# FR: Tu lui en as acheté(s) (de(s) nouveau(x)) - pronom & accord



## Thomas1

Tu as acheté de nouveaux disques à ton frère pour son anniversaire.

Je deux questions quant à cette question :
Pourquoi le _de_ avant nouveaux disques n’a pas de _s_ ?
Est-ce que c'est à cause de l'adjectif que précede le substantif ?


Comment peut-on reécriver cette question en remplaçant les parties soulignées ?
Mon essai :
Tu les lui as acheté de nouveaux pour son anniversaire ?

Merci d’avance,
Thomas


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## bloomiegirl

Thomas1 said:


> Tu as acheté de nouveaux disques à ton frère pour son anniversaire.
> 
> Pourquoi le _de_ avant nouveaux disques n’a pas de _s_ ?
> Est-ce que c'est à cause de l'adjectif *qui* préc*è*de le substantif ?


Je crois que oui.



> Tu les lui as acheté de nouveaux pour son anniversaire ?


1. Je crois que "acheter de nouveau" = acheter encore une fois. Ici, ce sont les disques qui sont nouveaux.
2. Je crois qu'on remplace "de nouveau disques" par "en".

Donc je propose: Tu lui en as acheté pour son anniversaire.

(Est-ce que les français sont d'accord?)


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## marget

The answer to your first question is yes. As for your second question, I don't think one would replace just the underlined word "disques". If you wanted to say that, you would be emphasizing "disques" as opposed to other things, which doesn't seem to make sense to me.


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## Thomas1

La phrase que j'ai donnée dans ma première post est exactement la même comme dans l'exercise que je faissais. Au debut j'ai pensé comme bloomiegirl que la partie «de nouveaux disques» est cela ce que doit être remplacé par un pronom mais l'instuction dit «les groupes soulignés».

Tom


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## marget

bloomiegirl said:


> 1. Je crois que "acheter de nouveau" = acheter encore une fois. Ici, ce sont les disques qui sont nouveaux.
> 2. Je crois qu'on remplace "de nouveau disques" par "en".
> 
> Donc je propose: Tu lui en as acheté pour son anniversaire.
> 
> (Est-ce que les français sont d'accord?)


 Je ne suis pas française, mais je suis d'accord.  En effet, je crois que l'on aurait dû souligner 'de nouveaux' aussi.  Peut-être que c'était sous-entendu.


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## jann

If you cannot replace "de nouveaux" because of the requirements of the exercise, then you must find a way to distinguish what is "de nouveau(x)" - the verb _acheter _(meaning thus that you are buying disks again) vs. the disks themselves (which are new):

_Je lui en ai acheté de nouveau pour son anniversaire_ = _je lui en ai *racheté* pour son anniversaire

Je lui en ai acheté *des* nouveaux pour son anniversaire_ -->  Here, it is the disks that are new.
Since _nouveaux_ no longer precedes the noun it modifies, you may use "des" instead of "de."


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## micka

Il me semble qu'il faut un "s" au verbe "acheter":
"Je lui en ai acheté*s* de(s) nouveaux pour son anniversaire"


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## jann

> "Je lui en ai acheté*s*  de(s) nouveaux pour son anniversaire"


No, I'm sorry.   There is no agreement with the preceding COD pronoun _en._


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## micka

Actually, both are possible ( Accord du participe passé précédé de en ). 


> Lorsque le complément d'objet  direct est le pronom personnel "*en*", le participe passé  peut être accordé ou laissé invariable.
> 
> _Voyez ces fruits, en  avez-vous mangé?
> Voyez ces fruits, en avez-vous mangés?_​  Dans le premier exemple, "*en*"  n'est pas senti comme un pluriel. Il représente plutôt une  substance "massière", presque indivisible, abstraite :  _Des fruits, j'en ai mangé_, c'est la "substance  fruit" qui est mangée.
> Dans le second exemple, "*en*"  représente les fruits et plus spécialement "tant de fruits  mangés".
> On pourra se passer  avantageusement de ces finesses et laisser le participe passé *toujours  invariable* lorsque l'objet direct placé avant est le pronom  "*en*". Cette règle est valable même si "*en*"  est associé à un adverbe de quantité (_Des films, j'en ai  beaucoup vu_).



