# הציע وضع



## Ali Smith

שלום!

I know הציע means "to spread". Does anyone know if it's cognate with the Arabic وَضَعَ?

Thanks!


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## slus

The only context I can think of הציע as "spread" is spreading bed sheets (מצעים) on one's bed.
Usually הציע means either offered or suggested.
About the etimology, the root is יצע
צ and ض are related
بيضة ביצה
ضحك צחק
But I'm not sure about the י vs. و


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## Drink

slus said:


> But I'm not sure about the י vs. و



In general, yes:

ولد ילד
ورق ירק
وعد יעד

But I don't know about this specific case.


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## Abaye

השורש _יצע _שייך לגזרת חפי"צ ולא לגזרת נפי"ו משמע היסטורית ה_יוד_ אינה מתחלפת ב_וו_ (אם כי יש לחפי"צ כמה הטיות בנוסח נפי"ו, למשל "נוצר").


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## Drink

Abaye said:


> השורש _יצע _שייך לגזרת חפי"צ ולא לגזרת נפי"ו ולכן היסטורית ה_יוד_ אינה מתחלפת ב_וו_ (אם כי יש לחפי"צ כמה הטיות בנוסח נפי"ו, למשל "נוצר").



אבל זה בגלל הצ' ולא בגלל האטימולוגיה


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## Abaye

חפי"צ איבדו _וו_ אטימולוגי בגלל ה_צדי_? לא בטוח, וקח לדוגמא את _יצא_ שהוא נפי"ו (כלומר מקורו ההיסטורי ב_וצא)._
בכל אופן, בשביל לומר שיש לשרשים מגזרת חפי"צ אטימולוגיה של _וו_ צריך למצוא דוגמא.
יש בסך הכל שמונה או תשעה שרשים כאלה שצריך לעבור עליהם.


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## Drink

לפי קליין:
י-צ-ב = و-ص-ب
י-צ-ע (= to spread, lay down) = و-ض-ع (= to lay down)
י-צ-ר = (w)-ṣ-r (באכדית)

ולשורשים י-צ-ג, י-צ-ק, י-צ-ת אין מקבילות כנראה.

ומה שאמרתי לגבי צ' זה שהאות צ' עלולה להידגש.


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## Abaye

Interesting, thanks.

Gesenius said that 4 of the חפי"צ roots are cognates of each other: יצב, יצג, יצע, יצק. I don't know how much this is agreed by modern linguists. 
H3331 - yatsa` - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon (KJV)


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## Ali Smith

Abaye: If הציג is from the root י-צ-ג shouldn't it have been הוציג? I mean, it's from הפעיל, right?


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## Drink

The whole point of the חפי"צ roots is that for whatever reason they are treated as though the י/ו assimilates like a נ.


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## WadiH

Ali Smith said:


> שלום!
> 
> I know הציע means "to spread". Does anyone know if it's cognate with the Arabic وَضَعَ?
> 
> Thanks!



I cannot read the Hebrew responses, but it looks like it might be cognate with Arabic ضوع, which means to scatter or spread.  It is used to describe the spread of scents or perfumes for example, as in the Nizar Qabbani verse أخشى عليكم ضوعة الطيوب.


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## Drink

Well הציע does really meant to scatter or spread in the sense you may have thought. It means to spread as one would spread a bedsheet over a bed. So the meaning is more like lay down a sheet.


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## WadiH

Drink said:


> Well הציע does really meant to scatter or spread in the sense you may have thought. It means to spread as one would spread a bedsheet over a bed. So the meaning is more like lay down a sheet.



If you look at the link, the range of meanings in Arabic is quite broad (it even gives the example of a bird spreading its wings), so I still think this is the most likely cognate.


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## Drink

The problem isn't the wide range of meanings of ضوع, but rather the very narrow range of meanings of הציע, which is originally restricted in meaning to beds. It just seems that the meanings of وضع are a much closer fit.

I think maybe you got overly attached to the English word "spread", but I would say the core of the meaning is laying the sheet down.

It could also be that it the word for bed from this root was a place for _people_ to lie down, and הציע is derived from that to mean make the bed.


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## WadiH

Perhaps, but as you know meanings of cognates can broaden, narrow or shift from one language to another, so the narrower meaning in Hebrew doesn't rule out that it's a cognate.  I can see a connection with the 'bed spread' or 'lie down' meaning, but I suppose others may disagree.


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## Ihsiin

Can הציע related to the root צ-ו-ע or does it have to be י-צ-ע? If the former is impossible that would tend to rule out a relation with Arabic ضوع I would think.


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## Drink

It must be יצע because of the word יצוע, for example, which appears in the Bible.

But I'm not sure that rules anything out. There are occasional metatheses of root letters between Semitic languages. One example for instance is Hebrew ṣ-w-y and Arabic w-ṣ-y.


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## WadiH

Ok I thought the Hebrew root was ts-w-'.  If it's w-ts-' then I suppose it's less likely unless there's some metathesis going on as Drink said.


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## JAN SHAR

Actually, in the Bible הציע (hiphil) means "to lie down".


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## Drink

JAN SHAR said:


> Actually, in the Bible הציע (hiphil) means "to lie down".


It means to _lay_ down, not to _lie_ down. In Hif'il. It only occurs five times so it's really not so hard to analyze. Four out of five it is referring explicitly to a material that is laid down as a bed (even if figuratively), and one time it is merely implied.


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