# Adoption of British names in Brazil?



## Alchemy

As title says. Something I've noticed over the years, and was wondering if anyone here could shed some light on this? I've noticed that it's usually the surnames that I see all the time in my country that end in _son _becoming first names in Brazil. I'm hoping this hasn't been discussed already.


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## palomnik

Actually, I think that this is more than just a fad or a trend. Anglo-Saxon surnames being used as given names in Brazil is a long-standing custom. There are Nelson Rodriguez (playwright in the fifties), Wilson Martins (literary critic), Nelson de Araujo (novelist in the seventies), Nelson Pereira dos Santos (film director), Baden Powell de Aquino (guitarist). They're not necessarily taken from England; Washington Luis was president of Brazil from 1926 to 1930.

It's probably only fair to indicate that this phenomenon is not only limited to Brazil, but can be found in other areas of South America, most notably Uruguay: Washington Benevidez (Uruguayan writer), Washington Beltran (president of Uruguay, 1965).

I'm sure I'm missing a bunch of other names just as well or better known.


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## Vanda

I agree with Palomnik, I think it is just a fad that has already gone. From time to  time some particular names appear according to the moment: soccer (all Ronaldos, for example), race car champions (Nelson Piquet, Emerson Fittipaldi), soap opera stars, to mention some. 
In the past before the TV phenomenon they were from famous politicians. 
Nelson, for instance, might have begun with Admiral Nelson. We have plenty of Washingtons, Emersons, Edmilsons, and so on.


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## Dom Casmurro

This phenomenon is not confined to Anglo-saxon names. French names used to be very popular, and we can see so many Victor Hugo around that we tend to forget about the original. There is a soccer player whose name is Alain Delon, and I had a co-worker called De Gaulle. Celebrities in general are source of many an inspiration for names. There is a reputable doctor called Luiz Beethoven, and a soccer player Alan Kardec.

But the funniest story I've heard about such names came from Mossoró, a town in the Northeastern state of Rio Grande do Norte, home of the wealthy Rosado family. Their patriarch decided that all his chidren and grand children would bear French numeral names. Accordingly, the first to be born under that rule was christened Un Rosado, the second, Deux Rosado, the third, Trois Rosado and so on and so forth. The # 18 of that dinasty, Dix-Huit Rosado, became a Senator, and was influential nationwide. But the luckiest of all Rosados was, without a doubt, pretty # 13. Treize Rosado was a young lady who took part in a local pageant and, much to the joy of her elders, was crowned Miss Mossoró.

P.S.: by googling under "Dix-Huit Rosado", I have just found out that an important theatre in Mossoró was named after him.


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## Macunaíma

This phenomenon is more common in the lower classes today (Portuguese names seem to be coming into fashion again). Feminine names ending in _-e _to make them look French used to be _chic_ -_Caroline_ instead of _Carolina_, and so on. French names like _Alain_, _Gisele_, _Pierre _can still be easily found in Brazil. One thing that is arguably even more strange about English surnames used as first names in Brazil are names ending in _-ton_, a suffix used in English for the name of towns. There is a guy at my work called _Clayton_ (_Cidade de Argila_). It's just a fad, though. It won't be long until it disappears.


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## Outsider

There are some names like Edilson or Jerson (some of which I think don't even exist in English), that are formed with the Germanic or North Germanic patronymic suffix _-son_. 
Nelson is a fairly popular name in Portugal too, though, and has been so for decades.


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## falc

There´s a lot of British, German, French... names in Brazil or in all the Spaniard America. Just becuase people likes exotic names.
This phaenomenon is most important in Cuba. I met people called Osiris, Yusimit, Boris, Marisleisis, John...


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## avok

But why surnames become first names??? If someone likes George Washington, would not it be wiser to call their child "george" rather than Washington?


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## Dom Casmurro

Washington is more imposing than George. And... well... George is the founding father's first name alright, but it is also the name of the present President...


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## Macunaíma

avok said:


> But why surnames become first names??? If someone likes George Washington, would not it be wiser to call their child "george" rather than Washington?


 
One reason is possibly because it's common for people in the English-speaking world to address one another by their last names in more formal circumstances, which is unusual in Brazil. So, one hears _Mr. Washington_ more often than _George_. Also, not all English names ending in _-son_ are family names. _Alison_ is a good example: it's a very popular name in the US (and, to our amazement, it's a female name).

The most popular English surmanes used as first names in Brazil are probably _Wellington_, _Washington_, _Ad(d)ison_ (I have a friend with this name), _Wilson_ and _Nelson_.

The German _Wagner_ is quite popular as a first name too, and I've seen _Guthemberg, Mozart_ and _Lutero_ (Luther) as well.


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## Horazio

Uruguayan checking in :
Yes , in Uruguay it was common. Maybe it still is,mostly for the lower class.
Even if it's common,it's also considered tacky.


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## Porteño

I noticed this phenomenon when I lived in Brazil but it seemed to be restricted to the less privileged classes. Many of my employees bore names like Washington, Wagner, Nelson, etc. and I always thought it rather strange. Is it really a passing fad? It seemed to be pretty well established when I was there (1969-1981).


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## Vanda

Yes, Porteño, now it is not "in" anymore, although you can still find some children named like that. When you were here your employees might have been over 20 years, right? In the last 15 to 10 years, TV and soccer - mainly -  dictates fashion, names, behavior, and so on.


