# "Neutral Spanish"



## Bilingüe

_I want to know if is true that the most / best "neutral Spanish" is spoken in some areas of Colombia?_


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## Namakemono

I don't think so. I think the only Spanish which _could _be considered neutral is the one spoken in northern Spain, not just because that's where the cradle of our language is. Colombian Spanish has a poorer phonetic (I'm not only referring to c/s/z and ll/y; I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong, they pronounce "peor" as "pior"). Northern Spain Spanish also has the most logical pronoun system in my opinion. As for the lexic, formal words are the same everywhere.
To a certain extent, northern Spain Spanish is in my opinion the dialect that is more adequate to become neutral, but then again, there's no such thing as a pure, neutral dialect. That's my two cents.


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## Cracker Jack

This may be a polemic of sorts.  For me, the neutral Spanish is that found in the septrional regions of Spain, specifically the ones in Salamanca and Castilla La Mancha.  But that is just my opinion.


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## Cracker Jack

Namakemono said:


> I don't think so. I think the only Spanish which _could _be considered neutral is the one spoken in northern Spain, not just because that's where the cradle of our language is. Colombian Spanish has a poorer phonetic (I'm not only referring to c/s/z and ll/y; I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong, they pronounce "peor" as "pior"). Northern Spain Spanish also has the most logical pronoun system in my opinion. As for the lexic, formal words are the same everywhere.
> To a certain extent, northern Spain Spanish is in my opinion the dialect that is more adequate to become neutral, but then again, there's no such thing as a pure, neutral dialect. That's my two cents.


 
Yes, I concur with this.  I personally know some Colombians who pronounce v with  labio-dental phonetics.  The b and v are pronounced similarly in Spanish.  They are both labial sounds.


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## 1234plet

I think that no matter what language there will always be dialects and it will always be hard to tell where the most neutral dialect is.


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## cuchuflete

I think the question is meaningless without a precise definition of "neutral".


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## Tochi

An example is better than a long explanation. Just see Mexican telenovelas.
Most of them show a highly neutral Spanish, I mean, without any easily recognizable
accent and pronouncing the words correctly, although sometimes the Mexican inside
actors goes out. ;-)


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## cuchuflete

Thanks Tochi,

In some discussions about another language, we established that "neutral" meant only that the accent would be difficult for most native speakers to identify with a particular place, and that it would be easily understood by most any native speaker.   I think that is consistent with the telenovelas you mention.


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## Layzie

I think that any educated person who sticks to school-taught Spanish(since all the countries follow the real academia) and avoids colloqial slang is speaking neutrally.


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## Totopi

I agree with Layzie


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## Alicky

Tochi said:


> An example is better than a long explanation. Just see Mexican telenovelas.
> Most of them show a highly neutral Spanish, I mean, without any easily recognizable
> accent and pronouncing the words correctly, although sometimes the Mexican inside
> actors goes out. ;-)


 
I disagree with you. 
When I watch a telenovela I recognize easily if it comes from Mexico because of the very recognizable (.... did I create that word?*) and lovely, in my opinion, mexican accent. 

What is thought to be neutral spanish is the pronunciation of sit-coms, movies, cartoon, etc that are dubbed. At least here.

*I've just checked, and I didn't... sigh


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## jorge_val_ribera

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> In some discussions about another language, we established that "neutral" meant only that the accent would be difficult for most native speakers to identify with a particular place, and that it would be easily understood by most any native speaker.


Ah, if that's what you mean by "neutral", then my opinion is that there is no "neutral" Spanish. Because of pronounciation, Spain's Spanish is very easily recognizable, as is Latin American Spanish. There might be a "neutral Spain's Spanish" and a "neutral Latin American Spanish", but the pronounciation of the two is too different to meet the prerequisites of "neutrality" without specifying the region.


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## Tochi

<<When I watch a telenovela I recognize easily if it comes from Mexico because of the very recognizable >>

Correct, that's what I meant when I said that although sometimes 
the Mexican inside actors goes out. But your example is better,
I didn't think about it. The dubbed stuff is really neutral enough.
I believe they use voices, in the most of cases, very special which
match perfectly with the characters. Even the most of times are better
than the original ones. For me they are the best dubbing.


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## Alicky

Tochi said:


> <<When I watch a telenovela I recognize easily if it comes from Mexico because of the very recognizable >>
> 
> Correct, that's what I meant when I said that although sometimes
> the Mexican inside actors goes out. But your example is better,
> I didn't think about it. The dubbed stuff is really neutral enough.
> I believe they use voices, in the most of cases, very special which
> match perfectly with the characters. Even the most of times are better
> than the original ones. For me they are the best dubbing.


