# Persian: Why isn't the /ye/ in /khaaneyeshaan/ written?



## Haji Firouz

Hello,

We say /kabutarhaa*ye*maan/ and write کبوترهایمان (our dove),
we say /khaane*ye*shan/ and write خانه شان (their house). I was expecting خانه یشان or خانه ی شان.

My question is: why do we write the ی /ye/ in the first word, but in the second, we don't, if we pronounce it in both?

According to the transcripts I have found, we do pronounce the /ye/ in both words.

Is this a type error in the text?

Thank you.


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## PersoLatin

'ye' is always written and pronounced when: the first word ends in a:
long vowel like ا/aa and و/oo and the formal rule for this type is simple:
کبوترهایمان/‏دستهایم ‏ (-*ya*m & -*ye*mân) or مویم/‏رویم ‏ (mu*ya*m, ru*ya*m)

silent h/é, the formal rule for these has been fluid:
1 خانه ی شما This is the latest commendation
2 خانه شما/خانه شان  in this style 'ye' isn't explicitly pronounced but it is used formally
3 خانۀ شما - this is not supposed to be used but you'll still see it



Haji Firouz said:


> خانه شان (their house)


 for this I would use these _خانه_ ام _خانه_ ات _خانه_ اش _خانه_ یمان _خانه_ یتان _*خانه یشان*_


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## Haji Firouz

Great, thank you so much, PersoLatin.

روزی که درهای خانه شان نمیبندند

/ruzi ke darhaayee khaneYE shaan nemibandand/

This is again from Ahmad Shamlu's poem.

The transcript was provided in the same site that exhibits the poem. I'm a bit confused between versions 1 and 2. So, the 1st one is recommended (written /ye/) - (why and in which case or context?), but the 2nd one is the formal variant.
Is 1 formal or informal?

Sorry, I seem to stumble upon these small details a lot lately, in the long term I figure it's beneficial to sort them out asap. If I don't stop and ponder about every detail... there is a big chance I adopt a wrong rule or wrong assumption, one that is hard to shake off later on when the automatism has been created.

Later edit: I had forgotten the YE


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## Qureshpor

Haji Firouz said:


> Hello,
> 
> We say /kabutarhaa*ye*maan/ and write کبوترهایمان (our dove),
> we say /khaane*ye*shan/ and write خانه شان (their house). I was expecting خانه یشان or خانه ی شان.
> 
> My question is: why do we write the ی /ye/ in the first word, but in the second, we don't, if we pronounce it in both?
> 
> According to the transcripts I have found, we do pronounce the /ye/ in both words.
> 
> Is this a type error in the text?
> 
> Thank you.


In theory, there should be no ی after the possessive pronoun suffixes. In the older language, they were۔۔۔

-am/-amaan, -at/-ataan and -ash/-ashaan

خانه was pronounced xaana, and with the suffix xaana-maan.

Modern day pronunciation in Iran is xaane (or xuune, depending on how far you want to go!)

So, xaane-ashaan > xaane-shaan without any ی intervention,

The "problem", if I may call it as such, is that the modern pronuncitation sounds as if there is an izaafat there. Just look at the example @PersoLatin  has provided, i.e kabutarhaa*ye*maan کبوترھایمان which sounds as if it is کبوترھایِ مان .

These suffixes in the modern language have become -am/-eman, -at/-etaan, -esh/-eshaan.


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## Haji Firouz

Hi Qureshpor,



Qureshpor said:


> Modern day pronunciation in Iran is xaane (or xuune, depending on how far you want to go!)


Natives are amused by my saying /xaane/ instead of /xune/ (which amazes me). I prefer to master the formal pronunciation though first for reasons of conversion:
Convering /u/ from informal to formal can render either /aa/ or /u/, however
Convering /aa/ from formal to informal always renders /u/.




Qureshpor said:


> The "problem", if I may call it as such, is that the modern pronuncitation sounds as if there is an izaafat there. Just look at the example @PersoLatin has provided, i.e kabutarhaa*ye*maan کبوترھایمان which sounds as if it is کبوترھایِ مان .


I'll have to look this /izaafat/ up...
I'm not sure I understand why there is a problem with this speeling: کبوترھایِ مان .

Thanks a lot for your input as well! You guys are very helpful.
Regards,


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## Eastern Ludicrous Writer

Haji Firouz said:


> We say /kabutarhaa*ye*maan/ and write کبوترهایمان (our dove),
> we say /khaane*ye*shan/ and write خانه شان (their house). I was expecting خانه یشان or خانه ی شان.


Please note that the *Possessive Pronouns *is as, م، ت، ش، مان، تان، شان, So these are main pattern:
کتابم 
کتابت
کتابش
کتابمان
کتابتان
کتابشان
Or
خانه ام
خانه ات
خانه اش
خانه مان
خانه تان
خانه شان
*Possessive Pronouns م ، ت ، ش when want to use with a word with هin the end as خانه, there will be add a ا to it. م + ا + خانه*
As you see the above are based on کتاب( only single - a book),
but what happen in plural کتاب ها
کتاب هایم
کتاب هایت
کتاب هایش
کتاب هایمان
کتاب هایتان
کتاب هایشان
Please also note that ی is very important in the words, which cannot be pronounced. same as مان + ی +ها + کتاب in this word.
in your examples you mixed up two kind of single and plural names. One is single and the other is plural.


