# Persian/English gab "talk at length"



## CyrusSH

As you read here, _gab_/_gap_ can be found in different Iranian languages with the meaning of "talk much", does it relate to the English _gab_?


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## PersoLatin

There is at least one thread on Persian _gap_.


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## CyrusSH

Thanks, fdb said in that thread that they probably relate to each other.


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## Treaty

CyrusSH said:


> Thanks, fdb said in that thread that they probably relate to each other.


He didn't suggest a relationship between them.


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## CyrusSH

Treaty said:


> He didn't suggest a relationship between them.



In two posts he has compared the Persian word to the English word and suggested that both of them have imitative/onomatopoetic origin.


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## CyrusSH

It is good to mention that in some Persian dialects _gop_ means "mouth", like in Bakhtiari: معنی گُپ | لهجه و گویش بختیاری English _gob_ has a similar meaning, Persian _gap_ has also been compared to English _gap_ and _gape_: معنی گپ | واژه‌نامه آزاد


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## PersoLatin

CyrusSH said:


> In two posts he has compared the Persian word to the English word and suggested that both of them have imitative/onomatopoetic origin.


But this doesn’t mean etymologically related, and you know that. There are many imitative/onomatopoetic words that are shared among unrelated languages.


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## CyrusSH

PersoLatin said:


> But this doesn’t mean etymologically related, and you know that. There are many imitative/onomatopoetic words that are shared among unrelated languages.



This thing that they are of imitative origin should be proved by fdb, but as I mentioned in my previous post there seem to be other similarities too, so there could be a stronger relation. Of course many imitative/onomatopoetic words in different languages can be related too, for example _stertorous_ has a PIE imitative root: stertorous | Origin and meaning of stertorous by Online Etymology Dictionary


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## PersoLatin

CyrusSH said:


> This thing that they are of imitative origin should be proved by fdb, but as I mentioned in my previous post there seem to be other similarities too, so there could be a stronger relation. Of course many imitative/onomatopoetic words in different languages can be related too, for example _stertorous_ has a PIE imitative root: stertorous | Origin and meaning of stertorous by Online Etymology Dictionary


My point was that you seem to un/intentionally misinterpret  that statement and go on to talk about other examples, as if a fact has been established, you often use this tactic. I don't know if the two words in the OP are etymologically linked, on the face of it they appear to be, but that needs to be proved beyond where we are now and you need to stay focused on it, maybe you should have started with stertorous  and then went on to others.

I used to believe that even imitative/onomatopoetic words were specific to language families and some may be, but I have seen some examples on this form that casts some doubts on that, so the jury is still out on those. I am still investigating the examples that made me think that way.


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## CyrusSH

PersoLatin said:


> My point was that you seem to un/intentionally misinterpret  that statement and go on to talk about other examples, as if a fact has been established, you often use this tactic. I don't know if the two words in the OP are etymologically linked, on the face of it they appear to be, it needs to be proved beyond where we are now and you need to stay focused on it, maybe you should have started with stertorous  and then went on to others.



I'm here to ask my questions and receive convincing answers, when it is said X and Y have a similar origin (imitative, onomatopoetic, ...) then it can be said that they *probably* relate to each other, for example there can be a PIE imitative root. If you have have another interpretation, please talk about it.


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## Treaty

This is how it is suggested:
1- Celtic _gob _(borrowed by Eng.) < PIE _ĝep_/_ĝebh _> Ir. _zafān _(> P_. dahān_).
2- English _gap/gape_ (to open mouth > opening) < PIE _ĝhē(u), _with no Indo-Iranian cognate listed by Pokorny.
3- English _gab _(talk) < (Norse gabba?) probably imitative.
4- Iranian _gap _(talk) < probably imitative.
5- SW (?) Iranian _kap/kup/gap_ (mouth) < ?

For the sake of argument, let's even assume the couplets _mouth>talk_ are related in each language (i.e. #2>#3 and #5>#4 from above). There is still no evidence for relation between the English/Germanic and Iranian words (i.e. #2~#5), because PIE *_ĝhē _has a very low chance of getting _k/g_ in Iranian.


