# jak + biernik / dopełniacz ; accusative / genitive



## Angstschreeuw

Hey, I've came across some different sentences and I'd like to know which are right and why.
1. Nie traktuj mnie jako dziecko
2. Nie traktuj mnie jako dziecka
3. Nie widzę siebie jako szczęśliwiej dziewczyny
4. Nie widzę siebie jako szczęśliwą dziewczynę

The english wiktionary says that jako carries the same case as the noun it modifies, but I doubt that's 100% true because the sentences are negated.

Z góry dziękuję wam!


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## zaffy

1 almost ok. not 'jako' but 'jak'
2. incorrect
3. incorrect
4. ok


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## Angstschreeuw

What's the difference between jak and jako?


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## zaffy

can't really explain, eg.:

jako królowa - as a queen, 
jak królowa - like a queen


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## Gochna

zaffy said:


> 1 almost ok. not 'jako' but 'jak'
> 2. incorrect
> 3. incorrect
> 4. ok



I respectfully disagree.

For me it would be:
1. Nie traktuj mnie jako dziecko - Incorrect
2. Nie traktuj mnie jak*o* dziecka - Incorrect, but easily corrected by removing the "o" - Nie traktuj mnie jak dziecka (_Nie traktuj mnie jak idiotki _is a sentence I hear quite often, so I'm quite certain of the case here  ) 
3. Nie widzę siebie jako szczęśliw*i*ej dziewczyny - Incorrect, but easily corrected by removing the "i" - Nie widzę siebie jako szczęśliwej dziewczyny
4. Nie widzę siebie jako szczęśliwą dziewczynę - Incorrect



Angstschreeuw said:


> (...) but I doubt that's 100% true because the sentences are negated.



The way I see it, you are totally right.

I would say: "Traktujesz mnie jak dziecko", but, "Nie traktuj jej jak dziecka, ma juz 16 lat".

And: "Widzę siebie jako właścicielkę dużej firmy", but "Nie widzę siebie jako sekretarki prezesa".

As for the difference between "jak" and "jako", I have no clue how to explain it, I'll let you know if I find any helpful explanation!


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## zaffy

1. Gochna, 'Nie traktuj mnie jak dzieck*a*'  ???? With all due respect,  no one will say so. People will say 'Nie traktuj mnie jak dziecko'. Also, people will say 'Nie traktuj mnie jak idiotk*ę*' , not 'Nie traktuj mnie jak idiotk*i*' - So we need the accusative form here. Widzę kogo co? dziecko, idiotkę, lekarza, psa, rzecz etc. 'Nie traktuj mnie jak psa', 'Nie traktuj mnie jak rzecz'

Unless you use the plural form. 'Nie traktuj mnie jak lekarzy', 'Nie traktuje mnie jak idiotki'. However, the plural form is not natural here at all.


4. The fourth sentence is correct. You need the accusative form here.  ' Nie widzę siebie jako szczęśliwą dziewczynę' , 'Nie widzę siebie jako weterynarza'  Accusative - Widzę kogo co? weterynarza, dziewczynę etc.


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## Lorenc

Angstschreeuw said:


> Hey, I've came across some different sentences and I'd like to know which are right and why.
> 1. Nie traktuj mnie jako dziecko
> 2. Nie traktuj mnie jako dziecka
> [...]
> The english wiktionary says that jako carries the same case as the noun it modifies, but I doubt that's 100% true because the sentences are negated.



