# æ and ɛ in words



## AmEStudent

Are there any rules to help distinguish which words contain æ (as in bad) or ɛ (as in bed) in the middle?


----------



## Hermione Golightly

There are no rules because pronunciation can vary from country to country and from region to region. That's the purpose of the phonetic alphabet/s, to help with standard pronunciation.

Usually the context makes understanding clear, even if the pronunciation is 'off'.

If I heard the words 'bad' and 'bed' spoken separately in isolation, I might find it hard to know which was meant.

Hermione


----------



## AmEStudent

What if you were to say bad bed?


----------



## JamesM

In my accent "bad" and "bed" sound very different, as different as "fad" and "fed" or "had" and "head".  I'm not sure what the æ sound is.  Perhaps we don't use it in these circumstances in western American English.  The "a" in "bad, had, fad" is bright and broad in my accent (although not as bright and broad as a New York accent).  It would not be easily confused with the "eh" sound in "bed,head, fed".


----------



## Loob

AmEStudent said:


> Are there any rules to help distinguish which words contain æ (as in bad) or ɛ (as in bed) in the middle?


I'm not sure I understand your question, AmES. What sort of 'rules' are you looking for - rules to do with spelling?


----------



## AmEStudent

Loob said:


> I'm not sure I understand your question, AmES. What sort of 'rules' are you looking for - rules to do with spelling?



Rules to know when to use which vowel.


----------



## Loob

AmEStudent said:


> Rules to know when to use which vowel.


I'm still puzzled, I'm afraid.

Do you mean something like "if a word consists of _consonant+vowel+consonant_ and the vowel is written 'a' then the sound is /æ/"?


----------



## AmEStudent

Loob said:


> I'm still puzzled, I'm afraid.
> 
> Do you mean something like "if a word consists of _consonant+vowel+consonant_ and the vowel is written 'a' then the sound is /æ/"?



I mean how am I supposed to know that the "a" in a word is an |ɛ| and not |æ|, without relying on hearing? Is there any rule about the consonants that precede or follow the letter?


----------



## Loob

AmEStudent said:


> I mean how am I supposed to know that the "a" in a word is an |ɛ| and not |æ|, without relying on hearing? Is there any rule about the consonants that precede or follow the letter?


I can't, off the top of my head, think of any words in which an "a" is pronounced /ɛ/.  Do you have any examples?


----------



## AmEStudent

Loob said:


> I can't, off the top of my head, think of any words in which an "a" is pronounced /ɛ/.  Do you have any examples?



Any, scary, many, sedative, some dictionaries also include catch, _a_rrogant, p_a_rasol, either as primary or secondary pronunciations. I'm confused.


----------



## JamesM

Those are good examples.  I don't think I would include"sedative", where the "a" sounds like a schwa to me, or "catch" in my accent, although I've heard American accents where "catch" is similar to "ketch."

I don't know of any rule.  Both spelling and pronunciation are very inconsistent in English.


----------



## JudeMama

JamesM said:


> I don't know of any rule. Both spelling and pronunciation are very inconsistent in English.


 This is very true-- earlier in the thread an example of "*bed*" vs. "*bad*" was used-- two words that sound quite different when I say them.
However, sometimes in the accent I hear every day, it is difficult to distinguish between "*pen*" and "*pin*".


----------



## Loob

AmEStudent said:


> Any, scary, many, sedative, some dictionaries also include catch, _a_rrogant, p_a_rasol, either as primary or secondary pronunciations. I'm confused.


I'll grant you _any_ and _many_, as odd-ball exceptions.

But 
- the vowel sound in _scary_ is not /ɛ/ but /ɛɹ/, being coloured by the 'r' even in non-rhotic varieties;
- the 'a' in _sedative_ is a schwa;
- _catch, arrogant, parasol_ all have /æ/.

That said, I think I understand what's confusing you. There are accents of English in which the vowel sounds of _marry/mary/merry_ have fallen together; there are accents in which /æ/ might sound (to someone not used to them) very like [ɛ]. Wiki has an interesting chart giving IPA transcriptions for various dialects of English. But the key point to note is that every variety of English is consistent in how it keeps phonemes distinct: if a particular variety pronounces /æ/ as [ɛ], then it will always pronounce /æ/ as [ɛ] - it won't do so in some words and not in others.

