# Translating names: Do you translate foreign names in your language?



## Cracker Jack

I often wondered why in Spanish magazines and newspapers the names of royalties are always translated and even those of institutions. For example:

Queen Elizabeth II - Reina Isabel II
Prince Charles - Principe Carlos
Prince William - Principe Guillermo
Princess Stephanie - Princesa Estefania
Alliance Française - Alianza Francesa
British Council - Instituto Británico

However, in English articles, Juan Carlos is never referred to as John Charles or Instituto Cervantes as Cervantes Institute. I just picked up a French magazine and Diana's son is referred to as Prince William. I was expecting it to be Prince Guillaume. But in every French magazine I saw, it was still the same.

I would like to hear from our Spanish speaking friends from Spain and South America if there is a grammatical rule about these matters. Also from our other foreros, I'd like to know if this practice exists in their language and how the press treats it.

Personally, I believe that a person's name should be respected and not translated, retained as such. Well, that's just my opinion. Can you please enlighten me on this? Thanks a lot.


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## Godfather

I think it does exist in every language to a certain point and I have never heard of any grammatical rules about this. In German names like Prince Charles or Prince William are not translated from English. But then again princes from Netherlands or Norway are translated. If it wasn't for the globalization I think names would still be translated in every language. If you look at a famous person who lived hundred of years ago:

Cristòfor Colom (Catalan)
Krzysztof Kolumb (Polish)
Cristóvão Colombo (Portoguese)
Christoffel Columbus (Dutch)
Christoph Kolumbus (German)
Christophe Colomb (French)
Christopher Columbus (English)
Cristoforo Colombo (Italian)


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## Outsider

Cracker Jack said:
			
		

> Personally, I believe that a person's name should be respected and not translated, retained as such. Well, that's just my opinion. Can you please enlighten me on this? Thanks a lot.


There is a long tradition, going back to Latin and beyond, of translating foreign names. I think this was, in part, because the locals couldn't pronounce the foreign names properly, and also because ancient inflected languages like Latin and Greek needed familiar word endings, to be able to decline the nouns (thus, Karol became Carol_us_, Heinrich became Henrich_us_, etc.) Nowadays, people tend to be more informed about foreign languages and cultures, and Spanish, in particular, no longer declines nouns, but certain social areas are more conservative. I expect that the royalty are conservative in these matters. Also, you can't go back and rewrite all the Spanish history books that call Henry VIII "Enrique VIII".


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## jmx

That rule isn't universal in Spain. In fact it is more common not to translate, for example :

Vladimir Putin  (not Vladimiro)
George Bush   (not Jorge)
Jacques Chirac  (not Santiago/Diego/Jaime)

I don't know what rule applies, maybe it's only for the royalty.


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## marinax

jmartins said:
			
		

> That rule isn't universal in Spain. In fact it is more common not to translate, for example :
> 
> Vladimir Putin (not Vladimiro)
> George Bush (not Jorge)
> Jacques Chirac (not Santiago/Diego/Jaime)
> 
> I don't know what rule applies, maybe it's only for the royalty.


 
that is true. sometimes we translate names, sometimes we dont.
i agree with NOT TRANSLATING names.
i always say "you were named Maria by your parents, so Mary is not you!"

but is also true that we are not able to pronounce some words of foreign languages (russian, arabic, etc).


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## Tekeli-li! Tekeli-li!

As for Czech, translation of certain names used to be common, but has been receding in favour of original names.

A 1957 political atlas states that the American revolution was led by _Jiří Washington_ and _Tomáš Jefferson_. Everyone used to know lightbulbs were invented by _Tomáš_ Alva Edison. The discoverer of America will forever be known as _Kryštof Kolumbus_. These were exceptions, however, and it was never very common to translate names of people who weren't royalty, saints, or otherwise "exceptional". No-one does it nowadays, at any rate. 

As for royalty and saints, the "rule" seems to be that those who were born before WW2 (approximately) have their names translated (if they have a Czech equivalent), whereas the younger ones do not. There is therefore a paradoxical situation: Queen _Alžběta_ has a son named _Charles_. Personally, I think this doesn't make any sense; I think we should either continue the tradition and call him _Karel_, or abandon it altogether and refer to the Queen by her English name (and of course do the same with all the kings and nobles who ever lived, which makes the former option a lot more viable).


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## Cracker Jack

Thanks a lot for your responses.  I initially thought that the translation of names had something to do with nationalism - people just don't seem to be amenable to the idea of using names other than that prescribed by their language.  But that was a wrong notion.

I also thought about the pronunciation stuff. But I wasn't sure. Now that some of you have stated that as a reason, I think that's it.  Tekeli, I didn't know that the names of Washington and Jefferson had been translated in your dialect.  Aside from saints, the names of the popes, too are being translated.  To wit, Benedict, Benedicto, Benoit, etc.


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## cherine

We used to have this translations in Arabic too. If you look to old History books (in ALL languages) you'll find that each language presented the names in their own way.
For example the popes : John, Jean, Yuhanna (in Arabic), Johan....
Kings : Guillaume (Ghulyum in Arabic)
Even the names of some cities :
Venice --> al-bundukeyya
Austria --> al-nimsa
Libanon (English) - Liban (frensh) - Lubnan (Arabic)

The common usage now in Arabic countries is to keep foreign names as they are, just transliterate them in Arabic letters, but when mentioning old popes and kings we use what we've already learned from old historians. (same goes of course for the names of countries and cities, with few exceptions, like Venice which we "call" Venisia).


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## zebedee

Cracker Jack said:
			
		

> I often wondered why in Spanish magazines and newspapers the names of royalties are always translated and even those of institutions.


 
Yes, I've always thought it strange that "Queen Elizabeth II" is translated to "La Reina Isabel II" (when 'Isabel' and 'Elizabeth' are two clearly different names in English) and yet the actress "Elizabeth Taylor", for example, is never translated to "Isabel Taylor".


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## Roi Marphille

yes, my friend Cracker Jack, 
this practice is common and it is ridiculous too. I actually hate it! 
I must point however that years ago it was even more common. I think media is tending to solve this little by little, not Royal names but common football players, artists, politicians names...we are going to better, very slow though..


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## Brioche

Tekeli-li! Tekeli-li! said:
			
		

> As for Czech, translation of certain names used to be common, but has been receding in favour of original names.
> 
> A 1957 political atlas states that the American revolution was led by _Jiří Washington_ and _Tomáš Jefferson_. Everyone used to know lightbulbs were invented by _Tomáš_ Alva Edison. The discoverer of America will forever be known as _Kryštof Kolumbus_. These were exceptions, however, and it was never very common to translate names of people who weren't royalty, saints, or otherwise "exceptional". No-one does it nowadays, at any rate.
> 
> As for royalty and saints, the "rule" seems to be that those who were born before WW2 (approximately) have their names translated (if they have a Czech equivalent), whereas the younger ones do not. There is therefore a paradoxical situation: Queen _Alžběta_ has a son named _Charles_. Personally, I think this doesn't make any sense; I think we should either continue the tradition and call him _Karel_, or abandon it altogether and refer to the Queen by her English name (and of course do the same with all the kings and nobles who ever lived, which makes the former option a lot more viable).


 
Old "translated" names such as Columbus and Copernicus date from the days when Latin was the international language of learning.
At that time most learning was transmitted from one country to another via Latin, then translated into the local language.

Some people translated their names as they moved from country to country.  The Italian-born composer _Giovanni Battista Lulli_ is far better known as _Jean-Baptiste Lully_, as he did most of his work in the court of Louis XIV of France.  Cardinal Jules Marzarin started life as _Giulio Mazarini_.

The coins of the English/UK kings Charles, James, William, Edward and George have Carolvs, Iacobvs, Gvlielmvs, Edwardvs and Georgivs on them, and the coins of queens Ann and Mary have Anna and Maria on them.


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## Outsider

zebedee said:
			
		

> Yes, I've always thought it strange that "Queen Elizabeth II" is translated to "La Reina Isabel II" (when 'Isabel' and 'Elizabeth' are two clearly different names in English) [...]


Isabel is not a traditional English name.


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## cuchuflete

Outsider said:
			
		

> Isabel is not a traditional English name.


It has been in common use in the US for centuries. It was common in the 18th and 19th centuries, went out of fashion in the 20th, and has now regained a spot among the 100 most common girls' names.

It was among the 10 most popular female names in England in the late 16th century. (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cach.../givennames.html+isabel+"english+names"&hl=en)


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## Outsider

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> It was among the 10 most popular female names in England in the late 16th century. (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cach.../givennames.html+isabel+"english+names"&hl=en)


That is impressive! French influence, I suppose (Isabelle). 
Elizabeth came first, though.


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## alitza

Hi everybody.
In Romanian we almost never translate proper names, and we pronounce them as close to their original pronunciations as possible. There are exceptions, of course, mostly names of countries and a few city names. However, I have noticed that in other languages not only do they apply the rules of pronunciation of their own language, but even translate them.
For instance, for Romanians New York is New York (pronounced as in English) whereas for the Spanish it's Nueva York. For us Zurich is Zurich, for the Italians is Zurigo etc.
Hungarians, for example, even translate writers' names. For them Jules Verne is Verne Gyula, which seems rather odd to me. 
I'd love to know how it is in other languages.
Thanks.
Alitza


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## parakseno

Hello there...

so far, what I've seen in Greek is that they tend to "translate" every name. That's also because of the alphabet and the way letters are pronounced. For example there isn't a [j] sound (like the one in French and Romanian) in Greek so they have to "translate" the names that include this sound. 

So, some names are "translated phonetically": for "Jules Verne" you have "Ιούλιος Βερν" (Iulios Vern).

Other names are translated in the real sense of the word. Your example with "New York" would be translated in Greek as "Νέα Υόρκη" (Nea Yorki - "nea" being an adjective which means "new").


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## ireney

Just to clarify parakseno's post: We translate words like "new" that exist in Greek too and transcribe the rest. In older times we went too far, adding Greek endings and in general messing up the names to the point of making them unrecognisable (example: Descartes became Καρτέσιος Kartessios). 

A note on Jules Verne: Ιούλιος is not a phonetic translation unless you go waaay back to the Roman times when we first transcribed Julius (month and name). From then on the Ιούλιος has been part of the Greek vocabulary. 

As to first names, nowadays we rarely translate them and only in cases of personal acquaintances provided there is a widely used Greek equivalent (for example George Bush is always Τζορτζ Μπους [simple trasncription] but I may call my friend George Γιώργο if he knows Greek and we prefers it that way. A David on the other hand, although we have an equivalent, we'll always remain David.)


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## Victoria32

alitza said:


> Hi everybody.
> In Romanian we almost never translate proper names, and we pronounce them as close to their original pronunciations as possible. There are exceptions, of course, mostly names of countries and a few city names. However, I have noticed that in other languages not only do they apply the rules of pronunciation of their own language, but even translate them.
> For instance, for Romanians New York is New York (pronounced as in English) whereas for the Spanish it's Nueva York. For us Zurich is Zurich, for the Italians is Zurigo etc.
> Hungarians, for example, even translate writers' names. For them Jules Verne is Verne Gyula, which seems rather odd to me.
> I'd love to know how it is in other languages.
> Thanks.
> Alitza


By and large, in English, we do not translate names - at least, not the names of people. Places however, yes, we do.. Munchen is Munich, for instance, and there are others.


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## Outsider

Two related threads: Translating names, and All Slavic languages: Thessalonica, Vienna, Beijing and other geographical names.


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## Outsider

ireney said:


> Just to clarify parakseno's post: We translate words like "new" that exist in Greek too and transcribe the rest. In older times we went too far, adding Greek endings and in general messing up the names to the point of making them unrecognisable (example: Descartes became Kartessios).


Descartes himself latinized his name as Renatus Cartesius, which is where the adjective "Cartesian" comes from. At the time, it was customary for intellectuals to write in Latin, and they would also adapt their names. Descartes was actually one of the first to break away from the latinist tradition; some of his books were re-edited in French, if I remember well.


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## ireney

Point acceded Outsider. What do you have to say about poor Βετχοβιανός though (Vethovianos) Beethoven?


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## Outsider

Oh, very amusing! 

But you did not use standard transliteration. You left me wondering if tau-khi was pronounced like an unvoiced English "th" in modern Greek.


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## fenixpollo

I would like to share my opinion on this subject.  However, I have already shared my opinion, loudly and to the dismay of my fellow foreros, in these threads: *geographical names: abuses* and *pronunciation of foreign city names*.

Enjoy.


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## Woodybaru

hi there, there are certain rules for each grammar but generally you dont translate names, in mexico we can use the real word (name) but giving extra explanation of what it mean...
I think its much better to use the original than attempt to translate it and fail cause nobody would agree with you.


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## don maico

Victoria32 said:


> By and large, in English, we do not translate names - at least, not the names of people. Places however, yes, we do.. Munchen is Munich, for instance, and there are others.


Some we do soime we dont- Buenos Aires stays the same as does Madrid and Paris although the French dont pronounce the s, Lima is Lima as is Santiago. Koln ,though, is Cologne and lets not even start with the Polish placenames


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## *Giulia*

Outsider said:


> Descartes himself latinized his name as Renatus Cartesius, which is where the adjective "Cartesian" comes from. At the time, it was customary for intellectuals to write in Latin, and they would also adapt their names. Descartes was actually one of the first to break away from the latinist tradition; some of his books were re-edited in French, if I remember well.



In fact, here in Italy we call Renée Descartes as Renato Cartesio. Until Secon World War we used to transalte nouns in Italian, so a lot of  famous cities have now an "Italian name": for example London is Londra, Paris is Parigi, Wien becomes Vienna. But New York is New York!
And Jules Verne is Giulio Verne!
Anway, now we don't do that anymore, so "new names" are not translated.
But I know also english people translate Italian cities into English: Venezia is Venice (or Venise for French people), Roma is Rome anf Firenze is Florence. Sicilia becomes Sicily and Italia is Italy.
I think this is a way to make words more "pronounceble". Jules Verne is more difficult to pronounce for me than Giulio Verne, because of the particular French "r". For example, my grandmother doesn't speak French: if she reads Paris she doesn't know how to pronounce it... she probabily would say Paris with the Italian pronounce.
What do you think?
Bye
Giulia


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## Outsider

That's almost 100% the same as in Portuguese, Giulia, except that we don't translate René Descartes, at least not nowadays, and we do translate "New York": Nova York (Brazil), Nova Iorque (Portugal).


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## jazyk

I've seen both Nova York (ridiculous, by the way, half Portuguese, half English) and Nova Iorque in Brazil.  I only use the latter.


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## beclija

Serbian transliterates all proper names, independently of which writing system is used (Latin or Cyrrilic). So _Достоевский _becomes Достојевски/Dostojevski and Bush Buš/Буш. Or a newspaper might quote it's sorce as "asošiejted pres". 
This makes sure that there will always be a one-to-one correspondance between the two systems.


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## Heba

Sometimes, we translate proper names of cities into Arabic, sometimes we do not. For Example,New York remains New York ''نيويورك'' and London remains London ''لندن'', but Greece or Hellas is translated as ''Al-Yonan- اليونان'' and England becomes ''ingeltra- انجلترا''.

We translate the names of the majority of the Spanish cities and regions. For example, Cadiz is ''Qadesh-قادش'', Sevillia ''Ishbelia- أشبيلية'', Zaragoza ''Sarqasta- سرقسطة'', Murcia ''Morseyah- مرسية'', etc. I guess that this has to do with the presence of Muslims and Arabs in Spain hundreds of years ago.

We rarely translate proper names of persons into Arabic. Exceptions include names of old Greek names like Plato ''Aflaton- افلاطون'' and Socrates ''Soqrat-سقراط ''.


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## kosicanka

In Slovakia, we use translated names only for some historical persons,  e.g.  Henry VIII. is Henrich VIII., Cristoforo Colombo is Krištof Kolumbus.
Still, female surnames get Slovak suffix -ová, so Marilyn Monroe becomes Marilyn Monroeová... I don't like this rule, I find it pretty unnatural.

For Slovak names of some cities see Glossary: City_Names_Slavic in Slavic Languages section (I'm not allowed to paste links yet).


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## coconutpalm

Some of the translators choose to translate it. Most of these people lived in the old China.
Now, we seldom do it, just spell names out as close as possible to their original pronuciation.
However, for New York, New Jersey, we translate New, but not York or Jersey. for the Great Britain, we translate Great, but not Britain. I think the reason is that New and Great has a definite meaning in Chinese, but if we translate York, Jersey or Britain, the translation can only confuse the audience, as happend in the early 1920s or 1930s translation.


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## diamania

Somethings are different written then other langauges in dutch.

Like Den Haag, its The Hague in english.

and yes we write some names different sometimes like the bicyclist: Viatcheslav Ekimov.
Some people write it Viatsjeslav Jekimov. But thats more with slavic country names.


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## TonioMiguel

I've noticed in the US and in Mexico that many folks just try to pronounce names as well as they can.  Like the golfer Sergio is pronounced Ser-gee-oh.  Rather than the proper Ser-hee-o (Spanish).  To me, failing to try to pronounce ones last name is quite disappointing.  Especially in the US which has always seemed to frown upon people with foreign names.  I noticed that foreign names recently are on the rise rather than people taking Americanized names.

As my profile name TonioMiguel I am very much translating my name in Spanish.  I am Anthony Michael but I have grown fond of my Mexican nickname.  In Mexico, many people thought it was strange that I went by my Mexican translated name.  Movies in Mexico tend to speak the actor names with the best English accent they can.  Oddly I do not allow Americans to call me Tony but I love the nickname Tonio or Toño as they say in Mexico.

As for names, I know not until recently if there was an English equivilent name it was spoken.  Like if somebody was Jorge he would be automatically called George.  Yet, now it seems that multicultural names are on a boom.  This can be easily seen by the rise of African names being used by the African American community and other cultures in general.

I for one would love to see us call Spain España rather than butchering it with a word that really doesn't sound anything like its original.  Same for Deutschland instead Germany since to them they are Deutch not German.  Yet, English tends to take after its partial Latin parents by calling everything under a conquered name or Englishized name.


