# All Indo-Iranian Languages: chaa'e vaa'e (echo words)



## Qureshpor

Friends, just a light hearted topic. An Urdu and I presume a Hindi speaker would say "chaa'e vaa'e piyo ge?". In Punjabi it is normally "chaa shaa", "roTii-shoTii" etc. Is this how it is Urdu and Hindi? Are there other ways of expressing this kind of construction?


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## nizamuddin

*چائے وائے* میں* ’’وائے‘‘* اضافی لفظ ہے اس کے کچھ معنی نہیں ہیں۔ کچھ اضافی الفاظ ایسے ہوتے ہیں جن کے معنی کچھ بھی نہیں ہوتے جو کہ کسی بھی جملے یا لفظ پر زور دینے کے لئے بولے جاتے ہیں اور *’’وغیرہ‘‘* کے معنی میں آتے ہیں۔ جیسے *’’ٹوپی شوپی‘‘ ، جوتا ووتا‘‘ ، عینک شینک‘‘ ہاتھ شاتھ‘‘* ۔ یعنی کسی بھی لفظ کے پہلے حرف کی جگہ شین یا واؤ لگادینے سے وغیرہ کے معنی میں آجاتا ہے۔


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## Qureshpor

^ Thank you. Is "chaa'e shaa'e" (I mean these made-up words with a shiin) used in "proper" Urdu? I thought the "shiin" version was just Punjabi.


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## Tumbistyle

For tea (chaa), in punjabi you also get to hear

*chaa chuu* peeni aa


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## mundiya

Echo words in Hindi and Urdu are generally with v, and in Punjabi are generally with sh, but that is not always the case.  If an Urdu or Hindi word begins with v, then the echo word can be with an sh.


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## Gope

I have often heard Panjabis in Delhi say : chaae vaae, and  gap shap too.


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## littlepond

"chaae vaae" is much more common in Hindi, but I've also heard "chaae shaae" and "chaae faae".


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## marrish

There are some words which are echoed with m and p too but I can't recall them readily. I will get back when I think about it. In the meanwhile my opinion is that sh is a Punjabi thing but of course you can't draw a border. v-w is certainly Urdu. Tumbistyle mentioned consonant changes and they are there of course! Oh, I know one for p: laTram paTram.


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## eskandar

marrish said:


> There are some words which are echoed with m and p too but I can't recall them readily.


I wonder if this could be Persian influence, or perhaps just a coincidence. In Persian the echo words typically begin with [m] (this is true of Turkish too) except for words already beginning with [m] which are then reduplicated with [p] instead.

I agree that one can't quite draw a border between Hindi/Urdu and Punjabi on this issue. I have also frequently heard things like _chaae-shaae_​ in Urdu, albeit often from Punjabis.


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## king zygmunt

Does the word "chaa'e" mean "hello" or "Hi" and the following words mean "how are you?"


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## Gope

marrish said:


> There are some words which are echoed with m and p too but I can't recall them readily. I will get back when I think about it. In the meanwhile my opinion is that sh is a Punjabi thing but of course you can't draw a border. v-w is certainly Urdu. Tumbistyle mentioned consonant changes and they are there of course! Oh, I know one for p: laTram paTram.


and لشتم پشتم?


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## marrish

king zygmunt said:


> Does the word "chaa'e" mean "hello" or "Hi" and the following words mean "how are you?"


No, it doesn't. It means 'tea'.


Gope said:


> and لشتم پشتم?


Almost! لشٹم پشٹم. (_lash*T*am pash*T*am_). There is also _giT-piT_.


Annie Montaut. Reduplication and echo words in Hindi/Urdu. Singh Rajendra. Annual Review of South Asian Languages and Linguistics, Mouton de Gruyter, pp. 21-91, 2009.

https://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr/halshs-00449691/document

From p. 38 onwards the phenomenon is being dealt with. v- echo words are described as "canonical" but then this remark follows: 
"Such a phenomena (sic!) is omnipresent in all the so-called "dialects" or regional varieties of Hindi, although it often displays a consonant different from the v- used in Standard Hindi: in Panjabi and Panjabi-ized Hindi for instance sh- is used to derive F' (matlab-shatlab "signification", with some of such formations quasi lexicalized (gap-conversation- shap, "gossiping, talking'); in the Pahari (mountain) speeches, h- or ph- is used with the same function (leniin-heniin, ruus-huus, ishk-phishk 'love-etc."