You, yourself, need to do the same thing: pronounce /æ/ etc consistently, however you pronounce it.


----------



## AmEStudent

Well, dictionaries should really be more consistent then. 

Thank you all for your help.


----------



## JamesM

AmEStudent said:


> Well, dictionaries should really be more consistent then.
> 
> Thank you all for your help.


 
Wouldn't it depend on the country in which the dictionary was published?  I imagine they are fairly consistent within one variety of English.


----------



## majlo

Yes, they _are _consistent. At least in Europe where, to my experience, dictionaries usually provide phonemic, not phonetic, transcriptions of BrE (RP), and sometimes optional AmE variants.

As for rules in English pronunciation, there aren't any fixed ones, I'm afraid. Fortunately.


----------



## AmEStudent

JamesM said:


> Wouldn't it depend on the country in which the dictionary was published?  I imagine they are fairly consistent within one variety of English.



Mmmm...I've got 2 UK-published and 2 US-published dictionaries, all for AE and they are inconsistent (about this issue at least), but not necessarily based on the country where they were published.


----------



## JamesM

You have two UK-published dictionaries for American English?


----------



## AmEStudent

JamesM said:


> You have two UK-published dictionaries for American English?



Yeah. I mean from two UK publishing companies. Though one's completely AE and the other has both varieties.


----------



## Forero

Some more exceptions: _pall mall_, in AmE pronounced "pell mell", and _marshmallow_, which I have only ever heard pronounced as if it were "marsh mellow".

Apparently _l_ and _r_ are the main consonants that turn /æ/ into /ɛ/.


----------



## JamesM

AmEStudent said:


> Yeah. I mean from two UK publishing companies. Though one's completely AE and the other has both varieties.


 
I think I would tend to trust a British English dictionary printed in the UK and an American English dictionary printed in the U.S. rather than trying to mix the two. 

Are you saying, for example, that the two American English dictionaries give different pronunciations for the _same_ word? That would really surprise me. Can you give the sources and an example of a word that has different pronunciations in the two AE dictionaries from the U.S.?


----------



## Loob

Forero said:


> Some more exceptions: _pall mall_, in AmE pronounced "pell mell", and _marshmallow_, which I have only ever heard pronounced as if it were "marsh mellow".


Interesting, Forero: both _pall mall_ and _marshmallow_ would have /æ/ in BrE....

Here's an OED comment on the [] pronunciation of _pall mall_:
apparently influenced by PELL-MELL _adv., adj., _and_ n._ (compare forms s.v.).
_N.E.D._ (1904) gives the pronunciation as (pel,mel) ​


----------



## AmEStudent

JamesM said:


> I think I would tend to trust a British English dictionary printed in the UK and an American English dictionary printed in the U.S. rather than trying to mix the two.



Yeah that's the way I prioritize them too, but for instance in this case some American dictionaries use æ in "catch" while using ɛ in "parasol", while some of the british didn't. It's just a mess and it's hard for me to rely only on dictionaries from one country. Besides, the English ones are from pretty reputable companies so...


----------



## mplsray

Loob said:


> I'll grant you _any_ and _many_, as odd-ball exceptions.
> 
> But
> - the vowel sound in _scary_ is not /ɛ/ but /ɛɹ/, being coloured by the 'r' even in non-rhotic varieties;
> - the 'a' in _sedative_ is a schwa;
> - _catch, arrogant, parasol_ all have /æ/.



The Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary has /ɛ/ as well in _catch, arrogant_ (you have to find the pronunciation of the first syllable under the entry "arrogance"), and _parasol._

I don't think that it's simply a matter of the phoneme /æ/ being realized as [æ] in some dialects and [ɛ] in others. For example, in my speech I say [ɛ] in _tear, Cher, pair, merry, Mary, marry, arrogant_, and _parasol,_ but [æ] in _catch._ (I grant your point that [ɛ] can be colored by a following [r].)


----------



## Loob

mplsray said:


> For example, in my speech I say [ɛ] in _tear, Cher, pair, merry, Mary, marry, arrogant_, and _parasol,_ but [æ] in _catch._ (I grant your point that [ɛ] can be colored by a following [r].)


