# Pastran



## Luder

Am reading an Italian book (about the Second World War) with a lot of transliterated Russian, as remembered by uneducated Italian conscripts. A captured Italian soldier has this exchange with his Soviet captors: "Ti bea uffizier." "Niet, soldat." "Pastran, pastran!" they go on shouting, and again I almost die because they think I'm an officer. Then I show my ragged trousers. But it's not enough. Luckily for me, the Russian who gave me the overcoat turns up and defends me.

What exactly is the Russian word "pastran" referring to? I have the impression it means a "greatcoat" or a "tunic," but I looked up those words in the dictionary here and didn't see anything like "pastran." Would anybody have a suggestion for me?


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## gvozd

I strongly doubt this is a Russian word. I've never heard of it and I cannot find anything about it in the Internet.


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## LilianaB

Maybe careful, poostoroznieje?


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## morzh

It's all very mangled.

It is possible that Russians tried to use mangled language themselves, and even tried to make it sound German, as soldiers knew some German words, and clearly did not know Italian.
Such as, "uffizier" clearly is reminiscent of "offizier".
"Ты быть официр!" - mangled "Though art an officer!".

But "пастран"......"быстрей ,быстрей!" (schnell, schnell - quick, quick)...maybe?


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## gvozd

LilianaB said:


> Maybe careful, poostoroznieje?



Why do you think so?


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## LilianaB

Maybe: postoy?


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## morzh

Maybe they were trying to make the prisoners to fall in, and said "Построение! Построение!"


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## Maroseika

Maybe this is not Russian at all? What can mean "bea" in "Ti bea uffizier"? Might be some other Slavic language, Serbian for example?


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## LilianaB

What about postoronniye?


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## morzh

LilianaB said:


> What about postoronniye?



Посторонним В. 



Why would anyone keep shouting "Постпронние!" ?
Logically, one has to keep shouting something that has some bearing on the situation.

And, maybe Maroseika is right and it is some other Slavic language.


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## LilianaB

I thought maybe in the sense of strangers. The soldiers are talking about something, and suddenly unidentified people appear in the vicinity, and one of them shouts, or whispers in an imperative mood: strangers, or careful or something like that.


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## morzh

No, "Pastran, Pastran" - they go on shouting" - the dynamics of the sentence looks like this is a continuation of the previous events, and there's nothing sudden.


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## Luder

Thank you for the suggestions. Though I don't know Russian, I know enough to know the Russian here (if that's what it is) is mangled; it's also transliterated in the Italian way. I had thought about "быстрей," but it's used elsewhere in the book (albeit by a different speaker) and is transliterated "bistra." It's still a possibility.

Does "Построение" mean to fall in? To get in line?

I added another line to my first post.

And here is some more general context: the prisoner is given some clothes, including an overcoat, and for that reason the Soviets think he's an officer and he thinks they are going to kill him.


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## LilianaB

Wouldn't it be Spanish or Italian for go, pasaran?


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## morzh

Yes, построение means "falling in line", or to "form a formation, a column".


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## morzh

LilianaB said:


> Wouldn't it be Spanish or Italian for go, pasaran?




Pasaran - is "they pass" in Spanish (3-rd person plural).
The infinitive is "pasar".


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## morzh

A thought

"Postran" - means "sideways"/ "боком" in Serbian.


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## Maroseika

Таки вы будете смеяться: pastrano - soldier greatcoat (Italian).
Ti bea ufficier - broken Italian: You are officer.

So they just shouted 'pastrano', confirming reply of the captive? Why then he could not understand his native word? Very strange. But anyway, I doubt it is just a coinsidence.


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## morzh

Maybe because he passed so much spaghetti in his pants, all that he heard shouted at him, he thought was Russian. Add to that the accent......


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## Maroseika

One more version, more logical in the situation, but strange for Italian:

Spanish _pastraña_, _pastrano _- blatant lie.

- Are you an officer?
- No, I'm a soldier.
- Liar!

And this explains, why he scared to death they do not belive him.

But why they shouted in Spanish? Took part in the Civil War in Spain? Or maybe there is also colloquial Italian word with the same sense (it originates from Latin pastoranĕa and literally means coarse thing > coarse fabric).


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## Luder

I think it must be "Построение," as Walrus says. The Italians' captors are always telling them to get into a column. And a lot of words that I see transliterated with an "o" in English are transliterated with an "a" in this book. For example, "karosc" for "хорошо."


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## Maroseika

Luder said:


> I think it must be "Построение," as Walrus says. The Italians' captors are always telling them to get into a column. And a lot of words that I see transliterated with an "o" in English are transliterated with an "a" in this book. For example, "karosc" for "хорошо."



