# Habemus papam!



## Everness

After white smoke comes out of the chimney, a senior cardinal will announce from the balcony of St. Peter's Basilica, "Annuntio vobis gaudium magnum. Habemus papam" -- "I announce to you news of great joy. We have a pope." But who will it be?  

A previous thread about the chances of a black pope being elected went south and degenerated into a discussion about polls and stats. I still believe that the election of the pope has immense importance. It will affect the lives of the Roman Catholic Church - the largest branch of Christianity - with a total of 1.086 billion baptized members around the globe, a figure that is expected to exceed the 1.1 billion this year. But it also affect the entire world. 

According to the BBC, _*the Americas* have the lion's share of baptised Catholics, with 49.8%  (approx  541 million); *Europe *accounts for 25.8% (approx 282 million); *Africa  *has 13.2% of the total (approx 143 million);  Asia   -  10.4% (approx 113 million);  *Oceania *-  0.8% (approx 9 million).

_Should the pope come from the continent where most Catholics live? Will the cardinals take into account this fact when selecting the next pope? Or are there other issues that take precedence over demographic considerations?


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## Lancel0t

Everness said:
			
		

> After white smoke comes out of the chimney, a senior cardinal will announce from the balcony of St. Peter's Basilica, "Annuntio vobis gaudium magnum. Habemus papam" -- "I announce to you news of great joy. We have a pope." But who will it be?
> 
> A previous thread about the chances of a black pope being elected went south and degenerated into a discussion about polls and stats. I still believe that the election of the pope has immense importance. It will affect the lives of the Roman Catholic Church - the largest branch of Christianity - with a total of 1.086 billion baptized members around the globe, a figure that is expected to exceed the 1.1 billion this year. But it also affect the entire world.
> 
> According to the BBC, _*the Americas* have the lion's share of baptised Catholics, with 49.8%  (approx  541 million); *Europe *accounts for 25.8% (approx 282 million); *Africa  *has 13.2% of the total (approx 143 million);  Asia   -  10.4% (approx 113 million);  *Oceania *-  0.8% (approx 9 million).
> 
> _Should the pope come from the continent where most Catholics live? Will the cardinals take into account this fact when selecting the next pope? Or are there other issues that take precedence over demographic considerations?




If my memory serves correct, I heard on our local news that before Pope John Paul II was chosen to be the next pope, he is not even included on the top list. The reason why he was chosen is because of the intervention of the Holy Spirit in which the cardinals saw and used as a basis in selecting the new Pope.

 Therefore they should not consider any of those criterias you mentioned above but instead they should ask the guidance of the Holy Spirit in selecting the person to be the next Pope.  IMHO of course.


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## mddb

Everness said:
			
		

> Or are there other issues that take precedence over demographic considerations?


 
 How naif is that comment, i if may dare saying so ! 
(with all my respect to you, of course)

Of course there will be other concerns on "electing" the next Pope; in my opinion, it is a matter of balance of power between:

- Conservatives and progresists (as far as Catholic priests can be progresists, which is not much, moreover considering they have crushed the Liberation Theology, the most recent progresist movement in their church)
- Italians and non-italians: John Paul II was the 1st non-italian pope in 4 centuries, and many vatican "aparatchik" will certainly want the Pope to be Italian again.
- the different catholic sects (Opus Dei and others)

Thinking in terms of power struggles is far more productive than any other consideration when trying to interpret or foresee what will happen with this, or with any other large organisation, IMHO of course.


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## Everness

This is an interesting topic: _Language may be key for next pope_

http://www.boston.com/news/world/articles/2005/04/15/language_may_be_key_for_next_pope/


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## Artrella

How an interesting article Everness!! I really enjoyed reading it... and confirming what I have always thought, languages are great, they allow you to get to people, to know what their problems are... languages open minds... ohh I'm a language-freak... I'm not objective at all!!
What I really loved about this article it this...

_''I speak to you in your -- no, *our* language," he said humbly from the papal balcony. *''If I make a mistake, correct me."* _

We should learn this from Juan Pablo II.


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## Everness

It's official! Habemus papam!


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## Jana337

Ratzinger, Benedetto XVI.

Jana


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## el alabamiano

Viva il Papa!​


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## Jana337

el alabamiano said:
			
		

> Viva il Papa!​



Why are you so boisterous? What hopes do you associate with him?

Jana


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## el alabamiano

Jana337 said:
			
		

> Why are you so boisterous? What hopes do you associate with him?Jana


boisterous?

Not a good word choice unless you're angry about the selection of the new pope.

Try jubilant!  I'm jubliant because I admired Pope John Paul II and I believe Pope Benedict will follow in his footsteps.


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## Jana337

el alabamiano said:
			
		

> boisterous?
> 
> Not a good word choice unless you're angry about the selection of the new pope.
> 
> Try jubilant! I'm jubliant because I admired Pope John Paul II and I believe Pope Benedict will follow in his footsteps.



