# Pakistani Panjabi: Urdu speakers of Indian origin



## lcfatima

I have usually heard of Pakistani "pure" Urdu speakers of Indian origin either referred to in English as "Urdu speaking," or sometimes as _Hindustani,_ and usually in writing as _muhajir_. But there is a word that I have heard Tet Punjabi types use, I am not sure exactly what they are saying, it sounds like _maToaaray_. Does anyone recognize this word? What is its literal meaning, and am I interpreting its implied meaning of "Indian origin pure Urdu speaker" correctly? Does the word itself any negative connotation?


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## BP.

maTarwa/y(plur), and I guess its derogatory.


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## Illuminatus

How is it written?

Could you give uses?


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## Faylasoof

I have'nt heard this before! But I've been out of the sub-continent for decades.
   Curious to the know etymology. Has it got anything to do with maTar مَٹَر   (peas)
  If so, then it could look like this:  مَٹَروا . 

  Wonder what the connection is. 

BTW, I do love  _chatpataa maTar_ (spicy maTar) served with _puri_!


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## panjabigator

Is the term <mohajir> pejorative at all?


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## BP.

No _mahaajir_ can't be pejorative at all, there are religious reasons for this. _maTarway_ is however spoken in a way that I felt it indeed was. I've heard all manners of people calling Urduphones _maTarway_, the first time ever being by a group Urduphones themselves. It was yesterday that I learnt from ICF that this is a Punjabi term, but maybe it isn't.


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## Qureshpor

^ I have personally never heard of this word "maTarvaa" before used by Punjabis in Punjab for mother-tongue Urdu speakers. "muhaajir" was used commonly in our part of the Punjab but that was for Punjabi speakers who had migrated from East Punjab. "Hindustani"* was the term used for Urdu speakers and I do not remember any derogatory overtones at all. On the contrary, we looked up to them as speakers of real, proper Urdu. 

* I might be wrong but I do not think the term "Hindustani" should be simply thought of as people of "Indian" origins because prior to 1947 everyone was Hindustani. I believe this has to do with "North Indian"..

rubaahaaN gird aamadand az har kinaar
ham az Hind-o-Sind va az Bang-o-Bihaar

​Isma'il Merathi 1844-1917

The foxes got together from every corner of the land
From north India and Sind as well as Bengal and Bihar


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## Dib

Qureshpor said:


> I might be wrong but I do not think the term "Hindustani" should be simply thought of as people of "Indian" origins because prior to 1947 everyone was Hindustani. I believe this has to do with "North Indian"..



In Bengal too, Hindust*h*ani traditionally meant Hindi/Urdu speakers (from North India).


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## Sheikh_14

The fact that no one here was able to help you here is evidence to the fact that they are truly innocently inclined. Matar here is indeed spelt like peas but has nothing to do with peas rather in Punjabi Urdu maTar maTar means to talk garrulously thence maTarwa is one who talks in such a manner. Any conclusions you want to draw are at your own risk and behest.

BP give you a solid start up nevertheless, could someone kindly write in Nastaliiq or Nasx with regards to how matarwa and its plural MaTarwey is spelt?


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## mundiya

This article defines the meaning of "maTarwaa" as "loser" and lists a few other words used for muhaajir: https://saadiahaq.wordpress.com/201...t-discrimination-against-my-mohajir-identity/


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## HZKhan

As a 'pure' Urdu-speaker from Karachi, I categorically reject 'Indian-originated' or 'Hindustani' as my ethnic identity marker. I have nothing to do with India at all. My 'pathan' great-grandfather cheefully came to Pakistan after leaving behind India for good, and it will be a insult to his memory if I allow someone to call me an Indian. As a matter of fact, I don't even like the forced-upon 'muhaajir' identity tag for myself. I'm happily contented with being called a Pakistani or a Karachiite.

Anyway, I won't say more as I think it will only lead to heated political discussion which is strictly, and rightly so, a big no-no in this forum.


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## tarkshya

So what is the preferred self designation of Muhajir/Hindustani/Urdu-speakers people for themselves? Marginalized groups the world over choose their identity markers themselves. For example, Dalits in India prefer to call themselves Dalits instead of the tags given to them by others like Harijans or Scheduled Castes. Black of America identifies themselves as "African Americans". Similarly, their must be some self designation of Muhajir/Hindustani/Urdu-speakers too. Surely it can't be Pakistani or Karachiite because these are geography based terms. Also, everybody in Pakistan is a Pakistani. How can it be an identity marker of a subset of Pakistani people.



mundiya said:


> This article defines the meaning of "maTarwaa" as "loser" and lists a few other words used for muhaajir: https://saadiahaq.wordpress.com/201...t-discrimination-against-my-mohajir-identity/



Very thought provoking, pathos inducing article. I didn't know that Muhajirs were known as Kalay-Kalootay, among other pejorative adjectives. I thought they looked same as any other average Pakistani. But then, what do I know..

