# The prepositions во and в



## Go-Moskva-go

Hi!

Could someone shed some light on any possible rules regarding the use of the preposition 
*во *instead of *в*_?_ I myself am under the impression that *во* is always used when the following
word (adjective or noun) begins with a consonant cluster consisting of *3 or more consonants*.
What I don't understand, however, is which consonant clusters consisting of *two consonants
* at the beginning of the noun or adjective require the form *во*. E.g.:

Why is it correct to say *в* Кремлe, but *во* Владивостоке? 
(Both *Кр*е́мль and *Вл*адивосток start with a cluster of 2 consonants. So, what is it that makes 
the cluster *Вл* deserving of the preposition *во*?)

What baffles me even more is the differing use of *во *and *в  *when it comes to nouns or adjectives that start with
the exact same consonant clusters consisting of 2 consonants. 
Why is it correct to say *Она стоит во дворе*. but *Она стучит в дверь*. 
I, for one, have never heard native speakers say the above sentences any other way. Yet, it really confuses me
that *двор *requires the preposition *во *while *дв**ерь *does not, even though both words start with the exact
same consonant cluster *дв*.

So finally, my most important question to You would be, if *во *and *в *can be used freely according to the personal
preferences of the speaker, or if strict rules regarding their use in fact do exist?
Would it be acceptable e.g. to say *Она стучит вo дверь*. instead of *Она стучит в дверь*. ?
And if strict rules regarding the use of these prepositions do exist, what are they like?

I apologize for the length of my question, but this matter has been baffling me for a while now and I haven't found 
any answers to this in any textbooks. Furthermore, my Russian friends have mostly told me that they intuitively
use *во *whenever they feel it is necessary, but they haven't been aware of any rules regarding this matter.

Thanks for all answers!


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## morzh

But Владивосток also starts from "В", same as "в" prep.


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## Moro12

Go-Moskva-go said:


> Hi!
> 
> Could someone shed some light on any possible rules regarding the use of the preposition
> *во *instead of *в*_?_ I myself am under the impression that *во* is always used when the following
> word (adjective or noun) begins with a consonant cluster consisting of *3 or more consonants*.!



Not always: "в стране", "в спряжении", "в склонении" (3 consonants).



Go-Moskva-go said:


> What I don't understand, however, is which consonant clusters consisting of *two consonants
> *at the beginning of the noun or adjective require the form *во*. E.g.:
> 
> Why is it correct to say *в* Кремлe, but *во* Владивостоке?
> (Both *Кр*е́мль and *Вл*адивосток start with a cluster of 2 consonants. So, what is it that makes
> the cluster *Вл* deserving of the preposition *во*?)



That's just because "Владивосток" starts with a cluster of "в + consonant", some more examples:
"во вселенной", "во времени", "во владении", "во вторник".



Go-Moskva-go said:


> What baffles me even more is the differing use of *во *and *в *when it comes to nouns or adjectives that start with
> the exact same consonant clusters consisting of 2 consonants.
> Why is it correct to say *Она стоит во дворе*. but *Она стучит в дверь*.
> I, for one, have never heard native speakers say the above sentences any other way. Yet, it really confuses me
> that *двор *requires the preposition *во *while *дв**ерь *does not, even though both words start with the exact
> same consonant cluster *дв*.



A nice question! Unfortunately, I do not know a strict rule for that, but I believe there should be an explanation.



Go-Moskva-go said:


> So finally, my most important question to You would be, if *во *and *в *can be used freely according to the personal
> preferences of the speaker, or if strict rules regarding their use in fact do exist?
> Would it be acceptable e.g. to say *Она стучит вo дверь*. instead of *Она стучит в дверь*. ?



It would be somewhat acceptable, but it would obviously sound archaic, old-fashioned.
Old Russian used "во", "ко", "со" instead of the modern "в", "к", "с" all the times. You can still find it in old literature, and it can also be used in the poetry to match the metre.



