# Oriya-Bengali: Why do Oriya and Bengali people pronounce V as Bh



## Jianfeng

I have ever been to Orissa and West Bengal for work. I hear that the local people pronounce V as Bh (भ). This is very interesting, because I know that there is no व in Bangla Bhasha (I don't know Oriya, I guess this doesn't exist in Oriya either.) And व in Hindi is pronounced as ब in Bangla. But as I know, व in Hindi can be pronounced as both W and V, so I think V in English (or other languages) should be pronouced B in Bangla and Oriya. For eg. The English word "visa" is pronouced and written as वीज़ा (viza/wiza) in Hindi, but Oriya and Bengali people pronounce it as Bhija. So why don't they pronounce this as Bija? Does anyone know the reason? Thanks.


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## Au101

The Oriya script does indeed lack the "v" and instead, they use the letter ବ, which is "ba", the equivalent of the Devanagari ब and a modifying dot is placed in the centre of the inner circle. I am afraid I do not have a font which supports this character, but:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriya_script

Clearly shows it. However, the dot, I presume, is often left out in writing unless a specific distinction is completely necessary. One would have thought that, therefore, that the sound "ba" would be used instead, as would seem natural. I have some experience of this in Tamil, which uses a letter "p" and the modifying aaytam for the letter "f", however, it is often pronounced as "p" and the aaytam left out in writing due to ease and accent. Although, in India, this is less common and it comes down to the individual. 

The Oriya equivalent of भ (bha), however, is ଭ and I am at a loss to explain why this sound is used. It may have something to do with accent, or simply be due to dialectical inconsistencies. Certainly, English seems to insist on modifying the pronunciation of many of its loan words to suit the accents of its native speakers.


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## mutt13

While I'm far from a guru on this, I can add a little observation considering I'm native-born American married into a Bangladeshi family. I've also visited the country and had a great run with all the quirks between the two cultures and languages.

That being said, I'm leaning rather heavily on the accent itself as a primary contributing factor. It's possible there's a linguistic explanation for this, but my husband is "prone" to using +h pronunciation on foreign words. To this day, Thomas is t-h-omas; oddly, I can't think of any time that would be a *normal* pronunctation to a Bangla word, but then again, English would lean toward th-omas like "th-e". So it seems to be more of a predisposition to chose +h sounds over a single consonant.

Hopefully my choatic laymen's terms here made any sense at all


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## capsi

only reason i can say, why bengalis & orias pronounce V as Bh because , B is pronounced as 'ব ' and  V as ' ভ ', which is similar to the sound of 'Bh' in 'Bharat' [the name our country].

when you say there is no ' ব '  in bangla,its confusing because the word bangla is with  'ব ' বাংলা ; yes, there are two ' ব ' in bangla, like hindi but they are not so different in pronunciation like in hindi. if you try to learn bangla taking hindi as a base it will be very confusing and hard for you.

about the foreign words , in bangla we try to pronunce it as its original form, thats why, 'Vi-sa' is pronounced  'Bhi-ja' not 'Bhi-sa' . we dont write 'Bija' because in english 'B' & 'V'  are not pronounced similarly like in spanish, 

ex: ban / van ; banish / vanish

so while writing in bangla we will use ' ব ' for banish  and ' ভ ' for vanish


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## say-it-in-english

I think people who say V as Bh is more closer while pronouncing "V" rather than who say "व" (wa)
There is no dispute in the pronunciation for "W" in both of your languages.

So they are probably right. Check this note if you want to pronounce "V" properly so "Visa" will be "bhiजा" or "भीजा" according to the pronunciation rules below.
place your top front teeth against your bottom lip
That makes "भ" while to pronounce "व" you don't place your top front teeth against your bottom lip.
So, its a mistake when you pronounce "वीजा" however its correct to write "वीजा" because it has been written ever since. However pronunciation differs from person to person.

