# Sereṭ lavan 'al kipah adumah



## César Lasso

Hello!

I'm trying to learn a bit of Hebrew to give a better service as a volunteer online librarian.

The above title has been freely translated as «Seven inches», but it obviously must have a different litteral meaning. What does it mean?

I am also interested in the dot beneath the T of Sereṭ (as transliterated by the Library of Congress). I think it shows letter tet, not tav - Am I right?

Is the pronunciation of tet and tav the same in spoken Hebrew?

Todah rabah!

PS. I hope my "signature" in Arabic does not sound too shocking in a Hebrew forum. It's just the first words of a poem written 1000 years ago.


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## origumi

It means _a white ribbon on a red hood_. Follwing the k/q issue, I guess (as you proposed) that t with dot is for tet while t with no dot is for taw. Both sound practically identical in modern Hebrew.

Regarding the signature - it's a language forum, you can write any language you like, many threads here discuss Arabic / Hebrew issues. And after all, aren't we all blind until our eyes are opened?


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## origumi

Library of Congress transliteration: http://www.loc.gov/catdir/cpso/romanization/hebrew.pdf. t-dot is for tet indeed, k-dot for qof.


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## César Lasso

Todah rabah. I do appreciate your information. 


By the way, an Israeli reader suggested eliminating the apostrophe showing 'ayin in the transliteration (_al kipah adumah_), and I denied the suggestion based on the "authority" of the Library of Congress. Do common Hebrew speakers tend to eliminate the 'ayin in transliterations?


As I see it, the H in the article _ha-_ or at the end of many words is mute, but they do not eliminate it in transliterations --_Haaretz_ is the transliterated name of an Israeli newspaper, and I believe that H is mute. So why eliminate a symbol showing that there's an 'ayin in the original Hebrew?


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## origumi

Transliteration of Hebrew to Latin letters is a problem simply because there's no agreed system. I hope one will be created. Part of the problem is lack of Latin letters for some Hebrew sounds, among them alef, Het, khaf, `ayin. Our Arabic neigbours, for whom the problem is more acute, employ "chat letters" - digits that represent the missing sounds, e.g. 3 for `ayin (it's similar to the way `ayin is writtenn in Arabic). Another convention is allocating ` for `ayin  (as I do) and ' for alef (but only when it's important to mention that there's an alef).

Regarding mute letters:

Letter ה=h is not mute in the definite article ha-, yet in modern Hebrew tends to lose the aspiration and become mute. It is always transcribed as h.
Final h  in most words is (and always was) mute. Sometime it's transcribed as h to preserve the Hebrew spelling, sometimes omitted to represent the sound.
Letter ע=` (`ayin)  is not mute but like ה=h keeps losing it's original distinctive sound and becomes mute. Also, Latin transcription readers are not likely to be able to express it, so omitting is more convenient sometimes than signs like ' or `.


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## César Lasso

origumi said:


> Transliteration of Hebrew to Latin letters is a problem simply because there's no agreed system. I hope one will be created. Part of the problem is lack of Latin letters for some Hebrew sounds, among them alef, Het, khaf, `ayin. Our Arabic neigbours, for whom the problem is more acute, employ "chat letters" - digits that represent the missing sounds, e.g. 3 for `ayin (it's similar to the way `ayin is writtenn in Arabic). Another convention is allocating ` for `ayin  (as I do) and ' for alef (but only when it's important to mention that there's an alef).



I consider your information invaluable.  The fact is that I took my BA in Semitic Linguistics in 1992 but never studied Hebrew, since I had moved from the 2nd year in Spanish Linguistics into the 3rd of Semitic, so I had to keep Latin besides Arabic that 3rd year and then go wholly into Arabic.

Besides the Arabic "3ayn", which is always pronounced in their language, the Arabs fast-text 2 for alif when it is important to be preserved (for the similarity with the "hamza" that accompanies their alif).

I am concerned with a decent transliteration for Hebrew, since a world trend nowadays is fast-texting messages and, as I have experienced before, the native speakers are not always the best friends of the purity or correctness of their language.

You made me feel welcome in your forum! Todah rabah!


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## شيري

Cesar Lasso, since you mentioned that you know Arabic, then I thought I'd mention that the ה=h in the end of a word is exactly like the ة at the end of words in Arabic (and similarly often indicates that a word is feminine). Just like in Arabic, you don't hear it unless it's part an اضافة. In Hebrew, the ה will actually be replaced with ת=t in such structures. I am unfamiliar with the congress' transliteration system, but in general, I don't think that the ة commonly appears as h in transliteration of Arabic words (but you would know better), and similarly, I wouldn't put an h to indicate ה at the end of words.


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## César Lasso

Todah rabah, شيري



شيري said:


> I wouldn't put an h to indicate ה at the end of words.



...or _toda raba_, according to your information. Well, then I can see that Hebrew speakers are divided on whether to transliterate ה (called _he _or _het_?) when it shows feminine at the end of a word. 



