# Hindi/Urdu: to bathe - with or without 'ne'



## amiramir

Hello,

I am confused about whether nahaa liya takes 'ne' or not. I seem to have heard it both ways, but I'm probably wrong.

Usne nahaa liya
Vo nahaa liya

Second, if we don't use lena, and just simply decline 'nahaana,' does that change anything about your 'ne' usage?

Usne nahaaya
Vo nahaaya

Thank you very much.


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## Wolverine9

Hello,

I think both ways are fine, depending on the style of sentence, but a native speaker will have to confirm.


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## nizamuddin

vo nahaa liya .......... vo nahaaya ......... is right sentences


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## amiramir

Thank you very much to you both.


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## Dib

Is "us ne nahaa liyaa" not acceptable? That's what I say usually.


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## littlepond

No, Dib jii, it is not acceptable: either "voh nahaa liyaa" or "us ne snaan kar liyaa".


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## Englishmypassion

Dib said:


> Is "us ne nahaa liyaa" not acceptable? That's what I say usually.



That's correct and more natural _Hindi. 'Vo nahaa liya'_ is not standard or good Hindi, but Bihari/... Hindi.


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## littlepond

^ I am sorry, Englishmypassion jii, but it is the first time that I am ever hearing "us ne nahaa liyaa", and for me that is only very 'Punjabi Hindi/Urdu', not standard Hindi at all. And I am not from Bihar and have not many friends from there, so you can keep the Bihar angle away.


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## Englishmypassion

"Usne nahaa liya hai" is standard Hindi, not Punjabi Hindi/Urdu. Your answer has kind of shocked me, littlepond ji. People in Bihar use "wo" instead of "usne", but there may be other areas (the language of eastern UP also has Bihari influence as it close to Bihar) also where people speak like that, that's why I left a blank space for the names of such dialects/ areas after the oblique.
I think @mundiya ji will be the best person to tell me whether my sentence is Punjabi Hindi, and not standard Hindi. I am sure my sentence is standard Hindi.


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## Dib

Interesting! Seems like there is (passionate) disagreement here. Thanks to both of you for you replies, and I eagerly wait to see if we reach any agreement in the end.


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## mundiya

littlepond said:


> ^ I am sorry, Englishmypassion jii, but it is the first time that I am ever hearing "us ne nahaa liyaa", and for me that is only very 'Punjabi Hindi/Urdu', not standard Hindi at all. And I am not from Bihar and have not many friends from there, so you can keep the Bihar angle away.



Since when do you care about standard usage, littlepond jii? 

But you're correct about "vo (vah) nahaayaa" etc. being the standard form.  "usne nahaayaa" etc. is a colloquial distortion (like "aap ho" for example), but it's not confined to the Punjabi community as you can see from Emp jii's usage.


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## Dib

mundiya said:


> But you're correct about "vo (vah) nahaayaa" etc. being the standard form.  "usne nahaayaa" etc. is a colloquial distortion (like "aap ho" for example), but it's not confined to the Punjabi community as you can see from Emp jii's usage.


 
Actually, the bone of contention was whether "us-ne nahaa liyaa" is acceptable. I think , we all agree that *"us-ne nahaayaa" is not possible.


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## Englishmypassion

I found "Savere uthkar usne jald naha liya" in the Hindi storybook linked to below on page 411. Yet, if mundiya ji says it's non-standard, it must be. I then guess it's the verb "nahana" being  an intransitive verb that makes "usne" as the subject non-standard here. But I never thought about it in terms of transitive and intransitive but just took it as I heard it spoken, and probably found it written: please don't aske me where. Thanks a lot, mundiya ji and little pond ji. 
https://books.google.co.in/books?id...xmOCh0oyQSm#v=onepage&q=उसने नहा लिया&f=false


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## mundiya

Dib babu, whether it's nahaayaa or nahaa liyaa, the same reasoning applies.

Having said that, I should reformulate my answer.  My initial premise was based on the general rule that ergativity is incorrect in the past perfect tense of intransitive verbs.  However, there are some exceptions.  It's  optional in these cases.  Here is what Ramrajpal Dwivedi says in Hindi Vyakaran: Paribhashik Shabdkosh ...

