# Hurricane Katrina Aftermath



## mzsweeett

Ok, so I have scanned thru the different threads on how people are shooting and looting and we are debating on the level of those crimes and punishments..... but I have another question for you all here....

I notice.... all the time...... that when another country has a disaster or problem..... the US always goes in running.... maybe not always asked for....... but we do help out a lot. If we oursleves the civies dont go in..... then a lot send money and other sorts of donations..... I'd like to know why after so many days...... has no one come to help us??? Is the US deemed so high up that we do not need assistance?? Or have we managed to piss off the whole world so badly that we are being thumbed??? I just have not seen anything on the news or the net about any foreign aid...... oh I'm sorry the leader from Argentina said he would help sell gasolne to hospitals, churches and schools..... it's a nice enough thought but .....sorry that doesnt really help anyone in immediate need... they do not need it.... the ones who need the help are the ones sitting in a quagmire of hell on earth!!!

Excuse my sarcasm please, but I am very frsutrated at the apparent lack of concern. If anyone knows anything that I have missed then please tell me and I'd like to know the amount (or lack) of concern here.....

Awaiting your responses,

Sweet T.


----------



## Raskolnikov

I've just heard that Hugo Chávez (president of Venezuela) will donate 1,000,000 dollars, Hugo Chávez, I do not Know if you heard on the news, that a person, a public person said something like this  I'm not quoting cuz I can't literally remember how he said it, ok he said something like this, "We (as a country U.S.) should KILL Hugo Chávez...." but, Chávez said that that million will be given if the U.S. stop his oil policy (meaning, wanting all for it), he did not even said something about his killing....although the U.S. has gained more general dislike in the hole globe, there will be always someone with good will, sometimes is the person least expected.(ok, with Chávez is more like a negotiation, but fair I think)


----------



## BasedowLives

something to think about...

CNN reports that the tsunami tradgedy took about 118,000 lives.  i hate to compare tradgedies, but well...mathematically it's 59 times worse than what happened in lousiana.

i'm not justifying lack of aid though.


----------



## Phryne

BasedowLives said:
			
		

> something to think about...
> 
> CNN reports that the tsunami tradgedy took about 118,000 lives. i hate to compare tradgedies, but well...mathematically it's 59 times worse than what happened in lousiana.
> 
> i'm not justifying lack of aid though.


 I agree, aid is still nedeed but  you may also add that the tsunami affected all underdeveloped countries that already had very serious problems. To me there's a big difference when tragedy happens in the wealthiest country in the world or in some of the poorest.


----------



## panjandrum

I would not estimate casualties. 
I remember the early casualty figures from the tsunami.
Initially '00s, after 24 hours, '000s, 72 hours, '0,000s - much later before anything like the final figure became known.
There is some shock that this has been so overwhelming for you. As a radio commentator said this morning on BBC, "We think because it is America it will be different - it isn't."
The heart of the world has come to your aid before.
It will again.


----------



## GenJen54

> Originally posted by *MZSweeett*Is the US deemed so high up that we do not need assistance?? Or have we managed to piss off the whole world so badly that we are being thumbed???



This is a very engaging question, MZ, and one which will I'm sure draw a multitude of opinions. I, too, have been wondering about this. 

I believe both of the points you brought up are very valid.  I think there is a perception that the US is a country of "haves" and therefore, does not need the same kind of assistance as do other countries when facing similar crises.  I would also agree that US administrations, especially including our current Administration, have done little to endear ourselves to the world at large, in particular, Europe (research Germany's most recent political "response" to this crisis). 

There is a third cog in this wheel, however, that we need to look at.  The initial aftermath was that New Orleans had survived relatively in tact.  It was not until twenty-four hours after Katrina had passed, when the levees broke and the city started to flood, did the REAL crisis start to unfold.  NO ONE anticipated the level of disaster that is now there. 

Word is just starting to spread across the world about how bad this disaster has become.  I am confident our worldly neighbors will do what they deem appropriate in terms of assistance. I do not necessarily expect any and every country we have ever helped to jump to our aid.  Many cannot afford to do so.  But, certainly offers of assistance would go a long way in reciprocal goodwill.


----------



## ILT

Phryne said:
			
		

> I agree, aid is still nedeed but you may also add that the tsunami affected all underdeveloped countries that already had very serious problems. To me there's a big difference when tragedy happens in the wealthiest country in the world or in some of the poorest.



There are some more things to consider, I think: the tsunami was unpredictable, there was no way people could prepare for it, the hurricane "gave" notice in advance.

Also, the tsunami hit poor countries that still struggle to recover, as I see it, as an outsider, the US government has sufficient resources to evacuate the whole city in time. A person told me yesterday, that he can understand that some people didn't want to leave, but couldn't understand hospitals not having sufficient supplies or not evacuating all patients in advance.

As for aid, I think there's aid in its way, but Bush being on a 6-week vacation while this tragedy happened has not helped. I heard on the news that Bush just cut his vacation short two days, and it was yesterday, and the images of him I saw today were of him with his dog. I guess that if he doesn't seem worried, the rest of the world feels they shouldn't worry either. I don't understand, I have to watch CNN to get the full picture.

The US has helped a lot before, it will receive help this time, it's on its way.


----------



## cuchuflete

Just listened to an NPR interview with a BBC reporter who spent the day in New Orleans.
First, things are very, very bad there.  Much worse than internet and press reports tell us, according to what this reporter had to way.  Sounded like the aftermath of floods in Bangladesh.

Next..he was asked how he would report this in Britain and other countries.  He stressed the points already made here.  The US is tremendously wealthy, has infrastructure etc.  Thus the rest of the world, and most Americans, just expect that we can deal with it.  Throw enough evacuation buses into action, truck and fly in all the needed food, medicine, water, supplies, etc.

Here's the really scary thing.  This is the first major disaster since 9-11.  We have supposedly built up lots of government..national, state, local...infrastructure to deal with emergencies.  We had lots of prior warning for this one, unlike for a terrorist attack.   Yet there are tens of thousands of people stranded, sick, without food or water. This is a horrible natural disaster, a terrifying human tragedy, and a startling example of government incompetence!

Maybe W assigned the same people to plan disaster relief as he put on the last war planning project.

It's shameful.


----------



## lauranazario

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> I would also agree that US administrations, especially including our current Administration, have done little to endear ourselves to the world at large, in particular, Europe (research Germany's most recent political "response" to this crisis).


It speaks very poorly of the values of a contemporary society when one reserves his/her compassion and mourning for those who have "endeared themselves" to a given country!!! 
*A human life is a human life, suffering is sufferring, loss is loss... ANYWHERE AND EVERYWHERE in this planet*.

LN


----------



## mzsweeett

Ok, I see where I did not make myself clear.

I understand that the *command* not *request* was given for _*ALL*_ to evacuate.... this is something that I feel very strongly about.  I have little pity for those who _*were able*_ to leave and _*did not*_. The fact that it was so belittled appalls me.... how anyone could think that a storm of that size was just going give minimal damage and that a city below sea level would not flood..... is beyond me. And the coastal areas of Mississippi and Georgia too.... they knew they were in a path of it and they should have all left too. Areas were made availabe.....there are families and friends and resources for those who look for it.

My question comes to the point of now the evacuation centers need evacuating... and hospitals.... rescuers and officals are being shot at..... my question is this..... as the situation gets worse there is no sign of any aid coming to us. 

It is the officals and the service workers who need help getting the place in order and also getting necessary supplies to those who need it. This is my concern. I know the US is a very rich country but sometimes rich countries need help too.

Many people are not in the position to go down there and help.... that is what is really needed..... actual living people with determined minds helping others to get back to safety...... then all the pieces can start to be put back and get the city put back into some form of order.

So are we still in the position that the US must fend for itself?? I know that after all the aid we have sent forth to other countries...... it would disgust me to think that we are totally alone in our crisis......

Thanks for reading and responding.... I await many more.....

Sweet T


----------



## GenJen54

> Originally posted by *Cuchuflete*Yet there are tens of thousands of people stranded, sick, without food or water. This is a horrible natural disaster, a terrifying human tragedy, and a startling example of government incompetence!


 
I could not agree with you more. I saw an interview with our FEMA director on one either MSNBC or CNN yesterday. He said that when he took over the post two years ago, FEMA implemented a "worst scenario" (natural) disaster plan. First on their list of potential disasters was, and I quote "... a Cat 5 taking a direct hit at New Orleans." He further stated that last year, his "team" went through a mock execution of their recovery plan. I guess it's time that plan was put into action. Thus far, I have not seen anything in terms of S&R that seems planned, not to mention organized. 

