# soi-disant / soit-disant [sic]



## agrouba

Salut,

Est ce que c'est juste que:

( soit disant = as if )?

*Note des modérateurs : *nous avons fusionné plusieurs discussions pour créer ce fil.


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## DearPrudence

Actually I think it should be* "soi-disant"* which is usually translated by *"so called"* which would .... work or not in the context you provided


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## Outsider

"So-called" ou "self-styled" ?


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## pyan

"Would be".  In this sense: "I am a would-be poet."


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## Cybèle

And with an adjective?

_His (soit-disant) injured arm _(meaning the injury is fake)... How do I translate "soit-disant" in this case?


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## IParleFrench

Cybèle:

It's could still be "so-called" in this context... "supposedly" would work, too.


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## Cybèle

Okay, thanks!
I had written "so-called" but I wasn't sure it worked.


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## linguist786

Cybèle said:


> And with an adjective?
> 
> _His (soit-disant) injured arm _(meaning the injury is fake)... How do I translate "soit-disant" in this case?


Well in writing, I would just put:

His "injured" arm.

The inverted commas imply that it's sarcastic and shows that it's not really injured, he's just faking it.

In speaking, I would maybe raise my two fingers and stress _injured_


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## Cath.S.

Cybèle said:


> And with an adjective?
> 
> _His (soit-disant) injured arm _(meaning the injury is fake)... How do I translate "soit-disant" in this case?


Bonjour tous, je voudrais attirer votre attention sur deux points.

Tout d'abord, il faut écrire _*soi*_-disant, en effet il ne s'agit pas du verbe _être_ au subjonctif, mais du pronom personnel.

Ensuite, en général, (sauf dans la langue populaire), on considère que _soi-disant_ ne peut se rapporter qu'à une personne, parce que seul un être humain peut se prétendre quoi que ce soit ; cette personne, de surcroît, doit _elle-même_ affirmer être ce qu'elle est, et non être déclarée telle par d'autres :

_elle est allée voir ce soi-disant guérisseur_ (c'est-à-dire un homme qui se dit_ lui-même_ guérisseur),
she went to see that so-called healer.
en revanche :
elle est allée voir ce prétendu voleur (c'est-à-dire un homme que d'autres accusent d'être un voleur)
she went to see that so-called thief.

L'emploi de soi-disant est donc plus restrictif que celui de _so-called_ qui pourrait être employé dans les deux exemples que je cite ci-dessus - je pense, dites-moi si je me trompe.


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## carolineR

Cybèle said:


> And with an adjective?
> _His (soit-disant) injured arm _(meaning the injury is fake)... How do I translate "soit-disant" in this case?


Soit dit en passant , _son bras soi-disant blessé_ n'est pas considéré comme acceptable en français car "soi-disant", c'est littéralement "qui dit de soi", or les bras ne parlent pas, jusqu'à nouvel ordre.


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## Cybèle

> In speaking, I would maybe raise my two fingers and stress _injured_


 
lol


The commas would do nicely in a letter to a friend of something of that kind, but in a fiction, I'm not sure it's the same, since it's supposed to be written in a more literary style. Well, I'll have that story checked by a English native speaker before posting it, anyway. I'm just trying to spare her too much work by making as many corrections as I can by myself (well, with your help).

Thanks for you reply!


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## Cybèle

Bon, alors on n'a qu'à mettre "prétendument" à la place. Mais ça fait un peu pompeux !


[Edit]

Oh, et puis le dictionnaire en ligne _Le trésor de la langue française informatisé_ (pas le droit de mettre le lien, zut !) dit ceci:



> Au départ, _soi-disant_ ne pouvait se dire que des êtres doués de la parole et ne pouvait s'appliquer qu'à une qualité qu'ils s'attribuaient eux-mêmes: _De soi-disant docteurs. Une soi-disant marquise. Les soi-disant héritiers_. Si l'on s'en tient à ce sens premier, il est absurde d'appliquer _soi-disant_ à des choses ou à des défauts: _Une soi-disant expérience. Une soi-disant escroquerie_. À cela on peut opposer l'évolution sémantique qui, pour bien des mots, les éloigne de leur sens premier (...) L'Académie elle-même a défini _Empirique_: _Qui s'appuie sur une soi-disant expérience_`` (HANSE _Nouv._ 1983, pp. 873-874).


