# un sourire lavasse



## Novanas

Dear Friends, I'd like to ask about the meaning of the above expression, which is about as clear to me as dishwater.

The situation is this:  a French man and woman (who are not married) are checking into a hotel in Geneva, and the narrator (the Frenchman) says:

". . .l'homme de la réception a eu *un sourire lavasse* en me voyant tendre ma carte d'identité, tandis qu'elle attendait derrière moi, sans un mot ni un geste, monsieur et madame?. . ."

I'm not sure why the man at the reception should smile because the other man is handing him his identity card.  I suppose it's because he realizes that the couple are not married.  They are foreigners who've come to have a bit of fun.

At any rate, my dictionary defines "lavasse" as dishwater.  So I suppose "un sourire lavasse" might be a "dirty" or "lewd" smile, since dishwater is dirty.

On the other hand, another dictionary defines "lavasse" as "Boisson qui contient trop d'eau".  So perhaps "un sourire lavasse" would be a "weak" or "thin" smile.

It seems to me that the first option is the better one.  I don't know why the man would give a weak or thin smile.  But if anyone has any comments or suggestions, many thanks.


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## carog

I think it means "insipide, sans saveur, fade" so I would go with your second option.


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## philosophia

I understand the same as Carog : the man is merely going through the motion of welcoming clients.
I think « _sourire lavasse_ » = « _sourire tiédasse _» -> not genuine, maybe tired.


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## carog

Maybe "a lukewarm smile"?


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## Novanas

Yes, I think you're right. I suppose in this day and age hotel people are used to seeing unmarried people checking in, so they think nothing of it. I think "lukewarm" is a very good suggestion. Thanks to both of you for your replies.

[Upon further reflection, I think "tepid" might also be a good option here.]


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## williamc

Bonjour,

My dictionary suggests _a thin, watery smile!_


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## orlando09

maybe half-hearted? but I like lukewarm, tepid etc


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## Novanas

Thanks for the above suggestions.  I think there are lots of ways of expressing this.  Initially I wasn't sure what the French meant, but once that was explained, I could see that there were lots of possibilities.


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## Cath.S.

Would _a watered-down smile_ be understood? _Un sourire lavasse_ is not at all a common expression in French.


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## Bobbum

In the US one often hears _a half-assed grin_ in that context.
I may have my metaphors mixed: it may be _a shit-eating grin._


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## Bobbum

Disregard my previous post. I went off in a tangent. "A sheepish grin," is what I had in mind.


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## xiancee

"Weak smile" is an interesting option but I really like the "sheepish grin" by Bobbum!


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## Novanas

I think a "sheepish grin" is the one suggestion I've been given that I really can't agree with.  For me (and my dictionary confirms it) a sheepish grin is one you give when you're feeling a bit foolish or embarrassed.  And it's hard for me to see why the reception clerk would be feeling like that.  I think "lukewarm" is more in line with what I'm looking for.


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## philosophia

Maybe  "a perfunctory smile" as proposed in this thread for « _sourire de circonstance_ » could work too :
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=360814

Yet I agree with Cath S that  « _sourire lavasse_ » isn't common at all in French and all the above translations (including "perfunctory") are correct (though probably not "sheepish" for the reasons Seneca pointed out) but they don't keep the image. « _C'est de la lavasse_ ! » is what you say  about a coffee made with so much water that it's hardly worth the name of coffee. I don't know if it's possible to find a good equivalent.

[Anyway my theory is that Seneca's point is not to understand the expression -- let alone find a translation -- but to baffle us all.]


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## xiancee

Could "weakish smile " get close to what we're looking for?


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## Novanas

philosophia said:


> [Anyway my theory is that Seneca's point is not to understand the expression -- let alone find a translation -- but to baffle us all.]


 
If your theory were correct (which of course it isn't) then the only reply would be, "Misery loves company."


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## xiancee

I thought being baffled and going deeper into bafflement until no baffling was left was at the root of philosophical thinking  But I might be mistaken ...


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## philosophia

Seneca the Duck said:


> "Misery loves company."


Why "misery" , it's delightful to baffled ! (yet completely off topic)

What do you think of Xiancee's "weakish smile" ? The "ish" ending is pretty good to render the French « _asse _».

Edit : I've just seen Xiancee's post : you got my meaning. Would'nt life taste like « _lavasse _» if no baffling was left ? ;-)


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## xiancee

I ' m quite pleased with my -ish ending and if it were not off topic and a terrible pun I would say "il y n' a pas  des paire de "baffles" qui se perdent " dans la lavasse ...


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## Novanas

I believe I'll leave the philosophizing and word-play to you two.  I don't mind being baffled on occasion.  I just wish that such times could be balanced out by a bit of clarity.

As for Xiancee's "weakish", that is fine.  I myself tend to avoid these "-ish" endings, but that's just my personal taste.

I still believe I'd go with "lukewarm", mainly to contrast a "lukewarm smile" with a "warm smile", which is of course what you give someone when you're truly glad to see them.  But all the suggestions made on this thread (with perhaps one exception) have been good.


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## Cath.S.

_A piss-weak smile_? 
Not very elegant a suggestion, for sure, but doesn't it keep the original image?


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## Novanas

I don't think I've ever heard this term before, but you might get by with it--in certain contexts.  Though we have to remember that French uses certain words (I think particularly of "pisser", "cul", "pet" and "con") more frequently than English.  It absolutely astonishes me at times in what sort of context French will use these words.  But such words can be very offensive in English, depending on your company, of course.  I remember one time a man using the term "piss-poor" (which means "very, very poor") in my dad's presence, and my dad wasn't the least bit pleased.  Of course, there are many of us who are not offended by such words, so it just depends on who you're using the words with.


