# What does Zorobabel mean and what language is it from?



## mojobadshah

Zorobabel is a very peculiar name in Biblical history.  He lived around Cyrus-Darius's time. He was the architect of the Second Temple and I think he even took on the position of Messiah among the Jews after Cyrus.  It sounds like it could have a connection to Zoroaster, but the origin of his name is a mystery to me.  Does anyone know what language Zorobabel is from and what it means?


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## bazq

The Hebrew Wikipedia suggests it derives from "זרע בבל" which means "seed of Babylon" meaning "born in Babylon".
Maybe the Z and the R are related to the root "זור" in Hebrew which means "foreign"/"alienate"?


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## Triginta Septem

Zoroaster is often thought to mean "with old/angry/golden camels" in Old Iranian. But I'm not sure why the adjective varies so much, and I don't see how they even get "camel". It's my understanding that "zoro" means "with" and the rest is unknown (but apparently involves camels, according to Wikipedia).

Anyways, Zorobabel (who is more commonly called Zerubbabel, by the way) definitely means either "born in Babel" or "exiled to Babel". Which one would depend on the source language of the name (see Wikipedia's article, under the heading "The Name").


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## Treaty

Both Zorobabel and Zoroaster are Greek/Latin [mis]pronunciations of their original terms in Hebrew and Avestan, respectively. I don't think connecting two mispronunciations will lead to something special.

As far as I know, Zoroaster is the Greek version of _zarath-ushtra_ which means "[owner of] gold[en] camel" in Avestan. _Zarath_ is a cognate of Persian _zard _(yellow) and _zar_ (gold) andEnglish gold; _ushtra _is a cognate (or precedent) to Persian _oshtor _(camel)_.

_However, as mentioned, "zoro" of Zorobabel was originally _zeru_, _unrelated to Avestan _zarath_.   

I think a question here should be whether Greek and Latin languages tend to ease the pronunciation of consequent vowels by making them similar (as is done in Persian); and if there are also other examples.


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## Wolverine9

Treaty said:


> As far as I know, Zoroaster is the Greek version of _zarath-ushtra_ which means "[owner of] gold[en] camel" in Avestan. _Zarath_ is a cognate of Persian _zard _(yellow) and _zar_ (gold) andEnglish gold; _ushtra _is a cognate (or precedent) to Persian _oshtor _(camel)_.
> _



The meaning of Avestan _zara__θ__- _is unknown and inconclusive.  Leading theories are that it means "golden/yellow," "old/aging," "moving/driving/managing," "desiring/longing for," or "angry/furious."  All of these proposed meanings stem from an Old Iranian _*zarat-_ or _*zarant-_.  The _θ _in _zara__θ__- _indicates that it is an irregular formation.


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## killerbee256

Wolverine9 said:


> The meaning of Avestan _zara__θ__- _is unknown and inconclusive.  Leading theories are that it means "golden/yellow," "old/aging," "moving/driving/managing," "desiring/longing for," or "angry/furious."  All of these proposed meanings stem from an Old Iranian _*zarat-_ or _*zarant-_.  The _θ _in _zara__θ__- _indicates that it is an irregular formation.


Is there a cognate in Vedic Sanskrit?


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## Wolverine9

Yes, there are cognates in Vedic:  _jarat-_ "old/ancient,"  _har-_ "to like," _harit_- "yellow/gold/green." So, as you can see, the Vedic evidence doesn't really help in this instance in determining the underlying meaning of the Avestan word.


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## mojobadshah

killerbee256 said:


> Is there a cognate in Vedic Sanskrit?



The author of "Persian Mythology" connects Zarathushtra's name with Skr. _Sharadwati suta_. 

According to early works on Zoroastrianism Nask "chapter" is connected with the Semitic god Nebu "god of knowledge" and Zara- means "seed" in Semitic thus Zoromazdas means "seed of Mazda."


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## origumi

zeru- or zara- may have several Semitic meanings (e.g. seed, disperse, foreign, garland). Taking one of them arbitrarily seems unjustified.


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## mojobadshah

* Zero--in Chaldee, "the seed"--though we have seen reason to conclude that in Greek it sometimes appeared as Zeira, quite naturally passed also into Zoro, as may be seen from the change of Zerubbabel in the Greek Septuagint to Zoro-babel; and hence Zuro-ashta, "the seed of the woman" became Zoroaster, the well known name of the head of the fire-worshippers. Zoroaster's name is also found as Zeroastes (JOHANNES CLERICUS, De Chaldoeis). 

Is the above plausible?


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## Wolverine9

No. It has already been mentioned in this thread that the "Zoro" of Zorobabel and Zoroaster are unrelated.


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## sotos

It seems that the original meaning of Zoroaster in Persian languages is uncertain. The ancient Greek version of the name (Ζωρο-άστρης) might be an indication or the etymology, if we assume that the Greeks were closer to the person, both in time and geography. To my understanding, the greek version indicates a relation to Life (ζω-ή) and Star (αστήρ), otherwise it would be transliterated to _Ζορο-something_.  Probably there some degree of folk etymology there, but it is unlikely that the Greeks knew nothing about the meaning of the name.


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## mojobadshah

I don't agree.  The Old or Gathic Avestan meaning of Zarath-ushtra is "Old + Camel" and camels are golden which is a word that is a cognate of Zarath (cf. PIE *ger "Old, Gold(en)" Eng. gerontology and resembles the dawn, the light of the East, the awakening of Mithra the all flashing eye of Ahura Mazda.  Zarathushtra was named after the Bactrian camel indigenous to Bactria, ancient Balkh, Afghanistan.  All the camels in the world come from Bactria.


