# ordentlicher Kaufmann



## gabriela1

Would "prudent merchant" be a good translation to

"Der Bewerber hat seine Gechaefte als *ordentlicher Kaufmann* zu fuehren."

This is part of a contract.

Thanks much!!!


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## Frank78

"ordentlicher" could be misleading, because it can mean "official" or "regular" as well as "tidy"

I´m not sure about the context. If its "regular" use "ordentlicher" if not use "umsichtig" or "vorausschauend"


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## gabriela1

I'm so sorry, I meant translate to English : ordentlich Kaufmann as in the sentence I provided earlier.

Thanks for your try anyway, hope you can help me.


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## Frank78

gabriela1 said:


> I'm so sorry, I meant translate to English : ordentlich Kaufmann as in the sentence I provided earlier.
> 
> Thanks for your try anyway, hope you can help me.



First I´d say "salesman/-woman"

I think it´s a " regular salesman"

Help from a native english speaker appreciated.


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## gabriela1

What about "ordentlich"

Would "prudent" be an appropriate word such as in "prudent salesman"?


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## MünchnerFax

I think _prudent _might do. Other options may be _responsible, judicious._


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## Frank78

gabriela1 said:


> What about "ordentlich"
> 
> Would "prudent" be an appropriate word such as in "prudent salesman"?


 
prudent   
  • *adjective* acting with or showing care and thought for the future. 



This is what the oxford dictionary says. 


And I googeled "prudent salesman" and had hundreds of hits, so I thinks its the right term.


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## gabriela1

Thanks much again!


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## berndf

It is a legal term and as with (almost) all legal terms you have lost before you started when trying to translate it using common sense.
 
I have no idea how to translate it by I can explain what I still remember from law class at university and maybe a native English speaker with background in law can come up with a proper translation.
 
A "Kaufmann" is every person who "runs a business" as regulate by the statute of commerce, the "Handelsgesetzbuch" (HGB). The terminology of the HGB centres on merchants and their businesses but the definitions are so encompassing that de facto almost all commercial activity is within the scope of the statute. I.e. the term is almost as general as (the non-legal term) “Geschäftsmann” (=”businessman”).
 
The term “ordentlicher Kaufmann” appears in the HGB but is not defined there. It is interpreted to mean a “businessman/woman who runs his/her business in a proper manner”, i.e. in accordance with generally accepted professional standards. The definition is vague on purpose to allow the flexibility to adapt to evolving commercial standards and is continuously (re-)interpreted by the courts.


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## gabriela1

Thanks very much for your input. I had the idea that it is a legal term but very difficult to find in english. A business person who deals often with contracts suggested "prudent salesman". As so many legal phrases or terms, it sounds really strange but what would you think about that term? I do agree, it would be nice to get the input from an english speaking person familiar with either business contracts or legal terminology in the world of business.

Vielen Dank nochmals!


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## berndf

One thing is crystal clear: "salesman" is *not* an appropriate translation.

We have quite a few native English speakers in this formum. Give it a bit more time.


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## brian

*Kaufmann* -- if it is a person who sells _something_ (a product), then _merchant, dealer, _or _retailer_ come to mind, but I'm not sure which is the most general or legal term. If it is a person who simply sells a _service_ but not a product (such as consultation), then you'd need a different word. Then there is of course _business owner_ to refer to anyone who owns his own business, no matter what kind.

*ordentlich* -- no idea, to be quite honest.  _Prudent_ does not sound good to me, but I have little experience in this domain. For example, you might say _ordinary merchant_, and even though that sounds odd or non-descriptive, who knows, it might be a technical term....


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## Frank78

I guess there isn't something like "ordentlich" in the Anglo-Saxon area. This is something very German :-D


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## brian

I found the following:

_ordentliche Geschäftstätigkeit = ordinary operations_

So maybe _ordinary_ is a technical term.


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## Frank78

There are also expressions like "ordentlicher Professor" , "ordentliches Gericht"


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## brian

Yeah a lot of this deals with cultural, legal, historical, bureaucratic, etc. jargon, which oftentimes we'll translate using the nearest cognate, e.g. _ordinary_. So we'll say _ordinary court_ or _ordinary professor_ but have to *define/explain* exactly what we mean.

