# Spanish in the Catalan-speaking area - Special thread



## Metternich

Hello,

I just wanted to ask if the Eastern coast population, let's say the Catalanians (Barcelona, Valencia, Islas Balearas), speak Spanish apart of speaking Catalanian. Is there a bilinguism? Does a person who moves from Madrid to Barcelona need to learn Catalanian to be able to work there, to survive? Is it possible, in the Catalania, to speak Spanish (castillano) and manage? Do people understand?

Thank you very much for your answers. I'm sorry, I only understand very little Catalanian and my castillano is mediocre.


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## brau

First of all, let's get some things clear. The Catalonians (with an O) come from the ancient principality of Catalonia, one of the four main political entities of the old Crown of Aragon, along with Aragon, the Kingdom of Valencia and the Kingdom of Mallorca. Valencians and Balearic people are not and have never been deemed to be Catalans, even though some people there do feel themselves as catalans. All of these people, however, are naturally Catalan-speaking peoples (with the exception of some areas of Valencia where Spanish is the historical language). 

However, nowadays every single Catalan speaker is also a Spanish speaker. Yes, there is a bilinguism. There are actually many people here who speak only Spanish. If you go to Barcelona, for instance, you will hear Spanish and Catalan, and yes you will be able to speak Spanish and survive. If you're from Madrid, you may not survive but that's a whole different story. With that said, learning Catalan when one is living in a Catalan-speaking area is very recommendable and highly appreciated by local people, in some places more than others. If you work for the public administration, you are obliged to prove your knowledge of Catalan. 

I hope I've been helpful. Feel free to keep asking.


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## Metternich

Thank you very much for these explanations!!!

Though, I still don't really understand the difference you make between the adjective Catalonian and Catalan... What's their Spanish version actually?


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## jester.

Catalonia is the region. It's called Cataluña in Castilian and Catalunya in Catalan.

The adjective in English is Catalan and only Catalan. The word Catalonian does not exist. Catalan is catalán in Castilian and català in Catalan.

The language is called Catalan in English, catalán in Castilian and català in Catalan.


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## Dixie!

brau said:


> However, nowadays every single Catalan speaker is also a Spanish speaker. Yes, there is a bilinguism.



Sorry brau but I have to say that your statements (both of them) are not true. 

First of all, Catalan-speaking people from Northern Catalonia (Catalunya Nord) do not speak Spanish.

And second of all, we should differentiate between *bilinguism *and *diglossia*, the latter being the real situation currently in the Catalan Countries.


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## Metternich

Dixie, what do you call Catalunya Nord? The Barcelona area? Or the French part of Catalonia?


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## Dixie!

Metternich said:


> Dixie, what do you call Catalunya Nord? The Barcelona area? Or the French part of Catalonia?



Those French territories were Catalan is spoken. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalunya_del_Nord


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## TraductoraPobleSec

And, guys, you're forgetting to tell Metternich about l'Alguer in Sardinia!


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## Dixie!

TPS is right.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alghero


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## brau

Dixie! said:


> Sorry brau but I have to say that your statements (both of them) are not true.
> 
> First of all, Catalan-speaking people from Northern Catalonia (Catalunya Nord) do not speak Spanish.
> 
> And second of all, we should differentiate between *bilinguism *and *diglossia*, the latter being the real situation currently in the Catalan Countries.



About the first statement, that's true. I forgot to mention Northern Catalonia and Alguer.

About the second one, I was talking about individuals, not in social terms.


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## Cracker Jack

Metternich said:


> Hello,
> 
> I just wanted to ask if the Eastern coast population, let's say the Catalanians (Barcelona, Valencia, Islas Balearas), speak Spanish apart of  *from* speaking Catalanian. Is there a bilingu*al*ism? Does a person who moves from Madrid to Barcelona need to learn Catalanian to be able to work there, to survive? Is it possible, in the Catalania, to speak Spanish (castillano) and manage? Do people understand?
> 
> Thank you very much for your answers. I'm sorry, I only understand very little Catalanian and my castillano is mediocre.


 
Hi Metternich.  I am going to answer you from a point of view of a foreigner thriving and surpassing everything in this region.  In Metropolitan Barcelona, bilingualism and most barcelonenses (residents of Barcelona) with a batting average of let's say 99% also speak Spanish.  In fact in public signboards, it is evident that Barcelona is taking a stab at being trilingual  (signboards and announcements in public places are in Catalan, Spanish and English).  It is somewhat instinctual for Catalans to speak Spanish when they are addressing someone who doesn't look Spanish or Catalan.  So if you plan to go to or study/work at Barcelona, you have to have a good command of Spanish.  Although there are people who speak Catalan at first meeting.  However, if you reply in Spanish, they will talk to you in Spanish.

