# Promessi Sposi



## moodywop

I've been able to obtain copies of two competing translations of _I Promessi Sposi. _Since we're all interested in translation I thought you might be interested to see how two of Britain's top translators handled a passage most Italians know by heart(sadly, I am limited to less than one paragraph by copyright law).

1. That branch of the lake of Como which extends southwards between two unbroken chains of mountains, and is all gulfs and bays as the mountains advance and recede, narrows down at one point, between a promontory on one side and a wide shore on the other, into the form of a river...
(1956, Archibald Colquhoun)

2. One arm of Lake Como turns off to the south between two unbroken chains of mountains, which cut it up into a series of bays and inlets as the hills advance into the water and retreat again, until it quite suddenly grows much narrower and takes on the appearance and the motion of a river between a headland on one side and a wide stretch of shore on the other...
(1972, Bruce Penman)

Now to me _this _is translating.


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## carrickp

Puoi dimonstrarci l'italiano?


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## moodywop

Quel ramo del lago di Como, che volge a mezzogiorno, tra due catene non interrotte di monti, tutto a seni e golfi, a seconda dello sporgere e del rientrare di quelli, vien, quasi a un tratto, a ristringersi, e a prender corso e figura di fiume, tra un promontorio a destra, e un'ampia costiera dall'altra parte


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## disegno

moodywop said:
			
		

> Quel ramo del lago di Como, che volge a mezzogiorno, tra due catene non interrotte di monti, tutto a seni e golfi, a seconda dello sporgere e del rientrare di quelli, vien, quasi a un tratto, a ristringersi, e a prender corso e figura di fiume, tra un promontorio a destra, e un'ampia costiera dall'altra parte



è questo è la ragione perché qualche cosa non doverbbe essere tradotta...è più bello in Italiano!


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## TrentinaNE

> che volge a mezzogiorno


 Allora, chiaramente questa frase significa "which turns off (or extends) southward" ma è un uso comune in italiano? Mi sembra un po' strano perchè a mezzogiorno tutte e due delle mani dell'orologio si orientano verso l'alto -- che mi pare significare al nord invece di al sud!

Elisabetta


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## Silvia

Without comparing the translations to the Italian text, I have a preference for the one by Archibald Colquhoun. What do the native English speakers think?


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## disegno

Silvia said:
			
		

> Without comparing the translations to the Italian text, I have a preference for the one by Archibald Colquhoun. What do the native English speakers think?



Colquhoun's translation is definitely more poetic and gets the idea across in fewer words, the other seems to be overly wordy, scientific text from a Geography manual.


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## carrickp

> Quel ramo del lago di Como, che volge a mezzogiorno, tra due catene non interrotte di monti, tutto a seni e golfi, a seconda dello sporgere e del rientrare di quelli, vien, quasi a un tratto, a ristringersi, e a prender corso e figura di fiume, tra un promontorio a destra, e un'ampia costiera dall'altra parte



*Here's my feeble stab at it:*

That branch of Lake Como, which runs south through two unbroken chains of mountains -- and is all points and inlets tracing their advance and retreat -- suddenly narrows to take on the appearance of a river, flowing past a promontory on the right and a spreading coastline on the other side.


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## RCC

TrentinaNE said:
			
		

> Allora, chiaramente questa frase significa "which turns off (or extends) southward" ma è un uso comune in italiano? Mi sembra un po' strano perchè a mezzogiorno tutte e due delle mani dell'orologio si orientano verso l'alto -- che mi pare significare al nord invece di al sud!
> 
> Elisabetta


 
Mezzogiorno è sinonimo di sud, tant'è che il sud Italia è chiamato appunto Mezzogiorno.


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## disegno

RCC said:
			
		

> Mezzogiorno è sinonimo di sud, tant'è che il sud Italia è chiamato appunto Mezzogiorno.



Grazie RCC, non lo sapevo prima.


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## winnie

TrentinaNE said:
			
		

> Allora, chiaramente questa frase significa "which turns off (or extends) southward" ma è un di uso comune in italiano? Mi sembra un po' strano perchè a mezzogiorno tutte e due delle mani le lancette dell'orologio si orientano verso l'alto -- cosa che mi pare significare nord piuttosto che sud (che mi pare significare al nord invece di al sud!)
> 
> Elisabetta


 
RCC already gave you the answer. i made some minor correction to improve your excellent Italian.

btw if you want a more 'complex' explanation you have to refer to the sun apparent travel and position in the sky. as you know the sun rises at east and it sets at west. in its apparent path it reaches the maximum elevation (zenith) at noon. at that time in a Chartesian coordinates system it points south.
now noon=mezzogiorno=> sud


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## moodywop

winnie said:
			
		

> .
> 
> btw if you want a more 'complex' explanation you have to refer to the sun apparent travel and position in the sky. as you know the sun rises at east and it sets at west. in its apparent path it reaches the maximum elevation (zenith) at noon. at that time in a Chartesian coordinates system it points south.
> now noon=mezzogiorno=> sud


 
Winnie

Thank you for your explanation. I myself didn't have any idea why "mezzogiorno" is used to refer to the South.

