# weil ihr Deutsch Spaß gemacht hat / weil Deutsch ihr Spaß gemacht hat (case, position)



## Wonderingnight

Hallo zusammen,

I know that the positions of cases in German are really different from English, and I saw a sentence from my textbook:
Sie hat als Kind einen Deutschkurs an der staatlichen Sprachschule besucht und später am Gymnasium weiter Deutsch gelernt, *weil ihr Deutsch Spaß gemacht hat*.

I don't understand the part in bold, which is the subordinate clause. If I don't get it wrong, the nominative (subject) is Deutsch; the dative is ihr; and the accusative is Spaß.
Then why dative *ihr *in this sentence goes before *the subject*? Shouldn't the subject go first, and then the dative and accusative?
BTW, I know in a subordinate clause the verb and the auxiliary should be put in the end of it.

Also, I have already known the rules of the positions of cases as following:
In a sentence, the subject is at the first sentential position, and ...

1. If both dative and accusative are nouns, *the dative* should go before the accusative.
Ich schenke Jens ein Buch zum Geburtstag.

2. If both dative and accusative are pronouns, the *accusative* should go before the dative.
Ich schenke es ihm zum Geburtstag.

3. If the dative is pronoun, and the accusative is noun, *the dative* should go before the accusative.
Ich schenke ihm ein Buch zum Geburtstag.

4. If the dative is noun, and the accusative is pronoun, *the accusative* should go before the dative.
Ich schenke es Jens zum Geburtstag.

Namely, in a sentence, normally a subject always goes before a dative and an accusative in the first sentential position, and then the dative should go before the accusative, but if the accusative is a pronoun, then the accusative should go before the dative instead.
However, the sentence in my textbook doesn't follow these rules.
Therefore, I wonder if there are other rules of positions of cases which involve the subject, dative and accusative.


----------



## Gernot Back

Wonderingnight said:


> Sie hat als Kind einen Deutschkurs an der staatlichen Sprachschule besucht und später am Gymnasium weiter Deutsch gelernt, *weil ihr Deutsch Spaß gemacht hat*.
> 
> I don't understand the part in bold, which is the subordinate clause. If I don't get it wrong, the nominative (subject) is Deutsch; the dative is ihr; and the accusative is Spaß.


_Spaß machen_ is the predicate here, which you put in the end in a German subordinate clause. _She _has been introduced in the main clause already, so _she _(_ihr_) is no new information and, subsequently, we mention this old information before the new one. Otherwise there would be no *point*! That has nothing to do with cases at all!

canoonet - Word order: Mittelfeld: Old before new


----------



## bearded

Isn't the phrase ''Weil ihr Deutsch Spaß gemacht hat''  somewhat ambiguous? It might be interpreted as ''because her German (the way she speaks German) has been funny'' - in my opinion. Maybe - for the purpose of desambiguation - the word order ''Weil Deutsch ihr Spaß gemacht hat'' would be possible.


----------



## Wonderingnight

Gernot Back said:


> _Spaß machen_ is the predicate here, which you put in the end in a German subordinate clause. _She _has been introduced in the main clause already, so _she _(_ihr_) is no new information and, subsequently, we mention this old information before the new one. Otherwise there would be no *point*! That has nothing to do with cases at all!
> 
> canoonet - Word order: Mittelfeld: Old before new


Sorry for my bad expression. I am just curious about why the subordinate clause is "*weil ihr Deutsch Spaß gemacht hat*" but not "*weil Deutsch ihr Spaß gemacht hat*"?
Shouldn't the subject go first? Then the dative and accusative? Why here the _She (ihr/dative) _go first?


----------



## Gernot Back

bearded man said:


> Isn't the phrase ''Weil ihr Deutsch Spaß gemacht hat'' not somewhat ambiguous? It might be interpreted ''because her German (the way she speaks German) has been funny'' - in my opinion. Maybe - for the purpose of desambiguation - the word order ''Weil Deutsch ihr Spaß gemacht hat'' would be possible.


I don't think it was her intention to be funny with her German and I think even less that this was her motivation to continue studying German!


----------



## Gernot Back

Wonderingnight said:


> Why here the _She (ihr/dative) _go first?


Because _she_ (_ihr_ [dative]) is the older information, not even worth being mentioned as anything more than a pronoun, while _Deutsch _is the newer and more relevant information, worth being mentioned as a full noun (again)!

Compare:

_Sie hat als Kind einen Deutschkurs an der staatlichen Sprachschule besucht und später am Gymnasium weiter Deutsch gelernt, weil *ihr Deutsch* Spaß gemacht hat.

