# generic definite article with uncountable nouns



## rightnow

I am puzzled by the contradictory explanation of the 'generic' subclass of the definite article treated in the pag. 112, section 1.12.3.1 of the _Modern Written Arabic: A Comprehensive Grammar_

"it denotes a generic meaning مائدة من النحاس المحفور a table of engraved brass’, which could as well be rendered ‘an engraved brass table’, contrasting with other possible materials. Indeﬁnite phrases also occur in a similar sense, عوارض غليظة من خشب ‘rough joists of wood’, but here the intention is not generic but rather ‘made of some kind of wood’ with no particular contrast with any other possible material."​
Therefore, I'd be really appreciated if somebody could make sense of it, highlight the relevant elements to the issue (mass noun, preposition من, indication of material sth. is made of, etc.), offer clearer examples and if possible a good grammar article on the subject.


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## elroy

I don't agree with the purported distinction.  I think you can include or drop the article in either case with no change in meaning.


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## rightnow

elroy said:


> you can include or drop the article in either case with no change in meaning.



Thanks for replying. Could you please offer some guidelines on when I must be careful and add or omit it, in a context similar to the sentences from the grammar?


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## Mahaodeh

elroy said:


> I think you can include or drop the article in either case with no change in meaning.



It's true that there would be no change in general meaning, but the word in question will change from indefinite to definite, which is still a change in meaning even if it were slight in the overall context.
I mean: مائدةٌ من النحاس المحفور, the word in question, مائدة is indefinite, while in مائدةُ نحاس محفور, the word مائدة become معرّفة بالإضافة


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## rightnow

Mahaodeh said:


> مائدةُ نحاس محفور, the word مائدة become معرّفة بالإضافة


In the examples the preposition من is kept in both types of structures, why did you delete it?
Secondly, I cannot find any mention of the term 'معرّفة بالإضافة', not even in this forum or google; could you explain what it means?


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## elroy

@Mahaodeh, what change in meaning do you see?


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## Mahaodeh

rightnow said:


> why did you delete it?


I'm sorry, there was one thing in my mind, but by the time I started typing something else took over  - I can get a little confused when I surf the internet just before dawn 

Originally I was thinking that there is no difference in the meaning, then I thought: no, there is a difference if one is definite and the other is not. By the time I started typing, my mind was also thinking about the difference between an indefinite and definite table, not just copper! Sorry if I confused you. The post should have been longer to explain both cases.



rightnow said:


> I cannot find any mention of the term 'معرّفة بالإضافة', not even in this forum or google



الاسم المعرف بالإضافة is when a noun becomes definite not by using the definite article, but by using the construct of مضاف ومضاف إليه. As an example, ابن is indefinite, الابن is definite, it's called معرف بال (literally: definite by Al), and ابن خالد is also definite, but it's معرف بالإضافة (literally: definite by adding (another word to it)). The reason why the last one is definite is because we defined it by explaining whose son we are talking about, we did that by adding the name of the father to the word 'son'. I don't know whether the subject can be found in this forum or not, but if there isn't one, you could always start one if you have further questions about it.



elroy said:


> what change in meaning do you see?


What I mean is that there is always a difference between something definite and something not. The difference in meaning is not really very strong or clear, in most cases it could be considered minor and in some cases most people wouldn't notice it.

In the example above, I'm pretty sure that in most cases the two can be used interchangeably. However, we still have to be careful because depending on the context, there may be a significant difference between a definite and indefinite table.

As for what I was thinking of originally, that is: مائدة من النحاس المحفور vs مائدة من نحاس محفور, I actually do see a difference (although further context can show whether it's minor or major). The latter clearly says that the table is made of 'any old engraved copper' whereas the former, depending on context, may be referring to a specific piece of engraved copper.

At least this is my opinion!


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## elroy

Mahaodeh said:


> may be referring to a specific piece of engraved copper.


 Yes, but that is not a generic reading.  This thread is about generics.  I don't see a difference in meaning if the phrase is intended to be generic.


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## rightnow

Thanks once again, but then why is ألـ used in صليب من الذهب or in فنجان من القهوة?


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## elroy

Those are generic so الـ is okay.


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## rightnow

elroy said:


> Those are generic so الـ is okay.


Can the article be dropped in either phrase with no change in meaning? 

I'd really appreciate it if somebody could find an article written in Arabic which deals with it, as I am not fluent enough even to google it.


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## elroy

صليب من ذهب 
فنجان من قهوة


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## rightnow

elroy said:


> فنجان من قهوة


do the tick and cross mean that it can be drop yet it would indeed change its meaning, or rather that it's not grammatical to use it wihout the article?
What would be the new meaning, or why would it be ungrammatical for قهوة but not for ذهب? Either case would contrast with  خشب which  you said could have def. article or not with the same meaning (عوارض غليظة من خشب).


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## elroy

I think فنجان من قهوة is ungrammatical.

The difference between خشب/ذهب and قهوة is that the former are what the thing is made of.


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## Mahaodeh

I would say that فنجان من قهوة is correct even though it is not so common (I have to say, I found it unusual too). The Quran mentions يُطاف عليهم بكأسٍ من مَعين, according to Al Lisaan مَعين is running water. So basically it is saying that the cup has water in it. So I'd say it should be the same as the coffee cup mentioned.


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## rightnow

Mahaodeh said:


> The Quran


Hi, It would be interesting to check in the Qur'an the use of this generic definite article with mass/uncountable nouns after preposition من.

I just checked نار، حديد، ذهب ماء فضة and the article does not appear after من with meaning 'made of'.


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