# BCS and other Slavic languages: Imperativ with "nemoj"



## WannaBeMe

Hello!
I was just thinking about the way of making negation of imperative modus in Serbocroatian.
So there is two ways to do it.

Čitati  -- *ne čitaj* or *nemoj čitati* ( as usualy we can replace infinitive with da+present construxtion so it can be also _*nemoj da čitaš *_)

2. ne čitaj
3. da ne čita / neka ne čita
1. ne čitajmo
2. ne čitajte
3. da ne čitaju / neka ne čitaju

or with the verb "nemoj"

2.nemoj čitati
1.nemojmo čitati
2.nemojte čitati

I asked myself:
1) if other slavic languages can make imperative this way?
2) what is etnology of _nemoj _and _neka_?


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## DarkChild

In Bulgarian this is done with недей/nedey which literally means "do not".

So the same examples would be like this:

Не чети/ne cheti or Недей да четеш/nedey da chetesh


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## iobyo

And in Macedonian:



			
				WannaBeMe said:
			
		

> 2. ne čitaj — _не читај_
> 3. da ne čita / neka ne čita _— да не чита / нека не чита_
> 1. ne čitajmo _— да не читаме_
> 2. ne čitajte _— не читајте_
> 3. da ne čitaju / neka ne čitaju _— да не читаат / нека не читаат_



Macedonian, however, doesn't have the infinitive. The word _немој_ does not usually conjugate, but it isn't uncommon to hear _немојте_.



			
				WannaBeMe said:
			
		

> or with the verb "nemoj"
> 
> 2.nemoj čitati — _немој да читаш_
> 1.nemojmo čitati _— _does not work with "_немој_": _да не читаме_
> 2.nemojte čitati — _немој(те) да читате_


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## TriglavNationalPark

Standard Slovenian uses *ne* + imperative.

(brati = to read)

2. ne beri
3. naj ne bere
1. ne berimo
2. ne berite
3. naj ne berejo

However, the Bela Krajina dialect, with which I'm familiar since my grandmother speaks it, uses *nekar* + infinitive (*nekarte* for the plural):

(čitat(i) = to read)

nekar čitat
nekarte čitat

This may be an influence of BCS since the Bela Krajina dialect is transitional to BCS in several respects.


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## Azori

Slovak uses ne- and the imperative as well:

2. nečítaj
1. nečítajme
2. nečítajte

This is the only way to form the negation.


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## Plzenak

lior neith said:


> Slovak uses ne- and the imperative as well:
> 
> 2. nečítaj
> 1. nečítajme
> 2. nečítajte
> 
> This is the only way to form the negation.


 
Similar in Czech :

2.nečti!
1.nečtěme!
2.nečtěte!


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## Maroseika

In Russian there are only 1 way: не читай (не читайте).

Я can imagine however construction with да: 
Да не читай (мужу своему мораль на ночь)! But it will sound quite archaic or high-style.


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## bibax

In Czech there is a construction with *ať* (something like Russian Да).

1. ať (ne)čtu
2. ať (ne)čteš
3. ať (ne)čte

1. ať (ne)čteme
2. ať (ne)čtete
3. ať (ne)čtou

*ať* is a particle, the verb is in indikative.

For example: Ať žije ....! (Russian: Да здравствует ...!)


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## Azori

Slovak has a word with the same meaning as the Czech _ať_ - *nech* (translates as "let" or "may" - for example: "nech je to tak" - may it be so). Actually, this is not an imperative:

1. nech (ne)čítam
2. nech (ne)čítaš
3. nech (ne)číta

1. nech (ne)čítame
2. nech (ne)čítate
3. nech (ne)čítajú


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## Maroseika

lior neith said:


> Slovak has a word with the same meaning as the Czech _ať_ - *nech* (translates as "let" or "may" - for example: "nech je to tak" - may it be so).


It refers to the Rusian and Ukrainian нехай, Bel. хай. According to Vasmer it is connected with Bulg. хая, Serb. ха̏jати, Slov. hájati, Rus. dial. хаять - to take care. I.e. нехать - to leave without care.


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## WannaBeMe

Maroseika said:


> It refers to the Rusian and Ukrainian нехай, Bel. хай. According to Vasmer it is connected with Bulg. хая, Serb. ха̏jати, Slov. hájati, Rus. dial. хаять - to take care. I.e. нехать - to leave without care.



