# meidi-ya: di & ji



## Wishfull

皆さんこんにちは

明治屋さんはローマ字表記がmeidi-yaになってますよね。
meidiyaをかなに変換すると　めいぢや　となりますよね。

ji=じ
di=ぢ

通常は「じ」と書く言葉が多く、「ぢ」とは書かないですよね。
私は親から「し」に点でも「ち」に点でも同じ発音になるが、「ぢ」と書くのは「痔」の意味になり、下品であるから「ち」に点はできるだけ避けるようにと教えられました。

明治屋さんはmeidi-yaと書くと、普通の表現とちょっと違ってオシャレと思って、そうされているのでしょうか。かなで書くとオシャレではなく下品になってしまうと思うのですが。
（かなでは表記せずにアルファベットで表記するので問題ない、ということでしょうか。）

皆さんどのように思われますか。


----------



## Ototsan

Wishfull said:


> 皆さんこんにちは
> 
> 明治屋さんはローマ字表記がmeidi-yaになってますよね。
> meidiyaをかなに変換すると　めいぢや　となりますよね。
> 
> ji=じ
> di=ぢ
> 
> 通常は「じ」と書く言葉が多く、「ぢ」とは書かないですよね。
> 私は親から「し」に点でも「ち」に点でも同じ発音になるが、「ぢ」と書くのは「痔」の意味になり、下品であるから「ち」に点はできるだけ避けるようにと教えられました。
> 
> 明治屋さんはmeidi-yaと書くと、普通の表現とちょっと違ってオシャレと思って、そうされているのでしょうか。かなで書くとオシャレではなく下品になってしまうと思うのですが。
> （かなでは表記せずにアルファベットで表記するので問題ない、ということでしょうか。）
> 
> 皆さんどのように思われますか。



For your information:

Concerning ローマ字, I suggest you read the article 'ローマ字' of the Japanese language Wikipedia. There are several systems for the Romanization of Japanese, and the Hepburn's is only one.

Historically speaking, the Hepburn system is based on the English spelling tradition. You should not forget, for example, that for many Europeans, ja, ji, ju, je, jo would represent ya, yi, yu, ye, yo, respectively.

For the official infomration, visit the Bunkacho 文化庁 site at:

http://www.bunka.go.jp/kokugo/main.asp?fl=list&id=1000003935&clc=10000000


----------



## Aoyama

> Historically speaking, the Hepburn system is based on the English spelling tradition. You should not forget, for example, that for many Europeans, ja, *ji*, ju, je, jo would represent ya, yi, yu, ye, yo, respectively.


Nope, nope.
The Hepburn system is based _on two different phonetical systems_ (luckily, and that is what makes it almost perfect for Japanese and shows James Curtis outstanding intelligence).
It is based first on Latin (or Italian) and secondly (but for small details) on English.
Why Latin and English ? 
Because JCH was an american missionnary, so he knew ... English and Latin .
Latin for vowels (very important), English for a few consonants like "j", "ch", "sh", "w".
There was no "j" in Latin (nor in Italian) as Ototsan stresses (Japan is Giappone, j is called i lungo/long i).


----------



## Wishfull

Thank you.

So, 
from now on,
please compare meidi-ya めいぢや　with meizi-ya めいじや.

(私って、正確なローマ字を知らないままに過ごしていたようです。　ワープロのローマ字変換では、なんとなく変換できてしまうため、間違って覚えていたようです。訂正ありがとうございました。）


----------



## Flaminius

The historical kana representation of 明治 is めいぢ.  This is transliterated into <meidi> under Nihon-shiki convention, which still seems to be acquiesced by the Government.  Perhaps it is worth mentioning that this convention is more interested in one-to-one correspondences between transliterations and kanas than actual pronunciations.

By the time 明治屋 was founded (in 1885, which incidentally is the same year as Nihon-shiki was invented), the pronunciation of ぢ was no different from that of じ, so <di> was meant to be pronounced /dʒi/.


----------



## saharuna

Wishfull さん　こんばんは​ 
日本語でお話してもいいでしょうか？​ 
ワープロでは「治」は*ji* と入力してローマ字変換しないと出てきませんが、 
では、なぜ明治屋さんは*meiji-ya*でなく（下品かもしれない？！）*meidi-ya*にしたのかと考えました。このロゴが発明されたのは創業年である*1885**年*(明治18年)だとすると、今から125年前。当然いわゆる旧かな遣いだったのでしょう。​ 
かなで表記すれば、「明治」の振りがなは「メイジorめいじ」ではなく「メイヂorめいぢ」だったのではないでしょうか？？それでmeidi-ya　となったと確かでないけど思います。​ 
余談ですが、大正時代からの明治製菓がMeijiをロゴにしたのは戦後ですから新かな遣いになってからですね。​meidi-ya　はデザインもいいように思います。たしかにオシャレです。いろんなメイジで混乱しました。下品云々はほのぼのとしたエピソードに聞えました。

