# you're not allowed to sit in someone's lap



## Charlie Parker

Mes élèves en cours de français me demandent tout le temps s'ils peuvent travailler avec un(e) ami(e). Aujourd'hui ç'a été le chaos. J'ai vu une fille assise sur les genoux d'une autre. Elles ne travaillaient pas. Je voudrais leur dire : "You're allowed to work with a partner, but you're not allowed to sit in someone's lap." Voici quelques-unes to mes propositions :
_Tu peux travailler avec une partenaire / une amie, bien entendu, mais tu ne peux pas t'asseoir sur ses genoux. _(à une fille)
_Bien sûr que vous pouvez travailler avec votre amie, mais vous n'avez pas le droit d'être assises sur ses genoux. _(à toutes les filles de la classe)
_Vous pouvez certainement travailler avec vos amies, mais je vous défends de vous asseoir sur leurs genoux._
Avez-vous des suggestions à me faire ? Je tiens à les connaître.


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## Guill

Charlie Parker said:


> Mes élèves en cours de français me demandent tout le temps s'ils peuvent travailler avec un(e) ami(e). Aujourd'hui ç'a été le chaos. *J'*ai vu une fille assise sur les genoux d'une autre. Elles ne travaillaient pas. Je voudrais leur dire : "You're allowed to work with a partner, but you're not allowed to sit in someone's lap." Voici quelques-unes to mes propositions :
> _Tu peux travailler avec une partenaire / une amie, bien entendu, mais tu ne peux pas t'asseoir sur ses genoux. _(à une fille)  *mais le "bien entendu" peut être omis, il fait un peu lourd je trouve.*
> _Bien sûr que vous pouvez travailler avec votre amie, mais vous n'avez pas le droit d'être assises sur ses genoux. _(à toutes les filles de la classe) *l'usage de "votre" implique que chacune des filles n'a qu'une seule amie. "Vos" me semble plus naturel.*
> _Vous pouvez certainement travailler avec vos amies, mais je vous défends de vous asseoir sur leurs genoux._*"défends" est une très bonne option, mais "certainement" voudrait dire que toi-même tu n'es pas sûr de ce que tu dis*
> Avez-vous des suggestions à me faire ? Je tiens à les connaître.



Pour reprendre le "défends" que j'aime bien : Vous pouvez travailler avec vos amies (respectives), mais je vous défends de vous asseoir sur leurs genoux.


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## Charlie Parker

Merci beaucoup Guill. Je vais leur dire ça demain, mais elles ne vont pas me comprendre. Alors, je vais le répéter en anglais et elles ne vont pas me comprendre non plus.


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## KaRiNe_Fr

Salut Charlie,

Il me venait plutôt ce genre de tournure : « On ne doit pas / Il est interdit de / s'asseoir sur les genoux de ses petits camarades ! » (nomého ! ça va pas la tête ? )


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## LART01

Charlie,
What is the difference between to siton someone's lap
 and to sit in someone's lap?

I always used only the 1st one


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## Nicomon

LART01 said:


> What is the difference between to sit on someone's lap and to sit in someone's lap?
> 
> I always used only the 1st one


 Hello, 

I would have thought the same thing.  My guess is that if you sit "in" someone's lap you're closer to the person's body, and "on", you're closer to his/her knees.  Am I close? 

Je dirais à peu près comme Karine :_ Il n'est pas permis de s'asseoir sur les genoux de ses camarades. 
_Autrement dit: _Les filles, je vous permets de travailler les unes *avec* les autres, mais pas les unes *sur* les autres. _


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## LART01

Nicomon said:


> Hello,
> 
> I would have thought the same thing. My guess is that if you sit "in" someone's lap you're closer to the person's body, and "on", you're closer to his/her knees. Am I close?
> 
> *I can live with that. Let's wait for an Anglophone to comment on it*
> 
> Je dirais à peu près comme Karine :_ Il n'est pas permis de s'asseoir sur les genoux de ses camarades. _
> Autrement dit: _Je vous permets de travailler les uns *avec* les autres, mais pas les uns *sur* les autres. _