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## ronanpoirier

Well, I'm Ronan (Irish name) and I have a brother called Taner (have anyone thought of _Tanner_ last name?).  And we don't have Irish blood to give some kind of family background justification. But I would not like to be called Alexej (Czech), or Hans (German) or João (Portuguese). I like my name! 

I don't think it's weird choosing foreign names. I'm only affraid when they try to match the pronunciation to the spelling so we get some scaring stuff. And it gets worse when they try to add some weird "y" and "h". Maybe it's for Numerology.


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## Porteño

Vanda said:


> Yes, Porteño, now it is not "in" anymore, although you can still find some children named like that. When you were here your employees might have been over 20 years, right? In the last 15 to 10 years, TV and soccer - mainly - dictates fashion, names, behavior, and so on.


 
I'm very relieved to hear that, as long as they are Brazilian!


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## Porteño

Yes, indeed ronanpoirier, Tanner is not an uncommon surname in the UK and originates from those who cured leather - tanners.


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## Nanon

As Palomnik and Falk already mentioned, this phenomenon is also common in Spanish-speaking countries. I am honoured to be personally acquainted _- inter alia - _with a Benjamin Franklin in Venezuela. I also met a Nixon, a Stalin and a Rommel...  

Names of regions or countries can be found too - Argelia, Bélgica, Bretaña, Grecia, Francia... and América Latina, why not? And there are no limits to creativity for inventing names.


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## Porteño

It has not been so common here in Argentina, probably because for many years the law required that foreign names be translatable into Spanish.


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## avok

The only example I can come up with, in Turkey, is the name "Fidel" (fidel castro) given to some children over the years. But just fidel not the castro part. According to this news in year 2003, more parents named their kids "fidel" than those who named their kids "tayyip" (tayyip is the name of our president)


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## Macunaíma

Nanon said:


> Names of regions or countries can be found too - Argelia, Bélgica, Bretaña, Grecia, Francia... and América Latina, why not?


 

As for geografic names, I've only seen _Israel_ and _Iran_ here. 

Another thing that propably puzzles foreigners is that the letter *W* in those English names is often pronounced as *V*, probably due to the influence of German surmanes, not uncommon here. _Wilson_ is frequently pronounced _Vilson_, _Walter _as _Valter_, etc. (Wellington and Washington are exceptions, they are always pronounced here as they are in English). To add to all this confusion, the same happens to German names, sometimes pronounced as if they were English: _Weber_ becomes _Uéber_, _Wolfgang_ becomes _Uúlfgang_ (not that I've met any Brazilian called Wolfgang!). Not to mention names used by the wrong gender: _Sasha_ for girls, for example.

In the XIX century there was criticism of the adoption of French names in Brazil, especially for women (like _Desirée_ ). Now most are virtually extinct. The same will probably happen with English names, but it's inevitable that other fads will come because, let's face it, Portuguese names are so repetitive! I've seen little boys with names such as _Enzo_ (Italian), _Cauã_ (Tupi), _Raoni _(Caiapó), and girls called _Mayara_ (Tupi), _Yara_ (Tupi) and many more I don't remember now. But surnames used as first names, I think that only happens with English and German ones.


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## Outsider

I think you guys should revive some more Amerindian names. That would be cool.


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## ronanpoirier

Macunaíma said:
			
		

> As for geografic names, I've only seen _Israel_ and _Iran_ here.



Interesting. I've seen _Georgia_, _Atenas_, _Louisiana_, _Itália_ and once on a magazine I saw a woman named _Zelândia_! _


_But to all the preganant woman I've talked to, they are now choosing more "common" names to their kids, such as _Lucas_, _Eduardo_, _Felipe_ and _Tiago_. I guess that is just tendency. In some years we'll have a new one.


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## palomnik

Outsider said:


> I think you guys should revive some more Amerindian names. That would be cool.


 
Whew!  Half of the place names in São Paulo are Amerindian.  I think that's enough!


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## Alchemy

I'm English with a Scottish background from my father's side. My surname is Wilson and my cousins from Brazil like to remind me how common my surname is in their country and how much they dislike it!


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## Porteño

OK, palomnik, but we're talking about people's names. It seems that you are complaining about the number of Amerindian names in São Paulo and I wonder why that might be?


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## palomnik

Porteño said:


> OK, palomnik, but we're talking about people's names. It seems that you are complaining about the number of Amerindian names in São Paulo and I wonder why that might be?


 
They're hard to pronounce. And keep straight.

Seriously, though, I always thought that there was something patronizing about it rather than a true tribute.

Rather like the way in the USA they name the major street in every black neighborhood after Martin Luther King.  It makes me wish that New York City would rename Park Avenue after Martin Luther King.

But I'm digressing.


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## Macunaíma

Alchemy said:


> I'm English with a Scottish background from my father's side. My surname is Wilson and my cousins from Brazil like to remind me how common my surname is in their country and how much they dislike it!


It doesn't make sense to me... If your Brazilian cousins look on the bright side, they will see that, if people are using it, it means they like it! 



palomnik said:


> Seriously, though, I always thought that there was something patronizing about it rather than a true tribute.


