# To help or not to help?



## badgrammar

Hi, I am just wondering - lately I have seen a couple of posters asking for simple 1-line persoanl translations in the French forum.  I presume they don't speak any French at all, and simply need a quick favor.  In my mind, this is quite a long ways from asking for a "free translation service", and is certainly not the same as doing people's homework for them.  I have also asked for translations in other languages that I do not speak or don't speak very well, without providing my idea of what it means first.

So is it ok to help people in this way?  Or are we not supposed to give anyone a translation of anything if they have not tried to do it themselves first?

Thanks!


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## jester.

Maybe it wouldn't be too bad to allow simple and short translations of 1, 2 or 3 sentences but I see a certain problem arrising: Who can decide and how can be decided whether a text is short enough to be translated? I guess that would be quite difficult.

Another problem is that many people would take translations for granted and so there would be even more people who just want a quick favour, but I guess it would result in a chaos...


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## alc112

If you see a new user asking for a very long translation, is easy to find out he or she is just asking for that and won't enter to WR anymore.
You can't ask this people to do an attempt.
I have asked some questions in languages that I don't know in the forum and recieved answers. I guess one of the reasons is that forer@s see you are indeed a member of the forum and you say you don't know that language.
Anyway, nobody can oblige you to reply a post asking for a translation if you don't want to.


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## Etcetera

I totally agree with *alc112*. 
BTW, what does 'forero' mean? I've seen this word several times here, and I can't guess what it can mean...


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## emma42

forero and forera mean Forum members.  Some people also use forer@ as the plural.


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## Etcetera

Thanks. Does this word come from Spanish? It looks like so.


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## geve

emma42 said:
			
		

> forero and forera mean Forum members. Some people also use forer@ as the plural.


Not as the plural - as the "all gender inclusive"! The @ includes both A and O, so both feminine and masculine in Spanish. There's a thread somewhere telling the birth of the word, I'm sure someone will find it... (forer@s would be the plural, and forer@s was suggested by someone in the Fr-En forum, to include the potential visitors from other planets, in a thread where we had behaved very badly  )


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## badgrammar

Ok, I just answered a post that I thought was a reasonable request, but that another forero did not wish to answer until the person made an attempt at it. I am definitely against doing any translation longer than a few sentences, but I do understand people sometimes need small translations for personal reasons.  That's not a problem, and as Alc sys, you don't have to reply if you don't want to....


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## Etcetera

*geve*
You're cruel! 
Or is that a hint for me to start learn French?


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## geve

Now my post above was not really on-topic, but I find the question interesting. I have the feeling that the way the "no translation/no proofreading" rule is enforced really depends on the sub-forums. 

Yesterday I reported a thread that asked for a translation of a long text. Then I checked the profile of the poster and saw that (s)he had made several requests, each asking for translations and never giving an attempt. And the person says the sentences or texts are to be put on an educational website for language learners!!! I really don't understand. 

I've also noticed threads in other forums that would have been closed right away in the Fr-En (this one for instance would have been closed only because of its title)

On the contrary, on the Fr-En forum at least, some forer@s indicate that suggesting a translation for a small sentence (or even an idiom!) should not be done if the person doesn't give it a try first. I think this is a bit excessive, as I wrote in this other thread. Sometimes, you really have no idea how to translate a sentence, and it doesn't seem to go against ethics, pedagogy or the course of this forum, to provide assistance.
I think we should just rely on good sense and good faith for such matters.


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## Etcetera

I think it can be a good idea to give your own version of translation (however clumsy it may seem) ot at least part of your version, so people could see you tried to translate the sentence. One more advantage of such an approach is that people can see what causes the problem with translation and may give you additional advice. Isn't it so?


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## Jana337

As Geve said, we should employ common sense. Reasonably long translations into languages that the thread opener does not speak are not affected by our homework policy. For example, I asked our Hebrew speakers to translate a happy birthday message for me.

Some cases are not that obvious: If a newbie wants to have translated something that does not look like a school assignment, you will hardly be scolded by moderators for helping out. If you are not sure, wait for us - we can sometimes elicit a confession by PM. 

If it is not a new forer@ you don't know well, check their previous posts. Systematical abuses of the forum are not hard to detect. 

Jana


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## fenixpollo

I agree, Etc., but in the cases that Alc and geve mentioned, there are some posters who don't speak enough of the target language to even give it a try. 

I think that geve's idea is a good one: try to find out as much as you can about the poster and their motives.  If you doubt their integrity, pass it by -- there are so many other people who need help.  But if you don't have reason to doubt the poster, I say _HELP! _ That's why we're here, after all.


