# 台灣人把j/q/x唸成z/c/s的現象叫什麼?(非星馬)



## KLAUSED

我有發現有些主播或記者在台灣的新聞節目上會把j/q/x唸成z/c/s。我知道星馬那邊的華人會這樣唸但在台灣除了在電視上偶爾會聽到幾乎沒有遇到會唸這樣的人。我之前在線上跟台灣人聊天的時候問過這個問題，他說他們(把j/q/x唸成z/c/s的台灣人)可能覺得這樣唸有種sophiscated的感覺也分享wikipedia的連結給我，我後來忘記這個現象叫什麼。


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## azhong

我是台灣人， 見識淺薄了些，沒聽過此一現象，居然還特地為之命名？我們等等看其他人的回覆。

（「說話有口音」是正常的啦。「少小離家老大回，鄉音無改鬢毛衰」。

地球村的時代，很多外國人在使用你我的母語。不要說發音，乃至於文法不正確也都應該被諒解吧。能溝通就行，重點是能相互瞭解，要言之有物。）


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## retrogradedwithwind

不知道你说的是不是“腭化”？我也不懂，可搜一下。还有一个尖团音的概念。


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## KLAUSED

azhong said:


> 我是台灣人， 見識淺薄了些，沒聽過此一現象，居然還特地為之命名？我們等等看其他人的回覆。
> 
> （「說話有口音」是正常的啦。「少小離家老大回，鄉音無改鬢毛衰」。
> 
> 地球村的時代，很多外國人在使用你我的母語。不要說發音，乃至於文法不正確也都應該被諒解吧。能溝通就行，重點是能相互瞭解，要言之有物。）


這裡好像不能貼影片連結(英文規則寫若要貼影片連結需先取得允許，否則一律刪除，但不知道要向誰申請)。
到youtube搜尋"找到了！潭子滷味攤命案 槍手陳屍山區【最新快訊】"會有台視新聞的報導。她的口音很明顯。
我在台灣生活好幾年幾乎沒聽過一般人帶這個口音講話，只有聽過新聞台的一些主播、記者用這個口音。
這個口音應該是非標準的，而新聞台的主播和記者(尤其是主播)應該有受過發音訓練，我很好奇想知道為什麼他們沒被矯正。
​


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## KLAUSED

retrogradedwithwind said:


> 不知道你说的是不是“腭化”？我也不懂，可搜一下。还有一个尖团音的概念。



我用"女 口音"兩個詞google了一下找到以女國音為題的wikipedia文章。這就是曾經跟我聊天的台灣人分享給我的連結。wikipedia有提到你說的尖團音。

原來是北京某一群人的口音。不知道為什麼台灣的一些主播、記者會用這個口音，也沒有被矯正。

不管是大陸或台灣，現代的中文不是已經尖團合流了嗎?
在大陸也會聽到新聞台的人帶這個口音念稿嗎?


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## retrogradedwithwind

尖团音合流的问题我不太懂，但网络上相关讨论非常多，可以搜索一下看看。可以去知乎搜。


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## skating-in-bc

KLAUSED said:


> (把j/q/x唸成z/c/s的台灣人)可能覺得這樣唸有種sophiscated的感覺。


我的感覺相反, 覺得很土, 一點兒也不 sophisticated. 我用尖音 "西" (as in 裴洛西 _Pelo__s__i_;  西班牙 _S__pain_) vs. 團音 "希" (as in 吾爾開希 _Örke__sh_; 希臘 _Hellas_) 來測試, 看了有關 "裴洛西會晤吾爾開希" 的視頻, 發現台灣記者 (e.g., 20220803 公視晚間新聞--裴洛西訪國家人權博物館) 不分"西""希", 均讀作 /si/ (台腔), 或均讀作 /ɕi/ (標準國語), 不像「老國音」那樣尖團對立。台灣主播這樣讀, 是近一二十年來的事, 顯然是本土化, 受台語干擾 (linguistic interference)。台灣人用冠冕堂皇的"保留老國音"為藉口, 為台灣腔 (e.g., "西" 讀 /si/) 合理化, 形成風尚, 導致當前台灣國語亂七八糟的 hypercorrecton (e.g., "希" 錯讀 /si/) or confusion.


