# Subject-Verb Order...



## deadimp

I have always wondered when one should change the order of the verb and subject, and I already know of interrogatives, and some of the stuff that happens in subordinating conjunctions [though, not entirely clear on that either].
An example of what I'm trying to get at is: (This is from my German I class... Fear the simplicity)
> Im Berlin ist es 29 Grad und stark bewölkig.
Why do they reverse the verb and subject?
Whenever I ask my teacher (for other sentences and such), she states that is a form of emphasis... However, I don't know when emphasis should be used or not.

Relative side question: Would the same rules apply to Spanish (I've noticed similar occurences)? If no one can answer it here, I'll just post a similar topic in the Spanish forums.

EDIT: Found a small quote in a Rammstein song that seems to have something like this: (Amerika, Line 5)
> "Wenn getanzt wird *will ich* führen" (When there's dancing I want to lead)
Why is this reversed? Is it just for the 'effect of the song'?


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## xav

> Im Berlin ist es 29 Grad und stark bewölkig.
> Wenn getanzt wird *will ich* führen.
> Why do they reverse the verb and subject?


Just because there's a complement at the beginning of the sentence. No emphasis there.
= Es ist 29 Grad und stark bewölkig in Berlin.
   Ich will führen, wenn getanzt wird.


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## lemmego

In most cases, you are free to choose which word order to use. For example, instead of
I*n* Berlin ist es 29 Grad und stark bewölk*t*.
you could also say
Es ist 29 Grad und stark bewölkt in Berlin.

Both are correct. The reason the first version is commonly used in forecasts is probably that it makes sense here to mention the city first. So if the weatherman is going through a long list of cities and you are waiting for yours, you don't have to pay attention to all the temperatures, but only after you hear the name of your city. If he used the second version, you might have missed the temperature by the time you catch the city.

When there is no practical reason like that, then the word order is generally a question of personal preference and style.

Basically, you can pick any *one *segment of the sentence and put it in front of the verb. Whenever you do this, you have to reverse the verb and subject. You cannot place more than one segment before the verb.

In Berlin es ist heute 29 Grad. <- incorrect!
In Berlin heute ist es 29 Grad. <- incorrect!
Heute ist es in Berlin 29 Grad. <- correct!
In Berlin ist es heute 29 Grad. <- correct!

For a short summary, see here:
http://german.about.com/library/weekly/aa032700b.htm

The same rules apply to your second sentence.
Wenn getanzt wird, will ich führen.
Ich will führen, wenn getanzt wird.


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## I.C.

My recommendations:
"In Berlin sind es 29 Grad, und es ist stark bewölkt."
"In Berlin ist es stark bewölkt bei 29 Grad."
Reason for starting with "Berlin": All places have weather, so if the sentence structure does allow to start with the most important bit of information, do so. 
Particularly in speech and when giving an overview of temperatures of several locations, some people will forget the called out temperature before they realise the information is of interest to them.


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## deadimp

I'm beginning to get it... [Sorry about the mispelled 'in']
So whenever you place one (and only one) of the "Wann-Wie-Wo" elements before the verb, you need to do the reversing? (Just making sure)
Would something like this work?
> Zu Haus, esse ich. - At home, I eat (Would the comma be needed in German?)

*I.C.* << Why do you use "sind" as the verb? Is the subject there the "29 Grad"?

Danke für mir helfen. Es hat mir gut gemacht.
(Hope that was somewhat correct, or understandable at least)


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## DaleC

deadimp said:
			
		

> I'm beginning to get it... [Sorry about the mispelled 'in']
> So whenever you place one (and only one) of the "Wann-Wie-Wo" elements constituents -- Not just adverbial constituents; it could be the direct object. -- before the verb, you need to do the reversing? (Just making sure)
> Would something like this work? Yes, but without the comma.
> > Zu Haus, esse ich. - At home, I eat (Would the comma be needed in German?)


