# too much flesh?



## Roi Marphille

Hi, 
I've been in Liverpool last weekend and I was really surprised to see the way many girls are dressed in winter-time and OUTSIDE in the street. 
The temperature in the street was about 0ºC (32Fº) during the night, few more degrees during the day. 
Even that, most of teenager-girls and young women wore short-sleeved or non-sleeves sweater with huge necklines and mini-skirts. It was very cold outside but even that, they were very focused to show as many square meters of flesh as possible!.  
Most of them did not even wear a coat or something, nothing to protect them from the freezing temperatures. 
I dared to ask to some of them if they were cold and why they were doing that and they answered me that "*YES, we are cold*" but it was the price to look sexy and so on. 
I've been having a conversation about this with male and female friends who were aware of that, all from my country. A female-friend of mine lived in UK for a while and she was long criticised by British female-friends because she used to be protected from the cold (coat, gloves, scarf) and because she didn't like to wear necklined sweaters or mini-skirts. They told her that she _was not modern and she was old-fashioned_.  
I'm no-one to criticise this behaviour. I'm just curious. It is clear that these girls do that because _there is a market for them_. It is clear that many guys like them and many may not. It's Ok with me. 
I'd like to point this...let's say cultural phenomenon. I'd like to hear your opinions. 
Is that worthy?
Is that healthy? I mean, I bet it is not good to stay in the street half naked during winter. 

PS: I lived in Holland some years ago and I saw a similar phenomenon there but I happen to remember that they wore at least a coat when outside. Maybe now is different.


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## Benjy

i find it absurd in the extreme. not too long ago a girl got kidney disease from having an exposed midriff outside. how silly is that? but like you said.. if they feel the need to dress in such a fashion there is a reason for it.


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## Laia

Haha… very funny thread.
Last year I spend two weeks in the UK too, one in February and last one this December. And it was the same.
Here in Barcelona when we go out we also wear mini-skirts and tank tops, but while we are in the street we wear also a jumper, a coat and a scarf. (In winter).

I played the fool and were in the street without the scarf*. I returned home with the cold of my life. I still have cough! Never ever.
I can be sexy inside the club. Outside, I'm not. I'm a coat with legs.

* I don't want to imagine what could have happen to me if I hadn't worn the coat. I think I would died...


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## Zakalwe

I was in London this week end, and we saw the same thing 
I have lived in England for one year for Erasmus and we were really surprised everytime we saw young english girls going out with very short skirts without thights in winter. While we (french, spanish, greek people) were wearing all what we could to protect us from the cold.
I always thought it was due to the english resistance to the cold, but Roi Marphille just said that they are cold too. 
I don't have a clue why they endure that as it is simple to wear a coat outside and take it off once inside.


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## cuchuflete

Roi,
There are those who prefer fashion to common sense and comfort. Some outgrow the preference; some die from it.
I can imagine a person dressed as you have described, standing on the sidewalk of my village. Soon the sheriff would arrive to take them to the psychiatric ward of the local hospital....after digging them out of the snow.


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## Outsider

Zakalwe said:
			
		

> I was in London this week end, and we saw the same thing
> I have lived in England for one year for Erasmus and we were really surprised everytime we saw young english girls going out with very short skirts without thights in winter. While we (french, spanish, greek people) were wearing all what we could to protect us from the cold.


It does take you a while to adapt to a colder climate. Still, going out wearing miniskirts in the winter seems a little crazy... 
Then again, with the wild weather we've been having in the winter in Southern Europe (snow storms in Italy and Greece!), maybe it's been the other way around up North.


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## Roi Marphille

yeah, even during day time. We were in a very crowded shopping street. It was very cold, my friends and I wore scarfs and gloves. It was odd to see young girls, dressed with non-sleeves sweater doing the shopping with their mothers! We even see that their arms became red from the cold. C'mon it was very cold!, those girls were having a bad time. I'm sure of it.


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## Laia

Zakalwe said:
			
		

> I have lived in England for one year for Erasmus and we were really surprised everytime we saw young english girls going out with very short skirts without thights in winter. While we (french, spanish, greek people) were wearing all what we could to protect us from the cold.


 
*Without thights?*
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarggggggg


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## Roi Marphille

Laia said:
			
		

> *Without thights?*
> Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarggggggg


yep, without *ti*ghts! Can you imagine being a tight-tender? so frustrating nowadays!


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## Laia

Roi Marphille said:
			
		

> yep, without *ti*ghts! Can you imagine being a tight-tender? so frustrating nowadays!


 
OK. Is not frustrating as long as I live. You can't imagine the money I spent in tights... 

-- I can't say it in English...  --

Digamos que la gente que vende medias se forra conmigo. Mientras yo viva, el negocio no se irá a pique.


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## Alundra

Laia said:
			
		

> Digamos que la gente que vende medias se forra conmigo. Mientras yo viva, el negocio no se irá a pique.


 
Juas, juas... eso me recuerda que mi madre le decía a mi marido (cuando eramos novios): Hijo mío... no vas a ganar pa' medias... 

Alundra.


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## Laia

Sí, claro, Alundra... supongo que es una frase que tiene muchas lecturas...  

Ahora lo estoy viendo...


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## Roi Marphille

Hope some other British friends join the discussion here. I'd like to see their point. We know the opinion from Benji for the moment.


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## fenixpollo

Here ya go, Laia, darling: 


			
				Laia said:
			
		

> Let's just say that the people who sell tights make a killing with (on?) me.  (source) As long as I'm still alive, the business won't go under. (source)


 I live in a warm region of the U.S., where there are only 2 seasons: summer and not-summer.  Neither of them is winter, but it can get fairly cold here some years.  I'm acclimated to the hot summers, but during the winters, people (men and women) from other parts of the country who are acclimated to cold winters walk around in shorts and t-shirts, and I'm in my overcoat... and each of us thinks that the other one is crazy.  I'm just grateful that I don't live down south, like cuchu.


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## ampurdan

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> There are those who prefer fashion


 
Fashion? Esto es mucho suponer... Here you're assuming too much...


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## Laia

fenixpollo said:
			
		

> Here ya go, Laia, darling:  (...)


 
Fenix, darling:
Thank you for translating my "so-important" sentence!

 haha


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## cuchuflete

ampurdan said:
			
		

> Fashion? Esto es mucho suponer... Here you're assuming too much...



Caballero,
Supuestamente no están de caza, ni tampoco supongo que sean profesionales...así que...


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## Roi Marphille

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Caballero,
> Supuestamente no están de caza, ni tampoco supongo que sean profesionales...así que...


well, I guess they are actually _hunting_, aren't they?


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## cuchuflete

Roi Marphille said:
			
		

> well, I guess they are actually _hunting_, aren't they?



Baiting, perhaps.


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## Laia

Gentlemen, don't be childish.  
Boys are hunting/baiting. Girls too. Cada uno tiene sus armas de seducción... jajaja

P.D.: hunting/baiting... or whatever you call it


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## Roi Marphille

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Baiting, perhaps.


ups, that's scary!...


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## tvdxer

I think it's certain that many women today have very little respect for themselves, and dress with the intent of making men lust after them.  Asi es la vida in a "Post-Christian" society.


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## nichec

Hummm....I've never seen that in Paris, but I did see that in London last year The difference is that when I asked my British friends: Aren't you cold? They gave me a very nasty look 

There's a saying in Taiwanese: Girls who want to look pretty don't mind to sneeze God, women can do anything to draw attention nowadays 

I myself don't think that you need to show a lot of skin to look pretty/sexy/fashionable. I think being beautiful/sexy/fashionable depends on the way you express yourself, the way you look, the way you talk, the way you behave.....Besides, being sexy and showing off are dangerously close to each other....And I don't think it's a good thing to make people think that you are showing off, what if some of them don't have good intentions? 

I'm a young girl myself, but I always wear thighs when I want to wear shorter skirts (I can only go for skirts a bit above my keens) if it's cold outside (plus boots). I never think that by doing this, I can't get attention from others Besides, the kind of guys who only pay attention to your exposed fleshs are not too trustworthy, are they?


