# Czech, Slovak: Pronunciation of i, í, y, ý



## dihydrogen monoxide

Is there a difference in pronunciation of y and 
ý and i and í in Czech and Slovak? Or is it just ortography?


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## kusurija

Yes, there is difference in pronunciation _by lenght_. i, y are short; í, ý are long. If You use wrong length, it may cause misunderstanding (not every time, but often. It governs in other vowels too (a - á, e - é, o - ó, u - ú - ů). 
E.g.: vila (=residence) x víla (fay)
bili (= they beated) x bílí (they whitens/bleaches/whitevashes)
horky (little mountains) x horký (hot)
and so on... ... ...


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## dihydrogen monoxide

So what is the difference in pronunciation between i and y besides being short.


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## slavic_one

Y is hard and i is soft "i".


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## kelt

Hi,

there are three kinds I'd like to refer to:
1) when you say them on their own, there is no difference between y and i _, but there is a difference in length between i/y and í/ý [i:]_
2) when you stress the difference between the letters - it is _and ['ipsilon] (written ypsilon) or tvrdé i._
3) the most important thing is when they occur in words - i softens a preceding consonant, whereas y does not. Ex: _díl_ / _dýl_, the first one is pronounced with a softenened d.


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## winpoj

"So what is the difference in pronunciation between i and y besides being short. 	"

There is no difference in pronunciation between them. However, their use affects the pronunciation of the preceding consonants if these are "d", "t" or "n". In "di", "ti" and "ni", these consonants are pronounced as "'ď ", "ť", "ň".
The above rule does not apply to many words of foreign origin, such as "tiket", "dikce", "omnibus", etc.


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## kusurija

Winpoj is absolutely right and said all needed in this theme. I only want to underline, that i/y itself has no difference (or only sometimes very veak difference - practically negligible) in pronuciation. 

As reffered Winpoj it only softens previous d,t,n (only in words of Czech origin).

The importance of distinguishing i/y in writen text is in grammar/ethymologic reasons. 

Misspelling/misuse in i/y; í/ý may cause misunderstanding (many words sounds identic but is written in different way). And misspelling may indicate low level of erudition/education. In Czech such things are less tolerated (neglecting that, that it rather becomes slightly "modern" (in, cool and so on) in youth).


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## Jana337

I should add that in some regions (Moravia, Silesia), there is a clear difference between the pronunciation of "i" and "y". People from other Czech regions find it hard to imitate.


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## Tagarela

Ahoj,



Jana337 said:


> I should add that in some regions (Moravia, Silesia), there is a clear difference between the pronunciation of "i" and "y". People from other Czech regions find it hard to imitate.



O! Could you give us a sound sample of it? 
None of my books comments about it - but they tend to be more Bohemic I guess.

I also have heard that in Moravia people sometime pronunciate long vowels as short, is that right?

Na shledanou.:


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## winpoj

I'm joining with Tagarela in politely requesting a sound file. I've never noticed that phenomenon, although I do hear Moravians - at least on the radio and TV.
How about those words of foreign origin in those dialects?


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## kusurija

Tagarela said:


> Ahoj,
> 
> 
> 
> O! Could you give us a sound sample of it?
> None of my books comments about it - but they tend to be more Bohemic I guess.
> 
> I also have heard that in *Moravia people sometime pronunciate long vowels as short, *is that right?
> 
> Na shledanou.:


Yes, You are right! Its region about Ostrava: Ostrav*a*ci mluvi kr*a*tce.
(bold letters: and short instead of long and with stress (unusual type of stress for central Czech ears)


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## heresys

Dobrý večer!
I would also like to join the (polite) petition made by Tagarela and Winpoj with regards to a sound file illustrating the difference between i and y in Moravian speech. I have happened to be in Moravia but I don't think I have noticed a difference between the two - of course, if it could baffle a native like Winpoj, I had no chance in perceiving it! 
Díky hodně a nashledanou!


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## Jana337

File attached. I said four words - b*l* with all possible combinations of i's and y's. See if you can hear the difference and write the correct order. 


