# Although/ obwohl/hoewel (concessive conjunctions)



## ThomasK

I have been intrigued for some time now by the nature of concessive clauses, and maybe the meaning of the conjunctions will help to understand it better. What strikes me is that there seems to be something 'nice' in them: German -wohl/Dutch -well refer to the adverb 'well' (< good), German zwar/ Dutch weliswaar refer to 'waar/ wahr', true... 

Some other nice 'parts' of concessive conjunctions: 
- German : *obgleich *(_gleich _= equal)
- French: _*bien que *(bien _= good)
- Dutch : *o*_*fschoon*,_ fairly formal (s_choon =_ nice, beautiful)
- Dutch : _ook al _(not so sure whether it can be considered positive, but o_ok =_ also, too)

So I suppose concessive clause start from the recognition of something as positive, and then add a negative element, a negative nuance. But I am not quite sure. 

But do you perceive any positive words/ elements in concessive conjunctions in your language?


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## arielipi

In hebrew it is (in my opinion) neutral to negative,
most of them are either 'despite, in spite of, even though'


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## ThomasK

There is indeed *despite *in English, which is related with _to despise_, and which cannot possibly be considered positive indeed. That reminds me _*malgré *_in French (wrong + grace, or something the like), the equivalent of *ondanks *(un-thanks) in Dutch.  The least I can say so far is that my hypothesis was at least not complete... ;-(

However, if you can analyse the word, please do. Can you analyse the Hebrew word, Arielipi?


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## arielipi

In hebrew you have many many conjunction words for each type of conjunction.
Actually two types of hebrew conj. words are mapped to the english concessive clauses.
each type is unique to when you want to mark something (result, addition etc)

type one is "to mark/note a negation to the expected" and is of 'concession' connection (e.g. it was very cold but didnt rain): 
על אף ש al af she even though
אף על פי ש although
חרף ה kheref ha... even though (of something bad), despite
אף על פי כן af al pi chen even though that, in spite of that
אף כי af ki even that
אף אם af im even/despite if
גם אם gam im even/despite if
אפילו afilu even
למרות ה lamrot ha.... although/in spite/despite
למרות זאת lamrot zot although/nevertheless
בכל זאת bechol zot even though, despite the above
עם זאת im zot nevertheless, even with that (= not taking into consideration)
בכל אופן bechol ofen anyway
מכל מקום mikol makom anyway
על כל פנים al kol panim anyway


the second type is to mark objection, rejection and is of connection type opposition: (cold - hot)
בעוד ש be'od she while
בו בזמן ש bo bizman she at the same time that
לעומת ה le'umat ha... as opposed to
לעומת זאת le'umat zot on the other hand
אבל aval but
אמנם omnam indeed, surely
אך ach but, alas
אולם ulam but (semi-negation to what was said above)
ברם bram but
אפס כי efes ki non will
עם זאת im zot see above
לא.... אלא lo... ela not (the negated text) but
ואילו ve'ilu and that (opposed to)
בניגוד לכך benigud lechach opposed to that
מאידך גיסא me'idach gisa on the other hand
מנגד mineged opposed, on the other side
מצד אחד.... מצד שני mitzad ekhad.... (text) mitzad sheni on the one side..... on the other side.


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## ThomasK

Good Lord, I sincerely do not wish everyone to publish such an exhaustive list. Just some main conjunctions will do. But thanks a lot, Arielipi. I had a look, and just wondered about the *im*: is there some way of describing its precise meaning? Is the word 'even' translated in one way? I suppose it is not, I see all kinds of different words.


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## arielipi

אם im is if
עם im is with
על al is on
כי ki is because
בכל bechol is in all
כל col is all
אף af is even
פי pi is semi-though
כן chen is also, as well, approval.

Thats what i said in the first place: hebrew has many words in this subject, and the exact meaning is hard to translate because the words (when giving these meanings) are chained with each other.


