# pronunciation:  H - haitch or aitch?



## Hockey13

When I used to work for UBS in Boston, I had to make occasional calls to our tech center which was based in New Zealand (I imagine all people dealing with us on that side of the world are nocturnal  ). In order to be helped, I often had to give my user name which included the first letter of my last name which is "H." When the New Zealander would read back the letter to me, he would pronounce it as:

_Haytch_

At the time, I thought this was the oddest thing I'd ever heard as here it is pronounced:

_Aytch_

I wonder if this pronunciation is widespread in New Zealand and perhaps also into Australia. Is it pronounced like this anywhere else? Thanks, guys.


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## muselinazi

In Australia both pronunciations are used. However, _aytch_ seems to be the more prestigious. 
Many of my primary school teachers actively discouraged pronouncing 'H' _haytch _on the grounds that it sounded 'common'.
I can't comment on the situation in New Zealand.

Kate


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## .   1

My Irish Catholic heritage has haitch being pronounced but most words begining with an aitch 'ave the haitch 'acked off when speaking.  I was led to believe that English Protestants pronounced their '*h*aitches'.  It was a shibboleth of my childhood and was accurate in my small country town.
There was a recent case involving a gang of thieves running a large company called HIH and it was openly joked at the time that reporters were revealing their religious heritage with either "haitch eye haitch" or "aitch eye aitch" pronunciations.

.,,


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## Song Sprite

When children recite the alphabet here in British Columbia, Canada, it is universally "aitch", with no religious implications.


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## RocketGirl

I used to live in Perth in Western Australia.  I lived on "High Street".  I remember running into a lot of problems with my Canadian accent when trying to call a cab.

Me: "Hi, can I get a cab to 123 High Street"
Them: "Sorry, what street?"
Me: "High street"
Them:"Can you spell that please?"
Me: "Aitch, eye, gee, aitch"
Them: "A I G A ?"
Me: "No, aitch as in 'Happy'"
Them: "Oh, *H*aitch"

I had this conversation with about 4 different people before I clued in that I had to change.  Once I made the switch to "haitch", as funny as it was to hear myself say it, I never encountered the problem again.

*Note: *This only happened to me in Western Australia.  I also lived in Victoria and New South Wales (other states), and they didn't seem to have the same issues with my 'aitch' as the Western Australians did...


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## Song Sprite

Seriously? That's hilarious... I'll keep that in mind if I ever travel to Australia.


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## panjandrum

As .,, suggests, H pronunciation is a shibboleth in Ireland.


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## L'insoumis

When I was a child I used to say Haitch, but was told to say Aitch. Now it annoys me when people say Haitch.


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## .   1

L'insoumis said:


> Now it annoys me when people say Haitch.


Why?

.,,


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## L'insoumis

. said:


> Why?
> 
> .,,




because I'm a bigot? 

I don't know why, just sounds funny, like the way victorians say 'castle'.


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## Ecossaise

"H"aitch is used to avoid confusion with "eight", which is very easy on a telephone.


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## Brioche

. said:


> My Irish Catholic heritage has haitch being pronounced but most words begining with an aitch 'ave the haitch 'acked off when speaking. I was led to believe that English Protestants pronounced their '*h*aitches'. It was a shibboleth of my childhood and was accurate in my small country town.
> There was a recent case involving a gang of thieves running a large company called HIH and it was openly joked at the time that reporters were revealing their religious heritage with either "haitch eye haitch" or "aitch eye aitch" pronunciations.
> 
> .,,


 
It was certainly not the case in South Australia. I had a Catholic education of go to whoa, and we were taught to say 'aitch' for the letter H. And kids who dropped Hs, or dropped Gs were corrected.

[Dropping H is when you say *'ot* instead of *hot*, and dropping G is saying *comin'* instead of *coming*].


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## cuchuflete

I ad a math teacher in the ninth grade 
(pupils~age 12)  who pronounced the letter "haitch"
to the great amusement of the students.
He was from the U.S., as were all the students.
'is name was Fitzgerald, if that's of any 'elp.


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## Victoria32

Hockey13 said:


> When I used to work for UBS in Boston, I had to make occasional calls to our tech center which was based in New Zealand (I imagine all people dealing with us on that side of the world are nocturnal  ). In order to be helped, I often had to give my user name which included the first letter of my last name which is "H." When the New Zealander would read back the letter to me, he would pronounce it as:
> 
> _Haytch_
> 
> At the time, I thought this was the oddest thing I'd ever heard as here it is pronounced:
> 
> _Aytch_
> 
> I wonder if this pronunciation is widespread in New Zealand and perhaps also into Australia. Is it pronounced like this anywhere else? Thanks, guys.


Hello Hockey - as a New Zealander I have to say *I* say "*haytch*', but almost no one else here does! 

(Sometimes I do it to annoy, because I am that kind of person, also I do it for clarity).

Vicky


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## .   1

Kiowa said:


> However in the case of the insurance co. it was ' Haitch Eye Aitch', so it's sometimes with, and sometimes without.


Source please?

.,,


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## Anatoli

Hi all,

This is my first post in the English section.

I wonder what you think and if there is a definite  description what the letter H should be called.

In Australia, many people (especially with the English language background) call it "haitch", which is strange, foreigners are always taught "aitch" and that's my preferred pronunciation.

I found a wiki page saying it is a standard in Irish in Australian English. Shouldn't both follow one convention?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H#Name_of_the_letter

I got really confused when I saw this comment on the top of the page:



> The letter H is the eighth letter in the Latin alphabet. Its name in English is *haitch [heɪtʃ]*, though many people *incorrectly* say *aitch*.



On the same page there is a contradiction, obviously written by another person:



> The English name of the letter is generally pronounced */eɪtʃ/* and spelled *aitch[1]* (or occasionally *eitch*). Pronunciation */heɪtʃ/* (and hence spelling *haitch*) is usually considered to be h-adding and hence *nonstandard*.


