# Greek loanwords in Arabic



## Edguoglitigin

Could you share what you know about this? I know one loanword that it has become a root for new word: *sophia* > S-W-F > tasawwoof

Actually I'm studying on Mameluk-Kipchak texts and these turkic texts have somewhat Greek loanwords and what I wonder is whether those come from Arabic or Anatolian Greek (within the range of 13th century to 15th century)??

The words that I have come across are *mantar* "mushroom", *marul* "lettuce", *kirevet* "bench, armchair", *somun* "a kind of bread".


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## DenisBiH

Interesting, I didn't know *somun* was a Greek loanword. This dictionary seems to suggest it entered Turkish directly from Greek (*psōmón*). The same dictionary suggests the same for *kerevet* < *krábbatos*.


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## artion

Here are some more Gr. to Turkish loans.
http://spacezilotes.wordpress.com/2010/06/29/hellenic-words-in-turkish-language-ελληνικεσ-λεξεισ-στην-τουρκικη/

and more: http://users.otenet.gr/~aker/LekseisA-D.htm

But they include much academic terminology that has been borrowed from Gr. by almost every language in the world. 

There is a Greek book with 4.600 words common between Greek and Turkish:Title: Κατάλογος κοινών ελληνικών και τουρκικών λέξεων, εκφράσεων και παροιμιών
Author: Κωδικός προϊόντος
Place and date of publication: Athens 2008
ISBN: 978-960-02-2168-8

​


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## Mahaodeh

Edguoglitigin said:


> Could you share what you know about this? I know one loanword that it has become a root for new word: *sophia* > S-W-F > tasawwoof



Actually taSSawwof is more likely from Arabic Suuf (wool), I've heard two opinions, the less likely one is from Arabic Safaa (purity). Sophia does not really seem very likely; in all cases, this is not a good example because it's not agreed upon.

Actually I'm studying on Mameluk-Kipchak texts and these turkic texts have somewhat Greek loanwords and what I wonder is whether those come from Arabic or Anatolian Greek (within the range of 13th century to 15th century)??



Edguoglitigin said:


> The words that I have come across are *mantar* "mushroom", *marul* "lettuce", *kirevet* "bench, armchair", *somun* "a kind of bread".



I didn't recognize the first two, but I always thought the second two are Turkish too. I didn't even know that they were used in Egypt - the Egyptians I know don't use them or even knew what they mean before.


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## Edguoglitigin

artion said:


> Here are some more Gr. to Turkish loans.
> http://spacezilotes.wordpress.com/2...kish-language-ελληνικεσ-λεξεισ-στην-τουρκικη/
> 
> and more: http://users.otenet.gr/~aker/LekseisA-D.htm
> 
> But they include much academic terminology that has been borrowed from Gr. by almost every language in the world.
> 
> There is a Greek book with 4.600 words common between Greek and Turkish.
> https://www.perizitito.gr/product.php?productid=143138




Artion, I actually wonder the Greek loanwords in Arabic. Cause there are some claims that some Oghuz Turks who had used to live in Anatolia emigrated to Mameluk-Kipchak region (Egypt-Syria) about 14th-15th century and this made Kipchak Turkic evolve into Oghuz Turkic. Therefore some Greek loanwords (maybe we should call them Rumian) can give an idea about this situation.


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## Edguoglitigin

Mahaodeh said:


> Actually taSSawwof is more likely from Arabic Suuf (wool), I've heard two opinions, the less likely one is from Arabic Safaa (purity). Sophia does not really seem very likely; in all cases, this is not a good example because it's not agreed upon.



I think the *safaa* word can not be the root of *tasawwoof* because according to word pattern _tafa'ul_ its last sound must be a vowel. In addition to this fact, *suuf* "wool" sounds semantically irrelevant to me.


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## Mahaodeh

Safaa is a suggestion, as I said, not very likely. The more likely is Suuf, but it is not irrelevant. Actually it even seems more relevant to me. When they first showed up their major characteristic was wearing wool only - rough, non-refined wool - as a way to denounce worldly pleasures; hence, they were mutaSauufeen, i.e., wearing wool.


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## apmoy70

Edguoglitigin said:


> *...
> **marul* "lettuce"...


Marul probably derives from the Byzantine «(ἀ)μαρούλιον» (ama'rulion, and ma'rulion, when the initial alpha is omitted, _neuter noun_ ) which ultimately derives from the Latin, _amarulla lactuca_ (bitter lettuce); adj. amarus-->_bitter_ (cf. Italian amaretto). Modern Greek, «μαρούλι» (ma'ruli, _neuter noun_)-->_lettuce_.


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## olric

As far as I know, *nâmus* is a loanword from Greek *nomos*.


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## shawnee

Note also Turk. _kanun_ - instrument, and _Kanunname_ - laws > Gr. Κανόνας - scale , rule, precept and so on.


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## artion

Some words are loaned back and forth between Greek - Turkish - Arabic, like this:

Ar. and Pers.  _defte_r (book, note-book, registry), turkish _tefter_. From the ancient Gr. _diphthera_ (a thin leather membrane for writting on both sides< di+phtheiro (double use) ). The original word became obsolete in medieval and modern Gr. but was reloaned from turkish to modern Gr.  as _tefteri_ (note-book). The original is used in the  medical term _diphtheritis_.


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## tFighterPilot

English port, Greek Limani turned into the Arabic Minah (like with Alexander-Iskander, the Arabs interpreted the beginning L as "The"). This Greek word also entered Hebrew as Nemal.


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## Mahaodeh

OK, I just remembered a couple, Arabic funduq for hotel and fustuq for Pistachio‏ are originally Greek, or at least I think I recall reading something like that.


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## apmoy70

All right, fustuq from «πιστάκη» (pi'stake, _f._) the tree, and «πιστάκιον» (pi'stakion, _n._) the fruit, is understandable.
How on earth does one get funduq for the hotel (?), from the «Ποντικόν κάρυον» (Ponti'kon 'karuon, _n._), the "nut of Pontus" (hazelnut), is beyond me!  
Ponti'kon>_Funduq_, which gave the Turkish _fındık_ and the Modern Greek «φουντούκι» (fun'duci, _n._); but fındık and φουντούκι is this:
http://i52.tinypic.com/14e08km.jpg

How do you arrive to hotel from hazelnut?


