# Wobei... Lieber nicht.



## j-Adore

Ob ich mal ... laufen soll? *Wobei*... Lieber nicht.


Hi. I'm not sure how to interpret the "wobei" here. Does it mean "*although*/*but*", or is it more like a relative clause-ish use with the meaning of "*about that* (I'd rather not)"?


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## Kajjo

j-Adore said:


> Does it mean "*although*/*but*",


 That's it.

"Wobei..." starts to introduce a contrary thought, but then the tought is interrupted. This is kind of a rhetorical solution to not state a clear message, but just to draw the consequence.


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## j-Adore

@Kajjo Hi. How does "wobei" compare to using "aber/doch", then?


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## Kajjo

j-Adore said:


> Hi. How does "wobei" compare to using "aber/doch", then?


In German you could think of the "Wobei" with a meaning similar to "Allerdings..." or "Andererseits...". It introduces an opposite, a restricting thought or another perspective.

Using "Wobei" in such a case is very idiomatic and should be thought as fixed phrase. It cannot really replaced by other words in real life


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## Frieder

I'd translate this _wobei_ as _which reminds me_. You don't say what it reminds you of, nor what _it_ is. It's just some vague expression that can be used anytime you can't think of any valid reason.

Eigentlich sollte ich mal laufen. Wobei ... Ach nee, lieber doch nicht.


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## elroy

But "which reminds me" wouldn't make any sense in this context.  The equivalent English term is "actually."


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## Frieder

I don't think that _actually _would be the proper term in this case. The whole phrase is "wobei mir gerade einfällt, dass ...", from which only _wobei_ is pronounced and the rest is left unsaid. 

Perhaps you could come up with a better one?


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## elroy

"Actually" is used with that meaning.


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## j-Adore

Hi. Isn't it more like "though" or "(but) then again" than "actually"?


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## elroy

It's the "actually" that you use when you think of something contradictory or important to consider or whatever.

For example,

_I'm going to invite Tom to the party...  Actually... he doesn't get along with Sally and she's coming, so maybe I shouldn't invite him.

Ich werde Tom zur Party einladen... Wobei... er versteht sich nicht gut mit Sally, die dabei sein wird, also sollte ich ihn vielleicht nicht einladen. _


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## JClaudeK

Frieder said:


> The whole phrase is "wobei mir gerade einfällt, dass ..."


This is one of some possible phrases.
It could also be:
Ob ich mal ... laufen soll?
Wobei _ich sagen muss, eigentlich habe ich keine Lust. Also:_ Lieber nicht!
Wobei _ich bedenken/ berücksichtigen muss, dass ..... Also:_ Lieber nicht!
Wobei .....


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## Schlabberlatz

JClaudeK said:


> This is one of some possible phrases.
> It could also be:
> Ob ich mal ... laufen soll?
> Wobei _ich sagen muss, eigentlich habe ich keine Lust. Also:_ Lieber nicht!
> Wobei _ich bedenken/ berücksichtigen muss, dass ..... Also:_ Lieber nicht!
> Wobei .....


Or: „Wobei … wenn ich so darüber nachdenke, fällt mir ein, dass ich gar keine Lust habe, also … lieber nicht.“


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## Kajjo

elroy said:


> I'm going to invite Tom to the party... Actually... he doesn't get along with Sally and she's coming, so maybe I shouldn't invite him.


I believe Elroy. He usually suggests fine idiomatic English versions. However, I agree, that for Germans this usage of "actually" is weird, if you are not aware of this possible phrasing. I didn't know, "actually" can be used this way.

But anyway, I am quite certain that it fits perfectly.


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## elroy

"Actually" and "eigentlich" are often false friends, and it's something I feel like many native speakers of both languages aren't (fully) aware of, so this may be the source of the wonderment here.  I wonder if this has been addressed in a previous thread.


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## Gernot Back

j-Adore said:


> Ob ich mal ... laufen soll? *Wobei*... Lieber nicht.


_Should I ... go by foot? Thinking about it, ... I'd rather not!_​


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## elroy

That's not idiomatic in American English.


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## Sowka

Would "Come to think of it" work, in your opinion?


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## elroy

Im Prinzip schon.   I even thought of that as an alternative.

But I think it's unliklely in this particular context.


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## Gernot Back

What about
_But then again_ (thinking of it) ...​???
By the way; I think
_Thinking of it ..._​for German
_wobei ..._​is perfect Californian-American English.

Where else should I have it from, other than my British school English?


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## j-Adore

@JClaudeK Hi. What do you think is the French equivalent of this "wobei"? I can't seem to pinpoint it myself.


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## JClaudeK

j-Adore said:


> What do you think is the French equivalent of this "wobei"?


_Ob ich mal ... laufen soll? *Wobei*... Lieber nicht._
=> 
Je me demande si ... je ne devrais pas courir un peu. *Cela dit / A vrai dire *..... il (ne) vaut mieux pas. (Il y a sans doute encore d'autres possibilités ...)


