# ابابيل



## mkh

Hi, What is the meaning of أَبَابِيل (ababil) in the Koran surah Fil? وَ أَرْسلَ عَلَيهِمْ طيراً أَبَابِيلَ . May طيراً أَبَابِيلَ be "chicken pox" ? Chicken pox -type of disease characterized by red itchy blisters on the skin- in Persian is آبله مرغان (ableh morghan). In this way طیر (tair means chicken) is equal to مرغ in Per means bird or chicken, and ابابيل is plural form of آبله.


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## cherine

I checked several interpretations of the Qur'an, and they all give أبابيل the meaning of: many, or "in consecutive/many groups", or other similar meanings.
Nothing about the disease except for the fact that when those birds hit someone with the stones they carried, that person gets الجدري (not sure about the name in English, but it's a skin disease).
As for the singular, there are different opinions:
1- the singular is إبالة (ibála) or abúl أبول .
2- there is not singular.


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## Mahaodeh

Another note, طير means any bird, from the eagle to the humming bird including but not limited to chickens.  A chicken in Arabic is دجاجة.


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## mkh

Hi, 





cherine said:


> ...Nothing about the disease except for the fact that when those birds hit someone with the stones they carried, that person gets الجدري (not sure about the name in English, but it's a skin disease)...


 مرغ in Per. is said to any bird also. I translate طیر to chicken, because of disease of "chicken pox" in Eng. and "آبله مرغان" in Per. and "طیرا ابابیل" in Koran and الجدري المائي in current Arabic.


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## cherine

I'm sorry I don't understand what you mean. 

But طير أبابيل has nothing to do with neither the chicken nor the disease.


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## mkh

I say, may the meaning of this:  "وَ أَرْسلَ عَلَيهِمْ طيراً أَبَابِيلَ" be this:  "َAnd sent against them chicken pox" ?


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## cherine

As I said before, the answer is *no*.


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## mkh

There is no definite story about اصحاب فيل as you can see here http://www.gawaher.com/pages/qutb-ar/105.html                                                      وتختلف الروايات هنا في تحديد نوع هذه الجماعات من الطير , وأشكالها , وأحجامها , وأحجام هذه  الحجارة ونوعها وكيفية فعلها . كما أن بعضها يروي أن الجدري والحصبة ظهرا في هذا العام في مكة


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## cherine

There is no definite story. But I'm not talking about stories, I'm talking about language.
Again, أبابيل *does not* mean chicken pox.

What happened to the people who were hit by the stones? Only God knows. So please, let's not mix stories with religion with language, that's a bad mixture.


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## Mahaodeh

الجدري is not chicken pox, it's smallpox; الحصبة is the measles; whatever it's called in English or Persian, it's totally unrealted in Arabic.

Also, if you continue reading the same article that you have quoted a line of half of, you would find that it mentions the following:

1. What you quoted is the opinion of _some_ scholars.
2. Even those scholars still maintain that it was birds or other flying creatures that were referred to as "birds" that came in enormous numbers carrying little pieces of mud stone that they threw on the army to infect them.

Hence, no matter what the interpretations where (which is out of the scope of the forum) they all agree that طيرا literally means "birds" or any other "flying creatures" regardless of size or classification as long as they can fly (chickens, by the way, don't fly), and that أبابيل indicates large numbers of them coming in flocks.

Maybe آبله مرغان is derived from a twisted translation of طيرا أبابيل?  We know for sure that it not related in Arabic.


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## mkh

Hi, 





cherine said:


> ... What happened to the people who were hit by the stones? ...


 If you derive stone from سجيل , it is clear that the word of سجيل is Arabized form of Per. سنگ و گل (stone & clay), that you can see in many references such as  http://islamweb.net/ver2/Archive/printarticle.php?id=82442 , claim that سجيل is "هي فارسية، ومعناها: الحجر من الطين". So If سجيل in سوره فيل is a loan word from Per. so may exist other loan word in that surah such as ابابيل that may be plural form of آبله meaning chicken or small pox.


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## cherine

NO.
If the way you're thinking were correct, then the whole text could also be Persian.
Or if we apply this same "rule" the other way round, then many Persian texts would also be deemed loans from Arabic.

