# Nt = D?



## greco-mexicano

When translating names into Greek characters, do D- names turn into Ντ-?

For example, I wanted to translate my friend's name Daisy into Greek characters, but I wasn't sure how to spell it.

Νταιζη? Νταϊζη?

Another website (http://www.languages-of-the-world.us/YourNameIn/Greek.html) said Ντεϊζυ but I know that can't be right.

Thank you!


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## Billopoulos

Either Νταίζη or Ντέιζη...
It depends in the pronunciation of the name...


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## anthodocheio

Apart from NT there is no other D in Greek.
Althought in can have different pronunciations, it's allways written the same way.


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## marilou

Nt=d
el d griego delta es mas simil al th como el ultimo d en Madrid


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## BlueWolf

greco-mexicano said:


> Another website (http://www.languages-of-the-world.us/YourNameIn/Greek.html) said Ντεϊζυ but I know that can't be right.



To me Ντεϊζυ actually seems the best solution. The "a" in Daisy is more similar to an "ε" than to an "α", and "y" in Greek is historically υ (and in fact the capitalized form is Υ and it's called ύψιλον = ypsilon), even if η has the same pronunciation.


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## greco-mexicano

Thanks a lot to everyone who replied! 

I didn't know that names could end in υ place of η.


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## greco-mexicano

Ohhh neat.  I babelfish'd "daisy" into Greek and it's μαργαρίτα?  Same with Spanish!  I always thought μαργαρίτα meant "pearl."  Even more similarities between Greek and Spanish.  I'm liking this.


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## Spectre scolaire

marilou said:
			
		

> el d griego (delta) es mas simil al th como el ultimo d en Madrid


Exactly - and that is the reason why, according to appearances, there are two ways of writing “d” in Greek. The classical /d/ had developed into [ð] as in Madrid [both *d*, I’d say, not only the last one], so a new way had to be “invented” in order to cater for the sound [d] as in English ‘dog’. 

The way this was done in conventional orthography gives an indication of the fact that there is actually no _indepenent_ [d] in Modern Greek. We only find [d] together with a nasal, f.ex. δέντρο [ðéndro], “tree”, έντομο [éndomo], “insect”. Because the nasal element is a "reduced n", it may be more adequate to write [ðé²dro] and [é²domo] in which ² represents a (weak) prenasal element, often written as a superscript small n (or as an n with a dot underneath it) – I can’t do any better with the fonts I have got.

When we often see the word δέντρο written δένδρο, it is a classicizing way of writing it – the sequence [²ðr] does not exist in Modern Greek.

So, what about Ντέϊζυ? First of all, the final υ is somehow strange because it represents the English letter y which, in Standard English(!), is always pronounced _ i final position. Considering the controversy about the so-called “Erasmian pronunciation”, i.e. the Greek allegation that f.ex. υ was always pronounced , one would expect Ντεϊζ__ι. The same comment would be relevant when writing Ντέϊζη. But the Ντέϊζυ or Ντέϊζη graphic realizations of Daisy are not the only contradictions to the way in which a word like δ*ι*ακ*η*ρ*ύ*ξ*ει*ς should be pronounced in Classical Greek - according to many Greeks. 

The more interesting thing with Ντέϊζυ is that the initial [d], like we pronounce it in English, cannot be pronounced like a [d] in Greek. It will almost invariably turn out as [*²*d]. And the reason is of course that independent [d] does not exist in Modern Greek. A phonetician would say that Daisy in Greek will be pronounced with a prenasalized *d*. I said *almost* invariably because in Northern Greek dialects the phoneme /d/ actually exists – and it is spreading southwards – to the extent that “southerners” can really pronounce it at all. Apparently there is a socio-linguistic trend according to which the [nd] in [éndomo] is perceived as less prestigious than [é²domo]. Many Athenians even insist that they say [édomo], but spectrographic sound analyses don’t confirm this. 

Of course, the same phenomenon obtains for the other voiced stops *b* and *g*, written μπ and γκ in Modern Greek.
​_


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## greco-mexicano

So basically no matter how hard I try to learn Greek next semester at my university, I will probably never sound like a native Greek.    My dad was from Greece, but he never spoke Greek at home with me and my sister.

Well, I'll try.  Thanks for more of the background behind the "d" sound in Greek.


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## Spectre scolaire

greco-mexicano said:
			
		

> I will probably never sound like a native Greek.


Well, you won’t – but that has nothing to do with the phenomenon described!! Our brain is already “too old” to learn _perfectly_ – that is _without any accent_ - another language at the age of 19. But _motivation_ is an important factor counteracting the “aging process”. And shouldn’t we all aspire towards perfection?

The interesting thing with phonetics is that if you do an initial course in phonetics – before embarking on a language study – you may arrive at the point of being able to “fool” a native. And that is such a personal pleasure in itself that you’ll forget any perceived vicissitudes about your phonetic _initiation_. Strangely enough, most students dislike this kind of theory, and many people get bored when you talk about it, but phonetics is a surprising tool in order to arrive precisely where you want, and that is to speak a language “fluently”. The “ντ issue” is just a detail of the whole picture.

