# Phonetic (ir)regularity of Turkish



## imploder

Hi, as you see, I'm new here. I've seen Turkish mentioned as a very regular language ('the most regular in the world') and it really seems to be - at least grammatically. However it has a somewhat obscure stress pattern. Is the stress in Turkish simply unpredictable (and thus irregular), or is there a clear system, just more complex than fixed stress? Could you please explain how it works? 

Another thing is the voicing of final consonants <p t k ç> to <b d ğ c> when adding a suffix beginning with a vowel. Is the rule that monosyllables (such as _süt_ -> _sütü_, _gök_ -> _gökü_) don't undergo this change while other words (such as _kitap_ -> _kitabı_, _sepet_ -> _sepedi_) do? Are there any exceptions? 

I'd also like to ask about the letter ğ. Is it true that it stays the voiced velar fricative [G] in eastern dialects, as written here: realturkiye.blogspot.com/2007/02/yogurt-turkish-invention.html _(there is a limit of 30 posts to post links so sorry for a non-automatic link)_? Is it [G] in all positions (i.e. before a consonant or ending the word as well), or only between vowels and it lengthens the preceding vowel elsewhere, or something else?


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## mrayp

_gök_ -> _gö_ğ_ü, __sepet_ -> _sepeti_


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## Munir Cem

imploder said:


> (...)
> 
> I'd also like to ask about the letter ğ. Is it true that it stays the voiced velar fricative [G] in eastern dialects, as written here: realturkiye.blogspot.com/2007/02/yogurt-turkish-invention.html _(there is a limit of 30 posts to post links so sorry for a non-automatic link)_? Is it [G] in all positions (i.e. before a consonant or ending the word as well), or only between vowels and it lengthens the preceding vowel elsewhere, or something else?


 
It is better to consider "ğ" as a totally different letter: To my knowledge, there seems to be no relation between "g" and "ğ" (except the pictorial similarity). So "ğ" is not like the "é" or "ô" of French, for there is more than the addition of an accent to the letter "g". 

As you mentioned, its function is to lengthen the preceding vowel. It can be both between vowels, or between a vowel (preceding the "ğ") and a consonant: 

Kitabı okuyacağız. [:_We will read the book._]
İpi masaya bağladın mı? [:_Did you tie the rope to the table?_]

p.s. Bear in mind that "ğ" is sometimes the substitute of the letter "k" - that is, when a suffix whose first letter is a vowel is to be added to a word actually ending with a "k":

(_mrayp_'s example above) gök -> göğü (the accusative of "gök" [:_sky_] becomes "göğü")
gel-ecek-iz [(come-will-we) : _we will come_] -> geleceğiz


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## imploder

Munir Cem said:


> It is better to consider "ğ" as a totally different letter: To my knowledge, there seems to be no relation between "g" and "ğ" (except the pictorial similarity). So "ğ" is not like the "é" or "ô" of French, for there is more than the addition of an accent to the letter "g".


It looks you misunderstood me. I do know "ğ" is a different letter from "g" and it does not represent the same sound. Capital [G] in X-SAMPA is a velar _fricative_, while the velar _stop_ is [g] (that's the pronunciation of normal "g" without accent - the voiced counterpart of [k]). A stop closes the flow of air, while a fricative lets the air go through a narrow space, creating a friction. So I know that while p->b t->d ç->c means simply making the consonant voiced, the k->ğ change it is not exactly the same process (it would be only if it changed to "g" without that diacritic). 

My question about the change of <p t k ç> to <b d ğ c> when adding a suffix beginning with a vowel was if it is predictable and what is the rule to determine whether to change the consonant (as in _gök_) or not (as in _süt_). I have found a page (turkishlanguage.co.uk/conmut01.htm) that says single-syllable words don't change the final consonant and others do, and there is a list of exceptions from the rule. In my first post here I just came across two irregular ones. Are there many exceptions? Those lists are not comprehensive, for instance _sepet_ is not there (what's interesting with this word is that I have a very old book where _sepet_ is used as an example word of how the consonant change happens - that it becomes _sepedi_. so it's wrong). 

Changing the final consonant when a suffix is added is very common in Czech (my native language) as well. For example when forming plurals in the nominative case: 
_ptá*k*_ "bird" -> _ptá*c*i_ "birds" 
_hro*ch*_ "hippopotamus" -> _hro*š*i_ "hippopotamuses" 
_dokto*r*_ "doctor" -> _dokto*ř*i_ "doctors"
The change in this class of nouns happens only if they are alive (actually grammatically animate - in Czech this excludes plants), so for example _há*k*_ "hook" being inanimate becomes _há*k*y_ without the change (i/y are pronounced the same and only change the pronunciation of some preceding consonants - not these used here). In some words along with it also a vowel is left out: _křeče*k*_ "hamster" -> _křeč*c*i_ "hamsters" ("e" is left out). 

