# ما ذكرناه في المسألة المتقدمة



## Ibn Nacer

Hello,

1- I would like a translation of this phrase:


  والجواب عنه *ما* ذكرناه في المسألة المتقدمة، وتمام الكلام فيه مذكور في سورة النور في تفسير قوله :"...." *ٱ*​ ​  2 - I did not understand the use of "ه" the word "ذكرناه"...
3 - What is the meaning of "*ما*", Is it the negation or "what" ?


 thank you very much


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## Mahaodeh

The ه is ضمير متصل في محل نصب مفعول به because this verb needs a object and since the object has already been mentioned before you don't need to repeat it and a ضمير will do fine.

As for ما = اسم موصول بمعنى الذي so you can re-phrase the sentence: والجواب عنه الذي ذكرناه في المسألة المتقدمة


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## cherine

And you can rephrase it this way:
والجواب عنه الكلام الذي ذكرناه so the pronoun ـه refers to الكلام . A translation could be: and the answer to that [question] is what we've said before in the previous question.


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## nado92

Ibn Nacer said:


> Hello,
> 
> 1- I would like a translation of this phrase:
> 
> 
> والجواب عنه *ما* ذكرناه في المسألة المتقدمة، وتمام الكلام فيه مذكور في سورة النور في تفسير قوله :"...." *ٱ*​


*The answer is what we have  mentioned in the  previous matter , and the full thing is mentioned in Surat Al-Nur said in the interpretation of :"...." *



Ibn Nacer said:


> Hello,
> 
> ​  2 - I did not understand the use of "ه" the word "ذكرناه"...
> 
> ه here refers to the opinion which is said before​ 3 - What is the meaning of "*ما*", Is it the negation or "what" ?
> ما means what
> 
> thank you very much


clear?


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## Ibn Nacer

Mahaodeh said:


> The ه is ضمير متصل في محل نصب مفعول به because this verb needs a object and since the object has already been mentioned before you don't need to repeat it and a ضمير will do fine.
> 
> As for ما = اسم موصول بمعنى الذي so you can re-phrase the sentence: والجواب عنه الذي ذكرناه في المسألة المتقدمة



ok thank you,                     so I understand this:

والجواب *عنه* *ما* ذكرناه في المسألة المتقدمة​
..... the answer *to that *is *what* we mentioned in the previous question ...

But what does the pronoun "ه" ? Does it refer to "*ما*"? Why the redundancy?

If  "*ما*" means the negation then I understand this:


والجواب *عنه* *ما* ذكرناه في المسألة المتقدمة​
... the answer *to that*, we have *not* mentioned *it* in the previous question ...

Here I understand why the pronoun "ه" is used.  

and in this case, the pronoun "ه" of ذكرناه and "ه" of *عنه* does not refer to the same thing.

*I'm confused.* What is the meaning of the second part of the sentence?


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## clevermizo

Ibn Nacer said:


> But what does the pronoun "ه" ? Does it refer to "*ما*"? Why the redundancy?



Yes, it refers to the ما. I don't know how to explain this in Arabic grammatical terms, but it's the same as using الذي. If you said, "This is what we mentioned" you would say هذا هو الذي ذكرناه. It's the same "redundancy" you find when you say "This is the book I bought yesterday" هذا هو الكتاب الذي اشتريته أمس or "This is the restaurant at which we ate yesterday" هذا هو المطعم الذي أكلنا فيه أمس.

Basically, the pronoun for objects of verbs and prepositions is repeated across a relative clause. Literally you're saying "what we mentioned it" but this is not how we translate it into English.


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## Ibn Nacer

nado92 said:


> *The answer is what we have mentioned in the previous matter , and the full thing is mentioned in Surat Al-Nur said in the interpretation of :"...." *





nado92 said:


> clear?



thank you but I do not understand why the pronoun "ه" is used ?


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## nado92

Ibn Nacer said:


> thank you but I do not understand why the pronoun "ه" is used ?[
> 
> you are welcome.
> 
> ه refers to "_we _"
> 
> It means what we have mentioned.
> 
> clear or not yet?


