# Are the rules same for all WR forums?



## natasha2000

To moderators:
I warned a newcomer who asked translation from English to Spanish without offering his atempt as well as other newcomer who gave the translation about the rules of WR, and at the end, I had to apologize. Why?

Because I was referring to this rule. And it results that this rule can be found only in Slavic forum. There is no such rule in Spanish-English forum, and I am asking myself why. 

On the other hand, in this part of the WR we have already discussed many times about this issue. Free translations, without any attempt offered... And when I warn one newcomer about it, at the end I am the rude one and I have to apologize, and I am ebarassed only because there is no such rule in the list of rules in Spanish-English forum, even though we have discussed it many times and whe all agreed not to help with any translation to those who do not offer any attempt or at least say they do not speak nor learn the language, but they need one or two sentences translated.


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## Moogey

That happened to me... but we resolved that this rule doesn't exist, at least not in Italian-English.

In another thread we resolved to let the "mod work" be left to the mods, as it should be, if nothing else to protect yourself from angry forum member wrath 

-M


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## Jana337

The WR rules that you are supposed to here when you register are binding for all forums. However, there is some "regional variation" in the approach to certain issues (most prominently proofreading) because we were not able to agree on a common policy. The French forum has an announcement, the English forum an enhanced sticky, many small forums a special sticky called "Rules of conduct", the Spanish forum does not seem to have any written regulation.

Jana


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## Bienvenidos

I must say that the Vocabulario foreros/foreras always ask for the poster's attempt before helping him/her out. From time to time, there may be simple posts that do not violate the rules (i.e. asking for a quick translation of a common phrase). We in Vocabulario are pretty good with making sure people do their own work before asking for our help.

Saludos


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## natasha2000

Bienvenidos, this happened to me in Vocabulario General. My conduct was based on a general behavor of all foreros in this forum. Now I see that only Slavic forum and German as well have explicit rule "WR is not free translation agency". I think that this rule should be included in General Vocabulary, too, since in too many threads there are requests for attempt if the initial poster does not contain it.

Jana. These are some of discussions about this rule.
click
click
click

I would really appreciate if some moderator told me what is the attitude in Vocabulario forum about this issue, and IMHO  if it is "no free translations" then it should be included into rules.


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## Moogey

"Free" shouldn't even be included anywhere because we don't offer translations for a price either.

As far as corrections go, that is part of the language learning process. I don't know why that would be disallowed. I have learned a lot in the past on this forum by having my paragraphs corrected. Paragraph corrections have attributed to my improved Italian because I study the corrections and learn how to speak better.

-M


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## cuchuflete

The Slavic forum sticky includes this:



> If a thread starter does not* suggest his own solution*


 but that sentence immediately follows a statement about *student *work.

There may be some ambiguity to clear up there.  The point is,
we have a fairly consistent policy regarding homework/schoolwork, and some people have mistakenly assumed that this applies to all threads.

It does not!

People come to these forums with many sets of capabilities, and many needs.  To arbitrarily force all posters to offer their own translations at all times is wrong.  It does not comply with any forum or broad WR policy.  

On behalf of myself and other mods who may have created some confusion on this point, I offer a sincere apology.  Let's be clear once and for all: There is no forum rule that requires all threads seeking translation help to provide a provisional attempt.


Here is an invented example to clarify the point.



			
				Forero equis said:
			
		

> Hi everybody,
> I'm reading a novel in English, and I found a statement in what I think is Spanish.  Can somebody tell me what it means?  Here it is--   "¡No me des la lata!"
> 
> Thanks very much for your help.


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## natasha2000

Moogey said:


> "Free" shouldn't even be included anywhere because we don't offer translations for a price either.
> 
> As far as corrections go, that is part of the language learning process. I don't know why that would be disallowed. I have learned a lot in the past on this forum by having my paragraphs corrected. Paragraph corrections have attributed to my improved Italian because I study the corrections and learn how to speak better.
> 
> -M


 

Why not? So someone comes here because he needs some translation for his business and doesn't even tell this, demanding a translation. I do not se ok.

As far as corrections, they are more than welcome, as long as a try was offered. There is no better way to learn but on your own mistakes.


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## natasha2000

cuchuflete said:


> The Slavic forum sticky includes this:
> 
> but that sentence immediately follows a statement about *student *work.
> 
> There may be some ambiguity to clear up there. The point is,
> we have a fairly consistent policy regarding homework/schoolwork, and some people have mistakenly assumed that this applies to all threads.
> 
> It does not!
> 
> People come to these forums with many sets of capabilities, and many needs. To arbitrarily force all posters to offer their own translations at all times is wrong. It does not comply with any forum or broad WR policy.
> 
> On behalf of myself and other mods who may have created some confusion on this point, I offer a sincere apology. Let's be clear once and for all: There is no forum rule that requires all threads seeking translation help to provide a provisional attempt.
> 
> 
> Here is an invented example to clarify the point.


 

But then, Slavic forum sticky begins with:



> The forum is not* a free translation and correction service*.


 
And in the thread in question, a poster put it clearly that what he is looking for is free translation. I think that at least he could have said, "Sorry I do not speak nor learn Spanish, but I desperately need this three sentences in Spanish."

Anyway, thank you for clarfying this for me. I will never ask anyone to give his own try again. Never.
Thanks.


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## Jana337

There's also this:


> Those who ask specific questions but have not shown *a* *consistent interest in learning the language* need not be asked to provide their own translation.


It is reasonable not to assume that the person who asks, in particular a newbie, is a learner of the language or even a dishonest student unless it clearly follows from the thread. Let's try to weed out systematic abuse of the forum but let's not compromise friendliness.

I personally like to elicit some activity from the askers to help them learn, and Natasha, a very valuable and polite member, is probably committed to the same approach. 

Jana


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## Jana337

> But then, Slavic forum sticky begins with:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The forum is not* a free translation and correction service*.
Click to expand...

 It surely does but please do not stop reading there (this is not much for Natasha because she knows); the following words provide enough flexibility to translate Polish love letters and to decline to translate a leasing contract of 3 pages. 

Jana


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## natasha2000

Jana337 said:


> There's also this:
> 
> It is reasonable not to assume that the person who asks, in particular a newbie, is a learner of the language or even a dishonest student unless it clearly follows from the thread. Let's try to weed out systematic abuse of the forum but let's not compromise friendliness.
> 
> I personally like to elicit some activity from the askers to help them learn, and Natasha, a very valuable and polite member, is probably committed to the same approach.
> 
> Jana


 

Thank you for youd kins words, Jana. 
How was I supposed to know if he is commited or not if it is his first post, and above all, he does not say anything?
Once I had to ask help in French forum although I do not speak French. The first sentence I put was: I do not speak French, but i desperately need help, and I explained my situation. I thought this would be fair to the members of French forum to know why I ask help. Maybe I am just justifying myself too much.


