# 羹



## cheshire

Q1:去商店碰了个闭门*羹*。Shops were all closed.

I consulted a dictionary, and it said 羹 means "thick soup". Why is this word used? Is it part of an idiom?

Q2: There is a sweet called 羊羹. Is it also a Chinese word?
I looked it up in a dictionary. 羹　means "thick soup". Was it originally a thick soup made from sheep?


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## xiaolijie

*闭门羹* is a phrase meaning "closed doors".
Yes, 羊羹 is a Chinese word, same as Japanese.


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## cheshire

Thanks!
(1) Why is the letter* 羹* used for the idiom *闭门羹*? 
(2) Is Chinese 羊羹 the same as Japanese 羊羹？　Ｉｓ it made from sheep soup?


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## samanthalee

I have wondered about 闭门羹 myself, but never got around to ask anyone.
A short search on google yields the following:


> *史凤之事迹*
> 史凤，宣城妓也，待客以等差。甚异者，有迷香洞、神鸡枕、锁莲灯；次则交红被、传香枕、八分羹；下列不相见，以闭门羹待之。使人致语曰：“请公梦中来。”冯垂客于凤，罄囊，有铜钱三十万，尽纳，得至迷香洞。题九迷诗于照春屏而归。
> - 始见于唐·冯贽《云仙杂记》（《宋史·艺文志》题作《云仙散录》）卷一“迷香洞”条所引《常新录》


I don't understand much Classical Chinese. But according to most websites that cite this passage, this is about a high class prostitute in Tang Dynasty who served only upper class clients. If a potential client asked for her and she deemed him unworthy of her notice, she'll sent him some 羹 as a subtle hint to "just go away".

The 羹 here does not mean soup, as this word in ancient time referred to meat, after which it meant vegetable, before finally coming to mean thick soup.

And that's how 羹 came to be used in 闭门羹.

----------------
羊羹, according to wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y%C5%8Dkan orginated from China.


> Originally a Chinese dish made from gelatin from boiled sheep. It was introduced to Japan by Zen Buddhists in the Kamakura and Muromachi periods. As Buddhism forbids the eating of meat, red bean paste was used instead. This modified form became the basis of modern yōkan.
> - *Yōkan. *Wikipedia.org. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yōkan


 It is further elaborated in the Wikipedia Chinese version that the Japanese method of manufacturing Yokan had deviated from the original Chinese method. And in modern times, the Chinese have adopted the Japanese method.


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## nichec

cheshire said:


> Thanks!
> (1) Why is the letter* 羹* used for the idiom *闭门羹*?
> (2) Is Chinese 羊羹 the same as Japanese 羊羹？　Ｉｓ it made from sheep soup?


 
But  羊羹 is a sweet solid thing, isn't it?


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## Flaminius

samanthalee said:


> The 羹 here does not mean soup, as this word in ancient time referred to meat, after which it meant vegetable, before finally coming to mean thick soup.


The most ancient meaning for 羹 is soup.  My Chinese character dictionary [新字源 1991/1968: Tokyo] says that the character was originally (enlarged for the sake of visibility);
鬻 but replace 米 with 羔.
This consists of  羔 (to mix) and «弓弓 above 鬲» (boil).  Later the radical for boil was replaced by 美.

One of the earliest uses of the character seems to support my point:
懲於羹者而吹齏兮 «楚辞»

The meat sense is not found in my dictionary.  Could it be a later development (admittedly my dictionary does not cover modern Chinese)?


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## nichec

I wonder...........

Perhaps dear *cheshire* got that idea from 肉羹麵?


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## samanthalee

Flaminius said:


> The most ancient meaning for 羹 is soup.
> 
> One of the earliest uses of the character seems to support my point:
> 懲於羹者而吹齏兮 «楚辞»
> The meat sense is not found in my dictionary. Could it be a later development (admittedly my dictionary does not cover modern Chinese)?


This poem by Qu Yuan indeed proved that 羹 meant soup during the Chinese Warring States Period, as it is now.

