# بعض



## Idris

In Classical Arabic, does بعض always mean "one of", or can it also mean "some of"?


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## Masjeen

Idris said:


> In Classical Arabic, does بعض always mean "one of", or can it also mean "some of"?


 
yeah, it means the both


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## Idris

Masjeen said:


> yeah, it means the both


 
That is disappointing, because in almost all Classical Arabic books it says قال بعض العلماء for example, then this could either mean "One of the scholars said," or "Some of the scholars said." And we'll not know which.


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## Prickly Pearl

I would rather says that it means "a few" when combined with an accountable word. And "some of" when combined with a non-accountable word.
قال بعض العلماء = Some scholars said
It does not mean "one of" them. What makes you think so? The singular form of the verb?


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## azeid

Idris said:


> That is disappointing, because in almost all Classical Arabic books it says قال بعض العلماء for example, then this could either mean "One of the scholars said," or "Some of the scholars said." And we'll not know which.


I disagree with Masjeen,بعض is referring for more than one and it can be translated to "part of" a mass not quantity.In this context قال بعض العلماء,it means group of them or some of them.


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## Masjeen

Idris said:


> That is disappointing, because in almost all Classical Arabic books it says قال بعض العلماء for example, then this could either mean "One of the scholars said," or "Some of the scholars said." And we'll not know which.


 
wait, 
قال بعض العلماء = Some of the scholars said
قال احد العلماء =One of the scholars said


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## Masjeen

azeid said:


> i disagree with masjeen,بعض is referring for more than one and it can be translated to "part of" a mass not quantity.in this context قال بعض العلماء,it means group of them or some of them.


 
*احيانا تستعمل مع واحد مثل قولهم *
*قال بعض أهل العلم بوجوب كذا وكذا*​


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## azeid

masjeen said:


> *احيانا تستعمل مع واحد مثل قولهم *
> *قال بعض أهل العلم بوجوب كذا وكذا*​


لا أعتقد بذلك و فى هذا النص مازالت تشير إلى أكثر من واحد 
أما إذا أردنا التعبير عن واحد بعينه
فيجب أن يكون النص قال أحد أهل العلم
​


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## Masjeen

azeid said:


> لا أعتقد بذلك و فى هذا النص مازالت تشير إلى أكثر من واحد
> 
> أما إذا أردنا التعبير عن واحد بعينه
> فيجب أن يكون النص قال أحد أهل العلم​


* ربما.. ربما*​


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## Idris

azeid said:


> لا أعتقد بذلك و فى هذا النص مازالت تشير إلى أكثر من واحد
> 
> أما إذا أردنا التعبير عن واحد بعينه
> فيجب أن يكون النص قال أحد أهل العلم​


 
I don't think many classical authors use قال أحد أهل العلم in their books.


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## azeid

Idris said:


> I don't think many classical authors use قال أحد أهل العلم in their books.


So what do you think?The reason is that when you want to refer to more than one, you would say قال بعض أهل العلم أو قال بعض العلماء and when you want to refer to the majority of them,you say جمهور العلماء أو قال الجمهور but when you want to refer to a specific one you would name him like قال فلان.you know in classical books,It was important to name the people with their names and to mention the persons that they heard from them قال فلان عن فلان عن فلان and this is what we call العنعنة.


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## Idris

azeid said:


> So what do you think?The reason is that when you want to refer to more than one, you would say قال بعض أهل العلم أو قال بعض العلماء and when you want to refer to the majority of them,you say جمهور العلماء أو قال الجمهور but when you want to refer to a specific one you would name him like قال فلان.you know in classical books,It was important to name the people with their names and to mention the persons that they heard from them قال فلان عن فلان عن فلان and this is what we call العنعنة.


 
Well, in fiqh books I've read a lot of time قال بعض أصحابنا  or وهو قول بعض أصحابنا etc.


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## azeid

Idris said:


> Well, in fiqh books I've read a lot of time قال بعض أصحابنا  or وهو قول بعض أصحابنا etc.


It still refers to more than one and it means here "some of our colleagues" in the classical writing.


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## Idris

Here are some examples from the same book:

قال صاحب البحر: قال بعض أصحابنا بخراسان : لفظ الشافعي يقتضي أنه لا تجوز الطهارة به لأنه عرق​ 
قال الطحاوي : قال الليث : قال بعض الناس : إنه سبعون يوما​ 
ولا يكون في المسألة قولان كما وهم بعض أصحابنا​ 

Note that in the last sentence, the word is not _wa hum_ but _wahima._

There are countless other examples, but I think these should suffice.

