# Why Terrorism is Linked to Islam



## borhane

Many people believe that Muslims are terrorist , even when they know that they are the wronged singles and groups today! 
Muslims are oppressed in Palestine by Zionists !!! in India , in Russia , in Serbia , in Nigeria.....................!!!!
Moreover , here in Algeria terrorists were killing thier brothers ! for over a decade they slaughtered women and babies in such a cruel way !!!!
bombing schools , markets and mosques...........!!!!
and after all that , the world is treating us as terrorists !!!!!!!!!
If you think like that please tell me why , if not please let me know


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## *Cowgirl*

I think that it is narrow minded to think that all Muslims are terrorists. It is only certain small groups and individuals that give a bad name to all Muslims. I think we all know that terrorist come from all religions wether it be Christian, Muslim, or whatever.  See this thread for more on faith, religion, terrorism, and whole lot of other stuff.


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## Outsider

I do not make any causal link between terrorism with Islam. I hate that association, which unfortunately is common in the West.  
Other than that, I will just say that many people in the West simply do not realise how much Muslims have been mistreated around the world.


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## Fernando

Borhane, terrorism is not Islamic per se, of course.

Even modern terrorism was invented by anarchists and (partially) communists and pro-corporations death-squads in end 19th century and beginning of 20-th century.

There are terrorist nowadays in Ulster, Pays Basque, US (Oklahoma attack), etc.

The problem is: The only guys who claim to be acting in the name of God are Islamists. And they perform the most horrible attacks nowadays. 

Most of deads in Argelia are Muslims, right, but GIA targeted all Westerners and since then, Argelia is no more a safe place for non-Muslims (things are getting a bit better now). 

Most of deads in Egypt are Muslims, right. But again, Westerners are privileged targets.

And the worst is that most Muslims do not condemn "en masse" the acts of the fundamentalists.

Maybe Muslims are oppressed in Palestine or in India, but I can see mosques in both countries, while I do not see any church in S Arabia and just a few in other countries. Muslims are not killed in France, Spain or US, but Westerners (specially, Jews and Christians, but not only)  are in Argelia, Egypt or Israel.

So, I know that Islamist <> terrorist, but I would like to see some reaction from Muslims when someone kills for the hundreds in the name of their religion.


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## cuchuflete

> the world is treating us as terrorists !!!!!!!!!



The world is full of mostly ignorant people who do not look beneath the headlines.  "The world" makes wrong assumptions about every group of people.  Look at the threads in the Culture forum about people's opinions of the French, Americans, etc.

Those few who get the most attention in the press cause an image of an entire population to be accepted by 'the world'.
It's wrong, it's unfair, and it is, sadly, the way too many people react to far too little information.


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## la reine victoria

Borhane,

Please realise that* all Muslims* are *not* considered to be terrorists.  

That's as illogical as saying that since some men are rapists, *all men* are rapists. 

I can understand Muslims, who see their *extremist Muslim brothers* committing atrocious acts in the name of their religion, feeling concerned that all Muslims will be perceived in this way.  But all right-thinking people *know* that this is not the case. 


La Reine V


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## Ana Raquel

borhane said:
			
		

> Many people believe that Muslims are terrorist , even when they know that they are the wronged singles and groups today!
> Muslims are oppressed in Palestine by Zionists !!! in India , in Russia , in Serbia , in Nigeria.....................!!!!
> Moreover , here in Algeria terrorists were killing thier brothers ! for over a decade they slaughtered women and babies in such a cruel way !!!!
> bombing schools , markets and mosques...........!!!!
> and after all that , the world is treating us as terrorists !!!!!!!!!
> If you think like that please tell me why , if not please lit me know


Hi Boharne, I agree with Le Reine

terrorism is not always linked to Islam and I don't know anyone who thinks all Muslims are terrorists, if they think so, of course they have to be wrong, 

the problem goes worse when the terrorists use the name of the prophet to justify their acts, or chant loudly 'abu akbar' many times before blew themselves and at the same time murdered a police man . I am telling these two things that happened in Madrid.


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## TrentinaNE

Fernando said:
			
		

> The problem is: The only guys who claim to be acting in the name of God are Islamists. And they perform the most horrible attacks nowadays. ...
> 
> And the worst is that most Muslims do not condemn "en masse" the acts of the fundamentalists.
> 
> ... I would like to see some reaction from Muslims when someone kills for the hundreds in the name of their religion.


Couldn't have said it better myself. Thanks, Fernando.

Elizabeth


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## GenJen54

Hi Borhan, 

Here is what I know (which is very little).

Some Muslims are terrorists. These Muslims gain attention through their terrorist activities. These Muslims understand how to use the media to their best advantage.
Because of that, the Media is quick to show “these Muslims” on television.

As Cuchu mentioned, those of us who have a “broader” understanding of the world (or at least aspire to that claim) understand that not all Muslims are terrorists. Multiple acts of terrorism throughout history have taken place by people and peoples who were distinctly not-Muslim.

Over the past several years, however, the major acts of terrorism (USS Cole, 9/11, 07/07, bombings in Spain) were caused by persons who not only claimed to be of the Muslim faith, but used their acts of terrorism as a pulpit from which to teach their “brand” of Islam (which includes martyrdom as a means of entrance into Paradise). In committing these acts and using their religion as a banner under which to commit them, they are furthering the notion that _all_ Muslims are terrorists, even when that is not true. 

One could also argue that many religious leaders are teaching redemption through terrorist acts in Islamic schools.  Of course, as with anything else, this is not the case for ALL schools, but it is what "we" see.


What “the world” *fails* to see, either because the media does not report it, or it simply does not exist, are peaceful Muslims rising up in unison against those who commit terror in the name of their religion. We do not see any protest marches or other types of activities renouncing these terrorist acts. I know some of them take place. I hear speeches of leaders from certain Muslim countries (Jordan, for example) where political leaders denounce these acts. I have seen a few demonstrations here in the US renouncing the acts. But until there is a united front of peaceful Muslims willing to stand up and gain not only the attention of the terrorists themselves, but also the attention of the media, these things will remain grossly underreported. (see Fernando's post on same).


As for Muslims being “wronged,” I don’t know they are the *only* wronged “group” today. But that is discussion for another thread.


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## borhane

Thanks brothers for the clarification and the honesty
dear Fernando I agree with you when you say that the Extremist-Islamists are the only terrorists acting in the name of God , and yes they perform the most horrible attacks to kill many Muslims and Christians ( 100,000 Algerians in 10 years , without counting rapes and stealings ................) But Algeria has always condemn such acts , and its' army has sacrificed its' brave soldiers , but what can it do more if you know that some countries give refuge to terrorists in their territories in order to bring pressure on our countries !!!!! personally , I've cried my heart out when the cursed terrorists had killed pupils in Russia , or in the black 11 September , when the poor men were jumping out of the buildings........
About Saudi Arabia , I've never been there , only a native can gives you a response.........but I think that Algeria contains the most beautiful churchs in all Africa !!


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## Papalote

Hi,

My comments first to Everness. I do not agree with you that *Americans* kill in the name of their God. That *W. Bush* was heard and then quoted by the media (whose agenda in all of this is not only to sell newspapers or TV time, I'm sure) as saying that God drives him is not the same as terrorist extremists hiding behind their prophet and deity. Please do not confuse the two. Please make note that  I do not condone the American invasion of Iraq.

To answer Borhane, I have a deep respect for people who are religious and live according to their beliefs. Many of my friends are deeply religious, Christian, Buddhist and Muslim. I do not believe that your prophet would condone the killing of children, reporters and innocent victims in his name. If my first reaction to 9/11 was to hate Muslims you will have to forgive me. I watched on TV. while it was happening the destruction of so many lives, amongst which a friend of mine. I doubt that his 2 sons understand why their father had to die. He was Canadian. But I didn’t know that he had died until 3 days later, so my indignation and grief then was not for him. It was for innocent people who never knew they were dying because of hatred. 

What I do not seem able to forget is the rejoicing in Palestinian cities that day. I can still see this woman, dressed according to the precepts of her religion, shouting for joy and gesturing at the cameras to focus on a bunch of teenagers waving guns in the air and shouting for joy. While my family and friends in Mexico, France, the Philippines, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Colombia, Argentina, Chile and Brazil wept, and I'm sure you are aware that anti-American sentiment was prevalent in Latin America at the time, the only reaction we saw from Muslim countries was people dancing in the street, smiling and waving guns. Blame it on the media if you must, but you can’t be surprised at the West’s reaction from then on. And then there were other bombings, by terrorists claiming the same Prophet and Deity. As you pointed out, most of us are not very knowledgeable about Islam. We are guilty of that. Muslim terrorists are guilty of showing us a side of Islam that angers us and makes it hard for us to get rid of prejudices and misunderstandings and ignorance.

Also, the terrorism I grew up with, whether in Mexico itself or reading about it happening in Peru, or Bolivia, etc., was not because of religion but ideology (communism, socialism, capitalism) mixed with class struggles. So, Islam is not *always* blamed for terrorism. 

it would help the West if some of the Arab countries condemned publicly all these terrorist acts. Until then, intolerance will prevail.

Regards,

Papalote


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## judkinsc

Here's a thought:

Perhaps the Islamic countries use the West (the USA) as an scape-goat, a release for societal pressures.  It is easy to create one, and without proper information among the citizenry, easy to maintain it.  It allows a government to focus the upset of their citizens into something that harms others, but leaves them relatively unscathed...at least at first.


This could explain the Muslims dancing in the streets, as mentioned in Papalote's post above.

Another note: I am not aware of the specifics of conditions in the countries concerned.


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## SpiceMan

borhane said:
			
		

> Many people believe that Muslims are terrorist , even when they know that they are the wronged singles and groups today!
> Muslims are oppressed in Palestine by Zionists !!! in India , in Russia , in Serbia , in Nigeria.....................!!!!
> Moreover , here in Algeria terrorists were killing thier brothers ! for over a decade they slaughtered women and babies in such a cruel way !!!!
> bombing schools , markets and mosques...........!!!!
> and after all that , the world is treating us as terrorists !!!!!!!!!
> If you think like that please tell me why , if not please let me know


Because of stupid labels.
From a western point of view:
Killing in the name of god by Christians: not terrorism, not murder... Inquisition, Crusade, Reconquista, etc. 
Killing in the name of god by Muslims: terrorism.


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## cubaMania

Borhane, I think most people know that Muslims are not all terrorists. Of course, there are always lunatics among us who have extreme and crazy views, but most people I know assume that the majority of the Muslim population are normal, decent people, just as the majority of Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, etc. are normal, decent people. We also know that there are Irish terrorists, Basque terrorists, USA terrorists, Janjaweed terrorists, and many more.

SpiceMan, nothing can excuse the vicious, bloody, sickening, disgusting, vile, monstrous history of Christianity. The Inquisition, the Crusades and many other vicious acts of Christianity are universally condemned by modern Christians. (As I noted above, there are always some crazy views, but in this matter they are only a tiny number of people.) Christianity needed to make massive changes in order to become decent, and to a very large extent it has done so. In my opinion there are still some big problems to be solved in Christianity, but they no longer rise to the level of the Inquistion or the Crusades. Christians have made progress even though they still have much to do to improve their religious institutions.

So, is it possible that Islam has some work to do to correct problems in their religion that lead to so much violent attitude? It may not be enough for normal, decent Muslims to protest that they are not terrorists. Maybe something has to be changed in the institutions of Islam. How about closing the thousands of Islamic schools that teach small children hatred and lead them every morning in group "hate songs?" How about removing from positions of religious authority some of the many Imams who preach extreme violence? Those are just some ideas; I am not the one to know what Muslims need to do to clean their own house--that is up to Muslims.

There is no shortage of blame to go around the world. There are many people throughout the world who are being oppressed, not just Muslims. We, the normal, decent people of the world, the vast majority, cannot just stand by saying "I didn't do it. I'm not responsible." We actually have to stand up with courage and work to make changes in our religions, our governments, and our institutions wherever they fail to meet our standards of decency toward humanity.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." English philosopher Edmund Burke


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## Rich696

borhane said:
			
		

> and after all that , the world is treating us as terrorists !!!!!!!!!
> If you think like that please tell me why , if not please let me know


I think the reason is pretty simple.

