# Afghan Persian: Gulha ra chida



## Kahaani

Salaam doosta ye man,

Yek ahang e Afghani shinidam wa kheyli khoob bud, magar nemidoonam chi gofteh bud. Lotfan beh man begoo 'gulha ra chida' yani chi. 

merci!


----------



## Qureshpor

^ I picked flowers.


----------



## Kahaani

How is it possible for _Chida _to be a verb? It doesn't have a suffix denoting neither the object of the sentence nor the tense. 

Gul= flower?
Ha = indicates plural
ra = denotes the object
Chid = stem? (full verb =Chidan?)
a = suffix of 3rd pers. perfect?

merci!


----------



## HZKhan

having picked up the flowers.


----------



## Qureshpor

Kahaani said:


> How is it possible for _Chida _to be a verb? It doesn't have a suffix denoting neither the object of the sentence nor the tense.
> 
> Gul= flower?
> Ha = indicates plural
> ra = denotes the subject
> Chid = stem? (full verb =Chidan?)
> a = suffix of 3rd pers. perfect?
> 
> merci!


A fuller context would be more helpful. 

The agent can be anybody if one just goes by "gulhaa raa chiidah---". I just took an educated guess that the speaker is the agent and hence "gulhaa raa chiidah am". This could mean "I have picked (the) flowers or "I picked (the) flowers. 

Talking about grammar, in your sentence...

Lotfan beh man begoo 'gulha ra chida' yani chi...the verb ought to be in the plural as you are addressing "friends".


----------



## HZKhan

Qureshpor said:


> A fuller context would be more helpful.



در باغ می‌خرامید آن ماه نورسیده
دامن‌کشان همی رفت گل‌ها را چیده چیده
با صد وقار و تمکین پس گشت دیده دیده
بر من نگاهش افتاد، چون آهوی رمیده
سر را به پیش افکند گویی مرا ندیده
...............


----------



## Kahaani

Thank you for your correction Qureshpot saaHib!

I hope you understand that I am unable to provide further context besides the name of the song and the singer, which is Sediq Shubab. Choon keh na famidam chi gofteh bud wa fikr mikonam keh yek sher e, yani kheyli zakht e! 

I hope you do not see my answer as rude, that is just my way to make sense of things. So, basically he's singing;

_phool chunayaa hai 

_If we were to say it in Urdu, so with the ommision of the subject of the verb! I didn't know this was possible for Persian verbs as the subject inflect the verbs a lot. 

Merci!


----------



## Qureshpor

^ That's no problem. From the information you have provided in post 7, one is still expected to locate the song and listen to it. As it happens, Pakistani Khan SaaHib has provided the full context.

In Urdu, the word for word translation might be......."phuul chun chun kar".


----------



## Kahaani

kheyli mamnoonam


----------



## darush

Hi Kahani,

A slight correction:



> Yek ahang e Afghani shinidam wa kheyli khoob bud, amma/vali nemidoonam chi gofteh bud. Lotfan beh man begid 'gulha ra chida' yani chi.
> 
> merci!



_gulha ra chida= gulha ra chida ast
_ means: she/he has picked the flowers

But in the provided text:

در باغ می‌خرامید آن ماه نورسیده
 دامن‌کشان همی رفت گل‌ها را چیده چیده
,which is equal to: آن ماه نورسیده در باغ می خرامید.گل ها را چیده بود و دامن کشان می رفت

گل ها را چیده بود :she had picked the flowers


----------



## Qureshpor

^ Thank you. In this case, why is "chiidah" repeated?


----------



## HZKhan

Qureshpor saahib, it seems to me a rather colloquial Afghan usage. But the meaning this contruction denotes is different from the simple past participle. I am at loss now as to how it should be translated in English, but in Urdu, 'chunte chunte' or 'chun chun kar' would be the equivalent constructions.

I found some more examples on google:

Ufff monda shodom eqa (?) 'post' karda karda  
'Admin' budam kare asan nabud

سوی عکست دیده دیده اشک چشمانم فتاد
 اشک  حسرت  دانه  دانه  در  گریبانم فتاد


----------



## eskandar

Of relevance may be Iraj Afshar's notes on this expression at the beginning of his article چیده چیده» از سفر پاکستان» . Since it requires a login to view, I'll copy it here:

محمد اسلم خان از فضلای ایران شناس لاهور، در کتاب مفید «تاریخی مقالات» (یعنی‌ مجموعه مقالات تاریخی) ضمن وصف تاریخی عالم آرای امینی تألیف فضل الله بن روزبهان‌ خنجی و در مقام معرفی ترجمه انگلیسی ملخص ولادیمیر مینورسکی و کیفیت رویه‌ای که او در گلچین و انتخاب آن کردن کتاب مذکور داشته است یک اصطلاح بسیار زیبای فارسی مصطلح‌ در زبان اردو را به کار گرفته و گفته است که مینورسکی «چیده‌چیده» از آن کتاب ترجه‌ کرده است. افسوس که چنین مصطلحات و الفاظ عالی پراکندهء فارسی در زبان‌های اردو و ترکی و بعض دیگر از السنه هند را جمع آوری نکرده‌ایم و فقط در خیال آنیم که در تنگنای‌ کمبود لغت،به لغت سازی بی‌معنی و من درآوردی که با «فرهنگ» ایرانی دیروز و امروز ارتباطی‌ ندارد روی آوریم،یا آنکه به پیروی از قدما و به تبعیت از عادت،در چنین مورد الفاظی نظیر «ملتطقات» یا «منتخبات» را به کار بریم...ببینید چقدر قشنگ و دلچسب است این الفاظ که در اردو از زبان فارسی گرفته شده: (دستیاب-موجود. همگانی زینه-پلهء اتفاقات، دستاویز-اسناد، چشمه-عینک).
سفرنامه‌ای که برای سفر تازهء خود به پاکستان می‌خواهم بنویسم «چیده‌چیده» است. ​


----------



## Qureshpor

Pakistani Khan said:


> Qureshpor saahib, it seems to me a rather colloquial Afghan usage. But the meaning this contruction denotes is different from the simple past participle. I am at loss now as to how it should be translated in English, but in Urdu, 'chunte chunte' or 'chun chun kar' would be the equivalent constructions.
> 
> I found some more examples on google:
> 
> "Ufff monda shodom eqa post karda karda
> Admin budam kare asan nabud"
> 
> "سوی عکست دیده دیده اشک چشمانم فتاد
> اشک  حسرت  دانه  دانه  در  گریبانم فتاد"


Thank you, Pakistan Khan SaaHib. You had provided this meaning, which I believe is the correct interpretation, as early as post 5 and I reiterated the same in post 8. This usage of the past participle is known as the "conjunctive participle". For more details, please see my reply to other friends.


----------



## Qureshpor

darush said:


> [...] آن ماه نورسیده در باغ می خرامید.گل ها را چیده بود و دامن کشان می رفت


aaqaa-ye-darush, I agree with your analysis regarding "chiidah buud" and the sentence could be translated something like..

That newly arrived beauty (moon) was strolling in the garden. S/he had picked (various) flowers and was walking with dignity and grace (daaman-kashaan).

However, the poet is describing a series of pickings, one after another, each picking of one or more flower amounting to "having picked".

Here is an example from "chahaar maqaalah" 

کاردے بدست گرفتہ گفت

Having held a knife in his hand, he said. (More idiomatically, "Holding a knife in his hand, he said")

 This, in essence is the same as:

گل ہا را چیدہ می رفت

To emphasise the repetitiveness of the act, the poet has decided to repeat the word "chiidah".

So گل‌ها را چیده می رفت repeated a few times is being represented as:

گل‌ها را چیده چیده می رفت

If you know Urdu, this would be exactly equivalent to:

 ٹہل رہا تھا باغ میں وہ ماہ نیا نیا آ کے
اتراتے ہوئے جا رہا تھا پھول چن چن کے


----------



## Qureshpor

eskandar said:


> Of relevance may be Iraj Afshar's notes on this expression at the beginning of his article چیده چیده» از سفر پاکستان» . Since it requires a login to view, I'll copy it here:
> 
> محمد اسلم خان از فضلای ایران شناس لاهور، در کتاب مفید «تاریخی مقالات» (یعنی‌ مجموعه مقالات تاریخی) ضمن وصف تاریخی عالم آرای امینی تألیف فضل الله بن روزبهان‌ خنجی و در مقام معرفی ترجمه انگلیسی ملخص ولادیمیر مینورسکی و کیفیت رویه‌ای که او در گلچین و انتخاب آن کردن کتاب مذکور داشته است یک اصطلاح بسیار زیبای فارسی مصطلح‌ در زبان اردو را به کار گرفته و گفته است که مینورسکی «چیده‌چیده» از آن کتاب ترجه‌ کرده است. افسوس که چنین مصطلحات و الفاظ عالی پراکندهء فارسی در زبان‌های اردو و ترکی و بعض دیگر از السنه هند را جمع آوری نکرده‌ایم و فقط در خیال آنیم که در تنگنای‌ کمبود لغت،به لغت سازی بی‌معنی و من درآوردی که با «فرهنگ» ایرانی دیروز و امروز ارتباطی‌ ندارد روی آوریم،یا آنکه به پیروی از قدما و به تبعیت از عادت،در چنین مورد الفاظی نظیر «ملتطقات» یا «منتخبات» را به کار بریم...ببینید چقدر قشنگ و دلچسب است این الفاظ که در اردو از زبان فارسی گرفته شده: (دستیاب-موجود. همگانی زینه-پلهء اتفاقات، دستاویز-اسناد، چشمه-عینک).
> سفرنامه‌ای که برای سفر تازهء خود به پاکستان می‌خواهم بنویسم «چیده‌چیده» است. ​


eskandar SaaHib, thank you for bring in this excerpt from Iraj Afsahar. You will appreciate the use of "chiidah chiidah" here is, as far as my understanding goes, not the same as in the poem. If it was, I think it would be without "raa" to imply s/he was picking the choicest flowers. In Urdu, "chiidah chiidah" means (specially) selected. Here Auhadi is using "chiidah chiidah" in this sense (I think!).

