# FR: il, le, lui - elle, la, lui



## ssp2000

I would like clarification on when to use "elle" for "her".  I am used to it in the context of "she", but I get confused when to use it for "her" and I hope someone can tell me the general rule.  Here examples for the usage that I know or have read:

1- J'ai lui invitee a dinner - I invited her to dinner (i.o. pronoun)
2- J'ai la vue hier - I saw her yesterday (d.o. pronoun)
*3- Il pense a elle* - I believe this translates to "he thinks of her" (they "a", not "de").

The 3d example is the one that throws me.  How do I know when to use "elle" for "her" and please feel free to give other examples. 

Merci d'avanvce.

*Moderator note:* Multiple threads merged to create this one.


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## hamer1970

I'd like to know this too but one thing I can tell you is that object pronouns come before the auxiliary verb. 

Je lui ai vue, etc.


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## Nil-the-Frogg

1- Je *l'ai* invitée a dinner - I invited her to dinner (i.o. pronoun)
2- Je *l'ai* vue hier - I saw her yesterday (d.o. pronoun)
*3- Il pense à elle* - I believe this translates to "he thinks of her" (they "a", not "de"). I would have translated as "he thinks about her."

Here, you use "elle" because of the "à". As to the general rule... I'm not sure.


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## tilt

Your 3rd example is the only correct one! 

I invited her to dinner = _Je l'ai invitée à dîner_.
 I saw her yesterday  = _Je l'ai vue hier_.
He thinks of her = _Il pense à elle_.

You're confused because you made a mistake: the pronoun is an indirect object in the 3rd sentence only. It is direct in 1st and 2nd examples. Then you can consider that _la _(shorten to _l'_ before a vowel) is for direct objects, and _elle _for indirect ones. _La _is to be placed before the verb, whereas _elle _stays after the preposition.


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## Paf le chien

ssp2000 said:


> 1- J'ai lui invitee a dinner - I invited her to dinner (i.o. pronoun)
> 2- J'ai la vue hier - I saw her yesterday (d.o. pronoun)
> *3- Il pense a elle* - I believe this translates to "he thinks of her" (they "a", not "de").



D'abord, quelques corrections dans les deux premiers exemples :

1- *Je l'ai* invit*é*e *à* d*în*er - I invited her to dinner (*d*.o. pronoun)
2- *Je l'ai* vue hier - I saw her yesterday (d.o. pronoun)

Both are the same tense: passé composé. They are identical for your example purpose as they are both COD of "avoir". And here, *"l'*" stands for "elle" !



ssp2000 said:


> *3- Il pense à elle* - I believe this translates to "he thinks of her"



Here, "elle" is a personal pronoun, but _after a preposition_ (à):

1e s. moi
2e s. toi
3e s. lui/*elle*
1e p. nous
2e p. vous
3e p. eux/elles

Note that it is _*not*_ "il/elle" (he/she) but "lui/elle" (him/her).

I hope I was clear enough to enlight you both


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## juliobenjimino

i was taught that 'lui' is used instead of 'la' when the 'her' in question actually means 'to her', even if the 'to' is not used in english. For example:

I saw her = Je l'ai vu (the 'la ai' is contracted because of the vowel)
I speak _to her =_ je lui parle
I ask her = je lui demande (the french ask 'to' people therefore use lui)
I like her = je l'aime (you don't like 'to' people)
I'm giving her a present = je lui donne un cadeau (because you give presents 'to' people, in both languages)

As for lui vs elle, the choice yours:
i'm buying her a present = je lui achete un cadeau
I'm buying a present for her = j'achete un cadeau pour elle

as you can see 'elle' is used if you feel like putting 'her' at the end of a phrase after a preposition (for, to, at, with etc), and 'lui' used if you feel like putting 'her' in the middle of the sentence, before the verb.

Michel Thomas explains this _very_ well if you can get hold of his tapes.

Phew!


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## tilt

juliobenjimino said:


> I saw her = Je l'ai vu (the 'le ai' is contracted because of the vowel)


In this example, _l'_ stands for _la_, not _le_. It's obvious if you don't use the composed past: _I see her = je la vois.

__Lui _is not used instead of _la _nor _elle_ but _à elle_. It works only with this preposition, but even with it, it's not always possible: _Je pense à elle_ can't be said _Je lui pense_.
The worst is I can't find any simple and logical explanation for this. 
Phew too.


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## juliobenjimino

but how about 'je lui achete un cadeau' - isn't 'lui' used then instead or 'pour elle'?


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## tilt

No, with _acheter_, both prepositions _pour _and _à_ can be used:_ J'achète un cadeau à ma copine -> Je lui achète un cadeau._


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## hamer1970

Would it be correct to say that you'd use lui when the preposition in a verb is implicit, and preposition + elle when the preposition is explicit? 