If you plan to be a government employee, you will be required to present evidence of language proficiency via Certificat C, which is equivalent to the FCE of the Cambridge University.  However, it is not uncommon to find Spanish immigrants and foreigners like British and Americans who have stayed for more than 10 years without speaking Spanish, let alone Catalan.  I would like to share my thoughts on this.  To me it is a moral responsibility to learn Catalan if you have a protracted stay of more than 5 years because it is more than enough time to learn Spanish as well as Catalan.

It is not an absolute obligation to speak Catalan but you will be endeared to them if you speak their language.  They will love you and respect you for it.  However, there are people who, although Catalan, will respond in Spanish.  Insist on speaking Catalan.  To them I say ''COLLONS! Per què em contestes en castellà? in an angry tone.  You have to be daring in order to learn.

You can survive if you only speak Spanish, however if you speak Catalan, it will be like seeing rainbows and pots of gold everytime or understanding gusts of winds, buzzing of bees and rustling of leaves.  There is a wide-range difference in the way Catalans treat you if you learn their language - for the better, that is.

I hope I answered your questions.


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## chics

Hello!!!

I just would like that Andorra (a whole country!) was present here, since you have spoken of France (Catalunya Nord) and Alghero in Sardenya. 
We love them so much that often we tend to adopt them... but whem an Andorran will come to this forum (anyone yet? Oh, no! I'd like it so so much!!!!!) maybe he'll get a bit angry!


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## ajohan

Cracker Jack said:


> If you plan to be a government employee, you will be required to present evidence of language proficiency via Certificat C, which is equivalent to the FCE of the Cambridge University.


 
Good post Cracker Jack but I'd just like to add that the Junta Permanent Level C is far more difficult than the FCE in English and is actually designed for native speakers. Remember that the FCE is only an intermediate level exam for non-native English speakers, roughly equivalent to CERFL B2 (European levels) and there are many people in possession of it who can't hold a reasonably fluent conversation (with all due respect to them and their years of effort in learning English).


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## chics

Level "C" in fact is the short (and popular name) to European level CERFL C2, it means a degree of "bilinguism" and the equivalent of Cambridge for English is the _Proficiency_.

It's not at all an exam for natives since we are supposed to have this level when we finish ou secondary school. If some Catalan people wouldn't pass easily the exam some years after, without studing, it's for the same reason as not everybody in Britain would pass the C1 (or C2 or _Proficiency_) without studing.


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## ajohan

It's quite right of you Chics to say that the approximate level of the Junta Permanent is similar to Proficiency and that a lot of native speakers would probably fail the latter if they didn't study for it.
But I can't agree with this part



chics said:


> It's not at all an exam for natives


 
because a lot of native Catalan speakers *do *take it. However, it must be added that we are talking here about people of a certain age who didn't have the privelige (sic) to study their own language during their schooldays.
Exam content should also be taken into account because the Proficiency isn't really designed to measure such concepts as avoidance of 'barbarismes', rules of accent, apostrophe and partitive clitic positioning, distinguishing of homophones, etc.


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## chics

> a lot of native Catalan speakers *do *take it. However, it must be added that we are talking here about people of a certain age who didn't have the privelige (sic) to study their own language during their schooldays.


 
Yes, they had to study it after as a foreigner language in order to be able to write it properly (they spoke it well, usually). Others decided to took some lessons or any at all, learning it -more or less- only by reading.
Nowadays, in a thirty years old democracy, fortunately few Catalans need to study it as a foreigner language.


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## ampurdan

I've moved the posts dealing with the "Catalan/Catalonian" debate to this existing thread. I think that you'll need to subscribe to it again if you want to be notified when new contributions are posted.

Please, remember the question in the first post:



Metternich said:


> I just wanted to ask if the Eastern coast population, let's say the Catalanians (Barcelona, Valencia, Islas Balearas), speak Spanish apart of speaking Catalanian. Is there a bilinguism? Does a person who moves from Madrid to Barcelona need to learn Catalanian to be able to work there, to survive? Is it possible, in the Catalania, to speak Spanish (castillano) and manage? Do people understand?


 
Thanks,

ampurdan (moderator)


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## Cracker Jack

chics said:


> Level "C" in fact is the short (and popular name) to European level CERFL C2, it means a degree of "bilinguism" and the equivalent of Cambridge for English is the _Proficiency_.
> 
> It's not at all an exam for natives since we are supposed to have this level when we finish ou secondary school. If some Catalan people wouldn't pass easily the exam some years after, without studing, it's for the same reason as not everybody in Britain would pass the C1 (or C2 or _Proficiency_) without studing.


