# Listening comprehension of Portuguese from Portugal



## William Stein

I'm neither Brazilian nor Portuguese, of course, but tell me whether this is right:
Portuguese people can understand every word of Brazilian TV shows but Brazilians have a very hard time understanding TV shows from Portugal.
I'm just guessing because that is the relationship in Spanish between Latin America and Spain.


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## englishmania

That's because we're (I'm Portuguese) used to watching Brazilian soap operas on TV (with no subtitles, of course). We listen to Brazilian music too. We're  open to other cultures. Every TV series and film has subtitles in portuguese, so we can hear the source language. Other countries choose to dub everything into their own language, so they're less exposed to a new language.

There's also this general belief that we can understand Spanish people more easily than they can understand us.


NB: In BrPT, vowels are pronounced very clearly (open vowels), in EurPt they're not as clear - so perhaps that's the reason why Brazilians have a hard time understanding EurPt.


Does that make any sense?


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## William Stein

englishmania said:


> That's because we're used to watching Brazilian soap operas on TV. We're open to other cultures. Every TV series and film has subtitles in portuguese, so we can hear the source language. Other countries choose to use dubbing instead of subtitles - which doesn't help them learn a new language.
> 
> There's also this general belief that we can understand Spanish people more easily than they understand us.


 
That's interesting. It's true I can't remember seeing any Portuguese TV shows when I lived in Brazil, but I wasn't a big TV watcher.
There's a similar trend in Arabic. Arabic speakers from different countries (and even different cities, in some cases) have an extremely hard time understanding one another's dialects, but they all understand the Egyptian dialect because it's like the Hollywood (or Bollywood) of Arabic TV production.


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## GOODVIEW

englishmania said:


> That's because we're (I'm Portuguese) used to watching Brazilian soap operas on TV (with no subtitles, of course). We listen to Brazilian music too. We're  open to other cultures. Every TV series and film has subtitles in portuguese, so we can hear the source language. Other countries choose to use dubbing instead of subtitles - therefore they're less exposed to a new language.
> 
> There's also this general belief that we can understand Spanish people more easily than they can understand us.



We haven't gone so far as to dub the Portuguese in Brazilian television but I've already seen the use of subtitles so that Brazilians can understand what is being said.


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## William Stein

GOODVIEW said:


> We haven't gone so far as to dub the Portuguese in Brazilian television but I've already seen the use of subtitles so that Brazilians can understand what is being said.


 
I remember when I saw the Scottish movie "Trainspotting" in Paris I had to read the French subtitles constantly. 
I spent 9 months in Brazil (in Campinas and Salvador da Bahia) and I can understand almost everything in Brazilian television news but I have problems with the slang in movies like "Cidade de Deus". With Portuguese from Portugal I have to admit I'm completely lost, too! It doesn't even sound like the same language.


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## englishmania

William Stein said:


> It doesn't even sound like the same language.


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## GamblingCamel

englishmania said:


> Every TV series and film has subtitles in portuguese, so we can hear the source language. Other countries choose to dub everything into their own language, so they're less exposed to a new language.


I didn't know that. Also, in the U.S. all foreign films are subtitled; there's never any dubbing.


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## englishmania

> In North-West Europe—meaning the UK, Ireland, the Netherlands and the Nordic countries—and Portugal  generally only movies and TV shows intended for children are dubbed,  while all TV shows and movies for older audiences are subtitled.
> 
> In the Italian, French, German, Spanish, and Russian-speaking  markets of Europe, almost all foreign films and television shows are  dubbed.


wikipedia


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## Alentugano

GOODVIEW said:


> We haven't gone so far as to dub the Portuguese in Brazilian television but I've already seen the use of subtitles so that Brazilians can understand what is being said.



Of course you did! I know at least one portuguese TV series which was dubbed in Brazil. It's called "Morangos com Açúcar".
http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morangos_com_Açúcar


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## William Stein

Alentugano said:


> Of course you did! I know at least one portuguese TV series which was dubbed in Brazil. It's called "Morangos com Açúcar".
> http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morangos_com_A%C3%A7%C3%BAcar


 
Dubbing is horrible. I've lived all over the world and if I ever have to see Marlon Brando speaking French or German again I think I'll vomit. And it's true what Englishmania says about subtitles helping to learn languages. In France they have some law that a certain (very high) percentage of the TV shows and songs on the radio have to be in French as some kind of "cultural heritage protection measure" and they're a bit weak on foreign languages (not as bad as Americans, but close). One of the reasons that the Scandinavians are so great at languages is that they never dub anything.


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## GamblingCamel

William Stein said:


> In France they have some law that a certain (very high) percentage of the TV shows and songs on the radio have to be in French as some kind of "cultural heritage protection measure" and they're very weak on foreign languages (not as bad as Americans, but close).


I've learned a lot about the dubbing process from a WR French translator.
Sometimes, she can't go with the best French linguistic translation of an English phrase because it's not a good syllabic match -- and thus won't be in sync with the movement of the actors' mouths.


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## Istriano

GOODVIEW said:


> We haven't gone so far as to dub the Portuguese in Brazilian television but I've already seen the use of subtitles so that Brazilians can understand what is being said.



Uai, there were Portuguese soap operas dubbed into Brazilian Portuguese:
_
Morangos com açúcar
Olá pai
Olhos d'água
_
and another one (I can't recall the name),
they were shown a few years ago, on BAND.

I haven't seen a single episode so I cannot commend on the contents, but some friends of mine watched them now and then, and they told me
they had the feeling they were watching an SBT Mexican soap opera, because of 1. campy acting and 2. the dubbing thing.


