# na łopatkach



## guniang

Hi everyone!
Jak przetłumaczyć ten idiom? Zdanie (tytuł) brzmi: Europa na łopatkach.

My try: Europe on its last knees.

Dzięki!


----------



## LilianaB

This is not an idiom: this is playing with an idiom. The author created it itself. The idiom is _na kolanach_, which means to beg, the way people pray to God on their knees. You have to think how to convey the same image in Polish. The is another idiom involved połorzyc kogoś na łopatki. This is playing with both of them, in fact.


----------



## guniang

I fact, this is also an idiom, here's the definition:  
rozłożyć na łopatki synonimy: obalić, powalić, rozłożyć na łopatki, rzucić na kolana, ściąć z nóg, zadać klęskę, obezwładnić, unieruchomić, unieszkodliwić source: http://megaslownik.pl/slownik/synonimy_antonimy/19012,roz%C5%82o%C5%BCy%C4%87+na+%C5%82opatki


----------



## LilianaB

Na łopatki yes, but not na łopatkach. This is something unique the author has created.


----------



## guniang

'położyć na łopatki'
, yes but 'leżeć na łopatkach', in my opinion. anyway, is my translation correct?


----------



## dreamlike

yet another Liliana's authoritative carry-on. It's perfectly fine.


----------



## guniang

Thanks very much


----------



## LilianaB

Stop posting personal comments, Dreamlike. Behave as you would be behaving on the English Only forum. Learn some impartiality in the end. This is a linguistic forum not a Zoo. There is no such an idiom in Polish. It is playing with words.


----------



## dreamlike

Do you have any proof to underpin your feeble theory? It's not personal, I'm pointing out that you're wrong. If something or someone is "na łopatkach", it or he/she, for that matter, was vanquished (for instance in football match)... it's idiomatic.


----------



## LilianaB

I am not taking about your theory, Dreamlike, I am talking about personal comments. You may not agree with me, but then you should just say I do not agree, I think this is wrong, I think this is a wrong interpretation, but do make personal comments. 
There is such an expression in boxing: I do not think you could really call it an idiom. The idiom is połozyc na łopatki.


----------



## dreamlike

No hard feelings Liliana. Guniang expressions was derived from the idiom, therefore I think it deserves to be labelled as 'idiomatic', and you dismissed it as unidiomatic. I'm just proving you wrong, is there anything wrong about it?


----------



## guniang

Stop arguing, please. my friend dropped me some nice translations: 'on its last legs' or 'on its knees' or 'pinned to the ground', 'overpowered', 'paralysed'.
So, my try was only partially correct.

Thanks for your involvement - both of you


----------



## LilianaB

Europe is down. Another knock-out for Europe.


----------



## guniang

Might be, thank you for your suggestion!


----------



## majlo

I doubt any sane person would attack you personally, Liliana. You know, this is on-line, we don't even know each other. Then again, that doesn't change the fact that you have to be proved wrong every time you mislead non-native speakers of Polish. "Na łopatkach" _is _an idiomatic expression in Polish. Period.


----------



## guniang

In fact, I am a native speaker of Polish


----------



## LilianaB

I was referring to personal comments. I do not know what your ideas about native and non-native are. My Polish is at least as good as Czeslaw Milosz's, who was a Polish-Lithuanian poet and a very learned man. Regardless, you are not supposed to make any personal comments only comments related to phrases and expressions. You are welcome to say that my phrases are wrong, but this should be just related to the phrases. Do you have any reliable dictionary reference which would say that  na łopatkach is a fixed phrase?


----------



## guniang

I think that u are right, Liliana. I'm sorry that my thread provoked such a discomfort for you. Again, thanks for your willingness to help, everyone can be mistaken. We all should be more tolerant towards each other's mistakes.

Pozdrowienia


----------



## LilianaB

Never mind, I just shake it off like a dog, any offenses.( I am not sure if this is an idiom or not. I just like it.)


----------



## majlo

And I am not sure if you're serious here or not. One moment you're saying one thing, minutes later you come across like you've never said anything.


----------



## dreamlike

Yeah, one can grow weary of this, to be quite blunt.


----------



## kknd

to be fair with all this: recorded idioms are _leżeć na (obu) łopatkach_ or _położyć/powalić kogoś na (obie) łopatki_; we have also _rzucić kogoś na kolana_ and _paść/padać/rzucać się przed kimś na kolana/na twarz_ and even _na klęczkach/kolanach_. what happened here is probably some kind of blending… nonetheless _być na łopatkach_ (mixing with _być na kolanach_?) seems to be quite often used in contemporary polish—probably because it comes from sport where such phrases seem plausible.

p.s. i found also _być położonym/rozłożonym na (obu) łopatkach_ but who knows… it'd really help if someone could check dictionary…


----------



## voovoo

Personally I am not keen of the short version _na łopatkach_, instead of _rozłożyć na łopadki , _cause it just does not sound good to me. It is like shortening idioms in general - for instance: saying _it's not my cup _ instead _it's not my cup of tea. _Something is missing - does not sound right, so if it does not sound right in the original, better not translate.


----------



## majlo

Does "_Don't count your chickens._" sound off to you yoo? What about "_If wishes were horses."?_

If the expression in question here were not an idiomatic expression, it would mean that Europe is a person and has scapulas. As we all know that's not the case. If we exclude the literal meaning, what are we left with?


----------



## kknd

that's often used and, i think, accepted in spoken language (maybe some polish: _gdyby kózka nie skakała…_); i'm not sure of it if we are to be formal…  as a sidenote: you might be interested in quite ultimate form of such shortenings—check chinese chengyu and japanese yojijukugo (but those are somewhat set phrases).


----------



## dreamlike

@voovoo - it has little to do with shortening the idiom, it's just some expression derived from the idiom "rozłożyć kogoś na łopatki", and as much as it might not deserve to be called idiom itself, it's certainly idiomatic expression. Note:

Polacy rozłożyli na łopatki Słowaków w swoim drugim meczu Mistrzostw Europy -> Słowacy na łopatkach.

That being said, there's no need nitpick over this.


----------



## LilianaB

In my opinion this is figurative use of  language, not a real idiom.


----------



## dreamlike

Whatever the case may be, it's hardly of any importance...


----------



## Thomas1

The normative version of the idiom in question is ‘leżeć na obie łopatki’. Here ‘na obie łopatki’ is used in the accusative as an adverbial of manner. ‘Na’ is used in this fuction quite often, for instance: [być] na styk, [wyschnąć] na pieprz, [zszyć] na zakładkę, etc. Here the question answers this part is ‘jak?’. As you can see, many Polish native speakers use ‘leżeć na (obu) łopatkach’, which is very frequent today. 'na (obu) łopatkach’ is perceived rather as an adverbial of place just like ‘na łóżku’ used in the wording ‘leżeć na łóżku’ and is accordingly used with the locative. The question that answers this forumulation is ‘gdzie?’.


----------

