# Norwegian: sju eller syv?



## Xander2024

Hei everyone,

 Could a native speaker please tell me if the numeral "syv" is still used? The fact is I heard a Norwegian girl saying numbers og etter "seks" sier hun: "sju" or "syv" - you can choose". 
But one of my dictionaries marks "syv" as obsolete. Is it? Or is it used in dialects nowadays?

Takk.


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## TomTrussel

It's dying out I think, together with the Danish-inspired way of pronouncing 2-digit numbers with the last digit first. (27 pronounced syv-og-tyve) You will still hear it among older people, especially located near west end of Oslo, or other places where the Danish influence has been strong. The correct way, thought at school now, is "sju" and with the first digit of 2-digit numbers pronounced first (27 = tjue-sju)

TT


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## Xander2024

Takk skal du ha, Tom.


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## NorwegianNYC

Ironically, the modern forms _tjue_ and _sju_ are not historically correct in Norwegian. They are dialect forms that only became staple words in Standard Norwegian after WWII. The original counting system in Norway, was the "backwards"-counting, such as German and Danish has until this day. English also counted "backwards" (meaning the ones followed by the tens, e.g. 43 was three-and-forty) until 1600s.

The big change occurred in Norway in 1951, when the Parliament decided that the counting system should from now on be tens followed by ones. This system was already in place in English, Swedish and various Norwegian dialects. However, the predominant counting method was still counting ones followed by tens. The reason for this was not as much linguistic as to make it easier for the switchboard operators in the national telephone company. If you read the phone number 653983 in pairs (as Norwegian still tend to do) 65-39-83, it was easier for the switchboard operator and more time efficient to read it "seksti-fem, tretti-ni, åtti-tre". If you hear "fem-og-seksti, ni-og-tredve, tre-og-åtti" the chance of confusing the number is much greater.

_Tyve_ og _syv_ was gradually replaced as a result of this. It is easier in Norwegian phonology to say (23) _tjuetre_ than to say _tyvetre,_ and (57) _femtisju_ is easier than _femtisyv._ Other numbers were replaced as well: _tredve_ (30) became _tretti_, and _førr_ (40) became _førti_ when they were moved up and put in front of the ones.


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## Xander2024

Yes, Norwegian, I know about the German numerals. As for reading phone numbers, we read them in pairs too.

Thanks for the information.


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## Tech12

I disagree completely that "syv" is dying out. For one, I'm 27 years old, only use "syv", and I don't think I'm dying anytime soon. 

Of course, this is hardly objective, so I did a search for "syv" and "sju" on VG.no, Dagbladet.no and Aftenposten.no (the largest Norwegian newspapers) using google. "Syv" showed up in numerous recent articles in all three of them. In fact, on VG.no and Aftenposten.no "syv" was by far more common than "sju". In Dagbladet, "sju" was much more common than "syv" (to be expected since its language is more "radical")

I also don't see how "femtisju" is easier to say than "femtisyv", although I agree that "tyvetre" is ridiculous.


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## Xander2024

Mange takk for innsatsen, Tech.


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## NorwegianNYC

Hi Tech12

No, I am NOT suggesting it is dying out, but _sju/tjue_ has gone from being mere dialect forms to the dominant forms in Norway in 50 years. Which is is pretty astonishing given that is was a political resolution that gave rise to those words. _Sju/tjue/tretti/førti_ has for two generations now been the textbook norm, and it is the only sanctioned form used in spoken media! It might not be moribund as of right now, but the number of _syv/tyve/tredve_-speakers are declining as we speak!

So, how did Norwegian get from _syv_ to _sju_? Because of the proximity in sound value. The only thing you have to do is pronounce _syv_ with the -s- as an sh-sound. What you get is *sjuv, and from there on (since Norwegian tends to chip off -v- in the end of words (halv, tolv)), you have _sju_. A similar process took place with _tyve > tjue_ and _tredve > tretti_​.


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## Xander2024

By the way, do bokmål and nynorsk have anything to do with the use of "sju" and "syv"? Because I see the words "radical" and 
"political resolution" get mentioned.


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## TomTrussel

I'm going to leave that to NorwegianNYC, all I know is that "syv" is not even listed in my Nynorsk dictionary, which tells me they have always used "sju". I failed Nynorsk at teachers college a long time ago though, so I have no credibility whatsoever when it comes to that subject  

TT


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## Xander2024

Ok Tom, but you've been a big help anyway.


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## mosletha

Nynorsk bruker bare «sju» fordi det ligg nærast norrøne «sjau», medan «syv» ligg nærast dansk. Vi har mange liknande tilfelle der nynorsk tillèt éi form medan bokmål tillèt to; «tjue» vs «tyve», «sjuk» vs «syk», «veik» vs «vek», «tjukk» vs «tykk» osb. Bruken av formene varierer *veldig* mykje, og dette rotet gjer at ein ofte kjem over snodig språkbruk som «sjuogtyve», eller omvendt «syvogtjue». 

Nynorsk uses only "sju" because it's close to the norse "sjau", while "syv" is close to Danish. We have many similar cases where nynorsk accepts one form while bokmål accepts two; "tjue" vs "tyve", "sjuk" vs "syk", "veik" vs "vek", "tjukk" vs "tykk" and so on. The usage of these forms varies *greatly*, and because of this mess you can occasionally come across certain oddities like «sjuogtyve», or «syvogtjue» in reverse.


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## NorwegianNYC

Mosletha: Agreed, but one has to take into consideration that "sjau" in Old Norse was not pronounced like "sju" in modern Norwegian. Nor was "sjuk" pronounced the way it is today. The sj-kombination was similar to English "see", so "sjau" would have been "see-a-oo". That combined with the fact that many dialects (in Norway as well) of Old Norse reduced -ju- to -y-, it is not surprising that Norwegian (as well as Danish) got forms like "syv" and "syk". This is not a "Danish" form - that is a part of the 19th Century hype for a 'pure' language in Norway (as if such a thing ever existed!). Eastern Norwegian dialects came up with "syk" on their own. The 'Danish' factor reinforced this, but did not necessarily create it.


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## Xander2024

Thank you all for a most interesting discussion.


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## sendintheclowns

Tjue-sju is almost impossible to say for people learning Norwegian as a foreign language. I'm a native Norwegian speaker and I have problems with it! I do say tjue-fem, I might say tjue-syv, but most often end up saying syv-og-tyve!  (For the record, I'm 47)


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## Xander2024

Hmm, "tjue" is not a problem for those familiar with the German "ch" in "ich". And the Norwegian "sj" is much like the Russian counterpart. By the way, the Swedish "sj" is much more difficult.


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## Tjahzi

[ɕʉ'ɧʉː] is a known tongue-twister that many Swedish children find troublesome.


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## NorwegianNYC

In all fairness - 27 in Norwegian is usually pronounced "tjøhsju"


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## Tjahzi

What would that be in IPA?


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## Magb

I say [çʉˈʃʉː]. The short and long vowel are slightly different though, but I'm not sure how to describe the difference.


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## Tjahzi

Magb said:


> ......but I'm not sure how to describe the difference.


Length? Or quality as well?


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## Magb

Tjahzi said:


> Length? Or quality as well?


Quality as well. I think the short vowel tends to be a bit further back. My long /ʉ:/ is often so far front that it's basically a front vowel, while short /ʉ/ is more of a central vowel.


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## Tjahzi

That makes a lot of sense. According to Swedish scholars, short /u/ is considered to be the close-mid central rounded vowel [ɵ] (I agree with that analysis).


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