# Country names with "The"



## moirag

Hi. I feel sure that, in the past, this country was referred to as "the Lebanon", and nowadays, watching the news, it seems to be simply "Lebanon". Is it the case that "Lebanon" without the article is more "modern", and with the article is more old-fashioned? I'm assuming that there is no political difference between the two, and that there has been no change in the original Arabic name. Which term would the native speakers and non-native speakers use? I'd say "the Lebanon", but I'm hearing "Lebanon" so much nowadays, I'm sure I'll get used to it and end up saying it myself.

<Moderator note: Hotmale's question on this subject has been moved to this thread.>


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## Ed the Editor

Hi Moirag,

I've been following Middle Eastern politics for many years in the U.S. and have never encountered the phrase "the Lebanon". Sometimes here you hear "the Sudan", but never, as far as I can recall, "the Lebanon." 

I hope this is useful.

Regards,
Ed


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## Aupick

I, too, am familiar with "the Lebanon" but have wondered if it's a figment of my imagination. Here's what Wikipedia says, though:


> In British English, the country has often traditionally been referred to with the definite article as _the Lebanon_, like _the Ukraine_ or _the Gambia_, derived from the literal translation from the Hebrew "HaLevanon" (e.g Deuteronomy 3:25)


I notice it says "in British English"...


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## moirag

Hi, Ed. Yes, interesting. I did look at wikipedia first, which says both terms exist. I haven't followed Middle Eastern politics too closely, but in any case have lived abroad most of my adult life, so have heard the news in German or Spanish. I'm probably way out of date here, which is , partly what I'd like to know.


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## river

Since _the Lebanon_ was once a French dependency, its article might reflect French name usage. . .  but  . . .in a sample of five different yearbooks, encyclopedias and UN publications _Lebanon_ never appears with the article. . . and . . .in our Web search, of the total occurrences of _Lebanon_, only 1% contain the article. (Vaxjo Universitet)


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## foxfirebrand

When I was learning French 40-some-odd years ago, the country was called _Le Liban._  Even in English that part of the Middle East was sometimes referred to as _The Levant._
_ .

_


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## panjandrum

Check this link:
articles before countries .

As Aupick pointed out, there is a site called www.the-lebanon.com, which does not use the article


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## foxfirebrand

And now that I think of it, post-Versailles-Treaty coinage and philately employs the name _Liban,_ also without the article.  The money I spent while traveling in that region in 1961-62 didn't include any Latin-alphabet text.

As long as we're adding words like Mumbai and Beijing to the English lexicon-- what do the Lebanese call the place?  Can they agree on a term?
.


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## moirag

Interesting links...I also say the Ukraine, incidentally, hadn't noticed anyone removing its article till now. Am I really out on a limb here? Obviously the North Americans have never used the article, but haven't the Irish, either? What about the Brits...do any of you still use it? When did the usage change? I'd never been aware of the change till this recent crisis...though I have read and heard some news in English, the Lebanon can't have been mentioned much/I'm unobservant, and likewise with the Ukraine.


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## Kelly B

Lebanon has been featured on some channels of the US news almost non-stop this week, without the article. I've seen it called "the Lebanon" but I've thought of that as literary, without being able to remember exactly why.


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## DavyBCN

As a very mature native British English speaker I think I have always used Lebanon and the Lebanon. The same also applies to other countries where I sometimes use the and sometimes not - Ukraine, Gambia, Congo. my guesses (educated but still  guesses!) are that at some time in the past we used a longer term for these countries, such as The Republic of Congo, or that these countries became named after a major feature, such as the Gambia river, and so usage varied. It does seem to a British thing.


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## jimreilly

As an American who is older, though not necessarily more mature than the "very mature" DavyBCN, I can report that some people here still say "the Ukraine", one hears both "Congo" and "the Congo", but I think one usually enounters "Gambia" and "Lebanon" without the "the". 

I'm wondering outloud now--one usually hears "the" with (geographical or other) regions rather than legally defined states (the North, the Sahara, the Andes, etc); some regions might be independent states at some points in their history and not at others. In such a case the regional-status "the" might persist....?


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## foxfirebrand

I used, and only ever heard, "The Ukraine" until the USSR disbanded and certain SSRs emerged (on TV news) with new names.

