# enjoy life while you have it, for tomorrow is uncertain



## jbooth1968

Hi I am looking for help translating a phrase that was found on a silver cup in Pompeii.  I believe inscription was in Greek and I can see image of this cup, but not inscription.

The inscription is “enjoy life while you have it, for tomorrow is uncertain”looking to translate into classical latin
Any help is appreciated!


----------



## Sobakus

This pop-Epicurean sentiment is well-known to anyone familiar with Pompeii and its ancient inhabitants, but while reading your request I realised that I had no corresponding Latin expession at hand; I wasn't even sure I'd ever read any dipinti/graffiti/inscriptions that would capture it in a memorable form, especially as an epigram (I sure had!). So I was quite motivated to find the Greek original if only to see whether any Latin dictum had been equated with it. After a rather protracted battle with Google and with my own distractibility, I've managed to find it in what seems to be the first modern epigraphic description of the hoard, de Villefosse A. H. (1895), _Le trésor d'argenterie de Bosco Reale_, page 271:

ΖΩΝ ΜΕΤΑΛΑΒΕ ΤΟ ΓΑΡ ΑΥΡΙΟΝ ΑΔΗΛΟΝ ΕCΤΙ​ζῶν μετάλαβε· τὸ γὰρ αὔριον ἄδηλόν ἐστι​
(There are a few more similar expressions found on this cup that you may wish to consider. Here's a short article about it with translations into modern Greek – use Google translate.)

Characteristically it's cited and recited in various translations (incl. the one you give, whose gist is correct), and it's even claimed that it was the official motto of the city of Pompeii. But almost nowhere is the Greek original given - not even in the item's description on Louvre's website! As someone who is equally passionate about matters of philology as I am about verifying the source and authenticity of any information, this makes me feel rather lonely in my convictions.

As far as I understand, the reason you were looking for a Latin translation is as a replacement for the Greek original, which unsurprisingly you weren't able to find. Now that you have the original, there should be no need for a third-hand translation. But there's still the question of how this and similar sentiments were expressed in Latin. Usually such correspondences can be found in dedicated commentaries; I've managed to find only one that references this saying, in a commentary on Horace (_what a surprise!_ -_-). The poem being commented on is poem 9 _(Vidēs ut alta...),_ but the sentiment is of course most famously expressed in poem 11:

_*Carpe diem, quam minimum crēdula posterō.*_​​One could try and come up with a literal translation of the Greek dictum from the cup, but the exercise seems like an ill-advised attempt to challenge the eternal monumentality of the Horatian expression. However, I've found a ready-made alternative in Petronius' Trimalchio's Banquet, which describes exactly the same region (the hoard was discovered just north of Pompeii, halfway to Vesuvius) with exactly the same mores and material culture, including decadent silver skeletons accompanied by pop-Epicurian dictums, specifically by this epigram (see the entire episode here):

Ēheu nōs miserōs, quam tōtus homunciŏ nīl est!​Sīc erimus cūnctī, postquam nōs auferet Orcus.​Ergō vīvāmus, dum licet esse bene.​
_(“Alas for poor us _[mortals],_ how insignificant is man_ [a contemptuous diminutive] _!_​_This is how we'll all end up after Orcus_ [the lord of the Underworld] _carries us away._​_While we can still have a good time, then, let us live!”)_​​Dunbabin, Katherine M. D. (1986), '_Sic erimus cuncti...' The Skeleton in Graeco-Roman Art_ (freely available at academia.edu) explores this topic in detail.


----------



## jbooth1968

Sobakus said:


> This pop-Epicurean sentiment is well-known to anyone familiar with Pompeii and its ancient inhabitants, but while reading your request I realised that I had no corresponding Latin expession at hand; I wasn't even sure I'd ever read any dipinti/graffiti/inscriptions that would capture it in a memorable form, especially as an epigram (I sure had!). So I was quite motivated to find the Greek original if only to see whether any Latin dictum had been equated with it. After a rather protracted battle with Google and with my own distractibility, I've managed to find it in what seems to be the first modern epigraphic description of the hoard, de Villefosse A. H. (1895), _Le trésor d'argenterie de Bosco Reale_, page 271:
> 
> ΖΩΝ ΜΕΤΑΛΑΒΕ ΤΟ ΓΑΡ ΑΥΡΙΟΝ ΑΔΗΛΟΝ ΕCΤΙ​ζῶν μετάλαβε· τὸ γὰρ αὔριον ἄδηλόν ἐστι​
> (There are a few more similar expressions found on this cup that you may wish to consider. Here's a short article about it with translations into modern Greek – use Google translate.)
> 
> Characteristically it's cited and recited in various translations (incl. the one you give, whose gist is correct), and it's even claimed that it was the official motto of the city of Pompeii. But almost nowhere is the Greek original given - not even in the item's description on Louvre's website! As someone who is equally passionate about matters of philology as I am about verifying the source and authenticity of any information, this makes me feel rather lonely in my convictions.
> 
> As far as I understand, the reason you were looking for a Latin translation is as a replacement for the Greek original, which unsurprisingly you weren't able to find. Now that you have the original, there should be no need for a third-hand translation. But there's still the question of how this and similar sentiments were expressed in Latin. Usually such correspondences can be found in dedicated commentaries; I've managed to find only one that references this saying, in a commentary on Horace (_what a surprise!_ -_-). The poem being commented on is poem 9 _(Vidēs ut alta...),_ but the sentiment is of course most famously expressed in poem 11:
> 
> _*Carpe diem, quam minimum crēdula posterō.*_​​One could try and come up with a literal translation of the Greek dictum from the cup, but the exercise seems like an ill-advised attempt to challenge the eternal monumentality of the Horatian expression. However, I've found a ready-made alternative in Petronius' Trimalchio's Banquet, which describes exactly the same region (the hoard was discovered just north of Pompeii, halfway to Vesuvius) with exactly the same mores and material culture, including decadent silver skeletons accompanied by pop-Epicurian dictums, specifically by this epigram (see the entire episode here):
> 
> Ēheu nōs miserōs, quam tōtus homunciŏ nīl est!​Sīc erimus cūnctī, postquam nōs auferet Orcus.​Ergō vīvāmus, dum licet esse bene.​
> _(“Alas for poor us _[mortals],_ how insignificant is man_ [a contemptuous diminutive] _!_​_This is how we'll all end up after Orcus_ [the lord of the Underworld] _carries us away._​_While we can still have a good time, then, let us live!”)_​​Dunbabin, Katherine M. D. (1986), '_Sic erimus cuncti...' The Skeleton in Graeco-Roman Art_ (freely available at academia.edu) explores this topic in detail.


Thank you so much!  This in depth response is amazing and more than I hoped for!
I followed some of your links and I find it fascinating that the inscription is quoted but nowhere on the cup is it clear the original inscription equating to what I started with.

At the end of the day, I am looking to translate the original phrase into Latin. 
Since I can’t seem to get original Greek phrase I would like to keep it simple and translate simply “enjoy life while you have it, for tomorrow is uncertain” into latin
The phrase you have above is great, and certainly captures the meaning, but it’s a bit long for tattoo so looking to just translate the above and keep it simple!  Again, thank you!


----------



## Sobakus

jbooth1968 said:


> I followed some of your links and I find it fascinating that the inscription is quoted but nowhere on the cup is it clear the original inscription equating to what I started with.


The numerous inscriptions on the cup are made by punching dots into the outer layer of silver. The letters are quite small but you can clearly see them in the photos.


jbooth1968 said:


> Since I can’t seem to get original Greek phrase


I supplied the original Greek phrase in that message, it's:

ΖΩΝ ΜΕΤΑΛΑΒΕ ΤΟ ΓΑΡ ΑΥΡΙΟΝ ΑΔΗΛΟΝ ΕCΤΙ​ζῶν μετάλαβε· τὸ γὰρ αὔριον ἄδηλόν ἐστι​


jbooth1968 said:


> At the end of the day, I am looking to translate the original phrase into Latin.


There's no need for this, because Latin already has an equivalent phrase that everybody knows: _*Carpe diem, quam minimum crēdula posterō,*_ meaning roughly “Seize the day and don't put trust in tomorrow”. It's as concise as the Greek expression too, and shorter than the English, so length shouldn't be a problem. You can also just take the last line from the epigram I cited.