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## FrançoisXV

Bonsoir à tous (toutes),
Bien que mes souvenirs de grammaire datent un petit peu, Le bras soi-disant cassé est correct, non ? (on n'est pas au sens I, adjectif invariable, mais au sens II du TLF, adverbe modifiant un adjectif)
http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/soi-disant


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## Cath.S.

FrançoisXV said:


> Bonsoir à tous (toutes),
> Bien que mes souvenirs de grammaire datent un petit peu, Le bras soi-disant cassé est correct, non ? (on n'est pas au sens I, adjectif invariable, mais au sens II du TLF, adverbe modifiant un adjectif)
> http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/soi-disant


Il me déplaît de te contredire, François, mais tous les exemples donnés par le TLF (au sens II, oui oui ) corroborent mes dires et ceux de Caroline. À chaque fois, soi-disant se rapporte au sujet, qui est toujours soit un substantif désignant une ou des personnes :

_Ces sectes soi-disant universelles_
_ces sectes qui se disent universelles_

_Je me rappelle qu'on fusillait presque tous les matins, derrière le bastion saint-Jean, deux ou trois maraudeurs, soi-disant pour le bon exemple_ 
on disait que c'était pour le bon exemple

_Tout cela parce que, soi-disant, il aurait vu passer deux ombres _
_Il disait avoir vu passer deux ombres_

soit un substantif désignant des personnes par métonymie :
_La langue soi-disant savante de ces prétendus adeptes_ 

Une langue peut se dire quelque chose. Pas un bras.


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## Cybèle

Ah, merci d'avoir mis le lien !   Je n'avais pas le droit parce qu'on ne peut qu'à partir de 30 messages.


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## jbonner01

Bonjour tout le monde, 

Il y une phrase dans ma petit bouquin, Les petitis enfants du siecle que je comprend pas, pouvez vous m'aider?

<<Soi-disant pour rassurer la plus nerveuse.>>  

Soi-disant, c'est a dire quoi? Peut-être, 

<< the most nervous one had to reassure herself >> ou << she reassured the most nervous one herself?>> 

Pour contexte, Deux femmes se sont battues récemment, et un autre ont arrivé pour les calmer. 

Merci bien en avance, vous ne m'avez jamais déçu


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## pieanne

Under the pretence of reassuring...


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## alexa99

Hi,

I'd say

"Allegedly to reassure the most nervous one"


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## Franglais1969

alexa99 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'd say
> 
> "Allegedly to reassure the most nervous one"



Sorry, but that doesn't sound natural English to me. Pieanne's suggestion was excellent, in my humble opinion.


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## alexa99

Franglais1969 said:


> Sorry, but that doesn't sound natural English to me. Pieanne's suggestion was excellent, in my humble opinion.


 

Can anything be done with "Allegedly" that seems to fit the context as well  ?


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## Alipeeps

alexa99 said:


> Can anything be done with "Allegedly" that seems to fit the context as well ?


 
Allegedly does fit the context in terms of meaning, it just doesn't sound as natural to construct the sentence that way.


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## lisbeth.feldspar

Alipeeps said:


> Allegedly does fit the context in terms of meaning, it just doesn't sound as natural to construct the sentence that way.



We use "soi-disant" in English, too, to mean "so-called."  Eg. "The soi-disant 'healer' promised to cure her in two days."  (Sorry it's a rather goofy sentence -- I just made it up.)  It's always used to mean someone who calls him/herself something, but usually with a connotation of doubt or even denigration on the part of the person using "soi-disant."  But the meaning in French is obviously different?  Which I think is particularly interesting since the actual literal meaning would be "calling himself," yes?  So in English we use it quite narrowly and literally, while in French it can be more figural?

I think "allegedly" could work fine, here, BTW, but "supposedly" is a bit more natural.  In my humble opinion, the problem is that in the original it's not a complete sentence, therefore it's hard to get that "allegedly" or "supposedly" in there in a natural way.  One could say something like "She came over to them, allegedly/supposedly to reassure the most nervous one," which would sound fine.

lisbeth


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## jbonner01

Merci bien tout le monde, vous m'avez aidé beaucoup! Qui ont besoin d'un professeur quand on a wf.com?


