# piscina sounds like [piθtina] ?



## Residente Calle 13

Am I hearing things are do some people in Spain pronounce the word *piscina *as *[piθtina]* ?

In other words, does it come out as if it were spelled *piztina*?


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## ailama

No, if you say "piztina" you will sound illiterate.


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## Residente Calle 13

Thanks, ailama. Sounds like saying it that way is a no=no.

I guess I'll rephrase the question, then. Does anybody in Spain, including people who sound illiterate, say *piztina *for *piscina*?


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## diegodbs

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> Thanks, ailama. Sounds like saying it that way is a no=no.
> 
> I guess I'll rephrase the question, then. Does anybody in Spain, including people who sound illiterate, say *piztina *for *piscina*?


 
Nunca he oído esa clase de pronunciación.
La pronunciación en España es *[pisθina],*excepto en zonas de "seseo".


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## lazarus1907

diegodbs said:
			
		

> Nunca he oído esa clase de pronunciación.
> La pronunciación en España es *[pisθina],*excepto en zonas de "seseo".



Estoy de acuerdo.

De hecho, digo yo que en cualquier caso pronunciarían [pi:sina] o [pi:θina] (o algo parecido) para compensar por la pérdida de la "s".


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## Residente Calle 13

I might just be hearing it wrong.


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## jagonro

Yo creo que oíste bien, hay gente que lo dice. Sin ir más lejos, el otro día se lo oí decir a mi sobrina, pero claro, ella tiene 4 años y cecea 

Fuera bromas, sí que hay gente que dice "pistina" en vez de "piscina", yo lo he oído. Pero bajo ningún concepto yo te recomendaría que lo dijeses así, no es correcto en absoluto y da imagen de analfabeto.


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## Residente Calle 13

I have seen "pistina" written on Spanish web pages but the language was not Spanish. I think it was "Asturianu" or something like that.


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## mariposita

I've never heard piθtina, but the θ sound is slightly different in Spanish than in American English--it's interdental rather than dental. Maybe the (very) slight different is making your ears deceive you...


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## Residente Calle 13

mariposita said:
			
		

> I've never heard piθtina, but the θ sound is slightly different in Spanish than in American English--it's interdental rather than dental. Maybe the (very) slight different is making your ears deceive you...



If you _do _hear it, let us know, eh?  I think the Spanish *S* might be throwing me off too. I hear the *th *in *thigh *for *θ*. It's not an accent I have a great deal of experience with so...


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## mariposita

The /s/ is also different, you're right. While an American /s/ pronounced with the tongue behind the front teeth (dental), while the spanish /s/ is pronounced with the tongue on the ridge behind the front teeth (aveolar). And the American /s/ is more sibilant (hissy!).


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## adremd

I must add that this has probably been one of the hardest words for me to pronounce.  I mean, pis-sina isn't hard but pis-cina (ceceo) is really difficult.  Would people mind uploading sample sentences "ceceo-ing" with the word piscina?!??!?!  

Like, 
La piscina está fría. 
¿Vas a acompañarme al piscina?  
No bañar en la piscina, étc.


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## diegodbs

adremd said:
			
		

> I must add that this has probably been one of the hardest words for me to pronounce. I mean, pis-sina isn't hard but pis-cina (ceceo) is really difficult. Would people mind uploading sample sentences "ceceo-ing" with the word piscina?!??!?!
> 
> Like,
> La piscina está fría.
> ¿Vas a acompañarme al piscina?
> No bañar en la piscina, étc.


 
Un castellano no cecea, porque cecear es pronunciar la *s* como *c/z.*
Y nosotros pronunciamos s como s, y c/z como c (th en la palabra think)

*Piscina*


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## Residente Calle 13

adremd said:
			
		

> I must add that this has probably been one of the hardest words for me to pronounce.  I mean, pis-sina isn't hard but pis-cina (ceceo) is really difficult.


Alot of people use the word _*ceceo *_for  how Northern Spaniards pronounce *c*, *s* and *z*. In case you didn't know that's not the dictionary's def for the word, take a look at this message. _*Ceceo *_the way I see it used is not quite accurate but I think usage is going to defeat my argument eventually. If _seseo _is saying *s* then ceceo must be saying *θ*... 

I would like to hear those clips too but I don't think you _have to_ pronounce Spanish the way they do in N and C Spain. (I would just say _*pisina *_and move on to more pressing issues). It helps your spelling but other than that I don't see any real advantage. Of course, if your from N or C Spain, that's a different story altogether...or if you just love the way it sounds...