But what dangerous is in drawing up? Why drawing up means "they think I'm an officer" so that "again I almost die"? This is a dialogue, right? So:

- You are an officer.
- No, I'm a soldier.
- Draw up, draw up! 
- Inner voice: Goddammit, they don't believe me, it's light out for me. OK, I'll show them my ragged trousers, maybe then they believe and stop shouting to draw up.

Some non-linear logic, I'd say.


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## Luder

Maroseika said:


> But what dangerous is in drawing up? Why drawing up means "they think I'm an officer" so that "again I almost die"? This is a dialogue, right? So:
> 
> - You are an officer.
> - No, I'm a soldier.
> - Draw up, draw up!
> - Inner voice: Goddammit, they don't believe me, it's light out for me.
> 
> Some non-linear logic, I'd say.



I'm guessing the Italian prisoner is thinking he is being told to get into a column to be shot (or to be marched to the place where he is going to be shot).


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## Maroseika

Luder said:


> I'm guessing the Italian prisoner is thinking he is being told to get into a column to be shot (or to be marched to the place where he is going to be shot).



In this case построение is hardly possible. Such command as построение to the people going to be shot... No, I cannot imagine. I'd rather imagine строиться, but построение is too exotic. In fact, it's even not a command in Soviet Army.
Besides, I never heard Soviets shot prisoners like that (unles smaybe if they were from SS), and they hardly even cared who they were - soldiers or officers. 
And the last, построение has 5 syllables, while pastran - only two. It is also hardly possible to mix up these two words.

Why don't you admit it is just Italian? By the way, can you provide a wider abstract from the book? What has happenned just before this scene? Why do you think Soviets are speaking Russian, not Italian? As already said, "bea" is senseless in Russian, and one even could not mishear it, because in this phrase said in Russian, there is just no any word between 'you' and 'officer'.


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## LilianaB

I do not think there is such an order as postroyeniye. There is only an order stroitsya.


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## luciusvettius

Maroseika said:


> Maybe this is not Russian at all? What can mean "bea" in "Ti bea uffizier"? Might be some other Slavic language, Serbian for example?


"bea" is just a part of the word "тебя", I guess. Most likely, "Ti bea uffizier" means "Тебя офицер?" "Тебе офицер?". 
By the way, in Italian, "Ты офицер?" sounds as "Sei un ufficiale?" and so has little resemblance to "Ti bea uffizier".


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## Maroseika

luciusvettius said:


> "bea" is just a part of the word "тебя", I guess. Most likely, "Ti bea uffizier" means "Тебя офицер?" "Тебе офицер?".
> By the way, in Italian, "Ты офицер?" sounds as "Sei un ufficiale?" and so has little resemblance to "Ti bea uffizier".



But what does mean тебя офицер or тебе офицер? By implication it should be ты офицер, right? 
But I agree, 'bea' is a strange thing. However 'pastran' resembles an Italian word much more than any Russian, appropriate in this situation.


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## morzh

Maroseika said:


> However 'pastran' resembles an Italian word much more than any Russian, appropriate in this situation.



- ...К третьей падбежял, паднал, панухал - Жизель! А из зала кричат:*"И-бис! И-бис!"*. А он нэ стал - гордый!


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## Maroseika

morzh said:


> - ...К третьей падбежял, паднал, панухал - Жизель! А из зала кричат:*"И-бис! И-бис!"*. А он нэ стал - гордый!


И что характерно - все слоги на месте.


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## Luder

Maroseika said:


> In this case построение is hardly possible. Such command as построение to the people going to be shot... No, I cannot imagine. I'd rather imagine строиться, but построение is too exotic. In fact, it's even not a command in Soviet Army.
> Besides, I never heard Soviets shot prisoners like that (unles smaybe if they were from SS), and they hardly even cared who they were - soldiers or officers.
> And the last, построение has 5 syllables, while pastran - only two. It is also hardly possible to mix up these two words.
> 
> Why don't you admit it is just Italian? By the way, can you provide a wider abstract from the book? What has happenned just before this scene? Why do you think Soviets are speaking Russian, not Italian? As already said, "bea" is senseless in Russian, and one even could not mishear it, because in this phrase said in Russian, there is just no any word between 'you' and 'officer'.



I'm sure it's not Italian because nothing in Italian sounds even remotely like these words. It's also from a book, and all the "Russian" in the book is in italics (this bit is in italics, too). But it's true that these Italians hear the Russian with their Italian ears, and when they reproduce what they heard they are certainly going to add an Italian touch to it all. 

According to this book, Germans were sometimes shot immediately after they were taken prisoner (but not once they had been sent to camps, and not the Italians or Romanians, either). In addition, in the prison camps the soldiers were often separated from the officers, and the officers, unlike the soldiers, didn't usually work. They were forced to be idle.

