# الصراط or srat



## mkh

Hi,
The Arabic word *صراط* (serat) means *street*.
The M Per. word *srat* means street and ladder. You can find meaning  of srat in webapps.uni-koeln.de/tamil (select All dictionary) that says "*srat* [slt' | cf. Ar. sira1t2] street.".
*سردی* (sardi) in some positions of Iran is said to ladder, for example in Taleqan; an old city near Tehran.
From avesta.org: "cinvat-peretûm [*cinvat-peretu*]: Chinwad bridge, the *bridge from Earth to Heaven*, where the virtuous pass over safely, but the wicked fall into hell".
Another name of cinvat-peretu in Iran is *پل صراط* (pol serat) that may be *پل سردی*  that means "bridge in ladder shape".
I like to know whether *pol serat* comes from the M Per. srat in background of Avesta, or comes from Quran, as says *صراط المستقیم*.
And I like to know that the phrase of *جسر الصراط* (srat bridge) with the meaning of *Chinwad bridge* is common in Muslim or Arab countries or not.

Thanks,
Mahdi.


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## elephas

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم​ 
I believe *صراط *means more like "Path, roadway" than a "street"... For streets and avenues there are words like طريق, شارع. Especially in Quranic Arabic, starting from the very first surah:


> آهدنا ا*لصّرط* المستقيم
> *صراط* آلّذين انعمت عليهم


- it's not like "drive us down the street", it's more like "lead us along the way, the way of those..." I see the "alif" between "ra" and "Ta" often omitted, in holy Qur'an they usually write "zalika" at this place which is a form of "alif"; I believe when people omit "alif", they imply "zalika" - usually zalikas and even tashdids are, as you well know, omitted in Arabic.


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## Alijsh

mkh said:


> I like to know whether *pol serat* comes from the M Per. srat in background of Avesta, or comes from Quran, as says *صراط المستقیم*.


It can be possible Mahdi. For instance, Koran has a word with an Avestan background: *din* (religion). It has been *daeena* in Avestan and *deen* in Middle Persian (ee denotes long e which has become *i* in Iranian Persian). In Addition, there are more Persian words in Koran e.g. *firdaus* (paradise). So, I won't surprise if *serât* can be another one.


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## Flaminius

I realise that the word صراط contains two emphatic consonants.  If they are not used in the Persian phonological palette, does that mean that the word was originally Arabic?


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## Alijsh

Flaminius said:


> I realise that the word صراط contains two emphatic consonants.  If they are not used in the Persian phonological palette, does that mean that the word was originally Arabic?


I don't understand. Do you mean ص and ط? If so, we have many Persian words that have been Arabized this way e.g. shatranj (شطرنج). So seeing ط doesn't mean that it's of Arabic origin.


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## mkh

Hi,


Flaminius said:


> I realise that the word صراط contains two emphatic consonants.  If they are not used in the Persian phonological palette, does that mean that the word was originally Arabic?


What is the cognate of the Arabic word صراط in Hebrew?

Thanks,
Mahdi.


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## Flaminius

Alijsh said:


> I don't understand. Do you mean ص and ط? If so, we have many Persian words that have been Arabized this way e.g. shatranj (شطرنج). So seeing ط doesn't mean that it's of Arabic origin.


Oh, I didn't know that native Persian words can consist of ص and ط (and perhaps several other letters [if not phonemes]).  Thanks for correcting me.


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## elephas

I was hoping native speakers of Arabic would join this discussion... It looks to me that the word صراط is purely Qur'anic. There were tons of discussions what words from other languages it may be related to; there was a theory of relation to the Latin word "Strata", origins of which has been also heavily debated, how it evolved between Greek and Latin in the context of Roman presence in the Middle East...


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## Alijsh

Flaminius said:


> Oh, I didn't know that native Persian words can consist of ص and ط (and perhaps several other letters [if not phonemes]).  Thanks for correcting me.


You're welcome. They are mainly Arabized form of native Persian words. The interesting point is that many of these Arabized words have returned to Persian and have taken the place of the original pronunciation. We have many such words. *Shatranj* is Arabized form of Middle Persian *shatrang* (the 300 years after the Arab invasion to Iran belongs to Middle Persian and many of these words have been Arabized from the Middle Persian).​


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## mkh

Hi,


elephas said:


> ... It looks to me that the word صراط is purely Qur'anic...


