# Car burnings in Paris?



## johnL

I'm not sure why, but I'm really reluctant to post this question. Perhaps I'm afraid of what sort of responses it will get.
I read in the news yesterday (CNN, I believe) an article about renewed violence being committed by immigrant youths in sections of Paris. The article stated that (before this renewed violence) there are 30 to 50 cars burned in Paris in an average week. Is this really true? I know, of course, about the riots a year ago, and there certainly have been a few similar events in some American cities. But 30 to 50 cars _per week _burned in Paris? This really almost leaves me speechless, and I hope someone will say the article was wrong or I misread it.


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## Hockey13

johnL said:


> I'm not sure why, but I'm really reluctant to post this question. Perhaps I'm afraid of what sort of responses it will get.
> I read in the news yesterday (CNN, I believe) an article about renewed violence being committed by immigrant youths in sections of Paris. The article stated that (before this renewed violence) there are 30 to 50 cars burned in Paris in an average week. Is this really true? I know, of course, about the riots a year ago, and there certainly have been a few similar events in some American cities. But 30 to 50 cars _per week _burned in Paris? This really almost leaves me speechless, and I hope someone will say the article was wrong or I misread it.


 
I believe that this whole thing stems from that ever-vicious monster xenophobia. I truly respect every culture I have the time to study, and the French culture is no exception. However, with the beautiful comes the ugly, so there will always be a certain portion of the population that is absolutely convinced that the worst thing that can happen to France is for these immigrants to prosper and assimilate. There are probably many geopolitical factors behind why this seems to be happening only in France, but I refuse to believe that any of them are "the French are, in general, racists" because it just does not appear to be true. It might just be that there are many French people who are angry at the immigrants because they threaten a change to their age-old traditions, language, and they might just work more for less money.

At the same time, we mustn't forget the other instances of xenophobia in Europe (and the US!).

Germany was a touch anti-foreigner and racist in the 20s, 30s, and 40s (much of which can be attributed to the harsh economic conditions of the 20s, powerful leadership of racists, and the desire for a scapegoat). Germany is also struggling to keep their traditions in a modern world where many Arabs, Muslims, and Africans are immigrating into Germany and might pose a threat (for some people) to the average working German and to the relatively monochromatic population.

The US has always had immigrant issues and they always end up being about the same things. The Irish, the Italians, the Jews, the Chinese, the Japanese, Arabs, and many, many more that make up this "melting pot." The immigrating group of people (now the Mexicans and other Latin Americans) are always "stealing jobs," "ruining the economy," and (these days only people in white hoods will openly say this) threatening to impregnate our daughters in order to create a "mongrel race of people."

I think my point is that we shouldn't hasten to question the French people because I'm sure there might be situational factors that are involved in this that are causing the flare-up in the last year or so. However, I am a strong believer that all Westerners need to shift their cultures a bit in order to be less xenophobic and more knowledgeable of the advantage of multiculturalism (just ask a New Yorker like myself!).


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## Hockey13

Tsoman, I'm looking beyond the crime because it's irrelevant to the problem to say "these people are animals." Jailing people never solves a serious problem, and I don't think the issue is youths burning cars. There is often a cause for something like this. I agree that these particular youths should be prosecuted and be given a fair trial, but what about the thousands of other immigrant youths who do nothing illegal but are discriminated against every day?

By the way, the Corning Glass Museum is amazing!


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## Joelline

Hi Hockey,

You say, "Jailing people never solves a serious problem, and I don't think the issue is youths burning cars."  I quote Hemingway in response: "Isn't it pretty to think so?"  Jailing law-breakers does solve problems created by those law-breakers.  The issue is precisely "youths burning cars." 

I don't think the French have treated their minorities or their immigrants so badly. Here in the US, we have had (esp. in the mid-60's) our own "disaffected youths" rioting, burning cars and their own neighborhoods.  Several aid programs were created, but they seemed merely to destroy the black families.  

I do understand that unemployed youths who feel they can never rise in their adopted society are bored, angry, jealous, enraged, whatever.  That fact does not excuse their behavior.  However, most western societies offer social ladders to climb.  The climb is arduous, but it can be done.


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## Tsoman

haha, I worked there for 2 years.

And yes, social problems should be corrected, but if you're the guy who gets his car burned... you know.

