# EN: a friend of mine/yours/his/hers/theirs/ours, of Peter('s), of his mother('s), etc. - double possessive



## rousni

Comment expliquer, svp, l'emploi conjugué de 'of' et de 's dans cet énoncé:

... all he had to wear were old clothes of Dudley’s, and Dudley was about four times bigger than he was

*Moderator note:* Multiple threads merged to create this one.


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## marget

The concept is called the double possessive in English grammar.  You can find a discussion on the topic here.


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## LV4-26

Rousni, tu connais probablement l'expression _a friend of mine._
Et bien, _old clothes of Dudley's_ est construit sur le même principe.


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## Nalef

Bonjour, j'aimerais savoir comment l'on traduit 'un ami de sa mère' : y a t il nécessairement un *'s* après le mot mother ou seulement dans certains cas?
Merci beaucoup


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## Franglais1969

Bonsoir,

I would definitely say *his/her mother's friend.*


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## Conchita57

"A friend of his/her mother's" est aussi possible.

L'apostrophe + "s" est nécessaire dans les deux cas.


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## Franglais1969

You are completely correct. 

Although I would say my proposal is much more common, (in BE anyway).


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## Nalef

Merci beaucoup. Ma question était en fait de savoir si il fallait dire 'a friend of his mother's ' ou si il était correct de dire 'a friend of his mother'.
pouvez vous confirmer si la deuxième possibilité est correcte?


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## laura003

you could say "A friend of his/her mother. (no s)


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## Franglais1969

You can also say a friend of his mother, yes.

J'espère que cela vous aide.


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## floise

Nalef,

Je ne sais pas si cela te tente, mais tu peux essayer de comprendre la structure de 'a friend of his mother's' (appelé un 'double possessive'), qu'un linguiste explique ici:

http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-dou3.htm

floise


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## Nalef

Merci franglais, et merci floise pour cet article. mais alors, si j'en réfère à l'article de Floise, il faut mettre 'a friend of his mother's' sinon cela ferait ' a friend of you' or a friend of he'. Mais d'après franglais1969, c'est accepté. est-ce une forme qui était comme cela dans le passé et qui disparait?


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## Conchita57

Franglais1969 said:


> Although I would say my proposal is much more common, (in BE anyway).



Yet your sentence has a different meaning than mine and translates differently:

1. His mother's friend = _*l*'ami de sa mère_.

2. A friend of his mother's = _*un* ami de sa mère_.


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## Franglais1969

I see your point. You are completely correct.  I am sorry.  Definitely time for bed!


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## aedtcj

Please, please, PLEASE don't say that "a friend of his mother's" is correct. It's just repetitive and completely useless. "A friend of his mother" is just fine.


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## Conchita57

Would you say that _a friend of hers_ is also wrong and repetitive?  What do you say in this case, _a friend of her_?


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## Franglais1969

I have slept on this, and have decided that I was correct in the first instance.

Who is she?  She is a friend of his mother or she's his mother's friend.  My initial thought can be used as both the indefinite and definite article.


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## sam's mum

To my english ears _a friend of my mother's_ sounds right - _a friend of my mother_ just sounds all wrong. I've just run it past my 20 yr old son (who is allergic to grammar, by the way!) and his instinctive response was the same.
However, I think I would more likely say _one of my mother's friends_


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## berndf

Here http://www.englishforums.com/English/QuestionDoublePossessivesOther/cmcqp/post.htm you may find a compilation of what various sources have to say about the double possessive.


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## donques

Conchita57 said:


> Would you say that _a friend of hers_ is also wrong and repetitive? What do you say in this case, _a friend of her_?


You wouldn't say that _a friend of hers_ is wrong and repetitive, because pronouns unlike nouns in English are inflected to show case. The _'s_ at the end of mother is a clitic and can/should be removed if a preposition is being used to indicate possession . So there *is* a case (no pun intended) for saying the noun phrase sounds repetitive but the pronoun not. You can say _her friend_ but _her_ is an adjective in this example.

