# Serbian (BCS): Latinica/Ćirilica



## Roxannah_

Hi everyone
I'm interested in knowing a bit more about the usage of both alphabets in Serbia. Having never been there, I have no idea how things are evolving in this matter.

During the weekend I had my first contact with cursive ćirilica. While I read printed ćirilica quite well, I had a few problems understanding the cursive version, as some (if not most) of the letters are written in a different way than their printed correspondent. I read somewhere that ćirilica is nowadays more a national pride issue, rather than a practical one, and that gradually latinica is becoming dominant. Would you say this is somewhat true? I'd love to hear you opinion about it.

Another thing I'd like to know is if anyone writes identically to the printed ćirilica version at all, or if that's just silly  I ask because (apart from the fact that printed ćirilica is much more appealing to me) me personally, and a lot of my friends, have over time prefered to write closer to the printed alphabet version when it comes to some letters. Although that isn't an issue here, just a matter of preference and personal style. Giving a specific example, would anyone write a д instead of a g?

Thanks!


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## sokol

Serbians probably used Latinica more than Ćirilica _before_ the war, but this might have changed a bit now.
In Bosnian _Republika Srpska_ Ćirilica indeed was (and possibly still is) a matter of national pride but it could be different in Serbia.

Anyway, Serbians learn both scripts and can switch freely between them; the same was true for Bosnians of all nations before the war - but this is less so the case now, especially for Croatian Bosnians.

But wait for Serbian natives, I'm sure updates on the recent situation will come in soon (and I'm also very curious about newest developments ).


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## phosphore

Discussions on this subject are usually endless and quite passionate and I think there is no Serbian forum that does not have one. Basically there are those who think that preserving ćirilica is a matter of tradition, identity and national pride, and those who think that keeping latinica is a question of being modern and practical. Anyway, ćirilica has been losing ground to latinica for a century now, although this trend is possibly slowed down in the last few years. You will hardly ever see ćirlica in advertisments or in business papers and contracts and that is how it has been for decades, but ćirilica seems to be used by government bodies more often now than a few years ago.

I personally handwrite only in Cyrillic except when filling in a form that is in Latin alphabet, while I use both the Cyrillic and the Latin alphabet in typing. I don't really like mixing the two so I normally use the Latin alphabet, the Cyrillic being reserved for such uses as formal letters, projects, assignments, or when typing down my notes.

You may find here the cursive we are taught at school. The forms might get simplified through the years and some majuscules might be substituted by their printed versions, but that's basically how it looks and I don't think anyone would use the printed versions of any minuscule in handwriting.


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## DenisBiH

Сад кад размислим, то и јесте понешто специфично. Ја лично сам  писаним словима, било латиничним било ћириличним, задњи пут нешто написао тамо у средњој школи (осим потписа). Кад пишем руком увијек и искључиво штампаним (латиничним) словима. 

Нема баш нико ко руком пише штампаним ћириличним?


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## phosphore

Nekad na obrascima napišu "pisati štampanim slovima". Ja jedino tad.


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## dark_helmut

Roxannah_ said:


> Hi everyone
> I'm interested in knowing a bit more about the usage of both alphabets in Serbia. Having never been there, I have no idea how things are evolving in this matter.
> 
> During the weekend I had my first contact with cursive ćirilica. While I read printed ćirilica quite well, I had a few problems understanding the cursive version, as some (if not most) of the letters are written in a different way than their printed correspondent. I read somewhere that ćirilica is nowadays more a national pride issue, rather than a practical one, and that gradually latinica is becoming dominant. Would you say this is somewhat true? I'd love to hear you opinion about it.



There is an opinion that ćirilica is _more Serbian_ and latinica _foreign,_ but that opinion is not widespread and I will leave that aside. The most common thing in Serbia is that ćirilica is used in cursive in handwriting when needed to write fast, e.g. while taking notes on highschool/university classes, taking brief notes, in handbooks and while writing signatures, and latinica in printed form, when what is written needs to be neat and classy. 

