# me alegra saber + subjunctive



## kayokid

Hello.

As far as I understand it, the subjunctive is used after 'me alegra que,' as in:

Ex. Me alegra que estés estudiando español.

But what happens when you have an intervening infinitive, say 'saber,' in the sentence? Anything?

Ex. Me alegra saber que* estás/estés* estudiando español. (??)

Many thanks for any opinions.


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## pricklyanana

You would say "estás", I can just can not really explain why but "estés" doesn't sound right. So, yes, if you have an intervening verb you should use the indicative. 
Ex. Me gustaría pensar que estas estudiando/ estudias español
     Me encanta saber que estudias español


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## Momu

I think it's because "estar" isn't modified by "me alegra que" any more, now it's modified by "saber", which goes with certainty and the indicative.  Otherwise it wouldn't be "saber", right?  (We'd better leave that discussion to a philosophy forum, though...)


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## kayokid

Many thanks to both of you for your replies.


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## Cenzontle

Each verb governs only the next following one.
If you said "*I*'m glad *you *know that *she *is well," it would be
"Me alegra que sepas que está bien."  "Alegrar" calls for the subjunctive (with this change of subject), and "saber" calls for the indicative.
Now say "*I* know *you *are glad that *she *is well":
"Sé que te alegra que esté bien."


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## SevenDays

I keep looking at "estás/estés" and both look ok to me. This is one of those occasions where the choice of one mood or the other simply reflects the attitude of the speaker, and the attitude of the speaker is also a reflection of the inherent meaning of each mood. The indicative is by nature _objective _and therefore _factual_; in that case, the indicative underscores the meaning carried by "saber".  In other words, it's "known" that you are here, and "estás" reflects that reality. The subjunctive is _subjective,_ and so it underscores the _emotional_ meaning conveyed by "me alegra". With "estés," the focus is placed on the subjectivity of "me alegra" rather than on the factuality of "saber". 
Cheers


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## kayokid

Okay, I'll re-post what I deleted above...

1. Es importante que vayan a la fiesta. (subj. because of all the normal rules)
2. Niega que vayan a la fiesta. (subj. because of all the normal rules)
3. Es importante negar que van/vayan a la fiesta. (Here we have a intervening infinitive which shows doubt [see sentence #2] and requires the subjunctive because of all the normal rules... and yet the indicative seems to be the mood of choice.)

Still, I remember seeing, saying, learning, etc. sentences such as: Es muy importante decirle (a ella) que (ellos) van a ir a la fiesta.
Thus my conclusion that with *any* intervening infinitive the indicative is correct.


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## Peterdg

I completely agree with SevenDays' comment. The use of the subjunctive in your original sentence is called "inducción del modo verbal a distancia", meaning that a non contiguous element induces a verbal mood that is not really "expected". 

The reason why this happens, is exactly what SevenDays describes.


> 3. Es importante negar que van/vayan a la fiesta. (Here we have a intervening infinitive which shows doubt [see sentence #2] and requires the subjunctive because of all the normal rules... and yet the indicative seems to be the mood of choice.)


I don't know if this is true. From where do you deduce this? I'd definitely use the subjunctive here.


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## kayokid

Hello Peter.

The subjunctive is what I would have chosen but I was told that the indicative was correct.
What is it that makes you want the subjunctive here? The impersonal phrase (es importante) or the intervening verb (negar)? Or both?

 What about in this sentence: Me alegra saber que estás/estés estudiando español. Here we have the 'me alegra' and an intervening verb which shows/implies, etc. certainty. It seems that of the two forces at work the 'certainty' won out -- at least in the native Spanish speaker's mind -- and led to my and their conclusion/deduction that the indicative was the correct form.


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## Peterdg

I'd use the subjunctive because of "negar". The first part ("es importante que") does not intervene here.



> What about in this sentence: Me alegra saber que estás/estés estudiando español.


This is different: as SevenDays pointed out, both are possible: the indicative if you follow the strict syntactical logic; the subjunctive if you use the "emotional" logic (if at all you can talk about "logic" in this case). Actually, what happens when you use the subjunctive in this case is that the speaker kind of "forgets" that "saber" is in between and as such, considers the subjunctive inducing expression "es importante" more important in his mind than the presence of "saber".


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## blasita

Hello, Kayokid and everyone.

Grammar explanations have already been given. I'll talk about my use. As to the original sentence:

_Me alegra saber que *estás* estudiando español_. The subjunctive _estés_ does not sound good to me.

But of course: _Me alegra que estés estudiando español_.

Un saludo.


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## L'Inconnu

kayokid said:


> Hello.
> 
> As far as I understand it, the subjunctive is used after 'me alegra que,' as in:
> 
> Ex. Me alegra que estés estudiando español.
> 
> But what happens when you have an intervening infinitive, say 'saber,' in the sentence? Anything?
> 
> Ex. Me alegra saber que* estás/estés* estudiando español. (??)
> 
> Many thanks for any opinions.



