# Assimilation of Consonants Between Words ?



## benlugosch

Hello,

I had a pretty sharp disagreement with a native Greek speaker (I'm not one) about when and whether assimilation of consonants occurs across word boundaries. I think I hear it all the time, and she said it never happens. She was pretty insistent and rejected grammar books where it's discussed as being out of date. 

For example, in στην παραλία I hear "sin baralia," not stin paralia," and τον πατέρα sounds like "ton batera," and not "ton patera." I also hear στην Κρήτη pronounced "stin griti," and not "stin Kriti." There are many other examples : στην τάξη  = "stin daxi" and not "stin taxi" . . . 

Do I need a hearing aid, or is she just mistaken about this? If she's mistaken, how could a native speaker not think it happens? 

Thanks -bl


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## uress

You hear it well, she makes a mistake.
This is a basic thing in linguistics, it happens with the voiceless plosiva (and it's connected with the assimilation of the n):
1. n+t >(n+d),
2. n+k (>η+g) where η means the nasal n which is represented by -ng in English and we have the same not only with the g but with the χ,γ, too,
3. n+p (>m'+b, where -in this m+p(+b/v)- m' is actually not the usual m but I don't have the proper sign fot it).
Then we have a similar assimilation with s+all voiced consonants, s>z i.e. it becomes voiced.

But to tell you something ineteresting about this n-assimilition: depending on the certain dialect the n (I mean it's new assimilated sound) is to hear in different volumes: the lenght of this "n" changes, in some dialect you don't hear almost anything, you could say you hear nothing of it, and in other dialects you can really hear it. And another interesting thing is about it that most Greeks are unable to pronounce the d, g, b without this "n" before it. 
Actually I reminded another interesting thing about the n+consonants  N with non-plosiva: the n changes to that non-plosive and as in Greek there are no long consonants you will pronounce only one of them, and you don't write it either and it looks as if the n had disappeared but actually it was orginally an assimiltion, too.


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## Acestor

She probably can't hear herself speak.

See
Modern Greek phonology - Wikipedia
Or 7 and 8 here:
Sandhi Phenomena in the Languages of Europe


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## benlugosch

Thanks for the very helpful and prompt replies. I'd probably be hard pressed to notice or explain what I do in English as a native speaker too. -bl


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## Acestor

Well, first of all you say "can't", not /kand/.


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## uress

If you realize and notice what non-natives say in a strange way you can think about the difference between their and your pronounciation 
E.g. Greeks very often say ah instead of (no sign for this kind of a-e, see batman). Or Hungarians say n+g in -ng, like in sing. Etc.


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## Perseas

benlugosch said:


> If she's mistaken, how could a native speaker not think it happens?


It may seem very simple, but probably she hasn't ever thought or heard of this kind of assimilation. The average native speaker not only is unaware of such linguistic phenomenons but also they don't have ever tried to hear themselves speak (as Acestor put it). Most people have in mind the written image of the words. Because they write "δεν πειράζει" (δen pirazi), they also think that they pronounce that, and not  [δembirazi].


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## uress

Natives make all the assimilation (and everthing) automatically and if they don't learn about it or think about it when learning other languages they just don't realize it. It's another question that she was stubborn and didn't even want to think about this assimilitation issue. I think someelse would 've said an "aha".


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## benlugosch

We can think of the American aversion to the dentals / nasals / sibilants as in "enz" instead of "ends"; "sah in" instead of "satin." Of course there's always "didjew" instead of "did you," and so on. Still, it irked me a little. She was pretty dismissive and immune to reason, evidence, and authority -- the grammar books, not mine.


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## sotos

uress said:


> n+k^χ (>η+k,χ)



n+k > g (γκ)


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## benlugosch

sotos: Exactly. At least I think so ;-) I read your formula as nasal + palatal turns into an voiced palatal. Far off? As curious as I am about language, I really should take the time to learn these linguistic symbols ;-)


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## benlugosch

Uress: Thanks for the follow up:


Do you mean like the word for "tooth" becoming "dodi" from δόντι, when the nasal -n- disappears [almost] entirely, and "pede" from "πέντε,"  κα.

