# Urdu-Hindi: sar/sir (head)



## Qureshpor

While speaking Urdu, Hindi or Punjabi in what circumstances is it "sar" for you and when is it "sir" (head)?


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## marrish

Interesting question as ever- 
dard-e sar
az sar-e nau
naye sire se
sarsabz
sir khapaanaa


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## UrduMedium

marrish said:


> Interesting question as ever-
> dard-e sar
> az sar-e nau
> naye sire se
> sarsabz
> sir khapaanaa



fikr-i-dunyaa meN sar khapaataa huuN
maiN kahaaN aur yeh vabaal kahaaN

Ghalib


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## Alfaaz

Always sar in Urdu, except _siryouN ki yakhnii _for "fish-heads broth"; (guessing sir is the Punjabi pronunciation...?)


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## UrduMedium

Alfaaz said:


> Always sar in Urdu, except _siryouN ki yakhnii _for "fish-heads broth"; (guessing sir is the Punjabi pronunciation...?)



I believe _sar_ is Persian and _sir _is Indic.

I was also thinking _sirii paa'e_


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## Qureshpor

Alfaaz said:


> Always sar in Urdu, except _siryouN ki yakhnii _for "fish-heads broth"; (guessing sir is the Punjabi pronunciation...?)



Apart your Punjabi guessing )), are you sure about Urdu having "sar" universally?


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## Alfaaz

> Apart your Punjabi guessing )), are you sure about Urdu having "sar" universally?


No not really! I have heard sir from some Urdu and Hindi speakers and it might be that some words use "sir" as marrish SaaHib has indicated above....I cannot think of any right now;

There _has_ to be some hidden rule, exception, etc., or Qureshpor SaaHib would not have asked this question....


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## Qureshpor

UrduMedium said:


> fikr-i-dunyaa meN sar khapaataa huuN
> maiN kahaaN aur yeh vabaal kahaaN
> 
> Ghalib



Is there any reason why this can not be "sir khapaanaa"?


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## UrduMedium

QURESHPOR said:


> UrduMedium said:
> 
> 
> 
> fikr-i-dunyaa meN sar khapaataa huuN
> maiN kahaaN aur yeh vabaal kahaaN
> 
> Ghalib
> 
> 
> 
> Is there any reason why this can not be "sir khapaanaa"?
Click to expand...

No, there's no reason it cannot be _sir_. However, I have always heard it quoted as _sar_. What's your view?


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## BP.

Urdu:
The only remnant of sir I can think of is sirii paa2ee, which is also the name of two mountains in the KP region of Pakistan.


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## greatbear

"sir" always for me, personally.


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## panjabigator

Aside from "sire charhauNaa," I've always heard "sar" from Urdu speakers and Punjabi speakers from Pakistan. We say "sir" at home, but I usually say "sar" nowadays.


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## tonyspeed

QURESHPOR said:


> While speaking Urdu, Hindi or Punjabi in what circumstances is it "sar" for you and when is it "sir" (head)?



Has anyone ever heard shir? It is in Platts as shir, not sir. I also found that spelling on another online dictionary.


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## drkpp

tonyspeed said:


> Has anyone ever heard shir? It is in Platts as shir, not sir. I also found that spelling on another online dictionary.


  शिरस्‌ [shiras] is a Sanskrit word meaning 'head'.


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## tonyspeed

drkpp said:


> शिरस्‌ [shiras] is a Sanskrit word meaning 'head'.



I think we are primarily discussing Hindi/Urdu in this thread. In Hindi there are several pronunciations given: sir, sar, shir.
I was asking if the shir pronunciation is still being used and where.


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## Qureshpor

BelligerentPacifist said:


> Urdu:
> The only remnant of sir I can think of is sirii paa2ee, which is also the name of two mountains in the KP region of Pakistan.



BP SaaHib, have you come across "sir-choT" and "sir-Duub" and "sir munDvaate hii ole paRnaa".

@ UM SaaHib. I shall give my view soon.


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## BP.

