# Монреаль in Russian / Монреал in Bulgarian



## - RG -

Привет!

In *Russian*, does it make any difference if one drops the soft-sign (ь) at the end of this word?

Монреал instead of Монреаль

Thanks!


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## Sobakus

I think I heared it pronounced as Монреал, but the norm is to pronounce it the right way not to mention that if you drop the letter in writing, it will of course be a mistake.


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## morzh

In Russian it is "МонреалЬ".


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## - RG -

Let me pose the question this way - does a native Russian speaker perceive any difference between Монреал and Монреаль? If yes, what do they hear with each of these two spellings?

(I don't want to over-load this post, but then one can also ask why is it Квебек and not Квебекь.)

Thanks, Sobakus & morzh.


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## cyanista

You might want to read up a bit on palatalization, RG. 

Palatalized consonants are on the whole clearly distinguished from non-palatalized ones by native Russian speakers. There are numerous cases where the pronunciation of two words differs only in this single characteristic (мол - моль, злит - злить, галька - Галка). 

Your question is akin to asking English native speakers if they can spot any difference between "bid"  and "bead".


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## - RG -

I guess best would be to catch hold of a Russian buddy and have them say the following pairs. That way I will "hear" which sounds are produced in the presence/absence of ь.

Монреал × Монреаль
Квебек × Квебекь

But thank you all for your replies.


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## PatrickK1

Do you know the Russian letters У and Ю? Ю is a softened version of У, and you could rewrite the pair as У and ЙУ. The Й-sound softens the vowel, and that's basically the same sound you want to produce when a letter is followed by a soft-sign.

Take "мать" as an example. Think of it like мат+й, in that you only want to tack that softening sound (but not an actual vowel) onto the end of the letter т.

In case it helps you understand, I'll explain it using transliterated English letters. Мать would be written mat', and the pronunciation would be as though you were trying to say "matye", but stopped short and didn't pronounce that final -e.


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## - RG -

Thanks, PatrickK1. It has actually begun to make sense to me.

So, is it correct to say that Russian speakers add a very, very, very slight "y" (as in «yes») sound at the end of the sound L, in order to pronounce the city name as below?

MON-RÉ-AH-LY

In other words, does the Russian name of this city bear a "y" sound at the end?


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## Sobakus

The soft sign changes the quality of the preceeding consonant, it doesn't represent any sound(though it did). In this example Л is pronounced close to the English L, and ЛЬ - close to the French L.


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## - RG -

Sobakus, thanks much indeed. This makes it even clearer, now that you're presenting this analogy (English versus French). I do perceive the sound that the English "L" (close to the Russian л) makes different from the sound of the French "L" (close to the Russian ль).


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## PatrickK1

- RG - said:


> Thanks, PatrickK1. It has actually begun to make sense to me.
> 
> So, is it correct to say that Russian speakers add a very, very, very slight "y" (as in «yes») sound at the end of the sound L, in order to pronounce the city name as below?
> 
> MON-RÉ-AH-LY
> 
> In other words, does the Russian name of this city bear a "y" sound at the end?



You don't want a full-fledged й [y] sound, but just the softening effect that comes with it. 

Another trick is to widen your mouth as though you're smiling when you want to produce a softened consonant. It's not necessary, but it does seem to automatically move your tongue into the right position and it can be helpful when you're getting started.

By the way, I just remembered: You should know that although different Slavic languages may use the Cyrillic alphabet to varying degrees, the pronunciation isn't always the same and the languages themselves are quite distinct regardless.I know that the Bulgarian ъ is pronounced like the Russian ы, for instance. Not to mention, Montreal is a foreign word, so naturally, transliterations to other languages will vary.


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## Orlin

Bulgarian uses transliteration Монреал because:
1. Soft (palatalized) consonants may not stand at the end of Bulgarian words unlike Russian so one can't put ь at the end of a Bulgarian word.
2. French l is semi-palatalized (something in the middle between Russian л and ль) and that's why both л and ль are (equally good) approximations and Russian traditionally uses ль while Bulgarian prefers л even in positions in which soft consonants are permitted.


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## morzh

In short - yes. Russian STRONGLY distinguishes between soft and hard "l", as well as other sounds.

In Proper nouns of foreign origin there allowed to be some differences, however there are traditionally stable Proper Nouns, that have been used for generations, and changing those, even to reconcile their pronunciation with the language they came from, may be considered "wrong" or "pretentious" (one trying to show off with his/her knowledge of the language).

Then again - this is "MonTreal" (with well-heard "t") in English, and in French the "L" is indeed soft. Russians used the French version, so tehre is no reason for anyone to "harden" the "L".

So if someone native to Russia said "Монреал" in Russian, he'd be looked at as a show-off (well, look at him - he is speaking English).

For thе same reason we say "Дублин" and not "Даблин" though even Irish folks in Dublin (very few speak Gaelic in there) will make it "Даблин" not "Дублин".
-----------------
Last on softening: English speakers tend to "underplay" importance of it.
A well known fact - in regional dialects of US English, especially compared to UK English, you will hear "news" as "nuz" vs "n-juz", "tune" as "tjun" vs "tun", etc.

Russian writing/reading system does not allow for so much leeway in varying pronunciation, and "soft vs hard" is a very strong rule.


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## - RG -

This is an awesome thread. Thanks, everyone, for your inputs.


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## Natalisha

- RG - said:


> Привет!
> 
> In *Russian*, does it make any difference if one drops the soft-sign (ь) at the end of this word?
> 
> Монреал instead of Монреаль
> 
> Thanks!


We call the city _Монреаль_, but when we name the football team we use both _Монреал_ and _Монреаль_ interchangeably.


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## Ben Jamin

morzh said:


> For thе same reason we say "Дублин" and not "Даблин" though even Irish folks in Dublin (very few speak Gaelic in there) will make it "Даблин" not "Дублин".


 Dublin in Gaelic is _*Baile Atha Cliath* _(believe it or not), not _*Dooblin*._


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## Linnets

Ben Jamin said:


> Dublin in Gaelic is _*Baile Atha Cliath* _(believe it or not), not _*Dooblin*._


He was saying that English speakers say [ˈdʌblɪn] and that Дублин in Russian has however a long tradition. Anyway the more typical pronunciation of Dubliners is something like [ˈdobələn]; also _Dublin_ is an Irish name coming from _dubh linn_ ("black pool") even if now the city is officially called _Baile Átha Cliath_ ("town of the hurdled ford).


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