# Urdu: Oblique form for words ending with -ah ـہ



## Abu Talha

Hello,

If a word ends with -ah, how is it supposed to be written and pronounced in oblique form. For example
اس واقعہ کو ...
or
اس واقعے کو ...
If it is the former, how would it be pronounced?

Also, does this change if the word is a name or proper noun? I think Ghalib has a verse that goes کعبے کس منہ سے جاؤ گے غالب but is this standard? To me it sounds somewhat informal (which would be well within Ghalib's range). For a (male) person's name it would sound highly informal or very familiar. Is that so?

Perhaps also related is if an old man is referred to incidentally as a بابا in the third person versus someone called بابا as a title. Would you say بابے in the oblique form for the former?

EDIT: I just remembered that بچہ is always written بچے in the oblique form. But sometimes I see words that are more obviously borrowed written in the same way whether oblique or not. 

Thanks.


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## Qureshpor

daee said:


> Hello,
> 
> If a word ends with -ah, how is it supposed to be written and pronounced in oblique form. For example
> اس واقعہ کو ...
> or
> اس واقعے کو ...
> If it is the former, how would it be pronounced?
> 
> Also, does this change if the word is a name or proper noun? I think Ghalib has a verse that goes کعبے کس منہ سے جاؤ گے غالب but is this standard? To me it sounds somewhat informal (which would be well within Ghalib's range). For a (male) person's name it would sound highly informal or very familiar. Is that so?
> 
> Perhaps also related is if an old man is referred to incidentally as a بابا in the third person versus someone called بابا as a title. Would you say بابے in the oblique form for the former?
> 
> EDIT: I just remembered that بچہ is always written بچے in the oblique form. But sometimes I see words that are more obviously borrowed written in the same way whether oblique or not.
> 
> Thanks.




This is how I understand it.

Words of Persian and Arabic origins ending in -ah (and also some words from khaRii bolii written with an -ah ending) are pronounced as -e in the oblique case even if they are written as -ah in the oblique on occasions. My personal view is that they should always be written as -e when declined. I have a "theory" as to why they are not always written with an -e but that is for later.

baabaa is never declined (in Urdu at least). It is one of those words that form are a seperate category, ending in -aa (e.g. "chachaa", "raajaa") but never declined in the oblique singular. There are always exceptions to the rule of course. ek daf3ah, do daf3ah; vaalidah (mother).


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## BP.

QURESHPOR said:


> ...
> baabaa is never declined (in Urdu at least). It is one of those words that form are a seperate category, ending in -aa (e.g. "chachaa", "raajaa") but never declined in the oblique singular. ...


Would you decline مجرا into مجرے in an example such as: اپنی تعلیم کے مجرا کے لئے اسے جز وقتی نوکری کی تلاش ہے۔.


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## Qureshpor

daee said:


> Hello,
> 
> If a word ends with -ah, how is it supposed to be written and pronounced in oblique form. For example
> اس واقعہ کو ...
> or
> اس واقعے کو ...
> If it is the former, how would it be pronounced?
> 
> Also, does this change if the word is a name or proper noun? I think Ghalib has a verse that goes کعبے کس منہ سے جاؤ گے غالب but is this standard? To me it sounds somewhat informal (which would be well within Ghalib's range). For a (male) person's name it would sound highly informal or very familiar. Is that so?
> 
> Perhaps also related is if an old man is referred to incidentally as a بابا in the third person versus someone called بابا as a title. Would you say بابے in the oblique form for the former?
> 
> EDIT: I just remembered that بچہ is always written بچے in the oblique form. But sometimes I see words that are more obviously borrowed written in the same way whether oblique or not.
> 
> Thanks.



daee SaaHib. I have three copies of Diivaan-i-Ghalib, two of them compiled by Ghulam Rasul Mihr. One of these has the word written as "ka3bah" and the other as "ka3be".

My understanding is that even in the "ka3bah" form, the word is read as "ka3be". A confirmation of this is a short piece of Urdu speech by Nehru, on Youtube being read out by an Urdu speaker.


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## Abu Talha

QURESHPOR said:


> daee SaaHib. I have three copies of Diivaan-i-Ghalib, two of them compiled by Ghulam Rasul Mihr. One of these has the word written as "ka3bah" and the other as "ka3be".
> 
> My understanding is that even in the "ka3bah" form, the word is read as "ka3be". A confirmation of this is a short piece of Urdu speech by Nehru, on Youtube being read out by an Urdu speaker.


Many thanks, Qureshpor Sahib, for your well researched answers. 

So, I gather that we should say ہم گوجرانوالے جا رہے ہیں  and not ہم گوجرانوالہ جا رہے ہیں ?