Wikipediando um pouco:



> A Rede Bandeirantes, por meio de um acordo com a TVI, exibiu a  primeira série de _Morangos com Açúcar_ em 2004  juntamente com a novela Olhos de Água (ambas foram dubladas em português  do Brasil para facilitar a compreensão). Ao contrário do que aconteceu  em Portugal, a série não teve muito sucesso e foi retirada do ar ao fim  de apenas três meses de exibição.


http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morangos_com_A%C3%A7%C3%BAcar#No_Brasil



1. Most people will give up when they have to make they brain work (listen to songs in another dialect or reading books in another dialect), because most people are not that into linguistics,
all they want is some pleasure easy reading (or watching).

2. There's another factor: profit, it's easier to make more money when there's two versions of the books (Harry Potter books are translated from UK English into American English, and all Paulo Coelho's books
are translated from Brazilian Portuguese into Continental Portuguese; Coelho's originals wouldn't sell well in Portugal because many people don't like ''Brazilian''' words like _você _or ''Brazilian'' grammar constructs like _estou botando; so_ ordinary people like reading books in an ordinary style without having to understand linguistic and sociolinguistic differences).

3. In Spanish, there's more acceptance of variants than in English or Portuguese, that's why Spanish singers are hot in Mexico (for example Mónica Naranjo or Enrique Iglesias); British movies are tolerated in Britain only if an artificial accent called RP is used (but this accent is the native tongue of less than 3% of Brits); British signers sing in an American accent so they can ''reach the States''.

Lovely Geordie Cheryl Cole would love to be a judge on the most famous America's talents show, but her coming to the show is always postponed because ''Americans cannot understand her accent''.

When Mad Max appeared (Australian hit with Mel Gibson), it was shown in the US dubbed into American English because Americans hated the Australian accent at that time.

4. This last thing is a bit weird, if Americans don't like a particular accent they will say ''I don't understand it'' even tho' this accent is perfectly understood by nonAmericans, even non-native speakers of English.
For example, there is an American prejudice towards speakers of Indian English.


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## MonikaUSA

William Stein said:


> I'm neither Brazilian nor Portuguese, of course, but tell me whether this is right: Portuguese people can understand every word of Brazilian TV shows but Brazilians have a very hard time understanding TV shows from Portugal.


Hello, William Stein: I think it is an accurate statement! I heard the same comment in Portugal. The two countries share the same language, but Brazil's influence in numbers and ratings is greater. While Portugal is known for its history, it could be said that Brazil is known for NOW.


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## William Stein

MonikaUSA said:


> Hello, William Stein: I think it is an accurate statement! I heard the same comment in Portugal. The two countries share the same language, but Brazil's influence in numbers and ratings is greater. While Portugal is known for its history, it could be said that Brazil is known for NOW.


 
I don't mean to imply that Portugal is "obsolete" or anything, I just think it would be nice if they had "close-captions" or "same-language subtitles" so that Brazilians (and I!) could take advantage of their creations.
 There's a similar problem here in Costa Rica. Everybody knows the Mexican and Colombian dialects because that's where a lot of the soap operas and great movies come from, but lots of people don't understand a word of the Spanish, Dominican, Cuban, Argentine or Chilean movies and there are no subtitles because it's supposed to be the same language. In fact, if the definition of a language is that it's incomprehensibe to non-natives, then they're more like different languages than dialects. As a result, there are few very TV shows from those countries here. I think it would be a good idea to subtitle them in Spanish and then we could get used to them.


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## Alentugano

Istriano said:


> Paulo Coelho's books
> are translated from Brazilian Portuguese into Continental Portuguese; Coelho's originals wouldn't sell well in Portugal because many people don't like ''Brazilian''' words like _você _or ''Brazilian'' grammar constructs like _estou botando; so_ ordinary people like reading books in an ordinary style without having to understand linguistic and sociolinguistic differences).



That's not really accurate, I don't know about Paulo Coelho's books, but I can assure you that the books from brazilian authors published here in Portugal are not adapted to european vocabulary or sintaxe. They used to suffer an orthographic adaptation, as to insert the mute consonants or some consonants that are mute in Brazil but not here, and to change some accent marks. Nowadays even this is changing, as a lot of books are published with no changes of any kind. If your claim was true, the brazilian soaps wouldn't be such a huge success here in Portugal. In general, we actually love to hear the brazilian accent, we find it very "sweet and colourful".


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## Vanda

We have discussed about this somewhere (I couldn't find it) but, about books adaptation, Saramago and another famous Portuguese author (forgot his name now) have clauses in their contract with the publishers to not adapt their books to Brazilian Portuguese. In the past we would read all the classics without adaptation: from Camões to Eça de Queirós and others and nobody complained. I don't know why they have this ''frescura'' nowadays to ''adapt'' a language to the same language. When I read an author I want to read it in the original. That is one of the reasons to learn some languages for me: to read the classics of literature in its original language.
And yes, we have some difficulty to understand a l_uso _in the first minutes till we get acquainted to their accent. When we get used to it we can understand, sometimes ''guessing'' a word. I've getting to the habit to watch the PT TV now and then so I get used to their accent. Each time it turns out easier to understand from the first minutes.


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## GOODVIEW

> Of course you did! I know at least one portuguese TV series which was dubbed in Brazil. It's called "Morangos com Açúcar"





> Uai, there were Portuguese soap operas dubbed into Brazilian Portuguese:
> 
> Morangos com açúcar
> Olá pai
> Olhos d'água



That's really a susprise to me! I seldom watch television but if I were to watch these soap operas, I would certainly do it because of the Portuguese "colour" in them. The accent, the vocabulary and the syntax are very important cultural traits.  I wonder if they kept the words and just dubbed the accent. If so they have created grotesque hybrids because the accent would never match with Portuguese phrasal constructions. Any drama would become a comedy! No wonder it didn't last long on tv.

