# jouer serré



## mattboost

comment traduire

''nous allons jouer serré!''

it's an idiomatic for meaning that we can't allow any mistake...

context is strategic, professional ...

in mine it's about mountaineering...
weather conditions don't allow to the climbers the possibility of doing mistakes anymore

thanks
merci


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## carolineR

to play with one's cards to one's chest


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## mattboost

ok!

thank you!

however


is this correct?

''now , we're playing with one's cards to one's chest'' ???

thanks


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## carolineR

'we're now playing with our cards to our chests''


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## mattboost

ha ! ok!

thank you!


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## Suehil

'Playing with your cards to your chest' does suggest playing very carefully, but is usually used in reference to playing (or dealing) with other people - not so much a rock-face and the weather.  I'm afraid that I can't think of anything more idiomatic than 'we going to have to be very careful out there'


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## Lariana

Hi,

"We're now playing a close game."


With no cards displayed, this idiomatic expression could be appropriate in the context.

I hope this helps.


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## Suehil

Both these card images connote not giving anything away to an opponent rather than being careful on a mountain.


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## Lariana

You are right, but "jouer serré" is an expression derived by card games as well.

It becomes metaphorical, doesn't it?


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## skiiersturge

I have always thought the expression was
'to play with one's cards CLOSE to one's chest.'


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## Lariana

"To play a close game" is in the dictionary.

Here:

http://dictionary.reverso.net/french-english/jouer


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## david314

Perhaps: _* to play things by the book*_


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## Franglais1969

carolineR said:


> to play with one's cards to one's chest



I believe the expression is:

*To hold one's cards* *close to one's chest *_(In BE anyway).  
_


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## floise

Hi Mattboost and others,

How about 'play it safe'?

Floise


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## david314

floise said:


> Hi Mattboost and others,
> 
> How about *'play it safe'*?
> 
> Floise


 J'aime ça. 


-Incidentally, I always say: _...close to the *vest*._


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## Teafrog

floise said:


> Hi Mattboost and others,
> 
> How about 'play it safe'?
> 
> Floise


  That has my vote. As I was reading down the posts, this is the expression that I thought to use. "in mountaineering, you have (or "one has") to play safe"


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## Suehil

'Play it safe' has my vote, too.  Definitely.


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## tilt

How about _play it tight_?
I know this sounds quite literal as a translation, but I've got the feeling I already heard it.


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## Matvitz

Lariana's dictionary entry states that jouer serré translates as "to play a close game" in english. To me, this suggests less the sense of playing as carefully as possible, and more the sense of tight competition (when careful play would be necessary but is not the main idea).

It is possible that this nuance has not been conveyed by the author of the original thread. But speaking directly to his post, I prefer the literal "play it tight".

"Playing it safe" is good, especially if you're deciding not to do something insane. But to my mind it _can_ connote hesitation or even cowardice, if the context has not ruled that out. It means not trying things at all, rather than being extra careful when you try things.

"Playing with the cards close to the chest" makes some sense but suggests a sneaky intrigue, not at all the instant death possible in a mountaineering misstep. 

I prefer "play it tight". Or "playing at the top of our form". These are red-blooded, consistent with split-second timing, and suggest that you mean business.

Sorry for the deletions.


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## Lariana

I prefer "play it tight", too. 

It's closer to the sense our friend is after, I think.


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## Teafrog

david314 said:


> Perhaps: _* to play things by the book*_


That's a good one , and I still prefer "to play safe", as we're talking about mountaineering.


Lariana said:


> I prefer "play it tight", too.
> 
> It's closer to the sense our friend is after, I think.


Yes, I agree, it is so close to the original Q that it could be a literal translation . Unfortunately, translating an idiom word-for-word is more often than not a recipe for trouble…
"Play it tight", for a potentially dangerous hobby, doesn't work, imo . For a card game, perhaps it would…


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## Matvitz

Play it safe, in AE, means to shy away from any possibility of trouble. If he means to be wary, cautious, to not take chances, if he secretly doubts his survival and yearns to be beyond this escapade, then indeed "play it safe" would be his choice. 

