# Urdu-Hindi: banii/banaa/bane



## Qureshpor

In the three sentences below, are B and C equally correct or are there any issues in either of them?*

A) tum kyuN but bane baiThe ho?
*
*B) tum kyuN but bane baiThii ho? 

C) tum kyuN but banii baiThii ho?


*


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## Alfaaz

Again really interesting (yet confusing) question! 

All three are heard...

A is correct. 
B is correct, ban is agreeing with but...could be read as (a far stretch): tum kyuN but bane (bane hue but ki tarH) baiThii ho....? (not really)
C could be correct, ban is agreeing with baiThii/female...could be read as: tum kyuN but ban kar yahaaN baiThii ho?


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## Abu Talha

Very interesting question. In this thread, _baat kiye jaa rahaa hai_ is correct and _kii jaa rahaa hai_ is incorrect. Perhaps, here it is a similar case except the tense is _karte ho_ instead of _kar rahe ho_.


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## marrish

There is an issue in all of them. All of them are wrong!


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## Alfaaz

> There is an issue in all of them. All of them are wrong!


Could you please explain the issues...Thanks!


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## marrish

Alfaaz said:


> Could you please explain the issues...Thanks!


For me, the issues are not plural but a singular issue. Guess what!


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> For me, the issues are not plural but a singular issue. Guess what!



lagtaa hai shaayad aap kaa ishaarah "kyuN" kii imlaa kii jaanib hai. (?)


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## marrish

QURESHPOR said:


> lagtaa hai shaayad aap kaa ishaarah "kyuN" kii imlaa kii jaanib hai. (?)


Oh yes, only this is it!
The rest is sound!


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> Oh yes, only this is it!
> The rest is sound!



I believe you may be wrong in saying, "The rest is sound". I shall (Insha Allah) return with a "vengeance"!


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## marrish

QURESHPOR said:


> I believe you may be wrong in saying, "The rest is sound". I shall (Insha Allah) return with a "vengeance"!


I hope for it that you are going to remove the veil.

For the rest, the last construction may wish to be corrected, but I heard it from the ''natives''!


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> lagtaa hai shaayad aap kaa ishaarah "kyuN" kii imlaa kii jaanib hai. (?)


 I don't think so QP SaaHib! It can be both _kyuN_ and _kyuuN_! My guess is that marrsih SaaHib might be hinting at something else here!

 I do know that the standard expression is: _but banaa khaRaa honaa_ = To be dumbstruck / astonished etc. Not sure if this is what he is driving at.

Edit: I see what this was about!


All three are otherwise Ok!


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> I don't think so QP SaaHib! It can be both _kyuN_ and _kyuuN_! My guess is that marrsih SaaHib might be hinting at something else here!
> 
> I do know that the standard expression is: _but banaa khaRaa honaa_ = To be dumbstruck / astonished etc. Not sure if this is what he is driving at.



Technically, "kyuN" is kaaf + ye + pesh + nuun-i-Ghunnah whereas it perhaps ought to be written "kyoN" (as well as kyuuN of course). I believe this is what marrish SaaHib was hinting at.


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## marrish

QURESHPOR said:


> Technically, "kyuN" is kaaf + ye + pesh + nuun-i-Ghunnah whereas it perhaps ought to be written "kyoN" (as well as kyuuN of course). I believe this is what marrish SaaHib was hinting at.


Again, you are right, and Faylasoof SaaHib too!


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> Technically, "kyuN" is kaaf + ye + pesh + nuun-i-Ghunnah whereas it perhaps ought to be written "kyoN" (as well as kyuuN of course). I believe this is what marrish SaaHib was hinting at.


 Well, these rules vary from person to person so I think we needn't worry too much about that! After all BP SaaHib of late has been giving us a tirade of vowels in places I could only dream of!


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## marrish

tuu kyuuN but banaa baiThaa hai.
tuu kyuuN but banii baiThii hai.
tuu kyuuN but bane baiThii hai. (not sure if it is Standard Urdu, it seems dialect to me).
tuu kyuuN but bane baiThaa hai.


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> tuu kyuuN but banaa baithaa hai.
> tuu kyuuN but banii baithii hai.
> tuu kyuuN but bane baithii hai. (not sure if it is Standard Urdu, it seems dialect to me).
> tuu kyuuN but bane baithaa hai.



Is there any reason why my "tum" has been changed to your "tuu"?


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## marrish

QURESHPOR said:


> Is there any reason why my "tum" has been changed to your "tuu"?


It is actually sound, that ''tum'' as grammar is concerned. But I would be reluctant to say something like this to family members I address as ''tum''.


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> Is there any reason why my "tum" has been changed to your "tuu"?


 All _tum _to _tuu_ changes we associate with high level of informality to the point of being rude and crude! But I remember some of our teachers would regularly address us as _tuu_ when really angry! Otherwise it was _tum_! When they became thoroughly displeased, then it would be _aap_! 

_aap but bane kyoN baiThe / khaRe haiN? _
etc.

marrish SaaHIb in your above sentences I think you mean 'T' instead of 't' to give _ baiThaa / baiThii_ etc.


