# Is magic religiously offensive to Christians?



## .   1

I seek facts from Christians and opinions from non Christians.

How is it possible for a Christian person to be offended at a religious level by magic tricks?

.,,


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## vachecow

I don't think they could be, unless the trick somehow went against a belief that they held or somehow caused them to sin.


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## Poetic Device

1 Samuel, 15:23


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## vachecow

To clarify:
_The sin of black magic is rebellion. Wickedness and idolatry are arrogance. Because you rejected the word of the LORD, he rejects you as king. 
1 Samuel 15:23_

.,, was talking about magic tricks, not witchcraft.


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## geve

Poetic Device said:


> 1 Samuel, 15:23


Could you please elaborate? How is it answering the question "_How is it possible for a Christian person to be offended at a religious level by magic tricks_"?

My parents baptized me and took me to mass. 
They also offered me a magic box and attended my astounding magic shows. 
I grew up an atheistic untalented magician, but it left me with the conviction that Christians could take the sight of a wand.


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## Poetic Device

vachecow said:


> The sin of black magic is rebellion. Wickedness and idolatry are arrogance. Because you rejected the word of the LORD, he rejects you as king.
> 1 Samuel 15:23
> 
> He was talking about magic tricks, not witchcraft.


 
Aren't they in the same category?  I was raised in a Jewish home and was brought up to think so...  Please explain.  (I am not being snide or trying to be an ass.  I am being honest.)


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## vachecow

I see witchcraft as "real magic."  It doesn't have a trick.  (If it is possible)  

I don't believe that the Bible says that there is anything wrong with simple card tricks.


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## geve

the Bible said:


> The sin of black magic is rebellion.


Now that you mention it, the plastic wand I had when I was a kid, and in which a flower was hidden (you just had to push a button), was black indeed.


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## silvester

I don't think that magic tricks are offesive to christians, "black magic" is but not magic tricks.  At least that's my opinion.


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## vachecow

Thats what I was saying.....stuff like that shouldn't offend anyone.


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## danielfranco

Wasn't the Bible verse talking about a specific instance of magic? I think it was when King Saul was told to forgo the oracle and he insisted in knowing the future and went to see a witch. Whether the witch indeed was magical doesn't say, I think, but the main point was the disobedience of Saul and that's why he lost favor and David had a chance...
Or something like that.
What I'm saying is that there's a wider context to that particular verse, is all...


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## ampurdan

Poetic Device said:


> Aren't they in the same category?  I was raised in a Jewish home and was brought up to think so...  Please explain.  (I am not being snide or trying to be an ass.  I am being honest.)



Excuse my ignorance, are you really saying that illusionism (such as tricks with cards, hats, rabbits, sleeves, flowers, etc.) is inmoral for Jews? It's quite startling for me.


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## 94kittycat

As a Christian, I don't find magic _offensive_, exactly. But I do think it's wrong, because the Bible specifically says it is.

ampurdan, I don't think that simple card tricks are offensive to Jews. But then again, I'm not a Jew, so I could be mistaken!


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## Poetic Device

vachecow said:


> Thats what I was saying.....stuff like that shouldn't offend anyone.


 

I think that it also depends on the level of religion.  What does not offend a Roman Catholic may very well offend an Amish or Hassidic Jew.​


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## Poetic Device

ampurdan said:


> Excuse my ignorance, are you really saying that illusionism (such as tricks with cards, hats, rabbits, sleeves, flowers, etc.) is inmoral for Jews? It's quite startling for me.


 

There is nothing to excuse or apologise for.  I have sent you a PM as an explanation.   ​


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## faranji

Deuteronomy 18...

_There shall not be found with thee any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, one that useth divination, one that practiseth augury, or an enchanter, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a consulter with a familiar spirit, or a wizard, or a necromancer._

_For whosoever doeth these things is an abomination unto Jehovah: and because of these abominations Jehovah thy God doth drive them out from before thee._


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## vachecow

I believe thats the American Standard Version.

However, I don't think making a flower coming out of your sleeve is in the same category as 
_one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, one that useth divination, one that practiseth augury, or an enchanter, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a consulter with a familiar spirit, or a wizard, or a necromancer._


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## Josh_

I cannot speak for Christians in general, but to me it would seem that simple magic tricks, such as found at a magic show, would not be considered offensive because they are not really "magic", but rather just prestidigitation -- using clever movements in order to give the illusion of magic.  No laws of physics are actually  being broken and no spells are being cast.