On computers, mobile phones, printing and publishing (and in the old days on typewriters) latinica is dominant because of practical issues. Before the Unicode and modern operative systems, latinica was much easier to obtain. Today, in public usage latinica is dominant, even to that extent that ćirilica was harder and harder to find. On the other hand, ćirilica is stimulated by the government and country institutions. An equilibrium is created where ćirilica is more national and official, latinica more popular and widespread, and both in active use in handwriting by most people.



Roxannah_ said:


> Another thing I'd like to know is if anyone writes identically to the printed ćirilica version at all, or if that's just silly  I ask because (apart from the fact that printed ćirilica is much more appealing to me) me personally, and a lot of my friends, have over time prefered to write closer to the printed alphabet version when it comes to some letters. Although that isn't an issue here, just a matter of preference and personal style. Giving a specific example, would anyone write a д instead of a g?
> 
> Thanks!



It is most common to write ćirilica in cursive, the way Phosphore showed on that link, and latinica in printed form. No official explanation, it's just a common habit. I myself write ćirilica in its printed form rather than latinica, but with a few differences, here's how it looks:

http://i47.tinypic.com/2nrob5x.jpg

As seen, some letters are different. I write D (Д) and L (Л) closer to capital Greek Delta Δ and Lambda Λ, and I extend small ž (ж), z (з) and h (х).



DenisBiH said:


> Нема баш нико ко руком пише штампаним ћириличним?



Ima, ali je vrlo retko. Mnogi ljudi su toliko nenaviknuti na pisanje štampanih ćiriličnih slova da im rukopis tada izgleda kao dečiji, sa onim nespretnim crtanjem slova.  Naravno, govorim o običnom svetu, ne o njegovom obrazovanijem delu. Nagledao sam se mnogo popunjenih obrazaca i imao prilike da vidim rukopis iste osobe kada piše ćirilicu pisano, ćirilicu štampano i latinicu štampano i moj je generalni utisak da se ljudi najnespretnije služe pisanom latinicom i štampanom ćirilicom. Naravno, kada treba pisati uz korišćenje i malih i velikih slova.


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## Orlin

Pozdrav svima! Ovo je relativno star thread: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1602010 u kojem sam postovao latinični srpski prevod (post br. 3), a neki srpski forero me je ispravio zamenjujući latinicu ćirilicom (post br. 8). Ja sam se čudio zašto ovaj forumaš ispravlja u postu br. 9 i odgovor je bio da je ćirilica zvanično pismo u Srbiji i zato je bila potrebna ispravka (post br. 11).


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## dark_helmut

Orlin said:


> Pozdrav svima! Ovo je relativno star thread: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1602010 u kojem sam postovao latinični srpski prevod (post br. 3), a neki srpski forero me je ispravio zamenjujući latinicu ćirilicom (post br. 8). Ja sam se čudio zašto ovaj forumaš ispravlja u postu br. 9 i odgovor je bio da je ćirilica zvanično pismo u Srbiji i zato je bila potrebna ispravka (post br. 11).



Ćirilica is the official script only in the official documents issued by the government and country institutions. In literature, press, media and public usage in general, both scripts are used. For instance, the website of Serbian government itself has both its ćirilica and latinica version.

Mada ne znam zašto sam krenuo da odgovaram na engleskom.  U ustavu Srbije je ćirilica određena kao _službeno_ pismo (pismo koje se koristi u državnoj službi), pa mnogi valjda to pogrešno tumače kao _zvanično_. Zvaničnog pisma nema, jer se oba pisma koriste kao pisma srpskog jezika. Ćirilica u Srbiji ima svoj tradicionalan i istorijski karakter i predstavlja karakteristično pismo koje je na neki način obeležje Srbije, ali nije zvanično pismo. Možda samo preferirano.


