# aber / sondern



## geneva2013

Hello. 
I met two sentences including _aber_ and _sondern_ and get confused:
Das ist nicht sicher, aber das ist wahrscheinlich.
Lisa ist nicht schön, sondern gewöhnlich.
My questions:
Since _sicher_ entails _wahrscheinlich_, _schön_ entails _gewöhnlich_, it seems these two sentences have the same logic relation. Can _aber _and _sondern_ remplace each other here?
Can we say _Das ist nicht sicher, sondern wahrscheinlich _to represent correction of an existing expression (_Das ist sicher_) instead of contrast.
Can we say_ Lisa ist nicht schön, aber sie ist gewöhnlich _to represent contrast?


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## berndf

_Schön_ does not entail _gewöhnlich_. And in the given context the two even contrast.


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## geneva2013

berndf said:


> _Schön_ does not entail _gewöhnlich_. And in the given context the two even contrast.


OK thank you very mush.
But can we say _Das ist nicht sicher, sondern wahrscheinlich?_


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## berndf

Yes, both are possible. _Das ist nicht sicher, sondern wahrscheinlich_ describes _sicher _and _wahrscheinlich _as contrasting categories and _Das ist nicht sicher, aber wahrscheinlich_ describes _wahrscheinlich_ as similar to _sicher _but less strict. It depends on the context which perspective is more appropriate.

You would especially use the latter interpretation if the first half is meant as a conceding introduction. You could make this clearer by adding some "flavouring" adverbs: _Das ist zwar nicht sicher, aber doch wahrscheinlich._


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## geneva2013

berndf said:


> Yes, both are possible. _Das ist nicht sicher, sondern wahrscheinlich_ describes _sicher _and _wahrscheinlich _as contrasting categories and _Das ist nicht sicher, aber wahrscheinlich_ describes _wahrscheinlich_ as similar to _sicher _but less strict. It depends on the context which perspective is more appropriate.
> 
> You would especially use the latter interpretation if the first half is meant as a conceding introduction. You could make this clearer by adding some "flavouring" adverbs: _Das ist zwar nicht sicher, aber doch wahrscheinlich._



Danke schön!


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## Kajjo

berndf said:


> _Das ist nicht sicher, sondern wahrscheinlich_ describes _sicher _and _wahrscheinlich _as contrasting categories and _Das ist nicht sicher, aber wahrscheinlich_ describes _wahrscheinlich_ as similar to _sicher _but less strict. It depends on the context which perspective is more appropriate.


Agreed. Very good explanation in this case.

However, let me add another focus to distinguish "aber" and "sondern". Usually "aber" introduces a contrast by _different _ideas or concepts, i.e. one property is missing, but _another _property is present. In contrast, "sondern" usually introduces a contrast to the _same_ idea or concept and contradicts the first statement.

different ideas with "aber":

_(1) Die Tasche ist nicht schön, aber praktisch.
(2) Seine Stimme ist nicht sehr kräftig, aber sanft und angenehm.

(3) Er ist sehr fähig, aber leider auch sehr egoistisch.
(4) Sie ist wunderschön, aber unfassbar dumm.
(5) Das Kind ist musikalisch, aber leider mangelt es ihm an Geduld._

same idea with "sondern":

_(6) Sein Gesicht ist nicht schön, sondern hässlich.
(7) Das Essen war nicht heiß, sondern kalt.
(8) Das ist kein Hund, sondern ein Wolf.
(9) Es mangelt nicht nur an Geld, sondern auch an guten Ideen._

Please note that "sondern" can be only used with a negative first statement including "nicht" or "kein". Thus, examples (3)-(5) exclude the usage of "sondern" anyway. 

Example (2) is difficult to figure as "contrast of same idea" and thus cannot be replaced by "sondern". 

Example (1) might be phrased with "sondern" under certain circumstances, e.g. figuring "reason to use" as same idea. It depends on context what the speaker wants to express. This is the same as Berndf described above with "sicher > wahrscheinlich".


