# Macedonian: не си го продавај



## Emmanon82

"Не си го продавај Кољо чифликот"
It seemes to be а Macedonian song, but I`ve also heard it in Bulgarian ( with different words)
There are some words I can`t translate:

рујно, меракот,трлото

P.S. Is it correct to use cyrillic alphabet?


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## sumner

Emmanon82 said:


> "Не си го продавај Кољо чифликот"
> It seemes to be а Macedonian song, but I`ve also heard it in Bulgarian ( with different words)
> There are some words I can`t translate:
> 
> рујно, меракот,трлото
> 
> P.S. Is it correct to use cyrillic alphabet?



Hi, first of all I am not Macedonian but Bulgarian, but I will try to help as well as I can:
*
рујно *- It means sparkling. We usually use it as adjective for wine  -   рујно вино (sparkling wine).
*
трлото* - It is a place in the field, enclosed by fence, where the sheep pass the night (sleep).

* меракот* is a word i could not translate, so we will wait for Macedonians to explain


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## sumner

Emmanon82 said:


> "Не си го продавај Кољо чифликот"
> It seemes to be а Macedonian song, but I`ve also heard it in Bulgarian ( with different words)
> There are some words I can`t translate:
> 
> рујно, меракот,трлото
> 
> P.S. Is it correct to use cyrillic alphabet?



Hi, first of all I am not Macedonian but Bulgarian, but I will try to help as well as I can:
*
рујно *- It means sparkling. We usually use it as adjective for wine  -   рујно вино (sparkling wine).
*
трлото* - It is a place in the field, enclosed by fence, where the sheep pass the night (sleep).

* меракот* is a word i could not translate, so we will wait for Macedonians to explain


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## Emmanon82

Thank you, is there a letter j in Bulgarian Cyrillic alphabet? or й ?

I wondered that 2 texts are so close to each other  But меракот exists in Bulgarian lyrics too.

Have you ever heard that song?


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## sumner

Emmanon82 said:


> Thank you, is there a letter j in Bulgarian Cyrillic alphabet? or й ?
> 
> I wondered that 2 texts are so close to each other  But меракот exists in Bulgarian lyrics too.
> 
> Have you ever heard that song?



No, there is no letter *j* in Bulgarian alphabet. It is *й* 
The Macedonian and Bulgarian languages are so close, that's why I can understand a lot. But this is one typical Macedonian song and looking now at the Bulgarian version I realize that this is not the clear literary Bulgarian language. It sounds to me as a dialect or it is something between Bulgarian and Macedonian. So *меракот* sounds like dialect word to me and It is something that i can not understand. In fact i have never heard this song, but i got the lyrics


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## Duya

sumner said:


> *
> рујно *- It means sparkling. We usually use it as adjective for wine  -   рујно вино (sparkling wine).



I'm not a Macedonian either but a Serbian, but I highly doubt that "rujno" means sparkling (even in Bulgarian); "rujno vino" in itself is an oldish idiom (I don't think adjective "rujan" is ever used in other context), but I'd say that it means "red", and my En-Sr dictionary agrees:

rujan II a. reddish; (dark) red; ~jno vino red wine


sumner said:


> * меракот* is a word i could not translate, so we will wait for Macedonians to explain



_Merak_ comes from Turkish, and means "enjoyment, pleasure".


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## Athaulf

Duya said:


> I'm not a Macedonian either but a Serbian, but I highly doubt that "rujno" means sparkling (even in Bulgarian); "rujno vino" in itself is an oldish idiom (I don't think adjective "rujan" is ever used in other context), but I'd say that it means "red", and my En-Sr dictionary agrees:
> 
> rujan II a. reddish; (dark) red; ~jno vino red wine



It's also sometimes used in the idiom "rujna zora". This adjective could be just a different, more archaic form of "rumen".


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## sumner

Duya said:


> I'm not a Macedonian either but a Serbian, but I highly doubt that "rujno" means sparkling (even in Bulgarian); "rujno vino" in itself is an oldish idiom (I don't think adjective "rujan" is ever used in other context), but I'd say that it means "red", and my En-Sr dictionary agrees:
> 
> rujan II a. reddish; (dark) red; ~jno vino red wine.




As i said I am not Macedonian. In my en-bg dictionary: 
*руйно = руен = sparkling*
My grandmother (she lives in a village in the North Bulgaria) use руйно вино  as sparkling wine. So maybe here in the North Bulgaria we use it in this way, maybe in the West Bulgarian use it in a different way. I am not absolutely sure 

Regards!


