# taking, carrying coals to Newcastle



## Teafrog

We have a saying in the UK: Taking coal to Newcastle. Do you know it? It signifies an absurd situation or doing something totally unnecessary, to supply something to a place (or a person) that has already a lot of that particular item. Another version is to “carry coals to Newcastle”. Newcastle, in the North of England, used to be one of the major areas of coal productions. Examples provided to help you understand can be found here, here and here. 

My Q is twofold:
1- Is there an French equivalent to this saying, and if so, what is it?
1- What would be the equivalent in the US and Oz?

This Q stems from another thread that I’ve seen elsewhere on the forum, dealing the ‘Gallic shrug’ gesture. That thread is from a French native asking to have the non-French opinion of it. Reading it, I thought to myself that it was like “taking coal to Newcastle”.  One of the reason for their Q, I suspect, is that the French are too close(?) to their own gestures to appreciate (and know) it’s impact on the rest of the world…


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## edwingill

porter de l'eau à la rivière


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## sound shift

Isn't the English expression "taking coal*s *to Newcastle"?


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## Teafrog

sound shift said:


> Isn't the English expression "taking coal*s *to Newcastle"?



You are correct, it usually is "coals", but I've also seen it as singular (see the link to the cartoon page). BTW, I've fixed the 1st (main) link to 'phrases.org.uk', where their official (?) saying is "to carry…".

Thank you, Edwingill	for the "porter de l'eau à la rivière". Sounds good. Is it used as in English > "c'est comme si on portait de l'eau à la rivière"?


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## edwingill

Teafrog said:


> Thank you, Edwingill    for the "porter de l'eau à la rivière". Sounds good. Is it used as in English > "c'est comme si on portait de l'eau à la rivière"?


I think the usual expression is: c'est comme porter de l'eau à la rivière


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## jetman

Teafrog said:


> What would be the equivalent in the US?



*Preaching to the choir *is the only thing that comes to mind although that's not quite the same thing (and I don't know if it's only a US expression).

 You can make something up easily enough.

 That's like taking cheese to Wisconsin.
 That's like taking lobster to Maine.


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## edwingill

The Germans say 'taking owls to Athens' (the inhabitants of Athens already having sufficient wisdom)


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## Teafrog

Thanks again edwingilll: "c'est comme porter de l'eau à la rivière", great 
Jetman, "preaching to the choir" sounds ok, but I understand from your post that you're not 100% sure of its origins or usage. Am I correct? Is there a general term accepted and understood in the whole of the USA?
It would be interesting to have some input from Australia. Anybody out there from down-under?


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## jetman

Teafrog said:


> Jetman, "preaching to the choir" sounds ok, but I understand from your post that you're not 100% sure of its origins or usage. Am I correct? Is there a general term accepted and understood in the whole of the USA?



It would definitely be understood throughout the States.  I am uncertain as to whether or not it is used elsewhere.


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## irishman

I like "trying to sell ice to an eskimo"


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## JamesM

The difference with "preaching to the choir" (which, I agree, is a very common expression in the U.S.) is that it means "attempting to convince those who are already convinced."  It's used to signal a vain attempt to persuade someone who is already in agreement.  

That's not quite the meaning "carrying coals to Newcastle", which, to me, means that you are trying to supply or provide something that is already in abundance.

I wonder if "gilding the lily" is similar.  That's not quite it, but it does carry a meaning of an unnecessary, superfluous action.


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## JamesM

irishman said:


> I like "trying to sell ice to an eskimo"


 
This one is usually used in a positive sense, though, at least in my experience.  "He's such a great salesman that he could sell ice to an eskimo."


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## jetman

JamesM said:


> The difference with "preaching to the choir" (which, I agree, is a very common expression in the U.S.) is that it means "attempting to convince those who are already convinced." It's used to signal a vain attempt to persuade someone who is already in agreement.
> 
> That's not quite the meaning "carrying coals to Newcastle", which, to me, means that you are trying to supply or provide something that is already in abundance.



I agree, but both expressions involve doing something needlessly or superfluously.


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## geve

I agree on _c'est comme porter de l'eau à la rivière_ but that sounds a bit outdated to me... We could make up something like jetman suggested, but there might be an expression that escapes me for the moment. I'll keep racking my brain.

(It is actually not far from the idea I was trying to express in the thread métaphore pour qualifier une évidence and for which I couldn't find a ready-made expression either...)


jetman said:


> I agree, but both expressions involve doing something needlessly or superfluously.


I feel there's something more specific in "taking coal to Newcastle" than just doing something superfluous (BTW, expressions around that idea were discussed at length in the thread C'est un coup d'épée dans l'eau): it's something stupid, naive, time-consuming, with no chance of success... I'm not sure I'm being very clear here  but I don't view these two sentences (carrying coal to Newcastle/preaching to the choir) as being interchangeable.


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## edwingill

To my mind taking coals to Newcastle does mean to do something pointless and superfluous.