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## Word Smith

Aitch. Definitely.  Haitch is not right.


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## emma42

It's "aitch", from Old French "ache" from which Late Latin "ahha" is inferred (Chambers English Dictionary).

A lot of native speakers say "haitch", which really grates on my ears.  It is unusual to hear a formally educated person say "haitch", although I heard a TV announcer use it the other day.


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## Anatoli

Thanks, guys


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## emma42

You're welcome, Anatoli.


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## Kiwikatipo

I am a (Kiwi) New Zealand primary (elementary) teacher who comes from the North Island. I've taught in slum and private schools all over Auckland, NZ's biggest city. I never heard 'haitch' in my life until I came to Melbourne, Australia, four years ago.

On researching where the hell it came from, I found out it was an Irish Catholic thing, spead by the Irish immigrants to Oz, sending their kids to Catholic schools, and the kids being taught by haitch speaking monks and nuns, instead of the English/Protestant Aussie aitch teachers in the Government schools.

Educated Upper Class Australians eg John Howard the prime minister, an Anglican/Episcopalian, say aitch

So I can only assume that the New Zealander the first poster spoke to was a) an Australian, because New Zealanders and Australians travel back and forth all the time between their countries. Or B) A New Zealander who thought speaking this way made messaging easier.

'Haitch' sounds amazingly lower socio economic to me, and coming from a Scottish Protestant background, (like many New Zealanders)  it will be a cold day in hell before I say it. (Just joking)


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## clairenz

scottish family members (older ones) who came to  NZ back in the day all say "haitch" although this might be  a reflection of their irish catholic heritage from centuries ago...I say "aitch" myself


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## panjandrum

What a snobby lot.
There are indeed different ways of pronouncing H.  And of course this is an indicator of background and education.  It's not a question of how much education you have had, but where you have had it.  The same factors influence the way you speak generally: for example your pronunciation of Z.  
Haitch wrong?  
Surely not.


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## Anatoli

I wonder why the topic was renamed to Kiwi Haitch. It's not coming from New Zealand. It's more common among the Irish and some Australians.


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## sound shift

Perhaps the injunction "Don't drop your aitches" is at the root of "haitch". Or should that be "Don't drop your haitches"?


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## emma42

Well, I've learned a few things on this thread.

I had always assumed that people pronounced it "haitch" because they were trying to "speak properly" and not drop their "aitches", if that makes any sense.  A bit like some of Dickens' characters who add an aspirated "h" to the beginning of words which begin with vowels, but drop the "h" when it "shouldn't" be dropped.  Like:

"Hi am halways your most 'umble servant, sir" [I am always your most humble servant, sir].

I hope this makes sense.


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## la reine victoria

My Scottish mother, and my grandmother, used to say "haitch".  I believe it to be dialect.

I have always said "aitch".

I see no problem with either.

LRV


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## Anatoli

Do we now have two names for letter H, as with Z?

Read this:
http://www.abc.net.au/wordmap/rel_stories/aitch.htm


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## .   1

Apaprently.

.,,


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## Hockey13

Anatoli said:


> I wonder why the topic was renamed to Kiwi Haitch. It's not coming from New Zealand. It's more common among the Irish and some Australians.


 
The topic was not renamed, it was simply posted onto the end of the a topic I had already opened just before yours. This might have been avoided with a search for "aitch" or "haitch."


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## Anatoli

Hockey13 said:


> The topic was not renamed, it was simply posted onto the end of the a topic I had already opened just before yours. This might have been avoided with a search for "aitch" or "haitch."


I see, thanks, that's OK then. I actually did search but couldn't find.


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## blueeastwd

I work at an army depot in Northeastern Pennsylvania.  People work here from all over Northeastern Pa.  A lot of people pronounce "h" as "haitch".  Where did this pronounciation originally come from?


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## Pedro y La Torre

Haitch is the standard prononciation in Ireland.



Kiwikatipo said:


> 'Haitch' sounds amazingly lower socio economic to me


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## nzfauna

I'm a NZer, and we *all* say [aytch]. 

We only have one pronunciation for the letter H, so it has nothing to do with class, or socio-economic, or regional status.

If someone in NZ (with a NZ accent) _did_ say [haytch] we would point it out, make fun of them, and presume they had grown up in Australia.


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## ewie

I was, frankly, amazed to read about the (Irish) Catholic / Protestant connection here.  I've heard British folk saying both _aitch_ and _haitch_ all my life, and had never made the connection.  At a rough guess I'd say I hear one _haitch_ for every twenty-five _aitches_.


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## panjandrum

Pedro y La Torre said:


> Haitch is the standard prononciation in Ireland.


In some sections of some parts of Ireland.
See comments earlier in the thread.


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## liliput

<This and the following fourteen (!) posts were split from the thread Chemical formulas.>



Ann O'Rack said:


> H2SO4
> 
> is pronounced "Haitch - two - ess - oh - four", so unless you're trying to read out something really complicated, you can't go wrong with just saying the letters and numbers as written.
> 
> (Of course you can be a total show-off and translate the formula into the substance and just call it sulphuric acid!)


 
"Haitch" is a non-standard pronunciation (and spelling). H is actually an aitch.


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## Ann O'Rack

liliput said:


> "Haitch" is a non-standard pronunciation (and spelling). H is actually an aitch.


 
That depends on your accent and cultural background. I had Irish parents, so I pronounce the haitch at the beginning of haitch.


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## liliput

Ann O'Rack said:


> That depends on your accent and cultural background. I had Irish parents, so I pronounce the haitch at the beginning of haitch.


 
Precisely why I used the phrase "non-standard" rather than "wrong"


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## pickarooney

How do you come to the conclusion that aspirating an aspirant (haitch) is non-standard?


