# favaki



## uress

Iyi aksamlar!
What does favaki mean? I can't find it in the dictionaries. It seems to have a relation to fava beans but what is it actually?
Tesekkürler.


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## Gemmenita

İyi akşamlar, _uress_.

Do you mean *fevakih*? 

If so:

fevakih = Meyveler, yemişler.


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## uress

Selam.
I think this is not the one I need 
I really mean favaki. It must be a kind of bean I think. How do you call fava beans in Turkish? It could be this one but I m not sure about it on base what I saw in online dictionaries. But if it this it would be an easy word to remember 

I found an exemple of it here: Santorini (Thira) (Fava beans are not called fava in Greek )


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## Muttaki

Can you share a context if there is one? Because I am seeing things about parfumery when I write it down on Google. Apparently it is a scent. And the word in fact is _fevakih _/ فواكه as Gemmenita has pointed out. It is the plural form of the word _fakihe _/ فاكهە which means fruit.


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## uress

It's only a word, without context, and for sure favaki, as I told it already before.


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## Muttaki

The latinized versions of Turkish words have always been problematic so without knowing the original spelling I can't tell anything for sure. But on Google _favaki_ brings up again parfumery advertisements like "favaki kokusu". So, I believe the word is most probably فواكه.


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## Rallino

It's Fava + aki, a diminutive suffix in Greek. The next word _Baklavaki_ also follows the same pattern. And so does _suvlaki _in the same text. It's a commonly used suffix in Greek. The author is apparently using the local names for the foods. It has nothing to do with _fevakih_.


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## Muttaki

Rallino said:


> It's Fava + aki, a diminutive suffix in Greek. The next word _Baklavaki_ also follows the same pattern. And so does _suvlaki _in the same text. It's a commonly used suffix in Greek. The author is apparently using the local names for the foods. It has nothing to do with _fevakih_.


So it is a Greek word not Turkish then.


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## spiraxo

It should be Φαβακή.
http://www.ayurveda-hellas.gr/gr/el/products/agroktimata-nestora-favaki-500-gr


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## uress

The Greek word is fava... We don't really use favaki (with iota, fava-aki) the other word is with ita and quite an unknown word if it does exist at all and is not only a phantasy name. But still nobody told the Turkish name of fava beans. What I've found in a dictionary  is not sure.


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## RimeoftheAncientMariner

Hello .

Irrelated but there is an other TR word, " afaki " which translates to " needless and imaginary ".


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## themadprogramer

Turkish is funny like that,
For instance Rüzgar from persian (ruz+kar, day+ly) had several meanings of which one meant wind.

Somehow rüzgâr a word which is phonologically peculiar, where a long vowel is reduced to an ü among other things, came to only mean wind in Turkish.
(Ruz still exists in the lexicon but it is really rarely used)


There's also the subject of how we(the TDK that is) massacre phonology and semantics for the sake of "vowel harmony"
(I think lahana vs. lahano is the most depressing example where we've turned a singular word into the plural of its original language.)

I know you said you can't give any further context so I guess I'll leave it to Rallino or whoever to explain the proper origin in the greek forums.


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## Gemmenita

Muttaki said:


> So it is a Greek word not Turkish then.


  I agree with Muttaki.


uress said:


> But still nobody told the Turkish name of fava beans.



*Bakla*.

...


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## themadprogramer

Then why is there a seperate word (baklavaki) that sounds so very similar to our bakla?


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## Gemmenita

Ahmet Akkoç said:


> Then why is there a seperate word (baklavaki) that sounds so very similar to our bakla?



*Baklava* is a very sweet pastry.
*Bakla* is 'fava beans'


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## themadprogramer

*Μπακλαβάς appears to be baklava.*

*Sorry*


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## Gemmenita

Yes, of course:

Μπακλαβάς (in Greek)= baklava (in Turkish) = a very sweet pastry. (as I said)

Now, why did you tell this and why do you feel sorry? We are saying the same thing.


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## themadprogramer

I am saying baklavaki is not a synonym for favaki as far as I can tell from what rallino said.
And well it seems we adopted bakla in place of fava (which as far as I know entered Turkish through arabic?)