QURESHPOR said:


> BP SaaHib, have you come across "sir-choT" and "sir-Duub" and "sir munDvaate hii ole paRnaa".
> ...


The last, as "sar munDwaatee...".


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## Qureshpor

BelligerentPacifist said:


> The last, as "sar munDwaatee...".



sir/sar munDvaane par bandah ba3d meN baat kare gaa....

baalaa-i-zamiin teGh se kaT kaT ke gire sir
ik chashm-zadan meN saff-i-avval hu'ii aaxir


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## Alfaaz

QURESHPOR said:
			
		

> baalaa-i-zamiin teGh se kaT kaT ke gire sir
> ik chashm-zadan meN saff-i-avval hu'ii aaxir


 As I said: 


			
				Alfaaz said:
			
		

> There _has_ to be some hidden rule, exception, etc., or Qureshpor SaaHib would not have asked this question....


Qureshpor SaaHib, could the above quote be an example of forced rhyme (sir--aakhir / sar--aakhar)? Does this mean _"sir"_ is also correct and used in Urdu?


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## Qureshpor

Alfaaz said:


> As I said:
> 
> Qureshpor SaaHib, could the above quote be an example of forced rhyme (sir--aakhir / sar--aakhar)? Does this mean _"sir"_ is also correct and used in Urdu?



Not at all! The poet is extremely well known! All will be revealed in due course!


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## Faylasoof

_yeh kaih ke rakh diyaa qadam-e-shaah-e-diiN pah *sar*
HaDhrat samajh ga’e keh ab inkaa bhii hai *safar*

qaasim se phir kahaa keh mubaarak ho tumheN *zafar*
tasliim kii adab se chachaa ko jhukaa ke *sar*
aur 3arDh kii yeh duur se haathoN ko joR *kar*
iqbaal aap kaa keh muhim ho ga’ii yeh *sar*

Ghash meN jhukaa faras pah jo woh Ghairat-e-*qamar*
maaraa kisii ne farq pah ik gurz-e-gaav *sar*

akbar ke intiqaal kii naubat bajii *udhar *
nilkii idhar se duxtar-e-zahraa baraihnah *sar*

baalaa-i-zamiin teGh se kaT kaT ke gire *sar*
ik chashm-zadan meN saff-i-avval hu'ii *aaxar*_

We always have it as *sar* and never *sir *since we follow the Persian pronunciation. Besides, for us *sir* (or rather *sirr *but the ‘r’ _shaddah_ is hardly heard making it sound like *sir*) is this: A *سر sirr *(v.n. fr. سرّ 'to rejoice or delight'), s.m. A _*secret; a mystery *_= *raaz.*

In the last verse we say *aaxar* which is allowed in poetry but not in our speech where we always say *aaxir*. Here we say *aaxar *just to rhyme it with *sar*.


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> We always have it as *sar* and never *sir *since we follow the Persian pronunciation. Besides, for us *sir* (or rather *sirr *but the ‘r’ _shaddah_ is hardly heard making it sound like *sir*) is this: A *سر sirr *(v.n. fr. سرّ 'to rejoice or delight'), s.m. A _*secret; a mystery *_= *raaz.*
> 
> In the last verse we say *aaxar* which is allowed in poetry but not in our speech where we always say *aaxir*. Here we say *aaxar *just to rhyme it with *sar*.



We too always say "sar" in Urdu. I have started this thread with a particular view point in mind. I am aware of the poetic licence in Urdu and as far as I know the word "kaafir" is given the special privilege of becoming "kaafar" but not "aaxir". At least I had n't come across "aaxir" changing to "aaxar" to rhyme with an "-ar" word. In the case of my quoted couplet, I would suggest that the words are indeed "sir" and "aaxir". aaxar results in change of meaning whereas "kaafar" does not have that effect.

Is there any possibility of posting a link for this piece of poetry, Faylasoof SaaHib?I know the poet but where exactly has this piece come from?


