# Limitations in the scope of the French-English forum



## Wordsmyth

Unless I've missed something, I get the impression that the French-English forum has a 'gap' that isn't suffered by other forums.

If you want to ask a question on Vocabulary or Grammar, you can post it in French or in English. If you want to post on other aspects of the French language (accents, dialects, learning methods, etc, etc), you can do it in French ("Français seulement" forum) ... *but not in English* (and there are people who are interested in such aspects of the language, but who aren't up to posting in French). Similarly francophones can't post in French on English non-vocab/non-grammar topics.

This constraint doesn't exist for Español-Français, nor for Italiano-Français, because they're not subdivided into just Vocab & Grammar. So you can ask non-vocab, non-grammar questions in Spanish or Italian or French.

Nor does it exist in the forums of other languages. In the German forum, for example, you can discuss any aspect of the German language, posting in any language you like. Ditto for Portuguese, Hebrew ... and all the others, as far as I can see. 

Perhaps the majority of language questions do fit into the vocab/grammar categories, but from time to time we see threads deleted because they're outside the scope of these specific forums. Perhaps they could be moved rather than deleted, if there were somewhere to move them to ... or perhaps they'd be posted there in the first place! 

Such a 'somewhere' might also avoid headaches for people wanting to discuss (whether posting in English or French) a text or expression with both vocabulary and grammar elements. At present you have to run the risk of such a thread being 'out of scope' of one or the other of the sub-forums; or split it into two separate threads with fragmented discussions, possibly by two different sets of foreros. I see I'm not the first to think of this : p=3135674&postcount=20

So maybe there's a case for a "*French-English (other topics)*" sub-forum, to give the French forums the same Liberté, Égalité ... as the other languages.

(It wouldn't necessarily be the biggest sub-forum in WR, but then I see there's one sub-forum with only 168 threads in four years, so that shouldn't be an obstacle).

What do others think? Am I overstating the issue, or is there an unsatisfied need here? Look forward to your comments.

Ws


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## Jana337

I don't know much about how my French colleagues handle the grammar/vocabulary issue so I won't delve into it but let me explain the difference between French and German.

You are not quite right about Français Seulement being unique. Sólo Español and Solo Italiano have exactly the same policy. These forums are not necessarily defined as forums *about *the respective languages but as forums *in *the respective languages. The idea is that all discussions there should be accessible to anyone who speaks that language but not other languages.

And there was an additional motive in some cases. I was a moderator in the Italian-English forum when Solo Italiano was born. At that time we were concerned with something that many learners of Italian disliked: although they asked (in IT-EN) in Italian and were able to receive answers in it, many Italian natives switched to English in order to practice their skills. But learners of Italian naturally wanted to practice their Italian. When we created Solo Italiano, where English is not allowed, it helped a bit. For this reason, it is perfectly possible that you find the same topic in the bilingual as well as in the monolingual forum.

The above is the policy is practiced in big forums - Spanish, French and Italian (I hope I didn't misrepresent anything as I don't moderate in any of them). We thought that the other forums were too small to be fragmented in mono- and bilingual sections. Due to the huge number of Spanish natives and learners here, we were able to create Portuguese-Spanish and German-Spanish. As regards the German forum, I suppose we could create German-English, German Only and perhaps German-Italian, too. But German-French, for example, is too rare a combination to sustain a stand-alone forum. If we had DE-EN, DE-ES, DE, DE-IT, we would have to move DE-FR threads in Other Languages, which would be absurd considering the traffic in the German forum. Instead, we add language abbreviations like (IT) or (FR) in thread titles if the thread is not exclusively in German and/or English. As of now, the first German page has one (IT) and one (FR), i.e. two threads in fifty. This is perfectly manageable. It would be a nightmare in big forums.

I hope this perspective helps you understand that the approach you described is consistent with the overall policy of the forum.


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## Wordsmyth

Jana,

Thanks a lot for your comments. As you said, you didn't delve into the grammar/vocabulary issue, which was the main point of my post; but just to clarify what I meant in some of the areas you referred to:



Jana337 said:


> You are not quite right about Français Seulement being unique. Sólo Español and Solo Italiano have exactly the same policy. [...]