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## Jana337

natasha2000 said:


> Thank you for youd kins words, Jana.
> How was I supposed to know if he is commited or not if it is his first post, and above all, he does not say anything?


Well, my suggestion is not to assume anything because you cannot really know more than people reveal themselves. But I guess it is up to Spanish moderators to elucidate the modus operandi in their realm. 

Jana


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## DesertCat

cuchuflete said:


> On behalf of myself and other mods who may have created some confusion on this point, I offer a sincere apology.  Let's be clear once and for all: There is no forum rule that requires all threads seeking translation help to provide a provisional attempt.



And, yet in IE there are still people telling people they must do this. It's very frustrating and annoying. I hate to send a note to a mod everytime I see one of these requests, but I will if that's the only way to put a stop to it.


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## Jana337

DesertCat said:


> And, yet in IE there are still people telling people they must do this. It's very frustrating and annoying. I hate to send a note to a mod everytime I see one of these requests, but I will if that's the only way to put a stop to it.


Thanks, please use report-a-post. 

Jana


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## cuchuflete

I certainly appreciate Natasha's frustration.  We all want this to be a place of shared learning.  Yet hundreds of new members join every week, and many (most?) do not read the forum rules, or review existing threads to get a sense of our collective style before they post a question.  They just dive right in and ask for help.

It would be nice if they were to introduce themselves and their interests and capabilities.  A few do, but most, understandably, do not.

What should a fine contributor like Nastasha do when there is no background given?  Well...there is no ironclad rule, but if it's obviously schoolwork, then a gentle request for the thread starter's own idea is appropriate, as is a red triangle notification to the mods.  Beyond that, it is difficult to generalize.  We cannot know the status of each and every forero when they first arrive.  You might ask, in a courteous manner, the source of the need for help, or just contact a moderator if you have doubts.  

Above all, let's continue to try to be welcoming and friendly.
Systematic attempts at abuse of our mission, whether through lack of awareness or for other reasons, will become obvious quickly, and will be addressed.


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## DesertCat

Jana337 said:


> Thanks, please use report-a-post.



Thanks, Jana.    I will.  
And sorry if I came across a little harsh. It's been a long day.


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## danielfranco

After trying to ask a few forer@s nicely (right) to include their own try (I also thought it was a global rule of the WRF's) and then seeing other people just go ahead and give the translation anyway, I've changed tactics:
I just ignore the request until somebody else answers it, and then, if there's anything left to contribute, I would post in the thread.
Not very neighborly, but there you are...


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## Moogey

danielfranco, that's exactly what I did at first, but then I just decided to go ahead and post 

You've already heard from two moderators that this is not a rule 

-M


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## malinche

Thanks for bringing this up, Natasha,  I have had the same question.  Mainly in the Spanish-English forum I find posts where people haven't even looked in the WR dictionary before asking for the translation of single words.   Nevertheless, despite those annoying cases the WR forums remain an enjoyable experience where I learn a lot every day. 
Thanks to all the contributors!


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## natasha2000

malinche said:


> Thanks for bringing this up, Natasha, I have had the same question. Mainly in the Spanish-English forum I find posts where people haven't even looked in the WR dictionary before asking for the translation of single words. Nevertheless, despite those annoying cases the WR forums remain an enjoyable experience where I learn a lot every day.
> Thanks to all the contributors!


 
Well, this is another annoying issue.  And also those who do not even thank you, nor say please. But then, I assume this is a question od domestic education, and I shouldn't let this upset me so much.

Thank you all for your contributions in clarifying this issue for me.


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## Moogey

natasha2000 said:


> Well, this is another annoying issue.  And also those who do not even thank you, nor say please. But then, I assume this is a question od domestic education, and I shouldn't let this upset me so much.
> 
> Thank you all for your contributions in clarifying this issue for me.



True. Well in the very beginning when I was new here, I wouldn't say thank you because I was afraid that it would be considered an unnecessary post, rather than a sincere expression of gratitude. Maybe people just need to get the feel of things first, like me! Generally speaking, this place can be intimidating at times, even for someone with 1,617 posts. Well then again, _any_ forum can be intimidating.

-M


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## moodywop

Natasha, thank you for bringing this up. Whatever our personal position I think that there needs to be some definitive clarification.

Cuchu's posts are - as usual - crystal-clear on this issue. There is no rule demanding that posters asking for a translation should make a first attempt. 

By the way, Natasha also asked whether the rules should be the same in all forums. I would think that common sense, fairness and consistency should dictate that they are.
And yet the other day a forera at IE who complained about the not exactly polite way in which forer@s who had just joined were reminded of the "proper capitalization" rule (by both mods and pseudomods) was told that at IE standard are stricter. When she pointed out that one forer@ regularly made no use of capital letters in all his posts in various forums (including one language forum) she was told that mods in that specific language forum "don't care about spelling".
Shouldn't we all care about presenting learners with correct spelling? Some of my pupils have joined WRF. I am concerned. I review my posts over and over again to remove spelling mistakes and typos. Should I not bother? It costs me a great effort because of my bad eyesight. Why can't others put in that little bit of extra effort? By the way, I'm referring to native speakers .

I'm genuinely confused.


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## natasha2000

moodywop said:


> Natasha, thank you for bringing this up. Whatever our personal position I think that there needs to be some definitive clarification.
> 
> Cuchu's posts are - as usual - crystal-clear on this issue. There is no rule demanding that posters asking for a translation should make a first attempt.
> 
> By the way, Natasha also asked whether the rules should be the same in all forums. I would think that common sense, fairness and consistency should dictate that they are.
> And yet the other day a forera at IE who complained about the not exactly polite way in which forer@s who had just joined were reminded of the "proper capitalization" rule (by both mods and pseudomods) was told that at IE standard are stricter. When she pointed out that one forer@ regularly made no use of capital letters in all his posts in various forums (including one language forum) she was told that mods in that specific language forum "don't care about spelling".
> 
> I'm genuinely confused.


 
Well, this IS very confusing. In Slavic forum, people who don't capitalize properly are also corrected by a moderator. But in Vocabulario, sometimes there are people who write Spanish capitalizing each word, as if it were German (some kind of their personal expression ), and they have never been warned by anyone about it. Maybe once I saw someone commented on this, but it went pretty unnoticed... 
So in the end, it seems that different forums do have different rules.... ....


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## moodywop

natasha2000 said:


> Well, this IS very confusing. In Slavic forum, people who don't capitalize properly are also corrected by a moderator. But in Vocabulario, sometimes there are people who write Spanish capitalizing each word, as if it were German (some kind of their personal expression ), and they have never been warned by anyone about it. Maybe once I saw someone commented on this, but it went pretty unnoticed...
> So in the end, it seems that different forums do have different rules.... ....


 
I couldn't agree more, dear Natasha.

I should add that I have repeatedly reported the offending forero on several occasions and to at least three mods. I am not of course allowed to report their answers or mention their names because I do abide by the rules.


