# Native speakers reading MSA texts (case, mood endings)



## Anatoli

Hi all, 

The modern standard Arabic textbooks I used all mention the case ending and explain the usage, the pronunciation and spelling (in the fully vowelised writing). They also mention that these endings are only used in a very formal situation or when reciting Qur'an when they are pronounced. The texts don't have "sukuns" on the last consonants for the same reason - to allow a more formal pronunciation - e.g. Nominative: walad*un*, bint*un* (a boy, a girl), al-walad*u*, al-bint*u*(the boy, the girl) not just walad, bint, al-walad, al-bint with no case ending. If that's the case then MSA has more colloquial, simplified forms or just they mention this because no spoken dialect uses these endings?

I asked a Lebanese person "maa ismak?" and he corrected me  "maa ismuka" would be used in correct and "fully vowelled" MSA.

These case endings, are they used by news brodcasters for example (not sure if that's formal enough)? How about cartoons? Do they have these case endings.

Would be also good if someone expanded on the usage of case endings in formal Arabic (please provide romanisation or put vowels on your Arabic words).
_
Somehow I can't paste Arabic diacritic symbols in this post, probably I don't have the full support of Aarbic at work _


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## abusaf

Case endings are all pronounced in news broadcasts etc, but not in the last word.

Example:

حذر الرئيس الأمريكي جورج دبليو بوش إيران من أنها ستواجه عقوبات ستتصاعد في شدتها إذا رفضت العرض المقدم لها لوقف أنشطتها النووية والعودة للمحادثات.
Hadhara Ar-Ra'ees ul-Amerikii George W Bush Irana min annaha saatuwaajihu 3qoobaata saatataSaa3d fee shiddatiha idha rafaDat al 3arDa al moqaddama laha liwaqfi anshaTatiha an-nawaweyati wa al 3awdati lilmohaadathaati.

 So this is how it is pronounced, except for the last lilmohaadathaat*i*, since there is nothing following it.

However, if you were to read the above Arabic text without knowledge of the Arabic grammar system, how would you know what words take the Fathah Kasrah and Dammah? Therefore, when people who dont have much experience in this field, its hard to read all the case endings. 

 For example, in Arabic we say:
 Ayna yaqa3u bayt*una*?  Where is our house (located)?
 Ana ra'ytu bayt*ana *(I saw our house)
 Hal huwa fee bayt*ina *? (Is he in our house?)

 But in the dialectial form, one might say "baytna" or "beetna" etc, and hence not have to worry about the case ending.

 More convenient one might say 

Regarding your Lebanese friend; to inquire about someones name, it is correct to say: "Maa Ismuk?"
If you add something after it, it might be "Maa Ismuk yaa Akhee ?". However, if you are just saying the original phrase, you only say "Maa Ismuk?"


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## Anatoli

Thanks, Abusaf


> For example, in Arabic we say:
> Ayna yaqa3u bayt*una*?  Where is our house (located)?
> Ana ra'ytu bayt*ana *(I saw our house)
> Hal huwa fee bayt*ina *? (Is he in our house?)


I understand the difference, was just wondering how important to use them because textbook seem to keep saying *you only need to use the in very formal situations.

*Isn't it ism-u-k(a) ("u" definite case ending and "ka" masculine "yours"). You mean that "a" can be dropped?

I understood from books:
ism*uk*(a) (m) / ism*uki* (f) - your name (MSA)
ism*ak* (m) / ism*ik* (f) - colloquial or dialectal (which?)

If they don't teach case endings in textbooks properly because they are hard not because they are not used, that's silly 

Please confirm - in MSA you should use case endings and in dialects you don't have to?


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## abusaf

Anatoli said:
			
		

> Thanks, Abusaf
> 
> I understand the difference, was just wondering how important to use them because textbook seem to keep saying *you only need to use the in very formal situations.*


No, if you want to speak Modern Standard Arabic, i.e al-Fusha, whatever the situation may be,you have to adhere to these rules, just like any other language.


			
				Anatoli said:
			
		

> Isn't it ism-u-k(a) ("u" definite case ending and "ka" masculine "yours"). You mean that "a" can be dropped?


You are correct, it is Ismuka, but the last vowel is not pronounced unless there is a following word, i.e:

What is your name? = Maa Ismuk?
What is your name my brother? = Maa Ismuka ya Akhi?


			
				Anatoli said:
			
		

> If they don't teach case endings in textbooks properly because they are hard not because they are not used, that's silly


I agree, however all textbooks that focus on teaching correct Arabic will include all these rules.


			
				Anatoli said:
			
		

> Please confirm - in MSA you should use case endings and in dialects you don't have to?


Exactly. I mean the pure purpose of the dialects is to make speaking easier, it has no real rules. Anarchy !!!


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## elroy

This question is a little difficult to answer because not everybody reads the same way.

When reading MSA, you _should_ pronounce all case endings except for the last one, but that doesn't mean everyone does.  I'm afraid I have to disagree with Abusaf when he says 





> Case endings are all pronounced in news broadcasts


 because as much as I'd like for them to, news broadcasters simply _don't_ always pronounce every single case ending but the last one.

At the same time, dropping _every _case ending but the last one would make for an awkward-sounding text.  There are certain endings that simply roll off the tongue almost unconsciously and would almost never be dropped.  For example, the case ending of the first word in an iDaafa is usually pronounced.  Here's an example:

.ذهب رئيس الدولة إلى اجتماع في العراق
This sentence would most likely be read "Dhahaba raa2iis*u* 'd-dawla(ti) ila 'jtimaa3in fi 'l-3iraaq."  You could either pronounce or drop the ending of "dawla" without compromising the euphony of the text (of course, it sounds better to pronounce the ending) but the same doesn't really apply to "raa2iis."

In the dialects case endings are not used.  

As for your question about "ka," the answer is yes, the "a" can be dropped (although I think it's better to pronounce it).  If the ending is "ki," however, you cannot drop the "i."

Masculine: _Maa ismuka?/Maa ismuk?
_Feminine: _Maa ismuki?_


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## Anatoli

Thanks, again. Please don't think I am stubborn or stupid just wondering why all 3 MSA (!) textbooks, although explain the case endings (for information), they don't use them in the recording! In the printed, fully vowelised text they don't write the tanwiin symbols and there is no sukun either, they explain that there should be the case ending there (which is just ignored).

From Answers.com:


> The case endings are only present in formal or literary language. Technically, every noun has such an ending, although at the end of a sentence, no inflection is pronounced, even in formal speech, because of the rules of 'pause'.


Are they teaching a different, simplified version of MSA (not a dialect)? Does it exist?

Textbooks with such a situation: Ultimate Arabic, Mastering Arabic, Teach Yourself Arabic

_I am not worried about grammatical cases by the way, they are fun, in Russian we have 3 genders (and complex plural) and 6 cases with various declension types and exceptions.
_


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## cherine

Anatoli said:
			
		

> Thanks, again. Please don't think I am stubborn or stupid just wondering why all 3 MSA (!) textbooks, although explain the case endings (for information), they don't use them in the recording!
> 
> 
> 
> From Answers.com:
> Technically, every noun has such an ending, although at the end of a sentence, no inflection is pronounced, even in formal speech, because of the rules of 'pause'.
> 
> 
> 
> Are they teaching a different, simplified version of MSA (not a dialect)? Does it exist?
Click to expand...

Don't worry Anatoli, I don't think anyone's thinking you're either stupid nor stubborn 
To my knowledge there is no such thing as a simplified MSA where case endings are "officially" dropped.
The sentence from the quote is the answer to your question: "*the rules of pause*". When we read MSA, endings are there, but it's up to each reader/speaker to pronounce them or not according to the pauses they choose, and pauses are usually with "sukuun". 
Also remember what I've said in another thread : we don't usually put all the endings, when writing, so don't worry if you don't see them in your books, even if they're supposed to be more accurate


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## Anatoli

Thanks, Cherine. It's done intentionally (not marking the ending vowels or case endings). I'll probably quote some statements from those books. I'll try to understand and use case endings.


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## cherine

Anatoli said:
			
		

> It's done intentionally (not marking the ending vowels or case endings).


Yes Anatoli, that's what I said in my previous post : we don't usually put the case endings when writing


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## abusaf

elroy said:
			
		

> As for your question about "ka," the answer is yes, the "a" can be dropped (although I think it's better to pronounce it). If the ending is "ki," however, you cannot drop the "i."



No, you can drop the last vowel in all forms, why would it be otherwise?


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## Anatoli

cherine said:
			
		

> Yes Anatoli, that's what I said in my previous post : we don't usually put the case endings when writing


 I forgot to mention that all the romanisation to those words didn't have the ending vowels. In fact, all the romanised texts DON'T have the case endings. The case endings are explained but not used, as if they are not important or not used.

ayna l-bayt?

In *Mastering Arabic* (p. 49):


> *Less commonly*, an in *very formal* Modern Standard Arabic, indefinite noun end in the sound 'n" or the letter nuun, which follows one of the three short vowels.


The same thought is introduced in the other MSA textbooks. Teach Yourself Arabic doesn't even explain case endings (they are not used in 15 lessons, that's for sure). They claim to teach MSA,not dialects.

What I am trying to find out is, what is this less formal MSA and what is more common?

EDIT:
*Teach Yourself Arabic*:


> The traditonal language of the Holy Koran and classical literature used special endings on words, which consisted mainly of vowels. With a few exceptions, these are not now written and have been largely ignored in this book. The form of Arabic taught in this book is based on its modern form, i.e. that used in the press, fiction and similar written material.... usually referred to as Modern Standard Arabic.



You may say, they speak about the written form but up-to Unit 3 there's also romanisation, which doesn't have case endings.


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## elroy

abusaf said:
			
		

> No, you can drop the last vowel in all forms, why would it be otherwise?


I would not drop it in the case of a feminine pronoun to avoid ambiguity.

Anatoli, I think you're causing yourself an unnecessary headache. We've already answered your questions, but I'll try to summarize the situation once more: 

Case endings (except for the final one before a pause) _should_ be read in formal MSA; however, not everybody does. When one is reading the Qur'an, more attention is paid to the case endings and they are not dropped, but in other contexts (more formal than colloquial Arabic but less formal than Qur'anic Arabic) there's more flexibility. Why case sendings are not included in some of the transliterations you have come across, I do not know - but it's not something I'd lose sleep over. You can say "ayn al-baytu" _*or*_ "ayn al-bayt" but the former is more correct and precise. One thing's for certain: there is not a rule that *requires* the dropping of case endings in MSA. 

I don't know whether I can make this any clearer. If I can, please let me know how.


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## Anatoli

I am only curious that's all, Elroy, not worried. These textbooks and phrasebooks I saw, they make all the endings insignificant or think readers are not intelligent to understand them, in a phrasebook they said "we use a modified version of Modern Standard Arabic". I understand now what was the difference - dropping case endings.


> One thing's for certain: there is not a rule that *requires* the dropping of case endings in MSA.


Do you mean there are no cases in formal MSA where the endings are not used? Last question, sorry.

Thanks all for your answers.


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## cherine

Anatoli said:
			
		

> I am only curious that's all, Elroy, not worried. These textbooks and phrasebooks I saw, they make all the endings insignificant or think readers are not intelligent to understand them, in a phrasebook they said "we use a modified version of Modern Standard Arabic". I understand now what was the difference - dropping case endings.


