# claimed asylum



## raymondaliasapollyon

Hi,

If someone claimed asylum, did he necessarily receive it?

I'd appreciate your help.


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## Loob

No.

(In BrE the usual collocation is "seek asylum".)


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## raymondaliasapollyon

Loob said:


> No.
> 
> (In BrE the usual collocation is "seek asylum".)



By "no," do you mean "he claimed asylum" does not necessarily mean he received asylum?
Or are you just advising me to avoid using "claim asylum"?


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## Loob

By "No", I mean: *"he claimed asylum" does not necessarily mean he received asylum.*


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## raymondaliasapollyon

Thank you. I'm exploring a potential ambiguity here.

What about "He claimed a place on the team"? Did the person get the spot?

I'm asking this because a dictionary defines one sense of "claim" as "to gain, win or achieve something."


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## Andygc

raymondaliasapollyon said:


> What about "He claimed a place on the team"? Did the person get the spot?


The usual answer: "It depends on the surrounding context".


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## raymondaliasapollyon

It would be unsurprising to find confirmatory evidence that the person got a place on the team.  But I'm wondering whether that justifies listing the "to gain, win or achieve something" sense for "claim." After all, it is equally likely to find texts where "John asked for something" coexists with "John received something," but we wouldn't say one of the senses of "ask for" is "receive."


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## Loob

Well, I suppose that definition would be justified in a sentence like "He claimed *his* place on the team", which would - in most circumstances - imply (a) that the place was rightfully his and (b) that he was granted it.

Are you not going to give us your source, raymondaliasapollyon?


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## raymondaliasapollyon

claim_1 verb - Definition, pictures, pronunciation and usage notes | Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary at OxfordLearnersDictionaries.com

Do you know why the "claimed asylum" example does not have that kind of meaning?


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## Andygc

It is clear from that link that "he claimed political asylum" uses "claim" to mean "demand", and that the meaning relates only to something that "he" believes to be an entitlement or legal right. There's no implication that he has or will obtain asylum.


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## raymondaliasapollyon

In "He claimed his place on the team," how can we know he obtained the place?


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## Loob

As I said, that sentence


Loob said:


> would - in most circumstances - imply (a) that the place was rightfully his and (b) that he was granted it.


Note my highlighting.


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## heypresto

Because, as Loob said, that's what it would usually mean. Without some added information, or _context_, telling us otherwise, it's what we would understand it to mean.

Cross-posted.


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## raymondaliasapollyon

Does "He claimed his place on the team, but was rejected" sound contradictory?


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## PaulQ

raymondaliasapollyon said:


> Do you know why the "claimed asylum" example does not have that kind of meaning?


Yes.
To claim is always preparatory to the actual possession or statement.
"He claimed that he could fly." -> made the assertion that he could fly. (This is preparatory as we now await proof.)
"He claimed asylum in North Korea -> he *made a claim* that he was eligible for asylum. The application is preparatory to its being considered and rejected or accepted.
"He caught the murderer and claimed the reward." -> he applied to be given (made a claim for) the reward.

After years of hard work, he claimed *his *place on the team. This envisages there being an imaginary place that was always his, and that he finally claims it (makes a claim for it) and it is granted.


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## raymondaliasapollyon

I agree "claim" involves some sort of preparation, but my question is how we can determine whether something has been granted in each case. The Merriam-Webster has "to say that (something) belongs to you or that you deserve (something)" and "to take (something that belongs to you or that you deserve)" among the various senses of "claim."  Is it possible that "claim" means "to say you deserve something (without saying whether the thing is granted or not) in "After years of hard work, he claimed *his *place on the team"?


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## raymondaliasapollyon

If whether something is granted or not is determined by context, then it seems to suggest that the "take" sense of "claim" should not be listed, just as "receive" should not be listed as a sense of "ask for."


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## kentix

raymondaliasapollyon said:


> But I'm wondering whether that justifies listing the "to gain, win or achieve something" sense for "claim."


There is a difference between accepting something another person or group can offer you and claiming something that no one can or is offering you.

An example of the second is what happened during the "Age of Exploration". People were sailing all over the world claiming land for various kings, queens and countries. There was no one there offering it. They were gaining it by making the claim that it was theirs because they got there first.

