# botch



## ThatsnotwhatImeanttosay

Hello,

The dictionary led me astray this morning - I looked up "botch", used the given translation "salope" (well, it *does* resemble "sloppy") in a conversation with a francophone co-worker, and have spent the rest of the morning with a red face after learning that it actually means "slut" - how does one go about requesting a change to the dictionary?


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## Franglais1969

It can mean bitch or slag.  It depends on the context.


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## Bunnicula

I think your dictionary has a typo. "Salope" is often translated as "bitch"


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## kareno999

ThatsnotwhatImeanttosay said:


> Hello,
> 
> The dictionary led me astray this morning - I looked up "botch", used the given translation "salope" (well, it *does* resemble "sloppy") in a conversation with a francophone co-worker, and have spent the rest of the morning with a red face after learning that it actually means "slut" - how does one go about requesting a change to the dictionary?



haha, you're funny, man. So is this where your id "ThatsnotwhatImeanttosay" comes from?


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## Franglais1969

By the way, welcome to the forum, ThatsnotwhatImeanttosay.


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## hunternet

Bunnicula said:


> I think your dictionary has a typo. "Salope" is often translated as "bitch"


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## totallylost202

Bunnicula said:


> I think your dictionary has a typo. "Salope" is often translated as "bitch"


 
... The OP actually means the WR dictionary! Check it out!


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## Aristide

What is the OP ?
Here is the verb saloper (=to botch) in the WR dictionary.
but maybe the word should be avoided.
it doesn't sound polite.


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## lyD

While we're learning, would "salope" be used only for females?


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## totallylost202

Aristide said:


> What is the OP ?
> Here is the verb saloper (=to botch) in the WR dictionary.
> but maybe the word should be avoided.
> it doesn't sound polite.


 
OP = Original Poster (ThatsnotwhatImeanttosay).

Can you use saloper for 'to botch'?

Do teach us, please!


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## Aristide

would "salope" be used only for females?

--> Yes, and salaud(s) for males (but without the sexual connotation)

_Can you use saloper for 'to botch'?_

You can. If you look up "salopé le travail" in google, you get a few hits.
But I don't use the word myself.


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## ThatsnotwhatImeanttosay

Yes, that's where the ID comes from - probably won't be the last time, after all!

Thanks for the help, everyone!


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## lyD

Thanks for that


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## totallylost202

Thankyou for helping!


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## Arrius

*Salope *has the connotation of of _carelessness_ like _sloppy_ as in _sloppy work_, both words coming from a Germanic root referring to dung. _Slut _and _slattern_ have similar connotations though related exclusively to females often prostitutes, unlike _sloppy_. _Une saloperie_ is a piece of trash or junk (_camelote_), hence a _botched _job.


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## hscharlie

I do not know about " to botch", but in France, I would never use the verb "saloper un travail" except if I meant to be particularly insulting. It seems to me to be a rather argotic word that people do not use any longer really, apart from professions where they use real rough language (I only heard it in the building industry over the past years).
But then there is no real translation alternative in French. "Bâcler" gives more an idea of work done in haste (but providing sloppy results as well), "rater" is not bad but a bit soft. However this is what I would personally choose.


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## Benouze

Il a travaillé comme un sagouin / C'est un travail de sagouin ?


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## Arrius

For those who like myself didn't know what _un sagouin_ was, I found the following:
*sagouin canaille ; insulte ; terme injurieux général ; insulte (personne grossière).*


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## grosmax

16 answers, 77 pageviews for this thread showing only the word "salope" in its title.
You see *how* (c)rude the word is in French


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## Benouze

Arrius said:


> For those who like myself didn't know what _un sagouin_ was, I found the following:
> *sagouin canaille ; insulte ; terme injurieux général ; insulte (personne grossière).*


 
A l'origine un sagouin c'est ça : http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Red-bellied_tamarin.jpg

Le terme, bien qu'injurieux, n'a rien de vulgaire et passe relativement bien dans un contexte pas trop formel.


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## froggee501

hscharlie said:


> I do not know about " to botch", but in France, I would never use the verb "saloper un travail" except if I meant to be particularly insulting. It seems to me to be a rather argotic word that people do not use any longer really, apart from professions where they use real rough language (I only heard it in the building industry over the past years).
> But then there is no real translation alternative in French. "Bâcler" gives more an idea of work done in haste (but providing sloppy results as well), "rater" is not bad but a bit soft. However this is what I would personally choose.



So, would you say that "saloper un travail" could be translated as "to fuck up the job"?


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## nobbs

froggee501 said:


> So, would you say that "saloper un travail" could be translated as "to fuck up the job"?


Well, more or less.
Mais "saloper" ne veut pas exactement dire "foutre en l'air"/ne pas faire le travail. C'est plutôt le faire très très mal.


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## Arrius

Thank you *Benouze* for the link.  The associated English article for which the link follows makes it clearer that this creature is a squirrel-sized monkey with a red belly. But I wonder how it came to have such a bad reputation in French (perhaps it makes a particularly vulgar noise): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamarin


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## Cath.S.

I would suggest_ *saboter* un travail_, I agree that_ saloper _gets the meaning across rather too efficiently and is rude and insulting.


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## grosmax

wouldn't _ *saboter* un travail_ convey the meaning of *willingly* doing a messy job?


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## Cath.S.

grosmax said:


> wouldn't _*saboter* un travail_ convey the meaning of *willingly* doing a messy job?


Je ne pense pas que cela implique obligatoirement un désir de mal faire, davantage de la négligence ; le TLF donne :
Faire vite et mal un travail, une tâche. Synon. _bâcler_ (fam.), _*gâter*, gâcher._


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## Teafrog

Mon grain de sel:



Franglais1969 said:


> It can mean bitch or slag.  It depends on the context.


