# alles überbrausende Begeisterung



## sedmont

*Dictionaries I've checked don't seem to have überbrausend. Have I translated it correctly below into English?  Thanks for any help.*

Andererseits wird das Bewußtsein der deutschen Niederlage und die Furcht vor politischem und wirtschaftlichem Chaos viele bedrückt haben, so daß Wilhelm Blos -- vielleicht aufgrund eigener Skepsis -- die "allgemeine, alles überbrausende, mitreißende und erhebende Begeisterung" vermißte.

On the other hand the awareness of the German collapse and the fear of political and economic chaos will have depressed many, so that Wilhelm Blos – perhaps due to his own skepticism – lacked the ‘general, everything over-showering, intoxicating, uplifting enthusiasm.’ 

Or perhaps:

...lacked the ‘general, all-drenching, intoxicating, uplifting enthusiasm.’


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## Kajjo

sedmont said:


> ‘general, everything over-showering, intoxicating, uplifting enthusiasm.


 Fine.


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## elroy

sedmont said:


> everything over-showering


 This doesn't work in English. 

How about "all-consuming"?


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## Kajjo

elroy said:


> How about "all-consuming"?


That doesn't fit. It's about euphoric, sparkling, sweeping over it.


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## sedmont

You both have seem to have a point. "all-consuming" does not seem quite right, and "everything over-showering" is perhaps a little awkward in English.  But Kajjo has confirmed that my meaning is not wrong, which was what I really needed to know. 

What about "all-drenching" ?  It hints at a downpour of rain, though it mainly suggests being unpleasantly soaked in waves of "excessive" euphoria -- Blos seems to have felt that it was excessive and unpleasant in the early German Revolution.


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## Demiurg

What about _exuberant_ / _ebullient_?  Also, _intoxicating _doesn't seem to fit.


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## Sowka

sedmont said:


> alles überbrausende, mitreißende


I don't understand "überbrausend" as a downpour of rain, but rather as the motion and noise caused by strong wind. "Der Sturm braust über die Ebene dahin", for example.

The roaring storm of euphoria? Something like that.

Edit: Blos perceives these features as positive -- he "misses" them (not "lacks" them). "Er vermisste die überbrausende  etc" means that he was sad that this euphoria was not there.


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## Frieder

effervescent?


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## Schlabberlatz

Sowka said:


> I don't understand "überbrausend" as a downpour of rain, but rather as the motion and noise caused by strong wind. "Der Sturm braust über die Ebene dahin", for example.
> 
> The roaring storm of euphoria? Something like that.


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## Schlabberlatz

Noch eine Idee: Ist es möglicherweise eine Steigerung zu ›über*tönen*‹?


> *übertönen* v/t (untrennb, hat) drown (out);
> der Chor übertönte die Solistin the choir drowned out the soloist;
> übertönen - Wörterbuch Deutsch-Englisch - WordReference.com



Edit: Also: ein Brausen wie von einem Sturm, das alles andere übertönt?


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## Sowka

sedmont said:


> alles überbrausende, mitreißende und erhebende


"Drown (out)" wäre in meinen Augen zu statisch.

Wenn man "überbrausend" im Sinne eines brausenden Sturms versteht, mit einer starken Bewegung, dann wird diese starke Bewegung in "mitreißend" und "erhebend" aufgegriffen.

Wenn man "drown" verwendet, dann wäre meiner Meinung nach diese Bewegung der Begeisterung verloren.


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## Schlabberlatz

Man müsste für die Übersetzung natürlich eine Steigerung zu ›drown out‹ finden. Den Wörterbucheintrag habe ich zitiert, damit sedmont weiß, was ›übertönen‹ bedeutet. Vielleicht fällt ihm ja selber was Gutes ein, dann müssen wir uns nicht den Kopf zerbrechen


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## sedmont

Wow, this is great, a lot of information from so many people here. For the moment I will ask about a single issue.


Sowka said:


> Blos perceives these features as positive -- he "misses" them (not "lacks" them). "Er vermisste die überbrausende  etc" means that he was sad that this euphoria was not there.



Thanks very much for pointing out the error.

Does the author of the passage mean to say that the depression came _after _the euphoria and that Blos _later _missed the euphoria that was _no longer_ present? Alternatively, does the word mean that the euphoria passed him by? That he did not catch it, he missed it, it did not reach him?

Andererseits wird das Bewußtsein der deutschen Niederlage und die Furcht vor politischem und wirtschaftlichem Chaos viele bedrückt haben, so daß Wilhelm Blos -- vielleicht aufgrund eigener Skepsis -- die "allgemeine, alles überbrausende, mitreißende und erhebende Begeisterung" vermißte.


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## elroy

Based on the responses given so far, I feel like "all-consuming" fits very well.  The "euphoria" aspect can be rendered by translating "Begeisterung" as "euphoria" instead of "enthusiasm."  "All-consuming euphoria" to me very effectively paints the desired image:


Kajjo said:


> sweeping over it





Sowka said:


> roaring storm





Schlabberlatz said:


> das alles andere übertönt


 "All-consuming" has the advantage of being a commonly used metaphor (in contexts like this one and in many others) and being suitable whether the thing described is positive or negative.