「あぢさゐ」　紫陽花もありますから・・・​ 
Flaminiusさんがおっしゃったことと重複しているようですみません。​


----------



## Aoyama

Flaminius is right.
The thing is that "Nihon shiki" is no match compared with "Hepburn/Hebon shiki" which incidently went also in use in 1885. Meidi for Meiji is a remnant of "Meiji's funny phonetics" which gave birth to many japlish words that no English native speaker can understand. 
Around 1885 were also used funny English conversation books with kana transcriptions that were a real laugh ...
To be compared with the article about Japanese in Diderot's Encyclopédie (+- 1760) where kanas were very precisely written ...


----------



## Wishfull

なるほど。
旧かな使いである、と聞くと合点がいきます。
旧かな使いである、と思うと、なぜか下品でなく、かえって上品な感じさえします。
明治をそのように書いていたとは知りませんでした。納得。納得。　がってん。

そうなると、残された疑問は、旧かなづかいから新かなに変更になったときに、ほとんどの「ぢ」は「じ」に変更になったのに、なぜあの「ぢ」だけが取り残されたのか、という点になってきます。
でもこれは、下品なテーマは、このフォーラムに馴染まないと思いますので、新しいスレッドを作るのはやめときます。

皆さんありがとうございました。


----------



## Yabanjin

Aoyama said:


> Nope, nope.
> The Hepburn system is based _on two different phonetical systems_ (luckily, and that is what makes it almost perfect for Japanese and shows James Curtis outstanding intelligence).
> It is based first on Latin (or Italian) and secondly (but for small details) on English.
> Why Latin and English ?
> Because JCH was an american missionnary, so he knew ... English and Latin .
> Latin for vowels (very important), English for a few consonants like "j", "ch", "sh", "w".
> There was no "j" in Latin (nor in Italian) as Ototsan stresses (Japan is Giappone, j is called i lungo/long i).


The "Hepburn" system of romanization in use today wasn't really invented by Hepburn himself. It was invented by the "Romaji kai" and it picked up the name Hepburn romanization because it was used in Hepburn's Japanese to English dictionary. Incidentally, Hepburn's original system of romanization was responsible for things like "yen" and "yedo". He modified it for the third edition of his dictionary. See
http://www.halcat.com/roomazi/doc/hep1.html
and
http://www.halcat.com/roomazi/doc/hep3.html


----------



## Yabanjin

Flaminius said:


> The historical kana representation of 明治 is めいぢ.  This is transliterated into <meidi> under Nihon-shiki convention, which still seems to be acquiesced by the Government.


The system of romanization taught in Japanese schools is the Kunrei system, not the Nippon-shiki. In Nippon-shiki, めいぢ is "meidi", but in Kunrei it is "meizi". In both Kunrei and Nippon-shiki, めいじ is "meizi".


----------



## Ototsan

Yabanjin said:


> The "Hepburn" system of romanization in use today wasn't really invented by Hepburn himself. It was invented by the "Romaji kai" and it picked up the name Hepburn romanization because it was used in Hepburn's Japanese to English dictionary. Incidentally, Hepburn's original system of romanization was responsible for things like "yen" and "yedo". He modified it for the third edition of his dictionary. See
> http://www.halcat.com/roomazi/doc/hep1.html
> and
> http://www.halcat.com/roomazi/doc/hep3.html



Thank you for the information. It's very, very interesting.

If I may add, the origin of the spelling "Yedo" may be older than the Hepburn Romanization. I happen to own a copy of the 20th century edition of Adam Johann von Krusenstern's Reise um die Welt in den Jahren 1803, 1804, 1805 und 1806 (Travel around the world) published in (East) Germany in 1986. This book contains a few maps dating from the early 1800s, and you find such place names as IEDDO and IESSO, namely 江戸 and 蝦夷 (Hokkaido). If I understand correctly, the spelling 'ye' is generally considerd a reflection of Japanese phonology of old days. So it seems that as far as Yedo is concerned, Hepburn-tachi perhaps simply Hepburnized the old spelling tradition.


----------



## Yabanjin

Ototsan said:


> Thank you for the information. It's very, very interesting.
> 
> If I may add, the origin of the spelling "Yedo" may be older than the Hepburn Romanization. I happen to own a copy of the 20th century edition of Adam Johann von Krusenstern's Reise um die Welt in den Jahren 1803, 1804, 1805 und 1806 (Travel around the world) published in (East) Germany in 1986. This book contains a few maps dating from the early 1800s, and you find such place names as IEDDO and IESSO, namely 江戸 and 蝦夷 (Hokkaido). If I understand correctly, the spelling 'ye' is generally considerd a reflection of Japanese phonology of old days. So it seems that as far as Yedo is concerned, Hepburn-tachi perhaps simply Hepburnized the old spelling tradition.