And talking about accents, once Roberto Benigni said, after being asked about his strong italian accent in an Oscar show interview, that English native speakers didn't know how to speak English. "They speak poor English. Nobody understands them! We foreigners are the ones who speak good English, we all understand each other!".


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## GamblingCamel

I had no idea that pronunciation in European and Brazilian Portuguese is so different. It makes sense, though.

In respect to English, as Istriano said, lots of Brit film + tv is in RP (Reserved Pronunciation) which makes it fairly easy for us Americans to understand.
If it's in other UK dialects, it's not so easy -- as WS pointed out about Trainspotting (Scottish).

I didn't know that Harry Potter is "translated" for sale in the U.S. That's perhaps a special case, since so many readers are children.  Nevertheless, the book still comes across as very British -- and the titles themselves introduce young American readers to turns of phrase they've probably never heard before (goblet, order of the phoenix, half-blood prince, deathly hollows)

Regarding the Indian "accent": for Americans unaccustomed to its cadence and stress points, it is often difficult to understand.  Of course, racist derision towards Indians is a wholly different matter.


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## englishmania

GamblingCamel said:


> I had no idea that pronunciation in European and Brazilian Portuguese is so different





William Stein said:


> It doesn't even sound like the same language.



Finding nemo


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## GamblingCamel

englishmania said:


> Finding nemo


Thank you.
I'm obviously a New World kind of guy. I'm drawn much more naturally to the Brazilian pronunciation.


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## William Stein

englishmania said:


> Finding nemo
> 
> 
> I guess that sharks and fish can speak both dialects fluently because they swim in international waters!


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## englishmania

William Stein said:


> I guess that sharks and fish can speak both dialects fluently because they swim in international waters!



 lol


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## William Stein

englishmania said:


> lol


 
Why the "thunderous silence" from the Brazilian team (except for Wanda and Goodview)? I was hoping to get some insight on how wide the gap is between spoken Portuguese in Brazil and Portugual (mainly so I wouldn't feel like the only one who has problems understanding the latter, but also because it's an important point linguistically).


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## GamblingCamel

William Stein said:


> Why the "thunderous silence" from the Brazilian team (except for Wanda and Goodview)? I was hoping to get some insight on how wide the gap is between spoken Portuguese in Brazil and Portugual (mainly so I wouldn't feel like the only one who has problems understanding the latter, but also because it's an important point linguistically).


Speaking of variations in pronunciation:
Wanda AND Vanda .. what's up with that?
Somebody else on WR referred to Vanda as Wanda in a PM to me the other day. Am I missing something linguistically crucial?


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## anaczz

Ok! Sometimes I have to ask my husband (portuguese) to turn to face me (*) so I can understand what exactly, he's speaking.

(*) Is this right?




> Speaking of variations in pronunciation:
> Wanda AND Vanda .. what's up with that?
> Somebody else on WR referred to Vanda as Wanda in a PM to me the other day. Am I missing something linguistically crucial?


We always speak Vanda, even when we write Wanda.


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## William Stein

anaczz said:


> Ok! Sometimes I have to ask my husband (portuguese) to turn to face me (*) so I can understand what exactly, he's speaking.
> 
> (*) Is this right?
> 
> 
> We always speak Vanda, even when we write Wanda.


 
"Turn to face me" is fine. If you have a Portuguese husband you're not a typical example, though, and I remember you said you lived with Portuguese people before. 
Actually that excerpt from Nemo in Portuguese from Portugal that Englishmania sent me wasn't that hard to understand, but it's not typical either because Walt Disney probably makes a big effort to make everything clear for children and the general public.
Are there are a lot of big regional differences, like in Spain? Do they speak a lot faster, like Spaniards?


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## anaczz

What I meant was: if even I (or me?), living for 10 years in Portugal and maried with a portuguese, sometimes have trouble when listening PtEu, what about those who are not used with the portuguese accent.


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## englishmania

That amazes me...I mean, I think Brazilians who come to Portugal don't even need to change their accent (?)...


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## GamblingCamel

anaczz said:


> We always speak Vanda, even when we write Wanda.


But she's one and the same person, right?
I'm beginning to think that I'm in a science fiction film with two parallel Portuguese realities.


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## englishmania

lol yes, she's Vanda, so I don't know why people write Wanda. Perhaps that's because in their own language (for example, english) it's Wanda.


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## anaczz

We need to change a bit.
When I ask for an es-par-re-ga-do (and not for a "spârgado") or for a ti-je-la-da (and not for a "tijlada") I have some trouble.
The voice recognition systems never understood my accent, even when I tried hard to say "Lijsboa".
When I came back to Brazil, everybody said that I was talking with portuguese accent. Not enough for portuguese people notice, but, yes, we have to change something.




			
				englishmania said:
			
		

> NB: In BrPT, vowels are pronounced very clearly (open vowels), in EurPt  they're not as clear - so perhaps that's the reason why Brazilians have a  hard time understanding EurPt.



I think this is the "problem".


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## William Stein

anaczz said:


> We need to change a bit.
> When I ask for an es-par-re-ga-do (and not for a "spârgado") or for a ti-je-la-da (and not for a "tijlada") I have some trouble.
> The voice recognition systems never understood my accent, even when I tried hard to say "Lijsboa".
> When I came back to Brazil, everybody said that I was talking with portuguese accent. Not enough for portuguese people notice, but, yes, we have to change something.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think this is the "problem".


 Okay, thanks, Anaccz, you're actually in a perfect position to judge with your background.


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## anaczz

englishmania said:


> lol yes, she's Vanda, so I don't know why people write Wanda. Perhaps that's because in their own language (for example, english) it's Wanda.



Yes I think it was a mistake but we do have Wandas and Vandas in Brazil.
We have too Wilsons (pronounced Uilson), we have some Uilsons, and we have Vilsons.

