# All Slavic languages: bistrica



## the pensive wombat

I don't know any Slav languages but I've recently been travelling in the Czech Republic, Slovenia and Croatia. 

Can someone please tell me what *bistrica *means? I saw it in compound names like *Ilirska Bistrica *but I couldn't find anything helpful on the internet.

Thank you.


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## Kartof

My guess is that it means rapids, as in a fast moving stream.


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## the pensive wombat

Thanks for that.


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## jazyk

> My guess is that it means rapids, as in a fast moving stream.


It sounds very plausible to me.


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## DenisBiH

It could be, but one needs to take into account that the current meaning of _bistar_/_bistra_/_bistro _in Croatian is "clear; transparent" and not "quick, fast, rapid". I found out about this false friend when Russians on YT were translating the title of a song we sent to Eurosong, _Bistra voda_ ("Clear water") as "Fast-moving water".

I don't know which meaning is the original one. Given that _bistar_ also means "smart" here, I'd say it's "quick".


EDIT: HJP lists _bistrica_ as "mountain stream, rapid" indeed. I'm not very familiar with that word.


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## TriglavNationalPark

According to Marko Snoj's _Etimološki slovar slovenskih zemljepisnih imen_ (The Etymological Dictionary of Slovenian Geographical Names), *bistrica* comes from the Old Slavic *bystrъ *(quickly flowing). That evolved into *bystrica* (a quickly flowing river), which gave the name to towns near rivers, streams, and creeks, or near their sources.

According to Snoj, the word is found in all Slavic languages. (As in BCS, *bister* means "clear" rather than "fast" in modern Slovenian.)

By the way, the toponym Feistritz, common in southern Austria, comes from the Slovenian *bistrica*.


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## marco_2

It is the same in Polish: we have a lot of  such names for towns or rivers *(bystrzyca) *which originate from "a quickly flowing river." And *bystry *in Polish means _rapid _or _sharp-witted, clever, cute._


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## Azori

In Slovak _bystrina_ (or _bystrica_) means "swift mountain creek / stream". The adjective _bystrý_ means 1. swift, quick, rapid / 2. acute, keen, sharp / 3. quick-witted, bright, perceptive. There are many place names with the word _bystrica / bystrina_ in Slovakia.


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## the pensive wombat

Thank you all very much for taking the trouble to reply.


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## Orlin

In Bulgarian _бистър_ means the same as in BCS and there are many rivers called _Бистрица_.


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## DenisBiH

So, the meaning "clear" is an all-South-Slavic feature? Interesting.


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## ilocas2

Czech:

*Bystřice*


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## the pensive wombat

Thanks, *ilocas2*.


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## Marski

DenisBiH said:


> So, the meaning "clear" is an all-South-Slavic feature? Interesting.



Yes, bistar/ra/ro means clear in Macedonian, too. It also means bright when it refers to a person's intelligence.


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## the pensive wombat

Thanks, everyone. I've finished up learning far more than I expected!


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## ray.

lior neith said:


> In Slovak _bystrica_ means "swift mountain creek / stream". .


 _'torrent'_ might be the right translation:  BanskàBystrica , in the Slovak ore mountains, _'torrent of the mine[s]'_


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## DenisBiH

ray. said:


> _'torrent'_ might be the right translation:  BanskàBystrica , in the Slovak ore mountains, _'torrent of the mine[s]'_



Ore? Isn't that rather *Ban's* Bystrica, where _ban_ is a ruler's title? In medieval Bosnia prior to the establishment of kingdom, and in Croatia in both medieval and later times, _ban _was the title of a ruler (of varying power depending on the location and time); like in Kulin ban. I always assumed, wrongly perhaps, that such placenames in some other Slavic lands, including Slovakia, were related to that title.


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## bibax

*Baňa* (Cz. báň or báně, Hung. bánya) means '(coal or ore) mine'. Baník is 'miner' (also common name of FCs: e.g. Baník Ostrava). The original meaning was 'bath'. Protoslavic baňa is from Greek βαλανείον.


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## vianie

And since there are no *-ňský *endings in Slovak language, *ň* has to be depalatelised when the noun is adjectivised. (Compare CZ _Plzeňský_ with SK _Plzenský_ or PL _Akwiński_ with SK _Akvinský_.)



> Protoslavic baňa is from Greek βαλανείον.


According to Šimon Ondruš, a Slovak linguist, that's a doubtful theory. (on the pages 15 - 16, for Slovak readers only )



> (Cz. báň or báně, Hung. bánya)


Another cognates of *baňa *are *баня*, *бања*, *banja*, or *bania*.


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## Marski

Бања (banja) still means "bath" in Macedonian.


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## ray.

vianie said:


> And since there are no *-ňský *endings in Slovak language, *ň* has to be depalatelised when the noun is adjectivised.


