# Mach es wenigen recht; vielen gefallen ist schlimm.



## Relentless Flashbackin'

Hi!
I've a problem with a Schiller quote.
_"Kannst du nicht allen gefallen durch deine Tat und dein Kunstwerk, Mach es wenigen recht; vielen gefallen ist schlimm"_

On the web you can find this translation
_"If you cannot please everyone with your actions and your art, you should satisfy a few. To please many is dangerous."_

But as far as I am concerned it's flawed.
There's no _"wenn",_ so why they are translatin' with _"if you cannot"_, it should be _"you can't"_.
Then there's _"schlimm"_ that means terrible or bad, so why it's translated with _"dangerous"_?
And finally the major problem
_"Mach es wenigen recht"_
I think that it's not _"you should"_, I think that _"mach"_ is a command verb but I don't know how to translate _"mach es wenigen recht"_ in a correct english.
And what about the rest?
"You can't please everyone with your actions and your art, _mach es wenigen recht_. To please many is wrong"
Is it right?

Can you help me? Thank you!


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## Demiurg

Relentless Flashbackin' said:


> There's no _"wenn",_ so why they are translatin' with _"if you cannot"_, it should be _"you can't"_.


The "if" in the translation is correct. "Kannst du nicht allen gefallen  ..." is an unintroduced conditional clause. There's no equivalent of this construction in English.


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## manfy

Regarding the second part:
mach es wenigen recht   ->  you should satisfy a few

Yes, the German version is imperative but considering the tone of the aphorism, a well-meaning recommendation ("you should satisfy") is fine and actually more appropriate. But if you must, imperative can work as well.
The general idea behind it (for me at least) is something like:
_If you can't please all, please only a select few; pleasing many is schlimm._​
Now, translating 'schlimm' is tough. It can have a broad range of meanings depending on context and depending on intended nuance.
Personally I don't like 'dangerous'; 'bad' is a word that has an equally broad range of meanings - for this aphorism maybe too broad. I'll leave it to somebody else to find a fitting English word.


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## bearded

Demiurg said:


> There's no equivalent of this construction in English.


Well, actually there are still  'traces' of that 'Germanic' construction:  _Should you come to me (= if you'd come to me), I'd be glad _or _Had he won a price (=if he had won a price), I'd be happy..._


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## manfy

True! It's called "inversion"; but in English it now only works with subjunctive mood, in German we can do it with indicative too.
_If you can't please all, ...  =  Should you not be able to please all, ..._​
Looking at the original again, I'd say the core meaning (for me (!) ) is best expressed with:
_If you can't please all, please a select few; trying to please many is no good._​


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## JClaudeK

manfy said:


> Now, translating 'schlimm' is tough. It can have a broad range of meanings depending on context and depending on intended nuance.


I think that here an equivilant would be "fragwürdig".
=> dubious, supect (?)


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## Hutschi

Relentless Flashbackin' said:


> "Kannst du nicht allen gefallen durch deine Tat und dein Kunstwerk, Mach es wenigen recht;





Demiurg said:


> The "if" in the translation is correct. "Kannst du nicht allen gefallen ..." is an unintroduced conditional clause. There's no equivalent of this construction in English.



I will apply the  transformation, just as example:
_"Wenn du nicht allen durch deine Tat und dein Kunstwerk gefallen kannst, (dann) mache es wenigen recht;_ 

The unintroduced form often has an elevated style. The "wenn" form sounds more default.


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## Boyar

Relentless Flashbackin' said:


> vielen gefallen ist schlimm





manfy said:


> pleasing many is schlimm


What about _wicked_?
... trying to please many is a wicked thing to do


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## manfy

Boyar said:


> What about _wicked_?
> ... trying to please many is a wicked thing to do


For me, that's too strong and it has too narrow a meaning. "Schlimm" has a broad meaning with countless connotations and that's what makes this aphorism work well in many different contexts.

The problem with aphorisms is that they do not have any explicit context. They are designed to be figuratively applicable to many different situations. In a very specific situation, 'wicked', dubious, suspect, and probably many other synonyms may work well, but as a general, context-free "wisdom", you need a generic word with many different connotations such as "schlimm".
Perfect translations probably don't exist in most languages. You just have to try and find the closest match.


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## Kajjo

manfy said:


> Personally I don't like 'dangerous'; 'bad' is a word that has an equally broad range of meanings - for this aphorism maybe too broad. I'll leave it to somebody else to find a fitting English word.


I like "bad" the most, because it has an equally broad range as "schlimm" and also the style is the same: Not elevated, but part of very basic vocabulary.


