# lieux charmants (in a tourist guide)



## guime

*FR>*

 Bonjour,

Suite à la discussion intitulée "charming spot's meaning for US and UK citizens", je cherche une expression qui pourrait décrire un ensemble de lieux charmants comprenant par exemple :

- des parcs et jardins charmants et particulièrement magnifiques,
- des lieux charmants et authentiques où résider (belles demeures, gites de charme, chambres d'hôte ravissantes et authentiques, hôtels mignons et insolites, etc.),
- de très beaux paysages et belles promenades à faire, des salles de réception de prestige dans des environnements splendides et historiques (lieux classés monument historique dans des 
paysage magnifique par exemple)
- ou encore des lieux très jolis et historiques à louer pour des tournages de film ou de prises de vues, etc.

J'ai pensé à "charming spots" mais cela ne me convainc pas.
Evidemment l'expression "charming places" me parait un peu trop bas de gamme...

Auriez-vous la gentillesse de me dire comment traduire l'expression "lieux charmants" autrement qu'avec "charming spots" d'après les lieux que je souhaite décrire?
Quelqu'un aurait-il d'autres idées d'expressions pour "lieux charmants" ?

Merci beaucoup à tous ,

Guime


*EN>*

 Hi,

Further to the thread titled "charming spot's meaning for US and UK citizens", I'm looking for an expression which could describe a set of charming places including for example:

- charming and particularly magnificent Parks and gardens (to visit),
- charming and authentic places where to stay during holidays (beautiful houses to be rented for the holidays, charming "gites", charming and authentic guest houses, good-looking and unusual 
hotels)
- very beautiful landscapes to see and beautiful walks to take.
- prestigious reception halls in magnificent and historic environments (classified places, ancient memorial in magnificent landscape for example).
- very attractive and historic places to be rented for shootings of film or shots _(rectification : backdrops for photo/film shoots)_

I thought in "charming spots" but it doesn't convince me.
Obviously the expression "charming places" seems too downmarket...

Would you have the kindness to tell me the best translation for "lieux charmants" if it is not "charming spots" ?
Would anybody have other ideas of expression instead of this one ?

Thank you very much to all ,

Guime


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## wildan1

Well, Guime, if you are writing up a brochure or advertisement, you are probably going to have something more hyped in English than "charming," e.g.:

_--must-see places_
_--top-notch/upmarket/top of the line vacation homes_
_--breathtaking views/landscapes_
_--exclusive/unique/one-of-a-kind, etc._
_--dramatic settings/backdrops for photo/film shoots (_not _shootings)_


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## guime

Thank you Wildan1,

The main difficulty is that I have to find a single generic expression to describe all these types of places (the tourist guide's title)...

That's why I had found "charming spots".

Do you think "charming spots" would be pretty good or a too downmarket expression?


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## wildan1

_charming _is likely to attract people looking for something quaint and possibly romantic. But the market you described in your attempts seemed more for commercial uses than for romantic getaways. That market might be underwhelmed by that one little adjective (not downmarket, maybe just not fabulous-sounding enough).

PS  Bingo! -- could that be your word? -- _*fabulous *spots_


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## Cath.S.

Wildan, _charmant _a les mêmes connotations que _charming_, - de jolis endroits calmes, convenant à une vie tranquille ou à de gentilles promenades romantiques - ; pour moi employer _fabulous_ ou ce type de mot, c'est exagéré. Que penserais-tu de
_enchanting_ ?


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## guime

*FR>*
Merci egueule ,

Est-ce que l'expression "charming spot" vous choque vraiment pour décrire de tels lieux ? ("charming" et/ou "spot") ?
Si c'est le cas il faut que je recherche une autre expression anglaise, mais si vous trouvez que cela peut éventuellement être utilisé pour décrire de tels lieux, alors pourquoi pas la garder...?

En français cette expression signifie "un lieu très joli", "un endroit à la fois authentique, intime et beau" mais il ne s'agit pas toujours de lieux à connotation "romantique" 'même si c'est parfois le cas.
L'idéal serait une expression anglaise qui décrirait à la fois un lieu accueillant, authentique, très joli, et intime. C'est pourquoi j'avais pensé à "charmant".

C'est vrai que "enchanting" serait peut-être pas mal. 

et que pensez-vous de "spot"?

Merci



*EN>*
Thank you egueule ,

Does the expression "charming spot" really shock you to describe such places? ("charming" and\or "spot")?
If it was the case I would look for another English expression, but if you found it pretty good for describing such places, then why not use it ?

