# FR: the second (third, etc.) + superlative adjective



## DesEsseintes

Bonjour a tous et a toutes,

Je cherche la bonne facon de dire "second-biggest" dans le contexte suivant: 

"Rhone-Alpes is the second-biggest region in France."  

Je crois que, pour le superlatif des adjectifs, l'article defini s'accorde en genre et en nombre avec le nom qu'il qualifie, et que l'adjectif reste a sa place normale.  Donc, je traduirai cette phrase de la maniere suivante:

"Rhone-Alpes est la deuxieme plus grande region de France."

Est-ce que j'ai raison?  Merci,

DesEsseintes

*Moderator note:* multiple threads merged to create this one.


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## Hardigasp

C'est parfait!


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## sweadle

Hi, I am trying to translate: 
  France is the biggest country in Western Europe, and the fifth biggest on the continent after Russia, Greenland, Turkey and the Ukraine.



My attempt:


    La France constitue le plus grand pays qui se situe en Europe de l’Ouest, *et, en superficie,  le cinquième pays au continent* après la Russie, le Groenland, l’Ukraine et la Turquie.
  Is that an accurate way to translate the fifth biggest? I got a little confused with the sentence structure.

Merci d'avance


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## Gil

Exemple:


> une éventuelle prolifération d'algues bleues dans le cinquième plus grand lac du pays,


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## temple09

Hi,

I have been trying to confirm how best to express comparative levels of positions (the second best, the third biggest, the fourth quickest etc), and found that WR forums seem to offer a couple of different constructions for this. Two examples include -

La deuxième plus grande banque d'Estonie.
La deuxième personne la plus fière dans la salle.

I asked my French friend if these were correct (the answer was "oui"). I asked her if the construction would work the other way round (La banque la deuxième plus grande d'Estonie/La deuxième plus fière personne dans la salle) and her answer was "Non. Mais je sais pas pourquoi".
Does anyone else know, and could you possibly explain it to a rather confused person (la personne la deuxième plus perdu du forum?)
Merci


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## Oddmania

Hi,

I agree with your friend. I think it's due to the fact that some adjectives come before the noun they qualify, while some others come after it.

We say _Une grande banque_, but _Une personne fière / perdue._


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## Lune bleue

I'm wondering too actually. I  agree with the first sentence, but for the second I would have said : "la deuxième personne la plus fière dans la salle".


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## temple09

Lune bleue said:


> I'm wondering too actually. I  agree with the first sentence, but for the second I would have said : "la deuxième personne la plus fière dans la salle".



Gosh, what a fool I am. That's exactly what I meant to type, so I have changed the original to avoid confusion.
Although the confusion remains that the first example is deuxième + adj and the second is deuxième + noun. But Oddmania's idea of it being due to certain adjectives coming before the noun makes sense.
So one would say -
La deuxième plus grande/belle/vieille personne
But one would say -
La deuxième personne la plus bête/optimiste/fatigue
And not vice-versa


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## Oddmania

temple09 said:


> Gosh, what a fool I am. That's exactly what I meant to type, so I have changed the original to avoid confusion.
> Although the confusion remains that the first example is deuxième + adj and the second is deuxième + noun. But Oddmania's idea of it being due to certain adjectives coming before the noun makes sense.
> So one would say -
> La deuxième plus grande/belle/vieille personne
> But one would say -
> La deuxième personne la plus bête/optimiste/fatigue
> And not vice-versa



Right 

You might come across the second structure even with an adjective that usually comes before the noun, because it _is _possible to move a pre-modifying adjectives after the noun (_Une personne grande, une personne vieille_, etc. It sounds a little more emphatic), even though it's uncommon.

 On the other hand, you definitely can't use the first structure with a post-modifying adjective (_Une fatiguée personne,_ etc. )


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## Maître Capello

As a matter of fact, neither sentence is correct. They are anglicisms (see also this page from BDL). It doesn't make sense in French to talk about a second (or third, etc.) superlative since, by definition, superlatives are qualifying a unique person or thing. By the way, strictly speaking, _la deuxième plus grande banque d'Estonie_ would imply that there are actually two banks in Estonia that are the biggest, hence that they are of equal size and share the first rank.

In the first example, you should simply say:

_la deuxième banque d'Estonie_

I however can't find a good solution for the second one: 

_la personne la plus fière dans la salle après X_ (X being the proudest person in the room)
_la deuxième personne dans la salle en matière de fierté_


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## temple09

Thank you MC.
I have heard that neither sentence is grammatically correct, although I believe it is a commonly made "fault".
You mention that one would be better off saying 

_la deuxième banque d'Estonie
la deuxième personne dans la salle en matière de fierté
_
But would these uses of "deuxième" without any reference, suggest that one is referring to the second to arrive (especially the bank). I know that the two languages have many differences, but certainly in English - if one said "Estonia's second bank" it would imply that it was the second bank to come into existence is Estonia, and not that it was the second biggest. The literal translation of the proud example would be equally confusing.
Could these sentences be confused to mean other things in French as well? (i.e. if I really wanted to avoid any confusion, might I be better off using the "fault"?)


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## Maître Capello

I don't think those sentences are confusing in French. It may however be a question of context.


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## temple09

Maître Capello said:


> I don't think those sentences are confusing in French. It may however be a question of context.



So, without meaning to stray off the subject, and just so that I fully understand, how would you say "Estonia's second bank" (in terms of what that sentence means in English - the one that came after the original bank)?


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## Maître Capello

In that case I'd say, _la deuxième banque d'Estonie *à avoir été créée*_. You may also add an adverb, e.g., _*chronologiquement* la deuxième banque d'Estonie_.

Anyway, if you want to avoid any ambiguity for the original meaning, you can say something like, _la deuxième banque d'Estonie *en taille*_.


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## Kelly B

(The discussion has focused on best/biggest rather than smallest/worst, but since the title doesn't specify, I'll just note that penultième and avant-dernier do exist for the latter, and even anti-penultième for the one before that.)


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## Maître Capello

Kelly B said:


> I'll just note that penultième and avant-dernier do exist for the latter, and even anti-penultième for the one before that.


Well, those words do exist, but just like _deuxième_ or _troisième_, they cannot be used with superlative adjectives in French.

In other words, _la deuxième plus grande banque_  and _l'avant-dernière plus grande banque_  are equally incorrect.


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