Please, try to learn more about Arabic before running to such assumptions.

Again,
أبابيل means many or, as Maha said: 


> indicates large numbers of them coming in flocks


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## mkh

Ok, 





Mahaodeh said:


> ...they all agree that طيرا literally means "birds" or any other "flying creatures"...


 We have some historical facts in 570 CE or عام الفيل about Yemen, Ethiopia and Babylon. Http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khosrau_I says "About 570 the Himyarite dynasts of Yemen, who had been subdued by the Ethiopians of Axum, applied to Khosrau I (انوشیروان) for help. The Emperor Khosrau sent a fleet with a small army under Vahriz, who expelled the Ethiopians. From that time till the conquests by Islam, Yemen was dependent on Persia, and a Persian governor resided here.". In this case may طیرا ابابیل mean طیرا بابلی (Babylonian arrow), because Babylon was a territory of Sassanian dynasty. And ابرهه was from حبشه (Ethiopia).


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## clevermizo

I think in discussions like this, a rule of parsimony applies. طيرا أبابيل so simply means _droves_ or _flocks_ of birds, and it makes sense in the context. Why search for another derivation unless there is a pressing reason to do so? If you try hard enough, you may find a derivation for anything from any language.

My only question about this verse is the syntax. Why is it وأرسل عليهم طيرا أبابيل and not وأرسل عليهم أبابيلَ طيرٍ? （That should be _Tayrin_, but the tanwiin ul-kasr doesn't show up well.)


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## cherine

clevermizo said:


> My only question about this verse is the syntax. Why is it وأرسل عليهم طيرا أبابيل and not وأرسل عليهم أبابيلَ طيرٍ?


As far as I know, أبابيل is an adjective. Let's replace it with a more "common" word:
وأرسل عليهم طيرًا كثيرًا
Would you prefer it to be وأرسل عليهم كثيرَ طيرٍ ? Not that it's wrong, but -for a reason I cannot explain- I prefer the first one


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## clevermizo

cherine said:


> As far as I know, أبابيل is an adjective. Let's replace it with a more "common" word:
> وأرسل عليهم طيرًا كثيرًا
> Would you prefer it to be وأرسل عليهم كثيرَ طيرٍ ? Not that it's wrong, but -for a reason I cannot explain- I prefer the first one



Your explanation makes sense - I was confused because I thought أبابيل was a noun - and it even looks like a plural noun.


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## cherine

It is in plural  The problem -among linguists- was to determine whether it has a singular form, and if yes, what would it be. (Check my post # 2).

Why the plural with طير? Because Tayr is a collective noun, so -I think- it can be treated as a plural.

On a second thought, maybe أبابيل is حال ? I'll need to check a reference first, but I thought I record my thought before I forget it


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## elroy

cherine said:


> Why the plural with طير? Because Tayr is a collective noun, so -I think- it can be treated as a plural.


 On the contrary, collective nouns are treated as singular nouns.  Would you say بقر كبيرات?   


> On a second thought, maybe أبابيل is حال ?


 That sounds more likely.


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## cherine

Ok, I'm still not sure about طير and the plural  

But, regarding grammar, abaabiil is an adjective. Check this very interesting site.


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## elroy

Now I don't think I'm sure of anything anymore. 

I _knew_ I shouldn't have butted into a discussion of a Qur'anic word.


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## knight_2004

mkh said:


> Hi, What is the meaning of أَبَابِيل (ababil) in the Koran surah Fil? وَ أَرْسلَ عَلَيهِمْ طيراً أَبَابِيلَ . May طيراً أَبَابِيلَ be "chicken pox" ? Chicken pox -type of disease characterized by red itchy blisters on the skin- in Persian is آبله مرغان (ableh morghan). In this way طیر (tair means chicken) is equal to مرغ in Per means bird or chicken, and ابابيل is plural form of آبله.



First of all, your efforts in analyzing Arabic words, examining the roots and probing the sources and origins are much valued and encouraged. This is probably one of the best ways to become proficient in Arabic; even if you were a native Arabic speaker (may be you are.)

I am not going to add much to what cherine and Mahaodeh have said above, but I will try and get into more detail about the word [ABÁBÍL]. I won't get into interpretation or explanation of the Ayah as I limited my research to the word [ABÁBÍL].


