# Mistaken Identity



## pacificblue

I have noticed lately that a lot of my customers are commenting on the local bakery in the area which is owned by a Korean family ... but whenever people comment on it they always mention the "Chineese Bakery" and I wonder if cases of mistaken race/ethnicity ever offends others because it REALLY frustrates me when people say things like this ... or worse, people just say "The Asian Bakery" and I tend to think comments like that are full of negative connotations ...  

Overreaction on my behalf ?


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## Layzie

As a hispanic, a lot of people assume I'm Mexican. It used to bug me when  I was a younger kid, not so much anymore nowadays. I'll just patiently correct them. Here in the US it tends to be all asians are chinese, and all hispanics are mexican. I really can't force knowledge on everyone, so if the general public doesnt want to take the time to educate itself a little more on recognizing different cultures, then I just have to deal with it. Personally, I'm american first, but I know some people who are upset by it.


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## MonsieurAquilone

As a New Zealander as well, I personally believe New Zealanders often are ignorant to such matters. Because China is the most populous Asian nation and many Asian languages have characters, and many Asians share physical characteristics, people, I think do not care if it is Chinese or Korean. With more cultural knowledge, you will find that the Korean language (characters and all) is distinct from Chinese and Koreans look different etc...

I agree with you.


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## Otter

I believe it is an over reaction.

I had a Taiwanese/American roommate once who thought the words "orient" and "oriental" should be "off the books", meaning removed from books but she wouldn't admit she believed in censorship.

Here in the U.S., many asians seem to want all (white) people to notice which country of origin each asian is from (what if they're half Chinese/half Korean, like my dentist?)  However, I don't notice anyone calling white Americans by their country of ethnic origin - like, "oh the German/Swedish/Irish/Polish American lady down the block."  They just call her the white lady down the block.

So, politically correct, perhaps I am not.  But, yes, I think it's a bit over-reactive.  If, however, you feel it's important, you might mention to your friends that you believe the bakery owners are Korean.


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## .   1

The first large scale contact that Australian people had with with people from Asia was with Chinese at the turn of the previous century and the first take-away food we had was from the Chinese cafe (we had to bring our own pots to take it home) and there would be very few towns in Australia that do not have a Chinese cafe. _Chinese _takeaway refers to a whole range of food from the Asian area and could not possibly be considered demeaning at all in Australia. 

On a person to person basis it is important to observe nationality but I would not care much for the company of a bloke who was irritated with me because I was so ignorant as to ascribe the wrong nationality.

I am not insulted if I am referred to as a New Zealander or an Englander or a Canadian as I sound and look like many people from those areas.

.,,


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## Pivra

I don't know, when Thai people talk about other cultures we seem to talk more about thier products, medias, songs, and celebs. Like Australia= We have this guy on our TV shows who is from Australia but speaks perfect Thai, flawless (his grammar is better than mine lol) named Andrew Biggs. People may talk about Nicole Kidman, or kangaroos and we think about sending students to Australia for an exchange program mainly. We dont actually discuss things like "Hey, how is Australia different from New Zealand." or "Hey, how do they live?". But if something is from an english speaking country, it must be good, somehow, I don't understand.


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## Seana

pacificblue said:
			
		

> (...) Overreaction on my behalf ?


Hello pacificblue,
Yes I see it as your little bit overreaction.
Quote:


			
				pacificblue said:
			
		

> _(...) or worse, people just say "The Asian Bakery" and I tend to think comments like that are full of negative connotations ..._


Why do you see  called them Asians as a mistaken identity? I don't think that could be full of negative connotations. 
After all our individual features, the cultural separatness and diversity of nations should and really make richness of entire world culture. If it wouln't be only copying offensive and fake stereotypes these epithets like Italian, French, Chinese cuisine or bit different the German „Ordnung”, the phlegmatic British character, the Swiss pedantry etc. In my opinion they all should be friendly accepted with suinting up eye, or moreover should be treated as the sort of brand of the quality.


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## maxiogee

Otter said:
			
		

> However, I don't notice anyone calling white Americans by their country of ethnic origin - like, "oh the German/Swedish/Irish/Polish American lady down the block."  They just call her the white lady down the block.



Do they really? Or do they just say "the lady down the block"?
I don't believe most white people mention whiteness, unless it is to distinguish it from other colours, and in your instance would only say "white lady" if she were the lone (or almost lone) white in a sea of other colours.