The important question is: Is there any *bridge* *in Koran* for passing or falling souls of dead men or women? If Koran claims such a bridge, please address it.
Does such a bridge exist in other nations or religious in earth?

May *صراط* be loan word or cognate to PIE **swer-* , cognate to sword in Eng.
Because the definition of As-sirat is: "It is as thin as a hair and as sharp as a *sword*.".

Another possibility for *صراط* is that, the صراط be Arabized form of Per *چینود* as follows.
*Cinwad *(select all dictionary in the site) in M. Per. is written as *cynw(p)t'* . As you see in the middle Persian font of Iran letters of *n* & *r* have similar letter like "*l*". Also Per. words having چ (ch) goes in Arabic by converting چ to ص (s); for example چین (China) in Arabic is صين (Sin).
In this ways:
چ -> ch -> ص
ن -> n -> *l* -> r -> ر .
So chinwad => cynw(p)t' => cirat => صراط .

Thanks,
Mahdi.


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## knight_2004

mkh said:


> Hi,
> 
> May *صراط* be loan word or cognate to PIE **swer-* , cognate to sword in Eng.
> Because the definition of As-sirat is: "It is as thin as a hair and as sharp as a *sword*.".




SeRÁTt (صراط) was derived from Sword?
Naaah. I don't think so, try another one.




Oh, well.... to another story...


mkh said:


> Another possibility for *صراط* is that, the صراط be Arabized form of Per *چینود* as follows.
> In this ways:
> چ -> ch -> ص
> ن -> n -> *l* -> r -> ر .
> So chinwad => cynw(p)t' => cirat => صراط .



So, according to your decryption of words, we have:

G -> Ch -> ص (S)
N -> L
N -> R
R -> N
L -> ر
Wa -> can be omitted or "A" (well... depends on your mode or wish)
D or T  -> ط
C -> ص (cirat --> صراط) (Oh, might as well)

Well, let's google some words.
Before we google, let's check the word "google."

Google -> (صوصن) (Interesting)

Gun -> Sur (صر)
DAN -> (طار)
Gungan -> صرصار
and of course "Gungoun" -> (صرصور)

GAG -> (صوص) (Levantine, I guess جاج)

Gringo -> maybe أبو بريص

Rug -> (نص) (It makes alot of sense; because usually, you put a RUG in the middel of a room)

Nawal ->  (روان) (wow, now we just figured out where the name Rawan came from)
Gamal -> (صابر) (the list goes on)

Chrome -> (صنم) (Chrome plated, I guess!?)

WaSL   ->  أجر 
(يعني لما تكون في تاكسي وتروح تدفع الأجره ويكون صاحبك دفع عنك وعنه، ويقول لك الشفير واصل )

يمكن أن نطلق على هكذا كتاب
فن التخبيص في التخريج
(لاحظ الصاد والجيم)




mkh said:


> Another possibility ....


 

If you have more possibilities, please let us know. By the way, where do you get your information from?


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## mkh

Hi,


knight_2004 said:


> G -> Ch -> ص (S)


1- First of all, the idea of changing words between languages, is well known.

2- When I say the letter of *چ* (Ch) in Persian goes to Arabic with some mistakes, why do you disagree with me?
Any one can see that one native Arab, converts *چ* (Ch) to G because didn't see 3 dots of *چ* (Ch) and assumes that it is *ج* (G).
In addition, I didn't say  N -> L -> R . I say, as you see in the middle Persian font of Iran letters of *n* & *r* have similar letter like "*l*", means something like shape of "*l*" not sound of L.
Any way, when such mistakes occur in 2008, what about 1500 years ago? 

3- If صراط means bridge in Arabic, I will be appreciated taking some examples in poems or texts before holy Koran?

4- I saw here, when early Muslim authorities writing Koran they didn't know spell of صراط to be صراط or سراط or زراط etc.

Thanks,
Mahdi.


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## knight_2004

mkh said:


> 1- First of all, the idea of changing words between languages, is well known.



Well-known? Let's get this straight, if all the letters are changed, then it is then a completely different word.

If one letter or a couple of letters change in a word, especially when they sound the same, or when one letter is written and pronounced in different ways; maybe! But not when all the letters are totally different, and then you say they are the same word. Non-Sense!

