# bitter as an adverb



## Agnès E.

Bonjour ! 

I've come with this sentence:

*It was a bitter cold night.*

Now, I wonder if _bitter_ is an adverb here, or makes a sort of compound adjective with cold. My dictionary gives bitter as an adjective only, so I'm a bit lost.

In case it is an adverb, would you please explain me if it is commonly used, and if it is formal, colloquial or standard English?

Thanks in advance...

Edit: I just saw in our beloved dictionary that bitter _is_ an adverb. So my question will be restricted to register only. I'm sorry...


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## Siberia

If "bitter" means very, extremely then it can be considered an adverb, an adverb of degree.

Just saw your message below.  But I've added a bit of information so........


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## Agnès E.

Thank you Siberia. 


Can this adverb be used with another adjective, or is it limited to cold? 
Could I say something like: _Oh, she's such a bitter fat little girl!_ or _He lives in a bitter big house!_

I suspect the answer is: no, and that _bitter_ can only be connected to cold, right?


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## Siberia

I've only heard it with cold.


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## Siberia

I think we often say "It's bitter cold" to mean "It's very cold".  In the above post the reference was to COLD and not anything else.


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## okey-dokey

But we also say _It's a bitter night_. Here we could hardly classify bitter as an adverb. I wouldn't accept bitter as an adverb - _bitterly_, yes, as in _It's a bitterly cold night_.


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## emma42

I have deleted my last post because it is messy and I didn't think it through.  Apologies.


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## MissFit

Agnès E. said:


> Edit: I just saw in our beloved dictionary that bitter _is_ an adverb. So my question will be restricted to register only. I'm sorry...


 
Although I love the WR forums, I don't love the WR dictionary. In most cases I find it woefully inadequate. In this case, I disagree with it. [The following is the frustrated rant of a public school educator.] _Bitter_ is not an adverb; it is an adjective. The corresponding adverb is _bitterly_. I can't find any other dictionary that lists _bitter_ as an adverb. If _bitter_ is listed in some other dictionaries as an adverb, it is because dictionaries only report how words are actually used in the real world and very few people learn to use adverbs correctly these days.

If the word was meant to be an adverb, it should be, "_It was a bitter*ly* cold night_."
If it was meant to be an adjective, it should be, "_It was a bitter*,* cold night_."

The only case in which the word _bitter_ should describe the word _cold_ is when _cold_ is used as a noun. For example, "_The bitter cold kept me indoors_."

[end of rant] I feel better now. 
You may all proceed to disagree now if you like.


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## Siberia

In "It's a bitter night" I would think it is obvious that "bitter" is an adjective.
But in "bitter cold" Bitter is an adverb of degree qualifying the extent of coldness.
If you'd like to control dictionary.com
_adverb _11.extremely; very; exceedingly: _a bitter cold night. _


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## emma42

Dear Missfit, I do sympathise, but many dictionaries do have "bitter" as an adverb after "cold".  Have a Google.

I do think that dictionaries "reporting words as they are actually used in the real world" has its merits, otherwise we might variously be speaking "Ug", Latin, Anglo-Saxon, Ancient Aramaic.....

Of course, in the example in question, there would have to be a comma to make "bitter" an adjective.


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## okey-dokey

I shouldn't worry too much what a dictionary has to say. They are compiled by mere mortals. I think you have to consider how a native intones phrases such as _a bitter cold night_ and _a bitterly cold night._ In _unmarked utterance_ bitterly and cold almost run together just as very and big in a very big house. That suggests to me that bitterly is adverbial just as very is. Bitter and cold have a slight pause in _unmarked utterance_ just as great and big do in a great big house. Great and bitter are adjectival words.


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## LV4-26

I'd say the register is colloquial, as it is each time an adjective is used for an adverb.

Compare
_It's bitter cold out here.
It's real cold out here.
_
Both _bitter_ and _real _are used in the place of their respective adverbs (_bitterly_ and _really_).... I think....


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## JamesM

The same applies for "freezing cold night".    Google shows 15,000 hits for "freezing cold night" and, uh, 41 for "freezingly cold night."  Although "freezingly cold night" might be grammatically correct, it would sound very strange to my ears.


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## GregLee

MissFit said:


> _Bitter_ is not an adverb; it is an adjective. The corresponding adverb is _bitterly_.
> 
> The only case in which the word _bitter_ should describe the word _cold_ is when _cold_ is used as a noun. For example, "_The bitter cold kept me indoors_."


