# perfect passive participles



## fragilistic

Hi! I've run into some trouble and would love an explanation:

sum, esse, fui, futurus vs. sum, esse, fui, ----

eo, ire, ivi/ii, iturus vs. eo, ire, ivi/ii, itus

venio, venire, veni, venturus vs. venio, venire, veni, ventus

curro, currere, cucurri, cursurus vs. curro, currere, cucurri, cursus

Obviously, the fourth part of the verb is different in each example (there are a lot more examples than just these verbs, but these are the ones I've come across most frequently.) My question is this: are both of these different forms of the verb correct, or is one of them wrong? 

Also, if they are both correct, why does Latin need two different spellings? If they aren't both correct, I won't be surprised, since my textbook has proved to be ... not a very good textbook.

Just wondering. Thanks!


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## Anne345

*-urus* is the ending is of Future Active Participle (amāt-ūrus), 
*-us* is the ending Perfect Participle (amāt-us)
Both show the supin stem.


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## Cagey

To supplement Anne345's explanation:

The verbs on your list do not form personal passives in the way regular transitive verbs do.   For instance, from the transitive verb _amo, amare, amavi, amatus_, comes _amatus es_: "you have been praised".  There is no similar form for _venio_ that means "you have been arrived/ come", which wouldn't make sense anyway.  Your textbook marks these verbs by not offering a passive fourth principal part, but providing a future active participle instead.   

Later, you will learn grammatical constructions based on _ventus, cursus_, and so forth, but don't worry about that now.

(Actually, in many dictionaries the fourth principal part has the form _ventum, cursum_, etc. This is another difference not to worry about.)


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## fragilistic

This makes more sense now... thanks!


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## virgilio

fragilistic,
            And don't forget that all participles are adjectives and not verbs. They are derived from verbs, of course, in the kind of way orange juice is derived from oranges.
Being adjectives they can only have any meaning, if they 'agree' with some substantive and that substantive will dictate which ending they have:
e.g.
imperatores heri ab consulibus laudatos laudemus.
Let us praise the having-been-praised yesterday by the consuls (type) commanders.

Scipionis matrem domo exituram vidimus.
We saw the going-to-go-out from the house (type) mother of Scipio.

Hope this helps.
Best wishes
Virgilio


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## fragilistic

Virgilio-
It does help. (The explanation, that is.) The latin sentences make sense as well. The translations, however, seem a bit odd. I don't exactly understand it - must the participles translate into English so awkardly?


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## virgilio

fragilistic, 
             One thing that I have learned over decades of learning and teaching foreign languages is the ability to *think* in my head the sort of odd, literal translations above, which you refer to.
Remember that, when you set out to learn a foreign language, you are setting out to do something to yourself - to your mind - and not to the language.
If you allow your mind to dwell in this half-way stage between the target language and your own, after a short while you will find that these odd, literal translations help you more quickly to comprehend the target language than if you go straight from the target language to modern idiomatic English.
In your head always translate *literally*, as in the examples I have suggested above and only worry about  good English, if someone asks you for a translation.
The longer you let your mind dwell in this half-way world, the more 'Latin' your thinking will become,

Hope this helps
Best wishes
Virgilio


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## fragilistic

(I should have been more patient. I went back to studying yesterday and a few chapters later future active participles were explained!)

Thanks for the advice... I like the idea of this "half-way world!" Nevertheless, when I take my test at the end of the summer to prove I have actually learned something about Latin, I don't think the prof will be as impressed by it as I am. So, would you agree that these translations will also work for the future active participles:

likely to…
intending to…
determined to…
on the point of … -ing


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## virgilio

fragilistic,
             Oh when you write for the prof. you have to dress it up in idiomatic English but you should never let education get in the way of learning.
As you are - I presume - a native English speaker, perhaps the following tips will help on translating Latin participles literally (for the half-way world of the mind):
All participles in English end in "-ing" and if the translation of a participle runs to several words - which it often must - the first of those words must end in "-ing".
e.g. (for the four Latin participles of a non-deponent verb e.g."scribere")
(1) present active (scribens, scribentis) -writing
(2) present passive (scribendus, -a, -um) - being written
(3) perfect passive (scriptus, -a, -um) - having been written
(4) future active (scripturus, -a, -um)  - going to write

(1)  Scipio domum intrans fratrem epistulam scribentem invenit.
The entering-the-house Scipio came upon his writing-a-letter brother.
(Observe that the traditional position of English adjectives (*before* their substantives) is always preserved in the 'half-way' world - except in the case of the present passive participle, - the so-called 'gerundive' participle - when the participle is translated immediately *after* its substantive)

(2) Laelius multum tempus in scribendis epistulis conterit.
Laelius spends much time in letters-being-written.

(3) heri scriptam epistulam hodie Caesari dedi.
I gave today to Caesar the having-been-written yesterday letter.

(4) Orbilius filios in hortum epistulas scripturos exire jussit.
Orbilius bade his going-to-write letters sons to go out into the garden.
 (5) Orbilius filios in hortum ad epistulas scribendas exire jussit
 .
Orbilius bade his sons go out into the garden towards-letters-being-written,
 The meaning in each case ought to be plain; only the style needs to be altered for the prof. - a simple task surely for a native English speaker!.

Hope this helps a bit more. 
Best wishes
Virgilio


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## fragilistic

Wow! Thank you so much for these examples - they help a lot.  I'm sorry to have taken so long to respond; I've been in California and wasn't able to log on at all.
I think you've answered all of my questions about participles! (hopefully.)


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## virgilio

fragilistic,
             Thank you for your kind words. Remember the real Latin happens in your head; what you write for the prof. is just proof (for him) that you've understood it. That done, always go back in your head to the 'half-way' language (English words married to Latin idioms). Much more entertaining!

With best wishes
Virgilio


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