Just before this scene, the captive was given some clothes--an officer's coat, for example--by one group of Soviet partisans (or maybe regular troops, I don't know), and when another group came upon him they thought he was an officer.

I would add, too, that the Italian transliteration in this book seems to drop the final (vowel) syllable of a lot of Russian words.


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## luciusvettius

Luder said:


> I would add, too, that the Italian transliteration in this book seems to drop the final (vowel) syllable of a lot of Russian words.


Could it be "засранец", then?


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## morzh

Нет, это - армейский термин, означающий "ранец с переносным ЗасС оборудованием".
Формально - "Ранец-ЗасС", но солдаты, конечно, переделали в "ЗасС-ранец".

А к итальянцам - никакого отношения не имеет.


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## luciusvettius

morzh said:


> Нет, это - армейский термин, означающий "ранец с переносным ЗасС оборудованием".
> Формально - "Ранец-ЗасС", но солдаты, конечно, переделали в "ЗасС-ранец".
> 
> А к итальянцам - никакого отношения не имеет.


Well, I'm inclined to think that term was a universal one and might be applied to both Russian and Italians.


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## Syline

Luder said:


> I'm sure it's not Italian because nothing in Italian sounds even remotely like these words.


 What about Italian "pastrano" (greatcoat)? It is far closer to "pastran" than any form of any Russian word, and the meaning fits well into the context. As for italics, well, a Russian wants the captive to understand him, so he uses an Italian word in his Russian speech, russifies it, so to speak.              

It *can't* be "построение" in this context, the word is absolutely out of place here.      

Is the book some kind of memoirs or fiction? 



Maroseika said:


> What can mean "bea" in "Ti bea uffizier"? Might be some other Slavic language, Serbian for example?


"Ti bea uffizier" can be "ты был офицером"


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## Maroseika

Luder said:


> I'm sure it's not Italian because nothing in Italian sounds even remotely like these words.


But what's about Italian _pastrano _- greatcoat? Doesn't it very well fit as phonetically, as semantically?




> in the prison camps the soldiers were often separated from the officers, and the officers, unlike the soldiers, didn't usually work. They were forced to be idle.
> Just before this scene, the captive was given some clothes--an officer's coat, for example--by one group of Soviet partisans (or maybe regular troops, I don't know), and when another group came upon him they thought he was an officer.


Well, but why then he did not want to be treated as an officer, if to be ab officer was much more comfortable?


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## Maroseika

Syline said:


> "Ti bea uffizier" can be "ты был офицером"



Yes, it is very possible.


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## LilianaB

Couldn't they call him postoronniy? This would not make that much sense, but perhaps?


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## Saluton

I agree with Syline, _pastran_ must be the mangled word _pastrano_ here. Perhaps one of the Russians shouted the word because they wanted his overcoat (see later: "I show my ragged trousers, but it's not enough").



Luder said:


> A captured Italian soldier has this exchange with his Soviet captors: "Ti bea uffizier." "Niet, soldat." "Pastran, pastran!" they go on shouting


You're saying this is an exchange. So, which part was said by the Italian?


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## Syline

LilianaB said:


> Couldn't they call him postoronniy? This would not make that much sense, but perhaps?


I'd even say: no sense at all. 
Really, I don't see any pro arguments for this version.


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## LilianaB

Pastorano is a community near Naples. I think this is either his name- last name, the name of the place he came from, or a nickname. I do not think it is a Russian word, then.


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## Syline

How I see the whole situation. 

The Russians say: Ты был офицером (Ti bea uffizier = You were an officer).
The Italian denies it answering in Russian: Niet, soldat. (Нет, солдатом = No, I was a soldier).
The Russians shout: Pastran, pastran! (= but you're wearing an officer's overcoat, it gives you away as an officer!)
The Italian becomes more frightened understanding that the _pastrano_ did him a bad service and decides to show his ragged trousers as if trying to say "Look how ragged my own trousers are, and this very _pastrano_ has been just given to me". But the Russians still don't believe him. Then the man who indeed gave the overcoat to the captive turns up and confirms his words.


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## LilianaB

Yes, I would agree. Is pastran an officer's coat in Italian?


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## Syline

LilianaB said:


> Yes, I would agree. Is pastran an officer's coat in Italian?


Well, I think pastrano is just an overcoat. But as a part of military outfit it should have some insignia, such as shoulder straps, identifying the rank.


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## LilianaB

Yes, I agree it is a coat, but a peasants coat, used in the military. I just think they want the coat, maybe for themselves, or want him to wear the coat or take it with him. It does not have anything to do with him being an officer, in my opinion. Maybe they want to check the coat if there might be any documents in the pockets. I doubt in fact they would want the coat for themselves.


