# Ты молока купил?



## Lorenc

I've come across this joke:
- Дорогой! Ты молока купил?
- Молокаку? Не, не пил... А что это!?..

Why молока and not молоко? I suppose it's a genitive-partitive ("some milk" instead of "the milk"), but it doesn't seem to fit too well in this context. 
Is this usage normal or  maybe it's just for the purpose of the joke?


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## GCRaistlin

> В родительном падеже возможны вариантные окончания в сочетаниях типа стакан _ча*ю* – стакан ча*я*_, _много народ*у* – много народ*а*_. Форма на *-у(ю),* с присущим ей разговорным оттенком, допускается в следующих случаях:
> 
> *у имен существительных* с вещественным значением при указании на количество, т.е. для обозначения части целого, например: _стакан ча*ю*_ (ср.: _вкус ча*я*_), _килограмм сахар*у*_ (ср.: _сладость сахар*а*_); _достать воск*у*, керосин*у*, кле*ю*, лак*у*, мел*у*, скипидар*у*, тес*у*; купить горох*у*, жир*у*, лук*у*, мед*у*, перц*у*, рис*у*, сыр*у*;_ то же с ударным окончанием: _килограмм песк*у*, достать чеснок*у*, прибавить кипятк*у*, прикупить миндал*ю*._
> 
> С окончанием *-у* употребляются существительные, имеющие в своем составе ударный уменьшительный суффикс и ударение на окончании во всех косвенных падежах: _выпить кваск*у*, коньячк*у*, чайк*у*, поесть медк*у*, сахарк*у*, сырк*у*, чесночк*у*_ (_выпить *чайка*, съесть *сырка*_ употребить невозможно), а также некоторые существительные с безударным уменьшительным суффиксом: _выпить кефирчик*у*, достать бензинчик*у*;_


Розенталь Д.Э. и др. Справочник. ГЛАВА XXXVI


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## Eirwyn

Lorenc said:


> but it doesn't seem to fit too well in this context


Why? I think it totally fits here. "Ты молоко купил?" would rather mean "Have you bought (a bag of) milk?". Essentially in modern conditions it would mean the same thing, of course, but grammatically the difference is quite clear.


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## Vadim K

In Russian words which express a part of the whole quantity are used in the genitive case.

Ты купил (_немного/бутылку_) молока?
Ты купил (_немного/булку_) хлеба?
Ты купил (_немного/упаковку_) чая?

The words in the brackets can be just implied and omitted while talking.

But sure you can also use the accusative case in this context.

Ты купил молоко/хлеб/чай?


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## nizzebro

Lorenc said:


> Is this usage normal or maybe it's just for the purpose of the joke?


It's normal. I would expect "ты молоко купил?" in the case when it's clear what kind and what amount of milk (most probably, a single bottle/pack, as Eirwyn noted) should have been bought;  it would probably sound more certain and even demanding.


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## Vadim K

The word "_молока_" (and not "_молоко_") is used here in order to form the word "молоКАКУ" (the nominative case of the word "_каку_" is "_кака_" which is "_caca/poo_" in English). If the word "_молоко_" was used instead, "молоКАКУ" would become "молоКОКУ" and there wouldn't be any play on words in this joke.


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## Awwal12

Lorenc said:


> I've come across this joke:
> - Дорогой! Ты молока купил?
> - Молокаку? Не, не пил... А что это!?..
> 
> Why молока and not молоко? I suppose it's a genitive-partitive ("some milk" instead of "the milk"), but it doesn't seem to fit too well in this context.
> Is this usage normal or  maybe it's just for the purpose of the joke?


The usage is perfectly normal. As long as the details (particular volume, sort etc.) remain undefined and generally irrelevant, using partitive ("some amount of sth") with uncountable objects is quite natural. Usually it's the accusative case which becomes marked, pointing that the object is somehow definite (referential or not). Cf. "утром я выпил молоко" (which is pretty much equivalent to "the milk": all the milk in the fridge, the milk I am talking about, my usual morning milk which you know about, etc.) vs. "утром я выпил молока" (just some milk).


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## Eirwyn

Awwal12 said:


> утром я выпил молока


Is it common to use genitive with "выпить" in Moscow?


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## Awwal12

Eirwyn said:


> Is it common to use genitive with "выпить" in Moscow?


As I said, it depends on the context. If the object is uncountable, the default case will be some sort of genitive ("выпить чаю", "выпить чая"). The accusative case marks the uncountable object as definite ("выпить чай (, который...)"). I take it you use it differently somehow?


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## Eirwyn

Awwal12 said:


> I take it you use it differently somehow?


I use "попить" instead of "выпить" + genitive. The latter rather sounds somewhat posh and pretentious to me. Same with "съесть" and "поесть".


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## Awwal12

Eirwyn said:


> I use "попить" instead of "выпить" + genitive.


"Попить" if basically equivalent to "попить немного",  so it cannot universally replace "выпить чего-л." anyway (and I certainly don't see anything even slightly pretentious in the latter).


