# Why German did not incorporate a lot of French words like English did?



## antoine_vchv

I know some people will disagree but when compared to English, German has *significantly* less loanwords from French. Even the words for *car* and *TV *are of Germanic origin instead of being borrowed straight from French or Latin. Is there a particular reason why that happened?


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## sound shift

England was conquered by French speakers in 1066 and then ruled by them for a couple of centuries. Nothing similar happened in Germany.


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## antoine_vchv

But during the Renaissance period French was the language of culture and had a high status in Europe. It’s almost as if German somehow rejected the influx of French.


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## merquiades

French and Anglo-Saxon English were the two key components of modern English. They are fused together into something new. Modern English speakers cannot understand old Anglo-Saxon English nor Latin or French without years of training.

Once in a while people start threads wondering if English is a creole or a Germanic-Romance combo because up to 50% of the words are French or Latin. In general when people talk of pork or beef and eat with forks, they don't think they are speaking French. These words are just modern English.

This is not the same as adopting a few words of prestige into the language following the Renaissance, which modern English, German and Russian all did.

German used to have more foreign words but they were replaced by ones with Germanic roots.  Billet became Fahrkarte, etc.


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## Dymn

English is the result of the Anglo-Saxon language spoken in England before William the Conqueror being passed down through each generation, just that it adopted Romance and Latin words en masse, so I don't think it's fair to call it a mix. 

For that to occur there should be a clear break between any existing language, and the core (basic vocabulary, inflectional morphology, etc.) should be relatively evenly split.


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## Dymn

antoine_vchv said:


> But during the Renaissance period French was the language of culture and had a high status in Europe.


Was it during the Renaissance? I would say 18th and 19th centuries.



antoine_vchv said:


> It’s almost as if German somehow rejected the influx of French.


I think German has quite a lot of French loanwords, for example _Detail, Branche, Büro, Balkon, Pommes_, _Cousin_, _Restaurant_, etc. some of them pronounced as in French, unlike English which Anglicized them. 

English got most of its Romance/German vocabulary from the times Anglo-Norman was the prestige language in England.


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## Penyafort

Yes, there were more French loanwords from the Enlightenment (the Siècle des Lumières) to the rise of English. The Renaissance was rather a period for Italianisms. 

Although this might vary from language to language, and their influence on English is a different story.


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## Perseas

antoine_vchv said:


> I know some people will disagree but when compared to English, German has *significantly* less loanwords from French.


If German is compared to English, it has probably less French loanwords, but if I judge from this list the number doesn't seem to be small:
List of German words of French origin - Wikipedia


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## antoine_vchv

Perseas said:


> If German is compared to English, it has probably less French loanwords, but if I judge from this list the number doesn't seem to be small:
> List of German words of French origin - Wikipedia



When I started learning German I was amazed how I was able to read sentences with either 1,2 or no loanwords in them. Of course I was looking for those found in English but you probably get the point. Some of the words you mentioned exist in my language as well…. Detail, Balkon, Restaurant, Büro (means a table/desk, not an office). Also two words that are absent in English but present in my language “Abonnement and Reklame” give me the impression that German didn’t borrow French words because they were superior but rather due to them being “modern” at the time. Now German had contact with Slavic languages for centuries and that is visible in Russian, Bulgarian, Polish and Ukrainian. Wagen which is a Car becomes Vagon in Bulgarian and it’s used for “train trailer”, Quartal becomes Kvartal with the meaning of a neighbourhood, according to a friend it’s also used in Russian for the same thing. I think I got enough answers that make sense so I’m gonna close the topic


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## Linnets

Modern German has no native word for hairdresser: there are _Friseur_ or _Coiffeur _(in Switzerland), both French words. There are a lot of other examples similar to it.


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## apmoy70

What struck me is the French vocabulary in German military terminology: Bataillon, Division, Regiment, Kompanie, Soldat, Grenadier, Kavallerie, Artillerie, Korps, Ingenieur etc


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## WadiH

apmoy70 said:


> What struck me is the French vocabulary in German military terminology: Bataillon, Division, Regiment, Kompanie, Soldat, Grenadier, Kavallerie, Artillerie, Korps, Ingenieur etc



That’s due to the French Revolutionary / Napoleonic wars, no? The French effectively developed modern military organization in that period (and state-bureaucratic organization more broadly I suppose).


