# Why don't Latinos learn English?



## CitoyenDuMonde

In the USA there is a big issue on illegal immigration. Many immigrants come to the USA to acheive the "American Dream" and contribute part of their culture into the melting pot. Every non-english speaking immigrant have made an effort to communicate in english the best they can but it appears *some* latinos refuse to learn or just don't see the reason why they need to learn the language. 

I've met many latinos and know some personally. For one latino is just another "label" made up only in the USA to identify a group of people who speak the same language but have completely different culture & ethnic background. If one has ever travelled to latin america one can see that "latino" doesn't really exist and people are divided by the region they come from & to some extent their ethnic background but once they arrive in the USA they are suppose to be one ethnic group. 

Anyway, the point I wanted to make was why so many can't learn english. I've noticed that many latinos do not dominate their own language well especially those from the caribbean most can't read nor write in their language. Although in South America this is also prevelant but countries such as Colombia, Argentina, Uruguay, Chile you will find many people who are very educated & well read which to me is the key. 

I just can't understand why a person who migrated to this country can't speak survival english after being in the USA for over 5 years. I've asked many why don't they learn english and some have told me they don't need to. They prefer to live in "el Barrio" where most people speak spanish and don't really see it as a necessity to learn english. They barely watch english programs & listen to only the spanish radio stations. How in the world do they expect to learn at least survival english? I recall going to a Popeye's restaurant to order a number 1 but the attended gave me a number 4 because she didn't understand english. How the hell did she get a job serving customers if she didn't speak english? That's another topic.


I am very open to many cultures and love learning different languages but it really fustrates me when I can't get someone to assist me in english. The truth is they are the ones getting hurt since they will never dominate the english language and will always need a translator.  

I believe one should make an attempt to learn the language of their new home & learn to adapt instead of building little enclaves.


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## GenJen54

Hi Citoyen, 

Please take a look at THIS thread, which should answer many of your questions.  

There are many reasons for this, and it is a multi-nuanced discussion. 

Much has to do with the fact that immigrants have to work more hours to support their families.  English (ESL) and other education programs are often too expensive, or are held at times when people have to work. 

Successive generations ARE learning English, and in some instances ignoring their own languages. 

I hope this other thread helps.


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## Bastoune

Well to give you an example, I work in a school that offers English courses for foreigners (ESL) and computer, digital fashion design courses, and others. Anyway, a month or so go, a woman living in NYC phoned me and just spoke Spanish. Not a word of English. Never even bothered to ask if I spoke Spanish. She wasn’t enquiring about ESL though -- but rather about some computer courses. OK, I thought it was odd she’d speak in Spanish to me unless she knew I spoke it and she was more comfortable whatever. Still, it’s rude and obnoxious. Whatever.

Then, finally, after talking about the courses she asked about, she says to me, "Now, are the courses taught in English?"
I couldn’t believe it! DUH!

When I told her, "yes," she said, "Oh no. Then I’m not going to be able to understand anything then! What should I do?" I suggested she study English. I wanted to say, "Bienvenida a los Estados Unidos" because, DUH, what was she thinking? Well she wasn’t -- and her attitude is typical. Soy latina, no necesita aprender inglés, ustéd tiene que satisfacer a a mis caprichos perezosos linguisticos! ARRIBA!"

Sorry, but get a clue. This happens to me practically on a daily basis in places of business, in public... only the Hispanics do this.
I’m sorry, I have lived in 6 countries. I learned Italian in 6 months -- fluent, no classes, just LEARNED it from studying it on my own while I was a student in Rome (in a French school, mind you).

Aprendan inglés o regresen a sus paises!!! 

Or else from now on, I'm just going to speak French to everyone and demand that they serve me in MY LANGUAGE.


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## ElaineG

Well, Bastoune, that's one experience.

I spent several years volunteering on Saturdays at a community center in upper Manhattan where we taught and practiced basic English conversation for survival situations: work, the doctor, children's school.

The clientele were overwhelmingly Hispanic women (some Eastern Europeans and Asians as well). All worked at least one, and many two, three or more jobs in menial capacities where they were not exposed to much English. Many got there only exposure to English through their children and their children's homework. All made an incredible effort to get there despite their busy and stressful lives. Many made noteworthy progress. None could afford (in either time or money) the type of intensive lessons that I first had upon arriving in Paris, for example.

All of their children -- even those as young as 6 or 7 -- spoke fluent English and went back and forth readily between English and Spanish, often functioning as translators for their mothers.

Also: If you have worked at all with New York's Chinese community, you will know that a persistent difficulty for adults in learning English is not in any way limited to Spanish speakers. One of the great stumbling blocks for assisting immigrants in the garment industry (largely Asian) is a complete lack of English skills -- working for other Chinese, living in insular Chinese communities, they are just not exposed to it. 

Finally: My great-grandmother never spoke anything but broken English. As a senior citizen, she simply forgot it or it became too difficult for her. She always spoke Yiddish at home, in the garment factories in which she worked, and with her friends and storekeepers in her neighborhood.
Her daughter, my grandmother, was, of course, fluent in both English and Yiddish. Her granddaughter, my mother, attended Ivy League educational institutions and is a successful professional.

Similarly, in my old neighborhood in Brooklyn (Sicilian and Pugliese), there wasn't an old person around who spoke "decent" English (or Italian, for that matter). Their children all did, of course.

I have seen no proof or evidence that 2nd, 3rd and 4th generation Latinos have worse English skills than precedent immigrant groups. If you have it, I'd be happy to see it.


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## maxiogee

It's not that you can't teach an old dog new tricks, you can - but the dog needs an incentive to learn, and the teacher has to put in the time.


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## CitoyenDuMonde

Bastoune,

Vous avez raison. Most of the community colleges offer computer courses & even major course to obtain degree in spanish. Now once that person graduates with a degree without knowing english where are they going to get a job? I have seen your situation happen too many times and to make it worse they have the audacity to get upset with you when things aren't offered in english. C'est incroyable!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BTW, there are many places that offer english course free but some still refuse to take advantage of this opportunity.  Unfortunately, they are only hurting themselves.


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## Bastoune

This kind of thing happens to me on a daily basis in New York, where I am forced to speak Spanish to people either because they come up to me and can’t speak English (most of the time they don’t ask if I speak Spanish, they just speak it and expect me to cater to them) or because they can’t understand me. It’s the principle of it. I also refuse to speak English to the "ugly Americans" in Europe (when I lived there) or Québec who come there and expect everyone to speak English to them.

For someone making a respectful effort to speak English, I have no problem to speak Spanish to help out -- but come up to me and expect me to speak YOUR language to you... sorry.

It’s the principle.

On the flip-side, I have lots of Mexican and South American friends who learned the language through persistent effort. They understand the necessity and that it is correct to learn the language of the country that gives you the opportunity that your homeland did not.

You live in a country, you can learn the language so easily. There is *no* excuse. Even if someone, like Elaine described, is working three jobs (illegally), guess what -- listen to the radio in English, speak English with each other, make an effort.

"Sí, se puede" -- nice that you make your signs and chants in Spanish, too. Their supposed boycott only hurt them -- the loss of a day’s wages and the only shops that were effected were the places owned by Hispanics and frequented by illegals.


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## CitoyenDuMonde

Elaine,


I understand that some older immigrants can't speak english but at least try. I don't care if you speak broken english the key is the attempt to communicate in the language. The Governor of California has a horrible accent but we understand him perfectly. I dont have an issue with people speaking broken english. I have a problem where young immigrants "25-40" years old that have been here over 5 years and still can't speak survival english. The worst thing is they don't even ask if you speak spanish, most usually just start speaking spanish without attempting to speak english at all. BTW, I am a first generation american and I empathize with non english speaking immigrants since my mom spoke broken english herself but she spoke english. There is a bring difference when someone makes an attempt.


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## Outsider

Immigrants who can't speak the language of the country they immigrated to are nothing new: 



> Many adults today who speak only English can remember grandparents and great-grandparents who spoke very little English, who instead spoke mostly Polish, Italian, German, or Swedish - the language of the country they grew up in.
> 
> source


You get benefits from massive immigration, but I guess language diversity is part of the price you pay for it.


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## maxiogee

CitoyenDuMonde said:
			
		

> BTW, there are many places that offer english course free but some still refuse to take advantage of this opportunity.  Unfortunately, they are only hurting themselves.



That's a very chauvinistic and judgemental assertion.
Many of them would deny any hurt at all.


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## Bastoune

maxiogee said:
			
		

> That's a very chauvinistic and judgemental assertion.
> Many of them would deny any hurt at all.



How was that chauvinistic?  It's true that if you don't learn English in the U.S., you can only go so far career-wise.  Period.


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## maxiogee

By the by,
Should your thread title really be "Why latinos can't learn english!!!"?
You don't seem to be telling us why they can't, you seem to be asking us why they don't/won't.
You might like to ask a moderator to change the title and tidy it up while they're at it. I would suggest "Why don't Latinos learn English?"


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## maxiogee

Bastoune said:
			
		

> How was that chauvinistic?  It's true that if you don't learn English in the U.S., you can only go so far career-wise.  Period.



Now you're assuming that they want "careers", and not just careers, but ones with distance!


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## Bastoune

maxiogee said:
			
		

> Now you're assuming that they want "careers", and not just careers, but ones with distance!


 
That's not the definition of chauvinist. I am "assuming" they want to do well, succeed at having an excellent quality of life just like anyone. Not speaking English limits one's ability to achieve that goal in the U.S.  

When I do business in Spain, Mexico, Brazil, and Italy, I do so in the language of those countries.  When I lived in Italy and Germany, I did so in their languages.


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## ElaineG

I'm still waiting for a _single_ fact that demonstrates that Latinos learn less English than a) other contemporary immigrant groups (ever read The Spirit Catches You and You Fall Down about Hmong immigrants in California? A fascinating and almost mandatory read for anyone interested in taking more than a superficial interest in the complex issues of assimilation and immigrant isolation) or b) precedent immigrant groups.

All I've seen so far is invective and personal anecdote.

Also, oddly enough, I've lived in New York for 30+ (we'll just leave it at + ) years, and _not once has anyone ever called me or come up to me assuming I would speak Spanish_. I have had many funny, some difficult, conversations with Hispanics, Middle Eastern immigrants, thick-accented Caribbean immigrants, and a world of very hard to understand Asian immigrants and _not a one has ever assumed that the conversation could be conducted in anything other than English_.  I have seen everything deployed from gestures, to pointing, to writing (my housekeeper can write English much better than she can speak it) but I have always seen honest, sometimes desparate, attempts to communicate.

But that's just personal anecdote also.  How about some facts?


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## CitoyenDuMonde

Maxiogee,

I am new poster on this forum and do not want to quarrel with anyone regarding the title of my own thread. I respect your suggestion but if you take a look at the third paragraph you will find that I spoke briefly of one of the many reasons why some "latinos" can't learn english. Thus, your statement regarding the title of my thread is invalid. 

I am glad that we have a large group of spanish speaking people in the USA but we also have to realize that english is the dominate language of this country although there isn't an official language in the USA. 

How far can one really go without learning english in the USA although there are many that have made it. But its still a disservice to anyone that can't speak english, they will always have to rely on a translator or exploited by their *own* because they don't know there rights which are written in english. 


No tengo ningún problema con los hispanohablantes pero si ellos quieren intregarse en este país tienen que aprender el idioma. Algunos de ellos quieren crear un pequeño país adentro de Estados Unidos. Creo que no es justo. Me encanta la lengua del Cervantes!!!!!! 

Creo que es una lástima, si una persona tiene más que 20 años en este país y no puede dominar el inglés. He vivido en dos países hispanohablantes menos de un año y me puedo comunicar bastante bien. Todavía, quiero mejorar mi español!!! 






			
				maxiogee said:
			
		

> By the by,
> Should your thread title really be "Why latinos can't learn english!!!"?
> You don't seem to be telling us why they can't, you seem to be asking us why they don't/won't.
> You might like to ask a moderator to change the title and tidy it up while they're at it. I would suggest "Why don't Latinos learn English?"


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## cuchuflete

The title is misleading.   So-called Latinos can and do learn English in great numbers.  Among all immigrant groups there are people who by choice or circumstance do better at learning the new country's language.  At a wedding I attended there were grandparents who had been in the US for decades, and still spoke mostly the language of their East European birthplace.  They managed basic English.  

