# Sept 11...what now?



## rob.returns

HI to All...

Tomorrow will be Sept 11 on Western Time...

First, I would just like to know whats the mood in different states in the U.S. or what will the people be doing?

Second, how about other countries?

Whats the view of the American people about this matter. Thanks!


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## lauranazario

I will be saying a silent prayer for all the victims as well as for the misguided martyrs.
We must NOT forget these were ALL human beings.

Saludos,
LN


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## rob.returns

A moment of silence...a minute or two would do. I agree with you Mr. Moderator.


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## BasedowLives

i carried on my day as normal

btw, september 11th is almost over where i live

(10:06PM)


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## Isis

It was a day of prayer and contemplation...

As an American citizen with Asian ethnicity, this suggest that even though we see the United States as one if not the strongest country in the world, it seems that she is still incapable of stopping all attacts from the other world...


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## srsh

prayers for all the victims of sept 11 but also for all the victims of US`s attacks on Iraq...


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## Outsider

I suggest taking a look at this thread.


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## cuchuflete

srsh said:
			
		

> prayers for all the victims of sept 11 but also for all the victims of US`s attacks on Iraq...


Since we are being so lovingly ecumenical, how about a prayer for the hundreds of thousands tortured and killed by Saddam Hussein.  Surely they are as worthy as those you mention.  Or do we just pray for the victims of our political enemy of the week?


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## Whisky con ron

Why don't we also pray for the hundreds of thousands killed by the US government's policies, then? Palestine, anyone? What about the tortured and "desaparecidos" by US-backed dictatorships in LatinAmerica and Africa and the Middle Easter (yes, remember Saddam?).

Oh, and should we also pray for New Orleans or would this be also attacking the "political enemy of the week"?


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## Kräuter_Fee

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Since we are being so lovingly ecumenical, how about a prayer for the hundreds of thousands tortured and killed by Saddam Hussein. Surely they are as worthy as those you mention. Or do we just pray for the victims of our political enemy of the week?


 
What a nice way of distracting people from thinking about the genocide commited by the U.S.A.
Ok, let's pray for them too, and for the victims of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and for Bikinians whose Atoll was destroyed to try the nuclear bombs "for the good of the mankind"... or let's pray for the victims of the brutalities of the Saudi Arabian government, supported by the U.S.A. just to give a couple of example.


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## Whisky con ron

Oh, before I forget... Why don't we pray as well for the people murdered and tortured by Pinochet's government in Chile, on another 9/11 back in 1973.... Do we need to say who financed the coup?


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## panjandrum

And let's also pray for George Bush, the political enemy of the weak.


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## mireiaX

Kräuter_Fee said:
			
		

> What a nice way of distracting people from thinking about the genocide commited by the U.S.A.
> Ok, let's pray for them too, and for the victims of Hiroshima and Nagasaki...


Let us also práy for the victims of Gernika, bombed by the Nazis in collaboration with he who would become Spain's fascist leader for the next 36 years. Also for all the Catalans and Basques tortured and murdered by the Spanish government.



			
				Whisky con ron said:
			
		

> Why don't we also pray for the hundreds of thousands killed by the US government's policies, then?


When will people who blame the USA for almost *everything* that's wrong in the world taking *some* responsibilty for all the poverty, starvation, corruption, etc, in their countries, as well as for their inadequate governments?


I thought the first message was supposed to be about the people who died in 9/11 and not about those who live to hate USA.

Like the other person said, what about the hundreds of thousands of Kurds tortured and murdered by Sadam? Do they not deserve the same rememberance? Oh, I forgot, that was also becuse of the support from evíl USA, of course.


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## sean

this forum is generally very considerate. please show the class and level of sensitivity and sophistication that i have been so happy to have found here.


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## Kräuter_Fee

mireiaX said:
			
		

> [/color]Let us also práy for the victims of Gernika, bombed by the Nazis in collaboration with he who would become Spain's fascist leader for the next 36 years. Also for all the Catalans and Basques tortured and murdered by the Spanish government.


Yes let's pray for them, that was the result of Fascism (supported by the U.S.A. too, or who do you think that supported Franco?), a Fascism that still rules the world...



> When will people who blame the USA for almost *everything* that's wrong in the world taking *some* responsibilty for all the poverty, starvation, corruption, etc, in their countries, as well as for their inadequate governments?


When the U.S.A. stops causing destruction and making wars... 



> I thought the first message was supposed to be about the people who died in 9/11 and not about those who live to hate USA.


Nobody lives to hate the USA, we just can't ignore the facts. 9-11 is a touchy subject, we're not talking about an accident, we're talking about something else. Many don't believe in the Osama Bin Laden story... or that a plane fell in the Pentagon...



> Like the other person said, what about the hundreds of thousands of Kurds tortured and murdered by Sadam? Do they not deserve the same rememberance? Oh, I forgot, that was also becuse of the support from evíl USA, of course.


