# sich vs sich selbst



## screamerer

Hallo, Guten Abend.. .


Ich verstehe nicht das Wort *selbst*: im Worterbuch gibt es eine gleiche Bedeutung als _*sich*_. (I know this is probably awkward, but I'm just trying my German!)

*Er kann sich selbst waschen.
Erst muss man sich selbst lieben. Dann kann man Deutsch lieben.

*I have no problem understanding such examples without _*selbst*_, but with it in place, I can't help but find it redundant.. .


Vielen Dank.


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## Schimmelreiter

screamerer said:


> I can't help but find it redundant.


Well, reinforcing the notion that the object is identical with the subject isn't really redundant (cf. _He can wash himself._)

In English, you can't easily do that with _to love. _Whereas _to wash _is inherently reflexive and, hence, only takes _oneself _as a reinforcer, _oneself _doesn't function as a reinforcer in _First one's got to love oneself/Erst muss man sich lieben. _The reinforcing _selbst_, in _Erst muss man sich selbst lieben_, will generally be rendered prosodically in English by emphasising _oneself. _If you wish to render it lexically, you might say something like _​First one's got to love one's own self._


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## Hausmeister

That's new. Kann man auch so sagen :_ Ich spreche zu mir selbst.

_


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## Tonerl

> That's new. Kann man auch so sagen :_ Ich spreche zu mir selbst._



Ich spreche mit mir selbst, das ist gebräuchlicher/herkömmlicher (more common) !


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## Hausmeister

Moin! Wahrscheinlich wird es in einem anderen Bundesstaate verwendet, ja?


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## perny

There's one overlap with sich and selbst (without being a reflexive verb), right? *vor sich hin*.

_Sie weint still vor sich hin._


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## Tonerl

Es gibt da noch einen sehr umgangssprachlichen Ausdruck:
Er murmelt was vor sich hin 
Leise und undeutlich vor sich hin brummeln 
(Er spricht mit sich selbst, zu sich selbst)


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## Schimmelreiter

perny said:


> There's one overlap with sich and selbst (without being a reflexive verb), right? *vor sich hin*.
> 
> _Sie weint still vor sich hin._


_vor sich hin _is an adverbial meaning _self-absorbedly/continuously. _So I'm not exactly getting your point.


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## perny

Schimmelreiter said:


> _vor sich hin _is an adverbial meaning _self-absorbedly/continuously. _So I'm not exactly getting your point.



Well, one translation into English would be "She cries quietly *to* *herself*."

Would something similiar be possible with selbst, e.g.

_Sie weint still ihr selbst.

?_


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## Schimmelreiter

The adverbial is a set phrase (apart from _sich _taking on the respective grammatical person of course):

_Er schimpfte/redete/schwamm vor sich hin.
Ich lief/ging/arbeitete vor mich hin.
Das Bächlein plätschert vor sich hin.

_As you can't *_vor jemand anderen hin schimpfen_, it's usually unidiomatic to include a reinforcing _selbst_: 
_*__Er schimpfte vor sich selbst hin.
_I wouldn't wish to claim, though, that nobody has ever said, 
_Du schimpfst ja nur vor dich__ selbst hin.





_


perny said:


> _Sie weint still ihr selbst._


obviously doesn't include the set phrase _vor sich hin _and must be analysed separately. The sentence is ungrammatical. The genitive will have been possible in former times: 
_Sie weint still ihrer selbst.
_Modern: _Sie weint still über sich selbst/über ihren schweren Fehler._






PS
I'm aware of what you did. 
Applying the rule of thumb that _to + noun _translates into the German dative, you rendered  _She cries quiety to herself _as _*Sie weint still ihr selbst. _As it's reflexive, it "should" have been the - still perfectly ungrammatical - _*Sie weint still sich selbst. _As _to oneself_, in _to cry to oneself_, is as set a phrase as _vor sich hin_ is, neither one is directly translatable, though.


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## perny

Toll, danke sehr! Das ist eine völlstandige Antwort.


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## screamerer

Hallo..,

Thank you all. However, I don't understand what all this has got to do with my question..?!!

How is *selbst* used? how does it differ from a reflexive pronoun, e.g. *sich*?


Danke.


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## Schimmelreiter

screamerer said:


> I have no problem understanding such examples without _*selbst*_, but with it in place, I can't help but find it redundant.





