# ogur



## paulvial

Good evening 

I wonder if anyone can confirm whether "ogur " in turkish means arrow ??? 
(I am reading a book talking about the origins of certain words , and read that "hongrois " the french term for "hungarian " comes from the turkish word "ogur " meaning arrow ... the story goes that in the XVI century , when the Turks invaded Maggyar country , they had been impressed by the arrows used by the Maggyars , and that is why they called them Ogurs , ... which turned into hongrois in french ..... )
So i just wanted to check some of the facts behind this story , starting by the meaning of this word ogur (bear in mind the spelling might be wrong as it may have been adjusted to fit a french sound 

thanking you in advance


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## Rallino

I checked an old dictionary of mine, I couldn't find the word *ogur*.

Arrow in turkish is *ok*

Bow and arrow = *yay *ve *ok* .

Maybe it's arabic or something?


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## paulvial

Rallino said:


> I checked an old dictionary of mine, I couldn't find the word *ogur*.
> 
> Arrow in turkish is *ok*
> 
> Bow and arrow = *yay *ve *ok* .
> 
> Maybe it's arabic or something?


Thanks for your help , but the author is quite specific as to the provenance    
May be "ok" is pronounced in such a way that it sounds like "ogur " in french !


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## Rallino

no I'm quite sure that it doesn't sound like that.

(Ça sonnerait en français comme  "Langue d'_*oc*_"   Mais il est bien possible que la prononciation du mot ait changé avec le temps ou alors les français ont changé la prononciation de façon qu'on puisse prononcer le mot plus facilement. )


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## paulvial

Rallino said:


> no I'm quite sure that it doesn't sound like that.
> 
> (Ça sonnerait en français comme  "Langue d'_*oc*_"   Mais il est bien possible que la prononciation du mot ait changé avec le temps ou alors les français ont changé la prononciation de façon qu'on puisse prononcer le mot plus facilement. )


Merci beaucoup pour ces précisions , il me faudra donc faire d'autres recherches .  L'auteur est professeur émérite de linguistique à l'université de Rennes et présidente de la Société internationale de linguistique fonctionnelle. 
Je dois donc supposer qu'elle a bien étudié sons cas , même si personne n'est infaillible  
merci encore


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## Volcano

*Hello paulvial

Might it be öğür ?*


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## paulvial

Volcano said:


> *Hello paulvial
> 
> Might it be öğür ?*


Does it also mean "arrow "   ?


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## Rallino

the only thing "öğür" makes me think of is the root of the verb "öğürmek" which means "to gag", unless it has a meaning that I am not aware of.


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## Volcano

*I found:

On ogurs is Onogurlar.On ogurs is old Turkish, and it means ten arrows.*


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## paulvial

Bravo Volcano , many thanks for taking the time to help 

Thank you to both of you


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## Rallino

Oh that's great, I'm glad that Volcano found that!

Sorry Paulvial to make you think that your professor was wrong hehe, it's just my lack of turkish knowledge let's say


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## paulvial

Rallino said:


> Oh that's great, I'm glad that Volcano found that!
> 
> Sorry Paulvial to make you think that your professor was wrong hehe, it's just my lack of turkish knowledge let's say


You have been most helpful , and I am sure your knowledge of the language is excellent.


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## Zsuzsu

Hi there everybody,

I would like to add that the Onogurs were a tribal union of Ogurs (Ugors), who founded the Onogur-Bulgarian Empire on the northern shore of the Black Sea around 630. At the end of the 660s, due to the attacks of the Magyars (it's with one "g") and Kazars the Empire collapsed. A part of the Onogur-Bulgarians founded Volga-Bulgaria, while their other part crossed the Danube and founded Danube-Bulgaria... 

Most probably the Magyars got their name (Ungar, Hungarian etc.) from the above-mentioned onogurs - it was difficult for the scribes of the settled peoples to differentiate between the various nomadic peoples (the Greeks called almost every nomad people Huns, while the Chinese called them Scythas, just because they were very similar), so it often happened that one people was confused with another one. 