----------



## S.V.

LIBENTI·IN·VITAM
　CRAS ENIM LIBABUNT


----------



## jbooth1968

Sobakus said:


> The numerous inscriptions on the cup are made by punching dots into the outer layer of silver. The letters are quite small but you can clearly see them in the photos.
> 
> I supplied the original Greek phrase in that message, it's:
> 
> ΖΩΝ ΜΕΤΑΛΑΒΕ ΤΟ ΓΑΡ ΑΥΡΙΟΝ ΑΔΗΛΟΝ ΕCΤΙ​ζῶν μετάλαβε· τὸ γὰρ αὔριον ἄδηλόν ἐστι​
> 
> There's no need for this, because Latin already has an equivalent phrase that everybody knows: _*Carpe diem, quam minimum crēdula posterō,*_ meaning roughly “Seize the day and don't put trust in tomorrow”. It's as concise as the Greek expression too, and shorter than the English, so length shouldn't be a problem. You can also just take the last line from the epigram I cited.


Thank you again!  I misunderstood that Greek phrase. Didn’t realize it’s original from cup. I thought it was a paraphrase like the Latin one. Appreciate all your help!


Sobakus said:


> The numerous inscriptions on the cup are made by punching dots into the outer layer of silver. The letters are quite small but you can clearly see them in the photos.
> 
> I supplied the original Greek phrase in that message, it's:
> 
> ΖΩΝ ΜΕΤΑΛΑΒΕ ΤΟ ΓΑΡ ΑΥΡΙΟΝ ΑΔΗΛΟΝ ΕCΤΙ​ζῶν μετάλαβε· τὸ γὰρ αὔριον ἄδηλόν ἐστι​
> 
> There's no need for this, because Latin already has an equivalent phrase that everybody knows: _*Carpe diem, quam minimum crēdula posterō,*_ meaning roughly “Seize the day and don't put trust in tomorrow”. It's as concise as the Greek expression too, and shorter than the English, so length shouldn't be a problem. You can also just take the last line from the epigram I cited.


i understand!  You are logical of course!

Reason I am looking for literal Greek to Latin on that particular phrase is because my daughter got a tattoo in Gaelic, my wife’s doing French and I am doing Latin.  So I wanted to get exact phrase even though I completely get what you’re saying


----------



## jbooth1968

S.V. said:


> LIBENTI·IN·VITAM
> CRAS ENIM LIBABUNT


This is the translation of which phrase?  I’m not able to decipher exactly


----------



## Sobakus

jbooth1968 said:


> Reason I am looking for literal Greek to Latin on that particular phrase is because my daughter got a tattoo in Gaelic, my wife’s doing French and I am doing Latin.  So I wanted to get exact phrase even though I completely get what you’re saying


I think I understand your reasoning, but Latin is a little bit different in this respect. It's a language which is used to adduce the authority of tradition through the use of monumental phrases consecrated by many centuries. Attempts at translating random English idioms into Latin have enriched the world with a healthy amount of fail in the last century or so, enough cringe material to last for centuries to come. This copious amount of fail is especially painful to think about when it's burned into someone's skin.

The blame goes in equal measure to those people who tattoo themselves in languages they have no relation to or understanding of whatsoever, in order to conceal the banality of the words if someone were to understand them, as well as to people who supply translations in languages they haven't learned properly (if at all) intended for burning into someone's skin.

Now if we consider that the original Greek expression has an established Latin equivalent in one of the most monumental and consecrated expressions ever produced in any language, as well as the fact that the English translation that you provided isn't even a faithful rendering of the Greek original (nor does it have to be – gloss-translations are responsible for a lot of those cringe tattoos), it becomes plainly inadvisable to attempt to translate the English approximation into any kind of Latin, even if the translator is otherwise fluent in Latin, as is yours truly. Again, this would be an attempt to dethrone the very awesome authority of original, authentic, not-cringe-translationese Latin, the very thing that makes people want to inscribe it in places it doesn't necessarily belong.

With all these considerations in mind my suggestion firmly remains to use Horace's timeless line about seizing the day as the direct equivalent of the Greek expression whose (hopfully idiomatic) translations your close ones chose to make part of their bodies. But the move par exellence would be to get the Greek original tattooed instead. You can't get more OG than that.


