# pronunciation: 'th' / ths --- clothes months maths Smith's [before 's'/ -ths, -thes]



## BorisDtt

I find it quite difficult to pronounce the ending consonant blends "nths". 
Can I pronounce it as "monz" with the "th" sound dropped?


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## mplsray

BorisDtt said:


> I find it quite difficult to pronounce the ending consonant blends "nths".
> Can I pronoun it as "monz" with the "th" sound dropped?



The Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary gives the following as pronunciation variants of _months:_

/mʌns/

/mʌnts/

(The symbol used by that dictionary for /ʌ/ is /ə/.)

For what it's worth, that was the only dictionary which gave those pronunciations.


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## ewie

I wouldn't worry _too much_ about it, Boris.  Most native-speakers find the combination /nθs/ virtually impossible to pronounce, and will ~ despite what they may *claim *about how they pronounce it ~ 'reduce' it to /ns/ or /nts/ in normal speech


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## fmcti

I was look some answer to this question for a long time. Thanks guys!


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## BorisDtt

Thanks for your replies


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## vodoomoth

Hi,

  My native language is French so a correct pronunciation of 'th' whether voiced or voiceless wasn't to be expected but I worked it out. I even like the dreaded 'th' when it's followed by an 'r' (threat, through, thrifty…) or in 'theft'.

However, judging from what I hear in movies and TV news channels – I live in France so not so many opportunities to hear English speakers in person, 'th' is not fully pronounced in the plural of words ending in 'th'. What I hear sounds to my foreign ears like either a 't' or nothing at all! The two words I hear most often with that pattern are 'months' and 'clothes' (the noun that means "garments", not the verb). For instance, in the first episode of The Big Bang Theory, the blonde girl says "clothes" as if it were "cloooZ".

So far, I have inferred from speakers I have heard that an ending 'ths' – as in 'months' – sounds like a 't' followed by an 's' while an ending 'thes' in nouns – as in 'clothes' – sounds like a 'z'. It's a different pronunciation than for instance on this online dictionary.

My question to native English speakers: what is the usual vocalization of 'th' in the final syllable of plural words? Is there a single pronunciation? Does it change depending on the context or the word?

I am asking because I wondered how the plural of 'breath' should sound in "take a few deep breaths". The most prominent difficulty – to me – of speaking English is how varied the pronunciation of a single character sequence can be compared to latin languages like French, Italian or Spanish. Before you start denying it, please see this blog post or read this out "Though, through, plough, or dough, or cough?" To me, the pronunciation is very often unpredictable when I know the spelling; the most striking example I've ever come across is "boatswain".


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## entangledbank

The two words you have mentioned are perhaps exceptional. First, 'clothes' has a regular pronunciation with voiced [ðz], and an alternative without the [ð]. In other words ending in [ð] it is always retained - such as 'lathes'.

Second, the more complex cluster [nθs] is perhaps more likely to be reduced than simple [θs]. Each of the three sounds is of some duration, so perhaps some people would simplify to something like [nts] or [ns]. It isn't a regular change, but it makes sense.

However, in ordinary words ending in [θ] it is either retained and [θs] is pronounced - as in 'Goths', 'breaths', 'faiths', 'cloths' - or the whole thing is voiced to [ðz] as in 'baths', 'paths' and 'truths'. You just have to learn which words change [θ] to [ðz]. (There is a very slight AmE/BrE difference, but mostly we agree on the list.)


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## Lyndon

Entangledbank seems to be much more lenient than I am.

I've heard people say "cloze" and "cloves" when they mean "clothes", and I've heard people say "mumfs" and "muns" when they mean "months". Just because some people use those pronunciations, doesn't make them correct -- in the sense that, the more your pronunciation differs from other people's, the more difficult it is to understand what you mean.


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## vodoomoth

Thank you for the replies.



Lyndon said:


> the more your pronunciation differs from other people's, the more difficult it is to understand what you mean.


Which is the reason why I strive for a pronunciation that is as "correct" as possible.

