# Ossetic "god" ~ "cow"



## Phosphorus

Greetings,

What is the etymology of Ossetic "god" ~ "cow" (I am not sure about the correct spelling of the Ossetic entry)? Evidently it has something to do with common Iranian "gawa*" in the same sense, but I wonder what is exactly that final "-d"?

There is an obsolete word, "kawt", in a Persian to Kurdish dictionary for "maah" ~ "moon". The only possible etymologies that crosses my mind is Old Iranian "gawa*" ~ "cow" which has developed, through an esoteric significance, from "cow" to "moon" (both being symbols of evil, specially in Mithraism). Thus it might have something in common with Ossetic "god". Also I wonder if there is any example of a word originally meant "cow" turning into "moon", or the vice versa.

Thanks in advance.


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## fdb

The Ossetic word for ‘cow’ is (in the Iron dialect) хъуг /qug/, in the more archaic Digor dialect it is гъог /γog/, both with –g, not –d. They come from Iranian *gaw-aka-.


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## Phosphorus

fdb said:


> The Ossetic word for ‘cow’ is (in the Iron dialect) хъуг /qug/, in the more archaic Digor dialect it is гъог /γog/, both with –g, not –d. They come from Iranian *gaw-aka-.



My certain misconception professor. Many thanks for your correction.


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## Phosphorus

Professor I found the source in which I had bumped against the alleged Ossetic word. It's named "The Language of Yue-Chi or Indo-Scythians", by B. Laufer (Curator, Department of Anthropology, Museum of Natural History). In page 6, there is the following paragraph:

"It does not require much much sagacity to recognize in the transcription *g'iep, g'iev an Indo-European word and in particular one of Iranian characteristics, Avestan gav-, Middle Persian gav, go, New Persian gav, Armenian kov, Sanskrit gaav-. Above all, however, the Yue-ci form agrees closely, also in its vocalism, with Yazgulami ghew ("taureau") from "ghawa", recently disclosed by R. Gauthiot; Ossetian *gawd*, and Scythian *godi* (from **gowdi*). It is a Scytho-Iranian type of word."

What I get from the above is that it is suggesting an allegedly Ossetic "gawd" and Scythian "godi" in sense of "cow".


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## sotos

Phosphorus said:


> Also I wonder if there is any example of a word originally meant "cow" turning into "moon", or the vice versa.


The word "mooooon"  

Seriously, there are myths connecting the moon with the cow (and the sun with the bull). It wouldn't be surprising if this mythical (subconscious) connection is reflected in some languages.


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## ancalimon

Sumerian *gud* meaning *bull, ox* is a Turkic borrowing inside Sumerian.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/64297815/Osman-Nedim-Tuna-Sumer-ve-Turk-Dillerinin-Tarihi-İlgisi

This is Osman Nedim Tuna's work.

The pages 6,7,8 shows the published Turkic originated words that gained a "gutteral G sound" when they entered Sumerian from Proto-Tigris. These were proven as impeccable by the committee of experts that reviewed work of Tuna.

I don't know about Scythian godi. But maybe those words are related. There might have been some Proto-Scythians and the Sumerians might have borrowed these words from the Turkic speaking part of those Proto-Scythians.

And please don't miss this important part about Yuezhi~Tochar:

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/23Avars/AvarEthnonymEn.htm



> It is important to note, that to the ancient Tochars the German Indo-Europeists  assigned a peculiar Iranian language. The matter is that at the end of the 19th and the  beginning of the 20th centuries in the oases of the Eastern Turkistan (so called  Sintszyan) were found monuments in a special western-Iranian dialect. The German Türkologist in their translation  from the Sanskrit text to Uigur found, that the translation was done not directly  from Sanskrit, but through _Tohri_. On the basis of that message,  the other German scientists named these Persian texts “Tocharian” . “They  linked the Uigur word “_tohri_” with the name of the “Tochars”  people, who were witnessed by the ancients as living in Bactria... The term “Tocharian language” is lingering  until now, despite strong protests of many scientists” [Krauze В., 1959, 41, 44]. Here is evident at once the  break in the logic: the Uigur text does not say that _Tohri/Tochars_ spoke Persian, most likely they were  Türks, if the Uigurs took advantage of their language. Besides, we know that Tochars in the Central  Asia in antiquity were closely connected with the Sako-Massagets, who in the 5th-7th  centuries are known as Türkic nations among the Türkic Ephtalites and other Türks. M.Kashgarly  the Togars (Tochars) also lists as Türks. The root of the word “Tocharistan  has survived in the topo- and ethnonymy of the Uzbeks and Kazakhs” [Tolstova  L.C., 1978, 10]. The _Tochars_ actively participated in forming the Uzbeks.  Such a people as _Tochars_, greatly widespread (from the Eastern Europe  to the Central Asia), could not have gone Turkified so expeditiously, most likely  the Tochars from the very beginning were Türks.


