# ... needs changed or needs changing?



## Elwintee

panjandrum said:


> We change nappies in the UK.
> I don't know what you want to say about this fascinating process, but here are some recent conversations.
> 
> I'm going to change A's nappy.
> Here, have A. Her nappy needs changed.
> What's that funny smell?  I think A needs a clean nappy.
> Where's S?
> She went to change A's nappy.
> Have you changed A since she arrived?
> 
> Edit:  My last example echoes Richard Beevor's - in which the article itself is completely omitted and it is the baby that is changed.
> That happens here too, but it's much less common than the other examples.
> 
> Second edit: You've edited the original question!!
> 
> Third edit:  No matter, the terminology is the same - assuming you are talking about cleaning the bits of baby that would be concealed by nappy.



I agree with all you say, Panj, except for your example:
* Here, have A. Her nappy needs changed.
* I'm sure you'll agree that this should read: "needs changing".


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## panjandrum

Elwintee said:


> I agree with all you say, Panj, except for your example:
> * Here, have A. Her nappy needs changed.
> * I'm sure you'll agree that this should read: "needs changing".


Needs changing is very English English from my perspective.
Here, what I wrote is what we'd say.
*Here, have A. Her nappy needs (to be) changed.

*I'll look for the thread where this question was discussed and post it shortly - if I can find it.

The question is this.

Elwintee's baby needs her nappy changing.
My baby needs her nappy changed.

Which do you prefer and why?
Is one of them considered incorrect?


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## ewie

If there was one thing guaranteed to make my mother gasp in horror at my English it was:

_I think the cat wants fed_.

I only did it to tease, of course


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## Forero

I wouldn't say "have A" in this context, but I would say "her diaper needs changing" or "her diaper needs to be changed", but not "her diaper needs to be changing" (active rather than passive) and probably not "her diaper needs changed", though this last does make the right kind of sense.

In "her diaper needs changing", "changing" stands for "being changed".  Where there is no ambiguity, a plain gerund can work as a passive gerund.

In "her diaper needs changed", we have a past participle used as a ... passive infinitive?  A noun?  Not any stranger really than "I think A is afraid of the slide and she wants down", which I might say myself.

And I might say "She needs her diaper changed" for "she needs her diaper to be changed", and "I saw her diaper changed" for "I saw her diaper being changed."

It seems, if I say them enough times, "her diaper needs changed" and "the cat wants fed" sound more and more natural to me. 

Perhaps there is linguistic pressure to make this (little) leap?


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## jucami

The difference in opinion seems to be regional.  When I moved from Michigan to Ohio, I noticed people saying things like "Her diaper needs changed," and "The table needs washed," and it sounded _very _strange to me.  I was used to hearing "Her diaper needs to be changed" or "needs changing," but certainly the meaning of "needs changed" is clear.  Constructions like "needs changed" can sound incorrect to people who are unfamiliar with them, but in some places they are used frequently.


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## cuchuflete

Thanks for the contribution, Jucami.  I had a college roommate from Dayton, and he never used such constructions.  I spent months on business trips to various parts of Ohio, and never heard such things.  I wonder if you could characterize the speakers who say things like "The table needs washed"?  Is it regional within Ohio, or particular to a certain age group?

I'm not doubting that you are reporting what you hear, but it sounds very odd to me.  I've never come across it in any part of the U.S., and would like to learn more.


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## Loob

My Scottish husband says "needs changed".

I say "needs changing".


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## jucami

Here in Columbus, I hear "needs washed" from all kinds of people - my friends, my teachers...although I guess I maintain a Detroiter's prejudice against it.  Google results tell me it is a common construction in western Pennsylvania and eastern Ohio (so a Dayton native wouldn't be likely to say it), as well as a pretty controversial topic among grammar enthusiasts.
http://www.bartleby.com/61/79/N0047901.html


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## ewie

Forgot to mention that _the baby's nappy needs changed_ doesn't sound at all unusual to me ('unremarkworthy' as someone once said), and my mother probably _wouldn't_ gasp at that one.  But similar constructions with _want*_ sound very very Lancashire to me.

*I've been trying to think if this kind of thing's possible with any _other_ verbs/auxiliaries/doodahs, so far without success.


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## Blootix

In California, I have never heard people say "needs changed," or "needs washed."  It sounds very strange to me as well.  I would say "needs changing" or "needs to be changed" (probably the former).


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## panjandrum

A new day, a fresh brain, a thread found:*
I want my hair cut/to be cut  *

It looks at very similar constructions.
* 
*


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## Elwintee

panjandrum said:


> Needs changing is very English English from my perspective.
> Here, what I wrote is what we'd say.
> *Here, have A. Her nappy needs (to be) changed.
> 
> *I'll look for the thread where this question was discussed and post it shortly - if I can find it.
> 
> The question is this.
> 
> Elwintee's baby needs her nappy changing.
> My baby needs her nappy changed.
> 
> Which do you prefer and why?
> Is one of them considered incorrect?



