# South Asian Diaspora



## panjabigator

What countries have a large South Asian population?  I know England has a large South Asian community, and Canada and the US has a big one too.  What about in other countries (spanish speaking ones for example)?


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## vince

The UK and Canada (esp. the western Toronto suburbs of Mississauga and Brampton) have large South Asian populations. I think some areas of the Middle East like Bahrain and UAE have many South Asian workers.


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## Yuribear

Not in Mexico.

Actually Mexico has very tough immigration laws (influenced by the US) they make it very hard for Africans, Asians and people from the Middle East to even get a visa. With the exception of Japanese (them having a strong economy). Unless you already have a US visa in your passport.

When I invited 3 friends from India to Mexico a few years ago, the case had to go all the way up to the President's office (rest assured I know my rights), because people at the Mexican Embassy in Delhi despite my letter of invitation refused a visa and treated them like dirt. Eventually they got an apology and a visa and stayed in Mexico for 3 months. 

But getting back to your question you will very seldom see people from the aboved metioned countries in Mexico. Literally they have to fight their way in!!!


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## vince

Wow, that is pretty crazy! So I guess it is very hard for people outside North America, Western Europe, and Japan to visit Mexico?


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## Yuribear

Yes it is... unless they can prove in one way or another the reason for their visit and their economic welfare. However, if people from these countries ask for a visa at Mexican Embassy/Consulate in the US, will get one very easily.


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## tvdxer

South Africa has a large indian diaspora.  So does (believe it or not) Fiji.  Many of the wealthy Middle Eastern / Persian Gulf countries have tons of South Asian folk taken in as guest workers.  I believe Kenya also has many of Indian descent, but I'm not quite sure.


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## panjabigator

East Africa is full of them!  Fiji is an interesting story...there are plenty of Indians living there, and the language actually survives with them too!  Fijian Hindi is a mixture of Hindi, Bhojpuri (a Hindi "dialect") and the native tongue.  

USA
Canada
Britain
Persian Gulf
Malaysia/Singapore
Fiji
Carribean (Trinidad and Tobago)

where else?


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## vince

Hmm with regards to Caribbean "Indians", I think most of them are Caribbean, not Indian, anymore than a "white  American might be British. Many of these "Indians" have never been to the Subcontinent. These countries have unique cultures that have a blend of South Asian and African influences as well as their own contributions.

Guyana is another country like this.


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## panjabigator

I understand.  But I wasnt born in India, and although Im American (and damn proud of it ) Im still in the diaspora community.  I guess the Carribean is different.


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## vince

I think "diaspora" means people away from their real home, people from a common place who are in a foreign land with a foreign culture. Americans living in India would be called "the American diaspora". But if they assimilate into Indian society and become Indian, then they are no longer part of the diaspora because India is their homeland now, they are no longer foreigners originating from America.

When you say that you are part of the Indian diaspora it gives the impression (to me at least) that you are saying India is your true home, and you are a foreigner in America.

Unless you are implying an ethnic-racial definition of diaspora, in which case America is composed only of various diasporas: the British diaspora, the Mexican diaspora, the German diaspora, etc., and that no one can say America is their true home.


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## panjabigator

There is a Panjabi saying which expresses perfectly how I feel:

dhhobi da kutta na ghar da na ghaat da
The washerman's dog doesnt belong to the house or riverbank.  
Essentially, it saying the a second generation like myself can belong to neither community....I'll never be Indian enough for some or American enough for others.  I consider myself a member of the Indian Diaspora because of my cultural and ethnic connections.


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## vince

You are neither?

So if you decided to move permanently to India, would you then be considered part of the American Diaspora?

How about your children, if they are born in America they would be 3rd generation Americans, would they be part of Indian diaspora?

I am just wondering this, because if membership in diaspora is determined by "ethnicity", then no one is American except the Native Americans.


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## maxiogee

vince said:
			
		

> I think "diaspora" means people away from their real home,



Yes, it originally meant the Jews living outside Israel.
We in Ireland talk of the Irish diaspora - those Irish who have emigrated. It was a concept originally raised by a previous President - Mary Robinson.
A noted Irish custom is to leave a candle buring in one of the windows of one's house over the night Christmas Eve and into the morning of Christmas Day. This was to signify that there was a welcome there for a traveller, in a reflection of the "no room at the inn" incident in Bethlehem.

