# Ph.D. student



## muriel

Guten Sontag, meine lieben Freunde,
ich frage mich, wie sagt man auf Deutsch "Ph.D. student".
Ich habe Wortebuecher nachgeschlagen, aber nichts Exaktes gefunden.
Vielen Dank im Voraus.

Muriel


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## Jana337

"Doktorand" dürfte am üblichsten sein. 

Auch PhD-Student(in), PhD-Studierende.


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## muriel

Vielen Dank Jana,
weisst du auch, welche Moeglichkeiten dieser akademische Titel eroeffnet?
Ich meine, gibt es Berufe, die diesen Titel erfordern?

In Italien ist es nur ein akademischer Titel, fast ohne direkte Wirkungen. Ist es so auch in Deutschland?

Danke

Muriel


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## Jana337

Es kommt natürlich eine akademische Kariere in Frage, aber viele PhDs findet man auch bei großen Firmen usw.


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## muriel

Ach, Ja. Verstaendlich.
Vielen Dank, Jana.

Tschuess

Muriel


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## floridasnowbird

muriel said:


> Ich habe Wortebuecher nachgeschlagen, aber nichts Exaktes gefunden.


 
de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ph._D.


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## aleksk

In Germany traditionally there aren't PhD degrees or studies that offer PhD degrees - those are typical of the Anglo-American countries and the higher educaton system of these countries. A German doctorate is not equivalent to a PhD degree, and is never translated as such (i.e. you cannot earn a doctorate in Germany, go to America and say I have a PhD - your doctorate will not be accredited as such. The studies themselves are differently structured - for instance, a PhD degree typically involves distinctive semesters, exams and a plethora of mini-research projects (which you will ultimately incorporate into a final PhD thesis), while a doctorate is strictly a thesis which involves continuous and extensive theory and empirical research of a particular research problem - typically will span across a 3 year period.  

Even the whole application process is different - in Germany you apply for a doctorate with a research proposal (project) - you already have to know the title of your thesis and the methodology you'll employ. In America, the UK, Canada or Australia you apply for a PhD in particular area (for example nuclear biology) but you figure out your final thesis gradually during the first year, while you also take exams and work on research projects. 

In recent years, there have been some offerings of the Anglo-American PhD studies in Germany as well, but these are almost exclusively done in co-operation with American or British universities.

So, look no further for a translation of a "Phd student" in German - there is no any.


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## muriel

Mir wird jetzt klar, warum ich keine exakte Uebersetzung finden konnte. Ich kannte mich einfach nicht aus!

Trotzdem werde ich Janas Ausdruck "Doktorand" benuetzen: Ich brauche das italienische Wort "dottorando" zu uebersetzen. Es scheint mir jetzt klarer, dass in Deutschland das System ziemlich aehnlich wie in Italien ist.

Vielen Dank.

Muriel


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## starrynightrhone

aleksk said:


> In Germany traditionally there aren't PhD degrees or studies that offer PhD degrees - those are typical of the Anglo-American countries and the higher educaton system of these countries. A German doctorate is not equivalent to a PhD degree, and is never translated as such (i.e. you cannot earn a doctorate in Germany, go to America and say I have a PhD - your doctorate will not be accredited as such. The studies themselves are differently structured - for instance, a PhD degree typically involves distinctive semesters, exams and a plethora of mini-research projects (which you will ultimately incorporate into a final PhD thesis), while a doctorate is strictly a thesis which involves continuous and extensive theory and empirical research of a particular research problem - typically will span across a 3 year period.
> 
> [...]
> 
> So, look no further for a translation of a "Phd student" in German - there is no any.


 
A PhD might not be the legal equivalent of a "Dr. phil." (this may be changing in the Bologna process though), but in my opinion it is the cultural equivalent. So "Doktorand" will probably be understood as somebody studying towards a doctorate degree, no matter in which country and no matter what it's status is. I see no problem here.


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## aleksk

I agree. It's just that tecnically speaking - in legal (official) documents you can't translate the German "Doktorand" with PhD; as I said different studies leading to different degrees which are comparable only on a general level. In everyday communication it's acceptable of course.


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## starrynightrhone

aleksk said:


> I agree. It's just that tecnically speaking - in legal (official) documents you can't translate the German "Doktorand" with PhD;


 
Objection 

(I'll send you a pm with the details)


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## muriel

Warum heisst dieses Program "Bologna"?
Das interessiert mich. Hat das vielleicht etwas mit Jura zu tun?

Vielen Dank.

Muriel


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## starrynightrhone

muriel said:


> Warum heisst dieses Program "Bologna"?
> Das interessiert mich. Hat das vielleicht etwas mit Jura zu tun?


