# שב בבקשה/ שבי בבקשה



## Konstantinos

Imperative to a man: שב בבקשה, sev vevakasa, sit please.

Imperative to a woman: שבי בבקשה, svi bevakasa, sit please.

Am I right?


----------



## arielipi

Shev and Shvi (or Shevi)
Bevakasha


----------



## Drink

In Modern Hebrew, "בבקשה" starts with a b-sound in both cases.


----------



## origumi

As notes above, you must be careful with s vs. sh - I know it's not simple for a native Greek.


----------



## Konstantinos

Thank you everyone for the help. I was listening in the first case *ve*vakasa and in the second *be*vakasa, so I was wondering why this is happening.

About s and sh, I cannot understand what is the difference. I believed both are the same. For example in oxford dictionaries, I listen see and she with very similar way, especially in US:

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/she_1?q=she#

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/see_1?q=see#


----------



## Drink

Konstantinos said:


> Thank you everyone for the help. I was listening in the first case *ve*vakasa and in the second *be*vakasa, so I was wondering why this is happening.
> 
> About s and sh, I cannot understand what is the difference. I believed both are the same. For example in oxford dictionaries, I listen see and she with very similar way, especially in US:
> 
> http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/she_1?q=she#
> 
> http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/see_1?q=see#



Yes, it's common for Greek speakers to have trouble distinguishing "s" and "sh". The difference is in where the tongue is: "s" is pronounced with the tip of the tongue touching the roof of the mouth near or touching the teeth, while "sh" is pronounced with the flat top of the tongue touching the back of the alveolar ridge close to the palate.


----------



## Konstantinos

Now, it is the first time I understand and I can say with my tongue both cases. Thank you Drink... But to tell you the truth, I have not understood the difference between ш and щ in Russian... This is similar with s and sh?


----------



## Drink

Konstantinos said:


> Now, it is the first time I understand and I can say with my tongue both cases. Thank you Drink... But to tell you the truth, I have not understood the difference between ш and щ in Russian... This is similar with s and sh?



Russian is complicated because it has four of these sounds: с, сь, ш, щ. The "с" is exactly the same as English "s", and "щ" is the closest to English "sh" (but not exactly the same); "сь" is like "s" but with the tongue much flatter, and "ш" is pronounced with the tip of the tongue behind the alveolar ridge.


----------



## Konstantinos

Nice... Maybe it is good to learn the IPA or something else? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet


----------



## airelibre

Drink said:


> Yes, it's common for Greek speakers to have trouble distinguishing "s" and "sh". The difference is in where the tongue is: "s" is pronounced with the tip of the tongue touching the roof of the mouth near or touching the teeth, while "sh" is pronounced with the flat top of the tongue touching the back of the alveolar ridge close to the palate.


Another thing, "sh" is pronounced with round lips by native English speakers, like in the vowel "u". This is to make it sound more different to "s", as it elongates the vocal tract.


----------



## Drink

airelibre said:


> Another thing, "sh" is pronounced with round lips by native English speakers, like in the vowel "u". This is to make it sound more different to "s", as it elongates the vocal tract.



I'm not sure if I agree with that. I don't notice any difference in my lips between "s" and "sh"; the lips simply follow the rounding of the next or previous vowel. Compare "she" with "see" and "shoe" with "soon".


----------



## airelibre

Drink said:


> I'm not sure if I agree with that. I don't notice any difference in my lips between "s" and "sh"; the lips simply follow the rounding of the next or previous vowel. Compare "she" with "see" and "shoe" with "soon".


It's what they teach in Phonetics classes, and in my experience it has at least some truth. Soon will have a rounded s because of the following round vowel. She has more rounding than see, even if not as much as shoe and soon. 

I assume it is a feature of US English, but I'm less sure if it is a feature of all languages with both of these sounds as separate phonemes. I also don't know how "native" you are in English and Russian. If you are equally native in both from birth, then I can't argue against your personal judgement.


----------



## Drink

airelibre said:


> It's what they teach in Phonetics classes, and in my experience it has at least some truth. Soon will have a rounded s because of the following round vowel. She has more rounding than see, even if not as much as shoe and soon.



I also tried "shun" and "sun", "shower" and "sour", etc. My lips are the same between each pair.



airelibre said:


> I assume it is a feature of US English, but I'm less sure if it is a feature of all languages with both of these sounds as separate phonemes. I also don't know how "native" you are in English and Russian. If you are equally native in both from birth, then I can't argue against your personal judgement.



No one speaks any language literally from birth. I was born and raised in the US. Russian was my first language (from when I was about a year old I guess) and was my only until I started preschool at age 3. By the time I was 5 (and probably well before that), my English was as good as that of anyone else my age.


----------



## airelibre

Drink said:


> I also tried "shun" and "sun", "shower" and "sour", etc. My lips are the same between each pair.
> 
> 
> 
> No one speaks any language literally from birth. I was born and raised in the US. Russian was my first language (from when I was about a year old I guess) and was my only until I started preschool at age 3. By the time I was 5 (and probably well before that), my English was as good as that of anyone else my age.



Fair enough.