[*ABÁBÍL*] (أبابيل) is an Arabic word. The word was well-known in Arabia before Quran; it was heard, spoken, and even used in poems. It was said that ABÁBÍL (أبابيل) was derived from the word [*EBL*] / [*EBeL*] (إبل) camels, and it was used with camels, horses, and others, for exaggeration of numbers as in:

(*جاءت إبلك أبايبل*) Used for exaggeration. (Your camels came in huge numbers)
(*جاءت الخيل أبابيل*) (The horses came in humongous numbers) For exaggeration also.

There are also plenty of Arabic words that have the same origin as [*ABÁBÍL*] (from *EBL*) that mostly have the meaning of (Many, heavy, overcome, endurance, need, camels) as:

(رجل أبِل) [*ABeL*] An experienced camel shepherd.
(فلان أبَل) [*ABaL*] Has a hundred camels. Here, (أبل) means a hundred camels.
(رجل مؤبل) [*MO'BeL*] A man that his camels increased in number.
(بعير أبل) [*ABeL*] A healthy camel that has a lot of meat.
(ناقة أبلة) [*ABeLaH*] A blessed she-camel (with many births)
(أبل العشب) [*ABLa*] The grass has grown and got tall.
(جاء في ابالته وابلته) [*EBÁLaTeH*] and [*OBBoLLoTeH*] (أصحابه وقبيلته) He came with his friends and his tribe.
(أبلة) [*ABeLaH*] (حاجة) Need. (مالي إليك أبلة) I don't need you.

(ضغث على إبالة) [*EBÁLaH*] a proverb said when one if he had already many problems, debts, etc., and he just  
had more (here it means misfortune or grief on top of another).

(ألأبله) [*AL-ABaLaH*] Laziness as a result of eating too much.
(ألأبله) [*AL-ABaLaH*] also means heavy burden load or duty.

(لا يأتبل) [LA* YA'TaBeL*] when a man was asked why he was riding a camel while his father was walking; his 
answer was [ENNaHo LA *YA'TaBeL*] (إنه لا يأتبل) which means that his father was not able to sit still on a camel.
Also this phrase means that a person does not have the ability to take care of camels or has no experience in doing so. (Here it means endurance although it is related to working with camels.)

(أبلت الإبل) [*ABaLaT*] camels that get water from food (wet food stored in their stomaches,) instead of drinking water. A description of the camel’s endurance to survive without water for a long time.
Also, (أبل الرجل) [*ABaLa*] A man that lives with his wife, but does not go near her in bed, as said that ÁDaM (تأبل آدم) in a story that ÁDaM did not touch Eve for so and so years, because of his sadness for his son who was killed by his other son. It means also reclusion, or a man who dedicates himself to prayers, and leaves other things in life (materials, etc.)

(فالف اللّه بين السحاب فابلنا) [*ABeL*Na] We received heavy rain.
(وابل) [*WÁBeL*] means enormous numbers. When used with rain, it refers to the number of drops (enormous number of drops.)

The word [*EBL*] or [*EBeL*] (إبل) itself is a feminine word (هذه إبل); it means many camels whether they were males of females.. [EBL] has no singular form.


The word [*ABÁBÍL*] means swarms, groups of groups, squads of groups, separated groups of flocks that come from different directions, or from the same direction; one group after the other, following each other, etc., It means any or all of those combinations. In each case, it is used to indicate humongous numbers in groups.

The problem with [*ABÁBÍL*] was not the word itself. While Arabic linguistics agreed upon the meaning, Arabic grammarians were divided about the singular form for [*ABÁBÍL*], because the word has a plural meaning, and it sounds like a plural; and a singular form was not known and never heard-of in Arabia. So, grammarians were divided in categorizing the word as a plural-noun (إسم جمع) or a plural word (جمع).

Some grammarians said that the word is a plural-noun (إسم جمع), which has no singular form just like:

[*'aBaBÍD*] (عبابيد) a plural-noun (no singular form) which means groups of people that go in every direction; and
[*ShaMÁTtÍTt*] (*Shamateet*) (شماطيط) another plural-noun which means scattered chunks, or pieces.
And many other plural-nouns like *Sha'ÁRÍR* (شعارير) and *ShaÁLÍL* (شعاليل), etc. that has no singular form.

