# 二位主治或以上医师双签名盖章



## lesaucisson

你好

交通故事等证明需 由二位主治或以上医师双签名盖章

Whatd does it mean ? two doctors or more ?  Thanks


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## SimonTsai

lesaucisson said:


> 故事


故事 literally means something that happened, generally meaning tales or stories.

事故 means incidents, especially something bad, such as car accidents.


lesaucisson said:


> 需


Strictly speaking, it should have been 須.

需 roughly equates to 'need' and in Mandarin is followed by a noun, as in
交通事故的證明需要至少兩位醫師的簽章。
交通事故的證明需要[blablanounblabla]​
須 roughly equates to 'shall' and in Mandarin is followed by a verb clause, as in
交通事故的證明須..... .經.... .至少兩位醫師.........簽章。
交通事故的證明須[verb (be)][blsubjectbl][verb (passive)]​


lesaucisson said:


> 由二位主治或以上医师双签名盖章


The sentence is ill written.


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## fyl

主治医师(attending physician) is a title.
It requires signatures from two doctors who are 主治医师  or above, not "two or more doctors".


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## SuperXW

fyl said:


> 主治医师(attending physician) is a title.
> It requires signatures from two doctors who are 主治医师  or above, not "two or more doctors".


I agree.
Not only requiring both of their signatures, but also their stamps.


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## SimonTsai

I am sorry for previously saying that it means 'two or more physicians'; I somehow felt lost. Now I agree with @fly and @SuperXW.

But attending physicians are almost at the top and are only under those who run hospitals, so I am wondering: Does the sentence make sense?


lesaucisson said:


> 双签名盖章


Here is a side query: Is it normal to use 雙 that way?


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## retrogradedwithwind

有一个“双签名”制度。可以百度。

不过没见到完整语境，楼主这个是什么意思，不确定。


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## fyl

I'm not familiar with doctor titles, so I've no idea if the requirement makes sense.

The 双签名盖章 is strange to me too in daily life. It could be derived from another word (invented in certain context) like retrogradedwithwind said.


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## Skatinginbc

lesaucisson said:


> 二位主治或以上医师


I guess it means "two attending or above-mentioned fellow physicians".  That is to say, it could be (1) two attendings, (2) one attending + one fellow. or (3) two fellows.
以上 as in 以上所言純屬虛構.


SimonTsai said:


> But attending physicians are almost at the top and are only under those who run hospitals, so I am wondering: Does the sentence make sense?


That interpretation does not make sense because:
主治以上医师 , 主治之上医师 
主治以上之医师 , 主治以上的医师


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## fyl

I agree that sentence is not completely natural, but it is accurate and the meaning is very clear. I don't believe you seriously think those interpretations are possible. Let's not confuse the op


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## Skatinginbc

Actually, I wasn't joking.  Since you said "it is accurate and the meaning is very clear", I did a google search on "主治以上医师" and found 129 results (after omitting similar entries), all of which are from Mainland China.  So I think it is a sentence that may be clear to people of Mainland China but rather confusing to people of Taiwan.


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## fyl

Probably.
You may get more results with 主治或以上医师. In fact, I'm not OK with the phrase if there is no 或 (or with the 或 there, I can tolerate the phrase due to its complexity).


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## SimonTsai

@Skatinginbc, your interpretation in post 8 would require further context but does make much more sense unless it is normal that such a petty document would require the signature of the head of a hospital.


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## fyl

SimonTsai said:


> But attending physicians are almost at the top and are only under those who run hospitals, so I am wondering: Does the sentence make sense?


As said I'm not familiar with the system. But I'd be surprised if this was true.
主治医师一般多大_百度知道 --- It seems 主治医师 is someone can get at 28 if 一帆风顺.
Also see 主治医师, this is just a 中级职称. What's below is 住院医师, which is a 初级职称, whose responsibility is "完成基本医疗工作，包括收治病人、记录病程、在上级医师指导下开医嘱、进行某些临床操作等，是对病人进行全程诊治的一线医生，但是需接受上级医生（主治医师及以上）的指导与监督。".
I'd say 主治医师 sounds more like a normal senior title.



Skatinginbc said:


> That is to say, it could be (1) two attendings, (2) one attending + one fellow. or (3) two fellows.
> 以上 as in 以上所言純屬虛構.


This is not possible because 主治医师 as a whole is a title. 主治 itself makes no sense in 由二位主治签字.

The 或以上, 及以上, 或更多 etc. are known structures to mean "inclusive". 由两位拥有“主治医师”或以上职称的医生签字 would be the "right" way to say this, but it's too verbose. And I'm fine with 由两位主治（或以上）医师签字， and I'm also fine with the parentheses removed. This is accurate phrasing (主治医师 are included, not necessarily those above this title).


