# Berlusconi



## Aeneas

Io so questo e un foro per le parole, non cultura, ma sto curiouso rispetto ala situazione di Silvio Berlusconi.  I popoli presano di sorpresa; essi sono arrabiati?  Le provisione hai per il futuro?     
Mi dispiace per mio italiano.  Per favore, fai le correzioni.


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## mimitabby

I would like to know this too


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## Alfry

Aeneas said:
			
		

> Io so *che *questo e *è* un foro *forum* per le parole, non *per la *cultura, ma sto *sono* curiouso rispetto ala *circa la* situazione di Silvio Berlusconi. I popoli presano *la gente è stata presa* di sorpresa; (essi, it's better to remove that) sono arrabiati? Le Quali provisione hai per il futuro?
> Mi dispiace per mio italiano. Per favore, fai le correzioni.


 
Ho solo fatto le correzioni.


ciao


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## Alfry

sorry, just a little self-correction:
la gente è stata presa di sorpresa; sono arrabiati è arrabbiata

1. gente isn't plural.
2. arrabbiarsi requires 2 b (I do not like that verb though widely used in spoken Italian)


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## skjc

ascoltavo la radio (ogni giorno) e direi che sia 50/50, questo voule dire 50% della gente ci sono conteni e 50% non sono contenti. Ovviamente questo è solo il mio esperienza dalla ascoltatore. Direi anche che Io sono Inglese e probabilemente sapiamo il meno della europa  

I listen to the radio (every day) and I would say that it is 50/50, this means 50% of the people they are happy and 50% unhappy. Obviously this is only my experience from the listeners. I would also say that I am English and probably we know the least about Europe


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## Silvia

Aeneas said:
			
		

> Io so questo e un foro per le parole, non cultura, ma sto curiouso rispetto ala situazione di Silvio Berlusconi.


 Hai postato questo thread nel forum sbagliato 

I'm moving it to the Culture Forum


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## zebedee

Would somebody be so kind as to translate the original question for the benefit of those who don't speak Italian?

Thanks,
zeb


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## mimitabby

Io so questo e un foro per le parole, non cultura, ma sto curiouso rispetto ala situazione di Silvio Berlusconi. I popoli presano di sorpresa; essi sono arrabiati? Le provisione hai per il futuro? 

I am curious about the situation with Berlusconi, the people seem surprised, are they angry? what's up for the future?


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## morgana

Just a personal opinion...
I am really angry and I have been since 2001, but I think that the majority of Italians is just a mass of ignorant hypocrits. i.e. as long as their belly is full they don't care. Any Italian to contradict me? 

And may I ask you all Americans and English what you think of your president/prime minister, or is is too off topic?


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## lainyn

I'm Canadian, and I think my Prime Minister, Paul Martin, is an idiot, for the most part. Unfortunately, there aren't many viable options other than him. I don't like his involvement, or apparent involvement, in the sponsorship scandal and he seems to be too concerned in his own business interests and not in Canada's. I'm not well-educated on the matter, though. I also don't really care for his idea of "military spending" but I do appreciate the fact that he refused to be a part of the US's idea for a nuclear defense system. I want him to do something to protect our right to the north-west passage. And also to protect BC's coast from being wrongfully fished out by Alaskans. 

Bah.
~Natasha

PS: I know you didn't ask for a Canadian opinion, but I thought I'd give it anyways!


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## Agattau

I haven’t been living in Italy from a number of years, so I’m afraid I can’t answer your question, nor that I would be able to anyway, and the few time I go visit Italy I don’t really care about the government.
However, I’m just gonna say a couple of views, and then get away from this thread as far as possible. 

- Has Italy changed for the better since Berlusconi? I guess not … politics is not about the people, it’s a game among politicians trying to win power. I kid you not, there must be like over 20 different parties to pick from in Italy. It’s more like a show business more than anything; and then the guy is a media tycoon, and TV in Italy is a BIG institution.