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## Duya

Hmm. I see what you're talking about (http://www.chansonsbulgares.org/dictionnaire/r/roen.html,  pétillant = sparkling), but I have to conclude it's a back-formation/misconception.

I can see that the idiom руйно вино is used in numerous Bulgarian folk songs (just as in Macedonian, Serbian or Bosnian), but I seriously doubt that 18th or 19th century folk poets were even aware of existence of sparkling wine, let alone putting it in almost every song. And numerous toponyms, like *Руйно*, *Руй* or several *Руен* don't exactly convince me that the original meaning was "sparkling" or something like that; "red" or "maroon" look far more plausible in toponymic context. 

So, my theory is that, like in Serbian or Macedonian, the original use of adjective руйн was lost, but the idiom "ruyno vino" survived; the people weren't quite aware of its original meaning so they started using it in the "sparkling" meaning. 

See also here:
9.  (...) В Сербии существует лечебное растение руй  так же, как и много топонимов этого рода - Руй, Руйно, Руище, Руйевеци т.д. Согласно сербским_ ученым_, на балтийском (?) острове Rigen, что они переводят как Руйен,  находится языческое святилище, которое они принимают как древнеславянское святилище_ т.н. бога Руйена. Некоторые русские ученые принимают этот храм как святилище Свентилы. Тем не менее, эта этимология выглядит довольно импровизированной


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## sumner

Hi Duya 

I agree with you but now I see that i did not explain to you and to others what exactly I wanted to say. I see now that sparkling has 2 acceptations. I am using *sparkling* as glitter, magnificence, wonderful, excellent. In bulgarian the right phrase is *искрящо вино. *Maybe you understood that I am using sparkling as champagne, right? So my grandma always says that when you drink руйно вино means that you are drinking the most wonderful/excellent wine 
5 mins ago i asked my colleague how she understand *руйно вино* and she answered "red wine"!  
So the deduction is that my grandma maybe has a wrong opinion 

Anyway it was very nice to discuss something near to our general culture but maybe Emmanon82 is confused now


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## Kolan

Duya said:


> See also here:
> 9. В Сербии существует лечебное растение руй  так же, как и много топонимов этого рода - Руй, Руйно, Руище, Руйевеци т.д. Согласно сербским_ ученым_, на балтийском (?) острове Rigen, что они переводят как Руйен,  находится языческое святилище, которое они принимают как древнеславянское святилище_ т.н. бога Руйена. Некоторые русские ученые принимают этот храм как святилище Свентилы. Тем не менее, эта этимология выглядит довольно импровизированной.


Just a few corrections, since the extract is in Russian.


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## Emmanon82

[/QUOTE]





sumner said:


> Anyway it was very nice to discuss something near to our general culture but maybe Emmanon82 is confused now


Mmm, such an interesting discussion 

It`s just clear that _руjно_  it`s some kind of good wine ( red wine) that a person drinks ( По меани одиш...руjно вино пиеш) 

...Croatians also call September  "rujan"...Why?


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## Athaulf

sumner said:


> I agree with you but now I see that i did not explain to you and to others what exactly I wanted to say. I see now that sparkling has 2 acceptations. I am using *sparkling* as glitter, magnificence, wonderful, excellent. In bulgarian the right phrase is *искрящо вино. *Maybe you understood that I am using sparkling as champagne, right?



Actually, "sparkling wine" is the standard English term for carbonated, i.e. fizzy wine; an English speaker will normally understand the phrase that way.  See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparkling_wine. I've never heard "sparkling" being used as an adjective for "wine" with any other meaning.


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## Duya

> ...Croatians also call September  "rujan"...Why?



There are (at least) two different theories: see the old thread, as well as here or here. The one with "red" etymology looks more plausible to me, but on the other hand it is contradictory with the etymology of apparent Czech cognate (or is it a false friend?) říjen.


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## Kriviq

sumner said:


> No, there is no letter *j* in Bulgarian alphabet. It is *й*
> The Macedonian and Bulgarian languages are so close, that's why I can understand a lot. But this is one typical Macedonian song and looking now at the Bulgarian version I realize that this is not the clear literary Bulgarian language. It sounds to me as a dialect or it is something between Bulgarian and Macedonian. So *меракот* sounds like dialect word to me and It is something that i can not understand. In fact i have never heard this song, but i got the lyrics



Мерак means a longing wish, desire, yearning.

