# it is only said/used in ...



## kyrintethron

Hey everyone, so I've been learning a little about the passive voice, and I just want to make sure that thus far my understanding is correct. Here is the sentence that I've put together:

"早安"只在台湾和香港被说。 - "早安" is only said in Taiwan and Hong Kong.

1) I'm not sure if this sentence is actually true, but according to what I read when I started learning greetings, 早安 is mostly used in Taiwan and Hong Kong.

2) I read that 被 is generally used in a 被[agent][verb] type structure, as in: 普通话被北京人说 - Mandarin is spoken by Beijingers. Can it be used alone as in my original sentence, where the agent is omitted?

3) Also, I seem to remember that 被 can be omitted, and the passive voice is implied just by the context of the sentence.

Bonus points if I used 只 right, lol! I'm working on that now, too. But 被 and the passive voice are the focuses of this question.

谢谢!
-K


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## YangMuye

It's a little hard to explain the passive voice in Chinese.

I think in 80% cases, when the agent is not human, or can be replaced with "many people", "most people" or "we", then we will not use explict passive voice(we will not use the word 被).
 Instead, we leave the slot of agent blank, and put adverbials like 今天,这里,通常 and so on, before the verb.

For examples, we will say:
只有(在)香港和台湾说“早安”。
草丛里发现了一具尸体。
晚饭做好了。

被 is usually used when 
1. both the agent and the object are humans(otherwise it will cause confusion) 
e.g. 我被打了。
2. the action/event is unusual.
这倒题被我做出来了。
3. The action has bad affacts
下水道被堵了。

I think the usage of 被 is very hard to explain.
I suggest you don't try to map English passive into Chinese.
E.g. The constructure 北京话被中国人说 is impossible Chinese.

Chinese passive voice is usually used with past tense/perfect aspect.


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## stellari

"早安"只在台湾和香港被说 and 普通话被北京人说 are not idiomatic. I'm not sure if there is rule for that, but my personal impression is that if the verb is monosyllabic and no other particles can be added to make it multisyllabic, then you should refrain from using the 被 ... structure. This is especially true when the subject contains multiple syllables.  I guess the main idea is that you want to keep the sentence balanced. Also, 被 sometimes adds a 'formal' flavour to the entire sentence. By using more multisyllabic words (which are usually more formal than their monosyllabic counterparts), you make the sentence more consistent.

For the first sentence, if you change 说 to 用到 (made use of). i.e. "早安"只在台湾和香港被用到, then it is good. For the second one, you can use 使用 to replace 说 -- 普通话被北京人使用 (still slightly awkward), or better yet 普通话被北京人广泛使用 (is 'widely used' by Beijingers. idiomatic).

Also I'd probably not use passive voice for the above sentences to begin with. You have many other options, although none of them are the direct translation of the equivalent English sentences. For example:
"早安"只有台湾人和香港人说/ "早安"只（有）在台湾和香港说。
普通话是北京人说的/北京人说的是普通话


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## SuperXW

I agree with others.
Although 某种语言被说 seems grammatical, it's not idiomatic.


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## Ghabi

kyrintethron said:


> But 被 and the passive voice are the focuses of this question.


Wow, you've opened a can of worms, Kyrintethron. You can write whole books (tomes, actually) on this topic. There are too many things involved. Just a few things off the top of my head (besides what others have said above):

-Does it make much sense to talk about "passive voice" in the first place when it comes to topic-prominent languages like Chinese?

-How translationese has affected contemporary Chinese (especially written Chinese), which is riddled with the 被 structure? 

-Does Chinese sentences containing 被 always correspond to the English passive structure? The so-called "adversative passive" comes to mind.

And these seem only to be the tip of the iceberg.


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## Skatinginbc

Ill-formed vs. well-formed
这倒题被我做 vs. 这倒题被我做出来了 . 
钢琴被他弹 vs. 钢琴被他弹得这么好听.
"早安"在台湾被说 vs. "早安"在台湾被说烂了. 
普通话被北京人说 vs. 普通话被北京人说得像唱歌似的.
The above examples all involve a further description to modify the verb.  It is what  YangMuye called "the action/event is unusual" (see Post #2).


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## Rethliopuks

Skatinginbc said:


> Ill-formed vs. well-formed
> 这倒题被我做 vs. 这倒题被我做出来了 .
> 钢琴被他弹 vs. 钢琴被他弹得这么好听.
> "早安"在台湾被说 vs. "早安"在台湾被说烂了.
> 普通话被北京人说 vs. 普通话被北京人说得像唱歌似的.
> The above examples all involve a further description to modify the verb.  It is what  YangMuye called "the action/event is unusual" (see Post #2).