Most of the Spanish-speaking immigrants I've met throughout the US have at least basic English skills, and many are totally fluent in the language of their adopted homeland.  The idea that "Latinos" can't learn English is just wrong.  That some choose not to make it a priority is another matter.

Tarring millions of people with a broad brush is something some English speakers do.  I won't project from that fact that
all English speakers like to generalize excessively.


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## Tatzingo

Bastoune said:
			
		

> Aprendan inglés o regresen a sus paises!!!



Bastoune, 

I agree with some of the points that you have made but surely this last statement is a going a bit too far? Sure, there are those who pass up opportunities to learn the predominant language which may help them integrate but surely that should be their own choice? If they refuse to learn it, they themselves live with those consequences (missed opportunities, more limited employment, etc..)! 

Tatz.

Ps. Everyone, please read Bastoune's full comments above, i really don't want  the above to be taken out of context.


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## CitoyenDuMonde

Ok,

The title maybe a tad misleading because it is assuming that ALL latinos can't learn english but if you read my post it clearly mentions *some* not ALL. 


I know many colombians, peruvians, venezuelans who speak english very well. Lets not get caught up on something so small rather focus on the main points I've made.  I have mentioned that I am a 1st generation american so I know first hand people that have been in this country who have a hard time learning english but they at least try.  Again, someone mentioned her maid writes english better than she speaks it. Well, if she spoke english she probably would not be your maid and have a better paying job.  Again, in the long run it puts anyone not just latinos that do not speak english at a disadvantage.


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## ewhite

> I’m sorry, I have lived in 6 countries. I learned Italian in 6 months -- fluent, no classes, just LEARNED it from studying it on my own while I was a student in Rome (in a French school, mind you).
> 
> Aprendan inglés o regresen a sus paises!!!



There is a wonderful baseball-related expression in American English: "He was born on third base, but he thinks he hit a triple". When you were a student in Rome, at that French school, were you also working a 12-hour-a-day job? At less than minimum wage? If not, I imagine your experience was quite dissimilar from that of the average latino immigrant here in New York. Perhaps you should not extrapolate so readily from your privileged position.


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## Residente Calle 13

It also might be easier for a French-speaker to learn Italian (also a Romance language) than it is for a Spanish speaker to learn a English (a Germanic language).


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## GenJen54

This conversation reminds me of an old saying of origins unknown (said to be attributed to Native American culture, but that cannot be confirmed):

*Before you criticize another, you need to walk a mile in his shoes. *

Whose shoes have you walked in today? Only your own, or those of whom you refused assistance?

Perhaps those fortunate enough to have traveled the world, been educated, and learned languages did so upon the dime and/or charity of another. I fall into that group.

Perhaps something else that should be considered is that many of those flocking to our country do so because they seek opportunities they cannot find at home. Our low-wage jobs (even under the table) still pay more than what many are paid in their home countries. 

Many of these people are *illiterate in their own* languages (a major problem educators of "second generation" students are facing today). If they never learned to read or function in their own language, why should we impose standards on them to learn ours?

After you've immigrated to another country, _without having had the benefit of education or the ability to read_, I then challenge you to make this same judgment.


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## Bastoune

ewhite said:
			
		

> There is a wonderful baseball-related expression in American English: "He was born on third base, but he thinks he hit a triple". When you were a student in Rome, at that French school, were you also working a 12-hour-a-day job? At less than minimum wage? If not, I imagine your experience was quite dissimilar from that of the average latino immigrant here in New York. Perhaps you should not extrapolate so readily from your privileged position.


 
Actually, I worked 60 hours per week in the summer prior to going there. I saved a lot. I have worked both in companies and manual labour work since I was 15. I paid all my own studies. While in Italy I tutored German, English, and French to businessmen.

So judgemental.

And even still, with a full course load, I managed to learn Italian through mingling with Italians, listening to TV, and reading, when it was TOTALLY POSSIBLE to remain with "my own people" and never learn a thing.

I met LOTS of Americans living in Europe for YEARS who still don't speak anything but English!

And I was always bewildered and disgusted by that.


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## Bastoune

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> It also might be easier for a French-speaker to learn Italian (also a Romance language) than it is for a Spanish speaker to learn a English (a Germanic language).


 
Or a French-speaker to learn German (a Germanic language) like I did?

Or the COUNTLESS RUSSIAN, KOREAN, ARAB and CHINESE who learn English when they come to the U.S. (whose languages are WAY more distant in relation to English than is Spanish... need we name all the cognates?)

And Gen, you make an EXCELLENT point but still -- it's about the EFFORT. The EFFORT. And they are illiterate in their native tongue, well people pick up language by ear all the time. It's how I picked up some Japanese, just by listening. I can't read or write it, nor am I fluent, but I learned a lot through listening.

And with a medium like TV, and you're living in the country... no excuses.


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## Residente Calle 13

*Personal Anecdote:*

My mom and dad came to this country in their twenties. They lived in the same neighborhoods and had the same family and circle of friends. My dad worked days and went to night school to learn English. My mom stayed home to raise her children as it was the custom of the day. I doubt that there was any spare income for my mother to hire a babysitter and go to school to learn English or that this was a priority in my parents' very traditional marriage. So you can chat with my dad in English but you won't get much out of mom in Shakespeare's tongue. So if you run into my mom on Broadway and she doesn't speak English to you that's one of the reasons why.

Some of my aunts came here in their early twenties and others in their teens. The ones who were younger when they got here speak English but the older ones, despite various attempts at formal schooling, can't handle much English at all. All of my uncles learned English no matter what age. 
My grandmother, who came here in her fourties can't speak much English at all. And she's never going to. Ditto for my granfather who is now dead so there is really no hope for him.

I don't disagree with the assertion that immigrants who come here should learn English. All of my cousins who live here speak English and they should. This is their new home. I just don't think that all immigrants *can *be reasonably expected to learn English for various reasons that are obvious to anyone who stops ranting long enough to think about the issues involved.

I doubt anybody is in favor of Latinos in the US learning English more than Latinos living in the US.


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## Bastoune

Great post, RC!

You proved my point:  just make the effort!!!!! 

That's all people want and can expect!  No one is expecting a Shakespeare to spring out of nowhere!


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## ElaineG

26 posts into this thread and no one has yet taken me up on the invitation to provide me with a single _fact_ as opposed to "I walked 6 miles through the snow to go to school and so should they" type bellyaching to demonstrate that:

-- some meaningful segment of the Latino population _wants_ to be _lazy_ and not learn in English

-- some meaningful segment of the Latino population has meaningful opportunities to learn English and doesn't do so

-- that there are any notable statistical differences between Latino immigrants and other immigrant groups in this reguard.

I've issued the invitation before and neither Bastoune nor Citoyen has taken me up on it.  I'm still waiting.


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## ElaineG

CitoyenDuMonde said:
			
		

> In the USA there is a big issue about illegal immigration. Many immigrants come to the USA to achieve the "American Dream" and contribute part of their culture into the melting pot. Every non-English speaking immigrant has made an effort to communicate in English the best they can but it appears *some* Latinos refuse to learn or just don't see the reason why they need to learn the language.
> 
> I've met many Latinos and know some personally [that's very broad minded of you, Mazel Tov!]. For one, Latino is just another "label" made up only in the USA to identify a group of people who speak the same language but have completely different cultures & ethnic backgrounds. If one has ever travelled to Latin America one can see that "Latino" doesn't really exist and people are divided by the region they come from & to some extent their ethnic backgrounds but once they arrive in the USA they are suppose to be one ethnic group.
> 
> Anyway, the point I wanted to make was why so many can't learn English. I've noticed that many Latinos do not dominate their own language well, especially those from the Caribbean; most can't read nor write in their language. Although in South America this is also prevalent, in countries such as Colombia, Argentina, Uruguay, Chile, you will find many people who are very educated & well read, which to me is the key.
> 
> I just can't understand why a person who migrated to this country can't speak survival English after being in the USA for over 5 years. I've asked many why don't they learn English and some have told me they don't need to. They prefer to live in "el Barrio" where English. They barely watch English programs & listen to only the Spanish radio stations. How in the world do they expect to learn at least survival English? I recall going to a Popeye's restaurant to order a number 1 but the attendant gave me a number 4 because she didn't understand English. How the hell did she get a job serving customers if she didn't speak English? That's another topic.
> 
> 
> I am very open to many cultures and love learning different languages but it really fustrates me when I can't get someone to assist me in English. The truth is they are the ones getting hurt since they will never have a good command of the English language and will always need a translator.
> 
> I believe one should make an attempt to learn the language of their new home & learn to adapt instead of building little enclaves.


 


> Most of the community colleges offer computer courses & even major courses that enable students to obtain degrees in Spanish.


 
You know, Citoyen, with a little effort, you too might master English. Keep up the good work!


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## bella_applebottom_bebe1

Melting pot? Hmm Melting pot, I wouldn't say we are a melting pot. Melting Pot is more of an older term,and if we were a melting pot, we would all be molded and blend in to the same thing, en whitch we all know that NOOOO one is alike! Now'a days we are refferd to as (tossed saled) Because if there wasn't a mixture we would all just be lettous! Do you understand what im saying, as for the question, If we all spoke the same language wouldn't we all just be going right back to The melting pot, blending together again? If we all spoke the same language then what would make us diffrent? Just our skin color! maybe a good personality here or there? Some families dont want to lose there back ground and there culture, would it be easyer if every one spoke the same language? yes it would, but would it be better, probally not! If God wanted life to be easy, he would have made us all the same and have the same goals in life ( not trying to throw religion in this or go back to the melting pot!...LOL) If we all spoke the same language and had the same goals in life, we wouldn't have our past, we wouldnt have our ansestry or customs! I also belive its not about the latino communtiy not wanting to learn english, its that they can't. Its very hard to find a willing person that knows both English and Spanish to teach them for little or no pay, and lets face it, not every one lives the good life, some have families to take care off and bills to pay, time can be an issue. But the point i'm trying to get to is that not every one is the same, and you can't always get what you want! Every one has there own way of doing things, no matter what you race, sex, size and culture is! So lets not be the melting pot any more and blend together, lets be our own thing and just work together, in one big happy place aka (America)


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## Tatzingo

bella_applebottom_bebe1 said:
			
		

> Melting pot? Hmm Melting pot, I wouldn't say we are a melting pot. Melting Pot is more of an older term, and if we were a melting pot, we would all be molded and blend in to the same thing, en whitch we all know that NOOOO one is alike! Now'a days we are refferd to as (tossed saled) Because if there wasn't a mixture we would all just be lettous! Do you understand what im saying, as for the question, If we all spoke the same language wouldn't we all just be going right back to The melting pot, blending together again? If we all spoke the same language then what would make us diffrent? Just our skin color! maybe a good personality here or there? Some families dont want to lose there back ground and there culture, would it be easyer if every one spoke the same language? yes it would, but would it be better, probally not! If God wanted life to be easy, he would have made us all the same and have the same goals in life ( not trying to throw religion in this or go back to the melting pot!...LOL) If we all spoke the same language and had the same goals in life, we wouldn't have our past, we wouldnt have our ansestry or customs! I also belive its not about the latino communtiy not wanting to learn english, its that they can't. Its very hard to find a willing person that knows both English and Spanish to teach them for little or no pay, and lets face it, not every one lives the good life, some have families to take care off and bills to pay, time can be an issue. But the point i'm trying to get to is that not every one is the same, and you can't always get what you want! Every one has there own way of doing things, no matter what you race, sex, size and culture is! So lets not be the melting pot any more and blend together, lets be our own thing and just work together, in one big happy place aka (America)


Hello,

Some good points in there but i would ask for a bit of care with the spelling. This isn't a personal attack but as we have non-native speakers in this forum who are also learning English, it might mislead them. ;-)

Tatz.


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## CitoyenDuMonde

ElaineG,

Thank you for making those corrections, I appreciate it very much. As I have mentioned to someone else I am at work and don't have the time to proof read my post. I will keep that in mind, thanks. As I mentioned before my parents are immigrants to this country and I am a 1st generation american. I love mixture of all cultures which have made the USA a great country to live in, but when certain groups of people *expect *people to cater to them in their language rather than trying it isn't right. 

