# Nor?



## supercrom

Hello!

Which one is better: 

There weren't any flowers or trees.

There weren't any flowers nor trees.

???????????

Thanks

*CROM*


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## Artrella

cromteaches said:
			
		

> Hello!
> 
> Which one is better:
> 
> There weren't any flowers or trees.
> 
> There weren't any flowers nor trees.
> 
> ???????????
> 
> Thanks
> 
> *CROM*





I think the first one is correct, because "nor" is usually used after "Neither".

Saludos


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## lauranazario

Sending this thread to Grammar English-Only...

LN


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## mjscott

There weren't any flowers; neither were there trees.


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## te gato

cromteaches said:
			
		

> Hello!
> 
> Which one is better:
> 
> There weren't any flowers or trees.
> 
> There weren't any flowers nor trees.
> 
> ???????????
> 
> Thanks
> 
> *CROM*


Hola Crom;
"There weren't any flowers or trees."--Good
"There weren't any flowers nor were there any trees"
te gato


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## supercrom

Thanks a lot

CROM


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## te gato

cromteaches said:
			
		

> Thanks a lot
> 
> CROM


You are most welcome
te gato


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## Artrella

te gato said:
			
		

> Hola Crom;
> "There weren't any flowers or trees."--Good
> "There weren't any flowers *nor were there any trees*"
> te gato




Hi te gato,

That is inversion (the bold type part)
I've always had this querie, the same one as Crom.  So you can use "nor" without "neither".  I always use "or" to be on the safe side.


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## gaer

cromteaches said:
			
		

> Hello!
> 
> Which one is better:
> 
> There weren't any flowers or trees.
> 
> There weren't any flowers nor trees.
> 
> ???????????
> 
> Thanks
> 
> *CROM*


Two answers: according to usage, both are correct. But I don't like the second one.

I would write:

There weren't any flowers nor trees.

OR

There weren neither flowers nor trees.

But you WILL see your second sentence, and from some very fine writers. 

Gaer


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## lsp

Artrella said:
			
		

> So you can use "nor" without "neither".  I always use "or" to be on the safe side.


Nor can be used without neither. "Nor" is also a coordinating conjunction. This is an easy way to remember the list of coordinating conjunctions, just remember *FANBOYS*!!!  *F*or  *A*nd  *N*or  *B*ut  *O*r  *Y*et  *S*o

"Tom told us he didn't want to come to our party, nor did any of us want him to come."


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## Artrella

lsp said:
			
		

> Nor can be used without neither. "Nor" is also a coordinating conjunction. This is an easy way to remember the list of coordinating conjunctions, just remember *FANBOYS*!!!  *F*or  *A*nd  *N*or  *B*ut  *O*r  *Y*et  *S*o
> 
> "Tom told us he didn't want to come to our party, nor did any of us want him to come."




A good mnemotechnic rule! Thank you Lsp.


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## gaer

lsp said:
			
		

> Nor can be used without neither. "Nor" is also a coordinating conjunction. This is an easy way to remember the list of coordinating conjunctions, just remember *FANBOYS*!!! *F*or *A*nd *N*or *B*ut *O*r *Y*et *S*o
> 
> "Tom told us he didn't want to come to our party, nor did any of us want him to come."


You are totally correct, but that's a different kind of sentence.

te gato also gave an example:

"There weren't any flowers[,] nor were there any trees"

I was commenting on the sentences mentioned before. 

Cool mnemonic too!!!


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## te gato

Artrella said:
			
		

> Hi te gato,
> 
> That is inversion (the bold type part)
> I've always had this querie, the same one as Crom. So you can use "nor" without "neither". I always use "or" to be on the safe side.


Hi Art;
You can use nor with out neither IF you use a comma and break it up..
You are kinda cheating and turning one sentence into two... 
but we won't tell..
te gato


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## Outsider

cromteaches said:
			
		

> Hello!
> 
> Which one is better:
> 
> There weren't any flowers or trees.
> 
> There weren't any flowers nor trees.


My way of thinking about this is:

"There weren't any flowers or trees." = 
"There were *not* any {flowers or trees}" =
"There were *not any* flowers *and* there were *not any* trees".

The negative word "not" applies both to "any flowers" and to "any trees", so no other negative word is necessary.

I hope this helps.


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## gaer

Outsider said:
			
		

> My way of thinking about this is:
> 
> "There weren't any flowers or trees." =
> "There were *not* any {flowers or trees}" =
> "There were *not any* flowers *and* there were *not any* trees".
> 
> The negative word "not" applies both to "any flowers" and to "any trees", so no other negative word is necessary.
> 
> I hope this helps.


I would not get a difference in sense from these two sentences without adding something:

There weren't any flowers, nor trees.
There weren't any flowers—nor trees.
There weren't any flowers, nor were there trees.