The Ukraine => Ukraine
Moldavia => Moldova
Byelorussia => Belarus

Have I missed any? And what's with that little chunk of what used to be East Prussia-- there's nobody there but Russians, and it seems to be part of that country, though separated by intervening sovereign States. The Polish part of East Prussia is still full of ethnic Germans-- where did the rest of them go? And what's that little piece of "leftover" territory _called_ now?
.


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## A90Six

moirag said:
			
		

> Hi. I feel sure that, in the past, this country was referred to as "the Lebanon", and nowadays, watching the news, it seems to be simply "Lebanon". Is it the case that "Lebanon" without the article is more "modern", and with the article is more old-fashioned? I'm assuming that there is no political difference between the two, and that there has been no change in the original Arabic name. Which term would the native speakers and non-native speakers use? I'd say "the Lebanon", but I'm hearing "Lebanon" so much nowadays, I'm sure I'll get used to it and end up saying it myself.


The Lebanon may also be more familiar to us UK natives (with greying locks) owing to the hit single by The Human League - The Lebanon, 1984.


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## .   1

jimreilly said:
			
		

> I'm wondering outloud now--one usually hears "the" with (geographical or other) regions rather than legally defined states (the North, the Sahara, the Andes, etc); some regions might be independent states at some points in their history and not at others. In such a case the regional-status "the" might persist....?


You may be on to something.
We refer to an area that is a loose assembly of virtually peacfully coexisting countries as The Balkans and it seems to me that this could be a contraction of The Baltic States or The Baltic Countries.

It seems to me that all of the areas mentioned with an optional The are areas of great political turmoil and have been in the process of changing names and boundaries so we tacked on a The to cover the general area.

.,,


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## DavyBCN

. said:
			
		

> You may be on to something.
> We refer to an area that is a loose assembly of virtually peacfully coexisting countries as The Balkans and it seems to me that this could be a contraction of The Baltic States or The Baltic Countries.
> 
> It seems to me that all of the areas mentioned with an optional The are areas of great political turmoil and have been in the process of changing names and boundaries so we tacked on a The to cover the general area.
> 
> .,,


 
Your explanation seems very logical. Or maybe there just ain't any sensible reason - it's just that different people say different things - life really is can be that simple sometimes. 

And to answer another contributor - at 58 I still think I'm just a child! But here in Spain it seems that you become a "maduro" at 45.


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## Nurzik

the Netherlands

the Ukraine

the Lebanon

any other ones? 

thanks, 
Nurzik


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## Strider

The Czech republic

And any country with 'United' in front...

The UK, The USA, The United Arab Emirates, etc.


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## majlo

The United States
The Czech Republic

I do not think you use _the _before Lebanon.


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## Nurzik

majlo said:
			
		

> I do not think you use _the _before Lebanon.


 
That's what I thought before reading Blair's speech on BBC today. Surprisingly, he uses "the" before "Lebanon".


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## Insider

Nurzik,

I'm not sure if the article "the" is using before noun Ukraine. Of course, if yours Ukrain means Ukraine. 

The USA, The UK, The Czech Republic, The United Arab Emirates - here, article is using for sure.


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## majlo

Insider said:
			
		

> Nurzik,
> 
> I'm not sure if the article "the" is using before noun Ukraine. Of course, if yours Ukrain means Ukraine.



_The _can be used when talking about Ukraine.


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## virr2

majlo said:
			
		

> The United States
> The Czech Republic
> 
> I do not think you use _the _before Lebanon.



You can. You have two forms: "Lebanon" and "the Lebanon". The same is with *Ukraine*: - "The Ukraine" and "Ukraine".


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## panjandrum

[Mildly irritated remarks from Moderator]
I have just added today's thread on this topic to last week's.
It would help a great deal if forer@s would search the forum to see if their question had already been addressed.
[/End of mildly irritated remarks from Moderator]


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## papillon

foxfirebrand said:


> Have I missed any? And what's with that little chunk of what used to be East Prussia-- there's nobody there but Russians, and it seems to be part of that country, though separated by intervening sovereign States ... what's that little piece of "leftover" territory _called_ now?
> .


I belive you are referring to what is now Kaliningrad, a Russian enclave which stands in the place that once was the East Prussian city of  *Königsberg.* All the Germans were expelled from there after WWII. From what I know, not the most exciting place to live...


