# el que quiera...



## virgilio

*Nota del moderador:*

*Estos mensajes fueron separados de este **hilo*http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=572451 *debido a que encaran un tema diferente.*


While we're on the subject of subjunctives implying in the mind of the speaker less than 100% certainty, truth or reality, Spanishlearner79 may also like to consider sentences like the following:

El que quiera periòdico, que lo compre como yo.
Anyone who wants a paper, let him buy one as I (did).

Virgilio


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## roanheads

virgilio said:


> While we're on the subject of subjunctives implying in the mind of the speaker less than 100% certainty, truth or reality, Spanishlearner79 may also like to consider sentences like the following:
> 
> El que quiera periòdico, que lo compre como yo.
> Anyone who wants a paper, let him buy one as I (did).
> 
> Virgilio


 
Hola Virgilio,

As quiera is " subjunctive " , I would translate your sentence beginning " anyone who may want a paper "------which then fulfils the doubt implied by using a subjunctive
Saludos


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## virgilio

roanheads,
              Thanks for yur reply. That must be a norrth o' the borrderr expression. I doubt whether any of us Sassenachs would say "may want" instead of "wants" in a sentence of this type. I may be wrong, of course.

best wishes
Virgilio


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## roanheads

Hola Virgilio,
Tut Tut,! geography does not apply, " anyone may ( or may not) wish or want to buy a newspaper , depending on various reasons. That is standard English.
Simply bringing out the influence of the subjunctive " quiera ".

Your example is a little confusing  to a Spanish beginner, however, as " el que " plus subjunctive verb can be the equivalent of " el hecho de que " which translates " the fact that", which usually takes the subjunctive in a sentence, unless preceded by a proverb.

A more straightforward example might be  " Si alguien quiere un periódico, ¡ qué lo compre "!

Cheerrrrrs !


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## virgilio

roanheads,
              (Ye'll 've had yourrr tea!)
              The "él que" (please note the accent on "él") is quite different from the "el que" which you rightly point out would mean either "el hecho que" or "la proposiciòn que".
When "él que" has the accent, I maintain it can mean only "He who" (like "quién") and, when the "que" clause verb is subjunctive, the "he" becomes indefinite and so equal to "anyone".
There is an attractive Mexican song called La Cascabel and some of the words, if my memory serves me aright, are:

Bonito es tu cascabel, vida mía, quién te lo dió?
Vida mía, quién te lo dió? Bonito es tu cascabel!

A mí no me lo dió nadie; mi dinero me costó
y, él que quiera cascabel, que lo compre, como yo.!

I rest my case!

 With best wishes
Virgilio


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## roanheads

Hola Virgilio,
Of course "él " with accent is a personal pronoun which can be the subject of a sentence meaning " he " or "it ", but neither in your original " post " nor in poem is there an accent on the " e ", so perhaps you are changing the topic slightly. This again shows the importance of the accent in Spanish.
I consider that the use of the subjunctive takes the definition out of the verb  in this case ,not the subject, leaving a supposition " that someone may want a newspaper," similarly in the poem, I translate the influence of the subjunctive to qualify the verb from " want " to " may want.
How often in a Spanish restaurant have I heard , ( and used ) when asking for the bill, the polite addition of " cuando quieras " or cuando puedas " which translates " when you ( may ) wish ", and when you ( may be ) are able " " especially if the waiter is very busy. The touch of the subjunctive
is good Spanish, used to soften the direct verb.
Saludos.


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## sendai

roanheads said:


> As quiera is " subjunctive " , I would translate your sentence beginning " anyone who may want a paper "------which then fulfils the doubt implied by using a subjunctive


Hi, roanheads. While you translation isn't wrong, it would not be a particularly common phrase in the US. To me, with "may" it sounds more like "el quie pueda llegar a querer un periódico", a very uncertain sounding sentence indeed.  

