# Shoganai and dasai



## Cereth

Hello!!

I know how Shoganai and dasai can be translated into Spanish (ni modo/naco?) but how do you translate these words into english -I don´t want to translate from Japanese into Spanish and then translate into English-, how do you Japanese and English natives translate those words?.

Thanks in advance from "Kumori" Guadalajara City.....


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## Flaminius

I solicit correction from kind fellow posters who speak Spanish but I am under the impression that *Cereth* thinks _shoganai_ and _dasai_ are synonymous.  They are not.

_Dasai_ is tacky, dweeby or countrified, i.e., the opposit of cool, hip, groovy or chilled.  Very simple.

Yet, _shoganai_ needs more detailed explanation.  Ellipted from "shiyoo-ga nai" (sorry guys, I cannot wield my favourite macron in this PC), it literally means "there is no way."  But no way to do what?  This question leads to the many usages of the expression.

Shoganai is "I cannot help it," when used to describe an irresistible urge one is feeling.
チョコレートが食べたくてしょうがない。
chokoreeto-ga tabetakute shooganai.
I am craving to eat chocolate.

It can mean, "There is no use in doing something."
いまから書いてもしょうがない。締め切りは昨日だった。
ima-kara kaitemo shooganai.  shimekiri-wa kinoo datta.
There is no use in [start to] writing from now.  The deadline was yesterday.

Another meaning is incorrigible or impossible after the sense of "no way to mend."
あの人はしょうがない。
anohito-wa shooganai.
He is impossible.
[note: on a second thought, this use of _shooganai_ as expressing something is disagreeable is not far from _dasai_.]

What seems to be derived from this sense is, "really."
夏は蚊がうるさくてしょうがない。
natsu-wa ka-ga urusakute shooganai.
In summer mosquitos are really annoying.

Finally, if uttered by itself, _shooganai_ is an expression of resignation, "I cannot complain."


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## Aoyama

I'd be presumptuous to dare ad anything after Flam 's extensive and close to definitive explaination. Nevertheless, in very short :
*shoganai= it can't be helped/nothing to be done about it* (with all derived possibilities)
*dasai = bland, tasteless, uninteresting* (rightly the opposite of "cool")
Flam might explain, later, the origin of *DA* which can be found in *dame*, *dagashi* etc. With the meaning of *futile, cheap *...


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## Flaminius

Alas, I am going to disappoint *Ao*'s insatiable inquiry at etymology, but there seems to be no definitive arguments concerning the origin of _dasai_.  I shall not reproduce this lengthy opinion because, after exploring all the possible opinions I have ever heard on this, it concludes, "The etymology is unknown."


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## Aoyama

Well, this insatiable quest for etymology won't be fed today. I'll take a look at the opinion listed. Thank you.


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## Cereth

Well I do not know why you thought I thought "shoganai" and "dasai" were the same???
I never said that!!
in Spanish Shoganai means: *Ni modo*, which is something like "*it can be helped*"
and Dasai means: *Naco* or "tacky"

but I just wanted to be sure "tacky" was the same than "dasai" because spanish word "naco" is sometimes difficult to translate. I speak fluently Spanish and English and right now I´m learning Japanese, I just did not want to make a translation from Japanese into Spanish and then into English because I thought that those words could change a little bit, but I´m happy to know that my original idea was right...
I think I was clear the first time....


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## Flaminius

Stop wondering, Cereth....   As I understand no Spanish, your "ni modo/naco" appeared to me saying *Both mean either _ni modo_ or _naco_.  Sorry for the confusion.  Flam


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## gaer

Flaminius said:


> _Dasai_ is tacky, dweeby or countrified, i.e., the opposit of cool, hip, groovy or chilled. Very simple.


"Countrified" is defined as "lacking sophistication". So here "unsophisticated" might be a good word. Instead of "dweeby", which is really an ususual word, I would recommend "lame". I may think of better words. "Hip" is still used, but "groovy" is itself "lame" now. It hit its peak in the 1960s and 70s.


> Another meaning is incorrigible or impossible after the sense of "no way to mend."
> あの人はしょうがない。
> anohito-wa shooganai.
> He is impossible.
> [note: on a second thought, this use of _shooganai_ as expressing something is disagreeable is not far from _dasai_.]


But is ださい really "disagreeable"?

Let's say that you say someone is "not cool", 'lame", "a nerd", etc. There is a possible overlapping.

"He is impossible" could possibly mean:

"We can't do anything about him, he is such a nerd, he is so lame." (and so on)

But that's really stretching the meaning of "disagreeable".

I have a question: would it be more correct to write shôganai, or does it make no difference in romaji?

Gaer


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## Aoyama

I checked *dasai* and (I should have guessed it), together with the fact that the origin is not clear, I found out that it is *dasa.i* , not *da sai* as I had first thought, linking the word to *da saku, da jare, da me *etc.
*Dasa.kunai* could then be possible (like *okashi.kunai*).
I still think however that somewhere, the attraction of *da* exists ...


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## Aoyama

> anohito-wa shooganai.
> He is impossible.


Or also :anohito-wa shooganai : he is a helpless case/Nothing can be done to change his ways


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## gaer

Aoyama said:


> Or also :anohito-wa shooganai : he is a helpless case/Nothing can be done to change his ways


We also say, informally:

"You can't do anything with him." (He is impossible to change, to reason with, etc.)


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## Hiro Sasaki

"dasai " means "not elegant " and " not smart". It came into much use
in the 70's.  The origin of many words wriiten usually in Katakana or 
Hiragana can not be recognized nor can be proved, except for the words
of foreign origins.  ( He is "shoganai otoko " ) is not the same as
( He is dasai otoko ). When a mother says to her child "Shooganai ko ne",
it is not a strong scolding, although I don't knoe whether I can call it
an affectionate.  A wife may say to her husbund " Shooganai hito ne". 
It depends, but she can say so with a smile.


Hiro Sasaki


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## Aoyama

That is very true . With this, we enter the world of _amaé_ . But this may be another story ...


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