میوۂ نا رسیدہ را چہ کنی
سُخن چیدہ چیدہ را چہ کنی


----------



## darush

Qureshpor said:


> ^ Thank you. In this case, why is "chiidah" repeated?


No problem! to me, it's just repeated to modify the length of the verse.


----------



## darush

> ...the sentence could be translated something like..
> 
> That newly arrived beauty (moon) was strolling in the garden. She had picked (various) flowers and was walking with dignity and grace (daaman-kashaan).


Thanks for translation, nice as ever.



> ...describing a series of pickings, one after another


I think(as I said before) it's just a modification


> ..."having picked".
> 
> Here is an example from "chahaar maqaalah"
> 
> کاردے بدست گرفتہ گفت
> 
> Having held a knife in his hand, he said. (More idiomatically, "Holding a knife in his hand, he said")
> 
> This, in essence is the same as:
> 
> گل ہا را چیدہ می رفت


I agree with you and Pakistani Khan; 'Having' is correct also, however they are grammatically different


> To emphasis the repetitiveness of the act, the poet has decided to repeat the word "chiidah".
> 
> So گل‌ها را چیده می رفت repeated a few times is being represented as:
> 
> گل‌ها را چیده چیده می رفت


No I don't agree


> If you know Urdu, this would be exactly equivalent to:
> 
> ٹہل رہا تھا باغ میں وہ ماہ نیا نیا آ کے
> اتراتے ہوئے جا رہا تھا پھول چن چن کے


Regards to Urdu speaking people...too sad,unfortunately I don't know Urdu


----------



## Qureshpor

Hopefully, a related question. In Urdu we use رفتہ رفتہ which is of course a Persian construction, to mean "gradually". Is this form used in Persian? Similarly, is the present participle used repeatedly as in کشان کشان ?


----------



## HZKhan

Qureshpor said:


> In Urdu we use رفتہ رفتہ which is of course a Persian construction, to mean "gradually". Is this form used in Persian?



The construction is included in the Dehkhoda's Dictionary, and I also found some of its examples in Classical Persian poetry:

از عزیزان رفته رفته شد تهی این خاکدان
یک تن از آیندگان نگرفت جای رفتگان
صائب تبریزی

گر چنین ابروی او ره می‌زند اصحاب را
رفته رفته طاق نیسان می‌کند محراب را
صائب تبریزی

رفته رفته بدر می‌گردد هلال ناتوان
سعی چاک جیب ما آخر به دامن می‌رسد
بیدل دهلوی



Qureshpor said:


> ...is the present participle used repeatedly as in کشان کشان ?



Based on what google suggests, کشان کشان بردن seems to be quite common in Persian.


----------



## Qureshpor

Pakistani Khan said:


> The construction is included in the Dehkhoda's Dictionary, and I also found some of its examples in Classical Persian poetry:
> 
> از عزیزان رفته رفته شد تهی این خاکدان
> یک تن از آیندگان نگرفت جای رفتگان
> صائب تبریزی
> 
> گر چنین ابروی او ره می‌زند اصحاب را
> رفته رفته طاق نیسان می‌کند محراب را
> صائب تبریزی
> 
> رفته رفته بدر می‌گردد هلال ناتوان
> سعی چاک جیب ما آخر به دامن می‌رسد
> بیدل دهلوی
> 
> Based on what google suggests, کشان کشان بردن seems to be quite common in Persian.


Thank you very much indeed for these examples. Much appreciated.


----------



## darush

.





> ..In Urdu we use رفتہ رفتہ which is of course a Persian construction, to mean "gradually". Is this form used in Persian?



Yes


> Similarly, is the present participle used repeatedly as in کشان کشان ?


Yes. 
Another Example: دوان دوان


----------



## Benyameen

My Afghan friend (from the village of Bazarak, Panjshir Valley) told me that this was written by a poet from the village of Khenj, Panjshir Valley, about a girl from Bazarak, Panjshir Valley.


----------



## Benyameen

A song by Panjshiri qarsak singer Sadiq Shabab based on this poem. I will try to post the name of the poet shortly.


----------

