# Most polysyllabic+least corrupt words inherited from Latin?



## Lusus Naturae

Greetings
I'm looking for words (and names) inherited from Latin with as many syllables as possible and spellings as close to the original as possible.
Is it true that often among the descendants of a Latin word (e.g., _adiacens_), the more polysyllabic and less corrupt ones are borrowed (_adjacent, adiacente_), the less polysyllabic and more corrupt ones are inherited (_aise, ease_)?


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## Testing1234567

Your native language is same as mine 



Lusus Naturae said:


> Is it true that often among the descendants of a Latin word (e.g., _adiacens_), the more polysyllabic and less corrupt ones are borrowed (_adjacent, adiacente_), the less polysyllabic and more corrupt ones are inherited (_aise, ease_)?



That's unavoidable, as words tend to simplify over time, and lenition often leads to loss of syllables and "corruption".


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## Testing1234567

Also, Latin underwent a lot of changes at it went to Vulgar Latin, which should have been a period of at least 5 centuries where nobody could read or write.

An example that I found is Latin *mandūcāre* [man.duːˈkaː.rɛ] (to eat) > Italian *manducare* [man.du.ˈkaː.re] (to eat), with possibly restored "*d*".


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## Nino83

In Sicilian we have _masculu_ from _masculum_ (accusative). 
_masculu(m)_ (Latin) > _masclo > maschio_ ['maskjo] (Italian), _macho_ (Spanish, Portuguese),_ mâle_ (French). 
Anyway, in other similar words the intertonic vowel was lost, as in other languages.


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## Scholiast

Greetings


Lusus Naturae said:


> Is it true that often among the descendants of a Latin word (e.g., _adiacens_), the more polysyllabic and less corrupt ones are borrowed (_adjacent, adiacente_), the less polysyllabic and more corrupt ones are inherited (_aise, ease_)?


Yes, it tends to be true, but this is not particularly significant or interesting as an _aperçu_, as "longer" Latin words, both in antiquity and in more recent history, tend to be the property of an educated élite, and are less commonly used, so (a) are more likely to be transliterated directly from the Latin, for want of an existing equivalent in the "home" language—especially while Latin remained the international language of science and scholarship; and (b) less subject to evolution in either pronunciation or orthography than "shorter" words.

Σ


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## Sardokan1.0

Testing1234567 said:


> Also, Latin underwent a lot of changes at it went to Vulgar Latin, which should have been a period of at least 5 centuries where nobody could read or write.
> 
> An example that I found is Latin *mandūcāre* [man.duːˈkaː.rɛ] (to eat) > Italian *manducare* [man.du.ˈkaː.re] (to eat), with possibly restored "*d*".



in Sardinian we have :

_- mandigare, mandicare, manigare, manicare (in central-northern Sardinian)_
_- pappare or pappai (in origin "pappari") in central-southern Sardinian_

there are hundreds of these archaisms in Sardinian, some example :

_Latin - Sardinian

hominem - homine : man
femina - femina : woman
pisinnus - pitzinnu : child
heri - heris, d'heris - yesterday
hodie - hoe, hoje : today
cras - cras : tomorrow
domus - domo (northern Sardinian) domu (southern Sardinian) : house
janua - janna : door
cito - chito : soon, early (pronounce "kito")
tandem - tando : then
post - pùstis : after
etiam - éja : yes
immo - émmo : yes
quaerere - quérrere : to want
ipse, ipsa, ipsum - isse, issa, issu : it, she, he
nobis, vobis - nòis, bòis : we, you
ipsorum - issòro : their
ipsa hora - issàra : a moment ago
_


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## Testing1234567

Sardokan1.0 said:


> in Sardinian we have :
> 
> _- mandigare, mandicare, manigare, manicare (in central-northern Sardinian)_
> _- pappare or pappai (in origin "pappari") in central-southern Sardinian_
> 
> there are hundreds of these archaisms in Sardinian, some example :
> 
> _Latin - Sardinian
> 
> hominem - homine : man
> femina - femina : woman
> pisinnus - pitzinnu : child
> heri - heris, d'heris - yesterday
> hodie - hoe, hoje : today
> cras - cras : tomorrow
> domus - domo (northern Sardinian) domu (southern Sardinian) : house
> janua - janna : door
> cito - chito : soon, early (pronounce "kito")
> tandem - tando : then
> post - pùstis : after
> etiam - éja : yes
> immo - émmo : yes
> quaerere - quérrere : to want
> ipse, ipsa, ipsum - isse, issa, issu : it, she, he
> nobis, vobis - nòis, bòis : we, you
> ipsorum - issòro : their
> ipsa hora - issàra : a moment ago_



Please note that OP is asking for polysyllabic... your examples are mostly bisyllabic


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## Sardokan1.0

sorry, my distraction, I'll add some later


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## sotos

Modern Gr. surname PrimikIrios from L. primicerius.