 But "months" said as "muns" is so common (I think I've even heard it in video games voice acting, e.g. HAWX 2) that I've started to wonder whether there was a rule unknown to me that allowed dropping some sounds, or whether it was just sheer laziness. Now I know I won't sound weird if I follow the phonetic transcriptions.


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## hugh6

<< Moderator's note: This discussion has been added to a previous thread. >>

Words like maths, months puzzle me a lot when it comes to their pronunciation. I know the phonetic transcriptions but how can we corretly pronounce them ? I feel they sound like math, math, etc.  Thanks!!!


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## sb70012

Hi,

Maths: mæθs = http://www.howjsay.com/index.php?word=maths&submit=Submit
Months: mʌntθs →mʌnts = http://www.howjsay.com/index.php?word=months&submit=Submit

If you click on the links you will also hear the pronunciations. (Try the links with Internet explorer not Mozilla because Mozilla doesn't play the sound or pronunciation but Internet explorer does)


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## entangledbank

If you look up "months" in the search box, you'll find quite a few threads about this word - often started by Chinese speakers. Unfortunately, Chinese languages have much, much simpler consonant systems than English, so you naturally want to use simpler pronunciations. But we really do pronounce all these sounds in English - at least in more careful speech.

Two of the longest threads about it are here pronunciation: months; strengths | WordReference Forums and here. (You will have the same sort of problem saying what I just wrote: _longest threads_. You need to keep practising our difficult consonant clusters.)


<Edited to repair second link, which was no longer working. Cagey, moderator. >


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## hugh6

Thank you very much, and I need to practice more!!


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## seekenglish

<< Moderator's note: This has been added to a previous thread. >>

Hi! Need the sound of 'th' be pronounced in the following words? How to pronounce?
clothes months maths Smith's


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## Andygc

Hi seekenglish. Four questions, but one answer. Yes. The pronunciation is in the dictionary. Just add an 's' at the end where needed. 

If you don't already know how if works: International Phonetic Alphabet links


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## seekenglish

Thanks. Can we hear clearly of the th sound in oral English?


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## Andygc

It depends on the speaker's accent, but normally, yes. It's not the same sound as 'th' at the beginning of a word. Try listening to the pronunciation in Oxford Dictionaries online -  http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/smith?q=smith


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## seekenglish

Thanks very much!


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## mplsray

The _th_ in clothes is pronounced like the _th_ in _then_ while the other pronunciations use the _th_ in _both_. _Clothes_ is more commonly pronounced with a /z/ at the end and no representation of any _th_ sound (see the Merriam-Webster online entry here which indicates the less common pronunciation by preceding it with the word _also_).


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## Andygc

mplsray said:


> The _th_ in clothes is pronounced like the _th_ in _then_ while the other pronunciations use the _th_ in _both_. _Clothes_ is more commonly pronounced with a /z/ at the end and no representation of any _th_ sound (see the Merriam-Webster online entry here which indicates the less common pronunciation by preceding it with the word _also_).


I think we will have to disagree, but that probably reflects a difference in accent. The tongue and mouth positions for me in _then _and _clothes _are very different, and my pronunciation of _clothes _definitely includes a _th _sound. You seem to be suggesting that _clothes _is pronounced the same as _close _(ie /kləʊz/).


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## mplsray

Andygc said:


> I think we will have to disagree, but that probably reflects a difference in accent. The tongue and mouth positions for me in _then _and _clothes _are very different, and my pronunciation of _clothes _definitely includes a _th _sound. You seem to be suggesting that _clothes _is pronounced the same as _close _(ie /kləʊz/).



Yes, exactly. Merriam-Webster, an American dictionary, is saying that the pronunciation without the_ th_ sound as in _then, _/kloʊz/, is more common than the pronunciation with it, /kloʊðz/, and that both are correct. Other online dictionaries of American English show both pronunciations as standard, but do not point to one as being more common than the other.


