# Take it easy, my brother Charles



## Casquilho

Hi all,
my first question here shall be about a translation I'm trying to perform, of Jorge Ben Jor's "Take it easy my brother Charles", to Latin. I'll post it in Latin as long as I can, and in English.

_Take it easy_, frater mi Carolum
_Take it easy_ frater in [colore/colorem¹]?

Take it easy, my brother Charles
Take it easy, my brother of colour¹

1. Ablative or accusative? I never know what to use with the preposition "in"!

Obs: The parts in itallics are sung in English by Jorge Ben, so did I choose to not translate them.


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## italo_da_b

Tolle facile, frater Caroli
Tolle facile, frater coloris


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## Casquilho

I thought the vocative of Carolus is Carolum. Am I wrong?
Also, "brother of colour" is here used in the same sense of "brother in arms" (Portuguse "irmão de armas"), "blood brother" (Pt "irmão de sangue, irmão consangüíneo"), "milk brother" ("irmão de leite"). So I  wasn't much certain about the use of genitive. Perhaps I've made a bad translation of the Portuguese "irmão de cor" to English!


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## Stoicorum_simia

Casquilho said:


> I thought the vocative of Carolus is Carolum. Am I wrong?


Carol*e*


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## Starfrown

Casquilho said:


> I thought the vocative of Carolus is Carolum. Am I wrong?
> Also, "brother of colour" is here used in the same sense of "brother in arms" (Portuguse "irmão de armas"), "blood brother" (Pt "irmão de sangue, irmão consangüíneo"), "milk brother" ("irmão de leite"). So I  wasn't much certain about the use of genitive. Perhaps I've made a bad translation of the Portuguese "irmão de cor" to English!


In the US, when we speak of a person "of color," we are generally talking about an African American.

This translation might be a bit tricky.  In the Portugese, the writer repeats the term _irmão_ twice, once in the idiomatic phrase _irmão de cor_.  As you note, English has a similar expression "brother in arms."  I'm not sure, however, whether Latin has a similar expression containing _frater_.  I did find the term _belli/armorum socius_, so it might be possible for us to take some license here and just replace _socius_ with _frater_:

Take it easy, frater mi Carole
Take it easy, frater mi belli


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## Stoicorum_simia

Starfrown said:


> In the US, when we speak of a person "of color," we are generally talking about an African American.


I think a literal translation into Latin will look at least as obscure as it does in English. Can you explain the sense a bit further, Casquilho?


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## Casquilho

The singer, Jorge Ben Jor, is adressing his friend Charles and, as long as I understand, he meant Charles and he share the color, both have African ascendancy and dark skin. Poetically, they're compatriots, and Jorge is kinda stating the pride of race.


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## Starfrown

Casquilho said:


> The singer, Jorge Ben Jor, is adressing his friend Charles and, as long as I understand, he meant Charles and he share the color, both have African ascendancy and dark skin. Poetically, they're compatriots, and Jorge is kinda stating the pride of race.


Now I'm a bit confused.  Above you suggest that _irmão de cor_ means the same thing as "brother in arms," but now you say that he's referring to his skin color.  If indeed he is referring to skin color, the translation I gave above won't work.


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## Stoicorum_simia

Starfrown said:


> Now I'm a bit confused.  Above you suggest that _irmão de cor_ means the same thing as "brother in arms," but now you say that he's referring to his skin color.  If indeed he is referring to skin color, the translation I gave above won't work.


Not 'the same thing' surely, but an analogous expression, using 'brother' to mean one who shares something, whether serving in the same army division or having a comparable skin colour. But I don't think _frater_ can be used quite that way in Latin; _socius_ is much more promising. 
The next problem is that to talk about skin colour in this closely defined way is definitely post-classical, reflecting different perceptions of ethnicity in the early modern period. _Niger_ in Latin (classical and for all I know medieval), when applied to a person's appearance, could mean equally someone of (sub-Saharan) African descent (Nubian, Ethiopian), an Egyptian, or a dark-complexioned Italian or Greek person. And it would only be a descriptive, not a classificatory, term; people just weren't classified racially in terms of skin colour, although typical differences in appearance were of course noted and described.


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## Casquilho

I wrote my post rashly and induced you to error, Starfrown. I meant the expression "irmão de cor" implies a qualification, by what tie one is brother to another - and that tie, in my example, is skin colour, but it could be other things.

So, genitive works here?

Stoicorum, your post is very acute, but I think it would be inconsistent to translate a modern song to classical Latin, with classical terms. Further I didn't understand why _frater_ couldn't be used in the way we use brother; _socius_ seems to me a somewhat colder idea.


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## lacrimae

En mi opinión son correctas gramaticalmente tanto
frater coloris (genitivo)
como
frater colore (ablativo de cualidad , sin necesidad de preposición)
 Frater mi carole
Frater coloris /colore


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## Stoicorum_simia

Casquilho said:


> Stoicorum, your post is very acute, but I think it would be inconsistent to translate a modern song to classical Latin, with classical terms. Further I didn't understand why _frater_ couldn't be used in the way we use brother; _socius_ seems to me a somewhat colder idea.



Well, _frater_ just isn't used like that, however obvious a usage it may seem in modern languages; in Latin, if you call someone your 'brother' and he isn't literally so, you mean he's your boyfriend, which is not what you intend, I suppose.
Feel free to call me Simia, by the way.


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## Secco

Socius generis (Ovid)
"Mate  of the same race "

Or if you prefer "Frater"

Gaudent perfusi sanguine fratrum (Virgil)
joyfully they steep themselves in blood of their brethren

"sanguinis frater" ,brother of race.

Not the only two possibilities.


As adjective you could use coloratus 
("with a bronze color",pt brônzeo),
in this way you could remain faithful,
somehow,to text song and at the same time you 
could remain faithful,somehow, to classical Latin.

Usque coloratis amnis devexus ab Indis.(Virgil)
"Which from the swart-skinned Aethiops bears him down."

I think that here Virgil used a poetic term to say "black".

In addition,you could play on a "potential" ambiguity.

Generis Socia (Ovid)
"Sister"


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## Stoicorum_simia

Secco said:


> Socius generis (Ovid)
> "Mate  of the same race "
> 
> Or if you prefer "Frater"
> 
> Gaudent perfusi sanguine fratrum (Virgil)
> joyfully they steep themselves in blood of their brethren



Yes, of course _frater_ is possible if you are stressing a genetic connexion rather than just similarity - I should have thought of that.


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## Casquilho

Thank you!
I didn't know _frater_ worked in such a way in Latin, I have many times read "brother" with our sense in translations of Horace and Ovid, that I thought it would be equal in Latin.
Lacrimae, that guess about ablative of quality is precisely what I have in mind!
Thank you Secco, now I'm convinced _socius_ is definitively what I want.
Simia, your nick means "imitator of the Stoics", right?


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## Stoicorum_simia

Casquilho said:


> Simia, your nick means "imitator of the Stoics", right?


Yes indeed, though less polite. Try googling it (possibly in the accusative) for the context - although sadly I can't aspire to the stature of the original.


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