# pere/cipolle caramellate



## sicilianboy82

Gentili utenti, mi chiedevo se la traduzione in inglese da me fatta sia corretta,
ringraziandovi anticipatamente,
colgo l'occasione per augurarvi una buona giornata.

Crepes ripiene di *pere caramellate* al miele con gelato allo zafferano e uvetta

Crepes stuffed of candied honey pear with saffron icecream and currant


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## Einstein

*Crepes filled with honey-caramelized pears with saffron ice cream and raisins.*

_Stuffed_ we use for meat and vegetables. Here it doesn't sound right to my ear.
_Candied_ = candito, which is different from caramellato.
_Gelato allo zafferano e uvetta_: does this mean ice cream made with saffron and raisins? Or are the raisins separate from the ice cream? In any case, _currants_ are a particular small black dried grape; _raisins_ is the more usual word.

I'm not sure about _pere caramellate al miele_; if it means that honey has been used as the sugar for caramelizing, then I'd say honey-caramelized pears. Otherwise, caramelized pears with honey.


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## barking fellows

Hi everybody, I'm translating a menu.

I searched but didn't find an appropriate way to say this: both "*candied/candy* onions/*tomatoes*" and "*caramelized* onions/*tomatoes*" sound like the onions/tomatoes were turned into something really sweet - which is not quite true here. Onions and some kind of tomatoes (Pomodoro di Pachino and Datterini for example) are naturally sweet, when cooked, and if you choose to boil them a bit and then chop them, add some salt and E.V.O. oil, and bake them for, say, 45' at 30°C, they get even sweeter - that's why they're called caramellati - but *no sugar is added*. Italians know what it's about even if the word is the same we use for sweeties but, how do I render this to you native English-speakers? Thanks very much everybody


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## Paulfromitaly

barking fellows said:


> I searched but didn't find an appropriate way to say this





Einstein said:


> *caramelized* pears


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## barking fellows

Paul, I'm sorry I can't explain it better, but my question is about salty food like pasta or main courses, not desserts nor fruit. Please let someone take their time and try to help me, thank you.

Also, I had created a separate thread because it's a different topic, if they find an answer - while if they don't, one thread is enough, but I chose to think positive...


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## Paulfromitaly

barking fellows said:


> but *no sugar is added*


Are you sure?


> *Cipolle caramellate:*
> In una casseruola capiente fate sciogliere, a fuoco lento, il burro. Aggiungete le cipolle e soffriggete per 5 minuti. Salate, mescolate e chiudete con il coperchio. Dopo 10 minuti *aggiungete lo zucchero* e continuate la cottura per ulteriori 20 minuti





> *Ingredienti per 650 g di cipolle caramellate*
> Cipolle rosse di Tropea 1 kg
> *Zucchero* 70 g
> *Zucchero* di canna 150 g
> Acqua 250 g



How To Caramelize Onions | Kitchn
Caramelized Onions Recipe | Bon Appetit
How to Caramelize Onions, Caramelized Onions Recipe 
How To Caramelize Onions
Basic Caramelized Onions Recipe


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## barking fellows

Ok, I'm not sure about onions then, but I'm sure about tomatoes, there's a clip by Oldani but I can't copypaste the link here, can I?


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## Paulfromitaly

barking fellows said:


> but I'm sure about tomatoes


Sure?



> *Pomodori caramellati al sale rosa | Sale&Pepe*
> 
> 1 CUCCHIAIO  *ZUCCHERO* SEMOLATO
> 6 CUCCHIAIO  OLIO DI OLIVA EXTRAVERGINE
> 1 CUCCHIAINO  SALE
> POMODORO RAMATO


http://www.gustoblog.it/post/7297/ricetta-facile-dei-pomodori-caramellati


> Ricetta facile dei pomodori caramellati
> Per quattro/sei persone occorrono una decina di pomodori ben maturi, 1 cucchiaio di* zucchero *semolato, olio extravergine di oliva.





> Ricetta Tatin di pomodori caramellati | Donna Moderna
> 
> Ingredienti
> 
> 2 spicchio  aglio q.b. pepe nero  12 pomodoro  q.b. prezzemolo  q.b. sale 1 * cucchiaio zucchero *1 fette pane briosciato 2 cucchiai olio extravergine d'oliva 1 pasta per pizza 200 gr stracciatella


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## barking fellows

Paul, are you sure you're trying to help me? It looks like you're trying to win a cuisine competition and this is not the place, as you know. Recipes may obviously vary and I do know what I'm talking about. Please tell me if you want me to post the link to Oldani's video-recipe or not. By the way pomodori caramellati was translated with candied tomatoes in the video but, that don't matter because

I'm looking for natives' points of view about this: do these words give them the impression there may be no sugar added - as there's none? What other word may I use?

