# Sourdough, masa madre



## El guirizano de Jerez

Sourdough en español es masa madre. De dónde viene la traducción?


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## Amapolas

Creería que no es una traducción reciente de _sourdough_ sino que es así como se la llamó toda la vida. Sería como pensar que _sourdough_ es una traducción de masa madre, pero no es así; simplemente es como se la llamó siempre en inglés.


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## ChemaSaltasebes

El guirizano de Jerez said:


> De dónde viene la traducción?


That is a very curious question; can you explain what do you mean to ask?


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## Bonjules

El término inglés enfatiza el sabor ágrio, el españól la capacidad de propagarla (esa mescla que se llama 'sourdough starter'en inglés) para siempre/indefinidamente (con un poquito de cuido y la temperatura correcta).


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## rajulbat

In the Encyclopedia of Food Microbiology, Michael Gaenzle writes: "The origins of bread-making are so ancient that everything said about them must be pure speculation. One of the oldest sourdough breads dates from 3700 BCE and was excavated in Switzerland, but *the origin of sourdough fermentation likely relates to the origin of agriculture in the Fertile Crescent several thousand years earlier*", which was confirmed a few years later by archeological evidence. "_Bread production relied on the use of sourdough as a leavening agent for most of human history_; the use of baker's yeast as a leavening agent dates back less than 150 years."  Gaenzle, Michael (1 April 2014). "Sourdough Bread". In Batt, Carl (ed.). _Encyclopedia of Food Microbiology_ (2nd ed.). Academic Press. p. 309. ISBN 978-0123847300.

So, if I had to guess, and it would only be pure speculation as Gaenzle aptly points out in the quote above, it would be because it is the mother of all breads, i.e., the first one, the one that gave birth to the rest of them.

And as also aptly pointed out by the foreros above, it is not that masa madre is a translation _from_ sourdough or vice versa, but rather that Spanish and English both have independently developed words for bread leavened naturally through fermentation: one alludes to its sour taste whereas the other alludes to its ancientness.


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## El guirizano de Jerez

ChemaSaltasebes said:


> That is a very curious question; can you explain what do you mean to ask?


Ya, I'm just curious as regards the "madre" part...


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## El guirizano de Jerez

rajulbat said:


> In the Encyclopedia of Food Microbiology, Michael Gaenzle writes: "The origins of bread-making are so ancient that everything said about them must be pure speculation. One of the oldest sourdough breads dates from 3700 BCE and was excavated in Switzerland, but *the origin of sourdough fermentation likely relates to the origin of agriculture in the Fertile Crescent several thousand years earlier*", which was confirmed a few years later by archeological evidence. "_Bread production relied on the use of sourdough as a leavening agent for most of human history_; the use of baker's yeast as a leavening agent dates back less than 150 years."  Gaenzle, Michael (1 April 2014). "Sourdough Bread". In Batt, Carl (ed.). _Encyclopedia of Food Microbiology_ (2nd ed.). Academic Press. p. 309. ISBN 978-0123847300.
> 
> So, if I had to guess, and it would only be pure speculation as Gaenzle aptly points out in the quote above, it would be because it is the mother of all breads, i.e., the first one, the one that gave birth to the rest of them.
> 
> And as also aptly pointed out by the foreros above, it is not that masa madre is a translation _from_ sourdough or vice versa, but rather that Spanish and English both have independently developed words for bread leavened naturally through fermentation: one alludes to its sour taste whereas the other alludes to its ancientness.


Thanks a million. That's makes total sense!


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## aldonzalorenzo

El guirizano de Jerez said:


> Ya, I'm just curious as regards the "madre" part...


We also say "células madre", "stem cells".


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## Circunflejo

El guirizano de Jerez said:


> I'm just curious as regards the "madre" part...


Madre means, in the right context, the origin/source of something.


rajulbat said:


> And as also aptly pointed out by the foreros above, it is not that masa madre is a translation _from_ sourdough or vice versa, but rather that Spanish and English both have independently developed words for bread leavened naturally through fermentation: one alludes to its sour taste whereas the other alludes to its ancientness.


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## Bonjules

Circunflejo said:


> Madre means, in the right context, the origin/source of something.


Yes, but in this context it doesn't mean 'ancientness' (like you are quoting @rajulbat
) but, like 'celulas madre' the capacity of continued _propagation_ from the source
(the starter mix in your kitchen).
It helps to know a little about how sourdough bread is made.


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## Circunflejo

Bonjules said:


> Yes, but in this context it doesn't mean 'ancientness' (like you are quoting @rajulbat
> ) but, like 'celulas madre' the capacity of continued _propagation_ from the source
> (the starter mix in your kitchen).