When other people, like a team, are involved, the context is different. You can't be a member of a team unless the team invites you to be a member.


raymondaliasapollyon said:


> Does "He claimed his place on the team, but was rejected" sound contradictory?


Yes, because it wouldn't be "his" place if he wasn't awarded a place. If they offered him a place, he could claim it and join the team or refuse it.

But if they never offered him a place there is no basis to call it "his" place.

_He claimed that he deserved* a place* on the team but he was rejected._

In "he claimed political asylum", he is claiming that he fits the criteria that are used to grant political asylum. His claim [his assertion] is that he deserves to be granted that status.


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## PaulQ

kentix said:


> His claim [his assertion] is that he deserves to be granted that status.


 I think this is key to the understanding -> a claim [to something] is an assertion [of a right to something].


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## raymondaliasapollyon

Is there a principled account whereby we can determine "to claim something" involves its attainment or acquisition?

If this aspect of meaning can only be determined from context and ambiguity can arise sometimes, does that mean it should be avoided in favor of more specific alternatives?


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## Andygc

I don't understand what your difficulty is. You have provided a link to a dictionary which provides several definitions of "claim", each illustrated by a sentence. One meaning suits seeking political asylum - an assertion of a perceived right - another suits gaining a place on a football team - obtaining a place by demonstrating the required ability. In the asylum case the meaning does not include the award of asylum, in the football case the meaning usually does include the gaining of a place.

He claimed *his* place on the team. He demonstrated the required ability and was selected.

He stormed into the coach's office to claim a place on the team. "Get lost", said the coach, "You just aren't good enough".

No ambiguity, just context.


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## raymondaliasapollyon

What is it about the context that leads us to choose one meaning over the other?

I'm trying to pin it down. One of the meanings of "claim" is "to state that you have a right to take or have something that is legally yours."

"He claimed a place on the team" is also compatible with this meaning, isn't it?


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## Andygc

Since when did any sports player have a legal right to a place on a sports team?


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## PaulQ

raymondaliasapollyon said:


> "He claimed a place on the team" is also compatible with this meaning, isn't it?


This seems to be a use that has crept in from journalese: it appears to be anticipatory and indicating "his excellent play created the assumption that he would be included in the team and that he had a right to be included on the team, and he was."

In its strict meaning, as my old boss used to say "You can claim anything - whether you get it or not is a different matter."


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## raymondaliasapollyon

O


Andygc said:


> Since when did any sports player have a legal right to a place on a sports team?



If we take the definition of "legal" in Merriam-Webster's Advanced Learner's Dictionary, it'd seem to make sense:

allowed by the law or by the rules in a game

Legal - Definition for English-Language Learners from Merriam-Webster's Learner's Dictionary

Plugging the definition in post #22 "to state that you have a right to take or have something that is legally yours." into the example, couldn't "He claimed a place on the team"  be taken to mean "He stated he had a right to a place on the team"?


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## kentix

Two points:

1) In that sentence it's saying he claimed *a place *on the team but your original question was worded as he claimed *his place* on the team. Those are different situations.

2) "He claimed a place on the team" doesn't sound adequate to convey that meaning. "He claimed he deserved a place on the team." Again, it's not like claiming land by getting there first. He had to be invited, so the sentence has to cover the fact that he thinks he deserves an invitation from the people who control the team. He can't take possession of anything without their consent.


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## Andygc

raymondaliasapollyon said:


> Plugging the definition in post #22 "to state that you have a right to take or have something that is legally yours." into the example, couldn't "He claimed a place on the team" be taken to mean "He stated he had a right to a place on the team"?


You can't just plug a definition into a sentence and expect it to be correct. Yes games have laws. I have yet to see a lawbook for a game that includes "Arthur Smith has a right under these laws to have a place in the team".

You are creating ridiculous examples to flog a dead horse to death. Claiming something does not imply obtaining or achieving that thing unless the context makes it clear that it does so. "He claimed his place in the team" is a particular idiomatic usage which does mean he got into the team. But that has been said already, including by the dictionary that you quoted.


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## raymondaliasapollyon

Andygc said:


> You can't just plug a definition into a sentence and expect it to be correct. Yes games have laws. I have yet to see a lawbook for a game that includes "Arthur Smith has a right under these laws to have a place in the team".
> 
> You are creating ridiculous examples to flog a dead horse to death. Claiming something does not imply obtaining or achieving that thing unless the context makes it clear that it does so. "He claimed his place in the team" is a particular idiomatic usage which does mean he got into the team. But that has been said already, including by the dictionary that you quoted.