So uh... I can't get my greek keyboard to work so that I can type in a dictionary, could anyone mind translating "baklavaki" into Turkish? I might as well have posted a new thread for this but I guess it'd be better for people to understand by context...


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## Gemmenita

Got it!

Now, I have a latest news:
After a research, I got for example here that this Greek word (Μπακλαβάς) is pronunced *Baklavas *in Greek, the same as in Turkish! (but with a sound of 's' at the end which is not so much important for the moment in this discussion...)

Therefore, in both Turkish and Greek they say *baklava* for that sweet pastry!



Ahmet Akkoç said:


> could anyone mind translating "baklava*ki*" into Turkish?



Yes, me too, I thought of what this -aki adds to the meaning...

As Rallino said, if they are diminutive suffixes in Greek, so I think _favaki_ sould be a kind of food in small pieces ( I say food because in that context _favaki_ is in a list of foods) and _baklavaki_ should be baklava pastries in small pieces (as
baklava is already small or served in small pieces). I mean that this -aki could be related to the size or form of both.
So maybe we should not try to translate them and we should accopt them as they are and as two names as we say döner kebap, bifteck, steack,...!
But this is only my hypothesis. We can wait for other ideas too.


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## uress

Rüzgar, afaki 

Thanks for bakla!

Baklavaki = baklavas +aki, but we don't really use it too much.

Originally I didn't find the word "favaki" in the Santorini-site but I can't find it again as google dosn't give the same sites if you change the word order or anything in your input  And there there was no real context, just a list. And first I thought I could find it easily in a dictionary but then I found nothing. But I saw another site, too where it said just "favaki, favaki, favaki, vay, vay, vay".

And another question to fava/favaki, oh, no, 2:
Can you imagine that some Turkish people use the Greek world favaki even if it's not really used in Greek? 

And the other one: In some recipes I found the words fava and bakla together: "Fava (Bakla Ezmesi) Tarifi Yapılışı", "Kuru Bakla Favası", so: do you use the word fava in Turkish, too? Is it the same as bakla? Logically it shouldn't be otherwise you wouldn't use it together but what is it then? 

Oh, a third one  In the pictures for bakla I can see e.g. "Haşlanmış bakla"  and in the picture I can't see what we call fava in Greek but what we call koukia... Now I'm trying to find a picture of fava  See fava in Greek: Φάβα - Βικιπαίδεια Koukia: Κουκιά - Βικιπαίδεια. But in the biology koukia is the fava bean. But now i'm confused about the Turkish name(s), too because as it looks you don't use it only for the fava bean only, do you?


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## Muttaki

uress said:


> Can you imagine that some Turkish people use the Greek world favaki even if it's not really used in Greek?


I can't imagine.


uress said:


> In some recipes I found the words fava and bakla together: "Fava (Bakla Ezmesi) Tarifi Yapılışı", "Kuru Bakla Favası", so: do you use the word fava in Turkish, too? Is it the same as bakla?


I have never heard of the word _fava_ before this thread. Apparently it is used though rare but I hadn't heard.

Also, I have never thought of the relation between the words _baklava_ and _bakla_. Now I speculate of course but in Turkish mind it doesn't appear automatically. I am sure all my friends for instance would find it a new information if I tell this to them.


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## Muttaki

Ahmet Akkoç said:


> Turkish is funny like that,
> For instance Rüzgar from persian (ruz+kar, day+ly) had several meanings of which one meant wind.
> 
> Somehow rüzgâr a word which is phonologically peculiar, where a long vowel is reduced to an ü among other things, came to only mean wind in Turkish.


This is not strange at all. There must be millions of examples like this in many languages, not peciluar to Turkish.

Moreover, in Turkish we have the word _serbest_ for example. Both _ser_ and _best_ are Persian but _serbest_ doesn't exist in Persian language at all, let alone its other meanings like you said for _rüzgar_. Here is the discussion: سربست


Ahmet Akkoç said:


> There's also the subject of how we(the TDK that is) massacre phonology and semantics for the sake of "vowel harmony"
> (I think lahana vs. lahano is the most depressing example where we've turned a singular word into the plural of its original language.)