> None of my books comments about it - but they tend to be more Bohemic I guess.


I wouldn't expect it in textbook. It is not standard pronunciation. 

By the way, this pronunciation is probably limited to the north of Moravia + Silesia so I wouldn't necessarily expect to hear it in Brno.


			
				winpoj said:
			
		

> How about those words of foreign origin in those dialects?


We pronounce "i" in "tiket" etc. We are able to distinguish [ti], [ty] and [ťi].


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## robin74

Jana337 said:


> By the way, this pronunciation is probably limited to the north of Moravia + Silesia so I wouldn't necessarily expect to hear it in Brno.


I suppose it's because of some Polish impact - Polish does distinguish rather strongly between i and y, so I'd expect that the closer to the Polish border, the stronger the differences in pronunciation.


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## Tagarela

Ahoj,

Děkuji vám pěkně, Jano

Well, I couldn't hear much difference. 
I only think that the first b* was harder and the last l* softer. Anyway, I am certainly not the best person to distinguish this nuances =)

Let's see if natives speakers solve this puzzle ^^.

Na shledanou.:


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## winpoj

Thanks, Jana, I can hear it. Although hadn't I been listening for it, I might have not noticed. Certainly not as strong as e.g. in Russian.


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## Jana337

By the way, it might be interesting to know how this irregularity in pronunciation affects the performance of my region's schoolchildren in vyjmenovaná slova*. In theory, we should have an advantage. If we do, however, it was not reflected at all by our teachers. The amount of time dedicated to memorizing and drilling them was annoyingly inordinate.  Myself, I have never confused *i *and *y *and, in fact, I have always wondered how anyone could. As far as my classmates from elementary school are concerned, I don't remember well how good they were because I spent most of the time dedicated to those exercises reading books. 
_
* A list of words with *y/ý* after consonants that admit both *y* and *i.* Pupils have to memorize them._


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## Tagarela

Ahoj,

Jana, could you give us the answer of your b*l* puzzle?

And also, is it possible to find this "dreadful" list _vyjmenovaná slova_ anywhere? I was wondering if there are some y/i words that foreigners learning Czech should know in order to avoid embarrasing misunderstand with Czech people !
Perhaps _vyjmenovaná slova pro cizinci  _

Děkuji vám předem

Na shledanou.:


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## Outsider

You went too fast for me, Jana...


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## Jana337

Tagarela said:


> Ahoj,
> 
> Jana, could you give us the answer of your b*l* puzzle?


byli byly bily bili





> And also, is it possible to find this "dreadful" list _vyjmenovaná slova_ anywhere?


The Wiki link above or- in a better layout - here. Please note that the Wiki list only contains one form per root but the rule applies to derived words as well (if myslet, to think, is a _vyjmenované slovo_, so are mysl, myšlenka, myslitel etc.). The other list looks huge but it is simply more generous in terms of derived words.



> I was wondering if there are some y/i words that foreigners learning Czech should know in order to avoid embarrasing misunderstand with Czech people !
> Perhaps _vyjmenovaná slova pro cizince _


You made me think now.  Do foreigners, who learn words one by one along with ortrography, err in *i/y*? I am not sure... If they do, their spelling problems are probably overshadowed by other problems (declensions and conjugations in particular). I guess it depends on whether your memory is oral or visual. A good visual memory + frequent reading in Czech should protect foreigners from making such mistakes. But I may be wrong.



Outsider said:


> You went too fast for me, Jana...


Sorry.  But the limit for attachment is very low so I had to record and trim it several times before I could upload it in the first place.


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## kusurija

> Jana337
> 
> 
> 
> Tagarela
> Jana, could you give us the answer of your b*l* puzzle?
> 
> 
> 
> byli byly bily bili
Click to expand...

Yes, bu this is only with short y/i!
next:
býlí, bílý, bílí, bíli!, 
extended words with other combinations:
zbylý, zbylí, bílili, bílily...(se) zlatobýly, zlatobýli(personification)
non existing combination: býlý


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## tlumic

I think the following:
In Czech Republic there is a difference between *i/y* in Bohemia and *i/y* in Moravia (don´t know in which part of M. and which part of society):
- p*y*tel (sack) -- in Bohemia like in "*kick*"
                    -- in Moravia almost like in "*leave*", but short.

