# Partitive article?



## mtmjr

Hello.  I have a rather simple question, but cannot seem to find it anywhere online.  Does Portuguese have a partitive article?  I don't mean a concept approximating the idea, but explicitly-named partitive articles.

If no, is it like English/Spanish where there is no real partitive article, but instead only approximates:

_I eat some cake._
_Como alguna tarta._

If yes, is it like French/Italian where they must be used:

_Je mange de la gâteau._
_Mangio della torta._

Thanks to all!


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## Denis555

Hi mtmjr,

No, in Portuguese we don't have partitive articles. We express this idea by using "um pouco de":
Eu como um pouco de bolo = I eat some cake.             _or_
Eu como um pouco do bolo = I eat some of the cake.


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## Outsider

mtmjr said:


> Hello.  I have a rather simple question, but cannot seem to find it anywhere online.  Does Portuguese have a partitive article?  I don't mean a concept approximating the idea, but explicitly-named partitive articles.


No, it does not. The partitive function can be expressed with indefinite pronouns in some cases, as Dennis has exemplified, or more commonly by the absence of any word (zero morpheme):

_I eat some cake._
Como bolo.​


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## mtmjr

Obrigada a todo o mundo!


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## avok

mtmjr said:


> Hello. I have a rather simple question, but cannot seem to find it anywhere online. Does Portuguese have a partitive article? I don't mean a concept approximating the idea, but explicitly-named partitive articles.
> 
> If no, is it like English/Spanish where there is no real partitive article, but instead only approximates:
> 
> _I eat some cake._
> _Como alguna tarta._
> 
> If yes, is it like French/Italian where they must be used:
> 
> _Je mange de la gâteau._
> _Mangio della torta._
> 
> Thanks to all!


 

Are you sure Italian has partitive article like in French?


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## mtmjr

I'm really not too sure, but in my little research, I've found that Italian has a classification called _L'articolo partitivo _as seen here: http://italian.about.com/library/fare/blfare125a.htm


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## Denis555

Yes, Italian does have partitive articles. 
In Portuguese as I said we can use "*um pouco de*" for uncountable nouns or as _Outsider_ said with *no articles*.

But in the case presented in the Italian example for countable nouns we can use "*alguns/algumas*" or once again with *no articles*:
_Ho delle cravatte blu._ (I have a few blue ties.)= Eu tenho algumas gravatas azuis / Eu tenho gravatas azuis.


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## avok

But I swear I met Italians who do not understand or who find weird the use of French partitive articles "du" and "de la" as in "du café".

Yes in portuguese I always see "no article" where it should be partitive article in French. Ex:

Je bois de l'eau : Bebo agua


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## Outsider

avok said:


> But I swear I met Italians who do not understand or who find weird the use of French partitive articles "du" and "de la" as in "du café".


Dialectal variation? In any case, there is a better forum to inquire about Italian...


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## mtmjr

A small follow-up question...  What about the use of "uns" and "umas"?  Do these express "some"?  If not, then when are these used?

I want _some_ grapes.
Je veux _des_ raisins.
Voglio _delle _uve.
Quero _umas_ uvas?


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## Outsider

mtmjr said:


> A small follow-up question...  What about the use of "uns" and "umas"?  Do these express "some"?


They do translate as "some" or "a few".

I was thinking about this the other day. I don't think that English has partitive articles, either. We use "some" to give an idea of how the partitive works, but there actually isn't a one-to-one correspondence between English "some" and the French partitive _de_. It's a bit like when we use _algum_ to translate the partitive in Portuguese.

So, in short, _uns_ and _umas_ work pretty much like "some" and "a few" in English. Comparing with French, you have:

_Je veux des raisins._
Quero uvas.

_Je veux quelques raisins._
Quero umas/algumas uvas.​


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## mtmjr

Is there a native preference between the plural indefinite and algum?  I asked a similar question in the Spanish forums about "algun" vs "unos"/"unas" and the general preference was "algun".  If this is true, I wonder then when the plural indefinites _are_ preferred.


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## Outsider

Sometimes they are interchangeable, but most of the time they are used in different constructions. It's not easy to explain. It's similar to the difference between "a(n)" and "one" in English.


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## mtmjr

Alright, I think I'm as clear as I'm going to be for now.  Thank you for all your help.  I think I'll just stick to either _zero article _or _algum_ for most cases.


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## Benvindo

Denis555 said:


> Hi mtmjr,
> 
> No, in Portuguese we don't have partitive articles. We express this idea by using "um pouco de":
> Eu como um pouco de bolo = I eat some cake.             _or_
> Eu como um pouco do bolo = I eat some of the cake.