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## Papalote

Greetings from one of the coldest cities in the planet  where girls, well, university students so as not to offend anyone with the term girls, seem to follow the dress code from their peers in London. While I am huddling in my down parka and shivering in my fleece-lined boots, they are walking down the train platform, mid-driff showing in the breeze (and euphemism for 60 km winds  ), coats open, short boots unzipped, scarves carelessly thrown around their necks over their v-neck blouses. One thing though, they do wear pants, jeans usually. Since they are also carrying huge backpacks full of what feels like bricks  , I`ve wondered if the effort in lugging that weight around is what`s keeping them warm . Or could it be they don`t feel cold at -6Celsius??? Next time we`re at -28 C, I`ll check out to see how they dress  .

Saludos,

P


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## ampurdan

I never suspected that British girls were so dedicated to their Country's sake: they risk their health to warm up British (and casual) men.


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## nycphotography

Perhaps it's because British women (particularly those young and prone to *cough*chavvish*cough* spandex wearing behavior) have absolutely no concept of fashion or style?

Winter is a time to wear all your incredible outerwear... coats, scarves, hats, BOOTS...  Furs and leather...   Maybe especially so for men (since our summer clothers are so generic) but also for women.

The only thing hotter than a well put togther woman in the winter... is a well put together woman in the summer.


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## panjandrum

It's probably something to do with travelling light.
If you wear a coat, scarf, hat, etc - enough to keep the North Sea breezes off your Newcastle* skin - and you go to a club, you have to find a safe place to put all of that stuff while you are there.
Why bother?
Why not just freeze to death instead.

*Newcastle-upon-Tyne was the first place I noticed this phenomenon.


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## la reine victoria

> [Laia]*Without thights?*


 

'Now that would be a thight for thore eyeth', an English man with a lisp might say.  



LRV


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## Laia

la reine victoria said:
			
		

> 'Now that would be a thight for thore eyeth', an English man with a lisp might say.


 
  

I didn't notice I was misspelling the word...


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## jinti

I've often wondered about the parochial school girls I see on my way to work.  They have to wear short skirts -- no choice, since it's the uniform -- and the only way to individualize is to shorten them a bit further or wear different color knee socks or tights under them... or no tights at all.  I'm sure they freeze even with the tights.

But about older girls going out clubbing, well, one advantage of not wearing a coat (or carrying a purse) is that when you're in the hot, crowded environment of the club, you don't have to try to look after your belongings.


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## SpiceMan

Also I suppose british are used to cold weather (of course, if they feel it's cold, I find it stupid too.) But as the saying goes, there's no limit to stupidity.

Once here in Argentina, two dutch girls were in middle of winter (August, 0-5 celcius degrees) sunbathing. I asked them if it wasn't cold, and they nonchalantly replied "a bit, but we don't see the sun that often over the Netherlands."
What shocked me back then was they said "a bit", I thought I was about to die frozen fully dressed.


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## Chaska Ñawi

It isn't just about seduction - a lot of them really don't seem to feel the cold.

I'll be out on the yard at recess in snow pants, lined boots, duck-down parka, hat, mittens .... and all the kids 10 years and older are playing soccer or basketball - having left their outdoor clothing behind in the classrooms  -at minus 10 degrees Celcius.  

I used to think they were trying to prove how tough they were to their buddies, but by now I believe they really don't notice the cold.


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## Brioche

Back in the 60s when mini-skirts first became fashionable, it was demonstrated that girls who wore them in very cold weather got fat thighs.

It was the body's natural defence against the cold.


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## Roi Marphille

Brioche said:
			
		

> Back in the 60s when mini-skirts first became fashionable, it was demonstrated that girls who wore them in very cold weather got fat thighs.
> 
> It was the body's natural defence against the cold.


wow   isn't it Darwinism?


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## cherine

nichec said:
			
		

> Besides, the kind of guys who only pay attention to your exposed fleshs are not too trustworthy, are they?


Can't agree more. If a guy will only like me because of my body, I don't want that, thank you. He can easily get quickly more "fond" of other girls who sure look prettier. Admiration should, in my opinion, be based on more solid ground 

Chaska, the kids playing soccer or basket get hot and that's why it's logic they don't keep their outdoor clothes. But the British girls mentioned by Roi don't seem to be doing anything to fight the cold, and that is the not logic nor smart thing any person can do.


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## hess-chan

We're not all sluts, thanks. Some of us do actually wear appropriate clothing so we don't freeze to death.

Ps - Did you try the donuts while you were in Liverpool?


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## Roi Marphille

hess-chan said:
			
		

> We're not all sluts, thanks. Some of us do actually wear appropriate clothing so we don't freeze to death.
> 
> Ps - Did you try the donuts while you were in Liverpool?


 As long as I know, nobody said that you are all _sluts_. I've just reckoned that the "_chavy fashion_" is quite spread in some areas of Liverpool. 

PS:Nope, I did not try the donuts, do they worth a new _ryanairing_?


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## Isotta

nycphotography said:
			
		

> Perhaps it's because British women (particularly those young and prone to *cough*chavvish*cough* spandex wearing behavior) have absolutely no concept of fashion or style?



Lucky for us, there's no monopoly on bad taste. 

An unfortunate fashion trend at a prestigious university near Chicago (though no doubt you can find it elsewhere in the United States) among first year students consisted of a particularly formless pair of boots with a short skirt. Come December, the girls' knees were wind-burned and the boots were ruined by the salt and snow. I mean, wearing no stockings in England may be one thing, but this is _Chicago_. 

Recently I went to a dinner with an American who wore a halter dress without stockings and heeled sandals (a light wool coat), and there was snow on the ground. 

I find people in America and Canada wear sleeveless winter tops for dinners (lowcut included) and such because people heat their houses and restaurants more than they do here. From what I remember this is also true of the UK, but I could be wrong.

Z.


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## Zakalwe

Roi Marphille said:
			
		

> PS:Nope, I did not try the donuts, do they worth a new _ryanairing_?


Personnaly i'm fond of the tesco's donuts with jam sold in bags of 5. They are very cheap and quite good (except when they forget to put sugar like in the 3 bags i brought back from London this week end).
There is also the well-know donuts's store in Picadilly Circus, althought that they seem to sell more sandwiches now than donuts.

PS: About London, what is this invasion of Starbucks Coffee every 50 metres


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## hess-chan

Roi Marphille said:
			
		

> As long as I know, nobody said that you are all _sluts_. I've just reckoned that the "_chavy fashion_" is quite spread in some areas of Liverpool.
> 
> PS:Nope, I did not try the donuts, do they worth a new _ryanairing_?


My appologies, my friend was standing besides me telling me what to write (she's a lot bigger than me and very much stronger!)

This sort of fashion though is very popular especially on the Wirral, rather unfortunately for me. It is, I think, one of the main reasons I do not visit the city much. Is this kind of fashion big in other countries?

ps - the donuts bought from street stalls are, as they say, to die for.


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## geve

I noticed that "phenomenon" too, in Scotland. It seemed that generally speaking, people didn't feel the cold as much as we did. Actually, this was written in our travel guide : always wear one layer more than what the natives are wearing _(the guide was also venturing a guess, that all Scottish mothers put their babies on the balcony for naps, to get them used to the weather and make them tough Scottsmen/women)_. In our case, it was more likely two or three layers : while they (girls and boys) were walking around in t-shirts, or with a thin raincoat at best, we had 2 sweaters, a parka, hat, scarve, gloves AND we were still freezing. 

But we also noticed that at night, in pubs and discos, Scottish girls' skirts seemed indeed to lack a few inches of fabric... So we took a closer look  , and were soon able to draw a general rule from our study :
FACT : « _if a girl is not wearing a skirt way above the knees, then she's got a boyfriend (and he's in the area)_ »
It proved right every time. How convenient is that for men ? They're sure they won't waste any valuable baiting time.


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## Roi Marphille

geve said:
			
		

> But we also noticed that at night, in pubs and discos, Scottish girls' skirts seemed indeed to lack a few inches of fabric... So we took a closer look  , and were soon able to draw a general rule from our study :
> FACT : « _if a girl is not wearing a skirt way above the knees, then she's got a boyfriend (and he's in the area)_ »
> It proved right every time. How convenient is that for men ? They're sure they won't waste any valuable baiting time.