Go-Moskva-go said:


> And if strict rules regarding the use of these prepositions do exist, what are they like?
> 
> I apologize for the length of my question, but this matter has been baffling me for a while now and I haven't found
> any answers to this in any textbooks. Furthermore, my Russian friends have mostly told me that they intuitively
> use *во *whenever they feel it is necessary, but they haven't been aware of any rules regarding this matter.
> 
> Thanks for all answers!



There are certainly some rules... Maybe someone else would explain it better. Or I'll let you know if I find a detailed explanation.


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## Dima1409

Go-Moskva-go said:


> Why is it correct to say в Кремлe, but во Владивостоке?



Because Владивосток starts from the same letter as the preposition.



Go-Moskva-go said:


> Why is it correct to say Она стоит во дворе. but Она стучит в дверь.


I don't know exactly, but I think that's because it sounds better. Look at here: "*во* д*во*ре". Just try to pronounce "в дворе" - it is quite hard to say that in colloquial speech.
When at the university I studied Ukrainian (that's a language, very similar to Russian. At least, for ukrainians ), our lecturer said, that "милозвучність" (~"благозвучие" in Russian) sometimes is more important than rules. This must be that case. 



Go-Moskva-go said:


> So finally, my most important question to You would be, if во and в can be used freely according to the personal
> preferences of the speaker, or if strict rules regarding their use in fact do exist?
> Would it be acceptable e.g. to say Она стучит вo дверь. instead of Она стучит в дверь. ?
> And if strict rules regarding the use of these prepositions do exist, what are they like?



No. I think there are no strict rules, but you shouldn't say like that: "Она стучит вo дверь". It's not even archaic. It just not right.
I'll also try to find smth about this.


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## Hoax

Well, I was lazy to look for a certain rule but as far as I can think up the examples, when the cluster of consonants is followed by a front vowel the "в" preposition is used. When the cluster of consonants is  followed by a back vowel than the "во" preposition is used. It is simply not very convenient for lazy russian tongue to jump hither and thither


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## Moro12

Hoax said:


> Well, I was lazy to look for a certain rule but as far as I can think up the examples, when the cluster of consonants is followed by a front vowel the "в" preposition is used. When the cluster of consonants is followed by a back vowel than the "во" preposition is used. It is simply not very convenient for lazy russian tongue to jump hither and thither



Hmm... во сне - в снах. The same consonant cluster, the same word! The first one is in sungular, the second is in plural.
"во сне" - "е" is a front vowel;
"в снах" - "а" is a middle vowel (more back than front)...


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## Hoax

Moro12 said:


> Hmm... во сне - в снах. The same consonant cluster, the same word! The first one is in sungular, the second is in plural.
> "во сне" - "е" is a front vowel;
> "в снах" - "а" is a middle vowel (more back than front)...



May be it has something to do with the height as well.


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## Hoax

Moro12 said:


> Hmm... во сне - в снах. The same consonant cluster, the same word! The first one is in sungular, the second is in plural.
> "во сне" - "е" is a front vowel;
> "в снах" - "а" is a middle vowel (more back than front)...



By the way, I would prefer "во снах".

Розенталь writes (about "во сне")



> Добавление гласного *о* к предлогу, состоящему из одного согласного звука или оканчивающемуся на согласный, наблюдается в ряде случаев:
> 1)      перед односложным словом, начинающимся со стечения согласных, с беглым гласным в корне, например:*во сне* (ср.: *в сновидениях*), *во рту* (ср.: *в ртутных испарениях*), *во льну* (ср.: *в льнотеребилках*), *ко мне*(ср.: *к мнимой величине*);



The preposition во/ко/со is used together with one syllable words which start with a cluster of consonants and have an unstable vowel.

http://www.textfighter.org/text1/66_naprimer_mezhdu_isklyuchaya_3.php


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## Moro12

ко мне - к мнимой величине... but:

ко многим - no unstable vowel, a disyllabic word...



Hoax said:


> By the way, I would prefer "во снах".



Looks like it's a matter of preference. To me "в снах" sounds more natural, but I've checked the Yandex statistics:
во снах - 633,000
в снах - 579,000
almost 50 / 50. I think, that's because the expression in plural is not so often used as compared with "во сне".