Statements which are independent sentences (stand on their own as  complete sentences) conform to an *absolute *word order rule: the tense bearing verb goes in the second position. (That's in your textbook somewhere.) There's no reason for the rule; it just is. The initial constitutent can be a word like "da" (there) or a phrase like "zu hause" in your own example. (Different word orders apply to questions and to clauses starting with one of those subordinating conjuntions.)

In English, by contrast, independent statements conform to a basic rule of *relative *word order: subject before verb. (There is likewise no reason for this rule either.) 

"will gehen" (wants to go): "will" has (bears) a tense, "gehen" does not.


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## Brioche

deadimp said:
			
		

> I have always wondered when one should change the order of the verb and subject, and I already know of interrogatives, and some of the stuff that happens in subordinating conjunctions [though, not entirely clear on that either].
> An example of what I'm trying to get at is: (This is from my German I class... Fear the simplicity)
> > Im Berlin ist es 29 Grad und stark bewölkig.
> Why do they reverse the verb and subject?
> Whenever I ask my teacher (for other sentences and such), she states that is a form of emphasis... However, I don't know when emphasis should be used or not.
> 
> Relative side question: Would the same rules apply to Spanish (I've noticed similar occurences)? If no one can answer it here, I'll just post a similar topic in the Spanish forums.
> 
> EDIT: Found a small quote in a Rammstein song that seems to have something like this: (Amerika, Line 5)
> > "Wenn getanzt wird *will ich* führen" (When there's dancing I want to lead)
> Why is this reversed? Is it just for the 'effect of the song'?


 
In English the basic rule is Subject, Verb, Object.

The basic rule of German word order is that the *main verb* is the *second idea* in a sentence. 
_*Note:* second idea, not second word._

"In Berlin ist es 29 Grad."
First idea = In Berlin
Second idea = ist [the verb]

"Es ist 29 Grad in Berlin."
First idea = Es 
Second idea = ist [the verb]

In a complex sentence, [that is, a sentence with more than one clause] the *main verb* will still be the *second idea*.

"Wenn getanzt wird, will ich führen"
First idea = Wenn getanzt wird [subordinate clause]
Second idea = will [finite verb in main clause]

This sentence could also be written:
"Ich will führen, wenn getanzt wird."
First idea = ich
Second idea = will [finite verb in main clause]

If there is a second verb or a participle in the main clause it goes to the end of the main clause.

In a subordinate clause, the finite verb goes last,
"Wenn getanzt wird" here wird is that verb, and any participles go before the finite verb, here getanzt is the past participle.

Further on in the Rammstein song is:

ich *werde* Euch die Richtung zeigen, 
nach Afrika *kommt* Santa Claus, 
und vor Paris *steht *Mickey Maus.

You can see that the *verb *is the second idea.

You could write this as
Die Richtung *werde *ich Euch zeigen, or Euch *werde *ich die Richtung zeigen,
Santa Claus *kommt *nach Afrika, 
und Mickey Maus *steht* vor Paris .

These rules do not apply to Spanish.


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## Whodunit

deadimp said:
			
		

> *I.C.* << Why do you use "sind" as the verb? Is the subject there the "29 Grad"?


 
Not really:

"es" is the subject, but in German "it" and the verb "be" do not have to agree, rather the following (or preceding) "predicate noun":

I am here. ('here' is the predicate noun/word)
He is a man. ('a man' is the predicate noun)
It is cold outside. ('cold' is the predicate noun/word and 'outside' is a local adverb)
It is the exceptions I do not like. ('the exceptions' is the predicate noun)

However, in German, we have something strange here (as in French, by the way). We can't say "Es ist die Ausnahmen, die ich nicht mag" for the last sentence, but the predicate (sein/to be) has to agree with the predicate noun which is "die Ausnahmen/the exceptions" here. Thus in German, we have to use "sind/are". 

Having said that, I'd like to point out tat I.C. was correct when she used "Es sind ... 29 Grad", because "29 Grad" are "29 degree*s*" (predicate noun), so we need to use "sind" instead of "ist". 

Hope I didn't confuse you.


