# وإذا كنا نستطيع دون كبير جهد تحقيق



## Nadia_Taliba

Can someone please check I've got the right meaning?

Shukran!

وإذا كنا نستطيع دون كبيرجهد تحقيق الأعلام الجغرافية والشخصية في بلاد العروبة فإن ذلك عسير خارجها، وخاصةً في بلاد الترك والبلغر - أي - البلغار - كانوا في ذلك العصر يسكنون شمال البحر الأسود، ولم يستقروا بعد في وطنهم المعروف باسمهم اليوم. 


If we can without great effort achieve the geographic and personal flags outside the Arab lands, then the same done outside is harder, especially in the land of turks (Turkic) and balghar ie balghaar (Bulgaria?). they were at that time living in north of the black sea and not yet settled in their country known as its current name.


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## Idris

Nadia_Taliba said:


> المعروف باسمهم


 
"...known by their name..."


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## Masjeen

Nadia_Taliba said:


> Can someone please check I've got the right meaning?
> 
> Shukran!
> 
> وإذا كنا نستطيع دون كبيرجهد تحقيق الأعلام الجغرافية والشخصية في بلاد العروبة فإن ذلك عسير خارجها، وخاصةً في بلاد الترك والبلغر - أي - البلغار - كانوا في ذلك العصر يسكنون شمال البحر الأسود، ولم يستقروا بعد في وطنهم المعروف باسمهم اليوم.
> 
> 
> If we can without great effort achieve the geographic and personal flags outside the Arab lands, then the same done outside is harder, especially in the land of turks (Turkic) and balghar ie balghaar (Bulgaria?). they were at that time living in north of the black sea and not yet settled in their country known as its current name.


 

excellent​


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## Masjeen

Idris said:


> "...known by their name..."


 You are careful observation, well done


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## Idris

أعلام is the plural of علم which also means a famous personality or figure.

Hence al-Dhahabi's سير الأعلام النبلاء


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## Nadia_Taliba

I don't know to me my translation does not seem to be at all idiomatic!

If anyone could make it sounds more so I would appreciate it very much.

Shukran!


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## AndyRoo

I'll try:


Nadia_Taliba said:


> If we can without great effort achieve investigate the geographical and personal flags characteristics outside inside the Arab lands, then the same done outside is harder, especially in the land of the Turks (Turkic) and Bulghar [translit?] i.e. Bulghaar (Bulgarians), who were at that time living in to the north of the Black Sea and had not yet settled in their country known as its current name today by their name.


 
Actually I'm not sure about تحقيق الأعلام


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## Faylasoof

Here is my attempt:

 _If we can / are able to obtain geographical and personal information in Arab lands without much effort, it is indeed difficult outside them; especially in the land of the Turks and the Bulgars* -  (Great) Bulgaria**. At the time, they*** were living north of the Black Sea and had not yet settled in their own country / lands, known today by their name. _

[*Bulgars = A semi-nomadic Turkic tribe from Central Asia – not to be confused with Bulgarians who are a Slavic speaking people.

** Great Bulgaria (البلغار ) was the land of the Bulgars that was eventually run over by the Khazars.

*** they = The Bulgars ]

_3alam _علم (s); _'3laam_أعلام (pl) = sign, mark, token, characteristic; luminary, authority. --- but here, in this contex, I would say something like " geographical and personal information" for < الأعلام الجغرافية والشخصية>.


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## djara

Nadia_Taliba said:


> Can someone please check I've got the right meaning?
> 
> Shukran!
> 
> وإذا كنا نستطيع دون كبيرجهد تحقيق الأعلام الجغرافية والشخصية في بلاد العروبة فإن ذلك عسير خارجها، وخاصةً في بلاد الترك والبلغر - أي - البلغار - كانوا في ذلك العصر يسكنون شمال البحر الأسود، ولم يستقروا بعد في وطنهم المعروف باسمهم اليوم.
> 
> 
> If we can without great effort achieve the geographic and personal flags outside the Arab lands, then the same done outside is harder, especially in the land of turks (Turkic) and balghar ie balghaar (Bulgaria?). they were at that time living in north of the black sea and not yet settled in their country known as its current name.


While it is possible to check place names and the names of people without great effort in Arab lands, doing so is much harder outside, especially in the land of the Turks and the Bulgars (i.e. Bulgarians) (who) at the time lived north of the Black Sea and had not yet settled in the land that today bears their name.


