# meno che per il conte



## theartichoke

Hi everyone,

I've looked through various "meno che" threads, and while I might have missed something, I'm still puzzling over how it works in this sentence, which relates a story told by a woman who used to work for an aristocratic family, now all dead and buried. She still tends their tomb, talks to _le polveri delle contessine_, _diceva un _requiem _per ciascuna per non fare ingiustizie, meno che per il conte, porcone da vivo e non da morto. 

Meno che _here seems to mean that she says a _requiem_ for the Count too, including him in her desire to be fair to everyone, with the justification that although he was a pig while he was alive, his piggishness (I'll find a better word) doesn't continue into death. But can _meno che_ mean "not even"? I'd initially assume she did _not _pray for the Count, but that wouldn't make sense: why say he's not a pig when he's dead? Does the construction work something like "she would say a _requiem_ for each of them, so as not to commit injustices, not even towards the Count, a pig in life and not in death"? (Obviously, I'd put it into idiomatic English -- I'm just translating it literally here to see if I've understood how the sentence is constructed.)


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## ohbice

_per ciascuna meno che per..._
Una preghiera per ciascuna delle contessine sepolte, ma nessuna preghiera per il conte.
He was a laid man.


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## Mary49

"Except for the count".
Meno che - Sinonimi - Virgilio Sapere
"...*eccetto*, *tranne*, *fuorché*, *salvo*,...".

@ohbice  Cosa intendi per "laid man"? Che cosa significa "laid"?


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## merse0

Per renderla più semplice possibile:
_Una preghiera per ciascuna delle contessine sepolte, ma non per il conte, porcone da vivo e non da morto._


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## ohbice

Mary49 said:


> @ohbice  Cosa intendi per "laid man"? Che cosa significa "laid"?


Pensavo a osceno, laido... 
Vuoi dire che mi sono inventato un termine inesistente?


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## Mary49

ohbice said:


> Pensavo a osceno, laido...
> Vuoi dire che mi sono inventato un termine inesistente?


Credo di sì  Prima di chiedere ho cercato, ma non ho trovato nulla...


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## Pietruzzo

theartichoke said:


> _Meno che _here seems to mean that she says a _requiem_ for the Count too,


I agree with you that, on the basis of the context, you would expect something like "e lo stesso faceva per il conte, porcone da vivo e non da morto". Unfortunately "meno che per il conte" can't mean that. Unless she said more than one requiem for the count. She said one prayer for each of the countesses, fewer than for the count.


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## theartichoke

Well, this is surprising, and also puzzling. I had initially read _meno che per il conte _as meaning "except for the count": i.e., she prayed for each of his daughters, but not for him, because he was a _porcone_. And then that _porcone da vivo e non da morto _made me think I had to be wrong, when in fact I was right. Do native speakers sense an unspoken "even if" in there? ..._a pig when alive, even if not when dead._ That would be one way I could make it sound like it made sense.

Incidentally, the Count _was _a "laid" man: he got laid over and over and over again by all sorts of women he shouldn't have got laid by.


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## bicontinental

Actually I thought it would make sense if she said more prayers for the count, the 'giant pig' who presumably, as such, would need more prayers, right? I was under the impression that she said a/one requiem for _each_ of the countesses, for the sake of fairness, [which was] less than for the count, who was a 'porcone' in life and/but not in death.

edit:...and based on the specific type of porcone you tell us he was (#8) it also explains why he is no longer a pig in death....


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## theartichoke

bicontinental said:


> Actually I thought it would make sense if she said more prayers for the count, the 'giant pig' who presumably, as such, would need more prayers, right? I was under the impression that she said a/one requiem for _each_ of the countesses, for the sake of fairness, [which was] less than for the count, who was a 'porcone' in life and/but not in death.
> 
> edit:...and based on the specific type of porcone you tell us he was (#8) it also explains why he is no longer a pig in death....


That hadn't occurred to me at all, though now I see that Pietruzzo suggests it as a (unlikely?) possibility in #7. The Count had 9 daughters, so the character said 9 requiems, one for each daughter, but said at least 10 for the Count, because he'd need them to get out of purgatory?  It kind of makes sense! What do others think? Part of this might hinge on something else I was wondering about, which was exactly which prayer this _requiem_ is. Obviously, they're not requiem masses (she's saying them herself, not having them said by a priest). Is there a specific prayer called a _requiem _that Catholics say to aid the souls of the dead?