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## Tsoman

TonioMiguel said:


> I for one would love to see us call Spain España rather than butchering it with a word that really doesn't sound anything like its original.  Same for Deutschland instead Germany since to them they are Deutch not German.  Yet, English tends to take after its partial Latin parents by calling everything under a conquered name or Englishized name.



In your opinion then, should spanish speakers start changing their 'estados unidos' into 'United States' and change their 'estadounidense' into 'american' because that's what we use?


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## Outsider

TonioMiguel said:


> I've noticed in the US and in Mexico that many folks just try to pronounce names as well as they can. Like the golfer Sergio is pronounced Ser-gee-oh. Rather than the proper Ser-hee-o (Spanish). To me, failing to try to pronounce ones last name is quite disappointing. Especially in the US which has always seemed to frown upon people with foreign names.


I don't know, our most purist posters seem to be Americans.


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## Riccardino

TonioMiguel said:


> I've noticed in the US and in Mexico that many folks just try to pronounce names as well as they can. Like the golfer Sergio is pronounced Ser-gee-oh. Rather than the proper Ser-hee-o (Spanish). To me, failing to try to pronounce ones last name is quite disappointing. Especially in the US which has always seemed to frown upon people with foreign names. I noticed that foreign names recently are on the rise rather than people taking Americanized names.
> 
> As my profile name TonioMiguel I am very much translating my name in Spanish. I am Anthony Michael but I have grown fond of my Mexican nickname. In Mexico, many people thought it was strange that I went by my Mexican translated name. Movies in Mexico tend to speak the actor names with the best English accent they can. Oddly I do not allow Americans to call me Tony but I love the nickname Tonio or Toño as they say in Mexico.



When studying a foreign language, I insist on being called my name in the version in the other language. I think it sounds better, especially when you say "my name is..." and thats in another language, but you say your name how you would say it in your language, it sounds tacky to me and also throws off flow.

So I'm Richard in French class, where you don't say the last "d", and Riccardo in Italian class - or Riccardino if I want to convey what I'm called at home by my parents and sisters - Richie. It's funny how when I run into other students outside of class they go "Hey Riccardo whats up".


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## curly

In Ireland almost none of the place names make any sense whatsoever because most of the original irish place name were changed in spelling and phonetics to sound more english.

As result we have completely crazy names like malahide (Mullach íde) and hundreds of bally...s, dun...s, and kil...s


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## maxiogee

curly said:


> In Ireland almost none of the place names make any sense whatsoever because most of the original irish place name were changed in spelling and phonetics to sound more english.
> 
> As result we have completely crazy names like malahide (Mullach íde) and hundreds of bally...s, dun...s, and kil...s



I respectfully disagree with you there, and would query your use of "almost none"!

Almost all placenames in Ireland make sense still in the Irish. It is the Anglicisations which don't make much sense - but they still meaning carry for the linguist with any knowledge of the Celtic languages — for instance, the Irish _abhainn_ equates directly to the English word "Avon".
The reason why the Anglicisations don't make much sense is common to many countries where the British Empire renamed places, but that doesn't mean that placenames end up 'meaningless'.


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## curly

I just think that it would have been nice to leave the irish names, or at least the meaning of them in english, i've noticed a few cool words in languages where the translation provides more insight to the word, mostly because it makes you thik about the origins.

But hey, i've spent my life diligently ignoring irish lessons.


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## natasha2000

beclija said:


> Serbian transliterates all proper names, independently of which writing system is used (Latin or Cyrrilic). So _Достоевский _becomes Достојевски/Dostojevski and Bush Buš/Буш. Or a newspaper might quote it's sorce as "asošiejted pres".
> This makes sure that there will always be a one-to-one correspondance between the two systems.


 
I would add something to this. Most of the foreign names are transcribed, as Beclija already explained. In the past, we used to translate the names of kings and queens (as Spaniards do), but after the WWI, this custom was changed, so now we say Charles (written: Čarls), or Felipe or Juan Carlos (written: Huan Karlos), etc. The only names we still transalte to Serbian version are the names of the popes. Juan Pablo - John-Paul, was in Serbian Jova-Pavle. 

On the other hand, normally, the names of countries are sligtly changed, or they stick to the original, but there are few that are unrecognizable in Serbian.
Germany - Nemačka
Wienna - Beč

The compound names of the states are translated:
The United State of America - Sjedinjene Američke Države - the USA - SAD
The Great Britain - Velika Britanija

but:

London - London
Paris - Pariz
Madrid - Madrid
Geneuve - Ženeva (transcribed the ronunciation in French - sorrz if mz French spelling is wrong. Feel free to correct me)

I certainly do not supoport the suggestion that one language should now start chenging what is so rooted. If Spanish people call London Londres, or Denmark Dinamarca, then they should continue doing it, because it is the only normal and natural way in Spanish to call those places. Anyway, as far as Deutschland is concerned, I think that nobody in this world calls Germany Deutschland except the very same Germanic speakers.
It would be ridiculous to force the change at all cost.


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## beclija

In German, we usually translate the names of kings and queens, especially historical ones - William the Conquerer becomes Wilhelm (actually, he's Guillaume in French, so "William" is also a translation), and Elizabeth II might be either that or Eli*s*abeth. But, as in Serbian, we don't translate Juan Carlos. Other personal names are rarely translated, although people might refer as "Josef" to some "Josip" informally.


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## Outsider

Otra perspectiva sobre esto.


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## natasha2000

Outsider said:


> Otra perspectiva sobre esto.


 
Interesting.
But then, I would say that this thread reflects that in some countries this issue is of rather political nature, and sometimes lacks of logic in favor of "political kerrektness".
Very sad, indeed.


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## Outsider

I would say that _within_ countries place names often have a political/identitary dimension.


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## beclija

I think in some cases it makes sense to use the "politically correct" term. Take Bratislava - it has been officially renamed, used to be called _Prešporek _in Slovak historically. In that case, calling it "Pressburg" in German other than in historical contexts seems like an anachronism.


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## natasha2000

Outsider said:


> I would say that _within_ countries place names often have a political/identitary dimension.


 
Correct. And it usually does not have anything to do with its linguistic aspect.

I feel that I need to clarify: My commentary referred only to the topic of the mentioned thread. No more, no less. I wouldn't dare to comment any other country's situation that I am not familiar with.


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## )o(Akasha)o(

Tsoman said:


> In your opinion then, should spanish speakers start changing their 'estados unidos' into 'United States' and change their 'estadounidense' into 'american' because that's what we use?


I don't think so, it would just sound strange


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## Etcetera

In Russia, we usually transliterate foreign names. Proper names are always to be transliterated. 
However, the situation with names of cities is more complicated. For example, here are some names of Italian cities and their English and Russian equivalents:
Roma - Rome - Рим (Rim) 
Torino - Turin - Турин (Turin)
Milano - Milan - Милан (Milan)
Venezia - Venice - Венеция (Venetsiya)
Genova - Genoa - Генуя (Genuya)
New York is Нью-Йорк in Russian (pronounced almost the same as in American English), but New Zealand, for example, is Новая Зеландия (Novaya Zelandiya). Great Britain is called Великобритания.
As for the writers' names, they're transliterated, so Jules Verne is called Жюль Верн in Russian. I've never done any French, so I don't know how close the Russian pronunciation od this names is to the original French one.  The names of English kings, for example, are used in their original form if there's no equivalent of this particular name in Russia: King Richard III is король Ричард III, but King George VI is referred to as король Георг VI.


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## beclija

That would be Richard pronounced as in the original (or as close as you can get with the sounds of Russian) and George as [georg], ge- as in "get" and -org as in "organize". For those who can't read  

Everyone: Do you make attempts to pronounce foreign names "correctly" in your language when there are no equivalent sounds? I don't think I do, not even when I speak the language they are take from and have no problems with the sounds themselves: In a German sentence, I'd most likely say [vošingtn] for Washington, because we don't have the w-sound, although I don't have any trouble pronouncing it in English. Similarly, I would say [sagRep] for Zagreb because we don't differenciate between "s" and "z", have only uvular R and final devoicing. Call it respectless, but I do it also in the other direction: when I say "München" or "Köln" in Serbian or Croatian, it will be [minxen] and [keln] without ü/ö (plus some differences on the "ch" and "l") - again it's not for difficulties in pronounciation, it's my native tongue after all. To me, it sometimes even feels unnatural or even snobbish to pronounce it "correctly" disregarding the phonetics of the language.


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## natasha2000

beclija said:


> To me, it sometimes even feels unnatural or even snobbish to pronounce it "correctly" disregarding the phonetics of the language.


 
Exactly. That is why in Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian foreign names are transcribed, which means pronounce it as close as it is possible but sound that do not exist in S/C/B, are replaced with the most similar ones. You gave an excellent example. Köln - This "ö" is something between o and e, meaning you put your mouth as if you would say O but you pronounce E. The result is some kind os semisound, something between O and E. Now, since this sound does not exist in S/C/B the closest variant is vocal E. Therefore we say KELN.
Or Barcelona. C as fricative Spanish sound does not exist in S/C/B. Therefore, the closest sound is S, and we pronounce it BARSELONA (BTW, this is how it is pronounced in all American countries). But I also think that this city has different pronunciation in Croatian and Bosnian, who decided to read exactly as it is written - in S/C/B the letter C is pronounced as German TZ, so Croats and Bosnians pronounce this city's name as BARTZELONA.

Everyone who tries to pronounce foreign names in an exact way as it is in foreign language is considered posh and snobbish, as Beclija already mentioned.


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## Etcetera

beclija said:


> Everyone: Do you make attempts to pronounce foreign names "correctly" in your language when there are no equivalent sounds?


I don't think I do.  Just because in case I try, I won't be understood, in all probability. People just won't understand why I do it!


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## Hakro

Just a couple of years ago it was decided that the names of kings and queens won't be "translated" into Finnish anymore.

 Instead, the name of the countries and some important cities still have a special "Finnish" form:
Sweden - Ruotsi
Russia - Venäjä
Germany - Saksa
Stockholm – Tukholma
St. Petersburg – Pietari
London – Lontoo
Rome – Rooma
...and a few more. These are very old "translations". 
It may also be interesting (at least for us, the Finns) to know that the names of Berlin and Paris were "translated" only after WW2 into the form we pronounce them.

The main problem, I think, is the transcription of Chinese, Russian etc. names that seem to be different in every language. We should find a transcription that gives the reader an idea how to pronounce the name but the written form is different in every language.


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## Victoria32

Hakro said:


> Just a couple of years ago it was decided that the names of kings and queens won't be "translated" into Finnish anymore.
> 
> Instead, the name of the countries and some important cities still have a special "Finnish" form:
> Sweden - Ruotsi
> Russia - Venäjä
> Germany - Saksa
> Stockholm – Tukholma
> St. Petersburg – Pietari
> London – Lontoo
> Rome – Rooma
> ...and a few more. These are very old "translations".
> It may also be interesting (at least for us, the Finns) to know that the names of Berlin and Paris were "translated" only after WW2 into the form we pronounce them.
> 
> The main problem, I think, is the transcription of Chinese, Russian etc. names that seem to be different in every language. We should find a transcription that gives the reader an idea how to pronounce the name but the written form is different in every language.


Very interesting, Hakro! Finnish seems a very difficult language to me, (I know that's subjective) I note the similarity (Stockholm = Tukholma) and the differences (Sweden = Ruotsi). 
Off topic but only slightly, my son the motor racing fanatic, likes to listen on the internet to Radio Helsinki, which broadcasts a lot in English...)


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## Hakro

Victoria32 said:


> Very interesting, Hakro! Finnish seems a very difficult language to me, (I know that's subjective) I note the similarity (Stockholm = Tukholma) and the differences (Sweden = Ruotsi).
> Off topic but only slightly, my son the motor racing fanatic, likes to listen on the internet to Radio Helsinki, which broadcasts a lot in English...)


Thank you, Victoria!
Recently I read about a British linguist who said that Finnish is not a very difficult language, but I don't believe him because it seems to be very difficult for most of the Finns...
The Finnish name of Sweden, "Ruotsi", is supposed to come from the Swedish county of Roslagen. You know, the first Swedes came here before there was a state named Sweden, so they said they are from Roslagen. 
It's funny that also the name of Russia may have the same origin, because it was the Swedish "vikings" (from Roslagen?) who founded the Russian state in Novgorod (even this is a Swedish name: something like "New Garden").
The Finnish Broadcasting Company also gives news in Latin. I haven't listened but I believe that there are no translations of names into Latin. Are there any latinists who know better?


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## Victoria32

Hakro said:


> Thank you, Victoria!
> Recently I read about a British linguist who said that Finnish is not a very difficult language, but I don't believe him because it seems to be very difficult for most of the Finns...
> The Finnish name of Sweden, "Ruotsi", is supposed to come from the Swedish county of Roslagen. You know, the first Swedes came here before there was a state named Sweden, so they said they are from Roslagen.
> It's funny that also the name of Russia may have the same origin, because it was the Swedish "vikings" (from Roslagen?) who founded the Russian state in Novgorod (even this is a Swedish name: something like "New Garden").
> The Finnish Broadcasting Company also gives news in Latin. I haven't listened but I believe that there are no translations of names into Latin. Are there any latinists who know better?


Thank you Hakro for that information... it makes sense to me!


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## Outsider

There was a thread about this, All languages: Sweden.


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## Hakro

Victoria32 said:


> Thank you Hakro for that information... it makes sense to me!


I forgot to tell you that New Zealand is in Finnish "Uusi-Seelanti". It's half-translated: New is in Finnish "uusi" and "Seelanti" is just a twisted form of Zealand, which is originally a twisted form of the Dutch word Zeeland according to the Dutch province where Abel Janszoon Tasman and his group came from in 1642. I'm sure you knew this but it may be interesting information for other people.


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## Victoria32

Hakro said:


> I forgot to tell you that New Zealand is in Finnish "Uusi-Seelanti". It's half-translated: New is in Finnish "uusi" and "Seelanti" is just a twisted form of Zealand, which is originally a twisted form of the Dutch word Zeeland according to the Dutch province where Abel Janszoon Tasman and his group came from in 1642. I'm sure you knew this but it may be interesting information for other people.


Half translated, that's interesting! I shall tell my son...


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## Etcetera

Victoria32 said:


> Very interesting, Hakro! Finnish seems a very difficult language to me, (I know that's subjective) I note the similarity (Stockholm = Tukholma) and the differences (Sweden = Ruotsi).


It is difficult, I can say it for sure - I've been leaning Finnish for two years. 
Finnish names of countries and cities are very curious, indeed.


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## ronanpoirier

Etcetera said:
			
		

> Finnish names of countries and cities are very curious, indeed.


 
In Hungarian it is too. Mostly countries have the suffix "ország" which means "country". So to Hungary we have "Magyarország". In Hungarian, I think it's fun Italy and Russia: Olaszország and Oroszország.

And about the topic, I don't know if it was already mentioned, but we (Portuguese speakers) don't translate names, but for immigrants, here in Brazil, in the 1800's, some might have had their names changed because of the pronounce and stuff. We only translate historical names such as "Francisco Ferdinando" and "Cristovão Colombo".


EDIT: It's not a translation, but something like an equivalent of the name in Portuguese.


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## Etcetera

ronanpoirier said:


> In Hungarian it is too. Mostly countries have the suffix "ország" which means "country". So to Hungary we have "Magyarország". In Hungarian, I think it's fun Italy and Russia: Olaszország and Oroszország.


It's interesting how similar are the Hungarian names for Italy and Russia. 
Can you tell me, Ronanpoirier, how are they pronounced?


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## Blackleaf

There are many French placenames in England.  They were given their names by the Normans after the Norman Conquest.  However, the British don't pronoucne the French place names as the French would pronounce them.

For example, there is a town in Hampshire called Beaulieu.  It was named by the Normans.  It means "beautiful place."  But it is pronounced "Bewly."


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## Etcetera

A brilliant article! Thank you very much, Blackleaf. 


> When people study Finnish abroad it is most often once a week for perhaps two hours at a time in an evening class. Most teachers give students some home work but many students do not do it.


That's the actual case with us... We have three Finnish lessons a week, but of course it's too little. And as Finnish is only our minor language, we just can't devote to it as much time as to English, for example. 
My dream's of going to Finland and doing a course in Finnish there, so I could at once have the opportunity to practise it...


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## ferdinando

in Turkish we use Londra instead of London or Köln for Cologne etc..but some of them stay the same..for instance madrid is madrid porto is porto though spanish people calls it Oporto...


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## La Bruja Libanesa

In Lebanon usually we don't have problems so we keep the names as they are, but there we also tend to arabize some ( in the oral language) by adding to them arabic language charcteristics ( plural or feminin) ex : pantalon in French becomes in oral plural  pantalonet ( the T in arabic is one of plural ت)
Some foreign words have existed since so long that they have changed to the oral modification due to mishearings sometimes : ex chambre à air ( french) became orally chamberyer ( it is even written like this in arabic) 
شمبريار
but on another note, educated people do consider that this way is to the low class people so they try to pronounce the word in its original pronounciation


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## CrazyArcher

Also in Russian, Latin and Greek names are modified. 'Claudius' turns into 'Klavdiy', and the '-es' ending in Greek names is omitted.


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## Setwale_Charm

Etcetera said:


> It's interesting how similar are the Hungarian names for Italy and Russia.
> Can you tell me, Ronanpoirier, how are they pronounced?


 
 It is even more interesting how Russians call Hungary/Hongrie/Ungarn/Ungheria - Vengriya.


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## Macunaíma

One thing I've always found puzzling is that *Rio de Janeiro* is not traslated in most languages, so we hear it pronounced in every way one can think of! Perhaps this is because a translation of it might sound meaningless: The River of January.


