# Les promeneurs



## pariselle

Bonjour - 

Je ne suis pas tout à fait convaincue des traductions du mot:
 "promeneurs" dans le forum -  "strollers" walkers" sounds strange?

Voici le context:

"Cette  station balnéaire possède, une vaste pinède ombragée appréciée des *promeneurs* et des campeurs. "
....... well-like by the walkers? / the strollers? hum..

Could you confirm it is good English -  ANd which one should I use?
Merci!


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## timpeac

"Walkers" is probably ok - but you are right to be suspicious. "Walkers" are more serious walkers than people just "walking". You could not say, for example, there were some walkers in the street. "Walkers" have put on sturdy shoes and probably a cagoule - they might even have a pen-knife and a map in their pocket. Without context I would be wary of using it - but in the context you give, contrasting with "campers", it seems fine. To be safe, you could say "people out for a walk" or something like that.


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## pariselle

Thank you Timpec - very good point about the walkers - I tis almost as a *hiker *- boots and and.

But would there be an equivalent *word ? a noun? ( not:"people out for a walk")
*Do I need to go back to *walkers...
Merci in advance

*


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## timpeac

I think in the context "walkers" is ok. As you say, they are almost hikers (but not quite) and because you talk of "campers" in the same context I think it's ok. With no context at all "walkers" would be too ambiguous. "...valued by walkers and campers alike" is fine.


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## Nicomon

I noticed that pariselle also suggested "_strollers_", which I kind of prefer to "_walkers_"... but then timpeac, who's a native, didn't mention it. 

Why wouldn't that work?


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## Language Hound

Personally, I would find it more natural to turn the sentence around a bit and say that
it has a...which is great for walking/hiking and camping
or it has a...which is a favorite among hikers and campers.

_Hikers_ don't have to be hard-core mountain hikers; they can
just be hiking leisurely.
_
Strollers_ sounds somewhat old-fashioned--for lack of a better word!


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## timpeac

"Strollers" just doesn't sound idiomatic to me here. It sounds not serious enough to me in the same way that "hikers" sounds too serious. As a tourist to the area if I read "hikers and campers" I might presume that you have to be well prepared for a walk in these pine forests.


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## catay

another idea:
  “...which is ideal for aficionados of walking or camping”


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## Nicomon

Thank you Language Hound and timpeac.

I had no idea that "_strollers_" was old-fashioned, and to me « _promeneurs_ » as in « _les promeneurs du dimanche _» doesn't sound serious. 
This is what we see in WR dictionary : 





> *stroller* n, (sb walking for pleasure), *promeneur*, promeneuse



If "strollers" doesn't work, then I'd turn it - as suggested - into _walking and camping_. I like catay's idea. 

I just don't like the sound of "_walkers_" (it makes me think of a dog walker ). But that's just my non native opinion.


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## pariselle

Thank you for all these suggestions   !
Because of the kind of translating I am doing - I have to stick to a word translation -So I cannot turn the sentence around - which will be easier in a sense - 
Like Nicomon, I have a resistance to "Walkers"... HOWEVER, I will follow Timpeac' suggestion and go for it - I should not rely on my French ear to make a decision -  Merci for this discussion -


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## timpeac

Ramblers could work too - ramblers are less serious than hikers.


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## Martyn94

Ramblers are less serious than hikers, but fairly serious: they are following a pre-conceived route, even if it is usually taking them back to where they started. "Strollers" is not so much old-fashioned as too casual. timpeac had it dead right first time with "walkers".


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## pariselle

YES! I saw that in WR: "ramblers" it is translated as "promeneurs" 
It gives a sense of a lingering walk - 
Ok - "ramblers" I like that one!
Thank you , Timpeac, for the research and the insistence to find the right word!


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## pariselle

OH... I am getting confused now! I guess I have the wrong idea about "ramblers" .....
Back to: "walkers" then ...

Thank you Martyn94 for the precision - 
Done : promeneurs = walkers -
Simple -
Thank you!


