# Issues with untranslated things



## Timothy1987

Hello,

I'm a student of Greek, and I am just wondering why so many names, concepts and the like are left untranslated in, well, basically every Greek text I have ever read? I cannot even begin to count the numerous times *names* of people have been left in their original/English/other form; can you imagine this happening in English or French? It's quite distressing to happen across such a thing for me, especially when I'm trying to learn the language.

Does anybody else take issue with all this untranslated stuff? I feel like it impedes my learning of the language to a degree, and just generally annoys me.


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## shawnee

I'm not sure if you mean something like Τζένι or Jenny. Please give an example. The extent of the phenomenon you describe sounds like a bit of an exaggeration. Are these texts produced in Greece or Australia? It probably all depends on intended audience.


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## Perseas

The preferation for _Jenny_ rather than_ Τζένι_ is one issue; another issue is the preferation for _lockout_ (in this form) rather than its Greek equivalent or even in its transcription in Greek characters: _λοκάουτ_. In texts produced in Greece you may meet both cases, maybe to a lesser extent than in Greek texts produced in other countries. In informal texts this phenomenon is more often than what happens in formal ones. In any case, this fact is indicative of the carelessness for our language.


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## cougr

It is my impression that one major reason as to why foreign names or concepts are sometimes left untranslated is due to the absence of a standardized transliteration system, which on occasions can render any attempt at transliteration particularly vexing and problematic to the translator who may be anxious to avoid possible ambiguities and equivocations which may arise with a  transliterated word as a result of the absence of thorough and uniform guide-lines relating to transliteration.


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## Δημήτρης

> can you imagine this happening in English or French?


No need to imagine a thing  English has a gazillion of opaque loanwords that keep their original spelling (or a direct transliteration of it).

Now, two things:
1. Modern Greek doesn't produce new words anymore. Well, not a significant amount anyway (cf Koiné-Early Modern Greek times). It also neutralizes loanwords less and less. 
2. Native Greek speakers in our times are constantly exposed to the English language, as it is the language of everything new (technology, science, medical, popular culture)
As a result, they are more comfortable with the original spelling of, eg tablet PC, and τάμπλετ looks plain weird (and, ofc, the neutralized ταμπλέτα means something completely different for the general public). 

On a personal note, I am in favor of transliterating loanwords in the simplest way possible. If we keep foreign spelling conventions, we will end up with something as messy as the English spelling. Having said that, I still can't bring myself to write things like γουέμπκαμ.


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## cougr

Here's a case in point which illustrates what I was referring to above. I was once reading an account in Greek of one persons adventures and travails whilst travelling around Australia. There was a place that was mentioned in the story which was transliterated as Κοκκολμπίντδι which I had never previously heard of. I googled it to no avail even after I had experimented with possible spelling variations and I remember that it was only by default and after a very long time that I was able to work out what he was referring to.


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## Timothy1987

Hello everybody,


Thank you all for your replies. From what I can gather, it seems like there is just a general sloth in the application of the language, then. May I ask, how has there not been a concerted effort in developing a proper set of transliteration rules? In English they just keep using classical transliteration, and I find that it's often simple enough to just keep on using that in some cases, essentially 'naturalising' names / sounds to mould to Greek letters. I often find it easier to
distinguish d/δ as opposed to guessing if the d is a messy ντ, and vice-versa (not to mention the aesthetics often look better, but that's another story).

May I ask why next to no new words are coined in Greek? Would it not be an appropriate use of the language to develop new words for the populace to learn and appreciate? For example with 'tablet', why not just use the Greek
word for tablet; I fail to see why it couldn't be given another meaning.

If we are to take the tablet example again, we know that it originally refers to a writing tablet, from stone to wax, etc. In Greek, a wax tablet is "Κηρωμένη πινακίδα", so couldn't a new word be coined, or "πινακίδα" be appropriately used? 

The example of "γουέμπκαμ" is truly horrifying to me. Why not just create a new Greek word much like was done in English?

It's almost as if there is a fear or apprehension in properly using and developing the language, instead opting just to leave foreign words as they are out of sloth. Do forgive me if that sounds a bit harsh but that is what I seem to be observing at the moment.

