# colour/color adjective agreement



## white_ray

Hello,
Is there a plural concordance for colours in Arabic?
Here’s my sentence: "A roof (made) of red tiles."
Here's my attempt:
بِسَقْف مِن قِرْديمات حَمْراء
Many thanks!
wr


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## xebonyx

You're right about the plural form,   and I would reconstruct the sentence as:
سقف مصنوع من قرديمات حمر


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## white_ray

Hi xebonix,
Glad you’re there! 
What’s the ‘voweling’ for ‘مصنوع من’ (made of right?)?
Thus no plural for ‘red’? Is ‘حَمْراء’ feminine singular?
Shukran!
wr


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## xebonyx

Yes, that means "made of", maSnuu3a min.
And yes, technically that's the "plural" adjective for *non-human* plurals.


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## white_ray

Thanks again!! 
wr


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## suma

xebonyx said:


> You're right about the plural form,  and I would reconstruct the sentence as:
> سقف مصنوع من قرديمات حمر


 
Why are you using the animate/human plural for inanimate/non-human tiles?


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## Mahaodeh

white_ray said:


> Here’s my sentence: "A roof (made) of red tiles."
> Here's my attempt:
> بِسَقْف مِن قِرْديمات حَمْراء


First of all, you got the roof tiles wrong it's قرميدات 

I don't have a problem with not using مصنوع من as it's obvious from the context and that is quite common actually; anyway, in a context of a building مصنوع من would be weird as you don't "manufacture" a building, you build it so it should have been مبني من or مشيد من unless you are referring to the tiles.  I would not use it though because it's redundant and it's best to limit the number of words you use to what you actually need (خَيْرُ الكَلامِ ما قَلَّ ودَلّ).

You must also note that قرميدات is جمع قلة for قرميدة, the normal plural is simply قرميد.  So, to put it technically correct it would be: بِسَقْفٍ من قَرْمِيدٍ أحمر - but using قرميدات is also correct unless it's a technical report of some sort.

I also agree with the use of حُمْر, so your sentence should preferably be: بِسَقْفٍ من قَرْمِيدَاتٍ حُمْرٍ


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## xebonyx

Thanks for the detailed explanation as usual Maha.


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## white_ray

Thanks for the explanations.
I’m quite happy with the ‘مصنوعمن’anyway as I didn’t know it! 
wr


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## aurelien.demarest

Hi guys, 

what about the dual  I expect that this is the same principle..isn't it?

Like: 
غرفتين أحمران

thanks
Aurélien


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## Ghabi

^I think since غرفة is feminine, one has to turn أحمر to its feminine form حمراء, which is then turned to its dual form حمراوان.


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## Arabic_Police_999

غرفتان حمراوان
غرفتين حمراوين


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## OsamaAbdullah

I would say السقف مغطى بآجر أحمر rather than مصنوع or مشيد.

This reminds of a question, which is more correct? قرميد or آجر? I always use آجر since it sounds more Arabic to me than قرميد.

Thanks


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## Drink

I'm still confused about "قرميدات حمر". Why is a non-human feminine plural noun using a masculine plural adjective? Or is حمر being used as a noun?


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## OsamaAbdullah

I don't think قرميدات is correct in the first place, the plural form is قرميد


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## Drink

Both Mahaodeh and xebonyx have said that "قرميدات حمر" is correct (and that even if قرميد is a better choice, قرميدات is still possible).


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## OsamaAbdullah

I beg to differ. If there is a possible plural that would be قرميد but after searching I have found that the plural is قراميد. I am sorry I don't have the reason why it's not قرميدات but it just doesn't sound right, in addition to the fact, I didn't find قرميدات except in Algerian and it is not MSA.


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## Saley

xebonyx said:


> سقف مصنوع من قرديمات حمر





suma said:


> Why are you using the animate/human plural for inanimate/non-human tiles?





Drink said:


> Why is a non-human feminine plural noun using a masculine plural adjective?


W. Fischer mentions this peculiarity in _A Grammar of Classical Arabic_ (p. 75):


> *Note 2.* Contrary to the rules of agreement (§§113 f.), _faʿlāʾu_ may occur only for feminine singulars, but not for plurals and collectives. _fuʿlun_ must always be used instead: حمام ورق _ḥamāmun wurqun_ ‘ash-color doves’, بيوت صفر _buyūtun ṣufrun_ ‘yellow houses’.


According to this, حمر should be used in Mahaodeh’s variant as well, since قرميد is a collective noun:


Mahaodeh said:


> بِسَقْفٍ من قَرْمِيدٍ أحمر [حُمْرٍ]


I’m somewhat confused with Fischer’s wording “_faʿlāʾu_ may occur only for feminine singulars, but not for plurals and collectives”. Are any adjectives in the feminine singular form ever used to describe a collective noun?


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## Drink

Thanks! That makes a lot of sense.



Saley said:


> I’m somewhat confused with Fischer’s wording “_faʿlāʾu_ may occur only for feminine singulars, but not for plurals and collectives”. Are any adjectives in the feminine singular form ever used to describe a collective noun?



Perhaps there are some collectives that are feminine?


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## Ghabi

Non-human plural nouns with plural agreement sound either colloquial or archaic; I don't think that's what one would expect in modern written Arabic (one says, for example, اللحوم الحمراء or البطاقات الخضراء).


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## Mahaodeh

OsamaAbdullah said:


> I don't think قرميدات is correct in the first place, the plural form is قرميد



قرميد is not a plural, it's اسم جنس - I suppose you can call it 'collective form', it is treated as singular.



Drink said:


> Perhaps there are some collectives that are feminine?



Yes, there are some collectives that are feminine, example: ناس, although technically people are not inanimate.



Ghabi said:


> Non-human plural nouns with plural agreement sound either colloquial or archaic



I don't know if it's archaic, I've read both cases even in MSA. The rule is, as I remember from my study years, that both are allowed in the plural.



OsamaAbdullah said:


> This reminds of a question, which is more correct? قرميد or آجر? I always use آجر since it sounds more Arabic to me than قرميد.



Technically, there is a difference: الآجر are mud bricks that were dried in the sun. القرميد والطابوق are mud bricks dried in furnaces. القرميد has a further distinction, colour is usually added to it - most commonly red but other colours may be used. In modern times it became common practice (in the construction industry) to call the squared bricks that are used for building in general طابوق, and the corrugated ones used for roofing قرميد.


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