 
I wasn't actually suggesting that _Français Seulement_ was unique. Remember my issue was with non-vocabulary/non-grammar discussions (which I'll call "NonVG" for brevity). The point is that you can discuss French NonVG in French in _Français Seulement_; (and yes, of course you can discuss Spanish NonVG in Spanish in _Sólo Español_; and Italian NonVG in Italian in _Solo Italiano_)_._ But you can't discuss French NonVG in English, (whereas you can discuss French NonVG in Spanish, in _Español-Français_; and in Italian, in _Italiano-Français_).



Jana337 said:


> [...]
> These forums are not necessarily defined as forums *about *the respective languages but as forums *in *the respective languages. [...]


 
Interesting thought, but the sub-header of _Sólo Español_ says "_Temas y preguntas sobre el idioma_"_;_ that of _Français Seulement_ "_Discussions portant sur la langue française_"; and the Sticky at the beginning of _Solo Italiano_ states "_Questo Forum è esclusivamente dedicato a questioni relative alla lingua italiana (ortografia, semantica, linguistica, uso, grammatica, etc.)"_ 

... All of which sounds very much like forums *about *the respective languages  



Jana337 said:


> [...]
> that the other forums were too small to be fragmented in mono- and bilingual sections. [...] German-French, for example, is too rare a combination to sustain a stand-alone forum. [...] would have to move DE-FR threads in Other Languages, which would be absurd [...]


 
Absolutely clear. Please don't think I was suggesting restructuring the smaller forums —not at all! I was just remarking that, because of their simpler structure, they don't suffer from the limitations that this thread addresses.

So, once again, thanks for your informative post, Jana. 

But my point concerning the French-English forum still stands, and as far as I can see it's unique in that respect (which is why I made reference to numerous other forums). So I'd still be interested to see whether others share my views on "*Limitations in the scope of the French-English forum*".

Ws


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## pyan

There are a couple of important points about the French-English forums here. One is the split into vocabulary and grammar questions and the other is the scope of the forum.

Yes. the split into vocabulary and grammar forums is artificial.  The question was discussed for some time before a decision was taken and it is reviewed now and again. The strongest argument, for me, for the split was that searching for existing threads on the same subject would be easier. Searching for an existing thread for a grammar question is still often difficult for us because there are so many ways the same question can be expressed. 

The second question is about the scope of the forum.  If you go to the dictionary start page you will see this:*Language Forums*     Supporting the translation dictionaries, we also have the Internet's premier  language forums. If you have a question about language usage, first search the hundreds of thousands of previous questions. If you still are not sure, then you can ask the question yourself. Native speakers from around the world will be happy to assist you. You may soon find that you are able to help others as well.​The key here is "supporting the translation dictionaries". This remit is larger than that of a conventional dictionary but still fairly limited in scope.

The three examples given (in the opening post) of topics which would be considered outside the scope of the French-English forums are (1) accents, (2) dialects and (3) learning methods. (My numbering)

(1) I can't see a useful dialogue about accents in a medium based on the written word. We do allow discussions of pronunciation but this is rarely satisfactory without the use of specialised notation. We are not set up to deal with sound files. 

(2) Translations of dialect words, regionalisms, argot and patois based on French or English are discussed. There is no problem here at the moment. If there were a large number of questions about one particular dialect this would be an opportunity to look at the organisation of the forums, not a problem.

(3) "Learning methods" is not part of the remit of any of the forums. All the moderators of all the forums would support the moderators of small forums who allowed this sort of thread before the forum was big enough to justify a "resources sub-forum".  

Are there any other non-vocabulary, non-grammar questions, to which one would go to a dictionary to find an answer?  There may be.  Do you have an example?


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## Nanon

In my opinion, one would post in the FE Vocabulary sub-forum "by default" if the question is not related to grammar. It is by far the broadest FE section.

And I don't think that a question that would "have to do with the French or English language only, not with vocabulary or grammar" (?...) would remain unanswered...