You have every right to be curious Anatoli 
But I can guess that your book's dropping the endings is maybe due to the fact that they're stressing more on teaching vocabulary than grammar, or more precisely : the very very acurate forms of grammar.
Case endings are the symbols of the grammatical cases, so it's something you're not supposed to learn in a beginner book/class.
Maybe that explains it.


> Do you mean there are no cases in formal MSA where the endings are not used? Last question, sorry.


Never be sorry for asking 
We can't tell if there are cases in formal MSA where the endings are not used, because -as we said- those endings are not always written. They're more marked or noticed in speech rather than written forms, so it's hard to tell.
And, again, it's up to each reader/speaker to pronounce or not the endings according to the pauses they take through their reading/talking.


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## elroy

Anatoli said:
			
		

> Do you mean there are no cases in formal MSA where the endings are not used? Last question, sorry.


Only at the end of an utterance - usually at a period or a comma.  (Have you ever heard الفاتحةbeing recited?)

No need to apologize.  It's just that I feel as if I'm repeating myself.


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## Anatoli

Sorry for digging this up but can you confirm that in MSA words ending in *taa' marbuuta'* add *-an* ending in accusative case/indefinite making the word pronounced as -tan without affecting the basic spelling?

How many toys (are there) in the picture?:
كم لعبة في الصورة- kam lu`ba*t-an* fi S-Suura(ti).

Is it lu`ba or lu`batan in formal Arabic?

Thanks in advance.


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## Abu Bishr

Hi Anatoli

It's "lu'batan" if you are not for some reason pausing on the word.

As for reading or speaking with case-endings, the following is what I think:

(1) One of the reasons why case-endings are not aplied by some Arabic speakers in MSA contexts is that if the speaker's conscious or subconscious knowledge of grammar is not up to scratch he will become extremely form-focused rather than meaning and even forget the primary function of speaking which is to convey information. This is especially evident when a native speaker of colloquial Arabic attempts to speak in MSA. Not only is it difficult enough to just find the equivalent MSA vocabulary & expressions but observing the grammar in terms of case-endings just becomes almost impossible. Hence, you will find that the pronunciation is often that of MSA but with the case-endings lacking. Those, on the otherhand, who have a very strong command of Arabic as well as its grammar, observing the case-endings is almost second nature with them and they don't become overtly focused on them to the extend that it sounds pedantic. This is especially the case of scholars, men of letters (udaba'), etc.

(2) Why they often encourage you not to apply the case-endings in the beginning of your MSA learning is that afterwards you might develop a bit of a complex for making mistakes to the extend that you might not speak freely and spontaneously. The motto is often: "Speak and don't worry about the case-endings, that will come later".

(3) Observing case-endings has become a sort of a arena for competition, and a show of meticulous grammar especially in a society where this is sadly lacking. Classical speakers (i.e. the Arabs of old) never had this problem according to my reading of portions of the vast Arabic legacy. It's because, I think, of the ubiquitous nature of Arabic dialects that Classical Arabic and MSA to a leser extent have suffered. In fact, there have been recent movements to move way from the classical way of teaching Arabic with its focus on grammar in favour of a more accessible grammar so you hear slogans like "Tajdid al-Nahw", etc. For some reason, these movements have not been very successfull.

(4) In conclusion, I would say that there are various degrees of MSA, some forms that come very close to Classical Arabic in terms of grammar especially and others that come very close to colloquial Arabic also in terms of the grammar. People who are strong in their grammar emphasize it and people who are not so strong and confident in it, discourage it and don't see why this big deal with case-endings.

Personally, I like people to observe case endings especially if it comes naturally and effortless and is not a strain and burden on the speaker.


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## Anatoli

Thanks for the interesting explanation


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## cherine

Anatoli said:


> Sorry for digging this up but can you confirm that in MSA words ending in *taa' marbuuta'* add *-an* ending in accusative case/indefinite making the word pronounced as -tan without affecting the basic spelling?


Hello Anatoli,
Yes, it's ---*tan*. And the spelling doesn't change لعبةً. 


> Is it lu`ba or lu`batan in formal Arabic?
> Thanks in advance.


Both are correct, just choose the one that's easiest for you. Also, when you're not sure whether it's --tan, --tin or --tun you'd better drop the case ending.



Abu Bishr said:


> (2) Why they often encourage you not to apply the case-endings in the beginning of your MSA learning is that afterwards you might develop a bit of a complex for making mistakes to the extend that you might not speak freely and spontaneously. The motto is often: "Speak and don't worry about the case-endings, that will come later".


When I "encourage" a learner to not worry much about case endings it's because I know that you can never know the right case ending unless you've learnt enough grammar.
How can you tell if the word ends with a fat7a, kasra or Damma if you don't know -yet- about grammar ?
It's not a matter of "lesser importance", but of practical and logical thinking, in my humble opinion.


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## Tariq_Ibn_zyad

Anatoli said:


> I asked a Lebanese person "maa ismak?" and he corrected me  "maa ismuka" would be used in correct and "fully vowelled" MSA.


don't forget you would never say "ma ismuk" but ma smouk(a/i) in MSA, as the alif of ism has a "hamzat wasl"and therefore you would write it with a wasla just to remind you

good luck with your study


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## zaidaus

Anatoli said:


> Do you mean there are no cases in formal MSA where the endings are not used?


As far as i know there is one. But just keep in mind here that i'm no pro at arabic, i'm beginner too.

according to a teacher of mine,  there are the following cases in arabic: nominative, genitive, accusative and jussive. the corresponding vowels for these cases are dhommah, kasrah, fat7a and *sukoon* (i.e. 'no case-ending'), respectively.

apparently nouns can be nominative, genitive and accusative.

verbs can also have 'cases' (this was a confusing concept for me when i first heard of it, because when i think of cases, i think of things like if something is 'accusative' in a sentence, then it is being acted on, or something like that, so i only thought of nouns taking cases). verbs can be nominative, accusative and jussive (i.e. verbs can't be genitive: they can't take kasra as a CASE ending. And nouns can't be jussive: their CASE ending can't be sukoon). but that just means that these verbs take the corresponding vowel to indicate which case they're in, because in arabic, these cases are just letters on the end of a word, be it a noun or verb. all they do is describe the role of that particular word in that sentence. so it's not like when a verb is in the accusative case, that you are 'acting' on the verb, which is what i thought when i first heard mention of accusative verbs. it just means that it's case ending is fat7a, eg, anaa ureedu an atakallam_*a*_ 7awla kalbee, as opposed too: atakallam_*u*_ al3arabiyyah. the particle 'an' made the verb following it become manSoob (accusative).

so getting to the point, the one with 'no case ending', which you asked about, and i interpret as meaning the one with 'sukoon' as case ending, is the jussive one. i found an example of this 'jussive' in a book of mine. the name of jussive in arabic is 'majzoom', as far as i can tell.

now i will give an example of this majzoom.

you know the verb: yadhhabu
meaning: he goes

there is a particle: lam
which when it precedes this particular form of the verb (i think you call it present or something, in arabic it's called mudaare3) it changes it's case from nominative (in arabic, marfoo3) to jussive (majzoom). so this particular verb becomes a 'mudaare3 majzoom', something like present jussive.
so now i write it as:
lam yadhhab.

the meaning of this is now: he did not go.
(i.e. this particle has turned the present third person verb into past 3rd person)

notice that the ending of this verb is sukoon, so if i wrote it in a full sentence, e.g:
lam yadhhab ila almasjid
it means: he didn't go to the mosque.

then you will notice that the 'baa' of 'yadhhab' still has sukoon. so this is an example where there is 'no case ending', but of course it only appears that way, the case ending is actually sukoon.

i hope i didn't confuse you. but yeh, look up this particle in ur grammar book or whatever, if u don't already know about it, and then u'll see what im trying to say. also, i think there are other particles that can make the verb majzoom too, but i don't know them yet .

so yeh, if i'm wrong i'd appreciate it for one of u to correct me, coz im just a beginner too 

good luck in ur study of the arabic language !!

(my sources for this information were the books of the arabic course for english speakers from medinah university)


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## cherine

Hello Zaidaus, and welcome to the forum 



zaidaus said:


> so it's not like when a verb is in the accusative case, that you are 'acting' on the verb, which is what i thought when i first heard mention of accusative verbs. it just means that it's case ending is fat7a, eg, anaa ureedu an atakallam_*a*_ 7awla kalbee, as opposed too: atakallam_*u*_ al3arabiyyah. the particle 'an' made the verb following it become manSoob (accusative).


I have two small remarks here :
1- In English, we say "talk *about*", but in Arabic we say atakallamu *3an*.
2- You put the case ending for the verb but forget the word following it  it's atakallamu 'l-3arabiyya*ta*.


> lam yadhhab ila almasjid


Same here : lam yadhhab ila 'l-masjid*i*.


> Also, i think there are other particles that can make the verb majzoom too, but i don't know them yet .


The verb is majzuum when it is :
1- an imperative : idhhab اذهبْ takallam تكلَّمْ ; or
2- preceded by a "particle" أداة جزم , e.g. لم - لام الأمر - لا الناهية


> so yeh, if i'm wrong i'd appreciate it for one of u to correct me, coz im just a beginner too
> good luck in ur study of the arabic language !!


Your errors are very minimal, except that I noticed that in the last paragraphs it seems you've got tired of typing and started using chatspeak  
So, I'd like to ask you to please read the forum rules, specially rule # 22 :


> Except as a topic of discussion, chatspeak and SMS style are not acceptable. Members must do their best to write using standard language forms.


Once more, welcome to the WR forum


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## zaidaus

cherine said:


> Once more, welcome to the WR forum



Thank you for the welcome, Cherine. I will try to follow the rules as best I can


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## cherine

*Note* :
Discussion about (which language to use to discuss Arabic grammar) was moved in *this new thread*.


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## elroy

Anatoli said:


> So fathatan is put above the letter before alif, not over alif. بنتًا not بنتاً.


 We are veering off-topic, but I need to clarify something here.

The correct placement of the تنوين الفتح is indeed, despite widespread use to the contrary, on the letter before the ا and not on the ا.  Placing it on the ا is a "common error" so I'm not surprised you thought the correct placement was wrong.


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## Anatoli

Oh, thanks for that, Elroy. I should give the Mastering Arabic text the credit for doing correctly, then.


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## Oblomov

[Moderator's Note: Merged with a previous thread]
Hello everybody,

I have read that most speakers of Arabic seldom pronounce the case endings (tanwin) when speaking - that is dama, fatha and kesra to indicate nominative, accusative and dative . I would like to know does this vary according to the dialect being spoken eg do Lebanese speakers leave out all case endings while Egyptian speakers retain it. Is case necessary to clarify meaning?


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## elroy

Hi, Oblomov, and welcome to the forums. 

Your post gives me the impression that you are not aware of Arabic's status as a diglossia language, i.e. that you are not familiar with the differences between standard Arabic and spoken Arabic. If that's the case, you need to read up on that (you can start by searching for old threads on the topic ) because it'll make things much clearer to you.

Inflection for case is a feature of standard Arabic, not spoken. Case endings are therefore non-existent in spoken Arabic except for specific set phrases and expressions from standard Arabic (one example is the famous "as-salaam*u* 3alaykum").

