# Leaving out the subjunctive. Speaking ungrammatical Spanish



## AnotherStephen

Hi.

I am slowly trying "to get to grips" with the Spanish subjunctive. The problem for me is as much the whole new set of endings to get into my thick head, as it is when it is right to use the subjunctive. I actually gave up on the subjunctive for a while (not more endings to learn!) but I am having another go. 

If I got on a plane to Spain, how would it sound to a Spanish person if I made no effort to use the subjunctive? Would they understand but think I was a jerk? Would they themselves be confused. Would it be hilariously funny?

Also does the subjunctive cause problems for some native speakers of Spanish, or is it natural even for those whose Spanish grammar is otherwise bad at times?


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## Benjy

i know that you are asking about spanish but i remember hearing someone say "pour que je peux.." in french and even though i undertood it just sounded horrific. i imagine it's probably the same in spanish. after all it's a mood.. not a tense.


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## Residente Calle 13

AnotherStephen said:
			
		

> Hi.
> 
> I am slowly trying "to get to grips" with the Spanish subjunctive. The problem for me is as much the whole new set of endings to get into my thick head, as it is when it is right to use the subjunctive. I actually gave up on the subjunctive for a while (not more endings to learn!) but I am having another go.
> 
> If I got on a plane to Spain, how would it sound to a Spanish person if I made no effort to use the subjunctive? Would they understand but think I was a jerk? Would they themselves be confused. Would it be hilariously funny?
> 
> Also does the subjunctive cause problems for some native speakers of Spanish, or is it natural even for those whose Spanish grammar is otherwise bad at times?



The subjunctive does not cause problems for native speakers and I don't remember even hearing children make a subjunctive mistake although the ones who say things like "andó", "cabió", and "juegar" etc.

If anybody thinks your a jerk because you make a mistake in Spanish then that person is a jerk so don't worry about that. My experience is that people from Spain are very linguistically tolerant. I would say that 99 percent of the time, they will be flattered that you have taken the time to learn Spanish.

The hard part, I think, about the subjunctive is not memorizing the endings (there are tricks that help you learn them faster) but knowing just when to use it. But don't worry about what people will think about your Spanish. What they will think is "Wow, this guy is so cool for going through the trouble of learning how to speak our language."


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## Outsider

No problems, but sometimes differences of opinion...?


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## timpeac

AnotherStephen said:
			
		

> Hi.
> 
> I am slowly trying "to get to grips" with the Spanish subjunctive. The problem for me is as much the whole new set of endings to get into my thick head, as it is when it is right to use the subjunctive. I actually gave up on the subjunctive for a while (not more endings to learn!) but I am having another go.
> 
> If I got on a plane to Spain, how would it sound to a Spanish person if I made no effort to use the subjunctive? Would they understand but think I was a jerk? Would they themselves be confused. Would it be hilariously funny?
> 
> Also does the subjunctive cause problems for some native speakers of Spanish, or is it natural even for those whose Spanish grammar is otherwise bad at times?


I think they would understand, and as others have said in my experience the Spanish are very tolerant of people making errors and would be pleased you were trying. However...it is a large part of the language and really would "clunk" for the Spanish people you were talking to. I have a colleague who speaks fair English, but when he gets tired he starts putting "s" on every verb form. "I needs gets the report for tomorrow" - understandable but very off-putting if you're having a conversation with him! I think the effect would be similar of using the indicative where the subjunctive is needed.


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## Residente Calle 13

Outsider said:
			
		

> No problems, but sometimes differences of opinion...?



Actually, Outsider, those are very rare. When to use the subjunctive is one of the issues of Spanish that is almost the same everywhere.


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## vince

AnotherStephen said:
			
		

> Hi.
> 
> I am slowly trying "to get to grips" with the Spanish subjunctive. The problem for me is as much the whole new set of endings to get into my thick head, as it is when it is right to use the subjunctive. I actually gave up on the subjunctive for a while (not more endings to learn!) but I am having another go.