So we've got extra h- and ph- but m- and p- were not taken heed of by that lady.


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## Gope

marrish said:


> No, it doesn't. It means 'tea'.
> Almost! لشٹم پشٹم. (_lash*T*am pash*T*am_). There is also _giT-piT_.


Qudratullah Shahab uses _lashtam pashtam_. And Feroz ul lughat gives both _lashtam pashtam_ and _lashTam pashTam_ in a sigle entry. Perhaps lashTam pashTam is more commonly heard?


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## marrish

^ It is probably more common, therefore it caught my attention. Now what Qudratullah Shahab used is a question to the typographers  Platts has _T_: لشٿم پشٿم लशटम पशटम laśṭam-paśṭam [prob. S. नष्टं+स्पष्टं], adv. Topsy-turvy (syn. ulṭā-pulṭā); with difficulty, with much ado; with might and main.

In this manner we got another one: _ulTaa *p*ulTaa_ 

The author of Farhang-e-Asafiyyah writes:

لَشْتَمْ پَشْتَمْ ۔ (اُ) ۔ صفت :۔ جُوں تُوں ۔ کبھی اَچھّی طرح کبھی بُری طرح بسرِ اوقات ہونا. بُری بھَلی طرح۔ بَہَر طَور ۔ بَہَر حَال ۔ جِس طَرح بَنا۔ جِس طَرح ہو سَکا۔ جَیسے مِیاں لَشْتَمْ پَشْتَمْ گُذْر ہی جائے گی (تائے ہِندی کے ساتھ بھی مُسْتَعمَل ہَے بَلکِہ عَورَتیں تو اَکثَر لَشٹَم 
(پَشٹَم ہی بولتے ہیں
​
Transliteration: _lashtam pashtam (U.) sifat:- juuN tuuN; kabhii achchhii tarH kabhii burii tarH basar-e-auqaat honaa; burii bhalii tarH; ba~har taur; ba~har Haal; jis tarH banaa; jis tarH ho sakaa, jaise "miyaaN lashtam pashtam guzar hii jaa'e gii" *(taa-e-hindii ke saath bhii musta3mal hae balkih 3aurataiN to aksar lashTam pashTam hii bolte haiN.)

*_Translation of the text in bold: "It's also used with the Indic T, moreover, women do say _lashTam pashTam_ usually".


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## Sheikh_14

Dear Foreros',

As well all know Urdu, Hindi and Persian have a tendency to add redundant words for increased effect I.e. Khaanaa shaanaa and so forth. This serves to add greatly to the flavour of ones speech and most certainly has its advantages. My question here is two-fold:

a) whether this grammatical construct has a given name? Do they have a name of any sort like say a similar sounding word is a homophone and a that which conveys a similar-meaning is a synonym etc. In other words does shaa'e in chaa'e shaa'e fall under a category of some sort.

b) What is the repetitive term used with "saaf" is it Shaaf as I suspect? For instance when someone seeks to praise another they may say you clean up quite well which Urdu-phones often express by saying "aaj tau baRii achhii taraH saaf-Shaaf ho kar aaye ho."

The second question is merely to confirm a supposition that the term word added to saaf when referring to cleanliness is Shaaf.

Best Regards,
Sheikh


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## Dib

a) These are called "echo words".


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## littlepond

Never heard of "shaaf" in Hindi: that might very well be Punjabi influence on Urdu.


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## Dib

Indeed. Most Hindi speakers use echo words starting with "v-". "sh-" is common mostly in the Western extremity of the Hindi range.

For "saaf", the usual accompaniment is "suthraa" - not really an echo word though.