But, here, we have one and the only one Vanda,  Moderesa de Beagá


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## GamblingCamel

anaczz said:


> But, here, we have one and the only one Vanda,  Moderesa de Beagá


Yes, the one and only Vanda.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanda


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## indigoduck

GamblingCamel said:


> Thank you.
> I'm obviously a New World kind of guy. I'm drawn much more naturally to the Brazilian pronunciation.


 
Abraços to the fellow american!


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## Istriano

GamblingCamel said:


> Speaking of variations in pronunciation:
> Wanda AND Vanda .. what's up with that?
> Somebody else on WR referred to Vanda as Wanda in a PM to me the other day. Am I missing something linguistically crucial?



The most famous singer of _*Música popular brega*_ is
*W*anessa (formerly known as Wanessa Camargo  ).
Still her new ''artist'' name is better than W.C.


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## William Stein

Istriano said:


> The most famous singer of _*Música popular brega*_ is
> *W*anessa (formerly known as Wanessa Camargo  ).
> Still her new ''artist'' name is better than W.C.


 
I just had to translate something about "Works Councils" that was abbreviated in the French original, but I said I would avoid W.C. in English for obvious reasons: "The cumulative results of the concerted efforts by labor and management during the week-long W.C. session were quite impressive!"


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## GamblingCamel

William Stein said:


> "The cumulative results of the concerted efforts by labor and management during the week-long W.C. session were quite impressive!"


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## Vanda

Ahem, stop gossiping about Vanda and go back to the topic! _Potaito, potato._ (And what is people ''gossipping'' about Vanda on the backstage anyway?) 

Back to the topic:
Reading European PT is easy, understanding spoken EU/PT is another story. About the _lusos_ shows I watch on TV, when the persons speaking it are not on the standard register I do get lost. 
Example: if they are interviewing someone from I-don't-know-which-region, other then the TV ancoras, for example, I have a high difficulty understanding them.


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## Carfer

englishmania said:


> NB: In BrPT, vowels are pronounced very clearly (open vowels), in EurPt they're not as clear - so perhaps that's the reason why Brazilians have a hard time understanding EurPt.


 
Bem... eu sempre disse que, por causa dessa nossa tendência para comer as vogais, o português europeu era uma língua eslava e não latina. Embora esteja a brincar, a coisa não é destituída de fundamento. Comparem a sonoridade do português com o russo ou o polaco e logo verão o que quero dizer. Não é de admirar que os brasileiros tenham dificuldade em entender-nos. E se fossem só os brasileiros...


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## Vanda

Falando nisso, veja esta, Carfer.


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## William Stein

Vanda said:


> Falando nisso, veja esta, Carfer.


 
That's true, the first time I heard Pt-Eu, I didn't know Russian yet and I thought they were speaking Russian. 

As to the nasal vowels in Polish and Portuguese, my theory is this:
1) Polish and Portugeuse follow one another alphabetically in the list of languages, so the methods to learn Polish and Portuguese are next to one another on the bookshelf. 
2) The tranmission of nasal vowels between the two languages is therefore a result of osmosis!


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## Carfer

Vanda said:


> Falando nisso, veja esta, Carfer.


 
Pois, confirma o que pensava, se bem que não me tivesse ocorrido que o português brasileiro pudesse ser metido no mesmo saco (e acho que não, parece-me exagero, além de que as diferenças de sonoridade entre o português europeu e o brasileiro são manifestas). O que é facto é que já por mais de uma vez me aconteceu alguém perguntar-me se era russo ou checo por me ouvir falar português. E também eu, desde que, no final dos anos 60, estive pela primeira vez exposto a ouvir algumas horas de russo por via do longuíssimo 'Guerra e Paz' do Sergei Bondarchuk, concluí pela mesma semelhança.


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## MonikaUSA

englishmania said:


> That amazes me...I mean, I think Brazilians who come to Portugal don't even need to change their accent (?)...


In Portugal, I got the impression that the Portuguese liked the sound of Brazilian Portuguese. It was also very familiar to them. When I heard Brazilian students speaking, it was very difficult for my ears because it sounds so different and exaggerated (or, drawn out because of the vowels?). When we were introduced (I had never before spoken with a Brazilian), I responded in PtE, they responded in English, I continued in PtE, and then conversation after that brief encounter stopped. But that's another story....


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## Carfer

MonikaUSA said:


> In Portugal, I got the impression that the Portuguese liked the sound of Brazilian Portuguese.


 
That's right.


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## Istriano

I like the fact that there is less prejudice towards Bahia and our music (Daniela Mercury, Ivete Sangalo, Margareth Menezes) in Portugal than in Southeast.
---
Quanto a Cheryl, uma notícia muito boa: http://www.tvsquad.com/2011/01/13/fox-boss-endorses-cheryl-cole-as-x-factor-judge-despite-her-a/


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## CarlaD

William Stein said:


> I'm neither Brazilian nor Portuguese, of course, but tell me whether this is right:
> Portuguese people can understand every word of Brazilian TV shows but Brazilians have a very hard time understanding TV shows from Portugal.
> I'm just guessing because that is the relationship in Spanish between Latin America and Spain.



We (portuguese) are able not only to understand but also to speak the brazilian portuguese and many times we can even fool  the brazilian guys (in the good sense). 

Englishmania explained quite well why this happens. A curious thing is that a brazilian guy can spend years in Portugal and yet he will hardly be confused with a Portuguese. That´s also because we understand them very well, and so they can keep speaking their "own" portuguese.


