# Persian:  be-donya به دنيا



## panjabigator

What does the prefix "be" mean in the term "be-donya?"  I found it on wikipedia.  I believe "donya" is world here, correct?



> Perso-Arabic Transliteration Gloss   تمام افراد بشر آزاد به دنیا می آیند و از لحاظ حیثیت و حقوق با هم برابرند, همه دارای عقل و وجدان می باشند و باید نسبت به یک دیگر با روح برادری رفتار کنند. Tamām-e afrād-e bashar āzād be-donyā miyāyand va az lehāż-e heis̱īyat-o hoqūq bāham barābarand. Hame dārā-ye ʿaql-o vejdān mībāshand va bāyad nesbat be-yekdīgar bā rūh-e barābarī raftār konand.


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## Bienvenidos

The "be" means "to" as in "to the world," coming to the world. Let me write this down on a piece of paper and connect the letters then I'll be able to help you more without having to stare at the screen. I don't know if it's just my computer but the text is coming up as letters of the alphabet (they aren't connected). Interesting text, though.


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## panjabigator

Try typing in, gulp, FARSI in wikipedia 

Look at the very bottom of the page.  Perhaps it will display properly there.


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## Bienvenidos

panjabigator said:


> Try typing in, gulp, FARSI in wikipedia
> 
> Look at the very bottom of the page.  Perhaps it will display properly there.



Oh don't worry.   You're so incredibly intelligent that frankly you can call Persian "Southeastern Dutchoindoitalian" and everyone will be okay with it.  

PS - I don't like Wikipedia much either, but let's save that for another day, jaja. The thing is even with language learning, you never know if a not-so-good spelling native writes something strange or if a secondary speaker writes something completely wrong . That's for another day, though.


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## MOST-WANTED

panjabigator said:


> What does the prefix "be" mean in the term "be-donya?"  I found it on wikipedia.  I believe "donya" is world here, correct?


Translation :
Every creature come independent (free)to this world. 


P.S
Free = not Captive.


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## Alijsh

panjabigator said:


> تمام افراد بشر آزاد *به دنیا می آیند*


*be donyâ âmadan* means "to be born" (literally: to come to world). It's a compound/phrasal verb. The sentence says "All human beings are born free"


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## MOST-WANTED

ِ
"come to the world" means to be born.


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## Abbassupreme

Zaayideh shodan is another way of saying "to be born," right?  What about "motevaled shodan?"


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## Derakhshan

Abbassupreme said:


> Zaayideh shodan is another way of saying "to be born," right?  What about "motevaled shodan?"


I also would like to know more. Is any phrase used in spoken Persian besides به دنیا آمدن?


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## fishcurl

Derakhshan said:


> I also would like to know more. Is any phrase used in spoken Persian besides به دنیا آمدن?



I'll try to list a few verbs here, just to show what is possible, but I think به دنیا آمدن is probably the most common verb when it comes to spoken Persian.

زادن = تولد یافتن = متولد شدن = زاییده شدن = to be born
از مادر زادن = to be born of (one's) mother
پا به جهان گذاشتن = to set foot in the world
قدم به این دنیا گذاشتن = to step into this world
چشم به جهان گشودن = to open (one's) eye to the world, to look upon the world


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## PersoLatin

fishcurl said:


> *زادن *= تولد یافتن = متولد شدن = زاییده شدن = to be born


isn't زادن not the same as زاییدن 'to give birth'?


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## fishcurl

PersoLatin said:


> isn't زادن not the same as زاییدن 'to give birth'?



It is both. Examples are:

گویند مرا چو *زاد* مادر 
پستان به دهن گرفتن آموخت
شب ها بر گاهواره ی من
بیدار نشست و خفتن آموخت
(ایرج میرزا)
In the verses above زادن is obviously a verb with a direct object (مرا).

خجسته فریدون ز مادر *بزاد*
جهان را یکی دیگر آمد نهاد
ببالید بر سان سرو سهی
همی تافت زو فرّ شاهنشهی
(فردوسی)
As you can see, the poet Ferdowsi chose to use the verb as an intransitive one.

