# when to use "the" in front of words ?



## [Marc]

Hello,

Well... it's in the title... I get lost often with the, which is not used exactly at the same time in french and in english. Would someone know the rules ? or where to find them ?

Thanks !


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## Agnès E.

Bonjour Marc,
I a moving your thread to our English Only forum, where it belongs as it is not a request for translation. 



PS: Have you tried a search in English Only forum?


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## [Marc]

actually, no... thanks for the advice and the moving !


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## .   1

I doubt that there is any hard and fast rule.
This thing seems to be so variable in English that it seems to be taken on almost a case by case basis.
If you have any examples I would be very happy to help.

.,,


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## okey-dokey

. said:


> I doubt that there is any hard and fast rule.
> This thing seems to be so variable in English that it seems to be taken on almost a case by case basis.
> If you have any examples I would be very happy to help.
> 
> .,,


 
If you refer to a grammar targetted on English learners at intermediate level or above you'll find quite a few "rules" or guidelines. There are exceptions, of course, but you certainly do not have to take it on a case by case basis.


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## .   1

okey-dokey said:


> If you refer to a grammar targetted on English learners at intermediate level or above you'll find quite a few "rules" or guidelines. There are exceptions, of course, but you certainly do not have to take it on a case by case basis.


I am pretty confident that you will encounter some difficulty in formulating a rule for this situation.
We have just had quite a long discussion relating to The Hague and the rules displayed were at best vague.
I await further (or is that farther) elaboration with interest.

.,,


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## okey-dokey

[Marc] was asking for help on the general use of _the_. Throwing one difficult case into the arena and stumbling around in circles on it hardly helps a learner. Millions and millions learn English with the help of guidelines or "rules" - why not point him in the right direction?


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## .   1

okey-dokey said:


> [Marc] was asking for help on the general use of _the_. Throwing one difficult case into the arena and stumbling around in circles on it hardly helps a learner. Millions and millions learn English with the help of guidelines or "rules" - why not point him in the right direction?


Because I just don't know any rules.  I learned to speak English at my parent's knee and say things because they sound right.
If you would suggest a rule or two I would be only too happy to discuss such a rule and I'll try real hard to not come up with too many ridiculous extreme examples.

.,,


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## Porteño

These general rules may help you. They are taken from my own notes to students.

*2. **The Definite Article*

2.1 The definite article is _´*the*´_ and is used for specific or unique items:

*the* sky_ *the* _English book *the* man in *the* white hat

2.2 It is also used before: 
a) superlatives: Mount Everest is *the*_ highest _mountain in the world.
b) the names of seas, rivers, mountain ranges (not individual ones):
*The*_ River Nile_ is in Egypt.
c) the plural names of countries:
Many people like *the*_ United States_.

2.3 The definite article is *NOT* used before
a) the names of towns, countries and proper names (i.e. the names of people):London, Argentina, Mr. Jones 
b) the names of meals:
Breakfast, lunch, dinner, etc.

2.4 The definite article is omitted before the following when these places are visited or used for their *primary* *purpose*:

_Home, church, market, school, hospital, court, prison, work, sea, bed, _
I go to _church_ every Sunday. (to attend Mass) 
He goes to_ work_ by bus.

When these places are visited or used for *other than their* *primary* *purpose*, the definite article *IS* used:

I´m going to *the *_hospital_ to visit a friend.


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## .   1

That is a most excellent piece of work.
Porteno you must be the kind of teacher who students enjoy being taught by. 
The only question I have for you is _sea_.
I always go down to the sea or the ocean.
Men have been going down to the sea in ships for centuries.
I think that sea pretty much always is referred to as the sea.

Other than that one tiny quibble I think you have a very clear explanation.

.,,


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## Porteño

Thanks ..., you're quite right, but I couldn't include every possibility, of which I'm sure there are many more, it would be too confusing at Elementary Level for which these notes are primarily intended.


