# Slovak: perfective aspect as used for a general fact



## nizzebro

Hi all,
The Czech language can use perfective verbs for a general fact and in the sense of "each time in such circumstances", unlike East Slavic languages where the perfective is rather limited to the image of a single event.

I'd like to know, how close the Slovak language is to Czech in this regard? The same use of aspects in general, or any differences?


----------



## francisgranada

Give us, please, an example.


----------



## nizzebro

francisgranada said:


> Give us, please, an example.


These are examples where it's perfective in Czech but imperfective in Russian (taken from internet so I'm not sure about  correctness as I'm not a speaker of Czech, unfortunately) :

„V takových případech si teda musejí soudní referenti nějaký ten zajímavý trestní případ jednoduše _vycucat _z prstu.“ (Č., 278) - В таких случаях беднягам репортерам приходится это «интересное дельце» попросту _высасывать _из пальца. (Ч., 544)
_(Russian uses impf because it happens each time in mentioned cases)

„...; _kdykoliv se ta stará paní _ukázala _u okna nebo na dvorku, otevřel jsem honem okno,_...“ (Č., 282) - _Как только соседка_ показывалась _во дворе или у окошка, я быстро отворял свое окно,.
_(Russian uses impf because of the "whenever" sense)_

„Tedy především hypotéza, kterou přijmeme, musí _vzít _v počet všechna daná fakta;...“ (Č., 88) - Прежде всего, надо сказать, что гипотеза, признаваемая приемлемой, должна _включать _в себя все имеющиеся факты. (Ч., 469)
_(Russian uses impf because of the stative meaning assuming any hypothesis of such kind, not a specific planned one)_

za třetí, že má jít s duchem doby a _naučit _se všemu, co je v jeho oboru nového; (Č., 205) - И, в-третьих, надо идти в ногу с эпохой и _осваивать _все новое по своей специальности. (Ч., 515)
_(Russian uses impf because it is rather a general practice, not a specific result)_

Sack i soud se rozhodli, že si nikoho ze zahraničních právníků _nepustí _do procesu. (P., 94) Зак и суд решили _не подпускать_ к процессу никого из иностранных юристов. (П., 78)
_(Russian uses impf because they are going to do that in case of any attempt)_


Anyways, these showing the difference in respect to Russian are not so important, as my main point was whether there are cases (or more precisely, patterns of use) where the verb is perfective in the Czech phrase, and imperfective in the relevant Slovak one - or vice versa.


----------



## francisgranada

Thank you, now I understand your question (at lest I hope so ...).


nizzebro said:


> ... my main point was whether there are cases (or more precisely, patterns of use) where the verb is perfective in the Czech phrase, and imperfective in the relevant Slovak one - or vice versa.


In my opinion the _logic _of the usage of perfective and imperfective verbs is exactly the same in Czech and Slovak.

My _ad hoc_ explanation is, that when something happens explicitly or implicitly _repeatedly_, then the perfective form can be used.

(Not all the verbs have the "adequate" imperfective form, or they may have a bit different meaning or they may be used in different contexts. E.g. from your examples: _naučit se _vs._ naúčat se_, _pustit _vs._ pouštět_, ...)


----------



## nizzebro

francisgranada said:


> n my opinion the _logic _of the usage of perfective and imperfective verbs is exactly the same in Czech and Slovak.
> 
> My _ad hoc_ explanation is, that when something happens explicitly or implicitly _repeatedly_, then the perfective form can be used.
> 
> However there may be also an other "problem": not all the verbs have the "adequate" imperfective form, or they may have a bit different meaning or used in different contexts. E.g. from your examples: _naučit se _vs._ naúčat se_, _pustit _vs._ pouštet_, ...


Thank you. Yes, of course, there are unavoidable lexical variations (in East Slavic these are probably solved by more intensive use of prefixes).

Anyway, if we take these sentences:
Země obíhá kolem Slunce po elipse s velmi malou excentricitou dráhy.
Země oběhne Slunce za 365,2564 průměrných slunečních dní (1 siderický rok).

As I understand, the second one uses the perfective form because there is a complete frame that is repeated, so we are like stressing the sense "it takes 1 year for it (each time) to do that " - while the former sentence just describes its path and so pictures that as a continuous motion.
Same principle in Slovak, right?


----------



## francisgranada

nizzebro said:


> Same principle in Slovak, right?