The subjunctive doesn't really imply doubt here.  Rather, it is used because the antecedent (el que) is indefinite. In the English I speak, "anyone" implies the same indefiniteness and therefore is sufficient to translate the subjunctive here.  But I don't live where you live, so YMMV.

el que quiere = the one who wants/he who wants/that guy who wants
el que quiera = whoever wants/anyone who wants


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## roanheads

sendai said:


> Hi, roanheads. While you translation isn't wrong, it would not be a particularly common phrase in the US. To me, with "may" it sounds more like "el quie pueda llegar a querer un periódico", a very uncertain sounding sentence indeed.
> 
> The subjunctive doesn't really imply doubt here. Rather, it is used because the antecedent (el que) is indefinite. In the English I speak, "anyone" implies the same indefiniteness and therefore is sufficient to translate the subjunctive here. But I don't live where you live, so YMMV.
> 
> el que quiere = the one who wants/he who wants/that guy who wants
> el que quiera = whoever wants/anyone who wants


 
hi sendai,
With all respect, I don't agree with your thesis. In your two examples, my natural understanding is that " el que" means the same in both cases ie." anyone , whoever, or, the one that." The difference in the sentences  lies in the verb change from indicative to subjunctive to give that touch of supposition, which is one of the riches of the language.

El que quiere  ----- whoever wants ( or wishes )
El que quiera ------ whover may want ( or wish )
Having given our thoughts,  we are not native speakers, and as I think what has been discussed is really interesting. Perhaps a Spanish friend can comment. I have always been impressed with the importance of the subjunctive in good spanish, and would appreciate " comentarios " to clarify the above,

¡A ver !
Un saludo.


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## NewdestinyX

roanheads said:


> hi sendai,
> With all respect, I don't agree with your thesis. In your two examples, my natural understanding is that " el que" means the same in both cases ie." anyone , whoever, or, the one that." The difference in the sentences lies in the verb change from indicative to subjunctive to give that touch of supposition, which is one of the riches of the language.
> 
> El que quiere ----- whoever wants ( or wishes )
> El que quiera ------ whover may want ( or wish )
> Having given our thoughts, we are not native speakers, and as I think what has been discussed is really interesting. Perhaps a Spanish friend can comment. I have always been impressed with the importance of the subjunctive in good spanish, and would appreciate " comentarios " to clarify the above,
> 
> ¡A ver !
> Un saludo.


 
I have to agree with Sendai on this one. "Whoever" in English is pretty open ended as a translation for the 'el que quiere' which is a very defined concept in the Spanish speaking mind from what I've been told.



Spanishlearner79 said:


> I have learnt tht subjunctive mood is used when there is a doubt or denial (broadly speaking)


 
SpLearner,
My experience has taught me that you need to steer clear of that definition of the Subjunctive. It only works some of the time and can make you second guess yourself too much about 'where that pesky doubt is'. There are many syntaxes that simply trigger the subjunctive and you have to use it -- and there is no doubt that can really be discerned in many of them. So it's best you learn those and memorize the cases. In your sentences, as others have told you -- Subjunctive follows 'denials'. I disagree, as some have propoed, that subj. in those sentences has anything to do with perception of reality, etc.

Generally speaking: "denials" (No es que..., No hay_____que..., No_____que, etc) take subjunctive.

Now -- in the cases where subjunctive is about uncertainty -- the indicative is also possible. The choice with indicative means established fact and the choice with subjunctive is either forward projecting into the future or adding a sense of uncertainty.

El que quiere ir... = The guy who wants to go (we know there is one -- he told us he wants to go)
El que quiera ir.. = Anyone who wants to go (we don't know if there is one).

Tal vez va. = Maybe he's going. (we're pretty sure he will -- he said he'd like to)
Tal vez vaya. - Maybe he's going. (really not sure at all -- sounds like his work schedule is too busy.

So the 'doubt'/uncertainty issue comes into play mostly when the Indicative is also possible. 

Even that's an oversimplification. But I'd study my main triggers for subjunctive first and then learn all the other cases. It takes a while to master this usage as I'm sure you're well aware..


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## virgilio

roanheads,
               Sorry about the missed accents. The first was a capital and so, as I believe, needn't be accented; the second was an inadvertence, now corrected: "él que quiera cascabel, que lo compre como yo".

