# Norwegian: hvis/så



## mezzoforte

If we want to use the "_*if/then*_" construction, do we need to use "*hvis*" and "*så*", or can we just use "*hvis*".  Can it ever be "*hvis*" and "*da*"?  How do these differ?
(I have been reading on *da/så,* and also *da/når*.... a bit confusing.)


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## Cerb

Colloquially "da" and "så" are interchangeable in this construction, but I'm guessing "så" is considered to be more correct or the only correct way. "Da" is used as "then" in these types of sentences. As in:

"If [something], then ('da') you should..". 
"Hvis [something], da burde du.."

It's not very elegant, but it works. There might be better examples and in this example da/så could be dropped altogether. It feels like there is a tiny difference between "da" and "så" in this example, but the closest I can think of would be "then" for both. At least in this example. I'd probably skip "then" if the sentence had "så" and I was translating it from Norwegian to English, but It's really trivial. 

Da/når is something native speakers very often mix up. If you're talking about something that has happened you're supposed to use "da", when talking about present/future you use "når". It's in the "My friend and I"/"My friend and me" category. The type of thing people love to point out when somebody gets it wrong  You can't use "når" in the if/then construction however. 

Hopefully somebody can do a better job at clarifying the difference between these two uses of "da". Giving some examples might make it easier as well


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## mezzoforte

Cerb said:


> I'd probably skip "then" if the sentence had "så" and I was translating it from Norwegian to English, but It's really trivial.


I think I know what you mean here.



Cerb said:


> Da/når is something native speakers very often mix up. If you're talking about something that has happened you're supposed to use "da", when talking about present/future you use "når". It's in the "My friend and I"/"My friend and me" category.



(_Between you and me, "*Me and my friend*" is often (wrongly) said instead of "*My friend and I*"... "*I and my friend* is rarely said, and it sounds funny to me._)


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## mezzoforte

Is there any more to say about this?  I'm still wondering how it could be different to exchange *så *and *da*, as in "*Hvis..., så/da burde du...*" or with *så/da* omitted.  I know these words have a (mysteriously) different grammatical function of _*then*_.

_P.S. Can someone explain the idiom "*å så da*" and it's literal meaning?_


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## cevita

When I was in school my teacher taught us to say:
 "Da" for what once was, and "så" for each time is ("dengang da, hver gang når").

When I was a child = da jeg var liten (this is in the past)
When I go to school - når jeg går til skolen (this is in the present)

But most Norwegians just use "når", even if it isn't gramatically correct. You can't say "når jeg var liten" because "når" is to be used for actions that happens several times, and you are only  a child once.



> Can someone explain the idiom "å så da" and it's literal meaning?


The correct writing is "og så da". It means something like "so what". To me it is considered like a rude and childish reply to something someone has said.

example:
-Jeg fikk en sekser på prøven! (I got an A+ on my test)
-og så da (so what! / so? / who cares?!)

The literal meaning..? You mean a word by word into English? It would be something like:
and so then


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## mezzoforte

Okay, I think I get *da *and *når* now.  Can you say something more about *da* and *så*?

_P.S. In what contexts do we pronounce or not pronounce the *g* in *og*?_


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## kirsitn

mezzoforte said:


> _P.S. In what contexts do we pronounce or not pronounce the *g* in *og*?_



I never pronounce the *g* in *og*. 

As for *da* and *så*, I would use never use *da* along with *hvis*, but I'm not sure if it's actually wrong to say *hvis*... *da*, or if it just sounds a bit akward to me.


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## mezzoforte

Okay.  And about *og*, I sometimes hear the *g* in songs, e.g. the national anthem.


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## Cerb

mezzoforte said:


> (_Between you and me, "*Me and my friend*" is often (wrongly) said instead of "*My friend and I*"... _)


That's the one I meant  Was trying to come up with an example of something people love to pick on 

Confusing "å" (infinitive marker) and "og" ("and") is a very common mistake as they're pronounced the same way when the "g" is skipped. Pronouncing the "g" sound a bit posh (or even archaic) to me. The lyrics of the national anthem are quite old of course and as it's fairly slow and used for formal occasions I guess some people might pronounce the "g" for added effect. 

"Og" is also used for "også ("also"/"too"). It's often spelled with an optional grave accent, "òg", to separate it from "og" in the meaning of "and". They're pronounced differently as suggested by the accent. Using "òg" exclusively sounds a bit old fashioned to me, but it's common for expressions such as "me too" ("jeg òg"). There are some comments to be made about the use of too/as well/also vs òg/også, but it's not really a big deal. "Jeg også" literally means "me also", but it's just as common as "jeg òg". It's more of a problem when translating from Norwegian to English. I'm not sure if using "også" for "òg" is considered to be incorrect, but there's really no difference in practice apart from preference and style. 

It's very rare to hear "og"/"òg" pronounced with the "g" these days and I personally don't do it in the national anthem. Apart from the national anthem I'm not even sure I can think of any examples where it wouldn't sound outright silly and wrong to me. That's with a huge disclaimer for dialects however..