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## origumi

apmoy70 said:


> All right, fustuq from «πιστάκη» (pi'stake, _f._) the tree, and «πιστάκιον» (pi'stakion, _n._) the fruit, is understandable.
> How on earth does one get funduq for the hotel (?), from the «Ποντικόν κάρυον» (Ponti'kon 'karuon, _n._), the "nut of Pontus" (hazelnut), is beyond me!
> Ponti'kon>_Funduq_, which gave the Turkish _fındık_ and the Modern Greek «φουντούκι» (fun'duci, _n._); but fındık and φουντούκι is this:
> http://i52.tinypic.com/14e08km.jpg
> 
> How do you arrive to hotel from hazelnut?


See here: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1188778


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## origumi

tFighterPilot said:


> This Greek word also entered Hebrew as Nemal namel.


Via Aramaic: limen -> limna -> nimla -> namel.


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## apmoy70

origumi said:


> See here: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1188778


Thanks Origumi, interesting


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## إسكندراني

Since it's not mentioned in here yet, I thought I'd draw your attention to what is often called the 'translation movement', which was a large scale transfer of knowledge into Arabic from Greek very early on during the Islamic era. I don't know a great deal about it, but I suspect it was when the first ground rules were laid down regarding how to arabise certain greek words - often choosing emphatic constants over non-emphatic ones. 

Much technical terminology has been taken directly from greek rather than latin or european languages even recently; though they're very similar words, often the pronunciation remains - in my opinion - closer to the original than in English or French ( ديمقراطية diimuQraaTiyya ) but sometimes the pronunciation is Arabised ( فلسفة falsafa).


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## er targyn

I've heard that Arabic has some Latin loans, for example, genius became "jinn" and, in Central Asia it means fool, idiot (< possessed by jinn).


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## Mahaodeh

I don't think jinn has anything to do with genius, jinn were called so because they are unseen and the root j-n-n has the meaning of invisibility or hiding.


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## er targyn

Are you 100% sure?


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## إسكندراني

er targyn said:


> Are you 100% sure?


If there is a 3-letter root, which there is, then it's definitely not a loanword.


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## er targyn

What do you mean?


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## DenisBiH

إسكندراني said:


> If there is a 3-letter root, which there is, then it's definitely not a loanword.



Does Arabic integrate some borrowings into its 3-letter root system?

Something along these lines:



> All Arabic word formation is based on an abstraction, namely, the                root, usually consisting of three consonants. These root sounds                join with various vowel patterns to form simple nouns and verbs                to which affixes can be attached for more complicated derivations.                *For example, the borrowed term bank is considered to have the consonantal                root b-n-k; film is formed from f-l-m *
> ...
> For example, for                the borrowed words bank and film, the plurals are, respectively, *               bunuk for banks and aflam for films*.


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## tFighterPilot

Arabic, Aramaic and Hebrew all have foreign words that turned into roots. The Greek word Taxis has been made into the root TKS in all three of them.


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## berndf

DenisBiH said:


> Does Arabic integrate some borrowings into its 3-letter root system?





tFighterPilot said:


> Arabic, Aramaic and Hebrew all have  foreign words that turned into roots. The Greek word Taxis has been made  into the root TKS in all three of them.


Or sometimes 4-letter roots. E.g. in Hebrew the word the verb _to telephone_ is _*t*i*lp*e*n*_ (infinitive _le*t*a*lp*e*n*_).


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## origumi

tFighterPilot said:


> The Greek word Taxis has been made into the root TKS in all three of them.


Even more than one Hebrew root: תכסיס (trick), טקס (ceremony), לטכס עצה (to consult), each forms a different 3 letter root based on the same Greek word, and in addition the modern טקטיקה (tactics).



berndf said:


> Or sometimes 4-letter roots. E.g. in Hebrew the word the verb _to telephone_ is _*t*i*lp*e*n*_ (infinitive _le*t*a*lp*e*n*_).


Most speakers say til*f*en, letal*f*en which follows the international (and Greek) pronounciation but not the clssic Hebrew rules, so this root is not fully absorbed into Hebrew.


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## Mahaodeh

er targyn said:


> Are you 100% sure?



About jinn? Yes I am. The root also has other words that have nothing to do with "the guardian spirit" or whatever the Greeks believed in. Example: janna al-layl = means the night has hidden [everything]; janna(t) means a garden with high trees (that hide whatever is behind it) - it also means heaven as we can't see it. janiin is a fetus or embryo (hidden inside his mother). I can go on but it's a very long root and some words in it have deviated a little (such as the meanings of jinn, madness, veils, shields, graveyards ...etc.)


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## berndf

Mahaodeh said:


> About jinn? Yes I am. The root also has other words that have nothing to do with "the guardian spirit" or whatever the Greeks believed in. Example: janna al-layl = means the night has hidden [everything]; janna(t) means a garden with high trees (that hide whatever is behind it) - it also means heaven as we can't see it. janiin is a fetus or embryo (hidden inside his mother). I can go on but it's a very long root and some words in it have deviated a little (such as the meanings of jinn, madness, veils, shields, graveyards ...etc.)


Etymolnline agrees with you. They have the following to say about _genie_:
1650s, "tutelary spirit," from Fr. _génie_, from L. _genius_ (see _genius_); used in French translation of "Arabian Nights" to render Arabic _jinni_, singular of _jinn_, which it accidentally resembled, and attested in English with this sense from 1748.​The important word is _accidentally_.


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## er targyn

What if not accidentally? Any deviation must be explained.


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## berndf

er targyn said:


> What if not accidentally? Any deviation must be explained.


The onus of proof rests with those who claim a connection exists. For both L. _genius_ and A. _jinn_ there are plausible etymologies within the respective language groups. Vague phonetic similarities between words from language groups without demonstrable genetic relationship does not in itself constitute a valid argument for a relationship, be it _cognate _or _loan_.


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## origumi

Mahaodeh said:


> janna(t) means a garden with high trees (that hide whatever is behind it)


Can't it be a totally different root that happens to have the same 3 letters? In Hebrew root gnn means _garden_ but nothing related to _hidden_. The same root also means _protect_, which sounds (in Hebrew at least) as an irrelated employment of the same 3 letters.