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## bicontinental

theartichoke said:


> Is there a specific prayer called a _requiem _that Catholics say to aid the souls of the dead?


I am Lutheran, but maybe one of our Catholic WR friends can weigh in. There is this though,
Eternal Rest Prayer for the Dead | The Catholic Company®


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## theartichoke

bicontinental said:


> I am Lutheran, but maybe one of our Catholic WR friends can weigh in. There is this though,
> Eternal Rest Prayer for the Dead | The Catholic Company®


This looks entirely possible. It's short enough that one could say nine of them. Or nineteen.


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## rrose17

ohbice said:


> He was a laid man.


theartichoke made a funny joke saying he had gotten laid a lot in his lifetime but just to be sure you can't use "laid" this way.


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## Pietruzzo

theartichoke said:


> This looks entirely possible. It's short enough that one could say nine of them. Or nineteen.


The version I know is even shorter: "L'eterno riposo dona loro, o Signore,
e splenda ad essi la luce perpetua.
Riposino in pace. Amen".


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## bicontinental

Pietruzzo said:


> "L'eterno riposo dona loro, o Signore,
> e splenda ad essi la luce perpetua.
> Riposino in pace. Amen".


That's beautiful, Pietruzzo!


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## Pietruzzo

theartichoke said:


> now I see that Pietruzzo suggests it as a (unlikely?) possibility in #7.


It's hard to say what is likely or unlikely since the phrase used by the author is rather misleading in any case. If they wanted to say that the woman didn't say any prayer for the count I would have expected "ma non per il conte" since the count is not in the range of the countesses and you can't say "per ognuna delle contessine meno /tranne che per il conte".

On the other hand, if the meaning is that she said more prayers for the count than for the countesses she should have said (at least) "Disse un requiem per ognuna delle contessine, *di* meno che per il conte"


bicontinental said:


> That's beautiful, Pietruzzo!





Spoiler: Off topic



I made my daughter promise that she will change it a bit for me, when that day comes. She will say "riposìno in pace" instead of "ripòsino in pace". So, instead of "let them rest in peace" it will sound like "I hope you take a nap in peace". Amen


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## ohbice

theartichoke said:


> ... but said at least 10 for the Count, because he'd need them to get out of purgatory?  It kind of makes sense! What do others think?


E' un'ipotesi suggestiva  
Aggiungo un altro elemento di riflessione: dato che il Conte amava giacere con tutte le donne che gli capitavano a tiro, è facile pensare che anche la donna che aveva lavorato per la famiglia e che ora prega sulla tomba dei membri fosse vittima degli assalti del Conte.
Da qui la domanda: una donna che fu oggetto delle attenzioni del porcone da vivo, quando il porcone è morto e sepolto cosa prova nei suoi confronti? Sarà lieta che egli sia trapassato o le mancheranno quelle attenzioni?


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## bicontinental

^^


ohbice said:


> Da qui la domanda: una donna che fu oggetto delle attenzioni del porcone da vivo, quando il porcone è morto e sepolto cosa prova nei suoi confronti? Sarà lieta che egli sia trapassato o le mancheranno quelle attenzioni?



I think your point is very well taken, ohbice, however, according to the context given by theartichoke it sounds as if the woman _did_ say more prayers....10 prayers (at least!)... for the Count, more than the total number of prayers for the girls. Regardless of his behavior _da vivo,_ she apparently did not carry a grudge and forgave him, at least while praying, possibly so that "our Father who is in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses.”

Just another hypothesis... 😄


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## Pietruzzo

ohbice said:


> , è facile pensare che anche la donna che aveva lavorato per la famiglia e che ora prega sulla tomba dei membri fosse vittima degli assalti del Conte


The next passage in the book is about that exactly.
.



It is also confirmed that the woman spends a lot of effort in praying for the count, for whatever reason.


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## ohbice

Siamo di nuovo agli sfregamenti di ginocchi... Un tema ricorrente


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## Odysseus54

ohbice said:


> Pensavo a osceno, laido...
> Vuoi dire che mi sono inventato un termine inesistente?