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## Vanda

> We (Portuguese) are able not only to understand but also to speak the Brazilian Portuguese and many times we can even fool  the Brazilian guys  (in the good sense).
> Ahhh.. do jeitinho que  nós fazemos!
> 
> ..A curious thing is that a brazilian guy can spend years in Portugal and  yet he will hardly be confused with a Portuguese. That´s also because we  understand them very well, and so they can keep speaking their "own" Portuguese.
> Pode ser porque a gente faz questão de não parecer luso, né?


Carla, queremos que os lusos continuem falando como lusos e brasileiros continuem falando como brasileiros. E você tem razão, temos o nosso próprio português. Já deixou de ser luso há mais de 100 anos!


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## Istriano

Bom, parece que há diferenças de percepção

Dizem que
1. português de Portugal soa como russo
2. português carioca soa como polonês (forte nazalização, muitos sons palatais xis, lh, ñ, dj, tch)
3. outros sotaques brasileiros soam como romeno

Mandei uma música caboverdiana (em crioulo de Santiago) para uma amiga carioca e ela perguntou se a música era em português em Portugal. Mandei a mesma música para um amigo italiano e ele perguntou se a música era em romeno.


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## anaczz

CarlaD said:


> We (portuguese) are able not only to understand but also to speak the brazilian portuguese and many times we can even fool  the brazilian guys (in the good sense).


Hummmm. Em Portugal, ouvi pouquíssimos portugueses a imitar brasileiros que realmente parecessem com o original. Na maioria das vezes é uma imitação tão caricata quanto o é um brasileiro a imitar portugueses, a falar "baim", "binho" etc.
Geralmente falam "Cara, vócê tá legau? Preciso falá cum vócê".
Tenho aqui comigo três portugueses, já há 2 anos no Brasil e eles tem bastante dificuldade em entender o que falam os brasileiros, especialmente quando estão conversando em grupo e falando num ritmo normal. Entendem no geral, assim como nós entendemos, no geral, o que falam os portugueses. Mas muitas palavras se perdem.

Quanto às parecenças, na Rússia, diversas pessoas, quando ouviam meu marido e eu a conversarmos em português (PtEu e PtBr), nos perguntavam se éramos Búlgaros.


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## CarlaD

anaczz said:


> Hummmm. Em Portugal, ouvi pouquíssimos portugueses a imitar brasileiros que realmente parecessem com o original. Na maioria das vezes é uma imitação tão caricata quanto o é um brasileiro a imitar portugueses, a falar "baim", "binho" etc.
> Geralmente falam "Cara, vócê tá legau? Preciso falá cum vócê".
> Tenho aqui comigo três portugueses, já há 2 anos no Brasil e eles tem bastante dificuldade em entender o que falam os brasileiros, especialmente quando estão conversando em grupo e falando num ritmo normal. Entendem no geral, assim como nós entendemos, no geral, o que falam os portugueses. Mas muitas palavras se perdem.
> 
> Quanto às parecenças, na Rússia, diversas pessoas, quando ouviam meu marido e eu a conversarmos em português (PtEu e PtBr), nos perguntavam se éramos Búlgaros.



Claro, nem todos os portugueses o farão bem. Mas eu pessoalmente já fui tomada por brasileira pela escrita (inclusive participo de algumas comunidades brasileiras onde nem sonham que eu sou portuguesa. Nunca calhou comentar e nunca ninguém supôs que sou portuguesa porque optei por escrever em PtBr para facilitar a comunicação) e geralmente se falarmos com um brasileiro conseguimos fazê-lo de uma forma muito aproximada ao PtBr, o que facilita a vossa compreensão. Se falarmos em PtPt vocês geralmente não nos entendem. Reparei inclusive que alguns atores portugueses quando entram nas vossas novelas passam a falar um português "abrasileirado" para se tornarem perceptíveis. E conheço alguns portugueses que ao fim de uns anos no Brasil parecem brasileiros. 

Os russos são um povo engraçado. O meu namorado trabalhou 1 ano na Rússia, mas ele não gostou muito de lá.  A maioria não fala inglês. Nos restaurantes pedir comida era uma aventura.


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## anaczz

CarlaD said:


> Claro, nem todos os portugueses o farão bem. Mas eu pessoalmente já fui tomada por brasileira pela escrita (inclusive participo de algumas comunidades brasileiras onde nem sonham que eu sou portuguesa. Nunca calhou comentar e nunca ninguém supôs que sou portuguesa porque optei por escrever em PtBr para facilitar a comunicação) e geralmente se falarmos com um brasileiro conseguimos fazê-lo de uma forma muito aproximada ao PtBr, o que facilita a vossa compreensão.
> Bem, na escrita é outra conversa! Eu participei de um fórum português (que infelizmente acabou-se) por muito tempo e, a princípio evitei dizer que era brasileira; quando, depois de algum tempo disse, ninguém acreditava...
> 
> Se falarmos em PtPt vocês geralmente não nos entendem.
> É claro que entendemos. Sempre há alguma dificuldade em perceber todas as palavras, mas o mesmo acontece com os portugueses em relação aos brasileiros. Trabalhei por muitos anos em Portugal e tive de adaptar meu modo de falar para ser compreendida por todos.
> Lembre-se que a linguagem e o sotaque das novelas não é necessariamente a linguagem e o sotaque dos brasileiros. Elas são feitas para vender, tanto para o Brasil inteiro, independente de expressões e sotaques regionais, como para Portugal, Angola, Moçambique, Japão, Rússia, etc. etc. O "sotaque nordestino", por exemplo, que é falado em algumas novelas brasileiras, não é usado em nenhum lugar do Brasil. É uma criação, uma mistura de todos e de nenhum.
> 
> E conheço alguns portugueses que ao fim de uns anos no Brasil parecem brasileiros.
> Sim, o português do Brasil é mais fácil e relaxado (e a meu ver, mais agradável de articular) e os portugueses que para cá imigram, vão sendo conquistados aos pouquinhos e, num instante acabam por falar como nós. Falar como os lisboetas, por exemplo, demanda esforço físico!
> 
> Os russos são um povo engraçado. O meu namorado trabalhou 1 ano na Rússia, mas ele não gostou muito de lá.  A maioria não fala inglês. Nos restaurantes pedir comida era uma aventura.
> Nem me diga! Também passamos um ano por lá (e lamentamos ter que vir embora tão cedo) e, a princípio era mesmo uma aventura! Nunca sabíamos o que iríamos comer, após fazer o pedido.
> Mas agora já começam a falar mais inglês por lá, está mais fácil encontrar quem fale inglês. Além do mais já aprendemos direitinho a pedir o que nos interessa, em Russo.


