# Short and long imperative forms



## 123xyz

To what extent are the long imperative/subjunctives forms used, i.e. under what circumstances, and what undertones do they carry in comparison to the short forms? To provide an example, what would it mean to say "menjél" instead of "menj" or "adjad" instead of "add"?


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## tomtombp

To me it gives emphasis for example when urging somebody: "adjad már!" or "adod már?", "menjél már!" ("még mindig itt vagy?")


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## Olivier0

I think the short form is more frequent especially in writing, and the long form maybe a bit popular/uneducated, except of course when it is the only one (egyél, igyál, vigyél, etc.)
-- Olivier


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## 123xyz

There are verbs where the long form is the only one? Wiktionary provides "égy" as an alternative to "egyél", "vígy" as an alternative to "vigyél", etc...


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## Olivier0

The one-syllable verb roots ending in voyel+_sz_(+_ik_) are a special group of verbs: _tesz vesz lesz visz hisz eszik iszik._
The -_sz_- appears only at present indicative, and _-gy _is used instead of -_j_ for imperative, with a long voyel at the 2nd person sg.: _vesz_->_végy_, except for _hisz_->_higgy_, and _eszik _and _iszik _which have no short form.
_Vígy _is a bit archaic, like in _ne vígy minket kísértésbe _"lead us not into temptation" (the Lord's prayer, also archaic in English).
I read somewhere that the long forms were originally the forms for -_ik _verbs, then the distinction was lost and both forms survived. Since _eszik _and _iszik _are the only -_ik _verbs in this group, this may be the reason why even old texts do not use *_égy _or in this meaning *_így_, which I think are a mistake in the wiktionary table for eszik and iszik.
-- Olivier


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## Zsanna

Unfortunately it is (another) question that would demand a fairly long and complicated answer because there is also the difference between the forms in the subjective and the objective conjugations.



Olivier0 said:


> I think the short form is more frequent especially in writing, and the long form maybe a bit popular/uneducated*, except of course when it is the only one (egyél, igyál, vigyél, etc.) * I haven't found any reference to "uneducated", Olivier.


According to my Nyelvművelő Kézikönyv (1.kötet 619.old.), it seems to be the opposite: the short forms (in subjective conjugation, 2nd person, for non -ik ending verbs e.g. menj/menjél, adj/adjál) are referred to a stronger order, meanwhile the longer forms express a milder one (or just a demand) in _popular_ and _casual_ speech.
Their examples:
Aludj már! <---> Aludjál szépen, kisfiam!
Menj innen! <---> Menjél egy kicsit odább!

Meanwhile in the objective conjugation (e.g. add - adjad), they make a definite distinction between short = more definite / long = milder order and they say that even in the more sophisticated written forms there is a tendency for the use of the short forms.


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## Akitlosz

The long forms are older. The short forms are shortening. There is no real difference in the meaning!

If you want to talk more and/or more beautiful then use the longer forms!
If you want to talk less and/or  more forcefully then use the short forms!


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## tomtombp

Zsanna said:


> Unfortunately it is (another) question that would demand a fairly long and complicated answer because there is also the difference between the forms in the subjective and the objective conjugations.
> 
> 
> According to my Nyelvművelő Kézikönyv (1.kötet 619.old.), it seems to be the opposite: the short forms (in subjective conjugation, 2nd person, for non -ik ending verbs e.g. menj/menjél, adj/adjál) are referred to a stronger order, meanwhile the longer forms express a milder one (or just a demand) in _popular_ and _casual_ speech.
> Their examples:
> Aludj már! <---> Aludjál szépen, kisfiam!
> Menj innen! <---> Menjél egy kicsit odább!
> 
> Meanwhile in the objective conjugation (e.g. add - adjad), they make a definite distinction between short = more definite / long = milder order and they say that even in the more sophisticated written forms there is a tendency for the use of the short forms.


I am here to disagree as I mentioned To me the longer forms are the ones that express stronger order.