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## berndf

origumi said:


> Can't it be a totally different root that happens to have the same 3 letters? In Hebrew root gnn means _garden_ but nothing related to _hidden_. The same root also means _protect_, which sounds (in Hebrew at least) as an irrelated employment of the same 3 letters.


Here I found to _grow in abundance_ as the PS root meaning of G-N-N.


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## rayloom

origumi said:


> Can't it be a totally different root that happens to have the same 3 letters? In Hebrew root gnn means _garden_ but nothing related to _hidden_. The same root also means _protect_, which sounds (in Hebrew at least) as an irrelated employment of the same 3 letters.



Going through the root meanings in Arabic, it certainly seems that it carries more than 1 meaning.
Compare for example:
junna جنة meaning: protection, armour.
Also mijann مجنّ meaning "shield".
Maybe one could argue that one hides, gets covered by a shield or something of the sort.

As for the meaning related to "grow in abundance", this is an entry in Lisan Al-Arab:
وجُنَّ النبتُ جُنوناً أَي طالَ والْتَفَّ وخرج زهره
basically meaning that if one says "junna" (verb) referring to plants, then it means it has grown and flowered.
But then the author of the Lisan attempts in the entry to ultimately connect these meanings to the meaning "to hide/cover", but it's a retrospective analysis, as with mijann & junnah mentioned earlier.
The connection mentioned by the author of the Lisan does make sense to me in Arabic, but I think a more comparative approach is needed within the Semitic languages to see whether this connection holds.

But I guess thats deserves a new thread.


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## origumi

berndf said:


> Here I found to _grow in abundance_ as the PS root meaning of G-N-N.


It ignores several meanings of the root, some of them common to several Semitic languages. Therefore seems to me questionable. _Garden_ may be derived from this G-N-N but what about _hidden_? _protect_? _mad_? other meanings mentioned above? They do not seem related to _grow in abundance_.


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## berndf

origumi said:


> It ignores several meanings of the root, some of them common to several Semitic languages. Therefore seems to me questionable. _Garden_ may be derived from this G-N-N but what about _hidden_? _protect_? _mad_? other meanings mentioned above? They do not seem related to _grow in abundance_.


I agree. I can see how _to protect_ and _to hide_ can form a single semantic unit and meanings like _to flourish_ or _garden_ can be derived from that. But not really the other way round.


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## apmoy70

The name for the Greek currency «δραχμὴ» (drāx'mē, _f._), gave _dirham_ درهم 
Others claim that dirham derives from «δίδραχμον» ('dĭdrāxmŏn, _n._)--> _two-drachma_ (coin of 2 drachmas)


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## arielipi

origumi said:


> It ignores several meanings of the root, some of them common to several Semitic languages. Therefore seems to me questionable. _Garden_ may be derived from this G-N-N but what about _hidden_? _protect_? _mad_? other meanings mentioned above? They do not seem related to _grow in abundance_.




Objection! Protect? Thats obvious! Legonen means to protect.
Mignana is defensive actions, joining to what rayloom said.
Mad may be close to the root H-T-M which perfectly gives variations of to hide, to make something hidden


Plus in hebrew you can find 2,3,4,rarely 5 and 6 roots.


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## berndf

arielipi said:


> Objection! Protect? Thats obvious! Legonen means to protect.
> Mignana is defensive actions, joining to what rayloom said.


To what precisely do you object? Origumi explicitly said that G-N-N also means _to protect_.


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## arielipi

To the mad word. and about protect didnt notice. Which are the other words 'mentioned before'? I cant track them...


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## berndf

arielipi said:


> To the mad word. and about protect didnt notice. Which are the other words 'mentioned before'? I cant track them...


Here you go:


Mahaodeh said:


> About jinn? Yes I am. The root also has other  words that have nothing to do with "the guardian spirit" or whatever the  Greeks believed in. Example: janna al-layl = means the night has hidden  [everything]; janna(t) means a garden with high trees (that hide  whatever is behind it) - it also means heaven as we can't see it. janiin  is a fetus or embryo (hidden inside his mother). I can go on but it's a  very long root and some words in it have deviated a little (*such as the  meanings of jinn, madness, veils, shields, graveyards ...etc.*)


I still don't understand to what you object concerning G-N-N = _mad_.


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## arielipi

Ok, perhaps I misunderstood what origumi said.
Ill look at it tomrrow,have a test early morning. Later


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## WadiH

The _jinn_ were a creature of Arabian desert mythology long predating Islam.  They are associated with desolate and remote parts of the desert.  Experiencing the darkness of an Arabian desert _wadi _at night, one can easily understand how such creatures arose in the imagination of the ancient peoples here.  The explanation through the root _j-n-n_ ("to be hidden") is very plausible and makes a lot of sense.  I haven't seen anything in this thread to persuade me that it came all the way from Greece, though I am of course open to any additional evidence.  I would note that the fact that the root _j-n-n_ can also have the meaning of growth (hence _jannah _for garden) does not necessarily detract from the Arabic etymology.  It is common for a root to be used for two unrelated meanings, as a cursory look at any Arabic dictionary will give you. Even today in Saudi Arabia, one often hears a root that means one thing in the east and something completely different in the west.


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## arielipi

Supporting Wadi, semitic languages are known to have various, sometimes vast unrelated usages and meanings to the same root.
My theory is that due to the strict grammatical structure and rules, (we have a limited number of roots) it is a key piece to have multiple useage to the same root.
Perhaps all is needed is to have more binyanim, but thats OT for here,though interesting to hear arabic natives as arabic was spoken continuously and must have more roots than in hebrew, though they do have 10 binyanim while hebrew has 7. Did arabic add over time binyanim?


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## WadiH

berndf said:


> Here you go:
> 
> I still don't understand to what you object concerning G-N-N = _mad_.



The reason a mad person is known in Arabic as _majnuun _is because the Arabs believed such a person to have been possessed by _jinn_.  In the Quran, Muhammad is often accused by the pagans of Mecca of being _saaHir_ (a sorceror), _shaa'ir_ (a poet), _kaahin_ (a soothsayer who speaks to the _jinn_) or _majnuun _(passive participle from _j-n-n_).  He is also accused as _bihi massun min al-jinn_ ("touched by a jinni"), a variation of _majnuun_​.


