# Many thanks, Thanks much



## HSS

I lived in eastern Indiana in the U.S. some thirty years  ago, and my friends in high school used "Thanks much" a lot (without 'very'). I mean _a lot_. However, one day I realized it was a rarity, and to date I tried not to use it even in casual conversation. But just the other day I heard people using it. Should I not use it at all, even in colloquial situations? To tell you the truth, it pops out of my mouth automatically, especially when chatting with my friends, my close friends.


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## Rover_KE

HSS said:


> Should I not use it at all, even in colloquial situations? To tell you the truth, it pops out of my mouth automatically, especially when chatting with my friends, my close friends.



In colloquial conversation when chatting with close friends you can say whatever you want to say.  Who's going to stop you?

Rover


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## Giorgio Spizzi

Hullo HHS

Maybe "Thanks much" is not as common as "Thanks very much/Thanks a lot", but let's not forget that "very" is just an intensifier, and I can say either "Sue's a pretty girl" or "Sue's a very pretty girl" without a great change in my evaluation.
What I think would hardly be heard is "Thank you much". Dunno why, tho.

Meruri Kurisumasu

GS


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## LilianaB

I would say _Thanks a lo_t, _Thank you very much_ or _Thank  you so much_. These are my favorite.


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## HSS

But how commonly, or uncommonly, is 'Thanks much' used? Or, is it ever?

Oh, yes, Merry Christmas, and Happy New Year!


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## cyberpedant

It's hard to determine how often a phrase is used in speech. I usually say "Thanks a lot." But in the cavalier days of my youth among my college buddies in NYC we often said "Thanks muchly"—especially after having been given a beer. This subtle attempt at being funny may have been entirely peculiar to our circle.


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## Bevj

I've never heard 'Thanks much' but Cyberpedant's 'Thanks muchly' is/was not restricted to NYC.  It was also to be heard in the English Midlands during _my_ youth 
Whether it is still in use, I have no idea.


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## Loob

Hi Hiro

I've noticed some AmE speakers here using "Thanks much" - eg here and here.

I don't think I've come across it in BrE.

Happy Christmas to you too!


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## HSS

The version that I heard, 'Thanks much,' may have been derived from 'Thanks muchly.' It may be, may have been, rather, a derivative of that. My senior year in the Ohio border town is the only time I heard it used often, besides the recent encounter....


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## Alxmrphi

Interesting.  I haven't heard this before. I'll be aware when I do it's used in some places.


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## PaulQ

Bevj said:


> I've never heard 'Thanks much' but ... 'Thanks muchly' ... was also to be heard in the English Midlands during _my_ youth
> ...


 and mine. I've not heard it in years; I suspect it passed away peacefully in the late 1970s.


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## sound shift

I've never heard "Thanks much".


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## Rover_KE

I've heard it occasionally in America.

It always reminds of 

'For this relief much thanks' (_Hamlet_).

Rover


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## HSS

Loob said:


> Hi Hiro
> 
> I've noticed some AmE speakers here using "Thanks much" - eg here and here.
> 
> I don't think I've come across it in BrE.
> 
> Happy Christmas to you too!



Hi, Loob. I looked in the posts hoping to see in what age brackets they were unsuccessfully. I presumed it could be generation-specific.


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## ribran

It's been discussed before on other sites, Hiro.

http://literalminded.wordpress.com/2011/10/18/thank-you-much/


> Suppose the commenter really was objecting to this use of unadorned ​_much as a positive polarity item (PPI). In fact, there are times when PPI much sounds just fine without a very. It can modify comparative adjectives or adverbs: much better, more more quickly, etc. It also works if it has atoo before it: I ate too much._



http://literalminded.wordpress.com/2011/11/28/too-much/


> Since that post last month, I’ve been thinking more about whether​_much is becoming (or has become) a negative polarity item (NPI). Whatever its status, it’s certainly not purely an NPI, since there are so many positive polarity contexts in which it sounds OK; for example, in the company of modifiers such as very (as in Thank you ~ much) and too (as in the video), much doesn’t sound bad at all._


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## boozer

HSS said:


> may have been derived from 'Thanks muchly.' ....


