# a, az



## themadprogramer

szia! I'm just starting to learn Hungarian but I'm infuriated that a and az are considered "definite articles" wherever I read about them, because quite clearly they seem to be a bit more unique.

The pianist -> A zongorista
This seems okay.

Are you afraid of spiders? -> Félsz a pókoktól?
Okay I wouldn't say "of the spiders" in English unless I was referring to spiders that were in close proximity, this is a bit like Romanian or Greek I guess I've seen this before no need to panic.

That is green. -> Az zöld.
That apple is green. -> Az az alma zöld.

And this was the point where I snapped. Using a definite article of any kind after a demonstrative pronoun feels really weird. Especially considering that the majority of definite articles are cognates of definite pronouns in their respective languages. (I even thought that these *az*'s were really just the same) But alas.
I tried to compare it to the Chinese
这 and 这个 (this, this followed by a special word called a classifier; 
you would use the first in the case of "az" and the second in the case of "az az")
however semantically speaking 个 is by no means a definite article. In fact in some cases 个 can ironically be used like a pseudo-indefinite article when alone.
(个苹果 ＝一个苹果 an apple = one apple)

So here I ask if anyone can provide a more definite explanation on these so called "definite articles".


Thanks in advance


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## uress

Well... Selam 

The az1: demonstrative pronoun: that (but sometimes translated as this into English or the or not at all)
The az2 + a: definite articles: originally there was only one: az. Then the z started to disappear before consonants.
To say always az is a smaller mistake that others, it sounds only a bit (actually quite a lot) oldfashioned. Is some dialects people always say a, but it sounds very uneducated.
Usage of the Hungarian definite article: differs in some points from that in the English language. You just have to learn it. Most Hungarian have the same difficulties with the English definite article 

Ve: bu ev: ez a ház, bu araba: ez az autó ama bu gece: ma este    
Ve: o ev: az a ház, o araba: az az autó, o gece (düsünüyorum): akkor este 
Ama: su ev: ez a ház + az a ház! su araba: ez az autó + az az autó, su gece: akkor este? - tam bilmiyorum 
Tamam? Iyi aksamlar!


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## francisgranada

Ahmet Akkoç said:


> ... Are you afraid of spiders? -> Félsz a pókoktól?
> Okay I wouldn't say "of the spiders" in English unless I was referring to spiders that were in close proximity ...


But e.g. in Italian I can imagine "Hai paura _dei _ragni?", where _dei _corresponds to the English "of the". In such cases the definite article concretizes/determines the species/category itself and not the individual object. Thus in your example _Félsz* a* pókoktól?_ the question is if you are afraid of "all *the *spiders in general".

As to the possible differences between the English and Hungarian, see e.g. the Romance languages: even if the usage of the articles in the Romance languages (perhaps except Romanian) is almost identical, there are differences. For example,  _*a* házunk _(our house) is _nuestra casa_ in Spanish, but _*la* nostra casa_ in Italian. Or _elnök úr_ (mister president) is _monsieur *le* president_ in French, but _señor presidente_ in Spanish and _signor presidente_ in Italian ...  I am convinced that we could find differences (e.g.) between English and German as well.


> That apple is green. -> Az az alma zöld.


In my opinion this is due to the fact that there is no formal difference between _az _(article) and _az _(demonstr. pronoun), to the contrary of e.g. the English _the _vs. _this/that_. However, such construction was not used some hundreds of years ago neither in Hungarian . In general (according to medieval written documents), in the past the definite article in Hungarian was used much less than today.

As to _a _instead of _az_, it's  similar to the French_ l'_ instead of _le_ (before words beginning with a vowel). In the oldest written documents only _az _(or _oz_) appears, later on the apostrophe was used to indicate the lack of "z" in the pronunciation  before consonants (e.g. _a*' *ház_). According to the actual orthography, we have two forms: _az_ and _a_.


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## uress

Hungarian is Hungarian and not Italian, either, or anything else... Hungarian is not even an Indoeuropean language.


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## themadprogramer

uress said:


> Hungarian is Hungarian and not Italian, either, or anything else... Hungarian is not even an Indoeuropean language.



I've been wondering about that for a while, can anyone show me the first attestation of a/az as an article?


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## Zsanna

Nobody will be able to do that, Ahmet. The change was subtle, graduate as it often is in a language.

As far as I know, in the Jókai-kódex (from about 1440, a long enough text that linguists could study), there are examples for _az_ used as a demonstrative pronoun as well as a definite article.