Absolutely, these are the best term (there are a multitude , as in French) for "une salope"



hscharlie said:


> I do not know about " to botch"[…] "Bâcler" gives more an idea of work done in haste (but providing sloppy results as well), […]


That's exactly what "to botch" something means  >  "bâcler" qcq chose



froggee501 said:


> So, would you say that "saloper un travail" could be translated as "to fuck up the job"?


I think so, although I'd say "to fuck the job up"



nobbs said:


> Well, more or less.
> Mais "saloper" ne veut pas exactement dire "foutre en l'air"/ne pas faire le travail. C'est plutôt le faire très très mal.


C'est ce que froggee501 veut dire. To fuck up n'a rien à voir avec "en l'air" (idem avec "to drink up"). Zieutez ici 

To answer the original Q: this was answered in part by post #2 (even though it was in the WR dict here), and if anyone wants to make a suggestion whilst in the dict (e.g. adding, deleting or tweaking a word or meaning), then hit the, erm, "suggestion" button on the left hand side, under the "links" link.
Voilà…


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## Staarkali

egueule said:


> Je ne pense pas que cela implique obligatoirement un désir de mal faire, davantage de la négligence ; le TLF donne :
> Faire vite et mal un travail, une tâche. Synon. _bâcler_ (fam.), _*gâter*, gâcher._


The various dictionaries tend to credit this definition but I would agree with grosmax, I also use _saboter_ as screw up on purpose, and by extension possibly only screw up;
As in, for instance, pourquoi le plan ne s'est pas déroulé comme prevu? parce qu'il y a eu *sabotage *(et Dieu sait si j'aime qu'un plan se déroule sans accroc  ).
Here we can't replace the idea of _ça a été saboté_ par _ça a été bâclé  _

I didn't know _to botch_ but WR gets it right, "not vulgar synonyms" to _saloper_ are _bousiller_ and _bâcler (_the latter one being the more formal_)_


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## Cath.S.

Staarkali said:
			
		

> I didn't know _to botch_


I did, which is why I suggested_ saboter_, and still do.
_Saboter_ does not always mean _to sabotage_, even though it does in some contexts.

I agree with_ bousiller_ as an alternative.


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## Bunnicula

_Sabotage_ from_ sabots _or wooden shoes_. _Texile workers in the early years of the industrial revolution were said to throw their shoes into the machines to break them, hoping to save jobs for textile workers. Hence _sabotage._ Luddites unite!


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## Cath.S.

Bunnicula said:


> Luddites unite!


A computer seems like a strange medium to convey that message!


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## Staarkali

egueule said:


> _Saboter_ does not always mean _to sabotage_, even though it does in some contexts.


well I just mean if people use it for _screwing up_ something, I would understand, but I will never use it in that way by myself.


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## Bunnicula

That's why it hasn't worked yet! Dang!


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## nobbs

Teafrog said:


> Mon grain de sel:
> C'est ce que froggee501 veut dire. To fuck up n'a rien à voir avec "en l'air" (idem avec "to drink up"). Zieutez ici


"foutre en l'air" n'a rien à voir avec "en l'air" non plus, en fait. Je le maintiens donc comme possible traduction pour "to fuck up". Ou "saboter", effectivement.


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## Arrius

The preposition _up_ in the offensive phrase with F*** can be placed in either of the positions suggested.
_saboter_ is not_ bâcler_: if the French Résistance had done the second they would not have succeeded in the first.  Of course, you can always accuse someone of _saboter un travail _even if you don't really think the blunder was deliberate.
Slightly milder synonyms in English are _to balls up_ and _to bugger up_, and American _to screw up_, which, however, appears usually to be intransitive.
Interesting to hear that _bousiller_, which I hitherto thought of only as gangster talk for _to kill_ can be used in this sense too.


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## nobbs

Well, I never heard of "_bousiller_" being used as "_to kill_", whereas it is very common in the sense of  "_détruire_"/"_foutre en l'air_".

Par contre, on a "_descendre_", "_refroidir_", "_dézinguer_", "_abattre_", "_buter_"... (désolé pour le hors-sujet, j'arrête).


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## Arrius

T'as raison: je pensais à_ zigouiller_.


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## Staarkali

Arrius said:


> _saboter_ is not_ bâcler_: if the French Résistance had done the second they would not have succeeded in the first.


I'm as surprised as you but it seems we have dictionaries are unanimous and don't go in our way. Some people (cf Egueule's post) still uses it in that way but I think we have also (a lot of?) people who make a clear difference between the two, whether it was intended or not.


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## Teafrog

Saboter can also mean bâcler: "Faire vite et mal un travail, une tâche", as well as "Détériorer, détruire de manière clandestine". See here. 
Arrius, to screw up is very BE (not only American)


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## Arrius

*Arrius, to **screw up** is very BE (not only American)* *Teafrog*
But it is nevertheless an Americanism that has entered BE, though not my particular idiolect. I was trying to make the point that it is usually used intransitively: "_You screwed up!"_ (I can hear the American accent as I write those words).
As for _bâcler/saboter_, much sabotage was done in WW II by deliberately shoddy workmanship in munitions factories, whereby the two ideas coincided.
*Bunnicula*'s comment on the origin of_ saboter_, that explains it as throwing sabots (clogs) into the factory machinery, resolves a life-time's puzzle of mine as to why saboteurs should apparently sneak around in clogs when doing their dirty work, making far more noise than they would on leather or rubber soles. It is not for nothing that the Dutch call such footwear _klonken_!
In BE we metaphorically _throw a spanner in the works,_ though I am not sure what methods the aforementioned Luddites used.


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