# aller dans le sens de l'Histoire



## Icetrance

Hello,

What does this mean in the sentence below?

Context:

It is talking about a famous footballer who has achieved a great deal for a footballers union. 

This is the entire sentence: 

Sa volonté d'élaborer une charte européenne du football, qui ne pourra voir le jour sans l'assentiment des joueurs, *va dans le sens de l'histoire*.

Could it mean that his determination to devise a charter it is likely to make history?

Or, does it mean this his determination to do so is what is expected to happen in this news story. 

I'd appreciate any help.


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## Johanne

Icetrance said:


> Sa volonté d'élaborer une charte européenne du football, qui ne pourra voir le jour sans l'assentiment des joueurs, *va dans le sens de l'histoire*.
> 
> Or, does it mean this his determination to do so is what is expected to happen in this news story.


 
That's the way I understand it.


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## Sickduck

It means that what he is trying to do is following the natural course of history and that the future will prove him right.


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## Icetrance

Sickduck said:


> It means that what he is trying to do is following the natural course of history and that the future will prove him right.



Je ne suis pas sûr d'avoir compris ce que vous avez proposé comme sens. 

Merci beaucoup quand même!


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## Icetrance

To say "is going in the direction/course of history" bears little meaning in English. 

Does it mean that this this devising a charter is on its way to becoming reality (it will eventually be part of history)?


Une démarche va dans le sens de la nouvelle loi = A step aimed at making a new  loi?

This "dans le sens de" is confusing me. Not only that, I'm unsure of the meaning of "histoire".


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## multae gentes

this text uses the marxist concept of a "course of history" (is this the usual English translation?) in the field of sports. The author seems to believe that certain changes in that field are unavoidable.


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## Qcumber

"The natural course of history" is not uncommon in history books.
Somehow, history is seen like a river, either you punt downstream, thus following the direction of the current or you punt upstream against the current.


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## Icetrance

va dans le sens de l'histoire = is in the natural course of history

In other words, drawing up a charter is bound to happen; it will happen over the course of history (can't be avoided). 

But, it's not "sa volonté" which is bound to happen, but rather the drawing up of a charter. 

It still sounds very awkward to translate this literally into English.

*"In the natural course of events"* (bound to happen) sounds better in English.


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## Qcumber

Icetrance said:


> *"In the natural course of events"* (bound to happen) sounds better in English.


Make a Google search for "natural course of history", and you'll find plenty of occurrences.
On the other hand, in the text we are dealing with, "history" sounds rather grand for something like soccer.


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## Icetrance

Just maybe I understand now LOL

*His determination to draw up a charter is in the natural course of events*. 
It can only be expected. 

That's how I understand it at this point. 

Thanks everyone for your input. Je vous sais gré tous.


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## Icetrance

Qcumber said:


> Make a Google search for for "natural course of history", and you'll find plenty of occurrences.
> On the other hand, in the text we are dealing with, "history" sounds rather grand for something like soccer.




You are right that it can indeed be said. But, you can't use this in this translation. It would sound awkward and wouldn't make any sense

is headed in the course of history


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## Icetrance

On ne peut s'attendre qu'à ce qu'il y ait cette volonté de ce footballeur d'élaborer cette charte.


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## Cath.S.

> this text uses the marxist concept of a "course of history"


Je suis d'accord, et ce n'est pas plus bizarre en anglais qu'en français àmha.


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## Icetrance

egueule said:


> Je suis d'accord, et ce n'est pas plus bizarre en anglais qu'en français àmha.




"Course of history" is not uncommon in English, but you can't use it when translating this sentence into English. That's my point.  

va dans le sens de l'histoire = is (going/headed) in the course of history

That just can't be said in natural English. 

va dans le sens de l'histoire = is in the natural course of events 

That's the only I can get my head around it.


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## Qcumber

Icetrance said:


> Sa volonté d'élaborer une charte européenne du football, qui ne pourra voir le jour sans l'assentiment des joueurs, *va dans le sens de l'histoire*.


I'd like to tackle it. 
His will to draw up a European charter for soccer, and this cannot be achieved without the players' agreement, meets what is expected for the future.


