# Compelling truth



## Azbent

Me encuentro con este término en el siguiente contexto:

Beyond slogans and campaigns, is there a higher truth that guides you - a *higher compelling truth*?  There is only one "*highest compelling truth*" for any organization. When teams can embody their *highest compelling truth*, then they have a chance to do something special, something meaningful... 

¿Sería "una verdad indiscutible"? ¿"Pura verdad?

Aguardo su ayuda. 

Desde ya muchas gracias.


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## phantom2007

Azbent said:


> Me encuentro con este término en el siguiente contexto:
> 
> Beyond slogans and campaigns, is there a higher truth that guides you - a *higher compelling truth*?  There is only one "*highest compelling truth*" for any organization. When teams can embody their *highest compelling truth*, then they have a chance to do something special, something meaningful...
> 
> ¿Sería "una verdad indiscutible"? ¿"Pura verdad?
> 
> Aguardo su ayuda.
> 
> Desde ya muchas gracias.


Creo que la "verdad más convincente" podría ser. Pero existe un problema "filosófico". Puede haber más de una verdad?


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## polyglotwannabe

_La verdad que te lleva a hacer eso que haces_, más allá de lo que el slogan ó el lema te puede motivar a hacer, esa verdad _te obliga_, _te constringe_, _requiere de tí_ eso que haces. No hay fuerza que pueda contra ella.
Hey, I am waxing a little bit philosophical here or what?.
Hope it helps.


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## phantom2007

Por mi parte propongo "la Gran Verdad"
o tal vez: "la Gran Verdad, la Verdad con mayúsculas, esa que nos lleva a hacer eso que haces.." manteniendo al mayúscula de verdad en todo el párrafo. Y luego: "la Verdad Superior, la máxima y única Gran Verdad de toda organización"


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## Elixabete

polyglotwannabe said:


> _La verdad que te lleva a hacer eso que haces_, más allá de lo que el slogan ó el lema te puede motivar a hacer, esa verdad _te obliga_, _te constringe_, _requiere de tí_ eso que haces. No hay fuerza que pueda contra ella.
> Hey, I am waxing a little bit philosophical here or what?.
> Hope it helps.


" Te constriñe, te compele a actuar de una determinada manera"


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## Ciprianus

There is only one "*highest compelling truth*" for any organization.
Para cada organización solo existe una *máxima imperiosa verdad*.


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## polyglotwannabe

Hey, Thanks elixa, for the spelling check.!
What do you think of they way I put it. Is it ok like that?. Feel free to comment. My Spanish is rusty and not that good.


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## Ciprianus

A mi no me parece que sea la traducción de lo que dice en inglés.


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## polyglotwannabe

Cipri, Gracias por el comentario.Cuál sería la mejor propuesta?. *De algo sí estoy seguro*. The word '_compells_' means something that is peremptory, obligatory, that which *forces, urges, presses you to do something*. Based on that, what would be your best bet?.


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## Ciprianus

Está un poco más arriba mi traducción, compelling truth=imperiosa verdad.

*imperiosa*
4. adj. Fuerte e ineludible. _Sentimiento, deber imperioso. Ley imperiosa_.
5. adj. Necesario, urgente. _Tarea, necesidad imperiosa._
DLE


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## polyglotwannabe

Okey-doke, cipri. Thanks a lot. I like it.


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## polyglotwannabe

Para cada organización solo existe una *máxima imperiosa verdad*.
Just one question: Doesn't _maxima imperiosa_ have to be separated by a '_coma',_ or an _'and'_, or is it okay  like that?. Or would it be an '_e'_ separating those two words, one ending in a vowel and the other starting with a vowel?.
Thanks


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## Ciprianus

Está bien así, máxima califica a imperiosa verdad.
En inglés tampoco usa coma, en castellano es lo mismo.


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## polyglotwannabe

Oh, I see now, máxima is functioning as an adverb. Not as an adjective. In English if there are two adjectives, one after the other, the grammatical rule is that they ought to be separated  by a comma. But not so with adverbs followed by an adjective. So, in this case _máxima_ has to be an adverb and not an adjective, otherwise there has to be a comma between them. that is basic grammar English.
I just wanted to make sure you separate adjectives in English with a comma.

PS: Cipri, qualifiying what I said before, if the two adjectives before then noun qualifies as 'cumulative adjectives' then you don't have to put in a comma. That is the only way.
I think '*maxima imperiosa necesidad' qualifies as cumulative adjectives*, so, there is no need for a comma.


