# All Slavic languages: Путь/put/pot, etc.



## swintok

I've always found it odd that the word путь (way, road) is feminine in Ukrainian but masculine in Russian.  Does anyone know the reason for this?  Does this word exist in other Slavic languages and, if so, what gender is it?


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## Azori

In Slovak *púť* is feminine and means "journey", "voyage", "pilgrimage". It's not much used in spoken language.


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## Brainiac

Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian: *put/пут, masculine* = way, road, trip...
*putanja/путања*,* feminime* = trajectory, transit, line (of motion), orbit..
There's in Serbian word *пут, feminine*, but it means the color of skin, compexion. _Bele puti - white skinned, tamne puti - dark comlexion_


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## marco_2

This is a very old Indo-European word, akin to English _path, _Latin _pons - pontis /a bridge/, _German _Pfad _etc. In old Polish it existed as *pąć *(and according to Bruckner it was masculine first and later it became feminine) and first it meant _a way _and later a _pilgrimage, _hence *pątnik *(though nowadays we use a word *pielgrzym = *_a __pilgrim_).


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## Anicetus

Slovene *pot*, also meaning way/path, is feminine if I'm not mistaken.

My assumption is that **pǫtь* was originally one of the few masculine i-nouns. However, while the masculine i-declension has disappeared from all modern Slavic languages, the feminine one has been retained by all the declining ones. Once the masculine i-declension had been lost, the noun either kept its gender, but changed declension (like in BCMS), retained its declension, but changed the gender (like in Ukrainian, Slovak and Slovene) or remained an exception (like in Russian).

A trace of the final _-ь_ (the "soft" semi-vowel which originated from short _i_, found at the end of a word whenever the preceding consonant is a palatal and for all i-stem nouns) in BCMS is the possibility of _-em_ as the instrumental singular ending and the _-ev-_ plural infix, which are normally reserved for masculine nouns ending on a palatal.

BCMS _put_ in the meaning of skin complexion is distinguished from the other noun by its short vowel. It comes from Proto-Slavic _*plъtь_ and the similarity is a plain coincidence.




marco_2 said:


> This is a very old Indo-European word, akin to English _path, _Latin _pons - pontis /a bridge/, _German _Pfad _etc.



I think an interesting cognate is Ancient Greek _póntos_ - sea.


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## Brainiac

marco_2 said:


> .. it meant _a way _and later a _pilgrimage, _hence *pątnik *(though nowadays we use a word *pielgrzym = *_a __pilgrim_).


I don't know if this is again a plain coincidence, but *patnik *in Serbian means sufferer, martyr.
Pilgrim is *hodočasnik* (hoda + čas(t)nik = hodati to walk, to perambulate + časnik chaste, pure, honorable person) or *poklonik* votarist, *hadžija *(Christian or Muslim pilgrim), or, like the last alternative - *putnik* traveler, wayfarer...


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## Anicetus

Brainiac said:


> I don't know if this is again a plain coincidence, but *patnik *in Serbian means sufferer, martyr.



I'd say it is. Polish _ą_ is a nasal vowel, like French _b*on*_. The old back nasal vowel (usually written as _ǫ_) changed to _u_ in our language, while the old front nasal vowel (_ę_) gave _e_. Polish has kept the nasal vowels, but redistributed them.

_Patnik_ is derived from _patiti_, a verb with an unclear etymology. Its cognate isn't found in other Slavic languages, and the similarity with the Latin _pati_ is obvious...


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## Kartof

In Bulgarian, the word is *път* (path, way, time (as in three times) ) and it is masculine.  The word's definite forms are *пътят/пътя*, evidence of the fact that the final consonant *т* is palatal (like it was mentioned before) or else the endings would've been *-ът/-а* instead.


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## Selyd

in Ukrainian
feminine - путь, дорога
but masculine - шлях


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## marco_2

Selyd said:


> in Ukrainian
> feminine - путь, дорога
> but masculine - шлях



In Polish we use the word *szlak *(a Germanism), which means _a route: _szlak turystyczny (a tourist route), szlak bursztynowy (The Amber Road), szlak jedwabny (The Silk Road / Route). The diminutive *szlaczek *means _a border as an edge having a decorative purpose._


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## A.O.T.

swintok said:


> I've always found it odd that the word путь (way, road) is feminine in Ukrainian but masculine in Russian.


There's no such a Ukrainian word as* путь*! It's a pure Russian word!


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## A.O.T.

Selyd said:


> in Ukrainian
> feminine - *путь, дорога*


These are *Russian* words rather than Ukrainian ones. Please do not mislead others!


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## marco_2

A.O.T. said:


> These are *Russian* words rather than Ukrainian ones. Please do not mislead others!



Hm, I'm not a native-speaker of Ukrainian, just asking: do you really consider the words *путь *and *дорога *to be Russian loanwords? What about *доріжка *then? How should you say *остання путь *in correct Ukrainian? Or *путівець*? As I said, I'm just asking as a Slavist.


