# objective/subjective conjugation: Egy versét már ismerjük



## CapnPrep

The choice between subjective (or indefinite) vs. objective (or definite) verb forms in Hungarian was discussed in this earlier thread:
*definite vs  indefinite conjugation*

Here is another example taken from the Assimil book (lesson 40):Kossuth Lajos és Petőfi Sándor (*egy versét már ismerjük!*), az 1848-as forradalom és szabadságharc hősei voltak.​[Petőfi's poem "Fa leszek…" was part of lesson 31.] Can someone explain why the objective form _ismerjük_ is used here? Would it also be possible to say "Egy versét már ismerünk" (perhaps with a slightly different meaning)?


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## Encolpius

I think, but don't take me seriously and let's wait for Zsanna, that you got confused by the "egy". It looks, it is the indefinite article, but it is not. Egy in this special case means "az egyik" (one of the). 

1) ismerjük a verset
2) ismerünk egy verset
3) ismerjük Ady Endre versét
4) ismerjük Ady Endre egy(ik) versét
5) ismerjük egy versét / az egyik versét Ady Endrének
6) ismerünk egy verset Ady Endrétől

so you can say: 

1) egy versét már ismerjük (I find this a little bit more formal than the ones below)
2) egyik versét már ismerjük
3) az egyik versét már ismerjük


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## Zsanna

In other words... *egy* (indefinite article -> needing the subjective conjugation) is not the same as *egyik* (shortened to *egy* in your quotation), meaning _one of the_... which includes the definite article (even if it doesn't appear visibly) which will need the objective conjugation.
I would say that "egy versét már ismerünk" should be possible if what is meant is really the indefinite article (so an unstressed "one").


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## MSZ

Zsanna said:


> In other words... *egy* (indefinite article -> needing the subjective conjugation) is not the same as *egyik* (shortened to *egy* in your quotation), meaning _one of the_... which includes the definite article (even if it doesn't appear visibly) which will need the objective conjugation.
> I would say that "egy versét már ismerünk" should be possible if what is meant is really the indefinite article (so an unstressed "one").



My 2 cents' worth:
I find that last quoted phrase really strange. For me, even when *egy* is unstressed and means the indefinite article, the fact that *versét *is a possessed noun forces the entire noun phrase to be definite. So, while I can intuit what the phrase means with the indefinite/subjective conjugation (especially if *versét* is emphasized contrastively: "egy _versét_ már ismerünk" - "it's a _poem_ of his that we've seen") it just sounds wrong to me. The definite/objective conjugation is also wrong, in a sense, because we are talking about an indefinite phrase (or trying to ), but for me, the definite wins out.  I've been trying to think of examples where this is not the case, without success. To take another example: "Egy _kutyáját_ fogtak el (nem egy _macskáját_)". Again, I'd say *fogták*, although with the feeling that something is not quite right. I suspect that different people might differ on such a fine, fine point. Can we hear from other Hungarian speakers?


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## Encolpius

I can imagine only these sentences sound natural: 

1) Egy versét majd megismerjük. 
2) Egy versét majd megismerünk.


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## Zsanna

Encolpius has found the sentences that sound OK...

It is possible that some variations are used more often than others but to use the indefinite article and the objcetive conjugation is not correct grammatically.

There is a rule that if the object has a possessive suffix, the objective conjugation should be used. This is also why the "egy versét már ismerünk"/ "egy kutyáját fogtak el" sound strange. 
Both would be more natural without the possessive: egy verset már ismerünk tőle/ csak egy kutyát fogtak el.
On the other hand, you can hear sentences like this, too: *egy fiát ismerek* - _I know one of his sons._ 
(Brr.) It doesn't sound very nice, either, but I it is certainly used (especially in the countryside, I'd think.)

Compare also: 
Subejctive conjugation: *Két könyvemet kölcsönkért* (a sokból)._ He borrowed two of my books (I have a lot of books)._ 
Objective conjugation: *Két könyvemet kölcsönkérte* (mindkettőt)._ He borrowed my two books (= both; I have two books)_.


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## Csaba

That doesn't sound right Zsanna, you should say
*A két könyvemet kölcsönkérte*, I think. Yours sounds at least like a forced example.


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## Zsanna

Actually it comes from a grammar book published by the Debreceni Nyári Egyetem (in 1998), entitled _Grammaire Pratique du Hongrois._ 
Obviously it is possible with the definite article (or having "mindkét" instead) and probably it would even sound better like that. 
However, the point is that language learners can meet such a situation when the same sentence can be interpreted in different ways and the example helps them to tackle the problem. (This is how it all joins the original question: the things you have to look out for when you have to decide between O.C. and S.C.)


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## Encolpius

Zsanna said:


> Encolpius has found the sentences that sound OK... Compare also:
> Subejctive conjugation: *Két könyvemet kölcsönkért* (a sokból)._ He borrowed two of my books (I have a lot of books)._
> Objective conjugation: *Két könyvemet kölcsönkérte* (mindkettőt)._ He borrowed my two books (= both; I have two books)_.



I am flattered.  But you have found a better sentence. The first one is completely OK in this context: Képzeld csak el...az a bolond Pityu...két könyvemet (már) kölcsön is kért, a másik kettőre, tudod, amelyiket még el sem olvastam... I think spoken Hungarian (or other languages) works wonders. 
or:...két könyvemet kölcsönkért, két könyvemet állítólag most olvas...hát ez döbbent...
The sentences are crazy, but the point is, spoken langauges are something completely different to what we learn at the Academy.

But putting books away, I think this is even better: Figyeljen szomszéd! Két nyulamat megsütött! Egy nyulamat agyonvert az a taknyos kölke! Két nyulamat ott kergetett a bolond kutyája hajnalban a kertvégiben...Mit akar még kend? 

Do you need more??


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## Encolpius

Zsanna said:


> ...On the other hand, you can hear sentences like this, too: *egy fiát ismerek* - _I know one of his sons._
> (Brr.) It doesn't sound very nice, either, but I it is certainly used (especially in the countryside, I'd think.)_.._.



Brr..Zsanna. it really sounds odd. What about doing something with it? How about this: Három fiát ismerek. Két fiát kedvelek. Egy fiát szeretek.  I think the stress is very intensive on the verb in all cases.


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## Zsanna

Let us not "conjugate" it! 
It just wanted to give another example for this structure:
indefinite article+ noun with possessive conjugation + verb in SC
... aaand show that it does sound strange (not only the original example) - nevertheless it still exists (that example came from the Nyelvművelő kézikönyv, if I'm not mistaken).


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## Zsanna

Now, it's my turn to put questions! 
What do the underlined bits mean in your examples?


Encolpius said:


> ... Képzeld csak el...az a bolond Pityu...két könyvemet (már) kölcsön is kért, a másik kettőre, tudod, amelyiket még el sem olvastam...
> or:...két könyvemet kölcsönkért, két könyvemet állítólag most olvas...hát ez döbbent...


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## Encolpius

Zsanna said:


> Now, it's my turn to put questions!
> What do the underlined bits mean in your examples?



1)a másik kettőre, tudod, amelyiket még el sem olvastam... ..amelyeket...
it really does not matter what it means. it can mean anything. that is not the point. (but I wanted to say: a másik kettőre..meg feni a fogát. 

2) hát ez döbbent  I wanted to say: hát ez döbbenet.


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## Zsanna

It _does_ matter. 
Thank you for the explanation.


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