# Nothing if not



## aliapoppy

How would this translate? I'm not coming up with anything that doesn't sound weird and way too literal, such as "Он никто, если не называть его...(кем/чем)" Is that even real Russian?

Заранее благодарю!


----------



## willem81

Is it synonymous to 'above all'?
He was nothing if was not discreet = He was discreet above all ?


----------



## Caballero_Andante

That looks like Russian at first sight However, if you supply some extensive examples of how you mean to use it, it would be really helpful


----------



## twinsen

As is most generally the case with these things, there are many ways to go about it. For one, you may consider using the pattern I'm about to suggest which, sadly enough, requires replacing an adjective with the corresponding noun. For example:

- He's nothing if not patient* [**patient (терпеливый) -> patience (терпение)]
- Уж в чем в чем, а в терпении ему не отказать
*
That's about it. The framing remains the same, what changes is the noun that describes the quality you want to put a stress upon


----------



## aliapoppy

Caballero_Andante said:


> That looks like Russian at first sight However, if you supply some extensive examples of how you mean to use it, it would be really helpful



Sorry about that. I was hoping for a direct phase to phrase translation, but left off the context. Oops!  In this instance, I'm writing in a term paper about a poet and his songs, as in "His songs are nothing if not passionately honest." I tried to keep it general because I look through the forum and often find _almost_ what I need, but slightly too specific. Hope this clears things up


----------



## learnerr

I still don't understand. They are honest, or they are not? Are the songs nothing deserving a second look, or their honesty (supposed or actual) makes them worth special attention? Really, the word "context" means more than just one sentence.


----------



## twinsen

Oh they are honest all right. Obviously what I proposed earlier has no place in a term paper) My adivce is that you improvise. Try rephrasing it in as many ways as possible. My humble suggestion would be:

"Его песни [славятся/обращают на себя внимание] своей неистовой честностью"

That might do it. Although I'm not exactly sure what you meant by "passionate honesty"


----------



## aliapoppy

learnerr said:


> I still don't understand. They are honest, or they are not? Are the songs nothing deserving a second look, or their honesty (supposed or actual) makes them worth special attention? Really, the word "context" means more than just one sentence.



They are honest. "Nothing if not..." is a way of stating the defining quality of something, or at least that's the way that I'm using it here. It's similar to above all, but the syntax is particular, which is really what I'm looking for. Russian doesn't use double negatives, so I understand if a direct translation doesn't exist. I've read through the forum rules on context. I understand. Just trying to get some help here. 

In English, the section would look like this:
Vysotsky's songs are nothing if not passionately honest. His unique style causes many to assume that his works are purely autobiographical. After all, who could sing with such feeling about something he/she had never experienced personally? However in this lies Vysotsky's greatest gift- the ability to understand his people, country, and time by writing about the experiences of the common masses through the voice of one.   

I really was just looking for a phase to work with the flow of the piece. If you have a better suggestion, please let me know. I write directly in Russian (as opposed to translating) for exactly this reason- the languages are so different, and direct translations are rare and often lacking in expected connotation. I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir here. Thanks again for all your help.


----------



## learnerr

twinsen said:
			
		

> That might do it.


Well, you certainly can translate stamps one by one, without context, but I nurture the hope that the topic starter meant to say something more than just citing a stamp...

PS: cross-posted...


----------



## learnerr

aliapoppy said:


> In English, the section would look like this:
> Vysotsky's songs are nothing if not passionately honest. His unique style causes many to assume that his works are purely autobiographical. After all, who could sing with such feeling about something he/she had never experienced personally? However in this lies Vysotsky's greatest gift- the ability to understand his people, country, and time by writing about the experiences of the common masses through the voice of one.


It seems that my hope was well-based. You meant that passionate honesty was the property that fit description of Vysotsky's songs better than anything else. As you say, it was their "defining quality".

Let me try: "Правильнее всего было бы сказать, что песни Высоцкого обладали напряжённой честностью; уникальные черты его песен привели многих к заблуждению, будто бы он описывал в них свою собственную жизнь. В самом деле, как ещё можно было бы [...]". In other words, I would recommend just to say plainly what you meant, without any syntactical games.  The real problem is to decide how to translate "passionately honest", I think; there is no such word like "passionately" in Russian, so you have to pick up something else...


----------



## twinsen

What do you know... It doesn't sound like a stamp at all... By the way, what does "stamp" mean anyway?


----------



## learnerr

twinsen said:


> By the way, what does "stamp" mean anyway?


Sorry, I meant the Russian word "штамп", of course, and by this I meant a phrase that is used for the sake of its existence, not in order to define something by something, or to provide a new thought. "Славятся" is such a word (it was not actually used to _inform _that the songs are now famous, was it?), and "неистовая честность" is also such a word (did you _really_ mean that it was hard to stop somebody determined to continue acting? if you did, how did you know that that was the case? but I think that you didn't mean that). Some Russian-English dictionary said to me that the expression "stock phrase" means what the Russian word does.


----------



## aliapoppy

To be completely honest, having stock phrases is a very useful tool when learning a language. What constitutes a 'stock phrase', really? What may be common speech to you is very useful for someone else. After all, words that a native Russian speaker may put together naturally are rarely the obvious answer to anyone learning РКИ. Things like "после того, как", "как ни...", хорошая погода вместо красивой погоды, и тд. Idioms are stock phrases as well, and everyone studies those. Nothing wrong with that. I'm sure we can all sympathize.  Anyway, not to get off topic, thanks again to everyone for your help


----------



## learnerr

Well, "после того, как" is not a «штамп» for me, it is rather an element of grammar (it's all neutral, it does not have any noise meaning that, as the reader supposes, is not actually implied by the writer). Apparently the dictionary was not exactly right. ;-) But I agree that this goes from the topic, I said this just to clarify my previous post.