Other grammarians said that [*ABÁBÍL*] is a plural word (جمع), and may have a singular form by measurement (بالقياس) like:

ABÁBÍL --> *oBÓL* (أبول) as in *'oJÓL* (عجول، عجاجيل) from *'AJaJÍL*
ABÁBÍL --> *EBBÍL* (إبيل) as in *SiKKÍN*  (سكين، سكاكين) from *SaKaKÍN*
ABÁBÍL --> *ÍBÁL* (إيبال) as in *DÍNÁR* (دينار، دنانير) from *DaNÁNÍR*
ABÁBÍL --> *eBÁLaH* (إيبالة) as in *SiNNÁRaH* (صنارة، صنانير) from *SaNÁNÍR*

It should be noted that the singular form for [*ABÁBÍL*] (أبابيل) was not known; otherwise, those scholars would have agreed on one form. They have agreed on [*EBRÍQ*] (إبريق) which is the singular form of [*ABÁRÍQ*] (أباريق), where the word [*EBRÍQ*] (إبريق) is non-Arabic (أعجمية) or (Arabized word) (معربة), simply, because [*EBRÍQ*] and [*ABÁRÍQ*] were in actual use. On the other hand [*ABÁBÍL*] (أبابيل) is an original Arabic word, but it has no singular form. The above singular forms for [*ABÁBÍL*] were derived by measurement only. By doing the same, one can derive more singular forms by measurement (بالقياس) to other words like:

*ABÁBÍL* --> *ABBÓL* (أبول) as in:
*DaBBÓS* (دبوس، دبابيس) from *DaBÁBÍS*
*MaKKÓK* (مكوك، مكاكيك) from *MaKÁKÍK*

and also,
ABÁBÍL --> *eBÁL* (إبال) as in *DeRÁJ* (دراج، دراريج) from *DaRÁRÍJ*

So, [*ABÁBÍL*] is a plural-noun and has no singular; but the grammarians say, the measurement in Arabic is there to derive and find words when needed.




mkh said:


> .... In this case may طیرا ابابیل mean طیرا بابلی (Babylonian arrow), because Babylon was a territory of Sassanian dynasty. And ابرهه was from حبشه (Ethiopia).




The Arabs used the repetition of "*B*" and "*L*" in words to indicate messiness, unrest, disturbance, excitement, agitation, bobbery, etc., in sensual (حسّي) and in sensible (معنوي) meanings; as in the words:

1. Sensual meaning:
*BaLBaLa* (بلبل القوم) A group of people that got excited.
*BaLBaLaH* (بلبله في اللسان) A messiness in speech, or a person that has a problem in pronunciation.
*AL-BuLBuL* (البلبل) is a known bird that repeats scattered words without recognition.

2. Sensible meaning:
*AL-BiLBÁL* (البلبال): Feeling of premonition of one's future, or obsession in one's thoughts as a result of strong anxiety or worry.

The above indicates that [*ABÁBÍL*] has a similar sense of disturbance, agitation or excitement.


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## mkh

knight_2004 said:


> ...[*ABÁBÍL*] (أبابيل) is an Arabic word. The word was well-known in Arabia before Quran; it was heard, spoken, and even used in poems...


I searched for poems and found this one from رؤبة بن العجاج :
ومسهم ما مس أصحاب الفيل
ترميهم بحجارة من سجيل
ولعبت بهم *طـــير أبابـــــيل*
فصيروا مثل عصف مأكول ​In this poem the phrase of طیرا ابابیل exist too. It seems that ابابيل was used only for this event. But I don't know, when رؤبة بن العجاج did live? So, Please take some examples of using ابابيل in poems of before Koran, or before عام الفيل.
Thanks.


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## Josh_

There is an explanation of the word أبابيل , and more specifically طير أبابيل , in Edward Lane's Arabic-English Lexicon.  The lexicon is available online in pdf format.

Go here and open up page 46.  About three quarters down the first column is where the explanation begins, under the heading إبول , and continues onto the next column.  The explanation of طير أبابيل is in the second column.