Now this is already damn shocking   I would correct whoever said that even if it were Her Majesty herself!  Has anyone really heard that too?


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## Embonpoint

I've heard "thanks much" from native speakers now and then. I live in Boston and it definitely has a bit of a "not from around here" ring to me.

But it doesn't sound at all wrong to me, in fact I think it's rather charming sounding. If you really like it, go ahead and keep saying it! 

I personally say "thank you so much," more often than "thank you very much," or "thanks a lot" because the latter two are so often used either perfunctorily or sarcastically that they are a bit polluted for me. That is completely just a personal preference.

I've heard "thanks muchly." I associate it with geeky people. I would hazard that the likelihood of a person saying "thanks muchly" is directly proportional to the number of Star Trek episodes that the person has watched.


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## JamesM

boozer said:


> Now this is already damn shocking   I would correct whoever said that even if it were Her Majesty herself!  Has anyone really heard that too?




As a joke, yes.  Don't you play with words in Bulgarian just to have fun?    Sometimes we deliberately make mistakes as a form of humor; weak humor, admittedly, but humor just the same.


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## boozer

JamesM said:


> As a joke, yes.  Don't you play with words in Bulgarian just to have fun?    Sometimes we deliberately make mistakes as a form of humor; weak humor, admittedly, but humor just the same.


Oh, that.  Well, I would accept "Thanks muchly" if given to me with a suitable smile, surely.  I was shocked by the thought it was said in dead earnest...


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## lancer99

PaulQ said:


> and mine. I've not heard it in years; I suspect it passed away peacefully in the late 1970s.



"Thanks muchly" was used quite commonly in the Midwest U.S. (Wisconsin) where I grew up.


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## LilianaB

I have heard it but with a funny intonation, not in serious situations. Merry Christmas to Everyone.


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## HSS

I asked, thinking someone in my generation would be putting up a message, in the Indiana forum of City-Date.com.

It may be generation-oriented, and region-oriented. My friends must have been imitating their parents and grandparents etc.


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## cmom

Just to close this subject, please would somebody tell me if "thanks much" is *grammatically correct*?
Thanks much!
Claudio M.O. Moura aka *cmom*


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## PaulQ

cmom said:


> Just to close this subject, please would somebody tell me if "thanks much" is *grammatically correct*?


No, it is not. (But the thread will remain open. I doubt this is the last that has been heard of the phrase.)


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## cmom

Thanks Paul. Appreciate your so incisive and definite answer.
Very truly yours,
Claudio M.O. Moura aka *cmom*


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## JulianStuart

Then we should probably say that "Thanks a lot" and "Thanks very much" are equally incorrect, no?


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## PaulQ

No. ..............


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## JamesM

PaulQ said:


> No. ..............



But why not?  If "Thanks very much" is okay, why is "Thanks much" not okay?  I can agree that it's not typical but I don't see how one could be "correct" and the other not.


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## PaulQ

"Thanks a lot" and "Thanks very much" and a variety of similar phrases are set, ritualised expressions of gratitude and, thus are parts of the language. Being "Part of the language" they must conform to a grammar of some sort, albeit their own1. They are accepted as correct. I don't think that "Thanks much" has yet reached that stage of acceptance, as has been evidenced above by various posters saying how that phrase has gone in and out of currency.

A reasonable test might be "Does it attract my attention beyond its intended meaning?" Thanks a lot" and "Thanks very much" do not.

We therefore set aside "Thanks much" from the canon of set phrases and look upon it as we would any other two words placed together and, regrettably, and even for the generously minded, it fails.

You might consider set phrases to be units on their own - hence grammatical in any case.

