# Should we really help professionals?



## fitter.happier

I've tried raising the issue to a moderator in the past, but never really got an answer. I've also searched the forums and haven't seen this mentioned, so I figured I would bring this up.

What I find baffling is seeing professional translators asking for help on the forums. Don't get me wrong, you can't reasonably expect them to know everything about a specific language, and I'm all for giving a hand to people who are genuinely curious. 

However, if a professional translator perfectly understands the meaning of a sentence and merely asks for better ways to put it because they can't think hard enough, then I've got a problem with it.

I think most of us on WR are here because we're passionate about languages and we like helping people and getting help in return. We're not getting paid for it, and we do it out of sheer passion, curiosity, desire to learn new things, you name it.
 I feel, however, that some people deliberately take advantage of this. Again, there's nothing wrong with asking questions. But some people clearly state they've been asked to translate a text that they understand for the most part, but the translation they've come up with is not good enough for them, so they resort to WR. 

I believe this is unfair, and I wonder if we should really help these people who turn to WR out of laziness. 
Should we really do their job for them?


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## Peterdg

Honestly, I don't see the point. Why wouldn't we help professional translators if they have a question? It's not that we translate whole documents for them.


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## merquiades

Honestly, I have no problem helping them.  Remember they are professionals, experts and native speakers too, so they also help us out quite a bit too when we need them.


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## Egmont

They're usually open about who they are and what they want our help with. Nobody is forced to reply to their threads. Personally, I find some of their questions more interesting than the usual questions from beginners.


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## MrAbh

As you know, there are professionals all over the world belonging to different cultures. Sometimes, even knowing the whole phrase what could they possibly mean, it is necessary to see it's adherence/relevance to the culture of that country whom it is addressing to, I think that is the reason why some of the professionals tend to ask on the forum having completly understood the phrase. Besides WR forum has so many enthusiastic, active, knowledgeable people all over the world that people get proper responses to their querries.


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## Paulfromitaly

In the translation business, just like in any other field of expertise, there are very good and capable professionals but also incompetent ones, people who ask for the forum's help but at the same time are happy to give their contribution and people who log in, ask a question and immediately log out without even trying to see if they can answer other people's questions.
What can moderators do about it?
For example when I realise that a user is trying to exploit the forums (regardless of whether they are professionals or not) I point out what the WR rules clearly state:


> WordReference.com provides Forums for* exchanges* about translation,  word usage, terminology equivalency and other linguistic topics.
> The Forums promote learning and maintain an atmosphere that is  serious, academic and *collaborative*, with a respectful,* helpful* and  cordial tone.


We enforce the "no proofreading" rule that doesn't allow people to ask for plain proofreading and we usually invite those who just want us to "_take a look at their translation and see if it sounds okay to native speakers' ears_" to ask more specific questions.
You should also bear in mind that professional translators ask more challenging and therefore interesting questions than the usual, done-to-death "How do I say I love you in Italian??" and are usually able to answer queries that most of the other foreros aren't.
What I've gathered from my experience in the forums is that after a while lazy people can't get away with their attitude any more and they either change it or leave WR 

Another point: moderation is done mostly behind the scenes: people who don't comply with the WR rules or simply don't seem to understand the philosophy of WR are contacted by the mods via PM.


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## Vanda

I thank WR for helping me with my translations. There are cultural issues and regional usages we can't find anywhere but among natives. I help a lot of translators mainly with cultural aspects of our novels and songs they won't find them in any book. On the other hand I do expect someone to help me with a construction of  sentence, or making a sentence more English or teaching me details I won't find anywhere. Just one thing makes me mad: those translators that just appear in our forum when THEY need help but NEVER helps us when WE need them.


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## machadinho

I try to keep a balance between the questions I ask, and those I answer.
Maybe users should have a chart with bars proportional to how many questions they asked, and how many  they answered.

▄ █
q r

Increase _q_ by 1 if a user asks a question.
Increase _r_ by 1 upon a user's first reply to a thread.