But there is also a difference (not just "short/long") in pronunciation between *i *and *í *which I am sure of (now I am thinking of the way I pronounce them, being from Prague):
- "*í*" for example in "mlýn" (mill), "síň" (hall) is NOT only short version of "i", but there is difference in *quality*, too: Long "í" is longer AND noticeably closer than "i" in "pyl" (pollen), "šili" (they were stitching).


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## ytre

The regional jolly. Some people take it seriously while some do make jokes about it. It's told that in Ostrava, Havirov, Trinec and surrounding almost everything is pronounced short and hard as y like the living there. While in Prague almost everything is sung as í. Meanwhile the rest of the world enjoys the benefits of all four i, y, í, ý and haves a great day with the jokes.  http://www.komik.cz/zvuky/247-jak-mama-dodrbala-mikrovlnku/ (Ostrava slooow and accessible form)  can't find Prague...


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## cajzl

Is there a difference in pronunciation of y and ý and i and í in Czech? - Yes and no. - The question would have to be: -- 1. Is there more differently pronounced Is in Czech? - Certainly yes. There is a narrow (close) I and also wide (more open, not so close) I in the Czech language. -- 2. Is there a correspondence between pronuntiation and orthography? - Very limited. (I = narrow I; Y = wide I) --- The narrow I is pronounced: - always after palatal consonants: Ď, Ť, Ň, J; mostly after B, P, M, V, F (esp. before palatals, and if I is long); after L if I is long --- The wide I is pronounced: - after S, Z, C, Š, Ž, Č, Ř; after L if I is short --- An example, where the I is clearly narrow: DÍTĚ (long I after and before palatals). Wide I: cizí (in the Kralice Bible written cyzý according to pronuntiation). /// Basically all Czechs are able to pronounce both Is, but only Moravians in a wrong place .


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## cajzl

(to Winpoj and others) -- I should want to add that pronuntiation is usually not affected by orthography. The pronuntiation of DÍTĚ is NOT affected by the fact that it is written dítě (after all, in the Kralice Bible it is written djtě).


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## Tinu

heresys said:


> Dobrý večer!
> I would also like to join the (polite) petition made by Tagarela and Winpoj with regards to a sound file illustrating the difference between i and y in Moravian speech. I have happened to be in Moravia but I don't think I have noticed a difference between the two - of course, if it could baffle a native like Winpoj, I had no chance in perceiving it!
> Díky hodně a nashledanou!


Hello!
My humble try:
It is possible to find region e. g. in parts of so called Moravian Slovakia in hilly regions of southeastern Moravia (where my family comes from) where "y" in for example "kobyla" is pronounced similar to Hungarian "ü"(in addition, "l" before "a", "o" and "u" and in stop position is pronounced as Polish "hard l", so the resulting pronounciation is "kobüua" instead of Standard Czech "kobila"). I think that this "ü" pronunciation" was originally prevalent in Czech (that´s why "y" still survives in orthography, as it once was necessary to be distinguished from "i") and is preserved only in its mot conservative dialects.


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## cajzl

Are you sure? The Hungarian ü is significantly rounded. If you mean "wide i" (pronounced in dy/ty/ny/ly/li/...), it is not rounded. There was so called "hrubé i" (gross i?) in Old Czech (14th c.) - written y, but I have no idea how it was pronounced.


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## sokol

Jana337 said:


> byli byly bily bili


I know I'm late for the contest (and I never would have been sure about the exact solution hadn't you posted it; I can clearly hear the difference in the first syllable but I've problems with the second, unstressed syllable), but I just wanted to say that this 'northeastern Czech' /y/ reminds me of Russian ы - or probably Ukrainian /и/ would be closer, I wouldn't know (I know the Russian sound from hearing where it appears to be a diphtong rather than a single sound, the Ukrainian one I only know from this thread).

