# yaptır vs. yapsın - [Grammar]



## kenjoluma

I think that those two mean 'Make (someone) do!' right?

Let's say there is a little brother who doesn't want to go to school. Mother is not home and she asks the big brother to make sure his brother goes to school.

In that context, which one is correct for the mother to say? 

(1) Arkadaşını okula gittir!
(2) Arkadaşını okula gitsin!

I don't think there's any difference, so whenever I write it, I'm confused with which one to choose.


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## Rallino

The -dir suffix called "causative" is used when you say: make sb do something / get sb to do something.

As you "make someone" + <insert a verb here>, that "someone" is usually "dative".

For example: Make your friend write a letter. --> Arkadaşın*a* bir mektup yazdır.

The -sin is imperative 3rd person, as well as the obsolete tense: subjunctive 3rd person second form. It is usually translated as: _Tell him/her to do!_ Thus an indirect order.

Arkadaşın bir mektup yazsın! = Tell your friend to write a letter!
Notice that it's "arkadaşın", because that's already the subject of the sentence, it can't be accusative as you wrote in your example.

What's the difference between:
1. Arkadaşına bir mektup yazdır.
2. Arkadaşın bir mektup yazsın.

The meanings are so close that you can use either of them.

In your examples however only number 2 is possible.

First reason: "Gittir" doesn't exist in Turkish. The causative of _gitmek _and_ gelmek_ are irregular.
Gitmek --> götürmek
Gelmek --> Getirmek

However: "götürmek" and "getirmek" don't mean _make him go/come_. They are used differently, they mean: To take/bring something or someone there/here.
Therefore, it is possible to say _Arkadaşını okula götür!_ But that would mean, _take your friend to school_.

To say: "make your friend go to school", we would use a different phrasing and say: _Arkadaşını okula gönder _(lit. send your friend to school) or some such thing.


Number (2): _Arkadaşını okula gitsin!_ would be correct if you used nominative:* Arkadaşın okula gitsin.* Because "gitsin" is the verb for 'arkadaşın', and therefore _arkadaşın_ is the subject. It should be nominative.


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## Black4blue

Rallino said:


> The -dir suffix called "causative" is used when you say: make sb do something / get sb to do something.
> 
> As you "make someone" + <insert a verb here>, that "someone" is usually "dative".
> 
> For example: Make your friend write a letter. --> Arkadaşın*a* bir mektup yazdır.
> 
> The -sin is imperative 3rd person, as well as the obsolete tense: subjunctive 3rd person second form. It is usually translated as: _Tell him/her to do!_ Thus an indirect order.
> 
> Arkadaşın bir mektup yazsın! = Tell your friend to write a letter!
> Notice that it's not "arkadaşın", because that's already the subject of the sentence, it can't be accusative as you wrote in your example.
> 
> What's the difference between:
> 1. Arkadaşına bir mektup yazdır.
> 2. Arkadaşın bir mektup yazsın.
> 
> The meanings are so close that you can use either of them.
> 
> In your examples however only number 2 is possible.
> 
> First reason: "Gittir" doesn't exist in Turkish. The causative of _gitmek _and_ gelmek_ are irregular.
> Gitmek --> götürmek
> Gelmek --> Getirmek
> 
> However: "götürmek" and "getirmek" don't mean _make him go/come_. They are used differently, they mean: To take/bring something or someone there/here.
> Therefore, it is possible to say _Arkadaşını okula götür!_ But that would mean, _take your friend to school_.
> 
> To say: "make your friend go to school", we would use a different phrasing and say: _Arkadaşını okula gönder _(lit. send your friend to school) or some such thing.
> 
> 
> Number (2): _Arkadaşını okula gitsin!_ would be correct if you used nominative:* Arkadaşın okula gitsin.* Because "gitsin" is the verb for 'arkadaşın', and therefore _arkadaşın_ is the subject. It should be nominative.


 
I must say, what a clear explanation!


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## Rallino

Black4blue said:


> I must say, what a clear explanation!


 
Thanks, mate!


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## kenjoluma

As always, thank you Rallino.

One more question:

Çocuklar televisyona bak*sın*!
Çocuklar*a* televisyona bak*tır*!

All above are correct?


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## dilantoplu

Çocuklar televizyona baksın. is correct, but
Çocuklara televizyona baktır! is not.