It's a brain-typo from 'laido' and 'lewd'.



theartichoke said:


> That hadn't occurred to me at all, though now I see that Pietruzzo suggests it as a (unlikely?) possibility in #7. The Count had 9 daughters, so the character said 9 requiems, one for each daughter, but said at least 10 for the Count, because he'd need them to get out of purgatory?  It kind of makes sense! What do others think? Part of this might hinge on something else I was wondering about, which was exactly which prayer this _requiem_ is. Obviously, they're not requiem masses (she's saying them herself, not having them said by a priest). Is there a specific prayer called a _requiem _that Catholics say to aid the souls of the dead?



"Requiem aeternam dona eis Domine..."    "Lord, give them eternal rest.."  It's a two-line prayer for the dead.

I doubt she would pray more for the _lewd_ old Count.  And the text does not even hint at it.



ohbice said:


> Siamo di nuovo agli sfregamenti di ginocchi... Un tema ricorrente



Anche qui, mi pare che al n.19 la signora sostiene (vero o falso che sia) che al Conte aveva solo fatto dei massaggi alle ginocchia.  Ginocchia del Conte, 'arrugginite per le troppe notti passate tra l'erba rugiadosa'.  Un cacciatore, forse?  Di cinghiali oltre che di mogli altrui?


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## ohbice

Ciao Ody, la mia battuta era riferita a un altro thread di questi giorni, "dove io strusciavo i ginocchi" ;-)


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## lövastrell

theartichoke said:


> _le polveri delle contessine_, _diceva un _requiem _per ciascuna per non fare ingiustizie, meno che per il conte, porcone da vivo e non da morto_


Per me non c'è dubbio che voglia dire "un requiem per le contessine ma non per il conte". La clausola finale, "da vivo e non da morto", è leggermente inattesa, il che dà più vivacità letteraria al passo. Io la interpreto come un modo molto ellittico per dire questo: mentre le contessine sono trattate dalla protagonista come defunte, quindi si meritano ciascuna la propria preghiera, perché i morti si rispettano, il conte è trattato come se fosse ancora vivo, e quindi per lui niente preghiera. Cosa ne pensi, artichoke?


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## theartichoke

ohbice said:


> Siamo di nuovo agli sfregamenti di ginocchi... Un tema ricorrente


  

I'm glad you all were still working on this while I was down with the Great Canadian Internet Outage yesterday. It sounds like at least most of the native speakers read the line to mean the Count did _not _get a prayer, which does make a certain sense: other than the fact that the woman in question swears she never slept with him (and there's no mention of him harassing or pursuing her), everything else in the story she tells implies she hasn't forgiven him, particularly for how he treated his daughters. I can almost wrap my head around lövastrell's reading of the problematic "e non da morto" -- something along the lines of "never mind the fact that he's dead: what matters is how he behaved when he was alive....and he was a filthy old pig." That said, she _is _a good Catholic, and a generous, good-hearted person (_and _he never wronged her personally) so it's not impossible that while she's still indignant about his behaviour all these years later, she nonetheless prays for his soul. Let's say the context is not entirely decisive.

Since it's all not exactly clear in Italian, I figure I'll make the first part straightforward in English (something like "...but none for the Count....") and leave the second part enigmatic ("a filthy pig in life, not in death"). Or, if I can't resist, I might sneak a tiny "if" in there: "a filthy pig in life, if not in death."


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## Pietruzzo

theartichoke said:


> It sounds like at least most of the native speakers read the line to mean the Count did _not _get a prayer,


Just for the record, I am the one exception.


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## theartichoke

Pietruzzo said:


> Just for the record, I am the one exception.


I took #16 to mean that you were on the fence, as it doesn't clearly say either thing. Correct?


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## Pietruzzo

theartichoke said:


> I took #16 to mean that you were on the fence, as it doesn't clearly say either thing. Correct?


I jumped over the fence in post #19.


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## Mary49

Se per ognuna delle contessine veniva recitato *un *requiem, come poteva essere recitato "*meno di un* requiem" per il conte? Mezzo requiem? Un quarto di requiem?  
Mi pare logico che "meno che" significhi "tranne / eccetto / fuorché", come già detto nel post #3.