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## Joelline

Sometimes, it takes more than just common sense; it takes experience! I recently got taken in by a "professor" who was writing a letter of recommendation for one of his students (here). He asked for some proof-reading/correction help. As a professor, myself, and knowing how carefully I try to write my own letters of recommendation, I plunged in. I did notice that the professor had put his own nick in place of the student's name, but I thought he was simply preserving privacy! I probably spent over an hour with him as he then asked lots of questions about fine points. When I went back to see if he had any other questions, I found that a Mod had deleted the posts! I was dumbfounded. I PM'd the mod who told me that he suspected that this was a student writing his own "letter of recommendation" and that he (the Mod) would get back to me. Sure enough, the Mod elicited a "confession." 

I never even considered the possibility that I was being gullible! As the Mod said, however, sometimes only experience can take care of these problems! I can promise that I won't be taken in again: fool me once, shame on you! fool me twice, shame on me!


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## alc112

But:
won't you help a new member noticing this is his/her first post and you don't know where to find out how this person uses the forum?


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## Jana337

alc112 said:
			
		

> But:
> won't you help a new member noticing this is his/her first post and you don't know where to find out how this person uses the forum?


If we have no doubts, we will. 

Jana


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## panjandrum

geve said:
			
		

> [...] Yesterday I reported a thread that asked for a translation of a long text. Then I checked the profile of the poster and saw that (s)he had made several requests, each asking for translations and never giving an attempt. And the person says the sentences or texts are to be put on an educational website for language learners!!! I really don't understand. [...]


If I guess right, all of these threads have now been removed.
Sometimes it takes us a while to realise that something like this, across the forums, is going on.

We try to identify and remove inappropriate use of the forums.  Your participation helps enormously - and is very much appreciated.


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## geve

Thank you for your answer, Panj.  I understand that it is not possible to control everything that's going on in the forums.
What I don't understand is the people who post requests that are so obviously unethical, and then react so strongly when they're told off -well, I should probably take these pink glasses off and start seeing the world as it really is.  I don't understand either why members (senior members even) answer these requests... 

But that's not exactly what badgrammar had in mind... I have difficulties to express my thoughts on this, so I'll borrow this quote from another thread (sorry, Charlie!)


			
				charlie2 said:
			
		

> If we have to assume intentions, can we assume good intentions instead?


and be firm and steady when proved otherwise.

If there is a doubt, there's always a gentle way to inform the poster about the rules of this place.


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## french4beth

geve said:
			
		

> If there is a doubt, there's always a gentle way to inform the poster about the rules of this place.


I agree - although sometimes 'newbies' get offended (no matter how nicely you word it).
Then, today, someone asked for a clarification of an English phrase - I explained it in French, then the poster complained that it wasn't a word-for-word translation (after thanking me for my feedback  ).

Is there any way for mods/administrators to put some type of comment at the top of each page, reminding new users that the forums are not a free translation service?  I know that this info is in the FAQ's (which I read before using the forum, but that many people don't read apparently).

On the other hand, many times in the English-French forum, someone who doesn't speak the language wants a translation (for a piece of artwork, a store or product name, etc.) so I wouldn't want to scare visitors away...


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## alc112

A question to everyone:
Will you reply if, for example, I post a thread in the French forum asking for a transation of 5 lines, knowig that I am indeed a member (and I don't know french at all)?


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## Joelline

Maybe--if you said "pretty please" and put in a smilie!  

Seriously, you're a member with almost 2800 posts. I might be a little, tiny bit surprised that you couldn't understand any of it (given that you are a native of Spanish), but I probably wouldn't say this, and I'd do my best to help you!


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## fenixpollo

Two answers to your question, Al:
1) I have done this very thing myself -- post a French question without knowing any French -- and I was grateful to those that responded.
2) Normally, when I am in a similar situation, I PM a trusted forer@ who I think will be willing to help... so I don't put other people in the position of translating lines for me.  Of course, this depends on the generosity of another person, and the level of trust I have in them.  On the other hand, I hate being put in that same position when people I don't know, with only a few posts to their name, send me a PM asking me to help them.  Feel free to : rolleyes : at me, or to contribute to this thread.


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## geve

alc112 said:
			
		

> A question to everyone:
> Will you reply if, for example, I post a thread in the French forum asking for a transation of 5 lines, knowig that I am indeed a member (and I don't know french at all)?


How could we say no to the one who moderated WR forums all by himself for a whole day?  

Seriously, I would really like to say yes.
But considering how things are going lately (in the French forum at least), I'm not sure we would. 
As I've said before, I think that we might have become a tiny bit paranoid... 
We (as a group) still have to find a way to combine our optimistic naive good nature, with our newly acquired suspicious look.


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## Kelly B

As always, it depends on the context. If you said, for example, that my mother-in-law is very sick and her sister only speaks French, please help me with my letter, I bet you'd get some very good replies, either in public or by PM. (I wrote a letter like that, once upon a time.) It helps immensely to know why.

For a less dramatic example, we're pretty strict about proofreading in English-only, and I posted a notice about that in someone's request thread. But when the writer pointed out that it wasn't homework, and that he wasn't trying to impress an employer, but was just trying to make sure his communication was clear, I took the notice out and said it was fine.


