# emphatic consonant + tanwiin



## Bilbo Baggins

Hi everyone:
I have a question about the MSA noun case endings - the double fatha, double damma, and double kasra. My question is, are these endings effected by emphatic consonants? If a word ends in an emphatic consonant, does that consonant emphaticize the vowel portion of the grammatical ending and change it's sound the way it normally would anywhere else in a word.

Thanks!


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## Taalib

I would guess that an emphatic consonant would slightly change the pronunciation of that final case marking--or at least for the fatHa, just like it does for the long alif.  

This is strictly a guess: I have not heard anybody actually sound out the final case endings on nouns in many years, since my first Arabic courses.  I'm thinking back, and the only time in the last few years I've heard them sounded out to begin with are inside mosques during sermons and Quranic passages... I can't even think of a proper television program on satellite TV where the speakers did this.


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## Bilbo Baggins

Really? If you don´t write or speak the endings how do you know what capacity a noun serves in? Does Arabic rely on word order for this type of thing? I thought that the whole point of these inflections was to convey a noun´s, adjective´s, etc. function in the sentence. (Subject, DO, IO, prepositional object, etc.) Thanks.


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## Taalib

Perhaps a native Arabic speaker can give you a better perspective from "within" the language.  As a Westerner who is trained in it, I can say that initially, I was indeed puzzled why in all but perhaps a literal handful of contexts, no Arabs spoke with the case endings fully pronounced and inflected. But after spending considerable time immersed in the language, it's clear that adding them all in does not make the speaking style wrong... just extremely formal and stilted, not suited for every day use.  Like forcing somebody to speak in Shakespearean English all the time: not incorrect, just... ultra-formal and almost comedic.

We know what capacity the noun serves through semantic context and structural word order, same as in languages that also lack case markers (e.g., English).  But then again, why would we need to know such fine points of speech?  When I speak English to my friends, I'm sure they don't sit back and wonder if the noun in my conjunctural clause was actually a functional object of the initial subject or else an adverbial descriptor of my predicate apposite, etc.    Anyway, the inflections serve numerous grammatical purposes but they are not necessary to read, write, speak, or understand Modern Standard Arabic.  For me, they were like training wheels: good to know at the beginning to understanding the complexities of Arabic grammar, but not necessary at all once you master the basics.


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## Bilbo Baggins

----Thanks!-----


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## LeCaire

well i didnt understand the question much , is it that you are asking about the use of the double fatha ?? and what is emphatic consonant ??

 for "Taalib" they are used, who told you they aren't ?? the word shukran شكراً has double fatha for example


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## Bilbo Baggins

No, no. I know what an emphatic consonant is. I was asking about how an emphatic consonant affects the vowel portion of the double kasra, damma, and fatha grammatical endings. Are they emphaticized was my question. You bring up something interesting, though. You´re saying that they are used. Are they used in everyday conversation and writing in your dialect?


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## LeCaire

Some words like this are used in everyday conversation in the Egyptian dialect and they are fos7a too فصحى : ahlan wa sahlan أهلاً و سهلاً , shukran شكراً , mathalan مثلاً , bedayatan بدايةً , ekraman lak إكراماً لك . also in the written language offcourse they are used because these papers and books are written in MSA.


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## Bilbo Baggins

Thanks for the information.


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## Taalib

I think we are talking about two different things here.

LeCaire, I understand your point that in fusHa we have fixed expressions, adverbial phrases, and words that require double fatHa as a matter of both grammar and convention: shukran (thank you); badalan min (instead of); abadan (never); etc.  These sorts of words are relatively stable in many Arabic dialects.

But the original poster is speaking explicitly about _nouns_ and the inflection of those nouns as a grammatical construct in the sentence.  Hence if I want to say, "I am a teacher," my point was that it would be strange to hear somebody say, in all but the most extreme circumstances, the Arabic "انا معلمٌ" as "Ana mu3allimun" rather than "Ana mu3allim."  I'm no expert on Egyptian dialect, but I'm pretty sure you would not walk about the streets of Cairo and hear people saying "un" after every indefinite noun in the nomination (مرفوع) case.  You certainly do not hear this in Amman or Casablanca or Dubai or Kuwait!


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## Bilbo Baggins

Taalib, what about in writing? If I'm _writing_ in everyday MSA, do I omit these case endings along with the other vocalizations? Thanks!


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## Taalib

When handwriting and you're not in an ultra-formal setting or rewriting a holy scripture, you do not need to write the final case endings for nouns, adjectives, and verbs, as well as the vocalized short vowels that mark each consonant throughout the word.  Except, in my opinion:

1) When you have a final double fatHa at the end of a noun to denote an indefinite accusative case, which then requires a supporting final alif, I think it's okay to write the double fatHa.  Personal preference here.

2) When the short vowels within the word need to be written in order to clarify the meaning of that word against another word that matches its spelling, but differs in the short vowels.  One example is when we write conjugated Arabic verbs in the passive voice, which for some verbal paradigms look exactly the same as the active voice conjugations, except for shifts in the short vowels.  Print media (e.g., newspapers) follow this convention, for obvious reason--can't communicate if the meaning of the word is clouded with ambiguity!

There are probably a handful of other exceptional cases, but these come to my mind immediately.


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## Bilbo Baggins

Thanks a bunch.


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## Talib

Essentially, the tanween are only written and spoken in MSA when necessary, and omitted the rest of the time.


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## ayed

Bilbo Baggins said:


> Are they used in everyday conversation and writing in your dialect?



In Badawi Najdi dialect, ( I ) we always utter(retain) the"tanween" in our daily speech.
Examples:
1.Anaa shift rajjali(n) Tweeli(n) wi..."( I saw a tall man and ...")(No tanween at the end of word you stop at.However, if you continue, there is tanween)
*أنا شفت رجالن طويلن و*
2.Anaa shift rajaali(n) Tweel.("I saw a tall man.")
*أنا شفت رجالن طويل*
It is existent in poetry .Instead of writing " two kasras" , it is written in the letter "N".


**Fact : Badawi Najdi dialect always tends to " kasrah"even if it is " a nominative case" , it is uttered in kasra.


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## Taalib

Ayed, that is is very, very interesting. I had no idea the Badawi dialect in Najd featured that tanween--or that the case endings tend towards the kasra.

To others: do you know or recall dialects that also feature this recurrent tanween on indefinite nouns?


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