 
That's wide of the mark. Some of the most beautiful names of towns in Brazil are indigenous or mixed between indigenous and Portuguese - _*Ubá* _(the town where Vanda was born, by the way), _*Araçuaí*,_ _*Santa Maria do Suaçuí* (because of the River Suaçuí),* Sabará*, *Aimorés*, *Campos dos* *Goitacazes*, *Goiás Velho*, *Itaipava*, *Mantiqueira*, *Serinhaém*_... And besides, until the early 18th century, the _Língua Geral_ (Tupi-Guarani) was the most commonly spoken, even by the white, in São Paulo. _Bandeirantes_ (explorers) of that time like *Fernão Dias Paes Leme*, *Manuel de Borba Gato*, etc., all of them white and of noble lineage, used the _Língua Geral_ as their everyday language. Needless to say, they founded many, many cities, including the aforementioned Sabará, in Minas Gerais.

But, back to topic, isn't there any foreign names/surnames that are used in English in, say, an unusual way?


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## Jaén

Macunaíma said:


> The most popular English surmanes used as first names in Brazil are probably _Wellington_, _Washington_, _Ad(d)ison_ (I have a friend with this name), _Wilson_ and _Nelson_.


 
*Don't forget the name Sidnei (Sidney sometimes)*.



Macunaíma said:


> _Wilson_ is frequently pronounced _Vilson_, _Walter _as _Valter_, etc. (Wellington and Washington are exceptions, they are always pronounced here as they are in English).


 
Don't forget *Valdisnei*. Certainly none of our non-Brazilian friends here  (and many Brazilians as well) can even think of the origin of this name.

Walt Disney = Valdisnei, for some illiterate mother who heard it over there. on TV, perhaps.


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## avok

> Originally Posted by *Macunaíma*
> It doesn't make sense to me... If your Brazilian cousins look on the bright side, they will see that, if people are using it, it means they like it!


 
I guess His cousins dont like it not all brazilians.

There is one thing I dont quite catch. Why do you say that this is/was a fad among the lower classes? I thought lower classes would be more conservative thus feel more comfortable with typical luso-catholic names.


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## palomnik

Macunaíma said:


> But, back to topic, isn't there any foreign names/surnames that are used in English in, say, an unusual way?


 
Actually, I can't think of a particular surname that has become a major trend, at least in the USA.  Of course, there is a tradition, primarily among Protestants, of using your mother's maiden name as a first name.  It has a very distinguished ring to it.

Aside from that, there are some unusual first names.  Oddly enough, there seems to be a tendency to use place names, particularly among white Americans; there are a considerable number of kids getting named Dakota or Montana nowadays.

The most noticeable trend, however, is an increasing difference in the names that blacks and whites tend to give their children, to the point that you can usually tell somebody's race by looking at their name any more.  In the USA it's illegal to attach photographs with a CV, due to anti-discrimination laws; unfortunately, people's names often tell their racial background anyway.

The worst case of a given name I ever heard here in the States was the poor kid named Sh*thead - which, his parents pointedly said, was pronounced shuh-TEED.


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## Outsider

We talked about American names in an earlier thread.


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## Porteño

I certainly have never come across the use of a foreign surname as a first name in the UK. If anyone has an example of this it would be very interesting. In fact the Brits tend to be very conservative with names, unlike our American cousins who are very inventive. Years ago, especially among the less-privileged classes, there used to be a trend of naming children after the latest Royal child. I don't know whether that still continues, but I would hope not. Did those people expect some glory to rub off on their own issue?


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## Dom Casmurro

avok said:


> Why do you say that this is/was a fad among the lower classes? I thought lower classes would be more conservative thus feel more comfortable with typical luso-catholic names.


Families of higher classes usually bear pompous surnames that instantly command respect, prestige and power. In contrast, the surnames of most of the poor families in Brazil usually reveal their humble origin. Silva and Santos are among those; both abound in Brazil, and are biasedly associated with poor families - or, if no longer poor, with a modest background.

Out of sheer naiveté, lower class parents try to compensate the lack of lustre in their children's surnames through giving them first names that are artificially pompous and, better still, foreign, royal (Elizabeth, Charles, Soraya, Kayser), foundingfatherly (Washington), heroic (Wellington, Nelson), ideological (Lenin or Lenine, Mussolini), literary (Byron, Victor Hugo, Milton, Chateubriand), musical (Mozart, Wagner), genius- (Newton, Freud, Edson) and celebrity-inspired (Marilyn, Elvis, Brigitte). 

To make things worse, names are freely invented, frequently with a foreign 'accent'. One of Brazil's rising soccer stars, Richarlyson, does not owe anything to his name to be better off, but I bet his mother still believes he does.


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## avok

I understand the idea of giving your child the name of a hero but is not there Brazilian heroes??? What did Washington do for Brazil? and why just American heroes? Do you have Ataturks too (our national hero) I guess not


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## Macunaíma

These names are given occasionally, with no intent to pay a homage to anybody, and most frequently by people who knows little about History, etc. It's not political.

There are heroes in Brazilian history (forged heroes, like pretty much all heroes), but if you name your child Pedro, Joaquim, etc., it will pass as an ordinary name, not as a homage to a hero you might have had in mind when you chose the name.


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## avok

Pedro, Joaquim are ordinary (spanish, I guess). But I just think that names like Magellan/Magalhães, Columbus/Colombo are pompous


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## Jaén

Of course, there are many many famous and acknowledged name in the world or Brazilian history, but they don't seem to be pompous to them, or maybe never heard those names before!