Yes, concretely in Slovak:  "Zem obieha okolo Slnka ..." and "Zem obehne Slnko ...".



nizzebro said:


> As I understand, the second one uses the perfective form because there is a complete frame that is repeated, so we are like stressing the sense "it takes 1 year for it (each time) to do that " - while the former sentence just describes its path and so pictures that as a continuous motion.


I think your understanding  is OK. However "Země oběhne Slunce" grammatically does not _necessarily _mean that it happens _repeatedly _(it might happen only once, e.g. tomorrow).  Instead, "Země obíhá kolem Slunce" _implicitely _means that it "typically/repeatedly/continuously used to happen"...

(Of course, we know what is happening every day  , so our concrete interpretation of these sentences may be influenced by this fact...)


----------



## nizzebro

francisgranada said:


> Of course, we know what is happening every day  , so our concrete interpretation of these sentences may be influenced by this fact...)



It seems that "za (365 dní)" is the trigger in this case... I guess that with obíhá, this preposition would tend to be used as "behind". (I'm not sure that the prepositional patterns are the same, though, and only mentioning the very principle - whether the adjunct stands for completion, or just qualifies the process flow).


Ďakujem Vám.


----------



## francisgranada

nizzebro said:


> I guess that with obíhá, this preposition would tend to be used as "behind".


Yes.



nizzebro said:


> (I'm not sure that the prepositional patterns are the same, though, and only mentioning the very principle - whether the adjunct stands for completion, or just qualifies the process flow).


The preposition "za" is used primarily in "spacial sense" (probably in all Slavic languages), i.e.  "behind". In Western Slavic "za" is used also in "temporal sense", meaning approximately "after a certain period of time" ...

("za 365 dní" seems to me a "secondary solution", as in Czech and Slovak there is no preposition that expresses _exactly _this idea. This is only my personal impression.)

********************

For curiosity and better understanding, how do you say in Russian "Země obíhá kolem Slunce po elipse" and "Země oběhne Slunce za rok"  ?



nizzebro said:


> Ďakujem Vám.



Hе стоит! 
(I don't know if this is an adequate answer in this case ...)


----------



## nizzebro

francisgranada said:


> In Western Slavic "za" is used also in "temporal sense", meaning approximately "after a certain period of time" ...


Yes, same in the East.



francisgranada said:


> For curiosity and better understanding, how do you say in Russian "Země obíhá kolem Slunce po elipse" and "Země oběhne Slunce za rok" ?


Земля обращается вокруг Солнца  по эллипсу (more precisely, по эллиптической орбите); Земля обращается вокруг Солнца за год (probably a better wording would be Период обращения Земли составляет один год). The issue here is that we typically use a rotation-related verb, but, in principle, we could also say  Земля обходит вокруг Солнца за год/по эллипсу (only that planet walking/going might sound a bit simplistic in Russian). Either way, only an imperfective phrase is used for such patterns; a perfective one would refer to a single future passage.


francisgranada said:


> (I don't know if this is an adequate answer in this case ...)


Completely fine, as a short polite response.


----------



## francisgranada

nizzebro said:


> Земля обращается вокруг Солнца  по эллипсу (more precisely, по эллиптической орбите); Земля обращается вокруг Солнца за год (probably a better wording would be Период обращения Земли составляет один год). The issue here is that we typically use a rotation-related verb, but, in principle, we could also say  Земля обходит вокруг Солнца за год/по эллипсу (only that planet walking/going might sound a bit simplistic in Russian). Either way, only an imperfective phrase is used for such patterns; a perfective one would refer to a single future pass.


Thanks for your detailed answer . It is really interesting.

Using the verb "otočiť" (=оборотить) in Slovak it would be: "Zem *sa otočí *(perf.) okolo Slnka za (jeden) rok" and "Zem *sa otáča* (imperf.) okolo Slnka po eliptickej dráhe" .

Using the verb _ísť/chodiť _in Slovak it would be: "Zem *obíde *(perf. transitive) Slnko za (jeden) rok" and "Zem *obchádza  *(imperf. transitive) Slnko po eliptickej dráhe".

********************
Some of the imperfective verbs in Slovak had slightly changed their exact original meaning or usage and  secondary imperfective forms have been created. E.g. _obchádza, prichádza _(instead of _obchodí, prichodí_), _chodieva_, _čítava_, _sedáva_, _jedáva_, ...  (I am not sure if it has something to do with the present discussion, but I have the impression that in this case the Russian maintains better the original Slavic "situation").


----------