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## Charlie Parker

Just after I posted I wondered whether I should've written "in someone's lap." I don't think there's any difference. If I had to guess, I might say that "on" is more correct. I looked under "lap" in my Oxford English Dictionary and it says "in or on a person's lap." Having said that, however, there is a clear distinction between "she was sitting on her friend's knees" and "she was sitting in her friend's lap." The latter phrase suggests a position closer to the body, but I don't think it has anything to do with the preposition. It has rather to do with the difference between "knees" and "lap." I'm not sure you can make such a distinction in French, can you?


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## Nicomon

But what about my theory of "in" being closer to the body and "on" closer to the knees?  Am I totally off, or does it make (a bit of) sense?


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## tmax

I will ..
sit in the living room on the sofa (= sit on the sofa in the living room; more natural but both correct)
sit in the car on the seat (= sit on the seat in the car; ")
sit on someone's lap (not in)


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## Charlie Parker

Yes, it certainly does make some sense, but I still think it has more to do with our very clear distinction between "knees," which might in fact mean the upper thighs, and "lap." For instance I can bounce a baby on my knees; I can't really do that it the baby's in my lap. Notice how I seem to be favouring "in"?


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## Charlie Parker

I'm afraid I can't agree with you tmax. "In someone's lap" is quite idiomatic. A seated person's lap does appear to be hollow or concave, hence "in." The sofa and the seat represent a flat plane, hence "on." I did, however, find far more examples of "on his lap" than "in his lap" on the internet. Then again, Monsieur Google is hardly the final arbiter in matters of English usage, or of French usage for that matter.


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## tmax

maybe "in" is ok in American English, but not in British English


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## Charlie Parker

What is your evidence for that, tmax? The Oxford English Dictionary is, after all, British. I have only the concise edition, but let me quote a few phrases: "in (or on) a person's lap," [here, the dictionary seems to favour "in" because it is listed first] "in the lap of the gods" "in the lap of luxury." Now, admittedly, these are figurative usages. Would a literal usage favour the preposition "in?" I don't know. It would be interesting to post this question on the English only forum.


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## tmax

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/lap?rskey=5Iop6b&result=1#m_en_gb0457260

just checked the oxford dictionary and it says sit on

*lap1(lap)*

*Pronunciation:*/lap/
*noun*


1 (usually *one's lap*) the flat area between the waist and knees of a seated person:_come and sit on my lap_


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## Charlie Parker

I don't mean to belabour the point, but here's a thread in the English only forum about a dog sitting in someone's lap. Several contributors are British (I'd better be careful here, of UK origin) and they don't seem to find anything objectional in the preposition "in."


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## tmax

*The boy looked with disgust at the dog, quiet now in Kelly's lap.*

Who's quite?

A) The dog
B) The boy
C) Could be both the boy and the dog

If you think the sentence is ambiguous, how would you amend it ?



In your link the author of the question misspells quiet with "quite" so I doubt his grammar is better than the Oxford Dictionary


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## LART01

Let's call it a truce!


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## Charlie Parker

I humbly bow before the authority of the Oxford Dictianary, "the world's most trusted dictionary's" we're told. I would, indeed, instinctively say "come and sit on my lap" to my grandson. Perhaps, as I suggested "on" is the literal sense while "in" is a figurative sense. The other examples in your source use "in" 
*fall (or drop) into someone's lap*
(of something desirable) be  acquired by or happen to someone without any effort being  made  on their part:_women fall at his feet , power falls into his lap_
*in someone's lap*
as someone's responsibility:_she dumped the problem in my lap_
*in the lap of the gods*
(of the success of a plan or event) depending on factors that one cannot control; open  to chance. 
*in the lap of luxury*
in conditions of great comfort and wealth.


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## tmax

600,000+ words 
not a bad dictionary at all!