What I learned to maintain my sanity while trying to master the subjunctive is to not worry about "understanding" it. Unlike imperfect vs. perfect, or por vs. para, there is no clear, logical subjunctive concept that lets you predict the correct usage of the subjunctive 100% of the time. The proof is that many languages have the subjunctive, which is also described as "used for situations of doubt, surprise, fear, opinion, possibility, probability", but some use them in a certain expression, and some don't in the exact same corresponding expression.

What I took to doing is I just keep in the back of my head that in general, the subjunctive appears "for situations of doubt, surprise, fear, opinion, possibility, probability". Then when I encounter phrases that use the subjunctive, I write them down and memorize them.


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## AnotherStephen

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> The hard part, I think, about the subjunctive is not memorizing the endings (there are tricks that help you learn them faster) but knowing just when to use it.



I haven't come across these tricks in my books, and I have bought a zillion books. 

I sometimes think my head can only hold so many tense endings. I think I'm on top of the indicative but  then there's the subjunctive and the imperative...

Another problem I had was that my first book did not have the 2nd person singular or plural. It made things easier at first but then I decided I must know the 2nd person as well. That was a load more endings.


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## Between2mindsGeor

Hi AnotherStephen!
I'm Spanish and as such, I'd say i can understand non-spanish speakers if they can't use the subjunctive form. I've got a German teacher who speaks almost perfect Spanish but always misses when she needs to produce the Subjunctive form of any verb!!
I was taught that form when I was eight, and even if I heard it since I was born, I still had to learn it at school.
A clue I was given then to be able to produce the subj. was to use "que" before the verb, as in:
QUE yo coma,
QUE tu comas,
QUE él coma....

Try using "Yo quiero QUE"...
él VAYA
ellos VENGAN
...

Hope it helps!!

P.S.: I agree with Residente, if someone thinks you're a jerk because you make a mistake in Spanish, then that person IS a jerk. I'm always glad to listen to Dutch, German or British speaking Spanish as it means they're making an effort to speak my language and are not expecting me to speak theirs.


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## Residente Calle 13

AnotherStephen said:
			
		

> I haven't come across these tricks in my books, and I have bought a zillion books.
> 
> I sometimes think my head can only hold so many tense endings. I think I'm on top of the indicative but  then there's the subjunctive and the imperative...
> 
> Another problem I had was that my first book did not have the 2nd person singular or plural. It made things easier at first but then I decided I must know the 2nd person as well. That was a load more endings.



Your head can hold so many endings! Our languages, Spanish and English, are very simple compared to some other language that have 100 times as many endings. Don't worry about your brain exploding. With time, you will _get _the endings.


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## Outsider

Between2mindsGeor said:
			
		

> A clue I was given then to be able to produce the subj. was to use "que" before the verb, as in:
> QUE yo coma,
> QUE tu comas,
> QUE él coma....
> 
> Try using "Yo quiero QUE"...
> él VAYA
> ellos VENGAN
> ...
> 
> Hope it helps!!


A useful rule for native speakers, but I doubt that it means much to those who learn Spanish as a second language, and don't have the subjunctive internalized yet.


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## timpeac

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> Your head can hold so many endings! Our languages, Spanish and English, are very simple compared to some other language that have 100 times as many endings. Don't worry about your brain exploding. With time, you will _get _the endings.


Yes - I agree. It may seem like a huge task now but you will get there. Verbs and endings are one of the horrible "chore" bits of language. There is no better way (in my experience) than just sitting down and writing out verbs of all endings until you do not even have to employ the higher parts of you brain to get the right verb ending. If you can get to the point where someone could say to you "they will have gone!" and you immediately reply with the correct verb form then that will really help your fluency. You will then find it so much easier to speak the language with that solid skeleton in place, leaving your brain free to think of the words you are going to use without wasting time searching for the right verb ending.


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## Outsider

AnotherStephen said:
			
		

> I haven't come across these tricks in my books, and I have bought a zillion books.