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## fdb

Yes, gud means 'bull' in Sumerian. Which Turkish word does Mr Tuna think it is borrowed from?


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## ancalimon

It's on page 7.

UD

http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/re...ny=&method_any=substring&sort=proto&ic_any=on



> *Meaning:* "ox bull" | *Query method:* Match substring
> 
> Proto-Turkic: *ud
> Altaic etymology: Altaic etymology
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meaning: ox, bull
> Russian meaning: вол, бык
> Old Turkic: _ud_ (OUygh.)
> Karakhanid: _uδ_ (MK)
> Middle Turkic: _uj_ (Бор. Бад., Abush., Pav. C.)
> Uighur: _uj_
> Sary-Yughur: _ut_
> Oyrat: _uj_
> Kirghiz: _uj_
> Comments: EDT 34, ЭСТЯ 1, 572-573, Лексика 434-435 ( > MMong. _uj,_ Щербак 1997, 161).



There are many Turkic words like this which gained a guttural G sound in front of them starting from the end of page 6 and ending on page 8.


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## ancalimon

This *gud* meaning *bull* I think is related with the the word "*kudur*" meaning to become wild, to be enraged, to instigate, to become instigated, to goad.

Most probably this title was given to Kutrigurs (Kudur Ogur) who later became Bulgars (Pol Ogur).


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## fdb

Thank you for this. You know that you will have a lot of difficulty finding a Sumerologist who accepts that there is a connection of any sort between Turkic and Sumerian. To begin with, the Sumerians lived in southern Iraq while the ancient Turks lived to the North-East of China.


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## ancalimon

fdb said:


> Thank you for this. You know that you will have a lot of difficulty finding a Sumerologist who accepts that there is a connection of any sort between Turkic and Sumerian. To begin with, the Sumerians lived in southern Iraq while the ancient Turks lived to the North-East of China.



I said before on this forum; Tuna proved his work. It was several experts on the subject who found his work as impeccable.
If there is anyone who tried to disprove his work, I would actually love to see it.

Besides. I don't think people were that aware about who was who that far in the past. The fact that Tur was not an ethnic identity but the collective name given to people of Eurasia and Central Asia (most of which is named Turan geography) makes the assumption that Turks should be in North-East of China a bit baseless. I guess deep inside, Turk means something basic like "from Turan : comes from the Earth, sand" and there are every kind of people (Persians, Europeans) living in this geography.  What I mean is that Turk should not necessarily have a shape. Maybe (I think) it's simply a title for "common folk living around Urals, Asia, Eurasia, Siberia, etc..

Tuna says Sumerians borrowed these Turkic words and recorded them on stone tablets. I don't know whether they borrowed these words from people speaking Turkic or some other people who borrowed these words from Turks who were living elsewhere.


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## fdb

Phosphorus said:


> Professor I found the source in which I had bumped against the alleged Ossetic word. It's named "The Language of Yue-Chi or Indo-Scythians", by B. Laufer (Curator, Department of Anthropology, Museum of Natural History). In page 6, there is the following paragraph:
> 
> "It does not require much much sagacity to recognize in the transcription *g'iep, g'iev an Indo-European word and in particular one of Iranian characteristics, Avestan gav-, Middle Persian gav, go, New Persian gav, Armenian kov, Sanskrit gaav-. Above all, however, the Yue-ci form agrees closely, also in its vocalism, with Yazgulami ghew ("taureau") from "ghawa", recently disclosed by R. Gauthiot; Ossetian *gawd*, and Scythian *godi* (from **gowdi*). It is a Scytho-Iranian type of word."
> 
> What I get from the above is that it is suggesting an allegedly Ossetic "gawd" and Scythian "godi" in sense of "cow".



