# Norwegian - Pronunciation of letter O



## bieq

Hello,

I REALLY don't know how to pronounce the letter *O *in Norwegian. Just like the other vowels, I know it can be either long or short and when it is long or short, but I've learned there are three different types of pronunciation; either */u, o, **ɯ**/* when short or */u:, o:, ɯ**:/* when long, but how do I know which sound to make inside a word?

My books (A practical guide to the mastery of Norwegian by Louis janus) says;

*To /t**ɯ:/
God /Gu:/
Moll /mol/*

Thank you,

Bieq


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## Cerb

I wouldn't worry about /ɯ/ and /ɯ:/ for a start at least. It takes someone with special training to point out that the "o" in "to" and "god" are different. Most Norwegian would tell you it's the exact same sound. 

It's a bigger question than I have time to answer right now, but I'll join in when I'm back from work.


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## Dan2

English has a very irregular spelling system. "son" looks like it should have the same vowel as "sob" or "sock", but it actually has the vowel of "sun".
You just have to learn this sort of thing - it's not predictable.

I don't think Norwegian is as irregular as English, but as a learner, I know that it _does_ have irregularities, and they often involve the letter 'o'.
For ex., "tog" (= "train") is actually pronounced [tåg].  As with English, you just have to learn these irregular words case by case.


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## sendintheclowns

The letter 'o' is usually pronounced as a short å sound or a long u: sound, i.e. if it is a short syllable it is usually a short å, and if it is a long syllable it is usually a long u: sound.

How do you know if it is a long or short syllable? If it ends with a double consonant it is usually short. So for example: kloke (wise) = klu:ke, while klokke (clock) = kl'åke (short å). 

Long å sound is usually spelt with the letter å, e.g. tåke (fog) = tå:ke, while short u is usually spelt with the letter u, e.g. klukke (cluck) = kl'uke

Of course there are those darn exceptions, among which "tog" is the most famous, and is pronounced with a long å: .

ɯ: and u: sound the same to me! But then again, I'm not a professional linguist.


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## bieq

Thank you guys. It was really helpful.


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## Cerb

Sorry I didn't get time to get back to this. It's summed up pretty well I think. There are some general guidelines, but a lot of the time you simply have to learn the words and how they're pronounced. If it makes it any easier, you can think of "o" as being an "å" in some cases. 

Not to confuse you any further, but I'm sure you've encountered words with "u" (i.e. /ʉ/) that are pronounced with an /u/ as well. The same goes for these. You'll simply have to learn the words. Even native speakers make mistakes here however. 

There are also some words where this will differ by dialect. Being from Oslo, I pronounce the words "olje" (oil) and oktober with an "å" while some dialects use /u/. I'm sure there are more examples here, but I'd focus on the dialect you're currently learning which I assume is "standard østnorsk".


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## Dan2

sendintheclowns said:


> The letter 'o' is usually pronounced as a short å sound or a long u: sound, i.e. if it is a short syllable it is usually a short å, and if it is a long syllable it is usually a long u: sound.
> 
> How do you know if it is a long or short syllable? If it ends with a double consonant it is usually short.  ...





Cerb said:


> Being from Oslo, I pronounce the words "olje" (oil) and oktober with an "å" while some dialects use /u/.


But the word "Oslo" itself is not pronounced with [å], right? (Even tho it has an 'o' followed by two consonants, which usually means [å].)

On the other hand, Sendintheclowns talks about the _syllable_ ending in two consonants, and "osl" doesn't look like a syllable.  Is this relevant?

Are there other important exceptions to the rule that says that 'o' + 2 consonants = [å]?

Thanks!


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## basslop

About Oslo, Dan2: Now I'm gonna say something about things I don't have much knowledge about. That's rarely wise.

One hasn't been quite able yet to find out the explanation of the name Oslo. But I THINK , it's agreed that it kind of consists of two syllables: Not *Osl* and *o* but *Os* and *lo*. That could be an explanation of the pronounication?


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## Cerb

Yes, "Oslo" is clearly two syllables. The problem with the name is that nobody's really clear on what "os" and "lo" refers to (or what "lo" is supposed to mean at all in this context). 

I seem to have caused some confusion. Sendintheclowns is of course right in that /ʉ/ will generally be pronunced as /u/ when followed by a double consonant. 

I don't have a paper dictionary at hand, but that would probably be the easiest way to figure this out. At least to get an idea how frequently these rules are broken. I'll see if I can find one.


