# Wenn ich den Film kaufte, weinte ich viel / würde ich viel weinen (Konjunktiv, Schriftsprache)



## Mozzerfan99

Hallo,

I am wondering about the use of the subjunctive in written German (I am thinking in particular of university level essays and fiction). Now I understand that usage will vary from person to person, but I am trying to work out a rough set of guidelines of which form of the subjunctive to use as a starting point, in order to write German that sounds reasonably normal.

1. So I understand it is fairly common to see the Präterium form of Konjunktiv II with the following verbs - finden, geben gehen, halten, heißen, kommen, lassen, stehen, wissen and tun. 

My grammar book says that with those verbs the Präterium form (fände) is seen about as often as the Future I form (würde finden). So first off, is this true? And secondly, is there any logic to when they are used and when not? For example, would Präterium form be used more often in the wenn-clause? Is it just entirely random? And so as someone who wants to write reasonable German (and happens to have a mild dislike of compound tenses), could anybody please suggest a system/guideline as to when to use these verbs in the simple form, and when to use them in the würde form?

I have seen a lot of information online about what is correct, but nothing that actually suggests a typical system. I understand that as I read more German I will start to pick it up a bit, but ideally I would like a starting point.

2. I believe the modal verbs are generally used in the Präterium form (könnte etc) - does this also apply to wollen? Because the Konjunktiv II Präterium form is indistinguishable from the indicative one. So which form is generally used in written and spoken German? 

Does it make a difference whether it is in the wenn-clause or the other clause in a typical conditional sentence? Or whether it is being used as an auxiliary verb or being used without another verb?

3. I believe it is the case that the Präterium Konjunktiv II form is used with weak verbs only if it is clear that the sentence is subjunctive. So for example:


> Wenn ich den Film kaufte, weinte ich viel


My intention for the sentence would be 'If I bought the film, I would cry a lot'. But since both forms are indistinguishable from the indicative, the meaning is not clear. So in written German, what would be the most common solution? I believe the Präterium more often goes in the wenn-clause, and the würde-form in the other clause, so my suggestion would be:


> Wenn ich den Film kaufte, würde ich viel weinen


Would that be a typical solution in written German? 
I assume in spoken German, the würde form would simply be used in both clauses.

Danke im Voraus  😀


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## Frank78

_If I bought the film, I would cry a lot_

Since this is irrealis it can't be "Wenn ich den Film kaufte, weinte ich viel" but must be "Wenn ich den Film gekauft *hätte*, hätte ich viel geweint".        

Konjunktiv II in the past is always "sein/haben" + Partizip II

"*Wäre* ich mit dem Bus *gefahren*, *hätte* ich mich nicht *verspätet*"

Simple Past indicative would be: 
"*Als* ich den Film *kaufte*,..."


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## Mozzerfan99

Frank78 said:


> _If I bought the film, I would cry a lot_
> 
> Since this is irrealis it can't be "Wenn ich den Film kaufte, weinte ich viel" but must be "Wenn ich den Film gekauft *hätte*, hätte ich viel geweint".
> 
> Konjunktiv II in the past is always "sein/haben" + Partizip II
> 
> "*Wäre* ich mit dem Bus *gefahren*, *hätte* ich mich nicht *verspätet*"
> 
> Simple Past indicative would be:
> "*Als* ich den Film *kaufte*,..."


But would your version not translate into English as 'If I _had_ bought the film, I would _have_ cried a lot'?


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## Frank78

Mozzerfan99 said:


> But would your version not translate into English as 'If I _had_ bought the film, I would _have_ cried a lot'?



I think I made a little mistake.

Irrealis is indeed "If I had bought..." which is KII in the past (Sein/haben + Partizip II)

For unlikely events (If I bought the film...) I'd use the present of the KII "Wenn ich den Film kaufte, würde ich viel weinen" - This sounds quite stilted though, so "würde...würde" is indeed way more common even in writing.

