# thief - steal / voleur - voler



## ThomasK

Maybe you have noticed too that in Germanic languages a thief is neither a "thiever" nor a "stealer". Yet, in French there is *"voler/ voleur*". But then again in Italian: "ladro/rubare". How about your language? Do you have one root for both or not?

I suddenly realize though that it does work for robbing: _*rob/ robber*, roven/ rover _(Dutch), _rauben/ Räuber _(German)...  But of course: is that quite the same thing? Robbing seems like "taking away 'stealthily'" and needs a direct object; it might refer to stealing from a person more specifically, that might be the difference - also explaining why "steal" does not need a DO.  I wonder whether we have that distinction in all languages...


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## jazyk

In Portuguese the most common words are:

Thief - ladrão, from Latin latro, latronis. Ladra is the feminine form.
Rob/steal - roubar, from a Germanic source.


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## ThomasK

No specific verb for stealing, is there? You could not imagine some difference between  stealing something and robbing a person or a place in Portuguese?


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## jazyk

To steal - roubar.
To rob - roubar.

Portuguese speakers have trouble using steal and rob correctly in English.

There are slang words, but these are the main verbs.


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## Sardokan1.0

There are indeed various and different verbs and words for Thief / Steal both in Italian and in Sardinian, some of Latin origin, others of Germanic origins.

*Italian
*
_*Rubare, Derubare* = to steal, to rob
*Rapinare *= to rob a bank, an house

*Rapina *= bank robbery, house robbery
*Furto *= theft

*Ladro *= thief
*Rapinatore *= bank robber, house robber

From *Germanic *: Rauben = to steal - *Latin *"Rapere" = to kidnap, to take away - *Latin* "Furare" = to steal - *Vulgar Latin* "Latro" and *Greek *"Làtris" = thief, brigand, mercenary
_
*Sardinian
*
_*Furare *= to steal, to rob
*Irrobare *= to rob a bank, an house

*Irrobatoriu *= bank robbery, house robbery
*Fura, Furadura* = theft

*Ladru *= thief
*Furadore *= thief
_
*P.S.*
_Also other verbs are used as vulgar synonymous of to steal.
_
*Italian
*
_*Fottere *= to fuck --> *I Ladri ci hanno fottuto la macchina* = The thieves "fucked" us the car
_
*Sardinian*

_*Futtire *= to fuck --> *Sos ladros nos han futtidu sa macchina.
Pijàre *= to grab, to grasp --> *Sos ladros nos han pijàdu sa macchina.*


_


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## ThomasK

Very interesting contribution, thanks.

As for Italian/ Sardinian: I suppose the "fottere"/ "futtire" require an "involved" object then: _they f...ed *us* the car_...

As for Italian: interesting addition, this "rapinare"! - And thanks for the etymological information!


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## Sardokan1.0

ThomasK said:


> As for Italian/ Sardinian: I suppose the "fottere"/ "futtire" require an "involved" object then: _they f...ed *us* the car_...


Yes, it involves some stolen object


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## ThomasK

Yes, but I tried to make a grammatical point, i.e., that the person involved should be referred to in the sentence as some kind of dative (_f...ed *us*  [kind of a dative] X [stolen object, direct object]_


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## apmoy70

Greek:

(A) *«Ληστής»* [liˈstis] (masc. & fem.) --> _robber_ < Classical masc. noun *«λῃστής» lē̜stḗs* & *«λῃστήρ» lē̜stḗr*, fem. *«λῄστειρᾱ» lḗ̜stei̯rā* --> _plunderer, pirate, robber_ < Classical fem. noun *«λείᾱ» leí̯ā* --> _booty, spoils, plundered cattle_ (PIE *leh₂u- _to capture, seize_ cf Lat. lucrum, _profit_, Proto-Germanic *launą > Ger. Lohn, Dt. loon).
Robbery: *«Ληστεία»* [liˈsti.a] (fem.) < Classical fem. *«λῃστείᾱ» lē̜steí̯ā*.

(B) *«Κλέφτης»* [ˈkleftis] & learned *«κλέπτης»* [ˈkleptis] (masc.), *«κλέφτρα»* [ˈkleftra] (fem.) --> _thief_ < Classical deverbal *«κλέπτης» kléptēs* (masc.), *«κλέπτριᾱ» kléptriā* (fem.) < Classical v. *«κλέπτω» kléptō* --> _to steal, conceal, cheat, deceive_ (PIE *klep- _to steal_ cf Lat. clepere, ToB kälyp- _to steal_, Proto-Germanic *hlefaną > Goth. hlifan, _to steal_).
Theft: *«Κλοπή»* [kloˈpi] (fem.) < Classical fem. *«κλοπή» klŏpḗ* (fem.).