My Russian girlfriend told me that in some russian dialects people may say
*не моги читать* or *не смей читать*. Is this correct and what meaning does it have precisely?


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## TriglavNationalPark

lior neith said:


> Slovak has a word with the same meaning as the Czech _ať_ - *nech* (translates as "let" or "may" - for example: "nech je to tak" - may it be so). Actually, this is not an imperative:


 
In Slovenian, *naj* has the same function:

*Naj* je/bo tako. = *May/let* it be so.

However, *naj* is also required for third person imperative forms in Slovenian.


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## WannaBeMe

TriglavNationalPark said:


> In Slovenian, *naj* has the same function:
> 
> *Naj* je/bo tako. = *May/let* it be so.
> 
> However, *naj* is also required for third person imperative forms in Slovenian.



Is* naj *only a particle or is it a full verb and can be conugated?
Perhaps it may have the same etimology like BCS  "ne*moj*".


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## TriglavNationalPark

WannaBeMe said:


> Is* naj *only a particle or is it a full verb and can be conugated?
> Perhaps it may have the same etimology like BCS "ne*moj*".


 
It's only a particle. I believe it's fully analogous to *neka* in BCS (as in "*neka* ne čita").


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## Azori

TriglavNationalPark said:


> However, *naj* is also required for third person imperative forms in Slovenian.


Is "naj" in the third person in Slovenian really the imperative? I'm asking because in Slovak (and also in Czech) according to definitions the imperative works only with the second person singular and the first and the second person plural.


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## TriglavNationalPark

lior neith said:


> Is "naj" in the third person in Slovenian really the imperative? I'm asking because in Slovak (and also in Czech) according to definitions the imperative works only with the second person singular and the first and the second person plural.


 
Interesting! I based what I wrote on the BCS examples from post #1 of this thread, but you are apparently correct; the third person forms are not considered to be the imperative in Slovenian. According to THIS article about Slovenian imperatives, "*For the 3rd person the optative particle naj **+ indicative form is used*, which is also an alternative for the imperative of the 1st person Dl and Pl, when embedded."* T.M.S. Priestly writes in Comrie and Corbett's _The Slavonic Languages_ (Routledge) that the *naj*-based optative compounds "*complement*" and "*partially overlap*" the imperative.

* Embedded imperatives are apparently unique to Slovenian, but that's another story.


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## Maroseika

WannaBeMe said:


> My Russian girlfriend told me that in some russian dialects people may say
> *не моги читать* or *не смей читать*. Is this correct and what meaning does it have precisely?


  Не смей читать is absolutely literal and means something like "don't you dare read ", i.e this is more strong imperative construction that just не читай.
As for не моги, this is colloquial imperative of the verb мочь (to be able), so in fact it means the same like не смей. However this imperative is colloquial and sounds a bit weird, being used mostly jocularly. But not dialectical both.


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## bibax

In Czech there is also a construction with conditional:

*Ne abys četl!* = Nečti! (but stronger, with threat)


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## Duya

TriglavNationalPark said:


> Interesting! I based what I wrote on the BCS examples from post #1 of this thread, but you are apparently correct; the third person forms are not considered to be the imperative in Slovenian.



We were taught in basic school that those periphrastic forms were imperative (though, possibly with a disclaimer that they're not the "proper" one). I've checked in the Stevanović's "Grammar", which is a referential (though a bit outdated) book, and it says:

"...So, we don't have a form of imperative for 3rd person sing. and pl. either, but an order for an absent person is expressed descriptively -- using the 3rd person form of present tense with the particle: _neka kaže (on) i neka kažu (oni)_[...]"

So, no, it is not treated as a (proper) imperative in BCS either, though it is often presented as such in less formal discourses.


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## bibax

> Is "naj" in the third person in Slovenian really the imperative? I'm asking because in Slovak (and also in Czech) according to definitions the imperative works only with the second person singular and the first and the second person plural.


In Czech there IS an imperative form for the 3rd person singular. However the 3rd person sing. form is equal to the 2nd person sing. form of imperative.