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## ampurdan

Hi Machadinho:

I don't think it is a good idea to encourage posting in other people's threads in order to get answers in one's own.


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## Vanda

Ah, he never does that, Amp. He is a very good helper in the forums and rarely, very rarely he asks something for himself. He is one of our best collaborators.


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## ampurdan

No, no. I wasn't saying that he did that. I only think that what he proposed about the chart would encourage people to do that.


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## Outsider

Paulfromitaly said:


> [...] and people who log in, ask a question and immediately log out without even trying to see if they can answer other people's questions.


The funny thing about that kind of "clever" user (whether translator or not) is that I often get the impression that they're easily satisfied, and run off as soon as they get the first couple of replies to their question... without realising that sometimes the first replies are not the best ones.


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## Gévy

Bonjour,

Je trouve que les traducteurs professionnels ont le même droit que les autres de demander de l'aide. On ne peut pas toujours tout savoir : les idées des autres et leurs connaissances spécifiques sont les bienvenues et un grand soulagement pour celui qui cherche et ne trouve pas.

Quelquefois on bloque sur une expression, on ne sait plus comment formuler la phrase de façon élégante. C'est normal, et je ne vois pas pourquoi nous n'aurions pas droit à l'aide des autres. Doit-on nous punir parce qu'on est des professionnels et qu'on sait reconnaître nos limitations et crier au secours ? 

C'est mieux que ceux qui se croient possesseurs de la seule et unique bonne réponse. Ou de ceux (nombreux ici, malheureusement) qui se prennent pour des traducteurs et ne savent pas bâtir une phrase qui tienne debout.

À partir du moment où on ne demande pas plusieurs mots de la phrase, ni plusieurs phrases d'un paragraphe, et qu'on fait soi-même l'effort de traduire, d'expliquer ce qui bloque et pourquoi, d'échanger véritablement avec les autres, sans les prendre pour des esclaves qui feront notre boulot à notre place, je ne vois pas pourquoi exclure les professionnels. Au contraire. Ce forum est sérieux et offre de bonnes solutions. C'est ce qui nous attire. Ça va dans les deux sens, on demande, on répond aux autres : on prend et on offre.

Sinon, à quoi servent ces forums ? Des cours en ligne il y en a beaucoup et ce n'est pas le but. Des forums d'aide à la traduction qui soient bons (je parle de qualité) et généreux, il n'y en a pas beaucoup. Et les normes du forum mettent des limites pour éviter les abus.

J'espère que WR continuera à nous offrir ici, tant aux pros qu'aux amateurs, cet échange linguistique qui nous est indipensable, bénéfique et si enrichissant.

Bisous,

Gévy


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## rusita preciosa

I also don't see your point, fitter-happier. What is the problem with professional translators using our collective knowledge and willingness/ability to help? (I personally am as far as can be from professional translation myself, this forum is 100% hobby for me). After all, it is your personal choice not to respond to questions from professionals if you feel strongly about that.

In addition, I don't see how locking professionals out can realistically be enforced. So you institute a "no-professionals" policy, then people just won't reveal they need help for work, they say it is for "sheer passion, curiosity, desire to learn new things".


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## bondia

I'm not a professional translator, either, and answer many more questions than I ask. I believe (good) translation to be a very demanding job and it doesn't surprise me that those people who make their living this way don't have much time to help others and if you've been translating all day, the last place you feel like visiting in your spare time is a language forum.
I agree with rusita that to exclude professionals would lead to them concealing their "motives".


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## LilianaB

I agree. I would always help with any question I could help with. The only thing is, I am sometimes scared that some people might be translating very serious medical or technical texts having absolutely no clue what they mean. I just hope they are doing this out of curiosity not for any professional purposes, because this is really scary. I love helping --  it is fun. Also some of the texts that people need help with are really low quality in the original (if this is really the original, or sometimes machine translation from another language).


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## Vanda

But the problem is those translators  (the ones I 've mentioned above - a little number of them) seeking for help ONLY appear when THEY need help, NEVER to help. I am a translator myself, and work almost all day long and I do have time to help those in need. Just observe the number of posts I have, I can say only 10% was for myself, the others to people in need.


