# All IIR Languages: ظالما (vocative)



## tiffyblue

I came across this word - ظالما and want to know what it means and how it would be used and said. I'm a beginner and have just started to learn Arabic and urdu so I'm still rusty and google translate (which is pretty bad) isn't really helping me much - it keeps switching saying that - ظالما - is arabic or urdu.


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## Alfaaz

The word is from Arabic and also present in Urdu. However, the form you have written is the vocative in Punjabi.


> A ظالم _z̤ālim_ (act. part. of ظلم 'to act wrongfully or tyrannically'), part. adj. & s.m. Acting wrongfully, tyrannical, unjust, cruel;—a tyrant, an oppressor, a wrong-doer, a cruel person; (_met._) an unrelenting sweetheart, a cruel mistress ...


Urdu:

Vocative forms of a word ending in a consonant:
Singular: یا/اے) ظالم) - _(yaa/ae) zaalim! _
Plural: ظالمو -_ zaalimo! _and/or ظالمین _- zaalimiin!_

Vocative forms of a word not ending with a consonant sound:
Masculine (ending in _-a_)
Singular: کمینہ - _kamiina_ → کمینے - _kamiine!_
Plural: کمینو - _kamiino!_

Feminine (ending in ی)
Singular: کمینی -_ kamiinii!_
Plural: کمینیو -_ kamiiniyo!_


Punjabi:

Vocative forms of a word ending in a consonant:
Singular:ظالم - _zaalim _→ ظالما - _zaalimaa!_
Plural: ظالمو -_ zaalimo!_

Vocative forms of a word not ending with a consonant sound:
Masculine
Singular: _kamiineyaa!_
Plural: _kamiine'o!_

Feminine
Singular: _kamiinii'e!_
Plural: _kamiinii'o!_


Notes: There are a few more intricacies that are not listed above, especially for feminine forms (ending in _-a_) and Arabic plurals! 

For example, the feminine form of the word جاہل is جاہلہ. 
In such cases, the vocative feminine singular and plural would be unchanged: _jaahilah!_ and _jaahilaat! _(Arabic plural form). 
For the masculine plural vocative, the Arabic plural can be also used in this manner جاہلین - _jaahiliin!_. 


یا or اے can be added to explicitly indicate the vocative, just as both _Fools!_ or _O Fools!_ could be used in English. 
If there are any mistakes above, corrections would be highly appreciated!


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## desi4life

Alfaaz said:


> The word is from Arabic and also present in Urdu. However, the form you have written is the vocative in Punjabi.



Isn't _zaalimaa _also the Persian vocative? The Persian vocative would be valid and acceptable in Urdu. By analogy, there is _rabb _and _rabbaa, yaar _and _yaaraa_, etc. - all used in Urdu.


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## marrish

It's equally Persian and Punjabi and Urdu vocative in the singular, however Alfaaz SaaHib has presented more forms. I seem to remember there were discussions about this form (rabb-aa) where it was not exactly clear whether this form was Punjabi or Urdu, it is certainly more productive in that language but you, desi4life are right, it is used in Urdu, especially in verse. The meanings have been expounded upon too so I can't add more than there already is.


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## Alfaaz

desi4life said:
			
		

> Isn't _zaalimaa _also the Persian vocative? The Persian vocative would be valid and acceptable in Urdu. By analogy, there is _rabb _and _rabbaa, yaar _and _yaaraa_, etc. - all used in Urdu.


 Thanks for bringing this up, since I was also a bit unsure about this! (I had a previous thread in mind, where many of the participants were arguing over whether the _-aa vocative_ is present in Urdu or not. Most of the forum members who were a part of this discussion are unfortunately no longer actively participating in the forum, but marrish SaaHib is still present!)


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## desi4life

Interesting. Do either of you know if there is a grammatical reason why _rabbaa _is not used as a vocative in Urdu but _zaalimaa _and _yaaraa _are? Or is it just a curious  twist of fate, so to speak?


