# pronunciation - ll & y



## tim fullbright

I know, there has been a couple of these threads already. (Actually I started at least one of them) But after listening spanish speakers from
different parts of the world, I managed to confuse myself again.

I heard -ll- and -y- being pronounced at least in 3 different ways.
I will call them *(joe) (yes) *and *(show) *pronunciations.

Can you take a few seconds and answer the following?

1) Where are you from?

How do you pronounce?
2) me *ll*amo

*a-* *(joe) *
*b- (yes) *
*c- (show)*

3) pandi*ll*a

*a-* *(joe) *
*b- (yes) *
*c- (show)*

4) *y*o

*a-* *(joe) *
*b- (yes) *
*c- (show)*

5) o*y*e

*a-* *(joe) *
*b- (yes) *
*c- (show)*

6) vo*y*

*a-* *(joe) *
*b- (yes) *
*c- (show)*

That is it, thanks!


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## Brazilian dude

Ll to me is very different from y (again, I'm not a native speaker of Spanish, but rather a very proficient speaker, I would say).  To me ll's sound more or less like the y in million and the y sounds like English y.  This distinction is the traditional one and is still kept in some areas, particularly Bolivia and Paraguay and parts of Spain.

Brazilian dude


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## Maeron

Mexico: You could describe it as "zh" like the "s" of "measure" and "pleasure", and while that would be close, it wouldn't be totally accurate. More precisely, it's a sound somewhere in between "joe" and "yes" but just a little more towards "joe". To me, as an English-speaker it sometimes sounds more "joe"-like, and sometimes less, but hardly ever all the way to "yes". A challenge for the English-speaker (like me) is to pronounce "silla" and "tortilla" without being laughed at for saying "sía" and "tortía".

This applies to your examples 1 to 5. In 6, the "y" is a vowel, not a consonant, so it is pronounced just like an "i".


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## Jellby

I don't make a distinction between "y" and "ll", just like many other Spanish spakers. Although some other speakers pronounce them differently, you'll be safe if you don't. Now, the exact pronunciation of these consonants vary greatly between regions and with the word context, almost anything between "show" and "you" would be all right. My advice is not to be troubled with it.

As for your questions, I'd say I pronounce most instances something between "joe" and "yes", except number 6, which is a vowel, as Maeron says. I'm from South-Western Spain.


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## Leprechaunette

Hi there!
In Catalonia (north-east of Spain) you can pronounce "ll" in a different way even (by pressing the blade of your tongue against your front palate), which is a sound particular to the Catalan language and some accents in Spain. 

Other than that, I think it is safe to say that most people in Spain don't make a difference between "ll" and "y", and pronounce them all as in "yes", or, as Jellby says, it can range between a "yes" and "joe" pronunciation in the south.

The "sh" pronunciation is more particular to South-American countries like Argentina or Uruguay.


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## Pedro P. Calvo Morcillo

tim fullbright said:
			
		

> I know, there has been a couple of these threads already. (Actually I started at least one of them) But after listening spanish speakers from
> different parts of the world, I managed to confuse myself again.
> 
> I heard -ll- and -y- being pronounced at least in 3 different ways.
> I will call them *(joe) (yes) *and *(show) *pronunciations.
> 
> Can you take a few seconds and answer the following?


 
1) Where are you from?
Spain (Madrid).

How do you pronounce?
2) me *ll*amo

*a-* *(joe) *

3) pandi*ll*a

*a-* *(joe) *

4) *y*o

*a-* *(joe) *
*b- (yes) (según me da).*

5) o*y*e

*a-* *(joe) *
*b- (yes) (según me da).*

6) vo*y*

*b- (yes) *


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## Rayines

¡Qué buena idea la de grabar, Pedro! Yo acabo de hacerlo, pero como no puedo verlo antes de mandarlo, no sé si quedó mi archivo. Bueno, me costó un poco de trabajo, pero veo que quedó.

Para Sofía29: primero tenés que zipear los archivos (o sea comprimirlos, con un programa que se llama WinRar, que te los aliviana, y lo guardás -cuando te da a elegir- como .zip). Si eso te resulta, luego los podés insertar. ¡Suerte!


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## tafanari

¡Gracias, Pedro y Rayines, por los archivos!


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## Sofia29

Yo soy de la Provincia de Buenos Aires.

Voy a tratar de subir algo también.

Bah, por alguna razón no anda. No sé qué hice mal. 

De las tres opciones, diría que pronuncio más cerca de "joe", aunque en realidad me parece que el sonido más cercano es la jota pronunciada en francés.


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## alc112

My answers:

1) Where are you from?
 Argentina (Entre Ríos)
How do you pronounce?
2) me *ll*amo
*c- (show)*

3) pandi*ll*a
*c- (show)*

4) *y*o
*c- (show)*

5) o*y*e
*b- (yes) *

 6) vo*y*
*b- (yes) *

I would record my voice too. But this is not a good time. (If I remember) I'll add themm tomorrow.


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## cuchuflete

There is a pronunciation that may not correspond to the options you have listed.  As you have not defined 'joe','yes' and 'show' I'm not sure if it's one of those.   It is a sound close to the double 'l' in William.


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## touir

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> There is a pronunciation that may not correspond to the options you have listed. As you have not defined 'joe','yes' and 'show' I'm not sure if it's one of those. It is a sound close to the double 'l' in William.