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## MarcB

In the US the dominant look is northern European. So there seems to be no need to speak about nationaity. Although people often ask us are you German, Dutch, In my case Belgian descent. Other ethnic groups people call Chinese for many east Asians, remember they are always outside of the norm even if they have been here for several generations. So the comparison is not the same. Maxiogee is right we do not usually say the white lady unless it is in a police report. People who are marginalized due to race are more sensative to being called the wrong ethnic group than those who are not.


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## Brioche

. said:
			
		

> there would be very few towns in Australia that do not have a Chinese cafe. _Chinese _takeaway refers to a whole range of food from the Asian area and could not possibly be considered demeaning at all in Australia.


 
In Australia many of the Vietamese and Thai restaurants are operated by Chinese people, often ethnic Chinese who used to live in Vietnam or Thailand. So are they Chinese, or Vietnamese or Thai? 

Among the refugees from Vietnam in the late 70s were ethnic Chinese, and Vietnamese names such as Tran or Trieu may be the Chinese names Chan or Zhao in disguise.

We also have lots of students from Malaysia, many of whom are also ethnic Chinese. They study here because of the pro-Malay, anti-Chinese and anti-Indian 'affirmative action' policies of the Malaysian government, which exclude them from study at home.


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## übermönch

In Germany all dark skinned people are called Turks which is sometimes insulting especially they are actually Kurds are Armenians. Some former Turks also hate being called that way, because the word has already received a negative taint just like the english "negroe". Same goes for ethic Germans returning from  eastern  European  countries like Hungary, Romania or Kazakhstan. They get really upset if they're not regarded as Germans, but they in fact are never regarded as Germans and are thus permanently upset, just as people who're called Turks and they, out of protest, often act extraterragetly nationalistic for the country they're associated with. So you could see kurdic youth weaving turkish flags etc etc.. They, being absorbed by the soceity have their own paralell soceities.


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## maxiogee

übermönch said:
			
		

> In Germany all dark skinned people are called Turks which is sometimes insulting



You think that's insulting?   

The Irish language gets really insulting - we can't even get the colour right, or even close to right! 
The Irish for *negro* is *fear gorm* - _*fear*_ is the Irish for man, _*gorm*_ is the Irish for blue! 
(_negress_ would be _bean gorm_)


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## badgrammar

I understand why you would have that reaction to people calling all asiatic-looking people Chinese, as it is not that difficult to distinguish between Chinese, Taiwanese, Korean, Japanese, Vietnamese people if you are paying even just a little bit of attention.  

But why be upset over the "asian bakery" thing?  That's weird, because Asian is the word that the rest of the world uses to describe people from the above non-exhaustive list of countries in Asia.

Where I used to live in Baltimore, there was an Austrian guy who had a bakery down the street.  People just called it the European bakery.  They were therefore correct, because the guy was from Europe.  Same in your example.  Korea is a counry in Asia.  

So maybe a little overeaction, but I do think you're right that people should make an effort.


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## Brioche

badgrammar said:
			
		

> I understand why you would have that reaction to people calling all asiatic-looking people Chinese, as it is not that difficult to distinguish between Chinese, Taiwanese, Korean, Japanese, Vietnamese people if you are paying even just a little bit of attention.


 
You can tell Chinese from Taiwanese?
The Taiwanese are Chinese!
There are a few Aboriginal Taiwanese left, about 2% of the population. 
Most of the rest are descendants of Fujian Chinese and Hakka Chinese. Around 12% are post WWII immigrants from the mainland.


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## Brioche

maxiogee said:
			
		

> You think that's insulting?
> 
> The Irish language gets really insulting - we can't even get the colour right, or even close to right!
> The Irish for *negro* is *fear gorm* - _*fear*_ is the Irish for man, _*gorm*_ is the Irish for blue!
> (_negress_ would be _bean gorm_)


 
Wouldn't she be _*bean ghorm*_?


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## Vanda

In my country Arabian, Syrian, Lebanese and Turks are all called _Turks_. Actually the first immigrants were Lebanese. Until now, I mean 10 minutes ago, I didn't know why, so I went researching and have just discovered it. The reason they were all called Turks has to do with history, and that includes the reason for all Americas and Europe according to the register. Here's an excerpt from the article (although in Pt , Spanish natives can read it, I guess). The period is around or after 1860.