I think the degree of corruption probably depends on the "distance" between the languages.


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## Testing1234567

sotos said:


> Modern Gr. surname PrimikIrios from L. primicerius.
> 
> I think the degree of corruption probably depends on the "distance" between the languages.


Are you sure that it is not a borrowing? Greek is not a descendant of Latin.


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## Nino83

Another one is _persica/pessica_ (Sicilian) from _persicum_, peach.
_Pêssego_ (Portuguese) but _pesca_ (Italian), _pêche_ (French).


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## Testing1234567

Nino83 said:


> Another one is _persica/pessica_ (Sicilian) from _persicum_, peach.
> _Pêssego_ (Portuguese) but _pesca_ (Italian), _pêche_ (French).


Sure, there are many preserved examples in Sardinian and Sicillian, but so far only my example has 4 syllables... Everyone has been focusing on "least corrupt", and nobody noticed "most polysyllabic".


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## Nino83

Testing1234567 said:


> only my example has 4 syllables


_Manducare_ seems to be a learned word. 


> *(lett.)* mangiare:_ e come 'l pan per fame si manduca_ (DANTE _Inf._ XXXII, 127)
> Etimologia: ← lat. _manducā_re, deriv. di _mandĕ_re ‘masticare’.


Ricerca | Garzanti Linguistica 

lett. = letterario = literary


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## Testing1234567

Nino83 said:


> _Manducare_ seems to be a learned word.


What about *manucare*?


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## Nino83

Testing1234567 said:


> What about *manucare*?


It's the first time I hear this word. 
Anyway, the words you're proposing have 4 syllables only because they're verbs in the infinitive tense (i.e the fourth syllable is the suffix _-(a)re_).


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## Sardokan1.0

*** the Sardinian meaning, sometimes is slightly different from the Latin one

_Latin - __Sardinian_


Spoiler



_tripaliare - tribagliare (central-north Sardinian) trabagliare, traballare (central Sardinian) traballai (in origin "traballari", south Sardinian) = *to work*_
_tribulare - tribulare = *to suffer, to torment*_
_computare - cumpidare = *to ransack, to search*_
_ad captare - agattare, acattare, acciappare = *to find*_
_adstringere - astrìnghere = *to tighten*_
_effundere - iffùndere = *to pour, to soak*_
_accipere or accapare - acchipire = *to achieve, to have success, to succeed*_
_fabulare, fabellare - faveddare, faeddare = *to speak*_
_pertundere - pertùnghere = *to perforate*_
_interpedire - tropedìre, tropeìre, trobeìre = to tie the ankles with a rope (it's usually a system to immobilize an horse if it's in the wild, he's able to walk but not to run or jump)_
_stillare - istiddiare = *to splash*_
_incubare - incubare, incupare = *to put in a barrel* (cuba, cupa = barrel)_
_intra pistare - trampistare = *to trample* (the original meaning could be something like "to trample between feet")_
_soricarium - sorigarzu, sorigalzu, sorigarju = *mouse trap*
catulinus - cattulinu, 'attulinu, battulinu = *kitten*
catellus - cateddu = *doggie*
pastinaca - pistinaja, fistinaja, fustinaja, fustenaja = *carrot*
persicae - pèssiche, pèssighe = *peach *(unlike Italian where is feminine, in Sardinian is masculine)
praecocus - paracocco, barracocco, piricoccu = *apricot*
praenomen - paranòmene, paralùmene = *nickname *(nòmene, lùmene = name; cognòmene = surname)
petroselinum - pedrusìmula, pedrusèmene = *parsley*
cucumis-cucumeris - cucùmere, cugùmere = *cucumber*
cucurbita - corcorìca, corcorìga, corcorìja = *zucchini*
cucumellus - cucumeddu, cugumeddu = *mushroom *(cucumellus, diminutive of cucullus = hood; in Sardinian "cucuddu or cuguddu"; notice that the part "udd" has the same identical pronounce of "hood")
coquinarius - coghinèri = *cook*_


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## Testing1234567

Nino83 said:


> It's the first time I hear this word.


Hmm...



Nino83 said:


> Anyway, the words you're proposing have 4 syllables only because they're verbs in the infinitive tense (i.e the fourth syllable is the suffix _-are_).


We don't expect something like *interrogatiuncula* to be passed down 

French *admonester* is quite strange... the *ad*- hints heavily as borrowing, but from which word?


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## Nino83

Testing1234567 said:


> Hmm...