CyrusSH said:


> they *probably* relate to each other


No. "probably" doesn't mean just having some mathematical probability. It refers to a degree of certainty. We don't have this certainty because we don't know when these words came into being. Comparing to the other example *_pster_, the latter has twice phonological complexity and is attested in at least twice as many IE branches (probable thrice, if we consider Albanian and some Persian dialects). So, the probability of PIE *_pster _is four times (in logarithmic scale) higher than that of a possible PIE root for _gab _(talk). 


CyrusSH said:


> Persian _gap_ has also been compared to English _gap_ and _gape_: معنی گپ | واژه‌نامه آزاد


By whom? Based on what? You should stop referring to whatever you find on internet, and give it false credibility by using such wordings.


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## PersoLatin

CyrusSH said:


> for example there can be a PIE imitative root. If you have have another interpretation, please talk about it


Ok, as long as we understand that:
1 - Existence of words with proven 'PIE imitative' roots doesn't preclude the same word from being independently developed in other language families.
2 - Imitative words can develop independently, within the same family group, even within dialects of one of the languages of it.

And because of those, 'imitative' makes an etymological link worthless, certainly less worthy, unless maybe if a word can be proven to be 1- _imitative_ 2- has impeccable roots in the _proto-_ version with no messing, i.e. not using backward formation etc. and 3- not to have been used in another language family, plus other qualifying factors. Extinct languages have to considered in all of this. As a matter of interest I think Persian mama/mamé and Latin mammo- for breast and the development of 'mum' from it, might qualify the criterion I knocked together.


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## CyrusSH

Treaty said:


> This is how it is suggested:
> 1- Celtic _gob _(borrowed by Eng.) < PIE _ĝep_/_ĝebh _> Ir. _zafān _(> P_. dahān_).



According to wiktionary English _gob_ is of uncertain origin, of course Old Irish _gop_ also means "mouth", as far as I know Celtic has _p_ sound either from loanwords or PIE *_kʷ_, Avestan _zafan_ has the same meaning too but proto-IE _*p_ could be changed to _f_ just in Avestan consonant clusters and if Persian _dahan_ has also the same origin then how PIE _*p_ changed to _h_ in Persian, I think we have this sound shift just in Armenian. And if the PIE word had _*bh_ (instead of _*p_) then none of these words could be from this PIE root. There could be PIE _ĝekʷ_?! Persian دک و دهن?


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## Treaty

My bad. I forget to mention there is a _(h)_ listed after -_p_ in the PIE root. _*ph>*f_ is common in Iranian (e.g., IIr. *_kapha_> P. _kaf _"foam"). I don't no how common _f>h_ is in Persian (it is not uncommon in some dialects) but there are other examples like _kōf > kōh_ or *_zafyāi_ > MP _zahyāi_ (depth) (cognate of _žarf_<_zafr-_). 


CyrusSH said:


> According to wiktionary English _gob_ is of uncertain origin


Did you check the rest of the etymology there? OxED only mentions the Celtic _gob_-. Of course, it is uncertain, but most plausible at this stage of knowledge.


CyrusSH said:


> Old Irish _gop_ also means "mouth", as far as I know Celtic has _p_ sound either from loanwords or PIE *_kʷ_


No, Irish _p_ can be from Celtic _b_ (it is in P-Celtic that PIE *_kw_ becomes _p_. Irish is a Q-Celtic language with PIE *_kw>x/k_). In this case, it is IE *_bh _> Proto-Celt. *_b > _Irish _b/p_ (which also depends on its declension). The Iranian and Celtic words would have come from different variants of the same PIE root (respectively *_ĝeph _and *_ĝebh_).  


CyrusSH said:


> There could be PIE _ĝekʷ_?! Persian دک و دهن?


Not everything should have a PIE root, and not every Persian _d_ has a *_ĝ _origin (there are _dh_ and _d_ possibilities as well)_. _By the way, _dak _apparently means "head", so is unrelated to the topic here.


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## CyrusSH

Treaty said:


> My bad. I forget to mention there is a _(h)_ listed after -_p_ in the PIE root. _*ph>*f_ is common in Iranian (e.g., IIr. *_kapha_> P. _kaf _"foam").



What do you mean by _h_? There are just *_h₁_, *_h₂_, *_h₃_ in PIE, like in PIE *_ph₂tḗr_ "father" but it didn't change to _f_ in Avestan.

About Persian words _kaf_ (kaftan), _waf_ (waftan), ... as fdb explained in another thread,  the /f/ in Middle and New Iranian is from the perfect passive participle *wab-ta- > waft, with the /f/ generalised to the other forms.