So called black magic or magic that requires incantations, casting of spells, the conjuring of spirits (evil or otherwise), etc., and supposedly bypasses the laws of physics, in order to achieve some desired effect are offensive to Christians.  No judgment intended, but for informational purposes only, I used to post on a Christian forum and the discussion of the Harry Potter books came up on a few occasions and the majority of the Christian posters believed these books to be (at least) bad, if not evil, as they relate the stories of a young magician casting spells, and actually forbade their children from reading them.  Some even went so far as to say these books were influenced by the Devil.

For the record, I am not a Christian nor do I believe in any form of magic.


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## faranji

Yes, it's from the AS version. 



> as they relate the stories of a young magician casting spells


 
Barring the fact that 33 could've hardly qualified as young in the year Naught, that line strikes me as a pithy and pretty accurate synopsis of the New Testament.

As for .,,'s question, I guess some Christians resent any kind of supernatural competition. They'd like to have the monopoly on all things numinous  !


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## TRG

. said:


> I seek facts from Christians and opinions from non Christians.
> 
> How is it possible for a Christian person to be offended at a religious level by magic tricks?
> 
> .,,



I don't know how, but it seems people are able to get their shorts in a bunch over just about anything these days.  That this is an important issue among Christians has somehow escaped me, so I offer my opinion (as a non-Christian) that the question is impertinent.


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## Sarah<3

I am a christian, and I am in no way offended by magic tricks. In fact, I've grown up attempting them (usually unsucessfully!) They seem perfectly innocent to me.

However, there are more traditional sects that believe that anything that promotes magic, whether real or not, is wrong by association. Thus the Harry Potter controversy.

I believe most christians today would agree that magic tricks are acceptable.


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## Poetic Device

OKay, I asked because if I use a Christain Bible I use KJV.  In any event, I think that I am understanding what everyone means when it comes to the kiddie tricks.  I said what I did because I was always taught that it is the gateway to the other stuff...  However, as far as real magic needing spells, what about those weird words that you say beforethe trick?  Isn't that a spell?


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## .   1

TRG said:


> I don't know how, but it seems people are able to get their shorts in a bunch over just about anything these days. That this is an important issue among Christians has somehow escaped me, so I offer my opinion (as a non-Christian) that the question is impertinent.


I will type slowly to ensure that I can think straight and that my message will not be misconstrued.

I challenge you!  That is a base canard!

How is my question impertinent on any level to any person at any time?

.,,


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## vachecow

Poetic Device said:


> However, as far as real magic needing spells, what about those weird words that you say beforethe trick?  Isn't that a spell?


Its just kids saying thinks that they have heard before and have no idea what it means.  I think phrases like "abracadabra" are just a joking conjurer's incantation with no force behind it, like hocus pocus and other meaningless phrases.


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## .   1

May we leave Mister Potter and his mates out of this discussion.  There is a witches discussion that may be more appropriate for that.
Mister Potter and his mates practise real black magic which is a far cry from card tricks and pulling a hare from where you sat or is that a rabbit out of your hat?

.,,


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## .   1

vachecow said:


> Its just kids saying thinks that they have heard before and have no idea what it means. I think phrases like "abracadabra" are just a joking conjurer's incantation with no force behind it, like hocus pocus and other meaningless phrases.


Open sessame is just a play on "Open says me".  Nothing magic.

.,,


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## Josh_

. said:


> Open sessame is just a play on "Open says me".  Nothing magic.
> 
> .,,


I really don't know the origin of the phrase "open sesame," but the fact that is sounds very close to "open, says me" may just be a coincidence, as it is also a direct translation of the Arabic -- "iftaH ya simsim" -- which predates the English usage.

Back to the topic though, I don't see why a Christian would be offended by magic tricks, but I guess I can understand how some may think it would lead to other forms of practicing magic, even though I think that believe is unfounded.


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## .   1

Josh Adkins said:


> I really don't know the origin of the phrase "open sesame," but the fact that is sounds very close to "open, says me" may just be a coincidence, as it is also a direct translation of the Arabic -- "iftaH ya simsim" -- which predates the English usage.


What does it mean in Arabic?

.,,


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## Josh_

. said:


> What does it mean in Arabic?
> 
> .,,


Oh, I forgot to add that.  "iftaH" just means open, "simsim" means sesame, and "ya" is just a vocative particle used when directly addressing someone (or in this case something), like the English "Oh" -- "Open, Oh sesame."