It is no wonder you understand Macedonian since this language was first heard of in 1946, having been regarded as a western dialect of the Bulgarian language until that time.


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## Duya

Kriviq said:


> Мерак means a longing wish, desire, yearning.



I was about to say "wrong", but I decided to do some research first, and you're right. In Turkish, it does mean "wish, desire, passion for, anxiety"; that meaning is apparently carried into Macedonian and Serbian. In Serbian, verb "meračiti" or "merkati", while somewhat dialectal, means "to wish; to keep an eye on something; to hope for" -- it's difficult to translate the exact nuances of meaning.

On the other hand, in my homeland Bosnia, the word _merak_ evolved into "pleasure, delight", and that is also how it's mostly understood in modern Serbian; the "passion for" meaning is more characteristic for southern Serbia. Compare few verses from folk songs:

"Ah meraka u večeri rane" (Bosnian, "oh the delight of early evenings")

"merak imam na prvo komšijče" (south Serbian, "I desire my first neighbor")
"golem merak imam za nego" (Macedonian, "I have great passion for him")

but the "passion for" meaning can also be encountered in a Bosnian sevdalinka:
_                             Ðevojke su pod ružicom vezle,...
Svaka fali svojega meraka
_(Girls embroided under the rose tree,
each praising her own _merak_) (i.e. desired boy)

On the other hand, derivative "meraklija, meraklijski" universally means "someone who knows how to enjoy life" in Bosnia, Serbia and Macedonia (it's really difficult to translate, and Bosnians often stress _merak_ as an important cultural pattern); for example, "meraklije" is a football fan group from Niš. Compare to modern Turkish "meraklı maymun" -- curious monkey.

P.S. according to the Google search, the "pleasure" meaning is prominent in modern Macedonian as well.


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## Emmanon82

Your google search is for Macedonians ( Bulgarians,Serbians,who understand the similar language properly ) only.

...And there are no Macedonians in this discussion... Is this for sure  that it exactly means "the pleasure"? how could I know?


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## JoelBackman

Emmanon82 said:


> Your google search is for Macedonians ( Bulgarians,Serbians,who understand the similar language properly ) only.
> 
> ...And there are no Macedonians in this discussion... Is this for sure that it exactly means "the pleasure"? how could I know?


 
Меракот = the pleasure
Мерак = pleasure in Macedonian

But it can also have similar meaning like

Тој има мерак за риба - He has the desire for fish. He likes fish. He is fond of fish.
or

Тој има мерак за рујно вино црвено  - He likes red wine. 
Си го прави меракот - He does like it pleases him.


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## Emmanon82

Thank you. "Руjно" means "red" in this song?


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## Duya

Well, the point is that _both _Kriviq and me were right. Back to your original question regarding the song: I found the text here, but I can't deduce the intent either , as the lyrics are fairly "condensed" and don't provide much context. It's hard to say which. I can't make too much sense from the other verses, like:

Колку ти чинат Кољо овците,
_As much as the sheep are worth to you_
толку ми чинат Кољо очите
_That much are the eyes worth to me._

Колку ти чини Кољо трлото,
_As much as the sheepfold is worth to you_
толку ми чини Кољо грлото
_That much is the throat worth to me.

_Колку ти чини Кољо чифликот,
_As much as the farm is worth to you_
толку ми чини Кољо меракот
_That much is the merak worth to me.

_After all, I'd go with "desire" or "passion" here; after some more examination of Macedonian texts, especially when the definite article -ot is appended, it is still used in that sense too. (And no hits in online mk-en dictionaries either, which are generally bad).


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## JoelBackman

Emmanon82 said:


> Thank you. "Руjно" means "red" in this song?


 
Yes.
рујно - red 

They didn't have sparkling wine back then.
But it could have a different meaning in other languages.

Here is an example of another macedonian song where the word рујно(rujno) is translated as rode in dutch:
home-hetnet-nl/~dolopdans/teksten/imatelivino.html

replace the - with .


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## Kriviq

Emmanon82 said:


> Your google search is for Macedonians ( Bulgarians,Serbians,who understand the similar language properly ) only.
> 
> ...And there are no Macedonians in this discussion... Is this for sure  that it exactly means "the pleasure"? how could I know?



If you would provide the verses, we could try to be more specific.


