# K for "qu" & "c" (orthography)



## elianecanspeak

I am curious about orthographic convention using “k” in Spanish.  I often see it in blogs, YouTube, etc.

Is there any political motivation for using  “k”? Or is it a blogging and chat convention?

Example:
“Mantente en pie, aunke haya tormentas
ke no desasosieguen tu espíritu,
mantente en pie, aunke sientas
ke akaban kon tu ímpetu.”

http://moilafemine.blogspot.com/2008/01/komo-los-arboles.html


I know the use of “k” is standard for Ladino (Judeo-Español) in Latin script; one of the reasons for this may be to adhere more closely to the original Hebrew characters, but I may be wrong about this.


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## Rayines

Es un desgraciado uso en el mundo de las comunicaciones digitales, de una sílaba con el sonido que equivale a "que".
Ke  = que


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## Juan Jacob Vilalta

No creo que tenga nada que ver con lo que pretendes: es simplemente para ahorrarse un letra, como bien dice la iracunda Rayines, la _u_, en este caso.

1.- para escribir más rápido;
2.- para que el mensaje de texto salga más barato, supongo.

Feo, opino también.


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## Dlyons

Rayines said:


> Es un desgraciado uso en el mundo de las comunicaciones digitales, de una sílaba con el sonido que equivale a "que".
> Ke  = que



Agreed, but I think there's more to it than that.

For example, "Museo chileno de arte precolombino" in Santiago has exhibits labelled "... los Inkas ...".  Would this be reverting to a Mapuche spelling?
This being use of "k" for "c" rather than "q".


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## chamyto

elianecanspeak said:


> I am curious about orthographic convention using “k” in Spanish.  I often see it in blogs, YouTube, etc.
> 
> Is there any political motivation for using  “k”? Or is it a blogging and chat convention?
> 
> Example:
> “Mantente en pie, aunke haya tormentas
> ke no desasosieguen tu espíritu,
> mantente en pie, aunke sientas
> ke akaban kon tu ímpetu.”
> 
> http://moilafemine.blogspot.com/2008/01/komo-los-arboles.html
> 
> 
> I know the use of “k” is standard for Ladino (Judeo-Español) in Latin script; one of the reasons for this may be to adhere more closely to the original Hebrew characters, but I may be wrong about this.



Maybe "ke" ( or even k ) is used instead of "que" mainly in sms 's to save spaces and to avoid writing more than one messagge.So that people don't spend much money in sending sms's


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## bgiorno

It's like *u*=you
*r*=are
same sound,


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## elianecanspeak

I have seen "Inca" spelled "Inka" in many instances : Inka's Empire Tours, Inka Grill,	Ruta Inka, etc.

Could there be more than one source for the use of "k"?  Texting and some linguistic convention?


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## Södertjej

You'll also find k instead of ca in texts, blogs etcr, so k is not always que/qué. Krmen = Carmen as letter k in Spanish is called ka. I think it has more to do with writing as little as possible than with saving money.

No idea about inka, though.


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## chamyto

Södertjej said:


> You'll also find k instead of ca in texts, blogs etcr, so k is not always que/qué. Krmen = Carmen as letter k in Spanish is called ka. I think it has more to do with writing as little as possible than with saving money.
> 
> No idea about inka, though.




Maybe it has to do with writing as much as possible and saving money


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## Södertjej

I don't think so, texts are very cheap, but even if that was the reason why using that same spelling in chats and blogs? It won't cost you more money to write donde instead of dnd while chatting. I think it's just about saving time and effort and writing fast.


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## xina

I think there is something else, soometimes we see words writen with K instead of C just for taking your atention, I think.
I'm truing to remember an example and don't get it, but it's related with an especific context, like Okupa and so on...
Sorry for the vague explanation...


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## caniho

elianecanspeak said:


> I am curious about orthographic convention using “k” in Spanish.  I often see it in blogs, YouTube, etc.
> 
> Is there any political motivation for using  “k”? Or is it a blogging and chat convention?
> 
> Example:
> “Mantente en pie, aunke haya tormentas
> ke no desasosieguen tu espíritu,
> mantente en pie, aunke sientas
> ke akaban kon tu ímpetu.”
> 
> http://moilafemine.blogspot.com/2008/01/komo-los-arboles.html
> 
> 
> I know the use of “k” is standard for Ladino (Judeo-Español) in Latin script; one of the reasons for this may be to adhere more closely to the original Hebrew characters, but I may be wrong about this.



I think that use of the letter k is previous to the internet and mobile phones era, and it does have, or used to have, some political connotations, as it is often linked to some groups that we could call antisistema.


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## elianecanspeak

In the US during the 1960s and 70s, some people in the new left spelled "America" with a "k" (as in German) to make a connection either with Kafka's "Amerika" or with the connotation that US establishment politics were equivalent to nazism.

