# Italian bella figura: appearance over substance



## moodywop

By a great coincidence(?) an American forero told me about this book review in the _New York Times:_

*An Insider Explains Italy, Land of Cheery Dysfunction (link)*

right after a thread I started on the sad state of Italian education (and, more specifically, language teaching) proved unpopular with some of my fellow Italians.

Could this be yet another manifestation of the Italian obsession with:


> ...a fatal weakness for beauty and surface appeal, “la bella figura.” Italians, in other words, would just as soon look good as be good


Oh we do "facciamo una bella figura" (impress superficially) most of the time. 
I'm always amazed at the different attitude towards Italy of foreigners who only spend a few days or weeks here on holiday vs foreigners who get married and settle down here.
The former wax lyrical over the art, scenery, food, climate etc, asking me with a dismayed look on their faces how I could possibly have left this heaven on earth to spend ten years in England.
The latter soon see past the facade when they have to start struggling with Italian bureaucracy (it took me a full year to prove to the local police that I had moved from one street to another: they're supposed to find you at home when they turn up for an unannounced inspection!), inefficiency, lack of response from the authorities if you report a problem (in my case, gangs selling drugs outside a school) and the various other dysfunctions we're plagued with.


> The country suffers from an ethics deficit, most clearly visible in the attitude toward taxes. Lying outrageously about one’s income is considered normal.
> One in three Italians finds a job through a relative


Luckily very few Italians venture to Cultural Discussions (since our pathetic school system - despite at least eight years of compulsory English teaching - can't teach kids even to hold a simple conversation), otherwise I'd be flooded with accusations of "far fare brutta figura all'Italia" (casting Italy in a bad light).

No collection of garbage for days: the mafia-controlled garbage disposal companies are creating problems. No worries! I'll put on my best designer shirt, trousers and shoes, pick up my flashy cellphone and stride past the stench pretending it's a flowery bouquet - I won't let anything stand in the way of my bella figura as I go for my passeggiata
I'll wave a cheery hello to the eight traffic wardens who are leaning against their cars, smoking and sipping coffe, taking a well-deserved two-hour break after  during a long day's work, while I can barely walk through the illegally parked cars.

On a more serious note, how do forer@s who know Italy view the opinions expressed in the interview with the Italian author (a highly-regarded journalist working for the Turin daily "La Stampa") about the Italian obsession/coping strategy etc known as "bella figura"? Many of the foreign writers who have devoted books and essays to the "Italian character" have mentioned "bella figura".
How do you reconcile the gap between the Italy we all love and the dysfunctional reality we natives have to live with but that not all visitors are aware of?

As an Italian, however charming the "bella figura" attitude may appear, I feel that it also gets in the way of confronting and dealing with issues that have festered for decades - sometimes for much longer.


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## lsp

> How do you reconcile the gap between the Italy we all love and the dysfunctional reality we natives have to live with but that not all visitors are aware of?


It’s true, in my experience. My friend rang my doorbell to pick me up to run an errand (standing in line for hours to pay a bill at the post office) and saw me in my tracksuit and sneakers and made me change. “When you walk out this door no one knows you’re only going to the post office.” My introduction to La Bella Figura! Through connections and some cash I obtained my permesso di soggiorno, also authorizing me to work. My employer paid me “nero” anyway. I walked across the city on my first day of work because the buses were on strike until noon. Some days the neighborhood stank because the trash collectors were on strike. Until I got to know my neighbors, my very provincial alimentarista remarked almost every time he saw me, “Ma tu non sei italiana…” and then gave me the cheaper prosciutto and charged me full price thinking I wouldn’t know the difference. My flowers from the flower market on Tuesdays were always dead by Wednesday, unless my Italian friends came with me. Ex-pats always had to check their bills in restaurants. And if you had waved a wad of cash in her face, you couldn’t keep a shopkeeper from closing at quitting time. 

I was never before, nor have I been since, as patriotic about America as I was after living for several years (several years ago) in Rome. Growing up in NY, I became accustomed to all mail, even postcards and junk, arriving in 2 days (and still complaining about it). I paid my bills by checks I dropped in the mail. I transferred my telephone number to an apartment in an adjacent town and made sure it was installed 2 days before I was to move. Lanes and traffic lights represented rules, not suggestions, and everyone – more or less – played by them. We accepted people of all colors and accents and religions without a second thought. 

But make no mistake - I loved Italy then and I love it now. Even on my worst days I knew how fortunate I was to be able to be there. Yes, I too “wax lyrical over the art, scenery, food, climate, etc.” La Bella Figura has a very positive side. The city is beautiful, the country is beautiful, the people are beautiful. Everyone was generous, thrilled to show me the secrets of their towns and cities, to order a specialty of the season for me not on the menu in restaurants. Old is not a dirty word, whether it be grandparents or ruins. Food is fresh and delicious, the weather magnificent, the pace (for me, after NY) frenetic but still comparatively relaxed. Coming from the most famous of melting pots, the _sameness_ of knowing something about a busload of strangers intrigued me. In NY the person on your left or right on a bus may not speak a word of your language, may have taken a religious oath swearing off your favorite foods, they may have all kinds of alternative family structures, may never have traveled more than 10 miles from the street your bus is on… in Rome on the other hand, there was a good chance that you and your stranger speak Italian, were raised in the same religion, share a love of pasta, would never drink milk with or after dinner, and are adamant that a colpo d’aria from an open bus window can kill you! You share an obsession with your fegato, won’t eat dinner before 8:00, have at least one moka at home, and think your own mother’s aglio e olio is the best in the country. Italians may love to dwell on appearances, but at least _se ne intendono e come!_ The NY version of that obsession translated into the torturous, inconvenient unattractive rule that women need pantyhose in 90° weather to be “professional.” The acceptance however reluctant that i mezzi pubblici non funzionano is actually quite liberating, if you allow yourself not to get crazy. Those traffic wardens? They may be leaning against their cars, smoking and sipping coffee, taking a well-deserved two-hour break after during a long day's work, but so was I - on occasion!

This is my long-winded way of saying that nothing is perfect. When I was there I missed here, while I’m here I miss there. Italy’s contradictions balance out in time, as do my country’s. I hardly have to list what’s wrong with the USA, there’s plenty of material even here at WR enumerating our faults. I’m just glad to have both, and to practice my language skills so that I can always maintain a special connection and my smug, proprietary sense that I’m not just another tourist who visited Italy and went home with some stories and photos.


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## Victoria32

moodywop said:


> By a great coincidence(?) an American forero told me about this book review in the _New York Times:_
> 
> *An Insider Explains Italy, Land of Cheery Dysfunction (link)*
> 
> right after a thread I started on the sad state of Italian education (and, more specifically, language teaching) proved unpopular with some of my fellow Italians.
> 
> Could this be yet another manifestation of the Italian obsession with:
> 
> Oh we do "facciamo una bella figura" (impress superficially) most of the time.
> I'm always amazed at the different attitude towards Italy of foreigners who only spend a few days or weeks here on holiday vs foreigners who get married and settle down here.
> The former wax lyrical over the art, scenery, food, climate etc, asking me with a dismayed look on their faces how I could possibly have left this heaven on earth to spend ten years in England.
> The latter soon see past the facade when they have to start struggling with Italian bureaucracy (it took me a full year to prove to the local police that I had moved from one street to another: they're supposed to find you at home when they turn up for an unannounced inspection!), inefficiency, lack of response from the authorities if you report a problem (in my case, gangs selling drugs outside a school) and the various other dysfunctions we're plagued with.
> 
> Luckily very few Italians venture to Cultural Discussions (since our pathetic school system - despite at least eight years of compulsory English teaching - can't teach kids even to hold a simple conversation), otherwise I'd be flooded with accusations of "far fare brutta figura all'Italia" (casting Italy in a bad light).
> 
> No collection of garbage for days: the mafia-controlled garbage disposal companies are creating problems. No worries! I'll put on my best designer shirt, trousers and shoes, pick up my flashy cellphone and stride past the stench pretending it's a flowery bouquet - I won't let anything stand in the way of my bella figura as I go for my passeggiata
> I'll wave a cheery hello to the eight traffic wardens who are leaning against their cars, smoking and sipping coffe, taking a well-deserved two-hour break after  during a long day's work, while I can barely walk through the illegally parked cars.
> 
> On a more serious note, how do forer@s who know Italy view the opinions expressed in the interview with the Italian author (a highly-regarded journalist working for the Turin daily "La Stampa") about the Italian obsession/coping strategy etc known as "bella figura"? Many of the foreign writers who have devoted books and essays to the "Italian character" have mentioned "bella figura".
> How do you reconcile the gap between the Italy we all love and the dysfunctional reality we natives have to live with but that not all visitors are aware of?
> 
> As an Italian, however charming the "bella figura" attitude may appear, I feel that it also gets in the way of confronting and dealing with issues that have festered for decades - sometimes for much longer.


Ciao Moodywop, 
I have yet to have the privilege of visiting Italy (my goal for 2007 or '08) and never intended to go, until my former student waxed lyrical about it - wonderful beaches, architecture, art ecc... Only after I had known him a while, did he mention a wrecked economy and other less than ideal manifestations - and he was very _distrait_ about the number of people (Italian genius he said angrily) , leaving the country to live elsewhere... which wave of emigration of course included him! 
He made an impassioned speech about it all one day (so that was the end of the English lesson!) and I suggested he go home and enter politics. Yes, when he had got rich, he said, and so one day you may know his name but I think he would not on reflection improve matters all that much, being an exponent of the bella figura attitude himself! 
On one thing we were agreed, Signor Berlusconi... il buffone, he called him.
If the beaches prove to be all he said, I shall be delighted but I plan to stay and work for a while (EU citizen) providing the bureaucracy permits, so I shall perhaps have the chance to see the sort of thing you're talking about.


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## moodywop

Lsp said:
			
		

> When I was there I missed here, while I’m here I miss there


I felt exactly the same - travelling between Italy and the UK.


> Italy’s contradictions balance out in time,


I hope so - for the new generations. I don't think I'll live to see any major change. The member of parliament Berlusconi got elected for my area is a pretty girl who cavorts in sexy clothes on his TV channels. She can't put two sentences together. She won by a landslide majority.

