# Fille de joie



## Kong Ze

Moderation note: several threads have been merged to create this one. 

Hello:

I would like to translate "*fille de joie*" into English. I know it means "prostitute", and i believe it's an expression that was more used in the past and that worked as an euphemism. What would be the equivalent expression in English? Maybe "*lady of the night*"?

Thank you


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## Luder

"Lady of the night" is fine. You could also say "good-time girl."


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## Meille

Here's another: Lady of negotiable affections.

PS It's *a* euphemism (because _euphemism_ begins with a 'y' sound.)


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## franc 91

In BE it would be - a tart


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## Meille

Isn't _tart_ disparaging, though?


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## franc 91

Not necessarily - it can be used in a quite positive way


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## timboleicester

franc 91 said:


> Not necessarily - it can be used in a quite positive way



Yes it is very rude!


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## franc 91

Well I've heard it used in a friendly way, without any intention of degrading the lady in question (it's a matter of context, I suppose)


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## timboleicester

yes of course out of context it might appear very rude. For me at least a "tart" is someone who "gives" it away.


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## Kiwipro

Hello,

Is there a similar euphemism for prostitutes in English?  I really have no idea... "Glad girls"?


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## petit1

On peut dire "streetwalker". (= qui fait le trottoir).
lady of the evening - Floozy


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## LivingTree

Yes, it's a ridiculous (and archaic) euphemism for "prostitute" (joy not being the usual fate of a prostitute, but perhaps what some men feel in their company).

A similar term in English was "comfort women", the translation of what the Japanese military called the Korean women it held in sexual slavery during WWII. But that term is specific to that situation. (And "prostitute" isn't appropriate there, but then it isn't appropriate for many situations we call prostitution, which are really human trafficking.)

I think "lady of the evening" is a good approximation: archaic and non-judgmental, and euphemistic for what their situation usually was. I would avoid derogatory terms for prostituted women (whore, or even floozy.).


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## Moon Palace

I would think _a lady of pleasure_ is maybe the closest to the French


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## LivingTree

Although "lady of pleasure" is found in Urban Dictionary (only one entry, by the person who created it), and of course in other dictionaries, I have never heard anyone use the term, myself, and I don't know that it would be immediately understood by contemporary English speakers.

It's easy to find definitions and translations of the term, and works with titles or lyrics containing the term, but not so easy to find it being actually used.


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## Moon Palace

I'll ignore this peremptory tone of yours and merely quote this book written in 1998, mentioning a "lady of pleasure" 'Let's just hope these contemporary readers you allude to are better educated than you think. Filles de joie is certainly not an everyday occurrence, it is archaic and would not be used these days. Not to mention that there are about 20,000 occurrrences of this phrase in Google books.


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## pointvirgule

It seems to me that _l__ady of pleasure_ is indeed as close as it gets to the original, and equally dated. 

Might I also suggest, _lady of the night_.


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## Ardnaxela

_Lady of the night _is good, because it's old-fashioned sounding but still comprehensible to modern speakers.  _Fille de joie _may not be common, but presumably most French people would understand it?  LT is right in saying that most contemporary readers (even educated ones!) would be unfamiliar with the phrase _lady of pleasure_. Of course they could probably discern the meaning, but it would have no idiomatic ring in English, so it's not a good translation of a phrase that's idiomatic in French.  _Lady of the night _gets well over 3 times more google results than _lady of pleasure._


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## Moon Palace

I wouldn't dare say _lady of pleasure _is the only answer, and I also like _lady of the night._ But if the meaning is so difficult to grasp, can you tell me why contemporary authors keep using it? Besides, we don't even know if it is for a dialogue or a written text, and we don't even know either the date of the context for which we are making suggestions.


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## Ardnaxela

MP, it's just that _lady of pleasure _isn't widely-used enough to sound idiomatic.  Most English speakers would have to work it out, and they might interpret it incorrectly because it could also feasibly refer to a lady whose life is about her own pleasure (like the English idioms _lady who lunches _and _lady of leisure_).


