# Bronze & Brass



## CyrusSH

First let's look at etymonline:

Online Etymology Dictionary

bronze (n.)
1721, "alloy of copper and tin," from French bronze, from Italian bronzo, from Medieval Latin bronzium. Perhaps cognate (via notion of color) with Venetian bronza "glowing coals," or German brunst "fire." Perhaps influenced by Latin Brundisium the Italian town of Brindisi (Pliny writes of aes Brundusinum). Perhaps ultimately from Persian birinj "copper." 

Online Etymology Dictionary

brass (n.) 
    Old English bræs "brass, bronze," originally in reference to an alloy of copper and tin (now bronze), later and in modern use an alloy of two parts copper, one part zinc. A mystery word, with no known cognates beyond English. Perhaps akin to French brasser "to brew," because it is an alloy. It also has been compared to Old Swedish brasa "fire," but no sure connection can be made. Yet another theory connects it with Latin ferrum "iron," itself of obscure origin. 

So we have two Germanic words with the meaning of "fire", a Persian word which actually means "brass" not "copper" and some French, Latin, Venetian and Italian words.

My first question is that these two words (Bronze and Brass) relate to each other or not?


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## CyrusSH

I think _brass_ could be a loanword from the Scythian language, in the Middle Persian _brinj_ had two different meanings with different origins (the main difference was in the first letter "b"), one of them was "brass" and another one was "rice", the English word _rice_ seems to have also a Scythian origin but through Old French _ris_ from Greek _oryza_. We don't know what these Scythian words were but in both of them Persian _nj_ probably changed to _s/z_ sound, so the word for "brass" could be _bris_ or even _bras_.


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## mundiya

The Middle Persian "brinj", English "rice", Greek "oryza", etc. don't have a Scythian origin. They ultimately derive from Sanskrit "vrīhí-", which is borrowed from a Dravidian language (cf. Manfred Mayrhofer).


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## CyrusSH

mundiya said:


> The Middle Persian "brinj", English "rice", Greek "oryza", etc. don't have a Scythian origin. They ultimately derive from Sanskrit "vrīhí-", which is borrowed from a Dravidian language (cf. Manfred Mayrhofer).



It is possible but the Greek word was not borrowed directly from a Dravidian language, not even Sanskrit and Persian.


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## CyrusSH

It is interesting to know how Middle Persian _brinj_ (brass) has been changed to Arabic _filiz_ (metal)?


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## berndf

CyrusSH said:


> not even Sanskrit and Persian.


Direct borrowing of Greek ὄρυζα from Persian, Parthian, Bactrian or another related Iranian language is plausible and probable.


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## apmoy70

For both Babiniotis & Beekes ὄρυζα is an eastern Iranian loan (cf Babiniotis: Pashto _vrižē_; Beekes: Afghan. _vrižē_ (f. pl.))


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## CyrusSH

berndf said:


> Direct borrowing of Greek ὄρυζα from Persian, Parthian, Bactrian or another related Iranian language is plausible and probable.



The most important point is that "n" (the nasal-infix) in the Persian word, the Greek word is also without "n", in fact "nj" has been changed to "z".


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## berndf

CyrusSH said:


> The most important point is that "n" (the nasal-infix) in the Persian word, the Greek word is also without "n", in fact "nj" has been changed to "z".


In most Eastern Iran languages there is no n either. The lack of n is not a problem for the theory of a direct Eastern Iranian loan.


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## rayloom

CyrusSH said:


> It is interesting to know how Middle Persian _brinj_ (brass) has been changed to Arabic _filiz_ (metal)?



Probably arrived to Arabic (and Hebrew פליז) via Aramaic plz.


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## CyrusSH

berndf said:


> In most Eastern Iran languages there is no n either. The lack of n is not a problem for the theory of a direct Eastern Iranian loan.



Yes and for this reason I said it was probably a loanword from the Scythian language, not Persian.


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## CyrusSH

rayloom said:


> Probably arrived to Arabic (and Hebrew פליז) via Aramaic plz.


My question is about the last letter, why Middle Persian "nj" was changed to "z"? The same thing has happened in Arabic _ruz_ (rice).


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## rayloom

CyrusSH said:


> My question is about the last letter, why Middle Persian "nj" was changed to "z"? The same thing has happened in Arabic _ruz_ (rice).



It might be as berndf said, an Eastern Iranian loan but into Aramaic. So there was no n. Aramaic has no j sound, so the z might have been the closest correspondence.
As for Arabic rice 'aruz, it also reached Arabic from Aramaic, so the change must've also happened there.
It's worth noting that some sources list "Old Iranian" vrīz (with a z), which has probably borrowed if from Sanskrit vrihi-s.


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## Treaty

At least in Greek, and possibly Aramaic (from Greek) the rice was probably introduced as an Indian food after Alexander's invasion. So we should not be surprised that they borrowed a variant closer to India. Even if they had borrowed it from Old Persian, we don't know if the OP words was the same as the MP one.


CyrusSH said:


> My question is about the last letter, why Middle Persian "nj" was changed to "z"?


An Aramaic inscription with _plz'_ "brass" was written in the year 486 (Seleucid) that is around 175AD. This would suggest the word might have borrowed not from Middle Persian but an older stage or Parthian - if it is a loan from Iranian, at all.
َAnyway, in an Iranica article _berenj _(the metal) is considered onomatopoetic from the ringing sound of metal. 


mundiya said:


> The Middle Persian "brinj", English "rice", Greek "oryza", etc. don't have a Scythian origin. They ultimately derive from Sanskrit "vrīhí-", which is borrowed from a Dravidian language (cf. Manfred Mayrhofer).


