# per una sua trivialità



## opalfruit

Ciao!

C'e' qualcuno che possa aiutarmi con questa frase?

*Non si poteva neppur dire, li' per li', se fosse seria o musica leggera; pur ricordando certe canzoni popolari per una sua trivialita'*

Il mio tentativo:

He couldn't even say, on the spur of the moment, if it was _serial or light _music; though remembering certain popular songs _for their coarseness/vulgarity_ 

Grazie.


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## london calling

To be perfectly honest, I think it means triviality, quite simply. I can't say I've ever heard "trivialità" used to mean "coarseness".


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## AlabamaBoy

*se fosse seria o musica leggera;
*if it were serious or easy listening music


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## london calling

AlabamaBoy said:


> *se fosse seria o musica leggera;*
> if it were serious or easy listening music


Right!
What do you think of this as a (very loose) translation of the entire sentence?

_You (one) wouldn't even have called it serious or easy listening, although it did as a matter of fact bring to mind some popular songs because of its triviality/although its triviality did in fact remind you of some popular songs._

Un paio di domande per i native: 
1) non sarebbe meglio dire_ per la sua trivialità_ qui?
2) canzoni popolari: secondo voi stiamo parlando di canzoni popolari/canti popolari? O di canzoni "leggere" (la canzone italiana alla San Remo, per intenderci)?


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## elfa

Maybe instead of "triviality", something like "inconsequential nature"?_

He couldn't even say, right there and then, if it were serious music or easy listening, even though its __inconsequential nature __did remind me of certain popular songs._

@ rrose, I must admit I haven't heard of "easy listening + music" being put together in one phrase. To me, it would just be "easy listening".


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## london calling

elfa said:


> @ rrose, I must admit I haven't heard of "easy listening + music" being put together in one phrase.


Nobody here but me an' ma friend Alabama Boy....!


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## elfa

london calling said:


> Nobody here but me an' ma friend Alabama Boy....!



Oh, begging everybody and, most of all, Alabama Boy's pardon!


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## AlabamaBoy

Easy listening, by itself implies music, so I tend to agree with you.

PS I take being confused with my friend _rrose_ as a compliment.


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## niklavjus

london calling said:


> 1) non sarebbe meglio dire_ per la sua trivialità_ qui?
> 2) canzoni popolari: secondo voi stiamo parlando di canzoni popolari/canti popolari? O di canzoni "leggere" (la canzone italiana alla San Remo, per intenderci)?



1) In effetti avrei trovato più naturale "...una sua qual  trivialità...". Non è scontato che l'autore la ritenga del tutto  triviale.
2) Difficile dirlo. Entrambi i generi sono in qualche modo banali se rapportati alla musica cosid*d*etta cólta.

Che ne pensate di "_...erudite or easy listening music;..._"?


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## london calling

niklavjus said:


> 1) In effetti avrei trovato più naturale "...una sua qual trivialità...". Non è scontato che l'autore la ritenga del tutto triviale.
> 2) Difficile dirlo. Entrambi i generi sono in qualche modo banali se rapportati alla musica cosidetta cólta.
> 
> Che ne pensate di "_...erudite or easy listening music;..._"?


Thanks!

Però, come hanno detto gli amici sopra, si dice _easy listening_ (senza _music_). Erudite music va bene, visto che significa _serious music_, come ha suggerito AB.


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## niklavjus

Sì, avevo notato l'appunto di elfa, ma quel che mi interessava puntualizzare è l'aggettivo 'erudite': non sapevo che 'serious' ne fosse sinonimo, mentre invece 'easy listening music' l'ho già incontrato, anche se forse non è molto usato, e così strutturata la frase mi sembrava più aderente all'originale. Il suggerimento di AB mi sfugge, invece.

Ti ringrazio.


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## CPA

_You couldn't even tell, there and then, whether it was classical music or easy listening, although there was something inconsequential about it that brought to mind certain pop songs._


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## tranquilspaces

We've got some of the real masters of the English language on this thread, so I'm slightly reluctant to be a dissenting voice, but I'm not so convinced by "inconsequential" here. What do you guys think about _"there was something ordinary about it"? _


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## elfa

Sorry, but I'm really not familiar with "erudite music" at all (although I see it gets a mention in Wiki).


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## tranquilspaces

elfa said:


> Sorry, but I'm really not familiar with "erudite music" at all (although I see it gets a mention in Wiki).



Me neither.


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## cecil

tranquilspaces said:


> We've got some of the real masters of the English language on this thread, so I'm slightly reluctant to be a dissenting voice, but I'm not so convinced by "inconsequential" here. What do you guys think about _"there was something ordinary about it"? _


 
From CPA + substitution: _You couldn't even tell, there and then, whether it was classical music or easy listening, although there was something *ordinary* about it that brought to mind certain pop songs.  Very natural flow and choice of words. _


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## niklavjus

Don't be sorry about 'erudite music', I have learned something more.