Of course they do, but you ignore the deaths caused by the U.S.A....


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## modgirl

Kräuter_Fee said:
			
		

> When the U.S.A. stops causing destruction and making wars...


 
I suggest you open a history book and read about the death and destruction that many leaders in other countries have committed -- and continue to commit today.

You're certainly entitled to your low opinion of the United States.  However, you're living in a vacuum if you think many other countries are somehow more innocent than the United States.

In the United States, we are very free to voice our opinions.  I only wish all other nations could say the same.


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## Kräuter_Fee

modgirl said:
			
		

> I suggest you open a history book and read about the death and destruction that many leaders in other countries have committed -- and continue to commit today.


I know that destruction isn't something exclusive of the U.S.A., that doesn't mean that we cannot critisize the U.S.A. for its crimes... Some people think that nobody can say something bad about the U.S.A., but we're not inventing anything when we say that the U.S.A. has commited many many murders.



> You're certainly entitled to your low opinion of the United States. However, you're living in a vacuum if you think many other countries are somehow more innocent than the United States.


I know that other countries are not innocent... who said I do? But the U.S.A. is much more powerful than the other countries and for that reason its crimes are also bigger.



> In the United States, we are very free to voice our opinions. I only wish all other nations could say the same.


Good for you, I'm glad you have a democracy (if you believe you do... it's fine), live with it and don't bother other countries with your wars. Live and let live, that's all I have to say.


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## modgirl

Kräuter_Fee said:
			
		

> I know that destruction isn't something exclusive of the U.S.A., that doesn't mean that we cannot critisize the U.S.A. for its crimes...




Many are simply fixated on the US and comment exclusively on the US. Your posts on the subject seem to place you in that category. 





> Live and let live, that's all I have to say.


 
I agree. Unfortunately, not everyone in the world is free to do so.  Do you know anyone who lived under Hussein?  I do.  Crimes to Hussein's own countrymen were much worse than what the US is doing.  That is not to say that I support the war in Iraq, but the impression is that Iraq was somehow just a fabulous country until the US came along.  Unfortunately, that delusion is just that.


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## GenJen54

> Originally posted by *Sean
> *this forum is generally very considerate. please show the class and level of sensitivity and sophistication that i have been so happy to have found here.


Thank you, sean, and if I may please add the following: 

For those who wish to continue bashing the United States and our political policies, I would ask that you please take your bashes to another thread - or open one of your own - and not continue ranting on a thread which was opened to ask for *specific opinions* about how citizens of the United States and other countries are and were commemorating the tragic events of September 11, 2001.

The tone of this thread is becoming increasingly irreverent and tasteless, and does no honor to the countless victims of 9/11 and other of the world's atrocities.


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## Kräuter_Fee

modgirl said:
			
		

> Many are simply fixated on the US and comment exclusively on the US. Your posts on the subject seem to place you in that category.


People usually focus on what affects them the most, I could also criticize the King of Swaziland or Berlusconi or anyone, but nowadays people hear about the U.S.A. all the time and this country's decisions affect the world more than any other country's... If you think I'm fixated on the USA, maybe, but still, I am not saying lies. The fact that I don't talk about other countries on this thread doesn't mean that I don't do it on my everydaylife.



> I agree. Unfortunately, not everyone in the world is free to do so. Do you know anyone who lived under Hussein? I do. Crimes to Hussein's own countrymen were much worse than what the US is doing. That is not to say that I support the war in Iraq, but the impression is that Iraq was somehow just a fabulous country until the US came along. Unfortunately, that delusion is just that.


I have also a very good Palestinian friend who live under Sharon... and what do you think that live for them is? Saddam was not the only criminal on Earth.
As much as you say that I am fixated on the USA, you guys are fixated on Saddam. Have you actually thought that Saddam is just one more, dictatorships are all over the world. Both my parents lived under dictatorships, my mom starved like an African kid (in Spain yes)... 
What is so special about Saddam? Why not instead of spending so many billions on weapons and sacrifing the life of young American soldiers doesn't the government of the U.S.A. spend that money on helping people, on medicine, food or building schools or hospitals instead of bombing them? Who will actually believe the story that the U.S.A. wanted to help Iraqis! Is there anyone on the Earth's surface that actually believes that!?


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## Kräuter_Fee

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> The tone of this thread is becoming increasingly irreverent and tasteless, and does no honor to the countless victims of 9/11 and other of the world's atrocities.


 
I didn't understand it that way. The starter of the thread posed a question: "what now" and asked Americans and non-Americans what their/our mood is now. I think the post wasn't only to honor the victims but to talk about what happens afterwards.

I don't see this as bashing (I find the word just too hard), it's criticizing yes, but it's a consequence... you cannot ask people to ignore the facts. We are hurt for what is happening in the world, if you can talk about the 9/11 victims let us talk about the victims of Afghanistan and Iraq (which are many more) and just as innocent as the ones in WTC.


