# Penitence



## ThomasK

Would you have an equivalent of the word 'penitence' in your language, maybe 'penitent' (person or characteristic of a person) ? 

Let's say that it refers to (1) the state of sorrow and pity about regrets, and maybe also to (2) the willingness to undergo some punishment (_peni_-) for that, or 'punish' oneself for that. 

Could you specify the context in which you can or could use it?


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## jazyk

In Portuguese:

penitence - penitência
penitent - penitente


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## apmoy70

VERY complicated subject concerning its concept in Greek due to the different view of penitence in the Latin West and the Greek East (let's just say that in the West due to its feudalistic past these concepts are more "judicial" while in the East and in the Greek mind, these concepts are more "ontological"); but I'll try to keep it simple:
-Μεταμέλεια, metam*e*lia (_f._); compound word formed by the joining of the ancient preposition μετὰ (me'ta->after, behind, changed, altered)+μέλω ('melō ->to care for, to take an interest in). Metamelia describes the change of purpose which leads to regret.
-Μετάνοια, met*a*nia (_f._); compound word formed by the joining of the ancient preposition μετὰ (me'ta->after, behind, changed, altered)+νοέω/νοῶ (no'eō [uncontracted], no'ō [contracted]->perceive by the nous, apprehend. Metania describes the change of mind, the regret, the repentance.
-Επιτίμιο(ν), epit*i*mion [in ancient/medieval Greek]/epit*i*mio [modern Greek] (_n._); compound word formed by the joining of the ancient preposition ἐπὶ (upon, at, in addition)+τιμάω/τιμῶ (ti'maō [uncontracted], ti'mō [contracted]->to value, to honour, to prize). Perhaps it's the closest one to the western view of _punishment (peni-)_ since epitimion in ancient & medieval Greek described the penalty laid on a person by the judges.


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## federicoft

In Italian:
(1) - rimorso, pentimento, contrizione, compunzione 
(2) - penitenza (noun), pentirsi (verb)


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## ThomasK

Italian: oh yes, I remember: 'pentiti' (from the maffia, I believe). Would you be able to distinguish between those four, Frederico ? 

Greek: I understand, I knew it was a very difficult question, but thanks for replying in that way. Does _epitimion_ also refer to fear (scaring - I seem to remember _timeo_, fear)? I miss something as for _metameleia_: is that change induced by metanoia then ? On the other hand I would think the term(s) is (are) mainly religious around here.


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## federicoft

ThomasK said:


> Italian: oh yes, I remember: 'pentiti' (from the maffia, I believe). Would you be able to distinguish between those four, Frederico ?



Yes, mafia pentiti.
I think those four have the same fundamental meaning. The differences are mostly in diffusion (they are listed from the most common to the rarest). _Contrizione _is also used in religious sense.


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## ThomasK

ONe addition, Apmoy: I think the term(s) is (are) mainly religious (moral) around here. I checked in English, and I think the word is most common in religious contexts. But there seem to be alternatives: _compunction, contrition, remorse, repentance_ (see _answers.com__)._ I think the last ones can be a-religious, but we need a native speaker to confirm that. 
Dutch by the way: _*penitentie*_ in Dutch would be the punishment, I think, but in the religious context only, and is quite uncommon now. *Boete* though isn't: it used to be a term for punishment [for something one is guilty of ] ('Schuld en boete', translation of the Dostojevski novel 'Crime and Punishment'), but now it is the most common term in Dutch-speaking Belgium for a fine (which we get even without remorse...). 
_*Wroeging*_ is the traditional translation of _remorse_, *spijt* (regret) is way softer, and I would certainly not consider it a synonym of 'penitence'...


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## Nizo

In Esperanto,

_*penti*_ = to be sorry for something one has done, with a desire to make it right and not do it again (_li tion pentos!_ he'll be sorry for that!); regret, have remorse

_*pento*_ = sorrow for sinning, doing something wrong, making a mistake; regret, remorse, penitance

_*pentofari*_ = to fix a sin or guilt by repentant sufferings and good deeds; to do/make penance

_*pentofaro*_ = penance (self-punishment to atone for one's sin)


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## Nizo

It might be of interest to note that in English-speaking countries, the word *penitentiary*has been used for at least 250 years for a type of prison with strict discipline and hard labor, designed to reform as well as punish convicts.


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## ThomasK

INteresting contribution, Nizo. You are pointing out correctly that _peni_- refers to punishment, but apparently it has not to do with Lat. _poena_ (punishment), but with* 'being unsatisfactory' *(Lat. 'paene', nearby). I am quite surprised really, I really thought it had to do with _poena_. 

The most interesting to me are the words in (1), the feeling of remorse (and regret, shame, maybe). 