Yes, I think it is clear that "bitter" is an adjective, not an adverb.  In The Syntactic Phenomena of English, James McCawley discusses an example like "a bitter cold night".  His example is "a dark blue necktie", where he claims "blue" functions simultaneously as a noun (being modified by the adjective "dark") and as an adjective (modifying the noun "necktie").  If McCawley's analysis is right, we should find cases like this where the "-ly" is mysteriously missing, only when the following modified word can, like "cold" and "blue", be used as either a noun or an adjective.


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## panjandrum

'Tis bitter cold, And I am sicke at heart. 
_*1602* Hamlet __I. i. 7_ 

It seems to be a bit unusual


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## emma42

Having thought about it, "bitter cold" is common around these parts.  The words, not the weather.


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## cuchuflete

Siberia said:


> In "It's a bitter night" I would think it is obvious that "bitter" is an adjective.
> But in "bitter cold" Bitter is an adverb of degree qualifying the extent of coldness.
> If you'd like to control dictionary.com
> _adverb _11.extremely; very; exceedingly: _a bitter cold night. _



The dictionaries I usually consult are in agreement that bitter can be an adverb.  They all use the same, single example:  a bitter cold night/day/wind/other noun.  

I'm not fully persuaded that it is, for that single construction, an adverb that modifies or limits
cold.  It may be an intensifier, a type of adverb such as so, quite, very, fairly in this particular case. It may be more of an adjective, describing the kind of cold that, in turn, modifies night.  The reason I am leaning towards accepting the arguments for it being an adverb is that any other modifier I can quickly think of that would be used to modify cold is also an adverb: somewhat, very, exceedingly, mildly, etc.  Also, as someone else already noted, if there were an additional adjective modifying night, it would probably be separated from cold with a comma:  harsh, cold night; dark, cold night.  With or without a comma, those words obviously apply to night, and not to cold.


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## pyan

"Cold night", "bitter night", "a bitter cold" and "bitterly cold night" seem fine to me. 

The posts above show "biitter cold night" is acceptable. I shall make an effort to become comfortable when others use it (no gritted teeth smiley available) but I won't use it.


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## .   1

I hope I do not confuse the issue with a slightly poetic take on the phrase as I suspect that the use of bitter cold may imbue more meaning than bitterly cold.
*bitter *_adj _*1* having or denoting an unpalatable harsh taste, as the peel of an orange or coffee dregs. Compare *sour *(sense 1) *2 *showing or caused by strong unrelenting hostility or resentment:  _he was still bitter about the divorce. _*3  *difficult or unpleasant to accept or admit: _a bitter blow._ *4  *cutting; sarcastic:  _bitter words._ *5 *bightingly cold:  _a bitter night._  * adv *6 *very; extremely (especially in the phrase *bitter cold*)

Bitterly cold is not necessarily negative or at least it doesn't sound as totally and unrelentingly negative as bitter cold.
Bitterly cold just means very cold but bitter cold brings in unpalatable and resentment and unpleasant and cutting which seem more moody and atmospheric than bitterly cold.

.,,


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## gaer

MissFit said:


> Although I love the WR forums, I don't love the WR dictionary. In most cases I find it woefully inadequate. In this case, I disagree with it. [The following is the frustrated rant of a public school educator.] _Bitter_ is not an adverb; it is an adjective.


 
bitter
Function: adverb
: to a bitter degree <it's bitter cold> 

link

You disagree with MW too.


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## cuchuflete

Following *.,,'s* line of poetic reasoning, I think, I offer up a parallel Maine expression: wicked cold.

There's a wicked cold wind blowing down the Sheepscot River, and it cuts right through you.

Is wicked an adjective or an adverb in that sentence?  I suggest that, whichever part of speech it may be, the meaning is different for each.  Wicked, around where I live, is an intensifier.  The usage is adverbial.  A wicked witch, with an adjective in front of witch, has an evil characteristic, with only the intensity of the adjective.  I take bitter, in _bitter cold_ night, to be parallel to _wicked good_ lobster chowder.


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## gaer

Results 1 - 10 of about 1,130,000 for "bitter cold".

Shakespeare used it. I've heard it all my life. I don't see anything the slightest bit informal about it. It's a set phrase.

Since "bitter cold" has much the same meaning as "very cold", I think it's clear that it is used as an adverb in this one phrase.

I don't have the means to search, but I would not be at all surprised to find "bitter cold" used by many famous authors.

Gaer


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## .   1

cuchuflete said:


> There's a wicked cold wind blowing down the Sheepscot River, and it cuts right through you.