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## bearded

berndf said:


> _Das ist nicht sicher, aber wahrscheinlich_ describes _wahrscheinlich_ as similar to _sicher _but less strict.


Or maybe one could express the same meaning by using _sondern nur:  Das ist nicht (ganz) sicher, sondern nur wahrscheinlich. _Am I mistaken?


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## Kajjo

bearded said:


> Or maybe one could express the same meaning by using _sondern nur: Das ist nicht (ganz) sicher, sondern nur wahrscheinlich. _Am I mistaken?


Hm, not really the same meaning. Of course, both "aber" and "sondern" are idiomatic here, but with a slightly different connotation. I agree that "nur" softens the difference a little bit.

As I explained in #6 the use of "sondern" focuses on one idea with some sort of opposition. With degrees of certainty you surely can see "certain ... probably" as the same idea and "sondern" works fine.


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## berndf

bearded said:


> Or maybe one could express the same meaning by using _sondern nur:  Das ist nicht (ganz) sicher, sondern nur wahrscheinlich. _Am I mistaken?


Phrasing it like this emphasises that it is _not_ certain and it is constrastive. Adding _ganz_ to the sentence would pull the message in two conflicting directions and sounds very odd indeed.


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## geneva2013

Thanks for your concret explanation, it is very helpful!


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## Abandoned

geneva2013 said:


> Thanks for your concret explanation, it is very helpful!


According to page 12 of my ( very old ) textbook ' Advanced German Course ' ( Longman ) , ' aber ' means ' however ' : ' Es ist nicht kalt , aber ich friere ' . The word ' sondern ' means ' but on the contrary ' : ' Sie ist nicht mehr jung , sondern alt ' . In addition   ' sondern ' sometimes occurs with ' nicht nur ' , so the overall meaning is ' not only but also ' :  ' Er ist nicht nur reich , sondern steinreich ' . Though Longman has not said so here , the word ' auch ' may immediately follow ' sondern ' when ' nicht nur ' is used .


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## Schlabberlatz

Abandoned said:


> ' Er ist nicht nur reich , sondern steinreich '


I don’t think that that is a good example. You could say:
"Er ist nicht reich, sondern steinreich" (you can say that if you want to mislead your listeners for a short moment – someone who is "steinreich" is of course also "reich").
"Er ist nicht nur reich, sondern auch intelligent" or "… gut aussehend" etc.


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## Abandoned

Schlabberlatz said:


> I don’t think that that is a good example. You could say:
> "Er ist nicht reich, sondern steinreich" (you can say that if you want to mislead your listeners for a short moment – someone who is "steinreich" is of course also "reich").
> "Er ist nicht nur reich, sondern auch intelligent" or "… gut aussehend" etc.


' Er ist nicht reich , sondern steinrich ' is , I would agree with you , misleading , and , I would suggest ,  even illogical ,  because the meanings of ' reich ' and ' steinreich ' overlap as you point out ,  whereas their meanings would need to be SEPARATE  for that construction to make perfect sense . If we might  return to what I copied from the book , namely  ' Er ist nicht nur reich , sondern steinreich ' , that might yet be acceptable if we read it as meaning ' not MERELY rich but enormously rich ' , i.e. the quality in question ( of being rich ) is possessed not just to the first degree but to a much higher one .


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## Schlabberlatz

Abandoned said:


> If we might return to what I copied from the book , namely ' Er ist nicht nur reich , sondern steinreich ' , that might yet be acceptable if we read it as meaning ' not MERELY rich but enormously rich ' , i.e. the quality in question ( of being rich ) is possessed not just to the first degree but to a much higher one .


I still don’t like it. After "nicht nur", one expects "sondern *auch*".
You can say:
"Er ist reich, ja sogar steinreich."


