# manges-en / penses-y (prononciation)



## James Bates

Could a native speaker tell me how to pronounce "Manges-en!" and "Penses-y!" please? Specifically, is the former pronounced as if it were "mange" followed by "zen"? Or do you add an extra "e" in between? Similarly, is the latter pronounced as if it were "pense" followed by "zy? Or is an "e" inserted in between?
If a native speaker could type out the correct pronunciation in IPA, I would be most grateful.


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## kanoe

i don't know ho to use IPA here, but you guessed right !


> "mange" followed by "zen", "pense" followed by "zy


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## James Bates

Hmm...I can imagine pronouncing "mange" followed by "zen", but I can't imagine pronouncing "pense" followed by "zi". Are you sure it's not "pense" followed by "si"? I mean, do you simply double the "s" sound in "pense" and add an "i" to it?


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## lahbayeuz

No, your first try was correct: it is "pense" followed by "zi" and not by "si".


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## Sebb

...you need to pronounce the "e" at the end of pense or mange before pronouncing the "zen" or "zi"

--> man-ge-zan
--> pen-sse-zi

in 3 syllables

(I'm not an expert in IPA so I won't try to give you an IPA version...)


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## James Bates

Thanks a million 
If it's not too much trouble, could you tell me if "Achètes-en!" and "Donnes-en!" are pronounced in three syllables too? Thanks again!


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## Sebb

Well, I would say that they are not as much pronounced as in the other examples.
I would say "achett'-zan" and "donn'-zan", so it's more a 3- and 2- syllables. And in the case of mange and pense, the middle syllables are somehow a little bit "avalées" ("swallowed"?)...

Another solution is to try other structures to avoid the pronunciation issues like:
Tu n'a qu'à en manger, y penser, en acheter, en donner...    ;o)


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## James Bates

Merci bien!


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## kanoe

one more thing :
we give you different answers because we have different accents...
(In Paris we'd never pronounce the "e" in manges-en or penses-y, in the South of France they might, and apparently in Swizerland they do..)


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## James Bates

Hmm...but how can you pronounce "pense" followed by "zi"? Wouldn't it become "pense si" then?


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## kanoe

the "s" almost becomes a second "z"...

penz-zi


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## lahbayeuz

kanoe said:


> one more thing :
> we give you different answers because we have different accents...
> (In Paris we'd never pronounce the "e" in manges-en or penses-y, in the South of France they might, and apparently in Swizerland they do..)


 
In Belgium, we don't pronounce it either...


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## Gil

L'impératif pense s'écrit sans "s".
Suivi de y, on ajoute un z pour l'euphonie.
Si Flaubert l'a écrit, ça doit être bon


> Pense-z-y (FLAUB., Corresp., 1867, p. 288



Certain prononceront le "e" final de "pense", d'autre pas


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## itka

[pãsə'zi] [mãʒə'zã] [aʃɛt'zã][don'zã] 

The sign [ɛ] (quite ugly on my IPA'site) means [è]

As it has been said, in south France, you could hear : [aʃɛtəzã] and [donəzã]
In the north of France (Paris) people try to pronounce [pãs'zi] and [mãʒ'zã] 
which is quite difficult so they produce something, with a little [ə] between the consonants.
These are local variants.


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## DearPrudence

James Bates said:


> Hmm...but how can you pronounce "pense" followed by "zi"? Wouldn't it become "pense si" then?


De l'entraînement, de l'entraînement 

I understand that it can sound difficult but it's the same as in a work like
"clothes". Imagine how hard it is for us to pronounce the "th" followed by the /z/ sound 

So, as said previously, personally I say
*"mãʒzã"* (manges-en - 2 syllables)
*"pãszi" *(penses-y - 2 syllables)


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## Outsider

James Bates said:


> Hmm...but how can you pronounce "pense" followed by "zi"? Wouldn't it become "pense si" then?


There's a little schwa between the /s/ and the /z/, at least in some regions of France. Remember also that intervocalic "s" is voiced to /z/, and in this case the second "s" counts as intervocalic in connected speech.