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## Icetrance

Qcumber said:


> I'd like to tackle it.
> His will to draw up a European charter for soccer, and this cannot be achieved without the players' agreement, meets what is expected for the future.



Thanks for your translation, Qcumber. I appreciate it. 

Here's my translation:

*His determination to draw up a European charter for soccer - impossible without the players' consent - can only be expected.*

can only be expected = is in the natural course of events


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## Qcumber

Icetrance said:


> Thanks for your translation, Qcumber. I appreciate it.
> 
> Here's my translation:
> 
> *His determination to draw up a European charter for soccer - impossible without the players' consent - can only be expected.*
> 
> can only be expected = is in the natural course of events


 
Yes, it's good, too.


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## Icetrance

This has been a difficult translation for me, but I think I finally understand it.

va dans le sens de l'histoire = dans le sens de l'évolution de la société


In other word's, society's attitude is naturally turning out to be the same in regards to having a charter drawn up. Society's mentality is evolving in the same direction as the player's.

*The player's determination to draw up a charter for the sport - impossible without the players' consent - is expected to be mirrored in the future general trend of thought.*


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## Kelly B

...is following (continuing along) the path established (set) by history.


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## Cath.S.

Mon grain de sel, Icetrance :
je trouve que tu saisis mieux le concept que dans tes précédentes versions. 


> va dans le sens de l'histoire = dans le sens de l'évolution de la société


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## Icetrance

egueule said:


> Mon grain de sel, Icetrance :
> je trouve que tu saisis mieux le concept que dans tes précédentes versions.




Je pense que je la saisis assez bien, mais le problème est de savoir rendre cette phrase dans un anglais correct et naturel. 

I just can't understand the literal meaning of "va dans le sens de l'histoire"

going in the direction of history??  That just doesn't make sense to me, even though I think I have an idea of what it means after all the posts.


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## Icetrance

I don't think I understand what is meant by the French word "histoire".

I think that has been my problem from the very beginning.


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## lgd190

salut à tous,

pour moi la meilleure traduction c'est l'avant-dernière de icetrance, à savoir :

*His determination to draw up a European charter for soccer - impossible without the players' consent - can only be expected.*

il ne s'agit pas de la grande histoire au sens marxiste, mais de ce qu'on attend du fameux footbaleur engagé, donc la notion de "expectation" est ce qui rend le mieux cette idée d'après moi.

la toute dernière traduction de icetrance trahit totalement l'esprit du texte à traduire et passe à côté du sens je crois (il s'agit de football après tout, pas de philosophie transcendentale)


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## catay

Another suggestion: It seems to me that it is his effort to organize a charter that is noteworthy. 
"His determination..........._will go down in the history books," _an expression that can be applied to an important historical event or used more colloquially as an idiom indicating that something was a notable achievement.

Or perhaps, an alternate way to phrase this: "will go down in history."


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## Icetrance

catay said:


> Another suggestion: It seems to me that it is his effort to organize a charter that is noteworthy.
> "His determination..........._will go down in the history books," _an expression that can be applied to an important historical event or used more colloquially as an idiom indicating that something was a notable achievement.
> 
> Or perhaps, an alternate way to phrase this: "will go down in history."




Thanks, catay! 

I initially thought the same thing (although I didn't post it on here), but French natives don't seem to be pointing me in that direction. But, I understand fully where you are coming from with that. I hope this thread continues on.

Igd190, je pense bien que tu as fait mouche!

Voici la phrase reformulée:

Sa volonté d'élaborer une charte va dans le sens de l'histoire = *Compte tenu du sens de l'histoire (la façon dont l'histoire se déroule), on ne peut s'attendre qu'à une telle volonté d'élaborer une charte de la part de ce footballeur célèbre.*

C'est difficile à en être certain, mais je crois que Igd190 a mis fin à ce long calvaire.