Take some random quotes from the Koran: -

*47:4 - "Now when ye meet in battle those who disbelieve, then in smiting of their necks until, when ye have routed them, then making fast of bonds; and afterward either grace or ransomtill the war lay down its burdens.  That (is the ordinance).  And if Allah willed He could have punished them (without you) but (thus it is ordained) that He may try some of you by means of others.  And those who are slain in the way of Allah, He rendereth not their actions vain."

ALTERNATIVE TRANSLATION: "When you meet the unbelievers in jihad [holy war], chop off their heads. And when you have brought them low, bind your prisoners rigorously. Then set them free or take ransom from them until the war is ended."

9:73 - "O Prophet!  Strive against the disbelievers amd the hypocrites!  Be harsh with them.  Thier ultimae abode is hell, a hapless journey's-end."

ALTERNATIVE TRANSLATION: O Prophet! Make war against the unbelievers [all non-Muslims] and the hypocrites and be merciless against them. Their home is hell, an evil refuge indeed."

8:12 - "When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying) I am with you.  So make those who believe stand firm.  I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve.  Then smite the necks and smite them of each finger.  (13) - That is because they opposed Allah and His messenger.  Whoso opposeth Allah and His messenger, (for him) lo! Allah is severe in punishment."

ALTERNATIVE TRANSLATION: "Remember Allah inspired the angels: I am with you. Give firmness to the believers. I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: you smite them above their necks and smite all their fingertips off of them."

2:216 - "Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing whihc is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you.  Allah knoweth, ye know not."

9:14 - "Fight them (unbelievers)!  Allah will chastise them at your hands, and He will lay them low and give you victory over them..."*

Now, of course, there are similar passages in the Bible and, through history, they too have been used to justify terror - just think of the Inquisitions and the sufferings of so many millions at the hands of  the Popes.
However, now you would not find a Christian who believes in the belligerent statements of the Old Testament - except perhaps (in secure privacy) the Pope and his Cardinals - but even they don't express it publicy.  And you would certainly not find a Christian who couldn't see that such belligerent statements in the Old Testament are anachonristic and have no place in modern society.
However, it is a often-quoted truth that the vast majority of Muslims believe unquestionably every word in the Koran - no exception.  As such, in view of the phrases above, it would be impossible to logically argue that any person who claims to believe every word in the Koran does not support the war against the infidel which they encouraged to partake and that we now label terrorism.

In the same way, can any Muslim who believes every word in the Koran possibly have any sympathy with multiculturalism?: -*5:51 - Oh ye who believe!  Take not the Jews and Christians for friends.  They are friends one to another.  He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them.  Lo!  Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.

*I disagree with your statement that most westerners associate terrorism with Islam.  Many don't and I believe that is very dangerous.  I think that we often like to pull the covers over our heads and  blind ourselves to these dangers until it is too late to do anything about them.  We did it in the 1930s decieving ourselves, saying that Hitler was not a real danger and a menace.  Anybody who said otherwise was chastised and branded an extremist or a warmonger - in the same way that those who stand up now and say these things about Islam are branded bigoted and extreme.

I don't believe that Islam has to be a terrorist religion for ever.  I think if Muslims come to accept a non-literal interpretation of the Koran then multiculturalism is possible and terrorism will then be able to be justly labelled the preserve of extremists.  However, of all my Muslim friends and acquaintances, I have yet to meet one who does not hold a literal interpretation fo the Koran.  I believe that such an interpretation fosters terrorism and is of the gravest danger to all non-Muslim states which, by our very nature, stand in direct opposition to Islam and as a primary target for religiously-motivated attacks.


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## cuchuflete

Gentlemen: Your discussion does not address the topic of this thread. Feel free to open a new thread if you wish to discuss the crimes of sundry religions.

Moderator


After a brief cooling-off period, this thread is re-opened to any and all who have the courtesy to re-read Borhane's post #1, and reply to it.  Off topic posts will be deleted.


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## borhane

I 'am not sure whether your interpretations of the verses are right or not 
all but one thing , yes all non-Muslims are unbelievers !!! but who are Muslims ? the prophet Ibrahim ( Braham I guess !! ) is the first to call his followers like that , and they were Jews !!!! and the real followers of the Messiah are Muslims !!!!
Mahomed is the last messenger ( khatam al-anbiya ) he came to continue the Message of his predecessors , not only to his kinsfolk but for every single human being.........
Muhammed said to his followers that anyone who harm or hurt *AHL al-DHIMMA *( Christians and Jews ) will be his litigant in the Judgement-day ....!!!!
I would really to add many other things but...................!!!


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## Ana Raquel

Boharne, could you say Mulsim in English so that I understand better your post? I mean, the meaning of the word.


			
				borhane said:
			
		

> I 'am not sure whether your interpretations of the verses are right or not
> all but one thing , yes all non-Muslims are unbelievers !!! but who are Muslims ? the prophet Ibrahim ( Braham I guess !! ) is the first to call his followers like that , and they were Jews !!!! and the real followers of the Messiah are Muslims !!!!
> Mahomed is the last messenger ( khatam al-anbiya ) he came to continue the Message of his predecessors , not only to his kinsfolk but for every single human being.........
> Muhammed said to his followers that anyone who harm or hurt *AHL al-DHIMMA *( Christians and Jews ) will be his litigant in the Judgement-day ....!!!!
> I would really to add many other things but...................!!!


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## WillyLandron

Ana Raquel said:
			
		

> Boharne, could you say Mulsim in English so that I understand better your post? I mean, the meaning of the word.



I don't know if this is what you are refering to but *AHL al-DHIMMA *are people of the book, people of the convenant of protection, in Islam. It includes Christians and Jews.

The term *Ahl al-Kitab* is also used.


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## Ana Raquel

Thanks for that translation, I didn't know either the meaning of that, but, actually I was asking for the meaning of the word 'muslim', an equivalent or a synonym.



			
				WillyLandron said:
			
		

> I don't know if this is what you are refering to but *AHL al-DHIMMA *are people of the book, people of the convenant of protection, in Islam. It includes Christians and Jews.
> 
> The term *Ahl al-Kitab* is also used.


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## cubaMania

borhane said:
			
		

> ...Muhammed said to his followers that anyone who harm or hurt *AHL al-DHIMMA *( Christians and Jews ) will be his litigant in the Judgement-day ....


If that is accurate there is a big problem:  billions of people are neither Muslims, Jews, nor Christians.  If that is accurate, and those who are not Muslims, Jews, or Christians are considered to be fodder for murder or other harm--that is something else Muslims need to change in their religion.  I do not know in detail about the tenets of Islam; I'm just going by what you said in your post.  Whatever it is that is causing so much violence in the name of Islam, it is Muslims who need to fix that problem.

Of course, borhane, YOU are not a terrorist murderer.  And MOST Muslims are not terrorist murderers.  But if the majority of Muslims close their eyes in the face of the obvious large problem of violence justified by Islam--what chance is there that the problem will be solved?  I cannot solve the problems of Islam; only Muslims can do that.


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## WillyLandron

cubaMania said:
			
		

> If that is accurate ...that is something else Muslims need to change in their religion.



I'm afraid that's not posssible. Islam is subject to interpretations but in Islam that last prophet is that last one we get and the last word has already be written. 



			
				cubaMania said:
			
		

> I do not know in detail about the tenets of Islam



That's part of the problem. People from the Muslim world know a great deal more about us than we know about them. Maybe we should try and found out just was Islam is before we discuss why it's so often viewed the way it is.


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## cubaMania

WillyLandron said:
			
		

> I'm afraid that's not posssible. Islam is subject to interpretations but in Islam that last prophet is that last one we get and the last word has already be written.


The Christian bible also has much in it that has been used to justify criminal violence in the past, but over the centuries Christians have modified the stance of the church to eliminate the worst of the evils of violence justified by Christianity.


			
				WillyLandron said:
			
		

> That's part of the problem. People from the Muslim world know a great deal more about us than we know about them. Maybe we should try and found out just was Islam is before we discuss why it's so often viewed the way it is.


I disagree.  I don't think that people from the Muslim world know a great deal about us.  I also don't think it is up to me to understand the tenets of every religion in the world.  I know that murder is wrong, period, and I don't have to understand the tenets of Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, or any other religion to know that.  Let the people of each religion heal their own institutions.


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## cuchuflete

cubaMania said:
			
		

> I don't think that people from the Muslim world know a great deal about us.



I have no reason to disagree with CubaMania's statement. 

It's a rather sweeping assertion to say that people who practice Islam, or are from "the Muslim world" are informed about other cultures, religions, nations.  Some substantiation of that claim might be useful.

  I am also scratching my head, wondering who "us" is.

Earlier posts in this thread highlighted mutual ignorance as part of the problem.


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## borhane

brothers , you know that killing unbelievers , slaving them , or the holly war was the characteristic of the mediaeval age !!! it doesn't exist any more !!!
every single muslim state has its' own relationships !!! and like all other countries they signed "the human rights conventions !!! 
personally , I believe in the Universal Civilisation ! so I cannot hurt or harm one of my civilitation !!!
that sect who kill without distinguish is called " *AL-KHAWARIDJ "* that means the rebellions and who are doing that because of a false interpretation of the Coran !!! and they are killing Muslims before Christians !!! you cannot argue with them , but if you do , do it with a revolver in your hand !!! I'm not joking when I say that many of my family , without speaking about my friends ........ and you are telling me to convinse them !!! Algeria has voted on an amnesty programe to stop this , to stop clashs end bombings , fortunatly all is alright , and every terrorist will be punished as his doings !!!


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## borhane

Ana Raquel said:
			
		

> Boharne, could you say Mulsim in English so that I understand better your post? I mean, the meaning of the word.


thanks for the question dear Raquel 
*Aslama* ( is the verb of muslim ) means : to resign oneself ot ( the will of ) God ; commit oneself to God ; recommend one's soul to God ; submit to God .
 I hope that it will help you


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## maxiogee

One must realise that society needs identifiable 'enemies'.
At the height of the Cold War ordinary American's saw 'all' Russians as the enemy, and the Russians had similar views of the Americans.
At the height of the IRA activity in Britain to be Irish was to be suspect.
There are countless other examples from history.

Why it happens is complex.
If you can have a loose description of your potential enemy then it is easy to sweep up all those who fit the bill and try to winnow the few from them.
To be flippant about it for a moment, if I believe that red-headed people are out to do me some harm then if I decide to avoid all red-headed people I stand a good chance of not being harmed.

Add to that the apparent 'hot-temper' we in the West see displayed in Muslem countries - it was originally one Danish newspaper which published the offensive cartoons (and yes, they 'were' offensive) and yet many Muslems threaten the who European Union! This is over-reaction on a massive scale. This is not an isolated incident - we see frequent displays of such over-reaction amongst Muslems when they see their faith being denigrated.

*What does it say of a person's faith if some foreigner can shake it so with a few words or images?*
I may have the opinion that Mr. XYZ was the best leader my country ever had - and that will not be shaken by someone lying and saying that he 
beat his wife, stole from his grandmother or was in some other way less than perfect.

Muslems have been seen as terrorists for many reasons. Some of them valid and some not. The attacks on Israel were all from Muslem countries, and no Muslem leaders ever seem to condemn them.
There is a perception that Islam allows and encourages the killing of 'infidels' - this is not a concept which will win any religion any friends!
There is a major perception that Islam fundamentally opposes much of what the rest of the world sees as normal - the liberation of women, the separation of Church and state (laws should not reflect religious morality), democracy.
We look at Islam and we see "intolerance" writ large.

*This, however, does not justify seeing all Muslems as terrorists.*
But that's how life is - we need enemies to make us feel superior and secure.