Again there's no confusing with indicative past because of 
1.) the fact that _wenn_ is only used for present and future and _als_ for past 
2.) _Als _means that two things happened at the same time "Als ich den Film kaufte, weinte ich viel" (When I was buying the film, I cried a lot) which doesn't make much sense.


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## JClaudeK

Frank78 said:


> so "würde...würde" is indeed way more common even in writing.



"ich kaufte"  _KII_ ist identisch mit "ich kaufte" _Präteritum. _Das ist bei allen schwachen Verben der Fall.
In diesem Fall  benutzt man  im Allgemeinen die Ersatzform mit "würde".

Siehe *hier*


> 2. Die Formen des Konjunktivs II, die mit dem Indikativ des Präteritums identisch sind, werden durch die Konjunktiv-II-Form mit _würde_ ersetzt.
> Beispiel: _fragen_
> Präsens: ich frage
> Konjunktiv 1: ich frage (=Präsens)
> Präteritum: ich fragte
> Konjunktiv 2; ich fragte (=Präteritum)
> Konjunktiv 2 mit würde: *ich würde fragen*


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## Hutschi

Wenn ich den Film kaufte, würde ich viel weinen.

This is correct because "kaufte" is Konjunktiv 2 in this sentence. It cannot be indicative because of "wenn".
However: you can use the "würde" form. It is recommended in cases when it is not clear whether it is Konjunktiv or indicative.

I used the German word Konjunktiv because Konjunktiv and subjunctiv can have different meaning depending on context.


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## Hutschi

JClaudeK said:


> "ich kaufte" _KII_ ist identisch mit "ich kaufte" _Präteritum. _Das ist bei allen schwachen Verben der Fall.
> In diesem Fall benutzt man im Allgemeinen die Ersatzform mit "würde


I agree, however in case of "Wenn ich den Film kaufte, würde ich ..." it is always Konjunktiv 2 - so it is a special case.
You can use "kaufte" an "kaufen würde".
Edit:
It is a better style in written texts if you do not repeat "würde" too often. So it is good to have the "kaufte" form.
I added this last part about written style, crossposting with Claude.


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## JClaudeK

Hutschi said:


> It cannot be indicative because of "wenn".


 That's true.

In written language, "Wenn ich den Film kaufte, würde ich viel weinen." is ok, but as said in #4, in spoken language, it sounds _stilted_.

Cross-posted


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## bearded

Mozzerfan99 said:


> I am wondering about the use of the subjunctive in written German (I am thinking in particular of university level essays and fiction)


The use of subjunctive in German is not limited to conditional clauses - such as those you have concentrated your attention on.  In reported speech the subjunctive mood is largely used, too: but that would be a new chapter, of course.


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## Hutschi

What is the difference between subjunctive and Konjunktiv 2? I have always difficulties with this. Is it exactly the same in our context?


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## Frank78

Hutschi said:


> What is the difference between subjunctive and Konjunktiv 2? I have always difficulties with this. Is it exactly the same in our context?



Subjuntive is KI + KII. 

In English they are called conditional clauses (Bedingungssätze)

A real subjuntive in English is always formed with the infinite:

"God *save* the king" - "Gott *schütze* den König" (and not "saves" or "schützt")
"It's important that you *be* on time" (I've never heard such a thing in practice though  )


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## bearded

Frank78 said:


> Subjuntive is KI + KII.
> In English they are called conditional clauses (Bedingungssätze)
> 
> A real subjuntive in English is always formed with the infinite:
> "God *save* the king" - "Gott *schütze* den König" (and not "saves" or "schützt")
> "It's important that you *be* on time"


Sorry, Frank, I must partly disagree:
1. Subjunctive and conditional clauses is not the same. The subjunctive mood is used also in non-conditional clauses, as the examples, which you yourself provided, clearly show.
2. a subjunctive form like ''were'' has nothing to do with the infinitive.