 
They do! Perhaps I'm getting out of topic here, but to my knowledge there are certain actors who have a fixed voice. If you listen to Tom Hanks in spanish, you'll hear the same voice in Forrest Gump as in Sleepless in Seattle.


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## Elibennet

1234plet said:


> I think that no matter what language there will always be dialects and it will always be hard to tell where the most neutral dialect is.



I do agree with plet.
 Now, if the spanish spoken by presenters in the CNN in Spanish is said to be neutral, let me remind you that that is not the spanish spoken in the streets anywhere. Neutrality belongs to labs, not to the dynamic live languages.


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## Namakemono

> Perhaps I'm getting out of topic here, but to my knowledge there are certain actors who have a fixed voice. If you listen to Tom Hanks in spanish, you'll hear the same voice in Forrest Gump as in Sleepless in Seattle.


Same thing happens everywhere else.


> Now, if the spanish spoken by presenters in the CNN in Spanish is said to be neutral, let me remind you that that is not the spanish spoken in the streets anywhere. Neutrality belongs to labs, not to the dynamic live languages.


I disagree. I prefer using formal language (similar to the one spoken by TV speakers) when speaking to Hispanic Americans to avoid misunderstandings.


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## natasha2000

Alicky said:


> They do! Perhaps I'm getting out of topic here, but to my knowledge there are certain actors who have a fixed voice. If you listen to Tom Hanks in spanish, you'll hear the same voice in Forrest Gump as in Sleepless in Seattle.


 
This is because it is always the same actor dubbing Tom Hanks. 

I wonder if any language in this world has its "neutral" version... 

In Spain, whatever the region, the Z and C pronunciation, so particular for the peninsular Spanish, indicates clearly that it is Spanish from Spain.

The "seseo" in Latin America, and other characteristics of each country in pronunciation clearly indicate us that at least, it is NOT Spanish from Spain. The Mexican telenovelas are recognizable as Mexican precisely for the characteristic accent, seseo, and of course, vocabulary.


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## Tochi

<<Ah, if that's what you mean by "neutral", then my opinion is that there is no
"neutral" Spanish. Because of pronounciation,>>

All that you have said have sense but precisely I think that's the idea of neutrality,
the lack of an accent. 

<<Spain's Spanish is very easily  recognizable, as is Latin American Spanish.>>
There might be a "neutral Spain's Spanish" and a "neutral Latin American Spanish",>>

I'd say the same about Cuban accent, so why to think about both countries separately ?
To think in neutral Spain Spanish would be like thinking in neutral Cuban Spanish. In
fact to say 'neutral Spanish' sounds contradictory: or it's neutral or it's Spanish.
Both things can't exist since the accent would be quite clear in any case and the idea of
'neutrality', at least as I conceive it, dissapears.

<but the pronounciation of the  two is too different to meet the prerequisites of 
"neutrality" without specifying the region.>>

You have said it. Of course it's a can of worms to define with precision what is neutral
in a language so personally I think that an accent that nobody uses could be a pattern.
And the Mexican dubbing is an example of that, simply in the streets nobody nowhere 
speaks that way. Even I've seen TV programs, specially scientific ones, where the narrators 
follow the same pattern and amazed I realize, after I see the credits, that they were
dubbed in Chile or Argentina. I admit that the Spanish case is very special due to the
letter 'Z' sound which is unique although not the rule in Spain.


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## Namakemono

It _is_ the rule. I think more than 80% pronounce it all the time, and most of the ones who don't have no problem doing it when they are asked to.


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## natasha2000

In Spain everybody pronounces Z and C in the same way. Hell, in some parts of Spain they even say it more than it is necessary...


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## Tochi

<<It is the rule. I think more than 80% pronounce it all the time, and most
of the ones who don't have no problem doing it when they are asked to.>>

I meant a rule in the sense of the totality. Many people think that absolutely
all Spaniards pronounce the 'z/c' the same way what is not true as you have
confirmed.


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## Paraíso

natasha2000 said:


> This is because it is always the same actor dubbing Tom Hanks.


