# Adoption



## timpeac

Hello

I was just watching the news and there was a story that got me thinking, but not I for the reason they meant, I suspect.

There is some new technique to do with mucking about with genetics that cures some disease. Now I have made that deliberately vague for the reason that this is not at all what I wish to discuss.

The news piece was about the question "should we muck about with genetics for medical gain" which I don't wish to discuss, but something that interested/surprised me was said in this news piece. We saw a woman who we were told would benefit from this technique because "her son was born with a defect in almost every organ. But he is better off than her previous 6 children because they all died".

Now, when I hear that I think why the hell did she continue having children when she knew there was a problem (and a highly probable one at that, at she may have guessed after the 2nd 3rd 4th 5th or 6th death). Stupid cow.

Anyway, even this is not exactly what I want to discuss. I am wondering not so much why as soon as it was obvious her actions may well result in death and suffering she didn't stop having babies (although that is a valid question) but rather why she didn't happily adopt instead.

I often wonder why people don't adopt kids rather than have their own (I know adopting babies may be popular and there may not be enough of those to go round but I mean older kids too). Personally I am gay so you may think "well he would think that because there would be no other option than adopt" but I can't help believing if I were straight I would rather adopt an unwanted kid rather than bring another into the world with the only particular distinction to me being that it shares my DNA, or that of the person I love. It just wouldn't be that important to me. Of courseI can't know for sure but I really think so.

How about all of you, particularly those with kids. Why not adopt and make some existing unhappy kids happy. Why have your own instead, is it that important to you or did the option of adoption not even occur to you?


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## GenJen54

> originally posted by *timpeac*
> Why have your own instead, is it that important to you or did the option of adoption not even occur to you?


This is a tough one. I am: a) of child-bearing age (although getting closer to the end of that era; b) recently married; c) (desperately?) trying to conceive. It's a touchy subject for me, to say the least. 

Quite simply, my husband and I want a child. Adoption is certainly an option, but not until we give our "best effort" to have one on our own. 

I believe one of the reasons many couples to not see adoption as a "first choice," besides the "DNA" factor, is that adoption, as a process, is long, extremely expensive and emotionally taxing. People can get divorced over it. The paperwork alone scares off many couples.

I had a friend who, before she conceived artificially, started filling out adoption paperwork. She went through various adoption agencies to register. They wanted to know every detail - and I mean EVERYthing - about herself, her husband, their parents, siblings, pets, health histories, background checks, financial checks, etc. In the case of several of the agencies, they had to perform a home visit before they would even consider accepting their paperwork. Once parents are "accepted" by any given agency, there are more home visits as well as psychologial evaluations, etc. People must go through all of this only to have to wait up to two years(+) to have a child. It's intimidating, to say the least. Many give up before they really get started.

Foreign adoptions are not much easier. For a US Citizen, the average foreign adoption (China, USSR, parts of Africa) costs between $20,000 and $40,000 US dollars. This is not inclusive of local (US) legal fees, travel expenses and all of the amenities needed to bring a new baby - or even a young child - into one's home. Not many people have that kind of money, or at least are able to come by it easily. 

To be honest, Tim, it's just an arduous process (at least in the US). If it were not so difficult, more people would probably consider it.


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## cuchuflete

Tough question Tim,

I didn't seriously consider adoption, for reasons that I suspect are common, but I'll speak only for myself.  Carrying on what I grew up with was part of it..the basic assumption that having children, but not too many, was part of 'normal' adult life.
My kids' mother was adopted, so we discussed both that, and the possibility of adopting.
And then, with little further thought, we ...she did all the work...conceived two children.  The workload of parenting, and two full-time jobs between us, was such that we decided to stop at two.

Why didn't we give more thought and attention to adoption?  I don't really know.  I guess the human/animal urge to procreate is a part of it.  Ego may have played a role.  The uncertainty and fear of what we might have got from another couple's genes may have crossed our minds.

They say that purchase decisions, and hence advertising, are often driven by three of the strongest human emotions or tendencies: fear, greed, ego.  The first and third, I suspect, came into play in not pursuing adoption.


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## Swettenham

timpeac said:
			
		

> I often wonder why people don't adopt kids rather than have their own (I know adopting babies may be popular and there may not be enough of those to go round but I mean older kids too). Personally I am gay so you may think "well he would think that because there would be no other option than adopt" but I can't help believing if I were straight I would rather adopt an unwanted kid rather than bring another into the world with the only particular distinction to me being that it shares my DNA, or that of the person I love. It just wouldn't be that important to me. Of courseI can't know for sure but I really think so.
> 
> How about all of you, particularly those with kids. Why not adopt and make some existing unhappy kids happy. Why have your own instead, is it that important to you or did the option of adoption not even occur to you?