Looking at this Wiki, for example, you'll see it describes the German _ordentliches Gericht_ as an _ordinary court_.

So point being: if we don't have a particular word for _ordentlich_ in reference to a _Kaufmann_, we may simply use _ordinary_, provided we explain exactly what is intended.


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## gabriela1

Thanks all for your input, I have found "prudent businessman"  used in an actual German company contract. I think I will use this one since the sentence refers to the behavior expected from both parties which will do business together.
Great help from everyone!! Thanks so much!


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## berndf

brian8733 said:


> Looking at this Wiki, for example, you'll see it describes the German _ordentliches Gericht_ as an _ordinary court_.


I am afraid this is a different meaning of _ordentlich_. There is 
_ordentlich_ vs. _unordentlich_ (_orderly_ vs._ not orderly_)
and
_ordentlich_ vs. _ausserordentlich_ (_ordinary_ vs._ extraordinary_)

We are looking for the former.

The term _XXX_ we are looking for ought to mean "a businessman who runs his business in an orderly manner adhering to commonly accepted professional standards". I think we should be looking for an equivalent legal term and explicitly *not* for a translation.
The term _XXX_ would typically be used to define legal obligations of a person in a certain position like: "the managing director of a company has to exercise his duties in a manner as may be expected of an _XXX_".

Note: I am too lazy to be politically correct, hence no "he/she", just "he".


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## brian

gabriela1 said:


> Thanks all for your input, I have found "prudent businessman" used in an actual German company contract. I think I will use this one since the sentence refers to the behavior expected from both parties which will do business together.
> Great help from everyone!! Thanks so much!



That's fine but it doesn't mean it's the right word. It could've been (probably was?) a non-native speaker, e.g. a German or someone like yourself, who simply translated with a dictionary. 



			
				berndf said:
			
		

> I think we should be looking for an equivalent legal term and explicitly *not* for a translation.



I completely agree. I was speaking more of the case in which we _don't_ have a (legal) equivalent... simply because I'm not sure if we do! Obviously if we do, then it's best to use that word.


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## berndf

gabriela1 said:


> Thanks all for your input, I have found "prudent businessman" *used in an actual German company contract*.


That's not so bad.


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## brian

Honestly I'm not so sure. I just have the _feeling_ that it's not a technical term. First of all, the first two Google results for "prudent businessman" are translations from German in online dictionaries. Secondly, most of the first few pages of Google results have the conditional word _would_ in them. Why? Because a word like _prudent_ talks about an ideal kind of businessman, i.e. what a prudent business man _would_ do in a given situation, and not a particular, technical kind of businessman.

I'm not sure if that makes sense, and obviously if no other native English speaker comes to the rescue with a knowledge of English legalese, then you have no option but to use _prudent_ or some other weird word. But if you have the time, I'd certainly advise waiting a little while.

Edit: I see in some of the later Google pages there are contracts that ask the undersigned to run his business, engage in transactions, etc. "as a prudent business man," as part of the terms of the contract. The idea is that he'll run the business according to the general accepted standards, laws, etc. Is that the idea?


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## gabriela1

Thank you again Brian8733 I also like to find out the best possibility. I am waiting for a better suggestion. I have until tomorrow morning to turn in the translation. 

Cheerio!!


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## Frank78

http://www.dict.cc/german-english/ordentlicher+Kaufmann.html

states that this is law terminology

http://www.phrasen.com/uebersetze,Sorgfalt-eines-ordentlichen-Kaufmanns,77505,d.html

-uses "prudent"


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## brian

Hi, I've found results like this:

- "Non-compliance with the duty to apply the due care of a _prudent businessman_: objective. criteria, subjective abilities of the managing director are..."
- "The Supplier shall perform  its duties with the due diligence of a _prudent businessman_."
- "The Purchaser holds the new corporeal object in custody for the Supplier with the diligence of a _prudent businessman_."

However, I have to say that a lot of these websites are German, so again, it may be the result of pure translation (and not a reference to a technical English translation) and/or a description of a purely German phenomenon.


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## Frank78

Maybe we should ask in the English forum. But its hard to explain what "ordentlich" is there.


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## berndf

brian8733 said:


> "The Purchaser holds the new corporeal object in custody for the Supplier with the diligence of a _prudent businessman_."


