# subjunctive - para que fuera dulce



## deltadawn

Ella decidio llamarla Apple para que fuera dulce como una manzana.
Ella decidio llamarla Apple para que tuviera mejillas ruborosas. 

She decided to call her Apple so that she woul be sweet as an apple.
She decided to call her Apple so that she had rosy cheeks like an apple.


I Don't find any other way to say it. Is that correct witten English?

Thank you friends!


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## k-in-sc

No.
Isn't English your native language?


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## deltadawn

I am totally off cause she told me that the Spanish poem has to be translated literally. She says is subjunctive but in English that's not subjunctive as far as I know.


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## flljob

deltadawn said:


> I am totally off cause she told me that the Spanish poem has to be translated literally. She says is subjunctive but in English that's not subjunctive as far as I know.


 
Pues tienes razón.


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## deltadawn

Thank you. Because fuera I can only translate as would be (possibility)nd tuviera for had. That's the way we talk in English, regardless. My teacher doesn't know much English, but is challenging. The other person said it was wrong, but not why.


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## deltadawn

Well, she told me it was wrong, so I figured out a colloquial form would be an option. For us is a simple past form since we dont have pasr subjunctive.


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## Magnalp

_she was _>> simple past form
_she were_ >> past subjunctive

_She eats_ >> simple present form
_She eat _>> present subjunctive

Solo vestigios, pero algo queda...


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## deltadawn

Thanks, You guys from Mexico are good. I get so confused with fuera, fuese. It boggles my mind. It's a good help that you know both languages because you see the point of my confusion.
Thanks, again


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## k-in-sc

"So that she were sweet" is not correct. "So that she had rosy cheeks" is not correct either. Any native speaker would know that.


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## deltadawn

I appreciate your interest. Perhaps here in NOLA we're not as good as you would expect us to be; yet, I will remind you that the forum is to give answers not talk from the Upper Room. This is Good Friday. Happy Easter.


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## k-in-sc

Native speakers don't say "for us is" or "a good help" either.


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## deltadawn

Ok, native. At least those gentlemen know another language. By the way, you should appreciate the fact that a young person is trying to learn. You sound like a frustrated eagle, Miss or Mister curmudgeon. Pour your sapienza on these foreigners. Perhaps you can see Madeira from your backyard. Don't forget to remind the Prez to show his B certificate. This forum is about language , not egos, OK, Prof.?


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## k-in-sc

Misrepresenting your native language is against forum rules.


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## Wandering JJ

Back on track - your original translations are good, not trying too hard to translate the 'para que fuera' bit too literally. It might help if you think of another, more literary translation, which is:

She decided to call her Apple in order that she MIGHT BE sweet, like an apple. [not 'as an apple']

PS Are you really a native English speaker?


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## k-in-sc

"In order that she might be sweet" retains the subjunctive of the original, but not its tone. It's old-fashioned-sounding. The conversational way to say it would be "so she would be sweet."
Deltadawn said her teacher didn't speak much English. That would explain the insistence on using the subjunctive. Spanish speakers tend to overuse it when speaking English, because it comes naturally to them and they don't know the constructions we use instead. 
My impression of deltadawn is that she is a bright young student who probably came to this country several years ago, functions well in English, thinks of herself as bilingual, and may not even be aware of her non-native errors. She would do well to read the rules of the forum, which are explicit about what to put for your native language(s).


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## Wandering JJ

Hi k-in-sc!

I was not suggesting that 'in order that she might be sweet' was a better translation, it was intended to show deltadawn a literary alternative, closer to the Spanish, and perhaps something her teacher might appreciate! 

Her initial translations were good and colloquial, apart from the use of 'as' rather than 'like'.


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## k-in-sc

"So that she would be (as) sweet as an apple" (with the first "as" understood/omitted) is OK. "So that she had rosy cheeks" is not OK.


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## Magnalp

"So that she would have rosy cheeks", right?


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## k-in-sc

Yes, that would be the normal way, or you could say "in order that she might have rosy cheeks" if you wanted it to sound old-fashioned, like a fairy tale.


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## Magnalp

Gracias. Siempre se aprende algo nuevo cada día.


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## Der Kaiser

k-in-sc said:


> "In order that she might be sweet" retains the subjunctive of the original, but not its tone. It's old-fashioned-sounding. The conversational way to say it would be "so she would be sweet."
> Deltadawn said her teacher didn't speak much English. That would explain the insistence on using the subjunctive. Spanish speakers tend to overuse it when speaking English, because it comes naturally to them and they don't know the constructions we use instead.
> My impression of deltadawn is that she is a bright young student who probably came to this country several years ago, functions well in English, thinks of herself as bilingual, and may not even be aware of her non-native errors. She would do well to read the rules of the forum, which are explicit about what to put for your native language(s).



Keeping in mind that this is a poem, I would use the first translation - or perhaps "so that she might be sweet". As you said, it sounds old fashioned, but then poetry usually does. The past subjunctive in my experience is the biggest source of untranslateable phrases between the languages...


