# Origin of weekday names in European languages



## TitTornade

*Moderator note: split off this thread.
*


Walshie79 said:


> Do French people see the connection between "lundi" and "lune" without being told about it? Like "month" and "moon" they have different vowel sounds, and the French for Sunday isn't derived from the word for "sun".


 
Hi,
I think the connections between the name of the days and the 6 planets/moon visible from the earth is not seen by French people... unless you learn it at school. I think it is now quite common to learn these connections at primary school :
Lune (Moon) -> lundi
Mars -> mardi
Mercure (Mercury) -> mercredi
Jupiter -> jeudi
Vénus (Venus) -> vendredi

Saturne (actually Sabbath...) -> samedi
Dimanche being the Lord's day


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## Walshie79

TitTornade said:


> Hi,
> I think the connections between the name of the days and the 6 planets/moon visible from the earth is not seen by French people... unless you learn it at school. I think it is now quite common to learn these connections at primary school :
> Lune (Moon) -> lundi
> Mars -> mardi
> Mercure (Mercury) -> mercredi
> Jupiter -> jeudi
> Vénus (Venus) -> vendredi
> 
> Saturne (actually Sabbath...) -> samedi
> Dimanche being the Lord's day



"Samedi" and German "Samstag" are derived from "Sabbath" (not "Saturn"), but it's much less obvious than Spanish "Sabado". A late Latin form "Sabbat-", taken into both languages, changed to "Sambat-" and then "Samat-". English "Saturday" is from Saturn, as is Dutch "Zaterdag". When I first learnt French, I always connected "Vendredi" with "vendre", as though it meant "Sale day"!

In Britain we are generally taught that the other days of the week are named after "Viking gods", but that's nonsense, they're actually named after Anglo-Saxon gods. "Wednesday" is from Old English Woden, not Norse Odin; and "Tuesday" is from OE Tiw, not Norse Tyr. While Thursday and Friday do look more like the Norse words, they can be quite regularly derived from "Thunresdaeg" and "Frigedaeg" which were their names in Old English.


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## berndf

Walshie79 said:


> In Britain we are generally taught that the other days of the week are named after "Viking gods", but that's nonsense, they're actually named after Anglo-Saxon gods. "Wednesday" is from Old English Woden, not Norse Odin; and "Tuesday" is from OE Tiw, not Norse Tyr. While Thursday and Friday do look more like the Norse words, they can be quite regularly derived from "Thunresdaeg" and "Frigedaeg" which were their names in Old English.


While I entirely agree with you, it should still be noted that there is no material difference: These names are names of common Germanic gods, not specifically Anglo-Saxon or Norse ones. E.g., _Woden_ and _Odin_ are the same name; just the initial /w/ fell off in Old Norse. Also _Tiw/Tiu _(High German _Ziu_, still preserved in the Swiss German word for _Tuesday_: _Zischtig_) is the same god as _Tyr_. By the way, this word originally meant _god_ in general and not a specific one and if cognate to Latin _deus_ and Greek _Ζεύς_.


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## origumi

Are these names based on the planets, or on the gods that the planets belong to?


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## berndf

The Latin names are based on the planets' names. But the Germanic names seem to take their association from the gods and not the planets.


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## apmoy70

In Modern Greek, the weekday names don't have any link whatsoever, with the names of the planets:
Sunday-->«Κυῥιακὴ [ἡμέῥα]» (Kŭrhĭā'kē [hē'mĕrhă is omitted], Ciriaci [i'mera] in modern Greek pronunciation); Lord's day.
Monday-->«Δευτέῥα» (Deu'tĕrhă, ðef'tera in modern pronunciation); Second (day is omitted).
Tuesday-->«Τῥίτη» ('Trhītē, 'Triti in modern Greek); Third.
Wednesday-->«Τετάῥτη» (Tĕ'tārhtē, Te'tarti in modern language); Fourth.
Thursday-->«Πέμπτη» ('Pĕmptē, 'Pempti in modern pronunciation); Fifth.
Friday-->«Παῥασκευή» (Părhăskeu'ē, Parasce'vi in modern Greek pronunciation); Day of Preparation (i.e. preparation of Sabbath). In early Christian era, this day in the Greek world was named «Πῥοσάββατον» (Prhŏ'săbbātŏn), the Pre-Sabbath day.
Saturday-->«Σάββατον» ('Săbbātŏn, 'Savato in modern Greek); Sabbath.
In Ancient Greek on the other hand, the weekday names were after the god they were dedicated to (which nowadays correspond to the names of the planets):
Sunday-->«Ἡλιάς» (Hēlī'ās), the Sun's day.
Monday-->«Σεληνιάς» (Sĕlēnī'ās), the Moon's day.
Tuesday-->«Ἀῥηάς» (Arhē'ās), the Mars' day.
Wednesday-->«Ἑῥμειάς» (Hĕrhmei'ās), the Mercury's day.
Thursday-->«Διάς» (Dī'ās), the Jupiter's day.
Friday-->«Ἀφῥοδισιάς» (Apʰrhŏdīsī'ās), the Venus' day.
Saturday-->«Κῥονιάς» (Krhŏnī'ās), the Saturn's day.


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## TitTornade

Walshie79 said:


> "Samedi" and German "Samstag" are derived from "Sabbath" (not "Saturn"), but it's much less obvious than Spanish "Sabado". A late Latin form "Sabbat-", taken into both languages, changed to "Sambat-" and then "Samat-". English "Saturday" is from Saturn, as is Dutch "Zaterdag".


 
Of course, you are right.

Quelques précisions issues du CNRTL (http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/samedi), si tu lis le français :


> D'un lat. pop. *_sambati dies_ (prob. diffusé à partir de milieux chrétiens hellénisants tels que Lyon et Trèves, d'où aussi l'all. du sud _Samstag_), comp. de _dies_ « jour » et _sambati_, génitif d'un *_sambatum_, empr. au gr. σάμβατον, var. de σάββατον (_sabbat_*) att. au ive s. sous la forme Σαμβαθώ (_cf. _M. Pfister, _Einf. in die romanische Etymologie_, p. 80). Au ive s., sous l'infl. du christianisme, *_sambati dies_ s'est substitué à l'anc. _dies Saturni_ « jour de Saturne » (de même que _dies dominicus_ « jour du Seigneur, dimanche » à _dies solis_ « jour du soleil ») dont les représentants survivent en angl. _Saturday_, en néerl. _zaterdag_, dans les dial. du nord-ouest de l'Allemagne _Sater(s)tag_ ainsi qu'en bret. _disadorn_ et dans les lang. celt. (Pfister, _op. cit._, pp. 78-84). La forme _sethmedi_ (de même que _semedi_) est prob. due à l'infl. de l'a. fr. _setme, seme_ « septième » (< lat. _septimus_).


 



Walshie79 said:


> When I first learnt French, I always connected "Vendredi" with "vendre", as though it meant "Sale day"!


 

Funny connection. As a French, I never noticed that it could have such a connection between "vendre" and "vendredi"... yet, it is very evident...


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## berndf

TitTornade said:


> Funny connection. As a French, I never noticed that it could have such a connection between "vendre" and "vendredi"... yet, it is very evident...


I guess every foreigner is tempted to make this connection (like myself). By the way, we also associate _Jeudi_ with _jeu_ (_game_), do you?


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## artion

The japanese also adopted (translated to japanese) the names for Monday and Sunday. The other days are associated with the elements of Fire (Tuesd.), Water (Wedn.), Wood (Thursd.), Metal (Frid.), Earth (Sat.). But they believe in the following associations with the planets: Mars-Fire, Mercury-Water, Jupiter-Wood, Venus-Metal, Saturn-Earth.

This westernizations of days names happened in 19th c. I think.


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## artion

apmoy70 said:


> In Modern Greek, the weekday names don't have any link whatsoever, with the names of the planets:
> Sunday--> Lord's day.
> Monday--> Second (day).
> Tuesday-->Third.
> Wednesday--> Fourth.
> Thursday--> Fifth.
> Friday-->« Day of Preparation (i.e. preparation of Sabbath).
> 
> Saturday-->«Σάββατον» ('Săbbātŏn, 'Savato in modern Greek); Sabbath.


This reminds us of that thread on the possible connection between the words Sabbath and Seven.


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## TitTornade

berndf said:


> I guess every foreigner is tempted to make this connection (like myself). By the way, we also associate _Jeudi_ with _jeu_ (_game_), do you?


 
Ahaha again ! Never thought about this connection between "jeudi" and "jeu" anymore !!!
Now I'm thinking about the other names of day in french : did you connect "dimanche" with a "manche" or "mercredi" with "mer" ?


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## berndf

TitTornade said:


> Now I'm thinking about the other names of day in french : did you connect "dimanche" with a "manche" or "mercredi" with "mer" ?


No. Since it is obvious that _-di_ means _-day_, it is natural to analyse _jeudi_ and _vendredi_ as _jeu-di_ and _vendre-di_ but it is much less obvious to analyse _dimanche_ as _di-manche_ or _mercredi_ as _mer-credi_. Besides, for me as a German, the association of _*mer*credi_ and _mer_ is blocked because of the different vowel lengths.


