# All dialects: حق / مال (possessive)



## MarcB

I know that other words are used in the Levant and Africa. My question is whether حق او مال  are interchangeable in Arabia or if there is a difference.


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## ayed

MarcB said:


> I know that other words are used in the Levant and Africa. My question is whether حق او مال are interchangeable in Arabia or if there is a difference.


Welcome back , MarcB..
We , in Saudi Arabia, often use حق only.As for the eastern province ( Dammam) , they may used it interchangabely because of proximity to EAU , Qatar,Kuwait ..


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## WadiH

MarcB said:


> I know that other words are used in the Levant and Africa. My question is whether حق او مال are interchangeable in Arabia or if there is a difference.


 
They are not interchangeable.  مال is only used on the Gulf coast.


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## MarcB

Thanks guys. I have heard some people use both, but they were on the coast.


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## ayed

Wadi Hanifa said:


> They are not interchangeable. مال is only used on the Gulf coast.


Have you forgotten the eastern province such as : al-Ahsa, Qateef , Buqayq and al-Jubail, Wadi?



> MarcB :but they were on the coast


Surely, especially the east coast


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## WadiH

ayed said:


> Have you forgotten the eastern province such as : al-Ahsa, Qateef , Buqayq and al-Jubail, Wadi?


 
لا طبعاً
But those are included within the term "Gulf coast."  By the way, I have been to Bgayg بقيق a few times, and most of its residents are bedouins, especially from بني هاجر, and they don't say مال.


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## WadiH

Actually, in their purest form, the bedouin and Najdi dialects did not even use حق very often.  It's almost an innovation and is considered somewhat ineloquent (I've never heard it in Nabati poetry for example).  One of the differences that Western scholars note between bedouin and urban dialects is that bedouin dialects tended to avoid such "genetive exponents" (is that what they're called?).  Of course that's no longer the case today.  Urban Hejazi speech uses حق a lot though, so maybe that's where it originally came from.


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## ayed

> Wadi : within the term "Gulf coast." By the way, I have been to Bgayg بقيق a few times, and most of its residents are Bedouins, especially from بني هاجر, and they don't say مال​


I do know that this term is applied to"Gulfians".However, MarcB asks if the two words are interchanged. Surely, the dwellers of the eastern coast "may" do as I aforesaid confirmed. You singled out Bani Hajir which is not enough evidence to negate that some people out there do not interchange the words "hagg" and "maal".​


> Wadi : Actually, in their purest form, the Bedouin and Najdi dialects did not even use حق very often.​


So we , Bedouin( included me ) don't use the word حق very often! How say so? You , Wadi Hanifa , or authentic sources of your evidences?​ 


> Wadi : It's almost an innovation and is considered somewhat ineloquent. (I've never heard it in Nabati poetry for example).​


Just because you haven't heard it in Nabati poetry doesn't mean that it is not existent in another sources. 
Here are two sources :
1.Lisan al-'Arab says:​الحقَّة: الحقُّ وهي أخَصُّ منهُ لدلالتها على حصَّة منهُ معيَّنة. تقول هذه حَقَّتي أي حقّي المخصوص
2.al-WaseeT says :
الحَقّة : النصيبُ. تقول: هذه حَقّتي​


> Wadi : One of the differences that Western scholars note between Bedouin and urban dialects is that Bedouin dialects tended to avoid such "genitive exponents" (is that what they're called?)​


How come that Western scholars teach you of your own language!? We often use it in our daily life , Wadi!! ​


> Wadi : Urban Hejazi speech uses حق a lot though, so maybe that's where it originally came from.​


A word or a dialect or a language is not a property of or confined to certain people. Had you read the history of Arabian dialects and what has been said of Najed dialect, you would have had changed your mind about your comments and statements. ​


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## WadiH

ayed said:


> I do know that this term is applied to"Gulfians".However, MarcB asks if the two words are interchanged. Surely, the dwellers of the eastern coast "may" do as I aforesaid confirmed. You singled out Bani Hajir which is not enough evidence to negate that some people out there do not interchange the words "hagg" and "maal".​




