# Etymology: Fulan



## Abu Rashid

Split from here. 


Tajabone said:


> Hello,
> 
> Indeed, we use seen *س* as a variable (in maths, physics and chemistry).
> X Y Z are rendered as *س ع ص*. (when you're doing chemistry or maths for instance). It is, at least, the way I was taught.
> When we want to refer to someone (as X is speaking) we use *فلان* flaan (from fulann) in Algeria.
> 
> 
> 
> jdibrahim said:
> 
> 
> 
> Interestingly fulan comes from Greek. So I think the two cultures have influenced one another a lot. It is still not clear why the Arabs used shay? for X although its meaning suggests an unkown quantity. But that's etymology and it remains speculation after all. You can never be sure about time and place of the borrowing.
> Jamshid
Click to expand...


Do you have a reference for this? Can you give any idea as to when it was supposedly borrowed?


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## Arrius

*Interestingly fulan comes from Greek. (jdibrahim)*

*Do you have a reference for this? *
*Can you give any idea as to when it was supposedly borrowed? (Abu Rashid)*


The Dictionary of the Spanish Royal Academy agrees that the Spanish *fulano* is from Arabic, but mentions the (Ancient) Egyptian words _pw rn_ for _*this man*_ as a possible ultimate source (_though admittedly the Ptolomeys and Alexandria were Greek):_

*"fulano**, na**.*
(Del ár. hisp. _fulán_, este del ár. clás. _fulān,_ y este quizá del egipcio _pw rn_, este hombre)."


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## Abu Rashid

Arrius, what is the meaning of fulano in Spanish? Google translation doesn't translate this word, it just leaves it as is.

btw, it was jdibrahim who claimed it was Greek not tajabone.


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## Chazzwozzer

> Interestingly fulan comes from Greek.


Well, my etymological dictionary also notes that Greek has borrowed the word from Aramaic. (the word for "et cetera")


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## jdibrahim

Abu Rashid said:


> Arrius, what is the meaning of fulano in Spanish? Google translation doesn't translate this word, it just leaves it as is.
> 
> btw, it was jdibrahim who claimed it was Greek not tajabone.



I read about Fulan some time ago and can't now find the source. I will certainly come back if I find it. Lots of other words are from Greek. Nearly all Arab currency words: Fils pl. Fuluus are of foreign origin (most of them from Greek or Persian or other sister languages. Anyway fulaan or filaan doesn't sound Arabic to me but there are some words coined by analogy like: 3illaan, filtaan..
Jamshid


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## Arrius

Originally Posted by *Abu Rashid*
Arrius, what is the meaning of fulano in Spanish? Google translation doesn't translate this word, it just leaves it as is.

_Señor Fulano_ means the same as _Sayyid Fulan_ in Arabic or _Mr Whatsisname (N.N./No Name)_ in English._ Es un_ _fulano_ means _he is a nobody, a nonentity,_ _a loser_ but _una fulana_ is a woman of very doubtful morals or one slandered as being such.
btw, it was jdibrahim who claimed it was Greek not tajabone.
Relevant posting now appropriately amended with apologies to those concerned.


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## Spectre scolaire

jdibrahim said:
			
		

> Interestingly fulan comes from Greek.


 And how would this word be written in Greek?




			
				Chazzwozzer said:
			
		

> Well, my etymological dictionary also notes that Greek has borrowed the word from Aramaic. (the word for "et cetera")


You probably mean the other way round.  

