# Persian: Somewhere, Anywhere, Wherever



## Qureshpor

Hi friends,

I am interested in finding out the exact equivalents of the following "place words" in the context given below. If there is more than one fit, please also privide the additional word/s. Any help will be greatly received.

Where are my glasses? *The place where *(i) I last remember seeing them is on my desk but my memory is so bad, they could be *anywhere *(ii). I must have put them down *somewhere *(iii) but now I can't find them *anywhere *(iv). I have searched for them *everywhere *(v) but they are *nowhere *(vi) to be found. *Wherever *(vii) they are, I can't see them. Maybe I've gone blind. Ah silly me, they are on top of my head!


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## Treaty

The translation is not smooth because I wanted to be as loyal to the English structure for the proper equivalents of the wh- words. 
عینک من کجاست؟ *جایی که* (1) آخرین بار یادم است که آن را دیدم روی میزم است اما حافظه ام خیلی ضعیف است. آن ممکن است *هرجا* (2) باشد. حتماً آن را *یک جا* / *جایی *(3) گذاشته ام اما الان نمی توانم آن را *هیچ جا* (4) پیدا کنم. *همه جا* (5) را برایش گشته ام ولی آن *هیچ جا* (6) پیدا نمی شود. *هر جا*/*کجا که *(7) هست، آن را نمی توانم ببینم.​


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## PersoLatin

Qureshpor said:


> Where are my glasses? *The place where *(i) I last remember seeing them is on my desk but my memory is so bad, they could be *anywhere *(ii). I must have put them down *somewhere *(iii) but now I can't find them *anywhere *(iv). I have searched for them *everywhere *(v) but they are *nowhere *(vi) to be found. *Wherever *(vii) they are, I can't see them.


This is colloquial and natural (formal forms in brackets):
عینکم کو/کجاست؟
آخرین *جایی که* یادمه دیدمش روی میزم بود اما حافظه م خیلی بد شده/ بده ----------------     (F  یادم است دیدم آنرا/حافظه ام بد است/بد شده است)
حتماً *یه جا*/*یک جایی* گذاشته مش    ----------------                             (Fگذاشته ام آنرا)
اما الان *هیج جا*/*جایی *نمیتونم پیداش کنم ----------------                  (F نمیتوانم پیدایش )
*همه جا *رو گشته م  ----------------                                      (F را گشته ام)
اما *هیچ جا* پیداش نیست     ----------------                           (F پیدایش)
*هر جا* *که* باشه من نمی بینمش/نمیتونم ببینمش ----------------   (F باشد/نمیتوانم/ببینم آنرا )


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## Qureshpor

Thank you @Treaty and @PersoLatin for your clear answers and perhaps not surprisingly, they are practically identical. I am grateful for this as this is what I had in my mind and your responses have given my understanding considerble support.

In i), is there a possibility to fit  آن جا که ? Apparently before جایی که type construction came into existence in the language, there was آن جا که format to express the same meaning.

In ii) is there a possibility of saying ھیچ جا because one does find ھیچ in affirmative sentences too.

For vii) can we have ھر جایی که as well?

I could have included "Here", "There" and "Where?" in my context but these are straight forward. One word I did fail to include is "Where" in the sense below.

*Where* there is smoke, there is fire. Could I please ask you for *all* the words which would fit this "where".


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## PersoLatin

Qureshpor said:


> *Where* there is smoke, there is fire.


I can think of four, if I have understood you correctly, these cover formal/colloquial to poetic registers (not written to that order).
‏جایی ‏که
‏هر ‏جا ‏که
‏آنجایی ‏که
هر آنجا که


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## Qureshpor

^ Thank you PersoLatin. Your reply came when I was editing/adding to my post. Could you please take a look at my post again.


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## PersoLatin

Qureshpor said:


> In i), is there a possibility to fit آن جا که ? Apparently before جایی که type construction came into existence in the language, there was آن جا که format to express the same meaning.


