# Urdu, Hindi: ab ke अब के اب کے



## marrish

Please consider the usage of ''_ab ke_'' اب کے अब के in the following couplet from a _Ghazal_ by Ahmad Faraz:
_
اب کے ہم بچھڑے تو شاید کبھی خوابوں میں ملیں
جس  طرح  سوکھے ہوئے پھول کتابوں میں  ملیں
_
_ab ke ham bichhRe to shaayad kabhii xwaaboN meN mileN
jis tarH suukhe hu'e phuul kitaaboN meN mileN

_
These two words are very often used in sentences like this one:
_
اب کے شرارت کی تو سزا ملے گی
ab ke sharaarat kii to sazaa mile gii!
_अब के शरारत की तो सज़ा मिलेगी!

I'd say it is idiomatic usage but could we discuss the grammar behind this expression? How this expression can be conveyed in the English language?

Thank you.


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> Please consider the usage of ''_ab ke_'' اب کے अब के in the following couplet from a _Ghazal_ by Ahmad Faraz:
> 
> _اب کے ہم بچھڑے تو شاید کبھی خوابوں میں ملیں
> جس طرح سوکھے ہوئے _پھول _کتابوں میں ملیں
> _
> _ab ke ham bichhRe to shaayad kabhii xwaaboN meN mileN
> jis tarH suukhe hu'e phuul kitaaboN meN mileN
> 
> _
> These two words are very often used in sentences like this one:
> _
> اب کے شرارت کی تو سزا ملے گی
> ab ke sharaarat kii to sazaa mile gii!
> _अब के शरारत की तो सज़ा मिलेगी!
> 
> I'd say it is idiomatic usage but could we discuss the grammar behind this expression? How this expression can be conveyed in the English language?
> 
> Thank you.



Could this be..

ab ke (samay/vaqt) ?

mushaa3irah yahaaN shahr meN kahiiN nahiiN hotaa. qal3ah meN shaah-zaadagaan-i-taimuuriyah jam3 ho kar kuchh Ghazal-xvaanii kar lete haiN. vahaaN ke misra3-i-tarHii ko kyaa kar liijiye gaa aur us par Ghazal likh kar kahaaN paRhiye gaa. maiN kabhii us maHfil meN jaataa huuN kabhii nahiiN jaataa. aur yih suHbat xud chand-rozah hai. is ko davaam kahaaN. kyaa ma3luum *ab ke* nah ho. aur *ab ke* ho to aa2indah nah ho. (From a letter by Ghalib to Abdul Qazi Jamil, "JunuuN"-1845)

Note: Ghalib is talking about royalty taking part in poetry recitation sessions at the Red Fort.

Ed: ab kaa = of now/this time (adj)

So "ab ke" = This time (adverb) (cf. chaltaa hu'aa = adj, chalte hu'e = adverb)


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## marrish

Thank you for the excerpt from Ghalib's letter, it narrates indeed about the royalty and uses _liijiye gaa_ form (but I think it belongs to another topic where the lid has been already put on).

You have offered two ways of understanding ''ab ke'', I think both of them are equally plausible.


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> Thank you for the excerpt from Ghalib's letter, it narrates indeed about the royalty and uses _liijiye gaa_ form (but I think it belongs to another topic where the lid has been already put on).
> 
> You have offered two ways of understanding ''ab ke'', I think both of them are equally plausible.


But the " kar liijiye gaa" and "paRhiye gaa" are not imperatives!


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## marrish

^Of course not, you are absolutely right. The other thread's concern was the imperative.


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## Qureshpor

Here is another example which gives support to my first point of view. It is possible that both might be true or there might be yet another reasoning behind its usage.

pahle bhii xizaaN meN baaGh ujRe par yuuN nahiiN jaise ab ke baras
saare buuTe, pattaa pattaa, ravish ravish barbaad hu'e

پہلے بھی خزاں میں باغ اجڑے پر یوں نہیں جیسے اب کے برس
​سارے بوٹے پتہ پتہ روش روش برباد ہوئے
 
(Faiz)

​​


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## marrish

QURESHPOR said:


> Ed: ab kaa = of now/this time (adj)
> 
> So "ab ke" = This time (adverb) *(cf. chaltaa hu'aa = adj, chalte hu'e = adverb)*


I'd rather say that chaltaa hu'aa is a present participle, not an adjective and that chalte hu'e is the same participle but inflected or plural.


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## marrish

QURESHPOR said:


> Here is another example which gives support to my first point of view. It is possible that both might be true or there might be yet another reasoning behind its usage.
> 
> pahle bhii xizaaN meN baaGh ujRe par yuuN nahiiN jaise ab ke baras
> saare buuTe, pattaa pattaa, ravish ravish barbaad hu'e
> 
> پہلے بھی خزاں میں باغ اجڑے پر یوں نہیں جیسے اب کے برس
> ​سارے بوٹے پتہ پتہ روش روش برباد ہوئے
> 
> (Faiz)


Thank you very much for this example; in the meantime I've found another reference in support of the first scenario:

''When a postposition, or another word is understood after a noun, and it is not governed by an active verb, the preceding genitive case, &c. are affected the same as if it were expressed; as, _apne beTe ke ghar gayaa_, he went to his son's house; understand _meN_ after _ghar*_. *ab ke koshish karuuN gaa, now I will seek, understand waqt meN, time.*''

(Introduction to the Hindusta'ni' Language: In Three Parts, Viz. a Grammar .... by William Yates, J. Thomas)

*_ko_ would fit as well in my opinion.


