# ...Πρέπει να τον βοηθούν όταν έχει ανάγκη



## panettonea

I'll repeat the sentence above in context and follow it with a similar sentence:

a) Οι φίλοι του πρέπει να τον βοηθούν όταν έχει ανάγκη.
b) Οι φίλοι του πρέπει να τον βοηθήσουν τώρα που το έχει ανάγκη.

Now a couple of questions:

1) What is the meaning of _το_ in the second sentence?  It can't refer directly to _ανάγκη_, which is feminine.  Is the antecedent simply understood to be _help_?
2) Is _το_ actually necessary in the second sentence, and could it be used in the first sentence as well?


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## ireney

OK first of all you do know that these two have a different meaning right? (When he is in need, when he's in a difficult position vs now that he needs help).

"Το" stands for "the fact that they'll help". Or, in another words "help"  
Same, more or less with "it" in "must help him when/now that he needs it". And yes, it could be used in the first sentence too. But it would change the meaning to "whenever he needs help".


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## panettonea

ireney said:


> OK first of all you do know that these two have a different meaning right? (When he is in need, when he's in a difficult position vs now that he needs help).



Well, according to my book, the *το *itself doesn't really change the meaning, at least in the opinion of the authors.  The book gives 6 sentences in parallel to illustrate a point.  I didn't really want to type out the entire example, but I guess I'll have to:

------------------------------------------------
_*Πρέπει* in the sense of obligation is followed by a clause introduced by *να* with a verb which may be in the imperfective or the perfective non-past, the imperfect or the pluperfect.  These combinations are exemplified below:

(7) Οι φίλοι του πρέπει να τον βοηθούν όταν έχει ανάγκη
'His friends must help him when he is in need'

(8) Οι φίλοι του έπρεπε να τον βοηθούν όταν έχει ανάγκη
'His friends should help him when he is in need'

(9) Οι φίλοι του πρέπει να τον βοηθήσουν τώρα που το έχει ανάγκη
'His friends must help him now that he is in need'

(10) Οι φίλοι του έπρεπε να τον βοηθήσουν τώρα που το έχει ανάγκη
'His friends should help him now that he is in need'

(11) Οι φίλοι του έπρεπε να τον βοηθούσαν
'His friends ought to have been helping him'

(12) Οι φίλοι του έπρεπε να τον είχαν βοηθήσει
'His friends ought to have helped him'_
---------------------------------------



> "Το" stands for "the fact that they'll help". Or, in another words "help"



Thanks.  OK, that's what I was thinking.  



> Same, more or less with "it" in "must help him when/now that he needs it"



In formal English, everything is supposed to have an antecedent.  So, saying "we'll help him now that he needs it" would not be considered correct.  However, in informal English, that would be fine, because everybody knows exactly what you mean.  



> And yes, it could be used in the first sentence too. But it would change the meaning to "whenever he needs help".



It's interesting how the authors use *το* only in (9) and (10), but consistently translate the end of the first 4 sentences as "he is in need."  I just found it confusing, and still do.  Maybe they have some hidden agenda.


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## panettonea

Oh, I thought of something else.  Why wouldn't it be _*τοu* έχει ανάγκη_?  Doesn't a person have need _of_ something?  Or maybe it's not expressed that way in Greek.

Incidentally, apparently my book (according to its preface) has been translated into Greek as well and is used as a basic grammar source for many Greek universities.  Some of you might even have the Greek version.


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## ireney

Easy one first: Yes, I know, "it" is not considered, strictly speaking correct. I needed some kind of equivalent and, since it's used quite often, in my experience, I thought I'd use it.


Well, it wouldn't be the first time I disagree with a book, university ones included. True, "τώρα που έχει ανάγκη" can be translated (or thought of) as meaning "now that he needs help". But, to me, that's sloppy thinking. Or, if you wish, taking a phrase out of the overall context.

See, in my mind, in the non-το phrasing, ανάγκη refers to the specific thing he's in need of. Say, Ο Πέτρος δεν έχει λεφτά. Πρέπει να τον βοηθήσουν τώρα που έχει ανάγκη (I'm changing it on purpose). Ο Πέτρος έχασε τη μνήμη του. Ο Πέτρος ξέμεινε από καφέ. "Need" in this case refers to the specific help Petros needs.

In the case of "Ο Πέτρος δεν έχει λεφτά. Πρέπει να τον βοηθήσουν τώρα που το έχει ανάγκη" the need refers to the fact that he needs help.

In other words, "το" may not change the fact that he needs help now, it changes the focus between the need and the help. In one case we're focusing on what help he needs, in the other on the fact that he needs help.

It could very well be that this is only my opinion though. I hope others join our conversation.

As for your second question: It's not "του" because it's not "he is need of help" but "he needs help".


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## panettonea

ireney said:


> Easy one first: Yes, I know, "it" is not considered, strictly speaking correct. I needed some kind of equivalent and, since it's used quite often, in my experience, I thought I'd use it.



OK.  Of course, saying "Give him help if he needs it" is perfectly fine.  And anyway, "formal" English is pretty much dying out.  Newspapers and magazines tend to use informal English, so the phrase you wrote could easily be encountered in such publications.



> Well, it wouldn't be the first time I disagree with a book, university ones included.



Well, books aren't always right, that's for sure.