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## j-Adore

@JClaudeK I was personally tempted to interpret this "wobei" as "that said" or "then again", both of which introduce a concessive statement. Your suggestion "cela dit" has confirmed it. Once again, French has saved the day! Merci.


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## JClaudeK

j-Adore said:


> I was personally tempted to interpret this "wobei" as "that said"   ... French has saved the day.


 Tant mieux !


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## Dan2

I agree with elroy about "actually".


Gernot Back said:


> _Should I ... go by foot? Thinking about it, ... I'd rather not!_





elroy said:


> That's not idiomatic in American English.


What part?  I would tend to say "Should I walk?" (if the question is about getting somewhere by walking vs riding/driving).  The rest (which is the part relevant to this thread) is perfectly idiomatic in my opinion.


Gernot Back said:


> Should I ... go by foot?





JClaudeK said:


> Je me demande si ... je ne devrais pas courir un peu.


Note that GB and JC are interpreting "Ob ich mal ... laufen soll" differently.  (I'm aware of _laufen_'s ambiguity, as seen from the perspective of other languages.)


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## Kajjo

Dan2 said:


> Note that GB and JC are interpreting "Ob ich mal ... laufen soll" differently. (I'm aware of _laufen_'s ambiguity, as seen from the perspective of other languages.)


Yes, and both interpretations are valid. Without context, it is not possible to tell, what the author intended. _Laufen_ is very often used in the way Gernot interpreted it.


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## JClaudeK

Kajjo said:


> Yes, and both interpretations are valid. Without context, it is not possible to tell, what the author intended.


That's true.
I could have translated "Je me demande si ... je ne devrais pas marcher (pour changer)." as well. (laufen = zu Fuß gehen, statt den Wagen zu nehmen)


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## berndf

JClaudeK said:


> _Ob ich mal ... laufen soll? *Wobei*... Lieber nicht._
> =>
> Je me demande si ... je ne devrais pas courir un peu. *Cela dit / A vrai dire *..... il (ne) vaut mieux pas. (Il y a sans doute encore d'autres possibilités ...)





j-Adore said:


> @JClaudeK I was personally tempted to interpret this "wobei" as "that said" or "then again", both of which introduce a concessive statement. Your suggestion "cela dit" has confirmed it. Once again, French has saved the day! Merci.





JClaudeK said:


> Tant mieux !


I strongly disagree. Using _wobei_ this way means that you have though more about it and then changed your mind and decided against.


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## berndf

Dan2 said:


> What part? I would tend to say "Should I walk?" (if the question is about getting somewhere by walking vs riding/driving). The rest (which is the part relevant to this thread) is perfectly idiomatic in my opinion.


That's what I though as well when I read Gernot's suggestion. I am a bit surprised that elroy seems to have more of an issue with the second part (#18).


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## JClaudeK

j-Adore said:


> I was personally tempted to interpret this "wobei" as "that said" or "then again", both of which introduce a concessive statement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> berndf said:
> 
> 
> 
> I strongly disagree. Using _wobei_ this way means that you have though more about it and then changed your mind and decided against.
Click to expand...

Und inwiefern sollte da "Cela dit"/ "that said" nicht passen? Das kann meines Erachtens sehr wohl Nachdenken und einen anschließenden Meinungswechsel ausdrücken.
Ich sehe keinen Unterschied zu:


j-Adore said:


> Does it mean "*although*/*but*"
> 
> 
> Kajjo said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's it.
Click to expand...


*Oder?*


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## berndf

JClaudeK said:


> Und inwiefern sollte da "Cela dit"/ "that said" nicht passen? Das kann meines Erachtens sehr wohl Nachdenken und einen anschließenden Meinungswechsel ausdrücken.


That is not how I would have understood it. I would have understood _cela dit_ (=_having said that_) as expressing an ambivalence and not a change of mind.


JClaudeK said:


> Ich sehe keinen Unterschied zu:
> *Oder?*


I wouldn't have agreed with that. I much prefer Gernot's and Sowka's


Gernot Back said:


> Thinking about it





Sowka said:


> Come to think of it


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## JClaudeK

berndf said:


> That is not how I would have understood it. I would have understood _cela dit_ (=_having said that_) as expressing an ambivalence and not a change of mind.


Eine Frage der Interpretation.
j-Adore scheint das auch anders zu sehen.

PS.
Anstelle von "wobei ...." wäre m.E. auch "obwohl ...." möglich.


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## Dan2

JClaudeK said:


> Und inwiefern sollte da "Cela dit"/ "that said" nicht passen? Das kann meines Erachtens sehr wohl Nachdenken und einen anschließenden Meinungswechsel ausdrücken.


For me, "that said" doesn't work as a real-time marker of change of opinion:
_A sandwich? Sure, I'll have one.  Actually / That said, I'm not really hungry, so forget it._
Rather, it introduces a pre-planned alternative view, much like "nevertheless":
_WRF is a wonderful source of information about a wide variety of languages.  That said, it's often difficult to find exactly what you're looking for._


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## berndf

JClaudeK said:


> j-Adore scheint das auch anders zu sehen.