Timpeac, you have read my heart.  I, too, plan to adopt.

My best friend was adopted as an infant.  When his father-to-be visited the orphanage, one of the workers there gave him this piece of advice: "Don't expect him to thank you."  (I know this because my friend has told me).

It won't be easy.  The child will be as selfish and self-centered as any adolescent.  The important thing is to treat him or her as your very own child, no more nor less, and to understand the vast loneliness that can grow in the soul of a child who was abandoned by his or her birth parents.  It can take a great deal of patience and persistence to "persuade" an adopted child that his or her home is with you, that he or she has a place of love in the world to return to.


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## valerie

I'm talking here only from my own experience. I think the biological and psychological process of getting a child was one of the strongest and most valuable experience in my life (I'm a woman, I guess it is relevant to mention it). The decision to have children was only partly an intelectual one, a rational one if you prefer. It was also an afective one, the desire to materialize the relationship with my partner, the desire to continue a family and be mother as my mother when she got me. This is not just a DNA topic, perhaps it is also about power, the power to create, the power to grow and mature. Anyway if I could, I would do it again. and I have to admit I did not really think about adoption at that time.

On the other side, as was mentioned before, adoption is a very complicated process, in France and in Spain too. There are almost no children given in adoption, at least not in the dimension that corresponds to the 'demand' of parents-to-be. Those who I know have adopted have gone to a foreign country to get a child. They had 'problems' to be biological fathers, or had already a biologial child and did not want to go through another pregnancy. 

There is another point I want to mention. A child living in a poor family is not necesarily less happy than a child in a rich country/family. The income per capita is not a relevant criteria for hapiness, especially of children. In the countries that provide a lot of children to western parents, there is always the suspition that there is an adoption market, even with all the regulations and controls, that people abandon their children to that market, not necesarily 'selling' them, but at least knowing they may be adopted. And I always thought I would feel uneasy to be in the doubt if I would foster this 'market'. It is a dificult question, and I only mention my doubts (theoretical ones, as I do not plan to adopt ).


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## CBFelix

Once I asked the question to a couple, husband was a protestant priest, who adapted a girl while they had already a child and after adoption they got two more babies their own, ‘weather the love is the same towards adopted one or still they love their own kids more?’ He said that ‘No, Love towards the adopted girl is not the same’ and he continued ‘It cannot be the same. If you don’t have a child, you love your adopted one as much as you can because you don’t know what it means to have your own.  But once you have your own, it’s totally different.’ … 

I totally agree with him. 

I thing it’s not fair towards adopted one if you have a child already, even if you thing you can give them a better life or a chance to have a better life.


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## CBFelix

I continue…

On the other hand, those who are childless and desire to have one, should consider to adopt.. 

All these procedures that GenJen complained above, I thing there are more than necessary. There are so many people out there with bad intentions, perverts, pimps..  As they rushed, once,  to the east Europe, to Romania, to Bosnia , to Albania after the collapse of iron curtain and the war in order to adopt young girls or boys where there is no strict control over procedures., where adoption was so easy.. And so many of these adopted kids were abused, or, later on, they even ended up in a brothel.. Dramas, tragedies were all over..


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## modgirl

The need to have children is a simple biological one; it's why we've survived for thousands of years!



			
				CBFelix said:
			
		

> He said that ‘No, Love towards the adopted girl is not the same’ and he continued ‘It cannot be the same. If you don’t have a child, you love your adopted one as much as you can because you don’t know what it means to have your own. But once you have your own, it’s totally different.’ …


 
I don't doubt that man's words.  However, I hope most adoptive parents (even those who have biological children) do not think that way.  In fact, one friend told me that with biological children, you have to take what you get.  With adoption, you get to choose!  (No, I'm not adopted myself and have never adopted children, but I liked the sentiment)


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## panjandrum

I can only speak of my own experience.
Did we think of adoption?  Not for a moment.
Can I explain that?  No.
Would rational argument suggest we should have?  Perhaps.
Would that have made any difference?  I am certain it wouldn't.
Can I explain that?  No.
Do adoptive parents love their children differently?  I have no way of knowing for certain, but as I observe them, adoptive parents appear to feel the same intensity of care and unconditional love for their children as the rest of us - even when they had no choice at all in their adopted kids.


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## modgirl

panjandrum said:
			
		

> even when they had no choice at all in their adopted kids.