Without stretching into the realms of strawmen, acceptance of such, as yet not established, phrases as an accepted or correct form of grammar would prevent the grammarian from advising on any strange or random combination of here-today-gone-tomorrow words/phrases as might be found on the internet or in Urban Dictionary.

Is "Me and my friend like cars." a set phrase? No. Were it, then it would be accepted and grammatical and greater minds would explain why. 

It may well be that an argument could be raised on the grounds that "Thanks a lot" = "[I give] a lot of thanks [to you]" and "Thanks very much" = "I thank you very much" and thus "Thanks much." = (i) "I give you much thanks." or (ii) "I thank you much." -> can you see how it should be (i) "many thanks." and (ii) is simply wrong? 

"Thanks much" may well go viral and be more than a passing fad and then my earlier answer will then be changed to "Yes, it has recently become a set phrase and thus  acceptable grammar, though the actual structure behind it is unclear. Take it as a set phrase: these have a grammar of their own."

There is a very unsafe line of reasoning that relies a lot on "What is sauce for the goose...", better is "Each case on its own merits." and "Thanks much" is lacking merit.

Finally, to have a non-native speaking English Language student going around insisting on the correct grammar of "Thanks much" is not going to help them with their teacher and will raise eyebrows (if currency is not reached) when they and their friends start saying it in business letters or to native-speaking strangers.

Not *every *trendy phrase is grammatical.

1 And this is not so strange, we have poetic licence, we have headlines, we have idioms.


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## JamesM

As I read your response, what I understand you to say is that "Thanks very much" is grammatical because it is common.  That seems like a weak argument. 

I have no problem with saying that "Thanks very much" is idiomatic while "Thanks much" isn't (for most people).  But to say "Thanks very much" is grammatical while "Thanks much" isn't stretches the meaning of the term "grammatical" too far, in my opinion.


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## natkretep

I suppose one definition of something being grammatical as its frequency or its acceptability.

But going back to 'Thanks much' to being derived from 'Thanks muchly', I just wanted to say that I haven't heard of 'Thanks muchly', though I do hear (and also use) 'Ta muchly'.


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## RM1(SS)

"Thanks much" is quite common in my experience.  And I've both heard and said "thanks muchly."


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## PaulQ

JamesM said:


> As I read your response, what I understand you to say is that "Thanks very much" is grammatical because it is common.  That seems like a weak argument.


Superficially, yes, but (i) if a construction1 becomes accepted (rather than common, although common does not hurt) for sufficient time, does it become correct and if it is correct, does that not imply the grammar is correct? I think my main thrust was acceptability on the "Does it attract my attention beyond its intended meaning?" scale - has it been accepted into currency?


1I think of the drastic change from "Think you that he be afeared?" to "Do you think that he is afraid?" - there came a point at which there was an acceptance of the grammar for the latter. An interesting point is "Does a construction become ungrammatical through lack of use?" The question is usually avoided by saying, "We don't say that nowadays."


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## JamesM

One aspect of many idiomatic phrases is that they do not follow conventional grammar, yet they are accepted and common for quite a long time.  I don't think that's a test for whether something is grammatical or not.  We may simply have a different definition of "grammatical".  "Long time no see" is a common idiomatic phrase in AmE but no one would argue that it is grammatical.


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## PaulQ

I think no one, other than when "Long time no see" is specifically examined in isolation, would mark it wrong or wrong for grammar1.





> (i) You might consider set phrases to be units on their own - hence grammatical in any case [...] (ii) "Does it attract my attention beyond its intended meaning2?"


but something like "He have one sister." will be pounced upon.

1 not the finest example for my argument as "Long time, no see." is rarely encountered outside of direct speech in which much is forgiven.
2 I suppose I should add, "for the wrong reasons."


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## JamesM

We obviously have very different opinions.  I believe it is acceptable because it is idiomatic and "idiomatic" often means "those ungrammatical expressions we accept as part of the language."