Once again, the US faces crisis, and once again, a knee-jerk reaction to the crisis seems to be the only response our government understands. 

I really am so torn, I don't know what to be more mad about: my own government's ineptitude at being able to fully anticipate any possible crisis (including civil unrest), or the yet-to-be realized support of foreign governments.


----------



## mzsweeett

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> I could not agree with you more. I saw an interview with our FEMA director on one either MSNBC or CNN yesterday. He said that when he took over the post two years ago, FEMA implemented a "worst scenario" (natural) disaster plan. First on their list of potential disasters was, and I quote "... a Cat 5 taking a direct hit at New Orleans." He further stated that last year, his "team" went through a mock execution of their recovery plan. I guess it's time that plan was put into action. Thus far, I have not seen anything in terms of S&R that seems planned, not to mention organized.
> 
> Once again, the US faces crisis, and once again, a knee-jerk reaction to the crisis seems to be the only response our government understands.
> 
> _* I really am so torn, I don't know what to be more mad about: my own government's ineptitude at being able to fully anticipate any possible crisis (including civil unrest), or the yet-to-be realized support of foreign governments.*_


Thank you Gen!!
You put very well in your last statements what my heart feels. My heart aches for those down there. It really does. I know people down there... and I pray that they are all OK. Haven't heard anything yet..... but hope to soon.

Hugs abound,

Sweet T.


----------



## cuchuflete

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> I could not agree with you more. I saw an interview with our FEMA director on one either MSNBC or CNN yesterday. He said that when he took over the post two years ago, FEMA implemented a "worst scenario" (natural) disaster plan. First on their list of potential disasters was, and I quote "... a Cat 5 taking a direct hit at New Orleans." He further stated that last year, his "team" went through a mock execution of their recovery plan. I guess it's time that plan was put into action. Thus far, I have not seen anything in terms of S&R that seems planned, not to mention organized.
> 
> Once again, the US faces crisis, and once again, a knee-jerk reaction to the crisis seems to be the only response our government understands.
> 
> I really am so torn, I don't know what to be more mad about: my own government's ineptitude at being able to fully anticipate any possible crisis (including civil unrest), or the yet-to-be realized support of foreign governments.



GenJen,

I hate finding the thoughts running around in my head, and hope I'm wrong, but........

Bush and Cía. are slow and inept to come to the rescue of whom?

--The *poorest* people in a 
--major *urban* center of a state that has historically voted for
--*democrats, *and I'm guessing that many of them are
--*black *and
--*hispanic

*I cannot but help wonder if the response would be so slow and inept if a natural disaster, say tornadoes or floods, hit wealthy suburbs of Atlanta.


----------



## GenJen54

> Originally posted by *Cuchuflete*
> Bush and Cía. are slow and inept to come to the rescue of whom?
> 
> --The poorest people in a
> --major urban center of a state that has historically voted for
> --democrats, and I'm guessing that many of them are
> --black and
> --hispanic
> 
> I cannot but help wonder if the response would be so slow and inept if a natural disaster, say tornadoes or floods, hit wealthy suburbs of Atlanta.


This thought had absolutely occurred to me. I simply chose not to post it, feeling that if I put it into written words, I would be forced to see what I had internalized to be the inevitable and sad truth. I live in a "red state" where "W" bumperstickers can be found on _at least every other_ vehicle. The sentiments that I have heard expressed, even by members of my own family, with regard to what New Orleans' citizens are going through, have angered me to the point of tears. 

My city has lived through two MAJOR (international newsworthy) disasters in the past decade. The first was an act of domestic "terrorism." The second, a major natural disaster. In both cases, the government response was swift and strong. Clinton was President.

Sweet T., 

If you would look at the MSNBC website, you will see an article that discusses how _*foreign aid has been offered. Bush refused assistance from Russia. Citgo (a Venezuelan oil company) has offered $1,000,000. Other aid has been offered. Up to this point, however, Bush has not accepted any. 

Condoleeza Rice has stated "no assistance will be refused." However, Bush himself rebuffed that, apparently reporting the following to ABC news: 

(Quote by Bush) 
“I’m not expecting much from foreign nations because we hadn’t asked for it. I do expect a lot of sympathy and perhaps some will send cash dollars. But this country’s going to rise up and take care of it.”
*_ 
As I listen to NPR now, I hear the following: Corpses are in the street. People (young infants, the elderly and infirm) who survived the initial blow, are now dying of disease and dehydration. 

Bush's egotism and arrogance, I'm afraid, will only cost us more.


----------



## panjandrum

Ouch - you make it difficult for us.
It seems, from tonight's BBC coverage of reports from the US, that your greatest need is gasoline........
So Europe will ship gas to the US, the greatest gas-guzzling nation in the world.
I don't recall that being a priority in SE Asia...


----------



## Kelly B

One reason the government is slow to respond is here: http://www.wdsu.com/news/4916148/detail.html
Found on the National Guard website: "During peacetime, the Governor, through the State Adjutant General, commands the Guard forces. The Governor can call the Guard into action during local or statewide emergencies, such as storms, drought, and civil disturbances, to name a few."
That's what Homeland Security, and the National Guard, should be all about, but unfortunately, they're all on rotating duty to the middle East. And guess what the knowledge of that has done to recruitment of good people who would otherwise be proud and happy to serve, but want to do it right here?


----------



## GenJen54

> Originally posted by *Kelly B*
> That's what Homeland Security, and the National Guard, should be all about, but unfortunately, they're all on rotating duty to the middle East.



I heard on either CNN or MSNBC this morning that the U.S. is planning to "pull" those troops from Iraq whose families have been affected by this disaster.


----------



## Kelly B

My point isn't that they are far from home while their families suffer (which is bad enough) but that their mission as National Guardsmen should have been right here fixing levees and pumping systems (many are engineer units) and rescuing people, because as far as I know, the Congress has not declared war. The Governor of a state in crisis should have access to many more units of Guard troops than are currently available here. Units are being called in from all over the country now to help, but it sure would have been quicker if they had been in Louisiana and Mississippi to start with.

The New Orleans levees and pumping stations could have been blown up by an act of terrorism, instead of knocked out by a storm surge. The situation would have been equivalent, except for the number of stranded or dead. We are not ready, and in my opinion, part of that failure of readiness is because many of our first responders are NOT HERE. (Not yelling at you. Just frustrated!)


----------



## cuchuflete

Competent decision making?



> National Guard: Forces available for hurricane duty
> By The Associated Press
> 
> WASHINGTON — Though thousands of National Guard personnel from Louisiana and Mississippi are serving in Iraq, officials say more than enough personnel were available for disaster duty Monday as Hurricane Katrina slammed ashore.
> 
> “Only about half of available forces are mobilized in Louisiana and forces are available from neighboring states if needed,” said Lt. Col. Mike Milord, a spokesman at National Guard headquarters outside Washington.
> 
> Some 3,500 Army National Guardsmen from Louisiana were deployed to help hurricane victims and another 3,000 were on standby.
> 
> About 3,000 members of Louisiana’s 256th Combat Brigade already are in Iraq.




To be fair, that was Monday, though the news report has today's date on it.
I don't know current mobilization status.


----------



## cuchuflete

more.... glad to know that 'security is a concern'.





> By LARA JAKES JORDAN, Associated Press Writer _1 hour,  21 minutes ago_
> 
> 
> WASHINGTON -        Homeland Security Secretary        Michael Chertoff said Thursday that 1,400 National Guard troops per day are being sent in to control looting and lawlessness in New Orleans, quadrupling the regular police force in the city by the weekend.
> 
> Already, 2,800 National Guardsmen are in the city to help local police since Hurricane Katrina produced devastating floods in New Orleans, Chertoff said at a news conference with Attorney General Alberto Gonzales. Another 1,400 Guard troops and military police units are being added daily, he said.
> 
> "Security is a concern," Gonzales said. "It is a priority."


----------



## panjandrum

According to BBC/CNN there has been no planning for this situation.
New Orleans defences were designed for a Cat 3 hurricane.
There were no contingency plans to deal with breach of the levees, or the consequences of this.
There were no plans for emergency repair of the levees.

Tonight's CNN/BBC presents a huge discontinuity between apparently in-control official statements and chaos and anarchy on the ground.


----------



## Kelly B

It isn't as though nobody knew what could happen.