Without something extra there, I would read the sentence the same way with "or" or "nor".


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## el alabamiano

cromteaches said:
			
		

> Hello!
> 
> Which one is better:
> 
> There weren't any flowers or trees.
> 
> There weren't any flowers nor trees.
> 
> ???????????
> 
> Thanks
> 
> *CROM*


The first sentence is correct. The second sentence should read:

There were neither flowers nor trees. (Sounds too formal though)


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## te gato

el alabamiano said:
			
		

> The first sentence is correct. The second sentence should read:
> 
> There were neither flowers nor trees. (Sounds too formal though)


Hola el alabamiano;
I agree the second one sounds way too formal, maybe you could say it like that if you were going to a pish-posh garden party..
I still say add the comma 
Better!
te gato


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## gaer

el alabamiano said:
			
		

> The first sentence is correct. The second sentence should read:
> 
> There were neither flowers nor trees. (Sounds too formal though)


I agree with you totally, and I would expect to see such a sentence frequently in novels, even modern ones, but not in dialogue in the same books.

Gaer


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## onetwothreegood

*ack*. you have all said 'nor' too many times... you know when you say a word over and over, you start to forget what it is, or why it is what it is... *gets confused*


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## Artrella

el alabamiano said:
			
		

> The first sentence is correct. The second sentence should read:
> 
> There were neither flowers nor trees. (Sounds too formal though)





Too formal??? Why??


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## onetwothreegood

I was wondering the same thing actually Artrella.

I always think of Dr. Seuss when talking about 'nor'

"I do not like green eggs and ham, nor do i like blah blah blah."

it works well in poems.


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## el alabamiano

te gato said:
			
		

> Hola el alabamiano;
> I agree the second one sounds way too formal, maybe you could say it like that if you were going to a pish-posh garden party..
> I still say add the comma
> Better!
> te gato


Well, it doesn't require the comma because it isn't broken up in speech. Look at the sentence below (meaning the same thing, but not formal, and sounds more natural (to me)):

There were no flowers or trees.


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## el alabamiano

Artrella said:
			
		

> Too formal??? Why??


Well, there's nothing wrong with using neither-nor. But as te gato wrote, it sounds like it belongs at a posh garden party. I'll add a bookwriter's convention or an English classroom. As for me, I use neither-nor when I'm writing formal letters, but it's just not something I use in speech. On the other hand, lots of people do.


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## el alabamiano

gaer said:
			
		

> I agree with you totally, and I would expect to see such a sentence frequently in novels, even modern ones, but not in dialogue in the same books.
> 
> Gaer


I don't know--say you were writing a book and the setting is in the Hamptons, NY--the dialogue between a prim and proper debutante and her wealthy, old-dowager aunt. To me, there would be (just) cause for its usage in dialogue.


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## te gato

el alabamiano said:
			
		

> Well, it doesn't require the comma because it isn't broken up in speech. Look at the sentence below (meaning the same thing, but not formal, and sounds more natural (to me)):
> 
> There were no flowers or trees.


I agree with you..
I Personaly like the sentence you stated..
I can't remember a time I said nor??
Or neither for that matter??
el alabamiano..are you ready to go to that Posh Garden Party yet?? Pick me up on your way past!! 

te gato


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## el alabamiano

onetwothreegood said:
			
		

> I was wondering the same thing actually Artrella.
> 
> I always think of Dr. Seuss when talking about 'nor'
> 
> "I do not like green eggs and ham, nor do i like blah blah blah."
> 
> it works well in poems.


I'm with you--save it for the poems.


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## Artrella

All right, so far no UK native has given their opinion.  I would like to know if in UK "neither....nor" is considered formal or literary.

I hope some British comes...soon!


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## gaer

onetwothreegood said:
			
		

> *ack*. you have all said 'nor' too many times... you know when you say a word over and over, you start to forget what it is, or why it is what it is... *gets confused*


It's the Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle of Language.


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## gaer

Artrella said:
			
		

> All right, so far no UK native has given their opinion. I would like to know if in UK "neither....nor" is considered formal or literary.
> 
> I hope some British comes...soon!


Unfortunately, the British are asleep. It isn't 6 AM there yet.


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## Outsider

gaer said:
			
		

> I would not get a difference in sense from these two sentences without adding something:
> 
> There weren't any flowers, nor trees.
> There weren't any flowers—nor trees.
> There weren't any flowers, nor were there trees.
> 
> Without something extra there, I would read the sentence the same way with "or" or "nor".


Would you also accept "There weren't any flowers nor trees", without any kind of pause between "There weren't any flowers" and "not trees"?