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## Orlin

Ja nemam iskustva s pisanjem rukom na srpskom (a i skoro nikad ne pišem rukom na bilo kom inostranom jeziku), a na kompjuteru uvek koristim latinicu jer je obično tehnički lakše (posebno na ovom forumu). Ako mi je ipak nekada potrebno pisati rukom na srpskom, upotrebio bih opet latinicu pošto sam više naviknut - mnogo sam pisao rukom na drigim inostranim jezicima koji koriste latinično pismo (engleski i nemački) u školi, a srpsku ćirilicu nikad nisam koristio u pisanju (rukom ili ne) i očekujem da mi bude teško pisati na njoj iako se na mom maternjem jeziku piše samo ćirilicom (i ja pišem na bugarskom pisanim slovima).


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## Roxannah_

I understand why this would be a heated debate and I perfectly understand the general feel about both alphabets. It's still not clear for me though which alphabet I would come across in specific situations. Latinica or Ćirilica (or both!) Hypothetical situations:

A. Gas in Portugal is really cheap (sarcasm) so I decide to drive to Serbia. As soon as I enter the country, which alphabet would I see on street signs?

B. I'm attending a semester in a Serbian university and I'm sitting for an exam. Which alphabet would my Serbian colleagues most likely use?

C. I have a very twisted idea of fun so I go to a bookstore looking for a book from a Portuguese author in it's Serbian version. Would I find it written in latinica or ćirilica or both?

D. I'm in Niš and I want to send a postcard to my friend in Novi Sad. Which alphabet should I use?

Ps. Thanks for the scan, Dark_helmut! It's much easier for me to understand it than any other cursive version.

And phospore, do people *really* write cursive ćirilica using all those turns? For example when it comes to the Ђ. It seems to me that would be the version you learn in school but at some point people start simplifying it, tell me if I'm wrong.


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## phosphore

Roxannah_ said:


> A. Gas in Portugal is really cheap (sarcasm) so I decide to drive to Serbia. As soon as I enter the country, which alphabet would I see on street signs?
> 
> Both. You would see some writen in both Cyrillic and Latin, some written only in Latin and possibly some written only in Cyrillic alphabet.
> 
> B. I'm attending a semester in a Serbian university and I'm sitting for an exam. Which alphabet would my Serbian colleagues most likely use?
> 
> A little majority would use Cyrillic alphabet. This however may depend on the region.
> 
> C. I have a very twisted idea of fun so I go to a bookstore looking for a book from a Portuguese author in it's Serbian version. Would I find it written in latinica or ćirilica or both?
> 
> A little majority would be in Cyrillic alphabet. That depends on the publisher.
> 
> D. I'm in Niš and I want to send a postcard to my friend in Novi Sad. Which alphabet should I use?
> 
> Either. That's up to you.
> 
> And phospore, do people *really* write cursive ćirilica using all those turns? For example when it comes to the Ђ. It seems to me that would be the version you learn in school but at some point people start simplifying it, tell me if I'm wrong.
> 
> No, you're right, it does get simplified to a certain extent, but the letters still stay a long way from their printed versions.


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## DenisBiH

Изванредно је читљиво (тај задњи примјер). Заправо сам запрепаштен, преко 18 година ништа нисам писао писаном ћирилицом нити шта на њој читао, а апсолутно течно се ово да прочитати (течније него читам туђу писану латиницу). Подсјећа ме увод на моја писма самом себи из раних двадесетих, док је профа нешто пилао о транзисторима. 

Тек видјех крај, Меша је у питању значи.