If he intends to take some risks to have something of an experience, then I disagree with playing it safe, in AE. Perhaps BE is different. 

I shouldn't insist on "playing it tight" either. Perhaps "we're going to be at the top of our game".


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## Teafrog

Oooookay, if there are few takers for "to play safe" or "to play by the book", etc., lets stop 'playing around' .
How about "we will be sailing close to the wind" then?


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## Suehil

If you use 'play it safe' in the context of an intention to climb the mountain (which is a risk in itself), then for me it would mean 'take no unnecessary risks', which I'm sure is what we are looking for here.


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## tilt

Suehil said:


> If you use 'play it safe' in the context of an intention to climb the mountain (which is a risk in itself), then for me it would mean 'take no unnecessary risks', which I'm sure is what we are looking for here.



Pour moi, *play it safe* et *play it tight* impliquent tous les deux de ne pas prendre de risque inutile, mais n'ont pas le même sens pour autant.

J'utiliserais *play it safe* pour dire qu'on ne va pas risquer de rater quelque chose de déjà bien engagé, en cherchant à faire mieux (par exemple, dans une course qu'on mène largement, tenter de prendre encore plus d'avance au risque de se planter).
Par contre, j'emploierais *play it tight* quand on n'a que peu de chances de réussir, quand toute erreur peut être fatale (comme dans un course qu'on mène de peu, avec les adversaires juste derrière).

En français, _*jouer serrer* _correspond au deuxième cas. On ne le dirait pas dans l'esemple que tu donnes, Suehil.
Si mon analyse des deux expressions anglaises est juste, c'est donc *play it tight *qui le traduit le mieux.


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## Lariana

J'avais exactement le même "feeling" (in the French meaning of the word ), Tilt.


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## mattboost

ok!!!!!!

according to your explanations , ''play it tight'' seems to me working in the context, for the climbers have to take the good decision that is to stay in their shelter rather than committing themselves in a hazardous descent with bad weather and in weak physical conditions...


thank you all


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## mattboost

une dernière chose

i can write : ''now we're playing it tight''
??


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## Matvitz

I agree completely with tilt, with the sole provision that "play it tight" is not very common. Google gets a million and a half hits with "play it safe" and only 500 with "play it tight".  

"We're going to play it tight," as you started mattboost, is perfectly ok. "We're going to stay at the top of our game," gets a few more hits and means the same thing. Either phrase might be used by a professional coach.


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## tilt

Matvitz said:


> I agree completely with tilt, with the sole provision that "play it tight" is not very common. Google gets a million and a half hits with "play it safe" and only 500 with "play it tight".
> 
> "We're going to play it tight," as you started mattboost, is perfectly ok. "We're going to stay at the top of our game," gets a few more hits and means the same thing. Either phrase might be used by a professional coach.


The 1 520 000 hits for "play it safe" are, in fact, less than 850: all the rest is copies of the first ones.
You can see this by asking for page 85 of the request return : http://www.google.com/search?q="play+it+safe"&hl=en&start=860&sa=N

Google's basic number of hits is not always (not often ?) relevant on its own.

And anyway, we do live in a world where people tend to play safe rather than tight...


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## bloomiegirl

I found an interesting blurb on http://www.alldaypoker.com/tight-play.html, "Advantages of Tight Playing in Poker Tournaments":
*Tight play* happens when you play it safe, and refrain from games that have a higher risk of losing.​Does that sound right?


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## floise

Hi everyone,

I haven't heard or used 'play tight' or 'play it tight' much. Reading up on it, it seems to be used more when there is a definite opponent, either in poker, or in some team sports (hockey, football). It doesn't seem to fit as well in the context of mountaineering, where there is not an opposing team. 

