# subjunctive



## kate123

Hello,
When are you supposed to use the subjunctive present (sois)
and the subjunctive imperfect (fusse) of être?

I'd be very grateful for clear example sentences

Thank you


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## Manwell

Hi,

The subjonctif present is used quiet often as in:
"I need to be on time" = "Il faut que je *sois* à l'heure"
or
"However that may be..."  =  "Quoi qu'il en *soit*"

The subjonctif imperfect is rarely used. One would rather use the subjonctif Past than the subjonctif imperfect

You would use subj. imperfect to speak in an old fashionned way as in:
"However that may have been..."  =  "Quoi qu'il en *fusse*"
it is now more common to use sujonctif past i.e.  " Quoi qu'il en *ait été*", 

Hope this helps.


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## kate123

thank you ~~~~


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## carolineR

tu trouveras qqs explications ici : http://www.synapse-fr.com/manuels/QUE_INDSUB.htm


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## kate123

thank you caroline this is a great site


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## timpeac

Manwell said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> The subjonctif present is used quiet often as in:
> "I need to be on time" = "Il faut que je *sois* à l'heure"
> or
> "However that may be..." = "Quoi qu'il en *soit*"
> 
> The subjonctif imperfect is rarely used. One would rather use the subjonctif Past than the subjonctif imperfect
> 
> You would use subj. imperfect to speak in an old fashionned way as in:
> "However that may have been..." = "Quoi qu'il en *fusse*"
> it is now more common to use sujonctif past i.e. " Quoi qu'il en *ait été*",
> 
> Hope this helps.


 
"fusse" is the "je" form. It should be "Quoi qu'il en fût".


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## emma42

Do people often use the subjunctive past "Quoiqu'il en ait été"?  or would the indicative perfect be used as well (I know that's "ungrammatical", but I wondered if it was in common usage nowadays) - "Quoi qui'il en a été"?


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## timpeac

emma42 said:
			
		

> Do people often use the subjunctive past "Quoiqu'il en ait été"? or would the indicative perfect be used as well (I know that's "ungrammatical", but I wondered if it was in common usage nowadays) - "Quoi qui'il en a été"?


Do you mean because it is in the past you might not need the subjunctive because it's more concrete? I wouldn't have thought that would make a difference because the sense is "whatever the case might have been" and so just as "unsure" as "whatever the case may be".


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## emma42

No, I didn't mean that, Tim.  I meant that, so as to avoid using the imperfect subjunctive, do people sometimes just use the perfect indicative (or the imperfect indicative - should have said that in the previous post).  Nothing to do with "mood" just current usage to avoid imp. subj.


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## LV4-26

emma42 said:
			
		

> No, I didn't mean that, Tim. I meant that, so as to avoid using the imperfect subjunctive, do people sometimes just use the perfect indicative (or the imperfect indicative - should have said that in the previous post). Nothing to do with "mood" just current usage to avoid imp. subj.


 1)
Nobody ever uses the imperfect subjunctive in a spoken conversation except
- as a joke
- some very rare persons seriously.

So we always avoid it. 
I don't think the past subjunctive can ever replace the imperfect (your post #7).
_Il se rendit à l'aéroport car son patron avait exigé qu'il prît l'avion._
Here
_qu'il ait pris l'avion_ wouldn't mean the same...and wouldn't make sense in fact.

2)
We even avoid the past subjunctive quite often
I would generally say
_Je ne pense pas qu'il est parti_
to some friends or relatives

However, talking to my boss or having a more formal conversation, I would sure say
_Je ne pense pas qu'il soit parti

_Now, that may be just me. Other French speaking forer@s may be more formal than I am even in everyday conversations.

But, whatever the situation, I would never say
_Je ne pensais pas qu'il fût parti

3)
_In literature, however, the imperfect subjunctive (together with the French simple past - je ne pensai pas -) is welcome and considered normal.

An excerpt from a writer who's not particularly formal


> Selon elle, ces quelques jours de séparation m'avaient à coup sûr mis dans un tel état qu'elle comprenait fort bien mon impatience et acceptait que nous le *fissions *sans attendre, là, debout ou à quatre pattes sur le sol, c'est moi qui voyais.


 P. Djian -_ Vers chez les blancs._


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## emma42

Thanks LV4.  I understand everything you have said, but I am still unclear.  If you want to express something in the imperfect after, say, bien que, would you normally use the imperfect indicative in speech?


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## Sanda

Oops, I meant to quote LV4-26 here:
2)
We even avoid the past subjunctive quite often
I would generally say
_Je ne pense pas qu'il est parti_
to some friends or relatives

I would definitely not avoid the subjunctive here, though some people do  ; it really sounds wrong to me.