> ... Seu único recurso era emigrar, mas o Monte Líbano, ... não podia emitir passaportes e os libaneses tinham que viajar com passaportes de autoridades turcas; ....Na Europa e nas Américas, o nome turco era bastante desprestigiado. Os libaneses foram chamados de turcos de acordo com o seu passaporte ...


 source here. 
When Lebanese needed to immigrate they couldn't issue their own passport and depended on the Turkey authorities to have a passport, thus they became known according to their passport. 
There's a story (see the excerpt) about a Lebanese descendant in Colombia who lost an election, 1946, because of his opponent's slogan: "Gaitan? Si, turco? No". 
Until today the above people are known here as Turks, but not as  massively as 20 years ago , for example. 
Another mistaken identity has to do with Asian people. The first immigrants were Japanese, so Chinese, Korean and some other nations are all called Japanese. Apart from São Paulo where the first immigrants were settled and are better known, the rest of the country encompasses them all as Japanese.


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## maxiogee

Brioche said:
			
		

> Wouldn't she be _*bean ghorm*_?



Indeed she would. 
My apologies to any *mná ghorma* out there.


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## Otter

maxiogee said:
			
		

> Do they really? Or do they just say "the lady down the block"?
> I don't believe most white people mention whiteness, unless it is to distinguish it from other colours, and in your instance would only say "white lady" if she were the lone (or almost lone) white in a sea of other colours.


 
You are correct in that whites (including myself) don't normally use the word 'white' in the context you describe. However, we're also unlikely to freak out over being called simply 'white'. . . . . or, as Americans, being referred to as . . . uh. . . 'American', even though neither word really defines our ethnic origins. We're also unlikely to demand that the words 'white' and 'American' be "off the books" because they have negative connotations, even though in many circles, these two words have very negative connotations. Strange though it may seem, many white Americans have no knowledge of or interest in their 'roots'. Their families have been here for hundreds of years; they're mutts, so to speak, and they're happy with being part of the melting pot. Good? Bad? I don't know. I have knowledge of my roots. My parents always were interested in asking others, "Who were you're people?" To some, that might be considered 'prying'.

Partially what I was getting at in my first post was that negative connotations can be attached to any word or name. We have a current struggle around censorship in the U.S. and it makes me uncomfortable to hear 'politically correct' young people playing into the hands of this by wanting racial identity words censored or modified.

An offiial in Washington, D.C., some years back, lost his job and unwittingly created a national media frenzy when he, while speaking off the cuff, complained about some government agency's "niggardly" attitude toward dispensing necessary funds*.* 'Niggardly' is derived from the Scandanavian word 'hnoggr' (with an umlau over the 'o') and it means stingy, cheap, miserly. It is neither a racial slur nor a reference to one. It is a word which was used regularly in daily language for many decades in the U.S. but nothing would stop the furor or educate the enraged, insulted, 'politically correct' masses. 

Here in the U.S., negroes became black and now African American (that's seven syllables). White is still the one syllable word, 'white'. What if I make a mistake and the person is African Canadian? Or would that be okay because it's still African North American. And must I define whether or not it's African Central American or African South American (or, oh, maybe that's not okay either, because maybe I need to be able to properly identify, by looking at said person, which Central or South American country. Somehow, African is allright, even though. . . . how may countries were/are there on that continent? You see? That's how it is now with the politically correct people re asian cultures (pardon the unintentional, possible slur). Oriental became obscene and derogatory. Asian is no longer particular enough. 

There are four original races on this planet: red, white, yellow, black. 

Trust me on this (I'll bet big money), verrrry few U.S. immigrant asians care to tell the obvious difference between a pure blooded Navajo and a pure blooded Hopi, let alone between a Cherokee and a Chippewa (those are red people, by the way - Native Americans). Hopefully that eliminates the 'minority' card being played as a response to this.

And white is still just plain 'white'.


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## maxiogee

Otter said:
			
		

> And white is still just plain 'white'.



Pink! I am not white, *I am pink!*


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## Otter

Well, Maxiogee, here in New York, that makes you either a communist or gay. Those are okay with me. I hope you're content with either/both.  I, of course, am a very rare, white otter and absolutely demand to be properly identified as such.


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## la reine victoria

The main point, Pacificblue, is whether or not the bakery owners from Korea take objection to being called the "Chinese, or Asian Bakery".  If their products are good and they are making a profit then I am sure they really don't mind.  If they did mind then I am sure they would put up a sign saying "Korean Bakery".  