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## Loob

I take Wordsmyth's point.  Where does one post a Fr/E question that relates neither to _vocabulary/translation_ nor to _grammar_?

The same issue surely arises in the Sp/E forums, which are similarly divided....


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## fenixpollo

Loob said:


> I take Wordsmyth's point.  Where does one post a Fr/E question that relates neither to _vocabulary/translation_ nor to _grammar_?
> 
> The same issue surely arises in the Sp/E forums, which are similarly divided....


 It does not arise, to my knowledge. 

It's not clear what you mean by "questions that relate neither to vocabulary nor to grammar". There are many types of threads that are outside the scope of the Spanish-English forum. For example, we do not allow discussions about:
- language learning
- best practices for translators
- internet resources and useful websites
 - general linguistic topics, such as a general discussion about a dialect (eg. lunfardo or spanglish)
- aspects of general culture
- etcetera

Is this what you're talking about?


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## Loob

fenixpollo said:


> Is this what you're talking about?


No But there are aspects of language use which don't fall into the category of either vocabulary or grammar: register differences between different ways of expressing the same idea, for example.

That said, I wasn't supporting Ws' suggestion of a third sub-forum.  It would be presumptuous of me to do so, as I seldom visit Fr/E


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## cyanista

Loob said:


> No But there are aspects of language use which don't fall into the category of either vocabulary or grammar: register differences between different ways of expressing the same idea, for example.


I tend to agree with Nanon. "Vocabulary" forums are perfectly capable of  embracing vocabulary questions proper ("What does "crédit" mean in this passage?") as well as questions about translation, usage and register.


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## fenixpollo

I understand now. Yes, translation, usage and register all fall within either grammar or vocabulary, or they can be made to. Another example is pronunciation: is it "vocabulary" or "grammar", or is it neither?  The Spanish-English mods have agreed to place all pronunciation questions in the Spanish-English Grammar/Gramática forum, although they could just as easily go in the General Vocabulary forum.


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## Loob

Thanks, fenixpollo - for both your understanding and your answer


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## Wordsmyth

Many thanks to _pyan_ for the clear explanation, and to everyone for your comments and views.

Maybe I should explain what sparked off my thinking. I came across a thread in which the questioner had asked how well 'standard' French would be understood in a particular part of the French-speaking world — a question potentially covering grammar, vocabulary, dialect, register, usage, ... Answers appeared, based on members' own experiences, and then the thread was deleted as being 'outside the scope of the forum'. Admittedly the thread was in the Grammar forum, and the discussion wasn't developing in the direction of grammar, but rather around regionalisms and register. However it was a pertinent discussion about French language, and I felt it could have been moved rather than deleted ... ah, I thought, but moved to where? That led me to my earlier thoughts in this present thread.

However, as comments here show, the forums do generally accept language questions/discussions that are broader than pure grammar/vocab/dico topics ; (and I'm very glad that's so, as it often gives a fuller perspective to the more academic language issues ): 



pyan said:


> [...] (2) Translations of dialect words, regionalisms, argot and patois based on French or English are discussed. There is no problem here at the moment.
> [...]


 


Nanon said:


> In my opinion, one would post in the FE Vocabulary sub-forum "by default" if the question is not related to grammar. It is by far the broadest FE section.
> [...]


 


fenixpollo said:


> [...] Yes, translation, usage and register all fall within either grammar or vocabulary, or they can be made to. Another example is pronunciation: is it "vocabulary" or "grammar", or is it neither? The Spanish-English mods have agreed to place all pronunciation questions in the Spanish-English Grammar/Gramática forum, although they could just as easily go in the General Vocabulary forum.


 
So actually my idea of another sub-forum isn't really necessary, as long as a little flexibility (within reason) is applied to the question of scope. Or maybe some 'marginal' cases (like the one I described above, that was perhaps too general to be either Grammar or Vocabulary, but had a linguistico-cultural theme) could be moved to the 'Cultural Discussions' forum. 

And of course, to lighten the Mods' workload in this area, members might also try to post in the right forum, at least where it's obvious. (Not sure if that sounds like preaching ... or optimism. )

Ws


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