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## cubaMania

borhane said:
			
		

> ...that sect who kill without distinguish is called " *AL-KHAWARIDJ "* that means the rebellions and who are doing that because of a false interpretation of the Coran !!! and they are killing Muslims before Christians !!! you cannot argue with them , but if you do , do it with a revolver in your hand !!! I'm not joking when I say that many of my family , without speaking about my friends ........ and you are telling me to convinse them !!! ...


borhane, you have my sympathy.  It will not be easy for Islam to clean its house.  The reason that we in the Western judaeo-christian societies do not face those same dangers that you face is that our ancestors already fought that fight against violent, vicious, extremist Christianity, and won it.  Muslims have a difficult road ahead of them if they are to rid themselves of the jihadists, the hate-spreading madrassas, the violence-preaching Imams, etc.  But you asked the question "why is terrorism linked to Islam" and that is the answer--that fight must be fought, or else Islam will continue to be a major source of violence and intolerance in the world.

And even once the battle is won, it is never completely over.  "The price of liberty is eternal vigilance."  Here in the West, many of us think that we are moving backwards, back toward the bad old days of violent, intolerant Christianity.  That is why I work hard trying to rid my government in Washington, D.C. of the George W. Bush administration.  They are religious extremists who are trying to move us back toward violence and intolerance, and I oppose them with every fiber of my being.


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## feuerbach

Why terrorism is always linked to Islam? 

Borhane, this is the type of questions we should avoid or rephrase. 

(1) It's too general and ambiguous. Who is doing this linking? You, me, mankind, Western countries, the United States, the press, Fox News, etc.? Even if we limit the scope of potential culprits to specific countries, it continues to be a generalization of no value. It just creates more animosity among people. I, personally, read it as a veiled attack to non-Islamic individuals. My first reaction is to become defensive. But that's me. 

(2) You also have to be more careful with the use of the adverb "always." Can you prove that those people or entities who are doing this linking "always" link terrorism to Islam? Could it be that they only link the 9/11 terrorists with Islam because they allegedly performed this attack in the name of Islam? Again, I think that this is your impression (that people link terrorism to Islam) and you have the right to hold this belief. Actually I speculate, based on what the newspapers say (one of the most unreliable sources of information), that most Muslims think that Westerns associate terrorism with Islam. But again, I don't find this type of blanket statements useful or helpful. It's a distortion of a relative truth (there are no absolute truths). 

I'm sure that I will be told that I'm off topic, but I think we should be discussing questions that are framed more or less responsibly. Otherwise, we'll be debating generalizations with counter-generalizations and our discussion will degenerate into bigoted emotional exchanges.


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## Rich696

borhane said:
			
		

> brothers , you know that killing unbelievers , slaving them , or the holly war was the characteristic of the mediaeval age !!! it doesn't exist any more !!!
> every single muslim state has its' own relationships !!! and like all other countries they signed "the human rights conventions !!!
> !



But is it really a thing of the past?  Are you sure that although such events are consigned to history, the interpretation of Scripture which justified and motivated them does not still forment in many Muslim minds?  Has the Islamic religion being brought into the twenty-first century yet?  After all, in places like Nigeria women can still be stoned to death for adultery.  This is undoubtedly anachronistic, but the justification is lifted straight from the Koran.

Borhane, may I ask a question: do most Muslims that you know have a literal interpretation of the Koran?  Do they, in private, believe every word and message without question?

I have read the Koran many times and read four or five different translations.  The first excerpts that I posted were from probably the least extreme version - the one that I own.  I know that in all the versions those verses, which struck me first time I read it, are all pretty much the same and the message is pretty set-in-stone.

Another thing: I don't think it is possible to argue that Jews and Christians can be included as those that Islam is not fundamentally opposed to.  Take the verse I quoted earlier: -
*5:51 - Oh ye who believe! Take not the Jews and Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
*You make the point that Muhammad said that all who harm Jews and Christians will suffer, which I was not aware of.  However, Muslims are not Mohammedans - indeed, they take great offence when they are labelled as such.  The word of Allah is what the Muslim believes in and, in the Koran, this is incontrovertibly anti-Christian/Jewish/heretic, despite the fact that it was laid down by Mohammed.

As a sidenote: I think it is wonderful that we can have this open and civilised discussion without religious tempers and prejudicies flaring.  It worries me to think that within a few months, if the religous discrimination laws pass the British Parliament, many of the opinions expressed so far in this thread will be illegal and could result in imprisonment.  Tony Blair is slowly silencing freedom far more effectively than Hitler or Stalin ever did!


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## Devoted-Deserter

Salam, Hi et Bonjour
(These are the three languages I speak)

I really liked the honest answer given by our friend in the thread why terrorism is always linked to Islam, because in my opinion communication is the only way to solve these misunderstandings. I would like to share with you all my experience and explain to you how, from a Muslim point of view, the previous passages are seen. First of all, there is one thing I’m set to explain to you before going on. Do not take this argument too personal because it is not. Believers do not have to be harsh with others, since according to their beliefs, they will be rewarded by the Lord, whereas disbelievers also, have to do so since they do not believe in the hereafter.
Before arguing, I would like to tell you about a story that happened to me. Not to long ago, I was asking my self about how to find out the truth, as all or almost all humans did, I have been thinking about how god could exist, and if he do, then how to know him? I was thinking that faith goes simply in the opposite of science and I was wrong. A half century ago, many people “materialists” were still thinking that the universe was infinite and constant. The current progress of science comes to show us that the universe was the result of an explosion and will one day end by an implosion. It is actually constantly moving. It became easy then to realize the fact that a mass of matter cannot explode without an agent. Many other facts raised my faith from weak to strong. But who is god? As you already mentioned above, there exist many similarities in the holy Bible and Koran. That that helped me to find out that he is Allah, the god of Muslims, Christians and Jews, just like it is said in Koran. In a verse of Koran of which I do not remember the references, but will bring references if you want to, Allah told the prophet Mohammed PBUH to tell the Jews and the Christians that we all worship one god, the only reason why he sent Mohammed PBUH after Jesus is that, as you said, the holy Bible has been modified by men. 

Now I would like to explain some misunderstanding related to the verses you mentioned. 

1- 47:4- Djihad is not a holy war, and I’m set on to explain the two types of Djihad that come in Koran. The first type is against invasion and you all agree that it is both a right and a duty to do so. The second one is against people who strive against Muslims and deprive them of their freedom of belief and forbid them to communicate with the disbelievers. Whereas “smiting necks” is an old Arabic expression used in the past, it does not mean anything but an execution. I’m also set on mentioning that murder is considered as the third greatest sin. 

9:73- Frankly, I do not read Koran in English, since I know Arabic, and through all my readings I do not remember any passage where we are told to strive or make war against all non-Muslims. The passage you are mentioning is about a special event. The prophet was told to strive against some Jews that were living with Muslims, but tried double-cross him when he was in war. A very critical moment to Muslims and this passage is a good witness of the coexistence of Jews and Muslims in the same town “El Madina”. The Hypocrites here designs only the traitors. This is why no one should interpret a verse out of its special, temporal and even contextual context. When the Muslims won the war, the prophet PBUH left them free but set them one condition, to leave the town (the traitors). Do you believe that anyone, any military officer would do so despite his religion?

8:12- in this verseI will not re-explain smite neck again but let us have a look at “*Remember Allah inspired the angels: I am with you. Give firmness to the believers.*” If you do believe in Allah than it is easier to believe that he is all powerful, since he created the universe he is able to do more then we can know or even imagine. He is beyond our spatial temporal square, and here think about Einstein’s theory E=MC², just ask physicians how we can bypass time. Our knowledge is too weak to judge this impossible. 

2:216 – Warfare is painful, but sometimes it is necessary, aren’t you the people who fight in Iraq and in Afghanistan to set democracy. Is it good? Though it is a necessary devil. Don’t you think so?

9:14 – As I already said, we have to keep each verse in its context, or we will lose the original meaning.

5:51- As far as I’m aware, this verse do not talk about friendship but rather about empowerment and models. It is said to not take them for model and to not follow them. Take a look at our contemporary society, almost all Muslims follow the western cloths fashions, music…etc and we are not worth better then what the west is. Muslims are supposed to be a model of compassion; commitment and help. In my point of view we are far of this model. I would like here to mention another verse in which Allah told the prophet that the closest people to Muslims are the Christians, a verse that no one ever mention in this kind of discussions.

Terrorism is the expression of fear, stress and desperation. Some western governments take advantages of people misunderstandings on Islam in a way that serves their goals. Whereas, other terrorists leaders try to take advantage of western attitude by calling non-mature Muslims to strive against the west, which is according to them the root of all their problems. Suffering inequality and injustice and governed by corrupted systems, some Muslims are easy to convince. Further more, they take religions as a personal affaire, thinking their selves beyond the other, and in a certain way, they believe they are responsible of all of us. 

Allah knows his prophet, and we Muslims do too. We can break up our relations with Denmark but why shall we bomb them? This is unjustified terrorism action, especially when we know that in Islam, in many verses and many Hadiths we are told to not even kill people that in war try to run away. After all, we are told just to tell about Allah and Islam and not to force anyone to convert himself into Islam?
If anyone wants to know more about Islam, anything related to Islam, please do not take isolated verses and try to interpret them, better ask for the circumstances and explanations.

Finally, I would like to thank you for all your concerns. I will love to answer all your questions as soon as possible. I’m bent on thanking you for the way you raised the topic, thank you.
Salam.


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## cubaMania

Welcome to the forums Devoted-Deserter.


			
				Devoted-Deserter said:
			
		

> ... 5:51- As far as I’m aware, this verse do not talk about friendship but rather about empowerment and models. It is said to not take them for model and to not follow them. ...


It is interesting to see interpretation by a Muslim of some of the verses of the Koran mentioned above.


			
				Devoted-Deserter said:
			
		

> ... and this passage is a good witness of the coexistence of Jews and Muslims in the same town “El Madina”. ...


I do not know about the tenets of Islam, but I am aware that Islam had an illustrious history of great religious tolerance and peacefulness at one time. But now Islam is putting forth so much intolerance and violence into the world. What happened? and more importantly, what can Muslems do to solve this problem?


			
				Devoted-Deserter said:
			
		

> ... 2:216 – Warfare is painful, but sometimes it is necessary, aren’t you the people who fight in Iraq and in Afghanistan to set democracy. Is it good? Though it is a necessary devil. Don’t you think so? ...


Oh, no, I do not think the war in Iraq is good. Most of the Western world opposed the invasion of Iraq, and even more oppose it now that we have learned that the reasons given for the invasion were false.
The principle may be true that sometimes war is necessary, but in this case it was not necessary and is not good. I am shamed that my country is largely responsible for it (well Brits and some others share some blame) and I try to change the direction of my country to a more moral course.


			
				Devoted-Deserter said:
			
		

> ... Terrorism is the expression of fear, stress and desperation. Some western governments take advantages of people misunderstandings on Islam in a way that serves their goals. Whereas, other terrorists leaders try to take advantage of western attitude by calling non-mature Muslims to strive against the west, which is according to them the root of all their problems. Suffering inequality and injustice and governed by corrupted systems, some Muslims are easy to convince. Further more, they take religions as a personal affaire, thinking their selves beyond the other, ...


I thnk this is very very true.


			
				Devoted-Deserter said:
			
		

> ... We can break up our relations with Denmark but why shall we bomb them? This is unjustified terrorism action ...


Yes, if the Muslim world had mass non-violent demonstrations against the newspaper that published these, that would be impressive. But instead the Muslim world has mass violent demonstrations and murders. And they are against all kinds of targets that have nothing to do with the obscure newspaper. This just strengthens the views of Islam as expressed in the cartoons. 


			
				Devoted-Deserter said:
			
		

> ... Allah told the prophet Mohammed PBUH to tell the Jews and the Christians that we all worship one god ...


There are billions of people on earth who are not Muslims, Jews or Christians. I am interested to know does the Koran dictate respect for their rights?

It is clear that hate-teaching madrassas, extremist violence-preaching Imams, and corrupt governments are all using Islam to justify their crimes of violence. If this is not the true nature of Islam what is to be done by Muslims to stop them?

You speak excellent English.


