# z (pronunciation)



## Wen24

Hi, everyone.

I learned the pronunciation of Polish alphabet, and how to make the sound of it in Polish words.
I have a question about the pronunciation of "z" in Polish sentences.

I learned "z" is a voiced sound in Polish words.
But *I didn't hear the voiced sound when my Polish friends introduced themselves.*

I heard the sound likes "*Jestem s Polski*", doesn't like "*Jestem z Polski*".
Is it my misheard? Or are there rules of pronouncing in Polish sentences?


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## ornityna

You have heard correctly. In Polish there are many devoicing rules. In general, all obstruents become voiceless at the end of words unless the next word starts with a voiced obstruent. Furthermore, often voiced sounds are devoiced in the neighborhood of other voiceless sounds. In your example, the _z_ is pronounced [ s] because of the following voiceless [p]. If it were _Jestem z Danii_ 'I'm from Danemark,' the _z_ would be pronounced as written - [z].
Example:
_Kod _'code' is pronounced exactly like _kot _'cat.' However, when placed in a sentence such as _Kod dostępu_ 'access code,' the _d_ surfaces as voiced [d]. This does not work for _Kot dostępu_ 'access cat' (whatever this means), since in 'cat' the _t_ is always voiceless.


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## Wen24

ornityna said:


> You have heard correctly. In Polish there are many devoicing rules. In general, all obstruents become voiceless at the end of words unless the next word starts with a voiced obstruent. Furthermore, often voiced sounds are devoiced in the neighborhood of other voiceless sounds. In your example, the _z_ is pronounced [ s] because of the following voiceless [p]. If it were _Jestem z Danii_ 'I'm from Danemark,' the _z_ would be pronounced as written - [z].
> Example:
> _Kod _'code' is pronounced exactly like _kot _'cat.' However, when placed in a sentence such as _Kod dostępu_ 'access code,' the _d_ surfaces as voiced [d]. This does not work for _Kot dostępu_ 'access cat' (whatever this means), since in 'cat' the _t_ is always voiceless.



Wa!!! That's really cool. especially kod dostępu and kot dostępu, that's really easy for me to understand.
Thank you very much.


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## Ben Jamin

ornityna said:


> You have heard correctly. In Polish there are many devoicing rules. In general, all obstruents become voiceless at the end of words unless the next word starts with a voiced obstruent. Furthermore, often voiced sounds are devoiced in the neighborhood of other voiceless sounds. In your example, the _z_ is pronounced [ s] because of the following voiceless [p]. If it were _Jestem z Danii_ 'I'm from Danemark,' the _z_ would be pronounced as written - [z].
> Example:
> _Kod _'code' is pronounced exactly like _kot _'cat.' However, when placed in a sentence such as _Kod dostępu_ 'access code,' the _d_ surfaces as voiced [d]. This does not work for _Kot dostępu_ 'access cat' (whatever this means), since in 'cat' the _t_ is always voiceless.


Your last sentence is not quite accurate. Polish shows not only devoicing of voiced consonants but also voicing of unvoiced ones through assimilation to a neighbouring sound. This phenomenon is not so well signalled to foreign learners, and mostly ignored by the natives, but it exists. 
Thus , you may as well hear "kot dostępu "  pronounced as "koddostępu".


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## MB

ornityna said:


> _Kod _'code' is pronounced exactly like _kot _'cat.'


 Not always, though. There are a good many people that pronounce the "kod" with a strong _d_, not _t_. And I'm talking of them pronouncing it that way even when the word stays alone and not in any collocation as, "Kod dostępu", where the strong _d_ is even more commonly used.


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## jasio

szymbert said:


> Not always, though. There are a good many people that pronounce the "kod" with a strong _d_, not _t_.


It's called hypercorrectness, I suppose. 

PS. 'd' is 'voiced', not 'strong'.


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## MB

We might want to agree to disagree on its being hypercorrectness...

Well, I called the d strong meaning it's very noticeable and powerful, and to correct me on that one may be a bit of that hypercorrectness of yours, I'm afraid.


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## Wen24

szymbert said:


> Not always, though. There are a good many people that pronounce the "kod" with a strong _d_, not _t_. And I'm talking of them pronouncing it that way even when the word stays alone and not in any collocation as, "Kod dostępu", where the strong _d_ is even more commonly used.


