# béant et bête



## Ciara

Would anyone have an idea of how the following expression could be translated into English?:

"La porte de l'avion est grande ouvert. C'est *béant et bête*."

I understand "béant" to be _gaping_ or _wide-open_ but can't figure out how "bête" would be translated in this context. Any ideas?!! 

Merci!!


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## Eddie

Hi, Ciara!

If you've spelled _béant_ (masculine form) correctly, it doesn't agree with _porte_ (feminine form), or it would be spelled _béante_. So what is it describing?


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## fetchezlavache

béant doesn't have to agree with porte, it agrees with *c'*, which is neutral.


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## Agnès E.

Ah, Ciara, je crains que cela ne fasse que commencer.... 
Ici, Picouly fait une allitération en "b" : il utilise le mot béant (qui peut s'appliquer à la porte, en effet) et trouve que cette porte ouverte donne un air stupide à l'avion.
Cette porte de l'avion ouverte, c'est béant et bête...
A vous de trouver une autre allitération en anglais (avez-vous un bon dictionnaire de synonymes ?  )


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## Agnès E.

Peut-on dire quelque chose avec "fool" et "full-opened" : fool and fully opened ? Would it work ?


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## Eddie

Okay. I have a question for my two favorite ladies: Fetchez and Agnès. I ask the question to improve my understanding of French grammar and usage, and not to fight with anyone.


Would this be correct?
-La porte de cette salle, c'est assez étroit.


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## fetchezlavache

sadly it doesn't work that way. because the subject of 'est' has to be 'la porte', which means your sentence should be 'la porte de cette salle est assez étroite'.

but you can say 'la saucisse, c'est bon'.

i can't believe how many french inconsistancies i've discovered since browsing these boards.

eddie, i am totally unable to understand why it works with saucisse, and not with porte.


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## Agnès E.

No, I'm afraid not, Eddie...

You could say (if you are would be Frenchman who would not speak a very good French) : c'est assez étroit, cette porte (forget cette salle, too many cette)... but it is just spoken French. Every French will understand you, but as you are not a native French, just forget it !!

I advise you to say : ELLE est assez étroite, cette porte. That's good, that's fine, that's perfect !! 

(c'est is indefinite = cela est. As long as you add a precision, it is not any more indefinite and it becomes a mistake.)


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## Agnès E.

fetchezlavache said:
			
		

> sadly it doesn't work that way. because the subject of 'est' has to be 'la porte', which means your sentence should be 'la porte de cette salle est assez étroite'.
> 
> but you can say 'la saucisse, c'est bon'.
> 
> i can't believe how many french inconsistancies i've discovered since browsing these boards.
> 
> eddie, i am totally unable to understand why it works with saucisse, and not with porte.



It works, I guess, because "la saucisse" is a general word encompasses ALL THE SAUCISSES, not just this one, here, on the table, in your plate...
But I'm not sure about it either...


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## Eddie

Bon, je suis tout à fait perplexe maintenant!


You and Fetchez agreed that _béant_ agreed with neutral _ce_ and not with _porte_.

Why doesn't _étroit_ agree with _ce_ in my sentence?


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## Agnès E.

This is exactly the reason why your sentence cannot be right, Eddie ! 

Nevertheless, as we are totally off topic, I suggest you to post a new thread with your sentence, copy/paste your last post here and see what's going on...


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## massie1

Agnes E. said:
			
		

> It works, I guess, because "la saucisse" is a general word encompasses ALL THE SAUCISSES, not just this one, here, on the table, in your plate...
> But I'm not sure about it either...


 En effet !  The difference comes from whether the reference is to a specific object (or idea...) or a generic descriptor.

C'est bien joli tout de même, la langue française...


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## Jabote

Quite honestly fetchez and Agnes, I think that what is wrong with Eddie's sentence is only the order. It would have been ok (in spoken French we agree on this) to say "C'est assez étroit, la porte de cette salle" (and Eddie étroit in this case does agree with ce, not with la porte), just as well as "c'est bon, cette tarte aux pommes".

IMHO.

And even if I am not part of your favorite ladies Eddie... lol  just kidding of course ;o)))


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## Eddie

Thank you, Jabote. Much obliged. Not being among my favorite ladies, you are my main man (expression ricaine).


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## Jabote

Eddie said:
			
		

> Thank you, Jabote. Much obliged. Not being my favorite lady, you are my main man (expression ricaine).


 
Jabote is beaming.... !


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## Jabote

massie1 said:
			
		

> En effet ! The difference comes from whether the reference is to a specific object (or idea...) or a generic descriptor.
> 
> C'est bien joli tout de même, la langue française...


