# Hindi: poison



## biocrite

Just wondering - how do you say poison in Hindi?

The closest I could think of was "shiraap" but. . . that's not right, right?

Gaurav.


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## panjabigator

The word I'd use is ज़हर /zahar/.


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## panjabigator

Actually, I just thought of another one:  विष /viSh/.  I can't remember what shiraap means...can you use it in a sentence?


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## Alijsh

panjabigator said:


> The word I'd use is ज़हर /zahar/.


How interesting. It's *zahr* in Persian. We also have *sam* and the literary word *sharang*.


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## linguist786

*zahr* is used in Urdu too


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## panjabigator

What is it in Gujarati?


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## Bienvenidos

And "zâr" is the same exact thing in Persian, too!    AMAZING!!


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## linguist786

panjabigator said:


> What is it in Gujarati?


Funny you ask. There's two words - one's from Arabic, the other from Hindi 

"zer" and "vish" (ઝેર & વિષ)


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## Lugubert

panjabigator said:


> Actually, I just thought of another one: विष /viSh/. I can't remember what shiraap means...can you use it in a sentence?


विषं /viShaM/ is good Sanskrit. Shiraap puzzles me too. Unless you are a teetotaller and refer to शराब /sharaab/ 'wine, alcohol'...


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## cherine

Alijsh said:


> How interesting. It's *zahr* in Persian. We also have *sam* and the literary word *sharang*.


Interesting indeed  sam reminds me of the Arabic word *summ* (stressed m), plural *sumúm*.


linguist786 said:


> Funny you ask. There's two words - one's from Arabic, the other from Hindi
> 
> "zer" and "vish" (ઝેર & વિષ)


Which is from Arabic ? zer ? from which word is it taken ?


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## Alijsh

cherine said:


> Interesting indeed  sam reminds me of the Arabic word *summ* (stressed m), plural *sumúm*.


yes, *samm* is an Arabic loanword but we don't pronounce double consonants twice at the end of the word. 



cherine said:


> Which is from Arabic ? zer ? from which word is it taken ?


I don't think it's from Arabic. It must be shortened from *zahar* that dear panjabigator told.


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## linguist786

cherine said:


> Which is from Arabic ? zer ? from which word is it taken ?


Sorry I meant to say Persian!


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## tonyspeed

Bis, is the orginal prakritic-derived Hindi word for poison.

H بس बिस _bis_ [S. विष], s.m. Poison, venom, bane  (=_zahr_); the vegetable poison _Aconitum ferox_ (syn. _baćnāg_); (_met._), anything bitter, disagreeable, spiteful, &c.:—_bis ugalnā_, v.n. _lit_. 'To vomit venom'; to say venomous or spiteful things (of), speak ill (of), malign, revile, sneer at; to disburden the mind or the conscience; to have (one's) say; to take revenge:—_bis bonā_ (-_meṅ_), To sow discord, make mischief (between):—_bis-dhar_, adj. & s.m. Poisonous; a venomous serpent; snake:—_bis denā_ (-_ko_), To give poison (to), to poison:—_bis khānā_, v.n. To swallow or take poison:—_bis-khaprā_, _bis-khoprā_ (S. _visha_+_kharpara_+_kah_), s.m. _lit_. 'Poison-headed'; the medicinal plant _Trianthema pentandra_, or _T. obcordatum_; the plant _Mezoneurum cucullatum_ (Desfontaines), or _Cæsalpinia cucullata_ (Roxb.);—a species of lizard, about half a yard long, which is generally regarded as venomous, _Lacerta iguana_:—_bis-kī puṛiyā_, _bis-khān_, _bis-gāṅṭh_, s.m.f. Viper, mischievous person, devil, demon:—_bis milānā_ (-_meṅ_), To mingle poison (with), to poison, embitter, corrupt, vitiate, spoil:—_bis-may_, adj. Consisting of poison, poisonous.