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## Kajjo

Magic is entertainment, everyone knows it is just show, trick, illusion. This is morally neutral like theatre. Of course it might be possible that a _specific trick _deals with religious motives which in turn might be religiously offending.

Witchcraft and sorcery in the bible are used to describe _real_ supernatural tricks. According to the bible, these witches and magicians are to be killed. They are not offending, though, they are perceived as threat and enemy.

Kajjo


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## geve

faranji said:


> Barring the fact that 33 could've hardly qualified as young in the year Naught, that line strikes me as a pithy and pretty accurate synopsis of the New Testament.
> 
> As for .,,'s question, I guess some Christians resent any kind of supernatural competition. They'd like to have the monopoly on all things numinous  !


I like that analysis!  The Bible should forbid the tools to rework images and videos, too, for it makes anyone virtually capable of walking on water.


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## Outsider

I can't help being reminded of Simon Magus:



> Simon Magus, also known as Simon the Sorcerer and Simon of Gitta [...] appeared prominently in several apocryphal accounts by early Christian authors, who regarded him as the first heretic.


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## curly

I don't really understand. What's the definition of 'real' magic? And also of black magic? I wouldn't have any idea how to search for that in a bible, does anyone know?


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## Kajjo

curly said:


> I don't really understand. What's the definition of 'real' magic? And also of black magic?


Magic can mean "magicians trick" as in an entertaining show. This is only an illusion and everybody knows that it is a trick. The trick only appears to be supernatural or unexplainable, because you do not know the trick the magician uses. As soon as you know the trick, everything is clearly normal.

Magic can also mean the belief that some people possess abilities exceeding those of the physical, natural world. They can do supernatural things, like Harry Potter. This is what we call _real magic_ in this thread. Real magic contradicts natural laws.

Black magic refers to real magic with a background or intention of satanic actions or actions related to the devil.

Kajjo


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## CrazyArcher

Kajjo said:


> Magic can also mean the belief that some people possess abilities exceeding those of the physical, natural world. They can do supernatural things, like Harry Potter. This is what we call _real magic_ in this thread. Real magic contradicts natural laws. I think it's better to say that it contradicts natural laws *as we understand them*
> 
> Black magic refers to real magic with a background or intention of satanic actions or actions related to the devil.
> And what if a person harms others with the power of his own will exclusively? It isn't black magic by your definition... People tend to link directly Satan with evil just because it's writting in the Bible...
> Kajjo


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## Kajjo

> I think it's better to say that it contradicts natural laws as we understand them


No, I don't think so. If we would miss some parts of nature (as we most certainly do at the current state), everything natural would still be natural. I understand magic to exceed natural laws -- both the known as well as the currently unknown laws of nature.



> And what if a person harms others with the power of his own will exclusively? It isn't black magic by your definition... People tend to link directly Satan with evil just because it's writting in the Bible...


I do not really care. Call it black magic, too, if you want. I just believe that "black magic" is _commonly associated _with devil's work. Maybe we should call all morally wrong magic _black magic._ What's the difference? It is only a kind of religious belief anyway. 

I do not belief in any kind of supernatural things, call it whatever you want. 

Kajjo


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## amnariel

CrazyArcher said:


> And what if a person harms others with the power of his own will exclusively?



How do you mean _by own will_? 


As Christian, better say Roman Catholic, I don't find magic of any kind religiously offensive personally to me. I know that many Christians find it offensive, even threatening, but my humble opinion is that if I'm confident enough in what I believe in, if my personality is strong and I do not fall under influence of everything new and strange to me, magic is in no way offensive.


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## CrazyArcher

@amnarial: I mean under _"by own will'_ being able to harm others with no connection to Satan or any other entities.

@Kajjo: I still happen to miss how you distinct between natural and supernatural. If you dont fully understand the laws, how can you tell if a certain thing exceeds them or not?


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## amnariel

CrazyArcher said:


> @amnarial: I mean under _"by own will'_ being able to harm others with no connection to Satan or any other entities.





Then your remark is off topic since _*magic*_ is always connected to something mystical, whan we don't understand, something linked to Satan, devills, ghosts, all things we are affraid of because we are not sure are they around us or not. What can a person do by own will? Kill? Kill with a spell? Spells authomatically include some kind of magic, in this case, bad, *evil *magic.