We seem to have lost sight of the original sentence.  I went for "... her nappy needs changing" (rather than "changed"), but this has been converted in later posts to "... needs her nappy changing", which I would not say myself.  *She needs her nappy changing* (not OK by me) is quite different from *her nappy needs changing* (OK by me).   I would say "*she needs to have her nappy changed*".  Sorry if this just adds to the confusion!


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## panjandrum

Good point, and I apologise for the change in structure.
Here are four possible structures 
1. Her nappy needs changing.
2. Her nappy needs changed.
3. Bella needs her nappy changing.
4. Bella needs her nappy changed.

From my part of the world, (2) and (4) are normal.
In (2), _to be_ has been elided.
In (4) _to have_ has been elided.
(1) and (3) are strange and I consider them typical of English English-speakers. 
Of these, (3) sounds especially strange but it reflects a structure I have heard many times from natives of the north or north-west of England.

Elwintee, if I understand right, would consider (1) to be normal and (4) to be OK without the elision?


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## Elwintee

panjandrum said:


> Good point, and I apologise for the change in structure.
> Here are four possible structures
> 1. Her nappy needs changing.
> 2. Her nappy needs changed.
> 3. Bella needs her nappy changing.
> 4. Bella needs her nappy changed.
> 
> From my part of the world, (2) and (4) are normal.
> In (2), _to be_ has been elided.
> In (4) _to have_ has been elided.
> (1) and (3) are strange and I consider them typical of English English-speakers.
> Of these, (3) sounds especially strange but it reflects a structure I have heard many times from natives of the north or north-west of England.
> 
> Elwintee, if I understand right, would consider (1) to be normal and (4) to be OK without the elision?



Yes, absolutely.  But it's fascinating to see how others would tackle this!


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## ewie

They _all_ sound fine to me: I'd expect to hear any of them in the NW.  BUT: (2) and (4) definitely have more of an (erm) vernacular ring to them.
I would also expect to hear _any_ of them but using _want_ instead of _need_ because (now that I come to think of it) _want_ is quite often used to mean _need_.


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## Packard

To my ear, "her diaper needs changed" would mean that she no longer is using Type I diapers and now requires Type II diapers.  "Her diaper needs [have] changed."  For that reason, I would avoid that phrasing.


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## LV4-26

I suppose those who say "_her nappy needs changed_" would also say
_The floor needs swept_
Or would they?


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## panjandrum

LV4-26 said:


> I suppose those who say "_her nappy needs changed_" would also say
> _The floor needs swept_
> Or would they?


Essentially yes.  I might not use sweep, but I believe that in general where Elwintee would say something needs verbing I would say that it needs verbed.  The floor needs cleaned, washed or brushed.

Some of the references others have listed above suggest that such usage is Scottish.  We are very close to the Scots in such matters 

From the deep thought that was involved in the 2005 thread (and I think there's another one yet to be found) I think this difference in usage is closely related to a subtle difference in the understanding of the verbs _need _and _want_.


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## MagdaDH

Loob said:


> My Scottish husband says "needs changed".
> 
> I say "needs changing".



We moved up to Scotland about 2 years ago.

I got a letter - an official letter about inoculations - which said something exactly like that (_*children need inoculated*_ or similar).

When I mentioned it to the Health Visitor & and one of the GPs (who happened to be in the same room at the same time) they both said in unison _but that's correct!_.


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## panjandrum

Another find!
*want as a suggestion*


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## Forero

panjandrum said:


> Good point, and I apologise for the change in structure.
> Here are four possible structures
> 1. Her nappy needs changing.
> 2. Her nappy needs changed.
> 3. Bella needs her nappy changing.
> 4. Bella needs her nappy changed.
> 
> From my part of the world, (2) and (4) are normal.
> In (2), _to be_ has been elided.
> In (4) _to have_ has been elided.
> (1) and (3) are strange and I consider them typical of English English-speakers.
> Of these, (3) sounds especially strange but it reflects a structure I have heard many times from natives of the north or north-west of England.
> 
> Elwintee, if I understand right, would consider (1) to be normal and (4) to be OK without the elision?


Where I come from, I have to "translate" _nappy_ to _diaper_, then 1 and 4 are natural, and I can get used to 2, but 3 says she needs her diaper to be in the process of making a change, perhaps becoming some other thing with no help from outside hands.


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## iskndarbey

My native dialect is that of Northern Ohio and you can't say "her diaper needs changed" there. It would have to be "needs changing" or "needs to be changed".