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## GenJen54

> Originally posted by *Krauter Fëe*
> I didn't understand it that way. The starter of the thread posed a question: "what now" and asked Americans and non-Americans what their/our mood is now. I think the post wasn't only to honor the victims but to talk about what happens afterwards.


Hmmmm....to borrow Rob.Return's words exactly: Tomorrow will be Sept 11 on Western Time...First, I would just like to know whats the mood in different states in the U.S. or *what will the people be doing*?

 He was speaking about how the American people and others would be commemorating the occasion. 
 


> You cannot ask people to ignore the facts. We are hurt for what is happening in the world, if you can talk about the 9/11 victims let us talk about the victims of Afghanistan and Iraq (which are many more) and just as innocent as the ones in WTC.


 Yes, let's do talk about them. Let's talk about life of the Afgani women under Taliban control before the United States got rid of the Taliban. Let's talk about the torture and rape and ethnic genocide that occurred during Sadaam's dictatorship. 

While I will agree the intent of the current administration for entiring Iraq was questionable at best, can you not say that life - even with its current problems - does not have its advantages?


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## rob.returns

C'mon people! let's all be civilize. Lets have a heart and soul i was talking bout 9/11 and its commemoration(im just curious). It's a terrorist attack that is despicable and very tragic.

Krauter fee and Modgirl, you could open up another forum for your discussion on US BASHING..its there. Let us all have a heart for the victims. I agree with others that this forum is becoming not itself. Lets just pray for the victims of that Attack and nothing more..


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## GenJen54

Thank you, Rob. 

And now to get us back on track...

To be honest, while I believe no one has certainly forgotten what happened four years ago, the current tragedy of Katrina is of more immediate concern to most of those in the U.S., and has dominated the airwaves over the past two weeks. 

This should in no way diminish the feelings we should have for the victims and families of 9/11 who continue to suffer great heartache. 

Ceremonies were held in New York, the Pentagon, and at the Pennsylvania crash site of the third airplane. In New York, at least, brothers and sisters of those who perished read their names. I am not certain what other specific ceremonies were held.

With tragedies such as these, we can and never will forget. However, the shock and sadness, at least for those who did not suffer personal loss, do diminish over time. My state is far removed from NYC, but we suffered our own tragedy in 1995 when 169 people, including 19 children, were killed by a domestic terrorist. You cannot reasonably compare one tragedy to another, but part of recovering is moving on with life. My city commemorates our tragedy once a year, but the ceremonies now focus on growth and moving forward as much as they do on remembering.


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## rob.returns

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> With tragedies such as these, we can and never will forget. However, the shock and sadness, at least for those who did not suffer personal loss, do diminish over time. My state is far removed from NYC, but we suffered our own tragedy in 1995 when 169 people, including 19 children, were killed by a domestic terrorist. You cannot reasonably compare one tragedy to another, but part of recovering is moving on with life. My city commemorates our tragedy once a year, but the ceremonies now focus on growth and moving forward as much as they do on remembering.


 
Oh the Oklahoma Bombing. I forgot GenJen54, when did that happen? And I forgot the name of the culprit. Pardon me for losing a bit of my memory.


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## ladykb

As much as i hate to say this.... sept. 11th is starting to become just another day for me.


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## Outsider

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> Hmmmm....to borrow Rob.Return's words exactly: Tomorrow will be Sept 11 on Western Time...First, I would just like to know whats the mood in different states in the U.S. or *what will the people be doing*?
> 
> He was speaking about how the American people and others would be commemorating the occasion.


You left out his _other words_: 



			
				rob.returns said:
			
		

> *Second, how about other countries?
> 
> Whats the view of the American people about this matter. Thanks!*


It's not clear whether he was asking for the opinion of Americans about other countries, or for the opinion of people from other countries on (the American) 9/11. I took it as the latter, myself.


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## GenJen54

> Originally posted by *Outsider*It's not clear whether he was asking for the opinion of Americans about other countries, or for the opinion of people from other countries on (the American) 9/11. I took it as the latter, myself.


Thankfully, Rob himself has now clarified that for all of us. (Post #25)


> Originally posted by *LadyKB*
> As much as i hate to say this.... sept. 11th is starting to become just another day for me.


I think this is normal, especially when you are far-removed from the situation and did not know anyone personally involved. If we continued to let events such as these mar our every-day lives, the terrorists would win. We have to go on as a means of honoring the victims. 

Personally, I stop and think about where I was on that day, and take a moment to think of the victims, but that is about it. I do know one woman whose son was killed in 9/11, but other than that, have no personal connection to it. 

I think more often of April 19, 1995, when the Oklahoma City bombing occurred. Of course, I know several people who lost friends and/or family members in this event. Others I know either survived or had very close calls.