What you read may have referred to Arabic speakers _reading_ Arabic out loud, delivering a speech in standard Arabic, etc. While it is true that case endings are not always pronounced in such situations, I would say that "seldom" is an exaggeration. See this thread for more details. I should point out that standard Arabic pronunciation conventions have nothing to do with the native dialect of the speaker.

In most cases, case endings are not necessary to clarify meaning. When they are pronounced, the reasons are usually phonological.

Finally, "tanwiin" (تنوين) does not refer to all case endings. It specifically refers to the endings with "n," that is "an," "un," and "in." The general name for all case markers is "7arakaat" (حركات).


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## Oblomov

Hi Elroy,

Thanks so much for your reply and the reference to the thread on the pronunciation of the 7arakaat; as well as clarifying what Tanwin as opposed to 7arakaat is.

I have done some reading on diglossia; (those for and against the concept) and have been told that in spoken MSA  the 7arakaat is necessary but not always used. Why is it necessary if the dropping of it doesn't affect understanding?   Does any official organisation actually lay down the rules as to  what are the acceptable features of MSA? As is the case for French. Or as is the case for English speakers in the UK who are guided by the standards laid down by the OED? 

When, where and how did MSA become the accepted standard for broadcasting and the media? Was there some sort of formal agreement amongst early radio broadcasters to speak some sort of simplified Classical Arabic?  

Is Classical Arabic like old church Slavonic or old Greek etc in that it is never used in daily life or outside of a religious context?

Sorry to bother you with so many questions, but I am interested to clarify what I have asked about because every Arabic text I have for learning Arabic, gives me a different story on the necessities of using the endings and on the relationship between MSA, Classical and local.


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## elroy

Oblomov said:


> I have done some reading on diglossia; (those for and against the concept)


 I'm confused by your parenthetical comment. Diglossia is a fact of life, not a concept. Did you mean people who think it's a good thing versus people who don't? 





> and have been told that in spoken MSA the 7arakaat is necessary but not always used. Why is it necessary if the dropping of it doesn't affect understanding?


 Well, I guess it depends on what you mean by "necessary." It's necessary if you want to read with utmost precision, but as I said in most cases it's not necessary to understand the meaning. 





> Does any official organisation actually lay down the rules as to what are the acceptable features of MSA?


 I'm going to sidestep this general question and focus on the specific topic. I don't think there are any official rules about dropping case endings within a sentence (it is acceptable to drop them at the end of a sentence or at a pause). I think it's something that just happened, or maybe it's always been the case. Either way, you would not be frowned upon if you read a text out loud without pronouncing every ending - but of course it wouldn't be wrong to do so.





> When, where and how did MSA become the accepted standard for broadcasting and the media? Was there some sort of formal agreement amongst early radio broadcasters to speak some sort of simplified Classical Arabic?


 As Arabs we do not distinguish between MSA and Classical Arabic, as the latter is simply an older version of the former and the linguistic differences are minor, mostly limited to obsolete words or structures that are uncommon today. The language used in the media has always been "fus7a," and no, I don't think there was ever a formal agreement among broadcasters to use a more relaxed version of the language. I think that we simply don't feel the need to pronounce every single case ending when we're reading something, since it's not necessary for comprehension and efficiency usually wins over meticulous precision. 





> Is Classical Arabic like old church Slavonic or old Greek etc in that it is never used in daily life or outside of a religious context?


 It's hard to answer that question because I (like most Arabs) don't think in terms of colloquial/MSA/classical but in terms of fus7a/3aammi. We have had numerous threads on the contexts and situations in which fus7a, as opposed to 3aammi, is used.

As a final note, almost all of your questions have come up before, so please search for older threads before asking any new ones.  If you have a question related to something discussed in an older thread, please ask it in that thread.


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## Sidjanga

[Moderator's Note: Merged with a previous thread]
Hi all,

Does the pronunciation of the case endings have any influence on which syllable the word stress falls?

For example: هي في المَدْرَسَةِ.

*Without *case ending (as I take it this is stressed): [fi:l*ma*drasa]

*With *case endings: Do you say [fi:l*ma*drasati] (no influence) or [fi:lma'*dra*sati] (shift in word stress)?

And even if this should not be the case here, do case endings ever influence word stress?
.


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## elroy

Sigianga said:


> *Without *case ending (as I take it this is stressed): [fi:l*ma*drasa]
> 
> *With *case endings: Do you say [fi:l*ma*drasati] (no influence)  or [fi:lma'*dra*sati] (shift in word stress) ?


 So yes, whether a case ending is pronounced does affect stress.


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## Sidjanga

Yes, I thought it would be like this. It sounds a lot more natural. Thanks for the confirmation.

As to the final case endings *before a pause*, is it just not a custom to pronounce them, or would pronuncing them actually sound/be considered wrong? (or maybe "just" unbearably pedantic...)


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## WadiH

Is there a difference? 

By the way, I've always hated having to convert _tanwiin al-fat7_ into a long _aleph_ when pausing, e.g. "kitabaa" instead of "kitaban."  I would have liked to be able to just say "kitab."  Then I found out that some tribes of Arabia used to say "kitab" instead of "kitabaa" when pausing, so that's the rule I've officially decided to follow.


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## Sidjanga

Thank you for your answer, Wadi Hanifa.
(Up to now, I wasn't even aware that you are supposed to pronounce ـاً before a pause as [aa].)

And well, I do think there is a difference  (for example, if you very precisely pronounced each and every sound that's represented on the paper before you when reading out German, this would be perceived to be hypercorrect - i.e., sort of the "opposite" of wrong -, but still unbearably pedantic, and much more so when speaking).

In any case, when in an exchange about the pronunciation of the case endings before a pause I said that I was under the impression that those were not normally pronounced - not even in impeccable MSA -, I was told that yes, that it would still be better, more correct, or in whatsoever other way preferable to always pronounce them, even before a pause / at the end of a sentence.
So I basically wanted/needed a second (or third) opinion.


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## WadiH

Sigianga said:


> And well, I do think there is a difference  (for example, if you very precisely pronounced each and every sound that's represented on the paper before you when reading out German, this would be perceived to be hypercorrect - i.e., sort of the "opposite" of wrong -, but still unbearably pedantic, and much more so when speaking).



You misunderstood me.  What I meant to say was, when it comes to language, there is no real difference between something being "uncustomary" and something being "incorrect."  Either way, it's best to avoid it.  So, if you're pausing on a word, try not to put a case/mood ending on it or it will sound strange.  Whether the Arab grammarians of old considered this an "error" or simply undesirable I do not know.


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## Mahaodeh

There was a rule I read one place or the other, it says: العرب لا تبدأ بساكن ولا تقف على متحرك; I think it's a rule, one way or the other.


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## djamal 2008

Mahaodeh said:


> There was a rule I read one place or the other, it says: العرب لا تبدأ بساكن ولا تقف على متحرك; I think it's a rule, one way or the other.


You right that's why we say aflatoun for Plato, for example.
Also, the ta al marbouta is pronouced ha at the end of the sentence.

و لا يلتقا سكنين لذا يكون التنوين ما قبل الألف في حال يكون النصب على كلمة نكرة لكون الحركة على الألف سكون,

قرأت كتابًاْ


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## TheArabicStudent

If you're trying to be understood and be able to understand Arabic in the quickest amount of time possible ignore all that stuff.  You don't need to use it.  The vast majority of Arabs don't use them.  Even in some news broadcasts they will just put a sukuun at the end of the words (i.e. not use the fatHa, kasra, etc).  It takes a long time to master and remember what ending needs to go where, and if you're speaking and trying to remember which tashkeel to put, you're going to take an hour to say a sentence.  I'd advise you to ignore all that and focus on learning the language (words and phrases).  This is the approach I took and it has worked out great for me.  In my opinion the tashkeel are superflous anyway.  You're always going to know where the subject, object, etc are in the sentence without having any markers, so why have them at all?  They're basically just tradition and slow down your speaking.  I'm sure most people won't agree with this assessment, but I'm open to reasons why I'm wrong.


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## ayed

TheArabicStudent, then he is going to fall in the trap of what so-called "*mispronunciation*" --allaH.n *اللحن *


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## WadiH

Wadi Hanifa said:


> You misunderstood me.  What I meant to say was, when it comes to language, there is no real difference between something being "uncustomary" and something being "incorrect."  Either way, it's best to avoid it.  So, if you're pausing on a word, try not to put a case/mood ending on it or it will sound strange.  Whether the Arab grammarians of old considered this an "error" or simply undesirable I do not know.



I feel I should revise what I said here somewhat.  It's not _that_ uncommon to pause on a _7araka_.  In fact, when it comes to _tanwiin al-fat7_, it's more common to pronounce it than not when pausing, even though that's not the canonical rule (e.g. people tend to say "laysa kabiiran" instead of "laysa kabiraa").  Also, when reading poetry, you usually have to include the case ending at the end of each hemistich for metrical reasons.

Also, what the Arabic Student says is correct.  There is no reason to try to master speaking with all the correct case/mood endings unless you really want to.  But if you want to become a scholar of the language or of Islam then of course you must at least understand the rules even if you don't apply them.  And if you want to be able to read the Quran or classical/MSA poetry, then you would want to have a sense for the correct case/mood endings, but not everyone who learns Arabic is interested in the Quran or in poetry.


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## Mahaodeh

TheArabicStudent said:


> In my opinion the tashkeel are superflous anyway. You're always going to know where the subject, object, etc are in the sentence without having any markers, so why have them at all? They're basically just tradition and slow down your speaking. I'm sure most people won't agree with this assessment, but I'm open to reasons why I'm wrong.


 
The 7arakaat gave the language a lot of flexibility; without them, you will have to follow a strict sequence to figure out the subject from the object; consider this:

رأى محمدٌ زيدًا
محمدٌ رأى زيدًا
محمدٌ زيدًا رأى
رأى زيدًا محمدٌ
زيدًا رأى محمدٌ
زيدًا محمدٌ رأى

Technically, all the above are correct regardless of how common they are used. With tashkeel, they all mean the same thing, without tashkeel the first three mean the opposite of the second three. Changing the sequance is only one use, but it's much rather common in literature than most think. For a real example, without tashkeel this aya: إنما يخشى اللهَ من عبادهِ العلماءُ means the exact opposite!

Another example is one I read in المحاسن والأضداد للجاحظ several years ago: the book was a new print without tashkeel and mentions the following story (in my own words): دخل أعرابي قرية فسمع المؤذن يقول "أشهد أن محمدا رسول الله" فقال الأعرابي: يفعل ماذا؟. It took me about half an hour to figure out what the beduin meant! Should there have been 7arakaat I would have understood it much faster. The mu'azin said: أشهد أنّ محمدًا رسولَ الله, which is basically considered لحن and the sentence is not complete, and the beduin was asking about خبر أنّ.


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## clevermizo

It's interesting that this thread was revived, and I just wanted to note again my slightly atypical style for a Western learner. I speak colloquial Arabic and read fus7a. When I studied fus7a for the first time, I used a text in the Arabic of the Qur'an, so reading with full inflection (except when pausing) is just the normal way for me to read. 