Hey geve, that's interesting   we are going somewhere...so this is like a code?
a wellcome to males-to-mate...?


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## geve

it seemed so... a "come and warm me up" invitation ?


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## la reine victoria

geve said:
			
		

> it seemed so... a "come and warm me up" invitation ?


 

It gets even worse Geve. It is not unknown for these skimpily clad girls to approach complete strangers and say  'How d'ya fancy a ******?'  

I have seen one or two BBC documentaries on this topic. The girls spole quite frankly on what they were planning for the evening. Before going 'out on the town to pull a bloke' they congregate at the home of one of the 'gang' and consume large quantities of alcohol. They then make for a club or bar where they consume even more.

With no inhibitions, and forgetting all the rules of safe sex, they have a 'one night stand' with the 'bloke they've pulled'. Pregnancy rates are high and clinics for sexually transmitted diseases are barely able to cope.

See here http://www.avert.org/stdstatisticuk.htm for the frightening statistics.

La Reine V


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## charli

Hmm, I think Brits are generally just made of tougher stuff than Mediterrean types...
Just kidding , but maybe the constant cold weather here shrinks our pain nerves (and brains),
or something...
When I was in the south of Spain, something I found similarly shocking was the way in which many young girls (and I mean pre-teens) seem to dress in a *very* provocative way. Well, I know this happens everywhere now, but it seemed almost disturbingly common there.
Anyway, I'd say these are mainly just cultural things influenced by the climate.
I think it's a bit unfair (and kind of snobbish) to automatically equate a skimpily-dressed girl (without a coat ) on a night-out with "slapper", "chav", etc,.


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## nycphotography

charli said:
			
		

> I think it's a bit unfair (and kind of snobbish) to automatically equate a skimpily-dressed girl (without a coat ) on a night-out with "slapper", "chav", etc,.


 
It's probably snobbish, but not the least bit unfair, to equate skantily dressed _with no other fashion or style clues_ with a chav.  Thats just about a textbook definition of chavette.

Well, either a chavette or a paid professional.


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## geve

Is there any chance someone could define "chav" or "chavette" for me ?  I'm beginning to get the idea but I'd like to be sure...

Wonderful link, Your Majesty, truly delightful ! 

Some 5 or 6 years ago, I went to a nightclub in Edinburgh ; I only remember the nickname that foreign students gave to it : "the Meat Market" (and it was not a "special" nightclub!)
For some girls, dancing there seemed to imply a fair amount of undressing (and since we've said they weren't wearing a lot of clothes at the beginning...) Too much flesh ? I would have to say "yes".


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## GenJen54

Hi geve,

You might try reading THIS thread about chavs.  Hope it helps!


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## Laia

cherine said:
			
		

> Can't agree more. If a guy will only like me because of my body, I don't want that, thank you. He can easily get quickly more "fond" of other girls who sure look prettier. Admiration should, in my opinion, be based on more solid ground


 
This is interesting.
Actually, if you are looking for a boyfriend, of course he must like you for something else than just your body.
But when you go out at night, when you go clubbing, you are not looking for a boyfriend. You just want to have fun, spent a good time with your friends, laugh, dance, switch off of stress, and maybe have a "ligue"/"un rollo"/"relación amorosa pasajera" ("pickup" or "to hook up with someone" in English? There is a word for "rollo" or "ligue" in English?). And yes, you expect this "ligue" to be a handsome guy. I think nobody is expecting to find his/her true love in a club. Bad choice if you expect to find your "true love" in a club. It is not impossible, but is improbable.


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## Hakro

geve said:
			
		

> Some 5 or 6 years ago, I went to a nightclub in Edinburgh ; I only remember the nickname that foreign students gave to it : "the Meat Market" (and it was not a "special" nightclub!)


Some 50 years ago there was a dancing place in Helsinki, not a nightclub, but it was nicknamed "Meat Corner". In the fifties the girls were not so lightly dressed but the objective and the end result was the same, I believe.

Nothing new under the sun.


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## GenJen54

"Meat Market" (or "Meet Market") is commonly used in the US as a term that refers to any bar, club or party where the intent is to "meet" your prospective "meat." (Sorry, had to go there). 

At "meat markets," the fare is typically the same: scantilly clad females gyrating on a dance floor trying their best to capture the attention of men, who will hopefully buy the ladies a drink. The men, of course, usually have other things on their minds.

With regard to "outer wear," where I'm from in the US, appropriate outer wear (at least a coat) is usually preferred in the winter, especially in our 30+ mph winds. Most people have either not caught onto the "trend" of *not* wearing a coat, or are too sensible to leave home without one. 

I have noticed as of late, however, that with regard to "meat market" fashion, skirts are getting increasingly shorter and tops increasingly non-existent - both in consistency and size.


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## nycphotography

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> I have noticed as of late, however, that with regard to "meat market" fashin, skirts are getting increasingly shorter and tops increasingly non-existent - both in consistency and size.


 
Of course, it's not the quantity of the flesh, but the quality.

And its

Contrast Chavvish Beyonce with Fabulous Beyonce

Then there's always you know who.

The brits can confirm or denounce my interpretation ;-)


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## Cracker Jack

Laia said:
			
		

> Gentlemen, don't be childish.
> Boys are hunting/baiting. Girls too. Cada uno tiene sus armas de seducción... jajaja
> 
> P.D.: hunting/baiting... or whatever you call it


 
Hahaha. Probably the chicks are crunching on guys and they also want to be crunched on.  It's just the law of reciprocity.


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## cherine

Laia said:
			
		

> This is interesting.
> Actually, if you are looking for a boyfriend, of course he must like you for something else than just your body.
> But when you go out at night, when you go clubbing, you are not looking for a boyfriend. You just want to have fun, spent a good time with your friends, laugh, dance, switch off of stress, and maybe have a "ligue"/"un rollo"/"relación amorosa pasajera" ....


This too is interesting 
I never had on mind this "pasajera" thing, and I didn't think (understand?) that Roi was talking about people in clubs, but .. don't know, everywhere? I sure wouldn't look for a boyfriend in a club, nor this way (exhibiting my "flesh"). Thanks Laia for clearing the picture for me


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## Laia

cherine said:
			
		

> This too is interesting
> I never had on mind this "pasajera" thing, and I didn't think (understand?) that Roi was talking about people in clubs, but .. don't know, everywhere? I sure wouldn't look for a boyfriend in a club, nor this way (exhibiting my "flesh"). Thanks Laia for clearing the picture for me


 
Wow cherine... I hope I'm not the one who is confused... I've been thinking all the time in this thread about clubbing and flirting...


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## ampurdan

Ligue= pick-up???


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## Laia

ampurdan said:
			
		

> Ligue= pick-up???


 
*ligue* _m fam (hombre)_ boyfriend
_(mujer)_ girlfriend
_(pareja ocasional)_ pickup: *vino con su último ligue,* she came with her latest man


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## Roi Marphille

Laia said:
			
		

> Wow cherine... I hope I'm not the one who is confused... I've been thinking all the time in this thread about clubbing and flirting...


Hi, a kind of.  
I was pointing the fact that many of those girls are half naked in the streets, winter time. No coats. I guess many of them are in their way to clubs and parties where this particular "_dress code_" is not a problem. 
 Some of them are dressed like this going shopping as well. 

BTW, I've been told by a female friend of mine that she was not allowed in a British club because she covered too much of her _flesh_.


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## kap

Maybe I'm just too (c)old to care. Maybe I'm just seduced by other factors. Maybe I'm just less British than I used to be. I grew up there and left 20 years ago, bored by the pub, disco, fast food mentality and routine.

All I can really add is: I find it sad that teenagers have little more to offer/crave (depending on their point of view) than square inches of pink flesh. In Italy and Switzerland they tend to keep warmer, but I hear many a girl in their 20's complaining about another phenomenon - the guys don't do the seducing any more! They leave the girls their numbers expecting to be chased up. They use white eyeliner to look good, and they shave under their arms.

