# Urdu: shiin qaaf (se) durust honaa



## Qureshpor

Urdu has an idiom "shiin qaaf (se) durust honaa", implying someone's language bearing all the hallmarks of correct pronunciation. I would suggest that perhaps "qaaf" is mispronounced more often than "shiin". As a matter of interest, in what areas or communities in the Subcontinent would we find "shiin" pronounced as "siin"? Depending on the answers, is there no "shiin" sound in the indigenous language/s of the "siin" sound speakers?


----------



## lcfatima

I would think the idiom was more in reference to speakers who pronounce siin as shiin, since that seems to be a more widespread switch than shiin to siin.


----------



## lcfatima

As for speakers whom I have observed regularly articulating /sh/ as /s/, I know I have heard Nepalese do that in Hindi, although I can't say for certain that they all spoke the same Nepali language.


----------



## UrduMedium

I have only heard _shiin qaaf durust honaa_, without _se _in between.

I have noticed one Oriya speaker (the only one I know) have a hard time with _shiin._


----------



## tonyspeed

QURESHPOR said:


> Urdu has an idiom "shiin qaaf (se) durust honaa", implying someone's language bearing all the hallmarks of correct pronunciation. I would suggest that perhaps "qaaf" is mispronounced more often than "shiin". As a matter of interest, in what areas or communities in the Subcontinent would we find "shiin" pronounced as "siin"? Depending on the answers, is there no "shiin" sound in the indigenous language/s of the "siin" sound speakers?


  I have heard a Gujarati speaker pronounce all his sh's as s's.  

The phenomenon is also encountered from time-to-time on Hindi TV.  Actress Nehha Mehta playing Anjali Mehta on the show "Taarak Mehta Ka Oolta Chashma" always uses 's' instead of "sh".  For an example see "Taarak Mehta Ka Oolta Chasma 23rd May 2011 part 2" 7:17. 


By the way: The show is set in Gujarat.


----------



## Qureshpor

UrduMedium said:


> I have only heard _shiin qaaf durust honaa_, without _se _in between.
> 
> I have noticed one Oriya speaker (the only one I know) have a hard time with _shiin._


Believe it or not, janaab-i-Sarwar Alam Raz SaaHib has come to my assistance in matters concerning Urdu usage once again!

http://sarwarraz.com/images/opinion/Koozahgar.pdf

" baazaar ke sabzee-farrosh kuNjRe se Lucknow aur Dillee kee shustah-o-shaa,istah, sheen-qaaf se durust zabaan kehalwaanaa aisaa hee maZ^Hakah-Khez samajh`taa 
hooN jaise afsaaneh ke kisee kirdaar ke :dil-badal: (Heart Transplant) operation ke 
nateejeh meN yeh taSawwur qaar,ieen ke saamne pesh karnaa keh is a’mal ke 
nateejeh meN us kirdaar kaa Zehn-o-dimaaGh, aKhlaaq-o-kirdaar badal kar us 
shaKhs ke ho jaaYeN jis kaa dil us ke seene meN lagayaa gayaa hai.”   

In fact the actual idiom is "shiin qaaf durust nah honaa", based on which one gets variations on the theme.

Thank you for the Oriya speaker's example.


----------



## UrduMedium

Also just happened to talk to a Nepalese speaker who was consistently saying _shiin _for _siin_.


----------



## marrish

Since the target language is defined as Urdu, let me make this disclaimer that I'd like to take the liberty like others before me have done, to mentionI had the pleasure to talk to some Hindi speakers who used to have [s] when I'd have expected [sh] but unfortunately (for this thread's purposes) I wasn't inquisive after their geographical whereabouts.


----------



## tonyspeed

Another post on this forum mentions areas of Punjab as well: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=894842&p=4774751#post4774751


----------



## tonyspeed

According to scholars the PraKrit languages lacked SH (except Magadhi). See  Introduction to Prakrit by Alfred C Woolner.

So I guess we can say "sh" is a "foreign" consonant as well.


----------



## panjabigator

> As a matter of interest, in what areas or communities in the Subcontinent would we find "shiin" pronounced as "siin"?



I take it we are not limiting ourselves just to Urdu, no? I've heard "sh" become "s" in by some Punjabi speakers before. As far as I know, you cannot find the "sh" phoneme in the Guru Granth Sahib.


----------



## Qureshpor

lcfatima said:


> I would think the idiom was more in reference to speakers who pronounce siin as shiin, since that seems to be a more widespread switch than shiin to siin.


Interesting. I always took it to mean that speech in which "shiin" is pronounced as "siin" and I did n't know that "siin" to "shiin" switch was more widespread.


----------



## Qureshpor

tonyspeed said:


> I have heard a Gujarati speaker pronounce all his sh's as s's.
> 
> The phenomenon is also encountered from time-to-time on Hindi TV.  Actress Nehha Mehta playing Anjali Mehta on the show "Taarak Mehta Ka Oolta Chashma" always uses 's' instead of "sh".  For an example see "Taarak Mehta Ka Oolta Chasma 23rd May 2011 part 2" 7:17.
> 
> By the way: The show is set in Gujarat.