However, I do often omit inflection, and this is due to influence from the colloquial Arabic that I speak. I sometimes find myself pronouncing words in a fus7a text as though they were colloquial words. 

At any rate, my knee jerk reaction to TheArabicStudent's post was negative. How can we not read fus7a without some understanding of these elements of grammar? And as regards speaking, we're not going to be speaking fus7a anyway, so the matter of using proper case endings is moot. However, I realize after that initial reaction that actually this is not really the modern state of affairs, for better or worse, and TheArabicStudent is mostly correct.

However, I still feel there is merit in learning Arabic "more completely," but that stems from my interests in linguistics and language in general and not practical application.


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## Sidjanga

TheArabicStudent said:


> [...] Even in some news broadcasts they will just put a sukuun at the end of the words (i.e. not use the fatHa, kasra, etc). It takes a long time to master and remember what ending needs to go where, and if you're speaking and trying to remember which tashkeel to put, you're going to take an hour to say a sentence. I'd advise you to ignore all that and focus on learning the language (words and phrases). [...]


I personally find the knowledge about cases/case endings absolutely essential to understanding how the language really works, and I certainly wouldn't want to miss that knowledge (even if it then doesn't always "surface" acoustically).
And I really don't find it takes such a long time to understand the logic behind them and remember which constellation/case takes which ending, nor do I have the impression that it considerably slows down my speaking or my learning process; either way, it certainly greatly enriches and strengthens the latter.

In any case - unless I am much mistaken -, even if you do not pronounce all case endings at the end of each and every word, at least when reading out an MSA text (or speaking in the media, or on some similar occasion) you still need to know which case appears when and how, in order to get cases right *inside a word*, before possessive suffixes for example, and at least sometimes between words.


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## Josh_

There are really only a few cases (instances) when case endings are apparent in writing (without full _tashkiil_ that is).  One is when an indefinite noun is in the accusative and therefore takes takes a _fatha_ at the end (صوتا, for example) and the other concerns the masculine plural ending and the dual -- ـون and ـان, respectively, when in the nominative and ـين for both when in the accusative or genitive.  Other than that there are no visual clues as to which case a word is in, unless you are reading a fully vowelized text.  Sure, sometimes confusion could arise in a text, but most of the time the intended meaning is clear from context.

So I tend to agree that, while a knowledge of case endings may enrich one's understanding of Arabic, it is not absolutely necessary.  I would tend to think that if it was more important, case endings would appear in texts more often.  But as it is most texts are unpointed.  Case must be inferred from the context.  In fact, the only times when they are deemed essential, as per tradition, is when reading the Quran and reading poetry.  And in these cases texts are generally always fully voweled.  Perhaps we could add texts targeted to children to that.


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## Sidjanga

Of course, cases have to be mostly inferred from context (in normal, non-vowelised texts.)
But I am under the impression that precisely for that reason it is essential to understand about them, because - even when not pronouncing all case endings at the "very end" of every word - you otherwise wouldn't be able to correctly read out sentences or phrases like this one, for example, where case markers appear within the words before the possessive suffixes, would you?

رأى أبك أطفالك مع أصدقائهم قي حديقتنا أمس.


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## TheArabicStudent

Sigianga, I just accept that I will not say the sentence right.  I'd say something like:

رأى أبُكَِ أطفالُكَِ مع أصدقائهٍم قي حديقتِنا أمس.

That's probably wrong, but I only put the tashkeel on because you asked.  Normally I just put a sukuun on everything like in the dialects and guess based on whatever sounds right to me when I have to put the tashkeel on.  I took a grammar test on the tashkeel/tanweens when I was on an immersion in Jordan and got the worst grade in the class, but I was one of the best at the language in comprehension and speaking.  The teachers asked me why I did so badly and I told them that I just never paid attention when they were teaching that stuff.  It just wasn't important to me.  If it doesn't help me understand the language better, it's no use to me, and I can understand a sentence the same way whether it has tashkeel on it or not.  The best way to learn grammar anyway, imo, is exposure.  Grammar books are fine if you already know all the grammar and want to see why it's done the way it is, but learning a language's grammar for the first time from a grammar book isn't the right way to go about it.   In my belief all the other students spent too much time learning the tashkeel and not enough time trying to understand what was being said.  

These are my thoughts on language learning and they work for me.  Maybe others find that being sure of all the grammar before they delve into the language helps them to learn better.


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## xebonyx

In response to Clevermizo, I don't think there's no use to speaking fus7a without the markings, even if you won't be speaking it. My personal philosophy is that using as many methods as you can to practice fus7a, which includes speaking it aloud, being corrected (of course these corrections can only be assessed so much, since there are many who make mistakes with it since it isn't generally spoken), in addition to watching news and reading.Those of us who feel that by hearing ourselves will facilitate our learning process in writing and comprehension, shouldn't be made to assume that the tactic is moot or worthless.


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## Lone_Wolf

[Moderator's Note: Merged with a previous thread]
AHlan ya asdeeq,

I am confused over the issue of case endings in MSA/Literary Arabic. I am aware that when MSA is spoken, the case endings are usually not pronounced except in very formal, religious or academic discussions. Because of that, I was made aware that a house can be either Bayt*un* or simply Bayt based on the situation.

Where I am now confused at is that I was listening to (and reading along) a newspaper text in which a few (not all) of the words *ARE* pronounced with the case endings. And earlier today I was listening to one of the lessons in an audio course in which the word for garden (Hadeeqa) was pronounced as Hadeeqa*tun* in the phrase Hadeeqatun Jameela (a beautiful garden). The narrator of the course explained that this ending is added to this word (among others) depending upon its position in the sentence (something I do know comes with the territory of case endings and noun declensions). And this course claims to be a _simplified_ variety of MSA, not the high literary kind.

Is there anyone here who can help me clear up my confusion on this? I am beginning to wonder if some case endings are _naturally_ used in simplified or everyday MSA. 

Shukran Jazeelan in advance.


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## clevermizo

Lone_Wolf said:


> I am confused over the issue of case endings in MSA/Literary Arabic. I am aware that when MSA is spoken, the case endings are usually not pronounced except in very formal, religious or academic discussions.


That's not really true. Case endings are used in journalism all the time, but it depends on the individuals own abilities in speaking like that in a fluid manner. Case endings are especially employed when saying or reading something pre-scripted. When people try to speak MSA they are sometimes omitted (probably because it isn't a terribly natural way for native speakers to speak), but omitting the case endings is not something done _because_ the discourse is "informal."


> Where I am now confused at is that I was listening to (and reading along) a newspaper text in which a few (not all) of the words *ARE* pronounced with the case endings. And earlier today I was listening to one of the lessons in an audio course in which the word for garden (Hadeeqa) was pronounced as Hadeeqa*tun* in the phrase Hadeeqatun Jameela (a beautiful garden). The narrator of the course explained that this ending is added to this word (among others) depending upon its position in the sentence (something I do know comes with the territory of case endings and noun declensions). And this course claims to be a _simplified_ variety of MSA, not the high literary kind.


Well remember that you don't pronounce the endings at the end of a phrase or at a pause in speech or reading. This probably accounts for the times you hear it versus the times you don't.


> ...  everyday MSA.


What's "everyday MSA"?


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## Lone_Wolf

Thanx Clevermizo for the insights. Especially the quote below...


clevermizo said:


> Case endings are especially employed when saying or reading something pre-scripted. Vhen people try to speak MSA they are sometimes omitted (probably because it isn't a terribly natural way for native speakers to speak), but omitting the case endings is not something done _because_ the discourse is "informal."



I find this interesting. Thanx again.

Also, the term "everyday MSA" wasn't a good term to use. I was driving at what I have read described as _MSA Simplified_...I'm guessing MSA with a deliberate omission of the grammatical case endings.

Anyway, thanx for the reply.


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## clevermizo

Lone_Wolf said:


> I'm guessing MSA with a deliberate omission of the grammatical case endings.



I'm not sure such a thing exists, except as a method of instruction to non-native speakers.


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## Serafín33

This thread has been quite an amusing reading. Thank you Anatoli for asking about it. 

Talking about claims made by books written for non-natives, what do you think of the claim that, all in all, cases are _always_ pronounced if they're spelled out (e.g. the ــًا _-an_ at the end of words in منصوب), even of all the other words in the sentences are not pronounced with cases?

I specially wonder about those words that are sometimes called to belong to "the defective declension" (when you say that a noun or adjective is اسم المنقوص), because they come from a word that had w or y as the last root.

For example, if one were to say "the lawyer came/arrived late", a possible translation is وصل المحامي متأخرًا. Could somebody actually read it as:
"waSal 'al-mu7aam mut'akhir"?
"waSal 'al-mu7aam mut'akhiran"?

Or is it that this book of mine is right, and that no matter how many cases are ommitted, it would _always_ be necessary to read the -ī and the -an endings here? Thus:
"waSal 'al-mu7aami mut'akhiran".

(Though of course, we know that in "pure" foS7a one says "waSala l-mu7aamii mut'akhiran". )


elroy said:


> Anatoli said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So fathatan is put above the letter  before alif, not over alif. بنتًا not بنتاً.
> 
> 
> 
> We are veering off-topic, but I need to clarify something here.
> 
> The correct placement of the تنوين الفتح is indeed, despite widespread  use to the contrary, on the letter before the ا and not on the ا.   Placing it on the ا is a "common error" so I'm not surprised you thought  the correct placement was wrong.
Click to expand...

What? It's the first time I hear about this... I see the تنوين الفتح so much over the 'alif... It's indeed such a common error!


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## Anatoli

Neqitan said:


> ...
> Talking about claims made by books written for non-natives, what do you think of the claim that, all in all, cases are _always_ pronounced if they're spelled out (e.g. the ــًا _-an_ at the end of words in منصوب), even of all the other words in the sentences are not pronounced with cases?
> ....
> (Though of course, we know that in "pure" foS7a one says "waSala l-mu7aamii mut'akhiran". )
> What? It's the first time I hear about this... I see the تنوين الفتح so much over the 'alif... It's indeed such a common error!


Look at your 2nd paragraph.


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## Serafín33

And if you look more closely, or copy-paste the text into a Unicode -> Unicode hexadecimal codes converter, you'll notice the tanwīn is not over the 'alif, but over the "taṭwīl". xD (To say something in my defense.)

Anyway, I just realized that the second part of my question about cases of the أسماء ناقصة is kind of stupid, since the ـي is not a case, it's the root actually showing up.

But anyway, would it be possible to read متأخرًا as "mut'akhir", even if the ــًـــا ending (is what I did clearer this way? =p) is actually spelled out?


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## Masjeen

هنالك عبارة تقول... *سكن تسلم*


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## clevermizo

Neqitan said:


> But anyway, would it be possible to read متأخرًا as "mut'akhir", even if the ــًـــا ending (is what I did clearer this way? =p) is actually spelled out?



No, I don't think that would happen. I don't know what the rule taught to foreigners is (I wasn't educated in fus7a in the same way as a lot of Westerners), but technically speaking if in pause, the ـًا ending is supposed to be read [-aa]. (See Wadi's post somewhere earlier). So technically is should  muta2akhkhiraa in pause. However, I think most people pronounce the ending as [-an] whenever it is spelled out in writing, regardless of pause.