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## annettehola

I believe this to be a great part of the problem, maybe the problem as such: That state- or world-religions are so closely related to politics, that it is indeed very difficult to see wherein the difference lies at times.

When a world-religion is big, then it is also big on money. When it's big on money then it's being supported by someone who sponsors it. No new thing. 

Then it's not religion anymore. Then it's poligion, I would say, and spirituality goes by the wayside. I do not think knowledge of other religions in itself could cure that. And it's silly, Willy, to say that "the muslims" know more about "us" than "we" about "them." There is ignorance on both sides, and CubaMania is absolutely right in my opinion that an indeed very great part of "Western" ignorance lies with the Government of George. 
Terrorism in itself should be defined, and it is time this was done. Here is my attempt: Terrorism is not the same as terror. CCN, that intolerable channel, had - following the TwinTower-story - long reportages under the title of "War on Terror." Another mistake. As I see it, "terrorism" is organised terror, whereas terror is anything malicious that is purportedly directed towards some people in order to harm them. This is important in this context. Reason? Because I believe that terror has created terrorism in the world. And only very, very narrow-minded or orthodox religious fundamentalists would be able to see one side of the story only: The people who perform terrorism. The terror of those that led to this reaction they do not see. And then religion is said to be the cause? In itself it is not, I think. People who believe are not in themselves terrorists, obviously not. But sometimes extremely narrow-minded and intolerant. On both sides, I repeat. Some to such an extent that they hide their religious belief behind politics, and vice versa.

Annette


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## Rich696

Devoted-Deserter, I found your post very illuminating and I take on board all of your points.
However, I think that your point about my taking some of the verses out of context is misleading.  After all, the Koran is not a history, it is a a book of sacred writings intended to provide strict guidelines as to how Muslims should conduct their lives.  As such, if most Muslims hold a literal interpretation of Koran, then surely it follows that they too are unable to interpret these verses in context and must rather view them as being as relevant today as they were 1,500 years ago?  Do most Muslims apply the powers of deduction and reasoning when reading the Koran, or do they rather take the words and pretty explicit moral as their only meaning?

We are the people who fight in Iraq, purportedly to bring democracy.  But in reality, the war is conducted to secure our supplies of oil, and despite some blazing indiscretions on the part of G. W. Bush, there is no religious underpinning to our reasons for going to war.  It might be argued that the last wars or revolutions to be justified by war in England happened so long ago as the seventeenth century, when literal interpretations of the Bible were as conducive to evil as literal interpretations of the Koran are in our generation.  Of course, one can easily argue that it is morally wrong to go to war for oil or riches.  But, unfortunately, that's just the way of the world.  It has happened since time immemorial and is not likely to stop any time soon.

I believe that Muslims and non-Muslims can live in peace together.  But, unfortunately, I don't think this can happen until Muslims adopt a non-literal interpretation of the Koran.  Despite the nuances of contextual setting, I am sure that 99% of Muslims would interpret the following phrase as meaning that they should have no personal relations with the infidel: *Oh ye who believe! Take not the Jews and Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.*

Devoted-Deserter, may I pose the question to you on which I believe this issue hinges: - _Do most Muslims that you know adopt a literal and unquestioning interpretation of the Koran?
_I know that Muslims that I have known, both educated and uneducated, readily admitted that they adopted a literal interpretation and that, as such, they felt that the 9/11 and 7/7 attacks were fully justified.

If they were Muslims living in any other part of the globe, I would accept their right to that opinion.  However, I believe that when Muslims within our own borders are adopting views that are subversive to the state and to our forms of government then we must take some sort of action, be it educational or restrictive, to ensure the security of the state.

A final note: The problem has now become one of chronic lack of trust.  At the time of the 7/7 bombing, most British-Muslim groups denounced the attacks.  The cynic would say: what choice did they have?  Not to do so would have been to dig the grave of Islam in England and perhaps the Western world.  The British reaction would have seen them run from the country and their faith thoroughly discredited.  However, in the last few days it has emerged that Hamid Ali, a Muslim divine who condemned the 7/7 attacks publicly, has been taped by an undercover agent saying that they were "good" and useful for Islam.
What people are now thinking is that perhaps all those "liberal-Muslim" leaders and groups who condemned the attacks really think the same.  If they adopt a literal and unquestionning interpretation of the Koran, I can't see how they can do otherwise.  I don't believe they are able to extridite the verses from contexts as you are obviously able to do so.

Thank-you once again for your response and the detatched tone in which it was written.  I do have many more questions about Islam which, if I may, I would like to ask you in the near future.  And I agree entirely that we must try to understand one another.  I also believe that before we begin to take measures to guarantee the security of the state, which I fear have become inevitable given the modern climate, I think soceity needs an open discussion, the like of which we are having here, so that we may reach the most enlightened decision.

Rich.


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## feuerbach

Rich696 said:
			
		

> I believe that Muslims and non-Muslims can live in peace together. But, unfortunately, I don't think this can happen until Muslims adopt a non-literal interpretation of the Koran. Despite the nuances of contextual setting, I am sure that 99% of Muslims would interpret the following phrase as meaning that they should have no personal relations with the infidel: *Oh ye who believe! Take not the Jews and Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.*


 
Rich, have you read the Imprecatory Psalms lately (#s 7, 35, 55, 58, 59, 69, 79, 109, 137 and 139)? You'll find them in "our" Bible. They pose some ethical problems to say the least. Some Christians are even asking themselves: May we pray these psalms? 

Deep down I think that some people in the West pray these psalms daily to justify and intensify their hatred toward the non-Jewish and non-Christian world. Apparently all sacred books have their flaws, and bigots take advantage of this to pursue their bigoted agenda. Let's not play their game.


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## annettehola

Right. I agree. But with both of you. Rich did nothing more, in fact, than turning the theme upside-down. He seems to ask not only why terrorism is linked to Islam, but also why Islam is linked to terrorism. It is not the same question. And it's good to discuss both.

I would like to sit on it till tomorrow.

There are so very many things involved.

To be continued.

Annette


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## Devoted-Deserter

Salam, Hi et Bonsoir,
First of all, allow me to express my deep enjoyment. I will try to enumerate your questions in order to make clear and ordained answers.

_CubaMania asked:”There are billions of people on earth who are not Muslims, Jews or Christians. I am interested to know does the Koran dictate respect for their rights?”_

The only differences in Islam between Muslims and non-Muslims are that, whereas Muslims have to pay Zakat (alms giving), non-Muslims have to pay a tax for the STATE or the so-called system that assures their security. Zakat is calculated upon benefits and goods and can be very high , where the tax has a fixed value. Beside that point, the Muslims are asked to do military services but not non-Muslims in case of invasion. Of course, this is in case the power is in Muslims hand. Islam came to free people of slavery, racism and discrimination. We are told in Koran that all humans are equal, no one is better then one, but in faith. We all have the same rights. A good exemple is the verses telling for whom Zakat should be giving; in a total of eight categories, the non-Muslims people under muslims authority came in the fourth place. This aims at making the society an unbreakable union.
Before going on I would like to thank you for your nice little comment.

 
Dear Rich696, you asked: _“__Do most Muslims apply the powers of deduction and reasoning when reading the Koran, or do they rather take the words and pretty explicit moral as their only meaning?”_
In Islam the deduction is made from three sources; Koran, Sunna (Prophet’s experience) and finally Hadith(Prophet’s sayings). This is why before giving any explanation, we have to gather informations about the events under which the verses where transmitted. This applies to scholars from whom Muslims take knowledge and explanations. 
- _Do most Muslims that you know adopt a literal and unquestioning interpretation of the Koran?_
We are supposed to adopt scholars’ interpretation; this is how we should acquire knowledge. Otherwise, we will have many testaments just like what happened with the Bible. You all agree with me that if we were to translate the Plague (Albert Camus) we will, each upon his knowledge and preferences, make many different translations. Imagine what could happen with Koran?

In my opinion the ones who think September 11 events are justified are either ignorant about the Prophet, or they have given their personal judgement. What happened was genocide, and Islam means Peace!

I personally live in Algeria this is what I’m thinking.
May be I do not have the right to say this but I think I have to say it; the current opinion are just taken upon personal feelings. The west does not like us, and I can understand why. A significant part of Muslims and non-Muslims confuse Koran with terrorism. Muslims think they are right because they know Allah, non-Muslims do think so because they think they are reasonable. This causes a little confusion, provided we are living in world were globalization is a law, every one fears the other. The populations feel like they were enemies. 
Religion is intended to make of the savage people we were through centuries, humans. 
A good example that can be given here is the spreading of Islam in Central Africa and Asia without the use of any military actions.
The following verse: *“**Oh ye who believe! Take not the Jews and Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk. » *I said it was talking about models and empowerment because I know the verse in Arabic. The world translated by FRIENDS has no true equivalent in English. It is the same word “wali’ye” that is used to design the person that is responsible of a kid. Hence, I think the use of the word “friend” was wrong (Koran is very hard to translate). In my opinions LEADER suits best in this verse.

 
Dear Fueurbach,
I do not believe that the Books have flaws. Maybe we lack knowledge. The problem is more likely to relay on circumstances. We shall analyse the world as it is today if we have the less opportunity to understand it, and save what is likely to be saved. 
There are two significant parties in our contemporary world; the developed countries and the rest. Under current politics, systems and economic strategies, both parties are dependent. The western civilisation is likely to end in case the eastern countries, especially those providing natural resources and man power, were a little bit more developed. The eastern populations are living under dependency, and almost all those systems are corrupted. Even if western people do not all agree with these politics they empowered, the eastern people, consequently, do believe the west is the root or all their major problems. Terrorism is just a consequence. I do not say it is the westerns fault here. But we shall all keep in mind that, that under such conditions it is a logical consequence, regardless to religion. Religion is just a refuge for both sides.
Nonetheless, we can still use those systems (International Organizations, Media...etc) in a way that serves peace and coexistence. Poligion is the perfect word.

Dear Annette, next time I will do my best and try to give a definition to terrorism.
Thank all for your time, I’m waiting for your posts,
Take care


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## borhane

cubaMania said:
			
		

> borhane, you have my sympathy.  *Thank you dear cubaMania*
> ." Here in the West, many of us think that we are moving backwards, back toward the bad old days of violent, intolerant Christianity. That is why I work hard trying to rid my government in Washington, D.C. of the George W. Bush administration. They are religious extremists who are trying to move us back toward violence and intolerance, and I oppose them with every fiber of my being.


I believe that the violance coming from the West is the result of power !! of supreme power !! and of the fear that someone gets some power and be able to do what ever he want !!
And the violance coming from the third world is the result of oppression , the feeling of weakness ..............how can be my reaction when I see the last video , when British soldiers strike youth Irakians in "Bassora" ...!!! it's not easy to see injustice and to not be able to change the situation , you know !! What do you think of an Irakian or a palestinian who has lost members of his family , and knows that US , England or Israel is the cause of their death !!
what you are saying dear cubaMnia is very moving and beautiful , so it's up to us to change the destiny of the world , our destiny , we must fight against tyrants and terrorists , and I think if hand in hand we can won this war
Faithfully
Borhane


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## annettehola

Dear all,

I sat on the difference all night, and this is what I have in my head and heart: 

*Why terrorism is linked to Islam >< Why Islam is linked to terrorism*

ad 1) I believe terror created terrorism. In an earlier post I stated where I believe this terror to come from.

ad 2) All religious doctrines are of an essentially fictitious character. And so, they must be subject to *interpretation *in order to be 'understood.' The fictitious aspect is a thing of great, great beauty in my opinion. But the problem of interpretation is that some people link their interpretations to the narrow-minded concept of "Literal truth." When it's in The Book, then it's obviously true, if not, do you really think it would have been in the book then???" It is for this reason that I don't think it makes sense to argumentate with any holy writ in your hand, going:"but haven't you read this and that passage? there it's clearly stated that...."
Jesus is also supposed to have said:"I am Truth. My way is _*the*_ way." And here, I think, is where the beauty of fiction lies: You can enjoy the words but you cannot take them away from their context. Their context is fiction. You can read about how Jesus starved in the desert for 40 days and nights and how Job lost all and gained himself and how Isaac was sacrificed to the Law of the Heavens...the last story is interesting in this context: The old testament speaks of Laws rather than of Love. It speaks of Love also, but the Law always comes out stronger there than does the concept of Love that, actually, first becomes really important as a principle in lived life with the introduction of the new testament. The old, angry god of the old testament punished more than he spread the gospel of Love it seems to me.
Back to the fictitious aspect and to those that can only read with their eyes and nothing else: What happened to Salman Rushdie, f.ex, is an example of this. Totalitarian regimes all over the world, be they religious or political or poligionous, always do what they can to silence people of another opinion. It is in my view obvious that fundamentalists are responsible for the split-up distinction known as either: "East-West" (""South-North"? Inexistent poles, are they?) and "we" and "they" exist in the world - or that so much emphasis is put on this. They seem to overlook the fact that the globe is actually round in shape. Georgie-boy, f.ex, needs to learn a little geometry here. For unfortunately he is square in the head.

