# ～たvs～ていた



## John_Doe

> それを聞いた途端、彼女は表情を凍らせていた。





> 遅れてすみませーん……はぅっ！」  と、金髪の少女――アーシアが転んでいた。



I don't understand when ～ていた used like that. I see that ～ていた is used to say about the state of the object, but before the state is established, some action should happen, shouldn't it? Or the state should exist before the narrator says about that. So is this a momentary change or what? If we used 凍らせた and 転んだ instead, would it be still grammatical?


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## Isperia

Grammatically, this kind of "て" and "て" is called 接続助詞 (Conjunctive particle).
The whole usage of this particle is complex.
However, in this case

#1 凍らせていた
(a) 彼女の*表情が*凍った + (b) *彼女が*いた
#2 転んでいた
(a) *彼女が*転んだ + (b) *彼女*がいた

In both cases (b) is a main sentence. (a) acts like a dangling modifier.
(A paper says this usage is called "次元・範躊のことなる連接" and illustrates it as "全体的状態と部分的状態とを結びつける役割を果している".
However, it is too difficult for me to translate these explanations.)

Apart from complex Japanese grammar, they are grammatical.
#3a 彼女は表情を凍らせた。
#3b 彼女は表情を凍らせていた。
#4a アーシアが転んだ。
#4b アーシアが転んでいた。

However, #3b and #4b sound like "*I* *found* her shocked" and "*I* *found* her stumbling".
#3a and #4a sounds like "she was shocked" and "she stumbled" (to me).


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## John_Doe

That's new for me. I've never heard the progressive forms explained like this. 1) What about ～ている like in 死んでいる then?



> #3a and #4a sounds like "she was shocked" and "she stumbled" (to me).


Yes, that's right. I forgot to add to my post that the most plausible translation I devised for verbs conjugated like that was "was + adjective". So you confirmed my assumption. Anyway, 凍らせていた and 転んでいた seem too abrupt for me. It's like bang! -- and 彼女は表情を凍らせていた.

2) What if we modify the first sentence like this? それを聞いた途端、彼女は倒れている(気絶している・死んでいる・云々). Does the sentence still sound OK?

3) 





> But #3b and #4b sound like "*I* *found* her shocked" and "*I* *found* her stumbling".


He found/noticed some change anyway, didn't he? The distinction is still unclear for me.

4) Apart from grammatical correctness, what's more natural, more expected: 3,4b or 4a,b?


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## Isperia

John_Doe said:


> I've never heard the progressive forms explained like this. 1) What about ～ている like in 死んでいる then?


In most cases 死んでいる is 継続相(He has been dead).
In rare cases you can interpret the phrase as 進行相(e.g.今まさに死んでいるところ...Now I am dying). That's all.
Yes. surely we commonly think "ている" and "ていた" mean progressive forms. However, they also can mean 継続相 and 完成相.
In #3b you can translate it as "I found that she was being shocked".


John_Doe said:


> 2) What if we modify the first sentence like this? それを聞いた途端、彼女は倒れている(気絶している・死んでいる・云々). Does the sentence still sound OK?


Grammatically incorrect. "聞いた" is past and "倒れている" is present.
"聞いた途端、彼女は倒れていた" is OK.


John_Doe said:


> He found/noticed some change anyway, didn't he? The distinction is still unclear for me.


Yes, but in #3b *he found her *and she was shocked. In #3a he found her and *she was shocked*.
In other words, in #3b it seems that she was shocked and *he really saw it*. In #3a he may saw it. But it's maybe.
Difference between them is emphasis. So are #4a and #4b.


John_Doe said:


> Apart from grammatical correctness, what's more natural, more expected: 3,4b or 4a,b?


 It depends on the writer's style and intent.


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## John_Doe

I just can't relate what you said in #2 to what you said in #4. So 転んでいた and 転んでいる would be totally different things? The first で just combines two indepent verbs, 転んだ and いた, like the regular conjunctive te-form (XしてYしてZした・XでYでZだ), the second で and いる work together to create ている・でいる meaning process, continuing state and such?

Besides, you cited some paper. Could you tell me the title?


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## Isperia

Grammatically,
転んでいる = 転ん (verb "転ぶ" 連用形) + で (接続助詞) + いる (verb "いる" 終止形).
転んでいた= 転ん (verb "転ぶ" 連用形) + で (接続助詞) + い (verb "いる" 連用形) + た(auxiliary verb "た" 終止形).
And auxiliary verb た has mainly four meanings: 過去(past), 完了(perfect), 存続(progressive) and 確認.
In 転んでいた case "た" means 完了. In 表情が凍っていた case "た" means 存続.

And if comparing to simple past(転んだ or 凍った), they sounds like the speaker really sees it.