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## Ann O'Rack

pickarooney said:


> How do you come to the conclusion that aspirating an aspirant (haitch) is non-standard?


 
Cue William Tell overture - cavalry arrives!


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## liliput

pickarooney said:


> How do you come to the conclusion that aspirating an aspirant (haitch) is non-standard?


 
Well, "haitch" is apparently part of the Irish lexicon. However, as far as I'm aware most of the rest of the educated English speaking world say and write _aitch._
Another big clue is that _aitch_ is listed in the dictionary as the letter H, whereas _haitch_ doesn't appear to be in any dictionary. Not even as an alternative, slang or non-standard version of _aitch_


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## bluegiraffe

liliput said:


> Well, "haitch" is apparently part of the Irish lexicon. However, as far as I'm aware most of the rest of the educated English speaking world say and write _aitch._


 
I'm from England.  I'm very well educated and I would say "haitch".  So would pretty much everyone I know.  I think that accent wins out here.


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## pickarooney

liliput said:


> Not even as an alternative, slang or *non-standard* version of _aitch_



Ah, so it's _not _non-standard now?


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## liliput

bluegiraffe said:


> I'm from England. I'm very well educated and I would say "haitch". So would pretty much everyone I know. I think that accent wins out here.


 
I'm also from England, and have only heard it once or twice there. It made me cringe (no offence to the Irish - I'm sure it sounds perfectly natural with an Irish accent). Apparently it's on the rise in England - looking up "haitch" on google I can find nothing but pages of comments from people complaining about the increasing numbers of people pronouncing aitch as haitch.

The word is spelt out in the dictionary "aitch" so where does the h in "haitch" come from?
Two theories I've seen so far:
1) Over-correction by people who've been accused of dropping their aitches.
2) Irish nuns in Catholic schools outside Ireland insisting on Irish pronunciation (certainly seems to be the case in Australasia)

In any case. Given that all dictionaries list _aitch_ and not _haitch_, it's a logical conclusion that _aitch_ is standard and _haitch_ is non-standard but gaining ground.

<The link is no longer necessary since the threads are now merged. Thank you.>http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=375739


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## liliput

pickarooney said:


> Ah, so it's _not _non-standard now?


 
Not according to the dictionaries. Non-existent would be more like it. I was just trying to be polite.


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## bluegiraffe

liliput said:


> Two theories I've seen so far:
> 1) Over-correction by people who've been accused of dropping their aitches.
> 2) Irish nuns in Catholic schools outside Ireland insisting on Irish pronunciation (certainly seems to be the case in Australasia)


 
1)I've never been accused of dropping my haitches.  I do as I have a Nottinghamshire accent, as do people in Derbyshire, Leicestershire and other areas in the north.
2) I did not go to Catholic school.  I am not Catholic.  I have never had an Irish teacher.  I've never been to Australasia.

Just because you claim not to have "_ever_" heard it and just because some people are complaining on the internet, does not mean it doesn't exist or isn't in wide usage.  There was a time when people who did not speak RP were told they didn't speak correctly, I thought times had changed.  Apparently not on this forum.


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## bluegiraffe

liliput said:


> The word is spelt out in the dictionary "aitch" so where does the h in "haitch" come from?


 
I would say the h in haitch comes from the fact it means "h".  We pronounce the letter in a word as "hu" so of course it makes sense to start with a h - like haitch.


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## liliput

bluegiraffe said:


> 1)I've never been accused of dropping my haitches. I do as I have a Nottinghamshire accent, as do people in Derbyshire, Leicestershire and other areas in the north.
> 2) I did not go to Catholic school. I am not Catholic. I have never had an Irish teacher. I've never been to Australasia.
> 
> Just because you claim not to have "_ever_" heard it and just because some people are complaining on the internet, does not mean it doesn't exist or isn't in wide usage. There was a time when people who did not speak RP were told they didn't speak correctly, I thought times had changed. Apparently not on this forum.


 
There are many misconceptions to deal with here:

Even if you've never been accused of dropping your aitches and have never had Catholic teachers that doesn't mean that the same applies to the people who taught you or to other people in your area, or to the people who taught or influenced them.

I did not claim to have never heard it.
I did not claim it doesn't exist - it would be unusual to find people complaining about it if it didn't.
I didn't claim it wasn't in wide usage either - again it would be unusual to see so much controversy over the issue if there weren't significant numbers of people involved.

My accent is not RP and clearly that's not how the majority of English speakers speak. Here is a definition of Standard English:

Standard English is the dialect of English used by most educated English speakers and is spoken with a variety of accents. While not _in itself_ any better than any other dialect, *standard English is the form of English used in all formal written contexts. *

Clearly if all the dictionaries list "aitch" as the correct word, "haitch" is not the form used in all formal written contexts.


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## bluegiraffe

I really object to your use of "educated English speakers", you are implying that "haitch" is only said by the unwashed masses, lounging in their illiteracy.

I agree that the majority of people do not speak with RP, that's why I was amazed that you were critising this use of haitch when Ann O'Rack used it.  I did not state that everyone speaks RP or that you do, I said that things are changing and it used to be considered that RP was the only correct way to speak, it no longer is.  Just as it used to be considered that the letter "h" had to be pronounced "aitch", I would point to the fact that so many people are complaining about it (your statement) to prove it is widespread.


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## bluegiraffe

liliput said:


> I'm also from England, and have only heard it once or twice there. It made me cringe (no offence to the Irish - I'm sure it sounds perfectly natural with an Irish accent).


 
OK, my mistake, you didn't say you'd never heard it, but only heard it once or twice.  I've left in the next line which I also considered to be offensive.


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## Pedro y La Torre

Haitch is _not_ non-standard, the only reason it may not be listed is because most dictionaries come from England or the United States where the pronunciation is not popular, or at least not accepted by the powers that be.

