# Ukrainian: /в/



## tʃæz

Okay, I found a thread from 2007 that discussed this. However, there were some things very inconsistent to what I learned, some confusing phrasing, and the lots of discussion actually _in_ Ukrainian and Polish.

So, from my understanding, /в/ is pronounced [w] before back vowels and [v] before front vowels. What confuses me is [ ṷ] in the "syllable coda." I know a coda to be a consonant at the end of a syllable. I've never seen a spelling that goes c-в-c, where 'c' means consonant. For instance, a string like "твд." So then, does that mean that it is [ ṷ] after a vowel, before a consonant? That is the only way I can make sense of that, especially since the combining under circumflex stands for that specific vowel gliding off of a previous vowel.

I suppose I basically want to confirm my guess. Would the pronunciations go (and these aren't necessarily words, just random letters put together for the sole purpose of being examples):

сва  -- [swa]
сві  -- [svi]
сова - [sowa]
сові - [sovi]
савр - [saṷr]

I know that /мова/ is said [mowa].

And one more thing (since I've never seen a good clarification), when it's a labial dental, is it more like [ ʋ] or [v]? Wiki just says "labiodental," not "labiodental fricative" or "labiodental approximate."

I've been trying to teach myself purely from the internet. I don't have any teachers, and limited ways to actually hear it spoken (I don't know anyone who speaks Ukrainian.)

Edit: just in case whoever responds does quite know what I mean when stating the purpose of the combining under circumflex, an example in English is /cow/ sounding like [ka ʊ̭] (or in my dialect/accent, more like [kæ ʊ̭].)


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## Selyd

Три різні звуки:
вовк - округло (w)
вітер - не округло (v) 
втрата - трошки схоже на (f)
Як називається, взнаю у філологів.


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## sokol

tʃæz, your [w] and [ṷ] really are all but the same sound, only they "sound" different to your ears due to syllabic borders (the first one you wrote at a syllabic border, you don't interpret it as a vowel but as a consonant, but the other one - [ṷ] - you wrote between vowel and consonant, that is V[ṷ]C - in which case it is forming a diphthong with the preceding vowel.

Selyd hasn't commented on that particularly but as I understand you, Selyd, there are only those three pronunciations of Ukrainian /в/, right? (The third one of course being [f], not mentioned by tʃæz, in word-initial position if a consonant follows.).

And last but not least I've got a question of my own - what's /в/ pronounced like in word-final position, in words like прав (gen. pl. of право) - is this one too pronounced [f]?


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## tʃæz

Still being in the _very_ beginning of learning Ukrainian, I have a very small vocabulary. I didn't understand what Selyd was saying very well. So, I'm missed out on some of that bit of input. I understand the first word, три, "three." And I deduce that: вовк = [w], вітер = [v], and втрата = [f].



> tʃæz, your [w] and [ṷ] really are all but the same sound, only they  "sound" different to your ears due to syllabic borders (the first one  you wrote at a syllabic border, you don't interpret it as a vowel but as  a consonant, but the other one - [ṷ] - you wrote between vowel and  consonant, that is V[ṷ]C - in which case it is forming a diphthong with  the preceding vowel.


But, sokol, are you saying that in [wowk], the second [w] is like [j] in [vεʁsaj], that to the ear often sounds like [vεʁsaɪ]? It seems like a vowel, but is in fact a consonant?


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## Duya

tʃæz said:


> But, sokol, are you saying that in [wowk], the second [w] is like [j] in [vεʁsaj], that to the ear often sounds like [vεʁsaɪ]? It seems like a vowel, but is in fact a consonant?



Yes. Wikipedia has a nice overview in the article semivowel:  and [w] are basically identical sounds, but ear perceives them differently on phonemic level.


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## tʃæz

And when it is in the middle of two vowels, does the vowel that occurs before <в> affect it whatsoever? The primary word that I use for reference only has back vowels: мова [ mɔwɑ].


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## sokol

I can't answer your last question as I don't really "know" Ukrainian (I can only read it, after a fashion ); but as for Selyd's post in Ukrainian, you got the gist of it - there are three sounds for Ukrainian /в/, the three given by Selyd.


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## Selyd

Вітаю!
*вовк *вимовляється (wovk). в - звичайний звук "в" (v). У формуванні приймають участь губи і зуби.
*в* звучить як w. Його звучання можуть не помічати і думати, що звучить як v.
Такий звук типовий білоруській мові. Губи округлені, як для у.
В слові *мова* звук v, а не w.
*втрата *дійсно вимовляється інакше. Звук ф не властивий українській мові. Тому Пилип, а не Філіпп. Я до того, що *в *вимовляється з артикуляцією, як ф. Але це все ж інший звук. Не так, як в російській *второстепенний *(фтарастепенный).
Коли озвучуємо ф, то продуваємо повітря. При озвучуванні *втрата *- тремтіння.
Як зміг. Удачі!


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## tʃæz

So, "вовк" is [wovk], not [wowk]? And "мова" is said [mova], not [mowa]? Immediately on the Wiki page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_language , it shows украї́нська мо́ва as [ukrɑˈjınʲsʲkɑ ˈmɔwɑ].


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## Selyd

Ми обговорюємо звуки української мови. В літературі, на сторінках інтернету може наводитися *основний* звук. Звук конкретно може реалізовуватися як *алофон*, різновид звуку. Я ж говорю не як філолог,
а як носій мови. 
Як я відчуваю, звук *в *має три алофони.
1. вовк, вухо, вудка, звук
2. вітер, вечір, варта, вікно
3. втрата, вівтар, завше.
Як я відчуваю, звук *р (trill, дрижачий) *має два алофони.
1. річка, розмова, рядок, речення - trill мало
2. рак, рука, ромб, гриб, рюш - trill значне. Тут малі діти не дають дрижання (trill)
і вимовляють *лак*, *лука*.
Como en espanol - hablar, barril. rr - не так сильно в українській.
Може буде корисне.

Mod note - post copied from here, parts not relevant for this thread are set in grey.


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## Dani1967

Hi
 
Maybe I can clarify…
 
To state matters as simply as possible, “в” basically sounds like [v] (voiced labiodental fricative).
 
Before consonants, (and at the end of a word) however, it is pronounced [ ṷ]. This is an euphonic rule.
 
In fact, the preposition “в”, is often pronounced [ ṷ] (and spelled!) “у” before consonants.
 
Unlike in Russian, in Ukrainian, “в” is almost never devoiced to “f” (though, in some Eastern dialects, this is heard, especially before a voiceless consonant)
 
To sum up:

сва -- [sva]
сві -- [svi]
сова - [sova]
сові - [sovi]
савр - [saṷr]

The learned pronunciation of /мова/ is [mova], (though, in Western  Ukraine, or in casual speech, [moṷa] is not uncommon.)


I suggest you find some native Ukrainians, and listen to them speak! Or, listen to Ukrainian radio over the Internet!


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## Duya

Thanks Dani. Basically, that is also how it's in BCS, though we have [ʋ] (approximant) rather than [w] in coda position. 

That [mowa] thing really bugged me, because it wasn't obvious from Selyd's post that it is an exception. Thanks for clarification.


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## tʃæz

Okay, thanks, all. =] I think I'm about set when it comes to pronunciation, now. I've been casually practising when not swamped by school and life, and I think I'm very slowly (but surely!) becoming more comfortable with all of the sounds.


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