# Urdu, Persian: Pronunciation of Qaf ق and Ghayn غ



## licinio

I have noticed that the letter ق seems to have two sounds, one that is like a guttural k, and the other a guttural r, like غ. For instance, آقا does not contain the same sound as قهوه. Is this observation correct? Can you please confirm and possibly give a rule when to use either sound? Thanks.


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## arsham

licinio said:


> I have noticed that the letter ق seems to have two sounds, one that is like a guttural k, and the other a guttural r, like غ. For instance, آقا does not contain the same sound as قهوه. Is this observation correct? Can you please confirm and possibly give a rule when to use either sound? Thanks.



Yes, technically these two letters should be pronounced as a voiced guttural stop ( ق) and a voiced guttural fricative (غ), respectively. This distinction is conserved in some Iranian dialects like Yazdi and a number of Afghan dialects; however, in most Iranian dialects and in the standard version of the language, they have merged into one sound. In other words, they're allophones to each other. Usually if either letter is in the initial position, it's pronounced as a stop, but in median and final positions, especially when intervocalic, it is articulated like a fricative.


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## licinio

arsham said:


> Usually if either letter is in the initial position, it's pronounced as a _stop_, but in median and final positions, especially when intervocalic, it is articulated like a fricative.



Thanks. When you say _stop _above, it is voiced and as such distinct from a همزة?


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## arsham

licinio said:


> Thanks. When you say _stop _above, it is voiced and as such distinct from a همزة?



I used the word "stop" in the sense of plosive/occlusive consonant.  I meant voiced uvular plosive!


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## licinio

Thanks Ashram.


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## licinio

چی قدر
Does the qaf in this expression sound like gh? 
It it at the beginning of a word (and so it should sound like q), but it comes to be intervocalic because of the preceding word. It it's so, can we generalise and widen the rule in post no 2 to comprise a change of sound not just with regard to the word, but to the utterance?


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## Faylasoof

From most of my Iranian friends I hear it as a fricative (غ)!

_chi ghadr _

A  few do say _chi qadr._

When we South Asians speak Farsi we pronounce ق as so, i.e. a guttural _k_ = q ; esp. those of us who have had proper Urdu training in uttering a very clear ق sound. In this respect we are like Yazdis and some Afghans!


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## panjabigator

How about in the word تبقه.  Should the "q" sound like a "gh" here?

My 4000th post!  Exciting!


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## vaftrudner

Hello!

I'm a student of Arabic trying to learn some Persian as well, but I am a bit confused with these letters, غ and ق. I've tried looking them up, according to some resources they are both pronounced [G], like a voiced Arabic ق or a g far back in the throat, while others seem to pronounce both of them [ɣ], like the Arabic غ, close to the r of Parisian French, and still others vary between them. Is this a regional/dialectal difference? What do you recommend for a learning speaker?

Thank you for your help!


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## Faylasoof

Hi!

I moved your post here as this existing thread discusses just the point you want to know. Here Arsham in his posts above provides good, detailed explanations. 

You can see that, according to him, the distinction between ق and غ sounds is conserved in Yazdi and Afghani Persian (also in Indo-Pak Persian, as I mention) but not elsewhere. Most of my Iranian friends always pronounce ق like غ .

Edit:

PG, I guess you already know the answer to this by now. I missed this one! 



panjabigator said:


> How about in the word تبقه.  Should the "q" sound like a "gh" here?
> 
> My 4000th post!  Exciting!



So far all the Iranians I've met pronounce تبقه with a غ sound. None I've met so far use the ق sound and btw none are from Yazd.


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## Birdcall

In the Tehrani Persian that I'm familiar with, there was no qa sound. The letter was either pronounced like a voiced qa (as in the first letter of the Farsi word for food, ghazaa I think? This sound does not exist in Urdu) or like an Arabic/Urdu ghayin. But I'm not sure where these allophones occurred; I have forgotten most of the Farsi I used to know.


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## vaftrudner

Thank you faylasoof, I'm sorry I didn't search properly first. But I would also like to ask for a recommendation. Since I learned Arabic first, it feels much more natural for me to pronounce قدیمی as [Gædi:mi:] and قلب as [Gælb] rather than [ɣædi:mi:] and [ɣælb]. But I have no other features of speech from outside Iran, so will it only make me sound strange? If so I can get rid of the [G]:s as I'm trying to do with all other specifically Arabic sounds


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## Faylasoof

vaftrudner said:


> Thank you faylasoof, I'm sorry I didn't search properly first. But I would also like to ask for a recommendation. Since I learned Arabic first, it feels much more natural for me to pronounce قدیمی as [Gædi:mi:] and قلب as [Gælb] rather than [ɣædi:mi:] and [ɣælb]. But I have no other features of speech from outside Iran, so will it only make me sound strange? If so I can get rid of the [G]:s as I'm trying to do with all other specifically Arabic sounds


No problem vaftrudner! Just wanted to let you know for the future!

As for the the "correct" pronunciation of ق in Persian, my own feeling as a non-native speaker is that it really doesn't matter too much. Iranians understand me perfectly though I keep pronouncing ق as we do in both Arabic and proper Urdu, i.e. as a guttural stop! They realise at once that I'm a foreigner and adjust to my speech!

Just to add this. Apart from my odd, non-Iranian way of pronouncing ق , I mimick the standard Iranian Persian (Tehrani) accent pretty well. This little oddity I personally don't worry about too much and it hasn't given me any problems.  Perhaps they think I am from Yazd even though I may not show other Yazdi habits!


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## vaftrudner

This might be a bit off topic, but is the ق in Urdu only used for Arabic and Persian words? The sound doesn't seem to be native in Hindustani. Does anyone know if there was a [q] or [G] sound in pre-Islamic Persian? My (uneducated) guess would be that the modern [G] originates from Arabic [q] but has come to be voiced.


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## searcher123

licinio said:


> I have noticed that the letter ق seems to have two sounds, one that is like a guttural k, and the other a guttural r, like غ. For instance, آقا does not contain the same sound as قهوه. Is this observation correct? Can you please confirm and possibly give a rule when to use either sound? Thanks.



There is not any difference between "ق" and "غ" pronunciation in Persian.


