# Where do animals go when they die?



## Nunty

Our month-old baby donkey had to be euthanised after being in a coma for several days following severe injuries.  A little girl staying in the guest house asked if she (the baby donkey) would go to heaven. We nuns mumbled something comforting and then had a lively discussion about the question among ourselves later.

I've been told that some Americans talk about "the rainbow bridge", a sort of heaven for beloved animals. Do other countries and cultures address this at all? What about the Brits; you're famous animal lovers!


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## danielfranco

I've been trying to find the verse of the Bible where it says something like: "... who told you that when animals die their spirit goes down into the earth?", but I can't remember the context, so I don't know where to look.
But I remember one of the teachings of my father's church (no mention, so that no one gets offended) is that animals die and that's it for them, because they don't have a spirit, like humans do.
I would tell my children that the goldfish had gone to "goldfish heaven", and that birdies go to "bird heaven", and so on and so forth, every time they asked when they saw one of those critters dead...
But that's just me: I can't say I learned that in Mexico or in the USA.


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## KaRiNe_Fr

French are pet lovers at least as much as Brits! See how many millions pets we have in France. 
I don't think it would be "fair" not getting animals into heaven (if any). Why this would be limited to human beings?


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## maxiogee

Nun-Translator said:
			
		

> We nuns mumbled something comforting


How absolutely stunningly honest and self-deprecating a comment!

I do not have any concept of an animal 'heaven' as we were taught here in my childhood that heaven was only for humans. Beloved pets didn't get a look-in afterlifewise.

Since then my own concept of an afterlife has taken a battering and emerged remodelled and revised. I do believe that all sentient life on earth shares something precious - the sentience.
Just as I have shared moments of great 'togetherness' with people - uncommon moments of communion, so have I had rarer moments with animals.
I feel (but cannot explain or rationalise, much as I try) that our sentience can touch another's - and I have had two stunning moments when mine touched something so huge as to overwhelm me - and I believe that in those moments I touched into some 'combined sentience' of… I don't know, was it mankind, all life on earth, the spirit of the universe, I've riddled and thought it over for years and have no good answer for myself. All I know is that on both occasions I had an overwhelming feeling of peace and acceptance - acceptance within me of my brokenness and imperfections, and a feeling of an external acceptance of me as being just as I was supposed to be.

I know from discussing this with others that I am not alone in having experienced it. All who have felt it also said how rare it was. Perhaps it is connected to the vast, normally unused parts of our brains.

Whether this makes sense or not I don't know — but this seems to be the thread to mention it, what are we if we are not animal?

Now, if there is an interconnection between people, and even between people and animals, I have no idea if that dies with us. I don't believe in a personal afterlife, but I would not find it too hard to believe that whatever happens to us also happens to animals.


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## la reine victoria

Hello Sister Clare Edith,

What an interesting question.  

I cannot prove anything by what I am saying. I will just say that I believe animals have souls, as we do, which live on. I like to think that they go to Heaven. If Heaven is the place we imagine it to be, where we will be reuinted with our loved ones, it would be a sad place if we couldn't see our much-loved departed pets. I mourned the death of my dog for four years and can't bring myself to have another one.

In my 150-year-old cottage I have my little cat, Tinsel, and a "ghost" cat which appears from time to time. I see it so clearly that on one occasion, when it walked into my dimly-lit bathroom, I reached out to stroke it (thinking it was Tinsel). My hand went straight through it and it disappeared.

My cottage was built as a bakery and I like to think this ghost cat once lived here as a mouser. I live in the countryside and fieldmice frequently come into my home to see what there is to eat. Tinsel sees them all off! She usually drops them, still alive but "playing dead" at my feet. I check them over to see they aren't injured then release them outdoors.  

Interestingly, Tinsel sees this little ghost cat too. When I first brought her home she was afraid of it and used to run under the table to hide. Now she ignores it.