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## Orlin

Чини ми се да постоји тенденција "латинизације" свих језика јер су савремене информацијске технологије саздане и развијене у државама у којим се официјални језик пише само латиницом. Код нас се дефинитивно тако дешава: иако је само ћирилица службено писмо за бугарски језик, у SMSима, emailима и другим неформалним врстама комуникације преко савремених ИТ користи се скоро увек латиница и при томе сваки пише како му се допада јер је то неофицијално писмо и зато нема правила (из овог разлога није много лако читати такве поруке и на неким нашим форумима пише да се препоручује писати *ћирилицом*). Очекујем да су такве тенденције јаче у државама у којим су и ћирилица и латиница службена писма.
Склон сам да чак мислим да је потребно намерно чувати и промовирати ћирилицу због њеног традиционалног и историјског карактера - иначе може да се релативно брзо изгуби. Тренутно је ћирилица службено писмо Европске Уније (тако је већ мало више од 3 године) поред латиничног и грчког писма и ово је у некој мери гаранција за сачување или проширење њене употребе у блиској будућности.


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## phosphore

I agree, but that's a different issue. People all over the world use the Latin alphabet when writing on the Internet, in text messages, probably also on shop signs and I don't know where, but otherwise they use only the local alphabet. Here you have official documents, business contracts, books published in latinica, advertisments only in latinica, ćirilica has been loosing ground to latinica in all spheres of written communication. That is why we say it is endangered. I wouldn't say it is endangered even the slightest bit in Bulgaria, Macedonia or Russia, even though Bulgarians, Macedonians and Russians may use the Latin alphabet in some situations.


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## Orlin

phosphore said:


> I wouldn't say it is endangered even the slightest bit in Bulgaria, Macedonia or Russia, even though Bulgarians, Macedonians and Russians may use the Latin alphabet in some situations.


 
Ja se slažem ako se to tiče relativno bliske budućnosti, ali nikako ne mogu da budem siguran šta se može desiti s ćirilicom nakon 3-4 generacije: koliko ja znam, većina mladih kod nas piše skoro isključljivo SMS i čat poruke latinicom i retko nešto drugo, a neki naš ministar je ovog 24. maja (praznik slovenske kulture i pismenosti kod nas) rekao (ne znam da li ozbiljno ili u šali) da ne treba zaboravljati da mi imamo svoju azbuku, da ne treba pisati 4 i 6 umesto ч i ш itd. - zvuči smešno, ali možda nije.
Izvinjavam se ako sam krenuo off topic.


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## Милан

Roxannah  As soon as you enter the country expect the unexpected.

off
Никад ми неће бити јасно како Македонци могу да шаљу СМС поруке ћирилицом а ми у Србији не. Осим угрожености ћирилице у Србији, рекао бих да је угрожена и латиница од стране те "ошишане латинице". Не будимо лењи, користимо č,š,ć,đ и ž.


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## Duya

Милан said:


> http://forum.wordreference.com/member.php?u=337121Не будимо лењи, користимо č,š,ć,đ и ž.



Ja jesam neko vreme, dok nisam otkrio da se čim ukucam neko od njih tekst automatski konvertuje u UTF-16, što znači da zauzima dva bajta po svakom znaku, a što znači i da je SMS praktično duplo skuplji. Onda sam odustao, i prihvatio "lepotu" _osisane _latinice.


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## phosphore

To say that the way people write text messages is putting the language (or its writing system) in danger is quite an assumption, I must notice. The French, for instance, don't always use their accents either, would you say that French is also endangered? To me correct latinica with all the diacritics, let alone ćirlica, actually looks pretentious in a text message.


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## DenisBiH

orlin said:


> ja se slažem ako se to tiče relativno bliske budućnosti, ali nikako ne mogu da budem siguran šta se može desiti s ćirilicom nakon 3-4 generacije: Koliko ja znam, većina mladih kod nas piše skoro isključljivo sms i čat poruke latinicom i retko nešto drugo, a neki naš ministar je ovog 24. Maja (praznik slovenske kulture i pismenosti kod nas) rekao (ne znam da li ozbiljno ili u šali) da ne treba zaboravljati da mi imamo svoju azbuku, da ne treba pisati 4 i 6 umesto ч i ш itd. - zvuči smešno, ali možda nije.