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## geve

Do you view it as equivalent to "preaching to the choir"? (in French: _prêcher un converti_)


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## edwingill

I think it is a stretch. I take the above idiom to mean "trying to make believers out of people who already believe"


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## geve

Yes - it seems to me that you would use_ preaching to the choir/prêcher un converti_ only when you try to convince people, so not quite the same as _taking coal to Newcastle_, which has a broader use as I understand it.


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## Nicomon

JamesM said:


> This one is usually used in a positive sense, though, at least in my experience. "He's such a great salesman that he could sell ice to an eskimo."



We have a similar expression in Quebec...  _il pourrait vendre un frigo à un esquimau_ 
(j'écrit esquimau pour la rime... il mais il vaut mieux dire inuit).


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## Gordo

''Selling sand to the Arabs''


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## LARSAY

You can also say _amener du sable au Sahara_


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## silvae

Aussie here! ^^ The one I use is "carryning coals to Newcastle" but I'm sure we've made up our own version, it just doesn't come to mind...


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## Teafrog

silvae said:


> Aussie here! ^^ The one I use is "carrying coals to Newcastle" but I'm sure we've made up our own version, it just doesn't come to mind...



Any chance of checking with other Aussies/Kiwis?
I'm still pondering as to what the N. Americans say… Is there an equivalent?


> Yes - it seems to me that you would use preaching to the choir/prêcher un converti only when you try to convince people, so not quite the same as taking coal to Newcastle, which has a broader use as I understand it.


… And what do you think of this "Gallic Shrug"? Is it like taking coals to Newcastle / comme porter de l'eau à la rivière ??
Do you think the term can be applied for it (the thread, I mean)? I personally think it does but now I have my doubts


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## Striker

And one my husband is always saying in French "Apporter sa bière à Munich"
Probably doesn't help, but it's a nice expression.


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## cycloneviv

silvae said:


> Aussie here! ^^ The one I use is "carrying coals to Newcastle" but I'm sure we've made up our own version, it just doesn't come to mind...


That sounds fine to me too, partially thanks to the fact that one of the major coal-producing cities in Australia is also called Newcastle (probably because coal was found there, but I can't be sure.)

I can't think of a purely Australian version of the idiom.


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## Teafrog

cycloneviv said:


> That sounds fine to me too, partially thanks to the fact that one of the major coal-producing cities in Australia is also called Newcastle (probably because coal was found there, but I can't be sure.)
> 
> I can't think of a purely Australian version of the idiom.



Wow, that's amazing! I would have never have guessed in a million years. Thanks Cycloneviv. 
That's nailed it for Oz, what about the USA?


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## jetman

> Originally Posted by *geve*
> Do you view it as equivalent to "preaching to the choir"? (in French: _prêcher un converti_)





			
				edwingill said:
			
		

> I think it is a stretch. I take the above idiom to mean "trying to make believers out of people who already believe"



I agree, they are not the same.  It is the closest expression that came to mind. 

On this page: Coals to Newcastle - phrase meaning and origin
they say "to sell refrigerators to the Eskimos" is the current American equivalent although I can't say that I've ever heard it before. To be politically correct these days I guess we would say "like selling ice to the Inuit," but I fear we might owe the credit for this expression to our Canadian friends.


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## doodlebugger

_Apporter sa saucisse à Francfort_.

The first time I heard this one was from a friend of mine questioning my rationale for going to Rio with my girlfriend


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## Teafrog

jetman said:


> On this page: Coals to Newcastle - phrase meaning and origin
> they say "to sell refrigerators to the Eskimos" is the current American equivalent although I can't say that I've ever heard it before. To be politically correct these days I guess we would say "like selling ice to the Inuit," but I fear we might owe the credit for this expression to our Canadian friends.


That's brilliant jetman, thanks a lot. 
It looks from it that it might well be the same in the USA. Am I correct in saying this? The "sell fridges to the Eskimos" expression isn't quite the same thing, as it merely indicates an ability to accomplish the 'almost-impossible'


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## Nicomon

jetman said:


> I "to sell refrigerators to the Eskimos" To be politically correct these days I guess we would say "like selling ice to the Inuit," but I fear we might owe the credit for this expression to our Canadian friends.


 
Which expression? the "refrigerators" one or the "Inuit vs Eskimos" one?
In either case, fear no more . We do use the expression with fridge as opposed to ice (see post #19) and Inuit is indeed a Canadian adopted word to replace Eskimo. 

*Teafrog*  imo, the expression can be interpreted 2 ways. Either ability (so good they could sell...) or futility... _autant vendre un frigo à un esquimau _
But it is more often heard in the first sense. At least in Quebec, it is.


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## jetman

Nicomon said:


> Which expression?  the "refrigerators" one or the "Inuit vs Eskimos" one?
> In either case, fear no more . We do use the expression with fridge as opposed to ice (see post #19) and Inuit is indeed a Canadian adopted word to replace Eskimo.


Yes, I meant Eskimo vs. Inuit.  Refrigerators are OK.  Ice is easier to spell.


