# 厳しさを知る黒猫だった



## YangMuye

I don't know how to understand the 知る in these two sentences.
1. From here, the last picture: 世間の厳しさを知る黒猫だった。
2. From 小学館漢和辞典：自分の能力の限界を知る
Why don't we use 知った・知っている?

よろしくお願いします。


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## Strutter

YangMuye said:


> I don't know how to understand the 知る in these two sentences.
> 1. From here, the last picture: 世間の厳しさを知る黒猫だった。
> 2. From 小学館漢和辞典：自分の能力の限界を知る
> Why don't we use 知った・知っている?
> 
> よろしくお願いします。


 
It seems to be a difficult and subtle question. So this is one possibly translation.

1.世間の厳しさを知る黒猫だった。
(There was) A cat who just knew the world is not so easy to live in.(personified)

and if

世間の厳しさを*知っている*黒猫だった。
(There was) A cat who already knows the world is not so easy to live in.

世間の厳しさを*知った*黒猫だった。
(There was) A cat who just recognized the world is not so easy to live in.

2.自分の能力の限界を知る
I just recognized what I could do and couldn't.

and if

自分の能力の限界を*知っている*。
I already know what I could do and couldn't.

自分の能力の限界を*知った*。
I recognized what I could do and couldn't.

In addition, 自分の能力の限界を知る*人*
A man who knows what he could do and couldn't.



> Why don't we use 知った・知っている?


 
My answer is "According to the situation"

Thanks.


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## Flaminius

YangMuye said:


> I don't know how to understand the 知る in these two sentences.
> 1. From here, the last picture: 世間の厳しさを知る黒猫だった。


The scrawny black cat comes to know the world is a tough place after a few slaps by the big grumpy cat.



> 2. From 小学館漢和辞典：自分の能力の限界を知る


This must be the definition of an entry or a subentry in the dictionary.  I would be 100% sure about my judgement if the entry/subentry had been provided as part of the context and background information (Forum Rule #3).  Still I am fairly sure that it is the definition for a word that means "come to know one's limits."

The answer to your question is now clear:
Why don't we use 知った・知っている?  Because that choice would make the verb stative while the sentences need an action verb.


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## YangMuye

Strutter san and Flaminius san, thank both of you.

About the second sentence, I double checked my dictionary.  There are two versions of this book. In the 2nd version, There are only 3 examples using しる. The sentences after "/" are Chinese translations.


> 知る
> (2)〔認識･理解する〕清楚,了解
> ▲ 自分の能力の限界を～/清楚自己能力的大小.
> ▲ 子を持って～親の恩/養儿方知父母恩.
> ▲ 敵を知り,己を知れば百戦危うからず/知己知彼,百戰不殆.


I can understand the 知る in "子を持って*知る*親の恩".
In 敵を*知り*,己を知れば百戦危うからず, the 知り is neutral.
As for "自分の能力の限界を知る", according to the Chinese translation, it means 自分の能力の限界が分かっている

In another version of this dictionary, there are more examples using 知る(I just copy 4 lines.):


> 2((理解する))懂得;[経緯を経て]理解;[よしあしなどを]识别.
> 健康のありがたみを～/懂得健康的宝贵;        ～人ぞ～/只有真正懂得的人才知道.
> 3((知りあう))[はじめて]认识;[親しく]熟识.
> どうしてあの人を～ようになったのですか/(你)怎么认识他的？



However, I have also noticed that, some of these examples are not completed sentences although there is a 'period' mark. So the first sentence may be uncompleted.


Flaminius san,
The author chose 知る because at that time the cat had not finished the process of 知る yet?
Is there a -ing form for 知る?


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## almostfreebird

1.世間の厳しさを知る黒猫だった。

In my opinion, this "知る" means to find out through experience.

The black cat finds out harsh side of life(by experiencing the bitterness of life).


Reference:
*５* 経験する。体験して身につける。「酒の味を―・る」「世の中の苦労を―・らない」
http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/dsearch?enc=UTF-8&p=知る&stype=0&dtype=0


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## almostfreebird

quote: Is there a -ing form for 知る? uquote


This page explains pretty good the differences between ている and た:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...」+is+just+a+regular+action&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk

Excerpt:

English is weird in that "know" is supposed to be a verb but is actually describing a state of having knowledge. Japanese is more consistent and 「知る」 is just a regular action verb. In other words, I "knowed" (action) something and so now I know it (state). That's why the English word "to know" is really a continuing state in Japanese, namely: 「知っている」.