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## knight_2004

mkh said:


> I searched for poems and found this one from رؤبة بن العجاج :
> ....
> In this poem the phrase of طیرا ابابیل exist too. It seems that ابابيل was used only for this event.



Your example is not a valid proof that the word (أبالبيل) was ONLY used with "certain" types of birds. The poem you mentioned was from (ألعصر الأموي); and borrowed the words directly from the Quran. All the poet did was to organize the words in different order. In any case, the peom is very poor even if it sounds like poem.

Here is a couple of examples:


من شعر معبد الخزاعي
كان معبد الخزاعي (من خزاعة) مشركا يوم أن قال هذه الأبيات لأبي سفيان عن جيش المسلمين بعد غزوة أحد،
أي أن معبد الخزاعي لم يعرف القرآن، وحتى لو كان يعرف القرآن، فبمجرد أن يفهم أبو سفيان المقصود من الأبيات ويعدل عن مشروعه في حرب المسلمين، يمكننا أن نقول أن هذه القصيدة هي من الشعر الجاهلي.
قال معبد وهو يستكثر جيش المسلمين:

كادت تهد من الأصوات راحلتي * إذ سألت الأرض بالجرد الأبابيل
تردي بأسد كرام لا تنابلة * عند اللقاء ولا ميل معازيل
فظلت عدوا أظن الأرض مائلة * لما سمو برئيس غير مخذول
.
.
.

The poet here was not affected by the Quran; and the poem was directed and said in front of Abu-Sufyan; both were not Muslims. So, the words of this poem are original, and the words reflect that the word [ABÁBÍL] was well-known and understood among Arabs before Quran.

------------------
Here is another example from Modern poems:

الشاعر حسين علي محمد في قصيدة ( "من إشراقات عمرو بن العاص")

 كانَ جوادُ "سُراقةَ" في الرَملِ يهوي ويغرقُ واللوحُ فيهِ أساورُ كسْرى
وخلْفي جيوشُ أبابيلَ تُمطرُني بالصَواعقِ ترصُدُ خطْوي


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## knight_2004

Josh_ said:


> Go here  and open up page 46.  About three quarters down the first column is where the explanation begins, under the heading إبول , and continues onto the next column.  The explanation of طير أبابيل is in the second column.



Thank you for the book. It is an excellent reference. I downloaded some chapters. I cannot believe that this is one man's work. It is incredible.

Thank you again,


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## mkh

You talk about singular form of ابابیل for sure!!! But if you refer to the original comments about ابابیل such as cherine notifies, you will find that there is no confidence about singular form of ابابیل:
و*هي جماع لا واحد لها،* مثل الشماطيط والعباديد ونحو ذلك. وزعم أبو عُبيدة معمر بن المثنى،* أنه لم ير أحداً يجعل لها واحداً*. وقال الفرّاء:* لم أسمع من العرب في توحيدها شيئاً*. قال: وزعم أبو جعفر الرُّؤَاسِيّ، وكان ثقة، أنه سمع أن واحدها: إبالة. وكان الكسائي يقول: سمعت النحويين يقولون: إبول، مثل العجول. قال: وقد سمعت بعض النحويين يقول: واحدها: أبيل.

In addition, some native Arabs believe that ابابیل and آبله -chicken pox or small pox or جدری -  have relation, such as محمد عبده.
And about تیر بابلی (Babylonian arrow) you can see part 1 of The Foreign Vocabulary  of the Qur'an .​


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## Ander

knight_2004 said:


> Thank you for the book. It is an excellent reference. I downloaded some chapters. I cannot believe that this is one man's work. It is incredible.
> 
> Thank you again,


 
Thanks to Josh for the book too. I knew the online dictionary but had forgotten about it.

Edward Lane could not finish the dictionary. The task was completed by his nephew Stanley Lane-Poole an orientalist himself.


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## Mahaodeh

mkh said:


> In addition, some native Arabs believe that ابابیل and آبله -chicken pox or small pox or جدری - have relation, such as محمد عبده.
> 
> 
> And about تیر بابلی (Babylonian arrow) you can see part 1 of The Foreign Vocabulary of the Qur'an .​


 
محمد عبدة believed that the birds infected the army with smallpox (smallpox is NOT chicken pox - chicken pox is harmless).  He did not link between آبلة and أبابيل.


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