The maddening thing is: we're admired for our ingenuity and creativity in design and fashion.* Why can't we apply that same creativity in modernizing our bureaucracy, education etc?*
It took our inept politicians decades to get rid of obscene laws like the one reducing a sentence for murder to a few years if it was a "delitto d'onore" (a crime aimed at safeguarding your honour - usually a man walking in on his wife and her lover and shooting them both). We still have ridiculous fascist laws on our statutes. They're too busy squabbling or hunting for votes to even bother deleting a few laws.


> Through *connections and some cash* I obtained my permesso di soggiorno, also authorizing me to work. My employer paid me *“nero”* anyway.


Maybe we should explain that "in nero" means you were paid cash in hand, that you had no insurance or protection in case of an accident at work.
Just a few years ago some friends from Birmingham sent their two public-school educated daughters (both fluent in Italian - they had done "A" levels in the language) to my town. They had contacted the best local hotel, which had offered them jobs as waitresses (no Italian from even a middle-class family could bear the thought of their kids working in a hotel in the summer - che brutta figura!). 
I drove the two poor girls all over town, being bounced from office to office. I even used a few "connections". It took MONTHS to get a EU work permit. By that time the jobs were gone and they ended up working *illegally* in a bar.
When I moved in England back in 1976 I got my permit in the post in a few days. And yet Britain had joined the EU only recently.

A few years ago Peter Arnett, the CNN reporter who was the only one left in Baghdad during the war, visited our Press Association. I volunteered to act as interpreter *for free*. They hired the daughter of a local politician, who had just graduated in English. A few minutes into the debate, Igor Mann (our top Middle East specialist) told the girl she was not up to the task and took over.

A recent article in TIME magazine on the "brain drain" from Europe interviewed two Italian reserachers at Stanford. They said they hoped they could stay in the US. Their professor in Rome (who had total control over their future careers) had blackmailed them into adding his son's name to their publications. The powerful professor never sued for slander.

I am genuinely curious: are people in other countries aware of the situation in Italy?


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## MonsieurAquilone

I have some notions about employment problems and asylum seekers but that's because I am a europhile!!!


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## TrentinaNE

Have you heard the joke about differences in legal systems in Europe?
In England, everything is permitted, unless it's prohibited.
In Germany, everything is prohibited, unless it's permitted.
In Romania, everything is prohibited, even if it's permitted.
In Italy, everything is permitted, _especially_ if it's prohibited.
A joke, or reality?  My personal experience with how things work in Italy is limited to the Trentino region, where I have relatives.  People seem to be more respectful of rules in general up there, but perhaps I'm naive. I did notice that my cousins were very carfeul drivers, but then those roads in the Dolomites demand extreme care and attention, otherwise you'll end up dead!

Trentino is an autonomous province in the north that seems to be economically more robust that many other areas.  It also has the advantage that a very large proportion of the taxes paid to the central government come back to the region to support local projects.  On the one hand, this results in some stunning historical/cultural achievements, like the recent excavation of two city blocks of the ancient Roman city _Tridentum_ under current-day Trento.  An absolutely fascinating project and very well presented, as was the archeology museum in Bolzano (in Alto-Adige) which houses the remains of Utzi, aka the Ice-Man, along with many other informative, well-researched exhibits.

On the other hand, there is an almost insufferable snobbery about their "cultural standards."  You say you want to buy a few inexpensive souvenirs to bring home to your friends?  Sorry, but we'll make you search all over _il centro_ for the one shop that sells authentic (and expensive) handicrafts, and we won't let you leave the store with your purchases until we've wrapped each item in elaborate paper, even though you've asked us twice not to do so because you're travelling overseas and wrapped parcels are not permitted in airline suitcases.    But that paper and those little boxes sure were purty to have when I arrived home.    And the food, mamma mia, the food everywhere was fantastic.  

After visiting last year for a special family celebration, the idea of retiring among my parenti has crept into my thoughts on occasion.  But I think my mom has it right: visits are fine, but living there all the time would probably drive us crazy!


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## TimLA

I'm one of those delusionals with a romantic (pun intented) sense of Italy, since I only spend a short period of time there every year. But during my more lucid moments, I have heard of and have personally experienced situations as mentioned by many of you.

I have American friends who have lived in Rome for over 40 years. They are absolutely fluent in Italian and have adopted the culture (mostly) as anyone might. The mother describes sitations at her son's school in which she was noted to be the "American" mother, the "casual" mother - because she didn't dress to the nines. Being so close to Hollywood, that doesn't bother me too much - as long as important decisions aren't made about a person based on the way they look.

With respect to the bureaucracy, I've heard those problems over and over, and perhaps seen it on a lower scale. Someone has to "stamp" everything and along with it, goes a cost. Often there is no "easy" way, unless a local capitalist is involved. I'm told that the city of Massa has over 600 government employees in a local building, when perhaps only 50 are necessary - I suppose each one has to justify their existence.

What drives me nuts are the strikes. Whenever I buy a train ticket, the end of my first sentence always includes the word "sciopero?". Taxi strikes are even more frustrating since keeping a car and driving in Rome is beyond difficult. And air traffic controller strikes? How can a small group of people shut down a whole country? Most of us Yanks remember what happened here in the 80's - it will *never* happen again.

More disconcerting though, is the concept of "connections". I'm told that most things in Italy occur through "connections" - who knows whom. Italian friends in American love it here because they can achieve "on their own" - hard work. Some Italian female friends have come and stayed in America because of what they describe as "sexism" that doesn't allow them to advance as far as they might here. We've had more than one research fellow from Italy in tears after his or her year here. They describe the freedom of thought and the different relationships among workers and researchers here compared to their relationship with "il professore" in Italy.

But I believe the more important question to be answered, as alluded to by Carlo, is why does this bella, intelligent, creative group of people called "Italians" allow this to happen?

1. Does the governmental change every few months (until recently) inhibit efficiency?
2. Can "user-friendly" be translated into Italian?
3. Why has the hierarchical system been maintained in such an advanced country in so many facets of life?

So Carlo, what's the answer?

I'll maintain my delusional state for now, and continue to visit as often as I can - but maybe just for short periods of time...


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## TrentinaNE

Has any of you seen the marvelous movie La Meglio Gioventù? In the first half-hour or so, a student who is taking his year-end oral exams at university is told by his professor to leave Italy if he wants to make anything of his life. I don't recall the exact message (I'll have to pull out my DVDs this weekend  ), but he echoed many of the sentiments expressed here.

I strongly recommend this movie to Italo-philes. Mi ha impressionata profondamente.  

Elisabetta


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## moodywop

TimLA said:
			
		

> But I believe the more important question to be answered, as alluded to by Carlo, is why does this bella, intelligent, creative group of people called "Italians" allow this to happen?
> 
> 1. Does the governmental change every few months (until recently) inhibit efficiency?
> 2. Can "user-friendly" be translated into Italian?
> 3. Why has the hierarchical system been maintained in such an advanced country in so many facets of life?
> 
> So Carlo, what's the answer?


 
Tim

Let me start with a strange reaction I got when I opened this thread. Some non-Italian forer@s contacted me asking me to re-consider. My topic was too controversial. My words were too strong. I must admit to being flabbergasted. Extremely biased, strong words have been written about the US (by non-Americans) in this forum. Why should I, an Italian, not be entitled to tell the truth about my country? The Italian reporter's book has been published in Italy and abroad. He hasn't been lynched. Or is it because Italians are deemed not to be mature enough to discuss the problems of their country dispassionately?

As it turns out, the fears proved unfounded. As I expected, not a single Italian has posted, though I PMed a few inviting them to do so.

I would add that we have a long tradition of mostly isolated figures in our history denouncing some aspects of the Italian character. Dante criticised our factionalism almost 700 years ago. He died in exile (not before sticking some of the factional leaders - and a corrupt Pope - in the worst places in Hell in his _Divine Comedy _)_._ Leopardi was another stern critic. Our great, late writer Montanelli, with whom the author of the book worked, continued this tradition in the postwar period. Severgnini is part of this tradition of lone figures telling fellow Italians a few home truths.

In the best-known English-language book explaining Italy and Italians to foreigners, _The Italians(1964), _Luigi Barzini already mentioned "the coexistence of two Italies": "Why did Italy, a land notoriously teeming with vigorous, wide-awake, and intelligent people, always behave so feebly?".

If he couldn't answer the question I certainly can't. Historians have cited our long history of disunity, our individualism at the expense of the greater good etc

Barzini's words echo Severgnini's:

"Polite lies and flattery can be utilitarian on occasion but. most of the time, must be honestly classified among the devices disinterestedly designed to make life decorous and agreeable. They are the lubricants that make life decorous and agreeable...It is so common in Italy as to go practically unnoticed"

The Italian peculiarity is reflected in language. A "lettera di raccomandazione" is *not *a letter of recommendation. It is written by a powerful man to solicit a job for a relative or political supporter. When we see someone who clearly isn't up to his job (from a professor to a doctor to a bank clerk) we wink and go:_ un altro "raccomandato"._ Nobody objects or complains, though. Our son or daughter may need a "raccomandazione" soon. It's a perverse vicious circle.

The amazing thing is that this practice knows no regional boundaries. Forget about North/Centre/South divisions. I myself was shocked when the huge Tangentopoli scandal broke in Milan. Politicians were making money even on the backs of dead people. Hospital administrators would only help funeral directors who paid "tangenti" (bribes). Huge accounts were discovered in offshore banks.

Has everyone forgotten that our most popular postwar Prime Minister, from Milan, died a fugitive in his luxury villa abroad while under trial for corruption?
Italians loved him. He had restored Italian honour. How? He refused to hand over to the US government the Palestinian terrorists who had taken control of a cruise ship and thrown overboard an American citizen in a wheelchair just because he had a Jewish surname:

"While 69-year-old disabled Leon Klinghoffer sat in his wheelchair aboard the Achille Lauro cruise ship on October 7, 1985, four Palestinian terrorists shot and threw him overboard as his wife watched in horror. Leon and Marilyn Klinghoffer, American Jews, had been celebrating their wedding anniversary by taking this cruise.
[After the leader was apprehended] insisting upon jurisdiction, the Italian government immediately sent Mohammed Abul Abbas, the mastermind of the hijacking to Yugoslavia for safety" [link]

I'm filled with anger and shame while writing this.

