# se comporter comme un mouton de Panurge



## guillaume88

"Certaines personnes se comportent comme des moutons de Panurge"
ou
"il/elle  se comporte comme un mouton de Panurge"
Comment traduire cette expression avec une  expression idiomatique Anglaise, Américaine ou Australienne
Usually the usual translation is "to behave like a  sheep".
In this case this is more than that.
Thanks Guillaume


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## pointvirgule

_To behave like a lemming _?


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## guillaume88

PointVirgule. 

thanks for your answer 

If I post on the internet your suggestion "_To behave like a lemming __"  _ to a group of people like the chat room , I am the moderator and  I say to them  "you are behaving like lemmings"
do not you think I may have a strong reaction?

I am French

For me it is very difficult to assess the level of assertiveness  and when assertiveness becomes an insult or not .
Very difficult fo me to assess being of French descent .

If I say in  French  "n'agissé pas comme des moutons de Panurge" this will be just acceptable in French.

I am not trying to alienate the members who post.

I am  telling them "stop posting the same thing by repeating what the previous person as said without understanding what they are saying

I do not mind loosing a few members.

 I am just trying to get the right dose of FORTHRIGHTNESS with the membership..

I hope my explanation is clear enough?

Guillaume


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## pointvirgule

guillaume88 said:


> I am  telling them "stop posting the same thing by repeating what the previous person has said without understanding what they are saying


Dans ce cas, ne cherchez-vous pas plutôt à dire : _Stop acting like mindless parrots_ ou qqc du genre ?


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## guillaume88

POINTVIRGULE
c'est bien .
 votre réponse m'a fait rire car je peux imaginer la réaction 
""_Stop acting like mindless parrots_ ou qqc du genre ?"
as you say qqc du genre.


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## Language Hound

guillaume88 said:


> If I post on the internet your suggestion "_To behave like a lemming __"  _ to a group of people like the chat room , I am the moderator and  I say to them  "you are behaving like lemmings"
> do not you think I may have a strong reaction?
> 
> I am not trying to alienate the members who post.
> 
> I am  telling them "stop posting the same thing by repeating what the previous person as said without understanding what they are saying



Yes, I do think you would provoke a strong reaction if you tell them they are "behaving like lemmings."  If you don't want to come across as a scolding parent or authority figure, you might want to remind them that they should carefully read the other posts before posting their own and then perhaps add that copycats are not welcome (with a smiley or other emoticon) or something to that effect.

Also, given the context you just provided, I don't think "behaving like lemmings" really accurately describes the situation.


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## Language Hound

And I think you'd provoke an even stronger reaction if you told them to stop acting like mindless parrots!

Tempting though, isn't it?


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## LivingTree

I actually think "stop behaving like lemmings" is rather humorous. 

(Certainly more than "mindless parrots!" Although I must say that my own response, as a poster on a politics board, to people who spew forth the same mindless right-wing rhetoric I've heard a million times before, is usually "Brawk!")

To be slightly less insulting, and still try to keep it short and snappy, you could say "stop playing follow-the-leader".


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## Nicomon

As far as I know, _behaving like lemmings _really *is* the usual idiomatic translation.  I don't see why it would be more insulting in English than _se comporter comme des moutons de Panurge_ is in French? 

Now - natives will correct if I'm wrong - I think _mouton de Panurge_ is also often translated as_ blind follower. 

_So, while I'd vote for "lemmings" would this work? : _  Stop acting / don't act like blind followers. 
_


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## LivingTree

That's what "follow-the-leader" implies: you do whatever the leader does without thinking about it. "Stop playing follow-the-leader" also has the advantage of being somewhat light in tone.

"Stop acting like blind followers" isn't really something one would say. And it flattens the French, which is actually a simile, whereas the "acting like blind followers" is just, well, not.


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## Nicomon

Thanks LivingTree.

I tried... and I failed.    Live and learn. I thought that "follow the leader" meant_ suivez le guide,  _but not necessarily blindly_.  _

So I'll assume that the person who wrote that may not be anglophone : 





> If we notice members are *acting like blind followers*, it will stick out to the rest of us.


  That said, I agree that it flattens the French which does translate as : _Behaving like lemmings. 

