# "each accent sounds unique"



## Xenophanes

Здравствуйте! Я хотел бы задать вам вопросы. Я хотел сказать, "Each accent sounds unique." 
And I sank, suddenly humbled by (what in English) passes for a simple sentence. I tripped up in a couple places:

- каколй глагол, sounds? Возвратный?
- a friend of mine once told me that I shouldn't use акцент to refer to someone's accent, since it may have a negative connotation...? In this particular case of mine, I was talking about accents of American english in general.
- Since I mentioned Accent in a previous sentence, is it possible to just say Каждый instead of каждый акцент?

Спасибо!


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## Awwal12

> - каколй глагол, sounds? Возвратный?


The verb "звучать" isn't reflexive, it is a common intransitive verb. )


> a friend of mine once told me that I shouldn't use акцент to refer to someone's accent, since it may have a negative connotation...? In this particular case of mine, I was talking about accents of American english in general.


The word "акцент" is usually used mainly when speaking about foreign accents. You don't need to use it when you describe different regional (*?*) or personal (*?*) pronunciations in American English. It is possible, of course, but may sound strange a bit. And, in fact, everything depends on what an accent did you mean actually.


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## Katya34

Акцент is neutral word by itself. Probably your friend told you so because in Russia it's not good to speak with accent especially suburban. Unlike in the U.S. we in Russia have one standard way of speaking Russian.
I think good translations are:
Каждый акцент уникален.
Каждый акцент звучит по-разному.


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## Maroseika

Говор seems to be more precise term for the Russian 'accents' if you mean accents of the Russian natives from the different regions, such as: рязанский, уральский, южный, вологодский говоры, etc.
But for the foreign accents акцент is quite normal and neutral. However the very phrase "Each accent sounds unique" seems to me a bit weird, because if an accent is a peculiarity of pronunciation, how can accents not sound unique?


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## Xenophanes

Спасибо всем!


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## Dmitry_86

Xenophanes said:


> Здравствуйте! Я хотел бы задать вам вопросы. Я хотел сказать, "Each accent sounds unique."
> And I sank, suddenly humbled by (what in English) passes for a simple sentence. I tripped up in a couple places:
> 
> - каколй глагол, sounds? Возвратный?
> - a friend of mine once told me that I shouldn't use акцент to refer to someone's accent, since it may have a negative connotation...? In this particular case of mine, I was talking about accents of American english in general.
> - Since I mentioned Accent in a previous sentence, is it possible to just say Каждый instead of каждый акцент?
> 
> Спасибо!



As regards the word "accent" I do not see anything insulting in it if we take it generally. You see, many words may prove offensive or embarassing when one intends them to make so. For example, speaking about one's nationality is generally avoided in public because there have been many cases when this matter caused the rise of hostility among people who have come from different countries and live together or whose appearances are not typical for the region where they live. But very often, however, people discuss some aspects of nationalities quite peacefully and with great interest for all of them. The same is with "accent". Sometimes we tend to humiliate and oppress those whose Russian is not ideal. As a result these people can feel embarassed and shun others. But generally I think that fortunately this problem does not exist in Russia on such a broad scale as some foreigners think. Moreover, as said before, the Russian language is practically the same throughout the whole country and despite its huge territory. I have been to Siberia and thew Far East and have not noticed anything mainly different. Seldom have I heard about people from some remote villages who have lived all their lives without communicating with others and their language may seem strange. But these are exceptions only, not a rule. 

So if you get on well with a person and know that they speak a somewhat different language it is possible that you ask them what their language is like. But only as a matter of interest without any attempts at showing your superiority.


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## cablino

Dmitry_86 said:


> As a result these people can feel embarassed and shun others. But generally I think that fortunately this problem does not exist in Russia on such a broad scale as some foreigners think.



I would disagree here. Speaking about Moscow and Saint-Petersburg; I have been laughed at many times for making mistakes by people in shops, cab drivers, strangers, and so on. There are a lot of people who are tolerant but I find that I was not as humiliated in most of the other countries I have been to.