And there are still many Italians claiming he was a great politician. Machiavelli would have agreed.

Historians put part of the blame for our corrupt system of government on the decades after the war, when a single party (with a few weak allies), the Christian Democrats, ruled unchallenged, using corruption to stay in power. The Communist Party, in my view, shares that blame for preventing changes in government because it clung to its ideology - only turning into a social democratic party relatively recently:

"The DC [Democrazia Cristiana], because it was always in government and because it tended to be a party which actively encouraged the expansion of the public sector, had also at its disposal a vast array of jobs which it could offer to those who were politically reliable. Thus through professional and trade associations and a clientelistic system of patronage, the DC developed a formidable machine thanks to which it could maintain its hold on the country"
(D Sassoon _Contemporary Italy_ Longman)


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## maxiogee

There is an expression here in Ireland which seems to wrap up the sentiment Moodywop expresses in beautiful Italian. Ours is coarse and crude, but to the point.

*She's all fur coat and no knickers* was an expression I heard from my mother's mouth when I was very young and Ireland was a poorer country than it is today. The idea that someone would spend money on appearances whilst neglecting the essentials was striking — but there are those to whom such a concept is not strange. 

There was a huge irony in my mother speaking like this of someone. She thought nothing of admonishing us children with the phrase "What will the neighbours think?"

The notion that the neighbours need to be considered, or even propitiated, is one I railed against then and still do today. There are three reasons for this…
a) Who cares what the neighbours think?
b) What makes you think that they think of us anyway? The hubris!
c) The neighbours do worse things!

My life is not ruled by what the neighbours think, but by my considering the feelings and sensitivities of people I care about. Thoughts of the propriety of my neighbours' actions rarely gives me a moment's worry, if mine causes them sleepless nights then (a) that is their problem, and (b) they have only to speak to me and I'm sure we can resolve the issue.


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## cirrus

Carlo in reply to your question do people know about this side of Italy certainly it is an open secret in the UK for anyone with eyes open to see.  Berlusconi's finely honed ambassadorial tact and savviness for example in the European Parliament was a particularly good advert for this.  What amazed us was that he only just lost the last election.


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## Victoria32

maxiogee said:


> There is an expression here in Ireland which seems to wrap up the sentiment Moodywop expresses in beautiful Italian. Ours is coarse and crude, but to the point.
> 
> *She's all fur coat and no knickers* was an expression I heard from my mother's mouth when I was very young and Ireland was a poorer country than it is today. The idea that someone would spend money on appearances whilst neglecting the essentials was striking — but there are those to whom such a concept is not strange.


My mother used to use that saying, maxiogee... 
Moodywop, I am amazed at Berlusconi... what explains that man?


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## TrentinaNE

cirrus said:


> What amazed us was that he only just lost the last election.


And his narrow defeat was due to the overwhelming percentage of _italiani all'estero_ (Italians living abroad) who voted for Prodi! 

Elisabetta


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## Outsider

TimLA said:


> More disconcerting though, is the concept of "connections". I'm told that most things in Italy occur through "connections" - who knows whom. Italian friends in American love it here because they can achieve "on their own" - hard work. [...]
> 
> 3. Why has the hierarchical system been maintained in such an advanced country in so many facets of life?


I think you're asking the wrong question. You should ask instead "How did the U.S. (and _very few_ other nations) manage to escape the grip of burocracy and connections to the extent that they have?"

On a global scale, I think what you describe is the rule, not the exception. I've often wondered if this has anything to do with the fact that the U.S. are the oldest modern democracy, and one of the oldest capitalist nations in the world.


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## moodywop

Outsider said:


> I think you're asking the wrong question. You should ask instead "How did the U.S. (and _very few_ other nations) manage to escape the grip of burocracy and connections to the extent that they have?"
> 
> On a global scale, I think what you describe is the rule, not the exception. I've often wondered if this has anything to do with the fact that the U.S. are the oldest modern democracy, and one of the oldest capitalist nations in the world.


 
I don't agree, Outsider. Is the constant recourse to connections as wide as in Italy in almost all countries, as you suggest? 


> the U.S. (and _*very few*_ other nations)


 
In Italy professors pick future professors. One of them explained to me how it works. There is a committee of professors examining prospective professors. There is a complicated system of _do ut des_ whereby the right candidate (ie the one sponsored by the professor for whom he worked like a slave for years) is invariably picked. Even the brightest candidate will get nowhere unless he's sponsored by what we call a _barone accademico._ You will find this sense of "barone" in all dictionaries. It says it all - a feudal system.

Our most eminent language scholar, Giulio Lepschy, left in disgust *in 1963*, to take up a post at the University of Reading. He never came back to Italy. He is now Professor Emeritus at Reading and Honorary Professor at University College, London. link link
Italian students were deprived of a brilliant teacher. *43 *years later, researchers are still leaving.

The consequences for academic standards and the quality of reserach are disastrous. The best brains emigrate. Many Italians go to France or Belgium to be treated for cancer.


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## ladybird

> Let me start with a strange reaction I got when I opened this thread. Some non-Italian forer@s contacted me asking me to re-consider. My topic was too controversial. My words were too strong. I must admit to being flabbergasted. Extremely biased, strong words have been written about the US (by non-Americans) in this forum. Why should I, an Italian, not be entitled to tell the truth about my country? The Italian reporter's book has been published in Italy and abroad. He hasn't been lynched. Or is it because Italians are deemed not to be mature enough to discuss the problems of their country dispassionately?


 
Carlo

I know practically nothing about the seemingly corrupt political system in Italy and I am reading this thread with a sense of despair and disbelief. Obviously, having never even been there I'm not really in a position to comment but I can't understand why the Italian people are willing to put up with all this crap. (Oops, sorry, bad word).

I look through all the forums with interest and I'm not sure why this thread is deemed to be so controversial, again, in comparison with others that I have read recently I certainly don't feel that your words are too strong.

The thing I can't understand is where are the Italian forer@s, surely they would want to comment on what you have written. As you said when you replied to one of my posts recently "debate is good ", I agree with that 100%.

Thanks for opening this thread, really informative.

Regards, ladybird.


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## dalila

Well, Italy has a lot of problems and maybe we are good in hiding them. I don't know if it's Italian politics or Italian bureaucracy which don't work... so what about Italian legal system or Italian school? The fact is that the system of "raccomandazioni" is too widespread (you can find "raccomandati" everywhere), so there are a lot of incompetent people who don' t know how to do their work. When you enter a public office, half of the staff is doing nothing, a third is not able to give you the information you need and only the remaining people are doing their job. I'm not happy to say these things because I'm Italian and would like to say something more positive. Do we want to talk about appearance/hypocrisy? If you go to the post office wearing your sweatsuit just because you want to feel comfortable, you will be treated as a criminal (or something like that), even if you are the richest person in this world! This is a typical behaviour: appearance is most important than substance. I'm conscious of the problems of my country but all I can do is not to follow the herd.


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## moodywop

ladybird said:
			
		

> I can't understand why the Italian people are willing to put up with all this crap


 
Actually, ladybird, you bring up an interesting point. Many writers over the centuries (Goethe, for example, wrote some very perceptive comments on Italians) have remarked on the Italian attitude of "resigned fatalism". This was said to be particularly true of the South. The reason historians often give is the centuries of foreign rule. In the South the masses of subsistence peasants were for centuries oppressed and exploited by feudal landlords. This situation persisted till after WW2.

This philosophy of life is reflected in many sayings:

*Tiriamo a campare* = what matters is staying alive, everything else is secondary

*E' finita a tarallucci e vino* = two people fight over principles but then compromise, forget about principles, and dip _tarallucci _(a kind of biscuits) in some wine together
(this is also used to refer to a major investigation of, say, corruption, ending with everyone being pardoned, as happened recently, when Berlusconi and the present government made a deal)

(Neapolitan) *Cà s' more* = we all die eventually, i.e. every problem, however major, pales in comparison to death - so let's not make such a big fuss over.....

(Neapolitan) *Adda passà 'a nuttata* = the night will pass eventually i.e. bad things can't last forever

These sayings say it all, don't they?


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## moodywop

dalila said:


> I'm conscious of the problems of my country but all I can do is not to follow the herd


 
It's great to hear this from a 21-year-old. Grazie, Dalila Voi nuove generazioni siete la nostra unica speranza


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## moodywop

> Noch ist Italien, wie ichs verließ, noch stäuben die Wege, noch ist der Fremde geprellt, stell er sich, wie er auch will. Deutsche Rechtlichkeit suchst du in allen Winkeln vergebens, Leben und Weben ist hier, aber nicht Ordnung und Zucht; Jeder sorgt nur für sich, ist eitel, misstrauet dem andern,Und die meister des Staats sorgen nur wieder für sich




Maybe one of the German forer@s could translate these lines Goethe wrote about Italy. I wouldn't like to get the translation wrong and I can't find one online


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## dalila

The description Goethe made of Italy is - in some way - still valid nowadays. 
I don't dare translate his words, but he says that in Italy streets are dirty and foreigners are cheated out of their money. You can't find German laws in Italy, there is no order or discipline. People only think of themselves and don't trust anybody and the leaders do the same.
Nice description, isn't it?


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## Outsider

I always take words about countries or peoples with a grain of salt, especially when they're written by great writers (). It's so easy to criticize from the outside.


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## cirrus

moodywop said:


> Maybe one of the German forer@s could translate these lines Goethe wrote about Italy. I wouldn't like to get the translation wrong and I can't find one online


Carlo I am by no means German but here is a rough go in case people don't read German.

Italy is just how I left it, the roads are still dusty, foreigners are still cheated wherever they are.  No matter how hard you look for a German sense of justice you won’t find any.   Instead you will find life and movement but not order and self discipline.  Everyone just looks after himself, is vane, mistrusts others and the people who run the state similarly only look after themselves.


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## moodywop

Outsider said:


> I always take words about countries or peoples with a grain of salt, especially when they're written by great writers (). It's so easy to criticize from the outside.


 
Well, let's not forget those words were written some two hundred years ago 

What he wrote about politicians is as true today as it was then, though

EDIT: Thanks so much, Dalila and Cirrus. That was very kind of you!