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## theartichoke

Ah -- right, I missed this: "It is also confirmed that the woman spends a lot of effort in praying for the count, for whatever reason." Since the passage you posted doesn't seem to confirm this, at least not to me, I'm curious to know what makes you think that her efforts were spent in praying for the Count, specifically, as opposed to praying for his daughters and tending to the family tomb in general. Did I miss something elsewhere in the text?



Mary49 said:


> Se per ognuna delle contessine veniva recitato *un *requiem, come poteva essere recitato "*meno di un* requiem" per il conte? Mezzo requiem? Un quarto di requiem?
> Mi pare logico che "meno che" significhi "tranne / eccetto / fuorché", come già detto nel post #3.



Since the Count had 9 daughters, I think the logic was that it could be read as _un _requiem _per ciascuna _[delle 9]_, _[ma questi 9 requiem erano]_ meno _[del numero] _che _[pregava]_ per il conte_. If someone was suggesting that she prayed _fewer _requiems (be it 8 or 0.5) for the Count than for the daughters -- but not zero -- I must have missed it.


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## lövastrell

theartichoke said:


> it could be read as _un _requiem _per ciascuna _[delle 9]_, _[ma questi 9 requiem erano]_ meno _[del numero] _che _[pregava]_ per il conte_


Ok, but the clause "e non da morto" is odd even on this reading. However, it occurs to me that this reading might better account for the mention of "non far ingiustizie". She's giving him extra-prayers because he needs more, whereas the daughters are on balance more or less the same. Could be. But if I had meant to say this, I'd have simply ended with "per il conte, che era stato un porcone".


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## theartichoke

lövastrell said:


> Ok, but the clause "e non da morto" is odd even on this reading. However, it occurs to me that this reading might better account for the mention of "non far ingiustizie". She's giving him extra-prayers because he needs more, whereas the daughters are on balance more or less the same. Could be. But if I had meant to say this, I'd have simply ended with "per il conte, che era stato un porcone".



In this reading, the "non da morto" simply explains why she prays for him at all, given how much she disapproved of everything he did while he was alive. But it sounds like you're now coming over to the side of "more than 9" as opposed to "none at all," so so much for consensus!


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## Pietruzzo

theartichoke said:


> I'm curious to know what makes you think that her efforts were spent in praying for the Count, specifically, as opposed to praying for his daughters


Because of the passage "Vedendola rossa e in calore, accovacciata là sopra qualcuno aveva malignato che il conte..". I understand that people were suspecting she was one of the count's lovers because they saw her praying a lot next to his tomb. My opinion.


Mary49 said:


> Se per ognuna delle contessine veniva recitato *un *requiem, come poteva essere recitato "*meno di un* requiem" per il conte?


Recitava un requiem per ognuna delle contessine, meno di quanti ne recitava per il conte, perchè da vivo era un porcone ma ora era morto.


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## Mary49

Pietruzzo said:


> Recitava un requiem per ognuna delle contessine, meno di quanti ne recitava per il conte, perchè da vivo era un porcone ma ora era morto.


Sì, hai ragione, avevo fatto un po' di confusione...
Resto comunque della mia idea.


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## lövastrell

theartichoke said:


> But it sounds like you're now coming over to the side of "more than 9" as opposed to "none at all," so so much for consensus!


Più leggo l'interpretazione di Pietruzzo più mi sembra convincente... Però continuo a non trovarne una che renda le azioni del personaggio perfettamente coerenti. Supponiamo che preghi di più per il conte, benché disapprovi la sua condotta; perché lo fa? Perché il conte ha peccato di più e quindi ha più bisogno d'aiuto? Ma allora perché aggiungere "e non da morto", come dicevo prima? O forse prega di più per il conte perché il conte ha uno status superiore alle sue figlie, e la differenza di status non è annullata dalla morte (mentre lo è il fatto che il comportamento del conte da vivo fosse riprovevole)? Sia come sia, il testo è troppo ellittico per decidere.


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## theartichoke

Pietruzzo said:


> Because of the passage "Vedendola rossa e in calore, accovacciata là sopra qualcuno aveva malignato che il conte..". I understand that people were suspecting she was one of the count's lovers because they saw her praying a lot next to his tomb. My opinion.