Eu tenho uma pergunta. O seguinte uso poderia ser classificado como partitivo?
"Já comeu _do_ bolo que eu fiz ontem?"
"Não, ainda não comi _desse_ bolo."
Estas frases não soariam estranhas, pelo menos por aqui. O uso da preposição de, como nestes casos, é padrão na língua portuguesa?


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## Du_sud

Benvindo said:


> Eu tenho uma pergunta. O seguinte uso poderia ser classificado como partitivo?
> "Já comeu _do_ bolo que eu fiz ontem?"
> "Não, ainda não comi _desse_ bolo."
> Estas frases não soariam estranhas, pelo menos por aqui. O uso da preposição de, como nestes casos, é padrão na língua portuguesa?


 
Olá a todos!
Ouço essa construção colocada pelo Benvindo por aqui (SP) também e sempre achei que era uma "forma partitiva" do português.
Não??

Abraços


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## Denis555

Benvindo said:


> Eu tenho uma pergunta. O seguinte uso poderia ser classificado como partitivo?
> "Já comeu _do_ bolo que eu fiz ontem?"
> "Não, ainda não comi _desse_ bolo."
> Estas frases não soariam estranhas, pelo menos por aqui. O uso da preposição de, como nestes casos, é padrão na língua portuguesa?


 
Uau! Ótima observação!
Embora não tenhamos artigos partitivos tal como em francês ou italiano, ao meu ver essa construção é sim partitiva! Eu uso _ela _frenquentemente. Eu digo até: "Já comeu do bolo?"
É partitiva pra mim pois: Já comeu (uma parte) do bolo?


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## Alandria

Como cortamos o bolo em pedaços, também podemos dizer que comemos um pedaço ou mais do bolo.

No caso das uvas, seriam unidades ou até gramas. 
Gramas, no caso, uso muito, porque faço dieta.


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## Du_sud

Poxa, ninguém mais vai comentar sobre o que disse Benvindo no post #15?
Fiquei curioso sobre o tal " Já comeu *do* bolo que fiz ontem? "
Afinal, a preposição de na frase acima é um partitivo do português ou não?

Outro contexto bem comum:
"-Quer mais pizza?"
"-Sim, quero dessa aí!" (que está perto de quem está oferecendo)

É partitivo ou não é?


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## avok

As far as I can see, the structure of "do bolo" is closer to the English construction "I am *of the *same idea" or "it is *of *wood " rather than the French partitive article but still they are very close. There was a similar question about the use of "van" (means "of" in Dutch) as a partitive article in the Dutch forum. Might be interesting.
Even in Turkish we have a similar structure such as "Pastadan yedin mi" (Did you eat _from _the cake) vs. "Pastayı yedin mi?" (did you eat the cake). The fisrt one has a partitive meaning.

Ciao belos e belas


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## Du_sud

I don't believe the preposition de in "Você comeu do bolo?" can be included in the same usage as that of the examples given by Avok in English.
I'm more likely to believe it is actually a partitive. 
I wonder why no one else is writing about it in the thread...


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## olivinha

avok said:


> As far as I can see, the structure of "do bolo" is closer to the English construction "I am *of the *same idea" or "it is *of *wood
> Even in Turkish we have a similar structure such as "Pastadan yedin mi" (Did you eat _from _the cake) vs. "Pastayı yedin mi?" (did you eat the cake). The fisrt one has a partitive meaning.


Hi, Avok.
So how you would translate "Você comeu do bolo"?




Du_sud said:


> I wonder why no one else is writing about it in the thread...


Hi, Du_sud.
You talk as if you did not read Denis's and Alandria's responses.


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## Du_sud

I did read their nice posts, Olivinha - as I always do, btw. What I mean is that no one actually came with the answer - if it really exists. Denis made a comment just like mine. 
My question is: is it (specifically what Benvnido wrote) a partitive or not? 
To that question, no one has given a reply... yet!


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## olivinha

Aah, I see, sorry. 
Hopefully an _expert_ on the subject will pop up sooner or later.


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## Outsider

Whether or not "Você comeu do bolo?" -- which I would translate as "Did you eat some / a piece of cake?" -- is semantically a partitive or not, the fact remains that Portuguese does not have a partitive article, that is a special form of article to be used as a partitive, and a partitive only. More often than not, the equivalent of the French partitive is represented in Portuguese by no article.