Oh, if transliteration can become vexing, why not have a page at the back of the book / manual or whatever that is a translation page? That would surely alleviate some issues and leave the rest of the text more in sync.


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## Eltheza

Hi Timothy!

Why are you so angry with Greek? English has been doing this (i.e. being 'slothful', in your rather odd idiolect) for centuries! We sit on the *patio* and have a *tête-à-tête* over a bottle of *rioja*. If the *à la carte* menu isn't available at the local *bistro*, then we'll just have to go for a *pizza*, some *chop suey* or a *hamburger*!

Capisce?

What sort of texts are you reading? Somewhere you might read, "Πήγα σ'ένα fast food/φαστ φουντ", whereas elsewhere you could find, "Πήγα σ'ένα ταχυφαγητό". 

I've been looking at a website about ECDL qualifications in Greece, and no, I didn't come across 'Τα Word Processing, Spreadsheets, Databases και Presentations'; instead I found *'Επεξεργασία Κειμένου, Υπολογιστικά Φύλλα, Βάσεις Δεδομένων και Παρουσιάσεις'*!

All is not lost!


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## cougr

Timothy1987 said:


> Hello everybody,
> 
> May I ask why next to no new words are coined in Greek? Would it not be an appropriate use of the language to develop new words for the populace to learn and appreciate? For example with 'tablet', why not just use the Greek
> word for tablet; I fail to see why it couldn't be given another meaning.
> 
> If we are to take the tablet example again, we know that it originally refers to a writing tablet, from stone to wax, etc. In Greek, a wax tablet is "Κηρωμένη πινακίδα", so couldn't a new word be coined, or "πινακίδα" be appropriately used?
> 
> The example of "γουέμπκαμ" is truly horrifying to me. Why not just create a new Greek word much like was done in English?


Hello Timothy,

 I'm pretty sure that the majority if not all "recent" foreign loan words used by Greeks have corresponding Greek translations which have been specifically coined or developed, however, at the end of the day and in the main, it's the populace that decides how a language evolves. So for example if the general populace decides that a word like "γουέμπκαμ" for what ever reason is preferable or convenient to use compared to it's Greek equivalent, it will ultimately become part of the language, irrespective of the sensitivities that some may have in regard to the supposed horror it evokes.


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## shawnee

I would love to continue to participate in this discourse but am at a disadvantage due to my ignorance of Κοκκολμπίντδι, and what in the blazes is "γουέμπκαμ"?


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## Eltheza

Hi shawnee!

The second one is 'webcam'! The first one...


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## cougr

shawnee said:


> I would love to continue to participate in this discourse but am at a disadvantage due to my ignorance of Κοκκολμπίντδι......



G'day shawnee,

I had intentionally left it untranslated in order to make a point as to the vagaries of transliteration (and I'm glad I'm not the only one that was stumped by what it could be :d). It stands for Cocklebiddy, one of of those brief stop-over settlements along the Nullarbor Plain.


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## shawnee

Thanks Eltheza: 'webcam'!! Po, po, po. Where is the emoticon which bangs its head on the floor when you need it? Thanks Cougr: Ha! Of course the next question is what where the alternatives? 
My experience with Greek reading has cenrtred on historical texts, where I've not encountered such linguistic peculiarities to a remarkable extent.


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## alfie1888

Speaking to a friend of mine recently, it seems that the younger generation do not like to transliterate anything, really. It just looks so strange to them. I am of the same opinion as you: Why not coin new words instead? Though, having said that, whilst I was doing my Modern Greek A Level my teacher made full use of my good translation skills and used to make worksheets for me about anything she felt ambiguous about in English and it would turn out that there was, more often than not, no Greek equivalent and the English word was borrowed... un-transliterated! It would work out really well because it would often be the same things I was uneasy about when talking to my friends. It just so happened that once it was about Information Technology. 