 
If Certificat C is parallel to C2 of the Common European Framework of Reference for Languages, then to what does Certificat D correspond?  If I am not mistaken C is between B2 and C1 and D is C2.  Some people refer to D as ''D de difícil.''


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## chics

Donc tens raó. M'havia basat en les explicacions d'unes amigues guiris que fan català... pobres! Ara els hauré de dir que desprès del C... _encara els quedarà el D!!!_ 

El D sembla ser equivalent al C2 europeu, i el C... pel que he vist podria ser ben bé el C1, que anomenen de "suficiència" però si et sembla més fàcil no et portaré la contraria... 
Mireu, us poso un enllaç a la pàgina de la Generalitat que descriu quins són els nivells A, B, C, D: aquí.
Pero comparar, un enllaç que explica en català quins són els nivells europeus A1, A2, B1, B2, C1, C2: aquí, i més extens (27 pàgines) aquí i de fet aquí.

Oh, Metter, you have a bit of official information about our langue, in English, here.


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## Eroldan

Cracker Jack said:


> Hi Metternich. I am going to answer you from a point of view of a foreigner thriving and surpassing everything in this region. In Metropolitan Barcelona, bilingualism and most barcelonenses (residents of Barcelona) with a batting average of let's say 99% also speak Spanish. In fact in public signboards, it is evident that Barcelona is taking a stab at being trilingual (signboards and announcements in public places are in Catalan, Spanish and English). It is somewhat instinctual for Catalans to speak Spanish when they are addressing someone who doesn't look Spanish or Catalan. So if you plan to go to or study/work at Barcelona, you have to have a good command of Spanish. Although there are people who speak Catalan at first meeting. However, if you reply in Spanish, they will talk to you in Spanish.
> 
> If you plan to be a government employee, you will be required to present evidence of language proficiency via Certificat C, which is equivalent to the FCE of the Cambridge University. However, it is not uncommon to find Spanish immigrants and foreigners like British and Americans who have stayed for more than 10 years without speaking Spanish, let alone Catalan. I would like to share my thoughts on this. To me it is a moral responsibility to learn Catalan if you have a protracted stay of more than 5 years because it is more than enough time to learn Spanish as well as Catalan.
> 
> It is not an absolute obligation to speak Catalan but you will be endeared to them if you speak their language. They will love you and respect you for it. However, there are people who, although Catalan, will respond in Spanish. Insist on speaking Catalan. To them I say ''COLLONS! Per què em contestes en castellà? in an angry tone. You have to be daring in order to learn.
> 
> You can survive if you only speak Spanish, however if you speak Catalan, it will be like seeing rainbows and pots of gold everytime or understanding gusts of winds, buzzing of bees and rustling of leaves. There is a wide-range difference in the way Catalans treat you if you learn their language - for the better, that is.
> 
> I hope I answered your questions.


 
Cracker Jack, that´s exactly, right, perfect.


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## e.ma

Some Majorcan people don't like to be addressed to in Majorcan or Catalan; they feel outsiders trying to speak it as an interference


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## TraductoraPobleSec

e.ma said:


> Some Majorcan people don't like to be addressed to in Majorcan or Catalan; they feel outsiders trying to speak it as an interference


 
E.ma,

I quite don't understand your statement . I don't get the "trying to speak it as an interference"... 

Muchas gracias y un saludito


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## ernest_

e.ma said:


> Some Majorcan people don't like to be addressed to in Majorcan or Catalan; they feel outsiders trying to speak it as an interference


 
Are you sure? How could Majorcan be seen as a foreign interference _in Majorca_?


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## xarruc

That seems perfectly natural to me.

We have all been in situations where an outsider has tried to 'fit in' and ended up being ridiculous and even offensive. It's like a school teacher starting a class with "yo kids, what's down in da streets den? or a foreigner moving to Fance and buying the berret, blue/white striped jumper and a stuffing two loaves in the bicylce basket.

Or how about a guiri coming to Barcelona and buying a Mexican hat?

I find local populations are keen and interested in sharing, or even selling, a major part of their city/culture/lifestyle, but also guard very fiercely a few sacred things. The tourists can come and fund our city, but I don't identify with them, even though they're my nationality. I don't want to share my local bar with them and I don't frequent theirs. 

