# I wish I was ..



## claude23

Good evening,


May I say I wish I was there with you  ?

For instance : A friend of mine is on holiday in Tahiti or wherever mai i say i wish i was there with you? is it the correct tense ?

Thank you,

Claude.


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## mylam

That would be very common English. The correct sentence (using the subjunctive) is: "I wish I *were* there with you."


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## modgirl

claude23 said:
			
		

> May I say* I wish I was there with you ?*


 
Bonjour Claude,

You can say it, but it isn't good English. Were is the better choice.

*I wish I were there with you.*


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## jgmx

my first visit to the site and I already learned something today


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## modgirl

jgmx said:
			
		

> my first visit to the site and I already learned something today


 
Hi Jgmx, I'm always learning, too!


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## cuchuflete

Jgmx,

Please accept a warm welcome to the forums. We are hear to teach and to learn together. I look forward to your contributions, both as teacher and as student.

Un saludo,
Cuchuflete


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## JLanguage

I know lack of use of the subjunctive forms (when they differ from the regular ones) is very common here in the US, but what about abroad in the UK, Australia, etc?

EDIT: Should this be a new thread?


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## Pakal

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Jgmx,
> 
> Please accept a warm welcome to the forums. We are *hear* to teach and to learn together. I look forward to your contributions, both as teacher and as student.
> 
> Un saludo,
> Cuchuflete


 
Cuchuflete, isn't it *here*?
Saludos


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## JLanguage

Pakal said:
			
		

> Cuchuflete, isn't it *here*?
> Saludos


 
It is indeed - that is no doubt a typo.


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## Brioche

JLanguage said:
			
		

> I know lack of use of the subjunctive forms (when they differ from the regular ones) is very common here in the US, but what about abroad in the UK, Australia, etc?
> 
> EDIT: Should this be a new thread?


 
I would say that the situation in Australia sounds much the same as in America.

We also have the 'over correct' phenomenon - a bit like 'whom'.

If I were to blame, I'll pay for the damages. (should be 'was')

If I were in her position, I would have slapped his face. (should be 'had been')


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## JLanguage

Brioche said:
			
		

> I would say that the situation in Australia sounds much the same as in America.
> 
> We also have the 'over correct' phenomenon - a bit like 'whom'.
> 
> If I were to blame, I'll pay for the damages. (should be 'was')


Your first sentence is really confusing to me. It seems like it should be _If I am to responsible, I'll pay for the damages._


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## foxfirebrand

"If I was to blame, I'll pay for the damages."

Yeah, that one provokes a bit of a double-take, but it makes sense if the blame has not yet been established or is still under investigation.  "If it turns out it was my fault, I'll make good on it."

Otherwise, "if I _were_ to blame" would be followed by "_I'd_ pay for the damages."

But I'm not, as it turns out, so I won't.


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## modgirl

JLanguage said:
			
		

> Your first sentence is really confusing to me.


 
Actually, it's correct.

*If I was to blame* means maybe I am to blame but it is not certain that I am to blame.  But, if facts prove that I am to blame, then I'll pay for the damages.


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## modgirl

foxfirebrand said:
			
		

> it makes sense if the blame has not yet been established or is still under investigation. "If it turns out it was my fault, I'll make good on it."
> 
> Otherwise, "if I _were_ to blame" would be followed by "_I'd_ pay for the damages."
> 
> But I'm not, as it turns out, so I won't.


 
I didn't see your response when I was writing mine! However, I think your explanation is clearer.


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## jgmx

I appreciate the warm welcome, thanks guys.


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## E-J

Just to confirm - it's the same in the UK. 'I wish I was there with you' is commonly heard, but the officially correct version is 'I wish I were there with you'.


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## panjandrum

Backing E-J on UK usage.
The "correct" version is fading out, but not yet to the extent that it causes problems for "were"-users.
I noticed an "If I were going...." from 5-year-old WMPG the other day.
I wonder where she got that from


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## Mei

Hi, 

There is a song titled "Wishing I was there with you" It would have the same meaning, right?

I think I wrote a thread about it.... 

Mei


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## Isotta

modgirl said:
			
		

> Actually, it's correct.
> 
> *If I was to blame* means maybe I am to blame but it is not certain that I am to blame. But, if facts prove that I am to blame, then I'll pay for the damages.