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## wildan1

I also vote for s_upposedly_ in this context, where _soi-disant_ is used as an adverb and not an adjective ("so-called")


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## timpeac

I suggest "ostensibly". This has the meaning of "apparently" but contains the implication you suspect it is a sham, or at least that they are making a great effort to appear to be doing whatever it is.


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## lisbeth.feldspar

timpeac said:


> I suggest "ostensibly". This has the meaning of "apparently" but contains the implication you suspect it is a sham, or at least that they are making a great effort to appear to be doing whatever it is.



"Ostensibly" is good, too; I agree.  The register is a bit more elevated, though -- and if I remember correctly this is a children's book???



jbonner01 said:


> Merci bien tout le monde, vous m'avez aidé beaucoup! Qui ont besoin d'un professeur quand on a wf.com?



Oh, but some of us _are_ teachers!  I'm just here on a busman's holiday. 

lisbeth


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## timpeac

lisbeth.feldspar said:


> "Ostensibly" is good, too; I agree. The register is a bit more elevated, though -- and if I remember correctly this is a children's book???


No - I don't think so - it's about some children rather than a book for them.


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## Montaigne

"Soi-disant" is often used for "prétendu".
A "soi-disant expert" is someone who pretends to be an expert (and is not);
A "prétendu expert" is someone who is said to be an expert ( and may be one but unskillful).


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## timpeac

Montaigne said:


> "Soi-disant" is often used for "prétendu".
> A "soi-disant expert" is someone who pretends to be an expert (and is not);
> A "prétendu expert" is someone who is said to be an expert ( and may be one but unskillful).


But surely it's an adverb in the phrase in question?


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## lisbeth.feldspar

timpeac said:


> But surely it's an adverb in the phrase in question?



Yes, I think it must be.  This is what I was trying (not very clearly) to ruminate about above: that in French, apparently, "soi-disant" can be either an adjective or an adverb, while in English it is only an adjective, as far as I know.

lisbeth


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## Colorado_Suburbs

*Soi-disant does not mean "so-called" or "supposedly"* because this misses the exact point of the French phrase.  Soi-disant means what someone calls himself.  That would be why soi-disant must refer to a person, or perhaps to something like a language which can act as an agent - even if only in a methaphorical way.  One of the 30 previous posts makes this point, but it's lost in the clutter.

English has no single word or two-word English phrase that is as precise as soi-disant.  You must use three words: *
"they call themselves qqch.* Or:  *She calls herself *_*qqch.*

_"So-called" and "supposedly" fail as accurate translations because they do not explain **who** is giving the label or doing the supposing.  In English, those two phrases imply it's a third party slapping on a label.  Usually the third party is the general public.

Even "self-styled" is not accurate because that English phrase implies "an original, a one-of-a-kind" (positive to neutral usage) or an "imposter" (perjorative).  
The precision of soi-disant, and the lack of a short, snappy equivalent in English, is an example of why it's good to be bi-lingual.


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## bh7

> English has no single word or two-word English phrase that is as precise as soi-disant.



What about "self-described"?  It seems to me that "she went to see that self-described healer" is a fitting translation of  " _elle est allée voir ce soi-disant guérisseur ".
_


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## tilt

Même si c'est un usage incorrect, en pratique, beaucoup de gens confondent _soi-disant _et _prétendu(ment)_, jusqu'à certains dictionnaires comme le Mediadico:


> *soi-disant*
> (adjectif invariable)
> Qui se prétend tel, qu'on prétend tel:
> les soi-disant amis.
> [adv.] Prétendument: il a soi-disant travaillé seul.


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## Cath.S.

Le Wiktionnaire propose _self-proclaimed_. 
Mais, puisque comme le souligne Tilt la confusion entre _soi-disant_ et _prétendu_ est très fréquente, il me semble que dans beaucoup de contextes on va pouvoir traduire par _so-called_.


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## tilt

Est-ce que _self-said _ne se dit pas, en anglais ?


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## Cath.S.

tilt said:


> Est-ce que _self-said _ne se dit pas, en anglais ?


Tu préférerais sans doute que des anglophones te répondent, tant pis !
Je ne pense pas que ce mot existe.

J'en profite pour ajouter qu'en termes d'usage, _so-called _revient aussi fréquemment en anglais, et dans les mêmes situations, que _soi-disant_ en français. Il se peut qu'il y ait des exemples où ce ne serait pas une traduction appropriée, je demande à les voir.