Last Sunday I watched a wonderful fillum from Argentina. A guy nicknamed "Washington" comes up to the table where the two protagonists are sitting waiting for someone to buy them a coffee as they're totally penniless. "Look, my friend Marcos, what I have for you.." Washington produces his suitcase that contains all and nothing: Insurances, watches, software programs and what not. "I have whatever you might wish for. Have a look, and tell me what you want."
The answer is:"Quiero que te vayas, Washington." (I wish you would leave, W.)
As I said, it's a good film.
Annette


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## Rich696

Devoted-Deserter, thank-you once again for offering some insider perspective.  I for one have found it very illuminating.

 *“**Oh ye who believe! Take not the Jews and Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk. »

*I was very interested to learn that a better translation might be leaders.  I think the issues that it raises, however, would be better suited to a thread on multi-cultural societies, so I won't bring them up now.

You say that Muslims usually take their interpretations from Muslim scholars.  Does this include mullahs, or generally only mujtahids and ayatollahs?  Does the Muslim only look to scholars for interpretation - in a similar way to how Catholics traditionally looked to the priest for the only interpretation of the Bible - or is there some room for individual interpretation of the Scriptures within the Islamic faith?

Thanks once again.


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## cherine

Rich696 said:
			
		

> You say that Muslims usually take their interpretations from Muslim scholars. Does this include mullahs, or generally only mujtahids and ayatollahs? Does the Muslim only look to scholars for interpretation - in a similar way to how Catholics traditionally looked to the priest for the only interpretation of the Bible - or is there some room for individual interpretation of the Scriptures within the Islamic faith?


 
Mullahs and ayatollahs are shiite muslims. I don't know much about their doctrine or their interpretation of the Holy Coran, so I won't try to speak about that. As for sunni muslims, they have their scholars, generally called ulama (ulema') (which is synoym for scholars). there are mainly old ulama's interpretations of the Book, like Ibn Kathir, At-Tabary, As-Siyuti.... but there are also modern ones like Mohamed Abdo, Mohamed al-Ghazaly (the modern one, there's an older Ghazaly in Islamic heritage) and one very famous -at least in Egypt- Sha'rawy.

Generally speaking any muslim can interpret the Coran. But the rule is that he/she can't do this until they get enough knowledge ('elm) -same root as 'alem (scholar), ulama' (scholars). This knowledge is not only religious but also in language, grammar, history... and other things, I can look for the details for you if you wish.
Also an important thing, as DevotedDeserter said, interpreting a verse must be done with respect of its context, there were many wrong or misinterpretations due to the decontextualizing of verses. If you keep the verse in its context you sort of get the whole picture and so can make a better understanding of its meaning and interpret it right. This is one of the reasons why translating the Coran is very difficult and never "faithful" to the original text.


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## cubaMania

borhane said:
			
		

> ...how can be my reaction when I see the last video , when British soldiers strike youth Irakians in "Bassora" ...!!! it's not easy to see injustice and to not be able to change the situation , you know !!...


Yes, any normal decent person of any religion or non-religion anywhere in the world seeing those latest videos is disgusted. And it must be even more difficult when it is easy to picturre yourself in the place of the victims. Thus far one person has been arrested in connection with those events. Let us hope that the rest will also be arrested and that they will be properly punished. We will have to wait to see whether this is taken seriously and is investigated honestly. That is my greatest disappointment with earlier disclosures of abusive behavior by USA against Iraqi citizens. It is true that several soldiers, both male and female, have been tried in court and sentenced to prison terms. But the investigations were not honest enough, and those higher up in command were shielded from blame and never punished. I believe that higher level commanders should have been prosecuted, all the way up to the Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld, as well as our US Attorney General Alberto Gonzales the "torture lawyer," who wrote some policies that encouraged and excused this intolerable behavior. In addition, my government did not go far enough in making it absolutely clear that USA soldiers are NOT authorized to abuse under any circumstances. We are still fighting that fight here in USA, with our Senator John McCain trying to pass an anti-torture law against the opposition of the Bush administration. John McCain endured 5 years of torture as a prisoner of war, so he is in a unique position to know what he is doing on this, but the Bush administration has opposed many parts of the law. I believe my country must rid itself of the Bush administration including Cheney, Rumsfeld, Gonzales, and many others who are responsible for taking my country into an unjust war, and then making it even worse by excusing vicious abuses against both prisoners and ordinary citizens. It makes me sick to my stomach when I see some of the pictures of abuses in Iraq and Guantanamo. It makes me even more horrified knowing that those responsible in Washington are still in power.


			
				borhane said:
			
		

> ...What do you think of an Irakian or a palestinian who has lost members of his family , and knows that US , England or Israel is the cause of their death !!...


This is a much more complex subject to me. Both Israelis and Palestinians are mourning their innocent family members who have been killed. I do believe that the Palestinians have been abused by Israel, however, here I believe the blame lies as much on the other side as on the side of Israel. The middle east has been awash for decades in the most vicious and ugly lies about Israeli and Palestinian issues. I believe that the Palestinians have been ill-used as tools for the purposes of various Arab governments and extremist Islamic segments. Many Arab and extremist Muslim factions have been false friends to Palestinians, manipulating them for political purposes and making it impossible for them to reach a settlement with Israel. I think that Palestinians could long ago have made a good settlement and built a decent homeland if they had not been deliberately and dishonestly used as tools for other purposes. Unfortunately, after so many years of this, both sides, Israelis and Palestinians, have such serious grievances and bad history between them that it is very difficult to find any solution. We have extremists and fundamentalists on both sides of this issue, and as long as they have control, this conflict will not end.


----------



## Devoted-Deserter

Hi all,
I’ve made a simple search and this is what I have got. The same verse token from an authorized translation of the Koran (I‘m not sure about the authorization and what it is). It appears to me that this one is made upon an explanatory Arabic translation, and hence, it is more accurate. Here you are:
[5:51] O you who believe, do not take certain Jews and Christians as allies; these are allies of one another. Those among you who ally themselves with these belong with them. GOD does not guide the transgressors. 
[5:52] You will see those who harbor doubt in their hearts hasten to join them, saying, "We fear lest we may be defeated." May GOD bring victory, or a command from Him, that causes them to regret their secret thoughts. 
[5:53] The believers will then say, "Are these the same people who swore by GOD solemnly that they were with you?" Their works have been nullified; they are the losers. 
It appears that this translator has chosen the word ally and then, in the verses coming the word friend. I will look for an Arabic explanation of the verse and work out the translation of the explanation. Nonetheless, he used certain Jews and Christians according the verses to their context. Here you are:
[5:57] O you who believe, do not befriend those among the recipients of previous scripture who mock and ridicule your religion, nor shall you befriend the disbelievers. You shall reverence GOD, if you are really believers. 
There are other verses in the Koran where Jews and Christians are mentioned, but only some of them are subject of the verse. Often it is either traitors that were leaving among Muslims (Often translated by Hypocrites) or mockers.
As Ms Cherine said, the Muslims that can interpret Koran have to be aware of the context of the verses (when and why they have been revealed), and considered as head in the Arabic language. 
I think that this thread will go further then it was intended first. Some might ask, what is the link? Whereas I believe the question what are the causes of terrorism?
Nowadays, people are getting from close to closest in this new _village world._ Technology was first intended to make humans live better through health and work conditions improvement, and a better education level. Alas, it becomes a tool of oppression and it is used now to get more control over the world by those who master it. The spread of technology goes faster beyond what it was foreseen. I do not know the exact reasons, but it seems to me that we notice more violence even between communities of the same culture. The bigger the cities are, the violent the people are. May be we are not ready to get that much close. I do not think that religion has any relation with terrorism, especially not Islam, since it is said in Koran that Mahomet, Jesus, David and Moses are all prophets, and we do believe they were all humans. And that we, Muslims, Christians and Jews, we all worship the same God.
Do you believe that we are more or less educated then we were in the past? Do you also believe that religion is really implied in terrorism? 
Do you think we are decent CubaMania? (The majority) 
May be the power of technology, economic stake and  the new policy (International Organisations) changed what was known before as theocracy and segregation into opression that has had terrosim as consequance. People of both side are opressed in different ways.
 
I’m waiting for your replies.
Sincerely yours.


----------



## GenJen54

With all due and humble respect to our Muslim forer@s, I wish to give an answer, from a Western perspective, as to WHY there is a connection between Islam and Terrorism. 

Actually, *I* do not have to. One of your own Clerics has done that job for me, HERE. 

I ask in all sincerety why is it that the voice of "terror" in Islam is so much greater than the voice of "Peace." Why do the peaceful Muslims not turn out in equal numbers and declare these "terrorists" and those who support them as wrong? 

I guess until I understand that completely, I will not _fully_ be able to see Islam - as a whole - as a "peaceful" religion, when so many of its followers turn away from peace and towards progressive violence, as sanctioned and encouraged by its own religious leaders.

Thank you for understanding this question, and for your replies.


----------



## BasedowLives

People associate islam to terrorism because every time we hear about terrorism on the news it's usually by an islamic extremist.  Almost EVERY DAY you turn on the tv and hear about someone exploding themselves on a bus or something of that nature.

Maybe if the news showed some of the things that muslims did that didn't involve explosives then it wouldn't be linked like that.

It's kind of like in the USA how christianity is associated with ignorant pro-life, gunloving, anti-evolution southerners.  It's not the truth but that's how it gets played out more often than not.


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## cubaMania

Devoted-Deserter said:
			
		

> ... I think that this thread will go further then it was intended first. Some might ask, what is the link? Whereas I believe the question what are the causes of terrorism? ...


"What are the causes of terrorism?" is a huge, huge complicated question.  I think the original question was "Why is terrorism linked to Islam?" which is a much narrower question.


			
				Devoted-Deserter said:
			
		

> ... I do not think that religion has any relation with terrorism, especially not Islam, since it is said in Koran that Mahomet, Jesus, David and Moses are all prophets, and we do believe they were all humans. And that we, Muslims, Christians and Jews, we all worship the same God. ...


But Islam is more than just the Koran, just as Judaism is more than just the Hebrew Bible, and Christianity is more than just the Christian Bible.
(I also have a big problem with the inclusion of only Muslems, Christians and Jews--that leaves out billions of people.)


			
				Devoted-Deserter said:
			
		

> ... Do you also believe that religion is really implied in terrorism? ...


Yes, religions can go astray.  There were horrible years when Christianity became responsible for the most hideous, vile, repugnant forms of violence imaginable, the Crusades being only one part of that.  It does not do any good to say "Oh, that's not what is in the Bible so Christianity was not responsible."  Christianity WAS responsible, and Christianity had to heal itself before it stopped causing these vicious crimes.  And now it is clear that many institutions of Islam, including religious schools that teach hate, clerics who preach violence, and Islamic theocratic governments that support terrorist activities ARE responsible.  So I asked the question above, what does Islam need to do to heal itself and stop causing the deaths of thousands of innocent people?


			
				Devoted-Deserter said:
			
		

> ... Do you think we are decent CubaMania? (The majority) ...