Sie hat als Kind einen Deutschkurs an der staatlichen Sprachschule besucht und später am Gymnasium weiter Deutsch gelernt, weil *es ihr* Spaß gemacht hat._​


----------



## Wonderingnight

bearded man said:


> Isn't the phrase ''Weil ihr Deutsch Spaß gemacht hat''  somewhat ambiguous? It might be interpreted ''because her German (the way she speaks German) has been funny'' - in my opinion. Maybe - for the purpose of desambiguation - the word order ''Weil Deutsch ihr Spaß gemacht hat'' would be possible.


Really interesting! I didn't think about that before. Maybe it's because the sentence I quoted is from an article in my textbook. Therefore, the meaning you mentioned may not fit in the whole article.
The next sentence is "Sie hat sich sehr für die deutsche Literatur interessiert und viel gelesen."


----------



## bearded

Gernot Back said:


> I don't think it was her intention to be funny with her German and I think even less that this was her motivation to continue studying German!


So the real meaning can only be deduced from context...?


----------



## Gernot Back

bearded man said:


> So the real meaning can only be deduced from context...?


Yes, I guess so, because intonation and pauses of the sentence wouldn't necessarily give a clue!


----------



## Gernot Back

Wonderingnight said:


> Really interesting! I didn't think about that before. Maybe it's because the sentence I quoted is from an article in my textbook. Therefore, the meaning you mentioned may not fit in the whole article.
> The next sentence is "Sie hat sich sehr für die deutsche Literatur interessiert und viel gelesen."


Textbook articles are very artificial anyway! Nothing can top *German* literature! 


bearded man said:


> the word order ''Weil Deutsch ihr Spaß gemacht hat'' would be possible.


Of course that would be possible, too!
You never make a mistake when positioning the subordinate-clause subject directly after the conjunction!


----------



## JClaudeK

bearded man said:


> Maybe - for the purpose of desambiguation - the word order ''Weil Deutsch ihr Spaß gemacht hat'' would be possible.


In my opinion, ''weil Deutsch ihr Spaß gemacht hat'' *is* possible, and not  for the purpose of desambiguation.


Gernot Back said:


> Because _she_ (_ihr_ [dative]) is the older information, not even worth being mentioned as anything more than a pronoun, while _Deutsch _is the newer and more relevant information, worth being mentioned as a full noun (again)!


OK, but there is no rule (as far as I know) which makes this word order compulsory.
Edit: Crossed with Gernot's last answer.


----------



## Wonderingnight

Gernot Back said:


> Because _she_ (_ihr_ [dative]) is the older information, not even worth being mentioned as anything more than a pronoun, while _Deutsch _is the newer and more relevant information, worth being mentioned as a full noun (again)!
> 
> Compare:
> 
> _Sie hat als Kind einen Deutschkurs an der staatlichen Sprachschule besucht und später am Gymnasium weiter Deutsch gelernt, weil *ihr Deutsch* Spaß gemacht hat.
> 
> Sie hat als Kind einen Deutschkurs an der staatlichen Sprachschule besucht und später am Gymnasium weiter Deutsch gelernt, weil *es ihr* Spaß gemacht hat._​


Vielen Dank für die Erklärung. So actually, the word order isn't fixed. It depends on the different situation and context. The main rule is whether something is mentioned before or not.
I got really confused because my teacher of German said that the word order fixed in the way I mentioned in my first post.


----------



## Wonderingnight

JClaudeK said:


> OK, but there is no rule (as far as I know) which makes this word order compulsory.
> Edit: Crossed with Gernot's last answer.


Well, so you mean this is not the exact rule that everyone follows?


----------



## JClaudeK

Wonderingnight said:


> I got really confused because my teacher of German said that the word order fixed in the way I mentioned in my first post.


In German, the only thing really fixed is the position of the verb.
The other parts can be moved (more ore less).

*Deutsch* macht mir Spaß.
or
*Mir* macht Deutsch Spaß. -  if you want to stress "mir".


----------



## bearded

JClaudeK said:


> ''weil Deutsch ihr Spaß gemacht hat'' *is* possible, and not for the purpose of desambiguation.


Sure, but when you have two word orders or structures at your disposal, one of which may be ambiguous and the other not, it is perhaps advisable to choose the non-ambiguous one. That's what I meant when I wrote 'for the purpose of desambiguation' - OK, not just for that purpose.


----------



## Hutschi

bearded man said:


> Isn't the phrase ''Weil ihr Deutsch Spaß gemacht hat''  somewhat ambiguous? It might be interpreted as ''because her German (the way she speaks German) has been funny'' - in my opinion. Maybe - for the purpose of desambiguation - the word order ''Weil Deutsch ihr Spaß gemacht hat'' would be possible.