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## marrish

Faylasoof said:


> All _tum _to _tuu_ changes we associate with high level of informality to the point of being rude and crude! But I remember some of our teachers would regularly address us as _tuu_ when really angry! Otherwise it was _tum_! When they became thoroughly displeased, then it would be _aap_!
> 
> _aap but bane kyoN baiThe / khaRe haiN? _
> etc.
> 
> marrish SaaHIb in your above sentences I think you mean 'T' instead of 't' to give _ baiThaa / baiThii_ etc.


Thank you for correction, I hasten to edit it before it is too late.


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> All _tum _to _tuu_ changes we associate with high level of informality to the point of being rude and crude! But I remember some of our teachers would regularly address us as _tuu_ when really angry! Otherwise it was _tum_! When they became thoroughly displeased, then it would be _aap_!
> 
> _aap but bane kyoN baiThe / khaRe haiN? _
> etc.
> 
> marrish SaaHIb in your above sentences I think you mean 'T' instead of 't' to give _ baiThaa / baiThii_ etc.




I think it goes without saying that I am well aware of tuu/tum/aap etiquette in Urdu. But, my thread has nothing whatsoever to do with "politeness" or "crudeness". I could easily have used "aap" and if it helps our friends in the forum to read "aap" in place of "tum", then please by all means do so.


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> I think it goes without saying that I am well aware of tuu/tum/aap etiquette in Urdu. But, my thread has nothing whatsoever to do with "politeness" or "crudeness". I could easily have used "aap" and if it helps our friends in the forum to read "aap" in place of "tum", then please by all means do so.


 Yes I know this thread has nothing to do with polite forms in Urdu but since you asked about the change of tum to tuu I thought I'd just add along the same lines, esp. the odd use of aap to express extreme anger!


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## Faylasoof

marrish said:


> tuu kyuuN but banaa baiThaa hai.
> tuu kyuuN but banii baiThii hai.
> _*tuu kyuuN but bane baiThii hai. (not sure if it is Standard Urdu, it seems dialect to me).*_
> tuu kyuuN but bane baiThaa hai.


 _*No this is not a dialect form! We do say it  like this!*_


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## marrish

Faylasoof said:


> _*No this is not a dialect form! We do say it  like this!*_


I think it is a good food for thought for Qureshpor SaaHib who is no doubt going to reach a conclusion soon.
Thank you for pointing out, Faylasoof SaaHib!
It was just a feeling, but I am eager to see what the grammar is behind all this.


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## UrduMedium

QURESHPOR said:


> In the three sentences below, are B and C equally correct or are there any issues in either of them?*
> 
> A) tum kyuN but bane baiThe ho?
> *
> *B) tum kyuN but bane baiThii ho?
> 
> C) tum kyuN but banii baiThii ho?
> 
> 
> *



Somehow (B) does not "sound" right. Not sure about grammatical reasoning, but I'll try with a comparative example.

a) zahid ab tum ghar chale jaao 
b) seema ab tum ghar chale jaao
c) seema ab tum ghar chalii jaao

(b) is an analog of (B) and sounds obviously wrong.


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## JaiHind

QURESHPOR said:


> In the three sentences below, are B and C equally correct or are there any issues in either of them?*
> 
> A) tum kyuN but bane baiThe ho?
> *
> *B) tum kyuN but bane baiThii ho?
> 
> C) tum kyuN but banii baiThii ho?
> 
> 
> *



Yes, both B and C are fine and commonly used. One can use either of the two. Dono me se koi bhi prayog karna galat nahi hoga.


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## Alfaaz

> Dono me se koi bhi prayog karna galat nahi hoga.



*Questions: 
*Don't mean to go off topic, but what does "prayog" mean? choose, use....?
Also, what would be the Hindi equivalent of غلط / ghalat?


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## UrduMedium

mbasit said:


> Somehow (B) does not "sound" right. Not sure about grammatical reasoning, but I'll try with a comparative example.
> 
> a) zahid ab tum ghar chale jaao
> b) seema ab tum ghar chale jaao
> c) seema ab tum ghar chalii jaao
> 
> (b) is an analog of (B) and sounds obviously wrong.



On second thought I think (B) is fine.  I didn't realize before that 'but bane' is not used here as a verb but more like an adverb for the verb baiTh*. For example:

A1) tum kyuN khaRe khaRe muskuraa rahe ho?
B1) tum kyuN khaRe khaRe muskuraa rahii ho?
C1) tum kyuN khaRii khaRii muskuraa rahii ho?

khaRe khaRe is more like 'but bane' in the example above. B1 sounds perfectly fine. So I assume (B) is fine also in the original example. If anything (C) seems very suspect now to me 

Great question and thread QP sahib.


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## Qureshpor

mbasit said:


> Great question and thread QP sahib.



Thank you. Please don't forget to "check out" "paRe paRe vs paRii paRii" thread too as well as "Subject and verb agreement" thread.