My second ghost animal encounter was at the home of some friends. I was alone there one day. Suddenly a fairly large black dog appeared at the kitchen doorway, stepped into the sitting room and then lay down under a table. It made no noise. I think I said "Hello" to it, then it vanished! When my friends and my boyfriend came back I said to my friends, "Did you know your house is haunted?" Jo, the lady of the house, said, "Well, we do have a black dog which shows up from time to time but he's quite harmless." I told her what I had seen and she said, "That's exactly what he does every time he appears." 

My boyfriend scoffed and said, "Don't be ridiculous!" However, a few weeks later he was staying there without me. He sent me a letter saying, "Do you remember the black dog? Well, last night something woke me up by jumping on my bed. I looked and saw the dog lying there - now I believe you."

I've seen lots of human ghosts. This is probably contrary to your teaching, Sister Clare Edith, but I see no reason why spirits which have gone to Heaven aren't allowed to visit places to which they were formerly attached on Earth. According to some paranormal investigators there are certain spirits which are "Earth-bound", they don't wish to leave. Many people claim to see angels. Angels, we are told, are God's messengers and they can appear to people to comort them or change their lives by making them aware of God. There are countless stories in the Bible of angels appearing, most famously Gabriel to Mary.

I once believed most of what the Bible tells us. As I've grown older I've begun to question certain things. It is only by having absolute faith that we can accept that the Bible is the true word of God. My belief in God is unwavering but I can't accept, for example, the story of Adam and Eve as being true.  I think it is a legend, probably started by someone answering a child's question - "Where did the first people come from?"

However, I must stick to the topic but it is one which involves so many other topics.

To sum up, I believe the soul survives death and moves on to another dimension, which the major religions choose to call Heaven.  *I like to believe that animals have souls too - but where do we draw the line*?  In fact, we can't, if we believe.  Does it not say in the Bible that in Heaven the lion shall lie down with the lamb?

How do I explain the appearance of my ghost cat and dog (the dog having been seen by others)?  How do I explain the human ghosts I have seen?

*I truly don't know the answers, nor can I prove anything*.  I only know that I believe what I believe and I have seen what I have seen.

If the Bible is true, then one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is "*the discernment of spirits*".  Do some people have this gift and others not.  I have an old gentleman friend who will soon be 94.  We discuss the paranormal, supernatural, call it what you will, for hours.  He gets very cross that during his long life he has never seen a single ghost.  Yet he has many theories and beliefs in parallel universes, "time slips" from one dimension into another, "the things which we don't know that we don't know."

All speculation and natural curiosity - part of being human.  





LRV


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## la reine victoria

> Maxiogee
> I feel (but cannot explain or rationalise, much as I try) that our sentience can touch another's - and I have had two stunning moments when mine touched something so huge as to overwhelm me - and I believe that in those moments I touched into some 'combined sentience' of… I don't know, was it mankind, all life on earth, the spirit of the universe.


 


Tony,

I know exactly what you mean by these experiences as I, too, have had them, twice very strongly and a few other times to a slightly lesser degree.  They were very fleeting but totally overwhelming and I shall never forget them.

The first was many years ago.  It couldn't have happened in a more mundane place.  I was sitting on the top deck of a packed bus, creeping across Westminster Bridge in the morning rush-hour, idly looking at the River Thames.  I wish I could find the words to explain what happened.  (I am actually crying now at the memory of it.)  I was connected to something so powerful and all consuming that all my surroundings disappeared - I was elated yet strangely calm and peaceful.  My mind suddenly said, "This is what it is all about, this is the answer."  It was as if all my questions about *everything *had been answered.  I seemed to recognise my place in "the great scheme of things", that I was part of some universal "plan".  And it felt so fantastic - there has been nothing in my life to equal it.  But it was over in seconds and I couldn't get it back.

