# FR: l'orange, de l'orange / le orange, du orange - élision ou disjonction ?



## Pasiphae II

In spoken French is there a liaison between "le" and"orange"?  [in reference to the color orange]


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## Liototo45

Hey Pasiphae,

Nop, in spoken french, you'll eat the "e" and say "l'orange", like: "ma couleur préférée est l'orange" (my favourite color is orange).
If you want to describe sthg though, you'll use "le/la", like "le bus orange", "le manteau orange", "la couleur orange"...


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## Pasiphae II

Merci beaucoup, Liototo45!

I saw the sentence written: "J'adore le orange." And then I thought I heard it spoken with a very slight pause between the "le" and the "orange." I knew there was a liaison between "je" and "adore" but wasn't sure about "le" with "orange" because of its being written without the liaison. [This is, of course, in reference to the color and not the fruit.] By the way, it was in a French text!


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## Maître Capello

_J'adore *le* orange_ is indeed sometimes heard colloquially, but it is actually incorrect. You should definitely say/write _J'adore *l'*orange_.

By the way, this is not a liaison but an elision.


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## Liototo45

Sure, you can write 'J'adore le orange"... But, according to me, you don't say it orally, even if it is totally understandable. It seems more spontaneous or younger


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## Maître Capello

Liototo45 said:


> Sure, you can write 'J'adore le orange"


Well, you can definitely write all sorts of incorrect things, but they are mistakes nonetheless.

Regarding _le orange_, see Élision (absence d’) : « °le orange »:


> On entend parfois : « Je veux °*le* orange » (le pull orange, et non le pull bleu). L’élision, dans ce cas, reste pourtant obligatoire : _Je veux l’orange._


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## CapnPrep

_Le orange_ sounds pretty bad, but there are examples where the absence of elision/liaison sounds OK to me, e.g. _Il porte toujours du orange_ or _Ils ont des chaussettes rouges mais__ il me faut des oranges_ (without liaison).


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## Liototo45

Yes, it's true, you don't say "le orange" whether written or spoken. I'm very sorry about that.

Hmmmm, I'm strongly loosing my French...
Mea Culpa


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## JeanDeSponde

Liototo45 said:


> Yes, it's true, you don't say "le orange" whether written or spoken. I'm very sorry about that.


Well - it's just like _c'est pas correct_: ce n'est pas correct, yet you'll hear / read it very often.
I agree with CapPrep, in many cases I'll tend to say _rajoute du orange ; je prendrai le orange_.


> Les couleurs chaudes comme le jaune, _le orange_ ou le rouge sont éclatantes et s'intègrent bien dans un grand jardin ou un massif éloigné.
> (Philippe Collignon, _Le jardin_)


Curiously enough, I wouldn't say so with other colours such as _argent, ocre, indigo _etc.


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## Maître Capello

CapnPrep said:


> there are examples where the absence of elision/liaison sounds OK to me, e.g. _Il porte toujours du orange_ or _Ils ont des chaussettes rouges mais il me faut des oranges_ (without liaison).


There may be two reasons for this:

Most *common* color names start with a consonant and hence are written with _du_ (e.g., _du jaune, du rouge, du vert, _etc.).
To avoid the confusion with the fruit, which is always pronounced _l'orange_ and _les oranges_ (with liaison), the disjunction might be preferred by some.


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## TSR

I have rarely come across "l'orange" when it's not the fruit. I know that it is not incorrect when you mention the colour. However, I would never take any risk. "L'orange" might be confusing. This is the only case in which, in French, I would avoid the official phonetic rule!


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## Nanon

CapnPrep said:


> _Le orange_ sounds pretty bad, but there are examples where the absence of elision/liaison sounds OK to me, e.g. _Il porte toujours du orange_ or _Ils ont des chaussettes rouges mais il me faut des oranges_ (without liaison).


Eight years later... I disagree, sorry.

_Il porte toujours du orange_ does not sound OK to many ears, including mine. It is frequently used, though. The reason may be an analogy with the most frequent colours, as explained above (_du rouge, du vert, du bleu, du blanc..._). However, saying _du orange_ creates an exception to the rule. Would you say _*du indigo, du ivoire, du azur, du or, du abricot, du acajou_...? If the answer is no, saying _du orange_ creates an exception to the rule. Instead of simplifying the rule _[de + le + initial vowel <=> du]_, it makes it more complex  _[de + le + vowel <=> du except for "orange"]. _The same goes for_ au orange_: would you say *_l'arc-en-ciel va du rouge au indigo_? 
The second sentence should read _Ils ont des chaussettes rouges mais il m'en faut des orange_ (without liaison indeed, but _orange _is invariant when used as a colour adjective).


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## Bezoard

Nanon said:


> The second sentence should read _Ils ont des chaussettes rouges mais il m'en faut des orange_ (without liaison indeed, but _orange _is invariant when used as a colour adjective).