Hello, have a look at this thread - Choice of genitive vs accusative - concerning the choice between genitive and accusative in long sentences containing _nie. _In short, my understanding is that there may be oscillations in usage the farther the noun is from the particle _nie_.  I did a search on the national corpus of Polish (NKJP), a large collection of texts in Polish. I searched the full corpus, which includes not only published books, magazines and newspapers but also posts on internet forums. Searching for "nie traktuj mnie" results in 35 matches. Of these, 22 are in the form "nie traktuj mnie jak..."; there are two repetitions, which leaves us 20 matches. Of these 5 are in the form '_nie traktuj mnie jak + genitive_',  6 are in the form '_nie traktuj mnie jak + accusative_' and for the remaning 9 we can't tell for sure just by looking at the ending because they are all masculine virile nouns which have genitive=accusative. I'd be inclided to say they are all accusative forms. They are (in the order given by NKJP):
*Nie traktuj mnie...*
1. jak dziecka_ (like a child)_
2. jak wroga _(like an enemy)_
3. jak dziecko_ (like a child)_
4. jak wyroczni_ (like an authority)_
5. jak spamera (like a spammer)
6. jak nienormalnego _(like a nutter)_
7. jak wariata _(like a madman)_
8. jak nauczyciela _(like a teacher)_
9. jak wędrownego sprzedawcę sznurówek _(like an itinerant salesman of shoelaces)_
10. jak blondynkę _(like a blonde)_
11. jak idiotki _(like an idiot - woman speaking)_
12. jak uczniaka _(like a schoolboy)_
13. jak imbecyla _(like an imbecile)_
14. jak idiotę _(like an idiot - man speaking)_
15. jak dziwkę _(like a whore)_
16. jak nowicjusza _(like a novice)_
17. jak matołka _(like a dimwit)_
18. jak drogi ucieczki _(as an escape route)_
19. jak kontraku który zrywasz kiedy dzień masz gorszy  _(as a contract which you can break off when you have a bad day)_
20. jak jakąś szczeniarę _(like some sort of snot-nosed kid)_

The first example quoted, 'nie traktuj mnie jak dziecka' comes from a 2009 book, Kuźnia głupców by Ewa Siarkiewicz. My impression is that for masculine virile nouns in this kind of structure one definitely uses the accusative (jak idiotę, jak wroga). For feminine nouns both accusative and genitive seem to be in use (e.g. google gives many matches both for '...jak idiotki' and '...jak idiotkę'). I couldn't find other examples with neuter nouns apart from 'dziecko/dziecka'


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## Gochna

Well, I must say I'm quite puzzled.
From among the examples you provide, I would tend to say that 3, 10, 14, 15 sound wrong to my ears (I would go with dziecka, blondynki, idioty, dziwki). Surprisingly, 20 sounds OK, but changing it into genitive doesn't bother me either.

I'm thinking... regional differences?

PS - It was bothering me so I checked with another Polish native speaker and he agreed with me when it comes to "dziecka" and "idiotki". For #20, he believes that only genitive is right. For the record, I come from Lodz, he's from Elblag.


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## zaffy

To me:
1.  wrong -should be like dziecko
2. ok
3. ok
4. wrong - should be like wyrocznię
5. ok
6. ok
7. ok
8.ok
9. ok
10. ok
11. wrong, should be idiotkę
12. ok
13. ok
14. ok
15. ok
16. ok
17. ok
18. wrong - drogę ucieczki
19 ok
20 ok


ps. I just asked my wife to finish a sentence with 'an idiot' in the feminine form. I said: 'Nie traktuje mnie jak........' and she finished 'idiotkę'

As I said, no one will ever say 'jak idiotki' here in the south of Poland. If I heard such a form, I would think this is not a native speaker of Polish or someone not educated well enough. Clearly enough, to me at least, all of the phrases need the accusative form and this would crazy and illogical if some needed the genetive one.


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## rickymut

the following is quoted from the book "polish a comprehensive grammar"

Objects  of  the  preposition  jako  ‘as,’ may  also  be  used  in  cases  other
than the nominative case. With the preposition  jako  ‘as,’ both sides of
the construction are  in  the same case.

Przed wojnb dziadek <n o m> pracował  jako notariusz<n o m>.
‘Before  the war, grandfather worked as a notary.’
Znali go<a c c>  jako notariusza<a c c>.
‘They knew him as a notary.’

When using jako ‘as,’ one subject is in the same case as the other implied
subject. In the sentences below, profesor ‘a professor’ does not disclose
the  gender  identity of  the  subject; miała  informs us  about  the  gender
identity and number of the subject. Because two clauses share the same
subject,  the subject  is she, not he, or  they.

