# New sub-forums



## beri

Since I had this thread closed for it was, supposedly, too global and off-charter, although it had aroused great interest from the forer@s, I suggest that be made sub-forums (or simply forums) for general topics, for *curious * people who want to learn for their own pleasure and satisfaction (which will also help them in translation later on).
I mean, the present language forums are made for people who have translation issues to ask for some help, not for people who want to learn from the others so that their *thirst for knowledge * is satisfied.

For instance, these forums could be the place for "expressions about sadness", "phrasal verbs", "slang around the face/body" threads.

I think many of our members would like to learn this way for their own pleasure and would be very happy to have them.

For instance, I only come to WR during my working hours, and I suppose most of us do so. If this happened, I (and maybe not just me ) would come all the time or, at least, besides work.

I hope my suggestion will bear fruit.

Sincerely,

Beri


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## DDT

beri said:
			
		

> Since I had this thread closed for it was, supposedly, too global and off-charter, although it had aroused great interest from the forer@s, I suggest that be made sub-forums (or simply forums) for general topics, for *curious * people who want to learn for their own pleasure and satisfaction (which will also help them in translation later on).
> I mean, the present language forums are made for people who have translation issues to ask for some help, not for people who want to learn from the others so that their *thirst for knowledge * is satisfied.
> 
> For instance, these forums could be the place for "expressions about sadness", "phrasal verbs", "slang around the face/body" threads.
> 
> I think many of our members would like to learn this way for their own pleasure and would be very happy to have them.
> 
> For instance, I only come to WR during my working hours, and I suppose most of us do so. If this happened, I (and maybe not just me ) would come all the time or, at least, besides work.
> 
> I hope my suggestion will bear fruit.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Beri



I don't understand why you use the forums to (indirectly) attack a mod whose intervention bothered you. I think rules are clear enough so that your insinuation about interest or something sounds quite pointless to my ears. Some foreros would be interested in chatting, this doesn't imply that WR will allow chat (apart from the present WR birthday thread, of course).

Your suggestion about sub-forums sounds interesting, I think it might be something Mike will consider in the future. But please consider that the "English Only" already answers to part of your expectations (only about English, I know).

BUT let me disagree with you when you state that «the present language forums are made for people who have translation issues to ask for some help, not for people who want to learn from the others»...personally I came here to ask for some explanations about English and I stayed because I discovered that I could really learn so much from the other members...

One more thing: I think that everyone's choice to call in during working hours or in spare time is related to the way they approach the forums. I really like staying here and I enter WR whenever I feel like... 

DDT


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## beri

There was absolutely no settling of accounts in my message. I just showed what triggered this initiative in me. 



			
				DDT said:
			
		

> Your suggestion about sub-forums sounds interesting, I think it might be something Mike will consider in the future. But please consider that the "English Only" already answers to part of your expectations (only about English, I know).


Exactly  these sub-forums would be made to learn and teach at the same time 



> BUT let me disagree with you when you state that «the present language forums are made for people who have translation issues to ask for some help, not for people who want to learn from the others»


I didn't express myself correctly, I meant "learn "à la volée"", learning lists of stuff, not about one particular expression 



> One more thing: I think that everyone's choice to call in during working hours or in spare time is related to the way they approach the forums. I really like staying here and I enter WR whenever I feel like...


I never said anything opposite  but I am an example and I am sure I'm not alone. Anyway these sub-forum could be really great and I hope many forer@s concur 

Beri


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## VenusEnvy

I'm confused about the subforums. According to your idea, they would mainly discuss vocabulary and idiomatic expressions. But, that's what they do right now!    I agree with DDT in that the forums aren't simply a place to get translations. In fact, I would imagine that very _few _ people feel that way.


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## beri

Hi Venus
if you search the forums, you may find a number of thematic threads.
They were quite successful, but there aren't any any more.
Now, threads are to deal with a single expression ("please post a new thread for a new request"). The purpose of these subforums would be to make threads around thematic topics and to learn together several things in a thread.
In one single thread you would find like 10 (or more or less of course) ways to describe a drunk person, in slang, in higher language, in common language.

other examples:
if you want to learn expressions with the word "heart", you make a thread, asking for examples, for contexts, and for frequences of use
if you want to know how one can call their friends in a cool way, or slang words for "car", "shoe" (that are visibly more common in French than in English - bagnole, caisse / godasses, pompes, etc.) (and their frequence of use), well, you'll just be able to know, and the others too.

same with phrasal verbs, etc., useful expressions or turns, etc

I'll stop here with examples or my post will be 2 pages long 

That would be a well of information


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## Isotta

I like the idea. 