 
Muriel, soweit ich weiß wurde der Vertrag an der Universität von Bologna ausgehandelt oder unterschrieben. 

Ich spreche zwar kein Italienisch, aber ich denke diese Seite wird dir weiterhelfen (du kannst auch auf die deutsche Seite wechseln):

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Processo_di_Bologna


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## muriel

Ach so, jetzt verstehe ich.
Vielen Dank!


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## Yankee_inCA

aleksk said:


> a PhD degree typically involves distinctive semesters, exams and a plethora of mini-research projects (which you will ultimately incorporate into a final PhD thesis), while a doctorate is strictly a thesis which involves continuous and extensive theory and empirical research of a particular research problem - typically will span across a 3 year period.



That sounds similar to the U.S. (all these years after this original post!), where the student has a lot of other required work in addition to the dissertation, and can, in fact, end up a dreaded "ABD" - "all but dissertation." One's thesis advisor is just that - a "thesis advisor," whereas in German, because the dissertation is more closely supervised (nicht wahr?), the student has a "Doktorvater" or "-mutter." 

But it is the *second dissertation *that interests me - the *Habilitation*, where the student supervisizes his/her own research entirely alone in preparation for an academic life as a professor who will serve as "Doctoral Daddy"  to others. 

*My question is*, what is the abbreviation after a person's name who has achieved such a lofty position? Would it be, say, Dr. Karl S. Meyer, *Ph.D., h.c.*?

Vielen Dank!


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## Hutschi

aleksk said:


> I agree. It's just that tecnically speaking - in legal (official) documents you can't translate the German "Doktorand" with PhD; ...



Note that a Doktorand is not a Doktor, not even as cultural equivalent. So I fully agree, but by other reasons.
The Doktorand wants to become Doktor while a PhD is already PhD.
In German I am not sure about the status of Doktorand as Student. 
Is a Doktorand formally a "Student"?


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## stefffi

*@Hutschi:*
In a structered PhD program ("strukturiertes Promotionsprogramm", i.e. a curriculum of seminars, lectures and an ordinary thesis which leads to a doctorate) Doktoranden are often called Promotionsstudenten. Doktoranden working as research assistants (that's the majority) wouldn't normally be called students.

Notice that in some field (especially my own: medicine) it is possible to write a (usally short) MD thesis before you complete your studies. Those students are called Doktoranden, too.

*@Yankee_inCA:*
I wouldn't say that theses are more closely supervised in Germany (at least in the field that I know: maths, physics, chemistry, biology, medicine, etc. etc.). The PhD candidates are usually encouraged to do their own research without instructions from their advisor.

To the Habilitation:
* As long as you're working on your Habilitation you may only use your highest degree so far: e.g. Dr. Karl Meyer. You never mention your doctorate twice as in Dr. Karl Meyer, PhD, all scientist I know who do that actually have two doctorates, one from a German-speaking university and one from a English-speaking university. The "h.c." must be used if your doctorate is honorary and always belong to the "Dr.": Dr. h.c. Karl Meyer
* If you completed your Habilitation you may call yourself Dr. *habil. *Karl Meyer.
* If you completed your Habilitation and you're teaching at a university you may call youself PD Dr. Karl Meyer, where PD stands for Privatdozent. (The regulations for PDs differ in the Bundesländern)

After all doctorates mentioned above you may indicate the field of study: e.g. Dr. *phil.* or Dr. *rer. nat.* habil


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## berndf

Yankee_inCA said:


> *My question is*, what is the abbreviation after a person's name who has achieved such a lofty position? Would it be, say, Dr. Karl S. Meyer, *Ph.D., h.c.*?


As Steffi said, it is _Dr. habil.
_
_Ph.D_ is an abbreviation of the English word _philosophical doctor_. In German, it makes no sense because all abbreviations of doctor titles are Latin. The equivalent German abbreviation is_ Dr. phil., __*D*octo*r* *phil*osophiae,_ but this title is rarely used except for "true" doctors in philosophy; usually titles are more specific, like _Dr. rer. pol._ (_rerum politicarum_=political sciences), _Dr. rer. nat._ (_rerum naturalium_, natural sciences), _Dr. phil. nat._ (_philosophiae naturalis, _natural philosophy, used by some faculties instead of _Dr. rer. nat._) and others (here is a looong list).

In German, academic titles are never put behind the name but always in front.
_
Dr. h.c._ means _*D*octo*r* *h*onoris *c*ausa _(_=honorary doctor_)_._


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## stefffi

berndf said:


> In German, academic titles are never put behind the name but always in front.


No. Old M.A. (Magister(/-ra) Artium) titles and new B.Sc./M.Sc./M.A. (Master of Arts)/Ph.D. are usually mentioned after the name: Fritz Meyer, M.A.
You're right where German diplomas (old) and doctorates are concerned.