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## emma42

So, Sanda, how would you say "Bien qu'il aimât" (bêêêêrk!) in speech?


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## Sanda

emma42 said:
			
		

> Thanks LV4.  I understand everything you have said, but I am still unclear.  If you want to express something in the imperfect after, say, bien que, would you normally use the imperfect indicative in speech?



I'm not good at explaining such matters, but I'll be brave and try something:

Présent + subj. présent  "On sent sa présence, bien qu'elle ne soit pas là" - I would say and write this.
Imparfait + imparfait du subj.  "On sentait sa présence, bien qu'elle ne fût pas là" - I could write (registre soutenu quand même), but wouldn't say it.

But suppose I wanted to convey that meaning all the same in a conversation: I'd probably cheat (is it just me?  ) to avoid a structure that calls for a subjunctive, saying for instance:
"On sentait sa présence, alors qu'elle n'était même pas là"
"On sentait sa présence, et pourtant elle n'était pas là"
"Elle n'était pas là mais on sentait malgré tout sa présence"
"Elle n'était pas là mais on sentait tout de même sa présence"
...

I hope this is not too confusing, and apologise if it is  (sweat, sweat).


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## emma42

Ah, Sanda!  Merci, merci!  C'est clair.  Avoid constructions that call for the imperfect subjunctive.  Cela m'aide beaucoup.  Ne sues plus.


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## Aupick

I love the explanations in this thread, which tell us so much more than the grammar books ever do.  

Can I add my own queries? I've come across the following (in Céline yet again - sorry!):
- Je veux qu’il était chez lui... qu’il était né 6 rue Maubel
which really shocks me, after all that work learning the subjunctive. Of course Céline is known for writing in an oral style, as if he were speaking, and even for exaggerating that oral style. Does this shock any of the natives, or might you find yourselves saying it (amongst friends, at least)?

Elsewhere he even avoids the present subjunctive:
- bien que c’est pas dans ses habitudes...
- Lui il croit pas que c’est la vraie nièce !...
Is this as shocking to the natives as they are to me?


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## Sanda

Aupick said:
			
		

> I love the explanations in this thread, which tell us so much more than the grammar books ever do.
> 
> Can I add my own queries? I've come across the following (in Céline yet again - sorry!):
> - Je veux qu’il était chez lui... qu’il était né 6 rue Maubel
> which really shocks me, after all that work learning the subjunctive. Of course Céline is known for writing in an oral style, as if he were speaking, and even for exaggerating that oral style. Does this shock any of the natives, or might you find yourselves saying it (amongst friends, at least)?
> 
> Elsewhere he even avoids the present subjunctive:
> - bien que c’est pas dans ses habitudes...
> - Lui il croit pas que c’est la vraie nièce !...
> Is this as shocking to the natives as they are to me?



I'm not sure about "je veux": I understand it as a... oh dear, what the hell is the right word to use here? OK, this is what I understand:
"Of course he was at home (had he been pretending he wasn't?)... and he definitely was born 6 rue Maubel (not elsewhere)". Céline insiste sur ça, probablement après une négation ? I therefore don't think it is a subjunctive problem here. If I'm wrong, please let me know!

As for "bien que c'est pas" and "il croit pas que c'est", they do disturb my native ears and eyes.


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## balaam

Aupick said:
			
		

> I love the explanations in this thread, which tell us so much more than the grammar books ever do.
> 
> Can I add my own queries? I've come across the following (in Céline yet again - sorry!):
> - Je veux qu’il était chez lui... qu’il était né 6 rue Maubel
> which really shocks me, after all that work learning the subjunctive. Of course Céline is known for writing in an oral style, as if he were speaking, and even for exaggerating that oral style. Does this shock any of the natives, or might you find yourselves saying it (amongst friends, at least)?
> 
> Elsewhere he even avoids the present subjunctive:
> - bien que c’est pas dans ses habitudes...
> - Lui il croit pas que c’est la vraie nièce !...
> Is this as shocking to the natives as they are to me?



"Je veux qu’il était chez lui... qu’il était né 6 rue Maubel" is plain wrong to me even orally. "I MUST (?) that it was home... that it was born 6 Maubel street"
may I suggest that the sentence could be "Je VIS qu'il[...]" ?
this is the kind of things I read in novel and that I found both old-fashioned and unrealistic.
I remember a 70' comics about boyscouts (la patrouille des castors) where all characters speak like this. back in the 70's comics was frowned upon by teachers and parents alike as the source of poor language. it needs moral caution. and higly formalized speeches was supposed to fill the gap.


