# Copy another country's educational system?



## übermönch

Japanese students are much better educated than the american/french/german ones; they however suffer much harder from stresses and stuff like that. Finnland also does very well without torturing their students too much. So, how do you feel about it? Which way is better? Should those who failed badly at PISA reform their education systems by copying certain aspects of other countries? Which one is better - Liberal or Authoriatarian?


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## Outsider

Grrr... Our Ministry of Education has been copying the education systems of other countries for decades, but they mostly just copy the bad things.  
I guess even copying isn't a solution, when the ones who copy are too lacking in the intelligence department.


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## fenixpollo

my comments in blue:


			
				übermönch said:
			
		

> Japanese students are much better educated than the american/french/german ones;
> How do you know?
> 
> they however suffer much harder from stresses and stuff like that. Finnland also does very well without torturing their students too much.
> That sounds pretty subjective.
> 
> So, how do you feel about it? Which way is better?
> Are you asking us which educational system we prefer? Which systems are you comparing?
> 
> Should those who failed badly at PISA reform their education systems by copying certain aspects of other countries?
> What is PISA?
> 
> Which one is better - Liberal or Authoriatarian?
> In relation to education or in relation to central governments?


 : confused :


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## emma42

I am surprised that Fenixpollo finds the post so confusing! I didn't. Ho hum.

Answer: liberal liberal liberal.

One can see the effects of too much authoritarianism in education on children even in England, where most state schools are quite liberal.  Young girls, especially, can fall victim to the appalling and life-threatening illness anorexia nervosa.  This is often seen in middle class girls of above-average intelligence, who are subject to overt or covert pressure to succeed academically et al from parents.


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## fenixpollo

Emma -- thanks for the compliment?  "That's strange. Fenixpollo is usually smart; I'm surprised he didn't catch on to such a straightforward and simple question!"   

I thought that the original question was vague and had no facts to back its assumptions. Maybe it's a European debate, or maybe I'm just not familiar with Sweden's system, because I don't know the criteria for determining whether an educational system is "liberal" or "authoritarian".  I was asking moench to define the terms a bit more.


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## übermönch

fenixpollo, it's quite surprising you didn't hear about PISA. Indeed this is a hot topic in europe or atleast in european countries which didn't do very well @ PISA. PISA is an international 3-annual test among 15-yr. old students. Some thousands students are picked randomly from each participating country and have to do some tests. 
Take a look at the last results in math (2003):
http://mwhodges.home.att.net/2003-intl-math-15yr-old.gif
There were other disciplines with approximitely the same results, with Finland(which copied it's system from GDR), South Korea and Japan (except reading & foreign languages) covering the first places with France, Germany and USA hanging on the very tail alltogether.

As to liberal/authoritarian
In an authoritarian system the teacher is the boss and the pupils are just supposed to do & learn what they're said. Take 19th century or today's Japan as an example, wheras the liberal system rather resembles the one found today in most european countries & (probably, i'm not sure) USA. There the teacher is supposed to show the right way. There, for example can be class room debates and they are they are also given the freedom to interprete texts in the way they prefer.


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## emma42

I am so sorry, Fenixpollo. I didn't mean to sound rude, but I obviously did.

I was reading the question from a Eurocentric perspective. Clarification of terms and facts would help, you are quite right.


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## Brioche

emma42 said:
			
		

> I am surprised that Fenixpollo finds the post so confusing! I didn't. Ho hum.
> 
> Answer: liberal liberal liberal.
> 
> One can see the effects of too much authoritarianism in education on children even in England, where most state schools are quite liberal. Young girls, especially, can fall victim to the appalling and life-threatening illness anorexia nervosa. This is often seen in middle class girls of above-average intelligence, who are subject to overt or covert pressure to succeed academically et al from parents.


 
If authoritarianism causes anorexia nervosa, then the disease should have been of epidemic proportions in the period between the 1870 Education Act through to the gutting of the Grammar Schools!


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## emma42

See:  www.priory-hospital.co.uk/htm/anorex.htm and many other valuable sources.


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## panjabigator

I feel that both systems are affective, though I do prefer the liberal one.  But I feel that a lot of the disparities between different countries and their education systems may be due to cultural differences.  Im going to make a generalization and say that Japanese parents are stricter on their childrens' education than we are...

In India, education is put on a very very high pedastil and they do well too.