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## JoelBackman

Колку ти чини Кољо чифликот,
_As much as the farm is worth to you Kolyo (male name)_
толку ми чини Кољо меракот
_That much is the merak worth to me._
_That is the price of the pleasure with me._

_толку - that much_
_ми - to me_
_чини - cost, worth ( Колку чини куќата? - How much does the house cost? Meaning: What is the price of the house?)_
_merak - in this context it would mean the pleasure for Kolyo to have the girl as his wife (also you could translate it as the pleasure to have her or the pleasure to have sex with her)_

_The whole song is about comparing the price of the girl with the price of everything that the boy (Kolyo) owned._
_He would have to sell everything he owned just to have her (as his wife)._

_None of the suggestions are wrong, the meaning depends of the context in which the word is used._


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## Emmanon82

Kriviq said:


> If you would provide the verses, we could try to be more specific.


Duja has provided it above  
I only meant that ( as for me!) native-speakers can usually not only _understand_ but also _feel _the language. 

There`s no doubt that every effort is really valuable 

The _last (!) _question from me  : Koljo - is it a full or a short form of the name?


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## Kriviq

Duya said:


> I can see that the idiom руйно вино is used in numerous Bulgarian folk songs (just as in Macedonian, Serbian or Bosnian), but I seriously doubt that 18th or 19th century folk poets were even aware of existence of sparkling wine, let alone putting it in almost every song. And numerous toponyms, like *Руйно*, *Руй* or several *Руен* don't exactly convince me that the original meaning was "sparkling" or something like that; "red" or "maroon" look far more plausible in toponymic context.
> 
> So, my theory is that, like in Serbian or Macedonian, the original use of adjective руйн was lost, but the idiom "ruyno vino" survived; the people weren't quite aware of its original meaning so they started using it in the "sparkling" meaning.
> 
> See also here:
> 9.  (...) В Сербии существует лечебное растение руй  так же, как и много топонимов этого рода - Руй, Руйно, Руище, Руйевеци т.д. Согласно сербским_ ученым_, на балтийском (?) острове Rigen, что они переводят как Руйен,  находится языческое святилище, которое они принимают как древнеславянское святилище_ т.н. бога Руйена. Некоторые русские ученые принимают этот храм как святилище Свентилы. Тем не менее, эта этимология выглядит довольно импровизированной



I remember my grandfather producing home-made sparkling wine by putting a couple of rice beans in each bottle and sealing it with wax. I agree, though, that руйно вино is something else. *Руен* has a meaning of *young and agile* in Bulgarian, so *young wine* for *руйно вино* should make a point. On the other hand, some folk songs refer to *руйни сълзи* (tears) and *руйна пот* (sweat), which should mean *profuse*. This, as well as your interpretation also make sense imo.

I prefer люта ракия though, no such problems there

Cheers


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## JoelBackman

Emmanon82 said:


> Duja has provided it above
> I only meant that ( as for me!) native-speakers can usually not only _understand_ but also _feel _the language.
> 
> There`s no doubt that every effort is really valuable
> 
> The _last (!) _question from me : Koljo - is it a full or a short form of the name?


That is very true 

Кољо (Kolyo, Koljo) is a short form of Никола (Nikola). It's a very common name here.


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## Kriviq

толку ми чини Кољо меракот

I`d definitely go for passion here.


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## Emmanon82

Koljo=Nikola?

Oh,really? ..
I`ve known a lad Nikola, it`s for sure he was a Macedonian, but our team called him "Niko"


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## Kriviq

This руйно вино issue haunted me, so I called an oenologist I happen to know and this is what he explained to me: руйно вино means clear, transparent wine. The contemporary Bulgarian word is бистър, бистро вино. This word once meant rapid, fast (compare with Russian бьiстрьiй) and as rapid water is usually clear water, although the initial meaning of the word was lost, water and wine remained бистър.


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## JoelBackman

Kriviq said:


> This руйно вино issue haunted me, so I called an oenologist I happen to know and this is what he explained to me: руйно вино means clear, transparent wine. The contemporary Bulgarian word is бистър, бистро вино. This word once meant rapid, fast (compare with Russian бьiстрьiй) and as rapid water is usually clear water, although the initial meaning of the word was lost, water and wine remained бистър.


My grandmother (from Strumitsa) confirmed that рујно means red.