Long, but interesting, article from Civil Engineering Mag, 2003: http://www.pubs.asce.org/ceonline/ceonline03/0603feat.html

"If a lingering category 3 storm—or a stronger storm, say, category 4 or 5—were to hit the city, much of New Orleans could find itself under more than 20 ft (6 m) of water....
...evacuating could be difficult. Experts say close to 400,000 people could be stranded in the city. There are an estimated 100,000 people without easy access to automobiles, and those who can drive may not be able to do so. During Hurricane Andrew, interstates throughout the South were brought to a standstill because simultaneous evacuations were taking place in several states. The only major planning improvement since then has been the decision to keep traffic away from the coast on both sides of evacuation routes. Complicating the difficulty in New Orleans is the fact that each of the city’s three major evacuation routes is over or near water... during a storm of category 5, Interstate 10... could be covered by more than 5 ft (1.5 m) of water."

Yet in a news article of June 6, 2005: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4200/is_20050606/ai_n14657367
"New Orleans district of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers is bracing for a record $71.2 million reduction in federal funding....The cuts mean major hurricane and flood protection projects will not be awarded to local engineering firms. Also, a study to determine ways to protect the region from a Category 5 hurricane has been shelved for now."

Oooops.


----------



## Everness

Bush To Head New Orleans Rescue- Weren't Things Bad Enough? 


http://www.unconfirmedsources.com/index.php?itemid=1157


----------



## cuchuflete

a few minutes ago...



> Around the corner, an elderly woman lay dead in her wheelchair, covered up by a blanket, and another body lay beside her wrapped in a sheet.
> 
> "I don't treat my dog like that," 47-year-old Daniel Edwards said as he pointed at the woman in the wheelchair.
> 
> "You can do everything for other countries, but you can't do nothing for your own people," he added. "You can go overseas with the military, but you can't get them down here."


 source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050902/ap_on_re_us/hurricane_katrina


----------



## cuchuflete

Why would another nation contribute disaster relief to a country obviously incapable of putting massive resources to good use?


----------



## modgirl

I watch the boob tube only when earth-shattering events occur. I turned on the dust-ridden electronic box when we were attacked on 11 September 2001, and for some unknown reason, I turned it on tonight.

I literally had my checkbook out to write a check to the Red Cross. And then, I espied the ugliest sight. An obese woman in New Orleans was squealing at the camera, "I ain't 'ad no food or wadder, and it's YOUR fault. This ^%$#@! government ain't doin' nuttin' to help me and my fam-lee. I'm in American, and I dee-MAND to be hepped." (sic)

I closed the checkbook. Yes, the moral part of me will probably send some money to the Red Cross. But, I was so absolutely turned off that I hoped that she got what she deserved: nothing.

If she made a plea for help, only a hard-hearted person could deny. But she didn't ask. She* demanded.* Part of me realizes that I have no idea how I'd react in a similar circumstance. Yet, I don't recall any tsunami victims *demanding* to be helped. I saw the woman's attitude as a cancer on the back of a very liberal government that's been building since WWII. Always rely on your government for support. Ask not what you can do for your country, but demand what your country *owes* you.

If anyone outside the US saw the same woman, it will be a miracle if New Orleans receives any aid. And lest we not forget the people who shot at the rescuers. We've created a self-absorbed, overly dependent group of people who have absolutely no idea not only how to help themselves but have no idea how to simply be grateful and gracious for what they have been given.

And the birth of the ugly American, whether on a luxurious holiday or in the throes of a disaster, lives on.

(Of course, not all Americans are like this at all. But it's these particular imbeciles who are shown for all the world to see.)


----------



## Nath0811

Kelly B said:
			
		

> It isn't as though nobody knew what could happen.
> 
> Long, but interesting, article from Civil Engineering Mag, 2003: http://www.pubs.asce.org/ceonline/ceonline03/0603feat.html
> 
> Yet in a news article of June 6, 2005: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4200/is_20050606/ai_n14657367
> -snip-
> Also, a study to determine ways to protect the region from a Category 5 hurricane has been shelved for now."
> 
> Oooops.


 
This is very interesting, and vVERY frustrating. It won't be the first time that some danger ispointed out, and yet, government chooses to look in another direction.

I'm vrey much disturbed and angry at the fact that our current politicians didn't fly immediately down, rolled their sleeves up and started to help. Cheney is still vacationing in Wyoming!!! It's shameful - and as much as help would be appreciated -and is needed from around the world because *those ARE innocent people who lost everything*, our country should lead with immediate modele.

By the way, I just came back from a 10-day trip to New Orleans two weeks, ago, and it's heart breaking to realize that this pretty city is just gone. All these people we met during the trip - how many of them are still around? Plus there is (well, was) so much ancient art in NO, galleries, antiques, paintings - oy. I pray for them all - and hope that not only the US, but everyone will start helping out here.


----------



## murena

mzsweeett,


I agree with you, and actually yesterday I was talking with my wife about it, and we were wondering how can the normal citizen provide aid for the disaster. As Laura said, a life is a life, regardless of the economic power of its government. So my question is: do you know how can aid be provided to the victims? Thanks


----------



## modgirl

Nath0811 said:
			
		

> government chooses to look in another direction.


 
How so?  Has the US government refused aid?  

If I'm not mistaken, helicopters that were flown in were *attacked* by *innocent* victims shooting* guns* at them.  How many helicopters shot down are enough for you to feel that the US government really cares?


----------



## Fille

Seriously, How can you for one second think that the rest of the world would be less helpful in their nature than Americans? This is more or less what you are saying in your message. By the way your own armay could help if it wasn't busy elsewhere.


----------



## cuchuflete

Hola Murena,

The Red Cross is one way to help.  Here is another...the link in the middle of this page:  http://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en

un saludo,
Cuchuflete





			
				murena said:
			
		

> mzsweeett,
> 
> 
> I agree with you, and actually yesterday I was talking with my wife about it, and we were wondering how can the normal citizen provide aid for the disaster. As Laura said, a life is a life, regardless of the economic power of its government. So my question is: do you know how can aid be provided to the victims? Thanks


----------



## panjandrum

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Hola Murena,
> 
> The Red Cross is one way to help. Here is another...the link in the middle of this page: http://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en
> 
> un saludo,
> Cuchuflete


?Which link?
I can't see anything new there.


----------



## Helicopta

I’m shocked. Do the American people really think that the world doesn’t care? It’s terrible that anyone should think like that. Of course people are moved by the plight of those in New Orleans. Who couldn’t be? A life is a life and suffering is suffering. You can’t seriously believe that the rest of the world views the suffering of Americans as somehow less important than that of other peoples can you?

I just think the problem with expecting foreign aid is that the USA is widely thought of as having the resources to cope with such a crisis on its own. It’s not that people are unwilling or don’t want to help. It’s far more likely that it never occurred to them that help would be needed.

_Small wonder when your president had this to say..._


> President Bush said the United States had the resources to cover the massive rebuilding costs, and was not looking for foreign aid.
> 
> "I'm not expecting much from foreign nations, because I haven't asked for it. I'm expecting sympathy and maybe some will send cash," he said.
> 
> Source


For those who are looking for ways to help. Try this link.


----------



## panjandrum

Helicopta's quote has given me an idea - how I can make my personal response to the situation.
Over the next few days I will reflect on what my response would have been if this catastrophe had happened somewhere more obviously needy.
Then I will send an appropriate contribution to a third-world charity, including a note of explanation; and I will send a sympathy card to President Bush explaining what I have done.


----------



## GenJen54

> Originally posted by *Panjandrum*
> I will send a sympathy card to President Bush explaining what I have done.



Sadly, I like this idea, Panj. I wish I didn't, but in a way, his policies set us up for this. It's too bad this his second, and by default, last term. I'm only hopeful when mid-term elections come around next year, people will remember this and look to candidates who have the best interests of the _people_, and not the (oil/pharmaceutical/tobacco/insurance, etc. ) industries in mind - and in their pockets.

I heard on my local news this morning about some "refugees" that are being transported to my state. The place where they are being held is asking for in-kind donations of clothing, basic household supplies (towels, etc.). My efforts will be towards them.

I had posted Bush's full quote here (post #14.) Guess it got missed. In short, he outright refused aid from Putin. While Condoleeza Rice made a statement that "any and all aid would be accepted," Bush obviously (as always) has his own agenda.

_“I’m not expecting much from foreign nations because we hadn’t asked for it. I do expect a lot of sympathy and perhaps some will send cash dollars. But this country’s going to rise up and take care of it.”_ - G.W.Bush

I was proud of my country and the way we handled ourselves after my city was attacked. I was proud of my country and the way we handled things after 9/11. At this point in time, I have never been more ashamed of being an American. 

