# Older sister OR Elder sister



## Jasmine Anderson

Which is right when introducing a person. "She is my Older sister" Or "She is my Elder sister" ?


Somebody please clarify.
Thank you very much


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## owlman5

I'd use "older sister", Jasmine.  I rarely hear people use "elder" these days.


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## Jasmine Anderson

Thank you owlman .


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## rhitagawr

I say _elder_. _Older_ doesn't sound right to me.


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## suzi br

So you can deduce from this that it is not important!  Either will do for most people, who will scarcely notice the vowel sound you start with.


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## Thomas Tompion

I wonder if I'm alone in using _*e*lder sister_ to mean the one older than another of my sisters, and _*o*lder sister_ to mean a sister older than me.

Thus if I was the oldest child in the family, I could have an elder sister, but not an older sister.


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## Edinburgher

Ngram suggests that _elder_ is relatively rare in AE now, but in BE is still about 50-50 with _older_, and declining.


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## Thomas Tompion

Edinburgher said:


> Ngram suggests that _elder_ is relatively rare in AE now, but in BE is still about 50-50 with _older_, and declining.


This would be entirely consistent with their having the different meanings I'm positing.


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## owlman5

Thomas Tompion said:


> I wonder if I'm alone in using _*e*lder sister_ to mean the one older than another of my sisters, and _*o*lder sister_ to mean a sister older than me.
> 
> Thus if I was the oldest child in the family, I could have an elder sister, but not an older sister.


I'd use "oldest" exactly as you use "elder", TT.  Being the oldest child in the family, I could have an oldest sister, but not an older sister.  To tell you the truth, I think "elder" sounds better than "oldest" does, but it doesn't belong to my ordinary vocabulary.


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## suzi br

owlman5 said:


> I'd use "oldest" exactly as you use "elder", TT.  Being the oldest child in the family, I could have an oldest sister, but not an older sister.



This is confusing. If you are the oldest you cannot have *anyone *older than you!


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## owlman5

suzi br said:


> This is confusing. If you are the oldest you cannot have *anyone *older than you!


If she's my "oldest sister", she doesn't have to be older than me, does  she?  It should be enough that she is the oldest of my sisters.  In this family, I'd still be the oldest child, however.


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## Thomas Tompion

suzi br said:


> This is confusing. If you are the oldest you cannot have *anyone *older than you!


No, Suzi, indeed not, but you can have two sisters, one of whom is older than the other.  For me one's elder sister is the sister who was born first (before the other sister).  She may, of course, have been born after you, and so be younger than you.

The WR dictionary hints that I'm not alone in making this distinction: 

older: having lived or existed longer;
elder: born earlier; senior.

It goes on to complicate the issue, of course.  Obviously we are dealing with a comparison, so it's important to know with what or whom the comparison is being drawn.

I know that people don't universally follow my practice, so I'd expect to be helped by context, ie. by what I thought my audience knew about the circumstances.


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## entangledbank

An ingenious distinction, possibly even a useful one, but I don't think many English-speakers would do it like that. Certainly, the elder or older of my sisters is older than the other, whatever their and my ages, but to me that doesn't make her my elder or older sister.


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## suzi br

owlman5 said:


> If she's my "oldest sister", she doesn't have to be older than me, does  she?  It should be enough that she is the oldest of my sisters.  In this family, I'd still be the oldest child, however.



Ah yes, I see why I am confused, you are a MAN! I am not. 


None of this is really helping the OP, for whose benefit I repeat the notion that it really doesn't matter which you use


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## Thomas Tompion

owlman5 said:


> I'd use "oldest" exactly as you use "elder", TT.  Being the oldest child in the family, I could have an oldest sister, but not an older sister.  To tell you the truth, I think "elder" sounds better than "oldest" does, but it doesn't belong to my ordinary vocabulary.


That's interesting, Owlman.

Would you even talk of your oldest sister, to refer to the older of your two sisters, both of whom are younger than you?

This is beginning to sound like the Marx Brothers' sketch about _the party of the first part_.  It's easily findable on YouTube but I don't think I'm allowed to link it directly.  If you feel like a good laugh, it's worth it.


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## owlman5

As long as I was thinking of my two sisters as a group that didn't include me, then I'd use "older" with no hesitation.  Once I became part of the group, I really couldn't speak of my "older sister" unless she was older than me.  I'll make an effort to remember your recommendation, TT.  I can always use a good laugh.