For example, in the first conjugation (verbs with infinitives in _-ar_), you can make the present subjunctive from the 1st. person sing. present indicative, by changing the _-o_ to an _-e_:

indicative

hablo, hablas, habla...

subjunctive

hable, hables, hable...

This doesn't let your memory completely off the hook, though. You can't stop and "compute" the ending every time you need it. You have to know it.


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## cyanista

Outsider said:
			
		

> For example, in the first conjugation (verbs with infinitives in _-ar_), you can make the present subjunctive from the 1st. person sing. present indicative, by changing the _-o_ to an _-a (surely a typo)_:



Presente Subjuntivo of regular verbs is actually easy: as if the verbs would pretend to be of another conjugation. The verbs of the first conjugation get the endings of the second (in Presente Indicativo). And the second and third conjugation employs the endings of the first. The only difference is in the 1st person singular - it becomes identical with 3rd person sg.

*Hablar
*hablo hable
hablas hables
habla hable
hablamos hablemos
habláis habléis
hablan hablen

*Vivir
*vivo viva
vives vivas
vive viva
vivimos vivamos
vivís viváis
viven vivan

But conjugating irregular verbs you have to remember what Outsider said because you have to change the root.


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## Mgerman

It's not common to see "rioplatenses" speaking in any future of subjuntive, but in the other times it is very common. Of course, there will be always people that doesn't speak properly their own mother tongue. Also, her in Uruguay, where the alphabetism is over 99%. 
Spanish speakers understand learner's spanish, definitively much better than english speakers. So, never care about other peopleo thoughts, because every person of the world is a learner of something and nobody is perfect, the mistakes make sense to life.


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## Sidd

I don't understand how are you going to "leave out" the subjuntive. 
For instance, how would you say "He asked me to go" "¿Me pidió que ir?" 

I mean, if you tell us how do you usually leave the subjunctive out (which verb form do you use instead) we'll know how weird it sounds or if it can be understood or not.


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## Keikikoka

The first time I went to Mexico, I was about 4 months into spanish 2. We did the present indicative in 1 and we were working on the differences between preterite and imperfect. I didn't know anything about perfect tenses, the future, conditional, or subjunctive. I still got along fine because I made the effort to try and use everything I knew, even if it wasn't that much. 

However, you say you want to come to grips with the subjunctive which means you should use it whenever you realize it should be there. If you never use it, you will never master it.


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## Outsider

Sidd said:
			
		

> I don't understand how are you going to "leave out" the subjuntive.
> For instance, how would you say "He asked me to go" "¿Me pidió que ir?"


Instead of saying "Me pidió que fuera", you can say "*Me pidió que iba". It's incorrect, but I think it would be understood.


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## Residente Calle 13

Outsider said:
			
		

> Instead of saying "Me pidió que fuera", you can say "*Me pidió que iba". It's incorrect, but I think it would be understood.


I don't think it would be. 

Take these two sentences:

*Me dijo que iba.

Me dijo que fuera.*

You can't substitute one for the other and get a sentence that makes the sense you want it to have.


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## Outsider

With the caveat that we're talking about ungrammatical sentences, you would of course have to make some adjustements. For example, make the subject explicit:

_Me dijo que él iba.

*Me dijo que yo iba.
_
Clear enough...

Or you could use an infinitive clause instead of the subjunctive clause (I think):

_Me dijo para [yo] ir.
_


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## Residente Calle 13

Outsider said:
			
		

> With the caveat that we're talking about ungrammatical sentences, you would of course have to make some adjustements. For example, make the subject explicit:
> 
> _Me dijo que él iba.
> 
> *Me dijo que yo iba.
> _
> Clear enough...
> 
> Or you could use an infinitive clause instead of the subjunctive clause (I think):
> 
> _Me dijo para [yo] ir.
> _


The thing is, "me dijo que yo iba" is not, as far as I know, ungrammatical Spanish.