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## apmoy70

Wadi Hanifa said:


> The _jinn_ were a creature of Arabian desert mythology long predating Islam.  They are associated with desolate and remote parts of the desert.  Experiencing the darkness of an Arabian desert _wadi _at night, one can easily understand how such creatures arose in the imagination of the ancient peoples here.  The explanation through the root _j-n-n_ ("to be hidden") is very plausible and makes a lot of sense.  I haven't seen anything in this thread to persuade me that it came all the way from Greece, though I am of course open to any additional evidence.  I would note that the fact that the root _j-n-n_ can also have the meaning of growth (hence _jannah _for garden) does not necessarily detract from the Arabic etymology.  It is common for a root to be used for two unrelated meanings, as a cursory look at any Arabic dictionary will give you. Even today in Saudi Arabia, one often hears a root that means one thing in the east and something completely different in the west.


+1
Haven't encountered any Homeric/Classical/Koine/Byzantine Greek word so far, which suggests that jinn is a Greek loanword in Arabic language; on the contrary, Modern Greek has the neuter noun «τζίνι» /'dzini/ which according to prof. Babiniotis is an Arabic loanword via Ottoman Turkish. It's a colloquialism for the very bright person (probably after Latin influence and folk etymology). The equivalent Greek word is the neuter noun «δαιμόνιον» (Classical Greek, dæ'mŏnīŏn, Modern Greek /ðe'monio/) which described an inferior devine being in ancient Greek mythology, often a naughty teaser. In Modern Greek, the very capable, intentive (and shrewd) person is described by the adj. «δαιμόνιος» /ðe'monios/


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## rayloom

arielipi said:


> Perhaps all is needed is to have more binyanim, but thats OT for here,though interesting to hear arabic natives as arabic was spoken continuously and must have more roots than in hebrew, though they do have 10 binyanim while hebrew has 7. Did arabic add over time binyanim?



This probably deserves its own thread.

Concerning triliteral root verbs, you have the common Semitic stems being (most likely descended from Proto-Semitic):
1- G-stem
2- D-stem
3- Š-stem
4- Gt-stem (or tG-stem, a variation occuring in colloquial Arabic and Aramaic)
5- tD-stem (or Dt-stem, a variation occuring in Akkadian and Aramaic)
6- N-stem
7- Št-stem
(the L-stem and tL-stem are debatable apparently, however, they do occur in Arabic, Biblical Hebrew (p. 108), Ethiosemitic and Ugaritic, Ugaritic apparently having only the L-stem).

Hebrew has 7 binyanim, from 5 stems:
1- paʕal, which meets Arabic form I faʕala: G-stem
2- piʕel, which meets Arabic form II faʕʕala: D-stem
3- hifʕil, which meets Arabic form IV ʔafʕala: Š-stem (or C-stem)
4- hitpaʕel, which meets Arabic form V tafaʕʕala (Colloquial Arabic 'itfaʕʕal): tD-stem (which apparently merged with the Gt-stem in Hebrew)
5- nifʕal, which meets Arabic form VII infaʕala: N-stem
6- puʕal, which meets the passive voice of Arabic form II fuʕʕila: passive of D-stem
7- hufʕal, which meets the passive voice of Arabic form IV ʔufʕila: passive of Š-stem (or C-stem)

(And if we include Biblical Hebrew):
- hištafʕal (attested in Hebrew hištaḥwā), which meets Arabic form X 'istafʕala: Št-stem
- L-stem and its passive. And its reflexive tL-stem. (see p. 108 of "Handbook of Biblical Hebrew").

So, the 5 stems in Hebrew being: G-stem, D-stem, Š-stem, tD-stem (or Gt-stem), N-stem. Biblical Hebrew having 3 extra stems: Št-stem, L-stem, tL-stem.

Akkadian has all the aforementioned 7 stems, and in addition to that 5 extra stems (total 12).
Arabic has all those 7 stems, and in addition to that the L-stem & tL-stem, and 6 extra stems (total 15)
Aramaic has 6 stems, (lost the N-stem)
Ugaritic has all those 7 stems + L-stem. (total 8).

Regarding those extra stems in Akkadian and Arabic, they might be innovative in the end, they do exhibit however a feature which suggests derivations from other stems. Which in Akkadian, it's the -tan- infix into different stems. And in Arabic, it can be variations of the D-stem, sometimes with elongation of the vowel before, or an infixation of -n- or -w-, which also has gives a reflexive/mediopassive meaning, usually used to form stative verbs.


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## Edguoglitigin

I feel I interrupt the nice discussion about _genius ~ jinn_ but I want to share a loanword I have recently discovered it: 

Arabic *ﻣﺼﻄﻜﻰ *'resin of mastic tree' < Old Greek *μαστιχη *'mastic, mastiche'.


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## djara

_ barqouq برقوق_ = "prune" or, in certain areas "apricot". The Arabic word was most probably borrowed from Greek _praikokion_ itself borrowed from Latin _praecoquum_ which means precocious/early. The Arabic word was then borrowed by most European languages; Eng. Apricot, Fr. Abricot, etc. See Amine Maalouf's excellent "My Web Words".


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## apmoy70

djara said:


> _ barqouq برقوق_ = "prune" or, in certain areas "apricot". The Arabic word was most probably borrowed from Greek _praikokion_ itself borrowed from Latin _praecoquum_ which means precocious/early. The Arabic word was then borrowed by most European languages; Eng. Apricot, Fr. Abricot, etc. See Amine Maalouf's excellent "My Web Words".


The Byzantine Greek word is «βερύκοκον/βερίκοκκον» (ve'rykokon or ve'rikokkon, both spellings are common) which is a Latin loanword--> praecox (alt. praecoquum) persicum. lit. _premature peach_. 
«Πραικόκιον» (prae'kokion) is definitely not a Greek word (in fact I've never heard it).
praecox (praecoquum) > «βερύκοκον/βερίκοκκον» > barqouq_ برقوق_


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## ancalimon

Turkish Etymology dictionary by Tuncer Gülensoy says that the Turkish "cin gibi" (like a cin) did not enter Turkish from Arabic and that it's not related to a creature that can not be seen.