I'll close my comments with one of my favorite quotes.  

It's by Martin Luther King, Jr. 

_ "The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy."

_A quick P.S.  Bush is on TV right now.  He and Mrs. Bush are getting ready to fly down to the affected areas.  Of course, it has already been announced that they will not go to New Orleans._
_


----------



## monay

i really understand your point and your sympathy mzsweeett ... As a Filipino i understand how you feel. We also felt that in someways. specifically we (Filipino) will visit or will work to a different country or nation, DISCRIMINATION is much higher. I dont think and i cant see any reason why some people do that. I wish i have a power and a lot of money to help im just ordinary citizen here,....... im not that reach BUT i can offer my PRAYER to ALL OF YOU.  well... thanks anyhow.... GOOD LUCK GOD BLESS TO THOSE PEOPLE WHO HAVE POWER AND MONEY. and to those people who NEED HELP.  "JUST BELIEVE IN HIM."


----------



## Everness

On occasions like this, Marxism, or at least neo-Marxist class analysis can become an extremely useful tool to read what's going on. America is a stratified society. It is a class-structured society in which the various class levels are arranged in a hierarichical manner. The fault line of class is the most enduring force shaping our lives and society. Katrina is just exposing it so we can all take a look at it. 

http://slate.msn.com/id/2124688/?nav=fix


----------



## Everness

Modgirl, I take issue with your post, especially with your use of the words imbecile or ugly American to describe a desperate victim of a hurricane. 

It's easy to feel offended by the emotional remarks made by an individual who 3 or 4 days after been hit by a deadly hurricane hasn't yet received any help from the government when one is writing from the comfort of one's home with electricity, food, etc. etc. If you are homeless, hungry, etc. etc., anger appropriately takes over, and you demand things because, in this case, the government isn't doing its job. 

If you are black, fat, illiterate, and poor, you have to yell in order to get what white, lean, educated, and richer folks get almost without effort.  



			
				modgirl said:
			
		

> I watch the boob tube only when earth-shattering events occur. I turned on the dust-ridden electronic box when we were attacked on 11 September 2001, and for some unknown reason, I turned it on tonight.
> 
> I literally had my checkbook out to write a check to the Red Cross. And then, I espied the ugliest sight. An obese woman in New Orleans was squealing at the camera, "I ain't 'ad no food or wadder, and it's YOUR fault. This ^%$#@! government ain't doin' nuttin' to help me and my fam-lee. I'm in American, and I dee-MAND to be hepped." (sic)
> 
> I closed the checkbook. Yes, the moral part of me will probably send some money to the Red Cross. But, I was so absolutely turned off that I hoped that she got what she deserved: nothing.
> 
> If she made a plea for help, only a hard-hearted person could deny. But she didn't ask. She* demanded.* Part of me realizes that I have no idea how I'd react in a similar circumstance. Yet, I don't recall any tsunami victims *demanding* to be helped. I saw the woman's attitude as a cancer on the back of a very liberal government that's been building since WWII. Always rely on your government for support. Ask not what you can do for your country, but demand what your country *owes* you.
> 
> If anyone outside the US saw the same woman, it will be a miracle if New Orleans receives any aid. And lest we not forget the people who shot at the rescuers. We've created a self-absorbed, overly dependent group of people who have absolutely no idea not only how to help themselves but have no idea how to simply be grateful and gracious for what they have been given.
> 
> And the birth of the ugly American, whether on a luxurious holiday or in the throes of a disaster, lives on.
> 
> (Of course, not all Americans are like this at all. But it's these particular imbeciles who are shown for all the world to see.)


----------



## ciccia1331

Something to ponder......a similar tragedy (Tsunami in Tailand) occured and the whole world rushed out to help.  Never in any of the news casts did you hear about anyone looting, shooting or any of the sort.

Why is it that a disaster of similar magnitude occurs in the US and the main topic on everyones mind is not "those poor people" but "look at all those horrible people looting and shooting up the town"?

I honestly don't understand what would cause people who are in such devistation,  to think, "hey, now's the chance for me to use my gun and cause as much trouble as i want and not get arrested for it."  honestly, that angers me so much.......the ignorance and lack of respect that people have! Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

and that's all i have to say about that!


----------



## cuchuflete

panjandrum said:
			
		

> ?Which link?
> I can't see anything new there.



Curious...it's the main page for the search site, and includes a link that looks like this to me:



> Donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.


----------



## panjandrum

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Curious...it's the main page for the search site, and includes a link that looks like this to me:


Well, well, well. Now isn't that a really curious thing.
Nope. Nothing in the middle of my screen. Blank. And in case you might imagine that I'm looking at my own Google screen instead - nope - thought of that too. I am _definitely_ looking at the web address you give up the thread a bit.
Perhaps Google are including that link only on screens sent to US IP addresses.
"It" clearly knows I am in the UK - it offers me a link to Google UK.
Can we find out? .. And ask them why?  Do they think somehow asking for donations to a US disaster internationally would not be "good business" for them?


----------



## lely

Sometimes we get angry but we don´t take the time to get really informed. I just read in the news that New times is critizicing Bush for taking so long to respond to the emergency in Louisiana, and Rice just said that we need to receive help from outside, after Bush saying they can do it by themselves.
About other countries helping, Italy offered helicopters and people to come. Venezuela offered money and people. San Salvador offered their help as well, and many others that I don´t remember.
Is important to read not only one source of information, but different sources that have differents points of view.


----------



## panjandrum

Ah, careless of us to assume the President was speaking for the administration and the country 

Sorry, flippancy aside, your point is well made.


----------



## GenJen54

> Originally posted by *Lely*Is important to read not only one source of information, but different sources that have differents points of view.


Hi Lely, 

Welcome to the WR forums!  We're glad to have you here.  

I think we need to put some of this into perspective. 



 Sweet started this thread long before word of "foreign aid" hit the US media air-and/or web-waves.
When word about this topic did come out, the word was that Bush had refused offers from other countries, which, according to the media, is true.
I think Sweet's frustration was centered around the fact that when disasters occur in other countries, we hear about our response to them very quickly. There is an almost immediate "call to action," through either the media, government and/or charitable sources, for people to contribute.

The reaction time of other countries, and their governments, to our crisis, was probably equally as immediate, the problem being, _we_ (as in Americans) simply did not hear about it until about four days after the storm, when it was finally reported in the media.

The bottom line is, other countries are coming to our assistance at this point, it seems via charitable donations to private world wide relief organizations. 

Sri Lanka, one of the countries so completely devestated by the tsunami in December, is among them. You can find an interesting article from Saturday's Asian Times here. 

What continues to be appalling to me is my own country's lack of preparedness at dealing with the crisis.

Okay, off the soap box now!


----------



## ILT

panjandrum said:
			
		

> Well, well, well. Now isn't that a really curious thing.
> Nope. Nothing in the middle of my screen. Blank. And in case you might imagine that I'm looking at my own Google screen instead - nope - thought of that too. I am _definitely_ looking at the web address you give up the thread a bit.
> Perhaps Google are including that link only on screens sent to US IP addresses.
> "It" clearly knows I am in the UK - it offers me a link to Google UK.
> Can we find out? .. And ask them why? Do they think somehow asking for donations to a US disaster internationally would not be "good business" for them?



Well, my IP address is outside the US, and I can't see link Cuchu mentions in the middle of the page.  So my guess is that you're not hallucinating, or we both have the same mirage accross the ocean 

About aid, I now that my country has already made an official offer of specialized medical equipment and teams to be sent, but the offer has not been accepted.


----------



## lely

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> The reaction time of other countries, and their governments, to our crisis, was probably equally as immediate, the problem being, _we_ (as in Americans) simply did not hear about it until about four days after the storm, when it was finally reported in the media.




Thanks for the article, it was quite interested, and thanks for welcoming. I didn´t realized I looked new to the forum. Now I know how it works. Anyhow, you had very good points.

 Lely


----------



## cuchuflete

They are clever, or too clever by half?




			
				panjandrum said:
			
		

> Well, well, well. Now isn't that a really curious thing.
> Nope. Nothing in the middle of my screen. Blank. And in case you might imagine that I'm looking at my own Google screen instead - nope - thought of that too. I am _definitely_ looking at the web address you give up the thread a bit.
> Perhaps Google are including that link only on screens sent to US IP addresses.
> "It" clearly knows I am in the UK - it offers me a link to Google UK.
> Can we find out? .. And ask them why? Do they think somehow asking for donations to a US disaster internationally would not be "good business" for them?


