# Egyptian Arabic: vowel length at the end of suffixed verbs



## makala

rama (he threw) , ramaah (he threw it), ramahulna (he threw it to us), maramahulnaash (he did not throw it to us),
can someone explain why the a is lengthened only in ramaah?

it also says : gibtahaalak (I brought it to you), but do I say : gibtahaalukumsh (I brought it to you (plural))?


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## londonmasri

I don't really know the actual rule (perhaps Josh or anyone else could explain this). (I think it is something do with no long vowels in the middle of words, but I'm not sure).



> it also says : gibtahaalak (I brought it to you), but do I say : gibtahaalukumsh (I brought it to you (plural))?


 
I brought it to you (plural) = gibtaha-l-kum.

The 'sh' is only used with the negative and the word would begin with 'ma'. E.g 'magibtaha-l-kum-sh'.

Let's wait for confirmation from the others.


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## makala

it has to do with lengthening the final vowel before a suffix, for example nisi (he forgot) : nisiih (he forgot it) but obviously this rule doesn't always hold as i showed with rama (he threw), I don't know why.


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## londonmasri

makala said:


> it has to do with lengthening the final vowel before a suffix, for example nisi (he forgot) : nisiih (he forgot it) but obviously this rule doesn't always hold as i showed with rama (he threw), I don't know why.


 
hey makala

What do you mean by this? From what i can see both th examples are exactly the same.

huwwa  nis*ii*h
           ram*aa*h

I may have misunderstood.


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## makala

I mean the the following, according to my book there's a rule that reads: while suffixing a word that ends in a vowel, that vowel is prolonged, so for example : rama- ramaah or nisi- nisiih, but when one adds ''..it to you'' rama becomes ramahu-l-kum it's not ramaahu-l-kum without the long a, that's what I don't understand, may it be because the stress doesn't fall on the a in ramahulkum?


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## cherine

Hi Makala,

I don't know the rule because we don't learn our dialect in school. But here are some examples:
rama = he threw
ramaah = he threw it
ramaaha = he threw it (it being a fem. object)
ramaholko/ramahalko = he threw it to you

edda = he gave
eddaah = he gave it
eddaholko = he gave it to you

So, I think the rule mentioned in your book is correct, but it can't be applied to the verb "nesi" because you don't forget something to someone (like giving something to someone).


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## makala

OK cherine, thank you.


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## cherine

You're welcome.


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## makala

just another questions concerning this, would I say gibtulak, or gibtuulak ( I brought it for you)? because in my book it says gibtahaalak, not gibtehalak


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## londonmasri

As a side note - if you were to say 'he threw it to you' it would be ramah*oo*lak/ramahaalak.

eddah*oo*lak? = did he give it to you

Corrections are welcomed.


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## makala

in short the question would read : when do I prolong a short vowel?


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## cherine

makala said:


> just another questions concerning this, would I say gibtulak, or gibtuulak ( I brought it for you)? because in my book it says gibtahaalak, not gibtehalak


Ok, let's make a difference between the final pronouns here:
gebtohuulak = I brought it for you (singular you "enta")
gebtoholko = I brought it for you (plural you "ento")

The difference between gebtohuulak and gebtahaalak is in the gender of the object: gebto (I brought it "howwa") gebtaha (I brought it "heyya").

So, to analyze the rule a step further: it applies when the final suffix is a singular pronoun.
*P.S. Please use standard writing style (proper capitalization and punctuation). Thanks *



londonmasri said:


> As a side note - if you were to say 'he threw it to you' it would be ramah*oo*lak/ramahaalak.
> 
> eddah*oo*lak? = did he give it to you
> 
> Corrections are welcomed.


Yes, you're right. But to make sure we're on the same pronunciation line here, it's ramah*uu*lak and eddah*uu*lak.
And one more confirmation: the object that is being thrown or given is masculine. If it was feminine, we say ramahaalak, eddahaalak.


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## makala

*So, to analyze the rule a step further: it applies when the final suffix is a singular pronoun.
*

so for example gibtuulak(gibtahaalak) but gibtulkum (gibtahalkum) 

am I corrrect?


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## cherine

makala said:


> So for example, gibtuulak(gibtahaalak) but gibtulkum (gibtahalkum).
> 
> Am I corrrect?


Yes, you are. But please start your sentences with capital letters and use the proper punctuation.

And I would transliterate the verbs like this:
gebtohuulak - gebtoholko(m). Why do you drop the "h" in the masculine forms?


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## makala

*Why do you drop the "h" in the masculine forms? *

My book transliterates it the way I wrote it, sorry.


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## cherine

No problem. Some people pronounce it this way, so it's not incorrect.


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## clevermizo

Ok, it has to do with how the stress moves and the rules governing lengthening and shortening of vowels. Now remember that since the dialects are not standardized, these are _descriptive_ rules.