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## Setwale_Charm

I think, Ivory Coast is translated in most languages (correct me if I am wrong), Archangel in the north of Russia is usually trsnlated. For most part, I think, names are not translated. Buenos Aires, Koebenhavn, Krasnodar primarily come to mind. However!! If there is a river involved: Rostov-on-Don, Stoke-on-Trent, Frankfurt-am-Main is definitely translated in Russian and Latvian.


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## Nanon

Sorry, Setwale Charm, but I think Copenhagen is translated...

This thread reminds me of a classical joke (but it really happened a thousand times) about French visitors getting lost in Flanders (the Dutch-speaking part of Belgium): they search vainly for the direction of "Lille" *, but in Flanders all road signs are in Dutch, so most of them read "Rijsel"... 

_* ... but Lille is in France, not in Belgium!_


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## Macunaíma

Rio de Janeiro, as far as I know, is not translated, but Brasil is (Brazil, Brésil, etc.). São Paulo always loses its tilde, of course, and is sometimes spelt Sao Paolo. 

In Portuguese we use translated versions for London (Londres), Edimburgh (Edimburgo), but we do not translate Cardiff, Aberdeen, Glasgow, Belfast and Dublin, just to mention the name of cities in the British Isles.

We translate the name of all major German cities, except for Berlin (but we spell it Berlim), and some French cities as well: Marseille becomes Marselha; Versailles, Versalhes and Bordeaux is sometimes translated as Bordéus - but in Brazil (I don't know about Portugal) we don't translate Bordeaux anymore because it would sound like the plural of the word _bordéu_ in Portuguese, which means _brothel_.

Just out of curiosity: does anyone here translate Rio de Janeiro to his or her language? I'd like to know.

As for people's names, I've seen misspelt foreign names sometimes, but not translated ones. The region where my grandparents come from was settled by German immigrants and there you find lots of Zimmerman (with one n at the end only), Loubak (instead of Loubach), and so on. I've never heard of anyone whose surname is _Carpinteiro_ ( a translation from the German Zimmermann). The flip side of it is that sometimes people have a hard time spitting out their own names, like a friend of mine whose last name is Pültzl (a sound impossible to decipher in Portuguese).


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## Outsider

Macunaíma said:


> São Paulo always loses its tilde, of course, and is sometimes spelt Sao Paolo.


I think that's just because people mistake it for an Italian name. 



Macunaíma said:


> We translate the name of all major German cities, except for Berlin (but we spell it Berlim), and some French cities as well: Marseille becomes Marselha; Versailles, Versalhes and Bordeaux is sometimes translated as Bordéus - but in Brazil (I don't know about Portugal) we don't translate Bordeaux anymore because it would sound like the plural of the word _bordéu_ in Portuguese, which means _brothel_.


The word for "brothel" is _borde*l*_, Macu (plural _bordé*i*s_). We still call the French city Bordéus in Portugal, though as a colour it is often left in French, _bordeaux_.


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## Macunaíma

Outsider said:


> The word for "brothel" is _borde*l*_, Macu (plural _bordé*i*s_).


 
(Hanging my head in shame) That's true, Outsider .

If I were Portuguese and pronounced the final* L* like an *L* (or if I had remembered the correct plural form), I wouldn't have made this faux pas. But in Brasil, bordéu and bordel are pronounced just the same way. That's a mistake we can easily make.


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## jonquiliser

alitza said:


> Hi everybody.
> In Romanian we almost never translate proper names, and we pronounce them as close to their original pronunciations as possible. There are exceptions, of course, mostly names of countries and a few city names. However, I have noticed that in other languages not only do they apply the rules of pronunciation of their own language, but even translate them.
> For instance, for Romanians New York is New York (pronounced as in English) whereas for the Spanish it's Nueva York. For us Zurich is Zurich, for the Italians is Zurigo etc.
> Hungarians, for example, even translate writers' names. For them Jules Verne is Verne Gyula, which seems rather odd to me.



As a general rule, many countries have specific names in Swedish (i.e. Swedish names, and not the name by which the country is known in that country). For example, _Romania _is _Rumänien_, _France_ is _Frankrike_, _Brasil_ is _Brasilien, Ivory Coast_ is _Elfenbenskusten_. With cities and towns it depends, some have translated names, but the vast majority don't. Usually this depends on what the historical relations have been to those places; towns more closer by or which historically have had wide importance/influence are more likely to have a 'translated' name. Same with lakes, seas etc. Mountains generally have 'adapted' names; the _Pyrénées/Pirineos _etc are _Pyrenneerna_, the _Andes _are _Anderna, _and so on. 

The pronounciation, well, that's up to others to say whether they are pronounced according to the 'original'  At least efforts are often made to enounce something that resembles  the name as pronounced in the original language 

Incidentally, kings and queens and tzars etc usually have translated names. So counting all there must have been innumerable kings known by the name of Karl (Charles)


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## Judiths

Hello: 
As many proper names can be translated into other languages above all those which are mentioned on the bible (for example Santiago in Spanish, Giacomo in Italian, James in English) I was wondering if exist at least a slightest correspondence (at least for biblical names) between proper names in all languages (especially with those like Japanese or Chinese which are less similar from Latin) What do you think?


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## Sepia

Judiths said:


> Hello:
> As many proper names can be translated into other languages above all those which are mentioned on the bible (for example Santiago in Spanish, Giacomo in Italian, James in English) I was wondering if exist at least a slightest correspondence (at least for biblical names) between proper names in all languages (especially with those like Japanese or Chinese which are less similar from Latin) What do you think?



I also find all of that very strange - the only clear rule I can make out of it is that in Spanish it is done with all names of the Royals.

But it doesn't stop there - look at what happens when the Royals marry:

A French count with the very French name "Henri" has to spend the rest of his life with the name "Henrik" - just because he married a Danish princess.


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## kinia22

translating names exists in probably all countries but I think it's not okay!


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## palomnik

It seems to me that at least in English it is a matter of whether a historical individual has entered into public consciousness in one form or another.  Most historians who have to deal with this in English will note in the prefaces to their writings that "if a standard form of a name exists in English, we have used that form", or some words to that effect.

Some writers buck the trend.  A prominent English specialist on Russian history from the early 20th century, Bernard Pares, wrote an excellent history of Russia, but insisted on referring to Ivan the Terrible as "John the Dread."  It never caught on.


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## Drechuin

kinia22 said:


> translating names exists in probably all countries but I think it's not okay!



Writing Владимир Владимирович Путин in an French (or English or Spanish) newspaper would make it very difficult to read.
Therefore translation of names are needed.
In the same way, some languages may have very different pronunciations for a same word (a word with the same spelling). Should we choose to respect the spelling of the name or its pronunciation? We can't have both.


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## Judiths

kinia22 said:


> translating names exists in probably all countries but I think it's not okay!


I agree with you, but it exists. I'm refering above all, as I said, to biblical names, so my question is if it is extended to all languages without exception and it is not like this how they write biblical names? in hebrew? but isn't it less correct since they have a different writting?


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## Fernando

"The terrible" is not exactly Russian, anyhow.

As far as I have heard, English-speaking people DO translate foreign names, specially for kings, EXCEPT Juan Carlos I.

As an example, the contemporary of Elizabeth II, Felipe II, is commonly conveyed as "Phillip II".

The reason is very simple. At least in Spain, people do not know how to pronounce the names in English (let alone German or Russian). It is very funny to see the people saying "Gwyneth Paltrow" or "Ahmadineyad (probably I have written it badly)".

The same for English people saying "Aznar" or "Zapatero".

So, I do not have any ethical problem "translating" the names and I have no problem when hearing/reading "Corunna" or "Spain".


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## Judiths

Drechuin said:


> Writing Владимир Владимирович Путин in an French (or English or Spanish) newspaper would make it very difficult to read.
> Therefore translation of names are needed.
> In the same way, some languages may have very different pronunciations for a same word (a word with the same spelling). Should we choose to respect the spelling of the name or its pronunciation? We can't have both.


Yes, this is what I wanted to say, I absolutely agree with you!


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## Sepia

Drechuin said:


> Writing Владимир Владимирович Путин in an French (or English or Spanish) newspaper would make it very difficult to read.
> Therefore translation of names are needed.
> In the same way, some languages may have very different pronunciations for a same word (a word with the same spelling). Should we choose to respect the spelling of the name or its pronunciation? We can't have both.



Although I could live with that, I am not sure I would recognize "Jackie Chan" written in Chinese.

Some just have to be transcribed in Latin letters - that is still a far step from changing them. And I think you are right - it happens everywhere but they all seem to have different norms deciding when or what. 

I can partly understand that some cultures have begun doing so in those days where you did not hear foreign names in the electronic media all the time - but in our time I find it very confusing sometimes. I took more than a decade before I realized that the guy we'd call "der heilige Franz" in Germany had anything to do with the monks that founded the mission station San Francisco in California.


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## Joannes

In Belgium we only translate the names of our own royalties. 

Le roi Baudouin was called Koning Boudewijn in the North and König Balduin in the German-speaking community, and King Albert's name is pronounced the Dutch way in Flanders (at least in the media, in the streets people just say _Albèr_ ).

Prince Philippe (Crown Prince) is written <Filip> in Flanders, but the pronunciation is only different in the stress pattern. Same for his daughter Princess Elizabeth. Seems like the court is opting for 'bilingual' names nowadays.


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## EmilyD

I only recently learned that the city now known as *Vilnius* has about 5 (or more??) names.

One of those names is:  *Vilna*.  That might be Yiddish.

Another name is:  *Wilno*. Probably misspelled--I apologize--might be Polish.

**************

I've never understood the London/Londres translation.  -i.e. yes, they represent the same city, but which name is "older"?...

Thank you all belatedly and in advance.

Fondly,
_
Nomi_


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## Outsider

EmilyD said:


> I've never understood the London/Londres translation.  -i.e. yes, they represent the same city, but which name is "older"?...


The oldest is *Londinium*.


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## Drechuin

Sepia said:


> I can partly understand that some cultures have begun doing so in those days where you did not hear foreign names in the electronic media all the time - but in our time I find it very confusing sometimes. I took more than a decade before I realized that the guy we'd call "der heilige Franz" in Germany had anything to do with the monks that founded the mission station San Francisco in California.



As you say, the origin of the translation of some names is not new. It's deeply ingrained in our languages, so it has now become an "official" translation, no matter how many electronic media we will have (people won't change from Benoit XVI to Benedetto XVI or Benedictus XVI).

But I have the baseless impression that new names are less changed (they are changed to be readable and speakable, of course, but no more).
Moreover,  some  foreign names (mainly Asian)  have changed names, to be closer to the original (for example Pékin is now called Beijing).


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## Fernando

Drechuin said:


> Moreover,  some  foreign names (mainly Asian)  have changed names, to be closer to the original (for example Pékin is now called Beijing).



At least in the Spanish reading, "Beijing" is further from the original than "Pekín" (the "traditional" one).

Beijing should be read by a Spanish-speaker as /Beijíng/ (j=English kh) and g wholly pronounced. If he knows some English he will say /Beiyín/ (Y= English j)

As far as I know pinyin (not much) and according Wiki:

b: [p] unaspirated p, as in spit 
j: like q, but unaspirated. (To get this sound, first take the sound halfway between joke and check, and then slowly pass it backwards along the tongue until it is entirely clear of the tongue tip.) While this exact sound is not used in English, the closest match is the j in ajar, not the s in Asia; this means that "Beijing" is pronounced like "bay-jing", not like "beige-ing".

So, Beijing it would be /Paiqín/ or /Peiqín/, wich I find closer to the traditional Spanish (or French) term.


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## Lugubert

I could go on for (p)ages on this subject. I got really interested when I in the sixties worked for a summer in Basle/Basel/Bâle/Basilea and found trilingual (German/French/Italian) street names everywhere.

Now that I'm in religious studies, it's often Latin and Greek names that cause problems. Most course books are in English, so it's Homer for my Swedish Homeros , Livy for Livius, Philo for Filon etc etc.

I love the confusion. For years, I wrote little slips with equivalents, like, the French town Rijssel (Dutch) = Lille (French). I even thought that one day, I'd enter all those in a spreadsheet and/or publish a book. Then arrived the Internet.

These questions easily get political. During not too many months, some Swedes thought it was politically correct to refer to the country Kampuchea. Rather soon, everybody went back to Kambodja. I still use Burma, despite the not too perfect English transcription, because I feel that the local pronunciation of Myanmar doesn't differ too much from that of Burma.

Right now, I'm sometimes trying to understand the different renderings of Chinese words including proper names. I try to stick to the traditional Swedish names where provided like Peking. It's our name for that city. Nobody else should bother about that. These days, many, not all, Chinese pronounce it more like Beijing. Again, they're not Swedes. There's now also Nanjing for old Nanking, the poet Li Bai, formerly written Li Po etc.

I accept that names change. We don't any more ever refer to our neighbour Norwegian town Trondhjem/Trondheim as Nidaros. Who growing up post-1930 can even place Constantinople on the map? Say Istanbul, and I hope that the number of correct answers will increase.

I have noticed that I at least in some settings, I prefer the more recent names of Indian cities: Chennai for Madras, Kolkata for Calcutta, Mumbai for Bombay, Pune for Poona, Darjiling for Darjeeling and many others. I'm more hesitant about Nai Dilli for New Delhi, though. It's too close to the capital of East Timor, Dili.

Gotta end there. It's late here and now.


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## vince

Fernando said:


> At least in the Spanish reading, "Beijing" is further from the original than "Pekín" (the "traditional" one).
> 
> Beijing should be read by a Spanish-speaker as /Beijíng/ (j=English kh) and g wholly pronounced. If he knows some English he will say /Beiyín/ (Y= English j)
> 
> As far as I know pinyin (not much) and according Wiki:
> 
> b: [p] unaspirated p, as in spit
> j: like q, but unaspirated. (To get this sound, first take the sound halfway between joke and check, and then slowly pass it backwards along the tongue until it is entirely clear of the tongue tip.) While this exact sound is not used in English, the closest match is the j in ajar, not the s in Asia; this means that "Beijing" is pronounced like "bay-jing", not like "beige-ing".
> 
> So, Beijing it would be /Paiqín/ or /Peiqín/, wich I find closer to the traditional Spanish (or French) term.



The closest way to write the Mandarin pronunciation of "Beijing" using Spanish spelling would be "Bechin". "Ch" is closer to Pinyin "j" than Spanish "qu" is.


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## mally pense

jmartins said:


> That rule isn't universal in Spain. In fact it is more common not to translate, for example :
> 
> Vladimir Putin (not Vladimiro)
> George Bush (not Jorge)
> Jacques Chirac (not Santiago/Diego/Jaime)
> 
> I don't know what rule applies, maybe it's only for the royalty.


 
Of course, in France, special consideration has to be given to the translation of Vladimir Putin because of the proximity in spelling and sound _(at least if spoken as written)_ to "putain", meaning "whore".

While the written form of the surname sometimes remains as Putin, it is alternatively written as Poutine, which presumably doesn't have the same unfortunate similarities. Regardless of the written form, the name is always pronounced "Poutine" - at least as far as I've encoutered it on French radio.

There may be other examples of famous names not translating too well into different languages of course.


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## Nanon

mally pense said:


> There may be other examples of famous names not translating too well into different languages of course.


 
Oh, yes... Think of the French sculptor Bourdelle. In Spanish and Portuguese, that name sounds bad...
Quoting from the Spanish Wikipedia: _Antoine Bourdelle (pronunciación aprox: "antoán burdel' ")._ 
Yet this was not found a valid reason to change the spelling of his name!... But this seldom happens with names of persons, when they are not transliterated.

About Putin / Poutine, the French spelling is an attempt to reflect the original Russian pronunciation... Eltsine, Soljenitsyne, Pouchkine, etc... also end with an e. How fortunate for Poutine!


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## palomnik

Fernando said:


> "The terrible" is not exactly Russian, anyhow.


 
Actually, Fernando, "terrible" is a pretty good translation of Russian грозный, at least at the time that the word was translated. "Terrible" originally meant "striking terror", and its meaning has been debased, the same as "awful" and "awesome" in English.

But that's material for another thread. To get back on subject, there is a considerable difference between translating the names of royalty or having native names for neighboring countries, and the practice in many countries of requesting that foreigners use their native names, as in such cases as Beijing, Myanmar, Chennai, etc. The practice, as far as I know, started under Ataturk's government, when he requested that the world say Istanbul instead of Constantinople, and at about the same time when Reza Khan wanted the world to say Iran instead of Persia. As good members of the world community, we generally follow suit, but it really makes no more sense than if the German government asked everybody to call their country Deutschland instead of Germany. I think even Germans would find that a bit silly.


----------



## Fernando

palomnik said:


> Actually, Fernando, "terrible" is a pretty good translation of Russian грозный, at least at the time that the word was translated. "Terrible" originally meant "striking terror", and its meaning has been debased, the same as "awful" and "awesome" in English.



I meant that English-speaking world is not simply transliterating (Ivan Grozny or Vasilievich) but translating (Ivan the Terrible). 

Edit: In Spanish the name is the same "Iván el Terrible" (Iván is a not-so-uncommon name in Spain, so it is not conveyed as "Juan" (John) but with the translteration, accenting the name with Spanish general rules). "Terrible" in Spanish" means "violent, who inspires terror/fear", I assume the same in (old) English.

I totally agree with you in the general principle. On my part, I hereby renounce the obligation to say "España" instead of Espagne/Spanien/Spagna/Spanien...

...even I would be delighted to see the tries to pronounce it.


----------



## Einstein

A comment about "Beijing" and other Chinese names.
This spelling dates from the late 1970s, when the Chinese government, tired of seeing every nation spelling Chinese names in its own way, decided to establish a standard international spelling in the Latin alphabet.
Although this contained some very strange phonetics (for example the "ch" sound is now represented by a "q"), it was adopted by the English-speaking countries, who were used to illogical spellings in their own language. _Mao Tse-Tung_ became _Mao Zedong_, _Teng Hsiao-Ping_ became _Deng Xiaoping_ and so on.
I don't know if any other countries adopted the system, but it had no success in Italy. Very few Italians would recognise Beijing as the capital of China and even less would they know how to pronounce it. Older names, written with English phonetics, are simply pronounced _all'italiana_: Hong Kong is pronounced without the H and with the final G separate from the N.