As a fluent speaker of Spanish (as you obviously are), there is another thing worth mentioning. The phonemic inventories of Spanish and Modern Greek are surprisingly similar! 

One day you may as well make a Greek believe that your _lengua paterna_ is Greek, and the conversation will go on for some time, but at one point, you’ll make an error which is not purely phonetic, but is related to morphology, grammar, idioms or vocabulary. To eliminate that you’ll need another 20 years of intensive reading...

A course in Classical Greek would also eliminate most errors pertaining to morphology and grammar, the classical language being a “shortcut” to understanding _why_ the Greeks of today say this and not that.

Good luck! 
​


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## anthodocheio

Spectre scolaire said:


> As a fluent speaker of Spanish (as you obviously are), there is another thing worth mentioning. The phonemic inventories of Spanish and Modern Greek are surprisingly similar!
> 
> One day you may as well make a Greek believe that your _lengua paterna_ is Greek, and the conversation will go on for some time, but at one point, you’ll make an error which is not purely phonetic, but is related to morphology, grammar, idioms or vocabulary. To eliminate that you’ll need another 20 years of intensive reading...


 
I could never express it that way but I wanted to tell you the same. If you realy are greco-mexicano don't doubt that you can speak greek as good as we natives do which of course is never perfect.
About the other issue, the 20 years of intensive study, well, I would say that spenting 2 years in Greece (having a previous knowledge) will make wonders. ...y supuesto que a los 19 anos sigues siento muuuuy joven...

Saludos

griega solo


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## marilou

Spectre scolaire said:


> Exactly - and that is the reason why, according to appearances, there are two ways of writing “d” in Greek. The classical /d/ had developed into [ð] as in Madrid [both *d*, I’d say, not only the last one], so a new way had to be “invented” in order to cater for the sound [d] as in English ‘dog’.
> 
> I wrote for example Madrid because the last D is pronounced like δ
> generally the last d in a spanish word is like δ!


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## Forero

The last d of Madrid can be pronounced voiceless (as theta) or even not pronounced at all, but the first d is pretty close to the Greek sound, at least in central Spain.  So is the English voiced th as in "then".


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## greco-mexicano

Thanks for the inspirational messages!  I want to know Greek well enough so I can speak it at home with my kids someday...as I force them into Greek school at a young age. 

I'm going to try to do everything I wish my native Greek speaking dad had done when I was still young.  I should've been taught from early on.


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## parakseno

greco-mexicano said:


> I always thought μαργαρίτα meant "pearl."



That (the pearl, I mean) would be "(το) μαργαριτάρι".


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## Mr.Logic

greco-mexicano said:


> Ohhh neat.  I babelfish'd "daisy" into Greek and it's μαργαρίτα?  Same with Spanish!  I always thought μαργαρίτα meant "pearl."  Even more similarities between Greek and Spanish.  I'm liking this.


Daisy is marguerite in French too.


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## ioanell

greco-mexicano said:


> Ohhh neat. I babelfish'd "daisy" into Greek and it's μαργαρίτα? Same with Spanish! I always thought μαργαρίτα meant "pearl." Even more similarities between Greek and Spanish. I'm liking this.





Mr.Logic said:


> Daisy is marguerite in French too.


Not only in Spanish and French, but in all the Romance languages (and even languages of the Germanic subfamily, such as German and English, although with much less frequency) with slight spelling differentiations as well as in some Balto-Slavic languages, such as Latvian, Russian, Slovenian, Bulgarian. Margaret is a fem. proper name, from Old French Margaret (French Marguerite), from Late Latin Margarita, female name, literally "pearl," from Greek *margaritēs *(lithos [=stone]) meaning "pearl," which is of oriental origin, probably Iranian, Middle Persian [“marvārīt”]. The application of the word *μαργαρίτα* to the herbaceous flower probably resulted from the resemblance of its white petals (around the yellow disk) to a string of white pearls. In Modern Greek *μαργαρίτης* gave the diminutive μαργαριτ_άριον_>μαργαριτ_άριν_>*μαργαριτάρι* meaning pearl, while μαργαρίτα (the flower) is a reborrowing from Italian from Late Latin, the Ancient Greek word for it being ἀνθεμίς [anthemis] (MG ανθέμιδες=μαργαρίτες].


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## Linnets

The American movie _Driving Miss Daisy_ has been translated _Ο σοφέρ της κυρίας *Ντέιζι *_in Greek.


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## Perseas

Linnets said:


> The American movie _Driving Miss Daisy_ has been translated _Ο σοφέρ της κυρίας *Ντέιζι *_in Greek.


*Daisy* Duck is spelled *Νταίζη* (or *Νταίζυ*) Ντακ in Greek and pronounced ['dezi].


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