V v    To pronounce V, place your top front teeth against your bottom lip (as with F), but then without releasing air, vibrate your vocal cords and release your teeth from your lip.    vase, very, vital, Volvo, waver, never, river, oven, lover, wave, leave, dive, favor


Source: "say it in english "
Google for "Lesson 7: Pronouncing the English Letters"


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## Dib

This is a very old thread, but I somehow stumbled upon it, and found the topic interesting. So, trying to answer, maybe somebody will find it interesting.



Jianfeng said:


> व in Hindi is pronounced as ब in Bangla.



This is often repeated, but strictly speaking - false.

The only language whose व's are routinely made into ब in Bengali is Sanskrit (exception: as last member of consonant clusters). It just happens that many of them are shared borrowings with Hindi, which retains the व, leading to this illusion. The reason for this convention (Skt. व > B. ब) has to do with the evolution of both Bengali language and script, as well as Sanskrit education in Bengal. Otherwise, w from other languages are routinely approximated in Bengali by a diphthong/vowel sequence involving u/o, and v is approximated by "bh" (as f is approximated by "ph" - its voiceless counterpart), simply because Bengalis find them perceptually similar (or even indistinguishable). Hindi व is interpreted as a "w" by most Bengali speakers (and some of them find it confusing that Hindi speakers transliterate it by "v", thinking that names like Vivek are pronounced "bhibhek" in Hindi!), and realized accordingly when they speak Hindi or transcribe it in Bengali script, e.g. informal Kolkata-Bengali has now borrowed the Hindi expression "bhaav denaa" (give importance) as "bhao (=ভাও) deoa", while Sanskrit "bhaava" is strongly established as "bhab" (=ভাব; Bengali meaning: facial/bodily expression, or in more literary context - "essence of being"), even though in Hindi they are pronounced identically.

The same is true for English words: watt is "oaT", vat is "bhæT", wave is "oebh". The same is basically true for Persian/Arabic loanwards, though these words may have undergone some more phonetic adjustments as these are older loanwords, e.g. ochhi (trustee) < Arabic wasii (وصي).



> But as I know, व in Hindi can be pronounced as both W and V, so I think V in English (or other languages) should be pronouced B in Bangla and Oriya.



As explained above, Bengali and Oriya do not normally borrow foreign words through the intermediary of Hindi. So, the Hindi merging of foreign w and v does not necessarily take place in these languages.



> For eg. The English word "visa" is pronouced and written as वीज़ा (viza/wiza) in Hindi, but Oriya and Bengali people pronounce it as Bhija.



Actually, I have ever heard only "bhisa" in Bengali (mostly with a palatal "s", i.e. like English "sh"). The "s" is simply a spelling pronunciation, I think. People may not be aware that it is voiced in English.


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## Englishmypassion

I don't know about Bengali and Oriya, but I have observed that "v" is pronounced "bh" in Bihar, Jharkhand, and by some people in UP and Uttarakhand simply because mispronunciation is prevalent there, which is handed down by parents, elders and teachers. The Bihari language/dialect has the Hindi "wa" sound, yet they pronounce "voter" like "bhoter". The same is true of many people speaking Kumauni and Garhwali dialects, both of which have the " wa" sound, in Uttarakhand. Those Kumauni and Garhwali students who are taught English by better teachers pronounce "v" as "wa" ( I mean closer to the actual v sound) while others pronounce it as "bh".


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## Dib

Englishmypassion said:


> The Bihari language/dialect has the Hindi "wa" sound, yet they pronounce "voter" like "bhoter". The same is true of many people speaking Kumauni and Garhwali dialects, both of which have the " wa" sound, in Uttarakhand.