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## drkpp

tonyspeed said:


> I think we are primarily discussing Hindi/Urdu in this thread. In Hindi there are several pronunciations given: sir, sar, shir.
> I was asking if the shir pronunciation is still being used and where.


In Marathi, the word 'shir' is used to mean 'head'.


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## Qureshpor

greatbear said:


> "sir" always for me, personally.



As a matter of interest, outside Bollywood, have you come across "sar" at all in Hindi?


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## greatbear

QURESHPOR said:


> As a matter of interest, outside Bollywood, have you come across "sar" at all in Hindi?



Yes, of course! "Sar" is also quite common, especially in compounds like "sar dard" (which I say as "sir dard", but many others with "sar" even if they say the standalone word as "sir").
Also, for some non-native speakers of Hindi, "sar" comes more naturally to them: for example, the Gujarati word for head is "sar", so most of them use the same word in Hindi.


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## Qureshpor

Does anyone have net access to at least the piece that Faylasoof SaaHib has quoted? It is by Mir Babar Anees.


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> Originally Posted by *Faylasoof*  We always have it as *sar* and never *sir *since we follow the Persian pronunciation. Besides, for us *sir* (or rather *sirr *but the ‘r’ _shaddah_ is hardly heard making it sound like *sir*) is this: A *سر sirr *(v.n. fr. سرّ 'to rejoice or delight'), s.m. A _*secret; a mystery *_= *raaz.*
> 
> In the last verse we say *aaxar* which is allowed in poetry but not in our speech where we always say *aaxir*. Here we say *aaxar *just to rhyme it with *sar*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We too always say "sar" in Urdu. I have started this thread with a particular view point in mind. I am aware of the poetic licence in Urdu and as far as I know the word "kaafir" is given the special privilege of becoming "kaafar" but not "aaxir". At least I had n't come across "aaxir" changing to "aaxar" to rhyme with an "-ar" word. In the case of my quoted couplet, I would suggest that the words are indeed "sir" and "aaxir". aaxar results in change of meaning whereas "kaafar" does not have that effect.
> 
> Is there any possibility of posting a link for this piece of poetry, Faylasoof SaaHib?I know the poet but where exactly has this piece come from?
Click to expand...

 QP SaaHib I understand well your purpose in starting this thread. Actually, a long while ago we ended up discussing this very topic as part of something else. I can't seem to  find it now! But it is good we now have a thread on this.

Yes, many (most?) people in both India and Pakistan say "*sar*" but I've also heard the Indic "*sir*" as well. As for *aaxar*, as I say we never say it in speech but it is allowed for rhyme in poetry. Unlike *kaafar*_ ,_ the word *aaxar *officially exists in Urdu - well classical Urdu at least.  Platts even lists it:

A آخر _āḵẖar_, pron. adj. Another, the other.

The official meaning (above) is as it is in the original Arabic but when used in the context we are dealing with the meaning can be taken as *aaxir*.

Sorry, I have not been able to find a link for this verse anywhere on the net. Actually very little of Anis's huge output (even more than Firdowsi's) has found its way on the web.


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> Does anyone have net access to at least the piece that Faylasoof SaaHib has quoted? It is by Mir Babar Anees.


 QP SaaHIb, nearly all that I quoted are from different _maraathii_. If you wish to know more about them then I can certainly start looking. I have not been able to find a link to any of these anywhere on the net.

As I mention above very little of Anis' works are on the net. For Dabir there might be even less.


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> QP SaaHIb, nearly all that I quoted are from different _maraathii_. If you wish to know more about them then I can certainly start looking. I have not been able to find a link to any of these anywhere on the net.
> 
> As I mention above very little of Anis' works are on the net. For Dabir there might be even less.



Thank you Faylasoof SaaHib. The fact that your quote is not from one continuous piece of poetry makes my task much easier! I have found some (fairly lengthy) pieces of Anis' works and I shall pass the link onto you. Hopefully, tonight I shall write a little more on this topic.


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## Qureshpor

UrduMedium said:


> No, there's no reason it cannot be _sir_. However, I have always heard it quoted as _sar_. What's your view?