I'm afraid I must disagree with your comments about the subjunctive in "que" clauses (if I've understood them correctly, that is).
Whenever a simple tense group subjunctive (present or imperfect) is used in an adjectival (_aka_ 'relative' clause) introduced by "que", the correlative antecedent is always indefinite:
e.g.
Puedes mandarme *los libros* que ya no te sirvan más
You can send me *any books* that are no longer any use to you


In re:"How often in a Spanish restaurant have I heard , ( and used ) when asking for the bill, the polite addition of " cuando quieras " or cuando puedas " which translates " when you ( may ) wish ", and when you ( may be ) are able " " especially if the waiter is very busy. The touch of the subjunctive is good Spanish, used to soften the direct verb."

I disagree about 'softening the verb'. The conjunction "cuando" *always* has a simple tense group subjunctive (present or imperfect), when it refers to future time. Nothing 'softened' about it. As a matter of fact, the expression "cuando quieras" would probably very accurately translate into English as "whenever you like!" or "any time you like!".

Best wishes
Virgilio


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## Outsider

virgilio said:


> [...] the second was an inadvertence, now corrected: "él que el que quiera cascabel, que lo compre como yo".


There was nothing to correct.


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## virgilio

Outsider,
             Thanks but are you sure?


Best wishes
Virgilio


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## Outsider

_El_ is not an objective pronoun here. It does not mean "he". If I'm not mistaken, it's an article (the one who).


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## amarillo33

Whether we decide to translate it as "he/she they who..." or not, "el/la/los/las que..." can refer to a person or persons.

"El que quiera periódico, que lo compre como yo."
We are talking about the possibility of a person who wants a newspaper in the future. We know this because the idea of "que lo compre" cannot happen right now.  The structure EL/LA/LOS/LAS (optional noun here) QUE + (present subjunctive) often refers to a future idea.

amarillo33


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## roanheads

Hi All,

I think we are all going nowhere fast with this one.To restate my idea.
In " el quiera un periodico " we are talking about some poor guy, whoever may be the one eventually, who may or may not want a newspaper.  I am not too fussy about the translation of the " el que " part which obviously has several translations. This is a  classic example of a situation which has not happened yet, and may never happen, and in which the Spanish subjunctive excels  by inserting this doubt. My point is that I naturally translate the subjunctive " quiera " as " whoever may want" thereby translating a Spanish subjunctive into an English subjunctive, which retains the important " doubt " element. This is exactly how we were taught at the University by a native speaking Prof. and which has served me well, in the Spanish speaking world,

Saludos.


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## virgilio

amarillo33 and outsider,
                               Thank you but what about a passage such as the following:?
(A disappointed girl to her boy friend)
 !Así que no me has comprado las flores! Y te disculpas diciéndome que te falte dinero! Pues el que te falte dinero no me interesa. De aquí en adelante no quiero volver a verte - ni pintado!"

In this case the "el que" plainly does not mean "he/she/it who" but "the proposition that". Do Spanish speakers really make absolutely no distinction between the two?

Best wishes
Virgilio


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## Outsider

To be honest, I did not know that Spanish construction, though it doesn't surprise me to see it.


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## roanheads

Hi All,
Perhaps I can amplify a little more on "el que " plus subjunctive, which I already mentioned on a previous post above as having one of its meanings as " the fact that " .

 Use of the subjunctive is common after " el hecho de que " -- the fact that, and also after " el que " or " que " when they mean the same as " el hecho de que.
El hecho de que los gramáticos no siempre estén de acuerdo deja perplejos a muchos estudiantes.
El que lo hayamos visto tres veces no puede ser una coincidencia.

Both of the above examples with the meaning " the fact that ".

It is clear that the context must differenciate between the various meanings of "el que" plus subjunctive, also adding to the complication is " el que " plus indicative,--- "el que compramos no vale "--the one we bought is no good.

Definitely a tricky subject !
Hope this helps.
Saludos.