Does Sanskrit  turn into Iranian [z] in loanwords or does it indicate the word was borrowed in Proto-Indo-Iranian stage?


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## fdb

Treaty said:


> Does Sanskrit  turn into Iranian [z] in loanwords or does it indicate the word was borrowed in Proto-Indo-Iranian stage?




The Iranian words for “rice” cannot be borrowed from the Sanskrit vrīhi-. Either these are Indo-Iranian cognates, or they all come from a wanderword.


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## mundiya

fdb said:


> The Iranian words for “rice” cannot be borrowed from the Sanskrit vrīhi-. Either these are Indo-Iranian cognates, or they all come from a wanderword.



I should have said "Indo-Aryan" instead of the specific Sanskrit word. Mayrhofer traces it to pre-Vedic *vrijjhi-, which I think would satisfactorily explain the later Vedic, Iranian, and Greek words. Proto Indo-Iranian seems unlikely considering rice seems to have been a late introduction to the areas usually thought to be the original Indo-Iranian homelands.


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## CyrusSH

Another example of nj>z sound change is the Middle Persian word _ganj_ (treasure), this word has been changed to Greek gaza but in Arabic it is kanz.


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## berndf

A simplification of [ndʒ] to [dʒ] is not very difficult to imagine and [dz] would be the closest approximations of [dʒ] into the Greek sound inventory (remember that neither [ʒ] nor the unvoiced equivalent [ʃ] exist in Greek).

I know there is still a battle ongoing if the ancient Greek zeta was [dz] or [zd] but it must have been [dz] at least in some dialects and the letter would probably have been used to represent foreign [dz].


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## fdb

The real problem with Skt vrīhi and Persian b(i)rinj is that there do not seem to be any other examples for Skt /vr/ corresponding to Persian /br/. The “Eastern Iranian” hypothesis will only work if you posit an original Iranian br-, becoming Eastern Iranian βr-, and then vr- in Sanskrit, with the Indo-Aryan word borrowed from Iranian (?!). In the absence of any regular sound correspondence it seems more likely that this is an ancient wanderword. This is also Mayrhofer’s opinion in the second edition of his Sanskrit etymological dictionary.


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## CyrusSH

berndf said:


> A simplification of [ndʒ] to [dʒ] is not very difficult to imagine and [dz] would be the closest approximations of [dʒ] into the Greek sound inventory (remember that neither [ʒ] nor the unvoiced equivalent [ʃ] exist in Greek).
> 
> I know there is still a battle ongoing if the ancient Greek zeta was [dz] or [zd] but it must have been [dz] at least in some dialects and the letter would probably have been used to represent foreign [dz].



I also think that the original Persian sound was [ʒ] not [j], ʒ>z sound change in Arabic is common, it is good to mention [z] is usually considered as a Median-origin sound in Persian and we have z>d sound change in Persian.


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## CyrusSH

fdb said:


> The real problem with Skt vrīhi and Persian b(i)rinj is that there do not seem to be any other examples for Skt /vr/ corresponding to Persian /br/. The “Eastern Iranian” hypothesis will only work if you posit an original Iranian br-, becoming Eastern Iranian βr-, and then vr- in Sanskrit, with the Indo-Aryan word borrowed from Iranian (?!). In the absence of any regular sound correspondence it seems more likely that this is an ancient wanderword. This is also Mayrhofer’s opinion in the second edition of his Sanskrit etymological dictionary.



Aramaic _plz_ from Middle Persian _brinj_ (brass) was mentioned above, about _brinj/birinj_ with the meaning of "rice", in Persian we have _pilaw_ (cooked rice, pilaf), are these two words related? Could the first letters be pr/pl?


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## mundiya

fdb said:


> The real problem with Skt vrīhi and Persian b(i)rinj is that there do not seem to be any other examples for Skt /vr/ corresponding to Persian /br/.



Could vr > br have been an internal sound change within Iranian? In Pashto, for example, the word is _vrižē, _which corresponds closely to Sanskrit _vrīhi-. _


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## mundiya

CyrusSH said:


> Aramaic _plz_ from Middle Persian _brinj_ (brass) was mentioned above, about _brinj/birinj_ with the meaning of "rice", in Persian we have _pilaw_ (cooked rice, pilaf), are these two words related? Could the first letters be pr/pl?



For _pilaw _I believe there is general agreement that it's of Sanskrit origin (cf. pilau - definition of pilau in English | Oxford Dictionaries).


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## mundiya

fdb said:


> The real problem with Skt vrīhi and Persian b(i)rinj is that there do not seem to be any other examples for Skt /vr/ corresponding to Persian /br/. The “Eastern Iranian” hypothesis will only work if you posit an original Iranian br-, becoming Eastern Iranian βr-, and then vr- in Sanskrit, with the Indo-Aryan word borrowed from Iranian (?!). In the absence of any regular sound correspondence it seems more likely that this is an ancient wanderword. This is also Mayrhofer’s opinion in the second edition of his Sanskrit etymological dictionary.



This Iranica article also derives berenj from vrīhi, but it may be wrong for the reasons you mentioned. What do you feel is the explanation for the Pashto word, which has an intial /vr/~/wr/?



> _Berenj_, the generic term itself, derives from the Sanskrit _vrīhí_


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## desi4life

According to Wiktionary, Middle Persian _brinj “rice” _is from a reconstructed Old Persian _*vrinǰi-_, which is an eastern cultural word as reflected by similar forms in other Iranian languages and Sanskrit, and is either a loan from Dravidian (Proto-Dravidian _*wariñci_ “rice”) or another South Asian source such as Austro-Asiatic.


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