In 在线新华字典 http://xh.5156edu.com/html3/22427.html:
*羹 *
 古人的主要肉食是羊肉,所以用“羔”“美”会意,表示肉的味道鲜美。用肉或菜调和五味做成的带汁的食物。上古的“羹”,一般是指带汁的肉,而不是汤。“羹”表示汤的意思,是中古以后的事情。

It seems in Old Chinese [Archaic Chinese, till the middle of Han Dynasty], 羹 usually meant _meat_. It came to mean _soup_ only after Middle Chinese [Ancient Chinese, between the Han and Song Dynasties]. But then again, the Chinese Warring States Period is before the Han Dynasty, and yet Qu Yuan's poem used  羹 to refer to soup. Perhaps Qu Yuan was talking about meat, not soup; or perhaps the dictionary is wrong. Or maybe  羹 could mean both meat and soup.


Flaminius said:


> My Chinese character dictionary [新字源 1991/1968: Tokyo] says that the character was originally 鬻 but replace 米 with 羔.
> This consists of  羔 (to mix) and «弓弓 above 鬲» (boil).  Later the radical for boil was replaced by 美.




 The Chinese Etymology website's entry for 羹 didn't mention the 鬻 (replace 米 with 羔) character .

*
Edited:*


nichec said:


> But  羊羹 is a sweet solid thing, isn't it?


Yes, according to wikipedia, 羊羹 was originally made "from  gelatin from boiled sheep".



nichec said:


> Perhaps dear *cheshire* got that idea from 肉羹麵?


Cheshire wasn't the one Flaminius was referring to; he's talking about my comment in Post #4: "this word in ancient time referred to meat, after which it meant vegetable, before finally coming to mean thick soup."


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## Flaminius

Hello everyone,

The etymology is a bit stickier than I first imagined.  I will look it up in a more authoritative dictionary later, but here are two points of interest.

First, 


> The Chinese Etymology website's entry for 羹 didn't mention the 鬻 (replace 米 with 羔) character .


It certainly doesn't but I suspect the seal character L10243 attests to the etymology I found in my dictionary.  The upper part of the character is neither 羊 nor 羔.  It is in fact closer to 鬻.

Second, an important pointer is given in Chinese Wikipedia s.v. 羊羹:


> 初期，羊羹的確是一種加入羊肉煮成的羹湯，再冷卻成凍佐餐。後期羊羹傳至日本，但在鐮倉時代至室町時代佛教的禪宗傳入，由於僧侶戒律不能食葷，故羊羹亦慢慢演化成為一種以豆類製成的果凍形食品。


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## AVim

Flaminius said:


> The most ancient meaning for 羹 is soup.  My Chinese character dictionary [新字源 1991/1968: Tokyo] says that the character was originally (enlarged for the sake of visibility);
> 鬻 but replace 米 with 羔.
> This consists of  羔 (to mix) and «弓弓 above 鬲» (boil).  Later the radical for boil was replaced by 美.
> 
> One of the earliest uses of the character seems to support my point:
> 懲於羹者而吹齏兮 «楚辞»
> 
> The meat sense is not found in my dictionary.  Could it be a later development (admittedly my dictionary does not cover modern Chinese)?



"Replace 米 with 羔" is acceptable.

Replacing "«弓弓 above 鬲» (boil)" with 美 is *inappropriate*. Since the etymology of 美 (beautiful) has no meaning of a caldron or similar container.

羹 is 会意字(by knowing and understanding), which means "nice (delicious) lamb"
鬻 is 形声字(by pictograph or phonogram), which means "the rice is being boiled in a caldron"

So, I don't think they share the same origin.


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## nichec

samanthalee said:


> This poem by Qu Yuan indeed proved that 羹 meant soup during the Chinese Warring States Period, as it is now.
> 
> In 在线新华字典 http://xh.5156edu.com/html3/22427.html:
> *羹 *
> 古人的主要肉食是羊肉,所以用“羔”“美”会意,表示肉的味道鲜美。用肉或菜调和五味做成的带汁的食物。上古的“羹”,一般是指带汁的肉,而不是汤。“羹”表示汤的意思,是中古以后的事情。
> 
> It seems in Old Chinese [Archaic Chinese, till the middle of Han Dynasty], 羹 usually meant _meat_. It came to mean _soup_ only after Middle Chinese [Ancient Chinese, between the Han and Song Dynasties]. But then again, the Chinese Warring States Period is before the Han Dynasty, and yet Qu Yuan's poem used 羹 to refer to soup. Perhaps Qu Yuan was talking about meat, not soup; or perhaps the dictionary is wrong. Or maybe 羹 could mean both meat and soup.
> 
> 
> 
> The Chinese Etymology website's entry for 羹 didn't mention the 鬻 (replace 米 with 羔) character .
> 
> 
> *Edited:*
> 
> Yes, according to wikipedia, 羊羹 was originally made "from gelatin from boiled sheep".
> 
> 
> Cheshire wasn't the one Flaminius was referring to; he's talking about my comment in Post #4: "this word in ancient time referred to meat, after which it meant vegetable, before finally coming to mean thick soup."