Jako profesor <n o m>, miała <n o m> prawo do urlopu macierzyhskiego.
‘As a professor,  [she] was entitled  to maternity  leave.’
Dobiegnie do mety  jako pierwsza <n o m f e m s g>.
‘[She] will  finish  [as]  first.’

The object  in  comparative  constructions with  jak  ‘like, as’  remains  in
the nominative regardless of other changes  in  the sentence.

Piotr  jest głodny <NOM>  jak wilk <NOM>.
‘Piotr  is very hungry.’  [lit. as hungry as a wolf ]
Wyglbdasz na głodnego <ACC/GEN>  jak wilk <NOM>.
‘You  look very hungry.’


so the first one should be "Nie traktuj mnie jak dziecko" as zaffy did.
the second one is incorrect
as for which one between 3 and 4 is correct, it depends on the case of "siebie", the normal treatment is to take "siebie" as genitive because here the accusitive-requiring verb "widzę" is negated, if this is the case, then 3 is correct with the drop of the misspelling of "i"


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## rickymut

as for the difference between them, jak means as in terms of "in the capacity,  as being a role", jako means as in terms of "like, smiliar to...", 

jako królowa - as a queen, as being a queen, as being the role of a queen.
jak królowa - like a queen, not a queen, just (act,etc.) like a queen.

this is my understanding.


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## zaffy

rickymut, it's simply not possible that the second one is not correct. What would be the correct version? 'Nie traktuj mnie jak wroga' sounds perfect and I'm 10000% sure it is.


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## rickymut

i reread the four sentences above and come to realise that firstly we should decide which word between jak and jako should be used in the sentence, and secondly whether the usage of jak or jako comply with the rule of polish grammar. the general rules r that jak always governs the nominative case no matter what case the previous counterpart is while the case which jako governs should agree with the case of the previous counterpart.

so according to the principle above, we come to the four sentences. 
the first one should be "Nie traktuj mnie jak dziecko", don't treat me as a child.
the second one is grammatically correct, mnie is genitive case and dziecka is genitive case too. but i am not sure whether jako is suitble or not here. don't treat me as being a child? it seems ok also. when it comes to the two (the first and second) sentences, i grow again to be confused about the difference between jak and jako.


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## Lorenc

zaffy said:


> As I said, no one will ever say 'jak idiotki' here in the south of Poland. If I heard such a form, I would think this is not a native speaker of Polish or someone not educated well enough.




For what it's worth I asked a Polish friend of mine (a schoolteacher from near Cracow) for her opinion and she prefers the forms with genitive ‘nie traktuj mnie jak dziecka’ and ‘nie traktuj mnie jak idiotki’ over ‘...jak dziecko’ and ‘...jak idiotkę’. However, she also didn’t object to ‘nie traktuj mnie jak blondynkę’. Overall, apart from the dziecko/dziecka, she said all my 20 examples sounded ok. So I think it is safe to say that usage is mixed and both genitive and accusative are used (by different people for the same word or by the same person for different words). Am I right to assume that if we leave out the initial ‘nie’ (e.g., ‘traktuj mnie jak idiotę!’, perhaps said sarcastically) then accusative is the only choice for everybody?


This thread was also good occasion for me to revise the difference between _jako_ and _jak_, which I sometimes find confusing. I hope to do something useful for other Polish learners by reporting examples and giving some personal comments. Examples are from the excellent PWN-Oxford English-Polish dictionary [PWN-O] and a few more from the Słownik Języka Polskiego PWN [SJP] and the Słownik Kościuszkowski [Koś].


The short explanation is that ‘jako’ translates English ‘as’ in sentences like ‘I work as a doctor’   or  ‘it could be used as evidence against him’; ‘jak’ translates English ‘like’ (=similarly to) in sentences like ‘to run like the wind’, ‘to work like a beaver’. Perhaps I find it slightly confusing because in my native Italian both of these structure use the same conjuction, ‘come’.

