# Persian: different words for book.



## blowe46

I was reading some old Middle Persian texts and ran across two interesting titles: 

*MĀDAYĀN Ī HAZĀR DĀDESTĀN* 
*MĀDAYĀN Ī SHATRANJ*


Those two titles are interesting because the Modern Persian word for book is کتاب  which is a loanword from Arabic.  I assume this word be مادیان in Modern Persian.  I have not encountered this word. I would like to know if this word exists in Modern Persian in any form.  Many Persian words from the Middle Persian often become either archaic or extremely formal.  I do know a way of saying something  written is "نامه".  A common example is کارنامه ... 

thanks!


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## searcher123

In modern Persian the only word for "book" is كتاب (as a stand alone word) or نامه (in combination with other words such as سفرنامه, حكايت نامه and so on).

Also the only meaning of ماديان in modern Persian is 'female horse'.


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## arsham

The middle persian madyan in those titles does not mean book per se it rather means subject, principle or memoir. The only other word I remember is nebi or nepi in New Persian corresponding to nibeg (short i, long e) in middle persian. nebi is obsolete nowadays.


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## arsham

By the way, shatranj in middle persian is chatrang and the book covering its rules and the legendary history of its invention is called "wizarishn i chatrang ud nihishn i new-ardaxshir", i.e. explanation of chess and the invention of backgammon. Where did you find that title?


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## blowe46

Wow. Where did you get that great piece of information?  I would love to learn for my own benefit.  Trying to find sources of Middle Persian vocbulary is almost obsolete. 

I actually knew it was Chatranj and not Shatranj but I accidentally wrote the modern Persian word. My mistake. 

The title I found comes from the Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_chess


In the article there's a reference to Matikan-i-chatrang which I assumed Matikan is spelled incorrectly. 

Could you spell nabi for me in Modern Persian? is it نپی یا نبی


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## arsham

Your spelling for nebi/nepi is correct you can look it up in Dehkhoda's dictionary which is available online.
matikaan is not a wrong spelling per se it is closer to the transliteration. The exact sound system of Middle Persian is not yet completely known but nowadays most people follow MacKenzie's rules of transcription if the pronunciation is not known then one would stick to the transliteration i.e. transposition of pahlavi letters to latin characters m@tyk@n' or m@tyd@n' whose reconstructed pronunciation according to MacKenzie's rules would be mâdayân.


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## Qureshpor

Another word for book, in Persian, I believe is "daftar".


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## marrish

arsham said:


> By the way, shatranj in middle persian is chatrang and the book covering its rules and the legendary history of its invention is called "wizarishn i chatrang ud nihishn i new-ardaxshir", i.e. explanation of chess and the invention of backgammon. Where did you find that title?


 And chatrang comes from the original Sanskrit chaturanga meaning having four parts. The original Indian chess involved four players!


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## BP.

QURESHPOR said:


> Another word for book, in Persian, I believe is "daftar".


I thought _daftar _was a notebook, such as one employed by a student. I'd certainly like to be enlightened if it is otherwise, thank you.


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## searcher123

> I thought _daftar _was a notebook, such as one employed by a student.



You are right. The only meaning of دفتر to me is "notebook" too.


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## BP.

tashakkor.

Do you have this word in Farsi: طومار, which we take in Urdu to mean a bundle of free pages strewn together?


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## searcher123

BelligerentPacifist said:


> tashakkor.
> 
> Do you have this word in Farsi: طومار, which we take in Urdu to mean a bundle of free pages strewn together?



You are welcome. yes, we have. It is a common word in modern Persian too.


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## Qureshpor

searcher123 said:


> You are right. The only meaning of دفتر to me is "notebook" too.




The thread is about words in Old Persian texts, not 2012!! Here is a piece from Vis-o-Ramin, quoted by the celebrated linguist of Persian language, hailing from France.

dar in eqlim ân *dafter* bekhânand
bedân tâ pahlavi az vey bedânand
kojâ mardom andar in eqlim hamvâr
bovand ân lafz e shirin râ kharidâr


In this country they read that *book*
"In order to learn Pahlavi in it,
"For people in this country always
"Are fond of that sweet language."

چنین خواندم امروز در دفتری 
که زنده ست جمشید را دختری

منوچهری 

​I  have read so today in a book
That Jamshed's daughter is alive!

Minuchehri


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## Alfaaz

Excuse my lack of knowledge, but is this دفتر the same as the one derived/ماخوذ from Arabic? or are there two daftars-one from Arabic meaning _office_ and another from Farsi meaning _book/notebook_? 

Also, QP or BP, are these used in Urdu the same way as being discussed here about Farsi: daftar-book/notebook? (We of course use it to mean office, dafaatir being the plural)

Just realized: The Online Urdu Dictionary has so many different entries/meanings for one word: daftar!


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## Alfaaz

Another question, could کوچک alone mean notebook (it is derived from Farsi and means: small, little, diminutive; younger, junior) according to the two different links provided?