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## SuperXW

fyl said:


> I agree that sentence is not completely natural, but it is accurate and the meaning is very clear. I don't believe you seriously think those interpretations are possible. Let's not confuse the op


I agree. Skating is just putting his linguistic legitimacy over everything else as usual, and he is not totally familiar with common languages of today's China.
Of course it may confuse Taiwanese and oversea Chinese. Such a sentence is used only in certain professional circumstance and would have its own terminology and language style, just like we feel extra hard to read legal documents in another region. OP only want to know what it really means.


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## NewAmerica

SimonTsai said:


> But attending physicians are almost at the top and are only under those who run hospitals



    Not at all.

   Attending physicians are working class in the community of physicians, at least in Mainland China.

    Above them are deputy director physicians and director physicians who are the noble class of the community, which means they have the opportunity to make themselves filthy rich.

   So, 主治或以上医师 can be expressed as "*attending or higher-level physicians*." Or make it unambiguous: "attending or deputy director or director physicians."

   Of course, the meaning is clear. Yet whether it is idiomatic, consulting native English speakers might be a good way to solve the dispute.


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## retrogradedwithwind

有些问题，简单的百度一下就知道啊。

百度还是有点用的。


医生职称级别
医生的职称分初级（医士，医师/住院医师），中级（主治医师），副高级（副主任医师），正高级（主任医师）。
初级：中专或大专毕业称医士，考得职业医师证自动晋升为医师。
中级：从事医师工作本科4年，硕士2年，专科6年以上，主治医师考试合格自动晋升主治医师。
副高级：本科，硕士毕业获得主治医师职称后5年，博士毕业中级职称3年，各项条件合格考试合格评副主任医师。
正高级：本科或硕士毕业，副高级职称5年，博士毕业副高职称3年，各项条件合格，考试合格并通过论文答辩，晋主任医师。


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## SimonTsai

@retrogradedwithwind, since I am a Taiwanese, I seldom use BaiDu.

Instead, I did a Google search in Mandarin and found the blog: 臺灣醫師階級.

*實習醫師*
醫學院學生，在住院醫師旁學習，在各科間輪調，從事抽血、換藥等基礎工作。

*住院醫師*
通過國家綜合檢定之實習醫師，選定科別，密切留心並協助主治醫師瞭解住院病患狀況；依年資分級。

*總醫師*
住院最後一年之住院醫師，除住院醫師工作，兼排值班表、議程、病床位等基礎行政事務，通過國家專科檢定後成為主治醫師。

*主治醫師*
可能在擔任住院醫師期間所在醫院或其他醫院或私人診所工作。在教學醫院，須巡視病房、執行手術、進修抑或研究、開會討論病患病況，另指導住院醫師與實習醫師；在其他醫院則總攬實習醫師與住院醫師與其本身之職務。

*主任醫師*
決定醫師之聘僱與續任與解僱與輪調、藥品之添購與棄用、醫療器材之配置等高階行政事務。在公醫院，可能由各主治醫師輪任，蓋主任醫師之任期有上限。​
The system of physicians is not the topic of this thread. And the meaning of the sentence would be 100% unambiguous only if the original poster gives us additional context; otherwise, all of the aforementioned interpretations are possible.


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## retrogradedwithwind

嗯嗯，我只是有点奇怪而已。有点冒犯别介意。@SimonTsai


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## NewAmerica

lesaucisson said:


> 交通故事等证明需 由二位主治或以上医师双签名盖章



   The Simplified Chinese points out the context is most likely Mainland China. So the rank and skill of physicians follow the medical system of PRC, rather than ROC.


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## philchinamusical

Well, first of all, I agree with @SimonTsai that the Chinese sentence given by the thread owner is incorrect apparently:

交通*故事*等证明*需 由*二位主治或以上医师双签名盖章

“故事”shall be “事故”.
“需 由” shall be “须由” (no space in between).
And I agree this sentence sounds more like written in mainland Mandarin.

So secondly, in mainland China "主任医师" and "主治医师" are both professional titles(职称) for doctors in hospitals, while the former one is senior than the latter one. You may find the details in the following link:
医生的职称是怎么算的啊？高级职称？副高？教授？副教授？主任？主任医师？主治医师？住院总？住院医？ - 知乎

Therefore, I think the sentence actually means:
Statements for traffic accident shall bear the signatures and seals of two attending or senior physicians/doctors.


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## SimonTsai

philchinamusical said:


> the former one is senior to the latter one.


We seem to all agree with this despite minor regional difference.


retrogradedwithwind said:


> 有点冒犯别介意。


No worries!


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## NewAmerica

SimonTsai said:


> philchinamusical said:
> 
> 
> 
> the former one is senior to the latter one.
> 
> 
> 
> We seem to all agree with this despite minor regional difference.
Click to expand...


       I am sorry I don't see the consistency of your ideas.



SimonTsai said:


> But attending physicians are almost at the top



   As I've pointed out, attending physicians in PRC are the working class in the community of physicians while director physicians are the noble class. Thare is a huge income gap between the two. It is not a minor regional difference.

   Please notice that I am talking about reality, not ideology.


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