# FR: je ne sais où/quoi/qui, etc. - sans "pas"



## JoeBloggs

i was wondering why are the expressions not using 'pas'?

je ne sais quoi
je ne sais où

thanks

*Moderator note:* Multiple threads merged to create this one.


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## verbivore

With a _savoir, oser, pouvoir, and cesser, _you can use "ne" without the "pas" and still retain the negation. This is usually found in the written language and not the spoken and is considered formal prose.


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## JoeBloggs

interesting, still is it ok t say je ne sais pas quoi, pas où?


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## verbivore

When you speak, it is usually a "standard" register, so it would be preferred to say it that way. When you write it, you have the choice whether to use the "pas."


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## nallei

As far as I'm concerned, I think it is also possible to use this form in a spoken language, without sounding too obsolete ; for example :

"tu étais parti je ne sais où et j'ai passé une heure à te chercher..."
or
"je t'ai demandé de m'aider et au lieu de cela, tu fais je ne sais quoi..."

I even add that in those two examples, it would be rather weird to say "je ne sais pas quoi" or "je ne sais pas où"


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## Montaigne

standards include : je ne sais qui, je ne sais quand, je ne sais comment, je ne sais pourquoi, je ne sais quel.


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## DT4

*Je ne sais quoi*

Why is the negation allowed to be left out of this? Why is there no pas in this expression ?


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## Cecily

It's a nice way of saying it. But be careful : it doesn't mean "je ne sais pas".
You use it this way :
"Il a un je ne sais quoi qui me plaît". It means he has something that I like.
 It is used as a noun.
Except if followed by a verb : "je ne sais quoi dire" = "je ne sais pas quoi dire". It is the same but nicer.


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## DT4

I fully understand what it means and how to use it and always have. My question was why does it not have a negation like pas after the verb ?


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## Tim~!

It's one of the four verbs (pouvoir, oser, cesser, savoir) that don't require a 'pas' to complete the negation.



DT4 said:


> I fully understand what it means and how to use it and always have. My question was why does it not have a negation like pas after the verb ?


They've survived the passage of time without needing to follow trends.

The original negation was always "ne + verb".  "Pas" and "point" were added to add emphasis, much as "rien", "jamais", "plus" and so forth alter the meaning of the negation, adding precision.

As time progressed, they came appended to any negation that didn't have something else in place, such that "pas" is now considered a default particle.  ("Point" has passed away in everyday use.)

Although I have no evidence to back it up, I'd liken the continued survival of those four verbs as something like the way that the English past participle _hanged _has survived as the form to use for the method of execution, but become _hung _for everything else: the legal system, which is slow to change its language to follow trends and everyday norms.

Judicial language is very flowery, so expressions such as saurait are used where other people would use a form of pouvoir.  This legal usage would always take the form "ne saurait pas" and so on, and are instantly recognisable when moved into the spheres of poetry, literature, and the press.


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## Loomis51

I'm not looking for a translation, I understand quite well what the phrase _je ne sais quoi _means.

It's just that this phrase can't possibly be grammatically correct. It makes no grammatical sense and breaks the rules of French grammar as far as I know them.

First, I've never come across any other French phrase making use of a _ne _without an accompanying _pas._

For that reason alone it would seem to be impossible to come up with even the most awkward of English literal translations.

Still, even if I were to try, the best literal translation _of je ne sais quoi_ I could possibly manage would be _I do [not] know what_, with at best a missing but implied_ not._

I happen to have a French speaking friend who gets annoyed to death whenever I use the phrase to playfully irritate him, knowing he'll go nuts and tell me "STOP SAYING THAT!!! THAT MAKES NO SENSE!!!" 

Am I incorrect and the phrase _is_ somehow grammatically correct?

Otherwise, is it a commonly used an accepted grammatical error, akin to the English _ain't_ or the improper but well understood and commonly used double negative _I don't know *nothing*_, meant by the speaker to actually express the gramatically correct _I don't know *anything*_?


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## Tazzler

It's the _ne littéraire._ See here for more information: Literary and Formal Negative Structures in French


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## Suehil

Have a look at this thread.  The 'pas' in the negative of 'savoir' is optional.


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## Loomis51

Perhaps it's a France/Quebecois thing, but in my 35 years living in Montreal I've never once heard of such a bizarre rule.

If the _pas_ is not necessary when using the verb _savoir_, that would seem to imply that a proper translation of the English _I don't know_ would simply be _je ne sais_.

Are you saying that the three words _je ne sais _would be enough to express the English phrase _I don't know?_

Perhaps it might be appropriate in France, but on the side of the Atlantic a simple _je ne sais_ would make absolutely no sense.

_Merci quand meme. Peut etre vous avez raison mais a ce moment la je ne sais._


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## newg

Peut-être me trompe-je mais le "pas" n'est pas spécialement obligatoire bien qu'il soit rarement voire (jamais) dans un français oral, mais à l'écrit, personnellement, ça ne me choque pas. 

"Je ne peux vous en parler pour le moment, veuillez m'en excuser..." < Ne me choque pas.
"Je ne sais quel tailleur choisir" < Ne me choque pas


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## itka

Loomis, _*you*_ don't know this way of speaking, but as the others said, it's perfectly correct. 
_"Je ne sais"_ is much more high-level than _"je ne sais pas"_ and if you read some literature in french, you'll find it very often as well on this part of the pound as on the other part. It's simply _french_, you know (sorry for your friend if he doesn't know it. Maybe, he just has to learn a bit more french ?)

