# doctor honoris causa - pronunciation



## Zareza

Hello!
Could you help me, please? We know that _doctor honoris causa_ comes from Latin. I begin to be interested about this expression when I heard in Romanian (language with very strong Latin roots): _causa_ pronounced _cau*z*a_. And I asked myself about _casa, ae_ (house). No, *s* between vowels remains *s*. OK.

Then I found the pronunciation of this expression in English, French or Spanish, but...

/ɒˌnɔːrɪs ˈkaʊzə/ -  in British English - Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary
/əˌnɔːrəs ˈkɔːzə/ -  in NAmer English - Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary
[ʼɔnɔriskoza]       -  in French - Larousse
http://dictionnaire.reverso.net/espagnol-definition/doctor honoris causa  - in Spanish [causa]

But how should be pronounced in Latin?

I searched the etymology: _causa_ comes from old Latin _cau*ss*a_.

And I found this on Wikipedia:
_*Causa sui*_ (Latin pronunciation: [kawsa sʊi], meaning "cause of itself" in Latin) denotes something which is generated within itself.

I understand to read_ causa_ in Latin = _causa_. Where I am wrong? 

Lovers of Latin, please, give me a sunny day in my life  ! 

Thank you!


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## Scholiast

salvete omnes!

This is (in another form) a question like the old chestnut of how Latin is (or "ought to be") pronounced in singing of ecclesiastical music.

There is no single strictly "correct" pronunciation of Latin in modern church, legal, or academic contexts: every (modern) language has its own conventions.

English-speakers (AmE and BrE) will say cau_*z*_a, as will French and German, but Italians will veer towards _cau*ss*a_ (which is nearer to the Latin of Cicero or Caesar). Almost all will forget that in classical Latin, _caus*ā* _is pronounced with a long _*ā *_(as in Engl. "f_*a*_ther") at the final syllable.

How pedantic do you want or need to be? Of course Romanian is a close descendant of classical Latin, so what sounds natural to a Romanian speaker should therefore be quite good enough.

Σ


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## Zareza

Thank you, Scholiast! I understand from you that if I pronounce _doctor honoris causa_ with *s*, I mean like a real Latin, it is good and I can sleep comfortable  .
Unfortunately, it is not so. I do not want to be pedantic and nobody ask me to be, it is that I want to pronounce like in Latin (I mean to respect it).
I tell you a story.
A very famous Romanian dictionary called DOOM (Orthographic, Orthoepic and Morphological Dictionary) says that we have to pronounce _cau*z*a_. Why? I do not understand at all. And if I pronounce with *s*, it is wrong. For me it is a mystery because Romanian academicians (I suppose they know Latin!) are involved in the compilation of the dictionary, and now all the speakers on radio, television...  
I hope to find this mystery. I hope the Romanian academicians are not influenced by the academicians from other countries.
Where am I wrong? I think I go on a slippery road. 
And the last hope: I hope not to became tomorrow _omo zapien_ because of some linguistic reason...


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## Scholiast

zalvete!

I could try to put it into the phonetic alphabet, but it would take ages, and would probably not be very helpful.

You are not "wrong" anyway. If in doubt, keep the "s" unvoiced, that is "honori*ss* cau*ss*a": you can't go wrong with that.

And don't worry about Romanian Academicians: they are used, like Academicians everywhere, to understanding varieties of language and enunciation.

Σ


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## Zareza

Salutare!
Because of your experience as a teacher, probably you are more tolerant, and perhaps because of the frequent contact with the Latin pronounced in ecclesiastical music (in Romania this kind of music is in Romanian for more than 100 years). Unfortunately, I am not so tolerant. I can imagine a foreign Academician, for example, in the University of Bucharest saying [ʼɔnɔriskoza] with the accent on _a_. I can say that even students will laugh. I am sorry to say that, but it is obviously. Probably we are not use to hear the Latin with the pronunciation hacked (I do not know if _hacked_ is suitable in this context), I mean we pronounce all the letters one by one (except _ae_, etc.) with the pronunciation from Latin. Probably for that looked strange for me _cau*z*a_.
”Salutare” is a Romanian word from Latin _salūtāre_, present active infinitive of _salūtō_, and became a noun = Hello! Latin is very present in the Romanian language and I  want that the Academicians understand the varieties of language and enunciation, but not to change them because of their failings.
(Sorry of my mistakes in English)
Thank you !


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## Necsus

Hello, Zareza.
If you wish, HERE you can hear the pronunciation of 'honoris causa'.


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## Zareza

Thank you!

This is what I found there:






My question is: Why do we have to read _cau*z*a_? Which is the linguistic reason? I searched the etymology: _causa_ comes from old Latin _cau*ss*a_. And we read _ca*s*a, ae (house, home)_. Is there an exception with the word *causa*?

Z


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## Necsus

But have you heard the pronunciation clicking on the little red arrow?


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## Zareza

Yes, I have. They pronounce with *Z*. My question is: Why? In Latin *S* intervocallic is *S* or *Z*? For me it is *S*: ca*s*a, ae.


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## Necsus

Zareza, I agreed, in fact as far as I know, the Latin S was only voiceless (sorda: /s/). But in the transformation from Latin to Italian a lot of words containing S have gone through a voicing (sonorizzazione) process (see HERE), and since the DOP is the Italian Dictionary of orthography and pronunciation (causa)...


