# un abito deve essere essenziale



## spero

un abito deve essere essenziale come una scultura classica.

At first I translated this literally:

A garment must be essential, like a classic sculpture.

But I'm not convinced essential works here. I don't like sober or unpretentious (as found in the other threads) either because there's "lika a classic sculpture" at the end.

Does anyone have any other ideas?

Thanks


----------



## elfa

Quintessential?


----------



## spero

What a wonderful solution!


----------



## tranquilspaces

Hi Spero - I find that _essenziale_ is used very often in situations where we would say "classic," though obviously you can't repeat that word... but another solution would be to find an alternative for classic in regards to the sculpture. ~ Shannon


----------



## spero

Yes, but the end of the sentence is "like a classic sculpture"....


----------



## tranquilspaces

Yes, see my edit - we crossed - sorry! How about timeless?

Maybe it's me, but quintessential sounds slightly odd to me in regards to an outfit unless there is a reference to a specific occasion ("the quintessential red carpet outfit").


----------



## elfa

tranquilspaces said:


> Yes, see my edit - we crossed - sorry! How about timeless?
> 
> Maybe it's me, but quintessential sounds slightly odd to me in regards to an outfit unless there is a reference to a specific occasion ("the quintessential red carpet outfit").



 I like "timeless"


----------



## Paulfromitaly

Timeless is cool, yet it doesn't mean essenziale 
Essenziale here means something that has all the fundamental characteristics a great garment must have, but nothing more than that, nothing superfluous.


----------



## You little ripper!

Reverso translates 'essenziale' with _simple_ in reference to style. Since we can't use _classic_ maybe _elegant_ would work.


----------



## panzona

_Essenziale_ in this context means "with just the right amount of what it's needed" (if you understand what I mean - maybe not ), not bare or scanty nor baroque or frilly

So, it's more "perfectly balanced" than "sober", "incospicuous" or even "timeless"... It's "basic", but in a positive sense... _Privo di ridondanze_... 

_Uffa_, I'm sure there's something in English that conveys all this, but I can't think of any word that'd fit... But that's what natives are for, isn't it? 


P.S. Sometimes copyrighters write words that are just "evocative" to their native fellow speakers, and they (the words) might be misused or even wrong, though trigger a certain feeling in the reader or convey "an atmosphere"... I mean, sometimes it's just an elegant, fluid _bla bla_...


EDIT: Sorry, a slow typer makes a post redundant!!  And... "maybe not" refers to my explanation skills, not your comprehension ones!!!!


----------



## You little ripper!

panzona said:


> _Essenziale_ in this context means "with just the right amount of what it's needed" (if you understand what I mean - maybe not ), not bare or scanty nor baroque or frilly
> 
> So, it's more "perfectly balanced" than "sober", "incospicuous" or even "timeless"... It's "basic", but in a positive sense... _Privo di ridondanze_...
> 
> _Uffa_, I'm sure there's something in English that conveys all this, but I can't think of any word that'd fit... But that's what natives are for, isn't it?


'Understated' might also work.


----------



## tranquilspaces

Paulfromitaly said:


> Timeless is cool, yet it doesn't mean  essenziale
> Essenziale here means something that has all the fundamental  characteristics a great garment must have, but nothing more than that,  nothing superfluous.



Hi Paul,

To me "timeless" is exactly what you have described above.  While the  fancy-fun details of clothing and interiors change constantly with the  cycles of fashion, certain simple and fundamental elements are essential  to good design. Those are the elements that are timeless, and this word  (especially in reference to clothing) always implies an elegant  simplicity.

Perhaps part of the confusion here is that I notice WR is translating  timeless as "eterno." That is truly a horrible translation. They are not  the same at all.

xo,
Shannon



Charles Costante said:


> 'Understated' might also work.



The only problem with understated is that it doesn't really work with  the classic statue analogy.

In my view the point of this sentence is that a great outfit and a great  piece of art contain elements so fundamental to good design that they  appeal to people regardless of what's happening in the fashion world at  the moment.

When I was at the Yves Saint Laurent exhibit at the DeYoung last year,  there were a number of sleek little dresses that I would be thrilled to  wear TONIGHT, even though they were designed in the 60s. Some of them  were not understated at all, and yet they did have a simplicity about  them. Even they were dramatic, they were neither too little nor too  much. 

Timeless. Classic. Essenziale. I honestly think they're all very similar  in this specific context.

xo,
Shannon


----------



## You little ripper!

tranquilspaces said:


> Some of them  were not understated at all, and yet they did have a simplicity about  them.