We call that wind a lazy wind.  It is too lazy to blow around you so it blows straight through you.

.,,


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## gaer

LV4-26 said:


> I'd say the register is colloquial, as it is each time an adjective is used for an adverb.


_IT was not very long after this that there occurred the first of the mysterious events that rid us at last of the captain, though not, as you will see, of his affairs. It was a _*bitter cold*_ winter, with long, hard frosts and heavy gales; and it was plain from the first that my poor father was little likely to see the spring._

Treasure Island. 
link

There is nothing colloquial about it at all. It is correct English and has been for a very long time. 

Gaer


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## cuchuflete

gaer said:


> Since "bitter cold" has much the same meaning as "very cold", I think it's clear that it is used as an adjective in this one phrase.



Gaer and I disagree about once a year.  This must be our day.  Since "bitter cold" has much the same meaning as "very cold", and because Gaer calls bitter an adjective in this one phrase, then "very" must also be an adjective.    That's not the way I think of very when it is used as an intensifier.

Now lets add the final noun:  bitter cold day (I replaced 'night' because it's getting boring!).

If, as Gaer and I agree, bitter in this construction means very, then we have 'very cold day'.
Bitter doesn't seem to be modifying day.  It does appear to be an intensifier for cold.

Intensifier:  Grammar. a word, *esp. an adverb*, or other linguistic element that indicates, and usually increases, the degree of emphasis or force to be given to the element it modifies, as _very_ or _somewhat;_ intensive adverb.


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## gaer

cuchuflete said:


> Gaer and I disagree about once a year. This must be our day. Since "bitter cold" has much the same meaning as "very cold", and because Gaer calls bitter an adjective in this one phrase, then "very" must also be an adjective.  That's not the way I think of very when it is used as an intensifier.


No, we don't disagree at all. I mistyped. I meant ADVERB!!!

So sorry. I need to correct that!

G.


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## .   1

Damn.
You blokes have the most wonderfully polite literary stouches that are virtually guaranteed to contain inter alia fascinating information.



LV4-26 said:


> I'd say the register is colloquial, as it is each time an adjective is used for an adverb.


I think that the Collins dictionary disagrees with you as it uses *bitter cold* as an example of the adjectival use and neglects to label it as anything other than usual use.

.,,


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## cuchuflete

Just to further perplex those who may give a damn, bitter in bitter cold may be either an adj. or an adv.
I maintain that in 'bitter cold night' it is an adverb.

Adverb:  bitter cold=very cold.  It's so bitter cold that the brass monkey had a bit of anatomy crystalize and shatter.

Adjective: The bitter cold makes the river ice groan and wail.

Stouches?  Off to the dictionary.


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## .   1

Sorry about the spelling error.
It is stoush.
*stoush *_Australian and NZ slang_ _vb _*1 *(tr) to hit or punch * _n _*2 *fighting, violence, or a fight.

Not to be a picker of nits but didn't the said tender bits detach rather than shatter.

.,,


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## Agnès E.

I wouldn't like to spoil the fun, especially since you've provided me pretty extraordinary help. 
One tiny little detail, though, on which I would like to insist to be fully sure: you may not use _bitter_ in the sense of _very_ with anything else than _cold_, right?


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## winklepicker

Agnès E. said:


> you may not use _bitter_ in the sense of _very_ with anything else than _cold_, right?


 
Hi Agnès. I can't think of any other combination - unless you count _bitter-sweet_, which is a rather different thing. You certainly can't say _bitter warm_ or _bitter windy_ or _bitter hot_...


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## emma42

No, I can't think of anything else either.  I also recall reading that "bitter cold" is the only instance in which "bitter" can be used as an adverb, but I can't quote the source.


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## danielfranco

I must have the wrong dictionaries. I can't find one that says that "bitter" is an adverb. They all say it's an adjective, and that it needs the -ly ending to become an adverb.
For what it's worth, I had an idea (since it's snowing around these here parts), that maybe it's an idiom. I mean, we all seem to be unable to think of anything other than a "bitter cold". So the phrase becomes an adjectival phrase for anything you'd care to stick behind it.

But I wonder if an adjectival phrase remains functioning as and adjective, or if it becomes an adverb.

Hmm... [*double-vexed*]


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## .   1

Agnès E. said:


> One tiny little detail, though, on which I would like to insist to be fully sure: you may not use _bitter_ in the sense of _very_ with anything else than _cold_, right?


I think that you are correct.  I can think of no other time that bitter is used this way.

