# EN: I'm never giving up



## besoul

Bonjour à tous,

Un petit point de grammaire m'échappe, et je me tourne donc vers vous.
Dans une chanson ("Indestructible"), les phrases suivantes sont prononcées:

_I'm ready for whatever
I'm never giving up
Nothing can break my spirit
'Cause it is undestructible_

Pour moi, c'est soit une habitude (on dirait donc _I never give up_: je n'abandonne jamais) soit en ce moment, je n'abandonne pas (usage du présent continu: _I'm not giving up_).

Mais alors d'où vient ce "I'm never giving up"? 

Merci d'avance pour vos explications.


----------



## Oddmania

Salut,

Cet usage du présent continu m'échappe un petit peu aussi. A mon avis, il exprime un futur (de façon informelle)  

C'est facile à comprendre dans des phrases comme _I'm not leaving until blablabla_ (→ _Je ne *pars*/partirai pas avant que..._), car on peut utiliser le présent en français aussi, mais il y a des fois où je trouve ça beaucoup moins logique (comme dans _I'm never giving up_ ou encore_ I'm never growing up_, que j'ai entendu dans une chanson moi aussi).


----------



## Caroline35

[…]
In my opinion "I'm never giving up" can be viewed as a future tense. "Je ne woudrai jamais renoncer à moi même."  This was my version. Caroline


----------



## Lavernock

[…]
*Je ne vais jamais renoncer (à ce que je veux faire)*


----------



## pointvirgule

besoul said:


> Pour moi, c'est soit une habitude (on dirait donc _I never give up_: je n'abandonne jamais) soit en ce moment, je n'abandonne pas (usage du présent continu: _I'm not giving up_).


Je pense que c'est un télescopage de _I'm never going to give up_. 

C'est une manière informelle (c'est de la chanson populaire, après tout) de dire : _Je n'abandonnerai jamais, je ne baisserai jamais les bras. _


----------



## besoul

Effectivement pointvirgule, c'est ce qui me semble le plus probable.

Leur tendance récurrente aux raccourcis fait que ça en devient à la limite incompréhensible...

I'm never going to give up devient:
I never gonna give up qui devient:
I'm never giving up... 

Merci pour vos explications. Je pense que c'est celle qui tient le plus la route.


----------



## Enquiring Mind

The explanations about the tenses all seem plausible, and to my ears too it means "I will not ever give up".  Perhaps it's worth pointing out, however, that there's another use of "never" - usually in spoken rather than written English - which is simply a more emphatic form of "not", and it needn't have any reference to the future.   

"What's that on my plate?  Frogs' legs?  I'm never eating that." (I absolutely refuse to eat it.)  

"It was you who broke the window, wasn't it?"  "No I never!" (No I didn't, it definitely wasn't me)

"Where's your mobile phone?  You've never lost it, have you?" (It doesn't mean "at no time in the past", it means you haven't just lost it, because if you have, that would be really bad news.)

This could - conceivably - be the meaning in this song too, though I am inclined to agree with the other posters.


----------



## ogspog89

The definition of 'never' expressed by Enquiring Mind is slightly  archaic and elevated, and would probably only be used in a modern pop  song for ironic or stylistic purposes, in my opinion.

But here, with the present progressive tense and 'never', it is definitely  talking about the future: 

"I will never give up" = "I'm never giving up"  = "I'm never going to give up"

It works with many verbs:

_I'm never going to France._ (= I'm never going to go to France)
_I'm never giving up._
_I'm never eating that. _(unlike Enquiring Mind, I believe this example indicates future)
However, it seems to not work with others so well...


----------



## Glasguensis

ogspog89 said:


> The definition of 'never' expressed by Enquiring Mind is slightly archaic and elevated, and would probably only be used in a modern pop song for ironic or stylistic purposes, in my opinion.


I disagree that it's archaic - it's still very commonly used in some British English dialects (especially in parts of England). However there is no doubt in my mind that in this particular case it is a future tense - another way of saying "I'm never going to give up". Remember that in English it is perfectly acceptable to use the present tense to refer to future events:
I'm giving up (now)
I'm giving up next week
I'm not giving up (now)
I'm not giving up next week
I'm not giving up ever
I'm never giving up


----------



## besoul

Glasguensis said:


> I'm giving up (now)
> I'm giving up next week
> I'm not giving up (now)
> I'm not giving up next week
> I'm not giving up ever
> I'm never giving up



I've never heard something like this. It sounds really weird. Nonetheless, i think i'm not in the best position to know what's right or not. Thank you for those examples.


