# за камнем камень



## August2

Здравствуйте!

Can you please point out the stylistic differences between these two translations?
1._ Марко описы_вает_ один мост, *камень за камнем*._ 
– _На каком же из них *держится* этот мост?_ – _спросил Кубла‑хан._ 
2. _Описывает Марко мост *за камнем камень*._
_- И какой же из них *держит* мост? – интересуется Кублай._

_Original text:_
Marco Polo descrive un ponte, pietra per pietra.
"Ma qual è la pietra che sostiene il ponte?" – chiede Kublai Kan.

Official English translation:
Marco Polo describes a bridge, stone by stone.
“But which is the stone that supports the bridge?” Kublai Khan asks.

Perhaps you may also check the following ‘derived paraphrase’. 
_Марко описывает (один) фильм, сцена за сценой, актер за актером._

Thanks for your attention.


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## Maroseika

August2 said:


> _Марко описывает (один) фильм, сцена за сценой, актера за актером._
> .


Strange enough, but I can't explain why exactly актера and not актер. With unanimated nouns we can say two ways:
Он описал фильм сцену за сценой.
Он описал фильм, сцена за сценой.
But I can't imagine the second way for animated nouns. Maybe "animated" declining model influence... (вижу фильм / вижу актера).

As for your question about the stones, the second variant is more bookish, more poetic, so to say - like often occurs with the inversions. Colloquial and common one is the first one.

Among two variants держится/держит it's rather hard to choose. I'd say there is no stilstical difference between them, but the second one seems to me a bit more precise in the technical sense.


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## rusita preciosa

_Марко описывает фильм, сцена за сценой, актера за актером._

I don't think this would work. Both *сцена* and *актер* should be the same case: either nominative or accusative:
Марко описывает фильм, сцена за сценой, актер за актером. (this sounds a bit odd, but I don't think it is incorrect)
or
Марко описывает фильм, сцен*y* за сценой, актер*а* за актером. (I would choose this option)


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## Sobakus

Maroseika said:


> Strange enough, but I can't explain why exactly актера and not актер. With unanimated nouns we can say two ways:
> Он описал фильм сцену за сценой.
> Он описал фильм, сцена за сценой.
> But I can't imagine the second way for animated nouns. Maybe "animated" declining model influence... (вижу фильм / вижу актера).


In this example accusative is required, which, for "сцена", is "сцену". You can't use nominative here.



> As for your question about the stones, the second variant is more bookish, more poetic, so to say - like often occurs with the inversions. Colloquial and common one is the first one.


I agree.

As for "держится/держит", "на камне держится" implies the stone serves as the bridge's pier, and that should be one big stone, I say. If we are talking about one of the many stones that, if removed, would sure cause the bridge to collapse, I'd use the second variant.


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## Valvs

Both translators have translated the khan's name incorrectly. The Mongolian khan who conquered China and moved the capital of the Mongolian Empire to Beijing is known in Russian as _Хубилай_. "Кублай" is downright wrong, and the spelling "Кубла-хан" only occurs in Balmont's translation of the famous poem by Coleridge. I think many Russian readers of that poem don't even identify _Кубла-хан_ with the historical _Хубилай_.


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## Sobakus

rusita preciosa said:


> Марко описывает фильм, сцена за сценой, актер за актером. (this sounds a bit odd, but I don't think it is incorrect)
> or



Erm, the question to that would be "Марко описывает кто?", which means "Marco is described by whom?". Do you also say "Я встретил мама"?


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## rusita preciosa

Agree with the essence of your comment, Sobakus

(although its tone is quite nasty)


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## Sobakus

rusita preciosa said:


> (although its tone is quite nasty)



Sorry, I blame the raining weather >_>


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## August2

Thank you Maroseika, rusita preciosa, Sobakus and Valvs for your remarks and suggestions.


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## Maroseika

Sobakus said:


> Erm, the question to that would be "Марко описывает кто?", which means "Marco is described by whom?". Do you also say "Я встретил мама"?


