# analogy between neighboring numbers



## Gavril

The word for “9” in Baltic and Slavic languages (e.g., Lithuanian _devyni_) has an initial _d-_ that isn't etymologically expected (compare English _nine, _Latin _novem_, Welsh _naw, _Old Indic _nava_). It's thought by many that the Balto-Slavic word for "9" acquired its initial _d- _through analogy with the following number (as seen in Lith. _dešimt _"ten").

Similarly, the word for “four” in the Germanic languages (German _Vier, _Icelandic _fjórir_, etc.) has an initial _f- _that doesn’t correspond regularly to the initial consonant in other IE languages -- words for "4" in Latin (_quattuor_), Lithuanian (_keturi_), Old Irish (_cethair_) and so on point to an earlier form with *kw-, which should correspond to initial (_h)w-_ in Germanic. Many believe that the _f- _in the Germanic "4"-words, like the _d- _in the Balto-Slavic "9"-words, is due to analogy with the following number (English _five, _Germ. _Fünf, _Icel. _fimm _etc.), where the initial _f- _is etymologically expected.

What other cases do you know of where the form of a numeral (= number word) has been irregularly influenced by the numeral right before or after it?


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## LilianaB

Hi, Gavril. wouldn't you rather link the Lithuanian de_š_imt to the Latin decem, or the Spanish diez?


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## Gavril

LilianaB said:


> Hi, Gavril. wouldn't you rather link the Lithuanian de_š_imt to the Latin decem, or the Spanish diez?



Hi LilianaB,
I think you misunderstood me -- I wasn't denying that _dešimt_ is related to those words. I was saying that the initial _d-_ in the Baltic/Slavic words for "10" (Lith. _dešimt_, Rus. _desyat_') is thought by many to be the basis for the _d-_ in the same languages' words for "9" (Lith. _devyni_, Russian _devyat_' etc.).


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## fdb

This phenomenon is fairly common. Old Iranian has *hafta (Avestan hapta) and *aštā, corresponding regularly with (for example) septem and octo respectively, but Middle and New Persian have haft (7) and hašt (8), the latter with h- by analogy to the word for 7.

Ossetic has aвд /avd/ for 7, aст /ašt/ for 8, but фараст /farašt/ “past eight” for 9.


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## LilianaB

Gavril said:


> Hi LilianaB,
> I think you misunderstood me -- I wasn't denying that _dešimt_ is related to those words. I was saying that the initial _d-_ in the Baltic/Slavic words for "10" (Lith. _dešimt_, Rus. _desyat_') is thought by many to be the basis for the _d-_ in the same languages' words for "9" (Lith. _devyni_, Russian _devyat_' etc.).


Oh, you just had in mind the number nine - _devyni_, that acquired the initial d as a result of the neighboring number -- de_š_imt? I was not really sure what you meant by a neighboring  number. I thought something like the number than follows the first one as in ten million.Ten thousand. Nine hundred. Yes, I am sorry, I really thought you meant the initial d in de_š_imt as well. Yes, it is possible I think that the initial d in devyni could be an influence of the number that follows it, especially if many sources claim that. Are there any other theories, except this one? It does not change into d in all Baltic languages -- Old Prussian has the original n from PIE -- *newinjai (nine) OP.


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## Perseas

In Greek 6, 7, 9 have all initial ε /e/:
6 = έξι /'eksi/
7 = επτά /e'pta/ or εφτά /e'fta/ 
But 8 = οκτώ /ο'kto/ or οχτώ /o'xto/
9 = εννέα /e'nea/


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## fdb

6 and 7 both have an initial s- in Indo-European, which develops regularly to h- in Ancient Greek and then to zero in Modern Greek. So this does not qualify as assimilation.


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## Perseas

fdb said:


> 6 and 7 both have an initial s- in Indo-European, which develops regularly to h- in Ancient Greek and then to zero in Modern Greek. So this does not qualify as assimilation.


Maybe their e plus/or the initial o of οκτώ (ε & ο where the only short _'βραχέα'_ vowels in AG) tell something about the e of 9.


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## sotos

But in greek the number 1 (ena) is similar to 9 (ennea) and the 6 (heksi) with 20 (ikosi), while they are far apart. A statistician would conclude that proximity does not correlate well with similarity and may be accidental.