Papers
英語と日本語の「時制・相」について
http://repository.tufs.ac.jp/bitstream/10108/24091/1/acs073001.pdf
テンス・アスペクト
http://www2.ninjal.ac.jp/takoni/DGG/05_tensu_asupekuto.pdf
接続助詞「て(で)」の用法の文体論的考察
http://repository.lib.gifu-u.ac.jp/bitstream/123456789/45919/1/reg_040004007.pdf

The first paper says Japanese tense and aspect are utterly different from those of English.
I think so. In middle Japanese there's difference between past (き/けり) and perfect (つ/ぬ/たり/り). Now, き and けり are gone.


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## John_Doe

Thank you. I'll try to read the papers, as well.

But prior to that... Could you clarify these points?

1. I see some actions which the narrator couldn't see marked with -teita anyway and vice versa. For example:


> 振り返ると、金髪の少女──アーシアが何やら笑顔を引きつらせていた。



At least, he didn't see the beginning of that action. I understand it as the description of the continuing state. 

2. Mixed usage of ～ていた and ～た when someone is speaking "now", i.e. when it was "now" for the narrator.


> 「せ、先輩！」  俺は思わず声を*出していた*。





> 「ケーキを作ってみたから、みんなで食べましょう」  部長が照れくさそうに*言った*。





> 「部長！ あの子も一緒に！」  そんなことを俺は部長に*言っていた*。



3. Mixed usage of ～ていた and ～た when the narrator recalls someone's words.


> そうか。部長が「用事がある」と*言っていた*のはそれだったのか。





> 夕麻ちゃんは確たしかにあのときそう*言った*。



4. Something I can't even classify. For example, 俺の計画では入学早々一人めの彼女をゲット*していた*はずなんだ！


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## Isperia

> 振り返ると、金髪の少女──アーシアが何やら笑顔を引きつらせていた。


As the first paper says, we Japanese thinks that she smiled so now we can see her smiling.


> 「せ、先輩！」 俺は思わず声を出していた。
> 「ケーキを作ってみたから、みんなで食べましょう」 部長が照れくさそうに言った。
> 「部長！ あの子も一緒に！」 そんなことを俺は部長に言っていた


Surprisingly, た's 確認 usage doesn't mean past.
And ...出している, ...言う and ...言っている sounds odd. Maybe these た are 完了.
Moreover, some says this kind of た has another meaning. This argument is almost a nightmare. Even for Japanese.


> そうか。部長が「用事がある」と言っていたのはそれだったのか。
> 夕麻ちゃんは確たしかにあのときそう言った。


In both cases he recalls the past, doesn't he?


> 俺の計画では入学早々一人めの彼女をゲットしていたはずなんだ！


It's past. He failed to get an girlfriend.


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## John_Doe

> Surprisingly, た's 確認 usage doesn't mean past.


Ehm, I'm just asking if -teita and -ta mean different things in this case or not. And what do you mean by 確認?



> In both cases he recalls the past, doesn't he?


Yes. Are -teita and -ta interchangeable in this case?



> It's past. He failed to get an girlfriend.


Isn't 彼女をゲットしたはずなんだ good enough to convey this thought? )


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## Isperia

明日に予定されていた <-this た is 確認 usage.

ていた and た is surely and generally interchangeable and they both make sense but it doensn't sounds the same.



> そうか。部長が「用事がある」と言ったのはそれだったのか。
> 夕麻ちゃんは確かにあのときそう言っていた。
> 一人目の彼女をゲットしたはずなんだ


In these case you can say so but they sound a bit different as I said.
And to me "一人目の彼女をゲットしたはずなんだ" is a bit awkward. "一人目の彼女をゲットできたはずなんだ" is OK.

The reason is Japanese complex tenses and aspects.
The second paper says there's enormous tenses and aspects.
I counted. 12. 12 patterns for 1 verb besides no -teiru patterns.


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## John_Doe

> In this case you can't. "ゲットできたはずなんだ" is OK.


Can I take it that if something was supposed to happen but actually didn't happen, then I have to attach ～ている to a verb so that it is in a perfective/completive aspect or use a verb which inherently means completion like できる to describe it?


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## Isperia

Yes, you should attach "ていた".
It sounds natural. If you're speaking in the subjunctive mood, "できた" or "できていた" is also OK.


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## 810senior

I suppose that past continuous in Japanese is more complex than the similar usage(was/were -ing) in English... 

一人目の彼女をゲットしたはずなんだ is ok by me but I would write ゲットしてたはずなんだ than the one.
But I can't explain the reason why I would that way...


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## Isperia

>>810senior
反実仮想の場合、話者が過去のその時点にもし戻ることができれば
今(過去のその時点で)やるのになぁ、という「今やりたい」的なニュアンスが「ている」に出るのではと考えますが
反実仮想の主語が自分と自分以外の時を比べた個人的感覚以外には特に根拠はないです。


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## John_Doe

> I suppose that past continuous in Japanese is more complex than the similar usage(was/were -ing) in English...


Strictly speaking, ～ている can be used not only to indicate the progressive aspect, but to indicate the perfect aspect as well (state, experience, and other many things), so it's natural ～ている is more complex. 

As for 彼女をゲットしてたはずなんだ, now I can see it's no different from "I was supposed to have gotten/made a girlfriend" (a counterfactual statement).


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