Schimmelreiter said:


> Well, reinforcing the notion that the object is identical with the subject isn't really redundant (cf. _He can wash himself._)


_selbst _may be used to reinforce the notion of reflexivity. Read my whole #2? 


_Ich sehe mich. - I see myself.
Ich sehe mich selbst. - I indeed/only see myself.


_I tried to point out in #2 that translation is easier with inherently reflexive English verbs:
_Ich wasche mich. - I wash.
Ich wasche mich selbst. - I wash myself._


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## screamerer

Schimmelreiter said:


> _selbst _may be used to reinforce the notion of reflexivity. Read my whole #2?



Danke schön. Of course I did, but I understood nothing: why would I want to reinforce reflexivity? _*sich *_in *Er kann sich selbst waschen* already indicates the object is the subject himself, "*Er*",
that is, he washes himself.. .

I've just thought: this reflexivity phenomenon has two elements to it: *the object* that receives the action, which is the subject itself, and which is indicated by the usage of a reflexive pronoun, e.g. _sich.
_And the subject that carries out the action: now with that I believe we may have some room for further assertion, as actions one do to oneself might be actually carried-out by another agent, such as how
one may have others help them wash or so.., in that regard, we might want to point out an action is carried out by the very subject themself - not by some other agent on their behalf:


*Er kann sich waschen*: He can wash himself - whether he does it himself directly or get someone else to do it.. .
*Er kann sich selbst waschen*: He can wash himself (indicated by _sich_) by himself (indicated by _selbst_).. .



Not sure though, just analyzing.. .


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## Schimmelreiter

screamerer said:


> *Er kann sich waschen*: He can wash himself


As _to wash _is inherently reflexive, _Er kann sich waschen_ translates into _He can wash.
__Er kann sich selbst waschen _translates into _He can wash himself.


_Please note that _waschen_, unlike _to wash_, is not inherently reflexive, so the reflexive pronoun _sich_, unlike _himself _in _He can wash himself_, doesn't emphasise the person's ability to wash himself, say, following surgery, so what it takes to render _himself _is the reinforcing _​selbst._


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## perny

Maybe there is another scenario that can help understand the use of selbst:

_Sie widersprechen sich._ - perhaps ambigious.
_Sie widersprechen sich selbst._ - "They contradict themselves."
_Sie widersprechen sich einander._ - "They contradict each other."


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## screamerer

Schimmelreiter said:


> As _to wash _is inherently reflexive, _Er kann sich waschen_ translates into _He can wash.
> __Er kann sich selbst waschen _translates into _He can wash himself._



Danke schön.


I'm not trying to be stubborn   or something, but I have just consulted an online dictionary, and there is a "_*Er wäscht sich*_" and it means *He washes himself*.
Source: http://www.dict.cc/?s=Er+wäscht+sich


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## perny

screamerer said:


> Danke schön.
> I'm not trying to be stubborn   or something, but I have just consulted an online dictionary, and there is a "_*Er wäscht sich*_" and it means *He washes himself*.
> Source: http://www.dict.cc/?s=Er+wäscht+sich



Dict.cc like many others is a user-contributed dictionary. This can create many artefacts and issues. In some cases, it can be entirely wrong.

I recommend professional (bilingual or monolingual) dictionaries only for primary definitions, i.e. when you do not know the meaning of words at all or are making certain of something. The likelihood of finding anything completely wrong in those is next to negligible, and they tend to have far fewer other issues. PONS and Duden are probably the best online.

PONS, for example, would have quoted that translation as "He washes [himself]."

This forum's own dictionary also is quite good: http://www.wordreference.com/deen/waschen


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## Schimmelreiter

perny said:


> Maybe there is another scenario that can help understand the use of selbst:
> 
> _Sie widersprechen sich._ - perhaps ambigious.
> _Sie widersprechen sich selbst._ - "They contradict themselves."
> _Sie widersprechen sich einander._ - "They contradict each other."


_sich_, in _Sie widersprechen sich_​, is ambiguous as some use _sich _reciprocally. This seems to be accepted by everybody, myself excluded. 

If it's reciprocal, why not use the reciprocal _einander_?
_Sie widersprechen einander.

_There's one pronoun too many in _*Sie widersprechen sich einander. _By taking out one of the two you get the sentences already discussed.

_einander _doesn't lend itself to reinforcement by _selbst. _(And _Selbst sie widersprechen einander_, _Sie selbst widersprechen einander _and _Sie widersprechen einander selbst _are different kettles of fish.)