I meant that I think it's a learned word, very literary (for example, here there are examples from Dante, Boccaccio, and it is considered _antica_, old).


Testing1234567 said:


> but so far only my example has 4 syllables... Everyone has been focusing on "least corrupt", and nobody noticed "most polysyllabic".


I want to clarify this point.
From Latin to Romance, the syllables that were loss very early were the *postonic* vowels in proparoxytones. In Latin the stress was placed on the penultimate syllable but if this syllable was weak, it was placed on the third-last syllable.
This is why today in Italian and in other Romance languages the only _parole bisdrucciole_ (words with the stress on the fourth-last syllable) are verbs (with or without pronouns), like _àbitano, lasciàteglielo_ and the like. Many suffixes take the stress, so we have _velóce_ but _veloceménte_.
So, the _pretonic_ syllables were mantained while the _postonic_ were more easily dropped.


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## guihenning

Exército, precipício, terremoto/terramoto/terromoto, pêssego, excrescência, discrepância, epílogo, indulgência, dissimilitude
[ex.'er.ci.to], [pre.ci.'pi.ci.o], [ter.re.'mo.to], ['pes.se.go], [ex.cres.'cen.ci.a], [dis.cre.'pan.ci.a], [e.'pi.lo.go], [in.dul.'gen.ci.a], [dis.si.mi.li.'tu.de]


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## Testing1234567

guihenning said:


> Exército, precipício, terremoto/terramoto/terromoto, pêssego, excrescência, discrepância, epílogo, indulgência, dissimilitude
> [ex.'er.ci.to], [pre.ci.'pi.ci.o], [ter.re.'mo.to], ['pes.se.go], [ex.cres.'cen.ci.a], [dis.cre.'pan.ci.a], [e.'pi.lo.go], [in.dul.'gen.ci.a], [dis.si.mi.li.'tu.de]


Are you sure they are *inherited* from Latin?


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## guihenning

Ah! So I got the question wrong. Sorry


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## Testing1234567

pêssego seems to be inherited.


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## Scholiast

Greetings all round


Nino83 said:


> _Manducare_ seems to be a learned word


Not sure about this—L&S_ s.v._:
*mandūco* , āvi, ātum (in the
*I.*_dep._ form, *mandūcor* , ari, Lucil., Afran., and Pompon. ap. _Non. 477, 8 sq._ (_Pomp. Com. Rel. v. 100_ Rib.; _Afran. ib. v. 184_); cf. Prisc. 799 P.), 1, v. a. a lengthened form of 2 mando.
*I.* *Lit.*, _to chew, masticate; to eat by chewing_ (ante-class. and post-Aug.): “manducato candido pane,”  _Varr. R. R. 3, 7, 9_; *Sen. Ep. 95, 27*.—
*II.* *Transf.*, _to eat, devour_: bucceas, Aug. ap. *Suet. Aug. 76*: crudum manduces Priamum Priamique pisinnos, Labeo in Schol. *Pers. 1, 4*.​And in this Forum it is barely necessary to point out that this is clearly Vulgar Latin, as is evident from its survival in Romance legacy languages (_manger_, _mangiare _&c.).

And not so much diversionary from the OP's topic: a late and derivative epic 'poem' has the word 'Constantinopolitani', which would be susceptible to an even longer genitive plural, 'Constantinopolitanorum'!

Σ


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## Nino83

Scholiast said:


> this is clearly Vulgar Latin, as is evident from its survival in Romance legacy languages (_manger_, _mangiare_)


I agree, Scholiast. 
I haven't said that _manducare_ was a learned word in Vulgar Latin. I've only said that the *Italian* verb _manducare_ is learned while _mangiare_ is the inherited form and pronunciation of the word.


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## irinet

Nino83 said:


> Another one is _persica/pessica_ (Sicilian) from _persicum_, peach.
> _Pêssego_ (Portuguese) but _pesca_ (Italian), _pêche_ (French).


*Piersică* and _ascultare _in my language.
From the Latin _panticem_, we have _pântece. _And from _capitina_, I believe we have _căpățână._


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## Gavril

Spanish _prójimo_ "neigbor, fellow man" (_amar al prójimo_ "to love one's neighbor") is from Latin _proximum_ "nearest, next", and retains the three-syllable structure and the (I think?) antepenultimate stress of the original word.

However, "retains" may be the wrong word to use here, since I'm not sure that _prójimo_ developed uninterrupted from _proximum_ over the past 2 millennia -- perhaps the form of _prójimo_ has been partially restored to look more like the original in recent centuries. (Something like that seems to have happened with words like _ejemplo_ < _exemplum,_ which shows the _x_ > _j_ change but not the expected change of -_mpl_- > -_nch_-, as in _ancho_ < _amplum_.)


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