 
Would it not then be an _if_ present/future clause? 

If I _am_ to blame, I'll pay for the damages.

Incidentally, I just noticed what a curious construction "[form of 'be'] to blame" is.

Isotta.


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## modgirl

Isotta said:
			
		

> Would it not then be an _if_ present/future clause?
> 
> If I _am_ to blame, I'll pay for the damages.


 
Very sharp eye!  I think you're right. 


A past tense could be used for this sentence, however:  

*If I was rude, then I apologize*.

The act of (possibly) being rude occurred in the past.


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## foxfirebrand

Isotta said:
			
		

> Would it not then be an _if_ present/future clause?
> 
> If I _am_ to blame, I'll pay for the damages.
> 
> Incidentally, I just noticed what a curious construction "[form of 'be'] to blame" is.
> 
> Isotta.


 
No, I think both constructions are right.  You were to blame when you did the blameworthy thing-- the whys and wherefores of it simply hadn't been sorted out yet.  Blame doesn't come into being simply because we figure out who to assign it to-- it's incurred with the act.

Yes, to be to blame-- odd, that.  How did I come to be to blame?  To wit...


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## modgirl

foxfirebrand said:
			
		

> You were to blame when you did the blameworthy thing-- the whys and wherefores of it simply hadn't been sorted out yet. Blame doesn't come into being simply because we figure out who to assign it to-- it's incurred with the act.


 
I have been pondering that situation ever since I replied.  I think what you wrote:  Blame doesn't come into being simply because we figure out who to assign it to-- it's incurred with the act explains it very clearly.  Thank you.


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## LQZ

Dear all, 

Could you tell me whether *were *or _*was*_ should be used in the following sentence?

I wish my English were/was better.


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## mylam

"were" is correct, although both are commonly used.


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## LQZ

mylam said:


> "were" is correct, although both are commonly used.


Thank you, mylam. 
Is *was *used colloquially, while_* were*_ is used formally?


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## mylam

Not really... Those who are well-educated and care, or who read a lot, use "were". But most younger people don't know the difference and generally use "was". (At least in my experience!)


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## LQZ

mylam said:


> Not really... Those who are well-educated and care, or who read a lot, use "were". But most younger people don't know the difference and generally use "was". (At least in my experience!)


 Thank you so much, mylam. I've got it.


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## Thomas Tompion

In BE we distinguish between _I wish I was_ and _I wish I were_. Several AE members have said that _I wish I was_ was a sort of colloquial cousin of the correct _I wish I were_. This is not the case in BE where _I wish I was_ has a function in correct educated speech, in distinction to _I wish I were_.

In BE _I wish I were_ is suitable for conditions which are not met and could not be met.

_I wish I was_ is suitable for conditions which might be met.

I could never be you, so we must always say if _I were you_, and never if _I was you_.

But I might go to the opera next week, so if someone said they were going to the opera next week, it would be entirely correct for me to say _I wish I was_. If, in this second case, you say _I wish I were_, you are suggesting that the possibility is closed.

If the AE members who have said that _I wish I was_ is always 'incorrect' 'uneducated' speech are right, then AE, it seems to me, lacks this way of shading the meaning in such statements. When I last looked, several authoritative AE sources suggested that educated AE did indeed retain the distinction.


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## LQZ

Thank you, Thomas, for your detailed interpretation. 

I have one more question: 

I wish I was. 
I wish to go.

Do they have the same meaning in your context?


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## wonderwhy

LQZ said:


> Dear all,
> 
> Could you tell me whether *were *or _*was*_ should be used in the following sentence?
> 
> I wish my English were/was better.



Both are correct, LQZ, both are fully grammatical and both are in common use. The only difference is that 'were' is often used in more formal circumstances.


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## wonderwhy

claude23 said:


> Good evening,
> 
> 
> May I say I wish I was there with you  ?
> 
> For instance : A friend of mine is on holiday in Tahiti or wherever mai i say i wish i was there with you? is it the correct tense ?
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Claude.



Sure you can, Claude. It's perfectly grammatical.


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## koniecswiata

In BE we distinguish between _I wish I was_ and _I wish I were_. Several AE members have said that _I wish I was_ was a sort of colloquial cousin of the correct _I wish I were_. This is not the case in BE where _I wish I was_ has a function in correct educated speech, in distinction to _I wish I were_.

