# е - ё



## jamtland76

I read almost everywhere (not only in this forum) that many write "е" instead of "ё". 
For example "Н неё есть кошка" becomes "У нее есть кошка". 
Why? Aren't they different vowels with different pronunciations?


----------



## morzh

This is due to some typesetting issues in publishing.
Eventually it became acceptable to do so in typesetting, as in context it is always perfectly clear what it should be.

However if you have "ё" at your disposal, like on the keyboard, or if you handwrite, it is always preferable to use it.

PS. Very much the same case was with "ъ". It was substituted by " ' "  (apostrophe), as many typewriters lacked it. Some people started doing it in writing. However it is still preferable to write it like it should be.


----------



## Natalisha

jamtland76 said:


> I read almost everywhere (not only in this forum) that many write "е" instead of "ё".
> For example "Н неё есть кошка" becomes "У нее есть кошка".
> Why? Aren't they different vowels with different pronunciations?



Yes, they are different. 

Though I always use "ё" when I write, I never use it when I type. Just a habit.


----------



## Ollie008

Hm, my answer is not going to be academic, but still: 

1. When writing by hand, I almost always strike the two dots over "ё". 
2. I read somewhere that using of *ё* was weakly discouraged in technical texts. Quite a while ago I got interested in the problem of usage of ё, made a small research of what internet had to say on the topic. It appears that the only period when its use was obligatory in the press was 1930s through 1950's, and only because Stalin had ordered so.
3. Its use has always been mandatory in texts written for teaching purposes, as foreigners always found it difficult to decide which, *е* or *ё* should be in this or that particular word. 
4. Subjectively, I can recall very few cases where I stumbled on a word and had to re-read it because it was not clear which letter was there, and it influenced understanding of the phrase.  One example would be *все* versus *всё*.

Bottom line: In 99,9% of cases it is clear for an average Russian reader which, *е* or *ё* is in this or that particular case.


----------



## Maroseika

jamtland76 said:


> Why?


Because according to the current rules ё is written only in the case of ambiguity (such as ведро - вёдро, признаем - признаём) or in the little known words and names.


----------



## Deem-A

morzh said:


> PS. Very much the same case was with "ъ". It was substituted by " ' "  (apostrophe), as many typewriters lacked it. Some people started doing it in writing. However it is still preferable to write it like it should be.



 I believe this isn't the same thing,since e without those 2 points it's written also in newspapers and even in some documents,while ''ъ'' is usually written everywhere. I personally dont' write ё . Maybe that's because in school I studied in Moldavian and Ukrainian,so no one actually taught me how to write.


----------



## morzh

Deem-A said:


> I believe this isn't the same thing,since e without those 2 points it's written also in newspapers and even in some documents,while ''ъ'' is usually written everywhere.



Yes, but both stem from the typesetting problems, trying to economize on extra characters.

In the Russian Typewriter there was "ё" (ЯЧСМИТЬБЮЁ) but not "ъ".
However in printing " ' " would look ugly, but "e" i/o "ё" looked OK and saved one literal.

Of course it is not the same. But the reasons are similar. People trying to get by as few types as possible.


----------



## Wertis

jamtland76 said:


> I read almost everywhere (not only in this forum) that many write "е" instead of "ё".
> For example "Н неё есть кошка" becomes "У нее есть кошка".
> Why? Aren't they different vowels with different pronunciations?



This is a very reasonable question and I've heard it from a Russian language learner for the first time in my life. I can guess why this problem doesn't worry many people. The reason why it's so is that "ё" isn't used very often in Russian words. As said above there are certain templates and rules accepted and enforced in publishing and as far as I know the letter "ё" isn't used there and is replaced with "е". I would be really interested to know why because so far I haven't made an attempt to find the answer to this question. I suspect that the letter "ё" was included in our modern alphabet practically latest when most letters had already been invented and used for some time. Maybe the reason is different. However note that even though you can substitute "е" for "ё" you can't do the opposite because it's illogical. Another very important thing is that the way these letters sound is different and here it isn't possible to ignore the rule because if you do so people might fail to understand the word or ask you to repeat it again in order to recognize it and correct wrong pronunciation. The sound produced by "е" is [ye] and that by "ё" is "yo". In both cases "y" is used as part of the sound, but the ends are different. 