Je lui donne les chaussures. (implicit)
J'ai choisi les chaussures pour elle. (explicit)


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## tilt

I'm not sure to understand what you mean by implicit or explicit... 
And anyway, it's correct to say _Je lui ai choisi les chaussures_.

I realise that what I said about _lui _replacing _à elle _and not another preposition is surely wrong, since it replaces _pour_ _elle _here...
I should learn the real rule rather than trying to guess it.


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## pheelineerie

tilt said:


> No, with _acheter_, both prepositions _pour _and _à_ can be used:_ J'achète un cadeau à ma copine -> Je lui achète un cadeau._


 

"_Je lui achète un cadeau_" ok, right: I'm buying her a gift.
But wait, doesn't "_J'achète un cadeau à ma copine"_ mean "I buy a gift *from* my girlfriend"?


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## tilt

pheelineerie said:


> But wait, doesn't "_J'achète un cadeau à ma copine"_ mean "I buy a gift *from* my girlfriend"?


It can mean both, in fact. And _je lui achète..._ does too.
Several other verbs have such an ambiguity in French (_louer_ or _payer_, for example).


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## dylanG3893

Bonjour!

I recently watched a concert video of my favorite french band Superbus, and in the concert the main singer said something like "Mais vous etes mes amis?" and they screamed Oui!, and then another signer asked the same question and they screamed oui, and then the main signer pointed to another guy and said "et lui?", and then repeated it to another guy "et lui?" then she continued to say "et moi? moi plus eh?". Anyway, I would like to know, why is she using 'lui' here? I know it's an indirect pronoun if you want to say something like "je lui dis l'histoire", but just using it alone like that?? Why doesn't she say "et il?" why lui?

Merci de tout ta aide!
Dylan 

PS, if you'd like to watch the video I'm talking about to get a better understanding, private message me! Merci.


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## gabrigabri

Hi Dylan,

Et moi? or: et je?

Et toi? or: et tu?


I think it is the same.


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## dylanG3893

Oh, ok... so this is like using a prepositional pronoun. Right?

You would say: Je fais... Tu fais.. Elle fait... Il fait...

But when you use a preposition it changes to this:

À, De, Comme Moi
À, De, Comme Toi
À, De, Comme Lui

So lui is just a prepositional pronoun?

To take it a step further, it's being used here as a standalone pronoun, like in Spanish you would use "y yo?, y tu?, y ella?" and like in Italian (I use this example for you Gabri) it would be "E io? E tu? E lei? E lui?" but for some reason in French this standalone pronoun takes the prepositional pronoun? Like Moi, Toi, Lui, Leur (So essentially this is like Me, Te, etc in Italian, no?)

Ok thanks!


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## Maître Capello

No, this is not the indirect pronoun but the *disjunctive* pronoun… See this thread and the links it contains…


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## Outsider

dylanG3893 said:


> "et lui?" then she continued to say "et moi? moi plus eh?". Anyway, I would like to know, why is she using 'lui' here? I know it's an indirect pronoun if you want to say something like "je lui dis l'histoire", but just using it alone like that?? Why doesn't she say "et il?" why lui?


When you use a pronoun in isolation in French, it must be in the disjunctive form (sometimes called "stressed"), even if it's a subject (_moi, toi, lui_, not _je, tu, il_). 

This is not very different from how you normally speak in English: "And *me*?... And *him*?...", not "And I?... And he?"


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## dylanG3893

Ok, I think I get it.

So for all the listeners of Alizee, if I replace "Moi... Lolita" (Me.. Lolita) with "Her, Lolita", it would be acceptable to say: "Lui.. Lolita" or "Elle.. Lolita"? 

Just trying to find an example.


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## Outsider

_"Elle... Lolita."_ The 3rd. per. sing. disjunctive pronoun is _lui_ in the masculine, but _elle_ in the feminine.


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## Maître Capello

dylanG3893 said:


> So for all the listeners of Alizee, if I replace "Moi... Lolita" (Me.. Lolita) with "Her, Lolita", it would be acceptable to say: "Lui.. Lolita" or "Elle.. Lolita"?


The title _Moi… Lolita_ is a short for the first sentence of the song (thanks Google ), namely _Moi, je m'appelle Lolita_ which means _*My* name is __Lolita_ (_My_ being stressed).

Anyway, when used in a complete sentence, that disjunctive pronoun is usually not the subject itself but an *epithet*.

