# Die Masse der Passagiere blättert sichtbar ab



## StockholmBoy

In this interesting passage, the author is describing how the passengers on board were somehow undergoing changes, putting on new personas or simply becoming less conspicuous. However, it is probably not an easy job to render the verb used here in English, as its figurative meaning might be lost in translation. I will here put the stretch of text in question, and below that my very own attempt at translating it.
If you have better ideas or corrections to make, do get in touch! It is in particular the underlined bit that I am interested in.

"_*Die Masse der Passagiere blättert sichtbar ab*_. Am Anfang der Reise suchte jeder *eine möglichst bedeutende Vorstellung von sich zu erwecken*, der er auf die Dauer nicht zu entsprechen vermag. Dafür leuchten andere, die ganz ohne Aufsehen zu erregen eintraten, langsam hervor."

A brief summary: all the passengers on board were having their masks peeled off. When the trip had started, each had tried to put on an impressive persona, which they could not have been able to keep up in the long term. Therefore, others were being brought to light without being quite as sensational.

Wonder if I managed to convey all the meaning in this case?


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## Schlabberlatz

Is it really "Masse"? Or is it "Maske"?


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## StockholmBoy

Schlabberlatz said:


> Is it really "Masse"? Or is it "Maske"?



Now that you mentioned it, it makes me wonder...whether that was a typo. But unfortunately, that's how it is written in the book!

For that reason, I translated "masse" as "all of the"... to convey an idea of a great number of people.


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## Schlabberlatz

I guess it's a typo since the "abblättern" does not seem to refer to all of the passengers. He says "Dafür leuchten andere" etc. "Dafür" here means something like "instead of", I think.


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## StockholmBoy

Schlabberlatz said:


> I guess it's a typo since the "abblättern" does not seem to refer to all of the passengers. He says "Dafür leuchten andere" etc. "Dafür" here means something like "instead of", I think.



The way I interpreted it was that the "andere" did not refer to the passengers but to what (whatever it is, masks, etc) they were shedding off. So it could be either that all of the passengers were gradually changing their attitude on board, i.e. more literally, some masks were falling but others were coming to light, OR, that some left and others stepped in but then it would be weird to explain just where those others have gone: hiding? or alighting somewhere? There is no indication that the boat has actually stopped anywhere at this stage so nobody could have left, had they wanted to. Indeed, this is a return journey and no stop-offs are on the cards. 
But i do wonder whether a German native speaker would share my views on this.


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## ABBA Stanza

StockholmBoy said:


> A brief summary: all the passengers on board were having their masks peeled off.


Maybe _"The passengers drop their mask(s)"_ would be a tad more idiomatic. 

Cheers
Abba


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## Schlabberlatz

> were coming to light


"Were beginning to shine", I'd say. "Andere" probably refers to people, not masks. You wouldn't normally say of masks that they "eintreten" / "eintraten".


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## StockholmBoy

This passage is trickier to interpret than I thought!


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## Hutschi

StockholmBoy said:


> For that reason, I translated "masse" as "all of the"... to convey an idea of a great number of people.



I would interprete it in this case "the most of the" ...
"Die Masse" in context of sets mostly means "the most of the" - here "the most of the people".

I do not understand "abblättern".
The only thing i can compare: "die Farbe blättert ab" - metaphor - 1. they become tired, 2. they become old, 3. they loose their masks part for part - you can see their inner status - their real being

In the context only 1. and 3. may fit.

I do not think that "drop their masks" really fits, because this is active handling.


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## ayuda?

I see it this way. Masks?? 
"*Die Masse der Passagiere blättert sichtbar ab*. Am Anfang der Reise suchte jeder *eine möglichst bedeutende Vorstellung von sich zu erwecken*, der er auf die Dauer nicht zu entsprechen vermag. Dafür leuchten andere, die ganz ohne Aufsehen zu erregen eintraten, langsam hervor."


The mass/crowds of passenger filed noticeably by [abblättern—like the pages of a book go by].
At the beginning of the trip everyone tried to give/make [erwecken] as distinguished/important an impression/image [Vorstellung] of himself as possible, which, in the long run, wouldn’t/didn’t quite fit [nicht zu entsprechen vermag].
For that, others slowly entered and outshined them [hervorleuchten ]without making/causing any commotion/fuss.

I think you have to be just a bit liberal with the translation because it is “tricky.” 
l Always helpful to get the opinion of a _Muttersprachler_*.*


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## Schlabberlatz

Yes, it could be "most of the passengers". But in the next sentence he says "jeder". Really tricky.

Edit: 





> like the pages of abook go by


Sounds strange to me.


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## StockholmBoy

Schlabberlatz said:


> Yes, it could be "most of the passengers". But in the next sentence he says "jeder". Really tricky.
> 
> Edit: Sounds strange to me.