Out of interest, what is the name of the shop?



Thank you.



LRV


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## maxiogee

Otter said:
			
		

> Well, Maxiogee, here in New York, that makes you either a communist or gay. Those are okay with me. I hope you're content with either/both



Would you accept "heteroSocialist"?


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## Pivra

Brioche said:
			
		

> In Australia many of the Vietamese and Thai restaurants are operated by Chinese people, often ethnic Chinese who used to live in Vietnam or Thailand. So are they Chinese, or Vietnamese or Thai?
> 
> Among the refugees from Vietnam in the late 70s were ethnic Chinese, and Vietnamese names such as Tran or Trieu may be the Chinese names Chan or Zhao in disguise.
> 
> We also have lots of students from Malaysia, many of whom are also ethnic Chinese. They study here because of the pro-Malay, anti-Chinese and anti-Indian 'affirmative action' policies of the Malaysian government, which exclude them from study at home.


 
I don't think they are Thais nor do they consider themselves Thais (They still hang on to their tradition, refuse our language, refuse our culture). I had Thai food in Quebec once and the restaurant is ru(i)nned by Chinese. Its very bad, tasted like Chinese and what I am afraid is that people may assume that our food taste like that and it will ruin our reputation. The food was definitely too sweet, too oily, and almost tasteless for us. I think it is because of Chinese that makes the Pan-Asia thing so visual to the western world. Lucky I don't look like one, (yes, but some people think I'm a native american. so much better for me)


 Oh and by the way, its Thailand not Taiwan. lol


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## Otter

maxiogee said:
			
		

> Would you accept "heteroSocialist"?


 
Yes, Maxiogee, I would accept you as 'hetroSocialist', calling yourself 'pink' but I cannot speak for the gay or communist communities and their feelings about it.


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## Otter

Pivra said:
			
		

> I don't think they are Thais nor do they consider themselves Thais (They still hang on to their tradition, refuse our language, refuse our culture). I had Thai food in Quebec once and the restaurant is ru(i)nned by Chinese. Its very bad, tasted like Chinese and what I am afraid is that people may assume that our food taste like that and it will ruin our reputation. The food was definitely too sweet, too oily, and almost tasteless for us. I think it is because of Chinese that makes the Pan-Asia thing so visual to the western world. Lucky I don't look like one, (yes, but some people think I'm a native american. so much better for me)
> 
> 
> Oh and by the way, its Thailand not Taiwan. lol


 
The next time someone says you look like a 'Native American', try asking, "Really, which nation?". Native Americans mostly had/have 'nations', not 'tribes'.

Edit: Oops! I see I've got two posts in a row. Sorry. Don't know how to fix it. Will try to pay closer attntion.


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## pacificblue

Seana said:
			
		

> Why do you see called them Asians as a mistaken identity?


 
Hmm, I knew when I was writing this that I couldn't explain what I was thinking very well ...    I was trying very hard to stay away from the topic of stereotypes as I know there are a lot of threads already about it but I really wanted to mention it & so then I got all confused !!!

What I was trying to say really is that as I have recently moved back to New Zealand I have been blown away by the racism that seems to surround me every day ...

When I hear people say the Asian bakery, I think it is full of negative connotations because anytime I hear the word Asian here people always seem to be saying things like "Bloody Asian drivers" or something similiar and so to me now, it's a horrible thing to be saying.  I didn't mean the part of being called Asian was mistaken identity.

I just wondered as a whole how people would react being distinguished as someone from a different race/background just from people assuming because as everyone knows ... to ASSUME is to make an ASS out of U and ME ...


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## Otter

pacificblue said:
			
		

