# Persian: to repeat



## Asadullah

What is the Persian word for "to repeat"? I always thought it was tekraar kardan, but recently I saw a dictionary that said takraar kardan instead! Could a native help me out here?


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## soheil1

some people say tekraar, some say takraar.
tekraar is preferred nowadays


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## Treaty

The original Arabic word is _takraar_ and so this pronunciation is used in dictionaries and sometimes formally. But for most people, both formal and colloquial pronunciations are _tekraar_.


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## Stranger_

In Iranian Persian, it is always "tekraar".


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## James Bates

Similarly, تعداد was ta'daad in Arabic but is often pronounced te'daad in Persian. In fact, I think it is usually pronounced te'daad, though I am not sure.


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## soheil1

You can find people saying takraar, I suppose.
And, though weird, people understand them.
The way Hashemi Rafsanjani says Nashaat.


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## James Bates

I guess spoken Persian changes the فتحة to a كسرة in a lot of words, e.g. لذّت


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## soheil1

Yes, seems so.


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## firstsoldier

Its undoubtedly tekrar in persian and saying takrar is completely odd and weird


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## soheil1

But it's used anyway


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## firstsoldier

W


soheil1 said:


> But it's used anyway


You must be a native persian speaker
Who says takrar in persian?!!!!!
I have never heard except old people like imam khomeini or as our friend said rafsanjani


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## PersoLatin

Treaty said:


> The original Arabic word is _takraar_ and so this pronunciation is used in dictionaries and sometimes formally. But for most people, both formal and colloquial pronunciations are _tekraar_.



Treaty's answer settles this.


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## Stranger_

مرا در نظامیه ادرار بود
شب و روز تلقین و تکرار بود

maraa dar nizaamey-e *e*draar bud
shab o ruz talghin o t*e*kraar bud

سعدی


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## James Bates

That's strange. One would have expected Sa'adi, a person very well-versed in Arabic, to have employed the original Arabic pronunciation.


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## fdb

Stranger_ said:


> مرا در نظامیه ادرار بود
> شب و روز تلقین و تکرار بود
> 
> maraa dar nizaamey-e *e*draar bud
> shab o ruz talghin o t*e*kraar bud
> 
> سعدی



The qāfiya is between id-*rār* and tak-*rār*. The vowel in the syllable before the qāfiya does not need to agree.


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## Alfaaz

> مرا در نظامیه ادرار بود
> شب و روز تلقین و تکرار بود
> 
> maraa dar nizaamey-e *e*draar bud
> shab o ruz talghin o t*e*kraar bud
> 
> سعدی


 *Question:* I'm not really familiar with prosody, but isn't the -_raar buud_ part only relevant in forming rhyme...? (For example, couldn't _guftaar_ and _takraar_ be rhymed?)**

_nizaamiyyah-e-idraar buud_
_talqiin-o-takraar buud_

**Quote from: Urdu: حيوان: Hayawaan and Haiwaan 


			
				Qureshpor said:
			
		

> ... Rhyme does not have to be total rhyme. Rhyming words in Urdu and Persian would normally be Haivaan, bayaabaan, insaan, jaan, maan, shaan etc...i.e only the -aan needs to rhyme, not the whole word.


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## firstsoldier

We are speaking about modern persian i have nothing to say about sa'adi's poems


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## Stranger_

> The qāfiya is between id-*rār* and tak-*rār*. The vowel in the syllable before the qāfiya does not need to agree.


Thank you. I did not know this.

Anyway, as firstsoldier said, no one says "takraar" in Iran except some clerics who, due to their knowledge of Arabic, might either deliberately or non-deliberately pronounce it that way.

But even in Arabic, the "tekraar" pronunciation seems to be the common one because I am sure I have never heard "takraar" in Arabic news and radio stations!


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## orgthingY

Treaty said:


> The original Arabic word is _takraar_ and so this pronunciation is used in dictionaries and sometimes formally. But for most people, both formal and colloquial pronunciations are _tekraar_.