The point here is that _Beijing_ and _Nanjing_ are not changes of name, but an attempt to establish an international standard for the existing ones. But if Europeans do not even learn the phonetics of each other's languages, why expect them to do it with Chinese? This is why the attempt failed.


----------



## Outsider

I like Pinyin. I think it's a clever application of the Latin alphabet (and much more orderly than English orthography!) The phonetic value of Pinyin "q" is an aspirated voiceless alveolo-palatal affricate, a sound not found in most European languages. However, it does probably resemble a "ksh" sound somewhat.


----------



## Fernando

Outsider said:


> (and much more orderly than English orthography!)



Not very difficult. 



Outsider said:


> The phonetic value of Pinyin "q" is an



Do you mean the value of written "j" (Beiking") or phonetic /q/, written "j"?


----------



## Outsider

I meant the value of written "q", which I believe is what Einstein alluded to.


----------



## Fernando

Thank you. I did not notice. My fault.


----------



## SerinusCanaria3075

In some languages, it can be odd that what is considered to be a _female_ name is given to a _male_ person.
Italian: Andrea
Spanish: Andrés
Since Italian names usually don't end with -*s*, it sometimes sounds weird to hear Gonzales, Martinez or Rodriguez in Italian.
Ignazio, Luigi, Paolo, Carlo, Giani, Cesare, Letizia, Margherita...
Ignacio, Lui*s*, Pablo, Carlo*s*, Juan, César, Leticia, Margarita...


----------



## Drechuin

SerinusCanaria3075 said:


> In some languages, it can be odd that what is considered to be a _female_ name is given to a _male_ person.



It also happens between the male French _Jean_ (i.e. John) and the  female English _Jean_.
At least, the pronounciation is very different.


----------



## mally pense

There's no need for confusion here though. Most English people in my experience recognise the French "Jean" as just that, the FRENCH "Jean", and will not even make a connection with the English "Jean".


----------



## stanley

TonioMiguel said:


> I've noticed in the US and in Mexico that many folks just try to pronounce names as well as they can. Like the golfer Sergio is pronounced Ser-gee-oh. Rather than the proper Ser-hee-o (Spanish). To me, failing to try to pronounce ones last name is quite disappointing. Especially in the US which has always seemed to frown upon people with foreign names. I noticed that foreign names recently are on the rise rather than people taking Americanized names.
> 
> As my profile name TonioMiguel I am very much translating my name in Spanish. I am Anthony Michael but I have grown fond of my Mexican nickname. In Mexico, many people thought it was strange that I went by my Mexican translated name. Movies in Mexico tend to speak the actor names with the best English accent they can. Oddly I do not allow Americans to call me Tony but I love the nickname Tonio or Toño as they say in Mexico.
> 
> As for names, I know not until recently if there was an English equivilent name it was spoken. Like if somebody was Jorge he would be automatically called George. Yet, now it seems that multicultural names are on a boom. This can be easily seen by the rise of African names being used by the African American community and other cultures in general.
> 
> I for one would love to see us call Spain España rather than butchering it with a word that really doesn't sound anything like its original. Same for Deutschland instead Germany since to them they are Deutch not German. Yet, English tends to take after its partial Latin parents by calling everything under a conquered name or Englishized name.


Well, in Germany we call Spain - Spanien. So it's pretty much the same. But I don't have a problem with Americans using German instead of Deutsch and Germany instead of Deutschland, because the people of Germany are called "Germanen" ( Engl. Germans ). So where's the Problem. Venice is called Venedig and there are many more expressions like Milano which the germans call Mailand.


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## federicoft

In Italian we translate pretty all country names (except those whose name sounds Italian enough, e.g. 'Argentina') and large or somewhat important European cities (some exceptions being Oslo, Helsinki and Madrid), I believe mainly due to historical reasons. There are some weird translation, for example the Polish city of Wroclaw in Italian is called Breslavia; the Greek city of Thessaloniki is called Salonicco.

Usually we translate also geographical names (such as Rocky Mountains that become 'Montagne Rocciose').


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## Nanon

Macunaíma said:


> Just out of curiosity: does anyone here translate Rio de Janeiro to his or her language? I'd like to know.



Not Rio, Macu. But Cape Town is often translated (FR: _Le Cap_).
_La Nouvelle Delhi_ is less frequent than New Delhi in French.


----------



## fenixpollo

Macunaíma said:


> Just out of curiosity: does anyone here translate Rio de Janeiro to his or her language? I'd like to know.


 Rio de Janeiro is a noun in my language, so... no, I do not need to translate it into my language.


----------



## Outsider

fenixpollo said:


> Rio de Janeiro is a noun in my language [...]


Semantics. I think it's pretty clear that Macunaíma's question was about whether the name had been changed by other languages as they borrowed it from Portuguese. English hasn't changed the spelling, though of course the pronunciation is another story.


----------



## pericales

I know this discussion dates from ages ago but... I just wanted to say that there is a cultural reason behind all this argument.

When a Christian is proclamed a Saint, he/she becomes a universal property, and so does his/her name. So, if you want to name somebody out of Teresa de Ávila, you will name her Theresa (English), Thérèse (French), etc. You will not name an Englishman called Peter: Petrus (the Latin name for Peter), or even Keyfas (his original name in Aramaic), you will call him Peter.

Translation of Catholic names is a perfectly documented tradition, and it's a must.


----------



## MarX

Drechuin said:


> Writing Владимир Владимирович Путин in an French (or English or Spanish) newspaper would make it very difficult to read.
> Therefore translation of names are needed.
> In the same way, some languages may have very different pronunciations for a same word (a word with the same spelling). Should we choose to respect the spelling of the name or its pronunciation? We can't have both.


Yes, but in some cases, like replacing William with Guillermo, it can be totally confusing. If my name were William, I would feel alienated having my name written as Guillermo.

And replacing Elizabeth with Isabel is quite ridiculous because:
1. In English both names exist separately
2. Most Spaniards won't have any problem pronouncing Elizabeth, even if it is in a Spanish way.


----------



## Outsider

MarX said:


> Yes, but in some cases, like replacing William with Guillermo, it can be totally confusing. If my name were William, I would feel alienated having my name written as Guillermo.


It's not confuding at all when you're used to it. I bet most Spanish speakers would be more confused if you mentioned "William of Orange" to them.



MarX said:


> And replacing Elizabeth with Isabel is quite ridiculous because:
> 1. In English both names exist separately
> 2. Most Spaniards won't have any problem pronouncing Elizabeth, even if it is in a Spanish way.


But the two words are cognates, and in Spanish there is only one. "Elizabeth" is not Spanish.


----------



## mal67

> But the two words are cognates, and in Spanish there is only one. "Elizabeth" is not Spanish.



I don't buy that argument.  Michael and Miguel are both cognates from the biblical Hebrew, but I don't like to be called "Miguel" when I'm speaking Spanish; and Spanish-speakers are capable of pronouncing "Michael" just fine (well, ok, the vowels are usually off, but still).  Likewise, I'm not going to call my mother-in-law "Mary Beth" or something of that sort.

Of course, since I'm not royalty, I don't have to worry about it -- as it seems that Spanish generally translates only the names of European royalty.


----------



## Viperski

Here are some examples of translation into Polish for european well know cities:
Bremmen - _Brema_
Basel - _Bazylea_
Munich - _Monachium_
Milano - _Mediolan_
Roma - _Rzym_
Those are used since medieval time.


----------



## Einstein

Interesting!
Brema is the same as the Italian;
Basel in Italian is Basilea;
Monachium must surely be Latin;
Mediolanum is definitely the Latin name for Milan.

A strange case is the adoption in English of the Italian names _Vienna_ and _Austria_.


----------



## Viperski

Einstein said:


> Interesting!
> Brema is the same as the Italian;
> Basel in Italian is Basilea;
> Monachium must surely be Latin;
> Mediolanum is definitely the Latin name for Milan.
> 
> A strange case is the adoption in English of the Italian names _Vienna_ and _Austria_.


I think adoption is made when in certain lenguage it's difficult to pronaunce its original name. Munik (with u omlaut) is more difficult then Monachium (Latin version). Some very old european towns names were changed hundreds years ago a little bit "closer" to polish lenguage, especially those cities of which medieval Poles kept close contacts to (mostly universities or art centries):
_Padwa _- Padova
_Bolonia _- Bologne
We call Vienna - _Wiedeń_
Before University in Kraków (Cracovia) was created (1364) Padova and Bologne were "the most popular" (becouse they were the best at that time).


----------



## Outsider

Einstein said:


> A strange case is the adoption in English of the Italian names _Vienna_ and _Austria_.


Or possibly the Latin names.


----------



## Viperski

Outsider said:


> Or possibly the Latin names.


Vienna started in history as Vindebona - roman legion campus


----------



## Outsider

But what was it called in medieval Latin?


----------



## Viperski

Vindobona in Latin


----------



## Outsider

Then I guess English must have got it from Italian. A little odd, since Italian was not commonly spoken in Austria...


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## alexacohen

MarX said:


> And replacing Elizabeth with Isabel is quite ridiculous because:
> 1. In English both names exist separately
> 2. Most Spaniards won't have any problem pronouncing Elizabeth, even if it is in a Spanish way.


Maybe. 
I have heard many times people saying king "Yuan", which to Spanish ears sounds like the name of a Chinese restaurant.
Lady Di, which was kept exactly as is written in English, ended up here as "ladidí", commonly used for female dogs. 
Better translated than ridiculous.
Seville, Canary Islands, Majorca, Saint Jacques de Compostelle...
It runs both ways.


----------



## MarX

alexacohen said:


> Maybe.
> I have heard many times people saying king "Yuan", which to Spanish ears sounds like the name of a Chinese restaurant.
> Lady Di, which was kept exactly as is written in English, ended up here as "ladidí", commonly used for female dogs.
> Better translated than ridiculous.
> Seville, Canary Islands, Majorca, Saint Jacques de Compostelle...
> It runs both ways.


At least in the case of *Elizabeth* it doesn't sound ridiculous at all pronouncing it as _Elithabet_.
If the name *Isabel* didn't exist in English it would be less weird translating *Elizabeth*.
Imagine two noble English ladies, one named *Elizabeth*, the other *Isabel*, end up having the same name in Spanish.


----------



## MarX

mal67 said:


> I don't buy that argument. Michael and Miguel are both cognates from the biblical Hebrew, but I don't like to be called "Miguel" when I'm speaking Spanish; and Spanish-speakers are capable of pronouncing "Michael" just fine (well, ok, the vowels are usually off, but still). Likewise, I'm not going to call my mother-in-law "Mary Beth" or something of that sort.


What is your mother-in-law's real name then?
*Maribel* (following the comparison *Elizabeth* ---> *Isabel*)?


----------



## Outsider

Will Spanish now also have to invent separate names for:

Eli*s*abeth
Eliza
Elyse
Bessie
Beth
Betsy
Betty
Isobel
Lisa
Liz
Liza
Lizzy
Lyse​...just because English did?

This name came up earlier in the thread.


----------



## alexacohen

MarX said:


> At least in the case of *Elizabeth* it doesn't sound ridiculous at all pronouncing it as _Elithabet_.


For most Spaniards I know, Queen Elizabeth II is a ship and not a queen...


----------



## MarX

Outsider said:


> Will Spanish now also have to invent separate names for:
> 
> Eli*s*abeth​Eliza​Elyse​Bessie​Beth​Betsy​Betty​Isobel​Lisa​Liz​Liza​Lizzy​Lyse​...just because English did?
> 
> This name came up earlier in the thread.


Yes. Don't you think it's unfair for them to be thrown into *Isabel* in Spanish? They are _individuals_ for God's sake! Their parents deliberately named them the way they are. *Beth* is not the same as *Liza* nor *Isabel*.
Name is not just a name. It contains much more meaning than that.


----------



## Outsider

Shakespeare might disagree with you.


----------



## MarX

I personally just try to respect people's names, because they have their peculiar individual backgrounds and meanings.

The different names are a result of centuries of development, in which a single name perhaps split into variations which today should be recognized as such, because each has its own history and reasons behind its emergence.

Perhaps in the time of Shakespeare they were variations of the same name, but we should not be oblivious to today's situation.


----------



## Nanon

mal67 said:


> I don't buy that argument.  Michael and Miguel are both cognates from the biblical Hebrew, but I don't like to be called "Miguel" when I'm speaking Spanish; and Spanish-speakers are capable of pronouncing "Michael" just fine (well, ok, the vowels are usually off, but still).  Likewise, I'm not going to call my mother-in-law "Mary Beth" or something of that sort.
> 
> Of course, since I'm not royalty, I don't have to worry about it -- as it seems that Spanish generally translates only the names of European royalty.



Well, I'm not royalty either, but I'm used to having my name translated and I don't really mind. In fact I basically have two versions of my name, Anne / Ana. Both forms are used in my family according to who is speaking: French speakers or Spanish speakers. I did not choose this (the only choice was the choice of the name and it was obviously not mine but my parents'), but the habit got crystallised and I just got used to it. Probably the monosyllabic French version sounds too short and harsh to the Spanish-speaking part of my family.

But my name is translated in other languages too. Anne works pretty well in English, so who knows whether it is translated or not? The Russian version of my name, Анна / Anna, is used by my Russian friends and contacts. It probably sounds more natural to them. And in Brazil I am called Anne but it is pronounced with a _ ending. This is because I often travel to Brazil on business, with my French travel documents and my French visit card, otherwise the form Ana could as well have been adopted in Portuguese.

I do not disagree with having my name translated. But again, this is because I am already used to it, because my name is short, and because it exists in many languages. This has to do only with me. I know other persons who consider that the form of the name, and not only the name itself, has to do with one's own integrity. 

However I, like everybody, have limits. I can feel "identified" with the above forms. But when I heard my name pronounced with a strong nasal twang in English-US, I did not feel the same - or at least, not at once. After all, I'm not royalty. Only kings and queens need to be universal..._


----------



## Outsider

Here's an interesting neighbour thread, All Slavic languages: Foreign females name - gender transformation.


----------



## DiabloScott

Drechuin said:


> Writing (Vladymir Vladimirovich Putin) in an French (or English or Spanish) newspaper would make it very difficult to read.
> Therefore translation of names are needed.


 
That's simply transliteration; an interesting but different topic. 

Another interesting example is declination of female names: Anna Karenin or Anna Karenina? When she says her name it is Karenina but English doesn't use noun declination and some would contend her name should be Karenin.

Mathematicians familiar with Russian sometimes argue this concerning the Cauchy-Kovalevskaya (or Kovalevsky) Theorem.


----------



## mal67

Outsider said:


> Will Spanish now also have to invent separate names for:Eli*s*abeth
> Eliza
> Elyse
> Bessie
> Beth...​


Why not just use the names as they are, without translation?  

In fact, this may already be happening (?): I seem to remember a finalist on Operación Triunfo a few years ago who was called *Beth*.  I was surprised to hear that name used in Spain, though I'm not sure if it was a nickname or was the contestant's real given name.


----------



## pickypuck

mal67 said:


> In fact, this may already be happening (?): I seem to remember a finalist on Operación Triunfo a few years ago who was called *Beth*. I was surprised to hear that name used in Spain, though I'm not sure if it was a nickname or was the contestant's real given name.


 
Her real name is Elisabeth. It's not so surprising, since you can find any name in Spain nowadays. One of my mates at school was called Elisabeth too (or Elisabet without the h, I can't remember, many years have passed since I attended school). Many times it depends on trends. Kevin became a very popular name here, maybe because of "The Wonder Years" (Aquellos maravillosos años) series.

This has nothing to do with the tradition of translating into Spanish or the other languages of Spain the names of the royals.

Regards.


----------



## Fernando

You have two options:

1) Translate them as "Isabel" or

2) Hear YOUR name mispronounced as 

Elisabeth   /Elísabet/ 
Eliza         /Elíza/ or /Elísa/
Elyse No idea ¿ilais? ¿elís? ¿elis?
Bessie /besi/
Beth /bez/ or /bet/
Betsy /Betsi/ I assume
Betty betti (I think quite similar to English)
Isobel ¿isobel? ¿aisobel?
Lisa  ¿lisa? ¿laisa?
Liz  ¿lis?
Liza  ¿lisa? ¿laisa?
Lizzy  ¿lisi?
Lyse   ¿¿¿lais????

Note the pronunciation is not API.
z=English th as in thunder
Spanish vowels are always long.


----------



## Nanon

Fernando said:


> Liza ¿lisa? ¿laisa?


 
This reminds me that Liza Minnelli used to sing a song about her name, which was always misspelled or mispronounced...


----------



## ByteofKnowledge

Reminds me of my time in Bavaria, where I worked in McDonald's. I had them put "MAIKL" on my name badge instead of "MICHAEL" because otherwise people would call me "Mi-ha-el" or "Mi-sha-el" depending on their German accent, and that isn't my name. A name is something you are CALLED, it is VOCAL. So I like transliterating names into another language if necessary. From Russian to a Latin script is of course necessary. But why not do the same within Latin alphabet languages? Peter Schmeichel as Peter Shmikel in English and Szmajkel in Polish?


----------



## MarX

Fernando said:


> You have two options:
> 
> 1) Translate them as "Isabel" or
> 
> 2) Hear YOUR name mispronounced as
> 
> Elisabeth /Elísabet/
> Eliza /Elíza/ or /Elísa/
> Elyse No idea ¿ilais? ¿elís? ¿elis?
> Bessie /besi/
> Beth /bez/ or /bet/
> Betsy /Betsi/ I assume
> Betty betti (I think quite similar to English)
> Isobel ¿isobel? ¿aisobel?
> Lisa ¿lisa? ¿laisa?
> Liz ¿lis?
> Liza ¿lisa? ¿laisa?
> Lizzy ¿lisi?
> Lyse ¿¿¿lais????
> 
> Note the pronunciation is not API.
> z=English th as in thunder
> Spanish vowels are always long.