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## apmoy70

Wadi Hanifa said:


> That’s due to the French Revolutionary / Napoleonic wars, no? The French effectively developed modern military organization in that period (and state-bureaucratic organization more broadly I suppose).


I think the French exercised influence even earlier, as according to modern biographies:


			
				Adam L. Storring-Frederick the Great 1730-1755 said:
			
		

> Frederick the Great's warfare (at least in his youth) was culturally French, and reflected the towering influence of King Louis XIV. Frederick embraced French military methods, taking inspiration from generals like Turenne and Luxembourg, and French writers like the Marquis de Feuquières


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## Perseas

antoine_vchv said:


> Wagen which is a Car becomes Vagon in Bulgarian and it’s used for “train trailer”


Greek also has βαγόνι: βαγόνι <  Italian vagone < French wagon < English wagon.
Does Bulgarian Vagon come surely from German?


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## Frank78

apmoy70 said:


> I think the French exercised influence even earlier, as according to modern biographies:



Even older, most military terms in German are from the 15th-17th century.


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## antoine_vchv

Perseas said:


> Greek also has βαγόνι: βαγόνι <  Italian vagone < French wagon < English wagon.
> Does Bulgarian Vagon come surely from German?



According to Wiktionary the word Wagon comes from Old Dutch which I honestly can’t believe but it’s safe to say Bulgarian borrows most of its technical terminology from German so we have to assume Vagon comes or was at least influenced/enforced by German. A lot of Bulgarians even haven’t heard of Dutch like ever, and are definitely unaware of its origin. Some think it’s a dialect of German. Truth is, it’s probably the only major declining in use language in Europe which is a shame since I changed my opinion about it from “god, what is this?” to “it’s kinda nice sounding”. Also a little off topic, Bulgarian has a lot of Greek words. Most are ones you even can’t recognise, I guess.. Examples: -
Haresvam “to like”, Harizvam “to gift”, Khora “people”, Lipsa “lack of, miss”, Makar, Kamo… do they exist in Modern Greek or are already obsolete?


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## Perseas

antoine_vchv said:


> Also a little off topic, Bulgarian has a lot of Greek words. Most are ones you even can’t recognise, I guess.. Examples: -
> Haresvam “to like”, Harizvam “to gift”, Khora “people”, Lipsa “lack of, miss”, Makar, Kamo… do they exist in Modern Greek or are already obsolete?


Ι wouldn't understand that those words are of Greek origin, if you hadn't written that.  
I can recognize some of the them, but the Greek form or meaning is different. E.g. 'khora' (in Greek 'χώρα') is country, land.
'Lipsa' reminds me of the Greek 'έλλειψη' ['elipsi] which means 'lack, absence'. 'Harizvam' reminds me of 'χαρίζω' [xa'rizo], which means 'to gift'.


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## antoine_vchv

Perseas said:


> Ι wouldn't understand that those words are of Greek origin, if you hadn't written that.
> I can recognize some of the them, but the Greek form or meaning is different. E.g. 'khora' (in Greek 'χώρα') is country, land.
> 'Lipsa' reminds me of the Greek 'έλειψα' ['elipsa] which means 'I was absent/missing'. 'Harizvam' reminds me of 'χαρίζω' [xa'rizo], which means 'to gift'.



Origin of “Haresvam”. I guess Greek was very important to us in the past


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## berndf

antoine_vchv said:


> According to Wiktionary the word Wagon comes from Old Dutch which I honestly can’t believe


Why not? English has borrowed heavily from Dutch. The route Dutch > English > French > Bulgarian is plausible. German has borrowed it very late (19th century) from English but influenced by French, hence the French style pronunciation in modern German.


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## merquiades

berndf said:


> Why not? English has borrowed heavily from Dutch. The route Dutch > English > French > Bulgarian is plausible. German has borrowed is very late (19th century) from English but influenced by French, hence the French style pronunciation in modern German.


Do you mean "wagen" was only borrowed in the 19th century??


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## berndf

merquiades said:


> Do you mean "wagen" was only borrowed in the 19th century??


The question was about _Wag*go*n_ and not about _Wag*e*n_.

_Wagen _and _Waggon _are effectively doublets but have different meanings, though with some overlap.