And in the long haul it will only be a detriment to them because they will always need a translator/assistance. I work for an engineering company and everyone speaks english and some foreign employees have accents which to me isn't an issue. Now how can any immigrant expect to get a job in corporate America if they can't speak english. Personally, I don't care if they don't see the rewards or benefits of learning english. I will tell you like I tell many of them. If you don't learn english you'll be working as a maid or cleaning bathrooms for the rest of your life.  Si uds. quieren conseguir el "sueño americano" tienen que aprender el idioma o mejor dicho tratar.  I've seen young immigrants 30-35 years old that have been hear for over five years and can't speak one word of english.  On the other hand, I know many other groups of immigrants in that same age group that have dominated english and have better paying jobs.      

On the other hand, I've met many Americans with the same mentality as well. Expecting everyone to speak english when they are not in an english speaking country. Afterwards, they have the nerve to call the natives of their guest country ignorant and rude because they didn't speak their language. 



			
				ElaineG said:
			
		

> You know, Citoyen, with a little effort, you too might master English. Keep up the good work!


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## plattpou

Well, heres my point of view on this one...

Its all because education, not every latino there has troubles with the language, but yes their few.

Take this in count, why on earth people with some education (mid status) for example, will be willing to risk their lives crossing a river or a desert, skip bullets, even pay for the chance, to become a weitress, work on a supermarket, cook in a chip restaurant, or other stuff... Seems to me there isnt any reason. The only way its that you truly need the money, you didnt had any aducation to handle a work that gives you enought to live here in Mexico and be someone where pays are low and you pay taxes for breathing, rather than go to the abroad and be marginated.. 

Counting on that, and steping in their feet, if you had to work since you been able to speak and walk, education goes out your used basic needs...
So, why to learn something...

The first barrier its uninterested people, who never get used to learn something they dont need to survive.

The second, the fact that being in the kind of jobs they get and because of being marginated to, they will be surrounded by their sames.. "latins", some of them english speekers, but most of them not, and all of them can comunicate quite well... therefore turning english into a non basic need for them.

So, dont make this general.. knowing this you'll notice that most every mexican or simply other language that cross the border legally, knows english. Their needs are diferent, they need to comunicate in order to buy the stuff they want, or in order to study the master degree they want. 

But trust me on this one, ones you give them the chance to be equals, they will make his best affort to become "equal", including foreing languages; because they will need it to be feel accepted, Which happen to be one of the most important basic needs for *humans*, and not just latins or americans.


----------



## Tatzingo

plattpou said:
			
		

> Well, heres my point of view on this one...
> 
> Its all because education, not every latino there has troubles with the language, but yes their few.
> 
> Take this in count, why on earth people with some education (mid status) for example, will be willing to risk their lives crossing a river or a desert, skip bullets, even pay for the chance, to become a weitress, work on a supermarket, cook in a chip restaurant, or other stuff... Seems to me there isnt any reason. The only way its that you truly need the money, you didnt had any aducation to handle a work that gives you enought to live here in Mexico and be someone where pays are low and you pay taxes for breathing, rather than go to the abroad and be marginated..
> 
> Counting on that, and steping in their feet, if you had to work since you been able to speak and walk, education goes out your used basic needs...
> So, why to learn something...
> 
> The first barrier its uninterested people, who never get used to learn something they dont need to survive.
> 
> The second, the fact that being in the kind of jobs they get and because of being marginated to, they will be surrounded by their sames.. "latins", some of them english speekers, but most of them not, and all of them can comunicate quite well... therefore turning english into a non basic need for them.
> 
> So, dont make this general.. knowing this you'll notice that most every mexican or simply other language that cross the border, legally knows english. Their needs are diferent, they need to comunicate in order to buy the stuff they want, or in order to study the master degree they want.
> 
> But trust me on this one, ones you give them the chance to be equals, they will make his best affort to become "equal", including foreing languages; because they will need it to be feel accepted, Which happen to be one of the most important basic needs for *humans*, and not just latins or americans.



Hi!

Well spoken. It's nice to hear the other side of the story.

Tatz.


----------



## Daniel4802

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> Many of these people are illiterate in their own languages (a major problem educators of "second generation" students are facing today). If they never learned to read or function in their own language, why should we impose standards on them to learn ours?


I agree with your first sentiment, but not the second.

If you come from an environment where the education you recieved is much lower than that of your new country of residence, it will be very difficult to assimilate on many levels.

My mother's brother is from Guadalajara. The pinnacle of his academic career in Mexico was the 6th grade. He is currently here in the U.S. legally with a work visa and is undertaking the long process towards citizenship.

Prior to him coming to the U.S., my uncle didn't speak any English beyond the basic "thank you" and "hello." He however wanted to improve his livlihood as well as that of his family. In order for him to better his chances here in the U.S., and provide a headstart for his children, he took the initiative to study English religiously while he was still in Mexico.

Now, approximately 2 years since he and his family came to the U.S., he speaks nearly fluent English - albeit with a very heavy Spanish accent. In addition, he further educates himself by using his childrens' middle and even high school text books which range from algebra, biology, and U.S. government/econonmics/history.

Ultimately, he has told me that he wants to pursue a career as a college professor. I have no doubt that he will accomplish that.

In terms of his children, who now are 7, 11, 14, and 16, all excel in school - with the eldest two enrolled in honors courses. Just like their father, when they came here they knew very little English. My mother would gradually speak in English more and more to them as they learned the language. The kids befriended classmates and gained valuable experience with them. Their parents pushed them to study hard and dedicate the majority of their time with school to the point to where they eventually were on par with their American-born classmates.

They took every opportunity to learn the "language of business" so that they could quickly assimilate into their new environment.

This is why I disagree with your latter question: "Why should we impose standards on them to learn ours?"

If they don't make the tremendous effort to learn English, their occupational opportunities will remain very limited. And if parents don't press their children to learn English, their family will reside in the lower class generation after generation. Thus, it means less 1st, 2nd, and 3rd generations moving out of the lower class to the middle or even upper class to assume careers as teachers, medium-to-high levels of management, or doctors.

I think a nation like the U.S. - where a portion of the already assimilated population speaks English and every other ethnic group who migrates and remains here _only_ speaks Spanish, Chinese, Arabic, etc. - would be extremely problematic on countless areas.


----------



## Kelly B

CitoyenDuMonde said:
			
		

> Now how can any immigrant expect to get a job in corporate America if they can't speak english. Personally, I don't care if they don't see the rewards or benefits of learning english. I will tell you like I tell many of them. If you don't learn english you'll be working as a maid or cleaning bathrooms for the rest of your life.


 And what's wrong with that? It's a selfless act on the part of many immigrants, really. They leave family and friends, from cultures where these are highly prized, in the hope that their _children _will speak English, and will have more opportunities than they ever expect to have themselves.

The WR community is an unusual group of people. Set modesty aside for a moment -  most people are simply not as good at it as you are, unless you were just lucky enough to grow up with your second language. Learning another language is HARD for most people (how many native English speakers know one?) and even harder for those who cannot read and write well to begin with.


----------



## GenJen54

Citoyen said:
			
		

> I will tell you like I tell many of them. If you don't learn english you'll be working as a maid or cleaning bathrooms for the rest of your life.


 
This seems a bit arrogant to me.  There might be other factors involved here than just learning English.  I'm not saying it wouldn't help, but if their education level is such that they are not functionally literate in their own language, then learning English will not necessarily help them break out of this "caste" you have assigned them to. 

Residente Calle and Daniel have both given interesting and insightful anecdotes where people have broken past this mold.  These are not quite "exceptions," but I don't believe they are necessairly the norm. 

I agree with Elaine's assessment that people seem to be singling out the Latino population, even though there are countless other cultural minority groups who function the same way - have you ever been to San Francisco?  It's not unlike New York in its status as a "tossed salad."

Obviously this issue is a concern for you. If that's the case, then *what are you doing to help?*  Perhaps in your spare time, you could volunteer your services to teach assimilation classes, or even English? 

Instead of simply complaining about it, why don't you be a part of the solution?


----------



## Bastoune

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> I agree with Elaine's assessment that people seem to be singling out the Latino population, even though there are countless other cultural minority groups who function the same way - have you ever been to San Francisco? It's not unlike New York in its status as a "tossed salad."
> 
> Obviously this issue is a concern for you. If that's the case, then *what are you doing to help?* Perhaps in your spare time, you could volunteer your services to teach assimilation classes, or even English?
> 
> Instead of simply complaining about it, why don't you be a part of the solution?


 
Latinos are being singled out (heck, I even pointed out AMERICANS overseas as a major annoyance for not adapting) because:

1) "Press '1' for English, Press '2' for Spanish" -- NOT Chinese, NOT French, NOT German, NOT Russian, NOT Italian, NOT HINDI.... but SPANISH. Why? Why them? Why is it that every other group of immigrants to the U.S. has to fend for themselves but the Hispanics can create their own little societies where they don't need or use English and then have the audacity to complain about their status when they are here illegally. 

2) We're told about their supposed "economic power" constantly -- really? Yet all along this thread we're being told, "oh those poor, defenseless, sacrificing, hard-working immigrants" -- who apparently we're being told are buying huge TVs, I-Pods, stereos, cars, etc. And they are... If they have time for these, they have time for English lessons.

3) They are the most vocal minority, yet not the largest (there are more Italian and German Americans but did they integrate or segregate themselves?).

4) In what language were the protestor's signs? In what language are people asking for bilingual services?

Hispanics are not the only culprits but they have made themselves the most visible and and most divisive.

Chinese people never just start speaking Chinese to you. Nor do Indians speak Hindi, Urdu or other tongues. 

But the Hispanics?


----------



## GenJen54

Hispanics in some states account for more than 50% of those states' populations. Texas and New Mexico are two notable examples. Colorado and Florida are close behind. My own state is now about 25%-30% hispanic. 

Many live in their own part of town, but we as a community are working hard to assimilate latino culture into our own local society. We do the same with the Vietnamese population which is also very strong. 

I note that you did not answer my other questions, which were:



> Obviously this issue is a concern for you. If that's the case, then *what are you doing to help?* Perhaps in your spare time, you could volunteer your services to teach assimilation classes, or even English?
> 
> Instead of simply complaining about it, why don't you be a part of the solution?


----------



## Bastoune

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> Hispanics in some states account for more than 50% of those state's population. Texas and New Mexico are two notable examples. Colorado is close behind. My own state is now about 25%-30% hispanic.
> 
> Many live in their own part of town, but we as a community are working hard to assimilate latino culture into our own local society. We do the same with the Vietnamese population which is also very strong.
> 
> I note that you did not answer my other questions, which were:


 
SO?!? The country used to be 50% German. New York, Italian. Brooklyn, Russian.

Your point? How is that helping assimilate anyone. You're contradicting yourself.

What am I doing? I work in a school that offers ESL.  

I help people who ask for it, but that's not my job to track down the 35% (as another poster on another thread confirmed) of the illegal Latinos in this country.

AND YOU?

And FYI, in my spare time, I'm learning Greek, going to the gym, and working a second job. I work 7 days per week and still have time to go 6 days/week to the gym for 2 1/2 hours/day, and learn Greek and brush up on my German with a tutor -- still working 60 hours/week. And I read a book a week.  

That's not even including the time I put in occasionally with Church-related functions. So what is the excuse of immigrants not to learn English?


----------



## GenJen54

> AND YOU?


I'm NOT the one complaining about it?!

P.S. If you'd see my post above, you'd also note that my original question was directed towards Citoyen de Monde, and not you.


----------



## Bastoune

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> I'm NOT the one complaining about it?!
> 
> P.S. If you'd see my post above, you'd also note that my original question was directed towards Citoyen de Monde, and not you.


 
 Touche'!!!   I mean, "You got me!"


----------



## cuchuflete

For whoever was honked off about Spanish scripts on the telephone, these were not demanded by Spanish-speakers.  They are generally offered by businesses who have the common sense to accomodate their prospective and current customers.   Tell business to ignore 10-15% of the potential market, and listen to them laugh at your ignorance of commerce.


----------



## danielfranco

Bastoune said:
			
		

> 1) "Press '1' for English, Press '2' for Spanish" -- NOT Chinese, NOT French, NOT German, NOT Russian, NOT Italian, NOT HINDI.... but SPANISH. Why? Why them? Why is it that every other group of immigrants to the U.S. has to fend for themselves but the Hispanics can create their own little societies where they don't need or use English and then have the audacity to complain about their status when they are here illegally.


