# Panem et Circenses / Circensis



## Stolker

I'm trying to solve this "mistery":

I've found this well-known Latin expression in two versions with a slight difference between them:

- Panem et circenses

- Panem et circensis

I have the impression that the first one is the correct form, but I'd like to be sure (It's been ages since I used to study Latin at the Gymnasium and I'm a bit "oxidated").


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## franz rod

The right sentence is "panem et circenses"
Circensis, circense is an adjective


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## Stolker

franz rod said:


> The right sentence is "panem et circenses"
> Circensis, circense is an adjective


 
Grazie tante!

Yes, I know; it's not a noun like _panis,is_. Then _circenses _is in the accusative case in the plural... I think.


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## franz rod

> Then _circenses _is in the accusative case in the plural...



Exactly
N: circenses
G: circensum
D: circensibus
Acc: circenses
V:  circesnses
Abl:  circensibus

"[populus] iam pridem, ex quo suffragia nulli
vendimus, effudit curas; nam qui dabat olim
imperium, fasces, legiones, omnia, nunc se
continet atque duas tantum res anxius optat,
panem et circenses"   by Juvenal


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## Flaminius

Yes, _circenses _is in the accusative case in the plural.  In fact this is an adjective (pertaining to the Circus) that turned into kind of a noun by popular usage.  The plural form especially refers to contests in the _Circus Maximus_.


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## Stolker

franz rod said:


> Exactly
> N: circenses
> G: circensum
> D: circensibus
> Acc: circenses
> V: circesnses
> Abl: circensibus
> 
> "[populus] iam pridem, ex quo suffragia nulli
> vendimus, effudit curas; nam qui dabat olim
> imperium, fasces, legiones, omnia, nunc se
> continet atque duas tantum res anxius optat,
> panem et circenses" by Juvenal


 
Franzus et Flaminius, gratiae!

"The people that once bestowed commands, consulships, legions, and all else, now meddles no more and longs eagerly for just two things — bread and circuses!"

Stolkerus


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## wonderment

Stolker said:


> I've found this well-known Latin expression in two versions with a slight difference between them:
> 
> - Panem et circenses
> 
> - Panem et circensis


Hi  Both versions are fine. 3rd declension adjectives can have accusative plural ending in _–is_ or _–es_ (full paradigms here).


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## Stolker

wonderment said:


> Hi  Both versions are fine. 3rd declension adjectives can have accusative plural ending in _–is_ or _–es_ (full paradigms here).


 
Really? I have the impression that the form in _-is_ must had been in use some centuries after the Classic Latin period, maybe during the Late Latin period or even long after, when it was becoming Vulgar Latin. It's just a suggestion.


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## wonderment

Stolker said:


> Really? I have the impression that the form in _-is_ must had been in use some centuries after the Classic Latin period, maybe during the Late Latin period or even long after, when it was becoming Vulgar Latin. It's just a suggestion.



Really, yes  According to _Allen and Greenough's New Latin Grammar for Schools and Colleges_ (the link I posted), both _-es_ and _-is_ are valid forms for accusative plural of 3rd declension adjectives, even for the classical period.


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## franz rod

But circenses isn't a adjective in this context but a noun...


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## wonderment

franz rod said:


> But circenses isn't a adjective in this context but a noun...


That's a good point, ma...technically it's an adjective. When we say _panem et circenses_, we mean _panem et circenses (ludos)_--the _ludos_ is implied. One is more likely to encounter _circenses_ in this context, but that doesn't make _circensis_ incorrect (I don't think).


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## judkinsc

I agree with Wonderment on the interchangeable nature of the endings "is" and "es" in the 3rd declension nominative and accusative plural. I am familiar with it in Classical authors, as well. I did most of my Latin study in the Classical period, only venturing into medieval more recently.


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## franz rod

> That's a good point, ma...technically it's an adjective. When we say _panem et circenses_, we mean _panem et circenses (ludos)_--the _ludos_ is implied.



yes, in origin it's a adjective, but the "use" made it a noun.
moreover the majority of the author use -es fo accusative plural. I think I have found an -is only in text of repubblican period (but the sentence was written in the imperial one)


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## borgonyon

Hace un siglo que no he vuelto a mi latin --mi griego está casi tan oxidado--, ¡este hilo me llevó a aquellos años! ¿Ilumina esto el tema?


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## Stolker

borgonyon said:


> Hace un siglo que no he vuelto a mi latin --mi griego está casi tan oxidado--, ¡este hilo me llevó a aquellos años! ¿Ilumina esto el tema?


 
Más que iluminar, ameniza... Thanks, Borgonyon! (Yeah, you lose fluency easily with dead tongues... )

My thanks to the rest of the "actorii", too: Jud, Wonder, Franz, Flaminius (applause!!!)


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