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## William Stein

What you say about the Brazilian soap operas is generally true of "universal television languages". It's not really true that all Spanish-speakers understand Mexican Spanish or that all Arabic speakers understand Egyptian Arabic, they just understand the "watered-down", clearly articulated and simplified versions on the soap operas made especially for export.


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## anaczz

William Stein said:


> What you say about the Brazilian soap operas is generally true of "universal television languages". It's not really true that all Spanish-speakers understand Mexican Spanish or that all Arabic speakers understand Egyptian Arabic, they just understand the "watered-down", clearly articulated and simplified versions on the soap operas made especially for export.


It's true! My spaniard girl friend spent a year in the USA, where she met a mexican boy. They had to talk in English, because they couldn't understand each other in Spanish.


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## William Stein

anaczz said:


> It's true! My spaniard girl friend spent a year in the USA, where she met a mexican boy. They had to talk in English, because they couldn't understand each other in Spanish.


 
I remember a long time ago I was watching a video of the Spanish movie "Jamón, Jamón" with a Mexican friend. I didn't catch one sentence and I asked him what the actor said, and he had to rewind at least 7 times before he understood!
I don't know why they speak so fast, they don't really pronounce more total words because there's a big pause between each sentence, but it's practically impossible to understand what they're saying half the time.

Just to stay "on topic" , allow me to repeat an earlier question that nobody commented on: 
Are there are a lot of big regional differences in Pt_Eu, like in Spain? Do they speak a lot faster, like Spaniards?


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## Macunaíma

Eu não tenho dificuldade para entender sotaque português, até porque ouço a minha vizinha, dona Arminda, uma senhora idosa portuguesa muito simpática, conversar com o papagaio todo santo dia, num tom de voz infantilizado e paternalista.  A maioria dos brasileiros, no entanto, teria dificuldades. Digo _teria_ porque a maioria mesmo nem conhece o sotaque português, a não ser por caricaturas grotescas que se fazem dele na TV de vez em quando, tão toscas quanto as que se fazem do "sotaque nordestino" nas novelas. Filmes, música e programas de TV portugueses no Brasil são praticamente inexistentes, o que é uma lástima. Não tenho certeza se os portugueses em geral apreciam sotaque brasileiro, como se disse; a maioria dos comentários a respeito que leio e ouço de portugueses é em tom de crítica. Acho que existe uma tendência mais ou menos universal de não se morrer de amores pelo que é muito diferente. Dito isso, eu gosto do sotaque portuga, inclusive uma das minhas músicas favoritas é portuguesa, do grupo Madredeus (cantada com sotaque brasileiro não teria a menos graça ).


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## anaczz

William Stein said:


> Are there are a lot of big regional differences in Pt_Eu, like in Spain? Do they speak a lot faster, like Spaniards?



O que vi foi que, apesar de ser um país pequeno em extensão e em população, Portugal tem uma diversidade enorme de sotaques (assim como de  costumes, gastronomia, etc.). Pode-se notar diferenças no falar até entre duas pequenas localidades vizinhas.
Quanto à "velocidade" da fala, a mim não parece que falem muito rápido, em geral, exceção feita aos açorianos, que falam rápido e com um sotaque muito marcado, que, às vezes, mesmo os portugueses do continente tem certa dificuladade em compreender (na primeira vez em que conversei com uma açoriana, pensei que se tratava de uma inglesa a falar português).


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## CarlaD

Anaczz said:
			
		

> Bem, na escrita é outra conversa! Eu participei de um  fórum português (que infelizmente acabou-se) por muito tempo e, a  princípio evitei dizer que era brasileira; quando, depois de algum tempo  disse, ninguém acreditava...


 
Deves ser excepção, porque a maioria dos brasileiros denuncia-se sempre mesmo quando tenta escrever em PtPt,  especialmente no uso do gerúndio, na construção frásica e no emprego de palavras que nós não usamos em  Portugal.




> É claro que entendemos. Sempre há alguma  dificuldade  em perceber todas as palavras, mas o mesmo acontece com os portugueses  em relação aos brasileiros. Trabalhei por muitos anos em Portugal e tive  de adaptar meu modo de falar para ser compreendida por todos.
> Lembre-se que a linguagem e o sotaque das novelas não é necessariamente a  linguagem e o sotaque dos brasileiros. Elas são feitas para vender,  tanto para o Brasil inteiro, independente de expressões e sotaques  regionais, como para Portugal, Angola, Moçambique, Japão, Rússia, etc.  etc. O "sotaque nordestino", por exemplo, que é  falado em algumas novelas brasileiras, não é usado em nenhum lugar do  Brasil. É uma criação, uma mistura de todos e de nenhum.


A experiência que tenho é a de que há muita dificuldade em nos  entenderem. Há imensas palavras que o brasileiro comum não sabe o que  significam em PtPt. As minhas amigas da tal comunidade brasileira não  gostam sequer de ler livros em PtPt. Dizem que o texto é estranho e com  palavras que não entendem. Inclusive das primeiras vezes que se viram  atores portugueses em novelas brasileiras lembro-me de se ter falado da  hipótese de colocarem legendas porque as pessoas não entendiam o que os  atores portugueses falavam (mais recentemente, o português Ricardo Pereira fala nas novelas brasileiras um português lento e meio abrasileirado que ele não usa em nenhuma novela portuguesa). 