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## berndf

stefffi said:


> No. Old M.A. (Magister(/-ra) Artium) titles and new B.Sc./M.Sc./M.A. (Master of Arts)/Ph.D. are usually mentioned after the name: Fritz Meyer, M.A.
> You're right where German diplomas (old) and doctorates are concerned.


Fortunately, this horrible Bologna stuff has happened after my university days.

Can you show me "M.A." anywhere in texts from pre-Bologna times? I only know _Mag. art._


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## stefffi

M.A. was/is the usual abbreviation for Magistri artium. An example is our collaborator in this forum: Gernot Back, M.A. (e.g. http://www.sprachlernspiele.de/autor.html).


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## Gernot Back

Hallo Steffi, hallo Bernd,

ich habe eben sicherheitshalber noch einmal auf der ersten Seite meines Magisterzeugnisses nachgeschaut: Ja, in der Tat, der Wortlaut ist dort: 


> Der Fachbereich Philologie II verleiht (...) den akademischen Grad eines *Magister Artium* an Gernot Back (...) Er hat das Recht, den Titel Magister Artium *(M.A.)* hinter dem Namen zu führen.


(Davon mache ich allerdings nur seltenst Gebrauch; eigentlich nur auf meinen experimentellen Deutsch-als-Fremdsprache-Webseiten) 

Gruß Gernot


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## berndf

Vielen Dank, Gernot. Man lernt nie aus.


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## Hutschi

One additional question: Is it Doktorant or Doktorand? I found both in dictionaries. Duden says "Doktorand".
Wikipedia says "Doktorant".


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## berndf

Hutschi said:


> One additional question: Is it Dorktorant or Doktorand? I found both in dictionaries. Duden says "Doktorand".
> Wikipedia says "Doktorant".


Bis ins 19. Jahrhundert waren noch beide Formen verbreitet, heute hat sich die Passiv-Form _-and_ durchgesetzt. Sie ist semantisch auch sinnvoller: Basis ist die Wortneuschöpfung des mittelalterlichen akademischen Latein_ doctorare = die Doktorwürde verleihen_. Entsprechend hieße _Doktorant _(_-nt-_, Nominativ _-ns_, ist der Suffix des Aktivpartizip Präsens) _der die Doktorwürde verleiht_, während _Doktorand _(_-nd-_ ist der Suffix des Gerundivum, Passivpartizip Futur) _dem die Doktorwürde zu verleihen ist oder sein wird_ bedeutet.


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## Yankee_inCA

Vielen Dank! *Berndf *writes, "I wouldn't say that theses are more closely supervised in Germany." *Aleksk *had written as though there was a vast _gulf _between U.S. and German doctorates ["A German doctorate is not equivalent to a PhD degree"] even though the entire educational system in the U.S. is taken from the German model [not the British] from Kindergarten up. In my attempt to reconcile contradictory claims, I should not have speculated as I did (based solely on the sweet "Doktorvater"). Entschuldigung! 

Yes, Dr. So-and-So Ph.D. is redundant here too. [By coincidence, "Dr. Phil" is the name of a hugely popular TV self-help guru here.], but how _ambitious _for a physician to write a thesis! In this country they're lucky to make it out of internship alive, and if offered the opportunity to take that step, most medical students would greet it with a jaundiced laugh. Thank you for the abundance of clarification! However, you use the word "may" a great deal, which leaves me one last question. _Officially_, in ordinary practice, and to the _outside world_, or [most restrictively of all, one presumes] _on a passport_, is there generally _no distinction _between a habilitated Ph.D. and a regular one, or any other type of Ph.D.? Meyer's neighbors would address a formal invitation to him _not _"Herr Dr. habil. Meyer" but to "Herr Dr. Meyer" *or *"Herr Meyer, Ph.D.", right?

Vielen vielen vielen Dank!!


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## stefffi

Yankee_inCA said:


> Meyer's neighbors would address a formal invitation to him _not _"Herr Dr. habil. Meyer" but to "Herr Dr. Meyer" *or *"Herr Meyer, Ph.D.", right?



You would normally write a (formal!) letter to "Herr PD Dr. Meyer" and if he's not a PD to "Herr Dr. habil. Meyer", but orally address him as "Herr Dr. Mayer".

But you should know that all titles (Dr., Prof. etc.) aren't really used anymore in many situations. At my university a student would *never *address a staff member as "Herr Doktor X" or "Herr Professor X" but always "Herr X", even in written conversation. A lecturer who does not hold a PhD yet is usually addressed by his or her first name and is "geduzt".


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## Yankee_inCA

Thank you. This is invaluable. I really, truly appreciate it.


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