# Origin of Zayin



## Jamal31

Hello,

I am currently looking into the origin of the Hebrew alphabet and have found the Egyptian hieroglyph origins for most letters. However, the letter ז apparently has a sword or manacle hieroglyph origin, but it doesn't seem to appear depicted anywhere that I've searched. I've seen several (contradictory) depictions of the Proto-Sinaitic hieroglyph, but nothing of the Egyptian. Does anyone have any info into which glyph this may be exactly?


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## Drink

I think the prevailing theory is that some of the letters may have originally been based on hieroglyphs, but not necessarily all of them.


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## Jamal31

I'm not sure about that, because from what I've seen they can all be traced to hieroglyphs, but even if that were the case, from what I've read Zayin is definitely from Egyptian hieroglyphs.


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## Drink

Here are all the Egyptian weaponry glyphs (the T series). A manacle could perhaps be V13 (tethering rope), which looks somewhat similar to the shape of the Proto-Sinaitic zayin given in this table, but I'm not sure how accurate that table is.


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## Jamal31

Thanks, Drink. That definitely seems possible. Hopefully someone can confirm. I was thinking maybe t8 because it states “first, chief, upon”, which corresponds to the Arabic word زين.


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## Drink

Another thing to remember, though, is that the name of the letter might not have the same origin as the glyph itself (meaning that the letter could have been given a new name later on). I don't know whether this is the case for zayin, but it is certainly the case for some other letters.


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## Jamal31

Yeah I do keep that in mind. Hopefully someone will know more about it


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## Jamal31

*Moderator note: Start of merged thread.*

Hello,

I am currently looking into the origin of the Semitic alphabet and have found the Egyptian hieroglyph origins for most letters. However, the letter Zayin apparently has a sword or manacle hieroglyph origin, but it doesn't seem to appear depicted anywhere that I've searched. I've seen several (contradictory) depictions of the Proto-Sinaitic hieroglyph, but nothing of the Egyptian. Does anyone have any info into which glyph this may be exactly?


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## rushalaim

Maybe "Zayin" means "olive"? Compare it with Greek "Zeta".


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## Jamal31

Thanks for the idea, rushalaim. I don't believe that's the case though. Zayin seams to correspond to the ancient word for some kind of weapon or manacle.


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## fdb

rushalaim said:


> Maybe "Zayin" means "olive"?



In what language?



rushalaim said:


> Compare it with Greek "Zeta".



Greek zeta has its /t/ by analogy to eta and theta.


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## Thanderbolten

fdb said:


> In what language?


 In Arabic, "olive" is "Ziatun" which is close. So maybe the cognate in the other Semitic languages may sound closer to "zayin"? I do not know as I do not speak the other languages, but it is a possibility. I heard Hebrew is much more "relaxed", so it is possible for it to have dropped the [t].  

But I myself don't buy into that.


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## fdb

Thanderbolten said:


> In Arabic, "olive" is "Ziatun" which is close. So maybe the cognate in the other Semitic languages may sound closer to "zayin"? I do not know as I do not speak the other languages, but it is a possibility. I heard Hebrew is much more "relaxed", so it is possible for it to have dropped the [t].




Arabic zaytun (not “ziatun”), Hebrew zayit, Aramaic zaytā, Ethiopic zayt all have -t not -n.


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## Drink

I think what Rushlaim meant was that maybe the original name of the letter was zayit, giving the Greek name of the letter as evidence. But I personally find fdb's explanation of the Greek name more convincing.


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## rushalaim

Greeks took their Alphabet from Phoenicians directly. "Hebrew" got many changes in pronunciation. For example, Jewish-Yemenites are naming Zayin-letter like Zan, or "Hebrew" Mem-letter like Mi.
History of the Greek alphabet - Wikipedia

The name of letters is a hint Phoenicians took them from Egyptian-hieroglyphs. Letters' name is secondary. The most important is Phoenicians attached numeral value for every letter, and order is extremely strict in Phoenician-Alphabet. Because Phoenicians used it for book-keeping in their trade. Phoenician-Alphabet is the code.


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## fdb

rushalaim said:


> The most important is Phoenicians attached numeral value for every letter, and order is extremely strict in Phoenician-Alphabet. Because Phoenicians used it for book-keeping in their trade. Phoenician-Alphabet is the code.



Current scholarly opinion is that the use of the letters to indicate numbers is a Greek innovation, adopted by Aramaic, Hebrew etc. in the Hellenistic period.


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## origumi

rushalaim said:


> Greeks took their Alphabet from Phoenicians directly. "Hebrew" got many changes in pronunciation. For example, Jewish-Yemenites are naming Zayin-letter like Zan, or "Hebrew" Mem-letter like Mi.
> History of the Greek alphabet - Wikipedia
> 
> The name of letters is a hint Phoenicians took them from Egyptian-hieroglyphs. Letters' name is secondary. The most important is Phoenicians attached numeral value for every letter, and order is extremely strict in Phoenician-Alphabet. Because Phoenicians used it for book-keeping in their trade. Phoenician-Alphabet is the code.


What a terrible mixture of periods. Jewish-Yemenites appear in history two millennia after the Canaanite script was invented. The contact of Phoenicians and Greeks happened a millennium after the script was invented. It's not even sure that "Phoenicians" have existed (as Phoenicians rather than "Proto-Canaanites" of some sort) in the centuries after the script was invented. Also not clear when they became global naval merchants who needed means of counting.


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## rushalaim

Greek letters have Phoenician names. Sorry, I don't understand why Greeks couldn't take the strict numeral value of Alphabet from Phoenicians either? And why Greek "zeta" couldn't be Phoenician זיתא ?


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## fdb

rushalaim said:


> Sorry, I don't understand why Greeks couldn't take the strict numeral value of Alphabet from Phoenicians either?



Maybe because there is absolutely no evidence that the Phoenicians ever used the letters as numbers?



rushalaim said:


> And why Greek "zeta" couldn't be Phoenician זיתא ?



Maybe because there is absolutely no evidence for זיתא as a letter-name in any Semitic language?


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