It says it is related to "cin" meaning "true, real".  Someone who speaks the truth.

There's also Turuz dictionary that talks about the same word meaning similar things.

http://www.turuz.com/sozluk.aspx?dict=arin&q=cin


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## djara

apmoy70 said:


> The Byzantine Greek word is «βερύκοκον/βερίκοκκον» (ve'rykokon or ve'rikokkon, both spellings are common) which is a Latin loanword--> praecox (alt. praecoquum) persicum. lit. _premature peach_.
> «Πραικόκιον» (prae'kokion) is definitely not a Greek word (in fact I've never heard it).
> praecox (praecoquum) > «βερύκοκον/βερίκοκκον» > barqouq_ برقوق_


Thanks Apmoy for this more accurate information.


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## arielipi

What are stems rayloom? And where did you get that great knowledge? Thanks for the info btw!


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## berndf

arielipi said:


> What are stems rayloom?


In Hebrew they are called binyanim.


arielipi said:


> And where did you get that great knowledge?


His post contains the relevant links. Just click on them.


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## arsham

I have serious doubt about "souf" being of Greek origin. Here is short list of well known Greek loanwords in Arabic:
falsafa; safsaTa; almâs; joghrâfiyâ; qânûn; bayTâr; yâqût; iksîr;


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## origumi

rayloom said:


> (And if we include Biblical Hebrew):
> - hištafʕal (attested in Hebrew hištaḥwā), which meets Arabic form X 'istafʕala: Št-stem
> - L-stem and its passive. And its reflexive tL-stem. (see p. 108 of "Handbook of Biblical Hebrew").
> 
> So, the 5 stems in Hebrew being: G-stem, D-stem, Š-stem, tD-stem (or Gt-stem), N-stem. Biblical Hebrew having 3 extra stems: Št-stem, L-stem, tL-stem.


Two quick comments:

1. If we add hishtaf`el (the hištaḥwā pattern) to the 7 Hebrew "stems", then we need to add also shif`el and shuf`al (` stands for ayin), thus have 10 stems (7 + 3). These three "heavy" binyanim go together. (or is it exactly what you said?)

2. These sh-f-`-l binyanim are not necessarly a Hebrew invention - they exist also in Aramaic, e.g. אִשְׁתַּכְלַלוּ hishtaklalu (= finished, completed) of root k-l-l, therefore may be a Proto Aramaic-Canaanite feature, or maybe an Aramaic influence on Hebrew (or vice versa, so some other kind of borrowing between the languages).

But as you said - this is rather off topic and deserves a separate thread.


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## Edguoglitigin

ancalimon said:


> Turkish Etymology dictionary by Tuncer Gülensoy says that the Turkish "cin gibi" (like a cin) did not enter Turkish from Arabic and that it's not related to a creature that can not be seen.
> 
> It says it is related to "cin" meaning "true, real".  Someone who speaks the truth.
> 
> There's also Turuz dictionary that talks about the same word meaning similar things.
> 
> http://www.turuz.com/sozluk.aspx?dict=arin&q=cin




Turkish *cin gibi* (dzhin ...) phrase is used for those who are so smart. Therefore it can not be related to Old Turkich *çın* (chyn) 'true, genuine; truth' word (besides, according to Clauson, that's a Chinesse loanword. It was originally *chén*.). Attribution to intelligence by the name of creature *jinn* must be pertinent to semantically contamination Arabic jinn with Latin/Greek *genius*, I think.


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## ancalimon

Edguoglitigin said:


> Turkish *cin gibi* (dzhin ...) phrase is used for those who are so smart. Therefore it can not be related to Old Turkich *çın* (chyn) 'true, genuine; truth' word (besides, according to Clauson, that's a Chinesse loanword. It was originally *chén*.). Attribution to intelligence by the name of creature *jinn* must be pertinent to semantically contamination Arabic jinn with Latin/Greek *genius*, I think.



Actually, it's not specifically used for people that are smart.  It is also used for people "that see the truth" , "that understand whether someone is lying or not", "whether the gold he is holding in his hands is fake or not".

So a person can be fool, unwise...  But he can be "cin gibi" at the same time.


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## apmoy70

arsham said:


> I have serious doubt about "souf" being of Greek origin. Here is short list of well known Greek loanwords in Arabic:
> falsafa; safsaTa; almâs; joghrâfiyâ; qânûn; bayTâr; yâqût; iksîr;



Could you please give the possible Greek origins of these words? (besides of course falsafa, joghrâfiyâ and qânûn which are obvious)
Thanks


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## Edguoglitigin

ancalimon said:


> Actually, it's not specifically used for people that are smart.  It is also used for people "that see the truth" , "that understand whether someone is lying or not", "whether the gold he is holding in his hands is fake or not".
> 
> So a person can be fool, unwise...  But he can be "cin gibi" at the same time.



A person who is fool but capable of seeing the truth does not sound reasonable. A person who sees the truth must be good at thinking that it is the same with what I mentioned above.

On the other hand, cin gibi phrase has not been attested in Old Turkic nor in Old Anatolian (Old Ottoman). So it must be a newer form.


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## ancalimon

Edguoglitigin said:


> A person who is fool but capable of seeing the truth does not sound reasonable. A person who sees the truth must be good at thinking that it is the same with what I mentioned above.
> 
> On the other hand, cin gibi phrase has not been attested in Old Turkic nor in Old Anatolian (Old Ottoman). So it must be a newer form.



That's perfectly reasonable. A person can be perceptive or wise but not really intelligent at all. Intelligence does not always come together with wisdom and vice versa.

A person can be trained to detect whether gold is fake or not. He may be a peoples person and easily read the body language to understand whether someone is lying or not.

I've also heard people say "çını" instead of "cin gibi"


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## rayloom

origumi said:


> Two quick comments:
> 
> 1. If we add hishtaf`el (the hištaḥwā pattern) to the 7 Hebrew "stems", then we need to add also shif`el and shuf`al (` stands for ayin), thus have 10 stems (7 + 3). These three "heavy" binyanim go together. (or is it exactly what you said?)
> 
> 2. These sh-f-`-l binyanim are not necessarly a Hebrew invention - they exist also in Aramaic, e.g. אִשְׁתַּכְלַלוּ hishtaklalu (= finished, completed) of root k-l-l, therefore may be a Proto Aramaic-Canaanite feature, or maybe an Aramaic influence on Hebrew (or vice versa, so some other kind of borrowing between the languages).
> 
> But as you said - this is rather off topic and deserves a separate thread.