When we see "е" in printed text we, Russians, always no what sound is meant beacsue we know how the word is pronounced. For a non-native this might prove to be a problem unless they remember  which sound to choose. There is no fixed rule and there can't be one. Anyway even if you confuse the pronouncation this won't be a very serious mistake because as a rule everyone will understand what you are going to say.


----------



## carsten

morzh said:


> This is due to some typesetting issues in publishing.
> Eventually it became acceptable to do so in typesetting, as in context it is always perfectly clear what it should be.
> 
> However if you have "ё" at your disposal, like on the keyboard, or if you handwrite, it is always preferable to use it.
> 
> PS. Very much the same case was with "ъ". It was substituted by " ' " (apostrophe), as many typewriters lacked it. Some people started doing it in writing. However it is still preferable to write it like it should be.


Seldom use of ё isn't caused by typesetting issues. ё as a letter was an afterthought (created and supported by only a few) that carried no additional meaning, so no one used it. I mean, you can't say "eventually it became acceptable to do so [to omit dots] in typesetting", because dots were "omitted" in typesetting long before ё was even invented. I guess ё wasn't picked up by publishers because of the typographical tradition


----------



## MaRussKa

as for me, a well educated russian speaker, I never use ё in writing... unless the sense is confusing..


----------



## Wertis

MaRussKa said:


> as for me, a well educated russian speaker, I never use ё in writing... unless the sense is confusing..



Why? What prevents you from using it? It's possible and moreover it's necessary to use it when you write something. We've dicussed some specific features inherent in typing, but when you use a pen there are no problems with "ё" when it's really necessary. When I was studying at school it was considered to be mistake when we wrote "е" Instead of "ё". If the letter exists it has to be used in the language.


----------



## morzh

MaRussKa said:


> as for me, a well educated russian speaker, I never use ё in writing... unless the sense is confusing..




Well....most people here, I think, are fairly well educated. Still, many of them use "ё". Unless you consider using "ё" a sign of a lack of education.

Personally, I consider not using "ё" (in cases of handwriting, not in cases of publishing) a sign of  personal laziness.

The reason is simple: Russian, as well as any language, is extremely redundant. It takes a huge effort to screw up a sentence so the intended meaning would become lost. One can even swap 100% of the letters places, or make 3-4 grammatical errors per word, and the absolute majority of the sentences will remain perfectly well understood.

Still, we follow some rules, and don't use phonetic spelling, trying to write "кОрова" and "железО" through "O", not "A".  Which, one could advocate, from pure communication point of view, is absolutely redundant.

Then why, making an effort to follow all those countless and very complex rules, existing in Russian, which, as well educated Russian speaker, you doubtlessly do, why don't you make a small extra effort, and use "dots" over "ё"?

Can't fathom this.


----------



## Wertis

morzh said:


> The reason is simple: Russian, as well as any language, is extremely redundant. It takes a huge effort to screw up a sentence so the intended meaning would become lost. One can even swap 100% of the letters places, or make 3-4 grammatical errors per word, and the absolute majority of the sentences will remain perfectly well understood.



It's clear why we can swap letters in a word but still be able to figure out the meaning and the correct spelling. Our brains have an approximating capacity. In mathematics approximation means finding a function that represents data samples obtained in an experiment or some other way. When we've found the approximating function we can also use it to determine values that are not within the interval in question. This might lead to inaccuracies and we need to check it of course. However this is possible and is often done. Our brains work the following way. For example we write "космодр". Definitely we're missing letters at the end. Our mind tells us that there is no such word "космодр" in Russian. The first thing we do is trying to find letters that are missing. Very quickly we get "космодр*ОМ*". When there are many ways of choosing letters at the end we reproduce them all in our memory and finally find the option that best suits the context. For example: "телеви". We can get "телеви*дение*" and "телеви*зор*". Depending on the context we choose one of these words. Scientifically this is called the approximating capacity of brains.


----------



## MaRussKa

Wertis: I don't need to use this letter if the sense is clear without those dots  and i don't really know people putting them except for kids at elementary school because they're taught to put them and leaving them out is considered to be a mistake.. but only at elementary school. i have never seen a problem in avoing ё in my writing  it's just not necessary for understanding what is written


----------



## Natalisha

MaRussKa said:


> and i don't really know people putting them except for kids at elementary school because they're taught to put them and leaving them out is considered to be a mistake.. but only at elementary school.


I'm very surprised. 

Sorry, I can't agree with you.