I'll go through the example using _rama_ and clarify the rules as I understand them.

First some notes/definitions:

1. I will use the acute accent (á, ú etc.) to mark the position of *stress*.

2. Definitions: 
Stressed syllable: The syllable that receives the main stress/accent in a word. Example: mád.ra.se (in Levantine) but mad.rá.sa in Egyptian.

Pretonic syllable: Syllable(s) that occur(s) before the main stress.

Posttonic syllable: Syllable(s) that occur(s) after the main stress. 

In _madrása_ in Egyptian Arabic, _mad_ is a pretonic syllable, _ra_ is the stressed syllable and sa is the posttonic syllable.

Now, on to the analysis.


I. Ráma رمى

This is basic word. It has two short vowels [a,a] the first of which is stressed. 

II. Ramáa(h) رماه
Ramáaha رماها

This means "he threw it(masc. or fem.)." In _ramaah_ I left the _h_ in parentheses but I'm not sure it's actually pronounced. In Levantine Arabic dialects this is not pronounced, only the vowel is long.

*Rule 1*: If a word ends in ـا or ـى, upon the addition of a suffix this vowel is actually pronounced _long_ rather than short. So RAMA > RAM*AA+suffix*.

*Rule 2*: A long vowel is a stress attractant. When a word has a long vowel or is given a long vowel by a grammatical process, then the stress moves to the vowel. Ráma but Ramáa(h).


III. Addition of an additional suffix. 

Now suppose we add "to you you (sing., masc.)"


*Rule 3*: The masculine object pronoun suffix -_h_ changes from -_h _to -hu when additional suffixes are added.

Ramaa(h) > Ramaahu+lak

*Rule 4*: When a word ends in ـو and a suffix is added (like when a verb ends in ـا، ـى), the vowel is lengthened: hu+lak>huulak

Ramaahu+lak > Ramaahuulak > Ramahúulak

*Rule 5*: You can only have one long vowel in a word and the long vowel gets the stress (from *Rule 2*). Think of the stress as a prize. Both the -aa- and the -uu- are fighting for the stress. The vowel that wins is the one closest to the end of the word. So uu gets the stress. As soon as he gets it, the aa shortens out of respect for the winner. 

With the same rules, for رماها we get:

Ramáaha (*Rule 1*)> Ramaah*aa* + lak (*Rule 1*) > Ramaháalak (*Rule 5*)

IV. Now consider: Ramaholko 

Ramáa(h) (*Rule 1*) > Ramaah*uu* + lko (*Rule 4*) > Ramahúu + lko (*Rule 5*) > Ramah*ólko* 

*Rule 6*: Now something has changed. UU has beaten AA in the game for winning the stress and AA has shortened. However, UU now comes before two consonants. When a long vowel comes before two consonants in Egyptian Arabic it gets shortened. We write the shortened Damma as _o_ (although some prefer *u*). 


So to review:


Rule 1: If a word ends in -a, this gets lengthened to -aa when you add a suffix.
Rule 2: The long vowel in the word gets the main stress.
Rule 3: -h becomes -hu when another suffix is added
Rule 4: If a word ends in -u, this gets lengthened to -uu when you add a suffix (like Rule 1).
Rule 5: Two long vowels in a word compete to receive the stress. The one closest to the end of the word gets it and the _pretonic_ long vowel shortens.
Rule 6: When a long vowel comes before two consonants, it gets shortened, but the stress remains in place.

Basically the main idea is that final vowels get lengthened as you add suffixes, and when you add more, these vowels compete for stress. So the stress keeps moving down the length of the word (ráma>ramáa(h)>ramahúulak>ma ramaholáksh) as when it moves off of a long vowel, the long vowel shortens.

Vowels change in many languages when stress moves. Consider the difference in pronunciation between English _possible_ and _possibility_. When we write these phonetically:

[*pá*.sι.bəl]+ [ə.ti] > pa.sι.*bι*.lə.ti.

The stress moves from the first syllable to the third when we add the suffix. When this happens, the vowel also changes ə>ι.


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## makala

Wow, thank you for your time clevermizo. I understand that learning stress and accent is essential to egyptian arabic, I didn't learn it quite well, even though it's treated at very beginning of my book, if I did, I would have understood right away,but now I do. thanks


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## cherine

Excellent post ya Mizo.  If you ever consider a career change, I suggest you go for teaching. 


clevermizo said:


> This means "he threw it(masc. or fem.)." In _ramaah_ I left the _h_ in parentheses but I'm not sure it's actually pronounced. In Levantine Arabic dialects this is not pronounced, only the vowel is long.


Good remark. I think we don't pronounce it either, or at least it's almost imperceptible.


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