Yes.


Qureshpor said:


> In ii) is there a possibility of saying ھیچ جا because one does find ھیچ in affirmative sentences too.


If you mean in "they could be *anywhere" *then no.

But if someone says: کجا میروی/میری؟ you can reply ھیچ جا, meaning "I am not going any where" i.e. denying that 'going' was the intention of moving .
Or هیچ جا نمیتواند باشد "couldn't be anywhere", this doesn't mean "could be anywhere"



Qureshpor said:


> For vii) can we have ھر جایی که as well?


Yes.


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## Qureshpor

^ Thank you. This is certainly filling the little niggles one has when one is studying another language. To get into the psyche of a native speaker can not be over stressed.

What about....

For vii) can we have ھر جایی که as well?


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## PersoLatin

Qureshpor said:


> For vii) can we have ھر جایی که as well?


Yes, also see the edited post #7


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## Qureshpor

PersoLatin said:


> Yes.
> If you mean in "they could be *anywhere" *then no.
> 
> But if someone says: کجا میروی/میری؟ you can reply ھیچ جا, meaning "I am not going any where" i.e. denying that 'going' was the intention of moving .
> Or هیچ جا نمیتواند باشد "couldn't be anywhere", this doesn't mean "could be anywhere"


In your exampe...

کجا میروی؟ Where are you going?

ھیچ جا Nowhere.  This is really ھیچ جا نمیروم I am not going anywhere.

I don't have at the moment access to any good examples of ھیچ used without a negative verb to express "anywhere" but take a look at this example.

ای که ھرگز فراموشت نکنم 
ھیچت از ما یاد میاید؟

Here ھیچ is really short for ھیچ وقت meaning "ever" and not "never" because the verb is not negative.

Where does ھیچ کجا fit in the discussion relevant to this thread?


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## PersoLatin

Qureshpor said:


> ھیچ جا Nowhere. This is really ھیچ جا نمیروم I am not going anywhere.


Correct, that is the full meaning but ھیچ جا on its own is the correct reply, there's no need for نمیروم, of course in some contexts you will use it fully.


Qureshpor said:


> I don't have at the moment access to any good examples of ھیچ used without a negative verb to express "anywhere" but take a look at this example.
> 
> ای که ھرگز فراموشت نکنم
> ھیچت از ما یاد میاید؟
> 
> Here ھیچ is really short for ھیچ وقت meaning "ever" and not "never" because the verb is not negative.


ھیچ on its own is the correct interpretation here, you can rephrase ھیچت از ما یاد میاید؟ as هیچ ‏‏ازما یادت میاید with ھیچ meaning 'anything' rather than 'ever'.



Qureshpor said:


> I don't have at the moment access to any good examples of ھیچ used without a negative verb to express "anywhere" but take a look at this example.


I'd be interested to see an example as I can't say I have ever seen it used that way.

I edited something regarding ھیچ in post #7, about its use with time, people, places and things:
هیچ چیز - nothing
هیچ گاه/وقت- never
هیچ کس - no one
هیچ جا - no where

Equally with همه and هر


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## Qureshpor

PersoLatin said:


> Correct, that is the full meaning but ھیچ جا on its own is the correct reply, there's no need for نمیروم, of course in some contexts you will use it fully.
> ھیچ on its own is the correct interpretation here, you can rephrase ھیچت از ما یاد میاید؟ as هیچ ‏‏ازما یادت میاید with ھیچ meaning 'anything' rather than 'ever'.
> 
> I'd be interested to see an example as I can't say I have ever seen it used that way.
> 
> I edited something regarding ھیچ in post #7, about its use with time, people, places and things:
> هیچ چیز - nothing
> هیچ گاه/وقت- never
> هیچ کس - no one
> هیچ جا - no where
> 
> Equally with همه and هر


So, is this correct

ھر چیز - Everything
ھر چہ - Whatever

ھرگاہ/ھروقت - Everytime/Whenever

ھرکس - Everyone  
ھر کہ - Whoever

ھر جا - Everywhere/Wherever
ھر کجا - Wherever

And where does ھیچ کجا fit in all this?


