# Urdu: using the definite article



## Jabir

Hello!

I'm still not sure when to translate the English "the" into Urdu.

e.g.

_The treasury is beyond the hospital_; I'd translate as _Khazana hospital ke pare hai

_but

_The carriage was in front of my shop_; I'd translate as _Voh gaRi meri dukan ke samne thi

_and I have no idea if it is necessary in "The soldiers were outside the village"

Can someone please give me a light?

Thanks!


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## marrish

Hi,

Urdu does not need a definite article like the English the. One need not translate it. 

I can't give you a light, I don't smoke.


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## Alfaaz

Really interesting question! I believe such a thing doesn't exist in Urdu and/or Hindi....! 

The people were going-----------log jaa rahe the (questions arises: which people? kon se log?) In English, "the" people, but in Urdu just "log"....(which may be confusing)
Those people were going---------woh log jaa rahe the
These people were going---------yeh log jaa rahe the

I noticed this first while attempting to learn other foreign languages like Arabic: 
al-kitaab: the book, 
but in Urdu: (just) kitaab

This does allow for interesting wording in poetry, though, which might sometimes become confusing to translate into English.....


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## marrish

Alfaaz said:


> Really interesting question! I believe such a thing doesn't exist in Urdu and/or Hindi....!
> 
> The people were going-----------(kuchh) log jaa rahe the (questions arises: which people? kon se log?)
> Those people were going---------woh log jaa rahe the
> These people were going---------yeh log jaa rahe the
> 
> I noticed this first while attempting to learn other foreign languages like Arabic:
> al-kitaab: the book,
> but in Urdu: (just) kitaab


Guess why it is marked in red?


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## Alfaaz

> Guess why it is marked in red?



kucch log would be "some" people 

Kucch log roothh kar bhi lagte hain kitne pyaare 
How attractive/beautiful some people look even when sulk
chup reh ke bhi nazar mein hain pyaar ke ishaare
(even) while/though remaining quite, there are signals/signs of love in their eyes/sight


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## marrish

Jabir said:


> _The treasury is beyond the hospital_; I'd translate as _Khazana hospital ke pare hai __
> (excuse me for going into details, but in Urdu it is haspataal or aspataal, not hospital)
> 
> _but
> 
> _The carriage was in front of my shop_; I'd translate as _Voh gaRi meri dukan ke samne thi__
> gaaRii meerii dukaan kee saamnee thii گاڑی میری دکان کے سامنے تھی۔
> voh gaaRii means that car(riage).
> 
> _and I have no idea if it is necessary in "The soldiers were outside the village"
> _
> It is absolutely not necessary, or in other words, it is impossible._
> 
> Can someone please give me a light?
> 
> Thanks!


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## Qureshpor

Jabir said:


> Hello!
> 
> I'm still not sure when to translate the English "the" into Urdu.
> 
> e.g.
> 
> _The treasury is beyond the hospital_; I'd translate as _Khazana hospital ke pare hai
> 
> _but
> 
> _The carriage was in front of my shop_; I'd translate as _Voh gaRi meri dukan ke samne thi
> 
> _and I have no idea if it is necessary in "The soldiers were outside the village"
> 
> Can someone please give me a light?
> 
> Thanks!



With a name like yours who needs the article? Your word itself *is *the final article!

Sentences have a context and it is not difficult to see when something is definite, indefinite or plain generic.

aadamii ne kahaa, "kahaaN rahe ho itnii der!"

You will no doubt have read something about this man before you get to this sentence.

The man said, "Where have you been all this time!?"

us ne vahaaN ek aadamii dekhaa jo ko'ii kitaab paRh rahaa thaa.

He saw a man there who was reading some book.

ek jaanvar aisaa jis kii dum par paisaa (puzzle)

Such a living being that has a coin on its tail.

Tahnii pih kisii shajar kii tanhaa
bulbul thaa ko'ii udaas baiThaa

Iqbal

On a branch of a certain tree, alone
Was perched a nightingale, careworn

(Translation by UVR)
...

sun kar bulbul kii aah-o-zaarii
jugnuu ko'ii paas hii se bolaa

On hearing the nightingale's lament
A firefly spoke from quite near bye

yih kahaaN kii dostii hai kih bane haiN dost naasiH
ko'ii chaarah-saaz hotaa, ko'ii Gham-gusaar hotaa

Ghalib

What kind of friendship is this when friends have become counsellors?
How I wish there was a remedy provider or at least some sympathiser


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## marrish

Alfaaz said:


> *kucch* log would be "some" people
> 
> *Kucch* log roothh kar bhi lagte hain kitne pyaare
> How attractive/beautiful some people look even when sulk
> chup reh ke bhi nazar mein hain pyaar ke ishaare
> (even) while/though remaining quite, there are are signals/signs of love in their eyes/sight



Yes, it is true, it would be ''some'' people. But it has not to be necessarily translated as such. The problem is that idiomatically in Urdu only ''loog'', unaccompanied by any other word, is not used *I think!