EDIT: But notice how أحد has been used in the same book:

وهذا الذي قاله الشيخ أبو عمرو ضعيف مردود لا نعرفه لأحد من الأصحاب
 
وقال : ليس أحد أحق بمجلسي من يوسف بن يحيى ، وليس أحد من أصحابي أعلم منه
 
وهو أحد الفقهاء الشافعية
 
ولا أعلم فيه خلافا لأحد من العلماء
 
فبهتان لا يعرفه أحد من أصحابنا​


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## azeid

After revising some sources like المصباح المنير and discussions with other colleagues of me, بعض could be used to refer to the singular in the classic Arabic literature like the context "قال بعض العلماء",Sorry for that.


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## Idris

The trouble is how to translate such a sentence as قال بعض العلماء

Suppose that it is impossible to investigate whether the author means one scholar or many, how to go about the translation, then?

One way will be to write, "One or more scholars said..."

But I suppose بعض is always less than the half of a group, isn't it?


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## Idris

What about in MSA? Does بعض always mean "some" (i.e. more than one) in MSA?


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## AndyRoo

Idris said:


> What about in MSA? Does بعض always mean "some" (i.e. more than one) in MSA?


 
I've never seen it meaning anything other than "some", except in phrases like بعضنا البعض and بعضهم البعض , which mean "one another" or "each other".

However, Hans Wehr says it can mean "one". He also specificically says بعض العلماء means "one (or some) of the scholars".


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## Josh_

I, also, have never seen it meaning anything other than "some" in modern usage.  So I would venture to say that is only how it is used, or how it is used 99% of the time in modern times.



AndyRoo said:


> except in phrases like بعضنا البعض and بعضهم البعض , which mean "one another" or "each other".



Actually, literally speaking, it means "some" here as well. Take, for example, the sentence:

 .يساعد بعضُهم بعضًا/البعضَ

The first بعض is the subject and the second is the object.  Literally, it is "some of them help some."   That sounds unidiomatic in English, however, and so it is translated as "they help one another / each other."

However, using بعضنا البعض and بعضهم البعض, in which the two بعض's are right next to each other (the only change being the pronoun suffix attached to the first بعض), is so common that it has all but become a set expression, it seems.   That's why we will see sentences such as "نتعامل مع بعضنا البعض." Prescriptively speaking, that would be grammatically incorrect, the correct version being "يتعامل بعضُنا مع بعضٍ." But descriptively speaking, I am not sure we could call it wrong, since, as I said, it is so very frequently used that way.


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## azeid

Idris said:


> What about in MSA? Does بعض always mean "some" (i.e. more than one) in MSA?


This is what I was believing in but now it is really confusing as we take the classic rules as the reference so the understanding of this word will always depend on the knowledge of both the writer and the reader but I can confirm that many natives will consider بعض as more than one in their daily usage.I have never seen anyone translates this word بعض "to One or more",It is always translated to "some" but I think we should consider this now as I think "Some" couldn't be used to mean only one and it is always referring to more than one (We need confirmation from our English speakers/natives colleagues) so in this case and especially when translating the classic books we should consider this translation of بعض "One or more" in the contexts like "قال بعض الناس".


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## Ghabi

azeid said:


> "Some" couldn't be used to mean only one and it is always referring to more than one (We need confirmation from our English speakers/natives colleagues) so in this case and especially when translating the classic books we should consider this translation of بعض "One or more" in the contexts like "قال بعض الناس".


In English we have to distinguish between "some scholar" (a certain scholar) and "some scholars" (a few scholars), so no way to cheat.

In _One thousand and One Nights_, the phrase كما قال بعضهم is often used when poems are quoted (you know they always quote poems even though they're going to be killed by the jinn the next second), and I always think that the phrase means "as one of the poets said".


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## AndyRoo

Josh_ said:


> Actually, literally speaking, it means "some" here as well. Take, for example, the sentence:
> 
> .يساعد بعضُهم بعضًا/البعضَ
> 
> The first بعض is the subject and the second is the object. Literally, it is "some of them help some." That sounds unidiomatic in English, however, and so it is translated as "they help one another / each other."


 
I agree mostly, but if in "بعضنا البعض", "we" is referring to two people or if we say "بعضهما البعض" or even "بعضي البعض", I think it would be difficult to see بعض as meaning "some".