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## utopia62000

What I see in books and essays nowadays, most authors omit that ی. They simply write خانه شان when you talk about a singular noun. But in case of plural nouns, you need to maintain the ی and for instance, you write خانه هایشان.


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## Eastern Ludicrous Writer

utopia62000 said:


> What I see in books and essays nowadays, most authors omit that ی. They simply write خانه شان when you talk about a singular noun. But in case of plural nouns, you need to maintain the ی and for instance, you write خانه هایشان.


In singular there is no ی, to be omitted.


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## Eastern Ludicrous Writer

Eastern Ludicrous Writer said:


> Please also note that ی is very important in the words, which cannot be pronounced. same as مان + ی +ها + کتاب in this word.


I correct above:  ی has important role in Farsi words when a letter cannot be read or pronounce.


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## utopia62000

Eastern Ludicrous Writer said:


> I correct above:  ی has important role in Farsi words when a letter cannot be read or pronounce.



please check the green part in the second line of original post.


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## Eastern Ludicrous Writer

Haji Firouz said:


> I was expecting خانه یشان or خانه ی شان.


This ی based on my knowledge is wrong. 
And in slang we sayخونشون !!!


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## utopia62000

Eastern Ludicrous Writer said:


> This ی based on my knowledge is wrong.
> And in slang we sayخونشون !!!


If your mother tongue is Farsi, you should know that the actual form is خانهء ایشان. We can not categorically deny correctness of using the ی or its omission.


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## Eastern Ludicrous Writer

utopia62000 said:


> If your mother tongue is Farsi, you should know that the actual form is خانهء ایشان. We can not categorically deny correctness of using the ی or its omission.


My mother language is Farsi, And my job was teaching Farsi as well. I think the best reference is Farsi grammar books to understand *Possessive Pronouns* , There is no need to be Persian. 
Now do you know how we use these kind of pronouns. Please do not refer to what you learn in your home, only with refer to grammar books. Please note that in grammar also you can find exactly خانه in most of books.
Can you please help me, to know what is خانهء ایشان and how it has been made in grammar?


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## utopia62000

Eastern Ludicrous Writer said:


> My mother language is Farsi, And my job was teaching Farsi as well. I think the best reference is Farsi grammar books to understand *Possessive Pronouns* , There is no need to be Persian.
> Now do you know how we use these kind of pronouns. Please do not refer to what you learn in your home, only with refer to grammar books. Please note that in grammar also you can find exactly خانه in most of books.
> Can you please help me, to know what is خانهء ایشان and how it has been made in grammar?


I feel, it is better someone else helps you.
Good luck.


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## PersoLatin

utopia62000 said:


> you should know that the actual form is خانهء ایشان


I am sure you mean means خانۀ ایشان


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## PersoLatin

Qureshpor said:


> In theory, there should be no ی after the possessive pronoun suffixes. In the older language, they were۔۔۔


As has been said on many occasions, most pronunciations, at least under this topic, that are attributed to Indo/classical Persian, prevail in present day Iran, e.g. for خانه we have both xâné and xâna and with the latter you will hear xâna-ŝân as well as xâna-yaŝân.

So modern Iranians at least, insert 'ye' as a glide to make pronunciations easier whether from Tehran or elsewhere, of course we really don't know how these were pronounced in classical Persian, but people use this 'ye' not for cosmetic reasons. We seem to accept گ in ستارگان or بچگان etc, without question and why, because the guys of classical Persian times assigned a letter for it, mainly because there was a letter for it in the pre-Arabic script, but no suitable letter was assigned for this 'ye' until ۀ was invented but that wasn't clear enough so an explicit ی was assigned to that job.


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## Eastern Ludicrous Writer

PersoLatin said:


> I am sure you mean means خانۀ ایشان


خانه ایشان  is مضاف و مضاف الیه
خانه شان is اسم و ضمیر ملکی متصل
we are talking two different categories.


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## PersoLatin

Eastern Ludicrous Writer said:


> خانه ایشان is مضاف و مضاف الیه
> خانه شان is اسم و ضمیر ملکی متصل
> we are talking two different categories.


I agree, what I was trying to say was that in Persian hamzé was/is never used this way: خانه*ء* but only this way: خانۀ i.e. *ۀ*


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## Eastern Ludicrous Writer

PersoLatin said:


> I agree, what I was trying to say was that in Persian hamzé was/is never used this way: خانه*ء* but only this way: خانۀ i.e. *ۀ*


Oh, I see. thanks


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## utopia62000

PersoLatin said:


> I am sure you mean means خانۀ ایشان


Yes I understand. I am not in good command of MS Word and didn't know how to put the hamzeh up there.


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