I agree, this is the sound that _Brazilian dude_ mentioned (i.e. the "ll" in million) and it's also the way that they usually describe the Spanish "ll" in textbooks here in the UK.
However, I think that most Spanish people (I mean, those from Spain) these days are "yeístas"...i.e. they don't distinguish the "ll" from the "y" (as Jelby has mentioned), although I'm just basing that on what I've read.


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## Liliana15

Hola! aquí van mis respuestas:

1) Where are you from? *Colombia*

How do you pronounce?
2) me *ll*amo
*a-* *(joe) **

3) pandi*ll*a
*a-* *(joe) **

4) *y*o
*a-* *(joe) *

5) o*y*e
*a-* *(joe) *

6) vo*y*
*b- (yes) *

*** En teoría la pronunciación de "ll" y "y" es distinta; "ll" sonaría similar al "lh" del portugués, de manera similar a como lo describe Leprechaunette. Sin embargo, en la práctica se pronuncian igual, aunque he notado que las personas mayores sí las diferencian.


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## linagabriela

En la ciudad de Buenos Aires, ll e y se pronuncian igual, generalmente como sh en show. Otra pronunciación, que generalmente adjudicamos a la clase alta, es como s en pleasure, que en condiciones (como al darle énfasis) puede llegar a la fuerza de la j en joe. Pero en general me parece que en hispanoamérica se pronuncian más como y en yellow. No sé si en muchos países hacen una diferencia entre ll e y.


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## cheshire

I heard that "y" and "ll" are pronounced differently in Spanish speaking regions. Could you explain in which area and how those are pronounced?


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## gonza_arg

In Buenos Aires city, Argentina, we pronunce both of them like your _sh,_ for instance: English. But it is only here and it is not so correct.


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## cheshire

Are you sure it's ʃ (English "sh") that you're talking about? Isn't it ʒ (French "g" as in "gêne")? (For IPA symbols, click here)


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## Redline2200

gonza_arg said:


> In Buenos Aires city, Argentina, we pronunce both of them like your _sh,_ for instance: English. But it is only here and it is not so correct.


 
Not so correct? I am no Argentinian, but that is the accent I use when I speak Spanish, and I for one would never say it is "not so correct"! 

Regional differences are part of what makes spoken language (be it Spanish, English or any language) flavorful and interesting; it is what gives each different area its uniqueness and identity. The pronunciation of the Buenos Aires region is tribute to its past and history. To many, the sounds of the Spanish there are very similar to Italian, which is a result of the huge amount of Italian immigrants to the region. The "sh" pronunciation of "y" and "ll" very much attribute to this as the "sh" sound is common in Italian. 

If you call this "not so correct" then we should also say that the Spaniards' pronunciation of "z" and "c" is not so correct. We should say the Caribbean style of dropping the "s" sounds is incorrect. Perhaps the conservative style of speaking found in Mexico and central America is not so correct.....but then, who is correct?
In my opinion, the differences in spoken Spanish give it the flavor the language has and make it one of the most interesting languages on the planet. 
Regardless of which region you come from, you should be proud of how you speak!


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## Redline2200

cheshire said:


> Are you sure it's ʃ (English "sh") that you're talking about? Isn't it ʒ (French "g" as in "gêne")? (For IPA symbols, click here)


 
They use both in the region quite commonly actually. From my own experience, it depends on the person and the word as to whether you will hear "ʃ" or "ʒ".


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## Sprache

I have heard some Spanish speakers say the ll and y almost like the English J. So, _Ya sé_ was almost like _Ja sé_. This J would be pronounced the English way. Where are these people from?


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## Redline2200

Sprache said:


> I have heard some Spanish speakers say the ll and y almost like the English J. So, _Ya sé_ was almost like _Ja sé_. This J would be pronounced the English way. Where are this people from?


 
People from all over the Spanish speaking world use this....I pay _very_ close attention to the differences in pronunciation in the different Spanish speaking regions and I can say that there is no real rule about where this is used. I have heard it used in Spain and Guatemala, and I have heard people from Mexico, Chile, Peru, Argentina (but you wouldn't be as likely to hear it there), and Columbia use it the same way.
It really just depends!


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## cheshire

Redline2200 said:
			
		

> The "sh" pronunciation of "y" and "ll" very much attribute to this as the "sh" sound is common in Italian.


Could you elaborate on this? I tend to associate the Spanish "ll" with rather "gli."


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## mazbook

Hi Redline,





Redline2200 said:


> People from all over the Spanish speaking world use this....I pay _very_ close attention to the differences in pronunciation in the different Spanish speaking regions and I can say that there is no real rule about where this is used. I have heard it used in Spain and Guatemala, and I have heard people from Mexico, Chile, Peru, Argentina (but you wouldn't be as likely to hear it there), and Columbia use it the same way.
> It really just depends!


Actually, the English J is more dʒ, which has a very definite d sound at the start.  The Spanish ll and y, *when pronounced in this way*, is more of a ʒ sound, as in the word beige, with no d sound at the start.  This is a very common pronunciation here in México, but I seem to hear it much more frequently and stronger in folks with less education.

Saludos desde Mazatlán


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## cheshire

> y: /j/ in Spain and Latin America. ʒ (French "g") in Argentina.
> ll: /l/ in Spain (just like Italian "gli"). /j/ in Latin America. ʒ (French "g") in Argentina.


