# to do something in quotation marks



## möglich

Bonjour à tous,
j'ai un texte sous les yeux où il est question de jeunes branchés qui pratiquent le karaoke. Il est : "they did so in quotations marks".
Est-ce courant d'utiliser cette formule en anglais ? 
"ils le faisaient au second degré" vous paraît être une traduction adéquate ?
Merci de me donner votre avis.


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## clairet

Si le texte est de la forme 'They "sang" a hit song.' c'est à dire qu'ils l'ont fait maladroitement.


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## Ellea1

Yes, it doesn't sound like a good singing 

Ils ont "chanté" un tube au karaoké d'hier soir.


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## möglich

en fait, il est littéralement écrit que les jeunes branchés qui participaient aux soirées karaoké "did so in *quotation marks*"
ma question étant : en anglais, est-il fréquent de dire qu'on fait une activité in quotation marks ?


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## Ellea1

You mean like in the sentence: "Yesterday, they sang in quotation marks", for example.

Means the same to me like they wasn't good at it.

Don't know if it's a common expression though.


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## möglich

the original sentence is "Most of the hipsters who took part in the karaoke sessions did so in quotation marks"


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## clairet

oui, c'est à dire en général que quelque chose n'est pas fait bien ou est l'inverse de l'apparence - mais la phrase n'est pas beaucoup utilisée.  Forcément c'est du langue parlée.

"I'm going to see my friend in quotation marks." (I'm going to see someone who isn't really my friend but who thinks they are or who I've got to treat that way for some reason.)  (parlée)

"I'm going to see my 'friend' " (écrite)


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## möglich

so they took part in quotation marks...


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## Ellea1

Most of the hipsters who took part in the karaoke sessions did so (took part by singing) in quotation marks.

Their participation in the karaoke sessions was not quite good. 

I think we can do a lot of stuff in quotation marks when we lack practice or experience.


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## The Prof

They "took part" ???

In other words, it would seem to be saying that they did not ''take part'' in the usual sense of the word!  Presumably, either their ''singing'' was more like shouting - very bad, as others have already suggested, or they did something else which would not be expected in a karaoke session..


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## clairet

Ellea1 said:


> Most of the hipsters who took part in the karaoke sessions did so (took part by singing) in quotation marks.



Yes, this finally makes sense.  I couldn't put "branché" and karaoke together (in the UK at least, karaoke is deeply uncool - unless one does it ironically, which is what the remark about quotation marks indicates).


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## Nicklondon

moglich , j'ai l'impression qu'on a pas trop bien compris ; l'utilisation de la formule *"in quotations marks"* n'est pas une expression familière du tout à l'écrit.


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## möglich

so it means they did it ironically, "au second degré" en français, right ?


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## clairet

möglich said:


> so it means they did it ironically, "au second degré" en français, right ?



looks like it


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## möglich

merci à tous


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## Topsie

En fait on ne dit pas les mots _In quotation marks_ (entre guillemets), mais quand on parle on fait un geste comme ceci au moment ou on dit le mot qu'on veut exprimer de façon ironique.
Second degré, certes ironique, me semble plus subtil que les guillemets mimés !


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## The Prof

In fact, although it is not particularly common, people_ do_ sometimes add, in speech, the words _'in inverted commas'_, which means exactly the same thing as _'in quotation marks'_. Sometimes they accompany it with the mimed gesture, sometimes they don't.
Nevertheless, the intended irony or humour is usually much clearer than it is in this particular sentence!


*EDITED*

I have just found another, very similar, example which uses 'inverted commas':

Malkmus has admitted in the past that Pavement have a tendency *to play "in inverted commas*", but elaborates: "If anyone's guilty of inverted commas then it's British bands in general. The Britpoppers are much more referential to other music in that way than us.

http://www.stewartlee.co.uk/press/writtenformoney/1997-feb02-pavement-sundaytimes.htm

This one has me even more confused than the first, since they have even put "in inverted commas" in inverted commas!!!


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## Nicklondon

As a mimed gesture ,YES, it's used a lot! But in written in English you'd be hard-pressed to find any examples - I haven't found any online since this thread started.  Good find ,The Prof, but I'm not convinced-sorry. Moglich, please give us the source of your text.


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## The Prof

‘I am actually producing something perceived as ethnic,* in inverted commas*,’ he says, ‘but at the same time the African fabric is something industrially produced, and given its cultural origins my own authenticity is questioned.’ 

http://www.frieze.com/issue/article/art_that_is_ethnic_in_inverted_commas/


(I am not claiming that it is good English, but I have heard this type of usage several times on television, on chatshow-type programmes.)


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## Nicklondon

soi-disant ... but does it work for moglich's query?


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## clairet

Nicklondon said:


> soi-disant ... but does it work for moglich's query?



That's one meaning of the gesture or the phrase but it doesn't seem to be the one for moglich's query.  I thought moglich had settled on "au second degré" - is there something wrong with that?


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## The Prof

I guess that this is the original (p59)

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...&resnum=1&ved=0CBUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Unfortunately, it doesn't really make the meaning any clearer. Not to me, anyway!

I wonder, could it be a way of saying that the place was on everyone's lips, that it was 'the place to go'?  Or am I a million miles from the mark?


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## Topsie

The Prof said:


> I guess that this is the original (p59)
> 
> http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...&resnum=1&ved=0CBUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
> 
> Unfortunately, it doesn't really make the meaning any clearer. Not to me, anyway!
> 
> I wonder, could it be a way of saying that the place was on everyone's lips, that it was 'the place to go'?  Or am I a million miles from the mark?