Hi, forum brethren!
First of all, I want to thank everyone for sharing their very many different opinions. It has been both a learning experience and quite entertaining.
I chose to quote Bastoune _only_ for the reason that I have concrete information about this question...
According to the US Census Bureau, the 2000 Census showed that for every ten persons living in America, two of them did not speak English as their first language, and out of those two, a bit more than one of them spoke Spanish as the primary language. All the other *300* languages spoken in the USA are represented by the "other" person in this Census [the real numbers are something closer to 12% of respondents who speak Spanish as a primary language, and about 11% for all other languages].
Notice that the data doesn't tell us if this rather large chunk of the population also speaks English or not, but it does say they primarily speak Spanish (at home).
Otherwise I will not bother you with my personal opinion, unsupported by any facts, about anyone's audacity.


----------



## paulvial

could the reason that _*some *_latinos do not bother to learn english/ or perfect their basic knowledge of english, and in _*some *_cases, as reported in _*some*_ of your comments, expect you to speak spanish without even bothering to enquire whether you do speak and understand it , be a reflection of the huge numbers of latinos in the US ? thus forming such a large community as to making them feel as if they don't need to learn or perfect their english: in other words another community within a community 
this may be a problem not necessarily unique to latinos.


----------



## ElaineG

> In what language were the protestor's signs? In what language are people asking for bilingual services?


 
Here in New York local law requires the provision of covered government services in Arabic, Chinese, Haitian Creole, Korean, Russian and Spanish.  School materials (to communicate with parents) are translated into the above languages as well as Urdu and Hindi.

Most bank machines offer at least one if not more Asian languages, in addition to other neighborhood dependent languages.

In the legal volunteer work I do with immigrants, I would say that the population that is most difficult to reach, both because they speak the least English and because we lack the language skills to reach them, are the Fujianese immigrants from China who staff most of New York's sweatshops.

As reflecting our diverse immigrant community, I saw signs at my local demonstration in Arabic, Chinese, Hindi as well as Spanish (and the vast majority) English.  When I have the opportunity, I will upload my photos so you can see some documentation.



> We're told about their supposed "economic power" constantly -- really? Yet all along this thread we're being told, "oh those poor, defenseless, sacrificing, hard-working immigrants" -- who apparently we're being told are buying huge TVs, I-Pods, stereos, cars, etc. And they are... If they have time for these, they have time for English lessons.


 
Are you really so ignorant that you can't distinguish between second and third generation Hispanics who have moved into the political and economic mainstream, and have considerable buying power, and (the focus of yesterday's protests) illegal and undocumented first-generation immigrants (Hispanics and not) who live on the margins of our society?  

If you cannot, I invite you first to visit one of the largely Cuban towns in Hudson County, New Jersey, where Cuban Americans have been living and thriving since the Cuban revolution.  Some of the luxest weddings I've ever attended have been in those towns.  I have no doubt of their political and economic power.  Next, visit Riverside Park, in the lower 100s, during the day.  Walk down by the river: You will see Mexican men -- all wearing the white garb of restaurant workers -- sleeping on the side of the hill, taking turns to watch over one another. 

To lump those people together under the umbrella "Latino" and make contradictory and poorly reasoned points on that basis is, I hate to say it, nothing short of ignorant.



> They are the most vocal minority, yet not the largest (there are more Italian and German Americans but did they integrate or segregate themselves?).


 
Actually, upon arrival in this country, Italian immigrants segregated themselves, and were segregated.  My old neighborhood of Carroll Gardens, Brooklyn, is one, where until the recent wave of yuppiedom, all the stores were Italian and Italian dialects were routinely the language of commerce.  As I mentioned before, the old people there still speak their local dialects in preference to English.

These "Little Italy's" -- born out of both discrimination and self-segregation -- are all over America, from St. Petersburg Florida to San Francisco.  That subsequent generations became Americanized -- and moved first to Bay Ridge, and then to Long Island and New Jersey, and then eventually became virtually indistinguishable from the rest of America, tells us little about what took place during the height of Italian immigration 2 and 3 generations ago.

My immigrant antecedents too lived in monolingual "ghettos" and only the 2nd and 3rd generation "integrated". (Watch the movie Hester Street, for an interesting, if sentimentalized glimpse of this world).

I am STILL waiting for any facts you have to back up your emotional and impressionistic arguments.  

So far, you have betrayed a singular lack of knowledge about American constitutional law and immigration history.  But I know that there must be _something_ behind your arguments other than just impressionistic prejudice and resentment.

So let's see it -- do some research, find some facts, I'm waiting!


----------



## maxiogee

CitoyenDuMonde said:
			
		

> Maxiogee,
> 
> I am new poster on this forum and do not want to quarrel with anyone regarding the title of my own thread. I respect your suggestion but if you take a look at the third paragraph you will find that I spoke briefly of one of the many reasons why some "latinos" can't learn english. Thus, your statement regarding the title of my thread is invalid.




Respectfully,
Your third paragraph…


> Anyway, the point I wanted to make was why so many can't learn english. I've noticed that many latinos do not dominate their own language well especially those from the caribbean most can't read nor write in their language. Although in South America this is also prevelant but countries such as Colombia, Argentina, Uruguay, Chile you will find many people who are very educated & well read which to me is the key.


…spoke not about learning English at all. You merely state that many Latinos are not very fluent in their own langauge. What has that got to do with learning English? Many Irish are not fluent in English, one of our official languages. Even more are not even conversant with Irish, the other official language. Illiteracy is international. Would you let only the literate Latinos into your country?

Then I see comments such as…


> If you don't learn english you'll be working as a maid or cleaning bathrooms for the rest of your life.


… and have to wonder about…
--- the implicit notion that money is the goal in life;
--- the sweeping generalisation you make;

(a) the comment that "The Governor of California has a horrible accent but we understand him perfectly"
--- how hard do "we" try to understand those who differ from "us"?

(b) you wrote in Spanish (pardon my translation, I don't know Spanish) about those... wanting to create a small homeland in the United States.
--- is this a bad thing? Is the United States now officially an English-speaking country, and is it's culture determined? Many, many communities within the US began as mini-homelands for immigrant communities. Their children and grandchildren were brought up speaking English whilst the immigrant generation held onto their mother-tongue. Would you require present day immigrants to be different.

(c) You have made the point repeatedly about


> in the long run it puts anyone not just latinos that do not speak english at a disadvantage.


--- That surely depends on everyone playing to the same rule-book. Maybe these people you seem so concerned about aren't playing the same life-game you're playing. Maybe their goals are different from yours.

(d) you return to the 'problem' from a different angle


> And in the long haul it will only be a detriment to them because they will always need a translator/assistance.


--- not if there is a spanish-speaking service provider or shopkeeper out there. This little homeland you mentioned earlier, that is a place they inhabit, and wish to inhabit, because it provides for all their needs, in their own language.

(e) Again in Spanish, I see you mention "wanting to achieve the American Dream" (loose translation)
--- how do you know that they do want this 'for themselves'? Many who immigrate just want 'a better life' for themselves (vast numbers of Irish did this) but only think of the immensely better opportunities in terms of their children - this is their right.

All in all, from what you have said, and what those who hold the same opinions have said I would draw the conclusion that you are not really concerned about why these people don't/won't or can't learn English, what really concerns you is that they cling to their difference. 
People who thyink like this strike me as *immensely* intolerant.


----------



## cuchuflete

Those who propose, so passionately, that immigrants to the US should/ought to/must/are damned fools if the don't....learn English, because if they don't they will have limitied economic prospects....do not, I suspect, give a flying fig about the economic advancement of the poor immigrants.

What really bothers them is their own personal convenience.  It's easier to have everyone, including the cleaning staff and garbage collectors, speak one's own language.  How can you boss someone around if they don't understand your commands?


----------



## ewhite

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> What really bothers them is their own personal convenience.  It's easier to have everyone, including the cleaning staff and garbage collectors, speak one's own language.  How can you boss someone around if they don't understand your commands?



And how infuriating is it when one of their number approaches you on the street and speaks in his/her native language, implying as it does that they think you are one of them?

And yes, I am judgemental, at least as judgemental as the one who says, if you don't learn English, leave the country.

As ElaineG mentioned above, immigrants in this country have a long history of maintaining neighborhoods or towns wherein the old language is the common tongue. I live in one of those neighborhoods (Greenpoint, Brooklyn, where 5% of the absentee ballots in a recent Polish general election were cast). 
As opposed to the mallification assailing the rest of New York City, Greenpoint is filled with small independent butchers, bakers, greengrocers, florists, dress shops. You are  much more likely to hear Polish on the streets than either Spanish or English. 
Are the young men, who work mainly in non-union construction and asbestos removal, making much of an effort to learn English? And the young women, who clean offices at night, doing so?  I think not. They are too busy surviving. But their children will speak English, and move out of Greenpoint,  coming back on the weekends for the _bigos_ and _golumki_.


----------



## lizzeymac

As regards this notion that immigrants decide to live in enclaves rather than integrating themseles into nice Americanized neighborhoods as some hostile unpatriotic insular act. Balls!  New immigrants have rarely been welcome in those nice english speaking neighborhoods & certainly could not afford them on the sub-poverty wages they are paid.  My grandparents were 2nd generation Americans of  Irish & French Canadian descent & couldn't rent a house in Boston or Rhode Island in the early 1900s - there were signs put up in public saying "No Irish, Coloreds or Dogs". We don't have the signs but people still have prejudices about living near immigrants.  It isn't that hard to understand that new immigrants would feel more comfortable living with people they could talk to & had some common culture with.  Some of the first zoning laws in New York City in the late 1880s limited the number of children that could live in one house or apartment.  Catholic Irish, Italian, Polish, Hungarian, and Jewish   immigrants had fairly large families & this was a way controlling where they lived.  The areas immigrants were "encouraged" to live in had allowed many more children per home - areas like the slums of the Lower East Side.  The more affluent neighborhoods allowed fewer children per home, though these limitation notoriously were never enforced againt Anglo Saxon Americans. 
Of course life would be simpler if everyone spoke lovely english the instant the arrived or even 1 year after they arrived.  But they don't, so how about we cut them some slack as they care for our children, bus the tables & wash the dishes at resturants, care for our elders, pick all the fruits & vegetables, clean your homes, gut chickens in a factory, deliver lunch to your office & pizza to your home and mow the lawns.
-


----------



## CitoyenDuMonde

Thank you everyone for expressing your opinions regarding this topic. I would like to say that it was very interesting. For the poster who asked if I am doing something to help these immigrants, I would like to let you know that I am a part-time ESL teacher and *love* to help ALL immigrants improve their livelyhood in their new adopted home. Many of my comments were arrogant and a tad bit cold, but I believe the first thing an immigrant should do is learn the language of the host country in order to make their transition easier. 

As I mentioned before I am a 1st generation american and the country my parents were born is labeled as one of the poorest in the western hemisphere and illiteracy rate is very high. I was fortunate to come from a middle class family that did not fit the typical stereotypes of the mass. Regardless, my parents faced discrimination and had to deal with alot of ignorant people. The main reason why they accelerated in this country is due to their ambition & knowledge of english. During the early 60's an immigrant of color that had an accent dealt with alot of racism from everyone. 

When my parents migrated here they learned the language and did their best to communicate with people outside of their culture to improve their english. My older (3) brothers who were not born in the USA came to this country with a solid knowledge of english (ten years after my parents). I grew up in a home where speaking more than one language was the norm. It is always an advantage to learn the language no matter if you are working three or more jobs. Knowledge is power.


----------



## lazarus1907

CitoyenDuMonde said:
			
		

> Anyway, the point I wanted to make was why so many can't learn english. I've noticed that many latinos do not dominate their own language well especially those from the caribbean most can't read nor write in their language. Although in South America this is also prevelant but countries such as Colombia, Argentina, Uruguay, Chile you will find many people who are very educated & well read which to me is the key.


 If people can't learn their own language properly, how do you expect them to be able to learn a foreign one? Besides, those you are mentioning are likely to have a poor education, and live among many other Spanish-speaking immigrants who don't want to learn, but know that they can manage because there are too many of them. I am sure there are many who speak perfect English. I don't speak perfect English, but I don't do too bad either.

