# уголь



## Assiduous student

Hi, can I ask about one more thing today?

The dictionaries give 3 declension patterns for уголь. Russian is so rich, it not only has 6 cases, but also 3 declension patterns, ha ha!

For a foreigner, it might be best to stick to the most common form. Is the genitive of уголь preferably улгЯ or Угля? And is there any reason to choose between Угли, углИ and Уголья in the plural? Thank you.


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## GCRaistlin

По таким вопросам лучше консультироваться в словаре - далеко не каждый носитель даст правильный (вернее, совпадающий с мнением автора словаря, потому что о правильности и неправильности ударений говорить в общем случае некорректно) ответ. Я, например, в данном случае не дал бы. Соответственно, в разговорной речи часто имеет место вариативность ударений.

В данном случае словарь нам говорит, что при склонении не будет неверным оставлять ударным корневое _у_ во всех значениях слова, но в зависимости от значения можно и выносить ударение за основу (делать ударным окончание). _Уголья_ я, пожалуй, слышал только в выражении _Глаза горят как уголья_ (это не значит, что _Глаза горят как у́гли_ не говорят).


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## Assiduous student

GCRaistlin said:


> По таким вопросам лучше консультироваться в словаре - далеко не каждый носитель даст правильный (вернее, совпадающий с мнением автора словаря, потому что о правильности и неправильности ударений говорить в общем случае некорректно) ответ. Я, например, в данном случае не дал бы. Соответственно, в разговорной речи часто имеет место вариативность ударений.
> 
> В данном случае словарь нам говорит, что при склонении не будет неверным оставлять ударным корневое _у_ во всех значениях слова, но в зависимости от значения можно и выносить ударение за основу (делать ударным окончание). _Уголья_ я, пожалуй, слышал только в выражении _Глаза горят как уголья_ (это не значит, что _Глаза горят как у́гли_ не говорят).



Тогда, наверное, мне лучше бы не говорить _уголья_.


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## Maroseika

Из "Словаря трудностей произношения и ударения в современном русском языке" (Горбачевич):

Уголь и (устаревшее) угль, род. ýгля, ýглей и допустимо угля́, угле́й.
В знач. «угольное месторождение»: у́гли и угли́.
В знач. «остаток пережженного дерева»: ýгли (род. ýглей) и уголья (род. ýгольев).
В устойчивом выражении: как на угольях и допустимо на угля́х (быть, сидеть, находиться и т. п.).


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## Awwal12

Assiduous student said:


> Hi, can I ask about one more thing today?
> 
> The dictionaries give 3 declension patterns for уголь. Russian is so rich, it not only has 6 cases, but also 3 declension patterns, ha ha!
> 
> For a foreigner, it might be best to stick to the most common form. Is the genitive of уголь preferably улгЯ or Угля? And is there any reason to choose between Угли, углИ and Уголья in the plural? Thank you.


From the point of everyday Moscow speech I'd recommend gen.sg. угля́ and nom.pl. у́гли. Уго́лья is also quite common, but note that it hardly can be used in the meaning "kinds of coal" or "coal deposits" ("у́гли" can).


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## Assiduous student

Thank you all.


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## MIDAV

This is what I would say, for all the different cases:

Уголь   углИ
углЯ углЕй
углЮ углЯм
углЕ углЯх
углЁм   углЯми

That is I would put the stress on the second syllable in each case except for nominative singular.

I have no idea what situations require the use of _уголья_, but I would never use that word.

Also, as a native speaker, I think I'm entitled to not give a damn about what dictionaries recommend.


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## Awwal12

For one thing, I've never actually heard угли́ in my life (although, I must admit, the word isn't very frequent in the usual city life these days).


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## Assiduous student

MIDAV said:


> Also, as a native speaker, I think I'm entitled to not give a damn about what dictionaries recommend.



Well, I am the one person here who will agree with you 110% on that. For a learner, it is confusing that so many words have variant pronunciations. I mean, it is easy to just teach one thing and then recognise variants. Thank you for your help.


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## Assiduous student

Awwal12 said:


> For one thing, I've never actually heard угли́ in my life (although, I must admit, the word isn't very frequent in the usual city life these days).



Awwal12, I admit the plural isn't always needed. In English, you can say "I would walk over hot coals for her" = she's so beautiful I would do anything for her. Would you accept: я бы рад пройти горящие угли за нее?


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## MIDAV

Awwal12 said:


> For one thing, I've never actually heard угли́ in my life (although, I must admit, the word isn't very frequent in the usual city life these days).