*Laufer was a fine scholar and his book The language of the Yüe-chi or Indo-Scythians, though old (it was published in 1917), is still worth reading. But I am really at a loss to know where he found “Ossetian gäwd”. As you know, Iranian g- becomes γ- in Digoron and q- in Iron. Consequently, initial g- occurs in Ossetic really only in loanwords.
* * By the way, there is the form gōg, from gaw-aka- (like Iron хъуг, Digoron гъог) also in early New Persian.*


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## Phosphorus

fdb said:


> *Laufer was a fine scholar and his book The language of the Yüe-chi or Indo-Scythians, though old (it was published in 1917), is still worth reading. But I am really at a loss to know where he found “Ossetian gäwd”. As you know, Iranian g- becomes γ- in Digoron and q- in Iron. Consequently, initial g- occurs in Ossetic really only in loanwords.
> *
> 
> * By the way, there is the form gōg, from gaw-aka- (like Iron хъуг, Digoron гъог) also in early New Persian.
> *



I see. Yes the retention of Old Iranian initial "g-" in Ossetic is strange, however I presume it does not seem wrong as far as the Scythian (actually Khotanese here?) proper is regarded.

By the way I am not sure whether I should assume Kurdish "kawt" in sense of "fish" rather than "moon" (it is only attested in a Persian to Kurdish dictionary and I guess maybe a kind of confusion have taken place in terms of Persian "maah" ~ "moon" and "maahi" ~ "fish"!). Since after all initial Old Iranian "g-" also does not give "k-" in Kurdish (except for a few cases perhaps), while one might explain "kawt" in a simpler way through "kapt*" <? "kap-ti*" cf. "kap-" in sense of "fish" in various Eastern Iranian speeches.


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## Phosphorus

sotos said:


> The word "mooooon"
> 
> Seriously, there are myths connecting the moon with the cow (and the sun with the bull). It wouldn't be surprising if this mythical (subconscious) connection is reflected in some languages.



Yes indeed and it was the only thing crossed my mind, in order to trace back the etymology of Kurdish "kawt", as soon as I noticed Scythian "godi" and alleged Ossetic "gawd". But in this case the linguistic evidences appear to support such a speculation not.


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## Phosphorus

fdb said:


> *As you know, Iranian g- becomes γ- in Digoron and q- in Iron. Consequently, initial g- occurs in Ossetic really only in loanwords.***



Professor from when on this feature, namely "g-" > "gh/q-", is supposed to take place in Ossetic? I mean is there any chance for an alleged "gawd" to be a Middle or Old Ossetic word?

By the way I have heard of some 30 or 40 Jassic words, mainly in relation to agricultural lifestyle I presume, are recorded in Hungary. Do you know whether any entry for "cow" exists in that glossary or not? Also does Jassic represent the famous Eastern Iranian shift of "g-" to "gh/q-" too?


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## fdb

Phosphorus said:


> I see. Yes the retention of Old Iranian initial "g-" in Ossetic is strange, however I presume it does not seem wrong as far as the Scythian (actually Khotanese here?) proper is regarded.



The Khotanese word for ‘cow’ is ggūhi-.


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## fdb

Phosphorus said:


> Professor from when on this feature, namely "g-" > "gh/q-", is supposed to take place in Ossetic? I mean is there any chance for an alleged "gawd" to be a Middle or Old Ossetic word?
> 
> By the way I have heard of some 30 or 40 Jassic words, mainly in relation to agricultural lifestyle I presume, are recorded in Hungary. Do you know whether any entry for "cow" exists in that glossary or not? Also does Jassic represent the famous Eastern Iranian shift of "g-" to "gh/q-" too?



It is generally assumed that proto-Ossetic (Alanic) participated in the Eastern Iranian shift of g, b, d > γ, β, δ and that β and δ later shifted back to b, d though I have floated the suggestion that the Eastern Iranian shift was only partially carried out in Alanic, comparing the incomplete High German shift of p, t, k > pf, ts, kx (the last only in Switzerland). I do not have the Yassic (i.e. Hungarian Alanic) glossary with me at the moment. As I recall, it is in Latin script and presumably does not distinguish g from γ.


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## Phosphorus

I see. Thanks indeed for your notes professor.


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