There is a serbian text here
www+rastko+org.yu/rastko-ukr/au/popovic_crvena.html
(change + to . )
which says that the origin of the рујан adjective is the adjected characteristic of the color of plant named руј (Rhus cotinus).

It is possible though that we've found false friends of the slavist


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## Emmanon82

Kriviq said:


> руйно вино means clear, transparent wine. The contemporary Bulgarian word is бистър, бистро вино


 
I`m sorry for the intervention into this discussion as I`m not a native speaker of Macedonian/Bulgarian, but to my mind, there`s simlple logic of the ancient lyrics. "Transparent","clear" is more exact and less poetic  than "red" in this case. So I think _in this song _red is more natural.

Don`t you think so?


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## Kriviq

Emmanon82 said:


> I`m sorry for the intervention into this discussion as I`m not a native speaker of Macedonian/Bulgarian, but to my mind, there`s simlple logic of the ancient lyrics. "Transparent","clear" is more exact and less poetic than "red" in this case. So I think _in this song _red is more natural.
> 
> Don`t you think so?



I think the very fact that only a handful of people know the exact meaning of this widely used phrase makes it poetic enough; however, if I were to make the translation, I`d translate it as either "young" or "naughty" wine as there are arguments in favour of this version as well.


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## Duya

Kriviq said:


> I think the very fact that only a handful of people know the exact meaning of this widely used phrase makes it poetic enough; however, if I were to make the translation, I`d translate it as either "young" or "naughty" wine as there are arguments in favour of this version as well.



Actually, if you take a random sample of South Slavic folk songs, I'd say that you'll encounter "rujno vino" far more often than unqualified (or with some other adjective) "vino" -- it's so idiomatic that the original meaning is forgotten (as we demonstrated in this thread ). So, there's always a possibility that you _don't translate it at all_.


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## Emmanon82

Duya said:


> that you _don't translate it at all_.


Bravo! That`s the reason!


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## Emmanon82

Emmanon82 said:


> for the intervention


..for the _interference_, I guess


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## Bog Svarog

Emmanon82 said:


> "Не си го продавај Кољо чифликот"
> It seemes to be а Macedonian song, but I`ve also heard it in Bulgarian ( with different words)
> There are some words I can`t translate:
> 
> рујно, меракот,трлото
> 
> P.S. Is it correct to use cyrillic alphabet?


You may rejoice; a Macedonian has found your post on the world wide web!
I also happen to know how to utter a few words in English, which seems handy for this particular request. 

I will just go ahead and translate the whole song.
Text will be provided in Cyrillic, Latin, and English translation.
Не си го продавај Кољо чифликотмама не ме дава кољо за тебепо меани одиш Кољо, рујно вино пиешдома рано не си одиш да спиеш.Ne si go prodavaj Koljo čiflikot
Mama ne me dava Koljo za tebe
Po meani odiš Koljo, rujno vino pieš
Doma rano ne si odiš da spieš

Don't sell your manor, Koljo
Mother is not giving me away to you (as in giving her daughter's hand to Koljo, as used to be very common, and to some extent still is)
You are going to inns (as in taverns), you drink fine wine (fine here should be read as without clutter, clean, filtered, you get the idea).
You don't go home early to sleep

Колку ти чини Кољо чифликот,толку ми чини Кољо,лицетоKolku ti čini Koljo čiflikot
Tolku mi čini Koljo, liceto

As much as your manor costs, Koljo, (actually she says "how much?", but I prefer to translate it this way)
That much costs my face, Koljo

Tолку ми чини Кољо, merakotThat much costs мy merak, Koljo. See below

Не си го продавај Кољо трлото,Don't sell your byre, Koljo (this would be a cow shelter)

Tолку ми чини Кољо грлото.That much costs my throat, Koljo.
So, what have we learned here?

- Koljo is a farmer
- Koljo's aspired mother-in-law doesn't like him



Some additional notes:

- Strumica used to be a part of Bulgaria, and is still very Bulgarian-orientated, which is also reflected in their way of speaking.
When a grandmother from Strumica translates a Macedonian song for you, you shouldn't be surprised if it comes across quite Bulgarian.
- This is one of the songs that can be strictly tied to Macedonia proper. The Bulgarian versions that you've heard are later renditions.
- 100 years ago, what is now called Macedonia, used to be part of the Bulgarian consciousness, and the language used was still very close to the Bulgarian written standard, let alone the Western Bulgarian dialects.
Hence, old songs like this one, tend to be very archaical, and contain language that couldn't possibly be used by any Macedonian alive today. Also, due to various factors, the Macedonians didn't undergo the anti-Turk hysteria to the same extent as the Bulgarians, resulting in a lot of Turkish words remaining in Macedonian up to today.
So this results in: Bulgarians not being able to understand the songs because of Turkisms and Macedonianisms, and Macedonians not being able to understand the songs because of archaisms.
Yes, I use my Macedonian dictionary a lot for songs like this one.