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## Jana337

natasha2000 said:


> Well, this IS very confusing. In Slavic forum, people who don't capitalize properly are also corrected by a moderator. But in Vocabulario, sometimes there are people who write Spanish capitalizing each word, as if it were German (some kind of their personal expression ), and they have never been warned by anyone about it. Maybe once I saw someone commented on this, but it went pretty unnoticed...
> So in the end, it seems that different forums do have different rules.... ....


It is also a matter of priorities, Natasha. On good days, we have some 15 active Slavic threads. In the Spanish forum, they have, say, 30 pages of active threads just in Vocabolario. We would need at least 50 Spanish moderators if Spanish threads were to receive the same amount of attention I can devote to each Slavic thread.

One correction: People who write the way that reminds you of German (grossly innacurate  ) actually write everything in caps. Our software has an anti-shouting feature that coverts caps into A Text Like This. 



> a forera at IE who complained about the not exactly polite way in which forer@s who had just joined were reminded of the "proper capitalization" rule


I have yet to see an example of the so-called not exactly polite way. To my knowledge, this and this are quite typical. I am eagerly awaiting a PM with counterexamples.


> Shouldn't we all care about presenting learners with correct spelling? Some of my pupils have joined WRF. I am concerned. I review my posts over and over again to remove spelling mistakes and typos. Should I not bother?


Need I say anything?

Jana


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## natasha2000

Jana337 said:


> One correction: People who write the way that reminds you of German (grossly innacurate  ) actually write everything in caps. Our software has an anti-shouting feature that coverts caps into A Text Like This.
> Jana


 
I am not sure I understood this correctly. Are you saying that in fact they do not write each word beginning with a capital letter, but somehow, software converts their texts in "A Text Like This"? How come then that many other posts (which are a lot more than those few) are not converted but published in a normal way, just as I write it? Please, could you explain this a little bit further?

PD: Why inaccurate? I might not actually speak German, there was a time when I studied German so I know that in German all nouns are written in caps. So, even though it is not exactly the same, it is very, very similar .


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## Jana337

natasha2000 said:


> I am not sure I understood this correctly. Are you saying that in fact they do not write each word beginning with a capital letter, but somehow, software converts their texts in "A Text Like This"? How come then that many other posts (which are a lot more than those few) are not converted but published in a normal way, just as I write it? Please, could you explain this a little bit further?
> 
> PD: Why inaccurate? I might not actually speak German, there was a time when I studied German so I know that in German all nouns are written in caps. So, even though it is not exactly the same, it is very, very similar .


German - I did not realize that you meant all nouns because you said "each word", i.e. not only nouns.

IF PEOPLE WRITE THE WHOLE MESSAGE LIKE THIS,
the following appears:
If People Write The Whole Message Like This,

The latter looks awful, of course. The software developers must have included the feature in the hope that at least some people who are unaware of the netiquette would notice that something was wrong and switch to normal writing.

If you write normally (caps at the beginning of sentences and proper names), nothing happens. Actually, one lower-case letter is enough for the anti-shouting feature not to be activated.

Jana


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## panjandrum

This Post Was Written Using All Capitals, No Lower Case Letters At All.


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## panjandrum

THIS POST WAS WRITTEN USING ALL CAPITALS EXCEPT FOR this.


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## natasha2000

Thanks. Now I understand. That is why sometimes appears:

tEXT LIKE THIS.

tHANKS!


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## panjandrum

Sorry about three posts in a row, but to get the effect right the last two had to be separate posts.

If there are only upper case letters, the software converts to lower case every letter except for the first letter of each word.
If there are any lower case letters, the post appears as it was sent.


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## timpeac

malinche said:


> Thanks for bringing this up, Natasha, I have had the same question. Mainly in the Spanish-English forum I find posts where people haven't even looked in the WR dictionary before asking for the translation of single words. Nevertheless, despite those annoying cases the WR forums remain an enjoyable experience where I learn a lot every day.
> Thanks to all the contributors!


This is a rule though -

3. Look for the answer in the dictionary first.
It's at the top of every page.


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## moodywop

Jana337 said:
			
		

> I have yet to see an example of the so-called not exactly polite way. To my knowledge, this and this are quite typical. I am eagerly awaiting a PM with counterexamples.


 
Well, Jana, quite fairly, I guess, you only picked examples of your own moderating interventions. Whether they are polite or not is subjective.

Rather than PM you, I would like to ask you and all foreros whether posts such as this:



> well you're wrong. watch yo back foolio.
> 
> why can't the indicator lights be trusted? becauseof the 30mins "inactivity buffer"?


 
should be tolerated.

I'm protecting the forer@'s privacy but I and many others have often asked you and several other mods why this forer@ has been allowed to post *thousands *of similar posts, using bad spelling and no capitalization. The forer@ in question is *a native speaker of English.*


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## maxiogee

I would be alarmed if the poster moodywop quoted was allowed away unchastised for posts like that, and I would expect to see a lot more UpperCase in their subsequent posts?

Are mods *allowed* to be sloppy?

Can one mod moderate another?


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## cuchuflete

Moodywop said:
			
		

> By the way, Natasha also asked whether the rules should be the same in all forums. I would think that common sense, fairness and consistency should dictate that they are.



Common sense should overrule consistency is a few instances.
Rules for monolingual forums are, of necessity, different from those for multilingual forums.  The Cultural Discussions forum has always been more flexible than the language forums in terms of latitude about thread topics.

The conversation about specific sticky thread wording may
overlook the central tendency, which is to keep all forums marching in tune with the Forum Guidelines.

As to specific instances of rules, or presumed rules, or desired rules being subject to slightly different interpretations, this is
a tempest in a teapot.  There are some ten thousand active foreros, and the mod staff was, until quite recently, a crew of fewer than twenty volunteers.  That means, in a world _ideally_ governed by common sense and consistency and fairness and other noble objectives, that many threads and posts are never seen by a moderator.  Those that are will always be dealt with by human, subjective judgment.  Mods talk among themselves, and as might be expected, they agree frimly about general principles, but sometimes disagree about matters of degree in application of rules.  Those who would have it otherwise might be more comfortable with a longer list of rules (personally I think we have quite enough at present!) applied with machine-like consistency.  That would turn mods into constables, rather than guides, and I suspect most of us would have little interest in such a job.  

There is broad consistency in the way all forums are managed.  There are occasional exceptions.  Those exceptions often have a reason, and in any event are no cause to assume that the world is in a state of total chaos, or that the sky is falling.  

This C&S forum is a wonderful safety valve.  When the exceptions, or misinterpretations, grow bothersome, as happened with the "post your own translation first" issue, we talk openly about it here, and tweak the system to make the troubles diminish.


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## cuchuflete

maxiogee said:


> Can one mod moderate another?



Yes.  I've had posts deleted by colleagues.

No.  If a mod/forero is moderated, it is because the mod/forero
was acting solely as a forero, and did something that invited moderator intervention.

