# She also saw him there



## Alxmrphi

My CD told me there was a rule for "anche"... that it always preceeds what it is refering to, this didn't make any sense for me and "anche" has been tormenting me in where it should be placed, ever since I started learning Italian, can someone explain this rule to me and give me a few examples, thank you!

Here is something I will try..

"She also saw him there".. is this right.. "Lei ci anche l'ha visto" ?


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## Giannaclaudia

Alex_Murphy said:
			
		

> "She also saw him there".. is this right.. "Anche lei lo ha visto là" ?


 
Alex, I am sure that other friends will give you a complete explanation of this rule. Otherwise, I'll try to look up in a grammar reference.


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## Alxmrphi

This was part of an example where "ci" was used to mean "there"..
I'm pretty sure when ("lo" + "ha") are together it becomes ("l'ha")..
Still, anybody, heeelllpp!


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## Giannaclaudia

Alex_Murphy said:
			
		

> This was part of an example where "ci" was used to mean "there"..
> I'm pretty sure when ("lo" + "ha") are together it becomes ("l'ha")..
> Still, anybody, heeelllpp!


 
Sorry, Alex you are right.  Lo ha = l'ha


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## fran06

Alex_Murphy said:
			
		

> *My CD told me there was a rule for "anche"... that it always preceeds what it is refering to,* this didn't make any sense for me and "anche" has been tormenting me in where it should be placed, ever since I started learning Italian, can someone explain this rule to me and give me a few examples, thank you!
> 
> Here is something I will try..
> 
> "She also saw him there".. is this right.. "Lei ci anche l'ha visto" ?


 
Your CD is right Alex.

_Anche lei lo ha visto lì_
Anche (also) is referred to Lei (she) and as you can see it preceeds what it is refering to.

Is Mary coming out tonight?
Yes,_She_ is coming _as well_ : Si viene _anche lei_.

or

La mia macchina è rossa
_Anche la_ mia (_macchina_)

Vieni a mare domani?
Vengo _anche IO_!

or

Vai a lavoro _anche domani_?
Si vado _anche domani_.

In this last example it referres to tomorrow and that's why anche preceeds domani

I hope it helps!


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## moodywop

Well, Alex, after all in English you can place "too" after the word it refers to. It's the same with "anche" except that it comes before the word.

(I'll use "bold" to indicate stress)

_Anche a *me* piace il calcio_
_*I*, too, like football_

_Mi piace anche il tennis_
_I like *tennis*, too (in addition to football)_

(in the first example you can't replace "a me" with "mi" because of the emphasis)

- _Hai un cane?_
_- Sì, ma ho anche un gatto_

EDIT: Scusa, fran. Ho visto solo ora la tua risposta. Comunque Alex adora gli esempi, perciò gli farà piacere averne altri


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## Alxmrphi

I feel like an idiot, this isn't making any sense..

 Is Mary coming out tonight?
 Yes,_She_ is coming _as well_ : Si viene _anche lei_.

It's the stupid italian "She is coming also her!" that confuses me.. and..

_Anche a *me* piace il calcio_
_*I*, too, like football

_Piace hates me anyway, but "Also to me it is pleasing the football", I hate this sometimes.
Can someone give me a few set ways to figure it out?
*
Like with finding the subject of a verb, you ask "Who is?" or "What is"
The boys run out when school has finished.. "Who runs out when school is finished", answer = the boys.. that tip helped me a lot when I first started, can someone give me something like this? and then maybe 3/4 examples for me to try and translate and put it in the right place?
*


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## lsp

Alex_Murphy said:
			
		

> I feel like an idiot, ...It's the stupid *I*talian


Alex, please be more considerate.  Everyone who visits WR is not familiar with you or your personal style. It's one thing to call yourself an idiot, but even in jest I really think it's inappropriate to speak that way about the Italian language (which, for the millionth time, is capitalized in English).


