# Hana wa tēburu no ue ni arimasu.



## q_006

Hana *wa* te-buru no ue ni arimasu. 

It's translated as: The flowers are on the table. 

I always that the sentence should be this:

Hana *ga* te-buru no ue ni arimasu.

Though from what I know, the translatation is: There are flowers on the table.

Is the first sentence correct? And normally used that way?


----------



## Yoshiee

Hi

In a first glance, they are interchangeable and both are very correct.

However if you want to know how to use Ha or Ga in place possibly, that is a little difficult one.


----------



## q_006

Well I learned something new. I've honestly never seen *wa* and *arimasu* together like that.


----------



## Yoshiee

Hi

THe wa + arimasu is very normal to use.

The context is like below for that:

1) Questioner: Where is the flowers you bought yesterday?
2) Questionee: The flowers are on the table. But I have not put it in the blue vase yet. (sono hana *ha* (not ga) te-buruno ue ni arimasu.............)

There are several cases using the pattern of ha+*+arimasu. I think a particular case is like the above, when you are answering a question.

On the other hand, the ga+*+arimasu case is:
3) There are some flowers on the table but who brought it? (te-buru ni hana *ga *arimasu..........)
4) It's me!

It seems to be the similar relationship between *a *flowerand* the *flower in English, I believe.


----------



## Ilmen

What's the difference between が and は? What a great question. ♪

In Japanese, there is three particles to indicate the subject(s) of a sentence: は, も and が. There is a rough definition of them:
• は is the topic marker, that specifie the thing we talk about, generally something known by the two speakers.
• も is the inclusive topic marker, that is very similar to は, but with the additional meaning of "also".
• が is the identifier particle, that introduce a new subject, something unspecified.

For instance:

青い花*が*ここにあります。 Here are blue flowers. _(These blue flowers are a thing the listener didn't noticed, they are a new object so they are identified with が)._
赤い花*は*このテイブルの上にありますよ。 *About* the red flowers (we talked about), they are on this table, you know.
ゼラニウム*も*あります。 *About* geraniums, they are (there) *too*.
I hope I didn't make any mistake. 

There is an interesting link to understand the differences between these three particles:
http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/grammar/particlesintro

Enjoy.


----------



## fitter.happier

Ilmen said:


> 青い花*が*ここにあります。 Here are blue flowers. _(These blue flowers are a thing the listener didn't noticed, they are a new object so they are identified with が)._
> 赤い花*は*このテイブル*テーブル*の上にありますよ。 *About* the red flowers (we talked about), they are on this table, you know.
> ゼラニウム*も*あります。 *About* geraniums, they are (there) *too*.



That is correct.

I would like to point out that は also has a contrastive function.

Compare:

韓国へ*は*行きたくないです。 I don't want to go to Korea (but I may want to go somewhere else).
韓国へ行きたくないです。I don't want to go to Korea.


この町に映画館*は*ありません。　There are no movie theaters in this town (but there is something else)


----------



## Ilmen

That's right. I didn't want to write an exhausitve definition, but I thought to indicate that the use of は implies the suject is part of a set or group, that we talk about a thing regarding specifically our subject but not his whole set or group.
For instance, to say 「この木はとても高いです」 implies there is other trees, but it does not necessarily mean the others are not high: you can also say later 「その木もですね」 (this one too, it isn't?).

And, sorry for the "テイブル", I didn't noticed my error. ^^"
*
*


----------



## divisortheory

It helps sometimes to think of *wa* as being english "the" and *ga* as being english "a".

A book is on the table.
The book is on the table.

Both are perfectly fine sentences, and each has a slightly different meaning.  Similarly, 

Hon ga tēburu no ue ni arimasu.
Hon wa tēburu no ue ni arimasu.

are both fine as well, and have the corresponding English meanings above.  

Note that this is only one possible difference between *wa* and *ga*.  You will learn more as you get further in studying Japanese.


----------



## Strutter

Oh, I'm surprised to find a person who has the same feeling. Actually, I have a feeling that the relationship between は-が is somewhat similar to the relationship between a-the. That sentiment appeared in my mind while I've been studying English. Interesting!


----------



## almostfreebird

You say "sono hon wa tēburu no ue ni arimasu(it's on the table)" when you are asked "sono hon wa dokoni arimasuka(where is the book?)"

When you say "hon ga tēburu no ue ni arimasu" or "hon ga tēburu no ue ni aru",
I can imagine two or three situations:

(1) You are lecturing in front of audience and say "hon ga tēburu no ue ni arimasu(There is a book on the desk)", then you say "I'm going to erase the book" as if you are a magician or psychokinetic person.

(2) you are monologuing "hon ga tēburu no ue ni aru, sono tonarini chide yogoreta naifuga aru. Ittái dôiu kotónanda!(There is a book on the desk and a knife stained with blood　next to it, what the phuck is going on here?)"

