# BCS: (free?) formation of possessive adjectives



## sesperxes

I’d need some help with possessive adjectives.

1) When  we deal with Serbocratian personal names and surnames, it seems that we can freely create them, following the fonetic rules that we can find in a good grammar ( Marko>Markov, Dimitrije>Dimitrijev, Marija>Marijin and Andrić>Andrićev, Krleža>Krležin, Tesla>Teslin, Bregovićc>Bregovićev, Bano>Banov and so on). 
Can we ceate so “freely” possesive adjectives from foreign names and surnames (I try to do it in Croatian, to show better the original name: Antonio>Antoniov, Carmen>Carmenev,  Antoine>Antoinov, Marcel>Marcelev, Nelson>Nelsonov and Johnson>Johnsonov,  Bush>Bushev, Picasso>Picassov, El Assad>El Assadov...)?

2) Another group of names with this kind of adjectives are those of individuals in the family (brat>bratov, mama>mamin, unuk>unukov, baka>bakin...). Can we create them with other names of people (novinar>novinarov, kralj>kralev, predsednik>predsednikev, lekar>lekarov, ribar>ribarov..) I don’t  find any of them in my dictionaries.

3) Finally, Mrs Alexander tells us about sunce>sunčev (that is not a person): does it mean that may I create adjectives from any noun? (mesecev, autov, aeroplanov, aerodromov,  vozov, stolov, vratin, ogledalov...and so on? (obviously, in the dictionaries these words do not appear!). 


As you all can deduce, in my language this kind of adjectives do not exist (and I find them very practical indeed) and now I’m like the movie: lost in translation. 

Thanks.


----------



## Gnoj

Suffix *-ev/-ov* is used for *possessors *of *masculine *and* neuter* gender:
Marko - Markov, Antoni(j)o - Antoni(j)ev, Picasso - Picassov, 

Suffix *-in *is for *possessors *of *masculine *and* neuter* gender:
Carmen - Carmenin, Marija - Marijin, Jelena - Jelenin


Another thing is the gender of the *possessions* themselves:

*possessor*: Marko - masculine:
*possessions*:
brod (masculine singular) => Mark*ov* brod
slika (feminine singular) = > Mark*ova *slika
lice (neuter singular) = > Mark*ovo *lice
brodovi (masculine plural) => Mark*ovi* brodovi
slike (feminine plural) => Mark*ove* slike
lica (neuter plural) => Mark*ova* lica
--------------------------------------------

*possessor*: Marija - feminine:
*possessions*:
brod (masculine singular) => Marij*in* brod
slika (feminine singular) = > Marij*ina *slika
lice (neuter singular) = > Mari*jino *lice
brodovi (masculine plural) => Mari*jin**i* brodovi
slike (feminine plural) => Mari*jin**e* slike
lica (neuter plural) => Mari*jin**a* lica


----------



## Tassos

sesperxes said:


> 1) ... Can we ceate so “freely” possesive adjectives from foreign names and surnames (I try to do it in Croatian, to show better the original name: Antonio>Antoniov, Carmen>Carmenev,  Antoine>Antoinov, Marcel>Marcelev, Nelson>Nelsonov and Johnson>Johnsonov,  Bush>Bushev, Picasso>Picassov, El Assad>El Assadov...)?



Of course you can. They are regularly in use in various newspapers of the region (I remember a thread in here, where someone was asking if the correct form is *Beyoncein* or *Beyoncin* but I can't find it right now)



sesperxes said:


> 2) ... I don’t  find any of them in my dictionaries.



None of the dictionaries that I use (hjp, recnik, wiktionary) mention them, so you just have to think of them as a form of the initial word (like the cases)



sesperxes said:


> 3) Finally, Mrs Alexander tells us about sunce>sunčev (that is not a person): does it mean that may I create adjectives from any noun? (mesecev, autov, aeroplanov, aerodromov,  vozov, stolov, vratin, ogledalov...and so on? (obviously, in the dictionaries these words do not appear!).



I remember the example in her book and it's my question too, as I can't remember ever finding a word of this type in the various internet portals.



sesperxes said:


> As you all can deduce, in my language this kind of adjectives do not exist (and I find them very practical indeed) and now I’m like the movie: lost in translation.


 
They are not only practical, they are used a lot and sometimes it is even obligatory to use them. Just look here (begin from post #11).


----------



## sesperxes

Tassos said:


> None of the dictionaries that I use (hjp, recnik, wiktionary) mention them, so you just have to think of them as a form of the initial word (like the cases)
> 
> 
> Evharistó polí! That was the point: I must think about them as another form of the word, along with cases! (that obviously, we don't find in dictionaries).
> 
> Thanks.


----------



## Duya

Possessives generally work with all animate nouns, so all of your examples under 1) and 2) above are OK. You missed a suffix or two (-ov instead of -ev or vice versa), but that's beside the point.

However, they do not work with general inanimate nouns, such as _auto, stol, knjiga, ljubav_ etc, where one must use genitive to express relationship. An exception are celestial bodies, most of which are named after deities anyway, but _sunčev, mesečev_ and _zemljin_ are not, and those possessives are OK.

Another large class of nouns that can have possessive are company and institution names, so we have _Opelov, Microsoftov, Boeingov, Udbin, Nasin..._

Apart from these proper possessives, we also have adjectives on _-čki_ and _-ski_ (actually, it is originally _-ьski_), which, when applied on toponyms, work similarly as possessives (_španski, beogradski, ..._) and are usually not indicated in dictionaries. Those can also be formed of some other nouns, to express a "like", "kind of" or "follower of" relationship: _komunistički, martovski, šekspirovski,..._


----------



## sesperxes

Thanks, Duya: it's amazing the use of this possessive, and I understand that's  common factor in all Slavic languages, isn't it? 

I'd dare to put a last question about this topic: what do we do with Slavic names that somehow are already possessives (or, at least, to my ears they sound as if they were so): Popov -> Popovov, Alpatov->Alpatovov, Garbačev -> Garbačevev.. Do we need the "second" possesive or can we avoid repeating it?

Once again, thanks.


----------



## Duya

If I recall correctly, possesives are a Common Slavic feature, but they aren't equally preserved in all Slavic languages. In modern Russian, they're virtually extinct (in favor of genitive), and they're likely most used in BCS (which disfavors possesive genitive, as we've seen before). I think we have a cross-language thread  about them.

Names on -ov and -ev receive suffix -ljev: _Gorbačovljev, Bazedovljeva bolest_. Names on -av can receive both -ov or -ljev: _Časlavov/Časlavljev_. Surnames on -ski can't make possessive: _romani Dostojevskog_, not *_Dostojevskijevi romani_.

P.S. This thread on the subject is in Russian subforum, but it touches on other Slavic languages. I haven't found a thread on the topic in this subforum.


----------



## Duya

P.P.S. also, the feature only works for simple nouns, not for noun phrases: thus, it's only _Markova ruka_ (and not *_ruka Marka_), but only _ruka Svetog Marka_ (not *_Sveti Markova ruka_ or like).


----------



## sesperxes

Thanks to all of you: now this topic is pretty clear!


----------