1. ---
2. buď (budiž) _be!_
3. buď (budiž) _let he/she/... be!_

1. buďme (buďmež)
2. buďte (buďtež)
3. ---

_(*-ž* can be added to every imperative forms, but it sounds somedeal archaic)_

For example:

*Buď/budiž světlo!* (= Fiat lux, Let there be light!)
*Chval/chvaliž každý duch Hospodina!* (= Let every soul praise God!)
*Dejž to Pán Bůh!* (= Let God give it!)

The forms *buď*, *chval* and *dej* in the examples are real imperatives.
Can be replaced by a construction with the particle *ať* (or *nechť*) + indicative:

*Ať (or nechť) je světlo! Ať (nechť) každý duch chválí Hospodina!* etc.


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## Azori

bibax said:


> In Czech there IS an imperative form for the 3rd person singular.
> 
> *Buď/budiž světlo!* (= Fiat lux, Let there be light!)
> *Chval/chvaliž každý duch Hospodina!* (= Let every soul praise God!)
> *Dejž to Pán Bůh!* (= Let God give it!)
> 
> The forms *buď*, *chval* and *dej* in the examples are real imperatives.


Are these three just exceptions or are there more?

There are also sentences like "Buď svetlo!" or "Chváľ každý duch Hospodina!" in Slovak Bibles but I don't think anyone would use such construction in everyday life.


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## bibax

Certainly the three examples are not exceptions at all, I can create more examples:

Stůj/stojiž každý na svém místě!
Ochraňuj pastýř své ovečky!
Peciž každá hospodyně dobrý chléb!

However this imperative sounds archaically formal, like a solemn command.


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## Duya

WannaBeMe said:


> Hello!
> 2) what is et*ym*ology of _nemoj _and _neka_?



We forgot to answer the etymology question, apparently.

Hrvatski jezični portal (bookmark!) is your friend:

*nemoj:* ne- + _imp._ *moj (skraćeno) od _v._ moći (I)
*neka:* _prasl._ *nekъ, *nexъ (_polj._ niech)


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## pikabu

TriglavNationalPark said:


> However, the Bela Krajina dialect, with which I'm familiar since my grandmother speaks it, uses *nekar* + infinitive (*nekarte* for the plural):
> 
> (čitat(i) = to read)
> 
> nekar čitat
> nekarte čitat
> 
> This may be an influence of BCS since the Bela Krajina dialect is transitional to BCS in several respects.



Primorci (near Italia) would say "Nestoj(te)", which is a certain paradox because it literally means "don't stop" but it's used for someone to stop.  Dialects may be trully very tricky.


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## vianie

bibax said:


> In Czech there IS an imperative form for the 3rd person singular. However the 3rd person sing. form is equal to the 2nd person sing. form of imperative.
> 
> 1. ---
> 2. buď (budiž) _be!_
> 3. buď (budiž) _let he/she/... be!_
> 
> 1. buďme (buďmež)
> 2. buďte (buďtež)
> 3. ---
> 
> _(*-ž* can be added to every imperative forms, but it sounds somedeal archaic)_
> 
> For example:
> 
> *Buď/budiž světlo!* (= Fiat lux, Let there be light!)
> *Chval/chvaliž každý duch Hospodina!* (= Let every soul praise God!)
> *Dejž to Pán Bůh!* (= Let God give it!)
> 
> The forms *buď*, *chval* and *dej* in the examples are real imperatives.
> Can be replaced by a construction with the particle *ať* (or *nechť*) + indicative:
> 
> *Ať (or nechť) je světlo! Ať (nechť) každý duch chválí Hospodina!* etc.





lior neith said:


> Are these three just exceptions or are there more?
> 
> There are also sentences like "Buď svetlo!" or "Chváľ každý duch Hospodina!" in Slovak Bibles but I don't think anyone would use such construction in everyday life.





bibax said:


> Certainly the three examples are not exceptions at all, I can create more examples:
> 
> Stůj/stojiž každý na svém místě!
> Ochraňuj pastýř své ovečky!
> Peciž každá hospodyně dobrý chléb!
> 
> However this imperative sounds archaically formal, like a solemn command.