 
You just need to tell them how the name is pronounced.
The Spaniards are not that stupid that they couldn't pronounce things right. Or at least approximately.

If my name were *Eliza*, I'd rather have it pronounced as _Elitha_ than have it mutated into *Isabel* which not only sounds/looks totally different from my real name, but other people actually have that as their real name.


----------



## kardorion

In Turkish we nearly never translate names unless they have some ancient equivalents.
We always translate Alexander (İskender) and as stated above, biblical names.
Jesus - İsa, 
Mary - Meryem
John the Evangelist - Yuhanna
John the Baptist - Yahya
Abraham - İbrahim etc.
For Peter, Paul, Mark, Luke we use the Latin names (Petrus, Pavlus, Marcus, Luca).
As far as I know, the Turkish translations are usually closer to the originals than English and Latin languages. 
Otherwise, we never translate modern names or names of kings and queens etc..
So for us Elisabeth is Elisabeth (you might see it written Elizabet so that it's easy to read) and Isabel is Isabel, Charles is Charles etc.

I just thougt of one more translation:
Charlemagne - Şarlamanj or Şarlman (we actually just write it as we read it, that's all)

The Latin alphabet was chosen in The Republic of Turkey in 1928, therefore in Turkish we still read as we write (can't remember what you called these kinds of languages). There are still discussions about whether we should write these foreign names as we read them, or not. In press you always see the original versions of names (except for the ones I stated above).


----------



## MarX

kardorion said:


> In Turkish we nearly never translate names unless they have some ancient equivalents.
> We always translate Alexander (İskender) and as stated above, biblical names.
> Jesus - İsa,
> Mary - Meryem
> John the Evangelist - Yuhanna
> John the Baptist - Yahya
> Abraham - İbrahim etc.
> For Peter, Paul, Mark, Luke we use the Latin names (Petrus, Pavlus, Marcus, Luca).
> As far as I know, the Turkish translations are usually closer to the originals than English and Latin languages.
> Otherwise, we never translate modern names or names of kings and queens etc..
> So for us Elisabeth is Elisabeth (you might see it written Elizabet so that it's easy to read) and Isabel is Isabel, Charles is Charles etc.
> 
> I just thougt of one more translation:
> Charlemagne - Şarlamanj or Şarlman (we actually just write it as we read it, that's all)
> 
> The Latin alphabet was chosen in The Republic of Turkey in 1928, therefore in Turkish we still read as we write (can't remember what you called these kinds of languages). There are still discussions about whether we should write these foreign names as we read them, or not. In press you always see the original versions of names (except for the ones I stated above).


 
In Indonesian we also have the names you mentioned, but if there is a person living today named *John* or *Mary*, we don't change their name. In fact, the other versions of the name are mostly used only in the Bible, and in Indonesia there are individuals named *Maria* and some others *Miryam*, just as there are ones named *Yohanes*, others *Yan*, others *Yahya*. But they are of course not interchangeable.
But I think the original question goes to Spanish speaking countries. So we probably should stop talking about other countries. 

Cheers!


MarK


----------



## symposium

Viperski said:


> Vindobona in Latin


"Vienna" in "modern Latin" (i.e. Church Latin). I saw a recent thread where they asked why "Rossyia" is "Russia" in English; I suppose many English names for countries and cities come from post-classical Latin, like Russia, Vienna and Austria.
In Italian we traditionally translate foreign sovereigns' and royals' names, so we have Regina Elisabetta, Principe Carlo e Principessa Diana (pr. Dee-anah), but that has been dwindling lately. William and Kate are just "William e Kate", and the King and Queen of Spain are just "Felipe e Letizia" (Letizia is an Italian name, too, by the way). I wonder if William becomes King, will they call him Re Guglielmo or Re William? I believe they'll change it to Re Guglielmo, but I have a feeling they'll keep calling the by-then Queen "Regina Kate"...


----------



## Penyafort

It seems to me that the original question in this thread hasn't been properly answered yet, or I haven't seen it.

The reason behind is simple. The name is that of a European royal or a pope, so in Spanish it must be translated.

For example, Kate Middleton was Kate Middleton before her marriage. After being married to prince William (el príncipe Guillermo), she is called Catalina, duquesa de Cambridge. And their children are Jorge, Carlota and Luis. (We do the same in Catalan: Guillem, Caterina, Jordi, Carlota, Lluis de Cambridge)

English and many other languages do the same with popes. El papa Francisco is called Pope Francis in English, Pape François in French, etc.


----------



## Angelo di fuoco

Setwale_Charm said:


> I think, Ivory Coast is translated in most languages (correct me if I am wrong), Archangel in the north of Russia is usually trsnlated. For most part, I think, names are not translated. Buenos Aires, Koebenhavn, Krasnodar primarily come to mind. However!! If there is a river involved: Rostov-on-Don, Stoke-on-Trent, Frankfurt-am-Main is definitely translated in Russian and Latvian.



In Russian, the name of the northern city is actually Архангельск, not *Архангел (which is, well Archangel). So you should spell it Arkhangelsk (but who knows how you will butcher "kh", since most English natives don't know how to correctly pronounce this name).



mally pense said:


> Of course, in France, special consideration has to be given to the translation of Vladimir Putin because of the proximity in spelling and sound _(at least if spoken as written)_ to "putain", meaning "whore".
> 
> While the written form of the surname sometimes remains as Putin, it is alternatively written as Poutine, which presumably doesn't have the same unfortunate similarities. Regardless of the written form, the name is always pronounced "Poutine" - at least as far as I've encoutered it on French radio.
> 
> There may be other examples of famous names not translating too well into different languages of course.



The French were not particularly "considerate" when translating/transliterating Putin's name. They just did it accordingly to all the rules. Fortunately for him, his name (except maybe the patronymic and the correct stress) is easy to render in French.
However, by correctly transliterating Putin's family name as "Poutine", his name became a homophone to what is probably the most famous (one and only famous?) Canadian dish: la poutine.



Fernando said:


> I meant that English-speaking world is not simply transliterating (Ivan Grozny or Vasilievich) but translating (Ivan the Terrible).
> 
> Edit: In Spanish the name is the same "Iván el Terrible" (Iván is a not-so-uncommon name in Spain, so it is not conveyed as "Juan" (John) but with the translteration, accenting the name with Spanish general rules). "Terrible" in Spanish" means "violent, who inspires terror/fear", I assume the same in (old) English.
> 
> I totally agree with you in the general principle. On my part, I hereby renounce the obligation to say "España" instead of Espagne/Spanien/Spagna/Spanien...
> 
> ...even I would be delighted to see the tries to pronounce it.



With Ivan the Terrible, the Spanish speakers were actually one of the few who put the stress on the correct syllable, because the name is stressed on the last syllable both in Russian and Spanish.
What falls flat when translating his epithet, which is Terrible (or "der Schreckliche), usually is the etymology: the adjective грозный (grozny) comes from гроза (grozá), which means "tempest" or something of sorts.



Einstein said:


> A comment about "Beijing" and other Chinese names.
> This spelling dates from the late 1970s, when the Chinese government, tired of seeing every nation spelling Chinese names in its own way, decided to establish a standard international spelling in the Latin alphabet.
> Although this contained some very strange phonetics (for example the "ch" sound is now represented by a "q"), it was adopted by the English-speaking countries, who were used to illogical spellings in their own language. _Mao Tse-Tung_ became _Mao Zedong_, _Teng Hsiao-Ping_ became _Deng Xiaoping_ and so on.
> I don't know if any other countries adopted the system, but it had no success in Italy. Very few Italians would recognise Beijing as the capital of China and even less would they know how to pronounce it. Older names, written with English phonetics, are simply pronounced _all'italiana_: Hong Kong is pronounced without the H and with the final G separate from the N.
> 
> The point here is that _Beijing_ and _Nanjing_ are not changes of name, but an attempt to establish an international standard for the existing ones. But if Europeans do not even learn the phonetics of each other's languages, why expect them to do it with Chinese? This is why the attempt failed.



Beijing is actually an updated form of Peking. The city's name used to be pronounced that way in the past. Same goes for Nanjing. However, many if not most Chinese are unaware of this: Chinese spelling renders Chinese pronunciation with imperfections and thus many may not realise that even a relatively static language cannot escape Fate..
When Mao Tse-Tung became "Mao Zedong", it was just the English-based dominant system (Wade-Giles) was substituted with something more novel.


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## AutumnOwl

Penyafort said:


> It seems to me that the original question in this thread hasn't been properly answered yet, or I haven't seen it.
> 
> The reason behind is simple. The name is that of a European royal or a pope, so in Spanish it must be translated.
> 
> For example, Kate Middleton was Kate Middleton before her marriage. After being married to prince William (el príncipe Guillermo), she is called Catalina, duquesa de Cambridge. And their children are Jorge, Carlota and Luis. (We do the same in Catalan: Guillem, Caterina, Jordi, Carlota, Lluis de Cambridge)
> 
> English and many other languages do the same with popes. El papa Francisco is called Pope Francis in English, Pape François in French, etc.


In Sweden the tradition of changing foreign royal names into the Swedish equivalent disappeared for those marrying into the Swedish royal family in 1923, when Lady Louise Mountbatten became Kronprinsessan Louise, and not renamed Lovisa.

When it came to foreign royals, the shift to keep their names in their own language seems to have happened around 1950, the Danish King Frederik 9 (became king in 1947) was known as Fredrik in Swedish, while Baudouin of Belgium (king 1951) kept the French spelling of his name, as well as the name of the British Queen Elizabeth II is spelled as it is in English, instead of the Swedish Elisabet. 
Today, no one here would think of change the names of Willem-Alexander (Netherlands), Guillaume (Luxembourg), or William (Cambridge) to Vilhelm.

For popes, the tradition has been that their name in Latin has been used with some exceptions, such as the letter "J" is used instead of the Latin "I" in Johannes instead of Iohannes, and "k" instead of "c" sometimes.
Lista över påvar – Wikipedia
The present pope is known as Franciskus in Sweden.

That ordinary people when speaking about Petrus (Peter) and Paulus (Paul) might have called them Pär and Pål is another story.


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## apmoy70

In Greek the situation is a bit arbitrary. In earlier times, personal names were usually "Hellenised" not translated per se. So, we have historically, Δαρεῖος (Darius) for Dārayavaʰuš, Ξέρξης (Χerxes) for Xšayār̥šā, Nαβουχοδονόσωρ (Νebuchadnezzar) for Nabû-kudurri-uṣur, Ὀκταβιανός Αὔγουστος (Octavius Augustus), Ἰούλιος Καῖσαρ (Julius Ceasar), Μᾶρκος Ἀντώνιος (Mark Antony), Λούκιος Ταρκύνιος (Lucius Tarquinius), Τορκουεμάδας (Torquemada), Πεπῖνος ὁ Βραχύς (Pepin the Short), Μωάμεθ ὁ Πορθητής (Mehmed the Conqueror), Φερδινάνδος καὶ Ἰσαβέλλα (Ferdinand and Isabella), Χριστόφορος Κολόμβος (Christopher Columbus), Βενιαμίν Φραγκλίνος (Benjamin Franklin), Ἰσαάκ Νεύτων (Isaac Newton), etc.
Lately (as of the last 30 or 40 years), foreign names are left as they are, and the spelling is as simple and as phonetic/phonemic as possible (we avoid Hellenising names anymore); so, the French President Emmanuel Macron is simply transliterated as Εμμανουέλ Μακρόν, and not Hellenised to Ἐμμανουήλ Μακρόνιος (as he would have been 100-150 years ago), the name of the POTUS (incumbent) is Τζο Μπάιντεν, and not Ἰωσήφ Βάιδεν, Czar Vlad is mostly Βλαντιμίρ Πούτιν and occasionally Βλαδίμηρος Πούτιν. 

For toponymics, the situation is equally complicated. Names of places made known at an earlier stage of the language, were Hellenised and followed the rules of declension of the Greek language: Paris was Παρίσιοι (masc. nom. pl.) and was declined accordingly=nom: οἱ Παρίσιοι, gen: τῶν Παρισίων, dat: τοῖς Παρισίοις, acc: τούς Παρισίους, London was Λονδίνον (neut. nom. sing.)= nom: τὸ Λονδίνον, gen: τοῦ Λονδίνου, dat: τῷ Λονδίνῳ, acc: τὸ Λονδίνον, Stockholm was Στοκχόλμη (fem. nom. sing.)=nom: ἡ Στοκχόλμη, gen: τῆς Στοκχόλμης, dat: τῇ Στοκχόλμῃ, acc: τήν Στοκχόλμην, Μanchester was Μαγχεστρία (fem. nom. sing.)=nom: ἡ Μαγχεστρία, gen: τῆς Μαγχεστρίας, dat: τῇ Μαγχεστρίᾳ, acc: τήν Μαγχεστρίαν, Tübingen (with the widely acclaimed university) was Τυβίγγη (fem. nom. sing.)=nom: ἡ Τυβίγγη, gen: τῆς Τυβίγγης, dat: τῇ Τυβίγγῃ, acc: τήν Τυβίγγην, Washington was Βασιγκτώνη (fem. nom. sing.)=nom: ἡ Βασιγκτώνη, gen: τῆς Βασιγκτώνης, dat: τῇ Βασιγκτώνῃ, acc: τήν Βασιγκτώνην, New York was Nέα Ὑόρκη (fem. nom. sing.)=nom: ἡ Νέα Ὑόρκη, gen: τῆς Νέας Ὑόρκης, dat: τῇ Νέᾳ Ὑόρκῃ, acc: τήν Νέαν Ὑόρκην, etc. 
Nowadays, place-names are transcribed as simple as possible (with the exception of standardised names, the Katharevousian Λονδίνον stubbornly remains Λονδίνο, as do Νέα Υόρκη, Στοκχόλμη) and former archaisms are now similar phonetically and phonemically to the original (Μαγχεστρία is now Μάντσεστερ, Τυβίγγη is Τύμπιγκεν, Nέα Ἰερσέη is Nιού Τζέρσεϊ).


Angelo di fuoco said:


> In Russian, the name of the northern city is actually Архангельск, not *Архангел (which is, well Archangel). So you should spell it Arkhangelsk (but who knows how you will butcher "kh", since most English natives don't know how to correctly pronounce this name)..


We call it Αρχάγγελος which is the Greek tranlation of the Russian name (Archangel).


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## Angelo di fuoco

As I said, the Russian name is not *Архангел (архангел Михаил, e. g.), but Архангельск. So the Greek name is not an exact translation, which probably would be Αρχαγγελοὐπολις.


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## apmoy70

Angelo di fuoco said:


> As I said, the Russian name is not *Архангел (архангел Михаил, e. g.), but Архангельск. So the Greek name is not an exact translation, which probably would be Αρχαγγελοὐπολις.


I get it, but we still prefer calling it Αρχάγγελος 

Edit: How could in my previous post forget about Amsterdam and Rio de Janeiro! The former in Katharevousa Greek was Ἀμστελόδαμον (neut. nom. sing.)= nom: τὸ Ἀμστελόδαμον, gen: τοῦ Ἀμστελοδάμου, dat: τῷ Ἀμστελοδάμῳ, acc: τὸ Ἀμστελόδαμον, while the latter was Ρῖον Ἰανέιρον (neut. nom sing. indeclinable).


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## Angelo di fuoco

You can call it as you like, just don't call it a translation, because it is not: it's an adaptation. Anyway, Wiki gives *Αρχάγγελσκ* as well.


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## Penyafort

I remember seeing the names of some major authors translated into Spanish: Guillermo Shakespeare, Carlos Dickens, Julio Verne, León Tolstoi, Renato Descartes, Juan Boccaccio, Carlota Bronte, Sigmundo Freud... Fortunately this has disappeared for the most part, and you'll see Fiódor Dostoyevski, not Federico. However, a few like Julio Verne are too ingrained in the Spanish traditiion now. While in Catalan I hear both Juli Verne and Jules Verne, I've never heard anyone say Jules Verne in Spanish, only Julio.


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## Angelo di fuoco

Penyafort said:


> Fiódor Dostoyevski, not Federico


If you translate it, it ought to be Teodoro.


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## apmoy70

Penyafort said:


> I remember seeing the names of some major authors translated into Spanish: Guillermo Shakespeare, Carlos Dickens, Julio Verne, León Tolstoi, Renato Descartes, Juan Boccaccio, Carlota Bronte, Sigmundo Freud... Fortunately this has disappeared for the most part, and you'll see Fiódor Dostoyevski, not Federico. However, a few like Julio Verne are too ingrained in the Spanish traditiion now. While in Catalan I hear both Juli Verne and Jules Verne, I've never heard anyone say Jules Verne in Spanish, only Julio.


Some of these names have been shaped in Katharevousa Greek, and inherited and standardised in the post-1976 Standard MoGr, and would sound awkward if one tried to change the spelling into a more phonetic/phonemic one: Κάρολος Ντίκενς, Καρτέσιος (Descartes aka Renatus Cartesius), Mιχαήλ Θερβάντες (Miguel de Cervantes), Ιούλιος Βερν, Λέων Τολστόι, Λόρδος Βύρων (Lord Byron), Αδόλφος Χίτλερ, Φραγκλίνος Ρούζβελτ, Ιωσήφ Στάλιν, Ναπολέων Βοναπάρτης (among others). But, Έμιλυ Μπροντέ, Σαρλότ Μπροντέ, Φιοντόρ Ντοστογιέφσκι, Βόλφγκαγκ Αμαντέους Μότσαρτ, Λούντβιχ βαν Μπετόβεν.