I just hear a lot of rationalizations for the actions of terrorists, insurgents, and criminals (especially at college; the academics love talking about that stuff...). But those people who burn cars are doing nothing to solve their problems. I would totally be all for progressive measures, but vandals just beg for a reactionary resonse. And personally, I'm going to side with the xenophobic reactionary (even though that stuff is bad) because the racist didn't burn anyone's car.

The main reason that social engineering measures won't work is because the car burners are just having too much fun dwelling on the hate for their pervceived oppressors.

I'm not liberal or conservative or xenophobic myself... I just hate vandalism and stealing and destruction in general.


Here where I live, the vandals and screw-ups are white (like everyone else). And I hate them too. They posed as friends to my little brothers but stole so much from us and we didn't even know until it was too late.


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## maxiogee

Car-theft is a problem in Dublin, a city of over 1 million inhabitants. The stolen vehicles are often burnt out when the thieves abandn them. I don't know the statistics involved but can assert quite condifently that it is all down to 'disaffected youths'.

'Disaffected youths' have always been more hot-headed and more prepared to give physical expression to their frustrations than their equally disaffected elders. Each society tends to develop patterns by which the disaffection is expressed - be it vandalism of public property, violence against the person, aggravated theft, public drunkenness or drug-taking. It would seem that car-vandalism is Paris's preferred method.

I wouldn't see the 'exotic' nature of one society's method of expression as an indication that their problem is worse than tyhat of any other society.
I don't own a car. The concept that a quantity of cars (anywhere in the world) might be stolen and burnt out isn't as personally threatening to be as it might be to someone who cannot imagine living without a car.


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## Aupick

I don't know what the statistics are, but cars do get burnt in France, and not just when there are riots. It's not incredibly common, and it's not something most people experience, but it does happen. (I speak as someone whose car got burnt a couple of years back. )

I disagree with CNN's assumption that it's immigrants who are causing this. My own sense is that the majority are second- or third-generation, people who have grown up in France and who have no real attachment to whichever North African country their parents or grandparents came from, but who feel rejected by France and have no attachment to this country either, although I'm sure there are immigrants as well as European French kids who are also responsible too. 

The question, of course, is why it happens and I wish I knew the answer. I think each society has different ways of expressing its dysfunctions, and for France I think car crime is way up there. When I was living in Montpellier (where my car got burnt), people said that if you leave your car in the street (few buildings have garages) you should move it every day, even if you don't drive anywhere. People I know who left their car in the same spot for a couple of days frequently had it broken into or stolen. I made the mistake of leaving mine for a week (but it was in a decent neighbourhood!). Cars seem to be a target, a focus for all sorts of crime, but at least it's better than targetting people. Still, in the last few days they seem to have moved on to torching buses, which is clearly worse. So far they have the decency to get everyone off the bus before setting fire to it, but who knows what will happen tomorrow.

Maybe people burn cars because it hurts no one but is visually dramatic and probably gives people a sense of power. It makes a statement. It draws attention to people who normally slip under the radar, gives them a sense of identity that they're so sorely lacking. And it's virtually impossible to find out who's responsible. I think a lot of time boredom plays a big role, too. Unemployment is so high, those who are younger don't bother going to school, there's nothing to do and no sense of purpose.

I've recently moved to Strasbourg, which is the capital of car-burning in France. It's become a New Year's Eve tradition, kind of like fireworks, I suppose. I don't have a garage. I'm going to be very careful about where I park!

EDIT: I see Maxiogee, whose post I hadn't read, has said some similar things - never a bad thing!