 


			
				a Japanese source said:
			
		

> y ：スペイン、中南米で /j/（ヤ行の子音）。ラプラタ川流域（南米南部）では「ジ（フランス語 g, j の子音）。
> 
> ll：スペインでは「リャ、リェ（イタリア語 gli の発音）。中南米で /j/（ヤ行の子音）。ラプラタ川流域（南米南部）では「ジ（フランス語 g, j の子音）。


 
Could you tell me if this source is describing the sounds correct?


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## mazbook

Hola Cheshire:  No, I don't believe so.  The three common pronunciations of y and ll are:

/ʒ/ Almost anywhere in the Spanish speaking world, but not the accepted *correct* pronunciation.  As in the English word beige.

/y/ As in the English yes, but more highly stressed, I like to write it phonetically as /ý/.  This is the accepted correct pronunciation.

/ʃ/ This seems to be a purely Argentine pronunciation.  It's the English sh.

At least this is what I've learned/been told in many discussions of the subject.

Saludos desde Mazatlán


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## MarcB

cheshire said:


> Could you tell me if this source is describing the sounds correct?


Chesire, Unfortunately it is not so simple. ll almost as gli is a conservative form found mostly in the rural northern part of Spain and mostly in the central often mountainous areas of South America. The j and y sounds for y and ll can both be found in many countries and both are often found in the same country. The sh and s as in pleasure are not limited to BA. Note that I said mostly as there are variations.
Hpefully you will get more answers with more specific regions and the pronunciation.


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## cheshire

Thanks amigos and amigas, let me ask one more question: 
Who would tend to distinguish "ll" from "y" in their pronunciation? I guess most people pronounce them the same way...?


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## mazbook

Cheshire, I think you would find a differenciation between ll and y only in rural northern Spain where the ll is pronounced gli, as MarcB wrote.  Even then, I think it's only the intervocalic ll, as in villa, not an initial ll as in llave, but I could be wrong.

I have heard of this pronunciation, but I've never actually heard it used by anyone.

Saludos desde Mazatlán


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## cheshire

So, most speakers speak those phonemes the same way.

Doesn't it cause any misunderstanding?


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## mazbook

Hola cheshire, No, as there are few (if any) homophones that could use one or the other and mean different things, I haven't heard of any misunderstanding due to ll or y pronunciation.  It's the b or v pronunciation (both exactly the same everywhere in the Spanish speaking world) that seems to give most people problems.  Then, of course, there is ha and a.  Both pronounced the same with two quite different meanings.

Although Spanish is a _nearly_ phonetic language, there are some things that become troublesome for someone learning, but ll and y aren't one of those things.

Saludos desde Mazatlán


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## cheshire

Mazbook, you're a superman!


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## mazbook

Cheshire, NOT a superman, but a serious scholar of Spanish pronunciation.  I should also have mentioned that NONE of these rules are for the y when it is used as a vowel.  Then it's pronounced the same as the i.  Closest is the English ee as in see.

Saludos desde Mazatlán


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## Filis Cañí

The difference is so subtle, that you'll never go wrong by pronouncing both as the /y/ in yellow.


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## mazbook

Estoy absolutemente de acuerdo, Filis Cañi.

Saludos desde Mazatlán


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## Laztana

Hi,

I find this discussion really interesting and a bit surprising. I come from the very north of Spain and I've travelled quite intensively along the north coast of my country and I have never ever heard "ll" pronounced as "gli". In Spain, the difference between "ll" and "y" is very very subtle...so subtle that we hardly ever aknowledge it exists. Both of them sound very much like "y" in "yes" and can't be distinguish. However, the pronuntiation in South America can be very different from the one in Spain.


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## Outsider

mazbook said:


> /(1)/ Almost anywhere in the Spanish speaking world, but not the accepted *correct* pronunciation.  As in the English word beige. *No, it's not the same.*
> 
> /(2)/ *As in the English yes, but more highly stressed,* I like to write it phonetically as /ý/.  This is the accepted correct pronunciation.
> 
> /(3)/ This seems to be a purely Argentine pronunciation.  It's the English sh.
> 
> *However, in Argentina you will also find this pronunciation.
> 
> And sometimes the phoneme is realized as an affricate.*


The symbols you used were not in the IPA. I've taken the liberty of adding links to the IPA symbols, lest someone be confused.


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## Duometri

Hi, I´m a new kid in town. 

In the Spanish from Spain, the correct pronunciation is similar to the Italian "gli", or as an "l" followed by "y". For instance, "paella" should be pronounced as "paelya". It is not a typical pronunciation of the towns of the North, but the correct pronunciation. In many regions of Spain, specially the South, there are no differences in the pronunciation of "ll" and "y". It is a mistake called "yeísmo".

Best Regards.


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## Outsider

Miren también El acento argentino.


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## pomme_pomme

I haven't done much research on this, so please excuse my ignorance. Yesterday I happened to get chatting (loosely) with a woman from Medellin. Now, I've never observed the way Castillians, and Hispanics of different regions, speak. Of course I appreciate that there are regional differences in both Spain and Latin America, but I was really surprised when this woman pronounced Medellin as "mede-dzhin". I've seen many Spanish language movies, and in none of them do I recall any Latin Americans pronouncing "ll" as "dzh", but maybe that's because I was paying more attention to trying to read the subtitles rather than focus on the sound of the speech. I know for a fact Puerto Ricans pronounce "ll" as "yuh", and I read today that Argentinians pronounce it as "sh".