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## vince

but doesn't "me dijo que yo iba" mean "He told me I was going"
whereas "me dijo que yo fuera" means "He told me to go"
?


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## Outsider

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> The thing is, "me dijo que yo iba" is not, as far as I know, ungrammatical Spanish.


I meant that it doesn't have the meaning I've attached to it. But you have a point: the pseudo-sentence would be ambiguous. Yes, it could be a prediction, rather than a command. But, in practice, the context would have a lot more information which should make it clear whether the speaker was talking about a prediction, or about a command.

Having said this, I'm feeling bad about writing sentences with bad grammar in this thread.  

I do _not_ advise *AnotherStephen* to try to replace the subjunctive with the indicative. There are so many tenses in both that he would only get confused. Just do the best you can to use the subjunctive, and don't be afraid to make mistakes.


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## Residente Calle 13

Outsider said:
			
		

> Having said this, I'm feeling bad about writing sentences with bad grammar in this thread.
> 
> I do _not_ advise *AnotherStephen* to try to replace the subjunctive with the indicative. There are so many tenses in both that he would only get confused. Just do the best you can to use the subjunctive, and don't be afraid to make mistakes.



Well, you kind of have to in order to show what's not grammatical. This subjunctive this really hard to explain so I think you are allowed A LOT of license, my friend!


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## AnotherStephen

Sidd said:
			
		

> I don't understand how are you going to "leave out" the subjuntive.
> For instance, how would you say "He asked me to go" "¿Me pidió que ir?"
> 
> I mean, if you tell us how do you usually leave the subjunctive out (which verb form do you use instead) we'll know how weird it sounds or if it can be understood or not.



My effort might be something like your example. The thing is I have put enough work in to know that was probably wrong. 

I suppose I would find it even harder to open my mouth and start speaking in Spanish in Spain, if I knew that what I was about to say was incorrect but didn't know how to say it correctly.

That doesn't leave me with any choice but to keep going and try to get these endings. The odd thing is in the 2 years I have been learning Spanish I have managed to build a reasonable vocabulary. I think I'm up to about 3 1/2 to 4 thousand words. I find learning nouns, adjectives, etc not too hard. For some reason I find learning the verb endings much more difficult.


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## Sidd

I'm spanish and I'm very open to people trying in my language. But I have to understand them to be able to help. 

In this case, for me, the only way of leaving out the subjuntive and still be understood would be "_Me dijo para yo ir_" It is really incorrect, but I would understand the meaning. I would also understand "Me dijo que yo ir". 

So I guess if you want to jump into it you could start with sentences with "que yo+infinitive" it is not correct, but you would be understood. However this is just the lesser bad, you should try to use the subjunctive until you master it. That's the right way.


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## AnotherStephen

I think some of my difficulty with the subjunctive endings is its similarity to the imperative. Books say the imperative is like the Present Subjunctive and that makes it easier to learn. Well not really. Those pesky irregular imperatives don't help at all.

Perhaps it should be the imperative I drop all together.

After all I can't imagine I am ever going to tell a Spaniard to Run! Stop! Eat your greens! etc.

Have any WordReference Forums members whose first language is not Spanish ever demanded something in Spanish using the imperative? I don't mean just in the classroom situation.


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## timpeac

AnotherStephen said:
			
		

> I think some of my difficulty with the subjunctive endings is its similarity to the imperative. Books say the imperative is like the Present Subjunctive and that makes it easier to learn. Well not really. Those pesky irregular imperatives don't help at all.
> 
> Perhaps it should be the imperative I drop all together.
> 
> After all I can't imagine I am ever going to tell a Spaniard to Run! Stop! Eat your greens! etc.
> 
> Have any WordReference Forums members whose first language is not Spanish ever demanded something in Spanish using the imperative? I don't mean just in the classroom situation.


Don't put my bags on the plane to Paris! I'm going to Gatwick!


