# ο μόρτης



## marilou

Γεία σας παιδιά, βρήσκω πολλές φωρές στά ρεμπέτικα τραγούδια αυτή η λέξη...τί σημαίνει? Υπάρχει σχέση με τήν λέξη morte που στα ιταλικά σημείνει θάνατος? Ευχαριστώ και σιγνώμη για τα λάθη!


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## modus.irrealis

Αν κοιτάξεις στο λεξικό που βρίσκεται στο http://www.komvos.edu.gr/dictionaries/dictonline/DictOnLineTri.htm, λέει γι' αυτή τη λέξη,



> *μόρτης* ο [mórtis] O11 θηλ. *μόρτισσα* [mórtisa] O27α *:* (παρωχ.) μάγκας ή αλήτης.  *μορτάκι* το YΠOKOP.  [ίσως τουρκ. (λαϊκ.) morti `πεθαμένος΄ _-ς _< ιταλ. morti πληθ. της λ. morto `πεθαμένος΄· _μόρτ(ης) -ισσα_]



Έτσι φαίνεται πως στο τέλος προέρχεται απ' τα Ιταλικά, αλλά όχι κατευθείαν.


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## marilou

Ευχαριστώ για την απάντιση!


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## Spectre scolaire

There are two reasons why the suggested etymology is improbable:

*α*) _M__orphological consideration_

The adaptation of _sexus _in Greek - i.e. reference to a _person_ in contrast to _genus_ which is only related to _grammatical_ gender - concerning Turkish nouns ending in *–**ı* and *–i*, seems to be without exception like the following:

καδής < Turk. kadı, “judge of Islamic canon law”, μουστερής < Turk. müşteri, “customer”, σπαχής < Turk. sipahi, “cavalry soldıer” -not to mention the numerous words ending in –τζής which formally would belong to the same category.

The more numerous category of Turk. words without _sexus_ ending in *–**ı*, *–i* or even in *–**ü* and being adapted to Greek as neutrum words in *–ί*, give additional weight to the argument. One contrastive ex.: Turk. hal, “(bad) situation” and halı, “carpet”, will be adapted to Greek as χάλι and χαλί respectively.

Turk. morti would have been adapted to Greek as *μορτής.

*b*) _Semantic consideration_

Turk. morti, a slang word meaning “dead” is not quite in the same semantic sphere as the meaning of the Greek word μόρτης (see info provided by _modus.irrealis_).

As for Italian loanwords in Greek, the mentioned morphological restriction is less absolute, but again, if the _etymon_ were to be It. morti (which is even a plural form!), we are left with the same semantic problem.

So, what is the solution?

It is difficult to say for sure, but it is tempting to relate the origin of the word μόρτης to Turk. mert, “brave, manly man”. In Greek there are numerous examples of a change e/o – take f.ex. γεφύρι/γιοφύρι. One could probably find a better ex. where the vowel carries the accent. In any case, the morphological and the semantic problems are solved.


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## ireney

Babiniotis' dictionary has to say the following:



> <ιταλ.(becca)morti "τυμβωρύχος -νεκροθάφτης" (πληθ.), με παράλειψη του πρώτου συνθετικού.



He then goes on to give the etymology of becca and morto which both derive ultimately from Latin.


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## Spectre scolaire

Obviously, professor Babiniotis must have a reason for postulating this etymology. If not, we’re back to point zero. Etymology is no guesswork – it needs an argumentation. Basically, there is no difference between the etymology presented by the lexicographers of the Triandaphyllides Institute (cf. quotation by _modus.irrealis_) and that of Babiniotis. Both imply that the origin of the word μόρτης is linked to death.

I am sure there is something here that I don’t understand!

PS: Any further etymology of _becca_ and _morto_ is without any relevance in our case.


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## ireney

Which is why I didn't quote it 

I am at a loss too since professor Babiniotis does not explain how μόρτης came to have its current meaning in Greek but I trust he knows more than I do about etymology 

I just googled the word μόρτης by the way and I stumbled upon the following message:



> Το λεξικό μου λέει ότι η εμυτολογία της λέξης "μόρτης" προέρχεται από το ιταλικό mordace που σημαίνει κάτι σαν δηκτικός, πειραχτικός.
> Δεν έχω καταλάβει γιατί ο μόρτης είναι πιο θανατηφόρος από το μάγκα (για γυναίκες?).



aaaand this



> Το 1854, τα Γαλλικά στρατεύματα Κατοχής, έφεραν τη χολέρα στην Αθήνα, που άδειασε από τη μιά στιγμή στην άλλη. Στου Ψυρρή έμειναν μόνο οι "κουτσαβάκηδες" όπως τους λέγανε, λόγω του ότι ήσαν και πάμπτωχοι. Ανέλαβαν λοιπόν (γιά περνταροδεκάρες) να θάβουν τους νεκρούς, και γι αυτό τους είπαν "μόρτηδες", από το αλλικό "mort" που σημαίνει πεθαμένος.
> .



(see also the last message on that page which is too long to quote)

Source


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## Spectre scolaire

Thanks, Ειρήνη, for an extremely interesting link! 

For the moment, just one comment:

This reminds me of two comedies of Aristophanes which I read (too) many years ago. When reading this stuff you need good commentaries, and I remember there were some textual instances where classical philologists of great reputation were at a loss as to the meaning of certain jokes. One could easily understand the wording of Aristophanes; quite another thing was to grasp why this was funny – which it obviously was. The problem is that the event to which the author alludes is not known from other sources. The ancient public might as well have roared with laughter; we just sit there in complete embarrassment in front of our books and our dictionaries...

In etymology, knowledge about _how a word emerged_ is often crucial – to such an extent that purely linguistic criteria may be of secondary importance. After browsing through this part of Ρεμπέτικο φόρουμ, the word μόρτης seems to be a case in point! Another one may be παρατσούκλια in Greek – after the bearer of the nickname has passed away. 

By the way, there is still no satisfactory solution as to the etymology of the word ρεμπέτικα. If Stathis Gauntlett could not find one, I think this may be another “aristophanean joke syndrome”. Perhaps μόρτης is somehow more lucky...


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## marilou

Ευχαριστώ ολους για τις ενδιαφέροντες απαντίσεις, από ολα πού διάβαζα νομίζω οτι κάποια σχέση με morte πρέπει να εχει γιατί η λέξη μόρτις την βρήσκω στούς στίχους οπου αναφέρονται ναρκοτικά...ετσι μου φαίνεται!


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