# Urdu: gender of fikr



## tonyspeed

I read an interesting article from the Urdu Annual that talked about how the gender of fikr has changed in Urdu from feminine to masculine. (In addition to other changes)

What gender is fikr for you?


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## Qureshpor

tonyspeed said:


> I read an interesting article from the Urdu Annual that talked about how the gender of fikr has changed in Urdu from feminine to masculine. (In addition to other changes)
> 
> What gender is fikr for you?




Feminine.

nah fikr-i-safar thii, nah parvaa-i-manzil
gayaa jo zamaanah guzar, yaad aayaa!

Sarwar Alam Raz


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## BP.

Feminine for me. But masculine for some others, I think those from dabistaan ee dillii.


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## tonyspeed

BelligerentPacifist said:


> Feminine for me. But masculine for some others, I think those from dabistaan ee dillii.



www.urdustudies.com/pdf/26/11ElenaBashir.pdf p.17 "Urdu and Lingustics: A Fraught but Evolving Relationship" 

She seems to be speaking specifically about Pakistan.


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## Faylasoof

BelligerentPacifist said:


> Feminine for me. But masculine for some others, _*I think those from dabistaan ee dillii*_.


 _*I doubt this BP SaaHib! 

*_Mir was a master poet of _dabestaan-e-dilli_ and though later, following his migration, he became the honoured guest and member of _dabistaan-e-lakhnau_, I don’t think he gave up his Dehlavi Urdu:

_ga__’ii__ hai __fikr__-e-pareshaaN kahaaN kahaaN mer__ii_
_nah is diyaar meN samjhaa ko’ii zabaaN merii
_
Mir Taqi Mir 

If people are starting to treat words like _fikr_ (and _qaum _- not up for discussion here, please!) as masculine then it shows the standard of Urdu teaching over the years. 

Mixing genders in languages that have evolved over centuries to have a standardised assignment of genders for nouns is regarded as serious grammatical error. True, some words can be treated either masculine or feminine and others can be one or the other depending on which _dabestaan_ (_dillii yaa lakhnau_) we are talking of as far as Urdu goes. But generally for most words we have well assigned gender in the standard language. I think _fikr_ has always been feminine!


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## BP.

I've heard the masculine fikr from a erudite, well educated and very well read Panjabi gentleman from two generations before me. He should represent a western Urdu. Alas he's no more and I can't go back and ask him his opinion now.


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## Faylasoof

BelligerentPacifist said:


> I've heard the masculine fikr from a erudite, well educated and very well read Panjabi gentleman from two generations before me. He should represent a western Urdu. Alas he's no more and I can't go back and ask him his opinion now.


 It might be a good idea to look up _farhang-e-aasafiyyah_ – great for western Urdu dialect!


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> It might be a good idea to look up _farhang-e-aasafiyyah_ – great for western Urdu dialect!




Farhang-i-aasifiyyah gives the word "fikr" as both feminine and masculine. Nur-ul-LuGhaat is somewhat more informative and I quote:

"Lakhnau meN muzakkar musta3mal hai...tazkiir-o-taaniis muxtalif fiih..." (In Lakhnau, it is used in the masculine...There is a difference of opinion in its gender). It then quotes couplets from the Lakhnavi poet (Aseer 1800-1881), who uses it both in the masculine and in the feminine gender.

qaraar aa hii gayaa, Gham meN jii saNbhal hii gayaa
ga'e vuh din kih jo *thaa fikr* jaan jaane *kaa

fikr *hai un ko mataa'-i-Husn ke niilaam *kii
*sair ho chhuTe agar bolii hamaare naam kii

Further down the page..

"ab dihlii meN muzakkar-o-mu'annas aur lakhnau meN mu'annas hii musta3mal hai". (Now in Delhi it is both masculine and feminine while in Lucknow it is used in the feminine).


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> Originally Posted by *Faylasoof*
> It might be a good idea to look up _farhang-e-aasafiyyah_ – great for western Urdu dialect!
> 
> 
> 
> Farhang-i-aasifiyyah gives the word "fikr" as both feminine and masculine. Nur-ul-LuGhaat is somewhat more informative and I quote:
> 
> "Lakhnau meN muzakkar musta3mal hai...tazkiir-o-taaniis muxtalif fiih..." (In Lakhnau, it is used in the masculine...There is a difference of opinion in its gender). It then quotes couplets from the Lakhnavi poet (Aseer 1800-1881), who uses it both in the masculine and in the feminine gender.
> 
> qaraar aa hii gayaa, Gham meN jii saNbhal hii gayaa
> ga'e vuh din kih jo *thaa fikr* jaan jaane *kaa
> 
> fikr *hai un ko mataa'-i-Husn ke niilaam *kii
> *sair ho chhuTe agar bolii hamaare naam kii
> 
> Further down the page..
> 
> "ab dihlii meN muzakkar-o-mu'annas aur _*lakhnau meN mu'annas hii musta3mal hai*_". (Now in Delhi it is both masculine and feminine while in Lucknow it is used in the feminine).
Click to expand...