 
Sorry to disagree, fetchez, agnes and massie now ! Eddie's sentence is very specific, on the contrary: la porte de *cette* salle, not just _*any*_ door, the door to this room... It would not be possible to say it any other way "specifically" speaking, you sure would not have said "cette porte de cette salle", nor "cette porte de la salle".

;o)))


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## Agnès E.

Ben justement, Jabote, c'est pour ça qu'on dit que "c'est" ne va pas...  et qu'il faut enlever un cette quelque part !


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## la grive solitaire

How about: The door of the airplane is flung/wide open. Open-mouthed, moronic. OR   Flung open, foolish.

("La porte de l'avion est grande ouvert. C'est béant et bête.)


These are some of the combinations I played with; maybe someone can up with something better!  

ajar and asinine
vacant and vile
exposed and egregious
revealing and revolting
gaping and goofy
wide and wacky
yawning and yucky
distended and daft/dumb
clear and crazy
free and foolish
immense and idiotic/imbecilic


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## Jabote

Agnes E. said:
			
		

> Ben justement, Jabote, c'est pour ça qu'on dit que "c'est" ne va pas...  et qu'il faut enlever un cette quelque part !


 
Je ne crois pas que nous nous comprenions agnes. Vous avez dit (quand je dis vous, c'est fetchez, toi et Marcel) que la phrase d'Eddie était bancale et qu'on ne pouvait pas dire "c'est" étroit parce que c'était suivi d'un mot spécifique et non pas générique comme l'est supposément la saucisse dans c'est bon cette saucisse.... Désolée mais la saucisse dont vous parlez c'est bel et bien celle que vous goûtez en en parlant, pas la saucisse en général ! Je ne vois franchement pas la différence de spécificité entre "la porte de cette salle" et "cette saucisse".

Enfin bon... Moi ce que j'en dis...


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## Agnès E.

Waow ! bravo, La Grive, quel talent !


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## Jabote

la grive solitaire said:
			
		

> How about: The door of the airplane is flung/wide open. Open-mouthed, moronic. OR Flung open, foolish.
> 
> ("La porte de l'avion est grande ouvert. C'est béant et bête.)
> 
> 
> These are some of the combinations I played with; maybe someone can up with something better!
> 
> ajar and asinine
> vacant and vile
> exposed and egregious
> revealing and revolting
> gaping and goofy
> wide and wacky
> yawning and yucky
> distended and daft/dumb
> clear and crazy
> free and foolish
> immense and idiotic/imbecilic


 
Superb la grive, as usual !!! Sometimes you amaze me ! Thumbs up !

I especially like gaping and goofy.


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## Jabote

Jabote said:
			
		

> Je ne crois pas que nous nous comprenions agnes. Vous avez dit (quand je dis vous, c'est fetchez, toi et Marcel) que la phrase d'Eddie était bancale et qu'on ne pouvait pas dire "c'est" étroit parce que c'était suivi d'un mot spécifique et non pas générique comme l'est supposément la saucisse dans c'est bon cette saucisse.... Désolée mais la saucisse dont vous parlez c'est bel et bien celle que vous goûtez en en parlant, pas la saucisse en général ! Je ne vois franchement pas la différence de spécificité entre "la porte de cette salle" et "cette saucisse".
> 
> Enfin bon... Moi ce que j'en dis...


 
Geez I'm thick today (yeah, I know, some will say "not just today" ;o)))) ... Just re-read fetchez's example of saucisse and she did write "la" not "cette"....

Going back to bed...


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## rayb

fetchezlavache said:
			
		

> béant doesn't have to agree with porte, it agrees with *c'*, which is neutral.


 
Mais la porte avec ouvert*e* si, j'imagine.


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## timpeac

Ce is neutral and always takes the masculine form of the adjective.

You use it when you wish to talk about the general effect something makes rather than the actual thing itself.

For example

La neige est belle. Snow is beautiful

Ah la neige! C'est beau! How beautiful the snow looks.

It can be quite subtle sometimes.

a) La robe est belle
b) La robe, c'est beau

In a) it is a beautiful dress. b) it looks beautiful _on you_ (or something like that)

I think the order of the words is a bit of a red herring and confusing things.

Eddie's example of "La porte de cette salle, c'est assez étroit" doesn't work, in my opinion, because the "ce" has no meaning. We simply want to comment on the size of the door, and so would say "La porte de cette salle est assez étroite". So to answer your earlier question, Eddie, étroit should agree with ce in your sentence, but people wouldn't have written it with a ce in the first place.