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## littlepond

Dib said:


> For "saaf", the usual accompaniment is "suthraa" - not really an echo word though.



True; since "suthraa", though not really an echo word but performing a function very much akin, already exists, "saaf" doesn't need (another) echo word in Hindi.


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## Dib

I'd say, in Hindi the normal expected echo word "vaaf" is also possible, when the context demands, e.g.

"mujhe ye bartan saaf-vaaf karnaa nahiiN aataa hai! us-kaa tum samjho!"

Apart from this, is "saaf-suuf" a possibility?


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## eskandar

Dib said:


> Indeed. Most Hindi speakers use echo words starting with "v-". "sh-" is common mostly in the Western extremity of the Hindi range.


Aren't there some exceptions to this, eg. _gap-shap_?

Also, what's the default consonant used if the Hindi/Urdu word to be echoed already begins with 'v'? And for Punjabi (and Western Hindi), what's used if the word begins with 'sh'?


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## Alfaaz

eskandar said:
			
		

> Aren't there some exceptions to this, eg. _gap-shap_?



It seemed to be concluded that while the _shiin_ versions might be more common in Punjabi, they are not necessarily limited to that language...!?



			
				Dib said:
			
		

> Apart from this, is "saaf-suuf" a possibility?


 Yes, this is sometimes used.


			
				Sheikh_14 said:
			
		

> b) What is the repetitive term used with "saaf" is it Shaaf as I suspect? ...


The following compounds, though not based on echo words, are often made with _Saaf_:

صاف ستھرا - to emphasize _cleanliness_, as mentioned by Dib (post #4)
صاف شفّاف - to emphasize _cleanliness, purity, transparency, etc._
صاف صاف - to emphasize _clarity, simplicity, etc._


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## littlepond

eskandar said:


> Aren't there some exceptions to this, eg. _gap-shap_?



Yes, indeed, some echo words do use "sh": it's not a rule. Though, for saaf, "vaaf" and "suuf" are more common in Hindi, as said by others.



eskandar said:


> Also, what's the default consonant used if the Hindi/Urdu word to be echoed already begins with 'v'



'b' or 'sh'.


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## eskandar

Thanks Alfaaz SaaHib for pointing out the older thread; I've merged the two threads since they're covering the same subject. And thank you, littlepond jii, for your answer.


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## amiramir

As stated above quite clearly, echo words in Hindi generally start with v. 

It prompts the question though-- what happens if the word to be reduplicated starts with a v to begin with? In my experience, then the reduplicated word starts just drops the initial v (at least if followed by an a or aa). So for example vaayu becomes vaayu-aayu. I don't know if this a rule across the board, but it's what I have observed (perhaps incorrectly).


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## littlepond

amiramir said:


> It prompts the question though-- what happens if the word to be reduplicated starts with a v to begin with? In my experience, then the reduplicated word starts just drops the initial v (at least if followed by an a or aa). So for example vaayu becomes vaayu-aayu. I don't know if this a rule across the board, but it's what I have observed (perhaps incorrectly).



That's what eskandar jii asked in post 21, and I answered in post 23. "vaayu-aayu" would surprise me: bringing together of ending "u" of vaayu and beginning "a" of aayu would need energy to speak (the same principle of avoiding to expend energy that exists in French, for example, in the concept of liaision). I would say "vaayu-baayu".


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## amiramir

Thank you. Sorry I missed the earlier explanation.




littlepond said:


> That's what eskandar jii asked in post 21, and I answered in post 23. "vaayu-aayu" would surprise me: bringing together of ending "u" of vaayu and beginning "a" of aayu would need energy to speak (the same principle of avoiding to expend energy that exists in French, for example, in the concept of liaision). I would say "vaayu-baayu".


you


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## PersoLatin

I'm surprised there hasn't been a reply for Persian which qualifies to be in this thread.