Finally, "merak". This is quite a hard one.
One must keep in mind, that a lot of Turkish words can be multifunctional, and quite often the meaning has shifted slightly in Macedonian.
Some here have translated it as "desire", which is *wrong*.
Merak in Macedonian is a word that can be used to describe having an affinity with something, e.g. becoming happy by eating that certain thing. Feeling-wise, it is close to "joy".
Example: "It's Peter's merak to watch women". This would mean that watching women brings joy to Peter. This would in no way mean that this is his *desire* by definition, well, it could be, but then also not, oh well. One could think of a situation where Peter has just lost his wife. It will still be Peter's merak to watch women, but at the moment, he will not have the desire. If he continues to be like that however, people will say that it's no longer his merak to watch women.
Also, you have "meraklija", which is the personification of the word. There is no such word derived from "želba" (desire/wish).
This all however, is how it _feels_. If I were to think like a mathematician, I would say that merak is basically "joydesire", but I'm a native Macedonian speaker, and translating it as desire or joy feels wrong. Hence, it must be wrong. 


I will conclude with a link to a very similar song, which has quite a similar storyline; Aco is in love with "strawberry girl", and wants to sell all of his property so he can have her, but sadly, she won't even open her window for him, because she doesn't love him. How sad...
MOD EDIT: YouTube links are not allowed according to our rules (except in specially designated threads).
Svarog EDIT: I guess it wouldn't hurt if I just said "Youtube, Blaguno Dejce"?


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## DarkChild

Merak is still a very used colloquialism in Bulgarian. The Bulgarian equivalent is желание. In some instances it can mean being horny lol


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## iobyo

Bog Svarog said:
			
		

> - Strumica used to be a part of Bulgaria, and is still very Bulgarian-orientated, which is also reflected in their way of speaking.



How so?



			
				Bog Svarog said:
			
		

> the language used was still very close to the Bulgarian written standard, let alone the Western Bulgarian dialects.



What exactly are you referring to? Standard Macedonian took form in the first few decades of the 20th century. The language used in writing prior to that was either a local dialect or a neighboring language (Serbian, Greek or Bulgarian).



			
				Bog Svarog said:
			
		

> Hence, old songs like this one, tend to be very archaical, and contain language that couldn't possibly be used by any Macedonian alive today.



Apart from sounding folksy, there isn't anything archaic about this song.



			
				Bog Svarog said:
			
		

> Macedonians not being able to understand the songs because of archaisms.



We do understand archaisms precisely because of folk songs.



			
				Bog Svarog said:
			
		

> and quite often the meaning has shifted slightly in Macedonian.



Quite true. It's like how _ќе(и)ф _and _мерак _can at times come close to meaning the same thing. 



			
				Bog Svarog said:
			
		

> Some here have translated it as "desire", which is *wrong*.



What about _што ми е мерак полјак да бидам_ or _многу мерак имам, бабо, по твоето моме_?


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## Bog Svarog

iobyo said:


> How so?
> 
> 
> 
> What exactly are you referring to? Standard Macedonian took form in the first few decades of the 20th century. The language used in writing prior to that was either a local dialect or a neighboring language (Serbian, Greek or Bulgarian).


I'm saying that Macedonian and Bulgarian were once one language.
Hence, the further you go back in time, the more they are alike.
Especially pre 1991, pre 1945, pre 1913, and pre 1875.



> Apart from sounding folksy, there isn't anything archaic about this song.


Oh come on, you can't be serious! Haha! 
Meani? Rujno vino? Čini? Megjite? Even my mother would have to look those words up in a dictionary. Besides that, the theme is also almost prehistoric. I mean, Koljo thinks about selling his property to get a woman? He has to pay for her? Even with his sheep? And the woman needs to be given by her mother?
Both the language, AND cultural setting are what I'd place under "archaic".
Oh and one more thing: I *dare* you to find me somebody who they call "Koljo". ;-)



> We do understand archaisms precisely because of folk songs.