Is the glass half empty or half full?

Which side of the Mobius strip are we on?


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## moodywop

maxiogee said:


> I would be alarmed if the poster moodywop quoted was allowed away unchastised for posts like that, and I would expect to see a lot more UpperCase in their subsequent posts?
> 
> Are mods *allowed* to be sloppy?
> 
> Can one mod moderate another?


 
I didn't mention the forero in question is a mod as public questioning of mods' behaviour, even when acting as plain foreros, is, I believe, not allowed. If this is the case, please only delete this post and not my previous ones.

Again, if what follows is seen as a rule-breaking statement, please only delete the statement: I have a PM in my possession in which Mike himself, in reponse to Charles Costante's formal complaint, said that it's not acceptable to have "one rule for the mods and one for ordinary members". Costante later left WTF for good. This happened a few months ago.

My quoting of Orwell's "All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others" from Orwell's "Animal Farm" was deemed to be offensive by the mod I quoted it to. I can't understand why.


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## Bienvenidos

Returning to the original topic, I have an example of where I didn't feel it was necessary for the forera to attempt to translate the phrase, because 1) it seemed like a simple, fun phrase and 2) I was positive that this was not for her homework. The thread was in Vocabulario.

Saludos


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## moodywop

cuchuflete said:


> Common sense should overrule consistency is a few instances.
> Rules for monolingual forums are, of necessity, different from those for multilingual forums. The Cultural Discussions forum has always been more flexible than the language forums in terms of latitude about thread topics.


 
Thousands of the rule-breaking posts by the forero I referred to are in a *learners' forum: the French-English one.*

In his signature he calls those who advocate proper spelling "fascist morons" (sic)

In the past people have been banned for repeatedly violating rules. The forero in question gleefully supported the ban of one such member.

These are facts.


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## Elisa68

cuchuflete said:


> Common sense should overrule consistency is a few instances.


Respect should overrule everything.


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## Jana337

moodywop said:


> Well, Jana, quite fairly, I guess, you only picked examples of your own moderating interventions. Whether they are polite or not is subjective.


Subjectively, I find them absolutely polite. No one has ever told me the opposite.





> Rather than PM you, I would like to ask you and all foreros whether posts such as this should be tolerated.


 You know how much I dislike this way of writing and that I do not permit it in my forums. People who type like that are respectfully (very subjective, I know) corrected, repeteadly if necessary. I cannot claim I catch every single post, but no one in my vicinity can get away with it for long. 

Jana


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## moodywop

> I do not permit it in my forums


 
My forums? I thought the site was owned by Mike. We are all his guests here and as such equal


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## Jana337

moodywop said:


> My forums? I thought the site was owned by Mike. We are all his guests here and as such equal


Touché.  I commonly call forums I am in charge of my forums, without claiming their possession. OK, "my" would have been more appropriate.

Jana


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## timpeac

moodywop said:


> My forums? I thought the site was owned by Mike. We are all his guests here and as such equal


Jana means the forums she moderates. Yes Mike owns the forums, but he delegates the day to day running of specific forums to different moderators. The English Only moderators do not allow consistently poor spelling or lack of capitalisation either.

Jana - I found your message polite and appropriate.


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## erick

moodywop said:


> "well you're wrong. watch yo back foolio."
> 
> I'm protecting the forer@ moderator's privacy but I and many others have often asked you and several other mods why this forer@ has been allowed to post *thousands *of similar posts, using bad spelling and no capitalization. The forer@ in question is *a native speaker of English.*



Oh that is terrible!  (But hilarious ... only because I don't read in the forums s/he moderates)  Who said this?  He or she is a _moderator_?  And as such beyond mention or reproach?  if what Moodywop say be true about a mod who behaves dis way n types like dat u know i think Moody gotta point cuz ur mod's out o line. thanx n respek.  ← (Isn't that annoying?)

I also agree with Carlo's sentiment that forum posts should be held to the same standard.  If this nameless person is permitted to use SMS chat-speak in one forum he may feel entitled to do so in other forums, to the consternation of others who find it 1. annoying and 2. distracting as other foreros join in to correct him, leading the thread away from its original point.  Is something to be done about the recalcitrant foreros/mods who continue to use chatspeak?  Here's a thread from just this morning.  I won't mention any names, but take a look at posts #2, 5, 7, 10½, and 12.


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## Jana337

> dis way n types like dat u know i think Moody gotta point cuz ur mod's out o line. thanx n respek


 No, it is not chatspeak in this case, Erick. "Just" missing capitals (and punctuation I think) and typos, and probably not always.

Recalcitrant foreros are given explicit or subtle hints in the forums, and if they fail to take the hint, PMs follow. A couple of hours ago, a PM was sent to the forero in the thread you mentioned. 

Jana


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## Alfry

moodywop said:


> By the way, Natasha also asked whether the rules should be the same in all forums. I would think that common sense, fairness and consistency should dictate that they are.






Elisa68 said:


> Respect should overrule everything.




Not to mention the pleasure of learning a language different from the one we speak and the pleasure of helping people we never met.


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## natasha2000

Bienvenidos said:


> Returning to the original topic, I have an example of where I didn't feel it was necessary for the forera to attempt to translate the phrase, because 1) it seemed like a simple, fun phrase and 2) I was positive that this was not for her homework. The thread was in Vocabulario.
> 
> Saludos


 
I, too, helped many times in cases like this one. It is obvious that it is neither a homework nor business matter. I love you, You are my kitten, my cookie, i miss you, I can't wait to see you... normally those are simple sentences with no more than five or six words, and it is obvious what they are about. But there were also longer e-mails of the similar content, and the authors of those posts normally tried to translate it, and if not, they were giving some kind of try after being asked to do so. And if they did not speak, they explained and excused themselves, and for sure they did not seem ofended. The translation would be done among foreros, and everyone was happy. I really do not mind if someone doesn't speak the language and TELLS IT in his initiating post.
Example:

"Hello, I need this to be translated to Spanish, I would gladly give my try, but I do not speak a word of Spanish. I would appreciate very much any help. Thank you."

I really wouldn't mind in helping a person who comes forward in this or similar way. Really. It is all about the attitude. And if someone asks from a newcomer to give his own try, it is always in a very friendly way, something like:


> Why don't you try first, and then we shall pop in and help you with correction?





> It would be nice if you gave us your try first.


 
I really do not see anything rude or offensive in these sentences, but nontheless, i also saw many newcomers feeling attacked or something like that, and reacted in a very negative way. 
What really bothers me is the attitude. Posts that do not say hello, nor bye, only sentences to be translated. But what bothers me even more are other that do the translation. What the heck, maybe its just me, I am the wierd one....


----------



## TrentinaNE

natasha2000 said:


> What really bothers me is the attitude. Posts that do not say hello, nor bye, only sentences to be translated. But what bothers me even more are other that do the translation. What the heck, maybe its just me, I am the wierd one....