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## arsham

vaftrudner said:


> This might be a bit off topic, but is the ق in Urdu only used for Arabic and Persian words? The sound doesn't seem to be native in Hindustani. Does anyone know if there was a [q] or [G] sound in pre-Islamic Persian? My (uneducated) guess would be that the modern [G] originates from Arabic [q] but has come to be voiced.


 
Middle Persian had a velar fricative in final and median positions. It was developed from the Old Persian g. Most words spelt wit qaf are of Arabic or Turkish origin.


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## Faylasoof

vaftrudner said:


> This might be a bit off topic, but is the ق in Urdu only used for Arabic  and Persian words? The sound doesn't seem to be native in Hindustani.  Does anyone know if there was a [q] or [G] sound in pre-Islamic Persian?  My (uneducated) guess would be that the modern [G] originates from  Arabic [q] but has come to be voiced.


The  ق in Urdu is in words of Arabic and Turkish origins just as Arsham has mentioned it for Persian: 


arsham said:


> Middle Persian had a velar fricative in final and median positions. It was developed from the Old Persian g. Most words spelt with qaf are of Arabic or Turkish origin.


True it is not a native sound but Urdu is very particular about pronouncing it as ق proper even though many, of not most, of the words we have with ق  came into Urdu via Persian. However, native Urdu speakers pronounce ق as in Arabic rather than as in Persian!


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## vaftrudner

Interesting! Thank you for your replies


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## Qureshpor

I am told that in Modern Persian, Iranians pronounce letters _ غ and __ق (almost) identically. If this is true, would I be right in assuming that the first word in each line of the couplet below would not be differentiated in modern Iranian speech?

__غلغل قمری ار نماند روا ست
قلقل شیشه شراب بیار 

__حافظ_


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## searcher123

Yes, you are right. There is not any difference between them.


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## panjabigator

*Qureshpor Sahib: I've merged your thread with an older one as we've discussed this before. I'm also including reference to this thread where we discussed the voiced gutteral stop "q" in Panjabi.

Panjabigator
(Moderator)
*


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## Qureshpor

panjabigator said:


> *Qureshpor Sahib: I've merged your thread with an older one as we've discussed this before. I'm also including reference to this thread where we discussed the voiced gutteral stop "q" in Panjabi.
> 
> Panjabigator
> (Moderator)
> *



navaazish, shukriyah, mihrbaanii Punjabigator Sahib.


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## Kahaani

Hi,

I often hear a switch in Persian (Tehraani) speech from qaf to Khey/Ghayn (I'm not sure which one it would classify as). 

You can see this in;
Ishq/Eshq - Ishgh/Eshgh
Waqt - Waght
Talaq - Talagh

I was wondering if this is also present in Urdu? Would it be acceptable to say waght instead of waqt? 

Thank you,


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## sapnachaandni

Hi,

the name of “ق” is “qaaf”.
the name of  “غ” is “ghain” in Urdu and  “gheyn” in Persian.
the name of “ک” is “kaaf”/“key”.

We don’t pronounce [ɣ] in Persian (Tehraani). We always pronounce [q] for both “ق”(qaaf) and “غ”(Ur: ghain, Per: gheyn).
In Urdu, “ق” is pronounced [q] and “غ” is pronounced [ɣ].
“ک” (kaaf/key) is pronounced [k] in both Persian and Urdu.

*In writing *“عشق”* with Latin letters*, “eshq” and “eshgh” both are correct in *Persian*, but we always *pronounce* this word as [eʃq] not [eʃɣ], it means we always *pronounce* “eshq”, but “ق”(qaaf) can be *written* as “q” and “gh” in Persian (In writing with Latin letters of course).

In Urdu, the correct pronunciation of “ق”(qaaf) is [q]. It means “عشق” is pronounced [ɪʃq] in Urdu (This word (عشق), can be written as “इश्क” and “इश्क़” in Hindi and it can be pronounced [ɪʃk] and [ɪʃq] both in Hindi).


Now look at “غم” which has “غ”:
Persian *Pronunciation*: [qam]
Urdu *Pronunciation*: [ɣəm] 


There is no difference between Pronunciation of  “ق” and “غ” in Persian, both are pronounced [q], because of this, “q” and “gh” both can be shown “ق” in *writing* Persian with Latin letters.

There is a difference between Pronunciation of  “ق” and “غ” in Urdu, “ق” is pronounced [q] and “غ” is pronounced [ɣ], because of this, “q” is shown “ق” and “gh” is shown “غ” in writing Urdu with Latin letters.


These are right in *writing* *Persian* with Latin letters:
“عشق”: eshq, eshgh
“وقت”: vaqt (or maybe waqt), vaght/ waght
“طلاق”: talaaq/talaq, talaagh/talagh

These are right in writing *Urdu* with Latin letters:
“عشق”: ishq
“وقت”: vaqt/ waqt
“طلاق”: talaaq/talaq


“k” can be written instead of “q” in writing *Hindi* with Latin letters, I don't know whether it can be acceptable in writing *Urdu* with Latin letters or not


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## Wolverine9

sapnachaandni said:


> We don’t pronounce [ɣ] in Persian (Tehraani). We always pronounce [q] for both “ق”(qaaf) and “غ”(Ur: ghain, Per: gheyn).



I thought it was the opposite.  In other words, غ and ق both pronounced as [ɣ] (Gh) in Tehran.


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## sapnachaandni

Wolverine9 said:


> I thought it was the opposite.  In other words, غ and ق both pronounced as [ɣ] (Gh) in Tehran.



No, the pronunciation of “ق” and “غ” is [q] in Tehran not [ɣ].


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## marrish

sapnachaandni said:


> No, the pronunciation of “ق” and “غ” is [q] in Tehran not [ɣ].


It is contrary to what I heard there, it is something in between, nearer to [ɣ].


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## sapnachaandni

^ If the speaker's accent belongs to Tehran, then [ɣ] will not be pronounced.


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## ihaveacomputer

In some circumstances, I believe the pronunciation [ɢ] may be used, as well. It's just like [q] but it's voiced, just like the contrast between [g]/گ and [k]/ک .


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## Qureshpor

From what little I know, there are certain places..I mean juxtaposed with certain consonants where the q has a sound somewhat akin to Ghain but not 3ain Ghain (i.e not exactly Ghain. By the way, in Urdu if some one is 3ain-Ghain, s/he has only one eye!)