I don't think so...only 1st and 3rd are intuitively right to me.(of "well-formed")
Actually 被 conveys a special nuance of "meaningly passive", as mentioned in 3) of post #2. 
So there is actually no problem in saying all of these sentences, it's just that the way you put it/think it is strange.
比方说第四句……它的意思是说话人觉得有种普通话numb, 任受摆布/操作，且/或强调北京人的施加上的主导性/擅自改变/exerting，并有可能普通话原本并不好听/不是这样的感觉- -(sorry that I failed to find a proper way to put this completely in English)
The first sounds right since the speaker can be intending to show a sense of "victory": "Yeah! It's conquered!" (And, sometimes I love saying so especially when the question has been considered difficult, tricky, challenging, hard to solve, or time consuming. ;p
The third sentence expresses a disapproval, which agrees with its intended meaning and overall feeling.


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## Ghabi

Moderator's Note: Dear All, please be reminded that what the original poster asks about is the use of the passive structure in Chinese. The "truth value" of his example sentence doesn't really concerns us here. The discussion about the regional differences of the greeting 早安 now has its own thread.


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## kyrintethron

Heh, well that escalated quickly. Well it seems that 被 is quite a troublesome little word with some very specific uses. For context, the main way that I wanted to use the passive voice (which will probably complicate things even further) was as a footnote on a flash card for 早安. At the bottom, I wanted to write the equivalent of "Only used in Taiwan and Hong Kong". So, I figured before I start trying to write incomplete sentences, I may as well learn how to write the complete version first.

What seems to be most useful for my purposes right now is YangMuye's suggestion of using adverbials, such as 通常. Also stellari's suggestion of switching 说 to 用到. Looking at stellari's example sentence, "早安"只（有）在台湾和香港说, this appears to be most like what I'm trying to achieve. So with my original footnote in mind, would this be idiomatic, say, as a usage note in a textbook:

通常只有在台湾和香港用到 / 通常只有在台湾和香港说 - Usually only used/said in Taiwan and Hong Kong.

Or, in keeping with normal, idiomatic style, how might such a phrase be written without using the passive voice but still without mentioning the subject? Or can this not be done?

Last quick question, in all the instances where 只有 was suggested instead of 只, was this just a matter of balance/parallelism or an effort to keep the tone casual? Or does 只有 actually have a different meaning from 只 in these sentences?

谢谢你们!
-K


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## xiaolijie

> Last quick question, in all the instances where 只有 was suggested instead of 只, was this just a matter of balance/parallelism or an effort to keep the tone casual? Or does 只有 actually have a different meaning from 只 in these sentences?


This question should be a topic of its own and I suggest that we leave it out of this thread.

xlj,
Moderator


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## YangMuye

If you want to use it in a footnote, it can be considered that there is an implied subject 早安.

You have many choices:
1. Use it with 补语, so that it is understood as an unmarked passive. I prefer this.
（早安）只用于香港和台湾。
2. Drop the agent and put the subject/object at the beginning of the sentence.
（早安）只在香港和台湾使用。
3. Keep the normal word order and put the subject at the beginning of the sentence.
（早安）只有香港和台湾使用。

只 is usually used before verbs, adverbs and prepositions.
只有 is usually used before nouns.
There are some other differences.

We usually avoid to begin a sentence with a verb or preposition, so I will often say
只有香港说早安。桌子上放着一个苹果。今天有人来了 rather than 只在香港...。在桌子上...。在今天...。They sound like that the subjects are omitted and the sentences are not complete.
The verb 有 is an exception.

It's a little hard to explain the difference between option 2 and 3.
I can only think of 
3.

1. 早安只在香港使用。 sound like "we usually ... and should ...". It implies it's a convention or best practice and should be followed.
早安只有香港使用。
is just the fact.

Japanese sometimes uses different voice for the two meanings.
2.
You can't say 只在香港使用早安, otherwise it sounds like a command.
3.
When a part of a sentence is shared by two sentences, we tend to move it in between.


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## kyrintethron

YangMuye said:
			
		

> 1. Use it with 补语, so that it is understood as an unmarked passive. I prefer this.
> （早安）只用于香港和台湾。



This seems really convenient. My "trusty" C-E Dictionary tells me that 用于 literally means "use in", "use on" or "use for" which corresponds pretty much perfectly to what I was aiming for with "only *said/used in* Taiwan...". It's very useful for this situation, but I noticed there aren't other pre-made verbs for other situations, e.g. 吃于, 喝于, 说于, etc. 