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## Terio

Einstein said:


> A comment about "Beijing" and other Chinese names.
> This spelling dates from the late 1970s, when the Chinese government, tired of seeing every nation spelling Chinese names in its own way, decided to establish a standard international spelling in the Latin alphabet.
> Although this contained some very strange phonetics (for example the "ch" sound is now represented by a "q"), it was adopted by the English-speaking countries, who were used to illogical spellings in their own language. _Mao Tse-Tung_ became _Mao Zedong_, _Teng Hsiao-Ping_ became _Deng Xiaoping_ and so on.
> I don't know if any other countries adopted the system, but it had no success in Italy. Very few Italians would recognise Beijing as the capital of China and even less would they know how to pronounce it. Older names, written with English phonetics, are simply pronounced _all'italiana_: Hong Kong is pronounced without the H and with the final G separate from the N.
> 
> The point here is that _Beijing_ and _Nanjing_ are not changes of name, but an attempt to establish an international standard for the existing ones. But if Europeans do not even learn the phonetics of each other's languages, why expect them to do it with Chinese? This is why the attempt failed.


To me, _Beijing_ is merely the way the Chinese chose to latinize the Chinese name of the city. Moskva would be a way to latinize the Russian name of that city. In French, I see no more reasons to use Beijing or Moskva instead of Pékin and Moscou as to say Lisboa instead of Lisbonne or London instead of Londres.


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## Penyafort

In Spain, Pequín is also preferred to Beijing. And wisely so. First, because it's closer in pronunciation, as those pinyin b's are actually /p/'s, and Spaniards would anyway read it as /βej'xin/. Second, because derived words like _pequinés _make more sense this way.


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## Agró

Beijingués


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## Angelo di fuoco

Penyafort said:


> In Spain, Pequín is also preferred to Beijing. And wisely so. First, because it's closer in pronunciation, as those pinyin b's are actually /p/'s, and Spaniards would anyway read it as /βej'xin/. Second, because derived words like _pequinés _make more sense this way.



Being closer in pronunciation (to what?) is debatable.

As far as I know, Pequín or Pekin reflects an older pronunciation (note in particular the k instead of j), while Beijing, being less phonemic in some parts, reflects contemporary pronunciation. 
To pronounce Beijing correctly, you have to actually now some Chinese, at least general reading rules.
You are mostly right about the first syllable (b stands for an unaspirated p), but you forget that the "ei" is a real diphthong, which is not there in the "Pe" of "Pequín".
The k is clearly older Chinese (or, maybe, Southern Chinese, which is in many ways more conservative than the way they speak in Northern China), but there's no way a contemporary Northern Chinese native speaker of Chinese would pronounce this as a/k/. On the other hand, the phoneme associated in English with the letter "j" is not really the same as the consonant it represents in Hanyu Pinyin, but it is close enough.


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## Terio

Angelo di fuoco said:


> Being closer in pronunciation (to what?) is debatable.
> 
> As far as I know, Pequín or Pekin reflects an older pronunciation (note in particular the k instead of j), while Beijing, being less phonemic in some parts, reflects contemporary pronunciation.
> To pronounce Beijing correctly, you have to actually now some Chinese, at least general reading rules.
> You are mostly right about the first syllable (b stands for an unaspirated p), but you forget that the "ei" is a real diphthong, which is not there in the "Pe" of "Pequín".
> The k is clearly older Chinese (or, maybe, Southern Chinese, which is in many ways more conservative than the way they speak in Northern China), but there's no way a contemporary Northern Chinese native speaker of Chinese would pronounce this as a/k/. On the other hand, the phoneme associated in English with the letter "j" is not really the same as the consonant it represents in Hanyu Pinyin, but it is close enough.


All right. But why, speaking French, should I use the Chinese name of a city that has a traditionnal name in French ? Should I also change Hannovre to Hannover, Hambourg to Hamburg, Aix-la-Chapelle to Aachen, Munich to München ?

I guess the Chinese have good reasons to romanize 北京 as Běijīng. People who speak or have studied Chinese may read it correctly, as Polish may read correctly Szczecin, Warszawa or Częstochowa. People who don't know Chinese or Polish cannot. French has Pékin and Varsovie and I have no reason to use Běijīng or Warszawa except in technical contexts.


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## Penyafort

Angelo di fuoco said:


> Being closer in pronunciation (to what?) is debatable.
> 
> As far as I know, Pequín or Pekin reflects an older pronunciation (note in particular the k instead of j), while Beijing, being less phonemic in some parts, reflects contemporary pronunciation.
> To pronounce Beijing correctly, you have to actually now some Chinese, at least general reading rules.
> You are mostly right about the first syllable (b stands for an unaspirated p), but you forget that the "ei" is a real diphthong, which is not there in the "Pe" of "Pequín".
> The k is clearly older Chinese (or, maybe, Southern Chinese, which is in many ways more conservative than the way they speak in Northern China), but there's no way a contemporary Northern Chinese native speaker of Chinese would pronounce this as a/k/. On the other hand, the phoneme associated in English with the letter "j" is not really the same as the consonant it represents in Hanyu Pinyin, but it is close enough.


As I see it, the problem here is that most transliterations are based on either English or French. If Spanish had been the 'transliterator', we could be seeing Peichín, Chanjáy, Sóul, etc. Instead, we see misguided adaptations, like the Spanish _Seúl_, from the French Séoul, in which the e's would have been better represented by an o. The question is, what's better? Each language writing them as close as possible in the language to the actual pronunciation? Or everybody writing it in the same way but pronouncing it differently? If the IPA was taught in schools, the solution could be much more simple.


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## Terio

Penyafort said:


> As I see it, the problem here is that most transliterations are based on either English or French. If Spanish had been the 'transliterator', we could be seeing Peichín, Chanjáy, Sóul, etc. Instead, we see misguided adaptations, like the Spanish _Seúl_, from the French Séoul, in which the e's would have been better represented by an o. The question is, what's better? Each language writing them as close as possible in the language to the actual pronunciation? Or everybody writing it in the same way but pronouncing it differently? If the IPA was taught in schools, the solution could be much more simple.


Pékin or Pequín are not translitterations. They are, repectively, French and Spanish exonyms of a Chinese toponym,  北京, while Běijīng is the romanization of it, following rules established by Chinese linguists (I suppose).

In general, when they exist, one uses the exonyms (Varsovie or Varsovia for Warszava, Lisbonne or Lissabon for Lisboa, Cordoue for Córdoba, Burdeos for Bordeaux, etc.). That has been done for centuries and also applies to some Chinese toponyms.The official names (romanized when necessary) are used only in special contexts (maps for examples).

Since I don't speak Chinese, the spelling Běijīng gives me only a poor idea of the real prononciation, but the same is true with names from other langages I don't speak like Hungarian or Slovak.


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## symposium

Well, I'll tell you the truth: I'm watching a few episodes of "The Crown" show, with many different dubs... And I have realized Princess Margaret has always been Margaret all along in Italian: Principessa Margaret, never Margherita. So I wonder: is it only possible heirs to the throne that have their names translated? On a side note: in the Italian dub they have left the main characters their "official" Italian names: Elisabetta, Carlo, Edoardo etc... I don't think it makes a lot of sense: that show is supposed to let you witness what's going on in the royal family behind the scenes, their intimate lives... I know it's dubbed to start with, but hearing the Queen call her son "Carlo" just ruins it. It's not like you're actually hearing them talk to each other, you're just hearing Italian gossip reports. I think it's right the opposite of what they had in mind...


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## Penyafort

Terio said:


> Pékin or Pequín are not translitterations. They are, repectively, French and Spanish exonyms of a Chinese toponym,  北京, while Běijīng is the romanization of it, following rules established by Chinese linguists (I suppose).


They are not transliterations of the way the city is called in the modern Beijing dialect. But they certainly were at the time they were coined from a more southern variety, centuries before.

I honestly don't see why a k for a j should matter much. After all, they also say Jiātàiluóníyà instead of Catalonia. Quid pro quo.


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## merquiades

symposium said:


> Well, I'll tell you the truth: I'm watching a few episodes of "The Crown" show, with many different dubs... And I have realized Princess Margaret has always been Margaret all along in Italian: Principessa Margaret, never Margherita. So I wonder: is it only possible heirs to the throne that have their names translated? On a side note: in the Italian dub they have left the main characters their "official" Italian names: Elisabetta, Carlo, Edoardo etc... I don't think it makes a lot of sense: that show is supposed to let you witness what's going on in the royal family behind the scenes, their intimate lives... I know it's dubbed to start with, but hearing the Queen call her son "Carlo" just ruins it. It's not like you're actually hearing them talk to each other, you're just hearing Italian gossip reports. I think it's right the opposite of what they had in mind...


It also happens in English in "official renderings of princely names".  I was taken aback the first time I heard Kate Middleton referred to as "Princess Catherine".
I also don't know why the current King of Spain was anglicized to King Philip VI whereas his father was always King Juan Carlos I and not King John Charles I.


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## AutumnOwl

merquiades said:


> It also happens in English in "official renderings of princely names".  I was taken aback the first time I heard Kate Middleton referred to as "Princess Catherine".


Kate Middleton was baptised Catherine Elizabeth, and Kate is a nickname, so her name in official papers is Catherine. To refer to her as "Princess Catherine" is totally wrong, her title is "Catherine, Dutchess of Cambridge". If William hadn't been given a title, then his wife would have been known as "Princess William of Wales", as it's only those who are born to a princess title who are to be known as "Princess Given name" in UK. Other countries have other rules, a woman marrying a royal prince is "Princess Given name" of (country name).


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## Penyafort

merquiades said:


> I also don't know why the current King of Spain was anglicized to King Philip VI whereas his father was always King Juan Carlos I and not King John Charles I.


Most probably because there have been other Philips before, but no John Charles.


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## merquiades

Penyafort said:


> Most probably because there have been other Philips before, but no John Charles.


Are they translated into Catalan and Basque?


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## Penyafort

merquiades said:


> Are they translated into Catalan and Basque?


In Catalan, for sure. *Joan Carles I* is the name mostly used in books and the media. Same for his son *Felip *and for the current princess of Asturias, *Elionor de Borbó*.

Not sure about Basque.


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## Agró

merquiades said:


> Are they translated into Catalan and Basque?


Not into Basque.
Felipe VI.a Espainiakoa - Wikipedia, entziklopedia askea.


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## Angelo di fuoco

Terio said:


> All right. But why, speaking French, should I use the Chinese name of a city that has a traditionnal name in French ? Should I also change Hannovre to Hannover, Hambourg to Hamburg, Aix-la-Chapelle to Aachen, Munich to München ?
> 
> I guess the Chinese have good reasons to romanize 北京 as Běijīng. People who speak or have studied Chinese may read it correctly, as Polish may read correctly Szczecin, Warszawa or Częstochowa. People who don't know Chinese or Polish cannot. French has Pékin and Varsovie and I have no reason to use Běijīng or Warszawa except in technical contexts.



I am not advocating that you personally, speaking French, should use the Chinese name of a city that has a tradional name in French.
However, we are living in a time where using exonyms is becoming less and less common and quite a few cities that used to have names of their own in languages not spoken locally have become known under their original names. E. g. Bratislava used to be known as Pressburg in German (Preßburg in pre-1996 spelling, I think). However, today, whenever I read or hear news in German mentioning the Slovak capital, it's always Bratislava and never Pressburg. The same goes for the Slovene capital Ljubljana, historically known as Laibach in German-speaking areas. I see Italians calling Salzburg with the German name Salzburg instead of the Italian Salisburgo, I've heard an Italian call Lübeck Lübeck, although the city has an "official" Italian name: Lubecca. The city of Livorno was historically called Leghorn in English, but there are few native English speakers out there who know this. Generally, the smaller a city is and the less importance it has today (whatever its historical importance), the lesser known it is, the bigger are the odds that the paradigm shift in favour of using the original name (or at least the original spelling) - as an alternative, it's the English name/spelling.
I am not particularly well-versed in the history of toponym adaptations in French and switching to a form closer to the original, but I'm pretty sure French cannot escape the general tendency.



Terio said:


> Pékin or Pequín are not translitterations. They are, repectively, French and Spanish exonyms of a Chinese toponym,  北京, while Běijīng is the romanization of it, following rules established by Chinese linguists (I suppose).



It is difficult to speak about "translitterations" from Chinese (there are a few other systems for writing out the pronunciation of Chinese which are not based on the Latin alphabet), but Pékin and Pequín are just exonyms based on older pronunciation.


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## merquiades

I agree this is the trend, but I don't think it applies to French as of yet. Almost every city in Italy, Spain, Greece...for however small it is has a French name. This does cause problems for French tourists sometimes who have no idea what the original is. Pékin, Kiev, Moscou, Le Caire, La Havane, Hambourg, Barcelone are still going strong too.


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## Angelo di fuoco

Penyafort said:


> They are not transliterations of the way the city is called in the modern Beijing dialect. But they certainly were at the time they were coined from a more southern variety, centuries before.
> 
> I honestly don't see why a k for a j should matter much. After all, they also say Jiātàiluóníyà instead of Catalonia. Quid pro quo.



Chinese has such a small repertory of syllables that it is inevitable for foreign names to be strongly distorted. No surprise here. Why it matters to some is probably because /k/ (or the letter k) on one hand and /tɕ/ or /dʒ/ (or the letter j) on the other are not commonly associated with each other.
However, it would be possible to keep the /k/ sound: one would have had to choose Kao instead of Jia as a transcription for the Ca of Catalunya (or, actually, English "Catalonia").

J also serves as a substitute for g. The then-boyfriend (or then-husband) of a friend of mine had her name tattooed on his arms and she asked me to check what the meaning of the characters was. Thus, I learned that Olga is Ao-er-jia in Chinese.


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## AutumnOwl

merquiades said:


> I agree this is the trend, but I don't think it applies to French as of yet. Almost every city in Italy, Spain, Greece...for however small it is has a French name. This does cause problems for French tourists sometimes who have no idea what the original is. Pékin, Kiev, Moscou, Le Caire, La Havane, Hambourg, Barcelone are still going strong too.


There maybe French names for cities in Italy, Spain, and Greece, but if my very quick look in Wikipedia and some French maps on the web, it doesn't appear that the French have bothered to "Frenchify" the names of the cities in Sweden and Finland (not important enough? 🤔 ).

Regarding Finland, as Swedish is an official language there, most town and cities have both a Swedish and a Finnish name. Of what I could see in Wikipedia, in most other languages it's the Finnish names that are used, Norwegian seem to use the Swedish language ones, and in some cases Estonian had their own name.

Göteborg (second largest city in Sweden) appears as Gothenburg in English, but Göteborg in most other languages, as well as the use of Swedish names for other town and cities.


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## Penyafort

*Here* and *here* you can see the Spanish version of the Swedish and Finnish placenames, including cities and historical provinces.

In practice, the only ones clearly rooted nowadays are the names of the countries (Suecia and Finlandia), some regions (Laponia, Carelia), as well as that of the Swedish capital, Estocolmo. Even Gotemburgo has gradually given way to Göteborg.

In Spanish, the Finnish capital is Helsinki, stressed on the _sin_, while in Catalan we keep the proparoxytone stress, Hèlsinki.


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## AutumnOwl

Penyafort said:


> *Here* and *here* you can see the Spanish version of the Swedish and Finnish placenames, including cities and historical provinces.


Thanks, it was interesting to see, but as a former inhabitant on the island of Gotlandia I noticed that the Swedish name had got a "ö" instead of "o" in the name. Gotland är en ö men innehåller inget ö - Gotland is an island but doesn't contains no (letter) ö.


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## merquiades

AutumnOwl said:


> There maybe French names for cities in Italy, Spain, and Greece, but if my very quick look in Wikipedia and some French maps on the web, it doesn't appear that the French have bothered to "Frenchify" the names of the cities in Sweden and Finland (not important enough? 🤔


Unfortunately, I cannot answer your question. I don't have much experience talking about place names in Nordic countries. Would look forward to a whirlwind tour to remedy that.
I know of Copenhague, Gothembourg and la Scanie, la Carélie, la Laponie. There are probably more.


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## Nanon

To the French list, I can add Upsal (Uppsala), which, like Gothembourg, sounds dated. The French pronounce Göteborg the German way, more or less. I will get back if I remember more translated city names. More than cities, some regions or provinces tend to retain translated names: Dalécarlie, Botnie, Carélie, Jutland, îles Féroé...

Copenhague and Helsinki are Copenhaga and Helsínquia in European Portuguese and Copenhague and Helsinque in Brazilian Portuguese.


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## apmoy70

Penyafort said:


> In Spain, Pequín is also preferred to Beijing. And wisely so. First, because it's closer in pronunciation, as those pinyin b's are actually /p/'s, and Spaniards would anyway read it as /βej'xin/. Second, because derived words like _pequinés _make more sense this way.


That would be *«Πεκίνο»* [pe̞ˈcino̞] (neut.) in Greek < Fr. Pékin; also *«Καντώνα* or *«Καντόνα»*, both are pronounced [kanˈto̞na] (fem.) < Fr. Canton (Guǎngdōng), *«Σαγκάη»* [s̠aŋˈɡa.i] (fem.) < Fr. Shanghai (Shànghǎi). 


Angelo di fuoco said:


> I am not advocating that you personally, speaking French, should use the Chinese name of a city that has a tradional name in French.
> However, we are living in a time where using exonyms is becoming less and less common and quite a few cities that used to have names of their own in languages not spoken locally have become known under their original names. E. g. Bratislava used to be known as *Pressburg* in German (Preßburg in pre-1996 spelling, I think). However, today, whenever I read or hear news in German mentioning the Slovak capital, it's always Bratislava and never Pressburg. The same goes for the Slovene capital Ljubljana, historically known as *Laibach* in German-speaking areas...


