# Urdu, Hindi: serial killer



## Cilquiestsuens

Hello,

I don't read much the press, either in Urdu or in Hindi. I just wanted to know what is the set translation for _*serial killer*_ in both languages.

Thank you in advance.


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## marrish

For Urdu it should be _silsilah-waar qaatil _but I don't know if it is a set phrase as as far as my memory reaches I remember reading سيريل كلر in press reports.


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## Qureshpor

I think a better equivalent might be "silsilii qaatil" and keep "silsilah-vaar" for the serials on TV!


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## marrish

But Qp SaaHib, there's no such word 'silsilii'!


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## Qureshpor

^ If "zar3" can produce the adjective "zar3ii" why can't we have "silsilah" changing to "silsilii"? If you were writing a "thriller" and you used such words as sansanii", "kapkapii", would n't "silsillii" fit in nicely?


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## Cilquiestsuens

Qureshpor Sb.

I don't know how much acceptance / flak you will get for that creativity of yours, but I fear the idea is just too much 'outside-the-box' for this *hamaaraa tang-nazar aur sang-dil halqah* !

Try to float this word after all, and yes, you have a point. If _uglies_ like *zar3ii* can spread their tentacles everywhere, then why not _*silsilii*_...


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## marrish

Cilquiestsuens said:


> Qureshpor Sb.
> 
> I don't know how much acceptance / flak you will get for that creativity of yours, but I fear the idea is just too much 'outside-the-box' for this *hamaaraa tang-nazar aur sang-dil halqah* !
> 
> Try to float this word after all, and yes, you have a point. If _uglies_ like *zar3ii* can spread their tentacles everywhere, then why not _*silsilii*_...


It has started spreading actually! I found this on Urdu Wikipedia about Jack the Ripper:
جیک سفاح" مشہور زمانہ کردار، ایک ایسا نامعلوم سلسلی قاتل جس نے
[_"jaik saffaaH" mash_huur-e-zamaanah kirdaar, ek aisaa naa-ma3luum silsilii qaatil jis ne..._]. Congratulations QP SaaHib!

There are also several instances on the Net where silsilah-waar qaatil has been used:

کراچی پولس کے مطابق اس نے اس سلسلہ وار قاتل کو گرفتار کر لیا ہے جو اس بہیمانہ جرم میں ملوث ہے۔
​​_karaachii poliis ke mutaabiq is ne us silsilah waar qaatil ko giriftaar kar liyaa hae jo is bahiimaanah jurm meN mulawwas hae._
Here too, in a short note about the Urdu translation (_Megre phaNdaa lagaataa hae_) of a novel by Georges Simenon (_Maigret tend un piège_), a Belgian detective novelist. Perhaps might be interesting for you Cilquiestsuens SaaHib:
ژورژ سیمنوں نے اس ناول میں ایک سلسلہ وار قاتل کی کائنات، نیز اس کے نفسیاتی محرکات کا بڑی خوبصورتی سے جائزہ لیا ہے۔ اس کا فرانسیسی سے اردو ترجمہ شفیق ناز  سے بڑی خوبصورتی سے کیا ہے۔​​_zhorzh siimnoN ne is naavil meN ek silsilah waar qaatil kii kaa'inaat, niiz us ke nafsiyyaatii muHarrikaat kaa baRii xuub-Suuratii se jaa'izah liyaa hae. is kaa firaansiisii se urduu tarjamah Shafiq Naz se [ne] baRii xuub-Suuratii se kiyaa hae._


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## Faylasoof

Qureshpor said:


> I think a better equivalent might be "silsilii qaatil" and keep "silsilah-vaar" for the serials on TV!


 _silsilii qaatil _reminds me of _sunahrii muaqa3; _both seem like perfect examples of so-called _gulaabii urduu_! I guess we all should resort to this form of Urdu to avoid being called _tang-naZar_! 

... and trying to think outside the box, why go for a literal translation? A serial killer is a compulsive killer. We have  اجبار_ ijbaar_ for _compulsion_ which should give اجباری _ijbaari_i for _compulsive_. So perhaps اجباری قاتل_ ijbaarii qaatil_ = compulsive killer = serial killer. 

Perhaps some of us are not so _*tang-naZar*_ so they might at least consider this suggestion.