I loved what she exclaimed the other day at dinner.

"Voglio un uomo che ha più peli adosso di me!"

_I want a guy with more hairs on his body than me._


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## la reine victoria

I'd like to introduce the word 'ladette' into this thread.  Ladettes dress in this way and are out to prove they are just as good(?) as the lads.  They drink beer by the pint, in quick succession, often 'down in one'.  They play snooker and darts 'down the pub', swear and belch loudly. 

There was a very good TV documentary about them last year.  You will find more details here.

http://www.itv.com/page.asp?partid=3521


LRV


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## Roi Marphille

la reine victoria said:
			
		

> I'd like to introduce the word 'ladette' into this thread. Ladettes dress in this way and are out to prove they are just as good(?) as the lads. They drink beer by the pint, in quick succession, often 'down in one'. They play snooker and darts 'down the pub', swear and belch loudly.
> 
> There was a very good TV documentary about them last year. You will find more details here.
> 
> http://www.itv.com/page.asp?partid=3521
> 
> 
> LRV


thanks LRV!
very interesting, I did not know the word but I admit that most of the girls I mentioned are in fact, ladettes i/o chavvs. 
We have a lot of British and Dutch ladettes in Barcelona on the weekends. They _ryanair_ to BCN for amazing prices. They normally gather in Irish or British pubs. They come here to celebrate a wedding or something...and oh boy! they are really scary!


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## la reine victoria

I'm surprised they know how to get to Barcelona, and that they've even heard of it!  I don't think they could find it on a map of Spain.

Yes, they are certainly* scary!  *They wouldn't think twice about throwing a well-aimed punch at any man who offended them.  


La Reine V.


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## Laia

Roi Marphille said:
			
		

> BTW, I've been told by a female friend of mine that she was not allowed in a British club because she covered too much of her _flesh_.


 
I've heard of a girl that was not allowed to enter in a club in Barcelona because she wore a long skirt. They told her that to enter, she must wear jeans/trousers or non-long skirt.
I don't know if this is a urban legend, but maybe in certain selective clubs it happens. I don't know.


----------



## blancalaw

Roi, were the girls white?  Let me explain my question.
I had a discussion with a group of black individuals from my city about the crazy things white people do (according to them) such as wear shorts in the winter.  Although being white I would never do that, I do find myself wearing a little less clothing than local habitants when I visit Florida.  (I am from the north)  This is because their winter is like our early summer.  Here in Michigan we have five seasons: spring (2 months), fall (2 months), summer (2 months), winter (2 months), and extreme winter (4 months).  Well, that is what it seems like.  Therefore when I find myself in warmer climates, I dress like the appropriate season.  But wearing shorts in freezing temperatures is just plain crazy.

Returning to what I was saying with Blacks and Whites, people have mentioned that on average Whites are more resistant to the cold than Blacks.  In other words, the darker the skin someone has, the more sensitive it is to the cold.  Does anyone agree?


----------



## timpeac

Laia said:
			
		

> I've heard of a girl that was not allowed to enter in a club in Barcelona because she wore a long skirt. They told her that to enter, she must wear jeans/trousers or non-long skirt.
> I don't know if this is a urban legend, but maybe in certain selective clubs it happens. I don't know.


 
Well, you live there Laia - is it believable? I've visited many times and I'd be gobsmacked if it were true, but you never know...


----------



## Fernando

I endorse the club policy. It is a shame that girls do not show their legs and breast. As a matter of fact, it should be compulsory.

From now on, I open a sign-list for those who agree with me. Spanish attitude is retrogade and stupid. Let us import British uses. The more naked the better.

Er, no, men should not be forced to.


----------



## Hakro

la reine victoria said:
			
		

> I don't think they could find it on a map of Spain.


Maybe they couldn't find Spain on a map of Europe?

Anyway, some twenty years ago there was a 'vogue' in the city of Tampere (not in all Finland) that young girls went dancing leaving home the _briefs_ (if this isn't the right term, I hope you'll understand; I'm no speacialist in women's clothing). I think that it was more exiting than the modern way of dressing because the boys (not me, the other boys) didn't see it directly, they had to guess.


----------



## Hakro

Fernando said:
			
		

> I endorse the club policy. It is a shame that girls do not show their legs and breast. As a matter of fact, it should be compulsory.
> 
> From now on, I open a sign-list for those who agree with me. Spanish attitude is retrogade and stupid. Let us import British uses. The more naked the better.
> 
> Er, no, men should not be forced to.


Why not men? I'm ready to show my legs and breast to girls if any of them cares to look!


----------



## Laia

blancalaw said:
			
		

> Returning to what I was saying with Blacks and Whites, people have mentioned that on average Whites are more resistant to the cold than Blacks. In other words, the darker the skin someone has, the more sensitive it is to the cold. Does anyone agree?


 
I disagree. I'm white and I don't resist the cold.



			
				timpeac said:
			
		

> Well, you live there Laia - is it believable? I've visited many times and I'd be gobsmacked if it were true, but you never know...


 
I don't know. Maybe. Someone told me about this, some years ago. I've never seen it, but I really don't know.


----------



## maxiogee

Hakro said:
			
		

> la reine victoria said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _I don't think they could find it on a map of Spain._
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe they couldn't find Spain on a map of Europe?
Click to expand...

Someone, maybe Victoria Wood, did a comedy routine about two checkout operators comparing their holidays - one said "We went to Magaluf", her colleague asked "Where is that?" and the response was "I don't know, we flew."


----------



## Hakro

maxiogee said:
			
		

> Someone, maybe Victoria Wood, did a comedy routine about two checkout operators comparing their holidays - one said "We went to Magaluf", her colleague asked "Where is that?" and the response was "I don't know, we flew."


 Great! I laughed for fifteen minutes!

Then remembered a holiday trip with some fellows around Europe a long time ago. After a couple of weeks one morning we woke up in a hotel room and I asked: "Where are we? What country, what currency?" So one of the boys went out in the corridor, came immediately back and said: "Hell, boys, we're in India!"

"How do you know?" I asked.

"There was a sign: 'WC ist auf der andere seite des Ganges'. And I know that river Ganges is in India!"


----------



## Roi Marphille

blancalaw said:
			
		

> Roi, were the girls white?
> Returning to what I was saying with Blacks and Whites, people have mentioned that on average Whites are more resistant to the cold than Blacks.  In other words, the darker the skin someone has, the more sensitive it is to the cold.  Does anyone agree?


well, they were white girls, mostly blondes. (natural and dyed)
you are probably right saying Whites resist more cold temperatures...I really don't know. I had a black girlfriend and she seemed to feel the cold more than me but I would not relate that to the skin colour. Anyway, I mentioned before that the girls did feel the cold so it seems quite clear that they were indeed suffering.


----------



## Fernando

Yes, I would expect a higher resistence from an "aryan" woman (the fatter the better) than from a "mediterranean" (or black) one, but we are saying it is impossible they can bear the temperatures.

The issue is they are ready to pass through a severe disconfort rather than:

1) To flirt ? To make love ?

or rather (my personal opinion)

2) To answer what their personal circle (female friends,specially) expect from them ?


----------



## Chaska Ñawi

I must now reveal myself (pun intended) as a base seductress, intent on luring innocent men astray with my wardrobe.

I am white, by the way, and do feel the cold... indeed, much more than the rest of my family.  In the winter I go to bed wearing sweat pants instead of pajama bottoms, heavy socks, a turtleneck AND a fleece pullover  (in my defence, we do keep our house at about 15 degrees Celcius).

Last year my students shaved my head, having raised a huge amount of money for tsunami victims, and I was so cold afterward that I took to wearing a wool hat to bed as well.

The first night I added the hat to my bedtime wardrobe, my husband looked me up and down, smirked, and said, "Oh, how you taunt me with your womanly ways!"

Pictures available as soon as I install a webcam.....snicker....