However, there's another funny thing. I've also checked "во сне":
во сне - 15,000,000
в сне - 160,000
My first guess was "в сне" was just used by an error. But after I checked the context, I found:

Подростки _нуждаются *в* *сне
- *_it's a completely different meaning than "во сне" (in someone's dream)

_но *в* «*Сне*» её фигура — трагическая,_ ...
- here "сон" is a name of a literature work.


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## Hoax

Moro12 said:


> ко мне - к мнимой величине... but:
> 
> ко многим - no unstable vowel, a disyllabic word...



It doesn't contradict Розенталь's 


К мнимой - the close front vowel
Ко многим - the mid back vowel


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## Moro12

Excuse me, I did not see the front and back vowels to be mentioned anywhere in that reference...


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## Hoax

Moro12 said:


> Excuse me, I did not see the front and back vowels to be mentioned anywhere in that reference...



That is not about the reference, that is about my previous post where i guessed that prepositions may depend on the vowels used.


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## Moro12

Well, we were just speaking different languages.

I just provided an example to show that it contradicted your latest post 
But I agree that example fits your previous explanation involving the vowel quality.


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## Hoax

Moro12 said:


> I just provided an example to show that it contradicted your latest post



Which one? I still don't get it.


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## Moro12

Hoax said:


> Which one? I still don't get it.




Your message: The preposition во/ко/со is used together with one syllable words which start with a cluster of consonants and have an unstable vowel.

My counter-example:
ко мне - к мнимой величине... but:

ко многим - no unstable vowel, a disyllabic word...

See post #8


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## Hoax

Moro12 said:


> Your message: The preposition во/ко/со is used together with one syllable words which start with a cluster of consonants and have an unstable vowel.
> 
> My counter-example:
> ко мне - к мнимой величине... but:
> 
> ко многим - no unstable vowel, a disyllabic word...



But you answered it yourself )) the second example is not one-syllable word. So actually that Розенталь's statement says nothing about that kind of words.


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## Moro12

Oh, OK. It depends on how one interpretes that statement. To me it sounded like "in mono-syllabic words with unstable vowels ко is used, in other cases it does not". And then follow some examples like *ко мне*(ср.: *к мнимой величине*), which support this interpretation.


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## Hoax

Moro12 said:


> Oh, OK. It depends on how one interpretes that statement. To me it sounded like "in mono-syllabic words with unstable vowels ко is used, in other cases it does not". And then follow some examples like *ко мне*(ср.: *к мнимой величине*), which support this interpretation.



No, just open the link, you will see that it consists of more than one paragraph.


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## Moro12

I've already checked it. I just wrote: I did not find anything about front and back vowels there. They were mentioned in your post, but not in the article by that link.
There are 5 paragraphs there, and "ко многим" does not match any of them.

I'm not going to say your rule does not work. I'm just trying to explain why I posted that example.


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## Hoax

Moro12 said:


> I've already checked it. I just wrote: I did not find anything about front and back vowels there. They were mentioned in your post, but not in the article by that link.
> There are 5 paragraphs there, and "ко многим" does not match any of them.



I know, that is why i didn't quote the rest, it is not interesting and gives no useful information on the question  but we can make a list of rules picking them here and there.


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## Moro12

Got it!

And I find my examples with "во сне" vs "в сне" the most interesting (post #9). At least, they show that the choice of во/в can be context-dependent.

"во сне" mainly means "in someone's dream", "в сне" is impossible in this specific context. But when it comes to "нуждаться в сне", it does not sound wrong to me.


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## Hoax

Moro12 said:


> Got it!
> 
> And I find my examples with "во сне" vs "в сне" the most interesting (post #9). At least, they show that the choice of во/в can be context-dependent.



I don't think that "в сне" would be very popular. We would say "в *** сне", for example "в моем сне", otherwise "во сне" would be used more often as it is more convenient to pronounce. 

Let's try to think up examples for vowels of different height.  For example is it possible to think up such examples where "во + consonant cluster + high vowel" would be used? This very minute I can't think of such examples. "В" would be used in this case.


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## Moro12

Would "во лжи" suit? It's [ы], but it's still high.