Do you think there is an implicit كو or كى طرف after the place name?


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## Qureshpor

daee said:


> Many thanks, Qureshpor Sahib, for your well researched answers.
> 
> So, I gather that we should say ہم گوجرانوالے جا رہے ہیں  and not ہم گوجرانوالہ جا رہے ہیں ?
> 
> Do you think there is an implicit كو or كى طرف after the place name?




daee SaaHib, I wish I could give you an explicit black and white answer for place names. Some seem to decline, others don't.

Kalkatte kaa jo zikr kiyaa tuu ne ham-nashiiN
ik tiir mere siine meN maaraa kih haa'e haa'e!
Ghalib

Makke gayaa, Madiine gayaa, Karbalaa gayaa
jaisaa gayaa thaa vaisaa hii chal phir ke aa gayaa
Miir

mu'azzan marHabaa bar-vaqt bolaa
terii aavaaz Makke aur Madiine
 Zauq.

This thread might be of interest to you.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt...._frm/thread/7849b7f40ea65456?tvc=1&q=kalkatte

Regarding the -e ending for place names, yes "ko/meN" is understood.


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## Abu Talha

Thanks Qureshpor Saahib. Yes, I can't seem to put my finger on it either. It seems to me like I've heard both declined and undeclined for many place names.



QURESHPOR said:


> My personal view is that they should always be written as -e when declined. I have a "theory" as to why they are not always written with an -e but that is for later.


By the way, if it is relevant, may I ask what your theory is on why, even when supposed to be declined, many words are often written undeclined?
Nevermind. I read some opinions in the link you posted. Quite interesting. 

So, to throw another curve ball, would you say that موقع too should be declined. I must say that I've always heard it declined just as if it had ended with _alif_, and I think I read, long ago, in S. Badr ul-Hasan's Sihhat-e Alfaaz that it should be.


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## Qureshpor

daee said:


> Many thanks, Qureshpor Sahib, for your well researched answers.
> 
> So, I gather that we should say ہم گوجرانوالے جا رہے ہیں  and not ہم گوجرانوالہ جا رہے ہیں ?
> 
> Do you think there is an implicit كو or كى طرف after the place name?




Just a thought. If "vaalaa" can be declined to "vaale", then I can't see why "GojraaN-vaalaa" should not be. I am not 100% certain but "GojraaN-vaalaa" might originally have stood for "GojraaN-vaalaa pinD/graaN etc" (GojraaN-vaalaa gaa'oN= GojroN kaa gaa'oN). In Punjab, we do have a number of places with "vaalaa" suffix. Also note "mahii-vaal" for (Ranjha, the "bhaiNs-vaalaa) and "Sahiwal".


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## Qureshpor

BelligerentPacifist said:


> Would you decline مجرا into مجرے in an example such as: اپنی تعلیم کے مجرا کے لئے اسے جز وقتی نوکری کی تلاش ہے۔.



I am assuming that the word you have in mind is "majraa". I can answer your question by asking a question! Would you decline "ma'vaa/maavaa (shelter), maljaa (refuge)?


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## Qureshpor

daee said:


> So, to throw another curve ball, would you say that موقع too should be declined. I must say that I've always heard it declined just as if it had ended with _alif_, and I think I read, long ago, in S. Badr ul-Hasan's Sihhat-e Alfaaz that it should be.




In theory, you as a learned person in the field of Arabic will know that the word is actually "mauqi3" in the same vazn as "mausim" and even "masjid". But it is, as far as Urdu is concerened, deemed to be "mauqa3", in the pattern of "mausam" (the usual pronunciation for "weather") and "maktab". So, in neither case should it be declined.

In practice, the a+3 usually ends up being pronounced as "mauqaa", perhaps not a 100% -aa but 73.29%. Now, if we are pronouncing it like an -aa, then logic dictates that it could/should be declined.

اس موقعے پر

ایک موقع، دو  موقعے

Let me say that I am undecided but it probably makes sense.

I assume that Mr. S. Badr ul-Hasan recommends it being declined for the same reasons that Ka3bah is declined to "Ka3be". Here, a+h is equated to -aa" as is the case in Urdu poetry. Now a question for you.

In Urdu poetry should a word like "ba3d" (after) be allowed to rhyme with "baad" (wind)?


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## BP.

QURESHPOR said:


> I am assuming that the word you have in mind is "majraa". I can answer your question by asking a question! Would you decline "ma'vaa/maavaa (shelter), maljaa (refuge)?


