# 發姣



## indigoduck

I was watching a movie and a saw the words 發姣 for the subtitles, but i have no idea what it means and never heard of this ?

I think it's describing a kind of female behaviour, but i'm not certain ?

Thanks.


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## Ghabi

In Mandarin you'd say 浪 "sluttish".


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## NitaHK

It's a verb that means acting or appearing horny.  It's a very common word but a bit rude.


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## xiaolijie

> It's a verb that means acting or appearing horny


I once seen this word "发骚". Is the meaning of 发骚 similar to 发姣?


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## HK people

it means a person who want to have sex with some1


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## BODYholic

xiaolijie said:


> I once seen this word "发骚". Is the meaning of 发骚 similar to 发姣?



发姣 is predominantly Cantonese. While we do have the character 姣 in Chinese, I've never seen it used this way. 发骚 is common, whereas 发浪 is a contemporary slang.


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## Jerry Chan

'姣'本義是美好, '姣好'和'姣美'並不生僻
廣東人說的'發姣', 指人(一般是女士)動了春心, 意欲勾引異性
'姣婆'則指喜歡拋媚眼, '放生電'的女士, 但一般只限flirting, 未到'蕩婦'程度

據說'發姣'本作'發*鱟*', '姣'字因讀音與難寫的'鱟'字相近而被借用, 實在有點兒'蒙冤'
之所以有此說法, 可能因為鱟在春夏交配期, 往往成雙成對, 形影不離, 而肥大的雌鱟常馱著瘦小的丈夫蹣跚而行


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## Ghabi

Jerry Chan said:


> '姣'本義是美好, '姣好'和'姣美'並不生僻


I can't believe that "姣 pretty" and "姣 sluttish" are the same word. The fact that they're written with the same character doesn't mean that they are the same word.



> 據說'發姣'本作'發*鱟*', '姣'字因讀音與難寫的'鱟'字相近而被借用, 實在有點兒'蒙冤',之所以有此說法, 可能因為鱟在春夏交配期, 往往成雙成對, 形影不離, 而肥大的雌鱟常馱著瘦小的丈夫蹣跚而行


So this contradicts the etymology suggested above. But I can't believe this either. I don't know where you got this piece of information, but I have to say that (no offence, man) it's one of the worst "folk etymologies" I've never heard. Etymology is by its very nature speculative, but it has to make sense at least. "發鱟"點可能講得通?**


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## Jerry Chan

Ghabi said:


> I can't believe that "姣 pretty" and "姣 sluttish" are the same word. The fact that they're written with the same character doesn't mean that they are the same word.
> **




I was exactly suggesting they should not be the same word.



Ghabi said:


> So this contradicts the etymology suggested above. But I can't believe this either. I don't know where you got this piece of information, but I have to say that (no offence, man) it's one of the worst "folk etymologies" I've never heard. Etymology is by its very nature speculative, but it has to make sense at least. "發鱟"點可能講得通?**



I was just offering one explanation suggested by others.
I myself am not entirely convinced, but I won't rule out any possibilities.
It's up to you to believe or not believe, but I'd really appreciate it if you'd respect suggestions from others.
So, any good one from you?


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## Ghabi

Jerry Chan said:


> I was exactly suggesting they should not be the same word.


I apologize for misunderstanding you.


> I was just offering one explanation suggested by others.
> I myself am not entirely convinced, but I won't rule out any possibilities.
> It's up to you to believe or not believe, but I'd really appreciate it if you'd respect suggestions from others.
> So, any good one from you?


No, I don't have any etymology. I just take the word as it is, without the urge to invent any etymology. Perhaps it's just my ignorance, but I find it very hard to respect slapdash etymology. In this particular case, "發+鱟" is not even a possible collocation in Chinese (how can we say "發+an animal"? in Chinese) How is it possible for someone to say 發鱟? But again perhaps it's just my ignorance.