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## eskandar

sapnachaandni khanum's information is not correct. Tehrani Persian does not have [q] at all, which is a slightly harder sound than how we pronounce qaaf. You can hear a true [q] in careful Urdu speech, in formal Arabic, and in some regional variants of Persian but _not_ in Tehrani Persian. 

Instead of [q] what is present in Tehrani Persian is [ɢ] ~ [ɣ]. [ɢ] is very similar to [q] with the only difference being that it is voiced whereas [q] is unvoiced. You can compare the difference by listening to audio samples on Wikipedia for [q] or [ɢ]. In Tehrani Persian [ɢ] is the default realization (I think this is what sapnachaandni khanum meant by [q] actually) but it is also inaccurate to say that [ɣ] is never heard. Though I wouldn't normally cite Wikipedia, the article on Persian phonology is accurate and well-sourced and explains the issue well:


> In Classical Persian, غ and ق denoted the original Arabic phonemes, the voiced velar fricative [ɣ] and the voiceless uvular stop [q] (pronounced in Persian as voiced uvular stop [ɢ]), respectively. In modern Tehrani Persian (which is used in the Iranian mass media, both colloquial and standard), there is no difference in the pronunciation of غ and ق, and they are both normally pronounced as a voiced uvular stop [ɢ]; however, when they are positioned intervocalically and unstressed, lenition occurs and they tend to be pronounced more like a voiced velar fricative [ɣ]. This allophone is probably influenced by Turkic languages like Azeri and Turkmen. The classic pronunciations of غ and ق are preserved in the eastern variants of Persian (i.e. Dari and Tajiki), as well as in the southern dialects of the modern Iranian variety (e.g. Yazdi and Kermani dialects).


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## mundiya

eskandar said:


> Instead of [q] what is present in Tehrani Persian is [ɢ] ~ [ɣ]. [ɢ] is very similar to [q] with the only difference being that it is voiced whereas [q] is unvoiced. You can compare the difference by listening to audio samples on Wikipedia for [q] or [ɢ].



Very interesting.  They are very similar.  I had to listen several times to discern the difference: [q] is slightly closer to [k], while [ɢ] is slightly closer to [g].  Also, [ɢ] is much more similar to [q] than it is to [ɣ]. I can see why Sapna jii considered the Tehrani pronunciation to be [q].


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## sapnachaandni

eskandar said:


> sapnachaandni khanum's information is not  correct. Tehrani Persian does not have [q] at all, which is a slightly  harder sound than how we pronounce qaaf. You can hear a true [q] in  careful Urdu speech, in formal Arabic, and in some regional variants of  Persian but _not_ in Tehrani Persian.
> 
> Instead of [q] what is present in Tehrani Persian is [ɢ] ~ [ɣ]. [ɢ] is  very similar to [q] with the only difference being that it is voiced  whereas [q] is unvoiced. You can compare the difference by listening to  audio samples on Wikipedia for [q] or [ɢ].  In Tehrani Persian [ɢ] is the default realization (I think this is what  sapnachaandni khanum meant by [q] actually) but it is also inaccurate  to say that [ɣ] is never heard. Though I wouldn't normally cite  Wikipedia, the article on Persian phonology is accurate and well-sourced and explains the issue well:


Aaqaaye eskandar, The information on Wikipedia is not correct. Please check these books which are about Persian phonetics:
(The information on these books is based on Tehrani Persian.)

"*تاریخ زبان فارسی*" (جلد اول)، از پرویز ناتل خانلری، فرهنگ نشر نو ---> ص 53
"*مبانی زبان شناسی و کاربرد آن در زبان فارسی*" از ابوالحسن نجفی، انتشارات نیلوفر ---> ص 56
"*آواشناسی زبان فارسی، آواها و ساخت آوایی هجا*"(ویرایش دوم)، از یدالله ثمره، مرکز نشر دانشگاهی ---> ص 48-49 و 80



Edit: In Tehrani Persian, /q/ is voiced, but we don't pronounce [ɣ]. /q/ can be devoiced, For example, /q/ is devoiced at the end of the word, but it is not like that audio sample of [q] which is on Wikipedia. By the way, the audio sample of [ɢ] on Wikipedia is not the exact pronunciation of "ق، غ" in Tehrani Persian.
In all Persian phonetics books, <q> is used for representing the pronunciation of "ق، غ", and it has been mentioned that /q/ is voiced in Tehrani Persian.


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## sapnachaandni

mundiya said:


> Very interesting.  They are very similar.  I had to listen several times to discern the difference: [q] is slightly closer to [k], while [ɢ] is slightly closer to [g].  Also, [ɢ] is much more similar to [q] than it is to [ɣ]. I can see why Sapna jii considered the Tehrani pronunciation to be [q].


What I said is based on phonetics books.
By the way, I don't pronounce [ɣ] in Persian.


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## eskandar

sapnachaandni said:


> Aaqaaye eskandar, The information on Wikipedia is not correct. Please check these books which are about Persian phonetics:
> (The information on these books is based on Tehrani Persian.)
> 
> "*تاریخ زبان فارسی*" (جلد اول)، از پرویز ناتل خانلری، فرهنگ نشر نو ---> ص 53
> "*مبانی زبان شناسی و کاربرد آن در زبان فارسی*" از ابوالحسن نجفی، انتشارات نیلوفر ---> ص 56
> "*آواشناسی زبان فارسی، آواها و ساخت آوایی هجا*"(ویرایش دوم)، از یدالله ثمره، مرکز نشر دانشگاهی ---> ص 48-49 و 80
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: In Tehrani Persian, /q/ is Voiced, but we don't pronounce [ɣ]. /q/ can be devoiced, For example, /q/ is devoiced at the end of the word, but it is not like that audio sample of [q] which is on Wikipedia. By the way, the audio sample of [ɢ] on Wikipedia is not the exact pronunciation of "ق، غ" in Tehrani Persian.