How widely is it still used colloquially in Hindi and Urdu? Or has it been completely replaced by zahar at this point?


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## Qureshpor

tonyspeed said:


> Bis, is the orginal prakritic-derived Hindi word for poison.
> 
> H بس बिस _bis_ [S. विष], s.m. Poison, venom, bane (=_zahr_); the vegetable poison _Aconitum ferox_ (syn. _baćnāg_); (_met._), anything bitter, disagreeable, spiteful, &c.:—_bis ugalnā_, v.n. _lit_. 'To vomit venom'; to say venomous or spiteful things (of), speak ill (of), malign, revile, sneer at; to disburden the mind or the conscience; to have (one's) say; to take revenge:—_bis bonā_ (-_meṅ_), To sow discord, make mischief (between):—_bis-dhar_, adj. & s.m. Poisonous; a venomous serpent; snake:—_bis denā_ (-_ko_), To give poison (to), to poison:—_bis khānā_, v.n. To swallow or take poison:—_bis-khaprā_, _bis-khoprā_ (S. _visha_+_kharpara_+_kah_), s.m. _lit_. 'Poison-headed'; the medicinal plant _Trianthema pentandra_, or _T. obcordatum_; the plant _Mezoneurum cucullatum_ (Desfontaines), or _Cæsalpinia cucullata_ (Roxb.);—a species of lizard, about half a yard long, which is generally regarded as venomous, _Lacerta iguana_:—_bis-kī puṛiyā_, _bis-khān_, _bis-gāṅṭh_, s.m.f. Viper, mischievous person, devil, demon:—_bis milānā_ (-_meṅ_), To mingle poison (with), to poison, embitter, corrupt, vitiate, spoil:—_bis-may_, adj. Consisting of poison, poisonous.
> How widely is it still used colloquially in Hindi and Urdu? Or has it been completely replaced by zahar at this point?


"zahr" is certainly the first choice in Urdu but "bis" is not unknow and is used especially in poetry.


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## marrish

^ I agree with this statement. _zahr_ by preference in Urdu but I have heard _bis milaanaa_.


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## UrduMedium

Very interesting. I did not know the word _bis _until today. But it puts in perfect perspective _bis kii gaaNTh _(a treacherous person), a word/usage I've been familiar with for a long time.


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## Qureshpor

UrduMedium said:


> Very interesting. I did not know the word _bis _until today. But it puts in perfect perspective _bis kii gaaNTh _(a treacherous person), a word/usage I've been familiar with for a long time.



naagan kaa is zulf kii mujh se rang nah puuchho, kyaa Haasil 
xvaah thii kaalii, xvaah vuh piilii, *bis* ne apnaa kaam kiyaa 

Sauda

sach kah duuN ai barhaman gar tuu buraa nah maane 
tere sanam-kadoN ke but ho gaye puraane 

kuchh fikr phhuuT kii kar, maalii hai tuu chaman kaa 
buuToN ko phuuNk Daalaa is *bis*-bharii havaa ne 

Iqbal


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## greatbear

In Hindi, "zaihar" is the most common word, but quite often used is also "vish": what is unknown in speech at least is rather "bis".


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## gagun

In urdu 

poison=






بس  bis / سم  sam / سنکھیا    sañkhia / زہر  zaehr


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## Qureshpor

^
I thought saNkhiyaa (arsenic) could be used as a poisonous substance but it in itself does not mean "poison". You have misspelt saNkhiyaa by the way.


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## hindiurdu

I think the 'shiraap' might be 'shraap', which means a curse as opposed to poison. Maybe in some dialectical variation it has come to mean poison. Anything is possible. sharaab → shiraap doesn't feel like a typical HU deterioration to me - more like Turkish actually (zainab → zeynep), although I have heard some older illiterate HU speakers say 'kitaap' instead of 'kitaab'. I don't know any speaker of Hindi or Urdu who really says 'zahr' in normal speech - your mileage may vary. At the very least it is zehr and usually there is an explicit or faint schwa insertion: zeh(ə)r. About bis/vish: Bis is more natural to HU but I think it is more or less dead in modern Hindi as it has been reSanskritized to vish, but not to the fully Sanskrit viṣh.