Shannon, I'm sorry but I can't understand how something can be 'not understated' and 'simple' at the same time. What do you mean by that exactly? 



tranquilspaces said:


> The only problem with understated is that  it doesn't really work with  the classic statue analogy.


I don't see why not. 

understated  statue

understated  * statue


----------



## tranquilspaces

Charles Costante said:


> Shannon, I'm sorry but I can't understand how something can be 'not understated' and 'simple' at the same time. What do you mean by that exactly?



Short, sleeveless, low-cut, column dress in bright red.

Simple. Not understated. 

re: statues, it's not that a statue can't be understated, it's that they weren't being described as understated in the sentence in question!


----------



## You little ripper!

tranquilspaces said:


> Short, sleeveless, low-cut, column dress in bright red.
> 
> Simple. Not understated.


Understood. 



> re: statues, it's not that a statue can't be understated, it's that they  weren't being described as understated in the sentence in question!


No, but the sentence says, 'A garment must be ........ like a classic sculpture', and a garment can be understated.

 'Classic' works for me but we both agree that it can't be used in that sentence, and I don't think _timeless_ works; it might imply _elegant simplicity_ but it doesn't actually mean that.


----------



## Curandera

I agree with Panzona, 

'essenziale' here means 'ridotto ai minimi termini'. 

I'd go for 'basic' or even 'essential'. 

Perhaps: purely/merely essential?


----------



## Veledan

How about _unembellished_? or _unadorned?_ Although I do prefer Charles' suggestion of _understated_. Whatever word is used, you're going to run into the contradiction that classical statues are often very flamboyant: they only look _essenziale_ because all the bright paint and gold leaf has peeled off them over the centuries


----------



## Blackman

Mi sfugge il perché non si possa tradurre essenziale con essential.


----------



## tranquilspaces

Blackman said:


> Mi sfugge il perché non si possa tradurre essenziale con essential.



Hi Blackman ~ It really doesn't sound right in English to say that  outfit should be essential. It sounds like you need it to stay warm, and then it doesn't make sense to be comparing it to a great work of art. ~ Shannon


----------



## Blackman

Fundamental, substantive, elementary?


----------



## tranquilspaces

It occurs to me that Blackman’s question really gets to the heart of the matter here.

The reason this word does not translate perfectly into English is that beauty is as essential to Italians and as water and oxygen! Beauty is simply _less essential_ Anglo-Saxon culture. (A key reason why many of us learned Italian!)

Last week, a native speaker of Italian complimented my table setting by calling it a _tavola essenziale_. The tabletop in question consisted of handmade orange pottery, lacquered gold chargers, bright orange placemats, sky-blue linens, Swarovski crystal champagne flutes and Saint-Louis crystal drinking glasses. 

Now in English, would you say such a tabletop display was somber? Of course not! Unadorned? No way. Understated? Hm... with all those bright colors and metallics? Certainly not the first word that comes to mind. The point was that it contained all the essential elements of a classic tabletop, without anything extra or extraneous, nicely executed. _Essenziale _somehow captures all of that in one word. 

Perhaps the best way to handle this in English would be with two words? An outfit should have the simple elegance of a classic statue.


----------



## Paulfromitaly

tranquilspaces said:


> Last week, a native speaker of Italian complimented my table setting by calling it a _tavola essenziale_. The tabletop in question consisted of handmade orange pottery, lacquered gold chargers, bright orange placemats, sky-blue linens, Swarovski crystal champagne flutes and Saint-Louis crystal drinking glasses.
> .



Your table setting is anything but "essenziale" 
Maybe he was trying to be sarcastic?


----------



## Blackman

Given what Shannon says, the closest concept to essenziale is simple, to me. Simple elegance works fine here.
E' superfluo precisare, per i nativi Italiani, che definire una tavola essenziale non ha nulla a che vedere con la qualità o l'aspetto cromatico dei singoli elementi che la compongono.


----------



## tranquilspaces

Paulfromitaly said:


> Your table setting is anything but  "essenziale"
> Maybe he was trying to be sarcastic?



I don't think so... and perhaps I should mention it actually looked much simpler  than it sounds in list form. 

In the design world, I often come across the word essenziale in  reference to things which are simple and well-crafted, even when they  are insanely expensive and definitely luxuries in the eyes of the average person. The English word essential is sometimes used  this way, but not nearly as often.


----------



## Paulfromitaly

tranquilspaces said:


> I don't think so... and perhaps I should mention it actually looked much simpler  than it sounds in list form.
> 
> In the design world, I often come across the word essenziale in  reference to things which are simple and well-crafted, even when they  are insanely expensive and definitely luxuries in the eyes of the average person. The English word essential is sometimes used  this way, but not nearly as often.