> Hmm, I knew when I was writing this that I couldn't explain what I was thinking very well ...  I was trying very hard to stay away from the topic of stereotypes as I know there are a lot of threads already about it but I really wanted to mention it & so then I got all confused !!!
> 
> What I was trying to say really is that as I have recently moved back to New Zealand I have been blown away by the racism that seems to surround me every day ...
> 
> When I hear people say the Asian bakery, I think it is full of negative connotations because anytime I hear the word Asian here people always seem to be saying things like "Bloody Asian drivers" or something similiar and so to me now, it's a horrible thing to be saying.
> 
> Here in NYC, we say the same thing about "New Jersey drivers".   I used to think it was prejudice but now, every time I see someone driving in a VERY CRAZY manner, I look at the license plate and, too often (I find myself laughing) they are New Jersey license plates.  They just drive very differently from New Yorkers, even though they're just over the river.  Of course I know nothing about the difference between Chinese driving and Korean driving.
> 
> But when I went to Italy, I flew to a major city and rented a car. Everyone here got scared for me and had warned me not to drive in Italy.  But when I got to Italy, I was perfectly comfortable with the driving.  I found Italians to be excellent drivers.
> 
> I don't mean to minimize your feelings about racism.  Racism exists - among all groups but not all individuals.  Perhaps what you perceive is totally true.  But what I've seen be a danger is that when someone (particularly someone who's young, idealistic and sensitive) perceives prejudice they may tend to 'project' that same prejudice on to any reference to the 'word' or the 'group'.
> 
> Simply put, exasperated references to "asian drivers" may have nothing whatever to do with baking.  If people go to the bakery, buy regularly from the bakery, enjoy the products, then references to the "asian bakery" are a positive thing.   What is the name of the bakery, by the way?
> 
> I didn't mean the part of being called Asian was mistaken identity.
> 
> I just wondered as a whole how people would react being distinguished as someone from a different race/background just from people assuming because as everyone knows ... to ASSUME is to make an ASS out of U and ME ...


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## pacificblue

Truthfully I have no idea about the name of the bakery ... will have a look on my way to work tomorrow.    And yes, I think I now realise I am far too sensitive about the issue.


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## danielfranco

Hi, pacificblue!
I don't think you are overreacting... Too much, I mean! You are certainly entitled to your feelings, and if this is an issue that bothers you, you are correct in bringing it up.
For example, here in Texas I've come across many people that are not very well informed about the political shape of the world in the present, so they keep making reference to people based on their looks. Many will still say, "You're Spanish, right?", meaning that they can tell by my looks and accent that I am indeed hispanic. They just don't know how to express it correctly. But sometimes I take exception to it and make a point of telling them (rather pedantically), "No, I'm not Spanish, I'm Mexican."
Of course, the only thing this accomplishes is to have those people look at me blankly for a couple of seconds while they decipher what to them is an almost unintelligible accent, and then retort:
"So? Same difference..."


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## badgrammar

Alright Brioche, then go tell my Taiwanese friends that they're Chinese, and you'll see what they say about that!  Really, I don't think it will go over very weel at all. 

No, actually, to tell the difference, you'd probably have to ask the person, although I think Taiwanese usually make a point of letting people know they are NOT Chinese as early into the conversation as possible.  I'm sure that from a historical/genetical point of view you're right, but I'm not gonna' lump them together, that could cause a big problem!



			
				Brioche said:
			
		

> You can tell Chinese from Taiwanese?
> The Taiwanese are Chinese!
> There are a few Aboriginal Taiwanese left, about 2% of the population.
> Most of the rest are descendants of Fujian Chinese and Hakka Chinese. Around 12% are post WWII immigrants from the mainland.


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## Otter

badgrammar said:
			
		

> Alright Brioche, then go tell my Taiwanese friends that they're Chinese, and you'll see what they say about that! Really, I don't think it will go over very weel at all.
> 
> No, actually, to tell the difference, you'd probably have to ask the person, although I think Taiwanese usually make a point of letting people know they are NOT Chinese as early into the conversation as possible. I'm sure that from a historical/genetical point of view you're right, but I'm not gonna' lump them together, that could cause a big problem!


 
*One of my points, exactly.  They probably are Chinese but the rest of the world should really pay attention and not call them that and we're probably supposed to be able to tell them apart, physically. *


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## Qcumber

Vanda said:
			
		

> In my country Arabian, Syrian, Lebanese and Turks are all called _Turks_.


 
I found the same thing in Gabriel *García Márquez*'s famous novel _A hundred years of loneliness,_ that takes place in Columbia if I am not mistaken. _Los Turcos_ mentioned here and there must have been Christian Lebanese.


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## Pivra

Qcumber said:
			
		

> I found the same thing in Gabriel *García Márquez*'s famous novel _A hundred years of loneliness,_ that takes place in Columbia if I am not mistaken. _Los Turcos_ mentioned here and there must have been Christian Lebanese.


 
 Isnt it 100 years of Solitude in English?