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## te gato

Outsider said:
			
		

> Would you also accept "There weren't any flowers nor trees", without any kind of pause between "There weren't any flowers" and "not trees"?


hola Outsider;
No, sadly it can not be put like that..for the reason "And not trees" does not go..
You would have to use "or"  in place of "and not"
te gato


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## gaer

Outsider said:
			
		

> Would you also accept "There weren't any flowers nor trees", without any kind of pause between "There weren't any flowers" and "not trees"?


"Accept" it the wrong word, because if I say no it sounds as if I am some kind of authority, which is definitely not the case. I can only say that it does not sound right to my ears.

I checked Merrian-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage, and it shows several example of "nor" replacing "or", but the three examples shown were much longer sentences. Two used commas before "nor".

All three sentences sounded right to me. If this book were online, I'd cut and paste examples, but I'd have to type them in. The consensus seems to be that it's a matter of style and feel.

I hope that helps. 

Gaer


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## Outsider

gaer said:
			
		

> The consensus seems to be that it's a matter of style *and feel*.


Well, actually, that could be said about any grammatical rule.


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## gaer

Outsider said:
			
		

> Well, actually, that could be said about any grammatical rule.


 
The problem is that in this case I could not even FIND a rule. 

But the book I mentioned analyzes how English is used AND gives a history of how many of our rules came to be.


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## Nsonia

lsp said:
			
		

> Nor can be used without neither. "Nor" is also a coordinating conjunction. This is an easy way to remember the list of coordinating conjunctions, just remember *FANBOYS*!!! *F*or *A*nd *N*or *B*ut *O*r *Y*et *S*o
> 
> "Tom told us he didn't want to come to our party, nor did any of us want him to come."


 
Hi Isp,
i was happy to find a mnemotechnic rule but I just don't understand how it functions!!  especially what the For has to do with this?

thanks for your help Isp.
Nsonia


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## lsp

Nsonia said:
			
		

> Hi Isp,
> i was happy to find a mnemotechnic rule but I just don't understand how it functions!!  especially what the For has to do with this?
> 
> thanks for your help Isp.
> Nsonia


Coordination conjunctions give equal “weight” to both sides of the sentence. 

Example: Plagiarism of any sort is a bad idea, *for* it will always result in serious consequences.

Does that help?


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## Nsonia

lsp said:
			
		

> Coordination conjunctions give equal “weight” to both sides of the sentence.
> 
> Example: Plagiarism of any sort is a bad idea, *for* it will always result in serious consequences.
> 
> Does that help?[/QUOTE
> I think my question was poorly formulated . Let me repeat , please . It was about the FANBOYS rule you kindly suggested in this thread. I am often confused with the use of "nor" and "or". you rule seems tailor-made for me  but only if I know how it works . especially the first F (for), what is it for?
> I mean how remembering FANBOYS could help me use "nor" and "or" safely?
> 
> thanks a lot
> Nsonia


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## lsp

The mnemonic device wasn't my idea, and it doesn't say _how_ to use coordination conjunctions. It only helps to remember which words can act as coordination conjunctions.

Edit:  I was exploring a great grammar link posted by Benjy when I found this.


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## gaer

lsp said:
			
		

> The mnemonic device wasn't my idea, and it doesn't say _how_ to use coordination conjunctions. It only helps to remember which words can act as coordination conjunctions.
> 
> Edit: I was exploring a great grammar link posted by Benjy when I found this.


First, it might help to rembmer that "for", when used in this way, can be replaced with "because". This helps make clear the difference between using "for" as a conjunction (connecting word) or as a preposition.


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## Nsonia

thanks a lot Isp ,
I visited the website. it seems helpful.
regerds
Nsonia


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## Enlasarenas

Hi there!
 
I don't seem to get this one across...
 
"I haven’t received any news from him *nor/or *you regarding..."????
 
Thanx 
 
Arenas


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## nycphotography

I have received news neither from him, nor from you, regarding...

I have not received news either from him, or from you, regarding...

I have not received news either from him, nor from you, regarding...  _<--- hmm this one may be suspect._


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## Outsider

Interesting! I am not a native speaker, but I suspect that both versions are right. However, the sentence is ambiguous, Arenas. It could mean:

a) that the speaker has not received any news from him and that the speaker hasn't received any news from you, either;

b) that the speaker has not received any news from him and that you haven't received any news from him, either.

To make yourself perfectly clear, you should rephrase the sentence a little bit, for example as follows:

a)  "I haven’t received any news from him, nor *from* you, regarding..."

b) "I haven’t received any news from him, nor *have* you, regarding..."


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## BasedowLives

nycphotography said:
			
		

> I have received news neither from him, nor from you, regarding...
> 
> I have not received news either from him, or from you, regarding...
> 
> I have not received news either from him, nor from you, regarding...  _<--- hmm this one may be suspect._



the third one sounds ok to me.  i think you could also add:

i have not received news from him, nor have i from you.


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