The same thing exists in Persian, and as far as I know, there's no exception to the following format:
1 Regardless of starting letter of the first word, the second word always starts with an 'm', examples:
     namak (salt), *m*amak, sandali (chair) *m*andali, zamin (ground/earth) *m*amin, kuzé (clay bottle) *m*uzé, puzé (snout) *m*uzé, ruzé (fasting) *m*uzé, áb (water) *m*áb, anár (pomeganate) *m*anár, ojáq (stove) *m*ojáq

2 Except for when the first word starts with an 'm', in that case the second starts with a 'p', examples:
     mivé (fruit) *p*ivé, magas (fly) *p*agas, muzé (museum) *p*uzé, miz (table) *p*iz


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## farasso0

PersoLatin said:


> I'm surprised there hasn't been a reply for Persian which qualifies to be in this thread.
> 
> The same thing exists in Persian, and as far as I know, there's no exception to the following format:
> 1 Regardless of starting letter of the first word, the second word always starts with an 'm', examples:
> namak (salt), *m*amak, sandali (chair) *m*andali, zamin (ground/earth) *m*amin, kuzé (clay bottle) *m*uzé, puzé (snout) *m*uzé, ruzé (fasting) *m*uzé, áb (water) *m*áb, anár (pomeganate) *m*anár, ojáq (stove) *m*ojáq
> 
> 2 Except for when the first word starts with an 'm', in that case the second starts with a 'p', examples:
> mivé (fruit) *p*ivé, magas (fly) *p*agas, muzé (museum) *p*uzé, miz (table) *p*iz


  خنزر پنزر
خرت  و پرت


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## PersoLatin

farasso0 said:


> خرت و پرت


Not the same thing


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## Dib

PersoLatin said:


> I'm surprised there hasn't been a reply for Persian which qualifies to be in this thread.



There is a reason for that. 
The thread originally addressed only Hindi, Urdu and Punjabi. Some moderator has widened the scope very recently.

------

*Bengali:*

Bengali uses T- (retroflex t), m-, and ph-. My feeling is that each of these versions is progressively more pejorative than the former. However, none of them is acceptable in situations demanding respectful behaviour (e.g. talking to the Indian president , who happens to be a Bengali presently). So, cha-Ta is fairly neutral, cha-ma a bit more pejorative, and cha-pha positively pejorative - each of them means "tea and such things". Collision of the first letter with one of the echo letters in not a problem in Bengali. You just use one of the other two available versions.


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## farasso0

> cha-ma a bit more pejorative, - each of them means "tea and such things


We also use chai(tea)-mai


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## PersoLatin

Dib said:


> There is a reason for that.
> The thread originally addressed only Hindi, Urdu and Punjabi. *Some *moderator has widened the scope very recently.


Thanks Dib, maybe the moderator should inform everyone on this forum, by adding a new thread with an appropriate title.



Dib said:


> Bengali uses T- (retroflex t), m-, and ph-. My feeling is that each of these versions is progressively more pejorative than the former. However, none of them is acceptable in situations demanding respectful behaviour (e.g. talking to the Indian president , who happens to be a Bengali presently). So, cha-Ta is fairly neutral, cha-ma a bit more pejorative, and cha-pha positively pejorative - each of them means "tea and such things". Collision of the first letter with one of the echo letters in not a problem in Bengali. You just use one of the other two available versions.


The Persian version is mainly in colloquial & sometimes informal speech, and means the same i.e. "x & such things", it doesn't have a pejorative version.


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## PersoLatin

farasso0 said:


> خنزر پنزر


Maybe "cheap tat", "bits & bobs", "odds and ends" even "odds & sods"


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## cherine

PersoLatin said:


> maybe the moderator should inform everyone on this forum, by adding a new thread with an appropriate title.


The thread was originally about Urdu, Hindi and Punjabi. After the merge with the newer discussion that included Persian, I thought it's more appropriate to change the thread title accordingly. Sorry for not leaving a mod note about this.


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## colognial

We have آرا ویرا in Persian. Generally, ladies do the آراویرا, i.e. they undergo preparations, dress up, put on make up to go with a fancy hairdo, and wear jewelry.