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## LivingTree

[...]

For heaven's sake, the book "written in 1998", _The History of Miss Betsy Thoughtless_, has characters referred to as Mr. Trueworth and Miss Forward and Sir Bazil -- not how English novelists have referred to characters in decades.

It is part of the Broadview Literary Texts Series. Others in the series are _The Mayor of Castorbridge_, _The Moonstone_ (considered the first detective novel ever written in English) and _The History of Sandford and Merton_, written in the 1780s.

The book you linked to was not written in 1998. That edition was published in 1998. The book was written in 1751 (see page 7 at your link). A native English speaker reading only a few words of the page you linked to can tell that we are looking at something more contemporary with Jane Austen than with Jane Rule.

I believe you have proved the point made by some of us English speakers here. 

"Lady of the evening", first proposed by petit1 in post #2, strikes the right tone, in my opinion. I am personally more used to it than "lady of the night", but either one would suit.


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## Moon Palace

[...]

Regarding "absolute truth", I don't believe it exists at all. This is precisely why I'd like native speakers (and I personally endeavour myself to do so) to give the benefit of the doubt more often when a phrase they have never encountered appears. 
I need to apologise for not checking the date of the book beyond the edition, so that I'll provide another book this time really written in 2011 by the author of the famous "Colour Purple" where "_lady of pleasure"_ and later _woman of pleasure_ are mentioned. I doubt Alice Walker would use words people will not understand.


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## Ardnaxela

[...]

You could also have _scarlet woman_.


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## All in One

What about a _business girl_? Just found it on this thesaurus page.


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## LivingTree

[...]

I continue to fail to understand the insistence on pressing an obscure English   term -- that English speakers say is obscure -- on someone looking for help   with English.

Your next link is to a page about Alice Walker's first book, _The Third Life of George Copeland_,   but I don't see the terms at that link. It is an historical novel  about  three generations of a family in the US, George Copeland being an   African-American who moved north in search of better opportunities;  this  would likely have occurred in about the 1870s (I have been unable to find precise information, despite mighty tries). His  grandchildren's generation would likely have been born in the early part of the  20th century.

... Right, I found the reference by clicking on the book image lower on that page,  to produce a brief snippet of text.

It is in a line of dialogue:  "*Ornette's a--lady of pleasure!*" That line is followed by this: "*He remembered that phrase from the letter from the old guy, the preacher ... .*" I don't know which character is speaking, but he is using a phrase _that is archaic even to him_, and I would think that the dialogue in question, while written about 1970, has been put in the mouth of someone speaking at least a century ago now.

Again, that use of the term is simply not grounds for advocating that it be used in our day and age and asserting that people today could be expected to know what it means.


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## doinel

_it's just that lady of pleasure isn't widely-used enough ._  Same as Fille de joie .


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## LivingTree

But you know what a _fille de joie_ is, right, doinel?

Both Ardnaxela and I have said that an average English speaker would _not_ know what a "lady of pleasure" was without stopping to work it out from the context.


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## Nicomon

I know that I probably shouldn't be adding this post, but I can't help giving a link to *that song* I just happened to find. 

I'm not familiar with that folk rock group, (or if I ever was, I forgot about them) but just have a look at *the title and lyrics. *Should we assume that the members are not "average English speakers"? Somehow I doubt it. And if they're still playing today, they can't be 100 + year old. 

So while I agree that _lady of the night _is probably more common in 2012, I also agree with Moon and pointvirgule that context depending, _lady of pleasure _cannot be ruled out as a possible translation of _fille de joie_ which isn't exactly common usage either, and even more dated (13th century) than _lady of pleasure _(cerca 1630) if my sources are right.


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## pointvirgule

Nothing like a nice graph to cut through the cr shed some light on usage issues. Heard of G**gle's Ngram Viewer?
Here are the compared results for _lady of the evening_, _lady of the night_ and _lady of pleasure_.

Well whaddyaknow, up until c. 1975, _lady of pleasure_ is the winner. Or is 1975 too ancient a time for today's English speakers to remember?


