# Norwegian: Etter klabb og babb



## Grefsen

I just attempted to read the following update from a 'fotball' report and have absolutely no idea what 'Etter klabb og babb' means in English:  


> Kjempesjanse til bortelaget. *Etter klabb og babb* inne i sekstenmeteren til Team Strømmen får en Klepp-spiller ballen tre meter fra mål. Men på mirakuløst vis klarer hun å sette ballen høyt over målet til Ingrid Bruserud.


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## kirsitn

Well, I can't really think of a with a direct translation, but the meaning is that they screwed things up/were clumsy/made a lot of (stupid/unnecessary) mistakes/things went pearshaped. 

The origin of the expression is a Norwegian TV show for children from the 70s.


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## Grefsen

kirsitn said:


> Well, I can't really think of a with a direct translation, but the meaning is that they screwed things up/were clumsy/made a lot of (stupid/unnecessary) mistakes/things went pearshaped.
> 
> The origin of the expression is a Norwegian TV show for children from the 70s.



'Tusen takk' for such an informative reply.    I thought that from the context it was used in that *klabb og babb* probably didn't have very a positive meaning, but I would have never guessed that this expression came from a children's television show from the 70's.


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## Grefsen

kirsitn said:


> Well, I can't really think of a with a direct translation, but the meaning is that they screwed things up/were clumsy/made a lot of (stupid/unnecessary) mistakes/things went pearshaped.
> 
> The origin of the expression is a Norwegian TV show for children from the 70s.



Here's my attempt at translating the following:



> Kjempesjanse til bortelaget. *Etter klabb og babb* inne i sekstenmeteren til Team Strømmen får en Klepp-spiller ballen tre meter fra mål. Men på mirakuløst vis klarer hun å sette ballen høyt over målet til Ingrid Bruserud.




Big chances for the visiting team.  After making some stupid mistakes inside the penalty area (16.5 meter box) of Team Strømmen, a Klepp player received the ball 3 meters in front of the goal.  But miraculously she put the ball high over the goal of Ingrid Bruserud.


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## sigjak

kirsitn said:


> The origin of the expression is a Norwegian TV show for children from the 70s.


I think that the expression "klabb og babb" (=grand confusion/big mess) is much older than the TV series. The leading characters of that series were probably given the names Klabb and Babb because the meaning of the expression was already well known, and very characteristic for the two guys creating so much 'klabb og babb'.


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## kirsitn

Hm, yes, you're probably right. I've been trying to find the origin of the expression, but for once there doesn't seem to be any relevant information on google, and bokmålsordboka only states that the expression means "mess, disorder".


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## sigjak

I have not found the origin either, but I am old enough to have known the expression long before the TV series... And it is also mentioned in a diccionary from the 1960s.
May be it's origin can be related to "klabbing, å klabbe", which has something to do with "wet and sticky" ('klabbeføre' when skiing), and "babbel, babling, å bable" (to babble, to chatter away, talk nonsense)????


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## kirsitn

Maybe the most likely explanation is that the klabb comes from å klabbe, whereas the babb was added because it rhymes?


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## Grefsen

sigjak said:


> I have not found the origin either, but I am old enough to have known the expression long before the TV series... And it is also mentioned in a diccionary from the 1960s.
> May be it's origin can be related to "klabbing, å klabbe", which has something to do with "wet and sticky" ('klabbeføre' when skiing), and "babbel, babling, å bable" (to babble, to chatter away, talk nonsense)????





kirsitn said:


> Maybe the most likely explanation is that the klabb comes from å klabbe, whereas the babb was added because it rhymes?



'Tusen takk' to both *sigjak* and *kirsitn* for all of this information about this expression *klabb og babb*.    The next time I see or hear *klabb og babb* used, not only will I know what is meant by it, but now I also know what some of the possible origins of this expression are.


