# Discrepancy in stroke order of characters



## Wobby

Hi, it's me again! 

I'm probably just being really pedantic again, but just wanted to check about something rather than learn it wrong... The example I am currently thinking of at the moment is the double cross, such as the one on top of 英. There seems to be at least 3 different ways of writing the same thing, according to 3 different sources:

1) Down then across for the 1st cross, and across and down for the other
2) Down then across for the 1st cross, and the same for the second
3) One long across for both crosses, then a down stroke per cross

This inconsistency seems to carry through with characters with similar features such as 警, etc.

Is there always only one standard way of writing a character? If so, then 2 of the above sources are wrong? Or are there different valid ways of writing the same thing? If this is true, then would you just stick to one technique and use it consistently? Maybe a regional thing? Or does it just not matter at all, as long as it looks right, and stroke order is similar?

Hope I've not been too much of a bother opening a thread for such a short query, but I couldn't find a suitable thread to add it on... Thanks!


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## Zulis

I cannot say which one is the correct one, or the "only" correct and standard one.

I can only tell you that I am taught to write the strokes as in (1).
(2) could be a (rather strange) variation, but (3) looks sort of wrong to me.


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## shivasprogeny

The textbook I'm looking at no suggests a fourth variation:

Down then across for the first and second crosses.

I personally do one long stroke across and then two downward strokes and my native Chinese teacher has never mentioned it as being wrong.  It's quite possible many variations are acceptable.


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## CapnPrep

Strange, I go "across-down", then "down-across"!

I think the long horizontal line is typical for writing Japanese.

If you consider this "grass" radical to be two "ten" crosses (or if you think of the original form 艸) then it really should be "across-down, across-down". But I don't think everyone is taught that, and I know that not everyone actually does that.

It is important to learn the general principles of stroke order in order to determine stroke count (for looking things up in the dictionary). But then everyone develops their own quirks, within limits. And a lot of cursive characters are based on a stroke order that deviates from the standard.


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## Wobby

Thanks for the replies! Hmm... so it seems that people all write it in a different way. By the way, do you all consistently stick to the same way of writing the double cross, even in different characters? 

Oh yeah, I think I miswrote 2), it was actually down first, then across - the same one *shivasprogeny* was referring to. But it does seem there are at least 4 variations! Wouldn't 3) with the long stroke change the stroke number though? I wonder if the numbers vary accordingly in trying to look it up in different dictionaries...

That's interesting, because that's what I thought at first when I saw the two crosses likes this 艹, about how you could write it as two 'ten' crosses, across-down, across-down, but then I got a bit confused when I actually looked at how other sources thought it should be written! Well, it seems a bit difficult to know which one to go for right now!


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## palomnik

I do it as (3). But lest we forget, it's actually four strokes. Doing any less than that is actually a handwriting abbreviation, although admittedly my _Kodansha _gives it as three strokes, and they also write it in accordance with option (3), but Japanese don't always write _Kanji _the same as Chinese do.

My copy of 汉字快写法, published in Shanghai in 1965 and which is a handy little book, also writes it according to option (3).


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## CapnPrep

Wobby said:


> Wouldn't 3) with the long stroke change the stroke number though? I wonder if the numbers vary accordingly in trying to look it up in different dictionaries...


Yes. The character 英 has 8 strokes according to Japanese dictionaries, but 9 in Chinese dictionaries.


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## Zulis

CapnPrep said:


> Yes. The character 英 has 8 strokes according to Japanese dictionaries, but 9 in Chinese dictionaries.


Yes it has 9 strokes. (traditional)

Edit: Samantha, great observation


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## samanthalee

In Japanese _and_ Chinese *Simplified* Characters dictionaries, 英 has 8 strokes. But 英 has 9 strokes in Chinese *Traditional *Characters dictionaries.

If you refer to the websites of (1) and (2), you'll see that the word "country" is written in Traditional Characters 國 [It's the 3rd character in the header of (1) and part of the definition in (2)] These 2 websites will therefore be providing stroke orders for Traditional Characters.

The website of (3) provides stroke order animation for Simplified Characters only. Hence you'll see 英 written with 8 strokes here instead of 9.

(Here's a little experiment I did to prove that website #3 does not provide stroke orders for Traditional Characters: Below the character definition, there is a list of words/compound characters. Look for "英國 Britain" and "英国 Britain" in the list. When you click on 國 on the list, you won't see any stroke order demo. But when you click on 国 in the same list, you'll be shown the way to write 国 in Simplified Character.)

So Wobby, you'll have to find out whether you are learning to write in Simplified Characters or Traditional Characters.


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## moonflowersong

Personally for me, since I write in Simplified Chinese, I do one stroke across and then two down, as said in 3) and there are 8 strokes altogether. 

I agree with what Samanthalee said so it's all just the difference between Simplified and Traditional Chinese characters.


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## Wobby

Thanks for the replies! 

Ah, that probably explains it then, I didn't think of Simplified and Traditional ways of writing an identical-looking character being different. I just assumed since they were identical characters, they were written the same way. So if I were learning Simplified, I wouldn't have to worry about the fact that there were various way to write it traditionally, I would just use method 3)? So is that the way is written by most people in Mainland China? I guess I have to be a bit more careful about these cases where I assumed you just learnt the traditional version to learn the simplified version, as they looked the same... Are there any similar sorts of cases where the characters seem to be the same, but aren't? Now I'm worried that that I'm mixing up traditional and simplified! 

I guess that still leaves the question open for those who write in Traditional Chinese which method to go for. Wikipedia seems to quote 1) as being the 'official' stroke order for traditional characters...


Found another one like this, zero, 零:
1) Above the 'roof', there are two pairs of lines either side. The bottom part is drawn with a 丶.
2) Above the 'roof', the lines form something like a cross-hair. The bottom part is drawn with a -.


I guess 1) is the simplified version?


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## palomnik

It's worth remembering at this point that in many cases the simplified forms of characters were developed by adopting widespread handwriting conventions and "institutionalizing" them. That explains why 英 has nine strokes in traditional characters and eight strokes in simplified ones, even though they are in fact written the same, except in very careful writing in the traditional style.

Wobby, I can't open the second website you sent, but if I understand you correctly I think that these are just stylistic differences in typefaces.


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## samanthalee

Hi Wobby, I would say that those are just different styles of writing 零。Personally I write the 2 pairs of lines as 2 pairs of dots as seen in the attached picture. 
You should be writing the top part the same way as the way you'd write 雨 (rain)。


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## aaron792

moonflowersong said:


> Personally for me, since I write in Simplified Chinese, I do one stroke across and then two down, as said in 3) and there are 8 strokes altogether.
> 
> I agree with what Samanthalee said so it's all just the difference between Simplified and Traditional Chinese characters.


 I do the same.


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## Wobby

Ah, OK, thanks everyone! Tt makes more sense (and easier to remember ) for it to be two pairs of dots if it is the rain character, and a dot at the bottom instead of 4 lines and a dot, it's just I wasn't sure, as Cojak had both symbols, but in the rain part of 零, it drew it specifically like 2 pairs of horizontal lines - not quite sure how the four dots of rain managed to get turned into a sort of cross in the traditional version, but nevermind, I'll just go with drawing it with all dots.


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