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## Nicomon

Charlie Parker said:


> Yes, it certainly does make some sense, but I still think it has more to do with our very clear distinction between "knees," which might in fact mean the upper thighs, and "lap." For instance I can bounce a baby on my knees; I can't really do that it the baby's in my lap. Notice how I seem to be favouring "in"?


 Thank you, Charlie. I'm afraid I had missed a part of your post #8.  It's now crystal clear. 

And no, we don't usually make a distinction in French between _on someone's knees _and _in/on someone's lap_._ Lap_ can be translated as _giron_, which is defined as : 





> Partie du corps d’une personne en position assise, allant de la ceinture jusqu’aux genoux. Milieu, lieu où l’on se sent en sécurité. Le giron maternel, familial.


 However as far as I know, the word is mostly used in the second sense. 

_Cuisses_ is another option, but I can't say that I've heard very often :_ Viens t'assoir sur mes cuisses._ 

Lu : 





> It shall be unlawful [...] for any employee of such establishment:
> To sit *on* or *in *or *otherwise occupy* the lap of any patron of said establishmen


 C'est bien clair.


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## Punky Zoé

Bonjour,

La différence entre 'in' et 'on' pourrait-elle correspondre au fait d'être "totalement" sur les genoux, ou bien d'y être "à cheval" ? Je veux dire qu'un bébé ou un petit enfant peut reposer complètement sur les genoux (ou les cuisses), il serait lové "dans" le creux formé par les cuisses et le corps, alors qu'un enfant plus grand ou un adulte serait assis à cheval sur les genoux et les cuisses ?


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## Nicomon

Punky Zoé said:


> Bonjour,
> 
> La différence entre 'in' et 'on' pourrait-elle correspondre au fait d'être "totalement" sur les genoux, ou bien d'y être "à cheval" ? Je veux dire qu'un bébé ou un petit enfant peut reposer complètement sur les genoux (ou les cuisses), il serait lové "dans" le creux formé par les cuisses et le corps, alors qu'un enfant plus grand ou un adulte serait assis à cheval sur les genoux et les cuisses ?


 Salut Pounquie 

C'est ce que j'ai tenté (gauchement) d'expliquer dans mon post #6. Par exemple *Sit in* et *sit on*. 
On m'a dit dans le tuyau de l'oreille que... c'était bien ça.


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## xaipete

Tu peux travailler au côté de ta partenaire, pas sur ses genoux -- et je vois que tu ne travailles pas!  
A baby might sit _in_ my lap, or perhaps a kitten.  Anything bigger would be _on_ my lap, or in French sur les genoux.  To me it's a question of relative size.


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## A-class-act

Guil give a best translation .
Charlie Parker,Really I love your questions,I would love to have a lot of suggestions in my threads,like you have.


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## Charlie Parker

Merci à tous d'avoir contribué à mon fil. J'ai beaucoup appris.


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## Madame C

Charlie Parker,
I love your posts. I have taught High School French for 18 years and am moving to the Middle School level with a bit of anxiety! The antics that you describe are what I expect, and I appreciate your questions about how a French native speaker might address these issues of pencil throwing and lap sitting! 

I agree with xaipete on the grammar here. In American English, you would say sit *on* someone's lap. 
_"Come sit on my lap." _
But if the sitter is quite small, you _might_ say sit *in* someone's lap. 
_"The kitten was sitting in my lap." _
But sitting *on* someone's lap is much more common in American English. However, the idiomatic expressions still use *in*. 
_"In the lap of luxury."_

Looking forward to more Middle School queries!


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## Charlie Parker

Welcome to the forum Madame C. I think you're right about the distinction between in and on. I'm sure teaching Middle School will be challenging but rewarding. I'm looking forward to your questions.


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## doinel

*Hamlet* Lady, shall I lie in your lap?
*Ophelia:* No, my lord.
*Hamlet:* I mean, my head upon your lap?
*Ophelia:* Ay, my lord.
*Hamlet:* Do you think I meant country matters?
ACT 3 Scene 2


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