_"khaaNs, chhiiNk, nahaa aadi bhuut-kaal akarmak kriyaaoN ke saath ne-prayog miltaa hai - Shashaank ne khaaNsaa, NishThaa ne chhiiNkaa, maiNne nahaa liyaa hai. vikalp se inheN ne-rahit bhii bolaa jaataa hai."_


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## Englishmypassion

Thank you very much for providing the evidence, mundiya ji. Then I wasn't wrong in saying that 'Maine naha liya hai' is correct. That's why I trust you so much: I knew you must have or would come up with some solid evidence. A great job, dear.


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## Dib

mundiya said:


> Dib babu, whether it's nahaayaa or nahaa liyaa, the same reasoning applies.



Well, not necessarily. I mean, it clearly does for you, but I doubt Emp-jii's native speech pattern would conform to that. The reason of divergence is presumably the fact that "liyaa" - as a principal verb - takes ergative alignment, while "nahaayaa" normally wouldn't (the quote from Dwivedi's is _probably_ not decisive here, since he only gives "nahaa liyaa" in examples).

In any case, I suppose we can now agree that both "wo nahaa liyaa" and "us-ne nahaa liyaa" are fine. Maybe there are some regional preferences or something. Thanks a lot to everyone involved in the discussion and especially to amiramir for starting the thread in the first place.


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## flamboyant lad

I'm a Delhiite & I use this phrase a lot.

Trust me! *main naha liya, yaar! *& I'm not taking a bath again. Clear? (In winter, a lot of us tell this lie)


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## littlepond

mundiya said:


> Since when do you care about standard usage, littlepond jii?



I do care about standard usage, mundiya jii  but standards are defined for me by how people talk, not by what dictionaries say (of course, I am not talking of historical standards here). That is why "us ne nahayaa/us ne nahaa liyaa" is very non-standard for me, as I have never heard non-Punjabi Hindi speakers to say this so far. It seems that it may be a bit more prevalent as construction than I thought to be the case.


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## flamboyant lad

mundiya said:


> But you're correct about "vo (vah) nahaayaa" etc. being the standard form.



To me, "_vo_" is an informal word whereas "_vah_" is a formal word.
_vo nahaayaa_ (informal register)
_vah nahaayaa _(formal register)

_usne nahaa liyaa_ (I think it's incorrect)


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## flamboyant lad

*We can say:*
_vah nahaa liyaa_(past tense)
_vah har roj nahaataa hai_(present tense)
_vah kal naahaigaa_(future tense)
*
Can we say?:*
_usne nahaa liyaa_(past tense){It looks correct but actually it's not}
_usne har roj nahaataa hai_(present tense)
_usne kal naahaigaa_(future tense)
_
meraa paani kisne_ *use(an English word*)_ kiyaa_?
_tumhaaraa paani usne _*use(an English word)*_ kiyaa_(correct use of usne)

We use "_usne_" to answer what someone did(in the past)

_tumhaare paani se kisne nahaa liyaa_?
_tumhaare paani se kaon nahaa liyaa_?


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## hindiurdu

Interesting:
Main ne nahaa liyaa (correct)
Main ne nahaa chukaa (incorrect)
Main nahaa liyaa (correct)
Main nahaa chukaa (correct)
Main roz nahaataa huun (correct)
Main ne roz nahaataa huun (incorrect)
Main ne roz nahaayaa hai (correct)
Main ne roz nahaanaa hai (correct)

Very idiosyncratic seeming.

Tumhaare paani se kis ne nahaa liyaa (seems correct to me)
Tumhaare paani se kaun nahaa liyaa (seems incorrect to me, actually)


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## flamboyant lad

_tumhaare paani se kisne nahaa liyaa_?(It adds the surprising element. Here the emphasis is on that how could anyone use your water)
_tumhaare paani se kaon nahaa liyaa_?(It's a simple question where we just want to know who used your water to bathe)


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## hindiurdu

flamboyant lad said:


> _tumhaare paani se kisne nahaa liyaa_?(It adds the surprising element. Here the emphasis is on that how could anyone use your water)
> _tumhaare paani se kaon nahaa liyaa_?(It's a simple question where we just want to know who used your water to bathe)



Yes, I can see the logic.

Main nahaa liyaa. (correct)
Kaun nahaa liyaa. (correct)
Maine nahaa liyaa. (correct)
Kisne nahaa liyaa. (correct)

Now, "Tumhaare/Mere/Iske/Uske/Is/Us paani se" just becomes an add-on in the front of any of these.


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