Several years later it happened again, this time in surroundings which one would consider far more conducive to such a revelation.  My boyfriend and I were travelling between excavation sites in the west of England.  We decided to have an overnight stop and obtained permission from a farmer to camp in one of his fields.  While my boyfriend was erecting the tent I wandered along the hedgerow, which suddenly ended.  I turned left and was stopped in my tracks as I gazed on a small meadow which was full of wild rabbits eating their supper.  I held my breath at the beauty of the scene before me and, again, was touched by this overwhelming "something" which told me, "You are part of this, you don't need to ask questions - simply accept."  Again I was elated yet completely at peace.

I wish I had better words to describe what happened.

My brother's German father-in-law, who had lain in a coma for a few weeks before his death, suddenly awoke, lifted his head and said, with strength, "It is so beautiful!"  With these words he died.  I like to think that he, too, had this experience.

I hope this isn't too far off topic.  We are of the animal kingdom, so why shouldn't all animals share our destiny?




LRV


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## Nunty

maxiogee said:
			
		

> I feel (but cannot explain or rationalise, much as I try) that our sentience can touch another's - and I have had two stunning moments when mine touched something so huge as to overwhelm me - and I believe that in those moments I touched into some 'combined sentience' of… I don't know, was it mankind, all life on earth, the spirit of the universe, I've riddled and thought it over for years and have no good answer for myself. All I know is that on both occasions I had an overwhelming feeling of peace and acceptance - acceptance within me of my brokenness and imperfections, and a feeling of an external acceptance of me as being just as I was supposed to be.


Have you read _The Varieties of Religious Experience_ by William James? You would probably find it interesting. The name in theology and in philosophy of religion for what you experienced is "immanence". It is a very beautiful and unforgettable thing. For me, in my religious context, it is being in the unmediated presence of God.

But back to the topic. As a good Catholic Christian (which I do try to be), I do not believe that animals have souls. But as a good Catholic Christian I do believe in the Bible, which says that all of creation will eventually be "recapitulated in Christ". I have no idea what that will mean, but I do have the intuition that it touches on this question. The new theologies of cosmic Christology deal with it, but I haven't studied enough even to make a _dumb_ comment.

The founder of our religious family, Saint Francis of Assisi, loved animals.  The foundress of our Order, Saint Clare of Assisi, had a pet cat, who brought her needlework to her when she was sick in bed. 

I don't  pretend to know how it will work, but I agree with those who talk about union and love as the characteristics of the afterlife.


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## Nunty

KaRiNe_Fr said:
			
		

> French are pet lovers at least as much as Brits! See how many millions pets we have in France.



Really? I had no idea!



			
				KaRiNe_Fr said:
			
		

> I don't think it would be "fair" not getting animals into heaven (if any). Why this would be limited to human beings?



You have a definite point...


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## Nunty

la reine victoria said:
			
		

> I wish I had better words to describe what happened.
> 
> My brother's German father-in-law, who had lain in a coma for a few weeks before his death, suddenly awoke, lifted his head and said, with strength, "It is so beautiful!"  With these words he died.  I like to think that he, too, had this experience.
> LRV


Your words are perfect. And yes, I think your brother's father-in-law did have an experience of the immanent.


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## KaRiNe_Fr

Nun-Translator said:
			
		

> Really? I had no idea!


 About 10 millions of cats and 8 millions of dogs... And I got those figures from old statistics of 2000. So it keeps on growing. 


> You have a definite point...


 My point is not that definite, as it is a question. I'm ready to hear any other points.


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## maxiogee

KaRiNe_Fr said:
			
		

> I don't think it would be "fair" not getting animals into heaven (if any).



Is not "fairness" a human construct?
I see no evidence in this world that there is any sense of 'fair' to the universe.
Assuming (and I don't automatically) that there is a deity external to the universe, I think that humanity has created its conceptions of it in our image and likeness — and in doing so humans have attributed to their deities the traits they most admire in themselves - be that avenging wrong or rewarding good. 
The problem for me with this is that it doesn't seem to be borne out by any evidence. Why should a deity be "human"?