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## merquiades

berndf said:


> The question was about _Wag*go*n_ and not about _Wag*e*n_.
> 
> _Wagen _and _Waggon _are effectively doublets but have different meanings, though with some overlap


I thought "wagen" came from "wagon". What are the different meanings then?

Edit:  I see it's only used as a train carriage nothing else, and as you say pronounced as French. So that must be the origin after all. This can also be "güterwagen", right?


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## berndf

merquiades said:


> I thought "wagen" came from "wagon". What are the different meanings then?


_Wagen _is the native word and just means _car, carriage, wagon _in all possible meanings. _Wag(g)on_ is a special word for _railway carriage_.


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## berndf

merquiades said:


> This can also be "güterwagen", right?


Yes, you can also say _Güterwag(g)on_ but _Wag(g)on_ is indeed primarily used for passenger train carriages.

By the way: It is spelled *G*_üterwagen_, not _*g*üterwagen_.


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## antoine_vchv

berndf said:


> Why not? English has borrowed heavily from Dutch. The route Dutch > English > French > Bulgarian is plausible. German has borrowed it very late (19th century) from English but influenced by French, hence the French style pronunciation in modern German.



Check the attachment, it appears like I was right… let’s not forget it was a German who made the first car so it’s only fair the word is German in origin as well  
I would like to apologize for making it seem like I praise German for being cleansed from French loanwords. That is not what I meant at all. But compared to English it’s certainly more clear. And because of that I am a big fan!!. There’s  something very exotic in the pronunciation and intonation that made me fall in love. I don’t find German harsh or rough sounding, instead I feel the passion. 
But I just can’t understand one thing. You have words for Car and TV and Insurance Company but you DON’T HAVE A WORD FOR HAIRDRESSER???…


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## Frank78

antoine_vchv said:


> You have words for Car and TV and Insurance Company but you DON’T HAVE A WORD FOR HAIRDRESSER???…



Auto(mobil) is not native German either. There's also no native word for window in German and surely many many more.


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## Awwal12

Wadi Hanifa said:


> That’s due to the French Revolutionary / Napoleonic wars, no? The French effectively developed modern military organization in that period (and state-bureaucratic organization more broadly I suppose).


Curiously, Russian has managed to loan the native German term for "company" (рота "róta"), while German itself has abandoned it. 
But in general the situation in the Russian military terminology is quite the same, which also points at the fact the terminology is mostly pre-Napoleonic; after all, France was the land hegemon of Europe already in the 17th century (and most of the loans into Russian are not later than the 18th century - typically through German and/or Polish).

Just compare:
Bataillon = batal'yón
Division = divíziya, divizión
Regiment = polk (from Old Rus. пълкъ ~"troop" << Gothic *fulk)
Kompanie = róta
Soldat = soldát
Grenadier = grenadér or grenadyór
Kavallerie = kavalériya
Artillerie = artillériya
Korps = kórpus
Ingenieur = inzhenér


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## antoine_vchv

Frank78 said:


> Auto(mobil) is not native German either. There's also no native word for window in German and surely many many more.



Like we already established in German,  Wagen is the native word for car. Auto/Automobil(e) is internationally used. I am always for the usage of native terms instead of loanwords because too many loaning and the language loses its originality. It’s good only in small amounts


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## Linnets

Frank78 said:


> Auto(mobil) is not native German either. There's also no native word for window in German and surely many many more.


There is _Pkw_ (_Personenkraftwagen_), maybe not entirely German but surely more German than _Auto_.


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## berndf

antoine_vchv said:


> Check the attachment


That attachment is about _Wag_*e*_n_ not about _Wag*o*n_. Those are different words. Your original comment was about _Wag*o*n_:



antoine_vchv said:


> According to Wiktionary the word *Wagon *comes from Old Dutch


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## Penyafort

merquiades said:


> Do you mean "wagen" was only borrowed in the 19th century??





berndf said:


> The question was about _Wag*go*n_ and not about _Wag*e*n_.
> 
> _Wagen _and _Waggon _are effectively doublets but have different meanings, though with some overlap.


I agree. Even with the sense of 'voiture de chemin de fer' in French seems to be attested since the 1820s. From then, it logically would traavel to the rest of Europe over the 19th century indeed. In Spanish, for instance, _vagón _is attested since the 1840s.