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## Spectre scolaire

Idiomatic expressions in which a word is being repeated with a slightly modified structure seem to be quite common in most languages. The modification usually (but not always) implies a change of vowel like in English zigzag, whimwham, ticktack, pingpong, flip-flap, dillydally, clip-clop, clitter-clatter. Unfortunately, such doublets are not always registered in dictionaries – a couple of these words are not in my edition of Webster! – and the reason is probably that they are considered to be “childish” or somehow “primitive”. Written language is a serious matter...

In a language like Turkish there is an impressive amount of doublets of this kind. They are commonly used in both spoken and written language, and the _Türk Dil Kurumu_, the “Turkish Language Association” – an official “language watchdog”, as it were – is consistently registering them in a two volume Turkish Dictionary edited on a yearly basis. One might look at such words as a good indication of a grass-root language policy. 

An interesting feature regarding such doublets is the fact that they often are limited to a very restricted usage. Many Turkish doublets are linked to particular verbs, and quite often the splitting up of these doublets is impossible. One of the two words simply does not mean anything. This is an argument that will be used in the following.

Of course, these words are often onomatopoetic.

I am surprised that nobody seems to be aware of the fact that Norwegian klabb og babb – as it is treated in the discussion – most probably is non-idiomatic! 

My point is that doublets of this kind – even if they constitute a popular lexical stratum – are indeed contextually organized as any other word. I googled _klabb og babb_ and browsed through 444 instances of the expression. The result does not correspond to what Bokmålsordboka http://www.dokpro.uio.no/ordboksoek.html says s.v. _klabb_:




> klabb m1 (av *_klamp_) *1* klump, kladd _ha k-er under skiene_ *2* _k- og babb_ rot, virvar


 klabb is a word, *babb is not – at least not in its own right.

Then, what is wrong?

In a statistically more than just ‘significant’ number of cases this expression does not occur on its own, but “always” together with some sort of adjective indicating a degree:

mye klabb og babb | litt klabb og babb | en del klabb og babb | masse klabb og babb |
noe klabb og babb | enda mer klabb og babb | veldig[sic] [sc. mye?] klabb og babb​(mykje and nokke were found as dialectal varieties or _nynorsk_)​ 
It is only – as far as I am able to judge – only _secondarily_ that the expression ends up as an adjective:​ 
en ordentlig klabb og babb-situasjon | en farlig klabb og babb-situasjon |
masse useriøse klabb og babb-tilfeller | sånne klabb og babb-klovner​ 
In the end, we see a noun emerging – but only some very few cases were found. I think I excerpted all of them:​ 
fem minutter før slutt blir det klabb og babb | Det ender med klabb og babb |
da blir det fort klabb og babb | humoristisk klabb og babb under konserten
[whatever that’s supposed to mean] | klabb og babb i feltet​ 
The last usage worth mentioning(?) – only 1% of all cases! – is a splitting up of the two words:

både klabb og babb​ 
As _sigjak_ has already pointed out, it seems fairly obvious that “Klabb og Babb” being a name of a tv program, cannot possibly have preceded the expression _klabb og babb_ which probably cropped up in the first place as _sport terminology_ (most likely related to skiing). There it seems to have remained. Cases without reference to sport seem totally insignificant.​ 
Conclusion: The heading of this thread, “etter klabb og babb”, is non-idiomatic. In a crushing majority of the cases examined, _klabb og babb_ needs an adjective indicating a degree.​ A lot of klabb & babb about nothing... ​


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## kirsitn

Spectre scolaire said:


> ..._klabb og babb_ which probably cropped up in the first place as _sport terminology_ (most likely related to skiing). There it seems to have remained. Cases without reference to sport seem totally insignificant.



Apparently there's a difference between what's published on the internet and spoken language because I would use the expression to describe any situation where something went slightly wrong.


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## sigjak

kirsitn said:


> Apparently there's a difference between what's published on the internet and spoken language because I would use the expression to describe any situation where something went slightly wrong.


I agree.