Да, али са друге стране такво стање у бугарском, да бугарски нема "своју латиницу" већ се користи 4, 6 итд. иде у прилог очувању ћирилице код вас. Кад би имали опћеприхваћени систем писања латиницом онда би стање код вас вјероватно било као у Србији како га овдје описују дискутанти из Србије.


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## Roxannah_

Thanks everyone for your replies, needless to say I only understand bits and pieces of what is written in Serbian (and I admit being confronted with big blocks of ćirilica text still scares me...)

I find it particularly interesting that each publishing company makes their own rules regarding printing in latina or ćirilica. Assuming I can't read ćirilica, I don't suppose I can find a particular book printed in ćirilica also printed in latinica...?

Phosphore, thanks so much for your scan. At first look it doesn't look ćirilica at all (mainly because 1. I'm not used to seeing it and 2. in my mind ćirilica still comes only in it's printed version). I understand most of the letters (not all) and I'm proud to say I even understood half a sentence 



Милан said:


> Roxannah  As soon as you enter the country expect the unexpected.



Should I be afraid 



phosphore said:


> To say that the way people write text messages is putting the language (or its writing system) in danger is quite an assumption, I must notice. The French, for instance, don't always use their accents either, would you say that French is also endangered? To me correct latinica with all the diacritics, let alone ćirlica, actually looks pretentious in a text message.



The exact same thing happens here. It does look very pretentious if you text message your friends using all accents and don't abbreviate some words (although older people usually write using proper spelling). I wouldn't say the language is in danger because we write, say, a K (there are no K's in Portuguese) to replace QUE, as we do it to spare characters and save time when typing. I don't know what the original post meant, I can only infer it from Phosphore's reply, what I can say is there are in fact lots of kids that nowadays are abbreviating words in school just as they do when they text message a friend. "I'm here writting" - "estou a escrever aqui" quickly becomes "tou a xcrever aki." I suppose the learning process for them is harmed, but I wouldn't go as far as saying that the language, any, is endangered.

Would someone be so kind and write the ćirilica alphabet for me, the practical version, so I have an idea where to simplify. All the cursive ćirilica that I find online is this pretty one you posted here. I have a better idea now that I've seen phosphore's (beautiful) handwritting, but I'm still not able to identify all of the letters yet. If someone could do that, I'd be greatly appreciated.


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## phosphore

Roxannah_ said:


> I find it particularly interesting that each publishing company makes their own rules regarding printing in latina or ćirilica. Assuming I can't read ćirilica, I don't suppose I can find a particular book printed in ćirilica also printed in latinica...?


 
Some of my university books are in ćirilica while other are in latinica and yet they are published by the same university, so authors probably decide too. However, if you want to find the very same text in both alphabets it has to be published by two publishing houses at two different times. 



Roxannah_ said:


> The exact same thing happens here. It does look very pretentious if you text message your friends using all accents and don't abbreviate some words (although older people usually write using proper spelling). I wouldn't say the language is in danger because we write, say, a K (there are no K's in Portuguese) to replace QUE, as we do it to spare characters and save time when typing. I don't know what the original post meant, I can only infer it from Phosphore's reply, what I can say is there are in fact lots of kids that nowadays are abbreviating words in school just as they do when they text message a friend. "I'm here writting" - "estou a escrever aqui" quickly becomes "tou a xcrever aki." I suppose the learning process for them is harmed, but I wouldn't go as far as saying that the language, any, is endangered.


 
That's a different matter. Those kids just haven't acquired the whole pragmatic competence. One can't say that tu-vous distinction is in danger because some of the language users don't apply this distinction properly. The same goes for spelling.

Anyway, this is how I write the single letters. I had fun making this one, but I must say it is not the proper cursive, it is how it evolved (or rather deteriorated) through the years in my hand, and some letters, especially capital <Б, В, Г, E, Ж, П, T, Ф, Х> and lower case <ж, м, ф, х>, may look quite differently in some other people's handwriting. Most linking lines can be omitted, that partly depends on the context (position in the word and surrounding letters), and partly depends on you (whether you want to link letters or not). That's it, I hope I helped.