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## Abandoned

Yes , if I were composing my own text I would certainly put ' auch ' after ' sondern ' . That's what I learnt at school . However ,  I should say that if you look up ' not only ... , but . . ' in the English-German half of Cassell's dictionary ( within the entry for ' only ' ) , the word ' auch ' appears in parenthesis : ' nicht nur ..., sondern (auch ) . So perhaps the example I copied contains ' auch ' after all , albeit only implicitly , as the speaker/writer chose to omit it .


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## Schlabberlatz

Abandoned said:


> So perhaps the example I copied contains ' auch ' after all , albeit only implicitly , as the speaker/writer chose to omit it .


I like "Er ist nicht nur reich, sondern auch steinreich" even less than the version without "auch". "Er ist nicht nur reich, sondern steinreich" is probably an acceptable sentence, but IMO the word that is implied is "sogar", the intended meaning being "Er ist nicht nur reich, sondern sogar steinreich".


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## manfy

Schlabberlatz said:


> I like "Er ist nicht nur reich, sondern auch steinreich" even less than the version without "auch".


Easy fix: "Er ist nicht einfach nur reich, sondern steinreich." -> "He's not just rich, but bloody rich."
(AmE would probably use the f-word instead of the b-word. )


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## Abandoned

Yes , one could do that , thank you .


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## Schlabberlatz

manfy said:


> "Er ist nicht einfach nur reich, sondern steinreich."


Yes, that’s probably the best solution.


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## geneva2013

berndf said:


> Phrasing it like this emphasises that it is _not_ certain and it is constrastive. Adding _ganz_ to the sentence would pull the message in two conflicting directions and sounds very odd indeed.





Kajjo said:


> Hm, not really the same meaning. Of course, both "aber" and "sondern" are idiomatic here, but with a slightly different connotation. I agree that "nur" softens the difference a little bit.
> 
> As I explained in #6 the use of "sondern" focuses on one idea with some sort of opposition. With degrees of certainty you surely can see "certain ... probably" as the same idea and "sondern" works fine.


Hello. Someone told me that  _Das ist nicht sicher, _*aber *_wahrscheinlich _sounds incomplete, it should be _aber wahrscheinlich something or wahrscheinlich, dass...   _Is that correct? _Das ist nicht sicher, _*aber *_wahrscheinlich_ is not a natural sentence?
If there should be something following _wahrscheinlich, _are the two following sentences correct?
_Das ist nicht sicher,*aber *wahrscheinlich ein Zufall.  
Das ist nicht sicher,*sondern *wahrscheinlich ein Zufall._

*Moderator note: Posts merged.*


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## berndf

geneva2013 said:


> Someone told me that _Das ist nicht sicher, _*aber *_wahrscheinlich _sounds incomplete, it should be _aber wahrscheinlich something or wahrscheinlich, dass... _Is that correct?


_Das ist nicht sicher, _*aber *_wahrscheinlich._
is OK. Pedants may tell you to repeat the copula in the second clause, i.e.: _Das ist nicht sicher, aber *es ist*_ _wahrscheinlich._


geneva2013 said:


> _Das ist nicht sicher,* aber *wahrscheinlich ein Zufall._


This doesn't make sense to me. You would have to say
_Das ist nicht sicher, *sondern *[es ist] wahrscheinlich ein Zufall._

Please note that
_Das ist nicht sicher, _*aber *_[es ist] wahrscheinlich._
and
_Das ist nicht sicher(,) *sondern *[es ist] wahrscheinlich ein Zufall._
express different things: The first sentence is a statement about the degree of certainty and the second sentence about the nature of something.


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## geneva2013

berndf said:


> _Das ist nicht sicher, _*aber *_wahrscheinlich._
> is OK. Pedants may tell you to repeat the copula in the second clause, i.e.: _Das ist nicht sicher, aber *es ist*_ _wahrscheinlich._
> 
> This doesn't make sense to me. You would have to say
> _Das ist nicht sicher, *sondern *[es ist] wahrscheinlich ein Zufall._
> 
> Please note that
> _Das ist nicht sicher, _*aber *_[es ist] wahrscheinlich._
> and
> _Das ist nicht sicher, *sondern *[es ist] wahrscheinlich ein Zufall._
> express different things: The first sentence is a statement about the degree of certainty and the second sentence about the nature of something.