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## maxiogee

Nun-Translator said:
			
		

> Have you read _The Varieties of Religious Experience_ by William James? You would probably find it interesting. The name in theology and in philosophy of religion for what you experienced is "immanence". It is a very beautiful and unforgettable thing. For me, in my religious context, it is being in the unmediated presence of God.


No, I haven't read it.
I had no sense of a deity involved in my experiences — though one of them occurred on a pilgrimage to Lough Derg (a place of penitential retreat in Ireland) which pilgrimage helped to further find Catholicism lacking for me.




			
				Nun-Translator said:
			
		

> But back to the topic.


I feel that our concepts of the afterlife and a 'communion' with other species is very much on-topic surely?


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## Nunty

maxiogee said:
			
		

> I had no sense of a deity involved in my experiences


 The experience of the immanent is not necessarily defined as experience of a deity. The _experience_ is common to all sorts of people from all sorts of cultural and religious backgrounds; the _interpretation_ of it is culturally bound. I stand on what I said. You had an experience of the immanent.


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## maxiogee

Nun-Translator said:
			
		

> The experience of the immanent is not necessarily defined as experience of a deity. The _experience_ is common to all sorts of people from all sorts of cultural and religious backgrounds; the _interpretation_ of it is culturally bound. I stand on what I said. You had an experience of the immanent.



Well,  if the immanent can occur without a deity then I'll accept your word (which for some reason rings bells for me which I can't quite locate, nnnnhhhh!).

--later--
Following a quick check of my favourite dictionary I see that it does indeed lack deistic overtones, after a fashion.
Chambers defines it as the pervasion of the universe by the intelligent and creative principle — but both Collins and the Oxford Concise have God in there.
- mmmhhh. I'm not sure. 

--edit--
Those bells have stilled - I was thinking of impanation, or Immanuel, and possibly both.


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## Chaska Ñawi

There are many different flavours of Friends (Quakers), so this by no means represents every one - in the same way that none of us can claim to be representative of everyone practicing their faith.

All Friends speak of the divine Light being present in all humans.  Many Friends, including a large number in Canada and the north-eastern U.S., extend this and see a spark of the Divine in _all _life.  As such, we see us all, leviathan to paramecium, equally important in the functioning of the world.  We share space and time on a variety of levels, many of them currently invisible to us.

With this foundation, an afterlife accorded only to a few select sparks is unimaginable to me.


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## KaRiNe_Fr

maxiogee said:
			
		

> Is not "fairness" a human construct? [...]
> Why should a deity be "human"?


 Yes, that was precisely my point.  If all that is "human constructed", so we can imagine all sorts of things in a so called "human constructed" heaven, even pets there. 
Maybe "animal constructed" heaven doesn't allow human beings to be there...


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## la reine victoria

KaRiNe_Fr said:
			
		

> Yes, that was precisely my point.  If all that is "human constructed", so we can imagine all sorts of things in a so called "human constructed" heaven, even pets there.
> Maybe "animal constructed" heaven doesn't allow human beings to be there...


 


Animals are far nicer than humans - they deserve to be in Heaven more than we do.  God bless them all and spare them from the cruelty which people inflict on them.



LRV


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## Bonjules

I think KaRiNe has a point.
The donkey, the beloved dog or cat
might not mind as much having us there.
After all, we gave them a great start to the afterlife
by attentive care, followed by tears and prolonged mourning.

Our fellow creatures who die by the thousands every day
in the anguished cries of industrial slaughter might feel a little different.