ِAramaic אִשְׁתַּכְלַלוּ hishtaklalu (from the root k-l-l) actually follows the Št-stem. Notice the infixed -t-. The Št-stem itself is most probably Proto-Semitic in origin. 
As for shif'el (and its passive shuf'al), which also appear rarely in Arabic (سلقى meaning ألقى or سنبس meaning نبس...etc), I believe are traces of the Š-stem of Proto-Semitic (see here*), where the Š is retained instead of turning it into a H (in Hebrew) or ʔ (in Arabic). Compare reconstructed Šapʕal- with Hebrew Hafʕal and Arabic ʔafʕala (to form causatives, hence the C-stem instead, or in Hebrew H-stem).
In Arabic also by the way, form IV (Š-stem or C-stem) occurs with an H in some words instead of an alif. You have for example:
هراق هراد for أراق أراد.

*The relevant quote just in case the link doesn't link to the right page:
"The preservation of reflexive Št-forms and traces of Š-causatives in languages which otherwise have an h / '-causative indicate that these languages have lost the Š-causative"
As in the case of Arabic and Biblical Hebrew, which have replaced it with an alif or H in this case. The author then goes on to explain the process of this change.


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## arsham

Here is a longer list of Greek loanwords in Arabic:
اسطوره، ارغنون، اسقف، ابلیس، اقلیم، اقیانوس، اسطقس، اسطرلاب، افیون، اکسیر، فانوس، قلم، قرطاس، بربط، قفس، اطلس، بلغم، قانون، اسفنج، زمرد، یاقوت، فلسفه، سفسطه، بیطار، اقاقیا، الماس


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## sotos

Edguoglitigin said:


> A person who is fool but capable of seeing the truth does not sound reasonable. .


Well, it does, in the eastern way of thinking and this is very relevant to the multiple  meanings of "gen(ious)". In orthodox christian and islamic tradition, it is accepted that fools, idiots, mad and other mentally disturbed can be possessed by a spirit and have some kind of direct and apocalyptic access to the Truth or God. The Orthodox church venerates a category of Saints called "salloi" (crazy).


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## tFighterPilot

arsham said:


> Here is a longer list of Greek loanwords in Arabic:
> اسطوره، ارغنون، اسقف، ابلیس، اقلیم، اقیانوس، اسطقس، اسطرلاب، افیون، اکسیر، فانوس، قلم، قرطاس، بربط، قفس، اطلس، بلغم، قانون، اسفنج، زمرد، یاقوت، فلسفه، سفسطه، بیطار، اقاقیا، الماس


I find it interesting that back then the consonants /k/ and /t/ were transliterated to Arabic as ق and ط (as opposed to ك and ت like nowadays) The name Caesar has even been transliterated with ص.


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## berndf

tFighterPilot said:


> I find it interesting that back then the consonants /k/ and /t/ were transliterated to Arabic as ق and ط (as opposed to ك and ت like nowadays).


This could be from Aramaic to avoid the Kaph/Khapf and Taw/Thaw ambiguity. Many old loans arrived in Arabic via Aramaic. Hebrew which also has this ambiguity still uses Qopf and Teth in transliterations.


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## WadiH

berndf said:


> This could be from Aramaic to avoid the Kaph/Khapf and Taw/Thaw ambiguity. Many old loans arrived in Arabic via Aramaic. Hebrew which also has this ambiguity still uses Qopf and Teth in transliterations.



I don't think it has anything to do with Aramaic.  Look at the Arabic names of Spanish cities like QurTubah and gharnaaTah or modern words like diimuQraTiyyah, biiruuQraTiyyah or waashinTon.


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## berndf

Wadi Hanifa said:


> I don't think it has anything to do with Aramaic.  Look at the Arabic names of Spanish cities like QurTubah and gharnaaTah or modern words like diimuQraTiyyah, biiruuQraTiyyah or waashinTon.


What I meant is that this might have been the origin of the tradition of transcribing European names this way.


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## tFighterPilot

Wadi Hanifa said:


> I don't think it has anything to do with Aramaic.  Look at the Arabic names of Spanish cities like QurTubah and gharnaaTah or modern words like diimuQraTiyyah, biiruuQraTiyyah or waashinTon.


Well, the name Granada originated from Arabic. In the case of Cordoba, it's quite ironic because its name derived from the Phoenician word קר*ת* יובה (which means the ق is correct but not the ط) but the conquering moors probably didn't know about it. In any case, the default nowadays is ك and ت.


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## origumi

tFighterPilot said:


> In the case of Cordoba, it's quite ironic because its name derived from the Phoenician word קר*ת* יובה (which means the ق is correct but not the ط)


I guess you mean קרת טובה _kart toba _= "good city". In that case there are ق ת followed by ط ט, so after they assimilate - either of the two sounds may win. In Hebrew (thus maybe also in Phoenician) the ط ט usually remains (e.g. להתטהר* > להטהר), but who knows in what time and language this happened to the name Córdoba.

Anyway, _kart toba_ smells doubtful. In the sources I saw it's mentioned as a guess rather than established fact.


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## tFighterPilot

origumi said:


> I guess you mean קרת טובה _kart toba _= "good city". In that case there are ق ת followed by ط ט, so after they assimilate - either of the two letter may win. In Hebrew (thus maybe also in Phoenician) the ط ט usually remains, but who knows in what time and language this happened to the name Córdoba.
> 
> Anyway, _kart toba_ smell doubtful. In the sources I saw it's mentioned as a guess rather than established fact.


Definitely יובה, named after Juba I. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%B3rdoba,_Andalusia#History


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## arielipi

Kart may perhaps be related to the word krach = city in Aramaic. or Crete , in Hebrew the letters are almost the same - קרתים קרת.
Remember this is a foreign name, just like Turkey can be written in many ways.