 


> Mas agora já começam a falar mais inglês por lá, está mais fácil  encontrar quem fale inglês. Além do mais já aprendemos direitinho a  pedir o que nos interessa, em Russo.



Se agora é mais fácil imagino que antes seria terrível.  O meu namorado  veio  de lá há 3 ou 4 meses. Os restaurantes na generalidade não têm menu em  inglês, os empregados não falam inglês (imensas vezes ele apontava para o prato de outros clientes para pedir a comida), a própria polícia não fala  inglês (ele teve que reportar na esquadra um roubo de um computador e acabou por  desistir porque não se conseguia comunicar). Falo do russo comum porque  no trabalho dele falavam inglês, mas muito mal. Como a  empresa dele tinha empregados de muitos países ele nunca chegou a tentar  falar russo. O inglês era a língua recomendada.


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## englishmania

anaczz said:


> (na primeira vez em que conversei com uma açoriana, pensei que se tratava de uma inglesa a falar português).



Penso que o "açoriano (s.micaelense)", o "madeirense" e  o mirandês (língua oficial) (parece espanhol) são os mais difíceis/diferentes.


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## CarlaD

englishmania said:


> Penso que o "açoriano (s.micaelense)", o "madeirense" e  o mirandês (língua oficial) (parece espanhol) são os mais difíceis/diferentes.



Mas ainda assim um português percebe que é açoriano.


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## anaczz

englishmania said:


> Penso que o "açoriano (s.micaelense)", o "madeirense" e  o mirandês (língua oficial) (parece espanhol) são os mais difíceis/diferentes.


Sim, mas o "madeirense" percebe-se melhor e o Mirandês, como você mesma disse é uma segunda língua oficial, não é  português.


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## GamblingCamel

anaczz said:


> o Mirandês, como você mesma disse é uma segunda língua oficial, não é  português.


I had to look up Miranda do Douro in Wiki. Mirandês is part of the Astur-Leonese linguistic group.



> Em Espanha, o grupo linguístico asturo-leonês está presente em:
> 
> Astúrias, onde o asturiano é um idioma oficialmente reconhecido e regulado pela Academia da Língua Asturiana, contudo não tem o estatuto de idioma oficial (como é o caso do galego, basco ou do catalão nas respectivas comunidades onde são falados);
> 
> Castela e Leão, onde o leonês é protegido mas não é regulado por nenhuma entidade.
> 
> O mirandês, língua tradicional do Planalto Mirandês, é de raiz asturo-leonesa, é língua oficial em Portugal e é regulada pelo Instituto da Língua Mirandesa.


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## Istriano

William Stein said:


> What you say about the Brazilian soap operas is generally true of "universal television languages". It's not really true that all Spanish-speakers understand Mexican Spanish or that all Arabic speakers understand Egyptian Arabic, they just understand the "watered-down", clearly articulated and simplified versions on the soap operas made especially for export.




But I wouldn't say the accent in a carioca soap opera is ''universal'' at all.
Outside the city of Rio (and Northeastern parts of the state of Rio), _carioca_ accent is not used at all.

I wish soap operas were shot in a place where a more neutral Brazilian accent is used, like Brasília, Juiz de Fora or Vitória.

For Globo, Brazil is: 90% RJ, 10% SP
which is very weird.

No wonder than in Europe (outside Portugal) carioca is used as a synonim for Brazilian (Onde a gente usaria _tupiniquim_, eles usam _carioca_; ''El país carioca'' é muito frequente ouvir-se na Espanha; ''carioca'' como sinônimo de brasileiro aparece até em muitos dicionários espanhois, por exemplo no ;''Gran Diccionario de uso del Español actual'' da SGEL).

Going back to the topic, even tho' Brazilian and Lusitanian _*phonetics *_are very different, _*phonology *_is 99% the same,  apart from the small differences that are always obvious (António vs Antônio), stressed vocalism is very uniform, the only difference I can think of is: senhóra (Br) ~ senhôra (Pt).

In Italy, except for Toscana region and the city of Rome, people use open and closed vowels the way they like, each city or even each village has its own pronunciation (even when trying to speak the standard language),

pèsca (è = open vowel) in standard  Italian (Tuscany, Rome) means a '_peach_', pêssego;  but in Milan it means _fishing _(''pesca'')

pésca (é = close vowel) in standard Italian means _fishing _(Portuguese ''pesca''), but in Milan it means a _peach _(pêssego'')

In Portuguese, it would sound very strange if someone pronounced the stressed vowel differently (except for the variation between the nasals)...

But unstressed vocalism is another thing, so we have
_vôcê _in Brazil, _vócê _in Portugal
_curação _in Portugal, _côração _in Southestern Brazilian Portuguese, _córação_ in Northeastern Brazilian Portuguese

_s'guro ~ sêguro ~ siguro  _and so on and on


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## Istriano

GamblingCamel said:


> I had to look up Miranda do Douro in Wiki. Mirandês is part of the Astur-Leonese linguistic group.




_*Mirandês *_ia a dialect of Leonese, and being protected in Portugal means it can survive, unlike in Spain, where Leonese is neglected, even the region of León (provinces of León, Zamora, Salamanca) is being erased from the map, so many people think Salamanca is a Castillian city when in fact it's not, it's a Leonese city.