For example, the letter "Z" is pronounced as a "th" (like think) in Spanish - Spain, and it is pronounced "s" in Spanish - South America. Another example, "S" it is pronounced in different ways in these words, "This," "Us," "Is"

Where in the word "This," the "S" sounds like a regular "s"
In "Us," the "S" sounds like an Arabic Saad (Stressed S)
In "Is," the "S" sounds like a "Z" in English.

But, a "ج" that sounds as "G" (game) is changed into "ص"  which is a stressed "S", is very unlikely. Like I said, if it were only ONE letter, one would say "Maybe." But, the rest of the letters in the word "SeRÁTt" are all different.

Also, you assume that one can substitute and move freely between these combinations:
N -> L
N -> R
R -> N
L ->  ر (R)
Just to fit your assumption? So, you create new rules here!? For what?

You say,


mkh said:


> In addition, I didn't say  N -> L -> R .



Well, yes you did! In your post number #10, you said,



mkh said:


> ن -> n -> *l* -> r -> ر .
> So chinwad => cynw(p)t' => cirat => صراط .



And, in your post #1 you say,



mkh said:


> From avesta.org: "cinvat-peretûm [*cinvat-peretu*]...
> 
> Another name of cinvat-peretu in Iran is *پل صراط* (pol serat) that may be *پل سردی*  that means "bridge in ladder shape".
> I like to know whether *pol serat* comes from the M Per. srat in background



You try to twist the word "cinvat-peretûm" into "SeRÁT", which is non-sense.
 Or the word by itself "cinvat" which maybe pronounced (as you claim) "Chinwad" is also non-sense. Because "SeRÁTt" is totally different. Different in pronunciation,  the letters are totally different, and also has a different meaning.

Do you see where you try to substitute an "R" in place of an "N."
You simply assume that the "N" can be "converted" into "L" then into "R."
Also, you assumed that the letter "G" since you pronounce it "Ch" in Persian, then you can FREELY remove the "h" so it is a "c" by itself. And, of course, since "C" could be pronounced as a "s" in English; and, then the "S" could be pronounced easily as a stressed "S" in Arabic; and, Viola! you won the jackpot. Dead Wrong!

Why all that mess!?
What kind of proof is that!

Your orphan example of "China" to Arabic "Sseen" does not make sense aslo.
Just because it is written "China" in Englisn, and pronouced "Ch"; then "Ch" is automatically a stressed "S" in Arabic? Even if the "Ch" itself in the word 'Chinwad' came from Persian?

Let me make it easier for you. Why do you go so far? Why don't you look closer? Yes, closer than the far East or West.

When you have an Arabic word, try an Arabic dictionary, (makes sense?) An Arabic dictionary, like "Lisan Al-'Arab" Look up the word "SeRÁTt" (سراط) and you will see that it is an Arabic word. You will see also that it does not mean "Straight Path", or "a bridge", or "Sword", or "Bridge from Earth to Heaven" or any of all the non-sense words you brought in your posts above.

It simply means a "Clear Path" or a "Distinct Course," where a Path or a Course is not narrow; it can be as wide as possible that can swallow (سرط) [SaRaTta] everybody. Clear does not mean empty, it means clear as distinct, well-known. And also, as you can see, it does not necessarily mean a straight path.

When combined with the word "MuSTaQeeM" (straight), it becomes "Al-SeRÁTta AL-MuSTaQeeM" (الصراط المستقيم) which means the "Straight Path." 

Now try to pronounce the word "SaRaTTa" and see if you can pronounce the "S" as a regular "S" in English!
It would be easier to pronounce it more like the "S" in the English word "us."  Hense, Quraish used to pronounce the "S" in the word "SeRÁTt" or any other word where the letter "S" (س) and the letter "Tt" (ط) are in the same word, as the "S" in "us."
Try,
(سلطة), (سوط), (سلّط), (إصطحب), (أسباط) and see for yourself.
And also try (سمر), (سمط) and see the difference between the two when you pronounce the "S".

It is clear when Allah says in the Quran:
((وَ كَذَلِكَ أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْكَ قُرْآنًا عَرَبِيًّا لِّتُنذِرَ أُمَّ الْقُرَى وَ مَنْ حَوْلَهَا))
and
((نزل به الروح الامين على قلبك لتكون من الموقنين بلسان عربي مبين))


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## mkh

Hi,
*Note:* Please before all things, add *Farsi* font to your system to see Persian letters and words correctly, because there are *4* letters in Persian that don't exit in Arabic. And in such a thread we required to the Farsi font.


knight_2004 said:


> But, a "ج" that sounds as "G" (game) is changed into "ص" which is a stressed "S", is very unlikely. Like I said, if it were only ONE letter, one would say "Maybe." But, the rest of the letters in the word "SeRÁTt" are all different.