Interestingly, the trigger for this thread was the speech of an Indian TV reporter whom I heard pronounce Shastri as Shastri as well as Sastri, in the same report. For a moment I thought the ph/f phenomenon was repeating itself. I don't know the ethnicity of the reporter. It was in a Youtube video concerning the theory that Lal Bahadur Shastri, the second Indian Prime Minister was poisoned in Tashkent and did not die of a heart attack.


----------



## Faylasoof

I too have heard many Nepalese speakers, quite a few Hindiphones use 'siin' instead of 'shiin'. Most of my Gujarati friends also do the same, including those who are from Karachi where Urduphones are numerous.


----------



## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> Believe it or not, janaab-i-Sarwar Alam Raz SaaHib has come to my assistance in matters concerning Urdu usage once again!
> 
> http://sarwarraz.com/images/opinion/Koozahgar.pdf
> 
> " baazaar ke sabzee-farrosh kuNjRe se Lucknow aur Dillee kee shustah-o-shaa,istah, sheen-qaaf se durust zabaan kehalwaanaa aisaa hee maZ^Hakah-Khez samajh`taa
> hooN jaise afsaaneh ke kisee kirdaar ke :dil-badal: (Heart Transplant) operation ke
> nateejeh meN yeh taSawwur qaar,ieen ke saamne pesh karnaa keh is a’mal ke
> nateejeh meN us kirdaar kaa Zehn-o-dimaaGh, aKhlaaq-o-kirdaar badal kar us
> shaKhs ke ho jaaYeN jis kaa dil us ke seene meN lagayaa gayaa hai.”
> 
> In fact the actual idiom is "shiin qaaf durust nah honaa", based on which one gets variations on the theme.
> 
> Thank you for the Oriya speaker's example.



QP SaaHib, with all regards and respects to janaab-i-Sarwar Alam Raz SaaHib,  _"sheen-qaaf se durust honaa_" sounds odd if not _Ghair durust urduu_ to my ears! 

_shiin-qaaf *kaa* durust honaa_ would make every sense. However, _shiin-qaaf durust honaa_ is the way we say it, and as for _shiin-qaaf durust nah honaa_, this too is correct - the two being opposites - but mostly used less than the former at least when we speak. Unless of course we wish to emphasize the lack of correctness by putting in the _nah_.


----------



## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> QP SaaHib, with all regards and respects to janaab-i-Sarwar Alam Raz SaaHib,  _"sheen-qaaf se durust honaa_" sounds odd if not _Ghair durust urduu_ to my ears! _shiin-qaaf *kaa* durust honaa_ would make every sense.



Without digressing too much...I don't believe "shiin-qaaf se durust" is "Ghair-durust", at least from a grammatical perspective.

1) Urdu zabaan bolte vaqt "shiin-qaaf durust honaa" laazimii hai.

2) duusre log maaneN yaa nah maaneN, agar Faylasoof SaaHib kii zabaan "shiin qaaf se durust" nahiiN to samajh liijiye kih kisii kii bhii durust nahiiN!!

The first sentence can be rephrased with a "kaa" as you have suggested. 

Urdu ke talaffuz meN "shiin-qaaf kaa durust honaa" laazimii hai.

Similarly "se" can be added where it implies "ke liHaaz se", "kii nisbat se".

agar us QP kaa talaffuz "shiin-qaaf se durust" hai to ham ise apnii anjuman meN jagah de sakte haiN. varnah jaa'e Kala Shah Kaku meN!


----------



## marrish

I agree with the preceding, but still, what I've heard is the variant without _se_. I notice that you have put se in brackets, considering it optional from the very beginning, so I don't think we have an issue here. In the contemporary environment this idiom is no longer valid any more, in my opinion, as Urdu speakers don't have any difficulties with [s]/[sh] in general. I believe this saying used to be of application regarding the speech of Urdu speakers as a second language, who would normally have difficulty with those sounds because of their linguistic background, like some Hindi or Gujarati speakers, as mentioned in this thread. Of course the _qaaf_ negligence is rampant. I can't recall any other pronunciation stumbling block so that it might replace '_shiin_' in this expression.


----------



## fdb

Broadly speaking, I think that modern Indo-Aryan languages have either /s/ or /ʃ/, but not both, with /s/ mainly in the West and /ʃ/ mainly in the East (Bengali). But this is true only of “inherited” words. Loanwords from Sanskrit, Persian, Arabic, English have both /s/ and /ʃ/ and they are distinguished or not depending on the register. Would you say that this is correct?


----------



## Qureshpor

fdb said:


> Broadly speaking, I think that modern Indo-Aryan languages have either /s/ or /ʃ/, but not both, with /s/ mainly in the West and /ʃ/ mainly in the East (Bengali). But this is true only of “inherited” words. Loanwords from Sanskrit, Persian, Arabic, English have both /s/ and /ʃ/ and they are distinguished or not depending on the register. Would you say that this is correct?


