# Алфавит



## mikasa_90

*Алфавит: 
*

_The pronunciation is : Alfaviet?
It mean alphabet right?
_


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## Thomas1

mikasa_90 said:


> *Алфавит:
> *
> 
> _The pronunciation is : Alfaviet?
> It mean alphabet right?
> _


It means alphabet. I hear it being pronounced in my dictionary as alfav*i*t (but  you may want to wait for a confirmation).

Tom


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## Ptak

Thomas is right.
It's pronounced al-fa-v*i*t.
"*L*" is harder than the Italian *L*.


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## mikasa_90

_But if I wanna read a 'B' for example BOAKA it would be ' Vodka'?
Or not?
_


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## Ptak

mikasa_90 said:


> _But if I wanna read a 'B' for example BO*Д*KA it would be ' Vodka'?_
> _Or not?_


Your question is not clear.
What do you mean "If I wanna..."?
"Водка" is pronounced v*o*tka.


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## Sibenik

I believe, Mikasa has spelled the word BOAKA in wrong way.
It should be spelled BOДKA.
In BOДKA, the  letter  Д is pronounced like T as in English " Top"
However, the letter  Д   is sometimes pronounced as D like in English " Day "
In which case it is pronounced D or T maybe the native speakers could say more.

Thanks


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## Sibenik

mikasa_90 said:


> *Алфавит:
> *
> 
> _The pronunciation is : Alfaviet?
> It mean alphabet right?
> _



If you don't mind
It means alphabet, right?


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## mikasa_90

_I searched on a site the pronunciation of my second word.

The pronunciation is Vodka not Votka.

So what stand for Votka?
_


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## Thomas1

mikasa_90 said:


> _I searched on a site the pronunciation of my second word._
> 
> _The pronunciation is Vodka not Votka._
> 
> _So what stand for Votka?_


Hi,

Could you please provide a link to the site you're referring to?

As far as I know in Russian _d_ undergoes regressive assimilation when it is in a cluster along with a consonant. Since the other consonant is _k,_ which is unvoiced, _d_ also is pronounced as its unvoiced counterpart, i.e. _t_--so it should be _votka_.

Tom


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## FYV

Thomas1 said:


> Hi,
> 
> As far as I know in Russian _d_ undergoes regressive assimilation when it is in a cluster along with a consonant. Since the other consonant is _k,_ which is unvoiced, _d_ also is pronounced as its unvoiced counterpart, i.e. _t_--so it should be _votka_.


 
Exactly


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## Ptak

mikasa_90 said:


> _The pronunciation is Vodka not Votka._


You can trust me, I'm Russian native speaker, and the word *водка* (vodka) is pronounced exactly VO*T*KA.


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## cajzl

Maybe the original question was why the Russians pronounce *alfavit* and not *alfabet*.

The answer is that the Old Greeks themselves changed the pronunciation of the letter *B*eta from /*b*eta/ to /*v*ita/ many centuries ago.

Similarly:

*B*asileos > *V*asil
Se*b*astopolis > Se*v*astopol
...

And finally the Cyrillic letter *B* is pronounced /*v*/ (from the time of Cyrill and Method).


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## Ptak

cajzl said:


> the Old Greeks themselves changed the pronunciation of the letter *B*eta from /*b*eta/ to /*v*ita/ many centuries ago.


I have many doubts about it.


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## papillon

Ptak said:


> I have many doubts about it.


How do you mean?


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## Ptak

papillon said:


> How do you mean?


Я сомневаюсь в том, что "сами древние греки изменили произношение буквы β (_бэта_) на _вита_".
Никто вообще точно не знает, какое именно было произношение у древних греков. Существует так называемое "рейхлиновское произношение" и так называемое "эразмовское произношение", т.е. это их _версии_, каково было произношение у древних греков и как следует читать ту или иную букву.
А заявление "греки *сами* взяли и изменили _бета_ на _вита_" выглядит смешно.


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## mikasa_90

_My original doubt was the pronuniation of B in various words, so now I'm searching the web site where i took my sentence about the second word Vodka._


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## mikasa_90

http://masterrussian.com/blbasic.shtml 

This site every day has got a new picture in russian, two days ago there was a picture 

with *водка ( =Vodka)*, _but the exactly pronunciation is Votka i take it for good, you 

are native russian not me.

Spasibo anyway.
_


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## Thomas1

mikasa_90 said:


> http://masterrussian.com/blbasic.shtml
> 
> This site every day has got a new picture in russian, two days ago there was a picture
> 
> with *водка ( =Vodka)*, _but the exactly pronunciation is Votka i take it for good, you _
> 
> _are native russian not me._
> 
> _Spasibo anyway._


Hi Mikasa_90,

I have browsed the site and haven't found any vodka there, on the other hand, I have found vodka in another sentence:
*У меня бутылка водки *Oo mee*nya* boo*til*ka *vot*kee I have a bottle of vodka
http://www.masterrussian.com/blarrival.shtml
Perhaps you saw translation into Russian not pronunciation (the sign that is there today includes only translation)?

