# US military pamphlets in Iraq for Iraqi people



## MarcB

In a thread for translation this was posted http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=120169&highlight=kurdish
What are your comments, about the photos and the written message?


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## cuchuflete

MarcB-
In the interest of a more interesting and useful conversation, please tell us if you know these materials to be the product of
the US military, or if that is just a repetition of a comment made elsewhere.

Thanks,
Cuchuflete


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## cuchuflete

Oh, another thing.  Given that these materials are written in Kurdish, are you certain that they were for Iraqi people?  Many Kurds do not consider themselves to be Iraqui.


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## MarcB

According to forero Josh they are, see his post. I have no further info.


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## MarcB

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Oh, another thing. Given that these materials are written in Kurdish, are you certain that they were for Iraqi people? Many Kurds do not consider themselves to be Iraqui.


 
I guess you mean is the dream of an independent Kurdistan with a coalition of all of Kurdistan not only Iraqi Kurds, still alive? I am not sure if that matters here. From what I gather these pamphlets are geared toward Iraqi Kurdistan not the others.


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## cuchuflete

I read his post. The translation from a Kurdish speaking forero made no mention of any credit line attributing the materials to the US military. They may very well have been prepared and/or distributed by the US military, but for now, that is fourth-hand information...highly speculative.

According to an unknown friend of Josh, quoted by MarcB...this material is from the US military. That's what we "know". It looks like a possibility, but we do not know if it is a fact. Hence, your thread title is a little bit assertive, it seems.


Edit: Thanks MarcB, for the change in the thread title.  (Addition of "alleged")


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## cuchuflete

MarcB said:
			
		

> I guess you mean is the dream of an independent Kurdistan with a coalition of all of Kurdistan not only Iraqi Kurds, still alive? I am not sure if that matters here. From what I gather these pamphlets are geared toward Iraqi Kurdistan not the others.



Whether or not a Greater independent Kurdistan ever comes to be was not my point.  The Kurdish population in northern Iraq manages its own affairs with near total independence from the quasi-government in Bagdad, and from what I've read, some large portion of the Kurdish population does not consider itself Iraqi.

In any event, the thread title implies that the materials cited are for the Iraqi people, broadly defined.  If that were so, they would likely be either in Arabic language, or there would be equivalent Arabic language pamphlets.


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## cuchuflete

Now, to your questions:
The photos: similar but less bloody than what is shown on the internet daily, and (I am assuming. I don't watch TV) what is likely to be on TV news programs.  

The text:  Fairly standard fare for any government, police or military authority to put out in times of combat.  Given the amount of terrorism/insurgency...call the bombings and murders by whatever name you like, they are still bombings and murders, with lots of civilian casualties...it is neither surprising nor unusual in any way for such authorities to appeal to a civilian population for collaboration.

Like any such pieces, there are desparaging remarks about the 'enemy'.  Again, nothing out of the ordinary in a place where hostilities against a government and civilians are taking place.  

I would be more surprised by the absence of this kind of material.

What do you think about it?


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## cherine

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> I read his post. The translation from a Kurdish speaking forero made no mention of any credit line attributing the materials to the US military. They may very well have been prepared and/or distributed by the US military, but for now, that is fourth-hand information...highly speculative.
> 
> According to an unknown friend of Josh, quoted by MarcB...this material is from the US military. That's what we "know". It looks like a possibility, but we do not know if it is a fact. Hence, your thread title is a little bit assertive, it seems.
> Edit: Thanks MarcB, for the change in the thread title. (Addition of "alleged")


 
According to this thread, Josh's friend was IN the army, so we know that they're not alleged


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## cherine

Comparing the Kurdish pamphlets to the Arabic one, it's obvious they're very different : Arabic pamphlets are nothing but mere slogans about unity and harmony between all Iraqis, about loving Iraq....
While the Kurdish ones are more focussing on how "terrorists" are jeopardizing peace and harming the people.... and calling people to cooperate with the "authorities" to stop those terrorists


> Report on suspicious or guilty people to the police and coalition forces coordination office. Your information secures your community and you might get an award.


Now how would you know that a person is guilty ?! (suspicious is a relative thing, isn't it? so it's ok and understandable if you have suspicions. But guilty ? ain't a person found guilty AFTER trial ?)
And there are *rewards* guys. Ain't that beautiful ?