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## diegodbs

He añadido un fichero de sonido en mi correo anterior. Pero ya que en inglés existe ese sonido en palabras como think, thumb, etc. No tendría que ser difícil de pronunciar para una persona de habla inglesa.
Para un francés o un alemán sí que es difícil porque no existe ese sonido ni en francés ni en alemán.

Intenta decir (piss+thin+a) en inglés, y será una buena aproximación.


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## adremd

Residente, I do love the Spaniard pronunciation.  I can't explain it.  Just like I love the Brazilian variation of Portuguese over Portuguese-Portuguese. 

A Diego, piscina es un trabalenguas para mí.  Como para los hispanohablantes, decir palabras como spaghetti, special, (s+consonante) son difícil de pronunciar, no?  No obstante, la práctica lleva a la perfección.  Y vuelvo a intentarlo hasta el miércoles.  Gracias por el fichero de nuevo.

Y gracias a los dos por ilustrarme sobre lo que significan seseo y ceceo.


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## Residente Calle 13

adremd said:
			
		

> Residente, I do love the Spaniard pronunciation.  I can't explain it.


You don't have to. Love is the best reason to do just about anything! Don't tell them I said this, but girls from North and Central Spain drive me crazy with their *c*s and *z*s. Hahaha.


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## Residente Calle 13

Diego, the error is definitely on _*my *_side. If there were people who really were saying [piθtina] I'm afraid I would n't be able to tell them apart, without paying incredibly close attetion, from the people who say [pisθina]. 

Thanks for posting up that sound file.


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## broud

Hello,

Residente, I can't hear the wav now but I wouldn't worry too much about that. The group "sci" seems not very easy to pronounce for Spanish speakers, kids don't know how to pronounce it and older people do strange things. Some of them try to "join" s and θ while other people  remark the silabant sound - Is it possible that you're interpreting that "more silabant" feature as "voicing" ? I must admit that I can hardly distinguish the voiced s from the voiceless one ...


 Btw, most Spanish (from Spain) distinguish between  /s/ and /θ/.
Not doing it is a characteristic very specific to Andalusia (and the Canary Islands, although there're andalusians who ) not so extended as other meridional features.


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## Jhorer Brishti

Residente Calle 13, I definitely know what you're talking about. Initially I had the same problem since I thought the "th" pronunciation of the "z"s and the "c"s before soft vowels sounded very much like the Spanish T. I'm more interested in Latin American Spanish so this didn't really concern me so much except for the fact that I still had to acquire the "t" pronunciation. The difference is quite subtle indeed even though I'm sure it's easily registered by Spanish speakers(same as how aspirated consonants are not differentiated by English speakers). The spanish T is pronounced with the tongue placed slightly above your upper teeth and then flicked off(clearly marked from the english T even though most books like to state that it's the same..maybe because their target audience is only(primarily) interested in making themselves understood....) Here's a free website that might help you detect the difference:http://www.studyspanish.com/pronunciation/index.htm. Remember Practice is key and listening to songs always helps as well..


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## diegodbs

> I'm sure it's easily registered by Spanish speakers


 
Hola Jhorer,
Sí, tienes razón, es un sonido que identifica a una persona de habla inglesa cuando habla español. Sabemos que un francés o un italiano no pronuncia las t como una persona de habla inglesa. Es un sonido que distinguimos perfectamente como perteneciente al inglés.


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## Residente Calle 13

Jhorer Brishti said:
			
		

> Remember Practice is key and listening to songs always helps as well..



Thanks so much. I really don't care to pronounce piscina in any other way than [pisina]. So I'm motivated by curiosity more than concern


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## San

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> Am I hearing things are do some people in Spain pronounce the word *piscina *as *[piθtina]* ?
> 
> In other words, does it come out as if it were spelled *piztina*?


Yo digo "pihzina" ( aspirando la "s" ), pero no suena ninguna "t". También hay mucha gente que omite directamente la "s" y dice "pizina" o "pisina" ( los que sesean ) pero nunca he oído que suene ninguna "t" por ningún sitio, te has debido de confundir o no has transcrito bien el sonido.


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## San

adremd said:
			
		

> A Diego, piscina es un trabalenguas para mí. Como para los hispanohablantes, decir palabras como spaghetti, special, (s+consonante) son difícil de pronunciar, no? No obstante, la práctica lleva a la perfección. Y vuelvo a intentarlo hasta el miércoles. Gracias por el fichero de nuevo.
> 
> Y gracias a los dos por ilustrarme sobre lo que significan seseo y ceceo.


