# 你骑车（骑得）跟他一样快吗？



## alexonline

Hi,there!

你骑车（骑得）跟他一样快吗？
这个男同志写字（写得）没有那个女同志好看

Is it OK to omit the red part of the sentences?


Thanks a lot.


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## retrogradedwithwind

It's OK


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## reer

alexonline said:


> 你骑车（骑得）跟他一样快吗？
> 这个男同志写字（写得）没有那个女同志好看
> Is it OK to omit the red part of the sentences?


I don't think it OK.

你骑车跟他一样快吗？
这个男同志写字没有那个女同志好看。
These two sentences do not sound  very proper.  When you say 你骑车快, it is helpful to keep in mind that there *wrongly omitted* 骑得 before the adv. of 快 .  写字写得好 is along the same line.

你/他 骑车骑得 快 = 你/他 车骑得 快 = {S+V+adv.} = You/he ride(s) (a bicycle) quickly
这个男/女同志 写字写得 好 = 这个男/女同志 字写得 好 = {S+V+adv.} = This gentleman/lady writes well in longhand.

To make a positive/negative comparison on equal level between two counterparts which are both in the construction of "subject + verb + adv.", the usual allocations are:

A do sth. as adv. as B :  A +verb+得+{跟/象/和+B+一样}+adv.
1. 你骑车骑得{跟/象/和+他+一样}快吗？(Proper)
2. 你车骑得{跟/象/和+他+一样}快吗？(Proper and brief.)​
A do sth. not as adv. as B: A+verb+得+{没有/不如}+B+adv. 
1. 这个男同志 写字写得 {没有/不如}那个女同志 好。(Proper)
2. 这个男同志 字写得 {没有/不如}那个女同志 好。(Proper and brief. )​
I wouldn't encourage you to use 好看 as an adverb in these sentences, because it does not sound as natural as 好.  Wordy.


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## fyl

To me it is perfectly correct to omit 起得/写得. And 好看 is exactly the word I would use.


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## brofeelgood

They're quite understandable to me too.

1) A写字(写得)比B好看 - the focus is on the manner of writing, i.e. A writes better than B.
2) A写的字比B写的好看 - the focus is on the result, i.e. The characters written by A are better than those written by B.
3) A的字写得比B(的)好看 - same as (2).


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## reer

fyl said:


> To me it is perfectly correct to omit 起得/写得.


你 骑车骑得 跟他一样快 吗?（Do/did you ride a bicycle as quickly as he does?）
This sentence is unarguably proper and clear if you don't mind the tense which needs more context.  You can decide right away that 快 is used as an adverb.
你骑得快 →  你 骑得  跟他一样快 → 你 骑车骑得 跟他一样快 (you ride a bicycle instead of a horse)

你骑车跟他一样快吗？
This sentence is *dubious* when you try to nail down the grammatical role of 快. 
快 could be either an adverb as in the sentence analysed above or an adjective as in 你在骑车方面跟他一样快吗？（When it comes to riding a bicycle, are you as quick as he is?）
你快 → 你 跟他一样 快 → 你 在骑车方面 跟他一样 快
Mind you, 你在骑车方面跟他一样快吗？sounds awkward.

So, it is *not perfectly correct* to omit 骑得/写得.  


fyl said:


> And 好看 is exactly the word I would use.


As far as the questioned sentence is concerned, 好 is enough.  好看 will make the whole sentence sound unnecessarily wordy.  It is used in most cases as an adjective, rarely as an adverb.


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## fyl

reer said:


> So, it is *not perfectly correct* to omit 骑得/写得.


Sorry but I have to say this is probably just what happens to you. (In fact I even suspected that you might have been affected by mistaken grammar analysis since it's hard to believe one has problems with such a sentence. A native speaker should first tell whether a sentence is right, then try to analyze it. If there are troubles with the grammar analysis, the "grammar rules" are wrong, not native speakers.)

To me and literally every native speaker I have seen in life, this IS perfect natural, and 好看 is a very common word to modify 字. You may google or baidu 写字好看 and the search engine will tell you have frequently it is used.


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## reer

brofeelgood said:


> They're quite understandable to me too.


"understandable" is not "proper".  I can manage to write understandable text in English, but I am fully aware my English writing is far from being proper.


brofeelgood said:


> 1) A写字(写得)比B好看 - the focus is on the manner of writing, i.e. A writes better than B.
> 2) A写的字比B写的好看 - the focus is on the result, i.e. The characters written by A are better than those written by B.
> 3) A的字写得比B(的)好看 - same as (2).


1.  A写字比B好看≈A写起字来比B好看 (A has a nicer bearing when he/she writes by hand than B.)
The focus is on the manner of writing action not handwriting.  好看=nice=adj.​
2.  A写字写得比B好 (A writes by hand better than B. )
The focus is on the result of writing performance.  好=well=adv.​
3.  A写的字比B写的好看 (A's handwriting is better/more pleasing than B's)
The focus is on the handwriting proper.  好看=good/pleasing=adj.​
4.  A的字写得比B的好看 (similar to 3. except it is in passive form)
Better keep 的 after B, to keep the structure balanced and rhythm more pleasing to ears.​


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## theresagqp1986

It is perfectly acceptable to omit them. Language changes and varies from context to context, so don't be bothered by linguistic analyses which more often than not ignore what is happening in the real world.