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## Mephistofeles

Spanish case is quite similar to the apmoy's explanation.

Lunes - Luna (Moon)
Martes - Marte (Mars)
Miércoles - Mercurio (Mercury)
Jueves - Júpiter (Jupiter)
Viernes - Venus (should I...?)
Sábado - Sabbath
Domingo - Domini (Lord's day)


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## Outsider

Wikipedia's page on week-day names has some information.


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## Maroseika

*Russian:*

Monday - *понедельник *- lit. 'next after Sunday'. Old Russian name for Sunday was _неделя _which now means 'week' and literally - 'no job' (cf. Latin _feria _and f_eria secunda_)
Tuesday - *вторник *(second)
Wednesday - *среда *(middle) (calque of German _mittawëcha_, cf. _Mittwoch_) 
Thursday - *четверг *(fourth) 
Friday - *пятница *(fifth)
Saturday - *суббота *(< *σάμβατον) 
Sunday - *воскресенье *(resurrection)


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## Outsider

berndf said:


> [...] it is much less obvious to analyse _dimanche_ as _di-manche_ or _mercredi_ as _mer-credi_.


Did you mean _mercre-di_? 



berndf said:


> Besides, for me as a German, the association of _*mer*credi_ and _mer_ is blocked because of the different vowel lengths.


So you hear a difference in length between the vowels in _m*e*rcredi_ and _m*e*r_? That's interesting! Which one is long?



berndf said:


> The Latin names are based on the planets' names. But the Germanic names seem to take their association from the gods and not the planets.


How can we tell the difference? Weren't the names of the planets the same as the names of the gods?


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## Maroseika

*Ossetian*

Monday - *къуырисæр *(head of a week)
Tuesday - *дыццæг *(second)
Wednesday - *æртыццæг *(third)
Thursday - *цыппæрæм *(fourth) 
Friday - *майрæмбон *- day of Mariam (< Virgin Mary). This is pre-Christian tradition, cf. Latin _dies Veneris_, German _Freitag _(Freia).
Saturday - *сабат *(< *σάμβατον)
Sunday - *хуыцаубон *(day of God)

Week - къуыр < Georgian _kvira _< Greek κυριακή (day of God).


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## berndf

Outsider said:


> Did you mean _mercre-di_?


If you wanted to associate_ mercredi_ with _mer_ you'd have to analyse it as _mer-credi_. 



Outsider said:


> So you hear a difference in length between the vowels in _m*e*rcredi_ and _m*e*r_? That's interesting! Which one is long?


In _mer_ it is longer than in _mercredi_.


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## CapnPrep

berndf said:


> Besides, for me as a German, the association of _*mer*credi_ and _mer_ is blocked because of the different vowel lengths.


Do you also have difficulty associating _Mer du Nord_ or _Mer Égée_ and _mer_ because of the different vowel lengths? As a German you should be able to cope with interactions between stress and vowel length… 

For a French speaker, the first syllable of _mercredi_ sounds just like like _mer_, but this association is blocked because it doesn't make any sense. More generally, it is *not* obvious that "_-di_ means _-day_", so it would not occur to the average speaker to decompose the names of the days of the week in French, except as a conscious play on words (e.g. _Jeudi je dis jeux_).


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## berndf

CapnPrep said:


> Do you also have difficulty associating _Mer du Nord_ or _Mer Égée_ and _mer_ because of the different vowel lengths? As a German you should be able to cope with interactions between stress and vowel length…


I don't think, we were talking of that. Intuitive associations don't work that way. Of course, the /ɛ/ in _Mer du Nord_ is different for that in _mer_ alone but I wouldn't be thinking of that when comparing _mercredi_ and _mer_. -- Except if I had reason to think of a _mer cre_.



CapnPrep said:


> For a French speaker,...


Sure, the association of a French speaker works differently. Otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.


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## Ihsiin

Outsider said:


> How can we tell the difference? Weren't the names of the planets the same as the names of the gods?



I believe that, while in the Roman tradition gods were associated with celestial bodies and the planet-gods gave their names to the days of the week (a tradition originating in Mesopotamia), this is association did not exist in the Germanic tradition (I'm no expert on this, however, please correct me if I'm wrong). Therefore, the days of the week English and other Germanic languages came to be named after the Germanic analogue of the Greco-Roman deities:

Sunday and Monday are fairly obvious translations of "dies solis" and "dies lunae" respectively.
Tuesday is after Tiw, the god of war, to compare with Mars.
Wednesday after Woden, psycho-pomp, to compare with Mercury.
Thursday after Thunor, god of thunder, to compare with Jupiter (that is to say, Jove).
Friday after Frige, goddess of love (at a stretch), to compare with Venus.
And Saturday, well, they ran out of analogue deities so they just kept it as Saturn's day.


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## berndf

Ihsiin said:


> this is association did not exist in the Germanic tradition


Exactly.


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## Ben Jamin

apmoy70 said:


> Sunday-->«Κυῥιακὴ [ἡμέῥα]» (Kŭrhĭā'kē [hē'mĕrhă is omitted], Ciriaci [i'mera] in modern Greek pronunciation); Lord's day.
> Monday-->«Δευτέῥα» (Deu'tĕrhă, ðef'tera in modern pronunciation); Second (day is omitted).
> Tuesday-->«Τῥίτη» ('Trhītē, 'Triti in modern Greek); Third.
> Wednesday-->«Τετάῥτη» (Tĕ'tārhtē, Te'tarti in modern language); Fourth.
> Thursday-->«Πέμπτη» ('Pĕmptē, 'Pempti in modern pronunciation); Fifth.
> Friday-->«Παῥασκευή» (Părhăskeu'ē, Paras*k*e'vi in modern Greek pronunciation); Day of Preparation (i.e. preparation of Sabbath).
> In early Christian era, this day in the Greek world was named


 
This Chistian system has been attempted made obligatory also in the Western Roman Empire, but was finally adapted in its pure form only in Portuguese. The most striking difference from the Greek system is that Friday is called sixth day).

In the Slavic languages the Christian system is modified. Monday is the first day, and Sunday the seventh. The name for Monday means 'the day after Sunday' and for Wednesday (third day) has been replaced by a name meaning "the middle of the week" (środa in Polish, sreda in Russian). German did the same with Wednesday (Mittwoch), but kept the old Germanic gods for the other days. Finninsh has the same system as German, with Wednesday being called Keskiviikko. Sunday in the Slavic languages (except Russian) is called 'a day of doing nothing' (nedela, nedelja, niedziela). In Russian it is called 'voskresyeniye' (resurrection).
Calling Wedensdy the middle of the week is also quite inconsistent with the numbering of the other days.


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## effeundici

Serbian:

Nedelja : it means week but Sunday too
Ponedeljak : after Sunday, I guess
Utorak : Tuesday; I don't know
Sreda : Wednesday medium, in the middle
Cetvrtak : Thursday, the fourth (cetiri means four)
Petak : Friday the fifth, pet means five
Subota: It seems the same as all other languages

I'm not Serbian; maybe I made some mistakes


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## koniecswiata

The whole system of gods/planets that we find in English, French, Spanish, Old Greek, etc... has its origin in Mesopotamia.  Apparently, since they invented the 7 day week system, they also asigned gods and planets to these gods to these days.  So Monday was for the moon, Sunday for the sun, etc... This was then just calqued into Greek, then Latin, then Germanic languages, and possibly other languages in Europe.
With Christianity, an attempt was made at eliminating this system, to replace it with a...possibly "blander" number day system (1st day, 2nd day, midweek, etc...).  This worked in the case of Portuguese, Greek, and Slavic languages--also German in the case of Wednesday.


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## berndf

koniecswiata said:


> With Christianity, an attempt was made at eliminating this system, to replace it with a...possibly "blander" number day system (1st day, 2nd day, midweek, etc...). This worked in the case of Portuguese, Greek, and Slavic languages--also German in the case of Wednesday.


Well, the Christian Greek system





apmoy70 said:


> Sunday-->«Κυῥιακὴ [ἡμέῥα]» (Kŭrhĭā'kē [hē'mĕrhă is omitted], Ciriaci [i'mera] in modern Greek pronunciation); Lord's day.
> Monday-->«Δευτέῥα» (Deu'tĕrhă, ðef'tera in modern pronunciation); Second (day is omitted).
> Tuesday-->«Τῥίτη» ('Trhītē, 'Triti in modern Greek); Third.
> Wednesday-->«Τετάῥτη» (Tĕ'tārhtē, Te'tarti in modern language); Fourth.
> Thursday-->«Πέμπτη» ('Pĕmptē, 'Pempti in modern pronunciation); Fifth.
> Friday-->«Παῥασκευή» (Părhăskeu'ē, Parasce'vi in modern Greek pronunciation); Day of Preparation (i.e. preparation of Sabbath).


is taken from Jewish tradition and is not at all a Christian invention as an "elimination" of the old system. The differences to the Hebrew system of weekday names are Friday and Sunday. The Hebrew word for Friday is יום שישי (_yom sheeshee = sixth day_). The Greek name (Παῥασκευή) was used by Hellenistic Jews (like St. Paul); it isn't a Christian invention either.