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## Paulfromitaly

rusita preciosa said:


> I also don't see your point, fitter-happier. What is the problem with professional translators using our collective knowledge and willingness/ability to help?



I think fitter-happier has nothing against professionals who _use_ the forum in a fair manner (that is, they ask and give help equally), he's just wondering whether it's okay for professionals to _exploit_ the forums, either out of their own laziness or because they're trying to misrepresent their expertise in the eyes of their employers


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## 涼宮

LilianaB said:


> I agree. I would always help with any question I could help with. The only thing is, I am sometimes scared that some people might be translating very serious medical or technical texts having absolutely no clue what they mean. I just hope they are doing this out of curiosity not for any professional purposes, because this is really scary. I love helping --  it is fun. Also some of the texts that people need help with are really low quality in the original (if this is really the original, or sometimes machine translation from another language).



Are you sure you used the correct adjective? What's _*scary*_ about translating technical texts one doesn't understand? I don't see how that could frighten you. Could you explain to me?


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## Víctor Pérez

fitter.happier said:


> I think most of us on WR are here because we're passionate about languages and we like helping people and getting help in return. We're not getting paid for it, and we do it out of sheer passion, curiosity, desire to learn new things, you name it.
> *I feel, however, that some people deliberately take advantage of this.*


I hope so, that's why we are here!



fitter.happier said:


> But some people clearly state they've been asked to translate a text that they understand for the most part, *but the translation they've come up with is not good enough for them*, so they resort to WR.


That's quite honest from them.



fitter.happier said:


> I believe this is unfair, and I wonder if we should really help these people who turn to WR out of laziness.


The fact that we try to help professionals is what gives to WR the prestige it already has. 
Generally, a good translator knows perfectly one of the two languages he deals with, and quite well the other one. It's absolutely normal that, sometimes, he could have a doubt about a shade of meaning in a word, an expression or a sentence. That's when native people of that language take part. It's nothing wrong with it and, of course, nothing to do with the laziness.      





fitter.happier said:


> Should we really do their job for them?


I'm not a translator but, sometimes, I had to translate for friends and acquaintances, and I can tell you that it's really not always easy. It's even a hard job, specially when you live on it. So, believe me, when we help a professional, we don't do at all his job.


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## bondia

涼宮 said:


> Are you sure you used the correct adjective? What's _*scary*_ about translating technical texts one doesn't understand? I don't see how that could frighten you. Could you explain to me?




What LilianaB meant is that if a technical text, such as an instruction manual (which are often unintelligible, in English at least) is badly translated it could be dangerous. Not to mention legal or medical papers. So the idea scares her, hence the use of scary.


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## Vanda

I do understand fitter fears, actually there are some pseudo-translators who take advantage of our help. They take a job they are not skilled for and let us do the work for them, spreading separately in days or hours the sentences of their translations, but they are just a few and WR foreros realize it in 3 times and don't go for it- as I have seen in these few cases.


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## 涼宮

bondia said:


> What LilianaB meant is that if a technical text, such as an instruction manual (which are often unintelligible, in English at least) is badly translated it could be dangerous. Not to mention legal or medical papers. So the idea scares her, hence the use of scary.



But I don't really think there is someone idiot enough to offer a professional translation of a technical text without knowing a thing about it, it's ethics. Or is there?


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## rusita preciosa

涼宮 said:


> But I don't really think there is someone idiot enough to offer a professional translation of a technical text without knowing a thing about it, it's ethics. Or is there?


Oh you'd be surprised. I see people here happily offer their advice without the slightest idea of what they are talking about. 

Speaking of ethics, however, the professional translator has to understand that this is a free public forum ans not everything they read on the Internet is the ultimate truth. After all, it is *not* liability of these who give advice, the translator is responsible for how he uses something he finds online.