(C) *«Λωποδύτης»* [lopoˈðitis] (masc.), *«λωποδύτρια»* [lopoˈðitri.a] (fem.) --> _pilferer, pickpocket, petty thief, robber_ < Classical masc. noun *«λωποδύτης» lōpŏdútēs* --> lit. _thief of clothes_, later, _petty thief_ < Classical deverbal masc. noun *«λῶπος» lôpŏs* --> _pod, coat, mantle, cloak_, lengthened _o-grade_ of v. *«λέπω» lépō* --> _to peel off_ (with no direct correspondences outside Greek, possibly of Pre-Greek substrate) + Classical v. *«δύω» dúō* --> _(trans.) to enter, dive, plunge, (intrans.) to get into, slip into, put on_ (PIE *deu̯- _to go in, enter_ cf Skt. उपादत्ते (upā*datte*), _to take up_).
Petty theft: *«Λωποδυσία»* [lopoðiˈsi.a] (fem.) < Classical fem. *«λωποδυσίᾱ» lōpŏdŭsíā*.

(D) *«Διαρρήκτης»* [ði.aˈɾiktis] (masc.), *«διαρρήκτρια»* [ði.aˈɾiktri.a] (fem.) --> _burglar_, a MoGr word (constructed in 1887) from the pre-existing Classical v. *«διαῤῥήγνυμι» dĭărrʰḗgnumĭ* & *«διαῤῥηγνύω» dĭărrʰēgnúō* --> _to break through_ < Classical prefix & preposition «διά» diá + Classical athematic v. *«ῥήγνυμι» rʰḗgnumĭ* --> _to tear (up), break (to pieces), burst_ (PIE *ureh₁ǵ- _to break_ cf Proto-Slavic *rězati, _to cut_ > Rus. резать, Bul. режа, BCS резати/rezati, Pol. rzezać).
Burglary: *«Διάρρηξη»* [ðiˈaɾik͡si] (fem.) < Classical 3rd declension fem. noun *«διάῤῥηξις» dĭắrrʰēk͡sis* (nom. sing.), *«διαρρήξεως» dĭărrʰḗk͡sĕōs* (gen. sing.) --> _breaking through, breach_.

_Edit_: Forgot to add the verbs => (A) *«ληστεύω»* [liˈstevo] < Classical v. «ληστεύω» lēsteú̯ō; (B) *«κλέβω»* [ˈklevo] & learned *«κλέπτω»* [ˈklepto] < Classical v. *«κλέπτω» kléptō*; (C) & (D) do not have corresponding verbs in MoGr. We describe the action periphrastically.


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## bibax

Czech:

*krásti* (to steal), *krádež* (theft), *zloděj* (thief), zlo-děj (evil-doer), dim. [drobný] *zlodějíček* ([petty] small-time thief);

_(Krádež/Theft is the taking of another person's property or services without that person's permission or consent with the intent to deprive the rightful owner of it.)_

*loupiti* (to rob), *loupež* (robbery), *lupič* (robber);

an obsolete term of the same root: *loupežník* = highwayman (they had blunderbuss pistols and used to say: Money or life!);

_(Loupež/Robbery is the crime of taking or attempting to take anything of value by force, threat of force, or by putting the victim in fear.)_


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## ThomasK

@Apmoy: then the first two have a V equivalent (or N equivalent); would there be a semantic explanation available for that?

@bibax: then robbing seems to behave normally ;-) whereas the thief steals, does not "thieve"... ;-)

So in both cases there is no N/V-equivalence in some cases, along with West-Germanic languages, is that correct?


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## momai

Arabic:
*to steal:* سرق saraqa --> (s-r-q) to steal or to rob
*Theft:* سرقة sariqah
*Thief:* لص liSS  --> (l-S-S) means to fasten sth to sth else, probably related to (l-S-q) which means to paste. A similar word can be also found in the phoenician inscription of Karatepe Bilingual from the 8th century BC.
Another word for thief is حرامي Haraami. It means someone who breaks (islamic) laws, and hence has to do with "Haraam", I guess.
*to rob:* سطا على saTaa 3ala --> (s-T-w) to raid on sb
*Robbery:* سطو saTuu
*Robber:* theorotically, it should be ساطٍ saaTin but it's not really used.
*pickpocket:* نشّال na$$aal ($ for sh) --> (n-sh-l) to take out
*Burglary:* سرقة المنازل lit. house robbery
And as a bonus :
*Stealing of furniture:* تعفيش _ta3fiish _inf. /syr. --> عفش furniture. A very commen thing during the war in Syria, unfortunately.


