# Tit for tat



## Saoul

A fellow member in a previous post, used the expression: "Tit for tat".

I checked in the dictionary and it is the English equivalent of the Italian "Pan per focaccia/occhio per occhio".

I would like to know if it can be used in every sort of conversation (that tit thing, speaking with your boss, may result in being fired?), and if it has the same "revenge" nuance that "occhio per occhio" or "pan per focaccia" have in Italian.

Thank you in advance for your help.
Saoul


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## Auno

Tit for tat = measure for measure, like for like

No it wouldn't result in your being fired. Unless your boss were female and you were being pointedly ironic.

No it's not vengeful necessarily.


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## marionuovoaccount

Tit for tat e' un po' come....fa tanto se gli altri fanno tanto..
E se volessi dire occhio per occhio dente per dente?


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## london calling

marionuovoaccount said:


> *T*it for tat e' un po' come....fa tanto se gli altri fanno tanto..
> *E* se volessi dire occhio per occhio dente per dente?


The Biblical expression is "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth".

_To give someone tit for tat_ means basically the same thing, as the others pointed out. I agree with auno, it's not rude or sexist and it doesn't necessarily imply serious vendetta!

By the way, we also say: _to get one's own back on someone_ (vendicarsi, ma di nuovo non necessariamente in maniera cruenta!)


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## bis

london calling said:


> The Biblical expression is "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth".
> 
> _To give someone tit for tat_ means basically the same thing, as the others pointed out. I agree with auno, it's not rude or sexist and it doesn't necessarily imply serious vendetta!
> 
> By the way, we also say: _to get one's own back on someone_ (vendicarsi, ma di nuovo non necessariamente in maniera cruenta!)


Hi LC  I also heard to go tit for tat for example "I go tit for tat with anbody who's talkin this shit that shit" does the expression "tit for tat" require the verb to go? and how ca it be translated? my attempt: dò pan per focaccia/faccio occhio per occhio dente per dente con chiunque dice this shit that shit


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## london calling

bis said:


> Hi LC  I also heard to go tit for tat for example "I go tit for tat with anbody who's talkin this shit that shit" does the expression "tit for tat" require the verb to go? and how ca it be translated? my attempt: dò pan per focaccia/faccio occhio per occhio dente per dente con chiunque dice this shit that shit


Ciao Bis!

Molto onestamente, non l'ho mai sentito usare così: credo sia AE. Però credo tu abbia centrato il significato (comunque vorrei sentire qualche americano).


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## You little ripper!

This  might help make it a little clearer.
tit for tat answering each        insult with an equal reply talking this shit        that shit saying those bad things


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## london calling

Charles Costante said:


> This might help make it a little clearer.
> 
> *tit for tat *answering each insult with an equal reply *talking this shit that shit* saying those bad things


Well found!
Bis was right, then.


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## bis

Charles Costante said:


> This  might help make it a little clearer.
> 
> *tit for tat *answering each        insult with an equal reply *talking this shit        that shit* saying those bad things


how could I say talk this shit that shit talk on one's back or to speak evil of s.o.? and does tit for tat require the verb to go to say for example yesterday I gave tit for tat to that dude?


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## Seainterpreter

Scusate se intervengo adesso, ma tit for tat non corrisponde anche al nostro "do ut des"?
L'espressione è latina ma il significato non è necessariamente negativo. Non vuol dire occhio per occhio, bensì che io ti faccio un favore in cambio di un altro da parte tua.

Che ne pensate?


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## Paulfromitaly

Seainterpreter said:


> Scusate se intervengo adesso, ma tit for tat non corrisponde anche al nostro "do ut des"?
> L'espressione è latina ma il significato non è necessariamente negativo. Non vuol dire occhio per occhio, bensì che io ti faccio un favore in cambio di un altro da parte tua.
> 
> Che ne pensate?



No.
Tit for tat ha un chiaro senso di vendetta e non ha niente a che vedere con "do ut des".


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## Seainterpreter

Lo chiedevo perchè mi sono imbattuta in questo articolo della BBC sull'amicizia:

 Most friendships develop between people who are not family members or sexual partners, so friendship can't be explained on the basis of genetic or reproductive interests. Instead, evolutionary biologists have typically relied on a tit-for-tat process known as reciprocal altruism to explain friendship: you scratch my back, and I'll scratch yours.

In questo contesto lo interpreterei come un do ut des e non come un occhio per occhio, perchè l'idea che sta alla base dell'articolo è che scegliamo le nostre amicizie non in base alle nostre affinità bensì alla capacità di essere utili gli uni agli altri.
Grazie


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## King Crimson

Secondo me hai interpretato bene il senso del brano, l'autore effettivamente intende "do ut des" (oppure, "una mano lava l'altra"). Detto questo, penso che l'autore abbia usato in modo erroneo questa locuzione. Il senso di "tit for tat", come riportano tutti i dizionari che ho consultato e come sembra confermato anche dai madrelingua che hanno partecipato a questa discussione, è quello di "rappresaglia" o "vendetta" (come dice anche Paul).
Per una conferma definitiva, comunque, aspettiamo anche altri, soprattutto madrelingua...