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## Etcetera

Oh my, it's by far the favourite subject in Russia. 
Several years ago, our Minister for Education offered to borrow the Western system of checking the school leavers knowledge by means of a test, which every student have to pass at the end of their final year at school. In Russia, the system is called 'Unified State Exams'. 
The point is that before USE were introduced, final exams in schools were held under the patronage of local departments for education, and after receiving their examination marks and leaving school students had to take another series of exams to enter a university, an istitute, or a college. USE is supposed to replace both school final exams and entrance exams. In fact, there were (and are!) a lot of objections, and several universities (including the Universities of St. Petersburg and Moscow) have refused to support USE, and those who want to study at these universities must take the usual entrance exams. 
As for the Russian educational system, it's said to be one the most complicated in the world, but I don't know and ain't sure if it is so.


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## asm

See this link




			
				fenixpollo said:
			
		

> my comments in blue: : confused :


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## djchak

Hmm.

I don't really know what's better..but maybe the question we should be asking is: what does the style of education really encourage? What's the goal? 

A good article that you should take a peek at: We all have a lot to learn

"A Singaporean friend recently brought his children back from America and          put them in his country's much-heralded schools. He described the difference.          "In the American school, when my son would speak up, he was applauded          and encouraged. In Singapore, he's seen as pushy and weird."

http://www.fareedzakaria.com/articles/newsweek/010906.html


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## maxiogee

emma42 said:
			
		

> One can see the effects of too much authoritarianism in education on children even in England, where most state schools are quite liberal.  Young girls, especially, can fall victim to the appalling and life-threatening illness anorexia nervosa.  This is often seen in middle class girls of above-average intelligence, who are subject to overt or covert pressure to succeed academically et al from parents.



I would have thought that other reasons for anorexia far outweigh parental academic pressure:-
—> societal expectations and standards of "ideal" bodyshape;
—> the multi-million pound slimming industry;
—> media "exposure" of female flesh;
—> early sexualisation of young women;
—> peer pressure on young women whose bodies are still forming;
… I could go on.
Check out this Mayo Clinic webpage.


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## Vanda

I'm the most authoritative source on the matter   ........................ of what shouldn't be done , being on the wrong side of the PISA. I think that since the beginning of this evaluation, my country has the privilege to rank first... if you put the list upside down!  
Now, seriously, I quote Outsider about copying the educational systems of other countries. Here  they mostly copy the bad things, too. I'm in favor of copying what works for others. Of course, some adaptations have to be done according to the places, but the essence, why not? 
Only that we stumble upon a 'little' detail: lack of will of the government. No investments. No interest. They are too busy being corrupts to think about education. On the other hand, if people have access to a better education how easy it would be to manipulate them?  So, I see no light at the end of the tunnel.


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## la reine victoria

I would like to substitute the word "discipline" for "authoritarianism". Discipline is sadly lacking in UK schools today, and from what has been discussed in other threads on education, it is not just in the UK but almost internationally.

Who would have imagined that British schools are now planning to install metal detectors at their entrances, to scan pupils for knives? Stabbings are, thankfully, rare but we have had cases of teachers and pupils being attacked by children with knives - sometimes fatally.

My grammar school had a strict code of discipline but at the same time its aim was to enable every girl to reach her full potential - academically, spiritually, creatively, socially, etc. By having this code of discipline there was mutual respect between staff and pupils alike. Each of us was treated as an individual. Teaching standards were extremely high and the brightest amongst us were keen to learn. Yes, we were streamed into three groups - the highly intelligent, the slightly less intelligent and, sad to say, the almost "no-hopers". But whether you were A, B, or C grade, you were among equals. The highly intelligent A grade was extremely competitive and the desire to learn was even keener. All three grades were taught by the same staff, who sympathetically did their very best to bring out the best in each girl. 

There will be many who will disagree with me but I rue the death of the grammar school and its traditions. We have to face up to the fact that there are varying degrees of intelligence and ability - always were, always will be. Thus there will always be successes and failures in education.

I went back to visit my old school as a young adult. I was appalled at what I saw. Scruffily dressed girls were sitting in the lower corridor, chewing bubble gum and reading comics or magazines during the lunch hour. Passing teachers were hailed as "'ello Suzy!" or "Wotcha Mags!"