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## anahiseri

*schlimm* is really difficult to express in English in one word, and it' s NOT *wicked*.
It means "*bad*" in the sense of _harmful, inadequate, unpleasant,_ _a_nd I'm afraid there is no other adjective that renders the meaning more clearly
Agree with Kajjo


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## Hutschi

Does "grievous" work?

grievous
schwer, schmerzlich, schlimm, schwerwiegend, betrüblich, groß
 (Google translation)


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## Relentless Flashbackin'

Thank you to everybody, I learned a lot of things with just one question, I'll save all your answers.

I think that since


anahiseri said:


> *schlimm* is really difficult to express in English in one word



The best translation coud be similar to the one that Manfy suggested


manfy said:


> _trying to please many is no good._



* Pleasin' many isn't wise*

What do you think?


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## Hutschi

Kajjo said:


> I like "bad" the most, because it has an equally broad range as "schlimm" and also the style is the same: Not elevated, but part of very basic vocabulary.


"Bad" has the advantage that you can apply it also to yourself. The same with "schlimm".

It is not only bad to/for the others but also to/for the one we speak about.


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## Kajjo

Relentless Flashbackin' said:


> *Pleasin' many isn't wise*
> 
> What do you think?


"wise" has a connotation of intention (it is wise to do something) while "schlimm" is more about the result or consequences. 

I like both "bad" and "no good".


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## anahiseri

if you compare *grim* with this definition of schlimm it's not so far off
very serious or gloomy.


stern, forbidding, uninviting, unapproachable, aloof, distant
especially of a place) unattractive or forbidding.
"rows of grim, dark housing developments"


 bleak, dreary, dismal, dingy, wretched, miserable, disheartening, depressing, cheerless, comfortless, joyless, gloomy, sombre, uninviting, drab

*schlimm
schwerwiegend und üble Folgen nach sich ziehend
in hohem Maße unangenehm, unerfreulich; negativ (2a); übel, arg*


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## elroy

If you can’t make everyone happy with your actions and your artwork, do right by a select few.  Being on everyone’s good side is bad news.


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## bearded

elroy said:


> do right


  That renders the German expression just perfectly, I think.
I also like bad news.


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## berndf

bearded said:


> That renders the German expression just perfectly.


I completely disagree. _To do right by someone_ means to act and/or talk in a way that is fair and just to a person. _Es jemanden recht machen_ means to please someone, to act and/or talk in a way that accommodates the persons wishes and/or preferences. In particular,  the German expression does not mean that the person deserves this accommodating treatment; I should even say that it is mainly used in a negative sense where being forthcoming towards a person's wishes is inappropriate or cowardly. I see only very little overlap between these expressions.


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## bearded

I understood elroy's expression according to the following meaning:


> in the appropriate manner; properly:_ do it right next time!_


(English definitions: right)<--
If you can't …. then do (it at least) right ...


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## berndf

bearded said:


> I understood elroy's expression according to the following meaning:
> 
> (English definitions: right)<--
> If you can't …. then do (it at least) right ...


_To do right *by *someone _is an idiom in its own right. But also your understanding has the same deficiency: it implies _appropriateness_. As I said, the German expression has no such connotation. Rather the opposite, it often describes *in*appropriate forthcomingness.


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## JClaudeK

berndf said:


> it often describes *in*appropriate forthcomingness.



"es allen recht machen wollen"  = allen gefallen wollen



*es* *jemandem* *recht* *machen*jemanden zufrieden stellen; jemandes Wünschen nachkommen


Wer allen gefallen will, stellt niemanden zufrieden.

Deshalb
_"Kannst du nicht allen gefallen_  [....] _mach es wenigen recht_".* ≠* do right by


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## elroy

It seems I misunderstood the German expression.  Here’s an update based on the feedback:

If you can’t make everyone happy with your actions and your artwork, *humor* only a few. Being on everyone’s good side is bad news.


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## bearded

elroy said:


> It seems I misunderstood the German expression


...oops,  I made the same mistake.


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## manfy

elroy said:


> If you can’t make everyone happy with your actions and your artwork, *humor* only a few. Being on everyone’s good side is bad news.


Yes, that may work well as an aphorism for somebody who's trying too hard to please everybody around them, but the style would be too casual, for instance, for Klimt's painting "Nuda Veritas".

