# Romance 'mouse'



## Joannes

Hi all

I would like to know if there's any Romance language apart from French (*souris*) that has 'kept' the Latin word for 'mouse' (*sorex*)? And I wonder why languages like Catalan and Spanish nowadays use a derivative of 'rat'.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!


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## Frank06

Hi,

In Portuguese, the word for _mouse is_ 'rato', while _rat_ is ratão, the augmentative.

As for why... Tja...
My Portuguese etymological dictionary says "Voc. comum às línguas românicas e germânicas, mas de origem incerto, talvez onomatopaica", which doesn't really answer your question.
The Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology gives "Rom(anic). *rattus", which doesn't answer your question either.
Van Dale refers to Medieval Latin rattus, which they suggest might be related to _rodere_.

Anyway, I'd wait for more replies, but this seems to suggest that it _could _be possible that the Romance language kept the (Late) Latin (or Romance) word 'rattus' and maybe we should wonder about the Latin sorex...

Groetjes,

Frank


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## CapnPrep

The thing is, _sorex_ originally meant "shrew", not "mouse". So it still survives in other languages with that meaning (e.g. _sorcio_), but even there it has been overshadowed by other formations, e.g. _musaraña_ (containing the real Latin word for "mouse", _mus_).

Ménage proposed that French _rat_ derived from Latin _mus_. He was not joking:*_mus_ > _muratus_ >_ ratus_ >_ rat_ ​*But _I _am.


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## XiaoRoel

En el dominio romance hispánico, _gal.-port_. rato, rata, ratão; _esp_. rata, ratón, (rato); _cat._, rat.
Todas proviene de un vulgar *rattus/*ratta (con geminación expresiva) que para mí (como àra CarnPrep) viene de [mu]ratus/[mu]rata, con heminación expresiva, seguramente de su uso impresivo-expresivo (¡ratas/ratones!). También se ha propuesto que sea una onomatopeya del sonido que hace al roer, o una formación derivada de rap(ta)tu del verbo rapto.
Pero, al menos en castellano, *mure* siguió en la lengua en la forma *mur* (quizás en todos los registros de la lengua: refranero, Arcipreste, Juan de Valdés entre otros). 
Conocida es la intervención de _mure (caecu)_ en la formación del gal.-port. _morcego_, _morciguillo_ o _murciélago_ (con un sufijo prerromano expresivo que también aparece en _relámpago_ y de naturaleza algo misteriosa y esquiva)y muchas otras variantes (el catalán usa también _rat pennat_ de _rattu pennatu)_.
Lo que hace el francés en _souris_ es usar un eufemismo preventivo (del tipo de _comadreja_ en español o donceliña/denosiña en gallego), cosa típica con animales malignos, que pertenence a lo que se llama magia simpatica, que es parte de usos y creencias antropológicos muy antiguos y que perviven en la actualidad, Basta recordar, _comadreja _o_ raposa/o_ en español, o en muchas otras lenguas las palabras para el _oso_ o el _lobo_. Y toda la serie de eufemismos para _serpientes_, _alimañas_ e _insectos_, considerados peligrosos o malignos.


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## CapnPrep

XiaoRoel said:


> Todas proviene de un vulgar *rattus/*ratta (con geminación expresiva) que para mí (como àra CarnPrep) viene de [mu]ratus/[mu]rata, con heminación expresiva


¡No para CapnPrep! I just wanted to cite this gem from the archives of pre-scientific etymology so everyone could have a good laugh. No one (as far as I knew until just now) still takes this seriously. Then again, I guess it's more fun than "origin unknown".


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## XiaoRoel

No veo la precientificidad de la explicación de *rattus* por _muratus_ ('arratonado') y la _geminación expresiva_ en este tipo de palabras que muchas veces se dicen en un contexto de modalidad _impresivo-expresiva._
O esto, o la _onomatopeya_ o, lo que es más resbaladizo, una misteriosa palabra de un _sustrato_ todavía más misterioso.
A mí las onomatopeyas, así en general, de dan mala espina y se ha abusado de ellas muchas veces.
No hay que tirar todo lo antiguo en filología. Hay mucho aprovechable. Y eso de científico, depende de como lo contemples. ¡Menuda discusión que se podría montar!


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## Alxmrphi

> there's any Romance language apart from French (*souris*) that has 'kept' the Latin word for 'mouse' (*sorex*)?


The Latin word for mouse was *mus* though, wasn't it?

Source 1, Source 2, Source 3, Source 4.