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## Qureshpor

hindiurdu said:


> I think the 'shiraap' might be 'shraap', which means a curse as opposed to poison. Maybe in some dialectical variation it has come to mean poison. Anything is possible. sharaab → shiraap doesn't feel like a typical HU deterioration to me - more like Turkish actually (zainab → zeynep), although I have heard some older illiterate HU speakers say 'kitaap' instead of 'kitaab'. I don't know any speaker of Hindi or Urdu who really says 'zahr' in normal speech - your mileage may vary. At the very least it is zehr and usually there is an explicit or faint schwa insertion: zeh(ə)r. About bis/vish: Bis is more natural to HU but I think it is more or less dead in modern Hindi as it has been reSanskritized to vish, but not to the fully Sanskrit viṣh.


Interesting and surprising.

hindiurdu SaaHib, one normally writes in the manner the language is written. In both Urdu and Hindi, the written form is zahr but I am aware that the normal educated pronunciation is "zehr" in Urdu.*

* All the underlined words in your post are not written as they are pronounced!


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## greatbear

QURESHPOR said:


> In both Urdu *and Hindi*, the written form is zahr but I am aware that the normal educated pronunciation is "zehr" in Urdu.


(my bolds)

Really? Since when? As far as Hindi is concerned, it is written as ज़हर, which rhymes with शहर: I don't see any zahr business happening in Hindi writing.


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## hindiurdu

QURESHPOR said:


> Interesting and surprising.



This was in connection with kitaab → kitaap. I have noticed this with West UP / Rohilkhandi totally-illiterate people who are older. They also say 'hisaap' (hisaab), kharaap (xaraab), kalap (club), etc. By no means universal but it is common enough that I am sure you will find it even in Rohilkhandi-origin people in, say, Karachi. In my mind, I cluster this with another odd distortion v (only sometimes and only in word initial position) → r. vish → ris. Both are on the wane I am certain and are non-universal. I have never heard anyone younger talk like that.




QURESHPOR said:


> hindiurdu SaaHib, one normally writes in the manner the language is written. In both Urdu and Hindi, the written form is zahr but I am aware that the normal educated pronunciation is "zehr" in Urdu.* * All the underlined words in your post are not written as they are pronounced!



Correct, this bends the phonetic nature of Nagri and is pronounced at odds with Urdu writing too. But it is the usual Cəh → Ceh pattern (C = consonant, ə = schwa). Rah jao → Reh jao. Nah(ə)r → Neher/Nehar/Nehr. (Do)Pahar → (Do)Pehar/(Do)Peher. Kahnaa (to speak) → Kehnaa. Sahnaa (to tolerate/bear) → Sehnaa. In all these cases, what is written vs what is spoken is different. It's a very powerful pattern in Western HU.


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## hindiurdu

Also, if indeed shiraap is basically shraap (just a conjecture on my part), it might be an example of the other tendency in some parts of HU to insert an 'i' in a leading compound consonant. glaas (glass) → gilaas. bhram (illusion) → bhiram (some speakers, more commonly bharam). pramukh → pirmukh (parmukh is more common).


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## gagun

does शिराप *(**Śirāp)ﺷﹻﺮﺍﭖ- *means sirap or syrup
but sirap=syrup=beverage(origin arabic word  'شراب'Śarāb)


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## hindiurdu

QURESHPOR said:


> * All the underlined words in your post are not written as they are pronounced!