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## ireney

I come from a country that suffers from similar problems with Italy (anyone remember this? Very popular in Greece. We all said you only need to change the Italian flag with the Greek one and it's us) so I can see where all the whinning and cursing comes from. However Goethe is going a bit far as I see it. Italy is by no means a Hellhole.

Sure, things could be better; same goes for Germany (I swear this strict adherring to the rules and the Octoberfest drive me crazy even as a tourist   )

I do think that the bella figura thing is a bit over the top although that means that all young Greek girls want to go to the Ionian islands on summer because of the Italian "invasion"; honestly, it's almost too easy to spot the Italians on a beach (not on the street though; we have the bella figura 'disease' ourselves only it's not such a sever case )

All in all, I really don't think bella figura is the reason for all that is wrong in Italy. Don't tell me (and I am about to insult a lot of our neighbours) that people voted for Berlusconni because of _his_ "bella figura" (nice tanning and his shinny smile? )


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## Nate in California

> *She's all fur coat and no knickers* was an expression I heard from my mother's mouth when I was very young and Ireland was a poorer country than it is today. The idea that someone would spend money on appearances whilst neglecting the essentials was striking — but there are those to whom such a concept is not strange.


I think it's quite telling that this expression comes from Ireland, another country that, like Italy, was impoverished right up to the post-WWII period (and beyond). 

My first exposure to the Italian concept of the _bella figura_ (which in my opinion is really more about avoiding _la brutta figura_) came when I was studying in Italy over a decade ago. I kept seeing students in my classes wearing the same clothes over and over, yet they were REALLY nice clothes. This led me to the question, 'why don't they just buy clothes that are less expensive so they can have more than one shirt?!!' 

For the longest time I struggled to understand why Italians were so preoccupied with the _bella figura_, until my ex-father-in-law (in Italy) explained it as such: it is a modern manifestation of an ancient attitude on the part of the poor, which is to say, 'I may not have much but I still have my dignity." In other words, I may have only one suit, but it is clean, it is pressed, and goddamnit, I look just as good as you do! 

To understand how right he was, I looked no further than my ex's grandfather, who grew up a _mezzadro _and lived a simple life. Every time I saw him outside his home he looked nothing less than impeccable. Not a fiber out of place on his suit, not a hair out of place on his head. Was he on quest to achieve _la bella figura_? Of course not. It was a matter of dignity.

Unfortunately, this ancient attitude has morphed into an obsession with beauty and brand name clothes. But that's not where it comes from.

As far as _raccomendazioni_ and the like, we're talking about a deeply ingrained aspect of Italian culture that would be impossible to change in a short period of time. Through centuries of invasion and conquest, I believe the descendants of modern-day Italians learned that no one was going to look out for you but yourself. This perception -- and it's more than perception -- persists to this day in Italy. Everyone's out for themselves because they know that everyone else is as well. It's a 'kill or be killed' sort of attitude. 

But Why is it that if you take an Italian outside of Italy, he behaves differently? Generation after generation of Italian emigrants have adapted to the cultures of the nations to which they have immigrated. The reason is that it's impossible to get an entire nation to collectively agree to change a facet of their culture that lies somewhere between the conscious and the subconcious, that exists due to hundreds if not thousands of years of historical evolution. To get the entire nation to just say, 'ok, from now on we're all going to be nice to each other and treat each other fairly, and abandon campanalismo, and tangenti, and nepotismo, raccomendazioni, the list goes on...it's just not possible. Only through years and years of further evolution can such a thing take place.


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## moodywop

Hi Ireney

A Greek friend once told me you say "una faccia una razza" to mean we're very similar not only in looks but in character. Is the Italian saying really used in Greece?



> Sure, things could be better; same goes for Germany


 
Forgive me for saying this, but if we go down this slippery road - oh well, all countries have probems/nobody's perfect/it could be worse etc - we'll end up drowning in platitudes.

If Beppe Severgnini, Luigi Barzini and several foreign writers (I'm not talking about Goethe now - most ex-correspondents from Rome have written similar books, e.g. Peter Nichols of _The Times, _John Haycraft [_The Italian Labyrinth]_ etc etc, oh and Tim Parks, _Italian Neighbours, _William Ward*) have used the ancient concept of "bella figura" as one of the distinctive traits of the Italian character and seen its flawed charm, well, there must be a reason.

The core issue is: does this obsession with appearance over substance get in the way of a mature, self-critical acknowledgement of extremely serious problems that keep us from becoming a truly modern nation, make daily life unnecessary hellish for many people and - most of all - destroy the moral fibre of many young people who see connections as the only way of getting a job?

Maybe that's why we're so good at fashion and design (appearance) but not at grappling with fundamental issues (substance).

Oh and let's not forget that tourists only go to Venice, Florence, Rome, Capri, Positano, Ravello etc 
Many Italians don't even have the beautiful scenery to make up for everything else. 
I once drove an English friend from Naples airport to my town. She had never seen the Naples "hinterland". She went: "My God! This is hell on earth!".

* It's amazing how many books on Italians have been written by mostly English-language writers. It's a tradition that goes back centuries - to when the Grand Tour became a must for European gentlemen. The Romantc poets came here in droves.
Almost a genre in itself

EDIT: You made some great points, Nate


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## cuchuflete

Outsider said:


> On a global scale, I think what you describe is the rule, not the exception. I've often wondered if this has anything to do with the fact that the U.S. are the oldest modern democracy, and one of the oldest capitalist nations in the world.


As I read Carlo's initial post, I started to think of a couple of other countries where I've spent a lot of time (They speak something other than Italian.).  The similarities are striking.  I think that Outsider has hit the nail on the head.


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## TimLA

> Let me start with a strange reaction I got when I opened this thread. Some non-Italian forer@s contacted me asking me to re-consider. My topic was too controversial


Clearly *not* too controversial - perhaps it is the start of something quite important. I have seen some Italians condemn Italy on the IE forum, and I will sometimes respond in a way to be more supportive of Italy, and perhaps provide a counterpoint to an opinion based on the hormones of youth. But your theses are rational and supported by data - thus they must be addressed.



> I would add that we have a long tradition of mostly isolated figures in our history denouncing some aspects of the Italian character. Dante criticised our factionalism almost 700 years ago.


To me, this paragraph is instructive and poignant. You and others have taught me about the Italian dialects and how there was no common "Italian" until the mid-1800's (I still need to ask you about that book...by PM). To think that a group of more than 20 "countries" will unite and become a common, rational culture in a short period of time is, irrational.



> If he couldn't answer the question I certainly can't. Historians have cited our long history of disunity, our individualism at the expense of the greater good etc


I think my question was more rhetorical, but also a prod to develop some specific ideas. You raised an issue about garbage in the street. If that happened here, some neighbors and I - being irreverant Americans - would rent some trucks, pick up the garbage and immediately dump it in the front of city hall - with TV cameras blazing. Or we might dump it in the front of the garbage collectors union hall.



> The Italian peculiarity is reflected in language. A "lettera di raccomandazione" is *not *a letter of recommendation. It is written by a powerful man to solicit a job for a relative or political supporter. When we see someone who clearly isn't up to his job (from a professor to a doctor to a bank clerk) we wink and go:_ un altro "raccomandato"._ Nobody objects or complains, though. Our son or daughter may need a "raccomandazione" soon. It's a perverse vicious circle.


 Distressing, surely. But how to respond? Someone here, in the early 1950's was said to "Standing athwart history and yelling 'STOP' ". Often it starts with one person.



> The amazing thing is that this practice knows no regional boundaries. Forget about North/Centre/South divisions. I myself was shocked when the huge Tangentopoli scandal broke in Milan. Politicians were making money even on the backs of dead people. Hospital administrators would only help funeral directors who paid "tangenti" (bribes). Huge accounts were discovered in offshore banks.


 Are there some young, visionary lawyers willing to use the legal system to attack corruption? The Chicago mafia was not defeated by prosecutions for murder, but for tax evasion. Much of racial progress was made by enacting and the enforcement of voting laws. Are there Italian Ghandi's and King's?



> The Communist Party, in my view, shares that blame for preventing changes in government because it clung to its ideology...


 I'm stunned to see communist party flags throughout Italy. But then again, there are those who still believe Elvis lives.

You've raised extremely important issues that will not be solved on this forum...but they deserve discussion. And perhaps someone like you, might light a fire...


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## Outsider

TimLA said:


> Are there some young, visionary lawyers willing to use the legal system to attack corruption? The Chicago mafia was not defeated by prosecutions for murder, but for tax evasion. Much of racial progress was made by enacting and the enforcement of voting laws. Are there Italian Ghandi's and King's?


I remember the corruption trials of the nineties. People were killed for sticking up for legality in Italy! That has to count for something. 



TimLA said:


> I'm stunned to see communist party flags throughout Italy.


As much as parties try to convince us that they're all about ideology, they are shaped by social conditions, too. The Communist Party, like most parties, has had different histories in different countries.


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## maxiogee

TimLA said:


> I'm stunned to see communist party flags throughout Italy.


Seriously — why?


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## TimLA

maxiogee said:


> Seriously — why?


 
Italy is a first-world country - a country that has thrived on openness, capitalism, freedom - the exact opposite of what communism represents.

Communism, in its present form, is beautifully represented by Cuba, North Korea and China. I cannot imagine anyone wanting to convert Italy into anything close to those countries.

Yes, it's stunning to me to walk down the streets of the birthplace of Puccini, see the incredible churches, art, and freedom -- then look up at a balcony and see the communist flag. What a disconnect.


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## ireney

moodywop said:


> Hi Ireney
> 
> A Greek friend once told me you say "una faccia una razza" to mean we're very similar not only in looks but in character. Is the Italian saying really used in Greece?


 
Yeap! Practically every Greek knows it and believes it. And as far as I had a chance to discuss things with Italians we do have our differences but we are close enough to be cousins at least. We absolutely adore the Italians.




> Forgive me for saying this, but if we go down this slippery road - oh well, all countries have probems/nobody's perfect/it could be worse etc - we'll end up drowning in platitudes.


 
Oh I didn't mean that we shouldn't do something about it! Both you and us (and everyone else who has problems) must work towards eliminating them! It's just that the whole "Italy is so bad" etc gives the wrong impression and that's another slippery road if you ask me.




