# Both..and



## Veledan

Mi scusate se questa domanda è gia presentata, ma è difficile cercare 'e' al forum 

Si può usare _e ... e ..._ per l'inglese _both ... and ..., _come si usa _o ... o ..._ per _either ... or ..._?

Sto leggendo il mio primo libro italiano (_Il Nome della Rosa_, da U. Eco), e ho notato questa forma diverse volte, ma volevo chiedere il vostro avviso prima di usarla perché il libro usa spesso espressioni vecchie, e sono gia stato castigato in questo forum per usare tali frasi come "Quasi sono sicuro..." e "Molto mi è piacuto sapere..." che ho letto lì!

L'ultimo esempio che ho letto era "_E disse che ne parlava a Guglielmo perché, sapendolo gran conoscitore e dell'animo umano e delle trame del maligno, sperava che potesse dedicare parte del suo tempo prezioso a far luce su un dolorosissimo enigma._"

Vel


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## Grtngs

Ciao Veledan,
si può usare *e...e*, ma ti consiglio di usare *sia...che*, perchè secondo me è molto più comune ed usata.

Ciao,

G


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## underhouse

Hi Vel,

it is correct, of course, just keep in mind that "e....e...." is a literary form, the colloquial one being "sia....che...."!

Example:

I like both pasta and meat!
Mi piace sia la pasta che la carne!


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## housecameron

Concordo con Grtngs.
Tra l'altro nel parlato la pronuncia di *e*....*e*... richiede una certa enfasi, che rende un po' buffa e poco scorrevole la frase.
Ciao


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## Veledan

Grazie a tutti!

Non sapevo che _sia ... che ... _potesse essere usata in ogni situazione che usiamo _both ... and ..._ in inglese; l'ho interpretata (sbagliatamente) nel senso di _tanto ... quanto ... _



underhouse said:


> Hi Vel,
> 
> it is correct, of course, just keep in mind that "e....e...." is a literary form, the colloquial one being "sia....che...."!
> 
> Example:
> 
> I like both pasta and meat!
> Mi piace sia la pasta che la carne!


 
Piccola domanda più: si può dire anche _Mi *piacciono* sia la pasta che la carne, _come si può dire entrambi _Può / Possono aiutarti o mio padre o mia madre_?

Grazie di nuovo

Vel


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## Paulfromitaly

Veledan said:


> Piccola domanda più: si può dire anche _Mi *piacciono* sia la pasta che la carne,  _come si può dire entrambi _Può / Possono aiutarti o mio padre o mia madre_?
> 
> Grazie di nuovo
> 
> Vel



I'd say "mia madre o mio padre ti può (possono sounds more natural to me) aiutare"


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## fdelnero

> Piccola domanda più: si può dire anche _Mi *piacciono* sia la pasta che la carne, _come si può dire entrambi _Può / Possono aiutarti o mio padre o mia madre_?



Ad essere del tutto precisi, quando usi sia...che:
puoi dire Mi piace sia la pasta che la carne perchè in questo caso pasta e carne hanno funzione logica di oggetto.

Se fossere soggetto, dovresti usare per forza il verbo al plurale, es:

Sia la pasta che la carne sono essenziali per una corretta alimentazione 

Sia la pasta che la carne è essenziale per una corretta alimentazione


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## Eva86

ciao a tutti,
vorrei un parere su questa frase:
<<I had the opportunity both to practice my university knowledge and to improove my German.>>
E´ corretta? In italiano volevo dire che ho avuto l´opportunitá sia di mettere in pratica le mie conoscenze universitarie sia di migliorare il mio tedesco.
Grazie!


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## Magmod

Eva86 said:


> ciao a tutti,
> vorrei un parere su questa frase:
> <<I had the opportunity both to practice my university knowledge and to improove my German.>>
> E´ corretta? In italiano volevo dire che ho avuto l´opportunitá sia di mettere in pratica le mie conoscenze universitarie sia di migliorare il mio tedesco.
> Grazie!


 
<<I had the opportunity  to practice both my university knowledge and to improve my German.>>
 
<<I had the opportunity  to practice  my university knowledge as well as  to improve my German.>>


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## Eva86

Thank you very much!


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## brian

Magmod said:


> I had the opportunity  to practice both my university knowledge and to improve my German.
> 
> I had the opportunity  to practice  my university knowledge as well as  to improve my German.



Sorry, but:

_I had the opportunity *both* to practice my university knowledge *and* to improve my German._

You need to say either: "_both to ___ and to ____" or "_to both ___ and ____."

Your sentence would only be correct if you meant something like: "_to practice both my university knowledge and my German_."

Also, I don't really like "_practice my university knowledge_" in English; I'd rather "*put into practice*_ my university knowledge._"


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## Einstein

Magmod said:


> <<I had the opportunity to practice both my university knowledge and to improve my German.>>
> 
> <<I had the opportunity to practice my university knowledge as well as to improve my German.>>


 
I agree with the second example, but for the first I consider the original with "both" before "practice" (or BE practise) more correct. I had the opportunity to do two things:
_BOTH_
_to practice my university knowledge_
_AND_
_to improve my German._

If one verb is applicable to both, you can say:
_to practice_
_BOTH_
_my university knowledge_
_AND_
_my German._

I know there's a tendency when speaking to put "both" after the verb in any case, but in a written formal text it's better in the most logical position.