I remember similar thread: http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...om+　けれどもあの寿司屋は汚いから行きたくないんだ&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk


----------



## divisortheory

Strutter said:


> Oh, I'm surprised to find a person who has the same feeling. Actually, I have a feeling that the relationship between は-が is somewhat similar to the relationship between a-the. That sentiment appeared in my mind while I've been studying English. Interesting!



Heh, I was actually surprised they don't teach this relationship in any book or class.  In books they always say "ga is used to introduce a new topic of discussion into the conversation.   wa, on the other hand, is used for talking about something that the listener is already familiar with".   That's a very long winded way of saying "ga=a, wa=the".  It took me a couple of years before I finally stumbled upon that relationship on my own, lol.


I actually have a related question now that I'm thinking about a/the.  Which of the following two conversations sounds better (Ignore the fact that the situation is a little contrived):

山本：ああ、すみません、この部屋に本がありますか。
田中：はい、あのテーブルの上に本があると思います。
（山本さんはテーブルに行って来ます。）
山本：じゃあ、本はありました。ありがとう。


山本：ああ、すみません、この部屋に本がありますか。
田中：はい、本はあのテーブルの上にあると思います。
（山本さんはテーブルに行って来ます。）
山本：じゃあ、本はありました。ありがとう。

The only difference is in 田中さん's sentence.  (Conversation 1 is が→が→は, Conversation 2 is が→は→は)
I'm almost certain conversation 1 sounds better, but I've never really given much thought to this situation.  Just checking


----------



## almostfreebird

Where Have All the Flowers Gone?

花はどこへ行った


----------



## Yoshiee

Hi

I would like to vote the same as you. This is not because the ga and wa positionings but because answering where the books are first.

However both are almost same to me, nothing strange and different so much.

What more interesting( eliminating ga and wa is also OK in a real conversation):



> 山本：ああ、すみません、この部屋に本,ありますか。
> 田中：はい、あのテーブルの上に本,あると思います。
> （山本さんはテーブルに行ってきます。）
> 山本：じゃあ、あ！本,ありました。ありがとう。


 
This is a little exagerated but in the real conversation, Japanese people sometimes and naturally make it like that, as you can hear.


----------



## Flaminius

divisortheory said:


> In books they always say "ga is used to introduce a new topic of discussion into the conversation.   wa, on the other hand, is used for talking about something that the listener is already familiar with".   That's a very long winded way of saying "ga=a, wa=the".


The Japanese _-wa_ and _-ga_ often match the English _the_ and _a_ but it's not always the case.  In fact, it is somewhat misleading to rely on a grammatical category (definiteness) that plays little role in the Japanese grammar.

This sentence that opened your example skit is wrong in Japanese:
山本：ああ、すみません、この部屋に本がありますか。
I believe you used _-ga_ to indicate indefiniteness of the books in the room because the speaker has no knowledge of what they are.

In fact, 本 should either be unmodified or take _-wa_. In this sentence _-ga_ makes the speaker sound as if he expects no books at all.  In contrast, _-wa_ expects one or more books in the room.  The explanation I like is that a _wa_-marked noun deals with a category.  The sentence 本はありますか holds true if at least one object in the room belongs to BOOK-category.  If there are a few more BOOK-objects, it's still fine.  [Very literally, "Do you have books?" may be answered by "No" if there is only one book.  No one does so because other forces are at work; such as the ones of pragmatics.]  In contrast, _-ga_ deals with an instance or instances of a category.

I don't pretend that category vs. instance is the only distinction between _-wa_ and _-ga_.  Other functions of the postpositions, however, seem to be closely related to this distinction, which I suspect is the basic one.


----------



## divisortheory

Flaminius said:


> The Japanese _-wa_ and _-ga_ often match the English _the_ and _a_ but it's not always the case.  In fact, it is somewhat misleading to rely on a grammatical category (definiteness) that plays little role in the Japanese grammar.
> 
> This sentence that opened your example skit is wrong in Japanese:
> 山本：ああ、すみません、この部屋に本がありますか。
> I believe you used _-ga_ to indicate indefiniteness of the books in the room because the speaker has no knowledge of what they are.  In fact, 本 should either be unmodified or take _-wa_. In this sentence _-ga_ makes the speaker sound as if he expects no books at all.



I couldn't think of a better example (admittedly I probably didn't try hard enough), but when I created the scenario I imagined a guy walking into a room and for no apparent reason, blindly asking if there happen to be any books there.  So I guess we're agreeing, the speaker did not necessarily expect there to be any books, even though it's kind of a silly situation.


----------



## Flaminius

Perhaps I should have used an overstatement for describing 本がありますか.  It sounds as if the speaker thinks it is surprising if there were even one book in the room (What do I expect?  Living in a room without a book is very becoming of an uneducated low-life like you.. yadda yadda....).  An unmarked speech goes 本はありますか.