Which reminds me of some people from USA who came to Spain to learn the language and couldn't speak decently after living for two or three years. How is this possible? They spent all the time with a large group of other students from the same country who couldn't speak either. Avoid small shops where you may have to ask for things, go to a big store where everything is on display, get what you need, go to the cash point... and no need to speak a word. Of course there are some who managed to speak and write better than many natives as well.


----------



## Residente Calle 13

lazarus1907 said:
			
		

> If people can't learn their own language properly, how do you expect them to be able to learn a foreign one?



I think that to say that someone can't speak their own language properly is akin to saying a trout cannot swim properly or that a sparrow can't fly properly. Unless the trout, that sparrow, that person has some sort of pathology, they do what they are genetically programmed to do.

What some people don't appear to do is speak a "standard" version of a particular dialect properly. Most Latin Americans speak their Spanish okay, what they don't seem to all do is speak a standard verision very well. Many don't write well but that's a literacy issue not a linguistic one.

I can't speak Standard Spanish well. I'm a master of Dominican grammar and their is such a thing. I can't spell well in Spanish but that's a reading/writing issue not a talking one. I don't need speech therapy.



			
				lazarus1907 said:
			
		

> Which reminds me of some people from USA who came to Spain to learn the language and couldn't speak decently after living for two or three years.



Maybe that was not their real aim. Maybe they went to Spain for other reasons. I hear it's a lovely country. The language is not the only thing Spain has got going for her. 

Which reminds me, some immigrants don't come hear to stay and may feel the incentive to learn English is not that strong. Many immigrants come here, save enough money,and then go home. I know many Dominicans who have done this and read about many Italian immigrants who did this in the early 1900s.

One story I read in "Christ Stopped in Eboli" by Carlo Levi was about a Sicilian who spoke terrible English and even worse Italian. Maybe he didn't feel he really needed either one of those languages.


----------



## plattpou

Well residente calle 13,  i will say there, how can you teach someone to speak, if hi's not able to write...  The time they need to spend to acheive that its quite much for those people, and more because their not childrens anymore. You can learn easily when you're young, but you lose that as you grow up.


----------



## Bastoune

ElaineG said:
			
		

> Here in New York local law requires the provision of covered government services in Arabic, Chinese, Haitian Creole, Korean, Russian and Spanish. School materials (to communicate with parents) are translated into the above languages as well as Urdu and Hindi.
> 
> Most bank machines offer at least one if not more Asian languages, in addition to other neighborhood dependent languages.
> 
> In the legal volunteer work I do with immigrants, I would say that the population that is most difficult to reach, both because they speak the least English and because we lack the language skills to reach them, are the Fujianese immigrants from China who staff most of New York's sweatshops.
> 
> As reflecting our diverse immigrant community, I saw signs at my local demonstration in Arabic, Chinese, Hindi as well as Spanish (and the vast majority) English. When I have the opportunity, I will upload my photos so you can see some documentation.
> 
> *Good!  However, there are several hundreds MORE languages being ignored... why is that?*
> 
> Are you really so ignorant that you can't distinguish between second and third generation Hispanics who have moved into the political and economic mainstream, and have considerable buying power, and (the focus of yesterday's protests) illegal and undocumented first-generation immigrants (Hispanics and not) who live on the margins of our society?
> 
> *They are not the ones at issue. But I am reminded of how the ghettos in the U.S. (I think of NYC in particular) people are on welfare yet can afford big stereos, TV's and i-pods... yet can't feed their kids.*
> 
> If you cannot, I invite you first to visit one of the largely Cuban towns in Hudson County, New Jersey, where Cuban Americans have been living and thriving since the Cuban revolution. Some of the luxest weddings I've ever attended have been in those towns. I have no doubt of their political and economic power. Next, visit Riverside Park, in the lower 100s, during the day. Walk down by the river: You will see Mexican men -- all wearing the white garb of restaurant workers -- sleeping on the side of the hill, taking turns to watch over one another.
> 
> To lump those people together under the umbrella "Latino" and make contradictory and poorly reasoned points on that basis is, I hate to say it, nothing short of ignorant.
> 
> *I never lumped them together. Again, I have stated hundreds of times I have lots of Latino friends here -- many ILLEGAL -- and they still agree that English is necessary. That is my only point. The Americans abroad who live 15 years in a country and never learn the local language and customs are exactly the same, if not worse.*
> 
> Actually, upon arrival in this country, Italian immigrants segregated themselves, and were segregated. My old neighborhood of Carroll Gardens, Brooklyn, is one, where until the recent wave of yuppiedom, all the stores were Italian and Italian dialects were routinely the language of commerce. As I mentioned before, the old people there still speak their local dialects in preference to English.
> 
> These "Little Italy's" -- born out of both discrimination and self-segregation -- are all over America, from St. Petersburg Florida to San Francisco. That subsequent generations became Americanized -- and moved first to Bay Ridge, and then to Long Island and New Jersey, and then eventually became virtually indistinguishable from the rest of America, tells us little about what took place during the height of Italian immigration 2 and 3 generations ago.
> 
> My immigrant antecedents too lived in monolingual "ghettos" and only the 2nd and 3rd generation "integrated". (Watch the movie Hester Street, for an interesting, if sentimentalized glimpse of this world).
> 
> *Yes, out of descrimination... but didn't they learn English eventually? Yes? Did they have everything given to them in their tongue or did they, like millions of others, assimilate?*
> 
> I am STILL waiting for any facts you have to back up your emotional and impressionistic arguments.
> 
> *Facts? Just as I was typing this I received a call to my school by a unilingual hispanophone requesting info about computer courses -- but of course, they are offered in ENGLISH ONLY (this IS the United States after all). Incredible!!!*
> 
> *I am not obligated to cater to the Russians, the Koreans, the Albanians, the Italians the Indonesians, the Indians, etc. -- but EVERY DAY I HAVE TO SPEAK SPANISH IN STORES IN ORDER TO BE SERVED BY PEOPLE (WHO ARE ILLEGAL, btw), BECAUSE THEY DON'T SPEAK ENGLISH.
> 
> I am tired of it.
> 
> If other hard-working Hispanics can learn English, so can these others who still refuse. How easy it is to MAKE AN EFFORT when you live in the country!!!
> 
> I have little pity when I know tons of immigrants in their situation who work just as hard if not more so, and learn English.
> 
> And the whole thing about the U.S. "needing" them economically? Uh-uh. If the low-wage job market weren't so saturated with illegals, there are millions of people from all over the world trying to enter the U.S. through LEGAL MEANS who are more than willing to take their place.
> 
> Think about it.
> 
> I apologize if you're offended but my experience is valid. We're not talking "one time" we're talking EVERY DAY. So from now on I am just going to impose the French language and culture of Québec on everyone and they'll have to deal with it.*
> 
> 
> 
> So far, you have betrayed a singular lack of knowledge about American constitutional law and immigration history. But I know that there must be _something_ behind your arguments other than just impressionistic prejudice and resentment.
> 
> So let's see it -- do some research, find some facts, I'm waiting!
> 
> *See below.*


 
Population migration and growth in the U.S. 


The majority of Americans descend from European immigrants who either arrived after the establishment of the first English colonies or the Reconstruction period in 1863-1877. This majority is expected to become a plurality by 2050. The largest ethnic group of European ancestry is German at 15.2 percent, followed by Irish (10.8%), English (8.7%), Italian (5.6%) and Scandinavian (3.7%). Many immigrants also hail from Slavic countries, such as Poland and Russia, as well as from French Canada.

Moderator intervention: Excessive quote has been removed to bring the citation into accord with WR rule for quoted material.  Full text is visible at the link below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States


----------



## Residente Calle 13

plattpou said:
			
		

> Well residente calle 13,  i will say there, how can you teach someone to speak, if hi's not able to write...



The human race has been writing for about 6,000 years, and many people who can't write speak today, and speaking anywhere from 150,000-900,000 years.

In those 6,000 years, not everybody knows how to write but every group of humans talked. There is a great deal of documented cases of people without a written language and most languages in the world are not written down. I would say less than one percent are.

Plenty of people learn their native language and many others without being able to write. But I would not argue that literacy does not simplify language learning among many other things.


----------



## Bastoune

RC 13 brings up some great points.  Also, a lot of people learn a second language solely through listening when they go to a place.  I picked up a lot of Japanese that way, from being surrounded by Japanese in the workplace or in Japan.  I eventually would hear and see in context what the words were about and "absorb" them, without ever knowing how to write them.


----------



## Vanda

Well, I ´ll speak for my people *only*! Don´t know about the others... My people don´t learn En, because it´s not their objective. As many people in this thread have already said, the only reason many persons go to USA is to work. My state is the biggest illegal immigrants exporter to the USA. There´s a city here that is almost literally maintained by dollars their relatives send from USA. The commerce in this city even accepts dollars for most transactions! Whenever they are extradited and they are interviewed they say that if they could they´ll try entering illegally again to work and make money. What for? To come home, buy their houses and have money to live _here_. They work hours and hours just to amass money!
BTW, I ´m not being judgemental whether this is right or not, I´m telling what happens in this context. 

On the other hand, those going there to learn En won´t be found working in restaurants or whatever - but in the very good schools their parents can afford - be it in the States or Uk  or Australia , among others! And I can tell you: there are many!


----------



## ElaineG

> *Good! However, there are several hundreds MORE languages being ignored... why is that?*


 
What is your argument? The government uses its limited resources to provide services in the languages for which there is the most demand. If you are in the hospital or involved with the criminal justice system, you can request translation services in _whatever_ your native language is, and you will be provided with support services.

Are you now arguing that the government should provide services in every conceivable language that an immigrant might speak? I thought your point was that they should all learn English. Logic, please!



> *They are not the ones at issue. But I am reminded of how the ghettos in the U.S. (I think of NYC in particular) people are on welfare yet can afford big stereos, TV's and i-pods... yet can't feed their kids.*


 
There is an enormous amount of stereotyping and hyperbole that goes on around that issue. I have not seen a lot of hard-core statistical data about this issue. In my experience working with underclass immigrants, they tend to have very very very few possessions. It might stun you to see how few. It is true that underclass people sometimes spend their money on luxury goods, and you may view this as a problem. Many community organizations view money-management skills as one of the basic and fundamental needs of underprivileged communities.



> *Yes, out of discrimination... but didn't they learn English eventually? Yes? Did they have everything given to them in their language or did they, like millions of others, assimilate?*


 
As I've said before, my great-grandparents learned a rudimentary form of English after many many years in this country. Their descendants progressively assimilated.

Is there _any_ evidence that the same is not/will not be true of Latinos? Any?



> *Facts? Just as I was typing this I received a call to my school by a unilingual hispanophone requesting info about computer courses -- but of course, they are offered in ENGLISH ONLY (this IS the United States after all). Incredible!!!*


 
Fine, so your school doesn't offer that service. This being a free-market driven economy, I'm sure that customer will go somewhere else that does. I seem to recall in my youth attending art history classes in Paris that were given in English. I suppose the professors should have disregarded the enormous market of Anglophone Francophiles and screamed "This IS France after all." My mother just got back from a cooking seminar in Italy, given in English. It would have been better, I'm sure for someone to point out that that "was Italy after all."



> *And the whole thing about the U.S. "needing" them economically? Uh-uh. If the low-wage job market weren't so saturated with illegals, there are millions of people from all over the world trying to enter the U.S. through LEGAL MEANS who are more than willing to take their place. *


 
Do you have any idea how the immigration system works? The entire point of this debate is that there is a tight limit on the number of people who can enter the country legally. The illegals aren't taking jobs from legals for the simple reason that we have a contradictory system that creates more demand for labor than it allows in. Moreover, the illegals, by virtue of being illegal, cost a fraction of what it costs to hire a legal employee (no Social Security, payroll tax, benefits, minimum wage laws, UI, etc. etc.). The economic issue of whether businesses (especially small businesses) can _afford_ to replace illegal labor with legal labor is very tricky, and I don't think I know the answer, do you?



> *I apologize if you're offended but my experience is valid. We're not talking "one time" we're talking EVERY DAY. So from now on I am just going to impose the French language and culture of Québec on everyone and they'll have to deal with it.*


 
Go right ahead. Start speaking French to everyone. It might pose a problem at your job, but I think you'll find the majority of New Yorkers will go out of their way to try to help you. 

Re: Facts.