----------



## Keith Bradford

besoul said:


> I've never heard something like this. It sounds really weird...


 
Allons !  L'utilisation du présent pour parler de l'avenir est tout à fait courant en français également.  P.ex.  "_Demain, je vais en ville, j'achète un pantalon pour mon fils. Il entre au lycée en septembre..._"

Et n'oublions pas que les chansons populaires ne sont pas connues pour l'exactitude de leur grammaire.


----------



## besoul

Keith Bradford said:


> Allons !  L'utilisation du présent pour parler de l'avenir est tout à fait courant en français également.  P.ex.  "_Demain, je vais en ville, j'achète un pantalon pour mon fils. Il entre au lycée en septembre..._"
> 
> Et n'oublions pas que les chansons populaires ne sont pas connues pour l'exactitude de leur grammaire.



Tout à fait, je n'ai jamais dit le contraire. Ce qui m'a davantage dérouté c'est l'usage qui en est fait en _anglais_.

"I'm not giving up next week" : autant en français un tel usage ne m'aurait pas heurté, autant l'association du présent continu avec une temporelle future en anglais me choque davantage. L'usage du présent continu (autre que i'm going to...) pour exprimer un futur proche m'était juste inconnu, et je vais donc tâcher de retenir cette formulation.

Voilà, @+


----------



## djweaverbeaver

Hello,

Here is my understand of the two sentences.  

When one says *I never give up*,  you are stating that as a general rule, no matter what obstacles or adversities might come at you in life, you never quit.  You always weather the storm and persevere until you achieve a goal or overcome an obstacle.  You have a sort of quitters-never-win-style attitude.  

On the other hand, when one says *I'm never giving up*, you are indicating that you are currently dealing with or experiencing a certain setback or challenge  in your life and that despite all the hurdles slowing you down, you are hanging in there until you either overcome the obstacle or achieve the goal that you'd set for yourself.

So, when you actually look at the two examples above, you see that they actually fit into the basic rules that you've learned about the _simple pretense_ and the _pretense continuous/progressive_, respectively: the former is stating a general fact, whereas the latter is expressing something that is happening now at this very moment that can continue on until some point at some future time.

I hope this answers your question.


----------



## Carcassonnaise

Ha, ha... who would have thought a simple use of the present continuous to express future intention could have caused such controversy!
To me, it's completely standard usage.
"I'm giving up smoking next week."  I have made the firm intention and use the standard tense to express this.
"I'm never giving up smoking!"  I have no intention of ever doing this. 
Good and grammatical day to you all.


----------



## lucas-sp

I agree with Carcassonnaise - this is totally normal! "I'm flying in to London on the 24th." "I'm singing in _Die Zauberflöte_ next season." "We're covering Diderot in French in the fall semester." "I'm never selling this house to anyone." Or, conversely, "I'm eating here whenever I can from now on." All of these plans have been made in the present and can be expected to continue... which is, I believe, a fairly standard use of the present continuous. These structures tend to also have an adverbial phrase signaling the time at which the intention is expected to (re-)occur: "the 24th," "next season," "never," "whenever I can." When the adverbial phrase is absent, it seems safer to assume a standard present continuous which won't stretch far into the future: "I'm giving up" sounds like the speaker is giving up right now, and perhaps expects someone to give him/her a pep talk right away to break that intention.

It should be distinguished from the near future formed with "going to," however, although the two forms are so close in English that it might be hard to separate them rigorously.


----------



## Oddmania

lucas-sp said:


> I agree with Carcassonnaise - this is totally normal! "I'm flying in to London on the 24th." "I'm singing in _Die Zauberflöte_ next season." "We're covering Diderot in French in the fall semester." "I'm never selling this house to anyone." Or, conversely, "I'm eating here whenever I can from now on." All of these plans have been made in the present and can be expected to continue... which is, I believe, a fairly standard use of the present continuous. These structures tend to also have an adverbial phrase signaling the time at which the intention is expected to (re-)occur: "the 24th," "next season," "never," "whenever I can." When the adverbial phrase is absent, it seems safer to assume a standard present continuous which won't stretch far into the future: "I'm giving up" sounds like the speaker is giving up right now, and perhaps expects someone to give him/her a pep talk right away to break that intention.
> 
> It should be distinguished from the near future formed with "going to," however, although the two forms are so close in English that it might be hard to separate them rigorously.