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## Amapolas

polyglotwannabe said:


> Oh, I see now, máxima is functioning as an adverb. Not as an adjective. In English if there are two adjectives, one after the other, the grammatical rule is that they ought to be separated  by a comma. But not so with adverbs followed by an adjective. So, in this case _máxima_ has to be an adverb and not an adjective, otherwise there has to be a comma between them. that is basic grammar English.
> I just wanted to make sure you separate adjectives in English with a comma.


I agree with Ciprianus about 'imperiosa' being a good option. 

However, I don't see _máxima _as an adverb. In my opinion we've got two adjectives here. They ought to be separated by a comma. However, in many cases it's customary to put one preceding and one following the noun. For example, _una imperiosa verdad máxima. _

Alternatively, how about _esencial _or _imprescindible?_ As in _una imprescindible verdad máxima, una máxima verdad esencial. _


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## polyglotwannabe

Amapola, I really don't know how the rules apply to Spanish. What I explained above was for English adjectives. You don't have to separate adjectives with a comma when they qualify as '*cumulative'*. An example will make this more clear: In the phrase “_exquisite custom houseboat_,” “custom” modifies “houseboat”—they become a unit—and then “exquisite” modifies “custom houseboat'', so there is no comma here. *Only in these type of cases.*
I do not know if the same applies for Spanish.
I also like '_imperiosa_', but then I  saw the two words_ 'maxima imperiosa_' (for me, two adjectives, together without the comma, and then I posted cipri about it. I thought it was a typo, but he replied there is no need for a comma there, and the same goes for English, that is why I cleared the English part to him and for future newcomers'.
I will leave the Spanish part of the grammar for you.

_._


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## polyglotwannabe

Cipri wrote: 'Para cada organización solo existe una *máxima imperiosa verdad*.'
 Amapolas might also confirm this, but the people that I talked to, are considered  extremely authorized to comment on this.
I have talked to some teachers of Spanish language, and showed them the thread, and they say the grammar is wrong.
For them, _if there are no commas separating the two adjectives_ (they have comfirmed what amapola said,* that 'máxima' is not an adverb*), then there should be the 'e'.
Like, 'Una maxima *e* imperiosa necesidad'.
They say moving one adjective after the noun will create lack of coherence and cohesion in the phrase. They don't advise it. It is something grammarians frown upon, unless the phrase really welcomes that perilous change.
*They all agree it is a good translation*, just need the grammar corrected.


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## Amapolas

Yes, either a comma or the conjuction, I agree.
I don't see the loss of coherence by placing the noun between the two adjectives. I'd think it's a pretty common way to deal with double adjectives. However, if grammarians frown upon it there must be a good reason, even if it escapes me.


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## polyglotwannabe

Amapola, they say it can be done, but there is a risk of the phrase losing clarity and sometimes it tends to confuse a little bit.
_'una imprescindible verdad máxima, una máxima verdad esencial'. 
I showed them your example ( I told them you were looking for alternatives only), but they did not like the alternatives proposed.
'*Una máxima e imprescindible verdad / una máxima y esencial verdad'* were their proposals.
They are not infallible, but these guys are heads of department in Spanish and English Grammar and hold several degrees in Spanish lit so I  really respect their opinion._


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## Ciprianus

polyglotwannabe said:


> ...then there should be the 'e'. Like, 'Una maxima *e* imperiosa necesidad'.



¿'Una maxima *e* imperiosa necesidad' no se traduce como "one *highest *and* compelling truth*", lo que es algo distinto a la frase original?.


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## Elcanario

Se me curre:
Una verdad última.
Última. 
5. Adj. Dicho de una cosa: que representa el fin o término a que deben dirigirse todas nuestras acciones y designios.
Un saludo


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## Amapolas

Hi, Polyglot. Still thinking about this, the first line of a poem by Rubén Darío suddenly came to mind: _Ínclitas razas ubérrimas_. But I thought maybe poetry is not the best kind of text to quote from. So I opened Borges's 'El jardín de los senderos que se bifurcan' at random, and on the first page I read I found this: ..._el llavero con las *comprometedoras *llaves *inútiles*_. Next, I opened 'Las ruinas circulares' and soon I read: _el *vasto *colegio *ilusorio*._ So I still think it's not unorthodox. Actually, I believe it's quite normal to do this. That's why I'm perplexed by your tearchers' remarks. It's not that I'm being antagonistic, just a bit puzzled.