> If Beppe Severgnini, Luigi Barzini and several foreign writers (I'm not talking about Goethe now - most ex-correspondents from Rome have written similar books, e.g. Peter Nichols of _The Times, _John Haycraft [_The Italian Labyrinth]_ etc etc, oh and Tim Parks, _Italian Neighbours, _William Ward*) have used the ancient concept of "bella figura" as one of the distinctive traits of the Italian character and seen its flawed charm, well, there must be a reason.
> 
> The core issue is: does this obsession with appearance over substance get in the way of a mature, self-critical acknowledgement of extremely serious problems that keep us from becoming a truly modern nation, make daily life unnecessary hellish for many people and - most of all - destroy the moral fibre of many young people who see connections as the only way of getting a job?


 
I think I've answered this one. No, I don't think "bella figura" is to be blamed. The _obsession_ with it maybe considered a result of the problems not a cause.





> Oh and let's not forget that tourists only go to Venice, Florence, Rome, Capri, Positano, Ravello etc
> Many Italians don't even have the beautiful scenery to make up for everything else.
> I once drove an English friend from Naples airport to my town. She had never seen the Naples "hinterland". She went: "My God! This is hell on earth!".


 

Really? I didn't think so! I mean, yes, having a guy trying to steal our cars tires in front of the cafe we were sitting was a shock (especially when my friend who studies there and speaks Italian fluently went there and the thief thought he was another thief and told him they should split the loot [he'd take the tires, my friend could take the stereo]) but Hell? Niahhh!




> * It's amazing how many books on Italians have been written by mostly English-language writers. It's a tradition that goes back centuries - to when the Grand Tour became a must for European gentlemen. The Romantc poets came here in droves.
> Almost a genre in itself


 
To my mind it was more like the "grand sneer" ("it looks lovely but aren't we more sophisticated? ")


Anyway, the Mafia is a huge problem and a "why don't someone do something about it" deserves either an essay long answer or none at all.

Should something be done with what you call "lettera di raccomandazione" and we call "rusfeti" from our neighbours it the East (who either call it rusvet or topilla if I am not mistaken [where are you Chazz?] )?  Yeap. In fact we have been trying to do something but, as others have noted before me, bad habbits that have been around for a long, long, LONG time, can't be changed as quickly as we'd like them to be.


P.S. The Communist Parties can be blamed for many things (though not everything and they are not always wrong in what they say) but having one around can't be THAT surpising!


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## Nate in California

TimLA said:


> Italy is a first-world country - a country that has thrived on openness, capitalism, freedom - the exact opposite of what communism represents.
> 
> Communism, in its present form, is beautifully represented by Cuba, North Korea and China. I cannot imagine anyone wanting to convert Italy into anything close to those countries.
> 
> Yes, it's stunning to me to walk down the streets of the birthplace of Puccini, see the incredible churches, art, and freedom -- then look up at a balcony and see the communist flag. What a disconnect.



That's a very American view of communism. Communist parties exist in many first-world countries. We Americans are the only ones who grew up with the idea that communism is evil. The idea that Italy should only be cathedrals, Renaissance art, and opera is very superficial, very "Under the Tuscan Sun."


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## cirrus

TimLA said:


> Italy is a first-world country - a country that has thrived on openness, capitalism, freedom - the exact opposite of what communism represents.
> 
> Communism, in its present form, is beautifully represented by Cuba, North Korea and China. I cannot imagine anyone wanting to convert Italy into anything close to those countries.
> 
> Yes, it's stunning to me to walk down the streets of the birthplace of Puccini, see the incredible churches, art, and freedom -- then look up at a balcony and see the communist flag. What a disconnect.


It would do you no harm to find out more about the Italian communists and the PCI (Italian communist party).  Bear in mind that Mussolini came to power in the 20s and many communists were imprisoned for being communists.  Also if you look at the areas which are traditionally communist they are some of the most open and economically successful areas of Italy.  

Modena, where Ferraris are made, is traditionally a centre of Communist power. It is also one of the richest and best organised cities (and for that matter regions) of Italy.  To compare the PCI with Cuba or Korea or China is to not know the reality of these places or the party which for example was one of the first to acknowledge and support gays or the environmental movement.  The church and the Christian Democrat party spent years at doing everything to avoid communists getting into government.  So tell me where does that fit with democracy?


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## TrentinaNE

I ate a delicious _lasagna _at the Communist Party _Festa della Unità_ when I passed through Bologna 21 years ago.  **runs and ducks for cover **   

Elisabetta


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## maxiogee

Communism is more than, and very definitely 'other' than, what has ever been practised anywhere.
But of course, the same has been said of Christianity


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## ElaineG

> Bear in mind that Mussolini came to power in the 20s and many communists were imprisoned for being communists.


 
And many of the partigiani were communists.  

In Sicily, the region I know best, the communists have long stood up to the Mafia when few others would (and in the past paid a heavy price in blood for doing so).  

Communism means different things in different places, but part of it at least, in Italy, has meant standing up to the established networks (some times -- sometimes they are too lost in infighting to do much of anything) that Carlo critiques in his earlier posts.


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## moodywop

ireney said:
			
		

> It's just that the whole "Italy is so bad" etc gives the wrong impression and that's another slippery road if you ask me.


I must respectfully disagree - most strongly. "Italy is so bad" is *not* the topic of this thread. Otherwise someone could have responded "so are many other countries" and the thread would be as dead as a dodo now. 

To those who mentioned the PCI - it no longer exists. I'm an anticommunist but I fully acknowledge that it has turned into a social democratic party. It still focuses on public spending instead of structural reforms - but then all the parties do to keep their voters happy.



			
				cuchuflete said:
			
		

> As I read Carlo's initial post, I started to think of a couple of other countries where I've spent a lot of time (They speak something other than Italian.). The similarities are striking. I think that Outsider has hit the nail on the head


 
Again, I strongly disagree - Outsider said that only very few countries do not share Italy's problems. I would like to see a list of these "very few" countries. Also, each country has its specific history and culture. The nail missed the target.

One interesting comment made by many historians is that corruption and poor ethical standards seem to be widespread in countries where the Catholic church maintained its hold on society and strong influence on politics(this explains some common patterns in Catholic countries such as Spain, Portugal and Latin American countries but *does not justify blurring important peculiarities).*
In the 50s "parroci" (vicars) would tell people who to vote for during their sermons. It's in all history books. The same happened when we had referendums on divorce and abortion. To my countrymen's credit, they didn't listen to the Church.
The Catholic church fully supported the corrupt Christian Democratic party until Tangentopoli destroyed it. Bishops would tell Italians that catholics should vote for the only party upholding Catholic principles.
Strictly, divorcees should be excluded from sacraments. Berlusconi has his own private chapel in his villa. Priests are happy to celebrate mass there. Berlusconi strongly opposed gay civil unions to gain Catholic votes.

Having the Vatican on our soil (in our capital) is another specific, *unique* Italian peculiarity that Cuchu and Outsider's generalized statements would lead us to overlook. We are *the only country *(as far as I know - if I'm wrong please enlighten me) that has a special written agreement (Patti Lateranensi) with the Vatican, granting ludicrous privileges to the Vatican. They have* power of veto* over who can teach religion in schools. Religious teaching* must be limited to the Catholic religion* (the "religione di stato" )and not mention other creeds. Teachers have been dismissed at the local bishop's request because of their unorthodox lifestyle or views. It's outrageous. *Would this happen in any other country?* I'm all ears.
The pact was a concession by Mussolini to the Pope in exchange for the Church's silence about fascist repression.
To their shame, no Italian government has had the courage to repeal this fascist leftover. It's still there - untouched.

Many historians and social historians and economists - starting with Max Weber and then with Maurice Dobb in England - argued that the Protestant reformation and its spirit go hand in hand with the rise of capitalism and the growth of modern nations.


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## cirrus

When I mentioned the PCI I didn't mean I thought it was still going.  However it was a (mostly) progressive force in an otherwise conservative dominated panorama for the best part of nearly fifty years.

As for would any other country come up with wierd deals with the vatican just look at Franco's Spain - again a deal whereby fascists could get some sort of credibility to compensate for a lack of democratic votes.


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## Alfry

Well, well, it took me a lot of time to read everything.

I'm Italian, that's not a secret, I like pasta, that's not a bad habit, I like being Italian (even though I sometimes feel the urge to run away) especially because Italy is full of magnificent places and food and masterpieces. I like Italy because of its culture, because of its customs... I might go on forever.

Of course there are a lot of things I don't like either.

All the same, I don't think there's a perfect country where the weather is incredibly mild and there's always the sun, even during the night , where people are nice and women are beautiful and men are handsome (this wouldn't be that important, though) and everybody is rich so no one needs to steal anything.... and so on.

Should anyone know the perfect country I'd like to know it too. Please don't keep it a secret.

I agree, Italians like to look good even if they have to go to the post office. I don't think this is a crime. I also agree that Italy is the place where what's forbidden is not completely forbidden, in fact we need to add "severamente" on signs that read "è severamente vietato .... " otherwise people wouldn't take those signs into account at all.
And I also agree with most of the not-so-good things about Italy I read here.

In a nutshell, I'm not saying Italy is the perfect country, but I was born and raised here and I've got this Italian virus in my veins.
Don't run away now, it's not contagious. I can also smile, even though sometimes I may cry. 

Maybe streets don't smell like roses, that's right, but I swear I saw people laughing on those streets, maybe they are full of dangerous people, yet I like to walk on those same streets and I'm not the only one.

There's not such a thing as a perfect place to live.


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## cuchuflete

Sorry Carlo, 
Your digressions about the uniqueness of Italy totally miss the point.  Italy is different from each and every other country on the face of the earth.  It is Italian.  It has its peculiarities.

Enough platitudes.

Now let's get back to the thread topic:  

"Italian bella figura: appearance over substance"

Form over substance is neither an Italian invention nor an Italian monopoly.  It may be a common problem in your country, but Italy shares that problem with many other nations.  The manifestations are very similar, if not identical.
The results are very similar, if not identical.

I vigorously disagree with your attempt to describe Italy as
somehow special or even unusual in suffering from this disease.  It's common throughout the world.

