# à se baisser et à se ruiner



## Soleil_Couchant

Okay, again 1923 book, in this scene the marquis just introduced the main character/speaker to his (the marquis') mistress. The main character leaves feeling humiliated and thinks the following sentence. The overall sense is he's resentful and angry that rich men can get any woman they want (the character speaking is ugly and has had zero luck with women). 

But the part that is weird to me is the "à se baisser et à se ruiner."  He's saying, what -- that  the only thing rich men have to do is "debase and degrade themselves" to get whatever women they want? That seems strange, I'd have to mull it over (the character speaking is strange so it's possible) ... but first I wanted to ask if I'm understanding the French there correctly. 

« Je me sentais une haine farouche pour le marquis ... et pour tous les hommes riches, qui n'ont qu'*à se baisser et à se ruiner* pour ramasser de pareilles femmes ! »

(My full translation of the sentence would be something like: "I felt a fierce hatred for the marquis ... and for all the rich men, who only had to debase and degrade themselves to get/gather up such women!")

Thoughts?

thanks.


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## Itisi

pick them up and spend a fortune on them


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## Soleil_Couchant

So here, se baisser = to pick up, and se ruiner = spend a fortune on them? Just to make sure I get it. But yes! that would make a lot more sense in the context than what I said, haha.


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## Itisi

bend down to pick them up, because they are lowly women, kind of thing...


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## Soleil_Couchant

So there is a sense of 'lowering himself.'  All right. It does make sense now to me. Thanks.


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## Itisi

Perhaps not 'lowly', but beneath him.


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## Soleil_Couchant

Yes, exactly. In class, status, whatever. I understood what you had meant. Like all he has to do is deign to lower himself beneath his class/status and spend a fortune on them.


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## Itisi

Exactly.


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## pointvirgule

I'm sorry, but the verb used is not _s'abaisser_, but _se baisser_, physically = _se pencher_.
_Se baisser pour ramasser → bend down and pick up_, like you would pick strawberries in a field, or pick up a coin on the ground.

So I don't think that _n'avoir qu'à se baisser_ is a matter of social status, but of being an easy thing.


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## Soleil_Couchant

Okay! The more responses/insight the merrier, because indeed I was confused. Do you agree with "se ruiner" as "spend a fortune?"


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## ForeverHis

Hello,

That's sounds about right according to this definition, or maybe "go broke".

*  se ruiner        * * emploi pronominal  *
5   dépenser trop dans une activité  
6   perdre tout son bien  

Définition se ruiner | Dictionnaire définition français | Reverso


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## archijacq

"se baisser" n'a pas le sens de "s'abaisser".
They are spoilt for choice (easy pickings)

_Il n'y a qu'à se baisser pour en_ (var. : _et à_) _prendre._ *La chose est aisée, facile*

Edit : je viens de voir, trop tard, le post de PV.


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## pointvirgule

archijacq said:


> Edit : je viens de voir, trop tard, le post de PV.


Mais je suis bien content que vous ne l'ayez pas vu avant : votre explication est plus claire.


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## JClaudeK

J'_arrive_ _à la fumée des cierges  _mais je voudrais quand même confirmer que l'expression "n'avoir qu'à se baisser pour ..." est très courante en français pour exprimer qu'on peut obtenir quelque chose sans effort.
Voir les nombreuses occurrences de "il suffit de se baisser".

Dans le contexte présent, le fait d'être riche (_"se ruiner"_) est évidemment important. Pour un pauvre diable, ces femmes ne seraient pas accessibles.


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## Soleil_Couchant

JClaudeK you are not at the dying embers here, because my flame for this subject and my threads burns on.  I always appreciate responses.

Okay...thanks again to everyone for the response. So se baisser here is to emphasize how easy it is.

ForeverHis, I think definition 5 fits the best, "spending too much" on one thing rather than spending all he has. As, JclaudeK affirms, the fact the marquis is rich is the point of this comment. Since he is wealthy, he _can_ drop a lot of money on women and not have it affect him and then through that he can go around and easily pick and collect whatever women he wants. Like blueberries (or...something). The marquis was still very wealthy in the book, even with his mistresses, so he didn't spend all his money on them!

Maybe in modern terms it's similar to "blowing a lot of cash" or money. Doesn't mean you spend everything and go broke, but just drop way too much money than warranted on one thing.  Like, "damn I sure blew a lot of cash paying $1,000 for that little porcelain guinea pig sculpture!"  So yeah, the marquis here is able to "blow a lot of money" as he pleases, for women, whatever, because he is rich.

And yes, the character speaking is definitely not wealthy, not having lots of expendable cash, etc. He basically has nothing going for him except his hope that his poetry might eventually be enough to woo someone in spite of his bad looks and whatever else is working against him.


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## JClaudeK

Soleil_Couchant said:


> So _se baiser_ here is to emphasize how easy it is.


"se bais*s*er"


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## Soleil_Couchant

Lol okay I fixed it. I'll refrain from making some kind of context-relevant joke here...


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## JClaudeK

Est-ce que tu connais a réputation des Corses ? On dit qu'ils sont très paresseux.
Voici donc une petite blague pour illustrer "il suffit de se baisser pour le ramasser":
_
C'est un Corse qui dit à son vieux père : 
- Té, demain je pars travailler sur le continent. Le père lui répond : 
- Tu verras, mon fils, là-bas, il y a de l'argent partout, il suffit de se baisser pour le ramasser. 
Le lendemain, le fils prend donc le bateau, et arrive sur le port de Marseille.
Il débarque et aperçoit sur un trottoir un billet de 500 Euros. Alors il se dit: 
- Oh hé puis non, je commencerai demain... 
_
SCNR


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## Soleil_Couchant

Huh, how old is that? If older than 1923, it wouldn't surprise me if Leroux was taking from that (he (and his main character here) used a lot of allusions, and other times the author 'lifts' things, shh).  Or, maybe it's just a more common saying and that's what he/they (author and character) were playing off of. Thanks for sharing!