"all-consuming euphoria"


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## ayuda?

elroy said:


> Based on the responses given so far, I feel like "all-consuming" fits very well. The "euphoria" aspect can be rendered by translating "Begeisterung" as "euphoria" instead of "enthusiasm." "*All-consuming* *euphoria*" to me very effectively paints the desired image:



That also occurred to me immediately.

*[IMHO]* *alles überbrausende*, etc.
*Might alternatively be phrased like this *because, to me they all represent something rushing in and covering everything—like the wind, rain, weather.
all-encompassing
overwhelming
****Enthralling: enthrall  [has the same sense of rushing in as the weather might]

*Note:* It seems like this is one of those cases where there simply is no direct translation.
As hard as it is to break the mold, think out of the box, forcing that square peg into a round hole just doesn’t work either.
Sure, it has to do with the idea of something with a weather metaphor; however, that does sound to rigid, forced, and awkward.

What_ elroy_ has suggested captures the overall meaning as well as anything that could be said, I would say.

*Re: Sowka* vermißte = missed

*So, the suggestion is:*
…missed the general, ***all-consuming*, uplifting *euphoria*.


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## sedmont

Thanks very much to all for the extensive discussion of überbrausende. 

*Question about *"*missed*"*:* (Sowka commented on this in #7 post above). 

Does the author of the passage mean to say that the depression came _after _the euphoria and that Blos _later _*missed *the euphoria that was _no longer_ present? Or does the word "*missed" *in the passage mean that the euphoria passed him by? That he did not catch it, he missed it, it did not reach him, he did not feel it?

Andererseits wird das Bewußtsein der deutschen Niederlage und die Furcht vor politischem und wirtschaftlichem Chaos viele bedrückt haben, so daß Wilhelm Blos -- vielleicht aufgrund eigener Skepsis -- die "allgemeine, alles überbrausende, mitreißende und erhebende Begeisterung" vermißte.


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## Frieder

Reading this passage for the first time I would say: Because everybody was aware of the lost war and the economic chaos everybody was a bit depressed (bedrückt). Blos wondered why the


sedmont said:


> "allgemeine, alles überbrausende, mitreißende und erhebende Begeisterung"


was not there, but he himself was a skeptic too, so it came as no big surprise to him that indeed there was not a


sedmont said:


> "allgemeine, alles überbrausende, mitreißende und erhebende Begeisterung"



He didn't really miss it, he knew it couldn't be there. But maybe he somehow wanted it to be there and he was a bit disappointed after all. That's how I see "vermißte".


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## sedmont

Frieder, I have to apologize to you and others. I should have provided more context. The preceding passages talk about a general optimism:


_A general spirit of optimism is repeatedly attested. It was certainly not so emphatic with everyone as it was with the young soldier Bert Brennecke, who captured in verse the fraternization of soldiers with workers _[I will skip the first three verses -- sedmont]_: _

_As history then we made,     /                    Da machten wir Geschichte,_

_Each glance hopeful as the morn,   /           voll Hoffnung jeder Blick_

_The light of morning played        /              sah’n wir im Morgenlichte_

_On the republic newly born!       /              die junge Republik!_

_But also the report of a lecture given on the evening of November 9 by Wilhelm Keil, the SPD state parliament representative and editor of the Schwäbischen Tagwacht [Swabian Daily Sentinel], mentioned the ‘tumultuous applause …, which rose to cheers, when comrade Keil brought to the attention of the assembly the victory of the revolution in Berlin and the naming of comrade Ebert as chancellor.’[ii]_

After the above comes the passage we have been discussing.  Now what is your interpretation of "missed"?


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## ayuda?

It seems like the German meaning is a bit narrower than the English meaning of *vermissen*.
Something more on the idea of:
vermissen - LEO: Übersetzung im English ⇔ German Dictionary 
*1.)* to miss so./sth. [regret the absence of—lacking ]
*2.)* to want for X
**Apparently, it is rather limiting in German [see_ Frieder _].
So that’s what I think we would have to stick to.
The English meaning is much more extensive; there should be no confusion, however, as to the original German, and CONTEXT bears that out.
And in this case *several definitions* could apply here for *missed*, which probably *should not even be considered*.
▶Correct me if I am wrong, _Muttersprachler_.

Here are just several meanings for *“to miss”* in English.  
And in this case several definition *could apply here that shouldn’t*, i.e., *#2.)* and *#3*).
miss
*1.)* felt the lack of, wanted it to be there, longed for X
*2.)* to completely fail to understand X
*3.)* didn’t participate in/attend X

*Note:* CONTEXT, CONTEXT, …CONTEXT.
It is extremely difficult to translate a small excerpt without pertinent lines of *context* that come before or after or, for that matter, *a quick summary* to help. Otherwise, it leads to a lot of confusion and unnecessary posts in the thread. I mentioned this in another one of your threads I was on. Whenever possible, please provide some,* “…dann müssen wir uns nicht den Kopf zerbrechen.”* This is not the psychic hot line. [lol]


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## Schlabberlatz

I agree with Sowka and Frieder.

My interpretation: although there was general optimism and *some* instances of enthusiasm, for example the cheers with which Keil’s speech was received, there was no *general* ("allgemein") enthusiasm. Or if it was there, Blos did not notice it, or misinterpreted the situation, because of his skepticism.