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## antoine_vchv

berndf said:


> That attachment is about _Wag_*e*_n_ not about _Wag*o*n_. Those are different words. Your original comment was about _Wag*o*n_:



Oh my God, I confused myself cause of all that praising German speech that I mixed up the words. Yeah, it’s correct. Anyway, I just wanna say that I learn German without going to a special course nor using a teacher. All I need are some materials online and a lot of dedicated time. Truly beautiful language, Germany is the homeland of my favorite brand - Mercedes-Benz. I had a lot of reasons to learn it..

Wunderbare und melodische Sprache. Ich bewundere ihn. Grüße aus Bulgarien! 🇧🇬❤️🇩🇪


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## Demiurg

Frank78 said:


> There's also no native word for window in German and surely many many more.


The native German word "Windauge" (lit. _wind eye_) lost its significance with the invention of glass panes.


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## berndf

Demiurg said:


> The native German word "Windauge" (lit. _wind eye_) lost its significance with the invention of glass panes.


In contrast to English where the word is still in use, even with glass.


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## Awwal12

Demiurg said:


> The native German word "Windauge" (lit. _wind eye_) lost its significance with the invention of glass panes.


Yes, I can imagine that it was the contrast between the typical holes in a peasant's hut (closed by something vaguely transparent at best) and actual windows. May be difficult to see the similarity.


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## berndf

In ancient Germanic houses the wind eye and the door were the only openings. Today you only find those kind of houses only in some barns, mainly in Lower Saxony in Northern Germany like this one I saw a few years ago 50 km south of Hamburg:




But today they have additional modern types of windows

But old Germanic houses didn't have those. Not even not the long houses of the wealthy.


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## Awwal12

berndf said:


> But old Germanic houses didn't have those. Not even not the long houses of the wealthy.


Obvious enough, as even small glass pieces of the early Medieval were basically high tech, plus Germanic houses were rather primitive in general.


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## Linnets

Demiurg said:


> The native German word "Windauge" (lit. _wind eye_) lost its significance with the invention of glass panes.


Given the German obsession with long, compound words, I'm quite surprised *_Glaswindauge_ didn't catch on.


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## kentix

antoine_vchv said:


> I am always for the usage of native terms instead of loanwords because too many loaning and the language loses its originality. It’s good only in small amounts


And we English speakers don't worry about it much. For us, that ship sailed long ago. We would have to go back to the 11th century to reach that point of purity. Instead we've gone the other way. "Bring us your words! We'll buy as many as you have. The check is in the mail."

In English the concept of a pure language is just a quaint idea, although some people take it more seriously.

The Anglish Moot

Most of our originality comes from borrowing and blending words and creating a fusion cuisine of language.


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## bearded

antoine_vchv said:


> Wunderbare und melodische Sprache. Ich bewundere ihn.


Sorry, it should be _Ich bewundere *sie*_*.*


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## Perseas

antoine_vchv said:


> Origin of “Haresvam”. I guess Greek was very important to us in the past


What's remarkable to me is that, while Western languages have borrowed Greek words that refer to the scientific and technical field, Bulgarian and other languages of neighbouring countries have borrowed words of the everyday vocabulary.
Greek also has borrowed words from neighbouring languages, like Turkish, Slavic or Albanian. For example, ρούχο (cloth) or κοτέτσι (henhouse) are of Slavic origin. Maybe, we should take more  interest in the languages of our neighbours.


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## berndf

Linnets said:


> Given the German obsession with long, compound words, I'm quite surprised *_Glaswindauge_ didn't catch on.


My point was that the Germanic wind eye is functionally more a chimney than a fenestra. It is therefore logical, Germanic languages would import Latin _fenestra_ to refer to real windows, which traditional Germanic houses did not have. Old English also used _fenester_ for window. The term _wind eye_ was reimported from Old Norse.


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## antoine_vchv

bearded said:


> Sorry, it should be _Ich bewundere *sie*_*.*


I’m not paying attention…. My bad. Thanks for the correction!


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## Penyafort

berndf said:


> My point was that the Germanic wind eye is functionally more a chimney than a fenestra. It is therefore logical, Germanic languages would import Latin _fenestra_ to refer to real windows, which traditional Germanic houses did not have. Old English also used _fenester_ for window. The term _wind eye_ was reimported from Old Norse.


