# 李さんは(が?)言いました



## flyingcat2008

おはよう、わたしはこの 日本語forum　初めて　へ来ます　。

Hi, everyone!

ＮO1.「日本語を勉強するのは、楽しいです。」と、李さん*は*言いました。
NO2. 背の高い男の人*が*、「田中さんですか。代表団の李です。」と言いました。

I have read some rule about ha and ga, but still meet many problems in readings

In above sentence, ha and ga are interchangable?

By the way:
日本語を勉強*するのは、楽しいです*  VS 日本語を勉強するの*が 楽しみです。*
*right?*

ありがどう　ございます：）


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## Takashi

You are asking a very difficult question. Let me answer some of it.
And let's see what others say.

No.1 and 2 are interchangeable in these cases with slightly different
tone or nuance. I'm sorry I can't explain why.


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## SpiceMan

はとがのニュアンスの違いは難しいですね、今でも説明する自信がないけど、やってみます。簡単に言えば、強調の違いだと思います
The different nuance of ha and ga is difficult. I still don't have much confidence in trying to explain it but I'll try it. Put simply, I think it's a different stress.

日本語の勉強は楽しいです　⇒　日本語は話題で、「楽しい」と言うことは強調されています
In 日本語の勉強は楽しいです, 日本語 is the topic, and 「楽しい」 is being remarked.

日本語の勉強が楽しいです　⇒　「日本語の勉強」は強調されています
In 日本語の勉強が楽しいです, 「日本語の勉強」 is being stressed.

1つ目は「日本語の勉強はどうですか」と聞かれる時に答えそうです。
The first sentence might be the answer to "How do you feel/What do you think of studying Japanese?"

一方2つ目は「なにが楽しいですか」と聞かれるときに答えそうですね。
While in the second one, might be the answer to "What is interesting/fun to you?".

と言うことで、
That is to say,



> ＮO1.「日本語を勉強するのは、楽しいです。」と、李さん*は*言いました。


誰が言ったより、言った事を伝えています。李さん
More important than who said it, what is being told is what Lee (did) said. 



> NO2. 背の高い男の人*が*、「田中さんですか。代表団の李です。」と言いました。


何を言ったより、誰が言ったのを伝えています。背の高い男の人
Rather than what was said, who said it is being told.

- 教室であんたはボケだといったよ！
- Someone just said in the classroom that you are dumb!

- なんだとぉ～
- WHAT?!?!? 

(教室で)
(in the classroom)

- オレはボケだと、誰が言ったんだ？！
- Who said I'm dumb?!
- オレが！
- I did!

When someone told me I was being called dumb, he used は because the important thing was telling me WHAT was said.
But when I entered the room, I was interested in WHO said it.
When the one who said it replied "I did!", the important thing is that HE said it.

PS: I'm fully aware that the nuance difference goes beyond stress but I think that, at first, thinking a bit this way does help -and not little- when starting to study Japanese.


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## Ocham

Spiceman's advice is to the point and very kind.
Hundreds of sample sentences are needed to make
a clear distinction between _ha_ and _ga_. 
Learning the difference between _ha _and _ga _is one of the most
important part in Japanese grammar. 

Spicemanのadviceはto the pointでkindだ。haとgaを明確に区別する
にはhundreds of sentencesが必要だ。
haとgaの違いを学ぶこと はJapanese grammarのthe most importantな
partだ。

In these sentences, _ha_ and _ga_ are NOT interchaneable.


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## Flaminius

欢迎光临WR日文论坛, *飞翔的猫儿*!  

*SpiceMan*さんの説明を要約すると、「は」はそれ以降を強調し、「が」は修飾する名詞を強調するといえるでしょう。
Summarising *SpiceMan*'s explanations, I think _-wa_ emphasizes what follows it and _-ga_ emphasizes the noun it modifies.