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## Gavril

LilianaB said:


> Oh, you just had in mind the number nine - _devyni_, that acquired the initial d as a result of the neighboring number -- de_š_imt? I was not really sure what you meant by a neighboring  number. I thought something like the number than follows the first one as in ten million.Ten thousand. Nine hundred. Yes, I am sorry, I really thought you meant the initial d in de_š_imt as well. Yes, it is possible I think that the initial d in devyni could be an influence of the number that follows it, especially if many sources claim that. Are there any other theories, except this one?



Yes, I know of two other explanations:

1) Dissimilation from the final n (*_*n*evy*n*i_ > _devyni_) -- however, this leaves unexplained why _d-_ would be chosen as the sound to replace _n-_.

2) The prefixing of a form *_(e)d_- meaning "one", seen in Russian _odin_, etc. This seems dubious to me, especially if the initial *_n-_ is preserved in Prussian. (Though, if I'm not mistaken, only the ordinal form _newints _"9th" is actually attested in OP?)


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## francisgranada

Gavril said:


> ...  The prefixing of a form *_(e)d_- meaning "one", seen in Russian _odin_, etc.


Does this *_(e)d_- really mean one? As far as I know, the second part of the word _edin/odin_, i.e. _*inъ _(cognate with unus, eins, etc ...) is supposed to have meant originally "one". Of course, this doesn't exclude any possible meaning of *_(e)d-_ ...


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## LilianaB

Gavril said:


> Yes, I know of two other explanations:
> 
> 2) The prefixing of a form *_(e)d_- meaning "one", seen in Russian _odin_, etc. This seems dubious to me, especially if the initial *_n-_ is preserved in Prussian. (Though, if I'm not mistaken, only the ordinal form _newints _"9th" is actually attested in OP?)



Hi, Gavril. I am not sure. It is reconstructed as *newinjai. (the cardinal number). It is possible that only newints appeared in the preserved linguistic material. I cannot access certain things so I could check it more right now.

Regarding (e)d  and _odin_, it was _an_ in Old English (long a) and _ain_ in Old Prussian, so perhaps _odin_ is related to them (or just the -_in_ in odin is related to the other two, and _od_ is a prefix?)


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## Gavril

francisgranada said:


> Does this *_(e)d_- really mean one?



I don't know; researchers' opinions seem to differ on this.

I remembered another explanation for _devyni_, etc.: sporadic alternation between _n-/d-_, as seen in Lith. _debesis _"cloud" (cf. Lat. _nebula_, Welsh _nef_) and _namas _"house" (cf. Lat. _domus_, Greek _dómos_ etc.). But the latter two irregular forms are only found in Baltic (maybe only Lithuanian), and they can be explained independently as dissimilation (in the first case) and assimilation (in the second).


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## osemnais

We have also influenced the number four - че*т*и*ри* - by analogy of three - *три*. The PIE words was something like *kwetwores, which would give *четвор, as seen in the word четворка.(denumbered noun)


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## Dhira Simha

Has it ever crossed anybody's mind that _nava_  and _devjat'  _could derive from different roots? The only connection may be semantic and they could be united by the idea of 9 month, which is the standard pregnancy term. In fact, _nava_ has already been tentatively linked to "new" by Winter in Gvozdanović, J. (ed.), Indo-European Numerals. Berlin/New York: Mouton de Gruyter, Trends in Linguistics, Studies and Monographs 57, 1992. The Slavonic _devjat’ _quite logically may be related to  _deva_   “young woman;  female deity”.

Similarly,  Slavonic  _odin_ “one”  has nothing to do with  Skr. _еka_,  Lat. _uno_, Lith. _vienas_  etc.  The presumed “non conflicting” *_Hoi-no-_   may be a fathom which never existed.


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## francisgranada

Dhira Simha said:


> Has it ever crossed anybody's mind that _nava_  and _devjat'  _could derive drom different roots? ...


It's quite improbable 'cos all the other numbers (untill 10) seem to be cognates of those in other IE languages. Plus, the number _devjať _contained a nasal vowel (maintained in Polish _dziewi*ę*ć_) that corresponds to the "m" in _nove*m* _etc...



> Similarly,  Slavonic  _odin_ “one”  has nothing to do with  Skr. _еka_,  Lat. _uno_, Lith. _vienas_  etc. ...