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## Qureshpor

Would n't "ijbaarii" imply "compulsory" (as opposed to "optional".."ixtiyaarii")  for example, when used for a subject in school/college?

chaliye, "gulaabii Urdu" kam az kam "bhaddii aur past" se to bihtar hii ho gii!


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## Faylasoof

For _compulsory_ we also use _laazimii_. But _ijbaar_ = compulsion. 

Well, not all of us are so _tang-naZar_ and the language is evolving like any other living language so there will be neologisms some of which will take root and others would fall out of use. For the moment I think we can try many forms as long as they are within the rules of grammar and syntax.


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## Cilquiestsuens

Thank you everyone for your replies.

When I wrote *tang-naZar*, I first and foremost was thinking about myself. If someone felt offended, then let me take back those words and say *conservative* instead.

Thanks marrish Sb. for the research and the surprising realization that *silsilii *is actually used by some!

If *silsila-vaar* is more expected and sounds more normal, it doesn’t have the energy and the impact of a word like *silsilii*; which however still sounds a bit odd to my *tang-naZar* ears .

I like your further suggestion, Faylasoof Sb., *ijbaarii*.

And I wonder if our Hindi speaking friends can fill us in about Hindi…


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## littlepond

^ silsilaa-vaar fits in well in Hindi too for anything serial, as in "silsile-vaar dhamaake" for serial blasts; it's a commonly used term. For serial killer, one could say "silsile-vaar qaatil".


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## cherine

Hi,

I was wondering about the possibility of using the word سفاح , when I saw post # 7: 


marrish said:


> It has started spreading actually! I found this on Urdu Wikipedia about Jack the Ripper:
> جیک سفاح" مشہور زمانہ کردار، ایک ایسا نامعلوم سلسلی قاتل جس نے
> [_"jaik saffaaH" mash_huur-e-zamaanah kirdaar, ek aisaa naa-ma3luum silsilii qaatil jis ne..._].


But as you all seemed to use other words, I wanted to ask whether the word سفاح only means killer? Because, as far as I know, it does in itself refers to someone who kills more than one person.


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## Qureshpor

cherine said:


> Hi,
> 
> I was wondering about the possibility of using the word سفاح when I saw post # 7:
> 
> But as you all seemed to use other words, I wanted to ask whether the word سفاح only means killer? Because, as far as I know, it does in itself refers to someone who kills more than one person.


Cherine SaaHibah, in England there was a notorious killer, who had killed many women in London. He came to be known as "Jack the Ripper". saffaaH, I presume is a translation for "ripper" (?)


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## Cilquiestsuens

Qureshpor Sb., _*saffa7*_ is the word used in Arabic for serial killer. (have a look here)


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## Sheikh_14

Cilquiestsuens said:


> Qureshpor Sb., _*saffa7*_ is the word used in Arabic for serial killer. (have a look here)



Would be interesting to know if it could be used as an exotic word in the Urdu language?


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## cherine

(I'll post this in the Arabic thread, but just in case it can be of any help here)
The word saffaa7, in Arabic, comes from the root س-ف-ح which means "to spill" (blood, tears), and it is a صيغة مبالغة so it means someone who spills a lot of blood (=kills many people).

وسَفْحُ الدَّمِ كالصَّبِّ. ورجلٌ سَفّاح: سَفّاكٌ للدِماء (معجم العين)

But, again, even in modern Arabic, there seems to be a new tendency to use literal translation, like قاتل متسلسل , which sounds silly to me.


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## Sheikh_14

cherine said:


> (I'll post this in the Arabic thread, but just in case it can be of any help here)
> The word saffaa7, in Arabic, comes from the root س-ف-ح which means "to spill" (blood, tears), and it is a صيغة مبالغة so it means someone who spills a lot of blood (=kills many people).
> 
> وسَفْحُ الدَّمِ كالصَّبِّ. ورجلٌ سَفّاح: سَفّاكٌ للدِماء (معجم العين)
> 
> But, again, even in modern Arabic, there seems to be a new tendency to use literal translation, like قاتل متسلسل , which sounds silly to me.



Shukran Jazilaan, Cherine lii mufassal jawab.


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## cherine

You're welcome, Sheikh.

Just keep in mind that this is the Arabic meaning. I don't know how does Urdu uses this word. And I'm actually curious about this.


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## Sheikh_14

cherine said:


> You're welcome, Sheikh.
> 
> Just keep in mind that this is the Arabic meaning. I don't know how does Urdu uses this word. And I'm actually curious about this.