> NO1.「日本語を勉強するのは、楽しいです。」と、李さん*は*言いました。
> NO2. 背の高い男の人*が*、「田中さんですか。代表団の李です。」と言いました。


特別な文脈がない限り、NO1では「は」を使って「李さん」を強調しない文のほうが自然な表現です。またNO2では「が」を使って「背の高い男の人」を強調する文が自然です。
Unless special context is provided, NO1 is more natural an expression to use _-wa_, thus deflecting emphasis from 李さん.  Similarly in NO2, the sentence is more natural if one uses _-ga_ to emphasize 背の高い男の人.

NO1でなぜ「李さん」を強調しないかというと、「李さん」と呼ぶこと自体が既にこの人物の説明になっているからです。前提として、この人物が何者であるか既にわかっていて、彼が何をしているのかに今は関心があるのです。
The reason NO1 does not emphasize 李さん is that by calling him 李さん, we have already given some explanation about this person.  Who he is is already known as a premise and we are now interested in what he is doing.

NO2では「が」によって、「田中さんですか。代表団の李です」といった人物に焦点が当てられています。この人物が発話の場に初めて登場したので、何者であるか説明する必要があることを意味します。事実、この人のことは、「背の高い男の人」という描写で説明されています。

NO2, by virtue of _-ga_, focuses on the person who said 「田中さんですか。代表団の李です」.  This means that the person has been brought into the utterance for the first time and that explanations should be made as to who he is.  In fact, the description 背の高い男の人 accounts for him.

このように、「は」と「が」には、西欧語の定・不定(例えば、英語のthe 対 aのような)に類似の違いがあると理解することも可能です。
As we have seen, the difference between _-wa_ and _-ga_ may be understood as something similar to that between definite and indefinite in European languages (e.g., the vs. a in English).



flyingcat2008 said:


> By the way:
> 日本語を勉強*するのは、楽しいです*  VS 日本語を勉強するの*が 楽しみです。*
> *right?*
> 
> ありが*と*う　ございます：）


正解です。「楽しいです」は現在のことを表しますから、「日本語を勉強するの」は既知の事実であり定といえます。したがって「は」が自然。「楽しみです」は将来のことを表しますから、「日本語を勉強するの」は予測、推定であり不定といえます。したがって「が」が自然。
Correct.  楽しいです being a reference to the present, 日本語を勉強するの is a known fact and, therefore, definite.  So, _-wa_ is more natural.  楽しみです being a reference to the future, 日本語を勉強するの is a conjecture or inference and, therefore, indefinite.  So, _-ga_ is more natural.


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## nhk9

Get this book by Harvard Japanese Prof Jay Rubin:

Making Sense of Japanese: What the Textbooks Don't Tell You 


You would be able to learn all you need to know about this wa vs ga topic.


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## Morrow

flyingcat2008 said:


> By the way:
> 日本語を勉強*するのは、楽しいです*  VS 日本語を勉強するの*が 楽しみです。*
> *right?*


Hi, flyingcat2008

Indeed, "...は楽しい"  and "...が楽しみ" are the norm.  But as with most rules, there are some exceptions.  I think "...が楽しみ"　belongs to the same verb pattern as "...が好き/...が嫌い," as in "僕は英語*が*好きだ/私は日本語*が*嫌いだ."   If we add some modification to the former, we can change its status to that of the latter: 日本語を勉強するの*が*楽しくて仕方(が)ない。　And if we introduce some kind of contrast, we can also use "が" in the former: 初めのうちは苦痛でしたが、今では、日本語を勉強するの*が*楽しいです。 
And for the latter, you can use "は" when introducing a topic is what you want to do: 今年のアカデミー賞*は*楽しみです。ブランシェットは主演女優賞を取れると思います？The same holds true when there is a contrast:日本語を勉強するのは苦痛ですが、中国語を勉強するの*は*楽しみです。李先生の教え方がとてもうまいからです。

Morrow


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## Morrow

flyingcat2008 said:


> NO1.「日本語を勉強するのは、楽しいです。」と、李さん*は*言いました。


Hi, flyingcat2008

I think it would be better if you tried to think about this in terms of context (but not with just a single sentence in mind).

