# Urdu: <ādāb ārz> versus <taslīm> آداب عرض/ تسليم



## panjabigator

(Before I ask my question, I'd like to ask all you regular posters if we can approve some regulated mode for transliteration.  I've just learned how to type ā (and so forth) on my mac and would be happy to explain how to do so in a PM to any interested forero.  If you believe another method is better suited, than by all means tell me.  I also cannot decide if I should use a ˆor a ¯ to depict certain sounds accurately.) 

<ādarnīye mitro tatha azīz dosto>

While living in Lucknow, I found a live and kicking <ādāb> culture within the Urdu speaking echelons, however I found that the typical _adaber _(feminine: _adabette_) was, irrespective of religion, an older Urdu speaker or an educated Urdu speaker.  Many other Urdu speakers would just _salaam_ me, and this perhaps alludes to a widening tendency to use Islamic greetings over secular greetings, but I digress. (We could even expand to "Allah Hafiz" becoming prevalent to "Khuda Hafiz," or even a religious breakdown to Sunni-Shi'a distinct locutions.  I have some interesting theories...)

What I never seemed to hear was <taslīm>.  Granted, I have only heard <taslīm> in the movies, and my Urdu instructors claimed that the greeting is neuter, despite a higher frequency with women.  I'd like to know your thoughts on these two phrases.  How often do you hear these greetings used, and if you ever do, by whom and what age range?  Are you ever surprised by them, and are these phrases indicative of a Lucknavi speaker (I haven't heard them used by anyone else).  I hate to make a sweeping generalization, but my belief is that these phrases are in disuse in Pakistan; speakers my age (from Lahore, Azad Kashmir, and Karachi) always seem surprised when I _adab_ them.  I'd also be interested to know if other S. Asian languages use them; i.e, would a Panjabi Muslim use them?

I look forward to your remarks.

PG


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## BP.

I have vivid memories of <aaDaab> being used as a routine around the household when I was younger (eg. <aaDaab am-mi huzoor>), but it has fallen into disuse because it is incompatible with other peoples' greeting terms. 

Last weekend a friend was surprised when I aadaab-ed him and said he thought the word was particular to the BBC Urdu Service, and they had it to be somewhat compatible to Hindi!

Don't be mistaken though, the word's an Urdu thoroughbred! And you can unmistakably stamp the people using it original Urduphones. At least in Karachi.

<aDab aaDaab> means manners, etiquette, <rakh rakhaao>.

I haven't really heard <Tasleem> being actively used in this sense, though <aadaab o tasleem> is a description. I guess tasleem could be a reply-word.


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## Faylasoof

Yes, _adaab_ has become less frequent though whenever we meet our non-Muslim friends from South Asia, esp. those who are older than us, we still use this. 

_tasleem_ / _tasleemaat_ is still used amongst our family and friends esp. when writing, as: _tasleemaat arz heiN_ … and _adaab arz_ / _adaab arz heiN_ is still common with us. We often use these together with _salaam_ or, in my family _as-salaamu ‘alaykum_ (= peace upon you [literal transl.] = peace be with you [idiomatic transl.]) is also used _together_ with these. 

BTW, _salaam_ and _tasleem_ are linked via the root _s-l-m_. So, the second verbal form _sallama_ gives you _tasleem_. 

_tasleem_ is also used as: _tasleem shudah_ = recognised / accepted

There is actually nothing *religious per se* about _salaam_. As you can see we are just wishing each other _peace_. …. as for which is better or more right: _allah hafiz_ vs. _khuda hafiz_ , I am appalled at the pseudo-religiosity this has come to represent!! Say no more. 

Generally speaking, there has been a decline in _adab-aadaab_! Manners and morals are considered ‘old fashioned’ by some. As we often say to our friends:

_aajkal beshtar gharooN meiN adab-aadaab o tahzeeb ka guzar hi nahi hua hai_!!

In most households these days manners and etiquette haven’t taken root!!


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## panjabigator

Would you say that <ādāb> is more commonly heard in Lucknow than in Karachi?


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## Faylasoof

I think aadaab / ādāb is still more common in Lucknow than in Karachi despite the decline of ādāb culture in the former.


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## Todd The Bod

Every time I've used "adab arz" since my textbooks said it had no religious connotation or "myzaj sharif?" for "how are you" for that matter, all I got was blank stares.   I've yet to meet someone who used the term.


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## Faylasoof

Todd The Bod said:


> Every time I've used "adab arz" since my textbooks said it had no religious connotation or "myzaj sharif?" for "how are you" for that matter, all I got was blank stares.   I've yet to meet someone who used the term.



I'm not surprised actually. We have steadily lost our _adab-aadaab_!

_mizaaj-e-shariif _ought to be understood by Urdu speakers as _shariif_ is used on an daily basis and _mizaaj_, also an Arabic borrowing like _shariif_, though used more in the higher register of Urdu, shuold be familiar to many Urdu-speakers would have come across it in the Quran.  But it seems that is not the case.


