# את vs. ה‎



## אדם

When should you use the preposition את instead of ה? Are they interchangable, or is there something specific?

Which would be more appropriate:

איפה הספר שלי?
איפה את ספר שלי?

תודה​


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## eshcar

Hauser said:


> When should you use the preposition את instead of ה? Are they interchangable, or is there something specific?
> 
> Which would be more appropriate:
> 
> איפה הספר שלי?
> איפה את ספר שלי?​
> 
> תודה​


 
it's not a matter of appropriateness - איפה את ספר שלי? doesn't exist in hebrew. 
את is used only when a definite noun is a direct object of a verb. For example: אני רואה את ההר (_I see the mountain_). In this sentence, הר is the direct object (definite) of the verb רואה, so it must be preceded by את.

In the sentence: איפה ההר הזה? (_where is that mountain?_), הר is the subject of the sentence, so it merely gets a ה"א הידיעה attached to it, as a signifier that it is a definite noun (that's how a definite noun is created in hebrew - ה"א הידיעה)

I'm not sure I explained everythind completely, so feel free to ask some follow-up questions that will help us both to come up with a clearer explanation.


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## אדם

No, that makes sense. So for example, "I touch the book" is "אני נוגע את הספר"?

And when you say "that book" it is "הספר הזה"? (Thats what I gathered from your example)


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## eshcar

Hauser said:


> No, that makes sense. So for example, "I touch the book" is "אני נוגע את הספר"?


 
You got the right idea, just not the right verb... In hebrew, the verb לגעת takes the preposition ב, so the correct sentence is אני נוגע בספר. But if you exchanged it for a verb that does take a direct object, like לקרוא, then you would be completely right in forming the sentence אני קורא את הספר.



> And when you say "that book" it is "הספר הזה"? (Thats what I gathered from your example)


 
Yes, that's exactly right


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## אדם

How can you tell what the preposition should be? 

Also, would this dialog work (wanted to type something longer)?

*אדם: * שלום, מה זה? 
*רואי: *זה אכל, אתה רוצה האכל? 
*אדם: *קן. (נו אני אוכל את האכל) 

זה טוב?

תודה​


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## JaiHare

Hauser said:


> How can you tell what the preposition should be?
> 
> Also, would this dialog work (wanted to type something longer)?
> 
> *אדם: * שלום, מה זה?
> *רואי: *זה אכל, אתה רוצה האכל?
> *אדם: *קן. (נו אני אוכל את האכל)
> 
> זה טוב?
> 
> תודה​



 This is a hard question! This is called "governance", and it is completely unpredictable in any language.

For example, we say in English "I am afraid of the dark." Why do we say "of" in this sentence? Why don't we say "from" (as they say in Hebrew)? Why don't we say "in"? Is there a _reason_ why we say "of"? Of course not! It is completely random, and the only way to know that we say "of" in this sentence is to hear it spoken or read it somewhere. There is no logic behind it.

So it is that לגעת ("to touch") governs the preposition ב־, as does לטפל ("to take care of"). There is no reason that we have to say אל תיגע בי ("don't touch me!") or היא מטפלת בילדים שלי ("she's taking care of my kids"), but you have to say it this way because it's how the language works.

Yours,
JaiHare

By the way, the word "food" is generally spelled with a vav: אוכל. Additionally, "yes" is spelled with a kaf and not a kuf: כן.


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## eshcar

Hauser said:


> How can you tell what the preposition should be?
> 
> Also, would this dialog work (wanted to type something longer)?
> 
> *אדם: *שלום, מה זה?
> *רואי: *זה אוכל, אתה רוצה את האוכל?
> *אדם: *קן. (נו אני אוכל את האוכל)​
> זה טוב?​
> 
> תודה​


 
Okay, so as you can see I corrected your second sentence a bit - added את. This is because לרצות takes a direct object in hebrew (just like לאכול in your last sentence, where you did remember to write את).

About the validity of the dialog - I'm not sure. The first two line - no problem with them, but the in last one I didn't understand what you were trying to say. Maybe you could give me the equivalent english sentence so I could see what you meant.

