# سار and صار



## IBNGABIROL

Hello. One of the possible meanings for the verb سار that I have found in Hans-Wehr, Lane and Kazimirski is "to act" in a certain way.

Therefore, for example, if a text says "هو سار نبيا", this would mean "He conducted as a prophet" or "He acted prophetically", right?

If this is true, then this meaning of سار would be quite similar to صار, "to become". Am I right?

Thank you!


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## WadiH

You cannot use it as synonym for صار (which means "became" and is one of أخوات كان, which generally serve to add a temporal dimension to a nominative clause).

If you want to use سار in the sense of acting in a particular way (literally "walking" in a particular path), you would say something like سار سيرة الأنبياء or سار في سيرة الأنبياء. In this sense, سيرة is basically a synonym for سُنّة.  It can also mean 'biography' or 'life story' (e.g. السيرة النبوية, i.e. the life of the Prophet).


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## IBNGABIROL

Wadi Hanifa said:


> You cannot use it as synonym for صار (which means "became" and is one of أخوات كان, which generally serve to add a temporal dimension to a nominative clause).


 I understand. Thank you.



Wadi Hanifa said:


> If you want to use سار in the sense of acting in a particular way (literally "walking" in a particular path), you would say something like سار سيرة الأنبياء or سار في سيرة الأنبياء. In this sense, سيرة is basically a synonym for سُنّة. It can also mean 'biography' or 'life story' (e.g. السيرة النبوية, i.e. the life of the Prophet).



Again, thanks.

I am reading a text that says "هو سار نبيا". I suppose that the literal translation would be "He conducted as a prophet". But that seems to imply that the author supposes he was not a prophet, which is not the case. Then, I thought about translating it as "he became a prophet", and this is why I started thinking about the relation between سار and صار.


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## WadiH

I've never seen سار نبياً before and it doesn't sound right to me, but I have been wrong before so let's see if anyone else thinks otherwise.


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## ayed

The verb سار is not existent to mean "becomes or acts like", unless influenced by the author's own dialect. I only know صار  mean "to become, changed from state into another"


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## IBNGABIROL

If I am not mistaken, that meaning appears in Lane, Steingass and Kazimirski (here).


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## WadiH

I had a look and didn't see any examples of سار [نبياً] but only constructions like سار سيرةً حسنة,  سار على سير الأنبياء, etc. that we mentioned.


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## Hemza

I wonder which dialects make use of سار/يسير in the sense "to walk, to go". We use it in Morocco but in most case, it's used in the imperative (سير/سيري/سيروا). I never heard it from other Maghrebis, this seems to be limited to Morocco.

 I also heard it from Emiratis and used in some Syrian/Jordanian dialect (حوراني).


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## IBNGABIROL

Wadi Hanifa said:


> I had a look and didn't see any examples of سار [نبياً] but only constructions like سار سيرةً حسنة,  سار على سير الأنبياء, etc. that we mentioned.



Yes, sorry for the misunderstanding.  I did not mean that the example with نبياً was in one of the dictionaries. That is in another text. I meant that the dictionaries say that one of the possible translations is "to behave" or "to behave like so-and-so". If this is a possible meaning, then "هو سار نبيا" may be understood as "He behaved like a prophet".


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## IBNGABIROL

Hemza said:


> I wonder which dialects make use of سار/يسير in the sense "to walk, to go". We use it in Morocco but in most case, it's used in the imperative (سير/سيري/سيروا). I never heard it from other Maghrebis, this seems to be limited to Morocco.
> 
> I also heard it from Emiratis and used in some Syrian/Jordanian dialect (حوراني).



In Yemen, maybe?


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## Ghabi

IBNGABIROL said:


> Then, I thought about translating it as "he became a prophet", and this is why I started thinking about the relation between سار and صار.


I don't know if this is relevant, but it seems that in non-classical, pre-modern Arabic (what they call "Middle Arabic") there's some overlapping between سار and صار.* Is it possible that in your case صار is actually meant although it's spelled سار?

*For example, in Ahmad ibn Fadlan's travel log one often sees صرنا إلى كذا "we came to such-and-such a place". In James E. Montgomery's edition (you can read it here) he says (page 2 of the linked text) صرنا should be سرنا ("spelling with ṣād for sīn"). In Kazimirski's _Dictionnaire_ he also seems to compare صار with سار (2. Aller, se rendre vers ...., _av._ الى; se trouver quelque part (_Voy._ سار _f.I._)).


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## WadiH

IBNGABIROL said:


> Yes, sorry for the misunderstanding.  I did not mean that the example with نبياً was in one of the dictionaries. That is in another text. I meant that the dictionaries say that one of the possible translations is "to behave" or "to behave like so-and-so". If this is a possible meaning, then "هو سار نبيا" may be understood as "He behaved like a prophet".



Yes but the examples the dictionary gives are similar to the ones I gave, سار على سيرة فلان, سار سيرة حسنة سار بسيرة الأنبياء etc., which is different from the way you would build a sentence with صار.  I mean you can say سار نبياً if you really want to, but I think most people would consider it wrong.



Ghabi said:


> *For example, in Ahmad ibn Fadlan's travel log one often sees صرنا إلى كذا "we came to such-and-such a place". In James E. Montgomery's edition (you can read it here) he says (page 2 of the linked text) صرنا should be سرنا ("spelling with ṣād for sīn"). In Kazimirski's _Dictionnaire_ he also seems to compare صار with سار (2. Aller, se rendre vers ...., _av._ الى; se trouver quelque part (_Voy._ سار _f.I._)).



Yes several dialects in the Hejaz and Al-Qassim (northern Najd) pronounce صار يصير as سار يسير but it is still distinct from سار as in "walk" or "travel".


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## IBNGABIROL

Ghabi said:


> I don't know if this is relevant, but it seems that in non-classical, pre-modern Arabic (what they call "Middle Arabic") there's some overlapping between سار and صار.* Is it possible that in your case صار is actually meant although it's spelled سار?



Yes! This is exactly what I am looking for. Do you have a source for this? I have tried to something like this in several papers (e.g. from J. Blau) but I could not. If you have a source for this I would be very thankful.



Ghabi said:


> *For example, in Ahmad ibn Fadlan's travel log one often sees صرنا إلى كذا "we came to such-and-such a place". In James E. Montgomery's edition (you can read it here) he says (page 2 of the linked text) صرنا should be سرنا ("spelling with ṣād for sīn").


Thank you, I will go through it right now.



Ghabi said:


> In Kazimirski's _Dictionnaire_ he also seems to compare صار with سار (2. Aller, se rendre vers ...., _av._ الى; se trouver quelque part (_Voy._ سار _f.I._)).


Yes, this is what I tried to say in my first post.


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## IBNGABIROL

See J. Blau (2002), _A Handbook of Early Middle Arabic_, p. 34.


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## Ghabi

IBNGABIROL said:


> Yes! This is exactly what I am looking for.


So you think this is the case (س~ص interchange) in the work you're working with? Have you noticed other similar examples in it?


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## IBNGABIROL

I do.

The text says هو سار نبيا.

It would not make sense to interpret it as "He conducted as a prophet". On the contrary, the idea that "He became a prophet" makes much more sense.

I have not found other examples of this before in the same text, but I have only read one folio of the manuscript so far. I will keep my eyes open!


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## IBNGABIROL

@Ghabi, you can find more about this in Aḥmad Ḥusayn Sharaf al-Dīn (1970), _Lahaghāt al-Yaman qadīman wa-ḥadīthan_, Maṭbaʻat al-Jabalāwī, Cairo, pp. 46-47.


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