Much obliged QP SaaHIb! I made that suggestion while at work so had no access to either of these important Urdu lexicons. _*Anyway, this is what I was looking for because this gender is what became our standard, eventually!*_

I also looked up my_ nasiim-ul-lughaat _and that too has _mu'annas_ for Luckhnow but _muzakkar_ for Delhi.


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## marrish

Surprisingly, we use fikr in Punjabi (and subsequently in Urdu) as a feminine noun.


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> Surprisingly, we use fikr in Punjabi (and subsequently in Urdu) as a feminine noun.



hasaNR-kheDaNR naal lage, suT gayoN DuugiyaaN *fikraaN*
 te paaTii liir puraaNRii vaaNgoN O TaNg gayoN vich kikraaN

MiyaaN Muhammad Baxsh (Saif-ul-Muluuk)

haNsii-khel saath lage (haiN), dhakel ga'e ho gahrii fikar meN
phaTii-puraanii dhajjii ke maanind O TaaNk ga'e ho kikar meN

(Faylasoof SaaHib, I hope  you are able to get the gist of my somewhat pathetic translation. The poet is saying, "haNsii-mazaaq go ek-saath hote haiN lekin tum to mujhe gahrii fikr meN pheNk ga'e ho; (goyaa) ek phaTii-puraanii dhajii kii tarH kiikar ke peR meN TaaNk ga'e ho! (yih kaisaa mazaaq hai?) yaad rahe kih kiikar ke peR meN patte nah hone ke baraabar hote haiN aur vuh baRe saxt nokiile kaaNToN se bharaa hotaa hai.)


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> hasaNR-kheDaNR naal lage, suT gayoN DuugiyaaN *fikraaN*
> te paaTii liir puraaNRii vaaNgoN O TaNg gayoN vich kikraaN
> 
> MiyaaN Muhammad Baxsh (Saif-ul-Muluuk)
> 
> haNsii-khel saath lage (haiN), dhakel ga'e ho gahrii fikar meN
> phaTii-puraanii dhajjii ke maanind O TaaNk ga'e ho kikar meN
> 
> (Faylasoof SaaHib, I hope  you are able to get the gist of my somewhat pathetic translation. The poet is saying, "haNsii-mazaaq go ek-saath hote haiN lekin tum to mujhe gahrii fikr meN pheNk ga'e ho; (goyaa) ek phaTii-puraanii dhajii kii tarH kiikar ke peR meN TaaNk ga'e ho! (yih kaisaa mazaaq hai?) yaad rahe kih kiikar ke peR meN patte nah hone ke baraabar hote haiN aur vuh baRe saxt nokiile kaaNToN se bharaa hotaa hai.)




I do get your drift! Or should we rather say MiyaaN Muhammad Baxsh's drift!  I always liked _saif-ul-muluuk_!


Here is another example of _fikr_ as feminine from another _lakhnavii_ poet. He begins like this,_ baRhii xirad kii tajallii se *fikr-e-insaanii *_and then say more about *fikr*: 


_dar aa'e nuqTa-e-mauhuum meN daqiiq ais*ii*_

_faro ho dhur kii gharaa'ii meN 3amiiq ais*ii*_

_HaqqiiqatoN kii shu3aa'oN se DhaufishaaN hai yeh

rumuuz-e-fiTrat-e-3aalam kii raazdaaN hai yeh

(Hurr lakhnavii)



_


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## marrish

Both last cited Hurr lakhnawii and Mirza Asadullah Khan Ghalib agree on the gender:



marrish said:


> View attachment 12028 Handwritten passage of Ghalib's letter from "Urduu-e-mu3allaa", Dehli, 1908
> اب نہ فارسی کی فکر نہ اُردو کا ذکر نہ دُنیا میں توقع نہ عقبیٰ کی اُمّید ۔ مَیں ہُوں اور اندوہ ناکامئ جاوید جیسا کہ خود ایک قصیدہ نعت کی تشبیب میں کہتا ہُوں؎۔
> 
> چشم کشودہ اند بکردار ہائے من ۔۔۔۔ زآیندہ نااُمیدم وازرفتہ شرمسار
> 
> ab nah faarsii *kii fikr* nah urduu kaa zikr nah dunyaa meN tawaqqu3 nah 3uqbaa kii ummiid.
> maiN huuN aur andoh-e-naa-kaamii2-e-jaawiid jaisaa kih xwud ek qaSiidah na3t kii tashbiib meN kahtaa huuN:
> 
> chashm kushuudah-and ba-kirdaar-haa-ye-man ... zi-aayandah naa-umiidam va az raftah sharmsaar


Given that Ghalib didn't reside in Lucknow and he used it as it is used today, I am sure the gender of the Delhi school is also feminine even if it used to be both at some point. After all, even in Punjabi it is feminine so I don't see any single way to agree with the thesis that the gender of this word changed in Pakistan. After all, Mirza Ghalib and others didn't live up to any near of the date Pakistan! In other words, I find the thesis utmost ill-researched. It seems it is easy to get through with _man-maanii_.