----------



## Everness

ciccia1331, extremely good point! The way the media and even people in this forum are describing what's going on in the Gulf Coast conveys the idea that ALL the victims of the hurricane are a bunch of hooligans (after all they are mostly poor and black, what can you expect, right?) 



			
				ciccia1331 said:
			
		

> Something to ponder......a similar tragedy (Tsunami in Tailand) occured and the whole world rushed out to help.  Never in any of the news casts did you hear about anyone looting, shooting or any of the sort.
> 
> Why is it that a disaster of similar magnitude occurs in the US and the main topic on everyones mind is not "those poor people" but "look at all those horrible people looting and shooting up the town"?
> 
> I honestly don't understand what would cause people who are in such devistation,  to think, "hey, now's the chance for me to use my gun and cause as much trouble as i want and not get arrested for it."  honestly, that angers me so much.......the ignorance and lack of respect that people have! Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!
> 
> and that's all i have to say about that!





			
				modgirl said:
			
		

> If anyone outside the US saw the same woman, it will be a miracle if New Orleans receives any aid. And lest we not forget the people who shot at the rescuers. We've created a self-absorbed, overly dependent group of people who have absolutely no idea not only how to help themselves but have no idea how to simply be grateful and gracious for what they have been given.
> 
> And the birth of the ugly American, whether on a luxurious holiday or in the throes of a disaster, lives on.
> 
> (Of course, not all Americans are like this at all. But it's these particular *imbeciles * who are shown for all the world to see.)



If people abroad are reaching any negative conclusion about the American people or decide not to donate money just based on what they watch on TV, well, I think that they are the *real imbeciles*...


----------



## cuchuflete

modgirl said:
			
		

> I espied the ugliest sight. An obese woman in New Orleans was squealing at the camera, "I ain't 'ad no food or wadder, and it's YOUR fault. This ^%$#@! government ain't doin' nuttin' to help me and my fam-lee. I'm in American, and I dee-MAND to be hepped." (sic)
> Part of me realizes that I have no idea how I'd react in a similar circumstance. Yet, I don't recall any tsunami victims *demanding* to be helped.



The woman's obesity is irrelevant.  She has had no food or water, and is probably very frightened.    

I don't think I would be at my best under those circumstances, with the heat and devastation surrounding me, and the sound of gunfire in the background.  Behind most expressions of anger is *fear.*  I think she has every right to be full of fear.  

Expectations:  Congress just appropriated many *billions* of dollars for disaster relief.  We live in a very rich country, and spend more hundreds of millions supposedly to plan to help citizens, including obese ones, in times of national and natural disasters.  It's not surprising that she expects more help than has been received.  The liberal and the conservative administrations have publicized grounds for expecting the funds to be spent, and effectively spent.  Mr. Bush has told us all that help is being provided.  Perhaps he was having a 'liberal' moment?

Tsunami victims may have had a different set of expections.


----------



## panjandrum

Everness said:
			
		

> If people abroad are reaching any negative conclusion about the American people or decide not to donate money just based on what they watch on TV, well, I think that they are the *real imbeciles*...


Well I'm sorry Everness, but you need to remember that we are watching mostly what the American media choose to present. We see what they want us to see on their international TV.
For the past few days it has not been very positive.


----------



## Everness

panjandrum said:
			
		

> Well I'm sorry Everness, but you need to remember that we are watching mostly what the American media choose to present. We see what they want us to see on their international TV.
> For the past few days it has not been very positive.



panjandrum, you should be sorry if you uncritically buy into whatever is being showed on your TV screen, especially when it comes to American TV. During the war in Iraq, especially at the beginning, ALL  American TV networks (not just Fox) allowed sheer patriotism, and not the journalistic duty to inform as objectively as possible, to guide the coverage of the events. We had to put up with the bullshit of "embedded journalism" and things like that. Even the liberal media didn't have the cojones to mildly criticize this insane military crusade. Moreover, the networks wouldn't allow us to see how our troops died and especially how thousands of innocent Iraqis were slaughtered by our troops. It was one of the saddest chapters of American journalism. The media in general played a significant role in brainwashing the American people, something not very difficult to accomplish, I should add. 

TV, as any media, chooses to show reality from one angle, and Hurricane Katrina is no exception. But reality is much richer, multifacetic and multidimensional than that one given perspective. Of course, any savvy TV network will choose the perspective that will boost its ratings and therefore bring more advertising dollars. Therefore, they will be very selective in terms of what to cover. Most of the time they focus, as you correctly stated, on the negative side of things thus appealing to our morbid interests. As a matter a fact, I was watching this morning the Today show and one reporter was saying that people in New Orleans were caring for each other. Did you see any footage on this type of behavior much more common and pervasive than the looting? No. But now you know why. Those images don't sell as the ones showing a black guy breaking into a store. 

Anyone who watches American TV (or from any country) without using serious intellectual filters that capture and discard all the bull, is naive to say the least.


----------



## panjandrum

Everness - that is unnecessarily rude and insulting and entirely inappropriate in this forum.

You very carelessly make far too many assumptions.  You then go yadda yadda yadda on your own personal hobby horse.

If you had been paying attention, I was trying to explain to you, courteously, that for those of us trying to come to a wise judgement on what is going on in New Orleans the main flow of information comes through US media.
If you choose to interpret that as imbecility, that clearly is your own personal problem.

My point, and I will repeat it, is that the presentation of this catastrophe by the US media has, for the last few days, been almost uniformly negative.


----------



## astronauta

Regarding donations...

I was passing by the red cross booth set up for aid (they did it for the tsunami and other disasters) on my way to work when I stopped for a moment to make a donation....

Right before I thought of an amount, these were the things that were going through my head:


How much has bush spent on his "security" war?
These people are desperate
Weren't these the states that chose bush?
where the hell is he?
I can't stand watching the news anymore, I want this to stop, too sad.
Will my hard earned money (as little as it may seem) make a difference? (just like averyone else I have a mortgage, support mom, etc.)
Would it not be nice if he pulled the troops right now and rebiuld NO instead?
The victims may have no other way to survive but donations....
I have NEVER debated so much about giving a donation before. SAD SAD SAD


----------



## Everness

panjandrum said:
			
		

> Everness - that is unnecessarily rude and insulting and entirely inappropriate in this forum.
> 
> You very carelessly make far too many assumptions.  You then go yadda yadda yadda on your own personal hobby horse.
> 
> If you had been paying attention, I was trying to explain to you, courteously, that for those of us trying to come to a wise judgement on what is going on in New Orleans the main flow of information comes through US media.
> If you choose to interpret that as imbecility, that clearly is your own personal problem.
> 
> My point, and I will repeat it, is that the presentation of this catastrophe by the US media has, for the last few days, been almost uniformly negative.



panjandrum, I edited my post. I realized that the last statement could be interpreted as a personal attack. That wasn't my intention. Sorry. However, I stick by my previous statement.



			
				Everness said:
			
		

> If people abroad are reaching any negative conclusion about the American people or decide not to donate money just based on what they watch on TV, well, I think that they are the *real imbeciles*...



By the way, I don't plan to change or delete any other word or idea from the post you are reacting to. You'll have to learn to put up with, and I'm quoting you, my decision to "go yadda yadda yadda on your own personal hobby horse."


----------



## panjandrum

In that case, I repeat my assertion that you are being gratuitously offensive.
End of conversation.


----------



## GenJen54

> Originally posted by *Ciccia*
> Something to ponder......a similar tragedy (Tsunami in Tailand) occured and the whole world rushed out to help. Never in any of the news casts did you hear about anyone looting, shooting or any of the sort.
> 
> Why is it that a disaster of similar magnitude occurs in the US and the main topic on everyones mind is not "those poor people" but "look at all those horrible people looting and shooting up the town"?



Ciccia, 

There are several things I hope you will consider regarding the differences between the Tsunami and Hurricane Katrina.

I don't know why there was not any looting in any of the areas affected by the Tsunami. Perhaps the devestation was too great. Perhaps there was nothing to loot in terms of storefronts, etc. Perhaps the people were in such a state of shock, they did not know what to do. 

New Orleans, unfortunately, even before Katrina struck, had one of the highest murder rates in the United States, as you can see by this article.
It was already a city riddled with crime and over-reaching poverty among a disenfranchised population, and was just that, a city. You do not see the kind of rampant crime in other affected areas along the SE coast (Mississippi, Alabama, Florida). 

Part of the frustration from Katrina grew from the lack of immediate response from authorities. People were told to evacuate to one location, then were herded somewhere else. Others were told to go to the Convention Center where there would be "help." None was found. 