As far as I know, the second part of the word _edin/odin_, i.e. _*inъ _(< *inu) comes from the same IE root as unus, eins, vienas, etc ... See e.g. here


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## Dhira Simha

francisgranada said:


> It's quite improbable 'cos all the other numbers (untill 10) seem to be cognates of those in other IE languages. Plus, the number _devjať _contained a nasal vowel (maintained in Polish _dziewi*ę*ć_) that corresponds to the "m" in _nove*m* _etc...
> 
> As far as I know, the second part of the word _edin/odin_, i.e. _*inъ _(< *inu) comes from the same IE root as unus, eins, vienas, etc ... See e.g. here



The question of nasal vowels in  some western Slavonic languages is not  that straightforward.  Nazalisation  is not necessarily a reflex of /n/  or /m/  it may arise as a coarticulatory effect  within a certain  articlulatory setting. So Polish nasalised _*ę* _is not necessarily  a reflex of_ /*m*/_.  The argument "all the other numbers (untill 10) seem to be cognates of those in other IE languages" is quite week in itself.

As far as _odin_ and _jedin_ are concerned, what you mentioned is indeed  the mainstream view which I am, of course, very well aware of, but I have grown out of it and do not accept it any longer. There are alternative and more simple explanations. I would substantiate  this more but it will be off-topic. If you want, I can send it to you in a private e-mail or you can start a new thread. It is an interesting topic.

Finally, look again at the digit "9" which has not changed since Brahmi times.


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## fdb

Another good example is Latin quinque, from IE. *penkwe-. The initial qu- could be explained as the result of assimilation to the second (etymological) –qu-, but it was doubtless also facilitated by the analogy to the preceding number quattuor.


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## LilianaB

Dhira Simha said:


> Has it ever crossed anybody's mind that _nava_  and _devjat'  _could derive drom different roots? The only connection may be semantic and they could be united by the idea of 9 month, which is the standard pregnancy term. In fact, _nava_ has already been tentatively linked to "new" by Winter in Gvozdanović, J. (ed.), Indo-European Numerals. Berlin/New York: Mouton de Gruyter, Trends in Linguistics, Studies and Monographs 57, 1992. The Slavonic _devjat’ _quite logically may be related to  _deva_   “young woman;  female deity”.
> 
> Similarly,  Slavonic  _odin_ “one”  has nothing to do with  Skr. _еka_,  Lat. _uno_, Lith. _vienas_  etc.  The presumed “non conflicting” *_Hoi-no-_   may be  fanthom which never existed.



Yes, I think this sounds very interesting. Could _devyni_ be the influence of Slavic languages on Lithuanian, since nine does not start with _d_ in some other Baltic languages, Old Prussian, in particular?


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## Dhira Simha

LilianaB said:


> Yes, I think this sounds very interesting. Could _devyni_ be the influence of Slavic languages on Lithuanian, since nine does not start with _d_ in some other Baltic languages, Old Prussian, in particular?


I do not know. It could be. I generally  support  Trubacyov  and do not  accept  "Balto-Slavonic"  as a proto-language (I reject the whole Scheicherian biologically instignated paradigm of the "language tree" and prefer to use terms like  "proto-dialects"). Slavonic and Baltic dialects have been interracting for a long time so, theoretically, any influence (reciprocal) is possible. However, these forms can also be parallel.


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## francisgranada

Dhira Simha said:


> ... The argument "all the other numbers (untill 10) seem to be cognates of those in other IE languages" is quite week in itself ...


I don't think so. Finally, all theories (hypotheses) are built on some probability and not on certainty. Thus, when we have common IE number sytem in the Slavic languages, and the only "problem" is a "d" instead of the expected "n" in one of the numbers, then what is more probable?  

1. This "d" is the result of assimilation (influenced by the next number) or some similar evolution ...
2. This only number (nine), as an exception, derives from "deva" (young women or female deity) ...


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## LilianaB

There is another thing a about numbers -- they had symbolic and magical meaning in many earlier cultures, so the mythologies of those cultures should also be taken into consideration as a possible etymological source of certain words. Certain numbers, and days of the week especially,  could have been named after particular deities.


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## francisgranada

LilianaB said:


> There is another thing a about numbers -- they had symbolic and magical meaning in many earlier cultures, so the mythologies of those cultures should also be taken into consideration as a possible etymological source of certain words. Certain numbers, and days of the week especially,  could have been named after particular deities.



The magical meaning of the numbers and whatever calendar system _presupposes _the existence of the numbers and not vice versa_.  _


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## LilianaB

Would it be reflected in the names of numbers, in some languages? It is reflected in the nomenclature of the days of the week in many languages and months.


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## Dhira Simha

LilianaB said:


> There is another thing a about numbers -- they had symbolic and magical meaning in many earlier cultures, so the mythologies of those cultures should also be taken into consideration as a possible etymological source of certain words. Certain numbers, and days of the week especially,  could have been named after particular deities.