The above quote is with reference to "sar khapaanaa/sir khapaanaa".

My understanding has been that whether we use "sir" in Punjabi without exception, it is a definite no no in Urdu where it is always "sar". However, from a very young age since I first had my own dictionary (Kitaabistaan's 20th Century Urdu-English Dictionary) compiled by a certain worthy gentleman by the name of Bashir Ahmad Quraishi, to my utter surprise I became aware of the occurrence of "sir" in Urdu!

The above mentioned dictionary in nasx font is laid out in such a manner that each page is divided into two by a vertical line in the centre of it. "sar" entries begin on page 404 on the right side of the vertical line about two-thirds down the page. It finishes on page 406 five lines down the right side of the dividing line where "sir" entries begin. A little less space but not by a great deal is devoted to "sir". It might not be too surprising to find the sar/sir entries in Platts (1874) but Quraishi's dictionary came out in 1967 (?) and by then surely "sir" would have become obsolete in Urdu. If that was the case, why did Professor Quraishi decide to keep the "sir" constructions? Using my dictionary, I will quote a few examples of each.

sar-i-tasliim xam honaa
sar-anjaam karnaa/denaa
sar-dhaR kii baazii lagaanaa
sargoshiyaaN karnaa
sar-o-kaar rakhnaa

.............................

sir aaNkhoN par biThaanaa
sir par jinn chaRnaa/savaar honaa
sir par ghar uThaa lenaa
sir khapaanaa (from Platts)
sir munDvaate hii ole paRnaa

..............................................

Recently, this topic came to my mind once again. This is what Nur-ul-Hasan Nayyir Kaakorvii, compiler of "Nur-ul-LuGhaat" (1917) has to say about the words "sar" and "sir".

sar (f)* bi_lfatH (with an a), Sanskrit meN shir bi_lkasr (with an i) sir paRnaa, gale kaa haar honaa.

*faarsii ma3aanii aur *faarsii tarkiiboN meN sar bi_lfatH hai. Urdu muHavaraat meN bi_lkasr hii fasiiH hai. dekho sir honaa ma3nii number ul (?) meN bhii Begumaat kii zabaanoN par bi_lkasr hai.(Anis)

baalaa-i-zamiin teGh se kaT kaT ke gire s*i*r
ik chashm-zadan meN saff-i-avval hu'ii aax*i*r

Anis

(Volume 3 page 221) 

The learned author goes onto give a number of examples, including "sir-khip" with a quote from Insha and "sir khapaanaa", with a quote from Ghalib. (Volume 3 page 243)

You may wonder why the compiler mentioned "sir honaa".

dekhte hii shakl raaz-i-dil se maah*i*r ho ga'e
phir vuh nah Taale Tale jis baat ke s*i*r ho ga'e

DaaGh

Now, Anis' couplet that is quoted by Kaakorvii (and me in my earlier post) comes from (I believe) one of his marsiyas. A marsiyah's form is that of a musaddas (a six liner) in the pattern aa, aa, bb. My feeling is that these two lines are the bb part of his six liner.

What does all this prove? Just that in modern day Urdu speech, "sar" has almost wholly consumed "sir" constructions even when they form part of our Classical literature. By the way, I have a dictionary on "Begumaat kii zabaan" and indeed  examples of "sir" usage abound in there too.


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## UrduMedium

^ So in light of your post #8 and the one above, do you think we should read "sir" instead of "sar", in the following from Ghailb?

fikr-i-dunyaa meN *sar khapaataa *huuN
maiN kahaaN aur yeh vabaal kahaaN


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## marrish

UrduMedium said:


> ^ So in the light of your post #8 and the one above, do you think we should read "sir" instead of "sar", in the following from Ghailb?
> 
> fikr-i-dunyaa meN *sar khapaataa *huuN
> maiN kahaaN aur yeh vabaal kahaaN



In the meantime let me say I've heard the renderings of this couplet with ''sar''. For me it is ''sir'' and so I was used to read it. If persuaded I might go on to agree that mine is not really the pronunciation which prevails.