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## Jerry Chan

Ghabi said:


> I apologize for misunderstanding you.
> 
> No, I don't have any etymology. I just take the word as it is, without the urge to invent any etymology. Perhaps it's just my ignorance, but I find it very hard to respect slapdash etymology. In this particular case, "發+鱟" is not even a possible collocation in Chinese (how can we say "發+an animal"? in Chinese) How is it possible for someone to say 發鱟? But again perhaps it's just my ignorance.




Language is not always logical, and this is only a slang.
Do you know what 屈機 means? How is '屈 + 機' possible?
But if you'd like to discuss on this, I'll discuss on this:
Never heard of '發 + an animal'? Me neither.
But '發+adjective' is common, right?
And how about an ainmal being used as an adjective to describe human attributes? I can easily think of 狼,鵪鶉.
So, could it be hundreds of years in Canton, 雌鱟, for its mating behaviour, was deemed a slut, and thus 鱟 was referred to as sluttish? And then 發鱟  evolved?
I don't know. But I won't say it's impossible.
And I'll take this as an 'interesting' etymology reference, rather than a 'slapdash' one.


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## Ghabi

Jerry Chan said:


> Do you know what 屈機 means? How is '屈 + 機' possible?


Yes, I know, because I said that when I was a kid ... the old good days. I think it's created on analogy with 打機, 挑機, 操機 etc (by the way, I remember that people first began to use this term when playing the game "Street Fighter II", but I'm not sure).



> But if you'd like to discuss on this, I'll discuss on this:
> Never heard of '發 + an animal'? Me neither.
> But '發+adjective' is common, right?
> And how about an ainmal being used as an adjective to describe human attributes? I can easily think of 狼,鵪鶉.
> So, could it be hundreds of years in Canton, 雌鱟, for its mating behaviour, was deemed a slut, and thus 鱟 was referred to as sluttish? And then 發鱟  evolved?


It's great reasoning. My major objection is that 鱟 is actually pronounced 后 in Cantonese, which is different from 姣. I can't convince myself that the word has acquired a new meaning and a new pronunciation at the same time.



> I don't know. But I won't say it's impossible.
> And I'll take this as an 'interesting' etymology reference, rather than a 'slapdash' one.


I call it "slapdash" because it's not based on any evidence. Etymological research, just like any other kind of research, shoud be based on evidence, not just imagination. I can be easily convinced if there's some evidence (e.g. evidence that people actually used the animal 鱟 as an adjective.) If there's no evidence, I think we'd better choose to err on the side of being too cautious, too conservative, too un-imaginative ...


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## Jerry Chan

Ghabi said:


> Yes, I know, because I said that when I was a kid ... the old good days. I think it's created on analogy with 打機, 挑機, 操機 etc (by the way, I remember that people first began to use this term when playing the game "Street Fighter II", but I'm not sure).
> 
> It's great reasoning. My major objection is that 鱟 is actually pronounced 后 in Cantonese, which is different from 姣. I can't convince myself that the word has acquired a new meaning and a new pronunciation at the same time.
> 
> I call it "slapdash" because it's not based on any evidence. Etymological research, just like any other kind of research, shoud be based on evidence, not just imagination. I can be easily convinced if there's some evidence (e.g. evidence that people actually used the animal 鱟 as an adjective.) If there's no evidence, I think we'd better choose to err on the side of being too cautious, too conservative, too un-imaginative ...



I never intended to start a serious discussion on etymology in the first  place.
I mentioned 發鱟 because I find this saying interesting.
But  I did use "據說", because it's obviously only hearsay and no one knows it  for sure.
A lot of everyday expressions have now lost their origins,  but that doesn't mean people are not interested in stories about how  they came into being, even if there's no clear evidence.
You don't  have to convince yourself to buy what I said. It's not necessary. You  can just laugh it off.
But please do not act as if I'd told a lie.