Only the name for Sunday is obviously a Christan change which doesn't need any explanation; in Hebrew it is יום ראשון (_yom reeshon = first day_).


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## koniecswiata

Yes, the Christian system may have been based on the Hebrew, but there was a movement in the Church in the early Middle Ages to eliminate vestiges of paganism when possible--of course it was probably done haphazardly.  The attempt to get rid of the Roman/Greek/German/etc... system (actually Mesopotamian) was part of that drive to eliminate these vestiges, or repackage them whenever possible (Saints instead of local gods, etc...).  Obviously Christianity is an "offshoot" of Judaism--so the connection with Hebrew is quite self-evident.


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## berndf

koniecswiata said:


> The attempt to get rid of the Roman/Greek/German/etc... system (*actually Mesopotamian*) was part of that drive to eliminate these vestiges, or repackage them whenever possible (Saints instead of local gods, etc...).


Really? The Greek system of planet names as weekday names isn't attested before the late 2nd century *A.D.*, i.e. is *younger *than the Hebrew/Christian one. Do you know any sources which show that weekdays where named by planet names in Sumerian, Akkadian or Aramaic? I don't. To my knowledge, the Babylonians also numbered the days from where the Hebrew names are derived.


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## koniecswiata

I read a book a few years ago about the topic.  I don't have it lying in front of me.  It was published in Poland in the mid/late 90s.  It was a book called something like "Comparisons of weekday names in IndoEuropean languages."  I will try to remember to reference it in a next post.  The book clearly stated that the weekday names wer e based on Babylonian cosmogeny.


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## berndf

koniecswiata said:


> The book clearly stated that the weekday names wer e *based on* Babylonian cosmogeny.


Yes, that is an explanation you read everywhere. But this is an *modern* connection of Babylonian astrology and Hellenistic weekday names. I nowhere read that the Babylonians *themselves *ever connected planets and weekday names.

But if you find the book, keep me posted. Maybe it is just my ignorance and there was a link.


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## Ben Jamin

Serbian:

Nedelja : "no work day" 
Ponedeljak : the day after Synday
Utorak : second day of the week
Sreda : middle of the week
Cetvrtak : the fourth day of the week
Petak : the fifth day of the week
Subota: from Sabbat


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## Ben Jamin

berndf said:


> Really? The Greek system of planet names as weekday names isn't attested before the late 2nd century *A.D.*, i.e. is *younger *than the Hebrew/Christian one. Do you know any sources which show that weekdays where named by planet names in Sumerian, Akkadian or Aramaic? I don't. To my knowledge, the Babylonians also numbered the days from where the Hebrew names are derived.


 
Was there a Christian system of week names older than from the times of Constantine the Great?


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## Ben Jamin

berndf said:


> Well, the Christian Greek systemis taken from Jewish tradition and is not at all a Christian invention as an "elimination" of the old system. The differences to the Hebrew system of weekday names are Friday and Sunday. The Hebrew word for Friday is יום שישי (_yom sheeshee = sixth day_). The Greek name (Παῥασκευή) was used by Hellenistic Jews (like St. Paul); it isn't a Christian invention either.
> 
> Only the name for Sunday is obviously a Christan change which doesn't need any explanation; in Hebrew it is יום ראשון (_yom reeshon = first day_).


 
Here is an excerpt form French Wikipedia:

En Occident, l'emploi du découpage en semaines date seulement du IIIe siècle. L'adoption du dimanche chrétien comme jour de repos, a été institué pour se différencier des juifs, et officialisé par un décret de l'empereur Constantin Ier en 321[7],[8].
Des tentatives de suppression des références aux divinités antiques par le pape Sylvestre Ier à l'époque de Constantin sont avérées ; il proposa de ne garder que le dimanche (en latin "dies Dominicus" signifiant jour du Seigneur) et le samedi (sabbat) puis de numéroter les jours (_feria prima, feria secunda_...)[3]. La réforme échoua mais fut reprise à son compte par l'évêque de Braga au Portugal au VIe siècle qui déplorait que les jours étaient consacrés à des divinités païennes[9]. Ultérieurement, les autorités ecclésiastiques proposèrent la nomenclature suivante : « jour de la lumière » (_Luminis dies_) pour lundi, « jour des martyrs » (_Martyrium dies_) pour mardi, « jour de l'Église immaculée » (_Merae ecclesiae dies_) pour mercredi, "jour du saint sacrement" (_Jesus dies_) pour jeudi, « jour de la passion » (_Veneranda dies_) pour vendredi, « jour du sabbat » (_sabbato dies_) pour samedi et bien sûr « jour du seigneur » (_dominica dies_) pour le dimanche. La réforme n'eut pas plus de succès. Mais le « jour du seigneur » (dimanche) réussit à se substituer au « jour du soleil » dans quelques régions européennes[10].

If this is correct then the "correction" is real, the Christian system was meant to supplant the Roman pagan system, but succeeded only in Portugal and Slavic countries (which never had had own names for the week days).


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## artion

berndf said:


> Only the name for Sunday is obviously a Christan change which doesn't need any explanation; in Hebrew it is ...


 
Not exactly. The Sunday was called so before Christianism. Martyr Justinus (114-165 AD) in his 2nd Apology says that "_Jesus was crucified before Sabbath, which was the Saturn day, and the next day that was the Sun (Helios, Sol) day and renamed Kyriake, was resurrected_ ...".


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## berndf

Ben Jamin said:


> Was there a Christian system of week names older than from the times of Constantine the Great?


What I meant is that the early Christians used the weekday names as used by Hellenistic Jews, with the addition of the new name for Sunday. And that is to my knowledge older than the pagan Hellenistic system. Again, it might be my ignorance. If someone could show me a pre-Hellenistic source (Sumerian, Akkadian, Aramaic, Persian, Greek or whatever) using god and/planet names as names of weekdays, I should be most interested.




Ben Jamin said:


> If this is correct then the "correction" is real, the Christian system was meant to supplant the Roman pagan system, but succeeded only in Portugal and Slavic countries (which never had had own names for the week days).


No disagreement what so ever. What I am skeptical about is the claim that the pagan Hellenistic system of weekday names is derived from a Mesopotamian source. I agree that the concept of a seven-day week as such comes from there but not the _names_ of the weekdays. My contention is that they were an invention of Hellenistic astrology.




artion said:


> Not exactly. The Sunday was called so before Christianism. Martyr Justinus (114-165 AD) in his 2nd Apology says that "_Jesus was crucified before Sabbath, which was the Saturn day, and the next day that was the Sun (Helios, Sol) day and renamed Kyriake, was resurrected_ ...".


I don't quite understand. What you are quoting there _is_ a Christian source.


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## Ben Jamin

Does anybody know the origin of the "middle of the week" name for Wednesday? Did it originate in Germany? And when?


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## berndf

Ben Jamin said:


> Does anybody know the origin of the "middle of the week" name for Wednesday? Did it originate in Germany? And when?


It is attested in Old High German as _mittauuecha _(_uu_ stands in Old High German for the semi-vowel [w]), Grimm cites Notker as earliest source.


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## TitTornade

berndf said:


> What I meant is that the early Christians used the weekday names as used by Hellenistic Jews, with the addition of the new name for Sunday. And that is to my knowledge older than the pagan Hellenistic system. Again, it might be my ignorance. If someone could show me a pre-Hellenistic source (Sumerian, Akkadian, Aramaic, Persian, Greek or whatever) using god and/planet names as names of weekdays, I should be most interested.
> 
> No disagreement what so ever. What I am skeptical about is the claim that the pagan Hellenistic system of weekday names is derived from a Mesopotamian source. I agree that the concept of a seven-day week as such comes from there but not the _names_ of the weekdays. My contention is that they were an invention of Hellenistic astrology.
> 
> I don't quite understand. What you are quoting there _is_ a Christian source.


 
Hi,
If I can speculate :
Since the humans are present on Earth (and, of course, since the creation of the solar system), it exists 7 special "stars" in the sky that moves very differently from the others and that are easily visible by looking at the sky. These "stars" are: the Sun, the Moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus, and Saturn. Besides, 7 days is approximately a quarter of a moon cycle.

I guess the humans observed these astronomical phenomenons a long time before inventing to write and then it early belonged to their religion... I can speculate that days dedicated to Gods (i.e. planets) and the weeks of 7 days are older than any trace of texts...


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## Ben Jamin

berndf said:


> It is attested in Old High German as _mittauuecha _(_uu_ stands in Old High German for the semi-vowel [w]), Grimm cites Notker as earliest source.


Can we conclude that German was the first to introduce this name?


----------



## Orlin

Ben Jamin said:


> Serbian:
> 
> Nedelja, BG неделя : "no work day"
> Ponedeljak, BG понеделник: the day after Synday
> Utorak, BG вторник: second day of the week
> Sreda, BG сряда: middle of the week
> Četvrtak, BG четвъртък: the fourth day of the week
> Petak, BG петък: the fifth day of the week
> Subota, BG събота: from Sabbat


Same for Bulgarian.