Umm, no creo que sea de lo más complicado "special". Al menos para mí lo más difícil es la "t" de "a lot of", "waiting", "written", etc. Es la música del inglés como han dicho por ahí  Además parece que en cada sitio la pronuncian de una manera


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## DaleC

mariposita said:
			
		

> The /s/ is also different, you're right. While an American /s/ pronounced with the tongue behind the front teeth (dental), while the spanish /s/ is pronounced with the tongue on the ridge behind the front teeth (aveolar). And the American /s/ is more sibilant (hissy!).


 When doing anatomical phonetics, one must specify both the lower and the upper articulator. 

American and British /s/ is not dental, but lamino-alveolar. The rim of the tongue does not rest near just the "front" teeth, but the *lower* front teeth. The Andalusian Spanish /s/ (which is the /s/ for 90 percent of the Spanish speakers in the Americas) is also lamino-alveolar. The difference is that English language /s/ has a deep hollow midway along the tongue. That's why the English language /s/ is "breathier" and more bass pitched. 

Castilian /s/ is not just alveolar, but apico-alveolar. 

Referring to a previous post in this thread: American /θ/ is NOT dental, but interdental, like the Castilian /θ/. The anatomical difference between them is not their primary point of articulation, but the shape of the lamina of the tongue. The American sound has the lamina bunched, almost vertical, creating a narrow channel between tongue and the backs of the upper front teeth. The Castilian sound has the lamina more nearly flat, level, with the result that the empty space behind the backs of the upper front teeth extends horizontally to the velum. This is why the Castilian sound is less "breathy" (less fricative). 

A survey done a few years ago found that the American /θ/ is interdental, but the British /θ/ is dental. More precisely, 90 percent of Americans in the study sample spoke interdentally, 10 percent dentally, while the reverse percentages held for the British speakers.


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## mariposita

Interesting, my American /θ/ is not at all interdental--it's very clearly dental. And I speak a really standard-sounding dialect.  My husband also has a dental /θ/. He's from the south and has a substantially different accent when it comes to many other sounds... I don't have access to many Americans where I am, but I wonder if we of the supposed 10% are subconsciously sticking together! Actually, I think that we are producing a virtually identical sound with different points of articulation... 

I remember now, when I first moved to Spain, I often didn't hear the /θ/ at all. It was odd, almost as if my brain didn't recognize the sound and filtered it out. But this hasn't happened to me in a long time. 

Living here as a non-native Spanish-speaking foreigner, I think it would be a mistake to sesear. It's a matter of speaking with maximum clarity and listeners here will always have more trouble understanding if you don't pronounce /θ/. I myself have to listen harder now when I'm speaking to someone with a seseo--it just feels like more context is required at times to discern certain words.


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## Residente Calle 13

mariposita said:
			
		

> Interesting, my American /θ/ is not at all interdental--it's very clearly dental. And I speak a really standard-sounding dialect.  My husband also has a dental /θ/. He's from the south and has a substantially different accent when it comes to many other sounds...



There have been many studies with show that people tend to marry people who pronounce /θ/ the way they do...just kidding.

I think what is important to remember is that what we say is only part of the equation. What do people hear is not always what people here. I keep hearing *pistina *while playing that sound file on a loop. That doesn't mean that's what's being said.

I think that if you as the average Latin American to imitate how North and Central Spain treats *s*, *ce*, *ci*, *ze*, *zi* and they will do a lousy job. I can't even sing along Camilo Sesto without screwing it up and I know the words by heart.


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## diegodbs

Hola residente,
¿de verdad no distingues el sonido de la c en el archivo sonoro?
Te juro que yo no he pronunciado "pistina".  
Es una broma.

Es cierto que las personas solemos oír los sonidos de otro idioma a través del filtro de nuestros propios sonidos. Yo seguramente oiría todas las guturales del árabe como si fueran la j en español (la del centro y norte de España, muy distinta a la andaluza o a la de América) que es la que estoy acostumbrado o oír y a pronunciar.


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## thuja

broud said:
			
		

> Hello,
> not so extended as other meridional features.



By the way, although _meridional_ and _septentrional _  can both be found in unabridged English dictionaries, I would avoid them, as they are _very obscure_ words. Stick with *southern* and *northern* if you want to be understood.


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