It makes sense. Some even proposed Spanish ventana to be a calque from Germanic, although that is unlikely. But Spanish, like English, also changed _hiniestra _for _ventana_, which originally meant 'little hole to breathe; nostril'. In fact, West Iberian as a whole discarded fenestra, as Portuguese also preferred a "little door", a _janela_, instead of a _fresta_.


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## fdb

Perseas said:


> What's remarkable to me is that, while Western languages have borrowed Greek words that refer to the scientific and technical field, Bulgarian and other languages of neighbouring countries have borrowed words of the everyday vocabulary.
> Greek also has borrowed words from neighbouring languages, like Turkish, Slavic or Albanian. For example, ρούχο (cloth) or κοτέτσι (henhouse) are of Slavic origin. Maybe, we should take more  interest in the languages of our neighbours.


Some of them presumably via Church Slavonic.


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## kentix

There are lots of everyday words in American English that come from Spanish, especially from Mexico. That includes foods and geographic features.


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## Awwal12

fdb said:


> Some of them presumably via Church Slavonic.


Well, Church Slavonic is basically a continuation of written Old Bulgarian anyway.
But we shouldn't forget the Balkan Sprachbund.


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## Włoskipolak 72

I've often heard in German : in der *Hotellerie *, ihr soziales *Engagement *etc.


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## Keith Bradford

Perseas said:


> If German is compared to English, it has probably less French loanwords, but if I judge from this list the number doesn't seem to be small:
> List of German words of French origin - Wikipedia


That list comes to about 2,300 French words adopted into German.  About _half_ the English basic vocabulary - i.e. some 15,000 words - are borrowed from French. I'm fully convinced that this equally-shared borrowing in English is one of its strongest advantages, giving us the choice between the Germanic "Can I wish you a hearty welcome!" (Darf ich Ihnen ein herzliches Willkommen wünschen! = Come and sit down by the fire and I'll get you a glass of warm beer) and the Gallic "Permit me to extend a cordial reception" (Permettez-moi de vous accorder un accueil cordial ! = Stand there and I'll pour you a glass of chilled wine).

The same words from the same roots (cordial = hearty: coeur = Hertz, etc.), but oh what a difference in history, tone, social class... ultimately in meaning!

(PS: Which play was it that had an affected character who used a lot of French borrowings?  Asked about it afterwards, one playgoer responded.  "Es war ganz gut. Aber alle diese Fremdwörte, das waren so exageriert!")


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## Yendred

Keith Bradford said:


> About _half_ the English basic vocabulary - i.e. some 15,000 words - are borrowed from French.


Really?   Don't you think it's rather from Latin?


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## Frank78

Keith Bradford said:


> "Permit me to extend a cordial reception" (Permettez-moi de vous accorder un accueil cordial ! = Stand there and I'll pour you a glass of chilled wine).



That works in German as well but it's even more snobbish than in English.

"Permittieren Sie mir, Sie kordial zu begrüßen." 

I was tempted to write "rezeptionieren" but that doesn't seem to exist.


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## kentix

Most words didn't come directly from Latin.


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## berndf

Yendred said:


> Really?   Don't you think it's rather from Latin?


No, mostly from French, Norman French to be precise. There are a few Latin loans that are older than 1066, like _wine_, but most Latin loans belong to a more learned vocabulary.


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## Keith Bradford

Yendred said:


> Really?   Don't you think it's rather from Latin?


The borrowing came largely between 1066 and about 1400, quite specifically from Norman scribes working for the Plantagenet kings.  These words may well have come ultimately from Latin, but then they probably all came ultimately from Proto-Indo-European in the Pripet Marshes in the Stone Age  if truth were told.

There was a later and smaller wave of borrowing from Latin during the Renaissance, through the clergy and academics.  So we may have multiple synonyms like _breakable _(Saxon), _fragile _and _frail _(Norman French) and _frangible_ (Latin).

So far as I know, the only borrowings direct from the Romans are placenames (Dorchester, Wall, London...).  And now I know to add _wine _to the list; thanks berndf!


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## berndf

Keith Bradford said:


> The borrowing came largely between 1066 and about 1400, quite specifically from Norman scribes working for the Plantagenet kings.