I think the point is that she went to the tomb to talk to and pray for the daughters, whom she'd pitied immensely, but since the whole family was buried in the same tomb (and everyone knew the Count's reputation), people spread rumours that she was mourning the loss of her lover instead.


lövastrell said:


> Più leggo l'interpretazione di Pietruzzo più mi sembra convincente... Però continuo a non trovarne una che renda le azioni del personaggio perfettamente coerenti. Supponiamo che preghi di più per il conte, benché disapprovi la sua condotta; perché lo fa? Perché il conte ha peccato di più e quindi ha più bisogno d'aiuto? Ma allora perché aggiungere "e non da morto", come dicevo prima?


If Pietruzzo and Bicontinental (#9) are right, it mean that she prays for the Count because even though he was a _porcone da vivo_, now that he's dead he's just a suffering soul in purgatory (and no longer chasing women), so he needs plenty of prayers, given what a terrible sinner he was, _and _she does not object to praying them, given that he's dead and thus no longer able to practice his filthy habits. I'm starting to like this interpretation because it a) fits with the character's overall good-heartedness, and b) means I'm not tempted to pretend that _e non da morto _is a misprint for _se non da morto_.


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## Odysseus54

theartichoke said:


> If Pietruzzo and Bicontinental (#9) are right, it mean that she prays for the Count because even though he was a _porcone da vivo_, now that he's dead he's just a suffering soul in purgatory (and no longer chasing women), so he needs plenty of prayers, given what a terrible sinner he was, _and _she does not object to praying them, given that he's dead and thus no longer able to practice his filthy habits. I'm starting to like this interpretation because it a) fits with the character's overall good-heartedness, and b) means I'm not tempted to pretend that _e non da morto _is a misprint for _se non da morto_.



True, but in that case I think you would need something stronger than a comma between

_diceva un _requiem _per ciascuna per non fare ingiustizie _

and

_meno che per il conte, porcone da vivo e non da morto._

You would need a period or a semicolon.  And the whole sentence would remain somewhat ellyptical.  

It's hard to tell.  It's not Leopardi or Manzoni or Calvino, or even Verga, where every word counts.  Here they write like they talk and banter in Emilia-Romagna.


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## elroy

I think there may be a grammatical reason to rule out the “except for” reading: “ciascun*a*” is feminine, so he’s not included in “un _requiem_ per ciascuna” and therefore can’t be excepted.  “one requiem for each daughter except for the father” makes no sense; “one requiem for each daughter except for _the youngest [daughter]_” would make sense.  The person who is excepted has to be part of the group referred to earlier.


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## lövastrell

elroy said:


> The person who is excepted has to be part of the group referred to earlier.


Grammatically speaking, this would clinch the case (irrespective of ciascuna being feminine). But the whole sentence is very colloquial, and I can imagine someone saying it with the "except" sense in mind.


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## Odysseus54

Now that we've dealt with the grammar, I would add that lexically the expression 'meno che', especially in that colloquial register, has more often than not  a strong idiomatic connotation of 'except', 'with the exception of', which tends to override the result of 'meno + che' as separate words, _a meno che_ il contesto non risolva l'ambiguita'.

"Il nonno diede 10 euro ai nipoti, meno che a Giovanni"

"... perche' era stato cattivo"

".. a cui ne aveva invece dati 20"


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## theartichoke

Thirty-nine posts later, I feel I'm no closer to knowing whether the character said _more _prayers for the Count than she did for his daughters, or none at all!  I can't remember ever having run into a line with two possible meanings that were _opposite_ to each other. Odysseus and anyone else who joined later on, I assume you agree with the other native speakers back in the early posts that my suggestion (in #1) of "not even" is grammatically impossible? I.e., _per non fare ingiustizie, meno che per il conte _can't possibly mean _so as not to commit injustices, not even towards the Count_? 

The one thing that still makes no sense to me if we take "meno che" to mean "except" is that _porcone da vivo e non da morto_. The woman has just spent the last several pages in a detailed story of all the ways in which the Count was a dreadful _porcone_. It's not like we and her listener in the novel are being told just now that he was a pig when he was alive, to explain the lack of prayers. So the important fact (the new information) here is not _porcone_ but _da vivo e non da morto. _If she _doesn't _pray for him, why state the bizarrely obvious fact that you can't behave like a _porco _when you're dead? It becomes a logical statement--a justification--only if she does pray for him, too.


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## elroy

Could she have meant that the only reason he’s not a pig is that he’s dead?

