# Persian: خودکار



## mominh9900

An Iranian told me that قلم is not the Persian word for "pen". He said that khodkaar is used instead. The strange thing is that my dictionary only gives one meaning for this word: automatic.


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## Sheikh_14

Xud-kaar in Urdu at least most certainly means automatic let's see where Perso-phones can lead you.
Xud-Kaar shouldn't stand for a pen for it means something that works on its own. A pen most certainly does no such thing!


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## curious boy

خودکار has both meanings. one means pen and the other means automatic.


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## mominh9900

Interesting. When and why did you Iranians stop using qalam, which was the only word for "pen" for centuries?


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## truce

"قلم" is a general name for all stationeries for writing.
خودکار >>> khodkaar >>> pen
مداد >>> medaad >>> pencil
خودنویس >>> khodnevees >>> fountain pen
ماژیک >>> majheek >>> marker


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## truce

For more infomation also check:
Persian: چھار قلم دادم


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## fdb

خدكار “pen” is a modern coinage. The idea is that a fountain pen refills the nib automatically ("own work") so it does not need to be replenished in an ink pot.

I think it is a calque on Russian авторучка, “auto-pen”.


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## PersoLatin

fdb said:


> خدكار "pen" is a modern coinage. The idea is that a fountain pen refills the nib automatically ("own work") so it does not need to be replenished in an ink pot.


I thought خودکار was coined for biro pens (when they were introduced) as they didn't need any maintenance.


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## fdb

You could very well be right.


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## PersoLatin

truce said:


> "قلم" is a general name for all stationeries for writing.


In my day, at school (in Iran), we used to use, what we called قلم, made from cane, for calligraphy lessons twice a month, we were supposed to cut & shape the tip with a sharp knife (not easy) and write some line of poetry with it, usually on thick white cards.


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## fdb

PersoLatin said:


> In my day, at school (in Iran), we used to use, what we called قلم, made from cane, for calligraphy lessons twice a month, we were supposed to cut & shape the tip with a sharp knife (not easy) and write some line of poetry with it, usually on thick white cards.




The Arabic word _qalam_ is an old borrowing from Greek κάλαμος “reed” and designates a traditional reed stylus.


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## Sheikh_14

A قلم qalam (fr. qalm, 'paring,' inf. n. of قلم; cf. Gr. κάλαμος; Lat. calamus, and culmus; S. कलम), s.m. & f. A reed; reed-pen, pen; a pencil; a painter's brush;—an engraving tool;—a mode of writing, character, handwriting. Platts affirms your view word for word and that is how qalam has come into use in Persian an Urdu. Perhaps xud-kaar was another means of nativising Persian synonyms away from qalam. In any case this discussion was most enlightening. Does anybody know how recent it's coinage may be?


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## marrish

mominh9900 said:


> Interesting. When and why did you Iranians stop using qalam, which was the only word for "pen" for centuries?


Because for centuries, it has been a reed pen or a feather pen and with the recent automatisation (keeping the length of those centuries where the word qalam or Ghalam ruled supreme as it was the only mainstream writing tool, with ink etc) there had to be a new word for a new thing ,  a word able to make a clear distinction between the past and those days.


PersoLatin said:


> In my day, at school (in Iran), we used to use, what we called قلم, made from cane, for calligraphy lessons twice a month, we were supposed to cut & shape the tip with a sharp knife (not easy) and write some line of poetry with it, usually on thick white cards.


Yes, that is what ghalam actually stands for.
A pen in English today is not equivalent to ghalam.


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## PersoLatin

Sheikh_14 said:


> Does anybody know how recent it's coinage may be?


I would say post 1940's, since Bíró filed a British patent for the ballpoint pen, in 1938.



Sheikh_14 said:


> Perhaps xud-kaar was another means of nativising Persian synonyms away from qalam.


The coining of xodnevis - خودنویس (fountain pen), predates xodkár - خودکار, but we can't carry on using قلم - qalam for every type of writing device. However خودنویس and خودکار are not good choices at all, a خودنویس doesn't 'write' by itself and while خودکار may describe 'work' by itself, it says nothing about writing. Hindsight may be a good thing but in my view, no insight was at play when خودکار was coined. خودرو (car/vehicle) is another in this series. If you compare خود خواه with any of the aforementioned, you will see how off-the-mark they are.


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## mominh9900

PersoLatin said:


> I would say post 1940's, since Bíró filed a British patent for the ballpoint pen, in 1938.
> 
> The coining of xodnevis - خودنویس (fountain pen), predates xodkár - خودکار, but we can't carry on using قلم - qalam for every type of writing device. However خودنویس and خودکار are not good choices at all, a خودنویس doesn't 'write' by itself and while خودکار may describe 'work' by itself, it says nothing about writing. Hindsight may be a good thing but in my view, no insight was at play when خودکار was coined. خودرو (car/vehicle) is another in this series. If you compare خود خواه with any of the aforementioned, you will see how off-the-mark they are.



Why? What does khod-khaah mean?


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## curious boy

mominh9900 said:


> Why? What does khod-khaah mean?


It means selfish.


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## mominh9900

Kind of like the Urdu word for selfish, خودغرض.


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## PersoLatin

mominh9900 said:


> Kind of like the Urdu word for selfish, خودغرض.


I've always known the Arabic غرض to mean purpose, intention, so the sense of selfishness of خودغرض comes from self intention/intending/tending, is that right?


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