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## origumi

tFighterPilot said:


> Definitely יובה, named after Juba I. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Córdoba,_Andalusia#History


Oh well, so there are few theories, here is an example of קרת טובה: http://books.google.co.il/books?id=UB4uSVt3ulUC&pg=PA102&lpg=PA102&dq=cordoba+etymology&source=bl&ots=FCI-wN7nuO&sig=U3yTf-Gd7A1TNN_lQ1bbCGLj_5w&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LxJOT62dCKqG0AXct-TMAw&ved=0CEQQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=cordoba etymology&f=false .


arielipi said:


> kart may perhaps be related to the word krach = city in aramaic. or Crete , in hebrew the letters are almost the same - קרתים קרת
> remember this is a foreign name, just like turkey can be written in many ways.


_Kart_ is the Phoenician pronounciation of Hebrew _keret_ (town). Compare also to Hebrew _kirya _with similar meaning.


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## sotos

tFighterPilot said:


> Well, the name Granada originated from Arabic.



Who said? It sounds very latin, from granus (grain) > grenade (the fruit called granada in spanish)


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## Masjeen

sotos said:


> Who said? It sounds very latin, from granus (grain) > grenade (the fruit called granada in spanish)



well, I believe the imaginative thinking is useless in the scientific studies.


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## rayloom

sotos said:


> Who said? It sounds very latin, from granus (grain) > grenade (the fruit called granada in spanish)



Although searching online seems to suggest that this might be a folk etymology, a Classical Arabic dictionary العباب الزاخر (circa. 12th century AD) actually agrees with you:
غرناطةُ: بلدة كبيرة من أعمال الأندلس، معنى غرناطة: الرمانة بلغةَ عجم الأندلس
"Granada: A large town in Andalusia. The meaning of Granada: Pomegranate in the language of the 'ajam of Andalusia"
'ajam means non-Arabic speakers.


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## hungryplanets00

http://www.answering-islam.org/Books/Jeffery/Vocabulary/index.htm

I hope that the link above will be of some use to you all. It's the digital version of "The Foreign Vocabulary of the Quran" by Arthur Jeffery. 

Here is an interesting commentary as well: http://mansys.blogspot.com/2006/04/foreign-vocabulary-of-quran.html. 

Enjoy!


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## WadiH

berndf said:


> What I meant is that this might have been the origin of the tradition of transcribing European names this way.



I think it's a rather unnecessary explanation.  They probably did it because it fit the language better that way.  Look at these automobile-related colloquial borrowings from Saudi Arabia and the Gulf:

طبلون (dashboard)
اصطبّات (break lights, from "stop")
طرنبة (pump)
جلنط (handbreaks ... I don't know the origin but it's probably a borrowing)
جنوط (rims)

These were borrowed by illiterate and barely-literate people in the desert.  They weren't following the Classical Arabic tradition, let alone the Aramaic one.  They just used what sounded right for them.  By the way, you'll find many other borrowings were 't' is rendered ت, but you'll never find any words were 'k' becomes ق because [q] did not exist in most of these dialects.


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## WadiH

rayloom said:


> Although searching online seems to suggest that this might be a folk etymology, a Classical Arabic dictionary العباب الزاخر (circa. 12th century AD) actually agrees with you:
> غرناطةُ: بلدة كبيرة من أعمال الأندلس، معنى غرناطة: الرمانة بلغةَ عجم الأندلس
> "Granada: A large town in Andalusia. The meaning of Granada: Pomegranate in the language of the 'ajam of Andalusia"
> 'ajam means non-Arabic speakers.



There's no doubt that 'Granada' is NOT of Arabic origin.


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## WadiH

Edguoglitigin said:


> Turkish *cin gibi* (dzhin ...) phrase is used for those who are so smart. Therefore it can not be related to Old Turkich *çın* (chyn) 'true, genuine; truth' word (besides, according to Clauson, that's a Chinesse loanword. It was originally *chén*.). Attribution to intelligence by the name of creature *jinn* must be pertinent to semantically contamination Arabic jinn with Latin/Greek *genius*, I think.



There's no need to suppose a Latin influence here because _jinn_ is already commonly-used in Arabic with these meanings.


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## WadiH

apmoy70 said:


> Could you please give the possible Greek origins of these words? (besides of course falsafa, joghrâfiyâ and qânûn which are obvious)
> Thanks



I do know safsaTa = sophistry.


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## rayloom

arsham said:


> I have serious doubt about "souf" being of Greek origin. Here is short list of well known Greek loanwords in Arabic:
> falsafa; safsaTa; almâs; joghrâfiyâ; qânûn; bayTâr; yâqût; iksîr;
> 
> 
> 
> apmoy70 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Could you please give the possible Greek origins of these words? (besides of course falsafa, joghrâfiyâ and qânûn which are obvious)
> Thanks
Click to expand...




arsham said:


> Here is a longer list of Greek loanwords in Arabic:
> اسطوره، ارغنون، اسقف، ابلیس، اقلیم، اقیانوس، اسطقس، اسطرلاب، افیون، اکسیر، فانوس، قلم، قرطاس، بربط، قفس، اطلس، بلغم، قانون، اسفنج، زمرد، یاقوت، فلسفه، سفسطه، بیطار، اقاقیا، الماس


iksir = elixir (from Gk xerion)
BayTar= veterinarian (actually Latin)
ٌYaqut= ruby (Arabic dictionaries say it's ultimately Gk through Persian)
Almas = Diamond (from Gk Adamas, courtesy Arabic wikipedia)
زمرد = emerald (from Gk Smaragdus)
اسطورة = legend (from Gk historia)
اسقف = bishop (from Gk Episcopos, via Syriac)
ابليس = from Diablos
اسطرلاب = astrolabe
أفيون = opium
فانوس "fanus" = lamp...Can only find that it's Gk in origin, but not the original word
قلم = pen (Gk calamos)
قرطاس = from Gk khartes? (not sure of the word) meaning "paper"
أطلس = atlas
بلغم = phlegm
اسفنج = sponge

Can't find the rest. But they aren't Arabic.




hungryplanets00 said:


> http://www.answering-islam.org/Books/Jeffery/Vocabulary/index.htm
> 
> I hope that the link above will be of some use to you all. It's the digital version of "The Foreign Vocabulary of the Quran" by Arthur Jeffery.
> 
> Here is an interesting commentary as well: http://mansys.blogspot.com/2006/04/foreign-vocabulary-of-quran.html.
> 
> Enjoy!