----------



## berndf

Ben Jamin said:


> Can we conclude that German was the first to introduce this name?


It looks like it.


----------



## Ben Jamin

berndf said:


> It looks like it.


Than it's strange that the word spread so far as to Russia, across the religious border between West and East. Note that Russian has its own name for Sunday, unlike all other Slavic languages.


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## Arrius

Portuguese shares *sabado* and *domingo* with some other languages but the remaining days of the week are indicated by ordinal numerals: *segunda-feira* (Monday) followed by *terça/quarta/quinta/ sexta feira*. The system is taken from Arabic, in which _ilyoom al aHad_=day one, i.e. Sunday), and Friday (_ilyoom al juma3_ = day of the congregation) is the holy day of Islam. _ilyoom assabt_, literally the seventh day, a cognate of sabbath and sabado, contains the Arabic word for seven.


----------



## berndf

Ben Jamin said:


> Than it's strange that the word spread so far as to Russia, across the religious border between West and East. Note that Russian has its own name for Sunday, unlike all other Slavic languages.


What is the name for Wednesday in OCS?


----------



## Outsider

Ben Jamin said:


> Than it's strange that the word spread so far as to Russia, across the religious border between West and East.


At the time, the East-West religious border was much less pronounced. I guess this is a trace of the influential German expansion into Eastern Europe in the Middle Ages.



Arrius said:


> Portuguese shares *sabado* and *domingo* with some other languages but the remaining days of the week are indicated by ordinal numerals: *segunda-feira* (Monday) followed by *terça/quarta/quinta/ sexta feira*. The system is taken from Arabic, in which _ilyoom al aHad_=day one, i.e. Sunday), and Friday (_ilyoom al juma3_ = day of the congregation) is the holy day of Islam. _ilyoom assabt_, literally the seventh day, a cognate of sabbath and sabado, contains the Arabic word for seven.


It's not from Arabic. See the previous pages of this thread.


----------



## Arrius

*It's not from Arabic. See the previous pages of this thread*.  *Outsider*
OK, if you say so - I suppose you mean the system of naming the days numerically.


----------



## Outsider

I meant the names for the days of the week in Portuguese.


----------



## Ben Jamin

berndf said:


> What is the name for Wednesday in OCS?


Now I know:
It's срѣда


----------



## Ben Jamin

Outsider said:


> At the time, the East-West religious border was much less pronounced. I guess this is a trace of the influential German expansion into Eastern Europe in the Middle Ages.


Not a direct one.
German missionaries did not penetrate Russia, it was christened by Byzantine missionaries. The trade was little developed at that time (Xth century), and colonization nonexistent until Catherine II.

The calque word for Mittwoch must have been imported through other Slavic languages.


----------



## Outsider

Ben Jamin said:


> German missionaries did not penetrate Russia, it was christened by Byzantine missionaries.


I was rather thinking of trade, migration, and conquest, for example under the Hanseatic League, or by the Teutonic Knights.


----------



## berndf

Outsider said:


> I was rather thinking of trade, migration, and conquest, for example under the Hanseatic League, or by the Teutonic Knights.


My first idea as well but then the Middle *Low *German word for Wednesday is _godensdach_ (=_ Wontan's day_), completely different from Middle *High *German.


----------



## Ben Jamin

Outsider said:


> I was rather thinking of trade, migration, and conquest, for example under the Hanseatic League, or by the Teutonic Knights.


At the time of Teutonic Knights an Hansa it was too late. 
Besides, they were Catholic, and the weekdays belonged to the Church domain. The Teutonic Knights had only contact with the North West corner of Rus, and then as military enemies.

The word came form OCS: срѣда.


----------



## berndf

Ben Jamin said:


> Now I know:
> It's срѣда


Thanks. That indeed rules out Hanseatic influence. It also means that the Slavic and High German words are of similar age.

Cyril and Methodius did quite a bit of their mission work within the borders of the East Frankish Empire. They must have been exposed to Old High German. But we still don't know which way the influence went.


----------



## Sepia

Walshie79 said:


> "Samedi" and German "Samstag" are derived from "Sabbath" (not "Saturn"), but it's much less obvious than Spanish "Sabado". A late Latin form "Sabbat-", taken into both languages, changed to "Sambat-" and then "Samat-". English "Saturday" is from Saturn, as is Dutch "Zaterdag". When I first learnt French, I always connected "Vendredi" with "vendre", as though it meant "Sale day"!
> 
> In Britain we are generally taught that the other days of the week are named after "Viking gods", but that's nonsense, they're actually named after Anglo-Saxon gods. "Wednesday" is from Old English Woden, not Norse Odin; and "Tuesday" is from OE Tiw, not Norse Tyr. While Thursday and Friday do look more like the Norse words, they can be quite regularly derived from "Thunresdaeg" and "Frigedaeg" which were their names in Old English.



I don't quite get where you distinguish between Anglo/Saxon gods and Viking gods. Where I am at, we consider the Anglo-Saxons Vikings too - where they came from is just a few km north of where I live.

And what Wednesday is concerned - Wotan and Odin was the same guy. So wheter you wheter you use the English word "Wednesday", the Jutland dialect word "wonsdaw", or standard Danish "onsdag", I'd say it is obvious that all three versions got their name from the same god.


----------



## Maroseika

berndf said:


> That indeed rules out Hanseatic influence. It also means that the Slavic and High German words are of similar age.



Yes, more or less. First Slavic record of this word is dated middle of XI century (Супрасльская летопись).
But it could be just the same logic. Max Vasmer supposed it was a calque from German, but Slavs could easily "invent' this name by themselves, because their week started from Sunday, and Wednesday was really the  middle day of a week.


----------



## Walshie79

Sepia said:


> I don't quite get where you distinguish between Anglo/Saxon gods and Viking gods. Where I am at, we consider the Anglo-Saxons Vikings too - where they came from is just a few km north of where I live.
> 
> And what Wednesday is concerned - Wotan and Odin was the same guy. So wheter you wheter you use the English word "Wednesday", the Jutland dialect word "wonsdaw", or standard Danish "onsdag", I'd say it is obvious that all three versions got their name from the same god.



What I meant was the English day names are derived from the Old English words for the gods (Woden), not the Norse ones (Odin)- the names are certainly cognate, and it's  fair to say they are the same gods.

Somewhat off-topic, it's very interesting that Jutland dialect has a word for Wednesday starting with [w], which was already lost in Old Norse. From what I've read, some of the "Danish" dialects of Jutland also put the definite article before the noun. To me this begs the question; are they North or West Germanic?


----------



## berndf

Walshie79 said:


> Somewhat off-topic, it's very interesting that Jutland dialect has a word for Wednesday starting with [w], which was already lost in Old Norse. From what I've read, some of the "Danish" dialects of Jutland also put the definite article before the noun. To me this begs the question; are they North or West Germanic?


To my knowledge West-Germanic. North-Germanic reached the peninsula with the Danes; if my memory serves me well, in the 8th century.

PS: The German Wikipedia says 5th century. This might be true for the North of Jutland. I don't know. In the South (North and South Schleswig, North Freisland) is was certainly not before the 8th century. By the early 9th century, The Schlei-Eider line was firmly established as Denmark's southern border. Under Danish rule, there always were Saxon speakers in Schleswig and Frisian speakers West thereof. I am not sure but I would surmise that the obvious West-Germanic influence in modern dialects spoken in Jutland is due to Low-German and Frisian influence and not the remains of the language of a pre-Danish Jutish tribe.


----------



## Pedro y La Torre

In Irish:

Dé Luain
Dé Máirt
Dé Céadaoin
Déardaoin
Dé hAoine
Dé Sathairn 
Dé Domhnaigh

Half seem to have Latin origins, while the rest are to do with fasts, i.e. Déardaoin ''day between two fasts''.


----------



## englishman

CapnPrep said:


> More generally, it is *not* obvious that "_-di_ means _-day_", so it would not occur to the average speaker to decompose the names of the days of the week in French


I guess that you mean "average French speaker" here ? I would think that, for a native English speaker, it's impossible to avoid making this connection.


----------



## Sepia

berndf said:


> To my knowledge West-Germanic. North-Germanic reached the peninsula with the Danes; if my memory serves me well, in the 8th century.
> 
> PS: The German Wikipedia says 5th century. This might be true for the North of Jutland. I don't know. In the South (North and South Schleswig, North Freisland) is was certainly not before the 8th century. By the early 9th century, The Schlei-Eider line was firmly established as Denmark's southern border. Under Danish rule, there always were Saxon speakers in Schleswig and Frisian speakers West thereof. I am not sure but I would surmise that the obvious West-Germanic influence in modern dialects spoken in Jutland is due to Low-German and Frisian influence and not the remains of the language of a pre-Danish Jutish tribe.



To a certain extent this could  be probably true, I think. The unsolved question, though, is what we consider Danish or Denmark at that time. 

According to a different source (somebody I know wrote a lot of stuff about the "Danes" - can be read at www.verasir.dk) those who were called "danir" - Danes - were the people from the islands. They were and still are the greater part of the population and their language gradually spread to Jutland and the language of the Jutish tribes lost its character of a language of its own.

