# sour grapes



## busylittlejenny

Hello!!

Is "sour grapes" an idiom? If yes, how would you translate it?  

Thanks!!


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## wildan1

yes, _sour grapes_ is an idiom used as a noun or adjective to describe someone who is unhappy due to jealousy

_A: Sarah said she didn't think Jenny deserved first prize._
_B: Sarah may have said that, but I think it's just *sour grapes* because she didn't win herself._


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## viera

I like this colourful expression.  I seem to recall that it's from a story about a fox that was trying to get some grapes, but they were too high to reach.  So he said "Oh well, they are probably sour anyway."


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## carolineR

wildan1 said:


> _A: Sarah said she didn't think Jenny deserved first prize.
> B: Sarah may have said that, but I think it's just *sour grapes* because she didn't win herself._


it's not the same register at all, but in this case you could say "Sarah dit ça parce qu'elle est vexée comme un pou de ne pas avoir gagné."


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## carolineR

sour grapes = dépit
so you could say "Sarah dit ça parce qu'elle est est très dépitée de ne pas avoir gagné."


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## Embonpoint

"sour grapes" en anglais va un peu plus loin. C'est surtout le fait de faire semblant de ne pas avoir jamais voulu ce que vous n'avez pas pu obtenir. Par example, vous déposer une candidature à une entreprise où vous avez vraiment envie de travailler. 

Vous êtes refusé, et vous dites, "Ça fait rien. La poste était nul et ne payait pas assez." On dirait en anglais que c'est "sour grapes."

Quelqu'un connait une expression française pour ça?


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## archijacq

éventuellement:
elle dit ça *par aigreur*


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## Agnès. H

Hello forum,

I am coming a little late but I am stuck with the same expression...

In my case, Sour Grapes is a nickname given to a woman who is ... sour grapes.

It's even more difficlut to find a French expression that could express the same meaning as well as be a good nickname.

Any ideas?

Thanks in advance


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## carolineR

Agnès. H said:


> In my case, Sour Grapes is a nickname given to a woman who is ... sour grapes.


 "Maigre Consolation" ?


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## Agnès. H

Nous l'appelons "Maigre Consolation". Je ne sais pas.
Cela ne me parait pas aussi amusant...
Est-ce que je suis un peu trop difficile?


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## carolineR

Miss Dépit ?


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## Agnès. H

Oui, beaucoup mieux, avec Madame, cela marche aussi. Merci


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## murf123

I've always heard the expression as Wildan1: "..I think it's just (_*a case of*_) sour grapes..." More like CarolineR's "depitee" or Edwingill's "depit." The connotation "resentment" or with a tinge 'bitterness' comes to mind. The reference to LaFontaine is interesting as I always thought the image of a face contracted or puckered (as if tasting sour grapes) was the origin. Then there is the Hollywood metaphor of "toiling in the vineyard of sour grapes..." might recall someone who's still waiting bitterly for his/her big chance.


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## Doc J

One last point about sour grapes. It is  considered a rhetorical device of defense: it is often used after someone shows interest in something but gets rejected and then pretends that he or she was not interested in the something in the first place. It is the decietful practice of denying previous realities.


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## mgarizona

I suppose _Madame Raisins-trop-verts_ would be too much???

The OED glosses the usage nicely: "when a person is heard to disparage something which it is suspected he would be glad to possess if he could."

When a second-rate actor rails against the meaninglessness of receiving an Oscar, one may suspect him of "sour grapes." 

_Dépit, déceptio_n, etc. are pale approximations.


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## LILOIA

(par) dépit is great :    It's the word I was looking for.


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## djamal 2008

LILOIA said:


> (par) dépit is great :    It's the word I was looking for.


C'est vrai que la sensation au moment est une sorte de dépit et de déception, mais lorsqu'on veut cacher ce sentiment et faire montre comme si de rien n'était, ça devient _sour grapes_ pour une autre personne. Ils seraient trop verts pour celui qui a échoué à quelque chose.


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## carolineR

Je ne pense pas que dans ce genre de situation existe en français une expression équivalant à _sour grapes_ ; on aurait recours à des périphrases :
_il est écoeuré mais il cache bien son jeu_/ _il est en a pris plein la gueule, mais il joue les fanfarons_ / _il l'a en travers mais fait comme si de rien n'était_/ _ça lui reste en travers de la gorge, même s'il le cache bien_ etc...


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## Miss003

Maybe could we say "parce qu'elle l'avait mauvaise"?