Why are you depressed? We are dealing with two different languages here, namely Turkish and Greek. Of course there will be differences between the pronunciations. And there are Arabic words as well in Turkish which we use as if it is a singular word but they are plural in fact. An educated Turkish person doesn't do this mistake obviously but in daily life we all do it.


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## uress

I find it unlikely that there is a connection between bakla and baklava, more probably they are just similar in sound, there are so many similar words in every language which have no connection at all. In Hungarian e.g. vár is wait AND castle at the same time  And it's not because the inhabitants of the castle are waiting for the enemy


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## themadprogramer

Muttaki said:


> This is not strange at all. There must be millions of examples like this in many languages, not peciluar to Turkish.
> 
> Why are you depressed? We are dealing with two different languages here, namely Turkish and Greek. Of course there will be differences between the pronunciations. And there are Arabic words as well in Turkish which we use as if it is a singular word but they are plural in fact. An educated Turkish person doesn't do this mistake obviously but in daily life we all do it.



Because I don't like the notion of "pure-turkish". Taking a word that's obviously foreign and tampering with it beyond the colloquial usage to artificially make it seem more natural causes problems when romanising (as you pointed out earlier we're not on the level of Engrish or Kiswahili per se) . I don't expect anyone to type everything letter for letter but makine vs makine simply because we like to say we adopted it from French more is a similar example where neither the colloquial nor the more "natural" is prefferred. Though here is not the place to talk about this any further I guess. So I'll leave it at that.


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## uress

So how do you call these 2 legumes: _Lathyrus clymenum _and _Pisum sativum1_ and _Pisum sativum2_?
And the 3rd one is _Vicia faba_ or _Faba sativa_ or _Faba vulgaris_ you said before about it's called bakla.
(No, none of them is yesil mercimek )

The second one is I think bizeli in Greek (yes, bezelye) but how do you difference them I mean the yellow and the green ones)? All these could be called fava in Greek but! THE fava is the 1st one  It grows in Santorini.

And the good news: we found out what favaki is -at least in Greek  It's a mixture of _Lathyrus clymenum and Pisum sativum1  _


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## Muttaki

uress said:


> I find it unlikely that there is a connection between bakla and baklava, more probably they are just similar in sound, there are so many similar words in every language which have no connection at all. In Hungarian e.g. vár is wait AND castle at the same time  And it's not because the inhabitants of the castle are waiting for the enemy


Oh, alright. But what about _baklavaki_? Is it again a coincidence that till the last syllable they are the same?


Ahmet Akkoç said:


> I don't expect anyone to type everything letter for letter but makine vs makine simply because we like to say we adopted it from French more is a similar example where neither the colloquial nor the more "natural" is prefferred.


Makina or makine, actually the original spelling allows us to pronounce it both way. ماكینه is how it is written in Kamus-i Türkî and we have many examples of the last letter ه being pronounced as an "e" sound or an "a" sound. To give an example, we have هفته/hafta, طامله/damla, Rusya/روسیە or كلمه/kelime, غمزە/gamze. So, I would argue that even though it might be with an "a" sound originally we can change it according to the vowel harmony of Turkish language and pronounce it with an "e" sound, which actually already happens automatically whether we want it or not.



uress said:


> So how fo you call these 2 legumes: _Lathyrus clymenum _and _Pisum sativum1_ and _Pisum sativum2_?
> And the 3rd one is _Vicia faba_ or _Faba sativa_ you said before about it's called bakla.
> (No, none of them is yesil mercimek )
> 
> The second one is I think bizeli but how do you difference them? All these could be called fava in Greek but! THE fava is the 1st one  It grows in Santorini.


It is _bezelye. _I couldn't recognize the first one but isn't _bakla _a general name for things like _fasulye_, _bezelye_ or _nohut_?


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## uress

> But what about _baklavaki_? Is it again a coincidence that till the last syllable they are the same?



Yes, it's just a coincidence of a simple ending with the suffix -aki. AND we also have to note here that are not speaking of a common used, well-known Greek world (which is most probably compounded from fava+faki) AND also that the world fava+aki _(meaning small fava or more: beloved fava, and also note that fava can mean the seeds and the food as well)_ exists, too, even if it's very very rarely used.