I have two questions:

1. When "claim" does mean "obtain" or "achieve," could it take an object other than " place" or "spot" in non-sport-related contexts?

2. If the "obtain" or "achieve" sense depends on context, is it legitimately included in the dictionary entry? A lot of meaning depends on context, but we wouldn't include it in the definition of particular words.


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## raymondaliasapollyon

And if "laws" is an issue (btw, I'm wondering whether regulations of a sports team, not just a game, can be called laws), consider Cambridge's definition, which does not involve law or "legal":

to ask for something of value because you think it belongs to you or because you think you have a right to it:

Can "He claimed a place on the team" be taken to mean "He asked for a place on the team (because he thought he had a right to it"? If not, why not?

I'm looking for some rules to determine when each sense of "claim" is licensed.


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## PaulQ

raymondaliasapollyon said:


> Can "He claimed a place on the team" be taken to mean "He asked for a place on the team (because he thought he had a right to it"?


Yes. That is the standard meaning.

He claimed a place on the team -> He made a claim to/for a place on the team.

If it is to mean "He *took *his place in/on the team", then that is what you should say.

However, as I mentioned above, journalism and literary style have caused the context *to imply* that the past tense*, plus context,* of *to claim *means to claim _successfully_, i.e. to take or receive: "In 1954, although he was only 19 years old, he claimed a place in the Olympic team and became the youngest athlete to win a gold medal."

However, that meaning is not there in the definition of "to claim" but the clause, "became the youngest athlete to win a gold medal",  confirms that his claim was successful.


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## Andygc

PaulQ said:


> However, that meaning is not there in the definition of "to claim"


Unfortunately you are not only contradicting several posts in this thread, you are also contradicting the Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary entry for "claim", linked way back in post 9, which does include that meaning.


> gain/win
> [transitive] *claim something*
> to gain, win or achieve something
> _She has finally claimed a place on the team_.


That is not a journalistic implication, it is a current meaning.


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## PaulQ

PaulQ said:


> This [the actual possession] seems to be a use that has crept in from journalese:





Andygc said:


> Unfortunately you are not only contradicting several posts in this thread, you are also contradicting the Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary


I am content that the OED agrees with me:

1.a. _transitive_. To demand as one's own or one's due; to seek or ask for on the ground of right.​b. with _infinitive_ phr. or _subordinate clause_.​c. To make a claim for (indemnity), esp. upon an insurance company. Also _absol._​​2.a. To assert and demand recognition of (an alleged right, title, possession, attribute, acquirement, or the like); to assert as one's own, to affirm one's possession of. Sense 1   claims the delivery of a thing, sense 2   the admission of an allegation.​b. with _infinitive_ phr., _obj. compl._, or _subordinate clause_.​c. ‘Often loosely used (_esp._ in U.S.) for: Contend, maintain, assert’. (F. Hall.)​​3. Of things: To call for, demand, or require; to be entitled to, deserve, have a right to.​​8.a. _intransitive_. To put forward a claim, assert a right. †to claim of (quot. 1303), to: to claim, assert a right to. †to claim for (quot. _c_1400): to claim to be, assert one's right as being. (In later times apparently an absolute use of 1 or 2.)​b. To occupy land in virtue of a claim.​
I think you may have misunderstood the following:


PaulQ said:


> However, as I mentioned above, journalism and literary style have caused the context *to imply* that the past tense*, plus context,* of *to claim *means to claim _successfully_, i.e. to take or receive: "In 1954, although he was only 19 years old, he claimed a place in the Olympic team and became the youngest athlete to win a gold medal."


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## raymondaliasapollyon

The Macmillan Dictionary has the following definition:

[TRANSITIVE] MAINLY JOURNALISM to win something such as a prize or a top position in sport
1976 was also the year Borg claimed his first Wimbledon title.

claim (verb) definition and synonyms | Macmillan Dictionary


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## Andygc

I didn't misunderstand at all. You are, of course, free to rely on a dictionary entry last revised in 1989, while others reading this thread might accept a definition from a dictionary that has been revised much more recently.