This thread has regaled us with tales of corruption.  That's not uniquely Italian.  There is plenty of corruption in my country and others.  Influence peddling and exercise are common worldwide.

There is also a Spanish saying that reflects common cultural tendencies: "Lo que dirán".  There are equivalents in other languages.

In short, you are right to be concerned and even deeply troubled by the way this plays out in your country.  Claiming it to be an especially Italian phenomenon is wrong.


----------



## Outsider

moodywop said:


> Having the Vatican on our soil (in our capital) is another specific, *unique* Italian peculiarity that Cuchu and Outsider's generalized statements would lead us to overlook. We are *the only country *(as far as I know - if I'm wrong please enlighten me) that has a special written agreement (Patti Lateranensi) with the Vatican, granting ludicrous privileges to the Vatican. They have* power of veto* over who can teach religion in schools. Religious teaching* must be limited to the Catholic religion* (the "religione di stato" )and not mention other creeds. Teachers have been dismissed at the local bishop's request because of their unorthodox lifestyle or views. It's outrageous. *Would this happen in any other country?* I'm all ears.


I'm not sure that you will regard the legal details as serious as in Italy, but I do remember that some posters here in the forum were displeased with the relation between church and state in their countries, a while ago. Ah, here it is (and Germany has lots of protestants...)


----------



## moodywop

cuchuflete said:


> Sorry Carlo,
> Your digressions about the uniqueness of Italy *totally miss the point*.The results are very similar, if not identical.


 
And I vehemently disagree that mine were digressions. This thread *is *about Italy, isn't it. So I think it is legitimate and to the point to go deeper into the specific traits that identify Italy as a specific nation.




> In short, you are right to be concerned and even deeply troubled by the way this plays out in your country. Claiming it to be an especially Italian phenomenon is wrong.


 
It may not be an especially Italian phenomenon but I hoped this thread would focus on the specific way this "phenomenon" plays out in Italy. Otherwise I wouldn't have started it.

I spent forty-two years of my life in this country. I spent another ten in the UK and visited many European countries and the US.
Some of the peculiarities I mentioned affected me and my family in many unpleasant, sometimes tragic ways. I claim my right to feel strongly about issues that have not affected others personally.


----------



## cuchuflete

Fair enough.  Please connect the dots.  Tell us how each of these points leads to preoccupation with _la bella figura_, and why this is so uniquely Italian.



> In the 50s "parroci" (vicars) would tell people who to vote for during their sermons. It's in all history books. The same happened when we had referendums on divorce and abortion. To my countrymen's credit, they didn't listen to the Church.  Today, in my country, religious leaders tell people how to vote.  They are often listened to.  To your countrymen's credit, Italians seem less prone to believe things are right and true because they are stated in Sermons.  Still, there is nothing peculiarly Italian about ignoring the excesses of the clergy.
> The Catholic church fully supported the corrupt Christian Democratic party until Tangentopoli destroyed it. Bishops would tell Italians that catholics should vote for the only party upholding Catholic principles.  Is Italy unique in this?
> Strictly, divorcees should be excluded from sacraments. Berlusconi has his own private chapel in his villa. Priests are happy to celebrate mass there. Berlusconi strongly opposed gay civil unions to gain Catholic votes.  I grant you Berlusconi as uniquely Italian.  He is an Italian manifestation of a wealthy, egomaniacal, dishonest, greedy political hack.  Other than his Italianness, he has counterparts worldwide, albeit with fewer TV stations.
> 
> Having the Vatican on our soil It's not on Italian soil, although it is surrounded by Italian soil. (in our capital) is another specific, *unique* Italian peculiarity that Cuchu and Outsider's generalized statements would lead us to overlook.  I await your logical exposition to show what this has to do with _la bella figura_. Tell us why it leads to governmental inefficiency, corruption, use of connections, and the rest of the problems discussed.  We are *the only country *(as far as I know - if I'm wrong please enlighten me) that has a special written agreement (Patti Lateranensi) with the Vatican, granting ludicrous privileges to the Vatican. They have* power of veto* over who can teach religion in schools. Religious teaching* must be limited to the Catholic religion* (the "religione di stato" )and not mention other creeds. Teachers have been dismissed at the local bishop's request because of their unorthodox lifestyle or views. It's outrageous. *Would this happen in any other country?* I'm all ears.  Fascinating topic for a new thread, as you have yet to demonstate that it has the least bit of causal relationship with what you described in your first post.  Yes, it is uniquely Italian.  So is Sophia Loren.
> The pact was a concession by Mussolini to the Pope in exchange for the Church's silence about fascist repression.
> To their shame, no Italian government has had the courage to repeal this fascist leftover. It's still there - untouched.
> 
> Many historians and social historians and economists - starting with Max Weber and then with Maurice Dobb in England - argued that the Protestant reformation and its spirit go hand in hand with the rise of capitalism and the growth of modern nations. 		 	 		 		 		 		 			 				_________________and therefore???



Italy is also the only country on the planet with the Leaning Tower of Pisa.  What are the factual connections of these things you have mentioned to either _la bella figura_ or the price of tea in China?  I'm very tired, and perhaps I'm missing the obvious correlations.


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## moodywop

"La bella figura" has to do with only worrying about appearance and not about substance. The author of the book argues that this leads Italians to neglect the deep problems we are faced with. So "bella figura" has to do with the *attitude *to the problems and the lack of any serious effort to tackle them. I agree with him.

I'm tired too so I'll stop here. I'm sorry that you feel this thread was misconceived. Maybe you are right. Mods, please feel free to delete it.


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## cuchuflete

I don't feel the thread was misconceived.  My difficulty is with some of the later posts which, while speaking accurately about things Italian, seem to me outside the scope of a logical discussion of the basis of the attitude you describe.

Could that attitude be a *result*, rather than a cause of the problems?  What I am suggesting as a possibility is that many of your countrymen may have just become resigned to the
likelihood that things are just not going to change.  Therefore they exert the limited influence or power they have over what little they themselves _can_ control: appearances.

That would be a self-fulfilling prophecy, or circular reasoning, but often that is how we behave, as humans.


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## ireney

moodywop said:


> I must respectfully disagree - most strongly. "Italy is so bad" is *not* the topic of this thread. Otherwise someone could have responded "so are many other countries" and the thread would be as dead as a dodo now.


 
You are right; the "Italy is so bad" is not the topic of the thread. However it seems to me that quite a few people have mentioned things that are wrong with/in Italy for which, as I see it, the "bella figura" cannot be blamed.

And, to tell you the truth, although it wouldn't be a bad thing per se to take down the attention to appearence a notch or two if that would somehow help Italians to solve some of their problems, I would definitely not like them to see them going out in the "let's grab the first thing our hand lands on and who cares if every item I wear clashes with all the others" way some dress.


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## Victoria32

ireney said:


> All in all, I really don't think bella figura is the reason for all that is wrong in Italy. Don't tell me (and I am about to insult a lot of our neighbours) that people voted for Berlusconni because of _his_ "bella figura" (nice tanning and his shinny smile? )


I seriously hope not! Berlusconi is an embarassment but he is not unique in his awfulness, here in NZ we have a politician called Winston Peters http://www.nzfirst.org.nz/leader/index.php
who is an embarassment, but not quite in the same way (deeply racist campaigning against Asian immigration for one thing). 


moodywop said:


> Forgive me for saying this, but if we go down this slippery road - oh well, all countries have probems/nobody's perfect/it could be worse etc - we'll end up drowning in platitudes.


Italy's problems are its own, all countries have their unique problems, because NZ is so far away from anywhere, New  Zealanders tend to be very insular... But I see your point about dealing with Italy's problems as they lie nearest your heart. 





moodywop said:


> The core issue is: does this obsession with appearance over substance get in the way of a mature, self-critical acknowledgement of extremely serious problems that keep us from becoming a truly modern nation, make daily life unnecessary hellish for many people and - most of all - destroy the moral fibre of many young people who see connections as the only way of getting a job?
> 
> Maybe that's why we're so good at fashion and design (appearance) but not at grappling with fundamental issues (substance).


We have an expression "style over substance", which I remember my mother using as she would also use "fur coat and no knickers"... That exists in different ways in many countries, the bourgeois New Zealander is obsessed with 'what will the neighbours say?" and to an extent, I am not immune to that myself.


ireney said:


> .P.S. The Communist Parties can be blamed for many things (though not everything and they are not always wrong in what they say) but having one around can't be THAT surpising!


Indeed! I know very little about the Italian CP, but we have one here, clinging on, though it never gets good results, MMP notwithstanding. 



moodywop said:


> Bishops would tell Italians that catholics should vote for the only party upholding Catholic principles.


Here in New Zealand at the last election, there was a minor scandal (which should have been a major one) when a splinter group (a cult virtually) spent over $50 000 on a pamphlet purporting to be objective, telling voters to back a particular party and specifically against the Greens on religious principles!  So, that kind of influence (which can never be more than _attempted _influence) is not unique to Catholicism. At least the Catholic church is consistent - opposing the death penalty in the USA as part of the 'seamless garment' of protection of life. (I argue that point with Americans a lot on other boards... )
Other countries do have complaints about church influence on government - I remember a German friend of mine getting almost rabid on the subject regarding Germany...


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## moodywop

OK, after a good night's sleep I am able to respond to some of the objections that have been made on logica grounds:

1) I *never* said that all our problems are to be blamed on the "fare una bella figura" idea (although some are). I made it quite clear that this *attitude *may well (I phrased it as a question) stand in the way of the full awareness that is a prerequisite of any attempt to change things. 
I mentioned the idea (which is not mine and has been around a long time) of two Italies - one creative and forward looking, the other mired in inertia. I asked whether any foreigners had perceived this contradiction.
Forer@s like Lsp, Tim and Nate, who spent years or long periods in Italy, said they did.
It's not my fault if other forer@ did not address the *attitude *aspect and shifted the discussion to the *problems *as a whole, saying they were not *in any way *specific to Italy. I agree with Cuchu that this strayed from the original topic but, quite frankly, I've seen it happen in many threads at CD (just look at the thread on rules in grammar or the "Do they hate US" one - nobody objected there). In a real-life discussion it would be normal to stray into offshoots of the original topic of conversation. Why should our discussions here be any different?
And anyway, once the original question was obscured by the irrelevant issue of whether our problems are unique (unique -no; specific and a reflection of our history and culture yes) I had no choice but to respond to what I thought were excessively general statements.
I'm still awaiting Outsiders list of the "very few" countries that do not share some or most of our problems. Although whether there are many, a few, few or very few is beside the point. It was not I who* confused problems with the* *attitude to them*, leading the discussion astray and forcing me to argue that the specificity of our problems should not be overlooked, unless one is prepared to look just at superficial similarities, ignoring hundreds of years of history.

