# handwriting style



## Wobby

Hi! I've just started learning some Chinese characters, and was wondering: is it better to aim to write characters as the computer displays them, or as they would typically be handwritten? 

For instance, I've noticed that the 'kou3' radical is typically hand-written as an upside-down trapezium, but it is typically displayed on the computer as a square [ 口 ]. Is the square the intended shape, but it is just easier to draw it as an upside-down trapezium? Is that just what you end up with if you write quickly? Or is it purposeful/stylistic? Another example is occasionally, the shùgōu stroke tends to be handwritten leaning to the left, particularly in the dāo radical [ 刀 ], while it is shown on the computer as vertical. 'Yāo' [ 幺 ] has a SE pointing stroke in the top-left hand corner in computer format, but is horizontal when handwritten.

I guess that it _is_ important to retain the right type of stroke though, so using just a shù stroke instead of a shùgōu stroke for the right-hand side of the radical 'wéi' [ 囗 ] would be wrong? Or am I just reading too much into this, and the gōu doesn't matter? Just a quick character-specific one: huo3 [火] appears to have a tí or a pie3 stroke on the left-hand side in computer format, but I have seen it handwritten with what looks like a nà stroke. Does it not matter, is it one of the two, or is the computer representing something like a xiégōu stroke with a longer hook than downward part?

Is there anything wrong with writing characters in the way displayed on the computer? Or is this the intended way of writing, but one's handwriting style leads to the deviations? In which case, one should learn the way the computer shows, and then when you become proficient enough, you'll develop your own handwriting style? Apologies if this has already been asked before, and I hope it's not too long! Many thanks!


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## avlee

There're some principles for how to write Chinese characters well. The essence is merely one word PRACTISE. And the following webpage is good enough for any beginners to follow after: http://www.bluetec.com.cn/asp/mymandarin/bishun/bishun.htm
I did read some written fundamentals about order of strokes in Chinese characters. But I forgot most of them. I just remember 4 rules:1. First Left, then right; 2. First top, then mid and bottom; 3. horizontal strokes go first, vertical strokes next; 4. Outer strokes first, inner strokes next.
It's a bit tedious to tell people the order of strokes in every single character. Usually, Chinese teachers just simply tell the pupils to follow his/her actions and ask no more questions about it. Not sure if it's the proper way to educate, but it works more or less. Later on, I read the above rules on handwriting which solved most of my puzzles and gave me much confidence in writting characters decently.
Hope this contribution helps.


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## kareno999

Wobby said:


> Hi! I've just started learning some Chinese characters, and was wondering: is it better to aim to write characters as the computer displays them, or as they would typically be handwritten?
> 
> For instance, I've noticed that the 'kou3' radical is typically hand-written as an upside-down trapezium, but it is typically displayed on the computer as a square [ 口 ]. Is the square the intended shape, but it is just easier to draw it as an upside-down trapezium? Is that just what you end up with if you write quickly? Or is it purposeful/stylistic? Another example is occasionally, the shùgōu stroke tends to be handwritten leaning to the left, particularly in the dāo radical [ 刀 ], while it is shown on the computer as vertical. 'Yāo' [ 幺 ] has a SE pointing stroke in the top-left hand corner in computer format, but is horizontal when handwritten.
> 
> I guess that it _is_ important to retain the right type of stroke though, so using just a shù stroke instead of a shùgōu stroke for the right-hand side of the radical 'wéi' [ 囗 ] would be wrong? Or am I just reading too much into this, and the gōu doesn't matter? Just a quick character-specific one: huo3 [火] appears to have a tí or a pie3 stroke on the left-hand side in computer format, but I have seen it handwritten with what looks like a nà stroke. Does it not matter, is it one of the two, or is the computer representing something like a xiégōu stroke with a longer hook than downward part?
> 
> Is there anything wrong with writing characters in the way displayed on the computer? Or is this the intended way of writing, but one's handwriting style leads to the deviations? In which case, one should learn the way the computer shows, and then when you become proficient enough, you'll develop your own handwriting style? Apologies if this has already been asked before, and I hope it's not too long! Many thanks!