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## Dom Casmurro

avok said:


> Pedro, Joaquim are ordinary (spanish, I guess).


They are 100% Portuguese



avok said:


> But I just think that names like Magellan/Magalhães, Columbus/Colombo


As Macunaíma put it, this naming craze is not about paying hommage. In 99% of the cases, the parents don't have the faintest idea who Washington is or was. They pick that name just because it's pompous, that's all. 

You are asking why they don't choose Brazilian heroes to name their children after, and the easy answer is, again: this is not about paying hommage.This is about sounding foreign and sounding great. Magalhães, for instance - no matter how great the Portuguese explorer that you have in mind was - is but an ordinary surname in Brazil. It just doesn't sound as great as Wellington.


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## avok

I understand it better....But how come simple men who dont know any history come to a conclusion that Anglo names "Washington, Wellington" are pompous. I am not a stupid man but I dont even know who Wellington is. Where did those simple men hear the names Wellington etc..


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## Brioche

avok said:


> I am not a stupid man but I don't even know who Wellington is. Where did those simple men hear the names Wellington etc..



Have you heard of Napoléon, or of the Battle of Waterloo?

The Duke of Wellington, with the assistance of the Prussian von Blücher, defeated Napoleon at the Battle of Waterloo in 1815.
Waterloo was Napoléon's final defeat.

Wellington was also twice Prime Minister of Britain.


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## Dom Casmurro

avok said:


> I understand it better....But how come simple men who dont know any history come to a conclusion that Anglo names "Washington, Wellington" are pompous. I am not a stupid man but I dont even know who Wellington is. Where did those simple men hear the names Wellington etc..


They might be simple alright, but they are not primitive. They are exposed to those names one way or another, and no one can afford to take a guess on how they come across with them. Just keep in mind, though, how intense and caring the name picking process is for any pregant woman and her husband. They want their brand new baby to have the most beautiful, the most glorious, the most respect commanding name of all. And they take a lot of time thinking about it, considering and reconsidering upon a vast array of options. They talk to friends, they check newspapers in search of any word that starts with capital letters, and all at a sudden, in a dull moment during the nine long months, in a very accidental way the father or the mother stumble onto the ultimate choice: AVOK!! Bingo! 

This is how AVOK, a potential Brazilian soccer star, still to be born, will someday in the long future amaze the world with his skills.


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## avok

Pleaseeee no! Avok is not a name!! I just made it up, it does not mean anything at all  
I am sorry but I am not still convinced.. how come those village people were exposed to names like Wellington whatever... and they are anglo-saxon names, this just can't be a coincidence. How can "o senhor perreira" know the name of twice Prime Minister of Britain?  I think one can take a guess but I am not brazilian so I cant 

By the way when I said that names like Magellan/Magalhães, Columbus/Colombo can also be well pompous, I meant them as a "first name" not a surname. As a surname there,of course, must be many Magalhaes. I guess Magalhaes da silva is more pompous than Wellington da Silva  Thank you Brioche for the news,


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## Dom Casmurro

Why are you assuming they are villagers? A great majority of them might well be people living in big cities, being exposed to information available in newspapers, school books, old foreign magazines found in dusty basements, envelopes addressed to someone in Wellington, New Zealand, etc. Take street names, for instance. I googled for "rua Wellington", "avenida Wellington", and "praça Wellington", and found streets, avenues and squares bearing the name Wellington in many Brazilian cities. 

Anyway, as my last post implies, don't underestimate the determination of parents who feverishly do their utmost to find a 'suitable' name for their children. They can do things that you, from Turkey, and even I can't understand. It's a matter of raising the social status of their children. Is there anything more important than that?

And of course, when the first little Wellington is christened as such, many others are expected to follow. One day, when you least expect it, Wellington becomes a well rooted 'Brazilian name'.

Cheers!


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## avok

Hi,
No, I dont underestimate it -I am not against it I am just (too) curious  If I underestimated it I would not even care about this thread. I am just curious. 

I still cant understand the relation between Anglo-saxon names and the Brazilian society. I guess I never shall. If those anglo saxon names were popular in Germany, Sweden, Holland etc.. I would not be curious. Dont get me wrong but in a hot, spicy, latin country like Brazil, a first name like Washington is just funny (but not in a bad way)

I have assumed they were villagers because of the other posters from brazil.



> And of course, when the first little Wellington is christened as such, many others are expected to follow. One day, when you least expect it, Wellington becomes a well rooted 'Brazilian name'.


 
That makes sense. So, many people take it for granted.

Ciao


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## Vanda

The very first Wellingtons, Wilsons, Washingtons' names in Brasil were born in middle class families whose parents went to school and knew world history. I had (he is dead right now) a close friend called Lincoln César born in a wealthy intelectual family. Remember, as I have said before, those were the days before TV and the like so there is nothing to do with "ignorant parents" giving their children pompous name. They were honouring those men because of their role in history: all Napoleões, Lincolns, Césares (by the way what about of all Caesars born in anglo-saxon countries as well as in Latino countries just to mention some?). 
After that first pioneers - those whose name were a homage to the "great men in history"  - then others begun to name their children because of relatives with those names, because they found it interesting, because of important persons, stars and so on till it all turned into a fad. A fad that went way to give place to Ronaldos, Robertos, etc.