You're a classic example of the _marry/mary/merry_ merger, Ray!


----------



## Everysing

AmEStudent said:


> Any, scary, many, sedative, some dictionaries also include catch, _a_rrogant, p_a_rasol, either as primary or secondary pronunciations. I'm confused.


The important part here is that there's no single "American" way to pronounce words, but there's a good deal of v_a_riation.

1. There are certain dialects that pronounce a number of spelled <a>'s with an [ɛ] sound before an r that is itself followed by a vowel. For example: parasol, arrogant, variation. This is known as the Mary-marry-merry merger, called so because the three words are pronounced the same. It's very common in the U.S. except in the East Coast, and it's very uncommon elsewhere (the U.K., Australia...).

2. There are certain dialects that "raise" the /æ/ before an n in all positions: western Canada, Florida, the southern Midwest...

3. There are dialects that pronounce the /æ/ in catch as [ɛ] as well.

Your dictionnary isn't really teaching you "English pronunciation" in the big picture, but rather the correct pronunciation of English in a particular dialect of American English.  I'd guess it's some form of southern Midwest English.


----------



## ToWhomItMayConcern

Everysing said:


> 2. There are certain dialects that "raise" the /æ/ before an n in all positions: western Canada, Florida, the southern Midwest...
> 3. There are dialects that pronounce the /æ/ in catch as [ɛ] as well.



That  "raised /æ/" is purely phonetic and has no phonemic implications whatsoever.  I mean, if you are a non-native speaker, you have to be aware of how that raised /æ/ is pronounced; but from a _phonemic_ standpoint, a "raised /æ/ before /n/ in all positions" doesn't mean a thing.  In fact, /æ/ is pronounced higher in the mouth before /n/ and /m/ in most of North America.  So what. It doesn't become any other phoneme.

It is wrong to say that the  /æ/ in catch is pronounced as [ɛ] in some dialects. It's just that the vowel in catch is /ɛ/ in those dialects--not /æ/.

Generally speaking, it's not true that /æ/ may become /ɛ/ before /l/: _Pall mall _and _marshmallow _are very rare exceptions.

Before /r/, however, the entire vowel system of North American English is completely different than it is before any other consonant.  In fact, I don't even believe that there is such a thing as a sequence of Vowel + /r/ in North American English.  I believe we only have r-colored diphthongs, as in "here," "there," "far," etc.


----------



## kalamazoo

I once had a conversation that from my point of view consisted of the following dialogue:

Person; Everyone here thinks my name is Mary
Me: I thought your name was Mary
Person. It's not Mary, it's Mary.

I was pretty puzzled by this until eventually I realized her name was "Merri."  In my Californian dialect, "Mary"and "Merri" were pronounced exactly the same.


----------



## Hermione Golightly

I once asked a young American man what his name was. He told me it was Poll. This sounded to me like the 'poll' in the girl's name Polly, Poll for short.
I asked him if he had said Poll. Yes, he replied, Poll.

I later commented to my daughter that Poll was a strange name, maybe it was short for Pollard or some unusual first name. "Oh mum!", she said, rolling her eyes, "It's not Poll - it's Paul!" 
In some American accents, 'Harry' sounds like 'hairy'. "What do you guys think of Prince Hairy?"



Hermione


----------



## pickarooney

There's a lot to be said for having straightforward vowels. I don't think there is a single pair of homophones in this thread which actually sound the same to me!


----------



## JudeMama

Forero said:


> Some more exceptions: _pall mall_, in AmE pronounced "pell mell", and _marshmallow_, which I have only ever heard pronounced as if it were "marsh mellow".


 
This may be a regional pronunciation-- I've never heard "pall mall" pronounced "pell mell" and I've often heard "marshmallow".


----------



## JudeMama

Everysing said:


> I'd guess it's some form of southern Midwest English.


I'm curious to know exactly what part of the US is the "southern Midwest".


----------



## JamesM

Forero said:


> Some more exceptions: _pall mall_, in AmE pronounced "pell mell".