Yes indeed, however the quote you have used was entirely in Urdu. Therefore your explication is fictitious and helpful.


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## Sheikh_14

cherine said:


> (I'll post this in the Arabic thread, but just in case it can be of any help here)
> The word saffaa7, in Arabic, comes from the root س-ف-ح which means "to spill" (blood, tears), and it is a صيغة مبالغة so it means someone who spills a lot of blood (=kills many people).
> 
> وسَفْحُ الدَّمِ كالصَّبِّ. ورجلٌ سَفّاح: سَفّاكٌ للدِماء (معجم العين)
> 
> 
> But, again, even in modern Arabic, there seems to be a new tendency to use literal translation, like قاتل متسلسل , which sounds silly to me.



Thus in essence Saffah equates to blood spilling. From a poetic standpoint it could also connote bloodshed or the odd waterworks i.e. sobbing?


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## marrish

marrish said:


> It has started spreading actually! I found this on Urdu Wikipedia about Jack the Ripper:
> *جیک سفاح*" مشہور زمانہ کردار، ایک ایسا نامعلوم سلسلی قاتل جس نے
> [_"*jaik saffaaH*" mash_huur-e-zamaanah kirdaar, ek aisaa naa-ma3luum silsilii qaatil jis ne..._]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Qureshpor said:
> 
> 
> 
> Cherine SaaHibah, in England there was a notorious killer, who had killed many women in London. He came to be known as "Jack the Ripper". saffaaH, I presume is a translation for "ripper" (?)
Click to expand...




cherine said:


> (I'll post this in the Arabic thread, but just in case it can be of any help here)
> The word saffaa7, in Arabic, comes from the root س-ف-ح which means "to spill" (blood, tears), and it is a صيغة مبالغة so it means someone who spills a lot of blood (=kills many people). وسَفْحُ الدَّمِ كالصَّبِّ. ورجلٌ سَفّاح: سَفّاكٌ للدِماء (معجم العين[...]
> 
> 
> cherine said:
> 
> 
> 
> You're welcome, Sheikh. *Just keep in mind that this is the Arabic meaning. I don't know how does Urdu uses this word. And I'm actually curious about this.*
Click to expand...

*جاك السفاح *is how Wiki writes it in Arabic and the Urdu version just follows suit. Apart from it سفاح is never used in Urdu to mean ''serial killer'' and even if it were correct, then it would mean ''ripper'', not a serial killer. The only usage for _saffaaH_ in Urdu is when referring to Abul Abbas as-Saffah, the founder of the Abbasid caliphate. This epithet appears to have had a different meaning.WP: As-Saffāḥ (السفّاح) is a messianic religious title from hadith literature on the mahdi, which, in older Arabic, meant the Generous [1] from the Arabic verb yasfaḥ, "to pour out," implying the future ruler would be liberal in dispensing wealth to Muslims. (In Modern Arabic this word has taken a negative connotation: One who pours out blood/thug).[2] The new caliph appropriated this messianic title in his first sermon in Kufa in 749 AD.[3] A weaker alternative explanation of the title is slaughterer or shedder of blood for his ruthless efforts to eliminate the rival Umayyad family - unlikely, however, since no caliph would have appropriated the title for himself if that were the original meaning.

Another matter is that this word does not exist in Urdu dictionaries and is just the proper name as described above. 

Only two words are used in Urdu texts based on this root: _masfuuH_ and _musaafaHat_. The former, _masfuuH_ retains the basic meaning of ''poured out, spilt'' in _dam-e-masfuuH _whilst _musaafaHat_ is equivalent to _zinaa_.

On the other hand, _saffaaH_ in modern Arabic meaning a person who kills many people doesn't necessarily equate to ''serial killer'', because a mass murderer (who kills many people but not in a series) is also possible.