Can anyone explain further, and alert me to any particularities in your own pronunciation of Spanish?  Muchas gracias a todos!


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## patin

I think the "ll" sound, at least the way we pronounce it in Costa Rica, doesn´t exist in English.

for example: yo-yo I would write the pronunciation like eo-eo (or in spanish io-io)

but we pronounce it the same way "ll" an "y" 

I don't know if somebody else can explain that better.

patin


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## pomme_pomme

you explained fine, patin. Now what about everyone else eh?


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## Outsider

Search these forums and the Net for the keyword _yeísmo_. That should clear your doubts.


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## pomme_pomme

thanks Outsider!


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## Outsider

Two useful pages on the pronunciation of Spanish:

Wikipedia: Phonology of Spanish
Fonética: Los sonidos del español


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## Abbey123

En España hay muchas diferencias de acento entre las distintas regiones. Imagino que los no castellano parlantes pueden no distinguirlas, pero los de aquí sí. El yeísmo es pronunciar el sonido de la "Y" y de la "ll" de forma diferenciada, cuando deben pronunciarse del mismo modo. Se considera algo totalmente incorrecto. 
Un saludo


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## patin

Lo que digo es que en Costa Rica se pronuncia del mismo modo, es un regionalismo, ya que eso esté correcto o no, no es lo que trato de aclarar aquí. Ahora no creo que nadie pueda hacer cambiar el modo de pronunciar algo a un país entero, la misma RAE ha tenido que validar muchas cosas.

patin


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## Abbey123

Claro, es en España donde se considera incorrecto, en otras zonas, entre ellas en muchos países de América latina, no se considera incorrecto porque es un rasgo diferenciador propio.
Un saludo


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## 50something

The sound of the letter "LL"  varies according to each country and speaking habits. Wher I come from we pronounce it the way we think it should be, which is like the consonants "gl" together in the italian word "meraviglioso), and as I see it, in very few countries. However, once I wrote about the argentinians from Buenos Aires particularly, though the northern guys are good at it, the "porteños" just can't pronounce it the way we do, it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to produce that sound, which to me is wrong, but someone told me that it is not wrong necessarily but "different". I "sort of" agree. I personnaly like the way argentinians speak, loud and different, they don't even pronounce the "Y" the way it should sound, depending on the location of the letter in the word. It is very curious to see that the sound of the "LL" and the "Y" are exactly the same in words like "gallina" and "ayer". Anyway, I enjoy the way my friends speak, they are fun no matter the way they speak.

I believe english speakers CAN produce the correct sound for tthe "LL".

A similar thing occurs with the "Ñ", for the english speaker sounds like "gn" in italian, but I noticed that argentinians (porteños) make it sound like "NI", for instance instead of "mañana" they pronounce it like "maniana".

I might not be that accurate on what I am writing, but should give a glimpse on the matter.

Gary


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## pomme_pomme

Outsider said:


> Two useful pages on the pronunciation of Spanish:



Outsidem the first link pretty much goes over my head, but the second one is very interesting. That reminds me actually, the woman from Medellin pronounced "d" in "todo" almost like a cross between "L" and "N", and also some words beginning with b as if the b was almost an m.


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## Outsider

pomme_pomme said:


> Outsidem the first link pretty much goes over my head [...]


This one may be easier to digest. But do search the WR forums as well. This topic has been discussed here many times, both in this forum, and in the Solo Español forum.

Basically, as others have already said, although the digraph "ll" is pronounced roughly as an English "y" by most Spanish speakers, there are regional variations.


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## pomme_pomme

Thanks again Outsider. Very informative.


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## MarX

Duometri said:


> Hi, I´m a new kid in town.
> 
> In the Spanish from Spain, the correct pronunciation is similar to the Italian "gli", or as an "l" followed by "y". For instance, "paella" should be pronounced as "paelya". It is not a typical pronunciation of the towns of the North, but the correct pronunciation. In many regions of Spain, specially the South, there are no differences in the pronunciation of "ll" and "y". It is a mistake called "yeísmo".
> 
> Best Regards.



Which like _everybody_ is doing. 
Makes me wonder why it is still called a mistake.

There is a difference between "ll" and "y" in Valencian, like Valencian "paella", but you don't have to imitate the way something is pronounced in the original language all the time. Just look at how many Spaniards pronounce English words. 

Grüsse,


MarX


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## Ynez

MarX said:


> Which like _everybody_ is doing.
> Makes me wonder why it is still called a mistake. I didn't know it is a mistake...
> 
> There is a difference between "ll" and "y" in Valencian, like Valencian "paella", but you don't have to imitate the way something is pronounced in the original language all the time. Just look at how many Spaniards pronounce English words.  true
> Grüsse,
> 
> 
> MarX



I pronounce *ll* and *y* in the same way (paella, yo), and in that same way I pronounce the English words *judge* and *jail*, for instance.