----------



## willem81

I think 'nothing if not' is equivalent to the Russian construction 'не что иное, как'. But a certain rephrasing would be required, when translating into Russian. Passionately honest - there is no precise equivalent, let's put it like прямолинейная честность, for instance.

Vysotsky's songs are nothing if not passionately honest.

В песнях Высоцкого было не что иное, как прямолинейная честность.
or
Высоцкий пел не что иное, как прямолинейно-честные песни.


----------



## Maroseika

What's wrong with the dictionary explanation that "nothing if not" means *в высшей степени, крайне*? It seems to me matching quite well here.


----------



## willem81

exceedingly, audaciously, extremely, etc - that is "в высшей степени", "крайне"
nothing if not = не что иное, как


----------



## learnerr

Maroseika said:


> What's wrong with the dictionary explanation that "nothing if not" means *в высшей степени, крайне*? It seems to me matching quite well here.


It does not:


aliapoppy said:


> "Nothing if not..." is a way of stating the defining quality of something, or at least that's the way that I'm using it here.


By the way, the expression «не что иное, как» does not appear an exact fit, either. It does not mean that the quality is a defining one for the songs, it means that the proper name for the quality is what follows then. This expression is used to define the quality, not the songs.


----------



## willem81

The safest interpretation would be a straightforward one then. If it means a defining quality, then the whole sentence would be: Определяющей чертой песен Высоцкого является прямолинейная честность.


----------



## Caballero_Andante

Guys, I assume there's no way to find a precise equivalent that would keep all source syntax and vocabulary features "as is".
I would render the phrase in question as
Песни Высоцкого отличаются, прежде всего, потрясающей прямотой/честностью.
May sound a bit clumsy, maybe another attribute would suit better, though the general structure is more or less outlined.


----------



## learnerr

willem81 said:


> The safest interpretation would be a straightforward one then.


Exactly what was my suggestion.  It turned out that we agreed.


----------



## Caballero_Andante

willem81, 1+, I like your suggestion.


----------



## Enquiring Mind

This "... nothing if not ..."  construction is a pretty common idiom in English usually meaning "above all", "first and foremost", or "without a doubt".  Maybe some of the posts have been trying to over-analyse the meaning.  I think the version offered in #19 "... Определяющей чертой .... является" hits the nail on the head, and #20 using "прежде всего" is perfectly acceptable. Maybe even "в первую очередь" or "без сомнения" would fit the bill too. 

I found the "*Уж в чем в чем, а ...*" construction offered in #4 very interesting.  I found a number of examples of this on the net, some of which could have been translated as "... nothing if not ....", but in other cases a different idiom would be needed, but that, alas, would be wandering off-topic ...


----------



## twinsen

willem81 said:


> nothing if not = ничто иное, как


I feel obligated to weigh in and inform this thread's participants that the right way to spell it is "не что иное как"

Have a good gay


----------



## twinsen

I do not quite understand all this crazy and, frankly speaking, ridiculous opposition to "stock phrases". People talk and write in stock phrases all the time, while coinages are actually rare and are the exclusive domain of journalists and writers (like Stephen King for example). How can you demand of someone who is not a native speaker to avoid using these curiously named "stamps", expecially when he is writing a term paper?


----------



## Caballero_Andante

twinsen said:


> I feel obligated to weigh in and inform this thread's participants that the right way to spell it is "не что иное как"
> 
> Have a good gay



Good catch!


----------



## willem81

Thanks, Twinsen, I have corrected the posts. There has to be comma after 'иное' also.


----------



## learnerr

Enquiring Mind said:


> This "... nothing if not ..."  construction is a pretty common idiom in English usually meaning "above all", "first and foremost", or "without a doubt".  Maybe some of the posts have been trying to over-analyse the meaning.  I think the version offered in #19 "... Определяющей чертой .... является" hits the nail on the head, and #20 using "прежде всего" is perfectly acceptable. Maybe even "в первую очередь" or "без сомнения" would fit the bill too.


EM, the stylistic experimentation of my text was caused by a very nice feature of the source work, that I perceived and that possibly was never there: it was the implicit metaphor, in which the word "passionate" when applied to the honesty of the songs corroborates with the reader's impression of the text, that he finds, too, passionate, and thus the two qualities of being passionate are compared with each other, telling more about how passionate were the songs of Vysotskiy. Of course, such experimentation is impossible for a non-native speaker, and I never suggested to the topic starter to follow it.


twinsen said:


> People talk and write in stock phrases all the time


This is most unfortunate and unhealthy. You know, it is possible to write a paper without having words in double meanings (the supposed one (detailed) vs. the actual one (fashionable)), even when confining oneself to a very simple language ("определяющей характеристикой песен Высоцкого является [...]" is very fine to me and, in such context, not a «штамп», even if it is a "stock phrase"). Honestly, I would not even believe a paper that would not be considerate about choosing its words, since I would be unsure that the author wished to convey any sense at all. As to the point about the term papers: do you mean that term papers have to be especially meaningless?

There is nothing wrong with using existing words for what they mean, not for the sake of fashion.


----------