GREAT. You have just found a way to avoid using the subjunctive! I'll keep in this in mind.


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## duvija

kayokid, wait till the snow is gone... (says duvija, now in Montevideo). You really got fantastic explanations. Not easy to digest, but you will be able to have a better idea.


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## jmx

As in post #11, the sentence with subjunctive (... saber que estés ...) doesn't sound right to me.


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## kayokid

Many thanks to all those who responded and for all opinions expressed.


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## blasita

Sorry, Kayokid, but this is not okay to me, not yet.


jmartins said:


> As in post #11, the sentence with subjunctive (... saber que estés ...) doesn't sound right to me.


 Hello, JMartins. I completely agree. It _sounds_ wrong to me.

I wonder if other speakers use it —so far, nobody has actually said that they actually use it on a regular basis. It would be interesting to know where it's actually used, especially in colloquial spoken language. I've never heard that in Spain.

Of course, I respect all points of view expressed in the thread. But, Peter (and other foreros): do you know if there's something in the NGLE about this construction in particular (not just general info), please?


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## L'Inconnu

kayokid said:


> Okay, I'll re-post what I deleted above...
> 
> 1. Es importante que vayan a la fiesta. (subj. because of all the normal rules)
> 2. Niega que vayan a la fiesta. (subj. because of all the normal rules)
> 3. Es importante negar que van/vayan a la fiesta. (Here we have a intervening infinitive which shows doubt [see sentence #2] and requires the subjunctive because of all the normal rules... and yet the indicative seems to be the mood of choice.)
> 
> Still, I remember seeing, saying, learning, etc. sentences such as: Es muy importante decirle (a ella) que (ellos) van a ir a la fiesta.
> Thus my conclusion that with *any* intervening infinitive the indicative is correct.



Now THIS is surprising. But still very useful if it turns out to be true.


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## Lurrezko

Sólo por añadir otra opinión: a mí me suena francamente mal el subjuntivo, aunque ya se sabe que podría haber diferencias regionales. Cualquier ejemplo mental que me pongo suena mal:

_Me alegra saber que vengas.
Me alegra saber que te mejores de tu enfermedad.
Me alegra saber que tengas lo que buscabas.

_Un saludo


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## kayokid

I found this:

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1387763

Maybe we can get some comments from the native speakers and see if we can reach a consensus. 

I am especially interested in post #4.


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## Peterdg

blasita said:


> ...
> But, Peter (and other foreros): do you know if there's something in the NGLE about this construction in particular (not just general info), please?


Hola Blasita,

Not exactly with "saber" as intervening verb but with similar verbs; See e.g. the NGLEem:


> *25.3.5e* Los predicados que inducen el subjuntivo lo hacen ocasionalmente en entornos no contiguos. Así, se esperaría que el verbo subrayado en _No es aventurado suponer que sea la última palabra que suene sobre la Tierra cuando se cumplan las amenazas nucleares _(Onetti, Reflexiones) apareciera en indicativo, ya que depende de suponer, un verbo de entendimiento (§ 25.3.1). No obstante, su inductor es el predicado _ser aventurado_, que indica valoración (§ 25.3.2) e impone el subjuntivo. Esta inducción del subjuntivo a distancia (a través de un predicado que impone el indicativo) es más frecuente cuando el predicado contiguo (_suponer_ en este ejemplo) denota pensamiento y creencia (_creer, imaginar, pensar, suponer y similares_: § 25.3.3b). Puede influir en ello la naturaleza parentética de estos verbos (cf._ …, se supone; …, pienso yo_, etc.) que quedan en un segundo plano en la conciencia del hablante.


 In the NGLEec, this subject is treated from 25.8d on (but that's too much work to copy)


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## blasita

Um, okay, thank you, Peter.

I'm afraid that to me that quote does not make it clear that the subjunctive is correct (according to the RAE) in the original sentence. The example given _No es aventurado suponer que + subjunctive_ sounds good to me. I think it might depend on the verb and the particular construction. Now, it must be just me.

I'll have a look at that section as soon as I can. Thanks again.


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## Peterdg

blasita said:


> Um, okay, thank you, Peter.
> 
> I'm afraid that to me that quote does not make it clear that the subjunctive is correct (according to the RAE) in the original sentence. The example given _No es aventurado suponer que + subjunctive_ sounds good to me. I think it might depend on the verb and the particular construction. Now, it must be just me.
> 
> I'll have a look at that section as soon as I can. Thanks again.


You are right; it doesn't prove that it is correct, but it certainly confirms Sevendays' comment about the possible use of the subjunctive in this case.