There is a reason why an average Western (Standard) Hindi speaker without specific training fails to distinguish (in listening) the English v and w - it's simply because they are both allophones of the same व in these dialect(s) [same reason why Bengalis fail to notice the vowel length difference, etc.] Why Biharis, Garhwalis, etc. do not have the same problem may have two separate reasons (I am just guessing here):
1) The Bihari, Garhwali, Kumauni, etc. dialects/languages may have a different allophone distribution of व, which does not cover the v-end of the spectrum. And therefore, "v" needs a different native representation, which happens to be "bh" in this case for the same reasons as Bengali.
2) The Bihari convention may simply be borrowed from Bengali, Oriya, etc. which is not improbable given the influence, Bengali used to have or maybe still has in this region, e.g. through Bengali-speaking teachers, etc. But I doubt that can be applicable to other areas like Uttarakhand.



> Those Kumauni and Garhwali students who are taught English by better teachers pronounce "v" as "wa" ( I mean closer to the actual v sound) while others pronounce it as "bh".



It is interesting that you find "w" closer to "v" than "bh". The reason I think is again your native language. But interestingly, someone before in this thread argued exactly the opposite. 



say-it-in-english said:


> I think people who say V as Bh is more closer while pronouncing "V" rather than who say "व" (wa)



Though their personal details list "English-UK" as the native language, I doubt that given the construction of this sentence. It is nevertheless an interesting observation. Personally, I do not think either "w" or "bh" pronunciation of "v" is better per se. Even after many years of exposure to Hindi-speakers' merging of v and w, I still get stumped by it from time to time, but it's pretty rare. I am pretty sure Hindi-speakers, on the other hand, find the "bh" absolutely horrendous. I am not here to judge on that.

On a lighter note, as long as we are on the topic of representing foreign fricatives in our languages, if "thin" can be थिन, "they" can be "दे", Persian "xush" can be खुश or Ghalat can be गलत, I guess, the most consistent representation of "fin" should be "फिन" (which is actually common enough) and "vein" should be "बेन" ... Seems like we all got it wrong.


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## Englishmypassion

Yes, Dib, you are right we all have got it wrong. Say-it-inEnglish said that "bh" is closer to "v" than "wa", but I think he/she ignored the sound and just focused on the way it is pronounced-- lip movement, position of upper teeth, etc. I think the closeness of sound is more important. Yes, Kumauni and Garhwali have the Hindi " wa" sound, which you say doesn't exist in Bengali, yet some people pronounced "v" as "bh", while others who study/studied in comparatively better, especially private, schools pronounce " v" as "wa".


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## Dib

Englishmypassion said:


> Say-it-inEnglish said that "bh" is closer to "v" than "wa", but I think he/she ignored the sound and just focused on the way it is pronounced-- lip movement, position of upper teeth, etc. I think the closeness of sound is more important.



The problem is there is no general objective way of determining what is closer in sound. As for me, I - just like say-it-in-english - do personally find "bh" closer to "v" than I find "w". But, I also know, it is just because my native Bengali phonology biases me towards it. The same is happening to the Standard Hindi speakers, when they find the distinction between w and v insignificant. It's just native language bias. It's totally subjective. It's on the same order that native English speakers normally don't notice the difference between our "gh" and "g", etc. unless they are specially trained.



> Yes, Kumauni and Garhwali have the Hindi " wa" sound, which you say doesn't exist in Bengali



Actually a direct comparison between Hindi and Bengali is somewhat complicated here, as their phonologies are worlds apart on this point. There are sounds in Bengali which would be heard as "w" by Hindi speakers, e.g. "jao" = go! (it's one syllable, unlike its Hindi equivalent jaao = 2 syllables) is as if Hindi "jaaw" and "phau" = lagniappe (again, one syllable) is as if Hindi phaaw. However, this "w" is not really an independent consonant in Bengali phonology, but is restricted as the off-glide of falling diphthongs. What I wrote before about using rising diphthongs is inaccurate (I'll rectify that post). So, when the w occurs between vowels or at the end of the word, Bengali simply clubs it to the previous syllable and uses a diphthong ending in w to represent it. However at the beginning of words this strategy fails, and then Bengali replaces the w with a full o/u, increasing the syllable count by 1, because Bengali has no "w" in that position, e.g. "oaTar" (=water) in Bengali accented English is 3 syllables.