It is true what Walsh... writes: Up till today Jutish dialects have one gender, article in front of the noun and several other similarities with English. But today it is hard to find anyone under 60 or 70 who really speak these dialects - except in the South. However, I think the simplifled grammar with one gender etc. set in alt a later period of time - after most of them had converted to Christianity.


----------



## apmoy70

Ben Jamin said:


> ...Friday-->«Παῥασκευή» (Părhăskeu'ē, Paras*k*e'vi in modern Greek pronunciation); Day of Preparation (i.e. preparation of Sabbath)...


Actually it's Paras*c*e'vi because the kappa before i or e is palatised, it's Paraskje'vi


----------



## Favara

A difference between Catalan and other Romance languages (or at least the nearest ones) is that we put the "day" part before the other part:
_*Di*lluns, *di*marts, *di*mecres, *di*jous, *di*vendres, *di*ssabte_ and _diumenge.
_Reverse it, remove the S and they're almost like the French names: _"llundi", "martdi", "mecredi"...
_


----------



## Gavril

The Welsh weekday names all seem to be loaned (not translated) from Latin, though they start with the native word _dydd_ "day".

_dydd Llun_ (Lunae) "Monday"
_dydd Mawrth_ (Martis) "Tuesday"
_dydd Mercher_ (Mercuris) "Wednesday"
_dydd Iau_ (Iouis / Iovis) "Thursday"
_dydd Gwener_ (Ueneris / Veneris) "Friday"
_dydd Sadwrn_ (Saturni) "Saturday"
_dydd Sul_ (Solis) "Sunday"

If you want to specify a certain part of the day (e.g., "Sunday afternoon", "Monday morning"), _dydd_ is replaced with the word referring to the time of day: _prynhawn Sul_ "Sunday afternon", _bore Llun_ "Monday morning", etc.


----------



## Ben Jamin

Favara said:


> A difference between Catalan and other Romance languages (or at least the nearest ones) is that we put the "day" part after the other part:
> _*Di*lluns, *di*marts, *di*mecres, *di*jous, *di*vendres, *di*ssabte_ and _diumenge._
> Reverse it, remove the S and they're almost like the French names: _"llundi", "martdi", "mecredi"..._


You meant *before*?


----------



## Ben Jamin

apmoy70 said:


> Actually it's Paras*c*e'vi because the kappa before i or e is palatised, it's Paraskje'vi


 I was not the author of the post about Greek names, I only commented it.
By the way, it seems strange to me to transliterate Greek 'K' as 'c' before an 'e'.


----------



## Favara

Ben Jamin said:


> You meant *before*?


Sorry, you're right.


----------



## apmoy70

Ben Jamin said:


> I was not the author of the post about Greek names, I only commented it.


I'm sorry I thought it was you who changed it


Ben Jamin said:


> By the way, it seems strange to me to transliterate Greek 'K' as 'c' before an 'e'.


Well, in IPA isn't [c] considered a voiceless palatal plosive?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_palatal_plosive
pronunciation of [c]


----------



## Ben Jamin

apmoy70 said:


> I'm sorry I thought it was you who changed it
> 
> Well, in IPA isn't [c] considered a voiceless palatal plosive?
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_palatal_plosive
> pronunciation of [c]



Yes it is.
It was, however, not necessary to use the IPA symbols in this thread, so I assumed that it was a transliteration.


----------



## Fericire

In Portuguese:

"Segunda-Feira" = "Second Fair" = Monday
"Terça-Feira" = "Third Fair" = Tuesday
"Quarta-Feira" = "Fourth Fair" = Wednesday
"Quinta-Feira" = "Fifth Fair" = Thursday
"Sexta-Feira" = "Sixth Fair" = Friday
"Sábado" = "Satuday"
"Domingo" = "Sunday"

"Sábado" isn't called the "Sétima-Feira" (Seventh Fair) because, as the Portugal main religion was (and still is) the Catholicism, God made the world in 7 days. In the seventh. he did rest and made the seventh day to rest.

"Domingo" comes from latin, "dominus": "Dies Domini" (in modern-portuguese: "Dia do Senhor").
In English: "God's Day".

"Feira", in medieval-portuguese (as it doesn't have the same meaning these days) is day of work.
The people used to work from the second day of the week (the first was God's Day) to the sixth. The seventh day was said by God it should be a day to rest.


----------



## sekelsenmat

Fericire said:


> "Feira", in medieval-portuguese (as it doesn't have the same meaning these days) is day of work.



Are you sure? Do you have a source?



> The people used to work from the second day of the week (the first was God's Day) to the sixth.



That's wrong ... even today in Brazil people work from monday to saturday (although this last one in half-time), .... I doubt people worked less in the middle ages.


----------



## berndf

sekelsenmat said:


> That's wrong ... even today in Brazil people work from monday to saturday (although this last one in half-time), .... I doubt people worked less in the middle ages.


Monday *is* the second and Saturday *is* the sixth day of the week.

(Counting weekdays from Monday to Sunday rather than from Sunday to Saturday is a very recent development.)


----------



## sekelsenmat

berndf said:


> Monday *is* the second and Saturday *is* the sixth day of the week.
> 
> (Counting weekdays from Monday to Sunday rather than from Sunday to Saturday is a very recent development.)



No, Saturday is the seventh if you count from Sunday to Saturday.


----------



## Fericire

sekelsenmat said:


> Are you sure? Do you have a source?
> 
> 
> 
> That's wrong ... even today in Brazil people work from monday to saturday (although this last one in half-time), .... I doubt people worked less in the middle ages.



Sadly, I don't have a (the) source (anymore).

And no, that's not wrong.
Saturday is the 2nd day of the week. Sunday is the first.
People worked the same days as now.


----------



## berndf

sekelsenmat said:


> No, Saturday is the seventh if you count from Sunday to Saturday.


Sorry for the typo; yes of course, that's what I meant.


----------



## Wynn Mathieson

Unless I've missed it, no-one seems to have mentioned the Scandinavian words for Saturday:

Icelandic *laugardagur*
Norwegian (nynorsk)  *laurdag*
Danish & Norwegian (bokmål)  *lørdag*
Swedish *lördag*

The original meaning of these is "wash day".

I think it's a fair bet that Finnish *lauantai* and Estonian *laupäev* are based on the Scandinavian too.


----------



## iobyo

effeundici said:


> Utorak : Tuesday; I don't know



The ordinal _*utori_ (> _*vtori_) has been replaced by _drugi_. The word for Tuesday is the only relic I'm aware of. 

The situation is the same for Czech: Old Czech _vterý_ has been replaced by _druhý_.


----------



## Sepia

Wynn Mathieson said:


> Unless I've missed it, no-one seems to have mentioned the Scandinavian words for Saturday:
> 
> Icelandic *laugardagur*
> Norwegian (nynorsk)  *laurdag*
> Danish & Norwegian (bokmål)  *lørdag*
> Swedish *lördag*
> 
> The original meaning of these is "wash day".
> 
> I think it's a fair bet that Finnish *lauantai* and Estonian *laupäev* are based on the Scandinavian too.




Yes, that makes sense. Viking men had a reputation of being very popular among women even of the higher social classes, amont other things because the bathed regularly - usually once a week. Some Arabic businessman who spent time in Haithabu wrote about that. 

And it is a very fair bet, that the whole idea of seven weekdays came to the Finns through Scandinavia. After all, none of our peoples would have needed seven names of weekdays if they had not adopted a calender with weeks counting seven days.


----------



## Miguel Antonio

Fericire said:


> "Feira", in medieval-portuguese (as it doesn't have the same meaning these days) is day of work.


I don't know where you got this information from. I wasn't around in the Middle Ages, but the Catholic Church was, and in ecclesiastical Latin, the Sunday was _feria (prima)_, each day following being _secunda, tertia_, etc.
_Feria_ in Latin means feast, and it was not a working day but the opposite. Many fairs were held (and still are, in rural areas of Portugal and Galicia) on the Sunday because as it was not a working day and more customers would be attracted, hence the other meaning of the word _feira_.

In Turkish, Sunday is _pazar_, from the Farsi _bazar_, meaning market. I see a connection there...


----------



## mataripis

I agree that the name of the days were coined from the name of the Planetary Bodies in our Solar System. The Tagalog used spanish and english names/terms for the days.1.) Lunes/Monday= Luna/Moon  2.) Tuesday/Martes= Mars  3.)Wednesday/Miercoles= Mercury  4.)Thursday/Jueves= Jupiter  5.) Friday/Viernes= Venus  6.)Saturday/Sabado=Saturn and 7.) Sunday/Ling-go=Sun


----------



## Jam on toast

My partner maintains that although the Germanic language weekday names are named after Germanic gods, those gods map exactly to their Roman god equivalents and their associated planetary bodies. If I'm to trust Wikipedia then it confirms  what she says.

Is that true - did whoever came up with Germanic weekday names, way back whenever, deliberately select Gods that echoed perfectly the Roman Gods and pick them is the same order? It just all seems so unlikely, so incredibly organised. I suppose perhaps the Church had the power to do that sort of thing, but now I'm guessing so someone please put me straight.