This /y/ of yours I would describe as a slightly retracted and centralised /i/ (something between the IPA symbols [ɪ] and [ɨ]), and it would work as an acceptable substitution for German /ü/ = IPA [y] even though the sound is different.

PS: Even though I can confirm the similarity with rounded front vowels (like the ones in Hungarian; as suggested by Tinu) I doubt that the origin is the same.
And another by the way: in Austrian dialects the _umlaut _vowels are different (in genesis - that is, historically) from those of standard language and also are pronounced slightly different from standard language _umlaut _vowels: the Austrian dialect _umlaut _vowel for /ü/ is somewhat close to this Czech dialect /y/ - that is, closer than standard language /ü/. But again, in my opinion, it is not very likely that there's a connection between both.


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## texpert

I don't know. I can immediately tell if a person comes from Ukraine or Russia at the precise moment when they replace our usual (not so rounded, not even in Moravia) "y" with "ы". 
Even the most rounded German umlaut is still way too far from "ы" as the latter echoes as "uy" in my ears.


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## sokol

texpert said:


> I don't know. I can immediately tell if a person comes from Ukraine or Russia at the precise moment when they replace our usual (not so rounded, not even in Moravia) "y" with "ы".
> Even the most rounded German umlaut is still way too far from "ы" as the latter echoes as "uy" in my ears.


Yes, I also hear Russian /ы/ as /uy/: it is really a diphtong, not a single sound (though usually it is transcribed as a single sound = IPA [ɨ]).

And surely Russian /ы/ is easily recognised as different to the Moravian /y/. But I wouldn't know about Ukrainian /и/; the discussion on that other thread shows that there seem to be different pronunciations - but that some probably could be somewhat closer to Moravian /y/ than Russian /ы/: that's what I was referring to.

And of course German rounded umlaut is definitely different from Moravian /y/, there's only enough similarity that German native speakers would accept Moravian /y/ as an acceptable substitute for /ü/.


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## texpert

sokol said:


> And of course German rounded umlaut is definitely different from Moravian /y/, there's only enough similarity that German native speakers would accept Moravian /y/ as an acceptable substitute for /ü/.


 
Would they? All native speakers? It reminds me of my half-hearted attempt at *München *years ago on the parking lot some 30km from München. When uttering a version halfway between */mynchen/ *and */münchen/* I was getting resolute answers about "no such city in Germany" from drivers with "M" on their licence plates. 

There might have been some other factors there, though  

And as the luck would have it, I met an Ukrainian at the party yesterday. Again I knew right away, although she has spent the last 20 years in Prague. But this time her /y/ sounded more like /ue/. And she was born in Donetsk where the Russian is widely spoken.


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## sokol

texpert said:


> Would they? All native speakers? It reminds me of my half-hearted attempt at *München *years ago on the parking lot some 30km from München. When uttering a version halfway between */mynchen/ *and */münchen/* I was getting resolute answers about "no such city in Germany" from drivers with "M" on their licence plates.


Oh very well, I guess what you encountered here was rather negative attitudes than a problem with the way you pronounced; they even should understand /minchen/ without any problems whatsoever (but this would lead us off-topic here ).

Anyway, I am pretty sure that Moravian /y/ would be a good substitution for German /ü/ at the point of language acquisition where you can't yet pronounce German /ü/ yet.

As for your Ukrainian lady pronouncing /y/ rather like Russian /ы/: as is said on the other thread, see especially here, this seems to be the case in some Ukrainian regions while standard pronunciation of Ukrainian /и/, it seems, should be a slightly lowered and centralised /i/ like in English 'dim'.

Moravian /y/ however, at least to my ears, seems to be slightly rounded, thus similar to the /i/ in English 'dim' but slightly retracted and rounded: I've listened to Jana's file again right now and I'd stick to what I've said above about this sound.


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## Angelo di fuoco

sokol said:


> Yes, I also hear Russian /ы/ as /uy/: it is really a diphtong, not a single sound (though usually it is transcribed as a single sound = IPA [ɨ]).



I guess you were confounding "ы" and "ый". "Ы" can be held as much time as your breath support permits withouth sound changes, so it's definitely no diphtong.


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