 
Hmmmmmmmmm.....I was thinking............(always risky )

We say "洗手作羹湯" when a woman gets married and gives up her career. If 羹 already contains 湯, then why bother using 2 words?

But then again, lots of Chinese terms use some words for no additional meaning at all...................

Nowadays, when you order something with the word 羹 inside, you can always expect that some very thick soup will come with it. It doesn't look like the "normal soup" at all, it's very thick, more like the kind of soup they serve in supper in Europe, like Italian vegetable soup.




Nice new avatar,* cheshire*, this one looks like a king/queen.


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## Flaminius

AVim said:


> "Replace 米 with 羔" is acceptable.
> 
> Replacing "«弓弓 above 鬲» (boil)" with 美 is *inappropriate*. Since the etymology of 美 (beautiful) has no meaning of a caldron or similar container.
> 
> 羹 is 会意字(by knowing and understanding), which means "nice (delicious) lamb"
> 鬻 is 形声字(by pictograph or phonogram), which means "the rice is being boiled in a caldron"
> 
> So, I don't think they share the same origin.


That 羹 was originally "鬻 (replace 米 with 羔)" comes straight from 說文解字 (in case the link is expired search the database for 羹).   It is a pity but you may need a Mac to properly display the page (at least my PC could not display important characters properly).  This seems to be ephigraphically attested (Cf. the seal character L10243).  Another source says that «弓弓 above 鬲» is a pictogram for the steaming cauldron.

*Sam*:
The ancient definition you quoted (带汁的食物 or 带汁的肉) seems very amenable to 許愼's etymology (if one could discuss etymology of a character...)!  Perhaps it is my English but "meat" does not strike me as a satisfactory word to describe 羹.  I am sorry if I caused confusion.


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## AVim

Flaminius said:


> That 羹 was originally "鬻 (replace 米 with 羔)" comes straight from 說文解字 (in case the link is expired search the database for 羹).



Hmm, nice found! However, I think Mr Xu3 only tells us that '羹' might originally be written in the form of '<弓弓 above 鬲> + 羔', but he didn't told anything about the relationships between 粥 and 羹. 

The point is how did you conclude that "羹 was originally "鬻 (replace 米 with 羔)" while not 粥 was originally 羹 (replacing 羔 with 米)? Which one is the father, any evidences? 




Flaminius said:


> It is a pity but you may need a Mac to properly display the page (at least my PC could not display important characters properly).



That's ok, on PC with windows, GB18030 + UniFonts will do the job. 

Acknowledgment
UniFonts is the font pack of 海峰五笔 [海峰五筆] Chinese input freeware written by 孙海峰 (See wikipedia article). The 海峰五笔 freeware homepage is at http://okuc.net/sunwb/


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## Flaminius

Hello again, *AVim*

I have checked several dictionaries with reputedly erudite etymologies but could not find anything new.  If there were instances of 羹 in 甲骨 or 金文 texts, we might have been able to determine which of the two is older, but there doesn't seem any.  As far as I am concerned, there is no evidence to disagree with 許愼's etymology.  Any which way, I think we can all agree that the soup sense of 羹 is no earlier than the Tang Dynasty.

One dictionary explained the original meaning of 羹 as (quite similar to Sam's #8) that 羹 was a watery, juicy or moist food made of flavoured meat or vegetable.  Given the etymology of 說文解字 and how the word is used in many instances such as 懲於羹者而吹齏兮, the food was boiled and most likely served while it is still hot.  There is no knowing how exactly 羹 was cooked but considerable heat can explain how 羊羹 was originally coagulated gelatin.

*nichec* mentioned 羹湯.  The same dictionary I referred to above defines 湯 (after Tang) as very watery soup.  The expression, therefore, is thick soup and thin soup.

Cf. 漢辞海 1999/2006: Tokyo.


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