Thus, "vermisste" =


ayuda? said:


> *1.)* felt the lack of, wanted it to be there, longed for X


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## sedmont

*ayuda, thanks.
*
I don't understand how the #1 definition of vermissen works in the passage in question:

_1.) felt the lack of, wanted it to be there, longed for X
_
Here's why I don't understand. I'd be grateful if anyone can help me with the following perplexity: The whole passage seems to indicate that optimism and depression were simultaneously present, no?  If they were present simultaneously, then in what sense did Blos "miss" the optimism?  Is the passage saying that Blos missed it _later, _after it was gone? Where is the "later" indicated? Or is the passage saying that Blos "missed" the optimism when it was present -- as one misses a bus -- that is, it passed him by, did not touch him, did not penetrate to his heart, even though it was present around him?

Here's the whole thing in one piece:

_A general spirit of optimism is repeatedly attested. It was certainly not so emphatic with everyone as it was with the young soldier Bert Brennecke, who captured in verse the fraternization of soldiers with workers _[I will skip the first three verses -- sedmont]_: _

_As history then we made, _
_Each glance hopeful as the morn, _
_The light of morning played _
_On the republic newly born! _

_But also the report of a lecture given on the evening of November 9 by Wilhelm Keil, the SPD state parliament representative and editor of the Schwäbischen Tagwacht [Swabian Daily Sentinel], mentioned the ‘tumultuous applause …, which rose to cheers, when comrade Keil brought to the attention of the assembly the victory of the revolution in Berlin and the naming of comrade Ebert as chancellor.’[ii]_

_On the other hand the awareness of the German collapse and the fear of political and economic chaos will have depressed many, so that Wilhelm Blos – perhaps due to his own skepticism – missed the ‘general, alles überbrausende, intoxicating, uplifting enthusiasm.’ _


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## sedmont

Schlabberlatz, thank you.
Your distinction between "general optimism" and "general enthusiasm" might solve the question, I'm not sure. 

You add: 
_Or if it _[general enthusiasm] _was there, Blos did not notice it, or misinterpreted the situation, because of his skepticism. _

Question: In

"*die *'allgemeine, alles überbrausende, mitreißende und erhebende Begeisterung' vermißte"

doesn't the use of the definite article "die" probably mean that what follows the definite article actually existed (general enthusiasm)?


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## Schlabberlatz

sedmont said:


> doesn't the use of the definite article "die" probably mean that what follows the definite article actually existed (general enthusiasm)?


Not necessarily. Maybe it was there, maybe it was not. Mind the "vielleicht" in "vielleicht aufgrund eigener Skepsis".

"eine" might have been a better choice here than "die".

I think you may have to add something in your mind to understand why "die" is possible here:
"so daß Wilhelm Blos -- vielleicht aufgrund eigener Skepsis -- die "allgemeine, alles überbrausende, mitreißende und erhebende Begeisterung" [, die er für wünschenswert hielt,] vermißte.

It’s really a bit fuzzy. The author does not seem to know whether it would have been justified – looking at what happened – to speak of an overwhelming and general enthusiasm.


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## sedmont

Schlabberlatz, thanks again.  Your comments have been very helpful and have clarified a great deal.

I think I now see why I've felt a bit confused.  People have been treating "long for" as synonymous with "miss" -- but in English they are not interchangeable.

In English, to "miss" something _is_ to long for something, but to long for something is not necessarily to miss it.

Here's what I mean: One misses something that one has previously enjoyed but no longer experiences; thus one now longs for it.  But when one longs for something one has never experienced, one does not in English say one "misses" that thing.

So if it is correct, Schlabberlatz, that "a" general enthusiasm was never there, or "the general enthusiasm [that he considered desirable] was never there, then I think the right translation is not Blos "missed" it -- but rather Blos "longed for" it --



Schlabberlatz said:


> Or if [the general enthusiasm] was there, Blos did not notice it, or misinterpreted the situation, because of his skepticism.



I suppose I'm ready to let go of the above interpretation.  It would make no sense for the author (of the sentence we have been analyzing in this thread) to say that many were depressed, then immediately say there was an actually existing general enthusiasm everywhere, and it passed Blos by. Therefore, here's the translation of vermißte, with much help from you and everyone else, that perhaps makes the most sense at this point:

On the other hand the awareness of the German collapse and the fear of political and economic chaos will have depressed many, so that Wilhelm Blos – perhaps due to his own skepticism – longed for a ‘general, all-blowing-over, thrilling, uplifting enthusiasm.’


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## Kajjo

sedmont said:


> Here's what I mean: One misses something that one has previously enjoyed but no longer experiences; thus one now longs for it. But when one longs for something one has never experienced, one does not in English say one "misses" that thing.


The same is basically true in German.

However, you can use "vermissen" (and I suppose "to miss", too) if you from personal or reported expericence expected something to happen as usual and it does not.


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## ayuda?

Thanks for the extra context, _sedmont_.
*One quick comment:*
[IMHO] You could probably translate *vermissen* here with the descriptive “longed for”  because it is more incisive/decisive.

But given some more context now, I think you could also just use “missed,” for the English, for the simple fact that you get a very visceral/gut feeling of the meaning of “missed” from the situation/circumstances as they were presented in German [regardless of the many shades of meaning in English].

Appreciate your efforts to get the right answers for yourself.