.,,


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## JamesM

danielfranco said:


> I mean, we all seem to be unable to think of anything other than a "bitter cold". So the phrase becomes an adjectival phrase for anything you'd care to stick behind it.


 
Actually, I brought up "freezing cold morning/night" a few posts back.  It has the same structure. There is also "biting cold morning".  I have also heard "frozen cold morning" and "frosty cold morning."  None of these are as common as "bitter cold morning" but they are used, nonetheless.

To me, all of these words modify "cold", indicating the intensity of the cold. They do not modify morning or night. In that sense, they seem to be functioning as adverbs.


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## cuchuflete

danielfranco said:


> I must have the wrong dictionaries. I can't find one that says that "bitter" is an adverb. They all say it's an adjective, and that it needs the -ly ending to become an adverb.



A few dictionaries that list adverbial uses:



> *D
> *_adverb_
> *1 *piercingly, bitterly, bitingly, *bitter*
> 
> _extremely and sharply; "it was bitterly cold"; "bitter cold"_


WordNet/WordReference



> –adverb  11.extremely; very; exceedingly: a bitter cold night.


 Random House Unabridged



> adv.    In an intense or harsh way; bitterly: _a bitter cold night._


American Heritage Dictionary



> *Adverb*
> 
> *1*. Extremely and sharply; "it was bitterly cold"; "bitter cold".


 Webster's online dict.  (Really just citing WordNet again!)



> Function:	_adverb_
> *:* to a bitter degree   <it's _bitter_ cold>


Merriam-Webster


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## panjandrum

Bitter is listed in the OED, of course, as an adverb.

Apart from Shakespeare's bitter cold, the examples in the OED are:
_‘my Lady's bitter young and gamesome.’_ 1721
_‘This drug is wanted bitter bad, sir.’_ 1886


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## LV4-26

gaer said:


> There is nothing colloquial about it at all. It is correct English and has been for a very long time.





. said:


> I think that the Collins dictionary disagrees with you as it uses *bitter cold* as an example of the adjectival use and neglects to label it as anything other than usual use.


I stand twice corrected.


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## cuchuflete

OUP can leave a bitter sad taste in the mouth, as they reserve the adv. for the 20+ volume set, while the Advanced Learners Dict. from the same publisher omits the adv. form.


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## panjandrum

Bitter (adverb) gets a brief mention in the Shorter OED - the two-volume version  

A small point that strikes me now, a long way down the thread, is that  *bitter* in a bitter cold night is something more than an intensifier.  Going back to .,,'s definitions at #19, I feel some sense of the biting, cutting, painful definitions of bitter (adjective).  It's almost as if someone has to be feeling the pain for it to be a bitter cold night.


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## elroy

GregLee said:


> Yes, I think it is clear that "bitter" is an adjective, not an adverb. In The Syntactic Phenomena of English, James McCawley discusses an example like "a bitter cold night". His example is "a dark blue necktie", where he claims "blue" functions simultaneously as a noun (being modified by the adjective "dark") and as an adjective (modifying the noun "necktie"). If McCawley's analysis is right, we should find cases like this where the "-ly" is mysteriously missing, only when the following modified word can, like "cold" and "blue", be used as either a noun or an adjective.


 Well, that's a whacky grammatical analysis if I ever heard one!

"Dark" is indisputably an adverb in "dark blue necktie."  "Blue" is an adjective modifying "necktie," and since "dark" modifies "blue," it is an adverb by definition.

The same type of thing happens in "bitter cold night" (adverb, adjective, noun). 

What part of speech a word is is *solely* dependent on its function in a particular sentence.


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## .   1

GregLee said:


> Yes, I think it is clear that "bitter" is an adjective, not an adverb. In The Syntactic Phenomena of English, James McCawley discusses an example like "a bitter cold night". His example is "a dark blue necktie", where he claims "blue" functions simultaneously as a noun (being modified by the adjective "dark") and as an adjective (modifying the noun "necktie"). If McCawley's analysis is right, we should find cases like this where the "-ly" is mysteriously missing, only when the following modified word can, like "cold" and "blue", be used as either a noun or an adjective.


What is a dark necktie?
A dark (coloured) necktie perhaps.
I can not see a necktie as being described as being dark in any other way.
That being the case it is obvious that the dark blue necktie is a 'dark blue' necktie and not a 'dark' blue 'necktie'.
To follow the lead of McCawley you would be able to describe the necktie as being a dark necktie dark blue in colour but the problem is that a dark necktie is hard to find.  This is a mysterious necktie?