Now there's an inevitable question : *why are the Arabic flyers different from the Kurdish ones ?*
Does this mean that only Kurdish Iraqis are victims of terrorism, while Arabic speaking Iraqis are not ?
Does this mean that Arabic speaking Iraqis are more queen to cooperate with terrorists, while Kurdish Iraqis prefer cooperating with the authorities ?
Does anyone have a valid/logic/acceptable explanation ?

Now here's a reminder of Marc's question : 


> What are your comments, about the photos and the written message[s]?


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## maxiogee

cherine said:
			
		

> Now how would you know that a person is guilty ?!


maybe because you have witnessed them doing something illegal?




			
				cherine said:
			
		

> ain't a person found guilty AFTER trial ?)


No, they are proven to be guilty. They do not become guilty by virtue of a trial having occurred.




			
				cherine said:
			
		

> And there are *rewards* guys. Ain't that beautiful ?


Name one "first world" country which doesn't regularly offer rewards for information leading to the arrest and successful prosecution of guilty people.


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## cherine

Hi Max, thank you for your comments. Allow me to reply :


			
				maxiogee said:
			
		

> maybe because you have witnessed them doing something illegal?


This is true. But the problem is that many people -and I'm not only speaking of Iraq- got, and still get, arrested over suspicions when they are in fact innocent.
The uglier thing, is that some people report their neighbors or ennemies to get rid of them or to benefit from the reward. The consequence is more injustice. You know of course about the "interrogation methods" used in Iraqi jails, it's awful to think of people getting humiliated and tortured because a greedy/mean/evil.... person had the sad idea of reporting them on unjustified basis or out for his/her own good.



> No, they are proven to be guilty. They do not become guilty by virtue of a trial having occurred.


Isn't that the meaning of "found guilty" ? If not, I'm sorry for the misuse of words. (My English is not as good as I wish  )



> Name one "first world" country which doesn't regularly offer rewards for information leading to the arrest and successful prosecution of guilty people.


If this method works fine in the "first world"; it does desasters in the "third" one. We, in Egypt, suffered from such "snitch-based-arrests" (I don't know how else to express this too, sorry  ) many people suffered in prisons for many years because of that during a certain period of our country when it was sort of regular thing to report your neighbor or your colleague as a spy/communist/"ennemy of the state"...
Speaking of "communists", remember McCarthy (that's the name, right?) in U.S.


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## maxiogee

A) Your English is fine, don't worry about it.

B) Yes, people report their neighbours - but they don't need encouragement from an 'occupying army' to do that. This happens in most countries when there is civil strife of some sort, people take the opportunity to settle old grievances. It also happens to a much, much lesser extent in 'peaceful' societies, but it still happens. Ask any policeman anywhere. That is why so many countries have laws against wasting police time. We humans are a cantankerous lot who harbour grudges for years!

Yes, you're right about being proven guilty being the same as being found guilty, but my point was that it is not the trial which creates the guilt. They are guilty before hand, but are presumed to be innocent - by people who do not know any of the facts. Witnesses can *know for a certainty* that someone is guilty, and that was what your question was about.


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## Residente Calle 13

Cherine, this is how the terms *prove guilty* and *found guilty* are used in the US legal system.

The prosecution or the plaintiff tries to _*prove *_that someone is guilty or liable. At the end of the trial, unless there is a mistrial or the case is settled, the court _*finds *_the defendent guilty or not guilty (in civil cases the term is _liable_). The court doesn't have to prove anything. It just makes a decision or a _*finding*_.

So it depends on how you look at it. You might, as an attorney, say you can *prove *someone is guilty or not guilty but the court *finds *you guilty or not guilty.


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## cuchuflete

Back to whether something is found, assumed, presumed, or proved to be real or alleged:

Cherine cites another thread as "proof" that certain items are
blue, or large, or military issue.  Why?  Because someone else said so.  Well, I looked at the thread, and here is what it says:



> Here are three bumper stickers that my friend in the army who was in Iraq sent me.


Please read that slowly and carefully. Now consider whether or not we have proof of anything associating the bumper stickers to a source--any source.
Cherine, who seems decent and intelligent and credible to me, quotes Josh, who seems decent and intelligent and credible to me. Josh says--doesn't attempt to prove, but says--that he has a friend who allegedly (alleged by Josh) was in the military, the army, and presumably the US army, and was in Iraq. So far this seems highly plausible, if not conclusive. As written, the alleged friend may have been in the Italian Army or no army at all while he was, allegedly, in Iraq.  The statement in front of us now tells us that (1) he was in Iraq, and (2) that he is [present tense] in the army.