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> ....
> Now, Anis' couplet that is quoted by Kaakorvii (and me in my earlier post) comes from (I believe) one of his marsiyas. _A marsiyah's form is that of a musaddas (a six liner) in the pattern aa, aa, bb. My feeling is that these two lines are the bb part of his six liner._
> 
> _What does all this prove? Just that in modern day Urdu speech, "sar" has almost wholly consumed "sir" constructions even when they form part of our Classical literature*.*_ By the way, I have a dictionary on "Begumaat kii zabaan" and indeed  examples of "sir" usage abound in there too.


 Once more! _sir_ is Indic and _sar_ is Persian. Both are recognised but for  us it is always _sar_ and I've ust spoken to somebody who knows Anis'  _maraathi_ much better than I. He too prefers to change the _aaxir_ to _aaxar_ - which, btw, does exist - instead of changing the _sar_ to _sir_. Though I see  no harm as such in the latter. Sounds more like Awadhi to me though!

A long while ago I  mentioned that of all the poets, including our highly respected and  much loved Mir and Ghalib, Anis had not only the widest vocabulary he  would also bring in local words, i.e. Awadhi words in his case too into  his poetry either because he liked them or wished to preserve or even  revive them. When it comes to the question here (_sar_ or _sir_) many of us being creatures of habit might go for one or the other. _We go for 'sar' and from just a small sample I gave above Anis too much preferred 'sar' to 'sir'. Since then I've found even more and all would be sar. In that case Anis himself played a vital role in the death of 'sir'. His 'sar's are everywhere! Perhaps thanks to the likes of him and other poets of lakhnau like dabir, miir 3ishq, miir ta3ashshuq, mirza auj etc. we've ended up with 'sar'!
_
Poetry in many (I guess most ) languages tends to follow standard speech but not always. I've this very moment Laurence Olivier's  performance as Hamlet in mind where he pronounces some words  differently depending on what impact he wished to create. Others playing  the same role didn't follow... and we don't have to follow our poets always.

_BTW, allow me to correct your generalized statement! There is no rule which says that a marthiya has to be in musaddas form! In fact the first ones (in the Deccan by 3aadil shaah, the ruler of Bijapur and recognised as the first urdu-marthiya-go) were entirely muthallas, then we got murabba3 and  muxammas. The musaddas form is late. Of course the poets I mention above made this form the favoured one. You can thank these lakhnavii poets for that and for adding drama to Urdu poetry._


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> Once more! _sir_ is Indic and _sar_ is Persian. Both are recognised but for  us it is always _sar_ and I've ust spoken to somebody who knows Anis'  _maraathi_ much better than I. He too prefers to change the _aaxir_ to _aaxar_ - which, btw, does exist - instead of changing the _sar_ to _sir_. Though I see  no harm as such in the latter. Sounds more like Awadhi to me though!
> 
> A long while ago I  mentioned that of all the poets, including our highly respected and  much loved Mir and Ghalib, Anis had not only the widest vocabulary he  would also bring in local words, i.e. Awadhi words in his case too into  his poetry either because he liked them or wished to preserve or even  revive them. When it comes to the question here (_sar_ or _sir_) many of us being creatures of habit might go for one or the other. _We go for 'sar' and from just a small sample I gave above Anis too much preferred 'sar' to 'sir'. Since then I've found even more and all would be sar. In that case Anis himself played a vital role in the death of 'sir'. His 'sar's are everywhere! Perhaps thanks to the likes of him and other poets of lakhnau like dabir, miir 3ishq, miir ta3ashshuq, mirza auj etc. we've ended up with 'sar'!
> 
> _Poetry in many (I guess most ) languages tends to follow standard speech but not always. I've this very moment Laurence Olivier's performance as Hamlet in mind where he pronounces some words differently depending on what impact he wished to create. Others playing the same role didn't follow... and we don't have to follow our poets always.
> 
> _BTW, allow me to correct your generalized statement! There is no rule which says that a marthiya has to be in musaddas form! In fact the first ones (in the Deccan by 3aadil shaah, the ruler of Bijapur and recognised as the first urdu-marthiya-go) were entirely muthallas, then we got murabba3 and  muxammas. The musaddas form is late. Of course the poets I mention above made this form the favoured one. You can thank these lakhnavii poets for that and for adding drama to Urdu poetry._