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## elroy

It should be pointed out that in American English it's always "the hospital" even if you're going there to be hospitalized.


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## .   1

elroy said:


> It should be pointed out that in American English it's always "the hospital" even if you're going there to be hospitalized.


This odd one has been debated to within a picometre of its existence.
It is sometimes the hospital and sometimes hospital in Australia.

.,,


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## Porteño

Hi ..., thinking about your comment I went back over the notes and realized I had covered that point in Note 2.1 when I said that 'the' was used for *unique* items and quoted '*the* sky'. This same point covers the sea and the ocean.


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## .   1

You probably need to edit 2.4 in that case.

.,,


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## Hotmale

Porteño said:


> 2.3 The definite article is *NOT* used before
> a) the names of towns, countries and proper names (i.e. the names of people):London, Argentina, Mr. Jones
> b) the names of meals:
> Breakfast, lunch, dinner, etc.



Hello,

For specific reference meals take "the" : "*The* lunch they prepared for my birthday was stunning." Sometimes even "a" is possible: "I had *a* dinner with the Prime Minister."


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## sound shift

In my experience French speakers have great difficulty with the English omission of the definite article before a noun used non-specifically:
When attempting to say in English _I don't like tomatoes _(in general)_, _French speakers often say,_ I don't like the tomatoes_, because this replicates French usage_. _This misuse of the definite article causes the English speaker to believe that the French speaker is referring to particular tomatoes (those on the plate, the ones on sale in the shop, etc.), so the English speaker asks, _Which tomatoes?_, which confuses the French speaker.


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## Porteño

. said:


> You probably need to edit 2.4 in that case.
> 
> .,,


 
Can you elaborate? I don't follow you.


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## Porteño

Hotmale said:


> Hello,
> 
> For specific reference meals take "the" : "*The* lunch they prepared for my birthday was stunning." Sometimes even "a" is possible: "I had *a* dinner with the Prime Minister."


 
That is covered by point 2.1 - *specific* items.


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## Hotmale

Porteño said:


> That is covered by point 2.1 - *specific* items.



"The lunch" is covered in 2.1 not "a lunch"  .
Besides, superlatives don't always take "the". 
Consider this sentence: "Sherry is best when lightly chilled".


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## Porteño

Hotmale said:


> "The lunch" is covered in 2.1 not "a lunch"  .
> Besides, superlatives don't always take "the".
> Consider this sentence: "Sherry is best when lightly chilled".


 
I think you are nitpicking. Remember that I said those notes were intended for Elementary students, not Advanced learners. 

'a' lunch is so unusual that it should not even be considered by any general rules. I am not even sure that it is correct to say 'I had a lunch with'. One would normally say 'I had lunch with'.

Regarding superlatives: Perhaps I could have said 'superlative adjectives when used before nouns', but I feel that the example you gave, while being perfectly valid, is merely one small exception to a generally accepted rule. 

If you are a teacher you should know that, especially in English, it is sometimes necessary to establish a 'firm' rule for Beginners and then modify it as they progress so as to avoid confusion. A classic example of this is the use of the auxiliary verb 'do' which, for beginners one emphasizes its use only in the interrogative and the negative to try and instill it into their minds. Much later on, one can admit to its use in the affirmative in special circumstances. If this were not done, you would have the students using 'do' for everything!


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## Hotmale

Porteño said:


> If you are a teacher you should know that, especially in English, it is sometimes necessary to establish a 'firm' rule for Beginners




Porteño, I am flattered  . No, I am not, I don't even consider myself an Advanced learner.



Porteño said:


> 'a' lunch is so unusual that it should not even be considered by any general rules. I am not even sure that it is correct to say 'I had a lunch with'. One would normally say 'I had lunch with'.



I've been told that "a" before the meals is perfectly OK, when a given meal is a formal one, e.g. one with a mayor, diplomat, the Prime Minister.