It quite looks like you enjoy making the thread long and boring so that other people get confused, come on!, stay helpful - please!!


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## Paulfromitaly

barking fellows said:


> Paul, are you sure you're trying to help me?


You keep saying that the recipes for cipolle or pomodori caramellati don't include sugar and that seems to be your basis to assert that "caramelized" is not the correct term.
You are wrong: I've just showed you that:
1 - The recipes include sugar.
2 - There are millions of hits for "caramelized onions".

You cannot post link to videos.


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## barking fellows

The ONION recipes in your list of links do not require sugar actually, but that does not matter, as I said.

What matters is: 1) onions are usually called caramelized on the internet, even when sugar is not added, 2) tomatoes are called candied in Oldani's video-recipe and it's crystal clear there's no sugar added, 3) there's no sugar added in the recipes of the menu I'm translating,

4) *I would like to hear some native's opinion about what "candied/caramelized tomatoes/onions" on a menu would bring to their minds: something containing sugar or not, and in the former case, I'd like to know if they have any better ideas.*

I'm sure people like LondonCalling would understand in any case, because she's been living in Italy for sooo long and mother to a chef, but the point in translating a menu is *helping tourists understand what exactly *they're going to pay (22euros say..) for - you know...


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## Ciprianus

Candied/caramelized without sugar is an oxymoron.

BTW, Merriam, Webster, Collins and other natives insist that candied/caramelized always means cooked in or with sugar.


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## barking fellows

Ciprianus said:


> Candied/caramelized without sugar is an oxymoron.



Thank you. *This means that, to your ears, these words wouldn't be clear* if I used them to describe something that does not contain sugar. *Here's why I'm hoping for native English-speakers to find an alternative way.*

(The onions and tomatoes I'm dealing with are caramellati without sugar, as I said, and Paul's links show many caramelized onions recipes do not require sugar
How To Caramelize Onions | Kitchn
Caramelized Onions Recipe | Bon Appetit
How to Caramelize Onions, Caramelized Onions Recipe 
How To Caramelize Onions
Basic Caramelized Onions Recipe)



Ciprianus said:


> Merriam, Webster, Collins and other natives insist that candied/caramelized always means cooked in or with sugar.


Yes - Collins also states that Asado means roast meat, but when you cook Asado in a restaurant in Italy you won't write arrosto on the menu, you'll write Asado so that people can understand which part of meat it exactly is and which way it was cut and cooked (since it's something Argentinian. Traditionally, in Italy we would cut that very part of meat the other way round and make broth from it OR we would roast OTHER parts of meat, not that one). If dictionaries provided all the nuances in cuisine meanings that helpful native *people *can help you understand, WRF wouldn't exist


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## Ciprianus

> (The onions and tomatoes I'm dealing with are caramellati without sugar, as I said, and Paul's links show many caramelized onions recipes provide no sugar



L'eccezione conferma la regola.


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## metazoan

_Caramelizing_ means cooking sugar, but extra sugar need not be added. The sugar can be that present in the raw onion or tomato. _Candying_ instead means that sugar or syrup was added.  

"Caramelized onions/tomatoes" will be clear, already a standard in many modern recipes.


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## UnaVidaReal

metazoan said:


> _Caramelizing_ means cooking sugar, but extra sugar need not be added. The sugar can be that present in the raw onion or tomato. _Candying_ instead means that sugar or syrup was added.
> 
> "Caramelized onions/tomatoes" will be clear, already a standard in many modern recipes.


Agreed. "Candied" is definitely the wrong translation because that will immediately give the impression that sugar has been added.

Caramelizing does not require added sugar. *However*, if I wanted to ensure that native English speakers would fully understand that something has been caramelized without the addition of some kind of sweetener, I would say "caramelized without added sugar." I think that many English speakers from the USA would assume that "caramelized" implies added sweetener, especially since the word "caramel" is closely associated with candy.


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## rrose17

In my opinion caramelized onions are simply onions that have been slowly cooked in oil till they turn deep brown, no sugar needed. I would have thought this was fairly common. Caramelized nuts, on the other hand, have some sort of sugar/syrup/honey added since roasting them doesn't release the sugar in them as it does in onions. Candied, to me, is something altogether different.


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## barking fellows

Thank you metazoan, thank you UnaVidaReal, thank you rrose17 ! 

Now rrose, you're holding the balance of power  Do you think _caramelized tomatoes_ is as clear as _caramelized onions_ (like metazoan says) or would you - if you were in my shoes - rather write _caramelized without added sugar _(as suggested by UnaVidaReal) ?


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## rrose17

I have never seen the qualifying "without added sugar" referring to something caramelized, on any menu, but then I'm not American, and, full disclosure, most menus I see are usually in French. But I'd say caramelized tomatoes would be as clear as caramelized onions. Does that tip the scales?