In reply to a previous comment: my very first interpretation was exactly one that implied a sense of motion or of movement on the part of the passengers. But on closer inspection, I thought that could not be likely as these people are aboard a ship and, unless they decide to go hiding somewhere, I do not quite see where they might file away to. 
Also, as one commentator put it, the fact that "jeder" follows that weird-sounding "Masse" seems to suggest that "all" passengers might be involved in the "shedding" of masks. But that's just how I personally see it. 
German is definitely such a richly-layered language that translation is more often than not extremely difficult.


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## StockholmBoy

However, my last comment was probably not entirely correct. "Jeder" need not imply that all passengers were revealing new aspects of themselves. It may simply indicate that, while all of them had tried to overreach themselves by trying to appear more interesting than they really were, now "most" of them were gradually falling off the radar, as it were. Not sure that makes my meaning any clearer though. And, more importantly, not sure, once more, whether an actual German would agree to all this.


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## Schlabberlatz

I still think it could be a typo. Maybe the author doesn't mean one of those solid masks they used in the olden times. Imagine it's a mask of paint or make-up. Which becomes dry and starts to come off in flakes.


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## Hamlet2508

Schlabberlatz said:


> I still think it could be a typo. Maybe the author doesn't mean one of those solid masks they used in the olden times. Imagine it's a mask of paint or make-up. Which becomes dry and starts to come off in flakes.


I checked with the original, which has _Masse_. Still, I think you are dead on with the metaphoric use of _abblättern_.


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## Hutschi

I found the text:

http://books.google.de/books?id=D-k...e der Passagiere blättert sichtbar ab&f=false

It is a kind of diary and uses a poetical style.

At first the passengers behaved in a way to produce a good illusion of themselves.
So "abblättern" is a metaphor for desillusionating.

That is why "mask" could be working - but not for "Masse" it is for "abblättern" -> the most of  the passengers loose the mask more and more. - and they loose ressources and strength.

So even if it is a typo, the result is almost the same.

----

"die Maske blättert ab" is a common phrase, while "die Masse blättert ab" is extremely strange.

PS: "die Masse" taucht im Folgenden im Text noch oft auf, die "Maske" nirgends.


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## ayuda?

Aber jetzt das Hutschi uns auch darauf hingewiesen hat,dass in der Tat diese Idee von einer “Maske” mag wohl die beste Lösung sein. Ich wollte, wir hätten nur vorher eine ganz feste Idee vom vorangegangenenText oder dass wir wenigstens ganau wüßten dass “Maske” unbedingt  die Feststellung von der Lesung  war, weil manchmal ein einziges Wort auf deutsch ja viele Bedeutungen haben kann und lässt sich ohne den ganzen Zusammenhang nicht immer leicht übertragen —offensichtlich selbst für die Muttersprachler. Das war der Fall bei “Maske.” Was vorher und nachher kommt spielt eine sehr gößere Role im Deutschen als im Englischen. 
German is very “tricky” like that, and it seems like it will always remain as a sort of a_“Geheimsprache.”_ to _Ausl_ä_nder[s] _and a blessing to the makers of aspirin.


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## StockholmBoy

ayuda? said:


> Aber jetzt das Hutschi uns auch darauf hingewiesen hat,dass in der Tat diese Idee von einer “Maske” mag wohl die beste Lösung sein. Ich wollte, wir hätten nur vorher eine ganz feste Idee vom vorangegangenenText oder dass wir wenigstens ganau wüßten dass “Maske” unbedingt die Feststellung von der Lesung war, weil manchmal ein einziges Wort auf deutsch ja viele Bedeutungen haben kann und lässt sich ohne den ganzen Zusammenhang nicht immer leicht übertragen —offensichtlich selbst für die Muttersprachler. Das war der Fall bei “Maske.” Was vorher und nachher kommt spielt eine sehr gößere Role im Deutschen als im Englischen.
> German is very “tricky” like that, and it seems like it will always remain as a sort of a_“Geheimsprache.”_ to _Ausl_ä_nder[s] _and a blessing to the makers of aspirin.



Indeed. In any case, at no point did I think of those "masks" as anything other than a metaphor for people finally dropping their guard and showing their true colours. Shame, I can't actually put it like that in a translation. Most alternatives sound very odd and somewhat contrived in English (to put it mildly).

And in terms of awkward translations, check my very one at the beginning of this long thread: "having their masks peeled off" is certainly an example of hideous, lost-in-translation kind of English...but whether German is indeed a Geheimsprache or not, I'm going to have to get on top of this one way or another!


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## Schlabberlatz

> "die Masse" taucht im Folgenden im Text noch oft auf, die "Maske" nirgends.


That is very interesting.





> even if it is a typo, the result is almost the same.


Yes, typo or not, the result may be very similar. Perhaps the author imagines the people of "die Masse" to have some paint on, which becomes dry etc., see above.


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## StockholmBoy

Schlabberlatz said:


> That is very interesting.Yes, typo or not, the result may be very similar. Perhaps the author imagines the people of "die Masse" to have some paint on, which becomes dry etc., see above.



