# koroshitatte ii n janai



## sora no ryuu

Why does
ii n janai - mean that is good.

and not
that is not good?

korosu datte ii n janai 

I think this means killing is good but shouldn't it be "killing is not good?"

It's like negative is positive, and my course tells me positive is negative, like if I ask if you want to eat it's 

tabemasen ka? 

because 

tabemasu ka? is too forward and viewed negatively. Can a native shed some light? arigato gozaimasu.


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## Derselbe

English examples for the same phenomenon:

Don't you want to eat something?
Why don't we meet tomorrow?
Isn't killing a cool thing?
Killing is cool, don't you think?


What I don't really understand here is "datte". I was expection something like "no ga" or at least I thought you need "n" to connect short form verbs with "da". Like korosu n da. Can anyone explain that to me?


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## lammn

Derselbe said:


> What I don't really understand here is "datte". I was expection something like "no ga" or at least I thought you need "n" to connect short form verbs with "da". Like korosu n da. Can anyone explain that to me?


 
No, "datte/tatte" in this context means ても/でも, or "even".


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## Derselbe

Wow. Never heard of だって in that meaning. I thought, "even" was さえ.
Is there a difference to
殺すさえいいんじゃない？
Thanks!


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## sora no ryuu

Thanks for your replies so far. 

So would a person never say "that isn't good?" but instead always say "that is bad"? As far as I can tell "that isn't good" could always mean "that's good, isn't it?" 

One other thing on this topic:
How could you tell the difference between 

korosu datte ii n janai
and
korosu da tte ii n janai.

Wouldn't the second one mean "He said killing, it's good?" or can tte only be used at the end of the sentence in this fashion?

My understanding of "n" is that it's an explanatory term which gives extra oomph to a statement, but I didn't think it was always a necessary term.

"onaka ga itai n desu". vs. "onaka ga itai"  Explanation vs. declaration? My understand is pretty limited. 

Thanks


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## Morrow

sora no ryuu said:


> koros*hi** t*atte ii + [(n) janai / no / n-da (yo) / no-yo / no-ka(i) / yo / ze/ ... ]



Morrow


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## lammn

Derselbe said:


> Is there a difference to 殺すさえいいんじゃない？


I have never heard people saying ~さえいいんじゃない.



sora no ryuu said:


> korosu datte ii n janai and
> korosu da tte ii n janai.


 
Both are invalid.  It should be rewritten as either:

1a. Koroshitatte ii n janai?
(Verb ta-form) + tte ii n janai (Wow, Morrow beats me to it)
1b. Hitogoroshi datte ii n janai? 
(Noun) datte ii n janai (But 1a is the commonly used form)​


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## sora no ryuu

While I appreciate your replies Morrow and Lammn I wonder if you could provide broader examples. 

"korosu datte ii n janai" is a line from the movie "Battle Royale" used right before a person gets killed. I'm using unsubtitled movies/shows as learning aids so I may have misheard. Could you explain further on why it is incorrect? 

If it truly says Koroshita tte ii n janai then I don't get it. "Killing (past tense) (it was said) it's good." That's what I get from that. Would she be implying something like "They say killing is good ya know?" 

In addition, could you explain why "Korosu da tte ii n janai" is invalid? Is it because "killing" is not a noun and therefore shouldn't be followed with da/datta/desu? 

Thanks


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## lammn

sora no ryuu said:


> "korosu datte ii n janai" is a line from the movie "Battle Royale" used right before a person gets killed. I'm using unsubtitled movies/shows as learning aids so I may have misheard. Could you explain further on why it is incorrect?
> 
> If it truly says Koroshita tte ii n janai then I don't get it. "Killing (past tense) (it was said) it's good." That's what I get from that. Would she be implying something like "They say killing is good ya know?"


 
I think I have explained in my post #7 of this thread already.

To join a verb with "datte" or "tatte", you need to use the ta-form of the verb. Since "korosu" conjugates to "koroshita", *not* "koroshida", it becomes "koroshitatte", *not* "koroshidatte", let alone "korosu datte". 