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## Zareza

OK, I understand the story with the dictionaries... As I said, a very famous Romanian dictionary called DOOM (Orthographic, Orthoepic and Morphological Dictionary) says that we have to pronounce _cau*z*a_... But why? I really do not understand. In Romanian we are able to pronounce _cau*s*a_...
For exemple, I learn Italian... but I pronounce a little bit in my personal manner and I consider I am very good at Italian. Would you like to hear such an Italian pronunciation and to agree with me that I am very good at Italian? No, of course not. The same story is with Latin. 

omo zabien or homo sapiens  - What do you think? Or shall we think again (in the future)?

Thank you for the article about voicing process!
Z


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## Necsus

Hello, Zareza.
From what I've seen in various discussion groups (Narkive, Cruscate), at the beginning Latin had intervocalic S voiced, like other Indo-European languages, then it lost it because of rhotacization phenomenon (VenuS,VeneZis > Venus,VeneRis), so maybe some Z could be survived. Only the S of 'causa' comes from the reduction of SS in 'caussa', so it should be actually pronounced 'cauSa', unvoiced.


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## Zareza

Yes, I said_ causa_ comes from old Latin _cau*ss*a_ - it is about the gemination of S / consonant elongation - a sibilant geminated became not-geminated. Because of double S, rhotacization phenomenon didn't happen. 
Does it seem that this argument it is strong enough to believe that we have to read _cauSa_?
Doesn't it seem weird to you that the academicians do not want/know (?) to read _cauSa_?


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## Necsus

Actually at this point I don't see any valid explanation to pronounce the word _causa _with voiced S. And here is what the reputable Italian dictionary Treccani says:
"_causa_ è _kàu*s*a_ nel latino classico, ma _kàu_*∫*_a_ nella pronuncia toscana del latino e dell'italiano" (_causa_ is _kàu*s*a_ in classic Latin, but _kàu_*∫*_a_ in Tuscan pronounce of Latin and Italian).


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## Scholiast

salvete iterum!

With the proviso that although I know Latin and Greek as literary languages, I am no scholar of phonetics, and there are people here far more knowledgable than I about Comparative Philology, I have two observations.

First, Italian _cosa_ is always pronounced voiced.

Secondly, in classical Latin inscriptions (and mediaeval manuscripts), _causa _is sometimes spelled _caussa._ This may suggest that already in classical times, a distinction was perceptible between voiced and unvoiced sibilants, and no uniform agreement about their orthography.

Σ


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## Necsus

And here is what Wikipedia says about *Ecclesiastical Latin* (there is also the English version of the page):
*S*: */s/*, */z/*; se ad inizio parola o attigua ad una consonante, è la *s* sorda (/s/, come in *s*ole); se intervocalica o seguita da consonante sonora è la *s* sonora (z/, come in ca*s*a). Esempi: _sal_/'sal/; _rosa_/'rɔza/; _praesto_/'prɛsto/;_Lesbos_/'lɛzbos/ (*S*: */s/*, */z/*; if at the beginning of a word or next to a consonant, it is the *s* unvoiced (/s/, likein *s*ole); if intervocalic or followed by voiced consonant it is the *s* voiced (z/, like in ca*s*a). Examples: _sal_/'sal/; _rosa_/'rɔza/; _praesto_/'prɛsto/;_Lesbos_/'lɛzbos/).

Only that DOP gives Italian _casa _with S unvoiced (and _cosa _as well, Scholiast).


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## Zareza

Do you mean that in the Ecclesiastical Latin you do not use an accurate Latin pronunciation?


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## Necsus

Not me, but Wiki means that the Ecclesiastical Latin was characterized by vulgar Latin, therefore it was influenced by local languages, and there were various differences of pronunciation between the two languages.


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## Scholiast

salvete in perpetuum!


> And here is what Wikipedia says about *Ecclesiastical Latin*



_ confundatur Wikipaedia_! There is no such thing as "ecclesiastical Latin". There is Latin as sung in churches, which varies from country to country. What is commonly supposed to be "correct" ecclesiastical Latin is simply Latin sung according to the pronunciation-conventions of Italian, because of the dominant influence of Italian music in the Renaissance period, and composers such as Palestrina and Monteverdi.

There must be previous threads on this (I'm sure I have contributed to at least one), but I have no time to search for them now.

Σ


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## Necsus

Here is a guide in English to the pronunciation of Latin, both Classical Pronunciation and Ecclesiastical Pronunciation.


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## Scholiast

Sorry, Necsus

"Here" is precisely the nonsense I was referring to in my previous post. My remarks, there and now, apply not only to the singing of church music in Latin, but also to the pronunciation of liturgical texts by prelates of the Roman Catholic persuasion. There has never been a "standard" pronunciation of "Ecclesiastical Latin" - rather, an assumption, deriving from the fact that the Catholic hierarchy has been for so many centuries dominated by Italian clergy, that ecclesiastical texts in Latin "should" be pronounced according to the conventions of Italian orthography and phonetic usage.

I am not for a minute suggesting that the Italian pronunciation is in any way _invalid_: only that it is historically and linguistically misguided to suppose that this is _the only "correct" _way to pronounce the language.

Σ


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## Necsus

Scholiast said:


> it is historically and linguistically misguided to suppose that this is _the only "correct" _way to pronounce the language.


Scholiast, honestly I never supposed that. And I hope I never said that, but maybe my poor English deceived me.


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## irinet

Hi, Zareza,

I would say that DOOM has many weird suggestions,  and 'caus/za' is only one of them. Preferably, they keep up with Time and with what speakers have been using  most often as favourite word, pronunciation, writing, etc.


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