# Ger. Kamin/Sp. camino: any connexion?



## Arrius

German *der Kamin, *derived according to _Duden_ from Latin *caminus*, _a furnace (sicut in camino ardenti,_ Revelations I _)_, means _fireplace_ and in the South, also_ chimney_ (the English word, via French _cheminée_, which contains the French word _chemin = road/way_, having apparently the same origin).The morphologically similar *el camino* in Spanish means _road _or _way_.
I wonder if there is a connexion here, my theory being that _a fireplace and a chimney provide a *way *out for the smoke of a fire_.
The Real Academia give the origin of the Spanish word as "_Celto-latin *camminus*, a word of hispanic origin; cf the Celto-iberian *camanon"*._ This does not help much as I know little or nothing about the Celtic languages.
Is my explanation of a German-Latin-Spanish connexion correct, or just yet another bizarre coincidence?


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## sokol

*Kluge, Etymologisches Wörterbuch* gives another etymology, not related to Spanish 'camino': Latin 'caminus' = 'furnace' < Greek 'kaminos' = 'oven'.

Theoretically, as you say, the semantic relation between Spanish and German words _could _be bridged, but it seems that this is not the case here.


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## Arrius

You have added the older Greek cognate to the Latin one I already gave. Latin and Greek roots are often similar. If the connexion I suspected does not exist, then this is one of the weirdest coincidences (especially in view of the French chemin/cheminée) I have come across in _Volksetymologie_. 
I have just checked in Larousse and found that whereas _chemin _(road) comes from the word _camminus_ said to be of vulgar Latin origin and a word used in Gaulish, which would be mainly Celtic, _cheminée_ comes from the Latin_ caminus_, which we have already mentioned, but I do not know whether _camminus _with two m's has any relation to the latter word with one.


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## sokol

From what you have dug up:
- Latin 'camino' > French 'cheminée', English 'chimney', German 'Kamin
- vulgar Latin (be it of Gaulish or Iberic origin) 'cammino' > French 'chemin', Spanish 'camino'
the similarity of both words indeed looks like a very strange coincidence as they often happen with languages.
In fact, your own answer was much more helpful than mine which wasn't much more than looking up a word in the dictionary. 

And yes, one thing which is really interesting here is that in French 'chemin' and 'cheminée' do so obviously look like cognates - and nevertheless the meaning between the two never seems to have been mixed up (or have they?), in which case I'd say that this is a further argument in favour of the similarities being coincidence.
But as you I know next to nothing about Celtic languages.


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## Arrius

Assuming that the resemblance is, in fact, pure coincidence, it is a lesson to us not to jump too easily to conclusions about the origin of a word. The weirdest coincidence I have so far come across was that, contrary to the belief of many arabists, the Arabic word for graveyard مَقْبَرَة _maqbara _was not the origin of our word _macabre_ or _makaber_, which in fact came from a person's name in Hebrew who was involved in an historic massacre! This also yielded the French slang word for corpse, _macabée_, also nothing to do with the Arabic word.​


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## gatto

Just to add my little bit...
In Italian the words are _camino_ (fireplace but also chimney) and _cammino_ (walk, path). So here actually the link is a Latin origin for all the words you cited...
Hope it was of some interest


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## robbie_SWE

In Romanian we have the word *cămin* (a type of fireplace; also *şemineu *< Fr. _cheminée_), but not a similar word for "path" (which in Romanian is *cale* < Lat. _callis_). 

 robbie


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## Arrius

_Tak så mycket_ to* robbie SWE*. Incidentally, as you may already know, Spanish has both _calle_ (a street in a town) and _camino_ (thoroughfare, highway), as well as _chimenea _for chimney/fireplace.
And _molte grazie_ to *gatto:* I have subsequently looked in both my Classical and Mediaeval/Church Latin dictionaries for a word connected with_ cammino_ with two m's and been unable to find anything. This is not surprising, as the Italian Online Etymological Dictionary ascribes a Celtic origin to this Italian word. (perhaps it may have been brought back by legionaries who did an awful lot lot of "camminàre" in their conquest of Gaul, but it never became respectable enough to get into the dictionary until Latin had become Italian). The source already cited even links the word to German _kommen,_ past tense _kam_, and consequently to English come/came:
http://www.etimo.it/?term=cammino&find=Cerca
Thus it would appear that* Kamin* and *camino *have discrete Graeco-Latin and Celtic origins respectively, "and never the twain shall meet" as Kipling says, though, of course, all the languages we have mentioned in our search are Indo-european.