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## Language Hound

It depends who the translation is for.
To my American ear, _ramblers_ sounds even more old-fashioned than _strollers_!
Nowadays, in the U.S., you would probably just hear a singer use the word _rambler_.
I should specify that even though strollers sounds somewhat old-fashioned as a term for people walking
(with the exception of those participating in organized "Strolls" during the holidays or during fund-raisers),
the verb form does not sound at all old-fashioned and is frequently used, e.g.,
_They strolled through the park.
The strolled around the city_.
Or, even using the noun _stroll_:
_They went out for a leisurely stroll.

_To me, *changing the nouns* *promeneurs and campeurs* *to* *walking and camping*
would result in the sentence sounding more idiomatic, at least in AE.

I am very curious about what you mean, Pariselle, by
_"Because of the kind of translating I am doing - I have to stick to a word translation
-So I cannot turn the sentence around - which will be easier in a sense -"

_Do you mean a word-for-word translation?
Turning a sentence around is often necessary to make the resulting translation
sound like something a native would say or write, especially when working with
languages that are not closely related.


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## Martyn94

pariselle said:


> OH... I am getting confused now! I guess I have the wrong idea about "ramblers" .....
> Back to: "walkers" then ...
> 
> Thank you Martyn94 for the precision -
> Done : promeneurs = walkers -
> Simple -
> Thank you!


It is totally understandable that "ramblers" gives you the impression of a lingering walk (that is what a "ramble" usually means) but it does not imply that in BE practice. The Ramblers (formerly the Ramblers Association) are an organised group of keen walkers who have been, and are, militant to open up "rights of way" over private land. "ramblers" with a small "r" takes its colour from that.


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## timpeac

Martyn94 said:


> It is totally understandable that "ramblers" gives you the impression of a lingering walk (that is what a "ramble" usually means) but it does not imply that in BE practice. The Ramblers (formerly the Ramblers Association) are an organised group of keen walkers who have been, and are, militant to open up "rights of way" over private land. "ramblers" with a small "r" takes its colour from that.



To be honest - not to my mind, Martyn. I wouldn't find it strange for someone to say they were going for a ramble without it being such a serious affair. For me a ramble is a stage down from a hike. A family could say "we're going for a ramble in the woods this afternoon". I agree the Ramblers association does muddy things though - I'd say they were hikers!. As you say, however, I don't think that there is anything wrong with "walkers" given the context. "Strollers" (for BE at least) definitely not, unless you're on the beach or looking round the shops.


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## Martyn94

I evidently did not make myself clear, though I tried to be explicit. "I am going for a ramble in the woods" means "I am going for a walk as an end in itself, with no particular pre-conceived idea where I am going to go". But pariselle is not looking for a name for the recreation, they are looking for a name for the people doing it. You seem to agree that "rambler"carries at least a mixed message in BE, and Language Hound has told us it is totally dud in AE. […]


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## lily56

Even if this is meant to be a literal translation, you should still turn the sentence around. It is not a natural construction in English. I suggest:


"This coastal resort town has a large shaded pine grove that is the perfect place for a stroll and loved by campers."


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## pariselle

[But pariselle is not looking for a name for the recreation, they are looking for a name for the people doing it.]
Yes, Martyn94 - I think will leave the "ramblers" - and keep " walkers".  
The word "promeneurs", here, is afterall, taken in a general sense
 And it will create less confusion / questions in Americain readers  (Language hound) - 

Language Hound - It is a word list of vocabulary to translate not sentences/ text - (sometimes more challenging )
Merci à tous!

***********************
I meant Martyn94 that you are right -[_But pariselle is not looking for a name for the recreation, they are looking for a name for the people doing it.]_
***********************
Lily56, please read post #20
Thank you for joining.
and thank you.


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## lily56

walkers sounds good then


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## pariselle

Thank you for your time and confirmation!