And people said like "yes" or "yellow". No, those I pronounce with a strong *i*. That is, the Spanish "hielo" would be similar to the English "yellow"


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## Antpax

Duometri said:


> Hi, I´m a new kid in town.
> 
> In the Spanish from Spain, the correct pronunciation is similar to the Italian "gli", or as an "l" followed by "y". For instance, "paella" should be pronounced as "paelya". It is not a typical pronunciation of the towns of the North, but the correct pronunciation. In many regions of Spain, specially the South, there are no differences in the pronunciation of "ll" and "y". *It is a mistake called "yeísmo".*
> 
> Best Regards.


 
Not any more. Let´s have a look about it in DPD (the underline is mine):




> *yeísmo. Consiste en pronunciar como /y/, en sus distintas variedades regionales, el dígrafo ll (→ ll): [kabáyo] por caballo, [yéno] por lleno. El yeísmo está extendido en amplias zonas de España y de América y, aunque quedan aún lugares en que pervive la distinción en la pronunciación de ll e y, es prácticamente general entre los jóvenes, incluso entre los de regiones tradicionalmente distinguidoras. Su presencia en amplias zonas, así como su creciente expansión, hacen del yeísmo un fenómeno aceptado en la norma culta.*
> 
> 
> *Diccionario panhispánico de dudas ©2005*
> _*Real Academia Española © Todos los derechos reservados*_


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## Ynez

In Catalonia and Valencia, for instance, they pronounce *ll* differently, but I think that's because of the catalan language.


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## MarX

As I mentioned in another thread, the Valencians and Catalans I know do distinguish "ll" and "y" when speaking Valencian/Catalan, yet they don't do it when they speak Spanish.


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## Ynez

Hmm, there may be a difference between those who were born into speaking Catalan (I'd say they distinguish *ll/y* in Spanish too, and it's something characteristic of their Spanish accent) and those who learnt Catalan outside their homes (probably these don't distinguish *ll/y*). 

I'm not sure of the second half because I haven't been paying attention. It's just that the first half are easily recognized for their accent, which includes that particular *ll* they have


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## flying_spur

well, I am not good in phonetics and it's special symbols, but still will try to explain my problem clearly...)))
in my Spanish coursebook it is said that in Spain *ll* is pronounced in the same way as *ñ*
so "me llamo" should be pronounced with very soft l (como "*royal*" en español) - 'me l'yamo' (but not just "me yamo") = niña - nin'ya
and as far as I remember when I was attending courses of native Spaniard long time ago he explained it to me in the same way.
but here I have read about the same pronounciation for ll and y (yamo=ayer) as an official rule. so has anyone heard smth of this kind?
not mentioning english "j" for both in Latin America))) it's rather clear as I've heard it in many latin songs...


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## Outsider

flying_spur said:


> but here I have read about the same pronounciation for ll and y (yamo=ayer) as an official rule. so has anyone heard smth of this kind?


It's not official (there is no official pronunciation, as far as I am aware), but it is the most widespread. If anything, the pronunciation you described would be the official one, but only a minority of native speakers still use it today.



flying_spur said:


> not mentioning english "j" for both in Latin America))) [...]


Only in some parts of Latin America, not in most of it.


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## MarX

flying_spur said:


> well, I am not good in phonetics and it's special symbols, but still will try to explain my problem clearly...)))
> in my Spanish coursebook it is said that in Spain *ll* is pronounced in the same way as *ñ*
> so "me llamo" should be pronounced with very soft l (como "*royal*" en español) - 'me l'yamo' (but not just "me yamo") = niña - nin'ya
> and as far as I remember when I was attending courses of native Spaniard long time ago he explained it to me in the same way.
> but here I have read about the same pronounciation for ll and y (yamo=ayer) as an official rule. so has anyone heard smth of this kind?
> not mentioning english "j" for both in Latin America))) it's rather clear as I've heard it in many latin songs...


It's true that *ll* is supposed to be pronounced like a quick *ly*, but in reality, quite few people do this, and their number is decreasing.
Most native Spanish speakers nowadays don't distinguish *ll* and *y* when speaking.

Saludos


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## flying_spur

Muchas gracias por vuestras respuestras, ahora está claro!


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## espana1

deja vu...the "ja" is the same sound as LL Y in argentin.


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## MarX

espana1 said:


> deja vu...the "ja" is the same sound as LL Y in argentin.


The pronunciation like SH in "she" is also common in Ríoplatense.

uruguayo = uruguasho
castellano = kahteshano
yo = sho
cuello = kuesho
llorar = shorar
ya = sha
etc.


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## espana1

It has more of the "j" from deja..It comes from the italian language--as many aspects of southern america are


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## MarX

espana1 said:


> It has more of the "j" from deja..It comes from the italian language--as many aspects of southern america are


As far as I know, Italian, at least the standard, doesn't have the *zh* sound, but *sh* is quite common (_nascita, lasciare, conosci, capisci_, etc.).

But I'll let the Ríoplatensers answer themselves.


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## Redline2200

> The pronunciation like SH in "she" is also common in Ríoplatense.
> 
> uruguayo = uruguasho
> castellano = kahteshano
> yo = sho
> cuello = kuesho
> llorar = shorar
> ya = sha
> etc.


 
Although I am no native speaker, MarX is 100% correct.