This is blocked by context. In the given context it is not ambiguous. (It would not make sense as cause.)
However, it is possible to use the other word sequence in this context.

To open the context that her German was funny, it must be prepared somehow.

Gernot and the others are right.

Not to consider context would make language clumsy and complicate.


----------



## bearded

I'm not fully convinced that my 'odd' interpretation is excluded/blocked  by context.  ''As a child, she had attended a German course...and later...she continued studying the language, since her German (the German she spoke) was still funny..'' : that seems possible to me. If one really wants to interpret ''because she found pleasure/amusement in (learning) German'', then the word order ''Weil Deutsch ihr Spaß gemacht hat'' would be the only really unambiguous one, I think.


----------



## Hutschi

Hi bearded man, your translation is an interpretation that is different from the German meaning in the "funny" sense.

I think, this is blocked:
*weil ihr Deutsch (jemandem/einen) Spaß gemacht hat*.
Because her German was funny/crazy (to somebody).

This does not make sense as cause for "Sie hat als Kind einen Deutschkurs an der staatlichen Sprachschule besucht und später am Gymnasium weiter Deutsch gelernt,"

The difference is

Ihr hat Deutsch Spaß gemacht. (This is the meaning here.) (She liked German.)
Ihr Deutsch hat Spaß gemacht.  (This is your second meaning and may be it has a third meaning: Her German attracted somebody.) Both does not make sense here.
It would be possible with a dative object.
Ihr Deutsch hat dem Direktor Spaß gemacht. Deshalb hat er sie aufgefordert, weiter Deutsch zu lernen.

But in this case "gefallen" is the neutral word. Spaß machen sounds strange here.


----------



## bearded

Hutschi said:


> It would be possible with a dative object.


Thanks, Hutschi, for your explanation - I understand what you mean.
Just a question: would the following sentence (without a dative object)
_Dein Deutsch macht nur Spaß!_
be absolutely not idiomatic? Thank you in advance for your reply.


----------



## Hutschi

To me it seems to be absolutely not idiomatic.
"Nur Spaß machen" is a kind of fixed formula used this way:
"Du machst (doch) nur Spaß?" (You are joking. It is not supposed to believe it.)
"Der macht nur Spaß." (Do not believe him. He jokes.)

Compare:

_Dein Deutsch macht nur dir Spaß!= Es bereitet keine Freude, wegen der vielen Fehler. _

It is the difference between "Spaß machen" and "jemandem Spaß machen."


----------



## bearded

Alles klar. Thanks again.


----------



## bearded

Now, considering the meaning of ''Spaß machen'' according to Hutschi's explanation, I wonder how come that in #9 Gernot confirmed that ''the real meaning could only be deduced from context''.  Apparently he interpreted ''Spaß machen'' (like I erroneously did) as ''to produce fun''. According to Hutchi, such a meaning is only possible if there is a dative object.


----------



## Hutschi

Hi, it must be a misunderstanding. Vice versum.
Wenn etwas jemandem Spaß macht (mit Dativobjekt) gefällt es ihm, bereitet es ihm Freude.
Wenn jemand Spaß macht (ohne Dativobjekt) produziert er Spaß.

See #20.

Did I mismatch it somewhere?


----------



## bearded

Hutschi said:


> Ihr Deutsch hat Spaß gemacht. (This is your second meaning and.... does not make sense here.
> It would be possible with a dative object.
> Ihr Deutsch hat dem Direktor Spaß gemacht


----------



## Hutschi

Ihr Deutsch hat Spaß gemacht. = Her German was funny. (does not work in German this way.)
It would be possible with a dative object.
Ihr Deutsch hat _dem Direktor_ Spaß gemacht. (It works with an dative object, if context allows.) Her German was funny to the director/impressed the Director.


----------



## JClaudeK

Hutschi said:


> Ihr Deutsch hat _dem Direktor_ Spaß gemacht. (It works with an dative object, if context allows.) Her German was funny to the director/impressed the Director.


Ich würde "Ihr Deutsch hat _dem Direktor_ Spaß gemacht." nicht als "Her German was funny to the director." (d.h. "er fand es lustig") interpretieren, sondern "_ "Ihr Deutsch hat dem Direktor gefallen. / Der Direktor hat an ihrem Deutsch Gefallen gefunden."_


----------



## Hutschi

> _ "Ihr Deutsch hat dem Direktor gefallen. / Der Direktor hat an ihrem Deutsch Gefallen gefunden."_




That is why I added "impressed". I did not find a rally good translation. And it depends on context.


----------