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## natkretep

I don't think it's only AmE. Oxford Dictionaries, representing BrE, also gives both pronunciations: /kləʊ(ð)z/ - with or without the /ð/. Admittedly our dictionary (Collins) only gives the version with ​/ð/.
_
Clothes _is the odd-one-out in the list; it's /ð/ rather than /θ/ for the others.


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## Keith Bradford

Wordsorth certainly didn't pronounce the /ð/, if we are to judge by his (awful) couplet from _Childhood_:

A household tub, like one of those
Which women use to wash their clothes.


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## fivejedjon

The Longman English Pronunciation Dictionary gives both forms, but the Cambridhe English Pnouncing Dictionary fives only the form with  /ð/.


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## seekenglish

Thanks! I have got it!


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## AlbertoForin

<< Moderator's note: This thread has been merged with a previous thread.  Please read from the top. >>

How do you do pronounce <th> Before <s> In plural?

I looked to Wikipedia but the explanation isn't clear enough for me.

Can anyone kindly explain ?


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## anthox

Same as the 'th' in 'thin' or 'thick.'

It is a bit of an awkward combination, though, so in informal, everyday speech you may find people pronouncing it something closer to a 't,' as in "months" pronounced as "munts."


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## panjandrum

In my version of English the /th/ is always pronounced.


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## boozer

Pronouncing 'clothes' as 'close' just does not seem right. I agree that the tongue almost gets tied into a knot while producing the  /ðz/ sequence, but, hey, who says it's got to be easy?


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## Cagey

Moderator's note:  

I have merged several threads on this topic. 

This results in a certain amount of repetition, and so on, which is not fault of the posters above; they posted before the threads were merged. 

On the other hand, interesting points were made in the earlier threads.  It is worthwhile to scroll to scroll up and read from the top.    

Cagey, moderator.


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## Keith Bradford

boozer said:


> ... hey, who says it's got to be easy?



The human mouth, actually.  It's a common phenomenon over the centuries that complicated words, the ones that are hardest to pronounce, get eroded by the natural movements of the tongue and lips.  Otherwise we'd still be pronouncing cupboard as /kʊp boærd/ and Wednesday as /wed nez dæj/.


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## Pedro y La Torre

panjandrum said:


> In my version of English the /th/ is always pronounced.



I was about to write that almost no Irish English speakers voice the _th _sound in words like ''months'' or ''maths''.  

Even educated speakers from (southern) Ireland would be unable to say ''months'' while voicing a th sound without stumbling.
Clothes, in my accent, would carry a very slight _th _sound, but really ever so slight.

Though for ''Smith's'', I'd have no problem voicing the ''th''. Hmm....


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## Sylvia_scj

I have added this question to an earlier thread.  
Cagey,  moderator 

Topic question: How do you pronounce "ths" in words like "months", "maths", “paths” etc.

For many years, I thought "th" could be silent when "s" is added at the end of the words. But I realised recently that this might not be the case after I watched several TED talks. It bothers me a lot.

Answers both from American English speakers and British English speakers would be appreciated.


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## PaulQ

*-ths* is pronounced /-θs/ 
*months *-> /mʌnθs/ 


Sylvia_scj said:


> I thought "th" could be silent when "s" is added at the end of the words


No - /-θ/ is always pronounced with or without an 's'.


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## dojibear

It uses the voiceless "th" sound in "thin, thick", not the voiced "th" sound in "these, those".


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## Sylvia_scj

Thank you for your help, Cagey, PaulQ and dojibear.


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## natkretep

dojibear said:


> It uses the voiceless "th" sound in "thin, thick", not the voiced "th" sound in "these, those".


Well, I use the voiced consonants for _paths_ /pɑːðz/. See the discussion here:
Pronunciation: plural of baths and paths

Sylvia, you should pronounce both consonants. If you are saying _maths_, you should say /θ/ with the tongue between your teeth or slightly behind your upper teeth, and then move it further back for /s/.

Some English speakers might use other consonants: some Irish speakers might say /mats/, and some Cockney speakers might say /mafs/, and unless you live among them you should not imitate these pronunciations.