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## pob14

By coincidence, my wife's family had this exact conversation at Thanksgiving. 

My wife is the oldest of three sisters.  The discussion was whether she could call Sister 1 -  the middle of the three - her "older sister."  She's _not_, because she's not older than my wife, but she_ is_, because she's the older of my wife's two sisters.  

My wife, being perhaps a bit of a language pedant, cannot call Sister 1 her "oldest" sister, because she reserves the superlative for a situation where there is more than two things being compared.

We never did reach a satisfactory resolution.

(And, to return to the topic, if any one of the three were to be referred to as "elder," whether by one of the sisters or anyone else, the speaker would receive a face full of whatever they were drinking at the time.)


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## Packard

Thomas Tompion said:


> I wonder if I'm alone in using _*e*lder sister_ to mean the one older than another of my sisters, and _*o*lder sister_ to mean a sister older than me.
> 
> Thus if I was the oldest child in the family, I could have an elder sister, but not an older sister.



If someone was older than me I would refer to him as "my elder".  

In my family with three siblings, my sister was the oldest; I was the older brother; Richard was my younger brother.  My sister was my elder, but I would never have occasion to say that.  I would normally respond to the question of "do you have brothers and sisters" by saying, "One brother and one sister; my sister is older than me and my brother is younger".


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## mr cat

So no eldest sister?


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## Packard

mr cat said:


> So no eldest sister?



With just one sister and one brother, my sister was the eldest sibling, but my older sister.


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## JulianStuart

Thomas Tompion said:


> That's interesting, Owlman.
> 
> Would you even talk of your oldest sister, to refer to the older of your two sisters, both of whom are younger than you?
> 
> This is beginning to sound like the Marx Brothers' sketch about _the party of the first part_.  It's easily findable on YouTube but I don't think I'm allowed to link it directly.  If you feel like a good laugh, it's worth it.


That sketch does have a seasonal component - "I don'ta believe in a Sanity Claus"


Packard said:


> With just one sister and one brother, my sister was the eldest sibling, but my older sister.


 This is confusing (the logic rather than the use of English!). Here the "older" in "my older sister" means that the sister is older than the _speaker_.  However, "my oldest" sister would be with respect to the ages of the other sisters and _not_ the speaker.  A speaker aiming for clarity would probably say "the oldest of my 7 sisters"


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## JulianStuart

It's all up to codtext - I'b sorry if I had a code whed I wrote that

(I have corrected the typo you quoted)

And in any case, (just for the sake of clarification for those still confused) I was referring to Packard's situation which I had I quoted.


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## ALEX1981X

Sorry guys does "he's my older sister" means that my sister is older than me *in particular* but she's not the oldest among the sisters in the family,if any?

Supposing one guy has two sisters (Ana and Paula for instance)

Supposing that Ana is the oldest (or the eldest)

Paula is older *than me* but not older than Ana .

Can I say just that "Paula is my older sister"?


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## Thomas Tompion

ALEX1981X said:


> Sorry guys does "he's my older sister" means that my sister is older than me *in particular* but she's not the oldest among the sisters in the family,if any?[...]


No, it means she's had a sex change.

I'd say the answer to your second question, Alex, is Yes.  _My older sister_ for me means my sister who is older than me, when I have only one sister in this category.

The thread suggests that native speakers don't all use the same conventions about this.  This colours how they would answer the first question you intended, the one with the misprint.


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## ALEX1981X

Thomas Tompion said:


> No, it means she's had a sex change.
> 
> I'd say the answer to your second question, Alex, is Yes.  _My older sister_ for me means my sister who is older than me, when I have only one sister in this category.
> 
> The thread suggests that native speakers don't all use the same conventions about this.  This colours how they would answer the first question you intended, the one with the misprint.



Yes thanks it was a misprint Thomas. So if I had had two sisters instead of one, what would have I had to say regarding my sister Paula?


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## Thomas Tompion

ALEX1981X said:


> Yes thanks it was a misprint Thomas. So if I had had two sisters instead of one, what would have I had to say regarding my sister Paula?


I would say _she was the younger of my two elder sisters_, but other natives may use a more periphrastic formula.


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## Ivan_I

pob14 said:


> By coincidence, my wife's family had this exact conversation at Thanksgiving.
> 
> My wife is the oldest of three sisters.  The discussion was whether she could call Sister 1 -  the middle of the three - her "older sister."  She's _not_, because she's not older than my wife, but she_ is_, because she's the older of my wife's two sisters.