 
I remember when the actor who dubbed Homer Simpson died. It was in the news, as everyone could recognize his voice... 
The voice of the usual dubbers is very popular: you hear it, and you know you are listening Robert De Niro or Al Pacino... speaking in Spanish. Or Woody Allen... dubbed through decades by actor Joan Pera

Saludos


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## Mei

Paraíso said:


> I remember when the actor who dubbed Homer Simpson died. It was in the news, as everyone could recognize his voice...
> The voice of the usual dubbers is very popular: you hear it, and you know you are listening Robert De Niro or Al Pacino... speaking in Spanish. Or Woody Allen... dubbed through decades by actor Joan Pera
> 
> Saludos



Do you mean the voice that Homer had in the first episodes? I thought he had just 2 different voices. I didn't like the first one.

Mei


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## Namakemono

He had Carlos Revilla's voice until the year 2000 or so. Since then, the actor who used to voice John Goodman dubs him. He didn't have two different voices in the first episodes, the actor simply acted better through time.


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## Namakemono

Tochi said:


> <<It is the rule. I think more than 80% pronounce it all the time, and most
> of the ones who don't have no problem doing it when they are asked to.>>
> 
> I meant a rule in the sense of the totality. Many people think that absolutely
> all Spaniards pronounce the 'z/c' the same way what is not true as you have
> confirmed.


 
Except for the Canary Islands, Spaniards have no problem distinguishing z, c, and s.


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## natasha2000

Namakemono said:


> Except for the Canary Islands, Spaniards have no problem distinguishing z, c, and s.


 
Really? I thought all Spaniards don't have problem with this. How do they on Canary Islands pronounce that sound (z/c)?


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## Namakemono

The dialect spoken in the Canary Islands is more similar to Colombian Spanish than the Spanish spoken in the rest of Spain. They pronounce z, c, and s as s.


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## Outsider

Namakemono said:


> Except for the Canary Islands, Spaniards have no problem distinguishing z, c, and s.


And Andalucía.


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## Namakemono

Only some parts of Andalucía, and most of them can imitate the northern accent "a la perfección" if you ask them to.


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## natasha2000

Yes, but I think that the problem in some parts of Andalucia is of a different nature - it's "zezeo" meaning that they pronounce Z even if the word has S, unlike America where predominant is seseo, where Z, C, S are all pronounced as S.

It would be something like: Mire Uzte', ezto va en zerio...


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## Outsider

natasha2000 said:


> Yes, but I think that the problem in some parts of Andalucia is of a different nature - it's "zezeo" meaning that they pronounce Z even if the word has S, unlike America where predominant is seseo, where Z, C, S are all pronounced as S.
> 
> It would be something like: Mire Uzte', ezto va en zerio...


Ceceo.


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## Dr. Quizá

I can use any accent and pronunciation you wish, guys  I don't think there's a neutral Spanish speech, but a neutral written Spanish. The "norma culta" makes usually impossible to know where is a text from.


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## Outsider

Actually, I've just remembered that some parts of Galicia are _seseantes_, too.


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## natasha2000

Outsider said:


> Ceceo.


 
I know it is ceceo, that is why I put it quoted,  unlike the other word, seseo.


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## Namakemono

Outsider said:


> Actually, I've just remembered that some parts of Galicia are _seseantes_, too.


 
Yup. And there are two kinds of seseo in Galician: explosive (c and z always sound as s) and the one I have, implosive (c and z only sound like s at the end of a syllable). However, when we speak Spanish, we don't have a hint of lisp.


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## Outsider

Namakemono said:


> [...] and the one I have, implosive (c and z only sound like s at the end of a syllable).


That one is very interesting! How common would you say it is, for Galicians?


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## Namakemono

It's used only in the western dialect. If you think that ones interesting, perhaps you've never heard of the _gheada _(pronouncing all Gs as a Spanish J).
I pronounce Rodríguez as /rodrijes/.


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## Outsider

I have heard about the _geada_. I just thought it was interesting that Galician only allows one kind of sibilant at the end of words, unlike (standard) Spanish, where you can find both "s" and "z". In a way, Galician seems to be more like Portuguese, in that respect. 
But I don't want to get off-topic, so I'll stop now.


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## JGreco

The "Z" sounds that occur in Andalusian also occur in some dialects of Caribbean Spanish. Also I heard that Caribbean spanish was heavily influenced by Canary Islands spanish and Gallego. I read it in a paper published by some english professor online. The Caribbean spanish accent is the accent of Cuba, Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico, Panama, coastal caribbean Colombia and Venezuela. There are many traits that are in common in Caribbean Spanish and variants of Brasilian Portuguese. I also see pronunciations such as "y" and "ll" pronounced as either "J"  sound as in english or a "zh" sound as in the word "leisure". Words such as "ja" in Portuguese and "ya" in Caribbean Spanish are pronounced the same way in certain variants. The change of word ending "ado" to "ao" seems to be something also in common with Portuguese. As for a standard neutral spanish? It doesn't exist. The biggest ego wins with who thinks they have it. Seems to be a race between Neutral Mexican soap opera cartoon spanish and Castillian to race for the biggest ego.


