# Etymology of Persian نشان/nešân(sign, pointer)



## PersoLatin

نشان appears to have been derived  from نشاندن/nešândan, the causative of نشستن/to sit, is that the case? 

Maybe initially developed for road signs which are driven into, or set in the ground.


----------



## I.K.S.

I'm also curious to know its etymology, In my dialect the word means ''straight ahead''.


----------



## PersoLatin

إتحادية قبائل الشاوية said:


> I'm also curious to know its etymology, In my dialect the word means ''straight ahead''


In Persian نشان is used for insignia, marking, indication, trace etc, نشانی means address, نشانه means target, it is also used in compound verbs e.g. نشان دادن means, to show, to point, and I think it is this sense of it that has been borrowed into Arabic.


----------



## momai

There is also the verb نيشن على (esp. in military) to point one's gun on so/sth or to aim at sth in general.


----------



## I.K.S.

PersoLatin said:


> In Persian نشان is used for insignia, marking, indication, trace etc, نشانی means address, نشانه means target, it is also used in compound verbs e.g. نشان دادن means, to show, to point, and I think it is this sense of it that has been borrowed into Arabic.


The meaning that نيشان conveys in formal Arabic is different to that one of our dialect, it means : badge of honor.
I believe the colloquial نيشان in sense of ''straight ahead'' has been introduced to us through the Turks.


momai said:


> There is also the verb نيشن على (esp. in military) to point one's gun on so/sth or to aim at sth in general.


True.


----------



## CyrusSH

In Persian _nišan_ has two different meanings with different origins, one of them is اسم فاعل مرخم (shortened agent noun) of _nišândan_ "to seat, to put an end to", like in _âtaš nišân_ "firefighter", literally "one who extinguishes a fire".

But about the second meaning that you mean, I didn't understand what Dehkhoda dictionary says: معنی نشان | لغت‌نامه دهخدا it mentions a Hebrew word, probably it means Hebrew נֵס (nés) "miracle" also "flag, staff, banner": נס - Wiktionary Cognate with Aramaic נִסָּא‏ (nisa).


----------



## PersoLatin

CyrusSH said:


> In Persian _nišan_ has two different meanings with different origins


It looks that way, I checked McKenzie Pahlavi (MP) dictionary which says:

_"nišāstan _set/seat/plant/found(foundation)_" _which looks very much like the MP causative of "_nišastan nišin, _to sit", so terms like فرونشادن/to quell or آتش نشادن/extinguish fire,  are its related uses.
_also
"nišān banner/sign/mark" _must be derived from_ "niš-_ see/observe". It seems "_niš, to see"_ itself has not survived into NP (?).

*But is "niš- see/observe" Iranic?* (I don't know what נס - Wiktionary says or if it is saying anything)

It is also interesting that NP نشانی-neŝâni/address could equally be derived from both meanings, address can be defined as a: known place (_nišān/_sign) where a building exists/sits (_nišān_/set or founded_) _but which is it?


----------



## CyrusSH

As I see two other similar words have survived in Modern Persian: _*ni*mâ_ and _*ni*gâh_, the verb _nimudan_ is synonym to _nišân dâdan_ (_nimud_ and _namâd_ are synonym to _nišân_), and the verb _nigaristan_ means "to see, to observe". About another meaning of _nišân_, _*ni*hâd_ has almost the same meaning, in fact the verbs _nahâdn_ and _nišândan_ are synonyms.


----------



## PersoLatin

CyrusSH said:


> As I see two other similar words have survived in Modern Persian: _*ni*mâ_ and _*ni*gâh_, the verb _nimudan_ is synonym to _nišân dâdan_ (_nimud_ and _namâd_ are synonym to _nišân_), and the verb _nigaristan_ means "to see, to observe".


Is there an etymological explanation for disappearance of _š?_


----------



## CyrusSH

PersoLatin said:


> Is there an etymological explanation for disappearance of _š?_



I talked about this _š_ in this thread about _fruš_ "sale": Etymology of Persian word Feroush فروش which means sell or sale It has been added to the present stem to make a noun.


----------



## Treaty

_ni_- is a common verbal prefix, not the root, in Indo-Iranian found in almost every verb beginning with _ni-_ (e.g. _nihādan, nišastan, nigāštan, nivištan, etc._). According to Cheung, _nišān _is the contraction of _ni-yaš-ān_ (MMP _nyyš'n_) in which *_yaš _means "to show" (cf. Skt _yaks_-). Aramaic _nišā_ and similar are found in Syriac and at earliest, Hatran Aramaic, all dating to after the Parthian and Persian influence.


----------



## PersoLatin

Treaty said:


> _ni_- is a common verbal prefix, not the root, in Indo-Iranian found in almost every verb beginning with _ni-_ (e.g. _nihādan, *nišastan*, nigāštan, nivištan, etc._).


