# Persian/Iranian زر - zar, gold also old(?)



## PersoLatin

I came across زر - zar (gold) which according to 'google translate' also means old, but is this a secondary meaning, if not, is it _cognate with _PIE _*ǵérh₂onts _?



> Proto-Indo-European _*ǵérh₂onts_. Cognates include Sanskrit जरन्त (járanta), Old Armenian ծերուն(cerun), and Irish _géaraid_ (“champion”).


Also


> ծերուն (cerun), ծերունի (ceruni)
> 
> Hellenic: *géronts
> Ancient Greek: γέρων (gérōn, “old man”)
> 
> 
> Indo-Iranian:
> Indo-Aryan:
> Sanskrit: जरत् (járat)
> 
> Iranian: *zarant-[1]
> Alanic: *zarand
> → Ancient Greek: Ζάρανδος (Zárandos, “a name from Tanais”)
> Ossetian: зӕронд (zærond)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Messapic: [script needed] (deranθoa, /derant'uā/, “senate”, loc.sg.f.)


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## ahvalj

That's a different root: Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/ǵʰelh₃- - Wiktionary — Iranic has merged the outcomes of the plain and aspirated Proto-Indo-European series, so that both _*gʲ_ of "old" and _*gʲʰ_ of "yellow, green; gold" have coincided in the same consonant. The same with PIE _r_ and _l._


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## CyrusSH

About Persian you should consider z>d sound shift, so there is _daraniya_ for gold (compare to _daric_ "ancient Persiam gold coin") and _dirin_ for old.


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## PersoLatin

ahvalj said:


> That's a different root: Reconstructionroto-Indo-European/ǵʰelh₃- - Wiktionary — Iranic has merged the outcomes of the plain and aspirated Proto-Indo-European series, so that both _*gʲ_ of "old" and _*gʲʰ_ of "yellow, green; gold" have coincided in the same consonant. The same with PIE _r_ and _l._


So is the one meaning 'old', cognate _with _PIE _*ǵérh₂onts _?

BTW -  is produced because of : & P being next to one another.


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## ahvalj

Yes, it is. 

Or, perhaps, I am too fast. Will check tonight if nobody does it before…


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## PersoLatin

CyrusSH said:


> About Persian you should consider z>d sound shift, so there is _daraniya_ for gold (compare to _daric_ "ancient Persiam gold coin") and _dirin_ for old.


So dir/دیر was originally zir/زر/زیر, therefore three sound changes _gʲ_ >z>d?


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## Treaty

The etymology of _dīr_ (<ENP/MP _dēr_< MP _dagr_< OP _darga_ <PIE *_dlh1gʰo_) is already resolved in this thread. It can't be a WIr. _z>d_ because it is also with _d_ in Av. and Skt.


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## PersoLatin

Treaty said:


> The etymology of _dīr_ (<ENP/MP _dēr_< MP _dagr_< OP _darga_ <PIE *_dlh1gʰo_) is already resolved in this thread. It can't be a WIr. _z>d_ because it is also with _d_ in Av. and Skt.


A little confusing, I can't see the link between zar/زر and _dīr. _

Another question, is zar/زر, meaning old, productive in modern Persian?


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## CyrusSH

Treaty said:


> The etymology of _dīr_ (<ENP/MP _dēr_< MP _dagr_< OP _darga_ <PIE *_dlh1gʰo_) is already resolved in this thread. It can't be a WIr. _z>d_ because it is also with _d_ in Av. and Skt.



My posts were deleted there, you can read about it in this thread: Persian & Urdu: دیر؛ دیرین/دیرینہ


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## Treaty

PersoLatin said:


> A little confusing, I can't see the link between zar/زر and _dīr._


Because there is no link to see. I meant _zar _("old") has nothing to do with _dīr _("late"), etymologically.


PersoLatin said:


> Another question, is zar/زر, meaning old, productive in modern Persian?


Maybe it is a revival of the word. I don't know if it was ever used in Persian (it might have been used in Classical Persian: e.g., زال زر by Ferdowsi, if meaning "old Zal"). There are similar words like _zār _(helpless, weak) or _zarm_ (old; though a possible back formation from _zarmān_). It would be nice to find a clearer example whether in Persian or SW dialects, either with _z_ or _d_. MP had both _zarmān_ (the demon of old age) and _zarwān_ (old age; cf. Zurwan) but I don't know if they are native.


