# Talking about happiness



## Tommaso Gastaldi

"Glee", in the other thread, made me wonder about the possible translations of the "happiness" concept.

Do you think that the following correspondence is ok:

Felicità - happiness
Gioia - glee
Contentezza - joy

[add more]...

??


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## You little ripper!

Contentezza = contentment
Gioia = joy, delight
Felicità = happiness

is the way I would translate those Tommaso.


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## You little ripper!

_Allegria_ is how Garzanti translates _glee_, but the English word glee has a sense of maliciousness or smugness connected to it, usually felt when someone fails at something or has bad luck.


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## TrentinaNE

Interestingly, for each of those Italian words, De Mauro uses the other two in its definition. Maybe it's a question of degree. In English, I think of contentment as being the least emotional word: it can connote little more than satisfaction. Happiness and joy, I find almost interchangeable. Glee has an element of giddiness, like a happiness you weren't expecting and therefore feel more intensely. Other English-speakers may disagree with my rankings.  But I'm wondering, Tommaso, if you'd ascribe similar differences of degree to contentezza/gioia/felicità? And how would allegria fit in?

Elisabetta



> the English word glee has a sense of maliciousness connected to it.


Say it ain't so, Charles: _... and they shouted out with glee, "Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer, you'll go down in history!"_  Then you've got the whole "glee club" thing -- singing out of spite?


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## Tommaso Gastaldi

That's interesting... I am wondering whether we have a word that can express happiness mixed with maliciousness... 
...not easy, perhaps "essere contento", "essere soddisfatto" (said ironically) could render sometimes it ??



			
				Charles Costante said:
			
		

> _Allegria_ is how Garzanti translates _glee_, but the English word glee has a sense of maliciousness or smugness connected to it, usually felt when someone fails at something or has bad luck.


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## You little ripper!

[


> Say it ain't so, Charles: _... and they shouted out with glee, "Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer, you'll go down in history!"_


_Glee_ can just mean _deligh_t, but it definitely also has the sense of _smug satisfaction._ Most dictionaries will agree with me.


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## carrickp

Charles Costante said:
			
		

> _Allegria_ is how Garzanti translates _glee_, but the English word glee has a sense of maliciousness or smugness connected to it, usually felt when someone fails at something or has bad luck.


Hmm. I wouldn't have said that about "glee" in AE. The dictionary definitely has that as one of the definitions though -- but I'd never have known that without your hint. Is "glee" used with the malicious feeling in Australia? Actually, "glee" isn't used that much in AE these days.


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## TrentinaNE

Charles Costante said:
			
		

> [
> _Glee_ can just mean _deligh_t, but it definitely also has the sense of _smug satisfaction._ Most dictionaries will agree with me.


Well, that's interesting. I must admit, I don't hear the word much these days, but when I do, it seems to mean the first definition that's usually given: great merriment, jubilant delight. Perhaps you Aussies are more caustic?  

Elisabetta

_Uh-oh, it looks like carrickp and I are double-teaming our Aussie mate!_


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## Tommaso Gastaldi

These everyday concept are actually more complicate than one would expect..

As to Allegria, It seems to me that, with respect to the other words: gioia, felicita', expresses a kind of more superficial state. It's more like you appear, and not necessarily what you are...

My scale is:

1 felicita'
2 gioia
3 contentezza

Allegria its more like a superficial and temporary state of the mind .... but let's see what the others suggest...

Also contentezza has something of temporary (but less than allegria)...



			
				Charles Costante said:
			
		

> [
> _Glee_ can just mean _deligh_t, but it definitely also has the sense of _smug satisfaction._ Most dictionaries will agree with me.


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## You little ripper!

carrickp said:
			
		

> Hmm. I wouldn't have said that about "glee" in AE. The dictionary definitely has that as one of the definitions though -- but I'd never have known that without your hint. Is "glee" used with the malicious feeling in Australia? Actually, "glee" isn't used that much in AE these days.


_Glee_ is a pretty old fashioned word except when refering to smug delight here in Australia. _To rub one's hands together with glee_ is probably the most common expression where it is used here.


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## carrickp

Charles Costante said:
			
		

> _Glee_ is a pretty old fashioned word except when refering to smug delight here in Australia. _To rub one's hands together with glee_ is probably the most common expression where it is used here.


Too right. They did that in Sydney when they saw my American Express card.


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## TrentinaNE

Tommaso Gastaldi said:
			
		

> These everyday concept are actually more complicate than one would expect..
> 
> As to Allegria, It seems to me that, with respect to the other words: gioia, felicita', expresses a kind of more superficial state. It's more like you appear, and not necessarily what you are...