That's right, vianie, 'banský' is the adjectival form _[pertaining to a mine'_] of 'baňa' [mine]


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## Bruno 1234

DenisBiH said:


> Ore? Isn't that rather *Ban's* Bystrica, where _ban_ is a ruler's title? In medieval Bosnia prior to the establishment of kingdom, and in Croatia in both medieval and later times, _ban _was the title of a ruler (of varying power depending on the location and time); like in Kulin ban. I always assumed, wrongly perhaps, that such placenames in some other Slavic lands, including Slovakia, were related to that title.




Zdravo!

a Croatian friend of mine (Slavonski) has explained me that localities with the word "banja" must be declined as any other couple of  adjective+name, that is:Marko dolazi od Banje Kovilače, ona je iz Banje Vrućice,  itd.

He says too that Banja Luka must be treated like a single word, and he explains me (and actually says) that voz ide za Banja Luku, auto dođe od Banja Luke itd. But in most places (even in wikipedia:  oko 10% stanovništva Banje Luke se bavilo trgovinom i obrtom) I don't see this "special treatment" for this town.

Has any sense his way of speaking or it's just a mistake? 

Hvala


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## Duya

Usually, _Banja_ means 'spa', and the second word is some kind of qualificative/adjective. So, the first part is correct.

However, in _Banja Luka_ only, the Banja does not mean spa, but is actually a (fossilized) adjective. From English Wikipedia:



> The name is interpreted as "Ban's meadow", from the words _ban_ ("a medieval dignitary"), and _luka_ ("a valley" or "a meadow"). The identity of the ban and the meadow in question remain uncertain, and popular etymology combines the modern words _banja_ ("bath" or "spa"), or _bajna_ ("marvelous") and _luka_ ("port"). A different interpretation is suggested by the Hungarian name "Lukácsbanya", i.e. "Luke's Mine", which is also the meaning of Slovak "Banja Luka". In modern usage, the name is pronounced and usually declined (u Banjaluci) as one word, and often written as such; the citizens reportedly prefer the more correct form with inflected adjective (u _Banjoj Luci_).[3]



Thus, it is either written _Banjaluka_ and declined as one word, or _Banja Luka_, where both parts are declined. I would argue that half-baked solution (*'U Banja Luci') is incorrect, though you would probably encounter such usage.


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## Bruno 1234

_A ja se pitam_ moja draga:... šta će biti sa nama (bez Duye)?

Ponovo, hvala.


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## marco_2

I am just wondering: why in Polish does it exist the word _banialuki _which means "rubbish, stupid things". Does it have anything in common with the city of Banjaluka?


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## DenisBiH

marco_2 said:


> I am just wondering: why in Polish does it exist the word _banialuki _which means "rubbish, stupid things". Does it have anything in common with the city of Banjaluka?



This seems to offer an etymology, but my Polish is not very good. Could you perhaps translate?



> Słowo "banialuki", oznaczające niedorzeczności, głupstwa, pochodzi od imienia bohaterki baśni fantastycznej wierszem Hieronima Morsztyna (ok. 1581 - ok. 1623), zatytułowanej _Historia ucieszna o zacnej królewnie Banialuce wschodniej krainy_ (wyd. pośmiertnie ok. 1650). Banja Luka to nazwa miejscowości w Bośni, dlaczego jednak Morsztyn nadał takie imię bohaterce swojego romansu, nie wiadomo.



Here's another, longer article.


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## marco_2

I see. So a Polish Baroque poet Morsztyn named in such a way (queen Banialuka) a heroine of his poem and because this poem wasn't the best of his works, it was mocked in 18th century by other poets and they coined an expression _pleść banialuki _(to tell rubbish). Still, no one can explain, why Morsztyn chose such a name for his heroine - it was probably just his fantasy.


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## DenisBiH

marco_2 said:


> I see. So a Polish Baroque poet Morsztyn named in such a way (queen Banialuka) a heroine of his poem and because this poem wasn't the best of his works, it was mocked in 18th century by other poets and they coined an expression _pleść banialuki _(to tell rubbish). Still, no one can explain, why Morsztyn chose such a name for his heroine - it was probably just his fantasy.




Interesting. The only two historical Polish queens with a link to Bosnia that come to my mind are Jadwiga of Poland (Saint Hedwig), who was Bosnian on her mother's side; and her mother, Elizabeth of Bosnia, the wife of king Louis I of Hungary and the daughter of Stephen II, ban of Bosnia. 

Furthermore, from 1553 until 1638, i.e. during the time in which the author lived, Banja Luka, rather than Sarajevo, was the seat of vizier i.e. the capital of the Bosnian Eyalet of the Ottoman Empire. If one wanted to speculate and if there is any link to Bosnia, it would not be entirely strange that Banja Luka was chosen as the name of that character.


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