Porteño said:


> Regarding superlatives: Perhaps I could have said 'superlative adjectives when used before nouns', but I feel that the example you gave, while being perfectly valid, is merely one small exception to a generally accepted rule.


One exception makes a difference. However, I don't think it's a question of "one small exception". It is so common to find sentences like: "She was oldest", "He was most hard-working" that everyone who wishes to learn English should be aware of them.
"He was most hard-working" means that he was _very _hard working.
"She was oldest" (even without "the")  still means that she was the oldest.

As to the example with sherry, here you don't compare sherry to other drinks, but you compare its qualities.
"Sherry is best when sereved chilled" is very different from:
"Sherry is the best drink in the world".

As to my nitpicking, I wish all people who respond to my questions were giving attention to details. Without such attention, I would never know that Australians commonly refer to Alice Springs as The Alice.

Have a nice day,
Hotmale


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## sted81

As a native of the UK I can honestly say I have never used the phrase.

"I had a lunch with....."

The correct useage would be

"I dined with the mayor." or "I had lunch with the mayor."

Looking at some of the answers above, it does seem that this topic has kind of gone off track. Marc was looking for a basic answer which porteno covered excellently.


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## hp83

Hi!!!
The thing about "the" tomatoes is very interesting. It also happens to Spanish people. It is interesting to specify that in English "the" is omitted when talking in general, for example:

Children are very naughty (children in general)
The children I met yesterday were very naughty (ONLY the children I met yesterday, not all of them)

I hope native speakers could tell if that's right and correct me if I'm wrong!


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## Hotmale

sted81 said:


> As a native of the UK I can honestly say I have never used the phrase.
> 
> "I had a lunch with....."
> 
> The correct useage would be
> 
> "I dined with the mayor." or "I had lunch with the mayor."
> 
> Looking at some of the answers above, it does seem that this topic has kind of gone off track. Marc was looking for a basic answer which porteno covered excellently.



Yes, I agree. I just threw in my 2 cents in case somebody might get interested in some details  .


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## Porteño

Quote:
One exception makes a difference. However, I don't think it's a question of "one small exception". It is so common to find sentences like: "She was oldest", "He was most hard-working" that everyone who wishes to learn English should be aware of them.
"He was most hard-working" means that he was _very _hard working.
"She was oldest" (even without "the") still means that she was the oldest.
______________________________________________________________

I'm sorry to have to point out Hotmale, that your examples are incorrect:

She was *the* oldest.
He was *the* most hard-working.

Under *no* circumstances can *the* be omitted in these sentences.

This is precisely why I said that the structure in your previous thread is uncommon.

However, contrary to what has been expressed, I don't think the topic has gone off track. All objective and constructive comments relating to the matter in question are perfectly valid and, if among them appeared something which I could usefully use to improve my notes (nothing is perfect) they would be most welcome. Thanks for all the input and I hope that marc feels he is now well informed, which after all was the object of all this exercise.


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## Hotmale

Porteño said:


> I'm sorry to have to point out Hotmale, that your examples are incorrect:
> 
> She was *the* oldest.
> He was *the* most hard-working.
> 
> Under *no* circumstances can *the* be omitted in these sentences.



I am in no position to argue, but I took these sentences from my grammar book .


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## Porteño

Then I suggest you change your grammar book. It would be most interesting to know who the author was and who published it.


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## .   1

Porteño said:


> Can you elaborate? I don't follow you.


In 2.4 you state;

2.4 The definite article is omitted before the following when these places are visited or used for their *primary* *purpose*:

_Home, church, market, school, hospital, court, prison, work, *sea*, bed, _
I go to _church_ every Sunday. (to attend Mass) 
He goes to_ work_ by bus.
 
I think that it would be easier for the learners' if you remove sea from 2.4 as it clashes with your interpretation of 2.1.
 
.,,


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## .   1

Porteño said:


> I'm sorry to have to point out Hotmale, that your examples are incorrect:
> 
> She was *the* oldest.
> He was *the* most hard-working.
> 
> Under *no* circumstances can *the* be omitted in these sentences.