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## Josh_

azeid said:


> This is what I was believing in but now it is really confusing as we take the classic rules as the reference so the understanding of this word will always depend on the knowledge of both the writer and the reader but I can confirm that many natives will consider بعض as more than one in their daily usage.


I would take actual usage in the language as the reference, not classical grammars, which may be outdated as far as modern usage is concerned.  So if you say that the majority of natives will consider it more than one, then that is the main meaning of the word nowadays. 

As far as translating classic texts, however, that is another matter.  Referencing the classic grammars might be necessary, as well as a translation other than "some" in order to better represent the ideas of the classical authors.



> I have never seen anyone translates this word بعض "to One or more",It is always translated to "some" but I think we should consider this now as I think "Some" couldn't be used to mean only one and it is always referring to more than one (We need confirmation from our English speakers/natives colleagues) so in this case and especially when translating the classic books we should consider this translation of بعض "One or more" in the contexts like "قال بعض الناس".


As far as modern texts I think we could probably safely use "some" in most cases, but as for classical texts, it might be more problematic.  If "some" is not acceptable, then "one or more" may have to do. I cannot think of anything better, myself.  The only problem with "one or more" is that it does not indicate that only a part of something is intended like بعض does.



AndyRoo said:


> I agree mostly, but if in "بعضنا البعض", "we" is referring to two people or if we say "بعضهما البعض" or even "بعضي البعض", I think it would be difficult to see بعض as meaning "some".


If بعض can also mean one, as has have been discussed in this thread, then I do not see a problem. As we have seen in this thread it seems that "some" is not completely compatible with بعض; the meanings of the words do not completely overlap.  This also means that the word "some" cannot be used in all contexts.  

If a literal translation of يساعد بعضهما البعض, for example, is needed than I would just say "one helps the other," depending on context, of course.  

Edited to add: Another thing I was thinking of in terms of that kind of a literal translation is that with phrases such as "one helps the other" or "some of them help some" the idea of reciprocity is not necessarily present, whereas with بعض(ـهم، ـنا، إلخ) البعض it seems to be present.  I suppose this is why it is normally translated as "one another" or each other."

Out of curiosity I checked the Lane Lexicon definition of the word: 



> _Some, or somewhat or some one_, (lit. _a thing_,) of things, or of a thing: Th says that it signifies thus accord. to all the grammarians; (Msb, TA; ) except Hisham, as will be seen hereafter: (TA: ) or _a part, or portion_, (A, Msb, K, ) of a thing, (Msb, ) or of anything; (A, K; ) whether little or much: (TA: ) accord. to both these explanations, it may denote the greater part; as eight of ten: (Mb : ) [thus it signifies _some
> one_ or _more_; and it relates to persons and to other things:]


According to that, بعض merely denotes a part or portion of something, whether it is one part or more than one, just not the whole thing.  So again, "some" may not be applicable in all cases.


Regardless of that, going back to what I said in the other post, the structure بعض(ـهم، ـنا، إلخ) البعض seems to have become a set phrase meaning "one another" or "each other." So I imagine it could take any pronoun suffix, at least when it indicates more than one.  When the phrase indicates one, such as  "بعضي البعض,"  it could only mean something like "part(s) of me ... (other) part(s)," depending on context, of course.


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## Ghabi

Is the meaning of "one/a certain" common in older texts? Following is the opening of the story "The Donkey and the Ox":



> قال: اعلمي يا ابنتي انه كان لبعض التجاراموال ومواش وكان له زوجة وأولاد وكان الله تعالى أعطاه معرفة ألسن الحيوانات والطير وكان مسكن ذلك التاجر الأرياف وكان عنده في داره حمار وثور فأتى يومًا الثور إلى مكان الحمار فوجده منكوسًا مرشوشًا وفي معلفه شعير مغربل وتبن مغربل وهو راقد مستريح وفي بعض الأوقات ركبه صاحبه لحاجة تعرض له ويرجع على حاله فلما كان في بعض الأيام سمع التاجر الثور ...



Seems a pretty common usage. Or is it just a peculiarity of the _Arabian Nights_?


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## Talibun

Masjeen said:


> wait,
> قال بعض العلماء = Some of the scholars said
> قال احد العلماء =One of the scholars said


Bonjour,

c'est "قال احد العلماء" ou "قال احد *من* العلماء" ? 

