# amannak-emennek



## Vladimir Nimčević

Kedves barátaim

While I was reading the newly appeared book "Bunjevci odabrani tekstovi iz mađarske stručne literature..." I found one confusing sentence.

Bunjevci govore srpsko-hrvatskim jezikom i prvi u štokavskom, a u drugi u ikavskom dijalektu. Na nekim područjima rasprostranjen je ekavski, a još više jekavski dijalekt, dok veoma veliki uticaj ima i mađarski jezik.

(Bunjevci speak Serbo-Croatian language, the former in the Stokavian, and the latter in the Ikavian dialect. In some areas the Ekavian dialect is more widespread, and even more so the Jekavian dialect, while the Hungarian language also has a very great influence.)

The book is actually series of translated Hungarian texts. So I took a look at the original text and found that it read as follows

A B. a szerb-horvát nyelvet beszélik, még pedig amannak «stokáv», emennek «ikáv» nyelvjárását. Némely részen az «ekáv», de még inkább a «jekáv» dealektusok és a magyar nyelv hatása igen nagy

Funny thing is the translator of the book is Hungarian. Even I with my poor Hungarian can see that the translation is erroneous.

I think that amannak and emennek do not mean the former, the latter, but something else.

I think the author of the original text wants to say that the Bunyevac people speaks the Ikavian dialect of the Stokavian variant of the Serbo-Croatian language.


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## numerator

Actually, the original does have the same meaning.
Perhaps it was some sort of editing error even in the original.


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## Vladimir Nimčević

numerator said:


> Actually, the original does have the same meaning.
> Perhaps it was some sort of editing error even in the original.


So you say it may have been an editing error. I never thought about it, but I think it does make sense. 

Maybe that explains the errors in the translation. The translators also had difficulties in understanding the original text. But I think he should have consulted with his colleagues about the parts he had not understood before handing over his translation, because the form in which it was presented to a wider circle of readers is ridiculous and does not mean anything than a laugh.

Némely részen az «ekáv», de még inkább a «jekáv» dealektusok és a magyar nyelv hatása igen nagy.

If I am not wrong, it means:

In some parts (the language of Bunjevac people) it is highly influenced by the Ekavian dialect, but even more so by the Jekavian dialect and the Hungarian language.


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## numerator

@Vladimir Nimčević 
Yes, you are right, the second sentence _is_ mistranslated - the original talks about the large _influence _of Ekavian and Jekavian dialects, while the translation says the dialects themselves are widespread.

But the first sentence really is the same in Hungarian, with the same awkwardness of mentioning a single "Serbo-Croatian language" and then talking about "the former" and "the latter" (or "this one" and "that one").

Judging by the fragment you gave us, both the original and the translation seem rather careless for scholarly work


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## numerator

I googled the Hungarian text and was surprised to find that the source was A Pallas nagy lexikona. It was a very reputable source in its time, but obviously errors are possible in any text.

My guess is that the author may have written something like "a szerb-horvát nyelvet beszélik, mégpedig annak a stokáv változatát, ennek is az ikáv nyelvjárását" and an editor who didn't know the subject matter decided to improve the style. But it's just a wild guess, we will never know...


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## numerator

Interesting: Further googling brought up a version of the same entry in Révai nagy lexikona:
https://archive.org/stream/rvainagylexiko04rvuoft/rvainagylexiko04rvuoft_djvu.txt

A B. a szerb-horvát nyelvet beszélik.még pedig 
amannak «stokáv», emennek «ikáv)) nyelvjárását. 
*Némely részen az «ekáv)),de még inkább a «jekáv» 
dialektusok járják* és a magyar nyelv hatása igen 
nagy. 

Here, apparently, the second sentence also fell prey to an overzealous editor! (There are also OCR errors in the webpage text, which doesn't help, but "járják" cannot be an OCR error...)

Perhaps the poor translator is not at fault after all. Does the publication say what the source text was?


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## francisgranada

I have the impression that the author intended to say:

_A Bunyevácok a *szerb *és *horvát *nyelvet beszélik, még pedig *amannak *«stokáv», *emennek *«ikáv» nyelvjárását. Némely részen az «ekáv», de még inkább a «jekáv» dealektusok és a magyar nyelv hatása igen nagy ..._

 If so, then the error was made probably by the editor, who replaced "szerb és horvát"  by the term "szerb-horvát" (illogically in the given context).


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## Vladimir Nimčević

numerator said:


> Interesting: Further googling brought up a version of the same entry in Révai nagy lexikona:
> https://archive.org/stream/rvainagylexiko04rvuoft/rvainagylexiko04rvuoft_djvu.txt
> 
> A B. a szerb-horvát nyelvet beszélik.még pedig
> amannak «stokáv», emennek «ikáv)) nyelvjárását.
> *Némely részen az «ekáv)),de még inkább a «jekáv»
> dialektusok járják* és a magyar nyelv hatása igen
> nagy.
> 
> Here, apparently, the second sentence also fell prey to an overzealous editor! (There are also OCR errors in the webpage text, which doesn't help, but "járják" cannot be an OCR error...)
> 
> Perhaps the poor translator is not at fault after all. Does the publication say what the source text was?


The book is actually a translation of the original text (Pallas Nagy Lexikona)


francisgranada said:


> I have the impression that the author intended to say:
> 
> _A Bunyevácok a *szerb *és *horvát *nyelvet beszélik, még pedig *amannak *«stokáv», *emennek *«ikáv» nyelvjárását. Némely részen az «ekáv», de még inkább a «jekáv» dealektusok és a magyar nyelv hatása igen nagy ..._
> 
> If so, then the error was made probably by the editor, who replaced "szerb és horvát"  by the term "szerb-horvát" (illogically in the given context).


Both Serbian and Croatian are based on the Štokav dialect, which for its part includes the Ikav subdialect.


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## francisgranada

Vladimir Nimčević said:


> Both Serbian and Croatian are based on the Štokav dialect, which for its part includes the Ikav subdialect.


Ok, I only tried to give logical sense to the original text published in the Pallas Nagy Lexikona ...

Btw: I am not an expert of the southern Slavic languages, however I think it is important to take in consideration that terms like _ekáv, ikáv, jekáv_, etc. are _termini technici_, i.e. artificial terms that serve for practical reasons. For example in Slovak there are similar phenomena, see e.g.: _ml*ie*ko, ml*e*ko, ml*i*ko _(=milk). Neverthless, the Slovak dialects cannot be categorized on basis of the realization of the supposed Protoslavic [ě].


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## Vladimir Nimčević

francisgranada said:


> Ok, I only tried to give logical sense to the original text published in the Pallas Nagy Lexikona ...
> 
> Btw: I am not an expert of the southern Slavic languages, however I think it is important to take in consideration that terms like _ekáv, ikáv, jekáv_, etc. are _termini technici_, i.e. artificial terms that serve for practical reasons. For example in Slovak there are similar phenomena, see e.g.: _ml*ie*ko, ml*e*ko, ml*i*ko _(=milk). Neverthless, the Slovak dialects cannot be categorized on basis of the realization of the supposed Protoslavic [ě].


Of course, that is why we are here. To clarify the meaning of some sentences and words through discussion.  But in this case, we are unable to accomplish the goal, since the original text is in very bad shape. As a native speaker you see that better than me.


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