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## DaleC

Having to do with explanation: 


			
				Brioche said:
			
		

> The basic rule of German word order is that the *main verb* is the *second idea* constituent in a sentence.
> _*Note:* second idea, not second word._


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## Brioche

Having to do with explanation: 


> Originally Posted by *Brioche*
> _The basic rule of German word order is that the *main verb* is the *second idea* constituent in a sentence. _
> _*Note:* second idea, not second word_.


 
According to my very first German grammar book "Das schöne Deutschland" by W.E. Anderson, published in 1956 by Harrap & Co..
_The finite verb must always be the second idea in the main clause._

The very first line in L.J. Russons "Complete German Course" published by Longmans in 1967 is:
_In a sentence consisting of one main clause the finite verb is always the second idea except: ....._

Both those books were published in Britain, so may be yet another AE/BE difference.


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## DaleC

"Idea" is a vague term (vague as opposed to flexible; it IS also flexible). Actually, it seems like it would good enough for grammar help most of the time. 

 But really, resorting to "idea" has nothing to do with AE/BE in general. It's obviously an evasion of terminology to put at their ease people who are very uncomfortable with technical grammar as well as those who are bored to death by it. "Deadimp", however, seemed to be willing and ready for a little bit more theory. 

Some people just want to use an auto to get around, and they have no interest in learning about what goes on underneath the hood. And I think it's OK to have that attitude. 

The units of word order are usually constituents. If approximating that by "ideas" helps somebody learn German, fine with me.  

 Finally, notice that your sources are old. Not that this makes them inaccurate, just old fashioned and maybe a tad less informative. I suspect there's less pessimism now about the judicious, sparing use of terminology in a grammar for a general audience. I also suspect that teachers of language themselves have more rigorous training in grammar than forty years ago. 



			
				Brioche said:
			
		

> Having to do with explanation:
> 
> 
> According to my very first German grammar book "Das schöne Deutschland" by W.E. Anderson, published in 1956 by Harrap & Co..
> _The finite verb must always be the second idea in the main clause._
> 
> The very first line in L.J. Russons "Complete German Course" published by Longmans in 1967 is:
> _In a sentence consisting of one main clause the finite verb is always the second idea except: ....._
> 
> Both those books were published in Britain, so may be yet another AE/BE difference.


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## deadimp

Whodunit said:
			
		

> Not really:
> 
> "es" is the subject, but in German "it" and the verb "be" do not have to agree, rather the following (or preceding) "predicate noun":
> 
> I am here. ('here' is the predicate noun/word)
> ...
> [Quote truncated]


 When using this rule (the verb has to agree with the predicate noun), does this apply to all "points-of-view" (1st person, 2nd person, etc), or just 3rd-singular? (NOTE: Ignore the real/interpereted meanings of the following quotes, for grammar only)
Would one say "I am two persons (people)" as either:
a) Ich bin zwei Personen (sein+ich)
b) Ich sind zwei Personen (sein+sie)
And going back to the original phrase, "In Berlin ist es...", it would still be semi-grammatically correct to say it that way, right? (I got the sentence from an excercise we did a few days ago [German I])

Y'all have been a great help. Thanks!


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## Jana337

deadimp said:
			
		

> Would one say "I am two persons (people)" as either:
> a) Ich bin zwei Personen (sein+ich)
> b) Ich sind zwei Personen (sein+sie)
> And going back to the original phrase, "In Berlin ist es...", it would still be semi-grammatically correct to say it that way, right? (I got the sentence from an excercise we did a few days ago [German I])


Bestimmt "ich bin zwei Personen".
I don't understand your question about Berlin. Which way would it be semi-grammatically correct?

Jana


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## Whodunit

deadimp said:
			
		

> When using this rule (the verb has to agree with the predicate noun), does this apply to all "points-of-view" (1st person, 2nd person, etc), or just 3rd-singular?


 
I can't imagine any sentence where I would use the 1st or 2nd person singular in plural, so I can't answer the question for sure. I'd say "Ich und du sind ein Paar" (= wir sind ein Paar) or "Du und er seid (collq: sind) nicht sehr schlau" (= ihr seid [collq: sie sind] nicht sehr schlau).