Mah..I'm beginning to wonder whether some people misuse the term "essenziale", at least in the architectural field.
I've just read a piece about Thom Mayne and his Federal Building in SF.
The journalist describes that building as "un edificio dalle linee essenziali.."
I'd never talk about that building as essenziale!


----------



## Blackman

Paul, senza offesa, e' un uso piu' che corretto dalle linee essenziali. Tra l'altro, niente e' più essenziale di una linea.


----------



## Paulfromitaly

Blackman said:


> Paul, senza offesa, e' un uso piu' che corretto dalle linee essenziali. Tra l'altro, niente e' più essenziale di una linea.


Mi riferivo a questo commento


> In the design world, I often come across the word *essenziale in   reference to things which are simple *and well-crafted



L'architettura di quel palazzo è tutt'altro che "simple"..


----------



## Blackman

Capisco il tuo dubbio, ma essenziale non significa semplice. Significa ANCHE semplice, e non sempre. Quel commento e' dovuto alla difficoltà di trovare un equivalente in Inglese, probabilmente.


----------



## underhouse

I looked up some examples on the internet and it seems to me that understated is used in the same way as "essenziale" in Italain:

an *understated dress* that would be appropriate for a business meeting...
This is a fabulously *understated dress* where the beauty is in its simplicity! The dress has no makers tags or labels but is clearly professionally made. *...*
"This beautiful elegant, *understated dress* is perfect for a Holiday Event. It flatters and adds just the right amount of sparkle for the *...*

The clean, *understated lines* typical of Giorgio Armani's aesthetic philosophy are immediately apparent on entering Via Sant'Andrea 9, where at the end of a *...*
The *understated lines* and the elegance of the shape mean this series can be installed in any part of the house, from the kitchen to the study, *...*
Using cast iron for the door and heavy gauge steel for the body, the Gazco Small Stockton gas stove combines simple, *understated lines* with Gazco's latest *...*
With smooth *understated lines*, Saponetta has been developed for its visual and tactile appeal. The Italian styling with rounded and bevelled edges and a *...*


----------



## Blackman

underhouse said:


> I looked up some examples on the internet and it seems to me that understated is used in the same way as "essenziale" in Italain:
> 
> an *understated dress* that would be appropriate for a business meeting...
> This is a fabulously *understated dress* where the beauty is in its simplicity! The dress has no makers tags or labels but is clearly professionally made. *...*
> "This beautiful elegant, *understated dress* is perfect for a Holiday Event. It flatters and adds just the right amount of sparkle for the *...*
> 
> The clean, *understated lines* typical of Giorgio Armani's aesthetic philosophy are immediately apparent on entering Via Sant'Andrea 9, where at the end of a *...*
> The *understated lines* and the elegance of the shape mean this series can be installed in any part of the house, from the kitchen to the study, *...*
> Using cast iron for the door and heavy gauge steel for the body, the Gazco Small Stockton gas stove combines simple, *understated lines* with Gazco's latest *...*
> With smooth *understated lines*, Saponetta has been developed for its visual and tactile appeal. The Italian styling with rounded and bevelled edges and a *...*


 
Giorgio Armani's aestethic philosophy is exactly what an Italian would describe as essenziale. But this doesn't mean understated is the right translation. Clean, simple, understated, unadorned, elegant, minimal and other concepts, all gather in essenziale.


----------



## Paulfromitaly

This is the OED entry for UNDERSTATED:


> *b.* Of clothes,  appearance, etc.: unemphasized, modest; designed not to attract undue  attention



and this is what I believe essenziale means in this context:


> *3.* agg. Conciso,  semplice, ridotto al minimo: _stile  essenziale._



I still can't make up my mind as to whether those 2 adjectives can have the same meaning.


----------



## tranquilspaces

My feeling is that understated works extremely well as a translation of _ essenziale _in the vast majority of cases, but falls flat in this  particular sentence: 

 "An outfit should be understated like a classic sculpture." 

To me that  is a much weaker analogy than the Italian version. While some modern  sculptures are in fact *quite*  understated, most classical ones are anything but. 

Therefore, for this PARTICULAR sentence (and not as the perfect  translation for  _essenziale_ in general, mind you) I'm sticking with my guns on  timeless here. To my ear, it is the  only word that captures the overall feeling of the original sentence and  renders a beautiful, natural-sounding sentence in  English.

xo
Shannon

PS: Although I would say simple and elegant also sounds good... and it is closer to the original...