Be it _relata refero_ to or from whichever language, I just don’t recognize any _Greek_ word in the process. The words _peloní elmoní_ mentioned by Nişanyan (which I suppose is _Chazzwozzer_’s source), don’t really mean anything unless you see how it is written in Greek. The structure of _peloní_ and _elmoní_ is unmistakably Greek, and yet they defy analysis.
 Unfortunately, I don’t have access to _Liddel Scott-Jones_ for the time being... ​


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## Spectre scolaire

Could it possibly be ελεήμων [eleémon], “merciful”? The root is the same as in κύριε ελέησον, “Kyrie eleison”. But then, what about the semantic aspect? And how did a [p] (becoming [f] in Arabic) come into the bargain?!
 ​


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## jdibrahim

Spectre scolaire said:


> Could it possibly be ελεήμων [eleémon], “merciful”? The root is the same as in κύριε ελέησον, “Kyrie eleison”. But then, what about the semantic aspect? And how did a [p] (becoming [f] in Arabic) come into the bargain?!
> ​



This is nothing special P always changed to f in old Arabic (now it changes to b) just take the Arabic word Fardaws: paradise from old Persian cognate with paradise. Platon became ?aflaaTuun, Pars became Faars: Persians and so on...In fact the f sound in fulan suggests Greek origin.
Jamshid


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## Abu Rashid

jdibrahim,



> This is nothing special P always changed to f in old Arabic



I think they were asking how did the "P" get into the word, as it's not in the original Greek suggestion, rather than how did it get Arabicised to "F".

The reason I asked you to provide some reference for this, is because the vast majority of loanwords from Greek into Arabic came about during the Abbasid period, whereas Fulan existed in Arabic long before that, it was used in many Hadith during the time of Muhammad (pbuh). Therefore the Greek origin sounds kind of shaky.


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## Abu Rashid

Arrius,



> _Señor Fulano_ means the same as _Sayyid Fulan_ in Arabic



Mucho Gracias, I am learning a little Spanish at the moment, so when I find Arabic borrowings in Spanish, it helps me to instantly increase my vocabulary a little.


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## jdibrahim

Abu Rashid said:


> jdibrahim,
> 
> The reason I asked you to provide some reference for this, is because the vast majority of loanwords from Greek into Arabic came about during the Abbasid period, whereas Fulan existed in Arabic long before that, it was used in many Hadith during the time of Muhammad (pbuh). Therefore the Greek origin sounds kind of shaky.



That's not true just take qalam "pencil" which is even found in Quran (before Islam ie was known to Muhammad) is of Greek origin. Two other words: daftar and funduq (maybe later I am not sure). In addition Fulan can't be Arabic because there is no Arabic root.
Jamshid


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## Abu Rashid

> That's not true



It's not true that most Greek words in Arabic were borrowed during the Abbasid period? I think it is true. Your one example (of Qalam) certainly doesn't do much to disprove this. Even if you could bring ten substantiated examples, that still wouldn't prove much. Most of the Greek terms in Arabic came about when the scholars of Dar al-Hikmah began translating the works of the ancient Greeks (during the Abbasid period), this is a well known fact. Most of them were used to introduce concepts and technical terminology which just didn't exist in Arabic prior to the translation of those works.



> just take qalam "pencil" which is even found in Quran (before Islam ie was known to Muhammad) is of Greek origin.



Like with Fulan, please bring something to back up these claims. At least give the original Greek word which was supposedly borrowed, you've not done this in either case, which has meant no native Greek speaker can neither confirm nor dismiss your claim.



> Two other words: daftar and funduq (maybe later I am not sure).



Again please bring forth the supposed origin, anybody can just make wild claims about the origins of words. But if you'd like to do so here, you should at least pay us the courtesy of providing the original word from which they've supposedly been borrowed. These two words would probably be more likely candidates though.



> In addition Fulan can't be Arabic because there is no Arabic root



The absence of a root does not prove anything (it can be an indicator though), this is a very simple mistake for you to have made. There are Arabic words which have no known foriegn origin yet which have no verbal root. Likewise there's borrowed nouns which have been fashioned into verbs, and now you can find their "root" in an Arabic dictionary, doesn't mean they're original Arabic words.


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## jdibrahim

I am afraid I simply don't have the time like you. One of the resources I found is : Karl Lokotsch: Etymologisches Wörterbuch der europäischen Wörter orientalischen Ursprungs (German). I will provide more later if I have time.