Hi Wobby, 
I think writing Chinese characters is the same as writing Latin alphabet. You can write stroke by stroke but as you become more proficient, mostly you begin to scratch. 
Kids are taught in school to write exactly like how the computer displays -stroke after stroke. But it's such a tedious and time-comsuming task that most pupils are, or at least i was, so eager to develop their own style of writing as soon as they feel grown-up enough. By "style of writing", I mean discarding the childish stroke-after-stroke thing, and to scrawl like a man. 
You have the freedom to write whichever way you want as long as people can still recognize your handwriting. We all grow up imitating how our teachers scratched on the blackboard who grew up imitating their teachers who ... (don't forget that only decades ago, Chinese was still written with brush, and here comes the question of calligraphy). 
One important issue you need to know: handwriting is not just a problem of handwriting, but also aesthetic. I'm not sure if non native speakers feel the same way about the beauty of handwritten characters as we do. It's all about balance, proportion, structure, etc, etc (I'm not an expert).

PS, I don't see it necessary to answer your specific questions about some certain components. Here is an example: I always write the component 丷 (as in 总) as a horizontal line, just like how some germans write their umlaut, e.g., ā instead of ä. I saw my German teacher wrote this way on the blackboard so I decided to do the same thing, 'cuz this makes me feel less stupid.


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## samanthalee

kareno999 said:


> Here is an example: I always write the component 丷 (as in 总) as a horizontal line,


No offence to kareno99, but in my part of the world, writing 丷 as — is a complete no-no.

My advice would be to aim to write the characters the way they are typically handwritten. I can think of 2 reasons to follow handwritten form.

1. The computer display mimics the handwritten form. If the computer-displayed characters differ from the handwritten form, it's in the interest of easier reading in small font size, and not for aesthetic reasons. There's no reason to choose the computer-displayed characters over the handwritten form. On the other hand, I would choose the handwritten form for aesthetic reasons.

2. These computer-displayed CJK characters are shared by Chinese, Japanese and Korean. You have to know that the same character written in Chinese may have a slightly different stroke in Japanese. For example，the computer displays _jin1_ 今 with a horizontal stroke in the middle. This is the Japanese character _ima_ 今, not the Chinese character _jin1_. The Chinese character _jin1_ should be written with a dot in the middle. 
If you follow the computer-displayed characters, you don't know for sure that you are writing Chinese.

Ｔｈｉｓ　ｉｓ Chinese　_jin1_:
人
丶
フ

This is Japanese _ima_:
人
 —
  フ


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## shivasprogeny

I would say learning to write them in the handwritten style will be better for you.  In some characters there are some pretty considerable differences.

Consider the shui radical (seen on the left side of this character).

In some texts it appears 注 but in others 注.  The latter is much closer to how you will usually see it written.

There is also the radical seen here on the left in 這 which doesn't really look at all like how it is drawn. Typically only one dot is drawn with a general vertical squiggle and then one horizontal curving stroke.  So in writing it's a 3 strok radical but in text it looks like 4 or 5.


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## kareno999

samanthalee said:


> No offence to kareno99, but in my part of the world, writing 丷 as — is a complete no-no.


Well, this is a personal thing. I do omit a lot of strokes when i write, but that's not an issue for anyone i know. Instead, my handwriting is always held as well-built and hot (Sorry for being so above myself )


samanthalee said:


> My advice would be to aim to write the characters the way they are typically handwritten. I can think of 2 reasons to follow handwritten form.
> 
> 1. The computer display mimics the handwritten form. If the computer-displayed characters differ from the handwritten form, it's in the interest of easier reading in small font size, and not for aesthetic reasons. There's no reason to choose the computer-displayed characters over the handwritten form. On the other hand, I would choose the handwritten form for aesthetic reasons.


