# وادي غويب العطشانة



## heraldland

Hello everybody!
I need help!
There's a wadi named وادي غويب العطشانة (Wādī Ghuwayb al ‘Aţshānah) in Jordan. I can't find the translation of the word غويب .It does look like the word غريب ( ghurayb) which means 'strange', as an adjective and 'stranger', as a noun (according to a google translator). From which root comes the word غويب? If it would mean 'stranger', and if as it seems,العطشانة means 'thirsty', this place would mean 'the wadi, or the valley of the thirsty strangers'?. The Google translator does not accept this word and proposes me a translation from the word غريب ( ghurayb) instead. Does anyone can help? Thanks so much!


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## shafaq

What about "thirsty copse/s valley" .


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## heraldland

Interesting, but I'm looking for the original meaning of the word غويب. I'm trying to make a relation in the phrase. In  غويب, there's apparently no any relation with 'copse/s'. Would ghuwayb (غويب) be a former form of ghuraib (غريب), which would have been distorted along generations, and which meant 'strangers' or 'foreigners' as the translation does suggest, concerning the noun (not the adjective)? The word غويب as such  is not recognized in any translations, but rather offers the translation of غريب instead.


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## abdulwahid

Can it be diminutive?


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## heraldland

?? No idea...


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## analeeh

غويب looks like a diminutive of غابة which means forest. I agree with the copse translation without any further information. 

غريب incidentally is pronounced ghariib. ghurayb exists in the place name Abu Ghrayb where it's sometimes explained as meaning small crows.


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## heraldland

I know  that ghurab means crow. May be there's a relation with ghurayb. There are several places, in Saudi Arabia, in Egypt, too, called of this name, even with a little difference in the spelling. Sometimes, English translates as raven, also. But I prefer to be prudent. I would find an answer with the inhabitants of this place in Jordan, or maybe with historians knowing this place.


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## heraldland

I have found a site named Ain al Ghuwayba, which, according to the suggested translation, would mean 'spring of the grove'. If ghuwayb and ghuwayba are of the same root, then the name وادي-غويب-العطشانة would clearly mean 'wadi of the dry grove'. But is it the case?


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## analeeh

'Grove' is a near-synonym of 'copse'. _Ghuwaybah_ is another possible way of forming the diminutive seen in _ghuwayb_.


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## heraldland

Agreed!


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## fdb

According to the classic dictionaries, ʻaṭšāna can be fem. sing. or masc. plur. of ̒ʻaṭšān “thirsty”. Thus, wādī ghuwaybi l-ʻaṭšāna could conceivably mean “valley of the small grove of the thirsty men”. I am afraid that none of the other suggestions made so far in this thread is grammatically possible.


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## shafaq

shafaq said:


> What about "thirsty *copse/s* valley" .


To me it isn't diminutive of غابة but  of غاب the plural  . I think that is    why  it isn't  الغويبة and adjective  is  العطشانة . I had signaled that by "*copse/s*" .


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## heraldland

It seems, in the google translator, that  غاب  means  'missed', or 'vanished'. So, if it is a diminutive of  غاب , what would the whole mean? If العطشانة is 'thirsty', it means 'parched' as well. Would the whole mean_ 'valley (or wadi) of the parched copse'_, or_ 'valley of the (small) grove of thirsty (men)'_ as proposed here? I see that the Nabatean letters for 'r' and 'w' look similar, and that the same 'r' and 'w' in Arabic are similar as well. Would there be the possibility that, if both come from an Aramean origin, there would have been a change in time, so that غويب would have replaced غريب ? Let's not forget that the question does concern a place at the north of Petra, around Dana reserve, in the Nabatean land.


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## fdb

There are multiple problems here.

First: google translator is useless for Arabic. I suggest you forget all about it.

Second: al-ʻaṭšāna is determined (it has the article al-), so “parched  copse” is grammatically impossible.

Third: Place names are part of the living spoken language. You cannot explain them as misreadings of the script.


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## heraldland

That's clear! I was worrying about google translator. Then, if there weren't errors in the process of time, your suggestion, “valley of the small grove of the thirsty men” sounds intelligible and makes sense. It does not differ much from what I have proposed in the main question of this thread, 'the wadi, or the valley of the thirsty strangers'.

But instead of غريب, which would mean 'strangers' as a noun, and 'strange' as an adjective, you propose 'thirsty' in the sense of 'thirsty men'. The whole makes sense, indeed. But if there weren't  misreadings of the script in times, what does the word ' غويب' mean by itself?

Analeeh says that _Ghuwaybah_ is another possible way of forming the diminutive seen in _ghuwayb, _which mean_ 'grove'._ I think you make the relation, then?

Well. I'm  looking back at the whole thread. It seems that the whole translation, which makes sense, is, as says fdb, (I quote): _“valley of the small grove of the thirsty men”._ The word 'copse' for 'small grove' seems to be correct as well. This thread is quite interesting for the analysis. Thanks all!


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## Ibn Nacer

shafaq said:


> To me it isn't diminutive of غابة but of غاب the plural


I wanted to talk about this...

