# omega vs. omicron and transliteration in general



## favonius

Are there any rules when to use omega and when omicron? They are pronounced the same right?


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## caledonianstill

No rules. 
In modern Greek they are pronounced the same.
omega means big/long o, omikron means short/small o. In ancient Greek omega lasted more than omikron. Compare the difference for example to the sound of /u/ in English: short in p*u*t /put/ and long b*oo*k /bu:k/


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## favonius

thanks!

so if I want to transcribe the name Sarmiento, do you think it is better to use omicron since it is a short O? thanks again, very helpful!


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## jazyk

> Compare the difference for example to the sound of /u/ in English: short in p*u*t /put/ and long b*oo*k /bu:k/


Both put and book have a short oo sound. Maybe you could say: compare the sound in put and that in loot.


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## Fred_C

favonius said:


> thanks!
> 
> so if I want to transcribe the name Sarmiento, do you think it is better to use omicron since it is a short O? thanks again, very helpful!


Hi,
usually, you never use omega to transcribe a foreign word, I think.


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## balgior

caledonianstill said:


> No rules.


Well, that is not completely true. For example, active verbs end in -ω! Never in -ο. The opposite happens with neutral nouns. And there are other rules too. So, apart from these rules, there are no rules! 



favonius said:


> so if I want to transcribe the name Sarmiento, do you think it is better to use omicron since it is a short O?


Yes, you should use an '-ο'. Even if it was a long 'o', there would be no reason to use '-ω', as there is no such thing as "long -o" in Modern Greek. Particularly for names, only feminine names that end in 'o' end using the suffix '-ω'.


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## favonius

thank you to all!

now comes the other question that I forgot about: what letter should I use for the "i" in Sarmiento? I never thought it would be so hard to transcribe a name...


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## Fred_C

To transcribe a foreign word, you must use iota and nothing else, I think.
There is a one to one correspondance between iota and the latin letter I, since the Roman era.
Other combinations just happen to be pronounced I in modern greek, but classicaly, H corresponds to E in latin, OI corresponds to OE (or to E, depending on the words), Y to Y, and EI to EI.(or to I, depending on the words.)


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## favonius

that clarifies a lot of things, so whenever I want to transcribe foreign names of Latin origin, I use ο and ι for o and i respectivley. Extremely helpful, thank you so much. 

So basically the name will look like this Σαρμιεντο


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## Fred_C

Yes, but be careful : Some words may look latin to you, but they will be of greek origin. For example, the continent Europe is called after a ancient Greek muse "Εὐρώπη" with an Omega. For this reason, the currency Euro is spelt with an omega in greek.


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## favonius

thanks for the clarification; actually i am studying Latin right now so i kind of have some general idea which words are of Latin and which of Greek origin so that will guide me a bit; funny, but we just read the story of Europa and Zeus transformed into a bull 

thanks again!!


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## caledonianstill

jazyk *oo* of b*oo*k and l*oo*t are not even the same sound!


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## caledonianstill

there are many words transcribed in Greek using omega like ΣΚ*Ω*ΤΙΑ, ΤΖ*Ω*ΡΖ, ΒΟΣΤ*Ω*ΝΗ


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## jazyk

> jazyk *oo* of b*oo*k and l*oo*t are not even the same sound!


That's exactly my point. The first is short and the second is long.


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## caledonianstill

No, they have different sounds. They are not the same sound.


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## anthodocheio

caledonianstill said:


> there are many words transcribed in Greek using omega like ΣΚ*Ω*ΤΙΑ, ΤΖ*Ω*ΡΖ, ΒΟΣΤ*Ω*ΝΗ


 
Also french words ending in -aux like "ρεσώ"...


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## orthophron

caledonianstill said:


> there are many words transcribed in Greek using omega like ΣΚ*Ω*ΤΙΑ, ΤΖ*Ω*ΡΖ, ΒΟΣΤ*Ω*ΝΗ


 
Hi. I thought it might be necessary to remember some rules of "Demotic" greek language.
Lexicology Center of University of Athens suggests that :
Words come from foreign languages are spelled in the most simple way (i.e. τρ*έ*νο for tr*ai*n, πάρτ*ι* for part*y*) except 
(a) those containing greek parts i.e. μοτοσ*υ*κλέτα < moto*cycle*tta < motor+ κ*ύ*κλος ("*υ*" is kept),
(b) those coined in greek long time ago, i.e. μαντ*ή*λι < Lat. mant*e*le ("*η*" is kept), 
(c) names and place-names so that "the law of reversibility" would be obeyed. i.e. Σαίξπηρ <-> Shakespeare. So, an "ω" in a name wouldn't surprise me. I remember the spelling for Denis Diderot (Ντιντερώ) in an old book issued in eras of "Katharevousa".