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## Lone_Wolf

Hello all,

Please forgive my ignorance and I certainly hope that I do not offend anyone, but it appears to me that the grammatical case endings do not serve any true purpose and that the rules concerning them are adhered to just because. I have read this and other threads here and have done some more research outside of this forum and the general consesus seems to be that the case endings don't serve any relevant purpose as the meanings of the words and the sentences they appear in do not change.

I have just started a few days ago with an Arabic course that does include learning about the grammatical case endings and so I pretty much HAVE to deal with them. I have a question though...

Can someone learn about the case endings strictly for *reading* purposes and elect _NOT_ to use them when speaking and writing? In other words, restrict my knowledge and use of the case endings when reading something that has the case endings on the words (like what some people do when reading a pre-scripted document aloud) but to not use case endings when speaking or writing something not pre-scripted?


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## clevermizo

Lone_Wolf said:


> Please forgive my ignorance and I certainly hope that I do not offend anyone, but it appears to me that the grammatical case endings do not serve any true purpose and that the rules concerning them are adhered to just because.



That may be in modern times, I'm not sure what native speakers think. But technically, there are cases when without the correct endings applied there would be ambiguity. For example:

رأى صديق محمد أحمد

Is this "Muhammad's friend saw Ahmad" or "Ahmad saw Muhammad's friend"?

يقع بيت صديقي الجديد في هذه المنطقة

Is this "My new friend's house is located in this area" or "My friend's new house is located in this area?"

Furthermore, I don't like the argument of "just because." For example, verbs in English almost always require a subject pronoun. In standard English we also have conjugation. Why do we adhere *just because* to rules like say "I am" versus "He is" (I am not considering dialect English). Since I nearly always have to say the subject pronoun, why not simplify it to "I is, he is". In Spanish, we drop pronouns so "es" would otherwise be ambiguous, and the different forms "soy, eres, es, somos" serve a tangible purpose.

There are always grammatical principles at work which are vestiges of history and may not serve much purpose in modern usage. However the question is about what is idiomatic usage and what is not among native speakers. In standard English, native speakers prefer to conjugate verbs despite it being usually unnecessary from a functional point of view. Similarly, educated Arabic native speakers apply case endings where natural or appropriate. I believe a learner of a language should attempt to emulate the behavior of native speakers of that language and not create their own rules.

If you are writing something to someone, you may also be expected to adhere to correct spelling. If you write "I want to be an engineer" and you write أريد أن أكون مهندس instead of أريد أن أكون مهندسا, that would be perceived as a spelling mistake. So you probably want to minimize spelling mistakes, especially in a formal letter or similar things that you write to people.

As far as speaking goes, well I don't know really what the best approach is because I don't converse in standard Arabic, I converse in colloquial Arabic. I also write informal letters in colloquial Arabic. In both of these cases, case endings are not especially relevant.


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## Lone_Wolf

Hi Clevermizo,


clevermizo said:


> That may be in modern times, I'm not sure what native speakers think. But technically, there are cases when without the correct endings applied there would be ambiguity. For example:
> 
> رأى صديق محمد أحمد
> 
> Is this "Muhammad's friend saw Ahmad" or "Ahmad saw Muhammad's friend"?



I don't think this example is sound nor proves the necessity of the case endings. In order to make sure the statement is not ambiguous, one simply needs to place each word in the correct place of the sentence in order to convey whatever idea or statement they wish to convey. Without the case endings, the above statement (with the words in the place you have them in now) would be "Muhammad's friend saw Ahmad". If you want the above statement to say "Ahmad saw Muhammad's friend" then you change the order of the words to make it 

رأى أحمد صديق محمد  

In this way, I am able to communicate either idea without the use of case endings.


> يقع بيت صديقي الجديد في هذه المنطقة
> 
> Is this "My new friend's house is located in this area" or "My friend's new house is located in this area?"


Again, I will apply the same principle as I did in your first example above to communicate either sentence/idea.


> Furthermore, I don't like the argument of "just because." For example, verbs in English almost always require a subject pronoun. In standard English we also have conjugation. Why do we adhere *just because* to rules like say "I am" versus "He is" (I am not considering dialect English). Since I nearly always have to say the subject pronoun, why not simplify it to "I is, he is". In Spanish, we drop pronouns so "es" would otherwise be ambiguous, and the different forms "soy, eres, es, somos" serve a tangible purpose.


Well, I used the "just because" statement because the case endings are not needed. I have even seen one person here describe them as _Superflous_ and I am inclined to agree. If they were an absolute necessity and inseperable from the language itself, then there would be no *option* to use or not to use them.


> I believe a learner of a language should attempt to emulate the behavior of native speakers of that language and not create their own rules.


I certainly do not wish to create my own rules and I apologize to all here if I had come off that way. But I also disagree with the notion that the use of grammatical case endings are the behaviour of "native speakers" as native speakers DO NOT speak "natively" with the use of case endings.


> If you are writing something to someone, you may also be expected to adhere to correct spelling. If you write "I want to be an engineer" and you write أريد أن أكون مهندس instead of أريد أن أكون مهندسا, that would be perceived as a spelling mistake. So you probably want to minimize spelling mistakes, especially in a formal letter or similar things that you write to people.


Who would perceive it as a spelling mistake? Is it _truely_ a spelling mistake? I believe it is only a spelling mistake if the case endings were an absolute, necessary and inseperable aspect of the Arabic language. But the word for engineer (muhandis) I have come across on numerous occasions in my studies and your example is actually the first time I have read that it would be considered a spelling mistake if I did not write it with the *extra* letter (alif) and fathatain on the end of it. If such a thing is a spelling mistake, then the Arabic newspapers should pointed at as making spelling mistakes on a regular basis as all of the ones I have ever come across are written without the case endings and vowel signs.

I sincerely thank you for your feedback and insight. You are truly knowledgable and I am appreciative of your help. I think most (if not all) of my questions concerning case endings have been answered here. I feel safe and confident that I can gloss over the case endings and focus on the actual language itself. If the case endings were a necessary and fundamental aspect of the language, then the option of not using them would not exist.

Thanx Again.


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## elroy

Lone_Wolf said:


> Is it _truely_ a spelling mistake?


 Yes, just like _truely_ in your sentence.

You could choose to ignore case endings in all situations, just as you could choose to ignore a number of other aspects of Arabic, but in doing so, your usage of the language would deviate from what is normal among educated native speakers.

Moderator Note: Please spell the word _thanks_ correctly.  This is a language forum, and we expect all users to adhere to standard spelling.


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## Josh_

Lone_Wolf said:


> I don't think this example is sound nor proves the necessity of the case endings. In order to make sure the statement is not ambiguous, one simply needs to place each word in the correct place of the sentence in order to convey whatever idea or statement they wish to convey. Without the case endings, the above statement (with the words in the place you have them in now) would be "Muhammad's friend saw Ahmad". If you want the above statement to say "Ahmad saw Muhammad's friend" then you change the order of the words to make it
> 
> رأى أحمد صديق محمد
> 
> In this way, I am able to communicate either idea without the use of case endings.


What is the "correct" order? It is true that the most common sentence orderings in Arabic are VSO and SVO, but other orderings, such as VOS and even OSV, are possible as well. Arabic sentence structure is more flexible than English which is fixed.

For example, in terms of VOS, if the object is much shorter than the subject it will in can come before the subject:

حضر اللقاء عدد من العلماء والسياسيون.ـ
A number of scientists and politicians attended the meeting.

In terms of OSV, in this thread we discussed this sentence in which the subject came first:

الزُمُرُّدَ أحب
(I like emeralds.)

Granted a sentence like that is not common, but there are other instances of SOV that are more common. For instance one way of phrasing a "whether it be this or that" clause it by placing one of the objects before the verb كان:

كل سؤال، أكبيرًا كان أم صغيرًا، مهم.ـ
Every question, whether big or small, is important.

In the embedded clause "أكبيرًا كان أم صغيرًا" the word كبيرًا is the object of كان. the subject is ضمير مستتر (implicit pronoun) هو which refers back to سؤال.

Anyway, all that was somewhat related to the question at hand, but also somewhat of a divergence. The point is that while there is a predominant sentence ordering in Arabic, it is not fixed. So Clevermizo's sentence could be read either way depending on case endings.

But if his example is not satisfactory, how about this?:

ان الرجل كريم.ـ

Does this read "The man is generous" or "The man moaned like an addax (a screwhorn antelope)."

Voweled like this:

إنَّ الرجلَ كريمٌ.ـ
(inna 'r-rajula kariimun)

...it reads "The man is generous."

but voweled like like:

أنَّ الرجلُ كريمٍ.ـ
(anna 'rajulu ka-riimin)
...it reads "the man moaned like an addax."



> Again, I will apply the same principle as I did in your first example above to communicate either sentence/idea.


This has nothing to do about parts of speech ordering. This question revolves around the genitive construction. He is asking whether "بيت صديقي الجديد" is "my new friend's house" or "my friend's new house." Without case endings it is ambiguous. Unlike the previous sentences stated which are rare, this type of ambiguous construction is not. Often the intended meaning is clear from context, but without context, there would be no way to tell, unless the case endings are added.


> Who would perceive it as a spelling mistake? Is it _truely_ a spelling mistake? I believe it is only a spelling mistake if the case endings were an absolute, necessary and inseperable aspect of the Arabic language. But the word for engineer (muhandis) I have come across on numerous occasions in my studies and your example is actually the first time I have read that it would be considered a spelling mistake if I did not write it with the *extra* letter (alif) and fathatain on the end of it.


Yes, it is a spelling mistake, as Elroy, noted. Unlike other case endings, which are not visible in an unvoweled text, the tanwiin al-fatH is visible. So its noninclusion is tantamount to a spelling mistake.


> If such a thing is a spelling mistake, then the Arabic newspapers should pointed at as making spelling mistakes on a regular basis as all of the ones I have ever come across are written without the case endings and vowel signs.


Really? I find that kind of hard to believe. Sure there are errors and oversights in newspapers all the time, but (presumably) educated journalists and editors routinely ignoring the tanwiin al-fatH? I can't see that. All newspapers I have seen always write the tanwiin al-fatH.


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## clevermizo

Lone_Wolf said:


> Who would perceive it as a spelling mistake? Is it _truely_ a spelling mistake? I believe it is only a spelling mistake if the case endings were an absolute, necessary and inseperable aspect of the Arabic language.



Ok, let's suppose omitting the ــا is not a spelling mistake.

I have three questions. If you omit all case endings:

1) How do you spell "Your friends" - أصدقاؤك , أصديقاءك or أصدقائك and how do you pronounce it?

2) How do you say and spell  "Two books" - كتابان or كتابين

3) How do you say and spell "The teachers" - المعلمون or المعلمين


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## Lone_Wolf

Elroy, Josh, Clevermizo

You guys win.....

Actually, after reading a chapter of one of my grammar books last night I actually sat and pondered this issue at length and I came to the conclusion that it would actually be best if I did make a sincere and concerted effort with the case endings. Regardless if anyone agrees with their existence and usage or not, fact is they are recognized as part of the language and chances are I'll be short changing myself if I forgo them completely. I want to learn to read and understand literary Arabic and I wish to be able to RECOGNIZE and UNDERSTAND the case endings when I do come across them and the functions they serve. However, I believe it is considered acceptable to omit them if one is speaking in MSA (for whatever reason or in whatever situation.)