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## PersoLatin

Qureshpor said:


> I don't have at the moment access to any good examples of ھیچ used without a negative verb to express "anywhere" but take a look at this example.


Thank you, I am sure you mean these:

هیچ چیز خوردی؟ did you eat *anything*?
هیچ کس میداند؟ does *anybody* know?
هیچ وقت فکر کرده‌ای؟ have you *ever* thought?
هیج جا میروی؟ do you go *anywhere*?

Also:
هیچ وقت به هیچکس اعتماد میکنی؟ do *ever* trust *anyone*?

هیچ جا از اینجا بهتر؟ is there *anywhere* better than here?



Qureshpor said:


> For vii) can we have ھر جایی که as well?


جایی and جا are not the same as I am sure you know:
*هر جا* میروم با من میاید - *everywhere* I go he comes with me
*هر جایی* میروم با من میاید - *anywhere *I go he comes with me
(both can come with که/that)

Also about جا and جایی and هیچ:
هیچ *جا* نمیرود she goes nowhere
هیچ *جایی* نمیرود she doesn’t go anywhere
These sentences have slightly different meanings despite the fact the English translations appear to be interchangeable.


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## PersoLatin

Qureshpor said:


> So, is this correct
> 
> ھر چیز - Everything
> ھر چہ - Whatever
> 
> ھرگاہ/ھروقت - Everytime/Whenever
> 
> ھرکس - Everyone
> ھر کہ - Whoever
> 
> ھر جا - Everywhere/Wherever
> ھر کجا - Wherever
> 
> And where does ھیچ کجا fit in all this?


Please see post #13 too.

ھر چیز  - Everything -  هر چیز اندازه دارد everything has a limit
ھر چیزی  - Anything - هر چیزی اندازه دارد Anything has a limit

ھرکس - Everyone -  هر کس که میتواند میرود everyone who can, goes
هر کسی - Anyone هر کسی که میتواند میرود anyone who can, goes

ھر جا - Everywhere/Wherever
ھر کجا - Wherever/Everywhere
هر ‏جا/‏کجا ‏میروند با هم هستند - wherever they go they are together (they go together everywhere)
هر جایی میروند با هم هستند - Anywhere they go they are together (they go together anywhere)

ھر که - Whoever/Everyone -  هر که میتواند میرود whoever/everyone who can goes


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## Qureshpor

Thank you PersoLatin for your detailed responses. I believe between us we have covered everything but if something relevant crops up, I shall return and ask. Thank you (and Treaty) once again.


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## PersoLatin

PersoLatin said:


> هر ‏جا/‏کجا ‏میروند با هم هستند - wherever they go they are together (they go together everywhere)
> هر جایی میروند با هم هستند - Anywhere they go they are together (they go together anywhere)


CORRECTION, the two lines in brackets are not accurate English translations:
They should have said:
they go together anywhere - باهم هر جا میروند
they go together everywhere - همه جا باهم میروند/ با هم همه جا میروند


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## Qureshpor

I suppose, the conclusion one can draw from all this is that these constructions do not have clear cut meanings but there is an overlap. Are the equivalent sentences in # 13 also wrong with ھر جا and ھر جایی?


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## PersoLatin

Qureshpor said:


> I suppose, the conclusion one can draw from all this is that these constructions do not have clear cut meanings but there is an overlap.


I don't follow, I have shown by examples the clear-cut differences, albeit subtle ones, maybe you can elaborate.


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## Qureshpor

^ What I mean is one Persian word/construction, e.g ھر جا in the right context could mean "Everywhere", "Anywhere" and "Wherever".