> Originally Posted By *Fred_C*
> the continent Europe is called after a ancient Greek muse "Εὐρώπη" with an Omega. For this reason, the currency Euro is spelt with an omega in greek.


However, this is another mistake **WE make.
If the word is considered introduced to greek, it must be spelled "ευρό" and remain indeclinable and unchanged in plural.
If it is considered greek, it must belong to one of greek noun categories; it must have certain declension. It is almost unbelievable for a newly invented greek noun to be of neuter gender, end in "O" sound and be spelled with omega. 
As a prefix (ευρω-) it should keep omega since it would mostly mean associated with ευρώπη/ευρωπαϊκός.


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## caledonianstill

I have never seen the word ΠΑΡΤΙ. Everywhere I see the word ΠΑΡΤΥ.


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## caledonianstill

Almost ALL the newly invented greek nouns have neuter gender.


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## orthophron

caledonianstill said:


> Almost ALL the newly invented greek nouns have neuter gender.


To be noun, 100% greek AND neuter AND indeclinable AND ending in "ω" at the same time is ... Scandal!



caledonianstill said:


> I have never seen the word ΠΑΡΤΙ. Everywhere I see the word ΠΑΡΤΥ.


I personally love it too.

There is an interesting article here: 
http://tovima.dolnet.gr/print_article.php?e=B&f=12454&m=B04&aa=2
(for greek speakers).


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## Fred_C

orthophron said:


> However, this is another mistake **WE make.
> If the word is considered introduced to greek, it must be spelled "ευρό" and remain indeclinable and unchanged in plural.
> If it is considered greek, it must belong to one of greek noun categories; it must have certain declension. It is almost unbelievable for a newly invented greek noun to be of neuter gender, end in "O" sound and be spelled with omega.


Hi,
I am a beginner in demotic greek, teaching it to myself using a method written in the 80's, before the introduction of the Euro. I only know the spelling of this currency because it is written on the banknotes, you know.
Are you saying that the greek word EYPΩ is indeclinable?
If not, how do you decline it?
Has anybody come up with a katharevoussa version of this word? is it declined?


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## caledonianstill

orthophron I said "I have never seen the word ΠΑΡΤ*I".* 
It is the first time I see someone copying/pasting a quote and then changing what is inside just to provoke someone!


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## caledonianstill

I said you posted something that it was supposed to be my Quote, but as everybody can see it is not, you have *changed *my quote, that is totally inappropriate.


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## orthophron

Fred_C said:


> Are you saying that the greek word EYPΩ is indeclinable?
> If not, how do you decline it?
> Has anybody come up with a katharevoussa version of this word? is it declined?


 
Yes, it`s indeclinable and in my opinion, its spelling would be justified if "ευρώ" was defined something like ... "abbreviation of ευρωπαϊκό νόμισμα", otherwise, rules of either demotic or katharevoussa are not obeyed; that is no such word can exist (personal opinion).


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## Stevo_Evo_22

So, should it be "ΠΑΡΤΥ" οr "ΠΑΡΤΙ"?


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## caledonianstill

Google: *861,000* for *ΠΑΡΤΥ**, **649,000* for *ΠΑΡΤΙ.*
*ΠΑΡΤΥ wins!*
Listen, academy of Athens (and whoever else is responsible) tend/want to simplify the Greek language. They have killed not only words from foreign origin but also pure Greek words and they impose writing more and more words with iota (μείγμα->μίγμα) and omicron (Μανώλης->Μανόλης), they delete consonants (βλέμμα->βλέμα) etc.
Something like what is happening with Spanish and Portuguese orthography the last 100 years but in a smaller degree (yet).


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## Stevo_Evo_22

Thanks for the clarification  To relate this back to the omega vs. omicron topic, I will give my opinion.