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## orlando09

franc 91 said:


> Well I've heard it used in a friendly way, without any intention of degrading the lady in question (it's a matter of context, I suppose)



The only context in which it would not be disparaging is if used jokingly among good friends (most common with younger people). Originally it is a disparaging word, and could mean a prostitute or otherwise "loose" woman (femme facile). I think lady of the night is the right sort of register - a bit old-fashioned, a bit euphemistic, but obviously referring to a prostitute.



LivingTree said:


> Although "lady of pleasure" is found in Urban Dictionary (only one entry, by the person who created it), and of course in other dictionaries, I have never heard anyone use the term, myself, and I don't know that it would be immediately understood by contemporary English speakers.
> 
> It's easy to find definitions and translations of the term, and works with titles or lyrics containing the term, but not so easy to find it being actually used.



I agree, never heard that, I'd understand it in context, maybe, but I might also just think it meant a hedonistic woman.  On the other hand, lady of the night is familiar in British English as an old euphemism for prostitute, and I am familiar with fille de joie as a (in my opinion, well-known) French equivalent. Another English version would be lady of easy virtue, but that's less eupemistic, and also could mean "femme facile" as well as prostitute.

I wouldn't say I am familiar with "lady of the evening" either, as an idiom. "Night" is much more common, in my view.

I did an advanced Google search on "Lady of pleasure" in the UK, and the hits mainly referenced a 1637 play; so I would suggest in the UK at least, it's too archaic to be well-known, as opposed to "lady of the night" which is merely old-fashioned.



All in One said:


> What about a _business girl_? Just found it on this thesaurus page.



Not heard that one, though "working girl" is a modern eupemism for prostitute sometimes. But it doesn't have the dated feel of "fille de joie".


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## Mauricet

Pour comprendre finement ce que _fille de joie_ évoque en français, il faut savoir, je crois, que la chanson de Georges Brassens _La complainte des filles de joie_ est présente à l'esprit de presque tout le monde (sauf peut-être les plus jeunes et/ou incultes*) :





> Bien que ces vaches de bourgeois
> Les appellent des filles de joie
> C'est pas tous les jours qu'elles rigolent
> Parole, parole ...


Une conséquence de cette présence dans la culture populaire est que l'expression _fille de joie_ est incontestablement comprise sans ambiguïté comme un synonyme plutôt affectueux et compatissant, et poétique, de _prostituée_, mais ne serait pas utilisée quotidiennement.

*mot mal choisi pour "restés étrangers à la culture populaire de leur temps", sans jugement de valeur.


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## DearPrudence

Mauricet said:


> Pour comprendre finement ce que _fille de joie_ évoque en français, il faut savoir, je crois, que la chanson de Georges Brassens _La complainte des filles de joie_ est présente à l'esprit de presque tout le monde  [...]


[...]Des jeunes qui ne connaissent pas Brassens connaissent cette expression, qui est un peu datée mais normalement, pas inconnue et pas rare. Je ne dis pas que _tous _les jeunes connaissent, mais une grande partie.

Donc, à mon très humble avis d'inculte, il faudrait aussi que l'équivalent anglais soit à peu près connu et compréhensible par tous les anglophones, et d'autant plus par des personnes qui, je pense, sont assez cultivées pour participer activement à ce forum. Dommage qu'on ne les écoute pas et qu'on préfère faire confiance à des livres (quand on voit le nombre d'expressions bizarres l'on trouve dans des œuvres françaises, modernes ou non, comme on peut le voir dans le forum Français Seulement)...


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## orlando09

Nicomon said:


> _lady of pleasure _cannot be ruled out as a possible translation of _fille de joie_ which isn't exactly common usage either, and even more dated (13th century) than _lady of pleasure _(cerca 1630) if my sources are right.



Are you referring to first recorded uses? That's not what makes something "dated" (ie. old-fashioned), it's a question of how commonly used an expression is now..