There's also صاف و صوف, again with the second word (تابع) having a meaning of its own while contributing to the overall meaning. The 'and' in between the two words is obligatory.

Other examples with the 'and' are: , آسمون و ریسمون, گاه و بی گاه, کژومژ, تار و مار, در و بی در , شور و شر.

I wonder if these are all the same in construction and whether all of them count as 'echoes'. 

And then there are the examples out of Hafez:
گر موج خیز حادثه سر بر فلک زند
عارف به آب تر نکند رخت و پخت خویش

در سرای مغان رفته بود و آب زده
نشسته پیر و صلایی به شیخ و شاب زده


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## PersoLatin

cherine said:


> The thread was originally about Urdu, Hindi and Punjabi. After the merge with the newer discussion that included Persian, I thought it's more appropriate to change the thread title accordingly. Sorry for not leaving a mod note about this.


Thanks for the reply.


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## Sheikh_14

Dib, I have indeed heard saaf-suuf and also saaf-Shaaf (which may well be a punjabisation). My query for Urdu phones is in a similar vein to where QP started off which is that are echo forms which use shiin I.e. Chaa'e shaa'e, khaanaa shaanaa Urdabi constructs or do Urdu-speakers opt for the same as well? Hindi phones have made it abundantly clear that there echo words usually begin with W and not Sh. I mostly hear kitaab-shitaab, would the standard Urdu variant be kitaab-witaab which I suppose is also used in Persian. In any case there isn't really a real standard form of echo terms and they usually differ with one's dialect, style of speech and fancy.

For saaf btw I have never come across waaf in Urdu, it may be more common across the border.


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## eskandar

Sheikh_14 said:


> kitaab-witaab which I suppose is also used in Persian.


No, it would be _kitaab-mitaab_ in Persian. See post #28.


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## marrish

littlepond said:


> Never heard of "shaaf" in Hindi: that might very well be Punjabi influence on Urdu.


I agree, this might be Punjabi influence on Urdu or an example of a Punjabi speaking bad Urdu, rather the latter because I don't recall Urdu speakers doing this.
_*saaf waaf*_ I have even heard as recently as a couple of days ago in a conversation, this is how the echo-forming will usually take place in Urdu. This is, by no means a blanket rule for all nouns or adjectives or adverbs in this language.


marrish said:


> There are some words which are echoed with m and p too but I can't recall them readily. I will get back when I think about it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> eskandar said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if this could be Persian influence, or perhaps just a coincidence. In Persian the echo words typically begin with [m] (this is true of Turkish too) except for words already beginning with [m] which are then reduplicated with [p] instead.
Click to expand...

Now that this thread has been discussed again I read that promise of mine to "return" to this subject, so I can't do than make up to that promise. At least by an answer with meaningful examples:

More examples for /any initial vowel/ -echo- *p*-
luuT *p*uuT (but also luuT *p*aaT)
taRaaq *p*aRaaq
Ghach *p*ach

More examples for /any initial vowel/ -echo- *m*-
chihrah-*m*uhraa
sach *m*uch
jhuuT *m*uuT
auj *m*auj (anti-echo)
xalat-*m*alat
gaD *m*aD

I think there are echo-words in Urdu beginning with any sound!
milaa-*j*ulaa, shor *b*or, chamak *d*amak, naam *Th*aam, ruqq3ah *sh*uqqah, raNg *ch*aNg, tahas *n*ahas, turat *ph*urat, pakaR *dh*akaR, chaal *Dh*aal, *aa*ltii *p*aaltii...... 

There are many that start in *s*-, too.


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## littlepond

marrish said:


> *aa*ltii *p*aaltii......



Lovely list; most of those very much existing in Hindi too. There is also "*aa*ltii *maa*ltii" (which is used in my milieu instead of "aaltii paaltii").