I am just thinking: there is a metaphor in them of *biting* (_remorse_ < Lat. _mordere_), and of *brokenness* of some kind (_contrition_ - or just rubbing _?_) or of *stinging* (_compunction_). Just wondering if that kind of words (metaphors) can also be found in non-European languages...


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## Favara

Catalan:
Penitence -> _Penitència_ (f.)
"Penitent" -> _Penitent_ (m./f.)
(To repent -> _Penedir-se_)



> I am just thinking: there is a metaphor in them of *biting* (_remorse_ < Lat. _mordere_),


We say_ re*mordi*ment_ 
All those _re-_ prefixes make me think of "biting again/twice".


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## ThomasK

Quite right - or 'biting back' ... ;-)


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## sakvaka

The Finnish word is _katumus_. However, this doesn't contain anything that would signify "self-punishment" -- its just regret. Surprisingly, we can find the word "katu" 'street' in it, but I don't believe this would be the root.

The most religious words in our language were created by reformist Mikael Agricola in the 16th century. This sounds just like a word he could be responsible for (besides, it even appears in his prayer: _anna meille *catumus* / ia elemen parannus / teuden vscon_...). 

But what's the stem? Maybe it's _kato-_ (lack-, disappear-), I don't know.


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## Maroseika

In Russian these words are different though having one stem кая(ть) *kay(at')*:

раскаяние - the feeling of regret for doing smth.
покаяние - the same, but in "public" form.

Both words however can be used to express the willingness to be punished, but the latter - only in moral sense, while the former - in both, moral or judicial senses.

Interesting thing: 'punishement' and related words in other Romance and Germanic languages derivate from Latin _poena_ < *Greek ποινή - value**, repention, punishment**.*
But a/m Russian words also have to do with this Greek word:
Каять (to scold, to blame) is congeneric with Ancient-Indian _cа́уаtē _"he revenges, punishes", Lith. _káinа_ - price, Avestian kāу- to pay out, to repent, _kaēnā _- revenge, punishment, kаϑа - retribution, Greek τίνω - I'm crying, repenting and, finally, also *ποινή.*

Thus, the very idea of punishment = revenge = retribution independently remained in Slavic and Romance > German languages, being express in congeneric words ascending to quite the same IE stem.


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## ThomasK

sakvaka said:


> The Finnish word is _katumus_. However, this doesn't contain anything that would signify "self-punishment" -- its just regret. Surprisingly, we can find the word "katu" 'street' in it, but I don't believe this would be the root.
> 
> The most religious words in our language were created by reformist Mikael Agricola in the 16th century. This sounds just like a word he could be responsible for (besides, it even appears in his prayer: _anna meille *catumus* / ia elemen parannus / teuden vscon_...).
> 
> But what's the stem? Maybe it's _kato-_ (lack-, disappear-), I don't know.


 
Do you have a word for _remorse_, Sakvaka? That would come closer to what we mean. But very interesting background information !


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## ThomasK

Maroseika said:


> In Russian these words are different though having one stem кая(ть) *kay(at')*:
> 
> раскаяние - the feeling of regret for doing smth.
> покаяние - the same, but in "public" form.
> 
> Interesting thing: 'punishement' and related words in other Romance and Germanic languages derivate from Latin _poena_ < *Greek ποινή - value**, repention, punishment**.*
> But a/m Russian words also have to do with this Greek word:
> Каять (to scold, to blame) is congeneric with Ancient-Indian _cа́уаtē _"he revenges, punishes", Lith. _káinа_ - price, Avestian kāу- to pay out, to repent, _kaēnā _- revenge, punishment, kаϑа - retribution, Greek τίνω - I'm crying, repenting and, finally, also *ποινή.*


This is very interesting information indeed. But two questions if I may, M. : 
- do you have a separate word for _remorse_, this very painful word for the feeling of guilt, shame, caused by a mistake or ... ? 
- _poena_ is interesting, but I found out that _penitence_ strangely enough refers to _paene_, hardly; and by the way: can the evolution of /k/ to /p/ be justified etymologically ? (And a/m ?) 
(Thanks !)


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## sakvaka

ThomasK said:


> Do you have a word for _remorse_, Sakvaka? That would come closer to what we mean. But very interesting background information !



I checked it on the Internet: the word is _tunnonvaivat_ (inconveniences of feelings/conscience). But this is quite mild and "conformist" expression and nowhere near the biblical concept of penitence.


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## ThomasK

Thanks, Sakvaka, but when I hear 'pangs of remorse', then that sounds pretty serious. What is the difference to you? To what extent do you see a difference from the Biblical concept ?


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## sakvaka

I don't have a dictionary at my hands, but I'd say that _katumus_ and _syyllisyydentunto_ (feeling of being guilty) are the most powerful words that suit our context, if we leave alone other words involving strong feelings. I don't recognize the English word "remorse"; it may have a simple Finnish translation (fellow natives, help!), but even though I don't know the New Testament very well, I can claim that "katumus" is used the most in it.