How many sister are there including your wife? 4?


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## Edinburgher

Ivan_I said:


> How many sister are there including your wife? 4?


Which part of "My wife is the oldest of three sisters" and "she's the older of my wife's two sisters" gives you the impression that there could be four? It is clear that there are three.


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## Ivan_I

My wife is the oldest of three sisters. The discussion was whether she could call Sister 1 - the middle of the three - her "older sister." She's _not_, because she's not older than my wife, but *she *(MIDDLE SISTER?)_ is_, because *she's (MIDDLE SISTER?) *the older of my wife's two sisters.

You wife+the middle sister plus your wife's two sisters.


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## Loob

There are only three sisters in pob's story.


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## Ivan_I

I am not saying the opposite, I was trying to show how I had thought there were 4. I am still confused with these SHES.


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## Edinburgher

Ivan_I said:


> You wife+the middle sister plus your wife's two sisters.


No.  The wife does not have three sisters, she is one of three sisters, so she has two sisters.  Therefore the "middle one" is one of the two sisters that she has, or one of the three sisters that there are.

He is talking about his wife's family.  There are three girls in the family; they are all sisters to each other, and to any brothers there might be.  Let's call them A, B, and C.  A is the oldest, B is the middle one, C is the youngest.

Pob's wife is A.  "Sister 1" is B.

The discussion was about whether A can call B her "older sister".  The idea was that the question can be answered both "yes" (because B is older than C) and "no" (because B is not older than A).

You are correct that in the sentence "She's _not_, because she's not older than my wife, but *she *(MIDDLE SISTER?)_ is_, because *she's (MIDDLE SISTER?) *the older of my wife's two sisters."  All four occurrences of the word "she" refer to the middle sister (who is "sister 1").


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## Ivan_I

I suggest the term "half older sister". Just kidding.


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## pob14

Sorry I was gone for this conversation, but yes, I was talking about three women total:  my wife L, the oldest; S, the middle sister and the “she” from Post 17; and R, the youngest. 

Sorry for any confusion.


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## NewAmerica

rhitagawr said:


> I say _elder_. _Older_ doesn't sound right to me.



My high school English teacher told me "elder sister" when I asked him how to distinguish sisters with different age.


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## Ivan_I

pob14 said:


> By coincidence, my wife's family had this exact conversation at Thanksgiving.
> 
> My wife is the oldest of three sisters.  The discussion was whether she could call Sister 1 -  the middle of the three - her "older sister."  She's _not_, because she's not older than my wife, but she_ is_, because she's the older of my wife's two sisters.


Having been thinking about the issue it seems to me that the answer is simple.
The middle sister is a younger sister of pob's wife. So, this *"but she is, because she's the older of my wife's two sisters."* seems a false premise to me.


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## london calling

Ivan_I said:


> So, this *"but she is, because she's the older of my wife's two sisters."* seems a false premise to me.


I couldn't say "she's the older of my wife's two sisters" either. I'd have to say 'elder'. I agree with the distinction TT made above:


Thomas Tompion said:


> I wonder if I'm alone in using _*e*lder sister_ to mean the one older than another of my sisters, and _*o*lder sister_ to mean a sister older than me.
> 
> Thus if I was the oldest child in the family, I could have an elder sister, but not an older sister.


My father is the eldest of seven: he has three younger brothers and three younger sisters. The elder of his three sisters is four years younger than him.


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## Ivan_I

london calling said:


> I couldn't say "she's the older of my wife's two sisters" either. I'd have to say 'elder'. I agree with the distinction TT made above:


Having been reading on the issue I have come to conclusion that it's a matter of personal taste.



london calling said:


> My father is the eldest of seven: he has three younger brothers and three younger sisters. The elder of his three sisters is four years younger than him.


Why elder? Why not the eldest?


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## london calling

See this thread:

the elder/eldest of two sons


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## Roymalika

Edinburgher said:


> Ngram suggests that _elder_ is relatively rare in AE now, but in BE is still about 50-50 with _older_, and declining.


Hi Edinburgher,
1) John is older than me.
2) John is elder than me.
May I ask whether sentence 2 is correct and means the same as 1?

Situation: 
John is 30 years old. I am 25 years old.


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## heypresto

I think I've only seen 'elder' in contexts like:

John is my elder brother.
John is the elder of the two brothers.