I work downtown so pass by the memorial several times a week. Of course I think about it when I drive by and see the people gathered there, still posting personal items and mementos along the "wall of rememberance." What I think about most, however, how amazed I am that even ten years after the fact, others still come to visit, and see and honor those who were lost. 

Rob, to answer your question, the "culprit's" name was Timothy McVeigh.


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## Honeylhanz

I spend 5 mins inside my room praying for all the victims.


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## Jonegy

Honeylhanz said:
			
		

> I spend 5 mins inside my room praying for all the victims.


 
I hope you include the victims of the IRA bombings in Manchester, Birmingham and London a few years earlier. Financed mainly by the US dollar (NORAID) and with the instigators being invited to the St Paddy's Day parades in NY and entertained by none other than the President.

What a funny old world we live in.


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## cuchuflete

Sadly, Jonegy is at least partly correct.  But this is a queer case in which the US government is on the side of the anti-IRA British government, while many US citizens of Irish descent have contributed funds to the murderers.  Of course who is a murderer and who is an oppressed freedom fighter are endlessly debated while the bloodshed goes on.
The victims don't get to join in the debate, and deserve our prayers.


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## BasedowLives

Jonegy said:
			
		

> I hope you include the victims of the IRA bombings in Manchester, Birmingham and London a few years earlier. Financed mainly by the US dollar (NORAID) and with the instigators being invited to the St Paddy's Day parades in NY and entertained by none other than the President.
> 
> What a funny old world we live in.



under that logic, why don't we pray for those who died in the crusades as well?

i admit i am quite ignorant to the dates of actions of the IRA, but was there one massive attack on september 11th by the IRA as well?

I am merely playing the antagonizing part of devils advocate.  Sept 11th is just a normal day for me.


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## Mariaguadalupe

Tragedy is tragedy wherever it happens, be it NYC, New Orleans, Afghanistan, India or any other place. None can be more tragic than other; it just affects us individuals different ways. One tragedy hits home nearer than the other one. One affects us _econimically_ more than another one. We'll probably remember that one the most. Who can say which tragedy was more devasting than the other one? The tsunami? Katrina? Who knows? Who can say which country deserves more pity than the other? 

All we can do, is pray, if you're religious, or hope for the best and for man to righten his "wicked ways".


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## srsh

just a question...

would USA be willing to "help" Iraq if there wasnt oil there?

just wondering...

im sure people in the US have a great heart, no doubt about that, what i dont like is their goverment.


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## BasedowLives

srsh said:
			
		

> just a question...
> 
> would USA be willing to "help" Iraq if there wasnt oil there?
> 
> just wondering...
> 
> im sure people in the US have a great heart, no doubt about that, what i dont like is their goverment.



if it wasn't in our best interests economically, i doubt that we'd go there.

Are we doing anything about the other dictatorships in the world?  not really.


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## modgirl

srsh said:
			
		

> what i dont like is their goverment.


 
The capitalist society or the decisions that have come out of Washington?


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## srsh

im talking about the decisions that have come out of Washington.

as an example of what I mean, I heard last night Bush saying that even when they are right now at the worst natural disaster (New Orleans), they will keep investing in the war of Iraq, because "people of the US must not forget we are fighting a war, and there are priorities"

Excuse me????? priorities higher than saving their own citizens in New Orleans? I just dont get it...


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## Kräuter_Fee

BasedowLives said:
			
		

> under that logic, why don't we pray for those who died in the crusades as well?
> 
> i admit i am quite ignorant to the dates of actions of the IRA, but was there one massive attack on september 11th by the IRA as well?


 
What he meant is that everyone makes a big fuss over Sep 11 as if it had been the most horrible thing that has always happened. Nobody mentions any other victims like the victims of Sep 11, it looks like people love the dramma or something...


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## Kräuter_Fee

srsh said:
			
		

> im talking about the decisions that have come out of Washington.


 
I don't want to blame the people but the government didn't get to the White House without help... it's easy to blame 5 idiots, the politicians, and say nobody else is innocent. The politicians are definitely not innocent, but you can't ignore why they're there...  and I'm not saying this only for the U.S.A. but for all the democracies in the world, the governments are to blame but so are the ones who voted for them.


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## cuchuflete

BasedowLives said:
			
		

> I am merely playing the antagonizing part of devils advocate.  Sept 11th is just a normal day for me.


You may choose to call me the devil incarnate for bringing this to your attention, but Sept. 11th is a most horrifyingly abnormal day for *you.

*The events of that day led a government to pass a law, popularly known as the patriot act, that has denied *you* some basic rights granted you by your constitution.  Please read it...which most members of Congress did not do before voting for it, and then tell us that the 11th of Sept. is a normal day.


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## panjandrum

It is sad that this thread has wandered off into the realm of competitive grief.
My loss is not greater than your loss.
There is no yardstick we can use for grief.
I remember vividly the day of "the Omagh bomb".
As a result of that day, many people from a small town died.
If a tragedy on the same scale happened in London, 11,000 would die.
If a tragedy on the same scale happened in New York, 30,000 would die.
How pointless that arithmetic is.