Please, what is your guess why *kon* is in red and why there is something red this time?


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## Alfaaz

> Please, what is your guess why *kon* is in red and why there is something red this time?



Sorry marrish saaHib! 
There is no word in Urdu like کچ "kuch", but acutally should be transliterated as "kuchh" کچھ ! (to indicate the aspiration)
"Kon" could be misleading (sound like the English borrowing "cone" as in "ice cream cone" or the Urdu tikon-triangle), so it should have been transliterated as "kaun" !

 Hopefully the guesses are correct!


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## marrish

Alfaaz said:


> Sorry marrish saaHib!
> There is no word in Urdu like کچ "kuch", but acutally should be transliterated as "kuchh" کچھ ! (to indicated the aspiration)
> "Kon" could be misleading (sound like the English borrowing "cone" as in "ice cream cone" or the Urdu tikon-triangle), so it should have been transliterated as "kaun" !
> 
> Hopefully the guesses are correct!


Very correct!!! Thank you. By the way, there is no shaddah on ch.


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## Qureshpor

Alfaaz said:


> Really interesting question! I believe such a thing doesn't exist in Urdu and/or Hindi....!
> 
> The people were going-----------log jaa rahe the (questions arises: which people? kon se log?) In English, "the" people, but in Urdu just "log"....(which may be confusing)
> Those people were going---------woh log jaa rahe the
> These people were going---------yeh log jaa rahe the
> 
> I noticed this first while attempting to learn other foreign languages like Arabic:
> al-kitaab: the book,
> but in Urdu: (just) kitaab
> 
> This does allow for interesting wording in poetry, though, which might sometimes become confusing to translate into English.....




Alfaaz jii, I was wondering if your first sentence ought to be..

People were going. (Here "people" is unspecified)

log jaa rahe the.

"kuchh log" could imply "Some people" (as opposed to all people) or "Certain people" (ba3z log).


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## Alfaaz

> Alfaaz jii, I was wondering if your first sentence ought to be..
> 
> People were going. (Here "people" is unspecified)
> 
> log jaa rahe the.



Now that you mention it Qureshpor SaaHib, it could be "people were going"...so it seems that "the" adds some specificity/detail that doesn't exist in Urdu/Hindi...?


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## Jabir

Thanks everybody!

Now, I got confused because in another thread marrish SaaHib suggested this to me: "_voh aadamii joo aap kee kamree meeN thaa, meeraa bhaa'ii hai" __to translate__ "__The man, who was in your room, is my brother".

_But I believe the "voh" in this case is in relation to the relative pronoun "joo", right?

and QP SaaHib, I dind't get it: "With a name like yours who needs the article?"


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## Qureshpor

Alfaaz said:


> Now that you mention it Qureshpor SaaHib, it could be "people were going"...so it seems that "the" adds some specificity/detail that doesn't exist in Urdu/Hindi...?



No, I think you have misunderstood my point. Urdu has "the", "a" etc as shown in the examples I have given in my previous post. People in your example (without the "the") would indicate people in general.


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## Qureshpor

Jabir said:


> ...and QP SaaHib, I dind't get it: "With a name like yours who needs the article?"



When one has to explain a "witty" remark, it obviously was not all that funny!

"jaabir" in Urdu means a "tyrant". I was implying that you could get away with anything whether you use the article or not! Just a bad joke!


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## marrish

Jabir said:


> Thanks everybody!
> 
> Now, I got confused because in another thread marrish SaaHib suggested this to me: "_voh aadamii joo aap kee kamree meeN thaa, meeraa bhaa'ii hai" __to translate__ "__The man, who was in your room, is my brother".
> 
> _*But I believe the "voh" in this case is in relation to the relative pronoun "joo", right?
> *


*Yes, you are absolutely right *


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## greatbear

Jabir said:


> Hello!
> 
> I'm still not sure when to translate the English "the" into Urdu.
> 
> e.g.
> 
> _The treasury is beyond the hospital_; I'd translate as _Khazana hospital ke pare hai
> 
> _but
> 
> _The carriage was in front of my shop_; I'd translate as _Voh gaRi meri dukan ke samne thi
> 
> _and I have no idea if it is necessary in "The soldiers were outside the village"
> 
> Can someone please give me a light?
> 
> Thanks!