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## Frank78

bearded said:


> Sorry, Frank, I must partly disagree:
> 1. Subjunctive and conditional clauses is not the same. The subjunctive mood is used also in non-conditional clauses, as the examples, which you yourself provided, clearly show.



That's what I said (a real subjuctive). 



bearded said:


> 2. a subjunctive form like ''were'' has nothing to do with the infinitive.



"If I were you" is still a conditional clause not a subjuctive, i.e. the condition is "me" in "your place".


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## bearded

It seems we have different ideas about the meaning of some grammar terms... For me, a mood and a clause are two different things.  Besides, according to English grammarians, in the sentence ''if I were you'' (irrealis), the word ''were'' is a subjunctive - corresponding to German KII wäre.


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## JClaudeK

bearded said:


> For me, a mood and a clause are two different things.


 
See Wikipedia


> *Subjunctive mood*
> The subjunctive is a grammatical mood, a feature of the utterance that indicates the speaker's attitude towards it. Subjunctive forms of verbs are typically used to express various states of unreality such as: wish, emotion, possibility, judgment, opinion, obligation, or action that has not yet occurred; the precise situations in which they are used vary from language to language. The subjunctive is one of the irrealis moods, which refer to what is not necessarily real.


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## Hutschi

bearded said:


> Besides, according to English grammarians, in the sentence ''if I were you'' (irrealis), the word ''were'' is a subjunctive - corresponding to German KII wäre.


I learned this in English lessons, too.
In German:
I see two possibilities in written language
Wenn ich du wäre, ... default
Wäre ich du, ... elevated style

Additionally: (mostly in spoken language)
Wenn ich du sein würde, ...
This sounds clumsy but is possible. Too many words for the short form. But it allows to emphasize it.
Maybe it can be used in spoken language.


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## Frank78

bearded said:


> It seems we have different ideas about the meaning of some grammar terms... For me, a mood and a clause are two different things.  Besides, according to English grammarians, in the sentence ''if I were you'' (irrealis), the word ''were'' is a subjunctive - corresponding to German KII wäre.



It seems the "were" sentences are indeed considered subjunctive. But that only applies to past subjunctive and the verb "be".

Subjunctive | Grammar | EnglishClub


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## Hutschi

JClaudeK said:


> See Wikipedia


This means that subjunctive is not used to indicate indirect speech, is it?


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## Hutschi

I just found another application of Konjunktiv 2: Höflichkeitsform. Polite form.

Examples:


> Ich würde gern morgen kommen. Würde Ihnen das passen?
> ...
> Ich hätte gern drei Semmeln.



I am not sure if this is subjunctive.

It is possible in spoken and in written German, depending on context.


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## Hutschi

Mozzerfan99 said:


> My grammar book says that with those verbs the Präterium form (fände) is seen about as often as the Future I form (würde finden).


Konjunktiv II- Zukunft - Modus einfach erklärt | LAKschool

Konjunktiv II- Bildung - Modus einfach erklärt | LAKschool

The form with "würde" is used for futur1, and in coll. language for present tense, too.
See also sources.



> In der Umgangssprache bevorzugen wir allerdings auch für viele starke Verben die würde-Form (würde + Infinitiv).


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## anahiseri

Frank78 said:


> A real subjuntive in English is always formed with the infinite:
> 
> "God *save* the king" - "Gott *schütze* den König" (and not "saves" or "schützt")
> "It's important that you *be* on time" (I've never heard such a thing in practice though  )


Frank, I think you're confused about the grammaical verb forms and names. The fact that "save" in "God save the King" looks like the infinitive (is formed identically) doesn't mean it is an infinitive. You might as well say that in "we work here" "work" is an infinitive because it has no "s" either. The problem with using this subjunctive (present subjunctive, I think . . . .- can somebody confirm?) is that it only differs from the indicative in the 3rd person singular and all persons of the verb "be".I agree with you, though, in that these forms are rarely heard (and very seldom read).