Note that both (2a) and (2b) can follow (1).
(1) 「日本語を勉強するのは、楽しいです。」と、李さん*は*言いました。
(2) a. でも、私たちの前では、李さん*は*「日本語の勉強なんかもう嫌だ」と言っています。
     b. 次に質問された私*は*、「日本語を勉強するのは、楽しくないです。」と言いました。
When (2a) follows (1), "は" is a topic marker.  You're talking about "李さん."  However, if (2b) follows (1), "は" is used to enumerate or list other members of the same group that "李さん" belongs to.  You're now talking about what each student thinks about learning Japanese.

And how about "が"?
Both (4a) and (4b) can come before (3).  

(3)「日本語を勉強するのは、楽しいです。」と、李さん*が*言いました。
(4) a. 「日本語の勉強はどう?」ときかれましたが、最初、*誰も何も*言いませんでした。しばらくして、
　　　b.「日本語の勉強はどう?」ときかれて、クラスのみんなは、「日本語を勉強するのは、楽しくないです」と言いました。でも、*一人だけ*、
As for the former, "が" introduces a new topic in the discourse.  Your addressees have not heard about "李さん"　earlier in your story. (Strictly speaking, there is another possibility where they have heard about each and every student, and are now expected to identify who said that.)
Finally, when (4b) is followed by (3),  "が" puts the focus on "李さん."  You're saying that "李さん" is the one who said that (=it was "李さん" and not anyone else who said that).

In my understanding, you should consider the information preceding and/or following the sentence you're talking about to decide which works better(_or_ for that matter, whether both can work equally).

Morrow


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## Flaminius

nhk9 said:


> Get this book by Harvard Japanese Prof Jay Rubin:



Hello,
Maybe you could kindly reproduce some of Prof. Rubin's arguments as they pertain to the current example sentences for those of us for whom the œuvre is not immediately available?


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## flyingcat2008

Thank you,all!!

The "ga" and "ha" is really difficult!

I was always told that the concept of topic and subject, acturally ,until now I don't understand well about" topic"?I really want to figure out what's the equal concept in chinese~~
Can somebody introduce me english webside ,or other japanese web


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## nhk9

Flaminius said:


> Hello,
> Maybe you could kindly reproduce some of Prof. Rubin's arguments as they pertain to the current example sentences for those of us for whom the œuvre is not immediately available?


 

I read it a long time ago so I am afraid I wouldn't be able to do so.  However, I do remember that it was a book written for the masses, so one would feel at ease when reading the book.  It's not academic literature with tons of rules regarding the ha vs ga topic by any means.

I do think that the ha and ga problem will become less annoying as one improves his/her Japanese skills.  If one tries to memorize all the rules at the beginning, he/she would very likely go crazy.  Same thing can be said for the nara/ba/tara/to (conditionals) problem.

Here are some rules that perhaps can be useful if memorized.  These are just some of my observations, so always do your own due-diligence! 

1)
A ga tabeta -> answers the question "who ate it?"
A ha tabeta -> answers the question "what did A do?"

2)
Ha is used when contrasting something against another thing.

ex. Tokyo ha samui. Dakedo, Hongkong ha mushiatsui.

3)
Ga is used when introducing a new subject

ex. Boku no Heya ni, dareka ga kita.  "someone (that I wasn't expecting/ that I don't know etc.) came into my room"

4)
Ha can be used with other particles, whereas ga cannot.
boku ni ha, chikara ga aru.  "I have the power"

5)
ga is used in a relative clause (or sometimes in written Japanese, replaced with 'no') very often.

ninki ga aru bando (or ninki no aru bando) -> a band that's famous

6) the subject introduced by ga has something do with the (single) clause that it's associated with, but the topic introduced by can associate itself with the (many) subsequent clauses in the sentence, perhaps all the way until the period mark.

7) Ha is usually used quite often in questions and in the negative.  

8) In colloquial Japanese, quite often ha can be replaced with "tte".  This is why you may not hear "ha" as often as "ga".  Furthermore, the topic that ha introduces often is already known, so "___ha" is often omitted. The Japanese beginner tend to overuse ha.

etc...


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## Flaminius

I am sorry my response is way too late but what a great summary!  

This is by far the best account of _ga _/ _ha_ (or _wa_, as I prefer writing it) differences ever written in the forum.


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