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## bh7

No, not "self-said" but "self-proclaimed" or "self-described".
And, further to tilt's and egueule's observations, the Collins-Robert dictionary also doesn't distinguish between "calling o.s." and "called by others":
*soi-disant* [swadizS]
1 adjectif invariable 
*so-called*
un soi-disant poète/professeur :    a so-called ou  would-be poet/teacher


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## wildan1

tilt said:


> Est-ce que _self-said _ne se dit pas, en anglais ?


 
Non, _self-said_ n'existe pas et en plus n'a aucun sens à mon oreille d'anglophone.

Par contre, on dit bien _supposed _(prononcé dans ce contexte seulement 
*\sə-ˈpō-zəd\*) pour _soi-disant_ dans le sens de _prétendu:_

This suppos-ed poet; His suppos-ed injury (je mets des traits d'union pour montrer la prononciation; mais normalement cela ne s'écrirait pas ainsi)


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## LARSAY

en termes légaux, on emploie le mot _alleged_


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## tilt

bh7 said:


> No, not "self-said" but "self-proclaimed" or "self-described".
> And, further to tilt's and egueule's observations, the Collins-Robert dictionary also doesn't distinguish between "calling o.s." and "called by others":
> *soi-disant*[swadizS]
> 1 adjectif invariable
> *so-called*
> un soi-disant poète/professeur :    a so-called ou  would-be poet/teacher


_Would-be _avait été proposé par Pyan, au début du fil.
Dans certains cas, c'est effectivement une meilleure traduction que _so-called_.


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## Colorado_Suburbs

bh7 said:


> What about "self-described"?  It seems to me that "she went to see that self-described healer" is a fitting translation of  " _elle est allée voir ce soi-disant guérisseur ".
> _



*Self-described is a perfect translation.*  I had forgotten that this phrase is commonly used in British newspapers.  I've never heard self-described used in conversation here in the U.S., but we would understand it instantly.

*Self-proclaimed* works, but it always carries a negative connotation, and I do not believe soi-disant is always pejorative.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.

*Would-be* is an inexact fit, I think, because (1) It implies that the person has an intention, and (2) that this intention is, or will be, a failure.   However, (1) insincere people can claim something about themselves without having any intention of actually doing anything.  
(2) Some of these intentions may not fail, and I believe that soi-disant is not so pessimistic.

*Supposed* and *alleged* are inexact for the same reason that *so-called *is not perfect.  All three phrases are silent about **who** is doing the supposing, alleging, or labeling.


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## LARSAY

_*alleged* are inexact _

Ah bon, I must have translated legal documents the wrong way for 30 years!!!!!!!


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## tilt

Colorado_Suburbs said:


> *Would-be* is an inexact fit, I think, because (1) It implies that the person has an intention, and (2) that this intention is, or will be, a failure.   However, (1) insincere people can claim something about themselves without having any intention of actually doing anything.
> (2) Some of these intentions may not fail, and I believe that soi-disant is not so pessimistic.
> 
> *Supposed* and *alleged* are inexact for the same reason that *so-called *is not perfect.  All three phrases are silent about **who** is doing the supposing, alleging, or labeling.


I keep thinking that _would-be _would translate in _soi-disant_, sometimes.
The same for supposed and alleged.

None of them are an exact translation (privided that a translation can be such), but each one would fit in specific cases, yet.
Context makes everything, as always!


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## wildan1

tilt said:


> I keep thinking that _would-be _would translate in _soi-disant_, sometimes.


 
I think Colorado Suburbs's point is that_ would-be_ and _alleged_ both lack the _"soi-"_ of _soi-disant_

It is not clear who is doing the alleging. It could be the alleged person or someone else.

_The would-be/alleged thief was jailed by the police._ 

The police are probably calling him a thief, not the jailed person himself. To be absolutely certain, you would have to know the context--did he turn himself in? Did he deny to the police that he was a thief? Do the police have proof positive that he stole something? We don't know...


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## tilt

wildan1 said:


> I think Colorado Suburbs's point is that_ would-be_ and _alleged_ both lack the _"soi-"_ of _soi-disant_
> 
> It is not clear who is doing the alleging. It could be the alleged person or someone else.


I totally agree, but as I said earlier, this _self-_ dimension also lacks in French too, despite the etymology of _soi-disant_.