I have spent much time watching Argentinian films and learning the Argentinian way of speaking (in one year I am going to live in Buenos Aires for 6 months). 
I even spent a little over two weeks in Buenos Aires last summer and made some friends from which I learned a lot (and I say all that to give myself credentials for being from the US and claiming to know how they speak haha).
The accent has certainly rubbed off on me, in spite of how strangely the Mexicans here in the states look at me when I open my mouth.
I can say that nearly everything I heard from the people of my age (I'm 21) while I was down there was "sh":

*sho (yo)*
*cómo te shamás (cómo te llamás) *
*sha (ya) *
*está shoviendo (está lloviendo)*
...so on and so forth.

I did hear "zh" a lot from some of the older people as well...



espana1 said:


> It has more of the "j" from deja..It comes from the italian language--as many aspects of southern america are


...but in common speech I must admit that I very rarely heard any English "j"s. Espana1, you are quite correct though about the Italian influence. It can definitely be heard in the way they speak, and perhaps one could make an argument that the "sh" sound comes from Italian as well.

Perhaps a real river plate native would be able to lend more than I could to the topic though .


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## MarX

Redline2200 said:


> Although I am no native speaker, MarX is 100% correct.
> 
> I have spent much time watching Argentinian films and learning the Argentinian way of speaking (in one year I am going to live in Buenos Aires for 6 months).
> I even spent a little over two weeks in Buenos Aires last summer and made some friends from which I learned a lot (and I say all that to give myself credentials for being from the US and claiming to know how they speak haha).
> The accent has certainly rubbed off on me, in spite of how strangely the Mexicans here in the states look at me when I open my mouth.
> I can say that nearly everything I heard from the people of my age (I'm 21) while I was down there was "sh":
> 
> *sho (yo)*
> *cómo te shamás (cómo te llamás) *
> *sha (ya) *
> *está shoviendo (está lloviendo)*
> ...so on and so forth.
> 
> I did hear "zh" a lot from some of the older people as well...
> 
> ...but in common speech I must admit that I very rarely heard any English "j"s. Espana1, you are quite correct though about the Italian influence. It can definitely be heard in the way they speak, and perhaps one could make an argument that the "sh" sound comes from Italian as well.
> 
> Perhaps a real river plate native would be able to lend more than I could to the topic though .


I also learned Ríoplatense Spanish through TV shows and friends.

It definitely sounds like Italian.

But I'm getting off topic here.
I'M sure there's other threads talking about Ríoplatense.


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## avok

mazbook said:


> Hola Cheshire: No, I don't believe so. The three common pronunciations of y and ll are:
> 
> /ʒ/ Almost anywhere in the Spanish speaking world, but not the accepted *correct* pronunciation. As in the English word beige.


 

I guess you mean "dj" here (J as in John) not "zh" (French j). Because "zh" along with "sh" is believed to be found merely in Argentina. From my point of view, I only here "sh" in Argentinian speech.


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## mcorazao

mazbook said:


> Hola cheshire, No, as there are few (if any) homophones that could use one or the other and mean different things, I haven't heard of any misunderstanding due to ll or y pronunciation. It's the b or v pronunciation (both exactly the same everywhere in the Spanish speaking world) that seems to give most people problems. Then, of course, there is ha and a. Both pronounced the same with two quite different meanings.
> 
> Although Spanish is a _nearly_ phonetic language, there are some things that become troublesome for someone learning, but ll and y aren't one of those things.
> 
> Saludos desde Mazatlán


 

Just to clarify some misunderstandings, the following are the "classical" ways to pronounce various phonemes (i.e. what was considered "proper" in Spain up until the last century or two).b - Like the English b​
v - A unique sound that is a blending of the b and f sounds​
s - Like the English s​
z and c before e and i - Like the English soft th sound (although in Andalucia it was always like s)​
y - Like the English y​
ll - Like the "lli" in the English million​Most well-educated Spanish-speakers recognize these even if they are considered very archaic (except in specific regions that have preserved them). In addition, certain regions (notably Argentina) have invented their own pronunciations that never existed in Spain.

As was mentioned the rural areas preserve older pronunciations more than the urban areas. I can tell you from personal knowledge that the Peruvian highlands tend to preserve the classical pronunciations of v and ll (but not z because of the Andalucian influence in the Americas).

P.S. In response to the previous statement Spanish is entirely phonetic in theory. The only qualification to that is that because of the rapid borrowing of the last two centuries it has been difficult to discourage people from using foreign language spellings (the "right" thing to do is to transliterate but the foreign spellings are sometimes becoming "de facto" standards these days).


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## MarX

avok said:


> I guess you mean "dj" here (J as in John) not "zh" (French j). Because "zh" along with "sh" is believed to be found merely in Argentina. From my point of view, I only here "sh" in Argentinian speech.


I think many Uruguayans also pronounce "y" and "ll" as 'sh'.

So "Uruguayo" sounds like "Uruguasho".