_Moi je dirais en français : _ Arrêtez de faire les suiveux._


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## broglet

la bonne traduction dans ton contexte, guillaume, n'a rien à voir avec lemmings (qui se suicident pour des raisons inconnus) mais c'est 'Stop behaving like sheep'


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## franc 91

Pour la petite histoire, les moutons en question se sont bien jetés à l'eau en suivant leur chef.
http://www.expressio.fr/expressions/les-moutons-de-panurge.php


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## guillaume88

Nicomon said:


> As far as I know, _behaving like lemmings _really *is* the usual idiomatic translation.  I don't see why it would be more insulting in English than _se comporter comme des moutons de Panurge_ is in French?
> 
> Now - natives will correct if I'm wrong - I think _mouton de Panurge_ is also often translated as_ blind follower.
> 
> _So, while I'd vote for "lemmings" would this work? : _  Stop acting / don't act like blind followers.
> _



>>_  Stop acting / don't act like blind followers.  that sounds good_


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## guillaume88

Nicomon said:


> Thanks LivingTree.
> Moi je dirais en français : _ Arrêtez de faire les suiveux._



How do you say in English  : _ Arrêtez de faire les suiveux._ ???


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## guillaume88

franc 91 said:


> Pour la petite histoire, les moutons en question se sont bien jetés à l'eau en suivant leur chef.
> http://www.expressio.fr/expressions/les-moutons-de-panurge.php



correct they went over the cliff in the water.

but leur chef était bien the pack leader of the herd of sheep and not the sheppard.
le mot chef have to be taken as the pack leader of the "mob" of sheep.


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## broglet

guillaume88 said:


> How do you say in English  : _ Arrêtez de faire les suiveux._ ???


'stop behaving like sheep' ( 'stop acting like blind followers' a l'air du franglais)


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## Nicomon

broglet said:


> 'stop behaving like sheep' ( 'stop acting like blind followers' a l'air du franglais)


 Understood. Please stop rubbin it in.  
I also suggested "Don't act like", but I assume that this is also franglais. 

Incidentally, to me "Stop behaving like sheep" would be « Arrêtez (cessez) d'agir en moutons / de faire les moutons ». 
It is when « de Parnuge » is added that I'd use the "lemmings" version which may not work in context.


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## sound shift

Your remark is going to imply disapproval, however you word it. Some people take offence at the slightest criticism, but you can't please all the people all the time! You can try to make the wording as "soft" as possible. I suggest:

"Aren't you jumping on the bandwagon there, [name of member]?"
"Aren't you rather following the herd there, [name of member]?"


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## franc 91

I would much prefer it if you could show just how creative you can be, rather than simply following trends like so many sheep.
(suggestion)


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## broglet

Nicomon said:


> Understood. Please stop rubbin it in.
> I also suggested "Don't act like", but I assume that this is also franglais.
> 
> Incidentally, to me "Stop behaving like sheep" would be « Arrêtez (cessez) d'agir en moutons / de faire les moutons ».
> It is when « de Parnuge » is added that I'd use the "lemmings" version which may not work in context.


c'est '... like blind followers' qui a l'air franglais
j'ai choisi ' ... like sheep' parce- qu'il est une locution (comme 'les moutons de Panurge')
'like lemmings' est aussi une locution mais avec un focus sur la mort ou le désastre que le comportement entraînera - donc comme tu dis il ne marche pas dans le contexte actuel


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## LivingTree

I liked the "bandwagon" idea. "Get down off that bandwagon, now!" or something along that line ...

My little sister heard "lemon" when people talked about lemmings, so she said "lemons" when she talked about them. But if you told people to stop being lemons, only the Brits might get it. 

http://www.wordreference.com/definition/lemon
an unsatisfactory person or thing.


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## Nicomon

broglet said:


> c'est '... like blind followers' qui a l'air franglais


 Merci; maintenant, je le sais. Je crois par contre qu'il aurait été correct de dire (bien que ce ne soit pas une locution) : _Don't_ _be blind followers _as in _don't follow blindly_.


> j'ai choisi ' ... like sheep' parce qu'il est une locution (comme 'les moutons de Panurge')'like lemmings' est aussi une locution mais avec un focus sur la mort ou le désastre que le comportement entraînera - donc comme tu dis il ne marche pas dans le contexte actuel


 Ça, je le savais déjà. And again - but this is only my opinion - I think that if you want to say _sheep_, then _Panurge_ (remember that the sheep drowned) should be removed in French. 


LivingTree said:


> I liked the "bandwagon" idea. "Get down off that bandwagon, now!" or something along that line ...


 As found googling (different sources) : 


> The original meaning of _bandwagon_ was a large, ornately decorated, brightly colored wagon carrying the band in aparade. The term _jumping on the bandwagon_ originates from the 18th century-early 19th century Southern United States custom of jumping on the bandwagon during a political or religiousrally to audibly express support for whatever cause the rally promoted.
> 
> It is possible to: jump on the bandwagon , climb on the bandwagon hop on the bandwagon get on the bandwagon join the bandwagon
> *
> Meaning*
> Join a growing movement in support of someone or something, often in an opportunist way, when that movement is seen to have become successful.