I don't have access to those books right now but I suggest the following sources which attest to what I posted above:

International Phonetic Association (1999). _Handbook of the International Phonetic Association: A guide to the use of the International Phonetic Alphabet_. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. pp. 124–125.
Jahani, Carina  (2005). "The Glottal Plosive: A Phoneme in Spoken Modern Persian or  Not?". In Éva Ágnes Csató, Bo Isaksson, and Carina Jahani. _Linguistic Convergence and Areal Diffusion: Case studies from Iranian, Semitic and Turkic_. London: RoutledgeCurzon. pp. 79–96. 
Thackston, W. M. (1993-05-01). "The Phonology of Persian". _An Introduction to Persian_ (3rd Rev ed.). Ibex Publishers. p. xvii.



sapnachaandni said:


> What I said is based on phonetics books.
> By the way, I don't pronounce [ɣ] in Persian.


So is what I said. And since you are a sample size of one, your personal idiolect is statistically irrelevant.  Perhaps some people may not pronounce [ɣ] (or maybe you just don't realize that you do it), but others certainly do. Just for example, you can clearly hear [ɣ] and not [ɢ] or [q] in plenty of recordings from various Persian speakers on Forvo.com - cf. چراغ زرد and حاج آقا and many more.


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## sapnachaandni

eskandar said:


> So is what I said. And since you are a sample size of one, your personal idiolect is statistically irrelevant.  Perhaps some people may not pronounce [ɣ] (or maybe you just don't realize that you do it), but others certainly do. Just for example, you can clearly hear [ɣ] and not [ɢ] or [q] in plenty of recordings from various Persian speakers on Forvo.com - cf. چراغ زرد and حاج آقا and many more.



I didn't say [ɣ] is not pronounced in Persian. I said [ɣ] is not  pronounced in Tehrani Persian. It is not my idea and it is not about my  personal idiolect. It's the information which has been written in phonetics books.


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## mundiya

Sapna jii, if you know of any online audio samples of the correct Tehrani pronunciation, could you post them here? I would like to listen.  Do you feel the Tehrani Persian [q] is just like the (proper) Urdu [q]?


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## sapnachaandni

mundiya said:


> Sapna jii, if you know of any online audio samples of the correct Tehrani pronunciation, could you post them here? I would like to listen.


Mundiya jii, I don’t have sample, I should search.



mundiya said:


> Do you feel the Tehrani Persian [q] is just like  the (proper) Urdu [q]?


They are sometimes very similar (maybe just like each other), sometimes totally different, because /q/ has allophones in Persian.


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## marrish

For me it is different. By the way, I'm wondering why this thread is titled "Urdu". It's all about Persian, sholdnt it be Persian (and Urdu)?


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## eskandar

sapnachaandni said:


> I didn't say [ɣ] is not pronounced in Persian. I said [ɣ] is not  pronounced in Tehrani Persian. It is not my idea and it is not about my  personal idiolect. It's the information which has been written in phonetics books.


If it's not about your personal idiolect then why did you bother to say "*I*  don't pronounce [ɣ] in Persian" (emphasis added)? What I am arguing is also backed up by the phonetics books I cited. More to the point, there is a plethora of evidence that contradicts your point. If you don't like the Forvo.com links I provided, you can refer to Youtube as well. You can hear [ɣ] in this BBC Persian report (/watch?v=HPg_MhNaU2s) at 0:04-0:06 (دقایق) and pretty consistently throughout this song by the formerly Tehran-based band Kiosk (/watch?v=6al6Z6hF48E), for example at 0:40-0:48 (قدرت and عشق), at 1:20 (قرمه سبزی), and so on. (Append youtube.com to the beginning of those URLs to access them). This is clear evidence that contradicts your claim that [ɣ] is not pronounced in Tehrani Persian. Meanwhile, I challenge you to find one audio recording of someone pronouncing [q] (*not* [ɢ]) in Tehrani Persian.

marrish SaaHib, I agree on both counts (that Persian and Urdu pronunciation of qaaf are quite distinct, and that the thread title should be changed to "Persian and Urdu"!)


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## Treaty

There is no difference between the pronunciation s of غ and ق in most of Iranian genuine Persian accents (by genuine, I mean the accents of first-language speakers of Persian). In genuine Tehrani accent, they are both pronounced close to [ɢ] in my opinion. By the way, I'm not also a Tehrani speaker. My dialect has both [q] and [ɣ] that, as I perceive, are both different to what is pronounced by local Tehrani speakers.



eskandar said:


> If you don't like the Forvo.com links I provided, you can refer to Youtube as well. You can hear [ɣ] in this BBC Persian report (/watch?v=HPg_MhNaU2s) at 0:04-0:06 (دقایق) and pretty consistently throughout this song by the formerly Tehran-based band Kiosk (/watch?v=6al6Z6hF48E), for example at 0:40-0:48 (قدرت and عشق), at 1:20 (قرمه سبزی), and so on.



I consider your examples more like [ɢ] than [ɣ].


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## sapnachaandni

eskandar said:


> If it's not about your personal idiolect then why did you bother to say "*I*  don't pronounce [ɣ] in Persian" (emphasis added)? What I am arguing is also backed up by the phonetics books I cited. More to the point, there is a plethora of evidence that contradicts your point. If you don't like the Forvo.com links I provided, you can refer to Youtube as well. You can hear [ɣ] in this BBC Persian report (/watch?v=HPg_MhNaU2s) at 0:04-0:06 (دقایق) and pretty consistently throughout this song by the formerly Tehran-based band Kiosk (/watch?v=6al6Z6hF48E), for example at 0:40-0:48 (قدرت and عشق), at 1:20 (قرمه سبزی), and so on. (Append youtube.com to the beginning of those URLs to access them). This is clear evidence that contradicts your claim that [ɣ] is not pronounced in Tehrani Persian. Meanwhile, I challenge you to find one audio recording of someone pronouncing [q] (*not* [ɢ]) in Tehrani Persian.
> 
> marrish SaaHib, I agree on both counts (that Persian and Urdu pronunciation of qaaf are quite distinct, and that the thread title should be changed to "Persian and Urdu"!)



In Persian [ɣ] is pronounced and [ʁ] can be pronounced  too.
I told before, In all Persian phonetics books (actually I should say in many of them), <q> is used for showing the pronunciation of "ق، غ", and it has been mentioned that /q/ is voiced in Tehrani Persian.
In Persian, /q/ is Voiced dorso-uvular (uvular) stop and it has allophones (then /q/ is sometimes like IPA [ɢ]). Apologise, I wrote [q] and [eʃq] instead of /eʃq/ and /q/ by mistake, because In phonetics books, <q> is used for showing the pronunciation of Persian "ق، غ".