You can't control what other people do, but you can control how you react to what other people do.  You aren't weird -- a lot of us have trouble with this distinction. I forget it several times a day, at least, myself.  

Elisabetta


----------



## Bienvenidos

natasha2000 said:


> I, too, helped many times in cases like this one. It is obvious that it is neither a homework nor business matter. I love you, You are my kitten, my cookie, i miss you, I can't wait to see you... normally those are simple sentences with no more than five or six words, and it is obvious what they are about. But there were also longer e-mails of the similar content, and the authors of those posts normally tried to translate it, and if not, they were giving some kind of try after being asked to do so. And if they did not speak, they explained and excused themselves, and for sure they did not seem ofended. The translation would be done among foreros, and everyone was happy. I really do not mind if someone doesn't speak the language and TELLS IT in his initiating post.
> Example:
> 
> "Hello, I need this to be translated to Spanish, I would gladly give my try, but I do not speak a word of Spanish. I would appreciate very much any help. Thank you."
> 
> I really wouldn't mind in helping a person who comes forward in this or similar way. Really. It is all about the attitude. And if someone asks from a newcomer to give his own try, it is always in a very friendly way, something like:
> 
> 
> 
> I really do not see anything rude or offensive in these sentences, but nontheless, i also saw many newcomers feeling attacked or something like that, and reacted in a very negative way.
> What really bothers me is the attitude. Posts that do not say hello, nor bye, only sentences to be translated. But what bothers me even more are other that do the translation. What the heck, maybe its just me, I am the wierd one....



Oh no, it's not you. I always leave a forero a message like the ones that you listed, and beleive me, I've been reacted to rudely as well. I remember one post when I told the person to please provide some context and we'd be more than happy to help him, and he turned around and posted "You don't have to be an asshole about it". Luckily, a kind moderator deleted the message with the reason for deletion as: nonsense. I understand what you're saying completely. We're both on the same page here. It bothers me to see people post whole e-mails and love letters and ask for a translation. I understand sometimes that the person really needs it, and that's why I always say that each situation is different. I think a lot of us have been misntepreting your original post, Natasha; sorry for that. So now that we all understand what's going on, how are we to go about solving it? This thread has gotten so many posts about rules, rules, rules....is there anyway to actually make sense of these rules?

I dunno. I'm starting to get confused myself here. Sometimes it's just people's attitudes that make them repond negatively when a forero/a asks them to do their work themselves. 

I'll be back soon.
Saludos


----------



## Bienvenidos

Some examples of various situations when I've asked politely for a forero/a's attempt, context, or when I've asked them to please type legibly in Vocabulario:



> _Re: gotta make it
> 
> Welcome to the forums!
> 
> I'd like to ask for your intent. I have your translation ready: I'd just like to see what specific questions you have about the phrase.
> 
> Saludos
> 
> __Re: giz a job
> 
> ¡Hola! ¡Bienvenido/a a los foros!
> 
> Si puede, favor de darnos un poco de contexto. Esto nos ayudaría a ayudarlo/a.
> 
> Saludos desde los Estados Unidos
> 
> __Re: Imaled
> 
> __                 Más contexto, más contento.
> Por favor, ponga el contexto en sus posts.
> Please, put context in your posts.
> 
> __Re: Excepto si
> 
> ¡Hola! ¡Bienvenido/a a los foros!
> 
> Si puede, por favor, ofrezca su intento, y entonces podremos ayudarlo/a.
> 
> Saludos
> 
> __Re: Verificar
> 
> Recomiendo que dé su intento antes de pedir por los de otros. Voy a ayudarlo/a esta vez, pero en el futuro, favor de ofrecer su intento.
> 
> [*This time I provided the translation for the forero/a]
> 
> *__Re: ¡Es un poco precipitado!
> 
> ¡Hola!
> 
> ¿Tiene usted la oración entera? Hay muchas maneras de traducir la frase, pero con contexto, podré ayudarlo/a más.
> 
> Saludos
> 
> __Re: the verbs times
> 
> ¡Hola!
> 
> No entiendo muy bien. Si puede, por favor, explíquelo en español y entonces yo podré ayudarlo/a.
> 
> Saludos
> 
> __Re: ship listed...
> 
> ¡Bienvenido/a a los foros!
> 
> Do you have any specific questions about the phrase? If you could, please offer your intent, and we'll be happy to take it from there.
> 
> Saludos
> 
> __Re: lying_
> _
> ¡Hola!
> 
> ¡Bienvenido/a a los foros!
> 
> Si puede, favor de ofrecer un poco de contexto.
> 
> Sin contexto, yo lo traduciría como:
> 
> "que estaban mintiendo"
> 
> Gracias
> 
> Saludos
> *[In this example, it looked like the forero/a's English wasn't too good, so I went ahead and translated the short phrase.]
> 
> *__Re: it's getting out of hand (idioms)
> 
> _ Creo que su traducción suena bien, pero favor de abrir un nuevo hilo.
> 
> Saludos



There are a bunch of smilies in my examples above but I'm only limited to 10 per post, so I had to take some out.

Of course you've all probably seen my signature: I'm a big fan of contexto. I am never afraid to politely ask the forero/a to follow the rules. As long as we ask politely, todo irá bien. 

Saludos


----------



## Moogey

Ok, very important.

This forum exists as a service to language lovers and people who have questions about the language they're learning. What are the priorities here? It sure seems to me that the only priority here is becoming rules. In that case, there is no room left for language help, and then what is the point in this forum?

There is a definite undertone of proper _procedure_ here. It seems as if the community (Who? The mods? I'm not sure) are molding each other to act like machines and answer questions in a certain way, as if there is only one way--one 'proper' way--to contribute to this forum.

Really guys, this is *just* a forum for languages. The people of this forum want to help others. I'm not saying they're shouldn't be any rules, but that they shouldn't be held to such a high importance. We are not here to ensure that the world is safe from attacks and that the asteroids stay in space and don't hit Earth. No, in that case, maybe these rules and procedures would be extremely important because our lives would be at stake. But what's at stake if we help someone? They'll learn? Hmm...

-M


----------



## Bienvenidos

Moogey said:


> Ok, very important.
> 
> This forum exists as a service to language lovers and people who have questions about the language they're learning. What are the priorities here? It sure seems to me that the only priority here is becoming rules. In that case, there is no room left for language help, and then what is the point in this forum?
> 
> There is a definite undertone of proper _procedure_ here. It seems as if the community (Who? The mods? I'm not sure) are molding each other to act like machines and answer questions in a certain way, as if there is only one way--one 'proper' way--to contribute to this forum.
> 
> Really guys, this is *just* a forum for languages. The people of this forum want to help others. I'm not saying they're shouldn't be any rules, but that they shouldn't be held to such a high importance. We are not here to ensure that the world is safe from attacks and that the asteroids stay in space and don't hit Earth. No, in that case, maybe these rules and procedures would be extremely important because our lives would be at stake. But what's at stake if we help someone? They'll learn? Hmm...
> 
> -M



You're right, it's just a language forum. There's been plenty of discussions about whether or not the rules have been taken too far. However, I'm positive that the rules, that some may see as "strict", were created with good intentions in mind. The idea behind it is that things will go efficiently. However, you're absolutely right, there's a lot of other similar forums to this that function perfectly fine without such strict rules. But we're all members here.