 
I think of this as the other way around. "Give me a pack of Pall Malls" would have the "ah" sound in it and never the "eh" sound, in my experience.  I don't know if it is still true, but at one time it was pronounced "Pell Mell" in England.


----------



## ToWhomItMayConcern

I don't think I've ever heard "Pall Mall" in my life, so I was just going along for the ride.


----------



## JamesM

(I wonder if Pall Mall is even a brand of cigarette anymore.)


----------



## JudeMama

Apparently so:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pall_Mall_(cigarette)


----------



## Everysing

JudeMama said:


> I'm curious to know exactly what part of the US  is the "southern Midwest".


The U.S. Midwest not affected by either the Northern Cities Vowel Shift or Canadian raising (which naturally is not confined to Canada only).


ToWhomItMayConcern said:


> That  "raised /æ/" is purely phonetic and has no phonemic implications whatsoever.  I mean, if you are a non-native speaker, you have to be aware of how that raised /æ/ is pronounced; but from a _phonemic_ standpoint, a "raised /æ/ before /n/ in all positions" doesn't mean a thing.  In fact, /æ/ is pronounced higher in the mouth before /n/ and /m/ in most of North America.  So what. It doesn't become any other phoneme.


I'm not taking a phonemic standpoint, but a phonetic one, just as linguists themselves deal with raisings and lowerings, etc. I never said otherwise.


> It is wrong to say that the  /æ/ in catch is pronounced as [ɛ] in some dialects. It's just that the vowel in catch is /ɛ/ in those dialects--not /æ/.


That's a good point.


> Before /r/, however, the entire vowel system of North American English is completely different than it is before any other consonant.  In fact, I don't even believe that there is such a thing as a sequence of Vowel + /r/ in North American English.  I believe we only have r-colored diphthongs, as in "here," "there," "far," etc.


What do you say about words like "marrow"?


----------



## ToWhomItMayConcern

The problem with "Southern Midwest" is that it's not a term we normally use.

In fact, the "General American" accent is not  "a particular dialect of American English"; if anything, it can be defined negatively, as an accent devoid of regional features. In the U.S., speaking "without an accent" means "speaking with a General American accent."  



> What do you say about words like "marrow"?


Marrow is pronounced /'mer.o/ = /m/ + /er/ + /o/, where /er/ is the r-colored diphthong found in the word _air_.


----------



## languageGuy

ToWhomItMayConcern said:


> Marrow is pronounced /'mer.o/ = /m/ + /er/ + /o/, where /er/ is the r-colored diphthong found in the word _air_.


 
Hmmm.... that's not how it is pronounced here. We use [ae] for that word.


----------



## JamesM

languageGuy said:


> Hmmm.... that's not how it is pronounced here. We use [ae] for that word.


 
I'm still learning these IPA symbols. [ae] is the same sound as in "cat", correct? I would expect that pronunciation from the east coast but not from Missouri. I pronounce it the same way as ToWhomItMayConcern.



			
				ToWhomItMayConcern said:
			
		

> In fact, the "General American" accent is not "a particular dialect of American English"; if anything, it can be defined negatively, as an accent devoid of regional features. In the U.S., speaking "without an accent" means "speaking with a General American accent."


 
It's only "without an accent" to those who _also_ speak with that accent.


----------



## ToWhomItMayConcern

Yes, it used to be 
marry = /mæ.ri/  (similarly, marrow = /mæ.ro/)
merry = /mɛ.ri/

with /æ/ and /ɛ/, respectively, followed by heterosyllabic /r/ (an /r/ that begins the following syllable).

For most speakers of North American English, such sequences of /æ/ + /r/ or /ɛ/ + /r/ are no longer possible, and have been replaced by /er/ (the sound of the word _air_), so that _marry _and _merry_ have become homophonous with _Mary_.

Likewise, _hurry_ used to be /hʌ.ri/, with /ʌ/ being the vowel of _cup_.
In the speech of most North Americans, sequences of /ʌ/ + /r/ are no longer possible and have been replaced with /ɝ/, so that _hurry _rhymes with _furry._


----------



## languageGuy

Why are those sequences 'no longer possible'?  Is it genetics or social pressure or maybe legal reasons?