Ah! Context, at last! 
I still don't think (_la participation au) second degré_ is the correct translation!
Perhaps something like "ils faisaient semblant de participer" or Nicklondon's _soi-disant_ "leur soi-disant participation" 
(Also the words _quotation marks_ are used twice in the same sentence!)


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## The Prof

Topsie said:


> Ah! Context, at last!
> I still don't think (_la participation au) second degré_ is the correct translation!
> Perhaps something like "ils faisaient semblant de participer" or Nicklondon's _soi-disant_ "leur soi-disant participation"
> (Also the words _quotation marks_ are used twice in the same sentence!)


 
Yes, and it is that second use of the words that has made me wonder if we should be looking for a completely different meaning!  Confusing, isn't it?


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## clairet

I think that whatever you use it must convey the notion of irony.  What else would have any "fresh appeal" (albeit briefly) in participation in karaoke for hipsters (by the way, that term has a terribly old ring to it - 1950s/60s - or is it still current somewhere), the LA "bohemian class"?  If "au second degré" means "in an ironic fashion", it seems more likely to be right than the recent suggestions.


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## Cath.S.

möglich said:


> "ils le faisaient au second degré" vous paraît être une traduction adéquate ?


Oui. Tu pourrais peut-être aussi parler de _distance_.


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## pointvirgule

Perso, je n'aurais aucun scrupule à utiliser _entre guillemets_ comme traduction, peut-être parce que, étant Nord-Américain, le geste mimé m'est familier.

Je me verrais très bien dire : _Les cadres supérieurs du ministère travaillent, entre guillemets, de huit heures à quatre heures._ Y a-t-il un francophone qui ne comprendrait pas ? 

(Je n'utiliserais pas _au second degré_ ; ce n'est pas ce qu'ils font qui est au second degré, c'est le sens sarcastique lui-même qui l'est.)


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## The Prof

We are, I think, agreed that 'in quotation marks' relates to the word 'participated', and that we are meant to read a different meaning into that word or to take it with a pinch of salt. What we are in less agreement about is exactly what that meaning should be.

However, as regards a translation, wouldn't it be possible to use _'entre guillemets'_? Having looked at all the related links, it does seem to be used in a similar way. Yes, it would result in a French sentence which is as ambiguous as the English one, but it would also avoid 'mistranslating' the meaning! 

But as has already been said, and as Moglich will have realised by now anyway, no, 'to do something in quotation marks' is not a common (or even recognised) expression!

EDITED

Je viens de lire ton message, Pointvirgule.  Je voudrais bien savoir ce que pensent les autres francophones de 'entre guillemets'.


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## Ellea1

"entre guillemets" is a cynic expression to say that something is not at all like it looks to be.


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## The Prof

Ellea1 said:


> "entre guillemets" is a cynic expression to say that something is not at all like it looks to be.


 
But that is how I would interpret 'in quotation marks' in this sentence.
The author is either mocking or casting doubt on the word 'participated'. I am not sure if he is suggesting that they did not really participate (sing) , or if he is suggesting that their singing was so bad that it was not worthy of the word 'participation' , or something different altogether. Whatever his intended meaning, I am fairly certain that he is being cynical about the hipsters' so-called participation.


Wouldn't 'entre guillemets' work in that context?


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## Ellea1

Yes, "entre guillemets" will work in that context.


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## Cath.S.

_Entre guillemets _est une solution simple et séduisante, mais que faire du reste de la phrase ?_ Ces guillemets conservaient encore un certain attrait_ etc. me semble un peu tiré par les cheveux.   Mais bon, pourquoi pas...

En relisant le texte, il me semble d'ailleurs qu'il y a erreur, il ne s'agit pas des jeunes branchés, mais des autres participants et par conséquent _au second degré _ne va pas. Ils ne chantent pas avec ironie, simplement mal, et c'est cette maladresse qui conserve pour un temps un certain charme aux yeux des snobs.

Voici la phrase presque entière, que je recopie courageusement  sans pouvoir faire de copier-coller (à mon grand regret) :

Grime and karaoke (...) had not yet become the hipster cliché it has since become. In other words, although those who participated (...) did so largely in quotation marks, these quotation marks still had a certain fresh appeal, had not yet worn out their welcome in the smugly insular world of Los Angeles' bohemian class.

Revoilà le lien vers le texte intégral.

Le texte continue et nous apprend qu'il n'était donc pas rare de trouver à ces séances des musiciens de rock célèbres, lesquels, selon toutes probabilités, ne chantent pas faux.

Ajout
Le temps que je tape mon message, d'autres ont été postés et je vois que nous sommes tous d'accord.


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## clairet

Since I was fairly sure the " " were ironic, I went back to read more of the book extract.  It is seriously full of quotation marks and quotation marks within quotation marks.  The quotation which introduces the book is a warning "The failure is unaware of himself as a failure.  To fail at failure - even to be aware of having failed - could be construed as a kind of success."   The book's theme seems to be that none of us is really there in our ostensible actions.  It's all words.  A bank holdup is "reifying" the money not stealing it.  the gun to be used is a fake, etc etc.  

From this I conclude that "ironic distance(s - it's multi-levelled)" is/are woven into the text, rather than simple irony.  But I think that takes us back to "au second degré", doesn't it?

Thanks to moglich for referring to an interesting-looking book, which I'll now have to "read".


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