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## LivingTree

pointvirgule said:


> Here are the compared results for _lady of the evening_, _lady of the night_ and _lady of pleasure_.
> 
> Well whaddyaknow, up until c. 1975, _lady of pleasure_ is the winner. Or is 1975 too ancient a time for today's English speakers to remember?


I believe it was Samuel Clemens who said: there are lies, there are damned lies, and there are statistics.

I have absolutely no idea _what_ the results being tabulated by Google there are, and I assume you don't either. Presumably, the 1998 reprint of the book published in 1731, referred to earlier, is included in those post-1975 figures, as are any occurrences of references to James Shirley's 1637 book "The Lady of Pleasure" ... which _is not about a prostitute_.

The book The Young Lady of Pleasure,  published by the American Tract Society in 1865 (from what I can tell),  which turns up in google searches and is presumably also included in  those statistics, _is not about a prostitute_ (and the publisher and readers would have been absolutely horrified to hear that anyone thought it was; page 10: "You know that I am but a babe in Christ").

In 2011, half the Canadian population (reasonably representative of similar countries) was under the age of 39.9 years. It's been 37 years since 1975. I doubt that many people born since 1975 have heard of Fairport Convention, the "English folk rock and later electric folk band, formed in 1967 who are still recording and touring today", who performed the song entitled "Lady of Pleasure". 

And the 2005 book Callgirl: Confessions _of_ an Ivy League Lady of Pleasure obviously used the term as an intentionally precious euphemism.

So, more evidence that the term is not only archaic, it is ambiguous, as Ardnaxela said some time ago.


Glad to hear some French speakers' views of the French term too! In the course of googling yesterday, I encountered a question about the women who were sent from France to New France in the 1600s to provide incentive for men to settle and colonize (les Filles du roi, known in English as the King's Daughters): _Filles du roi ou filles de joie_? (also the title of a book on the question).


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## guillaumedemanzac

*lady of leisure* is definitely not a *lady of pleasure* but because the two phrases rhyme they are sometimes jokingly contrasted.
Belle de jour is a* lady of the night*. Polite for a putain is a *streetwalker*.
American is a *hooker*, English is a *harlot*, *tart*, *strumpet*, *trollop*, *whore*. *Tart* is probably the most polite and used of non-professionals who dress like tarts and sound/speak like tarts - but an *old tart* can be an affectionate term: "You old tart, you!" probably because it rhymes with the masculine equivalent: "You old fart,you!"  The other "polite" use of tart is to describe someone as *a tart with a heart*. 
 Professional high-class is a *call girl* - American and English.
guillaume


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## Mauricet

Tous ces mots sont des traductions de _prostituée_ plutôt que de _fille de joie_, il me semble. On discute de la traduction de _fille de joie_.


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## guillaumedemanzac

Prostitute is either prostituée or putain - all the others are euphemisms like the French *Lady of joy/pleasure* but though they are synonyms they vary in usage in terms of politeness, acceptability. My Larousse very politely calls a prostitute "a lady of bad repute"  femme de mauvaise vie"  - that is certainly a euphemism, especially if she is a tart with a heart!    
guillaume


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## word_junkie

LivingTree said:


> A similar term in English was "comfort women", the translation of what the Japanese military called the Korean women it held in sexual slavery during WWII. But that term is specific to that situation. .



Also 'Joy Division' (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joy_Division_(disambiguation)). 

The term has become better known since the eponymous pop group revived it. Some people would understand what is meant by eg "serving in the Joy Division" but it is a bit arch and makes light of something serious. "A volunteer in the Joy Division" would neutralise the idea of compulsion but these are not current expressions.

Lady of Pleasure is very Fanny Hill. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanny_Hill  ) 

"Good time girl" suggests to me a young woman bent on fun rather than looking for "compensated dating" opportunities, which is a pity since 'Looking for a good time, sir?' _is_ the harlot's cry, often enough.

In some contexts 'escort' might do - perhaps too euphemistic?


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## Nicomon

orlando09 said:


> Are you referring to first recorded uses? That's not what makes something "dated" (ie. old-fashioned), it's a question of how commonly used an expression is now..