In BE _I wish I were_ is suitable for conditions which are not met and could not be met.

_I wish I was_ is suitable for conditions which might be met.

I could never be you, so we must always say if _I were you_, and never if _I was you_.

But I might go to the opera next week, so if someone said they were going to the opera next week, it would be entirely correct for me to say _I wish I was_. If, in this second case, you say _I wish I were_, you are suggesting that the possibility is closed.

If the AE members who have said that _I wish I was_ is always 'incorrect' 'uneducated' speech are right, then AE, it seems to me, lacks this way of shading the meaning in such statements. When I last looked, several authoritative AE sources suggested that educated AE did indeed retain the distinction. 

That's fascinating!  Yes, American English does not seem to posess this distinction, where conservative speakers consider "I wish I was..." to always be wrong.  Then again, "Standard Good American English" (as it is perceived) is a conservative creature. 
Incidentally, the Cambridge Tests of English will not punish you for using "if I was"--they consider it to be acceptable English.


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## koniecswiata

Sorry about the previous post, I meant to quote Thomas Tompion!!!!!!


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## Thomas Tompion

LQZ said:


> Thank you, Thomas, for your detailed interpretation.
> 
> I have one more question:
> 
> I wish I was.
> I wish to go.
> 
> Do they have the same meaning in your context?


Hello LQZ, 

If we are talking about the case of the person going to the opera, then_ I wish I was_ is short for _I wish I was going to the opera_, as the other person has just said they are.

_I wish to go_ is just a bald statement of a desire to go. It's the sort of thing a King or an ill-tempered child with formal manners might say. _I wish to go_ suggests that the possibility of going is entirely open, and that this expression of a wish will be acted upon, that courtiers or parents will rush to buy tickets and book taxis.

_I wish I was_ in contrast sounds defeatist and wistful, as though, while it would be possible for me to go, I am not actually likely to. It's often a statement of mild envy - I wish I could have the experience you are going to have.


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## Loob

Thomas Tompion said:


> Several AE members have said that _I wish I was_ was a sort of colloquial cousin of the correct _I wish I were_. This is not the case in BE


A teensy over-generalisation, TT....
The distinction you describe as AmE is _exactly _the distinction I draw

I agree, though, that both _I wish I was_ and _I wish I were_ are 'correct'.


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## Thomas Tompion

Loob said:


> A teensy over-generalisation, TT....
> The distinction you describe as AmE is _exactly _the distinction I draw
> 
> I agree, though, that both _I wish I was_ and _I wish I were_ are 'correct'.


You know I've forgotten which of us is supposed to be heterodox about this (imagine a mooning smiley).


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## mylam

Thomas Tompion said:


> In BE we distinguish between _I wish I was_ and _I wish I were_. Several AE members have said that _I wish I was_ was a sort of colloquial cousin of the correct _I wish I were_. This is not the case in BE where _I wish I was_ has a function in correct educated speech, in distinction to _I wish I were_.
> 
> In BE _I wish I were_ is suitable for conditions which are not met and could not be met.
> 
> _I wish I was_ is suitable for conditions which might be met.
> 
> I could never be you, so we must always say if _I were you_, and never if _I was you_.
> 
> But I might go to the opera next week, so if someone said they were going to the opera next week, it would be entirely correct for me to say _I wish I was_. If, in this second case, you say _I wish I were_, you are suggesting that the possibility is closed.
> 
> If the AE members who have said that _I wish I was_ is always 'incorrect' 'uneducated' speech are right, then AE, it seems to me, lacks this way of shading the meaning in such statements. When I last looked, several authoritative AE sources suggested that educated AE did indeed retain the distinction.


 
I do understand (and use) the distinction that you mentioned above as belonging to BE English, although I didn't think about it until you pointed it out. In the question asked, "I wish my English were better" is the correct option, unless you believe yourself no longer capable of learning. 

Thanks for mentioning that distinction!


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## wonderwhy

Thomas Tompion said:


> In BE we distinguish between _I wish I was_ and _I wish I were_. Several AE members have said that _I wish I was_ was a sort of colloquial cousin of the correct _I wish I were_. This is not the case in BE where _I wish I was_ has a function in correct educated speech, in distinction to _I wish I were_.
> 
> In BE _I wish I were_ is suitable for conditions which are not met and could not be met.
> 
> _I wish I was_ is suitable for conditions which might be met.
> 
> I could never be you, so we must always say if _I were you_, and never if _I was you_.