And how do you call the yellow and the green bezelye? Sari bezelye ve yesil bezelye?


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## Muttaki

I didn't know of_ sarı bezelye_. I would only say _bezelye_ to the green ones or _araka_ which I believe also comes from Greek.


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## uress

We use both, bizeli and arakas in Greek.

But won't others think instaed of dry green/yellow peas that you are speaking about fresh green peas if you say beleye/araka?

_I can find a lot of pictures where sari beleye and yesil kuru bezelye are not splitted but whole. Does it mean that it's very easy to get them as whole seeds in the pazars???  Then I really have to get back to Istanbul _


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## Muttaki

uress said:


> But won't others think instaed of dry green/yellow peas that you are speaking about fresh green peas if you say beleye/araka?


Yeah I guess. When I hear _bezelye_ or _araka_ I think of green peas whether dry, fresh or cooked.


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## uress

And back to fava beans: does bakla finally mean fava bean or legumes or both?


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## Muttaki

I don't know what fava bean exactly is. But I thought _bakla_ is a general name for pea, chickpea or bean.


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## Rallino

For me bakla is this dish http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/119/1140/400/bakla 031.jpg


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## uress

Rallino, isn't it (zeytinjagli) taze fasulye???

Muttaki, I've put pictures about fava beans here, or at least I wanted and if I've forgotten I'll put one right now.
Yes, the pictures are (3 pieces called faba) in the message Nr.25. Maybe you can now recognize it.


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## Rallino

It looks similar but they're different. Bakla is lighter colour, has thicker skin, bigger "beans"  and is bitter.


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## uress

Oh, oh, oh... By now I really got confused... 

Türkish wikipedia says: *bakla *is *fava bean* (*Vicia faba*). So I think you know this dish as _bakla _because it's made from *green fava beans* and not from _green (common) beans_.

But then there are 2 other words:
*baklagil*(*ler*) which is the word for *legumes *-known by Muttaki as _bakla_.
And *aci bakla* _(Lupinus)_ which is _lupin(e) _in English, I know what it is, that's not the question. But do you know it? Is it common in Turkey? Can you get it in the market? Do yout eat it as normal?

But I still don't know what _*fava *(Lathyrus)_ is in Turkish 
With the help of wikipedia I've found now *mürdümük *for _fava _but have you ever heard it?
Oh, look at this


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## themadprogramer

_mürdümük_? Never heard of it.

the gil in baklagil(ler) is similar to the daş in arkadaş but not quite the same. It means something like "of the same house".


But as we, attempted to at least, establish earlier *fava *indeed entered the language as *bakla, *as it was imported from and most likely was introduced by the Arabs.
Things is though bakla on it's own already refers to legumes in general. baklagil(ler) is actually a redundant word


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## uress

Ahmet Akkoç said:


> _mürdümük_? Never heard of it.


No? Look for it and try it. More than highly recommanded! It's sooo yummy!!! It's similar to sari fasolye but muchmuch better in taste.
And I hope someone will come and tell us that he know mürdümük and it's not only a sci-fi word 



Ahmet Akkoç said:


> the gil in baklagil(ler) is similar to the daş in arkadaş but not quite the same. It means something like "of the same house".


That's really interesting with this "house".



Ahmet Akkoç said:


> *fava *indeed entered the language as *bakla*


But you don't mean the Greek fava here but the English fava, do you?



Ahmet Akkoç said:


> Things is though bakla on it's own already refers to legumes in general. baklagil(ler) is actually a redundant word


Hm. It's seems getting clear now, so bakla has actually 2 separate meanings which are connected to each other
... Hm... Good to know it, thanks to you and all of you!


