# Punjabi : Subah for kal



## Cilquiestsuens

hello,

In spoken Punjabi, *subah* (morning) is often used to mean tomorrow (and not specifically tomorrow morning, but just tomorrow, as if it'd mean : after next morning)... *asi ê kamm subah karaa.n ge*

does any other Indian language has this feature or use different words than the usual *kal* for tomorrow / yesterday ?????


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## bakshink

I am not aware if  "subah" is used for tomorrow in Punjabi. But if the conversation is taking place especially in the evening or at night it obviously will stand to mean "kal subah" otherwise the person speaking will say "parson subah", "chauth subah" etc.


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## BP.

cilki I've heard this quiet a few times, said in the latter half of a day, each time by the very same person though. Makes sense, since you're putting off something for the next day and would klike others to believe that you'll get it done the first thing in the morning.

I realize this is a Punjabi thread, but the usage is the same between the two languages.

As a personal note, have you noticed that N. Africans pronounce the word _sbeH_?


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## panjabigator

So is this something Urdu does not do?

I always used <saver> in Panjabi and <subah> in Urdu, though I realize there is quite a bit of fluidity between these two languages.


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## Faylasoof

No PG, in standard Urdu we don't. But we do have another problem, and a serious problem one too! 

As you know in Hindi-Urdu <kal> can mean _yesterday_ or _tomorrow_! Once Salman Rushdie commented on this and said: A people speaking a language that uses the same word for yesterdayand tomorrow show a lack of grip on the concept of time!


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## Cilquiestsuens

I must say that in the Punjabi I here everyday, *subah* has simply replaced *kal*... In the morning would be expressed by the word *saver(e)*...

BP, The North-African pronounciation as is *sbaah-al-khair*... as for the disappearance of the first short vowel between two consonnants, it is a common feature of North-African dialects of Arabic.... But this is a slightly different word. *sabaah* (with an alif).

Fayla, Let's not have a row over Salman Rushdie and his stupid (racist?) comments on his own culture...


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## Faylasoof

Clico, I have no intention of starting a row over SR! Merely saying that the likes of him take advantage of the vagueness of our Hindi-Urdu <kal>. 

BTW, this guy doesn't provoke me. Never did. I like to remain above all this.


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## Cilquiestsuens

Faylasoof said:


> Clico, I have no intention of starting a row over SR! Merely saying that the likes of him take advantage of the vagueness of our Hindi-Urdu <kal>.
> 
> BTW, this guy doesn't provoke me. Never did. I like to remain above all this.


 
Right, I understand. 

As for kal, I think saying it is vague is not doing justice to it. Think about one thing.... It is precise enough and native speakers never feel uneasy about it...

Now, telling that yesterday/today/tomorrow is precise and kal/aaj/kal is vague is part of those pseudo linguistics that were promoted by colonial powers with the obvious objective of inducing an inferiority complex in the conquered people. Modern linguistics are past that.

And whenever someone becomes judgemental, it means that he has left science for something else...

All languages are precise and perfect means of communication. They should be studied and not judged.

If you ask me I think that kal meaning both tomorrow and yesterday is a powerful concept which hints at the cyclical aspect of time. Indians / Pakistanis / Bangladeshis, etc. should be proud of having such a powerful concept in their languages.... And this is a gora ('white man' or 'angrez' telling you that)

(End of this much needed digression!)


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## Faylasoof

Clico, I don't think this was a digression as such! At the moment I shall not say anything about whether the colonial powers have anything to do with this or not. I've myself been wondering about some of these things for a while and have been "researching" in my free moments.  We can discuss this _later in a new thread_. 

What I want to ask you (and other Punjabiphones) now is this. Given what you say above about a certain level of lassitude concerning the idea of time enshrined in our culture, and as reflected in some aspects of our languages, then is this the reason why in Punjabi one uses <kal> for <subh / subah>? Or is there a more mundane reason? Perhaps we can’t really answer this but I thought I might as well ask.


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## panjabigator

You may be on to something with this, Faylasoof.  I have to state that, though it may be very obvious, despite similar grammar and vocabulary, Panjabi is spoken differently than Urdu is.  So maybe this also just be a linguistic idiosyncrasy.  

Panjabi has two words for the concepts of tomorrow and yesterday: <kall> and  <bhalak>.  I'm actually a big fan of the word <kall>: it expresses the idea of being one day removed from the present, which is a really unique way of conceptualizing time, no?  And then we have the word for two-days removed (<parso.n>), etc.  I'm not really too familiar with Rushdie's take on Hindi/Urdu being inferior than English (which is my general understanding gleaned from reading your posts), but I find this interpretation of time to be advanced and interesting.  Just my thought.  

The second word is only used for "tomorrow" and is tonal (sounds like <p'àlak>.


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## Faylasoof

PG, I agree that Urdu and Punjabi are of course different but there is a certain use of some words pertaining with time that have occupied me for some time. I need to do more on this before I say more. 

Anyway, this is getting more interesting. So Punjabi does have both <kal / kall> and <phalak / p'àlak>.   Alas, not the same for (current) Urdu and Hindi. But Urdu-Hindi have redeemed themselves by having words like <parso.n>, <narso.n> and <tarso.n>!!  

I think we need a new thread for all this.


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## Cilquiestsuens

Well, just to throw some food-for-thought in your basket, let me share one thing that has been itching me brains for many years now...

*Aage* in Urdu, can replace in Spoken aa'indah (aa'yendeh in Persian, I think), meaning = in the future. (aage aisa phir kabhii nahi.n hoga)

This word, *aage*, is however quite ambiguous... In the expression *agle log*...(= pehle) it means people of old....

