# Verbs formed by prefix+chodzić and having perfective aspect



## Lorenc

I'm reviewing the complicated topic of verbs of motion in Polish. Specifically, I'm now looking at verbs obtained from _iść/chodzić_ by addition of a prefix, such as _dojść_, _przejść _and so on. I had a close look at my trusty PWN-Oxford dictionary (I'm using the version on CD from 2006) and noticed that sometimes verbs of the _-chodzić _type are listed as a separate headword from the _-jść/-chodzić_ aspectual pair and this second headword has perfective aspect.
I'd like to discuss here only two such examples which are surprising to me, so much so that I suspect they may be mistakes in the dictionary.
The first is _wchodzić_. The basic meaning (imperfective aspect) is, of course,  `enter, come in' and in this case pairs with _wejść_. The PWN dictionary lists the following second meaning with supposedly perfective aspect:

wchodzić (2) dokonany nieprzechodni (wcinać się) [_cypel_, _półwysep_] to jut (w coś onto sth); [_zatoka_] to cut (w coś into sth)
I've found these examples online:
Cypel wchodzi daleko w morze.
Zatoka wchodzi głęboko w ląd.

In both cases it seems to me that the aspect is imperfective (i.e., those examples are in the present tense); if fact I do not see why the PWN dictionary lists this meaning as separate from the main entry as it seems natural to me that a promontory or peninsula `enters' into the sea or that a bay `enters' into the mainland.
An analogous situation is for _dochodzić_. The second, supposedly perfective headword is (I summarised it and omitted the translations):

dochodzić (2) dokonany nieprzechodni
1. (prowadzić) [_droga_, _ulica_] to lead (do czegoś to sth); łąka dochodzi do rzeki
2. (kursować) [_pociąg_, _autobus_] to go as far; winda dochodzi tylko do piątego piętra the lift; czy tam dochodzi autobus miejski?
3. (zbliżać się) to get on for; “która godzina?” – “dochodzi jedenasta”

My observations are the same as for _wchodzić_. The aspect looks imperfective to me and, besides, I don't see why these meaning are listed separately from the main headword. I would be interested to know what native speakers think about this.

L.


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## marco_2

Hello Lorenc, my guess is that the authors of this dictionary were considering *the exact meaning *of these verbs, not grammar, aspect etc. So when _I'm entering the room (Wchodzę do pokoju)_, I'm moving, when _the peninsula or promontory 'enters' into the sea, _they don't move, that's why the authors listed these meanings separately - being perfective or imperfective wasn't important at this moment. I think this is the only explanation.

M.


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## Karton Realista

Both of those words are imperfective, you can judge it simply by the fact that they exist in present tense. This rule has no exceptions. I don't know what the authors meant, but this is at worst wrong and at best utterly confusing.


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## Ben Jamin

It seems to me that tha authors of the dictionary were confused by the apparent lack of motion in the grammatically imperfective motion verb. Here we have a grammatically imperfective verb of motion, with a "perfective" meaning. The authors tried to solve the problem, but failed. There are actually more such verbs, like "zwieszać się", "zwracać się", "biec", "przebiegać", "wcinać się", all of them about perfectly stationary situations.


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## jasio

Lorenc said:


> if fact I do not see why the PWN dictionary lists this meaning as separate from the main entry as it seems natural to me that a promontory or peninsula `enters' into the sea or that a bay `enters' into the mainland.
> (...)
> I don't see why these meaning are listed separately from the main headword.



Dictionaries (at least the good ones) tend to precisely separate various meanings of a word even, if in the target language the equivalent word would be the same as for the main headword. In fact you admitted it yourself by placing 'enter' in apostrophes. In this case a peninsula does not literally enter (or rather: walk into, as the literal meaning of "chodzić" and its derivatives is "to walk") the sea, because it does not have legs*, and I do not think anyone has ever seen a peninsula which walked out of the sea to walk on the ground. It simply is there. The same applies to the meadow, lift, bus, hour etc. In all cases "chodzić" is used in a metaphorical sense.

The aspect has already been discussed earlier.



*) There is a joke based on different meanings of "wchodzić" which is known in Poland and in some other Slavic countries (I've heard it in Polish and Ukrainian): "Ile jajek wejdzie do szklanki?" "Żadne, bo jajka nie mają nóg".


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## Lorenc

Thank you all for the answers! I'd like to discuss some of the points raised.