> (NOTE: Ignore the real/interpereted meanings of the following quotes, for grammar only)


 
Although it's totally hard, because I have never said the below mentioned sentences, I'm trying to answer your question:



> a) Ich bin zwei Personen (sein+ich)
> b) Ich sind zwei Personen (sein+sie)


 
"Ich sind" is total nonsense in German, except for "Du und ich sind Jugendliche (you and I are* adolescents). I wouldn't say "Ich bin + plural" either, but I think it would work. 



> And going back to the original phrase, "In Berlin ist es...", it would still be semi-grammatically correct to say it that way, right? (I got the sentence from an excercise we did a few days ago [German I])


 
I'm not sure how you interpret "semi-grammatically", but if you understand it as "actually grammatically incorrect, but colloquially used", I must agree with you. "In Berlin ist es 29 Grad" is colloquial, although I can imagine having heard some native German newscasters forecasting "In Berlin wird es morgen unter 10 Grad minus". It is, however, still grammatically incorrect.

*I guess in English you would prefer "you and I am adolsecents", that's at least the way you say it in the "neither you nor I am" expression".


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## elroy

Whodunit said:
			
		

> *I guess in English you would prefer "you and I am adolsecents", that's at least the way you say it in the "neither you nor I am" expression".


 
No, "you and I am" is also total nonsense in English. When two nouns or pronouns are joined by _and_, a plural verb is required. When they are joined by _or_ or _nor_, you go with the gender of the nearer noun or pronoun.

In fact, this is a good way to prove to Deadimp that "ich sind" is not even worth considering.  That is, the only personal pronoun* that allows both singular and plural verbs is "es" when it is used as a dummy subject (_sie _meaning "she" and _sie_ meaning "they" are two different pronouns!). 

*also its derivative _das_, a demonstrative pronoun


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## cyanista

deadimp said:
			
		

> When using this rule (the verb has to agree with the predicate noun), does this apply to all "points-of-view" (1st person, 2nd person, etc), or just 3rd-singular?


This rule applies only to sentences where the formal subject "_es/das_" is followed by the verb _sein_. This is a special case of the so-called *Gleichsetzungssatz* where the predicative noun is very closely connected with the subject.

Es sind/waren 6 Personen (400 Kilometer, viele Wochen).

In all other sentences starting with _es_ you have to check whether it is the subject or not. As a subject _es_ still remains in the sentence when you put another constituent at the beginning. When _es_ is not the subject it can be easily dropped when changing the word order.

Es nagt wie tausend Scorpione an ihm.  - Wie tausend Scorpione, nagt *es* an ihm. [Duden]

"Es" is the subject and the verb agrees with it in number and person._


_Es werden nicht alle Bilder angezeigt. - Nicht alle Bilder werden angezeigt.

Es bleiben viele Fragen offen. - Viele Fragen bleiben offen.

"Es" can be dropped, therefore it isn't the subject and has no influence on the verb form.


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## DaleC

Whodunit said:
			
		

> I'm not sure how you interpret "semi-grammatically", but if you understand it as "actually grammatically incorrect, but colloquially used", I must agree with you. "In Berlin ist es 29 Grad" is colloquial, although I can imagine having heard some native German newscasters forecasting "In Berlin wird es morgen unter 10 Grad minus". It -- which sentence, the "ist/sind es" or the "wird es morgen"? --is, however, still grammatically incorrect.


 
Is "In Berlin wird es morgen unter 10 Grad minus" ungrammatical, strictly speaking? If it is, what is the correct way? Thanks.


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## elroy

DaleC said:
			
		

> Is "In Berlin wird es morgen unter 10 Grad minus" ungrammatical, strictly speaking? If it is, what is the correct way? Thanks.


 
I would consider it incorrect, yes: "wird" should be "werden...sein."

But wait for the natives.


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## Katja

Hi all,

correct is:

In Berlin werden morgen unter minus 10°C sein.
In Berlin wird es morgen unter minus 10°C sein.