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## k-in-sc

Whether it's a poem or not, the tone of the original is perfectly simple and everyday. "So that she might ... " is not.


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## Der Kaiser

k-in-sc said:


> Whether it's a poem or not, the tone of the original is perfectly simple and everyday. "So that she might ... " is not.



Well, to make it even more simple and every day I would have written it "so she'd be...", as I rarely hear people pronounce the "would" when speaking - so maybe  it's a good translation as a halfway.


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## SevenDays

Perhaps I've missed the point, or something got lost in translation....

Did the teacher mark "so that she would be sweet as an apple" wrong because it's not subjunctive? As far as I can tell, it is subjunctive in nature. More precisely, it is not "past subjunctive" but rather "future-oriented subjunctive," expressing the _possibility_ of a future in the past. Modal auxiliaries (can, would, might, etc.) do step in to express the subjunctive mood where Spanish often relies on verb inflection. "Might" is used in a subjunctive context, but it doesn't fit in this example: _would_ suggest possibility; _might_ implies a stronger sense of doubt, which runs against the wishes of the speaker. _So that she would have rosy cheeks_ is ok too, although, as a matter of style, to me, the infinitive, used to express a future-oriented possibility (and thus subjunctivity) sounds better: _she decided to call her Apple to give her cheeks a rosy complexion_ (but of course that's not a literal translation).
Cheers


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## Der Kaiser

SevenDays said:


> Perhaps I've missed the point, or something got lost in translation....
> 
> Did the teacher mark "so that she would be sweet as an apple" wrong because it's not subjunctive? As far as I can tell, it is subjunctive in nature. More precisely, it is not "past subjunctive" but rather "future-oriented subjunctive," expressing the _possibility_ of a future in the past. Modal auxiliaries (can, would, might, etc.) do step in to express the subjunctive mood where Spanish often relies on verb inflection. "Might" is used in a subjunctive context, but it doesn't fit in this example: _would_ suggest possibility; *might implies a stronger sense of doubt*, which runs against the wishes of the speaker. _So that she would have rosy cheeks_ is ok too, although, as a matter of style, to me, the infinitive, used to express a future-oriented possibility (and thus subjunctivity) sounds better: _she decided to call her Apple to give her cheeks a rosy complexion_ (but of course that's not a literal translation).
> Cheers



I think the sense of doubt is quite strong considering giving a child a name is hardly going to assure they grow up as the name suggests they will... It's at best a vague possibility.


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## deltadawn

She decided to call her Apple so that she would be sweet as an apple.
She decided to call her Apple so that she had rosy cheeks like an apple.


My translations were made with the would be form. Were right.The teach said I was using a conditional not a subjunctive. The first person did not realize that I wanted a comparison; he/she just attacked me by doubting I was a native speaker. Also "for us" or "a great help" are modern accepted speaking alternatives. He/she chose to dwell on the attack, not my question; even though the first sentence was correct and I had mentioned we do speak like that to a Mexican guy. 
My teach is French from Avignon. She adheres to books, She learned Spanish in Spain. She was checking a grammar book in French when she told me I was wrong. The Mexican guys were nice to care, but sometimes it may be difficult for them to get it. 
I borrowed the computer from a gentleman (we are house sitting). I'm African American and doing very well in school. I wonder if the Cajun gentleman should be allowed to list English as his native language. Jennifer Lopez, does. When I was in elementary, I watched her and her English was bad. Who cares! She was born here, is her perception. It was my first. By forum! Nevermore! Didn't know it was only for white natives.


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## k-in-sc

"She decided to call her Apple so that she had rosy cheeks like an apple" still isn't correct. But good luck to you.
In the forum it doesn't matter where you're from or what languages you speak, only that you represent yourself accurately.


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## deltadawn

You are right, of course, in that case. I am taking subjunctive this year, and I have observed that she sticks to her verb chart regarding the past subjuncive, went, had, etc. It's not the way it works and it cannot work with a clause like so that, either;however because it implies possibility she gets confused and  sticks to that cause she doesn't know English. The most annoying thing is that she got that idea from G Paltrow's girl, Apple. 
For your info, I have studied with many chicanos from N Mexico whose parents came to work here after Katrina. They don't speak what people accept as good English and their parents speak Spanish; yet, they consider their first language, English. I don't consider that offensive. My boss grew speaking Cajun in Mamou, but his language is English. This is not malice.You should have given your opinion without questioning the person's language. I am sure there are many chicanos and Californians here that in your eyes are not saying the truth. Sorry to tell you, but you jumped to a conclusion and continue to do so. Pretty obstinate, sir, madame. Please, stop sending e-mails because the family comes this Thursday. I don't want to abuse their kindness. I understand your point,though. You probably are retired. Thanks for giving your time to help, anyway. GP called her girl Apple because she's wacky.


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