Yes, I think the majority of Muslims are normal, decent people, just like the majority of atheist, Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Taoists, Hindus, etc. are normal, decent people.  I think your neighbors and friends are probably like my neighbors and friends:  They want to raise their precious children in happy families and live comfortable lives in a peaceful world.  They do not want to kill anybody or commit any violence against anybody.  Unfortunately, when our religious institutions or our governments go wrong, that is not enough.
My own country, USA, has gone wrong and is doing terrible things in the world, bombing innocent people, beating and killing prisoners, it is sickening.  I cannot say "That's not in the constitution, and I didn't vote for the current administration, so I have no responsibility."  It is MY country, so I DO have responsibility.  I have to do what I can to change things so that eventually the wrongs my country is doing will stop.  I don't have the power to instantly heal my country, but I can try my best and hope that along with millions of others we will eventually change the course of our government. 


			
				Devoted-Deserter said:
			
		

> ... People of both side are opressed in different ways. ...


It is true that there is much oppression all over the world.  But we are certainly not all equally oppressed.  (I am one of the luckiest ones.  I am hardly oppressed at all.)  But oppression alone cannot explain violence against innocents.  Some who are oppressed do not commit violence against innocents, and some who commit violence against innocents are not oppressed--so oppression does not have an exclusive direct causal link to terrorism or other forms of violence.

Bad leaders are able to mislead many people using lies and fear, and in some cases using religion.  Muslim leaders are doing that to create Islamic terrorists.  USA leaders are doing that to justify invading Iraq and torturing prisoners.  When too many people believe their lies and succumb to the fear that they encourage, humans do terrible things to each other.

But if enough decent people are willing to face the truth and do their own small part to change things, they can make a difference.  We have seen many instances of reform throughout history that have made the world a better place.  It takes a long time, and it is not easy to do.


----------



## maxiogee

As an Irishman who has lived through our "Troubles" and having seen how whole demographic groupings of people can be tarred with the same brush from the actions/words of a few - on both sides of the political divide, on both sides of the religious divide, on both sides of "the Border" and on both sides of the Irish Sea.....

To turn the question around, and treat the millions of Muslems more fairly than the thread title suggests, perhaps it might be apposite to ask "Why is Islam linked to terrorism?"

We all know that the vast majority of Muslems have no desire to see anyone killed by terrorism, or by any other human activity.
We also can beleive that there are Muslem clerics who do not preach hate and revenge at the drop of a hat.
Why do some Muslem clerics, and their followers, believe that it is right to hate, right to threaten, right to terrorise people who have done them no harm, and offended no-one.

To take the example of the cartoons.
I acknowledge that Islam _might_ frown on depictions of "the Prophet" (this point seems debatable) and I acknowledge that the publication which first printed them _may_ have acted in the knowledge that some people might take offence at this.

1. Why does that initial printing result in the howls of protest aimed at Denmark - a country of about 5.5 million people, when only a small handful of them would have been involved in the decision to print the cartoon.
2. Why does a religion believe that it is right to threaten to kill people who may have 'disrespected' an all-powerful God, or a long-dead Prophet.
    ** Can God not look after his own reputation?
    ** Is not the Prophet's place in Paradise secure, irrespective of what some people think, or do, or say? (on a side note: Ian Paisley says things about the Pope, a person Roman Catholics believe is divinely chosen for his position, which are most objectionable, but no-one objects.)
3. Why does someone's opinion of a Prophet matter to the faithful?
    ** is faith in the prophet so insecure that an outsider can shake it?
    ** is it important what anyone other than "The Faithful" believe about a Prophet?
4. Why did the protests turn violent - resulting in the burning of a building?
    ** What, at the outset of the protest, was its aim?
5. Why do protests about the actions of a small group of people in Denmark turn into anti-European rallies?

I would be interested to hear from a Muslem on these points, which I ask in earnest, and without any intention to 'provoke'.


----------



## Devoted-Deserter

Hi all, 
Thank you for your questions and I’m sorry for this delay.
I would like to start by the questions that raised CubaMania.
First, when I was asking about how much people are decent I was talking about humans as a whole and not only Muslims. 
You wrote:” *Yes, religions can go astray*”. From my point of view, I believe that *religious can go astray* but not religion. You asked a much more complicated question that mine bye asking “what does Islam need to do to heal itself and stop causing the deaths of thousands of innocent people?” In my opinion we shall first understand the causes of terrorism, then and only then we may establish a link and figure out a cure.
The only answer of your question about how to explain violence against innocent, and I do believe that any normal person like you said will give you the same answer that there is no reason that could explain it either way they will not be innocent anymore. 
Yes, Islam is for sure more then Koran, it is Koran in addition to the Prophet’s (PBUH) saying and life. 
According to Human Rights Record:” The Associated Press reported on June 24, 2004 that the number of violent crimes in many US cities were on the rise. In 2003 Chicago alone recorded 598 homicides, 80 percent of which involved the use of guns. The Washington D.C. reported 41,738 murders, robberies and other violent crimes in 2003, averaging 6,406.4 cases per 100,000 residents. In 2004 the District recorded 198 killings, or a homicide rate of 35 per 100,000 residents. Detroit, which has less than 1 million residents, recorded 18,724 criminal cases in 2003, including 366 murders and 814 rapes, which amounted to a homicide rate of 41 per 100,000 residents.” 
I believe that this is a result of another form of oppression. Humans become much more violent and less decent and educated.
 This is also an answer to GenJen54 and BasedowLives. May be it is done in purpose. Communication plays a key role in our geopolitical world. The ones who control it show you only a part of the truth and I do not believe that Muslims are causing more violence then what is actually happening in western societies (more suicide, more racism…etc, phenomenon that are less observed in our Muslims countries). What the cleric said was just his opinion and the verses which Rich969 previously mentioned were talking about mockers and how we should deal with them. It is said clearly to not befriend with mockers but never, as far as Islam is concerned, to kill. 
The questions that Maxiogee raised were very intrusting. I have already said that the cartoons cannot hurt a long-dead prophet or an all-powerful God. So why are they causing so much violence?
The answer is pretty simple: 
Since we (Muslims and the rest of the world) all know that those cartoons cannot harm God or a long-dead Prophet, then what is the point behind?
Actually, making fun on them is making fun on the followers, because those are the only ones that could be harmed. It is a normal consequence of provoking an anger population to get violence as reaction. Violence is a human reaction to provocation not a religious one. We shall keep in mind that a significant part of those people are not well educated and they do not know what Islam is about. They are easy to convince and easy to use.
The voice of "terror" in Islam is so much greater than the voice of "Peace." I definitely agree that it seems to be the case. I’ve always thought that this way, it arranges many people. It is important for the western governments to have a threat and it is rewarding for media, whereas it allows extremists to have a show, a sort of an advertisement. This is the balance of our current world, without which the world will be completely different.
JenGen54 you also asked:” Why do the peaceful Muslims not turn out in equal numbers and declare these "terrorists" and those who support them as wrong?”
What do you think I am doing right here? 
Islam and Koran have been reported in an utterly distorted form, and I am trying my best to show you what actually it is about. Or do you believe that violence is more practiced and more consistent than what peace is?
Before going on, I would like to know what the causes of terrorism from your perspective are, just the most important causes. Is it Islam? Is it misunderstanding of Islam? Is it the geopolitical conditions?
Whatever you may think, I believe it will not offend me, so please feel free to formulate your questions the way you think it is better. 
Faithfully ,


----------



## maxiogee

Devoted-Deserter said:
			
		

> The questions that Maxiogee raised were very intrusting. I have already said that the cartoons cannot hurt a long-dead prophet or an all-powerful God. So why are they causing so much violence?
> The answer is pretty simple:
> Since we (Muslims and the rest of the world) all know that those cartoons cannot harm God or a long-dead Prophet, then what is the point behind?
> Actually, making fun on them is making fun on the followers, because those are the only ones that could be harmed. It is a normal consequence of provoking an anger population to get violence as reaction. Violence is a human reaction to provocation not a religious one. We shall keep in mind that a significant part of those people are not well educated and they do not know what Islam is about. They are easy to convince and easy to use.



I find it difficult to accept that violence and rioting is a proper reaction to 'making fun of'.
You say that it is a normal consequence of provoking an angry population to get violence as a reaction - this reads to me, and it may not have been your intention, but it is the words you have used - that the population was angry before the provocation.... and this is how the West experiences much of the population of Islamic regions, we see a people who are angry.

I was intrigued by your comment that a significant part of the these people are not well educated and do not know what Islam is about - this strikes a resonant chord with me, having grown up in an under-educated Ireland which was much in the grasp of the Catholic Church for years. This is changing as the country took its place among the rest of the world in the later years of the last century.
Do you believe that there are forces at work within the Islamic clergy which works to keep the population uneducated? Is this in some way related to the style of governments in the Middle East? There were forces within Ireland which could have protested the role of the Church in everyday life but didn't. (And while I cannot speak for other Catholic countries, I feel the same happened in many of them.) But that changed with economic prosperity and our close proximity to a rapidly changing Europe.
Maybe it will take an economic miracle to do the same for the "Islamic region". The revenues from years of oil exporting could have been used to better ends, I suppose, but that is something which cannot be undone now. I think that before the oil ends hard decisions need to be taken.


----------



## gorbatzjov

For the average Joe it's quiet easy to link Islam with Terrorism... All you hear in the media - EPECIALLY the British and USA media - is about terrorism and about the middle east. Most people in the Middle East have the islam as religion (I think), so there's the link...


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## cubaMania

Devoted-Deserter said:
			
		

> The Associated Press reported on June 24, 2004 that the number of violent crimes in many US cities were on the rise ...


Crime exists in all societies everywhere; it always has and always will. It is a separate subject from terrorism.



			
				Devoted-Deserter said:
			
		

> I do not believe that Muslims are causing more violence then what is actually happening in western societies (more suicide, more racism…etc, phenomenon that are less observed in our Muslims countries) ...


There are many other ills in the world besides terrorism. But I seriously question whether there is more racism in Western countries (have you taken a look at the news from Darfur lately? or how Filipino workers are treated in Saudi Arabia? and so on)--but whether that is so or not, it is not the question that this thread asks: "Why is terrorism linked to Islam?" I recognize, for instance, that my country has gone wrong and is the cause of great violence in the world. Other countries are also suffering great violence for completely different reasons--Haiti, for instance, or Rwanda, or Tibet--I could name others, but that avoids the question that was asked by this thread.



			
				Devoted-Deserter said:
			
		

> It is a normal consequence of provoking an anger population to get violence as reaction. Violence is a human reaction to provocation not a religious one. ...


If this is supposed to explain terrorism, then I could not possibly disagree with you more. Blowing up subways, trains, and buses full of commuters and schoolchildren is not a normal "human reaction" to anything--not to oppression, not to being offended, not to anything.




			
				Devoted-Deserter said:
			
		

> ... Why do the peaceful Muslims not turn out in equal numbers and declare these "terrorists" and those who support them as wrong?”
> What do you think I am doing right here? ...


This question did not come from me, but I think you are missing the point a bit. They are not asking you why the majority Muslim population does not address non-Muslims to tell them that Islam does not condone terrorism. They are asking you why the majority Muslim population does not protest against Muslims who commit terrorist acts in the name of Islam. (GenJen54, I hope I am not misinterpreting your question. Please correct me if I am.)




			
				Devoted-Deserter said:
			
		

> ... Before going on, I would like to know what the causes of terrorism from your perspective are, just the most important causes. Is it Islam? Is it misunderstanding of Islam? Is it the geopolitical conditions? ...


We can cite oppression, ignorance, fear, all kinds of things as contributory factors for various societal ills including crime, war, terrorism, and so on. But it avoids the real issue in this case. Terrorism has been and is practiced by other than Muslims. But at this time in history there is a very large amount of terrorism being committed in the name of Islam. That is a fact. When I see you trying to change the subject to just about anything else but the obvious, trying to talk instead about crime statistics, about oppression, about racism, it looks to me like an attempt to avoid facing the truth.