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## timpeac

Martyn94 said:


> I evidently did not make myself clear, though I tried to be explicit. "I am going for a ramble in the woods" means "I am going for a walk as an end in itself, with no particular pre-conceived idea where I am going to go". But pariselle is not looking for a name for the recreation, they are looking for a name for the people doing it. You seem to agree that "rambler"carries at least a mixed message in BE, and Language Hound has told us it is totally dud in AE. You could gracefully be a bit less grudging about "walkers": it was after all your own idea.


There is no need to take offence - having reread my message I'm not sure where you find it, but my phrase "I don't think there is anything wrong with "walkers" given the context" is exactly what I think and not meant to be grudging, and is exactly what I have said all along. My very first comment on the subject was

"Walkers" is probably ok - but you are right to be suspicious...Without context I would be wary of using it"

Just because someone disagrees (and then only partly) with you, it does not mean they have launched some sort of ad hominem attack.


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## pariselle

Timpec, thank you for your elegance - I agree - No need to launch at each other...
Let us stay polite and poised - as the rules and good discussion require.


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## Language Hound

pariselle said:


> Language Hound - It is a word list of vocabulary to translate not sentences/ text - (sometimes more challenging )


Good to know.  It would have been very helpful to have included this information in your original post.
Obviously if you're just producing a glossary so students can understand the sentence you provided,
then I think _walkers_ is just fine.
Leave it to the students to figure out how to translate the sentence so it sounds idiomatic in English.


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## pariselle

Exactly - Thank you, Language Hound
And you are right, I will from now on,  when it is the case, specify that the format of a list. 
It will save time - because it is a different process-

Sorry about that -


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## frenchifried

I don't see anything wrong with stroller. You can stroll around a town or through a wood without being a serious walker, backpacker, hiker, rambler and so forth. You can go for a little stroll after dinner along the seafront for example.


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## Martyn94

Nothing much wrong: just that "walker" is better, and pariselle has been happy with it for a few hours now, and has probably sent the job off. We do all want to her to sleep at nights.


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## pariselle

True Martyn94- Job sent - Over now -


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## Nicomon

frenchifried said:


> I don't see anything wrong with stroller. You can stroll around a town or through a wood without being a serious walker, backpacker, hiker, rambler and so forth. You can go for a little stroll after dinner along the seafront for example.


 It won't come as a surprise to anyone when I write that... I agree entirely. 



Martyn94 said:


> Nothing much wrong: just that "walker" is better.


 May be, may be not. One thing for sure is that if I had to translate _walkers_ back to French, I'd be more likely to write _marcheurs_ than _promeneurs._ 

Dans mon vocabulaire, le _promeneur_ fait une promenade/marche passive, et le _marcheur _une marche de santé/exercice. 
Or, c'est à ce dernier (à part "_dog walker_" comme je l'ai écrit plus haut), que "_walker_" me fait penser. 

Et je dirais que les _hikers/ramblers _font des randonnées. 

pariselle a posé son choix... mais ne me semblait pas raffoler de _walker _avant que vous ne la convainquiez. 

Je continue de préférer _stroller_ pour traduire _promeneur_ hors contexte. Ou alors qu'on précise :_ leisure walker. 

_Cela dit mon opinion n'engage que moi; tout le monde n'est pas obligé de la partager.


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## Language Hound

frenchifried said:


> I don't see anything wrong with stroller. You can stroll around a town or through a wood without being a serious walker, backpacker, hiker, rambler and so forth. You can go for a little stroll after dinner along the seafront for example.


In BE, there probably is nothing wrong with "stroller."
In AE, however, with the exceptions I mentioned in post #15, a stroller is something you push a baby around in _(une poussette)_.
I believe you call it a _"_pram_"_ in BE.


Nicomon said:


> ...One thing for sure is that if I had to translate _walkers_ back to French, I'd be more likely to write _marcheurs_ than _promeneurs. _


 I agree.  Excellent point.  I think that in AE we tend to somewhat blur this distinction.
Out of curiosity, I would like to know how you would translate "to take a walk."