_Tunnonvaivat_ is way too formal, long and mild expression for a book like The Bible, as you can notice in the English translation. It could be used in the New Year speech of the president or in a psychology book.


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## Maroseika

ThomasK said:


> This is very interesting information indeed. But two questions if I may, M. :
> - do you have a separate word for _remorse_, this very painful word for the feeling of guilt, shame, caused by a mistake or ... ?
> - _poena_ is interesting, but I found out that _penitence_ strangely enough refers to _paene_, hardly; and by the way: can the evolution of /k/ to /p/ be justified etymologically ? (And a/m ?)
> (Thanks !)


I'll begin from the end:
- A/m  - above mentioned, for some reason I was sure this is a common way to shorten it. Sorry if I was wrong.

- Remorse: the most precise translation consists of two words: угрызения совести, literally - bites of conscience, but most likely this is a calque of Latin _morsus conscientiae_ of German _Nagendes Gewissen_.

- as for the PIE > Greek evolution, in fact this is not k > p, but *kʷ > p* (and *kʷ > t* as in τίνω "I'm crying"), and it looks quite typical; here are some more examples: 

_- pólos; pélesthai; pélein_ (wheel) < *kʷékʷlo- (Russian "koleso")
- πραπίς  (body) < *kʷrép-o- (cf. Latin corpus, Russian "krup")  
- πρίαμαι  (to buy) < _*kʷrei-_ (Ancient-Russian "krenut')
- τε (enclitic 'and') < _*kʷe_
_
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:List_of_Proto-Indo-European_roots#k.CA.B7_


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## ThomasK

@Sakvaka: thanks, you have already done a great job,  but maybe it helps when I give a context:

 " He drove very fast, lost control and thus got his wife and daughter killed. He could no longer live without [strong feelings of] ...."

Whether that would be different in a Biblical context, no idea. But the word you suggest seems amazingly long: I would avoid having remorse just to avoid having to pronounce it... ;-)

@Maroseika: great information, and you have really taught me something about etymology, and something about English (had never seen 'a/m' like that).


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## niernier

In the Philippine setting, there's this tradition of hurting oneself to wash away sins which we call *penitensya*. People who desire forgiveness and want to share the suffering of Christ our Lord before he was crucified will normally do penitensya every holy week. The penitents opt to impersonate Christ on the way to his crucifixion complete with people who gives lashes throught the ordeal. And the final act of course is the nailing on the cross.

Penitensya has gained currency in Filipino and is generally adopted to describe self-flagellation or the act of whipping oneself as a solemn sacrifice to God. Penitensya is not always seen by those who perform it as an atonement for past sins comitted but is seen more of a vow made in faith for a recovery from a serious illness or gratefulness for all the blessings received.


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## ThomasK

Maybe, Niernier, could you also focus on the concept of remorse ? Do you have words for that in Tagalog? (Thanks !)


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## niernier

I am not certain if there is a concept of remorse in Filipino so I cannot give you a direct translation to it. Our Tagalog term "pagsisisi" is associated with "repentance"(in religious context) or "regret". But as for remorse, it may have a simple translation but I have no idea as of now. If I am not getting wrong, remorse should be stronger than regret, but I think we are not tackling the difference between the two.


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## ThomasK

Maybe there is only a slight difference between the two somehow. Is 'pagsissi' based on another word, or other words, by the way ? (Thanks again !)


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## apmoy70

ThomasK said:


> Does _epitimion_ also refer to fear (scaring - I seem to remember _timeo_, fear)?


Isn't _timeo_ "to fear" in Latin?
In Greek it has more the meaning of value, metaphorically it can be used as "respect" too. When I τιμώ someone, I value him, I respect him.


ThomasK said:


> I miss something as for _metameleia_: is that change induced by metanoia then ?


Yes indeed. I realise what I have done, I change my mind/nous (metanoia) and then express my regret (metameleia).


ThomasK said:


> On the other hand I would think the term(s) is (are) mainly religious around here.


In Greek these terms are used both in religious and secular context.

PS: I forgot to post the Greek equivalent of _remorse_. We use the Hellenistic word τύψη ('tupsē, _f._, in Hellenistic Greek; t*i*psi, _f._, in modern Greek). Τύψη derives from the Hellenistic proverb/saying «τὴν συνείδησιν τύπτειν», "to smite one's conscience". We mostly use it in plural; we say έχω τύψεις, or νιώθω τύψεις (*e*xo t*i*psis, or ɲ*o*θo t*i*psis), I have or feel the smites


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## ThomasK

The smites: I suppose that hurts as well, Apmoy, just like the compunction, contrition, etc. !

 (BTW: a happy wordy year to you and all)


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