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## GoodNight

Haha Isp, I liked your correction =)

Alright, I'll try to be quick. Say whatever you want about the fact you don't like Italian structure, I don't care that much, but who ever said that studying another language was supposed to be easy?

"Anche a me piace il calcio" = "I, too, like football"

Because "anche" is referred to who likes football (me)

Otherwise, if "anche" was referred to "calcio", the correct translation would have been
"I like football too" or "I like football as well"


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## Moogey

But wait, we haven't discussed anche at the end of a sentence!

My Italian teacher (again, from Italy!) said that Italians don't like to have anche as the last word of a sentence. They'll usually add, he said, the subject pronoun after anche.

For example:

- Voglio andare in Italia!
- Voglio andarci *anche io! (or anch'io)

*-M


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## GoodNight

That's true, we don't like, it doesn't sound good. If referred to a person, you have to put "anche" before it. For example:

He's been promoted as well.
Anche lui è stato promosso.

In my opinion he's right too.
Anche secondo me ha ragione.


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## moodywop

Moogey said:
			
		

> - Voglio andare in Italia!
> - Voglio andarci *anche io! (or anch'io)*


 
That's a very good example, Moogey. Placing the subject at the end of the sentence conveys greater emphasis. _Anch'io voglio andarci_ would sound flat in comparison.

In a sentence like _Aspettatemi! Vengo anch'io!,_ for example_,_ the subject can only take end position.

It seems you have met your Italian match in GoodNight. Giovanissimi e bravissimi


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## GoodNight

Haha =) I try to be helpful despite of my ignorance ^^


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## Moogey

GoodNight said:
			
		

> That's true, we don't like it, it doesn't sound good. If referred to a person, you have to put "anche" before it. For example:
> 
> He's been promoted as well.
> Anche lui è stato promosso.
> 
> In my opinion he's right too.
> Anche secondo me ha ragione.



Just a small correction...

Thanks Carlo for the reinforcement 

-M


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## GoodNight

Oops... I forgot about that >_<
Thanks anyway


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## GoodNight

-- In addition to one of my previous posts --

In my opinion he's right too.
Anche secondo me ha ragione / Secondo me ha ragione anche lui

Just to make it clear... and sorry for the double post =/


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## lsp

GoodNight said:
			
		

> -- In addition to one of my previous posts --
> 
> In my opinion he's right too.
> Anche secondo me ha ragione / Secondo me ha ragione anche lui
> 
> Just to make it clear... and sorry for the double post =/


They sound like they can be used to mean two different things.
Anche secondo me ha ragione ... I agree with others who think that he's right.
Secondo me ha ragione anche lui ... I agree that he, like others, is right.


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## Auno

Alex,

While you are being burnt at the stake there, this may ease your suffering a bit further, hopefully.  The examples below are from _Using Italian_ - John Kinder & Vincenzo Savini, Cambridge University Press, 2004:

As indicated, 'anche' immediately precedes the item it is referring to.  Contrast the following changes in meaning resulting from position changes:

*Anche Eugenio scrive poesie in italiano* - (as well as some other person)
*Eugenio anche scrive poesie in italiano* - (as well as reading them)
*Eugenio scrive anche poesie in italiano* - (as well as novels)
*Eugenio scrive poesie anche in italiano* - (as well as English poems)

Also, you do not use 'anche' at the beginning of sentence (as I just did) to mean 'also', to denote 'besides', 'in additíon', 'furthermore' etc.  In those cases use: 'inoltre'.

Hmm... have just figured out what was causing me difficulty with some posts yesterday - had forgotten about the international keyboard.

Anyway good luck with it.