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## Cath.S.

I'm aware it is coarse language. Hence my . 

I've encounterd the phrase _piss-weak coffee_ (=lavasse) a couple of times, that's what inspired my suggestion.


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## franc 91

a fixed grin
an insincere smile


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## Cath.S.

Toujours dans le même registre, (et re-)
_a half-assed smile_ ?


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## Novanas

To be honest, in the context I have, I don't think any sort of vulgarity would suit.  So far at least I haven't met with a great deal of that in this book.  Unless "lavasse" itself is a bit vulgar?  But I don't have the impression that it is.


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## franc 91

No it just means half-hearted or insincere (it might be judgemental and somewhat cruel but certainly not vulgar)


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## xiancee

I get your point Seneca, you'd rather go for" luke something" rather than "something-ish"! "lukewarmish" is too much I guess...


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## Cath.S.

_Lavasse_ is not vulgar, no, merely colloquial. We also call weak coffee_ jus de chaussette_.

_Half-hearted _is not necessarily critical, while insincere may well express the meaning, but leaves out any kind of metaphor; the author of the sentence made a creative effort and the English translation ought to do the same - imho.

That doesn't mean I think highly of my own suggestions, though.


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## sankara

a "dull smile" ?


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## Bobbum

There's still the old standby _a wan smile.
_I know it means pale, but it says in my dictionary under 4. faint, feeble as in a _wan _smile.


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## Nicomon

Hello,

For the record... I googled "sourire lavasse". Indeed not very common. 

Would "diluted smile" make any sense? 

Or using Bobbum's last suggestion, how about a combination, as in this example from above search? 





> Gilbert Merrill thanked Miss Pomfrey with *a wan,* *diluted smile*.


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## xiancee

We have to compliment the author who coined this expression and was able to put our heads together for 33 posts! 
"Is this the "sourire lavasse " which launched 33 posts?" as the poet would say???
By the way what do you think of "mawkish smile"???? (insipid in taste says the dictionnary)


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## Novanas

Cath.S. said:


> We also call weak coffee_ jus de chaussette_.


 
This is good.  It reminds me of John Steinbeck's _Cannery Row_ and _Tortilla_ _Flats_, where he was describing the bums and the cheap, "rotgut" whiskey they drank.  The whiskey was "Old Tennessee", but the bums, because of its poor quality, called it "Old Tennis Shoes".

Now everyone has been very busily thinking hard while I was tucked up in my bed, sleeping the sleep of the just, and I appreciate your efforts on my behalf.

To Bobbum: I had thought of your suggestion, "a wan smile", and that's not bad, one to be considered.

To Nicomon: "A diluted smile" I think is also quite good and might work.  (Good to hear from you again.  It's been a while.)

To xiancee: I think the problem with "mawkish" is that its primary meaning is "falsely sentimental", as my dictionary gives it, and in context I think it would confuse the reader.  That's what he/she would immediately think of and would see no reason why the reception clerk should be mawkish.  (I recall Richard Nixon's farewell speech being described as self-pitying and mawkish.  It couldn't have happened to a better man.)

So, many thanks to all of you.  I think that Lukewarm is still the front runner in this horse race, but Perfunctory is going well along the rail and Diluted is coming up strongly on the outside.  But with the finishing line in sight, if anyone wants to make a move, now's the time.


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## mirifica

Bonjour, Seneca the Duck,

Plus j'y pense plus cette expression me paraît étrange, m^me dans caractère imagé. On parle de café lavasse par ex. Sin on veut s'entenir à la notion de manque de chaleur du sourire, pourquoi pas 'sourire de commande' ? C'est une suggestion.


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## Novanas

mirifica said:


> Bonjour, Seneca the Duck,
> 
> Plus j'y pense plus cette expression me paraît étrange, m^me dans caractère imagé. On parle de café lavasse par ex. Sin on veut s'entenir à la notion de manque de chaleur du sourire, pourquoi pas 'sourire de commande' ? C'est une suggestion.


 
Hello, mirifica!  This is an old thread, and I'd completely forgotten about it.  I have a very short memory.  I can't remember anything for more than about 2 weeks (except for all the girls who've dumped me.  You never forget that.).

Of course, I can't comment on what "sourire de commande" suggests to the French mind.  "A forced/affected smile" I think would perhaps fit the context here.  It depends on the situation.

I remember that a long time ago (and I remember this because it involves a woman) I went into a café and sat down.  The waitress came over to my table, at first with no particular expression on her face.  Then all of sudden she broke out into a big, bright, warm, radiant smile.  And I thought that she must really like me.

But after she had taken my order and left, I realized the truth of the matter: the poor girl, this was her first night on the job and she was terribly nervous.  At the last second she must have remembered that the manager had told her to smile.  So that's what she did.

Now this might qualify as a "forced/affected smile", but it certainly wasn't "lavasse".  However, you'd certainly prefer that sort of smile to the one the hotel clerk in my OP gave.

All the best, the Duck.


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## Pierre Simon

Good evening Seneca the Duck,

Can I join in?

How about the English expression 'milk-and-water', meaning 'insipid', 'feeble' or 'wishy-washy'. It's slightly out of fashion perhaps, but none the worse for that...


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## Bobbum

In the US we say milktoast. There was a cartoon character year's ago _Casper Milktoast.
_I just googled it, and it was _Casper Milquetoast_, aka The Timid Soul.


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