# Straight/ right?



## ThomasK

Can I ask if there is a link between the two words in your language(s)? Or between _justice_ and _straight_? Do they have a common stem for example?


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## niernier

Yes there's a link between straight and right in Tagalog. A good example is Pnoy's "tuwid na daan", a movement for good governance which means "righteous path", but can also mean "straight path". Tuwid can both mean right and straight.

_Hustisya _and _deretso_, both borrowed from Spanish are used to mean justice and straight. However, In ordinary Tagalog conversations, deretso has its meaning limited only to "to go/keep straight on" or "to go right to the point". Deretsa and derekta, also means "to go right to the point". I believe there's no connection on the stems of _justice _and _straight_, unless you see otherwise. 

Additionally, the other meaning of deretso which is "right/privilege" as in derechos humanos(human rights) is still in use in other Philippine languages but not in Tagalog.


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## DotterKat

If you mean straight and right in the sense of being correct, just, equitable, forthright, etc. then the common stem is *tuwid* as indicated above. I would use the affix *ma-* for the Tagalog translation.

Examples:

*Matuwid* ang kanyang pakikitungo sa akin.
He is _forthright_ / _candid_ / _straightforward_ in his dealings with me.

*Matuwid* ang hatol ng hukom.
The judge's verdict is _just_ / _equitable_ / _fair_.

The linguistic relation between justice and straight is a bit trickier. They share a common affix (*ka-*) but not the same stem, though both stems can mean the same.

Justice is *katarungan*, the stem is _tarong_ (Visayan).
Straight is *katuwiran* (in the sense of being straight or _pagiging matuwid_, not katuwiran in the sense of a reason or reasoning), the stem is _tuwid_.

Both katarungan and katuwiran use ka- as an affix, but have different stems. However, both these stems _tuwid_ and _tarong_ (in Visayan) mean straight.

Finally, human rights is (mga) *karapatang pantao*. As indicated above, derechos humanos is Spanish and not Tagalog. Certain populations, especially those in Zamboanga, speak chabacano and they would probably use the Spanish term.


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## ThomasK

This is very interesting, thank you! Now, I'd like to ask some extra questions, or add some notes. 

1. The _*derechos*_/...  are indeed loans from Spanish, but now - thanks to you - I find out that "justus" originally meant : upright...
2. I remembered the word *'tawid*" in Arabic, so I thought, but it turned out to be spelt "*tawheed*", and seems to refer to monotheism, so I first read, but then I also found this reference to "tawheed" and justice... Could it be some kind of a loan from Arabic?  


> Allah informed us that He sent the Messengers and revealed the Books for people to establish justice. The greatest form of justice is Tawheed, which is its spearhead and backbone, and Shirk is injustice. (...)." [Soorah Luqman (31): 13]


 
What DK add is challenging: could that _tawheed_ reference still hold then? I suppose not... 

The _justice/ straight_ links: wow, interesting. But what is the effect of the affix? What is the meaning? 

Human rights: there we have the _ka_- again, but how about the -_rapatang (pantao)? _


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## DotterKat

(from TK):
".....But what is the effect of the affix? What is the meaning? "

We are coming close to going off-topic, but I will add that the *ka-* affix has many uses (including indicating the superlative degree of comparison), but in this particular case (*ka*rapat*an* and *ka*tuwir*an*)  *ka*- + stem + *-an*  expresses the _essential nature of a thing_.

(from TK):
"Human rights: there we have the _ka_- again, but how about the -_rapatang (pantao)?_"

The root of karapatan is *dapat* or even *marapat *(something that is proper, right, something that ought to be). As you may have already noticed, the root word in Tagalog undergoes a lot of modification when affixes are added (thus your misapprehension that the root is _-rapatang_). Finally, the *-ng* suffix is added at the end of karapatan to indicate the possessive case.  In English we can say either "human rights" or "rights of humans" (albeit the former is far more common),  but in a _very strict sense_ _*karapatang pantao *_translates more accurately to "rights *of *humans" precisely because the suffix *-ng *indicates possession, just as *of *also indicates possession.


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## ThomasK

Thanks ! You know, I did not wish to go off-topic, but I hoped to hear something 'useful', relevant -- and I did, though indeed it is not quite about 'right', etc.


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## niernier

I totally forgot the katarungan and katuwiran! Being a Filipino myself, I have not put a thought of dissecting katarungan, because if you get the root word tarung, any Tagalog speaker won't know what this means. So doing a little research, it turns out that that tarung is a Visayan word and is equivalent to "tuwid" in Tagalog. What DotterKat added spiced up the connection between justice and straight. But when I heard the word katuwiran, the first thing that sprung to my mind is _reason_, because essentially, katuwiran by itself means _reason_. 