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## Brioche

foxfirebrand said:


> Have I missed any? And what's with that little chunk of what used to be East Prussia-- there's nobody there but Russians, and it seems to be part of that country, though separated by intervening sovereign States. The Polish part of East Prussia is still full of ethnic Germans-- where did the rest of them go? And what's that little piece of "leftover" territory _called_ now?
> .


 
That piece of territory is _The Kaliningrad Oblast._
Калинингра́дская о́бласть_ = Kaliningradskaya Oblast_ in Russian_._


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## foxfirebrand

Brioche said:


> That piece of territory is _The Kaliningrad Oblast._
> Калинингра́дская о́бласть_ = Kaliningradskaya Oblast_ in Russian_._


Thanks, Brioche-- you too, Papillon.  I knew the name of the city, and could almost have ventured a guess.  But they've got Okrugs and autonymous republics and a real mare's nest of legal categories.

I stumbled on a site once that detailed the proceedings of the Tatar autonymous region, or whatever the designation was.  The panel that sets policy and law and settles intranational disputes is a bilateral face-off more resembling a treaty negotiations group than a governing body.  It was as if they couldn't define what authority, if any, the central government even had.

Talk about a timebomb ready to go off.  Hey!  These nation-like subdivisions of Russia seem to have definite articles, at least in English.  So we're not that far off-topic here.
.


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## Victoria32

I've just thought o





moirag said:


> Interesting links...I also say the Ukraine, incidentally, hadn't noticed anyone removing its article till now. Am I really out on a limb here? Obviously the North Americans have never used the article, but haven't the Irish, either? What about the Brits...do any of you still use it? When did the usage change? I'd never been aware of the change till this recent crisis...though I have read and heard some news in English, the Lebanon can't have been mentioned much/I'm unobservant, and likewise with the Ukraine.


I've just thought of five "the" countries: Vatican, Lebanon, Congo, Ukraine and Gambia. Here it is always referred to with the article, one of the few remaining BE usages in NZ (now turning rapidly to AE)...


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## papillon

Brioche said:


> That piece of territory is _The Kaliningrad Oblast._
> Калинингра́дская о́бласть_ = Kaliningradskaya Oblast_ in Russian_._


That's true, it is an oblast'. But there is no reason not to translate the word,  oblast' is just a district. So, Kaliningrad district, perhaps? For example, I am from the Kharkov Oblast, but I wouldn't use the word _oblast_ in any English language documents.

BTW, any consensus on _<the>_ Ukraine? I went through the posts, but didn't arrive at any conclusion. Just curious as to what I should be calling my patria. Ukrainians themselves, of course, are the last people to know, since Slavic languages (with few exceptions) don't even have articles.


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## foxfirebrand

Well, I'm one AE speaker who learned to call it "the Ukraine."  I noticed that some "former SSRs" used a slightly different name after 1990, so I have followed their lead-- Belarus for "Byelorussia," Moldova for "Moldavia" and of course "Ukraine" without the definite article.  I do suspect the "bel" in Belarus might still be pronounced "byel," but that's not how the ignorant news-bunnies on my TV say it, so what's the use?

So what's the difference between an Oblast and an Okrug?  Would we have to appoint a committee or a commission or a composium to sort that one out?  
.


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## elroy

"The Lebanon" souds _*very* _strange to me!

Maybe it's because I'm bilingual in American English _and_ Arabic.  In Arabic, some country names have an article, and others do not (it seems to be kind of unpredictable) - and "Lebanon" does _*not*_.  This is the first time I have ever heard it with an article.  "The Levant" is different because that _is_ a region that consists of several countries (and it has an article in Arabic as well), but Lebanon is one country and not a region!  

"The Sudan" makes sense because the Arabic name has an article (although I would say "Sudan").    

Of course, it's certainly not the case that every country name that has an article in Arabic has one in English.  However, using one when there isn't one in Arabic (at least for Arab countries) sounds very strange to my ears.


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## mariposita

Another one:

  The Argentine

Most style guides that I follow require that the article be removed.


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## nelliot53

In Spanish we have:

El Líbano
Los Estados Unidos
Los Países Bajos
El Perú, El Brazil, La Argentina, El Paraguay, etc.