I feel like I violate all those rules; I hope I'm not in trouble.


----------



## ToWhomItMayConcern

I guess it's just sloppiness.


----------



## Forero

I use [ɛ] in _marry_, _merry_, and _Mary_ (and _marrow_).


----------



## kalamazoo

Who knows about "most" speakers but after years spent in the Eastern US, I can now hear the differences between Mary and Merry and between fairy and ferry, despite my California upbringing,although I don't necessarily always make the distinctions when I talk.  You got me on furry and hurry though!


----------



## ToWhomItMayConcern

Forero said:


> I use /ɛ/ in _marry_, _merry_, and _Mary_ (and _marrow_).



You mean, the phonetic quality of your vowel is [ɛ]?


----------



## Forero

ToWhomItMayConcern said:


> You mean, the phonetic quality of your vowel is [ɛ]?


Yes. I have corrected my post.


----------



## chifladoporlosidiomas

This is actually funny to read because in my "dialect" all of the above is thrown out the window. haha. Granted I speak three. haha.


----------



## Istriano

For General American (west of Mississippi River)
if it's spelled with an A, it's normally

/  æ /
*cat, catch, bag, sad, man*

exceptions to the rule: 
-before R: carry, Larry, square, Carol, Carrie
-rare words with an N to follow: any


if it's spelled with an E, it's normally
/ ɛ/
*dress, ketchup, beg*


Please notice regional differences:

1. c*a*tch with / ɛ/ in Canada, American Midwest and Pacific Northwest

2. b*a*g with / ɛ/ in Inland North and Back East, and parts of Canada too

3. g*e*t with /ɪ/ in American South and Back East

4. Northern Cities Vowel shift (Chicago, Detroit, Buffalo) where:
/  æ / is pronounced as [ ɛ]:  bad [bɛd], sad [sɛd], flash [flɛʃ]
/ ɛ/ is pronounced as [e]: bed [bed], said [sed], flesh [fleʃ ]
/ɑ/ is pronounced as [a] or [æ]: pod [pæd], mom [mæm]

5. Canadian/Californian Vowel shift where:
/  æ /is pronounced as [a](central unrounded vow.): sad [sad],wax [waks]
/ ɛ/ is pronounced as [æ]: Kelly [kæli], yellow [jæloʊ], dress [dræs]

So, people in Detroit or Buffalo NY pronounce* Ipod, impossible, crop *the same way Canadians and Californians pronounce *Ipad, impassable, crap*.


----------



## Istriano

mplsray said:


> The Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary has /ɛ/ as well in _catch, arrogant_ (you have to find the pronunciation of the first syllable under the entry "arrogance"), and _parasol._
> 
> I don't think that it's simply a matter of the phoneme /æ/ being realized as [æ] in some dialects and [ɛ] in others. For example, in my speech I say [ɛ] in _tear, Cher, pair, merry, Mary, marry, arrogant_, and _parasol,_ but [æ] in _catch._ (I grant your point that [ɛ] can be colored by a following [r].)


I like the newest MW Learner's Dictionary:

http://www.learnersdictionary.com/search/catch

 catch*Pronounced:*

  /ˈkætʃ,  ˈkɛtʃ/    *Function:*

 verb *Inflected forms:*

  catch·es*;*   caught /ˈkɑ*:*t/   catch·ing



[kɛtʃ] is Canadian and nonWestern US
[kætʃ] is WesternUS

The same is true of *bag *[bɛg] vs [bæg].


----------



## Istriano

Hermione Golightly said:


> I once asked a young American man what his name was. He told me it was Poll. This sounded to me like the 'poll' in the girl's name Polly, Poll for short.
> I asked him if he had said Poll. Yes, he replied, Poll.
> 
> I later commented to my daughter that Poll was a strange name, maybe it was short for Pollard or some unusual first name. "Oh mum!", she said, rolling her eyes, "It's not Poll - it's Paul!"
> In some American accents, 'Harry' sounds like 'hairy'. "What do you guys think of Prince Hairy?"
> 
> 
> 
> Hermione



In *cot/caught  Don/dawn, pol/Paul *merged dialects all these words have the same vowel, which is usually unrounded in the Western US, and rounded in Canada (with the exception of NewFoundland where the vowel is unrounded as in the American West).