In french, this expression means "a very pretty place", "an authentic, intimate and beautiful place" but not always a romantic one.
The ideal would be an english expression meaning "a very cosy, authentic and pretty place to stay or to live".

"enchanting" seems to be a good idea. 

And what about "spot"? 

Thank you


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## wildan1

egueule said:


> Wildan, _charmant _a les mêmes connotations que _charming_, - de jolis endroits calmes, convenant à une vie tranquille ou à de gentilles promenades romantiques - ; pour moi employer _fabulous_ ou ce type de mot, c'est exagéré. Que penserais-tu de
> _enchanting_ ?


 
point en désaccord avec les connotations dans les deux langues, egueule

Ce qui ne correspond pas pour moi c'est le but ciblé : des locations de locaux à des fins plutôt commerciales que personnelles: 



> - prestigious reception halls in magnificent and historic environments (classified places, ancient memorial in magnificent landscape for example).
> - very attractive and historic places to be rented for shootings of film or shots


 
Là il me semble qu'il faudrait remonter le ton d'un cran pour attirer ce genre de clientèle. Celle-ci est plus orientée au tape-à-l'oeil, que ce soit pour le cadre photographié ou l'impression qu'elle cherche à laisser à ses invités de gala.


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## pyan

"Fabulous" is strong but I think it is hackneyed.   "Charming" to me seems clichéd, with a note of sugar that puts me off.  "Enhanting" sounds, to me, attractive.  

All three of these words have their roots in the other-worldly, in magic and spells.  Perhaps there is more to come from the same mine?

"Spot" or "spots" does sound too informal for this.


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## Cath.S.

Le but, c'est la rédaction d'un guide touristique, on ne sait pas exactement quelle est la clientèle ciblée. Il me semble que le texte cherche à ratisser large, de manière à séduire plusieurs types de touristes.

Par exemple


> chambres d'hôte ravissantes et authentiques, hôtels mignons et insolites, etc.),


ne cherche pas à attirer des clients fortunés, et l'idée générale me semble bien être "nous en avons pour tous les goûts et toutes les bourses".


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## wildan1

egueule said:


> Le but, c'est la rédaction d'un guide touristique, on ne sait pas exactement quelle est la clientèle ciblée. Il me semble que le texte cherche à ratisser large, de manière à séduire plusieurs types de touristes.
> 
> Par exemple
> 
> ne cherche pas à attirer des clients fortunés, et l'idée générale me semble bien être "nous en avons pour tous les goûts et toutes les bourses".


 
Bon, j'ai été peut-être un peu trop influencé par la mention de photo shoots and réceptions de prestige...

So _enchanting _is a good, overall word, I agree


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## guime

FR>
Merci Pyan!
En effet les clients à qui je souhaite plaire sont des clients plus attirés par la simplicité de l'accueil et la beauté des vieilles pierres que par le prestige et le luxe d'un palace. J'aimerais faire passer une image plutôt "terroir chic et simple". Pour des francophones ce serait plutôt l'image de "gentleman farmer"...

EN>
Thank you Pyan!
Indeed the customers whom I wish to please are customers more attracted by the simplicity of the reception and the beauty of ancient places than by the prestige and the luxury of a Palace. I would like to spend an image of "smart and simple soil". For French speakers it would be rather the image of a "gentleman farmer"...


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## lapsangsouchong

"Charming spots" est déconseillé pour une autre raison, du moins dans ma tête d'anglais: l'autre sens de "spot" (petite pustule, bouton), qui est particulièrement présent dans le pluriel ("His eyes are a lovely shade of blue, but he's got spots" -> acné).

Bon courage!


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## wildan1

lapsangsouchong said:


> l'autre sens de "spot" (petite pustule, bouton), qui est particulièrement présent dans le pluriel ("His eyes are a lovely shade of blue, but he's got spots" -> acné).


 
This is strictly BE and wouldn't come to mind for an AE speaker. _boutons/acné_ = _pimples, "zits"_ in AE


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## lapsangsouchong

Sorry--separated by a common language etc.  Thanks


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## watergirl

Interesting challenge....how about something with "lovely"?  Lovely locales, for instance.


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## guime

lapsangsouchong said:


> "Charming spots" est déconseillé pour une autre raison, du moins dans ma tête d'anglais: l'autre sens de "spot" (petite pustule, bouton), qui est particulièrement présent dans le pluriel ("His eyes are a lovely shade of blue, but he's got spots" -> acné).



Ne traduisons-nous pourtant pas "idyllic spot" comme "un petit coin de paradis"?

Nous savons qu'un terme anglais a souvent plusieurs sens très différents voire contraires selon le contexte ou le(s) mots qui le précèdent ou succèdent?! 