I hope you don't mind if I change the scene to give a more concrete context.  Imagine someone being invited to a lepidopterist's house.  The host shows all his collections to the guest.  He asks if he has a Nymphalidae Paranatica sita specimen:
アサギマダラの標本はありますか。

Or a customer in a traditional fast food joint in Tokyo:
天ぷらそばはありますか。

Or a taxi driver to the passenger as he gets out:
忘れ物はありませんか。


----------



## divisortheory

Yea, I see your point.  Sweeping generalizations are bad  

Upon first reading those I made the a/the comparison and it's obvious that the (which I compared to は) is not the correct choice.  But what's curious is that I would not translate any of those into English "a" either, but rather English "any"

Do you have any Nymphalidae Paranatica specimens?
Do you have (any) Tempura Soba?  (*)
Did you leave anything?

In (*) I might leave it out entirely, but it sounds ok either way.  

Anyway, the point of this is that definitely は does not always translate to *the* and が does not always translate to *a*.  But I do think *the* always translates to は.  I was about to say that I thought *a* might always translate to が but I thought of an easy counterxample.   

A confronts B on the street
A:　すみません。　この辺に本スーパーがありますか。
B:　いいえ、ありません。
A:　じゃあ、コンビにはありますか。


----------



## Strutter

divisortheory said:


> But I do think *the* always translates to は.



I don't think ALWAYS. For instance,　(honestly, I don't like explaining something by using translations though,)

Where's the bike?
バイク*は*どこだ？ (Yes, バイク*が*どこだ？ is strange.)

・・・

We need it (or the bike)! Get it back!
それ*が*(or　そのバイク*が)*必要なんだよ・・・

It's true you can also say "そのバイク*は*必要なんだ", but I still like "そのバイク*が*・・・"

Or, "The following information might be helpful to you."

以下の情報*は*あなたにとって・・・
以下の情報*が*あなたにとって・・・

You could translate it to both.


----------



## almostfreebird

Example:

So what?
それがどうしたって言うの？

それはどうしたって言うの？(sounds weird.)


----------



## Flaminius

divisortheory said:


> But what's curious is that I would not translate any of those into English "a" either, but rather English "any"


Right.  I was credulous enough to concoct an ontological gerrymandering :


Flaminius said:


> He asks if he has *any* Nymphalidae Paranatica sita specimen*s*


Come to think of it, English nouns take complicated articles and article-like devices.  They can be in either singular or plural, they can be modified by definite, indefinite articles or no articles at all; or they can take _some_ and _any_ and the last ones have different connotations in the affirmative and the negative sentences.  Brrr....



> But I do think *the* always translates to は.


A major function of _-wa_ other than definiteness is category as we have discussed.  As a matter of fact, plural definite nouns in English are often used in this sense.  Just an idea to reinforce your hypothesis.



> I was about to say that I thought *a* might always translate to が but I thought of an easy counterxample.
> 
> A confronts B on the street
> A:　すみません*。*この辺にスーパー*は*ありますか。* (no space after a Japanese period)*
> B:　いいえ、ありません。
> A:　じゃあ、コンビ*ニ*はありますか。


I'd mark both スーパー and コンビニ by _-wa_.  The speaker merely issues two questions; each checking the existence of objects belonging to a category.



Strutter said:


> We need it (or the bike)! Get it back!
> それ*が*(or　そのバイク*が)*必要なんだよ・・・


Like you do, I prefers this to:
*そのバイク*は*必要なんだ

I think we should set this aside because definiteness is not marked by _-ga _but by demonstratives それ and その.  In fact, the function of _-ga_ here is to mark the modified noun as the complement for the adjective 必要だ.  [I think I discussed the notion of adjectival complements in December but I cannot seem to find it now.]

Any which way, I think the discussion should not apply to nouns that are definite by other means than postpositions.


----------



## Yoshiee

Hi, all

I think the following sentence is still OK to me, not strange:



> A:　すみません。　この辺に本スーパー*が*ありますか。
> B:　いいえ、ありません。
> A:　じゃあ、コンビに*は*ありますか。


 
I can't see any strange and of-course, using は for both senteses are perfect.

The below previos commnets therefore, i believe, is  "basically" right at least not wrong:



> Anyway, the point of this is that definitely は does not always translate to *the* and が does not always translate to *a*. But I do think *the* always translates to は. I was about to say that I thought *a* might always translate to が but I thought of an easy counterxample.


----------



## Strutter

By the way, off the top of my head,



q_006 said:


> Hana *wa* te-buru no ue ni arimasu.



The flowers are on the table.



q_006 said:


> Hana *ga* te-buru no ue ni arimasu.



There are flowers on the table.


----------



## Yoshiee

Yah, That's true. There is the same commnet in my previos post #4, anyway.

Yoshiee


----------

