# ومن بينها بيت كبير



## dgwp

I would like some advice regarding the correct use of cases in a sentence such as the following, which I have invented to illustrate my point:

أرى ثلاثة بيوت ومنها بيت كبير

Should it be "baytin kabirin" or "baytun kabirun"?


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## elroy

dgwp said:


> to illustrate my point


 What _is_ your point?  What aspect of declension are you struggling with?


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## dgwp

Basically, does  بيت كبير  form an separate (equational) sentence with منها and hence go in the nominative case ("baytun kabirun"), or does it follow بيوت and go in the genitive case ("baytin kabirin")? Sorry if I am using western grammatical terminology, but I don't know how to express this using Arabic terminology.


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## elroy

I would use من بينها, not منها, but the second part would in fact be its own nominal sentence: ومن بينها بيتٌ كبيرٌ.


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## dgwp

Thanks, that's exactly what I was hoping to find out.


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## Matat

Another correct option would be أرى ثلاثة بيوت ومن بينها بيتاً كبيراً, but this would slightly change the meaning where the second phrase would no longer necessarily be in the affirmative, but from the perspective of the viewer.


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## elroy

Matat said:


> where the second phrase would no longer necessarily be in the affirmative, but from the perspective of the viewer.


 I'm not sure what you mean by this but the extremely slight difference in nuance is:

أرى ثلاثة بيوت ومن بينها بيتٌ كبيرٌ: _I see three houses, and one of them is large._
أرى ثلاثة بيوت ومن بينها بيتًا كبيرًا: _I see three houses, one of which is large. _

Is this what you meant?


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## Matat

That wasn't what I was thinking. Rather,

أرى ثلاث بيوت ومن بينها بيتٌ كبيرٌ = I see three houses. Among the three houses, one is large.
أرى ثلاث بيوت ومن بينها بيتاً كبيراً = I see three houses. I see that among the three houses, one is large.

In the first, the writer is stating that the house being large is a fact. In the second, he/she is stating that they see that the house is large, which opens up the possibility (however small) that this could merely be what he/she sees and that the house may not actually be large.

It's not a huge difference in terms of the practical reading of the two sentences, but there is a difference in nuance.


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## elroy

Matat said:


> In the second, he/she is stating that they see that house being large, which opens up possibility (however small) that this could merely be what he/she sees and the house may not actually be large.


 Hm, I don't think that's a possible reading.  If you strip the sentence down to the relevant parts, you're left with أرى بيتًا كبيرًا, which is just "I see a big house."  The sentence أرى البيتَ كبيرًا, on the other hand, does lend itself to your reading.

Of course, if we want to be technical, anytime we say we "see" something we are really only communicating what our perception is, and we could always be wrong.  But there's nothing about the sentence أرى بيتًا كبيرًا that makes mistaken perception more likely or anything like that.  Furthermore, you can say the same thing about the first sentence; just because you believe the house is big doesn't mean it actually is.


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## Matat

In the second sentence, بيتاً is معطوف على ثلاث بيوت and من بينها is متعلق ببيتاً and كبيراً is an adjective. It is as if one was to repeat the أرى.
أرى ثلاث بيوت وأرى من بينها بيتاً كبيراً



elroy said:


> Of course, if we want to be technical, anytime we say we "see" something we are really only communicating what our perception is, and we could always be wrong. But there's nothing about the sentence أرى بيتًا كبيرًا that makes mistaken perception more likely or anything like that. Furthermore, you can say the same thing about the first sentence; just because you believe the house is big doesn't mean it actually is.



The author can state an idea as a fact and be wrong, but the difference would be in how forceful they are in stating that idea. Whether I say "Water has nine hydrogen atoms" or "I think water has nine hydrogen atoms" I'd be wrong, but in the former I'm stating it as if it is a fact and being more forceful about it. In the latter, I'm opening up the possibility - however big or small - that I may be wrong. The same thing can be applied to the true statements "Water has two hydrogen atoms" and "I think water has two hydrogen atoms". I'm correct either way, but in the former I'm slightly more forceful about it being a fact. This is what I meant by the difference in nuance between ومن بينها بيتٌ كبيرٌ and ومن بينها بيتاً كبيراً.

As I mentioned though, from a practical reading of this, one would consider these sentences to have the same overall meaning, but if we were to get into the nuances of the two sentences, we could conclude that from the grammar, one is more forceful than the other.


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## elroy

I understand your point (and understood it the first time ), but I don't see a difference in forcefulness between the two, just as I don't see a difference in forcefulness between "I see three houses and one is big" and "I see a big house" in English.  As I said, أرى البيتَ كبيرًا would in fact attenuate the forcefulness, as would "I see the house as big" in English.


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## Matat

elroy said:


> just as I don't see a difference in forcefulness between "I see three houses and one is big" and "I see a big house" in English.


I don't see a difference in forcefulness between those two sentences either, but I do see a slight difference in forcefulness between "I see a big house" and "There is a big house", which is how I would analogously compare the two different declensions.


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## elroy

But the Arabic sentence isn't saying "There is a big house."  It's saying "One of them is big" (من بينها بيتٌ كبيرٌ).


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## Matat

Yes. "One of them is big" (ومن بينها بيتٌ كبيرٌ) in comparison to "I see that one of them is big" (ومن بينها بيتاً كبيراً). To my ears, the former sounds more forceful than the latter.


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## elroy

Matat said:


> "I see that one of them is big" (ومن بينها بيتاً كبيراً)


 This is not what the Arabic means.  It means "I see, among them, a big house."

I think I've realized what the issue is.  For your reading ("I see that one of them is big"), the noun has to be definite: 

For example:

أرى أحدها كبيرًا
أرى أن أحدها كبيرٌ
أرى أحدها على أنه كبيرٌ
(cf. أرى البيتَ كبيرًا, which I mentioned earlier)

Your reading is not possible with an indefinite noun (أرى بيتًا كبيرًا). من بينها doesn't affect this; it's just telling us that the big house is one of the three houses and not a fourth one.


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## Matat

elroy said:


> This is not what the Arabic means. It means "I see, among them, a big house."


I think you are missing my point. I based my translation of ومنها بيتاً كبيراً as "I see that one of them is big" on your translation of ومنها بيتٌ كبيرٌ as "One of them is big". It is not a translation I accept, but based on your translation of the nominal sentence, that's what the analogous translation of the verbal sentence would be.

However, if you translate the verbal sentence ومنها بيتاً كبيراً as "I see, among them, a big house", then the analogous translation of the nominal sentence ومنها بيتٌ كبيرٌ would be "Among them is a big house", and once again, the nominal sentence sounds much more forceful.


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## elroy

The English translations are irrelevant.  There is no difference in forcefulness between the _Arabic _sentences, as I've amply demonstrated.  I am aware that you will most likely not accept this, and that's okay.  This wouldn't be the first time.   I don't think I have anything else to add.


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## Matat

Yes, it's not about the English translations. The comparison of the English translations I was trying to make was based on your earlier comment (post #11) where you were stating you saw no difference in forcefulness in the Arabic sentences just as you saw no difference in the two English sentences you wrote. The issue with that was that I didn't find the sentences you wrote to be analogous to the different nuances represented the two Arabic sentences, and that's the only reason I was translating the sentences into English. Based on your translation of one of the two sentences, I made the analogous translation of the other.



elroy said:


> There is no difference in forcefulness between the _Arabic _sentences, as I've amply demonstrated.


I don't know what part of your comments you're referring to, but we'll agree to disagree.


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