Tommaso, conosci la canzone _Aggiungi un posto a tavola_? Contiene questa linea:


> sorridi al nuovo ospite
> non farlo andare via
> dividi il companatico
> raddoppia l'allegria.


Mi sorprende che _allegria_ in questo contesto sia un'emozione temporanea, ma forse è usata solo per fare la rima con _via_...

Elisabetta


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## Tommaso Gastaldi

Actually, you example confirm the idea that Allegria is referring to something which appears outside, and perhaps doesn't last for long...

For instance, I could be full of sorrow and completely unhappy with my life, but still pretend to be *allegro* when I am with my friends. And this certainly would not make me happy. Do you remember "Ridi Pagliaccio" ?



			
				TrentinaNE said:
			
		

> Tommaso, conosci la canzone _Aggiungi un posto a tavola_? Contiene questa linea:
> 
> Mi sorprende che _allegria_ in questo contesto sia un'emozione temporanea, ma forse è usata solo per fare la rima con _via_...
> 
> Elisabetta


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## lsp

Tommaso Gastaldi said:
			
		

> Actually, you example confirm the idea that Allegria is referring to something which appears outside, and perhaps doesn't last for long...
> 
> For instance, I could be full of sorrow and completely unhappy with my life, but still pretend to be *allegro* when I am with my friends. And this certainly would not make me happy. Do you remember "Ridi Pagliaccio" ?


perhaps then allegro = cheerful?


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## You little ripper!

carrickp said:
			
		

> Too right. They did that in Sydney when they saw my American Express card.


 
_



			Carrickp: touché!!
		
Click to expand...

_These are a few examples of how glee can be used in  the sense of of _smug delight._
Americans never _rub their hands in glee_ when they see an Australian with a credit card.
Americans never get a gleeful look in their eyes when they see Australians with a Visa card; they just wish they would all go home.


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## carrickp

Charles Costante said:
			
		

> These are a few examples of how glee can be used in  the sense of of _smug delight._
> Americans never _rub their hands in glee_ when they see an Australian with a credit card.
> Americans never get a gleeful look in their eyes when they see Australians with a Visa card; they just wish they would all go home.



Not at all -- we LOVE Australians, especially with credit cards. Hey, we sell beer here, too! And half of the leading American film stars are Australians. I think most of us wish we _were_ Australians. This is the fair dinkum.

And now back to our regularly scheduled language.


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## Tommaso Gastaldi

Perhaps what differentiates most *Felicita'* and *Allegria* is that felicità refers more to the inside and allegria more to the outside.

I would forget about the "temporary" distinction.

Also a felicità can be temporary.

For instance if Elaine come to see me in Rome I would be "felice" (not "allegro"). But, then, if we go eat a pizza, we could actually have an "allegra" serata insieme con gli amici. And, if I drink too much, I could become un po' troppo "allegro" (meaning in this case that slight diziness and disinhibition you have when drink slightly more than usual) ...


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## You little ripper!

carrickp said:
			
		

> Not at all -- we LOVE Australians, especially with credit cards. Hey, we sell beer here, too! And half of the leading American film stars are Australians. I think most of us wish we _were_ Australians. This is the fair dinkum.
> 
> And now back to our regularly scheduled language.


You have a very good command of Australian slang carrickp, but I would like to make one small correction.


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## You little ripper!

Tommaso Gastaldi said:
			
		

> Perhaps what most differentiates *Felicita'* and *Allegria* is that felicità refers more to the inside and allegria more to the outside.
> 
> I would forget about the "temporary" distinction.
> 
> Also a felicità can be temporary.
> 
> For instance if Elaine came to see me in Rome I would be "felice" (not "allegro"). But, then, if we go eat a pizza, we could actually have an "allegra" serata insieme con gli amici. And, if I drink too much, I could become un po' troppo "allegro" (meaning in this case that slight dizziness and disinhibition you have when you drink slightly more than usual) ...


Just a few corrections Tommaso.


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## TrentinaNE

Tommaso Gastaldi said:
			
		

> Perhaps what differentiates most *Felicita'* and *Allegria* is that felicità refers more to the inside and allegria more to the outside.
> 
> I would forget about the "temporary" distinction.


Grazie, Tommaso. Penso di capire adesso, e così sono molto felice!  

Elisabetta


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## carrickp

Charles Costante said:
			
		

> You have a very good command of Australian slang carrickp, but I would like to make one small correction.