Back to highest+compelling, I was thinking perhaps you could use just one word to avoid the double adjectves. Perhaps 'fundamental' or 'absoluta' might do the trick?

As I'm writing this, Elcanario is posting a reply, suggesting 'última'. This is a good option, I believe.


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## Elixabete

De acuerdo con Amapolas, no es raro poner un adjetivo delante del nombre y otro detrás, me parece más común decir " un maravilloso coche caro" que " un maravilloso y caro coche" o " un coche caro y maravilloso".
También me gusta " última".


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## polyglotwannabe

Yes, I agree, amapolas. I can not be the judge of that. I don't read anything in Spanish. I used to, many moons ago. I should, but I have to devote my little free time to some other languages, so, as Spanish comes to me from family and birth country, (I have the spnaish that I need to survive here in the jungle of NYC.I choose to read French, or Italian, some Portuguese, and as I am also learning German, some German articles and books as well. I respect the knowledge in Spanish and overall knowledge of all who post and response here.
All I  was told was, it makes for better clarity, cohesion, and coherence.
I suppose, according to what they said, that '_el llavero con las *comprometedoras *llaves *inútiles*' would be more clearly expressed as : 'las llaves comprometedoras e inútiles por demás ó Las compremetedoras e inútiles llaves. It is just their opinion. It is not set in concrete, though.
But then again, they are teachers, and that makes them a little bit finicky about expression so they are always looking for clarity in as much as possible, and, come to think of it, it is a fact that when you don't separate the adjectives the idea is conveyed in a  clearer way than when you leave the noun in the middle. Writers may do it for effect, or so they say, but they do not advise it to their students.
Just saying_


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## Elixabete

polyglotwannabe said:


> Yes, I agree, amapolas. I can not be the judge of that. I don't read anything in Spanish. I used to, many moons ago. I should, but I have to devote my little free time to some other languages, so, as Spanish comes to me from family and birth country, I choose to read French, or Italian, some Portuguese, and as I am also learning German, some german articles and books as well. I respect the knowlege in spanish and overall knowlege of all who post and response here.
> All I  was told was, it makes for better calrity and cohesion, and coherence when writers do not do that.
> I suppose, according to what they said, that '_el llavero con las *comprometedoras *llaves *inútiles*' would be more clearly expressed as : 'las llaves comprometedoras e inútiles por demás ó Las compremetedoras e inútiles llaves.
> But then again,they are teachers,and that makes them a little bit finicky about expression so they are always looking for clarity in as much as possible, and is a fact that these type of sentences read not so well.
> Just saying_


So  " mi sobrina tiene una larga melena dorada" lacks coherence, cohesion ,  doesn't read well and should be reworded " mi sobrina tiene una melena larga y dorada /una larga y dorada melena"?
That's ridiculous!


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## polyglotwannabe

Again, and last time I  say it friends. they say it makes for a clearer expression. That's all. You may disagree. It is ok.
So, in the final scheme of things, which is the right translation?. we have offered different alternatives, azbent should be going: are these guys crazy or what?.

_1.Creo que la "*verdad más convincente" *podría ser.

2.*La verdad que te lleva a hacer eso que haces*_, más allá de lo que el slogan ó el lema te puede motivar a hacer, esa verdad _te obliga_, _te constringe_, _requiere de tí_ eso que haces. No hay fuerza que pueda contra ella.
3.or mi parte propongo *"la Gran Verdad"*
o tal vez: "la Gran Verdad, la Verdad con mayúsculas, esa que nos lleva a hacer eso que haces.." manteniendo al mayúscula de verdad en todo el párrafo. Y luego: "la Verdad Superior, la máxima y única Gran Verdad de toda organización"
4.una *máxima imperiosa verdad*.
5.Una verdad última.

well, abzent, I think you have plenty of choice. Have at it my friend. Good luck with that


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## Elcanario

I'm sorry, I was in a hurry and I didn't read the whole thread. 
I also agree with Amapolas. It's completely normal and grammatical. 
Leaving all this aside the only thing that remains is to decide if we like it or not. 
I also have to say that if we talk about coherence and cohesion the only languages that I know that are coherent are computer ones and I'm not completely confident about that.
We have to deal with what we have and, of course, with our friend the context.
It's the writer who should try to find the best words for each context and hope the rest of the world agrees with him.
Un saludo