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## CapnPrep

XiaoRoel said:


> No veo la precientificidad de la explicación de *rattus* por _muratus_ ('arratonado')


The following fantastic hypotheses are exactly parallel:flos > florosa > rosa > rose
pulex > pulicatus > catus > cat​From "flower" to "rose", why not? From "flea" to "cat" — makes sense!* In fact, if anything, these two examples are more plausible than the _mus_-_rattus_ story, because _florosus_ and _pulico_ are actually attested, unlike _muratus_, for which there is no evidence at all.

*Again, I am joking.



XiaoRoel said:


> Lo que hace el francés en _souris_ es usar un eufemismo preventivo


This would only make sense if _sorex_ were a less "dangerous" word than _mus_. But in fact the shrew was also believed to be harmful, venomous, and malignant. So the euphemism explanation is not very convincing. Especially since, in the opposite direction, _mus araneus_ (> Fr. _musaraigne_) became the name for the shrew. "Mouse" and "shrew" can't be euphemisms of each other! This simply seems to be a case of terminological overlap, i.e. imprecise use of the same names for similar-looking species.


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## Joannes

CapnPrep said:


> The thing is, _sorex_ originally meant "shrew", not "mouse".


Ohh, ok, that explains a lot to begin with of course..


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## koniecswiata

Maybe there was some degree of "confusion" about what some of these words meant exactly--especially since small, similar looking/behaving animals are involved.  For example topo in Spanish means mole, but topolino is mouse (I believe) in Italian.  I think that little semantic switches about what words exactly mean are very probable with words like this.  A quick unscientific "survey" of some Spanish speakers I just did showed that none of them really know what a "musaraña" is.


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## Alxmrphi

> but topolino is mouse (I believe) in Italian.


 
topo / topolino 
(_topolino_ is actually _Mickey Mouse_ )


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## koniecswiata

Oops, about the "topolino"!  Still it's connected to "mouse"--although a cartoon one!


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## Alxmrphi

It's not a mistake, it meant_ mouse_ before Mickey Mouse, it was just a connection that became attached to the word, the _-ino_ ending is just a diminuitive so it still has the meaning of _'little mouse'_.
Strange connections all of these, Latin was mus, Italian is topo, Spanish has topo but it means mole and the word is ráton, and French has souris, quite a collection!


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## koniecswiata

An interesting parallel to this kind of confusing etymological situation of related languages is that "robin" is a different bird in American English than British English.  It could be an illustration of something that happened 2,000 years ago (approx.) to dialects of Latin being spoken in different areas.


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## Alxmrphi

That's quite a relevant example, I recently read a chapter about how in the colonization of America how they imported words and in some cases words changed from the BE usage and began to be adapted to separate usages in AE, I was sure 'robin' was an example that was used but I can't find the relevant part in the book!
I wonder if there's an example where 3 places like BE / AE & AusE have the same word for different usages (once meaning the same thing).


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## Favara

Alxmrphi said:


> Strange connections all of these, Latin was mus, Italian is topo, Spanish has topo but it means mole and the word is ráton, and French has souris, quite a collection!


Add to these Catalan:

_Rata/Rat: _Rat
_Rat furet:_ Mouse (rat+???)
_Ratolí__:_ Mouse (diminutive of rat)
_Ratpenat_/_Rata penada/Ratapinyada/Ratapenera__:_ Bat ("feathered rat")
_Rat-buf/Rat-bufot:_ Water vole (rat+Latin "bufo"=toad?)
_
Musaranya: _Shrew (mus+spider)
_Muriac_: Bat (related to Latin "mus"?)
_Muricec:_ Bat (a blind "mus"?)

_Talp_: Mole (same origin as Italian/Spanish "topo")

_Voliac: _Bat (related to _volar, _"to fly"?)


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## Alxmrphi

> _Talp_: Mole (same origin as Italian/Spanish "topo")


 
Really? this gets stranger!
_Talpa_ is Italian for_ Mole_... so the origin of these words was united and split to represent the word _mouse_ as _topo_, and _talpa_ as _mole_ in Italian? 
I can't even see a resemblance between them, the mixing of mouse/rat I can understand, but mouse/mole... hmmm, I'll reserve judgement


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## Favara

Maybe they called both creatures by a same name... After all, from a pre-taxonomical point of view, a mole is nothing more than a burrowing mouse, like a bat could be a "flying mouse".