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## Pat (√2)

Seainterpreter said:


> Most friendships develop between people who are not family members or sexual partners, so friendship can't be explained on the basis of genetic or reproductive interests. Instead, evolutionary biologists have typically relied on a tit-for-tat process known as reciprocal altruism to explain friendship: you scratch my back, and I'll scratch yours.


Come dice tal  John Young, "They call it a Tit for Tat process, but it is apparent that it is more complicated than simply Tit for Tat. [...] This provides a scientific foundation for systematic altruistic behavior". Il "tit-for-tat" nella teoria dei giochi.


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## rrose17

I found this
_Reciprocal altrusim works in animal communities where the cost to the benefactor in any transaction of food, mating rights, nesting or territory is less than the gains to the beneficiary. The theory also holds that the act of altruism should be reciprocated if the balance of needs reverse. Mechanisms to identify and punish "cheaters" who fail to reciprocate, in effect a form of *tit for tat*, are important to regulate reciprocal altruism._
To me, it's saying that there is a "do ut des" accord going on until one fails to reciprocate and then there is the vengeful "tit for tat". Tit for tat remains a you-hurt-me-I'll-hurt-you situation.


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## Seainterpreter

rrose17 said:


> I found this
> _Reciprocal altrusim works in animal communities where the cost to the benefactor in any transaction of food, mating rights, nesting or territory is less than the gains to the beneficiary. The theory also holds that the act of altruism should be reciprocated if the balance of needs reverse. Mechanisms to identify and punish "cheaters" who fail to reciprocate, in effect a form of *tit for tat*, are important to regulate reciprocal altruism._
> To me, it's saying that there is a "do ut des" accord going on until one fails to reciprocate and then there is the vengeful "tit for tat". Tit for tat remains a you-hurt-me-I'll-hurt-you situation.



Thank you! 
You are always so kind and helpful


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## Cavigliedasanto

Paulfromitaly said:


> No.
> Tit for tat ha un chiaro senso di vendetta e non ha niente a che vedere con "do ut des".



Non avevi ragione.


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## King Crimson

Cavigliedasanto said:


> Non avevi ragione.



E su cosa è basata questa tua affermazione perentoria, visto che in tutto il thread è stato confermato, anche dai madrelingua, che il senso è invece proprio quello?


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## ohbice

Altrove leggo che _tit for tat _può essere reso in italiano con pan per focaccia. Che il suo uso sia tutto e solo confinato nell'ambito della vendetta (e in generale della connotazione negativa) non lo direi, anche se certamente se tu mi dai una carezza rispondo con una carezza, ma se tu mi dai uno schiaffone non aspettarti che porga l'altra guancia.
p


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## King Crimson

london calling said:


> The Biblical expression is "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth".
> 
> _To give someone tit for tat_ means basically the same thing, as the others pointed out. I agree with auno, it's not rude or sexist and it doesn't necessarily imply serious vendetta!
> 
> By the way, we also say: _to get one's own back on someone_ (vendicarsi, ma di nuovo non necessariamente in maniera cruenta!)





You little ripper! said:


> This  might help make it a little clearer.
> 
> *tit for tat *answering each        insult with an equal reply *talking this shit        that shit* saying those bad things





rrose17 said:


> I found this
> Tit for tat remains a you-hurt-me-I'll-hurt-you situation.



Per favore, rileggetevi il thread. E comunque, anche in italiano, 'pan per focaccia' ha solo un significato di rappresaglia.


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## Cavigliedasanto

King Crimson said:


> E su cosa è basata questa tua affermazione perentoria, visto che in tutto il thread è stato confermato, anche dai madrelingua, che il senso è invece proprio quello?


Mi sembra, invece, che alcuni lo abbiano proprio inteso con un significato di scambio e non solo di semplice rappresaglia, tra l'altro basandosi su autorevoli fonti in inglese, come quella della BBC. 
Inoltre sto lavorando su un libro in cui l'espressione viene usata appunto nel senso di "do ut des" (vedi sotto):
_“Oh really?” I smile when I see the tension ease from his face and pain fade from
his eyes. “Is the only way to get you to talk, a trade? Tit for tat so to speak?”_
(Si parla di una coppia in cui l'uomo vorrebbe "barattare" la condivisione del proprio passato col possesso del corpo della donna.)


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## johngiovanni

Cavigliedasanto said:


> Mi sembra, invece, che alcuni lo abbiano proprio inteso con un significato di scambio


But your example is not the usual meaning, just a play on the word "tit". : "tette").  There was a similar play on the expression in an episode of _The Big Bang Theory.  _Certainly in the case of _TBBT_, and perhaps also in the context of your example, there is also a play on "tat" (robaccia).


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## Cavigliedasanto

johngiovanni said:


> But your example is not the usual meaning, just a play on the word "tit". : "tette").  There was a similar play on the expression in an episode of _The Big Bang Theory.  _Certainly in the case of _TBBT_, and perhaps also in the context here, there is also a play on "tat" (robaccia).