So, at the phonetic level, Bengali does have a "w" - actually two different "w"-s (the phau-one and the jao-one) - but only as the second element of falling diphthongs. In Bengali phonology they behave like allophones of u and o, respectively, leading to the use of those vowels also at word initial position to approximate "w". None of these Bengali w-s, however, has an allophone overlapping with v. As a result, v in English sounds very different to us Bengali speakers from w, which sounds similar to u/o to us. This is where Hindi differs again. Since Hindi has one phoneme which has allophones ranging over the w~v spectrum, but u and o remain separate, Hindi speakers find w and v very similar.



> while others who study/studied in comparatively better, especially private, schools pronounce " v" as "wa".



That is simply a social-prestige thing, mainstreaming the accent of "standard" Hindi speakers also in English as spoken in the Hindi belt. It will be an interesting study to find out whether native English speakers have tougher time understanding the w-guys or the bh-guys, if everything else was equal. It is unlikely though that everything else will be equal, because as you mentioned the "bh" is limited to the students of "worse" schools, who are likely to also miss out on other phonetic details of English (e.g. f, z) compared to their peers in the "better" schools.


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## Wolverine9

Dib said:


> So, the Hindi merging of foreign w and v does not necessarily take place in these languages.



This is fascinating.  I had thought w/v merging or confusion was pan-Indian or at least pan-Indo-Aryan.  So, it doesn't occur among Bengali or Oriya speakers.  I assume it doesn't happen among Assamese speakers either due to their proximity to Bengali.  It obviously is common among those who speak Hindi, Urdu, or Punjabi.  What about Gujarati and Marathi speakers?


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## tonyspeed

v and b are historically interchanged in Pakritic languages across all of North India. You can still see traces of this in Hindi: bintii/vintii

In older days there were more cases:


H بير बीर _bīr_ [S. वीर], adj. & s.m. Heroic, brave. mighty, powerful;—hero, brave man, warrior, champion (syn. _bahādur_); brother; a class of spirits employed by a magician to injure or molest anyone;

H بست बस्तु _bastu_, बस्त _bast_ [S. वस्तु], s.f. Thing, matter, article, commodity, substance, wealth, property, means; things, goods, chattels, baggage


V was somewhat reintroduced into Hindi in the post-Prakritic era.


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## mundiya

^_ bīr _and _bastu _are still used, though perhaps less commonly now because education spreads the original v form.

bintii/vintii is interesting because in this case bintii is the original.


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## Dib

Wolverine9 said:


> This is fascinating.  I had thought w/v merging or confusion was pan-Indian or at least pan-Indo-Aryan.  So, it doesn't occur among Bengali or Oriya speakers.  I assume it doesn't happen among Assamese speakers either due to their proximity to Bengali.  It obviously is common among those who speak Hindi, Urdu, or Punjabi.  What about Gujarati and Marathi speakers?



As far as I know, the v/w merging occurs also among Marathi and Gujarati speakers. I have a personal anecdote here. I was once in Mumbai in my late teens, but before my Hindi-speaking days. I was listening to a Marathi-speaking professor lecturing in English. He kept on talking about what sounded to me like "bheu" (note, that to my Bengali-tuned ears, "v" sounds (or at least, sounded at that time) like "bh" and "w" sounds like a vowel - u/o) to my utter confusion. It was after a while that I realised, he meant "wave".


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## Wolverine9

Dib said:


> As far as I know, the v/w merging occurs also among Marathi and Gujarati speakers. I have a personal anecdote here. I was once in Mumbai in my late teens, but before my Hindi-speaking days. I was listening to a Marathi-speaking professor lecturing in English. He kept on talking about what sounded to me like "bheu" (note, that to my Bengali-tuned ears, "v" sounds (or at least, sounded at that time) like "bh" and "w" sounds like a vowel - u/o) to my utter confusion. It was after a while that I realised, he meant "wave".