Isotta.


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## mkellogg

Hi Beri,

I've had a similar idea for a while.  A place for "themed lists", glossaries and synonyms.  
Topics could include:
- animal expressions
- kitchen utensils
- greeting alternatives (Hi, hello, What's up?, etc.)
- specialized glossaries such as chemistry terms, accounting terms

But I haven't resolved some key questions.
- Would they be monolingual, bilingual, or multilingual?  I imagine that a popular English list would be translated into Sp., Fr., & It.
- Should it be in the familiar forum format, or should I design a table where foreros could input the data?

Maybe I'm thinking too far ahead.  Beri seems to just want to create lists, where I'm thinking more about glossaries, but I think the two things would go together.

Mike


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## Cath.S.

I think Beri's a very good idea, when the thread about animal expressions was closed, I felt it was a necessary move (I had just spent a very long time splitting La Grive Solitaire's thread about heart-related expressions,) but it also made me a little bit sad because such lists are really useful _and_ fun, and we could end up with a compilation much more exhaustive than what can be found on other sites.

I also feel such lists of idioms and expressions would help attract more people to WR.
Let me also add that since Jana has started her idiomatic expressions project in the German Forum, I have been feeling a bit envious,  although I think that thematic lists are a better idea. 



			
				mkellogg said:
			
		

> Would they be monolingual, bilingual, or multilingual? I imagine that a popular English list would be translated into Sp., Fr., & It.


They'd have to be bilingual if we want them to be really interesting, and translating English expressions to other languages is not enough, imo, it would also have to be the other way around, because there aren't always equivalents to idiomatic expressions and sometimes an expression can only be paraphrased, not translated. If we just translated English expressions to, say, French, a lot of French original expressions would be left out.
So really we would have to have as many language pairs as there are language forums.

When enough material has been gatherd, we could have a multilingual version.


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## mkellogg

Right equeule.  That's what I find so complicated about it.  Bilingual lists are easy because you don't need a source language.  Maybe I was complicating it too much in my mind by trying to make it multilingual, where you would need to have a source language that all the other languages are translated from.


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## beri

About multi-lingualness, I think they would be bi-lingual in each forum.

Or what could be interesting would be, for each thread, to make 2 single-language threads and explanations in the language of each thread.
Consequently, people would have there landmarks relative to the expressions in the same language.
That's something i've been thinking about. Sometimes it is difficult for us to speak because we think too much in our own language and we transpose/translate it into the other language, and we make errors.
Whereas when someone gives you a definition of a word, not a translation, you assimilate the idea better, I think, you have a better overall idea of the notion.

So the idea would also be to give definitions, contexts, frequences of use, levels of language, etc. anyway everything that could enable people how to use the expression in the right place. e.g. not say "you're barking up the wrong tree" to a policeman who asks you if you have something to declare 

So clearly: bilingual sub-forums, one for each forum. I think that would be the best.

I have thought about sth too. Every member who wants to contribute to complementing a "database" should edit their "main post of the thread" (which would be, I guess, their first one) to add their new entries, and, why not, make another post to say "database edited". And eventually, if possible, the creator of the thread could edit his/her first post, comprising all the entries available.

How about that? Have I been clear?


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## VenusEnvy

beri said:
			
		

> How about that? Have I been clear?


Beri: Yes, I'm starting to see where you're going. And, it sounds twice as good as a regular 'ol dictionary. I also like the idea of including categories (definition, context, frequencies of use), but they'd have to be ironed out to be more cohesive. Overall, I like it! (And, thanks for elaborating.)

I'd like to see how Mike would approach this technically.


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## beri

not necessarily categories, just indications for use, but it could be cool to make categories (although that would require to be able to make tables).
Anyway we'll see and I'm elated that my project has gathered your enthusiasm, I'm jumping so hard I'm almost flying, with the

thrusts
swans
sparrows
swallows
robins
etc.
?


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## DDT

beri said:
			
		

> not necessarily categories, just indications for use, but it could be cool to make categories (although that would require to be able to make tables).
> Anyway we'll see and I'm elated that my project has gathered your enthusiasm, I'm almost flying, can you see me flying with the
> 
> thrusts
> swans
> sparrows
> swallows
> robins
> etc.
> ?



So that we might happen to bump into "beris" while flying?