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## PersoLatin

Qureshpor said:


> ^ What I mean is one Persian word/construction, e.g ھر جا in the right context could mean "Everywhere", "Anywhere" and "Wherever".


"Everywhere" and "Wherever" but never "Anywhere", at least not without ی which makes it vague which 'any' is. Maybe you have an example in the right context that contradicts this?


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## Qureshpor

Yes, but one could say that there is hardly any difference between "Wherever" and "Anywhere" in the final scheme of things, but we will not argue over it.

Wherever he goes, I will pursue him to the ends of the Earth!
Anywhere he goes, I will pursue him to the ends of the Earth!


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## PersoLatin

Qureshpor said:


> Wherever he goes, I will pursue him to the ends of the Earth!
> Anywhere he goes, I will pursue him to the ends of the Earth!


Yes in subjunctive mood which is uncertain itself, wherever & anywhere work equally but in the past tense only ‘wherever’ works as certainty of the event is established:

"Wherever/everywhere he went, I pursued him"

Of course in the following sentence which has uncertainty, either/any/both can be used :
"Anywhere/wherever he went I would followed"

Of course people use whatever/anything also everything they like 😀


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## Qureshpor

PersoLatin said:


> I'd be interested to see an example as I can't say I have ever seen it used that way.



The second line is an example of use of ھیچ used when the verb is not negative.

کاشکی ھیچ کسی زو خبری می دھدی
تا از این واقعه خود ھیچ خبر دارد یار

انوری


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## PersoLatin

Qureshpor said:


> The second line is an example of use of ھیچ used when the verb is not negative.
> 
> کاشکی ھیچ کسی زو خبری می دھدی
> تا از این واقعه خود ھیچ خبر دارد یار


Thank you Qureshpor.

The second هیچ is being used in a question and not as it may appear, it is similar to the following:
Question از او هیچ خبری داری؟/do you have any news from her?
Reply: نه هیچ خبری ندارم /no I don’t have any news [from her]


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## Qureshpor

PersoLatin said:


> Thank you Qureshpor.
> 
> The second هیچ is being used in a question and not as it may appear, it is similar to the following:
> Question از او هیچ خبری داری؟/do you have any news from her?
> Reply: نه هیچ خبری ندارم /no I don’t have any news [from her]


I am not sure I am in agreement with you. Neither the first line nor the second is a question. The second line, is a response to the hypothetical, irrealis wish, would translate something like:

کاشکی ھیچ کسی زو خبری می دھدی
تا از این واقعه خود ھیچ خبر دارد یار

So that from this incident my beloved himself/herself would have some news.


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## Qureshpor

Qureshpor said:


> I am not sure I am in agreement with you. Neither the first line nor the second is a question. The second line, is a response to the hypothetical, irrealis wish, would translate something like:
> 
> کاشکی ھیچ کسی زو خبری می دھدی
> تا از این واقعه خود ھیچ خبر دارد یار
> 
> So that from this incident my beloved himself/herself would have some news.


باز نشان حرارتم ز آبِ دو دیده و ببین
نبض مرا که می‌دهد هیچ ز زندگی نشان
حافظ


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## PersoLatin

Qureshpor said:


> باز نشان حرارتم ز آبِ دو دیده و ببین
> نبض مرا که می‌دهد هیچ ز زندگی نشان
> حافظ


Bring down my temperature with your tears and see that my pulse shows *no* sign of life.

I have lost track of what we are discussing here as I can’t remember saying such constructions don’t exist, these exist in modern Persian and are commonly used


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## Qureshpor

PersoLatin said:


> Bring down my temperature with your tears and see that my pulse shows *no* sign of life.
> 
> I have lost track of what we are discussing here as I can’t remember saying such constructions don’t exist, these exist in modern Persian and are commonly used


 Your second part first and it's a fair comment.

In post 4, I asked, "ii) is there a possibility of saying ھیچ جا *because one does find ھیچ in affirmative sentences too*."  You responded with a "no" in post 7. So, I said I'll try to find such examples.