That fits nicely. "Sorgfaltspflicht eines ordentlichen Kaufmanns" is a typical use for the expression.


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## brian

berndf said:


> That fits nicely. "Sorgfaltspflicht eines ordentlichen Kaufmanns" is a typical use for the expression.



That's my point though. Do a Google search for "with the diligence of a prudent businessman" and you'll see that the majority of the results are German or Austrian websites.

In other words, this only proves that it's a common translation of the German, and it probably proves that, _if_ a technical term does exist in English, then this is not it, otherwise you'd see American, English, Spanish, Russian, etc. websites as well, don't you think?


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## Frank78

http://www.secinfo.com/dRqWm.4gDmr.b.htm

here they write: "reasonable businessman" (search for ordentlicher kaufmann its huge)

"The Assignor shall in doing so act with the care of an orderly acting merchant (Sorgfalt eines ordentlichen Kaufmannes)."

from: http://sec.edgar-online.com/solutia-inc/8-k-current-report-filing/2004/03/11/Section5.aspx

All seem to be translations.

By the way, another possibility is of course "translate it as "prudent" and them put the German phrase in brackets as its done here or make a footnote and define what an "ordentlicher Kaufmann" is. Thats very common among translators.


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## berndf

I have opened a thread in "English Only"


berndf said:


> We are having a problem in the German forum...


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## Ralf

The 2005 edition of the German Code of Commercial Law no longer holds a legal definition of "ordentlicher Kaufmann". What we find there instead is an "Istkaufmann" (my suggestion: factual merchant), which is by definition any individual or legal entity who operates a business in mercantile trades (no requirements as to training or qualification whatsoever). Other definitions, such as that of a "Kannkaufmann" (my suggestion: discretionary or optional merchant) or of a "Kaufmann kraft Eintragung" (my suggestion: merchant by enrolment (into the commercial register)) are principally based on the first definiton but expand the term to commercial enterprises.

Any merchant (as an individual or legal entity) can get enrolled into the commercial register but is not necessarily required to do so, unless his/her business exceeds a certain extent in terms of volume of sales, number of employees etc. These merchants often add "e. K." to their names, which stands for "eingetragener Kaufmann" (my suggestion: registered merchant). I think this could come pretty close to the term in question as a registration requires at least a completed training.

Ralf


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## Frank78

"Ein ordentlicher Kaufmann ist jeder der einen Kaufmännischen Beruf wie etwa Bürokaufmann, Finanzkaufmann gelernt hat. Wichtig ist nur das die abschliessende Prüfung vor der Industrie- und Handelskammer erfolgreich absolviert wurde"

Soll das so einfach sein?

Quelle: http://de.alinki.com/artikel/202


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## gabriela1

I'm amazed at the response this "ordentlicher Kaufmann" has generated. Thanks everyone for your input and research. I am dealing with some very inquisitive people. Thanks again!!


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## berndf

Ralf said:


> The 2005 edition of the German Code of Commercial Law no longer holds a legal definition of "ordentlicher Kaufmann".


The term is not defined but used.
Current version online: http://bundesrecht.juris.de/hgb/index.html


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## elroy

I agree with Brian about "prudent" - it simply dot not sit well with me, so it's either a weird translation from German or an obscure legal usage.  The evidence so far suggests it's the former.

Of the different suggestions already made (in both threads), I like "ethical" and "responsible," with a leaning towards the former, as it's very common to talk about "ethical behavior" in business contexts as well as things like adhering to a "code of ethics."  "Responsible" sounds a tad more casual, but probably suitable in many contexts.

Of course, in this context Gabriela might also want to consider rewording the sentence:

_The applicant is required to run his business ethically and responsibly._ (I personally don't see a problem with using two words to express the idea.)
_...to run his business in accordance with accepted business standards.
...to run his business in accordance with the Code of Ethics._

Just some ideas.  They won't all apply in this case.


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## gabriela1

Thanks for the good suggestions. I like "ethically and responsibly"


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## bh7

I found these variants:
_ordinary prudent businessman [ordentlicher Kaufmann]
ordinarily prudent businessman [ordentlicher Kaufmann]
reasonably prudent businessman
prudent businessman_

dict.cc has "prudent businessman".


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## Frank78

I think your first (now deleted post) was very good. Take a look at the thread at the English forum as well and maybe post both there to get some response.


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