# He has a hidden agenda



## kan3malato

ciao

Could anyone(please) try to explain to me what does it means?Above all, what she means for "agenda".
An English friend of mine is trying to do it but I can't keep up with her.
If someone could do it in Italian it Would be better.
thanks


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## giovannino

Vuol dire che le motivazioni del suo comportamento non sono quelle che vuol far credere. Un po' come "avere secondi fini" in italiano.


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## kan3malato

giovannino said:


> Vuol dire che le motivazioni del suo comportamento non sono quelle che vuol far credere. Un po' come "avere secondi fini" in italiano.


Grazie Giovannino.
Sembra tornare quello che dici...


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## Roy Perrott

Cari madrelingua,

Anch'io stavo cercando una traduzione per questa frase ma piuttosto dall' inglese all' italiano.  Non ho mai sentito la frase "avere secondi fini".  Tutti voi siete in accordo che questa traduzione e' la traduzione giusta?  In passato ho sentito la frase "avere un altro motivo" che va nella stessa direzione.

Un esempio dell'uso inglese: "I am really worried about that guy's motives.  He says that he is interested in being my friend but actually I think that he has a *hidden agenda*."


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## Odysseus54

"Avere secondi fini" e' una frase molto usata, e va bene con il tuo esempio.

Se vuoi essere piu' 'letterario', puoi anche usare " avere fini reconditi ".


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## niccat

Avevo cercato anche io questo termine!
bene così! grazie anche da parte mia..


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## Roy Perrott

Grazie mille.  Molto gentile.


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## effeundici

Io sapevo che _secondi fini = ulterior reasons_


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## coeurdenids

Anche puo dire "altre cose in mente"?


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## VolaVer

effeundici said:


> Io sapevo che _secondi fini = ulterior reasons_


Può essere anche tradotto così, e allora mettici pure "ulterior motives", ma "hidden agenda" è un'espressione più usata e calza a pennello, no?


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## Roy Perrott

Yes, that's right.  We say either "he had a hidden agenda" or "he had an ulterior motive".  We don't say "ulterior reasons".


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## effeundici

Roy Perrott said:


> Yes, that's right. We say either "he had a hidden agenda" or "he had an ulterior motive". We don't say "ulterior reasons".


 
Mmmh, I've just googled _ulteriors reasons _and it seems widely used exactly with the meaning we are discussing.


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## Roy Perrott

Never heard of it here in UK.  Sorry.  Maybe AE.


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## AngelEyes

effeundici said:


> Mmmh, I've just googled _ulteriors reasons _and it seems widely used exactly with the meaning we are discussing.


 
I've certainly heard and understand _ulterior reasons_, but the other two - _ulterior motives, hidden agenda_ - are regularly used set terms. 

And Google lists twice as many hits for _ulterior motives_.

kan3malato:
From a purely American perspective, think of it this way. All these terms are a warning: you don't have all the facts, and whatever's going on is not being totally revealed to you.

Beware. 

*AngelEyes*


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## You little ripper!

"Ulterior reasons" makes perfect sense to me! As long as it fits the basic rules of grammar and is understandable, you can put any words together; it doesn't have to be a set phrase.


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## Einstein

_Ulterior reasons_ is certainly comprehensible, but I agree with Roy Perrott that in BE it's not the normal expression and _ulterior motives_ is the usual set phrase (like Roy I had never heard _ulterior reasons_).

But to go back to _hidden agenda_, although the meaning is similar I wouldn't necessarily use them in the same context. To me _hidden agenda_ means something more serious and I'd expect to see it in a political context, or in any case to read it in the newspapers. Also _ulterior motive_ could be used in that context, but when talking about friends and neighbours _hidden agenda_ wouldn't sound natural to me.


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## AngelEyes

Einstein,

You make a very strong point, and I agree with what you said.

In everyday usage, regular people would just say _ulterior motives_.

Using the word _agenda_ makes it seem more planned out in a sophisticated, investigative way.

*AngelEyes*


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## VolaVer

Yours actually is a good point, Einstein.


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## rrose17

I also agree with Einstein that a hidden agenda implies something long term, more machiavellian while ulterior motives (sorry never heard ulterior reasons either) is just someone being manipulative.


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## coeurdenids

Whenever I hear "he/she has a hidden agenda" I think of someone who secretly lusts after power while pretending to be cooperative and even diminutive.


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## You little ripper!

Einstein said:


> _Ulterior reasons_ is certainly comprehensible, but I agree with Roy Perrott that in BE it's not the normal expression and _ulterior motives_ is the usual set phrase (like Roy I had never heard _ulterior reasons_).