As a native speaker of English with a Greek background, I sometimes find it sad that the Greek language is absorbing words as they are in English-I would much rather see the Greeks spell it the way they think is appropriate.  As an example, I don't think they should be simplifying all 'o' sounds to omicron, just because in English it is.  I guess with 'party', when spelt with a 'y', it just seems like a cheap English import

Just my opinion lol

Steven


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## caledonianstill

And in English you write for example "analysis" and not "uhnaluhsis", "vocabulary" and not "vohkabyuhleree", does that mean you "like cheap Greek/Latin imports"?


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## orthophron

Stevo_Evo_22 said:


> So, should it be "ΠΑΡΤΥ" οr "ΠΑΡΤΙ"?





Stevo_Evo_22 said:


> As a native speaker of English with a Greek background, I sometimes find it sad that the Greek language is absorbing words as they are in English-I would much rather see the Greeks spell it the way they think is appropriate. As an example, I don't think they should be simplifying all 'o' sounds to omicron, just because in English it is. I guess with 'party', when spelt with a 'y', it just seems like a cheap English import


 

Foreign words reach us orally. Generally one doesn't speak the particular foreign language and thus does not know its orthography. This is the rationale the rule is based on.
"Party" may be a well known word but this is not a good reason to make the exception. Our kids are taught to spell it as "πάρτι" at schools.


I posted earlier 



> Words come from foreign languages are spelled in the most simple way (i.e. τρ*έ*νο for tr*ai*n, πάρτ*ι* for part*y*) except
> (a) those containing greek parts i.e. μοτοσ*υ*κλέτα < moto*cycle*tta < motor+ κ*ύ*κλος ("*υ*" is kept),
> (b) those coined in greek long time ago, i.e. μαντ*ή*λι < Lat. mant*e*le ("*η*" is kept),
> (c) names and place-names so that "the law of reversibility" would be obeyed. i.e. Σαίξπηρ <-> Shakespeare.


It should be pointed out that these suggestions of Lexicology Center came as a *corrective* action; to restrict rather than encourage the tendency of the youth of today for "levelling".
I deliberately cited examples with words that had begun to follow the general rule of simplification of imported words (μαντ*ί*λι, μοτοσ*ι*κλέτα), while they shouldn't have.
It is suggested that at least we treat with respect words that return rather than invade our language as well as imported ones, coined long ago.

See you around


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## Stevo_Evo_22

caledonianstill said:


> And in English you write for example "analysis" and not "uhnaluhsis", "vocabulary" and not "vohkabyuhleree", does that mean you "like cheap Greek/Latin imports"?


 
That's a fair point It's just that you often find a different type of word imported into English than into other languages. Example in Italian-words such as 'sexy', 'party'.

I suppose it's just due to the fact that we live in a different age...

orthophron, it's exactly as you said-it reaches foreigners orally, so it should be spelt as you would hear it in Greek, instead of the way it would be transcribed, as in the example given of 'party'.


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## caledonianstill

Obviously they have to use the words sexy and party as long as the young italians (of 3-4 decades ago I guess) started to use it. The Italian government couldn't/cannot say: "stop using sexy/party start using an artificial italianized version: e.g. secsi/sessi".

Regarding Modern Greek, using just iota and omicron it is just a discrimination against other vowels. Let's write ΠΑΡΤΗ, ΠΑΡΤΟΙ, ΠΑΡΤΕΙ, ΠΑΡΤΥ, ΠΑΡΤΥΙ! Furthermore they make ridiculous use of vowels: no one says ΦΛΟΡΙΝΤΑ, neither the English speaking nor the Spanish speaking residents of Florida. So either the earlier rules of translitaration should be used: ΦΛΟΡΙΔΑ or I dunno let the academy of athens find something that is phonetically close to the English pronunciation of Florida. Something like: ΦΛΑΡΙΝΤΕ, I know it sounds stupid, but ΦΛΟΡΙΝΤΑ sounds more stupid!


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## Stevo_Evo_22

Yes, caledonianstill, you are right.  As I said, if it's in a movie in America, chances are it's going to be in every language.  So if I wanted to spell 'party' in Greek, I should spell it with an upsilon or an iota?


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## caledonianstill

I have never written it as "ΠΑΡΤΙ". And I do not plan to do that. I guess the transliteration used for thousands of years is much better than the one academy of athens uses (against the common sense) the last  10 years. They have even changed the spelling of word ΠΑΠΠΟΥΣ and they spell it ΠΑΠΟΥΣ!