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## foxfirebrand

elroy said:


> "The Sudan" makes sense because the Arabic name has an article (although I would say "Sudan").



I would say "Sudan" too, but in AE you do often hear it with the definite article.

Have The Philippines been mentioned?  That one kinda falls under the category of island groups, but it's a large one, and a nation.
.


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## Porteño

This is proving to be quite interesting. I can recall using The Lebanon but I'm not sure what would be used today. Of course all those countries with plural names carry the definite article, e.g., The United States, The USSR, The UAE, The Netherlands, The Philippines, The Seychelles, The Maldives (I know that the last three are also groups of islands) etc., but there are the other curiosities such as The UK, The Ukraine, The Congo, The Sudan and those whose name begins with Republic (The People's Republic of China). I was interested to hear about Gambia which I personally have never heard used with 'the'. Then there was the old South Africa known as The Union of South Africa. In a similar vein Canada was known as The Dominion of Canada in my schooldays (now we're harking back a bit!), and Australia as the Dominion of Australia.

mariposita The Argentine, unless followed by the word Republic, is not the official name of the country, but is commonly used and always with the article. If not it is Argentina. To the anglo community here the people are known as Argentines and not Argentineans or the somewhat derogatory term of 'Argies', but then that's another story and would make a good thread to discuss 'popular names for diffrent nationalities.


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## elroy

foxfirebrand said:


> Have The Philippines been mentioned? That one kinda falls under the category of island groups, but it's a large one, and a nation.
> .


 Isn't there always a "the" when it's plural?  

(the Philippines, the Netherlands, the Maldives, the Bahamas,...)


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## .   1

elroy said:


> Isn't there always a "the" when it's plural?
> 
> (the Philippines, the Netherlands, the Maldives, the Bahamas,...)


Indonesia seems to be a singular collection of islands.

.,,


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## elroy

. said:


> Indonesia seems to be a singular collection of islands.
> 
> .,,


 I meant that there's always a "the" when the actual name of the country is plural.


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## foxfirebrand

elroy said:


> Isn't there always a "the" when it's plural?


What about Honduras?

There are a couple that seem to be plural but might not be, most notably Tangiers.
.


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## Porteño

Hi Foxfirebrand,

As far as I know Honduras is singular and Tangiers is a city in Morocco.


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## jimreilly

I hear "The Honduras" fairly often.


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## elroy

Porteño said:


> As far as I know Honduras is singular and Tangiers is a city in Morocco.


 Agreed on both counts.  "Honduras" may be plural in another language, but in English it's not.  Otherwise the "s" would be pronounced like a "z," which it's not.


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## Porteño

Hi! jimreilly, that's certainly a new one to me. I've never heard it in my life, which hasn't been exactly short, if you know what I mean.


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## .   1

elroy said:


> I meant that there's always a "the" when the actual name of the country is plural.


Sorry.
I misunderstood your post .
Yes you do make a valid point.

.,,


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## foxfirebrand

elroy said:


> Agreed on both counts.  "Honduras" may be plural in another language, but in English it's not.  Otherwise the "s" would be pronounced like a "z," which it's not.


You're starting to parse this a little fine, Elroy.  When we drop the "las" and call a certain city "Vegas," we _keep the unvoiced /s/_, as we tend to do in words of Spanish origin.  "Honduras" is exactly analogous-- and to say it's "not plural" in English is a little moot.  It isn't anything in English but the name of a country where we dropped the definite article, like Peru.  And it's plural-- just google "las Honduras."

Tangiers was not always a city in Morocco.  It was an independent country within _Spanish_ Morocco, and existed for the sake of _sub rosa_ marketeering and intelligence exchange-- a little like Andorra.

In the case of this one we've added an _s_ in English and _do_ voice it.  
.


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## JamesM

I've never heard "The Lebanon", but I have heard "The Levant", which refers to that entire area between Turkey and Egypt, as far as I know.  It's not specific to Lebanon, but I wondered if you had gotten the two terms confused.


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## mariposita

> mariposita The Argentine, unless followed by the word Republic, is not the official name of the country, but is commonly used and always with the article. If not it is Argentina. To the anglo community here the people are known as Argentines and not Argentineans or the somewhat derogatory term of 'Argies', but then that's another story and would make a good thread to discuss 'popular names for different nationalities.