Thanks for the extended Wiki citation on immigration demographics. I might yawn or say, "Duh!" but maybe it was interesting to someone here. _No one_ is contending that there is not an enormous amount of Hispanic immigration.

As I've said (this is the third time now), what is missing are _any_ facts that support your _thesis that some segment of the Hispanic population is willfully refusing to learn English such as facts demonstrating that_:



> some meaningful segment of the Latino population _wants_ to be _lazy_ and not learn in English
> 
> -- some meaningful segment of the Latino population has meaningful opportunities to learn English and doesn't do so
> 
> -- that there are any notable statistical differences between Latino immigrants and other immigrant groups in this reguard.


 
Finally, do you live in an Hispanic neighborhood? I've lived in NY for 30+ years (I feel like a broken record), and have never been _forced_ to speak Spanish in any store. In many neighborhoods -- ranging from Jackson Heights [Indian] to Washington Heights [Dominican] to Flushing's Chinatown -- I've had to do business by pointing, guessing and laughing. This is _not unique_ to Hispanics (you need to get out more) but a function of the diversity of our city. I'm sure all those shopkeepers' children will speak English (unless they belong to a willfully hermetic community -- such as the Hasidic Jews* or some extreme Muslim groups -- who believe that contact with the outside world is evil).

*Interestingly, the only community that I've had any experiences with where 2nd and 3rd generations speak no English is the Hasidim of Boro Park and (to a lesser extent) Williamsburg. Because their children are not permitted to attend the public schools, and television is also forbidden, you can encounter a third-generation American who does not even speak survival English. I've never had that experience in any Hispanic neighborhood. But this being America, we view it as the Hasidim's right to live that way -- I haven't seen anyone suggesting that they should be forced to learn English. (And yes, a large proportion of the Hasidic population receives welfare and other social services, and yes, the government provides translation services).


----------



## plattpou

OK, RC13 you have a point there... what i mean there is that it will  be harder for the teachers, since their not children and dont know how to write in most cases. But i agree with you that the words somehow are going to be absorbed, they just have to live in the context and get familiar with the terms.


----------



## plach1956

"Regresen a su países?" How many millions? Sorry, that won't happen. So you might as well get used to it. Welcome to the real United States. You might even learn something from those Spanish-speaking workers beyond the narrow existence of some professionals. Sí se puede.


----------



## Residente Calle 13

plach1956 said:
			
		

> "Regresen a su países?" How many millions? Sorry, that won't happen. So you might as well get used to it. Welcome to the real United States. You might even learn something from those Spanish-speaking workers beyond the narrow existence of some professionals. Sí se puede.


¡O que se regese él al suyo! Aquí no hay idioma oficial. Al que no le guste que no se lo coma.


----------



## Bastoune

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> ¡O que se regese él al suyo! Aquí no hay idioma oficial. Al que no le guste que no se lo coma.



Yo regreso alli' al fin del ano!!!  Y creame, si no hay idioma oficial aqui, YO puedo hablar solamente en MI IDIOMA aqui, y nadie no puede decir nada!!!

*Let me reiterate something. There are good and bad people, hard-working and lazy, smart and dumb, ignorant and cultured in every culture, every ethnicity.

Parler du loup, I just registered a kind, funny, warm-hearted, LEGAL immigrant from El Salvador for some English courses. We had a long conversation todo en espanol, since he barely speaks a word of English. He knows some basic phrases and expressions but nothing more. In El Salvador he was a computer technician and even instructor. Here, he works in a factory doing manual labour. He said to me that he needs to learn English for a better life here because he'll never be able to go back to doing what he loves doing if he doesn't learn English.

He has smarts and the desire. I think his story of determination for coming to the United States is very inspiring.

I would like to think that the majority of Hispanic immigrants are like he is. I truly believe they are. But he, like many others I have met here, are indeed LEGAL. They did what they had to and got their papers and greencard.

Now they wish to contribute something back and at the same time improve their own lives for themselves and their families.

I want it to be clear that I know that we're talking generalities here. This guy from El Salvador wants so much to master English. Other people in my own neighbourhood in Astoria, Queens (with a large Greek population, lots of Brazilians, Egyptians, Magrebins and even French from France) among the Hispanic and Brazilian communities who don't care to learn the language. Why not?

And Elaine, you seem to contradict yourself when you say, "haven't you heard of second generation...?" when it comes to the "spending power" of Hispanics. OK -- but you're confused and mixing apples with oranges. If we are talking about "second generation" Hispanic spending power, they should be integrated, no? So why the marketing en español? The largest ethnic community in the United States is German. Wo sind die Anziegen auf Deutsch? 
*


----------



## cuchuflete

> *I think his story of determination for coming to the United States is very inspiring.*


 You then point out, for reasons that prove something to somebody who already agrees with you...that he is "legal".

Well since you bring up determination as one of the few nice things you find to say about immigrants, what do you think is required to be an _illegal_ immigrant who arrives in a country where the language, the customs, and everything else are foreign, and where you are at legal risks as well?

I join you in applauding the determinatin of immigrants.  Unlike you, I don't limit that admiration and applause to those who meet your linguistic standards.  

When my father's father got off a boat at Ellis Island, he spoke five or six languages.  English was not one of them.
That's why my last name, like that of millions of others in the US, is an invention of a minor bureaucrat.  He came to the US with determination to be free of fear, and to work.  Learning the language was not high on his list of objectives.
He had more basic needs to attend to.


----------



## GenJen54

To me there is a rather arrogant undercurrent running through this thread: those whose complaints about the issue are loudest wish to impose their own standards on others, when such standards are not necessarily shared. 

Would learning English be helpful to a great number of immigrants? No doubt. But, it is also entirely dependent upon any one of their individual situations, and their reason for coming here. 

Some come because they want the kind of experience of the El Salvadorian gentleman described in Bastoune's Post (#62). They had a decent job, and in coming into our country, understand that learning English increases their potential for success in this country. 

Others come simply wishing to escape the oppresion (political or otherwise) under which they live in their own countries. They might not have the same "pull myself up from the bootstraps" mentality that we are born with in the U.S. To them, "getting by" might just be good enough, even if that _does not include_ learning Engish. 

Imposing our "if I were in another country, I would learn xxx" is not acting out in charity towards these people. Rather, it is imposing *our* values on them; values which they simply may not share. 

If I recall correctly, when Emma Lazarus penned "The New Colossus," a part of which was later enscribed on the Statue of Liberty, no where in the poem did she suggest anyone learn English.

_Give me your tired, your poor,_
_Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,_
_The wretched refuse of your teeming shore._
_ Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:_
_ I lift my lamp beside the golden door._​


----------



## Bastoune

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> You then point out, for reasons that prove something to somebody who already agrees with you...that he is "legal".
> 
> Well since you bring up determination as one of the few nice things you find to say about immigrants, what do you think is required to be an _illegal_ immigrant who arrives in a country where the language, the customs, and everything else are foreign, and where you are at legal risks as well?
> 
> I join you in applauding the determinatin of immigrants. Unlike you, I don't limit that admiration and applause to those who meet your linguistic standards.
> 
> When my father's father got off a boat at Ellis Island, he spoke five or six languages. English was not one of them.
> That's why my last name, like that of millions of others in the US, is an invention of a minor bureaucrat. He came to the US with determination to be free of fear, and to work. Learning the language was not high on his list of objectives.
> He had more basic needs to attend to.


 
Leave it to someone to misread me again. I am bringing up that he is LEGAL because, well -- guess what? That's the way you do things.

If you enter a country and work there illegally, fine. Honestly, I don't care. But don't go and complain when you don't get your way. The country owes you nothing. Don't pretend to be part of a country that you are not part of.

I am American-born of Canadian parents, raised in Canada (Quebec) because my dad didn't want to expose me to the dangers of living in the U.S. 

My parents were working in Chicago and met there. Within Canada, my background is one of farmers, lumberjacks (how stereotypical, but true) and TEACHERS. But see how much work my ancestors did to provide a better life for their large families.  My ancestors had to face prejudice constantly in their own country at the hands of the English imperialists.

The solution:  EDUCATION, EDUCATION, EDUCATION!!!!!!!!!!   Hard work, perfect your French, learn and master English, learn a trade, build for the future.  That is why Quebec is the wonderful place it is.  AND Hispanics there learn French!!!!!!

I am only staying in the U.S. another 6 months or so then I am returning to Montreal because I am not happy in this country. One of the reasons is the lack of culture and refinement of the people -- natives and immigrants behave like noisy savages, with no respect for other people.

The "ugly American" or the "Hispano feo" or the "tete carree" who refuses to speak French in Quebec -- all products of ignorance and disrespect. Period.

But that does not mean, NOR DID I SAY, that all immigrants who can't speak English (well or at all) are lazy!!!!

I'm targeting the lazy ones. And there are plenty. But sadly, they are the ones I encounter most often. And most of them have their own jobs, nicer places than I do, yet don't pay taxes, don't learn English... associate only with their own countrymen and look down on "gringos" -- and then out of ignorance lump ME into the category of Anglo. UGH!!! Why not just say, all Asians look alike, like we Frenchies are just like Anglos.


----------



## Residente Calle 13

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> _Give me your tired, your poor,_
> _Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,_
> _The wretched refuse of your teeming shore._
> _ Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:_
> _ I lift my lamp beside the golden door._​



Might I suggest that we have been consistently making, out of this principle, the most influential country, by many measures, not just today, but perhaps always, in the history of the world.

It's not like it's dysfunctional. The nation built on immigration, which allows immigrants to assimilate at a natural rate,  is not exactly a failure by any measure.


----------



## Bastoune

Yep, send them to America -- and have them register like they did at Ellis Island.


----------



## Residente Calle 13

Bastoune said:
			
		

> Yep, send them to America -- and have them register like they did at Ellis Island.



Bon, je n'ai qu'une chose à dire:

Ça marche plûtot bien autrement vous seriez pas lá.

*
Well, I just have one thing to say:

It works more or less well otherwise you wouldn't be here.*


----------



## maxiogee

Many got there long before Ellis Island was only opened in 1892, and closed again in 1954. Not very long in terms of the many who arrived overall.


----------



## cuchuflete

How can anyone misunderstand this?  It's easy!





			
				I don't dislike illegal immigrants said:
			
		

> I'm targeting the lazy ones. Identifiable by their lack of mastery of English?  Or, do they wear a badge that proclaims, "I'm one of the lazy ones."? And there are plenty. Yes, of course, crossing the dessert is just what lazy people do, in search of work.   But sadly, they are the ones I encounter most often. They don't do things the way you would have them do things, hence you call them 'lazy'.  And most of them have their own jobs Jobs? Oh, so lazy people work at jobs!  Funny, I thought lazy people avoided jobs.   , nicer places than I do Perhaps they show their laziness enough to earn enough to have a nice place., yet don't pay taxes How do you know who does and doesn't pay taxes, or how much they pay?  , don't learn English There's your beef...they don't do it your way.... associate only with their own countrymen Freedom of association...another messy American cultural tradition...but I'm sure you could tell them who to associate with, and why, and the world would be a better place  and look down on "gringos" Unlike you, who just declared that "gringos" have a culture and level of refinement that isn't up to your standards...and there is no misunderstanding here. You stated it "*the lack of culture and refinement of the people -- natives and immigrants behave like noisy savages*" -- and then out of ignorance lump ME into the category of Anglo  while you have already told us countless times that you are better, speak more languages, work harder, and find Americans and so many who would be Americans just not up to your own very high standards..... UGH!!! Indeed!  That's what such superiority evokes.   Why not just say, all Asians look alike, like we Frenchies are just like Anglos.



May the six months or so pass quickly, for the mutual comfort of all concerned, and may those who suffer "the dangers of living in the U.S." be quickly and safely returned to civilization.


----------



## Chaska Ñawi

I'm not certain that Canada is civilized enough to conform to these very exacting standards.   After all, we have millions of descendants of immigrants who haven't bothered to learn Cree, Ojibwa, Metis, etc.

You'd better keep him for a while longer while we get our linguistic act together.


----------



## cuchuflete

We appreciate the Canadian generosity you so kindly express. This noisy savage would never try to keep a guest who is so obviously distressed, but thanks anyway, Chaska.


----------



## maxiogee

A fable for this thread.

