# Otto/Ottonen



## Perseas

This was the name of four kings of Germany, starting in the 10th century with Otto I, the first Holy Roman emperor.
In German it has two inflected forms, "Otto" and "Ottos".
But I've also encountered the plural form "Ottonen" and the adjectiv "ottonisch" ("Ottonische Renaissance"). How can be explained that an "n" was developed in those words? Is this a phenomenon of the German language-OHG then, or did this occur maybe due to an influence of Latin? (In Latin the name is inflected  _Otto,Otto*n*is,Otto*n*i,Otto*n*em_). Thank you.


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## ahvalj

That's the original final consonant, lost in the Nom. Sg. Consider the Old High German paradigm of this kind of words: gomo - Wiktionary and further the Late Common Germanic declension: Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/gumô - Wiktionary.


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## berndf

_-(e)n_, genitive _-(e)ns_ is the traditional oblique ending of proper names in German. This ending decayed in the 19th century. In the first half of the 20th century only the genitive ending -ens had survived in Names Ending with -s in the root in order to mark the genitive, like _Klausens Haus _instead of the modern form _Klaus Haus_, where the genitive remains unmarked.

Insofar, there is no real need for an explanation. The use of the oblique form in the derived words would be sufficiently explained by the awkwardness of _*ottoisch_ and _*Ottoen_ with two clashing vowels.

Having said that, the fact that o_tt*o*nisch_ is stressed on the second _o_ suggest that the word is at least influenced by the Latinized forms you mentioned.


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## Perseas

Thank you both.


berndf said:


> The use of the oblique form in the derived words would be sufficiently explained by the awkwardness of _*ottoisch_ and _*Ottoen_ with two clashing vowels.


I guess, "n" is viewed here as an euphonic consonant, which is inserted between the two vowels.
I didn't know that. Thanks again.


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## berndf

Perseas said:


> Thank you both.
> 
> I guess, "n" is viewed here as an euphonic consonant, which is inserted between the two vowels.
> I didn't know "n" could have this function. Thanks again.


You probably know that_ -(e)n_ is the oblique ending in what is called "weak nouns" in German. The traditional oblique forms for proper names are probably derived from that declension schema.


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## Perseas

berndf said:


> You probably know that_ -(e)n_ is the oblique ending in what is called "weak nouns" in German. The traditional oblique forms for proper names are probably derived from that declension schema.


Yes, of course. Thanks a lot.


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## ahvalj

But _Otto_ itself is a bookish form: the naturally evolved modern outcome would have been *_Otte_. Likewise _*Braune_ (_Bruno_) and all Germanic feminines in _-a_ (_Bertha, Emma, Frieda_).


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## berndf

_Otto_ is a common German name. There is no "would have been" outcome. I don't quite understand what the missing MHG weakening from -o to -e has to do with the -n- infix.


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## ahvalj

berndf said:


> the fact that o_tt*o*nisch_ is stressed on the second _o_ suggest that the word is at least influenced by the Latinized forms you mentioned.


I meant that all these forms in _-o_ and _-a_ are bookish and hence had a separate life in texts different from what could be expected if they were naturally evolving in the spoken language. And yes, I don't contest that the stress in _ottonisch_ is latinized.


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## berndf

ahvalj said:


> I meant that all these forms in _-o_ and _-a_ are bookish and hence had a separate life in texts different from what could be expected if they were naturally evolving in the spoken language.


Only in the sense that 900 years ago it inhibited one single sound shift.  That doesn't make the entire name over its more than 1000 year history "bookish".


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## ahvalj

Yesterday I didn't quite understand your replies. If you mean that this _-n-_ is a rather recently added formal element aimed at enabling declension and avoiding "awkwardness" of _**ottoisch_ and _**Ottoen,_ then I disagree and reiterate that I consider these _otton- _to be the petrified Old High German forms preserved in this particular royal name due to its life in texts and, in particular, indeed, in Latin (and French) texts — in the sense that this name has always had this _-n-_ in German, over all the last 12+ centuries


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## berndf

ahvalj said:


> If you mean that this _-n-_ is a rather recently added


No I didn't mean that. The oblique-_n_ has always existed in German but we also find it in Latin derivations from the name, like in the medieval adjective _otto*n*ensis_. The akwardness of _*ottoisch_ or _*Ottoer_ has certainly prevented the Latin-influenced forms from being superseded by more regular modern derivations like in_ Staufer, Salier, Habsburger, ..._


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## Perseas

I am not aware since when the hellenized name "Όθων" is attested in sources. In Byzantines sources probably. Before opening this thread, I had assumed that the Greek '*ν*' in "Όθω*ν*" (inflection: Όθω*ν*/ος/ι/α) was a Latin influence, but given your answers, I can't be sure. It may have come directly from German (OHG) or German must have played a role anyway.


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## ahvalj

The _n_-stems were routinely adapted to the existing inflection types in all Indo-European languages in contact, e. g. Greek, Latin, Celtic, Germanic, etc. Cp. the much earlier _Stilicho__ : __Στιλίχων_ (Vandalic). The East Germanic Nom. Sg. at that period was actually _-a_ (i. e. _*Stilika_), and late Latin / early Romance even made attempts to create a separate _an_-declension for them: e. g. forms like _Totila/Totilanem_ (masculine) are attested, and even for inherited feminine words like _nonnanes_ "nuns" and names _cum Popilia Marciane _and for corresponding Germanic feminine _ā_-stems: _Bertha/Berthanem_.