By any chance is this not the pre-formed 用于, and the preposition 于 actually is just preferable to 在 for use in passive phrases? I'm thinking no, but I'd be remiss if I didn't ask.




			
				stellari said:
			
		

> For the first sentence, if you change 说 to 用到 (made use of). i.e. "早安"只在台湾和香港被用到, then it is good.



After re-reading this thread about a dozen times (lol), I investigated 用到 further, and did not find it in my aforementioned "trustworthy" dictionary. But I did find 到, which is defined as being able to show the result of an action, which has a passive air to it. So could this be used with other verbs? e.g. 吃到, 喝到, 说到, etc.




			
				YangMuye said:
			
		

> 2. Drop the agent and put the subject/object at the beginning of the sentence.
> （早安）只在香港和台湾使用。
> 3. Keep the normal word order and put the subject at the beginning of the sentence.
> （早安）只有香港和台湾使用。



I think I see the difference here, at least from your explanation. I may have to start a 只 vs 只有 thread, but at least now I understand the sentence structure, and it seems my biggest folly was my choice of verb (and not understanding the best way to say "only").

Anyway, thanks for all of your help thus far. 

-K


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## kyrintethron

Also, I don't know if it's simply a matter of sounding idiomatic, but 说 is obviously eschewed in favor of "use" verbs like 用到, 使用, and maybe 用于(只有香港和台湾用于?). Are there "say"/"speak" verbs that could work here in a passive sense as well? or are the 用-compounds simply preferred because they sound more natural?

-K


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## YangMuye

kyrintethron said:


> By any chance is this not the pre-formed 用于, and the preposition 于 actually is just preferable to 在 for use in passive phrases? I'm thinking no, but I'd be remiss if I didn't ask.


Strictly speaking, 于 is not a 补语 but a post-verb preposition in old Chinese and only used in written Chinese and is very formal. But it just appears in the position of 补语 of modern Chinese.

Although you don't say 吃于, 喝于, 说于, you say 发表于，写于，生产于，销毁于……
In normal speech, you would say 在…发表，在…发表，在…生产，在……销毁。

在……写 is not used because the verb is perfect aspect (completed action) and need a 补语（complement）, we usually say 在……写成.

As for 在……用 and 在……说, we prefer two syllable verbs here, but they are still natural to my ears. A better one is 在……使用



kyrintethron said:


> After re-reading this thread about a dozen times (lol), I investigated 用到 further, and did not find it in my aforementioned "trustworthy" dictionary. But I did find 到, which is defined as being able to show the result of an action, which has a passive air to it. So could this be used with other verbs? e.g. 吃到, 喝到, 说到, etc.


早安只在台湾和香港被用到 does not sound natural to me. But 到 is a common 补语 (结果补语). You can say 信已经送到了。 It's often used to report the completion of an activity(送信). The agent is not important and not said in this sentence.


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## kyrintethron

I see. Well it was worth the inquiry nonetheless, and I got to learn some new things. Thanks, YangMuye.

-K


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## stellari

kyrintethron said:


> After re-reading this thread about a dozen times (lol), I investigated 用到 further, and did not find it in my aforementioned "trustworthy" dictionary. But I did find 到, which is defined as being able to show the result of an action, which has a passive air to it. So could this be used with other verbs? e.g. 吃到, 喝到, 说到, etc.



The exact meaning of 到 after verb heavily depends on the verb itself. This may require a another thread but I'll do a very short summary here. It indicates 1. the action achieves the expected result: 看(look) -> 看到(see); 送(send)->送到(reach) etc.; and/or 2. the object/purpose/effect of the action is extended 'to', or includes, something. For instance: '用到+A' structure means that 'A' is an addition to the collection of things being used; A is not the only thing that is used, but it will be/was made use of at some point. 

吃到/喝到 fit into case 1. They would be interpreted as 'manage to eat/drink', implying a hard effort may be involved in getting the food/drink. 说到, on the other hand, may fall into the second category. It indicates that something is added into the topic of the conversation, and is usually translated as 'mention', 'speaking of'. For example: 说到那个人，他去哪里了(Speaking of that man, where did he go?)

BTW, for me
"早安"只在台湾和香港(会)被用到 may be a little formal, but it is more natural than
"早安"只在台湾和香港被使用 and
“早安”只有台湾和香港使用

"早安"只在台湾和香港被使用 sounds a lot like a sentence that I would see on, for example, a manual.   “早安”只有台湾和香港使用, for some reason, sounds incomplete although  grammatically it is. If I need to say this in a conversation, I'd  definitely go for "早安"只在台湾和香港会被用到.
It might be a personal preference, after all. 

Also you may want to add an additional 会, which renders the whole sentence a lot more smoother.


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