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## PaulQ

Although I am beginning to feel like a dog with a bone, one final attempt to convert you, and I will try another tack. So as we do not lose sight of it, here is the question and how it arose:





cmom said:


> Just to close this subject1, please would somebody tell me if "thanks much" is grammatically correct?
> Thanks much!
> Claudio M.O. Moura aka cmom





PaulQ said:


> No, it is not. (But the thread will remain open. I doubt this is the last that has been heard of the phrase2.)





JulianStuart said:


> Then we should probably say that "Thanks a lot" and "Thanks very much" are equally incorrect, no?





PaulQ said:


> No.


Thus my claim is that "Thanks a lot" and "Thanks very much" *are *grammatical, whereas "Thanks much" is *not*.

The following is from the OED:





> [Thanks]: II. Phrases and phraseological uses.
> 5.
> a. thanks: a much abbreviated expression of gratitude for a favour received or recognition of a service; = I give you my thanks, my thanks to you, or the like. Also many thanks, best thanks.


This shows what, when spoken or written, the word represents as a whole and thus that it is grammatical.  





> b. With intensifying advs. and phrases, as thanks awfully, ever so, a lot, a million (orig. U.S.), very much , etc. Also used ironically.


You will see two points

1. “Also many thanks, best thanks.” -> we know therefore that “Thanks” is a countable noun and thus “much” is going to be ungrammatical under current guidance. Much cannot qualify the verb and it cannot qualify the noun “thanks”.

2. that if “thanks” relates back only to a noun and yet “With intensifying *advs*. and phrases, as thanks awfully, ever so, a lot, a million (orig. U.S.), very much, etc.” then "Thanks a lot" = I give you my thanks, a lot of them.” and "Thanks very much" = I very much give you my thanks.” Or I give you my thanks: very much so.” are grammatical.

Here is another interesting use:





> Draft additions  1993
> 
> Also, thanks loads.
> 1944   S. Bellow Dangling Man 171   ‘Thanks,’ Mrs. Bartlett whispered loudly from the dark square inlet of the lower hall. ‘Thanks loads.’


Which must equate to “I give you my thanks, loads of them.”

All we need now do is ask if any of the standard additions or qualifiers to “Thanks” alter the correctness of its grammar, and they do not.

The question then is, that if "Thanks a lot" and "Thanks very much" (and ‘Thanks loads.’) are founded in good grammar and thus are even now grammatical3, isn’t it so that “Thanks much” cannot be grammatical when “much” qualifies neither verb nor noun?




1 that was optimistic...
2 and that, prophetic.
3 Even though much altered.


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## Thomas Tompion

We seem to have two discussions running concurrently: one about whether it's grammatical; the other about whether people say it.

The people who say it are more inclined to accept it grammatically than those who don't, which is hardly surprising.

I've never heard anyone say it in BE.  It clearly is used in AE.

In these short expressions of gratitude or of formal politeness, I'm of the same opinion as James: the grammar is justified by the idiom.

I've suddenly thought that I've never paused in surprise at the line in Act I, Scene 1 of Hamlet (it's about the fourth line of the play, up on the battlements) - *For this relief much thanks*.  In BE *many thanks* is common, of course.


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## JamesM

I think you are a dog with a bone.   The change you make to "Thanks very much" is different from the change you make to "Thanks a lot".  To make them parallel it would be:

"Thanks a lot" = "I give you my thanks, a lot of them" 
"Thanks very much" = "I give you my thanks, very much of them" 

If thanks are countable, the second one obviously doesn't work.  If we are allowing "so" to be used as well as "of them", we would have to deal with yet another common variation -- "Thanks so much".   This one doesn't translate using either of your conversions.

I think you're working very hard to justify an idiomatic expression that simply is idiomatic.  It has no real justification in grammar.  It exists because it exists, but that doesn't make it any more grammatical.  It just makes it part of the language.