I think that with the CPA's translation we have finally covered the whole sentence. In fact, to me, in that music there was just 'something' trivial remembering certain pop/folk songs.

I prefer stay on trivial(ity), rather than 'coarseness/vulgarity', because I think that it fits better with the plausible mild Italian acceptation for this context, that is the music, not images, behaviours or anything else. 
As for 'inconsequential' I have found various meanings (illogico, incoerente, insignificante) which, agreeing with tranquilspaces, I find to be unsuitable. Are there any other? The same I would say for 'ordinary' (comune, dozzinale, di cattivo gusto).


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## elfa

niklavjus said:


> As for 'inconsequential' I have found various meanings (illogico, incoerente, insignificante) which, agreeing with tranquilspaces, I find to be unsuitable.



"inconsenquential" is one synonym given for "trivial"; see here

Also, why "classical" music"? Surely, the idea is that "seria" is the opposite of "leggera" here? "Classical music" is a very specific genre - would Italians use this as a translation for "music seria"? Also, some classical music *is *very much so-called "easy listening".... Think _Fur Elise_, Vivaldi's Four Seasons, Grieg's Piano Concerto et al.


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## Giorgio Spizzi

Cari tutti,
bellissima discussione. Però devo dire che, a un certo punto, essa ha preso una strada a mio avviso errata, dando per scontato ciò che non lo è. I significati "not serious, not important, not valuable", che comunemente associamo alla parola inglese "trivial", sono sconosciuti all'italiano (inteso come "rappresentante di tutti gli italiani" e come "lingua parlata in Italia). "Triviale" in italiano significa, per ora almeno, soltanto "volgare, scurrile, sguaiato". [Typically an instance of false friends"].
Cari saluti.
GS


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## elfa

Giorgio Spizzi said:


> I significati "not serious, not important, not valuable", che comunemente associamo alla parola inglese "trivial", sono sconosciuti all'italiano (inteso come "rappresentante di tutti gli italiani" e come "lingua parlata in Italia). "Triviale" in italiano significa, per ora almeno, soltanto "volgare, scurrile, sguaiato". [Typically an instance of false friends"].



Grazie, Giorgio, della correzione. 

A questo punto, direi

_...there was something vulgar about it..._


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## london calling

Dal dizionario del Corriere qui :



*triviale* *[tri-vià-le]* *agg.*

*1* Volgare, grossolano: _persona t._; _espressioni t._
*2* non com. Banale
• sec. XVI
Propendo sempre per _banale-banalità_, visto il tipo di musica di cui si parla, ma ovviamente è una mia idea/sensazione.  E a proposito di _musica seria_, propendo per _serious music_ (non è solo la musica classica ad essere considerata "seria"). Sempre una mia idea, ragazzi. Bella discussione!

Edit. Mi correggo, a pensarci bene: potrebbe sì essere _trivialità _intesa come grettezza: (meschinità) narrow-mindedness, pettiness. 

But I can't think how on earth something like that could be fitted into the translation.


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## tranquilspaces

elfa said:


> Grazie, Giorgio, della correzione.
> 
> A questo punto, direi
> 
> _...there was something vulgar about it..._


 
 I would say vulgar and volgare teeter on the edge of false friendship too... although maybe it's just a cultural difference.

 If you say something is vulgar in English, it sounds like it's rather  shocking, indecent and perhaps offensive - wouldn't you say? Whereas  volgare in Italian seems more like coarse and uncultivated. (Obviously  we have that latter definition too, but it's not the first thing that comes to mind.)

At the risk of being stubbornly attached to "ordinary," it still seems right to me after seeing Giorgio's clarification. Seems like the tone of the original sentence is a little pretentious and dismissive, and I think calling a song "ordinary" captures that tone fairly well.


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## wonderment

opalfruit said:


> Non si poteva neppur dire, li' per li', se fosse seria o musica leggera; pur ricordando certe canzoni popolari per una sua trivialita'


trivialità: perhaps coarseness in the sense of lack of sophistication (~ senza complessità o sottigliezza)

My try: _You couldn’t even tell, then and there, if it was serious or pop music popular music, but it brought to mind certain folk songs because of its unsophistication._ 

----------------------
Edit add: 



london calling said:


> 2) canzoni popolari: secondo voi stiamo parlando di canzoni popolari/canti popolari? O di canzoni "leggere" (la canzone italiana alla San Remo, per intenderci)?





niklavjus said:


> 2) Difficile dirlo. Entrambi i generi sono in qualche modo banali se rapportati alla musica cosid*d*etta cólta.