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## Sanda

balaam said:
			
		

> "Je veux qu’il était chez lui... qu’il était né 6 rue Maubel" is plain wrong to me even orally. "I MUST (?) that it was home... that it was born 6 Maubel street"



I think it is "I want".


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## pieanne

Aupick said:
			
		

> I love the explanations in this thread, which tell us so much more than the grammar books ever do.
> 
> Can I add my own queries? I've come across the following (in Céline yet again - sorry!):
> - Je veux qu’il était chez lui... qu’il était né 6 rue Maubel
> which really shocks me, after all that work learning the subjunctive. Of course Céline is known for writing in an oral style, as if he were speaking, and even for exaggerating that oral style. Does this shock any of the natives, or might you find yourselves saying it (amongst friends, at least)?
> 
> Elsewhere he even avoids the present subjunctive:
> - bien que c’est pas dans ses habitudes...
> - Lui il croit pas que c’est la vraie nièce !...
> Is this as shocking to the natives as they are to me?


 
Oh yes, it's shocking!


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## KittyCatty

Hello, I was going to post something about the subjunctive, but I think it ties so much into this thread...
So can I just check?
Not using the subjunctive sounds wrong to you following phrases that trigger it
e.g. Je ne pense pas qu'il *est *sounds wrong?
But do you avoid constructions using the subjunctive?
Thanks, if you could just clarify, I'd appreciate it


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## Sanda

KittyCatty said:
			
		

> Hello, I was going to post something about the subjunctive, but I think it ties so much into this thread...
> So can I just check?
> Not using the subjunctive sounds wrong to you following phrases that trigger it
> e.g. Je ne pense pas qu'il *est *sounds wrong?
> But do you avoid constructions using the subjunctive?
> Thanks, if you could just clarify, I'd appreciate it



"je ne pense pas qu'il est sourd"  
"je ne pense pas qu'il soit sourd"  

As someone said below (or above, depending on how you display the posts!), some people don't use the subjunctive even in this very current way (c'est une faute de langue).

We tend to avoid constructions using the subjonctif IMPARFAIT in speech (see below too). Should you want to use le subjonctif imparfait when writing, you'd have to make sure the register (very formal) was consistent throughout your work. It is however outdated nowadays.


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## balaam

sanda +1

"je ne pense pas qu'il est sourd" is the landmark of uneducated juvs. an adult saying this would be sawn as a redneck .


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## pieanne

Ahem...  Maybe would be *seen*...? (Sorry:   )


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## timboleicester

pieanne said:
			
		

> Oh yes, it's shocking!


 
My friend's grandma didn't use the subjuctive at all as far as I REMEMBER She was from a village in the Ardennes. This very much displeased her grand-daughter who thought it was really uncooth.

As for Bien que.... use the present subjuctive instead of the past (imperfect) even if this would be correct according to the famous concordance des temps. It's just not done
in modern speaking.

Although the perfect subjunctive is ok   ie bien qu'il soit arrivé a cinq heures...


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## emma42

This has really helped.  Cheers, all.


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## LV4-26

_Je veux qu'il était chez lui_

Correct explanation was given in the very first answer. Yes, I agree with Sanda (post #17).
_Un peu que.._ (and also_ un peu je veux_ que... or _y'a intérêt_ _que.._) means something like _sure._
_*Sure* he was home _or maybe_ *you bet*, he was home. _It asserts that what follows is true. It's emphatic, very colloquial, and sometimes vehement.
_Tu crois qu'il va t'rembourser ?
Un peu qu'il va m'rembourser ! Sinon, y va entend'e parler du pays !_

I also agree with Sanda in her answer (post #14) to emma42's question. We generally avoid the imperfect subjunctive by using constructions that don't require the subjunctive (as emma herself understood) : alors que, et pourtant, même si.....


			
				 Sanda said:
			
		

> is it just me?


 No, it isn't


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## KittyCatty

Thank you for your clarification 
It's very helpful and much appreciated


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## tamanoir

Bonjour à tous,

Jacques Chirac me donne l'occasion de ranimer ce fil indémodable sur le subjonctif. 
En effet j'ai eu le plaisir de l'entendre prononcer son beau discours sur les peuples autres (sic) lors de l'inauguration de son musée du Quai Branly cette semaine.
Une phrase m'a paru digne d'éloge par son élégance formelle et sa densité.
La voici :
"Peuples humiliés et méprisés, auxquels on allait jusqu'à dénier qu'ils eussent une histoire".

Comme quoi, le subjonctif imparfait n'est pas tout à fait mort contrairement à ce qu'on entend souvent. Sa qualité principale est bien de rendre la pensée plus concise. Un bon test serait d'essayer de reformuler cette idée sans utiliser le subjonctif. A vos plumes!


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