I think that, what sounds strange to a few French speakers is the way the Present Continuous is used with a imprecise dates 

_I'm doing this tomorrow/on Tuesday/etc_ sounds perfectly normal as we say the same in French, but _I'm never giving up_ would require the Future tense in French.

Actually, it almost seems like the Present Continuous could be used in any context instead of the future (as in _I'm never growing up_, as I heard in a song too).


----------



## lucas-sp

Well to be honest "never" seems pretty precise. It does in fact rule out all possible dates - what could be more clear? 

I do think this construction tends to have an adverb indicating the planned time at which the action will occur - and "always," "never," "as soon as possible" all seem good enough to me. They aren't necessarily precise in terms of calendar dates, but they are precise in terms of points in time related to the actions expressed in the sentences:

"As soon as you have a free evening, we're watching _Breakfast At Tiffany's_ together."

Doesn't this exist in French, too, with something like "je ne mange plus jamais d'écrevisses"? ("I'm never eating crawdads again.")


----------



## Oddmania

lucas-sp said:


> Well to be honest "never" seems pretty precise. It does in fact rule out all possible dates - what could be more clear?



Haha, this is one way of looking at things, indeed! 



lucas-sp said:


> Doesn't this exist in French, too, with something like "je ne mange plus jamais d'écrevisse"? ("I'm never eating crawdads again.")



Yes, it does make sense, but we would tend to add _plus jamais d'écrevisses *de ma vie*_ in such a situation.

English speakers can choose between the Simple Present and the Present Continuous, so _I'm never giving up_ rules out any present habit.

In French, _J'abandonne jamais _conveys the idea of habit, _I never give up_ or _I'm not used to giving up_, that's probably why it's not possible to use the Present tense in French.

_Je ne mange plus jamais d'écrevisse_s is also ambiguous as it can be understood as _From now on, I don't eat crawdads anymore (Since that day/that event/etc..., I haven't eaten crawdads anymore)._

That's why we tend to add _de ma vie_: to convey the idea of future (_it won't happen again in my whole life_).


----------



## besoul

Juste pour revenir sur la phrase précédente:



			
				 "Oddmania" said:
			
		

> "Je ne mange plus jamais d'écrevisses" [...] Yes, it does make sense



Pardon mais en tant que francophone, cette tournure me choque. Pour moi, il faut soit dire "Je ne mangerai plus jamais d'écrevisses (de ma vie)." soit "Je ne mange plus jamais d'écrevisses (depuis un an)." 

D'où mon impossibilité de faire le rapprochement anglais-français au départ.

N'y a-t-il que moi que cette tournure choque (en français)?


----------



## Oddmania

besoul said:


> Juste pour revenir sur la phrase précédente:
> 
> 
> 
> Pardon mais en tant que francophone, cette tournure me choque. Pour moi, il faut soit dire "Je ne mangerai plus jamais d'écrevisses (de ma vie)." soit "Je ne mange plus jamais d'écrevisses (depuis un an)."
> 
> D'où mon impossibilité de faire le rapprochement anglais-français au départ.
> 
> N'y a-t-il que moi que cette tournure choque (en français)?



J'ai hésité aussi, mais si la phrase est dite par dégoût, juste quelques minutes après avoir goûté une écrevisse, ça ne me choquerai pas le moins du monde!
_
Ahh! Beerrk! Y a pas moyen, je mange plus jamais d'écrevisse de ma vie, moi!_


----------



## lucas-sp

> J'ai hésité aussi, mais si la phrase est dite par dégoût, juste quelques  minutes après avoir goûté une écrevisse, ça ne me choquerai pas le  moins du monde!
> _
> Ahh! Beerrk! Y a pas moyen, je mange plus jamais d'écrevisse de ma vie,  moi!_



Merci Oddmania, c'est exactement çe que j'ai voulu exprimer. C'est une résolution faite sur place qui continuera dans le futur imaginé par le sens de la phrase. Donc en anglais c'est assez simple - une action dans le présent qui dure(ra) ou continue(ra), la définition même du "present continuous." Je croix que la situation dans "I'm never giving up!" est équivalent - l'émetteur fait une résolution, une intention pour l'avenir, dans et dès le présent.

Bien sûr, cette tournure est beaucoup plus courante en anglais qu'en français, mais quand même il existe des usages pareils, comme avec ces écrevisses infectes...


----------