Due question would be^
- Что описывает Марко? 
- Фильм, сцена за сценой. 

Compare: Я увидел семью - мама, папа и дочка.


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## Sobakus

Maroseika said:


> Due question would be^
> - Что описывает Марко?
> - Фильм, сцена за сценой.


You mix up N. and Acc. cases. M. Acc. inanimate=M. N. in Russian, but it isn't so for the feminine gender. N:кто/что? Фильм, сцена, Боря, Света но Acc.кого/что? Фильм, сцену, Борю, Свету.


> - Что описывает Марко?
> - Фильм, сцена за сценой.
> 
> - Что описывает Марко?
> - Сцена.
> 
> - Марко описывает сцена.
> 
> - Сцен описывается марком?
> - Сцена за сценой описывают Марка?


I hope you see that it doesn't make sense.



> Compare: Я увидел семью - мама, папа и дочка.


It's a composite sentence, "мама, папа и дочка <составляли её>" part being an incomplete one.


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## Maroseika

Sobakus said:


> You mix up N. and Acc. cases. M. Acc. inanimate=M. N. in Russian, but it isn't so for the feminine gender. N:кто/что? Фильм, сцена, Боря, Света но Acc.кого/что? Фильм, сцену, Борю, Свету.


I'm afraid I don't understand your idea.
Он листал книгу страница за страницей. What's wrong?



> I hope you see that it doesn't make sense.


Sure, your examples make no sense. But mine - does make.




> It's a composite sentence, "мама, папа и дочка <составляли её>" part being an incomplete one


I'm afraid I can't agree.


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## Sobakus

Maroseika said:


> I'm afraid I don't understand your idea.


Let's analyse the sentence.
Марко описывает фильм, сцену за сценой, актера за актером.
Subect Verb         Object, Obj.Обстоятельство, Obj. Обст-во.

Obviously, фильм, сцена и актёр must all be in the same case - Accusative. In your variant they aren't.


> Он листал книгу страница за страницей. What's wrong?


Nothing is. "Страница за страницей" is a complex adverb, and adverbs in Russian don't decline.

Now, why aren't "сцена за сценой, актер за актером" complex adverbs as well? Let's try to derive a similar c. a. from an animate object.. Врач осматривал больных, пациент за пациентом?.. Директор поздравлял сотрудников, работник за работником?.. We can't. I also wouldn't ever say 
"Марко описывает фильм сцена за сценой", because I don't see the process of describing a film as something repititive and gradual, which complex adverbs of this kind imply(moreover, I'd use only устоявшиеся выражения, like "шаг за шагом, один за другим"). Anyhow, we came to a conclusion that you can't say "актёр за актёром", but, as you rightly noticed, "Марко описывает фильм сцена за сценой, актера за актером"(you don't put a comma in front of an adverb) is also incorrect. So the only variant left is "Марко описывает фильм, сцену за сценой, актера за актером", with homogenous predicates.
I hope I was clear enough.


> Sure, your examples make no sense.


I just paraphrased yours.


> I'm afraid I can't agree.


Then what is it?


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## estreets

August2 said:


> Здравствуйте! Can you please point out the stylistic differences between these two translations? 1._ Марко описы_вает_ один мост, *камень за камнем*._  - _На каком же из них *держится* этот мост?_ - _спросил Кубла-хан._  2. _Описывает Марко мост *за камнем камень*._ _- И какой же из них *держит* мост? - интересуется Кублай._


 Variant 1 is much-much better. Variant 2 is too pathetic as inversion doesn't sound good.


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## Maroseika

Sobakus said:


> Let's analyse the sentence.
> Марко описывает фильм, сцену за сценой, актера за актером.
> Subect Verb         Object, Obj.Обстоятельство, Obj. Обст-во.
> 
> Obviously, фильм, сцена и актёр must all be in the same case - Accusative. In your variant they aren't.


Agrre, comma was wrong put.
So correct variants are:
Марко описывает фильм, сцену за сценой, актера за актером.
Марко описывает фильм сцена за сценой, актер за актером.