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## KLAUSED

skating-in-bc said:


> 我的感覺相反, 覺得很土, 一點兒也不 sophisticated. 我用尖音 "西" (as in 裴洛西 _Pelo__s__i_;  西班牙 _S__pain_) vs. 團音 "希" (as in 吾爾開希 _Örke__sh_; 希臘 _Hellas_) 來測試, 看了有關 "裴洛西會晤吾爾開希" 的視頻, 發現台灣記者 (e.g., 20220803 公視晚間新聞--裴洛西訪國家人權博物館) 不分"西""希", 均讀作 /si/ (台腔), 或均讀作 /ɕi/ (標準國語), 不像「老國音」那樣尖團對立。台灣主播這樣讀, 是近一二十年來的事, 顯然是本土化, 受台語干擾 (linguistic interference)。台灣人用冠冕堂皇的"保留老國音"為藉口, 為台灣腔 (e.g., "西" 讀 /si/) 合理化, 形成風尚, 導致當前台灣國語亂七八糟的 hypercorrecton (e.g., "希" 錯讀 /si/) or confusion.


尖音 and 團音 having merged so completely (or 尖音 having been lost, to be more accurate) in 台灣華語 and 普通話, I don't think people know which characters were pronounced as 尖音 in the past, so it's no surprise those anchors and reporters with 女國音 are unable to distinguish between the two. The 女國音 of the reporter in your video sounds a lot subtler and I may not have noticed he had 女國音 if you hadn't pointed it out. Maybe I do come across people in real life with such subtle 女國音 but I just fail to notice it since it's so subtle.

Is this really 台灣腔? I've only met/heard 台語 speakers who pronounce 是 as /si/ instead of /xi/ on very rare occasions. The official pronunciation of 是 in 台語 also sounds more like 團音 rather than 尖音. 

Also, the Wikipedia entry on 女國音 describes the phenomenon as something observed in 北京女性.


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## skating-in-bc

KLAUSED said:


> Is this really 台灣腔? I've only met/heard 台語 speakers who pronounce 是 as /si/ instead of /xi/ on very rare occasions.


It is not that rare.  For example, the interviewee 李明哲 (who was neither the anchor nor the reporter) in the video I mentioned also pronounced 西 as /si/.


KLAUSED said:


> The official pronunciation of 是 in 台語 also sounds more like 團音 rather than 尖音.


西: 標準國語 /ɕi/, 台語 /sai/
習: 標準國語 /ɕi/, 台語 /si̍p/
心: 標準國語 /ɕin/, 台語 /sim/
新: 標準國語 /ɕin/, 台語 /sin/
Mandarin /ɕ/ corresponds to Taiwanese /s/.
Taiwanese /si/ is realized as [sʲi] (palatalized /s/) or [ɕi] (alveolo-palatal), depending on the dialects.  The difference between [sʲi] and [ɕi] is very subtle.


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## KLAUSED

skating-in-bc said:


> Taiwanese /si/ is realized as [sʲi] (palatalized /s/) or [ɕi] (alveolo-palatal), depending on the dialects.  The difference between [sʲi] and [ɕi] is very subtle.



I am assuming [sʲi] would sound like [ɕi] with a hint of [si]. The reporter in your video seems to be using [sʲi] where he should be using [ɕi]. It's probably because of the similarity of [sʲi] to [ɕi] that the reporter doesn't come off as obvious as the anchor in my video who uses [si]. Seeing that 李明哲 has no problem pronouncing 感謝 with a [ɕi] in the same sentence, I'm inclined to think 李明哲 is just pronouncing Pelosi's name as it should be in English and not as 裴洛西.

Now as to whether the phenomenon of replacing [ɕi] with [si] like the anchor does in my video is a result of 台灣華語 having undergone the influence of 台語, I am not convinced it is, as
a) Taiwanese /si/ is not realized as [si] but [ɕi], and
b) this phenomenon known as 女國音 was first reported in the 1920s in Beijing.

With regards to using [sʲi] in place of [ɕi], I think this youtuber (這個島上全是“神人”，卻困在這裡上千年直到滅絕 | 老高與小茉 Mr & Mrs Gao) from the mainland also does this when pronouncing 小.


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## skating-in-bc

KLAUSED said:


> Seeing that 李明哲 has no problem pronouncing 感謝 with a [ɕi] in the same sentence, I'm inclined to think 李明哲 is just pronouncing Pelosi's name as it should be in English and not as 裴洛西.