If you add Farsi font to your system, you can view the letter of چ (Ch) in Persian that differs from letter of ج (G). In this position, review all the messages of this thread, please.


knight_2004 said:


> Also, you assume that one can substitute and move freely between these combinations:
> N -> L
> N -> R
> R -> N
> L ->  ر (R)
> ...
> Do you see where you try to substitute an "R" in place of an "N."
> You simply assume that the "N" can be "converted" into "L" then into "R."
> Also, you assumed that the letter "G" since you pronounce it "Ch" in Persian, then you can FREELY remove the "h" so it is a "c" by itself. And, of course, since "C" could be pronounced as a "s" in English; and, then the "S" could be pronounced easily as a stressed "S" in Arabic; and, Viola! you won the jackpot. Dead Wrong!
> ...
> Your orphan example of "China" to Arabic "Sseen" does not make sense aslo.
> Just because it is written "China" in Englisn, and pronouced "Ch"; then "Ch" is automatically a stressed "S" in Arabic?


Why don't you browse the Web page that I address it in: http://www.ancientscripts.com/pahlavi.html helping me, to describe my idea that letters of *n* & *r* have similar shape like shape of "*l*" not sound of L in Pahlavi script. I talk about font of Pahlavi in Iran of 2500 years ago, not current font of English, Persian or Arabic.


knight_2004 said:


> You try to twist the word "cinvat-peretûm" into "SeRÁT", which is non-sense.
> Or the word by itself "cinvat" which maybe pronounced (as you claim) "Chinwad" is also non-sense. Because "SeRÁTt" is totally different. Different in pronunciation, the letters are totally different, and also has a different meaning.
> ...
> Even if the "Ch" itself in the word 'Chinwad' came from Persian?


Yes, Chinwad is only a pronunciation in Avesta. I talk about transferring words to other places by *text* only, not from hearing that word from its native speakers. If a written text reads by a foreigner without knowing phonetic of the words in original place, the text could be pronounced fully different than in its home. In this case chinwad (that is a pronunciation in Iran from old ages till now) written in Pahlavi font (that is a derivation from Aramaic font in 2500 years ago) could be pronounced by Arabs as Sirat.


knight_2004 said:


> Let me make it easier for you. Why do you go so far? Why don't you look closer? Yes, closer than the far East or West.


Because when early Muslim authorities writing Koran they didn't know spell of صراط to be صراط or سراط or زراط or gender of the word.


knight_2004 said:


> When you have an Arabic word, try an Arabic dictionary, (makes sense?) An Arabic dictionary, like "Lisan Al-'Arab" Look up the word "SeRÁTt" (سراط) and you will see that it is an Arabic word.
> ...
> It simply means a "Clear Path" or a "Distinct Course," where a Path or a Course is not narrow; it can be as wide as possible that can swallow (سرط) [SaRaTta] everybody. Clear does not mean empty, it means clear as distinct, well-known. And also, as you can see, it does not necessarily mean a straight path.


Ok, but nowadays the word of صراط is in Koran, not سراط nor other word in replace of صراط.


knight_2004 said:


> You will see also that it does not mean "Straight Path", or "a bridge", or "Sword", or "Bridge from Earth to Heaven" or any of all the non-sense words you brought in your posts above.


So say, what is your idea about this:
قال أبو سعيد الخدري في صحيح مسلم: الصراط جسر أدق من الشعر، وأحد من السـيف، يضربه الله - جل  وعلا - على ظهر جهنم ليمر عليه المؤمنون إلى جنات النعيم، والمشركون إلى جهنم وبئس  المصير، فهو قنطرة بين الجنة والنار​ جسر means bridge, and سيف means sword.
And its equivalent in Avesta: "cinvat-peretûm [*cinvat-peretu*]: Chinwad bridge, the *bridge from Earth to Heaven*, where the virtuous pass over safely, but the wicked fall into hell".


knight_2004 said:


> It is clear when Allah says in the Quran:
> ((وَ كَذَلِكَ أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْكَ قُرْآنًا عَرَبِيًّا لِّتُنذِرَ أُمَّ الْقُرَى وَ مَنْ حَوْلَهَا))​  and
> ((نزل به الروح الامين على قلبك لتكون من الموقنين بلسان عربي مبين))​


So what is your idea about the book of The Foreign Vocabulary of The Qur'an.