LOL. I only now got the joke - I'm a tubelight


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## hindiurdu

gagun said:


> does शिराप (Śirāp)ﺷﹻﺮﺍﭖ- means sirap or syrup
> but sirap=syrup=beverage(origin arabic word 'شراب'Śarāb)



Possible, I suppose, but very unlikely. HU speakers all know what sharaab means. Syrup, not so much. Thank you for the info though because I never knew that 'syrup' came from 'sharaab', though it makes perfect sense that it would!


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## Qureshpor

^ gagun Jii, it seems that you and Alfaaz SaaHib are competing against each other, on the opposite ends of the font size scale! Could you please make your fonts normal size please, if possible at all?


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## tonyspeed

QURESHPOR said:


> hindiurdu SaaHib, one normally writes in the manner the language is written. In both Urdu and Hindi, the written form is zahr but I am aware that the normal educated pronunciation is "zehr" in Urdu.*





greatbear said:


> (my bolds)  Really? Since when? As far as Hindi is concerned, it is written as ज़हर, which rhymes with शहर: I don't see any zahr business happening in Hindi writing.


  To clarify, it is written zahar in Hindi, without a conjunct. This is usually the case for all Hindi words of Persian origin that end in ra. Except, I have seen fikar spelt as fikr but still pronounced as fik-r / fikar, not fikra.


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## Qureshpor

tonyspeed said:


> To clarify, it is written zahar in Hindi, without a conjunct. This is usually the case for all Hindi words of Persian origin that end in ra. Except, I have seen fikar spelt as fikr but still pronounced as fik-r / fikar, not fikra.


Please type the conjuncts in Nagri in Google for zahr, shahr, shahd, fikr etc and see if you get any returns. More important, check how Oxford Hindi Dictionary has transcribed these words in Roman.


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## tonyspeed

QURESHPOR said:


> Please type the conjuncts in Nagri in Google for zahr, shahr, shahd, fikr etc and see if you get any returns. More important, check how Oxford Hindi Dictionary has transcribed these words in Roman.



I not quite understanding you. What does the romanisation of the words in a dictionary have to do with the subject at hand?


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## gagun

Normally,we pronounce it like zahar in Hindi or in Urdu but actually it was zahr in Persian. If i am wrong please suggest me


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## hindiurdu

gagun said:


> Normally,we pronounce it like zahar in Hindi or in Urdu but actually it was zahr in Persian. If i am wrong please suggest me



Hi Gagun ji, as I had flagged earlier, in Hindi, Urdu, Punjabi and several other languages, if you have a "consonant-a-h" situation, the middle 'a' gets transformed to "e" in normal speech. So, "rahna" is actually pronounced "rehna", similarly "bahan" (sister) is actually pronounced "behen", "behan" or "behn". "Zahar" is pronounced "zehr" or "zehar". Most Hindi speakers will perceive a "zahar" or "bahan" pronunciation to be an Eastern accent, i.e. Bihari/Bhojpuri, etc. The 'e' mentioned above is the one in "pen" as opposed to the 'ए' sound (as in pain). If you make it a complete ए, most Hindi speakers will perceive it to be a Far Western/Gujarati accent. 

YouTube: If you are Indian, you might YouTube for 'Hemanta Mukherjee::Sabarmati Ke Sant Tu Ne Kar Diya Kamal' and listen at around 4:15. That is Asha Bhonsle and she says the word 'zeher' like Hindi-speakers would normally say it. She says "Amrut" before then though like a Marathi speaker. Hindi natives would say "Amrit". Note also that the song is transcribed in the description by a clearly non-Hindi native (pulon instead of phulon, kadamon instead of qadmon/kadmon, etc).


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## marrish

hindiurdu said:


> Note also that the song is transcribed in the description by a clearly non-Hindi native (pulon instead of phulon, kadamon instead of qadmon/kadmon, etc).


This contribution is about Hindi, but let it be noted that in Urdu, for a change, it *is* _qad*a*moN._ For the rest, I agree with all your submissions, leaving ''pain'' for ए apart.