Merci.

With Babylon Arabic-English  بعض:

pron.      several, some 

n.      a few, little 

adv.      somewhat 

adj.      few, any


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## azeid

Josh_ said:


> I would take actual usage in the language as the reference, not classical grammars, which may be outdated as far as modern usage is concerned. So if you say that the majority of natives will consider it more than one, then that is the main meaning of the word nowadays.


In Arabic, The classic grammar and vocabularies usage are the reference not the current usage,It may be applied on dialects.
The Fusha or what you call MSA is still the only formal writing language between all Arabs so the classic grammars are applied and still the only valid ones.Regarding the vocabularies, you may find some vocabularies are outdated and some of them differ in meaning from country to another.The main difference,I consider,between the classic and modern writing is the style. 
Returning to بعض , The problem here that even some natives will consider it as more than one but you can't prevent anyone from using it if he already knows that so if a writer or a poet use it to refer to one so I can't blame him because the reference is the classical usage and he would call me ignorant( This is not offensive ,just lack of knowledge) if I told him that this isn't correct to use it like that.
I think it depends on the context like the one that Ghabi quoted from the story which obviously means only one 





> قال: اعلمي يا ابنتي انه كان لبعض التجار اموال ومواش وكان له زوجة وأولاد


If I'm not sure about the meaning,I think that it is better to translate it as "one or more" rather than "Some".
By the way,It is really a good discussion.


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## ajami

salams,
as a الكناية it  could also be used for one.In other languages it is used as "one of the".As in the above mentioned example of بعض التجار.


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## Josh_

azeid said:


> In Arabic, The classic grammar and vocabularies usage are the reference not the current usage,It may be applied on dialects.


Actually, I misspoke.  I saw that you had used classical rules, and I followed suit with classical grammars.  What I meant to say was the classical dictionaries, as we are talking about the meaning of the word بعض, not the grammar of it.  

As I said, if I wanted to understand how a word is used in today's world, I would take the actual usage of that word in the language as my point of reference, not a hundreds year old dictionary which may not  represent the exact nature of current usage. Languages change and evolve after all (including meanings of words), they are not static. If, on the other hand, I wanted to understand how a word was used hundreds of years ago (e.g. if I am translating an medieval Arabic text)  I would consult an an older dictionary.


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## WadiH

بعض can still be used to mean "one" or "one or more."  It's true that in MSA, people are more likely to just say أحد العلماء, but بعض العلماء occurs also and certainly would not be considered incorrect.

Colloquially, we often say things like لا يسمعونك بعض الناس, or بعض الناس زعلانين when only one person is being referred to.


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## Sarah Bundogji

You can usually tell from context whether it's singular or plural, right?


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## Ali Smith

Yes. For instance,

تزوجتْ فاطمةُ بعضَ المصريين
Fatima married an Egyptian.

In this sentence بعض is obviously singular.


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## zj73

Sarah Bundogji said:


> You can usually tell from context whether it's singular or plural, right?


Not always. Look at قال بعض العلماء and ذهب بعض الحنابلة إلى حرمته.


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## Ali Smith

بعض can be singular or plural, so it is safer to use أحد when you want to say "one of". For example, قال أحد الطلبة is unambiguous, while قال بعض الطلبة is ambiguous, for it could mean "One of the students said..." or "Some of the students said..."


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## Abbe

My experience is that in older books قال بعض العلماء or قال بعضهم always refer to one person. Please share if you have an example when it's used to refer to a group.


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## Ali Smith

Abbe said:


> My experience is that in older books قال بعض العلماء or قال بعضهم always refer to one person. Please share if you have an example when it's used to refer to a group.


Here's an example:

وَلَا طَعَامٌ إِلَّا مِنْ غِسْلِينٍ (36) لَّا يَأْكُلُهُ إِلَّا الْخَاطِئُونَ (37) فَلَا أُقْسِمُ بِمَا تُبْصِرُونَ (38) وَمَا لَا تُبْصِرُونَ (39) إِنَّهُ لَقَوْلُ رَسُولٍ كَرِيمٍ (40) وَمَا هُوَ بِقَوْلِ شَاعِرٍ ۚ قَلِيلًا مَّا تُؤْمِنُونَ (41) وَلَا بِقَوْلِ كَاهِنٍ ۚ قَلِيلًا مَّا تَذَكَّرُونَ (42) تَنزِيلٌ مِّن رَّبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ (43) وَلَوْ تَقَوَّلَ عَلَيْنَا بَعْضَ الْأَقَاوِيلِ (44) لَأَخَذْنَا مِنْهُ بِالْيَمِينِ (45) ثُمَّ لَقَطَعْنَا مِنْهُ الْوَتِينَ (46) فَمَا مِنكُم مِّنْ أَحَدٍ عَنْهُ حَاجِزِينَ (47) وَإِنَّهُ لَتَذْكِرَةٌ لِّلْمُتَّقِينَ (48) وَإِنَّا لَنَعْلَمُ أَنَّ مِنكُم مُّكَذِّبِينَ (49) وَإِنَّهُ لَحَسْرَةٌ عَلَى الْكَافِرِينَ (50) وَإِنَّهُ لَحَقُّ الْيَقِينِ (51) فَسَبِّحْ بِاسْمِ رَبِّكَ الْعَظِيمِ (52)
المعارج Al-Ma'aarij
سَأَلَ سَائِلٌ بِعَذَابٍ وَاقِعٍ (1) لِّلْكَافِرِينَ لَيْسَ لَهُ دَافِعٌ (2) مِّنَ اللَّهِ ذِي الْمَعَارِجِ (3) تَعْرُجُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ وَالرُّوحُ إِلَيْهِ فِي يَوْمٍ كَانَ مِقْدَارُهُ خَمْسِينَ أَلْفَ سَنَةٍ (4) فَاصْبِرْ صَبْرًا جَمِيلًا (5) إِنَّهُمْ يَرَوْنَهُ بَعِيدًا (6) وَنَرَاهُ قَرِيبًا (7) يَوْمَ تَكُونُ السَّمَاءُ كَالْمُهْلِ (8) وَتَكُونُ الْجِبَالُ كَالْعِهْنِ (9) وَلَا يَسْأَلُ حَمِيمٌ حَمِيمًا (10)

وَلَوْ تَقَوَّلَ عَلَيْنَا بَعْضَ الْأَقَاوِيلِ لَأَخَذْنَا مِنْهُ بِالْيَمِينِ
And had he fabricated against us some sayings we would have seized him by the right hand.


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## Abbe

I don't dispute that بعض can mean some in some contexts, or even generally. I thought that the discussion was about قال بعض العلماء and similar expressions.


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## Sadda7

Abbe said:


> *always *refer to one person


I don't think that is easy to verify, is there something written on it?

I found this but it is specific to the Shafi'i scholars of fiqh [1] [2]:


> إذا قالوا: قال *بعض العلماء* فهذا دلالة على نقلهم عن* العالم الحي* فإنهم لا يذكرون اسمه، لأنه ربما تراجع عن رأيه، «فإنهم إذا نقلوا عن العالم الحي فلا يصرحون باسمه، لأنه ربما رجع عن قوله، وإنما يقال: قال بعض العلماء ونحوه فإن مات صرحوا باسمه»





Abbe said:


> Please share if you have an example when it's used to refer to a group.


If I'm not wrong some Tafsir scholars would say قال بعض العلماء referring to an opinion that is said by more than one person. Can't think of a specific example right now, I'll quote it if I find one.


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## Abbe

I agree that it's not easy to verify, but as I mentioned that is my personal experience. You'll find a lot of examples where they say:
قال بعض العلماء followed by a verb with with a subject in the mufrad for exampel: قال بعض العلماء خرجت يوما 
And in the hashiya of books of fiqh you often find that they mention the name of the person. For example قال بعض العلماء and then in the hashiya it says وهو العالم الفلاني


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## Sadda7

Abbe said:


> You'll find a lot of examples where they say:
> قال بعض العلماء followed by a verb with with a subject in the mufrad


Indeed, I've seen this many times in books of Adab. But these examples wouldn't be enough to produce a conclusive answer.


Abbe said:


> Please share if you have an example when it's used to refer to a group.


Here is an example from a Tafsir book, it's from تفسير الثعلبي:
"{وَلَا تَقْرَبَا هَذِهِ الشَّجَرَةَ} قال ‌*بعض ‌العلماء*: وقع النهي علي جنس من الشجر. *‌وقال ‌آخرون*: وقع النهي علي شجرةٍ مخصوصة."
Both of the opinions are held by more than one person. There are many other examples like this in Tafsir books.


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## Abbe

This is not conclusive the meaning might be: One of the scholars said.... while others said...