Now the researcher says in Qureshi (it must be the twenthieth century dictionary) it is indicated as masculine. Does it help her hypothesis - yes. But she is oblivious of the fact that in Delhi it used to be both or more masculine, several "centuries" ago.


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> [...]Now the researcher says in Qureshi (it must be the twenthieth century dictionary) it is indicated as masculine. Does it help her hypothesis - yes. But she is oblivious of the fact that in Delhi it used to be both or more masculine, several "centuries" ago.


I don't have access to this dictionary and it would be interesting to check if this is really true. I say this after reading the relevant part of this "thesis" in which the author states that Qureshi also gives the gender of "qaum" as masculine too. This I find incredible!


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## Dib

marrish said:


> Now the researcher says in Qureshi (it must be the twenthieth century dictionary) it is indicated as masculine. Does it help her hypothesis - yes. But she is oblivious of the fact that in Delhi it used to be both or more masculine, several "centuries" ago.



I think you guys are being unreasonably hard on her. All she does, is proposing some possible fields of linguistic work on Urdu, and mentioning some preliminary leads that justify such work. She hardly presents any research findings whatsoever in the paper. I am not familiar with her works on Urdu, but I am a bit more familiar with her works on Dardic languages of Pakistan. And she seems to be a very fine linguist, not that I claim to be qualified enough to judge her or anything.


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## marrish

Qureshpor said:


> I don't have access to this dictionary and it would be interesting to check if this is really true. I say this after reading the relevant part of this "thesis" in which the author states that Qureshi also gives the gender of "qaum" as masculine too. This I find incredible!


I checked it with the book and it appears that the situation is a tad different. The entry for *fikr* reads:
*
فکر fik'r N.M. (dial. F.) PL. افکار afkār 1. worry ; anxiety 2. thought ; thinking 3. idea 4. imagination*

qaum is indeed marked as a masculine noun:

*قوم qaum N.M. 1. nation ; people 2. rare group ; group of persons
*(B.A. Qureshi, Kitabistan's 20th century standard dictionary, 1971)


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## Qureshpor

^ I would say the latter is a printer error.


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## marrish

I would also think so. Anyway, as we know fikr as a feminine noun is alive and kicking in Pakistan. One instance from the online Urduencyclopedia is from 

↑ ( 1991ء، قومی زبان، کراچی، فروری، 59 ) qaumii zabaan, Karachi, 1991 - twenty years after the 20th century dictionary was published.

"وہ اسکے خون میں شامل ہوکر اسکے شعور کی بصیرت، اس کی فکر اور اسکے احساس میں رچ بس جاتا ہے۔"
_wuh uske xuun meN shaamil ho kar uske shu3uur kii basiirat, us *kii fikr* aur us ke aHsaas meN rach bas jaataa hae

***
Dib, I found the article interesting, I'm familiar with a couple of her papers and I recognize what her intentions were. Nevertheless, what is not convincing is her making an argument with as leads badly quoted lexical entries: 1. Platts doesn't have both f. and m. for qaum - contrary to her assertion and 2. Qureshi doesn't only list m. for fikr... This thread is only about fikr and I am only criticizing this relevant part._


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## mundiya

marrish said:


> Surprisingly, we use fikr in Punjabi (and subsequently in Urdu) as a feminine noun.



I assume you meant the opposite: that "fikr" (fikar) entered Punjabi through Urdu.


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## marrish

I meant, given that the suggested and purported gender drift could have started under influence of local Pakistani languages, Punjabi being the most widely spoken, I pointed out that in Punjabi it's feminine as it is also (in the second place as far as the emphasis of my statement was concerned) in Urdu. Incidentally this fragment from Khwaja Ghulam Fareed (1845–1901) treats fikar as masculine 

میڈا ذکر وی تُوں، میڈا فکر وی تُوں
میڈا ذوق وی تُوں وجدان وی تُوں

_me(N)Daa zikar vii tuuN meDaa fikar vii tuuN
meDaa zauq vii tuuN wajdaan vii tuuN
_​


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