# to live as a tenant there for several years



## simurq

Hello there,

After a long pause, I've decided to resume my study of the Arabic but this time using a different approach. Instead of focusing on grammar and conversation books only, I'm trying to translate short passages (mostly the anecdotes about Nasreddin/Juha) into Arabic, which indeed helps me a lot to memorise new words and refresh the grammar part. I'm not sure about the sentence construction though...

Eg:
Original: "Once upon a time, Juha had to move from the city to a village and to live as a tenant there for several years."
Translation: "في يوم من الايام يجب أن ينتقل جحا من المدينة إلي قرية و يساكن فيها كمستأجر منذ عدة سنوات"

Thanks!

Vüqar


----------



## Mahaodeh

I would have imagined that Juha's stories are already in Arabic!! Well, good luck anyway.

في يوم من الايام يجب أن ينتقل جحا من المدينة إلي قرية و يساكن فيها كمستأجر منذ عدة سنوات
في أحد الأيام اضطر جحا إلى الانتقال من المدينة إلى قرية وأن يسكن فيها كمستأجر عدة سنوات

While في يوم من الأيام does mean 'one day' (although not once upon a time) but somehow, stylistically, it seems to me that it's better to use في أحد الأيام. Your option is also correct and understandable though, this is just a personal opinion.

On the other had, while يجب أن ينتقل technically means 'have to move', it does not men 'have to move' in the sense of 'he was forced to move'. I'm assuming this is what you are trying to say. Hence I would اضطرّ instead. Also, note that you need to have it in the past tense, not only because it happened in the past - but also because in the timing of the story itself it had already happened before the story started. You could say something like وَجَبَ على جحا أن ينتقل, but somehow it seems to me that it still does not give the required meaning although you did turn it into the past and it might work.

he verb 'live' is not يساكن, it's يسكن that literally means 'live in a certain place'. However, you can also use يعيش, a more generic word for 'live'. The problem here is whichever verb you choose: وجب أو اضطرّ, in both cases you can not use ينتقل ويسكن as verbs here. I'm not sure of the reason, I have a few guesses but I'm not confident enough to mention them, in both cases you need either to use al maSdar or أن المصدرية. Either way it's fine.

Last but not least, I don't see منذ having a place here. I mean, even in English, you said 'for several years' not 'since several years'. Now I think you may have added it because in English it starts with 'for', but in Arabic you don't need anything.


----------



## elroy

Maha, why did you drop “tenant”?


----------



## Mahaodeh

Oh, sorry, just a typo. There was nothing wrong with it so it seems my mind just skipped it!

I'll correct it.


----------



## Mahaodeh

Now that I corrected it, it occurred to me that it might be better to say: 

 في أحد الأيام اضطر جحا إلى الانتقال من المدينة إلى قرية وأن يسكن فيها عدة سنوات كمستأجر
or,
في أحد الأيام اضطر جحا إلى الانتقال من المدينة إلى قرية وأن يسكن فيها كمستأجر لعدة سنوات

I'm not sure why, just a gut feeling. I would appreciate if someone can tell me whether this feeling is justified or not.


----------



## jack_1313

Regarding the last part of the sentence, I'd prefer وأن يستأجر فيها as opposed to وأن يسكن فيها كمسأجر.


----------



## elroy

Maha, I agree with you about the word order, and Jack, I agree with you about the wording, but يستأجر needs an object.  Also, I think for the objects of "had to" we should use the same form in both cases - either a مصدر or أن المصدرية - but not one of each.

Thus, my suggestions are:

في أحد الأيام اضطر جحا إلى الانتقال من المدينة إلى قرية واستئجار فيها منزلٍ لعدة سنوات
أو
في أحد الأيام اضطر جحا أن ينتقل من المدينة إلى قرية وأن يستأجر فيها منزلاً لعدة سنوات

I prefer the second one because I think it flows better.


----------



## jack_1313

elroy said:


> يستأجر needs an object.



Are you sure that استأجر is exclusively transitive? I've seen it used without an object multiple times, most recently in a public figure's statement that لا يحق للمواطن أن يستأجر في وطنه، لأن السكن حق ليس هبة أو مكرمة. (I recognize that common usage doesn't necessarily dictate correctness.)


----------



## elroy

Hm, I think it’s like English.

1. Citizens do not have the right to rent in their own country. 
2. He had to move to a village and rent there for several years. 

1 sounds okay in a legal/formal context.  2 sounds odd in a casual/informal context.


----------



## Mahaodeh

jack_1313 said:


> Are you sure that استأجر is exclusively transitive?


Yes, at least in the meanings of 'rent' and 'hire'.


jack_1313 said:


> I recognize that common usage doesn't necessarily dictate correctness.


True, but in some cases you can accept that the object is محذوف.


elroy said:


> 1 sounds okay in a legal/formal context.


One of the reasons in which يجوز حذف المفعول به is generalising (التعميم), basically here in 1 it means 'rent anything' or 'rent everything', that's why it sounds O.K. It's not about a legal or formal context it's about a context where the object is "everything" or "anything", not a specific thing. It's the same as saying كُل واشرب حتى تشبع.