> Врач осматривал больных, пациент за пациентом?.. Директор поздравлял сотрудников, работник за работником?.. We can't.


I keep guessing we can say so, though without comma when writing. Sounds weird but I don't see any grammatical defect.



> "Марко описывает фильм сцена за сценой", because I don't see the process of describing a film as something repititive and gradual, which complex adverbs of this kind imply(moreover, I'd use only устоявшиеся выражения, like "шаг за шагом, один за другим").


Why, when we describe a movie scence by scene, the process is quite repetitive. And my point is we can use any noun with this model.
Пограничник проверил весь самолет пассажир за пассажиром.


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## Ptak

Listen, guys, don't you think that "описывать фильм, сцену за сценой, *актера за актером*" is wrong logically because a film consists of scenes, but not of *actors*. It consists of *scenes and roles*, but "a film consists of actors" sounds just strange.


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## Maroseika

Description of actors implies description of their roles. One hardly would describe their appearance. Anyway, the question is rather about grammar than about style.


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## Sobakus

Maroseika said:


> And my point is we can use any noun with this model.
> Пограничник проверил весь самолет пассажир за пассажиром.



You can't be serious! Not only does it sound absurd to me, but to every one of my friends as well, and I even did a poll on an average forum, and out of 41 people 16 haven't even heard of something like that(like me), and 18 have, but think it's incorrect. That's as without "any grammatical defect" as
"Вспыхает небо, разбужая ветер, 
Проснувший гомон птичьих голосов. 
Проклинывая все на белом свете, 
Я вновь бежу в нетоптанность лесов."

Anyways, what I'm trying to do is make it clear to the Russian leraners that using animated nouns in such adverbs to an average Russian speaker sounds like.. read above.


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## Slavianophil

I cannot explain why, but I would never say or write anything like "описывает фильм сцена за сценой, актёр за актёром" или "пограничник проверил весь самолёт пассажир за пассажиром". I would use Accusative without the slightest hesitation.


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## Ptak

Slavianophil said:


> I would never say or write anything like "описывает фильм сцена за сценой, актёр за актёром" или "пограничник проверил весь самолёт пассажир за пассажиром". I would use Accusative without the slightest hesitation.


I second that.


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## Maroseika

Sobakus said:


> You can't be serious! Not only does it sound absurd to me, but to every one of my friends as well, and I even did a poll on an average forum, and out of 41 people 16 haven't even heard of something like that(like me), and 18 have, but think it's incorrect.
> 
> Anyways, what I'm trying to do is make it clear to the Russian leraners that using animated nouns in such adverbs to an average Russian speaker sounds like.. read above.



I completely agree with you, it sounds weird. But - rather  unexpectedly for me - I don't see any reason for it to be incorrect.

If complex adverb is not declined, what is the initial case of the first noun in the adverbs like [Прочитал текст] слово за словом, [Проверил самолет] пассажир за пассажиром? Or it always depends on the context?


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## Slavianophil

You know, languages are not like maths - they often function illogically. Some grammatical forms are not at all wrong but for some reason are not used. For example, the verb "победить" strangely and inconveniently has no first person singular. You simply cannot say: "Я победю" или "Я побежу".

I think here we have another case of a phrase which is not contrary to any grammatical rule, but is impossible in normal speech.


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## Maroseika

Maybe you are right. But I'm not sure this is the case.


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## Sobakus

Maroseika said:


> I completely agree with you, it sounds weird. But - rather  unexpectedly for me - I don't see any reason for it to be incorrect.
> 
> If complex adverb is not declined, what is the initial case of the first noun in the adverbs like [Прочитал текст] слово за словом, [Проверил самолет] пассажир за пассажиром? Or it always depends on the context?


                                 Erm, I'm not sure I understand your question, you just can't use adverb "пассажир за пассажиром" so it can't be in any case. But you can say "слово за словом" (how?) and it will be in this case(Nom+Acc) everywhere, like all the other adverbs(налево, быстро, точно).


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