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## moura

I, who am agnostic, don't  know if there is a soul - a human soul, an animal soul. Perhaps it is not very confortable being this way, but that's how feel since I lost my "faith" along time ago. But I do believe in the power of the mind. That's where I find, together with my strength, all my dead loved ones - persons and animals.  On rare moments I almost dialogue, silently, with them. 
Though my relationships with all them were different, there is a common link of affection, love and regret after their disappearance - here I can not distinguish the rational from the irrational beings - after all the main difference between people and animals (for me, of course). 
Far away, they keep on living in my mind and that is the further I can reach with all my great, great, human limits.
And probably that was the answer I would give to a child, if she asked me about the destiny of a dead animal: he or she stopped living, but if you want, shall be forever in your mind.


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## Bonjules

That, Moura, is a beautiful, yet reasonble and still very consoling way to think about it. I agree with you.

But, thinking more about what I just said a post ago: If there are a these animal heavens, I must insist that there be different ones for those animals who had a nice life/death and those who didn't. I don't want my  dead dog/cat have to deal with the post-traumatic stress of a cow that was crammed in the death conveyor for an hour with other srceaming animals. Now this might be selfish, but that's just how I feel.


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## maxiogee

Bonjules said:
			
		

> That, Moura, is a beautiful, yet reasonble and still very consoling way to think about it. I agree with you.
> 
> But, thinking more about what I just said a post ago: If there are a these animal heavens, I must insist that there be different ones for those animals who had a nice life/death and those who didn't. I don't want my  dead dog/cat have to deal with the post-traumatic stress of a cow that was crammed in the death conveyor for an hour with other srceaming animals. Now this might be selfish, but that's just how I feel.



Surely the very concept of a Heaven precludes such a concept of post-traumatic stress?  
Surely the only stress in a Heaven would be from the thoughts of "Why didn't I get here sooner?"


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## Bonjules

Gee, Maxi, I don't know, not being an expert in these things.
Now, since there are different circles of Hell, shouldn't there
be differnt 'grades' of heaven also? Some cultures, I believe,
have 'in-between (heaven and hell)' places too, probably for 
the 'grey mouse' majority of us who didn't do anything too terrible
but were'n heros or saints either....


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## maxiogee

Bonjules said:
			
		

> Gee, Maxi, I don't know, not being an expert in these things.


Can anyone who hasn't been there be an expert? 
Would you buy a guidebook to Japan written by someone who had never been there, 
… and who had never spoken to anyone who had? I wouldn't.


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## moura

Bonjules, purely speculating, if these animals heavens should exist, they would be places without a human logics or feelings as post-traumatic stress. If they should exist, a new beginning would take place, with no earthly reflexs or ideas - but as I said, I am merely rambling from my human point of view


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## Bonjules

Moura,

I am so relieved that you and Maxi can reassure me on this.

But, in general, and this might also be something some pariticipants in these fora - who apparently have more (privileged?) information on the subject than the rest of us -might consider:
( If I am allowed to improve a little on Anais Nin)

"We don't see things as they are, but as we want them to be"


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## Outsider

When I was a boy, I had a favorite rabbit. One day, he died, and I was heartbroken. My mother told me he would go to heaven. I suppose even then I knew deep down that this was not standard Catholic doctine, but it was a comforting thought.


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## TrentinaNE

I think animals "go" the same place humans do, which is where we were before being born.  Remember that place?  No, neither do I.


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## maxiogee

Do you believe in recycling? 

There are a finite number of atoms on earth. 
Most of them are locked in the earth's core.
The things at the surface are pretty unchanging - rocks which I see outside my window have been rocks for millennia. Some rocks habe degraded to pebble, gravel or sand.
Water is H & O and comes and goes.
All the rest of the 'stuff' at the surface is constantly combining, growing and decaying - whether in the form of plants or as animals. 
The plants either become animal food, or decay and become new plants.
The animals likewise become food or they decay and become plant matter again.
The chances are that part of me was part of Napoleon's cousin, or Julius Caesar's barber, or one of the asps which bit Cleopatra!