Isn’t ni- in _nišastan_ part of the word, or maybe even means ‘down’, based on a previous thread & also on OED:

Old English nest "bird's nest, snug retreat," also "young bird, brood," from Proto-Germanic *nistaz (source also of Middle Low German, Middle Dutch nest, German Nest), from PIE *nizdo- (source also of Sanskrit nidah "resting place, nest," Latin nidus"nest," Old Church Slavonic gnezdo, Old Irish net, Welsh nyth, Breton nez "nest"), probably from *ni "down" + from PIE root *sed- (1) "to sit."


----------



## Treaty

The _ni _("down" as you said) in _nišastan_ is a prefix (or preverb) attached to the main component (that is *_had_ <IIr. *_sad_ < PIE *_sed_ "to sit". The initial _s/š _is sometimes preserved after preverbs like _ni _in Iranian)_. _Regarding the idea of the Iranian verb being *from* PIE *_nizdo_, rather than a parallel development, it is hard to imagine *_zd_>*_šas/šad. _


----------



## PersoLatin

This is the thread about نشستن and a post from it:


fdb said:


> Yes. Both come from the preverb ni- "down" with the IE root *sed- “to sit”, as in Latin sido, English sit. In Iranian you have Avestan hiδ-, but after ni- the first consonant becomes š (ruki rule).


----------



## Treaty

Thanks. My point is while they have parallel semantics and morphology, they developed independently in different times and languages; therefore, the Iranian verb is not a descendant of PIE *_nizdo _but of PIE *_ni _+ PIE *_sed_.


----------



## CyrusSH

I think Persian _ni-_ prefix is similar to _de-_ in English/Latin like in _descend_ and _deverbal_, it can mean both "down" and "from". Compare to Persian _zâr_ and _nizâr_ (nazâr), _šib_ and _nišib_ (našib), ...

Latin _nota_ "mark, sign, note" is from _nōscō_ "know", it is possible that Persian nišân was originally *ni + šenâ (šenâxtan "to know"), compare to âšnâ "familiar, known".

نشانه: معنی نشانه | فرهنگ فارسی معین  علامت مشخصی برای شناختن چیزی
نشانی: معنی نشانی | فرهنگ فارسی معین علامتی که با آن کسی یا چیزی یا جایی را بشناسند.


----------



## PersoLatin

If ni- in nivištan, nihâdan & nigâštan has the same function, then we should be able to break them down, and then would *vis*/*viš* (ni-viš-tan), *hâ* and *gâr*/*gâš* mean write, put and write and is there a PIE root for these too?

Maybe these are in the same category, nemudan/نمودن  and nahoftan/نهفتن?

Also MP words:
nibâstan/nibastan - lay down
nibēm - lying, prostrate
nigun - upside down / NP sarnegun/سرنگون 
with obvious use of ni- as down.


----------



## PersoLatin

There are two other words that may shed some light on the function of ni-, they are آفرین/âfarin- praise/blessing and نفرین/nefrin (nifrin) - curse. They are antonyms of each other, with prefixes of â-(negative particle?) and ni-.

âfarin is obviously the present stem of âfaridan-to create/praise, and maybe nifrin is the same for nifridan - to curse. Is there any information on these please?


----------



## Treaty

PersoLatin said:


> If ni- in nivištan, nihâdan & nigâštan has the same function, then we should be able to break them down


If you can access Cheung's _Etymological Dictionary of the Iranian Verb,_ you'll find the etymology of many of the words you mentioned (I think it may be against the rules if I put all examples from that book):
_nivištan_ < *_pais_- "to paint, to adorn" (cognate of "paint" as well). 
_nihuftan_ < *_sumb_- "to make up", with _s>h_ in WIr.
_nigāštan_ < *_kar_- "to make, to do".


----------



## PersoLatin

Treaty said:


> If you can access Cheung's _Etymological Dictionary of the Iranian Verb,_ you'll find the etymology of many of the words you mentioned (I think it may be against the rules if I put all examples from that book):
> _nivištan_ < *_pais_- "to paint, to adorn" (cognate of "paint" as well).
> _nihuftan_ < *_sumb_- "to make up", with _s>h_ in WIr.
> _nigāštan_ < *_kar_- "to make, to do".


That's a shame but rules are rules. Thank you anyway.


----------



## PersoLatin

I'd like to summarise what I have so far understood to be the answer to the OP.

نشان/našân/nešân has two unrelated roots & meanings: 
One means, sign, marker and has this make up: "_ni-yaš-ān_ (MMP _nyyš'n_) in which *_yaš _means "to show" (cf. Skt _yaks_-)"
Two means, to set, seat, plant or found, it is the present stem of _nišandan_, the causative of _nišastan/_نشستن/to sit.