And yes that helps illustrate the idea of it just being a matter of bending down and picking it up because something is so easy to get, is all around,  etc.


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## JClaudeK

Soleil_Couchant said:


> Huh, how old is that? If older than 1923


I don't know. In 1923 I was not yet born. 

En tout cas, ça fait partie des "classiques" parmi les 'blagues corses' (qui sont bien sûr aussi caricaturales que les blagues sur l'avarice des Écossais).


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## Itisi

Je suis d'accord, 'se baisser n'est pas 's'abaisser'.  Mais il me semble qu'utiliser cette expression en parlant de femmes a malgré tout quelque chose de méprisant...

La blague n'est pas à 'origine de l'expression, ça, j'en suis sûre !


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## Soleil_Couchant

Ha, all right, thanks. Well maybe it was already a saying in the 20s and he was playing off of it...

Anyway, thanks to everyone for your insight and responses. This sentence in the book no longer gives me a headache.


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## Soleil_Couchant

I know this thread is done, but I got a chance to look at some pages from the one and only (thus far) existent English translation of this book (out of print) and they had this page. This edition translated it as:

"...who have only to* stoop and demean themselves* to pick up such women."

That actually seems to go along with my initial thoughts, and some of what Itisi said way back up... including the idea of rich men "lowering/demeaning" themselves to get such women.  Doesn't mean that this translator is the end-all, be-all either...since translation is so nebulous... but it was funny to see. (I already noticed some other possible discrepancies in this translation).

I mean, it's interesting, because it could very well be that this translator was reading it with the same anglophone eyes I was, translating the words more directly just as "to degrade/debase/lower," but missing the other meaning of bending down, spending a fortune, and easily plucking them up ... which the other francophones on this thread brought to my attention and which actually makes more sense (since it's tied into them being rich and thus having the ability to get whatever women they want).  The person who translated this back in 1934 didn't have the benefit of WordReference Forums 

who knows!


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## Reynald

D'accord avec PV, archijacq et JClaudeK pour le sens (facilité). Et, comme souvent ici, certaines questions attisant la curiosité, j'ai cherché ce qui se dirait en anglais.
Le R&C donne au sens figuré (celui de votre texte) pour_ il n'y a qu'à se baisser pour les ramasser_ _:_ _they're there for the taking_. (Le sens propre étant : _they're lying thick on the ground_).
Pas sûr que la tournure puisse s'utiliser pour des êtres humains, cependant. (?)


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## Kelly B

Oui, Reynald, on pourrait dire des femmes que _they're there for the taking, _mais pas ici, je pense, parce que l'auteur ajoute qu'on a aussi à se ruiner pour les ramasser. Si on dit que _they're there for the taking_, on les considèrent bien moins exigéantes.


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## Soleil_Couchant

Reynald, thanks for your endorsement of what PV, JK and archijaq came up with a few weeks ago on this thread.  It is interesting, isn't it?  That the only "official" English translation of this probably went with the "direct" translation (like how I'd read it initially) and didn't pick up on the actual French connotation of "there for the taking".  Because "stoop and demean" doesn't make a lot of sense, either, (like my "debase and degrade" initial guess)....which is why I came on here for help! So it's just an interesting little "romp" through the trials and tribulations of translations, and how we can't even always rely on already-existent translations. I know that well already from reading all 5-6 English translations of Le Fantôme de l'Opéra and how many things they miss/mess up there.  If I continue with my own little pet project of translating _La Poupée Sanglante_ (the book quoted in this thread), mine will perhaps be better than the out-of-print edition thanks to all the help I've gotten here ;P   (And like I mentioned before, I already started noticing other major changes in the English version that made me cringe, like chapter titles, not to mention the book's actual title itself, etc. why do people do that!?)

I'm curious, Reynald, do you see "se ruiner" as "drop a fortune/spend a fortune" as well as the others on this thread? Because I do feel that made sense as it tied into why it'd be easy to get women as a rich guy.


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## Reynald

Pour moi, la phrase joue habilement sur les deux sens de _se ruiner_ : 1/ les hommes très riches n'ont qu'à (ont juste à) dépenser des fortunes pour avoir ces femmes : c'est une dépense facile pour eux. Mais 2/ certains se ruinent aussi réellement (= perdent toute leur fortune) pour elles : cela arrive très facilement aussi étant donné les exigences de "pareilles femmes". On perçoit, me semble-t-il, une ironie amère dans ce deuxième sens : il est facile d'avoir ces femmes, il "suffit" de se ruiner (de tout perdre). Encore faut-il avoir une fortune à perdre ! Ce qui n'est pas le cas du personnage.

(Et merci Kelly pour la précision).


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## Soleil_Couchant

Aaaah okay. See, I think I fully get it now! It would fit the character, too. Thank you for explaining further!


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## JClaudeK

Reynald said:


> 1/ les hommes très riches n'ont qu'à (ont juste à) dépenser des fortunes pour avoir ces femmes : c'est une dépense facile pour eux.


 C'est aussi mon avis.
Voire même: Ce qui, pour celui qui prononce la phrase,
_« Je me sentais une haine farouche pour le marquis ... et pour tous les hommes riches, qui n'ont qu'à se baisser et à se ruiner pour ramasser de pareilles femmes ! »_
paraît être une fortune ne représente peut-être (sans doute) pas grand-chose pour le marquis.


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## Soleil_Couchant

Thanks again! These kinds of dialogues make me happy in life!


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