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## mojobadshah

Zerrubavel, <...> must derive from Zarbol, <...> in Persian right?


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## berndf

mojobadshah said:


> Zerrubavel, <...> must derive from Zarbol, <...> in Persian right?


There is no reason to think so. זרבבל was Jew raised in Babylon. Even though he served in the Persian empire there is no reason the assume the name is anything but Semitic. You could argue if it is Assyrian, Aramaic (which remained the official language in the formerly Babylonian provinces under Persian rule) or Hebrew but that doesn't matter much. The meaning would inevitably be that given to you at the start of this thread (#2): _seed of Babylon, raised in Babylon_.


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## fdb

Everything that there is to say on this matter has actually been said, but it is mixed up with so much silliness that it might be useful to recapitulate. 

The Biblical name Zerubbabel and the Iranian Zaraϑuštra have, of course, nothing to do with each other. The former, זרבבל , is probably “seed of Babylon”, but in this case it is definitely Akkadian (Babylonian); if it were Hebrew or Aramaic it would have to have ע after the second letter. The loss of the laryngeals is something that sets Akkadian apart from the other ancient Semitic languages. 

The etymology of Zaraϑuštra has been the subject of many articles and at least one entire book; honestly speaking it is one of those things that have been discussed to death, to the extent that no one real cares any more. In brief: it is generally accepted that the second element is uštra-, or possibly huštra-, “camel”. The first element is either the word for “yellow” or that for “old”, so the name means either “whose camels are yellow” or “whose camels are old”. The name is Iranian, but it is not linguistically Avestan, but some different, otherwise unattested, Old Iranian language. This means that although Zaraϑuštra composed his Gāϑas in the language that we call Avestan his own language was something different. In Greek, his name occurs in various forms, among them “Zoroaster”, which obviously implies an association with the Greek word for “star”, but this is a popular etymology.


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## berndf

fdb said:


> *but in this case it is definitely Akkadian (Babylonian); if it were Hebrew or Aramaic it would have to have ע after the second letter. The loss of the laryngeals is something that sets Akkadian apart from the other ancient Semitic languages.*


Your argument makes sense but I cannot fully agree with it. Tendencies to weaken laryngeals existed in different Hebrew dialects at all times. Elision of ע in a proper name cannot be summarily excluded.


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## origumi

berndf said:


> Tendencies to weaken laryngeals existed in  different Hebrew dialects at all times. Elision of ע in a proper name  cannot be summarily excluded.


Do you have examples of names that change this way? I can think of ישו <- ישוע (Jesus) which is under Aramaic influence, רות <- רעות (Ruth) which is doubtful.


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## berndf

origumi said:


> Do you have examples of names that change this way? I can think of ישו <- ישוע (Jesus) which is under Aramaic influence, רות <- רעות (Ruth) which is doubtful.


Yes, ישו was my first thought and Aramaic origin or at least influence is highly plausible in case of the name זרבבל. A sign of earlier weakening tendencies is the loss of germination of laryngeals. I didn’t say fdb’s claim of Akkadian origin isn’t plausible, I just said that Hebrew, Aramaic or Aramaic influenced Hebrew origin shouldn’t be categorically excluded.


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## fdb

ישו in the Babylonian Talmud is not Hebrew but Babylonian Aramaic, a language where all the laryngeals are lost due to the Akkadian substratum. (The orthography of the Talmud is largely historicising, but the Bab. Aram. forms are faithfully represented in Mandaic.) But we are talking about the Hebrew Bible. Where does this drop its ʻayins?


The loss of germination in the case of laryngeals (and r) is not attestable before the time when the vocalisation was introduced, i. e. not before the 10th century CE.


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## berndf

Ok, even if I consede all that, it still doesn't mean that זרבבל is necessarily of Akkadian origin. It only means, by your own argument, that the elision of ע is the consequence of Akkadian influence on Imperial Aramaic which still leaves the possiblity of Aramic or Hebrew origin under direct (in the former case) or indirect (in the latter case) Akkadian influence.

<...>


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## fdb

<...> Just one clarification: I was talking about Babylonian Aramaic (Mandaic, JBA); Imperial Aramaic is different.


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## berndf

fdb said:


> Just one clarification: I was talking about Babylonian Aramaic (Mandaic, JBA); Imperial Aramaic is different.


Oh I see, You meant "Babylonian" in the sense of "Bavli" as used in Talmudic times which effectively meant "Persian". My confusion.


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## origumi

berndf said:


> Yes, ישו was my first thought and Aramaic origin or at least influence is highly plausible in case of the name זרבבל.


But then the book of Ezra (2:2) says: אֲשֶׁר בָּאוּ עִם זְרֻבָּבֶל יֵשׁוּעַ נְחֶמְיָה שְׂרָיָה רְעֵלָיָה, (there are more similar lists there). So the name Zerubabel (no ayin) appears near the name Yeshua` (with ayin) and some other names with ayin. It seems that during the time of biblical Zerubabel (end of 6th century BC?) ayin was stable, excluding the name Zerubabel. This supports fdb's opinion regarding Zerubabl/Zorobabel, either if originally Hebrew and changed in a unique way by Aramaic in Akkadian accent, or originally Aramaic/Akkadian.


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## berndf

*Moderator note: We are running in circles. All what can be said about the two names has been said. Indulging in wild speculation about possible hidden relations between the respective etymons across language group boundaries are far beyond the scope of this forum.

This thread is closed.*


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