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## Lorenc

Thanks. Genitive partitive sounds very strange to me for 'milk' in the context of the joke, but I'll just have to accept that it's ok or even preferable in Russian. In Italian I'd normally ask 'Hai comprato il latte?' (have you bought the milk?), meaning 'the quantity we usually buy; however many bottles I asked you to buy'. The form corresponding to genitive-partitive 'hai comprato del latte?' (have you bought some milk?) is conceivable is some very specific contexts. For example: said with incredulity by a vegan wife ('you've bought some milk?! why?') or, maybe, if the family never buys milk but they needed it for some special purpose (eg a cake), or in a 'can you guess what I bought at the supermarket?' game.


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## Eirwyn

Awwal12 said:


> so it cannot universally replace "выпить чего-л." anyway


Any examples? The only case I could possibly use it in would be "выпить таблеток", but here the meaning of the verb is a bit different.


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## Awwal12

Lorenc said:


> In Italian I'd normally ask 'Hai comprato il latte?' (have you bought the milk?), meaning 'the quantity we usually buy


Yes, Russian more typically uses the "indefinite" counterpart here, although "ты молоко купил" is also quite possible. Don't forget that partitiveness and definiteness in these constructions appear to be in complementary distribution ("partitive + indefinite" vs. "non-partitive + definite"); English also demonstrates similar tendencies ("have you bought milk" is really unlikely when you describe a single shopping trip, compared to "the milk" and "some milk"), although the exact distribution between the two variants in the usus may be different, as it apparently is in Italian.


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## Eirwyn

Lorenc said:


> For example: said with incredulity by a vegan wife ('*you've bought some milk?! why?*') or, maybe, if the family never buys milk but they needed it for some special purpose (eg a cake), or in a '*can you guess what I bought at the supermarket?*' game.


The funny thing is that in these particular contexts in Russian it would be more natural to use accusative and not genitive.


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## Awwal12

Eirwyn said:


> Any examples? The only case I could possibly use it in would be "выпить таблеток", but here the meaning of the verb is a bit different.


"Выпили пива, примерно пару литров на брата." 
"Выпить" has a strong sense of resultativeness about it. "Попить", on the other hand, always states some sort of incompleteness (as in "we could have drunk more but we didn't"). "Хорошо попили пива" (coll.) would sound off to me, as long as the context isn't jocular of sorts.


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## Awwal12

Eirwyn said:


> The funny thing is that in these particular contexts in Russian it would be more natural to use accusative and not genitive.


Again, I'd say it depends on the context. By default, if the milk wasn't mentioned before at all, I'd use the genitive form. But it also may be subject to individual, regional and other variations.


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## Eirwyn

Awwal12 said:


> "Выпили пива, примерно пару литров на брата."





Awwal12 said:


> "Хорошо выпили пива"


I don't think it counts a genitive object in a straight sense. "Примерно пару литров пива" is undoubtedly an accusative noun phrase and "хорошо" in "хорошо пива" functions as a quantitative pronoun.

Also it would be much easier to get one's head around these examples, if they contained a noun with distinct genitive and accusative forms. It's not easy to say whether "пиво" or "пива" sounds more appropriate in a certain phrase, when both forms actually sound the same


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## Awwal12

Eirwyn said:


> I don't think it counts a genitive object in a straight sense. "Примерно пару литров пива" is undoubtedly an accusative noun phrase and "хорошо" in "хорошо пива" functions as a quantitative pronoun.


At least syntactically in both cases quantifying words don't modify the arguments of the verb.


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## AndrasBP

Lorenc said:


> Genitive partitive sounds very strange to me for 'milk' in the context of the joke, but I'll just have to accept that it's ok or even preferable in Russian. In Italian I'd normally ask 'Hai comprato il latte?' (have you bought the milk?), meaning 'the quantity we usually buy; however many bottles I asked you to buy'. The form corresponding to genitive-partitive 'hai comprato *del *latte?' (have you bought some milk?) is conceivable is some very specific contexts.


While the genitive-partitive may be unusual in this context in Italian, I think it *is* the default structure in French: "Tu as acheté *du *lait?", which semantically corresponds to the Russian use of the genitive case here.


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## Lorenc

AndrasBP said:


> While the genitive-partitive may be unusual in this context in Italian, I think it *is* the default structure in French: "Tu as acheté *du *lait?", which semantically corresponds to the Russian use of the genitive case here.



You may very well be right. BTW, I'm quite sure that Polish would, contrary to Russian, strongly prefer accusative in the context of the joke (kupiłeś mleko/chleb/herbatę? and not: kupiłeś mleka/chleba/herbaty?). I think it goes to show that, when it comes to finer points, it is mostly a matter of _usus_ rather than of general principles and logic.


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## Olaszinhok

[/QUOTE]While the genitive-partitive may be unusual in this context in Italian, I think it *is* the default structure in French: "Tu as acheté *du *lait?", which semantically corresponds to the Russian use of the genitive case here.
[/QUOTE]
Well, I would say  it's common in italian as well. We do have a partitive article and I'd use that article, too, exactly like in French. As-tu acheté du lait? Hai comprato del latte? ; Ты  купил молока??" In my opinion, the use of the genitive in Russian  is intuitive indeed in the above examples.