I don't see how it helps raymondaliasappolyon to tell him that his reputable learner's dictionary is wrong. Perhaps you do. But I've made my point and have nothing more to say.

Cross-posted. Definitions from two dictionaries that have been revised much more recently. (mainly journalism, not only journalism, and not an implication to be seen)


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## PaulQ

raymondaliasapollyon said:


> The Macmillan Dictionary has the following definition:
> 
> [TRANSITIVE] MAINLY JOURNALISM to win something such as a prize or a top position in sport
> 1976 was also the year Borg claimed his first Wimbledon title.


Thank you.


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## raymondaliasapollyon

Still, I am not sure if Macmillan's definition is accurate enough. Maybe the "top position" part is too narrow?
Could we say someone "claimed second place" in a game? And for "he claimed a place on the team," it doesn't seem to matter whether a top position is involved or not.


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## PaulQ

raymondaliasapollyon said:


> Could we say someone "claimed second place" in a game?


I would not _say _it - but I would not be surprised to see it in a newspaper. You will read such things as "But he only manage to claim third place."





> And for "he claimed a place on the team," it doesn't seem to matter whether a top position is involved or not.


It doesn't.


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## raymondaliasapollyon

Andygc said:


> I don't see how it helps raymondaliasappolyon to tell him that his reputable learner's dictionary is wrong. Perhaps you do. But I've made my point and have nothing more to say.



Maybe Oxford is revered by many as "reputable," but I don't think it represents the ultimate truth, for it has its own share of problems. For example, among its various senses of "claim," not even one fits the common expression "claim one's baggage."


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## tunaafi

raymondaliasapollyon said:


> Maybe Oxford is revered by many as "reputable," but I don't think it represents the ultimate truth, for it has its own share of problems. For example, among its various senses of "claim," not even one fits the common expression "claim one's baggage."


1.2 with object:  Formally request or demand; say that one owns or has earned (something)

_‘if no one claims the items, they will become government property’_

Claim | Definition of Claim by Lexico

That seems to cover it.


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## raymondaliasapollyon

tunaafi said:


> 1.2 with object:  Formally request or demand; say that one owns or has earned (something)
> 
> _‘if no one claims the items, they will become government property’_
> 
> Claim | Definition of Claim by Lexico
> 
> That seems to cover it.



I'm referring to Oxford Advanced *Learner's *Dictionary.  But the definition you cited doesn't cover it, because people who claim their baggage at the airport don't have to really *say *they own their baggage.


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## tunaafi

If a dictionary gave every tiny shade of meaning that every word could possibly have, it would be unusably large. Compilers of dictionaries generally assume that most users have a little bit of common sense.


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## raymondaliasapollyon

tunaafi said:


> If a dictionary gave every tiny shade of meaning that every word could possibly have, it would be unusably large. Compilers of dictionaries generally assume that most users have a little bit of common sense.



That's not rigorous lexicography. Consider Merriam-Webster Advanced Learner's Dictionary, which fares better than Oxford in this respect:

to take (something that belongs to you or that you deserve) 

She claimed her baggage and left the airport.


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## raymondaliasapollyon

American Heritage also performs better:

To demand, ask for, or* take as one's own* or one's due: 

_claim a reward; claim one's luggage at the airport carousel._


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## tunaafi

raymondaliasapollyon said:


> Consider Merriam-Webster Advanced Learner's Dictionary, which fares better than Oxford in this respect:
> 
> to take (something that belongs to you or that you deserve)
> 
> She claimed her baggage and left the airport.


Fine.

On that particular use of the verb 'claim'. M-W comes out better than Oxford. 

I imagine that if we checked out all of the  60,000 words, 79,000 phrases, 89,000 meanings and 109,000 examples on Oxford, some of them would suit your needs better than M-W.


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## raymondaliasapollyon

tunaafi said:


> Fine.
> 
> On that particular use of the verb 'claim'. M-W comes out better than Oxford.
> 
> I imagine that if we checked out all of the  60,000 words, 79,000 phrases, 89,000 meanings and 109,000 examples on Oxford, some of them would suit your needs better than M-W.



Right. So I consult at least four dictionaries when I take interest in a word.


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## tunaafi

That's a very good idea. I used to buy new editions of the OALD and the Concise Oxford every time they were published. With access to so many online dictionaries these days, I no longer bother.


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