> Dans mon vocabulaire, le _promeneur_ fait une promenade/marche passive, et le _marcheur _une marche de santé/exercice.
> Or, c'est à ce dernier (à part "_dog walker_" comme je l'ai écrit plus haut), que "_walker_" me fait penser.


Maybe because of the blur I mentioned above, I don't automatically think of someone walking for health/exercise unless it's a "power walker."
Some people just enjoy walking (in a passive way).

Finally, I suppose if I just had to give an out-of-context translation for _promeneurs _and_ marcheurs,
_I would probably say *people out for a stroll *and* people out for a walk.

*


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## timpeac

Language Hound said:


> In BE, there probably is nothing wrong with "stroller.*"
> *


I share a lot of your concerns. I can certainly say I find "strollers" unidiomatic in this context. I think that "strollers" is too passive. I would find "strollers in the park" or "strollers along the pier" ok, if a little dated, but "strollers in a vast pine-wood" - odd.


Language Hound said:


> Finally, I suppose if I just had to give an out-of-context translation for _promeneurs _and_ marcheurs,
> _I would probably say *people out for a stroll *and* people out for a walk.
> *


I would too, and I think this adds to the triple whammy of "strollers" not being quite right in this context. I think "strollers" suffers from being a little dated, not quite active enough, and the fact that we might prefer a noun clause instead.

Nicomon - I take your point that if you were translating back the other way then you would translate a "walker" as a "marcheur". I still think "walker" is probably the best translation here (I hope that comes across as enthusiastic enough) but your comment suggests to me that the French-English terms don't quite match up on a continuum of how "serious" the walking is. Reversing you point - I would, in general, have translated "strollers" as "flâneurs" (with the image of people wandering around a park or along the sea-front rather than a "vast pine-wood") - would "flâneurs" be ok in the original sentence instead of "promeneurs"?


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## Nicomon

This is what a « promeneur » is, as copied from Petit Robert : 





> Personne qui se promène (en particulier à pied, dans les rues et les promenades publiques). ➙ flâneur, passant. Promeneurs attardés. « la population pacifique des promeneurs du dimanche, rassemblée par groupes, en familles » (Michelet). « Rêveries du promeneur solitaire », de J.-J. Rousseau.



And no, I don't think that « flâneurs » would have been OK instead of « promeneurs » in the original sentence which was this : 





> Cette station balnéaire possède, une vaste pinède ombragée appréciée des *promeneurs* et des campeurs.


  I  undertand that they appreciate the shade of the pine trees.  It's hard to say how big of a "wood" we are talking about. 

To me « promeneur » is passive.


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## timpeac

Nicomon said:


> And no, I don't think that « flâneurs » would have been OK instead of « promeneurs » in the original sentence which was this :   I  undertand that they appreciate the shade of the pine trees.  It's hard to say how big of a "wood" we are talking about.



It sounds, then, like we have a continuum something like flâner---stroll---promener---walk---marcher  and the translation depends on how you feel about the boundaries of those. For me "stroll" is more like "flâner" than "promener", although judging from some of the comments above perhaps not all speakers feel that way.

By the way we do know the size of the wood - the original says "vaste".


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## Nicomon

True, the initial sentence says « vaste ». But then I can say « vaste » about just anything that's slightly larger than the neighbour's. 

I wrote "wood" between brackets, because to me « pinède » = « plantation de pins ».  
Not necessarily « bois/forêt de pins ».  But that would be the subject of another tread.

In a nutshell, and the way I see it:

_Promeneurs = leisure walkers
Marcheurs = power walkers

_Now without the adjective, which of the two would you normally associate to "walker"? 

On peut dire en français « _bon marcheur _», mais pas « _bon promeneur _». On peut marcher par plaisir, ou dans un but précis.   

Il y a (du moins pour moi) un côté contemplatif/passif dans « _promeneur_ », qu'il n'y a pas dans «_ marcheur _»... qui fait que j'hésite à le traduire par "_walker_" sans au moins y ajouter un adjectif.