"Under no circumstances" is a very dangerous statement to make in relation to any rule of English. I am not sure if there exists even one rule relating to the English language that does not have exceptions.

He was most hardworking and his garden displayed the fruits of his labour.

He was most hardworking is a general comment about a person.
He was the most hardworking is waiting for a descriptive to tell us what he was the most hardworking at doing.

He was the most hardworking drover I have ever known.
He was most hardworking and well respected by all.

.,,


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## emma42

Hello Hotmale.  Your sentence is a superlative for "sherry", as in "the best sherry is made from XXX grapes", but  "best" here is an adverb, so it's related to "is" rather than "sherry".


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## Porteño

I know that to say under no circumstances is _risqué _but sometimes one has to be assertive. I agree that for every rule in English there are a thousand exceptions! God Bless the language! However, I do not agree with your examples, although perhaps it is an expression used 'down under'. In BE I don't think anyone would say 'he is most hard-working', but rather 'very hard-working'.


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## Porteño

Thank you emma42, I missed that one.


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## emma42

"Most" in dotcommacomma's examples is not used as a superlative, but as a synonym of "very".  

I agree it would be unusual to hear this usage in conversation, but it is perfectly acceptable in _written _English, and certainly not "incorrect" in spoken.

Edit:  You're welcome, Porteno.


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## Hotmale

Porteño said:


> Then I suggest you change your grammar book. It would be most interesting to know who the author was and who published it.



It's a book by a Polish grammarian. Because this book is in Polish, I roughly translated the Polish part:

_"He was *the most* hard-working" _(= he was the most hard-working of all)
_"He was *most *hard-working" _(=he was very hard-working)

_"She was the oldest of them all"_
_"She was the oldest person there"_

If we want only to say that she was the oldest, we have to options - with "the" or without "the":

_"She was *(the) *oldest"._


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## Porteño

Hotmale said:


> It's a book by a Polish grammarian. Because this book is in Polish, I roughly translated the Polish part:
> 
> _"He was *the most* hard-working" _(= he was the most hard-working of all)
> _"He was *most *hard-working" _(=he was very hard-working)
> 
> _"She was the oldest of them all"_
> _"She was the oldest person there"_
> 
> If we want only to say that she was the oldest, we have to options - with "the" or without "the":
> 
> _"She was *(the) *oldest"._


 
Then I regret to say that the Polish grammarian was wrong.


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## .   1

Porteño said:


> Then I regret to say that the Polish grammarian was wrong.


What source would you like to cite to support this statement?
You are arguing against a number of native and non-native English speakers and now you are arguing against a grammarian.
Many, many non native English speakers have difficulty with 'the' to the point that it is a rather accurate marker of a non-native speaker.
English is very flexible and it is amusing to see the repeated mistakes made by non-native English speakers.
Some languages appear to have quite rigid rules but English does not and now that I think of it I suppose that one very accurate gauge of a non-native English speaker is this adherence to the universality of any rule in English. Most obvious is the attempt to adapt a rule from another language into English. It seldom works and identifies the profferer as being non-native.

.,,


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## Porteño

emma42 said:


> "Most" in dotcommacomma's examples is not used as a superlative, but as a synonym of "very".
> 
> I agree it would be unusual to hear this usage in conversation, but it is perfectly acceptable in _written _English, and certainly not "incorrect" in spoken.
> 
> Edit: You're welcome, Porteno.


 
I would like to know where I could find confirmation of this statement. I certainly can not ever recall having seen this used or written without either 'a' or 'the'. A check in the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary has come up not one example.


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## Porteño

Hi ..., I trust you do not consider me to be a non-native speaker. 

Yes, I am arguing against all these eminent people quite simply because, without any substantial evidence to the contrary having been thus far put forward, I believe them to be wrong. I might remind you that the grammarian happens to be Polish (a non-native speaker) and thus his qualification to set rules in the English language is decidedly limited, unless of course he happens to have a degree as such from an English-speaking university. Furthermore, our friend Hotmale admits that his version is a translation from this grammarian's work, which renders it even more suspect.