Your first part.

باز نشان حرارتم ز آبِ دو دیده و ببین
نبض مرا که می‌دهد *هیچ* ز زندگی نشان

Bring down my temperature with water from (my) two eyes
And (then) check my pulse which will give *some *sign of life!

However we may interpret this ھیچ, there is no explicit negative with the verb.


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## PersoLatin

Qureshpor said:


> باز نشان حرارتم ز آبِ دو دیده و ببین
> نبض مرا که می‌دهد *هیچ* ز زندگی نشان
> 
> Bring down my temperature with water from (my) two eyes
> And (then) check my pulse which will give *some *sign of life


There’s only one way to interpret هیچ and I’m afraid you haven’t got it right, and until we get this right we can’t talk about the rest.


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## mannoushka

Qureshpor said:


> And (then) check my pulse which will give *some *sign of life!
> 
> However we may interpret this ھیچ, there is no explicit negative with the verb.


I have to interpret the هیچ as an adverb in a question: is there any trace of life? 
Checking the pulse is a pretext, obviously. And the ploy is repeated elsewhere in the poem: part your lips, I think he says in one of the lines, ostensibly in prayer over me. All played tongue in cheek, you see.


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## Qureshpor

mannoushka said:


> I have to interpret the هیچ as an adverb in a question: is there any trace of life?
> Checking the pulse is a pretext, obviously. And the ploy is repeated elsewhere in the poem: part your lips, I think he says in one of the lines, ostensibly in prayer over me. All played tongue in cheek, you see.


Yes, this is not much different from my interpretation. 

And (then) check my pulse if it will give any sign of life. 

Some sign of life/Any sign of life are pretty much the same.


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## mannoushka

Exactly. The playful malingering that is going on is a distant reminder of some of the lines of the sonnet in Romeo and Juliet: “And palm to palm is holy palmers’ kiss”, etc.

So هیچ in this particular sense is as a rule an adverb expressive of negation, question, uncertainty, or wishful thinking, as in the quoted verse by Anvari. In ordinary speech one won’t know how to insert a هیچ in a purely affirmative sentence; it just won’t stick.


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## PersoLatin

Qureshpor said:


> Some sign of life/Any sign of life are pretty much the same.


If that holds water in English then it also would in Persian.

چیزی میدانی؟ do you know anything?
هیچی میدانی؟ do you know anything at at/really ?
هیچ دانی/میدانی؟  do you know at all?
من از این هیچ دانم (not modern Persian) I know nothing of this/ I don’t know any of this (but never *some*)

BUT: کمی میدانم I know *some*

I am providing most of the above for anyone who might be confused by the posts above.


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## mannoushka

I’m confused alright. This thread seems to me to be maturing very slowly like a good wine. Give it a few years and it will start to have medicinal properties.😉
Seriously, though, is it possible, do you think, to develop a formula for all these variations on a single theme? Something like, reserve هیچ کجا and its sister هیچ جا for non-affirmative sentences, then throw in the rest as wildcards, to be used anywhere, anyhow? Or has there already been a consensus on that one way or another and we are now only dealing with هیچ on its own? I truly am lost as you can see.


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## PersoLatin

Qureshpor said:


> کاشکی ھیچ کسی زو خبری می دھدی
> تا از این واقعه خود ھیچ خبر دارد یار
> 
> So that from this incident my beloved himself/herself would have some news.


Here's my attempt:

هیچ دانی که سر صحبت ما دارد یار
سر پیوند چو من باز فرود آرد یار

*کاشکی هیچ‌کسی زو خبری می‌دهدی
تا از این واقعه خود هیچ خبر دارد یار*

I wish people  wouldn't (no one would) keep bringing news from her
because she herself has no idea (news) of this fact/incident

and "incident" is a refers to goings-on in the top two lines.