Which was the Katharevousian Gr. name of the city: *«Πρεσβοῦργον»* [pre̞s̠ˈvurɣo̞n] (neut.). Ljubljana was *«Λαϊβάχη»* [laɪˈvaçi] (fem.) < Laibach, or *«Λουβιάνα»* [luviˈana] (fem.) < Ljubljana. 
If you're interested in a few exotic Katharevousa Greek exonyms of famous foreign cities/areas/cantons/states:
Aalst (Belgium) = *«Ἀλόστη»* [aˈlo̞s̠ti] (fem.).
Αachen (Germany) = *«Ἀκυίσγρανον»* [aciˈis̠ɣrano̞n] (neut.).
Alsace (France) = *«Ἀλσατία»* [als̠aˈti.a] (fem.)***
Ancona (Italy) = *«Ἀγκών»* [aŋˈɡo̞n] (fem.).
Antwerp (Belgium) = *«Ἀμβέρσα»* [amˈve̞rs̠a] (fem.)***
Aragon (Spain) = *«Ἀραγονία»* [aɾaɣo̞ˈni.a] (fem.)***
Barcelona (Spain/Catalonia) = *«Βαρκελώνη»* [varce̞ˈlo̞ni] (fem.)***, earlier *«Βαρκινών»* [varciˈno̞n] (fem.).
Basel (Switzerland) = *«Βασιλεία»* [vas̠iˈli.a] (fem.)***
Bourgogne (France) = *«Βουργουνδία»* [vurɣunˈði.a] (fem.)***
Brugge (Belgium) = *«Βρύγη»* [ˈvriʝi] (fem.).
Brussels (Belgium) = *«Βρυξέλλες»* [vriˈk͡s̠e̞le̞s̠] (fem. nom. pl.)***
Copenhagen (Denmark) = *«Κοπεγχάγη»* [ko̞pe̞ŋˈxaʝi] (fem.)***
Den Haag (Netherlands) = *«Χάγη»* [ˈxaʝi] (fem.)***
Frankfurt (Germany) = *«Φραγκφούρτη»* [fraŋkˈfurti] (fem.)***
Gent (Belgium) = *«Γάνδη»* [ˈɣanði] (fem.)***
Cataluña/Catalunya = *«Καταλωνία»* or *«Καταλονία»*, both are pronounced [katalo̞ˈni.a] (fem.)***, earlier *«Καταλαυνία»* [katalaˈvni.a] (fem.).
Kraków (Poland) = *Κρακοβία* [kɾako̞ˈvi.a] (fem.)***
Lazio (Italy) = *«Λάτιο(ν)»* [ˈlati.o̞(n)] (neut.)***
Lecce (Italy) = *«Ἀλήσιον»* [aˈlis̠i.o̞n] (neut.).
Leipsig (Germany) = *«Λειψία»* [liˈp͡s̠i.a] (fem.)***
Lorraine (France) = *«Λωραίνη»* [lo̞ˈɾe̞ni] (fem.)***
Mainz (Germany) = *«Μαγεντία»* [maʝe̞nˈti.a] (fem.).
Marseille (France) = *«Μασσαλία»* [mas̠aˈli.a] (fem.)***
Orléans (France) = *«Ορλεάνη»* [o̞rle̞ˈani] (fem.)*** > *«Νέα Ορλεάνη»* [ˈne̞.a o̞rle̞ˈani] (fem.)*** = New Orleans (US).
Pomorze (Poland) = *«Πομερανία»* [po̞meɾaˈni.a] (fem.)***
Pompeii (Italy) = *«Πομπηία»* [po̞mbiˈi.a] (fem.)***
Provence (France) = *«Προβηγκία»* [pro̞viɲˈɟi.a] (fem.)***
Rhineland (Germany) = *«Ρηνανία»* [ɾinaˈni.a] (fem.)***
Śląsk (Poland) = *«Σιλεσία»* [s̠ile̞ˈs̠ia] (fem.)***
Szczecin (Poland) = *«Στεττίνο(ν)»* [s̠te̞ˈtino̞(n)] (neut.)*** 
Thüringen (Germany) = *«Θουριγγία»* [θuɾiɲˈɟi.a] (fem.)***
Trieste (Italy) = *«Τεργέστη»* [te̞rˈʝe̞s̠ti] (fem.)**

**still in everyday use.


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## Angelo di fuoco

"*«Λουβιάνα»* [luviˈana] (fem.) < Ljubljana" is rather from Italian "Lubiana" than directly from Ljubljana.
I cannot help noticing that many city names either come from Ancient Greek names or Medieval Latinisations. However, there are also  forms that come from French (like *Γάνδη*) and Italian (like said *Λουβιάνα, Ἀμβέρσα* -cf. Anversa - or *Λειψία* - cf. Lipsia).
"Lecce (Italy) = *«Ἀλήσιον»* [aˈlis̠i.o̞n] (neut.)." This name is indicated as being mentioned only in ancient sources, and not referring to Lecce, but to places in Greece.


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## Penyafort

A European country that was indeed translated into non-Slavic languages is the Black Mountain of *Crna Gora*, which Venetians translated into Monte Negro, Greeks into Μαυροβούνιο, Turks into Karadağ, Albanians into Mali i Zi, Arabs into Al-jabal ul-'aswad, the Chinese into Hēishān, etc. 

Western European languages adopted the Venetian translation, yet Iceland chose to translate it too into Svartfjallaland.


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## AutumnOwl

Penyafort said:


> Western European languages adopted the Venetian translation, yet Iceland chose to translate it too into Svartfjallaland.


And Copenhagen in Icelandic seems to be Kaupmannahöfn (Merchant harbour), well, it's closer to the true translation of the city's name than Copenhagen is, as it's Danish name comes from the words for (to) buy + harbour.
A list of Icelandic geographic names: Cercurius – Ordlistor: Isländsk-svensk ordlista över geografiska namn


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## apmoy70

Just found a couple of interesting ones:
*«Βουρδίγαλα»* [vurˈðiɣala] (neut. nom. pl.) = Bordeaux (France), and Toulouse (France) is *«Τολώσση»* [to̞ˈlo̞s̠i] (fem.), earlier *«Θολώδη»* [θo̞ˈlo̞ði] ( fem.)


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## dojibear

Mandarin (the official language of China) has an official phonetic script called "pinyin". Pinyin uses the roman alphabet symbols, and uses them in a vaguely English way ("t" is t). But it represents the sounds of Mandarin, not the sounds of English.

Pinyin was designed for Chinese children, not for foreigners. Ever since 1956, every Chinese schoolchild learns pinyin first, then gradually (over 12 years) learns how to read and write all the Chinese characters. In China, adults use pinyin to type on PCs and smartphones. The computer/smartphone turns the pinyin into characters (with help from the user).

In pinyin Beijing (北京) is "bei-jing", so it seems natural to use the English spelling "Beijing". 

Nowadays, it seems like the English version of most place names in China is the pinyin spelling. Shanghai is "shang-hai", Guangzhuo (near Hong Kong) is "guang-zhuo", Harbin is "ha-r-bin", and so on.


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## Angelo di fuoco

You probably mean "Guangzhou". It is the capital of the Guangdong province, which is the only province on which Hongkong borders - and way bigger than Hongkong, although arguably less famous.
By the way, "Harbin" is a simplification: the Pinyin is actually "Hā'ěrbīn" and the name itself is not Chinese in origin, but Manchu.


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## Penyafort

apmoy70 said:


> and Toulouse (France) is *«Τολώσση»* [to̞ˈlo̞s̠i] (fem.), earlier *«Θολώδη»* [θo̞ˈlo̞ði] ( fem.)


How comes it was with a ð? Any historical reasons?

_Tolosi _looks nice, close to Tolosa. This reminds me of two things that get on my nerves. All those Spaniards saying /po/ for the town of Pau, and all those Brits saying "barTHelona", thinking they know their stuff, when the way of pronouncing them as they did before is actually closer to the real local pronunciation, /paw/ and /bəɾsəˈlonə/.


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## merquiades

Penyafort said:


> All those Spaniards saying /po/ for the town of Pau, and all those Brits saying "barTHelona", thinking they know their stuff, when the way of pronouncing them as they did before is actually closer to the real local pronunciation, /paw/ and /bəɾsəˈlonə/.


Well, I do this habitually and think it is justified. It's close to the pronunciation of the national language and the one most people use in those places. I also say Strasbourg, Bordeaux, and Nice as in French not Strossburig, Bordèu or Nizza. And Gijón and La Coruña rather than Xixón or A Coruña. I visit New Orleans not Norlins. I do this in English or what ever language.


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## Penyafort

merquiades said:


> Well, I do this habitually and think it is justified. It's close to the pronunciation of the national language and the one most people use in those places. I also say Strasbourg, Bordeaux, and Nice as in French not Strossburig, Bordèu or Nizza. And Gijón and La Coruña rather than Xixón or A Coruña. I visit New Orleans not Norlins. *I do this in English or what ever language.*


That's what I mean. I find it interesting to see how, even with the new trend of linguistic PCism in vogue in the US, one doesn't mind at all sounding disrespectful with regard to these things.

Anyway, I must say, if you're speaking Spanish and say Bordeaux, Strasbourg or Nice, expect to be seen as a Francophile weirdo.


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## apmoy70

Penyafort said:


> How comes it was with a ð? Any historical reasons?
> 
> _Tolosi _looks nice, close to Tolosa. This reminds me of two things that get on my nerves. All those Spaniards saying /po/ for the town of Pau, and all those Brits saying "barTHelona", thinking they know their stuff, when the way of pronouncing them as they did before is actually closer to the real local pronunciation, /paw/ and /bəɾsəˈlonə/.


It's a typo, apologies, it's *«Θολώση»* [θo̞ˈlo̞si] (fem.), I misread it and typed it wrongly 
Thanks alot for pointing it out.


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## merquiades

Penyafort said:


> That's what I mean. I find it interesting to see how, even with the new trend of linguistic PCism in vogue in the US, one doesn't mind at all sounding disrespectful with regard to these things.
> 
> Anyway, I must say, if you're speaking Spanish and say Bordeaux, Strasbourg or Nice, expect to be seen as a Francophile weirdo.


El autocar con destino a Bordeaux hace escala en Toulouse. Los pasajeros de Marseille tendrán que hacer transbordo.
The coach going to Bordeaux makes a stop over in Toulouse. Marseille passengers will need to transfer.

The students party on Ibiza (eebeetha) every spring break, not in Palma de Mallorca (palma day my yorka).

What's wrong with that? Are you cringing yet?


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## Penyafort

merquiades said:


> El autocar con destino a Bordeaux hace escala en Toulouse. Los pasajeros de Marseille tendrán que hacer transbordo.
> The coach going to Bordeaux makes a stop over in Toulouse. Marseille passengers will need to transfer.
> 
> The students party on Ibiza (eebeetha) every spring break, not in Palma de Mallorca (palma day my yorka).
> 
> What's wrong with that? Are you cringing yet?


With Bordeaux and Marseille, yes. Burdeos (or Bordeus in Catalan) and Marsella are very well-rooted. Toulouse is actually said like that by Spanish speakers. In Catalan, though, I say Tolosa, or Tolosa de Llenguadoc if it has to be distinguished.

I'm used to hear Ibiza by guiris. I've heard them say it in all the possible ways. Brits seem to keep with Majorca, which they do right, as it makes etymological sense and sounds closer to Mallorca than if they actually read Mallorca.


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## merquiades

Penyafort said:


> I'm used to hear Ibiza by guiris. I've heard them say it in all the possible ways. Brits seem to keep with Majorca, which they do right, as it makes etymological sense and sounds closer to Mallorca than if they actually read Mallorca


I don't believe Americans would. The first time I heard Majorca I wondered if it was another place somewhere else to be pronounced /maxorka/.

I guess there might be someone who could confuse Tolosa with the place in Jaén.


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## Angelo di fuoco

merquiades said:


> I don't believe Americans would. The first time I heard Majorca I wondered if it was another place somewhere else to be pronounced /maxorka/.
> 
> I guess there might be someone who could confuse Tolosa with the place in Jaén.


You might want to look up what _махорка_ means in Russian.


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## merquiades

Angelo di fuoco said:


> You might want to look up what _махорка_ means in Russian.


Tobacco?


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## Angelo di fuoco

To be precise: Aztec tobacco/rustic tobacco, scientific name: Nicotiana rustica.


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## Penyafort

merquiades said:


> I guess there might be someone who could confuse Tolosa with the place in Jaén.


Is there one there? I didn't even know it.

I'd say that'd be to distinguish it from the Basque Tolosa.


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## radagasty

Angelo di fuoco said:


> You probably mean "Guangzhou". It is the capital of the Guangdong province, which is the only province on which Hongkong borders - and way bigger than Hongkong, although arguably less famous.



Speaking of which, Guangzhou 廣州 is traditionally called _Canton _in English, whence _Cantonese_ for the language, and is perhaps one of the most enduring exonyms for a place in mainland China. The annual ‘Canton Fair’, which is the largest trade fair in the country, is still known as such, for instance. The reason _Canton_ is so divergent from its pinyin name is that it is in fact derived from the name of the province, Guangdong (historically _Kwangtung_) 廣東, even though it refers to the city (which is the provincial capital) and not the province, for which _Canton Province_ (rare these days) in full was used.

Interestingly, Hong Kong 香港 and Macau 澳門 have both retained their exonyms, for they would otherwise be the rather unfamiliar Xianggang and Aomen respectively.


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## Angelo di fuoco

Well, in Russian at least the name for Macau is somewhat known. There are even two transcriptions: Аомынь (older version) and Аомэнь (newer version).


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## Einstein

Here in Italy (and presumably elsewhere in Europe), people have learnt the name of one of the pharmaceutical companies producing anti-Covid vaccine: PFIZER. This is evidently a German name, but the company is American and at least the Italian media give it an American pronunciation (no P, a diphthong for the I and an English Z). I suppose this is justified, but the Italians are not well-acquainted with the German language and probably many imagine that this is the correct German pronunciation.
But I just wonder how this name is pronounced in Germany and Austria; do they consider the U.S. ownership or do they stick to the original pronunciation?


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## merquiades

@Einstein In France Pfizer is pronounced in a number of different ways, mimicking or mixing German and/or English pronunciation or using just plain French.  Some people cringed when the health Minister, presumably going for pfitser, said fister.


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## Angelo di fuoco

Pfizer is the American company. The pronunciation in German is relatively close: beginning with the second f, the pronunciation is invariably as in English. 
There are people out there who prononunce the name with the initial p (although it is really silent) or without it, depending on their education. An initial p before some consonants is silent in English (ps and pf appear to be concerned), however, such combinations are but sporadically met in Grecisms and even more seldom in English, so they are not really taught at school. German-language Wiki gives only the correct pronunciation, but I wonder how often it is consulted on that subject.
By the way, the spelling "Pfizer" itself does not look really German, but rather Americanised: a postvocalic z in genuine German words is usually preceded by a t (same thing as in Nie_*tz*_sche or zuletzt). 

The German company is called Biontech (from _*Bio*pharmaceutical *N*ew *Tech*nologies_), pronounced either [biˈɔntɛk] oder [baɪ̯ˈɔntɛk]. It was founded by a married couple, both of whom have Turkish roots. So the German company already does have its official name in English and English only. The German company's name is the one usually used in German for the vaccine. In theory we know about the American partner, but in practice the knowledge is rarely present in our minds.

Their joint product is called COMIRNATY and pronounced according to English pronunciation rules.


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## Terio

Angelo di fuoco said:


> I am not advocating that you personally, speaking French, should use the Chinese name of a city that has a tradional name in French.
> However, we are living in a time where using exonyms is becoming less and less common and quite a few cities that used to have names of their own in languages not spoken locally have become known under their original names. E. g. Bratislava used to be known as Pressburg in German (Preßburg in pre-1996 spelling, I think). However, today, whenever I read or hear news in German mentioning the Slovak capital, it's always Bratislava and never Pressburg. The same goes for the Slovene capital Ljubljana, historically known as Laibach in German-speaking areas. I see Italians calling Salzburg with the German name Salzburg instead of the Italian Salisburgo, I've heard an Italian call Lübeck Lübeck, although the city has an "official" Italian name: Lubecca. The city of Livorno was historically called Leghorn in English, but there are few native English speakers out there who know this. Generally, the smaller a city is and the less importance it has today (whatever its historical importance), the lesser known it is, the bigger are the odds that the paradigm shift in favour of using the original name (or at least the original spelling) - as an alternative, it's the English name/spelling.
> I am not particularly well-versed in the history of toponym adaptations in French and switching to a form closer to the original, but I'm pretty sure French cannot escape the general tendency.


You are right in a way. Historical names are probably the first ones to be changed. Smaller towns or cities people seldom speak about also tend to change exonyms to the original names. But even if it is the trend, I don't think names like Lisbonne (or Lisbon in English), Varsovie (or Warsaw), Prague (or Prag), Belgrade, Mouscou (or Moscow), Rome, Athènes (Athens) and many many other exonyms are about to be abandonned. I think that Beijin came about only because of the adoption of Pinyin as a romanization standard.


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## Terio

merquiades said:


> I agree this is the trend, but I don't think it applies to French as of yet. Almost every city in Italy, Spain, Greece...for however small it is has a French name. This does cause problems for French tourists sometimes who have no idea what the original is. Pékin, Kiev, Moscou, Le Caire, La Havane, Hambourg, Barcelone are still going strong too.


I don't see the problem. Why should Moscou cause more problems to French speakers than Moscow to English speakers?


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## merquiades

Terio said:


> I don't see the problem. Why should Moscou cause more problems to French speakers than Moscow to English speakers?


Recent example I saw.  French tourists in Greece looking for or talking about Nauplie, Égine, Épidaure, Santourin...(many others) and literally no local knew what they were talking about except other French people.


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## Terio

AutumnOwl said:


> There maybe French names for cities in Italy, Spain, and Greece, but if my very quick look in Wikipedia and some French maps on the web, it doesn't appear that the French have bothered to "Frenchify" the names of the cities in Sweden and Finland (not important enough? 🤔 ).


The names of Italian, Spanish, Greek, German, etc. cities and towns have not been really "Frenchified". They evolved like other words from common roots, sometimes from vulgar latin, sometimes from medieval latin, etc. More recent names  are not adapted in the written language except, maybe, for accent marks and other orthographic sings : Córdoba (Spain) is Cordoue but Córdoba (Argentina) is Córdoba or Cordoba. (I think there is a trend to keep the accent marks in carefully written texts. The computers made it much easier. It was almost impossible with typewriters.)