As a side note, I still don't know how to write <Ж, ж> properly, so if you experience some difficulties of the same kind, that's OK.


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## Милан

phosphore said:


> As a side note, I still don't know how to write <Ж, ж> properly, so if you experience some difficulties of the same kind, that's OK.



I write it like two K. It's easier.


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## dark_helmut

Everybody seems to have their unique way of ćirilica cursive. Here's mine:

http://i50.tinypic.com/2e5qwdx.jpg


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## phosphore

You write really good. Now that's cursive.


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## Duya

Resembles mine, really (i don't have an access to a scanner to prove it, though  ). I also use those "baroque" capitals, and somewhat "flat" (not upright) minuscules. I usually write in Latin, though, and intense use of typing has really deteriorated my handwriting.


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## Roxannah_

Phosphore and dark_helmust, thank you so so much for the scans and for taking the time to do this for me. You are super!! I really appreciate it... consider yourselves hugged 

It's been really helpful, and I love that you included the direction of the strokes phosphore! Makes me feel I've gone back to primary school  Really, I practiced a little today while I had a friend over and he kept picking on me  As soon as I practice some more I'll write something and post it, hopefully someone will understand it! 

You are the best, thank you 

Ps. I always adopt a practical attitude. For the Ж I draw a sort of X and then cut it in half


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## Roxannah_

What do you guys think? Readable? 

http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/7196/dm001.jpg


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## Duya

Roxannah_ said:


> What do you guys think? Readable?
> 
> http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/7196/dm001.jpg



Quite . Though it's somewhere halfway between cursive and printed .

I find your form of letter "u" (y) rather idiosyncratic. I haven't seen anyone writing it like that, it resembles "dž" (џ).


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## Милан

Roxannah_ said:


> What do you guys think? Readable?
> 
> http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/7196/dm001.jpg



O my, I wish I could write like you. It's so readable. And yes, you should write our cyrillic u like english y (cursive).


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## Roxannah_

Duya said:


> Quite . Though it's somewhere halfway between cursive and printed .



Does that give me away as foreign?  I followed Phosphore's guidelines for the most part. His writting, apart from being absolutely beautiful, does implement some elements of printed cyrillic, which is great for me as I'm not very fond of the pure cursive version of the alphabet.



Duya said:


> I find your form of letter "u" (y) rather idiosyncratic. I haven't seen anyone writing it like that, it resembles "dž" (џ).



Yeah I do my Y's in my own special way. As long as people can identify it as an Y (haven't had any problems with it in latinica) then it's all good. It goes with my "round-shaped" style 

Do my Ц's look ok? I'm having a hard time writing them...



Милан said:


> O my, I wish I could write like you. It's so  readable. And yes, you should write our cyrillic u like english y  (cursive).



I do  If that's going to be problematic I can change it to a more conventional Y.


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## phosphore

Roxannah_ said:


> What do you guys think? Readable?
> 
> http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/7196/dm001.jpg


 
Your <у> looks like <џ>, but appart from that, no one would think you were a foreigner. And your letters are very much readable. Congratulations!


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## Duya

Roxannah_ said:


> Does that give me away as foreign?



No, really not. I couldn't tell.



Roxannah_ said:


> Do my Ц's look ok? I'm having a hard time writing them...



They're OK. I think they are a sort of problem even for native writers (well, at least for me  ). Luckily, they're one of the most rarely used. 



Roxannah_ said:


> I do  If that's going to be problematic I can change it to a more conventional Y.



Please do. Sure I do deduce them from context, but they somehow bother me while reading (otherwise excellent handwriting). If you want them to conform to the "round" style, write them in shape of Latin "g", just without the fully closed top. (Similar to ɥ , but with a pronounced tail).


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## Roxannah_

I will then  Thank you all for your feedback!


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