# Genetive + saada + täyttetyä



## oloekis

Hakemuksen saat täytettyä nettisivuiltamme.


Moi,

1. Does the above sentence mean "You have filled the application in our webpage"? Could you provide word-for-word translation and a more natural translation?

2. Is täytettyä an adjective in "saada täytettyä", or a conjugated verb? If it is verb here, does it mean "to fill out" or "to have been filled"?

3. Could you explain why "hakemus" here is in genetive form, Hakemuksen?

4. Does it make any difference in meaning if it is "saat täytettyä hakemuksen"? If so, what is the changed meaning?


Kiitos paljon avustasi!


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## Grumpy Old Man

While you wait for replies from the pros, I'll give you my comments.


littlemonyou said:


> 1. Does the above sentence mean "You have filled the application in our webpage"?


No. It means: _You can fill in the application on our webpage. _


littlemonyou said:


> 2. Is täytettyä an adjective in "saada täytettyä", or a conjugated verb?


It's a passive form of the verb 'täyttää'.


littlemonyou said:


> 3. Could you explain why "hakemus" here is in genetive form, Hakemuksen?


The genitive is one of the object cases used in Finnish and it's required here. Another example: _Täytin hakemuksen._


littlemonyou said:


> 4. Does it make any difference in meaning if it is "saat täytettyä hakemuksen"? If so, what is the changed meaning?


That word order is also possible and it makes no difference in meaning here.


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## Warped

Good points, but, even though I am not a Finnish teacher, isn't it the n-accusative? As in "Täytin hakemuksen."


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## Marko55

Grumpy Old Man already answered your questions. Here I give you a few more details:

2) täytettyä is a passive participle (group V, partitive):
Partisiippi – Wikipedia

So, the structure is: saada + participle V (in partitive):
Sain siivottua viikonloppuna.

Examples (verb types 1-6):
1. lukea: luettu-a
2. syödä: syöty-ä
3. kävellä: kävelty-ä
4. leikata: leikattu-a
5. valita: valittu-a
6. paeta: paettu-a

"3. Could you explain why "hakemus" here is in genetive form, Hakemuksen?"

If you have a grammar book, most probably it speaks about *accusative* forms. Traditionally these forms are accusative forms:
Kirjoita *kirje*! (the word *kirje* looks like nominative, but it is an object, so it is called accusative)
Hän kirjoitti *kirjeen*. (the word *kirjeen* looks like genitive, but it is an object, so it is called accusative)
Tapasin *hänet*. (the word *hänet* is accusative)

A modern grammar (Auli Hakulinen, etc.: Iso suomen kielioppi, 2004) says that only these are accusative forms:
minut, sinut, hänet, meidät, teidät, heidät, kenet
(Akkusatiivi – Wikipedia)

So, it is not the most important thing if you call "hakemuksen" for accusative or genitive. You just have to understand that it is an object in the sentence. Compare:

1) *Hakemuksen* päivämäärä on tärkeä. (The date of the application is important.)
    - traditionally: genitive
2) Lähetin *hakemuksen* eilen. (I sent the application yesterday.)
    - traditionally: accusative

In my opionion, it is better to speak about accusative forms. Otherwise these forms are called differently:
Tapasin *hänet. *(accusative)
Tapasin *miehen*. (modern grammar: genitive!)


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## Warped

Ah, nice answer above.


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## Grumpy Old Man

My apologies if I have used the term 'genitive' in an incorrect context. My fragmentary knowledge of Finnish grammar dates from the 1950s and Setälä's grammar book. I don't recall him using the term 'accusative' at all, but then again, my recollection may be wrong. Having studied Finnish, Swedish, German, French, Latin and English grammar in school and at university, I find it impossible to remember exactly what grammatical terms are used in each language. This is made even worse by the fact that terminology often varies from grammarian to grammarian.

My thanks go to Marko55 for the detailed information.


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## Hakro

Original question point 2: "Hakemuksen saat täytettyä nettisivuiltamme."

This is a very common form in spoken language and unfortunately also in written text. When I studied Finnish (a long time ago), the fifth participe in partitive case was absolutely incorrect or at least a dialectic form. In correct Finnish language one should here use the translative case "saat täytetyksi".

Logically thinking, the translative case is right and the partitive case is just stupid.

The most horrifying example is "tulee syötyä (leipää)". When I eat bread, "leipä tulee syödyksi". Later, when I'm sitting in the toilet, minun sisältäni "tulee syötyä (leipää)" as the earlier eaten bread comes out of me.


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## DrWatson

Hakro said:


> Original question point 2: "Hakemuksen saat täytettyä nettisivuiltamme."
> 
> This is a very common form in spoken language and unfortunately also in written text. When I studied Finnish (a long time ago), the fifth participe in partitive case was absolutely incorrect or at least a dialectic form. In correct Finnish language one should here use the translative case "saat täytetyksi".
> 
> Logically thinking, the translative case is right and the partitive case is just stupid.
> 
> The most horrifying example is "tulee syötyä (leipää)". When I eat bread, "leipä tulee syödyksi". Later, when I'm sitting in the toilet, minun sisältäni "tulee syötyä (leipää)" as the earlier eaten bread comes out of me.


The participle in partitive form was accepted in written language by Suomen kielen lautakunta (Finnish language board) already in 1973. They are both correct. See Kielitoimiston ohjepankki.


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## Hakro

DrWatson said:


> The participle in partitive form was accepted in written language by Suomen kielen lautakunta (Finnish language board) already in 1973. They are both correct. See Kielitoimiston ohjepankki.


I know it's accepted. It just sounds silly to me.


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