In the Republic of Ireland it is the standard way of pronouncing the word - it doesn't function as a shibboleth here as it does in Northern Ireland, I know that for a fact as I went to a Protestant secondary school - which, by the way, would also preclude the suggestion that it originated as an Irish Catholic phenomenon.

Both are perfectly acceptable. There is nothing wrong with pronouncing the letter as "haitch" (to illustrate aspiration it makes far more sense in any case). I find it strange that one might claim that it's a mark of a lack of education. Nothing could be further from the truth.


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## liliput

bluegiraffe said:


> I really object to your use of "educated English speakers", you are implying that "haitch" is only said by the unwashed masses, lounging in their illiteracy.





bluegiraffe said:


> I agree that the majority of people do not speak with RP, that's why I was amazed that you were critising this use of haitch when Ann O'Rack used it. I did not state that everyone speaks RP or that you do, I said that things are changing and it used to be considered that RP was the only correct way to speak, it no longer is. Just as it used to be considered that the letter "h" had to be pronounced "aitch", I would point to the fact that so many people are complaining about it (your statement) to prove it is widespread.


 
Actually the expression was "*most* educated English speakers" thereby implying that a minority of educated English speakers *do* use it. No offense was intended or even implied. I should have made it clear that the definition of Standard English I quoted comes from the OED online. Where I grew up the use of "haitch" would indeed have been a mark of poor education, although possibly not if you had an interesting accent to go with it. 

I did not use the terms _correct_ or _in-correct_, I used the term _non-standard_ and explained its meaning. 

The problem is not so much that "h" be pronounced "haitch", rather that the standard spelling "aitch" be pronounced "haitch". Whatever the vagaries of English spelling, I can't think of any examples where we pronounce something that isn't represented in some way in the written form. Perhaps the dictionaries should be updated; actually I was surprised not to find it listed as some kind of alternative (regional or non-standard).

Widespread is not the same as predominant or standard. I have already acknowledged that "haitch" is widespread, but I suspect "aitch" is much more widespread. "Haitch" seems to be standard in Ireland but that's only 4 million out of 400 million people who speak English as a mother tongue and 700 million who speak it as a foreign language. It may also be common in Nottinghamshire but that’s a maximum of 700,000 people.
Let’s say that all the Irish, half the Australians and everyone from Nottinghamshire says “haitch” – that’s only 1.4% of the English-speaking world. Even if you discount non-native speakers it’s only 4%. Even so, I would think it worth including it in the dictionaries as a regional variation.




> OK, my mistake, you didn't say you'd never heard it, but only heard it once or twice. I've left in the next line which I also considered to be offensive.


 
Again, no offence intended. I've never heard "haitch" pronounced in an English accent without it sounding wrong to me, but I'm prepared to accept that it fits just as well with a Nottinghamshire accent as it does with an Irish one.
However, I find it hard to match the pronunciation with a Derbyshire accent, just as I find it hard to match the location of Derbyshire, Leicestershire and Nottinghamshire in the Midlands with the claim that they are "areas in the North" (that looks like non-standard geography to me, unless you’re referring to the North of Europe).



> I would say the h in haitch comes from the fact it means "h". We pronounce the letter in a word as "hu" so of course it makes sense to start with a h - like haitch.


 
That's nonsensical; not only does the rest of the word bear no relation to how we pronounce the letter in a word but also by the same logic we could have "lel", "mem", "quoo" "rar", "ses", "oo", "wubble-wu" and "yay".


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## Infininja

Aren't abbreviations frowned upon here? What is RP?


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## ewie

Infininja said:


> Aren't abbreviations frowned upon here? What is RP?


 That's one of the allowable ones, Infi.  RP = _Received Pronunciation_, which is ~ or rather: _was_ ~ the 'standard' pronunciation of *English *English such as one had to speak to get a job on air at the BBC up until about 1970ish.


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## Anatoli

I'd like to add that the name of the English letter is called *aitch*  in many other foreign languages - Russian (эйч - _ejč_), Japanese (standard エイチ (_eichi_) but also エッチ (_etchi_) but with a bad meaning H for _Hentai_), Chinese, Arabic (إتش), etc. "Aitch" was chosen over 'haitch" and it becomes a bit confusing for foreigners when they find out an alternative name for it. The name probably comes from modern French _ache_ /aʃ/, old French /atʃ/ where H is not even written, even if it were, h is silent in French.


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## ewie

liliput said:


> I've never heard "haitch" pronounced in an English accent without it sounding wrong to me


With all due respect, Lil, that rather telling phrase says more about _the way you hear it_ than about _the people who say it_


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## Infininja

ewie said:


> That's one of the allowable ones, Infi.  RP = _Received Pronunciation_, which is ~ or rather: _was_ ~ the 'standard' pronunciation of *English *English such as one had to speak to get a job on air at the BBC up until about 1970ish.



If that's the case, it should be added here for reference.

Thanks for the explanation. I didn't know about that.


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## Wayland

Crikey what a load of fuss over nothing. (Yes I seem to have got my grouchy head on this evening).

Could someone point me in the direction of the (possibly non-existent very ancient AngloSaxon) book which dictates how we should all use the same pronunciations/accents?


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## natkretep

If it is of any interest, I suspect _haitch _is the majority pronunciation here in Singapore. Don't ask me where this came from - there might _just _be a connection to the fact that there are many Catholic schools here where previously many of the teachers were Irish nuns or Irish 'brothers'.


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## Anatoli

natkretep said:


> If it is of any interest, I suspect _haitch _is the majority pronunciation here in Singapore. Don't ask me where this came from - there might _just _be a connection to the fact that there are many Catholic schools here where previously many of the teachers were Irish nuns or Irish 'brothers'.


Yes, you're probably right. It's very common for the same reason in Australia and New Zealand, although some young people I know cringe at haitch and of course, there are many who use aitch. The debate about which one is right happens on Australian forums, blogs and radio discussions.