September 11 was the anniversary of many deaths.
It is not necessary, or appropriate, to compare and contrast this with other similar, or fundamentally different tragedies. Each of them should have, and has, their own place.

_"Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankind; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."_


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## BasedowLives

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> You may choose to call me the devil incarnate for bringing this to your attention, but Sept. 11th is a most horrifyingly abnormal day for *you.
> 
> *The events of that day led a government to pass a law, popularly known as the patriot act, that has denied *you* some basic rights granted you by your constitution. Please read it...which most members of Congress did not do before voting for it, and then tell us that the 11th of Sept. is a normal day.



i know what the patriot act is.  i am against it, as its an intrusion into personal space.

The fact remains.  I did everything on september 11th this year that i would've on any other day.  basically just too consumed by schoolwork and getting a job.  

Am i supposed to let the fact that there exists such a thing as the Patriot Act (which i cannot do anything about) hamper my day?


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## Ro79

9-11 was awful, I won´t argue that but I´m afraid we can´t ignore the facts. That´s why I believe many of us here are expressing our feelings towards US foreign politics. Whatever they do up there has serious consequences around the globe so we are entitled to say it like it is.


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## modgirl

panjandrum said:
			
		

> It is not necessary, or appropriate, to compare and contrast this with other similar, or fundamentally different tragedies. Each of them should have, and has, their own place.


 
Oh, but we do love to compare misery and unfortunate circumstances!


Jack: I had to walk a mile every day to school.

Jill: I had to walk a mile in deep snow every day to school.

Jack: I had to walk a mile with no shoes every day to school.

Jill: I had to walk a mile in deep snow every day to school. And, I did it with a broken foot.

Jack: Oh, that's nothing. I had to........


In short, *my* misery is much worse than *yours*!


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## panjandrum

modgirl said:
			
		

> Oh, but we do love to compare misery and unfortunate circumstances!
> 
> In short, *my* misery is much worse than *yours*!


 Have you seen - and are you referring to - the relevant Monty Python sketch?


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## rob.returns

Such a lame comparison, got any better ones..shoes, snow, walk, cannot be compared to 11,000 or 3,000 people dying.




			
				modgirl said:
			
		

> Oh, but we do love to compare misery and unfortunate circumstances!
> 
> 
> Jack: I had to walk a mile every day to school.
> 
> Jill: I had to walk a mile in deep snow every day to school.
> 
> Jack: I had to walk a mile with no shoes every day to school.
> 
> Jill: I had to walk a mile in deep snow every day to school. And, I did it with a broken foot.
> 
> Jack: Oh, that's nothing. I had to........
> 
> 
> In short, *my* misery is much worse than *yours*!


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## modgirl

rob.returns said:
			
		

> Such a lame comparison


 
It's unfortunate that the message flew over your head.  Perhaps one day you'll understand it.


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## panjandrum

Rob - you miss the point - which is that it is human nature to claim that my suffering, my grief is more profound than yours, and how can you possibly claim to understand or share my pain.

I am certain that modgirl didn't make the comparison you suggest.


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## Augusto-Cesar

Since you brought up Sharon,
_
Crauterus Feedus_... I agree, not only one dictator or criminal politician on this earth. All guilty as charged.
Yes I love the USA because I live in this country, but I am not blinded by the arrogance and "blinded patriotism" some of my fellow countrymen display when their "Presidente" tells them that we are actually safer by dropping bombs on a country who never attacked us. 
*Freedom without dissent and Loyalty without question. Viva Bush right?*

Furthermore, dare not say a word about Sharon you just might be labeled an anti-Semite! 


PS: I forgot to mention that in many countries around the world, even the dead are honored with "All Saints Day" or "Día de los Muertos" or "All Hallows Eve". It's just easier to remember them on one day than to have our little memorials for 3000 or so who died on a certain day of a certain year of a certain country/ies. By having a "day of the dead" we avoid all the conflicts of deciding who is more worthy of our prayers and remembrances don't you all agree.

I, Your great *Emperor Augustus-Cesar* said this!


			
				Kräuter_Fee said:
			
		

> People usually focus on what affects them the most, I could also criticize the King of Swaziland or Berlusconi or anyone, but nowadays people hear about the U.S.A. all the time and this country's decisions affect the world more than any other country's... If you think I'm fixated on the USA, maybe, but still, I am not saying lies. The fact that I don't talk about other countries on this thread doesn't mean that I don't do it on my everydaylife.
> 
> 
> I have also a very good Palestinian friend who live under Sharon... and what do you think that live for them is? Saddam was not the only criminal on Earth.
> As much as you say that I am fixated on the USA, you guys are fixated on Saddam. Have you actually thought that Saddam is just one more, dictatorships are all over the world. Both my parents lived under dictatorships, my mom starved like an African kid (in Spain yes)...
> What is so special about Saddam? Why not instead of spending so many billions on weapons and sacrifing the life of young American soldiers doesn't the government of the U.S.A. spend that money on helping people, on medicine, food or building schools or hospitals instead of bombing them? Who will actually believe the story that the U.S.A. wanted to help Iraqis! Is there anyone on the Earth's surface that actually believes that!?