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## Mozzerfan99

Hutschi said:


> Konjunktiv II- Zukunft - Modus einfach erklärt | LAKschool
> 
> Konjunktiv II- Bildung - Modus einfach erklärt | LAKschool
> 
> The form with "würde" is used for futur1, and in coll. language for present tense, too.
> See also sources.


Thank you for the response. 

Can you tell me anything of how often the würde form is used in written German for strong verbs? Or does anybody have any detailed source on it?


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## Hutschi

I do not know the full answer but I found more details in the Duden.
Duden | Konjunktiv II oder „würde“-Form?


> Der Konjunktiv II wird häufig dann durch _würde_ + Infinitiv ersetzt, wenn er mit der Form des Indikativs Präteritum übereinstimmt. So sind [...] die mit_ wir _und _sie_ verbundenen Formen des Konjunktivs Präteritum der starken Verben mit _i _oder_ ie (wir riefen, sie gingen)_ identisch mit den Formen des Indikativs Präteritum. Deshalb ist in folgenden Sätzen die _würde_-Konstruktion sinnvoll, um die Potenzialität bzw. Irrealität der Aussage deutlich zu machen:...


Beispiel:
Sonst würden wir nicht gehen. statt: sonst gingen wir nicht.

Compare also:
weil sie gehen würden - statt: weil sie gingen




> Daneben kann die _würde-_Konstruktion auch anstelle altertümlich wirkender
> Konjunktiv-II-Formen gebraucht werden:
> ...


Beispiel: wenn sie backen würden - statt: wenn sie büken

I replaced the Duden examples by own ones due to length restrictions in quotations.


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## bearded

Frank78 said:


> But that only applies to past subjunctive


What do you mean? ''If I/he were...'' refers actually to the present: ''if I were in London *now*..''.
And so does an irrealis form like ''I wish I were there with you''.
I don't feel that ''it applies to past subjunctive''.


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## Kajjo

Mozzerfan99 said:


> the use of the subjunctive in written German


I understand your question, but I want to begin with pointing you to the difference of Konjunktiv I (mostly for indirect speech) and Konjunktiv II (many applications from irrealis to replacement of Konj I). I recommend to use the German grammar terms for German grammar, because the English terms often do not match perfectly.

You questions aims solely at Konjunktiv II usage, doesn't it?

The guideline you are looking for is difficult to provide. Mostly it is about a _feeling_ of natives which Konj II forms sound "normal" as opposed to "old-fashioned or stilted" or even outright "obsolete or funny-weird". In consequence, many very of the most frequently used verbs have preferred Konj II forms while many other verbs don't.

A clear rule is that _sein/haben _almost always form proper Konj II. As you stated, most auxiliary verbs do, too.

As second guideline you can take, the more elevated, sophisticated a text or author is, the more likely proper forms are used, even if not so common.


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## Mozzerfan99

Kajjo said:


> I understand your question, but I want to begin with pointing you to the difference of Konjunktiv I (mostly for indirect speech) and Konjunktiv II (many applications from irrealis to replacement of Konj I). I recommend to use the German grammar terms for German grammar, because the English terms often do not match perfectly.
> 
> You questions aims solely at Konjunktiv II usage, doesn't it?
> 
> The guideline you are looking for is difficult to provide. Mostly it is about a _feeling_ of natives which Konj II forms sound "normal" as opposed to "old-fashioned or stilted" or even outright "obsolete or funny-weird". In consequence, many very of the most frequently used verbs have preferred Konj II forms while many other verbs don't.
> 
> A clear rule is that _sein/haben _almost always form proper Konj II. As you stated, most auxiliary verbs do, too.
> 
> As second guideline you can take, the more elevated, sophisticated a text or author is, the more likely proper forms are used, even if not so common.


Thank you for your response, yes I should have been clearer with the wording in my question. I think I just said Subjunctive because I was originally going to ask something about Konjunktiv I too.