I tried to think of any Punjabi words containing the "shiin" sound but not being of Persian or Arabic origins. And I could n't! I am currently looking through some Classical Punjabi literature but so far have come across one solitary word!! And that is "shiiN" (lion). I will also be the first to admit that I have never head this word used in speech, sher is the everyday word. I shall get back if I find another shiin word!

Edit: Just thought of one! In my childhood we had a "shriiN" tree in our garden. I don't know what it would be in English.


----------



## Wolverine9

QURESHPOR said:


> I tried to think of any Punjabi words containing the "shiin" sound but not being of Persian or Arabic origins. And I could n't! I am currently looking through some Classical Punjabi literature but so far have come across one solitary word!! And that is "shiiN" (lion). I will also be the first to admit that I have never head this word used in speech, sher is the everyday word. I shall get back if I find another shiin word!



I think shiiN is just a pronunciation variant of siNh/siiNh


----------



## Qureshpor

Wolverine9 said:


> I think shiiN is just a pronunciation variant of siNh/siiNh


Yes, I had the same inclination. Nevertheless, we have a "sh" word in Punjabi which is not Persian or Arabic. Are you aware of the other word I have mentioned, "shriiN" (the tone is on the second half of the word). By the way, I should have spelt the word as "shiiNh".


----------



## Wolverine9

No, I haven't heard of shriiN.  There are other words, such as shakti, but they could be direct borrowings from Sanskrit rather than inherited.


----------



## Qureshpor

Wolverine9 said:


> No, I haven't heard of shriiN.  There are other words, such as shakti, but they could be direct borrowings from Sanskrit rather than inherited.


We seem to be going away from the original title of the thread although one could say that presence or absence of a "sh" (and a qaaf) sound could affect the way a particular community pronounces its "shiins" (and qaafs). 

Here is another.."shuhdaa/shohdaa" (helpless = be-chaarah). I don't know of its etymology.


----------



## Faylasoof

All said and done, there is a difference between:

_kisii chiiz kaa kisii chiiz se durust honaa _

… and

_kisii chiiz kaa kisii chiiz ke leHaaZ se durust honaa_

_us kaa talaffuz shiin-qaaf ke leHaaZ se durust hai_  --- this is how we say it.


----------



## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> All said and done, there is a difference between:
> 
> _kisii chiiz kaa kisii chiiz se durust honaa _
> 
> … and
> 
> _kisii chiiz kaa kisii chiiz ke leHaaZ se durust honaa_
> 
> _us kaa talaffuz shiin-qaaf ke leHaaZ se durust hai_  --- this is how we say it.


Faylasoof SaaHib, let us agree to disagree on our stand points. For me "shiin qaaf se durust" is correct and it means "shiin qaaf ke liHaaz se durust".

As a matter of interest, I contacted janaab-i-Sarwar SaaHib. This is what he had to say about the matter. I am only posting the relevant bits and the message is addressed to me.

میں ایک معمولی آدمی ہوں اور ادب و شعر میں کسی چیز میں بھی سند نہیں ہوں۔ جو کہتا یا لکھتا ہوں وہ اپنے محدود علم و مطالعہ کی بنا پر لکھتا ہوں اور غلط بھی ہو سکتا ہوں بلکہ ہوتا بھی ہوں۔

اگر گستاخی نہ سمجھی جائے تو عرض کروں کہ آپ نے جس مسئلہ کا ذکر کیا ہے وہ کچھ ایسا پیچیدہ نہیں ہے۔ مذکورہ گفتگو میں کلیدی فقرہ :شین قاف: ہے۔ رہ گیا :سے، کا: وغیرہ کا اس کے ساتھ استعمال تو وہ عبارت یا بات کے سیاق وسباق کے لحاظ سے ہوگا ۔ مثال کے طورپر درج ذیل سب صورتیں صحیح ہیں:۔

سرور کا شین قاف درست ہے
سرور کی تحریر شین قاف سے درست ہے
سرور کی تحریر کی شین قاف درست ہے*

سرور کی تحریر شین قاف کے لحاظ سے درست ہے

کہہ تو سکتے ہیں لیکن میں نے یہ بنت کبھی نہیں دیکھی۔:کے لحاظ: اس میں زائد الفاظ ہیں کیونکہ :شین قاف سے: کہنے سے مطلب پورا ادا ہو جاتا ہے۔ یوں کوئی کہنا چاہے تو ہرج بھی نہیں ہے۔ :سے: کا مطلب ہی :لحاظ سے: ہے۔ اس معمولی سی بات کی تشریح یا سند میری دانست میں غیر ضروری ہے۔ محاورہ اور روزمرہ میں الفاظ اور ان کی نشست میں ترمیم و تنسیخ کی گنجائش کم ہوتی ہے۔ مثلا :شین اور قاف درست ہے: کہیں تو غلط ہوگا کیونکہ :اور: یہاں محاورہ کا حصہ نہیں ہے بالکل ایسے ہی جیسے :نو دو گیارہ ہونا: تو صحیح ہے لیکن :نو دو گیارہ دو تیرہ ہونا : یا  :دس دو بارہ: ہونا غلط ہے۔

* I think in the third sentence the second "kii" is a typo and ought to be "kaa".


----------