I have come across many Greek equivalents for names of new technologies. I have definitely seen _κάμερα διαδικτύου_ instead of _γου*έ*πκαμ_! I usually will just write any given loan word such as webcam in Greek as 'webcam' because I just can't stand it when (and this is another side to the transliteration problem!) Greeks MISPLACE the accent. I'm sure I've seen _γουεπκ*ά*μ _as well. *cringe* 

For example, as mentioned above: λουκ*ά*ουτ = lookout. The stress falls on the OO and should be "λ*ού*καουτ" but the Greeks don't seem to _hear _the stress properly in English. I had it before, also, with the word "h*a*ngover". My friend at the time told me it was _χανγκ*ό*βερ _after I had written _χ*ά*νγκοβερ_. He wouldn't have it when I told him that the stress was in the wrong place! What he wrote sounds to me (as a native English speaker) like "hung*o*ver" as in: "I was hung*o*ver yesterday", as we say. It's funny, that, really. "I have a h*a*ngover" but "I was hung*o*ver on Saturday." 

Does anyone else find it annoying about the stress? I'm in no way having a go at the Greeks - but _they _had a go at _me _and told _me _that _I_ was _wrong_! How messed up is _that_?! I know you can get screwed up loan word usages set in stone eventually over time, such as French for a _commemorative pin _being translated as "un pin's". "Un pin's"! With an apostrophe and an s!? It's crazy!

OK, I'm done. And I think I overused the italics button. Anyone got any more examples in Greek where they've stressed the wrong syllable? I can't think of any more now.


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## Eltheza

Hi alfie!

That's a really interesting post! I was an English teacher in Athens for quite a long time and I know exactly what you mean. I shall try and think of some other examples...

This is slightly different, but 'gay' has been adopted into Greek in the transliterated form '_γκει'_. I have gay friends who hate it because it looks so ugly in Greek letters. 'Gay' is a beautiful word for lots of reasons but _not_ when written like that! 

The most annoying thing is that it tends to be pronounced 'gee'! _Ghee_ is clarified butter used in Indian cooking; this mispronunciation of _gay_ used to irritate me no end!


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## Eltheza

Υ.Γ.

I've just thought of two examples: _*τρακτέρ *_and *κοκτείλ*, both stressed on the second syllable, as opposed to tractor and cocktail!


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## alfie1888

Hi Eltheza, 

I'm glad you understand what I'm on about! That's a good point about the word "gay"... Personally, if I ever use it in Greek in writing I tend to write γκει simply because if there's someone looking over my shoulder I don't particularly want to out myself haha. Also, I find it such a drag to switch between keyboards just for the one word. But yes, it does look ugly in Greek. 

In response to τρακτέρ and κοκτέιλ, I think the first is taken from the French "tracteur" - in which case the stress is correct. One must remember that before the educated learnt English in Greece, they learnt French (I think it was before the 60s?). But κοκτέιλ grates on me, too. I guess they'd have to write κόκτεϊλ (...which I've just googled and it does come up for things like "cocktail party" and "prawn cocktail") - so at least there's a redeeming point there. I'm going to try and think of some more examples now. 

Once again, glad there's someone out there who can relate to this pet peeve!


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## Eltheza

Hi alfie!

Good point about the _French Connection_! French is what I did my degree in, so I should have thought of that! I can most certainly relate to your pet peeve! 

Yes, κοκτειλ came up for me in various forms too, but all my Greek friends would stress it on the second syllable.

Mind you, *we've* done a number on _hundreds_ of Greek words, haven't we? This one springs to mind: ἄβυσσος, but we say 'abyss'. I don't suppose there's anything wrong with making foreign loan words conform to some native rules, even though the word remains untranslated.

Glad you've got involved here! I hope you enjoy this forum and stick around!


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## alfie1888

Yes, you're right, we have! I've even done Classical Greek and came across loads and loads. Ever heard anyone from Oxford University read Classical Greek aloud? Dreadful! Just dreadful! Painful, even, to anyone who knows the Modern language! But that's another discussion for another time...

I shall enjoy this forum and will stick around. It's very useful for my studies (I'm doing French and Italian at University, in my first year). Wish I could have kept up my Greek... but in all fairness I'm done with that now (10 years of lessons, speaking it with my beloved γιαγιά all throughout my teen years). The Italians have done the same when borrowing Greek words. The one that gets me recently is "idea": they stress the "i". 