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## faranji

My favourite Brazilian name has to be that of the relatively unknown football player (he's quite averagish) *Creedence Clearwater Couto*, a forward who used to play for Guarani and is currently playing in Belgium. 

There's also a footy player named *John Lennon Dias*. I read an interview where he explained he was named so "after a famous TV presenter or something like that, from long ago, whom my dad was fond of."

And the best player in my street is a 13-year boy named Ziggymarley Santos.

Cheers.

(ps. Please let no one start a thread on _Adoption of Graeco-Roman classical names in Brazil_.)


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## Macunaíma

faranji said:


> *Creedence Clearwater Couto*, a forward who used to play for Guarani and is currently playing in Belgium.


 
Não! Diga que isso não é verdade! Meu Deus!!!!

Ok. Aside from the odd abnormality here and there )), the English names mentioned in the first few posts don't sound all that strange anymore, except perhaps that they carry the _lower-class_ stigma. I've been trying to come up with more names, and I remembered that I've had schoolmates called *Wallace*, *Douglas* (both Scottish names), and I once met a policeman called *Beethoven*. *Vanderley* is also a quite popular name, and it has its origins in a wealthy family from Pernambuco, which descends from a Dutch nobleman, Gaspar van der Ley, who came to Brazil with Mauritz van Nassau during the Dutch occupation of Pernambuco, converted to catholicism and married a member of a powerful Portuguese-Brazilian family, the _Lins de Albuquerque Mello_.

I've also been trying to remember the Portuguese surname that I know it's used as a first name in some English-speaking countries: it's Miranda (the Australian top model *Miranda Kerr* in the picture).


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## Macunaíma

alexacohen said:


> ArnoldSarzeneger Santos (don't ask me!) must belong to the same family as Ziggymarley.


 
This is _esculhambação_ (I apologize with non-Portuguese speakers, but there is no better word in any given language to convey this)!!! 

I can't believe in such a thing! It's forbidden by law in Brazil to give children names that are likely to be vexatious to them. No notary public would agree to be accomplice to a crazy parent who tried to register their newborn child with such a name!


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## alexacohen

Macunaíma said:


> I've also been trying to remember the Portuguese surname that I know it's used as a first name in some English-speaking countries: it's Miranda (the Australian top model *Miranda Kerr* in the picture).


 
I didn't know Miranda was a Portuguese surname. 
Miranda is the only daughter of Prospero in Shakespeare's The Tempest.
Interesting.


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## avok

Macunaíma said:


> The most popular English surmanes used as first names in Brazil are probably _Wellington_, _Washington_, _Ad(d)ison_ (I have a friend with this name), _Wilson_ and _Nelson_.


 
They all end with "-on" is there anything portuguese-like about the ending -on?



avok said:


> ..."tayyip" (tayyip is the name of our president)


Sorry I made a mistake here, I dont want to misinform anyone. Tayyip Erdoğan is the prime minister not the president.



Jaén said:


> Of course, there are many many famous and acknowledged name in the world or Brazilian history, but they don't seem to be pompous to them, or maybe never heard those names before!


 
Probably 



Vanda said:


> A fad that went way to give place to Ronaldos, Robertos, etc.


 
That's better, at least they sound brazilian.


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## Outsider

avok said:


> They all end with "-on" is there anything portuguese-like about the ending -on?


The whole point of such names is in not sounding Portuguese, innit?

I doubt very much that *Miranda* is an exclusively Portuguese name. It looks Latin, and for all I know we may have borrowed it from Shakespeare's play.


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## Einstein

Is it really so strange that Brazilians use Anglo-Saxon surnames as given names? It seems to be a well-established practice in the USA too. Just think of Jefferson Davis, Franklin D. Roosevelt, Harrison Ford...


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## Outsider

You must be joking.


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## faranji

Thanks for the info, Macu. I always wondered whence the hell could Vanderley possibly come at all! Do you know anything about Djavan and Djalma?

Another curious thing is some of these anglo names are changed in their transcription so that they become somehow easier for Brazilian speakers to read and pronounce. I've seen many a Deivide and Uílson, and I guess the ubiquitous Edson was intended to sound as Eddison.



> It's forbidden by law in Brazil to give children names that are likely to be vexatious to them. No notary public would agree to be accomplice to a crazy parent who tried to register their newborn child with such a name!


 
When I first moved to Bahia, in November 2001, one of the first pieces of news that caught my eye me as a greenhorn in most things Brazilian was a magazine story on a poor couple from the hinterland of the state who had just named* their newborn Osama Bin Laden. 

(* I was gonna say _christened_, but I somehow cannot picture a Christian priest holysprinkling any sin off an Osaminha)


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## Dom Casmurro

faranji said:


> Do you know anything about Djavan and Djalma?


Catalonia had a 13th century king named Jaume. It's Catalan for James. Once in Barcelona, I found out that that name, in Catalan, is pronounced exactly like Djalma. Since then, I've been convinced that somehow the Catalans that emigrated to Brazil were the real source of that name.
As for Djavan, it is just one of those invented names, with no history behind it. It sounds good though, and suits perfectly its most famous bearer.