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## effeundici

In Neapolitan dialect _mouse _is *sòrece*


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## CapnPrep

effeundici said:


> In Neapolitan dialect _mouse _is *sòrece*


This reminds me that I made a mistake above in #3: The older Italian word for "shrew" was _sorice/sorico_ (now replaced by _toporagno_), and _sorcio/(sorco)_ is apparently a rarely-used synonym of _topo_ "mouse/rat".

So in response to one of Joannes's original questions, it looks like Italian used to have two descendants of _sorex_, but has now pretty much abandoned both of them.


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## effeundici

CapnPrep said:


> So in response to one of Joannes's original questions, it looks like Italian used to have two descendants of _sorex_, but has now pretty much abandoned both of them.


 
It's not been _abandoned_. In my opinion, better to say that  it's understood everywhere but used mainly in Rome.


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## koniecswiata

I think it comes down to "small animals confusing people", especially since most people aren't taxonomists and rats, mice, moles (and voles and shrews, and others) could get all mixed up.  The idea of bats being a "flying mouse" is paralleled in German:  Fledermaus.  Look at the variety of ways that related languages refer to butterflies:  papillon, mariposa, farfalla (French, Spanish, Italian), also Schmetterling (German--actually of Slavic origin this word as one "who steals cream", whereas English associates the butterfly with butter).  I think the names of small animals are inherently unstable and prone to mixing up or change.


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## Claudiopolis

The Romanian word for mouse is _*soarece*_, so I presume that the Latin *sorex, -icis *was replaced in most Romance languages somewhere in the middle eve.


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## Sardokan1.0

Joannes said:


> Hi all
> 
> I would like to know if there's any Romance language apart from French (*souris*) that has 'kept' the Latin word for 'mouse' (*sorex*)? And I wonder why languages like Catalan and Spanish nowadays use a derivative of 'rat'.
> 
> Thanks in advance for your thoughts!




Sardinian (Logudorese, Nuorese) = sorighe, soriche ; plural = sos sorighes, sos soriches

diminutive : sorighittu, sos sorighittos
derivates : sorigalzu, sorigarzu (mouse trap) - from "soricarium"

while the word *Mus *survives as a recall, it's used when you call the cat


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## olaszinho

_Sorcio_, diminutive _sorcetto/sorcino_ is an Italian word, even if it's mainly used in some regions, especially in Rome. However it is understood everywhere.


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## Nino83

The Sicilian equivalent is _sùrici_ (< _sorice(m)_), more similar to the Latin word.


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## Penyafort

It is true that _sorice _does not seem to have rooted in the Iberian peninsula. But we can still find traces.

In Aragonese, *zorz *is used for mouse in the Western dialect.
In Spanish, *sorce *is not used but figures in dictionaries as an old synonym.
Kestrels, which are mice-eating falcons, are called *xoriguer *in Catalan, from a Latin form _*soricariu_ 'related to mice'.


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## Sardokan1.0

Penyafort said:


> It is true that _sorice _does not seem to have rooted in the Iberian peninsula. But we can still find traces.
> 
> In Aragonese, *zorz *is used for mouse in the Western dialect.
> In Spanish, *sorce *is not used but figures in dictionaries as an old synonym.
> Kestrels, which are mice-eating falcons, are called *xoriguer *in Catalan, from a Latin form _*soricariu_ 'related to mice'.




xoriguer reminded me a Sardinian verb derived from "sorighe" > sorigare (rosicchiare ad opera dei topi)

es : quel giornale è tutto rosicchiato dai topi = cussu giornale est totu sorigadu


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## olaszinho

Do you say "giornale" in Sardinian?


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## Sardokan1.0

olaszinho said:


> Do you say "giornale" in Sardinian?



yes, it's a normal loanword, even if we don't say "giorno" but "die"; there is some "integralist" that instead of "giornale" says "diariu"


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## Nino83

I think olaszinho (correct me if I misunderstood!  ) finds strange that you say "giornale" instead of "giurnale", which one would expect from the Sardinian vowel system (for example, in Sicilian it is "giunnali", following the Sicilian vowel "shift").


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## wtrmute

The Galician-Portuguese _Cantigas de Santa Maria_ attest a word _mur_ for mouse in the 13th Century.  As XiaoRoel mentioned, the word still remains as a compositional element in _morcego_ "bat" in modern Galician and Portuguese.


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## olaszinho

Nino83 said:


> I think olaszinho (correct me if I misunderstood!  ) finds strange that you say "giornale" instead of "giurnale", which one would expect from the Sardinian vowel system (for example, in Sicilian it is "giunnali", following the Sicilian vowel "shift").