I can imagine the use of a local language being very much an honour bestowed only on the most integrated of neighbours and colleagues. Mainland Catalunya is different because here it is such a hyperpolitical subject, as dealt with to death in the cultural forum, I can imagine other regions with minority languages are more like Mallorca is alleged to be.


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## TraductoraPobleSec

xarruc said:


> I can imagine the use of a local language being very much an honour bestowed only on the most integrated of neighbours and colleagues. Mainland Catalunya is different because here it is such a hyperpolitical subject, as dealt with to death in the cultural forum, I can imagine other regions with minority languages are more like Mallorca is alleged to be.


 
I have never spoken a word in Spanish in Majorca and have widely interacted with the locals, each of us speaking in our own "varietat dialectal". And then think of all the Majorcans who proudly use their tongue to share their art (Biel Mesquida, Carme Riera, Tomeu Penya, the guys in Antònia Font...)

Still, I believe that the best would be for Majorcans to speak their mind on this matter (Belén??????????????? Where are you???????????????) and tell us.

Mos veim, al·lotets!


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## ajohan

I'm sorry xaruc but I can't see the connection between dressing up as a French onion seller and speaking Catalan/Mallorcan in Mallorca. I only speak Catalan there too and have never encountered any problems.
I also think that save very few exceptions (bars where criminal activity is being perpetrated), people are willing to share their bars with you too, unlike the opening scene of American Werewolf in London.


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## xarruc

I was assuming the comment was about people who don't speak catalan using it, thinking about say an English holdiay maker holding the rough guide's 20 words of catalan or the newly arrived expat. I am sure that most catalans would willfully use catalan there without problem and the locals would reply to them in their catalan. I am sure that more or less any person fluent in catalan would go there and use catalan as appropriate.


My point was that locals like to keep some things local, and a local language is obviously quite dear to the region. I can see how a language might be a symbolic barrier between the private and the public, as when a barman takes off his apron and sits the otherside of the bar, he is off duty and you can't expect him to engage in the banal chatter he's paid to deliver to you.

Of course I dont know the situation there, and whether this is all hypothetical...

As for the bars, I avoid most bars on the ramblas most of the time as the service and quality is worse and the prices higher. If tourists flooded my local, I would swap bars because I prefer to have conversations pertinent to my life here as opposed to the same old discussion about how lovely it must be to live here if only they didnt have to look after uncle Joe, oh and the kids schooling too.....[yawn].... I'm sure you've been stuck in that one too before Ajohan!


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## chics

Good morning.

In Majorca, _Mallorquí _is spoken as English is also spoken in Scotland. Of course there are places where they (almost) only speak German, but thi is another question. 

You may only find some few hispanophones who came from out the island and who don't like to have to "learn German, English... and _Mallorquí_, too. What do you want?" to work there. Well, you'll guess what kind of people is, and we can find them all around Spain.

In Palma, Spanish and Mallorquí (_Majorican_?) use is similar to Barcelona, so there's bilinguism. Out of the capital, _Mallorquí _is more spoken. In Minorca few people doesn't talk in _Menorquí _if it's not with a foreigner. 

In Majorca, like in Minorca and the Pitiuses, people have a very beautiful accent, they sing a little more that talk, like Italians and people in Argentina, for example. We tend to find it charming. They speak quite fast as well, and they have some little words different -normal in different dialects... so they sometimes can find a suspicious constant wide smile or some strange face when talking with "a Catalan". It maybe something very brief, and it's nothing different as if a Spanish talks with a Mexican, or a northern Spanish with a southern one... But sometimes the reaction, when speaking Mallorquí, is to change into Spanish. 

Not always, but it happens. 
Please, people from "the peninsule"/"the continent", have the sensibility of guessing why a person of Majorca should talk you in Spanish and say something.


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## TraductoraPobleSec

chics said:


> In Minorca few people talk in _Menorquí _if it's not with a foreigner.


 
What do you mean, Chics? Again, I've seen time and again menorquins interact among themselves in Minorcan.


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## PABLO DE SOTO

It's a bit off topic but I'd like to say that I, as a Spanish speaker can understand Barcelona catalan pretty well, I'd say 90% ,but not so easily minorca Catalan, maybe because the Catalan I've learned and listened more often is the TV3 Catalan and not that regional variation.


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## PABLO DE SOTO

TraductoraPobleSec said:


> What do you mean, Chics? Again, I've seen time and again menorquins interact among themselves in Minorcan.


 

I think Chics did not mean what she wrote in this statement what's not clear to me too.
I think she means that minorcans always talk in Menorqui among them, and only use Spanish when they talk to strangers.


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## chics

Thanks, Pablo. Too many negations together...


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