The friend of the forero, who was cited by another forero, is said to have obtained some bumper stickers in Iraq. Text of the stickers is provided.

There was no mention in the post cited of the source of the bumper stickers. Josh's statement doesn't even assert that the stickers are of Iraqi origin, only that they were provided to him by someone who was in Iraq.

So what can we reasonably conclude from all of this?  Well, it
wouldn't surprise me even a little if the stickers were from Iraq. Nor would I blink at the thought of the stickers having been written, printed, and distributed by some authority in Iraq. It may have been the Iraqi government, or the US military, or some other agent of the US government. All of those suppositions pass a 'common sense' test.

But, we have no proof of anything.  We have an allegation.

A=Cherine
B=Josh
C=Unnamed friend of B

A says that B says that C sent something to B.
B says that C was in Iraq, and that C is in 'the army'. 

From here, some of us have concluded that the something was created by the US military, even though this has not been asserted. On the basis of these unproved assumptions, doubtless someone will draw further conclusions.

They may, by chance, turn out to be correct.


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## Outsider

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> The photos: similar but less bloody than what is shown on the internet daily, and (I am assuming. I don't watch TV) what is likely to be on TV news programs.


As far as I have seen, TV news very rarely show wounded or dead Iraqis.


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## cuchuflete

As an aside to an aside, Al-Jazeera does show lots of gore, burned bodies from terrorist bombings, so I imagine Iraqi people may have seen such before these pamphlets were published, either on local TV broadcasts or by walking outside their homes.


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## Josh_

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Back to whether something is found, assumed, presumed, or proved to be real or alleged:
> 
> Cherine cites another thread as "proof" that certain items are
> blue, or large, or military issue.  Why?  Because someone else said so.  Well, I looked at the thread, and here is what it says:
> 
> 
> Please read that slowly and carefully. Now consider whether or not we have proof of anything associating the bumper stickers to a source--any source.
> Cherine, who seems decent and intelligent and credible to me, quotes Josh, who seems decent and intelligent and credible to me. Josh says--doesn't attempt to prove, but says--that he has a friend who allegedly (alleged by Josh) was in the military, the army, and presumably the US army, and was in Iraq. So far this seems highly plausible, if not conclusive. As written, the alleged friend may have been in the Italian Army or no army at all while he was, allegedly, in Iraq. The statement in front of us now tells us that (1) he was in Iraq, and (2) that he is [present tense] in the army.
> 
> The friend of the forero, who was cited by another forero, is said to have obtained some bumper stickers in Iraq. Text of the stickers is provided.
> 
> There was no mention in the post cited of the source of the bumper stickers. Josh's statement doesn't even assert that the stickers are of Iraqi origin, only that they were provided to him by someone who was in Iraq.
> 
> So what can we reasonably conclude from all of this?  Well, it
> wouldn't surprise me even a little if the stickers were from Iraq. Nor would I blink at the thought of the stickers having been written, printed, and distributed by some authority in Iraq. It may have been the Iraqi government, or the US military, or some other agent of the US government. All of those suppositions pass a 'common sense' test.
> 
> But, we have no proof of anything.  We have an allegation.
> 
> A=Cherine
> B=Josh
> C=Unnamed friend of B
> 
> A says that B says that C sent something to B.
> B says that C was in Iraq, and that C is in 'the army'.
> 
> From here, some of us have concluded that the something was created by the US military, even though this has not been asserted. On the basis of these unproved assumptions, doubtless someone will draw further conclusions.
> 
> They may, by chance, turn out to be correct.


Well, my main objective in posting these images was to get a translation. A secondary objective was for informational purposes showing one of the things that the US Military is doing in Iraq. Further, it is policy in this forum to include context so readers can get a basic understanding of what is going on and what is wanted by the poster. As such, I chose brief language, which, by the nature of this thread, was ambiguous. I did not think I that further information would be required. 

Before I start I should say I have no reason to lie, and neither does my friend (not that anyone was accusing me of lieing). I know for sure he was in Iraq and I'm sure that he got the flyers there because he said so, and I believe him. Why would he concoct a fabrication just for me?