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## Iona

I agree with Aupick.
The problem in France is very complex ,as far as Algeria is concerned one must  look right back to the late fifties early sixties to understand the origin of this sad situation .Algeria became  independant through conflict  this appears to have affected the attitude towards people of Algerian origin  in France.The Algerians, many of whom supported French rule and did not want independance, 'chose' to emigrate to France after the Franco-Algerian war.   Lodgings were  built in the suburbs to accomodate their arrival as well as that of the thousands of French who had been living in Algeria since the 19th century 'les pieds noirs';it was the beginning of the 'banlieu ghettos'. A lot of French were hostile to these new arrivals seeing them as the enemy .Many French men had fought in Algeria during their military service and lives had been lost. ON THE OTHER HAND , attrocities had been carried out in Algeria to native Algerians although this has not been made public until fairly recently.We now have a situation where third generation *French kids (*of Algerian origin)have reached a point where they feel totally excluded from  life in a country  they feel no attachment to despite being French . Burning cars is a way of expressing their anger and frustatration ,it's the only *voice* they have.I do not condone it *at all* but I understand where it has come from.Last year French students were seen marching against a law which was to be brought in concerning enployment rights for young people.France was in uproar and a lot of unions and the general public marched with them .How frustrating that must have been to the young suburb population  who of course had naturally received bad press for their actions .It seems that in France  at the moment the press seem to be fueling the flames (no pun intended) hoping for the 'story'  I hope they won't get ;and in the meantime the extreme right movement and Mr Sarcozy are perhaps rubbing their hands in glee.I am speaking about the Franco-Algerian war but of course we must not exclude the other North African countries who also have a story to tell .Car burning in France  is not just a matter of 'hot headedness' ,it's more a case of a wound that has been left to become septic.


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## Joelline

If the French students last year had burned cars and buses (and, recently, people in those buses) to oppose the proposed work-law changes, do you think that "a lot of unions and the general public" would have marched with them?  Who knows how many might march with those of N. African heritage if they had chosen to protest in some other way:  the French students showed that there are many ways to voice oppostion, anger, frustration; there is never only one way; violence is never "the only *voice*" they have!


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## Iona

Joelline .Perhaps it's the only voice they *have* because it's the only voice they *know*.The students were organised, had support and advice  and knew  that violence  was not  the way to go about things .They are also fully accepted into  French society ,had very different upbringings so their profile is different .I repeat I do *not* think what they are doing is acceptable , quite the contrary  ; but I can why and how it has come to this.


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## LV4-26

Joelline said:


> [...]burned cars and buses (and, recently, people in those buses)


That's right. Of course I've heard that. It's absolutely tragic, tragically stupid. It's tragic for the young woman who was burnt and isn't sure to recover from her injuries. It's also tragic for the youngsters (possibly aged between 15 and 17 according to the news) who committed that pathetically stupid act and will probably never be able to sleep at nights for the rest of their lives.

Those people are not fundamentally worse or better than I am. I may have done the same, had I been living in the same conditions, had I met and been influenced by the same people, had I had the same history. 

I may have done the same but then I would have been wrong, wrong, wrong, plain wrong and stupid and barbaric. 

If I had lived in misery and despair, packed in a ghettoized area, in gloomy buildings with no horizon, days on end with nothing to do and nothing to hope for, I may have done the same.

However, that doesn't stop me from hating the act, the atmosphere I can imagine, the collective frenzy, the total abandon of reason, the false feeling of being in one's right, of being macho men, of being strong and right because you are *in a crowd*. A very ugly and disgusting side of  humanity (might be the wrong term : I mean the fact of being a human being).

But then, this already happened before and elsewhere and will sadly happen again, whatever the age of the people, with or without a battle dress...


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## Bonjules

LV4-26 said:


> That's right. Of course I've heard that. It's absolutely tragic, tragically stupid.
> 
> Those people are not fundamentally worse or better than I am. I may have done the same, had I been living in the same conditions, had I met and been influenced by the same people, had I had the same history.
> 
> I may have done the same but then I would have been wrong, wrong, wrong, plain wrong and stupid and barbaric.
> 
> If I had lived in misery and despair, packed in a ghettoized area, in gloomy buildings with no horizon, days on end with nothing to do and nothing to hope for, I may have done the same.


LV4 is as far as I can tell the only French voice so far, I wonder if we will hear more.
This is very painful for those of us who love France, which has always
been a beacon of hope ( maybe a bit romantically)for those who think that people can, when things need to
change, band together and proclaim 'fraternite', e'galite'..
It is sad because it seems that the 'middle class' is settling into
a defensive position in a situation that has long been coming. Even after
last years events I did not hear too many voices demanding true equal
opportunity, dismantling of the 'banlieus', necessary social change...
It is tragic, beause no society can survive healthily for long with major
social issues remaining unsettled; it will create more hate, racism and
repression, a vicious cycle.


