# たのに



## lammn

> *彼女にキスをしなければよかった。* sounds good.


Does the meaning change at all if we put のに right after the above sentence? 
彼女にキスをしなければよかった*のに*。

Thanks for any help! 

Moderator Note:
Thread branched from here:
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2128483


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## Flaminius

> 彼女にキスをしなければよかった*のに*。


This makes the subject anyone but the speaker.  "You shouldn't have...." or "They shouldn't have...."

This のに needs further explanation, though.  In the following sentence, the subject of いく is the speaker and cannot be anyone else:
連絡をくれれば、夜遅くでもいったのに。

Maybe shall we branch a new thread for this?


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## gotoba

Flaminius said:


> This makes the subject anyone but the speaker.  "You shouldn't have...." or "They shouldn't have...."
> 
> This のに needs further explanation, though.  In the following sentence, the subject of いく is the speaker and cannot be anyone else:
> 連絡をくれれば、夜遅くでもいったのに。
> 
> Maybe shall we branch a new thread for this?




What does that sentence mean?

if I had been contacted, I would have gone, even late ??

I agree with you, noni requires further explanation.


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## Flaminius

If you had given me a call, I would have come (or gone) even late at night.


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## lammn

Flaminius said:


> 彼女にキスをしなければよかった*のに*。
> 
> 
> 
> This makes the subject anyone but the speaker. "You shouldn't have...." or "They shouldn't have...."
> 
> This のに needs further explanation, though. In the following sentence, the subject of いく is the speaker and cannot be anyone else:
> 連絡をくれれば、夜遅くでもいったのに。
Click to expand...

 
Well, I didn't know that the subject will change after adding のに*.*

The change in subject is perhaps due to the fact that のに has the nuance of _blaming_ someone.
So, in the 1st example, the speaker is blaming someone else to have kissed that girl.
In the 2nd example, the speaker is blaming the listener for not having called him/her.

If this observation holds true, can I conclude that のに is seldom used to blame oneself?


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## Wishfull

lammn said:


> If this observation holds true, can I conclude that のに is seldom used to blame oneself?



Maybe.
Human-beings tend to blame others, not themselves.

Yet, I think I can use it to blame myself, as in;

ついつい腹を立てて、彼女にあんなきつこと言っちまったよ（言ってしまったよ）。　そっとしておけばよかったのに。

メタボを気にしてたのに、３軒はしごして、最後にラーメンまでいっちゃったよ。やめときゃよかったのに。

FYI
メタボ＝メタボリックシンドローム
はしご＝掛け持ちで、酒屋を２件目、３件目と渡りあるいて（通常は飲みすぎること）
最後のラーメン＝深夜まで酒を飲むと、アルコールの作用なのかは知らないが、おなかが空くため、ラーメンを食べること。これが、アルコールの毒性だけではない二日酔いの、胸焼けや胃もたれの原因になる。


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## lammn

Wishfull said:


> Yet, I think I can use it to blame myself, as in;
> 
> ついつい腹を立てて、彼女にあんなきつこと言っちまったよ（言ってしまったよ）。　そっとしておけばよかったのに。
> 
> メタボを気にしてたのに、３軒はしごして、最後にラーメンまでいっちゃったよ。やめときゃよかったのに。


 
I think I understand up to this point, but I am a bit confused.
If we taken out the previous context and just say:



> そっとしておけばよかったのに。
> 
> やめときゃよかったのに。


Will the subject (the person to be blamed) be changed to someone else? 
As in the case of 彼女にキスをしなければよかったのに?


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## akimura

lammn said:


> If we taken out the previous context and just say:
> 
> 
> 
> そっとしておけばよかったのに。
> やめときゃよかったのに。
> 
> 
> 
> Will the subject (the person to be blamed) be changed to someone else?
Click to expand...