Remember that katarungan(_justice_) and katuwiran(_reason_) are both Tagalog words, having a root word with the same meaning which is _straight_. The only peculiarity in the word katarungan, is that it uses a Visayan root word tarung which is tuwid(_straight) _in Tagalog. So there you have the connection as pointed out by DK. Nice! 



ThomasK said:


> This is very interesting, thank you! Now, I'd like to ask some extra questions, or add some notes.
> 
> 1. The _*derechos*_/...  are indeed loans from Spanish, but now - thanks to you - I find out that "justus" originally meant : upright...
> 2. I remembered the word *'tawid*" in Arabic, so I thought, but it turned out to be spelt "*tawheed*", and seems to refer to monotheism, so I first read, but then I also found this reference to "tawheed" and justice... Could it be some kind of a loan from Arabic?
> 
> 
> What DK add is challenging: could that _tawheed_ reference still hold then? I suppose not...


 It's tuwid not tawid. But there's tawid in Tagalog. It means "to cross"


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## ThomasK

I am sorry about the 'tuwid'/ 'tawid' confusion. I sometimes venture upon very peculiar 'mind flights', I know, but it is up to you to... stop me. Thanks !


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## DotterKat

A final thought on this thread regarding tuwid vs. tawhid. I don't find it inconceivable at all that some phonological drift has occurred through the ages on a word borrowed from another culture. There is a significant Muslim population in the Philippines and neighboring Indonesia has the largest Muslim population in the world.  The cross cultural meaning of two words that essentially refer to concepts of straightness, the straight and narrow, oneness, or  singularity is not easy to disregard. I find it entirely plausible that some language blending and drifting occurred with regards tuwid and tawhid.


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## mataripis

i want to add my comment.  Tuwid is straight (not necessarily right or correct)/  Right is going to right direction or in proper direction.  In Tagalog  right can be expresses as " tama" (maybe from Ellinika "Themis" =Justice)   and Straight is matuwid or walang pagliko(no  change in direction).


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## miguelomanie

DotterKat said:


> The root of karapatan is *dapat* or even *marapat *(something that is proper, right, something that ought to be). As you may have already noticed, the root word in Tagalog undergoes a lot of modification when affixes are added (thus your misapprehension that the root is _-rapatang_). Finally, the *-ng* suffix is added at the end of karapatan to indicate the possessive case.  In English we can say either "human rights" or "rights of humans" (albeit the former is far more common),  but in a _very strict sense_ _*karapatang pantao *_translates more accurately to "rights *of *humans" precisely because the suffix *-ng *indicates possession, just as *of *also indicates possession.



I am no Filipino grammar expert, but don't we also use the "ng" to link a noun and its adjective? For example, "babae*ng* maganda" and "maganda*ng *babae" both mean "beautiful woman." That being said, I reckon that "karapatan" (right) here is the noun, while "pantao" (human) is the adjective. So, I believe that "human rights" is an appropriate translation of "karapatan pantao."


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## tatoearashiga

"babaeng maganda" does not sound right; I don't know but that is just me.


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## mataripis

tatoearashiga said:


> "babaeng maganda" does not sound right; I don't know but that is just me.


  it is informal to say "Babaeng maganda". just say "maganda siya"  (In female)) and  "makisig siya" ( in male). Straight is "Matuwid" and Right is " Marapat".  1.) It is better to say it in straight manner.( Higit na mabuti kung sabihin mo iyan sa matuwid na paraan. )   2.)  It is right(appropriate) to follow the given rules. (marapat na sundin ang nakatalagang patakaran.)


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## mataripis

ThomasK said:


> Can I ask if there is a link between the two words in your language(s)? Or between _justice_ and _straight_? Do they have a common stem for example?


Justice in Tagalog is "Katarungan"  and it is related to  wisdom (karunungan). I think  the "rungan" in katarungan is "Dunung" or "Dungan"(from  dangan- it should be/ by the laws). While  straight is  "Matuwid"  .These 2 words , katarungan and Matuwid  seems very close. In ethnic Dumaget ( an older form of Tagalog), Justice is Kamatoden(truth/justice) and  Straight or righteousness is "Katoweden". In Bisaya, also an archaic form of Tagalog, There is a word "matud"!   when  comparing these words,  all have the same root word!  (Dumaget: kamatoden= kamatowden= matowd)/(Tagalog:katuwiran= tuwid=matuwid)(Bisaya: Matud and it is very related to matuwid of Tagalog).And i think that Katarungan and Katuwiran are interchangeable forms of justice and righteousness. The indonesian word  "Tawhid"  is also related to "Taw-hed" of Dumaget and "Tawid" of Tagalog with the meaning   " forgiven" or "let it pass through"!


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