.,,


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## cuchuflete

elroy said:


> Well, that's a whacky grammatical analysis if I ever heard one!
> 
> "Dark" is indisputably an adverb in "dark blue necktie."  "Blue" is an adjective modifying "necktie," and since "dark" modifies "blue," it is an adverb by definition.
> 
> The same type of thing happens in "bitter cold night" (adverb, adjective, noun).
> 
> What part of speech a word is is *solely* dependent on its function in a particular sentence.



Spare us grammarians carrying theories!

Yes, you are correct in calling that grammatical analysis whacky.  That's a gentle and kind word for it.  That said, your declaration that "dark" is indisputably an adverb is equally whacky.  It's an adjective!


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## winklepicker

Winklepicker here: simplistic solutions a speciality.  

An adverb answers the question _'how?'_ doesn't it? (Unless it be an adverb of time - not material here.) We know what happens when an adverb describes a verb, but when it describes an adjective:

It's a fast car. It's an incredibly _[adverb]_ fast car. It's a fabulous _[adjective]_ fast car. 
How fast? Incredibly.  How fast? Fabulous. 

It's dark. How dark? Very dark. _Very = adverb_
It's cold. How cold? Bitterly cold. _Bitterly = adverb_

But surely the answer to_ how cold_ cannot be _'bitter'_ - unless there's an unspoken _-ly_ at the end. If not, then as okey-dokey says, _bitter cold_ must be a pair of adjectives like _great big_ house, or _fabulous fast_ car.

Or am I languishing in the dark as usual?


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## emma42

Why isn't it an adverb?  It's modifying the adjective "blue".  The tie is blue, but in a dark way - darkly.


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## cuchuflete

Simplistic answers department--  Bitter cold night offers two possibilities.  

1) You choose to read bitter as a kind of cold or a kind of night.  That would lead to calling it an adjective.

2) You choose to understand it as 'bitterly', in which case it's an adverb.

Pick one.


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## cuchuflete

emma42 said:


> Why isn't it an adverb?  It's modifying the adjective "blue".  The tie is blue, but in a dark way - darkly.



George Lucas notwithstanding, darkness is not a way, but a quality.

Is light blue sky all about the way the sky is blue, or does light describe a quality or tonality of blue?

Adverbs modify other words by describing how, or to what extent, the are or do something.

Blue isn't blue darkly.

Is a solid blue paint job about the way the blue is solidly something?


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## emma42

Just testing.


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## cuchuflete

emma42 said:


> Just testing.



And why not?  The way this thread has developed, some fine grammarian is sure to come along soon and try to persuade us that bitter is a reflexive verb or a pronoun.  

Let's see now...when we read about an angry red welt, is angry an adverb?  Does it modify welt?  Then it must be a gerund.


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## elroy

An adverb is a word that modifies a verb, an adjective, or another adverb.

In "dark blue necktie," "dark" is modifying the adjective "blue"; it is qualifying, modifying, or limiting the blueness of the necktie.

For it to be an adjective, it would have to modify a noun or pronoun.  It is not modifying "necktie," so it cannot be an adjective.

At most one could consider "dark-blue" a single adjective, but "dark" itself is not an adjective unless it is understood to modify "necktie," as in "dark, blue necktie" (a necktie that is both dark and blue, whatever that means).

The difference would be clearer if we used "light" indeed of "dark."

*a light blue necktie*
The adverb "light" modifies the adjective "blue."  The necktie is light blue in color.

*a light, blue necktie*
Both "light" and "blue" are adjectives modifying "necktie."  The necktie is blue in color and light in weight.


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## Giordano Bruno

"Ah, bitter chill it was,
The owl for all its feathers was acold
the hare ran limping through the frozen grass.
And numb were the beadsman's fingers as he told the rosary...."

Keats.  St Agnes Eve.


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## cuchuflete

The grammarian floated in a pool of _pale green scum._

Pale is not an adverb modifying scum or grammarian.  It is an adjective modifying green.
Pale green is a color tone.  It is distinct from racing green, hunting green, light green, dark green
and envious green, among other greens.   Pale green modifies whatever noun follows it.  This construction may (or may not....haven't thought about it yet) be peculiar to colors.  The fire engine red truck was in the toy box.
Fire engine red is a color.   See the thread from a few days ago that discussed nouns used to modify nouns
"attributively".  Then apply that color name to a noun, like truck.  There is no adverb in sight.  The adverbs left with Elvis.  Now imagine a haberdasher's nightmare, an electric blue dinner jacket.  Is electric an adverb?  No more so than dark, in dark orange necktie, or dark purple stain, or deep, indeep red flush of embarrassment.