One last thing Clevermizo....

In your examples above are you addressing case endings or plural endings? They are not the same thing. For the dual as in example 2 above (Kitabaan) I thought it was common knowledge that the dual is its own form ( apart from singular and plural) and will always take the form of the alif and nuun on the end of the dual noun and that a case ending was different and uses the alif along with tanween al-fatah, or am I missing something...again?


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## clevermizo

Lone_Wolf said:


> One last thing Clevermizo....
> 
> In your examples above are you addressing case endings or plural endings? They are not the same thing. For the dual as in example 2 above (Kitabaan) I thought it was common knowledge that the dual is its own form ( apart from singular and plural) and will always take the form of the alif and nuun on the end of the dual noun and that a case ending was different and uses the alif along with tanween al-fatah, or am I missing something...again?



Yes you are missing something, you just need to learn about case in Arabic. That will come with time.

"Two books" is _kitaabaani _كتابان when it is مرفوعة (nominative) and _kitaabayni _كتابين when the word is منصوبة or مجرورة (accusative or genitive). Thus you need to know the correct case in order to spell it correctly.

"Your friends" is أصدقاؤك [aSdiqaa2uka] when مرفوعة, and أصدقاءك [aSdiqaa2aka] when منصوبة and finally أصدقائك [aSdiqaa2ika] when مجرورة. Again, you need to know the correct case in order to spell the word correctly.

Finally, معلّمون [mu3allimuuna] is مرفوعة and معلّمين [mu3allimiina] is منصوبة and مجرورة. Both mean "teachers" but you need to know the correct case in order to know whether to spell it with a waaw or a yaa2.

These are clear examples of how case is integrated into spelling in standard Arabic. I don't see how you could just pick one form and use it all the time regardless of case. 

Unfortunately, most textbooks for Westerners in the last decade or so attempt to dumb these things down. I think it's much better to learn to use them properly, and then afterward learn the times in which they are omitted (which by the way has less to do with "option" and more to do with rules and patterns of usage). And for my examples above, there are no occasions in which the case can be omitted because it is not simply an "ending" you can leave off, but integrated into the words themselves.

Here are some example sentences:

a) هذان كتابان (These are two books)
b) اشتريت كتابين (I bought two books)
c) التقيت أصدقاءك في المحطة (I met your friends at the station).
d) أصدقاؤك لطفاء (Your friends are nice people).
e) ذهبت إلى المحطة مع أصدقائك (I went to the station with your friends).
f) لا أحب المعلمين الذين يعملون في هذه المدرسة (I don't like the teachers that work at this school).
g) المعلمون يضربون من العمل بسبب المعاملة غير المنصفة (The teachers are on strike because of unfair treatment)


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## Lone_Wolf

clevermizo said:


> Yes you are missing something, you just need to learn about case in Arabic.



Yeah, I'm starting to realize more and more 


> These are clear examples of how case is integrated into spelling in standard Arabic. I don't see how you could just pick one form and use it all the time regardless of case.



Umm, yeah...I'm starting to come to grips with that as well. 


> Unfortunately, most textbooks for Westerners in the last decade or so attempt to dumb these things down. I think it's much better to learn to use them properly, and then afterward learn the times in which they are omitted (which by the way has less to do with "option" and more to do with rules and patterns of usage). And for my examples above, there are no occasions in which the case can be omitted because it is not simply an "ending" you can leave off, but integrated into the words themselves.


Yeah, I just learned today that the endings for the sound masculine plural fit into the "case ending" category we are discussing. This I did not know until today. Up to this point, I thought the sound masculine plural ending was something seperate from a case ending.


> Here are some example sentences:
> 
> a) هذان كتابان (These are two books)
> b) اشتريت كتابين (I bought two books)
> c) التقيت أصدقاءك في المحطة (I met your friends at the station).
> d) أصدقاؤك لطفاء (Your friends are nice people).
> e) ذهبت إلى المحطة مع أصدقائك (I went to the station with your friends).
> f) لا أحب المعلمين الذين يعملون في هذه المدرسة (I don't like the teachers that work at this school).
> g) المعلمون يضربون من العمل بسبب المعاملة غير المنصفة (The teachers are on strike because of unfair treatment)


I would like to ask you, but I would also like Josh and Elroy to answer this question as well.

Would it be better to go into the case endings in the beginning of my studies or later on down the line once I have mastered certain other fundamental aspects of the language?

By the way....


> I think it's much better to learn to use them properly, and then  afterward learn the times in which they are omitted (which by the way  has less to do with "option" and more to do with rules and patterns of  usage). And for my examples above, there are no occasions in which the  case can be omitted because it is not simply an "ending" you can leave  off, but integrated into the words themselves.


This is good guidance and information that I need. Thanks for that. I can see coming here with my queries will be of great benefit.


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## clevermizo

Lone_Wolf said:


> Would it be better to go into the case endings in the beginning of my studies or later on down the line once I have mastered certain other fundamental aspects of the language?



This depends on your goals. If your goal is to read and passively understand, I wouldn't worry about them too much.

If your goal is to be able to write and compose fluently (and write essays, papers, editorials, commentaries, formal letters, etc.), then it's crucial to know how to use them, yes.

And if your goal is informal everyday conversation, well then I suggest you learn a dialect of Arabic.

What I really suggest though, is just take the book you have and follow it from beginning to end, despite its teaching method. Do all the exercises, get all the basic background you need. I think you'll find when you've finished your beginner's course you won't even worry about this anymore.


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## ihsaan

[Moderator's Note: Merged with a previous thread]
Hi,
I was wondering how one can "speak MSA" in terms of excluding the endings of words.

For example: How would one say (to a female): "How´s your studies?"

Would you say:
Kayfa dirasatuki?
Or:
Kayfa dirasatuk?

I ask a Palestinian girl about this, and she said that she thought she´d go for the second option, and not the first (which was the one I though it´d be). She said she would say it like this even if she spoken to a girl.

How do you solve how to speak MSA (if you want it to be a little more natural-sounding/somewhat more casual/less stiff)? (I don´t want to get into the whole debate about MSA not being natural to speak or sounding weird etc. I do understand that native Arabic speakers don´t find it natural per se to talk in MSA.  )


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## WadiH

I think "kayfa diraasatuki?" is more common.

You should distinguish an ending like the "i" in "diraasatuki," which signifies gender, from true case/mood markers.  Generally, even "unmarked" MSA will tend to retain the terminal vowels on words that are مبنيّة, e.g. kayfa v. kayf, kataba v. katab, etc.

Also, words like دائماً مثلاً قطعاً رأساً مباشرةً دوماً دائماً أبداً (forgot the English term for these -- hope someone else pitches in) tend to retain the case ending of tanwiin al-fat7.


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## ihsaan

Thank you for your reply.

You are right, of course. My example was not a good one, but it was an example that came to mind as I recently discussed speaking Arabic with this friend of mine, and I forgot that this example wasn´t very representative of my question.

Do you always pronounce the endings in for example an idafa (dirasat*u*ki)? Someone told me that some times they are left out?


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## WadiH

I haven't paid attention to what others to, but I personally preserve the case ending and I'm not really sure one would omit it in such a situation.

By the way, for the masculine gender, I think _diraasatuk _may be more common that _diraasatuka_.


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## ihsaan

Ah, I see. Thank you for clarifying.


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## elroy

Personally, I say _diraasatuka_ and _diraasatuki_.  _Diraasatuk_ sounds okay to me if said to a guy, though, but it sounds off if said to a girl (even though I know it's correct and acceptable).  I wouldn't leave out the _u_, though.


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## rayloom

Although I'm not advocating it, some people speak a pausal form of MSA. That is:
-They drop the final short vowel of every word, including case endings. 
-Clitic pronouns have their final short vowel placed in front of the consonant; diraastak, diraastik. 
-The suffixed -ti (of the 2nd person feminine) becomes -tii, darastii.

Other changes:
-Diphthongs becomes monophthongs, kayf-->kef (elongated e).
-Hamzah (glottal stops) are usually omitted or elided into a y or w according to the short vowel after it.
-The -t feminine marker for the singular is pronounced t in the construct, -ah otherwise.
-Syntax becomes very important. eg: subject precedes the object always.
-Adverbs which are in the accusative always retain the tanwin as Wadi Hanifa said, Some retain the accusative generally also by keeping the tanwin.

Vulgar MSA (<--relating to Vulgar Latin!). You'd notice it quite commonly if you watch a lot of Arabic news channels!


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## ihsaan

Thank you, Elroy and Rayloom. I enjoyed reading your answers!

@Rayloom: Would you still consider it "vulgar MSA" if the only thing one dropped was case endings? (That is, one does not do the other changes that you mentioned). Don´t you feel that dropping the case endings makes MSA sounds less formal, and would be preferred unless one is in a more formal setting (e.g. giving a speech)?


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## Mahaodeh

I definitely would consider it to be vulgar Arabic in the sense that it's not fully correct, except of course if the case endings are only dropped at the end of a sentence or the end of speech.

Personally, I think that dropping the case endings only makes MSA loose some of the benefits of the Classical language without really adding anything in return. Dropping the case endings will not really make it any less formal, only less lucid and definitely less flexible.  Maybe that's just me, but I think that since you are speaking fus7a, why not speak it properly to start with or just go with colloquial.


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## ihsaan

Well, I hope to be able to speak, write and read MSA before I move on to colloquial (although, I have studied a bit colloquial before, but decided to try to become better in MSA first). 

To be honest,  in the start I did talk to some Arabic friends of mine in (my very shaky) Arabic with case endings. Needless to say they found it hilarious, and advised me not to do so. I´ve found that even among people who use MSA quite a lot in their every day life (for example students who study at Islamic Institutions) do not include the case endings when speaking in MSA.

I have never heard anyone speak with case endings, except from some shyoukh giving doroos.


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## WadiH

I don't consider MSA minus case/mood markings to be "vulgar" at all.  In fact, that is how MSA usually sounds even in formal, educated speech (well approximately, because everybody will use at least a few case/mood endings).  In fact, people who try to speak with every possible case/mood ending sound stilted and forced in my opinion, and I don't hear it much except when someone is reading a speech off a piece of paper.

(Of course, when reading the Quran or Classical poetry, all the endings become essential)


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## rayloom

ihsaan said:


> @Rayloom: Would you still consider it "vulgar MSA" if the only thing one dropped was case endings? (That is, one does not do the other changes that you mentioned). Don´t you feel that dropping the case endings makes MSA sounds less formal, and would be preferred unless one is in a more formal setting (e.g. giving a speech)?



It's vulgar in the sense that it loses the inflection system, not vulgar in a bad sense.
And it certainly is better than appearing stiff as you talk, and better than misplacing the case endings. 
MSA with dropped case endings isn't less formal; you can make it sound less formal by using common terms, less complex structure sentences and not trying too hard!
And even if you wanted to be more formal, you can still use MSA with dropped case endings; actually many people do.

That said, some people speak MSA while retaining all the case endings, and they don't sound stiff, on the contrary, their speech sounds really fluid.


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## WadiH

It's very rare to find someone who is able to inflect every single word correctly and sound natural or fluid (except if that person is reading off a page).