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## Ibn Nacer

clevermizo said:


> Yes, it refers to the ما. I don't know how to explain this in Arabic grammatical terms, but it's the same as using الذي. If you said, "This is what we mentioned" you would say هذا هو الذي ذكرناه. It's the same "redundancy" you find when you say "This is the book I bought yesterday" هذا هو الكتاب الذي اشتريته أمس or "This is the restaurant at which we ate yesterday" هذا هو المطعم الذي أكلنا فيه أمس.
> 
> Basically, the pronoun for objects of verbs and prepositions is repeated across a relative clause. Literally you're saying "what we mentioned it" but this is not how we translate it into English.



thank you for good explication.

Is this a general rule?


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## clevermizo

Ibn Nacer said:


> thank you for good explication.
> 
> Is this a general rule?



Yep. Although I think with ما it's sometimes omitted.


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## Ibn Nacer

nado92 said:


> you are welcome.
> 
> ه refers to "_we _"
> 
> It means what we have mentioned.
> 
> clear or not yet?



*clevermizo *said it refers to the ما

what do you think


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## nado92

ه refers to "_we _"

It *isn*'t a relative clause at all.

It is like a subject pronoun here



Ibn Nacer said:


> nado92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> *clevermizo *said it refers to the ما
> 
> what do you think
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *he answer is what we have mentioned in the previous matter , and the full thing is mentioned in Surat Al-Nur said in the interpretation of :"...." *
> 
> *we " this is the pronoun ه *
> 
> here, it is a subject pronoun"we"
> clear?
Click to expand...


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## clevermizo

nado92 said:


> ه refers to "_we _"
> 
> It means what we have mentioned.
> 
> clear or not yet?



If it means "what we have mentioned" then it is clear that the ـه refers to ما (and ultimately الكلام as Cherine mentions above). It can't refer to "we" - "we" is already implicit in the verb with the suffix ـنا.



nado92 said:


> هrefers to "_we _"
> 
> It *isn*'t a relative clause at all.
> 
> It is like a subject pronoun here



I completely disagree with this. The ـه is an object pronoun. The word 'we' is simply not used because ذكرنا already means "we mentioned" which already includes the نا which is ضمير رفع متصل. The ـه is ضمير نصب.


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## Ibn Nacer

nado92 said:


> *he answer is what we have mentioned in the previous matter , and the full thing is mentioned in Surat Al-Nur said in the interpretation of :"...." *
> 
> *we " this is the pronoun ه *
> 
> here, it is a subject pronoun"we"
> clear?



you wrote in your previous message: "ه here refers to the opinion which is said before" ?

what is the difference between 

والجواب *عنه* *ما* ذكرناه في المسألة المتقدمة

and (without the pronoun)

والجواب *عنه* *ما* ذكرنا في المسألة المتقدمة​


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## cherine

I agree with Mizo.

The pronoun referring to "we" is نا in the verb ذكرنا , while the هـ refers to ما (=what).

P.S. I think that ما ذكرنا and ما ذكرناه are both correct. I understand that the pronoun may seem redundant to you, Ibn Nacer, but it's not in Arabic to put it this way. Try to see it as a clarification, rather than an unnecessary repetition.


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## nado92

*ok. look. the matter isn't so complex.*

At first forget all what said.

Now

والجواب *عنه* *ما* ذكرناه في المسألة المتقدمة
*ذكر فعل ماضي*
*نا الدالة علي الفاعلين في محل رفع فاعل*
*ه ضميير مبني في محل نصب مفعول به*
did you get that?



Ibn Nacer said:


> you wrote in your previous message: "ه here refers to the opinion which is said before" ?


*exactly*




Ibn Nacer said:


> you wrote in your previous message: "ه here refers to the opinion which is said before" ?
> 
> what is the difference between
> 
> والجواب *عنه* *ما* ذكرناه في المسألة المتقدمة
> 
> and (without the pronoun)
> 
> والجواب *عنه* *ما* ذكرنا في المسألة المتقدمة​


both are fine. they sound ok to me.



cherine said:


> I agree with Mizo.
> 
> The pronoun referring to "we" is نا in the verb ذكرنا , while the هـ refers to ما (=what).
> 
> P.S. I think that ما ذكرنا and ما ذكرناه are both correct. I understand that the pronoun may seem redundant to you, Ibn Nacer, but it's not in Arabic to put it this way. Try to see it as a clarification, rather than an unnecessary repetition.



do you agree "ه" means  :الذي"    ?
This is what he mentioned.
Agree?