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## marrish

tonyspeed said:


> I not quite understanding you. What does the romanisation of the words in a dictionary have to do with the subject at hand?


I had once the pleasure of going through the pages of the mentioned dictionary and I don't think it is the matter of Romanization, of course you can say more about it because I don't have this dictionary at hand. But isn't it so that the Roman characters serve for the pronunciation?


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## UrduMedium

marrish said:


> This contribution is about Hindi, but let it be noted that in Urdu, for a change, it *is* _qad*a*moN._ For the rest, I agree with all your submissions, leaving ''pain'' for ए apart.



marrish saahab- _qadamoN _sounds rather unnatural. What is this based on? I do not ever recall hearing this pronunciation. Have you? Possible to share some instances here?


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## marrish

I agree up to the point of the collquial speech but in our literary language it has been always _qadamoN. _I'm not the one who has diligence in poetry or literature but believe me or not, only qadamoN fits to the meter. This is my opinion for which I come up personally and I know old women in my family who never dare pronounce it without [a]. They are of course old so it doesn't mean that the language can not evolve into any direction it wishes to.


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## Qureshpor

UrduMedium said:


> marrish saahab- _qadamoN _sounds rather unnatural. What is this based on? I do not ever recall hearing this pronunciation. Have you? Possible to share some instances here?


UM SaaHib, I understand your unease perfectly well and I can say that it will not be too long before we stop hearing and reading aad*a*mii and other such words with a medial zabar in similar situations. My answer here is going to be in your support as well as marrish saaHib's.

Finn Thiesen in his "A Manual of Classical Persian Prosody"'s Urdu section (Chapter 24 page 188 Section 284) says.... 

"In poetry, however the poets take the utmost care to employ the "correct" forms. Since the Urdu poets were also Persian scholars, but unacquainted with Sanskrit, this means that Persian loanwords in poetry revert to their original form, whereas Sanskrit loanwords are used in their popular form. 

*bharam* khul jaae zaalim tere qaamat kii daraazii kaa 
agar us turrah-i-pech-o-KHam kaa pech-o-KHam nikle

Ghalib

The discrepancy between the pronunciation of Persian (and Arabic) loanwords in the spoken language and in the poetic diction is often surprising. Thus subaH and shama3 of the spoken language revert to "subHa and sham3a {terminal a =niim fatHah} in poetry, as in the following verse in which 3aish bravely faces the hardships and infirmities of old age: 

ai *sham3a* subHa hotii hai rotii hai kis liye 
thoRii sii rah gaii hai use bhii guzaar deN"

On page 203 he adds... 

"As might be expected popular forms with anaptyctic vowels or suppressed a's turn up here and there in poetry. Instances are, however, surprisingly rare. In the following two examples we find *taraH* for *tarHa* and *qadmoN* for *qadamoN*.

Ham-suxan teshah ne farhaad ko shiiriiN se kiyaa 
jis *taraH* kaa kih kisii meN ho kamaal achhchhaa hai".

Ghalib 

3arz kii maiN ne kih ai gulshan-i-fitrat kii bahaar 
daulat-o-3izzat-o-iimaaN tire *qadmoN* pih nisaar

Akbar Illahaabaadii

But this is poetry and prose is not poetry. However, here are a couple of examples of prose from janaab-i-Sarwar 'aalam Raz, who is an Urdu poet and an Urdu speaker from Jabalpur, India. Below is his own transcribed material.

magar yeh mandir itnaa ChoTaa kaise ho gayaa? pehle to baRaa azeemush.shaan huaa kartaa thaa. maiN darvaaza khol kar mandir meiN daaKhil ho jaataa hooN. ooNche chabootre par bhagvaan kee moortee ke *qadmoN* meiN aik aurat peelee saaree se sar Dhakey Ramayan kaa paaTh kar rahee hai. voh mujhe aik nazar uThaa kar dekhtee hai aur phir paaTh meiN mashGhool ho jaatee hai. yaa Allah! maiN is mandir meiN kyaa kar rahaa hooN? is aurat meiN mujhe Bua kee soorat kyoN nazar aa rahee hai? yeh Ram Leelaa kaa maidaan mere *qadamoN* se kyoN lipTaa jaa rahaa hai? 