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## alexonline

fyl said:


> To me it is perfectly correct to omit 起得/写得.



fyl, so, the thing I can take out of this thread is that,of course,the full and proper way to say 'He rides the bicycle fast' is:
他骑车骑得快,but in real life the trend is to omit 骑得.So 他骑车很快，我写字好看，他看书很多 are totally correct,right?


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## Skatinginbc

I prefer 你字没他写得好 over 你写字没他好看.
那个女同志真好看! 这个男同志字写得還不錯! 看这个男同志写字有啥好的? 還不如看那女同志, 如花似玉, 多好看.  「这个男同志写字没有那个女同志好看.」 
我飯没你吃得快, 我菜没你煮得好, 我話没你說得明白...


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## fyl

alexonline said:


> fyl, so, the thing I can take out of this thread is that,of course,the full and proper way to say 'He rides the bicycle fast' is:
> 他骑车骑得快,but in real life the trend is to omit 骑得.So 他骑车很快，我写字好看，他看书很多 are totally correct,right?


They are totally correct to me. Honestly (not because of what happened) I don't see why 他骑车骑得快 is a full proper version of this. The two ways are both full and proper.


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## Skatinginbc

I agree with fyl.  I think they are equally correct in speech.


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## theresagqp1986

alexonline said:


> fyl, so, the thing I can take out of this thread is that,of course,the full and proper way to say 'He rides the bicycle fast' is:
> 他骑车骑得快,but in real life the trend is to omit 骑得.So 他骑车很快，我写字好看，他看书很多 are totally correct,right?


Yes, it is acceptable to say 我写字好看 and 他看书很多. But note that for the two expressions, 好看 and 很多 modify the nouns 字 and 书 respectively; whereas, 很快 in 他骑车很快 modifies the verb 骑


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## alexonline

theresagqp1986 said:


> ...note that for the two expressions (我写字好看 and 他看书很多), 好看 and 很多 modify the nouns 字 and 书 respectively; whereas, 很快 in 他骑车很快 modifies the verb 骑



Thanks ever so much,guys,for your help,I really appreciate it.The only thing that confuses me is how 好看 and 很多 can modify the nouns 字 and 书? To me in all the three sentences 好看,很多 and 很快 modify the verbs 写,看 and 骑.
- 他写字怎么样？ - 'How does he write characters?'
- 他写字好看 - 'He writes characters in a nice way'

-  他看书多吗？ - 'Does he read a lot of books?'
- 他看书很多 - 'He reads a lot of books'

- 他骑车快吗？ - 'Does he ride the bicycle fast?'
- 他骑车很快 - 'He rides the bicycle fast'

On the other hand, I can make the words 好看 and 很多 modify the nouns:
他写的字好看 - 'The characters that he writes look good'
他看的书很多 - 'He has read a lot of books'

Please,correct me if I`m wrong.


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## theresagqp1986

^Good question! Let me try to answer it.

First, 他写字怎么样？ is ambiguous. There are three possible interpretations of this question. (1) The question is aimed at 写, an action verb. So you may be asking how fast he writes characters.  A proper answer can be 他写字很快. (2) The question is aimed at 字. So you may be asking how beautiful his characters are. A proper answer can be 他写字好看. (3) The question is aimed at 写字. In this case, you are asking the way he writes characters. A proper answer can be 他写字很吃力 'He writes characters with difficulty.' in a context where the guy is handicapped.

So your translation of 他写字好看 as 'He writes characters in a nice way' suggests that you interpreted the question as the third one, that is, the way he writes characters. But the right interpretation should be the second one. 好看 is more used as an adjective which modifies nouns. I'll translate it as 'The characters he writes are beautiful.'

Read this dialogue I just made up concerning the ambiguity of this question:

A: 他写字怎么样？
B：他写字很快.
A: 我是问他写字好看吗(I meant if the characters he writes are beautiful.)
B: 好看

Second,
-他看书多吗？
-他看书很多
I'm puzzled now. Your translation suggests that you understand that 很多 modifies 书. Why did you say you think 很多 modifies 看?

Third,
-他骑车快吗?
-他骑车很快.
I need to point out that it is not so right to translate 骑车 as 'ride the bicycle'. I'm not sure of the right expression in English since I'm not a native speaker. It can be translated as ’ride bicycle' like 'ride horse' if this is grammatical in English, or an acceptable one is 'ride a bicycle'. And here, 很快 modifies the verb 骑.