This isn't true, Thomas. 'was' in conditional clauses can express exactly the same degree of contrary to fact as 'were'. It's been doing so for over three hundred years. Educated speakers in all dialects of English use "If S was" for counterfactuals.



Thomas Tompion said:


> But I might go to the opera next week, so if someone said they were going to the opera next week, it would be entirely correct for me to say _I wish I was_. If, in this second case, you say _I wish I were_, you are suggesting that the possibility is closed.



'was' can be used to express a concession but in this case the degree of counterfactual is, at the moment of speaking identical.

I wish I was going to the opera = I'm not going to the opera.

I wish I were going to the opera = I'm not going to the opera. 

Neither describes a situation where the possibility is permanently closed, save for those who hate opera and would never go. In that case, they'd never express either "I wish I was ..." or "I wish I were ...".

A: I wish I were going to the opera. 

B: I can't go. Here's my ticket.

A: *I'mmm* going to the opera.


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## Thomas Tompion

I'm sorry about those equals signs; they were misleading. I should have said that this was the implication, not that they amounted to saying the same thing.

At the moment A first speaks, in WonderWhy's scenario, the implication is that he's convinced he's not going - I'm not willing to consider the possibility of his being disingenuous, because if he was, then the disingenuousness would lie in his wanting to give that impression.

I would be sorry to see people tell beginners that _'If I was you'_ is a correct way of speech.


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## wonderwhy

Thomas Tompion said:


> I'm sorry about those equals signs; they were misleading. I should have said that this was the implication, not that they amounted to saying the same thing.
> 
> At the moment A first speaks, in WonderWhy's scenario, the implication is that he's convinced he's not going - I'm not willing to consider the possibility of his being disingenuous, because if he was, then the disingenuousness would lie in his wanting to give that impression.



Disingenuous aside, there could be many reasons why the speaker figures he can't go to the opera, so _I wish I were_ isn't just for things that are clearly counterfactual.

_I'm in the computer room. I wish I *were* in the kitchen eating a roast beef sandwich._

This situation clearly can/could be met but it is a contrary to fact nevertheless; I'm now not in the kitchen nor am I eating a roast beef sandwich.

'was' could easily substitute for 'were';

_I'm in the computer room. I wish I *was* in the kitchen eating a roast beef sandwich._




Thomas Tompion said:


> I would be sorry to see people tell beginners that _'If I was you'_ is a correct way of speech.



I can't imagine why, Thomas. It been that way for over 300 years. Every subjunctive form that left has at least one other way to say the same thing. There no subjunctive form for the present counterfactual;

If I live*d* in France, I would drink a lot of wine.

If I *grew* more vegetables in my garden I could give them to the Salvation Army.

All modern grammars tell people that there's no problem using 'was' for contrary to fact situations. They do offer the caveat that it is not as formal as 'were'.



> It isn't actually the subjunctive. ... The Cambridge Grammar calls the "were" form the irrealis form. It is surviving robustly in expressions like "if I were you", but even there *it has a universally accepted alternate* "if I was you", and there is no semantic distinction there to preserve.
> 
> http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001192.html



[emphasis is mine]


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## mylam

"If I was you" just sounds wrong to my ears! About the only place I've heard it is from my 90-year-old grew-up-on-the-farm grandma (who I love dearly), who also says "I seen", which I hope nobody is advocating!


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## Thomas Tompion

> Quote: Originally Posted by *Thomas Tompion*
> I would be sorry to see people tell beginners that _'If I was you'_ is a correct way of speech.
> 
> 
> 
> I can't imagine why, Thomas.
Click to expand...

The reason is that it would, in my view, be grossly misleading, and we aren't here to grossly mislead.

Thank you for providing that link. I'm not at all interested in the names grammarians give things. There has been plenty of evidence on the forum down the years that your author's view that "_if I was you"_ is "_universally accepted"_ is not true.


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## panjandrum

Advice has been offered.
There are at least two perspectives, as usual.
Let's not spend more time arguing the perspectives.
Thread closed.


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## Shala Salazar

jgmx said:


> my first visit to the site and I already learned something today



Hello jgmx! I too have learned something from my first visit. I've been wrestling wit this problem for a while until I got the bright idea to look it up!


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