Further south in Ohio, and throughout large areas of the American South, you will hear "needs changed".


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## duhong

Dear All,

1-Something needs to be done
2-Something needs doing

As far as I know verb 'need' + ing or infinitive shows different meaning, but I'm not sure it does in this case. Are they really different literally?

Thank you very much and God blesses you All.


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## elroy

"Something needs doing" sounds extremely strange.

"Something needs to be done" is correct.


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## ewie

Moderator/member note: Hello Duhong.  I've added your question to the end of an old thread which dealt with the same subject.  As you can see from the answers given above, this is a surprisingly complex issue, with rather a lot of regional variation.  If you have more questions after reading all this (and there are a couple of links to _other_ previous threads here too), feel free to ask them here


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## se16teddy

In my experience, 
_- X needs/wants doing_ is the normal informal form; 
- _X needs/wants done_ is a regional variant, which I associate with Scotland;
- _X needs to be done_ is fine, and may be preferable in formal writing.
- _X wants to be done_ is not grammatical.


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## elroy

I just want to clarify that I was referring to the specific sentence "Something needs doing," which is what I assumed duhong was asking about.

Sentences like "The car needs fixing," "The wall needs painting," etc. are completely normal in my experience, but I would never say "Something needs doing."  I would say "Something needs to be done."


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## liliput

_Awful, nonsensical_, _wrong_ and _mistake_ are the first words that come to mind when I look at the phrase "her nappy needs changed" but that's just my perception, clearly it's used and acceptable in other dialects. Not "Standard English" though, I would say.


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## Ynez

Well, from the point of view of a non-native, both look equally illogical and nongrammatical, with the -ing form looking a bit weirder. 

Anyhow, in our books we learn the majoritarian versions (need -ing/to be -ed).


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## Forero

I would say "Something needs doing" if I have a particular "something" in mind. To say that doing nothing in unacceptable, I would say "Something needs to be done", not "Something needs doing."

"_X_ wants to be done" is personifying _X_, which is a different thing altogether.


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## majlo

Hello,
Do you come across or use yourselves this form? Is this even possible? For example, _The dog needs fed. _If it's possible, is it more frequent than the version with 'to be'?


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## Rover_KE

'The dog needs fed' is not possible.

You could say 'The dog needs feeding'.

Rover


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## Gwan

Where did _you _come across this form? "The dog needs feeding" or (of course) "the dog needs food" are okay, but not "the dog needs fed". I can't rule out that someone, somewhere might say "the dog needs fed" but I don't recall ever seeing this form, and I definitely would say it is not more common than "the dog needs to be fed".


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## entangledbank

I believe it's used dialectally - Scottish, perhaps? I seem to recall discussion of it in books. The standard construction is the overt passive 'needs to be fed' or the covert passive 'needs feeding'.


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## majlo

http://engleash.net/mit-o-czasowniku-need#more-4001

In this entry you can see the usage marked on the map of the USA. Perhaps it's an AmE thing?


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## OneStroke

http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/needs-washed.aspx

It's one of my favourite episodes!


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## Gwan

Thanks for the source majlo. It does seem to be a regional American usage (as well as possibly being used elsewhere, as per entangledbank). The link from OneStroke froze my browser (I gather it's a podcast? Some file types don't seem to go well with my Mac) but I found a post on Language Log on "needs washed" (with reference to the Grammar Girl podcast) with a similar-ish map (in English this time) http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3422


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## sound shift

I too had a feeling that I had heard this in Scotland. Someone from Dalgety Bay, Scotland, writes that "the dog needs fed" at post no. 9 on this page .http://www.ukgser.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175984


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## JamesM

The podcast actually states that it originated in Scotland/Ireland and was brought to the U.S. by immigrants.  She also says that some people in her survey were stunned to hear that anyone said it anywhere, while people in the region were surprised to find out that everyone didn't say it.

It's definitely a regionalism.  Whether it's more common than the "to be" version in conversation probably depends on your location and background.

(I highly recommend listening to the podcast, by the way.  It's very interesting and informative.)


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## ewie

This subject has come up before: see above


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## panjandrum

"The dog needs fed," is eqivalent to "The dog needs to be fed."
It is a perfectly natural sentence in my version of English.

"The dog needs feeding," is not.  As I suggested above, it would mark the speaker as English English.


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## majlo

Would "The TV needs repairing." mark the speaker as English English?

P.S. Does "English English" mean that you sound non-native?


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## JamesM

Non-native of which country, majlo?  Panjandrum is Irish.  He speaks Irish English.  I'm sure he sounds completely native to other Irishmen.


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## majlo

I meant non-native of the English language.


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## ribran

English English = English as spoken by natives of England


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