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## KateNicole

I am Lutheran, and to be honest, I am not sure if the Bible supports this or not, but this is what I was taught:
Animals are not capable of following or understanding religion or believing in a higher power and therefore do not have a soul (as we know it) which means they do not go to Heaven, nor would they ever go to hell. The body just stops working and the brain stops thinking. Although as a human, I most definitely hope that there is a Heaven and that I will go there, the idea of an animal simply ceasing to exist both in the physical and the spiritual doesn't really seem all that horrible to me. Not everything has to last forever.


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## KaRiNe_Fr

KateNicole said:
			
		

> Animals are not capable of following or understanding religion or believing in a higher power and therefore do not have a soul (as we know it) which means they do not go to Heaven, nor would they ever go to hell.


And what about babies?


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## KateNicole

Very good question. In regards to that logic, I was never taught that babies do not go to Heaven. Perhaps one could assume that they do because, had they grown up, they would have had the potential to understand the theory of a higher being whereas animals (as far as I'm concerned) never do. Also, animals for example, have no sense of morality. Their sense of free will is different. They can be taught to obey and, for example, can learn that is "wrong" to urinate inside the house, but as far as morality goes, they have no sense of right and wrong--although they are much more innocent than us humans, in my opinion! Both sin and religious devotion are impossible for animals.
I learned that in certain African cultures where infant mortality rates are very high, a baby that does not live to be nine days old is not to be mourned because it never had a soul. Although this might sound cruel, I think there is actually something comforting about it, especially for a mother who has suffered the lost of multiple babies.


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## maxiogee

KateNicole said:
			
		

> but this is what I was taught:
> Animals are not capable of following or understanding religion or believing in a higher power and therefore do not have a soul (as we know it) which means they do not go to Heaven, nor would they ever go to hell.



Does the having a soul bring the understanding, or does the understanding generate the soul?

If we ever manage to truly communicate with the more intelligent of the species we share this place with - then we might be in a position to know what they can or cannot understand.
Whether we can ever know if any animal has a soul is something I wouldn't like to try to discuss right now. 

For those who believe it, it would appear that we will not be the only non-divine beings in the Heaven of the Old Testament and its associated religions - there are angels of various "orders", and other religions seem to also allow that various non-God/non-human spirits will outlast the earth.


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## KateNicole

It's not that I'm trying to persuasively profess that animals don't have a soul. I have a strong feeling that whatever happens to them upon death does NOT involve hell, and that's enough peace of mind for me.  Like I said above, I don't think that all things need to last forever.


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## Lykurg

Wherever we might go - there is a definite bible saying even the deepest Atheist could not confute: 





			
				Ecclesiastes 3:18-21 said:
			
		

> 18 I also thought, "As for men, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. 19 Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath [b] ; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless. 20 All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. 21 Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal [c] goes down into the earth?"


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## maxiogee

Lykurg said:
			
		

> Wherever we might go - there is a definite bible saying even the deepest Atheist could not confute:



I think you misunderstand the concept of an atheist.
An atheist would query the source of the quote - after all is said and done, it was written by a human.

My quibble would be "Who is this "I" who speaks to us, and how did he come by this 'thought'?" After all, anyone can have a thought - it does not make it divine inspiration or (pardon the pun) gospel truth.


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## rsweet

Certainly if you ascribe to a certain religion, you will follow the doctrine of that religion with regard to the afterlife of animals. This said, I like to think that devout people continue to re-interpret and evolve within their religious traditions, and this seems to be happening here. I find this lovely and kind.

I am very spiritual but not orthodox within any religious tradition, and I simply can't justify a hierarchy in the hearafter that separates humans and other animals. Just before my 94-year-old grandfather died, he was visited by the beloved dog of his boyhood. Also, my mother ran a care home for the elderly, and many of the residents were visited by animals just before their death. One man clearly saw a cardinal (the bird  ) on his window sill the morning before he died. Cardinals simply do not exist as far west as California, but he was adamant and one of the other very elderly residents said that she saw it, too. The peaceful glow on their faces would have made anyone believe in angels! Finally, when my daughter was 10, we allowed her to sleep in the barn with her very sick pony the night before the pony was to be euthanized. My daughter recounted things her pony told her about the afterlife and the cycle of life and death that were heartbreakingly true and wise. I choose to believe that these thoughts did come from her pony.