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## Idris

Faylasoof said:


> Here is my attempt:
> 
> _If we can / are able to obtain geographical and personal information in Arab lands without much effort, it is indeed difficult outside them; especially in the land of the Turks and the Bulgars* - (Great) Bulgaria**. At the time, they*** were living north of the Black Sea and had not yet settled in their own country / lands, known today by their name. _
> 
> ...
> 
> *** they = The Bulgars ]


 
How can you tell that "they" refers to the Bulgars, and not to the Turks, or even to both the Turks and the Bulgars?


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## Nadia_Taliba

shukran kulkom!!!


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## xebonyx

Idris said:


> How can you tell that "they" refers to the Bulgars, and not to the Turks, or even to both the Turks and the Bulgars?



 Because the last part of the sentence clearly indicates it, as it says:
- أي - البلغار -
_"The Bulgars, who,..."_

So it's continuing from that point on to explain that half of the story.


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## Faylasoof

xebonyx said:


> Because the last part of the sentence clearly indicates it, as it says:
> - أي - البلغار -
> _"The Bulgars, who,..."_
> 
> So it's continuing from that point on to explain that half of the story.



Exactly so, Xebonyx! Exactl so!


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## ajami

The names of the  places (geographical), and the personalities of Arabs could easily be acquired correctly unlike non-Arabs especially Turks and Bulghar OR while it's (the finding of the names) difficult for non-Arabs especially Turks and Bulghar i.e Al-Balghar. They used  to live in the north of the Black Sea in those days. After that they didn't stay in their country which is now known by their name.

*3lam* here is used for _names of places and famous people_.


JazakALLAH,
Ajami.


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## ajami

tahqeequl a3laam is the reaserch and confirmation of the names and finding them correct.


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## Prickly Pearl

You can use effortlessly for _without much effort._


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## Nadia_Taliba

jazakum Allahu khayr for the additions and all contributions!


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## Faylasoof

ajami said:


> *3lam* here is used for _names of places and famous people_.
> JazakALLAH,
> Ajami.



Perhaps! But one could easily interpret it as _geographical and personal information_ - they may not necessarily be "famous".  

One can always rework a translation. None of these are definitive. At this very moment I'm thinking of ways to rework those presented above. But I think Nadia has got a good idea what it all means so I'll leave it at that.


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## ajami

Faylasoof said:


> Perhaps! But one could easily interpret it as _geographical and personal information_ - they may not necessarily be "famous".
> 
> One can always rework a translation. None of these are definitive. At this very moment I'm thinking of ways to rework those presented above. But I think Nadia has got a good idea what it all means so I'll leave it at that.




In different languages, there are different ways and words chosen to convey a single message. Word to word translations don't always convey the intended meaning, let alone present it with the same eloquence. One thing said in Arabic will be said differently in English. Something that can be expressed by a single word in one language might need to be explained by more words in another language. Both choice and placement of words are important to consider in translations. 

There are words in the Arabic language where things are implied and you need to read between the lines and refer to the context to grasp the full meaning, and what was implied in Arabic would need to be made explicit after translating to another language. this is the case with translating the above statement into english, where it was necessary to use the word famous, which was implicit in the arabic word a3laam.

The writer was trying to convey the strength and the hold of Arabs on their inheritance, especially in two areas of knowledge: Ilm urRijaal and Ilm ulBuldaan. They took great pride in their history and took strict measures to preserve its authenticity and accuracy. Today, if someone wants to learn something about Arab history, they would find it easily and they would also be assured of its accuracy. While in other nations or peoples, there are disputes about the authenticity of historical records. 

Ilm ulBuldaan is of cities - it will be of London, Riyadh, etc. Similarly, Ilm urRijaal is not of any anonymous person, it is of important people. It is the knowledge of historical, well-known, distinguished people and their backgrounds. I used the word 'famous' because I was in a hurry. tahqeequl a3laam is the research and confirmation of the names of people and places who were well known in history. The word historical is implied, and when translating to English, it was necessary to make the distinction that the people were famous, or in other words, historical.
jazakALLAH,
ajami


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## Faylasoof

ajami said:


> In different languages, there are different ways and words chosen to convey a single message. Word to word translations don't always convey the intended meaning, .....ajami


 
Yes, I am aware of all this. In fact I've said this before myself both here and in other boards. If I were to have done a literal translation then _3alam _علم (s); _'3laam_أعلام (pl) etc. etc. would have come out different in my translation.


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