Yay! Now I can screw up in THREE languages: AE, Italian and OzE. Thanks, Charles, for setting me straight on Australian vernacular.


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## You little ripper!

carrickp said:
			
		

> Yay! Now I can screw up in THREE languages: AE, Italian and OzE. Thanks, Charles, for setting me straight on Australian vernacular.


You're welcome carrickp!  You forgot to mention BE. Is that the vernacular that you're brilliant at?


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## moodywop

To me the difference between "allegria" and "felicità" is not a matter of degree but a qualitative one. 

We often say that "una persona allegra" is pleasant to be with. "Una persona allegra" is always in a good mood, enjoys life, is "the soul of the party". So it's definitely something more superficial, as Tommaso suggested. It can also be used to refer to a situation: _c'era un'atmosfera di grande allegria._

"Felicità" is exactly the same as "happiness" in English and we all have a different idea of what constitutes happiness so I wouldn't even venture a definition.

"Allegria" is probably also easier to fake than "felicità".


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## Tommaso Gastaldi

Thank you Charles!

PS
Actually, I have a doubt why it is "came" and not "come" ? Is it because conditional?



			
				Charles Costante said:
			
		

> Just a few corrections Tommaso.


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## TrentinaNE

Tommaso Gastaldi said:
			
		

> Actually, I have a doubt*s* *about* why it is "came" and not "come" ? Is it because *of the* conditional?


Sì. Si può dire anche: _For instance if Elaine *were to* come to see me in Rome I would be "felice" (not "allegro")._ 

(Noi americani sempre abbiamo dei dubbi invece di solamente un dubbio.  )

Buona sera,
Elisabetta


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## lsp

Tommaso Gastaldi said:
			
		

> Thank you Charles!
> 
> PS
> Actually, I have a doubt why it is "came" and not "come" ? Is it because conditional?


It's the subjunctive, as it is in Italian.
 If Elaine came to see me in Rome I would be "felice."
Se venisse Elaine a trovarmi a Roma, sarei felice.


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## Tommaso Gastaldi

Ah, I see... So, you do use subjunctive!  



			
				lsp said:
			
		

> It's the subjunctive, as it is in Italian.
> If Elaine came to see me in Rome I would be "felice."
> Se venisse Elaine a trovarmi a Roma, sarei felice.


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## Tommaso Gastaldi

Grazie!

Buona serata anche a Te!  



			
				TrentinaNE said:
			
		

> Sì. Si può dire anche: _For instance if Elaine *were to* come to see me in Rome I would be "felice" (not "allegro")._
> 
> (Noi americani sempre abbiamo dei dubbi invece di solamente un dubbio.  )
> 
> Buona sera,
> Elisabetta


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## lsp

Tommaso Gastaldi said:
			
		

> Ah, I see... So, you do use subjunctive!


Sure we do, it's just that most Americans aren't even aware of it (unless they learn a foreign language).
Here are a few common examples:
If I were in charge...
Wish you were here
God bless you
So be it
Be that as it may
Let it be


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## Tommaso Gastaldi

Yes! isn't *Let it be *a famous song dei "bacherozzi" ?

In Italian it reminds me:

... lascia che sia tutto così e il vento volava sul tuo foulard. Avevi già reso con te le mani le sere la tua allegria. Non tagliare i tuoi capelli mai, mangia un po' di più che sei tutt'ossa e sul tavolo, fra il the e lo scontrino, ingoiavo pure questo addio... lascia che sia tutto così 



			
				lsp said:
			
		

> Sure we do, it's just that most Americans aren't even aware of it (unless they learn a foreign language).
> Here are a few common examples:
> If I were in charge...
> Wish you were here
> God bless you
> So be it
> Be that as it may
> Let it be


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## lsp

Tommaso Gastaldi said:
			
		

> Yes! isn't *Let it be *a famous song dei "bacherozzi" ?
> 
> In Italian it reminds me:
> 
> ... lascia che sia tutto così e il vento volava sul tuo foulard. Avevi già reso con te le mani le sere la tua allegria. Non tagliare i tuoi capelli mai, mangia un po' di più che sei tutt'ossa e sul tavolo, fra il the e lo scontrino, ingoiavo pure questo addio... lascia che sia tutto così


I learned a lot of Italian translating Baglioni


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## TrentinaNE

lsp said:
			
		

> It's the subjunctive, as it is in Italian.
> If Elaine came to see me in Rome I would be "felice."
> Se venisse Elaine a trovarmi a Roma, sarei felice.


Certo! Grazie della chiarificazione, lsp.

Elisabetta


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