These suicide bombers are not committing these hideous murders as a "normal human reaction." They are doing so because Islamic institutions teach them to do it and Islamic leaders urge them to do it. Of course, other religions have their own crazy, violence-prone lunatics using religion for their own twisted purposes. But for the most part they are a tiny minority and have very little influence. But right now that is not the case in Islam. These Islamic institutions and leaders that teach and encourage hatred and terrorism number in the thousands and have a very large influence in the Muslim world. That is why I say Islam has a sickness of which it needs to heal itself. And I do not see how a sick society can cure itself of this cancer if its members refuse to recognize that there is any problem.

Certainly oppression, poverty, ignorance, lack of education, fear, and so on, contribute to a breeding ground where people can more easily be lead astray, I can agree with you about that. I do not doubt at all that you believe what you are writing here, but I must say that it only convinces me even more that there is an illness infecting Islam. I do know that this does not have to be so because we have the history of a peaceful and tolerant Islam. But that was the past--today a very large segment of Islamic institutions and leadership are fostering intolerance, hatred, and terrorism in the name of religion. That is why terrorism and Islam are linked in the media and in peoples' minds--because there is a link in reality. It may be distorted by the press, but it is there.

There could be other threads addressing other evils in the world, of which there are many many many, but this thread is about "Why is terrorism linked to Islam?"


----------



## natasha2000

borhane said:
			
		

> Many people believe that Muslims are terrorist , even when they know that they are the wronged singles and groups today!
> Muslims are oppressed in Palestine by Zionists !!! in India , in Russia , in Serbia , in Nigeria.....................!!!!
> Moreover , here in Algeria terrorists were killing thier brothers ! for over a decade they slaughtered women and babies in such a cruel way !!!!
> bombing schools , markets and mosques...........!!!!
> and after all that , the world is treating us as terrorists !!!!!!!!!
> If you think like that please tell me why , if not please let me know


 
What about Serbia?


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## Devoted-Deserter

Dear CubaMania ;
 
Crime definitely exists in any country of the world but not the same rate. I just linked crime to the kind of oppression that the west is subject to. 
When I was talking about a normal consequence I was talking about the manifestations, and never about bombs. I never stated that terrorism is a normal human reaction; I just tried to explain to you why the populations are angry. Provocation causes manifestation and this is normal in my opinion. Nevertheless, I think that this is unique thread linked by its nature; the evils cannot be treated separately, at least the evils that terrorist endured before becoming what they become now. Finding a cure requires identifying the virus.
In a matter of fact you are linking terrorism to some Muslims, especially Muslims that were born Muslims and are not Muslims by faith.
-         Those people were born in rich countries but they are living a life of misery, at least a significant part of them is. Their parents were born under colonialism, they have had no education, and they can give no education to their children.
-         They grown up under oppression. They have no future and no ambitions. The majority of them do not know the less principle of Islam. Learning Koran and preaching do not prove that they do believe in our principles. The regimes that govern their countries are corrupted. The only reason that they are not subject of international investigations is that those regimes serve western governments. 
Those people can see only one thing; the west as the root of all their troubles.
1-     Colonialism till the fiftieths.
2-     The regimes they have to endure. The west is always ok when it comes to pursue Arab leaders but never the terrorist they settled in the middle-east. 
3-     International organisations played by the international law. VETO!! 
4-     Palestinians tracked and killed on continual bases.
5-     Iran and Syria threaten by countries that do possess weapons of mass destruction; the saddest part is that some of them use some banned weapons to settle democracy. (CubaMania: I do not state that someone should possess such weapons, the west included)
Take into consideration the fact that:
1-     Those people believe in the hereafter. (This is the only point 
2-     There are not enough Islamic institutions to better educate people. (Unlike what you might think) 
I believe that from a total of more than 1.5 billion Muslims around the world some could easily be lead astray. The only people that can keep themselves far from the dark feelings of hate, revenge and suicide are religious. The others’ choice par excellence is the easy out. 
My question is:
Have you ever seen a terrorist that do not come from the countries I am talking about?
Why terrorism tendencies do not gain the western Muslims? (Native westerns)
 
_Why do the peaceful Muslims not turn out in equal numbers and declare these "terrorists" and those who support them as wrong?_
Sorry, I’ve made a mistake, I’ve thought it was your question, really sorry and thank you for your explanation. If the question was intended like that, than I can only say one thing; In Algeria, We have experienced in the last decade the more cruel forms of terrorism. No one can say we haven’t condemned it. Though, Europe never cares about the terrorist leaders collecting money and preaching for war free of any control, except some Belgian responsible. Allegedly, that was freedom of speech and belief as long as the Muslims were the victims.
What has been done has been done, we cannot change it. I do not blame anyone. We shall urge to stop this, and I do not know why.
 
Dear Maxiogee, the forces that are actually directly or indirectly evolved are:
- The systems: Somehow it arranges them to keep people the way they are.
- The world economy: Poverty keeps them away from learning and education.
- Segregation: A significant part of today’s youth is far from religion and do not really care about it. Those who do isolated themselves from those who do not, to keep away from temptation and corruption. 
I do not believe that there is an Islamic clergy working to keep people uneducated, the problem is that the Islamic clergy do not work to better educate people, and those who try to, find themselves almost treated the same way like terrorists. I do believe you CubaMania when you say you work hard to change what should be changed, I know you talk in good-faith. I am also working in that perspective, but I am not so much confident that either you or I could change the fewer things. Confusion has gained our world, and I think that people become so selfish and that there is no readiness to make sacrifices, not even to take the time and learn about the others and how to respect them. 
By sacrifices I do not mean suicide bombs!! Because, from a religious point of view, terrorism is never justified.
Well, I tried to get things straight and I hope it was clear.
Yours;


----------



## cubaMania

Devoted-Deserter said:
			
		

> Well, I tried to get things straight and I hope it was clear.
> Yours;


Devoted-Deserter, I think we will not be able to agree on the answer to the question "Why is terrorism linked to Islam?"  But it is clear to me that you are a lovely person who cares deeply about other human beings and wants to live an honorable life.

Let us both hope that there are enough millions of other good people in the world, each doing his or her small part to try to ease the sufferings of humanity and to try to make the world a better place.  Millions together have made a difference in past history, and it can happen again.  Never give up.


----------



## annettehola

"I ask in all sincerety why is it that the voice of "terror" in Islam is so much greater than the voice of "Peace." Why do the peaceful Muslims not turn out in equal numbers and declare these "terrorists" and those who support them as wrong? 

I guess until I understand that completely, I will not _fully_ be able to see Islam - as a whole - as a "peaceful" religion, when so many of its followers turn away from peace and towards progressive violence, as sanctioned and encouraged by its own religious leaders."

- writes GenJen54.  

I write: The question is as naive and arrogant as it is necessary. Naive, because the words suggest that "peaceful muslims" go out in equal numbers to protest agains those of their own faith that are aggressive. Who anywhere would be likely to do so, GenJen? Have you ever heard about Catholics in Southern Ireland, to take an example, who went out into the streets in, say, Dublin or Cork with banners going:"Oh, Brethern in the North of Eyre, fight not, a good Catholic is a peaceful one!" Romantic bla-bla, GenJen54. Such is not the world that is real. There has been and there are intellectuals also in the world of Islam, that's obvious, that have been and are protesting against the violence of their co-believers in written and spoken form. You can find loads by searching the Internet, f.ex. or in newspapers.
The arrogant aspect to the question as I see it, lies here: Who could not just as well turn your question upsid-down, GenJen54? Asking, f.ex., "Why do not more Americans go out into the streets of Washington or whereever, with banners saying:"Oh, Bro's and Sis', vote not for Bush! A decent person is an independent person who can and will think!" See what I mean? "Terror" and "Peace"? But that is not something Black and White; man! Religion and religious regimes are very much more often than not the direct and unfalsified reflection of politics and political regimes: Totalitarian to an extent it makes you sick. If the "leaders" of Islam, whoever they might be, support violence, then I don't think you'd find many a person who'd frankly declare:"I am against it and I shall and will fight for my belief. These guys are murderes and I will do what I can to stop them." But they are needed, oh, they are needed. Therein lies the necessity of your question.
Annette


----------



## borhane

natasha2000 said:
			
		

> What about Serbia?


   La situation des Albanais du Kosovo est catastrophique : en majorité, ils sont exclus du pouvoir, de la production, de la vie sociale normale. Ce que l'on peut constater, c'est qu'au Kosovo s'opposent deux autoritarismes (serbe et albanais), deux nationalismes, mais qui n'ont ni la même organisation ni la même force. Le gouvernement serbe, appuyé par un important système policier, exerce une forte répression à l'encontre de la communauté albanaise (nombreuses arrestations et tortures)
© Encyclopædia Universalis 2004, tous droits réservés



I'll try to translate this passage into English later


----------



## cubaMania

annettehola said:
			
		

> ... The arrogant aspect to the question as I see it, lies here: Who could not just as well turn your question upsid-down, GenJen54? Asking, f.ex., "Why do not more Americans go out into the streets of Washington or whereever, with banners saying:"Oh, Bro's and Sis', vote not for Bush! A decent person is an independent person who can and will think!" See what I mean?...


Please forgive me for butting in again on someone else's question. Annette I find your post very interesting and insightful and I think it makes an important point. But the particular part I quote above is a problem. Your assumption that we do not go out into the streets and protest Bush's policies is incorrect. We do this frequently. There have been many anti-Bush and anti-Iraq-war rallies and demonstrations and there will continue to be more of them. Bush, Cheney and other members of the administration draw protest demonstrations everywhere they make a speech or appearance. Drive through any U.S. city and you will see cars with bumper stickers on them saying "Impeach Bush" or "Cheney is a Traitor" etc. (as well as those on the other side.)

Here's one example of protest against administration policies: I recently watched on television a speech by U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales given at a University (Washington State U., I think.) Gonzales is the "torture lawyer" who wrote some of the memos and legal opinions that the Bush administration and the US military have used to justify the odious treatment of prisoners in Iraq and other locations. In a room seating what looked like about 100 or 150 listeners, about 3 minutes after the start of the speech, about 15 or 20 people stood up and turned their backs on Gonzales. Several of them put onto their heads pointed black hoods similar to what we saw in the infamous horrible pictures from Abu Ghraib, leaving us in no doubt about exactly what they were protesting. Those people remained standing with their backs to Gonzales for the entire speech (about 45 minutes.) This act was offensive to many, but to me it is an example of the highest and best use of our cherished rights of freedom of speech. We do not have a right to silence Gonzales no matter how much we disagree with him, and he spoke his piece without interruptions, but the audience eloquently expressed their protest against his part in US policies. That's freedom of speech, and that is why a obscure Danish newspaper has a right to print satiric cartoons even if they offend some people.

So I say the rest of your post is very interesting. And an additional relevant point is that the original question came from somebody who lives in a society that has "freedom of speech" as a cherished core value, but was addressed to someone in a society which does not necessarily have this as a core value. Additionally, there is the element of danger. In my country we have a tradition of protest, and so we can march in the street, put up our bumper stickers, and protest at speeches without fear that anyone will point a gun at us or firebomb our homes or cars. That may not be the case in many countries where Muslims live. In my country I don't have to be a hero to be a protester, but in some Muslim countries it would take a hero to risk making such protests.


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## annettehola

Thanks, CubaMania, for your post that touched me. I would like to shake hands with you. 

I am very happy to hear of the tradition of protest in your country. The story of the standing protest is absolutely beautiful. It is, as you say, a clear expression of *Freedom of Speech *and it is, moreover, a demonstration of the fact that speech is expression of what we think and feel, not only in spoken form. 

I sincerely thank you for that story, CubaMania.

Tell me more, please. I want to know about people who spoke against those in power in North America. Tell me what you know, please.

Maybe we can open another thread on this? What do you think, CubaMania? I tell you, the subject interests me very much.

A warm handshake and a hug,

Annette


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## cubaMania

Annette, that subject might be too political for this forum.  Perhaps a thread on differences in core values (such as freedom of speech) as they exist in various countries and cultures?  I'm not sure there would be interest in discussing it or even whether it is an appropriate subject in this particular place.