*I wonder if in Punjabi; agge, doesn't mean both (in the future and in the past)????*

Reminds me of the Arabic concept that what is behind your back is the future (becaue you don't know what it is), and what's in front of you is the past (it's in your hands, you know what it is)... And I've read recently a post about a Mayan language having exactly the same concept.

In *Aage / agge*, it seems that two opposite conceptualization are at work. The one telling that what is in front of you is your future (the direction you're heading to) and the one telling that what's in front of you is what you know = your past.

I wonder how *agram*, the original sanskrit word was used.

Sorry for the digression....


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## panjabigator

This is something that has plagued me for quite sometime.  I only know <agge> to be a future construction in Panjabi, but I defer to Bakshink Sahib for further elucidation-e-Panjabi (izafat is SO useful  ).


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## Cilquiestsuens

*agge* would rather be a past construction in Punjabi!!!

A number of dictionaries give it as an equivalent of *pehle*.

My guess is that it is actually used the same way as *kal*.

With a future verb it means : in the future.

With a past verb it means : in the past !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now I'm asking our respected scholars (Faylas and BP). What about Urdu ???


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## bakshink

First thing Cliqui- Subha is not Kal in Punjabi. Like I said before and BP alluded to, it will stand to mean tomorrow morning and obviously too, if we are talking of doing something in the morning after the morning. 
It is not uncommon to say “kal subha”.

Let's not talk of the idiosyncracies of the language. You can read a whole page in English and yet not know whether the person speaking or being spoken about is a male or a female!

I think using "kal" for the past and the future is a subtle nuance of the language suggesting not to bother about either and see them as same for you can't do anything about either.What you have with you is "Ab" or "Now".

In Hindi and in Punjabi "Aagey se" or "agey ton" mean in future or from now on. “Agon ton aenj na kareen”. Don’t do this in future. 
Yes, in Punjabi and in Hindi too “Aagey-agey” and “Pahle-Pahelon” are used by some people while referring to the past like… Aagey loki ainj  naeen karde san or Pahleon ainj naeen hunda si. People weren’t doing so in the past. It wouldn’t happen in the times gone by. But I think in such cases “log” or “loki”(people) word is often used in the sentence. 

So “agey loki” or “pahle log” could also be meaning  the people who came or lived before us.  
And for future like “Agey dekho”…Let’s see in future. “Pahleon meri gal sun”  First listen to me.


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## Qureshpor

Cilquiestsuens said:


> hello,
> 
> In spoken Punjabi, *subah* (morning) is often used to mean tomorrow (and not specifically tomorrow morning, but just tomorrow, as if it'd mean : after next morning)... *asi ê kamm subah karaa.n ge*
> 
> does any other Indian language has this feature or use different words than the usual *kal* for tomorrow / yesterday ?????



*Yes, this is true in Punjabi.

asiiN e kamm subah karaaN ge

or:

asii e kamm savere karaaN ge

or:

asiiN e kamm "phairiiN" karaaN ge.

And what does "phairiiN" mean? Well, you know "fajr" means dawn? In Punjabi, it becomes fajar/ phajar and ultimately the "j" is swallowed somehow and a little bit of vowel change here and there brings the word to its final unrecognisable form "phair". To this the locative ending -iiN is added to give the meaning "At dawn", i.e. tomorrow! There is of course a perfectly good word "p_hakle" for tomorrow. But, "kal" has almost entirely replaced it. 
*


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## Qureshpor

Cilquiestsuens said:


> Right, I understand.
> 
> As for kal, I think saying it is vague is not doing justice to it. Think about one thing.... It is precise enough and native speakers never feel uneasy about it...
> 
> Now, telling that yesterday/today/tomorrow is precise and kal/aaj/kal is vague is part of those pseudo linguistics that were promoted by colonial powers with the obvious objective of inducing an inferiority complex in the conquered people. Modern linguistics are past that.
> 
> And whenever someone becomes judgemental, it means that he has left science for something else...
> 
> All languages are precise and perfect means of communication. They should be studied and not judged.
> 
> If you ask me I think that kal meaning both tomorrow and yesterday is a powerful concept which hints at the cyclical aspect of time. Indians / Pakistanis / Bangladeshis, etc. should be proud of having such a powerful concept in their languages.... And this is a gora ('white man' or 'angrez' telling you that)
> 
> (End of this much needed digression!)



*I have often wondered about this dual meaning word (along with parsoN etc). I was trying to find a little about this when I came across the following short pdf table in which the learned author offers an explanation.

http://home.uchicago.edu/~lemieux/lemieuxKalProximity.pdf

It appears that "kal" and other similar time words should be viewed in the same way as the spatial "next to" in English, for example. "Next to" on its own does not give the precision we require. The object could be above, below, to the right, left, in front of or behind the point of reference. Similarly, "kal" is a starting point and the context gives it past or future reference.
*


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## bakshink

QURESHPOR said:


> *Yes, this is true in Punjabi.
> 
> 
> asiiN e kamm "phairiiN" karaaN ge.
> 
> *



I think this word comes from Peher पहर. It's a period of three hours. In olden times the day was divided in to eight pehers of three hours each. For more on this you can read here 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pahar


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## Qureshpor

bakshink said:


> I think this word comes from Peher पहर. It's a period of three hours. In olden times the day was divided in to eight pehers of three hours each. For more on this you can read here
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pahar



*Possibly so, but I would still stick to my conjecture.*


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## tonyspeed

Faylasoof said:


> Once Salman Rushdie commented on this and said: A people speaking a language that uses the same word for yesterdayand tomorrow show a lack of grip on the concept of time!



This is interesting. There have been claims recently that speakers of languages where future tense is ambiguous tend to prepare for the future more.
Since kal is both past and future, maybe Hindi/Urdu bolnewale also prepare for the future more than English speakers.


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