Anyway, have a nice day and thank you for talking to me about this!


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## Eltheza

Με μεγάλη ευχαρίστηση!

Alfie - I've sent you a PM (Private Message) about other Greek language resources!

This site's rather good - found it recently when investigating 'Middle Voice':

http://www.foundalis.com/lan/greek.htm

(I did French and Italian too!)


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## Δημήτρης

Regarding the whole accent upon the wrong syllable thing, please keep in mind that English words, unlike Greek, have a secondary stress. Eg, cocktail is transcribed as /ˈkɒkˌteɪl/ in the International Phonetic Alphabet. The comma above is the primary stress, and the comma below is the secondary stress, which Greeks tend to notice more easily. More so when they have to deal with words with more that 3 syllables, like supermarket. Greek phonology does not allow the stress to fall further back than the penultimate, so they will either say σουπερμ*ά*ρκετ, or break it to two words with individual stress (I believe that option has a more Cypriot sound to it).

Now, tablet. We got ταμπλέτα from French tablette but to us it means a tablet of some medication. The ISO-approved Greek word for tablet, πινακίδα, means "a signpost" in Modern Greek. Surely it doesn't makes lot of sense to us to call the Samsung Galaxy Tab (which is a very sexy gadget and I wouldn't mind receiving it as a birthday present this March *hinthint* ) a signpost. So, it's tablet for now. Hopefully we will eventually accept the transliterated form τέιμπλετ (or τάμπλετ, I believe it's more commonly pronounced that way). We could also create a new word like,I dunno, επίπεδος υπολογιστής; Ηλεκτρονικό πλακίδιο; But let's be realists, there is no way for a two word term to beat a two-syllable word. No way.

Γκέι is okay. I hate with passion those who spell it γκέϋ, with an upsilon and a gratuitous tréma. Also, I propose the neutralized form "γκέης", conjugated as ο γκέης, του γκέη, οι γκέηδες.
Only slightly related: I prefer identifying as κουίαρ, I think it looks better than κουίρ. What dya say?


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## alfie1888

Eltheza,

I will be replying to that message in a bit. Thank you.

Ah, foundalis! I know the site well! I've e-mailed him a couple of times asking him stuff before I knew about this forum. Clever guy!

(Don't you find they both help you with your Greek and vice versa? )


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## alfie1888

Δημήτρης,

You're right. And I do keep it in mind. It's just that as a linguist I rather like to keep the purity of my words, as it were. Yes, I am the guy who can't say a foreign word or name without putting on the accent! I am even the guy in the restaurant ordering the Italian dish con un accento italiano! Haha!

I've got to say, I've never heard anyone pronounce "tablet" as τέιμπλετ. Sounds like someone misread the English there and got it mixed up with the word "table". 

You're also most definitely right about the two-syllable word never losing to a two-word term. Though I really liked your suggestions! I am indeed very much a lover of Greek words.

Now, γκέϋ IS awful. Furthermore, you don't need the diaereses when the acute on the epsilon has ALREADY split up the digraph (I make it a point to remember that there are no longer "diphthongs" in Modern Greek, only in Classical and Ancient - well, so they say: no one was there to record them speaking!).

Γκέης is really cute! I think I might start using that! Γκέηδες is great, haha! I think κουίρ is better, personally. But just because it's closer to the original English pronunciation whereas κουίαρ sounds like English with a very thick Greek accent. Unless you have a very thick Cypriot accent when speaking English? Hehe.


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## Perseas

> Now, γκέϋ IS awful. Furthermore, you don't need the diaereses when the  acute on the epsilon has ALREADY split up the digraph (I make it a point  to remember that there are no longer "diphthongs" in Modern Greek


That's true, so we write σπρέυ or σπρέι (spray). In older texts you could also see Τζαίημς (James) but now we tend to simplify things by transcribing all i sounds to ι (γιώτα) and all e sounds to ε (έψιλον).So James becomes rather Τζέιμς.


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