If there is still lurking doubt, buy a box of crayons, and look at the color names.  Nearly every color has an adjective that forms part of the name of the color of an individual crayon.  Hence, you have a box full of __________(adj.) ___________(basic color name)s.  Bright red, deep green, dark brown etc. are the names of the crayon colors.  Then pick a crayon and draw a line, straight or squiggly.  The line is a _Adjective + color name + line.  _There are no adverbs.  

None of the above makes it certain that bitter is an adverb or an adjective.  That depends on whether you read it as bitter (adjective) or as an idiomatically shortened form of bitterly (adverb).  I'm off to drink my dark brown liquid caffeine.  Dark describes brown, dark brown and liquid describe caffeine.


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## .   1

What a most wonderful and eloquent reply.
Is it not amazing how much meaning can be imbued by word association.
I am guessing that the pool is exceedingly shallow.



cuchuflete said:


> I'm off to drink my dark brown liquid caffeine. Dark describes brown, dark brown and liquid describe caffeine.


I do hope that you do not drink more than 10 grams or so of this liquid caffine or you will be rapidly dispatched with eyes wide shut.

.,,


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## elroy

cuchuflete said:


> The grammarian floated in a pool of _pale green scum._
> 
> Pale is not an adverb modifying scum or grammarian. It is an adjective modifying green.


 This is illogical.  An adjective modifies a noun or a pronoun.  It cannot modify another adjective.  We agree that "pale" modifies "green," but because "green" is already an adjective, any word modifying it has to be an adverb by definition.  I have yet to see a reference book that states that adjectives can modify other adjectives.

Yes, the crayon box is full of adjective nouns, because in that context the names of the colors are nouns, so the words modifying them are adjectives.  When the colors themselves are adjectives, the words modifying them are adverbs.

As I said above, the part of speech a word is depends only on its function within a particular sentence.  There is nothing innately adjectival or adverbial about any one word in isolation.

This is relevant to the discussion about "bitter" because "bitter," like "dark," is usually an adjective but can function adverbially in certain contexts.


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## JamesM

elroy said:
			
		

> I have yet to see a reference book that states that adjectives can modify other adjectives.


 
Being of elroy's persuasion in this matter, I think this is a good point.  Can anyone provide a reference that describes one of an adjective's features to be the ability to modify another adjective?


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## gaer

cuchuflete said:


> The grammarian floated in a pool of _pale green scum._
> 
> Pale is not an adverb modifying scum or grammarian. It is an adjective modifying green.


This is all according to various definitions, and any one of us might pick one definition or another.

When you speak of colors, I agree: pale green is a color. Green is the color. Here it is a noun. Pale is an adjective. No problem.

Add scum. Green scum. Green is now an adjective. How do you want to analyze "pale" now in "pale green scum"? Well, you can simply say that "pale green" is the same as "pale-green", a more complicated color name. But I certainly see logic in describing "pale" as an adverb here. (I'm not going to lose any sleep over it if others disagree.) 


> Fire engine red is a color.


Same problem: do we consider it as "fire-engine-red"? Or "fire-engine red"?

Let's say I have a pale blue tie and a fire engine red tie. Let's assume that I have the fire engine red tie on right now, in case someone shoots me for an incorrect grammatical analysis. It may hide the sight of blood. 

In my opinion, "bitter", "pale" and "fire engine" all fall into a similar sub-classification in the grammatical area of "things that don't want to be conveniently analyzed".

Why else do we need a label such as "nouns used to modify nouns attributively"? To me that is a very confusing way of saying that sometimes "nouns" don't act like nouns. They masquerade as something else.

"Fire engine red" really means a "fire-engine-like red". Red the color of a fire engine.

And that brings up what to me seems like the most important question of all: at what point do grammatical labels become silly because they no longer make any sense? 

Gaer


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## .   1

gaer said:


> And that brings up what to me seems like the most important question of all: at what point do grammatical labels become silly because they no longer make any sense?


Just about... wait for it...Now!

.,,


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## GregLee

. said:


> To follow the lead of McCawley you would be able to describe the necktie as being a dark necktie dark blue in colour ...


No, because in McCawley's analysis "dark" does not modify "necktie".  It only modifies "blue".  The analysis is this: the adjective "dark" modifies the noun "blue" and the adjective "blue" modifies the noun "necktie".  "Blue" is simultaneously a noun and an adjective.  Most would say this is not possible, which is what makes McCawley's proposal interesting and implausible.