President Robinson left a lit candle shining our from a window of the President's official residence during her term of office as a symbolic welcome home to our widespread emigrant population. I'm not sure if she coined the expression "Irish Diaspora" but it arose in connection with this.


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## panjabigator

vince said:
			
		

> You are neither?
> 
> So if you decided to move permanently to India, would you then be considered part of the American Diaspora?
> 
> How about your children, if they are born in America they would be 3rd generation Americans, would they be part of Indian diaspora?
> 
> I am just wondering this, because if membership in diaspora is determined by "ethnicity", then no one is American except the Native Americans.



Yikes...I meant to say 1st generation.
I dont really know how to answer the question of what I am.  I feel that I am not so far removed from India (my parents were born there) that I can count as...both.


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## panjabigator

If my children are born in America, do another 1st generation American like myself, then I'd say they'd be the same as me....part of the Indian diaspora and American.


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## tvdxer

Try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_diaspora .  That might be of help to you.


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## cirrus

Interesting point - how long can you call yourself x when you live in y?  East Africa is a particular case.  Elsewhere we have seen any amount of discussion about hyphenated Americans but turning to Eastern Africa I think Asians there called themselves Asians partly because of a colonial inheritance but also the post imperial regimes there didn't make it easy for them to consider themselves African.  In Uganda whole communities were forced to leave in the seventies and many also left Kenya and Tanzania because their life there became so difficult.  

In the UK this leaves people with the ridiculous label of East African Asians - how this works when on the one hand your parents came from Uganda, speak Gujerati, English and Swahili and may have never set foot in India whilst you consider yourself British is mind-bogglingly complex.


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## maxiogee

cirrus said:
			
		

> Interesting point - how long can you call yourself x when you live in y?



The first generation born in Y to parents of X origin, even if they are both of X origin, is a Y-ishperson as far as I'm concerned — even though the Irish government affords Irish nationality to those born abroad to Irish persons, and the Irish electorate recently voted to disallow Irish nationality to those born here to non-longterm residents. It was fallaciously alleged in the course of the debate leading to the referendum that there were numerous cases of people coming here specifically ot have babies so that these would thus be Irish citizens. This was a scare tactic put out on behalf of the anti-immigrant factions of the EU. Sadly, it worked.


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## cirrus

You say that and for the most part I agree.  I wonder how much the label people choose for themselves or have foisted on them depends on the receptiveness of the host country.  

Do you think now Ireland has changed from being a country with high levels of emigration to high levels of immigration  will your liberal definition prosper or wain - with the change in  nationality  law being  just the start of a xenophobic backlash?


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## maxiogee

cirrus said:
			
		

> You say that and for the most part I agree.  I wonder how much the label people choose for themselves or have foisted on them depends on the receptiveness of the host country.
> 
> Do you think now Ireland has changed from being a country with high levels of emigration to high levels of immigration will your liberal definition prosper or *wane* - with the change in nationality law being just the start of a xenophobic backlash?



Excellent questions and quite off topic.  _Maybe if we jump up and down waving our arms a passing mod might split us off into a topic of our own._

"I hope not" to all your questions.
I hope that people's choice of label is a purely personal one, and not forced.

I hope that the illiberal, conservative-voting many don't realise how many they actually are. The majority of our public representatives are elected from three parties which are largely conservative with little liberal wings attached - a bit like a chicken, these wings would never make the beast fly!

I don't see a backlash. That may well be down to the economic prosperity of the country and one could arise quite quickly were there to be a recession. Our prosperity is, to a large extent, dependent on non-national companies which could relocate quite quickly.

Our experience with emigration means that most families have at least one  close relative who emigrated, whether by choice or necessity, and that tends to colour most people's receptiveness to our immigrants.


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## MarcB

*OED: diaspora*

• *noun* *1* (*the diaspora*) the dispersion of the Jews beyond Israel, chiefly in the 8th to 6th centuries bc. *2* the dispersion of any people from their traditional homeland.
Let us see how many generations from the 8th century BCE?
The term can be applied to any generation that still identifies with an ancestral homeland.
They make up more than half the population in Guyana, Fiji and the Trinidad part of T&T. It is said "There is a Singaman (Sikh) in every major city in Asia."
The following countries have significant S. Asian populations some are immigrants and some are descendants. This is a geographic listing.
Saudi Arabia,United Arab Emirates,Kuwait,Oman, Bahrain, Yemen, Jordan, Malaysia, Singapore, Guyana, Suriname, Trinidad and Tobago, South Africa, Mauritius, Reunion, Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania, Madagascar, Mozambique, Zambia,Zimbabwwe, United Kingdom, Netherlands, France, United States, Canada, Fiji, Australia, New Zealand.
Countries with small but noticeable populations.
Barbados,Belize, Jamaica, Grenada,ST Lucia,ST Vincent, Martinique and Guadeloupe, Venezuela, Andorra, Spain(Barcelona), New Caledonia.