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## beri

nope, but maybe eat
raspberis, blackberis, strawberis... hayberis 

anyway, let's get back to our business


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## mkellogg

> So clearly: bilingual sub-forums, one for each forum. I think that would be the best.


 
I agree.  We would make it as simple as possible, and we can make it more complex later.  This keeps it simple, and people can 'steal' expressions and topics from the French sub-forum for the Spanish sub-forum and vice versa.



> I have thought about sth too. Every member who wants to contribute to complementing a "database" should edit their "main post of the thread" (which would be, I guess, their first one) to add their new entries, and, why not, make another post to say "database edited". And eventually, if possible, the creator of the thread could edit his/her first post, comprising all the entries available.


 
Yes, I think that would be nice, but maybe not required at first.


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## Jana337

egueule said:
			
		

> Let me also add that since Jana has started her idiomatic expressions project in the German Forum, I have been feeling a bit envious,  although I think that thematic lists are a better idea.


*proud*  

Here is why I do not like thematic lists: Whenever I - as a language learner - tried to learn everything that contains the word "heart", I ended up with a total mess in my head, with idioms merging with each other and a low long-run learning impact. This may be my personal problem. But I simply prefer learning one idiom about heart, one about track, one about work to cramming in three involving heart.

Also, I believe that the best translation of an idiom is a context and a discussion about all shades it may span in different situations - as opposed to a direct translation into the target language that may be well misleading as we saw when discussing both the English and the German version of "in seventh heaven" - some German members insisted that this invariably implies being in love. Egueule who took part (thank you for it!) even showed us that this idiom has a rather piquant meaning in French. I cannot see how you want to capture these subtleties in a single dictionary-like entry.

I believe that the strength of these forums lies in interaction and communication. Emulating dictionaries will not increase their appeal to me.

Jana


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## beri

Jana > I think foreros will automatically self-moderate themselves, giving expressions that are commonly used, or that have some interest 

Her speech inspired me something.
In the threads, foreros could also chat between them, using every time one word or expression that has a relation to the topic, even if they are "lying" when chatting. Like someone will say "wow, it's raining cats and dogs here", even though it actually isn't. And so on, everyone replying with the expressions they know, be it in English or in the second language of the forum. (1: "je suis sûr que tu l'apprécies beaucoup, j'en mettrais ma main à couper/au feu", 2: "indeed, she's the apple of my eye", 3: "dis-moi que tu plaisantes, je n'en crois pas mes oreilles, cette fille me sort par les narines!")
Of course, such discussions could not take place in threads about birds (lists of bird names), for instance, since one cannot guess what the bird X is if it is just dropped as such in the middle of a sentence. Hope again that I'm clear. 

That would be for the practical part, then.


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## panjandrum

Hi people;
Sorry if this gets a bit dry, but I am a systems-person with classifications and coding schemes tattooed on my soul. I have seen so many Babel-towers built with good intentions....
I think the general idea is sound. 
Theme-based language reference material could be really useful. 
Such material contributed by foreri (is that the plural of forer@) could be very alive and democratic.
I say "could" because it can only be "good" if it can be used easily as a resource.
So, here are a few principles that would need to be applied:

1. The material would have to be consolidated: - an un-ordered, unconsolidated, ever-increasing list of posts will not be useful.

2. The material would need to be at least bi-lingual: - a list of all themed material in French alone would be no help to anyone other than a Francophone - who doesn't need it anyway.

3. The material should include context: - sick as a parrot on it's own helps nobody.

4. There should be no increased burden on already over-pressed mods.

5. There should be no ongoing increased burden on already over-pressed Mikes.

6. Someone would have to "own" any theme-based material - it cannot be anarchic.

7. Themes could not simply be generated at the drop of a hat (there's one) by any old forer@: - if these are to be reference material, there needs to be an approval - a fit for theme - process.

8. Themes could not be enormous: - the stuff said already demands some kind of oversight, which means that somehow these need to be manageable.

9. Connections between themes in different language contexts would be really, really interesting - and hence important: - but HOW.

Buggrit - I can't think of a tenth commandment - ah, just thought of one.
10. Themes would need to be able to run within a language pair or across all languages.

11. These would need to be in a separate place on WR, not cluttering up the main fora.

I started a thread on thingy/ whatsit etc, with the intention of developing a single consolidated list across languages of the outcome. It got just too hard.