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## Hockey13

Joelline said:


> If the French students last year had burned cars and buses (and, recently, people in those buses) to oppose the proposed work-law changes, do you think that "a lot of unions and the general public" would have marched with them? Who knows how many might march with those of N. African heritage if they had chosen to protest in some other way: the French students showed that there are many ways to voice oppostion, anger, frustration; there is never only one way; violence is never "the only *voice*" they have!


 
In some sense, you're right, Joelline, but this is something like saying, "If blacks in Harlem and Newark had just organized and come up with a nice solution to the problem, the riots would have never happened." Violence may not be their only voice, but it's the only one they know how to use. Is that partially their fault? Maybe, but we must, as educated people, steer clear of this sort of logic: blacks were "freed" 150 years ago, so their poverty and increased crime rates are solely their fault.

By the way, there are many instances in human history where violence has been a person's only voice.


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## LV4-26

Bonjules said:


> LV4 is as far as I can tell the only French voice so far, I wonder if we will hear more.


Well, I do hope you'll hear more and, above all, more positive. 
It looks like I somewhat let myself carried away.
I was precisely referring to what happened on Saturday night in Marseille. To be precise, the youngsters in question were not really "a crowd" : they were 5 of them. But a 26-year old black student was badly (60%) burnt and is still kept in artificial coma.
*Violence is highly mimetic*. I guess it even contimanated my previous post.

However, though it may not have been obvious, my general point was pretty much the same as a few that have already been expressed : those events didn't come out of the blue, this doesn't absolve the acts, these kind of problems have existed and still sporadically exist outside France.

Shall I add a couple of causes to those that have already been suggested
- the disappearing influence of the Church
- of the unions
- the dramatic collapse of the communist party.
Don't get me wrong. I'm just saying that I think the aforementionned factors *objectively *contributed to this uproar by strongly damaging the collective spirit, the social link and the hope for a better world.


			
				Bonjules said:
			
		

> [...]France, which has always
> been a beacon of hope ( maybe a bit romantically)[...]


Sorry. Same sh*t everywhere, man.  

HOWEVER
You have to be aware that there are positive signs. That much good work is done by the associations, that many (most?) people in the suburbs fight peacefully to improve things and manage better. That many (most?) of them object to those violences and are determined that voting is better than burning cars.
Yet, surely something has to come from the other side, otherwise the people I've just mentionned will, again, rapidly fall short of arguments to convince the "bus burners"....and themselves.


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## Chaska Ñawi

Hockey13 said:


> Violence may not be their only voice, but it's the only one they know how to use. Agreed.
> 
> By the way, there are many instances in human history where violence has been a person's only voice.  I think you put it better the first time.


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## Bonjules

Iona said:


> I agree with Aupick.
> The problem in France is very complex ,as far as Algeria is concerned one must look right back to the late fifties early sixties to understand the origin of this sad situation .Algeria became independant through conflict this appears to have affected the attitude towards people of Algerian origin in France.


This, I think, is so true.


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## Hockey13

I was thinking specifically of a reaction to an over-agressive oppressor. An extreme example might be the Nazi genocide of non-Germans.


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## Fleurs263

I believe the simple solution lies in how you choose to raise your own children and the examples you set them. This applies to all parents, those of the majority within a society or the minority. If you choose to rear your children with love and a respect for life and people and ultimately with love and respect for them, that will be their finite experience and their state of being. The empowerment of children leads to the empowerment of adults. (Empowerment does not mean leave them to do whatever they want ... it includes guidance, but not abusive behaviours which leave children with feelings they can not express until adulthood, if ever.)  I must state clearly my opinion concerns all children ... they are the future and the natural evolutionary state.  Children are the one group who encompass all cultures who have no rights in reality. Most countries fail to acknoweldge the United Nations Rights of the Child; England being one of the most guilty!


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## Markus

50 cars a week seems like a lot, but you have to remember that there are 11 million people living in and around Paris.


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## Luke Warm

Fleurs263 said:


> I believe the simple solution lies in how you choose to raise your own children and the examples you set them.


 
I agree entirely. While many teenagers and young adults regardless of social strata will rebel, a loving upbringing will usually at least subdue that rebellion and restrict it from such destructive actions as are being discussed. However, we shouldn't downplay the influence of larger social issues. For one, a lack of opportunity (or the perceived lack of opportunity) will lead even the most lovingly raised children down the wrong path. If a teenager sees no hope of constructive success, than destruction seems an immediate and powerful alternative. Therefore, education (more specifically skills training) and opportunities for job placement are the best way to prevent violence. I wonder how many of these people burning cars and buses are on any kind of career track or have full-time jobs. 