_PS Hi Brian, I'm glad we agree on something today (also about the use of "practice")._


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## Alxmrphi

Is it true that in Italian you can also use "*sia... sia*" I'm sure I've seen that somewhere.


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## brian

Einstein said:
			
		

> _PS Hi Brian, I'm glad we agree on something today (also about the use of "practice")._



Woohoo! 



			
				Alex_Murphy said:
			
		

> Is it true that in Italian you can also use "*sia... sia*" I'm sure I've seen that somewhere.



Yep, "sia...sia" or "sia...che," where "sia...sia" is usually more formal or is used in cases where you would have a double "che" (like two "che" clauses) or where using "che" would sound weird, as if introducing a new clause; so it helps avoid confusion.


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## Leo57

Eva86 said:


> In italiano volevo dire che ho avuto l´opportunitá *sia* di mettere in pratica le mie conoscenze universitarie *sia *di migliorare il mio tedesco.




Here it is Alex! 

Leo


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## Einstein

*Sia... sia* can often mean *whether... or*:

_Sia che tu esca, sia che tu rimanga in casa...._
Whether you go out or stay at home...


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## brian

Leo57 said:
			
		

> Here it is Alex!



Yeah, there you go. It would sound weird (at least to me) to have "che di" next to each other. I don't know if the Italians agree.


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## Alxmrphi

Sorry to pester but could you give me an example of where it would be all mucky and how using the 'sia''s can resolve it, I know exactly what you mean and can understand the message, I'd just also like to see it written down, just two examples, one with too many confusing 'che's and how it could be confusing.



Einstein said:


> *Sia... sia* can often mean *whether... or*:
> 
> _*Sia che* tu esca, *sia che* tu rimanga in casa...._
> Whether you go out or stay at home...


 
But here Einstein aren't you using two separate instances of 'sia che' ?


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## Einstein

I'm not sure if I've got your point, Alex. I could give another example:
sia parlando, sia leggendo = _whether talking or reading_, which is a bit different from _both talking and reading_. I've never been quite sure how to distinguish in Italian.


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## Alxmrphi

It's just we were talking about "sia che" and "sia sia", but it looked like you used "sia che sia che", or are your 'che'*'s* relative pronouns?

I hope colours make it easier to explain

sia che .... sia che ...

or 

sia che .... sia che...


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## eyeswideopen

Hi Alex, 
I'm not sure I'm getting your point, but:


> _*
> 
> 
> 
> Sia che tu esca, sia che tu rimanga in casa....
> Whether you go out or stay at home...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *_But here Einstein aren't you using two separate instances of 'sia che' ?


No, Einstein is using a single instance of sia...sia...
The additional che you see are introducing the subordinate clause.
In Italian we never use *sia che...* united (here I mean the two coordinating conjunctions), they will always be separed by the first term of the coordination.
And to add just my little grain on the subject, my Italian professor ever wanted us to use *sia...sia...* and not *sia...che...* exactly to avoid the ambiguity with relative clauses


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## Alxmrphi

Gotcha It makes sense now, it's just unusual to see relative pronouns the way it was, without the context of the rest of the sentence.


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## ilcigno

Einstein said:


> I'm not sure if I've got your point, Alex. I could give another example:
> sia parlando, sia leggendo = _whether talking or reading_, which is a bit different from _both talking and reading_. I've never been quite sure how to distinguish in Italian.


 
I learned that the correct use when you mean "whether" is
*sia* parlando *o* leggendo
though in speaking people do tend to use the sia ... sia form. But my teacher was a stickler and didn't like sia ... che either, while acknowledging that it was by far the more common of the two in spoken Italian.


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## Einstein

OK, I'v got you now. It's the same as Brian said: if I say _whether you do A or you do B..._, the clauses following "whether" and "or" begin with "che". If we translate "or" as "che", then we get two "che"s together.
Notice that *sia* is also the subjunctive of *to be*. If you think in old English you can imagine a sentence like: "Be it that you do A, be it that you do B..." The two *be it*s are *sia* and *sia/che*, while the two *that*s are also *che*. That's why we get *sia che* together in the first part and we use *sia* also in the second part to avoid having *che che*.

Clear as mud?


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## Alxmrphi

So in the construction *whether you verb or you verb*....
The Italian has to have this construction with the 'che' (*the be it that you.... part*)...

*Whether* you fail your exam *or *pass it you're parents will still be proud of you.
*Sia* che tu sia bocciato all'esame *sia* che tu lo passi i tuoi genitori sarebbero ancora fieri di te.

Is that right? and the two *che*'s are the necessary '_be it_ *that*' structure you talked about?
I really feel I am learning something new today It's nice.