In Tehrani Persain "ق، غ" can be pronounced as a Voiced uvular stop and/or Voiced uvular fricative consonant.* (and it has allophones)


*Samareh, Yadollah (1999/1378): _Aavaashenaasi-ye zabaan-e faarsi: aavaahaa va saaxt-e aavaa’i-ye hejaa_ (_Phonetics of Persian Language: Phones and Phonetics Structure of Syllable_). Tehran: Markaz-e Nashr-e Daaneshgaahi. p. 62.


According to phonetics books, [ʁ] is pronounced in Tehrani Persian not [ɣ].


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## eskandar

sapnachaandni said:


> According to phonetics books, [ʁ] is pronounced in Tehrani Persian not [ɣ].


Well, now this is something different than your earlier claim. Had you worded it this way I might not have bothered to argue; similarly had you been clear that by [q] you actually meant IPA [ɢ] I would have had no disagreement. My point was really that the phoneme in question is often realized as a fricative in intervocalic conditions and is not always a stop. But I'll concede that the fricative may be uvular and not velar as I had claimed. And, for whatever it's worth, while I am not a native speaker of Persian, I learned the language from my family who are native Tehranis (not immigrants from another part of Iran) and native speakers of the Tehrani dialect.


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## sapnachaandni

eskandar said:


> Well, now this is something different than your earlier claim. Had you worded it this way I might not have bothered to argue; similarly had you been clear that by [q] you actually meant IPA [ɢ] I would have had no disagreement.


I wrote what has been written in phonetics books.



eskandar said:


> My point was really that the phoneme in question is often realized as a fricative in intervocalic conditions and is not always a stop. But I'll concede that the fricative may be uvular and not velar as I had claimed.


Right, according to phonetics books, it sometimes can be pronounced as a voiced uvular fricative in intervocalic conditions. And I told before, it has allophones in Tehrani Persian.


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## Qureshpor

^ Lady and Getleman, if a consensus has been reached between the two of you, is it possible to have a conclusion in lay person's language which all mortals can understand? It would be even more helpful if any sound files could be attached which contrast the real Arabic qaaf and Ghain with the Tehrani qaaf and Ghain. For example how would a Tehrani Persian speaker pronounce the following words:

qariib (near) /Ghariib (stranger)

Do the q/Gh sounds change depending on the their position in a word (intial, medial or final) and/or do they change depending on the proceding/following vowel or consonant?

Thanking both of you in advance for your kind assistence.

PS. eskandar SaaHib, one positive thing that has already come out of this discussion is some personal information about you!


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## sapnachaandni

^ There is no difference between pronouncing "قریب"(qariib) and "غریب"(Ghariib) in Tehrani Persian. They can be pronounced [ɢaɾiːb]*.

* "zabar" (ــــــَـــ) is pronounced as an open front unrounded vowel ([a]) in Tehrani Persian and most of Iranian Persian accents, It means it is not a near-open front unrounded vowel ([æ]).
In Tehrani Persian, "re"(ر) is pronounced as an alveolar flap consonant ([ɾ]) in intervocalic conditions. [ɾ] is one of the allophones of "re"(ر) in Tehrani Persian.


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## sapnachaandni

Qureshpor said:


> Do the q/Gh sounds change depending on the their position in a word (intial, medial or final) and/or do they change depending on the proceding/following vowel or consonant?


Yes, it has allophones*:
It becomes semi-devoiced in the beginning of the word (after silence), like "قند" /qand/. It also becomes semi-devoiced in adjacent voiced consonants, like "نقض", "نغز" /naqz/.
It becomes devoiced at the end of the word, like "مرغ" /morq/. It also becomes devoiced in adjacent voiceless consonants, like "نقطه" /noqte/.

And, it sometimes can be pronounced as a voiced uvular fricative in intervocalic conditions in Tehrani Persian, for example, "آقا"/aaqaa/ can be pronounced as both [ʔɑɢɑ] and [ʔɑʁɑ]**.


*Samareh, Yadollah (1999/1378): _Aavaashenaasi-ye zabaan-e faarsi: aavaahaa va saaxt-e aavaa’i-ye hejaa_ (_Phonetics of Persian Language: Phones and Phonetics Structure of Syllable_). Tehran: Markaz-e Nashr-e Daaneshgaahi. p. 49.

**Samareh, Yadollah (1999/1378): _Aavaashenaasi-ye zabaan-e faarsi: aavaahaa va saaxt-e aavaa’i-ye hejaa_ (_Phonetics of Persian Language: Phones and Phonetics Structure of Syllable_). Tehran: Markaz-e Nashr-e Daaneshgaahi. p. 62.


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## sapnachaandni

Dear Urdu speakers,
Would you please listen to (1) and (2), and tell me, does the initial consonant sound like Urdu "ق" or not?


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## marrish

sapnachaandni said:


> Dear Urdu speakers,
> Would you please listen to (1) and (2), and tell me, does the initial consonant sound like Urdu "ق" or not?


It does sound like it to my ears.


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## sapnachaandni

marrish said:


> It does sound like it to my ears.


Thank you marrish jii, "ق،غ" can be pronounced like it in Tehrani Persian, because of this I told Persian "ق،غ" and Urdu "ق" are sometimes very similar, and sometimes totally different, because "ق،غ" has allophones in Persian and "ق،غ" can be pronounced as a voiced uvular fricative (as I said above).


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## eskandar

Qureshpor said:


> ^ Lady and Getleman, if a consensus has been  reached between the two of you, is it possible to have a conclusion in  lay person's language which all mortals can understand? It would be even  more helpful if any sound files could be attached which contrast the  real Arabic qaaf and Ghain with the Tehrani qaaf and Ghain. For example  how would a Tehrani Persian speaker pronounce the following words:
> 
> qariib (near) /Ghariib (stranger)
> 
> Do the q/Gh sounds change depending on the their position in a word  (intial, medial or final) and/or do they change depending on the  proceding/following vowel or consonant?