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## Pedro y La Torre

This article deals with the whole "problem" quite well. From a linguistic (and social) point of view, either way should be acceptable.



> Those of you who say *aitch* would do well to bear in mind that an accident of linguistic change has meant that the Latin *ha* - the name for the letter which illustrated the aspiration - has been altered by degrees through *aha* to *ache* to *aitch* - a name that no longer illustrates aspiration.


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## bluegiraffe

liliput said:


> That's nonsensical; not only does the rest of the word bear no relation to how we pronounce the letter in a word but also by the same logic we could have "lel", "mem", "quoo" "rar", "ses", "oo", "wubble-wu" and "yay".


 
Yes, this is nonsensical.  Haitch has reference to the "h" sound, aitch does not, it references "ch".  "el" has an L in it, "em" has an M in it... etc.  "Double U" and "Why" are obvious exceptions but I have no idea where these things come from.  My objection is not to your use of aitch, but your horror that other people say haitch and your obvious feeling of superiority that you use what you deem to be the "correct" pronunciation and others do not.

This forum is predominantly used by non-native-English speakers (let's not start a debate about the use of hyphens/em dashes etc in that sentence) who wish to improve their English.  Some ask for American words/phrases, others for British English, some do not state a preference.  Therefore I do not think we should only be teaching them "standard" English pronunciation, used by the "majority" of English speakers but standard English in all it's variations (and all it's glory).  I think it's fair to say that students of English will not only encounter speakers of "standard", grammatically correct, Southern-England accented English.  You may or may not accept my explanation that haitch is widespread in my area of the country *and* some parts of the north of England (no, I do not consider Nottingham, Derbyshire, Leicestershire etc to be northern), however the fact that people from Ireland use this pronunciation should be enough to make it standard in your eyes, despite what the dictionary says.  Language is changing and dictionaries are not infallable and all-knowing.  If they were, there would be no use for this forum.


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## pickarooney

Anatoli said:


> The name probably comes from modern French _ache_ /aʃ/, old French /atʃ/ where H is not even written, even if it were, h is silent in French.



I've never seen the letter H written out in word form in French, but I suspect if it were, it would be written _hache_ like the word for 'axe'. French differentiates between aspirated and non-aspirated H sounds, (which is why one says _la hache_ as opposed to _l'heure_) although the difference is virtually inaudible. _Ache _is type of herb. 

The letter itself, eighth in the alphabet, is similar in position and shape to, and probably derived from, the Hebrew _Het _which is strongly aspirated.


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## liliput

ewie said:


> With all due respect, Lil, that rather telling phrase says more about _the way you hear it_ than about _the people who say it_


 
Indeed it does, it was a statement about myself and wasn't intended to say anything about anyone else. We were educated to pronounce the letter aitch "aitch", and the pronunciation "haitch" would be immediately corrected. The natural assumption then, especially for a youngster, would be that someone in the same region who didn't pronounce it this way either hadn't received the benefit of correction or hadn't paid attention. Presumably "aitch" would sound just as wrong to someone who was educated to say "haitch".


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## liliput

bluegiraffe said:


> Yes, this is nonsensical. Haitch has reference to the "h" sound, aitch does not, it references "ch". "el" has an L in it, "em" has an M in it... etc. "Double U" and "Why" are obvious exceptions but I have no idea where these things come from. My objection is not to your use of aitch, but your horror that other people say haitch and your obvious feeling of superiority that you use what you deem to be the "correct" pronunciation and others do not.
> 
> This forum is predominantly used by non-native-English speakers (let's not start a debate about the use of hyphens/em dashes etc in that sentence) who wish to improve their English. Some ask for American words/phrases, others for British English, some do not state a preference. Therefore I do not think we should only be teaching them "standard" English pronunciation, used by the "majority" of English speakers but standard English in all it's variations (and all it's glory). I think it's fair to say that students of English will not only encounter speakers of "standard", grammatically correct, Southern-England accented English. You may or may not accept my explanation that haitch is widespread in my area of the country *and* some parts of the north of England (no, I do not consider Nottingham, Derbyshire, Leicestershire etc to be northern), however the fact that people from Ireland use this pronunciation should be enough to make it standard in your eyes, despite what the dictionary says. Language is changing and dictionaries are not infallable and all-knowing. If they were, there would be no use for this forum.


 
I reiterate that I never used the term "correct". By standard English we mean majority usage and usage in formal written contexts, as I stated in an earlier post. I have lived in four different regions of England (north-west, north-east, south-west and south-east) and "haitch" was not common in any of them, nor is it listed in any dictionary, therefore I don't consider it standard. If it's standard in Ireland I would consider that a regional variation that should be listed in the dictionary as such. After all, the dictionary contains many references to what you and I would consider common expressions and usages which are marked as "Cheifly Brit." for example.
I agree wholeheartedly that learners of English should be aware of variations in pronunciation and spelling. I always encourage teachers to teach English as they speak it and I do this myself - I certainly wouldn't try to teach my students to speak with an RP or a southern accent. This is why I avoided the words "wrong" and "incorrect". You have every right to tell other forum users that it's pronounced "haitch", but I have an equal right to point out that this is not standard and not how I pronounce it. Thus learners are aware of the facts - they would not be if a statement such as "h is pronounced "haitch"" were left unchallenged.


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## Pedro y La Torre

liliput said:


> I have lived in four different regions of England (north-west, north-east, south-west and south-east) and "haitch" was not common in any of them, nor is it listed in any dictionary, therefore I don't consider it standard.



I'm sure you don't use "zee" either but I doubt you'd term it "non-standard". 
As far as I'm concerned haitch and aitch are both acceptable pronunciations of the letter H.


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## liliput

Pedro y La Torre said:


> I'm sure you don't use "zee" either but I doubt you'd term it "non-standard".
> As far as I'm concerned haitch and aitch are both acceptable pronunciations of the letter H.