I disagree with some of the words listed, I would recommend reading the commentary as well 
By the way, the Quran itself never claims that it's free of any foreign words. Indeed quite early on, Arabs have noticed words which weren't in their language, which early exegetes, lexicographers and grammarians have commented on (earlier even than Al-Suyuti).
"'arabiyyun mubiin" refers to the Quran being in clear Arabic, that's all. That some might have misunderstood it to mean it's in pure Arabic, in the sense that it doesn't even contain any foreign vocabulary, that's another thing. If the general consensus was otherwise, as might some suggest, then those early views would have been viewed as heretics doubting the words of the Quran, which was NOT the case 



Wadi Hanifa said:


> There's no doubt that 'Granada' is NOT of Arabic origin.


Yes I agree. The etymology seems to be disputed though. I find the etymology provided by the classical Arabic dictionary to consolidate what was/is viewed as folk etymology. So it might not be a folk etymology after all.


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## apmoy70

rayloom said:


> iksir = elixir (from Gk xerion) *Yes*
> BayTar= veterinarian (actually Latin) _*Yes it's from Latin*_
> ٌYaqut= ruby (Arabic dictionaries say it's ultimately Gk through Persian) _*actually it's from «υάκινθος» (hyacinth)*_
> Almas = Diamond (from Gk Adamas, courtesy Arabic wikipedia)
> زمرد = emerald (from Gk Smaragdus) _*actually it's either a Semitic (akkadian?) borrowing in Greek --> barraqtu (root b-r-q) or from Sanskrit --> marakatam > σμάραγδος ('smaragdos) & μάραγδος ('maragdos)*_
> اسطورة = legend (from Gk historia)
> اسقف = bishop (from Gk Episcopos, via Syriac) *Yes*
> ابليس = from Diablos *it's Διάβολος (Di'abolos)*
> اسطرلاب = astrolabe
> أفيون = opium
> فانوس "fanus" = lamp...Can only find that it's Gk in origin, but not the original word *it's from φανός (pha'nos) -->          light, bright*
> قلم = pen (Gk calamos)
> قرطاس = from Gk khartes? (not sure of the word) meaning "paper" *that'd be χάρτης --> papyrus, paper, map, charter*
> أطلس = atlas
> بلغم = phlegm
> اسفنج = sponge


Thank you, very interesting


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## إسكندراني

Some words are used only in Egyptian:
ليمان (li:man) now means 'prison' for some reason.
كنبة (kanaba) means 'sofa'
ترابيزة (tarabe:za) means 'table'


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## Schem

Kanaba كنبة is used all over the Arab world afaik.


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## Treaty

What about these words:
لغة = logos
ناموس = nomos (I'm not sure if it is used in Arabic as well)


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## Abu Rashid

إسكندراني said:


> Some words are used only in Egyptian:
> كنبة (kanaba) means 'sofa'
> ترابيزة (tarabe:za) means 'table'



These two are definitely not exclusively Egyptian.

Kanaba is used all over the Arabic world, and tarabeyza is at least used in Hejazi Madani Arabic.


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## Abu Rashid

Treaty said:


> What about these words:
> لغة = logos



What is the basis for this claim? They both contain "L" and "G"?


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## eresios

er targyn said:


> I've heard that Arabic has some Latin loans, for example, genius became "jinn" and, in Central Asia it means fool, idiot (< possessed by jinn).



Dear fellow humans,

please check what you get as given.

The west world word genious comes from the greek ΓΕΝΟΣ/ΓΕΝΙΑ (genia) > genus in latin, meaning the family of the mother who gave birth (ΓΕΝΝΑ).

Families with famous, were usually rich, "good" families, used to rule the people and they "should" be clever, kind, of good manner, having the education of being and act like that etc.

This explain also the word "gene" and many others.

At east world, on the contrary, they used it to characterize - again - someone being born with or without a charisma, e.g. an idiot.

Incidentally, "idiot" is greek as well meaning someone of particular character (ΙΔΙΩΤΗΣ, idiot-is), but not necessarily a fool etc.

At your disposal

ΕΡΕΣΙΟΣ
eresios


----------



## berndf

Eresios, the word _genius _has a rather straight forward Latin etymology. I see no reason to assume a Greek origin.


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## eresios

Lieber Bernt!

Weil ich Eikaufen gehe, darf ich Ihnen danach fragen was es Diogenes beteutet?


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## berndf

eresios said:


> Lieber Bernt!
> 
> Weil ich Eikaufen gehe, darf ich Ihnen danach fragen was es Diogenes beteutet?


Ich verstehe die Frage nicht.


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## إسكندراني

Reading through this, it is apparent the ganna/jinn fiasco has not been well resolved. There is a thread on the Arabic forum where it was discussed a while back. The idea of a garden is that it is hidden or protected from the elements. That is the logic behind it.


Schem said:


> Kanaba كنبة is used all over the Arab world afaik.


I'm going to make a new catchphrase: _not in morocco._ I'm afraid i'll have to check with the other two dozen dialects I am not familiar with to make sure. But it's interesting if Saudi and Levant regions have the word, I never hear you use it. 



tFighterPilot said:


> Well, the name Granada originated from Arabic. In the case of Cordoba, it's quite ironic because its name derived from the Phoenician word קרת יובה (which means the ق is correct but not the ط) but the conquering moors probably didn't know about it. In any case, the default nowadays is ك and ت.


This is so not true. قرطبة is a bit too famous for that to happen.


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## akhooha

> Originally Posted by *tFighterPilot*:Well, the name Granada originated from Arabic.  In the case of Cordoba, it's quite ironic because its name derived from  the Phoenician word קרת יובה (which means the ق is correct but not the  ط) but the conquering moors probably didn't know about it. In any case,  the default nowadays is ك and ت.





> Originally posted by* إسكندراني*: This is so not true. قرطبة is a bit too famous for that to happen.


إسكندراني is absolutely correct. No way is قرطبة ever spelled with ك and ت.
Also (just curious) why are you using the Hebrew alphabet to represent the Phoenician version of the name?


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## berndf

Convenience. The alphabet is identical to the Phoenician alphabet except for letter shape.


----------