In layman's terms: in Tehrani Persian, there is no difference in pronunciation between qaaf and ghayn; they are treated as exactly the same sound, just as siin and Saad. However, the pronunciation of that sound may differ depending on where it occurs in the word (for some speakers). Generally it sounds like what you hear in the links in post #26 above, but when it occurs in between two vowels (as in آقا or فغان) it may change to a sound something like the French 'R' which you can hear in the links in post #13.

You can then compare these sounds with the Arabic qaaf (ie. here) which, to avoid technical vocabulary, differs from the sound found in Persian in that one's vocal cords do not vibrate while producing this sound, whereas the vocal cords do vibrate when producing the Persian qaaf. (The result is that the Arabic sounds 'harder' to my ears). The Arabic ghayn is also different, as you can hear here. It is pronounced with the tongue further forward in the mouth than the Persian equivalent: for the Arabic sound the tongue is against the back of the roof of the mouth, where kaaf and gaaf and Khaa are also produced, whereas for the Persian sound(s) the tongue is further back, against the uvula.

Hopefully that make all of this more or less clear without resorting to linguistics jargon. (Sarkaar khaanuum sapnachaandni, shomaa ham baa towziih-e iin jaaneb movaafeqiin?)


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## mundiya

To me the initial consonant in audio file 1 (of post 26) sounds slightly different than that in audio file 2.  Did anyone else notice that?


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## sapnachaandni

eskandar said:


> Hopefully that make all of this more or less clear without resorting to linguistics jargon. (Sarkaar khaanuum sapnachaandni, shomaa ham baa towziih-e iin jaaneb movaafeqiin?)


There is more than one way to explain. I prefer using linguistics jargon.

(jenaab aaqaaye eskandar, baa tozihaat-e shomaa movaafeqam va hamun tor ke moshaahede farmudid, mataalebi ke man dar post-haaye #24 va 25 neveshte budam baa tozihaat-e shomaa dar post-e #29 motaabeqat daare, tanhaa baa yek baxsh az soxanaan-e shomaa movaafeq nistam: "without resorting to linguistics jargon".  Shomaa in tor pasandidid ke masalan be-jaaye [ʁ] yaa "voiced uvular fricative" befarmaayid "French 'R'", ammaa hamishe nemishe az in shive estefaade kard, mesl-e hengaami ke bexaaym dar baare-ye "vaaj-gune-haa" (allophones) sohbat konim. dar har haal man estelaahaat-e zabaan-shenaasi (linguistics) ro tarjih midam.)


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## eskandar

Albatte manam baraa-ye in mowzu' tarjih midam az estelaahaat-e zabaanshenaasi estefaade konam! However I was responding to aaqaa-ye Qureshpor's request that we explain the issue in "lay person's language which all mortals can understand" and therefore avoided technical jargon.


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## marrish

mundiya said:


> To me the initial consonant in audio file 1 (of post 26) sounds slightly different than that in audio file 2.  Did anyone else notice that?


Yes, they do differ a tad but I don't think it is of qualitative importance.


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## Sibawayh

Hello all,

I had noticed this difference a long time ago, but Tehrani speakers usually couldn't even understand there were two different sounds when I had asked them about it.

I won't bring much novelty to what has already been posted, but maybe wording it differently can make it clearer for readers. Also I want to you to confirm/validate what I understood.

In Tehrani Persian, the letters ق and غ are the same phonem. However, they will either sound like a uvular stop [ɢ] or like a voiced uvular fricative [ʁ], depending on the sounds that precede and follow it.

The [ʁ] is the most common prononciation of the french R and the arabic غ. There are more than one way to pronounce these letters in French and Arabic, but the Parisian R and the normative tajweed غ are the same as far as I know. The Persian sound is undoubtly very close but I'm not 100% sure it is exactly the same.

The [ɢ] doesn't exist in any regional accents in French as far as I know, nor in traditional Arabic for that matter. It sounds to me as something between Arabic ق and Persian گ (= French G), much less stressed than the unvoiced arabic ق which has a hard and muffled sound.

I will now post what two foreign experts of the Persian language have to say about it.

Ann Lambton said in her Persian Grammar:

"غ and ق are not differentiated by most speakers. Both are pronounced as a voiceless uvular plosive (formed by the back of the tongue coming into contact with the rearmost part of the soft palate), unless between two back vowels when they tend to be pronounced as a voiced uvular plosive."

Gilbert Lazard said in his Grammaire du persan contemporain:

"ق/غ is a post-velar consonant, fricative or occlusive, and generally voiced, at least in part. Between two vowels, it is usually uttered as a voiced fricative, quite close to regular French R ("grasseyé"), but sometimes as a voiced occlusive or semi-occlusive:
EX. باقی bâqi (remaining), شغال shoqâl (jackal)
The same goes in final position and before a voiced consonant:
EX. باغ bâq (garden), عقد aqd (marriage contract), نقره noqre (silver)
Before an unvoiced consonant, this consonant is pronounced, in literary language, as a voiced occlusive or semi-occlusive (but in colloquial language it is often confused with خ):
EX. وقت vaqt (time), تقصیر taqsir (fault)
In initial position and when it is geminate, this consonant is most of the time occlusive and partially unvoiced:
EX. قالی qâli (carpet), بقال baqqâl (grocer), دقت deqqat (attention)
REMARK: Historically this consonant represents either the voiced velar fricative ɣ (written as غ) or, in Arabic and Turkish loan words, the unvoiced post-velar occlusive q (written as ق). In the contemporary Farsi from Tehran, whatever the origin, it is undoubtly the same single phonem."


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## Dib

Sibawayh said:


> Before an unvoiced consonant, this consonant is pronounced, in literary language, as a voiced occlusive or semi-occlusive (but in colloquial language it is often confused with خ):
> EX. وقت vaqt (time), تقصیر taqsir (fault)



Hey, I noticed this on my recent trip to Iran, but I was trying to convince myself that I had misheard.


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## Qureshpor

Dib said:


> Hey, I noticed this on my recent trip to Iran, but I was trying to convince myself that I had misheard.


You did n't have to go all the way to Iran to hear this. Hyderabad would have been much closer!


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## Dib

That I had already heard.
Btw, look at my present location. You'll realize Iran was actually closer.