In fact in Turkish, we don't use the second one. But if you insist, its correct form is "Çocukları televizyona baktır." 

But, instead of "televizyona bakmak", you could say "televizyon seyretmek". It is more correct. The first one is "looking at TV" and the second one is "watching TV".


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## Rallino

I think I've invented a rule. I can delete this post if someone can come up with an example that nullifies this rule.

In the original post your example was:
_
Arkadaşın*a* mektup yazdır._
(dative)

And in the final post you gave a clumsy yet grammatically correct example:_

Çocuklar*ı* televizyona baktır._
(accusative)

How to decide between accusative and dative? 

Take a look at the first sentence: _.... mektup yazdır._ "Yazdırmak" takes a direct object. Therefore mektup is in nominative or accusative. You can automatically make the other one "arkadaşın" dative. (Long story short: If one is accusative, the other is dative.)

In  the second example: _.... televizyona baktır. _"Bakmak" takes dative, therefore "televizyon" is dative. So you can automatically make the other thing "accusative" --> Çocukları.

Again, I'm not sure, I'm just trying to find a shortcut to all this mess.


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## kenjoluma

I am really not sure if I fully understood this or not. Give me some time to figure out whether I did or not.

Thank you so much, both of you, Rallino and dilantoplu. I know 'televizyon' is more suitable with 'izlemek' or, as dilantoplu mentioned, 'seyretmek'. But I just needed to use 'bakmak' for some reasons...


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## tzesyneas

Hello!
I'm not a native speaker but I wıll try to explain how I learnt it hoping that will help..so if my answer is not correct I will try to delete the answer.
Suffix dir/tir/ir etc. has two roles:
*1*. Makes the verb transitive. 
ex. Yemek bitti. 
      Ben gittim. 
These verbs are not transitive. That means that the energy/action of the verb doesn't acting on an object. With the suffix tir/dir/ir verbs have energy to act on an object:
ex. Ben yemeğim*i* bit*tir*dim.
*2*. Makes the verb causative. A verb that is already transitive/acting on an object takes the suffixes tir/dir/ir etc. to show that we did something to somebody/something else *using/via another person or that we make someone do something*:
ex. a) *Ben* ayakkabım*ı* tamir ettim.
b) *Ben* ayakkabım*ı* tamirci*ye* tamir et*tir*dim.
In this examples *Ben* is the subject of the verb in both a) and b) sentences. But, in the second sentence tamirci is the 'subject' in the real world: the person that did all the work. The person that we assign the action at takes dative. 
Other examples: Saçlarımı kestim. (that means by myself)
                       Saçlarımı (kuaför*e*) kes*tir*dim. (I think we understand that I asked the hairdresser to cut my hair: i had a haircut)

Well, there is a third occassion: Yemeğimi köpeğe bitir*t*tim. (bit-tir-t-im)
First *-tir-* makes bitmek transitive so we can give it the object yemeğimi. Second *-t-* allows us to assiggn the action to the word with dative (köpeğ*e*).

So:  Arkadaşına bir mektup yazdır. (write a letter using/via your friend)
Arkadaşın bir mektup yazsın. (your friend should write a letter)

Kardeşin ilaçı içsin (your brother should drink the drug)
Kardeşine ilaçı içtir. (make your brother to drink the drug/ give the drug to your brother)

I'm so sorry for my bad English or Greek-lish.. I hope the explanation is helpfull. Though, in my oppinion, you will understand better by paying attention to the native speakers talk, written or oral. Good luck!


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## Rallino

I think Tzesyneas has explained perfectly. Only one thing:


> [...]
> Kardeşin ilaçı ilacı içsin (your brother should drink the drug)
> Kardeşine ilaçı ilacı içtir.  (make your brother to drink the drug/ give the drug to your brother)
> [...]



We don't say "içtir"; it simply doesn't exist. The causative of "içmek" is *içirmek*.

_>>Kardeşine ilacı içir._

Good job, Tzesyneas.


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## tzesyneas

Rallino said:


> I think Tzesyneas has explained perfectly. Only one thing:
> 
> 
> We don't say "içtir"; it simply doesn't exist. The causative of "içmek" is *içirmek*.
> 
> _>>Kardeşine ilacı içir._
> 
> Good job, Tzesyneas.