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## Treaty

CyrusSH said:


> What do you mean by _h_? There are just *_h₁_, *_h₂_, *_h₃_ in PIE, like in PIE *_ph₂tḗr_ "father" but it didn't change to _f_ in Avestan.
> About Persian words _kaf_ (kaftan), _waf_ (waftan), ... as fdb explained in another thread,  the /f/ in Middle and New Iranian is from the perfect passive participle *wab-ta- > waft, with the /f/ generalised to the other forms.


_h_ as the sign of aspiration (like _h_ in *_bh or *dh, _so giving _*ĝeph_). The PIE h# are separate sounds. Regarding _kaf<*kapha_, it is already addressed in this and this thread.


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## CyrusSH

There is no *_ph_ in PIE phonology, in another thread about Avestan _xumba_, fdb also added *_kh_ to PIE consonants, these are PIE consonants:


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## Treaty

There are different theories about PIE phonology extending from 1861 to present. There are _ph_, _kh _and even _th_ in some, but absent from others. However, in any case the instances of the aspirated voiceless stops are very rare.


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## CyrusSH

Now about the second one:



Treaty said:


> 2- English _gap/gape_ (to open mouth > opening) < PIE _ĝhē(u), _with no Indo-Iranian cognate listed by Pokorny.



According to both wiktionary and etymonline, the first PIE consonant is _*gʰ_, not _*ǵʰ_, and PIE _*gʰ_ can be certainly changed to _g_ in Iranian languages, compare to Avestan _gǝrǝpta_ (Persian _gereftan_) and proto-Germanic *_grapa_ (English _grab_).


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## Treaty

It is a font issue. In the Etymonline page click on "yawn" link, including cognates in Satem languages with _z/ž/j_, which points to PIE *_ĝ._


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## CyrusSH

Treaty said:


> It is a font issue. In the Etymonline page click on "yawn" link, including cognates in Satem languages with _z/ž/j_, which points to PIE *_ĝ._



Wiktionary mentions PIE _*ghēp-_, English _gape_ and _yawn_ have different proto-Germanic origins: *_gapōną_ "to gape" and *_ginōną_ "to yawn", I see no reason to consider a common PIE root for them.


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## berndf

- _Gab_: There is no of a relation between _gab _on the one side and either _gap_ or _gape_ on the other side.
- _Gape/gap_: a relationship with _yawn _is plausible (_probable _might be to strong a word). It is is then the _p_ remains unexplained.

In the absence of further evidence, the most plausible answer to the question of this thread is that both are independent imitative words.


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## CyrusSH

I can't understand how they can be imitative, for example English _hiccup_ and Persian _hikuk_ mean to imitate the sound produced by the convulsion of the diaphragm: hiccup | Origin and meaning of hiccup by Online Etymology Dictionary but _gab_ sounds like what?!


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## berndf

In Germanic, it belongs to the group of what is called "babble words". In Low and High German alone, I can give you five off the top of my head: _kabbeln, sabbeln,  babbeln, gabbeln, lab(b)ern_ (the _-el-_ is a frequentative suffix; _lab(b)ern _is from _labben_, imitating the sound of how a dog drinks).


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## CyrusSH

berndf said:


> In Germanic, it belongs to the group of what is called "babble words". In Low and High German alone, I can give you five off the top of my head: _kabbeln, sabbeln,  babbeln, gabbeln, lab(b)ern_ (the _-el-_ is a frequentative suffix; _lab(b)ern _is from _labben_, imitating the sound of how a dog drinks).



I searched at dwds.de but I didn't find anything about _gabbeln_, what does it mean? Do you mean _gabeln_ "to fork"?


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## berndf

_Gabbeln _is Low German. It means _giggle_.


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## CyrusSH

berndf said:


> _Gabbeln _is Low German. It means _giggle_.



So it doesn't relate to English _gab_, I think in many languages 'laughing' related words begin with _g_.


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## berndf

CyrusSH said:


> So it doesn't to English _gab_, I think in many languages 'laughing' related words begin with _g_.


Root meaning of Low German and Dutch _gabben_ as well as English _gab _is _to jest, to mock_.


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## CyrusSH

Isn't it strange that Persian _gigle_ means the same?! معنی گیگله | لغت‌نامه دهخدا


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