 
Thanks for the information on this. I've only heard "The Argentine" a few times, generally from people over 80. I think I also heard it recently in the movie Gilda (with Rita Hayworth), though I could be mistaken.

I had no idea *Argie* was somewhat derogatory. The only time I've heard it used is by Argentine(an) friends when referring to themselves... Sorry to go off-topic, but I'm curious... which is preferred: *Argentine* or *Argentinean*? I've always said the latter, but I think the former may be more common.


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## Porteño

Hi! mariposita,

I can not speak for everybody, of course, but the members of the quite large Anglo-Argentine community generally prefer to be called *Argentines*. I have no idea, and I suppose most have never even thought about it, what the 'native' Argentines prefer. You really surprise me when you say that your Argentine friends refer to them as '*argies*'. For me this has a similar connotation to '*frogs*' for the French, '*spics*' (in the USA) for hispanics, '*pommies*' for the English (in Australia) or '*limeys*' in the USA. As far as I'm aware the name first appeared during the South Atlantic conflict of 1982 and was probably coined by the 'yellow' press in the UK.


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## mariposita

Porteño said:


> Hi! mariposita,
> 
> I can not speak for everybody, of course, but the members of the quite large Anglo-Argentine community generally prefer to be called *Argentines*. I have no idea, and I suppose most have never even thought about it, what the 'native' Argentines prefer. You really surprise me when you say that your Argentine friends refer to them as '*argies*'. For me this has a similar connotation to '*frogs*' for the French, '*spics*' (in the USA) for hispanics, '*pommies*' for the English (in Australia) or '*limeys*' in the USA. As far as I'm aware the name first appeared during the South Atlantic conflict of 1982 and was probably coined by the 'yellow' press in the UK.


 
Ah, well they are all expat Argentine(an)s, so--as you must know from personal experience--we expats tend to be a rather odd and non-representative lot...


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## Porteño

Yes, I guess we are!


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## Hotmale

Hello.
Do we put "the" before such countries as "the Netherlands", "the Bahamas", "the Philipines" because they're in a plural form, or there is another reason for that?

Thank you


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## elroy

Hotmale said:


> Hello.
> Do we put "the" before such countries as "the Netherlands", "the Bahamas", "the Philipines" because they're in a plural form, or there is another reason for that?
> 
> Thank you


 I would say it's because they're in the plural.  I don't think there are any plural country names that aren't preceded by "the."


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## Hotmale

elroy said:


> I would say it's because they're in the plural.  I don't think there are any plural country names that aren't preceded by "the."



Thank you a lot.


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## Æsop

Panjandrum asked that further comments/questions on this topic be added to this thread rather than to the new one.

The answer to the question about the piece of Russia sandwiched between Poland and Lithuania is that it is the Kaliningrad Oblast of the Russian Federation, Kaliningrad being what the U.S.S.R. renamed Königsberg, the prinicipal city of the area.

An obsolete usage of a country name with "The" is "The Argentine," which is what the British used to call Argentina.

The Ukraine doesn't have an article in its native language, because the East Slavic languages don't have articles.  "Krai" in Russian means "edge" or a "border region" (like the obsolete English "march"), "u kraina" = "on the border."  This area was once the borderland between Russia and the Turkish domains on the northern coast of the Black Sea.

In general, any country name that incorporates a common noun, such as "State," "Kingdom," "Federation," etc., requires a definite article when it is being used _as a noun.  _Thus, Medvedev is "president of _the_ Russian Federation" just as Bush is, as of this writing, "president of _the_ United States."  Saying "president of Russian Federation" or "president of United States" sounds foreign, as if the speaker's native language did not have articles (a common mistake for those whose mother tongue is the articleless Russian).  But:  "We asked Russian Federation officials to comment on ... "  "It is not clear what United States policy will be on ..."  where the country names are being used as adjectives.  There's a post in the new thread about this.


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## Jacobtm

Why do you suppose that one can live in Manhattan, Queens or Brooklyn, but not in Bronx?

Could it be that the Bronx, like the Congo, was named after a river?


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## ewie

*Moderator note:* Hello, Jacob.  I've merged your thread with a previous one on the (more or less) same subject


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