# Si sta come d'autunno sugli alberi le foglie



## lsp

I would like to understand better what this means. I believe it may be a poem, possibly well know in Italy, so I would also like to know who wrote it, if that is the case. 

Si sta come d’autunno sugli alberi le foglie

Thanks, Lsp


----------



## DDT

Literally it means: "We're like leaves on branches in Autumn/Fall", the title of the poem - if I'm not wrong - is "Soldati" ("Soldiers")

DDT


----------



## lsp

Thanks, everyone! I thought my boss (from Italy, and he kindly speaks to me in Italian, but this time he spoke quickly, just in passing, so I may have misunderstood him) said it was Petrarca and so I couldn't find anything. I take the meaning to be about a kind of sadness, or of the cycle of life, but poetry is not my forte. Would you say that's the meaning? Is there much more to it (I'll go look a little, too). Is Ungaretti known for any particular style or subject?

Thanks again.


----------



## walnut

It's just my opinion... this kind of short poetry (like japanese haikus) touches you particularly when you approach it as if it was a picture, something visual without words. It's about life, fall, uncertainty and things passing by; I can feel what's poetical in it when I visualize autumn, a tree, the leaves left on a branch, and me. Ciao! Walnut


----------



## carlafed

Ungaretti (1888-1970) belongs to a poetic movement or school called 'ermetismo' or  "Italian school of obscure poetry" (with Eugenio Montale and Salvatore Quasimodo, to quote only the most important). 
The meaning of this poem is yet not very obscure. The soldiers are in the front line and their lives are in great danger. So the poet compare them (and he is one of them) to the leaves in Autumn, ready and doomed to fall from the trees.
Their lives are very precarious, to quote a word that appeared in another thread 
 
I hope it is clear. My English is not very good


----------



## lsp

I have been reading all about him, I now think I feel in it tenacity and vulnerability. I had not been considering the title before. Then I saw Carlafed's post (yes, precarious!) so I feel this is the right track. So much thought and emotion provoked by so few words, and as Walnut said (rather poetically), so much imagery, too... amazing.


----------



## David

We are as the leaves that cling to the branch in Fall ...


----------



## DDT

David said:
			
		

> We are as the leaves that cling to the branch in Fall ...



That's a very good interpretation...yet I'd dare to say that Ungaretti's style is even more scanty, according to his hermetic poetics 

DDT


----------



## farfa

It's hard to translate.

 Feels like being leaves that stand on branches in Fall.


Cause it's not we, not personal, it's neutral, impersonal like everyone is shaking like leaves although we don't know. Just soldiers. 
Soliders shaking in fall.


----------



## _forumuser_

I see others have been allowed comments on the qualities of the poem, so I hope I will be allowed one too. I don't see anything special in this poem. The imagery is cliched at best. Falling leaves have been a symbol of frailty and impermanence in Chinese and Japanese verse for millennia. Consider, for instance, this line from a famous poem by Bo Juyi (772-846) made famous by Ezra Pound's early 20th century translation:

*                                                              The leaves fall early in autumn, in wind.

*But there are literally thousands of examples that elaborate on this theme. Ungaretti was probably very familiar with haiku and other oriental verse forms that were hugely popular in Europe before WWI. What is really remarkable about it for me is that the literary establishment was able to turn 10 words into a cultural case celebrated by so many. 

With apologies to those who love the piece, I felt a clarification was due.


----------



## Aidone

I would like to better understand what this poem means, sounds better to me than, I would like to understand better what this poem means. 

Si sta come d’autunno sugli alberi le foglie
One is just autumn on the trees, the leaves.

Perché si sta ma le foglie. "Si sta" posso avere una qualità del plurale? Oppure le foglie non è il soggetto?

Even possibly, 

It is just autumn on the trees, the leaves. 