In my day, weather permitting, no girl was allowed to stay indoors. Some of us used to try hiding under coats in the cloakroom but there was always a patrolling member of staff, or a prefect, to flush us out into the "fresh" air. I say "fresh" because my school was in a very poor area of London. We had a very smelly glue factory on one side and two other factories producing biscuits and jelly on the other.

I was able to meet some of my teachers. They were hanging on at this now grim establishment simply to obtain their contributed-to pensions on retirement. The stess in all their faces was very noticeable and, without exception, they all said, "Laura, why did you bother coming back to see us - can't you see the state we are in? Remember the good old days when . . . . . . ?"

That wonderful icon of respectability  (privately educated) - T. Blair has spoken of "equal opportunities for all" in education and made the daft promise that by 2010 50% of British students will obtain university degrees. Now he has turned his attention to opening new "acadamies" for the gifted. Do I detect a return to the grammar school selection system?

My sons were privately educated (on recommendation from their left-wing state-school headmaster) at what is now considered to be the country's leading independent school, Wellington College, Crowthorne, Berkshire. They earned their places there on their own merit, by sitting a scholarship entrance exam at the age of 10. This was for the preparatory school which was under the umbrella of Wellington. Our elder son, when we asked him how he'd fared, said, "Well, it was OK, but in the general knowledge exam I wasn't able to say who the editor of the Times Newspaper was!" We reassured him that neither of us knew either. At no time was he under any pressure from us - he was perceptive enough to know (at the tender age of 10) that a good education was worth obtaining. Wellington Colllege has shown willingness to support T. Blair in his "academies" proposal. See here. I'm not in the least surprised, since the new Master of Wellington is Blair's biographer, Anthony Seldon. I can see him rustling the crisp notes of the backhander which he has surely received. This college now charges 23,000 pounds a year per pupil. In our sons' day we paid 11,000 pounds for the two of them (each scholarship being worth a 50% reduction).

This is where I believe in skilled parenting. So many children nowadays are dumped in front of the television, barely spoken to - then parents (some) wonder why their child isn't doing well at school. In some homes books are absent. Children go to bed when it suits them, many have television sets in their bedroom which they are allowed to watch until all hours. Other children roam the streets at 1.00 and 2.00 in the morning, even in my tiny countryside village. What the hell are their parents (or more usually single mums) thinking of?

So, never mind copying other country's education systems. Bring back the tried and tested ways, where discipline was paramount, both in the home and at school, and maybe, just maybe, we will be able to turn our education system around. Somehow I feel it is too late.

Thank you if you have managed to read all this without yawning. Education and child psychology are two of my deepest interests. I spent a long time working (voluntarily) in the state sector, both as a classroom assistant and a remedial teacher. I am expecting my first grandchild in 9 weeks' time. Thank God my younger son, father-to-be, has told me "He or she will be brought up in the same way as you and Dad brought us up - we were so happy and we loved learning together."



Thank you for listening.


LRV


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## Etcetera

la reine victoria said:
			
		

> This is where I believe in skilled parenting. So many children nowadays are dumped in front of the television, barely spoken to - then parents (some) wonder why their child isn't doing well at school. In some homes books are absent. Children go to bed when it suits them, many have television sets in their bedroom which they are allowed to watch until all hours. Other children roam the streets at 1.00 and 2.00 in the morning, even in my tiny countryside village. What the hell are their parents (or more usually single mums) thinking of?


It's a big problem, indeed. I wish TV-sets were never introduced! It's a real nightmare. I see one of the greater disadvantages of TV in the fact that many of those whom we see on the screen don't know how to speak properly, they do a lot of mistakes in their speech, and... children repeat these mistakes!!!


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## djchak

Very intresting post Victoria.

I have mixed feelings about "discipline" though. I think it should be used as a tool WHEN NECESSARY. Otherwise "boot camp" military schools would be the only way to go, and would churn out the best in all fields.

The reason I posted the article before, was to show that creativity and persistance matter more, IMHO, than having the "best grades".


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## fenixpollo

Queenie, the kind of discipline you are talking about is not only classroom "strictness", but also self-discipline that parents are supposed to teach their children. I agree with djchak (again!?) that the deciding factor is the educational objective. If you want adults who will follow orders and be good workers, then strict discipline and a focus on the three R's (moench's "authoritarianism") is good for children. If you want adults who are problem solvers and creative thinkers, then another approach is necessary. 





			
				la reine victoria said:
			
		

> I am expecting my first grandchild in 9 weeks' time. Thank God my younger son, father-to-be, has told me "He or she will be brought up in the same way as you and Dad brought us up - we were so happy and we loved learning together."