_*Moi*, je m'appelle Lolita.
*Elle*, elle s'appelle Lolita.
*Lui*, il s'appelle Arthur.
*Moi*, Arthur, (je) déclare…_ (sounds pedantic anyway but sounds even more so if the subject [_je_] is omitted)


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## jess869

I'm unsure of what would represent 'her' in this sentence?

he locks her up:

il lui/la sequestre

Thanks in advance x


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## Outsider

Ask yourself what is locked. It's her, right? Then it's a direct object, _la_.


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## jess869

so if her is an indirect object it is lui?


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## Outsider

That's right. 

Je lui ai demandée de me marier.​


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## SwissPete

Outsider said:


> Je lui ai demandé*e* de me marier.


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## itka

jess869 said:


> I'm unsure of what would represent 'her' in this sentence?
> he locks her up:
> il lui/la sequestre
> Thanks in advance x



Ask the question :
Il séquestre *qui* ?
Answer : elle 
So, _elle_ is here direct object (no preposition between the verb and the object)
When _elle_ is a direct object, you must use the pronoun la to replace it.
---> Il *la* séquestre


When elle is an indirect object you must use the pronoun lui to replace it.
Il parle à Paula. (à + Paula ---> Paula is an indirect object)
Il *lui* parle

Il demande à Paula de l'épouser (_le marier_ is wrong) 
Il *lui *demande de l'épouser

Have a look in a grammar book : you'll find the complete table of the french pronouns : direct object, indirect object and emphasizing pronouns.


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## sabik

Can anyone help please to understand the difference between "il" and "lui"? When do we use each of these two pronouns?


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## Batracienne Floe

Hi sabik,
il = "he"
lui = "him" or "to him" (donne-le *lui* = give it *to him*)


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## MaybeLater

It might be useful to note that lui can also mean "to her"


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## sabik

And what's the difference between "lui" and "le"?


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## MaybeLater

"Je le connais" - I know him.
"Je m'entends bien avec lui" - I get along well with him. 

Use "le" for direct object pronouns.


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## sabik

Thanks a lot, MaybeLater! 
To understand better your explanation I'll try to compare it with the Russian Language the way I understood it. Now then, "le" would be Accusative case of "he" (answers to the question: see "whom? what?) and "lui" would be Prepositional case of "he" (answers to the question: talk about "whom? what?).


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## Bebop

MaybeLater said:


> It might be useful to note that lui can also mean "to her"



It's not correct

lui = "him" or "to him" (donne-le *lui* = give it *to him*)
elle = "her" or "to her" (donne-le à *elle* = give it to *her*)


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## jann

Welcome, Sabik! 

Cases are used differently in different languages, so direct comparison with Russian may not be as useful as you would wish.

_*Il* _is a masculine singular subject pronoun, the subject of a conjugated verb.  It is comparable to the nominative case.

_*Le* _is a masculine singular direct object pronoun.  It can be used to replace nouns that have accusative function (nouns that tell us what? or whom? with respect to the action of the verb).
_donner un cadeau à Marie, à Marc --> le donner à Marie, à Marc_

*Lui* has several functions. 

1. It is a singular indirect object personal pronoun.  As such, it is both masculine and feminine (therefore "to him" and "to her" are indistinguishable without context in this particular case).  It can be used to replace nous with dative function that refer to people, but not to things. In this role, it is positioned in front of the verb, and cannot replace nouns introduced by a preposition other than _à_.  
_donner un cadeau à Marie, donner un cadeau à Marc --> lui donner un cadeau_

2.  Some French verbs do not allow elimination of the preposition _à_ and anteposition of the direct object pronoun as above.  The indirect object pronoun required in these cases is sometimes referred to as "disjunctive."  _Lui_ can also serve as a masculine singular disjunctive pronoun (_Elle_ is the equivalent feminine; this is what Bebop refers to in post #9 above).  French verbs that use prepositions other than _à_ (such as _de, avec, pour, en_) to introduce an indirect object also use this same category of object pronouns.  As before, _lui_ is for a human, not a thing.
_penser à Marc (à Marie) --> penser à lui (à elle), lui penser _
_parler de Marc (de Marie) --> parler de lui (d'elle)
sortir avec Marc (avec Marie) __--> sortir avec lui (avec elle)
etc.
_
3. _Lui_ is also a masculine singular "tonic" pronoun, used disjunctively for emphasis (but not necessarily in reference to an indirect object):
_Lui, je le__ connais. - lui_ refers to the direct object _le:  _"I know him."
_Il aime le ciné, lui. - lui_ refers to the subject _il_:  "He likes cinema."
_C'est lui qui sait nager. - lui_ is the predicate subject:  It is he who knows how to swim.

I realize the topic of object pronouns is enormous, and that you may find you have futher questions, but please let's try to keep this thread focused on comparing _il vs. le vs. lui_.  I think you may also find it helpful to read through the links on object pronouns that we have suggested here. 