Thank you Faylasoof SaaHib. Would your friend change "maahir" to "maahar" to avoid reading "sir" in DaaGh's couplet?

dekhte hii shakl raaz-i-dil se maah*i*r ho ga'e
phir vuh nah Taale Tale jis baat ke s*i*r ho ga'e

Remember, we are talking about a poet who has said..

Urdu hai jis kaa naam hamiiN jaante haiN daaGh
saare jahaaN meN dhuum hamaarii zabaaN kii hai

Indeed we don't have to follow our poets because they have certain constraints placed upon them of rhyme etc. A poet wishing to find words rhyming with "sir" would be faced with a formidable problem. OK, we can have the imperatives of verbs such as phir, gir, chir..but these are very few compared with mar, kar, dhar, char, Dar etc. Even if, as DaaGh has done, one uses the Arabic active participle (maahir, zaahir, saaHir), there is much more latitude for rhyming "sar" with nouns of Indic, Persian and Arabic origins than there is for using "sir". So, Anis did not really play any part in "sir"'s downfall. He, like DaaGh, has incorporated it where he was able to. 

"najmu_lamsaal" compiled by Maulavii Muhammad Najamuddin SaaHib and published in 1882 has numerous examples of "sir" as in "sir kaa bojh paa'oN par paRtaa hai". A later work "luGhaatu_nnisaa' " by Maulavii Sayyid Ahmad Dihlavii" (1917) likewise has many "sir" entries. His book is described in the following words..

"dehlii kii begamoN, qil3ah-i-mu3allah kii shahzaadiyoN, shariif musalmaan aur hinduu xaatuunoN, zanaanah darsii kitaaboN ?? 4071 luGhaat, muHaavaraat, istilaaHaat aur zarbu_lamsaal kaa be-naziir majmuu3ah". The learned compiler has been assisted in his endeavours by Nizaam Miir Usman Ali Khan (Deccan) and Sultan Jahan Begam (Bhopal).

Regarding "marsiyah" having or having had other forms in Urdu poetry, that was not my point. My point was simply this. In the quoted example, which we know is a couplet of Anis's, if it is from a marsiyah (which is the most likely scenario), it would have formed lines 5 and 6. Why? Because in the 6 liner marsiyah, lines 5 and 6 are are not of the same rhyme scheme as lines 1-4.

There is no doubt that "sar" is the norm now days but "sir" was (and may still be in places) part and parcel of spoken and literary Urdu language.