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## ihsaan

@Rayloom: Yes, I know you didn´t mean "vulgar" in a bad way. I just wondered if you felt that MSA with only removing the inflection system (and without the additional changes you mentioned) would still be considered to be a more simplified version of MSA that would be common to speak (if one had to) by most Arabs, or if most Arabs would also include the other MSA-changes you mentioned.

Your point about complex sentence structures and ones choice of words is a good one.


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## rayloom

Thanks 

Yes only dropping the case endings would be considered a more simplified version of MSA.

And I think that the other changes previously mentioned that Arabs add actually happen spontaneously due to the influence of their dialects, since most of these changes do occur in most dialects.
In their effort to sound more formal, they would usually speak MSA while only dropping the case endings.

Usually you won't hear someone who fully retains the case endings unless they had received special education in Arabic or Quran, or are Classical Arabic enthusiasts!


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## ihsaan

Ok. Thank you for clarifying!


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## Serafín33

The fact that people don't pronounce them unless they're reading text shouldn't disappoint you or anything though, they're still essential for lots of things, particularly spelling and the dual and plural endings (-aani vs. -ayni, -uuna vs. iina, -in vs. -iyan vs. -in in words like قاضٍ, etc.).


Wadi Hanifa said:


> Also, words like دائماً مثلاً قطعاً رأساً مباشرةً دوماً دائماً أبداً (forgot the English term for these -- hope someone else pitches in)


"Adverbs"? 

"Accusative adverbs"? (To differentiate them from words like فقط).


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## Virgin Boy

[Moderator's Note: Merged with a previous thread]
I've heard the case endings are never read out in MSA, but what if it's follow by an article?
For example, in such a sentence: أحب اللغة العربية .
If you read it as " 'u7ibb l-lu3'a l-3arabiiya ", it'll be a bit of mouthful.
But if you read it as " 'u7ibb*u* l-lu3'a l-3arabiiya ", it's smoother but you have to know that it's read as ُأحب and not َأحب or ِأحب.
Any ideas about it?


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## إسكندراني

They are sometimes read out in MSA. The reader gets used to the different verb forms and is eventually able to figure out the correct case ending for themselves.


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## akhooha

Virgin Boy said:


> ... .
> If you read it as " 'u7ibb l-lu3'a l-3arabiiya ", it'll be a bit of mouthful.
> ...


But it would not be read as you've written it. It would include the 'alif of al-lugha: 
['u7ibb *a*l-lu3'a l-3arabiiya] --- so there you have your vowel in between the "bb" and the "l", making it just as "smooth" as ['u7ibb*u* l-lu3'a l-3arabiiya]


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## إسكندراني

In MSA I for one would just say it properly.


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## davoosh

[Moderator's Note: Merged with a previous thread]
Hello,

I have been wondering recently when a native Arabic speaker reads a text in MSA, do you vocalise everything as you read, or do you tend to drop off some of the Fus7a vocalisations and read in a more dialectal style.

For example, if you were to read the following sentence from a short story:
وخيل إليه أن صوته الحشن مفعم بعذوبة فائقة، فقال لنسفه بصوت مرتفع: أنا مطرب

Would it sound something like:
_Wa khayyal ileeh anna 9ootah il-khashin muf3am bi-3udhuuba faa2iqa, fa-qaal li-nafsihi bi-9oot murtafi3: Ana mu6rib_

Or would you read it with all the appropriate Fus7a vowels? Does this depend on whether you are reading silently or aloud? What do you think tends to be the most common way?

I find it very difficult to read at a fluent pace with all the correct vowels and I usually revert to a kind of dialect-fus7a mishmash (which probably isn't ideal for my learning, but oh well).

Thanks for your comments.


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## PlanC

Hi, and welcome to this sub-forum,
In order to pronounce adequately a text in traditional arabic or MSA [Fus7a], we need to extra format each letter in way to modulate its sonority using vocal indicators, called حركات التشكيل  Arabic diacritics, this process could be performed explicitly like illustrated, or implicitly by picturing it in our mind

وَ خُيِلَ إِلَيْهِ أَنّ صَوْتَهُ اٌلخَشِنْ مُفْعَمٌ بِعُذُوبَةٍ فَائِقَة، فَقَالَ لِنَفْسِهِ بِصَوْتٍ مُرْتَفِعٍ: أَنَا مُطْرِبْ


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## davoosh

Thanks - I understand the usage of tashkeel, but my question was more about the reality of native speakers reading texts. 

Do most native speakers read texts to themselves with all tashkeel, or do people tend to read texts in a more colloquial manner?


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## Ashraf Mahmoud

We read texts to ourselves, to our friends and to our families with out tashkeel.

We use tashkeel only during formal events and official meeting.


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## analeeh

It's not only a matter of not pronouncing tashkeel, either. Reading informally, people often treat the morphemes as their equivalents in colloquial Arabic and don't, for example, make sound distinctions they don't make in their dialect. So for a Syrian, this text might be read:

وخيل إليه أن صوته الخشن مفعم بعذوبة فائقة، فقال لنسفه بصوت مرتفع: أنا مطرب
w-khuyyil ileeh inno Sooto il-khishin muf3am bi-3uzuube faa2iqa, fa qaal la-nafso bi Soot mortafi3: ana muTrib

also e.g. qaalat ('she said') might be read qaalit, madrasatu a7mad as madrast a7mad, etc etc.

Incidentally, although -ah for -ahu is a legitimate pronunciation (in pausa, at the end of a sentence), it's very formal and I wouldn't expect to hear it in any context where people weren't pronouncing all the tashkeel. People generally - unless they're pronouncing all the tashkeel - drop the case endings even on possessed nouns and have either -hu or -o for ـهُ attached directly to the word without a case marker in between.


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## davoosh

Thanks Analeeh, I thought this might be the case. Would the majority of native speakers find it easy to read a text with all tashkeel? If giving a formal speech for example, would one have to practice reading with all correct tashkeel in place first, or would it be read naturally and smoothly on the first attempt?

I wrote -ah in 9ootah for صوته because I have more experience with Gulf dialects, which tend to pronounce ــــه (-uhu/ahu/ihi) as -ah in all cases.


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## PlanC

davoosh said:


> Do most native speakers read texts to themselves with all tashkeel, or do people tend to read texts *in a more colloquial manner*?


When you seek for Fus7a there is not another way around, the only  colloquial manner I see , is to drop some vowels at the end of certain words for the fluency sake, and make them sukun or even rendering them to the not spoken *ــه* like in the exemple you gave:
وَ خُيِلَ إِلَيْهِ أَنّ صَوْتَهُ اٌلخَشِنْ مُفْعَمٌ بِعُذُوبَةٍ فَائِقَــه، فَقَالَ لِنَفْسِهِ بِصَوْتٍ مُرْتَفِعٍ: أَنَا مُطْرِبْ
When we do really care about تشكيل is when reading Qur'an, revising arabic lessons to our children, poetry contest, narrating documentaries, historical movies, and in sustained speech ...etc.
However even for beginners this kind of mistakes:
_Wa khayyal ileeh /Wa khouiila ilayhi anna 9awtahou Al-khashin(ou) muf3amun bi-3udhuubatin faa2iqah, fa-qaala li-nafsihi bi-9awtin murtafi3in: Ana mu6rib_
are not tolerated [no harm intended]


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## davoosh

PlanC, I understand that if reading fully in Fus7a all the tashkeel would be present, especially so in certain situations.

However, as other native speakers have commented, there is a continuum between pure dialect and fus7a when reading texts to oneself or aloud; not just for fluency's sake, but presumably because not all native speakers feel comfortable, (nor do they necessarily want to), read everything in "100% tashkeel-ed" Fus7a.

As Analeeh said, it is acceptable to read the sentence in a sort of semi-Syrian fus7a:
وخيل إليه أن صوته الخشن مفعم بعذوبة فائقة، فقال لنسفه بصوت مرتفع: أنا مطرب
w-khuyyil ileeh inno Sooto il-khishin muf3am bi-3uzuube faa2iqa, fa qaal la-nafso bi Soot mortafi3: ana muTrib

Incidentally, for non-natives who have focused more on dialect than Fus7a, if we were to read the above sentence in such a pronunciation, I am sure most native speakers would more than "tolerate" it.


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## Schem

It depends. My mother taught Arabic for three decades so I grew up thinking the following was the only "proper" way to read your sentence:

Wa xuyyila ilayhi anna ṣawtuhu al xashnu muf3amun bi 3uthuubaten faa2eqah. Fa-qaala li nafsehi bi ṣauten murtafi3en: ana muṭribun!

Most speakers will half-ass it, though, or hybridize it with their dialects to varying degrees. And I'm not sure myself of the case endings in my rendering. Educated speakers, at least in KSA, will most likely only drop the case endings and read the rest as they would in MSA. And the opposite is true with examples like Analeeh's being considered those of the uneducated.

Edit: Just to clarify, this is how this would be read completely in dialect (without substituting any of the words for their more natural synonyms):

U xiyyillu en ṣautuh al xashen muf3am eb 3uthuubeh faa2eqeh. Fa gaal il nafsuh eb ṣaut mertefe3: ana meṭreb!


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## momai

Ashraf Mahmoud said:


> We read texts to ourselves, to our friends and to our families with out tashkeel.
> 
> We use tashkeel only during formal events and official meeting.


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## figgles

[Moderator's Note: Merged with a previous thread]
Hey all,

This is a question for native speakers of Arabic: When you read aloud a text *without tashkeel* text in MSA, do you add the case / verb endings as you speak? When you are reading a text *with tashkeel*, do you pronounce case endings and verb endings? Would it depend on who you are reading to (let's assume you are not graded on correctness)?

For example:

ينبح كلب في الشارع

vs

يَنبَحُ كَلبٌ في الشارِعِ


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## lena55313

[Moderator's Note: Merged with a previous thread]
Hi, when I watch TV I hear that the journalists do pronounce the ends of the verbs. But when I asked some people to read the book aloud they read without short vowels.
I've read in one source that this depends only on personal preferences. But what are the preferences of educated and literate people? Or does it just depend on a dialect each person use?
For example, how would you read this sentence:شوشو فتاة يقول لك جسمها إنها ناهزت التاسعة عشرة، ويشهد حديثها وحركاتها أنها لم تجاوز السابعة عشرة.
To my mind it sounds like this: Shushu fata, yakul*u* lak*a* gismuha, innaha nahazat attesi'ta 'shra, wa yash-had*u* hadithuha wa harakatuha annaha lam tugawiz assabiata 'shra.
Or another example in the past tense: nahad*a* lwalad mina nnaum sabahan.
This is an example from my textbook and the narrator did pronounce the last *a* of the verb nahada.


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## Mahaodeh

There are no preferences in how to read the vowels, there is only one way to read them. I think the source you read meant by preference as in "the choice to pronounce them or drop them altogether".

Technically, you should pronounce them and in some cases you can't avoid pronouncing them. However, most people avoid it as much as they can because they are not confident that they would get it right, so they take the easy way out and drop them even in reading out loud.

Depending on which TV channel you are watching, some might mostly get it right because they are either trained very well, or the text that is shown to them off-screen has the proper vowels on it. Example, most religious scholars get them right because they are trained very well in Arabic - I was told that they study the language as much as they study the religion. The Children's channel براعم always get it right because when there is a real person, he/she is reading from a screen with the proper vowels on it (I have a relative who used to work there).