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## jj2008

cochabamba said:


> The sound of the letter "LL" varies according to each country and speaking habits. Wher I come from we pronounce it the way we think it should be, which is like the consonants "gl" together in the italian word "meraviglioso), and as I see it, in very few countries. However, once I wrote about the argentinians from Buenos Aires particularly, though the northern guys are good at it, the "porteños" just can't pronounce it the way we do, it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to produce that sound, which to me is wrong, but someone told me that it is not wrong necessarily but "different". I "sort of" agree. I personnaly like the way argentinians speak, loud and different, they don't even pronounce the "Y" the way it should sound, depending on the location of the letter in the word. It is very curious to see that the sound of the "LL" and the "Y" are exactly the same in words like "gallina" and "ayer". Anyway, I enjoy the way my friends speak, they are fun no matter the way they speak.
> 
> I believe english speakers CAN produce the correct sound for tthe "LL".
> 
> A similar thing occurs with the "Ñ", for the english speaker sounds like "gn" in italian, but I noticed that argentinians (porteños) make it sound like "NI", for instance instead of "mañana" they pronounce it like "maniana".
> 
> I might not be that accurate on what I am writing, but should give a glimpse on the matter.
> 
> Gary


How can it be wrong? That’s the standard for rioplatense Spanish. In Argentina, well at least in Buenos Aires, they pronounce the “y” and “ll” sounds with a “sh” sound, or with a “zh” sound, and it’s a totally different pronunciation than most Spanish speaking countries. Plus, the “porteño” accent has been heavily influenced by Italian. I think your comments were rather rude, sorry, but it came off sounding rude. Who’s to say that Bolivians speak a superior Spanish, I’ve never heard anyone say that Bolivian Spanish is any “purer” than any other form of Spanish. Argentine Spanish is just as proper. But anyway as for the “ll” and “y’s” sounding different, as least in Spain, they do not distinguish between the two, and in Mexico as well, they pronounce them the same.


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## Agró

jj2008 said:


> But anyway as for the “ll” and “y’s” sounding different, as least in Spain, they do not distinguish between the two, and in Mexico as well, they pronounce them the same.



No exactamente, o no en todos los casos. Es cierto que la mayoría de la población no distingue entre 'y' y 'll'. Creo que en poco tiempo, quizá una o dos generaciones, nadie hará la distinción. Pero todavía existe un grupo de hablantes que hace la distinción perfectamente (sobre todo en la esquina noreste del país, en Cataluña). En todo caso, no entiendo cómo un rasgo tan irrelevante en cuanto a la comprensión del mensaje genera tantas dudas y comentarios.


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## kodiakbear

I've spent quite some effort to get many opinions on this issue over the last several years, and this is what I've found.

All or most of Spain as well as most of Latin American and the Caribbean pronounce both ll and y like the J in *Joe*.

It seems that Cuba and Northern Mexico pronounce them like *Yes*, and Argentina pronounces it like *Show*.

However this is where things get odd. It seems to be a popular source of disinformation in the US that it is over whelming pronounced like *Yes* around the world, and you will often hear it (incorrectly) said that the *Joe *is only in Argentina. This is not accurate, but perhaps it persists because Cuba and Northern Mexico are our close neighbors, so their opinion gets more play.

I'm just a passive observer, but this issue does cause a great deal of trouble for Spanish learners because it creates big problems for our confidence level. When in Rome do like the Romans is probably the best guideline.


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## linagabriela

I totally agree with jj2008. There are no ´correct´ or ´incorrect´ ways to pronounce a phoneme, just regional variations (allophones). The pronunciation ´sh´ as in ¨she¨ for ´ll´ and ´y´ is common in Rio de La Plata area (Buenos Aires and Montevideo, Uruguay,for instance), but not in all Argentina. In many provinces it is pronounced as the ´j´ in ¨yes¨. (I can´t tell about the Uruguayan regions.) Moreover, there are class differences. The pronunciation (zh) as in ´leisure´  is common in upper-class people, and there is even a stronger ´dz´ as in Italian ¨Georgio¨. Speaking about better or worse pronunciations makes no sense, you can prefer the one you want and respect all the others.


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## jaxavi

kodiakbear said:


> I've spent quite some effort to get many opinions on this issue over the last several years, and this is what I've found.
> 
> All or most of Spain as well as most of Latin American and the Caribbean pronounce both ll and y like the J in *Joe*.
> 
> It seems that Cuba and Northern Mexico pronounce them like *Yes*, and Argentina pronounces it like *Show*.
> 
> However this is where things get odd. It seems to be a popular source of disinformation in the US that it is over whelming pronounced like *Yes* around the world, and you will often hear it (incorrectly) said that the *Joe *is only in Argentina. This is not accurate, but perhaps it persists because Cuba and Northern Mexico are our close neighbors, so their opinion gets more play.
> 
> I'm just a passive observer, but this issue does cause a great deal of trouble for Spanish learners because it creates big problems for our confidence level. When in Rome do like the Romans is probably the best guideline.



I don't agree with your findings. In many countries, the pronunciation of "y" and "ll" vary among speakers and even the same speaker may vary his/her pronunciation depending on where the "y" or "ll" is in the word. I can tell you that in Spain (I lived there for a while), not all speakers pronounce both letters as the "j" in "joe". To the contrary, most speakers would pronounce the "ll" of a word such as "ella" with a sound more similar to the "y" in "yes" (not exact, but similar). This is true in many countries in Central America and South America. 

In Uruguay, I would say that everyone pronounces "y" and "ll" as "sh".


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## nand-o

Sin ánimo de contradecir a nadie, yo lo resumiría así:

-1) La mayoría de los hispanohablantes no distingue entre "y" y "ll" en posición intervocálica (alófonos por aproximación, al margen). Así, "ho*y*o" y "esco*ll*o" son pronunciadas exactamente igual.