Per le qualitià, propendo alla interpretazione di formuser, pero non mi conosce la storia d'intorno questo poema, e i poemi come le canzoni popolari, parlano dei luogi e tempi unici ed elaborano risonanze inspiegabili. (As for qualities, I lean to forumuser's take, but I don't know the history surrounding this poem and poems like popular songs speak to a unique time and place and develop ineffable resonances.)


----------



## MarcoMac

Of course, the sentence is purposedly built a bit oddly, it would be "correct" if it was (e.g.)
Si*amo* come le foglie sugli alberi *in* autunno

The slight ungrammaticallity asks to think "beyond", and to start a "wondering trip".

*Si sta* 
Why not "siamo" [we are] nor "stiamo" [we stay]? 
"Si sta": uncommon, impersonal construction that begs for a verb (e,g, si sta facendo buio) but there's no other verb. 
We are provided only with this uncomplete, suspended auxiliary... 
Thus, OK, it can be "we stay..." but as a suspended condition. "We stay" as a ill-condition of "we are", a sub-set of "to be", a crystallization of the existence.
The title kicks in: "Soldiers". We soldiers stay... and stay... and stay... and stay...
Slowly "we soldiers stay" comes to mean "we soldiers wait"... yet, we don't know _what_ we're waiting for... we _just_ stay.
We are taken to the life in a WW I trench: we stay... the enemies stay... everyone stays... everything stays... the world stays.
A whole life descripted by the means of an ungrammatical choice of "si sta" in place of "stiamo come le foglie" or "siamo come le foglie".

Those are the first two sillables, then there're another twelve to examine... 



Forumser: I like your posts, I like Haiku's and I love short poetry in general... so
Respect, bro...
Peace! 
...but here we're talking about an Absolute Giant.


----------



## Lello4ever

Aidone said:


> I would like to better understand what this poem means, sounds better to me than, I would like to understand better what this poem means.
> 
> Si sta come d’autunno sugli alberi le foglie
> One is just autumn on the trees, the leaves.
> 
> Perché si sta ma le foglie. "Si sta" posso avere una qualità del plurale? Oppure le foglie non è il soggetto?
> 
> Even possibly,
> 
> It is just autumn on the trees, the leaves.
> 
> Per le qualitià, propendo alla interpretazione di formuser, pero non mi conosce la storia d'intorno questo poema, e i poemi come le canzoni popolari, parlano dei luogi e tempi unici ed elaborano risonanze inspiegabili. (As for qualities, I lean to forumuser take, but I don't know the history surrounding this poem and poems like popular songs speak to a unique time and place and develop ineffable resonances.)


 
Si sta come d'autunno sugli alberi le foglie.
Stiamo (o siamo) come le foglie (stanno) sugli alberi in autunno.
The others explained the poetry very well.
You can have a look here too.


----------



## lsp

Aidone said:


> I would like to better understand what this poem means, sounds better to me than, I would like to understand better what this poem means.


I'm a native English speaker. Once upon a time it was considered grammatically incorrect to split an infinitive. Old habits die hard, as they say. However, your opinion is your opinion. 



			
				Aidone said:
			
		

> Perché si sta ma le foglie. "Si sta" posso può avere una qualità del plurale?


----------



## furs

I think that if you read this super-short poem as if it were all on one single line you kind of lose 90% of the 'pathos'.
Try reading it aloud like this (after all it was originally three lines, not one, if I recall correctly):
Si sta. (and then a long, long pause)
Come d'autunno (another pause)
sugli alberi (short pause) le foglie.
This is how my old literature professor at the Liceo used to read it. You'll agree it sounds different....


----------



## malak_azrael

Actually, the LITERAL translation is:

_It feels like
autumn
on trees
the leaves._

The grammar construction is "wrong" also in italian. It is a sort of dislocation, that emphasize the word "Autumn".
On a "normal" construction, it would be:

_Si sta come (It feels like)
le foglie d'autunno (autumn leaves)
sugli alberi (on trees)_


----------



## ohbice

*It feels like*
*in autumn?*
*...*

*Si sta come (We are like)*
*le foglie sugli alberi (leaves on trees)*
*d'autunno (in autumn)*

*In my modestissima opinion *
*(che poi alla fine in inglese la "dislocazione" c'è comunque...).*


----------



## malak_azrael

The fact is the pronoun "We" is not specified. It could also be "I feel". It is generic, vague.
That's why "It feels like" is more literal. Well, then it can be adapted in many ways, obviously.