(BTW, I'm not sure, but that might be a bif off-topic, so maybe you should do it in a new thread, so that elroy won't smite us down )


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## JaiHare

eshcar said:


> Okay, so as you can see I corrected your second sentence a bit - added את. This is because לרצות takes a direct object in hebrew (just like לאכול in your last sentence, where you did remember to write את).
> 
> About the validity of the dialog - I'm not sure. The first two line - no problem with them, but the in last one I didn't understand what you were trying to say. Maybe you could give me the equivalent english sentence so I could see what you meant.
> 
> (BTW, I'm not sure, but that might be a bif off-topic, so maybe you should do it in a new thread, so that elroy won't smite us down )


I think he meant "Yes (So, I ate the food.)." In this case, I would make it something like:

כן. (לכן, אכלתי את האוכל)

When you use "so" to mean something like "therefore", you do not say נו, which is what he was assuming, and I've already corrected his קן (which means "honest") to כן (which means "yes").

Yonah


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## eshcar

I'm not sure that's what he meant, if only because the verb אוכל is either in the future or the present tense, but definitely not in the future. I don't have a proposition of my own, so I'll just wait for Hauser to tell us himelf what he meant...  Maybe you'll be right - I guess that as someone also learning the language, you get a good sense of how fellow students would think (especially since you have the same native tongue)



JaiHare said:


> I've already corrected his קן (which means "honest") to כן (which means "yes").
> 
> Yonah


 
oh, what a tangled web we weave...

In fact, כן means both "honest" AND "yes". still, you were of course right to correct his קן, which means "nest"


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## אדם

I'll be sure to remember that.

And yes, I meant something along what JaiHare said, but "So, I eat the food."

I supposed if I wanted to say it more normally (with the correction of how to say the correct "so" it would be more like.. "לכן, אכלתי את האוכל".) Which I was hoping would mean "So, I ate the food". In this case is the את used appropriately?

When using את, just to clarify, is that when the action is being done on a direct object? i.e. "I throw the ball."

But with something like, "I write with the pen", you wouldn't use את right? Because your writting *with* the pen, not on it. "אני כותב עם העט"?

But for some wacky reason if you were writing on it, would you say, "אני כותב את בעט"?

And I suppose in terms of the prepositions that go before words (such as את ב vs. את ה) you just have to memorize them?


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## Mjolnir

Hauser said:


> I'll be sure to remember that.
> 
> And yes, I meant something along what JaiHare said, but "So, I eat the food."
> 
> I supposed if I wanted to say it more normally (with the correction of how to say the correct "so" it would be more like.. "לכן, אכלתי את האוכל".) Which I was hoping would mean "So, I ate the food". In this case is the את used appropriately? Yes
> 
> When using את, just to clarify, is that when the action is being done on a direct object? i.e. "I throw the ball." This seems right. אני זורק את הכדור.
> 
> But with something like, "I write with the pen", you wouldn't use את right? Because your writing *with* the pen, not on it. "אני כותב עם העט"? Right
> 
> But for some wacky reason if you were writing on it, would you say, "אני כותב את בעט"? No. That would be אני כותב על העט.
> 
> And I suppose in terms of the prepositions that go before words (such as את ב vs. את ה) you just have to memorize them?


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## eshcar

Hauser said:


> And I suppose in terms of the prepositions that go before words (such as את ב vs. את ה) you just have to memorize them?


 
Yes, you just need to memorise which verbs take which preposition.

את ב doesn't exist in hebrew - you can't put 2 prepostions one after the other. ב is used to describe the place where the action is performed or the instrument which is used to perform the action:

אני עובד במשרד (_I work in an office)_
אני כותב בעפרון/אני מבשל במחבת _(I'm writing in pencil/I'm cooking in a frying pan) _​
את ה is correct, because ה is not a preposition but a determiner. it can also come with all other prep., e.g. על ה-,מה-, אל ה.​אני עומד על הגג (_I'm standing on the roof)_
אני הולך אל הגן_ (I'm going to the garden)_
אני מוציא מהתיק _(I'm taking out of the beg)_​


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## אדם

Oh haha.. I forgot that על is on and not ב


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## Mjolnir

Hauser said:


> Oh haha.. ן  "אני כותב את העט"



No no, that's incorrect. I didn't just correct the ב to ה (I assumed it was a typo), I also changed את to על (for writing on the pen) - אני כותב על העט.