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## franknagy

The articles *a, az* have been developed from the demonstrative article* az* in the Hungarian language. There vas a stage (19th century) when the *a* article used to be written by an apostrophe *a' *before consonants. There is another weird usage of the definite article: It is used with the personal possessive endings and togeter with personal possesive pronouns:
_*A* házam, *az* én házam. Az *a* ház *az* enyém.
The last sententence = That house *is* mine _is an example where *az* is used instead of the verbal predicate, the copula.

English spelling checkers excude the repeated word. In Hungarian such repetition are legal: "*Az* *az* azték város, Tenochtitlan, *azaz* a mai Mexikóváros egy tóra épült."
That Aztec town Tenochtitlan that is the present Mexico City has been built onto a lake.


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## francisgranada

franknagy said:


> ...There vas a stage (19th century) when the *a* article used to be written by an apostrophe *a' *before consonants ...


 Only for sake of exactness: during the 19th century the usage of the apostrophe was gradually abandoned (see e.g. the famous Pallas Nagy Lexikona), so it was rather typical for the previous centuries (I have some printed books from the 17th and 18th centuries, where the apostrophe is consequently used). 





> English spelling checkers excude the repeated word. In Hungarian such repetition are legal: "*Az* *az* azték város ...


 In English it would not be a repetition: the article is _the _and the demonstr. pronouns are _this _or _that_ (see my post #3). 





Ahmet Akkoç said:


> ... can anyone show me the first attestation of a/az as an article?


Probably not, because the today's usage seems to be the consequence of a _gradual evolution_ of the last  1000 or more years. As I have mentioned before (post #3), the definite article was less used some centuries ago than today, i.e. if the noun was determined otherwise (e.g. provided by a possessive ending, etc.), it was not yet used.

I agree with Zsanna (post #6), i.e. in the 15th century the demonstr. pronoun _az _was already used also in function of article. However, as far as I know, some linguists think that the grammatical category of the definite article in Hungarian developed during the first centuries after the settlement of Hungarians in the Carpathian basin, others think that it existed already before, however they all agree that it's not a common Finno-Ugric/Uralic  heritage.


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## themadprogramer

Okay now let's move onto:
Mi a neve? or Az énférjem...
Why would I want to use a/az in this case, is it common to use a/az even when the owner of a possession is obvious?

Is this the same a/az or something more different?


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## francisgranada

Ahmet Akkoç said:


> ...Mi a neve? or Az én férjem...
> Why would I want to use a/az in this case, is it common to use a/az even when the owner of a possession is obvious? ...


You may not _want _to use a/az at all, but native speakers do use it ... I suppose you have read all the answers, so only shortly: _Qual è *il* suo nome? _(_Mi *a* neve?_ in Italian); _This is* the* house of mine_ (_Ez *az* én házam_ in English); etc ... I.e. the usage of the definite article,  even if the "owner of the possession is obvious", is quite common in many languages. I'd say that the reason lies in the _grammaticalization _of the category of the article (as such), but this would be rather a topic/question for the EHL forum.  





> ... Is this the same a/az or something more different?


This is simply the "same" definite article (as far as I have understood your question correctly...)


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## Zsanna

The use of the definite article is usually rather complex (e.g. in English just as well as in Hungarian), I don't think we could explain all the ins and outs of it here. (Only specific examples.)
Your examples (Mi a neve? Az én férjem...) - I would think - are "classical examples" for cases that you have to memorize as such. Not much point in looking for a reason. 
It is true that in English the possesive pronoun in itself is sufficient as a determinant but obviously it is not the case in Hungarian. (Neither it is in Italian, as francis showed above.)
In my own experience, I've found that unless you are prepared to study linguistics (as opposed to "just" the language itself) the question "why" is not a good one...

Later on, you'll meet cases when the use of the definite article (still involving the possessive) is optional (albeit with a difference in the meaning in some cases) and then it will be really worth seeing what the expression means with and without the article.

However, there are some guidelines in the Nyelvművelő Kéziszótár (first 6 pages!) that can be downloaded from the net. (I give the link for it but it is in pdf so I'm not sure you'll be able to read it.)

P.S. Yes, pdf links don't work here.


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## uress

franknagy said:


> "*Az* *az* azték város, Tenochtitlan, *azaz* a mai Mexikóváros egy tóra épült."



Az "Azaz az az azték város..." mondatod nagyon jó  (=Your sentence is very good.)


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## MosoMasa

Indeed, although it does not help greatly finding out why and where you need the definite article in Hungarian.


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