# 見立て



## YeatsK

Hi, I was wondering if had the definition of 見立て correct here.

"それにしても蚊取り線香販売人といふ見立てにはわれながら恐縮して、どうかと思つたことだつた."

"However, I was, I humbly admit, doubtful as to my ability to impersonate a mosquito repellent salesman."

It's from an essay by Yasujiro Ozu. He's writing about a time when he got mixed up with a bunch of mosquito repellent salesmen.

I don't think I'm dealing with ”見て選び定めるの「見立て」", right? It has to do with 芸術, I think.

Thanks!


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## frequency

YeatsK said:


> 見て選び定めるの「見立て」


That's fine, or it'd be consideration/estimation. Weblio says "opinion", but it'd be okay, too.

We have 蚊取り線香, incense that kills mosquitoes.

This is as cheap and ordinary item as you can find everywhere: so the word "蚊取り線香 salesman" makes us imagine someone unproductive and inefficient. We don't need such a salesman－so this word sounds even a bit derogatory if the speaker intends so.

But he dares to use this word when he regards, estimates the man as a 蚊取り線香 salesman. Next, in われながら恐縮して、どうかと思つた, I see some his surprise(?) and sorriness for his own consideration and estimation.

Did Ozu really feel sorry? I'm not sure yet, so I need more context to find out


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## Flaminius

This _mitate_ is recognition.  The excursion organiser mistakenly recognised Ozu for a mosquito repellant salesman.

Your quote was too short to sort out which of a few meanings of _mitate_ is used here.  Please include a few sentences (up to four sentences) to establish the context of your enquiry.

小津安二郎「車中も亦愉し」
http://www.aozora.gr.jp/cards/001761/files/55950_51987.html


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## YeatsK

Hi frequency, Flaminus,

thank you for your comments, and sorry for not adding enough context. I'll fill you in a bit more:
1. いつか、×××印蚊取り線香小売販売人御招待といふ団体のなかにまぎれこんだことがあつた. (I (Ozu) once got myself mixed up with this lot of retail merchants promoting 'something-or-other' mosquito repellent)
2.Someone in charge suddenly comes up to Ozu and... その中に割り込んだ僕を同行と間違へたものらしい (He apparently mistook me for one of his own)
3. Then we come to the line with 見立て：　”それにしても蚊取り線香販売人といふ見立てにはわれながら恐縮して、どうかと思つたことだつた”

In short, Ozu is on the train and he gets mistaken for a mosquito repellent (incense) salesman. 
Would it be possible if either of you could rephrase in Japanese what is being said here in the 見立て sentence? 
If we take 見立て to be a sort of judgement, would the sentence translate to "And yet I must admit that I was doubtful about his thinking that I was a mosquito repellent salesman"?

Thanks!
P.S. Thanks for the background to the 蚊取り線香, frequency. I didn't realize it had that kind of connotation attached to it.


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## karlalou

YeatsK said:


> "それにしても蚊取り線香販売人といふ見立てにはわれながら恐縮して、どうかと思つたことだつた."
> 
> "However, I was, I humbly admit, doubtful as to my ability to impersonate a mosquito repellent salesman."





YeatsK said:


> I don't think I'm dealing with ”見て選び定めるの「見立て」", right? It has to do with 芸術, I think.


I think this 見立て is also "見て選び定める", yes, it's 'judgement',  but I think your interpretation is expressing exactly what he is trying to say. Just the way he describes how unexpected the incident was to him is telling that he was sure he looked very different from them. That is shown by not only 見立て but, I think, the whole phrase, 見立てにはわれながら恐縮して、どうかと思ったことだった is saying so.


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## Flaminius

frequency said:


> the word "蚊取り線香 salesman" makes us imagine someone unproductive and inefficient. We don't need such a salesman－so this word sounds even a bit derogatory if the speaker intends so.


No and no for both sentences.  Look, Ozu published this essay in 1937.  Such were the unproductiveness and inefficiency of the overall Japanese economy, if not that of the world, that peddlers like them were everywhere.  At least they were carrying a new type of goods and the successful ones had the leeway to take part in an organised trip.

Paraphrase:
それにしても蚊取り線香販売人*と思われたこと*にはわれながら恐縮して、どうかと思つたことだつた。

The sentence is too terse to confidently say what 恐縮 means but to my mind it loosely refers to the undeserved drink he got.  どうかと思った too is ambiguous; it may be wonderment at how this happened or a pang of conscience.