----------



## ohbice

A parte il fatto che trovo l'essere letterale un po' ridicolo già nella prosa (figuriamoci nella poesia), ma It feels like non mi convince perché mi viene un "Sembra di". Qui è un certamente e fortemente "(Noi) si sta", non un "mi parrebbe di stare..."
Comunque il fatto che il soggetto sia sottointeso non implica che non vi sia. Ciao.
p
Ah, ho questo dubbio: _in autumn _non potrebbe actually essere _*on *autumn_?
Ciao
p


----------



## rrose17

ohbice said:


> Ah, ho questo dubbio: _in autumn _non potrebbe actually essere _*on *autumn_?


No, in autumn is correct, on autumn doesn't exist.


----------



## malak_azrael

A literal translaton is almost always wrong, when we talk about "finished transposition". But a literal translation is needed in order to understand the basic sense and THEN extract the nuances from it.
Ungaretti used an impersonal verb, so: yes, there's no specified subject.


----------



## bobes

We stay, like leaves on the autumn trees.


----------



## Pietruzzo

malak_azrael said:


> Ungaretti used an impersonal verb, so: yes, there's no specified subject.


Yes...maybe. Actually he could also have used the 1rd person plural alla toscana, "(Noi soldati) si sta come le foglie sugli alberi in autunno" i.e. we're all going to fall down(die)


----------



## furs

malak_azrael said:


> The grammar construction is "wrong" also in italian. It is a sort of dislocation, that emphasize the word "Autumn".



I beg to disagree: there is nothing 'wrong' here. Quite simply, the author used a well known figure of speech, called 'metatesi': https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figura_retorica. The purpose was -- as you correctly surmised -- to put emphasis, but on the verb, IMHO, rather than on anything else.


----------



## malak_azrael

Yes, "wrong" was in quotation marks. Because, according to italian grammatical rules, it is a "wrong" construction indeed.


----------



## furs

Sorry if I insist, but no, it isn't wrong at all.   Alas, figures of speech are no longer taught in school...


----------



## malak_azrael

A lot of figure of speech commits errors in order to obtain specific effects. They are not "error" of course. Because they have specific purposes which are considered valid. They are "wanted error". Anacholuton, outside poetry, is always considered an error, for example. And so also hyperbaton. "Di Mario sul tavolo la penna" DO reverses the CORRECT grammar construction, in italian basic rules. But yes, it is an hyperbaton, it is considered a valid use of rules breaking.


----------



## london calling

This is a translation into English, I quote:

_Here we are
like leaves from trees
in autumn_

Sounds good to me.

Another one:

_One is like leaves on the trees of autumn._

That sounds nice too.

I hold a degree in Italian: Hermetic Poetry was one of my favourite subjects.


----------



## sorry66

Si sta
come d’autunno
sugli alberi
le foglie

Nice translations LC, but they don't keep the odd word order of the Italian.

We are
like autumn
its trees
their leaves


----------



## ohbice

"Si sta come d'autuno sugli alberi le foglie" = Ci troviamo nella stessa situazione in cui si trovano le foglie sugli alberi durante la stagione autunnale (le foglie stanno per cadere dagli alberi, morte, è arrivato l'autunno - gli uomini stanno per cadere a terra, morti, dato che si trovano in prima linea durante la guerra).
Ciao
p


----------



## sorry66

(Here) we are
on autumn's 
trees
like leaves


----------



## london calling

sorry66 said:


> Nice translations LC, but they don't keep the odd word order of the Italian.


They're official translations, not mine.


