# za dnia



## Lorenc

I've come across the expression _za dnia_ meaning 'during the daytime' (w dzień, w ciągu dnia).
I'd like to know how common it is and if it sounds old-fashioned. 
Grammatically it seems to me that there are some oscillations on the case to use after 'za' in expressions meaning 'during':
*za jego życia *'during his lifetime (za+genitive)
*za króla Kazimierza Wielkiego *'during the reign of Casimir the Great' (za+genitive)
*za moich czasów...* 'at my times...' (za+genitive)
But:
*za komuny *'during communist times' (za+accusative)
*za młodu *'when I/he/etc was young' (za+dative?)

Okay, perhaps the last example doesn't count because the form is fossilized.


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## zaffy

I would perhaps use it journey-wise. "Dotarliśmy tam za dnia"  But still, I guess most people would say "Przyjechaliśmy tam jak jeszcze było jasno/widno". It's not common in everyday language.


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## Ben Jamin

Lorenc said:


> I've come across the expression _za dnia_ meaning 'during the daytime' (w dzień, w ciągu dnia).
> I'd like to know how common it is and if it sounds old-fashioned.
> Grammatically it seems to me that there are some oscillations on the case to use after 'za' in expressions meaning 'during':
> *za jego życia *'during his lifetime (za+genitive)
> *za króla Kazimierza Wielkiego *'during the reign of Casimir the Great' (za+genitive)
> *za moich czasów...* 'at my times...' (za+genitive)
> But:
> *za komuny *'during communist times' (za+accusative)
> *za młodu *'when I/he/etc was young' (za+dative?)
> 
> Okay, perhaps the last example doesn't count because the form is fossilized.


All your  examples include the genitive case.
Komuna (nominative), komuny (genitive), *komunę ! (accusative)
młod** (adjective, completely obsolete form of nominative, contemporary *młody*), młodu* (obsolete form of genitive, contemporary *młodego).*
The obsolete form of genitive of this word is used only in the fossilized expressions like *za młodu. *Actually I can't recall another example of use of this form.
*These obsolete forms of adjectives are called "short forms". *Młod *was declined like the noun *miód*


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## jasio

There's also "jak za króla Ćwieczka", which means that something is really old and outdated. But it's a fixed phrase, so it does not count.

Personally, I use these forms. If rarely - its only because I rarely have a need. And it's not only about traveling. For example "wolę to zrobić za dnia, bo przy sztucznym świetle słabo widzę". "za Gierka w sklepach pojawiła się coca cola". "za (czasów) dyrektora Karwowskiego tu panował idealny porządek".

But I don't have an impression that it's outdated.


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## Ben Jamin

jasio said:


> There's also "jak za króla Ćwieczka", which means that something is really old and outdated. But it's a fixed phrase, so it does not count.
> 
> Personally, I use these forms. If rarely - its only because I rarely have a need. And it's not only about traveling. For example "wolę to zrobić za dnia, bo przy sztucznym świetle słabo widzę". "za Gierka w sklepach pojawiła się coca cola". "za (czasów) dyrektora Karwowskiego tu panował idealny porządek".
> 
> But I don't have an impression that it's outdated.


Neither do I.


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## Oletta

Lorenc said:


> I've come across the expression _za dnia_ meaning 'during the daytime' (w dzień, w ciągu dnia).
> I'd like to know how common it is and if it sounds old-fashioned.
> Grammatically it seems to me that there are some oscillations on the case to use after 'za' in expressions meaning 'during':
> (...)
> Okay, perhaps the last example doesn't count because the form is fossilized.



Yes, it is still used, similarly _za pierwszym razem_, _za drugim razem_ etc. - "during the first time", "during the second time" and so on. Whereas, in the comtemporary world, _za panowania króla _or _dynastii _is changed into _za kadencji prezydenta_, _burmistrza _or wójta .


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## Lorenc

Ben Jamin said:


> *młod** (adjective, completely obsolete form of nominative, contemporary *młody*), młodu* (obsolete form of genitive, contemporary *młodego).*



Interesting. So in old-Polish short forms of adjectives had full conjugation? can you provide a full conjugation table?


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## jasio

Lorenc said:


> Interesting. So in old-Polish short forms of adjectives had full conjugation? can you provide a full conjugation table?


Based on Ben Jamin's original post:


Ben Jamin said:


> *Młod *was declined like the noun *miód*


it could go like this: miód – Wikisłownik, wolny słownik wielojęzyczny. Except that it would probably have two forms of accusative to match male-personal and non-male-personal nouns.
I'm curious though, why it was not spelled with "ó" - like the said "miód" and a similar word, "młódź" (a collective noun for youth). Hadn't it ended with a yer - which would have lead to a compensatory lengthening of a vowel and ultimately to "ó"?


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## Ben Jamin

jasio said:


> Based on Ben Jamin's original post:
> 
> it could go like this: miód – Wikisłownik, wolny słownik wielojęzyczny. Except that it would probably have two forms of accusative to match male-personal and non-male-personal nouns.
> I'm curious though, why it was not spelled with "ó" - like the said "miód" and a similar word, "młódź" (a collective noun for youth). Hadn't it ended with a yer - which would have lead to a compensatory lengthening of a vowel and ultimately to "ó"?


I think that the pronounciation of both *młod *and *miod *included the same vowel in the times when the short forms of adjectives were widely used. When the o in miod changed from long open /ɔ:/ to a closed /o/ and later to /u/ written ó, the short adjective forms went out of use.
I am also not sure if the distiction between animate and inanimate masculine was  already in function in the times when the short forms of adjectives were widely used.


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## Eirwyn

Ben Jamin said:


> młodu* (obsolete form of genitive, contemporary *młodego)*


This is quite interesting. As far as I know, Proto-Slavic used the o-declension pattern for short male forms of adjectives, so the original genitive for "młód" was supposed to be "młoda". I wonder how far the expansion of the u-declension endings had gone before short adjectives became obsolete.


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## Ben Jamin

Eirwyn said:


> This is quite interesting. As far as I know, Proto-Slavic used the o-declension pattern for short male forms of adjectives, so the original genitive for "młód" was supposed to be "młoda". I wonder how far the expansion of the u-declension endings had gone before short adjectives became obsolete.


This can mean that "za młodu" doesn't use the genitive, but another case. Which could it be?  Dative?


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## jasio

Ben Jamin said:


> I think that the pronounciation of both *młod *and *miod *included the same vowel in the times when the short forms of adjectives were widely used. When the o in miod changed from long open /ɔ:/ to a closed /o/ and later to /u/ written ó, the short adjective forms went out of use.


Makes sense. 


Ben Jamin said:


> I am also not sure if the distiction between animate and inanimate masculine was already in function in the times when the short forms of adjectives were widely used.


So when is it dated, in your opinion?


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## Eirwyn

Ben Jamin said:


> This can mean that "za młodu" doesn't use the genitive, but another case. Which could it be?  Dative?


Yes, dative. But are there any sources stating that "za" could be used with dative in the past? Considering that short adjectives shared the declension patterns of nouns, it makes total sense to expect them to evolve by the same path nouns did.


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