# May they not arrive late.



## Michael Zwingli

I would like to have this sample sentence translated into both Attic and Modern Demotic Greek. I will make an attempt below:

Attic:
_[οὗτοι/σφεῖς] ὀψέ μή ἀφίξοιντο._

Demotic (Modern):
_αυτοί_ _αργά μη θα φταστείς._

One aspect of this that I am unsure about is which pronoun to use in the Ancient Greek. Please critique/correct the above attempts.


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## Helleno File

Hi MZ

As you've had no replies yet from native speakers here are my attempts in MG:

Να μην φτάσουν αργά
Να μην καθηστερήσουν
Να μην αργήσουν

I hope I have the negative jussive construction right. In any event the 3rd pers pl  subjunctive of φτάνω is definitely φτάσουν.  No 1 is my literal version. I might choose no 3 in speech, possibly even να μην χασομερήσουν with a strong suggestion that they might waste time on the way! All down to the context of course.

Let's await further developments and corrections.


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## Michael Zwingli

Helleno File said:


> Hi MZ


Hey there, File! I noticed your designation of "NW England", which my brain seems to have initially interpreted as "New England", and I almost asked you "whereabouts?"...so silly! Thanks for your response, regardless.


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## Perseas

I like all three modern Greek verbs proposed by Helleno File, and I agree with his analysis. I'd add "μακάρι" in front of "να": μακάρι να ...


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## Helleno File

Perseas said:


> I like all three modern Greek verbs proposed by Helleno File, and I agree with his analysis. I'd add "μακάρι" in front of "να": μακάρι να ...


Thanks Perseas. I _very_ nearly added μακάρi!


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## ioanell

May they not arrive late​I'd like to ask native English speakers: Does this phrase starting with "may" have the sense of a wish on the part of the speaker, viz. is the phrase "I wish they wouldn't arrive late" equivalent (what I knew so far) or does it have the sense of an exhortation / command, something like "Tell them not to arrive late" (a translation by Helleno File that confused me)? Or it depends on the bigger text? It was Perseas' comment (I believe correct), which made me ask this question. 
​


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## Helleno File

Good question ioanell.  I originally took it as a general wish and that was behind my post  #2 above and my agreement with Perseas about μακάρι.  Thinking about your comment it could go beyond that to an implied suggestion of a negative consequence. Exhortation (nice old fashioned word!), yes; command in the sense of someone administering that negative consequence, only just.  Command in the sense of "tell them", no.

Sorry if I confused you with my Greek - possibly a nuance I was unaware of.


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## Michael Zwingli

ioanell said:


> Does this phrase starting with "may" have the sense of a wish on the part of the speaker...?


Yes, Ioanell. It is the expression of a wish/desire. Subjunctive in Latin, and (I assume) optative in Greek (?) It should not be construed as an "imperative", though.


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## Perseas

After reading the comments above (ioanell, thanks for the question), I think "*ας* μην αργήσουν" and even just "*να* μην αργήσουν" can work, but in a context from where it's obvious that someone wishes something, because "ας" and "να" have also other meanings. In contrast, "μακάρι να" marks directly the wish/desire.


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## ioanell

Michael Zwingli said:


> Modern Demotic Greek.


Just Modern Greek. We don't say Modern Demotic Greek. Demotic, after its prevalence over katharevousa and its official adoption by the State in 1976, is the only type of language now in Greece (with the exception of some instances where katharevousa is used by mainly church officials). Otherwise, depending on the education received, we can only talk about a more cultured or less neat usage of it.

After the necessary explanations:

MoGr.: Μακάρι να μη φτάσουν αργά (as already suggested by Helleno File and Perseas)

AGr.: εἴθ’ oὗτοι μὴ ὄψιμοι ἀφίξοιντο


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## Helleno File

A comment on the English in original post - "May they not be late". This is quite old fashioned and formal now. I can't see myself ever saying it.   It might occur for example in a context of a memorial: "May they always be remembered".

We have two ways of saying this in normal speech:

1) "I hope they are not late" - simple and clear. 

2) "Don't let them be late". Possibly ambiguous and depends on how it is stressed: 

a) Stress on late = jussive and emphatic. Suggests anything else could happen but the worst thing would be if they were _late_. 

b) Much more commonly, no stress or emphatic stress on don't = a command, don't allow them to be late.


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## Michael Zwingli

Helleno File said:


> "May they not be late". This is quite old fashioned and formal now. I can't see myself ever saying it.


Yes, of course. I realize that, but I might use it in certain circumstances, in favor of "I hope they're not late." Of course, I'm the guy who insists on obstinately using the word "gay" to mean "happy" from time to time, along with other similar insistences, simply to oppose the co-option of a great word (doesn't prevent me from getting a few strange or angry looks, which is ever-amusing to me). When it comes to language, I definitely have a streak of conservative preservationism in me.


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## ioanell

Michael Zwingli said:


> I would like to have this sample sentence translated into both Attic and Modern Demotic Greek.



Isn't really strange? In this thread you asked for some translational suggestions and, without "commenting" on them at all after they were given, you ended up commenting on an English expression/construction and its meanings.🤔


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## Helleno File

Michael Zwingli said:


> ... When it comes to language, I definitely have a streak of conservative preservationism in me.


Probably true of a lot of us here.


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