Without absolute ly context, the subject should be someone other than the speaker or writer.  In spoken communication, the subject is most likely the speaker's "second person, you".  But it's equally possible that when the first person (the speaker) and the second person (the listener) are talking about the third person (someone else), the subject of the above sentences are the third person. The latter case does have context already, though.

In very unusual cases, however, the subject could be the speaker or writer himself or herself.  But the cases I can imagine are so tricky as this: the speaker has himself or herself on mind as the second person, you.  Let's call him/her the imaginary second person.  Then the speaker might say to the imaginary second person, you, "そっと しておけばよかったのに" or "やめておけばよかったのに".  Here, grammatically, the subject is still the imaginary second person, not the first person; but practically, it's the first person.

In essence, though, you may already realize that you're right, the subject is someone else in the above two sentences.

However, don't hesitate to use the -のに structure for the first person, at all.  In reality, you should always have some context, right?  As long as you have your perfect context, you can always apply the perfect use of the -のに structure for the first person.  Here are some examples:彼が心配で、我慢できずに声をかけちゃった。かえって状況は悪くなっちゃったみたい。そっとしておけばよかったのにね。
だらしない息子がいつまでも宿題をしようとしないから、我慢できずに手伝ったよ。本当はやめときゃよかったのに。​


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## lammn

Thanks to all of you! 
I think I understand the たのに structure and its subject now.

That said, finding out the omitted subjects in most Japanese sentences seems to be one of the major difficulties for gaijin like me.


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## gotoba

Could you provide the english translation for those 2 sentences please?

彼が心配で、我慢できずに声をかけちゃった。かえって状況は悪くなっちゃったみたい。そっとしておけばよかったのにね。
だらしない息子がいつまでも宿題をしようとしないから、我慢できずに手伝ったよ。本当はやめときゃよかったのに。


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## Wishfull

gotoba said:


> Could you provide the english translation for those 2 sentences please?
> 
> 彼が心配で、我慢できずに声をかけちゃった。かえって状況は悪くなっちゃったみたい。そっとしておけばよかったのにね。
> だらしない息子がいつまでも宿題をしようとしないから、我慢できずに手伝ったよ。本当はやめときゃよかったのに。



I was very concerned with him. Very concerned indeed, so I couldn't help saying something to him. Now the matter has got worse. I should have let him alone.

My slipshod son didn't start his homework, and I couldn't but help his homework.
Though the correct decision should have been "letting him alone."


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## gotoba

Thank you.


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## Dheara

I never thought that ~noni could imply the meaning of blaming... 
Is it the same noni as in： 

”時間があれば全部できたのに”
”お金があればあの車を買ったのに”
If I had time, I could have done it all？/ Wish I had time to do it all!
If I had money, I could have bought that car / Wish I had money to buy that car!

expressing some kind of mix feelings of "wish" and "regret"
?

I guess it's not the same... 

Thank you!


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## akimura

Dheara said:


> I never thought that ~noni could imply the meaning of blaming...
> Is it the same noni as in：
> 
> ”時間があれば全部できたのに”
> ”お金があればあの車を買ったのに”
> If I had time, I could have done it all？/ Wish I had time to do it all!
> If I had money, I could have bought that car / Wish I had money to buy that car!
> 
> expressing some kind of mix feelings of "wish" and "regret"?
> 
> I guess it's not the same...



I think the role of -のに can be much clearer if we compare it with -けど.  While -けど is used as an objective judgment, -のに is used as a subjective judgment.  With -のに, the speaker sees an unsatisfactory, unacceptable, or unexpected result.  

時間があれば全部できたけど。（時間がなかったので全部できなかった。）
# This is a fact statement, or an objective judgment.

時間があれば全部できたのに。（時間がなかったので全部できなかった。）
# This is an unsatisfactory result to the speaker.

This example is directed to the speaker himself/herself, but if you use a statement with -のに directed to the listener, it could mean the speaker's blaming of the listener.


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## Dheara

Thank you for your explanations, Akimura-san!


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