Personally, just like you, I wouldn't use a subjunctive in this case but I also have to admit that it is not uncommon to see similar cases in literature. I can't say I have seen it with "saber" as intermediate verb (I just don't remember the concrete cases) but I'm sure I have seen similar cases where I would definitely have chosen an indicative (and then, of course I want to know why and I went looking it up; that's why it was relatively easy for me to find it back in the NGLE).

PS. What do you mean with "Um"?

EDIT: I suddenly remembered another thread with a similar question/construction.


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## blasita

Hello again, Peter.

I always enjoy reading Seven's comments and learn from them. I think what he says is grammatically reasonable (a question of semantics). But I was also trying to find a clear and definite reference in the NGLE. 

Never say never, but in this case I can say I would never use the subjunctive in _Me alegra saber/ver, etc. que ..._, and that it sounds incorrect_._ There will probably be just a question of regional differences.  Six foreros have stated in this thread that they would not use _estés_. So, who actually uses the subjunctive in that sentence, please? Let's wait for some more replies.

PS


> um -.INTERJECTION /ʌm/ used for writing the sound that people make when they are thinking about what to say next, or when they are not sure how someone will react to what they are going to say. (Macmillan Dictionary)


 Exactly this ...


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## SevenDays

Let's see if I can be a little more precise
In _me alegra saber que estás estudiando español_, we have a clause (_que estás estudiando español_) that functions as the direct object of transitive "saber." The expectation is that, because the main verb is in the affirmative, "estás" should be in the indicative. The reason is that we are asserting something that is _true_, and therefore _factual; _there is no room for the _irreality_ sense of the subjunctive. Put another way, the verb in the subordinated clause goes in the mood that such verb would have if it stood in an independent structure: _*estás* estudiando español_ ~ _me alegra saber que *estás* estudiando español_. Learners of Spanish may wish to stop here, because this is all really straightforward. 

And yet....
If the subjunctive appears where it isn't expected to be, if it goes against the norm, taking the place of the indicative, then what imposes the subjunctive is simply the attitude of the speaker. We can't forget that moods come from within; they reflect our perception of the world, and sometimes that perception doesn't match the world as it is. The semantic effect of the subjunctive in _me alegra saber que *estés* estudiando español_ is that it presents "saber" as something known to both the speaker and the listener; the meaning of "saber" takes a back seat, so to speak, and what is underscored is the emotion conveyed by "me alegra." If I run into John at the supermarket, saying "*esté*" means I_ know _he is studying Spanish but he is not studying Spanish _at that particular moment_. Similarly, to me, "_me alegra saber que Pep Guardiola *sea* el nuevo entrenador del Bayern Munich_" sounds perfectly ok; what's conveyed here is not that he is the _new_ coach of Bayern Munich (we soccer/football fans know that) but that I'm _happy_ about it. It could be that this is true of "ser" and "estar" because these are copulative verbs (_ser_, a true copulative; _estar_, not really, but we tend to think of it as copulative nonetheless), and largely devoid of lexical meaning, though they do have a sense of "existence" when they are not used as linking verbs. The subjunctive in DO of "saber" seems to be blocked with verbs that have strong lexical meaning, and so the examples by Lurrezko in post #18 don't sound natural at all.  And yet, this, said in irony, wouldn't seem bad to me: _claro, me alegra saber que *tenga* tanto tiempo para jugar a la pelota y no para estudiar el subjuntivo_. I might consider this "tenga" colloquial, whereas I would consider "estés" and "sea" above quite idiomatic. 

Cheers


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## Lurrezko

SevenDays said:


> The subjunctive in DO of "saber" seems to be blocked with verbs that have strong lexical meaning, and so the examples by Lurrezko in post #18 don't sound natural at all.



Ah, puñetero, pero tu ejemplo de Guardiola no me suena mal. Dadme un buen ejemplo y moveré el mundo. Así no hay manera de tener una opinión sólida e inamovible, hombre.

Un saludo


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## blasita

Your example with _sea_ sounds idiomatic to me too. _Chapeau_, Seven!

Going back to the original sentence and taking _estés_, if someone told me _Me alegra saber que estés mejor_, I'd think that the speaker is thinking that I'm not better and lying for a reason:

_—¿Cómo estás?
—Estoy mejor, de verdad.
—Me alegra saber que *estés* mejor._  (=Tú dices que estás bien, pero yo sé/intuyo que no). So, it definitely sounds ironic to me. Anyway, _estés_ does not sound idiomatic to me in this case at all.

If, while I was in hospital, somebody had visited me and said _Me alegra ver que estés mejor _, well, I wouldn't have taken it so well ...

I still wonder why the original sentence sounds so weird or unusual to most speakers who contributed to this thread. I can't actually pinpoint the reason for it. Any thoughts? It's not then a question of regional differences? By the way, it's a pity that so far, we only have Spanish (of Spain) speakers talking about their usage.