CyrusSH said:


> My posts were deleted there,


They are just your personal opinion.


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## CyrusSH

PersoLatin said:


> So is the one meaning 'old', cognate _with _PIE _*ǵérh₂onts _?



According to your link, from this proto-IE root in Iranian there is Ossetian _zærond_ which means "old, ancient, archaic".


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## ahvalj

I have found the following:

_Абаев ВИ · 1989 · Историко-этимологический словарь осетинского языка. Том IV∶ U–Z: _299 [my translation]


> zær | zæræ, zærwæ "old age"
> […]
> ~The Iranic base _*zar-,_ I.-E. _ǵer-_ "to become old, to grow decrepit" has numerous correspondences. Let us mention several of them: Persian _zar, zāl_ "old man", "old woman", _zarmān, zarbān_ "decrepit old man"



_Cheung J · 2007 · Etymological dictionary of the Iranian verb: _469–470:


> **zarH²* ‘to age, grow old’
> •AVESTAN: YAv. _zar-_ ‘to age, grow old’
> […]
> •MIDDLE PERSIAN: MMP _zrd_ ‘infirm (from old age)’ ⇨ DMMPP: 384a
> […]
> •NWIR: NP _zāl_ PN (in Shahn.), also ‘old (wo)man’
> […]
> ◊ This root has an impeccable IE etymology.
> •PIE _*ǵerH₂-_ ‘to age, grow old’   LIV: 165 f. | Pok.: 390 f.
> •IE COGNATES: Gr. ἐγήρα ‘became old’, Gr. γῆρας ‘old age’, Gr. γἐρων (m.) ‘old man’, Arm. _cer_ ‘old; old man’, OCS _sъ-zьrěti_ ‘to ripen’
> •REFERENCES: IIFL I: 413b; DKS: 346b; Abaev, Slovar’ IV: 304 f.; Werba 1997: 289 f.; NEVP: 103



_Beekes RSP · 2010 · Etymological dictionary of Greek: _269


> In its formation, γέρων is identical with Skt. _járant-, _Oss. _zærond _‘old (man)’. One may further compare Arm. _cer, -oy _‘old man’ (o-stem) and MoP _zar _‘id.’. Cf. ►γέρας, ►γήρας, ►γραῦς.



_Martirosyan HK · 2010 · Etymological dictionary of the Armenian inherited lexicon: _339


> *cer*, _o-_stem ‘old man; old’ (Bible+)
> […]
> ●ETYM Since Klaproth, Brosset and NHB, connected with Gr. _γέρων _‘old man’, etc., from _*ĝerH-_, cf. Skt. _jarⁱ _‘to age, grow old’, _járant- _‘old’, YAv. _zar- _‘id.’, Oss. _zærond _‘old’ [Hübschmann 1897: 452; HAB 2: 457-458; EWAia 1, 1992: 577-578; Cheung 2002: 254-255; 2007: 469-470].



By the way. As we know, Persian has striking particular similarities with the Germanic languages, so among tens of thousands of shared words there is the name _Karl,_ which contains the same root (_Orel VE · 2003 · A handbook of Germanic etymology: _210; _Kroonen G · 2013 · Etymological dictionary of Proto-Germanic: _285).


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## PersoLatin

^ Very comprehensive, many thanks ahvalj.


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## PersoLatin

ahvalj said:


> Persian _zar, zāl_ "old man", "old woman", _zarmān, zarbān_ "decrepit old man"


_zarmān, zarbān & zarwān_ for 'old man' exits in MP, also _azarmān_ for 'ageless'. There are many references to _zāl _with the sense of _old _in classical poetry, separate from _zāl dastān, _Rostam's father in Shahnamé (the name was given on the account of his age & white hair). I haven't found any references to zar/old man.



ahvalj said:


> By the way. As we know, Persian has striking particular similarities with the Germanic languages, so among tens of thousands of shared words there is the name _Karl,_ which


Are there 'tens of thousand of shared words'? Seems very high, unless I have misunderstood.


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## ahvalj

PersoLatin said:


> Are there 'tens of thousand of shared words'? Seems very high, unless I have misunderstood.


Summarizing examples from all the thousands of Cyrus' posts… That was my attempt of sarcasm, of course. Yet, _Karl_ is indeed from the same root.