Since _musica leggera_ can refer to either pop music or folk music, a better option for translation might be _popular music_ (which covers both pop music and easy listening). Hmm... this is trickier than I thought because of the different ways we divide musical genres, but it seems to me some distinction is being made between art/serious music for the cognoscenti and music that has a wide or popular appeal.


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## london calling

wonderment said:


> trivialità: perhaps coarseness in the sense of lack of sophistication. Yes, which is what I meant when I said "grettezza".
> 
> Since _musica leggera_ can refer to either pop music or folk music, a better option for translation might be _popular music._ Indeed!


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## Giorgio Spizzi

Scusatemi se intervengo ancora.
"Grettezza" <--- gretto = 1. eccessivamente tirato nello spendere; tirchio; 2. meschino, ristretto, spiritualmente limitato (Zingarelli)

Mi sembra che queste definizioni _non_ possano essere assimilate a quelle che ho trovato per "triviale" (Zingarelli). Posso essere tirchio ma assolutamente non volgare e viceversa.

Forse lon stava pensando a un sostantivo astratto derivato da un aggettivo che in inglese sarebbe "coarse, unsophisticated". Se è così, allora l'aggettivo italiano è _grezzo_ = di scarsa educazione, grossolano (Treccani). Purtroppo dalle mie parti si sente dire "grezzezza", ma questo sostantivo non è registrato. Dunque, non resta che accontentarsi di "grossolanità". 
Saluti a tutti.
GS


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## london calling

Giorgio Spizzi said:


> Forse lon stava pensando a un sostantivo astratto derivato da un aggettivo che in inglese sarebbe "coarse, unsophisticated". Non tanto _coarse_ quanto _unsophisticated_._ Volgare_ nel senso di dire "del volgo."


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## Giorgio Spizzi

Ho capito, lon.
Grazie.
GS


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## london calling

Giorgio Spizzi said:


> Ho capito, lon.
> Grazie.
> GS


A te!


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## cecil

tranquilspaces said:


> I would say vulgar and volgare teeter on the edge of false friendship too... although maybe it's just a cultural difference.
> 
> If you say something is vulgar in English, it sounds like it's rather shocking, indecent and perhaps offensive - wouldn't you say? Whereas volgare in Italian seems more like coarse and uncultivated. (Obviously we have that latter definition too, but it's not the first thing that comes to mind.)
> 
> At the risk of being stubbornly attached to "ordinary," it still seems right to me after seeing Giorgio's clarification. Seems like the tone of the original sentence is a little pretentious and dismissive, and I think calling a song "ordinary" captures that tone fairly well.


 
"Ordinary" is still my favorite, too, but "popular" would work very well. If one considers rap as music, even "vulgar" as we take it in AE would fit.


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## tranquilspaces

cecil said:


> "Ordinary" is still my favorite, too, but "popular" would work very well. If one considers rap as music, even "vulgar" as we take it in AE would fit.



True, if we throw rap music into the mix, vulgar works best of all! 

My reservation about "popular" is that it doesn't carry much of a derisive tone... it's neutral to positive, I'd say... and my impression from Giorgio is that _trivialità_ is meant as a mild insult here.


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## cecil

tranquilspaces said:


> True, if we throw rap music into the mix, vulgar works best of all!
> 
> My reservation about "popular" is that it doesn't carry much of a derisive tone... it's neutral to positive, I'd say... and my impression from Giorgio is that _trivialità_ is meant as a mild insult here.


 
Well, as Eco said, translators work at a loss, or something close to that.


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## niklavjus

elfa said:


> "inconsenquential" is one synonym given for "trivial"; see here


Sure, but as I tried to explain, since for certain words there are more than one meaning, one have to choose that more aderent to the context, so that a semantic equivalence be obtained. Then, I'm wonder, since 'inconsequential' and 'trivial' are, in some sense, synonym(ou)s, why not to stay on the etymological closest one?



elfa said:


> Also, why "classical" music"? ...


I agree with you about 'classical music'. About CPA'*s* translation what I wanted to point out was the adverb 'something', which was missing in the previous tranlsations.



Giorgio Spizzi said:


> ...devo dire che, a un certo punto, essa ha  preso una strada a mio avviso errata, dando per scontato ciò che non lo  è. I significati "not serious, not important, not valuable", che  comunemente associamo alla parola inglese "trivial", sono sconosciuti  all'italiano (inteso come "rappresentante di tutti gli italiani" e come  "lingua parlata in Italia). "Triviale" in italiano significa, per ora  almeno, soltanto "volgare, scurrile, sguaiato". [Typically an instance  of false friends"].