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## tiffyblue

Alfaaz said:


> The word is from Arabic and also present in Urdu. However, the form you have written is the vocative in Punjabi. Urdu:
> 
> Vocative forms of a word ending in a consonant:
> Singular: یا/اے) ظالم) - _(yaa/ae) zaalim! _
> Plural: ظالمو -_ zaalimo! _and/or ظالمین _- zaalimiin!_
> 
> Vocative forms of a word not ending with a consonant sound:
> Masculine (ending in _-a_)
> Singular: کمینہ - _kamiina_ → کمینے - _kamiine!_
> Plural: کمینو - _kamiino!_
> 
> Feminine (ending in ی)
> Singular: کمینی -_ kamiinii!_
> Plural: کمینیو -_ kamiiniyo!_
> 
> 
> Punjabi:
> 
> Vocative forms of a word ending in a consonant:
> Singular:ظالم - _zaalim _→ ظالما - _zaalimaa!_
> Plural: ظالمو -_ zaalimo!_
> 
> Vocative forms of a word not ending with a consonant sound:
> Masculine
> Singular: _kamiineyaa!_
> Plural: _kamiine'o!_
> 
> Feminine
> Singular: _kamiinii'e!_
> Plural: _kamiinii'o!_
> 
> 
> Notes: There are a few more intricacies that are not listed above, especially for feminine forms (ending in _-a_) and Arabic plurals!
> 
> For example, the feminine form of the word جاہل is جاہلہ.
> In such cases, the vocative feminine singular and plural would be unchanged: _jaahilah!_ and _jaahilaat! _(Arabic plural form).
> For the masculine plural vocative, the Arabic plural can be also used in this manner جاہلین - _jaahiliin!_.
> 
> 
> یا or اے can be added to explicitly indicate the vocative, just as both _Fools!_ or _O Fools!_ could be used in English.
> If there are any mistakes above, corrections would be highly appreciated!



Thank you so much for your help!!
I just had one question. What would this mean -ظالمة - one of my friends says that's the same as - cruel/unjust (feminine).


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## Alfaaz

tiffyblue said:
			
		

> Thank you so much for your help!!
> I just had one question. What would this mean -ظالمة - one of my friends says that's the same as - cruel/unjust (feminine).


 You're welcome! However, I realized after posting that there was no context provided (and another similar thread in the Arabic forum as well). A lack of context is considered against forum rules (possibly leading to deletion of the thread) and also creates confusion*. 

It would be helpful if you could provide information about where you came across the word (Arabic or Urdu), how you encountered it (speech or writing), etc.
* The word you encountered could have been ظالماً and/or ظالمة, which you have asked about now. That would render the previously given information about Urdu, Punjabi, Persian vocative forms irrelevant.

Yes, that is correct. ظالمة is the feminine form of ظالم.


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## tiffyblue

If I remember correctly both words - ظالما and ظالمة were being used to describe a cruel queen.


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## marrish

There is a possiblility the word was ظالمانہ, where the last part, ۔ نہ could have been read as the negative particle.

Anyhow, it is not the normal Urdu pattern to form vocatives. As I said in the now deleted post, it can be plausible in Urdu as a Persian form - but only in verse. I'll have to check this matter out; the normal Urdu vocative is اے ظالم _a'e zaalim!_


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## desi4life

@Treaty @PersoLatin For the Persian perspective, can you verify if _zaalimaa_, _yaaraa_, and _rabbaa _are all used as vocatives or if the latter is not used because it's from an Arabic word for God? Knowing the Persian usage will also help sort things out for Urdu.


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## PersoLatin

desi4life said:


> @Treaty @PersoLatin For the Persian perspective, can you verify if _zaalimaa_, _yaaraa_, and _rabbaa _are all used as vocatives or if the latter is not used because it's from an Arabic word for God? Knowing the Persian usage will also help sort things out for Urdu.


I haven't heard ظالما in Persian, but if I had, & in the correct context, I am sure I would have understood it. Addition of aa/â is used for vocatives mood, the same as in خدا یا/oh god or حافظا/oh Hâfez, a point to remember is when the word ends with a strong vowel as in خدا , you'd use yaa/yâ as opposed to aa/â. یارا/yârâ  is definitely used in Persian, and I am sure I have seen رَبا/_rabbaa/rabbâ _too_, _with the same meaning as خدا یا/oh god. So in the correct context, appropriate Arabic words can also be made vocative with this method.