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## Kajjo

CrazyArcher said:


> @Kajjo: I still happen to miss how you distinct between natural and supernatural. If you dont fully understand the laws, how can you tell if a certain thing exceeds them or not?


You might not be able to tell the difference in every instance. But whether I or you believe in supernatural things is easy to say: It is our own belief!

I most certainly believe that there is nothing supernatural. Whatever happens has a normal explanation -- no matter whether we understand them or not. Nature is not depending on us understanding it!

Kajjo


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## .   1

CrazyArcher said:


> @Kajjo: I still happen to miss how you distinct between natural and supernatural. If you dont fully understand the laws, how can you tell if a certain thing exceeds them or not?


It's pretty simple.
If it happens it is real.
If it can only be described using imagination and faith it is supernatural.

.,,


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## curly

Kajjo said:


> Magic can mean "magicians trick" as in an entertaining show. This is only an illusion and everybody knows that it is a trick. The trick only appears to be supernatural or unexplainable, because you do not know the trick the magician uses. As soon as you know the trick, everything is clearly normal.
> 
> Magic can also mean the belief that some people possess abilities exceeding those of the physical, natural world. They can do supernatural things, like Harry Potter. This is what we call _real magic_ in this thread. Real magic contradicts natural laws.
> 
> Black magic refers to real magic with a background or intention of satanic actions or actions related to the devil.
> 
> Kajjo


 
But if magic is something exceding the natural world wouldn't christians find technology offensive? (although I suppose some religions do this)
How can anything exceed the natural world?  If it happens then it's natural isn't it?


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## .   1

amnariel said:


> Then your remark is off topic since _*magic*_ is always connected to something mystical, whan we don't understand, something linked to Satan, devills, ghosts, all things we are affraid of because we are not sure are they around us or not. What can a person do by own will? Kill? Kill with a spell? Spells authomatically include some kind of magic, in this case, bad, *evil *magic.


What is a spell?
What is evil magic?
How do you kill with a spell?
How do you link to Satan, devils and ghosts?

.,,


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## xrayspex

*Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.* 
-Arthur C. Clarke


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## Athaulf

xrayspex said:


> *Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.*
> -Arthur C. Clarke



This is one of those oft-repeated, but largely meaningless quotes. If you showed various modern technological gadgets to a 19th (or even 18th) century scientist, these things would probably look to him like magic at first sight. However, it would be easy to explain him the basic principles of how all this stuff works, and as soon as he started using them, he would quickly see for himself that there is nothing even remotely magical about any of  these things. 

A superstitious, unscientific mind can be easily deceived into believing that some unfamiliar technology is magic. But to claim that technology and magic can be "indistinguishable" as a matter of principle is just silly.


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## .   1

xrayspex said:


> *Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.*


Precisely.
A staff in the hands of a person trained to use a staff will disable so many fully armed warriors so quickly that to the untrained eye it looks miraculous.
A rifle in the hands of a marksman will disable so many fully armed warriors that to the same eye magic bolts must surely exist.
CO2 in solid form plus H2O in liquid form with a small sleight of hand thrown in is a witch's cauldron.
Mirrors and smoke and magnets and shades befuddle the bewilderable.
Never have so many been fooled by so few for so long for such gain.

.,,


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## faranji

To further clarifymplicate matters, let us not forget that there is magic and there is _magick_.


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## TRG

. said:


> I will type slowly to ensure that I can think straight and that my message will not be misconstrued.
> 
> I challenge you!  That is a base canard!
> 
> How is my question impertinent on any level to any person at any time?
> 
> .,,



The subtle introduction of the idea that Christians in general are somehow offended by or opposed to magic would be a canard.  I was merely expressing an opinion as you had requested.


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## .   1

. said:


> I seek facts from Christians and opinions from non Christians.
> 
> How is it possible for a Christian person to be offended at a religious level by magic tricks?
> 
> .,,


 


TRG said:


> The subtle introduction of the idea that Christians in general are somehow offended by or opposed to magic would be a canard. I was merely expressing an opinion as you had requested.


There was no subtle introduction of anything of the kind.
I was open and honest in my incredulity at such a concept.  I thought that I was a little unfair in that I was asking a basically biased question and challenging anybody to support it.
I didn't believe then and I don't believe now that Christians in general are offended in any way by magic tricks.
I believe that some cloth-eared redneck fundamentalist Christians pretend to be offended by card tricks and sleight of hand when they want to derail a discussion and I have just received confirmation of that.