Tom


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## sargio

"Д" and "Т". Both  are right.
For "Д".
if you try say vodka slow and using syllables  you will get something like this:
ВОД-КА  or ВОТ-КА.
as for me,  "ВОД-КА" sounds more natural.

For "Т"
But as the speed increases "Д"  is going to be "Т".

So in usual speach it's something between "Д"  and "Т".
like D in Day and T in Tee but both  "Д" and "Т" are smoother than the orignal ones. Finally, in many cases (normal speed or faster), I think it's more "Т" than "Д" (but "Д" still sounds there).


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## Ptak

sargio said:


> as for me, "ВОД-КА" sounds more natural.


Vo*d*ka doesn't sound natural. I've never heard it.



sargio said:


> For "Т"
> But as the speed increases "Д" is going to be "Т".
> 
> So in usual speach it's something between "Д" and "Т".


*Д* changes to *Т* not because of speed or "usual speach", but because of the Russian phonetics rule: the next sound (*к*) is surd, so the sound before *к* becomes surd too (*д* becomes *т*).


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## palomnik

I'm getting confused. Are we talking about Алфавит or водка in this thread?

The phenomenon surrounding the д in водка is called, I believe regressive assimilation. Since the following sound (к) is unvoiced, the д becomes unvoiced. Since Russian writing generally tries to maintain the phonemic integrity of the morphemes, the д is not changed into a т in writing.

As for Алфавит, while there may be some debate about when the sound shift occurred turning Greek β into /v/ (and turning Greek η into /i/ for that matter), or even if there ever was a sound shift to begin with, they certainly were pronounced that way by the time that the Byzantines started influencing Slavic culture.


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## mikasa_90

http://www.masterrussian.com/index-11.shtml

Please see the 'Today's street sign'


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## Ptak

mikasa_90 said:


> http://www.masterrussian.com/index-11.shtml
> 
> Please see the 'Today's street sign'


And what di you want to say? 

It's wrote:
*Russian:* Русская водка
*English:* Russian vodka 

"Russian vodka" IS NOT a pronunciation, but a _translation_! Of course it's *vodka* and not *votka* in English.


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## Spectre scolaire

I agree with _palomnik_(#21) that this is a very confusing thread. But let’s look at how this all started – I mean with vodka and _not_ with alphabet. The questions related to these two issues are fundamentally different. Indeed, I’d suggest that this thread be called “Pronunciation of Russian водка”, and that postings related to алфавит be deleted.


mikasa_90 said:


> _But if I wanna read a 'B' for example BOAKA it would be ' Vodka'? Or not?_


 May I be permitted to rephrase what I think _mikasa_90_ means:

“When I hear Russians pronounce the word водка, I hear something like [voaka].”

If you are totally unfamiliar with a language, you may hear things that even natives don’t clearly perceive. There is also an alphabet  disturbing the native perception of what they think they say. In fact, it is much “easier” with Chinese where you just present an ideogram and ask people from different parts of China to pronounce it.  

Here is what we get in our case:



Ptak said:


> You can trust me, I'm Russian native speaker, and the word водка (vodka) is pronounced exactly VOTKA.


 I trust you, _Ptak_, but there is _perhaps_ more to it than a *d* becoming [t].

I am not a native speaker of Russian myself, but I could have been one if my exposure to this language had been more consistent over time during my childhood. It wasn’t, and my knowledge remains pitifully rudimentary. But I can reel off long verses that I don’t even know the meaning of – mutatis mutandis, like a child who learns to sing a great number of songs before he can really speak, or a Turk having learned by heart large portions of the Koran without any functional comprehension of Arabic.

As far as I understand _mikasa_90_, he probably hears something that _Ptak_ may not be aware of:

The pronunciation of [o] in водка may be slightly diphthongized. Based on the realities of his own language Italian, _mikasa_90_ associates the first part of the Russian word with an Italian word like vuoto, “empty”. 

At least, this is what _I_ read into his somehow clumsy  English posting – if you excuse my blunt assessment of an overall misevaluated posting.

And I agree with him! [ó] in Russian [vó] may turn out like a _*rising* diphthong_ – but no way as clear-cut as the Italian one. 

I don’t know why this is so, and I leave any explanation to the panel of experts.  Admittedly, there is more to phonological details than most fluent speakers of a language are aware of. Have a look at http://people.ucsc.edu/~padgett/locker/russpal.pdf – a highly interesting comparison between Russian and Irish! The choice of Irish is a case in point. This language is well-known for having a particularly intricate phonology. Maybe Russian is more intricate than this thread seems to indicate? 
 ​


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## SerinusCanaria3075

Hi there.
This is indeed an interesting topic considering the fact that I know nothing about Russian. Anyway...