Yes indeed. This song alone has taught me 6 new words.



> Quite true. It's like how _ќе(и)ф _and _мерак _can at times come close to meaning the same thing.


And Merak means something completely different in Turkish. 



> What about _што ми е мерак полјак да бидам_ or _многу мерак имам, бабо, по твоето моме_?


Well, apart from me never having heard anybody say something like that, if you say it like that, it could be "desire".
But still: "mnogu želba imam, babo, po tvoeto mome"???. This sounds strange to me...but that could be because I'm from Skopje.
It clearly isn't in Skopje dialect, that's for sure.


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## iobyo

Bog Svarog said:
			
		

> I'm saying that Macedonian and Bulgarian were once one language.



How does the saying go, a language is a dialect with an army and navy?  



			
				Bog Svarog said:
			
		

> Hence, the further you go back in time, the more they are alike.
> Especially pre 1991, pre 1945, pre 1913, and pre 1875.



How was Standard Macedonian closer to Standard Bulgarian before 1991?



			
				Bog Svarog said:
			
		

> Oh come on, you can't be serious! Haha!
> Meani? Rujno vino? Čini? Megjite? Even my mother would have to look those words up in a dictionary.



Well, _меана _is seldom used for the actual name of an establishment (at least outside of Ohrid), but it's still very much alive. A person might refer to their favorite restaurant or bar as a _меана _affectionately or even tongue-in-cheek. That means it's far from being an archaism yet. 

_Рујно вино _is a mostly poetic idiom and has probably always been such. I wouldn't imagine anyone not knowing what it meant. 

What would you use in place of _чини_ then?

_Меѓа _is perfectly normal word for me. 



			
				Bog Svarog said:
			
		

> AND cultural setting are what I'd place under "archaic".



Hence why I called it 'folksy'. 



			
				Bog Svarog said:
			
		

> Oh and one more thing: I *dare* you to find me somebody who they call "Koljo". ;-)



One of my maternal uncles, my paternal grandfather (whose legal name is actually _Кољо_) and, off the top of my head, a few more non-relatives. Like JoelBackman said, it's a fairly popular name here.



			
				Bog Svarog said:
			
		

> But still: "mnogu želba imam, babo, po tvoeto mome"???.



Because that's almost ungrammatical. You need to use a word which is abstract (с_траст_, for example): _многу страст имам, бабо, по твоето моме._ 



			
				Bog Svarog said:
			
		

> It clearly isn't in Skopje dialect, that's for sure.



If it isn't too personal, where exactly did you go to school if not in a Macedonian school? Perhaps you can PM me if it's not a problem.


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## Bog Svarog

iobyo said:


> How was Standard Macedonian closer to Standard Bulgarian before 1991?


Same as with Croatian and Serbian since the breakup of SFRJ.
The Macedonian "independant" feeling got a lot stronger since 1991, and Macedonians have tried even harder to distance themselves from Bulgarians in an ethnic sense. At least that's the impression that I'm getting.
I like to use 1991 because of the significance of the independance.
Although I can admit to a lot of Serbianisms having been discouraged after 1991, which automatically results in Macedonian leaning towards Bulgarian more.



> Well, _меана _is seldom used for the actual name of an establishment (at least outside of Ohrid), but it's still very much alive. A person might refer to their favorite restaurant or bar as a _меана _affectionately or even tongue-in-cheek. That means it's far from being an archaism yet.


Well, all that I can say is: In all my life, I have not heard any one person use this word.
I would surely remember it, because it sounds so strange in my ears.

_



			Рујно вино
		
Click to expand...

_


> is a mostly poetic idiom and has probably always been such. I wouldn't imagine anyone not knowing what it meant.


Yes, but outside of the poetic setting, I wouldn't consider it normal.
If some Skopian would tell me that he had some great rujno vino, I would take it that he's trying to be funny.
And trust me, I've seen much, much, oh yes very much drinking of wine in my life in Skopje. Never have I heard somebody say that it was rujno.



> What would you use in place of _чини_ then?


As with meani: I have never heard anybody from Skopje use it like that.
At best "mi se čini deka.....". I will eat my socks on the day that a Skopian won't use the word "košta" for "costs".
I've known of "čini" in this case for all my life, but it has always had an archaic connotation for me.



> _Меѓа _is perfectly normal word for me.


Again: never heard anybody use it. 