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## moodywop

Auno said:
			
		

> *Eugenio anche scrive poesie in italiano* - (as well as reading them)


 
I have problems with this particular example. It sounds unnatural to me. I would rephrase it as _Oltre a leggere poesie, Eugenio ne scrive anche._
I also think that "anche" may very well be used at the end of a sentence. It can also be used on its own in a reply, unlike "too" and "as well":

come risposta affermativa in costruzioni ellittiche: _«Tu giochi?» «Sì» «E il tuo amico?» «A.»_ (De Mauro)



Another problem for foreign learners is that in some contexts _anche _does not mean _also _but _persino:_

2 cong., persino, addirittura, per rafforzare un’affermazione, una possibilità: _potrei a. smettere_ (De Mauro)


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## GoodNight

That's right, it can be used at the end of a sentence, but not as often as in other cases. But honestly, I don't think it's limited to Southern Italy. Everyone uses it.


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## Alxmrphi

Hmm, people thought I was being serious when I called Italian stupid, personally I think that *that* is stupid . I always (well, nearly) capitalize the names of countries, if I don't I apologise, but I always notice myself doing it..
Italian is stupid! So is English, so is every language! I am speaking for the millions of people like me who get frustrated when they can't understand something, not everyone has a way with words y'know! LSP , lol.



> *Anche Eugenio scrive poesie in italiano* - (as well as some other person)
> *Eugenio anche scrive poesie in italiano* - (as well as reading them)
> *Eugenio scrive anche poesie in italiano* - (as well as novels)
> *Eugenio scrive poesie anche in italiano* - (as well as English poems)



This is the first light that has turned on in the big corridor of questions about "anche", now I have some sense made out of it.

I guess it's the same thing as piacere, try to pick it up and after noticing its irregularities they become the "norm" and acceptance is before understanding, which makes a lot about learning a new language, easier.


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## Alxmrphi

I've just been watching RAI news and I saw..

"ANCHE LAZIO DICE "NO"".

I think it's about a referendum Italy is having, I'm not sure, but it made sense, because Lazio is what is being refered to because ASWEL as others, LAZIO says "no".. so it goes before the thing it's refering to..

Is this right..

If it said.. "LAZIO DICE ANCHE "NO"".. it would mean that Lazio says "no", aswel as saying "yes" and "maybe".. that sort of thing?


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## Giannaclaudia

Anche is a conjunction, so in this case you can't put it after the verb.

"Le regioni xyz hanno detto "no", anche il Lazio ha detto "no".


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## Giannaclaudia

Auno said:
			
		

> *Anche Eugenio scrive poesie in italiano* - (as well as some other person)
> *Eugenio anche scrive poesie in italiano* - (as well as reading them)
> *Eugenio scrive anche poesie in italiano* - (as well as novels)
> *Eugenio scrive poesie anche in italiano* - (as well as English poems)


 
The second one sounds odd.


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## Elisa68

*



Eugenio anche scrive poesie in italiano - (as well as reading them)

Click to expand...

*I agree with Carlo and Giannaclaudia.


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## Alxmrphi

So where do I put anche if I want to say that Lazio said "no" aswel as "yes" and "maybe".. and what do you mean it is a conjugation? from what verb?


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## Giannaclaudia

Conjunction not conjugation. Read carefully, Alex.

"Il Lazio dice sia sì che no ed, anche, forse" if you want to say 





> Lazio said "no" aswel as "yes" and "maybe"..


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## moodywop

> *Eugenio anche scrive poesie in italiano - (as well as reading them)
> *


 


			
				Giannaclaudia said:
			
		

> The second one sounds odd.


 


			
				Elisa68 said:
			
		

> I agree with Carlo and Giannaclaudia.


 


			
				moodywop said:
			
		

> I have problems with this particular example. It sounds unnatural to me


 
Poiché nord, centro e sud (attendiamo conferma dalle isole ) sono d'accordo, cancello il mio "warning"


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## effeundici

So in the end, if I want to say:

_Anch'io potrei fare questa cosa_

and I want to be unequivocable in making understand that I don't mean:

_Io potrei fare anche questa cosa _

what could I say in English??

Consider that I actually needed that and I, desperate, decided to write:

*me too could do that thing*

Not correct but I felt sure I would be understood.