----------



## malak_azrael

In fact, I don't understand why not keep the original sentence structure. This poem has about 4 main peculiarities (The structure is one of them), and it is not untranslatable at all.


----------



## london calling

malak_azrael said:


> In fact, I don't understand why not keep the original sentence structure. This poem has about 4 characteristics, and it is not untranslatable at all.


Because a literal translation doesn't sound at all poetic in English.


----------



## Pietruzzo

sorry66 said:


> (Here) we are
> on autumn's
> trees
> like leaves


Don't forget the title, which can be considered the first verse of the poem
*Soldiers*
Standing there
like in Autumn
on the trees
leaves do
Well, "standing there" looks like a quotation of The Beatles, actually.


----------



## malak_azrael

london calling said:


> Because a literal translation doesn't sound at all poetic in English.



Well, that's a good reason indeed. But why? Hyperbaton does exists also in english, does it? Or maybe in this case it is inevitably cacophonous? It is not rhetoric, I'm really curious.


----------



## sorry66

@Pietruzzo
I'd alter yours like this:
Soldiers
Waiting
like in autumn
on the trees
as leaves do.

I'll change mine too:
Soldiers
Waiting
as in autumn
on the trees
like leaves


----------



## london calling

Pietruzzo said:


> Don't forget the title, which can be considered the first verse of the poem
> *Soldiers*
> Standing there
> like in Autumn
> on the trees
> leaves do
> Well, "standing there" looks like a quotation of The Beatles, actually.


You're right. Not at all poetic, Pietruzzo, in my opinion.  Quite apart from your use of 'like' (frowned on by many, including myself: I would use 'as if' here).



malak_azrael said:


> Well, that's a good reason indeed. But why? Hyperbaton does exists also in english, does it? Or maybe in this case it is inevitably cacophonous? It is not rhetoric, I'm really curious.


Of course hyperbaton exists in English. I did think about it, but couldn't come up with anything which convinced me.

Visto però che non ho 'offerto' una mia versione, eccola: 

_Soldiers
We are as leaves in autumn on the trees._


----------



## sorry66

Or a different word order:

The leaves
on trees
of autumn
are we.


----------



## bobes

Questo accanimento nel voler portare una poesia di 8 parole da una lingua all'altra merita attenzione.

*Soldati*
_Si sta come d'autunno sugli alberi le foglie_

Si sta = stare, senso di attesa, accettazione e mistero;
come d'autunno, sugli alberi = è una molla che si sta caricando, non sappiamo ancora dove vuole arrivare, sono cose apparentemente banali ma il _come_ iniziale è un presagio;
le foglie = è la chiave di tutto, scarica la tensione, si collega con il titolo unendo inizio e fine (soldati - foglie), lascia al lettore la conclusione non detta (le foglie anche loro stanno);
L'inizio (soldati) precede il corpo, la fine (stanno) segue il corpo: soldati *si sta come d'autunno sugli alberi le foglie* stanno.


----------



## ohbice

Soldati l'inizio? ma soldati che c'entra? Boh, che strana analisi, pensare che il titolo faccia parte della poesia. Se l'ho sentita/letta 1000 volte in vita mia, mille volte l'ho sentita/letta priva del titolo. Vuol dire che mi sono sempre rapportato a una poesia incompleta?
Molto perplesso 
p


----------



## london calling

Ma il titolo non fa parte della poesia, OB. Io l'ho messo così, visto che Pietruzzo l'ha nominato.


