# Hindi: ke saae meN के साए में



## marrish

Hi,

Reading the Hindi news site on the BBC I have stumbled on the following phrase:

विवाद *के साए में* भारत पहुंचे चीनी प्रधानमंत्री

_vivaad *ke saae meN* bhaarat pahuNche chiinii pradhaanmantrii_


Could someone tell me what does *साए *mean and what register it belongs to?

Thanks.


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## Chhaatr

Marrish SaaHib I do not read much Hindi but as per my understanding "saae" is from "saayaa" (shadow).

So I interpret the sentence as:

"In the shadow (or backdrop) of dispute (reference is to Sino-Indo border dispute) the Chinese Prime Minister arrives in India.


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## greatbear

Means "saayaa": as Chhatr has already said (shadow, backdrop (of something negative), looming cloud). It's a very commonly used word in both spoken and written Hindi.


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## Alfaaz

Chhaatr said:
			
		

> Marrish SaaHib I do not read much Hindi but as per my understanding "saae" is from "saayaa" (shadow).


 Some extra information for Chhaatr (since you are currently learning to read and write Urdu), the word is written as سایہ _saayah_ - from Persian, cognate of Sanskrit छाया. Just as you have recently asked about _sar-e-aflaak _in another thread, _saayah_ is also used in izaafats: _qadam qadam peh mile saayah-e-bahaar tujhhe_.


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## marrish

Thank you for pointing it out to me that _saae meN_ originates after all in _saayah_ (or as you indicate, _saayaa_ in Hindi). Since the uninflected word is _saayah_ (or _saayaa_), should the spelling of the inflected one not be _ke saaye meN_?

Another question: do you consider replacing this noun by chhaayaa, chhaaoN or even parchhaaii be acceptable?


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## marrish

Alfaaz said:


> Some extra information for Chhaatr (since you are currently learning to read and write Urdu), the word is written as سایہ _saayah_ - from Persian, cognate of Sanskrit छाया. Just as you have recently asked about _sar-e-aflaak _in another thread, _saayah_ is also used in izaafats: _qadam qadam peh mile saayah-e-bahaar tujhhe_.


Certainly a digression, since this thread has started as a Hindi only one however it has emerged the word under discussion is shared by Urdu and Hindi (although the spelling was not so obvious to me - and this has puzzled me so that I posted this query!)... Alfaaz jii, I have noticed that recently you started writing ''double h'' in words, like this one ''tujhhe''. May I ask if there is something you have come across which makes you use the geminated variant?


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## Alfaaz

marrish said:
			
		

> Certainly a digression, since this thread has started as a Hindi only one however it has emerged the word under discussion is shared by Urdu and Hindi (although the spelling was not so obvious to me - and this has puzzled me so that I posted this query!)... Alfaaz jii, I have noticed that recently you started writing ''double h'' in words, like this one ''tujhhe''. May I ask if there is something you have come across which makes you use the geminated variant?


 Excuse the digression marrish SaaHib! Chhaatr SaaHib seems to be actively learning and has previously appreciated/welcomed such comments and extra information related to Urdu, which is why I posted here...but I guess it would have been better to send a PM. Again, excuse the interruption! 

double h: there wasn't any specific reason.


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## marrish

No no Alfaaz SaaHib! The digression of mine is unjustified while your contribution is perfectly in its place because it has emerged the word comes from Urdu and the spelling seems important. Had it not been the spelling in Hindi I would have known instantly what it meant and had not made this thread! There is no interruption whatsoever. Thanks for your answer to my question, I asked it because it was not the first time. Best greetings!


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## greatbear

marrish said:


> Another question: do you consider replacing this noun by chhaayaa, chhaaoN or even parchhaaii be acceptable?



In the sentence in OP, "kii chhaye" or "kii parchhaaii" can replace "ke saaye"; however, "saaye" is the most commonly used word in such contexts. (Both "chhaye" and "parchhaaii," in particular the latter, would be stronger/gloomier than "saaye".)


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## Chhaatr

Marrish SaaHib, IMO "saae" can be replaced with "parchhaii" but "chhaaoN" would be out of place as it means "shade".

kaRaktii dhuup meN bargad ke vishaal peR kii chhaaoN meN baiTH kar sukuun milaa. 

I could be wrong, but I feel chhaaoN has a positive feel to it whereas in your sentence "saae" or "parchhaii" are being used to convey a negative sentiment.


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## greatbear

^ True; it is interesting how "chhaoN" has usually positive connotations, while "chhayaa"/"chhaye" can have both strong positive and negative connotations (positive: "aap kii chhatr-chhaayaa meN mujhe kis baat kaa Dar?"; negative: "jab se us Daayan kii chhaayaa us ke jeevan pe paRii hai, tab se us kaa beRaa garg ho gayaa/chukaa hai").


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## Chhaatr

marrish said:


> Since the uninflected word is _saayah_ (or _saayaa_), should the spelling of the inflected one not be _ke saaye meN_?



I'm not able to recall many nouns ending with "yaa" at the moment but I think they would change to "e" the way saayaa has changed. 

One eg is "paayaa" (leg of a chair/table/bed).  I've not seen "paaye".

Perhaps GB and TS could confirm this or correct me?


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## greatbear

^ Indeed, Chhatr, you are right: saaya to saae, chhaayaa to chhaae (in fact, in post 11 that is what I meant; I was a bit careless about transliterating there), paayaa (leg of bed, etc.) to paae, and so on.


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## amiramir

Hi,

The words saayaa, chhaayaa, parchhaaii were discusssed above more in a metaphorical sense ("in the shadow of...". Sticking to just educated urban speech, is this a correct breakdown of usage?
- shadow: saayaa [from the sun]
- shade: chhaayaa or chhaaoN? [i.e. sitting under a tree]
- reflection: parchhaaii [in the mirror]

I wasn't sure if chhaayaa is commonly used for both shade and shadow?

This thread exists, but it doesn't answer the question: Urdu: Chaiyya Chaiyya


Thanks.


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## desi4life

_saayaa _can change to _saaye _or _saae_. Likewise, _chhaayaa _can change to _chhaaye _or _chhaae_, and _paayaa _to _paaye _or _paae_. Multiple words have _-aaye_ and _-aae_ spelling variants. I'm surprised there was an uncertainty expressed in some of the posts. It's very easy to check on Google when there is doubt.


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## amiramir

@desi4life -- it's an old thread, so I don't think there's any confusion over the inflection of those words anymore. I had a question on the meanings of those words in daily language, hence I revived the thread. Thanks.


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## littlepond

"chhaayaa" means both shade and shadow, though the more common word for "shadow" is "parchhaaii" (which can also mean "reflection", for which "pratibimb" also exists).

"saayaa", as far as usage is concerned, is always accompanied by negative/alarmist/scary connotations.


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## amiramir

@littlepond, thank you, very helpful. In daily life, I'll use parchhaaii to be shadow and reflection, with chhaayaa for shade.


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## littlepond

^ My pleasure. Note that both "chhaayaa"/"chhae" and "parchhaaii" can also be used negatively, of course (just as the English "shadow"): however, by themselves, they have nothing negative, unlike "saayaa". Also, "chhae" is much more commonly used than "chhaayaa" (e.g., "peR kii chhae meN so jaanaa" much more common than "peR kii chhaayaa ..."). "chhao"/"chhaoN" also exists.


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## amiramir

littlepond said:


> Also, "chhae" is much more commonly used than "chhaayaa" (e.g., "peR kii chhae meN so jaanaa" much more common than "peR kii chhaayaa ...").



Thanks again. This is a really helpful comment. I didn't realize this.


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