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## apmoy70

In Greek a concessive clause is introduced with: 

1/ *«Παρόλο»* [pa'rolo] (conj.) --> _although_ < compound, Classical adv. & prep. *«πάρα» pắră* --> _besides, by, alongside_ (PIE *prh₂-/*preh₂-, _beside, by_) + neuter form *«ὅλον» hólŏn*, of adj. *«ὅλος» hólŏs* --> _whole_ (PIE *sol(H)-uo-, _whole_). Babiniotis gives it a Katharevousa construction --> *«παρ' ὅλον»* < Modern Gr. *«παρόλο»* --> _although, despite._

2/ *«Ενώ»* [e'no] (conj.) --> _during_ < Byz. Greek conj. *«ἐνῷ» enộ* < Classical set phrase *«ἐν ᾧ (χρόνῳ)» ĕn hộ (kʰrónǭ)* --> _during the (time, is omitted)_.

3/ *«Ενόσω»* [e'noso] (conj.) --> _while_ < Byz. Greek conj. *«ἐνόσῳ» enósǭ* < Classical set phrase *«ἐν ὅσῳ» ĕn hósǭ* --> _in the course of_


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## ThomasK

Interesting to notice that 'all' seems omnipresent. The Greek _*Ενώ and *_*ἐνόσῳ *remind me of durative words, which seem to constitute another category of concessive conjunctions: Dutch *terwijl *(while), French *tandis que*, English *whereas *(I don't think while can be used in a concessive sense)...


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## arielipi

ThomasK said:


> English *whereas *(I don't think while can be used in a concessive sense)...


In hebrew it sure is... and as i said above, we have many more conj. types and many words for each.


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## Ёж!

Russian:
1. «хотя» ("wanting", probably "wanting to say"): «Я отказался от покупки, *хотя* было недорого» ("I didn't buy it, *though* it was not expensive").
2. «всё равно» ("all the same"): «Было недорого, но я *всё равно* отказался от покупки" ("It was not expensive, but I didn't buy it *nevertheless*/*anyway*").
 3. «тем не менее» ("not less {with/because of} that", i.e. "nevertheless"): «Было недорого, но *тем не менее* я отказался от покупки» (the same).
4. Some formal compounds like «несмотря на» ("not looking at"). They have to be used with demonstrative pronouns, and demonstrative pronouns tend to look and sound bad in Russian.


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## ThomasK

So in Russian I could recognize something like 'all', negative forms [which we don't have except in ondanks/ malgré/ despite, but not used as a conjunction]. 

The 'wanting' is intriguing. I could imagine something like 'in weerwil van' (in counter-will of, literally) in Dutch, but this 'wanting' seems different, not negative for example. Is it still used to literally refer to 'to want'? 

The *though/ doch (toch) *is very common in Germanic languages, I think, but the origin is not clear: maybe 'but', maybe a form of the second pers. sg., maybe even a demonstrative pronoun... 

I found some more more equivalents in French: _ *e*_*ncore que *[also], _quoique [what ???], *malgré que *_[neg. prefix _+ gré/ _grâce, maybe the same as will !],  _*même si *_[even if, which is universal, I suppose, can literally be translated into other languages]_, quand, quand même _[the latter is not a conjunction, I think]. .


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## Ёж!

ThomasK said:


> The 'wanting' is intriguing. I could imagine something like 'in weerwil van' (in counter-will of, literally) in Dutch, but this 'wanting' seems different, not negative for example. Is it still used to literally refer to 'to want'?


 No. Morphologically, this is exactly the verbal adverb of the verb «хотеть» (to want, to wish, etc), but nobody ever uses this word as a verbal adverb nowadays, which is why the verb «хотеть» does not have one now.

    If you analyse the phrase as "I didn't buy it, _though_ _I'd like to say_ it was not expensive", you won't be completely off the mark semantically, but I don't know how exactly this situation historically came to be. One can also shorten «хотя» to «хоть» (one vowel less), which is never possible for orthodox verbal adverbs.


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## ThomasK

So I could say it is some kind of fossil, no longer analysed in any way, like most of the conjunctions...


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## Ёж!

Yes, but available to anyone for immediate analysing.


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## sakvaka

In Finnish, _although_/_even though_ *and* _even if_ are both translated with the word _vaikka_. That's why we usually mess the two words up in English.