Not too much to do with scribes. The entire elite of the country, nobility, gentry and the large parts of the bourgeoisie in the cities were replaced by French speakers, Anglo-French and "normal" French. The elite started to speak English only in the mid 14th century. Had Chaucer lived 50 years earlier he would probably have written in Anglo-French and not in Middle English. As a working language of Parliament and of the crown courts, Anglo-French survived until the Tudor reign. 


Keith Bradford said:


> here was a later and smaller wave of borrowing from Latin during the Renaissance, through the clergy and academics.


Not sure if you would call this "Renaissance". This happened mainly during the Tudor and Stuart reigns where proficiency in Latin was fashionable among the educated classes. As this happened mainly after the reformations, the clergy had little influence on this.


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## Yendred

berndf said:


> Anglo-French


What do you mean by Anglo-French? People with double origin/culture/nationality?


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## berndf

Yendred said:


> What do you mean by Anglo-French? People with double origin/culture/nationality?


Anglo-French is the name of a language: The version of French spoken in medieval England by the ruling class. It is based on Norman dialect. Modern English has some double-loans from standard and Anglo-French. Examples:
w_arranty* _(Anglo-French), _guaranty _(Standard French)
c_atch** _(Anglo-French), c_hase _(Standard French)
_____________________________
*Norman, and with it Anglo-French, retained the /w/ in words or Germanic origin longer than Standard French.
**Compare Picard _cather_ = French _chasser_.


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## Red Arrow

I am surprised about some of these examples. Dutch has raam/venster (window), bedrijf (company) and kapper (hairdresser). Venster is of course from Latin.

In German and Netherlandic Dutch, French loanwords are a luxury. In English and Belgian Dutch, French loanwords were unescapable. In 1830-1940, literally all modern words in Belgian Dutch came from French, including any part of a car or a bicycle, many job names, but also basic vocabulary like interjections and conjunctions. During World War I and II, the Flamenpolitik of the Germans lead to a divide between French and Belgian Dutch. Over time more French words got replaced by Standard Dutch, mostly forcibly in schools. It didn't happen naturally at all, so it is absolutely no surprise that this never happened at all in English.

Netherlandic Dutch borrowed French words whenever they were useful (detail, lingerie, punaise) or to sound posh (s'il vous plaît, chic, jus d'orange). I suppose the same thing is true in German, but clearly not in English. Perfectly fine English words got replaced by French words (tæfel > table).


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## Angelo di fuoco

Keith Bradford said:


> That list comes to about 2,300 French words adopted into German.  About _half_ the English basic vocabulary - i.e. some 15,000 words - are borrowed from French. I'm fully convinced that this equally-shared borrowing in English is one of its strongest advantages, giving us the choice between the Germanic "Can I wish you a hearty welcome!" (Darf ich Ihnen ein herzliches Willkommen wünschen! = Come and sit down by the fire and I'll get you a glass of warm beer) and the Gallic "Permit me to extend a cordial reception" (Permettez-moi de vous accorder un accueil cordial ! = Stand there and I'll pour you a glass of chilled wine).
> 
> The same words from the same roots (cordial = hearty: coeur = Hertz, etc.), but oh what a difference in history, tone, social class... ultimately in meaning!
> 
> (PS: Which play was it that had an affected character who used a lot of French borrowings?  Asked about it afterwards, one playgoer responded.  "Es war ganz gut. Aber alle diese Fremdwörte, das waren so exageriert!")



There was a campaign to get rid of Gallicisms around WWI. E. g. Goethe regularly used "Bouteille" for "bottle", but the usual modern word is Flasche. You also have (partial) synonyms like Verabredung, the Gallicism Rendezvous (and its translation "Stelldichein") and, in more recent times, the Anglicism "Date".



Frank78 said:


> That works in German as well but it's even more snobbish than in English.
> 
> "Permittieren Sie mir, Sie kordial zu begrüßen."
> 
> I was tempted to write "rezeptionieren" but that doesn't seem to exist.



You can still say "rezipieren", but it is a word that is actually used within a specific context (literary, film, art criticism, as in "Rezeptionsästhetik"; cultural sciences).
My proposal would be "accueillieren/akkueillieren" or "salutieren" (das Letztere kommt mir ein bisschen zu militärisch vor).


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