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## themadprogramer

Bakliyât is a specilized arabic plural that can be translated as the -ular in molecular
*طب جزيئي *
(Molecular Medicine: Tib + Caziiya(t) Medicine + Specizialied plural of the word molecule)

Now thing is during the early days of the republic we faced a problem that even had English went through before. You may have heard that the word doubt for instance used to be spelled more logically but was changed to include the d by scholars who wanted to make its origin clearer(? I at least remember that being the reason but it could be a bit more complicated) Likewise the people (by people I refer to government officials for the most part) were divided into three:

1. Those who thought we should stick with Arabic and Persian for derriving new words (akin to what Latin and Greek are across europe) and use terminology that had be derrived therefrom.
2. Those who saw these were in a way distancing us from Europe and wanted to import particullarly from French (this is why our chemical nomenclature is based on the French, ie Chlorate vs. Chlorure -> Klorür)
3. Those who thought that we should seek the lost words and suffixes of Turkish and it's many accents and incorporate them as tools to derrive not only terminology but also replace older words. (Basically like nynorsk)

The three of these working together could have made Turkish an awesome language, what did end up happening was that the 2nd group became the dominant in derrivation of terminology and the 3rd in the replacement of words (rather than installation of new ones) and well they all used different rules while romanising which made Turkish much harder to spell then it should have been. (ex. Unvan vs. Ünvan, Words like Parabolü killing vowel harmony with ô, whatever on earth the -ev suffix is)

Baklagiller however is a rare survivor of the 3rd type of derrivation. Where Bakliyat was replaced by Baklagiller. Thing is that -gil already makes a noun pluralized. However due to reasons beyond mortals capability of understanding any word that was in Arabic or based on Arabic which was of a plural form that was translated was given a redundant "-lar/-ler"
(Ex. Üç aylar, the three sacred months; as you probably know we do not pluralise after a number)

In a nutshell Baklagiller should drop the ler in become Baklagil. (If all this was confusing, people hopefully won't be enraged by you using bakliyat as its still commonly employed)


Bakla in the singular refers to a non-specififc member of the Baklagil.

As for mürdümük I fear this came about due to similar reasons. (So yeah I guess you could consider it a "scifi" or regional word)

I popped mürdümük into an Azeri translator and got a word called gülülce that at least sounds more likely, I hope Gemmenita could explain that for all of us


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## uress

Oh, that's great, thanks, but I'll have to read it again 

As for molecul-AR: -ar and -al are well-known suffixes for adjective building in the Latin language. We use them a lot.palat-al, vel-ar, etc...

I can't find gülülce in dictionaries, either  not even as gülül, if -ce is a suffix.
But gülü is a Hungarian word  If you want to understand it write gülüke and look at it's eyes gülü eyes are like that (the size, like falling out from curiosity)


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## Gemmenita

Ahmet Akkoç said:


> I popped mürdümük into an Azeri translator and got a word called gülülce that at least sounds more likely, I hope Gemmenita could explain that for all of us.



 Yes, 'gülülcə' is Azeri, however seems that it is known in Turkish language too:
gülül= bezelye/pea/ pois (in French)
-cə =  suffix meaning family (biology) for "ceae". (certainly so!)

But _gülülcə _as well as _mürdümük_ belong to bontanical terminology hence they are scientific words so not used in daily language. That's why it's very natural that both words are unknown!

Now: gülülcə (in Azeri)= mürdümük (in Turkish) are sub-families of _baklagiller, _as below:

Baklagiller(fabaceae) *=*

*1.* bakla (fava beans/ vicia faba), fasuliye, nohud, mercimek, bezelye...( which are eaten and consumed as _human_ foods)
*+
2.* mürdümük (gülülcə) which belongs to another large family of 'baklagiller' called _Lathyrus._
Some of the plants of 'Lathyrus' family are comestible but not as human foods, some have curative effects and some are used as animal feed.

Some species of Lathyrus plants are called _pea_ or _pois_ in colloquial language, which confirms the meaning of _gülül_.


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## uress

Yes, lathyrus/mürdümük has 170 different types! But the difference is never as big as in the bakla group, so people usually aren't able to make a difference between them so they call all of them fava/lathyrus/lednek/etc...  
_But have a look at it in google images, it's one of the most beautiful plants with most amazing blossom colours!!! 
_
Oh, I saw favaki in a health food store today  It's clearly to see that it is a mixture of gülül ve mercimek  I only wonder how it appeared in Turkish sites


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