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## Pivra

South Asians have been coming into Thailand long before Alexander the Great, (as traders, conquerors, priests, and etc. etc.) In Bangkok, there are lots of Panjabis, I have a friend, very close, his name is in Thai (as in, Sanskrit, but spelt our way) but his last name is still Sriguruwal, his family has been in Thailand for more than 7 generations. If I'm not mistaken, one branch of Sikhism is also centered in BKK. Most Panjabis I know only speak Thai and other Indians are coming in as businessmen but they are more like a back and forth people. Lots of Panjabis, mainly Sikhs came in during the government of Indhira. The most expensive domestic brand (clothes, shoes, perfumes) is called "Jaspal". lol

 btw. My paternal grandmother is partly south asian. Probably from India.


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## Yuribear

Moving back to the topic, do not forget the BIG community of Indians in South Africa. There are other african countries that have several. I have many indian friends that have moved now to Nigeria, although I do not know how many are there, but it seems it has a reasonable number for they even have Indian markets and movies.

You know what happens to you is exactly what happens to the Chicanos here in the US. Their parents are mexican (or from somewhere in latinamerica), but they (the chicanos) were born here,so they do not feel truly americans nor mexicans (or whatever) and basically they are both.


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## maxiogee

MarcB said:
			
		

> OED: diaspora
> • noun 1 (the diaspora the dispersion of the Jews beyond Israel, chiefly in the 8th to 6th centuries bc. 2 the dispersion of any people from their traditional homeland.
> 
> Let us see how many generations from the 8th century BCE?
> 
> The term can be applied to any generation that still identifies with an ancestral homeland.



In the definitions 1 and 2 it refers to the act of dispersion, not the generations since then.

It is normally now applied, when used in ways not assopciated with the Jewish people, to those who have left their homeland, and not the generations since.


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## MarcB

maxiogee said:
			
		

> In the definitions 1 and 2 it refers to the act of dispersion, not the generations since then.
> 
> It is normally now applied, when used in ways not assopciated with the Jewish people, to those who have left their homeland, and not the generations since.


Perhaps this is a Hiberno-English vs other category.
In AE it can be used by any ethnic group including modern Jews of any generation away from the "ancestral homeland" Many S. Asians in the world and their descendants claim they are part of that diaspora, even if their only connection is physical or cultural and sometimes this includes language but not always. In many of the countries I mentioned curry has become the national dish even for other ethnic groups. In Guyana and Trinidad the " East Indians" are an integral part of society yet remain some how apart. They even have a word for people who are a mixture of "African(also several generations away) and East Indians" that is "Dougla". It is like other discussions of what some people think vs what the people involved think, say or do. Do you suggest another term? Or do you think that susequent generations are wrong dispite what they think?


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## Dean122

The term Diaspora orginated with the Jews so by looking at their experience you get an idea what it means.

The Jews were forced out of their land. They moved to other lands but they still kept the traditions that bonded them as a people. Also, they still held their primary identity as that of being Jewish which kept them from fully intergrating into their host society. Ideally they wanted to someday return to their homeland, which of course many of them did with the creation of Israel.

So, the key elements of a Disapora are:

1) Something forces them out of their homeland.

2) They go out and spread their communities throughout other countries.

3) They still keep their identity to the homeland. They still keep the traditions of the homeland and while certainly participating in the activities of their host country (I call it the host country on purpose) their strong bonds to each other and their identity with their homeland keeps them somewhat apart from fully intergrating into the society of their host country. They feel more connected to members of the Disapora who live in other host countries than they do to members of their host country.

4) They dream of returning to their homeland when the conditions that forced them to leave are removed.

The Disapora can exist for many, many generations if the conditions above exists. It is kind of what was Lord Tebbit was talking about with the "Cricket Test". Pakistanis of the 3rd, 4th generation and even beyond - born in Great Britian, living in Great Britian their entire life but still placing their primary loyalty to Pakistan instead of Great Britain. 