Others might view it differently but I don't think _selbst_, in _Sie widersprechen sich selbst_, takes all of the ambiguity out. In singular _Er widerspricht sich selbst_, _selbst _​reinforces reflexivity. (This also goes for _Sie widersprechen sich selbst _if it's second person singular, of course.)


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## Perseas

screamerer said:


> Ich verstehe nicht das Wort *selbst*: im Worterbuch gibt es eine gleiche Bedeutung als _*sich*_. (I know this is probably awkward, but I'm just trying my German!)
> 
> *Er kann sich selbst waschen.
> Erst muss man sich selbst lieben. Dann kann man Deutsch lieben.
> 
> *I have no problem understanding such examples without _*selbst*_, but with it in place, I can't help but find it redundant.. .


Hello,
I' m a bit late here but I 'd like to add -- in case it is not clear yet -- that "selbst" is not only used when there is reflexivity. You can use it e.g. in this sentence: _er will immer alles selbst machen_. In both cases it is used for emphasis or often to express surprise, and I don't think it is redundant. 

In Duden there are synonyms for "selbst". Some of them: _in [eigener] Person, persönlich; (umgangssprachlich) selber;  aus eigener Kraft,  ohne fremde Hilfe, ohne Unterstützung, selbstständig._


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## Schimmelreiter

Perseas said:


> Hello,
> I' m a bit late here but I 'd like to add -- in case it is not clear yet -- that "selbst" is not only used when there is reflexivity. You can use it e.g. in this sentence: _er will immer alles selbst machen_. In both cases it is used for emphasis or often to express surprise, and I don't think it is redundant.
> 
> In Duden there are synonyms for "selbst". Some of them: _in [eigener] Person, persönlich; (umgangssprachlich) selber;  aus eigener Kraft,  ohne fremde Hilfe, ohne Unterstützung, selbstständig._


Very true. And even in 





screamerer said:


> *Er kann sich selbst waschen.*


depending on prosody, _selbst _need not necessarily modify _sich. _​It's just that screamerer tied the two together by underlining them.



By contrast,





screamerer said:


> *Erst muss man sich selbst lieben.*


is a clear case of _sich _being modified/reinforced by _​selbst _unless you rearrange it:

_Erst muss man *selbst* sich lieben.

_Or, somewhat ironically:
_Erst muss man selbst *sich* lieben. _(sogar sich )


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## screamerer

Hallo.


Thank you all for your contributions.

Just one last thing: is my German at the very beginning of this thread correct? I said:

"Ich verstehe nicht das Wort *selbst*: im Worterbuch gibt es eine gleiche Bedeutung als _*sich*_"


Danke schön.


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## Ali Smith

„Wir Sachsen sind helle”, sagen sie von sich selbst, und niemand bestreitet ihnen Erfindungsgabe, Wissensdurst, Fleiß und Weltoffenheit.

What was the point of adding "selbst" here? I think it would have meant the same thing without it:

"We Saxons are clever" they say about themselves, and no one challenges their intentiveness, thirst for knowledge, diligence, and open-mindedness.


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## Hutschi

screamerer said:


> Er kann sich selbst waschen.


Hi, in this special case it has the connotation: He does not need help.

This is not so much in "Er kann sich waschen."

---
Context small child:
"Sie kann sich schon waschen." = "Sie kann sich schon selbst waschen." This is (almost) equal. 

---
Sie kann sich waschen. This can also mean: She should wash herself now. This is not the case with "selbst".


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## Hutschi

Ali Smith said:


> „Wir Sachsen sind helle”, sagen sie von sich selbst, und niemand bestreitet ihnen Erfindungsgabe, Wissensdurst, Fleiß und Weltoffenheit.
> 
> What was the point of adding "selbst" here? I think it would have meant the same thing without it:
> 
> "We Saxons are clever" they say about themselves, and no one challenges their intentiveness, thirst for knowledge, diligence, and open-mindedness.


This is a fixed phrase. There is no idiomatic place for "selbst".


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## Hutschi

screamerer said:


> Hallo.
> 
> 
> Thank you all for your contributions.
> 
> Just one last thing: is my German at the very beginning of this thread correct? I said:
> 
> "Ich verstehe nicht das Wort *selbst*: im Worterbuch gibt es eine gleiche Bedeutung als _*sich*_"
> 
> 
> Danke schön.



