# Ukrainian: Addressing family members (tense/pronouns)



## drdanielfc

Hello,

I'm a 3rd generation Ukrainian-American. At home, when I ask my mother a question (ie "Чи ти маєш папір?"), I'm corrected "Чи _мама_ має папір." I'm wondering why I would speak to my mother in the 3rd person. Is this correct? Also, how would I address with a pronoun then - вона? If not, are parents generally "ви" or "ти"?

Thanks,
Daniel


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## iobyo

Perhaps she wants you to address her as 'mom': _чи ти маєш папір, мамо_?


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## Selyd

Your mother talks after the old consuetude of Ukrainians /Ваша матір говорить за старими звичаями українців/:
*Мамо, Ви** маєте** папір?*
*Мамо, у Вас **є папір?*
*Мамо, дайте аркуш **папе**ру, будь ласка.
Матір/батько мають папір?

*
* *


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## drdanielfc

Selyd said:


> Your mother talks after the old consuetude of Ukrainians /Ваша матір говорить за старими українців/:
> *Мамо, Ви** маєте** папір?*
> *Мамо, у Вас **є папір?*
> *Мамо, дайте аркуш **папе**ру, будь ласка.
> Матір/батько мають папір?
> 
> *



Thanks for the clarification. When you say "old," what would be correct in modern Ukrainian? Or do you mean its an old custom to speak to one's parents in a formal tense?


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## Selyd

*W**hen I was small*
_ - Батько сказали ...
 - Мати просили Вас ..._
*It is now talked*
_ - Батько сказав ...
 - Мати просила Вас ..._
*But not all.                 *


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## swintok

drdanielfc said:


> Thanks for the clarification. When you say "old," what would be correct in modern Ukrainian? Or do you mean its an old custom to speak to one's parents in a formal tense?



All of the forms are correct in modern Ukrainian.  What is standard or acceptable depends greatly on where you are and your background.  The Ukrainian spoken in North and South America and the Ukrainian communities in Europe outside of Ukraine tends to be more conservative and to preserve older forms that are considered quaint or even archaic in Ukraine today.  Even within Ukraine, however, there is a divide between what you would hear in a large urban setting as opposed to what you would hear in a village.  

There is a similar difference generationally, since language is a living organism that is constantly changing.  For example, even in Ukraine it is not uncommon to hear a child address his or her mother with the informal ти, the mother to address her own mother as Ви, and that woman to only speak to her own mother in the third person plural (Чи мама хочуть... або Чи мама хотіли б...).  I would venture to say that this last form of address -- using the third person plural -- is now quite rare in Ukraine among family members, but I have noticed it is still used occasionally as an honourific for someone considered important, such as clergy, but even politicians and oligarchs.  It is much more common outside of Ukraine, but even there is disappearing under the influence of Ukrainian from Ukraine.  

Of course, all of this is not only true in Ukrainian.  In English, I am still shocked and mildly annoyed when waiters, cashiers, etc., address me by my first name, whereas someone only ten years younger than me is not bothered at all.


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## drdanielfc

swintok said:


> All of the forms are correct in modern Ukrainian.  What is standard or acceptable depends greatly on where you are and your background.  The Ukrainian spoken in North and South America and the Ukrainian communities in Europe outside of Ukraine tends to be more conservative and to preserve older forms that are considered quaint or even archaic in Ukraine today.  Even within Ukraine, however, there is a divide between what you would hear in a large urban setting as opposed to what you would hear in a village.
> 
> There is a similar difference generationally, since language is a living organism that is constantly changing.  For example, even in Ukraine it is not uncommon to hear a child address his or her mother with the informal ти, the mother to address her own mother as Ви, and that woman to only speak to her own mother in the third person plural (Чи мама хочуть... або Чи мама хотіли б...).  I would venture to say that this last form of address -- using the third person plural -- is now quite rare in Ukraine among family members, but I have noticed it is still used occasionally as an honourific for someone considered important, such as clergy, but even politicians and oligarchs.  It is much more common outside of Ukraine, but even there is disappearing under the influence of Ukrainian from Ukraine.
> 
> Of course, all of this is not only true in Ukrainian.  In English, I am still shocked and mildly annoyed when waiters, cashiers, etc., address me by my first name, whereas someone only ten years younger than me is not bothered at all.



Thank you very much - that is exactly the explanation I needed.


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## Selyd

swintok said:


> All of the forms are correct in modern Ukrainian. What is standard or acceptable depends greatly on where you are and your background. The Ukrainian spoken in North and South America and the Ukrainian communities in Europe outside of Ukraine tends to be more conservative and to preserve older forms that are considered quaint or even archaic in Ukraine today. Even within Ukraine, however, there is a divide between what you would hear in a large urban setting as opposed to what you would hear in a village.
> 
> There is a similar difference generationally, since language is a living organism that is constantly changing. For example, even in Ukraine it is not uncommon to hear a child address his or her mother with the informal ти, the mother to address her own mother as Ви, and that woman to only speak to her own mother in the third person plural (Чи мама хочуть... або Чи мама хотіли б...). I would venture to say that this last form of address -- using the third person plural -- is now quite rare in Ukraine among family members, but I have noticed it is still used occasionally as an honourific for someone considered important, such as clergy, but even politicians and oligarchs. It is much more common outside of Ukraine, but even there is disappearing under the influence of Ukrainian from Ukraine.
> 
> Of course, all of this is not only true in Ukrainian. In English, I am still shocked and mildly annoyed when waiters, cashiers, etc., address me by my first name, whereas someone only ten years younger than me is not bothered at all.


Все це так, але то є невихованість. І в критичній ситуації зазвучить: *"Не тикай батькові/матері/бабі/дідові, поганцю!!! Молоко на губах не обсохло!!!/Шмарклі не висохли під носом!!!"*


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## swintok

Selyd said:


> Все це так, але то є невихованість. І в критичній ситуації зазвучить: *"Не тикай батькові/матері/бабі/дідові, поганцю!!! Молоко на губах не обсохло!!!/Шмарклі не висохли під носом!!!"*



Може так, але те, що я вважаю невихованістю стає з часом новою нормою.  Мені здається, що головне завдання молоді завжди було й завжди буде образити старше покоління!


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## Selyd

swintok said:


> Може так, але те, що я вважаю невихованістю стає з часом новою нормою. Мені здається, що головне завдання молоді завжди було й завжди буде образити старше покоління!


Ви говорите сумні речі. Та, дякувати Богові, це противне ментальності етнічних українців. Це - чуже, не наше.


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## Ukrainito

Моя мама зверталася до своєї мами й тата на _*ви*_, але я завжди звертався і до мами, і до бабусі, і до дідуся, і до всіх інших родичів на _*ти*_ — і це ніколи не було проблемою, мене жодного разу не виправляли й не звинувачували у нешанобливому ставленні до старших. Традиції змінюються із часом.


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