Here’s a more detailed discussion. The main uses of `jako' are:

1. _(in reference to people)_ 'in the capacity of (doctor/adviser/manager/friend/...); as a (doctor/adviser/manager/friend/...)'

2. _(in reference to people) _'at the time when I/you/he (etc) was a (child/old man/...); as a (child/old man/...)'

3. _(in reference to things)_ `as (specifying how something is regarded, described, treated, used)’


Case 1. 'in the capacity of'

In this usage _jako_ is most often followed by the name of a profession (jako dziennikarz, polityk...) or a family or personal relation (jako ojciec, jako brat, jako przyjaciel)


*często się go radzono jako cenionego fachowca i eksperta.* [SJP] _He was often consulted as a highly regarded specialist and expert._
*bywał u nich jako przyjaciel domu.* [SJP] _He used to visit them as a family friend._
*jako chory jesteś na szczególnych prawach.* [SJP] _As a sick person you enjoy special rights._
*mówię do ciebie jako twój ojciec *_I am speaking to you as your father._ [Koś]
*jako lekarz uważam, że... *in my capacity as a doctor, I believe that... [PWN-O]
*zasłynął jako aktor komediowy *he was famous as a comedy actor [PWN-O]
*występował w procesie jako tłumacz *he took part in the trial as an interpreter [PWN-O]
*premier uczestniczył w uroczystości jako osoba prywatna *the Prime Minister attended the ceremony in a private capacity [PWN-O]
*to go dyskwalifikuje jako polityka/wychowawcę/ojca *_that disqualifies him as a politician/teacher/father _[PWN-O]
*zrobić karierę jako wydawca/jako dziennikarz *_to have a career as a publisher/as a journalist _[PWN-O]
*jest skończony jako bokser *_he’s finished as a boxer_ [PWN-O]
*sprawdzić się jako nauczyciel/opiekunka do dzieci *_to turn out to be a good teacher/baby sitter _[PWN-O]
*ujawnił się jako zwolennik reform/utalentowany negocjator *_he emerged as a reformist/an adept negotiator _[PWN-O]
*jako kolejnego gościa mam zaszczyt powitać...* _as my next guest, I have the honour to welcome..._ [PWN-O]
*wyobrażasz sobie (je)go/siebie jako staruszka?* _can you imagine him/yourself as an old man?_ [PWN-O]

`jako’ is also used together with ordinal numbers in structures of the kind _ktoś zrobił coś jako pierwszy, jako drugi... _which in English translated without ‘as’: _someone was the first, second, ... to do something _or _someone did something first, second..._

*jako pierwszy zabrał głos delegat Rosji* _the Russian delegate was the first to speak _[PWN-O]


Case 2. 'at the time when I/you/he/... was':

*nauczył się francuskiego jako dziecko *_he learnt French when he was a child _[PWN-O]

Case 3. 'as':

*tkanina ta może z powodzeniem być używana jako narzuta* _the fabric can well be used as a bedspread_ _/throw_ [PWN-O]
*przemówienie odebrano jako zapowiedź politycznych zmian *_the speech was construed as heralding political changes  _[PWN-O]
*służyć jako forum wymiany poglądów *_to act as a forum for exchanging ideas_ [PWN-O]
*film odczytywano jako alegorię zniewolenia *_the film was read as an allegory of bondage _[PWN-O]
*wojsko jako gwarant nienaruszalności naszych granic *_the army as a guarantor of the inviolability of our borders _[PWN-O]
*interpretować przepis jako niezgodny z konstytucją *_to interpret a regulation as unconstitutional  _[PWN-O]
*język jako narzędzie komunikacji między ludźmi *_language as a means of communication between people _[PWN-O]
*jego wystąpienie potraktowano jako próbę nacisku* _his statement was seen as an attempt to exert pressure_ [PWN-O]


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## zaffy

Lorenc said:


> For what it's worth I asked a Polish friend of mine (a schoolteacher from near Cracow) for her opinion and she prefers the forms with genitive ‘nie traktuj mnie jak dziecka’ and ‘nie traktuj mnie jak idiotki’ over ‘...jak dziecko’ and ‘...jak idiotkę’. However, she also didn’t object to ‘nie traktuj mnie jak blondynkę’. Overall, apart from the dziecko/dziecka, she said all my 20 examples sounded ok.