 My mistake. Yes, I was referring to first recorded uses. I initially wrote "older" instead of "more dated" and probably shouldn't have changed it. 

Although I'm familiar with it, I can't say that I actually heard « _fille de joie »_ all that often (if at all) in a daily conversation in my nearly 60 years of life. 
The song I referred to - _Lady of pleasure_ - is by *British *folk rock group Fairport Convention (who, granted, are certainly not as popular as the Beatles were ). 

The first verse goes like this: 


> She's a *lady of pleasure*, she's a* lady of joy
> *And she has no illusions of grandeur
> You can get what you want when your money's up front
> She's a sailor-lad's port in a storm


And this is copied from a site where you can listen to an extract - Date de sortie : *19 Janvier 2007
*
So *I assumed *- or I wouldn't have mentioned it - that *someone, somewhere*, might have heard it in the last 5 years.

All I'm saying is that in my not so humble opinion, _lady of pleasure - _again context depending (e.g. when the original was written) _- _cannot be ruled out as a possible translation of _fille de joie -_ which by the way isn't the only euphemism of that type.

Ever heard of _*Belle de nuit*_, in French? This is copied from the WR dictionary: 


> _euphemism_ (prostitute)
> *belle de nuit *_nf
> _With her tight short dress, high heels and makeup, she looked like a* lady of the night*.


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## LivingTree

The American Tract Society would have been especially horrified by Elton John!

Depending on the context (which I think we still don't know in the case of the new question in this thread), "working girl" could actually fit. It is a non-judgmental euphemism, and is really a little old-fashioned these days: I don't know that even the cops on the various Law&Orders would still say it.

(just for info: The accepted, neutral terminology today is "sex-trade worker" or "sex worker", but that is intended to cover a broader spectrum, and does not exclude men; of course, it also intentionally disregards that fact that many such workers are more like enslaved persons than workers).


Oh, _sigh_, Nicomon. "Lady of Pleasure" may have been REreleased in 2007, but it was on an album released IN 1978 (and for all I know it was written/released even earlier than that as well).

And Fairport Convention is a folk group. Folk groups are not averse to using archaic euphemisms. The album in question was called "Tipplers Tales". Nobody called a drunk a "tippler" in 1978, either. The other titles on the album were:

Ye Mariners All
Three Drunken Maidens
Jack O'Rion
Reynard The Fox
Bankruptured                                                     
The Widow Of Westmoorland
The Hair Of The Dogma / As Bitme / John Barleycorn

One becomes awfully tempted to say _Q.E.D._

.


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## Nicomon

Anyone who actually means to say _working girl_ or the more recent_ sex worker_ (literally:_ travailleur/travailleuse du sexe) _certainly wouldn't be saying_ 
fille de joie_ nowadays. 

You think 1978 is ancient times? Have it your way. I'm done arguing.


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## Squiggle

I didn't realise "fille de joie" was archaic. During the recent demonstration by prostitutes in Paris and other French cities over proposed changes to the law, many demonstrators wore badges with "fille de joie" written on them!


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## DearPrudence

To me (but that's only my opinion as an "inculte"), as I said, you can't say it is "archaic" in French:


DearPrudence said:


> [...]
> Des jeunes qui ne connaissent pas Brassens (et qu'on a l'impudence de laisser vivre malgré cette offense capitale ) connaissent cette expression, qui est un peu datée mais normalement, pas inconnue et pas rare. Je ne dis pas que _tous _les jeunes connaissent, mais une grande partie. [...]


I must admit I rather picture prostitutes in the 19th century rather than modern prostitutes, but to me, again, the word itself is still known to the majority of French speakers, even those who don't know the song by Georges Brassens.

So to me, the equivalent in English should also be quite known to the majority of English speakers. I would find it strange that you translate a French word that is known to almost all French natives into a word in English that would have native speakers, including well-educated people, wonder what this is supposed to mean exactly.

If the word is still used now and then nowadays but is not common, I don't think that this is a good equivalent.
But again, just my opinion. I wouldn't dare to judge on the admissibility/usage of a word in a language that is not my native language, just by citing books and eccentric authors...


