# Dominus aut erus?



## Tulliola

I was taught in half-forgotten schooldays that the Latin for "master" "mistress" was _dominus/domina.  _However, on another site, someone insisted that the everyday term would be _erus/era, _and was originally very colloquial Greek, roughly translated as "boss, guv". 

Can anyone confirm? My small Latin dictionary makes no distinction between the two words.


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## fdb

The etymology of erus is contested, but it is certainly not borrowed from Greek. The currently favoured hypothesis is to see it as an Indo-European cognate of Hittite išhā- “master, lord”.


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## Tulliola

fdb said:


> The etymology of erus is contested, but it is certainly not borrowed from Greek. The currently favoured hypothesis is to see it as an Indo-European cognate of Hittite išhā- “master, lord”.



Thanks - so not "guv"?


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## Scholiast

salvete!


Tulliola said:


> Thanks - so not "guv"?


Without for a moment contesting fdb's philological expertise, which is amazing, almost all the passages cited by L&S s.v. are from Plautus or Horace and Catullus in colloquial or conversational contexts in which "guv['nor]" would not be far wrong (such as slaves talking to, or of, their masters, or references to people like tavern-landlords).
Σ


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## Tulliola

Scholiast said:


> salvete!
> 
> Without for a moment contesting fdb's philological expertise, which is amazing, almost all the passages cited by L&S s.v. are from Plautus or Horace and Catullus in colloquial or conversational contexts in which "guv['nor]" would not be far wrong (such as slaves talking to, or of, their masters, or references to people like tavern-landlords).
> Σ



Thank you for that. I do know some Plautus, and have the impression this was the ancient equivalent to a modern "sit-com", so would the language not reflect that? I am intrigued since:

1. My dictionary gives "Era" as Lady - pertaining to a goddess. Would you refer to Juno as "Boss(es) Juno?

2." Dominus"  in all its forms, not "erus", has come down to us via Christianity - "Domine, non sum dignus.", so presumably it was in  common use


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## Scholiast

salvete redintegrando!


Tulliola said:


> Thank you for that. I do know some Plautus, and have the impression this was the ancient equivalent to a modern "sit-com", so would the language not reflect that? I am intrigued since:
> 
> 1. My dictionary gives "Era" as Lady - pertaining to a goddess. Would you refer to Juno as "Boss(es) Juno?
> 
> 2." Dominus" in all its forms, not "erus", has come down to us via Christianity - "Domine, non sum dignus.", so presumably it was in common use


Right on both counts. I cannot cite specific examples from memory, but mildly irreverent reference to Juno as "She who must be obeyed" would fit both with the mythology and (plebeian) Roman habits of thinking.
_Dominus_ remained - remains - in use in e.g. Spanish (_Don Alfonso_, _Don Carlos _&c.), and (feminine at least) in Italian, _una donna_, "a lady". And until quite recently, a Scots schoolmaster was a "Domine". There may well be other traditions.
Σ


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## Tulliola

Scholiast said:


> salvete redintegrando!
> 
> 
> _Dominus_ remained - remains - in use in e.g. Spanish (_Don Alfonso_, _Don Carlos _&c.), and (feminine at least) in Italian, _una donna_, "a lady". And until quite recently, a Scots schoolmaster was a "Domine". There may well be other traditions.
> Σ



Yes, I thought of _Domine_, which is interesting as the Latin would be _magister. _ I think some male monastics are still called _Dom_, and of course _Oxford (et al) don _is probably related_. _


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## wtrmute

Scholiast said:


> salvete redintegrando!
> 
> Right on both counts. I cannot cite specific examples from memory, but mildly irreverent reference to Juno as "She who must be obeyed" would fit both with the mythology and (plebeian) Roman habits of thinking.
> _Dominus_ remained - remains - in use in e.g. Spanish (_Don Alfonso_, _Don Carlos _&c.), and (feminine at least) in Italian, _una donna_, "a lady". And until quite recently, a Scots schoolmaster was a "Domine". There may well be other traditions.
> Σ



The Spanish _Don_ (Portuguese _Dom_, probably monastic English as well) is sort of a relic use.  The general word for lord in those languages comes from Latin _senior_.  In Portuguese, in fact, it's restricted to referring to members of the Royal/Imperial families and to bishops.

