# la perfide Albion?



## JoJo

"La perfide Albion"  It is a slang term for the UK, but what does it mean?


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## Cath.S.

Hello, Jojo,
first of all it is not slang at all, but is is derogatory.
perfide = treacherous, untrustworthy
Albion = Albion, poetical term for Great-Britain
Julius Cesar named it thus, on first seeing the white cliffs of Dover (white= albus/a/um in Latin)


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## fetchezlavache

it's most definitely not slang. but derogatory yes. it's a 'traditional' name for england, coming from 





> Alba  [alaba] Ecosse ; à l'origine, ce nom désignait pour les Irlandais la (Grande) Bretagne, emploi que l'on retrouve en français : la perfide Albion



and perfide means perfidious, traitorous... 

allusion to the fact that france and england were enemies for centuries !


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## fetchezlavache

hehehe egueule. même choix de termes. great minds, etc...


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## Gil

egueule said:
			
		

> Hello, Jojo,
> first of all it is not slang at all, but is is derogatory.
> perfide = treacherous, untrustworthy
> Albion = Albion, poetical term for Great-Britain
> Julius Cesar named it thus, on first seeng the white cliffs of Dover (white= albus/a/um in Latin)



Certains disent que le  nom remonterait au temps de Ptolémée en dépit de l'explication étymologique d'egueule (qui me semble valable comme d'habitude...)

Hibernie, nom par lequel les auteurs classiques grecs et romains désignaient l'Irlande. La forme grecque (Ierne) fut utilisée la première fois par Aristote, qui mentionne deux îles dans l'océan Atlantique, au-delà des colonnes d'Hercule (détroit de Gibraltar) appelées Albion (la Grande-Bretagne) et Ierne. L'auteur classique le plus important qui parla d'Hibernie fut Ptolémée, lequel fournit une description remarquablement précise du pays, y compris le nom de ses principaux fleuves, promontoires, ports maritimes et villes intérieures. Ni les Grecs ni les Romains n'y établirent de colonie. (Encyclopédie Encarta)

Pour la perfidie, il faudrait demander aux fils de la fille aînée de l'Église.


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## zinc

My understanding is that "perfide" refers to our reputation for sneakiness and general dastardly behaviour towards our European friends in the 18th century. Something to do with dashing English gentlemen sweeping French dames off their feet, much to the chagrin of their French husbands.


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## Cath.S.

> Hibernie, nom par lequel les auteurs classiques grecs et romains désignaient l'Irlande. La forme grecque (Ierne) fut utilisée la première fois par Aristote, qui mentionne deux îles dans l'océan Atlantique, au-delà des colonnes d'Hercule (détroit de Gibraltar) appelées Albion (la Grande-Bretagne) et Ierne. L'auteur classique le plus important qui parla d'Hibernie fut Ptolémée, lequel fournit une description remarquablement précise du pays, y compris le nom de ses principaux fleuves, promontoires, ports maritimes et villes intérieures. Ni les Grecs ni les Romains n'y établirent de colonie. (Encyclopédie Encarta)


Très intéressant, Gil. Donc l'appellation n'a pas été inventée par César. L'étymologie elle-même semble convaincante, mais sait-on jamais.


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## Carlos Martínez Riera

zinc said:
			
		

> My understanding is that "perfide" refers to our reputation for sneakiness and general dastardly behaviour towards our European friends in the 18th century. Something to do with dashing English gentlemen sweeping French dames off their feet, much to the chagrin of their French husbands.


I had more or less the same understanding, but I was told the story from a Spanish perspective:

The adjective 'perfide' (or 'pérfida' in Spanish) was coined (or, at least, became inextricably tied to 'Albion') during the 16th century when tensions between the Spanish kings, champions of the Catholic faith rule on Earth, and the heretic English souvereigns, outbroke, once again, into open hostilities leading to the --yet another one, Anglo-Spanish war of 1585-88. The fact that the Spaniards were defeated at that occasion and the memories of many previous and future affronts, among which the divorce of a queen of the Catholic Kings of Spain was not the least of those offences, only contributed, even more, to fix the epithet next to to the peioratve term of Albion.

Anyway, be because of the sweeping of French dames, or because of shameful defeats of Invencible Armadas, there seemed to be a pretty good consensus among the Albion's neighbouring Nations about the qualification that better fitted their common enemy.

Carlos


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## DDT

According to another legend, Albion was the last king of Atlantis establishing his reign in present UK after the end of his previous one. He was the progenitor of Druids...
And the "perfide" might have been "created" during the French Revolution...who knows in the end...   