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## Flaminius

Oh, this 漢和辞典 is a 中日辞典.    I thought you were quoting from a kanji dictionary where the sentence is part of the definition of an entry such as 知命.


YangMuye said:


> As for "自分の能力の限界を知る", according to the Chinese translation, it means 自分の能力の限界が分かっている


Anyway, if 清楚 is a stative verb, the Chinese translation is wrong.  知る is always an action verb.



> However, I have also noticed that, some of these examples are not complete sentences although there is a 'period' mark. So the first sentence may be uncompleted.


The examples are full sentences, all but 知る人ぞ知る.  This is an adnominal phrase meaning "known to a select number of people."



> The author chose 知る because at that time the cat had not finished the process of 知る yet?
> Is there a -ing form for 知る?


The non-past form 知る is a result of ellipsis.  One could write 知った猫だった but the past marker in the main clause obviates the one in the subordinate clause.

Forgive my penchant for abstraction but there is a typical device for dramatising here.
[Relat. (N) ____] Nだった。
The bracketed clause is a relative clause whose implicit subject is N, which is also the subject of the main clause ending with だった.  This construction is used before the plot of a story comes to a hiatus — before a change of scenes or at the end of the story — in order to conclude the scene with an image of N, which is typically the main character, doing or experiencing something.  Since an image is a static thing, the audience is expected to wait for a new development in the story with the character "petrified" at a dramatic moment (if the story ends there, they are free to be with the character as long / little as they want).

Needless to say, I could have pointed at the last frame of the manga and note it has the least motion among the frames.


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## Flaminius

Flaminius said:


> 知る is always an action verb.


At the risk of opening a can of worms, here is a discussion about exceptions to the above.

First, consider this:


Strutter said:


> In addition, 自分の能力の限界を知る*人*
> A man who knows what he could do and couldn't.


限界を知っている人 is fine too but note that the stative sense can be captured by 知る in a subordinate clause (or at least in an adnominal/relative clause).  In fact, _-teiru_ as the sign of imperfective aspect is a modern thing.  Many historical expressions still keep 知る in the older tense/aspect system.  Some of them are apparently quotes from the classical literature:
士は己を知る者のために死ぬ (translation of 士爲知己者死)。
Here, 知っている者のため is impossible because it is a set expression.

Others can use both 知る and 知っている in the adnominal clause but the former sounds far suitable:
恥を知る人
Not being a quote, it could theoretically use 知っている but I rarely see that.  It would somehow deprive the expression of the solemn, age-old sentiment.  Could it be "keeping old wine in old wineskins"?


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## Strutter

Let me write in Japanese.

~る、～ているの違いについてです。この違いを英語で説明できる気がしないので、日本語で書きます。


それを知っているのは僕だけだ。の方が、それを知るのは僕だけだ。より（僕には）しっくりきます

同様に、（左の方がしっくりくるという意味です）
その情報を知るのは彼だけであった。　その情報を知っているのは彼だけであった。
テストの点数を知っているのは先生だけだった。　テストの点数を知るのは先生だけだった。

以上の例では、どちらの文も意味はほぼ同じで、結局はリズムしだいなのかなぁという気もしますが、例えば

父が死んだことを知ったのは、ついこの前だった。　父が死んだことを知っていたのは、ついこの前だった。　

のような文だと、右側はなんだかおかしいですよね。

また、

テストの点数を知ったのは先生だけだった。　テストの点数を知っていたのは先生だけだった。

だと、どちらも、意味は通りますが、意味するところは違いますよね。（この場合では、右側の方が断然使われうる表現でしょう。）

そしてまた、”知る”にかかわらず、多くの日本語で、～る、～ているの、が非常にあいまいだと思います。

稼ぐのが君で、使うのが僕。　稼いでいるのが君で、使うのが僕。

右側のように、～ている、～るの組み合わせでも、自然だと思います。

勉強していたのが君で、遊んでいたのが僕。　勉強していたのが君で、遊んだのが僕。

だと、ん～・・・ほんとに若干、左側の方が適切な気がします。

正直、～る、～ているの組み合わせや、両者の違い等を考えていたら、色々な例が浮かびすぎて混乱してしまいました

ここら辺は、日本語を学ぶ上で、本当に難しい点だと思います。


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## YangMuye

Almostfreebird san, Flaminius san, Strutter san, thank you very much.
I did know the Japanese tense/aspect could be so complex in a adnominal clause.
I searched the internet and found this page.
It will be a long time before I could understand the posts you write and the page I found.

また質問が有ったら、よろしくお願いします。
皆さん、どうもありがとう御座いました。


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