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## anahiseri

Frieder said:


> effervescent?



Yes, that's it!  
*überbrausend* is derived from *Brause*, a kind of lemonade. It's not about downpour, but about the bubbles rising in a fizzy drink.


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## sedmont

Hi Kajjo,



Kajjo said:


> However, you can use "vermissen" (and I suppose "to miss", too) if you from personal or reported expericence expected something to happen as usual and it does not.


Thanks Kajjo.
You are right, English I think can be used in that way, though its use that way is infrequent by comparison with the other main English meaning, I believe.  As you say, if one expects something "as usual", one can speak of missing it -- but even in that situation, there is a reference to something one misses from the past.  It gets a little confusing if one is dealing with something where it is not clear that it ever happened in the past, or if it is happening in the present and one misses it not in the sense of longing for it, but as one misses a bus.  I was also thrown by the use of the definite article "die" in front of "general, alles überbrausend," etc., when in fact the universal jubilation did not actually happen. Schlabberlatz kindly extricated me from that confusion (as you have relieved me of various other confusions). Thus I have changed the English to the indefinite article "a" as in "a general, alles überbrausend," etc.,  and changed "missed" into "longed for." Apparently, Blos "missed" something he was expecting based on _something _from the past, but what? His own experiences of total jubilation or celebration on other occasions, I guess, or perhaps revolutions he had read about somewhere.


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## anahiseri

Sedmont said:
I don't understand how the #1 definition of vermissen works in the passage in question:

_1.) felt the lack of, wanted it to be there, longed for X_

Here's why I don't understand. I'd be grateful if anyone can help me with the following perplexity: The whole passage seems to indicate that optimism and depression were simultaneously present, no? If they were present simultaneously, then in what sense did Blos "miss" the optimism? Is the passage saying that Blos missed it _later, _after it was gone? Where is the "later" indicated? Or is the passage saying that Blos "missed" the optimism when it was present -- as one misses a bus -- that is, it passed him by, did not touch him, did not penetrate to his heart, even though it was present around him?

this is how I understand it: Although there might have been some optimism, it wasn't what Blos had expected; he didn't see this four-adjective enthusiasm. But perhaps it's not that the enthusiasm wasn't there, but that he wasn't aware of it due to his skepticism.


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## anahiseri

Schlabberlatz said:


> I agree with Sowka and Frieder.
> 
> My interpretation: although there was general optimism and *some* instances of enthusiasm, for example the cheers with which Keil’s speech was received, there was no *general* ("allgemein") enthusiasm. Or if it was there, Blos did not notice it, or misinterpreted the situation, because of his skepticism.
> 
> Thus, "vermisste" =


Agree.


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## sedmont

anahiseri, thank you for the helpful comment.


anahiseri said:


> this is how I understand it: Although there might have been some optimism, it wasn't what Blos had expected; he didn't see this four-adjective enthusiasm. But perhaps it's not that the enthusiasm wasn't there, but that he wasn't aware of it due to his skepticism.


"four-adjective enthusiasm" -- makes your point very well, and I think I agree. But what you say next:

"perhaps it's not that the enthusiasm wasn't there, but that he wasn't aware of it due to his skepticism" -

I now think this is not entirely right.  The author of the sentence in question has just told us that "many will have been depressed" -- so surely we pretty well _know _that the "four-adjective, everyone-including enthusiasm" did not exist.  Therefore, the phrase "due to his own skepticism" does not mean that perhaps there really was an all-encompassing enthusiasm he did not see because of his own skepticism -- rather it means something like "perhaps Blos longed for the all-encompassing jubilation because he himself _participated _in the depression," - his skepticism did not cause him to _invent _the idea that others were depressed.  Many really _were _depressed.

Does my reasoning there make sense?

Andererseits wird das Bewußtsein der deutschen Niederlage und die Furcht vor politischem und wirtschaftlichem Chaos viele bedrückt haben, so daß Wilhelm Blos -- vielleicht aufgrund eigener Skepsis -- die "allgemeine, alles überbrausende, mitreißende und erhebende Begeisterung" vermißte.


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## sedmont

anahiseri said:


> Yes, that's it!
> *überbrausend* is derived from *Brause*, a kind of lemonade. It's not about downpour, but about the bubbles rising in a fizzy drink.



Sowka suggested this was about a storm and raging or sweeping or blowing over.  But if you and Frieder are right, what about something like "bubbling over" -- as when one opens a soda bottle and it fizzes over and overflows?


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## sedmont

ayuda? said:


> You could probably translate *vermissen* here with the descriptive “longed for” because it is more incisive/decisive.


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## Schlabberlatz

sedmont said:


> On the other hand the awareness of the German collapse and the fear of political and economic chaos will have depressed many, so that Wilhelm Blos – perhaps due to his own skepticism – longed for a ‘general, all-blowing-over, thrilling, uplifting enthusiasm.’


I’d prefer:
On the other hand the awareness of the German collapse and the fear of political and economic chaos will have depressed many, so that Wilhelm Blos – perhaps due to his own skepticism – felt a lack of the ‘general, all-blowing-over, rousing, uplifting enthusiasm’ that he wanted to be there.

Edit: Maybe it should be "felt *the* lack of"?