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## Perseas

ahvalj said:


> The _n_-stems were routinely adapted to the existing inflection types in all Indo-European languages in contact, e. g. Greek, Latin, Celtic, Germanic, etc. Cp. the much earlier _Stilicho__ : __Στιλίχων_ (Vandalic).


Thanks a lot. The example with "Στηλίχων" (I'm more familiar with this spelling) is a very good one.


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## ahvalj

ahvalj said:


> The East Germanic Nom. Sg. at that period was actually _-a_ (i. e. _*Stilika_), and late Latin / early Romance even made attempts to create a separate _an_-declension for them: e. g. forms like _Totila/Totilanem_ (masculine) are attested, and even for inherited feminine words like _nonnanes_ "nuns" and names _cum Popilia Marciane _and for corresponding Germanic feminine _ā_-stems: _Bertha/Berthanem_.


Interestingly, this system survived and further expanded in Old French, cp. Nominative Singular : Oblique Singular _none : nonain, ante : antain, Berte : Bertain, Eve : Evain _(Old French: A Concise Handbook). Since Frankish had the Nom. Sg. _-o_ in the place of the East Germanic _-a,_ this declension type in France didn't involve masculines, for which the type _Otes : Oton_ was created, with the innovative _-s _in the Nom. Sg. (The Romance of Names), se also Le type Charles-Charlon ou Eve-Evain en ancien français - vraiment un reflet du superstrat germanique ?


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## Cossue

I think that this illustrates what ahvalj wrote: here are some Galician place names formed inside Late Latin/early Romance from East Germanic (Suebic/Gothic) names declined as -a / -anis:
Fefiñáns < villa *Faffilanis (gen.) <- Faffila (nom.)
Firmistáns < villa *Frumistanis <- Frumista
Forxás < Frogianes 1007 < villa *Froyanis <- Froya
Franqueás < villa *Frankilanis <- Frankila
Freáns < Froilanes 954 < villa *Froilanis <- Froila
Freás < villa Froilanes 1131 < villa *Froilanis <- Froila
Frollais < Froilanes 1125 < villa *Froilanis <- Froila
Goiáns < villa *Gaudilanis/Godilanis <- Gaudila/Godila
Guimaráns < villa *Guimaranis <- Uimara
Guimarás < Vimaranes 1074 < villa *Wimaranis <- Uimara
Requiáns < villa *Riquilanis <- Riquila
Requiás < Riquilanes 1024 < villa *Riquilanis <-Riquila
Sandiás < Sindilanes 934 < villa *Sindilanis <- Sinþila

References: GMH, CODOLGA, Aquén


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## berndf

Cossue said:


> Latin/early Romance from East Germanic (Suebic/Gothic) names declined as -a / -anis:


These -n-s belong Latin suffixes. In our case here, we have a convolution of both, the Germanic -_n_ ending and a Latin suffix contributing another n in the Latin adjective derivation: _Otto - Otto*n*e*n*sis_ (as in _solidus Ottoninsis _on a medieval coin) or in the Latin-derived English adjective _Otto*n*ia*n*_.


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## Cossue

berndf said:


> These -n-s belong Latin suffixes.



I can't agree. I don't know if you're implying that these derive from older -enses / -ensis (Freáns < Froilanes < **Froilanenses), but that is not the case, as -enses / -ensis evolve into -eses in Galician:
Armeses < Asmeses < *Asmenses "people from the Asma (River valley)"
Astureses < *Asturenses "people from Asturia"

The former toponyms I mentioned were studied by Georg Sachs in 1932 ("Die germanischen Orstnamen in Spanien und Portugal") and later by Joseph M. Piel and Dieter Kremer ("Hispano-Gotisches Namenbuch", 1976). These later authors wrote (page 38):


> "Die gotisch-lateinische Genetivendung -anis, zu maskulinen Namen auf -a, zeigt in der heutigen Toponomastik folgende Gestalt: ast-kast-leon. -anes, kat. -ans, gal. -ans/-ás, pg. -ães/-ãis."



It's notable that Hydatius Limicus (5th century) adapts the Germanic names he mentions to the Latin declension ("Suevi qui remanserant in extrema parte Gallaeciae, Massiliae filium nomine Maldram sibi regem constituunt."), but Isidore of Seville, a century later, already use a new mixed declension for these names ("Aera CDXXCVI, Recchiarius, Recchilanis filius, catholicus factus, succedit in regnum annis IX, accepta in conjugium Theuderedi regis Gothorum filia"). This last declension is very much what you find in local Medieval charters, for example: Riquila, Frankila, Froila, Brandila, etc.


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## berndf

Cossue said:


> I don't know if you're implying that these derive from older -enses / -ensis (Freáns < Froilanes < **Froilanenses), but that is not the case, as -enses / -ensis evolve into -eses in Galician:
> Armeses < Asmeses < *Asmenses "people from the Asma (River valley)"
> Astureses < *Asturenses "people from Asturia"


I see.


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