1. Daftar from Greek Diphthera skin, parchment
2. Funduq from Gr. Pandaka 
3. Qalam from Gr. kalamos (I am not sure about the spelling). This word was known before Islam. This means literacy was somehow prevalent. Not all Arabs were illiterate at that time as some claim. There were contacts with the Greek.
Jamshid


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## modus.irrealis

Qalam seems pretty likely to be from κάλαμος (kalamos) which means "reed" and was used also for "reed pen". (Interestingly, Greek got back καλέμι (kalemi) from Arabic through Turkish.)

I also found online that there is a disputed claim for funduq to go back to πανδοχεῖον (pandocheion) "inn". The other two, I don't know, but (and this might be off-topic) how were Greek words adapted to Arabic -- it's already been brought up that π p became f, but what about vowels and such?


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## jdibrahim

modus.irrealis said:


> Qalam seems pretty likely to be from κάλαμος (kalamos) which means "reed" and was used also for "reed pen". (Interestingly, Greek got back καλέμι (kalemi) from Arabic through Turkish.)
> 
> I also found online that there is a disputed claim for funduq to go back to πανδοχεῖον (pandocheion) "inn". The other two, I don't know, but (and this might be off-topic) how were Greek words adapted to Arabic -- it's already been brought up that π p became f, but what about vowels and such?



I am afraid I don't know much about Greek and etymology often remains speculation because as I said somewhere else we can never be 100% sure of time and place of borrowings. If I have time I will let you know more. Not only from the Greek but the word SiraaT related to street in English is of Latin origin borrowed before Islam found in Quran. So even Quran is not free from foreign vocabulary. The problem is I don't really have time to go back to all the books I read. But I still remember them. Nearly all currency words like Fils, Dinar are of Greek origin but they were adopted later. But there were contacts with different cultures even before Islam and as we know Mecaa was a centre of financial and business activities (Arabs indulged in business from early on).
Best
Jamshid


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## Alijsh

I didn't know *fulan* is of Greek origin. We have it in Persian as well. It's *folân* and is also pronounced *felân*. We have also made a pronoun (*folâni* / *felâni*) from this determiner: *felâni goft* (person X said).


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## modus.irrealis

jdibrahim said:


> I am afraid I don't know much about Greek and etymology often remains speculation because as I said somewhere else we can never be 100% sure of time and place of borrowings. If I have time I will let you know more.



And I on the other hand know virtually nothing about Arabic, but I was hoping to guess what some of the Greek sources for the loanwords were, which is why I was wondering what sort of changes one might expect to a Greek word on its way to Arabic.

I was wondering, though, where the word pandaka you mentioned before comes from, because I can't find it in any of the dictionaries I checked.


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## jdibrahim

modus.irrealis said:


> And I on the other hand know virtually nothing about Arabic, but I was hoping to guess what some of the Greek sources for the loanwords were, which is why I was wondering what sort of changes one might expect to a Greek word on its way to Arabic.
> 
> I was wondering, though, where the word pandaka you mentioned before comes from, because I can't find it in any of the dictionaries I checked.



Usually when a Greek word is borrowed into an Oriental language it finds its way easily into other neighbouring languages sometimes with a change in meaning as with English and German/French False Friends: daftar is an example which means office in Persian whereas in Arabic notebook. Fulan or folan exists in all Oriental Languages. It is no exception. The Greek origin of funduq is as you gave but better πανδοχοc (the last letter is a problem for me to create please forgive me)
Jamshid


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## Abu Rashid

jdibrahim said:


> I am afraid I simply don't have the time like you.


I'm not asking you to write a research paper, just provide the original word. The statement "it's borrowed from Greek" alone doesn't mean much, I'm sure you can appreciate this. Please don't go to any trouble on my account, I am not asking you to look the words up, I'm just suggesting you probably shouldn't make the assertion that they're borrowed if you don't know from what they're borrowed.