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## barking fellows

It does, dearr  My deadline was yesterday evening and, last but not least, I've read from you so many times and know you're reliable


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## london calling

I have to admit that when I make caramelised onions I  add sugar to them. I have never caramelised tomatoes  but  surely if a tomato is already sweet you will not necessarily have to add any sugar as the natural sugars in the tomato will caramelise.


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## metazoan

barking fellows said:


> Onions and some kind of tomatoes ... when cooked, ...get even sweeter - ... but *no sugar is added*.



Here's the top quote from googling "chemistry caramelizing onions".

"This reaction of breaking down larger sugars into single sugar molecules is what causes sautéed or caramelized onions to brown and develop a sweeter flavor. Heat causes the sugar molecules that make up polysaccharides to separate into monosaccharides in a process called pyrolysis."

Interesting. The cooking product monosaccharides are sweet but not the raw precursor polysaccharides.


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## WordsWordWords

metazoan said:


> Here's the top quote from googling "chemistry caramelizing onions".
> 
> "This reaction of breaking down larger sugars into single sugar molecules is what causes sautéed or caramelized onions to brown and develop a sweeter flavor. Heat causes the sugar molecules that make up polysaccharides to separate into monosaccharides in a process called pyrolysis."
> 
> Interesting. The cooking product monosaccharides are sweet but not the raw precursor polysaccharides.


I think this can be taken as an excellent  reasoning behind the term.
*@*Barking - I have translated many, many gastronomic texts into English and I have never hesitated to use _caramelized_ for any food -- sweet OR savory (*NB*, _not "salty"_ as you said in post #5) -- that has the attributes described in this thread by our co-foreros (recipes aside!). _Honey-glazed_ could be an option in your case because it helps evoke a visual description, to put the focus more on the end result rather than on the cooking procedure, especially as it is a menu item.

Crepes filled with honey-glazed pears with saffron-raisin ice cream.


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## johngiovanni

Just to add that the Merriam-Webster dictionary _does_ give a definition which does not include "with sugar":
"to cook (something, such as a fruit or vegetable) slowly until it becomes brown and sweet".

The Oxford English Dictionary (Second edition, just a few years old with 350,000 entries), sadly, does not.  It says "to cook (food) with sugar so that...".  I have messaged the editors.

My wife caramelis(z)es onions without adding sugar, but tells me that some people do add sugar.
Roasted vegetables are also said to "caramelis(z)e" even when the recipe does not include the adding of sugar.


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## Fooler

La tecnica della caramelizzazione è, credo, anche chiamata _confit_. In questa ricetta viene utilizzata la parola _caramelized_ benchè non ci sia alcuna aggiunta di zucchero.

Un'alternativa (per la procedura intendo) magari può essere _confit tomatoes/onions_


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## johngiovanni

I don't think caramelis(z)ing means the same as "confit".  The linked recipe in post 25 does refer to the caramelizing of tomatoes in one of its steps (Step 3), but the "confit" is about the keeping, preservation of the cooked tomatoes.
When we carameliz(s)e onions, we don't make a "confit".  We eat them straightaway.


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## Fooler

I got as preservation, of course, but the procedure/cooking method of caramelisation is almost the same


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## ain'ttranslationfun?

Sconsolato, but I'd like to know: would "glazed" have a place here if there's no sugar in the recipe?


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## johngiovanni

Let's go back to the _translation_ question.
"Caramellati/e" in "cipolle caramellate" or "pomodori caramellati" translates as "caramelis(z)ed".
We can argue if we like about whether it requires adding sugar or not.  (I maintain that it doesn't, and some others in this thread agree).
But, in the end, "caramelis(z)ed" is the translation.

If caramelized onions / tomatoes turn out "glazed" (glassate/i) , or if they can be used in a "confit", it makes no difference to the translation.  "Caramellati" does not translate as "glazed" or "confit" in English.


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## london calling

Fooler said:


> La tecnica della caramelizzazione è, credo, anche chiamata _confit_. In questa ricetta viene utilizzata la parola _caramelized_ benchè non ci sia alcuna aggiunta di zucchero.
> 
> Un'alternativa (per la procedura intendo) magari può essere _confit tomatoes/onions_


Concordo con JG. Non  è la stessa cosa: capirei due cose totalmente diverse. 


ain'ttranslationfun? said:


> Sconsolato, but I'd like to know: would "glazed" have a place here if there's no sugar in the recipe?


 There are different ways of glazing onions. None of the recipes I am familiar with uses sugar. In any case  caramelised onions are not the same as glazed onions.


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## WordsWordWords

*(Sorry folks I botched in post #23 who I was replying to and accidentally referred back to the original OP#1....  *

*@london calling >>There are different ways of glazing onions. None of the recipes I am familiar with uses sugar. In any case caramelised onions are not the same as glazed onions. I agree.*


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