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> I'd rather say that chaltaa hu'aa is a present participle, not an adjective and that chalte hu'e is the same participle but inflected or plural.


Well, you are free to say what you wish!

chaltaa hu'aa paanii = moving water

chalte (chalte), yuuN hii ko'ii mil gayaa thaa = I just met someone (by chance) as I was going along (on my life's path)


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## marrish

QURESHPOR said:


> Well, you are free to say what you wish!
> 
> chaltaa hu'aa paanii = moving water
> 
> chalte (chalte), yuuN hii ko'ii mil gayaa thaa = I just met someone (by chance) as I was going along (on my life's path)


Thank you for your being so generous to me and let me say what I wish, I appreciate it (I'm not joking!).

I understand that the first case is the adjectival usage of the participle and the other one an adverbial usage but _chaltaa hu'aa_ and _moving_ are and remain in essence participles as they are verbal formations. I hope I'm right on this.


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> Thank you for your being so generous to me and let me say what I wish, I appreciate it (I'm not joking!).
> 
> I understand that the first case is the adjectival usage of the participle and the other one an adverbial usage but _chaltaa hu'aa_ and _moving_ are and remain in essence participles as they are verbal formations. I hope I'm right on this.


Yes, you are right. One is an adjective whilst the other is an adverb!
"yih kahaaN pih aa ga'e ham tere saath saath *chalte*?


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## marrish

What about ab ke [ba3d/baad] in this context?


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> What about ab ke [ba3d/baad] in this context?


I think I will give this one a pass and allow others to chip in with their views.


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## marrish

QURESHPOR said:


> I think I will give this one a pass and allow others to chip in with their views.


It´s a good idea!


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## MonsieurGonzalito

I was wondering if the "ke" of "ab ke" just gives conjunctive value to whatever past participle is lying around, to  convey immediacy, consequence, instrumentality, etc.

_ab ke ham bichhRe to  ..._

translatable as _"Now that ... then ... " in English

Now that we have separated,_ ... [immediate/ consequential term expected]

In other words, "ab ke" is not working adverbially in isolation, and some other term would be always expected.


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## littlepond

MonsieurGonzalito said:


> _Now that we have separated,_ ... [immediate/ consequential term expected]



It is meaning "If we become separated now" (conjecture, apprehension) rather than "we have separated" (past event) in the couplet discussed!


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## MonsieurGonzalito

littlepond said:


> It is meaning "If we become separated now" (conjecture, apprehension)


Are you saying it is a_ ki(h)_, not a _ke_?


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## marrish

ab ke - now - this time.


littlepond said:


> It is meaning "*If* we become separated *now*" (conjecture, apprehension) rather than "we have separated" (past event) in the couplet discussed!


"If" here is understood — from the combination of the past tense form in the main clause and the conditional form in the other clause — and it is not less than perfectly natural and idiomatic to leave "If" out. _agar_ is used far less in Urdu than 'if' occurs in such a context in English.


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## Alfaaz

> اَب کی / --- کے () م ف
> 
> ۱. اس دفعہ ، اس مرتبہ ، اس بار ؛ نیز امسال .
> 
> ۲. پھر ، مکرر ، اگلی دفعہ ؛ سال آئندہ .
> 
> ۳. آئندہ فعل کے دہرائے جانے کی نفی کے معنی میں .


​Another popular example by Ahmad Faraz:

*اب کے* تجدیدِ وفا کا نہیں اِمکاں جاناں
یاد کیا تجھ کو دلائیں تیرا پیماں جاناں 

*اب کے* کچھ ایسی سجی محفلِ یاراں جاناں
سر بہ زانو ہے کوئی سر بگریباں جاناں​


			
				marrish said:
			
		

> How this expression can be conveyed in the English language?


For some of the Urdu usages/examples discussed, _this time around_ could be used for English translations.


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## marrish

MonsieurGonzalito said:


> translatable as _"Now that ... then ... " in English_


No, it's wrong. 
That would have to be اب کے کہ ۔۔۔ تو ab ke kih ... to...



MonsieurGonzalito said:


> In other words, "ab ke" is not working adverbially in isolation, and some other term would be always expected.


To the contrary.


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## marrish

Alfaaz said:


> ​Another popular example by Ahmad Faraz:
> *اب کے* تجدیدِ وفا کا نہیں اِمکاں جاناں
> یاد کیا تجھ کو دلائیں تیرا پیماں جاناں
> 
> *اب کے* کچھ ایسی سجی محفلِ یاراں جاناں
> سر بہ زانو ہے کوئی سر بگریباں جاناں​
> For some of the Urdu usages/examples discussed, _*this time around*_ could be used for English translations.


These are indeed valuable illustrations of its use, which are known to many, therefore I thank you for sharing them here. Also, thanks for responding to my previous request for an English translation. I think many are going to find its mention useful.


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## Qureshpor

marrish SaaHib, there is also "ab kii" as you no doubt are already aware, as in the slogan "abki baar, Trump sarkar". A more authoritative quote from Nasikh.

ab kii jaaRe yuuN basar kartaa huuN kuu-i-yaar meN
xaak kaa bistar hai kammal saayah-i-diivaar kaa


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