 
It took me a moment to digest this.  I was referring to the fact that the adoptive parents very purposely choose to adopt a child, as opposed to having an unplanned pregnancy occur.  So, when I read what you wrote, I thought, "How can you adopt a child without making a choice to do so?!"


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## Kelly B

The process of conceiving and bearing a child is miraculous. 

The initial amazement that it really worked; the first flickers of movement; the little bump from a foot moving here and there; the discovery that she has mama's eyes and daddy's chin... I don't want to do it again, particularly, but I feel blessed that I could participate in a genuine miracle.

On the other hand, my adopted niece is an absolute joy, and she was brought into my brother's family out of generosity of spirit. They had their first born the traditional way, and had no reason to think they couldn't do that again, but chose to offer a home to someone who needed one. I think that was a wonderful gift, not just from them, but to them as well.


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## modgirl

Kelly B said:
			
		

> I think that was a wonderful gift, not just from them, but to them as well.


 
Giving a child to someone else to adopt is one of the most selfless acts in the world, in my opinion.  I have nothing but respect for those who do so.


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## Monnik

modgirl said:
			
		

> Giving a child to someone else to adopt is one of the most selfless acts in the world, in my opinion. I have nothing but respect for those who do so.


 
I come into this thread a bit late, but I feel I have to put in my 2c worth.  

I could not agree more with you, modgirl.

I have a boy and a girl, both of whom came to us through adoption.  Now, there is something here I'd like to point out.  A group of mothers I know recently wrote and published a book on the subject, and one of the things they have set out to do is to get people to use the phrase "by/through adoption", rather than "adoptive".   Let me explain:

When you use the term "adoptive", it becomes somewhat of a "brand" on the child, subject to stereotypes that have been carried on from generation to generation.  Not that these will go away if you don't use the word itself, but think about it: If, instead of saying "my adoptive child", one says "my child _through_ adoption", it does change the perspective a little bit.  

This is not to cover the fact, or to try to make it go away, not at all.  It is a reality, but it is one that must be seen as simply another way of forming a family. Adoption is but the _means_ that made the family come together.  From that point on, the responsibility is the same.

I can do nothing but thank God for the kindness of a woman who, in this case, decided to offer her two babies (yes, my boy and girl are biological siblings) an opportunity she thought she was not going to be able to give them.  What strength of mind and heart to accept such a limitation, and to be able to go beyond that and act in such a selfless manner.

Will I tell them they came to us through adoption? Of course I will.  In fact, I already have (in a way for them to begin to understand it, for they are still little).  First of all, they have a right to know, and second of all, it is the reality that allowed us to become the family that we are.

I don't know how they might react when they are older and able to poder deeper about the issue.  All I know is what I can do now, and that is to strengthen their self-esteem as much as I possibly can so that, when the time comes, they will know they were never alone, and never will be.

And, with regards to what that protestant priest said about people who adopt only loving their children "as much as they can", as if they would never be actually able to love them the same way, well, tell me, how can you possibly measure love?  How can you possibly tell me anyone loves their children more than I do mine?

There is simply not a single thing he could possibly do for any one of his biological children that I would not do for mine.

Again, just my 2c worth.

My best to all


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## Brioche

timpeac said:
			
		

> Hello
> 
> How about all of you, particularly those with kids. Why not adopt and make some existing unhappy kids happy. Why have your own instead, is it that important to you or did the option of adoption not even occur to you?


 
In Australia, since the introduction in the 1970s of pensions for single mothers, and effectively abortion on demand, there are very few Australian children put up for adoption. There were only 73 local adoptions in Australia in 2003-04. 

Essentially here, adoption is for couples who are unable to have children of their own, rather than couples who choose not to.

My spouse and I had no trouble producing children, so we never considered adoption. If it had turned out that we were infertile, it could have been a different story.


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## Monnik

I guess I must add that my husband and I did try to have children by means of conception first.   We were unable to, but we always knew we would opt for adoption if that were not possible.  

My best...


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## ElaineG

Late to the party too, but I have to say (although I am open to having biological children, and am currently contemplating that possibility) that adoption has held a strong moral compulsion for me as long as I can remember.

For starters, I am very pessimistic about the state of the world, particularly environmentally.  I think things could be truly awful in 40, 50, 70 years.  I wonder whether it is selfish to bring a new life into this potentially horrendous mess, and also incrementally increase the burden on our poor planet.  (THIS IS NOT A CRITICISM OF THOSE WHO CHOOSE TO HAVE CHILDREN BIOLOGICALLY -- just my individual moral perspective).  