Thank you for your comment.

But please don't guess the meaning out of context.

Ornityna said "In general, all obstruents become voiceless at the end of words unless the next word starts with a voiced obstruent. Furthermore, often voiced sounds are devoiced in the neighborhood of other voiceless sounds. ......
Example:
_Kod _'code' is pronounced exactly like _kot _'cat.' "

So Ornityna was talking the same thing with you.


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## MB

Wen24 said:


> Example:
> _Kod _'code' is pronounced exactly like _kot _'cat.' "


 And that is what I don't agree on.


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## Wen24

szymbert said:


> And that is what I don't agree on.


Ok, if you can fix this sentence, what if your sentence?


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## tewlwolow

jasio said:


> It's called hypercorrectness, I suppose.
> 
> PS. 'd' is 'voiced', not 'strong'.



That's not hyper-correctness, but so called "krakowsko-poznańska" pronunciation. Since you're from Warsaw, you're most likely to hear far more devoicing, even when an obstruent is followed or preceded by a vowel (which would "logically" voice it). It's a rapidly changing issue, and the youth (sadly!) lose the aforementioned voiced pronunciation in favour of "general Polish", but generally Western Poles would say, for instance, /bradojca/, while the "Easterners" would go for /bratojca/ (when the phrase is "brat ojca", of course). I freak out whenever somebody says "chlep", instead of "chleb"...

So in this case, most users would pronounce "_kod_" as "_kot"_, but not in Kraków or Poznań - vaguely speaking.

As a sidenote, since I strongly object to classyfing my _gwara_ as something either super-correct or incorrect, I hereby present you the utmost voicing example in Poznań, when from _truskawki_ we've got... _drzuzgowgi _.

And another curious issue: some people from Eastern Poland actually have a genuine problem with voiced rhymes (final syllables). My friend from around Lublin was actually unable to discern the difference between English /bɜ:d/ and /bɜ:t/. Interesting!


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## Ben Jamin

tewlwolow said:


> I freak out whenever somebody says "chlep", instead of "chleb"...


It's strange. I have never heard people saying "chleB, not "chleP"


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## Wen24

I'm curious if there is a standard of Polish pronunciation in schools?


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## jasio

Wen24 said:


> I'm curious if there is a standard of Polish pronunciation in schools?


Polish is rather unified compared to the other languages. Only a few dialects are difficult to understand for outsiders, and when general Polish is spoken, regional differences in pronunciation typically are very easy to cope with, at least for the native speakers. In some regions indeed authorities and teachers forced using general Polish at schools and punished pupils for speaking a dialect, but I believe it was mainly shortly after WWII on areas with significant German influences before the war. Nowadays is the TV is the equalizer.


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## Wen24

jasio said:


> Polish is rather unified compared to the other languages. Only a few dialects are difficult to understand for outsiders, and when general Polish is spoken, regional differences in pronunciation typically are very easy to cope with, at least for the native speakers. In some regions indeed authorities and teachers forced using general Polish at schools and punished pupils for speaking a dialect, but I believe it was mainly shortly after WWII on areas with significant German influences before the war. Nowadays is the TV is the equalizer.


Aha, I see. Thank you.


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## tewlwolow

Ben Jamin said:


> It's strange. I have never heard people saying "chleB, not "chleP"



Go to Poznań, seek out an old man and go for it  Of course the fact that "b" resides at the very end of the phrase, its full voicing would require a vowel. We do not pronounce it as "_chleb*y*_", it's just not "p". To my ears, the Eastern "_chlep_" is almost aspirated. 



jasio said:


> Polish is rather unified compared to the other languages. Only a few dialects are difficult to understand for outsiders, and when general Polish is spoken, regional differences in pronunciation typically are very easy to cope with, at least for the native speakers. In some regions indeed authorities and teachers forced using general Polish at schools and punished pupils for speaking a dialect, but I believe it was mainly shortly after WWII on areas with significant German influences before the war. Nowadays is the TV is the equalizer.



That is quite right. Whether we like it or not, the Warsaw neo-speech (as opposed to Warsaw dialect, which is a different thing) is the most widespread pronunciation you'll hear.


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