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## jazyk

> change of word ending "ado" to "ao" seems to be something also in common with Portuguese.


I've never heard this in Brazil, and I am Brazilian.


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## Outsider

JGreco said:


> The change of word ending "ado" to "ao" seems to be something also in common with Portuguese.


Phonetically, you may get that impression, but the Portuguese ending -_ao_ (or -_au_, as it's modernly spelled; or maybe you mean the nasal diphthong -_ão_) has a different origin. The elision of -_d_- in the ending -_ado_ is not common in Portuguese.


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## JGreco

I am not saying the change from "ado" to "ao" is common to the portuguese, I am saying the change in caribbean spanish to the "ao" is making the pronunciation more similar to the portuguese. I know ado to ao is not common in portuguese. My mother is from florianopolis so I do understand and speak (though not well) portugese. I've just simply lived closer to my fathers family in Panama to know what is going on with Caribbean spanish speakers than portuguese. I live near Caribbean speakers from several countries to know how they pronounce their various accents


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## elviajeropaisa

*YOU SAY*: I don't think so. I think the only Spanish which _could _be considered neutral is the one spoken in northern Spain, not just because that's where the cradle of our language is. 

*PAISA*: I can accept this point if you know only Spain, but the Spanish countries are 15. No doubt Spain, as the Motherland of Spanish, is an eternal reference for the language, but Spanish is a language any more owned only by Spain.

*YOU SAY*: Colombian Spanish has a poorer phonetic (I'm not only referring to c/s/z and ll/y; I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong, they pronounce "peor" as "pior").

*PAISA*: It seens you are doing a supposition about a country you do not know or know just by references. In Antioquia, for example, I never have heard such pronuntiation, but in Televisión Española, to say, I have heard Spaniards say "_video_" like "_vIdIo_", when we say "_vIdEo_". Colombia is twice the size of Spain (it is to say Spain, Portugal and France combined). That fact has a great meaning for the language too: it means that there is not actually a "_Colombian Spanish_", but "_Colombian Spanish*es*_" in plural (same with Mexico, Argentina, Perú...). In this case, your example "_pior_" can be easily identify in a specific region. The Colombian Spanish has been since the 19th Century object of attention of many scholars. About the "_Paisa_" Spanish, for example, Federico de Onís said doing the presentation of that great author that was don Tomás Carrasquilla:

"La lengua de Antioquia, que es la lengua y el estilo de Carrasquilla, es sin duda el castellano, como lo es de toda la América española, y aún podríamos añadir que es uno de los sitios (incluyendo España) donde mejor se habla. Pero esto no quiere decir, como han pensado Cejador y otros, que dicha mejoría se deba a que en esa región se haya conservado el español más puro a causa del aislamiento y el apego a la tradición. Es verdad que el español de Carrasquilla y de Antioquia nos sorprende y maravilla por su riqueza en palabras y giros que fueron clásicos y ahora sobreviven también entre los campesinos de Castilla y Andalucía. (...) Y en este sentido podríamos decir que también se destaca el lenguage antioqueño por su capacidad de innovación, de modo que habría que reputarlo como muy español y muy americano al mismo tiempo. (...)" (Federico de Onís, Tomás Carrasquilla, Prólogo a Cuentos de Tomás Carrasquilla, Ed. Bedout, Medellín, 15 de mayo de 1970, pp 5-21)


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## MarX

natasha2000 said:


> Yes, but I think that the problem in some parts of Andalucia is of a different nature - it's "zezeo" meaning that they pronounce Z even if the word has S, unlike America where predominant is seseo, where Z, C, S are all pronounced as S.
> 
> It would be something like: Mire Uzte', ezto va en zerio...


I'm not sure if anybody really speaks like that.

More probably it's like: *Mire uhté, ehto va en zerio...
* 

To answer the original question:
I don't believe there is such thing as a "neutral Spanish".


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## chics

Bilingüe said:


> _I want to know if is true that the most / best "neutral Spanish" is spoken in some areas of Colombia?_


 Where did you heard it? I'd never heard such a thing...