Interestingly enough,  I work in a high school in Cracow as a teacher too, and it was today that I asked a few teachers (including a teacher of Polish and a priest   ) the same questions. All of them used the accusative form only and rejected the genetive just like I did.


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## rickymut

1. Nie traktuj mnie jak dziecko    
2. Nie traktuj mnie jako dziecka  

what's the difference between them in terms of connotation?


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## zaffy

no difference, just a grammar issue


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## Gochna

Lorenc said:


> For what it's worth I asked a Polish friend of mine (a schoolteacher from near Cracow) for her opinion and she prefers the forms with genitive ‘nie traktuj mnie jak dziecka’ and ‘nie traktuj mnie jak idiotki’ over ‘...jak dziecko’ and ‘...jak idiotkę’. However, she also didn’t object to ‘nie traktuj mnie jak blondynkę’. Overall, apart from the dziecko/dziecka, she said all my 20 examples sounded ok. So I think it is safe to say that usage is mixed and both genitive and accusative are used (by different people for the same word or by the same person for different words). Am I right to assume that if we leave out the initial ‘nie’ (e.g., ‘traktuj mnie jak idiotę!’, perhaps said sarcastically) then accusative is the only choice for everybody?



Yes, the accusative is the only choice in an affirmative sentence.

Just to be clear, I've never said that the genitive would be right in affirmative. I maintain that, to my ears, with the verb "traktowac jak", what follows is a noun in its accusative form for an affirmative sentence, and in genitive form after a negative "nie traktuj mnie jak".  
So: 
1. Traktuj mnie jak dziecko / księżniczkę / wyrocznię
2. Nie traktuj mnie jak dziecka / księżniczki / wyroczni


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## zaffy

Gochna, I consulted the thing with a Polish teacher today and she confirmed your words. You are right, I was wrong, so I apologize.

Accusative in an affirmative sentence and genetive in a negative one.


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## Gochna

Thank you Zaffy! I'm happy it's been cleared up!


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## marco_2

Przyznam, że spotykałem czasem ludzi (raczej średniego i starszego pokolenia), którzy po czasowniku zaprzeczonym używali biernika, ale zawsze przypisywałem to wpływowi języka rosyjskiego, w którym już od XIX wieku istnieje pewne rozchwianie w użyciu biernika i dopełniacza w takiej pozycji. Dziś norma dopuszcza u nich oba warianty, czasem z drobną zmianą znaczenia (np. я не принял этого решения /dopełniacz/ - я не принял это решение /biernik/ - w polskim tylko _Nie podjąłem tej decyzji_ /dopełniacz/, bo czasownik zaprzeczony).


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## Angstschreeuw

It is interesting that I only could find the accusative form for this sentence:
Nie traktuj mnie jak powietrze.
And not: Nie traktuj mnie jak powietrza.

But, I only could find the genitive form for this sentence: 
Nie traktuj mnie jak kontraktu
And not: Nie traktuj mnie jak kontrakt

Basically in these sentences you are saying:
Nie traktuj mnie jakbym był powietrzem.
Nie traktuj mnie jak traktujesz powietrze.

Nie traktuj mnie jakbym był kontraktem
Nie traktuj mnie jak traktujesz kontrakt.

So speaking of this, shouldn't the accusative always be used in this kind of sentences? Because the "jak" in the second part of the sentence signifies something affirmative: jak traktujesz kontrakt.​


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## marco_2

I can't imagine such a situation when someone would say: _Nie traktuj mnie jak kontraktu. _You can say e.g. _Nie traktuj naszej przyjaźni / miłości / naszego związku jak kontraktu. _And if someone said *_Nie traktuj mnie jak kontrakt* _I would rather think it means: _Nie traktuj mnie jak kontrakt traktuje mnie, _which doesn't make sense. So it doesn't sound good.


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