# Vásárhelyi (pronunciation)



## Linnets

Hi all,
what's the actual Hungarian pronunciation of Vásárhelyi Győző (original name of Victor Vasarely)? I guess it's ['vaːʃaːrɛji 'gʝøːzøː], with silent _h_, but I'm not sure. Also, how Hungarian speakers pronounce Victor Vasarely? Do they use the French pronunciation [vik'toːr vazare'li] or similar or do they use a Magyarized one, such as ['vɒʃɒrej] with short vowels?
Thanks in advance.


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## Orreaga

No, the _h _is not silent in Hungarian. I suspect he left it out of _Vasarely _because the French don't pronounce it. The _h _is an indispensable phoneme of his surname, since _hely _means _place, and ely/i _doesn't mean anything I can think of_.

_The _Gy _of _Győző _does not contain a _g _sound but is more like _dj_.


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## Rallino

I don't know the phonetic spelling but from what I know:

*Vásárhelyi *rhymes with _vásárheji. (You do pronounce the 'h')

_and

*Viktor Vasarely *--> _Viktor Vázáréli_


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## Orreaga

I believe the _*ly *_is a long _*j *_sound, so it would rhyme with _Vásárhejji_.

I tend to doubt Hungarians (in Hungary) would accurately copy the French pronunciation of _*Vasarely*_ when speaking about this artist but will wait for a native to chime in.


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## Linnets

Orreaga said:


> The _Gy _of _Győző _does not contain a _g _sound but is more like _dj_.


Yes, I transcribed it with [gʝ] but some authors prefer [ɟʝ] for the same phone. A more accurate transcription would be [g͡ʝ] or [ɟ͡ʝ]. It's not a palatal stop, which would be [ɟ], but a palatal affricate.



Orreaga said:


> I believe the _*ly *_is a long _*j *_sound, so it would rhyme with _Vásárhejji_.


In any case, both [j] and _ are pronounced, so it's [-rɛji] rather than [-rɛj] or [-rɛi] right? Maybe that gives the idea of a long [j]._


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## Orreaga

Yes, both are pronounced. I would say  [-rɛj:i] (if that's how you indicate a long j).


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## Zsanna

I think few people know the painter's original Hungarian name even in Hungary. 
In any case, we usually mention him as Vasarely (we don't bother too much with the first name), pronounced [vazareli] with the special, Hungarian "low" a that foreigners tend not to be able to tell from (their) o (and for which I cannot give a proper phonetic sign).

Of course, our "r" is different from both French and Italian "r"-s as well...

But the "j" is not long in Vásárhelyi - maybe in some really distant, rural places but not in "normal" pronunciation.


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## Linnets

Zsanna said:


> I think few people know the painter's original Hungarian name even in Hungary.
> In any case, we usually mention him as Vasarely (we don't bother too much with the first name), pronounced [vazareli] with the special, Hungarian "low" a that foreigners tend not to be able to tell from (their) o (and for which I cannot give a proper phonetic sign).
> 
> Of course, our "r" is different from both French and Italian "r"-s as well...


So it's ['vɒzɒɾɛli] (first syllable stressed, all short vowels), [ɒ] is the short /a/ in Hungarian, while [ɾ] is the common Hungarian realization for /r/ ([r/ɾ] in Italian, [ʀ/ʁ] in French).


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## Zsanna

That seems to be perfect to me, Linnets.
(I've given up using the international phonetic symbols because most people don't have the foggiest idea what they mean or how they're used... unfortunately. Now I wouldn't even know how to produce them on this forum without much trouble.)


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## muguete

Just a quick hint if you're having a problem with "*gy*": you should pronounce it like British pronounce the "d" in the word "_*d*_uty"! piece of cake


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## Orreaga

OK, I would like to retract my earlier mistake about the "long j" pronunciation of *ly*... but it seems I can no longer erase those!


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## Andris

Orreaga, you are party right in presuming that *ly* is a longer *j*. It used to be something like that, that's where the difference in writing comes from. The letter *y* is a softening marker in Hungarian, so *ly* used to be a soft L, much like the double L in Spanish. Later on, the pronounciation changed, and the difference diminished - now* j* and *ly* are pronounced the same.


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## Norfren

Andris is right, nowadays in the everyday speach the pronanciation of ly = j. However, there might be differences in certain words in certain rural dialects.


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## Ben Jamin

Linnets said:


> So it's ['vɒzɒɾɛli] (first syllable stressed, all short vowels), [ɒ] is the short /a/ in Hungarian, while [ɾ] is the common Hungarian realization for /r/ ([r/ɾ] in Italian, [ʀ/ʁ] in French).


 It seems that everybody forgot to mention that the s in Vasarhelyi is pronounced actually as sh. To write the s sound the Hungarians use sz, just the opposite as in Polish (sz=sh, s=s).


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## Zsanna

No, we didn't... have to mention it because if you look at Linnets' first post, he suggested it himself :


> ['vaːʃaːrɛji 'gʝøːzøː],


[ʃ] = sh (in English)


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