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## Kräuter_Fee

Augusto-Cesar said:
			
		

> Since you brought up Sharon,
> 
> _Crauterus Feedus_... I agree, not only one dictator or criminal politician on this earth. All guilty as charged.
> Yes I love the USA because I live in this country, but I am not blinded by the arrogance and "blinded patriotism" some of my fellow countrymen display when their "Presidente" tells them that we are actually safer by dropping bombs on a country who never attacked us.
> *Freedom without dissent and Loyalty without question. Viva Bush right?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Furthermore, dare not say a word about Sharon you just might be labeled an anti-Semite!
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, of course!!! When someone has power, then there's nothing you can say against them. In Germany they talk the whole day about the jews and the jews and the jews in the 2nd World War, but they don't mention anyone else... as if they had been the only victims...
> The jews have a lot of power... but I still have to say: I *hate *Sharon.
Click to expand...


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## modgirl

Augusto-Cesar said:
			
		

> Furthermore, dare not say a word about Sharon you just might be labeled an anti-Semite!


 
You've mentioned something similar in a different thread.  My impression is that Sharon and Israel are untouchables to people you know.  That's very unfortunate, because *everyone* should be questioned and made accountable.  Just because someone speaks against someone who happens to be Jewish, the speaker is not automatically an Anti-Semite!  And just because someone speaks against someone who happens to be black, the speaker is not automatically a racist!  Unfortunately, however, the US is becoming so "politically correct" that we are making a few subjects above reproach, and we're going to deeply regret it if we don't snap out of that mode soon.


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## Augusto-Cesar

_I, *Augustus-Caesar, the great Emperor *
 Issue this Online EDICT: Remember The Dead!_ 
I Augustus-Caesar, by decree of the Senate and People of Rome (SPQR) order everyone who reads this to stop and think about those who died and have left us behind. Do not say a prayer for them, as they are already gone and prayers do no good in the afterlife. But remember them nonetheless to keep their memory alive. Be it a man or a woman, child or adult, old or young, knowing and ignorant, rich or poor, remember them anywhere and everywhere at this point in time.
*
 Augustus-Caesar Imperator 
 SEPT. XV.MMV*


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## Everness

The terrorists will successfully attack the continental US again. It's not a matter of if but of when this will happen. The fact that the Pentagon is updating the nuclear doctrine to allow pre-emptive strikes probably indicates that Al Qaeda is about to hit us again. See this article  

Americans should be prepared for this mentally. It's impossible to prevent this from happening. People are going to die. We are surely going to go again through the different phases of grief work. But one thing shouldn't happen this time. We shouldn't allow this or any administration to manipulate our natural feelings of fear, anger and helplessness in order to launch another crazy and insane military crusade. The Bush administration did it once and today's news out of Iraq demonstrate that it was the wrong thing to do. A society full of fear gave the government the green light. Like it or not, by commission or omission, we were Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld's accomplices.  

I hope we learned the lesson from our first 9/11 and we don't allow strong feelings of fear and anger to compromise our critical thinking....


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## Everness

Well, well... Mitt has an interesting idea to prevent further 9/11s. 

_Governor Mitt Romney raised the prospect of wiretapping mosques and conducting surveillance of foreign students in Massachusetts, as he issued a broad call yesterday for the federal government to devote far more money and attention to domestic intelligence gathering._

While we are discussing shitty ideas, what about wiretapping all bathrooms across America? 

http://www.boston.com/news/local/ma...09/15/wiretap_mosques_romney_suggests?mode=PF


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## cuchuflete

BasedowLives said:
			
		

> Am i supposed to let the fact that there exists such a thing as the Patriot Act (*which i cannot do anything about*) hamper my day?



Of course you shouldn't let it hamper your day, your congress has already done that for you, using 9-11 as a pretext.  Let's make a deal...you stop preaching idealism at whoever reads your posts, and then say you cannot do anything..  In return, I will abstain from pointing out how useless idealism is without action to move towards the ideal.


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## cuchuflete

Everness said:
			
		

> I wonder if the fact that he's a Mormon has anything to do with his proposal... While we are discussing shitty ideas, what about wiretapping all bathrooms across America?
> 
> http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2005/09/15/wiretap_mosques_romney_suggests?mode=PF



I wonder if people who take cheap shots at another's religion are worth replying to, even if only to tell them to stop pretending to dislike authoritarian regimes.  

Respect is hard earned, and easily squandered.