It feels strange, because over the past few months there have been so many foreros/as and threads questioning policy. I feel like I'm in Haiti and a revolt is brewing!  The forums need to be run efficiently, and I must say, we need the rules. Or else it would be crazy around here.

I'm not referring to anyone in particular when I say "questioning policy", certainly not Natasha. You all know there have been threads around this and that and that and this: I don't even know, or care, who wrote them, I just know they exist.

 Saludos


----------



## fenixpollo

Moogey said:


> There is a definite undertone of proper _procedure_ here. It seems as if the community (Who? The mods? I'm not sure) are molding each other to act like machines and answer questions in a certain way, as if there is only one way--one 'proper' way--to contribute to this forum.


 It's culture, not procedure, and it's based on a set of principles, based on a love of language and learning, based on respect and collegiality.

The administrator and the mods are setting the expectations, to be sure, but I don't see them in this thread.  We, the members, are saying, "These posters can be very demanding, obtuse, unhelpful and then when we comment on it, rude."  Then we say, "What should we do?"  

One response has been to ask people to provide their version first. That response seems to work in many cases, and then after the fact, many mods have added this response into the guidelines for posting in the forums that those mods oversee.

This debate came about precisely because of the fact that the guidelines for posting have been largely made up by senior members in their attempt to save their time and energy when responding, while at the same time continously living the principles of the forum, and trying to instill those principles in newer members.

There *is* one, "proper" way to contribute to this forum: with a love for learning, collegiality and respect.  The undertone you're hearing is the hum of those principles at work in the background. 

Saludos!


----------



## natasha2000

Elisa68 said:


> Respect should overrule everything.


 
I agree. I would like to add, decency, too.


----------



## Bienvenidos

Well...I'm back again. Now I'm starting to feel Natasha's frustrations once again. 

I just went to Vocabulario and there's a post in which someone is asking for a translation, which to me appears to be schoolwork. A member, and a mod, asked the forero for his intent, but he didn't reply. So other members just went ahead and did the thing for him. The kind foreros/as who translated the text were being very generous, but I fee that they essentially wasted their time in doing somebody else's work. 

Is there any way the moderators could close a thread to all posters *except* the author of the thread, so the author can add his/her context *before everyone else starts translating it* for him/her?

Saludos


----------



## ElaineG

> Is there any way the moderators could close a thread to all posters *except* the author of the thread, so the author can add his/her context *before everyone else starts translating it* for him/her?


 
That would be a neat trick, but not one we have so far.


----------



## Bienvenidos

ElaineG said:


> That would be a neat trick, but not one we have so far.



Darn. Maybe we can get it as a Christmas gift?   

 Saludos


----------



## Moogey

Bienvenidos said:


> Darn. Maybe we can get it as a Christmas gift?
> 
> Saludos



The folks here can't do that, it has to be done by the vBulletin developers 

Else they risk a lot, such as major forum malfunctioning.

-M


----------



## Bienvenidos

Moogey said:


> The folks here can't do that, it has to be done by the vBulletin developers
> 
> Else they risk a lot, such as major forum malfunctioning.
> 
> -M



Yeah, I was aware that the forum developers come up with new features. Maybe theres a vBulletin santa. You never know.

Saludos


----------



## fenixpollo

Bienvenidos said:


> Is there any way the moderators could close a thread to all posters *except* the author of the thread, so the author can add his/her context *before everyone else starts translating it* for him/her?


 Here are two previous threads where we have batted around other good-but-difficult-to-execute ideas like this one:

Too many contextless queries and Please, don't answer if you're not sure what to say.

Enjoy.


----------



## Kelly B

I am not responsible for one of the translation forums (I moderate in English Only), but I enjoy the French forum very much.

Natasha2000's suggestion in post #49 is also my favorite approach: something like

Hello and welcome, Mr. X, perhaps you could give it a try first? 

I really hope that he'll try it. If he cannot, that's okay - I'd just like to know first, before someone jumps in and does it for him. Sometimes one of the French mods will delete one of those premature answers. I do not think this is because giving someone a translation is forbidden there, but rather because he should have a chance at it _first_, _if _he is able.


----------



## GavinW

Kelly B said:


> Sometimes one of the French mods will delete one of those premature answers.


 
That strikes me as a bit severe. Normally (but not always), I send reminders to people that they should have a go at translating first themselves, but if I take the trouble to help someone I'd hate to see that work deleted. I'd feel someone was regulating excessively when my own generosity and fellow-feeling are involved.

Alternatively (assuming it has to be this way...): don't delete such keen-to-help posts, but "park" them somewhere and post them only after the initial poster has acknowledged acceptance of the basic principle, at least.

I don't know, even that seems excessive to me. Ultimately, WRF is based on people's desire to help others. How can you attach an automatic cut-off on that). And to what extent is it desirable to do so?


----------



## TrentinaNE

GavinW said:


> That strikes me as a bit severe. Normally (but not always), I send reminders to people that they should have a go at translating first themselves, but if I take the trouble to help someone I'd hate to see that work deleted. I'd feel someone was regulating excessively when my own generosity and fellow-feeling are involved.


I've only seen this occur in IT-EN on repeat inquiries from people who've said "Yes, I do want to try it on my own so I can learn better," but then continue to post translation requests for what appear to be homework assignments.  

It's a fine line. The "parking" suggestion is a nice one. I believe such a feature exists.

Elisabetta


----------



## timpeac

Cough cough.

Can I remind everyone that this thread is not to discuss the relative merits of certain modding policies (you will find threads in this forum to discuss any of the concerns raised so far).

This thread is to answer the question "are the rules of WR the same everywhere". The answer to that question is clearly "no". The vast majority of rules apply to all forums but there is some local variation. I can see that it is an on-topic extension to ask "_should_ they be the same everywhere?" so please feel free to discuss that but

further discussion of the various merits in themselves of 
- the homework rule
- greeting of new foreros
- application of standard spelling and punctuation
etc etc etc

_in this thread_ will be removed.

Thank you for your understanding.

Timpeac (moderator)


----------



## geve

I think we have to remember how rules appeared in the first place... So here's *my unofficial version of WRF history:* 
warning: keep in mind that it only comes from my reading here and there, since I was not actually born as a forera at the times! I am open to censorship and/or amendments from the veterans themselves)

______________________

Once upon a time, not so long ago, a wise man called Mike Kellogg came along and said, I want good dictionaries on the World Wide Web. So there he goes, creating dictionaries. Good job, thanks Mike! But his wisdom goes further than that: why, internet is by essence a medium that allows interaction, and interaction is essential in languages, and sometimes the question you have cannot be answered by a mere dictionary definition. 
"People will meet and share", Mike said; and he started doing complex things with computers to allow this to happen. At first, people were rather shy, and Mike was starting to worry: "Why doesn't anyone want to post on my forum???" Then a couple of fellows came around and saw just how great the place could be, and started sharing their interest for language. --That's how the forums were born.