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## pointvirgule

DP, the presence of a phrase in a substantial number of books is proof that it exists, I would think. This serves to disprove arguments to the effect that the phrase in non-idiomatic. 

Arguing that it is wrong to refer to printed material when assessing matters of language, well, what can one say about that...

[...]


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## Nicomon

> [...]If the word is still used now and then nowadays but is not common, I don't think that this is a good equivalent.


 DP, all we wrote is that _lady of pleasure_ cannot be completely ruled out as a possible translation of _fille de joie _context depending (era, location, etc.)! 

Nobody wrote that it was the best and only solution for a 20th century novel. And_ lady of the night _is only one of the several other possibilities. 
Who among us has never encountered a word that they didn't understand, and searched for the meaning in a dictionary before? 
Does it necessarily mean that the author's word is wrong or archaic... simply because we never heard it before? 

Just how many times have I read on this forum that a word which is still very common usage in Quebec is old/not used anymore? 

Just as _lady of the night_ can also be translated as _belle de nuit_ (as in the WR example quoted earllier)... 

I know, I said I was done arguing. I've often said that before.

*Edit : *I hadn't seen pv's last post.


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## All in One

DearPrudence makes a good point when s/he says that the translation for _fille de joie_ should be understandable for most English-speakers, as so is the French phrase. I fully agree; to me that's a golden rule in translation.

Several native English-speakers have clearly stated that 'lady of pleasure' would *not* be understood by most people.

The other side (allow me the expression) has retorted that the phrase 'lady of pleasure' was used in literature and song lyrics.
Is a term that is used now and then in books necessarily understandable to most people? - It is not.

[...]

Is the phrase _fille de joie_ archaic? - A bit old-fashioned at most, but still current.

Are some people on here arguing to save face? ...


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## LivingTree

[...]

Edit: sorry, no, _fille de joie_ may be a euphemism and may indeed be precions, but it is used by French speakers where English speakers do not use "lady of pleasure". Someone who wrote a memoir of her life as a _fille de joie_ would not be saying it with tongue in cheek the way someone writing of herself as a "lady of pleasure" is. It's that simple. No one engaging in protests about prostitution laws (which we have lots of here in Canada, it being a litigious issue on which a major decision was just released by the Ontario Court of Appeal earlier this year) wears a badge identifying herself as a "lady of pleasure". No one.


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## pointvirgule

[...]

A "precious euphemism" (#39) is exactly what _fille de joie_ is. One precious euphemism for another...


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## KaRiNe_Fr

Salut,

D'accord avec DP pour dire que, comme il semble que _lady of pleasure_ soit incompréhensible par la plupart des anglophones, et que _fille de joie_ est parfaitement compréhensible par la plupart des francophones, ça coince.  
Comprenez notre étonnement chers anglophones : la similarité des deux expressions est telle qu'il est difficile d'imaginer (mais je vous crois, n'en doutez pas !) que l'anglaise ne serait pas comprise par un anglophone quand la française serait comprise même par un francophone qui ne connaîtrait pas l'expression tellement elle est transparente. 
Je voulais juste ajouter ceci à propos de l'expression française : même si _fille de joie_ peut sembler mignon a priori, le fait même d'utiliser le terme _fille_ montre qu'on n'a pas trop de considération pour cette personne. On pouvait même utiliser le raccourci _fille_ tout court (sans ajouter _de joie_) pour parler d'une prostituée. Sans doute dans la bouche de Brassens c'était utilisé avec tendresse et indulgence (et sans doute a-t-il modifié un peu l'acception de cette expression dans l'inconscient collectif francophone), mais à la base, ce n'est pas vraiment gentil-gentil...


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## jann

Greetings all.

This thread is closed for the time being.  We expect discussions here on WordReference to remain pleasant (or at a very minimum, cordial) and on-topic at all times.  If you cannot agree, then agree to disagree, but no one wants to read an argument, let alone a repetitive one.

Regards,
Jann
Moderator


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