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## AnotherStephen

timpeac said:
			
		

> Don't put my bags on the plane to Paris! I'm going to Gatwick!



*timpeac* Your details say you have lived/are living in Spain. That is the only time you used the Spanish imperative?


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## timpeac

AnotherStephen said:
			
		

> *timpeac* Your details say you have lived/are living in Spain. That is the only time you used the Spanish imperative?


No, no - it was meant to be a jokey phrase showing how common the imperative is. I think (and I stand to be corrected!!) that the Spanish use the imperative more than the English. You could say to a waiter "tráigame...." "bring me....", in a shop "deme dos kilos de..." "give me two kilos of..." or then there's the phone "dígame" "tell me" but plenty more. The bus goes past your stop "stop please!" etc etc.

You might be feeling overwhelmed at the moment but chip away at these points of learning a language and you'll get there. I don't think there is going to be any major part of the language that you can suggest that people are going to say "hmm, yes I only need that twice a year you can forget that...".


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## zebedee

I'm afraid the imperative is used veeeeery much if you're living in Spain - or for that rate any Spanish speaking country I would imagine.

Think about any time you go to a restaurant, bakery, butchers, greengrocers, shop etc and want to order something.

Póngame un café con leche. Gracias.
Déme cambio de este billete, por favor.
Córteme 10 lonchas de jamón, por favor.

Or you want to invite someone to your place:

Venid a mi casa el miércoles a las 19:00

The imperative is actually used a lot more in Spanish than in English so you'd do well to learn it. It's really not that difficult, just a question of practice.

EDIT: I've just seen Tim's been quicker than I was in saying the same thing!


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## houstonreadhead

Hello Stephen,

Don't despair too much. I understand what you're saying as I've been there myself. However, once you get to Spain and are using the language meaningfully and often you'll be shocked at the complex structures that fly out of your mouth from seemingly nowhere in few weeks' time. Spanish is so much fun to (try to) speak and learn, I hope you don't spend too much energy fretting over using the subjuctive perfectly as it will come to you through practice! 

Scott


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## Outsider

AnotherStephen said:
			
		

> I think some of my difficulty with the subjunctive endings is its similarity to the imperative. Books say the imperative is like the Present Subjunctive and that makes it easier to learn. Well not really. Those pesky irregular imperatives don't help at all.


What do you mean by "irregular imperatives"?


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## jinti

I think that what's worse than getting the subjunctive wrong is staying silent for fear of making a mistake. 

You may occasionally say something you don't mean, or confuse your listener -- we've all done that (and heck, I manage to do it in my native language, so why not in a foreign language, too?) But so what? They'll stare at you blankly, you'll rephrase, and life will go on like that until the subjunctive starts coming naturally to your mind. And with enough exposure, it will. (I mean, really, that's how native Spanish speakers learned it: exposure.)

One way that I learn languages is by learning phrases that really do come up in everyday life. I picture myself in a situation and reach for a phrase that I need.... And then later that day, when I really AM in that situation, I use the phrase. Doing this repeatedly over the long run helps me get a "feel" for the language more than lists of grammatical endings do, and it also gives me truly useful phrases on which I can later base my guesses about how to say other things.


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## AnotherStephen

Outsider said:
			
		

> What do you mean by "irregular imperatives"?



I was thinking of things such as pon, haz and a number of others in the 2nd person singular. Enough to throw me, anyway, although I don't know why because _eventually_, after many months I did get the endings for the indicative.


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## Outsider

Well, the vebs _poner_ and _hacer_ are  generally irregular. There isn't much that can be done about it. I thought you might have got confused between imperatives proper, and those imperatives that coincide with the present subjunctive.


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## Residente Calle 13

AnotherStephen said:
			
		

> I was thinking of things such as pon, haz and a number of others in the 2nd person singular. Enough to throw me, anyway, although I don't know why because _eventually_, after many months I did get the endings for the indicative.


If it makes you feel any better, the most irregular forms tend to be the ones you use the most so you get more chances to practice them.


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