(and quite honestly I don't see any harm in discussing Italy a bit more in depth. Because Italians hardly ever post here the only threads discussing Italy are the one on Bozzetto's funny animated feature, Berlusconi's electoral defeat, the world cup win and mine on language teaching).

I will of course buy and read Mr Severgnini's book. The NYT review only gives a few quotes and only skims the surface of his arguments.

However, his remark that:



> ...a fatal weakness for beauty and surface appeal, “la bella figura.” Italians, in other words, would *just as soon look good as be good*
> 
> The country suffers from *an ethics deficit*


 
clearly refers to *attitudes *to problems rather than to the problems itself. As I said, this aspect has been highlited by many Italian and non-Italian writers for centuries. I don't think they were all misguided.
And the "ethics deficit", which is a genuine malaise, is indeed a problem in itself and strongly linked to the "bella figura".
It may, *but only to an extent*, have been used as a figurative, metaphorical simplification. But rationality and logics should not stop us from also using our intuition. If the idea strikes a chord with me, Lsp, Nate and many friends I discussed it with there must be a reason.
By applying only strict, cold rationalism and logic one can punch holes in any statement. It becomes a rhetorical exercise. Good gymnastics for the brain but ultimately sterile.

Maybe there is also a linguistic/cultural misunderstanding that I should have addressed earlier. The "bella figura" is not just "looking good ad being vain" - that's a superficial ramification. The phrase is always "*fare *una bella figura", which is far more wide-ranging. The "bella figura" our late PM thought he had achieved by making Italians feel they had bravely stood up to US interference blinded Italians to the ignominious action that had produced that "bella figura". He shot up in the polls.
Mussolini also exploited this myopic attitude when he tricked Italians into believing he had restored the greatness of the Roman Empire - my town's town hall and other public buildings still display the magniloquent, phoney, grandiose architectural style of the time, with huge inscriptions in Latin stating things like "the 5th year of the imperial fascist era"!
Of course someone will now tell me that many leaders have exploited the recourse to national pride to delude electors - like Mrs Thatcher and General Galdieri in the Falklands War. True, but it's the full picture that matters.

As for my comment that




> Many historians and social historians and economists - starting with Max Weber and then with Maurice Dobb in England - argued that the Protestant reformation and its spirit go hand in hand with the rise of capitalism and the growth of modern nations. _________________and therefore???


 
which so puzzled Cuchu, it was 1.00 am when I posted and I'm not well. I didn't have the mental energy to develop it. Again, I was forced down that sligtly digressionary path by Outsider. 
Instead of just saying "many countries (according to Outsider, almost all) display similar problems" I thought it might be interesting, for a moment, to cite authors that have tried to account for this similarity between countries that shared a historical trait: the lack of a Protestant reformation that, in their opinion (open to objections but accepted by most historians), freed other countries from centuries-old attitudes, thus favouring the development of modern societies unfettered by the corrupting influence of a corrupt church. Again, I was forced down this not totally off-topic path by the remarks of others. It happens in all genuine discussions, unmonitored by referees.

The basic questions were made clear by me at the start:



> how do forer@s who know Italy view the opinions expressed in the interview with the Italian author (a highly-regarded journalist working for the Turin daily "La Stampa") about the Italian *obsession/coping strategy* etc known as "bella figura"? Many of the foreign writers who have devoted books and essays to the "Italian character" have mentioned "bella figura".
> How do you reconcile the gap between the Italy we all love and the dysfunctional reality we natives have to live with but that not all visitors are aware of?
> 
> As an Italian, however charming the "bella figura" *attitude* may appear, I feel that it also *gets in the way of confronting and dealing with issues* that have festered for decades - sometimes for much longer.


 


> The core issue is: *does this obsession with appearance over substance get in the way of a mature, self-critical acknowledgement of extremely* *serious problems* that keep us from becoming a truly modern nation, make daily life unnecessary hellish for many people and - most of all - destroy the moral fibre of many young people who see connections as the only way of getting a job?
> 
> Maybe that's why we're so good at fashion and design (appearance) but not at grappling with fundamental issues (substance)


 
If others insist on reducing the "bella figura" idea to putting on nice clothes that match, well, blame them, not me.

And one final point: even if my instinctive feel that Severgnini has a point, based on my first-hand experience of forty years and a "fuga" to Britain (which lasted ten years) in disgust at my country's paralyzing inertia, is delusional, isn't that a problem in itself, since it is shared by many Italians and writers?

I love my country. Otherwise I wouldn't have returned - almost exactly twenty years ago. I love it - warts and all. Why shouldn't I focus on the warts if they affect my life and the lives of millions?

I have nothing further to add.


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## maxiogee

Carlo,
With all due respect



moodywop said:


> In the 50s "parroci" (vicars) would tell people who to vote for during their sermons.


*And in Ireland.* 



moodywop said:


> The same happened when we had referendums on divorce and abortion.


*And in Ireland.* 



moodywop said:


> The Catholic church fully supported the corrupt Christian Democratic party until Tangentopoli destroyed it. Bishops would tell Italians that catholics should vote for the only party upholding Catholic principles.


*And in Ireland.* (with the exception of the party name - Fianna Fail) 



moodywop said:


> We are *the only country *(as far as I know - if I'm wrong please enlighten me) that has a special written agreement (Patti Lateranensi) with the Vatican, granting ludicrous privileges to the Vatican. They have* power of veto* over who can teach religion in schools.


*And in Ireland.* 



moodywop said:


> Teachers have been dismissed at the local bishop's request because of their unorthodox lifestyle or views.


*And in Ireland.*


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## moodywop

Tony

My response is in my previous post (problems vs attitudes to them - a misleading confusion I did not start).

Maybe I am stupid or my English is not very good and I can't express my thoughts clearly.

Or I need to pay a visit to my psychiatrist. My ability to take part in rational discourse has already been questioned publicly in a previous thread and in private (in PMs I've received).

I apologize for talking rubbish and getting it all wrong about my country.


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## GavinW

Yes, this discussion has strayed from the main point. I think that's hard to avoid. You might argue it's one of the pleasures of discussion, anyway. But before straying too much, I think, if we take this forum at all seriously, we ought to ensure we've addressed the main point first, as well as we can, at least, or else start a new thread. Actually, some of the comments on the problems in Italy, and their counterparts in other countries, are informative, revealing, and of course well-meaning. But as contributions to the original point, surely one must argue that they are pretty much doomed to failure, logically, as they are off-point. No offence to anyone, I repeat. I found many of the individual posts mildly interesting and variously illuminating, but if we get to the situation where the original poster, despite his best efforts, is forced to basically give up in frustration, after a series of misunderstandings generated by others, we need to reflect that too many foreros have been interpreting too loosely the rules which govern contributions to threads. 

I read the interview with the author of the book. I have an opinion on Severgnini. I like him, although sometimes I've felt he has a tendency to spread his intelligence (and wit) too thinly, over one or two fairly obvious observations, without helping more profound understanding of underlying problematics. But that's because he's a likeable journo who aims for mass appeal. He goes for the lowest common denominator, without losing his cachet as a man of wit for the thinking man-on-the-street.

But Severgini is not the subject of this thread. 

Moodywop asks about perceptions of the discrepancy between the two experiences of Italy: the Italy seen from without, and the Italy seen from within. As a Brit who has spent stretches in both UK and Italy, over a long period (I've been in Italy 10 years now this time round), I know what he means. Especially when he talks of the two kinds of Italy (and of Italians): forward-looking versus inert. And the frustration underneath it all. "Unique" is a big word, too big for me. My knowledge nowhere near extends to enough of the rest of the world to make comparisons. But the institutionalization of the contradictions/dichotomies (call them what you will) inherent in Italian society and culture are pretty powerful. 

Moodywop's expression of the "bella figura" mentality as a "coping" strategy is particularly revealing. That's what we should be discussing: the origin of this strategy, the reason for it, and its relative effectiveness. If we want to become faintly political and/or anthropological about it (and this thread has certainly touched on these issues, one way or another, by now) we ought at least to admit that the ability to effect social and cultural change, and/or political reforms, in Italy is powerfully constrained by the prevalence of the bella figura mentality.

Bella figura: surprisingly (and revealingly), the phrase itself is barely used in Italy (perhaps it was once more common, I don't know). It's not that the desire to look good (despite the garbage, Berlusconi (whoops!), or the spilt coffee...), and keep up "appearances", is a consciously pursued objective. It's deeper than that. In Italy you don't go around reminding your fellow Italians: "Oy, watch out, your bella figura will suffer if you don't wear a smart jacket/only buy new, not second-hand books (!)/don't run for the bus" (or whatever). Italians don't need reminding. That's the whole point.

Equally, Italians don't need reminding that there are all sorts of things wrong with their country. They are painfully aware of the fact. In fact, some of those I've known who are most proud of their country are its most fervent critics. (That is also revealing, and there is nothing "superficial" about that.)

In this thread, amid a lot of stuff I feel is extraneous to the question at hand (a question which is admittedly a rather amorphous one, but a single question nonetheless), I feel one issue conspicuous by its absence is the matter of the sheer appeal of Italians themselves. As people. I don't want to be folkloristic about this (a word Italians might, and do use themselves), but, after all, what is one major attraction of Italy that brings huge numbers of people over here, apart from the weather/the art/the food etc etc? That great unspoken "feeling" (another "Italian" word) for the people who live here. I am amazed personally by the universality of the appeal of the Italians. That is a major "issue" which offsets, I feel, in scope and in its effect, the "problem" of the bella figura crisis-management strategy.

But I digress... slightly.


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## moodywop

> Equally, Italians don't need reminding that there are all sorts of things wrong with their country. They are painfully aware of the fact. In fact, *some of those I've known who are most proud of their country are its most fervent critics*. (That is also revealing, and there is nothing "superficial" about that.)