But, as I remarked, it should be possible to tell whether it is right.  It makes the very straightforward prediction that the expected "-ly" in this type of construction will be missing only when the following word has an ambiguous part of speech.


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## .   1

GregLee said:


> But, as I remarked, it should be possible to tell whether it is right. It makes the very straightforward prediction that the expected "-ly" in this type of construction will be missing only when the following word has an ambiguous part of speech.


This must be a regional thing.  The region of 'it's all Greek to me'.

.,,


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## cuchuflete

elroy said:


> This is illogical.  An adjective modifies a noun or a pronoun.  It cannot modify another adjective.  We agree that "pale" modifies "green," but because "green" is already an adjective, any word modifying it has to be an adverb by definition.  I have yet to see a reference book that states that adjectives can modify other adjectives.
> 
> Yes, the crayon box is full of adjective nouns, because in that context the names of the colors are nouns, so the words modifying them are adjectives.  When the colors themselves are adjectives, the words modifying them are adverbs.
> 
> As I said above, the part of speech a word is depends only on its function within a particular sentence.  There is nothing innately adjectival or adverbial about any one word in isolation.
> 
> This is relevant to the discussion about "bitter" because "bitter," like "dark," is usually an adjective but can function adverbially in certain contexts.



Mr. Spok/spock is illogical.

Scum is a noun.  No dispute, yet.

Scum is modified or described by a something.  If the something is green, we agree that green is
an adjective.  Still no argument.  Then we modify green, to describe an attribute it has.
That makes it seem like a color name, or as has been pointed out, a noun acting adjectively.
Therefore a word modifying that noun, green, is a......

What do grammar books say that adverbs do?  

They modify other words to  "typically express some relation of place, time, manner, attendant circumstance, degree, cause, inference, result, condition, exception, concession, purpose, or means."  Does pale do this?  You could take a deep swig of grammarians' necter, and declare that it expresses the degree of greenness of green.  Or you could apply common sense, and say that it associates an attribute to green, as adjectives often do to nouns.  

Here is where grammarians' language logic goes all to hell in a handbasket:  (1) Start by thinking of blue necktie as something immutable, in which blue is a modifier for necktie, and therefore must always and forever be an adjective when it precedes necktie.  (2) look at "blue necktie" with a word in front of it, and declare that if that word modifies "blue", it must logically be an adverb.

The alternative is to begin with the entire three word grouping of dark +blue +necktie, and see how these three words work together.  The necktie is a shade of blue.  What shade? Dark blue.
Has blue started acting darkly?  Hardly.  Blue is the name of a color, and dark blue is the name of a color.  <dark blue> modifies necktie.  Dark has no adverbial characteristics when it is used to modify a color name.  

Consider fire hydrant.  Fire is a noun, acting as an adjective to describe hydrant.  Blue is a noun, a color's name, that acts likewise to distinguish one necktie from another, which is pond scum green. 
Is "pond scum" an adverb?  No.   If we put the word "necktie" after "pond scum green", does that magically convert "pond scum" into an adverb?  No.   If we run the pond scum green water rapidly from the grammar pool through the fire hydrant, will it make a word in this sentence—other than "rapidly"—an adverb?


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## cuchuflete

This may help a little:



> *What is the difference between an attributive noun and an adjective?*
> 
> An *attributive noun* (also called noun premodifier) is a noun functioning as a modifier, usually as an adjective.  An *attributive noun* may itself be a compound noun or noun phrase, in which case it is usually hyphenated. ... Please note that an *attributive noun* is also defined as a noun that modifies another noun, such as "leather handbag" or "stone artifact." Nouns used in this way are sometimes said to be *adjectives* or to behave like *adjectives*.


source

If the stone in "stone artifact" is smooth, that does not make smooth an adverb.


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## cuchuflete

Given my agreement with Elroy that McCawley is "whacky", even though he appears to agree that nouns can function as adjectives, what's my beef with him?



> ... he claims "blue" functions simultaneously as a noun (being modified by the adjective "dark") and as an adjective (modifying the noun "necktie").



I differ with "simultaneously".  Blue is a noun, but only in theory.  It behaves attributively as an adjective in the phrase "dark blue necktie".  

Petty detail, perhaps, but why confuse things needlessly by proposing that a word is round and square at the same time?


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## JamesM

cuchuflete said:


> This may help a little:
> 
> source
> 
> If the stone in "stone artifact" is smooth, that does not make smooth an adverb.


 
Well, that's the question, isn't it.  Your reference doesn't actually get to the point in the discussion where we now find ourselves. It names "stone" as a noun functioning as an adjective. 