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## rusita preciosa

Paulfromitaly said:


> I think fitter-happier has nothing against professionals who _use_ the forum in a fair manner (that is, they ask and give help equally), he's just wondering whether it's okay for professionals to _exploit_ the forums, either out of their own laziness or because they're trying to misrepresent their expertise in the eyes of their employers


Well, But what can be done about that? Someone earlier proposed to post q/a ratio for each participant, but that would only increase the number of meaningless posts when people "answer" someone's question just to bring their A number up. We have enough of these here from people who post just to "hear themselves talk".

I think it is up to each participant to decide for themselves: if you see someone "abusing" the resource and posting only Qs, just ignore their questions.


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## bondia

rusita preciosa said:


> I think it is up to each participant to decide for themselves: if you see someone "abusing" the resource and posting only Qs, just ignore their questions.



Easier said than done, rusita. I can't imagine any of us checking the Question/Answer rating of a member before offering an answer. a) because we don't have that much time to spare, and b) because it's not really our function. I have answered some myself, and have reported others.
I think it's more a matter of interpreting the manner in which the questions are posed. I must say that recently I've seen a lot of the typical one line questions without context, at least when I'm online.
Whatever, I don't know about other Forums, but I reckon WRF is about as good as can be.


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## rusita preciosa

bondia said:


> Easier said than done, rusita.


As in everything, it depends on how strongly one feels about the issue doesn't it. The ones who are determined not to help the "abusers", would go through extra effort checking. The ones who don't care that much, would not have spare time for that. Matter of personal preference. 

I realize checking can be much more difficult in larger forums like English or Spanish, but Russian/Italian etc. must be manageable enough that you start "knowing" people there and seeing if they offer anything in exchange (or not).


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## bondia

rusita preciosa said:


> I realize checking can be much more difficult in larger forums like English or Spanish, but Russian/Italian etc. must be manageable enough that you start "knowing" people there and seeing if they offer anything in exchange (or not).



Yes, I'm sure that's true.


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## LilianaB

Yes, I meant exactly what Bondia said. If the person shows that they have absolutely no clue what the manual or a medical procedure description is about, not even the vaguest, I hope they are not translating the text professionally, but sometimes I have a feeling they might. It does not look, by the way the questions are formulated, that they are just interested in the meaning of particular phrases, but rather how to translate them.

I personally did not see any people here who have absolutely no clue about things and are giving advice: they may have wrong ideas sometimes, but I haven't seen too many people who don't know anything and are tying to say something. I have seen many questions, especially related to technical texts and medicine, which looked like questions for people who were doing the translations for a client, and they had absolutely no idea what the text was about, not just separate phrases.

I don't think anything can be done about it, nor even that it should, because it is beyond the scope of this site to catch unprofessional translators. I just hope they understand that because of their translations people may die.

If you give something, don't expect to get anything back, otherwise, just don't give.


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## dreamlike

I fully concur with the points made by Paulfromitalia in #6th post - maintaining a good balance between asking for solution to one's problems and contributing oneself is vital to me. 

I am also compelled to point out, and I mean no disrespect, that I'm distraught at the command of English of some professional (by name only, it would seem) translators. I don't have anyone specific in mind, of course, I just sometimes happen to read threads (started by professional translators, after all) written in such a sloppy language that I have a hard time believing the person is really a translator. Their career on this forum usually ends after two posts, so it's no big loss. 



bondia said:


> I'm not a professional translator, either, and  answer many more questions than I ask. I believe (good) translation to  be a very demanding job and it doesn't surprise me that those people who  make their living this way don't have much time to help others and if  you've been translating all day, the last place you feel like visiting  in your spare time is a language forum.


The same can be said of many other jobs. Professional translators are not the only ones working hard - I'm not downplaying the effort required in their job - I'm bent on becoming a simultaneous interpreter myself.


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## k-in-sc

I see plenty of "professional" or at least paid translators who are clearly in over their heads and plenty of others who are just lazy and taking advantage. The first kind don't last long and the second kind don't get any more help than they deserve. But every answer could also help someone else, and ultimately that is the goal.


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