I have a dacha with a banya where we use a wood stove. So sometimes I have to deal with actual _угли_. Hope that makes me an authority


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## Assiduous student

MIDAV said:


> I have a dacha with a banya where we use a wood stove. So sometimes I have to deal with actual _угли_. Hope that makes me an authority



Sounds great fun. But you can avoid the stress on угли but calling them угольки.... Of course that sidesteps my original question, but it just ocurred to me.


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## MIDAV

Assiduous student said:


> Sounds great fun. But you can avoid the stress on угли but calling them угольки.... Of course that sidesteps my original question, but it just ocurred to me.


Great insight again, you sure deserve that name of yours!
Actually, that was my first idea - to suggest _угольки _as a (slightly) simpler version. But then again I was afraid to "sidestep the original question".
Also, in some situations you can't really substitute угольки for угли - as with that girl for example. She wouldn't appreciate it ))


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## Maroseika

Assiduous student said:


> Would you accept: я бы рад пройти горящие угли за нее?


Готов пройти по горящим у́глям.


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## Assiduous student

Thank you Maroseika for a great translation.


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## Awwal12

Assiduous student said:


> Awwal12, I admit the plural isn't always needed. In English, you can say "I would walk over hot coals for her" = she's so beautiful I would do anything for her. Would you accept: я бы рад пройти горящие угли за нее?


In English it's an idiomatic phrase. However, I cannot quickly recall any Russian phraseologisms which would incorporate у́гли/угли́/уго́лья. Maroseika's variant is merely a translation; it will be understood and may be used, of course, but it isn't any kind of set phrase.


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## Assiduous student

Awwal12 said:


> In English it's an idiomatic phrase. However, I cannot quickly recall any Russian phraseologisms which would incorporate у́гли/угли́/уго́лья. Maroseika's variant is merely a translation; it will be understood and may be used, of course, but it isn't any kind of set phrase.



OK, understood. But the variant on Wikipedia is not уго́лья. It is у́голья, with initial stress. I don't know how to put accent marks on Cyrillic characters.


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## Maroseika

MIDAV said:


> I don't know how to put accent marks on Cyrillic characters.


Just click "capital omega" in the menu above and select the stressed letter.


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## Assiduous student

Thank you - so in fact very easy.


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## Awwal12

Assiduous student said:


> OK, understood. But the variant on Wikipedia is not уго́лья. It is у́голья, with initial stress. I don't know how to put accent marks on Cyrillic characters.


Curious. Zaliznyak mentions "у́голья" indeed, as well as my edition of Ozhegov. Must be an idiolectal levelling (since the stress pattern in "у́голья" is actually abnormal; cf. "коло́сья", "поло́зья" etc.), but I am certainly not alone here.


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## Awwal12

P.S.: Even more curious: "Русское словесное ударение" (_М.: ЭНАС. М.В. Зарва. 2001_ ) has stressed "о́" in "уголья" in all indirect cases (у́голья, уго́льев, уго́льям etc.), conflicting with Zaliznyak and Ozhegov. It also brings up the idiom "сиде́ть как на уго́льях" (I must note that "...как на иго́лках" is more common).


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## Assiduous student

Awwal12 said:


> P.S.: Even more curious: "Русское словесное ударение" (_М.: ЭНАС. М.В. Зарва. 2001_ ) has stressed "о́" in "уголья" in all indirect cases (у́голья, уго́льев, уго́льям etc.), conflicting with Zaliznyak and Ozhegov. It also brings up the idiom "сиде́ть как на уго́льях" (I must note that "...как на иго́лках" is more common).



Maybe the stress pattern of иголках has influenced the stress pattern of угольях  in that phrase?


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## Okkervil

MIDAV said:


> I have no idea what situations require the use of _уголья_, but I would never use that word.


 Помнится, в известном к/ф "Обыкновенное чудо" охотник говорит, что принцесса, мол, сидит и смотрит на _*уго́лья*_.
И там это слово определенно усиливает общий комический эффект (хотя само по себе и не смешное).


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## MIDAV

Awwal12 said:


> For one thing, I've never actually heard угли́ in my life (although, I must admit, the word isn't very frequent in the usual city life these days).


Since I'd hate to be the only one speaking like that, I checked a bunch of YouTube videos – a total of probably 7-8. The most popular subject was actually _угли для кальяна_. I checked that and _угли для шашлыка_ too.

In most of the videos, the bloggers used the same stress pattern as described above (stress on the second syllable in all cases except nominative singular). Two of the shashlyk bloggers actually said у́гли in nominative plural but that was the only variation (otherwise they used the same pattern as above).


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## Awwal12

MIDAV said:


> Two of the shashlyk bloggers actually said у́гли in nominative plural but that was the only variation (otherwise they used the same pattern as above).


Actually, that's exactly the stress pattern I'd use myself (у́гли, угле́й, угля́м, у́гли, угля́ми, об угля́х/?об у́глях).


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