# El Kaim



## J.F. de TROYES

"El Kaim " is a rather usual family name of Jews originating from the Maghreb. I'd like to know what it is etymologically related to.
By the way could you please write it in Hebrew ?

Thanks a lot for your answers.


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## scriptum

Hi,
Could it be that the name you are referring to is Elkayam (אלקיים)?
This is a relatively recent name, occurring neither in the Bible nor in the Talmud. Its literal meaning is "God exists".


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## J.F. de TROYES

Thanks a lot for your answer. So I presume it would be a modern compound  made up of two biblical words :   קיים  and אל.  Do you know if it is it a usual or  rather rare family name , originating from  a specific country or area or not ?


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## scriptum

Elkayam is a not unfrequent family name in Israel. I believe it is of maghrebin origin, but I am not sure about it. Let's hope someone else has a better answer.


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## berndf

According to this source, _El*q*ayam _(not _El*k*ayam_) is of Hebrew and _Elkaim_ of Arabic origin. I don't know how reliable it is but it agrees with what I had expected. Names of Arabic or Berber origin are not infrequent among Moroccan Jews.


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## J.F. de TROYES

berndf said:


> According to this source, _El*q*ayam _(not _El*k*ayam_) is of Hebrew and _Elkaim_ of Arabic origin. I don't know how reliable it is but it agrees with what I had expected. Names of Arabic or Berber origin are not infrequent among Moroccan Jews.


 
I share your point of view about the Arabic origin. Actually I was looking for confirmation, because some sources as here incline for a Hebraic etymology, what is true for the name "Elqayam", but not for "El Kaim" ( el-qayyim). By the by I suppose the Hebraic root of the first and the Arabic root of the second ae the same semitic root " q-w/u-m.


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## J.F. de TROYES

Sorry for the previous missing link :

http://books.google.fr/books?id=_dQP4nHgyVUC&pg=PA377&lpg=PA377&dq=kaiam+etymology&source=bl&ots=AMyBfMIhuL&sig=1U3Nrdk58IMDuJGQYbVgXjTuuvQ&hl=fr&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#
PPP14,M1

(Type in : "kaiam")


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## vivnara

A slightly different name is Elyakim אליקים, which is a Sephardi surname. It's from the bible (Kings II 18:18), and it means God will establish.


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## Ander

Here is a French link of Jewish family names from Morocco http://www.dafina.net/lesnomsdesjuifsmarocains.htm

You will see *Elkaim ou             Elkayim :soit l’intendant en arabe,soit le rebelle en arabe, soit             le constant en hebreux

and **Elqayam :             Dieu existant, en hebreu 
*


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## J.F. de TROYES

Thanks a lot for your help. So it seems impossible to opt definitively for one of these possible origins, though personally I favour the Arabic etymology because the so called Jewish families I know come from Maghreb.


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## berndf

J.F. de TROYES said:


> ...personally I favour the Arabic etymology because the so called Jewish families I know come from Maghreb.


I too. But I wouldn't say "so called". They are Jewish. Maghrebian Jews with Arabic or Berber family name are not infrequent, like Ashkenazi Jews with German of Slavic family names are not infrequent.


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## scriptum

Ander said:


> You will see *Elkaim ou Elkayim :soit l’intendant en arabe,soit le rebelle en arabe, soit le constant en hebreux **and **Elqayam : Dieu existant, en hebreu *


Who was that Frenchman who said "toute étymologie est ou évidente, ou fausse?.."


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## Ander

Any meaning with El=God is impossible for Jews as a matter of respect for God.

The "el" can only be the Arabic article. So el-qayyam must be in Arabic the curator, caretaker, in French l'intendant.


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## Nunty

Ander said:


> Any meaning with El=God is impossible for Jews as a matter of respect for God.
> 
> The "el" can only be the Arabic article. So el-qayyam must be in Arabic the curator, caretaker, in French l'intendant.



I'm sorry, but that is not accurate. There are plenty of Jewish personal and families with -el.


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## Ander

Nun-Translator said:


> I'm sorry, but that is not accurate. There are plenty of Jewish personal and families with -el.



I still believe that Elkayim or Elkaim or Elqayim has nothing to do with God, but of course I believe what you tell me.

I'm really astonished to learn that there are Jewish family names that have the word El for God at the beginning of the name.

I really thought the Jewish religion would forbid to use any name of God for profane use such as family names. Religious Jews don't even allow the use of the word God in English, they use G-d instead. OK then, I must reconsider my view of Judaism.
I hope I am still in the realm of linguistics, in case someone might object to the religious side. But names are often closely related to religion.

Of course I know of El at the end of names, like Israel for example, and the compounds with Yah. I notice that you add a dash before -el, with no capital letter, which could mean that you imply El as an ending of names. I also know of El at the beginning of first names like El`azar or Eli`ezer. But I was thinking of family names.
You may also speak of family names which are historically Biblical first names, in which case I could understand that they are used.


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## Nunty

As you know, there are no capital letters in Hebrew. When transliterating, I don't follow any particular conventions. Sorry if I added to the confusion.

A family name that comes to mind is Elqana (אלקנא). I think that Bezeq has put the phone books on line. If so, it would be easy to do a survey of such names.


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## berndf

Jewish family names are a relatively new thing. E.g. in Eastern Europe Jews were allowed to have family names only about 200 years ago and those names were normally selected by the no-Jewish authorities. Traditional Jewish naming is name and father name (e.g. Moshe ben Maimon to quote the name of a famous Sephardic scholar). (Israeli) Jews who have adopted Hebrew family names either use father names starting in Ben- or Bar- (bar is the Aramaic word for ben=son) or simply translate there Diaspora family names, e.g. an Ashkenazi families called Brinbaum or Birnboim often changed their family names to Agassi (German Birne=Hebrew agas=English pear).

So, there are reasons why family names less frequently start with El- then first names. But these reasons are not religious.


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