.,,


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## maxiogee

xrayspex said:


> *Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.*
> -Arthur C. Clarke





Athaulf said:


> This is one of those oft-repeated, but largely meaningless quotes. If you showed various modern technological gadgets to a 19th (or even 18th) century scientist, these things would probably look to him like magic at first sight.



I disagree.
Apart from the fact that the quote implies a lack of information about the workings of the technology, the quote hinges on the 'sufficiently advanced' - and you are saying that a scientist from the period you mentioned would understand them.

That's very different from (a) an ordinary person understanding them, and (b) not allowing for as much 'advancement' as Clarke intended.


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## danielfranco

An example: imagine an alien race gave us a fully functional Cassimir engine (zero-point energy engine, if you wish). Although our scientists may have an inkling about how such a thing ought to be possible, there's simply no way they can replicate the machine. They know what it does, but not really how it does it. Not quite, but can probably figure it out eventually. That's Athaulf's scenario.
Now imagine they gave us a "warp-bubble" traveling machine, that seems to travel faster than light. And imagine they do not explain how it works, only how to make it work. For generations, human scientists would still be ignorant as to how it works, but the people that want to make it work can make it work and travel to the planets, just as long as they perform the prescribed "incantations and magic passes and magic words". Which is Clarke's scenario.

I think...

Would such a situation be offensive to Christians? It's difficult to imagine how people would not find a way to feel offended somehow, but I'm not sure...


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## winklepicker

. said:


> How is it possible for a Christian person to be offended at a religious level by magic tricks?


Some people can be offended by anything. Blasphemy? What a nonsense. If God exists (omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent) my 'taking his name in vain' is hardly likely to disturb his equilibrium any.

Thank goodness we still have here a general acknowledgment that there is no 'right not to be offended'.


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## xrayspex

_However, it would be easy to explain him the basic principles of how all this stuff works, _ 

Really.  I think you might have problems explaining quantum computing to Isaac Newton.


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## karuna

xrayspex said:


> *Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.*
> -Arthur C. Clarke





Athaulf said:


> This is one of those oft-repeated, but largely meaningless quotes.
> 
> A superstitious, unscientific mind can be easily deceived into believing that some unfamiliar technology is magic. But to claim that technology and magic can be "indistinguishable" as a matter of principle is just silly.



I don't think that by this Clarke meant that the technology cannot be explained but rather that people perceive it as something wonderful and extraordinary. Although I have been using the internet for about 10 years, I can still feel the thrill from the fact that I can instantenously communicate with people from all around the world. In other words, this technology is so great that it is even better than the magic that you can read about in fiction. 

Did you notice that most magical capabilities in fiction usually benefits only a few individuals, or only a certain class at best? This point is exactly the author's device that makes a reader to feel that these magic tricks are something special and highly desirable. But if we can make some wonderful technology and try to use it for the benefit of all people, then it is even better, even though in a short time it may seem a very ordinary thing to all. That's what I think Clarke wanted to say – that we can appreciate the wonderful things that we have today, instead of just being amused by some rare phenomena.


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## curly

xrayspex said:


> _However, it would be easy to explain him the basic principles of how all this stuff works, _
> 
> Really. I think you might have problems explaining quantum computing to Isaac Newton.


 

Why do you think that? If it can be explained to a person nowadays then it could be explained to a person like Issac Newton. All it requires is to inform him of all the things that a person who understands quantum computing knows.

I think that Clarke was using this quote a a device to make his fictional advanced species more interesting, what I take from the quote personally is that magic itself, if it exists, can be explained as rationally as other forces of nature and technology. Surely if one practises magic it is explainable, functional and perfectly rational, just a little unfamiliar. If it exists...

but that's off-topic, the question is not the nature of magic, or even whether it exists, it's *Is magic religiously offensive to Christians?* 

I think not, but I think we all agree that there's no one united group called christians, and that some christians are offended by almost anything.


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## Etcetera

. said:


> How is it possible for a Christian person to be offended at a religious level by magic tricks?


If we're speaking about tricks one can see in circus, for example, such "magic" is perfectly fine with me. 
If we're speaking about foretellers and "magicians" who promise you to help in every possible situation, of that I really disapprove. Not only because of the Bible forbidding any magic, but also because I see all this as plain cheating.


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