 What a wonderful tribute to you and an incredible legacy for you to leave. 

I think there is good debate here, but I also wanted to add an awareness of history to this thread. So here are some previous threads on this topic: Your country's education system, Educational system in the Arab countries, 
Education system in Great Britain, Educational system in Britain, Comparing Education systems in France and UK,
Is USA education bad?, Addressed as Mr. and Miss by Teachers, 
How are our students fairing? selective schools, compulsory school: flunking, 
Public and Private education, public schools in private hands, 
and there are more education-related threads than that!


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## emma42

LRV, the new academies are not "for the gifted" (whatever that may mean).  They are schools which will specialise in a particular curriculum area, together with a full broader curriculum.  There is no selection based on ability.


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## maxiogee

emma42 said:
			
		

> LRV, the new academies are not "for the gifted" (whatever that may mean).  They are schools which will specialise in a particular curriculum area, together with a full broader curriculum.  There is no selection based on ability.



Emma, do you really believe that private sponsors would be prepared to put their hard-earned folding stuff into an establishment which would not be performing some sort of selection - even if that was only to be a glorified post-code style discrimination?
How many of the dreadfully nicknamed "sink estates" will have an academy anywhere within an ass's roar of them?
And surely you know what "the gifted" means - they're the ones who do exceedingly well at tests.


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## Outsider

fenixpollo said:
			
		

> Queenie, the kind of discipline you are talking about is not only classroom "strictness", but also self-discipline that parents are supposed to teach their children. I agree with djchak (again!?) that the deciding factor is the educational objective. If you want adults who will follow orders and be good workers, then strict discipline and a focus on the three R's (moench's "authoritarianism") is good for children. If you want adults who are problem solvers and creative thinkers, then another approach is necessary.


I'm not so sure that another approach is necessary. I mean, this is just my opinion, and I'm certainly not defending a return to the time of spankings in the headmaster's office (though sometimes I wonder... but nevermind )... What I don't think I agree with is that we can raise children to be good problem solvers and creative thinkers by simply doing the opposite of what we did when we wanted adults who would follow orders.


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## aragorn

Frightened reactionary students will almost always become frightened reactionary adults
Relaxed proactive students will follow a similar path

aragorn


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## djchak

For emma and max: Gifted does not necessarily mean a stright A student, at least in the USA. It's usually reserved for young people that have exceptional talents that cannot be met by regular classes. Check this website for a better definition:

http://www.nagc.org/index.aspx?id=574


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## maxiogee

fenixpollo said:
			
		

> If you want adults who will follow orders and be good workers, then strict discipline and a focus on the three R's (moench's "authoritarianism") is good for children. If you want adults who are problem solvers and creative thinkers, then another approach is necessary.



I got the three Rs.
I got the discipline - and more than my fair share of it. I was constantly in trouble with the school system - teachers, priests, other pupils, and was not a scholar.
However, 30-odd years later I sent our son to the same school - precisely because I am a problem-solver, creative and questioning. I still remember my first run-in with the priests over what was awfully close to heretical thinking. I don't know who was more surprised that I should send our there - them to see me back, or me to see the financial straits I put us into to cover the fees. I have health issues and my earning power is limited.

The Irish state education system is not a pretty sight - it's not as in as bad a way as England's (and that's why Irish people do so very well on the UKL job market - employers are often amazed at the difference between Irish school-leavers and English ones.) - and we mortgaged ourselves to the hilt and did a deal with the school - a bit under seven years' fees paid in advance for 8 years education. They sent us a fee advice each year and deducted it from the lump sum. The rate of regular inflation version the inflation in the fees meant that he got the last two years free! We lived on the proverbial schoestring while he was being educated, and looking at him now I'd do it all again if the occasion arose.

Home background and parental attitude is a major influence on whether children benefit from the educational opportunities presented to them.


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## la reine victoria

I don't know if you have any children, Emma.

When you have a son who, at the age of two, gets bored doing jigsaw puzzles by looking at the picture on the box, so turns the pieces over to plain brown and then does the puzzle - that's "gifted".

When that same son, aged 4, can identify and write down the names of 67 species of English wild flowers - that's "gifted" (all taught by his Dad on country walks).