*to sum up here is the conclusion:*
*"ه here refers to the opinion which is said before" *
but it doesn't mean الذي
if you cant understand it,just tell me and I 'll call a teacher of Arabic to explain it?


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## cherine

It doesn't mean الذي it *refers* to الذي. As we say in Arabic: الضمير يعود على الاسم الموصول.

What you said -and I don't agree with you- is that الضمير يعود على نحن and this is contradictory, because هـ is a ضمير مفرد while نحن refers to plural.


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## Ibn Nacer

clevermizo said:


> If it means "what we have mentioned" then it is clear that the ـه refers to ما (and ultimately الكلام as Cherine mentions above). It can't refer to "we" - "we" is already implicit in the verb with the suffix ـنا.
> 
> 
> I completely disagree with this. The ـه is an object pronoun. The word 'we' is simply not used because ذكرنا already means "we mentioned" which already includes the نا which is ضمير رفع متصل. The ـه is ضمير نصب.



This is what I understood, after I started to have doubts,
but now you have confirmed what I understood.


This question is more difficult than I thought ...



nado92 said:


> both are fine. they sound ok to me.


Thank you


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## nado92

cherine said:


> It doesn't mean الذي it *refers* to الذي. As we say in Arabic: الضمير يعود على الاسم الموصول.
> 
> What you said -and I don't agree with you- is that الضمير يعود على نحن and this is contradictory, because هـ is a ضمير مفرد while نحن refers to plural.


*  you can go back to my 'e3rab'?*



Ibn Nacer said:


> Thank you


My brother it is so easy and clear

try to read that again"
*"ه here refers to the opinion which is said before" *



clevermizo said:


> if it means "what we have mentioned" then it is clear that the ـه refers to ما (and ultimately الكلام as cherine mentions above). It can't refer to "we" - "we" is already implicit in the verb with the suffix ـنا.
> 
> 
> I completely disagree with this. The ـه is an object pronoun. The word 'we' is simply not used because ذكرنا already means "we mentioned" which already includes the نا which is ضمير رفع متصل. The ـه is ضمير نصب.


والجواب *عنه* *ما* ذكرناه في المسألة المتقدمة
*ذكر فعل ماضي*
*نا الدالة علي الفاعلين في محل رفع فاعل*
*ه ضميير مبني في محل نصب مفعول به*


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## clevermizo

nado92 said:


> *  you can go back to my 'e3rab'?*
> 
> 
> My brother it is so easy and clear
> 
> try to read that again"
> *"ه here refers to the opinion which is said before" *
> 
> 
> والجواب *عنه* *ما* ذكرناه في المسألة المتقدمة
> *ذكر فعل ماضي*
> *نا الدالة علي الفاعلين في محل رفع فاعل*
> *ه ضميير مبني في محل نصب مفعول به*



I agree with your analysis, thank you. I was confused when you said that ـه refers to نحن.


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## Xence

I agree with cherine's and Clever's explanations.
I would just add that the pronoun ـه in عنه and ذكرناه doesn't refer to the same thing.

Here's how I understand it. There is a question about some matter, and the author gives his answer. So he is saying: the answer about *it *(the question) is *what *we have mentioned in the previous question. (i.e: "*it*" refers to the first ـه and "*what*" refers to both ما  and the second ـه )

This second ـه , known as  ضمير العائد , is specific to relative clauses and can be dropped sometimes, whenever no confusion is possible. This is quite frequent in Quran. Just an example: أفَرَأَيْتُمُ الْمَاء الَّذِي تَشْرَبُونَ {الواقعة/68}‏ and not الذي تشربونه .

Hope this helps.


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## Ibn Nacer

cherine said:


> I agree with Mizo.
> 
> The pronoun referring to "we" is نا in the verb ذكرنا , while the هـ refers to ما (=what).
> 
> P.S. I think that ما ذكرنا and ما ذكرناه are both correct. I understand that the pronoun may seem redundant to you, Ibn Nacer, but it's not in Arabic to put it this way. Try to see it as a clarification, rather than an unnecessary repetition.