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## אדם

Yes it was.. sorry. I also just realized that what you just replied to was something I put in by accident. I was typing something else and somehow it got posted by accident. (I edited it though)

But so, for example it can only be: "אני כותב את הספר" or "אני כותב בספר"? ("I write the book", and "I write in the book")

I don't mean that's the only way to say it, but those are both seperate ways, that are correct?


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## Mjolnir

Hauser said:


> But so, for example it can only be: "אני כותב את הספר" or "אני כותב בספר"? ("I write the book", and "I write in the book")
> 
> I don't mean that's the only way to say it, but those are both separate ways, that are correct?



Yes, your examples are correct


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## אדם

Alright. 

So, to sum up את is only when doing an action on an object?
i.e.


אני אוכל את האוכל​

איפה האוכל? אני אכלתי את האוכל.​ 

אני כתבתי את הספר​


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## JaiHare

eshcar said:


> oh, what a tangled web we weave...
> 
> In fact, כן means both "honest" AND "yes". still, you were of course right to correct his קן, which means "nest"



LOL


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## JaiHare

Hauser said:


> Alright.
> 
> So, to sum up את is only when doing an action on an object?
> i.e.
> 
> 
> אני אוכל את האוכל​
> 
> איפה האוכל? אני אכלתי את האוכל.​
> 
> אני כתבתי את הספר​



 Yes, it is for the direct object that is definite (has the word "the" ה־). However, notice that this is not always the same as in English.

We say:
"I called my friend last night."

In Hebrew they say:
"I called to my friend last night." = התקשרתי לחבר שלי אתמול בלילה.

It's not always one-to-one correspondence, but you have the IDEA correct.

Yonah


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## אדם

Okay,  תודה הכול!


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## אדם

Actually.. tell me if this sentence would work (and if את is used appropriately):

לגישה את האינטרנט אתה צריך שם התחברות​
It is supposed to be, "To access the site you need to login"

"Site" and "to login" I found on Babylon dictionary.. so I'm not sure of those are correct.

Also.. can you tell me how to pronounce those?


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## Mjolnir

Hauser said:


> Actually.. tell me if this sentence would work (and if את is used appropriately):
> 
> לגישה את האינטרנט אתה צריך שם התחברות​
> It is supposed to be, "To access the site you need to login"
> 
> "Site" and "to login" I found on Babylon dictionary.. so I'm not sure of those are correct.
> 
> Also.. can you tell me how to pronounce those?



That sentence doesn't work.

Site (website) is אתר (_atar_) or אתר אינטרנט.
Internet is אינטרנט (pronounced the same).
To login - להתחבר (_lehitchaber_).
To access - לגשת, להשיג גישה (_lageshet_, _lehasig gisha_).

"To access the site you need to login" would be something like
כדי לגשת אל האתר אתה צריך להתחבר.
I don't think לגשת is used in this context, it's usually "to see the site" - לראות.

Also, about our post in the previous page - תודה על הכל (thanks for everything) or תודה לכולם (thanks everyone).​


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## אדם

When should את be followed by ה, and when should it not?


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## בעל-חלומות

את is always followed by ה, except:
1.When the object is a name. (הוא שונא את יורם)
2.When the object is in שייכות, that is ,with possesstion endings. (אני מכיר את אחי טוב)


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## אדם

So if I wanted to say, "I hurt Yoni" it would have to be: 


פגעתי את יוני
לא
פגעתי יוני
?
​
Is אותו formed by combining את and הוא? Just like של and הוא is combined to make שלו?

Also, I'm not sure about that verb "פגעתי" if that was correct in this sentence -- it is what I found on Babylon. How would you say "hit" instead?


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## בעל-חלומות

The verb לפגוע means "to hurt" and "to hit (when one thing hits another)". If you meant to say "to hit (as in kicks and punches)" you can use להכות את or להרביץ ל.

Regarding the use of את, you would have been right if it was a verb that used the preposition את, but לפגוע uses ב. So it's פגעתי ביוני. Notice that here too, there is no ה in front of the name. That is, ביוני is prononunced "beyoni" and not "bayoni".


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## אדם

So, you just have to memorize what prepositions certain words take?


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