 
Of course not. Whether or not I use it or like it is irrelevant. _Zee_ is the standard American English pronunciation and it is listed as such in dictionaries. We can assume that there are somewhere in the region of 300 million (possibly more) native-English speakers who use this pronunciation. You can also add to that figure all the non-native English speakers who've had American teachers. It's standard for the majority of English speakers.  The same cannot be said for "haitch". I would make my students aware of both pronunciations of Z but teach them my own.

If their are significant numbers of people who treat "haitch" as standard then perhaps this should be reflected in the dictionaries. As this is not currently the case, and it is not standard usage for the majority, I think it would be inappropriate in almost all formal contexts and it would be unfair to teach non-native speakers that this form is *generally* accepted.
To give a similar (and probably more widespread) example, many people use "was" instead of "were" in the conditional. I tell my students that this is common among native speakers but I teach them to use "were" because using the non-standard form may affect how they are percieved by other people. 
If you consider that both forms are acceptable and others consider that only _aitch _is acceptable then it's a much safer bet for me to teach _aitch_. The majority of people accept it and it's the only one I can currently point to in a dictionary.


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## Ann O'Rack

Pedro y La Torre said:


> I'm sure you don't use "zee" either but I doubt you'd term it "non-standard".
> As far as I'm concerned haitch and aitch are both acceptable pronunciations of the letter H.


 
(Only when singing the alphabet song - "wubble-wu, ecks, why and zed" doesn't sound quite right!) 

I completely agree with your second point, and I think that just about draws a line under it. Just because a pronunciation is non-standard doesn't mean it's unacceptable.


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## Pedro y La Torre

liliput said:


> Of course not. Whether or not I use it or like it is irrelevant. _Zee_ is the standard American English pronunciation and it is listed as such in dictionaries. We can assume that there are somewhere in the region of 300 million (possibly more) native-English speakers who use this pronunciation. You can also add to that figure all the non-native English speakers who've had American teachers. It's standard for the majority of English speakers.  The same cannot be said for "haitch". I would make my students aware of both pronunciations of Z but teach them my own.



Why then do you not do the same for haitch and Hiberno-English?
If Ireland becomes a world power tomorrow, does our opinion then count?
Many thousands of people come to Ireland each year to learn English. Are we teaching them a falsehood by saying H can be pronounced as haitch?



liliput said:


> As this is not currently the case, and it is not standard usage for the majority, I think it would be inappropriate in almost all formal contexts and it would be unfair to teach non-native speakers that this form is *generally* accepted.



So, again, you're saying that if Ireland and Australia grow to 300 million people, it will suddenly become "standard"?

It might not be accepted in formal contexts where *you are*, fine. However, it is where I am, and I've never once been told by anyone from England (or elsewhere) that my pronunciation of H is unacceptable. If they were to state so, then it merely reflects their lack of education, not mine.



liliput said:


> To give a similar (and probably more widespread) example, many people use "was" instead of "were" in the conditional. I tell my students that this is common among native speakers but I teach them to use "were" because using the non-standard form may affect how they are percieved by other people.



That is absolutely unrelated. Using was instead of were is a grammar mistake. Pronouncing haitch instead of aitch* is not*. In fact, from a logical point of view, pronouncing the letter as haitch makes more sense as it reflects aspiration. The _aitch_ pronunciation does not.

I sincerely hope you are not trying to imply that Irish people speak a non-standard version of English because they pronounce H as haitch.



liliput said:


> If you consider that both forms are acceptable and others consider that only _aitch _is acceptable then it's a much safer bet for me to teach _aitch_. The majority of people accept it and it's the only one I can currently point to in a dictionary.



As a teacher I'm sure you inform your students that Americans say zee for Z. In the same way you have a duty to say that the Irish and many Australians say haitch instead of aitch.

Neither are mistakes, they are simply differing ways of pronouncing the letter.


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## bluegiraffe

Pedro y La Torre said:


> In the same way you have a duty to say that the Irish and many Australians say haitch instead of aitch.


 
And some English people!  I know some people don't want to accept that, but it's true.  And plenty of those English people are well educated.


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## ewie

bluegiraffe said:


> And some English people!  I know some people don't want to accept that, but it's true.  And plenty of those English people are well educated.


Hear hear, BG.  As I said in my first post in this thread about 12 years ago, I hear _haitch_ *plenty** ~ I have done all my life ~ and I've never been able to pinpoint (or even roughly infer) just _who_ 'the culprits' [] are: it's always felt very random to me.

*Admittedly not nearly as often as _aitch_, but I would by no means call _haitch_ 'rare' in English English.


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## liliput

> Why then do you not do the same for haitch and Hiberno-English?


 
Frankly, I was unaware that "haitch" was considered standard anywhere - Irish English isn't as ubiquitous as American English. In future I shall be sure to tell students that Irish people pronounce aitch in this way.



> If Ireland becomes a world power tomorrow, does our opinion then count?


 
I have not said your opinion doesn't count, in fact I pointed out that "haitch" should be included in the dictionary as a regional variation. In any case, the issue of standard usage relates to the proportion of English speakers using it, not to how much power a country has or whether people think its opinion counts. 
300 million Americans won't change zee for zed simply because 60 million Brits say that zed is correct, and vice versa, and 700 million English speakers aren't going to change aitch for haitch just because 4 million Irish insist on it. 
However, if at least one entire country uses this form then it should surely be noted in the dictionaries as part of the dialect.



> Many thousands of people come to Ireland each year to learn English. Are we teaching them a falsehood by saying H can be pronounced as haitch?


 
Of course it's not a falsehood if that's how it's pronounced in Ireland. I have already said that English teachers should teach English as they speak it and that "haitch" should be marked in dictionaries as a regional variation. The issue is not whether it can be pronounced as "haitch" but whether students should be taught that "haitch" is Standard English. It is not the form used by most English speakers and not currently accepted as standard and students should be aware of that.