And according to this rule, we could agree the past participle.
Although I agree with you, it's easier always not to agree the past participle when there is "en".
As we know there are several disks, it would be better to agree the past participle.


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## jann

Interesting!    I didn't know that both were possible, but Le Grevisse confirms […].
Still, I don't know that I would go so far as to say that "it would be better" to make the past participle agree.  Le Grevisse seems to indicate that non-agreement is standard, but that agreement can be acceptable.

_A savoir_, the majority of French teachers in the US will mark it incorrect when you make the past participle agree with preceding _en_ in the _passé composé_.  This is not to say we should write according to what they say, but it does mean that the French student should be prepared to cite Le Grevisse to defend his choice if he opts for agreement with _en_.


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## micka

jann said:


> Interesting!  I didn't know that both were possible, but Le Grevisse confirms […].
> Still, I don't know that I would go so far as to say that "it would be better" to make the past participle agree. Le Grevisse seems to indicate that non-agreement is standard, but that agreement can be acceptable.


 I said "it would be better" because in this case, we are sure that there are several discs, but you're right, better not to agree it. It makes everything easier, french grammar is already enough complicated, isn't it ?



jann said:


> _A savoir_, the majority of French teachers in the US will mark it incorrect when you make the past participle agree with preceding _en_ in the _passé composé_. This is not to say we should write according to what they say, but it does mean that the French student should be prepared to cite Le Grevisse to defend his choice if he opts for agreement with _en_.


 Every American (among others) students should print the rule as to take it out when needed


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## marget

Any way we look at it, the original sentence has an error.  I still think that de nouveaux should simply be underlined alon with the other words.  

Tu as acheté de nouveaux disques à ton frère pour son anniversaire.


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## Punky Zoé

I can't see what bothers you, Marget, about nouveaux. Nouveaux can't be replaced here, then why would you want it be underlined ?

EDIT: I now understand your question, but en could as well replace disques, or nouveaux disques...


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## geostan

marget said:


> Any way we look at it, the original sentence has an error.  I still think that de nouveaux should simply be underlined alon with the other words.
> 
> Tu as acheté de nouveaux disques à ton frère pour son anniversaire.



Language exercises are often strange. Given that, however,  I think these are the two possibilities:

Tu as acheté de nouveaux disques à ton frère pour son anniversaire.

Tu lui en as acheté de nouveaux.  [I would not use des; the noun is still understood after nouveaux.]

Tu as acheté de nouveaux disques à ton frère pour son anniversaire.

Tu lui en as acheté.

For Jann. Often when the referent precedes en, the agreement is allowed. Personally, I don't think the quoted example in the link is as common as some others. For instance, when an adverb of quantity precedes en, the agreement is often made, but it is still optional.  The one that comes to mind is:

Combien en avez-vous acheté(s)?

But for learners of French, these are niceties and are not nor should they be taught.

Cheers!


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## trench feature

Would it be possible to use _des _with nouveaux since the adjective is now taking the place of the noun?


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## Punky Zoé

IMHO, both de nouveaux and des nouveaux are acceptable.


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## itka

trench feature said:


> Would it be possible to use _des _with nouveaux since the adjective is now taking the place of the noun?



_"Je lui en ai acheté de nouveau. Et des nouveaux, cette fois !"_


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## geostan

Punky Zoé said:


> IMHO, bote de nouveaux and des nouveaux are acceptable.



I think you're bringing up another issue. Assuming that you said "de nouveaux disques," then replacing disques with "en" should still leave you with "de nouveaux."

If, on the other hand, you said "des nouveaux disques [which some people might say], then I would use "des nouveaux" having replaced disques with "en."

But if you started with de nouveaux disques, I would not change de to des simply because I replaced disques with "en."

The other issue that I alluded to is a complex one involving an evolving structure and not really part of the current discussion.

Qu'en penses-tu?


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## Punky Zoé

I agree with you, you can use de or des in "j'ai acheté de/des nouveaux disques" and in the 'short' form with prepositions too, but there is no reason for changing de in des or des in de while changing de form of the sentence.

About the use of de rather than des, maybe there is, sometimes, a slight nuance.
To remain with the disques, I would say :
j'ai acheté des nouveaux disques = it is not so regular
j'ai acheté de nouveaux disques  = there are novelties in my collection of discs


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