# train out



## yakor

Hi! 
1)-She can't train him out of his bad habits.
2)-She can't break his bad habits.
Do they mean the same? What is more usable?


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## reno33

I never heard of #1 but if exists, it would most likely mean the same as #2


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## dojibear

Is "he" a dog? We use sentence 1 with animals, but not people.

Note that each habit is "*his* bad habit". So she can't break it -- only he can break it.

2a) She can't get him to break his bad habits.


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## london calling

dojibear said:


> Is "he" a dog? We use sentence 1 with animals, but not people.
> 
> Note that each habit is "*his* bad habit". So she can't break it -- only he can break it.
> 
> 2a) She can't get him to break his bad habits.


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## Packard

dojibear said:


> Is "he" a dog? We use sentence 1 with animals, but not people.
> 
> Note that each habit is "*his* bad habit". So she can't break it -- only he can break it.
> 
> 2a) She can't get him to break his bad habits.



Yes and no.  We can encourage good habits and discourage bad habits.  The net result (hopefully) is breaking bad habits and adopting good habits.


We can use negative reinforcement (averse stimulus) for both dogs and people.  
We can use positive reinforcement (reinforcing stimulus) for dogs and people.

Negative reinforcement for a child:  "time out" (years ago we used to get spanked on the tush )
Positive reinforcement for a child:  go out for ice cream (a reward).


Negative reinforcement for a dog:  A stern and forceful "No! Shame on you.  Bad dog!"
Positive reinforcement for a dog:  A cheerful "Good boy!" plus generous  petting.  (Modern trainers like food rewards; I'm old fashioned and still use "good boy" + petting for a reward.)


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## dojibear

Packard said:


> We can encourage





Packard said:


> The net result (hopefully) is breaking bad habits



I was talking about the use of words like "train" and "break". I was not talking about methods or net effect.

You are discussing methods and net effect, not words we use or how we say things.


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## Packard

dojibear said:


> I was talking about the use of words like "train" and "break". I was not talking about methods or net effect.
> 
> You are discussing methods and net effect, not words we use or how we say things.


Yakor wrote:   _She can't break his bad habits. _

You wrote:   _"*his* bad habit". So she can't break it -- only he can break it. _

My contention is that it is customary to say we break others of their bad habits.  I simply described the process.  The net result is "breaking a dog/person of his/her bad habits.

I think it is very customary to use language as "I got him to break his bad habit of leaving the toilet seat up."  It was his habit.  She either used negative or a combination of negative and positive reinforcement to achieve that end.


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## dojibear

Packard said:


> My contention is that it is customary to say we break others of their bad habits.



Thanks for explaining. That's good input about how people say things in AE.


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## Packard

dojibear said:


> Thanks for explaining. That's good input about how people say things in AE.


I think it is more customary that we say, "We _try_ to break other of their bad habits."

With people I suspect the success rate is lower than then failure rate.  With dogs, we can do pretty well.  Cats are probably closer to humans in that respect (though I had one cat that I was able to train to do tricks).


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## yakor

Packard said:


> petting _for_ a reward


I would say "petting _as_ a reward"...Why do you use "_for_"?
-------


dojibear said:


> net effect


What does it mean? and "the net result" too? "net"="final"? Why?


Packard said:


> I got him to break his bad habit of leaving the toilet seat up.


Could one say the  same as
1) I got him to break his bad habit of leaving the toilet seat up.
2) I trained him out of leaving the toilet seat up.
3) I broke his bad habit to leave the toilet seat up.


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## yakor

"My contention is that it is customary to say we break others of their bad habits."
Could one say "we try to break others from their bad habits." "we try to break others from doing their bad habits"


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## Packard

yakor said:


> "My contention is that it is customary to say we break others of their bad habits."
> Could one say "we try to break others from their bad habits." "we try to break others from doing their bad habits"


If your success rate is very high, then you can say, "I break people of their bad habits".

If your success rate is not very high then, "I try to..."

If you success rate is very low, "I've given up on trying to break people of their bad habits."


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## Packard

yakor said:


> I would say "petting _as_ a reward"...Why do you use "_for_"?
> -------
> 
> 
> Could one say the  same as
> 1) I got him to break his bad habit of leaving the toilet seat up.
> 2) I trained him out of leaving the toilet seat up.
> 3) I broke his bad habit to leave the toilet seat up.





yakor said:


> I would say "petting _as_ a reward"...Why do you use "_for_"?  My thinking while writing was "*for* the purpose of an award". But your "as a reward" would work fine too.
> -------
> 
> 
> 
> Could one say the  same as
> 1) I got him to break his bad habit of leaving the toilet seat up.  This sounds fine to me.
> 2) I trained him out of leaving the toilet seat up. This does not sound idiomatic to me.
> 3) I broke his bad habit to leave of leaving the toilet seat up.


