# much less worse



## duvija

In Public Radio they were discussing a problem with housing. The interviewer asked about the situation, and the visitor said (I'm inserting the dialogue)
- Last year, it was awful
- And what about now?
- Oh, it's much less worse...

(Let me add for people not living in the US, that Public Radio is very careful in the use of language)
I'm not asking for grammaticality judgments. I think we'll agree it's not exactly perfect. Yet, for some reason, I find it emphatic enough to allow for those words.

Other possible answers:
It's better (too weak, and no empathy, among other problems)
It's slightly better (ok, but ...)
It's not as bad... (still not strong enough)
It's not that bad...

Do you agree that 'much less worse' could be acceptable?
The problem is not 'much less' - I've heard it many times. In Spanish, 'mucho menos' is fine. ("Ahora voy mucho menos al cine" - it implies I used to go a lot, but less so now)

The problem is with "Less worse" - in Spanish, we would say 'menos malo', and not 'menos peor'. I think no one would say 'ahora, la situación de la vivienda es mucho menos peor'

Any comments?
Thank you


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## aloofsocialite

I think I understand why it sounds strange to you.  I think there's a tendency in English to say things in the affirmative, so "X is much less worse..." sounds a little odd.  I don't think it's incorrect and it's true that plenty of people say it, though I think the inclination for a lot of people would be to say "it's much better than...", or some variation of that.

That's my opinion, anyway!


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## Bevj

I don't think that 'much less worse' is correct; in the same way, 'much less better' or 'much more better' are also incorrect.
I think that in your example, to keep the negative sense I would say 'It's not nearly as bad'


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## aloofsocialite

Bevj said:


> I don't think that 'much less worse' is correct; in the same way, 'much less better' or 'much more better' are also incorrect.
> I think that in your example, to keep the negative sense I would say 'It's not nearly as bad'



I think you're right.  It sounds strange in the same way that "much more better" sounds (well, more than _sounds_) grammatically incorrect.


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## LovableJim

"Less worse" and "less better" are incorrect because "better" and "worse" are comparative adverbs, not adjectives. As you say, it is exactly the same as "peor" and "mejor" in Spanish in that respects. You only need to say "much better" or "much worse".


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## blairgo

LovableJim said:


> "Less worse" and "less better" are incorrect because "better" and "worse" are comparative adverbs, not adjectives. As you say, it is exactly the same as "peor" and "mejor" in Spanish in that respects. You only need to say "much better" or "much worse".


Yes, i think so


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## jrbbopp

I agree with Bevj that "much more better" is incorrect, because the "more" is already included in "better", and is therefore redundant; it's the same as saying "much more greener" or "much more more interesting".  As for "much less worse", I would have said "It's not nearly as bad".

As to LovableJim's comments, I must respectfully disagree: better and worse can be adverbs, but also adjectives: If I say "this car is better than that one", better is referring to the car and is therefore an adjective.  They can be adverbs, too, but also ajectives.  But rather than "less better/worse" it would be "not (quite) as good/bad", again, adjectives or adverbs, depending on what they're modifying (This car isn't as good as that one, this car runs better than that one)


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## LovableJim

Ah yes, you're right, and thank you for the "respectfully" 

I suppose the way to think about it is, like in Spanish where "peor" stands in for "más malo", "worse" stands in for "more bad", so if you said "much less worse" what you're saying is "much less more bad" or "mucho menos más malo", which makes no sense.


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## jrbbopp

There Jim, I totally agree, just like "much more better" makes no sense for meaning "much more more good".


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## FromPA

"Much less worse" makes no grammatical sense, but it is a useful phrase in that it conveys a very specific meaning that is missing from all the alternatives. It means that things are still very bad, although things were even worse before. "Not as bad" sort of means the same thing, but it has an optimistic sense of improvement to it, whereas "much less worse" conveys continued pessimism.


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## duvija

FromPA said:


> "Much less worse" makes no grammatical sense, but it is a useful phrase in that it conveys a very specific meaning that is missing from all the alternatives. It means that things are still very bad, although things were even worse before. "Not as bad" sort of means the same thing, but it has an optimistic sense of improvement to it, whereas "much less worse" conveys continued pessimism.


 
Thank you FromPA. That was my original understanding of the reason for using it (pragmatic, not semantic). 
I just wanted to double check with native speakers of English (even if once I received a button from my colleagues, saying "Honorary native speaker. Allowed to use puns"). But one never becomes a native speaker...


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## Spug

FromPA said:


> "Much less worse" makes no grammatical sense, but it is a useful phrase in that it conveys a very specific meaning that is missing from all the alternatives.



You're right about the grammar, but I don't see how a completely ungrammatical phrase can convey a meaning that grammatically correct language cannot.

There seem to be plenty of alternatives... "not nearly as bad"... "quite a bit better"... and I'm sure we could come up with several others that convey the intended meaning.

"Much less worse" simply sounds awful to me, even though I can figure out what it means.

Saludos...


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## goose123

Apparently people do say "less worse" ( someone complained about it in the paper a few weeks ago), but I've never heard it; I always assumed it was one of those Americanisms that doesn't make any sense (like "I could care less" instead of "I couldn't care less"). Everyone on here has restored my confidence in citizens of the United States - ¡gracias!


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## FromPA

Spug said:


> You're right about the grammar, but I don't see how a completely ungrammatical phrase can convey a meaning that grammatically correct language cannot.
> 
> There seem to be plenty of alternatives... "not nearly as bad"... "quite a bit better"... and I'm sure we could come up with several others that convey the intended meaning.
> 
> "Much less worse" simply sounds awful to me, even though I can figure out what it means.
> 
> Saludos...