Now with the examples you've brought, you've unortunately left out the important one, the one we're here discussing, Fulan. Another reason I'm hesitant to accept this one is that unlike the concepts of writing and money exchange etc. Fulan conveys a concept which would probably exist in a society/language originally as it doesn't refer to a new practise, technology or custom.

Again, I'm not saying it doesn't come from Greek, it may. But what we want here is contributions, not speculations.


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## jdibrahim

I think I contributed more than you are aware of because you didn't even know about Fulan before I started it and etymology will remain a speculation. I repeat if I find the source I will come back. If you don't accept prove otherwise. What I could find out so far is origin unknown. Usually etymological dictionaries give origin unknown without  further detail. Arab origin is out of question. As I said earlier it is found in nearly all Oriental languages. Unfortunately there is no etymological dictionary of Arabic till now.
Jamshid


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## Forero

Spanish for Tom, Dick, and Harry (anybody and his brother) is "Fulano, Mengano, y Zutano".  Perhaps they are from the same source?


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## Abu Rashid

> I think I contributed more than you are aware of because you didn't even know about Fulan before I started it


I didn't even know about "fulan"? That the word exists? Or that you assert it is of Greek origin?



> If you don't accept prove otherwise.


Well, I cannot prove it's not of Greek origin, but I can demonstrate that it has more of a Semitic origin than a European one. The Hebrew word for "so and so" is peloni, which according to Strong's Hebrew Concordance is cognate with Arabic فلان and as you yourself mentioned:



> As I said earlier it is found in nearly all Oriental languages.


Now I would assume that if it is present in "nearly all" oriental languages, yet only 1 European language (unless you know of cognates in other European languages), then it's more likely to be of oriental origin.

So the earliest example I have of a Semitic term is Hebrew's "Peloni" which  dates back at least to about 800 BCE. being found in the first verse of the 4th chapter of the Book of Ruth from the OT.

Can you provide an earlier Greek reference?


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## Alijsh

jdibrahim said:


> Usually when a Greek word is borrowed into an Oriental language it finds its way easily into other neighbouring languages sometimes with a change in meaning as with English and German/French False Friends: daftar is an example which means office in Persian whereas in Arabic notebook.


daftar also means notebook in Persian. Do you know Persian?


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## jdibrahim

I pretty much suspect that Arabic [f] in fulan was originally [p]. Fulan cannot simply be Arabic. Anyway I think this case needs more research and I would like to leave it at this point for people who are familiar with sister languages (if a loan not cognate from Hebrew: peloni) or neighbouring foreign languages unless I find new material. Daftar is also found in almost all Oriental languages but it is still Greek.
Jamshid


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## jdibrahim

Alijsh said:


> daftar also means notebook in Persian. Do you know Persian?



yes, a little


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## jdibrahim

Forero said:


> Spanish for Tom, Dick, and Harry (anybody and his brother) is "Fulano, Mengano, y Zutano".  Perhaps they are from the same source?



Yes, as folketymology Zutano is said to be from German "so getan: do/pretend as if" or is a proper name: Filanu e Martino.


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## Abu Rashid

jdibrahim,



> I pretty much suspect that Arabic [f] in fulan was originally [p]. Fulan cannot simply be Arabic.



The "F" and "P" issue does not preclude the word from originally being Arabic. Look at the Arabic word Falasteen for instance. It comes from Semitic Filistia, borrowed into European languages as Phillistine/Palestine and then returned back into Semitic languages as Falasteen. Also it's quite feasible the Arabic and Hebrew words have a common Semitic ancestor which have just developed with slightly different pronunciations.

Your claim it simply cannot be Arabic tells us a lot. You have decided from the outset it's not Arabic, and you just want to find anything you can to prove that. Rather than examining the evidence and basing your opinion on the facts.