This was 2 years ago. There are now more than seventy thousands members here, and they didn't all get there at once when the forums opened. Gradually the forum grew and there were more threads, more posts, more members. So someone said one day "Hey Mr Mike, if you want I'll help you keep this place organized" - and Mike said "Ok, thanks!". --That's how moderators were born.

Mods started to step in when needed, to help make the foruming an efficient and pleasurable experience for everyone. As they got more experienced at doing their mod's business, they realized that there were issues that kept coming back and took a lot of their energy. They thought that having a set of rules to which they could point newcomers would save them a lot of time. --That's how rules were created.
______________________

What was acceptable back then, because there were so few foreros that they all knew each other personally; is no longer possible now that two persons can visit daily during twelve months without meeting once, and that hundreds of new members register every week.

I realize this is more about "rules - where they come from and why we need them" than on the discrepancy between sub-forums; but these are precisions I wanted to make considering the different aspects raised by this thread. If in your opinion it was just one heck of a boring story then just go to hell delete this post 

Rules come from experience, they were implemented gradually as answers to daily foruming issues (and some are still added or modified after discussions here in C&S); and these issues might not be the same on each forum, depending on a variety of aspects (such as, whether it's a two languages forum or a "Language" only, the culture of the regular visitors, ...)

However, I think we all agree on the general guidelines and values we want to have here, do we not?

Maybe on the contrary, rules should be less detailed and specific, so that people would not get too fussy with them, leaving it to the mods to act as they see fit? Nah - I think we'd find drawbacks to that solution, too 


I apologize for the extended rambling on.


----------



## OlivierG

Hi ! 

Elroy was about to post a reply, but we decided that it would be appropriate for a French moderator to do it.

All right, let me try to settle this "double standard" issue once and for all.

The moderator in question posts almost exclusively in French-English and Cultural Discussions.
Of his more than 5,000 posts, 343(*) are in English Only, and even fewer - if any at all - are in forums other than FE or CD. This moderator's only "grievance" (with a few exceptions, maybe) is writing in lower-case; he does spell properly and he avoids chatspeak. After all, he is a moderator in that forum!

That said, capitalization is simply an area that is not a priority in the French forum (we have already established that some rules are not enforced in exactly the same way in every forum). Due to an unusually high level of traffic and a disproportionate level of newbie participation, the French moderators have other, more important concerns. 

Most importantly, this policy applies across the board. No member - moderator or otherwise - can get away with anything that other members of the same subforum are reprimanded for. There is no double standard!

_Cordialement,_
Olivier

_Edit: (*) I previously made a mistake in my search, and wrote 20 instead of 343. It doesn't change the point, but I apologize for the trouble it could have caused._


----------



## timpeac

fenixpollo said:


> My guess is that it was probably like this: Mike started the dictionary, then hordes of people started hitting the "contact us" link with questions about words that were not in the dictionary. "How do I get these people off my back?", Mike thought. "I know -- I'll open a forum so they can all get together to answer each others' questions and leave me alone in my musty sub-basement to keep fiddling with the pipes and the valves."
> 
> I think it was the same with the moderators: all of his time was spent with the newbies. He was running around, screaming "Context! Context!" and he felt like he was losing it. He approached one forero who was obviously the most level-headed of the language phreaks, and who was retired and could spend endless days and nights here, and he said, "Please be my moderator and slap some sense into these people." And it was so.
> 
> A really fun thing to do when you're bored is to sort this C&S forum in reverse order, by date, so that you see the first posts. It's amazing to see the genesis of some forum concepts that us newer members take for granted.


Whatever the genesis you haven't actually made this comment relevant to the thread by linking it to the title like Geve did by saying



> Rules come from experience, they were implemented gradually as answers to daily foruming issues (and some are still added or modified after discussions here in C&S); and these issues might not be the same on each forum, depending on a variety of aspects (such as, whether it's a two languages forum or a "Language" only, the culture of the regular visitors, ...)


which I agree is probably the reason there are different emphases in different forums. I also agree that a "one size fits all" blanket policy would be undesirable. Let's not forget that the vast majority of rules are the same all over the forum. It is only in some very small areas that there are some local differences between the forums and _within those forums_ everyone is treated identically.


----------



## Alxmrphi

Do none of you realise how stupid and pointless this debate here is?!

This is a learning forum not one about rules and regulations, can't we all just be a bit more relaxed and not get so hot tempered or "deletey-happy" and we wouldn't have a problem in the first place.

I just can't believe this! Take a step back and look what mayhem is being caused where there is no real need for it.


----------



## cuchuflete

Alex_Murphy said:


> Do none of you realise how stupid and pointless this debate here is?!
> 
> This is a learning forum not one about rules and regulations, ....
> 
> * Take a step back* ....



Very well stated Alex.

The forum Guidelines set a broad direction.  They are simple, useful generalities.   The rules are an operational mechanism, neither more nor less.  They are not objectives!

Once in a while someone will find an imagined or real discrepancy in the way some part of some rule is applied, and ask a valid question.  This can be helpful in the consistent application of the rules, but only if we remember that they are just working tools, and not objectives in themselves.

Any question such as this will lead a few people with grievances, real or imagined, to start to scream about injustices, violations of democratic principals, and how life in general is not fair.  Before long, there is a public display of petty bickering about things that are of no interest whatsoever to the huge majority of foreros, and which is a distraction from the basic, essential purpose of the forums-- to help one another enjoy and learn about languages, together.

Those who wish to earn an advanced degree in forum operational mechanics may do so.  While that goes on, I'll take the reminder from Alex, " This is a learning forum..." and return to participating in threads about language.


----------



## fenixpollo

timpeac said:


> Whatever the genesis you haven't actually made this comment relevant to the thread by linking it to the title like Geve did by saying...


 True, Tim. My last post was idle chat. Please feel free to delete it.





Alex_Murphy said:


> Do none of you realise how stupid and pointless this debate here is?!
> 
> This is a learning forum not one about rules and regulations, can't we all just be a bit more relaxed and not get so hot tempered or "deletey-happy" and we wouldn't have a problem in the first place.
> 
> I just can't believe this! Take a step back and look what mayhem is being caused where there is no real need for it.


I agree that it is stupid, but it is not pointless. The two points are these:
1) If there are going to be rules, it's important to have discussions about how to apply them equitably;
2) If there are going to be rules, then there must be consequences for breaking them. This conversation is very important for the people who must suffer the consequences when they break a rule (real or imagined).