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## ThomasK

Thanks! _[Just a hint: if you put some key words in bold, like to steal, thief, to rob, pickpocket, we see some structure rightaway - but mind you, your information is perfect!]_  So there is a clear distinction between stealing and robbing, but then no link between 'thief' and 'to steal'... "Haraami" just suggests that it is wrong mainly. Can you use the "steal" verb without an object?

There is a very specific word then for stealing furniture, but I do not know what the precise verb is: does the "_ta3fiish _inf. /syr." suggest that the verb is simply based on the word itself without suffixes?


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## momai

ThomasK said:


> So there is a clear distinction between stealing and robbing, but then no link between 'thief' and 'to steal'...


I Just remembered that there is actually another word for thief which is derived from this root , namely سارق saariq the present participle of this verb.


> Can you use the "steal" verb without an object?


Yes, you can but it's usually followed by an object.


> There is a very specific word then for stealing furniture, but I do not know what the precise verb is: does the "_ta3fiish _inf. /syr." suggest that the verb is simply based on the word itself without suffixes?


3affash [v.] --> ta3fiish [n.] 
No, it doesn't have suffixes but rather is constructed on the basis of the pattern CaCCaC [v.]--> taCCiiC [n.]


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## bazq

Hebrew:

גנב [ganav] = thief.
לגנוב [lignov] = to steal.
same root ג-נ-ב (g-n-v)

שודד [shoded] = robber
לשדוד [lishdod] = to rob.
same root ש-ד-ד (sh-d-d).


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## Yendred

ThomasK said:


> I suddenly realize though that it does work for robbing: _*rob/ robber*, roven/ rover _(Dutch), _rauben/ Räuber _(German)...



In French, in addition to _voler/voleur_, we have the verb _dérober_, but no "_dérobeur_".
_dérober _adds indeed the "stealthily" aspect_, and dérober _is more literary and elevated style than _voler_.


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## apmoy70

ThomasK said:


> @Apmoy: then the first two have a V equivalent (or N equivalent); would there be a semantic explanation available for that?
> ...


Yes there is, «ληστής» & «ληστεύω» imply threat with the use of weapon, «κλέπτης» & «κλέπτω» are more generic. Interestingly, the two "thieves" crucified together with Jesus on Golgotha, are not simply «κλέπται» (masc. nom. pl.) according to the text, but «λησταί» (masc. nom. pl.) which implies they were using force to steal, perhaps even killed to plunder.


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## Awwal12

Russian has pretty interesting patterns.
"Thief" is "вор". There is a derived verb "воровать" (vorovát') - to steal (imp. only, transitive and intransitive). However, there is also a verb "красть" (krast', imp., predominantly transitive), which doesn't form any word for an actor (aside from several old compounds like "конокрад" konokrád "a horse thief", or "казнокрад" kaznokrád "embezzler of state funds").


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## Dymn

*Catalan, Spanish*

to steal, to rob - _robar_
theft - _robatori_, _robo_

thief - _lladre_, _ladrón_

to rob (an institution like a bank) - _atracar_
robbery - _atracament, atraco_
robber - _atracador_
(root from Arabic, same verb as "to dock" or "to berth")

I think "to rob" might be translated as _robar _or _atracar _depending on the context, maybe it's similar to Italian_ rubare/rapinare_. Maybe _atracar _is closer to "to assault"...

There are also words like _furt/hurto_ and _furtar/hurtar _but they're not as common. Then for colloquial alternatives: _pispar _(Catalan), _mangar _(Spanish)... In Catalan we can also use _fotre _like Sardinian or Italian: _m'han fotut la cartera, _which is not a surprise because this verb has lots of meanings...


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## Sardokan1.0

Dymn said:


> _atracar _



Interesting, this verb reminds the Italian "attraccare" (to dock).  Example - la nave ha attraccato = the ship has docked

Probable cognate of the English "to attract", from Latin "ad tractare" = to drag

Perhaps in origin also in Spanish the verb had a similar meaning, and acquired the synonymous "to assault" during the epoch of pirates, when they used to dock their ships to the victim ships to assault them.