DDT


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## Focalist

The expression "perfidious Albion" (French, la perfide Albion; German, perfides Albion) -- referring to the alleged underhandedness of British foreign policy -- derives from a poem, published in 1793, by Augustin Marquis de Ximenez. The phrase came to prominence as part of a large-scale military recruiting campaign launched by Napoléon I in 1813. German use of the expression became widespread in the reign of Wilhelm II (1888--1918).

F


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## zinc

Focalist said:
			
		

> The expression "perfidious Albion" (French, la perfide Albion; German, perfides Albion) -- referring to the alleged underhandedness of British foreign policy -- derives from a poem, published in 1793, by Augustin Marquis de Ximenez. F


 Yes, and I believe he was prompted to write the poem after discovering his wife had fallen for a handsome English gentleman after she had observed his fearless swordplay in a local duel. At least, that's what it says in my copy of "Boy's Own Guide to English History".


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## Focalist

Some more boring old facts. (Sorry, zinc )

The usual etymology of albus (white), said to have been given by Julius Cæsar in allusion to the "white cliffs," is untenable, as an old Greek treatise formerly ascribed to Aristotle mentions the islands of Albion and Ierne three hundred years before Cæsar's landing. Probably "Albion" or Albany was the Celtic name of all Great Britain, subsequently restricted to Scotland (_Alba_ in Irish and Scots Gaelic). Certainly the inhabitants of the whole island are implied in the word Albiones in Festus Avienus's account of the voyage of Hamilcar in the fifth century B.C.

F


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## RODGER

I think the origin of this perceived "perfidiousness" lies in the extraordinary facility for irony of the English language, which so temptingly allows us to say one thing while we mean another, as well as tone, inflection and allusion not always being picked up by non-native speakers. For example what is the french for "arch" as in manner ? Harraps is certainly way off target here !

Rodger


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## JeremyC

RODGER said:
			
		

> I think the origin of this perceived "perfidiousness" lies in the extraordinary facility for irony of the English language, which so temptingly allows us to say one thing while we mean another, as well as tone, inflection and allusion not always being picked up by non-native speakers. For example what is the french for "arch" as in manner ? Harraps is certainly way off target here !
> 
> Rodger



Sorry Rodger, but we Brits didn't win our Empire (from the French, the Spanish and the Dutch, never mind the inhabitants themselves of the countries we conquered) by using irony! We were as perfidious as any other European power in the 17th, 18th & 19th centuries - just better at it and so deserving of the title. I dare say there's some who think we deserve it still . . .


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## Jabote

JeremyC said:
			
		

> Sorry Rodger, but we Brits didn't win our Empire (from the French, the Spanish and the Dutch, never mind the inhabitants themselves of the countries we conquered) by using irony! We were as perfidious as any other European power in the 17th, 18th & 19th centuries - just better at it and so deserving of the title. I dare say there's some who think we deserve it still . . .


 
YEAH, I DO !!! YOU PERFIDIOUS BRITS, YOU BURNED JOAN OF ARC !!!!!


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## JeremyC

You deserved it - you sent us William the Conqueror!!


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## Jabote

JeremyC said:
			
		

> You deserved it - you sent us William the Conqueror!!


 
Now THAT was a low blow... SEE ? SEE HOW PERFIDIOUS YOU STILL ARE ????


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## Sev

> YEAH, I DO !!! YOU PERFIDIOUS BRITS, YOU BURNED JOAN OF ARC !!!!!





> You deserved it - you sent us William the Conqueror!!


 
he he, toujours aussi cordiale l'entente !!


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## Jabote

Sev said:
			
		

> he he, toujours aussi cordiale l'entente !!


 
Et c'est reparti pour CENT ANS !!!


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## Focalist

Jabote said:
			
		

> YEAH, I DO !!! YOU PERFIDIOUS BRITS, YOU BURNED JOAN OF ARC !!!!!


No, that was the Bishop of Beauvais (Pierre Cauchon -- not the most of British of names ), although Joan *was* handed over to him by the English*, who had bought her from the Burgundians, who had captured her while attacking Compiegne.

* English, mind you -- not "Brits". The latter had not been invented in 1431; the country of Great Britain only dates back to 1707, 276 years after Bishop Cauchon burned Joan.

F


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## Jabote

Focalist said:
			
		

> No, that was the Bishop of Beauvais (Pierre Cauchon -- not the most of British of names ), although Joan *was* handed over to him by the English*, who had bought her from the Burgundians, who had captured her while attacking Compiegne.