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## Sylvia_scj

natkretep said:


> Well, I use the voiced consonants for _paths_ /pɑːðz/. See the discussion here:
> Pronunciation: plural of baths and paths
> 
> Sylvia, you should pronounce both consonants. If you are saying _maths_, you should say /θ/ with the tongue between your teeth or slightly behind your upper teeth, and then move it further back for /s/.
> 
> Some English speakers might use other consonants: some Irish speakers might say /mats/, and some Cockney speakers might say /mafs/, and unless you live among them you should not imitate these pronunciations.



Thank you, natkretep.


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## Robby Zhu

[This post and the following ones have been added to an existing thread in which the same question was asked.  Please read down from the top.  DonnyB - moderator.]
Hello ,everyone.
1,earth's months
2,clothes
It is really difficult to pronounce when "θ，s" meet .And according to what I heard ,people just leave out the "θ"sound. "Months" sounds like "mons" I want to know if that is a formal pronunciation.
And thanks in advance.


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## Loob

Here are some previous threads, Robby Zhu
Pronunciation: th-, -th, -thes
Pronunciation ; when you say like "with someone" "south side


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## Franco-filly

Robby Zhu said:


> "Months" sounds like "mons"


Really?? I've heard it pronounced "munffs" enough times    but never "mons."
Perhaps it just needs practice.


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## Uncle Jack

There are a few native speakers who struggle with the pronunciation, especially /ðz/ (clothes), where the /ð/ sound may disappear or /ðz/ transform into something closer to /θs/ in ordinary speech.

Most native speakers manage /θs/ well enough


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## Robby Zhu

Thank you, Loob  ,Francko,and Jack.
Problem solved.!


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## dojibear

If I have trouble pronouncing /θs/, I probably pronounce it /ts/, not /s/.

In other words I might make the /θs/ (or /ðz/) sound easier to pronounce, rather than omitting sounds.

So months might change from /mʌnθs/ to /mʌnts/, if I am speaking rapidly.


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## kentix

dojibear said:


> So months might change from /mʌnθs/ to /mʌnts/, if I am speaking rapidly.


I think this is much more likely than the th sound disappearing. It morphs into a t sound. And the t is a stop sound so it still affects the rhythm of the word. I think it's a very common pronunciation adjustment in AE and is used in many contexts, not just fast casual speech.


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## zdcm519

I also want to ask you all, if we do blend the th+s  as in

 truths/months/lengths/moths/paths/with so/ maths/breaths/bathes/tenths/oaths/cloths/month + session/mouth + speaks 
(those could be either voiced th+/z/, or unvoiced th +/s/), 


for all these th+s or nth+s do you really blend the th and s, like you do /ts/or /ns/ or /nz/,

or just glide from position of /th/ to /s/ without blending ths, nths, 

or both?


this is my observation, thank you very much!







.


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## Keith Bradford

Glide from position of /th/ to /s/ without blending.


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## PaulQ

zdcm519 said:


> month + session/mouth + speaks


*Th* and *s* are separate. "A three mon{th's} {session}"/mʌnθs ˈsɛʃən/
and 
"The mou{ths} {speak}" /ðə maʊðz spiːk/


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## zdcm519

Keith Bradford said:


> Glide from position of /th/ to /s/ without blending.


Thank you very much, for the confirmation, which must be the right answer technically.

but sometimes I hear people say strengths and months really like /mʌnts/ and /lenkts/, mostly austrailians and AE speakers,  is it because they replace the /th/ with a /t/?


Thank you!


>


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## zdcm519

PaulQ said:


> *Th* and *s* are separate. "A three mon{th's} {session}"/mʌnθs ˈsɛʃən/
> and
> "The mou{ths} {speak}" /ðə maʊðz spiːk/


Thank you very much, got it!  

And most of the time, we should never blend the th with /s/ or /z/, this is my take! thank you!


Thank you!


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## zdcm519

The THS Sound - Rachel's English 
I found this link talking about this topic, also share with you guys.


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