What do you mean by "handwritten form"?
楷?行?草?
I can't think of any examples that the font 宋体 MS Song differs from how you are expected to write every day.
you can write in 楷体 which is the same as displayed in computers or cursive hand or somewhere in between. There is no bible telling you how you SHOULD write an character, but rather, as I said, it's a personal thing.
I believe beginners in Chinese should learn to write exactly like how it's printed on the textbook, which I believe, is what Wobby means by "computer format".
They can worry about how people write Chinese everyday after they are proficient enough. And when the time comes, it's quite a natural thing.


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## samanthalee

kareno999 said:


> What do you mean by "handwritten form"?
> 楷?行?草?


You are right； I have been ambiguous again. *sigh*



kareno999 said:


> I believe beginners in Chinese should learn to write exactly like how it's printed on the textbook, which I believe, is what Wobby means by "computer format".
> They can worry about how people write Chinese everyday after they are proficient enough. And when the time comes, it's quite a natural thing.



I get what you mean. But I think Wobby meant a different thing. I'm not sure how to explain this. Let me try using English as an example. In many beginner's English textbooks, the text is written in Times New Roman. For example, the following 3 alphabets: 


> a, g, T


Yet we are always taught to write these as: a g T.
If Wobby start learning to write Chinese as per textbook print, that'll be akin to us start learning to write English in Times New Roman. This is not wrong, of course. But it's not the best approach for a beginner.


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## kareno999

samanthalee said:


> You are right； I have been ambiguous again. *sigh*
> 
> 
> 
> I get what you mean. But I think Wobby meant a different thing. I'm not sure how to explain this. Let me try using English as an example. In many beginner's English textbooks, the text is written in Times New Roman. For example, the following 3 alphabets:
> Yet we are always taught to write these as: a g T.
> If Wobby start learning to write Chinese as per textbook print, that'll be akin to us start learning to write English in Times New Roman. This is not wrong, of course. But it's not the best approach for a beginner.


Ok, I get your point. 
Wobby's question might come from this perception. But this difference doesn't exist in Chinese, right? 
I don't remember I'm ever taught to write in other forms than "computer format" (Yes, to me, computer format = 楷书. I cannot think of any difference).  

Well, it will take me a while to explain all those different written forms of chinese characters to him. so i will just shut up here


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## Wobby

Thanks for all the replies! They have all been very helpful! 

From what everyone has said, I think I've decided to go with learning the 'handwriting style'. Not a particular person's handwriting, just the 'standard' way the shapes change when people handwrite them. 

Incidentally, I know a few people that actually do write in English 'Times New Roman' style, though most people don't. Of course, they'd have had to learn it themselves, for the writing style we are taught is as *samanthalee* described. It does look quite neat and formal, but takes longer to write - probably too much for anyone to bother! By the way, would writing computer-style Chinese be viewed upon in the same way (e.g. perfect squares, etc.), or would it be seen as silly? Then again, some might say writing in Times New Roman is a bit silly too, but I think it still looks quite good! 

p.s. I can't seem to spot any difference between the 2 characters [ shui 注 ] that *shivasprogeny* pointed out. They both looks like Unicode 6CE8 to me... I also notice that my computer doesn't seem to recognise character blocks such as 44D5 to 44D8 - do I need an upgrade or something? To be honest, it seems these characters are less used anyway, and I only notice I have characters missing when I look at the complete list of Chinese characters...


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## iangreen

you should learn "kai shu" or "regular script", it's handwritten.

the concept of writing the 'computer style' chinese would be bizarre... and it would be very ugly as opposed to the inherent aesthetic beauty of chinese script.


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## palomnik

As a foreigner who spent years studying Chinese and whose handwriting is not bad, if I do say so myself, I wish that I could contribute something more concrete to this discussion, but it's hard to say what it would be useful, especially since I'm not sure what you're doing in class right now. I assume you're in a class, but perhaps I'm wrong.

If I can say anything, it's this: I learned to write Chinese by copying my teachers' handwriting. I did not try to copy printed Chinese, and I think it would be a mistake to try.