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## Nanon

A _special_ form used as a partitive _only_ - do you mean morphologically, Out? Because "du" is defined in classical French grammar as "article défini contracté" (de + le) even if it is not used as a partitive (la femme du boulanger, etc...) But there is a better place to discuss that...

I have a gut feel that Benvindo's sentence is rather close to a partitive. Obviously partitives are my second nature, though I am not the grammar expert Olivinha expects - sorry!

My third nature (Spanish) lacks partitive to the extent I would be tempted to translate Benvindo's sentence as "¿Probaste (has probado - depending on where you are from ) la torta que hice ayer?", i.e. "have you tried", using a verb to indicate that you had a piece instead of having it all. OK, I know, there is another better place to discuss that as well...


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## mtmjr

I'm intrigued by all these thoughts about other languages as well.  As far as I can see, this forum allows _any _language, and I think it would be easier to have a discussion if other languages are brought into context.  This way, I don't have to hop around to multiple threads to read about the same thing...

As far as I can tell from all of this discussion, however, I think it's interesting that there is no difinitive answer.  Grammatically, I think Outsider has a good point, namely that there is no separate classification (as there is in French) for partitive articles.  Therefore, I would tend to think the answer is no.

However, "de + _definite article_" _is_ how one creates a partitive in French or Italian, so it's odd to me that Portuguese does it, yet does not call it "partitive article" -- especially if it is used to specify indeterminite quantities such as with bread or cake.

Last, from the little Spanish I've studied, I've seen that there is a preference to just leave the article out altogether in this sort of situation.  I originally thought this was true of Portugese as well, but it seems differs regionally (or perhaps personally).


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## Du_sud

Exactly mtmjr!
I really think that in a sentence like "_...quem bebe de sua água não vai mais embora..._" (lyrics of a local song) that "de" is clearly being used as a partitive, even if we do not have it in formal grammar.


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## Outsider

mtmjr said:


> Last, from the little Spanish I've studied, I've seen that there is a preference to just leave the article out altogether in this sort of situation.  I originally thought this was true of Portugese as well [...]


And it is. That is what happens most of the time.

The construction that Benvindo brought up is quite rare. Furthermore, the _de_ in that construction is classified as a preposition, not as an article. Again, Portuguese has no partitive articles.

There are similar constructions in English, by the way: 

"Did you drink from this cup?"
"I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever [...]" John 6:51


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## mtmjr

If indeed it is as rare as you say (and there's no reason for me to think otherwise) then I think that generally solves it.  I am just speculating at this point, but maybe Portuguese had partitives at some point in history, but have since lost them, leaving only rare traces of their existence.  Of course, I'm just guessing...  After all, "eat of this bread" is a rare (if not nonexistent) construction today.


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## Benvindo

[Outsider] The construction that Benvindo brought up is quite rare...

- - -
Partitivo ou não, aqui em São Paulo o uso até que é bem comum, pelo menos com comidas,  a exemplo da pizza mencionada no post anterior do Du_Sud. Será que tem alguma coisa de influência italiana (não por causa da pizza, desculpem se ficou parecendo um chavão, mas por ter sido numeroso o contingente de imigrantes italianos em SP)? Como é nas outras regiões do Brasil e em Portugal (raro/estranho?).


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## avok

olivinha said:


> Hi, Avok.
> So how you would translate "Você comeu do bolo"?.


 
I would translate this sentence into Turkish as "Pastadan yedin mi?" ( lit.: did you eat _from_ this cake?: i.e. not all the cake) and I'd translate it into English as "Did you taste the cake?" since you can't taste all of the cake, you need to eat a piece of it to taste it. Or "Did you eat *any *cake?" I believe, in this context, "do bolo" is closer to "some/any cake" rather than the French partitive. And in English some/any is not a partitive article.

And if "do" in "do bolo" were a partitive article, then all the uncountable nouns in Portuguese would be used in sentences like this. But we don't say "Bebo *da* agua" in Portuguese whereas in French it is "je bois *de l'eau*", "du café" etc. Do we say "Bebo do café" in Portuguese? No.

In English, can we say "I ate from this cake" to mean "comei do bolo"?
I totally agree with Outsiders example, " to eat of the bread" : the same structure as "do bolo"


*Edit*: I think "Did you eat *any cake*?" would mean that there are more than one cake and the person asks if I ate any of those cakes. Whereas "did you eat *any of the* cake" means if I ate any piece of the cake. So, "do bolo" may mean "some/any of the cake"


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## Outsider

Benvindo said:


> [Outsider] The construction that Benvindo brought up is quite rare...
> 
> - - -
> Partitivo ou não, aqui em São Paulo o uso até que é bem comum, pelo menos com comidas,  a exemplo da pizza mencionada no post anterior do Du_Sud.