The meaning has nothing to do with the past tense.
It simply means "even to kill (is...), or "even killing is...".



sora no ryuu said:


> In addition, could you explain why "Korosu da tte ii n janai" is invalid? Is it because "kill" is not a noun and therefore shouldn't be followed with da/datta/desu?


 
Yup, you've got the idea.


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## Derselbe

Morrow said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sora no ryuu*
> 
> 
> koros*hi** t*atte ii + [(n) janai / no / n-da (yo) / no-yo / no-ka(i) / yo / ze/ ... ]
> 
> Morrow


 
That explains my confusion about "korosu datte"



> ... let alone "korosu datte"


Just to make sure: what do you mean by "let alone..."

Is there a difference between:
殺していいんじゃない
and
殺したっていいんじゃない


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## sora no ryuu

So lammn:

Datte and Tatte when added to the verb + ta form means "even" instead of "but" and this applies whenever the ending is ta or da such as Tabetatte or Nondatte? and the ta form has nothing to do with past tense in this sense but is simply a conjugation used to mean "even"? 

So Tabetatte ii n janai means "Even eating is good"?

Am I on the right track?

Thanks for your help so far.


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## Derselbe

sora no ryuu said:


> So Tabetatte ii n janai means "Even eating is good"?


 
I was just talking to another Japanese friend and she said there was no difference between "tabete mo ii" and "tabetatte ii". That is consistent with lammn's post #3. So are you familiar with construction like

tabete mo ii desu
koroshite mo ii desu
ashita de mo ii desu

If she's right, "datte" and "tatte" are just other ways to describe the same thing. So:

tabete mo ii desu = tabetatte ii desu
koroshite mo ii desu = koroshitatte ii desu
ashita de mo ii desu = ashita datte ii desu



> and the ta form has nothing to do with past tense in this sense


This happens quite often by the way as in:
tabetara (conditional)
tabeta hou ga ii


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## sora no ryuu

So if tabete mo ii desu means "It's OK to eat" then koroshitatte ii desu must mean "It's OK to kill" and koroshitatte ii n janai must mean the same thing, but maybe it's a little softer than koroshitatte ii desu? 

Thanks


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## Wishfull

sora no ryuu said:


> So if tabete mo ii desu means "It's OK to eat" then koroshitatte ii desu must mean "It's OK to kill" and koroshitatte ii n janai must mean the same thing, but maybe it's a little softer than koroshitatte ii desu?
> 
> Thanks


 
Yes. I think so.

" Koroshitatte ii desu" means "It's OK to kill"
 "Koroshitatte ii n janai" means "It might be OK to kill."
or "(Don't you think that) it might be OK to kill?"


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## sora no ryuu

Domo Arigatou Gozaimasu. This thread has been very helpful to me.


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## Morrow

sora no ryuu said:


> "koroshi tatte ii *n* janai" is the line from the movie "Battle Royale" used right before a person gets killed.



I'm afraid starting with the wrong premise won't get you anywhere.

Morrow


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## Derselbe

Morrow said:


> I'm afraid starting with the wrong premise won't get you anywhere.
> 
> Morrow


 
So it's "ii janai" いいじゃない?

Isn't that wrong grammar? I always thought い-adjective + じゃない　doesn't work without ん.


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## Flaminius

Morrow said:


> sora no ryuu said:
> 
> 
> 
> "koroshi tatte ii *n* janai" is the line from the movie "Battle Royale" used right before a person gets killed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm afraid starting with the wrong premise won't get you anywhere.
Click to expand...

But "koroshi tatte ii n janai" is an authentic Japanese sentence just as you yourself pointed out in a previous post:


Morrow said:


> sora no ryuu said:
> 
> 
> 
> koros*hi** t*atte ii + [(n) janai / no / n-da (yo) / no-yo / no-ka(i) / yo / ze/ ... ]
Click to expand...


Perhaps you might want to explain as to what you think is wrong and why?


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