This opinion might have been mentioned by only one scholar, and then referred to in other works of tafsir. It's not far fetched to assume that one scholar mentioned it, and that his opinion was cited by later scholars. It would then not be their opinion and it would be perfectly fine to use بعض with the meaning "one of". I'm not saying I'm right but I don't think that this is enough.


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## Sadda7

I wasn't presenting a conclusive evidence too as I understand that both meanings are possible, that بعض can refer to one or more than one person, unless the context adds more clarity. I don't agree with restricting its meaning to only one without providing a sufficient evidence.



Abbe said:


> It's not far fetched to assume that one scholar mentioned it, and that his opinion was cited by later scholars.


Of course, and that's generally how the case is, but this shouldn't affect the word. When a scholar is saying قال بعض العلماء he is citing a specific opinion or a saying, it makes no difference if one scholar first formed the opinion, and the others followed him, or if each scholar independently came to the same conclusion.


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## Abbe

I don't think that you understood me correctly. If one scholar says something, and then he is quouted by other scholars, do you think that this opinion belongs to the other scholars as well? They are merely quoting him, and in the next sentence they might quote another opinion that contradicts the first one. They are saying that this is a possible explanation. Now, if i know that Ikrima said something about an aya, and I know that a lot of scholars have quoted him in earlier works, and I say قال بعض العلماء it is not far fetched that I'm referring to Ikrima alone, because the others are just quoting him.


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## Sadda7

I completely understood you Abbe, and I said that that doesn't affect what could بعض العلماء mean.

We have two situations:
(1) More than one scholar (outside of the Tafsir, e.g. grammarians) came to the same conclusion _individually, _their opinions even though are identical, are formed independentally.
(2) One scholar says something first and then other scholars followed or agreed with him.

Saying قال بعض العلماء doesn't refer to one of them exclusively, of course it is not far-fetched that the 2nd one is intended, or the 1st.

I didn't know that when an opinion is mentioned in this way means that the scholar is only referring to the person who formed it first, do you think that if المبرد shares the same opinion as سيبويه and then this opinion is being mentioned in قال بعض العلماء, then only سيبويه is one intended?


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## Abbe

> (1) More than one scholar (outside of the Tafsir, e.g. grammarians) came to the same conclusion _individually, _their opinions even though are identical, are formed independentally.


How do you know that they reached the same conclusion about the meaning of شجرة individually? I'm not saying they didn't I'm just saying that there is a possibility here of mere quoting.



> I didn't know that when an opinion is mentioned in this way means that the scholar is only referring to the person who formed it first, do you think that if المبرد shares the same opinion as سيبويه and then this opinion is being mentioned in قال بعض العلماء, then only سيبويه is one intended?


I'm not claiming that this is the way it's used, I'm just saying that it's a possibillity, and therefore not a celar cut argument for what you are saying, as the scholars say الدليل إذا تطرق إليه الاحتمالات سقط به الاستدلال


You quoted Tha'labi: قال ‌*بعض ‌العلماء*: وقع النهي علي جنس من الشجر. *‌وقال ‌آخرون*: وقع النهي علي شجرةٍ مخصوصة
What is al-Tha'labis opinion? Is it the first, the second, both or is he merely quoting? Unless he adopts one of the opinions and criticize the other it's impossible to know.

Now, we know for sure that قال بعض العلماء is used for one person, and that it's easy to find examples of this in the books. I'm not disputing that it might be used to refer to a group as well, but I havent seen an example that is clear cut yet.


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## Sadda7

Abbe said:


> I'm not claiming that this is the way it's used, I'm just saying that it's a possibillity


And *I never denied the possibility* too, this what I think is misunderstood, I'm not giving exlcusive evidence for either meaning. As you see in my first reply I initially commented after your claim, that it *always* refer to one person, and the evidence was your personal experience.


Abbe said:


> What is al-Tha'labis opinion? Is it the first, the second, both or is he merely quoting?


He is quoting two opinions, then he mentions the _people_ holding each opinion.


Abbe said:


> Unless he adopts one of the opinions and criticize the other it's impossible to know.


Can you elaborate why al-Tha'labi adopting one of the opinions would affect the meaning of "بعض العلماء"? Since both are shared by more than one person.

If بعض العلماء is conventionally used to refer to only one person in other fields, like in Tafsir, Grammar or Aqeedah, then I believe some books would've been written clarifying this like the ones in the Shafi'i fiqh that I linked, if there are then I would like to know them.