On the other hand "La saucisse c'est bon" is correct because you are saying "the taste of sausage is good". It wouldn't make sense to say that this is a good sausage, because sausages are inanimate. So you wouldn't form that sentence without a "ce".

So why do you say "C'est assez étroit, la porte de cette salle". Well here we are using the grammar to stress the narrowness by putting the adjective first. If the noun we are talking about hasn't yet been mentioned you must use the "default" masculine form. Or to put it another way if you use "ce" you must use the masculine form. The question really becomes, therefore, should we be using "ce" or not.

Finally, to give a point of reference to English speakers where we do something similar -

We use a singular verb in the following although the subject is plural -

"10 euros is expensive for a bottle of wine". Why? because it is the concept of what "10 euros" will buy rather than the actual notes themselves which is expensive. It is this difference that the "ce" in French expresses. And so it is "10 euros, c'est cher!" and not "10 euros sont chers". Having written this explanation I notice that in French we usually add a comma for the "ce" difference too.

I hope this helps!


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## Eddie

My question was, if it's correct to say _La porte de l'avion c'est béant_, why can't one say _La porte de l'avion c'est étroit_?

Is _béant_ describing the door or the situation?


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## fetchezlavache

*eddie* there is no need to use such big font really eddie, thanks so much for making that effort. imagine what the pages would look like if all of us used such big letters.

anyway. you are not correct. nobody said it's correct to say 'la porte de l'avion c'est béant'. picouly's text is different. re-read the first post please.


*tim* nobody would say 'la robe c'est beau'.


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## timpeac

fetchezlavache said:
			
		

> *eddie* there is no need to use such big font really eddie, thanks so much for making that effort. imagine what the pages would look like if all of us used such big letters.
> 
> anyway. you are not correct. nobody said it's correct to say 'la porte de l'avion c'est béant'. picouly's text is different. re-read the first post please.
> 
> 
> *tim* nobody would say 'la robe c'est beau'.


 
Fechez - I've heard someone (French) say that. It was in the context of someone trying on the dress and coming out of the changing room.


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## fetchezlavache

hmmmmmmmm. doesn't sound well to my ears. 'la robe ça fait beau' yes. but not 'la robe c'est beau'. oh i don't know now, i'm all confused !!! it's such an unpleasant feeling when you can't even explain your own language to furriners !!!!!!!!


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## timpeac

Eddie said:
			
		

> My question was, if it's correct to say _La porte de l'avion c'est béant_, why can't one say _La porte de l'avion c'est étroit_?
> 
> Is _béant_ describing the door or the situation?


 
Maybe they are viewing it as being more the impression it makes on the speaker. Just a thought, I don't know for sure - this "to ce or not to ce" can get really quite subtle. I suppose I am not sure why you could say _La porte de l'avion c'est béant _ but I can see more why you wouldn't say _La porte de l'avion c'est étroit_ It's just narrow or not. It's a good question!


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## timpeac

fetchezlavache said:
			
		

> hmmmmmmmm. doesn't sound well to my ears. 'la robe ça fait beau' yes. but not 'la robe c'est beau'. oh i don't know now, i'm all confused !!! it's such an unpleasant feeling when you can't even explain your own language to furriners !!!!!!!!


 
Yes, in the aim of keeping things simple I would have picked a non-controversial example, I only said that because I'd heard it. There was a pause between the words "la robe....C'est beau!" does that help?


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## Jabote

And "la robe, c'est mieux que le pantalon" or "mets la robe, c'est mieux que le pantalon" would work perfectly well...


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## fetchezlavache

yes it helps, because it's two sentences if there is a pause. 

la robe.... c'est beau !

see how good i am at splitting hair ? 

(now i need two advils please, and a shot of zubrowka). <thud>


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## timpeac

fetchezlavache said:
			
		

> yes it helps, because it's two sentences if there is a pause.
> 
> la robe.... c'est beau !
> 
> see how good i am at splitting hair ?
> 
> (now i need two advils please, and a shot of zubrowka). <thud>


 
It was only a bit of a pause and the beauness was definitely directed at the dress... I wish I could differentiate as easily as you between a comma and a full stop in speech 

What's an advil?


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## Jabote

A kind of aspirin


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## Eddie

Okay. This is my last go at this. Fetchez, this font size is especially for you. Now you'll only need 1 aspirin.

Let's back to the original question: La porte de l'avion est grande ouverte. C'est *béant et bête*. MY QUESTION IS: are _béant_ and _bête_ referring to the door of the airplane or the situation involving the open door? I have a feeling that both are referring to the situation. If that's the case, how exactly do you translate _béant_?