I think you have the wrong word in mind.  If v sounded like bh, and w sounded like u/o, then it was probably something like view > bheu instead of wave > bheu.


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## Dib

Wolverine9 said:


> I think you have the wrong word in mind.  If v sounded like bh, and w sounded like u/o, then it was probably something like view > bheu instead of wave > bheu.


 
Yes and no. No, because 'view' would sound like 'bhiu', not 'bheu'. Yes, because the prof was indeed likely saying something like /ve:w/ for "wave". Hence the confusion, and also the relevance of the anecdote to the topic whether Marathi speakers also merge/confuse v and w. The context was actually quite clear that it had to be "wave". It was a lecture on physics, and he was talking about something like wave-propagation or wave-form or some such thing (don't remember exactly any more), and the word was used quite frequently.

----

EDIT: I must qualify my comment on the Marathi & Gujarati speakers merging v/w. What I wrote is my personal observation as an outsider; but there may actually be some distinction that I simply fail to hear. In Marathi, English v and wh are often transliterated with व्ह, while w is always transliterated with व| So, it is possible that that there is a distinction, that I simply don't hear or mishear.


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## tarkshya

I am taking a guess here, but isn't the name Saurav Ganguly really spoken as "Saurabh" Ganguly?


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## Dib

tarkshya said:


> I am taking a guess here, but isn't the name Saurav Ganguly really spoken as "Saurabh" Ganguly?


 
Yes!! Exactly, as far as the pronunciation of the "v" is concerned.

But the vowels and the "s" are also different. So, something more like "shourɔbh"  (ɔ = like English awe).


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## tarkshya

Dib said:


> Yes!! Exactly, as far as the pronunciation of the "v" is concerned.
> ...



So an interesting side effect of this v/bh confusion is that Hindi media will regularly transliterate Saurav Ganguly's name as "सौरव गांगुली ", and that's how most Hindi speakers will pronounce his name. i.e Saurav (सौरव ) instead of Saurabh (सौरभ ). So even though Hindi speakers are perfectly capable of correctly pronounce his name as "Saurabh", they end up mispronouncing it inadvertently. Few realize that this name is plain old Saurabh which is commonly found all over India.


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## Dib

tarkshya said:


> So an interesting side effect of this v/bh confusion is that Hindi media will regularly transliterate Saurav Ganguly's name as "सौरव गांगुली ", and that's how most Hindi speakers will pronounce his name. i.e Saurav (सौरव ) instead of Saurabh (सौरभ ). So even though Hindi speakers are perfectly capable of correctly pronounce his name as "Saurabh", they end up mispronouncing it inadvertently.


 
Indeed. The reverse also happens in the Bengali media, of course. So, Gavaskar is usually গাভাস্কার ("gabhaskar", "a" is equivalent to Hindi "aa" in quality but shorter), though a phonetically closer form গাওস্কার ("gaoskar") also exists. This bh~u/o variation makes it possible to determine which words/names came into Bengali through the intermediary of English (possibly only as visual spelling), and which were adopted "as heard" from other Indians, as English v > Bengali ভ/bh, but (non-Sanskrit) Indian व becomes Bengali u/o.



> Few realize that this name is plain old Saurabh which is commonly found all over India.


 
I never realized before, that it was all that confusing, but now that you mention it, it makes sense.


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## Wolverine9

The name _saurav _is the opposite of what the OP is describing.  Why is the Sanskrit "bh" of _saurabha _being transliterated as "v" in Bengali?  Is it written _saurav _in Bengali but pronounced _shourɔbh_?


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## Dib

Wolverine9 said:


> The name _saurav _is the opposite of what the OP is describing.  Why is the Sanskrit "bh" of _saurabha _being transliterated as "v" in Bengali?  Is it written _saurav _in Bengali but pronounced _shourɔbh_?