I'm pretty sure it's not a synonym for 'older' when 'older' means 'of a greater age' as in your sentence #1.


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## kentix

John is my big brother.


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## Edinburgher

Roymalika said:


> May I ask whether sentence 2 is correct and means the same as 1?


Yes you may and no it isn't;  "elder" is really only used attributively (i.e. before a noun, as it says in WRD).


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## Packard

I think that “elder”, in American English, is only currently used in the noun form.

Packard [spoken to rude child, about eight years old on line with mother at supermarket.  The comment directed to the child, but intended for the mother’s ears.]:  _You should be more respectful to your *elders*._

Child [to Packard]:  Screw you old man.

Mother: (_silent_).


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## dojibear

I know two languages (Mandarin, Korean) that have no common words for "sister" and "brother". Instead, they have four words that mean olderSister, youngerSister, olderBrother, and youngerBrother (older/younger than the speaker). These four words (as well as "aunt" and "uncle") are commonly used about people you aren't related to. Of course these languages have other phrases for "older than" and for "the third oldest of four siblings".

People who speak these languages might wonder what they should say in English: "elder brother" or "older brother".

I have no answer, but it seems to be changing. The first chart is BE. The second chart is AE.

Google Books Ngram Viewer

Google Books Ngram Viewer


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## kentix

And here they are together.  

Google Books Ngram Viewer


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## natkretep

dojibear said:


> People who speak these languages might wonder what they should say in English: "elder brother" or "older brother".


As kentix as suggested, we could use the informal 'big/little brother/sister'.


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## Roymalika

Edinburgher said:


> Yes you may and no it isn't;  "elder" is really only used attributively (i.e. before a noun, as it says in WRD).


Thanks.
Some people use the preposition "to", i.e.
_John is elder *to* me. _

Do you think it's still not correct?


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## heypresto

Who are "some people"?


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## Roymalika

heypresto said:


> Who are "some people"?


Some people in my country. Mostly English teachers.


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## Kimaunz

As a non-native speaker of English, I was taught to use 'my elder sister' when I went to middle school in South Korea decades ago.


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## heypresto

Roymalika said:


> Some people in my country. Mostly English teachers.


Ah, maybe it's Indian English then. I hope they are not teaching it as standard usage anywhere else.


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## Roymalika

heypresto said:


> Ah, maybe it's Indian English then. I hope they are not teaching it as standard usage anywhere else.


Thanks. I will never use 'elder to' or 'elder than'.  
But I've just seen this, which has got me confused:


> eld•er1 /ˈɛldɚ/
> adj. a *compar*. of _old_ with eldest as superl.



(WR Dictionary) 

My question is, 
If "elder" can't be used as a comparative adjective as in "John is elder to/than me", then why has the dictionary marked it as a comparative adjective? 
I think it's a mistake by the dictionary. 
What do you say please?


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## heypresto

You haven't quoted the rest of that definition:  

[before a noun; used only of people]

of greater age; older: _my elder sister_.


Would you say things like 'John is older/taller/cleverer/richer/faster . . . *to* me?

And as I implied above in post #42, I don't think 'John is elder than me' is something we'd ever say.


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## Roymalika

heypresto said:


> You haven't quoted the rest of that definition:
> 
> [before a noun; used only of people]
> 
> of greater age; older: _my elder sister_.
> 
> 
> Would you say things like 'John is older/taller/cleverer/richer/faster . . . *to* me?
> 
> And as I implied above in post #42, I don't think 'John is elder than me' is something we'd ever say.


I'd seen the full definition. I only object to the dictionary's calling it a "comparative adjective". I think it's wrong because it can't act like a comparative adjective, as we've discussed. It should be "attributive adjective".


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## heypresto

It says, when written in full, "adjective. a comparative of old with eldest as superlative" which is true. 


But then you seem to think that comparatives should work with 'to', as in "John is elder to me". This is not the case. 


heypresto said:


> Would you say things like 'John is older/taller/cleverer/richer/faster . . . *to* me?


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## Edinburgher

Roymalika said:


> It should be "attributive adjective".


No.  Whether a word is attributive is not an intrinsic property of it.  It's only an indication of how we use it in a sentence.

_The *hungry* dog devoured its supper in 20 seconds flat._  (attributive)
_The dog was so *hungry* that it devoured..._  (predicative)
You can't put into a dictionary that "_hungry_ is an attributive adjective".

In the case of _elder_, by saying "[before a noun]", the dictionary is telling you that we normally only use it attributively.