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## Todd The Bod

Faylasoof said:


> I'm not surprised actually. We have steadily lost our _adab-aadaab_!
> 
> _mizaaj-e-shariif _ought to be understood by Urdu speakers as _shariif_ is used on an daily basis and _mizaaj_, also an Arabic borrowing like _shariif_, though used more in the higher register of Urdu, shuold be familiar to many Urdu-speakers would have come across it in the Quran. But it seems that is not the case.


 

What are the proper responses to these phrases (do I have to start a whole new thread for "myzaj sharif"?)?


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## panjabigator

Todd The Bod said:


> What are the proper responses to these phrases?



Adab and tasleem, respectively.


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## panjabigator

When people say اداب عرض, is it common to pronounce the _izafat_?  I remember hearing it sans _izafat_ in Lucknow, but I was corrected the other day and told otherwise.  Thoughts?


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## Faylasoof

panjabigator said:


> When people say اداب عرض, is it common to pronounce the _izafat_?  I remember hearing it sans _izafat_ in Lucknow, but I was corrected the other day and told otherwise.  Thoughts?



No! We never put the izaafat?  

 آداب عرض كرنا _aadaab 3arDh karnaa_  =   آداب پیش كرنا_aadaab pesh karnaa_ = to pay respects / give greetings

آداب عرض_ aadaab 3arDh_ = greetings! / hello! / salut!


You can also use the (even) more formal espression:


_aadaab pesh *e* xidmat hai.n _ آداب پیش خدمت ہیں_ = Greetings! - here you get an izaafat as shown above._


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> Yes, _adaab_ has become less frequent though whenever we meet our non-Muslim friends from South Asia, esp. those who are older than us, we still use this.
> 
> _tasleem_ / _tasleemaat_ is still used amongst our family and friends esp. when writing, as: _tasleemaat arz heiN_ … and _adaab arz_ / _adaab arz heiN_ is still common with us. We often use these together with _salaam_ or, in my family _as-salaamu ‘alaykum_ (= peace upon you [literal transl.] = peace be with you [idiomatic transl.]) is also used _together_ with these.
> 
> BTW, _salaam_ and _tasleem_ are linked via the root _s-l-m_. So, the second verbal form _sallama_ gives you _tasleem_.
> 
> _tasleem_ is also used as: _tasleem shudah_ = recognised / accepted
> 
> There is actually nothing *religious per se* about _salaam_. As you can see we are just wishing each other _peace_. …. as for which is better or more right: _allah hafiz_ vs. _khuda hafiz_ , I am appalled at the pseudo-religiosity this has come to represent!! Say no more.
> 
> Generally speaking, there has been a decline in _adab-aadaab_! Manners and morals are considered ‘old fashioned’ by some. As we often say to our friends:
> 
> _aajkal beshtar gharooN meiN adab-aadaab o tahzeeb ka guzar hi nahi hua hai_!!
> 
> In most households these days manners and etiquette haven’t taken root!!



One query Faylasoof SaaHib. In another (Urdu poetry) forum we usually greet each other with "aadaab 3arz hai" and NOT "aadaab 3arz haiN"! In addition to non-Urdu speaking individuals like me, there are a number of ahl-i-zabaan within the group too and they also use the singular "hai". Which is the correct version?


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## Kahaani

I'm truly fascinated by these secular greetings! I know آداب means _manners_ and تسلیم means _recognition_, but can anyone tell me the idea behind them, how did they come into being (especially because they are secular), what are they based on, what is their historical context? Because I think it would be kind of strange if you greeted someone with just saying _manners. _I can imagine it has something to do with the Mughal Era.

بہت بہت شکریہ,
Nigel


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## UrduMedium

Nigel- aadaab is plural of adab, which in addition to meaning manners, also means respect and deference. As in "baRoN kaa adab, chhoToN kaa liHaaz". This meaning is at work in aadaab as a greeting, so aadaab meaning respects in this context. 

tasliim, as Faylasoof mentioned above is the verbal noun of sallama which would be an exaggerated form of salaam so tasliim is related to salaam.

Also to repeat Faylasoof saahab, really there is nothing "religious" or "non-secular" about the salaam (as in assalaamu alaikum) as it is simply a greeting of peace. The optional add-on "wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu" (and grace and blessings of Allah) is what adds a religious flavor to it. But most of the times only the short form is used.

But it is an interesting question as to what triggered these greetings (aadaab, tasliimaat) while the good old salaam was still pretty handy. I'm curious to know that too.


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## Kahaani

!آپ کا جواب کا بہت شکریہ


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## Qureshpor

Kahaani said:


> !آپ کا جواب کا بہت شکریہ


aap *ke* javaab kaa bahut shukriyah.

aur aap ke savaal kaa bhii be-had shukriya! And we all hope someone looks at the question posed in post 12!