Another hurdle though are cultures that discourage success (usually minority cultures with a history of being an unaccepted sub-culture). In these cultures, finding success can be equated with selling-out. Still, I agree that the changes have to start with children, though the success of the parents is so interconnected to the success of their parents that the problem cannot be approached only on one end or the other.


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## LV4-26

Luke Warm said:


> I wonder how many of these people burning cars and buses are on any kind of career track or have full-time jobs.


Not one of them, I reckon.


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## Luke Warm

I am aware that both the French education and employment systems are due for an overhaul. Hopefully the incoming government can make some positive changes. It isn't even close to being too late, but the problems of which car burnings are evident are also not going away, so I hope the French people (and probably more so the politicians) are open and flexible enough to make the changes. The end result should be a more competitive private sector which should create more jobs, though hopefully not at too great a loss to traditional small businesses and social security. Though from what I've read, the public sector could also do with an increase in efficiency. Call me an optimist, but I've got a good feeling about the future, especially if Segolene Royal wins.


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## übermönch

Every single vile crime has some touchy social and psychological background - neither is easy to find - so, in the meantime, let jails right the wrongs.  
I am not familiar with the French educational system, but most probably, it's to blame. PISA studies had prooven that in France, along with Germany, the success at school strongly depended on the social background. I can tell what's to reform here before the undereducated mobs start hanging the bourgoisie on lamp-posts, but it'd be off-topic!  



I actually keep wondering why the rough youth of Hamburg and Berlin doesn't burn anything... maybe it's that Germany lacks rebellious traditions?


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## Fleurs263

Luke Warm said:


> I agree entirely. While many teenagers and young adults regardless of social strata will rebel, a loving upbringing will usually at least subdue that rebellion and restrict it from such destructive actions as are being discussed. However, we shouldn't downplay the influence of larger social issues. For one, a lack of opportunity (or the perceived lack of opportunity) will lead even the most lovingly raised children down the wrong path.
> 
> To reply to you, lukewarm ... yes I agree with what you're saying. There are without doubt enormous pressures on young adults, some which I personally have no experience, or have experienced mildly. For  example, does anyone remember when you had to wait until after either 11 p.m. or
> midnight to watch Michael Jackson's "Thriller" video. It was feared it may frighten or disturb  many people. Nowadays, children can be seen dressed in similar costumes (to the "Thriller" video)  in a musical video and a movie like "The Texas Chain-saw Massacre" has cult status; yet on release it was deemed offensive. My point is that whilst I, as a young adult, wished to be into whatever was fashionable, nowadays young children and young adults  are watching music videos which would have been deemed as soft porn when I was younger. I don't understand what has happened to the system of censorship and whilst I am all for evolution and progress, children are always born innocent and that will never change.  To introduce them too early to violence, sex etc is abusive and damaging ... emotionally they're still at the atage of "I'm running around like a lunatic because I'm  really a train" stage, when the media is telling them they should be something/somebody else or doing other things, like going down the mall to shop or buy a new mobile, get a boyfriend/ girlfriend etc ..


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## Luke Warm

You raise a good point about social issues with which parents must compete.  Unchecked capitalism, marked by unconscientious and irresponsible marketing are sometimes unfortunately to much for a loving parent to compete with.  However, providing a strong basis is a parent's best hope that their child will make sound decisions later in life and I would have to believe that people with such a supportive childhood are more likely to find their personal success in life.

But perhaps that's a topic for another thread...


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## Qcumber

Having one foot on either side of the Channel, I hope it's not what the French call: _le commencement de la fin_ "the beginning of the end" ... Unless a war of conquest has started - a new form of war that conventional strategies can't cope with and overcome. In that case, the situation is tragic for once France has fallen, the rest of Europe will collapse. 
It takes always a long time for people to realize what's going on at the historical level, and when they have realized it, they'd rather ignore it than admit they made fools of themselves by not foreseeing what was in store for them.
If things get ugly, improvident rulers will fly to safe countries and let their peoples fend for themselves.


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