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## polaire

agrouba said:


> Salut,
> 
> Est ce que c'est juste que:
> 
> ( soit disant = as if )?



In American English, "soi-disant" is translated as "so-called."  It is understood that the person is referring to himself or herself and that s/he probably has an unrealistic, inflated, or deluded idea of himself or herself.

Occasionally, one sees "self-styled" as an equivalent, but "so-called" is much more common.  But most common of all is to use the French phrase, and, as noted, it is invariably used with a note of sarcasm.


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## polaire

tilt said:


> I totally agree, but as I said earlier, this _self-_ dimension also lacks in French too, despite the etymology of _soi-disant_.



You're right.  In addition, "alleged" has a distinctly legal tone.  It can be used jokingly for someone who's a bit of a poseur, but it's not usually used as an equivalent for "soi-disant."


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## polaire

Colorado_Suburbs said:


> *Self-described is a perfect translation.*  I had forgotten that this phrase is commonly used in British newspapers.  I've never heard self-described used in conversation here in the U.S., but we would understand it instantly.
> 
> *Self-proclaimed* works, but it always carries a negative connotation, and I do not believe soi-disant is always pejorative.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> *Would-be* is an inexact fit, I think, because (1) It implies that the person has an intention, and (2) that this intention is, or will be, a failure.   However, (1) insincere people can claim something about themselves without having any intention of actually doing anything.
> (2) Some of these intentions may not fail, and I believe that soi-disant is not so pessimistic.
> 
> *Supposed* and *alleged* are inexact for the same reason that *so-called *is not perfect.  All three phrases are silent about **who** is doing the supposing, alleging, or labeling.




In American English, "self-described" can be a neutral term.

_The self-described philanthropist._ _The self-described recovering alcoholic._

"Soi-disant" by contrast, is not neutral, it's invariably critical.

"Would-be" could be translated by "manqué":  the implication is that the person has not realized her or his ambitions.  _A writer manqué.  _For a while, "wannabe" [want to be] was used as an equivalent for "would-be."  I think it's on its way out.  _Manqué _may be getting dated, too.

"Aspiring" is the positive equivalent for "would-be."  _Joe is an aspiring writer. _[He hopes to be a writer and has some chance of success.]


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## polaire

egueule said:


> Le Wiktionnaire propose _self-proclaimed_.
> Mais, puisque comme le souligne Tilt la confusion entre _soi-disant_ et _prétendu_ est très fréquente, il me semble que dans beaucoup de contextes on va pouvoir traduire par _so-called_.



_Self-proclaimed_ is possible, but _so-called_ is much more common.  The use of the word "proclaimed" introduces some doubt about the validity of the assessment by the person.

By the way, _soi-disant_ is not all that common a phrase.  It's usually used by well-educated people who are in a snobbish and sarcastic mood.


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## Cath.S.

polaire said:


> In American English, "self-described" can be a neutral term.
> 
> _The self-described philanthropist._ _The self-described recovering alcoholic._
> _Self-described_ would not match _soi-disant. Qui se décrit (lui-même) / qui se définit / qui se présente comme..._
> 
> "Soi-disant" by contrast, is not neutral, it's invariably critical. I would translate it to... _prétendu_, since you said in your next post the phrase is only used by a certain type of people. Prétendu, in French tends to be used by so-called educated people.
> 
> "Would-be" could be translated by "manqué": the implication is that the person has not realized her or his ambitions. _A writer manqué. _For a while, "wannabe" [want to be] was used as an equivalent for "would-be." I think it's on its way out. _Manqué _may be getting dated, too. In French, _I would say_ _raté._
> 
> "Aspiring" is the positive equivalent for "would-be." _Joe is an aspiring writer. _[He hopes to be a writer and has some chance of success.]
> No _soi-disant_ in French here either. _En herbe_ could fit in some contexts. _Joe est un écrivain en herbe._


 


			
				Colorado Suburbs said:
			
		

> I do not believe soi-disant is always pejorative. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


In my experience, _soi-disant_ always expresses disbelief and sometimes scorn.
In the speaker's opinion, _une soi-disant démocratie_ is a tyranny in disguise, _une soi-disant top-modèle_ is probably a hooker,_ le soi-disant inventeur d'un carburant miracle_ is a clever con artist, _etc._


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