Thanks,
Mahdi.


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## Mahaodeh

mkh said:


> Hi,
> *Note:* Please before all things, add *Farsi* font to your system to see Persian letters and words correctly, because there are *4* letters in Persian that don't exit in Arabic. And in such a thread we required to the Farsi font.


 
I agree with that.  However, the sound ch (as in child) is usually converted in Arabic to sh (sheen) or j (jeem) not S (Saad).



mkh said:


> ... to describe my idea that letters of *n* & *r* have similar shape like shape of "*l*" not sound of L in Pahlavi script...
> .
> .
> .
> I talk about transferring words to other places by *text* only, not from hearing that word from its native speakers. If a written text reads by a foreigner without knowing phonetic of the words in original place, the text could be pronounced fully different than in its home. In this case chinwad (that is a pronunciation in Iran from old ages till now) written in Pahlavi font (that is a derivation from Aramaic font in 2500 years ago) could be pronounced by Arabs as Sirat.


 
But words are loaned between languages not through text but through hearing.  Even if it was an Arab that reads it, he should already know how to pronounce words because he would not be able to read Farisi if he doesn't know the language.  How the letters look like, I believe, is irrelevant unless we are talking a about an extinct language which is not the case with Farisi. 



mkh said:


> Because when early Muslim authorities writing Koran they didn't know spell of صراط to be صراط or سراط or زراط or gender of the word.


 
I don't know how this is relevant, this is not the only word where there is disagreement on how to spell it although there is agreement on how to pronounce it.  You see, language is originally spoken and it is written much later.  Spelling disagreement is another issue.  Besides, don't you see that there is indeed similarities between the mentioned letters in terms of pronounciation, and that none of them is sheen or jeem.



mkh said:


> So say, what is your idea about this:
> قال أبو سعيد الخدري في صحيح مسلم: الصراط جسر أدق من الشعر، وأحد من السـيف، يضربه الله - جل وعلا - على ظهر جهنم ليمر عليه المؤمنون إلى جنات النعيم، والمشركون إلى جهنم وبئس المصير، فهو قنطرة بين الجنة والنار​


 
Abu Saeed Al Khidri was talking about the Sirat mentioned in the Quran, not the linguistic meaning of the word.  I find this also irrelevant




mkh said:


> So what is your idea about the book of The Foreign Vocabulary of The Qur'an.


 
So, everyone has a right to write a book.

---------------------------

I'm not saing Sirat is Arabic nor saying it is not.  However, I hightly doubt your explanation.  It doesn't seem to make sense.


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## mkh

Hi,


Mahaodeh said:


> However, the sound ch (as in child) is usually converted in Arabic to sh (sheen) or j (jeem) not S (Saad).


But there are are some words containing ch that convert in Arabic to s, such as China and صين.

Further description about relation of chinwat and صراط is outside scope of this forum.

And finally, results:
I found from  answers that الصراط meaning bridge isn't a common believe between peoples outside Iran. Because in Iran, every body is familiar with concept of such a bridge (ranging from kid to eld), but in Arab countries only via anecdotes (احادیث) and Koran doesn't claim this.

Thanks for contributions,
Mahdi.


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## Mahaodeh

But how do you know that the word China came through Persian? Actually, the word is with an s sound (or similar) not only in Arabic, but also in Latin, Greek and Sanskrit. According to http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=China, the name is ultimately from Sanskrit. Why do expect it to come to Arabic directly from Chinese while it seems much more logical that it came through Sanskrit. Even if it came directly to Arabic, it may have been with such a sound in some ancient Chinese dialect or some western region dialect, which reached Sanskrit and Greek with the same sound.


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## Frank06

*Hi,*

*I think we can stop here.*
*We had a discussion about الصراط or srat.*
*We had us a good old fashioned discussion about "letters", while every linguist from the last 250 years or so, be it amateur or professional, would talk about sounds. *
*And now we are talking about China.*

*Please feel free to open as new threads as you want, but this one is closed.*

*Khoda hafez,*

*Frank*
*Moderator EHL*


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