-2) La mayoría de hispanohablantes escoge entre dos opciones para pronunciar ese único sonido. Unos como */ʝ/* y otros como */ʎ/ *

-3) En posición inicial o tras consonante lo más frecuente es */dʒ/*, siendo también habitual (correcto o incorrecto) */ʎ/
*
-4) Existen otras opciones minoritarias, especialmente difundidas en el cono sur (Argentina, Uruguay, etc.)  */ʒ/ *y */ʃ/*

-5) Lo importante no es tanto es sonido que se escoja, como intentar que siempre sea el mismo. Será cerebro del oyente el encargado de discriminarlo del resto de sonidos del hablante y adaptarlo como fonema.

 Para oír y ver */ʝ/*, */ʎ/*,*/dʒ/*,* /ʒ/*,*/ʃ/*, : http://www.uiowa.edu/~acadtech/phonetics/spanish/frameset.html


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## linagabriela

Perdón, nand-o, no es sobre el tema puntual, pero ¿cómo hacés para escribir en símbolos fonéticos en la computadora?


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## Sköll

nand-o said:


> -2) La mayoría de hispanohablantes escoge entre dos opciones para pronunciar ese único sonido. Unos como */ʝ/* y otros como */ʎ/ *
> http://www.uiowa.edu/~acadtech/phonetics/spanish/frameset.html


    Pero hay (mucha?) gente como Pedro que la pronuncia de ambas maneras según la posición (pandilla/voy) o según le de la gana (yo, oye), ¿no?


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## nand-o

Sköll said:


> Pero hay (mucha?) gente como Pedro que la pronuncia de ambas maneras según la posición (pandilla/voy) o según le de la gana (yo, oye), ¿no?


Hola:
El punto segundo se refiere al primero: "_-1) La mayoría de los hispanohablantes no distingue entre "y" y "ll" en posición intervocálica (alófonos por aproximación, al margen). Así, "ho*y*o" y "esco*ll*o" son pronunciadas exactamente igual_". "Voy" no está en posición intervocálica.

La mayoría es la mayoría. La pronunciación puede variar según zonas geográficas o incluso entre personas de un mismo lugar. De hecho, en mi caso "y" en monosílabos es un diptongo o incluso puede llegar a ser muda: "yo ya te dije" es [io a te dixe]; pero yo no pronuncio como la mayoría.  

También varía según la posición en la cadena fónica: "no voy" no lo mismo que "no voy a ir" (no voyair)



> ...o según le de la gana (yo, oye), ¿no?


Realmente no es así, en el habla real la pronunciación no siempre es consciente y voluntaria. 


			
				Pedro said:
			
		

> 4) *y*o
> 
> *a-* *(joe) *
> *b- (yes) (según me da).*
> 
> 5) o*y*e
> 
> *a-* *(joe) *
> *b- (yes) (según me da).*


Ese "según me da" tiene más de inconsciente que de voluntario y refleja la tendencia mayoritaria a pronunciar "ll" e "y" como un único sónido; bien */dʒ/* o bien */ʎ/* (en posición inicial). 

Dos cosas más, quizá no sea muy ortodoxo incluir entre barras (//) los sonidos porque ésa es la notación habitual para escribir fonemas; y en todos los casos anteriores hablamos de distintos sonidos para un mismo fonema. 
La notación es la que se utiliza en la página mencionada y puede diferir de otras.
No pretendo sentar cátedra, son solo valoraciones personales y como tales asumo que puedo estar equivocado.



			
				linagabriela said:
			
		

> Perdón, nand-o, no es sobre el tema puntual, pero ¿cómo hacés para escribir en símbolos fonéticos en la computadora?


 Hay dos formas, puedes descargarte una fuente con el IPA (Intenational Phonetic Alphabet); o más simple, buscas una página -wikipedia, por ejemplo- donde aparezcan en algún artículo y copias y pegas o "copiás y pegás" ¿Es así, no?.


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## linagabriela

nand-o said:


> Hola:
> 
> 
> Hay dos formas, puedes descargarte una fuente con el IPA (Intenational Phonetic Alphabet); o más simple, buscas una página -wikipedia, por ejemplo- donde aparezcan en algún artículo y copias y pegas o "copiás y pegás" ¿Es así, no?.



Ja ja, es así, ¡gracias!


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## iMak7

Hi!

I am new to this Spanish forums, it's been a few days that I started learning Spanish. Since I am a huge fan of Shakira, I am concentrating on Colombian pronunciation. One of the first thing that I noticed was difference in the pronunciation of certain letters. I posted a thread for each question.

*ll/y*

Some pronounce it as 'yuh', some as 'liuh' and some as 'jah'

When should it be pronounced like that and is it regional difference?

Please check my other questions too

Thanks!


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## Tritón37

In Spanish: no difference in pronuniation between these two letters.

gp


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## Oldy Nuts

I don't agree. Around here we tend to pronounce "olla" and "hoya" exactly the same, but this is not so in all the Spanish speaking world. Also, I would say that what sound is pronounced where they are not differentiated tends to vary from country to country, and from region to region in Spain.

And the case of "b" and "v" is even more complicated, at least around here, because we do have two different sounds, but tend to use them randomly. That is, there are cases where we tend to pronounce a "b" very nearly as I was taught too many decades ago, but there are others when we tend to pronounce it more close to how I was taught we should pronounce a "v". And the same thing happens with the letter "v".


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