----------



## Roi Marphille

Fernando said:
			
		

> Yes, I would expect a higher resistence from an "aryan" woman (the fatter the better) than from a "mediterranean" (or black) one, but we are saying it is impossible they can bear the temperatures.
> 
> The issue is they are ready to pass through a severe disconfort rather than:
> 
> 1) To flirt ? To make love ?
> 
> or rather (my personal opinion)
> 
> 2) To answer what their personal circle (female friends,specially) expect from them ?


yes amigo! number two seems to be quite the point.


----------



## Hakro

Chaska Ñawi said:
			
		

> Pictures available as soon as I install a webcam.....snicker....


I can hardly wait for the pictures.

There is another possibility to fight the cold but it's a long story... I believe that the people living in central-heated houses do not care much about it.


----------



## Fernando

Could any woman  answer the following question: Why do they worry so much about that?

For the record: I thought you were a man, Chaska. Now I know it for sure: We are besieged in this forum.


----------



## la reine victoria

Two of my upper class, British, ant-chav, lady friends make themselves known.

http://www.digitaltoast.co.uk/albums/MiscFunnies/chavs.jpg



LRV


----------



## Hakro

la reine victoria said:
			
		

> Two of my upper class, British, ant-chav, lady friends make themselves known.
> 
> http://www.digitaltoast.co.uk/albums/MiscFunnies/chavs.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> LRV


That's what I call a decent dress! Beautiful!

Of course the chavs are a lot slower than foxes - the foxes don't want to be shot, the chavs do. And the chavs never complain.


----------



## cuchuflete

Have we changed the topic of this thread?  





			
				Chaska Ñawi said:
			
		

> In the winter I go to bed wearing sweat pants instead of pajama bottoms, heavy socks, a turtleneck AND a fleece pullover
> Last year my students shaved my head, ... I took to wearing a wool hat to bed as well.
> 
> The first night I added the hat to my bedtime wardrobe, my husband looked me up and down, smirked, and said, "Oh, how you taunt me with your womanly ways!"


Sounds like a new method of contraception


----------



## charli

Hmm, in my opinion, most of the girls that are being talked about here (i.e. British ones who wear skimpy clothes and no coats when they go for a night out) are *not *"chavs" (or any other similar term), but more usually just normal working-class girls. 
"Chavs" really *do* exist, but unfortunately as this neologism has entered the mainstream (in the last couple of years, more or less) it's kind of been hijacked by people who don't really know what it means and/or just use it indiscriminately to describe people who they consider of a lower _social strata, _let's say (you know, like those ones who supposedly can't find places on maps, etc)
The British class system is still alive and kicking, that's for sure


----------



## charli

Just to get back on-topic, although Roi mentioned he was in Liverpool, the place in the UK which is most famous for this phenomenon is somewhere even colder  ..Newcastle. Here's an article I found by an American journalist entitled "Coats Off in Newcastle!".


----------



## Hakro

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Have we changed the topic of this thread?
> Sounds like a new method of contraception


Should we open a new thread about new methods of contraception? (I have heard some.)


----------



## la reine victoria

charli said:
			
		

> Hmm, in my opinion, most of the girls that are being talked about here (i.e. British ones who wear skimpy clothes and no coats when they go for a night out) are *not *"chavs" (or any other similar term), but more usually just normal working-class girls.
> "Chavs" really *do* exist, but unfortunately as this neologism has entered the mainstream (in the last couple of years, more or less) it's kind of been hijacked by people who don't really know what it means and/or just use it indiscriminately to describe people who they consider of a lower _social strata, _let's say (you know, like those ones who supposedly can't find places on maps, etc)
> The British class system is still alive and kicking, that's for sure


 
Well let's be honest here Charli.  Where would you find a chav from the middle or upper classes?  Exactly.  As for *normal working-class girls*, this type of girl could hardly be considered normal.  They are a disgrace to 'the fair sex'.  I know many working-class girls on the Isle of Wight.  When they go out for an evening they are beautifully dressed and have decent moral standards.

The ones we are discussing, who go out wearing as little as possible, even when the weather is freezing cold, have no self respect and very low moral standards.  They are out for two things only, alcohol and men.

If you have done any travelling abroad you will know that a class system exists in just about every society.  It is alive and well in France, Italy, Spain, to name but a few.  And definitely alive and kicking in the USA.  Have you heard of Rednecks?  This site will enable you to decide which social class they are from.

http://home.att.net/~scorh/Rednecks.html

LRV


----------



## charli

Hello, Your Majesty...

_Where would you find a chav from the middle or upper classes?_

No offence, but with that statement you have kind of proved what I was saying above. A fairly typical example of chav-like behaviour would be, say, forming opinions based on what you've seen on an ITV documentary, but that doesn't necessarily mean you are from the "working classes" (whatever that really means). As I mentioned, the term "chav" is often simply misused by people who previously would have preferred more, hmm, traditional phraseology: "oik", "pleb", or whatever.

_I know many working-class girls on the Isle of Wight. When they go out for an evening they are beautifully dressed and have decent moral standards_

*Beautifully* dressed but only *decent* moral standards? Hehe, that kind of made me smile...but beauty and morality are rather subjective concepts, wouldn't you say? (rhetorical question, for the sake of this thread deviating further from the original topic).

_The ones we are discussing, who go out wearing as little as possible, even when the weather is freezing cold, have no self respect and very low moral standards. They are out for two things only, alcohol and men._

Sorry, but they are just *normal* girls. Maybe in a bygone era (when people knew their place and women couldn't even go into pubs on their own) it was less obvious, but the fact is that  most women like men and alcohol  (and, hey, they go together really well ...erm, usually).

_If you have done any travelling abroad you will know that a class system exists in just about every society. It is alive and well in France, Italy, Spain, to name but a few. And definitely alive and kicking in the USA. Have you heard of Rednecks? This site will enable you to decide which social class they are from._

Thanks, I've travelled and spent some time living abroad so I'm able to compare this country with various others based on personal experience.
I'm also well aware of what a Redneck is.

Cheers.


----------



## birdie

Me parece estúpido el hecho que alguien no se vista apropiadamente sólo por motivos estéticos, hay otras formas de atracción si tienen gusto en vestirse. Al menos, si eso es lo que están buscando hacer.


----------



## la reine victoria

Whilst respecting your right to put forward your own point of view, Charli, I'd just like to know your description of an *abnormal *girl.

Since I don't know your gender, your reply will be most interesting.

If you are a male, and have a girlfriend, would you approve of her behaving in the way this thread is discussing?

If you are a female, would you behave in this way and consider yourself normal?

'Only *decent* morals' you say with surprise.  What, in your opinion. constitutes decency?

LRV


----------



## charli

Birdie, me parece bastante puritano tu punto de vista. A fin de cuentas, la gente se puede vestir como se le de la gana (y por cualquier razón) y si su forma de vestir les resulta "inapropiada" a otros, bueno eso es su problema.


----------



## charli

Hello again, la reine, 

Thanks for respecting my right to put forward my point of view. I'd rather not get into a semantic argument about abnormal vs normal, though (especially as we are already way off-topic), and also I don't really think that my sex is relevant to the discussion.

Probably more relevant is the fact that we seem to be from quite different age-groups, which undoubtely has some influence on our differing opinions about this subject.

"Decent morals" for me don't have much to do with whether or not you wear a belt for a skirt, belch while you play pub games and have frequent casual sex... but neither would I say they are concerned with defining millions of people whose way of life you don't understand as vulgar and immoral and basically caricaturing them as brainless subhumans who more or less deserve to be shot.


The point I really wanted to make earlier is just this:
British girls who wear what the hell they like when they go out and don't bother with coats, even in cold weather (i.e. the original topic of this thread ) are most probably *not* "chavs" or any other similarly derogatory term you can invent. Are they typical? In a lot of places, yes. 

I can understand how foreign people visiting this country may find it a strange phenomenon, but (summing up) if you define the peculiarities of a different culture (whether from a different country or even within your own country, ejem) from the sole perspective of your own particular culture then you'll more than likely come to the conclusion that...[well, just read through most of the previous posts in this thread for the answer].

En fin: ¡que vivan nuestras hermosas y liberadas chicas británicas! Olé, jeje.