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## mgarizona

There are of course real distinctions to be made between being a sore loser and showing "sour grapes." ... A sore loser shows a lack of class or gamesmanship, "sour grapes" is a sign of a lack of honesty, either with others or with oneself.

In a French translation of Aesop/Esope I have, the "moral" of the fable is given thus:

_De même certains hommes, quand leur propre faiblesse les empêche d'arriver à leurs fins, s'en prennent aux circonstances._


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## mgarizona

Found this direct usage, which seems plain enough:

The essayist quotes Bismark's statement "_les Allemands n'ont pas besoin d'une union étroite entre eux_" then comments "_C'est possible, mais cela ressemble singulièrement aux raisins trop verts de la fable._"


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## Bobbum

In a movie just the other night sour grapes came up, and the French subtitles said _Mauvais perdant._


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## piloulac

Faire contre mauvaise fortune, bon coeur.
Avoir le sourire amer.


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## Budd

Embonpoint's post #11 is so far the best and clearest.  The story, originally Aesop and "borrowed" by LaFontaine, can clarify the meaning.  A fox sees some grapes and wants them badly, but isn't able to get to them.  He walks off saying, "They probably were sour anyway." _Dépit _gives some of the idea, but when you say in English someone is suffering from sour grapes, the meaning refers to a kind of revisionism--Aha, what I wanted was never worth having anyway. Perhaps there is a translation of Aesop into French that would give a clue.  Anyway, here is LaFontaine's version complete (his shortest fable).

Certain Renard Gascon, d'autres disent Normand,
Mourant presque de faim, vit au haut d'une treille
Des Raisins mûrs apparemment,
Et couverts d'une peau vermeille.
Le galand en eût fait volontiers un repas ;
Mais comme il n'y pouvait atteindre :
"Ils sont trop verts, dit-il, et bons pour des goujats. "
Fit-il pas mieux que de se plaindre ?

I don't know if "Ils sont trop verts" or "bons pour les goujats" would make any sense in a francophone conversation, but that's what there is from LaFontaine.


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## LILOIA

Budd said:


> […]I don't know if "Ils sont trop verts" or "bons pour les goujats" would make any sense in a francophone conversation, but that's what there is from LaFontaine.



Yes it would, at least to literate people.


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## Gulby

Amre, froissé ?... Peut-être un rapport aussi avec le livre "Les raisins de la colère" ?...


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## Budd

I doubt it, Gulby. "The Grapes of Wrath" is part of American culture, a line from "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" 
(1861, published a year later). Steinbeck borrowed the phrase for his novel.  In  both cases, the grapes of wrath are not sour, but rather a quasi-bibilical reference to God's justice. Take a look here for lyrics and history.


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## wildan1

Bobbum said:


> In a movie just the other night sour grapes came up, and the French subtitles said _Mauvais perdant.  _


This one gets my vote for the real nuance behind of _sour grapes_.

(I don't think any English-speaker thinks about La Fontaine when they use the expression--most of us probably have no idea where the expression comes from. So I am skeptical about the need to find an expression in French that would link to that. It certainly isn't needed if a translation from English is supposed to render what people are thinking when they say that.)


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## Budd

_Mauvais perdant_ sounds like "sore loser," and that's not the same as sour grapes in AE certainly. The sore loser is on the short end of a competition; the believer in sour grapes has come up short on his own: not much of a nuance there. If, as Liloia suggests, literate people might get the reference to LaFontaine, then what's the harm?  It may be an expression—how many have we rassled with here?—that is not going anywhere.  Pity.


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## wildan1

I don't really see a great difference between _sour grapes _and _sore loser_, now that you mention it, Budd. 

How would you say _sour grapes_ in French, if not _mauvais perdant _?


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## greatbear

Coming back to "sour grapes" themselves, I don't think "mauvais perdant" would be a bad translation in certain contexts. However, if the person is all alone and unable to achieve something, which often is the case when "sour grapes" is utilised, one cannot say "mauvais perdant" because he or she hasn't really lost to anyone.


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## Budd

*Wildan1*, you wrote, *"How would you say sour grapes in French, if not mauvais perdant ?"*                 How indeed?  That seems to be the question fueling this very long thread, and the answer may be You don't, at least not well. You may find the distinction I made between sour grapes and sore loser too slight, but I believe it's significant: the personal failure as opposed to a loss to a competitor. For a movie sub-title (as proposed above) it's not an awful translation and, yes, it gives a rough sense, but it's a _pis-aller_, one bit of dialogue in a long stream of words.
[...]


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## Mistou

How about "MAUVAISE FOI"?
It literally means "bad faith" which I think suits the denial character expressed in "sour grapes".


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