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## Ptak

Dmitry_86 said:


> As regards the word "accent" I do not see anything insulting in it if we take it generally. You see, many words may prove offensive or embarassing when one intends them to make so. For example, speaking about one's nationality is generally avoided in public because there have been many cases when this matter caused the rise of hostility among people who have come from different countries and live together or whose appearances are not typical for the region where they live. But very often, however, people discuss some aspects of nationalities quite peacefully and with great interest for all of them. The same is with "accent". Sometimes we tend to humiliate and oppress those whose Russian is not ideal. As a result these people can feel embarassed and shun others. But generally I think that fortunately this problem does not exist in Russia on such a broad scale as some foreigners think. Moreover, as said before, the Russian language is practically the same throughout the whole country and despite its huge territory. I have been to Siberia and thew Far East and have not noticed anything mainly different. Seldom have I heard about people from some remote villages who have lived all their lives without communicating with others and their language may seem strange. But these are exceptions only, not a rule.
> 
> So if you get on well with a person and know that they speak a somewhat different language it is possible that you ask them what their language is like. But only as a matter of interest without any attempts at showing your superiority.


Dmitry, the very simple point is that in Russian, we use the word *акцент* when speaking about a foreign accent only. When talking about some regional Russian accents, we use the word *говор* in Russian. That's all.


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## Dmitry_86

cablino said:


> I would disagree here. Speaking about Moscow and Saint-Petersburg; I have been laughed at many times for making mistakes by people in shops, cab drivers, strangers, and so on. There are a lot of people who are tolerant but I find that I was not as humiliated in most of the other countries I have been to.



That is different. I was speaking about people WITHIN RUSSIA but who have come from different parts of it. Probably the Russian language here and, for example, in Krasnoyarsk (Siberia) are slightly different but nonetheless if I come to Kransnoyarsk from Saint-Petersburg hardly anyone will be able to recognize any difference. Unfortunately, the problem with foreigners still exist and I know about it.


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## Dmitry_86

Ptak said:


> Dmitry, the very simple point is that in Russian, we use the word *акцент* when speaking about a foreign accent only. When talking about some regional Russian accents, we use the word *говор* in Russian. That's all.



I cannot completely agree here. I have never heard the word "говор". Maybe "accent" is also used very rarely because Russian is the same almost everywhere as I have already said before. But "говор" sounds to me very strange.


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## Ptak

cablino said:


> I would disagree here. Speaking about Moscow and Saint-Petersburg; I have been laughed at many times for making mistakes by people in shops, cab drivers, strangers, and so on. There are a lot of people who are tolerant but I find that I was not as humiliated in most of the other countries I have been to.


That happened probably exactly because of the 'standardness' of Russian language and absence of true 'accents' in it; so incorrect Russian, especially spoken with the English accent, really sounds ugly and even incomprehensible sometimes.
However, I regret that you felt humiliated.


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## Ptak

Dmitry_86 said:


> I cannot completely agree here.


I knew it.



> I have never heard the word "говор".


How could that happen? 

Try to google this word.


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## Dmitry_86

Ptak said:


> How could that happen?
> 
> Try to google this word.



I do not need to search for this word - I believe you here. I just said that I have never heard it anywhere in spite of being to several Russian regions. Probably that is because - I am forced to reat once again - "accent" is not the best word to use with regard to Russian.


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## Katya34

Ptak said:


> Dmitry, the very simple point is that in Russian, we use the word *акцент* when speaking about a foreign accent only. When talking about some regional Russian accents, we use the word *говор* in Russian. That's all.


In colloquial speech акцент is widely used as говор. In my opinion it's not a mistake even though I know that gramota.ru thinks differently. And also if we are talking about accents in the U.S. I think such sentence as "Он говорил по-английски с сильным калифорнийским говором" sounds akward.


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## Awwal12

Well, I think, "с сильным калифорнийским выговором" or "с выраженным калифорнийским произношением" will do, won't it?


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## Ptak

Katya34 said:


> In colloquial speech акцент is widely used as говор.


It's not a question of wide or not wide usage. Of course they both are widely used. They only have different meanings in Russian. You say "английский акцент", but "костромской говор". Or does "костромской акцент" sound fine to you?



> I think such sentence as "Он говорил по-английски с сильным калифорнийским говором" sounds akward.


Of course I think the same. Why on Earth should we apply the word "говор" to foreign accents and dialects?


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## Katya34

Ptak said:


> Of course I think the same. Why on Earth should we apply the word "говор" to foreign accents and dialects?


Because to any U.S. resident californian accent is not foreign.


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## Ptak

Katya34 said:


> Because to any U.S. resident californian accent is not foreign.


U.S. residents would NEVER say "*Он говорил по-английски с сильным калифорнийским говором*" because they don't speak Russian. They usually do it in English.
Please be logical, otherwise the discussion could became totally senseless.