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## Hoax

Moro12 said:


> Would "во лжи" suit? It's [ы], but it's still high.



Any more? One is not enough as there always can be some exceptions 
With И-У-Ю maybe? But those under the stress only are considered  We don't need shwa


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## Moro12

Во рту. Ко лбу (прикоснуться ко лбу). Во ржи [ы]. Ко дню (ко дню моего рождения), although к дню is possible.
Still cannot find any with И. Со спичками is not a good example, we have С+СП here.


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## Hoax

Moro12 said:


> Во рту. Ко лбу (прикоснуться ко лбу). Во ржи [ы]. Ко дню (ко дню моего рождения), although к дню is possible.
> Still cannot find any with И. Со спичками is not a good example, we have С+СП here.



It is kind of difficult to find the regularity here  I'm afraid we will have to pay regard to the consonants as well 
I wonder if there is any research on this topic  Must be. I feel that it has something to do with the way sounds are produced, just to make it more convenient for our tongue


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## Moro12

One more article. But it does not pretend to cover everything.
http://www.sekretarskoe-delo.ru/index.php?id=1075

Отдельное внимание стоит обратить на то, когда к предлогам «в», «к», «с», «под», «без», «из», «над» и др. присоединяется буква «о», т. е. когда нужно употреблять предлог «к», а когда «ко», когда «с», а когда «со»… В данном случае надо запоминать правила. Приведем лишь некоторые из них. 
Предлог «со» закономерен в следующих сочетаниях: со страной, со значением, со штангой, со жгутом, со щами, т. е. ставится перед словами, начинающимися с букв «с», «з», «ш», «ж» плюс согласная, а также с согласной «щ». Предлог «со» употребляется со словами, начинающимися на «л», «ль», «р», «м», «в» плюс согласная: со лба, со льдом, со ртом, со мной, со всеми. 
Именно поэтому следует писать «со звездой», «со взаимным», но «с шапкой», «с дня». Причем интересно, что «с дня» пишется, только если речь идет о конкретном дне, а не о дне как о начальной точке отсчета времени. Например: фотографии с дня рождения (сделанные на дне рождения). Но: фотографии хранятся со дня рождения (и до сих пор). 
Предлоги «к» и «ко». Как и в предыдущем случае, предлог «ко» сочетается со словами, начинающимися на «ль», «л», «м», «р» плюс согласная: ко лбу, ко льду, ко мне, ко рту. Употребляется со словами, стоящими соответственно в дательном падеже: весь, всякий, всяческий, вторник, второй. 
Предлоги «в» и «во». Аналогично: «во» пишем со словами, начинающимися с букв «л», «ль», «м», «р» плюс согласная. Предлог «во» также сочетается со словами на «в», «ф» плюс согласная: во власти, во Флоренции, но: в виде, в Феодосии. И ставится перед формой «что»: во что. 
И еще нужно запомнить, что если требуется употребить такие предлоги перед цифрами (если они не написаны словами), то дополнительная буква «о» в предлогах не ставится. 
Например: с 100 рублями (со ста рублями), в II квартале (во втором квартале). 
Очевидно, что привести здесь все правила мы не можем, но если в памяти отложатся хотя бы эти, велика вероятность, что ваше «сольное выступление» пройдет на бис. Во всяком случае искренне вам этого желаем!

Gramota.Ru provides one more explanation (the following is only regarding в-во pair, not other similar pairs):
Ответ справочной службы русского языка
Предлог во выступает перед формами слов, начинающимися сочетаниями «в, ф + согласный». Последовательно выступает перед формами слов _лев, лёд, лён, лоб, ложь, мох, ров, рожь, рот_, перед формой _мне_ и формами слов _многие, многое, множество, множественный_, перед формой _что_. Также есть сочетания с _во_ слов: _благо, весь, глава, двор, дворец, дворянство, зло, мгла, мнение, мрак, сколько, слава, сон, спасение, столько, тьма, христос, цвет, человек, чрево_.

De facto, it admits their distribution is quite chaotic  Our mothertongue is full of irregularities...


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