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## William Stein

Istriano said:


> Thanks for the interesting analysis.
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean by:
> For Globo, Brazil is: 90% RJ, 10% SP
> which is very weird.
> 
> Do you mean that the newspaper Globo gives a lot more coverage to RJ than to SP?
> 
> (António vs Antônio)
> 
> The difference being that ó is a "low vowel" and ô is a "high vowel", right? Does that actually refer to the relative pitch? It's kind of hard to get used to if you speak French, by the way, because there the ô is always used for a low vowel.
> 
> But unstressed vocalism is another thing, so we have _vôcê _in Brazil, _vócê _in Portugal _curação _in Portugal, _côração _in Southestern Brazilian Portuguese, _córação_ in Northeastern Brazilian Portuguese
> 
> _s'guro ~ sêguro ~ siguro _and so on and on


 
Maybe that's because language is supposed to be an interplay of significant differences, so stressed vowels are respected but and unstressed vowels are discarded into the general garbage can of insignificant differences that can be mutilated at will.


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## anaczz

CarlaD said:


> Deves ser excepção, porque a maioria dos brasileiros denuncia-se sempre mesmo quando tenta escrever em PtPt,  especialmente no uso do gerúndio, na construção frásica e no emprego de palavras que nós não usamos em  Portugal.
> 
> O mesmo acontece com portugueses a tentar escrever "brasileiro", exageram nas próclises, metem gerúndio em toda parte, e sempre acabam utilizando um ou outro termo não utilizado no Brasil. No entanto, o Brasil é grande e tem grande variedade linguística e uma das coisas que aprendemos nestes fóruns é que é muito difícil afirmar: isto não se fala no Brasil, portanto é bem fácil passar por brasileiro, na escrita, pois embora algo possa soar estranho, imaginamos que seja alguma característica regional ou coisa assim. Termos como alcatifa, borrego, alguidar, que não são utilizados no Sul e Sudeste do Brasil, o são em alguns estados do Nordeste, por exemplo.
> 
> A experiência que tenho é a de que há muita dificuldade em nos  entenderem. Há imensas palavras que o brasileiro comum não sabe o que  significam em PtPt. As minhas amigas da tal comunidade brasileira não  gostam sequer de ler livros em PtPt. Dizem que o texto é estranho e com  palavras que não entendem.
> 
> Bem, para começar, há imensas palavras que o brasileiro comum não sabe o que significam em PtBr, assim como há imensas em PtPt que o português comum desconhece. Nossos países tem enormes taxas de analfabetismo funcional...
> Não acredito, por exemplo que você saiba, sem  consultar, o que quer dizer piá, cuia, bomba, guampa, bidê, bombacha,  prenda, posta vermelha, bagual, deu-pra-ti, trilegal, macanudo e mais um sem número de termos que são  usados na minha região.
> Sei que, por exemplo, José Saramago é muito mais lido e universalmente aceito e querido, no Brasil do que em Portugal. Eça de Queiroz, Camilo e muitos outros, fazem parte da nossa formação básica em literatura. Isso tudo depende do grupo com quem você convive. Há também um certo preconceito que pode estar por trás da rejeição da literatura portuguesa.
> Bem, mas o que estávamos discutindo a princípio, era quanto ao entendimento ou não da pronúncia e não de palavras.
> 
> Inclusive das primeiras vezes que se viram  atores portugueses em novelas brasileiras lembro-me de se ter falado da  hipótese de colocarem legendas porque as pessoas não entendiam o que os  atores portugueses falavam
> 
> Você quer dizer, das primeiras vezes que tentaram novamente introduzir atores portugueses nas novelas, porque lembro de novelas dos anos 70 com atores portugueses, mas a "coisa não vingou".
> Como eu disse anteriormente, as novelas são um produto a ser vendido e pretende-se que seja consumido por todas as classes sociais e diversos grupos culturais, entraria aqui também o tal preconceito contra o sotaque português.
> Imagino que essa onda de apresentar atores portugueses, relacione-se também com a melhor vendagem da novela em Portugal.
> 
> (mais recentemente, o português Ricardo Pereira fala nas novelas brasileiras um português lento e meio abrasileirado que ele não usa em nenhuma novela portuguesa).
> Essa do Ricardo Pereira, já é outra história. Quiseram fazer dele "galã"  e um galã com forte sotaque português, provavelmente não teria a mesma aceitação, no Brasil. Na mesma altura o Nuno Melo e a Joana Solnado participaram de novelas brasileiras e não tiveram que mudar sua forma de falar. Aliás a Joana contracenava com o Ricardo e o contraste entre os sotaques era evidente.


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## GOODVIEW

> But I wouldn't say the accent in a carioca soap opera is ''universal'' at all.
> Outside the city of Rio (and Northeastern parts of the state of Rio), carioca accent is not used at all.
> 
> I wish soap operas were shot in a place where a more neutral Brazilian accent is used, like Brasília, Juiz de Fora or Vitória.



It's really funny to see how everything in life is based on perspective. As a carioca, I don't think that the carioca actors in Globo's soap operas speak with a genuine carioca accent at all. They seem to "neutralize" it, which gives me the impression that most of them are not from Rio (even if perhaps they are!). I've even heard some years ago that this was part of Globo's policy in this regard.


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## Vanda

> It's really funny to see how everything in life is based on perspective.  As a carioca, I don't think that the carioca actors in Globo's soap  operas speak with a genuine carioca accent at all. They seem to  "neutralize" it, which gives me the impression that most of them are not  from Rio (even if perhaps they are!). I've even heard some years ago  that this was part of Globo's policy in this regard.



You have a point, Good. Actually most of the actors are not cariocas, they are from São Paulo, ES, MG, etc and  they try to approximate to the carioca accent. This is noticeable when we listen to real cariocas being interviewed on the streets on the news, you can notice how different it is.


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## Istriano

Well, at least it's not as unpleasant as the accent used in _Malhação..._


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