Others, however, hurt my ears - and I'm not even very good at finding mistakes ! I just wish that they would drop them altogether because they get it so wrong it should be against the law .

As for the sentence you mentioned, I believe it should be:

*Shushu fatatun yakulu laka jismuha annaha nahazat attesi'ta 'shra, wa yash-hadu hadithuha wa harakatuha annaha lam tujawiz assabiata 'shra.*

*Red *= missing vowels
*Blue *= incorrect letter
*Green* = I don't know why, my instinct tells me this but I don't have a reason.

You more or less got it right, you just put a comma in the wrong place and hence fatatun became fataa because it seemed like a pause but it's actually not.


lena55313 said:


> Or another example in the past tense: nahad*a* lwalad mina nnaum sabahan.
> This is an example from my textbook and the narrator did pronounce the last *a* of the verb nahada.



Classic example of someone wanting to avoid pronouncing them. In the case of a past tense verb, there is no chance of a mistake because الفعل الماضي مبني على الفتح دائما وفعل الأمر مبني على السكون, so this comes out automatically (although I did hear some idiot on TV pronouncing فعل الأمر *افْعَلْ* with a fat7a - that's what I mean by it should be against the law!). تنوين الفتح is also almost always pronounced because even if the tanween itself is not there, the alif that comes with the tanween is there so they know to pronounce it.


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## Ghabi

lena55313 said:


> But what are the preferences of educated and literate people?


If you have the intrepidity to go through this whole thread (the question pops up regularly, as one might expect, and hence the many merges), you will see that this is an issue that divides people, whether native or non-native speakers.


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## lena55313

[Moderator's Note: The discussion concerning the sentence given in #96 has been moved to this thread]
I've already noticed this fact)))
A great thread! I'm very happy that admin moved my post in here. And I understood very well Anatoly's concern, how did he said "Please don't think I am stubborn or stupid" because in Russia we don't have any colloquial language. Everybody speaks in one language, people can make errors when they write, but when they speak - even if it is a child or not well-educated person - they always put the proper case-ends easily and naturally. And it is not only 3 cases, we have them 6.
So the question "what is the colloquial language"  is still an open one for me.
Does it mean just to drop the ends? Do educated people speak to each other in a colloquial way or do  they use the case vowels? It's very important for me to understand because I've never seen in my normal life the arab who speaks with the vowels. Weren't all of them uneducated?
And many thanks to Maha, who engouraged my determination to speak with short vowels.


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## analeeh

lena55313 said:


> So the question "what is the colloquial language"  is still an open one for me.
> Does it mean just to drop the ends? Do educated people speak to each other in a colloquial way or do  they use the case vowels? It's very important for me to understand because I've never seen in my normal life the arab who speaks with the vowels. Weren't all of them uneducated?



The thing is that nobody speaks the written language in daily life. When Arabic speakers spontaneously speak Arabic, or even sometimes give prepared talks etc, they do it in 'dialect'. 'Dialect' should not be taken (as it might in English) to mean a stigmatised/regional/uneducated form of speech - within the dialect of a given country there are lots of different ways of talking depending on region, level of education and situation. Dialects have their own grammar and structure, and none of them preserve the final short vowels or mark case. The vast majority in fact have none of the case/indefiniteness endings that the written language has, and no dialect marks nouns for case whatsoever. In the endings which are preserved (the dual and the masculine sound plural), only one ending (_-een_ and _-iin_ respectively) is used. Likewise with verbs - although some dialects have a distinct subjunctive, the distinction is typically made not through vowel endings (again no dialect preserves these on verbs either) but through prefixes.

The absence of case and mood as native features of the spoken language means that in my experience, the majority of even educated speakers of Arabic do not necessarily have good intuitions on when to use the different case and mood forms of MSA and often get it wrong especially when producing speech. At the same time, 'spoken' MSA has a number of influences from dialect, and it's quite uncommon to hear people (when they do speak MSA, on news interviews for example) using the final short vowels consistently or even marking case. 

Both for reading and for speaking MSA various different styles exist and there is disagreement between native speakers, as you can see from the rest of the thread. MSA is read in a variety of ways from the full-on prescriptive pronunciation with pausa, full use of case endings and so on all the way down to people reading it with major influences from dialect. There is no definitive answer to the question of how you 'should' read it because natives disagree on this as well.


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## lena55313

Thank you, Analeeh, for you answer. So, everybody speaks dialect and nobody speaks MSA. But it means that dialects are not so flexible as MSA and they require unflexible word order like in English language. 
Is it possible to express any sophisticated thoughts in dialect, or are the dialects intended only for everyday conversation. For example, if the professor in the university gives a lecture to students would he speak MSA or a dialect? 
Or maybe one takes the MSA word, and adapt it to the dialect? The latter variant we use in Russia just adding the case-ends to foreign words.


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## Ihsiin

It is possible to express any thought in the vernacular dialects, be it sophisticated or not.


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## analeeh

lena55313 said:


> Thank you, Analeeh, for you answer. So, everybody speaks dialect and nobody speaks MSA. But it means that dialects are not so flexible as MSA and they require unflexible word order like in English language.



I don't think this is actually true. I think (at least modern) fuSHa and dialect both have similar variations in word order, triggered by similar concerns - if anything Syrian dialect is freer in its word order. Although intuitive, I don't think there's that much to the idea that word order is necessarily freer the more unambiguous your case marking. 



> Or maybe one takes the MSA word, and adapt it to the dialect? The latter variant we use in Russia just adding the case-ends to foreign words.



Yeah, basically. It's difficult to know exactly how to categorise some of these because of the question of whether MSA and dialect should be thought of as two different languages. But if you're happy to use the term 'borrowing', then yes. With (usually small) adaptations to accent the fuSHa word is used to talk about higher-register stuff.


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## Ghabi

lena55313 said:


> For example, if the professor in the university gives a lecture to students would he speak MSA or a dialect? Or maybe one takes the MSA word, and adapt it to the dialect?


Lena, you can pursue these topics in the following threads, among others:
- MSA in everyday speech: how does it sound?
- When do you use Modern Standard Arabic?
- Transition from Colloquial to MSA
- Changing fuS7a/MSA to sound like colloquial


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## Mahaodeh

analeeh said:


> The absence of case and mood as native features of the spoken language means that in my experience, the majority of even educated speakers of Arabic do not necessarily have good intuitions on when to use the different case and mood forms of MSA and often get it wrong especially when producing speech.



Unfortunately, this is very true. An educated person, no matter how highly educated, does not necessarily have to be educated in Arabic as an area of study. Even those who were educated in Arabic as a medium of study (i.e., the language in which they study), they are so used to skipping the case and mood when studying and focusing on the content not the medium that they are no different than they would be if they studied in say English after secondary school. Exception would be people who focused on learning the proper way of MSA during their study such as those specialising in Arabic, Islam, or poets and literary writers in MSA.



analeeh said:


> There is no definitive answer to the question of how you 'should' read it because natives disagree on this as well.



I believe that there is limited disagreement on the 'proper' way to read it in terms of 'fus7a' (example. a poem of literary value); but I agree, there is plenty of disagreement on how to read it in general contexts (example: the news, a speech, interviews, reading the newspaper out loud..etc.).


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## Nahuel O Tavros

[Moderator's Note: Merged with a previous thread]
Hello, everyone. How are you? I just wanted to ask you something related to tanwiin and word endings in Arabic.
I've been told some times that in fact tanwiin is not frequently used when reading texts in Arabic. Now, guessing that tanwiin deals with word endings, I must assume that they are not pronounced when read in modern Standard Arabic, oral...
Is it always the case? In my situation, given that I'm still learning the language, I really need to pronounce the endings to make sure that the cases are well taken into account. Is it like that? What can you say about this?
THank you very much in advance,

Nahuel


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## normordm

Officially if there's a Tanwin on a letter and you don't stop reading at that word, the Tanwin is pronounced, but this means that when reading a text where there are no harakat(including Tanwin) which is the case with most texts, you have to be well aware of the cases so you could pronounce the end of the word right. This is why many people nowadays don't bother and just read most (or sometimes all) words without pronouncing the haraka(or Tanwin) on the last letter.

But as I said in correct modern standard Arabic, you pronounce the haraka (or Tanwin) if you don't stop reading at that word. Let's see some examples:
*
أَكَلْتُ تُفَّاحَةً* لَذِيذَةًً - if we stop reading at لذيذة, we won't pronounce the Tanwin on the ة, and we won't pronounce the T sound either (ta2 marboo6a) . So this would be pronounced roughly:
2kaltu tuffa7atan la4i4a
*عُصْفُورٌ فِي  *اليَدِ، *خَيرٌ مِنْ عَشَرَةٍ عَلَى *الشَجَرَةِ
Here there are two pauses, so the last haraka on اليد is not pronounced, neither is the last one on الشجرة (or the T sound at the end of that word) so the sentence is roughly pronounced:

3u9foorun fi-lyad 5airun min 3asharatin 3lashshajara

 I'm not at all used to typing Arabic letters in English, hope I helped though.


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## Nahuel O Tavros

Yes, normordm, you helped me. I couldn't find any explanation on the topic regarding how the words are divided in the pronounciation. Some Arabic speakers have told me not to think of the endings too much. But I'm sure they are wrong. Case endings are really important. They are the declination of the words in a way.


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## Ghabi

Nahuel O Tavros said:


> But I'm sure they are wrong.


You should not be so sure. The situation is more complicated than you may think. You can try to read the previous posts in this thread.


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## jack_1313

In my experience, most Arabs, when given a piece of paper to read aloud casually, will generally not read case endings. Some people read some while neglecting others. I think people are more likely to read the تنوين الفتح than other case endings because it appears on the page. If you ask the average educated Arab to read with case endings, he or she will usually be confused about what they should be in a few places on the page (bear in mind that most Arabs - even highly educated ones - cannot produce 100% accurate Fusha even in writing).

People don't read the case endings for various reasons: it's usually unnecessary, dialect influence, they don't understand grammar well enough to get the case endings right, some sentences simply cannot be read with case endings until the reader has already read them once and parsed them as a whole, and so on.

As for your situation as a learner, I think you should focus on knowing what the case endings should be because to know that, you need to understand syntax, and at the end of the day, you need to know how to parse and construct sentences.

But if you go around speaking to people with all the case endings, you're going to confuse them (or, at best, give them a laugh).


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## She'lock Holmes

Pronouncing vowel case endings is optional (maybe with the exception of _tanween_, especially with_ fatha_) in spoken-MWA (modern written Arabic). This so-called 'mistake' is too common to call it a mistake.
For me as a speech conscious person about the very existence of case ending, it sounds less awkward and better to pronounce case endings than not to; but that is pretty much it.
From my observations, only a few Arabs even know that such endings should be pronounced and even less know that vowel case endings are dropped when you stop at a word; which is why _tanween_ at the end of sentences is very common while being clearly wrong in CA.

Modern Arabic dialects use _*word*_ _*order*_ rather than _*case endings*_ to determine the meaning of words in sentences; Arabs usually carry this to MWA when they attempt to speak it and hence case endings are often dropped.

As a side note: some case endings like _nasb _are more commonly pronounced by Arabs than _kasr_.

Source: personal observations.


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