"budiž" is pretty common in Slovak too, the other forms almost not. (I am curious whether it is just Czech influence, or Czech has maintained something better than Slovak once again.)
However, the forms reminds me of archaic Slovak "Povedzže mi, zrkadielko!"" or "Pozrimeže!" (shortened form "Dajž' Boh štastia!" or "Buďtež' ako deti!" reminds me rather of one Lesser Polish feature).


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## WannaBeMe

vianie said:


> "budiž" is pretty common in Slovak too, the other forms almost not. (I am curious whether it is just Czech influence, or Czech has maintained something better than Slovak once again.)
> However, the forms reminds me of archaic Slovak "Povedzže mi, zrkadielko!"" or "Pozrimeže!" (shortened form "Dajž' Boh štastia!" or "Buďtež' ako deti!" reminds me rather of one Lesser Polish feature).



Yes the particle* že *is also very common in Churchslavonic and it exists in Russian in very living usage.
Slovenian analogue particle is* re. *This particle was also used a lot by Old Serbian and Croatian but today it is saved only in some expressions and mostly to make something more interesting or to emphasize sth.
Hajde*r*(*e*), onda*r*(*e*), kako*re*, koliko*re*, Bože-*re* ti daj zdravije (old)


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## Azori

vianie said:


> "budiž" is pretty common in Slovak too


"Budiž" is not in standard Slovak and besides, Slovak doesn't have imperative forms with _-ž_.


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## vianie

WannaBeMe said:


> Yes the particle* že *is also very common in Churchslavonic and it exists in Russian in very living usage.



More than just interesting.



lior neith said:


> "Budiž" is not in standard Slovak



Thank You, I have forgot to pop word "colloquial" there.



lior neith said:


> and besides, Slovak doesn't have imperative forms with _-ž_.



Providing Slovak poetic language of yore is a pragmatized Czech dangler replete with Bohemisms, in that case it actually does not have.

no keď svitne ráno — dajž to, Bože dobrotivý! —
vstaniž, a ku sláve veď i bratov svojich.
A ráno svitne, oj, svitne deň slávskej voľnosti,
uvítajž ho dušou celou, srdcom vrelým


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## ilocas2

> I asked myself:
> 1) if other slavic languages can make imperative this way?
> 2) what is etnology of _nemoj _and _neka_?



In Czech Nemoj is a name used in the middle ages.

f.e.
Roku 1102 daroval Vršovec Nemoj ves Skršín vyšehradskému kostelu. - In year 1102 Nemoj from Vršovci family gave village Skršín to Vyšehrad church.

It's not about imperative, but after all "nemoj" is in the title of this thread, so it's not off-topic.


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## Panceltic

In colloquial Slovene, we also use *ne + short infinitive*:

Ne tega delat! - Don't do this!
Ne se sekirat! - Don't worry!

As infinitive has no number, these sentences can be used for all persons and numbers.

As regards the genuine 3rd-person imperative forms, there are some (identical to 2nd person) in addition to the normal "naj + indicative" forms mentioned above:

Bodi svetloba! - Let there be light
Zgodi se tvoja volja - Thy will be done


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## marco_2

DarkChild said:


> In Bulgarian this is done with недей/nedey which literally means "do not".
> 
> So the same examples would be like this:
> 
> Не чети/ne cheti or Недей да четеш/nedey da chetesh



Can we also say _Недей чита, недей писа _instead of _недей да четеш / пишеш_?


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## Daniel.N

WannaBeMe said:


> So there is two ways to do it.
> 
> Čitati  -- *ne čitaj* or *nemoj čitati* ( as usualy we can replace infinitive with da+present construxtion so it can be also _*nemoj da čitaš *_)
> 
> 2. ne čitaj
> 
> or with the verb "nemoj"
> 
> 2.nemoj čitati
> 
> 2) what is etnology of _nemoj _and _neka_?



One fine point: the first option (*ne* + imperative) is not used for most perfective verbs. Therefore, you would not say *ne zatvori vrata*, but *nemoj zatvoriti vrata*.

*nemoj* is historically from *ne + moj *<* mozi*, where *mozi *is the imperative of* moći* (like *pomoći* - *pomozi*). See HJP


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## paunkiller

marco_2 said:


> Can we also say _Недей чита, недей писа _instead of _недей да четеш / пишеш_?


Yes, but: _Недей чете, недей писа._


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