There would be an "ek" to translate indefinite; in its absence, definiteness is understood.
"Taangaa meri dukaan ke aage khada thaa" means either "The carriage was .." or "Carriage was .."; otherwise "Ek taangaa .." ("A carriage was ..").

A normal English construction would be "Soldiers were outside the village"; only if you already mentioned a set of soldiers and still talking about them, you would say "The soldiers". In Hindi, both would be "Sipaahi gaaoN ke bahaar the"; however, if you want to translate "des soldats" (Fr.), it's possible to do so using "kuchh sipaahi" (literally "some soldiers", but in English we would still say "soldiers", since English doesn't have the plural of indefinite article - similarly in Hindi as well you could just say "sipaahi").


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## marrish

greatbear said:


> There would be an "ek" to translate indefinite; in its absence, definiteness is understood.
> "Taangaa meri dukaan ke aage *khada* thaa" means either "The carriage was .." or "Carriage was .."; otherwise "Ek taangaa .." ("A carriage was ..").
> 
> A normal English construction would be "Soldiers were outside the village"; only if you already mentioned a set of soldiers and still talking about them, you would say "The soldiers". In Hindi, both would be "Sipaahi gaaoN ke bahaar the"; however, if you want to translate "des soldats" (Fr.), it's possible to do so using "kuchh sipaahi" (literally "some soldiers", but in English we would still say "soldiers", since English doesn't have the plural of indefinite article - similarly in Hindi as well you could just say "sipaahi").


Welcome back, greatbear SaaHib, I find your explanation a very good contribution which clarifies many things.
Pardon me for a minuscule remark; provided Jabir SaaHib is pursuing the intricacies of the Urdu, for the sake of him I'd like to say that in Urdu we use khaRaa کھڑا a sound that has nothing to do with 'd'. I hope you don't mind


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## greatbear

marrish said:


> Welcome back, greatbear SaaHib, I find your explanation a very good contribution which clarifies many things.
> Pardon me for a minuscule remark; provided Jabir SaaHib is pursuing the intricacies of the Urdu, for the sake of him I'd like to say that in Urdu we use khaRaa کھڑا a sound that has nothing to do with 'd'. I hope you don't mind



Thanks, marrish!
I guess the sound is the same in Hindi; it's just that I don't know how to transliterate it in English, so I used the "d", that's all. Thanks for your addition, so now the transliteration is also perfect.


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## Qureshpor

greatbear said:


> Thanks, marrish!
> I guess the sound is the same in Hindi; it's just that I don't know how to transliterate it in English, so I used the "d", that's all. Thanks for your addition, so now the transliteration is also perfect.



marrish SaaHib and gb. The explanation as to why Urdu speakers normally use an r (R) for the retroflex whilst Hindi speakers normally use a d/D is very simple. In Urdu, the letter used to depict this retroflex is an r (with a to'e on top) whereas in Devanagri, it is the letter D (as in Dol/Daak) with a dot underneath.


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## Faylasoof

Jabir said:


> Hello!
> 
> I'm still not sure when to translate the English "the" into Urdu.
> 
> e.g.
> 
> _The treasury is beyond the hospital_; I'd translate as _Khazana hospital ke pare hai
> 
> _but
> 
> _The carriage was in front of my shop_; I'd translate as _Voh gaRi meri dukan ke samne thi
> 
> _and I have no idea if it is necessary in "The soldiers were outside the village"
> 
> Can someone please give me a light?
> 
> Thanks!


Like Latin, Sanskrit and Prakrit, Urdu and Hindi lack a definite article! When translating from Urdu to English one needs to _infer from the context_ if the English definite article ‘the’ is needed or not. The presence of ‘ek’ in Urdu and Hindi can imply either indefiniteness (a / an) or ‘one’, i.e. the number 1 – not the impersonal English word ‘one’ as in: one needs to do this! _On the other hand the absence of ‘ek’ doesn’t necessarily mean definiteness: _

_mere baagh meN aam kaa daraxt hai !_
_In my garden is *a* mango tree!_

The same as: _mere baagh meN *ek *aam kaa daraxt hai_

Both are possible, of course, but in the second you are making clear that there is one mango tree while in the first this idea is understood.

BTW, adding ‘_Sirf ek_ / _Sirf ek hi_i’ to the above you would emphasise that there is one and only one mango tree in your garden. 

For your other sentence, “The soldiers were outside the village", we’d say it like this:

_sipaahii gaa’oN ke baahar the_

Back-translaing this into English would be either:

_Soldiers were out side the village _


OR

_The soldiers were outside the village_


More context would be needed to know which of these two sentences (with or without the English definite article) is meant.


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