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## Etcetera

I would answer, of course - if I knew French.


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## french4beth

alc112 said:
			
		

> A question to everyone:
> Will you reply if, for example, I post a thread in the French forum asking for a transation of 5 lines, knowig that I am indeed a member (and I don't know french at all)?


If you don't speak French, just indicate this when you post your thread - someone should be able to help you.  Or if you want to try it yourself, then you can ask for corrections.


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## alc112

Ok
YOu are so kind
So i'll look for a very difficult text in ancient French of 5 lines.
The question is how will I realise the text is very difficult and in ancient French? then, I'll have to ask in the forum.

Back to the topic:
So what everybody will consider is the honisty of the forer@ and th enumber of post.


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## french4beth

alc112 said:
			
		

> Back to the topic:
> So what everybody will consider is the honisty of the forer@ and th enumber of post.


If I see 5 posts in row, with 1 line of text, saying "Is this correct" without a specific question, I get suspicious...


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## natasha2000

french4beth said:
			
		

> If you don't speak French, just indicate this when you post your thread - someone should be able to help you. Or if you want to try it yourself, then you can ask for corrections.


 
Well, I did so, and got no answer. Luckily, I spotted that a forero from Spanish forum spoke also French, so I PM to him and he helped me.

And I DID have the translation...

I had a text of some four or five sentences, I had to translate to Spanish, but English text I had was a horrible translation from French. I had a French original, but as I don't speak French, I posted my Spanish translation from that horrible English and French original. I explained everything and I got no answer.
Then I contacted Spanish forero who was very kind and helped me at once.

I found this very dissapointing, considering that when I asked for help I wasn't so new in the forum and I had some hundreds of posts already, and I did explain the situation I was in... But nobody wanted to help. 
Nevertheless, I would, if I found a post like mine.


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## emma42

I find that very surprising Natasha.  I would have helped you.


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## natasha2000

emma42 said:
			
		

> I find that very surprising Natasha. I would have helped you.


 
Well, Emma, I found it surprising, too. I did not know the reason, but anyway, I did not have the time to think about why the people is behaving like this. As soon as I spotted the familiar name, I contacted it.

EDIT:  I posted it in French-Spanish Forum, so probably you never saw it, anyway...


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## Agnès E.

Are you talking about this thread, Natasha?

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=85703

You got a reply in less than 4 hours!!!


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## natasha2000

Agnès E. said:
			
		

> Are you talking about this thread, Natasha?
> 
> http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=85703
> 
> You got a reply in less than 4 hours!!!


 
Yes, because I looked for help.
I asked this good man to help me, but I insisted to be in the thread and not by PM.


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## Agnès E.

Just for your info: the Fr-Sp forum is definitely not as active as the Sp-En ones. Would you have waited some further hours (or just minutes), you should have got a reply! It is a normal respond time there. You should have a look at the other threads to get convinced about it. Besides, I have been unable to find one single thread left unreplied while I was looking for yours.

It is just a question of patience, not of bad intent from anyone towards you.


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## natasha2000

Agnès E. said:
			
		

> Just for your info: the Fr-Sp forum is definitely not as active as the Sp-En ones. Would you have waited some further hours (or just minutes), you should have got a reply! It is a normal respond time there. You should have a look at the other threads to get convinced about it. Besides, I have been unable to find one single thread left unreplied while I was looking for yours.
> 
> It is just a question of patience, not of bad intent from anyone towards you.


 
At that time, I really did not have time to think about the reasons why the foreros of French Spanish forum are not answering me, when in SpanishEnglish forum I usually get the answer almost immediately, and when I did not get any, it meant nobody knew the answer (since I have some in Sp-Eng. forum that stayed without any answer, and I don't complain)
Considering that I had given both original and my translation, and that the only thing it should be done is to have a quick look to check if everything is OK (since English text I had was terrible, and I wasn't sure I grasped the meaning of what the author really wanted to say), I did not understand why nobody answered me in 4 hours... And as I needed the texts checked, I asked for help. 
I am sorry if you find this offensive or whatever, but I couldn't wait no more. And for sure i did not mean that anybody has "bad intent" towards me, just that nobody was interesed enough to read it. That's all.

And Ampurdan was so nice to answer me immediately after I asked the help from him. Thanks Ampurdan.


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## Kelly B

There were 1374 people viewing General Vocabulario when I looked, but only 23 viewing Esp-Français. I'm very glad you found a way to get your answer; but with such different circumstances, you just cannot expect a reply as fast.


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## natasha2000

Kelly B said:
			
		

> There were 1374 people viewing General Vocabulario when I looked, but only 23 viewing Esp-Français. I'm very glad you found a way to get your answer; but with such different circumstances, you just cannot expect a reply as fast.


 
OK.
I didn't know it.
Sorry.


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