This isn't something I've invented, here are some links:

Wiki:
"In various languages, including English and French, it may have simultaneous lip rounding, i.e. [ʃʷ], although this is usually not transcribed."
http://www.lipreading.org/lipreading-alphabet-middle-consonant
http://www.fact-index.com/l/li/lip_rounding.html
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...q=lip rounding postalveolar fricative&f=false


----------



## Drink

airelibre said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> This isn't something I've invented, here are some links:
> 
> Wiki:
> "In various languages, including English and French, it may have simultaneous lip rounding, i.e. [ʃʷ], although this is usually not transcribed."
> http://www.lipreading.org/lipreading-alphabet-middle-consonant
> http://www.fact-index.com/l/li/lip_rounding.html
> http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...q=lip rounding postalveolar fricative&f=false



I'm not accusing you of making it up; I'm just disagreeing. It could be that I'm not noticing it because I am forcing myself to pronounce these words rather than saying them naturally, it could be that it's just too slight for me to notice, it could be something that varies regionally, or the people who make this claim could be plain wrong. Who knows.


----------



## Konstantinos

Russian has 37 distinct consonant sounds: http://masterrussian.com/aa081201a.shtml

What about Hebrew? And how can I learn to pronounce distinct consonant sounds of any language? Only with speaking experience?


----------



## Drink

Konstantinos said:


> Russian has 37 distinct consonant sounds: http://masterrussian.com/aa081201a.shtml
> 
> What about Hebrew? And how can I learn to pronounce distinct consonant sounds of any language? Only with speaking experience?



I don't particularly like counting consonant sounds, since there are various issues you can come across in deciding whether something counts as one sound or two.

The Hebrew alphabet has 22 letters (all of them are consonants). One of these letters, the shin/sin (ש), actually represents two different consonants. Historically, each of these consonants was pronounced distinctly, but the sin was pronounced the same as the samech (ס), and if you go too far back in time, the situation gets even more complicated and less certain, so I won't bother you with it. Six of the letters (בגדכפת) had two variants, plosive and fricative, but represent the same etymological consonant, but in Modern Hebrew, three of these (גדת) lost their alternations. Also in Modern Hebrew, other consonants merged as well, except for some Sephardi speakers: א=ע,‎ ב=ו,‎ ח=כ,‎ ט=ת,‎ כּ=ק. There were also additional sounds introduced or reintroduced recently through other languages: ג',‎ וו/ו',‎ ז',‎ צ'. *This leaves the count for most speakers of Modern Israeli Hebrew at 24.* I will also note that now א/ע and ה are on the verge of completely disappearing and becoming silent, which would lower the count to 21.


----------



## Konstantinos

Very interesting... Thank you... And explain to me something else that I wonder. Hebrew was a disappeared language for many centuries. Without any saved audio record, how can we know the pronunciation of this language?


----------



## Drink

Konstantinos said:


> Very interesting... Thank you... And explain to me something else that I wonder. Hebrew was a disappeared language for many centuries. Without any saved audio record, how can we know the pronunciation of this language?



It stopped being an everyday spoken language, but it was preserved as a liturgical language by Jews all over the world.


----------



## berndf

Drink said:


> Yes, it's common for Greek speakers to have trouble distinguishing "s" and "sh". The difference is in where the tongue is: "s" is pronounced with the tip of the tongue touching the roof of the mouth near or touching the teeth, while "sh" is pronounced with the flat top of the tongue touching the back of the alveolar ridge close to the palate.


You describe the /s/ as apical (as e.g. in Iberian Spanish or Dutch) rather than as laminal (tip of the tongue touches the lower teeth and the sound producing constriction is formed between the blade of the tongue and the alveolar ridge). This strikes me as odd, certainly in English, but also in my understanding of modern Israeli Hebrew. In fact, the apical /s/ is relatively uncommon among language that phonemically distinguish between /s/ and /ʃ/. E.g., in Iberian Spanish, the apical /s/ developed only after the disappearance of /ʃ/ and in German, the apical /s/ merged either with the laminal /s/ or with /ʃ/, depending on position in the word, after the development of the /ʃ/ phoneme.


----------



## Drink

berndf said:


> You describe the /s/ as apical (as e.g. in Iberian Spanish or Dutch) rather than as laminal (tip of the tongue touches the lower teeth and the sound producing constriction is formed between the blade of the tongue and the alveolar ridge). This strikes me as odd, certainly in English, but also in my understanding of modern Israeli Hebrew. In fact, the apical /s/ is relatively uncommon among language that phonemically distinguish between /s/ and /ʃ/. E.g., in Iberian Spanish, the apical /s/ developed only after the disappearance of /ʃ/ and in German, the apical /s/ merged either with the laminal /s/ or with /ʃ/, depending on position in the word, after the development of the /ʃ/ phoneme.



You're right. If I were being a bit more technical, I would have said the "top of the tongue near the tip", rather than just the "tip".


----------



## berndf

Drink said:


> You're right. If I were being a bit more technical, I would have said the "top of the tongue near the tip", rather than just the "tip".


Thank you, my world is in order again.

It is actually part of the problem why it is difficult for Greeks to distinguish the sounds because the apical /s/ in quite common in Greek and the distinction between /s/ and /ʃ/ is difficult to maintain, if the /s/ is pronounced apically.


----------