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## Cath.S.

catay said:


> Another suggestion: It seems to me that it is his effort to organize a charter that is noteworthy.
> "His determination..........._will go down in the history books," _an expression that can be applied to an important historical event or used more colloquially as an idiom indicating that something was a notable achievement.
> 
> Or perhaps, an alternate way to phrase this: "will go down in history."


Sorry Catay, wrong interpretation.


			
				lgd190 said:
			
		

> salut à tous,
> 
> pour moi la meilleure traduction c'est l'avant-dernière de icetrance, à savoir :
> 
> *His determination to draw up a European charter for soccer - impossible without the players' consent - can only be expected.*
> 
> il ne s'agit pas de la grande histoire au sens marxiste, mais de ce qu'on attend du fameux footbaleur engagé, donc la notion de "expectation" est ce qui rend le mieux cette idée d'après moi.
> 
> la toute dernière traduction de icetrance trahit totalement l'esprit du texte à traduire et passe à côté du sens je crois (il s'agit de football après tout, pas de philosophie transcendentale)


Certes il ne s'agit pas de la grande histoire de l'humanité, mais bien de la grande histoire des sports, que certains - dont je ne suis pas, mais cela ne m'empêche pas de concevoir que d'autres puissent attacher une immense importance à des aspects de la vie qui m'indifférent totalement - prennent très au sérieux.
Ceci dit, la traduction que tu juges la meilleure ne constitue certainement pas un contresens, en revanche je persiste à penser que c'est un peu sous-traduit, mais ce n'est que mon opinion.


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## catay

> Or perhaps, an alternate way to phrase this: "will go down in history."Sorry Catay, wrong interpretation.
> /QUOTE]
> 
> I'd like to understand the meaning of this phrase in the context you've given, Icetrance. Given what you wrote on Post #25:
> 
> His determination to draw up a European charter for soccer - impossible without the players' consent - can only be expected *as the history unfolds or as the story unfolds.*


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## Icetrance

catay said:


> Or perhaps, an alternate way to phrase this: "will go down in history."Sorry Catay, wrong interpretation.
> /QUOTE]
> 
> I'd like to understand the meaning of this phrase in the context you've given, Icetrance. Given what you wrote on Post #25:
> 
> His determination to draw up a European charter for soccer - impossible without the players' consent - can only be expected *as the history unfolds or as the story unfolds.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I appreciate your interest in this, catay. I've spent four days trying to figure out a decent translation into English for this.  Like you, "va dans le sens de l'histoire" just doesn't seem to make sense. But, I think I may understand it now: His determination to draw up a charter for soccer can only be expected, considering how the history of this sport has been evolving/unraveling. If you look at the recent history of the game, you would not be at all surprised to find out that this famous footballer would be so determined to have a charter drawn up for the sport.
> 
> Literally, *va dans le sens de l'histoire du football* = *is going in the direction in which history has been evolving*
> 
> His determination is going in the direction in which the history of the sport has been evolving (prefer present perfect progressive tense here)
> 
> In other words, his determination mimics the current trend of thought.
> 
> I now propose 3 translations:
> 
> His determination to draw up a European charter for soccer - impossible without the players' consent - can only be expected, considering the recent developments in the sport.
> 
> His determination to draw up a European charter for soccer - impossible without the players' consent - mimics the current trend of thought surrounding the game.
> 
> His determination to draw up a European charter for soccer - impossible without the players' consent - is in sync with the times.
> 
> 
> Voilà
Click to expand...


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## catay

(Je comprends bien pourquoi vous avez dit "ce long calvaire"...)

My two cents worth:

His determination to draw up a European charter for soccer - impossible without the players' consent - coincides with the recent direction the sport has taken (has been taking).
 
Or simply, "coincides with the direction the sport has been taking."


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## Icetrance

catay said:


> (Je comprends bien pourquoi vous avez dit "ce long calvaire"...)
> 
> My two cents worth:
> 
> His determination to draw up a European charter for soccer - impossible without the players' consent - coincides with the recent direction the sport has taken (has been taking).




Quant à la compréhension de cette expression française, on dirait que vous allez dans le même sens que moi.

D'excellentes traductions proposées.   Bravo!