----------



## la reine victoria

Thanks for your non-commital reply, Charli. Your strong defence of the 'too much flesh' brigade would indicate a great difference in our ages. I was guilty of 'too much flesh' back in the swinging sixties. As an archaeologist, working in the wilds of Wiltshire and Dorset, I often wore nothing more than a bikini bottom, as did most of the other girls - apart from those whose huge bosoms interfered with their trowelling skills. Both sexes frequently sun-bathed totally naked.

Casual sex back then; yes it happened among some of my younger students who had taken the slogans 'Make love, not war' and 'Let's have a love-in' to heart. However it wasn't really 'casual' in today's meaning. Once a couple had paired up they remained together - some went on to get married (Shock, horror!) None of them had any sexually transmitted diseases and there were no pregnancies. My own partner and I stayed together for five years - it would have been for life. The reason it didn't is too complicated to relate, and irrelevant here.

Alcohol consumption? Every night! (Disgusting!). Getting to the pub usually involved a walk of a mile or so over rough terrain which was heavily decorated with 'meadow muffins' (cowpats). We soon learned to wear wellies, carrying our shoes (which complemented our smart clothes) until we reached the road. There was a mass change of footwear, wellies were dumped in the hedge ready for the return journey. 

Then serious drinking was indulged in. But nobody was found vomiting outside, there was no 'flashing' or 'mooning', which is commonplace today. Our idea of fun was to end the night back on site. In a pitch- black marquee we would pile ourselves in a heap for what was fondly known as 'a group grope'. The guiding rule was that it was 'external only'.

So we offended nobody, the police were never called to cart off a load of 'drunk and disorderlies'. Contrast today's young people who waste hours of police time with their anti-social behaviour. These are the 'too much flesh brigade' who vomit in the street, s**g in full public view, have punch-ups. And you consider this to be* normal*. Thank God femininity is still alive and well amongst what I consider to be *normal* females.

Nuff said.


La Reine V


----------



## geve

charli said:
			
		

> I can understand how foreign people visiting this country may find it a strange phenomenon, but (summing up) if you define the peculiarities of a different culture (whether from a different country or even within your own country, ejem) from the sole perspective of your own particular culture then you'll more than likely come to the conclusion that...[well, just read through most of the previous posts in this thread for the answer].


If we are to believe what forer@s have entered as their place of birth (which I tend to do, naïve as I am), there are, in this single thread, people from Spain, England, France, USA, Portugal, China, Canada, Ireland, Brazil, Australia, Egypt, Finland, Philippines, and Peru (sorry if I forgot anyone). We also have representatives of both genders, and a pretty large range of ages. 
So, which own particular culture are you talking about, exactly ?  
We're in a forum about Cultural Discussions anyway, so that's what we do : discuss cultural aspects !

_(I'm amazed at the list I've just made : hello, People of the World !  )_


(oh, and although we're not from the same country and age group, I stick by LRV : I didn't find very "normal" the statistics from post #44 !!)


----------



## Mei

Laia said:
			
		

> I've heard of a girl that was not allowed to enter in a club in Barcelona because she wore a long skirt. They told her that to enter, she must wear jeans/trousers or non-long skirt.
> I don't know if this is a urban legend, but maybe in certain selective clubs it happens. I don't know.


 
No way! Which one?! I can't believe it... I've heard of some selective clubs but this is too much! 

Mei


----------



## Laia

Mei said:
			
		

> No way! Which one?! I can't believe it... I've heard of some selective clubs but this is too much!


Maybe it's an urban legend. I heard this "story" when I was 16. Maybe the person who told me this was pulling my leg (tomándome el pelo).


----------



## Graham Butler

Sounds good to me.  Think I'll go to Liverpool for the weekend!
Seriously, we just got back from La Gomera in the Islas Canarias.  There the temperature was around 19% and the tourists were in shorts and T-shirt whilst the locals were wearing anoraks and boots.


----------



## Chaska Ñawi

la reine victoria said:
			
		

> Well let's be honest here Charli.  Where would you find a chav from the middle or upper classes?  Exactly.  As for *normal working-class girls*, this type of girl could hardly be considered normal.  They are a disgrace to 'the fair sex'.  I know many working-class girls on the Isle of Wight.  When they go out for an evening they are beautifully dressed and have decent moral standards.
> 
> The ones we are discussing, who go out wearing as little as possible, even when the weather is freezing cold, have no self respect and very low moral standards.  They are out for two things only, alcohol and men.
> 
> 
> LRV



I was under the impression that the possession of decent moral standards meant that you looked out for your friends and family, earned your money honestly, looked out for the less fortunate, etc.

I don't think that what you wear and who you choose to sleep with is an indication of your morality, any more than of your social class.

Scanty dressing and sleeping around crosses all the social boundaries, as any peek into the activities of the younger members of the British peerage will demonstrate admirably.  

Incidentally, the re-named cartoon of the Edwardian ladies doing their target practice spoke to me on several levels, perhaps not all of them intended by Victoria Regina.  

This thread started out as a question on dress codes, and has ended up demonstrating some truly depressing judgments on the morality of others.


----------



## Mei

Laia said:
			
		

> Maybe it's an urban legend. I heard this "story" when I was 16. Maybe the person who told me this was pulling my leg (tomándome el pelo).


 
Es que ya me molesta cuando no dejan entrar a alguien porque lleva bambas o camisa o porque va vestido de alguna manera, cosa que creo que es una chorrada, sólo me faltaba esto... 

Mei


----------



## Laia

Mei said:
			
		

> Es que ya me molesta cuando no dejan entrar a alguien porque lleva bambas o camisa o porque va vestido de alguna manera, cosa que creo que es una chorrada, sólo me faltaba esto...


 
Lo mejor entonces es no salir por Aribau ni "rodalies"...  .*
Será por alternativas... 

*Aunque muchas veces es inevitable acabar allí.


----------



## cirrus

Back to the no coat thing.  It has been a fixture of Newcastle nightlife since time immemorial.  I think it goes back to the attitude that wearing a scarf or gloves showed you weren't hard.  It also means that when you go into a club you don't have to waste valuable drinking time or money on a cloakroom.

It has definitely spread and come south.  In London people get away with it because the tube is rarely more than five minutes away and if you are too late for the tube you either don't care or call a cab.  

As for the sunbathing thing I can remember a wonderful juxtaposition of Egyptians wearing woolly hats, scarves and parkas on a gorgeous sunny day (admittedly it was January but a good 25 C) meanwhile a bunch of northern Europeans were clustered around the pool thinking bliss!  A chance to warm the bones in warm sun is like mannah from heaven when winter consists of months of monotonous damp and grey.


----------



## maxwels

...'Sexuality' is a morality and it's God's gift to exercise its bliss and experience the pleasure and hence must be revered with a calibre of purity but on the other hand 'sexy' is dirty.It's filthy but people often go confused with the two only to see them amid the chaos of life and misery.It's high time we better wriggle out from the stranglehold of illusion this 'sexy' has got over the humanity.The more the world becomes urban the more it charms us calling 'sexy' to be beauty when in reality it is 'dirty'..yes the world we see today tries to legitimize the myth but I suggest to stick to scriptures and ethics.It certainly overwhelms with all the buzz,glitz and glamour of being 'sexy' and yes it rocks! but alas! it land us in a big mess!

- Benjamin Maxwell


----------



## nichec

maxwels said:
			
		

> ...'Sexuality' is a morality and it's God's gift to exercise its bliss and experience the pleasure and hence must be revered with a calibre of purity but on the other hand 'sexy' is dirty.It's filthy but people often go confused with the two only to see them amid the chaos of life and misery.It's high time we better wriggle out from the stranglehold of illusion this 'sexy' has got over the humanity.The more the world becomes urban the more it charms us calling 'sexy' to be beauty when in reality it is 'dirty'..yes the world we see today tries to legitimize the myth but I suggest to stick to scriptures and ethics.It certainly overwhelms with all the buzz,glitz and glamour of being 'sexy' and yes it rocks! but alas! it land us in a big mess!





			
				maxwels said:
			
		

> - Benjamin Maxwell


 

Yeah, I often find myself staring at the models/singers in the MTV or on the photos in the magazine, thinking: Is this beautiful? I don't know if it's because I'm a woman, my ex-boyfriend always says that I'm too naive because I only look at a girl's face if I'm to judge her looks.....And not to mention their body languages in the music videos I know that they always say it's a way to represent some sort of art (by wearing almost nothing? ) And I guess some young girls just want to mimic them because they think that by looking like them, they can become a star or at least star-like one day or maybe to be on top of the fashion 


My own point of view: True beauty comes from who you are, how you feel most comfortable with yourself, how you express yourself as a woman, how you make people see the real you, not only your exposed breasts or legs but your thoughts and attitude....But well, I'm probably just old-fashioned.....