Thank you Rallino for your comments, the correction and for giving me the pass to add something: Rules about when we use *tir/dir* or* ir* are not very strict. We should learn theses verbs from lists. For ex. içmek will be iç*ir*mek and nor içtirmek (like ı wrote), bitmek will be bit*ir*mek, yemek-ye*dir*mek etc. Best way to learn them is using lists and your instinct that will be developed by paying attention to native speakers.

Here's some more examples wıth bakmak/baktırmak that you wanted to use:
Leyla teyze fal bakıyor. (Leyla is telling fortunes)
Ayşe, Leyla teyze*ye* fal bak*tır*ıyor. (Ayşe is using aunt Leyla to tell her her fortunes/learns her fortune from Leyla aunt)

Fal baksın. (she should tell fortunes)
Fal baktırsın. (she should ask someone to tell her her fortune)


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## Black4blue

Rallino said:


> I think I've invented a rule. I can delete this post if someone can come up with an example that nullifies this rule.
> 
> In the original post your example was:
> 
> _Arkadaşın*a* mektup yazdır._
> (dative)
> 
> And in the final post you gave a clumsy yet grammatically correct example:
> 
> _Çocuklar*ı* televizyona baktır._
> (accusative)
> 
> How to decide between accusative and dative?
> 
> Take a look at the first sentence: _.... mektup yazdır._ "Yazdırmak" takes a direct object. Therefore mektup is in nominative or accusative. You can automatically make the other one "arkadaşın" dative. (Long story short: If one is accusative, the other is dative.)
> 
> In the second example: _.... televizyona baktır. _"Bakmak" takes dative, therefore "televizyon" is dative. So you can automatically make the other thing "accusative" --> Çocukları.
> 
> Again, I'm not sure, I'm just trying to find a shortcut to all this mess.


 
In my opinion, all transitive verbs which we want to make causative (_oldurgan fiiller_) always take _dative_. Yes, we can make accusative stuff like "_baktırmak_" if we force. But they don't make much sense. 
This is my personal opinion like I said before but yes, I guess all sensible causative transitive verbs take dative. 
This is not valid for causaitve untransitive verbs. (_onu uyutmak_)

Sorry for my bad English.


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## Rallino

Black4blue said:


> In my opinion, all transitive verbs which we want to make causative (_oldurgan fiiller_) always take _dative_. Yes, we can make accusative stuff like "_baktırmak_" if we force. But they don't make much sense.
> This is my personal opinion like I said before but yes, I guess all sensible causative transitive verbs take dative.
> This is not valid for causaitve untransitive verbs. (_onu uyutmak_)



I agree with that.


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## kenjoluma

Thank you everyone. I think I learned valuable lessons on causative verbs.

1. The object of -tir should be a dative noun.
2. The object (or subject? depending on your viewpoint) of -sin should be a nominative noun.

But, here, regarding #1, Black4blue said -tir (causative verb) always takes dative nouns, while Rallino said if there is already dative, another noun(the recipient of action) should be accusative. And I am confused.

I know it is getting old, but what if I need to say something like, 'I made my friend look at himself in the mirror'? 

1. Arkadaşımı kendisine baktırdım
2. Arkadaşıma kendisine baktırdım
3. Arkadaşıma kendisini baktırdım
4. Arkadaşımı kendisini baktırdım

Among too many options here, of which only one would be correct I presume, I am completely lost. According to Rallino, the correct answer should be #1. However, according to Black4blue, it should be #2 (because black4blue said it always should be dative) 

(#3 and #4 are... well, definitely the options that I will never choose)


My apology for making this simple question long and tiring. But could you guys help me? I really need to get to the bottom of this.


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## Rallino

> 1. Arkadaşımı kendisine baktırdım
> 
> 2. Arkadaşıma kendisine baktırdım  Two datives for one verb: impossible.
> 
> 3. Arkadaşıma kendisini baktırdım  It sounds like: «I made *himself* look at my friend», instead of «I made *my friend *look at himself.» _This is grammatically not wrong, but doesn't make much sense, really._
> 
> 4. Arkadaşımı kendisini baktırdım  Two direct objects for one verb: impossible.


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## kenjoluma

Now it's crystal clear. THANK YOU!


ps. isn't it, like, 2 in the morning in Turkey? Thanks a million for your answer in this crazy hour.


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