Yes, but as I read @rajulbat's words, s/he didn't say that it meant ancientess but that it alluded ancientness and a masa madre is more ancient than any of the masas that resulted from it so I can see how it can allude to ancientness although I guess it's just a matter of points of view.


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## Mr.Dent

So, sourdough bread in Spanish is _pan de masa madre_?


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## Bonjules

We'll have to wait for the natives; I'm not sure there is a common term for it.
It seems to be more of a Northern/Central European and N. American thing.


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## Amapolas

Mr.Dent said:


> So, sourdough bread in Spanish is _pan de masa madre_?


That’s right.


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## Mr.Dent

Amapolas said:


> That’s right.


Thanks.


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## Circunflejo

Mr.Dent said:


> So, sourdough bread in Spanish is _pan de masa madre_?


Yes, and in Spain it's regulated by law. If it doesn't have a minimum of 99.8% of masa madre, it can't be called pan de masa madre.


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## Bonjules

Circunflejo said:


> Yes, and in Spain it's regulated by law. If it doesn't have a minimum of 99.8% of masa madre, it can't be called pan de masa madre.


Wow! how would they know or be able to measure this so exactly. After all, the amount of your 'starter culture'  is small in comparison to
the amout of flower you use for each bread. Not an exact process!


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## Circunflejo

Bonjules said:


> Wow! how would they know or be able to measure this so exactly.


Measuring the Ph of the crumb. It must be 4.8 or lower. Just a clarification to my previous post because I think that I was mistaken (sorry), the maximum of added leaven that can have a pan de masa madre is 0.2% of the weight of all the flour used on the final _masa_. I thought the rest should be masa madre but reading the law, I see that it says that masa madre must be minimum 5% of the total weight of the flour of the final _masa _(no additives allowed) and meet some other requirements (mainly Ph related).


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## Bonjules

Circunflejo said:


> Measuring the Ph of the crumb. It must be 4.8 or lower. .....


That makes a lot more sense. Still, it would seem fairly easy to cheat by just adding a little acidity like I do when I make my 'quick bread' simply adding
 a little vingar and the juice of a 'naranja ágria' to my mix which contains baking soda as leavening agent. By adding just a tad more than necessary
I get a slightly sour flavor which reminds me of sourdough....(maintaining a SD culture in th Tropics is difficult because of the ambient temperature)


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## jilar

El guirizano de Jerez said:


> Sourdough en español es masa madre. De dónde viene la traducción?


A ver cómo te quedas cuando veas que "paja", o "pajilla", significa _handjob_.

Hombre, verlo como un t*rabajillo manual*, pues bien, incluso se entendería en español con el contexto debido, pero por qué job y no fun (handfun) por ejemplo.  Desde el punto de vista de quien la recibe, claro.
O pleasure.


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## berndf

El guirizano de Jerez said:


> Ya, I'm just curious as regards the "madre" part...


I don't know it you have ever made sourdough bread yourself. For people familiar with the process*, the term _masa madre _is immediately intuitive: Strictly speaking, _masa madre_ is not _sourdough_ but what in English is called _sourdough starter_. The _starter _is a small quantity of _sourdough _you carry over from one baking day to the next. The day before the baking day, you add flour and water to the starter (the "mother" of the sourdough, so to speak) and let it ferment overnight. This produces the sourdough for the bread. Before you add the sourdough to the fresh dough, you put a little bit to the side and that is the starter for the your next sourdough. These starters can be very old, years or even decades and can be passed down from one generation of bakers to the next. Different starters ("mothers") give the bread different tastes. Bakers experiment with different cultures of sourdough starters and when they like one particularly, they will carry those over from one backing day to the next to the next to the next,... That is also why sourdough bread always tastes a bit different from bakery to bakery. At least in old fashioned bakeries that still make their doughs themselves and don't use industrial doughs. Starters get stronger over time and to make bread from fresh dough and sourdough alone, you need a relatively old starter, usually several months at least. For bread from young sourdough starter (a few weeks) you have to add additional yeast to make it rise.
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*_This is one of the things I used the extra time for the pandemic gave to most of us: I started making my own sourdough._


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## El guirizano de Jerez

jilar said:


> A ver cómo te quedas cuando veas que "paja", o "pajilla", significa _handjob_.
> 
> Hombre, verlo como un t*rabajillo manual*, pues bien, incluso se entendería en español con el contexto debido, pero por qué job y no fun (handfun) por ejemplo.  Desde el punto de vista de quien la recibe, claro.
> O pleasure.


No te olvides del inglés para "un francés" tampoco...


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