# ajatellaan ottaneet



## Gavril

If I said,

_Varkaiden ajatellaan ottaneet maalaus
_
could it mean both of the following?

"The thieves are thought to have taken the painting"
and
"Thieves (= some unknown thieves) are thought to have taken the painting"

I ask because _Varkaat ottivat sen _means "the thieves took it", whereas _Varkaita otti sen_ means "some thieves took it", and I thought that this difference might be reflected in the above construction as well.

Kiitos


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## sakvaka

You mean something like _varkaita ajatellaan ottaneen maalauksen_? No, I don't think this would work. It's better to add one word to signify an indefinite group: _joukon varkaita (varasjoukon) ajatellaan ottaneen maalauksen_.

The main verb, _ajatellaan_, is passive here, but it has no influence on the object and doesn't change it to nominative. Why not? Kirjoita lause auki: _ajatellaan, että joukko varkaita on ottanut maalauksen._ As you can see, they belong to different sentences. Also: _Teidän toivotaan lukevan tämä*n* kirja*n*.

_And as we discussed in another thread, _ottaneen_ doesn't get _-t_ in plural.


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## Gavril

> The main verb, _ajatellaan_, is passive here, but it has no influence on the object and doesn't change it to nominative. Why not? Kirjoita lause auki: _ajatellaan, että joukko varkaita on ottanut maalauksen._ As you can see, they belong to different sentences. Also: _Teidän toivotaan lukevan tämä*n* kirja*n*.
> _


I don't disagree that _maalaus _should be accusative, but I don't know if the test you did above ("Kirjoita lause auki") would work with sentences such as the following:

_Hänen on otettava se. _-> _On tarpeellinen, että hän ottaa sen_.

However, this isn't exactly the same test (which may be the point).


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## sakvaka

Gavril said:


> I don't disagree that _maalaus _should be accusative, but I don't know if the test you did above ("Kirjoita lause auki") would work with sentences such as the following:
> 
> _Hänen on otettava se. _-> _On tarpeellista, että hän ottaa sen_.
> 
> However, this isn't exactly the same test (which may be the point).



But that's not a _lauseenvastike_...


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## Gavril

What about the following examples -- what case would the object be in?

_Hänen on annettu varastaa maalaus / maalauksen_
_On yritetty varastaa maalaus / maalauksen_

Kiitos vk


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## sakvaka

_Hänen on annettu varastaa maalau*s* _ja _On yritetty varastaa maalau*s*_. In the first example, _maalaus_ belongs to (as an object) the infinitive _varastaa_, which is an immediate object of the passive form _on annettu_. Also: _Häntä houkutti ajatus varastaa maalaus _(_houkutti_ is monopersonal), but:_ Hän toivoi saavansa varastaa maalaukse*n*_ (personal).

The second example works with the same logic: _maalaus_ is the object of _varastaa_, which is the object of _on yritetty_, which is — passive. But: _Heidän on toivottu varastavan maalaukse*n*_ (referative lauseenvastike). _Me olemme yrittäneet varastaa maalaukse*n *_(personal). 

Interestingly, colloquial speech in pl. 1st follows the same rules as the passive: _Me ollaan yritetty varastaa maalau*s*_.


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## Gavril

sakvaka said:


> _Hänen on annettu varastaa maalau*s* _ja _On yritetty varastaa maalau*s*_. In the first example, _maalaus_ belongs to (as an object) the infinitive _varastaa_, which is an immediate object of the passive form _on annettu_.



What if _antaa _were not passive? (E.g., _Sinä annoit hänen varastaa maalaus / maalauksen_)


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## sakvaka

Gavril said:


> What if _antaa _were not passive? (E.g., _Sinä annoit hänen varastaa maalaus / maalauksen_)



When the verb is neither passive or monopersonal, genitive is used. I already mentioned this, but (as a good Savonian*) hid it in the text so that no one would ever find it. 



> _Hän toivoi saavansa varastaa maalaukse*n*_ (personal).



So, _Sinä annoit hänen varastaa maalauksen. _But: _Sinun teki mieli antaa hänen varastaa maalaus._

* I suppose you already know something about these tribe stereotypes...


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## Gavril

sakvaka said:


> When the verb is neither passive or monopersonal, genitive is used. I already mentioned this, but (as a good Savonian*) hid it in the text so that no one would ever find it.
> 
> 
> 
> So, _Sinä annoit hänen varastaa maalauksen. _But: _Sinun teki mieli antaa hänen varastaa maalaus._
> 
> * I suppose you already know something about these tribe stereotypes...



En niitä tunne oikein hyvin -- koskisikohan tämä Savolaisia?


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## sakvaka

Ei näyttäisi koskevan... Varsinaissuomalaiset asuvat Turun seudulla.

We Savonians are thought to be mentally "twisted"; an example would be a Yotube video where a blind lady was waiting for a bus, and asked a 'gentleman' whether the bus had already gone. There was no simple answer, and the strong dialect made it even worse (_Eiköhän se ois suattanna männä luikahottoo - mitenhännä tuon ottoo..._

Off-topic ends here.


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