I personally think Jünger is having a good laugh about all that we're saying here. I have a feeling (and it's just a feeling) that perhaps this was part of a deliberate in-joke he was sharing with himself (he was an absolute genius) and himself alone. See how "die Masse" has an echo of "die Maske" and without ever mentioning anything like a mask, he uses that verb "blättert ab" that clearly implies it, almost as if we were talking about snakes shedding off their skins. 
I believe that he may have tried to operate on a subliminal level here, perhaps in order to highlight the multiple layers of meaning that can be attached to words. A very Aristotelian concept.


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## ayuda?

StockholmBoy said:


> And in terms of awkward translations, check my very one at the beginning of this long thread: "having their masks peeled off" is certainly an example of hideous, lost-in-translation kind of English...but whether German is indeed a Geheimsprache or not, I'm going to have to get on top of this one way or another!



You’ve got to give yourself credit. Your Deutsch must be very good because you only post some of “tricky” translations  that get a lot of people thinking. You had the basic idea of “Mask” and “peeling off” from the very  beginning. Somehow, I overlooked the fact that *abblättern *had a meaning resembling something like: noticeably dropped/peeled away thefaçade/mask or let the façade noticably fade away. I should have paid closer attention to your understanding of that from your reading before that point—set up and supported that question great. Hope the comment wasn’t harsh—certainly didn’t intend it to be. Sometimes you get that in a forum, unintentionally  or otherwise.


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## Hutschi

StockholmBoy said:


> Indeed. In any case, at no point did I think of those "masks" as anything other than a metaphor for people finally dropping their guard and showing their true colours. Shame, I can't actually put it like that in a translation. Most alternatives sound very odd and somewhat contrived in English (to put it mildly).




"Showing their true colours" fits good to the idiom "Die Farbe blättert ab."


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## ABBA Stanza

> Die Masse der Passagiere blättert sichtbar ab


Combining some of the ideas mentioned in previous posts, how about translating this as

_"The bulk of the passengers shed their facade noticeably"_?

Cheers
Abba


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## Hutschi

I think it sounds good.

By the way:

In our interpretation the sentence has an elliptical structure.

Die Masse der Passagiere blättert sichtbar ab.

If you take it literally it becomes:
The substance/weight of the passengers peels of in thin sections.

But this does not make much sense.

Completed it is

Die (Farbe/Oberfläche/Schale/Maske der) Masse der Passagiere blättert sichtbar ab.

The style is colloquial here, and metaphorical.

The sentence creates a kind of grammatical tension like the three impossible tubes.
http://www.google.de/imgres?client=...w=155&start=0&ndsp=12&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:0,i:88


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## Schlabberlatz

> I have a feeling (and it's just a feeling) that perhaps this was part  of a deliberate in-joke he was sharing with himself (he was an absolute  genius) and himself alone. See how "die Masse" has an echo of "die  Maske" and without ever mentioning anything like a mask, he uses that  verb "blättert ab" that clearly implies it


Play on words, yes, I think that's reasonable. Since "mass" and "mask" look about as similar in English as "Masse" and "Maske" in German, mightn't it be possible to do a literal translation that repeats Jünger's play on words in English?


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## StockholmBoy

Schlabberlatz said:


> Play on words, yes, I think that's reasonable. Since "mass" and "mask" look about as similar in English as "Masse" and "Maske" in German, mightn't it be possible to do a literal translation that repeats Jünger's play on words in English?[/QUOTE
> 
> My God. I'm so grateful to all of you for your interesting contributions. They had the very desirable effect of setting my "creative juices" flowing.


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## StockholmBoy

Oh it's absolutely fine. I found your comment very interesting, like all others really!


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## StockholmBoy

ayuda? said:


> You’ve got to give yourself credit. Your Deutsch must be very good because you only post some of “tricky” translations that get a lot of people thinking. You had the basic idea of “Mask” and “peeling off” from the very beginning. Somehow, I overlooked the fact that *abblättern *had a meaning resembling something like: noticeably dropped/peeled away thefaçade/mask or let the façade noticably fade away. I should have paid closer attention to your understanding of that from your reading before that point—set up and supported that question great. Hope the comment wasn’t harsh—certainly didn’t intend it to be. Sometimes you get that in a forum, unintentionally or otherwise.



Sorry, my reply to this is actually down the bottom! My bad.


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## StockholmBoy

ABBA Stanza said:


> Combining some of the ideas mentioned in previous posts, how about translating this as
> 
> _"The bulk of the passengers shed their facade noticeably"_?
> 
> Cheers
> Abba



I definitely like the term "facade" in the context, which I think is probably one of the closest to Jünger's original meaning. However, I feel a kind of tension between the abblättern of the sentence and the active verb in your translation. Maybe it's just me. What I was trying to achieve was to keep a rather "passive" sense in the action, as if to say, well, they tried their hardest to put on a front and sound more interesting than they really were but, hey, it was never going to work in the longer run and inevitably the scales fell before your eyes and you started to see them for what they really were. Although reluctant to "show their true colours", it's their true colours that do the showing. Whether one can put all this into an English translation, it remains to be seen.


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