https://groups.google.com/group/alt...c6b7089226?lnk=gst&q=qadamon#50382fc6b7089226

phir us ne Jagir Singh kaa haath pakaR liyaa aur taqreeban kheeNch kar use storage room se nikaal le gayaa. kamre meiN baRaa saa taalaa Daal kar voh office kee taraf baRh gayaa. mujh ko Jagir Singh kee to Khabar naheeN lekin Sohni ko aik baar phir dekhne kee Khwaahish meiN mere *qadamoN * meiN to yaqeenan tezee pedaa ho gayee thee! 

https://groups.google.com/group/alt...db5d6b8735?lnk=gst&q=qadamon#1fb09cdb5d6b8735

I would suggest that his first "qadmoN" is a typo and he actually says and writes "qadamoN".


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## UrduMedium

^ Thanks for the detailed reply. However, since we are talking about pronunciation, some audio samples will help. Here's a couple to consider:

1. Esp for you  by Muhammad Rafi Youtube addon /watch?v=Edx8M5wEQkE at about 0:30 
2. More M. Rafi /watch?v=0CS4azcK3qo at 0:45
3. One more ... /watch?v=MZZog3TVtxA at 0:33

Hope you enjoy these


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## marrish

QURESHPOR said:


> UM SaaHib, I understand your unease perfectly well and I can say that it will not be too long before we stop hearing and reading aad*a*mii and other such words with a medial zabar in similar situations. My answer here is going to be in your support as well as marrish saaHib's.
> 
> Finn Thiesen in his "A Manual of Classical Persian Prosody"'s Urdu section (Chapter 24 page 188 Section 284) says....
> 
> "In poetry, however the poets take the utmost care to employ the "correct" forms. Since the Urdu poets were also Persian scholars, but unacquainted with Sanskrit, this means that Persian loanwords in poetry revert to their original form, whereas Sanskrit loanwords are used in their popular form.
> 
> *bharam* khul jaae zaalim tere qaamat kii daraazii kaa
> agar us turrah-i-pech-o-KHam kaa pech-o-KHam nikle
> 
> Ghalib
> 
> The discrepancy between the pronunciation of Persian (and Arabic) loanwords in the spoken language and in the poetic diction is often surprising. Thus subaH and shama3 of the spoken language revert to "subHa and sham3a {terminal a =niim fatHah} in poetry, as in the following verse in which 3aish bravely faces the hardships and infirmities of old age:
> 
> ai *sham3a* subHa hotii hai rotii hai kis liye
> thoRii sii rah gaii hai use bhii guzaar deN"
> 
> On page 203 he adds...
> 
> "As might be expected popular forms with anaptyctic vowels or suppressed a's turn up here and there in poetry. Instances are, however, surprisingly rare. In the following two examples we find *taraH* for *tarHa* and *qadmoN* for *qadamoN*.
> 
> Ham-suxan teshah ne farhaad ko shiiriiN se kiyaa
> jis *taraH* kaa kih kisii meN ho kamaal achhchhaa hai".
> 
> Ghalib
> 
> 3arz kii maiN ne kih ai gulshan-i-fitrat kii bahaar
> daulat-o-3izzat-o-iimaaN tire *qadmoN* pih nisaar
> 
> Akbar Illahaabaadii
> 
> But this is poetry and prose is not poetry. However, here are a couple of examples of prose from janaab-i-Sarwar 'aalam Raz, who is an Urdu poet and an Urdu speaker from Jabalpur, India. Below is his own transcribed material.
> 
> magar yeh mandir itnaa ChoTaa kaise ho gayaa? pehle to baRaa azeemush.shaan huaa kartaa thaa. maiN darvaaza khol kar mandir meiN daaKhil ho jaataa hooN. ooNche chabootre par bhagvaan kee moortee ke *qadmoN* meiN aik aurat peelee saaree se sar Dhakey Ramayan kaa paaTh kar rahee hai. voh mujhe aik nazar uThaa kar dekhtee hai aur phir paaTh meiN mashGhool ho jaatee hai. yaa Allah! maiN is mandir meiN kyaa kar rahaa hooN? is aurat meiN mujhe Bua kee soorat kyoN nazar aa rahee hai? yeh Ram Leelaa kaa maidaan mere *qadamoN* se kyoN lipTaa jaa rahaa hai?
> 
> https://groups.google.com/group/alt...c6b7089226?lnk=gst&q=qadamon#50382fc6b7089226
> 
> phir us ne Jagir Singh kaa haath pakaR liyaa aur taqreeban kheeNch kar use storage room se nikaal le gayaa. kamre meiN baRaa saa taalaa Daal kar voh office kee taraf baRh gayaa. mujh ko Jagir Singh kee to Khabar naheeN lekin Sohni ko aik baar phir dekhne kee Khwaahish meiN mere *qadamoN * meiN to yaqeenan tezee pedaa ho gayee thee!
> 
> https://groups.google.com/group/alt...db5d6b8735?lnk=gst&q=qadamon#1fb09cdb5d6b8735
> 
> I would suggest that his first "qadmoN" is a typo and he actually says and writes "qadamoN".