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## annettehola

What??

That in itself is to limit your own freedom to speak!

Too political?? I have no need to discuss politics. I don't wish to be within that idiotic framework. I want to hear and let be heard the voices of those that speak against it and that insist on their own authentic voice.
You can read elsewhere what I personally think of "Political correctness."

Annette


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## Outsider

annettehola said:
			
		

> What??
> 
> That in itself is to limit your own freedom to speak!
> 
> Too political?? I have no need to discuss politics. I don't wish to be within that idiotic framework. I want to hear and let be heard the voices of those that speak against it and that insist on their own authentic voice.
> You can read elsewhere what I personally think of "Political correctness."
> 
> Annette


Freedom of speech exists in public discussion, but not in a private Internet forum such as this. We post here as guests to the owners of the site, and we must abide by their rules.

I don't know if an extended discussion of the protests against the Iraq war is against the forum rules, the moderators will tell us, but it certainly seems to be far from the topic of this particular thread. 

Going back to the original theme, here's a case of non-Islamic terrorism.


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## cubaMania

annettehola said:
			
		

> What??
> That in itself is to limit your own freedom to speak!
> ...


It's very vert important, I think, not to muddle the definition of freedom of speech in this way.  Free speech refers to public expression, and this forum is private and has its own set of rules, so freedom of speech is not an applicable principle.  But... you can start a thread and if the mods don't object and the forum members express interest, you'll have your discussion.


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## maxiogee

annettehola said:
			
		

> I have no need to discuss politics. I don't wish to be within that idiotic framework. I want to hear and let be heard the voices of those that speak against it and that insist on their own authentic voice.



Annette, to discuss the actions and to hear the voices of those who oppose certain political situations is, *by its very nature* to be political. 

You surely know that I cannot tell you how and why "A" opposes "B" without telling you what "B" is, and in this case "B" is the political system of the USA.


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## swingbolder

> There has been and there are intellectuals also in the world of Islam, that's obvious, that have been and are protesting against the violence of their co-believers in written and spoken form. You can find loads by searching the Internet, f.ex. or in newspapers.


 
I just read a story in the NY Times yesterday about Muslim journalists -- in Jordan, Yemen and some other Middle Eastern countries -- speaking out against the violence. Some of the them even printed the cartoons to better inform their readers about the whole controversy. For their efforts some of them have been jailed (for blasphemy) and issued death threats. I think this climate of fear is why more moderate Muslims do not speak out.



> Tell me more, please. I want to know about people who spoke against those in power in North America. Tell me what you know, please.


 
Where I live -- outside of New York City -- people speak out against Bush and Co. all the time. On the night Bush gave his state of the union speech, a group of protestors marched through my downtown. Every Saturday, there is a group in my town called Women In Black who stage a silent protest at a busy local intersection. I went to a Martin Luther King Jr. event at the community center near where I live and speaker after speaker got up and denounced the president. Etc. And these are just events of the last month or so.


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## Musique

Salam,

I believe that the U.S. is to blame for all of the "Muslims are terrorists" theories. I like the Islamic culture. I would have nothing against an Islamic person if one were to come to me. It is simply because of the car-bombings and the war! Just because Iraq is an Islamic country!

On 9/11 when the airplane crashed, the person that was responsible was Islamic! But the U.S. was being stubborn and then considered all Islams terrorists. There is no need to consider an Islam a "terrorist" all the time. Although I would check them just to make sure. But it would NOT mean I am prejudice. I just wouldn't want anymore people hurt in this perod of time.

Islams are being seriously mistreated. Just because of thier religion. If only peace were an option. Then the world would be back in order. The Iraqi War caused all this commotion. Now it is time for it to stop it. (In my opinion.)


Ma’a salama,
Musique


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## annettehola

Sorry, I can't 1) believe this post 2) understand it. 

a)"I would have nothing against an Islamic person if one were to come to me." Is that to say you would not approach one? You, who "like Islamic culture"?

b) "On 9/11 when the airplane crashed, the person that was responsible was Islamic!" I don't think the world knows anything whatsoever about where the responsibility of 9/11 lies yet. Washington leaks VERY little, and it still remains an open issue, at least as far as the public is concerned. Your theory is simply primitive because it is simplistic.

c)"There is no need to consider an Islam a "terrorist" all the time. Although I would check them just to make sure." It's far between that I read such crap as this. And how would you "check them just to make sure"? And what puts you in a position to "check on " anyone?? I feel sick.

d)"Islams are being seriously mistreated. Just because of thier religion. If only peace were an option. Then the world would be back in order" First: people who support Islam are not called "Islams." They are called "Muslims." Second: What "order" is it you're on about "if only peace were an option"? The U.S. order or what order, "God's order,"? 

e)"The Iraqi War caused all this commotion. Now it is time for it to stop it. (In my opinion.) Is "it" a typo here? Or do you mean that it's time for the war to stop itself? 

Quite a lot of people are tired of the oil-wars. (In my opinion).

Annette


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## surfingnirvana

> Salam,
> 
> I believe that the U.S. is to blame for all of the "Muslims are terrorists" theories. I like the Islamic culture. I would have nothing against an Islamic person if one were to come to me. It is simply because of the car-bombings and the war! Just because Iraq is an Islamic country!
> 
> On 9/11 when the airplane crashed, the person that was responsible was Islamic! But the U.S. was being stubborn and then considered all Islams terrorists. There is no need to consider an Islam a "terrorist" all the time. Although I would check them just to make sure. But it would NOT mean I am prejudice. I just wouldn't want anymore people hurt in this perod of time.
> 
> Islams are being seriously mistreated. Just because of thier religion. If only peace were an option. Then the world would be back in order. The Iraqi War caused all this commotion. Now it is time for it to stop it. (In my opinion.)
> 
> 
> Ma’a salama,
> Musique




1)  A believer of Islam is referred to as a muslim, not an Islam =/

2)  I really must disagree with the connotations forming from the Iraqi War.  The jihadists started it, they are the ones who initiated this whole mess.  Over 90% of the blame goes to them.  Sure, Westerners perpetuate this, but it was the deeds of the jihadists combined with the reluctance of apologies from the umma( quite similar to the Danes, and it is quite hypocritical )for actions of jihadists.

3)  And it is NOT just because they read the Qur'an.  It is also behavior.  In my town, well, not technically my town but part of the township as my town is really a hamlet, employees at a 7-11 were giving away free candy September 11th.  This coupled with the cheers in many countries led to this sad stereotype.  

When we get down to it, people of all creeds can be terrorists, or, no faith at all.  Terrorism shouldn't, in a utopia, be coupled with Islam.  But, then again, utopia means no place.  Also, I think the pair exists because of the prevelance of support for Sharia.  In all senses, Sharia appears to be very barbaric.  Homosexuals are hanged in Saudi Arabia, right?  And isn't it that an adultress is stoned to death?  It is too far behind.  Sharia simply cannot exist in the modern world, at least with respect from other countries.  It's behaviors are antiquated and another reason why terrorism is linked with Islam.  

As for me...I don't care anymore.  It's a little sad that one of the most culturally rich places of the world is in such turmoil with no hope for a better future.  I depserately wanted to go to Israel last summer but because of this our plans were cancelled.  I just wish they could work it out.  But with jihadists you can't reason.  They excuse everything with god.  Even with believers, oh, they can be seen as sacrifices and a necessity.  It's sad, so I count my blessings that I get to be raised in America with so much oppurtunity granted to me.  Maybe one day we can look at this like we look at the Cold War now?  Distant and no longer a problem?

God Bless

-Surfingnirvana


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## annettehola

Could you explain what you mean with this sentence of yours?

"It was the deeds of the jihadists combined with the reluctance of apologies from the umma( quite similar to the Danes, and it is quite hypocritical )for actions of jihadists."

I find it obscure.

Thanks.

Annette


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## surfingnirvana

> Could you explain what you mean with this sentence of yours?
> 
> "It was the deeds of the jihadists combined with the reluctance of apologies from the umma( quite similar to the Danes, and it is quite hypocritical )for actions of jihadists."
> 
> I find it obscure.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Annette


 
Oh.  I meant to say that I think because of the actions of the jihadists, and the umma's reluctance to apologize for their actions as part of the reason for the Islam-Terrorism connotation.  I compared it to how the Prime Minister of Denmark refused to apologize to Islamic countries because he couldn't 'on behalf of the media'.  In both scenarios, because the majority won't apologize for the minority, the image of the minority is projected to the majority.

-Surfingnirvana


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## annettehola

Mr. Fogh Rasmussen has apologised on behalf of Jyllands-Posten's publication of the cartoons. He has done so in public, on TV.

I'm sure you can find a link on the Internet so you can read the whole content of it. 

He reacted far too late, but the response did come in the end.

Annette


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## ¿Qué?

Everyone has their own opinion. And this is what this forum is about annette...please don't go against Musique's opinion. As Musique said "In my opinion."

Sorry for causing any trouble if I did,
¿Qué?


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## cuchuflete

¿Qué?  You are responding to something posted weeks ago.
Why do you ask one member not to disagree with another's opinion?  That is basic to most discussions in these forums. 

 If we all agreed, there would be little point in having conversations beyond complimenting one another on our wisdom and astuteness.


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## beakman

Devoted-Deserter said:
			
		

> Dear CubaMania ;
> 
> In a matter of fact you are linking terrorism to some Muslims, especially Muslims that were born Muslims and are not Muslims by faith.
> - Those people were born in rich countries but they are living a life of misery, at least a significant part of them is. Their parents were born under colonialism, they have had no education, and they can give no education to their children.
> - They grown up under oppression. They have no future and no ambitions. The majority of them do not know the less principle of Islam. Learning Koran and preaching do not prove that they do believe in our principles. The regimes that govern their countries are corrupted. The only reason that they are not subject of international investigations is that those regimes serve western governments.


Hello!
I've just come across this thread and I have some ideas.
First of all, I do link the terrorism to fanaticism. Actually, it is obviously linked to Islamic fanatics (I haven't heard of any Tibétan monk involved in any terrorist act, just for example).
But it would be unfair to point out only religious fanaticism as responsable for commiting atrocious acts. Fanaticism have many faces and can be of different natures. What all shapes of fanaticism share are ideas, certain ideas which drive certain people mad. Any fanaticism is a product of ideological brainwashing. People who make themselves idols and faithfully follow them go mad and they take every chance to serve their ideas and then all means are worthful. The true reason of this is not the idea itself but this very blind faith which I link to ignorance. So, certain people are ignorant people. And it doesn't have anything to do with oppresion, the place of birth, the income or the nationality.
The questions which spontaneously arose are: who is interested to keep people ignorant? Why instead of learning religious texts, for example, people don't spend their time on reading other literatura wherever they are living? Why are they obsessed with religion? Why don't they read instead "Thousand and one night"(as for mi, during my childhood I was saturated with Arabian, English, Chinese, etc. fairy tales as well as Russian tales).Isn't it much more interesting to open new horizons? Why it is necessary to be a follower of some idea? Don't people have their *own eyes, ears and brains*? Isn't it better to be a person whith your own knowledge of the world (it's not only based on books but mostly on life, suffering,...), be responsable for *your *acts and just help people who need it and who is near you (if I could help all people, I'll be the god) *with or without god*,I mean without looking for it? Because there are two things which *all* people share: that we are born and that some day we'll die. So, at least in these we are the same.


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## Pivra

no....at least i dont think muslims are terrorists  .....i think islam is a very peaceful religion by its fundamental


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## mansio

Pivra

The fundamentals of Islam allow Muslims to resort to violence when attacked.
Yes, Muslims are nice people.


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## maxiogee

mansio said:
			
		

> Pivra
> 
> The fundamentals of Islam allow Muslims to resort to violence when attacked.
> Yes, Muslims are nice people.



Generally speaking, I have found that individually, _everybody_ is 'nice people', it is when people begin to act in concert that things change - be they Muslims, republicans in Northern Ireland, a tabloid roused anti-paedophile mob or a pro-life crusade in America's bible belt.


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