As to the etymology of "ogur": although it is common to link this word with Turkish "arrow", there is a linguistic problem with this etymology (i.e. On Ogur = "ten Arrows" (On Oq + collective suffix)). The proto-Turkic "arrow" was "oq" and linguists can't find a reason why it should become /g/ in intervocalic position.

One more thing: even if it should mean "ten arrows", it does not refer to the weapon but to a military unit (like "sum" in Mongolian, which now refers to "district").

It is possible that the French term "hongrois" comes from the names Ogur, Onogur, your book, however, is wrong stating that the Turks gave this name to the Hungarians during their 150-year (EDIT: sorry, 100-year was only a typo) occupation. The association of the people and the name origins from much earlier times.

EDIT: Furthermore, in the 16th century, bows and arrows were not very common in Hungarian military any longer; they used more advanced weapons. Consequently, the statement that the 16th-century Turks were impressed by Hungarian arrows and that's why they called them Ogurs fits into a folktale but not in science. And it would be also wrong to assume that the Turks gave the name for the same reason but at the time when Hungarians really used bows and arrows, because at that time the Turk groups, being very similar nomadic peoples, used almost the same weaponry, so I don't see any reason why they should have been impressed by the Hungarians.
Please do not forget, however, that as I wrote above, the "arrow" here is a social or military unit that existed among several nomadic peoples at that time, and even if we accept the Onogur=Ten arrows etymology (which raises doubts among the circle of linguists), it should refer to "ten units" and not "ten weapons".


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## paulvial

Thank you Zsuzsu for these useful precisions . 
I must admit that I am sceptica about the assertion and that is why I am enquiring in different ways 
You have been helpful and you are encouraging me to further my investigations


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## dawar

Bonjour je ne connais pas grand chose au sujet mais j'ai un livre de Minorsky sous la main (Revue de Hongrie, 1937). Il précise que les Onoghour ou Onoghoundour ont été organisés en temps que nation sous l'influence d'une élite turque.. Peut être que ça peut expliquer l'origine du nom..


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## lepanto

ogur must be "engürüs/üngürüs in old Ottoman language means Hungarian.


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## bilig

Hi everyone, my English is bad, i hope i can wrtie 

In Proto-Türkish (or Base Türkish) last letter *r* be in Old Türkish* z*.For example ; P.T. *bor * (grey) > O.T. *boz *(grey) etc...

Proto Türkish **yır-* > ~ Onogur (Magyar) *ír-* _writing_

In Old Greek *grapho*, old Arabic *hatt*, Latin *scribere* mean; _scratch, notching_ Proto Türkish *yır-* means same, and there are in Türkish a lot of derivative, *yırt*- is factitive form means today's Türkish _tearing_. Same origin *yar- * means _fracture_.

*yır*- > **yırmak *> *ırmak *means in Türkish _river, cannal_.

yır- > yar- > *yaz*- in Today's Türkish mean _writing_.Hungarian *ír-* and Türkish *yaz-* is same < *yır*- PT

In Oguz Türk languages, first letter *y * be *ç *(ch) Kuman Türk languages; yol = chol (road), yok = chok (absent), yıldız = chıldız (star) etc...

Oguz *yır*- = Kuman *chır*- (çır-) > Oguz *yız*- = Kuman *chız- / chiz*- wrtie, 2) drawing > ~ Mongolian *chiru*- borrowing from Türkish.

Türkey's Türks are *Oguz*, Oguz in Proto Türkish *Ogur*.There are Türk peoples *Tokuz Oguz* (nine Oguz) in Proto Türkish *Tokur Ogur* and Hungarians > *On Ogur* (ten Ogur)

*Ogur *and *Ugor *maybe same word ?

*Ogur *is not *arrow*, arrow in Türkish *ok*.

*Ogur*, in Köktürük languages means_ fortune, good luck, __auspiciousness_, and Today's Türkish *Uğur *(ughur) Maybe Uygur (Uighur) too same word.?


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