Although, now that I think about it, Spanish _dueño_ "owner" comes from Latin _dominus_, so that one is the "true" descendant, I guess.


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## Tulliola

wtI suppose there are smute said:


> The Spanish _Don_ (Portuguese _Dom_, probably monastic English as well) is sort of a relic use.  The general word for lord in those languages comes from Latin _senior_.  In Portuguese, in fact, it's restricted to referring to members of the Royal/Imperial families and to bishops.
> 
> Although, now that I think about it, Spanish _dueño_ "owner" comes from Latin _dominus_, so that one is the "true" descendant, I guess.



Yes, and I suppose there are cognates in English - _domestic, dominate_ etc. I visited an Anglican convent once, and the nuns' cells were marked "Domina Julia" etc, though probably a late 19th century revival. Strange that, if _erus_ was in such common use, it has not survived in any modern Latin-influenced language, to my knowledge.


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## Scholiast

salvete


wtrmute said:


> The Spanish _Don_ (Portuguese _Dom_, probably monastic English as well) is sort of a relic use. The general word for lord in those languages comes from Latin _senior_.


In this sense, _Señor_ and _Senhor_ are also of "relic use". As is "Monsieur" (from the same etymology).
Σ


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## Tulliola

Scholiast said:


> salvete
> 
> In this sense, _Señor_ and _Senhor_ are also of "relic use". As is "Monsieur" (from the same etymology).
> Σ



Yes, although _Madame_ is obviously from _domina -  _"my lady".


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## wtrmute

Scholiast said:


> salvete
> 
> In this sense, _Señor_ and _Senhor_ are also of "relic use". As is "Monsieur" (from the same etymology).
> Σ



I was unfortunate in my choice of words.  I meant to say that, of nearly all the senses where a Latinist would write _dominus_ in regular prose, the corresponding translation in Spanish would use _señor_, not _dueño_ or any other form derived from _dominus_.  In fact, even as a courtesy title, if one refers to a person by surname, one has to use (for instance) _Señor Valdez_, instead of _*Don Valdez_.  The use of _Don_ as a courtesy title is a fossilised use of _dominus_ where it would have been otherwise replaced by _senior_.


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## Scholiast

salvete sodales!


wtrmute said:


> The use of _Don_ as a courtesy title is a fossilised use of _dominus_ where it would have been otherwise replaced by _senior_


All language is "fossilised" - it's the medium through which Homer and Cicero and Augustine and Dante and Chaucer and  Shakespeare and Milton and Goethe can speak to us today. And I would rather have "Don" Giovanni, in Mozart, and "Don" Carlos" in Verdi, and indeed "Don" Quixote in Cervantes or Richard Strauss...
But maybe this was for the "Culture Café" Forum...
Σ


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## Tulliola

wtrmute said:


> I was unfortunate in my choice of words.  I meant to say that, of nearly all the senses where a Latinist would write _dominus_ in regular prose, the corresponding translation in Spanish would use _señor_, not _dueño_ or any other form derived from _dominus_.  In fact, even as a courtesy title, if one refers to a person by surname, one has to use (for instance) _Señor Valdez_, instead of _*Don Valdez_.  The use of _Don_ as a courtesy title is a fossilised use of _dominus_ where it would have been otherwise replaced by _senior_.



Strange, that forms of *dominus* were retained via Christianity to refer to God/Jesus, but "erus" fell completely out of use, at least in English, although I have seen a medieval drinking sgon using *herus/hera*. And the various forms of *signore* derive from the Latin for "old" - was not the Senate addressed as *Patres etc seniores* "fathers and elders"?


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