> So, again, you're saying that if Ireland and Australia grow to 300 million people, it will suddenly become "standard"?


 
I imagine so, although probably not "suddenly" and such population growth is probably not necessary. Perhaps the transition has already started. It won't of course be the only standard form.



> It might not be accepted in formal contexts where *you are*, fine. However, it is where I am, and I've never once been told by anyone from England (or elsewhere) that my pronunciation of H is unacceptable. If they were to state so, then it merely reflects their lack of education, not mine.


 
Precisely why I said *most* formal contexts - i.e. all formal contexts outside of the few places where "haitch" is considered correct. I want my student to be able to deal with people from all over the world not just Ireland and Australia. I'm sure that in most circumstances no-one would blink an eye if a non-native speaker said "haitch" instead of "aitch", but I can certainly picture circumstances in which even a small perceived error could make a big difference. As can easily be seen on the internet, some people have particularly vitriolic reactions to "haitch", I don't think the same is true of _aitch_.
It would be hard for people of different regions to have conversations with each other if they stopped to try and correct every difference in pronunciation. I'm sure most people would see that your pronunciation as part of your dialect and even if they didn't and they considered it wrong, no doubt as you say, they politely said nothing. 





> That is absolutely unrelated. Using was instead of were is a grammar mistake. Pronouncing haitch instead of aitch* is not*. In fact, from a logical point of view, pronouncing the letter as haitch makes more sense as it reflects aspiration. The _aitch_ pronunciation does not.


 
Perhaps a spelling error would be closer, or people who pronounce hotel as "otel". But actually, if you look at discussions about such grammar points you will find many people insisting that usage dictates the grammar, not books, and that therefore this widespread usage should not be considered a mistake. You are saying exactly the same thing about "haitch".

I do not agree with the logic of your conclusion, nor do I consider it particularly relevant - English pronuciation is not particularly logical anyway.



> I sincerely hope you are not trying to imply that Irish people speak a non-standard version of English because they pronounce H as haitch.


 
That's not what I was implying; just because someone uses one non-standard word doesn't mean that their English as a whole is non-standard. Your use of the term Hiberno-English, however, is a much stronger suggestion that the form of English spoken in Ireland is non-standard. A dialect is distinguished by its vocabulary and its grammar. Standard English is a dialect and Hiberno English is another one. They have differences and one is more widely spoken than the other but neither is intrinsically better or worse than the other.




> As a teacher I'm sure you inform your students that Americans say zee for Z. In the same way you have a duty to say that the Irish and many Australians say haitch instead of aitch.


 
I shall certainly do so, now that I'm aware of it (see above). However, I will train them to use _aitch. _


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## Anatoli

As for Australia (and New Zealand), I believe haitch is _common_ (so is aitch) but I don't know if it's considered _standard_ here. Actually, New Zealand is now more americanised than Australia, as they now allow both American and British spellings at school. My daughter says kids are taught to say "aitch" at school.


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## pickarooney

I wouldn't have imagined that (some) Australians say haitch as most Australians I've met or heard speak with accents where word-initial Hs (and word-final Rs) seem to be dropped more often than not.

Now, I would never suggest for a minute that just because a minority don't pronounce their Rs that their English is in any way wrong, non-standard, sub-standard or cringeworthy. That would be plain daft.


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## ewie

Shocking discovery!

Me and a certain gentleman of my acquaintance who I've been living with for the past six years were in his car yesterday, and I was getting a telling-off for surreptitiously dropping my sweetie wrappers on the floor.  In mock_(ish)_ exasperation he addressed me by my first name, middle initial (which happens to be _H_), last name: _I can see what you're doing, E_ H. P____!_
Shock horror! ~ he says _haitch_.

It's either:
(a) he's never said _H_ in my hearing before ~ highly unlikely; or
(b) I've never really noticed it before, or thought it worthy of notice ~ highly likely.
He's white; middle class; age 46 minus 5 days; not uneducated; protestant (technically); from Wiltshire in the south of England.

_End of newsflash_


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## natkretep

ewie said:


> In mock_(ish)_ exasperation he addressed me by my first name, middle initial (which happens to be _H_), last name: _I can see what you're doing, E_ H. P____!_
> Shock horror! ~ he says _haitch_.



Well, Mr P, did you determine whether he pronounced it this way for effect or whether it was his normal pronunciation (because he certainly said E— H. P— for effect)?


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## liliput

This reminds me of a joke I saw quoted on another forum, attributed to Jimmy Carr. Apologies in advance to anyone who finds it in poor taste; personally I think it's an amusing commentary on the strength of some people's feelings about haitch:

My girlfriend just told me she has HIV.
Of course I went absolutely mental. 
I said "It's *aitch*-eye-vee not *haitch*-eye-vee!"


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## jackaustralia

I have searched the forum but didn't see this question being addressed. I was just speaking to my rather snobby family members who told me that my pronounciation of the letter 'h' was incorrect and what an "uneducated" person would say. I said 'hach' and they said it should be more like 'ach.' I think the difference is between the US and British English pronounciation. We were an English colony but US English is becoming very influential and Australia is a distinct dialect. I suppose my family considers 'ach' to be more "traditional" being the British way of saying it. Do people agree that the difference is mainly British and American English or is there a distinction that I have missed? Apologies if I have not spelt the words phonetically correct.


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## JamesM

The "haitch" pronunciation is related to British English in my mind.  American English pronounces it "aitch" in most dialects.


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## JulianStuart

Tough one to search for but here's a discussion of the subject (in a Kiwi context but aitch vs haitch nonetheless)

_<< Thank you.  I merged the threads ... before realising how long the Kiwi thread had become  >>_


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## jackaustralia

Thank you. The link you gave answers my question. I'll try to search better next time.