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## avok

Einstein said:


> Is it really so strange that Brazilians use Anglo-Saxon surnames as given names? It seems to be a well-established practice in the USA too. Just think of Jefferson Davis, Franklin D. Roosevelt, Harrison Ford...


 
Brazilians are not Anglo-Saxon but the States are.

Sorry but what is the Portuguese form of Deivid? Is not it David? There is a brazilian footballer called Deivid by the way.


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## Macunaíma

faranji said:


> When I first moved to Bahia, in November 2001, one of the first pieces of news that caught my eye me as a greenhorn in most things Brazilian was a magazine story on a poor couple from the hinterland of the state who had just named* their newborn Osama Bin Laden.


 
Perhaps these are the crazy parents you read about:



> *Brasileiro enfrenta Justiça para registrar filho como Osama bin Laden*
> Veja Online
> 
> 
> (...) O pai contou aos juízes que a admiração pelo terrorista vem da época em que morou em Bagdá, onde trabalhou como operário de uma construtora brasileira durante nove meses. "Gosto muito do Laden. Ele é uma pessoa boa e não esse terrorista que os americanos dizem."
> 
> Durante o período em que morou no Iraque, Osvaldo, que nasceu na Bahia, conheceu o Afeganistão e o Paquistão. Ele voltou ao Brasil no auge do conflito entre Irã e Iraque.
> 
> Argumentos - Durante a conversa que teve com os juizes, Osvaldo tentou desmontar os argumentos que impedem o registro do nome com base na Lei de Registros Públicos. (...) "Não abro mão e vou recorrer a todas as instâncias", declarou. Se não conseguir, o casal decidiu registrar o menino como Mateus, mas já avisou que ele será chamado para sempre de Osama bin Laden Feliciano de Oliveira Soares. Osvaldo garantiu aos juízes que o nome será bem aceito em Bagdá, para onde a família pretende se mudar no próximo ano.


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## ter_

Outsider said:


> You must be joking.


I don't think Einstein was joking. I agree with him that the practice of using typical English (and anglicized Scottish/Irish) surnames as forenames seems to be a well-established practice in the USA, but not in the UK. I think it is, or at least was, quite common among African-Americans because I used to watch American basketball on late night TV and some of the players names almost made me laugh. You'd be hard pushed to find anyone in the British Isles whose first name is "Berkeley" or "McMahon".


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## Outsider

ter_ said:


> I agree with him that the practice of using typical English (and anglicized Scottish/Irish) surnames as forenames seems to be a well-established practice in the USA, but not in the UK.


But that's to be expected, since English is the language they speak in the USA...


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## Einstein

I wasn't joking. Of course there are two sides to this question: 1) that they are Anglo-Saxon and 2) that they are surnames. Obviously I had the second point in mind.

To Outsider: Ter says: "... in the USA, but not in the UK". You reply: "But that's to be expected, since English is the language they speak in the USA..." It's also the language they speak in the UK (GB). In GB it's not usual to adopt surnames as forenames. This was Ter's point and also mine.


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## Guigo

Arriving now to add that this phenomenon seems to occur mostly in 'younger countries' (USA included) where some cultural melting pot is still very active. In the USA, one may find people named: Alonzo, Bolivar, Maury, Delmar, Linda, Paula, Renata, Angela, Denise, Leroy, etc, and not all have Italian or Iberian or French ancestors. Also, we have the re-discovery of African and Native roots in names like Shaquille, Latoya, even they only look like African or Native.

I think that the use of foreign surnames as given names in Brazil comes from the fact that that's the way some famous and celebrated people are known like: Roosevelt, Washington, Joffre, Ney, Wagner, Lennon. There are few exceptions like Fidel or Napoleão.

EDIT: just to add that names like Gerson, Helber, Nathan, Jonatas are biblical having nothing to do with some eventual tendency.


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## ampurdan

I've always found it weird (I'm thinking about one Venezuelan "Kevin Costner de Jesús"), but on a second thought, how can we know that our more current usual first names were not once last names of mighty tribal heroes?


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## Guigo

Anyway, researching old papers I found one by R. Magalhães Jr. published in the 70s where he informed that the 100 most used male given names in Brazil were all traditional: _João, Antônio, Luiz, José, Carlos, Francisco, Sérgio, André, Marcos, Fernando, Pedro, Ricardo,_ _ect,_ and for the 100 most used female given names only 2: _Denise & Michelle_ weren't traditional; the others were common like: _Maria, Ana, Regina, Vera, Teresa, Lúcia, Fernanda, Joana, Cristina, ect_.

The situation changed few in 30 years IMO and those given names from foreign background probably account for less than 1% of the total.


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## merquiades

Hello.  I'm reviving this thread as I just met two Brazilians with weird sounding first names:

Jeffeson
Anderans

Both of them seem like they are based on foreign sounding last names, but even so they are wrong to boot.  With Portuguese sounding last names they sound really awful:  Jeffeson Oliveira,  Anderans Silva de Melo.  The last names I made up as not to name real people.  What on earth would make someone name their kids like that?


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## Darth Nihilus

merquiades said:


> Hello.  I'm reviving this thread as I just met two Brazilians with weird sounding first names:
> 
> Jeffeson
> Anderans
> 
> Both of them seem like they are based on foreign sounding last names,  but even so they are wrong to boot.  With Portuguese sounding last names  they sound really awful:  Jeffeson Oliveira,  Anderans Silva de Melo.   The last names I made up as not to name real people.  What on earth  would make someone name their kids like that?