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## sedmont

Schlabberlatz said:


> I’d prefer:
> On the other hand the awareness of the German collapse and the fear of political and economic chaos will have depressed many, so that Wilhelm Blos – perhaps due to his own skepticism – felt a lack of the ‘general, all-blowing-over, rousing, uplifting enthusiasm’ that he wanted to be there.
> 
> Edit: Maybe it should be "felt *the* lack of"?



Yes, your use of "felt the lack of" seems an advance over  "longed for" and leads me to a new possibility: "regretted the absence of a"

Thus:

_On the other hand the awareness of the German collapse and the fear of political and economic chaos will have depressed many, so that Wilhelm Blos – perhaps due to his own skepticism – regretted the absence of a ‘general, everywhere-effervescing, rousing, uplifting enthusiasm.’_

I like "felt the lack" because in the context, "long for" seems a bit too personal and inward.  "felt the lack" is also not as clear as one might like, which perhaps is why you added "that he wanted to be there."  Perhaps "regretted the absence of" is the most economical way to make the translation of vermißte less inward and personal. There is thus perhaps no longer a need to add "that he wanted to be there."

Thanks again, Schlabberlatz.  You keep saying incredibly helpful things and vastly improving my efforts.


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## Schlabberlatz

sedmont said:


> "regretted the absence of a"


Looks good, but does it convey the "fuzziness"? (#23)


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## anahiseri

It seems a bit strange to use as many as four very colourful adjectives to describe something nonexistent (the enthusiasm). And then, as sedmont wonders,

Question: In

"*die *'allgemeine, alles überbrausende, mitreißende und erhebende Begeisterung' vermißte"

doesn't the use of the definite article "die" probably mean that what follows the definite article actually existed (general enthusiasm)?

One way to explain this apparent contradiction would be that Blos has experienced this "hyper enthusiasm" on other occasions, and now he misses it. Not only does he long for it: he misses it because he has known it. Otherwise, he wouldn't describe it with so much detail (4 adjectives)


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## sedmont

Schlabberlatz said:


> Looks good, but does it convey the "fuzziness"? (#23)


good point, once again.
How about "regretted the lack" instead of "regretted the absence"?


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## anahiseri

Hmm . . .
Sedmont has said
On the other hand the awareness of the German collapse and the fear of political and economic chaos will have depressed many, so that Wilhelm Blos – perhaps due to his own skepticism – longed for a ‘general, all-blowing-over, thrilling, uplifting enthusiasm.’

I don't think it makes much sense that someone who is in a skeptical mood longs for a ‘general, all-blowing-over, thrilling, uplifting enthusiasm.’

And neither does this:
_On the other hand the awareness of the German collapse and the fear of political and economic chaos will have depressed many, so that Wilhelm Blos – perhaps due to his own skepticism – regretted the absence of a ‘general, everywhere-effervescing, rousing, uplifting enthusiasm.’_

I don't think that skepticism is a feeling that makes you regret the absence of a ‘general, everywhere-effervescing, rousing, uplifting enthusiasm.’

hmmm. . . .


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## Schlabberlatz

sedmont said:


> How about "regretted the lack" ?


My doubt relates to "regret", not to "absence".


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## sedmont

Schlabberlatz said:


> It’s really a bit fuzzy. The author does not seem to know whether it would have been justified – looking at what happened – to speak of an overwhelming and general enthusiasm.



You are the native German speaker, so perhaps I should just yield to the idea that the author of the passage was not sure if a general universal enthusiasm existed or not. But perhaps I can just challenge that for a moment and see what you think.

Andererseits wird das Bewußtsein der deutschen Niederlage und die Furcht vor politischem und wirtschaftlichem Chaos viele bedrückt haben, so daß Wilhelm Blos -- vielleicht aufgrund eigener Skepsis -- die "allgemeine, alles überbrausende, mitreißende und erhebende Begeisterung" vermißte.

The author says clearly that the collapse "will have depressed many."  That seems to be established.  This perhaps rules out the uncertainty you find in him.  

As for the phrase "perhaps because of his own skepticism" -- couldn't the author mean:

*not *
that Blos might have _invented_ or merely imagined the depression that _the author himself says _"many will have felt"

*but rather *
that Blos may have been able to feel the _actual _absence of universal jubilation because he himself _participated _in the depression many felt about the situation. The actual absence of universal celebration is thus not in doubt -- the only thing made uncertain by the author is a question about the character of Blos: _why _Blos expressed that he "longed for/felt the lack of/regretted the absence of" the universal celebration. Answer: perhaps Blos' own character was tending toward pessimism.  

Schlabberlatz, apologies if all the above is beside the point.
What do you think?


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## Schlabberlatz

sedmont said:


> that Blos may have been able to feel the _actual _absence of universal jubilation because he himself _participated _in the depression many felt about the situation. The actual absence of universal celebration is thus not in doubt


I can’t rule that out, but I still feel it’s fuzzy. And I think I can’t come up with anything better than my attempt in #34.