In most Chinese neighborhoods you can purchase the little exercise books that Chinese children use, with large squares broken down into nine small squares. If you get a copy book with examples you can copy them and compare them. Don't attempt to eliminate or abbreviate strokes until you have a feel for how a character is supposed to look.

iangreen is right when he says that you have to appreciate the inherent aesthetic beauty of the script and you can't do this unless you learn the canons of writing it correctly, the first of which - front and center - is knowing the correct stroke order; if you don't follow it your characters will definitely be out of balance. There are other rules, however, which are difficult to impart without individual instruction, like when to press down on and when to let up on the pen, when to add a "hook" and when not to, etc.  In general, the idea is that one stroke should "flow" from the last as often as possible.

You might want to see if you can find the DeFrancis books on writing Chinese, which give handwritten examples of the simpler characters and build you up to more complex ones. In a lot of college programs writing is taught as a discipline in itself, separate from speaking, at least in the earlier stages of learning the language until you have a feel for the writing system.


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## shivasprogeny

Wobby said:


> p.s. I can't seem to spot any difference between the 2 characters [ shui 注 ] that *shivasprogeny* pointed out. They both looks like Unicode 6CE8 to me... I also notice that my computer doesn't seem to recognise character blocks such as 44D5 to 44D8 - do I need an upgrade or something? To be honest, it seems these characters are less used anyway, and I only notice I have characters missing when I look at the complete list of Chinese characters...



Take a look here: http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/1205/zhuav3.jpg

Most people write the 水 radical like the image on the left, but in a lot of text it looks like the image on the right.


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## desertrat

Interesting range of views here. 
As Karen099 pointed out, Chinese used to be written almost exclusively with a brush. And it should be noted that the typographic forms are usually based on brush-written styles. Many of the fine points of brush written strokes can only be hinted at with a pencil.


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## iangreen

Because they're writing with a pencil/pen...

It's really three dots, not 3 lines... the line that comes up from the last one is the "trail" which continues the next stroke.

I found an example of this on a calligraphy web site but this forum does not let me post URLs until i have 30 posts.

Anyway, if you find a good example, you'll see more clearly the three dots. In calligraphy, the dot is very important... unfortunately, you can't really do it with a pen or pencil.


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## kareno999

iangreen said:


> because they're writing with a pencil/pen...
> 
> it's really three dots, not 3 lines... the line that comes up from the last one is the "trail" which continues the next stroke.
> 
> I found an example of this on a calligraphy web site but this forum does not let me post URLs until i have 30 posts.
> 
> anyway, if you find a good example, you'll see more clearly the three dots. in calligraphy, the dot is very important... unfortunately, you can't really do it with a pen or pencil.


Well, define dots and lines


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## iangreen

kareno999 said:


> Well, define dots and lines



Well I know in Chinese calligraphy there is a distinct difference... 

And the way one makes the dot is important... a good calligraphers "xin" character will show it well: each dot is different, and the shape is really important to the beauty of the character

A line has a continuous stroke, but a dot is just a "touching"

But I'm sure you know better, being Chinese... I am just a westerner with only a few years experience


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## Zulis

iangreen said:


> Well I know in Chinese calligraphy there is a distinct difference...
> 
> And the way one makes the dot is important... a good calligraphers "xin" character will show it well: each dot is different, and the shape is really important to the beauty of the character
> 
> A line has a continuous stroke, but a dot is just a "touching"
> 
> But I'm sure you know better, being Chinese... I am just a westerner with only a few years experience



I don't think being a westerner has anything to do with appreciating artwork 

On topic, the textbooks I have used when I was small were all printer in computerized texts, my handwriting is no where close to those texts (mine is ugly) But it is always better to write the word out on paper. I would say it is like kids learning how to spell, just keep doing it until its automatic. 

Do watch out for the strokes sequence though, wrong stroke sequence will lead to frustration when looking up the dictionary.


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