# 成さねばならん



## M Mira

What does "成さねばならん" mean? I encountered the phrase when reading a manga, but the closest thing I can find is "為さねば成らぬ", whose meaning doesn't make sense in the context:


			
				Original text said:
			
		

> 軍団は維持するだけで莫大な物資を消費する
> 
> 今の帝国にこれ以上北方に割く体力は無い！
> 
> これを解決するにはゼートゥーアの作戦…
> 
> 鉄道網の拠点であるオース市の制圧と
> 
> その鉄道を利用しての
> 
> 北方方面の物流活性および策源地の確保を成さねばならん


The English translation translated it to "necessitates", which seems to be a confusion with "なければならん"


			
				English fan translation said:
			
		

> Armies consume huge amount of resources for maintenance alone.
> 
> The Empire can't afford to spare anything more for the North!
> 
> Zettour's strategy to deal with the situation
> 
> necessitates seizing the railroad junction city of Os,
> 
> and utilizing its rail network
> 
> to secure logistic flexibility and a base of operations.


I also compared it to the Chinese translation, which translated it to "就能夠", which roughly means "to enable, to make something possible", and the last two lines are something like "Using their rail network makes securing logistic flexibility possible." I think this might be a bad translation though, as 策源地 is omitted.

Which one of these is correct? Or neither?


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## frequency

M Mira said:


> the closest thing I can find is "為さねば成らぬ"


Yes, you're right. That 成さねばならん is interchangeable with 為さねば成らぬ.



> これを解決するにはゼートゥーアの作戦*…*


I think this is the cause of the trouble.

Assuming the sentence starts from 鉄道網の拠点・・, that says "We *need to/have to* 1) seize the Os city, 2) secure flexible logistics and 3) secure a base of operations". How do they want to secure them? "by utilizing its (=the city's) rail network".
Note that 鉄道網の拠点である is explaining how the city is.


> Which one of these is correct? Or neither?


You know, 「これを解決するにはゼートゥーアの作戦*…*」needs to be clear.


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## Yuuu

成さねばならん means "(we) need to accomplish."

So I think "necessitates" is not bad.


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## karlalou

M Mira said:


> What does "成さねばならん" mean? I encountered the phrase when reading a manga, but the closest thing I can find is "為さねば成らぬ", whose meaning doesn't make sense in the context:


"成さねばならん" and "為さねば成らぬ" both means 'must' or 'should' or 'have to', 
the same as しなければならない.

しなければならない／成さねばならん literally says "If you don't do it, it won't become", but this is the way for us to say 'should/must/have to'. In colloquial we often omit ならない and say しなきゃ, しなくちゃ, which you might be already familiar with.


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## M Mira

frequency said:


> Yes, you're right. That 成さねばならん is interchangeable with 為さねば成らぬ.





Yuuu said:


> 成さねばならん means "(we) need to accomplish."
> 
> So I think "necessitates" is not bad.





karlalou said:


> "成さねばならん" and "為さねば成らぬ" both means 'must' or 'should' or 'have to',
> the same as しなければならない.
> 
> しなければならない／成さねばならん literally says "If you don't do it, it won't become", but this is the way for us to say 'should/must/have to'. In colloquial we often omit ならない and say しなきゃ, しなくちゃ, which you might be already familiar with.


Oh, so they're indeed synonyms? When I googled it, all that showed up is that one quote by 上杉鷹山, where translating it to "must" doesn't work.


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## karlalou

Yes, they are synonyms.


M Mira said:


> "to enable, to make something possible", and the last two lines are something like "Using their rail network makes securing logistic flexibility possible."


It should be saying they have to do it to make something possible, or that something necessitates them to do it.


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## Yuuu

the difference between 成す(nasu) and 為す(nasu) is not clear. Some dictionaries say they are interchangeable, but I'm not sure if that's always the case.

So I like to think
成す(succeed, accomplish)
為す(do).

Thus
(1) 成さねばならん(成さねばならぬ) -> If (you) don't accomplish it, it's not good. -> (you) have to accomplish it.

(2) 為さねば成らぬ -> If (you) don't do it, it's not accomplished.

But again, this might be just my preference.

And I guess, when it comes to 上杉鷹山's case, it must be (2) in meaning.

(added : "in meaning")


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## SoLaTiDoberman

"なせばなる、なさねばならぬ、何事も。"
If you start anything, it will come to the end.
However, *if you do not start, it will never come to the end.*
In this context, *なさねばならぬ=しなければ（始めなければ）、成就しない*.

However, the OP's context, my interpretation is just:
*なさねばならぬ＝it must be done*. (しなければならない、されなければならない）

I'm not sure what 上杉鷹山’ｓ case means.


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## frequency

That ぬ can be ん by droppoing "U" (Nun). They are not synonyms.
The difference in the kanji has nothing to do with the meaning. Maybe neither 成さねば成らぬ nor 為さねば為らぬ would be good.
なさねばならん


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## Yuuu

Let's take one step further.

I said "Some dictionaries say they are interchangeable," but (an)other dictionary(ies?) says:

「成す」は“つくる。ある状態を作り出す”の意。
「為す」は“する。行う”の意。「為せば成る」
「生す」は“子を産む”の意。

(cf. *コトバンク*)
https://kotobank.jp/word/成す・為す-346793

(Again, I'm not sure if they're always interchangeable, and I'm not sure if they're always distinct, either)

And then, in 上杉鷹山's case,

(cf. ［伝国の杜］米沢市上杉博物館 )
http://www.denkoku-no-mori.yonezawa.yamagata.jp/image/022yozan/nasebanaru.jpg

To be honest, I can't read! I can't tell which (漢?)字 is written.

But anyway, I guess 
most people agree that this なさねばならぬ means "If (you) don't do it, it's not accomplished."

Considering these cases, I think "成す、為す、生す" sometimes show some inconsistency.

And I still believe the 成さねばならん in your question means "(We) must/should/have to do it.", "It must be done.", "(We) need to accomplish it." 

Well, now I started feeling like "it depends on context" can be the safest way.


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## karlalou

OK. I think I understand the Yuuu's concern, and maybe the OP's concern is also here.
I do differentiate 為 and 成.

The OP's 成す instead of 為す or simply なす or する must be deliberate.
It's trying to emphasize the need for the accomplishment, though when they do 確保 something, it means they have accomplished 確保; there's no real need for 成 over 為. The 確保を成さねばならん can be said that it just eloquently said 確保しなければならない.

I should have been aware that these synonyms mean "should *do */ must *do */ have to *do*", and the 'do' part can be any verb: 読まなければならない, 勉強せねばならぬ, 行かねばならない.


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## SoLaTiDoberman

ゼートゥーアの作戦（オース市の制圧＋北方方面の物流活性＋策源地の確保）must be done.


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## frequency

M Mira said:


> "為さねば成らぬ",


Now I've got what you were trying to say.
This is one part used in this set phrase 為せば成る. In your context, 成さねばならん looks better.


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## Flaminius

Yuuu said:


> To be honest, I can't read! I can't tell which (漢?)字 is written.


The same site offers a picture with better resolution.  I think it reads:
生せは生る成さねは生らぬ / 何事も生らぬは人の / 生さぬ生けり [with allomorphic kana's (怒, 家) transcribed by standard ones]
The document seems little concerned with orthography.  In fact selection of letters is mostly motivated by aesthetics in manuscripts that predate the esbalishment of orthography in the late 19th century.  I don't know how 生 and 成 are selected here but the point is that it does not help understand how なる with various meanings should be spelt in Modern Japanese.


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