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## A.O.T.

marco_2 said:


> Hm, I'm not a native-speaker of Ukrainian, just asking: do you really consider the words *путь *and *дорога *to be Russian loanwords? What about *доріжка *then? How should you say *остання путь *in correct Ukrainian? Or *путівець*? As I said, I'm just asking as a Slavist.


I'm a native speaker of Ukrainian so I would say* стежка *rather than *доріжка*.

Yeah, *остання путь *can be used only during somebody's funeral only and it means *the last road* for a person that has just died. This last road will lead to the grave.

I have never heard such a word as *путівець *
in Ukrainian.

Being a slavist maybe you'd be able to tell me what's the Ukrainian word for *a rail*? In Russian it's *путь *(masculine)but in Ukrainian we've got a quite different word for that as you may know.

Anyway *дорога* and *путь* have a common Russian origin.


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## Selyd

A.O.T. said:


> These are *Russian* words rather than Ukrainian ones. Please do not mislead others!


Let to give from the fundamental dictionaries.
The words _путь, путівець,дорога, шлях, доріжка, доріженька, доріжечка_ are used everywhere.
*Російсько-український академічний словник 1924–33рр. (А. Кримський, С. Єфремов)*
_Путь_ – 1) (в конкр. и перен.знач.) путь (-ті, ж. р.), доро́га, шлях (-ху) (ум. шляшо́к), (стезя) сте́жка,тропа́, тропо́к (-пка́); см. Доро́га. [Перед вікно́м широ́ка би́та путь (Л.Укр.). Так ви́вся-ж той шляшо́к куди́сь да́лі за те мі́сто… І поверзло́сь мені́,що отсе́ і є він, шлях мій (М. Вовч.). etc…
_Доро́га_ –1) (в букв. смысле ипереносно – как поведение) доро́га (ум. дорі́жка, дорі́женька, дорі́жечка),шлях (ум. шляшо́к, р. -шку́), путь (ж. р. пути́), тропа́ (ум. тро́пка). [Зба́тька була́ люди́на че́сна, а син пішо́в и́ншою доро́гою. По-під те́мнимга́єм іду́ть шляхо́м чумаче́ньки (Шевч.). Шляшо́к би́тий звива́вся до мі́ста(М. Вовч.). Перед вікно́м широ́ка би́та путь. Моско́вський по́їзд стої́ть натре́тій путі́]. Доро́га большая, торная, торговая – би́тий шлях, вели́кий шлях,гости́нець (р. -нця). Д. проезжая – проїзни́й шлях, проїзна́ доро́га. Д.столбовая, почтовая – верстови́й (стовпови́й) шлях. Д. железная – залізни́ця,залі́зна ко́лія. Д. просёлочная – путіве́ць (р. -вця́) (Г. Барв.). Д.перекрестная – перехре́сний шлях, середохре́сна доро́га, (гал.) крижова́доро́га. Д. окольная – маніве́ць. [Хто манівця́ми просту́є, той удо́ма неночу́є (Присл.).]. Д. на гору из оврага, от берега – узві́з (р. узво́зу). [Бо́ричівузві́з]. Д. для прогона скота – прогі́н (р. -го́ну).  Etc…
*Російсько-український словник1930р. (О. Ізюмов)
*_Путь_ – 1) (дорога) путь, -ті́ (жен. р.), доро́га, -ги, шлях,-ху; 
2) (способ) спо́сіб, -собу; 
3) (прок, успех, толк) пуття́,-ття́.   etc…


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## A.O.T.

Selyd said:


> Let to give from the fundamental dictionaries.


They are the fundamental ones for you only.
*А. Кримський, С. Єфремов, **О. Ізюмов - *це суто "українські" призвіща, тому  й такі "українські" слова вони мають у своїх словниках, відомих у вузьких колах "фахівців" з української мови. Було та є одне суто українське слово* - ШЛЯХ, *яке перекладається на російську, як* ПУТЬ.
*Я розумію, що саме, Вам* Selyd, *ближче до душі та серця слова російського походження та ті словники, що росіяни писали для українців за Радянського Союзу, не знаючи української мови.


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## Selyd

For information: Krymski Agatangel - foreign languages: Polish, French, English, German, Greek, Italian, Turkish, Arabic, Persian, Latin. He knew everything sixty languages.
Words путь, путівець,дорога, шлях, доріжка, доріженька, доріжечка are used everywhere. For whom this language native.


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## A.O.T.

Selyd said:


> For information: Krymski Agatangel - foreign languages: Polish, French, English, German, Greek, Italian, Turkish, Arabic, Persian, Latin. He knew everything sixty languages.
> Words путь, путівець,дорога, шлях, доріжка, доріженька, доріжечка are used everywhere. For whom this language native.



[...]
By the way his name was *Agafangel. *


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## nonik

Words such as "putj, путь, put', pout' and their derivatives are common slavic.

Words " стежка, stezka, staza, stazka are always common slavic words.