I had no idea that it was a common expression in São Paulo! Sorry about that.

In Portugal, it exists, but it's not used very often.

Can we agree, though, that Avok is by and large right when he says the following?



avok said:


> [...] if "do" in "do bolo" were a partitive article, then all the uncountable nouns in Portuguese would be used in sentences like this. But we don't say "Bebo *da* agua" in Portuguese whereas in French it is "je bois *de l'eau*", "du café" etc. Do we say "Bebo do café" in Portuguese? No.


In other words, are we in agreement that, while partitive articles may exist, or have existed, in Portuguese, and be normal in some places, the bottom line is that we just don't use them nearly as much as in French?...


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## Nanon

If I am allowed to emit an opinion here, I, at least, would agree!... On a strictly comparative basis, not to sway out of topic.


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## avok

Yes French has a partitive article whereas Portuguese has not  And dont worry, if Portuguese had a partitive article then it would be in all of the grammar books!


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## Denis555

I think that in the case mentioned above,(você já comeu do bolo?) although we can't call it a partitive article as such, we can call it a partitive construction. I'm quite convinced of that. Benvindo's example is really food for thought!

We've kind of inadvertently come across something very interesting indeed.

And my speculation, as to why we don't say "bebo do café", is that it might be because we see the "coffee" as a whole. We're supposed to drink the whole (cup of) coffee and not share a part of its content with somebody else. Quite different from the case of a cake when we share it with others and don't eat the whole lot (normally).

_Out and Benvindo_, this construction "do bolo" is common in my region, too(Nordeste) so an influence of Italian immigrants (and the Italian language or Italian dialects) couldn't account for that.


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## avok

Is there any example other than "do bolo"??? I am curious!


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## Benvindo

[Outsider] ... can we agree, though, that Avok is by and large right when he says the following ... 

Yes, from what I’ve learned (and I’ve learned a lot!) from these posts, I think we can. I was thinking that we don’t just say  “ontem eu comi do arroz”, “comi do feijão”, etc, just as avok pointed before.

     [avok] ..if Portuguese had a partitive article then it would be in all of the grammar books! .. 

Quite a good point.

    [Denis555]  ... this construction "do bolo" is common in my region, too(Nordeste) soan influence of Italian immigrants (and the Italian language or Italian dialects) couldn't account for that. 

Thanks for the information.

    [avok] Is there any example other than "do bolo"??? I am curious! 

All I can remember now is that as a kid I attended to Mass, and then used to hear the priest say: “então ele tomou _do_ pão, partiu-o, abençoou-o e deu aos seus discípulos dizendo etc...” (I’m not sure if the order of the words is really this). But of course this is a very specific situation.


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## Denis555

Some examples that come to mind:

-Você já provou _da salada_? Está uma delícia!

-Você provou _do café_ que eu fiz? (It seems that with "provar" we can use this "partitive" construction with a variety of foods because we usually "provamos" just a _part_ of it.
But with other things (objects) we don't use "de". So that's why we don't say: Eu provei *do* sapato e ficou apertado. But simply: Eu provei o sapato e ficou apertado). (here, provar = to try on)

-Eu comi _do peixe_ que Maria preparou. 

-Eu bebi _desse vinho_ barato que ofereceram e agora tô com dor de cabeça! (Again, a part of the wine (some wine) was drunk by me not all the wine)


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## avok

"Provar" means "to taste" / "to try" né? I think when you say "você provou _*a* salada_?" it would indirectly imply "did you taste all of *the* salad"!! So "da salada" is used. I think from now on I'll try to use "do" "da" after the verb "provar" hahaha


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## Desastre

_I think when you say "você provou *a* salada?" it would indirectly imply "did you taste all of *the* salad"!!_

I beg to disagree. The verb "provar" in itself implies that you didn't... well, taste it all. A piece of advice: if you're going to try and simplify the rules for your spoken language experience, by all means do it, but stick with the non "partitive" (I'm not sure we've reached a consensus whether it should be called a partitive or not, but I digress) form. _Eu provei a salada_. In French, the _article partitif_ is mandatory; in Portuguese, it never is. Your sentence _could_ sound a little bit awkward in some situations, even if perfectly understandable, but I'd say that's a tiny drawback.