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## Jerry Chan

各位, 我也知道自己實在囉嗦, 不好意思了.
這裡轉載一篇相關文章
各位看完請一笑置之, 千萬別認真, 就當學點生物學知識就是了

來源:http://cache.baidu.com/c?m=9d78d513...b56&p=833fc015d9c445f44ba4c7710a4c&user=baidu


很多人不曾见过鲎，也不识鲎字。鲎音候，宁波人谈到海味，惯说“鱼虾蟹鲎”， 
许多人都不知道这个“候”字应该怎样写，其实就是鲎。广东人则将这个字读成“豪” 
，因此本地人都叫鲎为“豪”。本地人骂女人淫荡或卖弄风骚，为“发豪”或“豪婆”， 
这是俗语。他们惯常将这个“豪”字写成“姣”，“发姣”或“姣婆”。但是据一位专 
门研究广东方言俗字的潘先生告诉我，这个“姣”字，实在应该写作“鲎”，“姣婆” 
读作“鲎婆”。至于为什么读称鲎婆，且待后面再说 

大约古人认为鲎的最大特点，除了那古怪的如惠文冠如便面的形状以外，便是它的 
雌雄相负的特性。据说鲎是雄小雌大。放在水面，雌的沉到水下，雄的则浮在水面。捉 
了雌渔，雄鲎往往留在旁边不逃走；可是你如果捉了雄的，那雌鲎便咕嘟一声沉到水底 
去了。 
    造成古人所说的鲎雌雄相负的特性的原因，乃是海滨平日不易见到鲎，只有春末夏 
初最多，而这时正是鲎交尾上岸产卵的时期，所以往往“相负而行”；而且雄鲎为了守 
护产卵的雌鲎，往往不肯离开。雌鲎则为了有保护自己后裔的本能，一有危险发生，自 
然先沉到水底去了。 
    旧时，广东潮汕海陆丰一带的海滨居民，对于鲎的这种生活形态很瞧不起，尤其不 
满意雄鲎追随雌鲎，而雌鲎一有危险，却自己先逃命的自私态度。他们用“鲎母”来谩 
骂一个他们所瞧不起的女人，这也就是前面所说的“发姣”和“姣婆”，应该写成“鲎 
婆”和“发鲎”的原因。 
    又因为在海滨捉鲎，往往一捉就是一对，因此，广东有些地方也用“捉鲎”作为捉 
奸的替代语。


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## indigoduck

口吾 該 口西 Jerry !  Thank you.

囉嗦 is subjective.

I like to believe in: "local knowledge, global reach."

It's possible that locally, it is 囉嗦, but globally it is to contribute to "less ignorance"



Jerry Chan said:


> 各位, 我也知道自己實在囉嗦, 不好意思了.
> 這裡轉載一篇相關文章
> 各位看完請一笑置之, 千萬別認真, 就當學點生物學知識就是了
> 
> 來源:http://cache.baidu.com/c?m=9d78d513...b56&p=833fc015d9c445f44ba4c7710a4c&user=baidu
> 
> 
> 很多人不曾见过鲎，也不识鲎字。鲎音候，宁波人谈到海味，惯说“鱼虾蟹鲎”，
> 许多人都不知道这个“候”字应该怎样写，其实就是鲎。广东人则将这个字读成“豪”
> ，因此本地人都叫鲎为“豪”。本地人骂女人淫荡或卖弄风骚，为“发豪”或“豪婆”，
> 这是俗语。他们惯常将这个“豪”字写成“姣”，“发姣”或“姣婆”。但是据一位专
> 门研究广东方言俗字的潘先生告诉我，这个“姣”字，实在应该写作“鲎”，“姣婆”
> 读作“鲎婆”。至于为什么读称鲎婆，且待后面再说
> 
> 大约古人认为鲎的最大特点，除了那古怪的如惠文冠如便面的形状以外，便是它的
> 雌雄相负的特性。据说鲎是雄小雌大。放在水面，雌的沉到水下，雄的则浮在水面。捉
> 了雌渔，雄鲎往往留在旁边不逃走；可是你如果捉了雄的，那雌鲎便咕嘟一声沉到水底
> 去了。
> 造成古人所说的鲎雌雄相负的特性的原因，乃是海滨平日不易见到鲎，只有春末夏
> 初最多，而这时正是鲎交尾上岸产卵的时期，所以往往“相负而行”；而且雄鲎为了守
> 护产卵的雌鲎，往往不肯离开。雌鲎则为了有保护自己后裔的本能，一有危险发生，自
> 然先沉到水底去了。
> 旧时，广东潮汕海陆丰一带的海滨居民，对于鲎的这种生活形态很瞧不起，尤其不
> 满意雄鲎追随雌鲎，而雌鲎一有危险，却自己先逃命的自私态度。他们用“鲎母”来谩
> 骂一个他们所瞧不起的女人，这也就是前面所说的“发姣”和“姣婆”，应该写成“鲎
> 婆”和“发鲎”的原因。
> 又因为在海滨捉鲎，往往一捉就是一对，因此，广东有些地方也用“捉鲎”作为捉
> 奸的替代语。