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## nizzebro

Probably the absence of definite articles or pronouns makes sentences like "Купи молок*о*" vague. These do not provide any certainty itself and are always context-dependent, or, more exactly, depending on what both the speaker and the listener are considering by that.
"Пожалуйста, купи молок*а*. "  - "Хорошо. А сколько купить? Пакет? А какого? Любого?"
"Пожалуйста, купи _такого _молок*а*" - "Хорошо. А сколько купить, один пакет, как обычно?"
"Пожалуйста, купи _такое_ молок*о*."  "Хорошо. Только пакет, или, может, больше?"
"Пожалуйста, купи молок*о*. "  - "Хмм.. Не пойму. Ты имеешь в виду, что я должен купить один пакет, и купить того же молока, что я покупал вчера?"

Я вчера купил молока. Зачем ещё покупать?
Я вчера купил молоко. То самое.
Я вчера купил молоко, но потерял его по дороге домой. Придётся купить ещё молока. Придётся купить это молоко снова.
Я закупил молоко на ферме, 10 тонн. Хороший _продукт_, качество отличное.


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## Vovan

To sum it up:

*Купить *[1. какого-то, некоторого / 2. некоторое количество] *молока*. (Buy some milk.)
*Купить *[1. не что иное, как; именно / 2. то самое; в нужном количестве; всё; у кого-то, где-то, чьё-то] *молоко*. (Buy milk. Buy the/that/their... milk.)

There may be no or little difference between them in some contexts.


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## Vovan

Lorenc said:


> kupiłeś mleka/chleba/herbaty?


*Lorenc*, maybe it's just that I'm not able to follow the logic of the thread , but did you _really _get the gist of that joke in Russian?
"Ты молока купил?" (Did you buy (some) milk?) - the way it sounds - can be parsed as "Ты молокаку пил?" (Did you drink molokaka?) "Molokaka" is a non-existing word which should mean something like "milk-poopie".​


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## Awwal12

Vovan said:


> *Lorenc*, maybe it's just that I'm not able to follow the logic of the thread , but did you _really _get the gist of that joke in Russian?


The thread is about the syntactical construction in the joke, not about the joke itself. (I don't know what молокака "should mean" since it obviously not a Russian word, but it does sound funny from the Russian perspective.)


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## nizzebro

By the way, as to the joke itself, I'd highly recommend to omit that "А что это!?.. "  - it's redundant and only prevents this joke from being as deep as it actually is


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## Vovan

*Awwal*, how, then, would you explain these words of Lorenc'?


> Genitive partitive sounds very strange to me for 'milk' in the context of the joke, but I'll just have to accept that it's ok or even preferable in Russian.





> I'm quite sure that Polish would, contrary to Russian, strongly prefer accusative in the context of the joke (kupiłeś mleko/chleb/herbatę?)


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## Lorenc

Vovan said:


> *Lorenc*, maybe it's just that I'm not able to follow the logic of the thread , but did you _really _get the gist of that joke in Russian?
> "Ты молока купил?" (Did you buy (some) milk?) - the way it sounds - can be parsed as "Ты молокаку пил?" (Did you drink molokaka?) "Molokaka" is a non-existing word which should mean something like "milk-poopie".​



Well, I don't know if I _really_ got the joke, because I don't find it funny!  The thing is, for a pun to work (for me) both possible readings of the bit where the pun is should have a meaning. Take, for example:
Last night, I dreamed I was swimming in an ocean of orange soda. But it was just a Fanta sea.
This works (or at least, it works much better) because 'Fanta sea' can mean both 'sea of orangeade Fanta' and 'fantasy'. But for for me молокаку doesn't mean anything and doesn't prompt any association, to me it's just a nonsense word and as a result the joke doesn't really have a strong punchline. Maybe, as you suggest, молокака sounds funnier to Russian ears 

In any case, when I said 'in the context of the joke', I was referring only to the first line. Thinking about it now, probably I shouldn't have talked of 'context', as the only context we get is the single word 'дорогой'. I should have said that, when I originally came across the joke, it was accompanied by an image of a couple (husband and wife) in a sitting room talking. So the context I had in mind was: the husband gets back home and his wife asks him if he's bought the milk. I also imagined that the wife had previously asked him to buy it (and that's why she's asking) and, perhaps, that they buy milk regularly. I'm specifying all this because, as I said, in other contexts (surprised vegan wife, etc.) I would expect the genitive on the basis of my experience with other languages (Italian/Polish/English). BTW, and also to answer Olaszinhok, I'm not saying that in Italian the structure with partitive is not used. In general terms it is used and it perfectly normal, I just wouldn't use it in the context depicted above.


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## Vovan

Lorenc said:


> to me it's just a nonsense word and as a result the joke doesn't really have a strong punchline.


It's more about pretending that you didn't understand what the other person has just told you - in order to tease them (_A: What "molokaka" are you talking about, anyway?!_ _B: No! I didn't say that!!!_ _A: Yes, that's exactly what you said._).


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## nizzebro

One friend of mine told me that he used to tell this joke to some people (Russians of course) and many of them didn't catch it, or at least not right away. I guess the reason is that our rationality resists such unexpected disruption of the usual order of things...


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