But I prefer the following versions: 
In Berlin wird es morgen kälter als minus 10°C sein.
In Berlin wird morgen das Termometer auf unter minus 10°C sinken.
Morgen werden in Berlin Temperaturen unter minus 10°C erwartet.

bye
Katja


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## I.C.

deadimp said:
			
		

> I.C. << Why do you use "sind" as the verb? Is the subject there the "29 Grad"?


Answer:


			
				Whodunit said:
			
		

> Having said that, I'd like to point out tat I.C. was correct when she* used "Es sind ... 29 Grad", because "29 Grad" are "29 degree*s*"


I feel "ist" isn't proper use of language.
By the way, heard on the news two days ago: "Morgen werden es bis zu fünf Grad."

*: No worries.


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## deadimp

Thanks! However, I have more questions:
> In the sentence "In Berlin werden morgen...", is "werden" an infinitive or is it conjugated? If it is conjugated, then what is its subject? If not, then how and why is it used like that? Is it simply slang?
> Does the following quote mean "Tomorrow it will get up to 5 degrees"?


			
				I.C. said:
			
		

> By the way, heard on the news two days ago: "Morgen werden es bis zu fünf Grad."


Is that usage of "bis" correct? *Rephrased* How is "bis" used there? Is it used like "up to", as in a limit?


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## DaleC

deadimp said:
			
		

> Thanks! However, I have more questions:
> > In the sentence "In Berlin werden morgen...", is "werden" an infinitive or is it conjugated? If it is conjugated, then what is its subject? If not, then how and why is it used like that? Is it simply slang?



There is a fascinating set of similarities and differences here in a comparison of "there is/are" and "es + verb". The two constructions share two similarities in syntax, but they mean different things. 

They both have dummy (semantically empty) subjects and they both have subjects that differ from just about any other subjects in their respective languages in that the verb does not agree with them. 

But "there is/are" predicates the existence of something, and "es ist/sind" does not. 



			
				deadimp said:
			
		

> > Does the following quote mean "Tomorrow it will get up to 5 degrees"?
> Is that usage of "bis" correct?


What a daring question (by a beginner to a native speaker).   No skin off my nose, you understand.


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## deadimp

DaleC said:
			
		

> What a daring question (by a beginner to a native speaker).   No skin off my nose, you understand.


Woops... Gotta rephrase that. I guess I'm kind of a hypocrite sometimes, because in Spanish and German class I always hear students say "No, that isn't correct," or something like that, to the teacher (and they are learning the language just as I am) and I think them to be "ignorant," and then I go and do something like that... Crap...
Thanks.


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## I.C.

deadimp said:
			
		

> Is that usage of "bis" correct? *Rephrased* How is "bis" used there? Is it used like "up to", as in a limit?


 Yep. 
Here: "Bis zu" = "up to".


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## mramos

Here you have an answer from a native spanish who has studied german for a long time. Therefore I've lernt german with rules. 
The rule is that the verb must be always in the second position of the sentence, when you are using a "Hauptsatz" and at the end in "Nebensätze". 
However there are always some exceptions or particular cases for these rules. For example, there are some elements that are placed in position 0 of the sentence, and in this case you don't invert the subject and verb:

Some easy examples:

Du solltest dich morgen warm anziehen, denn es wird kälter sein. (denn ist in position 0 and there's no inversion)
Du solltest dich morgen warm anziehen, weil es kälter sein wird. (nebensatz)
Es wird morgen kälter sein, deswegen solltest du dich morgen kälter anziehen (deswegen in first position, for this reason the subject must give his place to the verb)

For the elements that are placed in position 0 there is no rule, you must learn them.

Regarding the position of verb and subject in spanish sentences, there is no rule, and also it's important to say that most of the time the subject is omitted:

Mañana hará más frio en Berlin.
Mañana en Berlin hará más frio.
En Berlin hará más frio mañana.

You can use almost every combination. But only almost, and that's the difficult point. But if you haven't any pronom in the sentence it is really easy and almost everything is valid.

I hope I have helped you.

Marian

--------
please correct me in both English and German.


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