- It seems there is a rule*** that says if the noun has a ة then the diminutive keeps this ة so according to this rule the word غويب can not be the diminutive of the word غابة... But perhaps there are execeptions ?

- I also thought the word غاب, some say it's a collective noun... But the root of this word is غيب not غوب, right ? In this case the diminutive should be غُيَيْبٌ  not غُوَيْبٌ, right ? (the word غاب would be originally غَيَبٌ not غَوَبٌ).

Look for example this passage from "A Grammar of the Arabic Language" by Wright :






However I read that the letter و is often changed into ي but I do not know if this rule is correct, *what do you think* ?

*
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*​***See this for example (source : الفصل السادس - التصغير) :



> أما إذا كان الاسم مختوماً بتاء التأنيث ، فإنها لا تؤثر عليه عند التصغير .
> 
> مثل : شجرة شجيرة ، بقرة بقيرة ، تمرة تميرة .
> 
> …
> 
> ما يعامل معاملة الثلاثي
> 
> 
> من الأسماء ما كانت حروفها الأصلية ثلاثية أحرف ، غير أنها لحقها تاء التأنيث ، أو ألف التأنيث المقصورة أو الممدودة ، أو الألف والنون الزائدتان أو كانت مزيدة ولكنها جمع تكسير على وزن أفعال .
> 
> فإنها تعامل عند التصغير معاملة الاسم الثلاثي ، فيضم أوله ويفتح ثانيه ويزاد بعده ياء ساكنة
> 
> مثل : ثمرة ثميرة ، غرفة غريفة ، شجرة شجيرة ، وردة وريدة .
> 
> حبلى حبيلى ، نعمى نعيمى ، سلمى سليمى ، عطشى عطيشى .
> 
> حمراء حميراء ، سوداء سويداء ، عرجاء عريجاء ، عوراء عويراء .
> 
> سلطان سليطان ، مرجان مريجان ، نعمان نعيمان ، حمدان حميدان .
> 
> أصحاب أصيحاب ، أنهار أنيهار ، أقمار أقيمار ، أفراس أفيراس .



Or this passage from "A Grammar of the Arabic Language" by Wright :






Or this passage from "Grammaire arabe" par Silvestre de Sacy :


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## heraldland

Thanks Ibn Nacer for this analysis.
I do not know Arabic at all!
I wanted to know the origin and meaning of the name of the place called وادي غويب العطشانة (Wādī Ghuwayb al ‘Aţshānah) in Jordan. So, what do you think of the analysis of the other posts above, and the conclusion of those ideas, that is, _“valley (or wadi) of the small grove (or of the copse) of the thirsty (men)”?
_
According to the rule you cite,_ "the diminutive keeps this ة so according to this rule the word غويب can not be the diminutive of the word غابة... But perhaps there are execeptions ?", d_o you think of a certain meaning of the word غويب ? A suggestion?


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## fdb

I think Ibn Nacer has raised some very valid points. Place names do not always have an obvious etymology; many are clearly pre-Arabic.


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## heraldland

I don't know what to think about all of that. If these are interesting points, it would be worthy of note. I thought we had found a solution to the problem, but we never know...


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## Ibn Nacer

Salut,

Oui il semblerait qu'il ne soit pas évident de trouver le sens et l’étymologie des noms de lieux surtout que j'ai vu sur certaines pages (exemples : ici ou là) que cet endroit est appelé de différentes manières : _Wadi Ghuweib, Wadi al Ghuwayb, Wadi al Ghawba, Wadi el Ghauba, Wādī Ghuweib, Wādī al Ghawbā, Wādī el Ghauba..._

Ceci donnerait plusieurs possibilités d'analyse...

Sinon pour l'instant je n'ai trouvé le mot غويب dans aucun des dictionnaires que j'ai consultés (ce qui n'est pas étonnant s'il s'agit d'un diminutif)... Les sens que vous avez donnés dans ce fil semblent indiquer que ce serait le diminutif de غابة ou plutôt de غاب mais cela contredit certaines règles de morphologie que j'ai citées dans mon message précédent...

Ceci dit comme je disais "_However I read that the letter _و_ is often changed into _ي_ but I do not know if this rule is correct, *what do you think* ?_"

Voici le passage que j'ai lu (source : Nouvelle grammaire arabe par Augustin Périer) :





Si on applique la règle à غاب (_qui s'écrirait à l'origine (avant transformation) comme ceci :_ غَيَبٌ) on obtient غُيَيْبٌ (ghu*y*ayb) mais si ensuite on change la lettre ي en و on obtient bien غُوَيْبٌ (ghu*w*ayb) qui est le mot qui nous concerne.

*Mais reste à savoir si cette règle est correcte...*

*...*


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## heraldland

Merci, Ibn Nacer.
Pas facile de trouver l'origine d'un nom géographique. C'est dommage. Si, comme dit fdb, les noms de lieux n'ont pas une étymologie évidente, et que beaucoup de ces noms sont pré-arabes, ça complique les choses!


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## Ibn Nacer

Oui effectivement ça complique les choses...


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