He was not pronouncing the name in English.  The English word _Pelosi_ does not have tones that 李明哲 had in his speech, and its vowel would have been /-ou-/ instead of 洛 (/-uo-/).


KLAUSED said:


> b) this phenomenon known as 女國音 was first reported in the 1920s in Beijing.


I believe the dentalization (尖音化) of alveolo-palatal sibilants (團音) in Taiwan is independent of the 女國音 (劈柴派讀音) in Beijing and the striking similarity between them is the result of convergent evolution. In other words, I believe the Taiwanese accent is a spontaneous creation from within (e.g., 台灣客家語群), rather than an imitation of a dialect from outside (e.g., Beijing). The retreat of the government of the Republic of China to Taiwan in 1949 and the Mandarin Promotion Movement in Taiwan (推行國語運動) from 1946 to 1989 did not contribute to the spread of 女國音. During the 1990s--that is, after the Hakka Language Restoration Movement (還我客家話運動) in 1988, the dentalization gradually gained popularity, perhaps influenced (through social learning) by news anchors and reporters from the Hakka region (e.g., 桃竹苗及宜蘭花東) who are more prone to the accent. For example, both 台視主播鄔凱雯 (桃園市人) and 台視新聞主播張寧 (宜蘭縣人) exhibit a tendency of dentalization. So strong is the accent among Hakka speakers that 鄧碩敦 wrote a thesis titled "_Sociolinguistic Analysis of the Phonetic Variation of Mandarin /ɕ/ by Hakka Speakers_" (客語母語者使用國音/ɕ/的狀況:社會語言學分析) to discuss the phenomenon.


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## KLAUSED

skating-in-bc said:


> He was not pronouncing the name in English, which does not contain tones and would have been /-ou-/ instead of 洛 (/-uo-/).





skating-in-bc said:


> It is not that rare.  For example, the interviewee 李明哲 (who was neither the anchor nor the reporter) in the video I mentioned also pronounced 西 as /si/.



Listening to it again a couple times at x0.5, yes, I agree that he was saying 裴洛西 and not Pelosi, and no, I don't think he pronounces it as [si] but rather as [ɕi] or [sʲi]. I also don't see why he would use [si] when he pronounces 關係 in the same sentence with a [ɕi], 



skating-in-bc said:


> I believe the Taiwanese accent is a spontaneous creation from within a speech community (e.g., 客家人) in Taiwan,





skating-in-bc said:


> Not until the 1990s--that is, after the Hakka Language Restoration Movement (還我客家話運動) in 1988--did the dentalization phenomenon gradually gain popularity. As I stated previously, "台灣主播這樣讀, 是近一二十年來的事" (see #7). News anchors and reporters from the Hakka region (e.g., 桃竹苗及宜蘭花東) are more prone to the accent. For example, both 台視主播鄔凱雯 (桃園市人) and 台視新聞主播張寧 (宜蘭縣人) exhibit a strong tendency of dentalization. So strong is the accent among Hakka speakers that 鄧碩敦 wrote a thesis titled "_Sociolinguistic Analysis of the Phonetic Variation of Mandarin /ɕ/ by Hakka Speakers_" (客語母語者使用國音/ɕ/的狀況:社會語言學分析) to discuss the phenomenon.


There are some Taiwanese Hakka dialects that have the sound [ɕi] (pronunciation of 先 in different Hakka dialects), and Hakka being a minority language in Taiwan, I'm surprised it would have such a strong impact on 華語. I guess I would have to move to/live in cities with a large population of Hakkas to find out if people there have a tendency for dentalization.

In any case, this accent is considered non-standard, and I still can't wrap my head around the fact that anchors and reporters with this accent go uncorrected. I'm all for dialects and accents but this really stands out and I can't imagine hearing this level of aberration from what is considered standard on the news in Japan.


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## skating-in-bc

skating-in-bc said:


> 李明哲 (who was neither the anchor nor the reporter) in the video I mentioned also pronounced 西 as /si/...The difference between [sʲi] and [ɕi] is very subtle.





KLAUSED said:


> I don't think he pronounces it as [si] but rather as [ɕi] or *[sʲi]*.