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> Thank you Faylasoof SaaHib. _Would your friend change "maahir" to "maahar" to avoid reading "sir" in DaaGh's couplet?_
> 
> dekhte hii shakl raaz-i-dil se maah*i*r ho ga'e
> phir vuh nah Taale Tale jis baat ke s*i*r ho ga'e
> 
> Remember, we are talking about a poet who has said..
> 
> Urdu hai jis kaa naam hamiiN jaante haiN daaGh
> saare jahaaN meN dhuum hamaarii zabaaN kii hai
> 
> Indeed we don't have to follow our poets because they have certain constraints placed upon them of rhyme etc. A poet wishing to find words rhyming with "sir" would be faced with a formidable problem. OK, we can have the imperatives of verbs such as phir, gir, chir..but these are very few compared with mar, kar, dhar, char, Dar etc. Even if, as DaaGh has done, one uses the Arabic active participle (maahir, zaahir, saaHir), there is much more latitude for rhyming "sar" with nouns of Indic, Persian and Arabic origins than there is for using "sir". _S__o, Anis did not really play any part in "sir"'s downfall. He, like DaaGh, has incorporated it where he was able to._
> 
> "najmu_lamsaal" compiled by Maulavii Muhammad Najamuddin SaaHib and published in 1882 has numerous examples of "sir" as in "sir kaa bojh paa'oN par paRtaa hai". A later work "luGhaatu_nnisaa' " by Maulavii Sayyid Ahmad Dihlavii" (1917) likewise has many "sir" entries. His book is described in the following words..
> 
> "dehlii kii begamoN, qil3ah-i-mu3allah kii shahzaadiyoN, shariif musalmaan aur hinduu xaatuunoN, zanaanah darsii kitaaboN ?? 4071 luGhaat, muHaavaraat, istilaaHaat aur zarbu_lamsaal kaa be-naziir majmuu3ah". The learned compiler has been assisted in his endeavours by Nizaam Miir Usman Ali Khan (Deccan) and Sultan Jahan Begam (Bhopal).
> 
> Regarding "marsiyah" having or having had other forms in Urdu poetry, that was not my point. My point was simply this. In the quoted example, which we know is a couplet of Anis's, if it is from a marsiyah (which is the most likely scenario), it would have formed lines 5 and 6. Why? Because in the 6 liner marsiyah, lines 5 and 6 are are not of the same rhyme scheme as lines 1-4.
> 
> *There is no doubt that "sar" is the norm now days but "sir" was (and may still be in places) part and parcel of spoken and literary Urdu language.*


 
QPSaaHib, I can only repeat what I said earlier:



Faylasoof said:


> Once more! _sir_ is Indic and _sar_ is Persian. Both are recognised but for us it is always _sar_ and I've just spoken to somebody who knows Anis' _maraathi_ much better than I. He too prefers to change the _aaxir_ to _aaxar_ - which, btw, does exist - instead of changing the _sar_ to _sir_. Though I see no harm as such in the latter. *Sounds more like Awadhi to me though*!_ ._


 For us, use of _sir_ is more Awadhi than Urdu, certainly not our Urdu. I grew up hearing _sir_ from my _xidmatgaaraan_. 

But I say it can and has been used. I didn’t say anything about DaaGh! Since you mentioned Anis’ verse I thought I’d clarify. Those who use it as evidence that he did mean _sir_ and not _sar_ should know that the opposite argument is at least just as valid. Please remember I’m talking of Anis… and it is not just one person I’ve discussed this with. They all happen to be _lakhnavii_s so you could say they are “biased” But then Anis was a _lakhanvii_ poet. All these persons are saying that as far as this verse (of _aniis_ not _daaGh_, not _miir _or _muSHafii _etc_._), they always read it as _sar_ and _aaxar_. This is not to say that _sir_ is an issue per se. Just some poets are unlikely to have used it according to the arguments that have been put to me. 

It is a matter of speculation of course but Anis, Dabir, Auj, _3uruuj_ (from Anis’ progeny), _3ishq_, _ta3ashshuq_, all had a huge impact on _lakhnavii _Urdu and they could well have helped in the demise of _sir_! At least in _lakhnaavii_ speech. In there times _marthiya-nigaarii_ was at its peak and people started using new words or those revived by these poets. Equally, they abandoned others. I’ve asked my colleagues if they can look through the works of these poets and find examples of _sir _- with the right rhyme to be sure as convincing examples. From the top of their head they couldn’t come up with a _sir_ example – all were _sar_. But let us wait and see. 

I understand what you say about _marthiyah_ and _musaddas_. I thought I should clarify for the benefit of others. However, there is nothing to stop such a verse occurring in a _muxammas_ or a _murabba3_ form of _marthiyah _ either. This is all I meant. Both Anis and Dabir developed the _musaddas _form to the extent that it has come to dominate all others.

The word _sir_ is still used by Urduphones in some parts but we have come to associate it more with Awadhi than Urdu. It’ll be interesting to find out when we had this shift, at least in the East.


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## nineth

I use both in spoken, but sir in writing. While speaking, if I need to place stress on it, I end up using 'sir' - perhaps just because it's easier to phonetically emphasize 'sir' than 'sar'.