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## UrduMedium

^I'd like to know to know the answer to #12 also. I don't recall hearing 'aadaab 3arz haiN' either, almost always 'aadaab 3arz hai' or something like 'aadaab 3arz kartaa/ii huuN'.


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## Faylasoof

UrduMedium said:


> ^I'd like to know to know the answer to #12 also. I don't recall hearing 'aadaab 3arz haiN' either, almost always 'aadaab 3arz hai' or something like 'aadaab 3arz kartaa/ii huuN'.


 I've heard both! The _hai _version is more often heard though.


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## marrish

UrduMedium said:


> Nigel- aadaab is plural of adab, which in addition to meaning manners, also means respect and deference. As in "baRoN kaa adab, chhoToN kaa liHaaz". This meaning is at work in aadaab as a greeting, so aadaab meaning respects in this context. [...]


For this a short illustration by Ahmad Faraz:
_میکدہ میں کیا تکلف میکشی میں کیا حجاب
بزمِ ساقی میں *ادب آداب *مت دیکھا کرو
mai-kade meN kyaa takalluf mai-kashii meN kyaa Hijaab
bazm-e-saaqii meN adab-aadaab mat dekhaa karo
_​


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## Vijay Bajwa

Can one say "tasleem" in response to "wah wah" at a mushaira? What would be most appropo to say? I'm actually looking for such a emoji.


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## Jashn

I have friends who originally hail from the Lucknow area, and I've noticed that when 'aadaab' is used as a greeting, it's usually the younger generation to the older generation. The younger generation typically says salaam to one another. So I wonder if that's just an idiosyncrasy among my friends, or is the reason why Punjabigator hasn't heard people say it to him is because he's not old enough? Could that be a possible explanation?


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## Qureshpor

Jashn said:


> I have friends who originally hail from the Lucknow area, and I've noticed that when 'aadaab' is used as a greeting, it's usually the younger generation to the older generation. The younger generation typically says salaam to one another. So I wonder if that's just an idiosyncrasy among my friends, or is the reason why Punjabigator hasn't heard people say it to him is because he's not old enough? Could that be a possible explanation?


Jashn SaaHib/ah, I would say that the reason Punjabigator had n't heard the greeting with such frequency and tasliim/tasliimaat not at all is because of the general decline of Urdu language and Urdu "tahziib" in India (including areas known for Urdu such as Delhi and Lucknow). Like any language and the associated culture with it, the older generation has more of it than its decedents and this dilution continues to take place. You just compare the Pakistan TV and pakistan Radio programmes of a a few decades ago to what we have now and you will see how far this process has gone.


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## Jashn

That makes sense, thanks for the reply Qureshpor Saahib. And if you wish, saahib is correct for me- I wonder if it shouldn't be added to profiles like English pronouns these days?


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## Sheikh_14

Faylasoof said:


> I'm not surprised actually. We have steadily lost our _adab-aadaab_!
> 
> _mizaaj-e-shariif _ought to be understood by Urdu speakers as _shariif_ is used on an daily basis and _mizaaj_, also an Arabic borrowing like _shariif_, though used more in the higher register of Urdu, shuold be familiar to many Urdu-speakers would have come across it in the Quran.  But it seems that is not the case.


This has got to be one of the most intriguing threads I've come across thus far. I understand that ism-shariif or ism E shariif (for those who prefer adding izaafats) means your honourable name, but would Mizaaj shariif/mizaaj E shariif mean your noble temperament or the temperament/disposition of your honorable self? Put it another way ism shariif is the Urdu variant of good name and shubhnaam thence technically it means shariif ism. In other words the izaafat in that scenario equates to "that is" rather than "of the noble". Even ignoble idiots have an ism shariif, I am assuming mizaaj shariif works along the same lines in that it enquires ones good health rather than the good health of only noble folk. That being said how does one most politely respond to the above as certified by Urdu adab-aadaab (Adab o aadaab)?

A few other queries to top things off, is using Aadaab alone as you would Salaam equally acceptable or Aadaab 'arz/Aadaab 'arz hai are deemed more proper? Similarly, Is it ought to be tasleemaat 'arz hai or haiN? Furthermore, how do you respond to Aadaab/tasleemat or Aadaab/tasleemaat 'arz hai? Do you follow it up with another aadaab or tasleemaat, or an "aap ko bhii". I've not yet come across tasleemaat as a salutation, so am unfamiliar with it. I've primarily come across Aadaab in mushaa'irahs and the go-to response to an Aadaab with a slanted cupped hand in my experience has always been a reciprocal Aadaab with the tantamount slanted hand gesture.

Lastly, isn't Aadaab also used in response to shukriiyah as a means of appreciating one's thanks? In poetry it's used in a manner reminiscent to a man bowing and thanking the crowd for their appreciative comments/chants.


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