# لثغة / لدغة / نُطق الراء مثل الغين



## UrduMedium

Just browsing through came across this interesting pronunciation of the "r" sound on Forvo by a user from Egypt. Listen here. 

Listen also other examples from her here. She seems consistent in her pronunciation of "r". 

I'm curious because it sounds very close to the retroflex flap R sound in Urdu/Hindi. 

is this a one-of case, or have you heard it other places also?


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## إسكندراني

عندها لدغة بسيطة


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## UrduMedium

إسكندراني said:


> عندها لدغة بسيطة


Sorry, what does this mean?


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## cherine

It's some slight speech impediment (like the lisp).


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## UrduMedium

Thanks. That explains it. Because I never heard this sound in Arabic before. 

Ironically, this user has >11,500 pronunciations on Forvo, 2nd highest tally for Arabic.


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## إسكندراني

UrduMedium said:


> Thanks. That explains it. Because I never heard this sound in Arabic before.
> 
> Ironically, this user has >11,500 pronunciations on Forvo, 2nd highest tally for Arabic.


Unfortunate for learners of (ر), which she pronounces a bit like a غ 
Usually Egyptians either roll their (ر) - like most Mediterranean languages - or only slightly roll it, like proper Arabic dictates.
But I guess it's also useful for learners to know that even dialectal sounds are not pronounced the same way by everyone. Her pronunciation is quite common actually. So if you wanted to describe the ر sound in Urdu to an Egyptian, you could say pronounce it like people with this لدغة (speech impediment).

[Is there really no nicer word than speech impediment? It's not a disease!]


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## Abu Talha

إسكندراني said:


> Unfortunate for learners of (ر), which she pronounces a bit like a غ


Wouldn't that be rather "soft" like the French "r"?

I too, like Urdu Medium, hear a very hard retroflex "r", surprisingly very close to the Urdu ڑ (which is different from our regular ر).

Sorry for the poor terminology. I'm not very familiar with the linguistic terms. 


إسكندراني said:


> Her pronunciation is quite common actually.
> ..
> [Is there really no nicer word than speech impediment? It's not a disease!]


Is it just a dialectal/regional variant then, like 'j' sound for ق in the gulf? I'm surprised because I've never heard this "r" sound before in Arabic either.


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## إسكندراني

Abu Talha said:


> Is it just a dialectal/regional variant then, like 'j' sound for ق in the gulf? I'm surprised because I've never heard this sound before in Arabic either.


No, it is just a speech impediment, like a lisp. But my perception is that it's a bit more common than a lisp.


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## Abu Talha

إسكندراني said:


> No, it is just a speech impediment, like a lisp. But my perception is that it's a bit more common than a lisp.


I see. Thanks.


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## cherine

إسكندراني said:


> So if you wanted to describe the ر sound in Urdu to an Egyptian, you could say pronounce it like people with this لدغة (speech impediment).


This is not very accurate because there are different types of لدغة : some people pronounce the ر like a غ (like this person seems to do. I haven't listened to the audio), others pronounce it like a ي , and I remember reading that some people pronounce it in a third way, almost like a mixture of ش and something else.
So, discribing it as a slight غ can be safer.


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## ayed

UrduMedium said:


> Just browsing through came across this interesting pronunciation of the "r" sound on Forvo by a user from Egypt. Listen here.
> 
> Listen also other examples from her here. She seems consistent in her pronunciation of "r".
> 
> I'm curious because it sounds very close to the retroflex flap R sound in Urdu/Hindi.
> 
> is this a one-of case, or have you heard it other places also?



This phenomenon is called (*لتغة*) *latghah*


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## إسكندراني

In Egypt we call it a لدغة, I don't know if لتغة is the proper name for it.
And cherine is right.


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## Abu Talha

I think it might be لُثْغة in FuSHa.





إسكندراني said:


> [Is there really no nicer word than speech impediment? It's not a disease!]


Perhaps "rhotacism"?


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## إسكندراني

Abu Talha said:


> Perhaps "rhotacism"?


Yes, but also no for the following reasons:
1 / Non-specialists won't know this word. I try to be a purist when it comes to English for this reason (see wikipedia's 'linguistic purism in english' article).
2 / The sound (r) in English is _miles_ away from mediterranean languages and Arabic.
3 / It still sounds like a medical condition! I consider it a feature of someone's personality, even though it is atypical and 'incorrect', but she's not swapped 'r' for 'm', she's still in the same area as 'r'!


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## ayed

Abu Talha said:


> I think it might be لُثْغة in FuSHa.Perhaps "rhotacism"?


 I often hear my randmom say لتغة and thanks for the second version, AbuTalha--of an acacia tree


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## إسكندراني

Here is another example: search (21/05/2012 هذه ثورتي) on youtube and listen to minute 2:00


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## Abu Talha

ayed said:


> I often hear my randmom say لتغة and thanks for the second version, AbuTalha--of an acacia tree


You're welcome. Any time!


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## cherine

Abu Talha said:


> I think it might be لُثْغة in FuSHa.


Yes, it is. I hesitated after changing the title to لدغة but was in hurry and didn't have the time to check the dictionary to see if لدغة is also used in fuS7a.
I'll change the title again to add the correct fuS7a word.


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## SofiaB

In Chad this pronunciation is specific to some tribes but not to others. So to those tribes it is not an impediment although even they do not use it for all words,they also use the "proper" sound.


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## Schem

I wouldn't call this لتغة in Saudi Arabia and I'm not sure we have a name for it. I'd be more likely to refer to it as a _Hindi ra_ than call it لتغة which normally refers to the inversion of a traditional ر sound to a غ sound.


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## fdb

I have listened to some of these samples. Her speech is very deliberate, don’t you think? She pronounces the final consonants very distinctly, and even realises final ة as –h. This is a reading pronunciation, not a dialect feature (I think). Her ر does not sound the least bit like غ , nor like French r, nor like Urdu ڑ . It is alveolar, perhaps slightly more retracted than usual.


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## Tracer

UrduMedium said:


> Thanks. That explains it. Because I never heard this sound in Arabic before.



I've heard this sound often....not in  normal speach situations, but in singing.  

When I first encountered Umm Kulthum's songs, I could have sworn (and still do) that occasionally,  she would pronounce the "r" like an American "r" (not British "r") like the way Americans say "RED" which is similar to but not exactly like the Hindi/Urdu retroflex "r".  However, as I said, I've never heard this sound in normal conversations.


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## UrduMedium

Schem said:


> I wouldn't call this لتغة in Saudi Arabia and I'm not sure we have a name for it. I'd be more likely to refer to it as a _Hindi ra_ than call it لتغة which normally refers to the inversion of a traditional ر sound to a غ sound.


I agree that it is not a changing of the traditional ر sound to a غ sound. It is instead a retroflex flap sound. 

In some older books it is indeed referred to as raa-i-hindi (the Hindi r). However, the sound is distinct from "r/ر" in Urdu and Hindi. In Urdu it is written as ڑ.


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