Einstein, does it matter that it's not a "normal expression" and that "ulterior motives" is the usual set phrase? We're not sheep! If it makes sense, why not use it? It's all very well to make non-natives aware of how words and phrases are generally used in English, but I wouldn't want to stifle anyone's creativity. In fact, some of the most beautiful English I've ever heard and read has been a non-native's, probably because they weren't limited by what they were brought up hearing all their life, something most natives tend to do.  



> But to go back to _hidden agenda_, although the meaning is similar I wouldn't necessarily use them in the same context. To me _hidden agenda_ means something more serious and I'd expect to see it in a political context, or in any case to read it in the newspapers. Also _ulterior motive_ could be used in that context, but when talking about friends and neighbours _hidden agenda_ wouldn't sound natural to me.


I agree that 'hidden agenda' is mainly heard in a political context and in newspapers, but not always. All the dictionaries I checked define it as an _ulterior motive_ or _a plan, motive, or objective underlying somebody's actions that is kept secret from others, _but none of them make any reference to it being used more in a particular context, which is what they generally do if that is the case.

Oxford Concise

Encarta

Merriam Webster

Dictionary.com

Here are a few examples I found in Google of its use in everday language:

_What should you do if your girlfriend is good friends with her ex but you suspect he has a hidden agenda
_ 
_When therapists suspect a person has a hidden agenda they may view the client or family member as indirect or manipulative_*.
 
*_Every person has a hidden agenda. This agenda often governs one's intentions and behaviour._

_If a woman asks you if you're seeing others, do you think she has a hidden agenda?_

_A person has a hidden agenda when she won’t tell you about a motivation she consciously holds. For example, if you have a second home at the beach, someone might casually ask,................
_ 
_I believe that there are some women (I didn't say all) who think that if a man is nice, he has a hidden agenda. _


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## sul serio

Charles Costante said:


> "Ulterior reasons" makes perfect sense to me! As long as it fits the basic rules of grammar and is understandable, you can put any words together; it doesn't have to be a set phrase.


It may make perfect sense, but if you put two words together at random and ignore idioms, you risk having your reader know you're not English. Ulterior motives and hidden agendas. NOT ulterior reasons, because this suggests a different meaning of 'ulterior', meaning reasons set at a point beyond the present situation. It's subtle and hard to explain, but if an English person tells you it's ulterior motives, and not ulterior reasons, believe it!


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## You little ripper!

sul serio said:


> It may make perfect sense, but if you put two words together at random and ignore idioms, you risk having your reader know you're not English. Ulterior motives and hidden agendas. NOT ulterior reasons, because this suggests a different meaning of 'ulterior', meaning reasons set at a point beyond the present situation. It's subtle and hard to explain, but if an English person tells you it's ulterior motives, and not ulterior reasons, believe it!


Sul serio, I wasn't suggesting you put "two words together *at random* and ignore idioms" or set phrases; the words need to make sense within the context they are being used. I agree there can be a subtle difference between 'ulterior motives' and 'ulterior reasons', but in a lot of cases they can be used interchangeably. I have often put words together to substitute an idiom/set phrase in a conversation/writing simply to avoid repetition and haven't yet been mistaken for a foreigner (well, maybe sometimes, because of the accent ). My point was that we shouldn't stifle creativity in language simply because there is a set phrase/idiom that can be used in its stead.


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## sul serio

I see your point exactly, but any proofreader of 'ulterior reasons' would think like quicksilver that this has got to have been written by a foreigner, otherwise he would have put either "ulterior motives", or "other reasons". Ulterior reasons just isn't fluent English, even though no one reading it would chastise you for it, I'm sure. I have been racking my brains to find out why, and came up with this: a reason is conceptually static; a motive denotes something conceptually remote or yet to be implemented, BASED on reasons. Therefore the word 'ulterior', which suggests the future and/or conceptual remoteness, belongs with 'motives' rather than 'reasons'.
Phew! Mannaggia o'! (Thank you for making my brain work for a change!)



Charles Costante said:


> Sul serio, I wasn't suggesting you put "two words together *at random* and ignore idioms" or set phrases; the words need to make sense within the context they are being used. I agree there can be a subtle difference between 'ulterior motives' and 'ulterior reasons', but in a lot of cases they can be used interchangeably. I have often put words together to substitute an idiom/set phrase in a conversation/writing simply to avoid repetition and haven't yet been mistaken for a foreigner (well, maybe sometimes, because of the accent ). My point was that we shouldn't stifle creativity in language simply because there is a set phrase/idiom that can be used in its stead.


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## You little ripper!

sul serio said:


> I see your point exactly, but any proofreader of 'ulterior reasons' would think like quicksilver that this has got to have been written by a foreigner, otherwise he would have put either "ulterior motives", or "other reasons". Ulterior reasons just isn't fluent English, even though no one reading it would chastise you for it, I'm sure. I have been racking my brains to find out why, and came up with this: a reason is conceptually static; a motive denotes something conceptually remote or yet to be implemented, BASED on reasons. Therefore the word 'ulterior', which suggests the future and/or conceptual remoteness, belongs with 'motives' rather than 'reasons'.