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## Qureshpor

Continuing with this thread, do you use the word "سرھانے" as "sarhaane"  or "sirhaane"?


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## littlepond

In my Hindi, I use both "sar" and "sir" but only "sirhaane" (loosely "siraane" as well, to lighten the word).


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## MonsieurGonzalito

It is interesting that _sar-farosh, sar-faroshii,_ where the "_faroshii_" part suggests a Persian origin, use "_sar_", not "_sir_".

_sar-faroshii kii shamaa dil meN jalaa lo yaaro, yaaro, yaaro, yaaro!_
(from the Indian 1999 movie _sar-farosh)_


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## littlepond

MonsieurGonzalito said:


> It is interesting that _sar-farosh, sar-faroshii,_ where the "_faroshii_" part suggests a Persian origin, use "_sar_", not "_sir_".



Yes, mostly. Though a south Indian film was dubbed into Hindi a few years back, with the Hindi title being kept as "_एक सिरफरोश द ब्रेव हार्ट._"


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## fdb

As others have noted, sar is Persian but sir is Indian, ultimately from Sanskrit śira. But it should be mentioned that both are Indo-Iranian cognates.


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## aevynn

Here are two she3rs from a ghazal of Abroo's that appear to add another item to @Qureshpor jii's list in #34 ---




bosaaN labaaN seN dene kahaa kah(h)_ke *phir* gayaa
pyaalaa bharaa sharaab kaa afsos *gir* gayaa

mushkil hai teG-e-bhauN ke ishaare kaa buujhnaa
paayaa ye(h) bhed tab ki(h) jab 3aashiq kaa *sir* gayaa

If I've read all of this correctly (and please do correct me if I've messed up! ), it appears that it must be _sir_ rather than _sar_ in order for the rhyme to match.

Extra observations:

(1) Observe the spelling on پیالا with a word-final _alif_. Also, for metrical reasons, پیالا must be scanned with as two syllables (=x) rather than three (-=x). I believe the meter of this ghazal is again _muzaari3 musamman axrab makfuuf maHzuuf_ (==-=-=--==-=-=).
(2) It seems like Abroo omits a _ko_ in the first line -- bosaaN labaaN seN dene (ko) kahaa, kah(h)_ke phir gayaa. I expect most modern speakers would not omit this _ko_.
(3) I think _teG-e-bhauN_ is "eyebrows like scimitars," ie, an _izaafat-e-tashbiihii_ (a useful term I learned from @Qureshpor jii!) that links the Persian-origin _teG_ with the Indic-origin _bhauN_.


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## Qureshpor

Qureshpor said:


> Continuing with this thread, do you use the word "سرھانے" as "sarhaane" or "sirhaane"?


aevynn SaaHib, any views?


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## aevynn

sar and sir are in fairly free alternation for me, but I would probably say sirhaane.


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## Qureshpor

aevynn said:


> If I've read all of this correctly (and please do correct me if I've messed up! ), it appears that it must be _sir_ rather than _sar_ in order for the rhyme to match.


This is correct as "phir" and "gir" rhyme with "sir".



aevynn said:


> 1) Observe the spelling on پیالا with a word-final _alif_.


A misra3 of a Ghazal ending in the word مرا for example could be rhymed with ذرہ but written as ذرا for aesthetic reasons. مرا and ذرہ are metrically equivalent. In this example bosah > bosaa, piyaalah > piyaalaa to match paayaa.



aevynn said:


> (2) It seems like Abroo omits a _ko_ in the first line -- bosaaN labaaN seN dene (ko) kahaa, kah(h)_ke phir gayaa. I expect most modern speakers would not omit this _ko_.


Not always. ایونّ صاحب وہ کام کرنے گئے لیکن کر نہ سکے۔



aevynn said:


> (3) I think _teG-e-bhauN_ is "eyebrows like scimitars


...eyebrows that are swords.


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## Qureshpor

aevynn said:


> sar and sir are in fairly free alternation for me, but I would probably say sirhaane.


Why probably?


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