Anyway, do you think that whether it sounds 'stilted' or not does just depend on the verb? Or on the scenario? Because I listed I few strong verbs that I believe are commonly used in the simple Konjunktiv II form in written German - if I was to always use those in the Konjunktiv II form, and always use other strong verbs (except things like the modals) in the würde form, would that lead to me sounding stilted at times? Or would that be a reasonable starting point?

Because I am not expecting to write perfect German for every scenario, just hoping to sound reasonably normal in things like essays.


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## Kajjo

Mozzerfan99 said:


> whether it sounds 'stilted' or not does just depend on the verb


Absolutely, yes.



Mozzerfan99 said:


> if I was to always use those in the Konjunktiv II form ... would that lead to me sounding stilted at times


No, the verbs you have given as examples are fine in proper Konj II form.



Mozzerfan99 said:


> to sound reasonably normal in things like essays


Your approach seems to be reasonable.


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## anahiseri

Frank78 said:


> _If I bought the film, I would cry a lot_
> 
> Since this is irrealis it can't be "Wenn ich den Film kaufte, weinte ich viel" but must be "Wenn ich den Film gekauft *hätte*, hätte ich viel geweint".
> 
> Frank, there are two irrealis:  irrearlis in the passt and in the present


If I had bought the film,  (gekauf hätte) irrealis IN THE PAST
IF I bought the film now (Kaufte / kaufen würde) irrealis  IN THE PRESENT


Hutschi said:


> I
> 
> 
> 
> Beispiel: wenn sie backen würden - statt: wenn sie büken
> 
> I replaced the Duden examples by own ones due to length restrictions in quotations.


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## anahiseri

I'm quite sure I have never in my life heard or read *büken.  *Well, I only lived in Germany until age seventeen, but iI'd guess this vlerb form sounds weird to German speakers  living in German speaking countries, even if they have heard it. Please, 100% German speakers, confirm -  or contradict.


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## Hutschi

anahiseri said:


> I'm quite sure I have never in my life heard or read *büken.  *Well, I only lived in Germany until age seventeen, but iI'd guess this vlerb form sounds weird to German speakers  living in German speaking countries, even if they have heard it. Please, 100% German speakers, confirm -  or contradict.


that is why I used it.
Backen, buk, gebacken ,... büken. This is the old form.
See more details:
Wie konjugieren wir backen?



> Da sich die Konjunktiv-II-Formen immer aus dem Präteritum eines Verbs ableiten lassen, gibt es für _backen_ auch hierbei zwei korrekte Varianten. Während die schwache Konjugation die der Vergangenheit entspricht, gibt es bei der starken Beugung eine Umlautverschiebung.





> _ich backte, du backtest, er/sie/es backte, wir backten, ihr backtet, sie / Sie backten_





> _ich *büke*, du *bükst*, er/sie/es *büke*, wir *büken*, ihr *bükt*, sie / Sie *büken*_


ps: I use the strong declension, but for conjunctiv prefer the "würde" form very often.
It is an example for words which sound weird in Konjunktiv.


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## Mozzerfan99

Hutschi said:


> ps: I use the strong declension, but for conjunctiv I prefer the "würde" form very often.
> It is an example for words which sound weird in Konjunktiv.


So would you say there is a difference between the form (Konjunktiv II or würde form) people generally choose when writing conditional sentences compared to when they have to use the Konjunktiv II/würde-form when writing indirect speech in the third person plural when the Konjunktiv I form is indistinguishable from the indicative?

Are people generally more likely to use the simple form or the würde form, or would it usually be about the same?


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## anahiseri

I think there are at least 3  parameters:  weak     /      strong verb
                                        strong  form  "weird"  /   sounds OK
                                        informal, spoken       /    formal language 

points on the left increase likelihood of *würde
p*oints on the right increase likelihood of "strict" subjunctive
needs some elaboration !!


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## elroy

This thread may be of interest.


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