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## Cilquiestsuens

By the way, the *wakht* pronounciation for what should theoretically be *waqt*, is also a very regular pronunciation in Dari (Afghanistan); despite a very distinctive *qaaf* being the norm in Dari in other contexts (intial, intervocalic, final).


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## chifladoporlosidiomas

Salâm hameye,

I have been looking for a definitive answer to how these two letters are pronounced. I've been listening to different sources and I have been hearing different pronunciations. I have read this link on this website that talks about it, but I'm not quite sure what to take from that…

What I know:
1. These two sounds are pronounced the same way
2. The pronunciation is something between [ɢ~ɣ~ʁ] (with its unvoiced counterparts) and this is where the confusion comes from…

<<Youtube links removed>>

Would it be wrong if I always pronounced it as /ɣ/?

Thanks in advance!


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## Treaty

There is no one definite answer because Persian and Persian speakers are too diverse. Generally, there are a few options for each letter:

qaaf as [q] or [ɢ], or (very colloquially and rarely) [x]
gheyn as [ɢ] or (less often) [ɣ].

You can pick any of them. It is said that Tehrani accent picks [ɢ] for both but I'm not sure of it. If you want to stick to only one phoneme, use [ɢ] for both.

P.S. Your greeting after _salam_ should be '_be hamegi'_, or '_be hame_[-_ye shoma_]_'._


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## tarkshya

Mine is a slightly sideways question, but still relevant to this thread. Is there any "native" Persian word having qaf or gheyn in it? By native I mean a word whose etymology can be traced to Old Persian or beyond. My understanding is that these two letters are found only in Arabic loanwords, but I need confirmation.


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## Treaty

tarkshya said:


> Mine is a slightly sideways question, but still relevant to this thread. Is there any "native" Persian word having qaf or gheyn in it? By native I mean a word whose etymology can be traced to Old Persian or beyond. My understanding is that these two letters are found only in Arabic loanwords, but I need confirmation.



There are many with gheyn (though they were pronounced with [g] in middle Persian but maybe with [ɣ] in Sogdian). Some examples are: غریدن, غاز, لغزیدن, مغاک, آغاز. However, Words with qaaf are rare, and they are just variants of [k] or [ɣ], even maybe influenced by Turkish or Arabic. Examples are نقره, قو and probably قارچ.


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## PersoLatin

I'm a native Iranian Persian speaker, I know غ and  ق are pronounced quite distinctly from one another, in Arabic. However, in Persian, I never pronounce them differently, and I have not come across any *Iranian Persian speakers*, who do. That however doesn't mean there aren't any. The singers in the your video links do pronounce them the same.

The only reason I can think of, for the difference you mention, may well be due to the position of each of those letters, in a word, perhaps between groups 1 & 2 in the list below, although I really can't replicate that difference for myself.
۱ قوم − غوغا or قمار − غبار 
۲ تقلید − ترغیب
۳ اتفاق − ابلاغ
غ and ق are (should be) pronounced the same, in every case, above.

My advice is:  use the pronunciation of غ in غوغا, (as you already have a sound sample for it) and replicate that whenever you come across غ or ق,  regardless of where they are in a word.


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## fdb

In Afghan and Tajik Persian ق and غ are pronounced differently, pretty much as in Arabic.


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## CyrusSH

Words with غ sound in Persian are interestingly similar to Dutch words:

غاز (Ghaz) - Gans (Goose)
غریو (Gheriv) - Geroep (Clamor)
غژ (Ghezh) - Gesuis (Whiz)
غک (Ghek) - Gek (ludicrous)
غل (Ghel) - Gerol (Roll)

Of course most of Persian words with ɣ sound are actually Sogdian form of Iranian words with x sound.


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## Eastern Ludicrous Writer

I heard that ق and غ in Dari and Tajik Persian, have different pronunciation. In most of Iran also include Kerman and Yazd, as I am from that areas and based of my knowledge, there is no differ. Only in Yazd both ق and غ has a emphasis on that word.  For example تغار or اقرار. Most common problem of children in Iran is how to pass the dictation lesson. We see this problem in.... س and ص.... or.... ط and ت......or.....ظ and ز and ذ.
Is that true, children in the school as Arab people know how to write the words with correct spelling? 
Thanks for your information in advanced


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## Derakhshan

Yes, they are differentiated as /ɣ/ and /q/, as in Arabic.

/q/: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/19/Voiceless_uvular_plosive.ogg

/ɣ/: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Voiced_velar_fricative.ogg

In most of southern Iran (Fars, Kerman, Hormozgan, Bushehr, Yazd) and in Kurdish and Balochi, they are traditionally differentiated. So چاق would be /tʃaq/ and داغ would be /daɣ/. (Actually, in parts of Fars and in Hormozgan, we would pronounce ق as /k/, and sometimes غ as /x/, but in our "formal" accent they are still differentiated as /q/ and /ɣ/, like in Arabic/Afghani/Tajik).

If you're not noticing this in speakers from these areas, I guess it's due to influence from Standard Iranian Persian, and the media which is all in Tehrani, especially in younger generations. Or maybe some people imitate a more standard dialect, while at home speaking their native dialect. Maybe if you go to more rural areas you can hear it.


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## Eastern Ludicrous Writer

Derakhshan said:


> Yes, they are differentiated as /ɣ/ and /q/, as in Arabic.
> 
> /q/: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/19/Voiceless_uvular_plosive.ogg
> 
> /ɣ/: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Voiced_velar_fricative.ogg
> 
> In most of southern Iran (Fars, Kerman, Hormozgan, Bushehr, Yazd) and in Kurdish and Balochi, they are traditionally differentiated. So چاق would be /tʃaq/ and داغ would be /daɣ/. (Actually, in parts of Fars and in Hormozgan, we would pronounce ق as /k/, and sometimes غ as /x/, but in our "formal" accent they are still differentiated as /q/ and /ɣ/, like in Arabic/Afghani/Tajik).
> 
> If you're not noticing this in speakers from these areas, I guess it's due to influence from Standard Iranian Persian, and the media which is all in Tehrani, especially in younger generations. Or maybe some people imitate a more standard dialect, while at home speaking their native dialect. Maybe if you go to more rural areas you can hear it.