I am most revered with your substantialization of what I have mentioned in the previous posts. I support and confirm what you have been kind to submit. 

UM SaaHib, please do take notice that I have acknowledged the colloquial pronunciation.


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## UrduMedium

marrish said:


> ... UM SaaHib, please do take notice that I have acknowledged the colloquial pronunciation.



Thanks, marrish saahab. But humbly, I was not referring to only colloquial pronunciation. How about literary?

For example, please try reading the following from Iftikhar Arif, and let me know how _qadmoN _and _qadamoN _fit in the last _misra3_. To me, reading it _qadamoN _would be akin to reading _Harf _in the second _misra3 _as _Haraf_. Seems to seriously make the rhythm off balance, at least to my ears. My $.02.

ہوس لقمہ تر کھا گئی لہجے کا جلال
اب کسی حرف کو حُرمت نہیں ملنے والی
گھر سے نکلے ہوئے بیٹوں کا مقدر معلوم
ماں کے *قدموں* میں بھی جنت نہیں ملنے والی

havas-i-luqma-i-tar khaa ga'ii lehje kaa jalaal
ab kisii Harf ko Hurmat nahiiN milne waalii
ghar se nikle hue beToN kaa muqaddar ma3luum
maaN ke qadmoN meN bhii jannat nahiiN milne waalii


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## greatbear

In any case, aren't we going off-topic? I thought the thread was to discuss poison, and not "qadmoN", "aadmii", "maulvii" and the like. Was it?


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## UrduMedium

^ True. I declare my innings ...


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## Qureshpor

UrduMedium said:


> ^ True. I declare my innings ...


You ought to have declared your innings after post 40!

Two points:

1) qadamoN is relevant to this thread because there was a discussion on zahr/zehar. But, I do accept we need to revert back to the thread topic.

2) In post 40, it had been made clear that though in Urdu poetry, strictly speaking, qadamoN is what should be and has been used yet, there are rare exceptions when this tradition has been broken to accommodate the colloquial pronunciation. The examples provided were Ghalib and Akbar Ilahabadi, the latter incorporating "qadmoN". So when we have Akbar Ilahabadi's example in front of us, Iftikhar Arif's additional quote is unnecessary and it does not take the argument any further.

