# FR: bien que + future idea - Even though I will have finished



## yuechu

Bonjour,

I'm trying to translate sentences from Eng to Fr using the expression "even though" in the future. Are there any cases where it is possible to use the indicative? Sometimes it is not clear that one is talking about the future when there are no clues from the context in the sentence.

Ex. "Even though I will have finished the job/my studies by then, ... "
"Even though I will be out at the time ... "

"Bien que j'aie fini le travail/mes études... "
"Bien que je sois sorti/absent... "

I find that the listener can not always determine the temporality of the subjunctive in French. Is there any way around this ?

The only similar expression which takes the indicative that I could think of is "même si", although this expression does not have the same meaning. (since it is not certain, whereas "bien que"/"even though" is certain)

Merci d'avance !


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## Mauricet

Comme il n'y a pas de subjonctif futur, le subjonctif présent est compris comme futur dans _Bien que j'aie fini mes études à ce moment-là_ (donné comme futur par le contexte) ou _Bien que je sois sorti quand il viendra_. On peut aussi dire _Même si j'aurai sûrement fini mes études à ce moment-là_ ou _Même si je serai certainement sorti quand il viendra.
_C'est vrai que sans l'adverbe ces deux dernières phrases seraient bizarres. Mais avec _sûrement_ ou _certainement_ (ou encore _à coup sûr_ ou _sans doute_) le sens est clair est c'est tout à fait idiomatique.


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## yuechu

Merci Mauricet ! C'est exactement ce que je cherchais. Bonne fin de journée !


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## lizmag

There seems to be some doubt whether "bien que" is _always_ followed by the subjunctive.  What about a phrase like: "Bien qu'ils payeront des taxes..." (there is no doubt at all that they will be paying tax)?  The original sentence in English is: "Even though they will be paying taxes, they will not benefit from social security arrangements until 2031."

I know that the "rule" tells me to always use the subjunctive after "bien que" - but that doesn't seem to be a rule that's followed by all Francophones.  Is there a growing acceptance that the language is just changing?

Can anyone help me with this?

lizmag


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## LILOIA

I'm sorry but I don't think there is a growing acceptance for "bien que + indicatif", it sounds very queer.
But you could say : "Même s'ils paient des taxes ..." or "Alors qu'ils paieront des taxes ...


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## Oubekhet

I'll go with Liloia, there is no growing acceptance for "bien que + subjunctive".
Some people however find it hard to use the subjunctive, forgot how to, or never learnt to in the first place. But it's still incorrect, and not only for the Académie!


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## itka

I've been told this happens in Quebec (in spoken French)... but *never* in France.


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## Nicomon

Itka's right. It does indeed happen in Quebec. But it doesn't mean we don't know how to use the subjunctive.  

I just don't see how you could use the subjunctive in the given example. 

According to *this page*, the rule is that_ bien que_ is *generally* followed by the subjunctive. 

The sentence to translate is : _"Even though they will be paying taxes, they will not benefit from social security arrangements until 2031."_

Since the English is future, I wouldn't translate it with present tense _Même s'ils paient_. And in my opinion, _Alors qu'ils paieront_ doesn't translate _Even though._

I honestly don't see anything wrong with _Bien qu'ils paieront/payeront..._ but that may be because I'm a queer speaking Quebecer. __
Then again, you could of course say _Même s'ils paieront/devront payer _(even if) OR_ En dépit du fait /Malgré le fait qu'ils paieront_ (despite/in spite of the fact that).

*Edit :* Incidentally... welcome to the forum, lizmag.


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## lizmag

Thank you all and thank you for your welcome, Nicomon!  I think I need to use "Malgré le fait...." because I want to stress "even though" and not "even if".  

So I now have an associated question: if I need to write a sentence in French which is about the fact that something will certainly happen in the future, it's impossible to use constructions which are followed by the subjuctive as the reader cannot tell whether I am talking about the present or the future.  "Bien qu'il voie" for example - I don't know whether that means "Even though he sees" or "Even though he will see."
Have I understood this correctly?

Thanks

lizmag


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## Maître Capello

lizmag said:


> I think I need to use "Malgré le fait...." because I want to stress "even though" and not "even if".


I don't like _malgré le fait que_ because I think it is a bit lengthy/complicated. I indeed much prefer _bien qu'ils payeront_… As you can see, I have really nothing against _bien que_ + future or conditional. (On the other hand, I would never use the indicative for present or past tenses…)


> So I now have an associated question: if I need to write a sentence in French which is about the fact that something will certainly happen in the future, it's impossible to use constructions which are followed by the subjuctive as the reader cannot tell whether I am talking about the present or the future.  "Bien qu'il voie" for example - I don't know whether that means "Even though he sees" or "Even though he will see."
> Have I understood this correctly?


 You're right, unless the context makes it clear, e.g., _bien qu'il voie son ami *demain*_…

P.S.: Welcome to the WR forums, lizmag!


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## Nicomon

Maître Capello said:


> I don't like _malgré le fait que_ because I think it is a bit lengthy/complicated. I indeed much prefer _bien qu'ils payeront_…


 I do too. I actually suggested it to show how much of a mouthful _malgré le fait_ _que_ is. Note : _pa*i*eront_ or _pa*y*eront_? I think both are right, no?


> As you can see, I have really nothing against _bien que_ + future or conditional. (On the other hand, I would never use the indicative for present or past tenses…)


 I make an effort to avoid it with present and past tenses, too. 


> You're right, unless the context makes it clear, e.g., _bien qu'il voie son ami *demain*_…


 Here again, with _demain_... I'd be more likely to say _bien qu'il verra_. But I would say _bien qu'il *ait* vu_ _son ami hier_ (not _a vu_).


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## lizmag

Thank you M. Capello.

I think that I might well end up saying "Tandis qu'ils paieront...." as it is for an exam presentation in French in France so I have play things ultra-safe.  Would an accurate English translation be "Even though they'll pay tax..."?  It appears to me that Francophones outside of France itself are a little more flexible as far as the subjunctive is concerned.


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## lizmag

Thank you Nicomon.  I'll remember to put a future indicator in next time I do battle with the subjunctive!


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## Maître Capello

lizmag said:


> I think that I might well end up saying "Tandis qu'ils paieront...."


Err… no, _tandis que_ doesn't work here…

Anyway, if you want to play it safe as you say, you should definitely say, _Même s'ils payeront…_



Nicomon said:


> Note : _pa*i*eront_ or _pa*y*eront_? I think both are right, no?


 Yes, see this link.


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## lizmag

D'accord!  Merci mille fois et pensez à moi la semaine prochaine...


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## Nicomon

Maître Capello said:


> Yes, see this link.


 Merci pour la confirmation, MC.


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