Isn't the name Jeffe*R*son?  If yes, that's a common name over here. Actually, many names ending  with -son are common (ex. Anderson) and not really looked on as being  "foreign" names. Anderans, however, is..uhm, an oddity.

In  Brazil, giving your children foreign names with creative spellings is a  beacon of poordom; poordom is a state of mind for some poor Brazilians. Neymar is a solid example for that.

Why  do they do that? Well, why do some afro-Americans name their children  like Latasha, Tyreque, Franshawn....? If you find the answer, let me  know.


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## merquiades

Darth Nihilus said:


> Isn't the name Jeffe*R*son?  If yes, that's a common name over here. Actually, many names ending  with -son are common (ex. Anderson) and not really looked on as being  "foreign" names. Anderans, however, is..uhm, an oddity.
> 
> In  Brazil, giving your children foreign names with creative spellings is a  beacon of poordom; poordom is a state of mind for some poor Brazilians. Neymar is a solid example for that.
> 
> Why  do they do that? Well, why do some afro-Americans name their children  like Latasha, Tyreque, Franshawn....? If you find the answer, let me  know.



No, it was definitely Jeffeson without r, and Anderans not Anderson.  That was one of the reasons I was taken aback.  Jefferson and Anderson would have seemed more normal to be, yet they are surnames.  To me it would be exactly like naming someone Da Silvah Jackson or Holveira Jones.  

Some African-American names are bizarre, true.  They combine the names of their parents or other relatives.  So Franshawn could be the daughter of Frank and Shawn, but I agree those name sting a bit.


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## Evgeniy

merquiades said:


> No, it was definitely Jeffeson without r


They are probably taught not to pronounce the [r]. (I am confused when it is and when it is not pronounced, I personally avoid it).
For them, it is probably not a surname of a person, something personal, but an abstract idea… Like Concepción in Spain.


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## basslop

Back to the start of the thread - the use of -son names as first name. It is not just Latin America. It is also used in Africa. I think there was a guy from somwhere in the southern parts of Africa who was named Nelson Mandela.


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## merquiades

Evgeniy said:


> They are probably taught not to pronounce the [r]. (I am confused when it is and when it is not pronounced, I personally avoid it).
> For them, it is probably not a surname of a person, something personal, but an abstract idea… Like Concepción in Spain.



Maybe they don't pronounce the R.  That is probably true, but adopting a foreign name and writing it incorrectly is beyond me.  Why bother.


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## Evgeniy

Well, they write Portuguese with (almost) Portughese spelling. The rules are strict in Portuguese: if you don't pronounce the sound, then you don't write the letter. My guess is that for them it is not exactly an English surname, but rather a Portuguese word (an abstract idea of something, like maybe being illustrous), so I can't see anything inadequate with this.


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## Darth Nihilus

Evgeniy said:


> Well, they write Portuguese with (almost) Portughese spelling. The rules are strict in Portuguese: if you don't pronounce the sound, then you don't write the letter. My guess is that for them it is not exactly an English surname, but rather a Portuguese word (an abstract idea of something, like maybe being illustrous), so I can't see anything inadequate with this.



Not exactly mate. For example, in _homem_ (man) the letter H is just an ornament, it's not pronounced at all. There are other numerous instances. The letter R usually is not pronounced in Portuguese when in Coda position of the last syllable, ex: _caçar_ (to hunt) can be pronounced _caça_. But this is not a rule, some people do pronounce it.

In Jefferson we *definitely* pronounce the R. Jeffeson is just the invention of a creative (or nonsensical) parent.


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## merquiades

Darth Nihilus said:


> In Jefferson we *definitely* pronounce the R. Jeffeson is just the invention of a creative (or nonsensical) parent.



I find it hard to say his name without putting in an R and then I don't know if it should be Jeffayson or Jeffison.  I think I'm just going to rename these guys Jeff and Andy.


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## Fernando

merquiades said:


> I find it hard to say his name without putting in an R and then I don't know if it should be Jeffayson or Jeffison.  I think I'm just going to rename these guys Jeff and Andy.



Think that for a Portuguese-speaking person the pronunciation "Jeffison" does not even appear in your mind. So, there is no ambiguity.

I once had a visit card from a 'Jhonny Gómez' (Gómez stands for his real surname, which was a very Castillian surname). Not Johnny, but Jhonny. Nobody ever doubted how it 'should' be pronounced.


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## Darth Nihilus

merquiades said:


> I find it hard to say his name without putting in an R and then I don't know if it should be Jeffayson or Jeffison.  I think I'm just going to rename these guys Jeff and Andy.



Wouldn't it be easier for you to drop the E instead and pronounce it Jeffson, like Jackson? Anyway, I agree, Jeff and Andy is way more practical.


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## Youngfun

As a coincidence, most of the Brazilian girls I've met on the internet have non-Portuguese names, such as Laila (Arabic), Yara (Tupi), Kelly Karoline (English + French with creative spelling), Karime (Arabic), Ingrid (English?), Tawanyh (Persian).

Only in one case the language of the name was to honour the family's ancestry: Karime who is of Lebanese descent. And she has a cousin named Shakira (the singer is also of Lebanese descent).