Vous pensez vraiment que "charming spot" pourrait avoir un sens aussi péjoratif (même inconsciemment) pour des britanniques? 

Si c'est le cas c'est effectivement très embêtant.


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## guime

lapsangsouchong said:


> "Charming spots" est déconseillé pour une autre raison, du moins dans ma tête d'anglais: l'autre sens de "spot" (petite pustule, bouton), qui est particulièrement présent dans le pluriel ("His eyes are a lovely shade of blue, but he's got spots" -> acné)



Do you really think that "charming spot" (or "spots") could have a so pejorative sense (even unconsciously) for the British?


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## watergirl

I'm not British but I don't think "spot" is particularly pejorative.  It's a fine word in many circumstances.  Here, though, it probably has too narrow a field of reference for your purposes.   

Some of the places you refer to sound larger than what we would normally call a "spot"  (i.e., parks, gardens, scenic areas, etc.)   
 You would surely be able to find a charming spot IN  these places, but they themselves probably wouldn't be called "spots."   

 The "locale" I suggested earlier seems broader in scope, at least to me!


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## guime

watergirl said:


> Interesting challenge....how about something with "lovely"?  Lovely locales, for instance.



Thank you watergirl for your support,

effectively it's an interesting challenge 

"Lovely" seems pretty well too, but I had difficulties to understand the difference and the cultural nuance with "charming" (I am native in french...). For french people "charming" sound better than "lovely", that's why I chose the first one.


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## lapsangsouchong

Yes, I'm being a bit excessive here: the word spot doesn't immediately or necessarily bring a pustule to mind every time I hear it   It certainly isn't pejorative--it's more the possible association I was worrying about.  However, a bit more seriously, I think it would be more normal to refer to one particular place as a charming / lovely spot than to use the term in the plural to describe several places.

Likely :

"I like to spend Sunday mornings by the lake in the jardin des Buttes-Chaumont.  It's a lovely spot."

Less likely :

"There are many charming spots in the jardin des Buttes-Chaumont."

Less likely still :

"The jardin des Buttes-Chaumont has many lovely spots."

--I'm not sure how much of this reflects British or simply personal usage, however.

To put the boot on the other foot for a minute, while _locale_ is very common in American English, it is used more rarely in British English.  When I first read the International Herald Tribune, for example, the frequent use of the word was one of the differences I most noticed about American newspaper English.

Cheers !


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## wildan1

so how about _enchanting location_? 

(PS to French-speakers: this has nothing to do with _louer/location_)


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## ChiMike

The French term seems to cover a wide variety of places, perhaps a double title in English:
Delightful Spots and Captivating Places

And always remember that New Mexico is the Land of Enchantment...it's on the license plates!


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## mally pense

Apologies that I don't have time to check through all the preceding posts, but a quick glance seems to suggest that two of the most commonly used stock phrases in the UK do not appear to have been suggested or discussed. These are:

Beauty spots
Places of interest

Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but these are two widely used and commonly understood expressions in this context in the UK.


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## guime

*FR>*
 Merci beaucoup à tous pour votre aide,

Je comprends que la difficulté réside dans le fait que le terme français "lieu" convient pour décrire une multitude d'endroits très différents, sans avoir pour autant un sens péjoratif, tandis qu'il conviendrait de trouver, en anglais, des termes précis et différents pour chaque type de lieu... Est-ce bien cela ?

Personne n'a encore évoqué le mot "site" : "_charming sites_ "

J'ai cru comprendre que le mot "site" décrit plutôt un emplacement géographique. Si c'est cela peut-être qu'il conviendrait? A moins qu'il donne une mauvaise image à l'expression elle-même?

Ou alors que pensez-vous d'utiliser une expression comme "_charming side_"  : évidemment cela n'est pas une description précise des lieux mais cela pourrait évoquer l'ambiance qui les caractérise tous?

*
EN>*
 Thank you very much for your help,

I understand that the difficulty lives in the fact that the french term "lieu" agrees to describe a multitude of very different places, without having for all a pejorative sense, whereas it would be advisable to find, in English, precise and different terms for every type of places... isn't-it?

Nobody has still evoked the word "site" like "_charming sites_" .

I understood that the word "site" usually describe rather a geographical place. If it is, perhaps would it be advisable to use this expression? Unless it would give a bad image to the expression itself?

And what about another expression like "_charming side_" : it doesn't describe exactly charming places but it could evoke the common atmosphere which is present there?


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## catay

another suggestion: "beautiful sites", which could encompass a variety of places to visit, scenic landscapes, charming villages, museums, etc.