Don't you think our cats should meet? Mine's a boy, btw 

Carlo


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## winnie

moodywop said:
			
		

> Winnie
> 
> Thank you for your explanation. I myself didn't have any idea why "mezzogiorno" is used to refer to the South.
> 
> Don't you think our cats should meet? Mine's a boy, btw
> 
> Carlo


 
my pleasure.

my cat is a female one but unfortunately she suffered a hysterectomy so she isn't much involved in dating


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## TrentinaNE

> RCC already gave you the answer. i made some minor correction to improve your excellent Italian.
> 
> btw if you want a more 'complex' explanation you have to refer to the sun*'s *apparent travel and position in the sky. as you know the sun rises at east (*in the east*) and it sets at west (*in the west*). in its apparent path it reaches the maximum elevation (zenith) at noon. at that time in a Chartesian (*Cartesian*) coordinates system it points south.


Grazie, Winnie. Molto interessante! È ti scambio il favore con alcune piccole correzioni in inglese.  Non so come si mette una linea tramite una parola (how to cross out a word)...  Mi puoi aiutare?

Elisabetta


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## winnie

TrentinaNE said:
			
		

> Grazie, Winnie. Molto interessante! È ti scambio il favore con alcune piccole correzioni in inglese. Non so come si mette una linea tramite una parola (how to cross out a word)... Mi puoi aiutare?
> 
> Elisabetta


 
to put a stright through line you ave to put something like this
 open an [, s,  ] type your text then [, /s, ] without commas
"text"

many thanks for your corrections


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## moodywop

Please tell me if you want me to stop but there's one moving passage I'd like to share with you, when Renzo sees this woman holding the tiny body of her daughter, killed by the plague:


"Scendeva dalla soglia d'uno di quegli usci, e veniva verso il convoglio, unadonna, il cui aspetto annunziava una giovinezza avanzata, ma non trascorsa; e vi traspariva una bellezza velata e offuscata, ma non guasta, da una gran passione, e da un languor mortale: quella bellezza molle a un tempo e maestosa, che brilla nel sangue lombardo. La sua andatura era affaticata, ma non cascante; gli occhi non davan lacrime, ma portavan segno d'averne sparse tante; c'era in quel dolore un non so che di pacato e di profondo, che attestava un'anima tutta consapevole e presente a sentirlo.... Portava essa in collo una bambina di forse nov'anni, morta; ma tutta ben accomodata, co' capelli divisi sulla fronte, con un vestito bianchissimo, come se quelle mani l'avessero adornata per una festa promessa da tanto tempo, e data per premio. Né la teneva a giacere, ma sorretta, a sedere su un braccio, col petto appoggiato al petto, come se fosse stata viva; se non che una manina bianca a guisa di cera spenzolava da una parte, con una certa inanimata gravezza, e il capo posava sull'omero della madre, con un abbandono più forte del sonno.."

"Coming down the steps of one of the doorways and advancing towards the convoy was a woman whose countenance proclaimed her to be in her ripe but still flourishing youth. It showed a beauty which was dimmed and blunted but not destroyed by deep passion and mortal languor, that beauty at once soft and majestic which shines in the Lombard race. Her step was weary but still upright, her eyes showed no tears, though they bore signs of having shed many. There was something calm and deep about her sorrow which showed a mind all conscious and present to feel it...In her arms she carried a small child of perhaps nine years of age, dead. It was all neatly arranged, with its hair parted on its forehead, and dressed in the purest white, as if those hands of hers had decked it for some festival, long-promised and given as a reward. Nor did she hold it lying down, but sitting on one arm, with its breast leaning against her breast, as if it was still alive, except that a delicate little hand like wax dangled limply down one side with an inert weight, and that its head rested on its mother's shoulder with an abandon deeper than sleep.... "

I think Mr Colquhoun has outdone himself here. I like the way he takes advantage of gender-neutral _child _and refers to the little girl as _it_ so that we only find out it's a girl in the next paragraph when the mother says: "Promise not to take a thread off her, or to let anyone else dare to...".


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## carrickp

Is the opera based on this book?


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## moodywop

carrickp said:
			
		

> Is the opera based on this book?


 
If you're referring to Prokofiev's opera "Betrothed" no I don't think it is. I'm not aware of any opera based on Manzoni's "Promessi Sposi"(translated as "The Betrothed") .

Incidentally the complete novel is available online at

www.classicitaliani.it.

I hope you enjoyed reading the translation.

Carlo


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## disegno

moodywop said:
			
		

> I think Mr Colquhoun has outdone himself here. I like the way he takes advantage of gender-neutral _child _and refers to the little girl as _it_ so that we only find out it's a girl in the next paragraph when the mother says: "Promise not to take a thread off her, or to let anyone else dare to...".



You are in a mood today! Il brano è bellissimo ma mi rende un po' triste. Allora vado a asciugare le lacrime.