----------



## geve

cuchuflete said:


> Any question such as this will lead a few people with grievances, real or imagined, to start to scream about injustices, violations of democratic principals, and how life in general is not fair. Before long, there is a public display of petty bickering about things that are of no interest whatsoever to the huge majority of foreros, and which is a distraction from *the basic, essential purpose of the forums-- to help one another enjoy and learn about languages, together*.


_Together_ - I strongly hope that no one overlooks that.
Please let us all never forget that disagreements between individuals (certainly this is something that can happen among us, we are but struggling human beings and we can't be best buddies with everyone), should not lead to irreversible decisions that would deprive us of great contributions.

Yes we're all here to help one another enjoy and learn about languages, and I think that any member who's proven a genuine interest in doing that, deserves a place here, even if sometimes his/her attitude needs a bit of "polishing".


----------



## ireney

OK Let me post this and you be the judge of how relevant it is.

I used to be a moderator in a forum that started off as a help forum for some RPG games. I was moderating a help section and the General Discussion section.

When I started doing that there were no set rules. Swear words and derogatory remarks were deleted and so was spam.

Since I had seen morons argue that we shouldn't delete even racist remarks I suggested we make some rules/guidelines.

(The help forum had some extra rules and was more rigidly "controlled" than GD even if the moderator was the same person - me- by the way)

Anyway, we started off with sort of general rules/guidelines. Short and sweet with room for flexibility.

Soon we had people complaining about this and that.

I then started a huge discussion about the rules and, after a consensus was reached, posted a nice, long _precise_ set of rules/guidelines with exact exceptions to the rules and so on and so forth.

Which meant that almost no one would read that rules and guidelines saga; those who did found something to complain too (mainly the difference between what was considered spam-chat in a help forum and what was considered spam-chat in GD)

I got fed up with it; the administrator came to my rescue by re-posting more vague rules. Guess what happened next (or read above)


----------



## TrentinaNE

ireney said:


> I got fed up with it; the administrator came to my rescue my re-posting more vague rules. Guess what happened next (or read above)


 
Groundhog Day?   

Elisabetta


----------



## ireney

Trentina yes, only I didn't learn ice-sculpturing, heimlich technique is still a mystery and it most definitely didn't help me realise I shouldn't be sarcastic and moody.


----------



## maxiogee

OlivierG said:


> Of his more than 5,000 posts, less than 20 are in English Only, and even fewer - if any at all - are in forums other than FE or CD. This moderator's only "grievance" (with a few exceptions, maybe) is writing in lower-case; he does spell properly and he avoids chatspeak. After all, he is a moderator in that forum!


But you agree with the bones of the complaint - that he posts in lowercase in a forum where it is not allowed and he doesn't get reprimanded for it, or if he does he pays no heed. This is the cause of Carlo's complaint.



> That said, capitalization is simply an area that is not a priority in the French forum


But it is elsewhere.



> Most importantly, this policy applies across the board. No member - moderator or otherwise - can get away with anything that other members of the same subforum are reprimanded for.


So why is he still doing it?


----------



## geve

maxiogee said:


> But you agree with the bones of the complaint - that he posts in lowercase in a forum where it is not allowed and he doesn't get reprimanded for it, or if he does he pays no heed. This is the cause of Carlo's complaint.


I wouldn't call it a "cause" (we are talking about big and small letters here  ), but I don't deny the legitimacy of the complaint - or rather, the question asking.
It seems to me that indeed the French forums are less touchy on capitalization, this is something I especially notice when I visit the EO and see that it's enforced a lot more severely there. 
So can we say we've established that rules and the emphasis put on them could slightly diverge according to the forum?

And then, after giving this all the thinking it deserves, could we all remain friends (or just act as decent human beings, since I've said before that we can't all be friends) and keep exchanging wonderful thrilling addictive comments on language as we've always done? 
I think the forum can live with a few missing block letters and with people who once wondered where these letters had gone.


----------



## elroy

maxiogee said:


> But you agree with the bones of the complaint - that *he posts in lowercase in a forum where it is not allowed* and he doesn't get reprimanded for it, or if he does he pays no heed. This is the cause of Carlo's complaint.


 This is not true, with the negligible exception of the handful of posts in EO.  As stated above, capitalization is not a priority in the French forum.  Other members who do not capitalize there are not reprimanded either.  





> But it is elsewhere.


 Right, and he doesn't post there. 


> So why is he still doing it?


 He does not do it where it is not allowed.


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## ElaineG

> So can we say we've established that rules and the emphasis put on them could slightly diverge according to the forum?


 
I think that's established as fact. Phew.  Something is.

Now, is anyone harmed by that?  I can't possibly see how.  I think of it like the U.S. legal system (can't help myself) -- we have a federal constitution, the WRF rules, established by Mike, which are the supreme law of the land, and we have some jurisdictional variation from "state" to "state".  

In "my" forum (please note the quotation marks, no need to travel down _that_ little dead end any more), we see correct capitalization as part of spelling, and we ask all posters to spell, punctuate and capitalize correctly.  Among other reasons, it is not at all irrelevant to language learning, as Italian and English capitalize different things and punctuate differently.  Plus you would be surprised how many native young people don't actually know the correct usage of such things, particularly apostrophes and ellipses.  All foreros are treated equally on this score _within these subforums_, and that includes moderators .

Does anyone suffer if French does things differently?  Where is the injury?  I'm searching for it, and not seeing it.  Who is hurt if the drinking age is 21 in NY and 18 in New Orleans?  

What I am seeing is that people have used this thread to heap ashes on the head of one individual, even while calling out for respect and dignity.  That saddens me, although I am enough of a cynic to say that it doesn't surprise.


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## cuchuflete

For the tenacious types who insist on trying to stir up a big deal where there is none, please read my signature.  It is a personal philosphy that guides me in not deleting or editing a great many posts by some of the loudest complainers in this and other threads.  That even holds true for those who frequently push the envelope, apparently just to see how much they can get away with, and with no benefit to the forums.


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## danielfranco

I believe that the concept of "ground rules" is the best approach to keep these forums from becoming unwieldy.
Didn't we all learned that when we "was" kids? "The trash can over there is 'outta-bounds'", we would say and nobody complained too much when we went to a different lot to play next day and somebody said, "the big rock that looks like Jimmy Durante is 'outta-bounds' today".

Anyway, that's how I think the moderator team has been handling the forums. And well done, I say. They've done the best they can for as long as they have. So there.
I think Natasha asked a very pertinent question (I wasn't sure of the answer, either, and it turns out I was wrong, too!) and I think it was very well answered.

Forgot to mention: If I didn't like li'l Jimmy's rules, but it was his ball we "was" playing with, then I had two choices: play along with li'l Jimmy the way he wanted me to play, or not play at all.


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## mkellogg

I'm sorry, emotions are running too high right now.  I'm closing this thread to further discussion.  Maybe in a few weeks when everybody is more calm we can have a reasoned discussion about this in public.

Mike


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