Well when I said مال is only used on the Gulf coast, I certainly did not mean to exclude the cities you mentioned.  I just singled out Bgayg as a special case.  Perhaps you've misunderstood me.​



> So we , Bedouin( included me ) don't use the word حق very often! How say so? You , Wadi Hanifa , or authentic sources of your evidences?​




That's not what I said at all.  I myself use it every day.  I just meant that there is evidence that, although it has always been used, it was not used _as often_ as it is today.​ 



> Just because you haven't heard it in Nabati poetry doesn't mean that it is not existent in another sources.
> Here are two sources :
> 1.Lisan al-'Arab says:​الحقَّة: الحقُّ وهي أخَصُّ منهُ لدلالتها على حصَّة منهُ معيَّنة. تقول هذه حَقَّتي أي حقّي المخصوص
> 2.al-WaseeT says :
> الحَقّة : النصيبُ. تقول: هذه حَقّتي​




That's a great piece of information.  I'm glad you mentioned it to me.  So the word is indeed quite old (especially since ابن منظور deliberately stuck to older sources).  This is just more evidence that the dialects of the Peninsula are the most conservative of all Arabic dialects.​ 
However, just because a word is "correct" doesn't mean it is بلاغة to use it excessively.  Otherwise, we would encounter this word in Classical texts or poetry, or in Nabati.



> How come that Western scholars teach you of your own language!? We often use it in our daily life , Wadi!! ​




Because the way we speak today is not exactly the same as the way our parents and grandparents spoke.  ألا ترى أن كلام كبار السن لدينا أبلغ من كلام الجيل الحالي مع أن اللهجة هي نفسها؟.  As you know, most of the serious linguists who have studied these dialects were Western, while serious Arab linguists who have studied them can barely be counted on one hand.​ 


> A word or a dialect or a language is not a property of or confined to certain people. Had you read the history of Arabian dialects and what has been said of Najed dialect, you would have had changed your mind about your comments and statements. ​


 
Yes, that is true.  But dialects do influence each other and words are borrowed by one dialect from another.  Don't you notice that the younger generation in Riyadh use many words and particles from Hejaz, Egypt, Iraq, and the Gulf?


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## MarcB

So if I understand everything correctly,*حق*  is used in Hejaz and Najed. The Eastern Province and other Gulf countries mainly use *مال* . Some people use both but maybe it is the influence of another dialect.


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## Hemza

Wadi Hanifa said:


> Actually, in their purest form, the bedouin and Najdi dialects did not even use حق very often.



I support your view because in Hassania dialect, there is no word for possessive, only the اضافة is used although youngers tend to use the Moroccan possessive words (ديال, تاع, متاع)


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## fdb

ḥagg is used in San’a, and I think most other parts of the Yemen.


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## momai

The use of this word in Syrian Arabic in the sense of "price" is probably also related to this usage in Arabia.


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## Abu Talha

When native speakers use مال in this sense do they think of it as اسم موصول ما + حرف جر لِ ?

Or is it the noun مالٌ for sure?

One (by no means conclusive) clue might be if مال does not become مالة for feminine objects.


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## Ihsiin

Abu Talha said:


> One (by no means conclusive) clue might be if مال does not become مالة for feminine objects.



It does.


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## Abu Talha

Ihsiin said:


> It does.


Thanks.

Too bad, in a way. I wanted to try using this for الفصحى and avoid الخاص بـ which I just can't get used to.


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## elroy

Even if its origin were ما + لـِ, you still wouldn’t be able to just appropriate it and use it in MSA!  It wouldn’t make any sense.


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## Abu Talha

Probably not.

But if it was used in a colloquial dialect it would give it some idiomatic legitimacy.

Grammatically I think ما+ل it is on par with الخاص ب or الذي ل, no?

But it's a moot point since it's obviously not used in dialect.


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## elroy

Abu Talha said:


> But if it was used in a colloquial dialect it would give it some idiomatic legitimacy.


 It doesn't really work that way.   Especially with function words and the like.


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## Abu Talha

Well no, you're right. But at worst it would have been an error of the likes of using بس or the existential في in الفصحى. But at least personally preferable to the accepted alternative الخاص ب.

But as i said, it's moot.


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