Yes, giornale really sounds Italian... it's a loanword as you said. The word diariu is not bad. I'd go for it.


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## Sardokan1.0

Nino83 said:


> I think olaszinho (correct me if I misunderstood!  ) finds strange that you say "giornale" instead of "giurnale", which one would expect from the Sardinian vowel system (for example, in Sicilian it is "giunnali", following the Sicilian vowel "shift").



it sounds strange giurnale, Sardinian vowel system doesn't work exactly like Sicilian

giurnale, giunnali reminds Corsican = ghjurnale, ghjornale, ghiurnale, giurnale;

Giorno = ghjornu, ghiornu, jornu

while in Sardinian is not present the word Giorno

il giorno = su die
la giornata = sa die


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## Nino83

Sardokan1.0 said:


> Giorno = ghjornu, ghiornu, jornu



Oh, true, you're right. Also in Sicilian the stressed vowel is open in _jòrnu_.


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## Pugnator

On Neapolitan is "Surece" or "Sorece". But if it is a big rat it's called "Zoccola" which could also mean "Woman with low morality" and "Prostitute".


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## Sardokan1.0

big rat = sorigone
little mouse = sorighittu
very little mouse = sorighitteddu

I forgot to mention that the derivated verb "sorigare" it's also used as synonymous of "to hunt rats"

es : il gatto è andato a caccia di topi = su 'attu est andadu a sorigare


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## Angelo di fuoco

Alxmrphi said:


> Really? this gets stranger!
> _Talpa_ is Italian for_ Mole_... so the origin of these words was united and split to represent the word _mouse_ as _topo_, and _talpa_ as _mole_ in Italian?
> I can't even see a resemblance between them, the mixing of mouse/rat I can understand, but mouse/mole... hmmm, I'll reserve judgement



Possibly via French taupe (f), with "au" pronounced like a long closed o?


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## Sardokan1.0

Angelo di fuoco said:


> Possibly via French taupe (f), with "au" pronounced like a long closed o?



You are right

Etimologia : topo;


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## bo-marco

In Emilian:
Mouse=*Sórag*
Mole=*Tópa*


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## danielstan

Romanian _șoarece_ comes from the accusative form _sorecem _of Latin _sorex/soricis _(nominative).
In fact the vast majority of Romanian nouns of Latin origin have inherited their accusative form. The same goes generally for standard Italian and southern Italian dialects.
So the Neapolitan _sorece _could be explained from the accusative form, too.

For the Latin nouns ending in _-um/-us_ at nominative/accusative one cannot distinguish which form was inherited in Romanian or Italian because the final -s/-m have disappeared.

<off-topic>


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## bearded

bo-marco said:


> In Emilian: Mouse=*Sórag*


In Bologna there is also:
topo: _póndegh _(from Byzantine Greek 'pontikòs' - as mice allegedly originated in the (Black) Sea area, 'Pontos').
topolino (diminutive): _pundghén._
Compare modern Greek 'pondikòs/pondikàki' for ''mouse/little mouse''.
Several late Greek words came to the Bolognese dialect via Ravenna at the time of the 'Hexarchate'.


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## bo-marco

bearded man said:


> _póndegh_



Yes but I think _póndga _is _Rattus norvegicus _(Brown rat) and not _Mus musculus_ (house mouse):
Ratto grigio o delle fogne (Rattus norvegicus)
Rattus norvegicus - Wikipedia


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## Sardokan1.0

bo-marco said:


> póndga



Póndga looks like an abbreviated version of Pantegana

according to Treccani :

*pantegana* (o *pantigana*) s. f. [der. del lat. (_mus_) _Pontĭcus_ «(topo) del Ponto, cioè del Mar Nero», con sviluppo del suff. -_ĭcus_ in -_icanus_ non infrequente in nomi etnici (cfr. _Afrĭcus_ - _Africanus_)]. – Nome diffuso in dialetti settentr. (romagnolo e veneto), ma noto anche altrove, per indicare i grossi topi di chiavica o ratti.

Mus Ponticanus -> Mus Ponticana -> Pantegana


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## bearded

That is possible, though I often heard 'pundghén' for house mouse. And pantegana is the lengthened version of 'ponticus/pontica'.


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## Pugnator

At Rome the pantegana are the more or less big rat that swim usually in the Tiber or on the sewer.  I've seen them swim on the Tiber, they seem pretty creepy and long.


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