Thanks!


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## Derakhshan

OK, so I've gathered that initial and final غ-ق is pronounced [ɢ] while intervocalic is [ɣ]. But I keep finding exceptions to these "rules".

Thankfully this website (forvo.com) has audio files of native speakers pronouncing words.

Now listen to these four Iranian pronunciations of قورباغه:

قورباغه pronunciation: How to pronounce قورباغه in Persian

The first and third say: [ɢurba*ɢ*e]

But the second and fourth say: [ɢurba*ɣ*e] !

Here is one of لاغر, clearly [la*ɢ*ær]:

لاغر pronunciation: How to pronounce لاغر in Persian, Kurdish

But these two or چاقو are clearly [tʃa*ɣ*u]:

چاقو pronunciation: How to pronounce چاقو in Persian, Urdu

These for باقی are [ba*ɣ*i]:

باقی pronunciation: How to pronounce باقی in Persian, Urdu, Kurdish
باقی مانده pronunciation: How to pronounce باقی مانده in Persian

Both of these for آقا are [a*ɢ*a]:

آقا pronunciation: How to pronounce آقا in Persian, Urdu

And then this one for آغاز, which you would expect to be the same as آقا, but its actually [a*ɣ*az]!

بی آغاز pronunciation: How to pronounce بی آغاز in Persian

So how do we explain all of this? It seems intervocalic pronunciation can be either, depending on the speaker. Or is there some convoluted rule for some of these words?


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## Derakhshan

Derakhshan said:


> Yes, they are differentiated as /ɣ/ and /q/, as in Arabic.
> 
> If you're not noticing this in speakers from these areas, I guess it's due to influence from Standard Iranian Persian,


Let me expand on this a bit more for those that say they dont hear a غ - ق distinction in Iranian dialects:

When people from different provinces converse with eachother nowadays, they just emulate a Tehrani accent, either partially or completely, especially if they are youths or if they have spent time outside their region. So you are not likely to hear the ق غ distinction even from people whose dialect has it.

Before media like TV, radio etc were widespread and centralized, this probably wasn't the case.

I remember when my grandparents would speak Persian (rather than our local dialect) to Iranians from different provinces, they spoke a version that was rather different from mainstream Iranian Persian of today, and rather closer to Classical Persian:

- final _-e _of nouns pronounced -_a _(e.g. _hāmel*a*, barand*a*_)
- negator _ne_- for present tense pronounced *na*-
- diphthong _ow_/_aw_ preserved (e.g. _chet*ow*r_, _sh*ow*har_)
- fathe pronunciation of certain verbs like رسیدن = _r*a*sidan_, کشیدن = _k*a*shidan_
- ق and غ distinguished

This is also how they would read classical poetry, etc.

Probably, in the age before modern mass communication/media and centralization (I mean mainly the 1st half of the 20th century), Persian was taught in schools with the features of the local dialect, so if the local dialect had the features I listed above, that's how it was taught.

Nowadays Persian is taught in the mainstream accent, and the media is in Tehrani, so if you speak Persian to a youth from almost any region, and they are aware that you're not from their region, they will emulate a Tehrani accent as much as they can. And the dialects themselves are being affected; I notice that some youths from my region have stopped differentiating ق from غ in certain common words, so they say /vāɣean/ rather than /vāqean/ for واقعا, and /moɣeye/ instead of /mowqaye/ for موقعِ, even when talking with family.


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## Qureshpor

^ Very interesting Derakhshan. May I ask what dialect of Persian your parents spoke?


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## Derakhshan

It's rather a different but closely related language (Larestani). But neighboring varieties such as rural Fars dialects and Bandari also have the features I mentioned.


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## Qureshpor

Derakhshan said:


> It's rather a different but closely related language (Larestani). But neighboring varieties such as rural Fars dialects and Bandari also have the features I mentioned.


Thank you.


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## Derakhshan

If you want to hear distinguishing of ق and غ in Iranian Persian. It was clearly evident in Qasem Soleimani's speech (he was originally from Kerman):
[Check Youtube the video entitled: خاطرات جالب حاج قاسم سليماني ]

For example he pronounces غیرت /*ɣ*eyræt/, غرق /*ɣ*ærq/, but قطعات /*q*ætæʔat/.

If you are familiar with the غ - ق distinction, then you will hear it very clearly.


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## Haji Firouz

Hello!

For quite some time, I was under the impression that غ and ق are pronounced the same, but as I came across:


> تغییر دادن /tagh'yir daadan/ TO ALTER, TO CHANGE;


Notice the apostrophe in the phonetical transcript?
This corresponds to a glottal stop, right? 

I would mimic this in my own language by pausing a bit between two syllables. As I know, the glottal stop follows the letter "ein" (ع), but until today I didn't realise it is also added after "ghein" (غ).

So am I right to say the difference between تغییر (means "change", "replacement"?) and تقییر (if such word existed) is that the former has a glottal stop and the latter, does not?

Is the stop before or after "ghein"?

_Later edit_: Ok, I went to Forvo: the pronunciation dictionary. All the words in the world pronounced by native speakers and searched for تغییر to hear it pronounced by natives, I didn't hear any pause... does this mean تغییر and تقییر (if the latter existed) are pronounced the same? Makes me wonder about the use of the apostrophe in the transcript...

Thank you,

Confused.


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## Derakhshan

There is no glottal stop in تغییر.


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## Haji Firouz

Derakhshan said:


> There is no glottal stop in تغییر.


Ok, thank you. That apostrophe make me create a whole hypothesis... Any idea what the apostrophe could mean in the phonetical transcript, though?

And I suppose there is no rule for choosing between غ or  ق , given that they are essentially pronounced the same?


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## Derakhshan

I can't think of any reason for it.

There is no real way of choosing in standard Iranian Persian, you just need to memorise which words have a ق or غ. 

In other Persian varieties, they are two different-sounding letters.

If you speak one of those, or Arabic for that matter, you'll be able to choose based on sound.


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## truce

In Iranian Persian both "ق" and "غ" are pronounced the same.
Example:
قریب ===> near
غریب ===> alien, strange, jarring


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## eskandar

*Moderator's note: I've merged several threads on the same subject into one larger thread. Please use the search function to find existing threads before starting a new one.*


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