----------



## la reine victoria

maxwels said:
			
		

> ...'Sexuality' is a morality and it's God's gift to exercise its bliss and experience the pleasure and hence must be revered with a calibre of purity but on the other hand 'sexy' is dirty.It's filthy but people often go confused with the two only to see them amid the chaos of life and misery.It's high time we better wriggle out from the stranglehold of illusion this 'sexy' has got over the humanity.The more the world becomes urban the more it charms us calling 'sexy' to be beauty when in reality it is 'dirty'..yes the world we see today tries to legitimize the myth but I suggest to stick to scriptures and ethics.It certainly overwhelms with all the buzz,glitz and glamour of being 'sexy' and yes it rocks! but alas! it land us in a big mess!
> 
> - Benjamin Maxwell


 
An interesting point of view Benjamin. We seem to live in a world obsessed with sex. I dislike the words 'dirty' and 'filthy'. These words were once used by ignorant parents to their young children, causing many of them to have serious hang-ups when they became sexually active.

The sexual act, when shared by two people who have feelings of love for each other, is beyond doubt the most beautiful way of expressing those feelings.

Casual sex with a stranger, on the other hand, is devoid of all emotion and is simply a means of personal gratification. I expect this is where your adjecives 'dirty and filthy' come from. However, for those who indulge in such practices we should be careful how we regard or judge them. To them it may be perfectly acceptable - well, it obviously is otherwise they wouldn't do it.

We just have to accept that we all have different standards. It's very complex being a human being, isn't it?


LRV


----------



## cherine

cirrus said:
			
		

> As for the sunbathing thing I can remember a wonderful juxtaposition of Egyptians wearing woolly hats, scarves and parkas on a gorgeous sunny day (admittedly it was January but a good 25 C) meanwhile a bunch of northern Europeans were clustered around the pool thinking bliss! A chance to warm the bones in warm sun is like mannah from heaven when winter consists of months of monotonous damp and grey.


 Thanks Cirrus for mentioning this example, I was going to say it myself 
Yes, in Egypt we're almost always amused (some of us really "shocked") at the sight of foreign tourists wearing shorts and short sleevs... while we're "freezing" in the 15C  Yeah we're used to above 25. Even during the sunny days of winters -which are not few- we keep our "winter outfit" on, maybe by habit or by fear of weather reverse.

As for "social judgements"/opinions of girls with so few clothes, well they're mainly regarded as girls with of no much morals. The idea of "sex for one night" doesn't even exist here, and is regarded as.... (well, very very very bad and immoral thing).


----------



## bernik

_" The idea of "sex for one night" doesn't even exist here "_

Do you really believe that ?


----------



## cherine

I do.
I was and still am speaking of the general way of life in Egypt, not of the exceptions no matter how numerous they may be.
The fact that more and more people are blindly following the western model, or life style , doesn't mean that these things has already become widely practiced or accepted.
Yes, there are girls who wear few clothes, have one-night sex, drink alcohol... but they are not regarded as very respectable, unless of course among their own "community" or enviroment.


----------



## maxiogee

Ah, so it exists - but it's not "our type" of girl. Don't you believe it!


----------



## cherine

Not a matter of "type". Free sex, or extra-marital sex exists everywhere, even in the most conservative societies. The difference is that in the West it's considered fine, ok, freedom, normal.... or whatever people think of it. But here it's considered a scandal, an immoral thing.... specially that most people think religiously: "You shall not commit adultery", and its islamic equivalent.
So, girls who brag about their sexual experiences are regarded as ***


----------



## bernik

What about young men who brag about their sexual experiences.
How are they regarded ?


----------



## la reine victoria

bernik said:
			
		

> What about young men who brag about their sexual experiences.
> How are they regarded ?


 



Boasters, who have probably not had many sexual experiences.


LRV


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## Roi Marphille

bernik said:
			
		

> What about young men who brag about their sexual experiences.
> How are they regarded ?


I think this is a kind of Urban Legend. Many girls think we are all the time doing that...  but, I'd say *they* do it more than men.  
 Anyway, this is off-topic, anyone would like to start a thread on that?


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## Fernando

cherine said:
			
		

> Not a matter of "type". Free sex, or extra-marital sex exists everywhere, even in the most conservative societies. The difference is that in the West it's considered fine, ok, freedom, normal.... or whatever people think of it. But here it's considered a scandal, an immoral thing.... specially that most people think religiously: "You shall not commit adultery", and its islamic equivalent.
> So, girls who brag about their sexual experiences are regarded as ***



Free sex does not exist in the West. Maybe exists a broader freedom than in other areas, but if you have a relationship with other person you are obligued to keep sexual fidelity to him/her.

Unluckily, freedom for men is wider for men than for women, but I would not say that (for most people) you should be proud of having sexual relations cheating your wife/husband.

I am not saying that in a particular commune or group they do not practise "free sex" but in 99% of marriage if you say your partner you have had a relation he/she would probably leave you alone.

Promiscuity is maybe much tolerated than in the past, but it is not encouraged. It is more a teen attitude.


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## maxiogee

Fernando said:
			
		

> Free sex does not exist in the West. Maybe exists a broader freedom than in other areas, but if you have a relationship with other person you are obligued to keep sexual fidelity to him/her.



That's a very sweeping generalisation for anyone to make of "the West".
I don't think I would agree with you anyway.

Many, many people have more than one or two sexual relationships prior to marriage - relationships where 'sexual fidelity' wasn't even understood, let alone discussed.




> I am not saying that in a particular commune or group they do not practise "free sex" but in 99% of marriage if you say your partner you have had a relation he/she would probably leave you alone.



Again, a sweeping generalisation - and again I'd disagree. Many couples try to overcome the difficulties which arise with the infidelity of one of the partners, and many of those who try succeed.


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## nycphotography

Fernando said:
			
		

> Free sex does not exist in the West. Maybe exists a broader freedom than in other areas, but if you have a relationship with other person you are obligued to keep sexual fidelity to him/her.


 
And here I thought you were about to point out that the sex is always paid for somehow... you just have to figure out what currency is being used for the transaction


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## Roi Marphille

maxiogee said:
			
		

> Many, many people have more than one or two sexual relationships prior to marriage - relationships where 'sexual fidelity' wasn't even understood, let alone discussed.


yeah, you bet! check here.    In the news today.


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## GenJen54

*Mod Moment:* While I understand how the idea of “scantily clad women” can arouse in everyone suspicions about sexual behavior in both males and females, if I recall, the actual *TOPIC OF THIS THREAD* was that of women wearing too few clothes on cold winter nights. Hate to be snippy, or nippy for that matter, but it’s time we at least brought our libidos back in check and put clothes back on, however few, at least for this thread. 

Those wishing to discuss one night stands, and/or the number of sexual partners men and/or women may or may not have before marriage are welcome (and encouraged) to open another thread on the matter. 

It's Groovy, Baby!


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## maxiogee

Okay GenJen54 (what happened to the other 53?)

But, as a final word on the sexual mores angle, it does relate to the clothing level in as much as people seem to automatically equate a certain laxity of morals to the more scantily-clad young women.
Whilst I believe that any hetero-sexual male would find it difficult to look at a pretty young woman who was displaying herself in next-to-no clothing without having erotic thoughts about her, it is *he* who is doing the thinking - not her! Her morals may be lax *in his mind* but that's all it is, mental sex!