> One of my maternal uncles, my paternal grandfather (whose legal name is actually _Кољо_) and, off the top of my head, a few more non-relatives. Like JoelBackman said, it's a fairly popular name here.


Haha, amazing! 



> If it isn't too personal, where exactly did you go to school if not in a Macedonian school? Perhaps you can PM me if it's not a problem.


I went to school in Amsterdam.


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## iobyo

Bog Svarog said:
			
		

> Same as with Croatian and Serbian since the breakup of SFRJ.



The situation with the BCS standards is quite different and very complex.



			
				Bog Svarog said:
			
		

> The Macedonian "independant" feeling got a lot stronger since 1991, and Macedonians have tried even harder to distance themselves from Bulgarians in an ethnic sense.



Sure. Nationalism definitely spiked after independence, there's no denying. The standard language, on the other hand, has changed very little.



			
				Bog Svarog said:
			
		

> At least that's the impression that I'm getting.
> I like to use 1991 because of the significance of the independance.
> Although I can admit to a lot of Serbianisms having been discouraged after 1991, which automatically results in Macedonian leaning towards Bulgarian more.



Apart from the expected augmentation of technical and specialized terminology (from English, for example), there has been no noticeable change. I'd go as far as saying little has changed since the 50s. But don't take my word for it, I'll PM you a link to some PDF repositories. 



			
				Bog Svarog said:
			
		

> Yes, but outside of the poetic setting, I wouldn't consider it normal.



Well, no. It is, for all intents and purposes, an idiom.



			
				Bog Svarog said:
			
		

> I will eat my socks on the day that a Skopian won't use the word "košta" for "costs".



I can appreciate that but _чини _is the only accepted word in the standard, and every educated person will know it and know when to use it.



			
				Bog Svarog said:
			
		

> Haha, amazing!



Maybe I cheated a little. My grandfather is actually from Greece. So when he arrived in Skopje as a very small child, he only knew his nickname. This was a very common practice and also why once-nicknames like _Гоце _became names in their own right.


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## Bog Svarog

iobyo said:


> Well, no. It is, for all intents and purposes, an idiom.


Yes, but we were discussing whether it's archaic.
From my Skopian point of view, "rujno vino" is archaic. 



> I can appreciate that but _чини _is the only accepted word in the standard, and every educated person will know it and know when to use it.


Yes, but again, we were discussing whether it's archaic.
I can assure you that even in the higher educated classes of Skopians, using "чини" just sounds awkward. If I hear a Skopian say "колку чини точаков?", I will actually start laughing at him. From homeless bums to succesful college graduates and businessmen; the proper word is "кошта".
Yes everybody knows чини, ofcourse, but it has an archaic connotation to it.



> Maybe I cheated a little. My grandfather is actually from Greece. So when he arrived in Skopje as a very small child, he only knew his nickname. This was a very common practice and also why once-nicknames like _Гоце _became names in their own right.


I had a neighbour who was written as "Ѓорче" in his passport.
I couldn't believe it back then, and still can't believe it. But it still makes me laugh whenever I think about it.


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## TriglavNationalPark

MOD NOTE: Please avoid getting off-topic.


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## iobyo

Bog Svarog said:
			
		

> "rujno vino" is archaic.



I guess so.



			
				Bog Svarog said:
			
		

> Yes, but again, we were discussing whether it's archaic.





			
				Bog Svarog said:
			
		

> but it has an archaic connotation to it.



_Чини _is most definitely not archaic. At best it would be bookish or awkward, as you say, for someone from Skopje. It is after all the only word we would use in writing, be one from Skopje or elsewhere. That, by definition, excludes it from being archaic.


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## Bog Svarog

iobyo said:


> _Чини _is most definitely not archaic. At best it would be bookish or awkward, as you say, for someone from Skopje. It is after all the only word we would use in writing, be one from Skopje or elsewhere. That, by definition, excludes it from being archaic.


As we are indeed getting a bit off-topic, I'll reply to this in public one more time (although I'll gladly continue in private  ).

I can assure you, that I would *never* use "чини" even in written language. Writing "чини" to somebody would just make me feel pretentious and awkward.
It would be quite a revelation to me, if Skopians would regularly use "чини" in written language.
I must be honest though, and confess to only writing with Skopians through the internet, while only talking to Skopians in Macedonia, so perhaps I'm not a good reference.

Then again, I could just be an ignorant and arrogant Skopian, for whom the "Macedonian world" ends at Skopje's city limits.


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