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## catay

Icetrance said:


> Quant à la compréhension de cette expression française, on dirait que vous allez dans le même sens que moi.
> 
> D'excellentes traductions proposées.  Bravo!


 Bonne nuit. Beaux rêves.


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## Icetrance

lgd190 said:


> salut à tous,
> 
> pour moi la meilleure traduction c'est l'avant-dernière de icetrance, à savoir :
> 
> *His determination to draw up a European charter for soccer - impossible without the players' consent - can only be expected.*
> 
> il ne s'agit pas de la grande histoire au sens marxiste, mais de ce qu'on attend du fameux footbaleur engagé, donc la notion de "expectation" est ce qui rend le mieux cette idée d'après moi.
> 
> la toute dernière traduction de icetrance trahit totalement l'esprit du texte à traduire et passe à côté du sens je crois (il s'agit de football après tout, pas de philosophie transcendentale)



Is it really about being in synch with the times? I don't think so. 

I now believe that "va dans le sens de l'histoire" = is what can be expected, considering how the history of the game has been evolving. It's what one would logically think would happen next, considering past events. It doesn't run contrary to historical evolution, but rather it is in line with it.

I'd translate this way:

*His determination to draw up a European charter for soccer - impossible without the players' consent - is to be expected, considering the sport's evolution.* 

At first, I think it sounds ok in English, but this seems to be what the French is really saying.


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## Icetrance

I don't think one even needs to say "considering/in light of the sport's evolution". It would be clearly implied. 

*His determination to draw up a European charter for soccer - impossible without the players' consent - is to be expected.*

What say you?


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## Kelly B

It sounds pretty free, to me.

Didn't like my earlier one, hm? How about
...is consistent with the history of the sport.


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## Icetrance

Kelly B said:


> It sounds pretty free, to me.
> 
> Didn't like my earlier one, hm? How about
> ...is consistent with the history of the sport.



Kelly B, I wouldn't say your translation is completely wrong, but I think that the idea of expectation is very, very important. 

va dans le sens de l'histoire (ce contexte) =  It's the (next) expected thing/event, considering the sport's evolution. 

I take back what I just said in my last post.

I like: "is to be expected in light of the sport's evolution"

I agree that simply saying "is to be expected" is too free, and thus incorrect.


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## Icetrance

I'm no longer comfortable with this translation:

His determination to draw up a European charter for soccer - impossible without the players' consent - is to be expected, considering the sport's evolution.

I think that saying "His determination mimics the current trend of thought..." may be more accurate.

Doesn't it really mean that this footballer's determination is attuned to the way the history of the sport has been evolving? or is attuned with the how society has been evolving in the regard?


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## Cath.S.

> or is attuned with the how society has been evolving in the regard?


IMO this is what it means, but then, I've said so before.
Rien de nouveau sous le soleil. 



> I think that saying "His determination mimics the current trend of thought..." may be more accurate.


So do I.


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## Icetrance

egueule said:


> IMO this is what it means, but then, I've said so before.
> Rien de nouveau sous le soleil.
> 
> 
> So do I.



Merci Egueule!

Rien de nouveau sous le soleil pour toi, mais, heureusement pour moi, le soleil a enfin brillé! J'en arrive à cette conclusion: 

Le mot "l'histoire" ne semble pas se rapporter à l'histoire du sport, mais plûtot de l'évolution de la société à l'endroit de ce sport.  

C'est sans doute ma traduction préférée car elle est sans doute la plus precise au niveau du sens.

J'avoue que j'aurais dû prêter plus d'attention à mes instincts.


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## Eli125

Hello!

How do you understand the meaning of _aller dans le sens de l'Histoire_?

Nous sommes bons, pare que nous allons dans le sens de l'Histoire

Does it mean that we will be rembered?

Thanks!


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## JeanDeSponde

_We are riding the tide of History_ : the meaning is that History will agree with us.


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## echhho

Just to contribute to this thread for future reference, I think there is a notion of being good at guessing what should be done to anticipate future trends. So, it's not just natural, but also clever. It's opposite to saying that they are very conservative and would do things like they have always been done before without questioning.


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