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## pandinorombante

Alex_Murphy said:


> So in the construction *whether you verb or you verb*....
> The Italian has to have this construction with the 'che' (*the be it that you.... part*)...
> 
> *Whether* you fail your exam *or *pass it you're parents will still be proud of you.
> *Sia* che tu sia bocciato all'esame *sia* che tu lo passi i tuoi genitori sarebbero ancora fieri di te.
> 
> Is that right?



 (only a small correction: "saranno comunque" instead of "sarebbero ancora")



Alex_Murphy said:


> and the two *che*'s are the necessary '_be it_ *that*' structure you talked about?





If I can add my opinion the two "che"s are necessary, since after "sia" there's not a noun, but a clause..

To explain better:

First option: .. 'sia' + noun, 'sia' / 'che' + noun   Example: "Mi piacciono sia la pasta sia la carne" / "Mi piacciono sia la pasta che la carne" (verb must be plural, it's like having 2 subjects)

Second option: .. 'sia che' + clause, 'sia che' + clause   Example: "Sia che tu ti scusi, sia che tu non ti scusi, ormai è troppo tardi per rimediare all'errore" (both "che"s are necessary)

Hope it helps! 

Ps: in the first option, I wouldn't necessarily choose 'sia' .. 'che'... instead of 'sia'... 'sia'... both sound correct to me, what is different is whether we have a clause or just a noun!


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## Alxmrphi

Thanks! Great explanation



> *both sound correct to me, what is different is whether we have a clause or just a noun!*
> *Entrambi mi suonano bene, cosa c'è di differente è sia che abbiamo una proporazione sia (che abbiamo) solo un sostantivo.*


 Capisco gli altri errori nella frase ma voglio mirare solo alla domanda rilevante.



> First option: .. 'sia' + noun, 'sia' / 'che' + noun Example: "Mi piacciono sia la pasta sia la carne" / "Mi piacciono sia la pasta che la carne" (verb must be plural, it's like having 2 subjects)
> Second option: .. 'sia che' + clause, 'sia che' + clause Example: "Sia che tu ti scusi, sia che tu non ti scusi, ormai è troppo tardi per rimediare all'errore" (both "che"s are necessary)



Ma la terza opzione: '*sia che*' + clause, '*sia*' + noun = è giusto quello che ho scritto? Nel tuo esempio li hai combinati, e pensavo di provare a tradurlo, per assicurarmi di averlo capito bene.


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## Magmod

Einstein said:


> I know there's a tendency when speaking to put "both" after the verb ._._


 
Yes I agree with you Einstein 

  <<I had the opportunity to practice both my university knowledge and to improve my German.>>

 The person was practicing both his university knowledge and improving his German.

 The sentence as I suggested is the more common way of speaking.

 I didn't say Eva's version is wrong. I just gave a better version


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## Einstein

Magmod said:


> <<I had the opportunity to practice both my university knowledge and to improve my German.>>
> In spoken English we might even say "I *both* had the opportunity to practise my university knowledge *and* to improve my German" (which I actually prefer to your version), but I think Eva wanted help with a written sentence and her original version was both clearer and more logical.
> 
> The sentence as I suggested is the more common way of speaking. It's common, too common to fight, maybe, but I don't know if it has a crushing majority. I certainly wouldn't correct Eva's version, which to me doesn't sound strange. Matter of taste...


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## Magmod

Einstein said:


> I certainly wouldn't correct Eva's version, which to me doesn't sound strange.  Matter of taste...


 
  I agree with everything you said.  

 I did not correct Eva's version, I just gave 2 further alternatives.


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## pandinorombante

Alex_Murphy said:


> Thanks! Great explanation



Alex,

I tried to explain at my best but I gave an example which i'm afraid will get things more complicated.. 



Alex_Murphy said:


> Capisco gli altri errori nella frase ma voglio mirare solo alla domanda rilevante.



Your translation of "both sound correct to me, what is different is whether we have a clause or just a noun" is not correct.. in this case, you don't use 'sia': "entrambi mi suonano corretti/giusti, quello che è differente è se abbiamo una frase o semplicemente un sostantivo"..



Alex_Murphy said:


> Ma la terza opzione: '*sia che*' + clause, '*sia*' + noun = è giusto quello che ho scritto? Nel tuo esempio li hai combinati, e pensavo di provare a tradurlo, per assicurarmi di averlo capito bene.



Concerning the option 'sia che' + clause.. 'sia' + noun.. , I think it's not possible (I prefer not to say that I'm quite sure about this point, maybe other natives will deny it.. let's see!).. only the 2 options I already mentioned in my previous post are ok!



I'd like to share with you all my knowledge: I was taught that "whether... or..." can be used when talking about a choice or an indirect question:

-  Choice: "whether you do it or not/you don't do it, now it doesn't matter anymore" --> "che tu lo faccia o no, ora non ha più importanza/non importa più"

-  Indirect question: "he doesn't know, whether he was right or not" (can you use 'if' here instead of 'whether'?) --> "non sa, se aveva ragione o meno"

Am I on the right track or is there anything I'm missing?


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