To make my position clear again, I'm not denying any of the two possible meanings. بعض العلماء can refer to one scholar or more than one. It can't be restricted to one of them unless there is a clear evidence.


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## Abbe

> He is quoting two opinions, then he mentions the _people_ holding each opinion.


This is what he says:
قال بعض العلماء: وقع النهي على جنس من الشجر. وقال آخرون: بل وقع على شجرة مخصوصة واختلفوا فيها،
فقال علي بن أبي طالب (كرم الله وجهه) :
هي شجرة الكافور.
وقال قتادة: شجرة العلم وفيها من كلّ شيء.
ومحمد بن كعب ومقاتل: هي السنبلة.
وقيل: هي الحبلة وهي الأصلة من أصول الكرم.
أبو روق عن الضحّاك: أنها شجرة التين.​He says قال بعض العلماء and he doesn't mention one person, let alone more than one, holding this opinion (i.e. it could still be just one person). Then he says وقال آخرون and then he goes ahead and mention their names and their opinions. 



> Can you elaborate why al-Tha'labi adopting one of the opinions would affect the meaning of "بعض العلماء"? Since both are shared by more than one person.


This was to show you that a scholar mentioning an opinion doesn't mean he adopted it he is just quoting what other scholars have said. If this is true with regards to al-Tha'alabi it's also true about other scholars. So even if there where other scholars before al-Tha'alabi that quoted this opinion before him it doesn't mean that it was their opinion they might be merely quoting the first one. Hence when we say قال بعض العلماء it really might refer back to the first person, not everyone else who merely quoted him.



> If بعض العلماء is conventionally used to refer to only one person in other fields, like in Tafsir, Grammar or Aqeedah, then I believe some books would've been written clarifying this like the ones in the Shafi'i fiqh that I linked, if there are then I would like to know them.


If I knew about such books this discussion would have ended a few hours ago.

As I mentioned earlier. 

1 We know for sure that it's used for one person. 
2 There is, as far as I know and understand, no clear evidence that it's used for more than one person.
3 And as as I mentioned several times already, I might be totally wrong.


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## Sadda7

Abbe said:


> This was to show you that a scholar mentioning an opinion doesn't mean he adopted it he is just quoting what other scholars have said.





Abbe said:


> not everyone else who merely quoted him.


That's obvious, I didn't say that he adopted it and I wasn't over-particular with which scholars technically owns the opinion or who formed it first. 
And I don't think the scholars quoting saying قال بعض العلماء is referring to *only *the first person and just because people share the same opinion doesn't necessarily mean they must have took it from the one who came first. And just because one scholar is being followed by others doesn't necessarily mean they're not intended in بعض العلماء.



Abbe said:


> 2 There is, as far as I know and understand, no clear evidence that it's used for more than one person.


It is very possible due to a few reasons:

Based on بعض alone, especially when there is no known convention of usage that the scholar is adhering to.
Different ways of quoting like:
‌وقال ‌بعض ‌العلماء منهم فلان وفلان...(لو قصد واحدا فقط ب"بعض" فلم ذكر غيره؟)
وقال بعضهم *وهم* الجمهور...
وقال بعضهم *وهم* الأكثرون من الصحابة...
قال بعضهم *وهم *فلان وفلان وفلان...
بعض العلماء *قالوا*...
وقال بعض العلماء وهو قول *فلان وفلان*...

The scholars are inconsistent in their ways of quoting, and there is no *conclusive *evidence for بعض العلماء = *only* one is being referred to.
Unlcear context.
You first claimed that it *always *refers to one person and that is not proven. Whether it is more likely to mean only one person in specific contexts doesn't matter.


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## Ali Smith

Idris said:


> That is disappointing, because in almost all Classical Arabic books it says قال بعض العلماء for example, then this could either mean "One of the scholars said," or "Some of the scholars said." And we'll not know which.


True, but are they written in Classical Arabic? "Classical Arabic" refers to the Arabic of the Qur'an, hadith, and pre-Islamic poetry. Later scholars might have known Arabic grammar extremely well but they were not native speakers of Classical Arabic, for the spoken language had changed considerably after the spread of Islam.


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## WadiH

“Classical Arabic” is a western concept and even westerners don’t have one agreed definition for it.  Usually, though any “pre-modern” FuSHa is considered “Classical Arabic”.


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