> Daftar is also found in almost all Oriental languages but it is still Greek



Daftar is a different issue, as it is a new object which the Arabs and other middle easterners weren't really using before. Also I think you'll find Daftar was borrowed into Arabic, and then with the rapid spread of Arabic in the early Islamic period, it spread to the other languages.

Fulan/Peloni on the other hand pre-dates the Greek influence on the region, and therefore it's unlikely that these words would've originated from Greek, unless it was through Egyptian or some other channel.


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## jdibrahim

1. I realise the origin of this word is much more obscure than expected. Also found in modern Spanish: particularly in the invented name "Fulano de Tal".  In Persian fola:n is often paired with his indefinite colleague bahma:n.

  2. Compare Greek peloi in the phrase hoi peloi.


3. Consider the possibility of Semitic peh-lamed-het (English fellah) + loss of het + nun suffix with the meaning "having the attributes of".



That is all I can do so I am not going to take this topic any further and would like to leave it to others for more insight.
Jamshid


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## sinclair001

I found this
*Gothic:* fula* 

*Language:* got. 

*Grammar:* sw. M. (n) 

*Translation (German):* Fohlen, Fµllen (N.) (1) 

*Translation (English):* foal, colt 

*Latin source:* pullus 

*Greek source:* pw~loj 

*Source:* Bi (340-380) 

*Etymology:* germ. *ful¡-, *ful¡n, *fula-, **fulan*, sw. M. (n), Fµllen (N.) (1), Fohlen, Junges; s. idg. *p¡ulos, *p¡los, Sb., Junges, Pokorny 842; vgl. idg. *p¡u-, *p u-, *p³¢-, Adj., Sb., klein, gering, wenig, Junges, Pokorny 842, Lehmann F102 

*Attestations:* Akk. Sg. *fulan* Luk 19,30 CA; Luk 19,33 CA CA (ganz in spitzen Klammern); Luk 19,35 CA2; Mrk 11,3 CA; Mrk 11,4 CA; Mrk 11,5 CA; Mrk 11,7 CA; Dat. Sg. fulin Joh 12,15 CA 
In: http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cach...1+etymology+of+fulan&hl=es&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=co


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## Frank06

Hi,


sinclair001 said:


> I found this
> *Gothic:* fula*
> *Language:* got.
> *Grammar:* sw. M. (n) [snipped]




I fail to see what a similar looking word in Gothic has to do with Arabic 'fulan'. It is not enough to quote from a dictionary, without you giving some explanation on why you would use that quote in this context in the first place.
Please elaborate on this.

Groetjes,

Frank


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## Whodunit

jdibrahim said:


> 2. Compare Greek peloi in the phrase hoi peloi.


 
Did you mean to write οἱ πολλοί (hoi p*ol*loi)? If so, I fail to see a similarity between this and _fulaan_.  Please elaborate upon this.



> 3. Consider the possibility of Semitic peh-lamed-het (English fellah) + loss of het + nun suffix with the meaning "having the attributes of".


 
English _fellah_ comes from Arabic فلاح (fallaa7) (in the meaning of "farmer" or "well-being"?). Again, I don't see any connection to _fulaan_.



> That is all I can do so I am not going to take this topic any further and would like to leave it to others for more insight.


 
I'd like to tell you that if etymological dictionary claim the origin is unknown and you say it is from Greek, we might not be able to follow you. You can't provide a Greek word (nor can I, and we could leave it as it), and you want to tell us that the origin is unknown, I can't understand why you still claim it is from Greek.

As Abu Rashid has already told you, we can_not_ say it is _not_ derived from a Greek, but can you prove the opposite?



Frank06 said:


> I fail to see what a similar looking word in Gothic has to do with Arabic 'fulan'. It is not enough to quote from a dictionary, without you giving some explanation on why you would use that quote in this context in the first place.
> Please elaborate on this.


 
Same here, Frank. _Fohlen_ (cognate with Greek _φῶλος_ - _phôlos_) is from IE *_pôu_- and means "little, a few". So, it is not related to the Semitic word of this thread.