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## PaulQ

JamesM said:


> I think you are a dog with a bone.   The change you make to "Thanks very much" is different from the change you make to "Thanks a lot".  To make them parallel it would be:


May I stop you there? There is no claim to being parallel, neither should we think that there is. There is more than one origin as there was more than one phrase - OED makes this point. 

Anyway, as you see me working hard, I, of course, see a non-drinking horse.  I think we must go our separate ways on this one.


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## JamesM

Amen to that.


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## Blinked

I have never, ever heard "Thanks much", as far as I can remember. You would sound very strange if you said that where I live.


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## Everglory

Thanks Much and its Phonetic abbreviation Tango Mike are fairly commonly used in the US Army.


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## Lun-14

This more recent discussion has been added to an existing thread.  Cagey, moderator 

Hi,

_Many thanks.
Thanks much._

Do native speakers use these two? I doubt that the first one is a non-native way of express gratitude - natives don't use this (?)

Thanks much.


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## Barque

"Many thanks" is a fairly common expression. "Thanks much" might perhaps be used in some areas/dialects but it isn't standard. I can't say I've ever heard it said but I seem to remember reading it somewhere.



Lun-14 said:


> I doubt that the first one is a non-native way of express gratitude - natives don't use this


I don't know what you mean. If I've understood the first part correctly, it means the first is _not _a non-native speaker expression, but then you go on to say that natives don't use it.


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## DonnyB

Lun-14 said:


> _Many thanks.
> Thanks much._
> 
> Do native speakers use these two?


There are quite a lot of different ways of thanking people: of the two you've come up with there, "Many thanks" is used quite a lot but mainly in semi-formal contexts, such as a business email, for example.

"Thanks much" sounds odd to me.  Apart from in your OP here, I think I've only ever seen it as "Thanks very much", which again, is common and widely used.


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## You little ripper!

I've not heard the expression 'thanks much'. 'Thanks muchly' is reasonably common in Australia.


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## Tegs

I've heard "thanks muchly" as well, but mostly from American friends. "Many thanks" is as Donny said quite formal. A less formal way of saying this would be "thanks a lot". 

I've not heard "thanks much" before.


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## Lun-14

Barque said:


> I don't know what you mean. If I've understood the first part correctly, it means the first is _not _a non-native speaker expression, but then you go on to say that natives don't use it.



Sorry, I meant: the first one (Many thanks) is a non-native way of thanking people.


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## PaulQ

Lun-14 said:


> Sorry, I meant: the first one (Many thanks) is a non-native way of thanking people.



To avoid confusion: 

"Many thanks" is very common amongst native English speakers.
"Thanks much" is not only unidiomatic, it is also very awkward and, basically, wrong.


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## Rover_KE

I've only heard 'Thanks much' in the USA - and infrequently at that.

I was still pleased to be thanked.


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## RedwoodGrove

I've seen or heard "Thanks much" but not often. It wouldn't surprise me to hear it though. Perhaps a shortening of "Thanks so much". Oddly  reminiscent of Swedish _tack så mycket_, which if you're from northern Minnesota might make sense.


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## natkretep

Well, the non-standard British version of 'thanks much' is 'ta much' (and 'ta muchly', 'ta very much'), I'd say. (Not something I'd encourage learners to pick up, but - still - useful to know!)


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## Lun-14

natkretep said:


> the non-standard British version of 'thanks much' is 'ta much' (and 'ta muchly', 'ta very much'), I'd say.



Do you mean to say that "Thanks much" is used colloquially/informally in BrE?


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## Tegs

Lun, I've never in my life heard "thanks much" in BrE. I would advise you not to use it - to me, it sounds like a mistake. "Ta very much" is a common, informal way of saying thanks in BrE. I've never heard "ta much" either.


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## pob14

If we're going down this road again . . . .

Just to add a data point, I say "thanks much" fairly often, I do not say "thanks very much" (only "_thank you_ very much"), and would never, ever consider saying "thanks muchly."


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