This is just an overview of what I can say about it but I leave the task to draw conclusions to others


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## Sheikh_14

marrish said:


> *جاك السفاح *is how Wiki writes it in Arabic and the Urdu version just follows suit. Apart from it سفاح is never used in Urdu to mean ''serial killer'' and even if it were correct, then it would mean ''ripper'', not a serial killer. The only usage for _saffaaH_ in Urdu is when referring to Abul Abbas as-Saffah, the founder of the Abbasid caliphate. This epithet appears to have had a different meaning.WP: As-Saffāḥ (السفّاح) is a messianic religious title from hadith literature on the mahdi, which, in older Arabic, meant the Generous [1] from the Arabic verb yasfaḥ, "to pour out," implying the future ruler would be liberal in dispensing wealth to Muslims. (In Modern Arabic this word has taken a negative connotation: One who pours out blood/thug).[2] The new caliph appropriated this messianic title in his first sermon in Kufa in 749 AD.[3] A weaker alternative explanation of the title is slaughterer or shedder of blood for his ruthless efforts to eliminate the rival Umayyad family - unlikely, however, since no caliph would have appropriated the title for himself if that were the original meaning.
> 
> Another matter is that this word does not exist in Urdu dictionaries and is just the proper name as described above.
> 
> Only two words are used in Urdu texts based on this root: _masfuuH_ and _musaafaHat_. The former, _masfuuH_ retains the basic meaning of ''poured out, spilt'' in _dam-e-masfuuH _whilst _musaafaHat_ is equivalent to _zinaa_.
> 
> On the other hand, _saffaaH_ in modern Arabic meaning a person who kills many people doesn't necessarily equate to ''serial killer'', because a mass murderer (who kills many people but not in a series) is also possible.
> 
> This is just an overview of what I can say about it but I leave the task to draw conclusions to others



Taking into account your and Cherine's contributions, one comes to the conclusion that the modern day SaffaaH in Arabic has been improvised. However, bearing in mind its root it could come to mean the mass spillage of anything from blood to tears to anything that can be figuratively spilt. Thus, pedantically perhaps it may not fit the description of a systematic killer but would definitely equate to a mass murderer amongst other things depending upon context as always.


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## marrish

littlepond said:


> ^ silsilaa-vaar fits in well in Hindi too for anything serial, as in "silsile-vaar dhamaake" for serial blasts; it's a commonly used term. For serial killer, one could say "silsile-vaar qaatil".


Are you aware if this expression is used in the media? Isn't any other term used in Hindi?


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## Faylasoof

I don't think in Urdu we can use *سفاح saffaaH*​ for a serial killer given all the above mentioned caveats.


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## littlepond

marrish said:


> Are you aware if this expression is used in the media? Isn't any other term used in Hindi?



marrish jii, maine ab tak zindagi mein kisii serial killer kii khabar padhi hii nahin hain, so ye kehnaa to mushkil hai: par haan, dhamaakon kaa kaafii bolbalaa rehtaa hai. Aur serial blasts "silsile-vaar dhamaake" ke ruup mein zaroor media mein nazar aate hain.


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## cherine

Thank you guys, for the explanation about سفاح .

I'll now leave you to finish your research on the best possible translation in Urdu.


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## Sheikh_14

Faylasoof said:


> I don't think in Urdu we can use *سفاح saffaaH*​ for a serial killer given all the above mentioned caveats.



True, on the other hand as mentioned above it could be used in the context of the mass spillage of any kind. Whats your take Faylasoof sahib on what it could come to mean in the Urdu language?


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## Sheikh_14

marrish said:


> Are you aware if this expression is used in the media? Isn't any other term used in Hindi?



Silsila-vaar although most definetely grammatically sound seems a tad too long. Couldnt' Silsilaii be resorted to instead since it a) fulfills the same purpose b) gives a more felicitious way of forming compound words to do with chain and the word Silsila. C) has a more personal connection to the operative word silsilla whereas silsilla-vaar is equivalent to Chain-holding in the English language.


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## Faylasoof

Sheikh_14 said:


> True, on the other hand as mentioned above it could be used in the context of the mass spillage of any kind. Whats your take Faylasoof sahib on what it could come to mean in the Urdu language?


 Sheikh SaaHib, in Urdu we use _*saffaaH *_exactly as came to be used _historically_ in Arabic for a person who indulges in _shedding blood_ / _mass killing _. The point is there is a distinction in our understanding of mass killers and serial killers, both from the aspect of means and motives. The former would include the likes of Hitler and Stalin, while Jack the Ripper and the Yorkshire Ripper are examples of the latter. 

So, the way I see it the former are indeed _*saffaaH*_ but the latter need a different term, which is what we are trying to come up with in various attempts. Which reminds me of another one related to the one I mention above: _mujbir qaatil _ مجبر قاتل *mujbir qaatil *(- not مُجَبِّر _mujabbir_ = bone-setter!), where مجبر mujbir = compulsive -as a non-literal translation from English.


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