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## Alfaaz

desi4life said:
			
		

> Interesting. Do either of you know if there is a grammatical reason why _rabbaa _is not used as a vocative in Urdu...


 Update: According to the electronic version of _Urdu Lughat - taariixii usuul par _(a 22 volume Urdu dictionary), ربّا (here) as a vocative is present in Urdu. One literary example is from 1875, while another is from 1974.


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## Sheikh_14

Zaalimaa in terms of calling someone out as a tyrant is as prevalent in modern day Urdu as it is in Punjabi. There's a popular Coke advert which banks on its usage across both languages going something like "Zaalimaa Coca Cola pilaa de". However, the distinction to be made is with zaalimah which means a female tyrant. Of course Zaalimaa can be used for both a Zaalim or a Zaalimah. When it comes to the vocative gender isn't too relevant in this case.

Would this suggest that the plural form of female tyrants then would be Zaalimaat as opposed to Zaalimaan which would be used for their male contemporaries?


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## mannoushka

I would have expected Arabic to have a different vocative form, یا ظالم, for instance. As an aside, I wonder what one could say to a person one has addressed as merciless, where would the conversation go?


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## Qureshpor

desi4life said:


> Interesting. Do either of you know if there is a grammatical reason why _rabbaa _is not used as a vocative in Urdu but _zaalimaa _and _yaaraa _are? Or is it just a curious  twist of fate, so to speak?


Very good question. Although Alfaaz SaaHib has provided a couple of examples, I have never heard it used in proper Urdu context, in speech or in writing. By "proper" I mean when it does not have a Punjabi link to it. In Urdu, xudaayaa is the commonly used vocative. I can't think of a good reason why an alif is not normally added to "rabb". Equivalent vocatives are "yaa rab", "yaa Allah" and of course (yaa) xudaayaa as already mentioned. There is "parvardigaaraa" too.


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## Qureshpor

mannoushka said:


> I would have expected Arabic to have a different vocative form, یا ظالم, for instance. As an aside, I wonder what one could say to a person one has addressed as merciless, where would the conversation go?


یا ایّھا الظّالم

یا ایّتھا الظالمات


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## aevynn

mannoushka said:


> As an aside, I wonder what one could say to a person one has addressed as merciless, where would the conversation go?


I'm intrigued by this question. At least in Urdu-Hindi poetry, the word _zaalim_ in its various vocative forms is rather common. It's often used to refer to a "cruel" beloved ("cruel" because their beauty is overwhelming, or because they don't reciprocate your love, etc). For example, this is what happens in the 2017 Bollywood song Zaalima written by Amitabh Bhattacharya (lyrics and translation here). In a more 'literary' vein, here's a couplet by eighteenth-century poet Mir Taqi 'Mir' in which a _zaalim_ is addressed as such but the reason for this address is left up to the reader's interpretation:
​مانگے ہے دعا خلق تجھے دیکھ کے ظالم​یا رب کسو کو اس سے سروکار نہ ہووے​​maange hai du3aa xalq tujhe dekh ke zaalim​yaa rab kaso ko is se sarokaar nah hove​​The world prays upon seeing you, O _zaalim_,​"May no one have anything to do with him/her!"​
Are vocatives of ظالم not common in Persian poetry?


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## mannoushka

Thank you, aevynn. The answer to your question at the end is a non-emphatic no, though the idea of a heartless beauty perpetrating cruelty on the hapless lover persona and critical appraisals of the character and fate of despotic rulers who lord it over the oppressed masses certainly exists in ample measure in classical literature. As for that particular word, I cannot recall ever having encountered it before, though I couldn't be sure that synonymous constructs such as ای ستم‌گر (pronounced ay setam gar) have not come up in my reading. Of course ستم is ظلم, injustice, brutality, and cruelty all packed into the one word.


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## Qureshpor

An example from خاقانی

خیرہ کشا بد کنشا ظالما
این همه نیکان مکش و بد مکن


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## rarabara

tiffyblue said:


> I came across this word - ظالما and want to know what it means and how it would be used and said. I'm a beginner and have just started to learn Arabic and urdu so I'm still rusty and google translate (which is pretty bad) isn't really helping me much


this word in kurdish means "to someone who is cruel"


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