Merci,

Je vais écrire en français car c'est plus facile pour moi.

Si tu veux au début je me suis dit que "ما" était une particule de négation car comme cela la présence du pronom "ه" était justifié comme suit :


والجواب *عنه* *ما* ذكرناه في المسألة المتقدمة​
...*La réponse* *à cela*, nous *ne* *l*'avons *pas *mentionnée dans la question précédente...
...*the answer* *to that*, we have *not* mentioned *it* in the previous question ...

Donc ici je comprends pourquoi le pronom  "ه" a été utilisé (Here I understand why the pronoun "ه" is used). En effet dans ce cas, le pronom  "ه" se réfère donc à "*la réponse*" (in this case, the pronoun "ه" refers to "*the answer*") 

Est-ce possible que "ما" soit une particule de négation ?

********​ 

D'après le contexte, dans tous les cas, je comprends que le le pronom "ه" de ذكرناه et le pronom "ه" of *عنه* ne se réfèrent pas à la même chose, *est-ce correct *? (In all case, I understand that the pronoun "ه" of ذكرناه and the pronoun "ه" of *عنه* does not refer to the same thing).

Si tu me réponds,* fais le en anglais* afin que les autres puisse suivre.


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## Ibn Nacer

Xence said:


> Hope this helps.


*Thank you Xence.*



Xence said:


> I agree with cherine's and Clever's explanations.
> I would just add that the pronoun ـه in عنه and ذكرناه doesn't refer to the same thing.


yes it is also what I said but I was not sure, thank you for confirmation.




Xence said:


> Here's how I understand it. There is a question about some matter, and the author gives his answer. So he is saying: the answer about *it *(the question) is *what *we have mentioned in the previous question. (i.e: "*it*" refers to the first ـه and "*what*" refers to both ما  and the second ـه )



I want to be sure we agree, here's the context :

*Text 1** : **المسألة الثانية*
    t"....": والجواب عنه ما ذكرناه في* المسألة المتقدمة*، وتمام الكلام فيه مذكور في سورة النور في تفسير قوله *…**.Text 2** : **المسألة الثالثة*​ 
So I understand that:

1- The pronoun "ه" of ذكرناه refers to ما and الجواب is ما, (ie الجواب = ما ) is it correct ?
2 - the pronoun "ه" of عنه refers to *Text 2*.
3 - *المسألة المتقدمة* is *المسألة الثانية* so الجواب is mentioned in *Text 1*. 

​


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## Ibn Nacer

cherine said:


> And you can rephrase it this way:
> والجواب عنه الكلام الذي ذكرناه so the pronoun ـه refers to الكلام . A translation could be: and the answer to that [question] is what we've said before in the previous question.



Je ne comprends pas, pourrais tu m'expliquer ce tu comprends de la deuxième partie de la phrase ?

here's the context :

*Text 1** : **المسألة الثانية*
    t"aya of quran" : والجواب عنه ما ذكرناه في* المسألة المتقدمة*، وتمام الكلام فيه مذكور في سورة النور في تفسير قوله *…**.Text 2** : **المسألة الثالثة*​ 
So I understand that:

1- The pronoun "ه" of ذكرناه refers to ما and الجواب is ما, (ie الجواب = ما ) is it correct ?
2 - the pronoun "ه" of عنه refers to *Text 2*.
3 - *المسألة المتقدمة* is *المسألة الثانية* so الجواب is mentioned in *Text 1*. 

Ce que je comprend (mais j'en suis pas sûr) c'est donc que la réponse "الجواب" est mentionnée dans le *Text 1*.

Ensuite deux possibilités :

1- *Cette* réponse est aussi *entièrement* mentionnée dans le tafsir de "aya of quran" qui se trouve dans la sourat al noor.

2 - *un complément* à cette une réponse est mentionnée dans le tafsir de "aya of quran" qui se trouve dans la sourat al noor.

Qu'en penses-tu ?

Que signifie selon toi cette expression : وتمام الكلام فيه مذكور في

*Merci
*


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## Ansari84

Salaam Ibn Nacer,



> Est-ce possible que "ما" soit une particule de négation ?