The Bengali spelling is exactly same as in Hindi or Sanskrit (সৌরভ, सौरभ). But, as explained before, the English "v"-sound is pronounced as Bengali "bh" by average Bengalis - even in their English. In other words, as far as Bengalis are concerned, the Roman "v"-letter represents the Indic "bh" sound. As a result, the Indic "bh" sound is transcribed as both "v" and "bh" in Roman script indiscriminately by Bengalis. Many people use almost exclusively the first one (v), maybe because it is shorter (than bh). Presumably, "bh" is more popular with people with relatively more exposure to either the pan-Indian customs, or more native-like English pronunciations (so that they use a fricative "v" themselves in English) - though, this is just my speculation. So the name in question is usually transcribed by Bengalis as Sourav or Sourabh in the Roman script. Note also the "ou" instead of pan-Indian "au". tarkshya, in his original post, made a mistake there.

The same happens also with Roman "f" and "ph", which are also used interchangeably - at least in West Bengal, even though Western Bengali typically has only the "ph"-sound (while Eastern Bengali often has only the "f"-sound). To some extent this also happens with "s" and "sh", but there is a tendency to transcribe one of the Bengali s-letters as "s" and the other two as "sh" in the Roman script, in conformance with the rest of India, though there is no such distinction in Bengali pronunciation itself, and the tendency is violated often enough. Corollary: it is a part of typical Bengali-accented English that "f" is pronounced as Indic "ph" (at least in West Bengal), and "s" is pronounced as "sh". Hence the joke that the Bengalis during the British Raj sang "God shave the queen".


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## Wolverine9

Thanks for the great explanation, Dib.


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## Wolverine9

Does the Bengali ভ differ in pronunciation from Hindi भ? I don't think that's been discussed yet.


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## Dib

Wolverine9 said:


> Does the Bengali ভ differ in pronunciation from Hindi भ? I don't think that's been discussed yet.



There may be some differences at the level of allophones, but I am really not aware of anything specific. I suspect my ভ has a shorter closure time (maybe even lacks a proper closure) between vowels than word-initially. I don't know what it is like for native Hindi speakers (or other Bengali speakers, for that matter).


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## SagirAhmed

Jianfeng said:


> I have ever been to Orissa and West Bengal for work. I hear that the local people pronounce V as Bh (भ). This is very interesting, because I know that there is no व in Bangla Bhasha (I don't know Oriya, I guess this doesn't exist in Oriya either.) And व in Hindi is pronounced as ब in Bangla. But as I know, व in Hindi can be pronounced as both W and V, so I think V in English (or other languages) should be pronouced B in Bangla and Oriya. For eg. The English word "visa" is pronouced and written as वीज़ा (viza/wiza) in Hindi, but Oriya and Bengali people pronounce it as Bhija. So why don't they pronounce this as Bija? Does anyone know the reason? Thanks.


In Assamese, the letter "व" is present, it is "ৱ" (wɔbɔ). ৱ is pronounced as "w/b(rarely)". But Assamese people pronounce V as BH. The word VISA is "ভিছা(bhisa)" in Assamese. For foreign words with V, ভ(bʱɔ) is used, while for sanskrit origin (or indian origin) words with V, ৱ(wɔbɔ) and ব(bɔ) is used.
ex. English: Vatican city 
Assamese: ভেটিকান চিটি (bhetikan siti)
Bengali: ভ্যাটিকান সিটি (bhyatikan siti)
Hindi: वेटिकन सिटी (vetikan sitī)

Hindi: विवेक (vivek)
Assamese: বিবেক (bibek)
Bengali: বিবেক (bibek)

Hindi: आवरण (aavaran)
Assamese: আৱৰণ (awɔɹɔn) (the pronunciation of ɹ is same with english r)
Bengali: আবরণ (abɔrɔn)


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