Klimt used Schiller's line in that piece and the article explains:


> [...]
> The mirror in her hand expresses and emphasizes the painting’s meaning: *artistic truthfulness without compromises as demanded by the artists of the Secession* who elected Klimt as their first president. This is also the message of the lines from Friedrich Schiller’s “Xenien”: “KANNST DU NICHT ALLEN GEFALLEN DUCH DEINE THAT UND DEIN KUNSTWERK – MACH ES WENIGEN RECHT: VIELEN GEFALLEN IST SCHLIMM“ *(if you cannot please everyone with your actions and your artwork – please only a few: to please many is bad*“). [...]


Since Klimt is fairly well known internationally, this might actually be the formal translation within the art world - but it could also be just a quite literal translation by the author of the article.

Klimt's intention and interpretation seems clear:
If an artist is trying to please many then their art gets compromised, they become commercial artists and they become mediocre. It's better to stay true to yourself and true to the arts by pleasing only a select few. They will become a loyal following and they might grow over time and the artist's work remains uncorrupted.
If you compromise to please many, nobody will truly be pleased in the end by that mediocre art, neither the audience nor the artist nor the arts as such -- and that is _schlimm_! .


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## Relentless Flashbackin'

Thank you again to all the suggestions.
I finally opted for a paraphrase.

You can't please everyone with your actions and your art so satisfy only a few because pleasing everyone isn't wise.
(paraphrase of a quote by Johann Christoph Friedrich von Schiller)

But I'd like to know if the German paraphrase is correct because my German is really bad.

Man kann nicht allen gefallen durch deine Tat und dein Kunstwerk, also befriedige Sie nur wenigen weil allen gefallen ist nicht klug.
(umschreibung eines Zitats von Johann Christoph Friedrich von Schiller)

Thank you.


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## Kajjo

Relentless Flashbackin' said:


> Man kann nicht allen gefallen durch deine Tat und dein Kunstwerk


Man/deine does not fit together. Either use "Man kann... durch seine" or use more closely to the original "Du kannst... deine".



Relentless Flashbackin' said:


> also befriedige Sie nur wenigen


That part doesn't work at all. Why suddenly "Sie"? And wrong declination of "wenigen":

_also befriedigen Sie nur wenige_ <polite form, not fitting here, but at least correctly declined>
_also befriedige nur wenige_ <personal form correctly declined>

Also note that "befriedigen" has a sexual connotation and is does bot fit here anyway. "gefallen wollen" or "recht machen" is "to want to please" not "to want to satisfy"!



Relentless Flashbackin' said:


> ...nur wenige*,* weil allen gefallen ist nicht klug.


Note the comma because "weil". 

Also note that "klug" is not a good paraphrase for "schlimm" (bad, disadvantageous). It's adds an interpretation that is possible but not expressed in the original.


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## Relentless Flashbackin'

Thank you so much, my German is really "schlimm", ah! ah! ah!
That's why there are a lot of wrong declinations!



Kajjo said:


> Also note that "befriedigen" has a sexual connotation and is does bot fit here anyway. "gefallen wollen" or "recht machen" is "to want to please" not "to want to satisfy"!



Oops! Wrong turn, wrong turn!

Here's the new version followin' your suggestion.
"du kannst nicht allen gefallen durch deine Tat und dein Kunstwerk, also gefalle nur wenige, weil allen gefallen ist schlimm."
I used _gefalle_ because this have to be an imperative.

And what about this part in brackets?
Is it correct?
(umschreibung eines Zitats von Johann Christoph Friedrich von Schiller) 

Thank you.


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## JClaudeK

Relentless Flashbackin' said:


> "*D*u kannst nicht allen gefallen durch deine Tat und dein Kunstwerk, also gefalle nur wenige*n*, weil allen gefallen schlimm  *ist*."
> I used _gefalle_ because this has to be an imperative.
> 
> And what about this part in brackets?
> (*U*mschreibung eines Zitats von Johann Christoph Friedrich von Schiller)


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## manfy

> "*D*u kannst nicht allen gefallen durch deine Tat und dein Kunstwerk, also gefalle nur wenige*n*, weil allen gefallen schlimm  *ist*."


Sorry, that doesn't work for me semantically.
I think you must keep the pitch 'allen -> wenigen -> vielen'. With your current version you're saying: You *can't please all*, so only please a *few *because pleasing *all *is bad. 

So at the very least you should change it to:
"Du kannst nicht allen gefallen durch deine Tat und dein Kunstwerk, also gefalle nur wenigen, weil *vielen *zu gefallen schlimm  ist."

But beyond that, as soon as you add the remark "*Umschreibung *eines Zitats..." you can actually use any form, because the reader will know that this is just some interpretation or your own interpretation of the Schiller line.


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## Relentless Flashbackin'

That's great! Thank you!
Now it will in the end credits of every episode!


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