It's mainly the "szépen" and "the kicsit" that make the order milder in your example sentences. Removing them from the orders using the long form make the orders using the long forms much more strong than how strong the short form versions in your examples were.
i.e. "Aludjál már!" is stronger than "Aludj már!" "Aludj már" is more of a begging than an order to me. I can imagine someone shouting "aludjál már!" but not so much "aludj már!"

However, I would never say "adjad ide a könyvet, légyszíves" unless I wanted to sound old-fashioned/rural. The same for "odább". I'd never use it and I've never heard it. It's "odébb" or "arrébb". Even "arrább" is more frequently heard than "odább".
I guess your book is a pre-war edition You'd better ditch it

P.S. There are many Goggle search hits for "odább" so there's something wrong with my Hungarian?


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## tomtombp

tomtombp said:


> However, I would never say "adjad ide a könyvet, légyszíves"


Ok, I see that this is in line with what your book says, so keep the book if you like it


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## Zsanna

Thank you very much, I will.
I have to admit that I have found several times some examples a bit outdated in it (my copy was published in 1983!) but I trust Grétsy and Kovalovszszky. I've never managed to catch them making a mistake - apart from the fact that there are not many who did better than e.g. Grétsy for explaining how our language works.
But then: de gustibus...


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## Akitlosz

I agree with Zsanna, and I disagree with tomtombp.


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## tomtombp

This article I just bumped into says that the short version is the simplified version (the one that's used today) of the old variant:

http://susside.blogter.hu/323446/mond_es_mondd_update


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## Zsanna

Tom, I can't open your link above.


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## Olivier0

I can open it and here is the only relevant part:


> [mondd]
> ez a mondjad rövidebb, és manapság használatos változata.
> 
> | 31 | putty | 2009-02-19 09:19:51
> _Érdekességként, hátha valaki nem tudja:_
> *A mondd második d-je igei személyrag*, nem pedig a felszólító mód jele. Módjel nincs benne, éppen az marad ki a hosszú alakból: mond(ja)d. Persze ez nemcsak a mondd esetén van így, hanem minden E/2., tárgyas ragozású, felsz. módú rövid alaknál: süsd, nézd, várd, kezdd stb.


-- Olivier


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## Zsanna

Thanks, Olivier.
Now the only thing to find out is what this "E/2 alak" is...


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## Olivier0

Egyes szám 2. személy = second-person singular, so they are saying that the final -d in _mondd_ or in _várd_ is not a special imperative mark with personal mark "zero" (no mark), but the usual -_d_ personal mark with the -_j_ imperative mark dropped when shortening the full form _mondjad, várjad_.
-- Olivier


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## Zsanna

Thank you again! 
I hope foreign learners don't think it is a "proper term"... Or is it? (In my time, it was 1.sz. 2.szem.)
But we are getting really off topic. (The trouble is that already the link does not seem to be too much to the point.)


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## franknagy

A book for foreigners translated the "Felszólító mód" to "Imperative and Subjunctive Mood".
If it expresses Subjunctive then the longer form is used. If it expresses Imperative the the shorter one.

Hagyd békén az öcsémet! = Leave my brother alone.
Azt mondta neked, hogy hagyjad békén az öccsé? = Did she told you that you left her brother alone?


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## gorilla

When I was in primary school around 1997, our teacher used E/1., T/2. etc. (we also jokingly pronounced it as "eper" and "teper")


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## Zsanna

Frank, I think the second example is the same imperative... Maybe something like: _Azt akarom, hogy hagyd/hagyjad békén az öcsémet_ (= I want you to leave my brother alone) would be better? Only even in this case both forms can be used.

Gorilla, it certainly has the advantage to be shorter. (Was it then "eperegy" and "teperkettő"?)


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## tomtombp

Sorry, I was abroad and just got back. It seems that the link I inserted above can't be opened from Hungary.
Edit: After I sent this post I tried the link again and it opened Sorry.


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