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## wildan1

guime said:


> Personne n'a encore évoqué le mot "site" : "_charming sites_ "
> 
> J'ai cru comprendre que le mot "site" décrit plutôt un emplacement géographique. Si c'est cela peut-être qu'il conviendrait? A moins qu'il donne une mauvaise image à l'expression elle-même?
> 
> Ou alors que pensez-vous d'utiliser une expression comme "_charming side_" : évidemment cela n'est pas une description précise des lieux mais cela pourrait évoquer l'ambiance qui les caractérise tous?


 
the problem with the word _site _in English is that it is a homonym of _sight_, and in a travel context, confusing with _sightseeing_. _Charming sites/sights_ could be a destination (monument, castle, statue, etc.) as much as a place/location.


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## ChiMike

wildan1 said:


> the problem with the word _site _in English is that it is a homonym of _sight_, and in a travel context, confusing with _sightseeing_. _Charming sites/sights_ could be a destination (monument, castle, statue, etc.) as much as a place/location.


 
Very true, certainly in the US, where "site" is used most frequently in the phrase: "historic sites" ("monuments" en français) or "tourist sites" which I personally avoid when they are so described, because they are usually overrun by crowds. 

I don't know how it would go over in BE, but, in thinking about this, maybe "Cool places to visit and to stay" would be a quasi-updated version in U.S. English. It depends on whether one considers the word "cool" outdated or over-used, or both.


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## mally pense

> I don't know how it would go over in BE, but, in thinking about this, maybe "Cool places to visit and to stay" would be a quasi-updated version in U.S. English. It depends on whether one considers the word "cool" outdated or over-used, or both.


 
OK, "Cool places to visit and to stay" will do me. End of discussion? _(Probably not!)_


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## Cath.S.

Mally Pense said:
			
		

> OK, "Cool places to visit and to stay" will do me. End of discussion? _(Probably not!)_


Et en effet... 
...I for one don't really like _cool _as a translation of _charmant_, the register is too different - imo.

I also have a grammar question about the structure of that sentence.
When you write _cool places to visit_, _to_ _visit_ is transitive and its object is _places_.
But how can _stay_ share the same construction _in the same sentence?_ Can you really "stay a place"?
Thanks for answering me, I'm quite puzzled as in French those types of sentences are considered wrong.


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## mally pense

You can't "stay a place", but "a place to stay" is a recognised noun phrase, as in "It's getting late, let's see if we can find a nice place to stay for the night". If you replace the "to" with "where we can" you'll get the structure.


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## quietman18

How about 'beauty spots' for lieux charmants ?

It's a very common phrase in the UK.

Last time I studied French properly was 20 years ago, still love the language.


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## ChiMike

egueule said:


> Et en effet...
> ...I for one don't really like _cool _as a translation of _charmant_, the register is too different - imo.
> 
> I also have a grammar question about the structure of that sentence.
> When you write _cool places to visit_, _to_ _visit_ is transitive and its object is _places_.
> But how can _stay_ share the same construction _in the same sentence?_ Can you really "stay a place"?
> Thanks for answering me, I'm quite puzzled as in French those types of sentences are considered wrong.


 
The problem with "lieux charmants" is that the word "charming" in English (at least U.S.) when applied to places seems a bit precious. "Enchanting" for many people has the same problem and, as I pointed out, has become an advertizing term which suggests exaggeration - "gushing" as we say. In U.S. English "beauty spot," in addition to being confused by some with "beauty mark" (grain de beauté), is considered trite or old-fashioned--- and we usually say "garden spot" but apply it more to entire towns or villages. It is, in fact, a bit difficult to find an adjective that has not become hackneyed through overuse--a problem with "fabulous" and "delightful" as well. Perhaps "lovely" would do. 

It is a question of finding a word which still has some credibility left, and, in our ad-saturated age, that is a rather tall order.

As for the grammar, mally has explained it. It is a determinator of purpose: for visiting or for staying: pour une visite ou pour un séjour. It can be used adjectively or adverbially (modifying an adjective). In French, as commonly happens, one must shift to nouns to avoid the problem of reference which you mention.


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## catay

Yes, I agree ChiMike.  "Lovely" is nice without being over the top.  It is very difficult to find a word that hasn't been overused, especially with regard to travel brochures.  Another adjective that came to mind was "captivating", but this is on the "gushy" side.


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## Cath.S.

Mally Pense and Chimike, I was merely trying to point out that since both structures are in fact grammatically different (in one case places is a direct object, in the other it's not), the sentence _places to visit and to stay_ would constitute a syllepsis (type of zeugma).


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## Nicomon

Interseting challenge indeed !