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## PersoLatin

ahvalj said:


> Summarizing examples from all the thousands of Cyrus' posts…… That was my attempt of sarcasm


Oops, a slip-up for me, I'm partial to some sarcasm


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## CyrusSH

ahvalj said:


> By the way. As we know, Persian has striking particular similarities with the Germanic languages, so among tens of thousands of shared words there is the name _Karl,_ which contains the same root (_Orel VE · 2003 · A handbook of Germanic etymology: _210; _Kroonen G · 2013 · Etymological dictionary of Proto-Germanic: _285).



I wonder how proto-Germanic *_karaz_ which means "man, guy" can be related to it. More about it: karl - Wiktionary Swedish: "(male) member of a work force, employed to perform some particularly heavy or physically demanding job". I think you know what Old Persian _kara_ also meant:


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## ahvalj

CyrusSH said:


> I wonder how proto-Germanic *_karaz_ which means "man, guy" can be related to it. More about it: karl - Wiktionary Swedish: "(male) member of a work force, employed to perform some particularly heavy or physically demanding job". I think you know what Old Persian _kara_ also meant:


This diminutive _*-il-_ of the Wiktionary is not supported by any actually attested form: the words from all Germanic languages go back to _*kerlaz _or _*karlaz._ The _-i- _in the Finnish _karilas_ must be of Finnish provenance as this language doesn't allow the sequence _rl _(cp. the same reasons for _Carolus_ "Karl" and _Berolinum_ "Berlin" in Medieval Latin).
_
Kroonen G · 2013 · Etymological dictionary of Proto-Germanic:_ 285 explains the Germanic forms in the following way:


> The non-Germanic cognates point to an original _n-_ or _nt-_stem to the root _*ǵerh₂-_ 'to ripen', cf. Skt. _járati_ 'to age, grow old; to make old, decrepit' < _*gerh₂-e-;_ OCS _zьrěti,_ Ru. _zret'_ (_zréju_), SCr. _zrȅti_ 'to ripen' < _*ǵrh₂-eh₁-._ The Germanic evidence, on the other hand, is best derived from a thematicized _l_-stem with root ablaut, e.g. nom. _*ǵerh₂-ōl, _gen. _*ǵrh₂-l-ós,_ acc. _*ǵorh₂-él-m._


Thus, this _-l-_ is probably still Proto-Indo-European (cp. with the same suffix "apple": Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h₂ébōl - Wiktionary and "sun": Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/sóh₂wl̥ - Wiktionary).

The Persian _k_ from your example regularly corresponds to the Lithuanian _k_ and the Germanic _*x>h,_ so it is certainly a different root.


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## CyrusSH

ahvalj said:
			
		

> The Persian _k_ from your example regularly corresponds to the Lithuanian _k_ and the Germanic _*x>h,_ so it is certainly a different root.



In the first meaning (army), you are right but I'm referring to its second meaning (male worker), in Persian _kargar_ means "worker" but I don't know it can be related to the Old Persian word or not.


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## aruniyan

Is the Zar(gold) cognate with Sanskrit Svarna(gold)? if so, I do not think Svarna and Jara/JIr(old/decayed,wornout) related in Sanskrit.


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## ahvalj

aruniyan said:


> Is the Zar(gold) cognate with Sanskrit Svarna(gold)? if so, I do not think Svarna and Jara/JIr(old/decayed,wornout) related in Sanskrit.


No, _s(u)-_ is the prefix: Meaning, origin and history of the name Swarna ; see also: सु- - Wiktionary and वृणोति - Wiktionary


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## aruniyan

ahvalj said:


> No, _s(u)-_ is the prefix: Meaning, origin and history of the name Swarna ; see also: सु- - Wiktionary and वृणोति - Wiktionary


Yes got it,
*زر - zar* as i see here Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/ǵʰelh₃- - Wiktionary
its a different root.


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## CyrusSH

Middle Persian _guhl_ also means "gold, precious metal".





aruniyan said:


> Yes got it,
> *زر - zar* as i see here Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/ǵʰelh₃- - Wiktionary
> its a different root.



From the same proto-IE *ǵʰelh₃- which according to your link, means "to flourish", in the Middle Persian there is _guhl_ (_gohr_) which means "precious stone, shining stone" and "flower, flourish".


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## Treaty

MP _gōhr_< Parth. _gōhr _("lineage > essence, element > jewel") < OIr. *_gauθra _(> Bac. γωρο "family"; cf. Skt. _gotra _"lineage") ultimately from _go_/_gau _"cow" < PIE *_gʷou_.