But it's still comparative.


If you want to use "to", you can say "A is senior to B".


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## Roymalika

heypresto said:


> But then you seem to think that comparatives should work with 'to', as in "John is elder to me".


No, I think that comparatives should work with either "to" or "than". But "elder" neither works with "to", nor with "than". 
So I think it is called "comparative adjective" because it is the comparative form of "old". When we talk about function, it is always "attributive" (e.g. an _elder_ brother, _elder_ sister etc.) 

I think you'll agree with me.


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## Edinburgher

Roymalika said:


> No, I think that comparatives should work with either "to" or "than".


Why do you say that?  Comparatives don't generally pair with "to".
You can't say "The grass on the other side of the fence is *greener to* the grass on this side."
You can say "He is *more generous to* his daughter than to his son."  But that's because "to" also pairs with the non-comparative "generous".


Roymalika said:


> I think it is called "comparative adjective" because it is the comparative form of "old".


Not "the", but "a" comparative form.


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## heypresto

Roymalika said:


> I think that comparatives should work with either "to" or "than"


Why do you think they should work with 'to'? Just so we get an idea of what you have in mind, please give us a couple of example sentences.


I'll say this _again_:


heypresto said:


> Would you say things like 'John is older/taller/cleverer/richer/faster . . . *to* me?


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## Roymalika

I think I was wrong in saying that comparatives can work with "to". Sorry.



Edinburgher said:


> Not "the", but "a" comparative form.


May I ask the reason please? 



heypresto said:


> "John is elder than me."


Can I ask how I can say this sentence in a correct way?


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## heypresto

Roymalika said:


> Can I ask how I can say this sentence in a correct way?


John is older than me.


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## Edinburgher

Roymalika said:


> May I ask the reason please?


"Old" has two comparative forms: "elder" and "older".  Therefore neither of them can lay claim to being *the* comparative form of "old".
"The" implies uniqueness.


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## Roymalika

heypresto said:


> John is older than me.


Yes, I know that. But I was asking whether it's possible to write that sentence correctly using "elder"?


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## Edinburgher

Roymalika said:


> But I was asking whether it's possible to write that sentence correctly using "elder"?


Bearing in mind that you can only use the "elder" attributively, I don't think it's possible to combine it with "than".


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## heypresto

You asked how to to write "John is elder than me" correctly. 


Roymalika said:


> Can I ask how I can say this sentence in a correct way?


And the answer is 'John is older than me.'



Roymalika said:


> But I was asking whether it's possible to write that sentence correctly using "elder"?



I guess you could use the noun 'elder', and say 'John is my elder', but it's not as natural as 'John is older than me.'


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## Roymalika

Thanks a lot for your answers! 

I have another question. 

I've heard that "elder" can only be used for very close family members, i.e. brothers, sisters only.
I wonder whether it can be used for uncles, aunts and other family relations, and whether it can be used for people who are not at all related to you?

Examples

My elder uncle, Tom, is a university professor. He has been teaching English for about 20 years. 

John is my elder friend. He helps me out in my studies. 

Yesterday I went to a shop to buy some grocery. The shopkeeper was an elder man. He looked between 60-65 in age.


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## Edinburgher

In principle there is nothing to stop you from using 'elder' with someone other than a sibling, but in practice it's just not done.
It's not "can only be", but "is only".

Also, take care not to confuse it with 'elderly'.


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## london calling

Roymalika said:


> Thanks.
> Some people use the preposition "to", i.e.
> _John is elder *to* me. _
> 
> Do you think it's still not correct?


That must be Indian English. It isn't correct in BE and I'm pretty sure it isn't in AE either.


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## dojibear

Roymalika said:


> John is elder *to* me.


In AE, that is incorrect.


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## Kimaunz

Jasmine Anderson said:


> Which is right when introducing a person. "She is my Older sister" Or "She is my Elder sister" ?




Somebody please clarify.
Thank you very much


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## Elle Paris

Thomas Tompion said:


> That's interesting, Owlman.
> 
> Would you even talk of your oldest sister, to refer to the older of your two sisters, both of whom are younger than you?
> 
> This is beginning to sound like the Marx Brothers' sketch about _the party of the first part_.  It's easily findable on YouTube but I don't think I'm allowed to link it directly.  If you feel like a good laugh, it's worth it.


So, what about "eldest"? :-D  In any case I agree with everyone who says that it doesn't really matter.


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