And finally, coming to the original question, a google search quickly reveals the etymology of the original word. Apparently, the word is "mootarwa", and the word "moot" in most Indian languages means "urine". No wonder the word is considered highly offensive. No offense meant folks. I am just trying to dig out the etymology of words.


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## desi4life

The article mentions the term *hindustora* for muhaajirs.  What language is *hindustora* from?  Punjabi? Urdu?


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## mundiya

tarkshya said:


> And finally, coming to the original question, a google search quickly reveals the etymology of the original word. Apparently, the word is "mootarwa", and the word "moot" in most Indian languages means "urine". No wonder the word is considered highly offensive. No offense meant folks. I am just trying to dig out the etymology of words.



As indicated above, the word is pronounced with a retroflex T and a short initial "a", so it is unlikely to be connected "muut" (urine).


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## marrish

^ I intended yesterday to point this obviousness out. I am curious where on Earth (on Goolge  tarkshya found this out of the blue etymology.

As to the word, I heard it from Urduphones amongst themselves though. I can't exclude that some Punjabis use it however I have no first hand exprerience. My personal feeling is that this word has to make with a sort of mocking word referring to the manner of speech of so called immigrants from what is now India.

_*hindustoraa_ doesn't exist, again, it is retroflex *hindu(u)stoRaa* (or *hindu(u)stauRa*): it may be both Punjabi and Urdu. It's literary occurrence can be found in the famous short story by Saadat Hasan Manto "Tobah Tek Singh". A character who is a Sikh and is confined in the lunatic asylum of Lahore in the late 1940's, comments on the "lunatic exchange" between India and Pakistan.

اسی طرح ایک سکھ پاگل نے ایک دوسرے سکھ پاگل سے پوچا _" سردار جی ہمیں *ہندوستان* کیوں بھیجا جا رہا ہے ہمیں تو وہاں کی بولی نہیں آتی "

-دوسرا مسکرایا _ " مجھے تو *ہندوستوڑوں* کی بولی آتی ہے --- *ہندوستانی* بڑے شیطانی آکڑ آکڑ پھرتے ہیں "​
_isii tarH eik sikh paagal ne ek duusre sikh paagal se puuchhaa-: "sardaar jii, hameN *hinduustaan* kyuuN bhejaa jaa rahaa hae hameN to wahaaN kii bolii nahiiN aatii"._

_duusraa muskuraayaa-: "mujhe to *hinduustoRoN* kii bolii aatii hae: *hinduustaanii* baRe shaitaanii aakaR aakaR phirte haiN"._

It is most safe to presume that two Sikhs in Lahore conversed in Punjabi but the phrase from _hinduustaanii_...onwards is supposed to be in the language of Hinduustaan.

It is not directly related to _hinduu_. It is what in Urdu grammar is called _*tasGhiir bi_l_taHqiir*_ that is "pejorative diminutive" and derives from hindu*st*aanii (cf. the quote from Manto).

On purpose I said it can be both languages because the modificator -Raa, -oRaa, -auRaa is used in both. Check out _*hiijRaa, me'oRaa*_. (hathoRaa etc. also are there but they are not pejorative).

Also I found the word _*maTarwaa*_ in Bhojpuri, Maithili and Awadhi. It must be a pea-plant. Please don't forget that these racial slurs don't make any sense as a wide array of ethnicities emigrated to Pakistan. They had one thing in common: risking their lives, having left behind all they possessed, houses, mansions and other belongings, having made a journey of thousands of miles in constant fear and under shocking circumstances, they arrived in their new homeland starved, sick and tired to death. Some of these racial slurs have origin in their state at arrival.

This thread is titled Pakistani Punjabi but I don't think it is right. These words are more used by the Sindhis or Urduphones themselves than by the Punjabis. hinduustaanii is often used by the Pashtoon community. I feel the thread title (Pakistani Punjabi) is against the reality and muddles things up.

uupar se girii bhinDii - mar ga'e saare sindhii
uupar se girii chaabii - mar ga'e sab panjaabii

[EDIT: I just realised Sheikh_14 pointed to the etymology of maTarwaa in the same spirit as I did but he was the first one!].


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## tarkshya

marrish said:


> ^ I intended yesterday to point this obviousness out. I am curious where on Earth (on Goolge  tarkshya found this out of the blue etymology.
> ...



A google search on word "muttarwa" returns some results with references to pee. I won't push my theory though. I don't specialize in ethnic insults, and I could well be wrong here.


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## marrish

I'll check it out. In meanwhile pea and pee MAY also be confusing so you can be forgiven.


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