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## modgirl

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Let's make a deal...you stop preaching idealism at whoever reads your posts, and then say you cannot do anything.. In return, I will abstain from pointing out how useless idealism is without action to move towards the ideal.


 


			
				cuchuflete said:
			
		

> I wonder if people who take cheap shots at another's religion are worth replying to, even if only to tell them to stop pretending to dislike authoritarian regimes.


 

We're wading into dangerous territory here, Cuchu, because I'm actually swimming in the whirlpools of respect and admiration for you.

Quick -- say something I can attack!


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## Swettenham

panjandrum said:
			
		

> _"Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankind; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."_


"Destroy one life and you destroy the world entire.  Save one life, and you save the world."


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## Everness

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> I wonder if people who take cheap shots at another's religion are worth replying to, even if only to tell them to stop pretending to dislike authoritarian regimes.
> 
> Respect is hard earned, and easily squandered.



Not only you found....


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## Swettenham

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Since we are being so lovingly ecumenical, how about a prayer for the hundreds of thousands tortured and killed by Saddam Hussein.  Surely they are as worthy as those you mention.  Or do we just pray for the victims of our political enemy of the week?


Don't forget Zarqawi.  This week, the terrorists posted ads for new job openings to attract a crowd of Iraqis desparate for work.  When the job-seekers convened, bombs exploded and about 160 innocents were killed.  In other news, when Zarqawi ordered all Shias to leave Ramadi a few weeks ago, Sunni citizens took arms and battled to defend the Shia minority, driving off the terrorists.  Commented one citizen, "we have had enough of [Zarqawi's] nonsense."

I'm sorry.  Am I drawing attention away from America's "genocide?"


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## Swettenham

rob.returns said:
			
		

> HI to All...
> 
> Tomorrow will be Sept 11 on Western Time...
> 
> First, I would just like to know whats the mood in different states in the U.S. or what will the people be doing?
> 
> Second, how about other countries?
> 
> Whats the view of the American people about this matter. Thanks!


Casualties of war become more vividly the citizens they were.  Casualties of terrorism join a broader community of victims.  People are currently being massacred in Iraq by the same organization that carried out 9/11.  When will they have a moment of silence?


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## Augusto-Cesar

Hello:

Even though I don't agree with wiretapping anyone or anything for the sake of following some warmonger's path to glory and promise of a "safer America", the fact remains that it is not Christians, Jews or Buddhists who are threatening the civilized world with terrorist acts and suicide bombings. But if you say that, then you are obviously anti-Muslim. It's not about being anti-anything, but since when do you see Christians (I can only relate to Christians since I live in the Western world) blowing each other in the name of Jesus for the sake of their cause. I think we moved past that some 300+ years ago when we converted anyone and expulsed any who chose not to convert. And yes, that is not to say that we don't have our own cuckoos, but our cuckoos are kept under control. Don't bite the hand that feeds you!


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## Swettenham

Augusto-Cesar said:
			
		

> I think we moved past that some 300+ years ago when we converted anyone and expulsed any who chose not to convert.


You're missing your own point.



			
				Augusto-Cesar said:
			
		

> And yes, that is not to say that we don't have our own cuckoos, but our cuckoos are kept under control.


Are they?  Or are we "following some warmonger's path to glory?"


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## Everness

Augusto-Cesar said:
			
		

> Hello:
> 
> Even though I don't agree with wiretapping anyone or anything for the sake of following some warmonger's path to glory and promise of a "safer America", the fact remains that it is not Christians, Jews or Buddhists who are threatening the civilized world with terrorist acts and suicide bombings. But if you say that, then you are obviously anti-Muslim. It's not about being anti-anything, *but since when do you see Christians (I can only relate to Christians since I live in the Western world) blowing each other in the name of Jesus for the sake of their cause. * I think we moved past that some 300+ years ago when we converted anyone and expulsed any who chose not to convert. And yes, that is not to say that we don't have our own cuckoos, but our cuckoos are kept under control. Don't bite the hand that feeds you!



Augusto-Cesar, I think you would benefit from reading this article. It's unashamedly biased but it also contains some interesting statements uttered by our presi.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20031222/stam

Para muestra vale un botón:

_When he (Bush) appeared in a flight suit aboard the aircraft carrier Abraham Lincoln, he said to the troops: "And wherever you go, you carry a message of hope--a message that is ancient and ever new. In the words of the prophet Isaiah, 'To the captives, come out! to those who are in darkness, be free!'" _ 

¿Necesito aclarar algo más?

PD: I hate to admit it but Cuchu was right when I made a connection between Mitt's decision to wiretap mosques and his Mormonism. Presbyterians know better. I edited both posts.


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## cuchuflete

> It's not about being anti-anything, but since when do you see Christians (I can only relate to Christians since I live in the Western world) blowing each other in the name of Jesus for the sake of their cause.


 Northern Ireland, for one.