Why without liaison ? Since you tend to do the liaison in other circumstances and do not like exceptions, why not here ?
Wouldn't you do the liaison in : _J'ai des chaussettes neuves mais il m'en faut desᴗanciennes pour aller dans le jardin._


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## Nanon

Bezoard said:


> Why without liaison ? Since you tend to do the liaison in other circumstances and do not like exceptions, why not here ?


As stated above, not to create confusion with _desᴗoranges_ (fruit) - there's no more than that.
I say _desᴗanciennes_ but, with colour adjectives coming from nouns, I say _des orange, des ivoire, des indigo_. And I daresay it's not just me.
Please do not think that I am getting personal about exceptions. I have previous experience as a teacher of French as a foreign language and as such, I tend to start by teaching standard language first, then exploring other variants, depending on learners' levels of proficiency, needs and preferences. I don't dislike exceptions - but the less exceptions you have, the easier it is to apply a rule...


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## Bezoard

Nanon said:


> As stated above, not to create confusion with _desᴗoranges_ (fruit) - there's no more than that.


Although in the context of " _Ils ont des chaussettes rouges mais il m'en faut des orange_", the confusion with the fruit seems unlikely !
So that's the same reason alleged by those who say "au orange, du orange" instead of "à l'orange, de l'orange" ; but nevertheless you do not say "au orange", and accept the risk of creating confusion! Sorry, Nanon, if I seem to be nitpicking, but I try to understand whether there is a consistent logic behind our speaking choices and habits.


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## Nanon

Sorry, confusion with what? There is no masculine fruit named orange. 
I will continue following the existing rules and not saying "au orange". And sorry again, but I am done with this topic.


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## Bezoard

When you hear "à l'orange, de l'orange", you cannot say whether the fruit or the color is concerned (except by the context, of course)


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## jekoh

Nanon said:


> I will continue following the existing rules and not saying "au orange".


You're not really following them though. I mean, the rules that say "le orange" is incorrect also make the liaison mandatory.

See Le orange pour l'orange | Académie française


> Un nom est particulièrement touché aujourd’hui : _orange. _Il ne s’agit pas du fruit ; on dit sans problème _l’orange est sucrée, _mais les choses se gâtent quand on parle de la couleur, puisque, même si l’on dit généralement _je vous jure, monsieur l’agent, je suis passé à l’orange, _on entend et on lit fréquemment _le orange, du orange. _Rappelons que le nom du fruit et celui de la couleur ont la même prononciation et bannissons cet inélégant hiatus.


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## Stéphane89

I can hardly think of a situation where you wouldn't be able to distinguish between the fruit and the colour. And in that case, I would be more likely to clarify the situation by saying _"de l'orange, la couleur, pas le fruit"_ than to say _"du orange"_, which sounds very wrong to me as well.

The same goes for _"des orange"_ without the liaison. Besides, the construction of the sentence does not allow for any confusion: if you say "_Ils ont des chaussettes rouges mais il me faut des oranges"_, you're talking about the fruit (and the sentence does not make a lot of sense); if you say "_Ils ont des chaussettes rouges mais il m'en faut des orange"_, you're talking about the colour of the socks.


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## Maître Capello

The color _orange_ (unlike the fruit) tends nowadays to behave like _onze_ where the article doesn't elide or trigger the liaison, i.e., you hear more and more often _le/du/au orange_ and _les/des/aux | oranges_ (without liaison) instead of the standard _l'/de l'/à l'orange_ and _les/des/aux‿oranges_ (with liaison).

As Bezoard pointed out, it is inconsistent to say _l'orange_ on one side and _les | oranges_ on the other. I however agree with Nanon that for some reason _les | oranges_ doesn't sound as bad as _le orange_, which is really terrible…



StefKE said:


> if you say "_Ils ont des chaussettes rouges mais il me faut des oranges"_, you're talking about the fruit


 Dans cette phrase il est pourtant évident qu'il est question d'une autre couleur que le rouge et pas de fruits… On pourrait d'ailleurs très bien dire _Ils ont des chaussettes rouges, mais il me faut des *vertes*_. Le pronom _en_ peut en effet très bien être omis ; nul besoin de dire _il m'*en* faut des orange/vertes/_etc.

Aspect d'ailleurs intéressant des choses, on remarquera la différence d'accord de _orange_ dans ces deux cas :

_Ils ont des chaussettes rouges, mais il me faut des orange*s*_. ← Ici _orange_ est un *substantif* et prend donc normalement la marque du pluriel.
_Ils ont des chaussettes rouges, mais il m'*en* faut des orange_. ← Ici _orange_ est un *adjectif* (qualifiant le pronom _en_) et reste donc invariable.


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## Swatters

I don't think I've _ever _heard orange with disjunction before. There might be a regional component here.


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