Wikipedea--Standard Chinese Phonology: "_The alveolo-palatal consonants (pinyin j, q, x) are standardly pronounced [t͡ɕ, t͡ɕʰ, ɕ]. Some speakers realize them as palatalized dentals [t͡sʲ], [t͡sʰʲ], [sʲ]; this is claimed to be especially common among children and women,  although officially it is regarded as substandard and as a feature specific to the Beijing dialect._" ==> It is a description of 女國音 in Mainland China.

Since you equated Taiwan's dentalization with 女國音 (e.g., [sʲ] in place of [ɕ]), I naturally would assume that your /s/ (broad phonetic transcription) would also include [sʲ] (narrow phonetic transcription).  Please note that I said 李明哲 pronounced 西 as /si/ (broad phonetic transcription), by which I meant [sʲi] (narrow phonetic transcription).  As I mentioned, the difference between [sʲi] and [ɕi] is very subtle, with the former ongoing "_fronting_" (i.e, changing the place of articulation to the front, from the supposed_ alveolo-palatal _to the palatalized dental).  李明哲's 西 clearly showed "fronting", and that's the "common" (or "_not that rare_") Taiwanese accent I was talking about. If you are only interested in [t͡s, t͡sʰ, s] in place of [t͡ɕ, t͡ɕʰ, ɕ] without palatalization, then perhaps you are discussing something UNLIKE 女國音.


KLAUSED said:


> I also don't see why he would use [si] when he pronounces 關係 in the same sentence with a [ɕi]


It just illustrates that [sʲi] and [ɕi] are free allophones in the Taiwanese accent, whereas [si] as an allophone of [ɕi] is more associated with certain speech communities or social groups (e.g., 裝腔作調的主播).


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## KLAUSED

skating-in-bc said:


> Wikipedea--Standard Chinese Phonology: "_The alveolo-palatal consonants (pinyin j, q, x) are standardly pronounced [t͡ɕ, t͡ɕʰ, ɕ]. Some speakers realize them as palatalized dentals [t͡sʲ], [t͡sʰʲ], [sʲ]; this is claimed to be especially common among children and women,  although officially it is regarded as substandard and as a feature specific to the Beijing dialect._" ==> It is a description of 女國音 in Mainland China.


If this is what 女國音 is then this is not the phenomenon I'm talking about.


skating-in-bc said:


> If you are only interested in [t͡s, t͡sʰ, s] in place of [t͡ɕ, t͡ɕʰ, ɕ] without palatalization


Yes, this is what I wanted to discuss.


skating-in-bc said:


> It just illustrates that [sʲi] and [ɕi] are free allophones in the Taiwanese accent, whereas [si] as an allophone of [ɕi] is more associated with certain speech communities or social groups (e.g., 裝腔作調的主播).


Any plausible explanation as to why members of a social group whose profession requires that they speak standard 華語 (i.e. 主播) would use [si] in place of [ɕi] to 拿腔作調, when the accent has its roots in communities such as 台灣客家語群, which is a minority community?


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## Messquito

Interesting discussion.
I have to say as a Taiwanese watching that YouTube clip, I had to really focus to hear the difference. I know I pronounce x correctly, with the mid portion of my tongue, but I guess since x is always followed by an /i/ and s never, (the i in xi is different from the i in si, for anyone confused) I have never felt the need to distinguish between them, unlike the merger of s and sh or n and ng, which bug me a lot 😂. Schools never taught us about x/s either I guess because of that. There is no need to distinguish between x and s because they are never in the same context.

I want to say maybe they omit the distinction between x/s in their training program because as far as comprehension is concerned, it doesn’t really add a lot to it? As viewers, we will never confuse a word with a mispronounced x as something else. That’s what s/sh and n/ng would do.


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## KLAUSED

Messquito said:


> I have to say as a Taiwanese watching that YouTube clip, I had to really focus to hear the difference.


Perhaps it's not so obvious in that particular clip. I've seen anchors/reporters with a more pronounced shift from /x/ to /s/.

The reason I put out this question was this:


KLAUSED said:


> 我知道星馬那邊的華人會這樣唸但在台灣除了在電視上偶爾會聽到幾乎沒有遇到會唸這樣的人。



It's possibly the influence of Hakka as skating-in-bc says, but I'm still perplexed as to


KLAUSED said:


> why members of a social group whose profession requires that they speak standard 華語 (i.e. 主播) would use [si] in place of [ɕi] to 拿腔作調, when the accent has its roots in communities such as 台灣客家語群, which is a minority community?


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