A personal recommendation to non-native speakers: use the indicative in these cases, especially in exams. You will always get it right.


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## SevenDays

Vale, entonces _Pep_ me salva la vida en este hilo; aquí va otra, que también me suena bien: _me alegra saber que *hayas* entendido el subjuntivo_. Si tengo razón al decir que "saber" admite "ser" por el hecho de que éste es puramente copulativo (sin significado léxico más alla de_ existencia_), entonces no debería sorprender que "saber" también sea compatible con "estar", "tener" y "haber", pues todos estos verbos tienen mucho en común semánticamente con "ser". Por ende, traducimos estos verbos con "to be": _*tiene* hambre_ ~ _he *is* hungry_; _*hay* cuatro libros_ ~ _there *are* four books_; _*está* triste_ ~ _he* is *sad_; _*es* mi hermano_; _he *is *my brother_). Dándome una vuelta por internet, me encontré con este libro (aquí) que habla de "muchas similitudes" en la trayectoria diacrónica de estos verbos, y quizás por eso sea que, a mi entender, puedan aparecer en el contexto de "saber". Pero no quiero ser majadero; el uso del subjuntivo en este contexto es más bien una excepcion muy restringida (quizás con "ser" y "haber" más que con "tener" y "estar"), por lo que, en un exámen, usaría el indicativo para evitar una discusión tan semántica.

Saludos


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## blasita

Seven, yo ya había pensado en algunos ejemplos con varios tiempos verbales; el que comentas, _hayas entendido_ en tu ejemplo, sí que funciona para mí (como en otros contextos en el pasado). Pero ¿qué razón crees que hay para que, por ejemplo, ese _estés_ no suene nada bien a otros hispanohablantes como yo?

¿Hay alguien que pueda opinar sobre lo que yo he dicho y el ejemplo que he dado? Gracias.


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## SevenDays

blasita said:


> Seven, yo ya había pensado en algunos ejemplos con varios tiempos verbales; el que comentas, _hayas entendido_ en tu ejemplo, sí que funciona para mí (como en otros contextos en el pasado). Pero ¿qué razón crees que hay para que, por ejemplo, ese _estés_ no suene nada bien a otros hispanohablantes como yo?
> 
> ¿Hay alguien que pueda opinar sobre lo que yo he dicho y el ejemplo que he dado? Gracias.



Hola
Mi mensaje anterior se me fue sin haberlo terminado (no tengo idea que botón apreté, qué hice, para que se fuera así, tan repentinamente). Parece que hay algo en el valor semántico histórico de _ser_, _estar_, _haber_ y _tener_ (según ese enlance) que los permite aparecer en ciertos contextos _muy restringidos_ (como en nuestro ejemplo de "me alegra saber", ya que el uso del subjuntivo siempre depende del hablante) y no en otros, donde estos verbos ya tiene un significado léxico muy definido con el indicativo. Pero, entiendo perfectamente que no te suene nadie bien el subjuntivo en este contexto. 
Saludos


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## blasita

Okay, Seven. Thanks a lot. You're just great.

Hope this is now clear to Kayokid and other non-native speakers too.


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## kayokid

Hello. Well, you all have made a believer out of me. Previous to this time, I had never seen an example of the subjunctive following the structure I originally proposed. Now I see that, indeed, it is possible. This has been a very enlightening thread and I am deeply indebted to all for your comments and support. This is something that is not found in textbooks...

Kayokid


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## duvija

Me alegra saber que hayas sacado ese premio
(I'm at a place with very spotty internet connection. Can you hear the ocean thru the computer?)
well, this message won't get thru anyway...


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## Milton Sand

kayokid said:


> Hello.
> 
> As far as I understand it, the subjunctive is used after 'me alegra que,' as in:
> 
> Ex. Me alegra que estés estudiando español.
> 
> But what happens when you have an intervening infinitive, say 'saber,' in the sentence? Anything?
> 
> Ex. Me alegra saber que* estás/estés* estudiando español. (??)
> 
> Many thanks for any opinions.


Hi,
My two cents:

Me alegra *saber *que* estás* estudiando español. = _Me alegra *que yo sepa* que *estás *estudiando español. <—I'm not saying you should use “que yo sepa” here. It's just for clarification purposes._

“Saber” is the verb of a subordinate clause of which the subject is the same of the main sentence, and it introduces it's own subordiante clause. You need "estás" in indicative as the subordinate verb of “saber (_=que yo sepa_).” All subordinate sentences introduced by “saber” come in indicative mood (“estás”) because of the meaning of this verb.

As the action causing an emotional impression is the subordinate “saber”, this verb should come in subjunctive if its subject were other else than the same of the main sentence.

Another example: “Me alegra que *sepas* lo que *tienes* que hacer.”

Saludos,


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