The use of "k" for "c" or "qu" in Spanish seems more encompassing.


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## Txiri

elianecanspeak said:


> Is there any political motivation for using “k”?


 
I remember reading an article or series of articles in the Spanish newspaper _El País_ about (I believe it was) young Basques taking over empty buildings (apartments), either in London or Madrid, ... like "squatting" (i.e., "squatter's rights"), and the reference was "okupa." You could read that in English as "occupation" of the dwelling ...

I also think since Basques use the letter 'k' in autochthonous Basque words, the 'k' has some political charge from that angle, and substituting 'k' for 'qu' was I believe an anarchical stand representing the rejection of authority.

Add:

Now having read messages 11, 12, and 13, I agree with all these points.  Interestingly, the 'k' in English to evoke Naziism.  

That it is used today in sms and chatspeak, does not take away from the fact that in the era before mobile phones, the 'k' had a distinguishing usage in written Spanish. Especially Peninsular.


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## Samdie

I very much doubt that it has to do with conserving keystrokes/time. Chat rooms (certainly) and text messaging (perhaps [I don't do it so I'm not sure]), don't charge by the letter. Even if they did, most of the people that do this sort of thing have their internet/cell-phone access paid for by their parents (and, thus, give very little thought to the cost).

Some of the popular abbreviations (e.g. LOL) really do save a number of keystrokes but others (such as "k" afford only a trivial saving). I suspect that the primary factor motivating such practices is the desire to be part of the "in crowd" (the "cognoscenti") and to emphasize that they are *different* from their parents. Piercings, purple hair, etc. are, primarily, attempts to assert ones individuality (even when *all* of ones friends are doing the same thing).


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## Natsumi

Yo creo que la razón es mucho más sencilla... es la "moda". 

Ahorra tiempo al escribir y se supone que se ve "mejor" :S , mi hermana que tiene 18 años, cuando me envía un mensaje al celular o al correo electrónico escribe algo así:

"Ola, no t olvides d yevar las cosas q t enkrgo ma" 

Traducción:

" Hola, no te olvides de llevar las cosas que te encargó mamá."


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## dexterciyo

Dlyons said:


> Agreed, but I think there's more to it than that.
> 
> For example, "Museo chileno de arte precolombino" in Santiago has exhibits labelled "... los Inkas ...".  Would this be reverting to a Mapuche spelling?
> This being use of "k" for "c" rather than "q".



I believe that is pure coincidence.

This might be of your interest (Wikipedia):



> Quechua has been written using the Roman alphabet since the Spanish conquest of Peru. However, written Quechua is not utilized by the Quechua-speaking people at large due to the lack of printed referential material in Quechua.
> 
> Until the 20th century, Quechua was written with a Spanish-based orthography. Examples: _Inca, Huayna Cápac, Collasuyo, Mama Ocllo, Viracocha, quipu, tambo, condor_. This orthography is the most familiar to Spanish speakers, and as a corollary, has been used for most borrowings into English.
> 
> In 1975, the Peruvian government of Juan Velasco adopted a new orthography for Quechua. This is the writing system preferred by the Academia Mayor de la Lengua Quechua. Examples: _Inka, Wayna Qapaq, Qollasuyu, Mama Oqllo, Wiraqocha, khipu, tampu, kuntur_. This orthography:
> 
> 
> uses w instead of hu for the /w/ sound.
> distinguishes velar k from uvular q, where both were spelled c or qu in the traditional system.
> distinguishes simple, ejective, and aspirated stops in dialects (such as that of Cuzco) which have them — thus _khipu_ above.
> continues to use the Spanish five-vowel system
> .


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## ScottFromUtah

Dexterciiyo,

Thanks for mentioning the "official" Quechua spelling and the difference between the earlier Spanish spelling. Of course, the Spanish spelling still persists. For example, the "official" (I believe) spelling of Cuzco is Cusco, which I think is more common now here in Peru than the older Cuzco spelling.

In 2001, I lived and worked for five days in the village of Pakarimuy, Peru--and yes, the villagers spelled it with a k.

Scott in Peru


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## Dlyons

dexterciyo said:


> I believe that is pure coincidence.
> 
> This might be of your interest (Wikipedia):



Thanks dexterciyo,  

I hadn't seen the wiki article before.  That may help explain why "k" is more frequent in Chile (this being just a theory of mine and maybe completely untrue).


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## JB

I just want to defend the "saving time" argument.  Even though I tend towards being a purist in the area of language (not absolutely 100% purist - but since there is so much ignorance and sloppiness, I do my part to keep things ocrrect),
nevertheless, when I am sending a text message from my basic cell phone (not a Blackberry), it takes much less effort to type "u r" vs. "you are", and also less time --  on the cell, every minute counts.


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## Södertjej

jbruceismay said:


> nevertheless, when I am sending a text message from my basic cell phone (not a Blackberry), it takes much less effort to type "u r" vs. "you are", and also less time --.