----------



## jbooth1968

Sobakus said:


> I think I understand your reasoning, but Latin is a little bit different in this respect. It's a language which is used to adduce the authority of tradition through the use of monumental phrases consecrated by many centuries. Attempts at translating random English idioms into Latin have enriched the world with a healthy amount of fail in the last century or so, enough cringe material to last for centuries to come. This copious amount of fail is especially painful to think about when it's burned into someone's skin.
> 
> The blame goes in equal measure to those people who tattoo themselves in languages they have no relation to or understanding of whatsoever, in order to conceal the banality of the words if someone were to understand them, as well as to people who supply translations in languages they haven't learned properly (if at all) intended for burning into someone's skin.
> 
> Now if we consider that the original Greek expression has an established Latin equivalent in one of the most monumental and consecrated expressions ever produced in any language, as well as the fact that the English translation that you provided isn't even a faithful rendering of the Greek original (nor does it have to be – gloss-translations are responsible for a lot of those cringe tattoos), it becomes plainly inadvisable to attempt to translate the English approximation into any kind of Latin, even if the translator is otherwise fluent in Latin, as is yours truly. Again, this would be an attempt to dethrone the very awesome authority of original, authentic, not-cringe-translationese Latin, the very thing that makes people want to inscribe it in places it doesn't necessarily belong.
> 
> With all these considerations in mind my suggestion firmly remains to use Horace's timeless line about seizing the day as the direct equivalent of the Greek expression whose (hopfully idiomatic) translations your close ones chose to make part of their bodies. But the move par exellence would be to get the Greek original tattooed instead. You can't get more OG than that.


One final question for you, sobakus
If I understood correctly the second line of that Greek epitaph was the original Greek.  The first line in all caps looks eerily similar to second line.  Is one of them Ancient Greek and other the modern equivalent?  I’m confused by fact the first line in all caps and second is not, but they appear to be same words …. I may do both the Horace and the original Greek. Thank you


----------



## Sobakus

jbooth1968 said:


> One final question for you, sobakus
> If I understood correctly the second line of that Greek epitaph was the original Greek.  The first line in all caps looks eerily similar to second line.  Is one of them Ancient Greek and other the modern equivalent?  I’m confused by fact the first line in all caps and second is not, but they appear to be same words …. I may do both the Horace and the original Greek. Thank you


Oh, these are the same thing, one in caps and the other in lowercase, since they are two separate scripts to an even greater extent in Greek than in Latin. Specifically capital letters have no diacritical marks (which mark accent etc.), and that's what the original inscription uses. I gave the second line in lowercase specifically in order to spell out those diacritical marks. I'm not really sure which case Ancient Greek is usually tattooed in.

I like the idea of doing both the Horace and the Greek – it's plain that the expression and the ethics are Hellenic in origin, specifically Epicurean, and although they were very wide-spread in late Republican/early Imperial Rome, it's mainly through Horace that these have been popularised in the West ever since the Renaissance.


----------



## jbooth1968

Sobakus said:


> Oh, these are the same thing, one in caps and the other in lowercase, since they are two separate scripts to an even greater extent in Greek than in Latin. Specifically capital letters have no diacritical marks (which mark accent etc.), and that's what the original inscription uses. I gave the second line in lowercase specifically in order to spell out those diacritical marks. I'm not really sure which case Ancient Greek is usually tattooed in.
> 
> I like the idea of doing both the Horace and the Greek – it's plain that the expression and the ethics are Hellenic in origin, specifically Epicurean, and although they were very wide-spread in late Republican/early Imperial Rome, it's mainly through Horace that these have been popularised in the West ever since the Renaissance.


Thank you again!  So the truly original would be to do the caps. I like that idea

With Horace, would it be more proper to do caps?  How was the original Horace done?  I am considering doing it from “dum loquimur”…
Online I don’t see it with any accents…


----------



## Sobakus

jbooth1968 said:


> Thank you again!  So the truly original would be to do the caps. I like that idea
> 
> With Horace, would it be more proper to do caps?  How was the original Horace done?  I am considering doing it from “dum loquimur”…
> Online I don’t see it with any accents…


Well, the Latin capitals as they appear in Roman fonts have come down to us unchanged, but the lowercase as well as the handwriting derives from the medieval, Carolingian-era chancery hand. This doesn't stop most people from using lowercase for ancient Latin most of the time though. The original Roman cursives are illegible without a lot of getting used to, almost as bad as Russian (the older ligatures are wild).

As for the accents, they were used in a different shape (Ó ó) from what I used in both stone capitals and handwriting to mark vowel length, but inconsistently and according to necessity – more on Wikipedia. I would be surprised to see one tattooed, but just in case the other two words (besides _crédvla & posteró)_ they would appear in are _fv́gerit_ and _aetás._ Don't forget the Romans had no distinction between <v> and <u>: stone caps only used <V>, and in other scripts whether it looked more like <v> or <u> depended on the script or even chance. And medieval handwriting only knew <u>.


----------