There is a second intransitive form of the verb, زاده شدن, which gives more weight to the verb زادن being transitive. E.g.,
من به هیأت ما *زاده شدم*
به هیأت پرشکوه انسان
تا در بهار گیاه
به تماشای رنگین کمان پروانه بنشینم
غرور کوه را دریابم
و هیبت دریا را بشنوم
(الف. بامداد)


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## PersoLatin

Thank you.

I think we agree the first example (چو *زاد* مادر)  means 'give birth to'. The third one I have no problems with as شدن always operates in that way, غذا خوردم and غذا خورده شد.

In the second, Ferdôsi has used از مادر زادن - born from mother, to mean 'he was born'. I think using بزاد suggests he was thinking of از مادر زاده شدن, because if you replace it with زاد, it changes it completely.

Poetic Licenses should be declared invalid.


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## fishcurl

PersoLatin said:


> In the second, Ferdôsi has used از مادر زادن - born from mother, to mean 'he was born'. I think using بزاد suggests he was thinking of از مادر زاده شدن, because if you replace it with زاد, it changes it completely.
> 
> Poetic Licenses should be declared invalid.



I realize the present-day tendency is to dismiss 'از مادر زاد' in favour of 'از مادر زاده شد', and to feel that one single line of poetry is no proof that زادن can mean 'to be born'. I'm also aware that to use the passive voice just sounds more correct these days. Still, I am sure you agree that some verbs are both transitive and intransitive. For instance, think about 'شیشه شکست'. Do you automatically transform it in your mind to 'شیشه شکسته شد', or do you just accept that 'شکست' is being used as an intransitive verb in the sentence? 

For my part, I concede that زادن in the sense of 'being born' is more literary than colloquial, but that is a different point. And I do have a feeling that an Internet search may be of help here, in the sense that we may see more examples out there and then won't just have to take Ferdowsi's word for it.


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## PersoLatin

fishcurl said:


> For instance, think about 'شیشه شکست'. Do you automatically transform it in your mind to 'شیشه شکسته شد', or do you just accept that 'شکست' is being used as an intransitive verb in the sentence?


If we look at this in a different way, if I said ‏شکننده, what would you consider this to mean, 'something that breaks something else' like a hammer or 'something that is capable of being broken' like glass? The answer is surely both.

However that doesn't apply برنده/barandé which means taker/winner but not 'the taken/winnings' or خزنده/xazandé or شنونده/ŝenavandé. The same applies to زادن, as زا ینده, its _present participle_, can only be the person who 'gives birth' and not what is born.


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## Derakhshan

For some reason I had thought the transitive form of شکستن was شکاندن (the آن making it transitive), but the latter is apparently only used colloquially? And is it strictly transitive unlike شکستن?


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## PersoLatin

Derakhshan said:


> For some reason I had thought the transitive form of شکستن was شکاندن


Can verbs have a transitive and an intransitive form? Maybe you mean 'causative'.


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## fishcurl

PersoLatin said:


> If we look at this in a different way, if I said ‏شکننده, what would you consider this to mean, 'something that breaks something else' like a hammer or 'something that is capable of being broken' like glass? The answer is surely both.
> 
> However that doesn't apply برنده/barandé which means taker/winner but not 'the taken/winnings' or خزنده/xazandé or شنونده/ŝenavandé. The same applies to زادن, as زا ینده, its _present participle_, can only be the person who 'gives birth' and not what is born.



The word زاینده is indeed the participle derived from the verb زاییدن. So is the word میرنده, which is derived from the verb مردن; it doesn't mean an agent other than the person who dies is involved.


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## Derakhshan

PersoLatin said:


> Can verbs have a transitive and an intransitive form? Maybe you mean 'causative'.


Yeah, I mean causative, my bad.

It looks like شکاندن should be the causative of شکستن.

It's true in the case of نشستن, which has the causative نشاندن. And نشستن is strictly non-causative.

So it possible شکستن was similarly non-causative originally?


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## PersoLatin

Derakhshan said:


> It looks like شکاندن should be the causative of شکستن.


شکستن doesn't have a causative form in use, anyway if it did, it should be شکناندن. As you said before, شکاندن, also شکوندن شیکوندن, are the colloquial forms of شکستن.

I don't believe the 's' in _ŝeka*s*tan_ is etymological, maybe the original was _ŝekandan_, as its present stem is _ŝekan_, we need an expert's input here.


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