----------



## GiorgioS

lsp said:


> I would like to understand better what this means. I believe it may be a poem, possibly well know in Italy, so I would also like to know who wrote it, if that is the case.
> 
> Si sta come d’autunno sugli alberi le foglie
> 
> Thanks, Lsp



It's like being
in the autumn
on the trees
the leaves


----------



## pebblespebbles

Come non farsi tentare da Ungaretti?
My try: 
Soldiers
"In the Fall
we stay
like the leaveas
in a tree"


----------



## lentulax

Well, as a native English speaker who can't help being tempted by any discussion about literary translation, I would say the second essential of any translation of this poem is to preserve the structure  : ' we(everyone) - autumn - trees - leaves', and the first essential is to finish with 'leaves' ; 
The French doesn't match the Italian, and I don't think it's possible to translate such a sparse poem effectively into English (the versions above which preserve the structure don't sound natural enough) ; but surely , leaving aside the rhythms, etc., of the original, the core of the meaning is in the movement from 'Si sta' to 'foglie'?
Rather than read a translation, anyone wanting to understand the poem and knowing no Italian at all would do better to look up in a dictionary any word he couldn't guess and then go back to reading the original.


----------



## ArrigoB

My translation would be: 
We are like leaves 
on Autumn trees.


----------



## symposium

We stand like leaves
on a tree 
in autumn.
Or: We stay like leaves...


----------



## london calling

symposium said:


> We stand like leaves
> on a tree
> in autumn.
> Or: We stay like leaves...


Leaves can't 'stand' on anything. And they don't 'stay' either. They 'are'.


----------



## symposium

Of course, but soldiers do both stand and stay...


----------



## london calling

symposium said:


> Of course, but soldiers do both stand and stay...


Yes, but leaves don't, so a soldier can't stand or stay like a leaf. He can only be like a leaf.


----------



## symposium

I was looking for a verb that conveyed more the idea of a physical condition, of a physical position, the way the original does: we stand here, not just we are here...


----------



## london calling

symposium said:


> I was looking for a verb that conveyed more the idea of a physical condition, of a physical position, the way the original does: we stand here, not just we are here...


L'avevo capito, ma in inglese non regge.


----------



## lentulax

The fact that in English a choice has to be made between 'stand' and 'are' , since no single word combines  the suggestions of the two, is the first reason why no English translation of the poem is effective. The suggestions of permanence, immobility (our existence, the soldiers' situation) in 'Si sta' are undermined by the development of the poem. The professional ranslation quoted above : 
'Here we are
like leaves from trees
in autumn'
is simply wrong - not 'leaves *from* trees' - neither  fallen from nor falling from - they're still on the trees! (Of course, we all know they soon won't be - but the poem doesn't *say* this). 

Re ohbice's 'Soldati che c'entra' (#41) : whilst titles of poems are often simply matters of convenience, and sometimes provided even by editors rather than the writers, this poem was given its title by Ungaretti, it belongs to a section in the book specifically referring to a particular period in the First World War, and has a note attached by Ungaretti giving the date and location in which it was written (as near as I remember, bosco di Courton, ?? 1918) - it would seem to me that when an author so insistently provides a context for his verses, it can't be right to ignore it; and  if you read the poem without the title you won't understand all that the writer meant to convey in his piece (after all, he called it Soldati, not Uomini).


----------



## Starless74

Perhaps _we linger_ may convey the sense of being suspended, waiting for the inevitable?


----------



## Odysseus54

Dai, cimentiamoci :

Like leaves on Autumn trees we hang.


----------



## Palova

Per comprendere meglio questa " frase", dobbiamo pensare ad un significato piu' ampio , essa può essere collegata a moltissime situazioni della nostra vita .
Immaginatevi gli anziani che sono arrivati  all' autunno della loro vita ( l' albero ), in questo momento sono molto fragili ed è sufficiente un piccolo alito di vento per  farli staccare dal ramo e farli cadere .


----------



## Mary49

Palova said:


> Per comprendere meglio questa " frase", dobbiamo pensare ad un significato piu' ampio , essa può essere collegata a moltissime situazioni della nostra vita .
> Immaginatevi gli anziani che sono arrivati  all' autunno della loro vita ( l' albero ), in questo momento sono molto fragili ed è sufficiente un piccolo alito di vento per  farli staccare dal ramo e farli cadere .


Non è una "frase", ma una poesia di Ungaretti. E non penso che Ungaretti, scrivendola, avesse in mente gli anziani...


----------