In the case of Tawanyh, her family is now a high class emigraed to Mexico, and her mother liked the name Tawanyh when she saw it on a perfume when travelling to Iran.

Kelly Karoline could be a typical example of low class family choosing a name that appears sophiscated. It's a mix of English, and a name with -e ending (Caroline as someone mentioned above) but rendered even more exotic by changing the C to K.

I've met several Carolinas. One of them told me the same thing, that only low class people, or people in remote rural areas give exotic names.


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## merquiades

Fernando:  Jhonny!    I'd kill my parents.  Why?????  Do you think there is a chance they made a mistake on the business card and he didn't want to have them redone??

Darth Nihilus:  Actually the way he pronounces Jeffeson sounds really exotic,  like nothing like it.

Youngfun:  Ingrid is Scandinavian.  I think of a long tall blonde girl.  Almost as blonde and tall as someone named Sabina.


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## Fernando

merquiades said:


> Fernando:  Jhonny!    I'd kill my parents.  Why?????  Do you think there is a chance they made a mistake on the business card and he didn't want to have them redone??



Let us say that I am pretty positive that it was not a visit card mistake.


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## Youngfun

merquiades said:


> Youngfun:  Ingrid is Scandinavian.  I think of a long tall blonde girl.  Almost as blonde and tall as someone named Sabina.



Sabina?


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## merquiades

Youngfun said:


> Sabina?



Just another Nordic sounding name like  Lotta, Elsa, Alva, Tilda, Cornelia.


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## Youngfun

But the Ingrid I know was average height and black-haired.


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## mexerica feliz

Youngfun said:


> Kelly Karoline could be a typical example of low class family choosing a name that appears sophisticated.



Not necessarily, there are many English-sounding names among upper middle class and upper class Brazilians,
for example *Kelly de Almeida Afonso* (more famous as Kelly Key) born into an upper middle class family of Portuguese ancestry in Jacarepaguá, RJ.

So, you see poor people named João and Maria,
and rich people named Kelly or Jefferson,
there is no rule.

Names of African and Amerindian origin (like Yara, Jacyra, Kauan, Kauê, Iracema, Janaína, Jurema etc.) are also evenly distributed among social classes...

I found the trend of using Italian city names  (like Verona or Siena)  in German- and English-speaking countries much more puzzling...


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## lorenzogranada

In Brazil, where I lived among the poor and rubbed elbows with some of the rich too, in the innocent and carefree 1960's, the "heroic foreigners" fad seemed to have started when poor kids went to school for the first time and brought home their text books. Parents just leafed through them and chose the juiciest name they could find for their next-born.  I have a long list of the most outrageous ones I knew personally and also heard of. My Brazilian wife taught school in a favela and told me one of her pupils was named Albert Einstein Ferreira, just to give one awful example. Can you imagine going to the grocer and saying, "Albert Einstein, give me a kilo of onions"? But you couldn't persuade people that this was a bad idea - for the poor, having a "rich" name meant the child had a better chance of becoming rich himself. When I gave private English lessons in wealthy homes in Ipanema, a dear friend in the favela asked me to take the dried-out umbilical cord of her last child - which she had been saving just for the purpose - and bury it, when my pupil was in the loo, in his potted plants, "so that she will be rich like him". I refused, because it was nonsense but also because my pupil might have thought I had gone mad, or - if he believed in macumba - trying to cast a spell on him!
I have always wondered if "Wilson", which was the name of my best friend, and also of a Colombian one I met five years later in his country, comes from Woodrow Wilson or the sea captain. I think it was the US President, who appeared as a just and kind man who helped the poor, like Kennedy - and in the 1960's there were plenty of little barefoot Kennedys dancing about...


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## Guigo

Most popular names registered in 2018 (Brasil), for newborn boys (meninos) and girls (meninas):

*Mais populares entre os meninos:*
Enzo Gabriel - 18.156
Miguel - 17.699
Arthur - 17.119
João Miguel - 16.049
Heitor - 14.025
Pedro Henrique - 13.672
Davi - 10.206
Bernardo - 9.914
João Pedro - 9.519
Gabriel - 9.452

*Mais populares entre as meninas:*
Maria Eduarda - 15.760
Maria Clara - 14.170
Alice - 12.482
Ana Clara - 11.059
Helena - 10.573
Valentina - 10.325
Maria Luíza - 9.353
Laura - 9.252
Maria Alice - 8.782
Maria Cecília - 7.719

_Source: Centro Nacional de Informações do Registro Civil._


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## Angelo di fuoco

merquiades said:


> Just another Nordic sounding name like  Lotta, Elsa, Alva, Tilda, Cornelia.



Except that Cornelia, while it is in truth a Roman name, is nowadays old-fashioned in Germany. A woman called Cornelia is most probably in her fifties. That said, I had a class-mate called Cornelius in the mid-90s.
Alva, in spite of the final a, is a male name, for all I know.



mexerica feliz said:


> I found the trend of using Italian city names  (like Verona or Siena)  in German- and English-speaking countries much more puzzling...



I know only one Verona (Pooth, née Feldbusch) and only one or two Siennas (not Sienas). In the German-speaking countries there's definitely no trend calling girls like Italian cities.


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## kwak22

Macunaíma said:


> Not to mention names used by the wrong gender: _Sasha_ for girls, for example.


_Sasha_ is equally fine for a girl and for a boy.


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