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## tonyspeed

Alfaaz said:


> *Questions:
> *Don't mean to go off topic, but what does "prayog" mean? choose, use....?
> Also, what would be the Hindi equivalent of غلط / ghalat?



prayog is istemaal. Both are ok Hindi. galat is legitimate Hindi as well.


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## Alfaaz

> prayog is istemaal. Both are ok Hindi. galat is legitimate Hindi as well.


Thanks for replying, but was wondering what the Hindi/Sanskrit equivalents would be of ghalat...


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## Qureshpor

Alfaaz said:


> Thanks for replying, but was wondering what the Hindi/Sanskrit equivalents would be of ghalat...




You might have more success with this and other similar previous requests if you opened a separate thread for each word and asked your question in a format similar to one provided below.

"Urdu-Hindi:Ghalat

Could some kind soul please provide me usage for the word "Ghalat" in Hindi, quoting if possible from Hindi poetry and any synonyms for it."


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## Alfaaz

> You might have more success with this and other similar previous requests if you opened a separate thread for each word and asked your question in a format similar to one provided below.


Excuse the interruption in your thread (didn't mean to go off topic)! Thought about the idea presented, but those kinds of threads often lead to debates...so was avoiding that...the two recent questions came up due to the fact that Jai Jii always seems to use very pure Hindi/Sanskrit derived words and it sparked interest about what the equivalents would be of words such as ba'd, keh, and ghalat.


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## marrish

JaiHind said:


> Yes, both B and C are fine and commonly used. One can use either of the two. Dono me se koi bhi prayog karna galat nahi hoga.





Alfaaz said:


> Excuse the interruption in your thread (didn't mean to go off topic)! Thought about the idea presented, but those kinds of threads often lead to debates...so was avoiding that...the two recent questions came up due to *the fact that Jai Jii always seems to use very pure Hindi/Sanskrit derived words* and it sparked interest about what the equivalents would be of words such as ba'd, keh, and ghalat.



I beg your pardon, but is ''dono'', ''me'', ''galat'' or ''nahi'' very pure Hindi?! I thought the words were in Hindi donoN, meN, Ghalat and respectively, nahiiN! How come it sounds very pure?


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## Alfaaz

> How come it sounds very pure?


I was referring to words like prayog, avashyakta, mantrimandal, nirnay, etc. (used in his replies) that probably wouldn't be understood by common Urdu speakers...


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## marrish

Alfaaz said:


> I was referring to words like prayog, avashyakta, mantrimandal, nirnay, etc. (used in his replies) that probably wouldn't be understood by common Urdu speakers...


Ah, so is this. Which kind of purity these words imply, if I may ask?
If a thread is open to Hindi, I wouldn't be every time surprised to see some Hindi words here and there...


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## marrish

Alfaaz said:


> Excuse the interruption in your thread (didn't mean to go off topic)! Thought about the idea presented, but those kinds of threads often lead to debates...so was avoiding that...the two recent questions came up due to the fact that Jai Jii always seems to use very pure Hindi/Sanskrit derived words and it sparked interest about what the equivalents would be of words such as ba'd, keh, and ghalat.


Dear Alfaaz, these inputs are surely going to be deleted. Please make a new thread under Hindi and I will tell you the ''pure'' words you require.


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## Alfaaz

> Ah, so is this. Which kind of purity these words imply, if I may ask?


Maybe the word pure/purity shouldn't have been used....but there have been threads discussing this (for example, "Shuddata of Hindi"). Some words would be more likely unique to/marked "Urdu" while others as "Hindi". The words that I listed previously:


> prayog, avashyakta, mantrimandal, nirnay, etc.


would probably be labeled as "Hindi" and one wouldn't really expect to hear such in an Urdu news bulletin (for example)...


> If a thread is open to Hindi, I wouldn't be every time surprised to see some Hindi words here and there...


Didn't say anything about being surprised to see Hindi words, but it did spark interest and curiosity for which a separate thread could have been opened as QP suggested...
Again, excuse me for interrupting in the thread (didn't want to start a debate or go off topic).


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## tonyspeed

Alfaaz said:


> but there have been threads discussing this (for example, "Shuddata of Hindi").



As far as linguists are concerned there is no such thing as Shuddhataa. Therefore, such arguments are political in nature. Sanskrit words in their original forms are what linguists call "borrowed" words, tatsama.  The idea that they are pure is tied to the idea that Sanskrit is purer than Hindi and the Prakrits and Hindustani are corruptions of Sanskrit. Once again, a personal judgment, not based solely on facts.


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## marrish

tonyspeed said:


> As far as linguists are concerned there is no such thing as Shuddhataa. Therefore, such arguments are political in nature. Sanskrit words in their original forms are what linguists call "borrowed" words, tatsama.  The idea that they are pure is tied to the idea that Sanskrit is purer than Hindi and the Prakrits and Hindustani are corruptions of Sanskrit. Once again, a personal judgment, not based solely on facts.


I agree with what has been said afore. Anyone having read the thread in question with due care would have got it by now.
I hope we are not derailing the thread here but I think some things ought to be said over and over.


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