I get the play on the word "tit" (he wants to see her breasts), but it still has a meaning of trading in it. And what about the BBC example? And all of the examples you can find on Google when you enter "tit for tat do ut des"? You seem to overlook everything that goes against your interpretation and that just breaks my heart.


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## rrose17

If I may, heartbreak aside not sure why you're discounting native speakers take on this. The other day my wife said, about someone, that she's always doing tit-for-tat. Like when my wife offers her a gift, the other woman thinks "Damn now I have to got get her one, too." It's not exactly vengeance but it is certainly not positive either. I can't imagine using it to mean "You wash my back and I'll wash yours." There's always a little something not nice involved.


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## Cavigliedasanto

Well, as you can see it's halfway between my interpretation of the meaning and yours. The core of this figure of speech is that there's some kind of exchange involved.


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## Tegs

The meaning of this figure of speech, in all contexts, is that a negative action from one person/ animal will result in a negative counteraction from the other person/animal. 

Tit for tat exists as 1) an everyday phrase and also 2) a phrase used to describe a behaviour pattern in game theory and philosophy. The two meanings (technical and general) are connected. 

In every-day English = 
"The infliction of an injury or insult in return for one that one has suffered" tit - definition of tit in English from the Oxford dictionary
"an equivalent given in return (as for an injury) :  retaliation in kind" Definition of TIT FOR TAT
"actions done intentionally to punish other people because they have done something unpleasant to you" tit for tat Meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary

In game theory = 
Tit for tat is "a very simple program that requires that one be nice to others initially and thereafter requires that one treat others as one has been treated. If A is benevolent to B, then B is benevolent to A, and if* A is malicious to B, then B is malicious to A.*"

In philosophy =
Tit-for-tat "would promote and protect cooperative well-being and benevolent behavior amongst the participants while, at the same time, *discouraging and threatening the selfish and malicious behavior of others*. It promotes self-interested cooperation while *punishing cheating*. Presumably, in the long run, the good would thrive and the bad would not survive."

The two pieces of text above are quoted from _The Ascent of Man: A Philosophy of Human Nature _by James F. Harris, which you can find on Google Books (both quotes are from page 234) 

So, the technical usage came from the everyday usage, and in both, there is a sense that _doing something negative will result in a negative counteraction. _

In Italian books (all available on Google Books):

"Si chiamava Tit for Tat (Strategia del 'colpo su colpo' o dell''occhio per occhio e dente per dente') "
-da _Problem Solving nelle organizzazioni _scritto da Roberto Chiappi (pagina 160)

"Tit for Tat, cioè colpo su colpo"
-da _Episkepsi - il villagio armonioso_, scritto da Roberto Cipriani et al (pagina 167)

"...quella che gli studiosi di teori dei giochi chiamano strategia occhio per occhio (_tit-for-tat_) "
-da _La regolazione nella strategia d'impresa_ scritto da Paolo di Betta (pagina 187)

If you think about the context of the BBC article, the author says that friendship is based on tit-for-tat. A friendship only lasts as long as both people behave well, so this use of tit-for-tat makes sense. If one person were to behave badly, there would be a consequence, which is exactly what all those sources above say too.


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## Tembo441

"Tit for tat" in UK English is nearly always used to mean a *very small* act of retaliation for a very small act of misbehaviour.  It doesn't carry the same force as words like "revenge".
It originates from the phrase "tip for tap", meaning a light blow in return for a light blow, and was in use at least as early as 1500 and probably much earlier in Middle English.  It can mean verbal retaliation ("You call me a rude name, I'll call you a rude name"), or (light) physical blows, or damage to property.

In American English, it is sometimes used to describe more serious acts of revenge - and that usage occasionally spreads to UK English (particularly the more sensational newspaper stories - e.g. "Tit-for-tat killings"), but this is really a corruption of its proper meaning and (in my opinion) should be avoided.


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## johngiovanni

How do natives understand "rendere la pariglia"?  Treccani says: "Contraccambio, nella locuz. _rendere la p_., ricambiare lo stesso trattamento avuto (soprattutto quando si siano ricevuti torti, offese e sim.).
That sounds like our "tit for tat", but is it outdated?


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## Paulfromitaly

johngiovanni said:


> How do natives understand "rendere la pariglia"


It's not a common expression. I think quite a few people wouldn't even know what it means.


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## london calling

Paulfromitaly said:


> It's not a common expression. I think quite a few people wouldn't even know what it means.


I know what it means! Seriously, I've only ever read it and I'm sure it's very uncommon in speech these days, but do you really think your fellow Italians wouldn't understand it? Or maybe I should ask our friends in Solo italiano...


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## Paulfromitaly

london calling said:


> do you really think your fellow Italians wouldn't understand it?


I think most youngsters wouldn't know what pariglia means.
Bear in mind that WR users are not a representative sample as we're talking about people who have an interest in languages


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## Cavigliedasanto

Well, Tegs, I get what you say, but you're the one highlighting only the negative value of the expression. It works the other way round, too, as you can read from your (very interesting, by the way) sources. You give/do me something good, I'll treat you well. Therefore its meaning can sometimes - just sometimes - be translated in Italian as "do ut des" when it doesn't involve a punishment or an act of retaliation.


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