Words " дорога, dráha, droga are always common slavic words, this one particularly for west and east slavs languages ( I am not sure if some south slavic languages contains this word or its derivatives)


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## Brainiac

I guess your *дорога, dráha, droga* is our *drum*, in BCS. 
*Droga *is *drug* (came from English). When you combine _put_ and _droga_ (in BCS), you get _put droge = drug smuggling/trafficking rou_t, _(Smuggling-routes for illegal drugs_)


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## Anicetus

Brainiac said:


> I guess your *дорога, dráha, droga* is our *drum*, in BCS.



I hate to be your naysayer again, but I don't think so.

Our version of that word should be *draga*, which is a small bay. This is an example of liquid metathesis in South and West Slavic languages and pleophony in the Eastern ones, if anybody is interested... 

_Drum_ isn't a common Slavic word, it's derived from Greek _drómos_. By the way, it's not really used in Croatia, where _cesta_ is roughly equivalent to English _road_.


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## nonik

where _cesta_ is roughly equivalent to English _road_.[/QUOTE]

same as in czech, slovak, sloven.


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## Brainiac

Thank you Anicetus, corrections are welcome 
(P.S. I'm interested, but it would be for a new thread, I guess...)


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## TriglavNationalPark

In Slovenian, *pot* is _feminine_.

However, in the phrase *križev pot* (Way of the Cross), it functions as a _masculine_ noun. (It's not *križeva pot*, in other words).


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## Morana_

It's actually both masculine (although archaic and very rarely used in modern Slovenian) and feminine (commonly used nowadays) - and it can even be neuter in dual  and plural nominative. 
http://bos.zrc-sazu.si/cgi/a03.exe?name=sskj_testa&expression=pot&hs=1


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## sophophobic

A.O.T. said:


> ті словники, що росіяни писали для українців за Радянського Союзу, не знаючи української мови.



Hello, AOT! Please, advise some authoritative dictionary written by people with Ukrainian surnames. Оскільки ВТССУМ також пропонує і _путь_, і _дорогу_ (для першого зазначаючи, що воно є застарілим). Чи можна довіряти людині з прізвищем Бусел?


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## Sobakus

A.O.T. said:


> These are *Russian* words rather than Ukrainian ones. Please do not mislead others!


 I'm sorry but you will have to prove that somewhere between Old East Slavic (Древнерусский=Древнеукраинский) and  Modern Ukrainian these words miraculously disappeared from the Ukrainian language (which will be a hard task considering there was no standard Ukrainian back then) and then were reintroduced by the Russians. Until then, your claims are laughable.


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## swintok

A.O.T. said:


> [Most of quoted post deleted.]
> 
> By the way his name was *Agafangel. *



There may be a personal history here of which I am unaware, but I see no need to fling personal insults in a grammatical forum. 

Путь is a perfectly acceptable, if now somewhat archaic, Ukrainian word.  It is preserved in the Ukrainian spoken in North America which, for all its other faults, is arguably the language least influenced by Russian.  It is in Andrusyshyn's authoritative Ukrainian-English dictionary of 1981.  It is also mentioned in the "Харківський правопис" of 1928.  Finally, it is found in classical Ukrainian literature.  Consider, for example:


На шлях я вийшла ранньою весною 
І тихий спів несмілий заспівала, 
А хто стрівався на шляху зо мною, 
Того я щирим серденьком вітала: 
«Самій не довго збитися з *путі*, 
Та трудно з неї збитись у гурті». 

Л. Українка, _Мій шлях_, 1890 

Не забудь, не забудь
Юних днів, днів весни
*Путь* життя, темну *путь
*Прояснюють вони.
І. Франко, 1882

Just because a word exists in Russian as well as Ukrainian does not automatically make the word a Russianism.


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## chifladoporlosidiomas

"ПЪТЯ" in Bulgarian is feminine.


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## Christo Tamarin

Anicetus said:


> Brainiac said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know if this is again a plain coincidence, but *patnik *in Serbian means sufferer, martyr.
> 
> 
> 
> _Patnik_ is derived from _patiti_, a verb with an unclear etymology. Its cognate isn't found in other Slavic languages, and the similarity with the Latin _pati_ is obvious...
Click to expand...

I agree with Anicetus that Serbian *patnik* was derived from the verb _patiti_. That verb exists in Bulgarian as well: *патя*. In both Bulgarian and Serbian, it is a Greek loanword: *παθαίνω*. Nothing in common with Russian путь, Bulgarian път (<= пѫть <= *pontis).


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## Anicetus

Very well, what I should have said was that it wasn't a common Slavic word. One (not very trustworthy) dictionary suggested the possibility of _patiti_ coming from the Dalmatian Romance language (< Latin _pati_, cognate to the Greek verb with a very similar meaning, hence English words like _patient_ or _passive_). However, words from Dalmatian aren't that numerous in the Croatian standard, and those that I can think of actually aren't found in Serbian (_dupin, spužva_). Of course, Greek origin makes much more sense if it exists in Bulgarian as well.


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