Thank you very much!!! I must have mistaken what he means about "incomplete". So, _Das ist nicht sicher, *sondern* wahrscheinlich _is also correct, not incomplete, right?


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## berndf

geneva2013 said:


> So, _Das ist nicht sicher, *sondern* wahrscheinlich _is also correct, not incomplete, right?


That would also be possible. In this particular case (where degrees of the same thing are contrasted) _aber_ and _sondern_ are both possible and more or less interchangeable (for the "more or less": see #4 above).


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## geneva2013

berndf said:


> That would also be possible. In this particular case (where degrees of the same thing are contrasted) _aber_ and _sondern_ are both possible and more or less interchangeable.


Yes. This particular case is exactly what I look for, because I am doing a comparative research about amber/sodern, mais, but, danshi/ershi in Chinese, so I need some examples in German, which sometimes do not seem "natural" to everyone. But thanks a lot for your responses, they are very helpful!!


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## berndf

One rule might help you: _Sondern_ is a conjunction that can join phrases and clauses while _aber_ can only join clauses. That is why I said pedants might object to the verb missing in the second clause in _Das ist nicht sicher, _*aber *_wahrscheinlich._ This sentence is only grammatical if you assume the repeated verb (_ist_) is simply omitted.


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## manfy

geneva2013 said:


> So, _Das ist nicht sicher, *sondern* wahrscheinlich _is also correct, not incomplete, right?


Maybe your friend was missing the emphasizer particles in your sentences? I also thought that "something" is missing when I first saw your forms.

I'd be inclined to say (based on generic context):
_Das ist nicht sicher, _*sondern *_*nur *wahrscheinlich.
(functionally this expression lowers the certainty level of whatever 'das' refers to from 'sicher' to 'nur wahrscheinlich' and therefore it has a negative vibe)_
or
_Das ist nicht sicher, *aber doch* wahrscheinlich.
(this expression basically says the same thing but by first saying 'not sure' and then using a concessive 'but it's at least likely', it conveys a bit more of a positive attitude)_


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## geneva2013

manfy said:


> Maybe your friend was missing the emphasizer particles in your sentences? I also thought that "something" is missing when I first saw your forms.
> 
> I'd be inclined to say (based on generic context):
> _Das ist nicht sicher, _*sondern *_*nur *wahrscheinlich.
> (functionally this expression lowers the certainty level of whatever 'das' refers to from 'sicher' to 'nur wahrscheinlich' and therefore it has a negative vibe)_
> or
> _Das ist nicht sicher, *aber doch* wahrscheinlich.
> (this expression basically says the same thing but by first saying 'not sure' and then using a concessive 'but it's at least likely', it conveys a bit more of a positive attitude)_


Yes, the particles make the sentences much more natural


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## geneva2013

berndf said:


> One rule might help you: _Sondern_ is a conjunction that can join phrases and clauses while _aber_ can only join clauses. That is why I said pedants might object to the verb missing in the second clause in _Das ist nicht sicher, _*aber *_wahrscheinlich._ This sentence is only grammatical if you assume the repeated verb (_ist_) is simply omitted.


But "Sarah ist nicht schön, *sondern *sie ist intelligent" is incorrect, is it?
An article I referred to says sondern refutes "directly" one part in the existing sentence. Like "Die Banken sind nicht geOffnet, sondern nur die Wechselstuben."


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## berndf

geneva2013 said:


> But "Sarah ist nicht schön, *sondern *sie ist intelligent" is incorrect, is it?
> An article I referred to says sondern refutes "directly" one part in the existing sentence. Like "Die Banken sind nicht geOffnet, sondern nur die Wechselstuben."


It might be factually incorrect but not grammatically. If you thing that being beautiful and intelligent are incompatible then the sentence is correct.


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