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## moodywop

disegno said:
			
		

> You are in a mood today! Il brano è bellissimo ma mi rende un po' triste. Allora vado a asciugare le lacrime.


 
I may be biased but to me it's the most beautiful, most moving passage in the whole book. And it shows Mr Colquhoun at his best. I derive exactly the same emotional impact from the original as from the English version. And that's no mean feat for a translator. Now can you spare a kleenex?


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## TrentinaNE

FYI -- Kleenex is a brand name.  The generic word is tissue.


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## carrickp

moodywop said:
			
		

> If you're referring to Prokofiev's opera "Betrothed" no I don't think it is. I'm not aware of any opera based on Manzoni's "Promessi Sposi"(translated as "The Betrothed") .
> 
> Incidentally the complete novel is available online at
> 
> www.classicitaliani.it.
> 
> I hope you enjoyed reading the translation.
> 
> Carlo



It's by Ponchielli, I believe.


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## TrentinaNE

From Wikipedia's entry about Amilcare Ponchielli:


> The turning point was the success of his revised version of _I promessi sposi_ in 1872,


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## moodywop

carrickp said:
			
		

> It's by Ponchielli, I believe.


 
Sorry, I had not heard of it before.

So what did you think of the second passage from "Promessi Sposi"? I loved your translation of the opening lines.

Carlo


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## mimitabby

I think it's wonderful that people are reading this book. I have only read it in english, it is quite long. I hope someday i have the time and courage to read it in Italian!


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## moodywop

Hi Mimitabby

Undoubtedly it's a difficult book to read in Italian. The syntax is quite elaborate and some of the language is no longer in use. May I ask which translation you read?

Incidentally, I notice this is the most feline-friendly thread around. Shame, I wanted to enquire about the little beauty in your avatar but chat is not allowed.

Carlo


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## mimitabby

Carlo
please forgive me,
i don't know which translation i read. it was a library book and i read it
10 years ago.
I am now reading _la mennulara_, a much shorter book.
My avatar is just a pretty cat one of hundreds that the feral cat animal shelter
i do volunteer work found a home for.


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## V52

Hi friends.
Your analysys about "I Promessi Sposi" is very interesting, even considering the story of the three drafts of the romance. Alessandro Manzoni never stopped to correct it, and the last version, the one which your are discussing about, is the last one.
The first was titled "Fermo e Lucia" , and the second  "Gli Sposi Promessi".  
Maybe the italian friends know it, but other friends not probably: Alessandro Manzoni, after the first draft, spent five years in Florence, to learn the language that was considered "pure" Italian : the Tuscan dialect. Manzoni said about this period of his life: "I went to wash my clothes in Arno". So, the final draft of "I Promessi Sposi" respects more a tuscan italian, than a northern italian language. This caused to Manzoni many critics, because the whole last draft was considered too much "clean" and many men of letters didn't like to find a so elegant language in poor lombard people dialogues. I think the critics can be right nowadays, but Manzoni made his choice following the general trend of Italian culture in 19th century first half, everything was directed to the cultural unification of the Country.
Ciao 
Vittorio52
By the way..  there were rumors about a different reason of Manzoni's  passion for Florentine laundries... (cherchez la femme!)


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## moodywop

Vittorio

Thank you for an extremely interesting contribution. We need more members like you! 

Carlo


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## jimreilly

at least two operas, evidently:

http://listserv.cuny.edu/Scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0001d&L=opera-l&T=0&P=41973


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## primo_cerchio

Until my generation it was mandatory to read and comment I Promessi Sposi for a whole year chapter by chapter in high school.
For that reason a lot of people my age loathes the thing but many charachters are used like (paradigmi ?) in speech.
A lawyer can be an azzeccagarbugli, a coward can be a don abbondio and so on.
An interesting figure of speech regards Renzo's chickens.

When Renzo goes to the lawyer he takes with him some chickens, alive, to pay the fee.

The chickens fight between themselves while hanging by their feet from Renzo's fist.
They became for cultured Italians a metaphore for people who fight between themselves instead of unite their struggle against their real enemies or oppressors.

They are like i polli di renzo.


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## lsp

primo_cerchio said:
			
		

> Until my generation it was mandatory to read and comment on I Promessi Sposi for a whole year chapter by chapter in high school.
> For that reason a lot of people my age loathes the thing but many charachters are used like (paradigmi ? stereotypes) in speech.
> A lawyer can be an azzeccagarbugli, a coward can be a don abbondio and so on.
> An interesting figure of speech regards Renzo's chickens.
> 
> When Renzo goes to the lawyer he takes with him some chickens, alive, to pay the fee.
> 
> The chickens fight between among (between is only for 2) themselves while hanging by their feet from Renzo's fist.
> They became for cultured Italians a metaphore for people who fight between among themselves instead of uniting their struggle against their real enemies or oppressors.
> 
> They are like i polli di renzo.


That was so interesting to learn. Thanks! Hope my edits will help.


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## primo_cerchio

Thank you very much for your editing, i appreciate.


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