 
 



> But I digress... slightly.


 
Not at all. Thank you for a perceptive, stimulating contribution based on first-hand experience.

Sì, grazie davvero, dal profondo del cuore


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## Outsider

*Moodywop*, you and others here have tried to make it sound as if we completely misinterpreted what you wished to talk about, and as though all you wanted to was discuss the problems of Italy, and ignore the rest of the world. Well, if that was indeed the case, I suggest you shouldn't have written stuff like:



moodywop said:


> Having the Vatican on our soil (in our capital) is another specific, *unique* Italian peculiarity that Cuchu and Outsider's generalized statements would lead us to overlook. We are *the only country *(as far as I know - if I'm wrong please enlighten me) that has a special written agreement (Patti Lateranensi) with the Vatican, granting ludicrous privileges to the Vatican. They have* power of veto* over who can teach religion in schools. Religious teaching* must be limited to the Catholic religion* (the "religione di stato" )and not mention other creeds. Teachers have been dismissed at the local bishop's request because of their unorthodox lifestyle or views. It's outrageous. *Would this happen in any other country?* I'm all ears.


The implication that _only_ in Italy does religion interfere with politics inevitably invites comparisons with other countries.



moodywop said:


> I'm still awaiting Outsiders list of the "very few" countries that do not share some or most of our problems.


That was pretty flippant! I'm "still waiting" for you to react to some of my objections, too. Unless you think they're off-topic because they're not about Italy -- but then so are the few countries I mentioned.


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## moodywop

Outsider said:


> *Moodywop*, you and others here have tried to make it sound as if we completely misinterpreted what you wished to talk about, and as though all you wanted to was discuss the problems of Italy, and ignore the rest of the world. Well, if that was indeed the case, I suggest you shouldn't have written stuff like:


Outsider

That "stuff" was only written in response to *your *introduction of comparisons with other countries:



			
				Outsider said:
			
		

> *I think you're asking the wrong question. You should ask instead* "How did the U.S. (and _very few_ other nations) manage to escape the grip of burocracy and connections to the extent that they have?"
> 
> On a global scale, I think what you describe is the rule, not the exception. I've often wondered if this has anything to do with the fact that the U.S. are the oldest modern democracy, and one of the oldest capitalist nations in the world.


but was not what my original question was about (outsiders' perception of the two Italies mentioned by Barzini and many others; a focus on appearance as an obstacle to change).
I only responded to this off-topic digression to make it clear that, while I certainly do not argue that Italy is "unique", it is important not to lose sight of its "specificity" ( I believe "specific" and "unique" have different meanings - as "specifico" and "unico" have in Italian).

You could open a thread on "Are Italy's problems comparable to those of other countries" but I don't think it would lead to a fruitful discussion.

Lsp, GavinW and others understood my initial post. I honestly don't know what else I can do except invite people to re-read it and read the NYT's interview with Severgnini, which inspired my original post.

How can I argue with someone who says my original post doesn't mean what I say it means? I'm lost here.

PS I apologize if I sounded flippant


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## Outsider

moodywop said:


> How can I argue with someone who says my original post doesn't mean what I say it means?


Whom might that be?

I understood that your _original_ post was about Italy, but when you replied to my post (which was actually an attempt to convince *TimLA* that what you guys were saying happens in Italy is not such an oddity as it may seem to an American), I assumed you were willing to broaden the discussion. Otherwise, you could have just said "I do not wish to make comparisons between Italy and other countries. I just want to discuss _its_ problems". I realise now, though, that that was your intent.



moodywop said:


> PS I apologize if I sounded flippant


Apologies accepted.


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## erick

Carlo, perhaps it's a waste of your time and energy to attempt to discuss this topic with people _who have never lived in Italy_, who distort the point of this discussion, and who will never read this book.  Some people will discuss communism ad infinitum without ever having read Marx.  It's one thing to be an armchair observer, participating in a banquet of words.  For the rest of us who have lived in Italy, we know from experience that what you say is true, and that it is a meaningful topic for discussion ... though sadly not in this environment.

I ordered the book yesterday, it looks interesting.  Beppe Severgnini has also written for the _Economist_, and it's not just because I'm an economist that I say that the best survey of Italy and its strengths/weaknesses is this, published by the Economist last year.  If the topic of Italy and its systemic problems/advantages are of genuine interest to you, I recommend reading the entire survey.


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## TrentinaNE

Grazie del link, Erick.  Non vedo l'ora di leggere l'articolo questo weekend.  Quando ho un po' di più tempo (un sonno che non accede mai  ) cercherò anche il libro di Severgnini.

Elisabetta


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## GavinW

erick said:


> [...]attempt to discuss this topic with people _who have never lived in Italy_, who distort the point of this discussion, and who will never read this book.


 
Sadly, I'm forced to agree with you, Erick. But if there are such apparent barriers to communication as the innocent distinction between having lived/not having lived in Italy (or any particular country), there doesn't seem to be much hope for communication on less mundane international issues.


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## coppergirl

cuchuflete said:


> Sorry Carlo,
> Your digressions about the uniqueness of Italy totally miss the point. Italy is different from each and every other country on the face of the earth. It is Italian. It has its peculiarities.
> 
> Form over substance is neither an Italian invention nor an Italian monopoly. It may be a common problem in your country, but Italy shares that problem with many other nations. The manifestations are very similar, if not identical.
> The results are very similar, if not identical.
> 
> I vigorously disagree with your attempt to describe Italy as
> somehow special or even unusual in suffering from this disease. It's common throughout the world.
> 
> This thread has regaled us with tales of corruption. That's not uniquely Italian. There is plenty of corruption in my country and others. Influence peddling and exercise are common worldwide.


 
Hi everyone!

Wow--what a topic!

First off, Cuchuflete is right in that this sort of "appearance over substance" thing happens all around the world. However, I have been to China, Hong Kong (before it was part of the PRC), Germany, Luxembourg, Belgium, Holland, France, Spain, Canada, America (obviously as I grew up there), Ireland, Scotland, Kenya, Austria, Denmark, Germany, Switzerland and, naturally, Italy among other places. (I will stop there since this is becomming a long list, although I now live permanently in the UK).

Nowhere have I seen this idea of "bella figura" exemplified as greatly as in Italy.  
(Sorry, Cuchu, but it's the truth!  )

It is one of Italy's greatest strengths and is simultaneously one of its greatest weaknesses. 

Italy is typical of what might be called a high context country---highly dependent upon the interpersonal relationships as opposed to a low context country such as Germany, in which rules matter far more in terms of defining the culture than the interpersonal relationships. Put simply, in Germany it matters more what you know than whom you know, whilst in Italy the opposite is true.

As to whether or not the "bella figura" notion---the Italian tendency to cover a crumbling infrastructure with a magnificently decorated facade---prevents Italy from achieving an effective administrative structure is, for me, not really the point. I think it does have this effect, but I equally think that "bella figura" is so deeply etched into the national psyche as to make it an irremovable feature of the psycho-emotional landscape of Italy.

Looked at from an historical perspective, this theory might be borne out. Ancient Romans were rarely vanquished by their enemies (although the Celts still lay some claim to having staved them off for a spell!  ). What destroyed Rome came from within---centuries upon centuries of corruption and nepotism which undermined any efforts at legitimate government--- and yet from all appearances opulence and order were maintained. The best example of this was when Nero fiddled whilst Rome burned---talk about "bella figura"!  [Although for musicians out there, "fiddled" in this sense is traditionally considered as referring more to his irresponsible and insufficient behaviour in the midst of a crisis, rather than to his abilities on any stringed instruments!---Sorry!  ]

In any case, my own view is that not only is this trait exceptionally "Italian" as a characteristic (and this comes from someone who spent some time in China ---another high context culture---and who speaks Mandarin as well, for what it is worth), but also that to remove it would actually be to destroy Italy for me. It is precisely the co-existence of the beautiful with the sinister that I find so interesting about Italy. It is for this reason that I am also one of those people who adores music in minor keys and bittersweet dark chocolate. There is a certain tantalizing disequilibrium about Italy that other countries just don't have, despite what both Italians and non-Italians have said previously in this thread. 

For me, if that were gone and Italy became as orderly and sanitized as Germany, well, what would be the point of going there?  (Sorry, Germans!)

Just my two cents! 

Cheers!


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## Nate in California

> What destroyed Rome came from within---centuries upon centuries of corruption and nepotism which undermined any efforts at legitimate government--- and yet from all appearances opulence and order were maintained.


 
VERY interesting, Copper. I've never seen the bella figura traced all the way back to the Romans, although it of course makes sense. 

I also agree that Italy without disorder and chaos just wouldn't be the same.


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## moodywop

Erick

Thank you for telling us about a very interesting article:



> AT FIRST blush, life in Italy still seems sweet enough...Yet beneath this sweet surface, many things seem to have turned sour





> The serene republic is now little more than a tourist attraction, however beguiling. Could this become the fate of Italy as a whole?


 

_Addio Dolce Vita_
(The Economist)

My point exactly.


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## Silvia B

Really interesting thread....

I think moodywoop had something against Italy in that period?
 haha, no, no, I don't want to start a discussion again.

"Bella Figura" ... mmm... we (Italians) never talk about that actually. I think it is inside us since we were born, so we do not have to talk about that! 
Yes, there is something like that inside us, but not more than in other countries (except all those clothes talks we've had recently, because then we DO care about "fare bella figura"...!)

In everyday life, yes, it counts more what you wear than who you are!
But that is usually something that happens when you don't know someone.
Though we do comment how people behave, dress up, etc.
Mums teach us since we are little to follow a some kind of rule that people have to respect...but, hey, if you want to be free just don't respect the rule! 

Have you ever been inside an Italian house!?!?!?!?? Never really!? You should try it.
I can say that because I went abroad and visited homes abroad. There I understood that we are different!!! 
I still remember all the mess I saw 
And then I remember my mum shouting to clean up my bedroom, clean everything when I have just a little time, wash up at late night because "I can't sleep knowing that there is all that mess downstairs!" hahha 
Everything must always be perfect. But sometimes just because WE want it to be perfect 
While danish are living with their shoes all around the house! My mum would die!!!!!!! and so would I ....  afterall...


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