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## Syline

Everything's possible. I think only the author of this thread can shed the light here as he's read the book and knows what's what. I'm just trying to connect logically different phrases with each other in the given context.


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## Luder

Thank you all for the suggestions. "Pastran" must, I see now, refer to the Italian "pastrano," or "greatcoat." But I think the rest of the talk ("Ti bea uffizier") is mangled Russian.

Syline's interpretation of the situation a couple of posts above is correct. And for what it's worth, in this memoir at least, captured enemy officers sometimes got worse initial treatment (from the units that captured them) than did the rank and file. So there was good reason not to be taken for an officer, who was immediately considered a Fascist and treated accordingly. And even in the camps the officers' forced idleness was sometimes, not always, harder than the forced labor of the soldiers. The soldiers at least got to leave the camps for the work sites, sometimes in nearby towns, where they could find food and talk with the locals.


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## luciusvettius

OK. The only matter to be settled now is to find out how Russian soldiers (unlikely to be much more educated than their Italian counterparts) could  come to know a specific Italian term for a soldier's overcoat.  Were not they supposed to say "шинель", instead?


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## LilianaB

You do not have to be educated to know the name for enemies' coat. maybe they heard it? Why do you think they were not educated? Do you think educated people did not fight in World War II?


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## Syline

luciusvettius said:


> OK. The only matter to be settled now is to find out how could Russian soldiers (unlikely to be much more educated than their Italian counterparts) come to know a specific Italian term for a soldier's overcoat.


I see nothing to wonder about. They were soldiers and fought with the Italians long enough to get to know some Italian words and terms.            



luciusvettius said:


> Were not they supposed to say "шинель", instead?


As I've already said, they wanted the Italian to understand them.


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## luciusvettius

LilianaB said:


> You do not have to be educated to know the name for enemies' coat. maybe they heard it? Why do you think they were not educated? Do you think educated people did not fight in World War II?


I was just referring to Luder's words: _Am reading an Italian book (about the Second World War) with a lot of  transliterated Russian, as remembered by *uneducated Italian conscripts*._ As the matter of fact, most of the _Russian_ conscripts could hardly speak any foreign language, for teaching foreign languages never was a strong point of the Soviet educational system. Few officers, let alone soldiers, could even speak German. As for Italian, it never was taught at common schools. 
To come to know an unfamiliar word you have to be in a close contact with people using it, and for a long time. I doubt if it was the case in the present situation. They might have heard "pastrano" and remained totally ignorant of its meaning. If they knew any Italian why could not they ask in the simplest Italian: "Eri un' ufficiale?" (Have you been an officer?) rather than use mangled Russian to make themselves understood.


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## LilianaB

They could have know just a few words, right? Russian soldiers usually speak a few words in a foreign language in the movies, usually German, of course. Some basic words.


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## luciusvettius

Syline said:


> I see nothing to wonder about. They were soldiers and fought with the Italians long enough to get to know some Italian words and terms.


What makes you think so? They fought with German for much longer time and still did not know any German words other than "фриц" and "шнель".


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## Syline

luciusvettius said:


> If they knew any Italian why could not they ask in the simplest Italian: "Eri un' ufficiale?" (Have you been an officer?) rather than use mangled Russian to make themselves understood.


No, they used normal Russian. It is this Italian who mangled Russian in his memoirs. 
"Офицер" is an international word, sounds similar to German "Offizier". But b/w "шинель" and "pastrano" there's a huge phonetic difference.


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## Syline

luciusvettius said:


> What makes you think so? They fought with German for much longer time and still did not know any German words other than "фриц" and "шнель".


А как же "хенде хох"?       

Непонятна ваша безапелляционность. Отдельные слова и фразы запомнить не так уж и сложно.


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## LilianaB

They knew quite a lot of words, depending which movie you watched. They could even have a real conversation in the great movie The Constellation of Bull, I do not know if this would be the right translation.


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## morzh

luciusvettius said:


> What makes you think so? They fought with German for much longer time and still did not know any German words other than "фриц" and "шнель".




Have you actually seen any WWII vets personally? I have. All of them, especially those who finished the war in Germany (most of those, who were alive, did, except the people who were decommissioned due to wounds that would prevent further fighting) knew quite  a bit of German vocabulary.

As a matter of fact, Soviet kids of 50-s, 60-s and 70-s (don't know about today) knew more than just "haende hoch" and "schnell" without learning German, because those words came in their lives with vets stories, and with books about WWII.
To the degree of many words actually becoming part of spoken Russian, like "noch einmal", "bitte", "zurueck", "ueber", "mensch", "dummkopf", "доннерветер", "фердаммт" etc.

It is almost a rule of any war, that soldier who fight on a foreign territory, quickly learn a few local words.


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