OK, jubilant is a much better word than boisterous. I am not exactly angry but not really excited either. However, I have a deep respect for your feelings.

Jana


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## beigatti

I would like to know what the Germans think of the new German Pope?  I am excited...just because there are so few popes in my lifetime.  I expected Ratzinger as he will be a "transitional" pope with, I expect..an 8-10 year reign.  

Personally I was hoping for a pope from Africa or South America...where most Catholics seem to now live.

Jo-Ann


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## Whodunit

Everness said:
			
		

> It's official! Habemus papam!



Well, I don't know if it is a good choice. In Germany—and Ratzinger is German—is quite controversial. He seems to be a little "gruff". I really don't know if it IS a good choice, but the cardinals have chosen him as the new pope and I think it very depends on how he will rule the Christian world.


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## cuchuflete

whodunit said:
			
		

> Well, I don't know if it is a good choice. In Germany—and Ratzinger is German—is quite controversial. He seems to be a little "gruff". I really don't know if it IS a good choice, but the cardinals have chosen him as the new pope and I think it very *depends on how he will rule the Christian world*.



Hi Who,

Much of the Christian world, including millions of nominal Catholics, will not be ruled by this Pope.  It will be interesting to see what he may be able and willing to do to stop the collapse of his church.

Those are strong words, but the reality seems to be that a growing number of Catholics have only a nominal affiliation with their church.  The lack of clergy is a severe problem for many congregations.

The new Pope has given strong signs that his view of dogma is not apt to change.  I don't know if that is related to shrinking congregations and the lack of seminarians.

Where I live, congregations are being consolidated, Catholic schools and churches closed.  I've read that similar things are happening in Europe.

What do you think is causing this?  Can the Pope do anything about it?


regards,
Cuchu


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## Everness

Nice and short profile of our new pope (Lo bueno, si breve dos veces bueno -Gracian)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/profile/


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## beigatti

I just read that he is the 8th German pope....who were the others?

Jo-Ann


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## Whodunit

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Where I live, congregations are being consolidated, Catholic schools and churches closed.  I've read that similar things are happening in Europe.
> 
> What do you think is causing this?  Can the Pope do anything about it?



Well, I don't know what I should answer. In Germany, the number of Christians drops more and more: There are no more churches built and RE (religion eduction) is no longer taught where I live. But the news is full of information about the pope, although here is relatively little number of Christians that goes to mass. I can't remember of any congregation that's "born" here. Is it negative?


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## Edwin

whodunit said:
			
		

> Well, I don't know what I should answer. In Germany, the number of Christians drops more and more: There are no more churches built and RE (religion eduction) is no longer taught where I live. But the news is full of information about the pope, although here is relatively little number of Christians that goes to mess. I can't remember of any congregation that's "born" here. Is it negative?



And probably not too many who go to *mass* either.  [Sorry I couldn't resist.]


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## asm

Sorry, for me this is not a good choice. But what can I do?



			
				whodunit said:
			
		

> Well, I don't know if it is a good choice. In Germany—and Ratzinger is German—is quite controversial. He seems to be a little "gruff". I really don't know if it IS a good choice, but the cardinals have chosen him as the new pope and I think it very depends on how he will rule the Christian world.


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## asm

This will never be the citeria to chose a Pope (population). This church is very European and they are scared to death if they choose someone from the outside. LatinAmerica and Africa are places to "evangelize", but not places to share the  helm with.
I think Ratzinger will not be the Pope for the new millenium, and I do not know how he will manage all the problems he has even in Europe where churches are empty. 




			
				beigatti said:
			
		

> I would like to know what the Germans think of the new German Pope? I am excited...just because there are so few popes in my lifetime. I expected Ratzinger as he will be a "transitional" pope with, I expect..an 8-10 year reign.
> 
> Personally I was hoping for a pope from Africa or South America...where most Catholics seem to now live.
> 
> Jo-Ann


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## Everness

asm said:
			
		

> This will never be the citeria to chose a Pope (population). This church is very European and they are scared to death if they choose someone from the outside. LatinAmerica and Africa are places to "evangelize", but not places to share the  helm with.



I'm not Catholic but I agree with your stand. I don't think that the new concept of globalization needs to be applied to theology. Why? Because this has been the standard in theological reflection for thousands of years. Europe has been the center of the Christian universe. The concept of contextualization of theology was never taken seriously: What's good for Europe (or for the United States) is good for the rest of the churches in the Second and Third World. Theology and ethics are the same across cultures. The principle of one-size-fits-all proves that ethnocentrism applies to religious groups and not only ethnic groups.


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## Artrella

> Originally Posted by asm
> This will never be the criteria to choose a Pope (population). This church is very European and they are scared to death if they choose someone from the outside. LatinAmerica and Africa are places to "evangelize", but not places to share the helm with.



