# EN: say / tell + (to) - direct / indirect object



## Areyou Crazy

it is a pain but it depends on the verb...
like in English 
I said to him (said cannot have a direct object)
i told him(told always has a direct object)

I know this isn't the same but if you look at 'aider'
you have to remember that it is never 'lui aider'
i am probably telling you how difficult it is and not helping 
but i think you have to listen to people or the radio to learn by heart


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## jann

> I said to him (said cannot have a direct object)
> i told him(told always has a direct object)


I'm sorry, but this is not true. 

_I said something to someone. _
verb: to say
direct object: something, the thing you said
indirect object: someone, the person to whom you said it

_I told something to someone_
verb: to tell
direct object: something, the thing you told (a lie, the truth, a story, etc)
indirect object: someone, the person to whom you spoke

It can be confusing in English because as soon as you start shortening the sentence by replacing "to someone" with a pronoun (eg., I told him something) we lose the word "to" which is the clue that tells you we have an indirect object.  If you want to analyze the English version, you have say the sentence in the longest version possible.


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## Areyou Crazy

ah yes i was incorrectly generalising a rule.  I took an example from reported speech

but i cannot say ' i told something to him' ?
I must say  'i told him something' ?


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## jann

> but i cannot say ' i told something to him' ?
> I must say  'i told him something' ?


Put it this way.  It would sound rather silly if you said, "I told something to him," because we are so accustomed to the shortened version. It is not grammatically wrong; it just isn't idiomatic. 

Think about another example:  "So remember that horrible experience I had trying to renew my drivers' license?  Well, *I told the story to my friend Jane*, and she said that the exact same thing happened to her last year!"

Clearly, the thing that gets told isn't "Jane" - it's the story!  Just the same as when you say "I told him," the thing that gets told isn't "him," but rather some piece of news.  In either case, the words that get spoken are the direct object, and the person who hears them is the indirect object.


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## adockus

What about "he said to me to wait" etc.?


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## LMorland

Hello adockus, and welcome to the Forum! 

I'm glad you brought up this point, because it highlights the difference between "say" and "tell" that Areyou Crazy was trying to distinguish.

In English, we say, *"He told me to wait."* 
We cannot say "He told to me to wait". 

Further, we _can* _say *"He said to me to wait."* 
We cannot say, "He said me to wait". 

__________
* However, it is not idomatic; see posts #10 & #14 below.


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## Chimel

It's an interesting point to me too: how can we distinguish these two categories of verbs, the ones "with to" (like "to say") and the ones without (like "to tell")?

For instance, I often have a doubt between:
- I promised him/to him that...
- Can you explain it me/to me?
- I suggest you/to you to...
- He advised me/to me to wait.

Or can I infer from Jann's post #4 that using "to him" is always gramatically right (but sometimes not very idiomatic)?


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## LMorland

Chimel said:


> It's an interesting point to me too: how can we distinguish these two categories of verbs, the ones "with to" (like "to say") and the ones without (like "to tell")?


Well, I had always thought that "to tell" was transitive and "to say" was intransitive. However www.m-w.com states that they are both transitive (as used here).

I can well understand how a non native-speaker would have a problem with these prepositions (or lack thereof). Here are the answers:





> - I promised him/to him that...
> - Can you explain it me/to me?
> - I suggest you/to you to...
> - He advised me/to me to wait.





> Or can I infer from Jann's post #4 that using "to him" is always gramatically right (but sometimes not very idiomatic)?


Well, I haven't thought about the differences between these verbs for a while. It is true that, from an historical linguistic point of view, both the "hims" in "I said to him" and "I told him" are _dative _(in the Latin sense of being an indirect object.) 

However, we English _speakers never, _ever say (nor write): "I told to him" or "I said him".


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## Chimel

Thanks a lot, LMorland! Very useful indeed. 

Two more questions, if you don't mind:


> However, we English _speakers never, _ever say (nor write): "I told to him" or "I said him".


 
1) Is it the same for all the four examples above, f.i. that you would _never_ say "I suggest you to..."? (I realize I've been saying this lots of times...)

2) Is it so that you would never say this, event if you want to stress the pronoun? For example: "I told this story to him" (= not to her)?

Many thanks in advance.


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## geostan

LMorland said:


> Further, we say, *"He said to me to wait."*
> We cannot say, "He said me to wait".


I wouldn't use _say_ this way with a following infinitive. Correct or not, it is unidiomatic. Use _tel_l instead.



Chimel said:


> 1) Is it the same for all the four examples above, f.i. that you would _never_ say "I suggest you to..."? (I realize I've been saying this lots of times...)
> 
> 2) Is it so that you would never say this, event if you want to stress the pronoun? For example: "I told this story to him" (= not to her)?



For 1) _suggest_ requires a clause... I suggest that he do something (note the subjunctive)

As for 2), this word order is correct if indeed you wish to stress the pronoun.


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## Chimel

So, it's "I suggest that he do..." or "As I suggested to him,...", right?

Thanks anyway.


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## LMorland

Chimel said:


> So, it's "I suggest that he do..." or "As I suggested to him,...", right?


Yes, exactly! 

Further, we _can _say, *"He said to me to wait."* ​ 
We cannot say, "He said me to wait". 


geostan said:


> I wouldn't use _say_ this way with a following infinitive. Correct or not, it is unidiomatic. Use _tell _instead.


I agree with you, of course, Geostan. However, the phrase _can _be uttered without eyebrows being raised. (As opposed to "He said me", which cannot.) Here's an example that sounds more natural: "*He said to me* to _wait right here_ until he came back!"​although the below sounds more natural still:"*He told me* to _wait right here_ until he came back!​If we add a direct object, then it sounds completely idiomatic (in my opinion): "*He said that to me* when we were vacationing together in Greece."​[Alternatively, you could say: "*He told me that* when we were vacationing together in Greece."]​


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## Fetiches

Bonjour, 
Je m'interroge sur un détail. 
Pourquoi, dans cette phrase, dit-on _told the BBC_ et non pas _told *to* the BBC_.


In the event of a vote for Brexit, by 2018, houses could be worth up to 18% less than if the UK voted to remain, George Osborne told the BBC.
De quelle règle de grammaire il s'agit ?


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## JClaudeK

"to tell sb. = to say to sb.

Pas besoin de "to", "to tell" se construit avec un COD, pas un COI.


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## Maître Capello

Même si on dit _tell something *to* someone_, lorsque le COD est omis, le COI ne prend pas de préposition. On dit en effet : _He told the BBC_, mais : _He said *to* the BBC_.


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## Fetiches

Je vous remercie.


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