If one expression is not enough to obtain a good translation, use more than one expression:


> *B Grundsätzliches zur Übersetzungstechnik*
> 
> Betrachten wir […]:
> More important still is education. […]
> 
> Ein Übersetzungsvorschlag:
> A) Wichtiger noch ist die Erziehung. […]
> 
> Oder vielleicht so:
> B) Wichtiger noch ist [sind?] Erziehung und Bildung. […]
> 
> Warum ist die unter B) gegebene Fassung besser? […]:
> 1) _education_ ist nicht nur _Erziehung_, sondern ebenso auch _Bildung_. Hier sind offenbar beide Teile insgesamt gemeint, also müssen sie auch ausgedrückt werden.
> 
> Wolf Friederich: _Technik des Übersetzens_, S. 10.


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## sedmont

Schlabberlatz, thank you.

why is 

"felt the lack of the 'general...enthusiasm' that he wanted to be there" 

fuzzier than 

"regretted the lack of a 'general...enthusiasm.' "


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## Schlabberlatz

Maybe I’m wrong, but if he only felt it, that means that he may have been mistaken. If he regretted it, there must really have been a lack of enthusiasm, no?


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## sedmont

Ok, a subtle difference, but perhaps you're right. Especially if it says instead, "felt *a *lack of 'general ...enthusiasm' that he wanted to be there"


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## sedmont

Thank you very much, anahiseri.


anahiseri said:


> Hmm . . .
> Sedmont has said
> On the other hand the awareness of the German collapse and the fear of political and economic chaos will have depressed many, so that Wilhelm Blos – perhaps due to his own skepticism – longed for a ‘general, all-blowing-over, thrilling, uplifting enthusiasm.’
> 
> I don't think it makes much sense that someone who is in a skeptical mood longs for a ‘general, all-blowing-over, thrilling, uplifting enthusiasm.’


I see your point, and yet I see how the sentence can make sense, also: Blos, the sentence means, was depressed like the others mentioned. That was his skepticism: he was depressed about how the future looked. So he longed for universal jubilation. Could that make sense?

I guess the same could be said of the "regretted" version.

How would you translate the sentence differently?


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## elroy

"All-blowing-over" and "everywhere-effervescing"?  Seriously??  

These are great if you're going for the Most Stilted Translation Prize.


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## anahiseri

I am afraid that, as they say in German, I've finished up my Latin.
*Ich bin mit meinem Latein am Ende.  
*


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## Hutschi

anahiseri said:


> Yes, that's it!
> *überbrausend* is derived from *Brause*, a kind of lemonade. It's not about downpour, but about the bubbles rising in a fizzy drink.


This way a German equivalent is "überschäumende Begeisterung" überschäumend – Wiktionary , also überschwenglich, überbordend .
For überschwänglich  (spelling variant) there are lots of English translations: dict.cc | überschwänglich | Wörterbuch Englisch-Deutsch

The basic meaning of all these is that it is so big that it metaphorically moves over the borders.

"*Alles* überbrausend" adds this picture of movement across borders/limits/regions and reaching all.

"Überbrausend" can also be derived metaphorically from the verb "brausen". "1) über etwas hin brausen, es brausend bedecken:" Wörterbuchnetz - Deutsches Wörterbuch von Jacob Grimm und Wilhelm Grimm = Sowka #11 +brausend bedecken


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## Kajjo

Maybe _exuberant_?


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## elroy

A person can be exuberant, but enthusiasm/excitement/euphoria can't be exuberant.


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## sedmont

Hutschi said:


> The basic meaning of all these is that it is so big that it metaphorically moves over the borders.


How about something like "bubbling over" or "overflowing" for "alles überbrausend"


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## sedmont

elroy said:


> A person can be exuberant, but enthusiasm/excitement/euphoria can't be exuberant.


Just as there can be "calm euphoria," there can be "exuberant enthusiasm".


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## elroy

sedmont said:


> "exuberant enthusiasm"


 That sounds dissonant to me, like many of the translations suggested so far.  This is not natural English.


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## sedmont

elroy said:


> That sounds dissonant to me, like many of the translations suggested so far.  This is not natural English.


On the contrary, the expression "exuberant enthusiasm" is quite natural.  At any rate dozens of published authors use the expression "exuberant enthusiasm"  See:
exuberant enthusiasm - Google Search


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## sedmont

anahiseri said:


> I am afraid that, as they say in German, I've finished up my Latin.
> *Ich bin mit meinem Latein am Ende.  *


anahiseri, I'm not sure I understand your post, but it looks like I might have offended you in some way. If so, apologies, it was certainly not intended.


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## Schlabberlatz

elroy said:


> "All-blowing-over" and "everywhere-effervescing"?  Seriously??
> 
> These are great if you're going for the Most Stilted Translation Prize.


What about "roaring"?


> *'roar·ing* [-rıŋ]
> I adj (adv regelm)
> 
> 1. brüllend (auch fig with vor +dat)
> 
> 2. lärmend, laut
> 
> 3. tosend (etc → roar I 2)
> 
> 4. *brausend*, stürmisch (Nacht, Fest)
> roaring - Wörterbuch Englisch-Deutsch - WordReference.com



I’ve added "overwhelming" to render the "über-" part of "überbrausend".

On the other hand the awareness of the German collapse and the fear of political and economic chaos will have depressed many, so that Wilhelm Blos – perhaps due to his own skepticism – felt a lack of the ‘general, *roaring, overwhelming,* rousing, uplifting enthusiasm’ that he wanted to be there.


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## anahiseri

sedmont said:


> anahiseri, I'm not sure I understand your post, but it looks like I might have offended you in some way. If so, apologies, it was certainly not intended.