Floise


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## Franglais1969

floise said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I haven't heard or used 'play tight' or 'play it tight' much. Reading up on it, it seems to be used more when there is a definite opponent, either in poker, or in some team sports (hockey, football). It doesn't seem to fit as well in the context of mountaineering, where there is not an opposing team.
> 
> Floise



Only time I have heard anything remotely similar is in football, (sawker in US), when the manager will ask the defence to "keep it tight at the back."  Play it safe is definitely my recommendation.


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## Matvitz

If I can't compare with Google, then perhaps I can count the number of times I've heard each on my deathbed, when my life flashes before my eyes, for a more accurate ratio. Or maybe I could seek a hypnotist. 

"Play it safe" is _much_ more of a stock phrase. But it has gutless overtones. Period. A winning coach would avoid overusing it. 

"Play it tight" would normally be said in team sports (or cards). But mattboost is climbing in a group. "We're going to play it tight" would be a perfectly valid expression in something like a pre-climb peptalk.

I have also heard "keep it tight" _constantly_ in very aggressive, dangerous weightlifting settings. Here too "tight" means respectful caution _along with_ an uncompromising eye on the goal. Mountainclimbing is a _supremely_ goal-oriented activity. Tight is perfect.

I would only use "play it safe" if I were climbing alongside a team with limited experience.


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## Teafrog

Matvitz said:


> …
> "Play it safe" is _much_ more of a stock phrase. But it has gutless overtones . _Period_. …
> "Play it tight" would normally be said in team sports (or cards).  But mattboost is climbing in a group. "We're going to play it tight" would be a perfectly valid expression in something like a pre-climb peptalk.


I take your personal opinion on board, regarding the pep talk, thanks 
I am curious, has anyone bothered to look at the link I provided in post #23, then?


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## bloomiegirl

I agree completely with Matvitz; my choice would be _play it tight_. Frankly, this is a new expression for me in any context. But it has the sense of _play it safe_, while still taking risks... So, whether playing cards or mountain climbing - to wit - keep going, but choose the lesser risk.

To Teafrog - I'm not a sailor, but _sailing close to the wind_ sounds dangerous, without the mitigation that _playing it tight_ seems to convey.


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## cropje_jnr

Lariana said:


> I prefer "play it tight", too.
> 
> It's closer to the sense our friend is after, I think.


 
I've never heard this said in my life. 

*Play it safe* I hear on a near-daily basis.


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## Franglais1969

cropje_jnr said:


> I've never heard this said in my life.
> 
> *Play it safe* I hear on a near-daily basis.



I can only assume it is AE cropje, for, as I explained earlier, I have never heard it before either.


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## tilt

mattboost said:


> ok!!!!!!
> 
> according to your explanations , ''play it tight'' seems to me working in the context, for the climbers have to take the good decision that is to stay in their shelter rather than committing themselves in a hazardous descent with bad weather and in weak physical conditions...
> 
> 
> thank you all


Would the climbers be in danger while staying in their shelter, even if safer than descending ?
_*Jouer serré* _implies such a situation, in my opinion, and that's why I'd prefer *tight *to *safe *in English. They aren't _safe_, just safer.



Matvitz said:


> "Play it tight" would normally be said in team sports (or cards). But mattboost is climbing in a group. "We're going to play it tight" would be a perfectly valid expression in something like a pre-climb peptalk.
> 
> I have also heard "keep it tight" _constantly_ in very aggressive, dangerous weightlifting settings. Here too "tight" means respectful caution _along with_ an uncompromising eye on the goal. Mountainclimbing is a _supremely_ goal-oriented activity. Tight is perfect.
> 
> I would only use "play it safe" if I were climbing alongside a team with limited experience.


This explanation suits me. I'd say it could fairly fit as a description of the meaning of *Jouer serré* too.
*Serrer quelqu'un*, in a competition context, is to keep as close as possible to them.