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## dojibear

yakor said:


> What does it mean? and "the net result" too? "net"="final"? Why?


This question belongs in a different thread, so it can have a full discussion.



Packard said:


> though I had one cat that I was able to train to do tricks


Do you make house calls? My sister really needs your help!


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## yakor

Packard said:


> If your success rate is very high, then you can say, "I break people of their bad habits".
> 
> If your success rate is not very high then, "I try to..."
> 
> If you success rate is very low, "I've given up on trying to break people of their bad habits."


 It is all clear)) But..
Could one use "from" instead of "of"? 
*-"I break people from their bad habits"*
and
-I break some people from doing their bad habits.
(*I break some people of doing their bad habits* is wrong, I think)
Is not the phrasal verb "train out" used for people and do it is used only for animal?
-I trained my dog out of/from the habit of jumping onto me.


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## dojibear

These bold phrases don't work.

You don't break people.
You don't break "doing something".
You don't separate (break) people from their habits.

You only break habits. Or you help people break their habits. "Habit" must be the object of the verb "break", if you choose to use the word "break".


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## yakor

Packard said:


> "I break people of their bad habits". "I try to break..."





dojibear said:


> These bold phrases don't work.
> 
> You don't break people.
> 
> You only break habits. .. "Habit" must be the object of the verb "break", if you choose to use the word "break".


 Two different opinions. 
What about the use of the phrasal verb "to train out"
-I trained out my dog from the habit of jumping onto me. 
--I trained out my dog of the habit of jumping onto me. 
- I trained out my dog of jumping onto me.


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## dojibear

I've never heard (or read) "train out". Maybe some people use that phrase, but I haven't heard it.

When talking about habits, people or dogs "get into a habit" and "get out of the habit".

But I haven't seen "out" combined with "train".


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## yakor

dojibear said:


> When talking about habits, people or dogs "get into a habit" and "get out of the habit".


-I can't get my dog out of the habit of jumping onto me at meeting. 
-I can't get out of the habit to read books up to the late night.


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## yakor

dojibear said:


> I've never heard (or read) "train out". Maybe some people use that phrase, but I haven't heard it.
> 
> When talking about habits, people or dogs "get into a habit" and "get out of the habit".
> 
> But I haven't seen "out" combined with "train".


In my thread "have the/a colour",  Myridon writes "My elementary school teachers tried *to trained *us* out *of using "gotten" (that was only a few years after they stopped trying* to train* people *out *of being left-handed) so it sounds "bad" to me." The verb "train out" interested me.


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## yakor

Could one use "teach out" instead of "train out"?
"My elementary school teachers tried *to teach *us* out *of using "gotten" (that was only a few years after they stopped trying* to teach *people *out *of being left-handed)"


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## london calling

yakor said:


> Could one use "teach out" instead of "train out"?
> "My elementary school teachers tried *to teach *us* out *of using "gotten" (that was only a few years after they stopped trying* to teach *people *out *of being left-handed)"


I've never come across it used that way. Where did you find this?


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## yakor

london calling said:


> I've never come across it used that way. Where did you find this?


Nowhere. I just thought that the verbs "train out" and "teach out" could mean almost the same. (one-for animal and sportsmen and another for students and just people)


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## Packard

Yo can “condition” behavior. You can condition yourself to behave in a certain way under certain conditions. 

“I used to say ‘yeah’ when I should’ve said ‘yes’, but through negative reinforcement I managed to condition that behavior out”. 

While the above is OK, it sounds a bit forced.


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## yakor

dojibear said:


> You only break habits. Or you help people break their habits. "Habit" must be the object of the verb "break", if you choose to use the word "break".


*-*He is breaking the law.
-He always breaks our talking.


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## yakor

dojibear said:


> Is "he" a dog? We use sentence 1 with animals, but not people.


Do you mean that  *-She can't train her dog out of its bad habits. *is OK to use?
Do you mean that the phrasal verb "train out" is used sometimes with animals?


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## dojibear

yakor said:


> *-*He is breaking the law.
> -He always breaks our talking.





dojibear said:


> You don't break "doing something".


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## yakor

What about the verb "train out"?
I can't train my dog out of barking at people.
I can't train out my dog to bark at people.


