# との



## black.x.white

This is part of an anime song lyric (I Hear You Everywhere, 田中理恵) that I've come across:

あのヒトとの街がすき
あのヒトとの雨がすき
あのヒトとの音がすき

I was wondering about the formation of Noun + との + noun. I don't think I've seen it before. What -exactly- does it mean? Does it mean something along the lines of: I like the town/rain/sound _that comes with_ "that person"? Or is the nuance something slightly different? Also, is this structure used commonly, or mostly poetically as in this circumstance?

=)


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## Flaminius

> Also, is this structure [Noun + との + noun] used commonly, or mostly poetically as in this circumstance?


Yes, it is a very common structure.  The song lyric, however, applies a common construction in an idiosyncratic way.  I will first explain how the construction is usually used.

Japanese postpositional clauses never directly modify a noun clause.  Thus, it is ungrammatical to say for "an encounter with him":
*彼と出会い
Note that the same postpositional clause can modify a verb clause (彼女は彼と出会う; She meets with him) without any problem.

In order for a postpositional clause to modify a noun, it (the clause, not the noun) should assume _-no_.  Thus 彼との出会い is the grammatical form for "an encounter with him."  The form without _-no_ can be "him and an encounter" but in this awkward interpretation _-to_ is "and."  Most of the postpositions do not have a second sense like this that rescues the phrase from being ungrammatical.

Now, “I like the town/rain/sound _that comes with_ 'that person'” may be a good explanation of what the Japanese original text is intended for, but the sentences are hardly recognised by the standard grammar.  The same amount of poetic licence is used for  あのヒトとの街 and "the town with him."


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## Aoyama

I thought, at first, that this could be understood as :
I like the town/rain/sound [when being] _together with_ "that person" , or
あのヒトと*一緒にいた*街がすき.
How about it ?​


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## lammn

While Flaminius has provided a very detailed explanation on the grammatical side, I absolutely agree with Aoyama's explanation on the meaning of the lyrics: 



Aoyama said:


> I like the town/rain/sound [when being] _*together* with_ "that person" , or あのヒトと*一緒にいた*街がすき.


 
That is, the singer is expressing her fondness of the town/rain/sound where *the singer* and *that person* are/were together.


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## black.x.white

I see x)

Thank you for Flaminius' explanation and Aoyama and lammn's insights as well. They were very helpful.


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## Seikun

Could somebody help me with this? There is a song that has this とのthing and even though I read Flaminius gave an explanation I don't know how to translate it in this particular case.

Here are the lyrics:

想い寄せれば 桜ひらひらこ
ぼれ落ちる僕たちの涙
いついつまでも 交わした笑顔
君*との*約束 すべての時よ 輝き続けて

Thanks.


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## lammn

君*との*約束 means "the promise between you and me".
君*との*約束 is, in effect, （わたしと）君*との*約束, where the わたし part is often omitted in Japanese.


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## Aoyama

Could also be translated as : the promise, the meeting, the rendez-vous, the agreement I made/concluded/settled with you...


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## Ilmen

Well, I have myself seen sentences containing this との.

Here are two examples:
•「雷（かみなり）とは帯電した雲の中、または雲と雲の間、または雲と地面*との*間に起きる光と音を伴う大規模な放電現象のことである。」
•「目撃例の多くは、赤から黄色の暖色系の光を放つものが多いとされているが、白色や青色、色の変化するものなどもある*との*こと。」

Both are from the Japanese Wikipedia.
The seconde one is more difficult, because the との follows directly a verb (ある), and not a noun.
Any idea for these two ones?

Thank you in advance.


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## Seikun

lammn said:


> 君*との*約束 means "the promise between you and me".
> 君*との*約束 is, in effect, （わたしと）君*との*約束, where the わたし part is often omitted in Japanese.


Thanks lammn!


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## xiaolijie

Ilmen said:


> Well, I have myself seen sentences containing this との.
> 
> Here are two examples:
> •「雷（かみなり）とは帯電した雲の中、または雲と雲の間、または雲と地面*との*間に起きる光と音を伴う大規模な放電現象のことである。」
> •「目撃例の多くは、赤から黄色の暖色系の光を放つものが多いとされているが、白色や青色、色の変化するものなどもある*との*こと。」
> 
> Both are from the Japanese Wikipedia.
> The seconde one is more difficult, because the との follows directly a verb (ある), and not a noun.
> Any idea for these two ones?
> 
> Thank you in advance.


Hi Ilmen, I think the two cases of *との* that you quoted are not of the same kind.

-The *との *in the first sentence: 
雲と雲の間 (= 雲と雲*との*間)
雲と地面*との*間 (= 雲と地面*の*間)
You can translate this as "between A and B"


-The *との *in the second sentence is just a short way of saying *という*こと, *とされる*こと, etc., so the と here is the "quotation と".


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