In other words: “except for the count, who was a pig when he was alive, and no longer one now but only because he’s dead.”

In other words, just because he’s not a pig now doesn’t mean he deserves prayers, because the only reason he’s not a pig is that he’s dead.

So the way he was when he was alive is what counts.


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## Pietruzzo

L'interpretazione proposta da me e altri è l'unica coerente con il testo per come è scritto. Se invece per l'autore/autrice aveva  senso dire, come molti suppongono, "Disse una preghiera per ognuna delle contessine tranne che per il conte" posso solo dire che questo non è l'italiano che conosco io. Amen


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## lövastrell

theartichoke said:


> I assume you agree with the other native speakers back in the early posts that my suggestion (in #1) of "not even" is grammatically impossible?


I think you're conflating "meno che..." and "tantomeno per...". _Non fare ingiustizie, tantomeno per il conte _would be a standard way to say what you suggested. But I think no one would use "meno" as short for "tantomeno".


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## Odysseus54

theartichoke said:


> Thirty-nine posts later, I feel I'm no closer to knowing whether the character said _more _prayers for the Count than she did for his daughters, or none at all!  I can't remember ever having run into a line with two possible meanings that were _opposite_ to each other. Odysseus and anyone else who joined later on, I assume you agree with the other native speakers back in the early posts that my suggestion (in #1) of "not even" is grammatically impossible? I.e., _per non fare ingiustizie, meno che per il conte _can't possibly mean _so as not to commit injustices, not even towards the Count_?
> 
> The one thing that still makes no sense to me if we take "meno che" to mean "except" is that _porcone da vivo e non da morto_. The woman has just spent the last several pages in a detailed story of all the ways in which the Count was a dreadful _porcone_. It's not like we and her listener in the novel are being told just now that he was a pig when he was alive, to explain the lack of prayers. So the important fact (the new information) here is not _porcone_ but _da vivo e non da morto. _If she _doesn't _pray for him, why state the bizarrely obvious fact that you can't behave like a _porco _when you're dead? It becomes a logical statement--a justification--only if she does pray for him, too.



I understand you and I sincerely feel your pain  😉

In Italian we have an expression, "parlandone da vivo", which is used to introduce something unpleasant we are about to say about someone who's already passed away.  The idea being that a dead person is now beyond his living sins, and anyway it's not nice to talk about them.  The 'da vivo e non da morto' we find here could just be an unusual version of the same idea.

Whatever the case, I insist that this story, of which I read a few of the pages from the first chapter to get a feel of style, register etc., is written in a language that is not an exact science.  The text is adorned, or burdened, with non-standard constructions and unusual terms, a couple of which I couldn't even find on dictionaries, so I assume that they may be regionalisms or God knows what. 

I'll stick to my guns.  The interpretation that the Count gets more prayers than the contessine raises in my opinion more problems than it solves.  Specifically, I don't see how the 'porcone da vivo e non da morto' works better in your hypothesis than in the other one.  It limps either way.


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## theartichoke

Odysseus54 said:


> I understand you and I sincerely feel your pain  😉
> 
> In Italian we have an expression, "parlandone da vivo", which is used to introduce something unpleasant we are about to say about someone who's already passed away.  The idea being that a dead person is now beyond his living sins, and anyway it's not nice to talk about them.  The 'da vivo e non da morto' we find here could just be an unusual version of the same idea.


I hear you about the language: it feels like I'm looking things up in every other line. This "parlandone da vivo," an expression I wasn't familiar with, does go some way towards smoothing over the matter. I suppose another way of looking at it, too, is that if Italian native speakers can't agree on what it means, I can't get it wrong any more than I can get it right!   (Well, I guess I could go to Parma and stop 50 people on the street and see if I get consensus there....).


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## MintSyrop

Sono giorni che penso a questo passaggio e sono giunto alla conclusione che l'interpretazione più probabile sia: ogni contessina riceve una preghiera, meno di quante ne riceva il conte (che quindi ne riceve due o più).
Il successivo _porcone da vivo e non da morto_ mi sembra interpretabile così: il conte sarà pure stato un porcone da vivo, ma da morto non lo è più e qualche requiem non lo si nega a nessuno, specie a chi per l'appunto in vita non era un santo e potrebbe aver bisogno di più preghiere del normale per entrare in Paradiso.


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