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## tompoly

Arrius said:


> German *der Kamin, *derived according to _Duden_ from Latin *caminus*, _a furnace (sicut in camino ardenti,_ Revelations I _)_, means _fireplace_ and in the South, also_ chimney_ (the English word, via French _cheminée_, which contains the French word _chemin = road/way_, having apparently the same origin).The morphologically similar *el camino* in Spanish means _road _or _way_.
> I wonder if there is a connexion here, my theory being that _a fireplace and a chimney provide a *way *out for the smoke of a fire_.
> The Real Academia give the origin of the Spanish word as "_Celto-latin *camminus*, a word of hispanic origin; cf the Celto-iberian *camanon"*._ This does not help much as I know little or nothing about the Celtic languages.
> Is my explanation of a German-Latin-Spanish connexion correct, or just yet another bizarre coincidence?



"Kamen" is a common Slavic word for stone, the material from which chimneys and older roads were made. Connection, or another coincidence?


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## Maroseika

tompoly said:


> "Kamen" is a common Slavic word for stone, the material from which chimneys and older roads were made. Connection, or another coincidence?


Looks like just a coincidence, because earlier Slavic form was *kamy < *okmen < IE *аk(ə)mеn- < *ak - sharp.
IE cognates: 
Ancient Indian asma - stone, sky
Ancient Persin asman - sky
Ancinet Iselandic hamarr - rock, cliff
Ancient German hamar - hammer (originally from stone)
Ancient Greek αχμον - anvil (originally from stone)

Metathesis *kamen < *okmen is considered as merely Slavic phenomenon, however even the form with "o" (*okmen) is also peculiar only to Slavic languages, while even Baltic languages preserved IE "a" as in Lithuanian akmuo - stone.

By the way, here is one more funny coincidence: Ger. Kamin - Rus. kamenka.
Russian каменка (kamenka) is an oven without a chimney (black heating), called as such  just because it is built from stone.


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## apmoy70

Maroseika said:


> Looks like just a coincidence, because earlier Slavic form was *kamy < *okmen < IE *аk(ə)mеn- < *ak - sharp.
> IE cognates:
> ... Ancient Greek *αχμον - anvil* (originally from stone)


A minor correction if I may, it's *«ἄκμων» ắkmōn (masc.)*.


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## origumi

Arrius said:


> The weirdest coincidence I have so far come across was that, contrary to the belief of many arabists, the Arabic word for graveyard مَقْبَرَة _maqbara _was not the origin of our word _macabre_ or _makaber_, which in fact came from a person's name in Hebrew who was involved in an historic massacre! This also yielded the French slang word for corpse, _macabée_, also nothing to do with the Arabic word.


I know that the etymology Maccabee -> Macabre appears in the OED, and yet it sounds like an amateurish folk etymology. Other sources say "uncertain origin".


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## Quiviscumque

origumi said:


> I know that the etymology Maccabee -> Macabre appears in the OED, and yet it sounds like an amateurish folk etymology. Other sources say "uncertain origin".



A lot of theories, really. Vid. http://www.cnrtl.fr/etymologie/macabr%C3%A9


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## Maroseika

apmoy70 said:


> A minor correction if I may, it's *«ἄκμων» ắkmōn (masc.)*.



Thank you for your correction, now I see why I could not find it in my Greek dictionary, it was recognition error in my scanned source.


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## LilianaB

Maroseika said:


> Looks like just a coincidence, because earlier Slavic form was *kamy < *okmen < IE *аk(ə)mеn- < *ak - sharp.
> IE cognates:
> Ancient Indian asma - stone, sky
> Ancient Persin asman - sky
> Ancinet Iselandic hamarr - rock, cliff
> Ancient German hamar - hammer (originally from stone)
> Ancient Greek αχμον - anvil (originally from stone)
> 
> Metathesis *kamen < *okmen is considered as merely Slavic phenomenon, however even the form with "o" (*okmen) is also peculiar only to Slavic languages, while even Baltic languages preserved IE "a" as in Lithuanian akmuo - stone.
> 
> By the way, here is one more funny coincidence: Ger. Kamin - Rus. kamenka.
> Russian каменка (kamenka) is an oven without a chimney (black heating), called as such  just because it is built from stone.