Yes that's the one.
I would expect some people to decline those words, and keep my ears open to both possibilities. That causes some doubt when you yourself have to say them...does a declined version come out naturally or does the other one?
By the way, many years ago, I was inclined to never decline the -ah words, and it took being attuned to laaRkaanee and then even laalah muusee.


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## Qureshpor

BelligerentPacifist said:


> Yes that's the one.
> I would expect some people to decline those words, and keep my ears open to both possibilities. That causes some doubt when you yourself have to say them...does a declined version come out naturally or does the other one?
> By the way, many years ago, I was inclined to never decline the -ah words, and it took being attuned to laaRkaanee and then even laalah muusee.



I don't believe "maavaa" and "maljaa" should be declined.

Regarding "Laalaa Muusaa", Punjabi speakers do change both parts!

"maiN Laale Muuse gayaa".

If you think this is "out of order", then what do you think of "3iisaa" being used as "3iisii" in Urdu poetry, by no less a person than Mirza Asadullah Khan Ghalib. I hasten to add that he is not in breach of the laws of prosody.


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## marrish

QURESHPOR said:


> I don't believe "maavaa" and "maljaa" should be declined.
> 
> Regarding *"Laalaa Muusaa", Punjabi speakers do change both parts!
> 
> "maiN Laale Muuse gayaa".
> *
> If you think this is "out of order", then what do you think of "3iisaa" being used as "3iisii" in Urdu poetry, by no less a person than Mirza Asadullah Khan Ghalib. I hasten to add that he is not in breach of the laws of prosody.


 Yes, and why not! In Punjabi, yes! Nice input. MaiN guujraanwaale giaaa (not g*o*jraN)


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## Faylasoof

Many of us don’t write *–ah* / *-aa* ending words in their oblique *– e* form even when we pronounce them so! Words like  موقع, واقعہ,  قلعہ are all written just like this even in the oblique form but are pronounced as oblique! One may call these implicit oblique forms as opposed to explicit oblique forms where one would change the *–ah* / *-aa* to *–e*. 

Here are some examples from Muhammad Husain Azad’s _darbaar-e-akbarii_ :
اس *موقع پر *کہ ہمایوں کا ہمائے روح دفعتہ پرواز کر گیا۔ اور اکبر کے سر پر ہمائے سلطنت نے سایہ ڈالا ....

اس نازک *موقع پر *اکبر کو بھی اور کچھ نہ بن آیا۔ کہا۔خیر ہمارے جاں نثار ننگے لڑیں تو ہم سے بھی نہیں ہو سکتا
 ...​ اسے بڑا خطر اس *واقعہ* *کے* سبب سے تھا جو شاہ طہما سپ کے بعد ایران میں گزرا تھا۔ جب شاہ کا انتقال ہوا تو سلطان حیدر اپنے امرا ورفقا کی حمایت سے تخت نشین ہو گیا۔....... اس نے شفقت کے پیام بھیج کر بھتیجے کو *قلعہ* *میں* بلایا۔​ 

I too feel that neither مجرا nor ملجا و  مأوی need be declined and can remain _majraa_, _maljaa_ and _maa'vaa_ in the oblique! 

So I would keep مجرا as BP SaaHIb has written:



BelligerentPacifist said:


> Would you decline مجرا into مجرے in an example such as: اپنی تعلیم کے *مجرا کے* لئے اسے جز وقتی نوکری کی تلاش ہے۔.


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## Abu Talha

Many thanks, everyone for your valuable comments.


QURESHPOR said:


> In theory, you as a learned person in the field of Arabic will know that the word is actually "mauqi3" in the same vazn as "mausim" and even "masjid". But it is, as far as Urdu is concerened, deemed to be "mauqa3", in the pattern of "mausam" (the usual pronunciation for "weather") and "maktab". So, in neither case should it be declined.
> 
> In practice, the a+3 usually ends up being pronounced as "mauqaa", perhaps not a 100% -aa but 73.29%. Now, if we are pronouncing it like an -aa, then logic dictates that it could/should be declined.
> 
> اس موقعے پر
> 
> ایک موقع، دو  موقعے
> 
> Let me say that I am undecided but it probably makes sense.
> 
> I assume that Mr. S. Badr ul-Hasan recommends it being declined for the same reasons that Ka3bah is declined to "Ka3be". Here, a+h is equated to -aa" as is the case in Urdu poetry.