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## floise

Franglais,

If it's AE, it's used among certain groups of which I am not part: poker players being one such group. I looked on the freedictionary.com idioms list and found nothing with _play_ and _tight_ in it. 

Teafrog, I did have a look at your link and I agree that the expression 'sail close to the wind' conveys the right meaning, adds that idea of risk-taking that 'play it safe' does not have, but I find the expression to be a bit obscure. I wonder how many people would understand what Mattboost was saying if he were to use it in his text (I'm still not sure what he is writing). 

Floise


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## Franglais1969

floise said:


> Franglais,
> 
> If it's AE, it's used among certain groups of which I am not part: poker players being one such group. I looked on the freedictionary.com idioms list and found nothing with _play_ and _tight_ in it.



Floise, I used to be a croupier and deal special Poker tournaments in a Casino, as well as watch Poker on televiison, and I swear I have never hard the term; which was why I assumed it was an AE saying.  I could be wrong, however.


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## Matvitz

If I had a coach that said "we're going to go out there and play it tight", I would think worst case that he was a little weird. And it would reflect a bad attitude in that case, if the guy's trying to lead me to a victory. Everyone would understand what he meant as well as they could understand anything else.

But if I had a coach that said, "we're going to go out there and play it *safe*", I'd join a rival team and we'd beat the shit out of them. 

"Play it safe" is very useful in avoiding day-to-day hazards. My position is that it's not in general good for hardcore sports.


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## floise

Matvitz,

Then, in that case, the coach might as well speak French and just show his determination by his tone of voice. I'm not sure that 'play it tight' is going to be meaningful enough.

I'm still looking at Mattboost's initial post and thinking that he wants to say two things: don't take unnecessary risks AND conquer that mountain. 

Floise


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## cropje_jnr

> Would the climbers be in danger while staying in their shelter, even if safer than descending ?
> _*Jouer serré* _implies such a situation, in my opinion, and that's why I'd prefer *tight *to *safe *in English. They aren't _safe_, just safer.


 
To me, 'to play it safe' is idiomatic. The word 'safe' here does not imply physical safety, it merely means the person is airing the side of caution in what they do and taking a careful approach.


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## Lariana

Well, "play it tight" is an American poker idiom all right. And it stands for "play it tight to the vest".


  "In my opinion you really have to play it tight. 6-7 People see the flop and there is 3 suited or 3 connected cards on the board then odds are that someone drew to it and hit."
http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-forum/lofiversion/index.php/t38012-50.html



  "In order to be the guide winner at Hold em seven cards stud idiom you must play it averts tight"
http://www.perfecttoppoker.com/pokerstartinghands.html


  just have shadiest an edge when engaged in sends a updating loose betting game on condition platter that you rewardingly , buddy, *play it tight*. 
http://www.onlinenip.com/10282.php



I'm no poker player, but I play in a rock band. You say "play it tight" when you can't afford to make any mistake.

  " Lack of a drummer forced the band to play it tight."

http://toestubber.com/archives/date/2005/10/

This means that, when you have no drummer to keep you in line, you have to be extra-careful.



 
And I still prefer "play it tight" in the current discussion because it reminds me of "in a tight place" : _so placed that action is both imperative & difficult _(OED).


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## Teafrog

bloomiegirl said:


> … my choice would be _play it tight_. … it has the sense of _play it safe_, while still taking risks... So, whether playing cards or mountain climbing - to wit - keep going, but choose the lesser risk.
> To Teafrog - I'm not a sailor, but _sailing close to the wind_ sounds dangerous, without the mitigation that _playing it tight_ seems to convey.