Like "one"  nine  has an important significance in mythology: "The number 9 is revered in Hinduism and considered a complete, perfected  and *divine* number because it represents the end of a cycle in the decimal system". This is from Wiki but the same also appears in the authoritative Max Vasmer dictionary.  In case of "nine" we deal with something of extreme importance for our ancestors because it was connected with the  most ancient fertility cult. We can expect some special treatment and some inherent logic in choosing the word.


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## Dhira Simha

francisgranada said:


> I don't think so. Finally, all theories (hypotheses) are built on some probability and not on certainty. Thus, when we have common IE number sytem in the Slavic languages, and the only "problem" is a "d" instead of the expected "n" in one of the numbers, then what is more probable?
> 
> 1. This "d" is the result of assimilation (influenced by the next number) or some similar evolution ...
> 2. This only number (nine), as an exception, derives from "deva" (young women or female deity) ...



I also said that the other exception was number "one". Both these theories are intelligible  so you are free to choose. I prefer mine because it goes well with the Heymann Steinthal's "Die hohe Bedeutung, welche die Etymologie als Wissenschaft für die Geschichte des menschlichen Geistes hat, liegt darin, dass sie die Anschauung [...] durch welche jedes Volk die Objecte (Begriffe von Dingen und Verhältnissen) appercipirt oder geschaffen hat".


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## Dhira Simha

There is this interesting book: The Quest for the Nine Maidens.

King Arthur went to Avalon with Morgan and her eight sisters. In this  book McHardy traces similar groups of nine maidens throughout the  ancient Celtic and Germanic worlds and far beyond. In Pictland, Wales,  Ireland, Scandinavia, Gaul and Iberia the nine Maidens were known in  mythology and as practising priestesses. As far away as Kenya the Kikuyu  people claim descent from nine sisters, while a cave painting in  Catalonia shows nine dancing maidens from almost 15,000 years ago.  Weather-workers, shape-shifters, diviners and healers - the Nine Maidens  are linked to the Old Religion over much of our planet.


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## francisgranada

Dhira Simha said:


> Like "one"  nine  has an important significance in mythology ...


I agree with the mythological significance of 1 and 9. Though, other numbers, especially impair numbers (7,5,3), also seem to have their mythological importance ... Do not misuderstand me, I don't negate the connection between numbers and mythology at all.

But ... when you say/admit 


> ... "The number 9 is revered in Hinduism and considered a complete, perfected  and *divine* number because it represents the end of a cycle in the decimal system"...


you explicitely suppose the existence of a decimal system which is impossible to imagine wihout numbers already _pre-existing _(including their names) ... 

(I've the feeling that we are OT ... There is an other thread  What is the origin of the numbers' names (uno, duo etc)?, which may be adequate for the discussion about the origin/original meaning of the numbers)


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## Dhira Simha

Also consider some ancient traditions like:Garba is a Gujarati folk dance celebrated in navaratri (navarātra "a period of 9 days"), a celebration lasting *nine nights. *
The word Garba comes from the Sanskrit word for gestation or pregnancy. Traditionally, the dance is performed around a clay lantern with a light inside, called a _Garbha Deep_. This lantern represents life, and the fetus in the womb in particular. The dancers thus honor Durga, the feminine form of divinity.
 Garba is performed in a circle as a symbol of the Hindu view of time. The rings of dancers revolve in cycles, as time in Hinduism  is cyclical. As the cycle of time revolves, from birth, to life, to  death and again to rebirth, the only thing that is constant is the  *Goddess* (*Devi)*, that one unmoving symbol in the midst of all of this unending  and infinite movement. The dance symbolizes that God, represented in  *feminine form* in this case, is the only thing that remains unchanging in  a constantly changing universe (_jagat_).

 The _Garbha Deep_ has another symbolic interpretation. The  vessel itself is a symbol of the body, within whom Divinity *(in the form  of the Goddess*) resides. Garba is danced around this symbol to honour  the fact that all humans have the Divine energy of *Devi *within them.


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## berndf

The question we are discussing in this thread is:


Gavril said:


> What other cases do you know of where the form of a numeral (= number word) has been irregularly influenced by the numeral right before or after it?



Please keep this in mind.


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## Dhira Simha

berndf said:


> The question we are discussing in this thread is:
> 
> 
> Please keep this in mind.


Exactly, I maintain that there may be nothing to discuss. However, you are right. I have said enough to support my point of view.


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