 
After thinking about it, I think ¨much less bad¨ conveys the same meaning.


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## duvija

OK, so 'much less worse' - as said by a native speaker of English - is it an error? or a mental typo? or spoken without thinking?, or ...?

I assume if this had been said by a non-native, you would have been immediately corrected him/her, no?

How do you call this type of 'mistakes'?


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## LovableJim

duvija said:


> OK, so 'much less worse' - as said by a native speaker of English - is it an error? or a mental typo? or spoken without thinking?, or ...?
> 
> I assume if this had been said by a non-native, you would have been immediately corrected him/her, no?
> 
> How do you call this type of 'mistakes'?



Duvija, for me it is an actual mistake, and ungrammatical. Others might disagree!


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## FromPA

duvija said:


> OK, so 'much less worse' - as said by a native speaker of English - is it an error? or a mental typo? or spoken without thinking?, or ...?
> 
> I assume if this had been said by a non-native, you would have been immediately corrected him/her, no?
> 
> How do you call this type of 'mistakes'?


 
I think this is an error that only a native would make.  Sometimes you can create an effect by saying something ungrammatical (e.g., "you ain't seen nothing yet"), and that's something I wouldn't expect from a non-native speaker.


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## duvija

FromPA said:


> I think this is an error that only a native would make. Sometimes you can create an effect by saying something ungrammatical (e.g., "you ain't seen nothing yet"), and that's something I wouldn't expect from a non-native speaker.


 

(there ain't no cure for love)
As an aside, one of my professors used to say: as long as I present my credentials, and people know I'm a professor of linguistics with tenure, I can be cute and say "I ain't goin today"

Perfect! thank you all


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## k-in-sc

Note that if this was said by someone being interviewed on public radio, the person presumably was not a journalist and their comments were unscripted. This is a mistake of the sort you might make when speaking "off the cuff."


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## duvija

k-in-sc said:


> Note that if this was said by someone being interviewed on public radio, the person presumably was not a journalist and their comments were unscripted. This is a mistake of the sort you might make when speaking "off the cuff."


 
He was, actually, a journalist. But this was spoken and as far as I know, the guy is a writer. It wasn't scripted, but he knew how to speak, and that's why I found it so strange. True: this is a 'mistake' that only a native speaker is allowed to make.


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## k-in-sc

Hmm, yeah, maybe he said it tongue in cheek in that case ...


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## blairgo

LovableJim said:


> Duvija, for me it is an actual mistake, and ungrammatical. Others might disagree!



Yes, i agree with you


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## Forero

I think the speaker hesitated to say "much less bad", and having already said "much less", he changed "bad" to "worse".

For some reason we avoid saying "less bad" though "menos malo" seems perfectly natural. "Menos mal" is even harder to translate:

_-Sólo hay verduras, y no me gustan las verduras. Ah, menos mal que hay postre.
-There are only vegetables here, and I don't like vegetables. Oh, less badly there's dessert. _¿_Less badly_?I would opt for something like _well at least_.

My "translation" of the offending sentence: _Oh, it's much improved now.
_


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## duvija

Forero said:


> "Menos mal" is even harder to translate:
> 
> _-Sólo hay verduras, y no me gustan las verduras. Ah, menos mal que hay postre._
> _-There are only vegetables here, and I don't like vegetables. Oh, less badly there's dessert. _¿_Less badly_?I would opt for something like _well at least_.
> 
> My "translation" of the offending sentence: _Oh, it's much improved now._


 
I agree with you, in the sense that the speaker 'pained himself in a linguistic corner', as someone I know used to say. But I'm not sure if your translation isn't too optimistic. I guess he wanted to say vaguely 'it's slightly better now, but nevertheless horrible'. I'm afraid 'much improved' is too good for the disaster is still is. Don't you? There seems to be a continuuum between 'worse' and 'best'.

And you're also right about 'menos mal', and the impossibility of translating it literally. Maybe from 'al menos hay postre'. I like your 'at least'.


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## k-in-sc

To me the "real" way to say "much less worse" is "not nearly as bad."
"At least there's dessert" 
Or
"Good thing there's dessert"


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## findingraichu

I myself say "much more/less good/bad".
It's grammatically correct, and works in both languages


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## Forero

findingraichu said:


> I myself say "much more/less good/bad".
> It's grammatically correct, and works in both languages


_Less bad_ may be fine, but _more bad_?


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## mirifica

Bonjour,

Nous avons la même construction en français : 'bien moins pire' mais elle est considérée comme incorrecte. Elle a une connotation humoristique.


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## k-in-sc

"More bad"!? Hahaha, it is to laugh


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## Spug

findingraichu said:


> I myself say "much more... good/bad".
> It's grammatically correct, and works in both languages



You're joking, right?


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## Oceanotti

FromPA said:


> I think this is an error that only a native would make.  Sometimes you can create an effect by saying something ungrammatical (e.g., "you ain't seen nothing yet"), and that's something I wouldn't expect from a non-native speaker.



In Spain you can give some cuteness to your words by saying _"más peor"_ or _"menos peor"_ sometimes, even though it is absolutely wrong grammatically. But I agree that you shoud better make clear to your audience that your command of the language is higher than that. Anyway, if the theme were housing, as in the original query, I guess that as we are so used to hearing the phrase "it is worse" repeatedly, some of us may thank a wink like "it is less worse".





Forero said:


> "Menos mal" is even harder to translate_._



In this case _"mal"_ is a noun, not an adjective, and _"menos mal"_  should be translated as "thank goodness" or an equivalent expression  ("at least" could work, but in my opinion it does not convey the sense of  strong relief in the same way).


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