Road is "kelias" in Lithuanian. I don't know if it is related to "akmuo" or something else. Street is "gatve".


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## bibax

Maroseika said:


> By the way, here is one more funny coincidence: Ger. Kamin - Rus. kamenka.
> Russian каменка (kamenka) is an oven without a chimney (black heating), called as such  just because it is built from stone.


In Czech *kamna* (dim. *kamínka*) means stove (stufa, estufa, печь, der Ofen), probably from Italian _camino_, not from kámen = stone. But who knows?


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## LilianaB

In Polish "komin" means chimney and also in Lithuanian, of course, "kaminas" -- chimney. "Kauliukas" is also stone. I am not sure if they are related.


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## bibax

Polish komin is from Czech komín that is from Romance 'camino' (Lat. caminus, Greek kaminos).

Czech *komín* (chimney) and *kamna* (stove) are from camino.
Czech *komnata* (chamber, die Kemenate; originally a room with stove) is from caminata.

Similarity with kámen (stone) is merely a coincidence.


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## Maroseika

bibax said:


> In Czech *kamna* (dim. *kamínka*) means stove (stufa, estufa, печь, der Ofen), probably from Italian _camino_, not from kámen = stone. But who knows?


Does it have a chimney? 
In Russian baths (also in Finnish saunas) stove really consists of a heap of stones with the fire chamber beneath. Such stove can be built offhand in any place such as a hunter's cabin or even in the open air.
Besides, the word камин was not known to the common people in the 19 century, it was used only in the noble houses, while каменка was widely spread.


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## apmoy70

In Greek, the colloquial name of chimney is *«καμινάδα»* [kami'naða] (fem.), which is a re-loan < Venetian caminada < Lat. caminus < Gr. «κάμινος».
On the other hand we do use *«κάμινος»* ['kaminos] (fem.) for the furnace, while for the kiln or any small-scale furnace, we use *«καμίνι»* [ka'mini] < Byz. Gr. neuter diminutive *«καμίνιον» kamínion* of feminine noun «κάμινος».


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## Thomas1

bibax said:


> Polish komin is from Czech komín that is from Romance 'camino' (Lat. caminus, Greek kaminos).
> 
> Czech *komín* (chimney) and *kamna* (stove) are from camino.
> Czech *komnata* (chamber, die Kemenate; originally a room with stove) is from caminata.
> 
> Similarity with kámen (stone) is merely a coincidence.


I'm probably splitting hairs, but Polish 'komin' derives from German Kamin (_cf._ Doroszewski). Except for 'chimney', it can also mean 'oven' or 'cooker' in certain dialects.


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## francisgranada

Hungarian *kémény *(chimney).

According to this online etym. diccionary _kémény _< _komen _(Serbo-Croatian) < _kamin _(Old High German) < _caminus _(Vulgar Latin) < _kaminos _(Greek)


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## bibax

Maroseika said:


> Does it have a chimney?
> In Russian baths (also in Finnish saunas) stove really consists of a heap of stones with the fire chamber beneath. Such stove can be built offhand in any place such as a hunter's cabin or even in the open air.
> Besides, the word камин was not known to the common people in the 19 century, it was used only in the noble houses, while каменка was widely spread.





Thomas1 said:


> I'm probably splitting hairs, but Polish 'komin' derives from German Kamin (cf. Doroszewski). Except for 'chimney', it can also mean 'oven' or 'cooker' in certain dialects.





francisgranada said:


> Hungarian kémény (chimney).
> 
> According to this online etym. diccionary kémény < komen (Serbo-Croatian) < kamin (Old High German) < caminus (Vulgar Latin) < kaminos (Greek)


According to V. Machek the Slavs originally had ovens/stoves without any chimney (the fume went trough a hole in the roof). Later they learned to build the chimneys from the Romance nations. In Czech and Serbo-Croatian the word komín/komin is directly from Romance camino (not necessarily via German), assumed Machek.

In Old Czech the word komín meant both chimney and stove with a chimney. According to Machek Polish komin is from Old Czech rather than from OHG.

In Czech the word kamna is newer than komín and meant any stove with a chimney. Now kamna is a general word for any type of stove/heater, even without a chimney (electrical storage heater = el. akumulační kamna).


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