This is getting further and further away from the sheep, no? In any event, in French "Jumping on the bandwagon" would normally be something like: 
_Prendre le train en marche / suivre le mouvement / entrer dans la parade _(this last one may be a quebecism). 

My point is : Why would you want to translate an idiom using the equivalent of... another one?

Je pense qu'il est temps que je change de fil. Je commence à me sentir comme un des « perroquets pas de tête / écervelés » de pointvirgule.


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## LivingTree

It depends on how insulting calling people _moutons de Panurge_ really is, and I think we anglos aren't sure. 

If it's just as insulting as calling people lemmings, then go for it -- Stop acting like lemmings!

It's just that it doesn't seem like the main thought in telling people to stop acting like _moutons de Panurge_ is the part about jumping off a cliff -- it's the part about blind following. Which is true of lemmings, too; the blind following is the main idea. Telling people to stop acting like sheep would be truly insulting; lemmings, maybe less so, just because, I dunno, lemmings are funny. Sheep are stupid.

"Get down off that bandwagon, now!" would absolutely convey the "blind following" bit, and would be a quirky/humorous way of telling people to stop what they're doing: all piling on the bandwagon and saying the same thing. It wouldn't insult anybody, and it would be quite clear. Getting the message across, to stop parroting what somebody else has said, is the main thing.

"Stop parroting what somebody else has said" would do it, too.


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## Language Hound

Nicomon said:


> I also suggested "Don't act like", but I assume that this is also franglais.
> 
> Incidentally, to me "Stop behaving like sheep" would be « Arrêtez (cessez) d'agir en moutons / de faire les moutons ».
> It is when « de Parnuge » is added that I'd use the "lemmings" version which may not work in context.



I have always said and heard, in AE, "_to *act* like sheep_."
I agree that "acting like lemmings" does not apply in Guillaume's particular context here.  If the purpose of this thread is simply to translate the expression "se comporter comme un mouton de Panurge," that is one thing.  If the purpose of the thread is to render that idea within the context Guillaume has cited, i.e., as a non-alienating admonition to members who appear not to have understood previous posts and post duplicate or very similar posts, then I would go with Sound Shift's suggestions (#19) or my original suggestion (#6).


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## Daph

I would definitely use " follow the herd"


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## guillaume88

I have looked at all the answers for a second time
There is confusion between
 - 1) I am, the moderator of the group
 - 2) the head of the pecking order 
[ two totally different things- many years ago I worked as a young man with cattle and horses -
it took me time to understand the pecking order of each herd]

1) I am not the leader head of the sheep.

The sheep(s) have "elected /chosen" an alpha leader male or female in their pecking order.

animals and humans do that.

every herds animals or humans as  a pecking order and this group  has a leader which is  head of the pecking order.  sometimes called "alpha" animal
This "alpha" animal will lead the heard where it goes, settle disputes between members of the herd, choose the best grazing land etc

what is the name of the animal,who is at the head of the pecking order.?
. the word escape me.. usually it is called alpha or ...??

2) In a herd [ I am not part  of the pecking order] ... by practical experience the head of the pecking order makes friend with me
this is a rough psychological approach the herd psychology.
If farmers have a head of the pecking order which is difficult , the farmer usually send it to an other paddock or send it to the abattoir.
it rarely happen..

3) In my Internet situation usually saying a few words does the trick or removing the offending member

*** At the moment I trying to communicating clearly and diplomatically to the other members, read the douments posted  and to follow their own instinct
rather than NOT reading anything and guessing from known gossip n the group.

4) Just asking every one to read the FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) 

****************


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## LivingTree

So, getting back to your original statement in French, and your explanation of the behaviour you want to put a stop to:

"Certaines personnes se comportent comme des moutons de Panurge"

-- which really is a statement rather than an instruction or demand -- 

"Some people are just parroting what someone else is saying"

would seem to do the trick, to me.


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## Nicomon

LivingTree said:


> "Certaines personnes se comportent comme des moutons de Panurge"
> 
> "Some people are just parroting what someone else is saying"


 Alors ici, on a d'un côté des_ moutons _- des suiveurs, donc - qui suivent aveuglément les autres (_sheep _or_ lemmings _/ _blind followers_) 
et de l'autre on a des _perroquets sans jugement_, qui ne font que répéter mécaniquement les propos des autres (_mindless parrots 
_comme pointvirgule a suggéré dès le début de ce long fil). 

C'est ce que je disais; on veut traduire une expression idiomatique par une autre. Pourquoi, pour l'amour du ciel?  

L'impression que j'ai, c'est que « _moutons de Panurge _» n'est peut-être pas vraiment ce que Guillaume veut dire, et que c'est pour ça 
qu'on « tourne en rond ».