Now, with Third World Countries (and I guess Ireland) the leaders use that term very specifically to try keep people who left their county (mostly due to economic reasons) tied to and indentifying with the country they left with the hope that they will return someday and share the wealth and success they obtained in the host country with the country they left. In a way it is colonialization in reverse.

So, of course living in a country who is primarily the "host country" immigrants who talk about their "Diaspora" concern me as it says to me that eventially they want to take what they have gained from my country and bring it to a foreign land. And if they become naturalized citizens but still talk of a Diaspora, it means that they aren't as fully loyal as they pledge to be when they became a citizen of my country, as a citizen of a country should have no loyalty to any other country except to the country they are a citizen of.


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## Dean122

Ireland is a good example of a country that doesn't have much of a diaspora (despite what politicians might think).

Sure they meet the qualifications for number one and even number two. Poverty especially in the 19th century forced many many of their countrypeople out of their land and they did spread their communties throughout (though actually it was pretty much to North America).

But the third and fourth qualifications they mostly fail on. Perhaps at one time they didn't but now most of those who have left Ireland (or I should say the generations after the migration) don't hold their primary allegiance to the Irish homeland. Sure they might have t-shirts saying Kiss Me I am Irish and they might drink green beer on St. Pats day. But all of that is just superficial.  They no longer consider the host country the host country but their home country. And they might talk of the blessed Emerald Isle but to them it represents an island of myth and fantasy instead of a desire to someday return to a real place known as Ireland. And many if not most of them have now intermarried and once that happens it is hard if not impossible to keep the idea of a "diaspora" going.


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## Dean122

When people of the Diasapora starts marrying people of the host country that tends to weaken the Diaspora since future generations have other roots they can look to for self-identification and loyalty. 

Racial distinctions between the Diaspora and the host country in the past have minimized such marrages and that is how the concept of a Diaspora can be mistaken as a racial concept rather than a cultural one.


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## Lugubert

For a moment returning to the OP's 


panjabigator said:


> What countries have a large South Asian population?


I get the feeling that there is a noticeable communiy of Pakistanis in Norway. In Sweden, we mainly notice Keshdhari (those not cutting their hair, and wearing turbans) Sihks, in many cases owners of Indian restaurants. If I'm correctly informed, there are currently three gurdwaras (Sikh place of worship) in Sweden for the probably 1000-2000 Sikhs.


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## DickHavana

In Spain, there are India minorities (established a lot of years ago) in the Canary Islands, Ceuta y Melilla (as in Gibraltar). They are merchants (all that zones are taxe-free). I don't know Ceuta y Melilla, but in the Canary Islands the India presence is very evident. 

"Pakistaní" presence is more notable as a new inmigration-element of low-resources, and I know that in cities as Madrid there is a increasing community from Pakistan and Bangla-Desh.

I was twice in Switzerland, some years ago, and I remember that in that nation was frequent to see Tamil Indians (their appearance was South-India, but it's possible I get wrong). I was in Interlaken twice and there were some people with Islamic South East Asia appearance (Malayans or Indonesians?). I don't know if they were tourists or people working there. In Oslo (Norway) I remember that there was too a no-little community from Pakistan.


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## panjabigator

Very interesting.  By the way Lugubert, kesh means hair and darii means beard.  I am a Sikh, but not a Keshdari one.


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## DickHavana

I remember that when the rock-star Freddy Mercury (Queen) died, newspapers gave his original name and origins:Frederick Bulsara was born in Zanzibar and his religion was parsi. I supposed his family were from Bombay, with a Persian-origin Parsi community. I supposed too that his family migrated to England in the 60's due to polithical instability in East Africa.

There is a film that be about the India-community exodus from East Africa: "Mississippi Masala", directed by Mira Nair.


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## Lugubert

panjabigator said:


> Very interesting. By the way Lugubert, kesh means hair and darii means beard.


I know, and that, or rather the turban, is why I can identify them.


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## MarX

Hi!

In Jakarta there's a good number of South Asians. Many students my former high school were of Indian descent.

Many of them were concentrated in the *Pasar Baru* area. I reckon there was even an Indian school there.

Salam,


MarX


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## balasang

There are a good number of South Asians in major Philippine cities. In my city, they're usually retain businessmen(as opposed to the five-six) like the ethnic Chinese. stereotype of them in Manila. And from my encounters with them, they seem to be good in conversational vernacular(with a trace of their accent, of course)


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