You all seem exceptionally well informed about these matters. Are you linguists by profession as well as being native Greek speakers?

What a fabulous resource I've stumbled upon here! I hope you don't mind if I post other questions I have about Greek.


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## uress

sotos said:


> n+k (>η+g)
> n+k > g (γκ)



Oh-oups, I messed up the keyboards and so everything then  Edited.
Could you delete the mistake from the quote not to confuse others?


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## uress

benlugosch said:


> Do you mean like the word for "tooth" becoming "dodi" from δόντι, when the nasal -n- disappears entirely, and "pede" from "πέντε," κα.



Actually I never heard yet anyone to swallow the nasal totally, I always could hear a slight nasal that's why I said almost nothing. But it can be really so short that you could practically call it nothing.
But it's more obvious, I mean easier to observe, in foreign words used by the Greek speaker because everyone tends to use the same length of n as he pronounces it in Greek words. I can remember e.g. someone in Salonica who called our friend Edit "Endit" -I would say with about the 3/4 of an n.


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## yaryalitsa

*Κ*.........................A.................*Π*....................Ο....................*Τ*.......................Ε
*γκ (γγ)* ('g' sound)....................*μπ *('b' sound)....................*ντ* ('d' sound)....................
*ξ* (κ + σ)............................*ψ *(π + σ) .......................*τζ *ή* τσ* (τ + σ)....................


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## benlugosch

Perseas said:


> It may seem very simple, but probably she hasn't ever thought or heard of this kind of assimilation. The average native speaker not only is unaware of such linguistic phenomenons but also they don't have ever tried to hear themselves speak (as Acestor put it). Most people have in mind the written image of the words. Because they write "δεν πειράζει" (δen pirazi), they also think that they pronounce that, and not  [δembirazi].




Another interesting discovery I've made that underlines your point is that the elementary and intermediate textbooks I've consulted never talk about this phenomenon, and yet it happens all the time in their accompanying audio files.


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## uress

Good textbooks show it from the beginning, because yes, it's really important.

Yaryalitsa: 2.line: yes, it's no matter if the p-t-k stands alone or accompanied by an s, if with s, the s changes to z as well.


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## benlugosch

uress said:


> Good textbooks show it from the beginning, because yes, it's really important.
> 
> Yaryalitsa: 2.line: yes, it's no matter if the p-t-k stands alone or accompanied by an s, if with s, the s changes to z as well.



Could you suggest a good introductory Greek text? I'm using Papaloizos's Greek 123, and it's increasingly been disappointing for many reasons.


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## uress

_Actually not really. Because every textbook has it's good and bad sites. And I ve never seen any I was totally (or approximately totally) content with. So when teaching I always use a lot of my own materials. And textbooks should be specialized or adapted to the learner's native language because every nation has quite different differences to the Greek language._


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## benlugosch

I suspect that sometimes these assimilations occur and sometimes they don't. 

For example, I'm listening to a lesson recording in which there isn't an assimilation between στην and τάξη. It's pronounced steen taxee, and not steen daxee. Is this a matter of usage -- some words like τάξη don't ever assimilate -- or preference at any given time? That is, the speaker could have said "steen daxee," but just decided not to for whatever reason. 

Thanks again.


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## uress

Was it a real native Greek? (Can you send it to me?) _I can remember audios made by emigrants (or their children?) and it was clearly to hear that they were living abroad and pronounced many sounds adapted to that country's sound system._
Assimilations aren't a matter of choise. In any language. You can "neglect them" when you are speaking very slowly or you want underline that it IS a t but in everyday's speaking you just don't do that.


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## benlugosch

I'm not sure if a Greek-Greek (i.e., born and raised in Greece).  I believe the book was written in Canada. But he -- the voice of the recordings -- has definitely assimilated before in between words. It must be that in this case, for reasons of his own, he decided to keep the consonants distinct. 

Is it possible to attach things to these posts? I can clip out the section and send it you if I can do that.


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