When you have tens of thousands of individuals "held up" in an over-crowded environment facing a life-threatening crisis, with no natural or basic life-sustaining resources, eventually something is going to give.

I agree with others that the media has focused predominately on the negative stories. As the saying goes, "If it bleeds, it leads." But, given the situation, I don't know that there are many positive stories. Those , perhaps, are yet to be written.


----------



## MrMagoo

mzsweeett said:
			
		

> Ok, so I have scanned thru the different threads on how people are shooting and looting and we are debating on the level of those crimes and punishments..... but I have another question for you all here....
> 
> I notice.... all the time...... that when another country has a disaster or problem..... the US always goes in running.... maybe not always asked for....... but we do help out a lot. If we oursleves the civies dont go in..... then a lot send money and other sorts of donations..... I'd like to know why after so many days...... has no one come to help us??? Is the US deemed so high up that we do not need assistance?? Or have we managed to piss off the whole world so badly that we are being thumbed??? I just have not seen anything on the news or the net about any foreign aid...... oh I'm sorry the leader from Argentina said he would help sell gasolne to hospitals, churches and schools..... it's a nice enough thought but .....sorry that doesnt really help anyone in immediate need... they do not need it.... the ones who need the help are the ones sitting in a quagmire of hell on earth!!!
> 
> Excuse my sarcasm please, but I am very frsutrated at the apparent lack of concern. If anyone knows anything that I have missed then please tell me and I'd like to know the amount (or lack) of concern here.....
> 
> Awaiting your responses,
> 
> Sweet T.


 

Hello Sweet T., 

several countries of the European Union offered help, but the USA refused!!
Don't ask me why, ask your nice president.

They've been reporting for at least two days now, that there are several German troops ready(!!) to help just waiting to get the "ok" from George W. - but he doesn't want to accept any help.

He's been criticized for that a lot already, have a look at this:
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,1564,1697728,00.htmlhttp://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,1564,1697981,00.html

All the best
-MrMagoo


----------



## gaer

panjandrum said:
			
		

> Ah, careless of us to assume the President was speaking for the administration and the country
> 
> Sorry, flippancy aside, your point is well made.


Extremely careless if you assume that the President is speaking for more than half the country. 

Gaer


----------



## panjandrum

Don't worry Gaer - I, for one, assumed nothing at all.

But as I heard the President speak, and I watched the reality on the ground, I wondered...


I wondered about a supremely self-confident nation that suddenly finds itself deeply hurt and vulnerable - way beyond what it had imagined was possible.



The reaction?

"Well of course we can cope, we are the greatest nation on earth. Do we need your help? Well we appreciate the offer, but we are the greatest nation on earth, the providers of aid, not the needy who need aid."



I wonder is there something about the Great America that actually makes it difficult for it to accept that perhaps it needs help?

Part of the impact on the rest of the world comes from the very recent, very vivid memories of the tsunami.

There is an inevitable difference between the human reactions - the people of Banda Ache and New Orleans did not (until now) have a great deal in common.

We try not to compare and contrast....

But many of us have heard of, and cared about, many different crisis situations.

I can't avoid comparing the memories etched on my soul from the tsunami and numerous African crises with reports from the Houston Astrodome. 

"It's all hand-written signs."

"You have to walk around to find out where the phones, showers, sanitation... are."

"Some people are having to sleep on blow-up mattresses."


----------



## GenJen54

I agree, Panj, this is not an ideal situation, but it is a temporary step in the right direction. It certainly does not excuse what we have witnessed over the past several days.

May I offer everyone here at least one crumb of positivity amidst our own tempest here.


----------



## GenJen54

> Originally posted by *Lauranazario*It speaks very poorly of the values of a contemporary society when one reserves his/her compassion and mourning for those who have "endeared themselves" to a given country!!!
> *A human life is a human life, suffering is sufferring, loss is loss... ANYWHERE AND EVERYWHERE in this planet*.


Sorry, I was going back through then entire thread when I saw this.  I must have missed it previously.

Laura, 

I believe you misunderstood my meaning. When I said Bush has done little to endear himself to other countries, I meant that his arrogance and attitutes toward other countries have significantly harmed our relations with *other countries those countries' governments*.  

There was not intent to infer that other countries would not and do not care, simply that Bush does not.

*Edit* in blue above. (and a typo!)


----------



## MrMagoo

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> I believe you misunderstood my meaning. When I said Bush has done little to endear himself to other countries, I meant that his arrogance and attitutes toward other countries have done significantly harmed our relations with other countries.
> 
> There was not intent to infer that other countries would not and do not care, simply that Bush does not.


 
I can only speak for Germany so far, but believe me: It takes much more than just a president like Bush to harm the German-American relations... 
I don't know whether you see this the same way, I hope so though; here, people have a disfavour against Bush, and _not_ against the US!


----------



## Jonegy

I haven't had time to got through the full thread...... but regarding Aid....

I watched the video news on MSNBC a couple of days ago and a journalist had managed to get through to New Orleans.

Among the memorable interviews was one with a man who after explaining that there had been no fresh water of food for 4 days some had broken into food stores to get food and drink.

Listening to the BBC today they have managed to send Police into  the area to prevent Looting

My question is  -  If they can get police in within 24 hours to stop looting why not water and food - and wouldn't the police be better employed in charge of the distribution rather than driving around with shotguns pointing out of their cars.

Also heard a "W" interview where he spent a 33% of the time dishing out simpathy, 33% of excuses and finally telling everyone on the eastboard (I think that was the term) that the oil pipelines going eastward were being repaired and that there wouldn't be much of a problem.

After watching the previous interviews my thoughts were "well I can see where your priorities lie ! ! ! "

If the same cock-up had been over here Tony Blair would have been hung out by his balls.

My simpathy is with them poor buggers in New Orleans.  If your government's priority is stopping petty looting instead of getting in Aid how the Hell can anyone else help.

Good ole Tony (y'know) Blair is releasing some of our oil reserves so at least the Police Cars can keep running.

Sorry for sounding so negative - but after watching and listening to those reports - if I were over there with a shotgun - I'd stuff it up "W" 's Ass and blow his brains out.

WOW - how did I manage to get that lot out without expetives .......


----------



## cuchuflete

I think the tone of this is way beyond an exchange of information.  I'll limit my comments in the text to the gist of the statements.   





			
				Everness said:
			
		

> panjandrum, you should be sorry if you uncritically buy into whatever is being showed on your TV screen, especially when it comes to American TV. If you have had the pleasure of reading Panj's posts, you will find it difficult to think he buys into anything uncritically.  If one's available information mostly has a single slant, that will convey a strong message on at least one aspect of what's going on.  How is a viewer to determine if that aspect is 5% or the whole, or 85%?  If I had a TV, I would be limited to assuming that what I saw wasn't all there was to see.
> 
> 
> The media in general played a significant role in brainwashing the American people, something not very difficult to accomplish, I should add. Should you also add that brainwashing people elsewhere is either about the same or harder or easier?  Should we assume from your statement any relative comment on the mental capacities of American people, in contrast to any other group?  It's not clear.
> 
> Of course, any savvy TV network will choose the perspective that will boost its ratings and therefore bring more advertising dollars. Therefore, they will be very selective in terms of what to cover. Most of the time they focus, as you correctly stated, on the negative side of things thus appealing to our morbid interests. As a matter a fact, I was watching this morning the Today show and one reporter was saying that people in New Orleans were caring for each other. Did you see any footage on this type of behavior much more common and pervasive than the looting? No. But now you know why. Those images don't sell as the ones showing a black guy breaking into a store. The same is true of anyone engaging in a polemic.  Sometimes debaters make very strenuous claims, in order to draw attention to themselves or their views.   Marketing.  Not only found on television.
> 
> Anyone who watches American TV (or from any country) without using serious intellectual filters that capture and discard all the bull, is naive to say the least.  I wish you would tell us how to discern what constitutes  'all the bull'.  What is shown on TV is, as you have pointed out, but a piece of the puzzle.  Being but a part of the whole does not make it 'bull'.



Un saludo,
Cuchu


----------



## cuchuflete

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> I think the tone of this is way beyond an exchange of information. I'll limit my comments in the text to the gist of the statements.
> 
> Un saludo,
> Cuchu



PS- The entire post on which I've just commented is a diatribe against TV broadcast enterprises and their customers.  That's not the topic of this thread.  Perhaps it should go into a new thread.  If the author would like, I'll split this thread and move it to a new one.