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## polyglotwannabe

A  for elcanario.
Except for this: 'I also have to say that if we talk about *coherence and cohesion the only languages that I know that are coherent are computer ones* and I'm not completely confident about that'. (So, this can be understood as you saying that people can talk the way they want to, and still make perfect sense?).
Don't ever say to a teacher of a language that cohesion and coherence are not important. You will be making a total ignoramus of yourself, and I believe up to this moment that you are far from that.
I understand you may be running to your countryfolk's help and support them, but for me the forum is not about that. It is about learning. So, I am sorry to say you dont know what you are talking about. There are hours upon hours devoted to coherence and cohesion in classrooms all over the world. How you can express yourself in a a clearer way, so, people don't have a hard time understanding what you say. I  could cite here millions of examples of incoherence and lack of cohesion, but it is a waste of time. why do you think there are rules about punctuation?. Or, is it ok not to put in commas, or semi colons ,or periods, can we  leave them out too, they might not be that important as coherence and cohesion doesn't exist.


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## Elixabete

I'm a language teacher myself, of course coherence and cohesion are important, I don't think Elcanario is saying they aren't. The sentences you deem incoherent and what not  are simple, everyday Spanish everybody understands.
Now that you mention that this forum is for learning, you could start by paying attention to what we are saying instead of accusing us of " running to our countryfolk's help".


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## Amapolas

Polyglot, you're taking Elcanario's words out of context and twisting them. Native speakers from different regions of the globe have given you their opinions, provided you with examples, even quoted from authors who were masters of the language. I think this thread has been exhausted.


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## Elcanario

Well, it's possible I didn't make myself clear considering that I'm not a native English speaker but I've read what I wrote again and I can't find where I said that cohesion and coherence aren't important. 
Anyway, what I really think is that we are digressing here from what is being discussed in this thread, that is, what Azbent wanted to know.
Un saludo


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## polyglotwannabe

Elixa, *nobody deemed any sentence incoherent.* Go back and read all posts. I asked teachers and they just said they would write it differently because for them it was clearer. Just that. And all started because I asked a question, I think it was to cipri about two adjectives that were not separated by a comma or a conjunction. The problem is, sometimes, we don't read what is written.
I highly respect elcanario, but read this and tell me if it is not minimizing coherence and cohesion in languages. C'mon, elixa, read it and let me know what you think. I just responded to this.

'_I also have to say that if we talk about coherence and cohesion_ *the only languages that I know that are coherent are computer ones* and I'm not completely confident about that'.
the only languages that elcanario know that are coherent and cohesive are the computer softwares?.
C'mon, Anybody can say something in a hurry, without reflecting. I have done it, and I have recognized I spoke too soon.
_I know elcanario may have wanted to say that what it really is important is the translation,_ not some much the other stuff, and quite agree, but I had to make sure he was not serious about that statement because I know, (and many people do), to be a fact that Language Arts, as a subject taught today in our schools focuses greatly on teaching our students to write cohesively and coherently.


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## polyglotwannabe

Elcananrio, I agree. We have digressed too far. That is why I wrote for abzent a summary of the responses to his post, and by the way, I would be choosing yours.
My love to you.


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## polyglotwannabe

Amapola, I'm not taking anybody's words out of context. I just read what posters write. If they can not express themselves eloquently in English is ok for me, my Spanish is not that good either, but don't go accusing me of twisting people's words or taking words out of context. If any words were taking out of context was the comment I relayed from the Grammar teachers. They would have written it differently. They didn't say it was incorrect. Besides, there were several examples given by you or elixa of the use of adjectives between a noun( usage by some *deep *writers, by the way). But I can't allow you to say that I am twisting people's words. You are wrong on  that account.


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## Elcanario

No they aren't wrong and yes, you did twist my words. I just tried to be polite but I guess some people have so little empathy that makes them deaf to anything outside themselves. It's ok for me.
You can go on with your trigger-happy wording if you like. I decided long time ago that I wouldn't answer to this kind of post anymore. You can do whatever you want.
Have a nice day!


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## polyglotwannabe

You have a nice day too. You are all quick to point out people's  mistakes, but doesn't  seem to like them pointed out to you. If you dish it you need to learn to take it my friend. 
Have a good one.


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## Azbent

Wow! Muchas gracias a todos por su ayuda


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