# how to properly translate relative clauses (that, where... )



## stella1192

Hey guys,
I need some help with translating sentences that include very long relative clauses.
I know the general rule, but it gets very confusing when I have to use it for sentences that are much longer.
For example I have these 2 sentences:

1) In the comment section of an article of the online newspaper Japan today, many users say that they have witnessed situation where they were avoided on the train, they were discriminated against in the workplace, and they were expected to be people working as English teacher, unable to speak Japanese.

2)Because of all these things that happened to me, I started looking for proof that I wasn’t the only person being discriminated against, and that there were other people victims of my same problems

My translation of number 1) is
1) JapanTodayというオンライン新聞コメント欄で多くのユーザーは日本で自分のソフトレーシズム軽々について話す。大概、電車に避けられたり、職場に差別したり、日本語話せない人で、英語教師のように働いたり、することを見舞われた。
2) このような起こった状況から、私しか差別してもらわなかった他証明を探して、同じ問題苦しがったほうかの人があったかどうかを尋ねて始めた。


----------



## ànima-lliure

I would not use direct translations for sentences this long.

1. Japan Todayというニュースサイトのある記事のコメント欄では、多くの人々が電車で避けられたり、職場で差別されたり、日本語の話せない英会話講師扱いされたりしたことがあると言った。

2. こんなことを経験したから、私は私が唯一に差別された人じゃないと、同じ経験のある人々がいるという証拠を探し出しました。

Trying to literally translate expressions like "to witness situation where oneself ~" into Japanese would cause disasters, I think.


----------



## DaylightDelight

stella1192 said:


> 1) In the comment section of an article of the online newspaper Japan today, many users say that they have witnessed situation where they were avoided on the train, they were discriminated against in the workplace, and they were expected to be people working as English teacher, unable to speak Japanese.





ànima-lliure said:


> 1. Japan Todayというニュースサイトのある記事のコメント欄では、多くの人々が電車で避けられたり、職場で差別されたり、日本語の話せない英会話講師扱いされたりしたことがあると言った。


It is largely a matter of style and personal preference, but for #1 I like to place the subject and the verb more close together.  So, my try:
1. Japan Todayというニュースサイトのある記事には、電車の中で避けられることがある、職場で差別されることがある、あるいは日本語の話せない英会話講師だと思われることがある、といったコメントを多くの人が投稿している。


ànima-lliure said:


> Trying to literally translate expressions like "to witness situation where oneself ~" into Japanese would cause disasters, I think.


True.  So in my version I translated it with "されることがある", largely paraphrasing the sentence.



stella1192 said:


> 2)Because of all these things that happened to me, I started looking for proof that I wasn’t the only person being discriminated against, and that there were other people victims of my same problems





ànima-lliure said:


> 2．こんなことを経験したから、私は私が唯一に差別された人じゃないという証拠を探し出しました。そして他の人々も同じ経験があるということを悟りました。


ànima's #2 has small glitches here and there (like the use of 唯一*に*, 探し出しました or 悟る).
2. このような経験から、差別されているのが私だけではない（or 私だけが差別されているのではない）、他の人々も同じような苦労をしているのだという証拠を探しはじめました。

In case you are interested, here goes my opinion about your translation:

"こんなことを経験したから" sounds somewhat awkward.  "こんなことを経験したので" would sound better.
"唯一に" is simply wrong. Use it without "に"  like "唯一私だけが", or use it with "の" like "差別された唯一の人".
"探し出す" puts an emphasis on "to find out", not "to look for" so it is not appropriate in this case.


----------



## 810senior

stella1192 said:


> 1) In the comment section of an article of the online newspaper Japan today, many users say that they have witnessed situation where they were avoided on the train, they were discriminated against in the workplace, and they were expected to be people working as English teacher, unable to speak Japanese.
> 
> 2)Because of all these things that happened to me, I started looking for proof that I wasn’t the only person being discriminated against, and that there were other people victims of my same problems
> 
> My translation of number 1) is
> 1) JapanTodayというオンライン新聞コメント欄で多くのユーザーは日本で自分のソフトレーシズム軽々について話す。大概、電車に避けられたり、職場に差別したり、日本語話せない人で、英語教師のように働いたり、することを見舞われた。
> 2) このような起こった状況から、私しか差別してもらわなかった他証明を探して、同じ問題苦しがったほうかの人があったかどうかを尋ねて始めた。


I wonder if there might be superfluous sentences because I couldn't find the one equivalent to the underlined translation in the original text.

Anyway, here's my attempt:
(1) JapanTodayというオンラインニュースサイトのある記事のコメント欄では、電車内で避けられている、職場で差別を受けている、あるいは日本語を話せない英語教師みたいな人だと思われている、などという心境を多くのユーザーが吐露（とろ）していた。
(2) このような経験から、私は自分だけが差別されているのではないと、同じ問題を抱えた人が他にもいるという、証拠を探し始めていた。


----------



## ànima-lliure

DaylightDelight said:


> In case you are interested, here goes my opinion about your translation:
> 
> "こんなことを経験したから" sounds somewhat awkward.  "こんなことを経験したので" would sound better.



I'll take that. I think it's because "ので” suits 敬語 more than "から".



DaylightDelight said:


> "唯一に" is simply wrong. Use it without "に"  like "唯一私だけが", or use it with "の" like "差別された唯一の人".