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## Sikaranista

This is just my opinion.  As an American, I think many Americans have a feel for some differences between US English and UK English, but the pronunciation of "H" is one that takes many of us by surprise.  Many of us know "Z" as being "Zee" and "Zed", but I don't think many of us know that "H" is pronounced differently. 

I didn't know until I went to an engineering training session that was lead by a gentleman from Wales.  He got in to an explanation of some data and said what sounded to us like "The data in Hage Twelve".   That sounded confusing to me, it sounded kind of like he meant "Page 12", so I turned to page 12 in the training guide.  Other people did too...I heard a voice behind me said "I turned to Page 12, but I don't see the data you are referring to".

The trainer seemed a bit confused for a moment, then he pointed to his Excel spreadsheet on the overhead projector.   "Hage Twelve, this is Hage Twelve."  We still seemed confused.  He then drew lines showing that it was the data in Column H, Row 12.  That was when we realized that that "Hage Twelve" meant *H12*.

If American English is a strong influence, then that makes me wonder if the if the "Hache" pronunciation is getting a bad rap where you are because it is confusing to American English speakers.


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## JulianStuart

jackaustralia said:


> Thank you. The link you gave answers my question. I'll try to search better next time.


Like I said - not that easy to figure out how to spell it.  Like trying to look up a word in a dictionary if you don't know what letter it begins with 


Sikaranista said:


> This is just my opinion.  As an American, I think many Americans have a feel for some differences between US English and UK English, but the pronunciation of "H" is one that takes many of us by surprise.  Many of us know "Z" as being "Zee" and "Zed", but I don't think many of us know that "H" is pronounced differently.
> 
> I didn't know until I went to an engineering training session that was lead by a gentleman from Wales.  He got in to an explanation of some data and said what sounded to us like "The data in Hage Twelve".   That sounded confusing to me, it sounded kind of like he meant "Page 12", so I turned to page 12 in the training guide.  Other people did too...I heard a voice behind me said "I turned to Page 12, but I don't see the data you are referring to".
> 
> The trainer seemed a bit confused for a moment, then he pointed to his Excel spreadsheet on the overhead projector.   "Hage Twelve, this is Hage Twelve."  We still seemed confused.  He then drew lines showing that it was the data in Column H, Row 12.  That was when we realized that that "Hage Twelve" meant *H12*.
> 
> If American English is a strong influence, then that makes me wonder if the if the "Hache" pronunciation is getting a bad rap where you are because it is confusing to American English speakers.


I've not spent much time in Australia or NZ (although I have visited both) but having spent a few decades each in the US and the UK, I still find haitch a rarity.  Everyone in the UK says zed but few say haitch.


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## Hermione Golightly

> few say haitch.


I am surrounded by haitch sayers especially younger people which means under 40's in my case. Is it more a southern English thing?



HG


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## Gwan

Looong thread - who knew the pronunciation of a humble letter of the alphabet could arouse such passion? - but just thought I'd add my two cents because way back someone claimed that _no-one _said 'haitch' in NZ English. In my experience, it's fairly rare, but it exists. I went to Catholic school, for the record (this observation is relevant if you bother reading the thread), but was raised saying 'aitch' nonetheless


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## bluegiraffe

JulianStuart said:


> Everyone in the UK says zed but few say haitch.


 I assume you didn't read the rest of this thread?


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## Spira

Prounouncing the letter Haitch while dropping them in everyday speech was also considered common and rather amusing when I was a child in London. So much so that Parker, Lady Penelope's cockney chauffeur in Thunderbirds, with his caricaturial accent used to say things like "It's Mr. 'Arrison to see you , Madame. 'Arrison with a haitch".


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## BigAl_LBL

bluegiraffe said:


> Yes, this is nonsensical.  Haitch has reference to the "h" sound, "aitch" does not, it references "ch"




Hold your hand directly in front of your mouth and say "aitch". You will notice that the final "tch" not only produces an aspirate sound it is an aid to the production of the aspirate sound. The hard "H" added to the beginning of "aitch" appears to have stemmed from over correction amongst people concerned with being accused of dropping their "aitches" [1]         



JamesM said:


> The "haitch" pronunciation is related to British English in my mind.  American English pronounces it "aitch" in most dialects.




Actually "Haitch", outside of the South West,  is very uncommon in England although it's usage has become more common over recent years 


[1] Journal of Linguistics, Vol. 8, No. 2 (Sep., 1972), pp. 293-295, Cambridge University Press


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## Englishmypassion

Following posts moved from: H as in herb [pronunciation] (and other herb- words)
Cagey, moderator 



london calling said:


> In London for a start, where they also add aitches where they aren't needed in an effort to sound posh.



Isn't your post contradictory?


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## london calling

Not at all. As I said they add aitches where they shouldn't. It's known as H-insertion and is a form of hyper-correction. For example in London you will hear 'haitch' instead of 'aitch'.


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## heypresto

'Haitch' crops up all over the place.

In Wales, I once overheard a mother correcting her young son "No, darling, we don't pronounce the haitch in 'honour'." I didn't know whether to laugh or cry.


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## london calling

velisarius said:


> "Haitch" is  an established  regional pronunciation.


But it is still wrong.


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## heypresto

london calling said:


> Hi don't know,' ow you don't compre'end, innit. S'normal when you speak like what hi do. What's a haitch between mates?



I recognise that sort of 'aitch-addition'. But is it real, I wonder, or a Mockney stereotype/Dick Van Dyke thing?


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## ewie

london calling said:


> But it is still wrong.


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## london calling

heypresto said:


> I recognise that sort of 'aitch-addition'. But is it real, I wonder, or a Mockney stereotype/Dick Van Dyke thing?


H-insertion is a real phenomenon which isn't confined to London. Obviously I was joking above.


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