I've also always had intense sympathy for children, particularly girls, who don't have a full range of opportunities in their home environment because of who they are -- female, the wrong ethnicity etc.  Now, in cultures where a girl child is seen as less desirable, it is becoming increasingly common just to abort female fetuses, but there are still many girl babies left in orphanages simply because they are female.  It pleases me to think that I might be able to offer one of those little girls a home.

Finally, I have no special attachment to my own DNA.  I think the wonderful things that my partner and I have to offer a child are independent of our genetic makeup.  My family is bonded together because we share a love for each other and common memories as well as passions for humor, talking, books, cooking etc. -- our "micro culture" that keeps us so close has nothing to do with the fact that we all have curly hair and blue eyes.  

At the end of the day, I'm willing to try to conceive, but not to take extraordinary measures to do so.  I understand the desparate urge that leads couples to spend years in medical treatment and tens of thousands of dollars to fight the biological clock and other impediments.  I just don't feel it -- I'd rather spend the same money working towards giving a child that's already born a home.  Even if I do end up with a biological child, I'd like him or her to have an adoptive sibling one day.


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## maxiogee

Would you, if you were in a position to make the judgement, allow a woman who had insisted on having several children who were doomed to die due to a genetic defect, (and I'm not sure at what point I would have wanted her to stop, but I think 3 should have been enough) to adopt?

Adoption in Ireland is a rigorous process.
I think that the determination shown by the woman in question shows a self-interest which could only be described as unhealthy. Assuming that the children were all conceived with the same father then either he, she or both, were passing on a defect. 
As a body charged with being solely concerned with the welfare of the child, an adoption board would have to look unkindly on an application from her & her husband.

As to the general adoption issue, I think that our DNA tends to give us a primal urge to procreate. That said, it seems that this urge is easily overcome by some people, be they celibates, gays, or others who for whatever reason have not had children.


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## danielfranco

It's difficult to contribute with anything at least as meaningful as the rest of all the insightful previous posts, but I wanted to comment on the lady in question at the inicial post.
Was this lady part of the poorest group of people in her country? Because it seems that such difficult moral and economic considerations, such as the social and personal advantages of adoption, are some of the many luxuries that people scrabbling for mere survival hardly ever stop to ponder.
I think that to call that lady "stupid cow" might just be the plain truth. I doubt anyone with the luxury of stopping even for a moment to think of the consequences and alternatives would have chosen such heartache and sorrow willingly.


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## timpeac

danielfranco said:
			
		

> It's difficult to contribute with anything at least as meaningful as the rest of all the insightful previous posts, but I wanted to comment on the lady in question at the inicial post.
> Was this lady part of the poorest group of people in her country? Because it seems that such difficult moral and economic considerations, such as the social and personal advantages of adoption, are some of the many luxuries that people scrabbling for mere survival hardly ever stop to ponder.
> I think that to call that lady "stupid cow" might just be the plain truth. I doubt anyone with the luxury of stopping even for a moment to think of the consequences and alternatives would have chosen such heartache and sorrow willingly.


 
I have to be honest and say I don't completely remember, although I remember being quite cross at the time. I'm fairly sure not, though, because I wouldn't have been so harsh otherwise. As far as I remember it was presented as the choice of a middle class person.

It is very hard to understand, isn't it?


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## gato2

Creo que hay algo en el ser humano que nos impulsa a procrearnos y aunque admiro mucho a la gente que adopta niños personalmente no creo que lo hiciese. No puedo explicar porque no, es solo que creo que para hacer algo asi tienes que estar muy muy motivada porque estas buscando todos los problemas que trae la maternidad/paternidad con alguien que biologicamente no es tu hijo (aunque ya se que en el corazon si).


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## timpeac

gato2 said:
			
		

> Creo que hay algo en el ser humano que nos impulsa a procrearnos y aunque admiro mucho a la gente que adopta niños personalmente no creo que lo hiciese. No puedo explicar porque no, es solo que creo que para hacer algo asi tienes que estar muy muy motivada porque estas buscando todos los problemas que trae la maternidad/paternidad con alguien que biologicamente no es tu hijo (aunque ya se que en el corazon si).


 
Sí, tienes razón. Por cierto no es tan fácil como querer y ya está el hijo

Tengo muchísima admiración para los que optan por la adopción.


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## Chaska Ñawi

We have two natural children, plus a god-daughter who lives with us for extended periods, and a former foster child.  They are all our children.

We certainly would have considered adoption if we had been unable to conceive, and would have adopted our foster son if he'd been unable to return to his mother.  Adding more children to our household through fostering or adoption hasn't been at all ruled out, but at the moment I'm trying to get established in a second career.