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## mezzoforte

Cerb said:


> That's the one I meant  Was trying to come up with an example of something people love to pick on
> 
> "Og" is also used for "også ("also"/"too"). It's often spelled with an optional grave accent, "òg", to separate it from "og" in the meaning of "and". They're pronounced differently as suggested by the accent. Using "òg" exclusively sounds a bit old fashioned to me, but it's common for expressions such as "me too" ("jeg òg").



How do you pronounce _ò_ v.s. _o_.

I think I've heard the *g* in other songs, so maybe it was a dialect thing.

In English,  we sometimes say *an* instead of *and*; the latter is more correct.  I suppose we are less accepting of removing the *d* than Norwegians are of removing the *g* in *og*.


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## missTK

Pronouncing the g is not considered more correct as far as I know. It's more of a hypercorrection based on the written language - the royal family doesn't pronounce the g, but people trying really hard to be formal sometimes do.


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## Cerb

Forget what I said about òg vs også. It's exactly the same word apparently.  Using "òg" where I'd normally use "også" does sound very dated to me however. 

"Òg" has a long vowel and "og" has a short one. It's always stressed and there might be something to be said about pitch as well, but I can't think of any good way to explain it. The accent is optional, but should be used if there is a chance it might be confused with "and", but few bother with it. I'm guessing a lot of people even write "også" to avoid the hassle with what accent it's supposed to have even if they'd normally say "òg"


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## mezzoforte

Are *en,én* pronounced differently?


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## kirsitn

Not really, but én is usually a bit more stressed since it's usually a slightly more significant word than en. It might also have a different toneme, but I'm not sure about that.

Example where both en and én could be used, with different meanings:

Det var bare en hund som gikk forbi. (It was just a dog that walked by.)
Det var bare én hund som gikk forbi. (Only a single dog walked by.)


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## mezzoforte

Cerb said:


> Forget what I said about òg vs også. It's exactly the same word apparently.  Using "òg" where I'd normally use "også" does sound very dated to me however.
> 
> "Òg" has a long vowel and "og" has a short one. It's always stressed and there might be something to be said about pitch as well, but I can't think of any good way to explain it. The accent is optional, but should be used if there is a chance it might be confused with "and", but few bother with it. I'm guessing a lot of people even write "også" to avoid the hassle with what accent it's supposed to have even if they'd normally say "òg"



Seriously?  I didn't realize that *og* has a short vowel.  So whenever someone starts a sentence with a long and stressed "*og*", they are really saying *òg/også*?  Okay.

I guess _*and/also*_ are basically the same word in English, and starting a sentence with a stressed "_*And,*_" really means "_*Also,*_" (we're technically not supposed to start a sentence with "_*and*_").


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## Cerb

Maybe I didn't think of enough examples or maybe I'm just plain wrong here. I do believe "og" has a short vowel. "Òg" is longer at least  I'll get back to it tonight unless somebody clears it up by then.


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## Cerb

Rereading your post helped me figure it out. Long or short vowel has to do with if it's stressed or not. Both "òg" and "og" can be stressed, but "òg" is always stressed. The "og" in your example is long.  "Òg" can never be used to start a sentence, but there are some, mostly fixed, expressions that start with "og" and "også".


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## mezzoforte

Cerb said:


> Rereading your post helped me figure it out. Long or short vowel has to do with if it's stressed or not. Both "òg" and "og" can be stressed, but "òg" is always stressed. The "og" in your example is long.  "Òg" can never be used to start a sentence, but there are some, mostly fixed, expressions that start with "og" and "også".



Does anyone ever say *og* or *òg* with the true *o* vowel, or is it always with *å*?
Is a short  *o* always said like *å*?


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## kirsitn

mezzoforte said:


> Does anyone ever say *og* or *òg* with the true *o* vowel, or is it always with *å*?
> Is a short  *o* always said like *å*?



Og always has the o pronounced as å, and I can't think of any words that have a short o prononced as o, so it might be a general rule.


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## mezzoforte

What about *for*?


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## basslop

mezzoforte said:


> What about *for*?



This is an irregular case. It is pronounced with short *å*. According to the pronounciation it should have been written *forr*. 

The word *fór* (fed) is pronounced with a long *o*.  Normally it should have been written *for* but the ´-accent is added to distinguish them - insted of writing forr and for.


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## missTK

For is pronounced with a short å sound.

I think it works like this most of the time, but there are exceptions.
For example "opp", which some (most?) people pronounce with a short o, and past tense of some verbs (rodd, grodd, skodd...).


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## kirsitn

When used as a conjunction/preposition/adverb, for is pronounced as "fårr". Fôr (which means fodder) and the past tense of the verb "å fare" (which means to go/leave) are pronounced as "fooor" (long o-sound).


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## mezzoforte

missTK said:


> For is pronounced with a short å sound.
> 
> I think it works like this most of the time, but there are exceptions.
> For example "opp", which some (most?) people pronounce with a short o, and past tense of some verbs (rodd, grodd, skodd...).



By "short o" do you mean the true "o" sound, but short?  Like in *gamlemor*?
I would have pronounced *opp* as *åpp*.


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## kirsitn

Opp can be pronounced either "opp" or "åpp". In the north and west it's usually pronounced "opp", but in the east I've heard both varieties.


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