No no no! I'm sorry if my stupid sentence confused you. it just means 
I am at my wit's end!


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## sedmont

Schlabberlatz said:


> What about "roaring"?
> 
> I’ve added "overwhelming" to render the "über-" part of "überbrausend".
> 
> On the other hand the awareness of the German collapse and the fear of political and economic chaos will have depressed many, so that Wilhelm Blos – perhaps due to his own skepticism – felt a lack of the ‘general, *roaring, overwhelming,* rousing, uplifting enthusiasm’ that he wanted to be there.



People in the thread perhaps have been considering derivatives of two main meanings of alles überbrausend.

"Brausend" has been defined here as related to "roaring and storming", but also has been defined as "effervescent," and then also there was an element of going over boundaries or borders mentioned, perhaps some kind of overflowing.  Still other possibilities were mentioned. Since the thing described is enthusiasm, does not something more like "bubbling over" (like a soda bottle jostled before opening) fit in? although that would not be a graceful adverb.


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## sedmont

anahiseri said:


> No no no! I'm sorry if my stupid sentence confused you. it just means
> I am at my wit's end!


Ok, I completely understand.


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## anahiseri

for me, *bubbling over* would be perfect, as well as *effervescent*, suggested by Frieder


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## Schlabberlatz

sedmont said:


> Since the thing described is enthusiasm, does not something more like "bubbling over" (like a soda bottle jostled before opening) fit in?


I can’t imagine that Blos refers to "Brause" (fizzy soft drink) here.

It’s a quotation from the 1920s, isn’t it?


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## anahiseri

this kind of drink was invented in 1908

Der Chemiker Ludwig Scholvien erfand 1908 in Berlin Fassbrause für seinen Sohn, um ihm ein in Farbe und Geschmack dem Bier ähnliches alkoholfreies Getränk anzubieten. Z

Fassbrause – Wikipedia


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## anahiseri

In fact, nobody uses this word today for fizzy drinks, it's quite oldfashioned


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## Schlabberlatz

anahiseri said:


> this kind of drink was invented in 1908


Blos was born in 1849:
Wilhelm Blos – Wikipedia

He was 59 when "Brause" was invented. I think his style is that of the 19th century. I can’t imagine that Blos referred to "Brause".

Once again:





> *'roar·ing* [-rıŋ]
> I adj (adv regelm)
> 
> 1. brüllend (auch fig with vor +dat)
> 
> 2. lärmend, laut
> 
> 3. tosend (etc → roar I 2)
> 
> 4. *brausend*, stürmisch (Nacht, Fest)
> roaring - Wörterbuch Englisch-Deutsch - WordReference.com


Can you top that? 

(@ sedmont: ) As to "vermißte": can you locate the source of Blos’s quotation? The source may help you understand the passage in question.


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## sedmont

Schlabberlatz said:


> Blos was born in 1849:
> Wilhelm Blos – Wikipedia
> 
> He was 59 when "Brause" was invented. I think his style is that of the 19th century. I can’t imagine that Blos referred to "Brause".


Ok, please continue to illuminate my ignorance and forgive me for playing devil's advocate. If I read anahiseri's post correctly, fizzy beer existed long before soda, -- but was there no word "brausend" for beer?

But even if "brausend" did not exist before soda, or had no connection to beer (which foams over), anahiseri is right: the quoted line "überbrausend...enthusiasm" might be from around 1920, though it could be from later. But had not fizzy drinks by well before 1920, perhaps soon after they were invented in 1908, become one of the "latest things" and fairly popular in the modernist decade from 1910-1920? -- would Blos not have been familiar with this new creation if it was popular? Would it have been available in all the beer halls? (I'm just making guesses, feel free to shoot them down and educate me.)

But here's all I have as source of the "überbrausend...Begeisterung" quote, if someone is able to dig up the text somewhere:
W. Keil,_ "_Erlebnisse eines Sozialdemokraten",  2 Bde., Stuttgart 1947/48, p. 102


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## Schlabberlatz

sedmont said:


> But even if "brausend" did not exist before soda, or had no connection to beer (which foams over), anahiseri is right: the quoted line "überbrausend...enthusiasm" might be from around 1920, though it could be from later. But had not fizzy drinks by well before 1920, perhaps soon after they were invented in 1908, become one of the "latest things" and fairly popular in the modernist decade from 1910-1920? -- would Blos not have been familiar with this new creation if it was popular? Would it have been available in all the beer hlls?


All this may be true, but it does not change my opinion. I think that "brausend" = "roaring" is more probable. *Much* more probable.


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## Sowka

I don't agree with the "Brause" (or beer ...) metaphor. In my opinion, it's too static. I mean, the bubbles move upward, and then they evaporate. This is not the force that is implied in the text. Moreover, nobody would say that a glass of "Brause" was "überbrausend". It just doesn't fit.

This is what we would say, in my experience:
_Das Bier schäumt über. 
Die Brause schäumt über._

I still think that "überbrausend" refers to a strong wind.