Is this planetary body and god theme consistent for all European languages? Did it get into the Celtic tongues (noting previous comment on Welsh borrowings), Slavic languages, and what about non-IE languages e.g. Basque, Albanian, Hungarian, Finnish, etc?


----------



## Ben Jamin

Jam on toast said:


> My partner maintains that although the Germanic language weekday names are named after Germanic gods, those gods map exactly to their Roman god equivalents and their associated planetary bodies. If I'm to trust Wikipedia then it confirms  what she says.
> 
> Is that true - did whoever came up with Germanic weekday names, way back whenever, deliberately select Gods that echoed perfectly the Roman Gods and pick them is the same order? It just all seems so unlikely, so incredibly organised. I suppose perhaps the Church had the power to do that sort of thing, but now I'm guessing so someone please put me straight.
> 
> Is this planetary body and god theme consistent for all European languages? Did it get into the Celtic tongues (noting previous comment on Welsh borrowings), Slavic languages, and what about non-IE languages e.g. Basque, Albanian, Hungarian, Finnish, etc?


Weekdays in Slavic languages are well described in the earlier postings in this thread.


----------



## Nanon

Persian (from this thread - merci Iman ):

Saturday: shanbe شنبه
Sunday: yek (1) shanbe یک شنبه
Monday: do (2) shanbe دو شنبه
Tuesday: se (3) shanbe سه شنبه
Wednesday: chæhar (4) shanbe چهار شنبه
Thursday: panj (5) shanbe پنج شنبه
Friday: jom'e جمعه (this one must come from Arabic)

So from 2 to 5, it is easy for me to memorise the days of the week starting from Portuguese. I just have to fill in the gaps for the rest!


----------



## Ben Jamin

Nanon said:


> Persian (from this thread - merci Iman ):
> 
> Saturday: shambe شنبه
> Sunday: yek (1) shambe یک شنبه
> Monday: do (2) shambe دو شنبه
> Tuesday: se (3) shambe سه شنبه
> Wednesday: chæhar (4) shambe چهار شنبه
> Thursday: panj (5) shambe پنج شنبه
> Friday: jom'e جمعه (this one must come from Arabic)
> 
> So from 2 to 5, it is easy for me to memorise the days of the week starting from Portuguese. I just have to fill in the gaps for the rest!


 What does 'shambe' mean? What is the etymology?


----------



## Nanon

Shanbe seems to be be related to "sabbath". See here and here.


----------



## Ben Jamin

Nanon said:


> Shanbe seems to be be related to "sabbath". See here and here.


 But does it mean "day of the week"?


----------



## Nanon

No, day is _rooz_.


----------



## Ben Jamin

Nanon said:


> No, day is _rooz_.


 So what does 'shambe' alone mean?


----------



## roanjf

For example in Italian the weekday names derive from planets:
Lunedì - from Luna (Luna)
Martedì - from Marte (Mars)
Mercoledì - from Mercurio (Mercurius)
Giovedì - from Giove (Iuppiter)
Venerdì - from Venere (Venus)
Sabato - from Saturno (Saturnus)
Domenica - from the Latin "dies dominica", the Lord's day.


----------



## Brioche

berndf said:


> The Latin names are based on the planets' names. But the Germanic names seem to take their association from the gods and not the planets.




The names of the week came from the 7 heavenly bodies which move in the sky, namely the Sun, the Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn.
In Latin there was a link between the name of the god and the name of the planet.

That fell away when the gods' names were translated into Germanic.


----------



## Abu Rashid

roanjf said:


> Sabato - from Saturno (Saturnus)



I'd say it's a lot more likely that comes from Sabbath than Saturno.

Ditto for this one:




mataripis said:


> 6.)Saturday/Sabado=Saturn



A quick query on Google translate seems to confirm it too:

*Sabbath*
Spanish: sábado
Italian: Sabato


----------



## DenisBiH

One thing to add about Slavic, not really very important, but still - there seem to exist two reconstructed Common Slavic forms for Saturday - *sǫbota (with a nasal) and *sobota, for which the etymology is given like this:


> *sǫbota, *sobota < _lat._ sabbatum, *sambatum < _gr_. 〈pl〉 sábbata < _hebr._ šabbāt


----------



## ampurdan

The fact that the Germanic names include days for the Sun and the Moon strikes me as a strong indication that they were intended to be an adaptation of the "new" Graeco-Roman system of naming days after planets explained by Vettius Valens and Dio Cassius, applying some sort of interpretatio germanica for the rest of the days and allowing for exceptions (for instance, _Mittwoch_).

As for the origin of using planets to name the days, I'm sure many contributors to this thread would have already read this page, but I find it's nonetheless worth quoting this:



> Now, however, I have found a scholarly source with a reasonable account.  This is _The Oxford Companion to the Year, An exploration of calendar customs and time-reckoning_,  by Bonnie Blackburn & Leofranc Holford-Strevens [Oxford University  Press, 1999, 2003].  According to this source, the formulation of the  planetary week goes back to Ptolemaic Egypt [pp.566-568].  Its first historical description is by the Roman historian Cassius Dio (Consul in 229). (...) it is simply an artifact of the sequence of days generated  in this way that the planets in _ascending_ order can by read off  every other day.  Although the pagan planetary seven day week would thus  have a pagan origin, it is noteworthy that the notion of a seven day  week nevertheless might still be Jewish, since the example of the  significant Jewish community of Ptolemaic Alexandria, already using a  seven day week, could well have suggested the use of the seven planets  for a similar cycle.  It could be a nice instance of Hellenistic  cultural syncretism.  The status of Sunday as the first day of the  planetary week, rather than Saturday, could be due either to Jewish and  then Christian influence or to the circumstance that the Sun became the  principal Roman state god as Sôl Invictus or Mithras under Aurelian and the Tetrarchy.  Thus, the _Oxford Companion_  mentions [p.567] that Constantine did not refer to Sunday as the  "Lord's Day" or the "Sabbath," but as "the day celebrated by veneration  of the sun itself" (_diem solis veneratione sui celebrem_).  This  is consistent with other indications that Constantine did not abruptly  abandon the solar cult despite his establishment of Christianity.


----------



## hurma

Jam on toast said:


> My partner maintains that although the Germanic language weekday names are named after Germanic gods, those gods map exactly to their Roman god equivalents and their associated planetary bodies. If I'm to trust Wikipedia then it confirms  what she says.
> 
> Is that true - did whoever came up with Germanic weekday names, way back whenever, deliberately select Gods that echoed perfectly the Roman Gods and pick them is the same order? It just all seems so unlikely, so incredibly organised. I suppose perhaps the Church had the power to do that sort of thing, but now I'm guessing so someone please put me straight.
> 
> Is this planetary body and god theme consistent for all European languages? Did it get into the Celtic tongues (noting previous comment on Welsh borrowings), Slavic languages, and what about non-IE languages e.g. Basque, Albanian, Hungarian, Finnish, etc?



Hi Jam 

To begin I think that Albanian is considered an IE language. Anyway to get back to the weekdays theme:

Monday      = E Hënë ( from Hëna = Moon)
Tuesday     = E Martë ( Mars)
Wednesday = E Mërkurë ( Mercury)
Thursday    = E Enjte ( from Enji = Thor )
Friday        = E Premte ( from Prema = Freya )
Saturday    = E Shtunë ( from Saturn I guess)
Sunday      = E Dielë ( from Diell = Sun)


----------



## ysgraithe

hurma said:


> Hi Jam
> 
> To begin I think that Albanian is considered an IE language. Anyway to get back to the weekdays theme:
> 
> Monday = E Hënë ( from Hëna = Moon)
> Tuesday = E Martë ( Mars)
> Wednesday = E Mërkurë ( Mercury)
> Thursday = E Enjte ( from Enji = Thor )
> Friday = E Premte ( from Prema = Freya )
> Saturday = E Shtunë ( from Saturn I guess)
> Sunday = E Dielë ( from Diell = Sun)



It is a well known fact Albanian is indeed an IE language.


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## LilianaB

In Lithuanian the number based system has been used in reference to days of the week:
primadienis
antradienis
treciadienis
ketvirtadienis
penktadienis
sestadienis
sekmadienis. This is starting from Monday as the first day, Sunday being the seventh one.It is different in reconstructed Prussian. The days are a mixture of names derived from different things. Thursday is the fourth day, but the other days are different.


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## tonyspeed

koniecswiata said:


> The whole system of gods/planets that we find in English, French, Spanish, Old Greek, etc... has its origin in Mesopotamia.  Apparently, since they invented the 7 day week system, they also asigned gods and planets to these gods to these days.  So Monday was for the moon, Sunday for the sun, etc... This was then just calqued into Greek, then Latin, then Germanic languages, and possibly other languages in Europe.
> With Christianity, an attempt was made at eliminating this system, to replace it with a...possibly "blander" number day system (1st day, 2nd day, midweek, etc...).  This worked in the case of Portuguese, Greek, and Slavic languages--also German in the case of Wednesday.