Not really. He said:


j-Adore said:


> both of which introduce a concessive statement


And a "change of mind" is what a "concessive statement" is exactly not.



Dan2 said:


> Rather, it introduces a pre-planned alternative view


Exactly.


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## elroy

I don't find "thinking about it" idiomatic.  No matter how many times I say it to myself, I can't get it to sound natural.


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## berndf

Thank you. So it is you personal Sprachgefühl as a native speaker which is of course a valid argument.

Here is an attestation from a contemporary Australian author: _And, thinking about it a bit more, when I was eighteen months old, I had my photograph in the Melbourne Herald Sun newspaper._

Do you consider this unidiomatic as well or is there anything in the context that makes it more acceptable to you then in our sentence?


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## elroy

What comes before that example?


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## berndf

Here is the context: I Spy with My Bionic Eye", p34.


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## exgerman

Now that I think about it...I'd rather not. The German of course only expressly verbalizes _about it_.


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## JClaudeK

Dan2 said:


> For me, "that said" doesn't work as a real-time marker of change of opinion:
> _A sandwich? Sure, I'll have one. .....  Actually / That said, I'm not really hungry, so forget it._


But for me "Cela dit, ..." is still possible here. (Of course (in English)  "_Actually" _is the best._)_

Would you say that "after all"  fits better?
In French  "Tout compte fait/  Après tout, .....  il vaut mieux pas"  works very well here (in my opinion).


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## Dan2

JClaudeK said:


> Would you say that "after all" fits better?


Interestingly, English "after all" doesn't work at all here.  "after all" at the beginning of a sentence is used to introduce a reason already known to the addressee, whereas my realization that I'm not hungry is known only to me (similarly with the OP decision not to _laufen_).  Ex. of appropriate use of sentence-initial "after all":
- A sandwich?  Sure, I'll have one.  After all, we haven't eaten since breakfast.


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## berndf

JClaudeK said:


> But for me "Cela dit, ..." is still possible here. (Of course (in English)  "_Actually" _is the best._)_
> 
> Would you say that "after all"  fits better?
> In French  "Tout compte fait/  Après tout, .....  il vaut mieux pas"  works very well here (in my opinion).


It seems to me, you somehow don't see the key difference. All your suggestions (English and French) relate to a situation where someone says
"I admit that A is right but I will still do B".​That is what is called a "concessive statement" and that is how the OP understood the sentence (see #22). What we are saying is that this is a misunderstanding and in this particular case "wobei" is not concessive at all. The utterance we are talking about here is of a completely different type:
"I think I will do A. Stop! I have changed my mind. I will do B instead."​


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## JClaudeK

berndf said:


> What we are saying is that this is a misunderstanding and in this particular case "wobei" is not concessive at all.


OK, also nicht "concessive" (diesen Ausdruck hat j-Adore verwendet).



berndf said:


> All your suggestions (English and French) relate to a situation where someone says
> "I admit that A is right but I will still do B".


Findest du??

Keinen dieser Vorschläge kann man mMn. als "concessive" betrachten. Auch in diese kann (mMn.!) ein _"Stop! I have changed my mind."_ hineingelesen werden (es wird  z.T. eine Ausrede gesucht!).


Frieder said:


> The whole phrase is "wobei mir gerade einfällt, dass ...",





JClaudeK said:


> It could also be:
> Ob ich mal ... laufen soll?
> Wobei _ich sagen muss, eigentlich habe ich keine Lust. Also:_ Lieber nicht!
> In French "Tout compte fait ..... il vaut mieux pas/ [je préfère pas]" works very well here


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## berndf

JClaudeK said:


> Findest du??
> 
> Keinen dieser Vorschläge kann man mMn. als "concessive" betrachten. Auch in diese kann (mMn.!) ein _"Stop! I have changed my mind."_ hineingelesen werden.


Im französischen will ich mich nicht all zu sehr aus dem Fenster lehnen, weil das nur meine Drittsprache ist und Du Muttersprachler bist, aber ich finde schon.

Im Englischen bin ich mir hingegen recht sicher, dass Deine Vorschläge den Interpretationswechsel von Konzessiv zu _ich-habe-meine-Meinung-geändert_ nicht überleben. Und Dan sagt das ja auch recht deutlich.


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## JClaudeK

berndf said:


> Deine Vorschläge


Habe ich etwas auf Englisch vorgeschlagen? Ich habe (soviel ich noch weiß - alles noch mal zu lesen, ist mir zu doof) nur bescheiden angefragt.


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## berndf

Das verstehe ich. Wäre mir auch zu blöd. Die Diskussion ist schon recht unübersichtlich geworden. So wie ich dich verstanden habe hast Du "having said that" und "after all" vorgeschlagen.


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