I fully agree asm...   That's why I don't like the "Church-business".  I believe in God, nothing else.


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## Whodunit

Edwin said:
			
		

> And probably not too many who go to *mass* either.  [Sorry I couldn't resist.]



Of course, it had to be "mass". What a meaningful sentence I wrote.


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## abc

who,

Mess and mass probably are related. Anyway, it was amusing to see _mess_ in that particular context.

---

I was hoping that an African cardinal would be elected. Nevertheless, I shall respect our new pope and pray for his well-being.


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## Cath.S.

abc said:
			
		

> who,
> 
> Mess and mass probably are related. Anyway, it was amusing to see _mess_ in that particular context.
> 
> ---
> 
> I was hoping that an African cardinal would be elected. Nevertheless, I shall respect our new pope and pray for his well-being.


In French mass(the ceremony) = la messe
la masse = mass ( as in mass media)
So French speakers are also likely to make that mistake in English! 
Even though I'm not a practising Catholic (I'm an agnostic), I was personally hoping for a pope from a Latin American country.


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## Whodunit

egueule said:
			
		

> In French mass(the ceremony) = la messe
> la masse = mass ( as in mass media)
> So French speakers are also likely to make that mistake in English!
> Even though I'm not a practising Catholic (I'm an agnostic), I was personally hoping for a pope from a Latin American country.



In German:
die Messe = the mass
die Masse = the masses

That's why I made this mistake.


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## Benjy

mmm random question: lots of people talk about the cardinals choice of pope. nut isn't this man supposed to be the representative of god on earth and as such shouldn't god have had a say somewhere along the line? how do most catholics consider the pope to be choosen? by man or god?

ps i don't want this question to turn into a troll fest. i don't want my question to be percieved as a dig at the catholic church either. maybe i'll start a new thread


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## Everness

I found this letter intellectually fascinating. 

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ed...cles/2005/04/24/the_dictatorship_of_idolatry/

 Particularly this sentence:

_The new occupant of Peter's Chair does not seem to realize that the opposite of a ''dictatorship of relativism" can be the idolatry of assuming that one church, one person (an illusion to papal infallibility), or one government can have the truth in hand, and thus speak for truth without danger of error._

It's true that religions are dogmatic. There are dogmas that need to be fully embraced. According to the Bible, you can't say that you are Christian and believe in whatever you want to believe or behave the way you want to behave.  But the pastor's point in this article is that "dictatorhsip of (one type of) absolutism" is even worse. Both extremes should be avoided: Extreme relativism where people believe in whatever they want to believe and extreme absolutism where people believe there's only one way to understand God.

I propose the concept of _relative absolutism_. On one hand, relative absolutism allows me to believe in absolutes (the whole idea of religion after all) and I don't need to ask for permission or even apologize for holding those beliefs.  On the other hand, I'm aware that my understanding of God is being filtered by my own theological lenses, and that in this field no one has 20-20 vision. 

God exists beyond my capacity to experience him, that is he has an objective existence. On the other hand, we can only experience him indirectly and with natural human limitations. One day, according to Paul and John, we won't need theological lenses anymore. We'll know him and experience him directly. But that hasn't happened yet. But when you say it happened you are being idolatrous and reasoning like many cults do.


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## danalto

Just a quick reply about how difficult it was living in Rome these days. I don't think you could even imagine, the town doubled his citizens, police everywhere, millions of people wandering around, traffic, police, carabinieri , firemen, our poor Rome armoured for the events (the Pope dying, the Pope's death, the Pope's funeral, waiting for the new Pope, the election of the new Pope, the new Pope's first Mass)

I just wanted to share with you this particular aspect of the situation, thinking it maybe could be interesting for those who live far away, and didn't think that Rome is *also *a place where people live, work, and go around...

We lived very strange days indeed, in a way it was exciting to share the feelings of those who had the patience and the strenght to stay in a line for 24 hrs just to cover 100mt...


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## cristóbal

Everness said:
			
		

> I found this letter intellectually fascinating.
> 
> http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ed...cles/2005/04/24/the_dictatorship_of_idolatry/
> 
> Particularly this sentence:
> 
> _The new occupant of Peter's Chair does not seem to realize that the opposite of a ''dictatorship of relativism" can be the idolatry of assuming that one church, one person (an *illusion* allusion to papal infallibility), or one government can have the truth in hand, and thus speak for truth without danger of error._



What I find fascinating is that the man used the word "illusion" when he should have said "allusion"... humm... Freudian Slip?  

So, are you interested in a debate of Papal Infallibility? Because that's all that this man is implying here... that Papal Infallibility is wrong.  I don't see anything remotely innovative in what he has said.  He's simply using the election of the pope as an occasion to reopen a centuries-old debate and criticize the Catholic Church.


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