_"Je ne sais quoi"_ is correct too. It even happens as a noun _"un je-ne-sais-quoi"_... I assume you never meet it before, but if you keep on learning french, you'll read or hear it someday.


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## Nicomon

And this will confirm that - albeit not everyday - _(un)_ _je ne sais quoi_ is also heard on this side of the Atlantic. I lived in Montreal all my life. 


> "Je ne peux vous en parler pour le moment, veuillez m'en excuser..." < Ne me choque pas.
> "Je ne sais quel tailleur choisir" < Ne me choque pas


 Ça ne me choque pas non plus. Il est vrai que la forme inverse _Je peux pas / Je sais pas_ est plus courante à Montréal... mais c'est très familier et non recommandé à l'écrit. 

For the record, Loomis, the literal (but well... a bit awkward sounding) translation of _Je ne sais quoi_ would be _I know not what_ (ne = not, in context)

If you're comfortable reading French, you may find this page and this other page from the BDL interesting


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## Tim~!

Loomis51 said:


> Perhaps it's a France/Quebecois thing, but in my 35 years living in Montreal I've never once heard of such a bizarre rule.
> 
> If the _pas_ is not necessary when using the verb _savoir_, that would seem to imply that a proper translation of the English _I don't know_ would simply be _je ne sais_.
> 
> Are you saying that the three words _je ne sais _would be enough to express the English phrase _I don't know?_



Yes, this is exactly right.

French originally used just the particle _ne_ to express the negative, which is normal, seeing as it's descended from Latin.

Other particles were added over time to lend a bit more precision to the negation: _jamais_ and _rien _you will already be familiar with.  Two others were_ point_ and _pas_.  The point is that those two words didn't make the word negative and weren't necessary; the negative meaning was provided by _ne _on its own.

As time progressed point gave way to pas, which came to be used in every negative construction that couldn't benefit from the other precision words such as _jamais_.

It then became the case that the _ne _was superfluous in oral language to express negativity, and so became largely dropped in spoken French.  People would throw in _jamais_ to mean _never_, _rien _to mean _nothing_, and the leftover _pas _came to be general negativity.

However, judicial language tends not to change over time (hence British English still having the past participle _hanged_ for the case of executing criminals, whilst the newer form _hung_ is used in all other instances), so those words that tend to be found in legal texts still preserve their forms where _ne _is the only particle that is necessary for negation: Savoir, cesser, pouvoir, oser.

These verbs can still be used in the negative without the mandatory addition of _pas_, hence perfectly sound expressions such as _je ne sais quoi_.

Of course, in practice people tend to throw the _pas _in and omit the _ne_, just as with every other verb, so the _ne-only_ forms are rather haughty, even though they're perfectly accurate and justifiable.



Loomis51 said:


> Perhaps it's a France/Quebecois thing, but in my 35 years living in Montreal I've never once heard of such a bizarre rule.



I've spent about one fifteenth of my life living in France and have come across _je ne sais quoi_ and examples of the other verbs using only _ne_ countless times, enough for me to know without thinking which four verbs this applies to.



Loomis51 said:


> As for itka, I'm having a bit of trouble understanding exactly what you're saying, and just why you're saying it in the manner you are.



It could be frustration from your delivery.  I know I shared itka's head-shaking response to reading your comments about how this makes no sense and is bizarre, when it's a well-known phenomenon that you ought to have encountered before.


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## El Caballero Solitario

C'est completement correct. Bizarre, certes mais correct.


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## Grop

Hello,

Loomis, this discussion seems to suggest that such a construction is more frequent in France than in Québec. This is possible, but even in France it is rare to omit saying "pas" when speaking. Except for a few set phrases (like using _je-ne-sais-quoi_ as a noun) it mostly belongs to litterature.

Maybe there are contexts* in which I would omit saying "pas" but I would definitely say it in a context like:

_Il faut faire quelque chose, mais je ne sais pas quoi_. (_Something must be done, but I don't know what_).

So, when omitting saying "pas", maybe you are not technically incorrect, but you are probably choosing a wrong register, and not sounding very natural (at least to me and, it would seem, to your friend).

Also, in some context if you omit saying "pas", people you are talking to may wait for you to finish your sentence. Written "_Je ne sais._" is obviously a complete sentence because of the dot, but this is not true about spoken _Je ne sais_.

* Edit: Now I think of it, there are indeed, at the end of an enumeration for instance.


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## Nicomon

Food for thoughts...
The following (Canada born) Bryan Adams verse, from this song : 
http://www.universound.ca/fr/chanson/1603/ 

"Please forgive me - I know not what I do"
- Would indeed be loosely translated as :  
« S'il-te-plait, pardonne-moi - je ne sais ce que je fais »  

"I know not" certainly isn't common either. Even sounds a little curious to our unused ears. But I wouldn't be surprised to find out that it was the "norm" at some point in time before it became "I do not know" and then "I don't know".

« Je ne saurais te dire »... is something I'm likely to say... in specific context.


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