----------



## jack_1313

elroy said:


> 2. He had to move to a village and rent there for several years.
> ...
> 2 sounds odd in a casual/informal context.



I'm afraid I can't agree. For me, this sentence is 100% natural, just as natural as "I can't afford to rent in Such-and-Such city".

That said, the idea that we can don't need to include يستأجر's object in the Arabic sentence is not a hill I'm willing to die upon


----------



## cherine

elroy said:


> الانتقال من المدينة إلى قرية واستئجار فيها منزلٍ


Just a little correction:
واستئجار منزل فيها


----------



## simurq

Mahaodeh, elroy: thank you guys for detailed explanations!


mahaodeh said:


> The problem here is whichever verb you choose: وجب أو اضطرّ, in both cases you can not use ينتقل ويسكن as verbs here. I'm not sure of the reason, I have a few guesses but I'm not confident enough to mention them, in both cases you need either to use al maSdar or أن المصدرية. Either way it's fine.


Now when I re-read the sentence and your explanations, I wonder if it would be appropriate to use al maSdar throughout the sentence to make it more compliant with its narrative in the past tense. IOW, is it correct to say something like: في أحد الأيام *وجب *علي جحا *أن* *إنتقل *من المدينة إلى قرية و*أن* *سكن *فيها عدة سنوات كمستأجر ? Also, do I really need to use *أن *twice (shown in *green*)?

Thanks!


----------



## Mahaodeh

jack_1313 said:


> I'm afraid I can't agree. For me, this sentence is 100% natural, just as natural as "I can't afford to rent in Such-and-Such city".



I wouldn't use an English equivalent as proof, languages differ as I'm sure you know.
However, in both the English and the Arabic it's obvious from the context that what he is renting is a residence so omitting the object seems acceptable. I have to say thought that sometimes in Arabic even in dialects it's not clear that I have to ask 'rent what?'. If you need to ask that question it means the sentence is not complete and you need object.


----------



## jack_1313

simurq said:


> في أحد الأيام *وجب *علي جحا *أن* *إنتقل *من المدينة إلى قرية و*أن* *سكن *فيها عدة سنوات كمستأجر



In most situations, including this one, أنْ must be followed by a present tense, subjunctiveaccusative verb, even if we are referring to the past. So أن *ا*نتقل and أن سكن are definitely incorrect.

As for وجب *على* جحا, you're right in the fact that your use of the present tense يجب was one of the issues with your original sentence, which was supposed to be set in the past. يجب can be placed in the past tense, though I believe كان يجب (or كان على) is more common. But I fully agree with Maha's comment that اضطر إلى is a better choice here.


----------



## Mahaodeh

jack_1313 said:


> In most situations, including this one, أنْ must be followed by a present tense, accusative verb, even if the we are referring to the past. So أن *ا*نتقل and أن سكن are definitely incorrect.


I believe it's in ALL cases. أن المصدرية is ALWAYS followed by present tense.


simurq said:


> is it correct to say something like: في أحد الأيام *وجب *علي جحا *أن* *إنتقل *من المدينة إلى قرية و*أن* *سكن *فيها عدة سنوات كمستأجر ? Also, do I really need to use *أن *twice (shown in *green*)?


As Jack mentioned, it has to be the present tense. أن ينتقل means انتقال, that's why it's called أن المصدرية - because in conjunction with the present tense verb it gives the meaning of the masdar.
There are several cases in which أن is followed by a past tense, none of them work here. However, assuming it was the present tense, then you can repeat it (preferred) or not if it would be understood from the context.
في أحد الأيام وجب على جحا أن ينتقل من المدينة إلى قرية وأن يسكن فيها وأن يستأجر لعدة سنوات
في أحد الأيام وجب على جحا أن ينتقل إلى القرية ويسكن فيها ويستأجر لعدة سنوات
However, if you don't want to repeat أن why don't you just use the masdar:
في أحد الأيام وجب على جحا الانتقال من المدينة إلى القرية والسكن فيها والاستئجار لعدة سنوات


----------



## jack_1313

Mahaodeh said:


> I believe it's in ALL cases. أن المصدرية is ALWAYS followed by present tense.
> ...
> There are several cases in which أن is followed by a past tense





To be clear, I was referring to structures like ْبعد أن and ْمنذ أن, both of which are often followed by a past tense verb.


----------



## Mahaodeh

Oh, these did not occur to me


----------



## elroy

cherine said:


> Just a little correction:
> واستئجار منزل فيها


  Oops!  I originally had فيها at the end in both versions, but then changed the second one to أن يستأجر فيها منزلاً and, without thinking about it, changed the first one in the same way as well.  It's interesting that the changed word order works with the verb but not with the مصدر!


----------



## cherine

I think the rule is that the parts of an iDaafa should not be separated/split. This is why it works with the verb but not the noun.


----------