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## j-p-c

French: there are so many words to do with stealing...

"Subtiliser" is very stealthy, "subtil" being the opposite adjective to "grossier" or coarse.

"Dérober" as already given, stealthy as would be required to steal someone's dress (robe). Note that it's also a reflexive verb as in "Les choses se dérobent à mon regard" (things escape my sight) or "Il se dérobe à la poursuite" (he escapes pursuit). Note the root "rob".

"Dévaliser", less crafty, as in stealing a luggage (valise), applied mainly to bank or jewelry store robbery.

"Détrousser" carries the idea of ripping up a package (trousseau) and is applied to stealing from travelers.(English "to truss", pack tightly)

"Cambrioler", to steal by forceful entry into a building (chambre = room).

More: "soustraire, escamoter, ravir, rapiner, chaparder, dépouiller, barboter, spolier, chouraver, faucher, piquer, rafler, "vol à la tire" (grabbing something from a pedestrian)", etc...


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## Awwal12

Awwal12 said:


> Russian has pretty interesting patterns.
> "Thief" is "вор". There is a derived verb "воровать" (vorovát') - to steal (imp. only, transitive and intransitive). However, there is also a verb "красть" (krast', imp., predominantly transitive), which doesn't form any word for an actor (aside from several old compounds like "конокрад" konokrád "a horse thief", or "казнокрад" kaznokrád "embezzler of state funds").


P.S.: If we add robbing to the picture, it would be the verb "грабить" (grábit') and, much like in English, the derived noun "грабитель" (grabítel') - with a native Slavic root remotely related to English "grab".


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## ThomasK

Some notes:
- interesting to see that Russian has no "stealer" as such but it does have a "horse-stealer" (/-krad/)
- it might be a very nice separate thread to find out about metaphors used for stealing, starting from j-p-c 's list; I might do it rightaway

The general impression seems to be that we mostly have thieves who don't "thieve" and people who steal, but no "stealers"...


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## Dymn

Sardokan1.0 said:


> Probable cognate of the English "to attract", from Latin "ad tractare" = to drag
> 
> Perhaps in origin also in Spanish the verb had a similar meaning, and acquired the synonymous "to assault" during the epoch of pirates, when they used to dock their ships to the victim ships to assault them.





Dymn said:


> (root from Arabic, same verb as "to dock" or "to berth")


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## Demiurg

ThomasK said:


> Maybe you have noticed too that in Germanic languages a thief is neither a "thiever" nor a "stealer".


In German, there's a proverb: _Der Hehler ist schlimmer als der Stehler_  (The fence is worse than the "stealer").

"Stehler" is a (rarely used) agent noun derived from the verb "stehlen" (_to steal_).


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## Armas

Finnish:

_varas_ "thief" -> _varastaa_ "to steal" (from Proto-Germanic *_wargaz_ "criminal")
(colloq.) _voro_ "thief" (from Rus. _вор_ [vor] "thief")
_näpistää_ "to pilfer" -> _näpistelijä_ (from _näppi_ "finger" or "finger tip")
(somewhat rare)_ ryövätä_ "to rob", _ryöväri_ "robber" (from Swedish _röva_ "to rob", _rövare_ "robber")
_ryöstää_ "to rob" -> _ryöstäjä_ "robber" (contamination of _ryövätä_ "to rob" with _riistää_ "to rip, wrench, snatch" or "to bereave, deprive" or possibly older than the Swedish loan)
_rosvo_ "bandit, robber" (also in compounds _merirosvo_ "pirate", _maantierosvo_ "highwayman") -> _rosvota_ "to rob" (probably from Rus. _разбой_ [razboj] "robbery")


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## franknagy

Very interesting difference.
In Hungarian: lop = steal, tolvaj = thief. But rabol=rob, rabló=robber.


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## Rallino

*Turkish:*
çalmak (to steal) - hırsız (thief)

*Kazakh:*
ұрлау / urlaý (to steal) - ұрлықшы / urlyqshy (thief)


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## Circunflejo

In *Spanish*, in addition to those quoted by Dymn on #19, there's

caco - thief
bandido (female: bandida) or bandolero (female: bandolera)- bandit

sisar - filch
sisador (female: sisadora) - someone who filches


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