What I don't understand is why the generation I grew up with dressed up warmly in winter - really warmly, but now a younger generation seems to be able to tolerate the same temperatures with less clothing - and this applies to both sexes.
My only conclusion is that they spend less time out in the cold than we did. Cars were scarcer than now, buses we're heated as they had no door (the much-missed Routemaster) and there were no malls/shopping centres. You walked from shop to shop, out in the elements.
So they may be wearing less but they're not out there for long.
I'm happy to see it - there's something liberating about seeing a gaggle of teenagers in shirts and jeans which was missing from the be-hatted/scarved and coated kids of my time.


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## panjandrum

Back to my original point, about 4 million posts ago.
The real reason for the lack of outer layers is a combination of maxiogee's point, the difficulty of finding a secure place to leave the outer layers, and the revolution in the way people travel to wherever they are going.

Young women go out for the night - let's say, to a club.
They choose what they are going to wear at the club - and that choice is theirs, whatever the signals it sends.

They have to get there.
Way back then, they went on foot or by public transport.
In general, these days, they are travelling by taxi.
They are concerned about security of a warm outer layer if they wear one and bring it to the club, and they choose to travel wearing only what they will wear inside when they get there.

We need to separate these two issues, because they are completely different.
Q1 What do young women choose to wear on their way to XXXX?
The answer? As little as possible in addition to their answer to Q2
Q2 What do young women choose to wear inside XXXX?
I wouldn't dare to comment on that.


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## nichec

Well, young women like me who seldom goes to xxxx unless she doesn't have any choice (friends/boyfriend/boss/clients/colleagues insisting) because she doesn't drink or smoke and she can't stand the noise usually, yes, share a taxi with others to go to xxxx. She's very afraid of coldness, so she wears a lot (the outer layer, when it's cold), but she sure dresses up everytime when she has to go to xxxx simply because everyone else dresses up and she doesn't want to look strange (like with sneakers ), which means she has nice make up on and her hair done, and her clothes....She tries to look elegent and classic, but sometimes there aren't so many nice dresses to choose, so she has to go for something a bit "sexy" or "exposed" , and then people will start saying that "Oh, look at her dress!" like she's trying to sell something 

Believe me, she doesn't want this to happen either, and she doesn't want people to stare at her (that isn't a nice feeling at all!) But what can she do when she has to go meet some "important" people and she has to look presentable and she's too busy to spend the whole month looking for a dress?

Gentlemen, sometimes it's not because we want to show off regardless of the coldness, sometimes it's simply because we don't know what else to do


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## maxiogee

(How nice to be called a gentleman!)
Does she not have, already purchased and hanging in her wardrobe, a nice presentable "go and meet important people" outfit?
No man I know would let himself get into the position of "having nothing to wear".


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## la reine victoria

When I was young and fancy free (I can just about remember), my girlfriend and I used to go dancing most Saturday evenings in one of two, top, London dance halls, hoping to meet 'the man of our dreams'. It was 'de rigeur' that one dressed appropriately. In the cold months of winter we would select a suitable dress from our wardrobes, usually wore a cardigan or jacket over that, and then don a very smart warm coat, scarf and gloves. On arrival we would divest ourselves of our outer layers, hand them in at the cloakroom and proceed to the side of the dance floor where we would sit demurely sipping a feminine drink (not knocking back pints of beer).

However, not wishing to be off the topic of 'too much flesh' I will just say that our dresses were not what you would call 'revealing'. Girls who exposed too much flesh back then were considered to be 'cheap' or 'easy'. We waited to be asked to dance (and always were). 

In the countryside village where I now live, casual dress is the order of the day. But (referring to *Maxiogee's* post) when I am invited out to lunch or dinner by male or female friends, or when family members visit, I always have a choice of smart outfits to wear*.*

Call me 'old-fashioned' but I would consider it an insult to my friends and family if I didn't dress appropriately. Where has 'femininity' disappeared to these days?

La Reine V


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## Chaska Ñawi

la reine victoria said:
			
		

> Call me 'old-fashioned' but I would consider it an insult to my friends and family if I didn't dress appropriately. Where has 'femininity' disappeared to these days?
> 
> La Reine V



It never disappeared - it just changes its hue with each generation.

Think back to the arrival of those little muslin dresses with Empire waists and no petticoats in the Regency ... and the scandalized reaction of the preceding generations who had grown up with petticoats, panniers, brocades, wigs or powdered hair, etc.   Then jump ahead to the reaction of mid-Victorian ladies to the Edwardian fashions.  

The entire point of youth fashion is to break new ground and raise the eyebrows of one's elders (note that I don't say "elders and betters").  Skin is a new frontier.  These girls showing a lot of skin now will in their turn be disagreeing vehemently with their grandaughters' choice of clothing in 40 years.  

Come to think of it, disagreeing with your female offspring's choice of clothing is what being feminine is all about!


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## la reine victoria

> Chaska Ñawi - Come to think of it, disagreeing with your female offspring's choice of clothing is what being feminine is all about.


 
You made some very good points about perceiving others, Chaska.

In my case I had only male offspring.  My younger son went through a dreadful period of being a 'grunge' (really scruffy clothes) and growing very long dreadlocks.  He was keeping up with his peer group.

With a mother's wisdom I made no comment - I didn't want to give him the reaction he was expecting from me.  I went as far as paying for piercings in his ears, nose and eyebrows, told him how well they suited him.

I suspect that my own standards of 'taste' came into play here.  But I never once criticised him.  Our home was open house to all his 'grungy' friends.  I would often come downstairs on a Sunday morning to find quite a few sleeping 'grungies' littering the floor.  I simply cooked breakfast for them all.  However he finally threw off all parental constraint (my husband was not very tolerant) and lived outside in his van!

He is now married and a very conventional father-to-be.  


LRV


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## nichec

maxiogee said:
			
		

> (How nice to be called a gentleman!)





			
				maxiogee said:
			
		

> Does she not have, already purchased and hanging in her wardrobe, a nice presentable "go and meet important people" outfit?
> No man I know would let himself get into the position of "having nothing to wear".


 
Oh, sure she has lots of nice things hanging everywhere in her flat (and I mean everywhere ), but what if there are simply too many "occasions" to attend to in a short period of time and she doesn't want to wear the same outfit too often and she's too caught up with work to go shopping?(gentlemen, shopping is the most tiresome thing in the whole world! I'd rather spend my time reading or even taking a long walk )

So she ends up choosing something that "stops the traffic" , which comes back to the topic of this thread


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## Musical Chairs

Here, some girls my age wear Ugg boots with short skirts in the winter but not very many. I think I've seen a few not even wear pantyhose. Also, when they go to frat parties they wear summmer dresses under their coats with high heels and I think it looks strange. I think girls my age just know more about clothes that don't leave much to the imagination because that's what stores like to promote. I wouldn't dress like it's summer when it's winter though. It looks bad, the way it looks bad when you wear jeans to the opera, when you don't wear black or something similar to a funeral (well I guess this one is a bit worse), or when you overdress to a casual party.

I think it's pretty common for the guys not to wear enough on cold days either, some wear shorts and a t-shirt when there is snow outside. And if you ask them if they're cold, they say "not really." I think they want to look tough but I think it's dumb. Of course it's cold.

Edit: There are also facebook groups that make fun of people like this, but I don't think it makes them dress any differently.


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## timpeac

Musical Chairs said:


> Here, some girls my age wear Ugg boots with short skirts in the winter but not very many. I think I've seen a few not even wear pantyhose. Also, when they go to frat parties they wear summmer dresses under their coats with high heels and I think it looks strange. I think girls my age just know more about clothes that don't leave much to the imagination because that's what stores like to promote. I wouldn't dress like it's summer when it's winter though. It looks bad, the way it looks bad when you wear jeans to the opera, when you don't wear black or something similar to a funeral (well I guess this one is a bit worse), or when you overdress to a casual party.
> 
> I think it's pretty common for the guys not to wear enough on cold days either, some wear shorts and a t-shirt when there is snow outside. And if you ask them if they're cold, they say "not really." I think they want to look tough but I think it's dumb. Of course it's cold.


Where is here? You don't have your location in your profile.


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## Musical Chairs

The US.  The East coast, to be more specific.

Edit: I thought they only had frat parties in the US...


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