Personally I think Italy’s political world is a big mess or a big joke if you like, and far too complex for the common men to care or understand all the b***s**t he/she has to hear everyday, not to mention bureaucracy ; probably the majority of people don’t even know what to make of it.

As far as I know, the new currency, a part from the initial novelty, has not been well received at all - my sister is lucky, she has her own little business and doing OK, even if she has to work her a** off to pay taxes, but a lot of families are struggling to make ends meet with the same wages they had before the Lira changed to Euro, and I feel really sorry for them; basically what you could spend on before in Liras you cannot get now in Euros . I don’t know if the same for other European countries. 

In the end, not matter who you vote for, the government always gets in  


Disclaimer: I hope not to have offended anybody as is not my intention; probably due to my English


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## DDT

morgana said:
			
		

> Just a personal opinion...
> I am really angry and I have been since 2001, but I think that the majority of Italians is just a mass of ignorant hypocrits. i.e. as long as their belly is full they don't care. Any Italian to contradict me?



I fully agree with you

DDT


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## Agattau

morgana said:
			
		

> Just a personal opinion...
> I am really angry and I have been since 2001, but I think that the majority of Italians is just a mass of ignorant hypocrits. i.e. as long as their belly is full they don't care. Any Italian to contradict me?


You are 100% correct.


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## cuchuflete

morgana said:
			
		

> Just a personal opinion...
> I am really angry and I have been since 2001, but I think that the majority of Italians is just a mass of ignorant hypocrits. i.e. as long as their belly is full they don't care. Any Italian to contradict me?
> 
> And may I ask you all Americans and English what you think of your president/prime minister, or is is too off topic?


Morgana,
You are probably correct, and we should open a new thread to continue discussing your question.  The short reply that just may fit within this thread, is that I love and respect my President as much as you  appear to love and respect your own Mr. B!  And you don't have a monopoly on ignorant hypocrits.  We have our share of that breed also.

Un abbraccio,
Cuchuflete


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## JJchang

Can someone explain a bit about Italian politics please? I understand how the states voted Bush for president (because they have more than 1/2 the population being igonrant hypocrits), but what about Italy? All the Italians I know hate Berlusconi.


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## morgana

JJchang said:
			
		

> Can someone explain a bit about Italian politics please? I understand how the states voted Bush for president (because they have more than 1/2 the population being igonrant hypocrits), but what about Italy? All the Italians I know hate Berlusconi.



Actually, all the Americans I know hate Bush...
I guess that a great part of the people who vote for the two a******s haven't got the opportunity, nor the interest, to get in contact with foreigners. This is only my theory, though... when I think of a Bush elector, I imagine a family in a countryside village in, say, Arkansas. When i think of a Berlusconi elector, I imagine a family lost in the countryside of the "Pianura Panada"... more or less the same kind of people.


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## Alfry

morgana said:
			
		

> Any Italian to contradict me?


 
No Italian, with more than 2 working electrons, could contradict you... 
I'm biting my tongue... I can't go on.
Mods would correctly censure my behaviour.


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## Jana337

Alfry said:
			
		

> No Italian, with more than 2 working electrons, could contradict you...
> I'm biting my tongue... I can't go on.
> Mods would correctly censure my behaviour.



Oh, this is getting harsh. What about those Italians who - far from being keen on_ Cavaliere_ - have nevertheless been voting for Berlusconi just because they despise (quite understandably for me) Prodi, D'Alema etc.? Are they necessarily short of the grey matter?

Jana


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## DDT

Jana337 said:
			
		

> Oh, this is getting harsh. What about those Italians who - far from being keen on_ Cavaliere_ - have nevertheless been voting for Berlusconi just because they despise (quite understandably for me) Prodi, D'Alema etc.? Are they necessarily short of the grey matter?
> 
> Jana



Well, Jana, I do think that no one with a full awareness of the events that led Mr Berlusconi to enter politics might have voted for him...the fact is I don't appreciate the Opposition either, I don't trust them either, but for instance they never publicly stated racist positions like Mr Berlusconi (he said Arabic culture is inferior) or his allied parties (one of them is continously spitting on Southern Italian people) at least.