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## tomzenith

effeundici said:


> me I* too could do that *thing



It's difficult to make it unequivocal in English. I think a lot of it depends on the emphasis:

*I* could do that too. (as opposed to 'I could do *that *aswell/too')

Or, in writing, more formally:

I, too, could do that.


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## effeundici

tomzenith said:


> It's difficult to make it unequivocal in English. I think a lot of it depends on the emphasis:
> 
> *I* could do that too. (as opposed to 'I could do *that *aswell/too')
> 
> Or, in writing, more formally:
> 
> I, too, could do that.


 
Thanks Tom,

_*I, too, could do that*_

should be unequivocal, right?


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## tomzenith

It would sound quite formal in spoken language, but it shouldn't leave any room for doubt.


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## effeundici

tomzenith said:


> It would sound quite formal in spoken language, but it shouldn't leave any room for doubt.


 
Ok, I definitely prefer to sound formal than being misunderstood.

I'm still wondering how come that such a rational language as English can be so uncertain and vague in this important situation.


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## Stevo_Evo_22

What about:  "Even I could do this" or "I could even do this", with the emphasis on "I".


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## effeundici

Stevo_Evo_22 said:


> What about: "Even I could do this" or "I could even do this", with the emphasis on "I".


 
Uhm, I'm not a mothertongue so I could be wrong but it seems to me that that option doesn't work at all.

It should have a different meaning, right? It should be something like :

_Even I can sing better than him.....and you know I'm completely out of tune_
_Persino io riesco a cantare meglio di lui...e sai che sono completamente stonato_

Bye


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## Stevo_Evo_22

effeundici said:


> Uhm, I'm not a mothertongue so I could be wrong but it seems to me that that option doesn't work at all.
> 
> It should have a different meaning, right? It should be something like :
> 
> _Even I can sing better than him.....and you know I'm completely out of tune_
> _Persino io riesco a cantare meglio di lui...e sai che sono completamente stonato_
> 
> Bye


 
Yes you are correct, but it carries both meanings.  In context, it can definitely be used in this way.


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## tomzenith

effeundici said:


> I'm still wondering how come that such a rational language as English can be so uncertain and vague in this important situation.



Rational language?  I've been thinking about it since you asked this, and I'm really not sure that there is a way of doing this apart from the one I have given you. The only other thing I could suggest would be to add another phrase, which would make it clearer (but still not completely unambiguous):

He did xxx, I could do that too.

Can anybody else think of anything?



effeundici said:


> _Even I can sing better than him.....and you know I'm completely out of tune_
> _Persino io riesco a cantare meglio di lui...e sai che sono completamente stonato_



 Exactly.


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## Stevo_Evo_22

I have thought about it, and yet I am still bewildered as to why you would not use "even" in this way...I know I would:

"I can play the piano."
"I can too."
"So can I."
"Even I can play the piano."

Your thoughts?


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## tomzenith

It means roughly the same thing, but there is a significant difference. The implication of 'even I can play the piano' is that it is in someway surprising that you can, that you are the last person anybody would expect to play the piano (and by implication, that it is easier than you'd think, that *anybody* could).

If I told somebody that I could play the piano, and they responded by saying 'even I can play the piano', I would feel a little disappointed by their reaction - it takes something away from my statement. Whereas if they replied 'I can play the piano too', it would just mean that we both had that ability. If you use 'even', I think you run the risk of insulting the person who originally performed the action.


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## effeundici

Stevo_Evo_22 said:


> I have thought about it, and yet I am still bewildered as to why you would not use "even" in this way...I know I would:
> 
> "I can play the piano."
> "I can too."
> "So can I."
> "Even I can play the piano."
> 
> Your thoughts?


 
I agree with Tomzenith, perhaps because my italian mindset forces me to translate _persino _to _even _and _anche _to _too_


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## Stevo_Evo_22

Yes exactly I also thought that, but then realised that if it was taken the right way, it could work.


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