*T*hose you have mentioned are just the most obvious acceptations of the word, which are commonly applicated to people behaviors and other offending representations.
I think that the worst applicable meaning of the word 'triviale' to a music is 'popolaresca', 'incolta'. What distinguish it from serious music could be just a poor harmonical structure, a prevalence of ritm and melody etc. wich make it chatcy, easy to listen, something that makes people move. I could have a second thought about 'ordinary', but really I can't see how a music could be scurrile o indecente, nor I see how could be 'sguaiata'; particularly for a music that posses at least some valuableness that make suspect you that it could be serious music.



wonderment said:


> Since _musica leggera_ can refer to either pop music or folk music, a better option for translation might be _popular music_ (which covers both pop music and easy listening). Hmm...


Sure, but since I'am not who wrote that sentence, I can not say what he/she thougth...
Anyhow I totally agree with you about 'trivialità', and, yes, musical genres codification is a real mess.

Without further context I have nothing more to say.


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## wonderment

Thanks to a friend who forwarded the link, here’s the unabridged context. The complete sentence:

_Non si poteva neppur dire, lì per lì, se fosse seria o leggera; pur ricordando certe canzoni popolari per una sua trivialità, conteneva un amaro sprezzo, e sembrava quasi che scherzasse benché nel fondo si avvertisse una convinzione appassionata.
_
You couldn’t even tell, then and there, if it was serious or light (??); though something coarse (??) about it called to mind certain popular songs, it had bitter scorn and seemed jocular, but after all was said and done it revealed a passionate conviction.


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## niklavjus

Although I stay on my previous considerations about the word 'triviale' applied to a music, I must admit that I was wrong about 'trivial(ity)', it does not match the meaning here intended with the word 'trivialità'. The same I think about 'easy listening' related to 'leggera'. However I do not know how translate them.


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## niklavjus

I was sorry, having asked for context, to have not been able to translate that words, so, since nobody else seems to be interested in doing it, I made some search to try again. 
The difficulties in translating that sentence may dependend rather on the concepts implied in some of the terms the author used than on the terms itself in their common acceptations, either in Italian or English. It seems that Buzzati, the author, was versed in music, so he could have used the words with specific cognition, at least in some case. 
The tale 'Il musicista invidioso' (here is an e-text consistent with that reported by opalfruit) was first published in 1951, so I would exclude from a possible translation those later definitions as 'easy listening' and 'pop music'. 
Even though the term 'light music' seems to be not so familiar to somebody, I have found that it is regularly used as opposed to 'serious music', moreover it is a literal translation for 'musica leggera'. 

"_The so-called serious musician turned up his or her nose at light music in any medium for many understandable reasons. It was a way to give the serious musicians more importance. If you could be in a private club, you could feel superior. There were a lot of psycological, physiological, and in some case pathological reasons for these feelings._"
(Morton Gould, quote from _Elevator music: a surreal history of Muzak, easy-listening, and other moodsong_, by J. Lanza)

The foregoing quote seems to me particularly in topic: indeed envy may be psychopathological.

That's true that translators work at loss, as has been said, but on the other hand the success in comunicating what an author writes also relies on the comprehension ability of the reader. Though I knew about criticism addressed in the past to composers - later esteemed - because of their innovations, I had never heard their music be called 'trivial', nor I knew of the existence of the 'triviality' as a concept inherent the music per se; nevertheless it exists:
as for musica triviale have a look here (Guido Salvetti);
as for trivial music here and here (Carl Dahlhaus).

Having said that, I turn back and go with "_...light music; _[...]_ something trivial _[...]_ popular songs_...".

Rereading the thread I see that Giorgio had not said 'indecente', I must have made an involuntary association of ideas. I apologize for the oversight.


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## wonderment

Nik, you are a star! Thank you for taking the time and trouble—I learned something new.  So then, there is a contrast between serious and light music, classical and trivial, highbrow and lowbrow. Your translation and explanation make perfect sense to me, including the second half which I think is better than my own: "...it had a bitter scorn, and seemed nearly joking although in its depth you could feel a passionate conviction."


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## Gianfry

Wow!
36 post e uno solo dell'apri-thread, che si è bellamente disinteressato della sua creatura lasciando che si scatenasse l'inferno per quasi due settimane!
Come dire??? Fare i conti senza l'oste quando l'oste non ha voglia di fare i conti


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## niklavjus

wonderment said:


> Nik,...


You are welcome, wonderment. 
No trouble at all, just short interesting, though fragmentary, readings instructive for me too. 
Thanks to you for the rearrangement of my second half in a more natural (or perhaps simply 'correct') English.


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