The question lies one step beyond that: what do you call a word that modifies a word which is functioning as an adjective? I call it an adverb, and I haven't seen anything yet from a textbook or reference book which says otherwise.


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## GregLee

cuchuflete said:


> Blue is the name of a color, and dark blue is the name of a color.  <dark blue> modifies necktie.  Dark has no adverbial characteristics when it is used to modify a color name.
> 
> Consider fire hydrant.  Fire is a noun, acting as an adjective to describe hydrant.  Blue is a noun, a color's name, that acts likewise to distinguish one necktie from another, which is pond scum green.


I think in effect you propose here that "dark blue" is a compound word, as "fire hydrant" is.  But there are a couple of problems with that. (1) "dark blue" does not have the peculiar stress on the first element found in many compounds (such as "fire hydrant").  (2) "very dark blue necktie" is grammatical, with "very" modifying "dark", but compounds are made up of two words (possibly themselves compound), and "very dark" is neither a compound nor a word.  So how can "very dark" and "blue" be combined to make a compound?


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## cuchuflete

JamesM said:


> Well, that's the question, isn't it.  Your reference doesn't actually get to the point in the discussion where we now find ourselves. It names "stone" as a noun functioning as an adjective.
> 
> The question lies one step beyond that: what do you call a word that modifies a word which is functioning as an adjective? I call it an adverb, and I haven't seen anything yet from a textbook or reference book which says otherwise.



I don't read enough grammar books to know whether they address this sort of construction, or what they might called it, but your question is a very good one.  It presupposes an answer by saying "...a word which is functioning as an adjective".   Suppose you come at the same thing by calling that word an attributive noun?  I wonder if we aren't backing into a classification.


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## cuchuflete

GregLee said:


> I think in effect you propose here that "dark blue" is a compound word, as "fire hydrant" is.  But there are a couple of problems with that. (1) "dark blue" does not have the peculiar stress on the first element found in many compounds (such as "fire hydrant").  (2) "very dark blue necktie" is grammatical, with "very" modifying "dark", but compounds are made up of two words (possibly themselves compound), and "very dark" is neither a compound nor a word.  So how can "very dark" and "blue" be combined to make a compound?



I think in effect that you propose that I propose that "dark blue" is a compound word.   I don't think so.  I have said that "dark blue" describes the color of a necktie.   If you wish to call that "strawman", in order to point out that the "strawman" has gravy on his very dark blue necktie, you are arguing with yourself.  

You may call "dark blue" by any name, and it will still describe the necktie, and do so free of adverbs.  If you put a gun to my head and ask me what I would call "dark blue", I suppose I would just shrug, take a deep breath, and call it a noun phrase, with the noun phrase behaving attributively, as if it were an adjective.


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## emma42

A noun functioning as an adjective or an attributive noun must surely be, in that instance, an adjective.  If it looks like an adjective, smells like an adjective and behaves like an adjective, it's an adjective, in that particular instance.  And a word that modifies an adjective is an adverb.

I do see the logic in both arguments, and I suspect that we are all right.  And I'm not  saying that to avoid an  argument.  Heaven forfend!


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## cuchuflete

I will soon find the link to the thread we had a few days back, started by Lazarus1907, to ask about nouns used to modify nouns.   None of the sources cited in that thread came out and called nouns used to modify other nouns
"adjective".  They all danced around, using terms such as "attributive", "acting as an adjective" and so forth.
It may be that the professionals are not certain what naming conventions to use.

Here it is:

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=362791


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## emma42

I suspect you are right, Mr Cuchuflete.


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## .   1

emma42 said:


> I suspect you are right, Mr Cuchuflete.


He is a well known habitual offender in that area.

.,,


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## emma42

Don't encourage him.  He needs taking down a peg or two, if you ask me.


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## .   1

With the odd id that he possesses I suspect that you would need a reinforced crowbar to attempt that.
I am sure that you would be left bitter cold and hungry eating colder crow from the failed attempt.

.,,


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## cuchuflete

Psssssssst!  Somebody call a moderator.  The kids are getting unruly and off-topic.


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## .   1

. said:


> I am sure that you would be left *bitter cold *and hungry eating colder crow from the failed attempt.
> .,,


 


cuchuflete said:


> Psssssssst! Somebody call a moderator. The kids are getting unruly and off-topic.


Please note the segue. We are well back on track. 

.,,


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## cuchuflete

As we have taken this thread into some of the darker corners of grammar, please continue over here:  Adjectives and nouns


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