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## elpoderoso

Interesting, I just looked at the link given by Jaxlarus and I noticed:
Arabic Fulan
Spanish/Portuguese Fulano
Iranian Folani
Malaysia Polan
and also Turkish falanca?
I imagine the original is the Arabic but does anyone know what the word means?


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## Arrius

Yes, in Arabic* فلن* (fulan) means someone or other, so-and-so, and does not appear to be connected with anything else in Arabic, so it must come from elsewhere. The Real Academia says about the Spanish _fulano_ with the same meaning _(__Del __ár.__hisp.__ fulán__, __este del__ár.__clás.__ fulān,__ y este __quizá del __egipcio__ *pw rn*, este hombre)._ The Egyptian referred to being that of the hieroglyphics.


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## Outsider

I may be wrong, but I seem to recall that _fulan_ is originally from an African language. Spanish and Portuguese got the word from Arabic.


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## Arrius

The Iberian languages got it from the Arabic which, my source says, got it from the (Ancient) Egyptian_ pw rn (this man)_, which was in fact spoken in Africa. If you don't accept this, consult this fairly recent but indecisive thread on this very word, _fulan_. It is a word that occurs in many languages, sometimes in the form _pulan (_which considering the frequent r/l variation ties up with the Ancient Egyptian):
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=531467&highlight=fulan&page=2


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## jaxlarus

درود از قبرس! احتیاج شما داریم بی زحمت

​


> I'm far from being sure about this, but I believe that the Arabic *fulan *and the subsequent Turkish *falan*, Spanish/Portuguese *fulano*, Indonesian *fulan*, Zulu *fulani *etc derive from the Persian indefinite pronoun *folân *[*فلان*] meaning a certain, such and such (a person), any one.
> 
> I came to this conclusion because pronouns in Farsi are often produced with the suffix *-ân*, which by itself [*آن*] is the demonstrative pronoun that. Other such examples: *bahmân *[*بهمان*] (which means the same as *folân*), *hamân *[*همان*], *hamagân *[*همگان*], *digerân*, *degarân *[*دگران*].


شما چه عقیده دارید؟
 لطفاً به انگایسی جواب بدهید.
سپاسگزارام
​


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## jaxlarus

I'm far from being sure about this, but I believe that the Arabic *fulan *and the subsequent Turkish *falan*, Spanish/Portuguese *fulano*, Indonesian *fulan*, Zulu *fulani *etc derive from the Persian indefinite pronoun *folân *[*فلان*] meaning a certain, such and such (a person), any one. 

I came to this conclusion because pronouns in Farsi are often produced with the suffix *-ân*, which by itself [*آن*] is the demonstrative pronoun that. Other such examples: *bahmân *[*بهمان*] (which means the same as *folân*), *hamân *[*همان*], *hamagân *[*همگان*], *digerân*, *degarân *[*دگران*].

My knowledge of the language is of course quite limited, so I'll start another thread here, hoping the Farsi natives will contribute, even though there was a similar thread here not very long ago.

By the way the assumption that the word derives from Greek seems way too odd for me... Maybe a user with a far better knowledge of classical Greek could solve that mystery for me as well.


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## Kurdistanish

Dorud Barâdar-e Yunâni!

Well I don’t know for sure if the Persian ‘felan’/’folan’ is an Arabic borrowing or not. But if it was a pure Iranian word later borrowed by Arabic, the asserted hypothesis seems to be right. Persian > Arabic, Indonesian, Turkish; Arabic > Spanish/Portuguese. Turkish itself is filled up with Arabic and Iranian loanwords. Existence of such Persian word in Indonesian isn’t improbable. You can find some other loanwords of Iranian origin in this language too (e.g. gandum* < Persian gandom ‘wheat’) as Iranian and Indic traders introduced Islam to Indonesia. Also it’s fairly possible to find it as a loanword in Spanish and Portuguese through Arabic. But the Zulu one could occur causally. 