In Canada, many parents who have children in foster care refuse to allow them to be placed for adoption and the children are subsequently shuttled between different homes.  Other children have disabilities that require intensive outside support, which is not always available for potential adoptive parents.  In some cases, foster parents will raise a child as their own but not adopt them, because the financial support for treatment and therapy disappears as soon as the adoption papers are signed.  Additionally, as has already been noted, the process of being approved for adoption is arduous and expensive, to say the least.

Back to the comment about the protestant priest.  I have occasionally seen adoptive families who did not love their adopted child as much as their own.  In each case, they adopted a child as company for their natural child; love for the adopted child was never in the cards.  The emotional damage they wreaked on these children (these particular families "undid" the adoptions within the first year) is incalculable.  This does not mean that it is impossible to love adopted and natural children equally; only that some very few people do not know how to love.


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## Monnik

gato2 said:
			
		

> Creo que hay algo en el ser humano que nos impulsa a procrearnos y aunque admiro mucho a la gente que adopta niños personalmente no creo que lo hiciese. No puedo explicar porque no, es solo que creo que para hacer algo asi tienes que estar muy muy motivada porque estas buscando todos los problemas que trae la maternidad/paternidad con alguien que biologicamente no es tu hijo (aunque ya se que en el corazon si).


 

I will post in English, given this is the Cultural Discussions forum, and maybe some of those who have posted don't speak Spanish... ??  Anyway...

Believe me, the only admiration in the adoption process should be for the woman who selflessly gave the child away.  I don't know how to explain it.  People say "I admire you", but I speak from my heart when I tell you that my role as a mother should be measured up to the role and performance of any mother, and, if that calls for admiration, then so be it.

Chidren through adoption deserve for any parent to be willing to give it their all, in every sense of the word.  The protestant priest clearly "didn't know how to love" (to quote Chaska); I agree completely.  Funny how people don't recognize their own limitations and incapabilities and blame this on others.

In going back to the example that set off this thread, it is my opinion that the woman was driven by a lot of selfishness.   In my case (so many things happened to me in this sense it seems I can relate to every situation, oh dear...) I got pregnant once, and at one point in the pregnancy (fortunately not too far along) it was clear that the embryo had stopped growing (for uknown reasons).  With in-vitro, we were told the same thing happened.  No problem with fertilization itself, but after 5 days (which is the most an embryo can stand to grow outside the womb before attaching itself to the wall of the uterus) the embryos stopped growing again.  The pregnancy might have gone longer because the embryo actually attached that one time, and we were never told that we would not be able to bring a child to term (in fact, the doctor insisted we do), but just thinking that there was a possibility this child would be born with any kind of developmental problem made us stand back and not even think twice about adopting.  Simply not fair to the child in any way.

It is very interesting for me to read all your posts, and extremely insightful.  A good day to all...


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## JazzByChas

I will say this:

I have had both biological children and adopted children.  There, of course, are great joys in both.  My wife and I have adopted all of our children, because we were unable to conceive.  Now, I should also say that we adopted older children, 1) because babies, as Tim said, are harder to come by, and 2) because we don't have the energy to have energetic young ones around the house (we are both past 45).  Further, they are all from the foster care system, which is a vast subject all its own.

If I were younger, and had the chance to do it again, knowing what I know now, I would probably adopt again, even if my wife and I were able to conceive.  There is a great joy and satisfaction in providing a home and a real family to children who have been deprived.  And since foster children are much easier to adopt, and you get paid for adopting them (basically), it is the route I would take.  My daughter from a previous marriage was adopted from a foreign country, and there was much monetary expense, and well as political hassle to deal with.  

Considering how many children in this world have been deprived of a family for whatever (of a vast variety of) reasons, I think adoption is a very worthwhile enterprise.

I obviously, am *not* saying that parents should not try to produce their own biological offspring.  I heartily encourage that!  I am saying that, perhaps more families might want to consider adopting either along with their biological children, or when bio-children are *impossibility*, in lieu of bio-children.


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## JazzByChas

As an update to this discussion, I would like to say that my wife and I are now the proud parents of a "Brady Bunch" (6 children: 3 girls, 3 boys) most of whom are teen-agers.

Adoption is not an easy process, usually--it takes time, patience and in some cases, money.  And there is the bureaucratic red tape to deal with as well.  A great deal of it to be sure, to the point where it becomes very frustrating.  My wife and I have done our adopting through the foster system here in Hillsborough County, Florida, USA.  Suffice it to say that it at times can be a VERY frustrating process when dealing with county bureaucracies, especially when some of the people hardly know the rules of their own jobs.


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