شيري said:


> I am unfamiliar with the congress' transliteration system, but in general, I don't think that the ة commonly appears as h in transliteration of Arabic words



I can confirm the situation is the same with the Semitic sibling, Arabic: I never transliterate that _ta marbûTa _(_al-lugha al-3arabîya_, the Arabic language) but many Arabs, even language scholars, do: *al-Mamnū' min al-ṣarf fī al-lughah al-ʻArabīyah (a book on morphology used at the University of Kuwait).*


Changing to another question in this thread on transliteration, you both agree that the `ayin should be transliterated, right? - `al kipah adumah (or also: `al kipa aduma)


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## origumi

Transliteration of Hebrew `ayin is a matter of preference. The Akademia says that it should appears only in the middle of word and be omitted at start and end of word (see link below). However this is mainly for road signs and similar. Personally I think that in academic and other formal context `ayin must be there, no matter what system is in use - IPA, Akademia, LoC, etc.

http://hebrew-academy.huji.ac.il/hahlatot/TheTranscription/Documents/ATAR1.pdf


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## César Lasso

Priceless information. I have no words to express my gratitude. At first the document by the Akademia "scared" me, all written in Hebrew, but then I found the table of correspondence. Of course, feel free to contact me privately if any of you had a question about Spanish, Portuguese or Arabic where I could help.

César


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## شيري

Regarding the questions about the name of the letter, ה is called _he_. 
_het _might be the name of the letter ח, assuming the 'h' in 'het' stands for the sound of 'x' in IPA, خ in Arabic (het is actually analogous to ح in Arabic, but pronounciation has changed).


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## César Lasso

شيري said:


> Regarding the questions about the name of the letter, ה is called _he_.
> _het _might be the name of the letter ח, assuming the 'h' in 'het' stands for the sound of 'x' in IPA, خ in Arabic (het is actually analogous to ح in Arabic, but pronounciation has changed).



Thank you. Or the pronunciation of Spanish J (for example, Jerez --a town-- or jerez --sherry wine  --)

I've just checked that it should be transliterated with an h-dot not to confuse it with _he, _but it poses a problem for fast-texting (no h-dot available in a simple Latin script or keyboard). Do Hebrew speakers have a trick to show difference between _het_ and _he_ in transliteration? You see, the Arabs fast-text ح as 7 so they don't confuse it with _h_​ : A7mad vs. ahrâm


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## شيري

Texting in Arabic using English letters in very common. In contrast, texting in Hebrew using English letters is very rare. At least I never do that, and neither do any of my friends. We text/email in either Hebrew with Hebrew letters or in English with English letters. In Israel, mostly the former, among Israelis abroad - both.


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## César Lasso

شيري said:


> Texting in Arabic using English letters in very common. In contrast, texting in Hebrew using English letters is very rare. At least I never do that, and neither do any of my friends. We text/email in either Hebrew with Hebrew letters or in English with English letters. In Israel, mostly the former, among Israelis abroad - both.



It's all a mystery for me. I can guess Russians, Hebrew speakers and Arabs are not very fond of changing their alphabet (with the exception you mention for free-texting Arabic messages). My academic Arabic transliterations for Arabic books are not having much success among the Arabs in Shelfari  but at least they are academic, from the Library of Congress or Arabic Universities).

In other times the Jews, to protect themselves as a community, were very used to change alphabets. There was a Jewish literature in Medieval Spain encrypted in different alphabets (mostly Spanish dialect of the Jews but written in Arabic or Hebrew script).


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## fotus

*ÊFSHARÚYÓTH (Tal Nícan) * *
*Nômar sheâthah shóchev 'al hacad, hamón zman, 'ód m`'at nóvember ù`âthah 'al àóthó hacad, halexí *
*Qvar qóêveth l`cha, gam haàózen qóêveth, hacawar m`'úkam, hagav thafús, hacla'óth nimxacóth *
*Ù`сhol hagúf shelcha có'ek day. *
*-Êsthóvev lacad hashení. **-Nômar sheêyn l`cha cad shení.
*It's a poem in Hebrew printed in a transcription-transliteration system (my invention)


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## César Lasso

fotus said:


> *ÊFSHARÚYÓTH (Tal Nícan) * *
> *Nômar sheâthah shóchev 'al hacad, hamón zman, 'ód m`'at nóvember ù`âthah 'al àóthó hacad, halexí *
> *Qvar qóêveth l`cha, gam haàózen qóêveth, hacawar m`'úkam, hagav thafús, hacla'óth nimxacóth *
> *Ù`сhol hagúf shelcha có'ek day. *
> *-Êsthóvev lacad hashení. **-Nômar sheêyn l`cha cad shení.
> *It's a poem in Hebrew printed in a transcription-transliteration system (my invention)



I don't know much about Hebrew poetry, but there's a book available for free download at library.nu, if you search for Peter Cole, the editor:

The Dream of the Poem Hebrew Poetry from Muslim and Christian Spain, 950-1492 

It seems to be a nice book. It's translated into English.


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