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## la reine victoria

Lykurg said:
			
		

> Wherever we might go - there is a definite bible saying even the deepest Atheist could not confute:


 


My lost faith in the Bible is beginning to be restored.  Thanks Lykurg.




LRV


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## Outsider

I must point out that the words that Lykurg quoted are not from God, or from one of his representatives.


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## Lykurg

I know, Outsider and maxiogee, but the words I considered to be irrefutable are "the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. [...] All go to the same place" - that should be enough, regardless whether believing or not. 

//Edit:
Of course, it is of no use if someone bases his faith on other (holy) texts, but it serves both Christians and Atheists, I think.
Outsider, one might discuss who is a representative of God - but I don't think that it would make much sense.


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## danielfranco

Lykurg said:
			
		

> *Ecclesiastes 3:18-21*
> 18 I also thought, "As for men, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. 19 Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath [b] ; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless. 20 All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. 21 Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal [c] goes down into the earth?"


 
Thank you for defining that verse I mentioned on the second post of this thread.
Yep, I also believe that we humans are animals... 

[I can sense all those fingers poised over the keybord right now, ready to start sending the indignant and vehement "you might feel animal-like, I am human! *raspberry*]

No offense, forum-brethren!


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## GenJen54

HERE's a site that addresses the Rainbow Bridge "concept."  Apparently, it was an anonymous poem. 

I would like to think that the Creator who brought each of us into this earth also saw fit to take care of us eternally. As animals are "innocents," however, bearing no free will as do humans, they do find their way to "heaven."

I personally believe that animals have souls, and like rsweet, have heard of cases where those humans nearing death saw and/or felt the presence of long, lost pets who escorted them on their way to the afterlife.

Perhaps, as someone else suggested, this is mere "wishful" thinking, but until the Divine Answers of the Universe are revealed to me upon my own death, I choose to believe there is a place for animals, too.  Afterall, what is Divine Grace if not giving eternal life to those who are wholly innocent in the world?


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## Bonjules

Hola,
I am not really sure about  souls or afterlife.
But if there are such things: That my abusive, violent drug-addict neighbor kid who robbed me three times should have a soul and my 
gentle, noble dog ( a real peace maker also) shouldn't because she is 'only' an animal - that I find preposterous.


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## KateNicole

Well, according to most religions, what actually _happens_ to your neighbor's soul might not be too good . . . 
Having a soul and getting to Heaven are two very different things.


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## Bonjules

Unless, I imagine, he 'repents' at the last minute, after 
blazing a trail of pain and suffering around him for his entire life.
Is there at least something like 'probation' in heaven?


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## Nunty

Bonjules said:
			
		

> Unless, I imagine, he 'repents' at the last minute, after
> blazing a trail of pain and suffering around him for his entire life.
> Is there at least something like 'probation' in heaven?


I understand your anger. We Catholics believe in Purgatory, which is a place of purification. People in Purgatory cleanse themselves and are cleansed in order to enter into the beatific vision. Last minute repentance is very nice, but he will still spend a time (we believe that Purgatory is temporal) in experiencing the consequences of his behavior and learning new ways. Gross over-simplification, but I'm sure you get the point.

Yes, off topic, I know. But he asked!


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## Chaska Ñawi

And now, after this information update, we return to our scheduled broadcast....


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## Bonjules

Well said, Chaska.
If I may just add one last thing:
My gentle, noble dog decided to sleep in the middle of the bed and won't
leave in spite of being talked to very nicely both in English and Spanish.
I take back everything I said about her!


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