The point is that politics makes (almost) no more sense in Italy, the problem might be traced back to an ethical matter...and try to talk with the ones who voted for him because "they despise Prodi, D'Alema, etc." as you said...you will find out that they do belong to the category "as long as their belly is full they don't care" depicted by Morgana in such a brilliant way, those people just normally say "I don't care about politics that much" or sthg...sure, they just care about themselves.

There would be lots of things to add, but that's pointless, I'm not here to defend one side against the other (both of them do disappoint me)...I am simply crossing my fingers for the future of my country...

DDT


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## Jana337

DDT, my post was not primarily about Italian politics. I keep a close enough eye on it to understand fully why some people are disgusted. I would just appreciate a slightly more respectful tone...

Jana


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## valerie

All you Italian are really bad mooded about politics, as I see here. Anybody would care about explaining something about the politic system and the current ongoing politics problem?


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## winnie

this is my two cents...

i noted that a lot of people said Italians are not interested in politcs because whatsover party you vote for, man in the street dosn't have any advantage.
i completely disagree with that point of view!
any behavior in ordinary life is politics: if you care about ambient you don't litter and you want the others not litter too. if you think that we are waisting a lot of natural resources with our absurd way of living you would like politicians with the capability of taking care of it.
if you think health and labour are essential rights for every human beeing, you state a political value. but even in the ordinary daily little things like to take a train, you sure appreciate to find a seat, and having or not having seats free is a matter of number of coaches, thus in last analisys a matter of costs or, better, should  'public servicies' gain profit or are they servicies tout court?
if people would deeper involved in politics maybe things wuold be better, the big mistake my fellow citizes make is complaing and complainig about their lives and about politicians. they don't really understand that we are the State and we must change what is wrong. 
now mr. berlusconi says things are well and they are going to be better! infact oil price has raised only 20% in the last year! if you need a special medical check, say NMR, you have to wait only 6 months in public structure but if you pay for it, in the same structure, only few days are required!

i stop here becouse i know my English is poor and dull, but i hope i was able to make you understand my thoughts.


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## Silvia

morgana said:
			
		

> the majority of Italians is just a mass of ignorant hypocrits.


 You have quite a low opinion of Italians in general.


			
				morgana said:
			
		

> When i think of a Berlusconi elector, I imagine a family lost in the countryside of the "Pianura Panada"...


 Come on, let's be serious. Don't you really know who the people voting for Berlusconi are? Shop owners, business owners, bosses, rich people, upper classes as regards the North and a big piece of cake of the South, for reasons I won't list. In short, ognuno porta l'acqua al suo mulino.


			
				valerie said:
			
		

> All you Italian are really bad mooded about politics, as I see here. Anybody would care about explaining something about the politic system and the current ongoing politics problem?


 Valerie, that's another thread probably. If you've read so far, this one is about the Italian Prime Minister.


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## cristóbal

[soapbox]

I know very little about Berlusconi, and I didn't vote for Bush, but I'd certainly appreciate it if people would stop the *blatant bigotry* toward those living in certain regions of the United States.  You may think you're right, but considering that someone has already said that he/she knows no one that likes Bush, well, I find it hard to believe that you could even begin to imagine what it's like to live in rural Arkansas.  

[/soapbox]


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## cuchuflete

cristóbal said:
			
		

> [soapbox]
> 
> I know very little about Berlusconi, and I didn't vote for Bush, but I'd certainly appreciate it if people would stop the *blatant bigotry* toward those living in certain regions of the United States. You may think you're right, but considering that someone has already said that he/she knows no one that likes Bush, well, I find it hard to believe that you could even begin to imagine what it's like to live in rural Arkansas.
> 
> [/soapbox]


Good point Chris.
Just to bore people with facts, here is how Arkansas voted in the last presidential election:

 Arkansas 472,940 51% 422,768 46% 13,421 1%
 .............Bush..............Kerry...........Nadar


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## Outsider

What I find curious is how the core countries of continental E.U. all have governments that much of their population despises: France, Germany, and (I hadn't realised it until I read this thread) Italy!