> In other words, "το" may not change the fact that he needs help now, it changes the focus between the need and the help. In one case we're focusing on what help he needs, in the other on the fact that he needs help.
> 
> It could very well be that this is only my opinion though. I hope others join our conversation.



I see what you're saying.  Thanks for your explanation of what you consider the difference between the two.  



> As for your second question: It's not "του" because it's not "he is need of help" but "he needs help".



Yes, but in the clause "τώρα που το έχει ανάγκη" the verb there is "has," not "needs."  Or does έχει mean "there exists" in this case?  It seems that the direct object of έχει is ανάγκη, so grammatically what function does το have there?  That of a second direct object?  It appears to be in the accusative.


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## Live2Learn

Panettonea wrote, "_Yes, but in the clause "τώρα που το έχει ανάγκη" the verb there is "has," not "needs."  Or does έχει mean "there exists" in this case?  It seems that the direct object of έχει is ανάγκη, so grammatically what function does το have there?  That of a second direct object?  It appears to be in the accusative_."[/QUOTE]

Response from L2L: There are some verbs in Greek that use the accusative case for both the direct and indirect object. One verb that comes to mind is _ρωτάω_, e.g._ Ρώτησε *τον* _[not του!] _το ζώδιο του_! Another is _Πάρε *με* _[not μου!] _τήλεφωνο!_


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## Perseas

panettonea said:


> Yes, but in the clause "τώρα που το έχει ανάγκη" the verb there is "has," not "needs."  Or does έχει mean "there exists" in this case?  It seems that the direct object of έχει is ανάγκη, so grammatically what function does το have there?  That of a second direct object?  It appears to be in the accusative.


In Greek there are phrases consisted of the verb _έχω_ plus noun, which are called "περιφράσεις" (η περίφραση).  Some of them are: _έχω τη γνώμη (=νομίζω), έχω την υποψία (=υποψιάζομαι), έχω την προαίσθηση (=προαισθάνομαι)_, έχω ανάγκη (=χρειάζομαι) etc. They remind of the English phrasal verbs.
In this example  "Οι φίλοι του πρέπει να τον βοηθήσουν τώρα που το έχει ανάγκη" *το* is the object of "έχει ανάγκη", and not of "έχει"


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## panettonea

Live2Learn said:


> Response from L2L: There are some verbs in Greek that use the accusative case for both the direct and indirect object. One verb that comes to mind is _ρωτάω_, e.g._ Ρώτησε *τον* _[not του!] _το ζώδιο του_! Another is _Πάρε *με* _[not μου!] _τήλεφωνο!_



Thanks.  I was aware of the first one, but not sure about the second one.  I am now, though.


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## panettonea

Perseas said:


> In Greek there are phrases consisted of the verb _έχω_ plus noun, which are called "περιφράσεις" (η περίφραση).  Some of them are: _έχω τη γνώμη (=νομίζω), έχω την υποψία (=υποψιάζομαι), έχω την προαίσθηση (=προαισθάνομαι)_, έχω ανάγκη (=χρειάζομαι) etc. They remind of the English phrasal verbs.



Thanks.  I betcha my book doesn't even cover that topic.    That's very interesting and helpful to know.  It's not something I could have ever figured out on my own. And now I know why Ireney was saying that the verb is "needs."  



> In this example  "Οι φίλοι του πρέπει να τον βοηθήσουν τώρα που το έχει ανάγκη" *το* is the object of "έχει ανάγκη", and not of "έχει"



OK, now I understand.  So is the antecedent of _το_ then the entire phrase να τον βοηθήσουν?


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## Perseas

panettonea said:


> So is the antecedent of _το_ then the entire phrase να τον βοηθήσουν?


"Οι φίλοι του πρέπει να τον βοηθήσουν" gives us the information we need to know what does "το" refer to. 
So yes, "να τον βοηθήσουν οι φίλοι του" as you say, or with a little rephrasing "τη βοήθεια των φίλων του". 
I totally agree with ireney.


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## panettonea

Perseas said:


> "Οι φίλοι του πρέπει να τον βοηθήσουν" gives us the information we need to know what does "το" refer to.  So yes, "να τον βοηθήσουν οι φίλοι του" as you say, or with a little rephrasing "τη βοήθεια των φίλων του".


  Except in the latter case we have gender mismatch.    But since the tone of the sentences in the book seems to be rather informal anyway, perhaps that kind of stuff doesn't really matter.  


> I totally agree with ireney.


  Now that you explained about the periphrastic verbs, what ireney was saying has become even clearer.


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## Αγγελος

You all reminded me of a memorable exchange from _Alice in Wonderland:
_
[The Mouse is reading aloud from a history book]  "Edwin  and Morcar, the earls of Mercia and Northumbria,  declared  for  him:  and even  Stigand,  the  patriotic  archbishop  of  Canterbury,  found  it advisable--"'
   `Found WHAT?' said the Duck. 
  `Found IT,'  the Mouse replied rather crossly: `of course you  know what "it" means.' 
  `I know what "it" means well enough, when I find a  thing,'  said the Duck: `it's generally a frog or a worm. The question is, what  did the archbishop find?' 
  The Mouse did not notice this  question,  but  hurriedly  went  on,`"--found it advisable to go with Edgar Atheling to meet  William  andoffer him the crown. [etc.]


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