It is tricky - but it is correct. (Except small spelling errors)
Usually we use quotation marks to indicate the words as Metatext. But in the internet (and in very old books) also bold or italic is used.

Ich verstehe nicht das Wort *selbst*: I do not understand the word "selbst"
Ich verstehe nicht das Wort selbst: I do not understand the word itself/the word as such.

 Im Wörterbuch gibt es eine gleiche Bedeutung als _*sich = *_There exists a word with the same meaning, it is "sich"
It is correct, but not very idiomatic, it is not unidiomatic however.


More easy to understand:
Im Wörterbuch kann man das Wort "sich" finden, das die gleiche Bedeutung hat.


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## διαφορετικός

Ali Smith said:


> „Wir Sachsen sind helle”, sagen sie von sich selbst, und niemand bestreitet ihnen Erfindungsgabe, Wissensdurst, Fleiß und Weltoffenheit.
> 
> What was the point of adding "selbst" here? I think it would have meant the same thing without it:


After a preposition with a reflexive pronoun, it is usual to add "selbst". Another example: "Ihr denkt nur an euch selbst." The reflexive meaning is more easily recognized with the addition of "selbst".


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## berndf

Ali Smith said:


> „Wir Sachsen sind helle”, sagen sie von sich selbst, und niemand bestreitet ihnen Erfindungsgabe, Wissensdurst, Fleiß und Weltoffenheit.
> 
> What was the point of adding "selbst" here? I think it would have meant the same thing without it:
> 
> "We Saxons are clever" they say about themselves, and no one challenges their intentiveness, thirst for knowledge, diligence, and open-mindedness.


There is a difference between a genuine reflexive verb and a transitive verb that is used reflexively. In the first case, agent and patient are identical by the semantic nature of the verb and in the second case agent and patient can be different but but just happen to be identical in a certain case, you can tell "Wir Sachsen sind helle" to different people but here you happen to tell it to yourself. This is what the added _selbst _emphasises.

For genuine reflexive verbs, adding _selbst _is not possible. For example you cannot say *_Ich wundere mich selbst_ because _wundern_ is is by its nature reflexive and cannot be used as a transitive verb and you cannot say, e.g., *_Ich wundere dich_.

In English, the concept of a reflexive verb does not exist. English only has reflexively used transitive verbs.


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## Hutschi

I know such things like "Ich wundere mich selbst".

"Warum hast du das gemacht?"
"Ich wundere mich selbst." - This is a fixed expression. Is it regional?
 It emphasizes that it is strange. Not that it was me.

See also sources like: Else Lasker-Schüler: "Gedichtbuch für Hugo May" - "Ich wundere mich selbst, daß ich noch lebe"
"Ich wundere mich selbst, dass ich noch lebe."


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## berndf

This is a different use of _selbst_. If refers to the subject and not to the object pronoun. _Ich wundere mich selbst_ contrasts with _Du wunderst dich_ and not with *_Ich wundere dich_. It gets clearer if you change the word order: _Ich selbst wundere mich, dass ich noch lebe_.


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## Hutschi

I wrote this because it is a common phrase.
Also "Du wunderst dich selbst." is possible.
wundern

Also: "mich wundert ..."


*"Ich wundere Dich" is indeed not possible in German.
Only with "ver". "Ich verwundere dich wohl?" - but this is constructed without context here and seldom.

More idiomatic: @buchs | Forum Fläschchennahrung (Example)
"Du verwunderst mich doch immer wieder".

Duden verwundern
Meaning a: bewirken, dass jemand über etwas erstaunt ist, weil er etwas nicht erwartet hat


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## διαφορετικός

διαφορετικός said:


> After a preposition with a reflexive pronoun, it is usual to add "selbst". Another example: "Ihr denkt nur an euch selbst." The reflexive meaning is more easily recognized with the addition of "selbst".


Clarification: "Selbst" can be used to confirm the reflexive meaning of a pronoun when a different object is usually expected in a narrow context. In these contexts, I would recommend adding "selbst" in order to make the sentence more easily understandable, even if you don't want to emphasize the (identity of the) object represented by the pronoun (beyond the reflexivity) - the usual meaning of "selbst" vanishes in these contexts.

Basically this applies also to cases without preposition, e.g. "Ich betrüge mich selbst", but I think that it occurs less frequently - maybe because the reference of "selbst" is often more ambiguous in theses cases.


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