Jann
member and moderator


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## Fred_C

If you want a good analogy with a case language, here is one :
There are two sets of pronouns in French, the disjunctive ones, and the conjunctive ones.
Their declension is as follows :
conjunctive pronouns :
Nom : Il, elle
Acc: Le, la
Dat : Lui, lui.

Disjunctive pronouns :
Nom : Lui, elle
Acc : Lui, elle
Dat : does not exist. Use a preposition + the accusative case.

conjunctive pronouns are regular pronouns.
Disjunctive pronouns are used for emphasis on the person.


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## Gwynplaine

Bebop said:


> It's not correct
> elle = "her" or "to her" (donne-le à *elle* = give it to *her*)


Mais on peut tout à fait dire _donne-le-lui_ en parlant de quelque chose qu'on donne à une fille !
C'est un "datif", si l'on veut, même si c'est problématique d'utiliser ce terme puisque le français n'a pas de cas (sauf pour les pronoms personnels, justement).
Quand vous dites _elle_, vous utiliser une autre forme du pronom : celle qui se trouve après les prépositions en particulier. D'où _donne-le à elle_.

La phrase _Donne-le à elle _n'est d'ailleurs pas très correct, sauf si on veut insister sur la personne à qui on donne (_Donne-le à elle, pas à elle !_). Sinon, je pense qu'on utilisera toujours le pronom _lui_.


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## Bebop

Absolument d'accord!


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## EpicBacon

I've seen *A LOT* of contradictory answers on this. Some say lui can refer to a girl, others say, "NO! It's exclusively a male thing."

I'm very confused. Help? Merci beaucoup !


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## SwissPete

Yes, it is confusing!

If you say: « Je lui ai dit ... », the _lui _can refer to a man or a woman.

I am not an expert, but a grammarian will be along shortly to sort it out for you.


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## Fred_C

the word «lui» can be two different things.
«Lui» is a disjunct singular pronoun either subject or object, that refers only to a male person. Its female counterpart is «elle». The plural of «lui» is «eux», the plural form of «elle» is «elles».

«Lui» is also a non-disjunct singular dative pronoun that is genderless. (and means to him, to her, to it). Its plural form is «leur» (also genderless).


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## Dogfever

So, if I understand this correctly, in my example (La Délicatesse, by David Foenkinos) the _lui_ in the phrase lui n'était... is used as a tonic to emphasise that this particular individual is not necessarily like the rest of the world?

_Plus radicale que la mutation, il voyait une autre solution : le virer. Il devait forcément avoir commis une faute professionnelle. Tout le monde fait des erreurs. Mais bon, *lui* n’était pas tout le monde. La preuve, il sortait avec Nathalie_


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## Maître Capello

Yes, the _lui_ in your example is indeed the tonic/disjunctive pronoun – it could be replaced by _il_.


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## Dogfever

Thanks for confirming.

Most of the examples I see are of the form Lui, il n'était... where it seems the subject is retained and the tonic pronoun adds emphasis.

I wonder if there are any grammatical or customary restrictions on the use of this form. For example, "moi ne suis pas" doesn't feel right to me but it follows the same pattern as Foenkinos uses above. On the other hand, "moi, je ne suis pas" feels fine. Do my, largely baseless, suspicions match with typical French usage?


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## Maître Capello

Your suspicions are justified.  Only 3rd-person disjunctive pronouns (_lui / eux_) may indeed be used alone as subjects without the "regular" personal pronoun (_il / ils_). In the 1st or 2nd person, the redundant personal pronoun is required (_moi, je / toi, tu_).

_*Je* ne suis pas tout le monde._ 
_*Moi, je* ne suis pas tout le monde._ 
_*Moi* ne suis pas tout le monde._ 

_*Tu* n'es pas tout le monde._ 
_*Toi, tu* n'es pas tout le monde._ 
_*Toi* n'es pas tout le monde._ 

_*Il* n'est pas tout le monde._ 
_*Lui, il* n'est pas tout le monde._ 
_*Lui* n'est pas tout le monde._ 

_*Ils* ne sont pas tout le monde._ 
_*Eux, ils* ne sont pas tout le monde._ 
_*Eux* ne sont pas tout le monde._ 

Note: I didn't mention the 3rd person feminine (_elle / elles_) nor the 1st or 2nd persons plural (_nous / vous_) because the corresponding disjunctive pronouns are exactly the same as the personal pronouns.

See also the following discussions:
FR: moi, je / toi, tu / me/te <verbe> (à) moi/toi / etc. - pronom disjoint redondant
FR: lui / eux - pronom disjoint comme sujet au lieu de il / ils


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## Dogfever

Marvellous, thanks very much. I'll check out the links as well.


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