X-SAMPA is a phonetic alphabet like IPA made to be easy to type on computer with just the basic character set. Sorry to confuse you with it, perhaps it's not so much known, so I will use IPA instead. The IPA symbol for a velar fricative is [ɣ] (see: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_velar_fricative). In the table of examples on that Wikipedia page, Turkish word "ağaç" is mentioned, with the note "certain dialects". Supposedly the dialects where "ğ" is pronounced [ɣ] are the eastern dialects (I don't know if this is correct, and if it means it is pronounced so only between vowels - as in "ağaç" - or elsewhere too).

I was asking about this, is "ğ" pronounced for example in the following words
a) as lengthening the preceding vowel?
b) as the fricative or approximant (kind of "weak fricative") [ɣ] or some other consonant?
and how it varies among dialects (the eastern retaining the historical [ɣ]?)

between vowels: _değil_, _uğur_, _göğü_ - [deɣil], [uɣuɾ], [gœɣy] - or (only lengthening as you suggest) [de:il], [u:uɾ], [gœ:y] 
before a consonant: _öğretmek_, _iğne_, _ağmak_ - [œɣɾetmek], [iɣne], [aɣmak] - or (only lengthening as you suggest) [œ:ɾetmek], [i:ne], [a:mak] 
ending a word: _dağ_, _çığ_, _iğ_ - [daɣ], [t͡ʃɨɣ], [iɣ] - or (only lengthening as you suggest) [da:], [t͡ʃɨ:], [i:] 
?

I thought Turkish is one of the languages where vowels don't occur together and they are always divided by a consonant. This is mostly true for Czech words too, except for some vowel combinations in loanwords (but often one of them is pronounces as a glide and epenthetic consonants are used). Lengthening the vowel before "ğ" in all positions means that whenever "ğ" appears between vowels, these two vowels are next to each other, one long and one short, not divided by anything.


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## ckaramursel

imploder, as for the stress, according to wikipedia it is usually on the last syllable:

"exceptions include some suffix combinations and loanwords, particularly from Italian and Greek, as well as many proper names. While such loanwords are usually stressed on the penultimate syllable ([ɫoˈkanta] _lokanta_ "restaurant" or [isˈcele] _iskele_ "quay"), the stress of proper names is less predictable ([isˈtanbuɫ] _İstanbul_, [ˈaŋkaɾa] _Ankara_)."

but of course, it is hard to identify those suffix combinations, loan words and then guess where they are stressed. so, yes, it's irregular and unpredictable.

as for the eastern dialects, it is true that in some instances connecting ğbecomes hard g or something close arabic "ghayn." i don't think it applies when ğ appears at the end of the word, unless it takes a suffix. but as you can imagine, there's not one unity of eastern dialects, the words may differ in how they sound from one village to the other.

i think ğ is still audible even in standard modern turkish, very very soft version of ghayn so it does more than just lengthening the preceeding wovel.


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## Edguoglitigin

I think situation of  the "ğ" consonant in the turkish which is spoken in Turkey is complex a bit.  I agree  ckaramursel  with some  exceptions.  For  instance  if we deal with the word "dağ", i am pretty sure that "ğ" consonant end of the word is not pronounced right now in standard Turkish. It actually is pronounced with long vowel as "daa". And with position suffixes 

daa+da (locative), daa+dan (abltative), daa (dative) but when its used with accusative suffixe it keeps the ğ  even if it is very soft (dağ+ı) because it is difficult to pronounce two vowels consecutively if they are not the same vowels. The ğ consonant leads to happen different situations. In the word "değil", there are some changings as different one another:

I. değil > deyil (that its also in this form in Azerbaijani),
II. değil > diğil > diil
III. değil > değel > deel

We can see that the ğ consonant can disappear when its between two same vowels. 

to be contunied... [i am very sleepy  ]


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## avok

imploder said:


> However it has a somewhat obscure stress pattern. Is the stress in Turkish simply unpredictable (and thus irregular), or is there a clear system, just more complex than fixed stress? Could you please explain how it works?
> 
> *The stress in Turkish is fixed. However there are some exceptions: the names of the cities etc.*
> 
> Another thing is the voicing of final consonants <p t k ç> to <b d ğ c> when adding a suffix beginning with a vowel. Is the rule that monosyllables (such as _süt_ -> _sütü_, _gök_ -> _gökü_) don't undergo this change while other words (such as _kitap_ -> _kitabı_, _sepet_ -> _sepe*t*i_) do? Are there any exceptions?
> 
> *Yes, there are some exceptions but I don't know the rule. For example "sepet" does not undergo this change unlike what you said.*
> 
> I'd also like to ask about the letter ğ. Is it true that it stays the voiced velar fricative [G] in eastern dialects, as written here: real Is it [G] in all positions (i.e. before a consonant or ending the word as well), or only between vowels and it lengthens the preceding vowel elsewhere, or something else?
> 
> *Well it's true that "ğ" lengthens the preceding vowel but still "ğ" is a very soft "voiced velar fricative" in Standard Turkish. So "dağ" is not necessarily pronounced as "daa" but as "da(ğ)" (a soft voiced velar fricative) Whereas in some local dialects, it is harder i.e. a real voiced velar fricative and mostly (but necessarily) in the east. In** Azerbaijani it is a true voiced velar fricative and they always pronounce "ğ", as far as I know. There is a dialect continuum between Turkish and Azerebaijani so it is no surprise that the people in the east* *have "voiced velar fricative"* *as in Azerbaijani (unlike in modern Turkish where "ğ" is rather* *light) And in some dialects people replace some "ğ"s with "g".*
> *And also in standard Turkish, sometimes "ğ" is pronounced as "y"! ex: eğlence: pronounced as eylence. But I dont know why.*


 


imploder said:


> I was asking about this, is "ğ" pronounced for example in the following words
> a) as lengthening the preceding vowel?
> b) as the fricative or approximant (kind of "weak fricative") [ɣ] or some other consonant?
> and how it varies among dialects (the eastern retaining the historical [ɣ]?)
> 
> *This is how I pronounce those words*
> 
> *I use (ğ) to mean a soft voiced velar fricative*
> 
> between vowels: _değil: *deyil* _, _uğur: *u(ğ)ur*_, _göğü: *gö(ğ)ü*_ - [deɣil], [uɣuɾ], [gœɣy]*I cant see the symbols they look like empty boxes *-
> or (only lengthening as you suggest) [de:il], [u:uɾ], [gœ:y] *yes, sometimes/most of the time, we pronounce them like these: i.e. only lengthening.*
> 
> 
> before a consonant: _öğretmek: *ööretmek*_, _iğne: *iine/iyne/i(ğ)ne*_*,* _ağmak?* I guess you mean* "ağlamak" :*a(ğ)lamak*_ - [œɣɾetmek], [iɣne],- or (only lengthening as you suggest) [œ:ɾetmek], [i:ne],
> 
> ending a word: _dağ:*daa/da(ğ)*_*,* _çığ: *çıı/ çı(ğ)* /_, _iğ_ - *? there is no "iğ" in Turkish*[daɣ], [t͡ʃɨɣ], [iɣ] - or (only lengthening as you suggest) [da:], [t͡ʃɨ:], *as you can see both is possible. *
> ?
> 
> I thought Turkish is one of the languages where vowels don't occur together and they are always divided by a consonant. This is mostly true for Czech words too, except for some vowel combinations in loanwords (but often one of them is pronounces as a glide and epenthetic consonants are used). Lengthening the vowel before "ğ" in all positions means that whenever "ğ" appears between vowels, these two vowels are next to each other, one long and one short*?*, not divided by anything.
> *Yes, so, if "ğ" is used only to lengthen, then vowels occur* *together!. But both vowels are short. They become long when pronounced together. Ex: "dağ" if you pronounce dağ as "daa" then two short "a" s make a single long "a"*


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## ateaofimdomar

imploder said:


> Another thing is the voicing of final consonants <p t k ç> to <b d ğ c> when adding a suffix beginning with a vowel. Is the rule that monosyllables (such as _süt_ -> _sütü_, _gök_ -> _gökü_) don't undergo this change while other words (such as _kitap_ -> _kitabı_, _sepet_ -> _sepedi_) do? Are there any exceptions?


 
Hi,
Having studied Turkish myself as a foreigner, I haven't been able to find a rule regarding this particular grammatical phenomenon in any book that I've read. 

What I've noticed, though, is that loan words from other languages (e.g. _kitap_ from Arabic, _mikrop_ from Greek via French) that end in strong sound consonants in their language of origin (_kitaab, microbe_) tend to lose their strong consonant and replace it with another (p, in this case). However, when a vowel ending is added, the strong consonant returns. 

If a rule does exist, I'd like to know, too!


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## Revontuli

According to a web-site, as ''sepet'' is a loan word, it's not subject to consonant change. There are other words out of this rule :

  sepet-i, sanat-ı, devlet-in, millet-e...

It's another question why ''kitap'' is not in this list though it's a loan word as well. But, I've realized that pronouncing ''sepedi'' is more difficult than ''sepeti'' while it's the same for ''kitapı'' and ''kitabı''. 

_Most_ of the single-syllable words are exempt from this rule. 

But this is a  bit complicated and difficult. We-sometimes- can't have a fixed rule as the language, Turkish, has a long history and were under the influence of other languages at times.


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