Also, the initial _ni-_ in both versions is a verbal prefix with a known meaning of 'down', but other meanings are possible.

I'm sure more can be said about the ni- prefix, and its other possible meanings, I would especially like some views on post #18.


----------



## Derakhshan

In Kaboli you have _sheshtan_ (present stem _shin-_) and causatives _shinaandan_/_shaandan_, I wonder why the preverb _ni_- isn't present there.


----------



## PersoLatin

Derakhshan said:


> In Kaboli you have _sheshtan_ (present stem _shin-_) and causatives _shinaandan_/_shaandan_, I wonder why the preverb _ni_- isn't present there.


In Iranian Persian we also have بشین/_beŝin _which is missing the _ni- _prefix, of course there's also بنشین_/benŝin.  _


----------



## Derakhshan

PersoLatin said:


> It seems "_niš, to see"_ itself has not survived into NP (?).


There is actually نیشیدن which means "to watch the stars". _nīš_- "see" is also found in Fars dialects.



Treaty said:


> According to Cheung, _nišān _is the contraction of _ni-yaš-ān_ (MMP _nyyš'n_) in which *_yaš _means "to show" (cf. Skt _yaks_-).


_nyyš'n_ is the nominal derivative of _nyyš_- "see", how would the *_yaš_ interpretation fit semantically with the latter?

Also there is another verb in MMP with a double-_y_, _nyys_- "to put, place, set", which is also found in Early Judaeo-Persian as _ns_-/_nys_- [_nes_-/_nēs_-]. Some modern dialects have _nes_- "put" as well. How is the MMP double-_y_ interpreted here, and what is the etymology of _nyys_-/_nes_-?


----------



## Derakhshan

Treaty said:


> *_had_ <IIr. *_sad_ < PIE *_sed_ "to sit". The initial _s/š _is sometimes preserved after preverbs like _ni _in Iranian


Ah, just saw this. I guess _nyys_-/_nys_- "put" is of the same root as نهادن, but where that initial _s_ survived. EJP has both _nyh'dn_ and _nys'dn_.


----------



## fdb

The root of nihādan is dah-, with d > δ > ϑ > h. The etymology of MMP nyys- is not known, but it cannot have the same root as nihādan.


----------



## Derakhshan

PersoLatin said:


> :_"nišāstan _set/seat/plant/found(foundation)_" _which looks very much like the MP causative of "_nišastan nišin, _to sit",


Is this _a_ > _ā_ another way of forming causatives in MP?

I noticed it in MP _hamb*a*stan_ "collapse" and _hamb*ā*stan_ "demolish" as well. What is the rule for its use and how does it differ from the usual causative suffix -_ēnīdan_?

Also, I want to share something strange about the verb نشاندن in my language.

In Larestani all causatives are formed using suffix -_enada_ < MP -_ēnīdan_. e.g. _raseda_ > _rasenada_ = رساندن

But نشاندن "to seat, to cause to sit" is _*šonda*_, which seems to use the Persian causative suffix -_ândan_. This is strange, and I can't think of another verb that uses the Persian suffix for the causative. It's as if the -_ândan_ in نشاندن is a part of the verb root rather than a causative suffix.

Furthermore, wouldn't the causative of _nešastan_ be *nešīnândan* rather than _nešândan_?


----------



## Derakhshan

Here's an idea I had,

MP had these verbs:

_nišastan_, _nišīn_- "sit"
_nišāstan_, _nišān_- "seat, cause to sit"

Is it possible that we got the verb نشاندن, not by using the NP causative suffix -_ân(i)dan_, but rather by simply adding -_dan_ to the present stem _nišān_- (present stem of _nišāstan_) which already existed?

This would conveniently explain all the problems I pointed out above.


----------



## Mk71mk

I am learning Persian. Amd in order to remeber words I am always trying to find their etymology. This word is simply a "calcum" i.e. a copy of the latin word Insigna (ensign flag) where initial ne is the same as "in" and šãn is from PIE root Segh2 that means to.cut in order to distinguish and hence "signum" (sign, mark); consoder that gn in latin is read ñ. So nešãn is the simply and identical copyright of insigna and no link to sit. In this way it has a simple and easy etymology without problems


----------



## PersoLatin

Mk71mk said:


> I am learning Persian. Amd in order to remeber words I am always trying to find their etymology. This word is simply a "calcum" i.e. a copy of the latin word Insigna (ensign flag) where initial ne is the same as "in" and šãn is from PIE root Segh2 that means to.cut in order to distinguish and hence "signum" (sign, mark); consoder that gn in latin is read ñ. So nešãn is the simply and identical copyright of  and no link to sit. In this way it has a simple and easy etymology without problems


Thank you Mark.

Can _nešãn _be a "calcum"/calc of _insigna_, considering how old _nešãn _is? At best they can be cognates and for that we need more input.


----------