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## Qureshpor

PersoLatin said:


> Here's my attempt:
> 
> هیچ دانی که سر صحبت ما دارد یار
> سر پیوند چو من باز فرود آرد یار
> 
> *کاشکی هیچ‌کسی زو خبری می‌دهدی
> تا از این واقعه خود هیچ خبر دارد یار*
> 
> I wish people  wouldn't (no one would) keep bringing news from her
> because she herself has no idea (news) of this fact/incident
> 
> and "incident" is a refers to goings-on in the top two lines.


PersoLatin, I am afraid your understanding of the couplet in question is poles apart from mine. Here I am not suggesting that I have a complete understanding but what I am saying is that in the opening line and the first line of the second couplet, there is no negative meaning of هیچ.

Would that at least someone would bring some sort of news from him/her
So that I can deduce from this if my beloved him/herself has any news of this

The poets wants to know something about his beloved from someone/anyone at all. Once he receives this information, he'll be able to see if his beloved is aware of this news or not ( i.e. s/he can verify or refute this piece of information).

A Ghazal, more often than not, has couplets that are not connected with each other but have an independent unity of their own.


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## PersoLatin

Qureshpor said:


> but what I am saying is that in the opening line and the first line of the second couplet, there is no negative meaning of هیچ.


I do understand what you have been saying, believe me. The issue is I’ve never seen هیچ being used to mean ‘some’, although in your interpretation, it may fit, even if that is what انوری had in mind, one flower & spring comes to mind.

in modern Persian هیچ is almost always accompanied by a negative verb but in old text you do see it being used in affirmative sentences, but in both case هیچ will mean nothing, none or it changes the affirmative to negative.


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## PersoLatin

Qureshpor said:


> A Ghazal, more often than not, has couplets that are not connected with each other but have an independent unity of their own.


But I don’t see that in this case, he consistently complains about the lover/companion in almost every line. انوری is famous for writing complicated poetry and this particular couplet is a good example of that, maybe we should consider him as an exception rather than the rule.


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## Qureshpor

PersoLatin said:


> But I don’t see that in this case, he consistently complains about the lover/companion in almost every line. انوری is famous for writing complicated poetry and this particular couplet is a good example of that, maybe we should consider him as an exception rather than the rule.


At least you have one vote in your favour from @taraa whereas I have none! Anwari is no more a difficult poet to interpret than the next one amongst hundreds if not thousands of Persian poets. As far as your reference to "flower" and "spring" is concerned, perhaps you had the adage, "One swallow does n't a spring make" in mind. But if you venture out (especially now with the lockdown) in the "gulistaan" or "bostaan" of Persian literature, both verse and prose, from Rudaki, all the way down to Jami and many others after him, you will come across many a "bulbul" singing ھیچ، ھیچ (hech, hech) in a very soothing, sweet, melodious AND positive tone! You just have to be in the right place at the right time!

گر ھیچ سخن گویم با تو ز شکر خوشتر
صد کینه به دل گیری صد اشک فرو باری

منوچهری

از لطف بجایی ست که گر هیچ خرد را
پرسند که جان چیست خردگوید جان اوست

سنایی


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## PersoLatin

Qureshpor said:


> As far as your reference to "flower" and "spring" is concerned, perhaps you had the adage, "One swallow does n't a spring make"


In essence yes, but I was referring to its Persian equivalent which I was sure you are familiar with با یک گل بهار نمیشود


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## PersoLatin

Qureshpor said:


> Anwari is no more a difficult poet to interpret than the next one amongst hundreds if not thousands of Persian poets.


please see this excerpt from Wikipedia:

“Anvari's poems were collected in a Deewan, and contains panegyrics, eulogies, satire, and others. His elegy "Tears of Khorasan", translated into English in 1789, is considered to be one of the most beautiful poems in Persian literature. The Cambridge History of Iran calls Anvari "one of the greatest figures in Persian literature". *Despite their beauty, his poems often required much help with interpretation, as they were often complex and difficult to understand.*”