Our school had a small gymnasium.
Not large enough to afford the various sports played there a place of their own. The solution was to mark out the courts for the different games in 
different colours.
Basketball was white,
Tennis was blue,
Soccer was red,
and something else was green.
This mattered not a jot to those who played competitive games there. They soon got used to which lines applied to them. When it did matter was in the students' own time. Then people played whatever they cared for all together, and all at the one time. It was not unusual for one end to be playing football while at the other end basketball was being practised.
We grew accustomed to side-stepping those who were not playing our game. Maybe these troublesome non-English-speaking Latinos are playing at the other end of the great gymnasium which is the USA.

(In the game of life I often feel like I've been equipped with rugby boots and a tennis racquet and sent onto a golf course - without a rulebook!)


----------



## ElaineG

> *And Elaine, you seem to contradict yourself when you say, "haven't you heard of second generation...?" when it comes to the "spending power" of Hispanics. OK -- but you're confused and mixing apples with oranges. If we are talking about "second generation" Hispanic spending power, they should be integrated, no? So why the marketing en español? The largest ethnic community in the United States is German. Wo sind die Anziegen auf Deutsch? *


 
Not at all.  The second generation often uses its first language at home, and English in the outside world.  Marketing in Spanish is not simply a method of reaching customers who can't otherwise understand; it's a tailored strategy designed to show customers that they care about making them feel comfortable.

A second-generation, or long-established first-generation Hispanic immigrant, might be perfectly capable of opening a bank account in English.  But by postering in Spanish, a large national bank attempts to show that customer that it cares about putting him/her at ease.

Think about George Bush tossing a few words off in Spanish (or singing the national anthem in Spanish) at campaign events.  He's not trying to communicate because otherwise the voters (all legals, obviously) wouldn't understand him.  He's trying to communicate a message of care.

As for the Germans, the peak periods of German immigration to this country were in the *1850s* and *1880s*.  The last significant wave of German immigration came in the years just before WWII, when German Jews and others fled the Nazi regime.  In 1971-1980, only 65,000 Germans migrated to the United States.  http://www.loc.gov/rr/european/imde/germchro.html  Time enough to assimilate, you think?  Want to know what the Dominican population of the United States will look like in 2140?  Maybe a lot like the German population does now.

In fact, in the 1850s, Germans tended to live in German enclaves and be subjected to discrimination and hostile anti-immigrant sentiment.  They even tried to form their _own state_. 



> Germans, like other immigrant groups, settled with other speakers of their language from the area of their birth, where they felt at home away from home....While there were attempts to form a new German state in the colonies, such as in Texas in the 1840s, none came into fruition....  *While Germans worked with other ethnicities, they most often spent their leisure time with other Germans.  Enterprising German-language organizations grew up around the country, from singing societies and athletic clubs to charitable groups.*


 
http://www.germany.info/relaunch/culture/ger_americans/paper.html

Sound familiar, Bastoune?

By the way, we're at 70+ posts, and I still don't have any data for your thesis about "some" Latinos other than your personal impressions.  My questions to you have gone noticeably unanswered, even though I've tried to answer all of yours.  Are we really dealing with any kind of phenomenon here or just the fact that you've met some folks who you don't like?


----------



## Bastoune

ElaineG said:
			
		

> Not at all. The second generation often uses its first language at home, and English in the outside world.


 
Thank you. "English in the outside world."

'Nuff said.

The bank does nothing to put at ease any of the other ethnicities the same way... especially since shouldn't the second-generation be "at ease" in English?

And your German quote? BIG DEAL!  So do Italian Americans and other ethnicities.  But they don't not speak English!!!!!   

Show me the Germans got the same favoritism the Hispanics are getting.

You haven't proven a point.  

You are the one spouting hypotheticals, when I've given specifics. So you're spinning your wheels in the butter. Your post didn't accomplish or "prove" anything but your own opinion.


----------



## cuchuflete

> *The bank does nothing to put at ease any of the other ethnicities the same way*... especially since shouldn't the second-generation be "at ease" in English?



Take a subway to Chinatown, then eat your words.


----------



## Bastoune

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Take a subway to Chinatown, then eat your words.


 
Yep -- IN CHINATOWN.  Not across the board.  If I *call* the bank's customer service, do they have "for Chinese, press 2?"  What about Italians?  Malaysians?  Koreans?  Russians?  Arabs?  Germans?

Now eat yours.


----------



## cuchuflete

> Show me the Germans got the same favoritism the Hispanics are getting.



Show me the favoritism "the Hispanics" are getting!  Banks, retailers, utility companies convery messages in multiple languages today.  They didn't do that in the 1850s, for the most part.  Hmmm, could it be that as a society, or as smart merchants, some folks have progressed?  Maybe that's the source of the contention.  Some people would like to turn the clock back to the 'good old ways'.  Let's remember that those ways included slavery, open, public, and even legislated bigotry.  

Should we deny women the vote while we're at it?  How about a poll tax? Lynch mobs?

The world has evolved.  No hace falta echarse contra el mundo en protesta.


----------



## ElaineG

Bastoune said:
			
		

> Thank you. "English in the outside world."
> 
> 'Nuff said.
> 
> The bank does nothing to put at ease any of the other ethnicities the same way... especially since shouldn't the second-generation be "at ease" in English?  Actually, my bank, one of the largest in New York (I won't name it) has a branch in Chinatown where business is conducted solely in Chinese.  The branch near my house prominently advertises loan officers who speak Russian and Arabic.  My doctor's office advertises that it speaks Hebrew and Italian.   Marketers market _to everyone_.
> 
> And your German quote? BIG DEAL! So do Italian Americans and other ethnicities. But they don't not speak English!!!!! Huh?  That doesn't make any sense.  Do you know how to read?  My quotes were describing Germans in the 19th century.  Guess what?  Germans and Italians in the 19th century _didn't speak English_.  You really need to study some history dude.
> 
> Show me the Germans got the same favoritism the Hispanics are getting.  I still don't know what "favoritism" we're talking about because you haven't cited any facts in that department.  I pointed out to you that city we both live in offers services in several key foreign languages.  I really don't know what "favoritism" you have in mind.
> 
> In fact, the Germans were discriminated against, hostilely treated and shunned, as were the Irish, the Italians, the Jews, the Poles, and southern Blacks who "emigrated" North, in their turn.  If more services are offered to immigrants today, it's because -- as a nation of immigrants -- we have become less discriminatory and more inclusive.  Obviously, not all of us.
> 
> You haven't proven a point.   I don't have a point to prove, you do.  I've disproven every one of your points, however.
> 
> You are the one spouting hypotheticals, do you know what the word "hypothetical" means?  Please identify a single hypothetical in any of my posts.   when I've given specifics. What specifics? I provided links, citations, data, and you haven't answered a single one of my questions.  So you're spinning your wheels in the butter. Your post didn't accomplish or "prove" anything but your own opinion.  What is this opinion that you think I have?  Please try to state it.  (Other than "Bastoune talks nonsense") I'm debating your thesis, not trying to prove one of my own).




Immigration policy is complex.  As I stated in an earlier post, I'm not sure what the right solution from an economic or legal perspective is.

You started this thread because you have a thesis that some Latinos are lazy, unable or unwilling to learn English ..... and?  I don't have a point to prove - you do.

I've asked you time and time again to demonstrate that this is a statistically identifiable trend and/or that it is distinct from other ethnic groups, now or in previous eras.  You've ignored those requests.


----------



## cuchuflete

Bastoune said:
			
		

> Yep -- IN CHINATOWN.  Not across the board.  If I *call* the bank's customer service, do they have "for Chinese, press 2?" What about Italians? Malaysians? Koreans? Russians? Arabs? Germans?
> 
> Now eat yours.



You simply demonstrate a pitiful ignorance of commercial economics.  When a bank has a current and potential customer base that makes it profitable to invest in multilingual means of contact, they do so.  It's based on that arcane science called arithmetic.   2+2 >3<5.

Would you like mustard on yours?


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## Bastoune

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Show me the favoritism "the Hispanics" are getting! Banks, retailers, utility companies convery messages in multiple languages today. They didn't do that in the 1850s, for the most part. Hmmm, could it be that as a society, or as smart merchants, some folks have progressed? Maybe that's the source of the contention. Some people would like to turn the clock back to the 'good old ways'. Let's remember that those ways included slavery, open, public, and even legislated bigotry.
> 
> Should we deny women the vote while we're at it? How about a poll tax? Lynch mobs?
> 
> The world has evolved. No hace falta echarse contra el mundo en protesta.


 
An interesting Latino perpective:

http://www.latinopundit.com/latino/archives/000980.html

How does catering to Hispanics at the expense of others show "progress"?

Now your examples are ridiculous grasping at straws to prove a point you don't have.

Why is it that EVERY DAY in New York City, I am FORCED to speak Spanish because someone refuses to speak English in this country?  EVERY DAY.


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## GenJen54

Bastoune said:
			
		

> Why is it that EVERY DAY in New York City, I am FORCED to speak Spanish because someone refuses to speak English in this country? EVERY DAY.


 
Why are you being forced? Is someone tying you down and holding a gun to your head? Don't you also have the RIGHT to REFUSE to do so? A simple "No hablo" might just do the trick. 

You complain, yet you give in to the problem and propagate it by not pushing others to comply with the rules you demand of them.


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## beishanto

I am from Spain, and I love my language, but I also love English language because it has given me the opportunity to get to know a lot of interesting people that, otherwise, it would be impossible to talk to, to communicate with. 
if you to US you have to learn English, same that if you come to Spain you would have to learn Spanish. 
People let´s understand each other, languages are for that, just for that, communication. 
Big hug for The US from Spain, I miss the land of opportunities...


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## cuchuflete

Since you have proved so adept at ignoring Elaine's repeated, cordial requests for facts, and not just personal vitriol disguised as anecdotal evidence, I'll offer you yet another chance to back up your assertions.

I ask you to offer up an example of 'catering to Hispanics' together with factual evidence that this 'catering' comes at the expense of others.   

You have a point.  Your posts reek of it.  You really dislike people who don't do things your way, such that you call them lazy, and accuse them of having jobs, all in the same contorted sentence.   

Respectfully,
A noisy, uncultured native

PS- Does a culturally superior sense of everything suggest that one doesn't win adherents to an argument by behaving in such a manner?


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## Bastoune

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> Why are you being forced? Is someone tying you down and holding a gun to your head? Don't you also have the RIGHT to REFUSE to do so? A simple "No hablo" might just do the trick.
> 
> You complain, yet you give in to the problem and propogate it by not pushing others to comply with the rules you demand of them.


 
Why?  I go to a grocery store to buy food or clothes store and I can't ask for help in English (or French, or German, or Portuguese, or Italian...), I am required to ask in Spanish or not at all because no one speaks English, or I have to take an extra search in order to get service.  

In both my jobs people approach me without even asking if I speak Spanish, and say, "Bueno, quiero saber... necesito..." without even attempting to speak English, without even asking if I speak Spanish (or want to)... just like the "ugly American" who goes from country to country forcing his language on others.  There is no "I'm sorry, I don't speak well..." no remorse, no politeness.

This happens on a daily basis in NYC.  It's also common in Montreal with anglophones or immigrants from India or China who learn English, but not French (the official language).

Is this NORMAL behavior?  Is this what people are supposed to do when they move to a country?  

Try that in France.  Try that in Germany.  You won't last a day.


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## maxiogee

Bastoune said:
			
		

> Why is it that EVERY DAY in New York City, I am FORCED to speak Spanish because someone refuses to speak English in this country?  EVERY DAY.



Who is doing this forcing?
Can you not just 'be strong' and not accede.

Answer ElaineG's questions or leave the pitch, please. You are becoming tiresome - no, you passed tiresome a while ago, you are now qaulifying as boring.
You are arguing around and around in circles, advertising nothing but your bigotry and unwillingness to respond to a request to back up your assertions.


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## Bastoune

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Since you have proved so adept at ignoring Elaine's repeated, cordial requests for facts, and not just personal vitriol disguised as anecdotal evidence, I'll offer you yet another chance to back up your assertions.
> 
> I ask you to offer up an example of 'catering to Hispanics' together with factual evidence that this 'catering' comes at the expense of others.
> 
> You have a point. Your posts reek of it. You really dislike people who don't do things your way, such that you call them lazy, and accuse them of having jobs, all in the same contorted sentence.
> 
> Respectfully,
> A noisy, uncultured native
> 
> PS- Does a culturally superior sense of everything suggest that one doesn't win adherents to an argument by behaving in such a manner?