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## Jabote

Eddie said:
			
		

> Okay. This is my last go at this. Fetchez, this font size is especially for you. Now you'll only need 1 aspirin.
> 
> Let's back to the original question: La porte de l'avion est grande ouverte. C'est *béant et bête*. MY QUESTION IS: are _béant_ and _bête_ referring to the door of the airplane or the situation involving the open door? I have a feeling that both are referring to the situation. If that's the case, how exactly do you translate _béant_?


 
And you are definitely right, Eddie, it does refer to the situation. And to answer your question, my favorite is la grive's "gaping and goofy". In other words: "the aircraft door is wide open. Gaping and goofy" I would not even bother to translate "c'est"...


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## Agnès E.

Eddie, does it help you if I just say that in "proper right correct" (but boring, not Picouly's funny style) French, it should have been said :

"La porte de l'avion est grand ouverte. C'est béant et bête, une porte d'avion grand ouverte." 
Béant means wide-open.

Edit : fully agree with Jabote !


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## timpeac

Eddie said:
			
		

> Okay. This is my last go at this. Fetchez, this font size is especially for you. Now you'll only need 1 aspirin.
> 
> Let's back to the original question: La porte de l'avion est grande ouverte. C'est *béant et bête*. MY QUESTION IS: are _béant_ and _bête_ referring to the door of the airplane or the situation involving the open door? I have a feeling that both are referring to the situation. If that's the case, how exactly do you translate _béant_?


 
Eddie, yes both are referring to the door. I would translate it as "the airplane door is wide open. It looks gaping and stupid.


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## Eddie

Thanks again, Jabote. This is the 2nd time you've given an explanation that makes sense to me. You are definitely my main man!


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## Eddie

Thanks, Tim. You've confirmed what Jabote and Agnès have said.


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## Jabote

timpeac said:
			
		

> Eddie, yes both are referring to the door. I would translate it as "the airplane door is wide open. It looks gaping and stupid.


 
There we go again... you say it refers to the door, I say it refers to the situation !!! I think it refers to the "view" to be more specific, not quite the situation.


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## Eddie

Yes, Agnès. Your example is crystal clear to me. Merci infiniment!


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## Jabote

Eddie said:
			
		

> Yes, Agnès. Your example is crystal clear to me. Merci infiniment!


 
rrrroffffll ! Poor Eddie is thanking everybody one after the other !!!! Eddie don't take this the wrong way, but I imagine you turning your head in all directions, totally confused by now, but wanting to please everyone and so saying thank you just to be able to tip-toe out ! So cute !


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## timpeac

Jabote said:
			
		

> There we go again... you say it refers to the door, I say it refers to the situation !!! I think it refers to the "view" to be more specific, not quite the situation.


 
Jabote - I agree with you!! Remember "it" in English can relate to a certain object or a concept. I agree it refers to the "view" rather than the door itself. At the end of the day, physically, airplane doors are never that big!!


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## Jabote

timpeac said:
			
		

> Jabote - I agree with you!! Remember "it" in English can relate to a certain object or a concept. I agree it refers to the "view" rather than the door itself. At the end of the day, physically, airplane doors are never that big!!


 
Especially when you have to rush out... ;o)))


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## Eddie

Believe it or not, Jabote; it's clearer to me now than a half hour ago. Between you, Tim, and Agnès, I see that it refers to the view presented by the situation of the wide-open door.


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## Jabote

Eddie said:
			
		

> Believe it or not, Jabote; it's clearer to me now than a half hour ago. Between you, Tim, and Agnès, I see that it refers to the view presented by the situation of the wide-open door.


 
Oh I believe you eddie ! It is just that I could not help laughing when I saw your three thank you messages in a row addressed to everyone !

;o)))


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## le chat noir

Héhé, here comes the time when a cold and analytic mind has to try and rise to the challenge   

In the case of "c'est béant et bête", "c" refers to the whole situation : "the door of the plane being open [and the main character standing in front of it] is a situation that conveys a feeling of gaping-ness and stupid-ness"

In the case of saucisses, "c" refers to the _concept _of saucisse (yes, since Descartes, Spinoza, Pascal and friends, we Froggies came to apply conceptual thinking to the most unexpected items)

la saucisse, c'est bon -> any possible instance of the concept of undetermined bits of various dead animals mixed with fat and texturing agents, wrapped in some sort of proteinic skin is good

la saucisse est bonne -> this particular instance of saucisse (the one dripping fat from the very fork I hold in my hand right now) is good. Maybe others aren't. Maybe this one won't be after I left it freeze in its fat while typing nonsenses in this thread.

See the idea ? .