The word "spots" really rubs me the wrong way. May be because I think "greasy spots". I associate "charming" with persons, more than places. And I agree that "cool" doesn't work either. I have a hard time choosing a favorite between _beautiful, lovely _and _enchanting. _

I noticed guime mentioned "gentleman farmer" in one post, but I assume something like _country charm_ / _charme champêtre_ would sound very cliché.

My try:
_Irresistible sites and places_ (but that's a bit long)


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## mally pense

egueule said:


> Mally Pense and Chimike, I was merely trying to point out that since both structures are in fact grammatically different (in one case places is a direct object, in the other it's not), the sentence _places to visit and to stay_ would constitute a syllepsis (type of zeugma).


 
Being ignorant of such things, I've just had to look up syllepsis and zeugma, but having done so, I think I disagree. As ChiMike says (if I understand correctly), "to visit" and "to stay" are _both_ "determinators of purpose", hence there is no grammatical disagreement within the sentence. "A place to visit" and "A place to stay" are both valid noun phrases on their own, so can be combined without any problem of the sort you describe. The fact that you can "visit a place" but you can't "stay a place" is largely incidental and probably irrelevant I suspect.


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## ChiMike

mally pense said:


> Being ignorant of such things, I've just had to look up syllepsis and zeugma, but having done so, I think I disagree. As ChiMike says (if I understand correctly), "to visit" and "to stay" are _both_ "determinators of purpose", hence there is no grammatical disagreement within the sentence. "A place to visit" and "A place to stay" are both valid noun phrases on their own, so can be combined without any problem of the sort you describe. The fact that you can "visit a place" but you can't "stay a place" is largely incidental and probably irrelevant I suspect.


 
Indeed. It is:
A good place to stay for a couple of days.
A good place to spend the night. You can't spend a place either.
A good place to kennel your dog. 
A good place to go for a cold beer.
A good place to reside.
A nice place to live.
A quiet place to think.

In all of these, the "to-infinitve" determinator can be replaced with "for the purpose of + the gerund" (present participle used as a noun). In fact, it can be replaced by "for + gerund". Those constructions are also impossible in French.

I have been thinking about this overnight. There are actually two problematic areas here, one grammatical and one lexical. The reason I have been thinking about this is that, if one substitutes most non-figurative place locators for "a place" or "some place" (without an adjective), one must, in fact, add a locative particle from a phrasal verb: "A good town to live IN" "A good hotel to stay at" (the purists would, of course, tell us that it should be "in which" or "at which" but that is a misinterpretation of the adverbial particles through a failure to understand their Germanic origin). One of the lexical problems thus involves the word "place" - here, un endroit. It is clearly understood to be very broad and in the phrases "a place to..." "some place to..." could easily be understood as "somewhere", which, of course, answers the question of what happened to the "where". The problem is that we can also say: "The Palmer House is *the* best place downtown to stay." Thus, there is also something to be said about "stay".  It comes, through Old French (ester) from "stare" (to stand, to be). It thus lends itself, when used with the very general term "place" to the idea of just being at rest or for making a stop. In that sense, it is much closer to "faire un séjour" than to "séjourner" all by itself. 

On the grammatical level, English is much freer with determinators of purpose in the infinitive than is French. They can almost always be followed by a direct or indirect object which does not refer to the subject - when the purpose, rather than the circumstance (to stay (purpose); to stay in (circumstance)) predominates or when, in fact, the preceding noun is used generally or figuratively: "I am looking for a corner to hide" ("hide in" is also possible, but it makes the noun phrase circumstancial --- you are looking for a real corner -- not just any place which is secret enough to be a place of hiding). In older (and still in some dialectical) forms of English, the purposive nature of the statement could be emphasized by "for to" -- "a good town for to stay." This heavy construction still exists in German (um zu), but the "for" is now considered unnecessary (and even extremely quaint - and, by some, substandard) in English. 

In French, I am always a bit perplexed when it comes to certain constructions. The "où" is clear to me in: Je cherche un hôtel où passer la nuit." (although I would say: un hôtel "pour la nuit" to avoid the verbal construction entirely).  But can I say: "un hôtel pour y passer la nuit" and do I absolutely have to insert "y". Even more perplexing is: "Je cherche un lieu agréable pour y faire un long séjour." I would probably insert the "y", but in this construction, the purposive nature of the determinator always tempts me to leave out the circumstantial "y". What I usually do is omit the verb entirely: "pour un long séjour". 

There is still, however, no question in my mind that "Good places to stay" is understood as a determinator of purpose (afin de) and, although "in" could be added, it makes the determinator circumstantial.


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