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## Ponyprof

It's not train out.

*I can't train my dog* out of barking.

*I can't train my dog* to stop barking.

*I can't train my dog* for agility.


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## yakor

Ponyprof said:


> It's not train out.
> 
> *I can't train my dog* for agility.


*She wants her dog to give paw. But she can't train her dog for it out of /because of the habit to bite hands.* (out of=because of)


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## owlman5

yakor said:


> I can't train my dog out of barking at people.


This sentence sounds reasonably normal to me, yakor. I have probably heard other people refer to _training an animal out of doing something._

However, people often use a different structure to express the idea: _to train an animal not to do something/to stop doing something: I'm training my dog not to bark at people. I can't train my dog to stop barking at people._


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## Florentia52

yakor said:


> *She wants her dog to give paw. But she can't train her dog for it out of /because of the habit to bite hands.* (out of=because of)


There are a number of errors in these sentences. Also, it's unclear what exactly the two options are in your second sentence. I presume they are these:

But she can't train her dog for it out of the habit to bite hands.
But she can't train her dog for it because of the habit to bite hands.

In any case, they're both wrong. You might be able to construct a sentence around "because of the dog's habit..." but it wouldn't make much sense without some explanation.


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## yakor

Florentia52 said:


> There are a number of errors in these sentences.


Which ones? Let me correct them myself.
*She wants her dog could give the paw.
 But she can't train her dog for it out of its habit to bite hands. *
But she can't train her dog for it because of its habit to bite hands.
Two sentences (two options) tell the same. I think they make sense. Why not?


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## yakor

owlman5 said:


> This sentence sounds reasonably normal to me, yakor. I have probably heard other people refer to _training an animal out of doing something._


Do you mean that the phrasal verb "train out" exists? Which verbs have the same meaning?


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## GreenWhiteBlue

yakor said:


> *She wants her dog could give the paw.
> But she can't train her dog for it out of its habit to bite hands. *



I'm sorry, but neither of these sentences is right.  I also have never heard of "train out" as  phrasal verb.  On the other hand, one can train a dog -- either to do something, or out of doing something.


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## owlman5

yakor said:


> Do you mean that the phrasal verb "train out" exists?


Yes. As I mentioned earlier,  I have probably heard it a few times:_ He managed to train his dog out of jumping up on people._



yakor said:


> Which verbs have the same meaning?


I have heard the phrase _to break an animal/somebody of doing something: He broke the animal of peeing in the house._

The other common ways to express the idea are: (1) _to train an animal not to do something: I am training my dog not to bark at people. _(2) _to train an animal to stop doing something: I trained my dog to stop bolting away when I let him off his leash._


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## yakor

GreenWhiteBlue said:


> I'm sorry, but neither of these sentences is right.  I also have never heard of "train out" as  phrasal verb.  On the other hand, one can train a dog -- either to do something, or out of doing something.


Is "train out of" a phrasal verb?


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## yakor

owlman5 said:


> _ I trained my dog to stop bolting away when I let him off his leash._


Thanks for the examples. Could one say
- I train out my dog from barking at people.
-I train out my dog of barking at people.


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## owlman5

You're welcome, yakor. You need to change the word order, which suggests to me that _train out _probably isn't a phrasal verb: _I trained my dog out of barking at people. _


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## yakor

owlman5 said:


> You're welcome, yakor. You need to change the word order, which suggests to me that _train out _probably isn't a phrasal verb: _I trained my dog out of barking at people. _


OK! So, finally 
1)"out" never goes together or right after the verb "train". 
2) Instead of the compound  preposition "out of",  one could use "from"
-  _I trained my dog* from *barking at people. _


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## owlman5

yakor said:


> 1)"out" never goes together or right after the verb "train".


Right.



yakor said:


> 2) Instead of the compound preposition "out of", one could use "from"
> - _I trained my dog* from *barking at people_


This sounds odd. I recommend that you avoid _from _in your remarks about training your dog not do something.


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## Roxxxannne

"I trained my dog not to bark at people" is a good alternative.


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## Ponyprof

Train out is not a phrasal verb.


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## GreenWhiteBlue

yakor said:


> Is "train out of" a phrasal verb?



No.  Just because a verb is followed by one or more prepositions does not make it a phrasal verb.  Are you sure that you understand the concept of phrasal verbs?


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## yakor

GreenWhiteBlue said:


> Are you sure that you understand the concept of phrasal verbs?


Yes, I sure. I know what the phrasal verb is.


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