# A particular use of phrasal word repetition in Latin, to wit: Sic...sic...



## Michael Zwingli

Hi, guys.

I haven't posted much lately. Most of my effort of late has been involved with my attempting to do something using Adobe Illustrator. Since I have never used Illustrator before, the learning curve has been steep, and has absorbed nearly all my free time, and I have, as a result, had little time for Latin.

In a recent conversation with my brother, however, he asked me (since he knows that I am informally studying Latin) if I could make sense of the English translation of our maternal family motto, which is that of McMahon of Thomond in Clare, Munster, Ireland. I could not help him, and so I come to you all for help. The motto seems to involve a particular use of word repetition which cannot be translated literally.

The motto is: _Sic nos sic sacra tuemur_, which is commonly translated as "Thus we defend our sacred rights." I, however, feel this to be an improper translation, since _sacrum, _of which _sacra_ is the plural in the accusative case, has more the meaning of "observance", or "rite" as opposed to "right" perhaps those Irish ancients were using the wrong Latin word to convey their intended meaning? Even further, perhaps _sacra_ was employed as an effort to gain the resulting alliteration?

Beyond this, and which is more the point of my question, I do not understand the function of the repetition of _sic_ in the phrase. I can infer "thus we defend..." from _Sic nos tuemur_, but cannot envision how _...sic sacra..._ can be rendered as "our sacred rights", "our sacred rites", or indeed, "our sacred observances". _Sic_ in this case, assuming the statement is correct grammatically, seems somehow to carry the sense of _nos_ adjectivally/possessively to _sacra_, resulting in the same meaning as if one wrote: _Sic nos sacra nostra tuemur_. That is the only way that I can make sense of it. I am sure that there is some rule regarding the usage of _sic_ of which I am ignorant, which is the key to my understanding this.

Thanks, and cheers,
Mike


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## Snodv

Greetings,
You are of course right (!) about _rite_.  As for the doubled _sic_, I think it may just be redundant.  There are constructions to which it might be parallel, like _et...et_ and _neque...neque_, but there doesn't seem to be a similar sense for _sic...sic_. 
The motto is intriguing.  I wonder if it has to do with the Catholic-Protestant conflict that so cursed Ireland for centuries.


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## Michael Zwingli

Snodv said:


> The motto is intriguing.


Yes, I find it so, more because of the strange grammar and apparent problems with the translation of _sacra_ than anything else.


Snodv said:


> I wonder if it has to do with the Catholic-Protestant conflict that so cursed Ireland for centuries.


There is very little in modern Irish culture that has not been influenced by the English presence there, which basically began with the landing of English troops under Richard de Clare in 1170. I don't know very much about the history of the particular sept McMahon of Thomond, except that the last chieftain of the name was killed at the battle of Kinsale in 1602 following which the chiefly line became extinct. I am pretty ignorant about the history of the family armorials, including the subject motto. My mom was never too intensely interested in it herself; she would call it "ancient history". Perhaps I should know more, but as it is, I can't answer your question with any specificity.

If anyone has any insight about _...sic...sic..._ acting as I have inferred above, though, I will be happy to know it.


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## Scholiast

saluete amici!

Pardon me for butting in here. Two observations.
(1) It might be of interest to know what the armorial bearings that would appear above the motto illustrate (a sword? a book (the Bible?)? a fist?);
(2) Although _sic...sic..._ appears to be unusual, _OLD_ can cite Livy (6.12.11) for _sic eques, sic pedes...pugnant.
_
So I would hazard a preliminary guess that the sense is 'In the same way as we watch over/defend* ourselves, so we defend* the things we hold sacred'.

Σ

*Edited afterthought: perhaps best 'protect'.


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## Snodv

That was dumb of me!  I should've guessed that _nos_ could be accusative too.


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## Snodv

Out of curiosity, I looked up McMahon in (of all things) Wikipedia.    And there was the coat of arms.  Sorry I cannot use the heraldic terms, but there is a white shield with three red lions on it, not rampant but their bodies are facing to the left and their heads turned to look to the right over their backs.  Above the shield (the crest?) is a helmet with a miniature armored arm emerging from the top.  The hand is holding a sword.


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## Michael Zwingli

First of all, Scholiast, please don't ever feel that you are "butting in". I always find value in your contributions, as with:


Scholiast said:


> Although _sic...sic..._ appears to be unusual, _OLD_ can cite Livy (6.12.11) for _sic eques, sic pedes...pugnant._


I am going to look up that reference when I have time, since I find this an unusual and interesting construction.


Snodv said:


> Out of curiosity, I looked up McMahon in (of all things) Wikipedia.    And there was the coat of arms.  Sorry I cannot use the heraldic terms, but there is a white shield with three red lions on it, not rampant but their bodies are facing to the left and their heads turned to look to the right over their backs.  Above the shield (the crest?) is a helmet with a miniature armored arm emerging from the top.  The hand is holding a sword.


Wikipedia can be quite useful for a quick synopsis of almost any subject, and the articles are generally, though not universally, accurate. The art of describing armorial "achievements", as they are called, is known as blazonry. I think (though by no means am I sure of it) that the lions depicted there are known in blazonic (...here I go again, creating adjectives on the fly...) language as "lions passant".


Scholiast said:


> So I would hazard a preliminary guess that the sense is 'In the same way as we watch over/defend ourselves, so we defend the things we hold sacred'.


I should think that to be the most correct definition, which now gives me something definitive to report to my brother Dave. Thanks, guys!


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## Snodv

After a little digging, I find each lion is indeed _passant_ (stepping) but also _regardant _(looking backward).  Sorry to beat the dead, er, horse.


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## Michael Zwingli

You go on and beat that dead lion, Snody!


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