And not just European languages - Hindi

somwaar - Moon day
mangalwaar - Mars day
buddhwaar - Mercury day
guruvaar - Jupiter day
shukrawaar - Venus day
shaniwaar -  Saturn day
raviwaar - Sun day

It's nice to know we are still following astrological traditions invented in the first civilisation..


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## SaintNine

Walshie79 said:


> "Samedi" and German "Samstag" are derived from "Sabbath" (not "Saturn"), but it's much less obvious than Spanish "Sabado". A late Latin form "Sabbat-", taken into both languages, changed to "Sambat-" and then "Samat-". English "Saturday" is from Saturn, as is Dutch "Zaterdag". When I first learnt French, I always connected "Vendredi" with "vendre", as though it meant "Sale day"!
> 
> In Britain we are generally taught that the other days of the week are named after "Viking gods", but that's nonsense, they're actually named after Anglo-Saxon gods. "Wednesday" is from Old English Woden, not Norse Odin; and "Tuesday" is from OE Tiw, not Norse Tyr. While Thursday and Friday do look more like the Norse words, they can be quite regularly derived from "Thunresdaeg" and "Frigedaeg" which were their names in Old English.


As berndf said,  and Frigedaeg is from Frigg, known as Frija in Old High German and thus conflated with Freya, although a substantial number of scholars think that because of a considerable “thematic overlap” that they may well be one and the same.

I was born in West Berlin and German was my first language, though I'd spent a year in England and another in the USA before moving to the UK permanently when I was ten. We continued to speak German at home, so my German is much better than a ten-year-old's, but not so up-to-date (for example, nowadays everyone says _Cousin_ (with french pronunciation) rather than _Vetter_, which I learned and is now considered old-fashioned, although a female cousin was and still is _Kusine_. Similarly _Bon_ or _Kassenbon_ (again, like the French) for receipt (_Kasse_ = till/box-office/point of sale/teller (at a bank)) instead of _Quittung_. Odd that they're are both replaced with French words). Anyway, it was more common to say _Sonnabend_ (Sun Eve) for Saturday then, and I thought that _Samstag_ was more colloquial, informal or slang usage. Am I mistaken in that belief, and could anyone enlighten me as to the etymology of the two terms? Thank you


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## SaintNine

Ihsiin said:


> ...the days of the week English and other Germanic languages came to be named after the Germanic analogue of the Greco-Roman deities:
> 
> Sunday and Monday are fairly obvious translations of "dies solis" and "dies lunae" respectively.
> Tuesday is after Tiw, the god of war, to compare with Mars.
> Wednesday after Woden, psycho-pomp, to compare with Mercury.
> Thursday after Thunor, god of thunder, to compare with Jupiter (that is to say, Jove).
> Friday after Frige, goddess of love (at a stretch), to compare with Venus.
> And Saturday, well, they ran out of analogue deities so they just kept it as Saturn's day.



That's really interesting, thank you. It makes sense of the French names. Speaking of which, I noticed at least one other member, like me, thought that _Vendredi_ derived from vendre (= to sell), but did anyone else ever think that _Jeudi_ meant ‘Play Day’, derived from jeu (= game)?


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## SaintNine

berndf said:


> I guess every foreigner is tempted to make this connection (like myself). By the way, we also associate _Jeudi_ with _jeu_ (_game_), do you?



Sorry, I didn't see this post before I posted that I made exactly that association.


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## SaintNine

berndf said:


> If you wanted to associate_ mercredi_ with _mer_ you'd have to analyse it as _mer-credi_.
> 
> In _mer_ it is longer than in _mercredi_.



Perhaps that is a German thing, because I would say exactly the same.


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## berndf

SaintNine said:


> Anyway, it was more common to say _Sonnabend_ (Sun Eve) for Saturday then, and I thought that _Samstag_ was more colloquial, informal or slang usage. Am I mistaken in that belief, and could anyone enlighten me as to the etymology of the two terms?


_Samstag _is southern and _Sonnabend _is northern. For the etymology of _Samstag_, see post #2 above and _Sonnabend _really means _Sun[day] Eve_ as one would guess. If is a loan translation of Old English _sunnanæfen_.


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## JoMe

Regarding Sonnabend: I read that _It was none other__ than St. Bonifatius, who was determined during the 700’s to convert the Germanic tribes in the Frankish empire. One of his items on his to-do list was to replace the word "Samstag" or "Sambaztac" as it was known then, which was of Hebraic origin (Shabbat), to the Old English term “Sunnanaefen.” _

But then, starting the (next) day at the (prev) evening is a Hebrew/Jewish tradition, for example the name for Friday-after-sunset is "`erev Shabbat" = "Saturday Eve". So it could be that St. Bonifatius (or whoever coined the term Sonnabend/Sunnanaefen) replaced an Hebraic word by a Germanic term based on Hebrew.


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## Sardokan1.0

In Sardinian, like other Romance languages it's a calque of Latin, the only peculiarity is the name for "friday", even if it's derived from Latin it's only used in Sardinian language among all other languages of the Romance family.

*Sardinian* - (Latin)

*Lùnis *- (Lunae dies)

*Màrtis *- (Martis dies)

*Mèrcuris *- (Mercurii dies)

*Jòvia, Jòbia, Jòia* - (Jovis dies)

*Chenàpura, Chenàbura* - (Dies Caena Pura = Day of the Pure Dinner) : It was the name used by Sardinian Jews and early Sardinian Christians, for the dinner of Friday, before the holiday of Shabbat.

*Sàppadu *- (Sabbati dies)
*
Domìnica, Domìniga* - (Dies Dominica).

*
P.S.*
The days of the week have a similar structure also in the nearby Corsican language, except for Friday.

*Luni
Marti
Mèrcuri, Màrcuri
Ghjovi/Ghiovi
Venneri/Vènnari/Vèneri/Vènari/Vèndari/Vènderi
Sàbbatu
Dumènica/Dumìnica *


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## SaintNine

berndf said:


> _Samstag _is southern and _Sonnabend _is northern. For the etymology of _Samstag_, see post #2 above and _Sonnabend _really means _Sun[day] Eve_ as one would guess. If is a loan translation of Old English _sunnanæfen_.





JoMe said:


> But then, starting the (next) day at the (prev) evening is a Hebrew/Jewish tradition, for example the name for Friday-after-sunset is "`erev Shabbat" = "Saturday Eve".



Thank you both very much. It may well be the Hebrew/Jewish tradition that influenced it, but there’s an extremely well known example in Christmas Eve. I guess the Germans call it Heiligabend (holy eve), although we just called it Weihnachten. We didn’t celebrate Christmas Day, but got our presents on Christmas Eve, which was interminable torture for us as children! Our father would spend hours decorating the tree, which we weren’t allowed to see, while our mother prepared Christmas dinner. The hours seemed like weeks! At around 16:00 we would be called in for dinner which took until around 18:00. Then there was another wait for the finishing touches to be made and finally, at around 19:30 a little bell was rung and we near trampled over one another in our rush to get to the tree first. No sooner had we opened our presents (about 20:00) and it was time for bed! Oh cruel, cruel world! The tree was invariably beautiful, with real candles and Lametta (thin strips of silver foil that look like icicles – I believe it’s started to become popular here too. Well, the tradition of a Christmas tree was introduced by Prince Albert, after all and it does look very pretty, it’s just painstaking removing all the individual strands for next year’s tree), glass balls of every colour and straw and paper stars and decorations some of which we had helped our grandmother make, but as young children we weren’t very appreciative of the aesthetics. You could say that we were lucky: we got our presents twelve hours earlier than our British counterparts, and we got a few small presents on the 6th December too (St Nicholas’s day – when the lucky Dutch children get all their presents), but we weren’t mature enough to take such a positive outlook, for us it was just the longest, never-ending wait.

There is also Walpurgisnacht (Nacht = night), also known as  St Walpurga's Eve, another Christian example. The use of ‘nacht’ in place of ’abend’ is not uncommon in German (speaking of saints prompts me to explain my username: I’m a drummer and obvious names like Styx, Stygian or even Charon are almost always taken, so I came up with this terrible pun: Saint is abbreviated to St and nine is ix, making Stix . Sorry).


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## SaintNine

Could I impinge on your superior knowledge once again, please? Does the German ‘Dienstag’ also come from Tiw? What is its etymology? I used to think it meant ‘Service Day’ (Dienst = service, eg Gottesdienst = church service, literally God's service ).


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## berndf

No, _Dienstag_ means _thing's day_ (_thing_=the Germanic assembly of free men, not the modern English word _thing_). The word is of Low German origin and replaced the original High German _Ziostag_, which is cognate with English _Tuesday_. The original High German name has survived in some dialects, like in Alemannic _Zischtig_.


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## Ansku89

Sepia said:


> And it is a very fair bet, that the whole idea of seven weekdays came to the Finns through Scandinavia. After all, none of our peoples would have needed seven names of weekdays if they had not adopted a calender with weeks counting seven days.