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## Spectre scolaire

kirsitn said:
			
		

> Apparently there's a difference between what's published on the internet and spoken language because I would use the expression to describe any situation where something went slightly wrong.


 a) I strongly doubt whether there would be any discrepancy between oral and written usage of such a popular expression. That would challenge what I said initially about this kind of constructions: Once you find _klabb og babb_ in a dictionary, --




			
				Spectre scolaire said:
			
		

> [O]ne might look at such words as a good indication of a grass-root language policy.


 b) I am not concerned about the semantic aspect of the expression.

c) My post was devoted to what turned out to be an _empirical_ fact: “etter klabb og babb” is _arguably_ non-idiomatic.




			
				Spectre scolaire said:
			
		

> In a crushing majority of the cases examined, _klabb og babb_ needs an adjective indicating a degree.


 I now modify my statement with the word _arguably_, realizing that this expression _is_ being used, but the question is whether _etter klabb og babb_ is in fact _elliptic_. 

Consider the following two expressions:
_på kort/lang/lengre sikt_*) versus _på sikt_​ 
_etter litt/mye/masse klabb og babb_ versus _etter klabb og babb_​ 
*) “in a short/long/longer perspective” contrastively to a perspective without defining its limits.​ 
There is a general consensus – shared by even moderate language planners – that “på sikt” is absurd – and yet, it is being widely used. 

The expresson _etter klabb og babb_ may equally be widely used, but my material indicates that it is most probably elliptic. This has nothing to do with semantics. Normally, _klabb og babb_ requires an adjective indicating a degree.

Etter en del klabb og babb, I think we may have reached some sort of consensus. 

I’d like to hear in what way the material I found on internet would not correspond to common oral usage.  I might have to change my perception about this type of expressions.
 ​


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## kirsitn

Spectre said:
			
		

> I’d like to hear in what way the material I found on internet would not correspond to common oral usage.  I might have to change my perception about this type of expressions.



My only objection was to your understanding of the expression as mainly related to sports, since I (and many others) use it in lots of situations which have nothing to do with sports. (For instance if something goes wrong at work.)



			
				Spectre said:
			
		

> There is a general consensus – shared by even moderate language planners – that “på sikt” is absurd – and yet, it is being widely used.



When I hear "på sikt" I immediately translate it as "på lengre/lang sikt". I would never say "på sikt" if I meant "på kort sikt".


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## Spectre scolaire

kirsitn said:
			
		

> My only objection was to your understanding of the expression as mainly related to sports, since I (and many others) use it in lots of situations which have nothing to do with sports. (For instance if something goes wrong at work.)


 OK, I suppose I missed some examples of non-sport related ‘klabb og babb’ when browsing through internet - hopefully a sufficiently reliable source to provide adequate information on the issue. 




			
				kirsitn said:
			
		

> When I hear "på sikt" I immediately translate it as "på lengre/lang sikt". I would never say "på sikt" if I meant "på kort sikt".


 Would this adamant refusal to say “på sikt” be extrapolated into not saying “etter klabb og babb”?

The reason for my interference in this thread in the first place was to focus on the _use_ / _non-use_ of what is marked in blue:

mye klabb og babb | litt klabb og babb | en del klabb og babb | masse klabb og babb |
noe klabb og babb | enda mer klabb og babb | veldig[sic] [sc. mye?] klabb og babb​ 
 -litt klabb og babb, ikke så mye... ​


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## kirsitn

Spectre scolaire said:


> Would this adamant refusal to say “på sikt” be extrapolated into not saying “etter klabb og babb”?



I do actually say "på sikt", at least sometimes, but never if the meaning is "på kort sikt". Don't think I would say "etter klabb og babb", though - I agree that it doesn't sound right without some kind of quantifier - "etter litt klabb og babb" or the like.


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## Spectre scolaire

> I do actually say "på sikt", at least sometimes, but never if the meaning is "på kort sikt". Don't think I would say "etter klabb og babb", though – I agree that it doesn't sound right without some kind of quantifier - "etter litt klabb og babb" or the like.


Well, this seems to round up the debate. Now _Grefsen_ should catch his trikk.
 Doesn’t that tram look pretty old and defunct?... ​


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