This is false. I'm a native speaker of Arabic and I've never heard it or seen it written as takraar. 

I actually wonder where these claims come from; a lot of the pronunciaion variations in Persian are claimed to be derived from Arabic, even if this isn't actually the case.


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## Stranger_

> This is false. I'm a native speaker of Arabic and I've never heard it or seen it written as takraar.


Now this settles it.



> a lot of the pronunciaion variations in Persian are claimed to be derived from Arabic, even if this isn't actually the case.


Like what?


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## orgthingY

Stranger_ said:


> Now this settles it.
> 
> 
> Like what?



Nothing crosses my mind at the moment (Sorry! )

However, te'daad تعداد
 was also mentioned in this post. It is pronounced te'daad *not* ta'daad in Arabic. 

You may hear it clearly on Forvo, def. not "ta'daad"


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## fdb

The maṣdar of the verb karra is takrārun bi fatḥi l-kāf (thus Lisān al-ʻarab and all the classic dictionaries).


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## James Bates

orgthingY said:


> Nothing crosses my mind at the moment (Sorry! )
> 
> However, te'daad تعداد
> was also mentioned in this post. It is pronounced te'daad *not* ta'daad in Arabic.
> 
> You may hear it clearly on Forvo, def. not "ta'daad"



Hans Wehr has ta'daad, not ti'daad.


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## orgthingY

fdb said:


> The maṣdar of the verb karra is takrārun bi fatḥi l-kāf (thus Lisān al-ʻarab and all the classic dictionaries).



Oh yes, the masdar (source) is surely that; some of its derivatives such as al-karraar are pronounced with an "a". Yet, tekraar itself is with an -e, and tekraar is the loanword in Persian.


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## orgthingY

James Bates said:


> Hans Wehr has ta'daad, not ti'daad.



I've just had a quick search on the word in Arabic; surprisingly I've also found the one with fat-ha. Quite odd to be honest, the forvo recording says it the way I say it, and I've never heard it on TV or elsewhere with "a". Might be an archaic pronunciation in this case

Interesting nevertheless. 

This made me wonder whether tekraar and other loanwords are based on archaic pronunciations of Arabic words (seems possible to me as there are many currently-extinct Classical Arabic dialects and accents); though - in MSA at least - I've never heard tekraar as "takraar"


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## fdb

It is your choice. You can believe someone like Ibn Manẓūr (the author of the Lisān) and Hans Wehr, or you can believe some totally random person who has immortalised his own private version of botched Arabic on forvo. Classical Arabic العربية الفصحى is a language very well documented in classical dictionaries and grammars. “MSA” (Modern semi-literate Arabic) is something very different.


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## orgthingY

fdb said:


> It is your choice. You can believe someone like Ibn Manẓūr (the author of the Lisān) and Hans Wehr, or you can believe some totally random person who has immortalised his own private version of botched Arabic on forvo. Classical Arabic العربية الفصحى is a language very well documented in classical dictionaries and grammars. “MSA” (Modern semi-literate Arabic) is something very different.



As a Kuwaiti I can believe myself, and MSA is called Modern Standard Arabic.

Nevertheless, MSA is directly based on Classical Arabic.

Classical Arabic includes many pronunciations, different grammatical rules (there are the grammar rules of Basrah and Kufah), phrases, and expressions that are no longer in use in MSA (why? because it'd be dumb to promote such a thing in MSA).

For example, in the dialect of Tamim (iirc) in Classical Arabic, you can use "sh" instead of "ki" for females
Therefore, أحبش
instead of أحبك

But what happened? No longer in use in MSA (it is used in Colloquial Bahraini though), nobody cares about that usage, it's a thing of the past.

Nevertheless, I do not deny that this might have been an acceptable pronunciation; it probably is. It just isn't the case in MSA anymore, and this should be noted. 


- Semi-literate Arabic, seriously?


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## NielCG

I've never heard "takraar" up to now. It's completely weird!


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