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## Jervoltage

BelligerentPacifist said:


> tashakkor.
> 
> Do you have this word in Farsi: طومار, which we take in Urdu to mean a bundle of free pages strewn together?



In Persian, it means a roll of paper used for writing a document; scroll.


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## Jervoltage

Alfaaz said:


> Another question, could کوچک alone mean notebook (it is derived from Farsi and means: small, little, diminutive; younger, junior) according to the two different links provided?



No, _*کوچک*_ doesn't mean 'notebook' in Persian.


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## Qureshpor

Alfaaz said:


> Excuse my lack of knowledge, but is this دفتر the same as the one derived/ماخوذ from Arabic? or are there two daftars-one from Arabic meaning _office_ and another from Farsi meaning _book/notebook_?
> 
> daftar, is originally Persian, as shown in the link below from Platts.
> 
> P دفتر _daftar (A. daftar, diftar, fr. the P.; Gr. __διφθερα__ 'a skin,' &c.), s.m. A roll, scroll, list; an index; a bundle of papers or written documents tied together in a cloth; a record, register, journal, book, volume, account-book; an official statement or report (especially of public revenue); archives; a record-office; an office, counting-house, place of business:—daftar-ḵẖāna, s.m. Record-office; office, counting-house; archives:—daftar-ḵẖarć, s.m. Office-charges:—daftar-navīs, s.m. A clerk; a registrar:—sar-ě-daftar, s.m. Head of an office; head clerk._
> 
> Also, QP or BP, are these used in Urdu the same way as being discussed here about Farsi: daftar-book/notebook? (We of course use it to mean office, dafaatir being the plural).
> 
> Yes, we use it in a similar manner in Urdu.
> 
> roz-i-Hisaab pesh ho jab meraa daftar-i-3amal
> aap bhii sharmsaar ho mujh ko bhii sharmsaar kar
> 
> Iqbal


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## searcher123

QURESHPOR said:


> (...)
> چنین خواندم امروز در دفتری
> که زنده ست جمشید را دختری
> 
> I  have read so today in a *book*
> That Jamshed's daughter is alive!



Why not:
I  have read so today in a *notebook*
That Jamshed's daughter is alive!

?


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## arsham

searcher123 said:


> Why not:
> I  have read so today in a *notebook*
> That Jamshed's daughter is alive!
> 
> ?



Daftar in Middle Persian and Classical Persian was used in the sense of "book", Qureshpor is right about that passage. Only in Contemporary Persian,  daftar is exclusively used in the sense of notebook.


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## searcher123

> Daftar in Middle Persian and Classical Persian was used in the sense of  "book", Qureshpor is right about that passage. Only in Contemporary  Persian,  daftar is exclusively used in the sense of notebook.



I didn't told *Qureshpor* was wrong, I just want to know when two different words have meaning in a sentence, how we can understand which one of them is correct?


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## Jervoltage

searcher123 said:


> I didn't told *Qureshpor* was wrong, I just want to know when two different words have meaning in a sentence, how we can understand which one of them is correct?



You have to look up the words 'book' and 'notebook' so as to notice the difference in their meanings.


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## searcher123

Jervoltage said:


> You have to look up the words 'book' and 'notebook' so as to notice the difference in their meanings.



Well, in following poem:

چنین خواندم امروز در دفتری 
که زنده ست جمشید را دختری


How you can confirm that دفتر mean "book", not "notebook"?!  *Qureshpor* told this poem was by منوچهري and because منوچهري was a poet of middle Persian's age, so that mean "book". Now suppose that we don't know about the poet. Maybe I composed the poem . Can you tell me what is the meaning of دفتر now?!


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## Jervoltage

searcher123 said:


> Well, in following poem:
> 
> چنین خواندم امروز در دفتری
> که زنده ست جمشید را دختری
> 
> 
> How you can confirm that دفتر mean "book", not "notebook"?!  *Qureshpor* told this poem was by منوچهري and because منوچهري was a poet of middle Persian's age, so that mean "book". Now suppose that we don't know about the poet. Maybe I composed the poem . Can you tell me what is the meaning of دفتر now?!



It would have been different if we hadn't known the poet or the period in which the poem was written, but since we know the poem is _*منوچهری*_'s, then we should consider it in the context of Middle Persian.


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## arsham

Manuchehri is not a poet of Middle Persian period!!!! Middle Persian was. mostly spoken prior to Muslum conquest! All the literary works from mudlim authors are in Classical Persian!!!
As to daftar,you should check the following and preceding verses to be sure, if you are serious at all!


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## searcher123

arsham said:


> Manuchehri is not a poet of Middle Persian period!!!! Middle Persian was. mostly spoken prior to Muslum conquest! All the literary works from mudlim authors are in Classical Persian!!!
> As to daftar,you should check the following and preceding verses to be sure, if you are serious at all!



So informative. Thank you very much. BTW, does "mudlim" is a typo of "Muslim" or you mean a word that I don't know about it, please?


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