----------



## Wertis

MaRussKa said:


> Wertis: I don't need to use this letter if the sense is clear without those dots  and i don't really know people putting them except for kids at elementary school because they're taught to put them and leaving them out is considered to be a mistake.. but only at elementary school. i have never seen a problem in avoing ё in my writing  it's just not necessary for understanding what is written



Like Natalisha I don't agree either. If we are able to uderstand "е" in the meaning of "ё" let's do the same with soft sign ("ь") and hard sign ("ъ"). For example we can use only soft sign because hard sign requires us to add two very short lines when writing the letter and this is boring . You see what I mean, don't you? "Ё" is a rightful letter in the Russian alphabet and it should be used when necessary. If we want just to be understood we won't need  many letters and nearly half the alphabet will suffice


----------



## morzh

Does that mean we are not well-educated Russian speakers?


----------



## RhoKappa

I understand from all my Russian-speaking friends that ё is only written in children's books to help them pronounce words more correctly. There are many ways to pronounce the letter e, as it can be stressed or unstressed. Ё is the strongest stressed vowel that trumps all other vowels, and only in very rare instances would ё share stress with another vowel.

I suppose that people in Russian-speaking countries are to determine through context whether or not the letter e is stressed, unstressed or ё. As a beginning student I had much trouble figuring out how to pronounce the letter "e" as I see.

Most problematic with regard to the ё issue is the word все, which can either be все or всё.

Question to native speakers: is the letter ё a completely separate letter in the Russian alphabet altogether, or is it considered a stronger, double stress of the letter е?


----------



## WordOrder

RhoKappa said:


> Question to native speakers: is the letter ё a completely separate letter in the Russian alphabet altogether, or is it considered a stronger, double stress of the letter е?



It is a completely separate letter. Furthermore, despite optional usage of two dots it should be viewed as a single letter not an _e_ with a diacritical mark.


----------



## Wertis

RhoKappa said:


> I understand from all my Russian-speaking friends that ё is only written in children's books to help them pronounce words more correctly. There are many ways to pronounce the letter e, as it can be stressed or unstressed. Ё is the strongest stressed vowel that trumps all other vowels, and only in very rare instances would ё share stress with another vowel.
> 
> I suppose that people in Russian-speaking countries are to determine through context whether or not the letter e is stressed, unstressed or ё. As a beginning student I had much trouble figuring out how to pronounce the letter "e" as I see.
> 
> Most problematic with regard to the ё issue is the word все, which can either be все or всё.
> 
> Question to native speakers: is the letter ё a completely separate letter in the Russian alphabet altogether, or is it considered a stronger, double stress of the letter е?



"ё" and "е" are separate letters and shouldn't be confused or replaced with one another. In such examples as "все" and "всё" the choice is crucial because if we use the wrong letter the meaning will change. However even in words where it's always clear which letter has been used we must be careful and avoide disregarding the rules. I've already said that if we go on doing things like this very soon someone will suggest that we write "ь" instead of "ъ" and so on which will inevitably lead to the deterioration of the Russian language system.


----------



## morzh

RhoKappa said:


> Question to native speakers: is the letter ё a completely separate letter in the Russian alphabet altogether, or is it considered a stronger, double stress of the letter е?




There are no modified letters in Russian "ABC".  Every letter has it separate function. Like one military leader said, "every soldier has to know his own maneuver". And, there are no "foreign doubles" (like "i" and "greek i" in all Latin-spawned ABCs).

We have two letters with diacritics, "й" and "ё", and they are separate and do not intersect with others in their sound-producing functionality.


----------



## WordOrder

morzh said:


> We have two letters with diacritics, "й" and "ё"...



You forget about _щ_.


----------



## morzh

No I did not forget. I just don't think "Щ" has a diacritic (it is similar to "cedilla" but this is not it).
Although "Щ" indeed was derived from "Ш" (both from Hebrew abugida, "Shin") but then it is written with attached "tail", like "Ц".

I was only talking about detached diacritics.


----------



## Maroseika

Щ is usually considered as the ligature шт, according to the old (Bulgarian) pronunciation, so it is not a diacritic.
Old shape was like a trident with short handle. Maybe the final shape was influenced by ц.


----------



## morzh

Maroseika said:


> Щ is usually considered as the ligature шт, according to the old (Bulgarian) pronunciation, so it is not a diacritic.



Wasn't it actually called "шта" at some point?


----------



## Maroseika

In my Old-Slavonic dictionary it is called ща, but щ is transribed as шт. So - yes, it was.


----------