So, questions like _do you pronounce Mall like Maul? _don't really make any sense.
It would be better to ask: _are Mall, moll, dall and doll (and pol and Paul) perfect rhymes in your dialect/accent?_ You can include_ collar/caller_ in it too.

The way British people pronounce *Paul *sounds very much like *Pole *to my ears, with that closed/raised rounded vowel: [po(ʊ)l]. I pronounce Paul as [pɑ*:*l], and it's a perfect rhyme with _mall/doll _[mɑ*:*l/dɑ*:*l].


----------



## sound shift

Istriano, my response to your comments is:

"Poll" and "Paul" don't rhyme in my pronunciation.
"Collar" and "caller" don't rhyme in my pronunciation.
"Pole" and "Paul" don't rhyme in my pronunciation (the lips are rounded for "Paul", but are not for "Pole").


----------



## Istriano

Wow, your pronunciation is very tricky, almost impossible for a foreigner to emulate.
No wonder most people here prefer good old Hollywood accent


----------



## sound shift

Istriano said:


> Wow, your pronunciation is very tricky, almost impossible for a foreigner to emulate.
> No wonder most people here prefer good old Hollywood accent


Not at all. If a foreigner spends enough time here, he/she soon picks it up. There are languages with far more phonemes than ours! If you cannot spend any time here, it's more difficult; only a good teacher can explain the differences between similar sounds.


----------



## ToWhomItMayConcern

Istriano said:


> 4. Northern Cities Vowel shift (Chicago, Detroit, Buffalo) where:
> /  æ / is pronounced as [ ɛ]:  bad [bɛd], sad [sɛd], flash [flɛʃ]
> / ɛ/ is pronounced as [e]: bed [bed], said [sed], flesh [fleʃ ]
> /ɑ/ is pronounced as [a] or [æ]: pod [pæd], mom [mæm]
> 
> 5. Canadian/Californian Vowel shift where:
> /  æ /is pronounced as [a](central unrounded vow.): sad [sad],wax [waks]
> / ɛ/ is pronounced as [æ]: Kelly [kæli], yellow [jæloʊ], dress [dræs]
> 
> So, people in Detroit or Buffalo NY pronounce* Ipod, impossible, crop *the same way Canadians and Californians pronounce *Ipad, impassable, crap*.



What you said is somewhat misleading. For starters, you are mixing up phonetic and phonological features.  People with the Northern Cities Shift have a short-A and a short-E just like everybody else; they only pronounce them a little differently, that's all. And by the way, _not_ in the way you suggested.

Bag is not pronounced _beg_ in Canada; it rather rhymes with _vague_. (long-A, not short-E).


----------



## Istriano

ToWhomItMayConcern said:


> What you said is somewhat misleading. For starters, you are mixing up phonetic and phonological features.



I am not.
I have indicated differences by using /  /  vs [ ].


----------



## ToWhomItMayConcern

Istriano said:


> I am not.
> I have indicated differences by using /  /  vs [ ].



I see your point, but I guess many (if not most) readers don't know the difference, and may be misled into thinking that those dialects have a different phonological system, which is not true. 

Furthermore, it's not true that, for a NCS speaker, /æ/ is [ɛ]. It can be anything from [æ:] to [æə] to [ɛ:] to [ɛə] to [eə] and even [ɪə]; it may very widely from speaker to speaker depending on the particular word or phonological environment, and even the speech of a single speaker is often inconsistent. 
Likewise, for those speakers /ɛ/ can be closer to [æ] or [ɜ] or both. It's never realized as [e].  
(It should be noted that in the Northern Cities as well as everywhere else in North America /æ/ is always somewhat longer than /ɛ/.)
Also, this change is still in progress, so it's doesn't make much sense to pick one particular vowel sound, say [Y], and postulate that NCS speakers realize /X/ as [Y].  It would be inaccurate, and misleading, since--phonologically speaking--those speakers pronounce the words _catch, marshmallow, _etc. just like everyone else in North America; this thread was about phonology, after all.

Similar considerations also apply to Canadian and Californian speakers, of course.


----------