Here goes a popular saying that might be interesting for the discussion 

_Nunca diga "dessa água não beberei". _


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## Denis555

avok said:


> "Provar" means "to taste" / "to try" né? I think when you say "você provou _*a* salada_?" it would indirectly imply "did you taste all of *the* salad"!! So "da salada" is used. I think from now on I'll try to use "do" "da" after the verb "provar" hahaha


 
Just to make things clear. I tried to explain why we use this partitive construction but as _Desastre_ pointed out it doesn't mean that we don't use the non-partitive article-only construction with the same meaning.

In the case of "*Dessa* água não beberei", although very similar in structure actually I wouldn't call it a partitive. It has something to do more with a source just like when we use "from" in English.


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## avok

> The verb "provar" in itself implies that you didn't... well, taste it all


Of course I know that. Otherwise it would be eating it up! not tasting..but I am trying to understand the use of "do" and "da" and therefore brainstorming

The funny thing is the use of "dessa agua" or "do bolo" is totally like in Turkish, which does not deal with either articles or partitive constructions.

Ex: Bu su*dan* içtin mi? Did you drink _from_ this water?

Pasta*dan *yedin mi? Did you comeu do bolo

And in Turkish -dan (-den) means "from" as Potuguese "de" (do / da) !


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## Nanon

Denis555 said:


> In the case of "*Dessa* água não beberei", although very similar in structure actually I wouldn't call it a partitive. It has something to do more with a source just like when we use "from" in English.


 
Yesterday evening I was remembering that one too! Then I started thinking about all the other versions of this saying I know. It is ambiguous. It can be "from", it can be a normal negative form in French, which looks exactly like a partitive ("il ne faut pas dire : "Fontaine, je ne boirai *pas de* ton eau"), and Spanish has "*De* esta agua no beberé" ("from" again) while it has even less of a partitive than Portuguese. Plus, sayings may not always be used as examples, because they maintain a special, sometimes archaic, wording.

Ahem... no, Desastre, the partitive article is mandatory in French if you *eat* the salad, not if you *taste* it (tu as goûté la salade  = você provou a salada, sem partitivo / tu as mangé *de* la salade, com partitivo = não comeu toda). No mandatory redundancy here...  at least.


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## Desastre

Perhaps I didn't build my paragraph too well; I meant that in French the use of the partitive is mandatory when it *is* actually used. Therefore, you can't say _j'ai mangé la salade _and _j'ai mangé de la salade_ in the same ways, without the risk of semantic loss/deviation (this case) or grammatical errors, depending on the sentence. I shouldn't have written that right after a specific example, for I actually meant it as a general rule. That's why I said that in Portuguese, it _never_ is (implying that I'm not referring only to my example).

Then again, I could be awfully wrong _and_ not realizing that, which would suck big time


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## avok

Nanon said:


> Ahem... no, Desastre, the partitive article is mandatory in French if you *eat* the salad, not if you *taste* it (tu as goûté la salade = você provou a salada, sem partitivo / tu as mangé *de* la salade, com partitivo = não comeu toda). No mandatory redundancy here...  at least.


 
now I am totally confused.

* Nanon, Cant we say "j'ai goûté *de* la salade? " 

*Do we have to say "Provei da salada" all the time? Cant we say "Provei a salada"?



> Did you comeu do bolo


Haha this is the funniest mistake I have made. I wont correct it!


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## Desastre

_*Do we have to say "Provei da salada" all the time? Cant we say "Provei a salada"?

_You can use both, even though the last option sounds more natural to me.
Sorry for confusing you


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## Alandria

Denis555 said:


> In the case of "*Dessa* água não beberei", although very similar in structure actually I wouldn't call it a partitive. It has something to do more with a source just like when we use "from" in English.


 
It sounds biblicle to me...


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## Nanon

avok said:


> * Nanon, Cant we say "j'ai goûté *de* la salade? "



I did not mean that you *can't* goûter de la salade, Avok (sorry, just trying to imitate - there is, after all, something else than my frangloportunhol), I just meant that you *haven't to*. It is not *mandatory*. And though it is not the most natural-sounding option, it is grammatically correct.

You may even say "goûter *à* cette salade" if you want to have even less salad than before. Sorry if this is confusing - just adding one more option!

Ah, eu quero experimentar (d)aquele bolo também . Fico no aguardo da receita.  Deve ter ovos, açúcar, chocolate... e suponho que não contém nenhum partitivo.


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## Denis555

Bom, já que você pediu, aí vai a receita do bolo de que tanto falamos! 
http://tudogostoso.uol.com.br/receita/951-bolo-de-chocolate-molhadinho.html

Vamos todos comer desse bolo que 'tá uma delícia...


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