_Vaikka_ appears to be related to the word _vai_ (or) by some means. The positivity or negativity can be enhanced with the additional particles -_kin_ and -_kaan_ like this:

_Vaikka oletkin täysi-ikäinen, et voi tehdä mitä haluat._ Even though you're an adult, you can't do whatever you like.
_Vaikka et olekaan täysi-ikäinen, on sinulla kuitenkin velvollisuuksia._ Even though you're not an adult, you still have duties.


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## bibax

In Czech it is crystal clear:

 although, even though = *přestože*;

"přes to, že" means "despite that, that", i.e. "despite the fact, that" (to = demonstrative that; že = conj. that). As a conjunction it is written together "přestože".

It is similar to the conjunction *protože* = because ("pro to, že" means literally "for that, that"). The meaning is different, of course.

 Nekoupil jsem to, *přestože* to nebylo drahé. = I didn't buy it, though (= despite the fact that) it was not expensive.
Nekoupil jsem to, *protože* to bylo drahé. = I didn't buy it, because (= for the fact that) it was expensive.

Russian «хотя» is 'chtě' in Czech. It is the so called present transgressive (something like present participle, but not the same) of the verb 'chtíti' (= to want). It is used in the phrase "chtě nechtě" (= volens nollens, willy-nilly). Chtě is not a conjuction in Czech.

Like in Russian there are other formal constructions, e.g. "nehledě na to, že" (= «несмотря на ...», "not looking at that, that"; nehledě (= not looking) is also the present transgressive); "navzdory" = in spite of (vzdor = defiance), "navzdory tomu, že" = in spite of that, that; etc.


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## rusita preciosa

A small addition for Russian:

There are more words that could be used in the sense of “although”:
*правда* /pravda/ - truth
*только* /tol’ko/ - just, only

B Сахаре дожди бывают, только редко – it rains in Sahara, only/just rarely
B Сахаре дожди бывают, правда редко - it rains in Sahara, [the] truth [is], rarely


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## ThomasK

правда reminds me of English 'it is true', 'al be it', Dutch adverb 'weliswaar' _(it does be true_, would be a literal translation, be it with a huge mistake). The Cz *protože, *for the fact that, is the one that I cannot link with a conjunction I know for the time being.

 I have started realizing that there are lots of lexical words, that also express concession: like (modal) _may_, as in _He may be ill, but he was there_... We might yet focus on conjunctions (prep.) mainly, though the others remain welcome as an aside...


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## Outsider

In Portuguese, the most common concessive conjunction is probably *embora*. Apart from "although/even though", this word also means "*away*" as in "to go away". I don't know which of the two senses is older. Historically, though, _embora_ < _em boa hora_, "*in good time*" or "*about time*".

Some synonymous phrases: _mesmo que/se_ (*even if*), _ainda que _(lit. "*still that*", *cf. Spanish aunque*), _se bem que _("*if well that*").

There's also a separate phrase for "*despite/in spite of*", _apesar de_, literally something like "*in the weight of*", as well as the rather old-fashioned and literary _não obstante _(*notwithstanding*).


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## ThomasK

I suppose the 'away' will be the oldest, as concessive conjunctions seem to have developed from lexical words if we can believe the grammaticalisation theory, as I do. 

I suppose weight refers to reality here (non-reality is light like a feather or has no substance), though that is an - I think- 'educated guess' based on some other conjunctions in other languages, referring to truth...


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## Ёж!

ThomasK said:


> I suppose the 'away' will be the oldest, as concessive conjunctions seem to have developed from lexical words if we can believe the grammaticalisation theory, as I do.


Here, Outsider shew which lexical words the junction had stemmed from. Literally, they do not mean 'away'. In fact, the word seems to me close to the Russian «хотя»: both express some kind of turning to the good in the sentence.


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## Outsider

Ёж! said:


> No. Morphologically, this is exactly the verbal adverb of the verb «хотеть» (to want, to wish, etc), but nobody ever uses this word as a verbal adverb nowadays, which is why the verb «хотеть» does not have one now.
> 
> If you analyse the phrase as "I didn't buy it, _though_ _I'd like to say_ it was not expensive", you won't be completely off the mark semantically, but I don't know how exactly this situation historically came to be. One can also shorten «хотя» to «хоть» (one vowel less), which is never possible for orthodox verbal adverbs.