It may seem very egocentric, but in Spain we're sure that we speak the most "neutral" Spanish. I've always heard that it has something to do with the origin geographic of the language, so in Burgos, in Asturias, in Castilla... 

In Spain we (we... I'm from the North of Spain ) tend to say that the best Spanish is spoken in the North of Spain, unless there is a wave of thinking that put the Southern accent at the same level at the accent of Madrid and the same as the North.

Anyway, I think that nobody in Spain would hesitate to say that the most neutral "Spanish" is the one spoken in "Spain", not the American one. There are discussions in this form talking about why we consider some words "americanisms" and here is no word for "europeisms", for example, that proove this.

I don't know if in America they think that the most "neutral" (Spanish or American Spanish?) is in Colombia or why. Personally, to me, they have an absolutelly _not_ "neutral" accent !

I don't say that they are worst or speak bad or worse that us, it's that we in Spain just don't think in America when trying to find a "neutrality" of our langue... Maybe they don't think in Europe, either!


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## sokol

My Spanish teacher (a native from Spain) says that Colombian Spanish is one of the easiest to understand (for her ears), very clearly pronounced, not slurred, etc.; so probably Colombian is one of the most neutral accents (at least according to her) of _Hispanoamerica_.
But of course she inevitably too says that the most neutral Spanish is the one of Spain, of _Espana septentrionale._

As far as 'neutralness' goes - one would also say (here in Europe), that certainly the British English accent is the most neutral one. However, Americans certainly _would not_ feel that way.
So really the 'grade of neutrality' of an accent or national variety is not absolute.


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## avok

I don't know how accurate it is but I was told that the most neutral Spanish accent in Latin America is the Spanish of Peru.


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## chics

Well, a personal opinion, as I told that I've never heard in Spain any sort of rating about American Spanish "neutrality" : I don't know people of all America, but to me the accent of Chile and of Argentina (and maybe Peru...) are to me (Spaniard) surely more comprensible that the Colombian one. The Spanish of Venezuela is near, and only the Spanish of Mexico is more difficult to me to understand.


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## MarX

chics said:


> Where did you heard (I also do double past quite often ) it? I'd never heard such a thing...
> 
> It may seem very egocentric, but in Spain we're sure that we speak the most "neutral" Spanish. I've always heard that it has something to do with the origin geographic of the language, so in Burgos, in Asturias, in Castilla...
> 
> In Spain we (we... I'm from the North of Spain ) tend to say that the best Spanish is spoken in the North of Spain, unless there is a wave of thinking that put the Southern accent at the same level at the accent of Madrid and the same as the North.
> 
> Anyway, I think that nobody in Spain would hesitate to say that the most neutral "Spanish" is the one spoken in "Spain", not the American one. There are discussions in this form talking about why we consider some words "americanisms" and here is no word for "europeisms", for example, that proove this.
> 
> I don't know if in America they think that the most "neutral" (Spanish or American Spanish?) is in Colombia or why. Personally, to me, they have an absolutelly _not_ "neutral" accent !
> 
> I don't say that they are worst or speak bad or worse that us, it's that we in Spain just don't think in America when trying to find a "neutrality" of our langue... Maybe they don't think in Europe, either!


To be honest, I've heard many times that Colombian Spanish is the "clearest", "nicest" one, although that is always subjective.

Interestingly, I've heard it from many Spaniards, including one from León, who himself is supposed to speak "best" Spanish according to what you said.

But I've never really directly talked in Spanish with a Colombian.
From my personal experience, the ones who are easiest to understand are Costa Ricans.

Salam,


MarX


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## chics

Thank you for your grammar correction and for your answer.


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## JGreco

Just as the Be vs Ae phenomenon, the Spaniards and the American Hispanics are never going to agree that each others form of Spanish is the most neutral. Its a divide that is as old as the conquest of the Americas. The only thing that we can say is that the cultural linguistic center for the Spaniards is in Northern Spain so therefore they consider it as the most neutral. The cultural center of the spanish for the Hispanics  is located in Andalucia and the Canary Islands . Because of the years of separation between the two spanish speaking regions has created different attitudes and cultural aspects that of course are going to produce different opinions and different *biases*. Therefore know one unless they hold a masters in linguistics can say where the most neutral spanish occurs.


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## Mate

Moderator note: 

This is, indeed, a very interesting thread which has to be closed. 

The reason for this is that it asks for opinions that must, by default, be personal and not cultural. 

Thank you for your understanding.


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