(cross-posted with Schlabberlatz)


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## anahiseri

I think we're doing the translation the other way round. I have never denied that *roaring* is one of the translations of *brausend, *but there are more: 

*BEDEUTUNGSÜBERSICHT*
ℹ

(besonders von Wind und Wellen) ein gleichmäßiges ununterbrochenes Rauschen hervorbringen
(veraltend) duschen
sich [geräuschvoll] mit hoher Geschwindigkeit bewegen
*SYNONYME ZU BRAUSEN*
ℹ

fegen, rasen, rauschen, sausen, stürmen, tosen
abbrausen, abduschen, duschen, ein Duschbad/eine Dusche nehmen, unter die Dusche gehen; (veraltend) ein Brausebad nehmen, unter die Brause gehen
dahinjagen, dahinstürmen, fegen, rauschen, sausen, stürmen; (umgangssprachlich) brettern, rasen

Bedeutungen:

[1] laute gleichmäßige Geräusche von sich geben
[2] sehr schnell irgendwohin fahren
[3] _meist reflexiv:_ duschen
Synonyme:

[2] rasen
Sinnverwandte Wörter:

[1] rauschen, tosen
[2] sausen
Gegenwörter:

[2] stillstehen, ruhen
Beispiele:

[1] Das Wasser _braust_ über das Wehr.
[2] Gerdi _braust_ über die Landstraße nach Hause, setzt sich dann an ihren Mac und _braust_ per Webbrowser durchs Web.
[2] „Dem Staate Florida drang die Erschütterung bis in die innersten Eingeweide, und anschließend _brauste_ eine Windhose von unerhörter Gewalt über das Land um Stones Hill.“[1]
[3] „Und ich habe natürlich die erwartete Antwort darauf bekommen, nämlich sinngemäß: Geh dich _brausen_, Kollege, denn erstens sind wir nicht zuständig, zweitens ist die Angelegenheit, nach der du fragst, keine der Vollziehung und drittens kennen wir das Ganze nicht!“[2]
Redewendungen:

[2] durch die Gegend brausen
[3] sich brausen gehen (= aus dem Spiel gehen; sich entfernen – aus der Fußballsprache übertragen)
Wortbildungen:

abbrausen, aufbrausen, Brause, Brausebad, Duschbrause, Gebrause/Gebraus, Sause, Sausebraus


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## anahiseri

I honestly don't know if it's funny or ridiculous to be arguing for hours about the translation of an adjective


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## Sowka

So, of the many meanings of "brausen" that you just provided, which one would be your preferred one in the given context?


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## sedmont

Ok, well it seems like a couple of people are very confident that this is about something like "roaring" or "storming" -- so I yield to the natives!


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## anahiseri

some more examples with this adjective:
Sodann sah er dies als einen Kanal an, die uberbrausende Kraft seines Volkes abzuleiten
 Stromende Kraft richtete seine notgebrochenen Glieder auf. Nicht uberbrausende Jugendkraft; 
Das vor- uberbrausende Dampfschiff storte es bis auf Rufweite nicht im geringsten.


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## anahiseri

Sowka said:


> So, of the many meanings of "brausen" that you just provided, which one would be your preferred one in the given context?


 Vielleicht  *sausen, strömen, *aber dann kommt ja noch das *über *hinzu.


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## sedmont

perhaps if I put "roaring" near the end:

a "general, rousing, uplifting, overwhelming roaring enthusiasm"

or

general, rousing, uplifting, enthusiasm roaring over all

or 

general, rousing, uplifting, roaring enthusiasm overwhelming all

"allgemeine, alles überbrausende, mitreißende und erhebende Begeisterung"


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## anahiseri

With über, you can say, for example,
*überschäumen*, and actually I think it is more or less a synonym of *überbrausen* the way it is used here. Just my opinion, I'm not quoting.
I don't see how you can add *über* to most meanings of *brausen.*
there are a lot of English equivalents for *überschäumen*.


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## Schlabberlatz

I still think it’s an intensified version of "übertönen". Just my opinion, and just quoting myself:


> Noch eine Idee: Ist es möglicherweise eine Steigerung zu ›über*tönen*‹?
> 
> 
> 
> *übertönen* v/t (untrennb, hat) drown (out);
> der Chor übertönte die Solistin the choir drowned out the soloist;
> übertönen - Wörterbuch Deutsch-Englisch - WordReference.com
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: Also: ein Brausen wie von einem Sturm, das alles andere übertönt?
Click to expand...

#10


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## sedmont

Schlabberlatz said:


> I still think it’s an intensified version of "übertönen". Just my opinion, and just quoting myself:
> #10
> Noch eine Idee: Ist es möglicherweise eine Steigerung zu ›über*tönen*‹?
> *übertönen* v/t (untrennb, hat) drown (out); der Chor übertönte die Solistin the choir drowned out the soloist; übertönen - Wörterbuch Deutsch-Englisch - WordReference.com
> 
> Edit: Also: ein Brausen wie von einem Sturm, das alles andere übertönt?




Here are some synonyms for "drown" that might be adapted: 
flood, submerge, immerse, inundate, deluge, swamp, engulf

perhaps: "all-engulfing,"


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## Schlabberlatz

sedmont said:


> perhaps: "all-engulfing,"


I’m not sure if that’s a good translation, but I sure like it better than that "foam"-idea.


anahiseri said:


> überschäumen


What are you going to do with "alles" then?

"*alles* überschäumen" 
So the enthusiasm causes a layer of foam to settle on everything?


----------