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## James Bates

Merci beaucoup


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## Gil

Outsider said:


> There's a little schwa between the /s/ and the /z/, at least in some regions of France. Remember also that intervocalic "s" is voiced to /z/, and in this case the second "s" counts as intervocalic in connected speech.


but there is no second "s"...


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## Outsider

There is one in _penses-y_, although it would have been clearer had I said "the _s_ at the end of the verb".


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## Gil

Outsider said:


> There is one in _penses-y_, although it would have been clearer had I said "the _s_ at the end of the verb".


Si c'est un impératif, il n'y a pas de "s" à la fin.  Si c'est autre chose, j'aimerais avoir plus de  contexte pour comprendre quelque chose.


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## viera

Pense à faire tes devoirs.
Pense aux pauvres.

While the rule is indeed that in the imperative 2nd person singular there is no s at the end, penses-y is an exception, because of euphony. Flaubert's Pense-z-y probably used to be correct, but I don't think we write it that way any more.


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## Gil

viera said:


> Pense à faire tes devoirs.
> Pense aux pauvres.
> 
> While the rule is indeed that in the imperative 2nd person singular there is no s at the end, penses-y is an exception, because of euphony. Flaubert's Pense-z-y probably used to be correct, but I don't think we write it that way any more.


J'ai vérifié et tu as raison.  Trouvé:


> La 2e p. du sing. de l’impératif des verbes en –er (+ assaillir, couvrir et les autres) prend un S final (prononcé Z) devant les pronoms EN ou Y NON suivis d’un infinitif. De même devant la préposition EN.
> -> Prêtes-y attention.
> -> Donnes-en. Donne-m'en.


Quant à "vas-y" et "va-t-en", je cherche l'explication.


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## lingogal

Bonjour, Gil. Si tu regardes bien la règle que tu as citée, l'explication y est:

La 2e p. du sing. de l’impératif des verbes en –er (+ assaillir, couvrir et les autres) prend un S final (prononcé Z) devant les pronoms EN ou Y NON suivis d’un infinitif. De même devant la préposition EN.
-> Prêtes-y attention.
-> Donnes-en. Donne-m'en. 			 		 	 	 Quant à "vas-y" et "va-t-en", je cherche l'explication.

Va-t'en parce qu'il n'y as pas de y ou en directement après, mais vas-y (avec  s) parce que c'est devant le pronom Y.


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## broglet

DearPrudence said:


> De l'entraînement, de l'entraînement
> 
> I understand that it can sound difficult but it's the same as in a work like
> "clothes". Imagine how hard it is for us to pronounce the "th" followed by the /z/ sound
> 
> So, as said previously, personally I say
> *"mãʒzã"* (manges-en - 2 syllables)
> *"pãszi" *(penses-y - 2 syllables)


To say pãszi (to distinguish it from pãsi) you will need to start vocalising the z part way through the pronunciation of the s. Without an intervening schwa [ə], as itka suggests, or a peculiarly extended sz, I find it difficult to imagine! Please explain more.


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## Fifi_grenadine

Well, personnally I don't pronounce "pensezi", but rather "penssszi", and the same for the other forms. I am from the East...


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## lahbayeuz

Yes it's an imperative at the second person singular, so there is a "s" at the end of the verb. There is a "s" in the title of the thread but then it was forgotten in the discussion.


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## Outsider

broglet said:


> To say pãszi (to distinguish it from pãsi) you will need to start vocalising the z part way through the pronunciation of the s. Without an intervening schwa [...], as itka suggests, or a peculiarly extended sz, I find it difficult to imagine!


It can be done.


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## Arn

About the ''clothes'' thing.  In american english at least you don't pronounce the ''th''.  It sounds more like close.


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## madolo

Gil said:


> Si c'est un impératif, il n'y a pas de "s" à la fin.  Si c'est autre chose, j'aimerais avoir plus de  contexte pour comprendre quelque chose.


effectivement. Mais on en ajoute un pour raison d'euphonie :
chante une chanson  VS chantes-en une


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