と言つて僕は菊石(あばた)ではない。
This is even more difficult.  How can pockmarks make someone pass for a mosquito repellent salesman?  Was someone with pockmarks starred in a m.r. advert?  I don't know.


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## YeatsK

Hi Flaminius,
Thanks for the paraphrase and for giving your own take on the situation. I can see how 恐縮 and どうか leave quite a bit of room for interpretation.
Taking into account what you have said, how does this read to you: "At any rate, I was both grateful and shocked at his mistaking me for a mosquito repellent salesman."
Doesn't どうかと思う carry a connotation of something not being normal (普通でないさま）? But perhaps "shocked" is too strong...

As for the next line, I will have to ask around about that one. Perhaps  you're right and he was referring to a person with pockmarks. Perhaps it was slang.
Edit: Perhaps he's implying that people who frequently use mosquito repellent incense might get pockmarks or similar marks on their skin.


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## frequency

Flaminius said:


> Look, Ozu published this essay in 1937.  Such were the unproductiveness and inefficiency of the overall Japanese economy, if not that of the world, that peddlers like them were everywhere.  At least they were carrying a new type of goods and the successful ones had the leeway to take part in an organised trip.



I thought 蚊取り線香 has already spread well before 1937. I guess that you mean that around 1937 it was a new, promising product. Therefore, they had


YeatsK said:


> ×××印蚊取り線香小売販売人御招待といふ団体


and its organised trip. Am I right?



> その中に割り込んだ僕を同行と間違へたものらしい (He apparently mistook me for one of his own)
> それにしても蚊取り線香販売人といふ見立てにはわれながら恐縮して、どうかと思つたことだつた



Then the man regarded as 蚊取り線香 salesman was Ozu. Okay, people/someone considered and regarded him as a 蚊取り線香 salesman, and he says 恐縮して、どうかと思つたことだつた。


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## frequency

YeatsK,
蚊取り線香
1888年（明治21年） 上山により粉末状の蚊取線香が作られる。
1890年（明治23年） 棒状の蚊取線香が作られる。
1895年（明治28年） 渦巻き型の蚊取線香が作られる。
1955年（昭和30年）頃 合成ピレスロイドの実用化が始まる。

We've got vortex-shape 蚊取り線香 since 1895! We are not 100% sure around 1937 how 蚊取り線香 and salesmen were, _IF_ I assume it used to be a normal product, and people at least had the organization to promote it, as Flam said.

Then how did Ozu, a successful film director, feel when he was mistakenly regarded as a salesman who sells a usual commodity item?

The use of 恐縮する by him here, as you said "I was grateful", he appreciates their 見立て. I see some his gentleman-like personality.

We say どうかと思う, we're in 2016 though, if you say to me:
"I'm going to cook for you fish from the nearby sewer."
"Oh, come on－それはどうかと思うよ。" I'm implying it's difficult for me to support your idea.
どうかと思う isn't that strong denial and avoids straightforwardness: it's hard to believe you regard me as a 蚊取り線香 salesman.

So I agree with you on


YeatsK said:


> "At any rate, I was both grateful and shocked at his mistaking me for a mosquito repellent salesman."
> Doesn't どうかと思う carry a connotation of something not being normal (普通でないさま）? But perhaps "shocked" is too strong...



Is "shocked" too strong? That's fine, in my opinion. I forgot to say you're welcome


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## YeatsK

Wow! Thank you so much for looking into this, frequency!
I especially appreciate your explanation of  どうかと思う : D


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## Flaminius

Frequency, to my surprise the green vortex comes down to us a long way.  Thanks for the time line.

In the meantime, I keep looking for the connection between pockmarks and mosquito repellants.


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## SoLaTiDoberman

My interpretation/translation would be:
この『蚊取り線香』というものはたいした効果もない、蚊も歓迎するようなイカサマ商品のようである。それなのに『蚊取り線香販売人』というイカサマ商売（下賤な職業）に間違われたことに自分でも大変光栄なことと（sarcastic）思い、どうだろうか、そのような下賤な人相に見えるのだろうかと思ったことだった。と言っても、僕はあばた面ではなく、自分では下賤な人相ではないつもりなのだが。（筆者にはこの当時の時代背景をうけ、行商人よりも作家の方が偉い、というプライドがあったとの解釈。） 
(edit:作家ではなく映画監督でしたか。）


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## YeatsK

SoLaTiDoberman, thanks for your interpretation. You've really helped to fill in the ellipses  in these sentences.
Yeah, I'm leaning towards the interpretation that 僕はあばたではない is a offhand remark about class. Ozu's films have always had very visual markers of class, after all.


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