So do I, even though I'm not a teen my txts are full of xq (por qué/para qué) dnd (dónde) dsd (dsd) mñn (mañana) kndo (cuándo although logic says it should b qando) km (como) bss (besos), etc. Just saving time.


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## PACOALADROQUE

elianecanspeak said:


> I am curious about orthographic convention using “k” in Spanish. I often see it in blogs, YouTube, etc.
> 
> Is there any political motivation for using “k”? Or is it a blogging and chat convention?
> 
> Example:
> “Mantente en pie, aunke haya tormentas
> ke no desasosieguen tu espíritu,
> mantente en pie, aunke sientas
> ke akaban kon tu ímpetu.”
> 
> http://moilafemine.blogspot.com/2008/01/komo-los-arboles.html
> 
> 
> I know the use of “k” is standard for Ladino (Judeo-Español) in Latin script; one of the reasons for this may be to adhere more closely to the original Hebrew characters, but I may be wrong about this.


 
Puede que no estés equivocado con lo de judeo-español. Mira este enlace:
http://www.aki-yerushalayim.co.il/ay/index.htm


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## workingonit

jbruceismay said:


> I just want to defend the "saving time" argument. ... it takes much less effort to type "u r" vs. "you are", and also less time --  on the cell, every minute counts.



Having watched my granddaughter juggle half a dozen instant-messaging conversations at the same time, I believe the time factor is paramount.  Not the cost, just the time itself--so that she could reply without delay to each incoming message.


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## Bandama

Txiri said:


> I remember reading an article or series of articles in the Spanish newspaper _El País_ about (I believe it was) young Basques taking over empty buildings (apartments), either in London or Madrid, ... like "squatting" (i.e., "squatter's rights"), and the reference was "okupa." You could read that in English as "occupation" of the dwelling ...
> 
> I also think since Basques use the letter 'k' in autochthonous Basque words, the 'k' has some political charge from that angle, and substituting 'k' for 'qu' was I believe an anarchical stand representing the rejection of authority.
> 
> Add:
> 
> Now having read messages 11, 12, and 13, I agree with all these points.  Interestingly, the 'k' in English to evoke Naziism.
> 
> That it is used today in sms and chatspeak, does not take away from the fact that in the era before mobile phones, the 'k' had a distinguishing usage in written Spanish. Especially Peninsular.



I completely subscribe to what Txiri says. Irrespective of the possibility of it being standard Ladino (I don't know anything about this), the use of "k" in Spanish (in Spain at least) has had in recent years the connotation Txiri points out. Given the poetic nature of the text and the fact that there are no other typical sms abbreviations apart from the "k", I very much doubt it is part of a text message, but the work of someone who wanted to endow the poem with this kind of political charge. I would expect to read something like this in the form of graffiti, for example.


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## elianecanspeak

When I google "komo los estan ke" I get 1,660,000 hits, and most appear not to be in ladino.

Examples from the first screen:

"Flickr: ZEBA.-'s Photostream
porfavor eskriban palabras por la rechucha ! komo tan ahueonaos ke no saben .... komo yo, y hacen lo posible por salir de esta rutina ke es la vida misma, ..."

"LA LINGUA DJUDEO-ESPANYOLA EN ESPANYA
Komo es savido, esto no es un esfuenyo: ya se estan eskriviendo muevos livros, diksionarios, reflaneros, i todo modo de texstos ke apoyan el proyekto de dar ..."

"Shanghai - Wikipedia
Shanghai iva empesar a tomar emportansya komo sivdad durante la dinastia Han .... Esta sivdad es la unika en el mundo ke tyene un sistema de Transrapid ...
lad.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai "

"[PDF] Page 1 Page 2 Page 3 Page 4 Page 5 Page 6 Page 7 Ladino Version of ...
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
la tierra i nos fruchiguantes komo arvol ke esta plantado sovre fuentes de las aguas ke su oja ermoza i su fruto muncho: 1:17 rvnip. ...
www.stanford.edu/group/mediterranean/.../24_sos_vienna_part1.pdf"

This is a phenomenon not restricted to messaging.


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## workingonit

elianecanspeak said:


> This is a phenomenon not restricted to messaging.



Agreed.  Habits developed in messaging (or picked up from friends who message or text) do spread into other spheres.  Professors are increasingly finding such abbreviated spellings in term papers and other work their students submit.  As the young inherit the earth, this phenomenon will only increase--and dictionaries will have no choice but to reflect popular usage.


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## elianecanspeak

workingonit said:


> Agreed.  Habits developed in messaging (or picked up from friends who message or text) do spread into other spheres.  Professors are increasingly finding such abbreviated spellings in term papers and other work their students submit.  As the young inherit the earth, this phenomenon will only increase--and dictionaries will have no choice but to reflect popular usage.



What a fertile area for descriptive linguists!


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