# "it" as a direct object



## dukaine

אני מדדתי החולצה הזות, אבל אני לא אהבתי את זות.  

"I tried on that shirt but I didn't like it."  Is the above correct?  Does Hebrew use the pronoun "it" as a direct object?


----------



## origumi

I'd say:

מדדתי את החולצה הזאת אבל לא אהבתי אותה.


----------



## dukaine

Is זה ever used as an object pronoun?


----------



## Carrot Ironfoundersson

In such cases you should use את + appropriate ending: מדדתי *את* *ה*חולצה ההיא אבל לא אהבתי *אותה* 

You've asked only about "it" as a direct object, so it can be either 3rd p. fem.(אותה) or 3rd p. masc. (אותו).


----------



## arbelyoni

> Is זה ever used as an object pronoun?




זה is not a pronoun in Hebrew, but it can certainly be an object. Remember that definite direct objects are preceded by the preposition את, e.g: אני אוהב את זה

Direct object pronouns are actually the preposition את inflected with person, quantity and gender:
אותי: me (1st person singular)
אותנו: us (1st person plural)
אותךָ: you (2nd person singular masculine)
אותךְ: you (2nd person singular feminine)
אתכם: you (2nd person plural masculine)
אתכן: you (2nd person plural feminine)
אותו: him (3rd person singular masculine)
אותה: her (3rd person singular feminine)
אותם: them (3rd person plural masculine)
אותן: them (3rd person plural feminine)


----------



## dukaine

arbelyoni said:


> זה is not a pronoun in Hebrew, but it can certainly be an object. Remember that definite direct objects are preceded by the preposition את, e.g: אני אוהב את זה
> 
> Direct object pronouns are actually the preposition את inflected with person, quantity and gender:
> אותי: me (1st person singular)
> אותנו: us (1st person plural)
> אותךָ: you (2nd person singular masculine)
> אותךְ: you (2nd person singular feminine)
> אתכם: you (2nd person plural masculine)
> אתכן: you (2nd person plural feminine)
> אותו: him (3rd person singular masculine)
> אותה: her (3rd person singular feminine)
> אותם: them (3rd person plural masculine)
> אותן: them (3rd person plural feminine)



So, if I'm understanding correctly, you'd never say את זה.  It would just be either third person masculine or feminine direct object pronoun.


----------



## berndf

dukaine said:


> So, if I'm understanding correctly, you'd never say את זה.


He didn't say that; on the contrary he gave an example: אני אוהב את זה. But the sentence means _I love this_ and not _I love it_.


dukaine said:


> It would just be either third person masculine or feminine direct object pronoun.


If you want to say _it_ rather than _this_: yes. I suspect your problem is that you are looking for a neuter pronoun. But Semitic languages completely lack neuter as a grammatical concept (English doesn't have it as a general concept either but it has relics from Old English in its pronomial system). There are only the concepts of masculine and feminine applying to all nouns and when using an object pronoun you can only say _I love him_ or _I love her_.


----------



## dukaine

berndf said:


> He didn't say that; on the contrary he gave an example: אני אוהב את זה. But the sentence means _I love this_ and not _I love it_.
> If you want to say _it_ rather than _this_: yes. I suspect your problem is that you are looking for a neuter pronoun. But Semitic languages completely lack neuter as a grammatical concept (English doesn't have it as a general concept either but it has relics from Old English in its pronomial system). There are only the concepts of masculine and feminine applying to all nouns and when using an object pronoun you can only say _I love him_ or _I love her_.



Thanks; I think I get it now.


----------



## David S

berndf said:


> He didn't say that; on the contrary he gave an example: אני אוהב את זה. But the sentence means _I love this_ and not _I love it_.
> If you want to say _it_ rather than _this_: yes. I suspect your problem is that you are looking for a neuter pronoun.



What if "it" is referring to an idea and not a noun? For example, how would you say, "Do you love that I always wear a hat? --Yes I love it!"


----------



## rosemarino

David S said:


> What if "it" is referring to an idea and not a noun? For example, how would you say, "Do you love that I always wear a hat? --Yes I love it!"



I think you may mean to ask if the Hebrew is the same if "it"/ זה is referring to an abstract idea, quality, or state of being, and not an object.  All of these function as nouns, in this case, as the object of the verb "to love." 

I suspect the Hebrew  could still be את זה in your example.
I believe, however, that it might be better to use זאת when referring to an abstract idea, quality, or state of being, as in your example.   I hope some native speakers will tell us if this is right.


----------



## arielipi

ok!!
for the hat example: differentiate between what is technically correct and what is actually spoken...

ata ohev et ze she ani tamid hovesh kova?
- ken ani ohev et ze!

thats spoken.

now im not really good with knowing which word is noun/adjective/etc except for verbs[obviously].
the main idea is that[aside from sex] ze can replace that and this and it depending on the sentence.

if its a known and metaphorically/physically "here" then id say ze as in it.
if its a 3rd p id say et+body type[ he she you etc] as in that.
cant think of something better currently, if i come across anything ill post here.


----------



## arbelyoni

> I suspect the Hebrew could still be את זה in your example.
> I believe, however, that it might be better to use זאת when referring to an abstract idea, quality, or state of being, as in your example. I hope some native speakers will tell us if this is right.



You're right, both זה and זאת are used.
זה is more common and productive in Modern Hebrew, while זאת sounds higher and is mainly used in fixed phrases (בכל זאת, למרות זאת, זאת אומרת).
זה is both endophoric and exophoric, while זאת is endophoric only:

אתה אוהב *את זה* שאני תמיד חובש כובע?
כן, אני *אוהב זאת*/ כן, אני *אוהב את זה*

Read more here: http://huji.academia.edu/rivkahalev..._linguistics._Brill_Leiden_to_appear_in_2011_ (second page, last paragraph)


----------



## rosemarino

Thank you, that's very interesting, arbelyoni.

But I don't really understand why את is not required in the example with זאת below.  Isn't it also acting as a direct object and therefore requiring את?



arbelyoni said:


> כן, אני *אוהב זאת*/ כן, אני *אוהב את זה*


----------



## arielipi

zot is more of high-level word, you can add et to the sentence but then itll be regular-level.
translation would be - i like that      \    i like this.
                                   ohev zot  \   ohev et ze.
when that directly bring the subject and this is of the known subject.
thats pretty much the same... zot is referring the thing in question whilst et ze refers to the thing being questioned.


----------



## arbelyoni

> But I don't really understand why את is not required in the example with זאת below. Isn't it also acting as a direct object and therefore requiring את?



I've never really noticed this before... Yes, זאת is still a definite direct object but it doesn't require את; I don't know why.
If you add את then it changes the meaning: אני אוהב את זאת doesn't sound flowery, and the object is no longer neutral [I love this one (f.)].

Apparently this phenomenon has its roots in the bible:
שִׁמְעוּ-זֹאת בֵּית-יַעֲקֹב (Isaiah 48:1)
מִי בָכֶם, יַאֲזִין זֹאת; יַקְשִׁב וְיִשְׁמַע, לְאָחוֹר (Isaiah 42:23)
אַף-אֲנִי אֶעֱשֶׂה-זֹּאת לָכֶם (Leviticus 26:16)
כִּי בֶן-מָוֶת הָאִישׁ הָעֹשֶׂה זֹאת (Samual 2 12:5)


----------



## arielipi

*fluently and not flowery


----------



## arbelyoni

> *fluently and not flowery



Flowery (speech, writing...): מליצי


----------



## arielipi

קיבלתי.
אם כי גם מה שאני אמרתי נכון.
+1


----------