 
THANK YOU Focalist, I DID know that indeed ! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But maybe you are not aware of the fact that "Les Anglais ont brûlé Jeanne d'Arc" is what many French people say nowadays just for the sake of saying something funny...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






			
				Focalist said:
			
		

> * English, mind you -- not "Brits". The latter had not been invented in 1430; the country of Great Britain only dates back to 1707, 276 years after Bishop Cauchon burned Joan.
> 
> F


 
Thanks again but I used Brits because Jeremy had used Brits...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




And in case anyone wonders further, NO ! I do NOT REALLY think that Brits or English are any more perfidious than any other people on planet Earth...


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## Focalist

Jabote said:
			
		

> maybe you are not aware of the fact that "Les Anglais ont brûlé Jeanne d'Arc" is what many French people say nowadays just for the sake of saying something funny...


 Sorry -- this is Italian-tank-and-reverse-gears territory, though, isn't it? We'd better be careful what we say! 

A better joke, though, is:

L'Anglais avec son éternel sang-froid
The Englishman with his eternal bloody cold​F


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## Jabote

Focalist said:
			
		

> Sorry -- this is Italian-tank-and-reverse-gears territory, though, isn't it? We'd better be careful what we say!
> 
> A better joke, though, is:
> 
> 
> L'Anglais avec son éternel sang-froid
> 
> The Englishman with his eternal bloody cold​F



Love this one !
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



ORFL... I mean ROFL...


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## JeremyC

Jabote said:
			
		

> Thanks again but I used Brits because Jeremy had used Brits...



And Jeremy used "Brits" because he was talking about the creation of the British Empire (in which the dastardly English got more than a little help from their Welsh, Scots and Irish counterparts/neighbours/what-have-you) and got carried away in the heat of the moment. Please accept my apologies for the terminological inexactitude of my previous post . . .


Anyway, la Bourgogne cannot possibly be perfide - it's wine is far too good!!

P.S. How do you put smileys in posts? - my Mac won't let me decorate my posts at all! Anyone else having trouble, or got any advice?


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## RODGER

Thanks Focalist, smack on there and remember Jabote, the French did also send us Johnny Hallyday !!!!!!!!!! 

Rodger


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## JoséLyon

I clicked on that topic because I was interested in the etymology of Albion. The first part of this thread is very consistant but as soon as Jabote came, it turned into something un-interesting and very childish (ans MOST boring !).

PLEASE, could someone (any moderator ?) delete the 2nd part of the thraed ? Thanks !


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## Freganind

JeremyC said:


> You deserved it - you sent us William the Conqueror!!



I protest : William the Conqueror was a Norman, not a French. The Normans were Vikings, the King of France had given them Normandy for stopping them massacring the poor French people and in exchange for the protection of the Kingdom from further viking invasions ("it's hard enough with you, thank you"). But a Viking is a Viking : they got bored and they eventually crossed the Channel. We have nothing to do with that.

JoséLyon, I'm sorry if you don't like the squabbles between the French and the English (or the Brittish) but it's inevitable, otherwise it wouldn't be us. 
I personally find this topic funny  and instructive : I didn't know that also the Spaniards have this old resentment against the Albion perfidy (I knew about Gibraltar but it seems broader).


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## Pedro y La Torre

Freganind said:


> I protest : William the Conqueror was a Norman, not a French. The Normans were Vikings, the King of France had given them Normandy for stopping them massacring the poor French people and in exchange for the protection of the Kingdom from further viking invasions ("it's hard enough with you, thank you"). But a Viking is a Viking : they got bored and they eventually crossed the Channel. We have nothing to do with that.



A French-speaker calling himself Guillaume sounds pretty French to me!


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## franc 91

Pedro a chara - Guillaume definitely was Norman, but as we well know when the Normans settled in somewhere they were adept at becoming more local than the locals. There are a great number of placenames in Normandie that end in - ville (that's the French part) but the first part is usually the name of the Norman warrior who took possession of the place. Apparently they very quickly adopted the 'Norman' French language just as they adopted Irish in Ireland.  The Normans are said to be Danish in origin and the red-haired Vikings from Norway.


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## petit1

I had always thought that the origin of Albion was the feminine form of the Latin adjective "albus - alba" which means "white", an allusion to the white cliffs of the British coast.


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## Gil

See post #12


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## petit1

Thank you , Gil. There were so many posts that I missed that one.


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