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## Aeneas

It's currently extremely fashionable to portray the leader of your country as a mindless moron.  It's much easier to nitpick faults with a leader than to continue to stay politically involved and attempt to benefit society.  I realize this isn't a new trend, but with the proliferation of media outlets, especially the internet, whining about politicians has to be at an all time high.
I voted for Bush in 2000 and 2004, and was in Italy during months leading up to the 2001 election, and was in favor of Berlusconi.  I heard all the "mafioso" claims, and the students' claims that he was a fascist masquerading.  Both Bush and Berlusconi received the percentage number of votes, so their electorate do not only consist of one demographic group.
EVERY politicians primary objective is to get (re)elected.    
Anyway, the reason I started this post was to find out information about public opinon, among Italians, and learn the direction Italian politics may be headed.  
I would still like to learn more about these topics.


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## Silvia

Aeneas said:
			
		

> I would still like to learn more about these topics.


 Hi Aeneas, please also read this thread, especially my post #5.

I don't want to go against politicians at all costs, I try to be as objective as possible about most topics. So I will tell you what is positive about our present Prime Minister.

*Money*
He's rich, that means he doesn't live off of us poor people like all the rest of politicians. For that reason, he's proud not to take advantage of his benefits as a member of Parliament (he could get most things for free, but his sense of ethics is a true thing). Also, when he invites someone over, he's rather charming... private planes, helicopters, villas...

*Diplomacy*
He's a good diplomat, he can say yes to Bush, Putin and anyone else at the same time (just like a good prostitute). 

*Sense of humor*
He likes to joke a lot, he had the courage to sing too (he's a bad singer though). He's used to gaffes as well, but never underestimate his ability to turn things.

*Ideology*
He must be in good faith in his aim to save our country from Communism. He's fighting the old system, for which people working for the State or Government didn't actually work, they would go to the grocery store instead or to the market for a stroll... that's rather annoying for anyone of us who actually works. It's a difficult task... but worth the fight. He wants Italy to be a competitive country: we have ideas, we have brains, we have a beautiful country, though few natural resources and quite a big public debt. He's genuinely trying to square the circle. He's trying to change our country's looks (focusing on infrastructures above all), but our country's so old that it's going to cost us a fortune.

That's it, in a nutshell


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## cuchuflete

Silvia said:
			
		

> Hi Aeneas, please also read this thread, especially my post #5.
> 
> I don't want to go against politicians at all costs, I try to be as objective as possible about most topics. So I will tell you what is positive about our present Prime Minister.
> 
> *Money*
> 
> *Diplomacy*
> 
> *Sense of humor*
> 
> *Ideology*
> 
> 
> That's it, in a nutshell



That sounds like an objective description Silvia.  For the sake of those of us who don't know your country, could you also provide an equivalent list of negatives?

Thanks,
Cuciu


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## Silvia

Oh, negatives?! I guess the list would be too long! Well, I'll try to make it short: he's focusing on the wrong things (infrastructures, just like during fascism), supporting the wrong persons? and wars (once more, like during fascism), with big cuts in the public health system and school system... I'll leave this to other Italians...


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## Manuela

LOL...Silvia you crack me up!
I just wanted to say that politics..just like many matters in life is very subjective:
If you agree with most of your "leader's" ideas, he's great; If you don't, he's a moron!
I don't agree with all of Berlusconi's or Bush's or (in my case) Martin's governing..but you name me one world leader who had every citizen loving him...that's democracy (the right to chose) and just because we don't agree there's no need to trash the voter.  We however have every right to trash and mock the politicians
just kidding...my opinion of Italian government: is not as bad and evil as we feared in 2001
my hopes for Italy's future: is that an honest man step up to the plate


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## Cath.S.