So, to clear things up a friend of mine named Robert joined the army some years ago. He was sent to Iraq in January of 2005 and returned to the US in January of 2006. I live in Michigan and he lives in Wyoming. When I spoke to him on the phone he told me of some of his experiences in Iraq and told me that he got some flyers and stickers, while he was in Iraq, that the US Military (including himself) had been handing out to the Iraqi people. He knows that I know Arabic and thought that I would be interested so he told me he would send them to me. He does not know Arabic or Kurdish and was curious as well to know what they said. 

Whether they were printed in the US or Iraq by the US military or Iraqis I do not know but I really think it is immaterial because it is obvious from the text that they targeted to the Iraqi people and from the US military regardless of origin. Since there is a large Kurdish speaking population in Iraq some of the flyers were done in Kurdish. I imagine there are Arabic language counterparts that Robert did not get for whatever reason.

If there are any other issues I can clear up, please feel free to ask.

--------------
To answer Mark's initial question:
I especially thought the one with the Grim Reaper was interesting as I have always viewed that image as an American (or at least Western) invention. Further, it is a symbol used in Christianity and as such I doubt if the same meaning Americans attach to it would be apparent to Iraqis/Kurds. But they might understand that it is meant to scare anyway as they would see a hooded individual with a scary face holding a scythe. This tells me that the idea was thought by an American (or Westerner) unfamiliar with Iraqi/Kurdish custums and culture.


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## cherine

Josh Adkins said:
			
		

> ... This tells me that the idea was thought by an American (or Westerner) unfamiliar with Iraqi/Kurdish custums and culture.


The language itself (and I'm talking about the one I understood: Arabic) poor as it is, shows it's a translation (a bad one) of something created by a non-native.
I think the same goes for the Kurdish ones too, specially that -as Tisia said- 





> _It is difficult to read flier 1, Back Side._ _It seems it is written by someone who doesn’t speak Kurdish well._


So they're nothing but propaganda, of the poorest quality.


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## Josh_

cherine said:
			
		

> The language itself (and I'm talking about the one I understood: Arabic) poor as it is, shows it's a translation (a bad one) of something created by a non-native.
> I think the same goes for the Kurdish ones too, specially that -as Tisia said-
> So they're nothing but propaganda, of the poorest quality.


I agree, they are nothing but propaganda, and not very good at that.  Look at this from Tisia's translation in the other thread:



> The terrorists kill more Iraqis than the coalition forces


This made me laugh. Not the killing part, but because it reminded me of something President Bush would say. Definitely bad wording for someone trying to win others over with sweet language. They should have not said anything about the coalition killing Iraqis if they wanted to win the people over.


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## cuchuflete

Josh,
Many thanks for clearing up so many questions.  Now that we have more insight into the origin of the materials, I'm still not in the least surprised: Poor quality propaganda for Iraqis, courtesy of the US Gov't. and its sundry agents.

That's called equity.  American citizens get exactly the same.
How many times the current administration has tried to feed us dishonest propaganda...from WMD to the inevitable replays of Lyndon Johnson and Robert McNamara..but now they are called Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld..."We have turned the corner in the war..." 

Same old stuff, different country.


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## MarcB

Thanks for many informative comments. So it appears to most that this propaganda/marketing is of low quality and not written by native Kurds or Arabs. One positive note: an effort has been made to communicate with local people in their respective languages. The goal of all prop/mark is to convince people of something, political or commercial. Whether this can change long term animosities  remains to be seen.


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## natasha2000

MarcB said:
			
		

> Thanks for many informative comments. So it appears to most that this propaganda/marketing is of low quality and not written by native Kurds or Arabs. One positive note: an effort has been made to communicate with local people in their respective languages. The goal of all prop/mark is to convince people of something, political or commercial. Whether this can change long term animosities remains to be seen.


 
I would say a very bad and above all wrong way to "communicate" with local people... This type of propaganda cannot persuade not even a 3-year-olds, let alone people who were bombed, beaten, contaminated, lied, tortured, hummiliated destroyed and lost their country (because, youmust admit, what and however it was with Sadam, it was better than it is now)by the very same ones who now try to "get apporoach" to them distributing this rubbish....
Sometimes I really get sick and tired of the "civilized world"....


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