Thank you for the songs. In singing, words tend to get pronounced according to the rhythm which may not necessarily go with the correct pronunciation. I think if I looked up hard enough I could possibly find "qadamoN" too in a song. But I think it is unnecessary to quote songs when no one is denying the existence of "qadmoN" in speech while marrish SaaHib is saying that elderly ladies* in his family are very strict in their preservation of the a in qadamoN. I feel we ought to give him the benefit of the doubt and accept that people also use "qadamoN", though with their passing away, this manner of speech will be assigned to the pages of History.

Sarwar Raz SaaHib's passages, at least to my mind, also indicate that in his speech qadamoN is the norm.  

* People may ask concerning this significance. I don't remember the names of two Persian poets (one Indo-Persian) and the other an Iranian immigrant to India having an argument about what is correct and what is not. The Iranian chap was saying that his idiom is based on the speech of the old ladies in his household. The Indian poet said, well we go by what Khaqaani (a well known Iranian master) has written. The Iranian poet replied, "He too learnt his language from old ladies of his family"!


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## UrduMedium

^ I thought QP saahab you loved quoting M. Rafi to settle pronunciation questions!! I'm confused. Did I get that wrong? This is so prevalent, I do not even feel the need to quote anything. Correct?

I must have missed the elderly ladies comment from marrish saahab. I totally respect that. It's just that I have such counter evidence too, and feel it's not fair to use one such evidence over other to declare something colloquial or literary. I felt the old ladies that I know would feel slighted . And with due respect to Mr. Raz, I do not feel insisting on quotes from someone who is not "well-known" to other forum members is such a great idea. but of course you are fully within your rights to quote him.

It would be wonderful to see some real audio/video samples of _qadamoN_. Something we are still lacking.


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## Qureshpor

UrduMedium said:


> ^ I thought QP saahab you loved quoting M. Rafi to settle pronunciation questions!! I'm confused. Did I get that wrong? This is so prevalent, I do not even feel the need to quote anything. Correct?
> 
> I must have missed the elderly ladies comment from marrish saahab. I totally respect that. It's just that I have such counter evidence too, and feel it's not fair to use one such evidence over other to declare something colloquial or literary. I felt the old ladies that I know would feel slighted . And with due respect to Mr. Raz, I do not feel insisting on quotes from someone who is not "well-known" to other forum members is such a great idea. but of course you are fully within your rights to quote him.
> 
> It would be wonderful to see some real audio/video samples of _qadamoN_. Something we are still lacking.


UM SaaHib, I see this thread sliding in the same direction as the "naag" thread. I am not sure if you read my replies attentively. I feel I have made it absolutely clear, as far back as post 40, that both qadmoN and qadamoN are in use. Akbar Ilahabadi used the colloquial "qadmoN" in his shi3r and the learned author of the prosody book published in the 80s (I think) said that the norm was "qadamoN", at least, in poetry. 

I am not sure if I have used Mohammed Rafi as my yardstick for perfect pronunciation and "to settle pronunciation disputes". What I have commented about is his razor sharp articulation of words that he is singing. I have also mentioned his qaaf pronunciation in the word "Haqiir" in one of his songs in a past post.

Once again, we need not say that "qadmoN" is colloquial, especially after I have provided literary evidence of its usage. Remember I had said I was supporting both your and marrish SaaHib's stances. Therefore, there is no need to offer any counter evidence for "qadmoN" being literary because you have already quoted Iftikhar Arif.

"Mr. Raz" is well known enough. If he is not known to forum members, to me that is neither here nor there. I have quoted him as an Urdu speaking person, who has published a number of poetry and prose collections as well as a book on prosody. He has appeared on Urdu poetry forums on the net. All I can say is to quote Clint Eastwood when he was rebuked for shooting a man who was not armed.."Well, he should have armed himself"*! If any member is interested in the credentials of Sarwar Alam Raz, he/she can check him out for themselves.

* I don't support shooting unarmed peope!


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