As I have said previously, if someone can come up with the fact that said expression is used in another English-speaking country, such as Australia, then of course, I would accept it.


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## GregLee

Porteño said:


> I would like to know where I could find confirmation of this statement. I certainly can not ever recall having seen this used or written without either 'a' or 'the'. A check in the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary has come up not one example.


Well, you're just wrong as wrong can be about this.  What is it going to take?  Try a Google search on "is most" -- that should get you plenty of examples.  I just found: "I've picked the plan that I think *is most* likely to succeed," Bush said in an Oval Office meeting with senior military advisers. *...*


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## .   1

Porteño said:


> As I have said previously, if someone can come up with the fact that said expression is used in another English-speaking country, such as Australia, then of course, I would accept it.


A quick google reveals;
“I am most surprised” = 9,760
"I am most relieved" = 166
"I am most pleased" = 66,200
"I am most saddened" = 217
"I am most flattered" = 246
"I am most happy" = 56,700

“most surprised” = 205,000
"most relieved" = 22,100
“most pleased” = 413,000
"most saddened" = 843
"most flattered" = 11,800
"most happy" = 903,000
 
.,,
 
I am most likely to,kick myself for forgetting the response most likely to return most impressive statistics.
"I am most likely" = 61,200,000


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## Porteño

I would argue that these refer to emotions and do not describe a person, such as 'hard working', and are therefore in a different category. They certainly do not fall within the ambit of what was originally being discussed, as valid as they are. Wouldn't you agree?


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## Hotmale

Porteño said:


> I would argue that these refer to emotions and do not describe a person, such as 'hard working', and are therefore in a different category. They certainly do not fall within the ambit of what was originally being discussed, as valid as they are. Wouldn't you agree?


 
This is what I found in "A Practical Grammar of English" by A.J.Thomson and A.V. Martinet: 
"Most placed before an adjective or adverb can mean *very*. It is mainly used with adjectives/adverbs of two or more syllables:

_He was most apologetic
She behaved most generously_"

Moreover, in Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary I found:

4 FORMAL very:
_It was *a most *beautiful morning_.

Cheers, Hotmale


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## .   1

Porteño said:


> I would argue that these refer to emotions and do not describe a person, such as 'hard working', and are therefore in a different category. They certainly do not fall within the ambit of what was originally being discussed, as valid as they are. Wouldn't you agree?


The title of the thread is *when to use "the" in front of words ?* 
I suggested taht there are as many exceptions as there are rules and that it was very difficult to give hard and fast rules.
You have been narrowing down the parametres to suit your argument.
You supplied a selfcontradictory set of self written rules as your only support.
You have argued with every English speaker with your utter conviction that you are utterly right.
How can I continue to politely say that you are not right.
It is so difficult to be utterly right.
You posed an earlier question about my opinion of you as a native English speaker.  I must now respond that I can not believe that you are a native speaker and have not encountered this type of construction on a relatively regular basis.
You ask for support for my claim that it is common and when google is supplied as a resource you again change the point of the conversation.
I am not trying to confuse learners of English but blanket statements with upper case pronouncing that 'the' will *NOT *be used before certain words or *MUST* be used in front of other words is simply wrong and must be corrected in a forum such as this.
You have yet to supply one jot of support for your opinion.

.,,


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## panjandrum

There seems no prospect of this thread retaining the kind of equilibrium that is expected in this forum and was apparent in the thread up to post #x- you choose your own value of x.

There are now several interwoven strands of discussion on several different topics, which makes it impossible either to delete off-topic posts or to remove posts to a separate thread.

There are comments on posts commenting on several different issues that may be valid for some of the issues and invalid for others.

In the interests of avoiding further escalation, I am closing the thread now and putting it gently back on the shelf.


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