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## CyrusSH

Treaty said:


> MP _gōhr_< Parth. _gōhr _("lineage > essence, element > jewel") < OIr. *_gauθra _(> Bac. γωρο "family"; cf. Skt. _gotra _"lineage") ultimately from _go_/_gau _"cow" < PIE *_gʷou_.



I think you really believe Iranian is a subgroup of Indian, or in another word Iranian culture is nothing but a continuation of the Indian culture, so you probably think that ancient Iranians also worshiped cows as gods and the protection of cows, _gotra_ (_go_ "cow" + _-tra_ "protecting"), was a principle in their culture!


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## Treaty

CyrusSH said:


> I think you really believe Iranian is a subgroup of Indian


First, It doesn't matter what I think or believe. This is not about _me_. I simply cited what scholars (Monier-Williams for Skt, Sims-Williams for Iranian) had said (I'd be happy if someone tell me a more recent Skt etymological dictionary). 
Second, the early Iranian culture was the reformed continuation of the Indo-Iranian culture. There is no doubt about this.
Third, I'm not sure if Indian, now or before, worshiped cows to begin with.
Fourth, cow was a very important aspect of early Iranian culture, in regard to religion and economy. No doubt about this either. You can see it all over Gathas: Zoroaster seems to call Ahura Mazda "who is the Cow"; and vows, as the first good thing, "not to rob cows"; and seems to be content that his Afterlife reward is "two pregnant cows". And of course, the lineage of all good animals goes to the primordial cow (though this "lineage" is not the same as the _gotra_ usage) _who_ prays as a part of Gathas. No other animal was regarded as highly.


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## CyrusSH

Treaty said:


> First, It doesn't matter what I think or believe. This is not about _me_. I simply cited what scholars (Monier-Williams for Skt, Sims-Williams for Iranian) had said



It is really funny that you consider my source from 2012 as old but your own sources are from two centuries ago!



> Second, the early Iranian culture was the reformed continuation of the Indo-Iranian culture. There is no doubt about this.



But it doesn't mean Iranian and Indian cultures are the same. There is no doubt about this too.



> Third, I'm not sure if Indian, now or before, worshiped cows to begin with.



You know what I meant, Iranians didn't worship fire too.



> Fourth, cow was a very important aspect of early Iranian culture, in regard to religion and economy. No doubt about this either.



Just Iranian culture or all other cultures in the world?



> You can see it all over Gathas: Zoroaster seems to call Ahura Mazda "who is the Cow"; and vows, as the first good thing, "not to rob cows"; and seems to be content that his Afterlife reward is "two pregnant cows". And of course, the lineage of all good animals goes to the primordial cow (though this "lineage" is not the same as the _gotra_ usage) _who_ prays as a part of Gathas. No other animal was regarded as highly.



Yes, cow was so important in Avesta that we can never find an Avestan cognate of Sanskrit _gotra_? Of course if you really expected to find the same Sanskrit compound in Avestan!


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## wiiiilmaaaa

Treaty said:


> First, It doesn't matter what I think or believe. This is not about _me_. I simply cited what scholars (Monier-Williams for Skt, Sims-Williams for Iranian) had said (I'd be happy if someone tell me a more recent Skt etymological dictionary).
> Second, the early Iranian culture was the reformed continuation of the Indo-Iranian culture. There is no doubt about this.
> Third, I'm not sure if Indian, now or before, worshiped cows to begin with.
> Fourth, cow was a very important aspect of early Iranian culture, in regard to religion and economy. No doubt about this either. You can see it all over Gathas: Zoroaster seems to call Ahura Mazda "who is the Cow"; and vows, as the first good thing, "not to rob cows"; and seems to be content that his Afterlife reward is "two pregnant cows". And of course, the lineage of all good animals goes to the primordial cow (though this "lineage" is not the same as the _gotra_ usage) _who_ prays as a part of Gathas. No other animal was regarded as highly.



Agreed. However, please don't mistake the Avesta with the Gathas. Only the Gathas are assumed to be derived by Zoroaster while all the other chapters in the Avesta can either predate the Gathas or succeed them. So if we speak about the Gathas we talk about a temporaly confined period (lifetime of Zarathustra) while the things contained in the other Avesta chapters may span hundreds and hundreds of years.


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