----------



## asm

Since I was not aware of how other countries reacted on 9/11 I am not sure that my comment is correct. HOwever, my "hunch" is that after the attacks international concer (not monetary help) was more significant. 

It is my impression that the war in Irak put the USA in some kind of isolation. Besides, as others have said, if Bush did not react on time, how do we expect other countries react? (this last statement is not based on my radical opposition to Bush, but by the comment my mother told me when I called her and asked, tell me in 20 seconds about your impressions about NO. Her first reaction was that Bush's response was too late. I assume this is what Mexicans are reporting in their news.

Do you remember when BUsh offered a small fund for the tsunamis? I think reacting to human tragedies are not among his best assets.

I think Americans  are very generous in this regard, they are always helping people after disasters; I hope international help could arrive sooner or later.





			
				mzsweeett said:
			
		

> Ok, so I have scanned thru the different threads on how people are shooting and looting and we are debating on the level of those crimes and punishments..... but I have another question for you all here....
> 
> I notice.... all the time...... that when another country has a disaster or problem..... the US always goes in running.... maybe not always asked for....... but we do help out a lot. If we oursleves the civies dont go in..... then a lot send money and other sorts of donations..... I'd like to know why after so many days...... has no one come to help us??? Is the US deemed so high up that we do not need assistance?? Or have we managed to piss off the whole world so badly that we are being thumbed??? I just have not seen anything on the news or the net about any foreign aid...... oh I'm sorry the leader from Argentina said he would help sell gasolne to hospitals, churches and schools..... it's a nice enough thought but .....sorry that doesnt really help anyone in immediate need... they do not need it.... the ones who need the help are the ones sitting in a quagmire of hell on earth!!!
> 
> Excuse my sarcasm please, but I am very frsutrated at the apparent lack of concern. If anyone knows anything that I have missed then please tell me and I'd like to know the amount (or lack) of concern here.....
> 
> Awaiting your responses,
> 
> Sweet T.


----------



## Everness

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> Ciccia,
> 
> I don't know why there was not any looting in any of the areas affected by the Tsunami. Perhaps the devestation was too great. Perhaps there was nothing to loot in terms of storefronts, etc. Perhaps the people were in such a state of shock, they did not know what to do.
> 
> New Orleans, unfortunately, even before Katrina struck, had one of the highest murder rates in the United States, as you can see by this article.
> It was already a city riddled with crime and over-reaching poverty among a disenfranchised population, and was just that, a city. You do not see the kind of rampant crime in other affected areas along the SE coast (Mississippi, Alabama, Florida).
> 
> Part of the frustration from Katrina grew from the lack of immediate response from authorities. People were told to evacuate to one location, then were herded somewhere else. Others were told to go to the Convention Center where there would be "help." None was found.
> 
> When you have tens of thousands of individuals "held up" in an over-crowded environment facing a life-threatening crisis, with no natural or basic life-sustaining resources, eventually something is going to give.
> 
> I agree with others that the media has focused predominately on the negative stories. As the saying goes, "If it bleeds, it leads." But, given the situation, I don't know that there are many positive stories. Those , perhaps, are yet to be written.



I agree with your post. However, I would take out your reference to the fact that New Orleans reportedly has, even before Katrina struck, one of the highest murder rates in the United States.

First of all, the stats I'm sharing show a different picture when you take into consideration crimes in general. http://www.bestplaces.net/docs/studies/crime3.aspx 
Please see where New Orleans is on the list and how many cities have a worse crime rate. 

But even if New Orleans had the same crime than, let's say Tucson, AZ, (the worst of all) what would that really mean? I think that many people --not you-- aren't taking into account that for 4 days the plight of these people was practically ignored by the federal government (even Bush ackowledged it today!) I think this could have, understandably, triggered some violent responses by some  people. I believe that any preexisting crime rate (good or bad) doesn't explain what transpired in New Orleans. Your reference to New Orleans' murder rate could imply that if Katrina had hit elsewhere, especially in white areas, the looting wouldn't take place.

*Kanye West rightly denounced in today's "A Concert for Hurricane Relief" how the media portrayed the poor, black victims of the hurricane as “looters, ” while saying the white victims are “seeking food.”  * 

Bringing up the argument that New Orleans was a city riddled with crime is a good example of blaming the victim.


----------



## GenJen54

> I believe that any preexisting crime rate (good or bad) doesn't explain what transpired in New Orleans. Your reference to New Orleans' murder rate could imply that if Katrina had hit elsewhere, especially in white areas, the looting wouldn't take place.



A pre-existing crime rate certainly doesn't explain the looting _in and of itself_, but should looked upon as a contributory factor. In my most recent statement, which was a specific reply to ciccia1331, I was simply trying to come to _*any*_ reason why violence broke out in the New Orleans when it did not after the Tsunami. To be fair, "looting" for basic survival amenities also took place along the Mississippi coast and other areas affected by Katrina. 
The rampant crime that took place in NO, however, did not take place. 

If you have the time, I would _encourage_ you to take a look not only my posts in this thread, but the *thread* I started Tuesday regarding moral and ethical implications of "looting" where I *staunchly defended* those who have been trying to "survive."  If you read those, you will see *I have not been blaming the victim.*

The specific media outlets I have been watching have made a point to describe the difference between those who have "looted" (for jewelry, TVs, etc.) versus those who were doing everything they could for their and their families' survival. 



> Originally posted by *Mr.Magoo*
> I don't know whether you see this the same way, I hope so though; here, people have a disfavour against Bush, and not against the US!



Absolutely not.  I have changed my previous post to reflect such.  Thanks for pointing it out.


----------



## Everness

Originally Posted by Everness
panjandrum, you should be sorry if you uncritically buy into whatever is being showed on your TV screen, especially when it comes to American TV. If you have had the pleasure of reading Panj's posts, you will find it difficult to think he buys into anything uncritically. If one's available information mostly has a single slant, that will convey a strong message on at least one aspect of what's going on. How is a viewer to determine if that aspect is 5% or the whole, or 85%? If I had a TV, I would be limited to assuming that what I saw wasn't all there was to see.  

1) I said, you SHOULD be sorry IF... Maybe I should have said, "Anyone should be sorry if he/she uncritically buys into whatever is being showed on his/her TV screen." 2) If possible, we shouldn't depend on just one  type of media (TV, radio, newspapers, etc.) to know what's going on in our country and in the world. Even within each type of media, one should try to diversify the sources one draws upon. 

The media in general played a significant role in brainwashing the American people, something not very difficult to accomplish, I should add. Should you also add that brainwashing people elsewhere is either about the same or harder or easier? Should we assume from your statement any relative comment on the mental capacities of American people, in contrast to any other group? It's not clear.  

Well, I have to take back what I said. It's not the media that brainwashes people but people who allow the media to brainwash them. When you put on hold your critical thinking, you allow the media to take over your intellectual processes. And yes, this can happen in any country of the world. The myth is that only Communist countries, dictatorships, etc. brainwash people and this can't happen in a free and democratic society.  

Of course, any savvy TV network will choose the perspective that will boost its ratings and therefore bring more advertising dollars. Therefore, they will be very selective in terms of what to cover. Most of the time they focus, as you correctly stated, on the negative side of things thus appealing to our morbid interests. As a matter a fact, I was watching this morning the Today show and one reporter was saying that people in New Orleans were caring for each other. Did you see any footage on this type of behavior much more common and pervasive than the looting? No. But now you know why. Those images don't sell as the ones showing a black guy breaking into a store. The same is true of anyone engaging in a polemic. Sometimes debaters make very strenuous claims, in order to draw attention to themselves or their views. Marketing. Not only found on television. 

Yes, I noticed that some foreros display this type of behavior. You shouldn't blame them. I think it's our mercantilist culture that influences them.  

Anyone who watches American TV (or from any country) without using serious intellectual filters that capture and discard all the bull, is naive to say the least. I wish you would tell us how to discern what constitutes 'all the bull'. What is shown on TV is, as you have pointed out, but a piece of the puzzle. Being but a part of the whole does not make it 'bull'. 

Correct. Being a part of the whole doesn't make it bull. The problem is when someone believes that the part is the whole! I already addressed this above. 

And yes, I'm going to open a new thread on this other topic. 

Gracias varon!


----------



## Papalote

_So are we still in the position that the US must fend for itself?? I know that after all the aid we have sent forth to other countries...... it would disgust me to think that we are totally alone in our crisis......_

Hi, everyone

I don't know how to copy multiple previous replies, so I have copied above a phrase that strikes me as being a fair summary of some of the posts. Needless to say, it really hurts to be constantly told that we never offer and give you help. We are your northern neighbour, and I think we have proved that we will come to your rescue whenever you need it, remember 9/11. Once again we have been one of the first countries to have sent aid immediately. And yet, I read that you believe we don't care. 