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## Magb

bieq said:


> My books (A practical guide to the mastery of Norwegian by Louis janus) says;
> 
> *To /tɯ:/
> God /Gu:/*


I don't know where the author of your book got this information from. These definitely have the same sound (at least in all dialects I'm familiar with, although the number 2 has other forms than _to_ in some dialects), and I've never heard of the sound [ɯ] appearing anywhere in Norwegian.



Dan2 said:


> Are there other important exceptions to the rule that says that 'o' + 2 consonants = [å]?


Let's see.

It often fails to happen before /rt/: _bort_, _port_, _gjort_, _lort_, _sort_ ("black"), _fort_ ("quickly"), _skjorte_, _vorte_, _kjortel_ all have /u/. _Kort_, _sort_ ("sort"), _fort_ ("fort"), _sport_ have /o/ though. It seems like loanwords are more likely to have /o/. I can't remember which vowel _tort_ has.

/st/ is another exception area: _ost_, _kost_ ("broom"), _hoste_, _most_, _foster_ have /u/. However, _post_ and _kost_ ("cost") have /o/. I can't remember if _prost_ has /u/ or /o/.

Words that historically had /nd/, which becomes /n:/ in most dialects, also offer some exceptions: _ond_, _vond_, _bonde_ have /u/. _Sonde_ can have either /u/ or /o/, depending on who you ask.

/ms/: _boms_, _toms_, _tjoms_ have /u/.
/rn/: _korn_, _torn_, _horn_, _porno_ have /u/.

Some other exeptions: _mord_, _okse_. Some people say _tomt_ (the noun) with /u/.


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## Magb

Let me amend my own post above and point out that in the case of /rn/, the vowel is actually /u:/, not /u/. Vowels are usually lengthened before /rn/, which probably has something to do with /rn/ becoming a retroflex /ɳ/ in most dialects, and thus acting more as a single segment than as a cluster. That might also explain why you often get /u/ before /rt/, since that cluster becomes the retroflex sound /ʈ/. The vowel remains short in that environment though.


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## j0nas

Magb said:


> Let me amend my own post above and point out that in the case of /rn/, the vowel is actually /u:/, not /u/. .



I disagree. 

The vowel in bort, port, gjort etc. is obviously short. (isnt it?)


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## Magb

j0nas said:


> I disagree.
> 
> The vowel in bort, port, gjort etc. is obviously short. (isnt it?)



You may want to reread the part you quoted.  I was referring to _korn_, _horn_, etc. _Bort_, _port_, etc. do indeed have short vowels.

I thought about this a bit more and realized there's even more variation. I said that _sport_ has /o/, but on second thought I've heard people use /u/. There's also a number of Latin loanwords ending in -port, _transport_, _import_, _eksport_, etc., which I pronounce with /o/, but I've heard others say them with /u/.

I think it may have something to do with syllable stress. If the <o> is in an unstressed syllable, it's more likely to be /u/. So people who say _tránsport_ rather than _transpórt_ (the accent being a stress marker) might be more likely to use /u/. There's definitely a general tendency towards than in Norwegian; notice the vowel alternation in _geológ_ /geːuˈloːg/ "geologist" and _geologí_ /geːuluˈgiː/ "geology". We're getting into some really complex territory here though.


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## bieq

Magb said:


> I don't know where the author of your book got this information from. These definitely have the same sound (at least in all dialects I'm familiar with, although the number 2 has other forms than _to_ in some dialects), and I've never heard of the sound [ɯ] appearing anywhere in Norwegian.
> 
> 
> Let's see.
> 
> It often fails to happen before /rt/: _bort_, _port_, _gjort_, _lort_, _sort_ ("black"), _fort_ ("quickly"), _skjorte_, _vorte_, _kjortel_ all have /u/. _Kort_, _sort_ ("sort"), _fort_ ("fort"), _sport_ have /o/ though. It seems like loanwords are more likely to have /o/. I can't remember which vowel _tort_ has.
> 
> /st/ is another exception area: _ost_, _kost_ ("broom"), _hoste_, _most_, _foster_ have /u/. However, _post_ and _kost_ ("cost") have /o/. I can't remember if _prost_ has /u/ or /o/.
> 
> Words that historically had /nd/, which becomes /n:/ in most dialects, also offer some exceptions: _ond_, _vond_, _bonde_ have /u/. _Sonde_ can have either /u/ or /o/, depending on who you ask.
> 
> /ms/: _boms_, _toms_, _tjoms_ have /u/.
> /rn/: _korn_, _torn_, _horn_, _porno_ have /u/.
> 
> Some other exeptions: _mord_, _okse_. Some people say _tomt_ (the noun) with /u/.



I am really thankful to you for this very detailed post. It was more than helpful. And regarding this topic, I'll just have to learn each word and its proper pronunciation.

Bieq


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