"Ye" for "e" seems to date back to the Nippo Jisho:

http://www.sljfaq.org/afaq/other-romanization.html#other-romanization-nippo-jisho


----------



## saharuna

追伸：
*meidi-ya *になったわけ,

漢字の「治」は「統治」、「治安」、「治水」などで「*ち*」と読みますね。でもなぜか元号「明治」は「めい*ぢ*」と濁って読むことにしました。すわりがいいからかもしれません。「めい*ち*」も「めい*ぢ*」も両方、政治を明らかにするという意味だということを辞書から初めて知りました。「めいじ」じゃなかったんですね。


----------



## Aoyama

First, for ぢand じ , I guess that there is a _particular_ reason here, to differentiate _hemorrhoid_ and other homonyms (time, temple etc).


> Hepburn's original system of romanization was responsible for things like "yen" and "yedo // "Ye" for "e" seems to date back to the Nippo Jisho


other examples : the name Inoue (Inoué) written Inoyé (US senator).
One food for thought about "meidi" : no one speaks about _Meidi era ..._


----------



## saharuna

Wishfull said:


> そうなると、残された疑問は、旧かなづかいから新かなに変更になったときに、ほとんどの「ぢ」は「じ」に変更になったのに、なぜあの「ぢ」だけが取り残されたのか、という点になってきます。
> でもこれは、下品なテーマは、このフォーラムに馴染まないと思いますので、新しいスレッドを作るのはやめときます。
> 
> 皆さんありがとうございました。


 
Wishfullさんの最後の疑問について、
新かなでは「痔」は「じ」になりましたから「ぢ」はもう用済み、懐古趣味では使われているものの、これも取り残されませんでした。薬屋さんの看板文字「*ぢ*」は町で見かけますが、（下品だと思ったことはないのはわたしが変なのでしょうか？）しかし正規ではありません。もはや字ではなく絵ではないかと思います。「*ラヂヲ*」なんても懐かしいです・・・・　
It is just in my opinion.


----------



## Aoyama

In short, everybody knows in Japan the meaning of 「*ぢ*」a kind of _euphemism_ for 「痔」which would (almost) _never_ be written 「じ」. I don't think that there is _any other use for _*ぢ *beside _this one ..._


----------



## Wishfull

saharuna said:


> もはや字ではなく絵ではないかと思います。


I agree.


----------



## Ototsan

Aoyama said:


> In short, everybody knows in Japan the meaning of 「*ぢ*」a kind of _euphemism_ for 「痔」which would (almost) _never_ be written 「じ」. I don't think that there is _any other use for _*ぢ *beside _this one ..._



Oh, please count me out. Personally I am free from such a prejudice against ヂ. There are some people in Japan who have a nostalgic respect for 旧仮名遣い. You know ブリヂストン. In Nagoya you notice that some buildings are still called ビルヂング. Þe olde spellynge ys coole.


----------



## saharuna

Aoyama said:


> In short, everybody knows in Japan the meaning of 「*ぢ*」a kind of _euphemism_ for 「痔」which would (almost) _never_ be written 「じ」. I don't think that there is _any other use for _*ぢ *beside _this one ..._


 
Hello Aoyamaさん

I would say that I can feel even direct expression about 「*ぢ*」,as an advertisement.　

それから、これは、さっき娘から聞いたことですが・・・
「ぢ」の生き残りの使い方はまだありました。縮めるは「ち*ぢ*める」「ちじめる」。
ちなみに、地面は「*じ*めん」「*ぢ*めん」。地震も「*じ*しん」「*ぢ*しん」。地は「*ち*」なのに


----------



## Aoyama

> 「ぢ」の生き残りの使い方はまだありました


right. But I was only talking about ぢwhich "carries" this special meaning ...


----------



## Flaminius

Yabanjin said:


> Flaminius said:
> 
> 
> 
> The historical kana representation of 明治 is めいぢ. This is transliterated into <meidi> under Nihon-shiki convention, which still seems to be acquiesced by the Government.
> 
> 
> 
> The system of romanization taught in Japanese schools is the Kunrei system, not the Nippon-shiki. In Nippon-shiki, めいぢ is "meidi", but in Kunrei it is "meizi". In both Kunrei and Nippon-shiki, めいじ is "meizi".
Click to expand...

When I said the Nihon-shiki spelling <di> for ぢ is acquiesced, I was basing my opinion on this from the Preamble of what *Ototsan* has found for us:


> 2. 国際的関係その他従来の慣例をにわかに改めがたい事情にある場合に限り、第2表に掲げたつづり方によつてもさしつかえない。


The spelling <di> belongs to Table 2.


----------