That reminds me somewhat of the English word "*granted*", from "grant" (allow, admit):

"_Granted that _it was not expensive, but I did not buy it."

Another curious English word with concessive meaning is *albeit *< _al(though) be it (that)._


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## bibax

ThomasK said:


> ...  _*même si *_[even if, which is universal, I suppose, can literally be translated into other languages]_, ..._


In Czech: *dokonce jestliže* (even if), not too good stylistically.

IMHO a universal phrase (but it is not a conjuction) is *"in defiance of the fact that"*. In Czech: *"na vzdory faktu, že"* (vzdor = defiance); the quasi-conjunction *přestože* (= přes to, že) has the same meaning but is shorter and has only one stress.

*In defiance of the fact that* the movie is silent, the actors seem to jabber constantly.

*Navzdory faktu, že* film je němý, herci neustále brebentí.


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## Ёж!

bibax said:


> IMHO a universal phrase (but it is not a conjuction) is *"in defiance of the fact that"*. In Czech: *"na vzdory faktu, že"* (vzdor = defiance); the quasi-conjunction *přestože* (= přes to, že) has the same meaning but is shorter and has only one stress.


If you mean it is universal among languages, then it is not. As an example, Russian does not defy facts in such cases.


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## ThomasK

Well, I also think that the idea of contrast [defiance] would be the main idea, or no, concept, but it seems to be conveyed more subtly (...) than that. I'd think 'all ... but', or 'really ... but', might be more general, but *Ёж!* can judge whether that might be true - by which I mean that it seems to me that *concession implies a double concept*... 

(I do wonder whether that is present in _granted that_, except if we see granted as a reference to reality...)


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## Ёж!

I am no authority here.  I don't know just like you. As for Russian, it has both of them («всё-таки» and «правда»), this is all I know.  But now I wonder if the sense of bibax' statement was more general than I thought...


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## Dymn

Catalan:

_tot i que _"all and that"
_encara que _"still that" (cf. Spanish _aunque_)
_malgrat que _(_mal- _"bad" + _grat _"will, liking" (cf. _agradar _"to like"), (cf. French _malgré_))
_si bé_ "if well"

Spanish:

_aunque _(_aún_ "still" + _que _"that")
_si bien _"if well"


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## 123xyz

Macedonian:

*иако* (iako) - from "и", meaning "and, even", and "ако", meaning "if" (but not "whether"). 

The evolution here is from "even if" to "although", which are closely related in many languages. Meanwhile, "even if" is expressed by "(дури) и да" ((duri) i da), where the "even" meaning of "и" is reinforced by "дури", which means "even" only. "да" is a synonym of "ако", but since it hasn't evolved to in conjunction with "и" to mean "although", the "дури" isn't necessary. If, however, you want to use "ако" in saying "even if", you would need the "дури", i.e. you would need the full "дури и ако" (note that the second two words aren't spelled together, unlike when they mean "although", in which case they've developed beyond their individual meanings). 

*макар што* (makar što) - the first element is from Greek "μακάρι" and is cognate to Italian "magari" and Romanian "măcar". It means "even", just like "дури", but it has a more restricted usage. It is semantically similar to Romanian "măcar", but not the Greek "μακάρι", which means "if only", and the Italian "magari", which means "maybe" - interesting semantic evolution here, but a different topic. The second element, in turn, in its function as a complementiser, means "which, that". So, here we have something like "even that".

There aren't any concessive words or phrases in Macedonian relating to "nice things", as far as I know. The most metaphorical one is probably "додуша" (doduša), meaning "then again" (introducing a contrary argument), literally "to-soul".


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## ThomasK

To us the link with "even if" is not so self-evident when looking at our words. We can only combine it with one of the words I mentioned, the most "dissident" one having a very particular syntax, i.e., "al". 

Is the syntax of a CC different from the one in subclause, or in any way special, BTW?


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