If that is the case, 私だけが差別された人じゃないと would be appropriate since だけ already connotes limitation.

But could you explain this usage to me then? Is it an isolated case?

「…女子の天性容色を重んずるが故に、其*唯一に*重んずる所の容よりも心の勝れたるこそ善けれと記して、文章に力を付けたるは巧なりと雖も、唯是れ文章家の巧として見る可きのみ。其以下婦人の悪徳を並べ立てたる箇条は読んで字の如く悪徳ならざるはなし。心騒しく…」

— 福沢諭吉、「女大学評論」



DaylightDelight said:


> "探し出す" puts an emphasis on "to find out", not "to look for" so it is not appropriate in this case.



You have a point.

About 悟る、I misread the original post. Edited accordingly, but I did not change 唯一に or 探し出す for the context of the thread.


----------



## DaylightDelight

ànima-lliure said:


> If that is the case, 私だけが差別された人じゃないと would be appropriate since だけ already connotes limitation.


Yes, 私だけが差別された would be enough, but 唯一 can be added for emphasis:
私だけが差別された < ただ私だけが差別された, ただ一人私だけが差別された, 唯一私だけが差別された.



ànima-lliure said:


> But could you explain this usage to me then? Is it an isolated case?
> 
> 「…女子の天性容色を重んずるが故に、其*唯一に*重んずる所の容よりも心の勝れたるこそ善けれと記して、文章に力を付けたるは巧なりと雖も、唯是れ文章家の巧として見る可きのみ。其以下婦人の悪徳を並べ立てたる箇条は読んで字の如く悪徳ならざるはなし。心騒しく…」


I think this is a dated usage -- Well, I'm a little embarrassed to admit I don't fully understand this text.
Also, scanned text seen on Google Books shows that this 唯一 here is subscripted ゆいいち, not usual ゆいいつ (also dated? I'm not sure).  女大学評論
On the whole, I'd say that this use of 唯一に is not very common in today's Japanese.


----------



## 810senior

In the place of ただ(merely), 唯一に grammatically makes sense but sounds outdated to some extent, whereas 唯一 is fine even though it too sounds a bit literal.


----------



## frequency

stella1192 said:


> 1) In the comment section of an article of the online newspaper Japan today, many users say that they have witnessed situation where they were avoided on the train, they were discriminated against in the workplace, and they were expected to be people working as English teacher, unable to speak Japanese.
> 2)Because of all these things that happened to me, I started looking for proof that I wasn’t the only person being discriminated against, and that there were other people victims of my same problems



Stella, I'm sorry to say that the original sentences aren't very good.

1) In the comment section of an article of the online newspaper Japan today, many users say that they have witnessed the situation where they were avoided on the train, or they were discriminated against in the workplace.
JapanTodayというオンラインニュースサイトのある記事のコメント欄では、電車内で避けられている、職場で差別を受けているなどという心境を多くのユーザーが吐露（とろ）していた。(by 810)
_
,and they were *expected* to be people working as English teacher, unable to speak Japanese._
This isn't clear. If this is,

1) They (users) seemed to be people working as English teacher and unable to speak Japanese.
彼らユーザーは日本語を話せない英語教師のようである。
Or,
2) They were considered by Japanese people to be the people working as English teacher and unable to speak Japanese.
あるいは日本語を話せない英語教師みたいな人だと思われている。(by 810, and this is the reason for triggering the discrimination)

I don't know which is what the writer wants to say. If it's 2,


810senior said:


> (1) JapanTodayというオンラインニュースサイトのある記事のコメント欄では、電車内で避けられている、職場で差別を受けている、あるいは日本語を話せない英語教師みたいな人だと思われている、などという心境を多くのユーザーが吐露（とろ）していた。



2) Because of all these things that happened to me, I started looking for proof that I wasn’t the only person being discriminated against, and that there were other people victims of my same problems

I don't know, but if the writer wants to say that the similar things happened to him or her before? If so,
2) Because of all these things that *also* happened to me *before*, _I started looking for proof to show that I wasn’t the only person being discriminated and that there were other people who became the victim of the same problem._
(2) 自分にもこのような経験が以前にあり、私は自分だけが差別されているのではないと、同じ問題を抱えた人が他にもいるという、証拠を探し始めていた。

(Special thanks: 810. 使ってごめん！but excellent!）


----------



## stella1192

Mmm ok I understand your corrections and yes they definitely make sense, thank you.
To answer frequency's question, what I meant in sentence n.1 is what you assumed in here


frequency said:


> 2) They were considered by Japanese people to be the people working as English teacher and unable to speak Japanese.
> あるいは日本語を話せない英語教師みたいな人だと思われている。(by 810, and this is the reason for triggering the discrimination)


sorry, my english writing needs to get better.
For sentence 2), it is an extract from an essay I am writing, that's why it doesn't make much sense, sorry.


----------



## frequency

stella1192 said:


> Mmm ok I understand your corrections and yes they definitely make sense, thank you.
> To answer frequency's question, what I meant in sentence n.1 is what you assumed in here
> 
> sorry, my english writing needs to get better.
> For sentence 2), it is an extract from an essay I am writing, that's why it doesn't make much sense, sorry.



No, I'm sorry to say so to you! Forgive me! Okay, then they seem to be the people working as (like a) English teacher and unable to speak Japanese. And this could be the reason for the discrimination. See #4 by 810 again to check


----------