I finally looked up what S. Badr ul-Hasan had to say about it. He says that اسماء مغرفہ should not be changed at all, and some اسماء نكره can be changed if they end with الف , ه , ع , i.e., they are غير سالم.
I'll quote some bits verbatim:

... اور آخری لفظ اگر الف ہو تو (ے) سے بدل جاتا ہے -
اگر آخر میں (ع) ہو تو (ع) سے ما قبل حرف پر زبر کی جگہ زیر تو ہو جاتا ہے مگر (ع) خود (ی)* سے نہیں بدلتی . جیسے . یہ موقع اچھا ہے. مکان موقِع کا ہے.
اگر اسم کے آخر میں (ہ) ہو تو اسم کے بعد کوئی حرفِ عامل آنے پر آخری حرف سے ما قبل حرف پر زبر کی جگہ زیر تو ہو ہی جاتی ہے . اس کے علاوہ (ہ) بھی یا تو (ے) سے بدل جاتی ہے یا (ہ) کے نیچے ہی زبر کی جگہ زیر لگا دیا جاتا ہے . جیسے . اب قصہ ختم کرو - قصے کو طول مت دو . یا . قصِہ کو طول مت دو . 

* I think he meant (ے)
He also excludes some words from this rule. 
1) Some names for relations بابا - نانا - ابّا - چچا - وغیرہ -
2) Some Arabic words  عطاء - خطا - حیا - جفا - وغیرہ -
3) Some Arabic words that end with a ى which is not pronounced اعلیٰ - ادنى - دعوى - مُعَمّی - مُرَبّى - وغیرہ -

EDIT: He also says:
جب عربی اسم کے آخر میں ہائے مختفی ہو اور (ہ) سے قبل (ع) ہو جو زبر کے ذریعہ سے (ہ) سے ملی ہو تو اسم کے بعد حرف عامل آنے پر اسم کی جمع بنانے پر (ع) پر زبر کی جگہ زیر ہو جاتا ہے . مثلا کل جمعہ ہے . جمعِہ کی نماز جامع مسجد میں پڑھوں گا . قلعہ بہت بڑا ہے . قلعِہ میں عجائب خانہ بھی ہے .



> Now a question for you.
> 
> In Urdu poetry should a word like "ba3d" (after) be allowed to rhyme with "baad" (wind)?


 I am embarrased that I have asked you many questions and you have answered knowledgeably each time. And you have asked me only one question, but I don't know the answer. I'm not sure what the poets would do, but I pronounce the two almost the same.


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## Qureshpor

> I finally looked up what S. Badr ul-Hasan had to say about it. He says that اسماء مغرفہ should not be changed at all, and some اسماء نكره can be changed if they end with الف , ه , ع , i.e., they are غير سالم.
> I'll quote some bits verbatim:



So, is he saying that Mir, Zauq and Ghalib were wrong when they said..

Makke gayaa, Madiine gayaa, Karbalaa gayaa
jaisaa gayaa thaa vaisaa hii chal phir ke aa gayaa
Miir

mu'azzan marHabaa bar-vaqt bolaa
terii aavaaz Makke aur Madiine
 Zauq.

Kalkatte kaa jo zikr kiyaa tuu ne ham-nashiiN
 ik tiir mere siine meN maaraa kih haa'e haa'e!
 Ghalib

You may have heard a nice song with the wording..

Aagre kaa laalaa aNgrezii dulhan laayaa re, Aagre kaa laalaa!


> I am embarrased that I have asked you many questions and you have  answered knowledgeably each time. And you have asked me only one  question, but I don't know the answer. I'm not sure what the poets would  do, but I pronounce the two almost the same.




There is no need for any embarrasment, daee SaaHib. This question was no "test" of any sort. I was merely asking for your opinion.


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## Abu Talha

QURESHPOR said:


> So, is he saying that Mir, Zauq and Ghalib were wrong when they said..


Perhaps it is an attempt at standardization?
Do you know of any verses from the poets who used these place names undeclined, where a common noun would be. To my ears, both are acceptable.


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## Qureshpor

Unless one is in possession of the poet's manuscript, it would be impossible to say if S/he wrote makkah or makke, kalkattah or kalkatte. This is because we don't know if the kaatib has made a true copy of the poet's manuscript or has infused his own style. Modern day printers are likely to be even less careful about these matters.

 Poets need to balance the "weight" of the syllables for prosodic reasons. Unfortunately, I have had no interest in this field and for this reason I know next to nothing about it. Having said this, I think "kalkattah" and "kalkatte" would be of equal weight.


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## Gop

My immediate problem is this:
Should I transcribe ज़र्रे में as ذرہ میں and read it as zarre meN
OR
transcribe it as ذرے میں and read it as zarre meN?


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## Qureshpor

You will find both options in printed works, Gop SaaHib. Always read it as "zarre meN".


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## Gop

Qureshpor said:


> Always read it as "zarre meN".


That’s very helpful, thanks.


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