1) marco_2 and Ben Jamin suggested that in quoted meanings `dochodzić' was classified as perfective because of the absence of any real motion. To be honest, I don't see how lack of motion has anything to with aspect, after all there are tons of imperfective verbs without any reference to motion: być, stawać, wyglądać, mieszkać... In fact, the PWN dictionary itself suggests as synonyms (or perhaps near-synonyms) for those meanings the imperfective verbs prowadzić, kursować and zbliżać się...

2) Concerning the `perfective' meanings of dochodzić and wchodzić being listed separately from the main entry: upon reflection I suspect it was done not so much because the meaning are especially far or unrelated from the main entry but because in sentences like `łąka dochodzi do rzeki' or `cypel wchodzi daleko w morze' one cannot use dojść/wejść, i.e. the aspectual pair is broken for those meanings.

3) Other sources [e.g. wikisłownik dochodzić – Wikisłownik, wolny słownik wielojęzyczny ] list as perfective the following meaning for dochodzić:
`potoczne: uczęszczając gdzieś, dotrwać do końca'
Dochodziła do końca roku na ten kurs, ale bardzo narzekała na prowadzącego.

This meaning is not listed in the PWN dictionary. Do you agree? Can one `dojść do końca roku' ?

Thanks,
L.


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## Karton Realista

Lorenc said:


> dojść do końca roku' ?


No.


Lorenc said:


> list as perfective the following meaning for dochodzić:
> `potoczne: uczęszczając gdzieś, dotrwać do końca'
> Dochodziła do końca roku na ten kurs, ale bardzo narzekała na prowadzącego.


Yes, in that respect you can say that, but this obviously is really colloquial. If you say "dochodzi do końca roku" it suggests future tense, which would have to be complex in other meanings "będzie dochodzić".


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## Lorenc

Ok, I'll mention two more verbs derivative of _chodzić _which the PWN dictionary says have perfective aspect.

1) _naschodzić się_ pefective verb, reflexive, potoczne to arrive _albo _come (in great numbers)
_na miejsce wypadku naschodziło się wielu gapiów _many onlookers arrived at the scene of the accident

The Słownik języka polskiego PWN also agrees:
naschodzić się dokonany _schodząc się zebrać się w gromadę, tłum_
Naschodziło się sąsiadek na plotki.
Naschodziło się dzieci do świetlicy.


How informal this is? All these example use the impersonal/neuter form _naschodziło się_ , is this usage typical? Do you agree the the aspect is perfective? E.g., that one can substitute `naschodziło się' with `zebrało się' (and not with `zbierało się')?

2) verb, potoczne _uchodzić nogi (do kolan)_ to walk one's legs off pot.
_uchodzić się _to walk one's legs off potoczne

Is the expression above used at all? I couldn't find examples of actual use on the internet...

Thanks!
L.


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## jasio

Lorenc said:


> 1) _naschodzić się_ pefective verb, reflexive, potoczne to arrive _albo _come (in great numbers)
> _na miejsce wypadku naschodziło się wielu gapiów _many onlookers arrived at the scene of the accident
> 
> The Słownik języka polskiego PWN also agrees:
> naschodzić się dokonany _schodząc się zebrać się w gromadę, tłum_
> Naschodziło się sąsiadek na plotki.
> Naschodziło się dzieci do świetlicy.
> 
> How informal this is?


Colloquial, indeed.



Lorenc said:


> All these example use the impersonal/neuter form _naschodziło się_ , is this usage typical?


Regarding this particular verb? Yes, impersonal is quite typical, and the examples are ok. Although using personal forms is also possible, I perceive this word as expressing a certain distance or criticism towards the event (otherwise I would probably prefer 'zebrać się', 'zejść się'), which plays well with impersonal forms.



Lorenc said:


> Do you agree the the aspect is perfective? E.g., that one can substitute `naschodziło się' with `zebrało się' (and not with `zbierało się')?


In general, such substitution does not necessarily prove a perfective aspect, but yes. The verb is perfective ('naschodzi się' has a future meaning rather than present: "_znów naschodzi się sąsiadek, będą gadać do późna i nie będę mógł się wyspać_"), and I would substitute it with 'zebrało się' indeed.



Lorenc said:


> 2) verb, potoczne _uchodzić nogi (do kolan)_ to walk one's legs off pot.
> _uchodzić się _to walk one's legs off potoczne
> 
> Is the expression above used at all? I couldn't find examples of actual use on the internet...


I can't recall encountering these phrases (perhaps my aunt a long ago...), either, but I can't exclude that they are used regionally or are just going out of use. Both forms are perfectly understandable though, so if I encountered them spoken by someone, I would have no problems with understanding them whatsoever.
I would rather say "nachodziłem się" myself.


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