Manuela said:
			
		

> my opinion of Italian government: is not as bad and evil as we feared in 2001


What you say inspires me with a passing thought: this is how politicians manage to get populations to accept them : they lead you to think it's going to be the Armageddon once they're elected (the game is easier to play with several parties, some of them being labeled "opposition" parties). Then they get elected and nothing special happens, just good old traditional exploitation, then everybody's relieved and goes "see, Soandso isn't the monster they'd made him out to be". But he is, of course, a classic monster but a monster all the same.


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## DDT

Manuela said:
			
		

> LOL...Silvia you crack me up!
> I just wanted to say that politics..just like many matters in life is very subjective:
> If you agree with most of your "leader's" ideas, he's great; If you don't, he's a moron!
> I don't agree with all of Berlusconi's or Bush's or (in my case) Martin's governing..but you name me one world leader who had every citizen loving him...that's democracy (the right to chose) and just because we don't agree there's no need to trash the voter.  We however have every right to trash and mock the politicians
> just kidding...my opinion of Italian government: is not as bad and evil as we feared in 2001
> my hopes for Italy's future: is that an honest man step up to the plate



Quite a brisk way to look at things...

I cannot but mistrust all the Italian politicians...but whenever someone starts to express racist positions...well, I really cannot understand your positive judgement    ...moreover, have you spent quite a long time in Italy lately recently?

DDT


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## DDT

egueule said:
			
		

> What you say inspires me with a passing thought: this is how politicians manage to get populations to accept them : they lead you to think it's going to be the Armageddon once they're elected (the game is easier to play with several parties, some of them being labeled "opposition" parties). Then they get elected and nothing special happens, just good old traditional exploitation, then everybody's relieved and goes "see, Soandso isn't the monster they'd made him out to be". But he is, of course, a classic monster but a monster all the same.



Amidst the worse defects of my fellow countrymen forgetfulness is one of the most dangerous ones...   

DDT


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## Manuela

My dear friends don't get me wrong..I don't see politics with pink glasses..my "it's not as bad as we feared.." comment was refered to the fact that in 2001 we thought he was going to be the next Hitler/Mussolini (or close)..I don't deny the fact that he has a constant propaganda 'regime' going or that he's not a rotten business man (who's looking at his interest first)..but my point is: why are we so horrified? aren't all politicians (in a way or another) like him???


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## danzomicrobo

I don't know anything about Berlusconi, other than that he is the Prime Minister in Italy, but I don't think that politicians and politics can be all that different from how it is done in the U.S.

In politics, as in life, we must all walk a fine line between naivete and cynicism. In order to successfully negotiate life, we have to have a clear view of reality, so that we can plot our course.

I think that most politicians are trying to do what they think is in the long term interest of their constituents, sometimes against the will of their constituents. They are confined in their positions like actors in a play, much like each of us is in our job.

Sometimes you are trying to stretch your authority to achieve an objective. Sometimes you are just "phoning it in", but most of the time you are doing the best you can with what is available to you.

Politicians infuriate us because, roughly half the time, they take positions that we don't like. A good portion of this is because, we don't argue over all the issues that come up. If issues come up that we all agree on, all the politicians agree and they become non-issues. 

The political parties define themselves by their differing positions on the remaining issues, and the electorate is left to choose from list A or list B. Each of us must make a decision, when list A has 3 positions that we really care about and list B has 2 positions that we really care about.

Our situations are not hopeless and neither are the politicians.

As far as the last U.S. Presidential election; I know people who voted for Bush, Kerry and Nader. I believe that all of these people voted for who they thought would do the best job for the country. I think they are all logical, caring and patriotic Americans. If I only knew people who voted for one of the candidates, I would be concerned that my view of the world and my circle of friends were too narrow.


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