Maps are misleading. I think the convention is to use the official toponyms and that exonyms can be added between parenthesis (French exonyms, for example, in a French atlas). Languages that use other scripts add the difficulty of latinizing the official toponyms.

If your map or your atlas is supposed to be used in many countries, it makes it even more difficult do deal with latinization and most probably no exonyms at all will be used.


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## Terio

Penyafort said:


> How comes it was with a ð? Any historical reasons?
> 
> _Tolosi _looks nice, close to Tolosa. This reminds me of two things that get on my nerves. All those Spaniards saying /po/ for the town of Pau, and all those Brits saying "barTHelona", thinking they know their stuff, when the way of pronouncing them as they did before is actually closer to the real local pronunciation, /paw/ and /bəɾsəˈlonə/.


It is sometimes hard to decide. In French,  Gérone  for example, is traditional. So, the change from Gerona (Spanish) to Girona (catalan) makes no problem. In French, it remains Gérone.  But I hesitate between Lérida and Lleida. Lérida is more likely to be recognized. Lleida is more respectful of the now official name.

Other difficult cases (for me) : 

Kiev or Kiyiv ? Can Kiev be considered like a French exonym ? Or is it only a latinized Russian name ?

Bombay or Mumbai ?


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## symposium

I don't understand what the problem is with keeping the traditional name a foreign city has in a specific language when speaking that language... Is that offensive? Do Brits go mad when they hear a French person say "Londres" while speaking French? Do French people sleep at night knowing that in English they say "Paris" with an S at the end? I've heard a few times people say "Milano" while speaking in English I couldn't help but wonder: don't they know that city's name is "Milan" in English?


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## Angelo di fuoco

It's not really a "problem". It's rather a desire for authenticity. Sometimes, it's just plain ignorance (=not knowing).


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## radagasty

Angelo di fuoco said:


> It's not really a "problem". It's rather a desire for authenticity. Sometimes, it's just plain ignorance (=not knowing).



And sometimes, it stems instead from a desire to show off. Those who insist on pronouncing _Budapest_ /buːdəpɛʃt/ in English, for instance, do rather get my goat. Yes, we know that you know how it is pronounced in Hungarian, but we’re speaking English now.


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## Angelo di fuoco

Maybe. A few years ago I met a young Australian (I think he was sixteen years old at the moment) who had been spending some time in Germany and who had began to pronounce the name of the Hungarian capital the Hungarian way after visiting the city.


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## Penyafort

radagasty said:


> And sometimes, it stems instead from a desire to show off. Those who insist on pronouncing _Budapest_ /buːdəpɛʃt/ in English, for instance, do rather get my goat. Yes, we know that you know how it is pronounced in Hungarian, but we’re speaking English now.


That is partly what I meant. And even more when saying Barcelona or Milan in English is indeed closer to the real local name, what makes the attempt to show off even more embarrassing.


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## AndrasBP

radagasty said:


> Those who insist on pronouncing _Budapest_ /buːdəpɛʃt/ in English, for instance, do rather get my goat. Yes, we know that you know how it is pronounced in Hungarian, but we’re speaking English now.





Angelo di fuoco said:


> A few years ago I met a young Australian (I think he was sixteen years old at the moment) who had been spending some time in Germany and who had began to pronounce the name of the Hungarian capital the Hungarian way after visiting the city.


Yes, Budapest is a strange case. I think that one of the reasons for the phenomenon is that the *spelling *of the English and Hungarian versions is the same.

I'm pretty sure the same "Budape*sh*t" people keep saying Lisbon, Prague, Vienna or Copenhagen in English, not Lisboa, Praha, Wien or København.


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## Roxxxannne

merquiades said:


> Recent example I saw.  French tourists in Greece looking for or talking about Nauplie, Égine, Épidaure, Santourin...(many others) and literally no local knew what they were talking about except other French people.


This reminds me of an incident when I was in college.  My ancient history professor was from Germany and kept referring to Herodot (accent on the first syllable) one day in his lecture; it was on the Persians, as I recall.  I kept thinking, "Gee, this HERodot said the same things about the Persians as HeRODotus did ..." 
<SUDDEN BURST OF ENLIGHTENMENT>
Thank God I figured that out before I raised my hand to ask which one copied from the other.


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## Roxxxannne

Penyafort said:


> That is partly what I meant. And even more when saying Barcelona or Milan in English is indeed closer to the real local name, what makes the attempt to show off even more embarrassing.


Yes, especially when the speaker has to suddenly alter all their normal vowels in order to pronounce the place name according to the language of the people whose place it is.  Reporters on NPR (National Public Radio) in the US used to go right along merrily using their ordinary standard American accents until they got to something like Nicaragua, when suddenly the country name sounded as though it were badly dubbed in.


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## merquiades

Roxxxannne said:


> Yes, especially when the speaker has to suddenly alter all their normal vowels in order to pronounce the place name according to the language of the people whose place it is.  Reporters on NPR (National Public Radio) in the US used to go right along merrily using their ordinary standard American accents until they got to something like Nicaragua, when suddenly the country name sounded as though it were badly dubbed in.


NPR reporters are the most likely people  to say "live from Budapésht" or "reporting from historic Praha".  Yesterday I heard a PBS anchor say "Kyiv" and Afghanistan and Pakistan pronounced "Ahfghahneestáahn", "Pahkeestáahn".
These people will also say "Côte d'Ivoire".

I don't think it is showing off or always showing off.  There is a growing movement as Angelo brought out before that says it is disrespectful to anglicize any name.  If they don't know to pronounce a name they will give it a French or Spanish sound.... to it.

They do this with people too:   Creesteenah Fayrnaahdays


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## Roxxxannne

I was thinking about the first time I noticed it, in the 1990s when I listened to NPR on the way to work.  It sounded show-offy then because they seemed to be trying SO hard.


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## merquiades

Roxxxannne said:


> I was thinking about the first time I noticed it, in the 1990s when I listened to NPR on the way to work.  It sounded show-offy then because they seemed to be trying SO hard.


Especially because they pause and take a deep breath before they attack the word


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## dojibear

merquiades said:


> I don't think it is showing off or always showing off. There is a growing movement as Angelo brought out before that says it is disrespectful to anglicize any name.


If it's the name of a person, the US rule is "pronounce it the way the person pronounces it". Many English names (both first and last names) have multiple pronunciations with the same spelling. The same happens with foreign person names.

But I think you are talking about place names (cities, provinces, countries). 

For that, there may be a difference between the US and UK. Around half the people in the US are farther than 2,000 km from the nearest non-English-speaking country (Mexico). But "within 2,000 km of London" covers several countries and languages.


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## Terio

merquiades said:


> I don't think it is showing off or always showing off.  There is a growing movement as Angelo brought out before that says it is disrespectful to anglicize any name.  If they don't know to pronounce a name they will give it a French or Spanish sound.... to it.


But, is it really possible no to anglicize them? Who can master the right phonetics for all the toponyms of the world? You may try to say _Lisboa_ instead of _Lisbon_, but unless you know portugese (European portugese in that case), you will only read the letters as if they formed an English word. And since English orthography, anyway, is so misleading, you will be at risk of sounding more ridiculous than respectful.

When no exonym exists (let's say São Paulo), you have no choice. If you have the chance to hear it, you may imitate it as well as you can. If all you have is the written form and you don't have the means to check the original prononciation, you have no choice to try to read it.

When exonyms exist (and persist), they show that there are historical and cultural links between the countries. To me, they are a precious legacy.


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## merquiades

There are no French exonyms for South America. I wonder why they escaped it. No Bonaire, Caraques, Saint Paul, or Saint Jacques du Chili, Saint Joseph de la Côte Riche.


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## dojibear

Is French widely spoken in South America? I only know about one South American country that speaks French: French Guiana. This country is a member of the EU.

Oh wait, you are talking about exonyms (words used in France), so this isn't relevant.


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## merquiades

dojibear said:


> Is French widely spoken in South America? I only know about one South American country that speaks French: French Guiana. This country is a member of the EU.
> 
> Oh wait, you are talking about exonyms (words used in France), so this isn't relevant.


Kind of relevant... Guyane Française does have French names for its towns and regions.... so I shouldn't have said South America.


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## Terio

merquiades said:


> There are no French exonyms for South America. I wonder why they escaped it. No Bonaire, Caraques, Saint Paul, or Saint Jacques du Chili, Saint Joseph de la Côte Riche.


If you mean only cities and towns, there are few : Mexico (Sp. : Ciudad de México), Cartagène (Sp. : Cartegena).

If you include countries, states or provinces, regions, rivers, etc, there are quite a few : Mexique (México),  Guatémala (Guatemala), Vénézuela (Venezuela), Colombie, Pérou, Brésil, Argentine, Chili, Bolivie, Surinam, Amazone, Amazonie, Patagonie, Pernambouc, baie de Tous les Saints, Basse-Californie.

When the Americas were "discovered" and named by the Europeans, the fashion to "translate" geographical names was over.

By the way, you may be interested in the following list of USA toponyms of French origin : Liste des toponymes d'origine française aux États-Unis — Wikipédia


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## Penyafort

merquiades said:


> There are no French exonyms for South America. I wonder why they escaped it. No Bonaire, Caraques, Saint Paul, or Saint Jacques du Chili, Saint Joseph de la Côte Riche.





Terio said:


> When the Americas were "discovered" and named by the Europeans, the fashion to "translate" geographical names was over.


I'd rather say that what was over was the dual versions of any name, be it of a person, place, etc, in the local language and in Latin. Most translated exonyms were adapted from the Latin versions, which in many places used to be the most used in documents.


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## apmoy70

Terio said:


> If you mean only cities and towns, there are few : Mexico (Sp. : Ciudad de México), Cartagène (Sp. : Cartegena).
> 
> If you include countries, states or provinces, regions, rivers, etc, there are quite a few : Mexique (México),  Guatémala (Guatemala), Vénézuela (Venezuela), Colombie, Pérou, Brésil, Argentine, Chili, Bolivie, Surinam, Amazone, Amazonie, Patagonie, Pernambouc, baie de Tous les Saints, Basse-Californie.
> 
> When the Americas were "discovered" and named by the Europeans, the fashion to "translate" geographical names was over.
> 
> By the way, you may be interested in the following list of USA toponyms of French origin : Liste des toponymes d'origine française aux États-Unis — Wikipédia


*«Μεξικό»* [me̞k͡s̠iˈko̞] (neut. declin.), *«Γουατεμάλα»* [ɣua̯te̞ˈmala] (fem. decl.), *«Βενεζουέλα»* [ve̞ne̞z̠uˈe̞la] (fem. declin.), *«Κολομβία»* [ko̞lo̞mˈvi.a] (fem. declin.), *«Περού»* [pe̞ˈɾu] (neut. indecl.), *«Βραζιλία»* [vraz̠iˈli.a] (fem. decl.), its capital is *«Μπραζίλια»* [braˈz̠ili.a] (fem. indecl.) , *«Αργεντινή»* [arʝe̞ndiˈni] (fem. declin.), its capital is *«Μπουένος Άιρες» * [buˈe̞no̞s̠ ˈaɪɾe̞s̠] (neut. sinɡ. indecl.), *«Χιλή»* [çiˈli] (fem. declin.), its capital is *«Σαντιάγο»* [s̠antiˈaɣo̞] (neut. indecl.), and not the translation *«Άγιος Ιάκωβος»* [ˈaʝi.o̞s̠ iˈako̞vo̞s̠], *«Βολιβία»* [vo̞liˈvi.a] (fem. declin.), *«Σουρινάμ»* [suɾiˈnam] (neut. indecl.), (river) *«Αμαζόνιος»* [amaˈz̠o̞ni.o̞s̠] (masc. decl.), (reɡion) *«Aμαζονία»* [amaz̠o̞ˈni.a] (fem. declin.), *«Παταγονία»* [pataɣo̞ˈni.a] (fem. declin.), *«Κόλπος των Αγίων Πάντων»* [ˈko̞lpo̞s̠ ˌto̞naˈʝi.o̞n ˈpando̞n] (Baía de Todos-os-Santos), *«Κάτω Καλιφόρνια»* [ˈkato̞ kaliˈforni.a] (Baja California), *«Ουρουγουάη»* [uɾuɣuˈaɪ] (fem. decl.), the Uruɡuayan capital is *«Μοντεβιδέο»* [ˌmonte̞viˈðe̞.o̞] (neut. indecl.), while the Paraɡuayan one is *«Ασουνσιόν»* [as̠uns̠ˈço̞n] (fem. indecl.), used in Spanish and not translated to *«Ανάληψη»* [aˈnalip͡s̠i] (fem.) --> _Assumption_, and the country is *«Παραγουάη»* [paɾaɣuˈaɪ] (fem. decl.).


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## symposium

I was just watching a 1969 Italian rendition a T.S. Eliot's play, probably based on an older translation, where all the characters' first names were translated into Italian, as it was traditionally costumary. Eg., we have a Edoardo Chamberlain. Just saying, all the characters in the Italian version of "Gone with the Wind" are given Italian first names, eg. "Rossella O'Hara". When I was younger I used to think that in Antebellum South they had some kind of Anglo-Saxon enamourament with Italy and they all gave their children Italian names... Also, anime where huge in 80's and 90's Italy, and most anime characters were given Italian first names, though thay would keep their Japanese last names, so you would have a Sabrina Yoshimoto, a Renato Hibushitsu and what not. As a child, all I surmised was that Italian first names were very popular in Japan, too...


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## Red Arrow

Lijst van Belgische plaatsen in twee talen - Wikipedia

In Belgium, most cities, villages, street names, rivers, provinces and municipalities have two or three names. (Dutch, French, German)

plaatsen in Wallonië met een Nederlandse naam

Flemish state television VRT uses the Dutch names of Walloon places for the provinces, rivers and bigger cities, but the French names for less widely known places. Walloon places with facilities for Dutch speakers are also said in Dutch. For instance, I live close to Grez-Doiceau and nobody uses the Dutch name anymore. We do still say Bevekom instead of Beauvechain, but VRT says Beauvechain because it is too small. Places in Ostbelgien with facilities for French speakers get the German name if no Dutch name exists.

The link above mentions in bold which name is used for which city on VRT. I think other news outlets use the same convention. (VRT Dutch is seen as "proper Dutch")

RTBF always uses the French name, as a big part of its audience wouldn't understand anything else, and many journalists can't pronounce Dutch. It would simply be impractical.



Angelo di fuoco said:


> By the way, the spelling "Pfizer" itself does not look really German, but rather Americanised: a postvocalic z in genuine German words is usually preceded by a t (same thing as in Nie_*tz*_sche or zuletzt).


? There are many German words with intervocalic z, for instance Polizei.

Pfizer looks extremely German.


merquiades said:


> There are no French exonyms for South America. I wonder why they escaped it. No Bonaire, Caraques, Saint Paul, or Saint Jacques du Chili, Saint Joseph de la Côte Riche.


They "escaped" it because these place names are less old.


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## nizzebro

Королева Елизавета I Английская (Королева - Дева)
(she is just my favorite historical personage, sorry)


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## Angelo di fuoco

Red Arrow said:


> ? There are many German words with intervocalic z, for instance Polizei.
> 
> Pfizer looks extremely German.



Polizei is a loanword (stressed on the last syllable), Pfizer at least in theory is not.
The problem with "Pfizer" is: it looks like it is spoken with a short i. Those words, as far as I can remember, usually have "tz", e. g. Spitzel, Flitzer, stibitzen.


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## Red Arrow

No, a long i, just like in Biber.


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## Nanon

merquiades said:


> There are no French exonyms for South America. I wonder why they escaped it. No Bonaire, Caraques, Saint Paul, or Saint Jacques du Chili, Saint Joseph de la Côte Riche.


Not exactly: _Santiago du Chili_ may be considered a hybrid (dated, though).
But you may consider [bɥɛnɔzɛʁ], erm... an exopronunciation. Insisting on the Spanish pronunciation when speaking in French would sound pedantic. As to Bonaire, it is just an island that forms part of the Netherlands  (and whose name does not come from French according to Bonaire's History)


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## AutumnOwl

AndrasBP said:


> I'm pretty sure the same "Budape*sh*t" people keep saying Lisbon, Prague, Vienna or Copenhagen in English, not Lisboa, Praha, Wien or København.


In Swedish the names of the last two cities are the same as in their own languages (well, just a difference in spelling), Lissabon, Prag, Wien and Köpenhamn. When I lived in Göteborg, I was always unsure if I was to say/write Göteborg or Gothenburg when speaking/writing in English.

It was even more confusing to speak with Swedes about places in Finland, should I use the Finnish names I'm used to, or the Swedish names most Swedes are familiar with, and what about place names in bilingual areas?  Both Finnish and Swedish are official languages in Finland, and many places have two official names.
Helsinki/Helsingfors; Turku/Åbo; Tampere/Tammerfors; Mikkeli/S:t Michel; Oulu/Uleåborg; Borgå/Porvoo; Hangö/Hanko; Jakobstad/Pietarsaari; Lovisa/Loviisa


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## gato radioso

AndrasBP said:


> Yes, Budapest is a strange case. I think that one of the reasons for the phenomenon is that the *spelling *of the English and Hungarian versions is the same.
> 
> I'm pretty sure the same "Budape*sh*t" people keep saying Lisbon, Prague, Vienna or Copenhagen in English, not Lisboa, Praha, Wien or København.



Well, to be accurate, you should pronunce Lisboa with the same "sh" sound of Budapest.
That´s the way the Portuguese pronunce an "s" when at the end of a syllable.
I think these things might be important for some people. When I first went to Budapest, the taxi driver that picked me up at the airport -he spoke some English- insisted in that: not Budapest, but _Budape*sh*t_, like _*Sh*tuttgart_.


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## Olaszinhok

gato radioso said:


> Well, to be accurate, you should pronunce Lisboa with the same "sh" sound of Budapest.


Are you sure? It should be lɨ*ʒ'*boɐ with a J sound as in English mea*s*ure or French *Jo*ur, while in Budapest you have got a sh sound.


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