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## velisarius

I agree with Nicomon, no sheep, no lemmings, just tell them "Stop playing "follow the leader". Please post if you have something new to contribute."


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## broglet

velisarius said:


> just tell them "Stop playing "follow the leader"


This is not what guillaume was trying to say. Pointvirgule's 'mindless parrots' seems perfect.


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## Language Hound

I think it's safe to say that no one searching WR for the meaning of "_se comporter comme des moutons de Panurge_" will be disappointed! 

As I see it, given all the information Guillaume has provided regarding his particular context and intended use (especially in post #3), the issue here is really not one of translation but rather one of adaptation.  This is really a cross-cultural issue.



guillaume88 said:


> If I say in  French  "n'agissé*​[sic]* pas comme des moutons de Panurge" this will be just acceptable in French.
> I am not trying to alienate the members who post.



So say that to your French members, Guillaume, but *adapt* your words when addressing your Anglo members (unless you wish to be thought of as a little dictator! ).  Generally speaking, Americans are quite happy to follow the rules and respect guidelines, but we like to be informed and reminded of them in a friendly, straight-forward, non-critical, non-sarcastic and non-authoritarian way.

The beauty of your particular situation is that you do not have to translate someone else's text here.  _YOU_ get to choose your own words as you will be the author of both the French and English.  So choose your French words and then *adapt* them for your Anglo members.  It's done all the time with books and movies when they are released in other countries:  Their titles are very often *adapted* for the target audience, and these titles often bear little resemblance to the original titles.

There are several good suggestions in the previous threads.  _Bonne chance !

_P.S. :  I think my own previous suggestion of "Copycats not welcome!" is even too strong.  I would probably say something more like "Please review the FAQs and read all posts in the thread before posting your own original thoughts.  And, remember, we don't like copycats!"


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## fdb

Given the fact that the French expression is an allusion to a very well known work of world literature, I would suggest as a suitably literate translation: “Do not act like the sheep in the story of Panurge and the merchant.”


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## broglet

Well-known fdb?  If you said that I bet most English speakers wouldn't have the faintest clue what you were talking about.


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## Nicomon

broglet said:


> This is not what guillaume was trying to say. Pointvirgule's 'mindless parrots' seems perfect.


 I agree, and in my opinion, Guillaume could also change his French version. As I wrote in post #29, I don't think « moutons de Panurge » really works in this specific context. At least that wouldn't be my personal choice. 

I'm all in favour of *adapting*, as Language Hound suggests, but I think the original should be relevant too. 

Copied from two different sources, this is what « mouton de Panurge » means (emphasis mine) : 





> Le mouton étant réputé pour être un animal faible et peu intelligent, on emploie aujourd’hui cette expression pour désigner *une personne qui se plie à un règlement sans réfléchir à son bien fondé.*
> Se comporter comme des moutons de Panurge, c'est faire la même chose que les autres, *suivre une mode, se conformer à une idée dominante, en éliminant tout sens critique.*


 As I understand it, the persons that Guillaume wants to address are noth sheep or lemmings, and I'm not sure they are copycats either. 

They are... parrots.  

*Note :* I wrote at the beginning of this thread « arrêtez de faire les suiveux » but that would be in line with « mouton /sheep ». 
So... I retract that suggestion, and everything related to _blind following. _For Guillaume's context, that is.


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## Professional-Translator

_Some people like to be driven...
Some people are blind followers...
Some people are following each other like sheep...
_The way that/in which some people behave in/are behaving is comparable to that​* of herded animals...*


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## fdb

broglet said:


> Well-known fdb?  If you said that I bet most English speakers wouldn't have the faintest clue what you were talking about.



Yes, but they might look it up on google.


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## LivingTree

Unfortunately, Professional-Translator's proposals just don't sound like anything an English-speaking moderator would say to some unruly forum posters.

The explanation given (post #27) is that some posters are not reading the material and posting their own views, they are just repeating what someone else has said about it. We have a context.

"Blind followers" just doesn't lend itself to a snappy formulation of the idea.
I think the people in question are definitely copycats, but again, it doesn't lend itself to any snappy formulation.
And using the word "mindless" to address forum participants is a wee bit over the top.

_Stop playing follow-the-leader. 
Some people (or "you") are just parroting what someone else has said._

Those are the simplest, most direct, most English ways of conveying the idea to the people it is intended for.

The choice would depend on whether it is going to be an _instruction_ or a _statement_ (which is what it was in the French in the OP).


btw, I think the _moutons de Panurge_ aspect of the original is getting at what we would say in English about somebody doing something just because somebody else did it: "And if Jack/Jill jumped off a bridge, would you do it too?" -- which is kind of relevant in the circumstances of the question. Referring to lemmings in English is just a little more/too obscure, I think.

.


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