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## virgilio

roanheads,
Surely not all that tricky! Your "adding to the complication is " el que " plus indicative,--- "el que compramos no vale "--the one we bought is no good" is surely overstating it a bit, wouldn't you say?
Simply a pair of straight-forward correlative clauses with none of the 'hidden agenda' that subjunctives threaten us Brits with.

Best wishes
Virgilio

outsider,
In view of your last post, may I put my earlier question once more. Are you certain that Spanish makes no distinction by accents between "él que (he who) and "el que"(the proposition that)?

Best wishes
Virgilio


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## Outsider

"Él que" would be a literal translation of "he who" (or "he that", more precisely). Not impossible in principle, but it seems like bad Spanish to me. Let's see if a native speaker can clear it for us.


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## geostan

Let's try this:

El que quiere el periódico está sentado allí. [In a sense, el que is short for el hombre que.] (known)
El que quiera un periódico, que levante la mano. (unknown)

él que for me is not possible. If anything, I would say él quien... and the context would have to very unusual.

As for  "may want" or "may wish," as a translation of the Spanish subjunctive, it may help Spanish learners at the outset, but as has been suggested by several informants, it is hardly a typical expression in actual usage, at least on this side of the Atlantic. The indefinite quality is clearly suggested by a word like "anyone, whoever."

El que IS often used for el hecho de que, when it is clear what is meant. On test papers I used to have a question like:

Cómo se explica el que (el hecho de que) .... + subjunctive to ask for an explanation of some thing or some event.

Just another voice!

Cheers!


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## NewdestinyX

virgilio said:


> outsider,
> In view of your last post, may I put my earlier question once more. Are you certain that Spanish makes no distinction by accents between "él que (he who) and "el que"(the proposition that)?
> 
> Best wishes
> Virgilio



Virgilio,
"Él que" is very strange to me from my experience and reading. A simple exact search in Google of it -- shows the 'él' as the object of a preposition like "de él que quiere" or "en ella que quiera", etc. But less than 10 instances of it starting a sentence as you've proposed. I agree with the others that say 'el que' is a shortened version of 'el hecho de que' and most often takes subjunctive though not in 100% of the cases. It can also mean 'the proposition that', which I think has been mentioned. And then of course its role as a relative pronoun.

Now, "He who" is different from "anyone that" -- though "he who" is also a stretch in English. But, in Spanish, I agree with the person that said: "Él quien" would translate "He who" and "Él quien" has much more support in Google searches to. What may have already been stated to you is this simple translation method to memorize:

*El que + indicative* (when starting a clause or sentence) = The one that../Anybody that.../Anyone who... 
*
El que + subjunctive* (when starting a clause or sentence) = The fact that.../Whoever... + verb projecting something yet unrealized ("_quien quiera que_" is also used for 'whoever')

I think those English translations really capture the difference between the ind and subj in the Spanish with 'el que'.


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## PowBiscuit

I love his question. Its a logic issue, and I always geek out on that type of issue. 
I find the same problem in another sentence:
Puedes decirme eso cuando me muera. But nobody lives forever, right? Why the subjunctive. Its only a matter of time.


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## NewdestinyX

PowBiscuit said:


> I love his question. Its a logic issue, and I always geek out on that type of issue.
> I find the same problem in another sentence:
> Puedes decirme eso cuando me muera. But nobody lives forever, right? Why the subjunctive. Its only a matter of time.



Well actually, with respect -- not really a logic issue. Again because the Subjunctive isn't really a matter of 'doubt or uncertainty' as is too often taught. The Subjunctive is a grammatical syntax issue that has to due with dependency as was the case in the origins of Latin and Vulgar Latin, the precursors of Spanish. In the above sentence, 'cuando' is a subordinator of time and when the rest of the clause refers to an event off in the future, subjunctive is always used. Why? Because the 'factualness' of the event expressed after the subordinator is 'dependent' upon other things. In this case the outwalking of future events. He is not dead yet nor has any news of death -- therefore 'cuando me muera' is the only semantically possible thing to utter.

