# Yiddish нивроку / nivroku



## Maroseika

Ukrainian *нивроку *(нивроко) means  "touch wood" and reckoned to be a calque of Yiddish קיי-נ(ה)ארה(*kain(h)ore*, with -יי for Yiddish -ai-).
However, "to put the evil eye on smb." in Yiddish is איי-נהארע געבן  אן  (*gebn an ainhore* - to give an evil eye), that is quite clear etymologically: Hebrew עין הרע  (айн hara) means "evil eye" (lit. bad eye or eye of harm, evil).

Now the question: 
Why Yiddish ainhore (eye evil) > kainhore (touch wood)?

Can it be that initial *ain* was reconsidered as an article, *hore* as "evil eye", and *kein *was formed as the negative form of pronoun *ain *(cf. German _keine_)?
How could it be possible if any Jew was to know Hebrew enough to notice quite transparent Hebrew etymology of the Yiddish expression?


*Just for reference: Ukrainian нивроку/нивроко < *нi вроки*. Вроки (or уроки) - evil eye, from рок - fate (cg. Polish *urok *- evil eye).


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## sokol

I have no idea about Hebrew but I can add that to touch wood, or more precisely, the doorpost where the Mesusa was hanging, was a way of fending off evil (and quite possibly also the evil eye?!).
So if "kainhore" means "to touch wood" (it seems that you suggest this?) then this could be a re-interpretation of the saying by Jews themselves (interpreting "ainhore" as "kainhore" because they might try and fend off the evil eye by touching the Mesusa).

Just a thought, of course; I've got no idea if this could be the story behind it.


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## Maroseika

No, no,  "to touch wood" was no more than a "sense" translation. When somebody says, for example, "How beautiful is your child!" he is adding "нивроку" (Ukr.) or "kainhore" (Yiddish) or "чтоб не сглазить" (Russian) or "touch wood" (English).
Literally *kainhore *has nothing to do with any wood and any touching.
Sorry for confusion.


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## origumi

This word (or expression) has several alternative spellings, for example:

קיינע הארע
קיינהורע
קעניינעהארע
קיין עין הרע

The last one is clearly a mixture of Hebrew words and Germanic negation. I guess that this is the origin, contracted later depending on accent.

See the dancing Babe (grandmother) in this nice song (fragment):


> אײַזיק מזיק –
> די באָבע גײט אַ קאָזאַק!
> *קײן עין-הרע*, זעט נאָר, זעט,
> װי זי טופּעט, װי זי גײט,
> אױ, אַ שׂמחה, אױ, אַ פֿרײד –
> די מיזינקע אױסגעגעבן!


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## Maroseika

So this is not a reconsideration of עין but assimilation  קיין עין  into קיין?


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## maxl

Maroseika said:


> So this is not a reconsideration of עין but assimilation  קיין עין  into קיין?



Not assimilation, but contraction, as origumi wrote. 
On another level, I don't see how any of these yiddish forms can be related to Ukrainian нівроку. To me this looks like a normal Slavic combination of the negative ні + врок, which would be a verbal noun related to East Slavic урокъ   corresponding to the verbs урекать / врекати + the -у ending of the genitive case. This fits quite nicely with the meanings given in my Ukrainian-Russian dictionary: ничего себе, нечего сказать.


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## Maroseika

maxl said:


> Not assimilation, but contraction, as origumi wrote.
> On another level, I don't see how any of these yiddish forms can be related to Ukrainian нівроку. To me this looks like a normal Slavic combination of the negative ні + врок, which would be a verbal noun related to East Slavic урокъ   corresponding to the verbs урекать / врекати + the -у ending of the genitive case. .


  Of course, it looks like normal Slavic word combination, that's why it's called 'calque". As for the origin of this word, it is Yiddish just because was first attested in the speech of Jews (at least, according to my sources).
Another reason why we should look its source beyond Ukrainian and even Slavic languages, is rather strange construction of the word (lit. 'no evil's eye'). For example, Russian variant of this expression is 'не сглазить бы', and we can see here normal Russian phrase,  while Russian analog of нiвроку would be нисглазу, looking very strange.
And one more thing. In Ukrainian language 'evil's eye' is уроки, вроки (Plural). How came  it was used in нiвроку in Singular? I see only one reason - expression was not created by the Ukrainian natives. Jews translated it exactly like it was used in Yiddish notwithstanding this word is never used in Ukrainian in Singular.





> This fits quite nicely with the meanings given in my Ukrainian-Russian dictionary: ничего себе, нечего сказать


I'm not sure what exactly senses development you mean here, but the last two mean "not bad" and "can't say anything bad [about smth.]", i.e. they are not the source of нiвроку (= 'touch wood') but its direct descendants.


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## maxl

If the Ukrainian were a calque, I would expect an equivalent of ayin, i.e. око to appear in it, other wise it's just a native Slavic formula for fending off evil. The notion of evil eye is not specifically and not exclusively Jewish, hence more evidence is needed in order to forward such an etymology. You attribute these opinion to some unspecified "it is reckoned" and "according to my sources". I wonder what these sources are.


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## Maroseika

Well, my sources are not reliable enough, so let's forget it and discuss the matter per se.
I don't think that Ukrainian calque would have included око or anything else referring to the 'eye' without fail, because the source of this hypothetic calque should have been not the Hebrew עין הרע, but Yiddish איי-נהארע. 
Don't forget that besides Ukrainian word we have to explain Yiddish kainore < ainore. I see only one way to explain both: 'kainore' was reconsidered as negative particle 'kain' + "ore", but this could be possible only if 'ain' was reconsidered as article and 'ore' - as вроки, and no connection with Hebrew source was remembered by the common Jew people in Ukraine.


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## koniecswiata

In Polish, "uroki" means charms in general, not evil eye.  However, it may have once meant evil eye--that I don't know.  But, today, it does not have an "evil" connotation per se.


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## Maroseika

Isn't evil's eye just "bad charms", evil spell?


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## Selyd

*Наврочити*, *наурочити* – поглядом, словами чи діями принести зле.
 Звідси _наврочений , наурочення. Не наврочити б_!
*Нівроку* – як треба. В значенні ненаврочити (_Нівроку тобі!_) ніразу не чув.
*Вроки*, *уроки* – наслання поглядом хвороби.
Ukrainian *н**і**вроку*/ - так є.
*нивроко* < *нi вроки** – так немає.*


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## Maroseika

Selyd said:


> *Нівроку* – як треба. В значенні ненаврочити (_Нівроку тобі!_) ніразу не чув.


This is very ineteresting evidence of the native speaker and seems confirming idea of the calque origin of this word.


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## Selyd

Maroseika, вітаю!
Що я подумав? *Нівроку* *тобі* можливо пройшло субстантивацію.
Натомість *Нівроку *прислівник. З огляду на таку примху треба
було б писати *Ні вроку* *тобі*. Але відсутність перечислення
призводить до склеювання. Наприклад, *Ні вроку, ні перелогів (*_судорги_*)* *тобі.*
Діти таке практикують: *вмагазин*, бо ходимо в магазин.
Будьте дужі!


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## Maroseika

I'm not sure *вмагазин *is good example, because we are talking about oral speech having nothing to do with orthography. No matter how we write this expression, the most important how we use it. 
*Вроки/уроки* is Plural and if used in the direct sense (no evil eye for you) it would be *нi врокiв*, right? Like in *ні перелогів* as in your example. 
But this is right for any native Ukrainian speaker, and not for the hypothetic Yiddish speakers. Especially taking into account variant *нiвроко*. I cannot explain it from the point of view of Ukrainian grammar, can you?


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