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## Alfaaz

marrish said:
			
		

> xalat-*m*alat


 Correction: خلط ملط → _xalt-malt_


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## Sheikh_14

Thank you for the exhaustive list, Marrish SaaHib. So would you contend that that using echo words with an sh would be engaging in speaking bad Urdu? That would in fact be quite a contentious comment to make for a) it contradicts your comment on post 8 which clearly contends that you can't really draw a line between Punjabi and Urdu constructs since they are growingly inter-related; and b) it pigeon holes Punjabi Urdu-phones as being collectively in the wrong when in fact they have most alactriously adopted the language and thus they are bound to bring constructs of their own into any language they whole-heartedly espouse. Perhaps, I have a mistaken impression of your previous post but it does appear that you are labelling chaa'e shaa'e as opposed to chaa'e waa'e and khaanaa shaanaa as opposed to khaanaa waanaa as "bad Urdu." You could refer to it as a Punjabism but I am not sure if something so a) widely accepted and b) that doesn't really violate any Urdu principles can at all be perceived as anything but a dialectal variant as you would find in various strands of English. Ahl e zabaan folk that live in Punjab are just as susceptible to them and I doubt any would raise eyebrows in this particular case. 

Nevertheless, a few questions pertaining to this matter remain unanswered a) what would you call echo words and this practise in the relevant native languages as per the thread and b) is their protocol involved with its usage? In essence what I mean by the latter is as follows, you will quite often hear Punjabi Urdu-phones use terms such as Halaal Shalaal and Haraam Sharaam whereas perhaps Urdu-phones too would do the same but in their own distinct style i.e. Halaal walaal and Haraam-Waraam (I have heard the latter but never the former); but would Urdu and Punjabi phones view the usage of echo terms as disrespectful in this case or find it to be completely normal? In other words with everyday scripture terms do Perso, Punjabi and Urdu-phones still adopt echo words or would they rather refrain as in the example above i.e. in relation to Halaal and Haraam?


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## rarabara

Qureshpor said:


> Friends, just a light hearted topic. An Urdu and I presume a Hindi speaker would say "chaa'e vaa'e piyo ge?". In Punjabi it is normally "chaa shaa", "roTii-shoTii" etc. Is this how it is Urdu and Hindi? Are there other ways of expressing this kind of construction?


Greetings ,

could you provide the meaning in the original language you provide,

in Kurdish (I write it because I saw all iir etiquette)
this means "eyes" but to me it should not be alone. (Some other words or particles needed)


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## MonsieurGonzalito

In a paper I am reading on the subject of echo word formation in Hindi/Urdu, it says (pag.39)


> "When the vowel in the first syllable is rounded, the initial consonant disappears: ghoRâ ‘horse’ ghoRâ-oRâ, ‘horse etc.’."



It seems to be true that ghoRaa-oRaa exists, as I find many examples on the Internet.

But what do they mean by a "rounded" vowel? The "o color", i.e. _o_ or _au_?  Are there other examples of this pattern?


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## littlepond

MonsieurGonzalito said:


> In a paper I am reading on the subject of echo word formation in Hindi/Urdu, it says (pag.39)
> 
> 
> It seems to be true that ghoRaa-oRaa exists, as I find many examples on the Internet.



I don't think any "ghoRaa-oRaa" exists, not at least for the majority of speakers. The usual would be "ghoRaa-voRaa."


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## aevynn

MonsieurGonzalito said:


> what do they mean by a "rounded" vowel?


See Wikipedia on "vowel roundedness." The UH rounded vowels are o, au, u, and uu.


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> There are some words which are echoed with m and p too but I can't recall them readily. I will get back when I think about it. In the meanwhile my opinion is that *sh* is a Punjabi thing but of course you can't draw a border. v-w is certainly Urdu. Tumbistyle mentioned consonant changes and they are there of course! Oh, I know one for p: laTram paTram.


That's what I thought, marrish SaaHib. But just reading one of the most renowned Urdu short-story and novel writers, namely Prem Chand, I came across the following sentence.

"meraa daaN'o de kar jaa'o. amruud-*s*amruud maiN nahiiN jaantaa."


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