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## alexonline

reer said:


> 1.  A写字比B好看≈A写起字来比B好看 (A has a nicer bearing when he/she writes by hand than B.)  The focus is on the manner of writing action not handwriting.  好看=nice=adj.



reer,the examples are absolutely clear and easy to understand,except in the first one you say that in A写字比B好看  
好看=nice=adj. It confuses me, as an adjective normally modifies a noun,and in our case the noun is 'bearing',which is not even in the sentence,so I have no idea what to link the 好看 to?

Thanks again.


theresagqp1986 said:


> … 他写字怎么样？... is ambiguous...



Well,theresagqp1986,I have three theories on this. 

Theory 1:

I gues it`s ambiguous because 怎么样 can be either an adverb or an adjective: 1. If it`s an adverb,we know that it modifies the verb (‘How’) -他写字怎么样？他写字很快(= 他字写得很快)  2. If it`s an adjective,it`s obvious that it modifies the noun (‘What kind’) - 他写字好看- literally ‘He writes characters of what kind?’ – ‘He writes characters beautiful -> He writes beautiful characters’
(= 他写的字好看).The difference seems to be like with verbs ‘look’,’smell’,’feel’,etc in English. ‘She looked thoughtfully (at him)’ – adverb, and on the other hand ’ She looked thoughtful’ – adjective.

Theory 2:

2. Maybe for you,native guys, 他写字好看is just a shortned他写的字好看?

Theory 3:

Seems like with ‘verb + 得’,like in 他车骑得很快,it`s a pure assessment ‘How quickly…?’ – ‘…quickly’,whereas in ones without ‘verb + 得’ there may be a (slightly) different shade of meaning,like reer noted ‘他骑车很快≈他在骑车方面很快 ‘When it comes to riding a bicycle, he`s quick’ – not just ‘He rides a bike quickly’. Or A写字比B好看≈A写起字来比B好看 (A has a nicer bearing when he/she writes by hand than B.)  The focus is on the manner of writing action not handwriting.  好看=nice=adj. (reer)


And,of course, in any languages if you want to ask a question only once without any additional specifying questions and get the right answer straight away,you have to ask specific questions.In our case他写字写得怎么样？ and 他写的字怎么样？instead of an ambiguous他写字怎么样？But thanks to the discussion I`m aware now that sentences without ‘verb + 得’ are as proper as with them,and are widely used in real life.

Thank you so much.


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## Skatinginbc

好看 in 他写得很好看 modifies the implied product (写的字), rather than the process (写字).  男同志写字有啥好看的? 除非你暗戀上他.  Likewise, 好听 in 他唱得很好听 modifies the implied product 歌曲, and 好吃 in 他煮得很好吃 modifies the implied product 饭菜.

他写字好看: (1) = 他写的字好看, (2) = 我爱看他写字


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## alexonline

Skatinginbc said:


> For example, 好看 in 他写得很好看 modifies the implied product (写的字), rather than the action (写字).



Thanks,Skatinginbc. You mean 他写得很好看 means  not 'He writes beautifully',but 'He writes beautiful (characters)'?
I guess it`s the same as 他写的很好看,right?


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## Skatinginbc

I mean:
He writes in such a fashion that the characters look so beautiful.他写得很好看 ==> "He writes beautifully" if we have to translate it into English.
He sings in such a fashion that the song sounds really good. 他唱得很好听 ==> "He sings well" if we have to translate it into English.
He cooks in such a way that the food taste really delicious. 他煮得很好吃 ==> "He cooks well" if we have to translate it into English.

To me, 得 signals the result.
He writes in such a fashion that the characters look so beautiful.他写得很好看
He writes 他写 + 得 (and the result is) + so beautiful to look at 很好看
Obviously, I see 好看 as an adjective, not an adverb.  And it modifies the implied product, not the action.


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## alexonline

Skatinginbc said:


> I mean:
> He writes in such a fashion that the characters look so beautiful.他写得很好看 ==> "He writes beautifully" if we have to translate it into English.
> He sings in such a fashion that the song sounds really good. 他唱得很好听 ==> "He sings well" if we have to translate it into English.
> He cooks in such a way that the food taste really delicious. 他煮得很好吃 ==> "He cooks well" if we have to translate it into English.



多谢,Skatinginbc,我知道了. How would you comment on reer`s remark?

"A写字比B好看≈A写起字来比B好看 (A has a nicer bearing when he/she writes by hand than B.) The focus is on the manner of writing action not handwriting. 好看=nice=adj." In our case A写字很好看


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## Skatinginbc

He writes in such a fashion that the characters look so beautiful.==> Although 好看 "nice to look at" modifies the implied product 字, the focus is on "such a fashion" (the manner of writing), and I think that's what reer meant.

他写字(写得)很好看 "Speaking of his handwriting (他写字), he writes in such a fashion that the characters look so beautiful" vs. 他写的字很好看 "The characters he wrote are nice to look at" ==> The former emphasizes his skill (or manner of writing), whereas the latter focuses on the characters he wrote (they may be either intrinsically beautiful or beautiful because of his handwriting).


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