----------



## You little ripper!

> This is the OED entry for UNDERSTATED:
> 
> *b.* Of clothes,  appearance, etc.: unemphasized, modest;  designed not to attract undue  attention





> and this is what I believe essenziale means in this context:
> 
> *3.* agg. Conciso,  semplice, ridotto al minimo: _stile   essenziale._


These are some of the synonyms the free dictionary has for 'understated'.

_aesthetic, artistic, basic, classic, excellent, in good taste, low-key, of choice, of quality, pleasing,
   pure, restrained, simple, subdued, subtle, tasteful,
   unadorned, unaffected, unembellished, unobtrusive, well-chosen_


----------



## Blackman

*essenziale *


*




*
*agg. m. e f. [pl. -i] 1 che costituisce l’essenza di una cosa; sostanziale, fondamentale: il punto essenziale della questione | necessario, indispensabile: la tua presenza è essenziale 2 costituito da un’essenza: olio essenziale 3 ( med.) si dice di malattia o disturbo che insorge primitivamente, cioè non come conseguenza di altre malattie o disturbi; idiopatico: ipertensione essenziale ¨ n.m. [pl. -i] la cosa più importante: l’essenziale è che non ti sia fatto male | ciò che costituisce l’essenza delle cose: badare all’essenziale ? essenzialmente avv. in modo essenziale | sostanzialmente, fondamentalmente *

*¶ Dal lat. tardo essentiale(m), deriv. di essentia ‘essenza’.*

*Questa è la definizione di essenziale che ho trovato praticamente su ogni dizionario ( che ho consultato ovviamente, non tutti i dizionari...).*

*Ora, quanta fantasia ci vuole per tradurre essenziale con understated?*


----------



## You little ripper!

Because it's not a common analogy, maybe we need more context to know exactly what the author means by the word 'essenziale' when compared to a classic statue.


----------



## tranquilspaces

Sigh.... After reading that definition, I think I'm in love with the word essenziale. I want to marry it.


----------



## underhouse

Blackman, non capisco il senso del tuo intervento: stiamo cercando di tradurre "essenziale" all'interno di un contesto e tu ci propini tutti i significati tranne quello che ci interessa...Che ci importa di "essenziale" in ambito medico? Boh...


----------



## Blackman

Lo tolgo se ti da fastidio. E' la definizione completa che ne da un dizionario, altri si fermano prima. Il senso del mio intervento è tutto li. Il tuo, piuttosto, qual'è: cogliere il senso di essenziale per poi tradurlo al meglio o trovare una soluzione a tutti i costi?


----------



## You little ripper!

I checked out the word 'essential' in Dictionary.com and here are some of the synonyms it has listed that could possibly work in relation to both a garment and a statue. I'm not saying they all fit, so don't shoot me Shannon (I'm wearing my bullet-proof vest just to be on the safe side ):

_simple, unadorned, basic, modest, unembellished, unornamented_

I really do think we need more context.


----------



## underhouse

Blackman said:


> Lo tolgo se ti dà fastidio. E' la definizione completa che ne dà un dizionario, altri si fermano prima. Il senso del mio intervento è tutto lì. Il tuo, piuttosto, qual è: cogliere il senso di essenziale per poi tradurlo al meglio o trovare una soluzione a tutti i costi?


----------



## Blackman

Ti consiglio di verificare prima di correggere qual'è. Esistono fior di linguisti che ti smentirebbero.


----------



## You little ripper!

What about, _A garment must have the simplicity of a classic statue?

_'Simple' is how Reverso translates it (as I said in Post 9).


----------



## tranquilspaces

Charles Costante said:


> What about, _A garment must have the simplicity of a classic statue?
> 
> _'Simple' is how Reverso translates it (as I said in Post 9).



This is classic WR, isn't it? The person who started this thread has no doubt already made a choice and moved on and we're all still agonizing over it...  I like your sentence though!


----------



## You little ripper!

> I like your sentence though!


It's interesting how using a different form of a word can change the sentence completely. It didn't work using 'simple'.


----------



## tranquilspaces

Charles Costante said:


> It's interesting how using a different form of a word can change the sentence completely. It didn't work using 'simple'.



Yes, I was actually thinking about that earlier with the word essential itself. I frequently hear the noun "essentials" being used with the general flavor of _essenziale_. The phrase "wardrobe essentials" sounds rather nice, but if you say "a wardrobe should be essential" that sounds weird.

Ah... the little things you can't get from a dictionary.


----------