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## Jabote

le chat noir said:
			
		

> Héhé, here comes the time when a cold and analytic mind has to try and rise to the challenge
> 
> In the case of "c'est béant et bête", "c" refers to the whole situation : "the door of the plane being open [and the main character standing in front of it] is a situation that conveys a feeling of gaping-ness and stupid-ness"
> 
> In the case of saucisses, "c" refers to the _concept _of saucisse (yes, since Descartes, Spinoza, Pascal and friends, we Froggies came to apply conceptual thinking to the most unexpected items)
> 
> la saucisse, c'est bon -> any possible instances of the concept of undetermined bits of various dead animals mixed with fat and texturing agents, wrapped in some sort of proteinic skin is good
> 
> la saucisse est bonne -> this particular instance of saucisse (the one dripping fat from the very fork I hold in my hand right now) is good. Maybe others aren't. Maybe this one won't be after I left it freeze in its fat while typing nonsenses in this thread.
> 
> See the idea ? .


 
How about la robe et le pantalon ?!


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## timpeac

le chat noir said:
			
		

> Héhé, here comes the time when a cold and analytic mind has to try and rise to the challenge
> 
> In the case of "c'est béant et bête", "c" refers to the whole situation : "the door of the plane being open [and the main character standing in front of it] is a situation that conveys a feeling of gaping-ness and stupid-ness"
> 
> In the case of saucisses, "c" refers to the _concept _of saucisse (yes, since Descartes, Spinoza, Pascal and friends, we Froggies came to apply conceptual thinking to the most unexpected items)
> 
> la saucisse, c'est bon -> any possible instance of the concept of undetermined bits of various dead animals mixed with fat and texturing agents, wrapped in some sort of proteinic skin is good
> 
> la saucisse est bonne -> this particular instance of saucisse (the one dripping fat from the very fork I hold in my hand right now) is good. Maybe others aren't. Maybe this one won't be after I left it freeze in its fat while typing nonsenses in this thread.
> 
> See the idea ? .


 
I agree with this completely, but as Jabote says what about Fetchez's objections to the robe example?


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## le chat noir

Ah mince, on m'a pris au sérieux en plus .

"*la* robe, c'est beau" could mean the same as for the saucisse, but I guess "robe" is more difficult to conceptualize: the French word could be translated as "robe", "dress", "gown"; there are "robes" for monks, judges, pretty girls, fat old women, etc. It is difficult to summon a generic image for a "robe". I guess this is why such a sentence would sound odd in French.

I would rather say "*une *robe, c'est beau", implying "a dress [that suits you] is good" or "a dress [on a beautiful woman] is good".


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## Agnès E.

Faut assumer, sombre félin, surtout quand Jabote est dans les parages !


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## timpeac

le chat noir said:
			
		

> Ah mince, on m'a pris au sérieux en plus .
> 
> "*la* robe, c'est beau" could mean the same as for the saucisse, but I guess "robe" is more difficult to conceptualize: the French word could be translated as "robe", "dress", "gown"; there are "robes" for monks, judges, pretty girls, fat old women, etc. It is difficult to summon a generic image for a "robe". I guess this is why such a sentence would sound odd in French.
> 
> I would rather say "*une *robe, c'est beau", implying "a dress [that suits you] is good" or "a dress [on a beautiful woman] is good".


 
That's what I thought. You're not going to try to make me put it in two sentences then... What a good cat you are. I'll save you some sardine heads.


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## le chat noir

Mrrrraow !


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## fetchezlavache

then one can also say *les robes, c'est beau. *


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## timpeac

fetchezlavache said:
			
		

> then one can also say *les robes, c'est beau. *


C'est tout-à-fait ce que je pensais. Est-ce que tu suggères que ce n'est pas vrai?


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## fetchezlavache

no, this one is perfectly 'correct' and honey to me french ears !


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## le chat noir

That's a few sardine heads for you too .


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## Ciara

Wow! I never realised that would spark such a debate! Thank you la grive for all the possibilities! You were right Agnes; delighted!


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## Agnès E.

I'm ALWAYS right, Ciara, you will learn it, young lady...   
Je suis contente que vous ayez eu mon email!


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## Jabote

Agnes E. said:
			
		

> I'm ALWAYS right, Ciara, you will learn it, young lady...
> Je suis contente que vous ayez eu mon email!


 
Fais attention agnes, tu vas commencer à te sentir à l'étroit dans tes bottes... lol ;o)))


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## sophievm

Elle n'aura qu'à prendre celles de Juppé !


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## Agnès E.

Trop étroites pour moi, vraiment! 

Ne me gâchez pas ma joie, les filles, pour une fois qu'on rigole!


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