'Ulterior' does have the meaning of _future_, but it can simply mean _intentionally kept concealed_. We'll have agree to disagree on this one.


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## sul serio

Yes, that's what I meant by _'conceptually remote'_. But it only enjoys the further (or rather 'ulterior' - oops !!) meaning of _intentionally keeping concealed_, when accompanied with motives! (or reasons - ok va!!) 



Charles Costante said:


> 'Ulterior' does have the meaning of _future_, but it can simply mean _intentionally kept concealed_. We'll have agree to disagree on this one.


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## Einstein

I'll add here that I first heard the word "ulterior" in the expression "ulterior motive" and have rarely heard it anywhere else. I emphasise that this is my *personal experience* before the googlers get going to "prove" me wrong!

The second point is that "motive" and "reason" are not synonyms; "reason" means "motivo/ragione", while "motive" also includes the Italian "movente", in other words something rather negative. This is why the set phrase is usually "ulterior motive".


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## sul serio

Sure, there's nothing wrong with being creative when, and only when, such creativity adds something to the meaning that SHOULD be there, or it makes the phrase sound more poetic. But what I'm challenging here is not creativity, but re-inventing the wheel. Ulterior reasons not only sounds less poetic, it doesn't hit the spot either as far as meaning is concerned. The fact is that English has become an exceptionally rich language, having spent the past 2000 years being invaded by every other culture in Europe, so if an idiom or a set phrase is there, you can often as not bet your life that it's there because its meaning is very specific, and anything else that comes close (and there will be several choices) is going to bring in another nuance that maybe doesn't exist if you translate both phrases into any other European language: but in English that nuance does exist. This is what non-natives have to beware of when translating out of their mother tongues into English - especially if they want to be creative. I now see more clearly why it's not considered professional practice to translate out of one's mother tongue. It's best left to a native.


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## You little ripper!

sul serio said:


> Ulterior reasons not only sounds less poetic, it doesn't hit the spot either as far as meaning is concerned.


In some contexts I think it works perfectly, but I do agree that it's not the most poetic expression. 



> The fact is that English has become an exceptionally rich language,  having spent the past 2000 years being invaded by every other culture in  Europe, so if an idiom or a set phrase is there, you can often as not  bet your life that it's there because its meaning is very specific, and  anything else that comes close (and there will be several choices) is  going to bring in another nuance that maybe doesn't exist if you  translate both phrases into any other European language: but in English  that nuance does exist.


That is the the case with idioms, and certainly in the case of some set phrases, but in my opinion a lot of set phrases are just expressions that have been heard as we learn our language and then use simply because it's the first thing that comes to mind. All I'd like to do is encourage others to think about what they're saying and be adventurous. In fact, one of the things I enjoyed about the novel, _Memoirs of a Geisha_ was that the author didn't use the same old hackneyed expressions that most other writers tend to use, but invented his own. It was such a joy to read! (I wonder how many set phrases I used in that paragraph?!!!  )

"Bloody hell, I've twisted my ankle!"  he cries out as he stumbles down off his soap box.


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## sul serio

Interesting! To be honest I can't think where I would use ulterior, either, if not with 'motive'. And yes, a motive isn't a reason. It's the reason why you have a reason, and it embraces not only the 'reason' but also the 'intention' or 'purpose' to which the reason gives rise. This is what I meant: reasons are static, motives reach into the future - hence ulterior is a fitting adjective.


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## You little ripper!

sul serio said:


> Interesting! To be honest I can't think where I would use ulterior, either, if not with 'motive'.


 Your Dictionary.com gives 'ulterior purposes' and 'ulterior agenda' _from various sources to reflect current and historical usage _(even though they do say that it doesn't represent the opinions of the dictionary)_.  _Webster's Dictionary Encyclopedia  gives 'ulterior purpose' as an example of usage.



> And yes, a motive isn't a reason. It's the reason why you have a reason,  and it embraces not only the 'reason' but also the 'intention' or  'purpose' to which the reason gives rise. This is what I meant: reasons  are static, motives reach into the future - hence ulterior is a fitting  adjective.


 I agree that 'motive' does have an extra meaning and that they're not always interchangeable.


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## sul serio

Yes! Of course, purpose, agenda, motive, what these words all have in common is a nuance related to the future. Hence ulterior. Thanks for the chat!


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## You little ripper!

sul serio said:


> Yes! Of course, purpose, agenda, motive, what these words all have in common is a nuance related to the future. Hence ulterior.


And the Merriam-Webster Dictionary   uses 'ulterior' with 'reasons'.  It's all in the context.



> Thanks for the chat!


Same here.


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