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## PersoLatin

Qureshpor said:


> ou will come across many a "bulbul" singing ھیچ، ھیچ (hech, hech) in a very soothing, sweet, melodious AND positive tone! You just have to be in the right place at the right time!
> 
> گر ھیچ سخن گویم با تو ز شکر خوشتر
> صد کینه به دل گیری صد اشک فرو باری
> 
> منوچهری
> 
> از لطف بجایی ست که گر هیچ خرد را
> پرسند که جان چیست خردگوید جان اوست
> 
> سنایی


Quershpor sir, I am very confused about my misdeed/mistake that has led to this. Your examples show clearly the correct use of ھیچ and I agree with them so I don't know what these prove or the point.

ھیچ is negating the verb like it always does:

گر ھیچ سخن گویم با تو ز شکر خوشتر
صد کینه به دل گیری صد اشک فرو باری
if I utter no words to you [who is] sweeter than sugar (if I don't utter any words)
you'll cry and spite me 100 times

I am afraid I can't find the one from سنایی anywhere as he has used that combination of words in scores of places, I can however see ھیچ is performing its usual function, could you point me to the source please?


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## Qureshpor

PersoLatin said:


> Quershpor sir, I am very confused about my misdeed/mistake that has led to this. Your examples show clearly the correct use of ھیچ and I agree with them so I don't know what these prove or the point.
> 
> ھیچ is negating the verb like it always does:
> 
> گر ھیچ سخن گویم با تو ز شکر خوشتر
> صد کینه به دل گیری صد اشک فرو باری
> if I utter no words to you [who is] sweeter than sugar (if I don't utter any words)
> you'll cry and spite me 100 times
> 
> I am afraid I can't find the one from سنایی anywhere as he has used that combination of words in scores of places, I can however see ھیچ is performing its usual function, could you point me to the source please?


I think we'll have to leave this matter here with an agreement that we disagree.   Until someone more knowledgeable than both of us intervenes and judicates, we are not going to come to a consensus.

گر *ھیچ سخن* گویم با تو ز شکر خوشتر
صد کینه به دل گیری صد اشک فرو باری

Even if I utter *some words* to you that are sweeter than sugar
You will conceive hatred in your heart and shed a hundred tears

If you search for ھیچ in Dehkhoda, all will be revealed about ھیچ and you will also find the سنائی shi3r.


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## PersoLatin

Qureshpor said:


> Until someone more knowledgeable than both of us intervenes and judicates, we are not going to come to a consensus.


Fair enough, but whoever they are, they must have this very specific knowledge which seems to be missing in majority of us including our teachers, but I am happy to learn.

Just to make it clear, ھیچ in your view means 'some' sometimes depending on context or something else as yet unknown,
and so گر *ھیچ سخن* گویم با تو ز شکر خوشتر  is equivalent to گر *سخنی *گویم با تو ز شکر خوشتر is that right?


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## PersoLatin

Qureshpor said:


> If you search for ھیچ in Dehkhoda, all will be revealed about ھیچ and you will also find the سنائی shi3r.


Since you mentioned Dehkhoda, here's what it says about that هیچ, which is اندکی/کمی, so almost nothing a trace or "a little", ok I see and you argue "a little" is equivalent to "some" in English, I would say "anything" is more fitting, a key thing you will notice is that this هیچ  almost always is accompanied with گر/اگر.

|| ذره ای . کمترین مقداری . اندکی . کمی . یک ذره . کنایه از اندک و قلیل و کم . (برهان ) (آنندراج ) :
وگر هیچ خوی بد آرد پدید
بسان پدر سرْش باید برید.
فردوسی .

*گر هیچ سخن گویم با تو ز شکر خوشتر
صد کینه به دل گیری صد اشک فروباری . ۞
منوچهری .*

I will look out for use of that construct ( ......اگر.......هیچ..... ) in modern Persian.


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