Would therefore place "_to skate on thin ice_" as extremely dangerous, "_sailing close to the wind_" as dangerous, "_playing it tight_" - which is hardly  heard in mainstream UK-lingo, except in field sports (not mountaineering…) as risky but acceptable, and "_playing it safe_" as almost dreary and too secure?


floise said:


> … Teafrog, I did have a look at your link and I agree that the expression 'sail close to the wind' conveys the right meaning, adds that idea of risk-taking that 'play it safe' does not have, but I find the expression to be a bit obscure. I wonder how many people would understand what Mattboost was saying if he were to use it in his text (I'm still not sure what he is writing).
> Floise


I understand your concern , and you may have a point. Could it be mostly used in the UK? Does this idiom come as a surprise, or indeed, as obscure to anyone else?  


cropje_jnr said:


> To me, 'to play it safe' is idiomatic. The word 'safe' here does not imply physical safety, it merely means the person is airing the side of caution in what they do and taking a careful approach.


That's how I, for one, understand it. "To play safe" is an _extremely wide-ranging and very populer idiom_, which doesn't have any "gutless overtones". In a rugby or basketball game, a coach could advise on a good attack strategy but say "keep it safe: make sure you don't leave yourselves open to a disastrous counterattack (i.e. don't forget to watch your arse ).
I appreciate that it is extremely tempting to use "keep it tight" for "jouer serré", as it almost sound the same…


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## Randisi.

As a climbing of long standing, I've never heard "play it tight" used in a climbing context (or in any other, really). As has been pointed out "play it safe" has connotations of being overly-timid. "We'll need to play it on the safe side" seems more appropriate - or perhaps the not-very-grammatical "We'll need to play it careful." "We'll be playing it close" means that there is little margin for error, that we're taking a bit of a calculated risk.

But perhaps we shouldn't be slaves to the particular French metaphor: 

We'll need to watch every step.
There's no margin for error. Or "little margin."


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## Matvitz

Randisi. said:


> But perhaps we shouldn't be slaves to the particular French metaphor:
> 
> We'll need to watch every step.
> There's no margin for error . Or "little margin."


 
I am new to French and thought of "tight" before knowing serré. I do think some expression with "tight" could make sense here ex nihilo_._ 

I don't really like it with "play it" either, merely because it sounds like something a surfer would say. I only want to make the important point that, if english is not your first language and you considered this direct translation, your fluency is not seriously challenged (TeaFrog, you can use it if you want, too ).   

But "There's no margin for error" definitely has my vote.


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## Matvitz

Teafrog said:


> That's how I, for one, understand it. "To play safe" is an _extremely wide-ranging and very populer idiom_, which doesn't have any "gutless overtones".


 
Agreed... to a point. In AE, it _does_ have gutless overtones when applied _to a sporting situation_. Whether or not it's easy to visualize finding anyone of questionable giblets on a mountainside. 



Teafrog said:


> In a rugby or basketball game, a coach could advise on a good attack strategy but say "keep it safe: make sure you don't leave yourselves open to a disastrous counterattack (i.e. don't forget to watch your arse ).


 
Agreed. But "keep it safe" is different from "play it safe". The latter suggests an entire campaign revolving around a strategy devoid of initiative. "Keep it safe" could be excellent advice given as an afterthought to the strategy, and would get around the imagery of anyone's tight arse. Again, the distinction may well exist only in AE. 



Teafrog said:


> I appreciate that it is extremely tempting to use "keep it tight" for "jouer serré", as it almost sound the same...


 
Actually jouer serré sounds more like "Jean-Pierre Serre" to me. "Keep it tight" sounds more like... "Strunk and White". The _temptation_ here is to "play it safe", wouldn't you think?


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## bloomiegirl

Given _play it tight_'s lack of currency, I'm becoming more persuaded by _play it close_.


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## bloomiegirl

Randisi. said:


> As a climb[er] of long standing...  "We'll be playing it close" means that there is little margin for error, that we're taking a bit of a calculated risk.
> 
> But perhaps we shouldn't be slaves to the particular French metaphor:
> There's no margin for error. Or "little margin."





Matvitz said:


> But "There's no margin for error" definitely has my vote.



This is the right idea, if it's understood (from the context?) that something will be done.

[Sorry, I seem to be reading the posts in reverse order.]


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