When your second son, aged 2, asks to be walked up one side of the street to tell you what the next house's even number will be, "Oh, that was number 36 Mummy, the next one will be number 38", then back down the other side to tell you what the next odd number will be - that's gifted.

When that same child, still aged two, asks to borrow your "1000 recipe cook book" (which he can barely hold) to do private number study - that's gifted.

When your child's very socialist and anti private education headmaster sends home a letter asking if you would like your child to sit the Eton entrance exam - that's gifted.

When two brothers both win one of only two annual scholarships to a public school which is far superior to Eton - that's gifted.

When a 10 year old, with no knowledge of Latin, can be taught by me, his mother, during one short summer holiday, sufficient Latin to put him ahead of his peers at his new prep school - that's gifted.

When that same 10 year old chooses to learn Classical Greek in his first term at prep school, and comes top of the class in the exam, both in Latin and Greek - that's gifted.

Get the idea?




LRV


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## la reine victoria

*



Maxiogee
We lived on the proverbial shoestring while he was being educated, and looking at him now I'd do it all again if the occasion arose.


Click to expand...

 
** 


Good for you Tony (not forgetting Mrs Maxiogee  ). We went without a lot too, but we weren't materialistic so never missed anything. We had no need of all the latest gadgets. We had food, a roof over our heads, me, a mother who chose to stay at home to care for and educate her children and, above all else, we had love and laughter. The result - two young men to be immensely proud of.




LRV 



*


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## emma42

LRV, I am well aware of what _I _call gifted and I thank you for your definition, with which I have some disagreement.  I have worked in various forms of education for years and have a lot of experience of children.  I do feel that your tone was less than cordial on this occasion and would be grateful if you could considering amending it in the future.


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## la reine victoria

emma42 said:
			
		

> LRV, I am well aware of what _*I *_call gifted and I thank you for your definition, with which I have some disagreement. I have worked in various forms of education for years and have a lot of experience of children. I do feel that your tone was less than cordial on this occasion and would be grateful if you could considering amending it in the future.


 

Emma,

I was simply illustrating the meaning of "gifted" using my two sons as examples of children who are truly gifted. In what way was I being less than cordial? You said earlier, "gifted, whatever that might mean" so I was giving you several very good examples to help you understand the meaning of the word.

Dictionary.com defines it as 
"Endowed with great natural ability, intelligence, or talent: a gifted child; a gifted pianist." 

I have made two small corrections to your text and sent you a PM about "headmistressy style" - in keeping with the theme of education.

Please enlighten us all with your definition of "gifted". Also why you disagree with my definition.

I, too, have worked within schools, *voluntarily*. I was a classroom teaching assistant and a remedial worker. I offered my services as a way of saying thank you to the Almighty for the great blessing bestowed on us in our sons. I saw much older children in their state school who were struggling to read and write. I achieved many successes with these children and was invited to attend staff meetings and discussion groups on education. I was a teacher in all but name.

I had planned to take up teaching as a career while at school but was lured into archaeology instead. I have spent many years studying child psychology - it is one of my deepest interests.

Cordially,
LRV


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## Hakro

übermönch said:
			
		

> Finnland also does very well without torturing their students too much.


As you mentioned Finland, I feel obliged to answer. In my opinion the Finnish education system, quite liberal, seems to be good for the bright, clever and eager-to-learn kids. On the other hand, it lets the less gifted or just lazy kids stay outside of learning. It's not easy say which part of the young generation is more important. What do you think?


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## emma42

Hakro, surely you must know that every single one of them is important.  What is the point of nurturing the clever so as to build up a nation's economy and status on the world stage etc, when the less clever or lazy (but are they really less clever or lazy?  There are many explanations for academic failure or lack of progress of lack of enthusiasm), are left on the scrap heap.  What sort of a country is that to live in?  What social problems will it create?  I am not referring to Finland, here, but am making the general point.


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## la reine victoria

> Finland has often been hailed as having one of the most successful education systems. But what drives its high level of achievement? And what makes it different?


 


> In the last international education league tables, produced by the OECD, Finland's 15 year olds were judged to have the highest standards of literacy in the world.


 
Source:


Emma,

I believe Hakro gave the wrong impression in the way he worded his post.  If you read the short article I have cited you may be pleasantly surprised.  I think we could benefit in the UK by following a similar system.  It is certainly paying off in Finland.




LRV


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