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## timpeac

Pivra said:
			
		

> Isnt it 100 years of Solitude in English?


Yes it is.


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## timpeac

danielfranco said:
			
		

> "No, I'm not Spanish, I'm Mexican."


But isn't it normal for Americans to call people by their decendency in this way? I still remember the most laid back person I ever met, an Irish girl with a delightful drawling brogue, meeting an American girl in France who said to her in very shrill tones "oh my Godddd! You're Irish! So am I!" to which she looked the girl up and down and said in her lovely Irish cadence "no, you're naaaht!".


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## Outsider

We get mistaken for Spaniards all the time. Portuguese names (and Brazilian names) are often pronounced as though they were Spanish, for example, although lately I've noticed that the foreign media are being more careful with that. It's understandable; Spain is a big, famous country, and Portugal is a small, less known country. I can't say that I've ever been personally confused with a Spaniard, though, so my opinion is detached.

When it's the foreign media, or other learned people who ought to know better that confuse us with Spain, it can come off as a bit insulting. But sometimes it's just funny. Once, I overheard a tourist talking to some friends, informing them that "At luch time there would be no one in the streets, since it was _siesta_ time"! LOL! We don't do _siesta_ in this neck of the woods, mister.


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## Brioche

Otter said:
			
		

> *One of my points, exactly. They probably are Chinese but the rest of the world should really pay attention and not call them that and we're probably supposed to be able to tell them apart, physically. *


 

Taiwan still calls itself the Republic of China (ROC).

I think it would be quite impossible for the average person to tell a PRC Chinese from an ROC Chinese.

Can you tell white Australian from white New Zealander from white South African just by looking?


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## timpeac

Brioche said:
			
		

> Can you tell white Australian from white New Zealander from white South African just by looking?


Only by the label behind the ear.


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## Brioche

Or the chip on the shoulder?


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## Otter

Brioche said:
			
		

> Taiwan still calls itself the Republic of China (ROC).
> 
> I think it would be quite impossible for the average person to tell a PRC Chinese from an ROC Chinese.
> 
> Can you tell white Australian from white New Zealander from white South African just by looking?


 
I think maybe you missed my point.  It was a follow up to a previous, rather long post.  perhaps not meant to be read out of context. (or maybe I'm missing your point.)  Anyway, this thread is getting waaay to long for me to keep up with.  I'm dropping out now.  No harm or insults intended.


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## .   1

Brioche said:
			
		

> Can you tell white Australian from white New Zealander from white South African just by looking?


 
I have given up trying to deduce national identities from physical appearance and my suggestion is that this is not a particularly stupid concept.

We are all the same inside and the minor skin charactistics mean nothing.

On one level I an Australian.
On an other level I am Scottish or Irish or Frence or English.
What I am first and foremost is human.

It would be very easy for comments about appearance and how do you tell nation A from nation B to appear to be uncouth at the very least.

.,,
Thank goodness I am a bitza.


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## maxiogee

Brioche said:
			
		

> Can you tell white Australian from white New Zealander from white South African just by looking?



Why would one need, or want, to?


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## Pivra

For me, sorting out SE Asians from E Asians is pretty easy. 
I assume, if you have smaller eyes, lighter skin, straighter hairs, and can't say the R then you are from East Asia.
If they look kind of like me, then they are SE Asians. 

I don't know about Vietnamese though, they seem to be kind of mixed. (I don't know any Vietnamese people either, but I like thier musical instruments + food lol, it's so organic)

I don't know why people here (or the rest of the continent, I don't know) can't tell the differences. But I had this really rude experience from people over here once. I was talking in this fire fast Thai with a girl on a bus in Edmonton, this guy came up to us and asked "Are you from a brown country?", first I thought he couldnt get the articulation right, but when he asked again I was like, "uhhhhhh.....we're Thais", and he was like "Yeah, I thought you guys were Indonesians or something, but anyway, close" . 

lol


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## .   1

Pivra said:
			
		

> I has talking this fire fast Thai with a girl on a bus in Edmonton,


What an utterly gorgeous turn of phrase.
Are these your words?

.,,
Placed right beside conversation by the perfect choice of words.


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## Pivra

. said:
			
		

> What an utterly gorgeous turn of phrase.
> Are these your words?
> 
> .,,
> Placed right beside conversation by the perfect choice of words.


 
 Sorry, I was on the phone when i typed this lol. Didnt pay much attention.


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