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## Roger Hudson

I agree with edwingill but with a slight variation 'porter de l'eau au moulin'


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## doodlebugger

Roger Hudson said:


> I agree with edwingill but with a slight variation 'porter de l'eau au moulin'



Welcome to the Forum Roger 
I beg to differ though, _porter de l'eau au moulin _means _making the case for somebody_.
_Tu apportes de l'eau à mon moulin = you are making my case for me_


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## Roger Hudson

You're quite right. I'd read it in San Antonio (which is the next best thing to the Académie Française) and I'd jumped to the erroneous conclusion that it meant 'Coals to Newcastle'. Thanks for that.


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## LMorland

Teafrog, I'm late to the party, but I wanted to assure you that "taking coals to Newcastle" is an expression still very much in use in the U.S. 

 In fact, I landed on this page because a French friend told me that she had purchased _de bonnes saucisses aux Halles de Narbonne pour emmener_ [sic]_ à Lyon._

I'd always thought that Lyon, being the gastronomic capital of France, was famous for its "bonnes saucisses" as well as a host of other specialties.  So I typed "Newcastle" into the search engine, hoping that I'd land on the equivalent French phrase with which to "tease" my friend ... and so I did!  

_Merci à tous._


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## LMorland

Funny, I just scrolled through this thread, having completely forgotten that I'd contributed to it over five years ago. 

When I grew up in the U.S., the phrase in common use was _like *sending *coals to Newcastle."  _Maybe because we're so far away, we couldn't possibly _carry _coals there.

In my mind's eye, I always imagined a boat travelling to Newcastle, full of (superfluous) coals.

And in case it's not been completely cleared up above, the phrase _preaching to the choir _is *not* equivalent to _sending/carrying coals to Newcastle, _for the reasons already well adumbrated. (And yes, we normally use the word "the choir" in the U.S., as well as "the converted.")


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## wildan1

LMorland said:


> When I grew up in the U.S., the phrase in common use was _like *sending *coals to Newcastle."_


And in my experience growing up in the U.S. Midwest, I always have heard _*carrying* coals to Newcastle._

I have never encountered _"like selling refrigerators to Eskimos"_ anywhere before, although it is quite clear that its meaning is similar.


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## tartopom

It might just be me but 
taking, carrying coals to Newcastle means that we're doing sth pointless specially when the action would contribute to an existing surplus.
but
selling fridges to Eskimos denotes a very slick salesperson uses their power to sell people things they don't need.


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## Nanon

On a aussi eu ce fil, entre autres... sell sand to the Arabs

Et en français aussi, _vendre des frigos_ (des réfrigérateurs ou des frigidaires, si vous voulez) _au pôle Nord _se dit d'un truc inutile mais aussi (surtout ?) d'un vendeur exceptionnel capable de vous faire acheter absolument n'importe quoi - j'étais en train d'écrire ça en même temps que @tartopom postait son message ci-dessus  .

On trouvera ici quelques variantes issues d'un dictionnaire d'expressions françaises publié en 1789 : _porter du cidre en Normandie, du jambon à Mayence..._ Matinées sénonoises Manifestement, l'auteur trouvait cela plus original que _porter de l'eau à la mer _ou _à la rivière._


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## LMorland

tartopom said:


> ... selling fridges to Eskimos denotes a very slick salesperson uses their power to sell people things they don't need.


No, it's not just you, tartopom; you're absolutely right: the two phrases do _not _mean the same thing.  The phrase "like selling refrigerators to Eskimos" (a locution I've also never heard before) would mean exactly what you state.

(I believe that somebody made that point higher up in the thread.)

EDIT: Merci, Nanon ! I was hoping that French had an expression with a placename in it -- _porter de l'eau à la mer_ is kinda bland.


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## Nanon

However, @LMorland , that book is the only place where I found _porter du cidre en Normandie_ , so it's just a suggestion, no more than that. For a more common expression with a placename, maybe_ vendre du sable au Sahara _- but again, it's about sales.


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## LMorland

Ah, @Nanon, I just found your reference: 





> de si trivial, que j'aimerois mieux dire, en observant les circonstances des lieux & des personnes, _Porter du cidre en Normandie_, des jambons à Mayence, & c . Les Grecs disoient dans le même sens, porter du bled en Egypte, & du safran en Cicilie...


A bit dusty, that!


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## Nanon

LMorland said:


> Ah, @Nanon, I just found your reference: A bit dusty, that!


I told you - 1789!_ De derrière les fagots ! _


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## Locape

Nanon said:


> For a more common expression with a placename, maybe_ vendre du sable au Sahara _- but again, it's about sales.


The common idiom is more 'amener du sable au Sahara', like @LARSAY said (post #21). You have also 'apporter sa bière à Munich' (post #24) or 'apporter sa/des saucisse(s) à Francfort' (post #28). 
My (Norman) grandmother still says sometimes 'autant apporter du cidre/des pommes en Normandie'.


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