 
Apparently you're taking this to a personal level which is against the rules of this forum.  Grow up.

I have given several SPECIFIC EXAMPLES.  You don't like it?  Tough.  It's a daily reality for me.

Should I just speak French from now on to everyone everywhere?  Why not?  And if they don't like it, then they're racist!!!

You have yet to do anything but whine rather than answer my examples.

FOR THE BILLIONTH TIME:
Being comfortable w/one's own ethnicity and maintaining one's heritage is NOT AT ISSUE HERE.  What is, is the fact that people, Americans, Ecuadoreans, Chinese, ANYONE, move to a country and make no effort to assimilate.

Is that acceptable?  IS IT?

Can you answer my question?


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## Bastoune

maxiogee said:
			
		

> Who is doing this forcing?
> Can you not just 'be strong' and not accede.
> 
> Answer ElaineG's questions or leave the pitch, please. You are becoming tiresome - no, you passed tiresome a while ago, you are now qaulifying as boring.
> You are arguing around and around in circles, advertising nothing but your bigotry and unwillingness to respond to a request to back up your assertions.


 
I'm tired of being ignored, insulted, and having words put in my mouth. ElaineG's not answered my questions and I have answered hers. 

Is it correct behavior for people to move to a country and expect everyone else to cater to them in their language? YES OR NO.


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## ElaineG

> I go to a grocery store to buy food or clothes store and I can't ask for help in English (or French, or German, or Portuguese, or Italian...), I am required to ask in Spanish or not at all because no one speaks English, or I have to take an extra search in order to get service.


 
Bastoune, WHERE ARE YOU SHOPPING?  I have lived in a zillion neighborhoods in New York including Loisaida in the late 80s, and I have _never_ had that experience.  Maybe a bit of a language block at the bodega on the corner, but not in any Manhattan clothing store or major grocery store.

I have never had these experiences that you claim to have had _every day_.

Other New Yorkers?  I know you are out there.

Bastoune, I hate to say it, but I think you maybe have an active imagination.


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## GenJen54

> Try that in France. Try that in Germany. You won't last a day.


 
I've lived in France (and do speak the language). I've been to Germany, Italy, Hungary and other European countries whose languages I don't speak. I got by just fine. Admittedly, I always asked "Do you speak English or French?" But in general, I had no problems at all. 

Did I at least attempt a word or two?  Yes.  (okay, Hungary was a notable exception).  

Did I have problems?  YES.  But they were not insurmountable.

Once again, however, YOU have the right to:

NOT go to the stores where you know only Spanish is spoken;
NOT return the favor of those who speak only Spanish to you by telling them you DON'T SPEAK SPANISH? Is it honest? No. Would it perhaps solve their problem by teaching them they cannot get away with speaking Spanish all the time? Perhaps. 

Here's an idea - just hand them a card of the school where you work and tell them that you teach English there.


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## maxiogee

Bastoune said:
			
		

> FOR THE BILLIONTH TIME:
> 
> 
> Can you answer my question?



ElaineG is waiting for you to go first.    

You *do have* a source for your assertions, don't you?


----------



## Bastoune

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> I've been to France (but do speak the language). I've been to Germany, Italy, Hungary and other European countries whose languages I don't speak. I got by just fine. Admittedly, I always asked "Do you speak English or French?" But in general, I had no problems at all.
> 
> Once again, however, YOU have the right to:
> 
> NOT go to the stores where you know only Spanish is spoken;
> NOT return the favor of those who speak only Spanish to you by telling them you DON'T SPEAK SPANISH? Is it honest? No. Would it perhaps solve their problem by teaching them they cannot get away with speaking Spanish all the time? Perhaps.
> 
> Here's an idea - just hand them a card of the school where you work and tell them that you teach English there. At


 
GREAT IDEA! 

About Germany or the other countries: DID YOU LIVE THERE?  Ask the residents of Mannheim, Munich or Bamberg what they think of the Americans living there.

To ElaineG:  where am I shopping?  Manhattan and Queens.  Near work and near home.  But my point is, in my jobs, only the Hispanics come up and insist they be spoken to in Spanish.  No one else does that.  Not even the chauvinistic French!


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## cuchuflete

So very sorry to correct you on Canadian law....



> This happens on a daily basis in NYC. It's also common in Montreal with anglophones or immigrants from India or China who learn English, but not French (*one of *the official language*s*).



Well maybe the immigrants from India or China who meet your determination test, who are not lazy, as witnessed by their having learned English, are doing some of what you advocate: They are learning a host country language to better themselves.   

I think you are just in a lather because they learned English before French, that you are therefore feeling very put-upon and unappreciated, and that you've brought that baggage south.


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## Bastoune

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> Why are you being forced? Is someone tying you down and holding a gun to your head? Don't you also have the RIGHT to REFUSE to do so? A simple "No hablo" might just do the trick.
> 
> .


 
It doesn't.  I say, "Sorry... No."  And they say, "Bueno, entonces, quiero saber..." anyway.

Just like Americans who SHOUT English at non-English-speakers to be understood.


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## ElaineG

> ElaineG's not answered my questions and I have answered hers.


 
Bastoune: With reference to post number, and with quotes, please show me any question of yours I have not answered.

Please, again, with reference to post number and quotes, please show me where you have answered the questions I outlined in detail in Post 27 (and have alluded to some 6 other times in this thread).



> To ElaineG: where am I shopping? Manhattan and Queens. Near work and near home. But my point is, in my jobs, only the Hispanics come up and insist they be spoken to in Spanish. No one else does that. Not even the chauvinistic French!


 
What are you doing Sunday afternoon? I'd like you to take me on a tour of some of these stores where you are forced to speak Spanish. We can report back to the forum on Monday.  Since it's a constant phenomenon, I'm sure we'll run up against many many instances of it.


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## maxiogee

Bastoune said:
			
		

> Is it correct behavior for people to move to a country and expect everyone else to cater to them in their language? YES OR NO.


You cannot demand a Yes or No answer from me for a contentious question. I am not on trial, and were I, I would decline to answer you.
You first of all have to *prove* that they 'expect'.
After that, I would say that when anyone comes to a new country it is wrong to expect them to learn the local language when they don't actually need to.
I would expect the first Antarctican to come to Ireland to make an effort to learn how to communicate with the locals.
When several thousand are assembled in a small area I would understand if new arrivals found that they didn't actually need to learn one of our languages.
Does that answer you?


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## Bastoune

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> So very sorry to correct you on Canadian law....
> 
> 
> 
> Well maybe the immigrants from India or China who meet your determination test, who are not lazy, as witnessed by their having learned English, are doing some of what you advocate: They are learning a host country language to better themselves.
> 
> I think you are just in a lather because they learned English before French, that you are therefore feeling very put-upon and unappreciated, and that you've brought that baggage south.


 
The official language of Quebec is FRENCH.  The immigrants spoke English before they arrived in Canada.  If they don't want to learn French they can move to Toronto.

I've lived 8 years in Europe and 7 in New York -- more than I have in Canada.  

YAWN.


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## GenJen54

> only the Hispanics come up and insist they be spoken to in Spanish. No one else does that. Not even the chauvinistic French!


 
Then be just as insistent back.  Speak to them only in English, or break out in German, Polish, Japanese or any of the other languages you said you knew.  

Tell them (nicely, of course) if they want to talk to you, then you're afraid they have to learn English.  It is your job, afterall.  If they cannot comply, then walk away.


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## Bastoune

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> Then be just as insistent back. Speak to them only in English, or break out in German, Polish, Japanese or any of the other languages you said you knew.
> 
> Tell them (nicely, of course) if they want to talk to you, then you're afraid they have to learn English. It is your job, afterall. If they cannot comply, then walk away.


 
That's what I'll do.

Elaine:  #74... but you know what, do so in a private message.

Since no one thinks it's rude to move to a new country and refuse to assimilate to any degree, I'm fighting a lost cause.


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## ElaineG

> Elaine: #74... but you know what, do so in a private message.


 
I reread my post #74. I did not find in it any answers to my questions or questions that you had asked that I did not address.

That's why I asked for quotes.


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## cuchuflete

" You have yet to do anything but whine rather than answer my examples.  "   I answered one a few pages back, word by
illogical word, erroneous phrase by erroneous phrase.   I rebutted the falsehoods and distortions and outright bigotry, and you did not respond to an iota of that rebuttal.  See post #70.



> What is, is the fact that people, Americans, Ecuadoreans, Chinese, ANYONE, move to a country and make no effort to assimilate.  *How do you know, with such conviction, what efforts people may have made to assimilate?  You quoted some stuff from wikipedia that clearly states that half the Hispanic immigrants in the US have been here less than five years.  Is it that they haven't assimilated fast enough for you?  Most immigrant groups take two to three generations.  *
> 
> Is that acceptable?  IS IT? *I'm perfectly comfortable with rates of assimilation by current immigrants.  So are most of my friends and neighbors.  We are all natives or naturalized citizens, and we don't share your problem, or perception of a problem.
> 
> *To be clear:  *Yes, it is acceptable.*
> 
> Can you answer my question?  *I did, and I trust you won't care for the answer.  That's your right.  *



By the way, there is nothing in the US Constitution, nor in US immigration law, that demands assimilation.  Personally, I'm all for assimilation, but I see no need to shove it down anyone's throat as a requirement.  If, by dint of circumstances or choice, an immigrant chooses to assimilate slowly, little, or not at all, I don't feel threatened or injured.


----------



## Bastoune

beishanto said:
			
		

> I am from Spain, and I love my language, but I also love English language because it has given me the opportunity to get to know a lot of interesting people that, otherwise, it would be impossible to talk to, to communicate with.
> if you to US you have to learn English, same that if you come to Spain you would have to learn Spanish.
> People let´s understand each other, languages are for that, just for that, communication.
> Big hug for The US from Spain, I miss the land of opportunities...


 
YO AMO A SU PAIS!!! Mi sobrina Stéphanie vivia en el país vasco cuando yo vivia en Francia... tengo mucho amor por España y su história. La gente es muy cariñosa y tengo muchos recuerdos alegres de mis viajes allí (en Asturias, en Euskadi, en Catalunya, en los Pyreneos...). Gracias por su comentarios (los primeros de esta discusión que no fueran contra mí!)


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## ewhite

ElaineG said:
			
		

> Bastoune, WHERE ARE YOU SHOPPING?  I have lived in a zillion neighborhoods in New York including Loisaida in the late 80s, and I have _never_ had that experience.  Maybe a bit of a language block at the bodega on the corner, but not in any Manhattan clothing store or major grocery store.
> 
> I have never had these experiences that you claim to have had _every day_.
> 
> Other New Yorkers?  I know you are out there.
> 
> Bastoune, I hate to say it, but I think you maybe have an active imagination.



Well, occasionally one of the cashiers at the greengrocer will count out my change in Polish, but otherwise I do not ever remember being forced to speak, or even understand Spanish. Astoria must be a strange and terrible place. Or else they really are just out to get him.


----------



## cuchuflete

I didn't tell you what the official language of Quebec is, I told you in very simple words that English is an official language of Canada.  Last I heard, Quebec was still part of that great country.

Now we are back to unproved assertions...that 'the immigrants' spoke English before they arrived in Canada.
That's probably as true for some as it is patently false for others.  But the generalization sits there, looking rather as lame as the assertions that those who don't learn English in the US are lazy.  



			
				Bastoune said:
			
		

> The official language of Quebec is FRENCH. The immigrants spoke English before they arrived in Canada. If they don't want to learn French they can move to Toronto.
> 
> I've lived 8 years in Europe and 7 in New York -- more than I have in Canada.
> 
> YAWN.


----------



## GenJen54

I'm putting on the big old MOD HAT. 

This thread is closed. Everybody please go back to your respective *boroughs* (or burrows, if you have them) and take some time to chill out!


----------



## cuchuflete

ewhite said:
			
		

> Astoria must be a strange and terrible place. Or else they really are just out to get him.



You're onto something EWhite!  One of my sons lived in Astoria, and I spent a fair amount of time there with him.  It's a wonderful melting pot, where you can here a dozen languages on the same street corner.  I never once encountered anyone who expected me to speak Spanish, but I was addressed in Greek and in Arabic a few times.   

Pssssssst!  It didn't hurt my feelings...not even one little bit.


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