I heard in our Canadian news that 2 days ago more than 15 countries had offered help. Today, we sent an airbus and, if I remember correctly, 3 warships with supplies. We might be a huge country surface-wise, but population-wise is another story. So our efforts cannot be as spectacular as one would wish for. Yet, during 9/11 Nova Scotians and other Canadians opend their HOMES to passengers from your flights when your airspace was closed. It took 3 years for your President, to thank us. And yet, we have once again offered our American friends, those we personally know, our homes and any other help they might need. Do you really think that watching children, elderly and sick people crying and begging for help doesn't move us just because they are American? Could it be that the world is slow to react because we still have a hard time comprehending that the images of floating bodies and looters and armed milita shooting is happening in the USA and not in one of those eternally conflictive "poor third-world" countries? I for one am having a very hard time understanding what is happening. We have been told, on t.v., that organizations like Sun Youth are just waiting to be officially asked to help to start collecting donations. That meanwhile, they are telling all of us who are phoning with offers of water, medicine and food to call the Red Cross because there hasn[t been an official (governmental) request for aid. Why aren't CNN and ABC and all your media reacting like they did for the tsunami? Or does media hype only apply to the underdevelopped? Do you wonder that individuals around the world are a little bit lost?
It might be hard to understand this, but just because most of the world (including California and Massachussetts  ) do not like your president, it doesn't mean that we do not like the American people as a whole. Nobody can watch the news and not cry, in outrage and in pain, at the scenes of human beings, suffering and scared, asking for help. We are all human after all.

So, don't despair. Help is on the way. Just believe that you do have many friends who are praying for you.

Papalote


----------



## GenJen54

> Originally posted by *Papalote*
> Needless to say, it really hurts to be constantly told that we never offer and give you help. We are your northern neighbour, and I think we have proved that we will come to your rescue whenever you need it, remember 9/11. Once again we have been one of the first countries to have sent aid immediately. And yet, I read that you believe we don't care.


This thread is certainly starting to take up its share of bandwidth, so it is understandable if you were not able to read all of the posts. If you had been able to take the time, you would have found the contention that other countries are unwilling to assist us has been deemed unfounded. 

So you don't have to read every post, please look at the following: #14, #33, #44, #58, #60 and #67. All of these acknowledge the fact that other countries have offered assistance, and it is thanks(?) to the arrogance of the US Administration that aid has thus far been refused, or in their words "not asked for."  You might wish to look here.



> Why aren't CNN and ABC and all your media reacting like they did for the tsunami? Or does media hype only apply to the underdevelopped?


It's possible the commercial pleas for aid have not made it to Canadian airwaves. They are all over the place here. Additionally, our celebrities have now stepped in with what has become the post-disaster _cause celebre_, the "entertain-a-thon." Even comedian Jerry Lewis, who for several decades has hosted the annual Labor Day Telethon for MS, has said that he will contribute a portion of the proceeds to the American Red Cross and Salvation Army.



> It might be hard to understand this, but just because most of the world (including California and Massachussetts ) do not like your president, it doesn't mean that we do not like the American people as a whole.


I cannot speak for all Americans, but I'm sure there are many who recognize this and deeply appreciate it.



> Just believe that you do have many friends who are praying for you.


Thank you.


----------



## Everness

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> A pre-existing crime rate certainly doesn't explain the looting _in and of itself_, but should looked upon as a contributory factor.



Let me set the record straight (I try, if possible, to alienate just one person per day). I think your post was a solid one. I never said that you asserted  that there was a correlation between crime rate and looting. I said that such correlation could be implied. If this happened this could be a good example of blaming the victim. In this post you talk about crime rate as a contributory factor. I still have problems with throwing this into the basket of explanations but I respect your position. We'll have to agree to disagree.


----------



## Everness

For those who are following the news on Hurricane Katrina from abroad and are mostly relying on TV coverage, this article will hopefully complement the information you're getting. 

http://www.boston.com/news/weather/articles/2005/09/03/for_days_many_felt_forgotten?mode=PF

I would like to highlight a couple of paragraphs.

About the looting:  

_Mosgrove, 54, said she had not eaten in 24 hours. Others admitted that the only way they could eat was to steal, to loot. By yesterday, the looting had become something of a morning tradition: After sunrise each day, people -- mostly men -- leave the center in search of whatever they can find. Pepsi. Beer. Water. And if they're lucky: ice._

I hope this explains the circumstances that prompted folks to loot. It's interesting that they have no problem using the verbs to steal and to loot. Taking into account the circumstances, I think we should decriminalize such activity. However, it's true what Kanye West said yesterday. We use different words to describe the same actions depending on who are the actors. If folks are black and poor, they are "looting." If folks are white, well, they are just "seeking food." (Let's not forget that black people are genetically violent.)

About the identity of the looters:

_But, for the most part, these are not the armed thugs who have received so much media attention this week and who, according to the evacuees, come out at night to terrorize them. These people are working-class New Orleanians: waiters and carpenters, sheetrock finishers and small-business owners, truck drivers and city employees. And each has a harrowing story of a journey across the city by boat, truck, foot, and sometimes helicopter._

The criminals are a minuscule group of teenagers (comparatively speaking) who terrorize the thousands and thousands of victims of Hurricane Katrina. But of course, the media focuses exclusively on that bunch of assholes. Why? First, that type of spin on the news sells. Second, it allows the system to keep the stereotypes alive. "I told you: All black people are violent. We are trying to help them and they shoot at rescuers or they loot. They are a bunch of animals." 

About real black people:

_Many were dreading another long night, the return of armed teenagers, of fear. But they were also growing closer to each other. Yesterday morning, two men began sweeping the dirty sidewalks outside the convention center. ''We've got to come together, bro," said Patrick Stevenson as he swept and people shared what food they had. One woman, Debbie Hamilton, even offered her most precious commodity to a reporter. ''Do you want a cup of ice water?" she asked._

No editorializing necessary. 

Again, these stories will never make it to your TV screen. I hope you find them useful.


----------



## Beautiful Princess

Greetings... now more than ever I believe prayers are essential.. to our All-knowing Creator... we can cry out to Him in all our despair and hopelessness and everything will fall into pieces.. How do you think my country overcome most of our problems???..


----------



## mzsweeett

Greetings once again forer@s,

I truly thank you all for the input here. I thank you for your concern, passion of your opinions, and your forthrightness (is this a word or did I just make a new one???).

I have been watching the news (a few stations), radio, reading internet articles.... and yes I have been watching this thread..... I've drawn some very definite conclusions.....

As an American I am very sad over the severly slow progression of aid to our own.... I am saddened even more by my leaders' lack of acceptance for foreign aid..... something I expect will worsen the views of foreigners to us as a whole. We are already seen as arrogant, immature, greedy, lazy..... blah blah blah and so on for miles of endless negativity. I have heard it many times over.... I get the point. The general.... (_*not individual because I know that many individuals do not feel this way....*_) opinion is negative. What can I say but I suppose it looks very bad if we can't mobilize ourselves to save even a few of our own in a reasonable time and moreover our higher ups are refusing aid.... or should I say not openly accepting or refusing....

My heart is with those who truly need it and I pray that God above will watch over the rescuers, keep them safe so they can give the help so desperately needed. 

I care not for critical remarks of the media.... people with sense will ignore what is obviously propaganda... what I asked for was how you all felt about the situation and was asking for help.... if you had any.... about other information which I was clearly lacking.

The going back and forth comments were really unnecessary and I feel they were quite inappropriate. I understand we are all feeling badly for those down there, but there is no need to make any sort of personal remarks. An opinion can be made... even if it is purely to say that you disagree with another forer@... without sounding like you want to remove their head with a verbal sword.

Once again I thank you for all the candid thoughts here, I wish all of you well and for any who have family or friends down in that area my thoughts and prayers are with you.

Sweet T.


----------



## cuchuflete

With sincere thanks to Sweet T., I'm closing this particular discussion of the aftermath of the hurricane.  The forums are open for any further discussions you may wish to initiate on this or any related topic.  

The last words belong to....



			
				mzsweeett said:
			
		

> there is no need to make any sort of personal remarks. An opinion can be made... even if it is purely to say that you disagree with another forer@... without sounding like you want to remove their head with a verbal sword.


----------