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## Stevo_Evo_22

caledonianstill said:


> I have never written it as "ΠΑΡΤΙ". And I do not plan to do that. I guess the transliteration used for thousands of years is much better than the one academy of athens uses (against the common sense) the last 10 years. They have even changed the spelling of word ΠΑΠΠΟΥΣ and they spell it ΠΑΠΟΥΣ!


 
Thanks  It's true, sometimes the "higher" powers just change things for the sake of it!


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## anthodocheio

caledonianstill said:


> Google: *861,000* for *ΠΑΡΤΥ**, **649,000* for *ΠΑΡΤΙ.*
> *ΠΑΡΤΥ wins!*


 
And the only reason, why ΠΑΡΤΙ has those numbers is because microsoft WORD finds ΠΑΡΤΥ wrong.


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## orthophron

For greek learners who visit this thread looking for information, *in the name of accuracy* I consider it necessary to put the record straight. 
First there is no rule to transform any double consonant to single in a greek word just like that. 
Whenever one finds a word with different spelling than expected, he should suspect that there might be a *good reason* for it; it is not necessarily a ruinous result of some new rule of an academy.
It can be :
a) a completely different word (eg κόμμα, but κόμα), 
b) an attested alternative spelling (eg μείγμα and μίγμα),
c) an alternative spelling due to obscure root or
d) simply a *wrong spelling* (eg βλέμα, παπούς). Google is full of spelling errors.

Trancription of "*Florida*". Assuming this term has been introduced through english (flQrId@) * it has been soundly (or stupidly) left to us as "Φλώριδα" or "Φλώριντα" with the inevitable phonemic compromise, by the *old rule* which, I can see, is highly respected. This rule is *still applied* to names and place-names, but the strong argument of those who write "Φλόριδα" (for at least the town of Spain) has to be recognized: the word is spanish.
_______________________________________
Who breaks the rules is to blame, not the ruler.

* "_Nimrod phonetics" fonts_ _may be needed for display of phonetic symbols._


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## Strategos

caledonianstill said:


> I have never seen the word ΠΑΡΤΙ. Everywhere I see the word ΠΑΡΤΥ.


As far as I can remember I've only ever seen ΠΑΡΤΙ, but in all fairness this is from an exercise book and not the real world.


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## eros_man_gr

Where to begin...well, first of all, "ο" and "ω" are _always_ pronounced the same; even if you can find some dialect where some vowels still have a long pronounciation, it is not an aspect of Standard Modern Greek. _All _vowels are short in pronounciation; it is only in Ancient Greek that you have the distinction between short and long.


As a general rule, words with "o" that are transcribed into Greek use the omicron, and you should definitely use it when transcribing a new word or name. Omega is sometimes used to represent something that was once a diphthong in another language, like "au" or "eau" in French. 


When it comes to the i-sounds, it is a bit more complicated. It is of course "recommended" by grammarians to use the iota in transcription, and it is the most common use, but in many cases, greeks have simply not been able to agree on one single form. As an example, I still see both "Στοκχόλμη" and "Στοκχόλμι" used for "Stockholm"; the former is a bit more modern, and the latter is a bit older, but both can be seen. My recommendation is still to keep it simple, and use iota always in transcriptions for modern words and names. Discussing "party" even further would be futile, I fear, because as with so many words, there just aren't clear-cut rules. Myself, I support variety, so I think there should be two possible spellings, when it is so clear that so many consider one to be the better one, and either one can make a legitimate argument. Obviously, we can't have a dozen different spellings for every word, but a few double spellings aren't that complicated, especially when you know what it means. Oh, and I agree more with the older use here: I always write "ΠΑΡΤΥ".


The transcription of "Sarmiento" is satisfactory, just remember to use the accent too: "Σαρμιέντο" (assuming that is how you emphasize it).


Finally, a word on gender. It is true that words often become neuter (το), but when they come from languages that have masculine and female gender, they can keep the same gender as before; this is usually the case with words that have been borrowed into Greek from other languages long ago. Also, don't forget: personal names _always_ keep the same gender, because in Greek, proper names use articles too ("O Σαρμιέντο").


I hope this helps! Good luck!


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## orthophron

orthophron said:


> ... a completely different word (eg κόμμα, but κόμα)...


I mean ..."κόμμα, but κώμα"...

[_Once noticed I couldn't leave it uncorrected_]


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