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## timpeac

I don't think we're going to get to an agreement here. I don't like "strollers" because it's too like "flâneurs" and you don't like "walkers" because it's too much like "marcheurs".

Ultimately the problem lies (other than the blurred lines between the translations of these terms), I think, in that there is the extra restriction in that the OP wants a noun agent. In fact, the most natural way to translate this in English as mentioned by a couple of people, is by a phrase such as "people on a walk" or "people out for a walk". The noun agents all seem to have some fairly specific connotations.


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## Martyn94

If that is what it comes down to, choose "people out for a walk". People_ on _a walk are walking from Dunkerque to Menton, and happen to be passing through.


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## Nicomon

Or "_people out for a stroll_". 

I can't help it. The leisure (as opposed to sport) part of _promeneurs_ seems to be missing in "_walkers_" to my francophone ears.

Here quoting timpeac's first post :





> "Walkers" is probably ok - but you are right to be suspicious...Without context I would be wary of using it"



I guess what I'm trying to say is that in my mind, _promeneur_ is closer to _flâneur _than _marcheur_. So I thought _leisure walker _might be a good compromise between _stroller_ and _walker _by itself. It apparently isn't the case. My mistake. 

Et si le « _promeneur _» en question faisait une promenade à vélo, plutôt qu'à pied? On dirait quoi en anglais? 

Bon, OK, je sors.


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## Martyn94

Sorry for the diversion,  I misread  #36 as implying that "people out for a walk" was OK rather than not OK (not a noun agent).

As timpeac said, the divisions between relative levels of enthusiasm don't seem to slice up quite the same way in the two languages. And at the margins it reduces to a matter of impressions.

We have a vast pine forest (however big that is) appreciated by XXX and campers alike. I think there is a small force of attraction between campers (sportif, out-of-doors people) and whatever word we use for promeneurs: they should not sound silly together. To my ear, "campers and strollers" (or "strollers and campers") sounds bathetic: "campers and walkers" are well-matched, without making the walkers sound too hearty. And we know that strollers doesn't work in AE. I go for "walkers". I don't think anyone will think, even unconsciously that this is no good: I am just a stroller, not a walker. And if they do just want to stroll, no doubt the resort provides for that.


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## Nicomon

I promise that this will be my last post on this thread. 

I agree that for pariselle's opening sentence, "_walkers_" works better with "_campers_". 
But in the same line of thoughts (sports), in my opinion « _marcheurs / randonneurs _» would go better with «_ campeurs _» than _« promeneurs ». _

I'll just add this example (one of several of the kind with both words in the same sentence) that I found googling : 





> Le 30 septembre, environ 2000 personnes : coureurs, joggers, randonneurs, *marcheurs, et promeneurs* ont répondu à l'invitation des organisateurs de la Virade *...*


 If we were to translate « promeneurs » as "walkers" in this specific sentence... then we'd have to think of something else to translate « marcheurs ». 

_runners, joggers, hikers, *walkers *and *walkers *_? I don't think so. That was my point all along.

Incidentally, a "walker" can also be *something like this*. Same issue as "stroller", no?


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## pariselle

Nicomon, I am actually so thrilled that one word can lead to such discussion - WElcome to the nuances of language - both in French and English - and thank you to the forum to offer such a format that supports this - 

I think in the sentence above, "marcheurs" might inlcude a sense of purpose - (not used also, in French, I think, for the wandering activity) 
And yes, in " my" original sentence  - "les promeneurs" are people with no specific goal - time and space - even though choosing to walk - probably on organized, preapred paths offered by the town -


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## Martyn94

Nicomon's point was acknowledged by timpeac some time ago: "walkers" in English seems to straddle the distinction between "marcheurs" and "promeneurs" in French. But surely this is a pretty common experience: the fact that X is the right translation for Y in some particular instance doesn't mean that Y is generally the right translation for X. So a context which includes both "marcheurs et promeneurs" presents essentially the same problem as we have had here, but at a different boundary: I think I would choose "hikers and strollers" (missing out "walkers" altogether), for reasons it would be off-topic to go into.


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