There were some misunderstandings in terms of transliteration versus actual pronunciation, like _Ptak_ said:


> It's written:
> *Russian:* Русская водка
> *English:* Russian vodka (_spelling and pronunciation in English, not Russian_)
> _*Spanish:* vodka rusa_.


The Greek pronunciation would be similar to that of Russian, unlike that of Spanish/English correct?
*Ρωσική βότκα *-> Rosiki vo*t*ka.

I don't know about the stress on the -_*o*_ but at least the "T" is the same.


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## Ptak

Spectre scolaire said:


> I am not a native speaker of Russian myself


So maybe you'll be so kind and let us know what language is native for you? Or "A yurt somewhere on the globe" is one of the Andaman Islands languages?


I think mikasa_90's ВО*А*КА instead of ВО*Д*КА is just a mistake. The letters are a bit similar.


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## cajzl

> I'm getting confused. Are we talking about Алфавит or водка in this thread?


Probably about the pronunciation of the letter B in these words.

Mikasa wrote:



> _My original doubt was the pronuniation of B in various words, so now I'm searching the web site where i took my sentence about the second word Vodka._


The original question was how to pronounce the Cyrillic letter *B* (and not how to pronounce *Д *before *К*)?

The answer: the Cyrillic letter *B* is pronounced /v/, including the words of Greek origin (e.g. aлфа*в*ит).

On the other side the Cyrillic letter *Б* , which is an incomplete B(eta), is pronounced /b/.

The assimilation of voiceness is another phenomenon.


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## palomnik

Spectre scolaire said:


> “When I hear Russians pronounce the word водка, I hear something like [voaka].”
> 
> The pronunciation of [o] in водка may be slightly diphthongized. Based on the realities of his own language Italian, _mikasa_90_ associates the first part of the Russian word with an Italian word like vuoto, “empty”.
> 
> At least, this is what _I_ read into his somehow clumsy  English posting – if you excuse my blunt assessment of an overall misevaluated posting.
> 
> And I agree with him! [ó] in Russian [vó] may turn out like a _*rising* diphthong_ – but no way as clear-cut as the Italian one.


 

Spectre, it's not surprising that you noticed this. Learners of Russian are drilled early and often on the fact that Russian consonants are palatized - i.e., made "soft" - when followed by a soft vowel (я, е, и, ё, ю). What is not immediately stressed is that many Russian consonants can be velarized when they are followed by a "hard" vowel (а, э, ы,о, у). This can sound as if a slight "w" sound was inserted between the consonant and the vowel. Different consonants manifest this to different degrees, but the consonant в is one of the ones where it is most obvious. So yes, водка sounds as if it is pronounced /vwotkə/.


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## Outsider

There are some sound samples in a link posted in this previous discussion.


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## Spectre scolaire

palomnik said:
			
		

> Spectre, it's not surprising that you noticed this. [...] So yes, водка sounds as if it is pronounced /vwotkə/.


Even if I cannot generate Russian sentences, I am able to pronounce the language correctly, an “inconsistency” which has startled many Russians. I don’t know what you’d call this type of language “mastery” – it certainly isn’t very functional. 

Trying to _read_ Russian as an adult – of course, I eventually learned the alphabet (which is not a big deal when you know Greek) – this normally turns out to be a search for words I “know”, words which belong to my _corpus_ of children’s verses, so to say. водка is “attested” at least twice – and once in the form водку. The problem with this kind of ‘language recognition’ is that applying wrong accent radically changes the colour of the vowels. 




Ptak said:


> I think mikasa_90's ВО*А*КА instead of ВО*Д*КА is just a mistake. The letters are a bit similar.


 Following this posting I could have mentioned _velarization_ from the article I referred to, and I was about to suggest a _spectrographic analysis_ of the word when _palomnik_ came to my rescue. 




Outsider said:


> In the case of Russian, I believe "plain" consonants are velarized (another kind of secondary articulation). When I was listening to the file, I often heard a "w" combined with the non-palatalized consonants, just as I hear a "y" combined with the palatalized consonants. The difference between the two kinds of articulation was especially noticeable to me for the "l" sounds; the non-palatalized one is a dark "l", a sound I recognize from Portuguese, while the palatalized one sounds like a "lh", or a clear "l", combined with a "y".


 _Exatamente_ !

I think there is a lesson to be learned from this “vodka story”.

A professional linguist is _trained to judge his own language from outside_. This is a type of introspection which does not come together with native mastery of a language. In fact, non-natives may perceive minute phonetic details because they are not “biased” by oral norm or written standard. The same obtains for every language. 

Chez la plupart des individus les impressions visuelles sont plus nettes et plus durables que les impressions acoustiques; aussi s’attachent-ils de préférence aux premières. L’image graphique finit par s’imposer aux dépens du son. (Ferdinand de Saussure)
 ​


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