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## Ghabi

Jerry Chan said:


> 各位, 我也知道自己實在囉嗦, 不好意思了.


Of course you're not being 囉嗦. That's why we come to this forum: discussing and arguing over linguistic stuff.

It seems to me that the problem of the suggested etymology you quote, like many other supposed etymologies we read on newspaper columns everyday, lies in the fact that one tries to connect two different words which differ both in vowel 韻 and in tone 調. The words 姣 and 鱟 have different vowels and tones in Cantonese. And not just in Cantonese:

-李榮主編《廈門方言詞典》167頁:hau˩鱟; 179頁:hiau˧˥姣,指女子舉止輕佻,作風下流

-劉鎮發《客語拼音字彙》42頁:hau2姣,女子風騷狀;43頁:heu4鱟

-《廣韻》鱟:胡遘切; 姣:胡茅切,淫也

When we have two words that differ in both vowel and tone, we'd better keep them separate. "世上偶合的事情很多,文字上也是這樣。如果不在語音規則上嚴加限制,則必眾說紛紜,莫衷一是,使讀者無所適從" (王力《同源字典》序) 

To make the "鱟-->姣" etymology a valid proposal, we've to assume that 鱟 has become an adjective (which is possible), but then we've also to assume that the word somehow has its pronunciation altered after becoming an adjective. (We use 豬、狗、狼、鵪鶉 as adjectives in Cantonese, but we don't change their pronunciations.) We don't want to assume so much in etymological research. As I say earlier, we'd better choose to err on the side of being too cautious.

當然,我對訓詁音韻這些東西,也只是個大外行,以上說的也只是些不成熟的見解,河伯所謂"吾长见笑於大方之家"這句話,我是敢當的。

PS: I've flipped through some works on Cantonese etymology (some are serious scholarly works, but some are just slapdash works produced to make quick money), but I can't find any discussion concerning the word 姣.


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## Jerry Chan

上回說過了, 我無意進行嚴肅的學術討論
「發姣」來自「發鱟」這個說法，你接受也好，蔑視也罷，悉隨尊便，I don’t care! 

事實上，連我也是半信半疑。
但我們不能不承認，它已形成一派說法。在網上查找一下，會發現認同這一說法的並不在少數，這裡甚至有人堅持「姣婆紙」應作「鱟婆紫」：
http://hk.knowledge.yahoo.com/question/question?qid=7007121001687
了解這一點，我們看到有人寫「發鱟」或「鱟婆」，自然就不會不知所云。


If there's no evidence, I think we'd better choose to err on the side of being too cautious, too conservative, too un-imaginative ...
敬佩你的嚴謹學術精神, but that’s not how things work in the world.
現實中，人們往往相信較不保守，較有想像力的「假話」。現實中，嚴肅的學術著作, 往往在圖書館暗角塵封，而你口中想賺快錢，把民間傳說這等「無稽之談」當一回事的「搵笨之作」，卻最暢銷，這又為什麼？

如果不在語音規則上嚴加限制,則必眾說紛紜,莫衷一是,使讀者無所適從
*恕不苟同。*
支持百花齊放，求同存異。事實上，眾說紛紜，莫衷一是，也比遭到「語言霸權」騎劫好。言語是人民的言語，尤其俚語俗語，只要用者接受，喜歡「升呢」就「升呢」，「O嘴」就「O嘴」，把「鱟」說成「姣」就說成「姣」，誰又有權「嚴加限制」？


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