I would say no, it is not a particle of negation. I've always thought of "ما" when it appears in this way, as being a shortened form of "ماذا" So perhaps if the sentence were to read, "الجواب عنه هو *ما*ذا ذكرناه في المسألة المتقدمة" I have no idea whether that would be grammatically correct or not, but at least it would reduce the chances that "ما" could be construed as a negative particle. 

Also, regarding the two possiblities you mentioned for the second part of the sentence:



> Ensuite deux possibilités :
> 
> 1- *Cette* réponse est aussi *entièrement* mentionnée dans le tafsir de "aya of quran" qui se trouve dans la sourat al noor.
> 
> 2 - *un complément* à cette une réponse est mentionnée dans le tafsir de "aya of quran" qui se trouve dans la sourat al noor.


I'd say that both are true to a certain extent. In the tafsir, the response does appear in its entirety - along with its surrounding context. So the full version, I guess. You might translate it as "The exact text in which it is mentioned may be found in..."


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## Xence

Ibn Nacer said:


> I want to be sure we agree, here's the context :
> 
> *Text 1** : **المسألة الثانية*
> t"....": والجواب عنه ما ذكرناه في* المسألة المتقدمة*، وتمام الكلام فيه مذكور في سورة النور في تفسير قوله *…**.Text 2** : **المسألة الثالثة*​
> So I understand that:
> 
> 1- The pronoun "ه" of ذكرناه refers to ما and الجواب is ما, (ie الجواب = ما ) is it correct ?
> 2 - the pronoun "ه" of عنه refers to *Text 2*.
> 3 - *المسألة المتقدمة* is *المسألة الثانية* so الجواب is mentioned in *Text 1*.
> 
> ​


Yes, I totally agree with this.
In fact, things could have been easier if the author had written:
والجواب عنه هو ما ذكرناه
i.e: الجواب = هو = ما
And, by the way, here ما  is اسم موصول and not نافية . If the author intended to use a negative form, he would rather have used لم :
والجواب عنه لم نذكره في المسألة المتقدمة


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## clevermizo

Ibn Nacer said:


> Est-ce possible que "ما" soit une particule de négation ?



Non, je ne crois pas qu'il soit ici le particule de négation. Je suis d'accord avec Xence qui a dit qu'il aurait été plus clair si l'auteur avait écrit "الجواب عنه هو ما ذكرناه" et donc, il ne serait pas possible l'interpréter comme particule négatif. 


Sorry for my hideous French.


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## Mahaodeh

cherine said:


> P.S. I think that ما ذكرنا and ما ذكرناه are both correct. I understand that the pronoun may seem redundant to you, Ibn Nacer, but it's not in Arabic to put it this way. Try to see it as a clarification, rather than an unnecessary repetition.


 
I disagree, ما ذكرنا is incomplete grammatically although it may be clear in terms of meaning. The verb ذكر is فعل متعد and accordingly MUST have an object for the sentence to be complete. The ه is obligatory to complete the sentence and make it جملة مفيدة.

It is like saying: محمدٌ نامَ, while it is clear that the subject يعود على محمد but it is NOT محمد; the i3raab is محمدٌ مبتدأ مرفوع - نَامَ فعل ماضي مبني على الفتح والفاعل ضمير مستتر تقديره هو والجملة الفعلية "نام" في محل رفع خبر; so there is infact an implicit pronoun for the subject. Similarly, you should say: هذا عصفورٌ رأيتُهُ, where the bird is NOT the object although the object refers to it, you MUST have an explicit pronoun as an object that refers to the bird. It's not correct to say هذا عصفورٌ رأيتُ, is it? It is possible, however, to say عصفورًا رأيتُ where the bird would be مفعول به مقدم.

The case of ما ذكرناه is the same. It just is not complete grammatically. If the whole sentence is والجواب عنه ما ذكرناه في المسألة المتقدمة then while the "meaning" of the object is implicit in the sentence, it is not expressed grammatically at all, لا مقدم ولا مؤخر, hence the pronoun ه must be used.

This is how I see it.


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## Ibn Nacer

thank you very much at all


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