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## Everness

I'm sorry but I forgot to complete Bush's sermon:

_When he appeared in a flight suit aboard the aircraft carrier Abraham Lincoln, he said to the troops: "And wherever you go, you carry a message of hope--a message that is ancient and ever new. In the words of the prophet Isaiah, 'To the captives, come out! to those who are in darkness. And while you are there, carrying the message of hope, drop as many 10,000-ton bombs as possible. God Speed!"_


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## Swettenham

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Northern Ireland, for one.


Didn't the IRA very recently renounce violence?


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## panjandrum

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Northern Ireland, for one.


Point accepted. 
I really don't want to get into this kind of dialogue, it isn't why I'm here - but taking into account some of the statements made already I would like to elaborate just a little.

People all-too-readily condemn an entire race, religion, country - whatever, for the actions that are carried out by some in the name of that race, religion, country.

I have lived inside a supposedly religious conflict that supposedly involved two variants of Christianity. I can assure you that there have always been many, from both variants, working together to limit the damage.

It is much too easy to oversimplify from a distance. Please take care.

PS: This comment is based on the assumption that Augusto-Cesar left out the "up" in "... blowing each other up ...".  My comment would be different if he meant what he said.


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## BasedowLives

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Northern Ireland, for one.



plus crusades and manifest destiny


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## GenJen54

> Originally posted by *Augusto-Cesar*
> but since when do you see Christians (I can only relate to Christians since I live in the Western world) blowing each other in the name of Jesus for the sake of their cause.


In addition to the responses of other posters, what about the bombing of abortion clinics in the name of Jesus? US Senator Tom Coburn wants to create a law that would impose the death penalty automatically on any doctor caught performing abortions. Praise be to God!

Regardless of what one thinks of the topic (and I am not advocating discussing it), it is another example of where Christians kill or advocate killing in the name of their faith.


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## panjandrum

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> [...]Regardless of what one thinks of the topic (and I am not advocating discussing it), it is another example of where Christians kill or advocate killing in the name of their faith.


There you go.  It is very dangerous to assume that because some bunch of whackos somewhere (pick the set of your choice) claim to be True-Blue-Huists and also commit unspeakable acts, all True-Blue-Huists are whackos.


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## Everness

panjandrum said:
			
		

> There you go.  It is very dangerous to assume that because some bunch of whackos somewhere (pick the set of your choice) claim to be True-Blue-Huists and also commit unspeakable acts, all True-Blue-Huists are whackos.



Same thing happens with Islam. 

Governor Romney's suggestion that we wiretap mosques doesn't discriminate between mosques that could be harboring terrorists and/or teaching hate and the rest of the mosques that are attended by peaceful, law-abiding Muslims. Mitt's recommendation perpetuates the myth that all  Muslims are violent people. He is just like W who once said, "I don't do nuances."

Please don't forget that Mitt is already governor of Massachusetts and that he wants to become Presidente de los Estados Unidos de Norteamérica. (Scary, uh?) What he's trying to do is to make himself palatable to conservative audiences. Interesting enough, the fact that he is a Mormom raises eyebrows among Evangelicals. Most consider Mormonism a cult.


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## cuchuflete

I completely agree with you.  I've highlighted a few of the key words... 





			
				panjandrum said:
			
		

> People all-too-readily condemn an entire race, religion, country - whatever, for the actions that are carried out by some* in the name of* that race, religion, country.
> I have lived inside a *supposedly religious* conflict that *supposedly* involved two variants of Christianity.



There are many other examples where one needn't say "supposedly". Colonialism springs to mind.  Propelled by arrogance and ignorance, (and lots of economic greed?) colonial powers imposed, often at the cost of tens or even hundreds of thousands of lives, their 'superior' religions, on people with different beliefs. These bestowers of 'truth' were in large part 'enlightened' Christians, and the activities did take place within the last 300 years.


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## Big Bob

their 'superior' religions, on people with different beliefs. These bestowers of 'truth' were in large part 'enlightened' Christians, and the activities did take place within the last 300 years.

so let me get this straight you think that the Christians were the only people that did this mean and unjust this to push their beliefs onto some one not from their culture. Well you should open a history book and look at the Greeks and the Persians then look at the Romans and the Gauls. If you want a more upto date look at this read something about what Hitler *made* his people do for him. You can also look what the wonderful Muslims did if you did not jion their religion.

Moving on may you all please stop ranting and raving of how America messed up in life. I would like to state that "let he who is with out sin cast the first stone". so before you say that America dropping the Atom bomb on Japan was a bad thing look at it if we did not (of course this requires some of you to look it up, but look at the terrian(sp?) of Japan it favors the defender , Americans die, get some history books they will help you understand).


should we not go back to what the thread said?

As a American I get up a and sigh hopping that it will not happen again and pray it will not be done to other countries. of course this is wishful thinking it is the only thing I can do




P.S. forgive me for my spelling errors and grammer mistakes


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