I cannot stay with the conclusion but also unable to reject it. In addition to the examples: plus Persian ‘bahman’ there exists Kurdish ‘bîsan’ (behman ~ bîsman > bîswan > bîsan ?) ~ ‘filan û bîsan’ which also is used in daily Persian ‘felân o bisân’ along with ‘felân o behmân’. People always use these words together as an expression. Especially ‘behmân’/’bîsan’ is never used solely. If any one could issue any proven connection between ‘behmân’/’bîsan’ and ‘felân’, the hypothesis would be plainly proved.


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## Lugubert

Platts' Urdu and Steingass' Persian dictionary both mark fulân as Arabic.


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## Rajki

Arabic filan, fulan seem to be of purely Semitic origin. Please check out 'Etymology' on the English Wikipedia (There is an Arabic Etymology at the bottom).


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## relativamente

I think the etymology given by the Spanish Real Academia is plausible and the word probably has an Egyptian origin. In fact the Fulani people that nowadays live in western Africa are nomads and some say they lived first near the Nile. Acording to the entry of Wikipedia the name Fulani are given to them by the Hausa people, and so the meaning of "this man" is plausible.


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## mataripis

X as variable, undefined presence of matter or energy. For me that word "Fulan" is synonymous with "Alon" (waves in Tagalog) and "Bulan"(moon in Dumaget).when it refers to a thing and person with no real identity,it is under the influence of changing events such as the influence of moon's magnetic waves to the behavior of humans and other beings.That word "Fulan" i guess is of Aramaic origin.


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## origumi

I think that Arabic Fulan can be pure Semitic. Hebrew has a (possibly) cognate _Ploni_ פלוני that means _a certain (person/place)_. It appears several times in the Bible (Ruth 4:1, 2 Kings 6:8, 1 Samuel 21:3). Always followed idiomatically by another word _almoni_ אלמוני. The sound is somewhat Greek and there are some theories about the word origin. Could Greek originate this word in 1000 BC Hebrew? Not too likely. Is it from Aramaic? The are very few Aramaisms in these parts of the Bible. Arabic influence on Hebrew? Too early. Hebrew loanword in Arabic? The vowel shift is too significant for such assumption. An international term, maybe from Sumerian / Akkadian / Egyptian, maybe via formal procedures (law, science, etc.)? I don't know if there's a good candidate for the source. Therefore a common Semitic origin makes sense.


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## clevermizo

origumi said:


> I think that Arabic Fulan can be pure Semitic. Hebrew has a (possibly) cognate _Ploni_ פלוני that means _a certain (person/place)_. It appears several times in the Bible (Ruth 4:1, 2 Kings 6:8, 1 Samuel 21:3). Always followed idiomatically by another word _almoni_ אלמוני.



I think פלוני and فلان must be cognate. فلان can also exist in Arabic as فلاني fulāni which is just the adjective ("nisbah") form ("such-and-such (X)" rather than "so-and-so"). Since the words can be related by regular Semitic sound change rules (Heb /p/ > Ara /f/) (Ara /ā/ > Heb /ō/), we could posit a proto-form *p_lān (where the vowel in _ might be uncertain?). 

I'm not sure what the opinion is on the date of authorship of Ruth (such that it precludes something like a Greek or Persian borrowing). However the composition of Kings is quite old, is it not? I think the writing is old enough there to substantiate an old usage for this word.

I'm not sure how likely it is that the measure [C1 _ C2 ā C3] would be used for a "person" (at least from my experience with Arabic templates. Usually a person is C1 ā C2 i C3 or C1 a C2 C2 ā C3 or some of the other participial and adjective forms like C1 a C2 ī/ū C3 or mimated participles). So it could be an early borrowing into Semitic. But the regular sound correspondences between the two words are difficult to ignore, and make borrowings from Greek or Persian (or Tagalog, for that matter ) difficult for me to swallow because these would be relatively late borrowings.


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