Cross-language themes would be interesting too - for example the one I just mentioned, "happy birthday" in as many languages as possible. There have been lots of requests here for "Please tell me how to say XXXXX in your language"

So?

Well I think it is a great idea, but it could only work with discipline and real effort by whoever is designated the minder for each approved theme.

Unless that is going to be there, the result would simply be anarchy.


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## cuchuflete

Bravo Beri!  Bravo Panj!

I very much like the idea, though I'll confess it took me 10 or more posts to understand it!  We have had many threads in English only and in Spanish/English that would qualify.

There are times when a topic rather than a word or phrase, bears some deep discussion.  The proposed sub-forums would suit that purpose very nicely.

I would like it just a little less organized than Panj....the anarchist in me shows through...though I gratefully acknowledge the points about organization.  I can envision it as somewhat Wiki-like, with the person starting the thread acting as a quasi-mod for that particular thread, guiding things so they don't spin into galatic dimensions with boundaries light years wide.

Again, thanks for the fine ideas.

Cuchu


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## mkellogg

Panj,

Those are all the questions that I've been asking myself for the last six months.  How do you make all that work?

That's why I'm now endorsing the simple suggestion of opening sub-forums and let it go without too many rules.

Mike


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## beri

Hi all, I've been thinking about ways to make these fora clear. I'll try and make a draft and let you know. Maybe today, if I don't manage to work because of tiredness 

Otherwise, to check whether what Panjy fears, we could give these forums a shot and see if they really "partent dans tous les sens/en vrille". If so, I think it is possible to stop people from posting and we could estabish more rules, basing ourselves on our experience.
This is only a suggestion. You may want to make it clear and proper before starting anything

EDIT: oh I've just seen that's what Mike said. Great spirits concur


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## beri

I also think threads such as this one should be allowed too, since they are a form of knowledge of the other cultures.
Actually, the purpose I intend to give these forums is that of making people be more fluent, have more vocabulary, look more "native" when they go abroad. See what I mean? I think there are not 107 types of threads like the one above, so it wouldn't disturb too much, although it's not really vocabulary only, insofar as it's about learning and about words too


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## panjandrum

Interesting.​ 
I offer another set of principles if the first "control freakish" set are too much so and are impracticable. Another strawman, with fewer straws, if you like.

Good things principles, if you don’t like the first set I declared, I have lots more.

Sorry if this repeats stuff posted already – but if it does, that’s deliberate.



1. Each main forum could have a “Themes” sub-forum. There should also be a multi-language “Themes” sub-forum – perhaps under “Additional forums”?

2. A sticky at the top of each theme sub-forum should include guidance on how it should operate. Model theme-starts and responses perhaps?

2. The starter of each theme should clearly describe the theme and what they expect posts on the theme to include.

3. Theme-starters should be encouraged to keep the field narrow(ish).

4. Theme-starters should be encouraged to consolidate, if possible, the material they provoke. [Is there some feature in here that would help do this? I could see that post#1 on each theme could have stuff edited-in by the theme-starter, but that seems a bit cumbersome.]



5. Posters in theme sub-forums of bilingual forums should be encouraged to post the key elements of their post in both languages. That could be a collective thing so that theme phrase might be suggested by one poster with the translated version by another. This is getting too detailed. I am trying to encourage two things: that theme phrases be translated literally, and that bi-lingual equivalences be given. Clear? ​ 





Oh yes, just to clarify my own position. I am posting these to aid discussion, not in any sense putting them (or the last set) forward as the right answer. Again, it's a work thing, I do it all the time, usually on a white-board that gets rubbed clean many times before the right answer with the best of the rest comes through.


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## Cath.S.

> The material would need to be at least bi-lingual: - a list of all themed material in French alone would be no help to anyone other than a Francophone - who doesn't need it anyway.


I couldn't agree more. 
I had got annoyed with the heart thread because some people were just listing heart-related expressions without bothering to translate or at least explain them.


> There should be no increased burden on already over-pressed mods.


I hate to say this, but it is only wishful thinking. There will be a bit more work. I personally don't mind. More work is better than chaos imho.


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## beri

DDT > couldnt reach you by PM so:
"di viso, non ti ho nella mia lista, mi dovrai parlare primo la prossima volta
'notte
Beri"
sorry to others for disturbing


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## beri

concerning mods: why not appoint some more moderators? cause I guess in their early days, these forums will be a lot of work. You shall have understood, I'm deep in 

DDT, empty your inbox!!!  I'll send my ideas to Mike for the moment


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