The important thing here for a foreign speaker is that _a friend of her_ _mother_ will always be understood as correct. Some people will blanch on hearing _a friend of her mother's_


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## mother2003

Hi, everybody
I think "a friend of his" in french means un ami à lui but I don't understand 
why it's not a friend of him



Thanks for answering me


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## kme

Parce que il s'agit d'un de *ses* amis = c'est un possésif et non pas un pronom qu'il faut utiliser... C'est pourquoi l'anglais utilise His (l'adjectif posséssif) et pas Him (le pronom).


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## sassin

This structure seems strange (even to some English speakers) because the possessive is shown twice, once with *of* and once with the _possessive_ pronoun or *'s*:

A friend *of *_his_ = his friend
A friend *of *_mine_ = my friend
A friend *of* Amanda*'s* = Amanda's friend

(In the past, people might have corrected you to say "A friend of Amanda" but "A friend of Amanda's" is acceptable because of how the pronoun is used.)Ce n'est pas très logique de mettre le possessif deux fois, mais voilà, c'est comme ça dans ce cas. Peut-être quelqu'un pourrait mieux l'expliquer? Experts de grammaire?


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## House2008

Good evening,

I don't understand the use of " 's " in this phrase.

" She is an acquaintance *of* Peter*'s* "

C'est une amie de Peter ? Why "of" and " 's " ?

Thank you


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## JiPiJou

Probably a mistake. English-speaking people sometimes have problems with the " 's". Sometimes a word is implied, as in "I am staying at Peter's" (i.e. "Peter's house") but that does not seem to be the case here.


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## phosphore

House2008 is not asking about that 

Instances of double genitive are quite common and you could compare this phrase to _a friend of mine_.

Take a look on this page: http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-dou3.htm


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## rsweet

This instance confuses even native speakers. It seems as if the "of" would take care of the possession without the apostrophe "s," but I'm fairly certain this is correct . . . at least it sounds natural to me. "She was a friend of my mother's," for example.


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## House2008

And what if I say "She is an acquaintance of Peter" ? What would be the difference ?


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## rsweet

This would sound incorrect to a native speaker.  Phosphore's link is a very good explanation.


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## House2008

Ok. From now on I will not forget to put " 's " in such a sentence.

Thank you


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## afbyorb

> And what if I say "She is an acquaintance of Peter" ? What would be the difference ?


I would say there is NO difference.
She may well have been a sister _*of Paul*_ not to mention the aunt of Joe's _*mother*_.


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## Tim~!

I disagree.

In your first case (Paul) I would definitely put the _'s_ to form the double genitive.  This strikes me as supported by analogy, since one would say "a sister of mine" rather than "a sister of me".

In the second case no-one would put 's, and I think this is due to the presence of the definite article.  If you replaced it with "_an_ aunt" I would add _'s_, again supported somewhat by analogy with "an aunt of hers" rather than "an aunt of her".


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## Aterian

Bonjour,

_1. An uncle of somebody.
2. An uncle of somebody's._

Quel est le meilleur ?

Merci.


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## Maître Capello

En dehors du fait que cela n'a guère de sens d'employer _somebody_ dans une telle expression – pas plus que de dire _un oncle de quelqu'un_ en français –, on peut employer le double possessif ou non.


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## Aterian

C'est le dialogue du film Reno 911! sorti en 2007,

_In this corner, we got our undefeated champ... and in this corner, we got some old, weird *uncle of somebody's* and s**t._

Dans ce contexte, que j'avais malheureusement omis, j'ai pourtant l'impression que la forme _uncle of somebody's_ est justifiée.

Merci.


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## Maître Capello

Dans ce contexte, ce n'est pas _*an* uncle_, mais _*some* uncle_, ce qui n'est pas tout à fait la même chose… 

Quoi qu'il en soit, le double possessif est parfaitement idiomatique.


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