Weekdays in Finnish: maanantai, tiistai, keskiviikko, torstai, perjantai, lauantai, sunnuntai. All of them seem to be versions of the Swedish ones except Wednesday - keskiviikko literally means middle week so it looks like a translation of Mittwoch in German. So maybe some German influence too? I'm not enough of a language nerd to be sure about this. But what I know is that the rest of the names mean absolutely nothing else in Finnish, they are most likely direct loans that have evolved a bit to sound more Finnish but for example the -tai ending doesn't mean anything.


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## ahvalj

Ansku89 said:


> Weekdays in Finnish: maanantai, tiistai, keskiviikko, torstai, perjantai, lauantai, sunnuntai. All of them seem to be versions of the Swedish ones except Wednesday - keskiviikko literally means middle week so it looks like a translation of Mittwoch in German. So maybe some German influence too? I'm not enough of a language nerd to be sure about this. But what I know is that the rest of the names mean absolutely nothing else in Finnish, they are most likely direct loans that have evolved a bit to sound more Finnish but for example the -tai ending doesn't mean anything.


This _j_ may have come from Norrland (including Ostrobothnian) Swedish dialect, where _dagen_ is pronounced [dajin].

_Keskiviikko_ indeed looks like a German or further Ecclesiastical Latin calque, but on the other hand it may turn out to be a rendering of the Russian sereda "Wednesday; middle", cp. other early Christian loans from Russian into Finnish: raamattu, risti, pappi, pakana and in particular the Estonian nädal.

(P. S. These words were loaned from a stage earlier than the attested Old East Slavic, hence e. g. the Finnish _a_ in the place of the later Slavic _o_ and the Finnish _aa_ in the place of the later Slavic _a, _the Finnish words faithfully reflecting prehistoric Slavic vowels, see also in this post and below).​


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## AndrasBP

*Hungarian:

hétfő* /'he:tfø:/ - lit. "week-head", "hét" also meaning "seven"
*kedd* /'kɛd:/ - derived from the numeral "kettő" = "two"
*szerda* /'sɛrda/ - a Slavic loan ("middle")
*csütörtök* /'ʧytørtøk/ - a Slavic loan ("fourth")
*péntek* /'pe:ntɛk/ - a Slavic loan ("fifth")
*szombat* /'sombɒt/ - a Slavic loan, ultimately from Shabbat
*vasárnap* /'vɒʃa:rnɒp/ - lit. "market day", from "vásár", an Iranian loanword (cf. bazaar) + "nap" = "day"


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## bearded

Fericire said:


> "Feira", in medieval-portuguese (as it doesn't have the same meaning these days) is day of work.


It may be of interest that in Italian - although _fiera _means fair - working days are called _giorni feriali _(giorno = day, from the Latin adjective _diurnus = _of the day/day's, late Latin > djurnus).


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## muhahaa

ahvalj said:


> This _j_ may have come from Norrland (including Ostrobothnian) Swedish dialect, where _dagen_ is pronounced [dajin].


Or is it the "suffixal" consonant gradation (*tiistaki -> *tiistagi -> tiistai)?


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## ahvalj

muhahaa said:


> Or is it the "suffixal" consonant gradation (*tiistaki -> *tiistagi -> tiistai)?


Yes, that's true_. _Your variant is preferable since e. g. _maanantai_ retains _-n-_ lost in Norse many centuries ago, long before the Swedish palatalization.


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## Penyafort

Jam on toast said:


> Is this planetary body and god theme consistent for all European languages? Did it get into the Celtic tongues (noting previous comment on Welsh borrowings), Slavic languages, and what about non-IE languages e.g. *Basque*, Albanian, Hungarian, Finnish, etc?



In Basque, it's certainly interesting, as it differs from the rest and shows some interesting points.

The first three days of the week are called:

*· astelehen*(*a*) 'Monday', literally 'week-first', that is, 'first day of the week'​*· astearte*(*a*) 'Tuesday', literally 'week-between/interval', that is, 'day in the middle of the week'​*· asteazken*(*a*) 'Wednesday', literally 'week-last', that is, 'last day of the week'​​This has caused theories about the original Basque week being of three days. Trask disagrees and considers the three terms later formations, of 'wholly obscure motivation'. 

Then:

*· ostegun*(*a*) 'Thursday', which is *or*(*t*)*zegun *in some varieties, likely comes from _ortzi _'sky, thunder, storm cloud', for some a sky-god, and _egun _'day'. So this could be a calque indeed from the day for Jupiter. But an origin from _bost/bortz_ 'five', so that it would be the fifth day -counting from Sunday- wouldn't be unlikely either.​​*· ostiral*(*a*) 'Friday', which also has _ortzi _as the first element, but whose second element is obscure, even if some might associate it with the moon.​​*· larunbat*(*a*) 'Saturday' (< _laurenbat_), which is thought by most to come from _laur _'four' (> _laur(d)en_, a quarter), implying a week is a quarter of a month. Another proposal makes it come from _lagun _'mate, fellow, companion', _*lagunen bate_ 'gathering of companions' (as in the variant _neskanegun _'Saturday', literally 'girls' day')​​*· igande*(*a*) 'Sunday', from _igan _'go up, climb, ascend', so from a likely Ascension day.​​​And there are also a few variants, some of which are indeed Latin calques, like _*illen *_for Monday ((h)ile 'moon' in Basque).


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## AndrasBP

Penyafort said:


> In Basque, it's certainly interesting, as it differs from the rest and shows some interesting points.


Very interesting indeed. Basque is just intriguing in every aspect.

.

Here's *Georgian*, another non-Indo-European language showing an atypical pattern (the dots under 'k' and over 'p' indicate an ejective consonant, 'x' is a velar fricative like Spanish 'j'):

*ორშაბათი *(oršabati) 'Monday' = two + Shabbat
*სამშაბათი *(samšabati) 'Tuesday' = three + Shabbat
*ოთხშაბათი *(otxšabati) 'Wednesday' = four + Shabbat
*ხუთშაბათი *(xutšabati) 'Thursday' = five + Shabbat
*პარასკევი *(ṗarasḳevi) 'Friday' = borrowed from Greek
*შაბათი *(šabati) 'Saturday' = 'Shabbat'
*კვირა *(ḳvira) 'Sunday' - derived from Greek 'Kuriakḗ'

The first four are confusing for learners because once you've learnt the numbers, you need to subtract 1 to get the days correctly.


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## Olaszinhok

AndrasBP said:


> The first four are confusing for learners because once you've learnt the numbers, you need to subtract 1 to get the days correctly



I wouldn't say it  is  confusing, I find it to be pretty similar to Portuguese segunda-feira -  Two + shabbat; terça-feira - three + shabbat , etc.  
I do want to learn some Georgian, the script is so gorgeous and the Language structure is really appealing to me...


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## AndrasBP

Olaszinhok said:


> I find it to be pretty similar to Portuguese segunda-feira


Ah, OK. I don't know any Portuguese. I thought "segunda-feira" was Tuesday.


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## se16teddy

In Irish
- The words for Monday, Tuesday, Saturday and Sunday are from Latin Lunae, Martis, Saturni, Domini
- The names for Wednesday, Friday and Thursday mean _first fast, fast _and _between the fasts _respectively.
Lots more detail here: The Days of the Week in Irish


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## Circunflejo

AndrasBP said:


> Ah, OK. I don't know any Portuguese. I thought "segunda-feira" was Tuesday.


 You didn't need to know Portuguese, you just had to read post 69:


Fericire said:


> In Portuguese:
> 
> "Segunda-Feira" = "Second Fair" = Monday
> "Terça-Feira" = "Third Fair" = Tuesday
> "Quarta-Feira" = "Fourth Fair" = Wednesday
> "Quinta-Feira" = "Fifth Fair" = Thursday
> "Sexta-Feira" = "Sixth Fair" = Friday
> "Sábado" = "Satuday"
> "Domingo" = "Sunday"
> 
> "Sábado" isn't called the "Sétima-Feira" (Seventh Fair) because, as the Portugal main religion was (and still is) the Catholicism, God made the world in 7 days. In the seventh. he did rest and made the seventh day to rest.
> 
> "Domingo" comes from latin, "dominus": "Dies Domini" (in modern-portuguese: "Dia do Senhor").
> In English: "God's Day".
> 
> "Feira", in medieval-portuguese (as it doesn't have the same meaning these days) is day of work.
> The people used to work from the second day of the week (the first was God's Day) to the sixth. The seventh day was said by God it should be a day to rest.


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## Vukabular

berndf said:


> The Greek name (Παῥασκευή) was used by Hellenistic Jews (like St. Paul); it isn't a Christian invention either.


Greek:* Παρασκευή*  (Paraskeví) - Friday
Serbian: *Петак* (Petak) - Friday
Saint *Paraskevi *(Serbian: Saint *Petka*) is venerated as a Christian *virgin* martyr. Paraskeva's cult and attributes became confused with that of other saints with the same name as well as pre-Christian deities of the Slavs. She is also known as Prepodobna *mati *(mother) Paraskeva. It seems that the *virgin mother* was a normal occurrence at the time or the word Paraskeva could literally be translated from Serbian as an "ancient mother"


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