The most concise definition of the Subjunctive I've come up with -- which piece meals together a few things from several good teachers in books and online here, and it fits every case of the Subjunctive is that:
* Subjunctive* is the Verb Mood used: for the unrealized/unrealizable; for the subjective, emotionally/in judgments; and for denials.

It's pretty hard to whittle it down further than that without leaving out large uses of the subjunctive. Can you infer from that definition that it is the mood of 'doubt and uncertainty'??-- yes -- and I understand why it's often taught that way - but for the English mind those words, doubt and uncertainty, have too many other applications that are indicative in the Spanish for it to be precise as a rule of thumb and it would have a student scratching their head as to why you have to say: El hecho de que el sol salga.." when we all know the sun will indeed rise.


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## geostan

PowBiscuit said:


> I love his question. Its a logic issue, and I always geek out on that type of issue.
> I find the same problem in another sentence:
> Puedes decirme eso cuando me muera. But nobody lives forever, right? Why the subjunctive. Its only a matter of time.



Often logic does play a role, but in this case, there is a simple rule, as I'm sure you know. Time conjunctions use a subjunctive when the subordinate action is incomplete at the time of the main verb. If one were to apply logic, one might say that the act of dying does not yet exist on the subordinate plane.

Cheers!


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## NewdestinyX

geostan said:


> If one were to apply logic, one might say that the act of dying does not yet exist on the subordinate plane.
> 
> Cheers!



*Love that!!*  And of course I concur with your explanation of Subordinators of Time.


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## Outsider

PowBiscuit said:


> I love his question. Its a logic issue, and I always geek out on that type of issue.
> I find the same problem in another sentence:
> Puedes decirme eso cuando me muera. But nobody lives forever, right? Why the subjunctive. Its only a matter of time.


It sounds perfectly logical to me. 

You use the subjunctive because the moment of death is unforeseeable. We all know we're going to die, but not _when_.

Well, anyway, this is one rationale. I won't deny that there are others. Another one is that _cuando_ always takes the present subjuntive when it refers to the future, but that means you need to memorize the conjunction.


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## NewdestinyX

Outsider said:


> but that means you need to memorize the conjunction.



In all my years of training others in Spanish I've never found a student who was completely successful in short order that didn't do some memorizing.. -- but that's a philosophical (yet very practical) statement.


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## YoPlatero

NewdestinyX said:


> but for the English mind those words, doubt and uncertainty, have too many applications as to be precise in a rule of thumb and would have a student scratching their head as to why you have to say: El hecho de que el sol salga.." when we all know the sun will indeed set go up. Y tampoco estés tan seguro,je,je


A ver si puedo explicar el subjuntivo de una manera que se entienda. Cuando decimos: El hecho de que el sol *salga *mañana pronto me importa poco porque me levanto tarde.
¿Por qué lleva subjuntivo a pesar de que es cierto que sabes que sale pronto?. Pues precisamente por eso. En esa frase no estás informando de que el *sol sale pronto por la mañana *sino que el que salga te importa poco. Que el sol sale ya se sabe. Curiosamente el subjuntivo no está en la realidad sino en la cabeza del hablante. He ahí la gracia del subjuntivo.
Otro ejemplo:
El hecho de que el mundo *está* quedandose sin energía va a suponer un problema mundial. <- Indicativo.
El hecho de que el mundo *esté* quedandose sin energía es ya un problema mundial. <- Subjuntivo.

Saludos amigos del español.


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## NewdestinyX

YoPlatero said:


> NewdestinyX said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> El hecho de que el sol salga.." when we all know the sun will indeed set.
> 
> 
> 
> El hecho de que el sol salga.." when we all know the sun will indeed set go up rise . Y tampoco estés tan seguro,je,je
Click to expand...


Es 'the sun rises' y 'the sun sets' y no 'the sun goes up'. Pero yo debería haberlo traducido correctamente la primera vez. Y gracias por la corrección.


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## roanheads

A most interesting thread which highlights the difficulties of the subjunctive, and also the study of which is so necessary, and can be so rewarding in the quest to use Spanish properly 
Saludos.


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