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## Awwal12

Bit logical relationships "Standard American English vs Californian dialect" and "Литературный русский vs костромской говор" are nevertheless equal. )


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## Katya34

Ptak said:


> *U.S. residents would NEVER sa*y "Он говорил по-английски с сильным калифорнийским говором" because they don't speak Russian. They usually do it in English.
> Please be logical, otherwise the discussion could became totally senseless.


Ha-ha-ha. So we should close this forum for foreigners since they don't speak Russian. Great logic.


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## Ptak

Katya34 said:


> Ha-ha-ha. So we should close this forum for foreigners since they don't speak Russian. Great logic.


Oh my God.
You said:
_I think such sentence as "Он говорил по-английски с сильным калифорнийским говором" sounds akward._
The phrase is in Russian (as well as the word "говор" is Russian).
I said I agreed with you and that I never tried apply the word "говор" to foreign accents and dialects like Californian one. "Говор" only works for *Russian* regional accents which I already wrote above. And then you're telling me that "to any U.S. resident californian accent is not foreign!" That is nothing new. But it is foreign from the Russian language point of view, i.e. the language in which the sentence "Он говорил по-английски с сильным калифорнийским *говором*" is written.


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## cablino

Ptak said:


> That happened probably exactly because of the 'standardness' of Russian language and absence of true 'accents' in it; so incorrect Russian, especially spoken with the English accent, really sounds ugly and even incomprehensible sometimes.
> However, I regret that you felt humiliated.




Thanks for your sorrows, but the women who disagree with you and actually think and American accent is cute cured my humiliation!

This may be a stretch, but one of my friends who played on a Kharkov basketball team often made fun of kids from Saint Petersburg when playing them in matches for their accents. This is possibly due to the fact it is separate countries or just young kids. But I may make that stretch in that many people in Kharkov speak Russian and do not hold bitterness as in some western parts. Just a fun fact.



On a more serious note, Акцент is for foreigner dialets and говор is for domestic Russian dialects?? I am trying to understand this but there is more argument than coming to some sort of an agreement on which means which.


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## Maroseika

cablino said:


> On a more serious note, Акцент is for foreigner dialets and говор is for domestic Russian dialects??



Говор:
- Своеобразное произношение, особенности речи. С нерусским говором (Ожегов). 
- Территориальный диалект, а также его местная разновидность (Ожегов).
- Наименьшая территориальная разновидность языка, местная разновидность территориального диалекта (Ефремова)

Акцент:
- Особенности выговора, свойственные говорящему не на своем родном языке. Говорить с южным, белорусским акцентом (Ожегов)
- Особый характер произношения, проявляющийся в отступлении от языковой нормы и свойственный носителям какого-либо языка или диалекта, говорящим не на родном языке (Ефремова).


As we can conclude from the dictionaries, in lingustics говор is used in regard of the native's regional peculiarities of speech, while акцент - in regard of the foreigners. Only the first Ozhegov's gloss shows that in the everyday speech говор may be in some case applied to the foreign accent. However I'm not sure waht exactly Ozhegov meant there. Не русский говор would rather mean "sounds of the foreign speech".
But as far as I could notice говор is never used out of the science in regard of the foreign sub-dialects.


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## Ptak

cablino said:


> On a more serious note, Акцент is for foreigner dialets and говор is for domestic Russian dialects?? I am trying to understand this but there is more argument than coming to some sort of an agreement on which means which.


*Акцент* is mostly used than you mean someone speak a language which is not his native. It is not necessaryly some foreign accent _in Russian_. You can say, "Этот человек говорил по-французски с итальянским акцентом" (That man spoke French with Italian accent).

*Говор* is used for domestic Russian dialects... or I'd rather say, domestic Russian _accents_ because dialects (meaning different grammar and vocabulary) don't actually exist in Russian. Some differences can only happen in pronunciation/intonation.

For foreigner dialects you can use *диалект* (if it's not only pronunciation), and also *акцент*, *выговор*, and *произношение*.


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## dec-sev

Awwal12 said:


> The word "акцент" is usually used mainly when speaking about foreign accents. You don't need to use it when you describe different regional (*?*) or personal (*?*) pronunciations in American English.


Я как-то общался на подобную тему с человеком из США. Мне прислали ссылку на видео на ютюбе и написали, что это видео демонстрирует  «a strong Southern accent». 


Ptak said:


> ...Or does "костромской акцент" sound fine to you?


Когда мне было лет 10, я провёл месяц летних каникул в пионерском лагере на ЮБК*. В нашем отряде было несколько человек из Москвы. Они произносили «ракушка» с ударением на «а» и сильно его растягивая, чем вызывали наши насмешки. Попросту говоря, мы их дразнили: «Я приехал из Масквы раакушки сабирать». Мы говорили, что москвичи *а*кают. 
Мы действительно используем слово «акцент» по отношению к иностранным языкам, но раз уж случилось так, что я уже почти два десятка лет живу на территории нэзалэжного государства, то могу с полным правом сказать, что некоторые из друзей моего детства говорили с сильным московским акцентом 
* Южный берег Крыма.


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## Ptak

dec-sev said:


> Я как-то общался на подобную тему с человеком из США. Мне прислали ссылку на видео на ютюбе и написали, что это видео демонстрирует  «a strong Southern accent».


dec-sev, "акцент" и "accent"  - это разные слова, и в русском и английском используются по-разному.


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## dec-sev

Ptak said:


> dec-sev, "акцент" и "accent"  - это разные слова, и в русском и английском используются по-разному.


Я не сторонник приведения ссылок из гугла в качестве доказательства, но тем не менее:

Специально для фильма Николас Кейдж научился говорить с нью-йоркским акцентом ? для этого актеру пришлось по 2 часа в день заниматься с преподавателем.

Он родом из Британии, но превосходно играет американского доктора Хауса с настоящим нью-йоркским акцентом.

Т.е., когда CNN вещает с нью-йоркским или калифорнийским акцентом, для жителя "консервативных" штатов этот человек воспринимается как чужой?

Во всех трёх случаях слово «акцент» употреблено в значении «говор» или, другими словами, о том, как говорят люди в разных регионах, но для которых английский является родным языком. 
Возможны два варианта: или слово «акцент» в данных случаях употреблено неправильно, или в современном русском языке наметилась тенденция к его употреблению в значении, в котором «accent» употребляется в английском:
1) the characteristic mode of pronunciation of a person or group, esp one that betrays social or geographical origin. (Collins dictionary)


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## Ptak

dec-sev said:


> Я не сторонник приведения ссылок из гугла в качестве доказательства, но тем не менее:
> 
> Специально для фильма Николас Кейдж научился говорить с нью-йоркским акцентом ? для этого актеру пришлось по 2 часа в день заниматься с преподавателем.
> 
> Он родом из Британии, но превосходно играет американского доктора Хауса с настоящим нью-йоркским акцентом.
> 
> Т.е., когда CNN вещает с нью-йоркским или калифорнийским акцентом, для жителя "консервативных" штатов этот человек воспринимается как чужой?
> 
> Во всех трёх случаях слово «акцент» употреблено в значении «говор» или, другими словами, о том, как говорят люди в разных регионах, но для которых английский является родным языком.
> Возможны два варианта: или слово «акцент» в данных случаях употреблено неправильно, или в современном русском языке наметилась тенденция к его употреблению в значении, в котором «accent» употребляется в английском:
> 1) the characteristic mode of pronunciation of a person or group, esp one that betrays social or geographical origin. (Collins dictionary)


Не понимаю, что в вашем посте и приведенных вами примерах противоречит моей точке зрения на употребление слов "акцент" или "говор" в русском языке. Да и собственно и "accent" в английском.
Я всего лишь хотела обратить ваше внимание, что не стоит воспринимать слова "акцент" и "accent" как одно и то же слово.


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## dec-sev

Ptak said:


> Не понимаю, что в вашем посте и приведенных вами примерах противоречит моей точке зрения на употребление слов "акцент" или "говор" в русском языке.


 Мой пост был ответом на вашу реплику о том, что ""акцент" и "accent" - это разные слова, и в русском и английском используются по-разному". Ссылки привёл для того, чтобы показать, что несмотря на то, что они используются по-разному, означают они одно и тоже , по крайней мере в обсуждаемом нами контексте (особенности произношения людей, живущих в определенном регионе). 
 Я не очень понимаю, что значит "используются по-разному". Естестевнно, "вологодский акцент" звучит несолько странно, и поэтому в данном случае лучше использовать "говор". Вы это имели ввиду?


Ptak said:


> Я всего лишь хотела обратить ваше внимание, что не стоит воспринимать слова "акцент" и "accent" как одно и то же слово.


Извините, но без примеров непонятно. Я также могу сказать, что не стоит воспринимать слова "dog" и "собака" как одно и то же слово.


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## Ptak

dec-sev said:


> Естестевнно, "вологодский акцент" звучит несолько странно, и поэтому в данном случае лучше использовать "говор". Вы это имели *в в*иду?


Да.



> Извините, но без примеров непонятно.


Вы сами только что выше привели пример. И до этого аналогичные примеры были в ветке.


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