# beim Kellner



## Greenmouse(:<)

Hello to everyone! I'd like to know why is "beim Kellner" used in this phrase, instead of "an den Kellner": Maria bezahlt einen Kaffe und einen Toast beim Kellner. Do they mean the same? Thanks in advance!


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## JClaudeK

"etw. an den Kellner bezahlen" ist kein idiomatisches Deutsch. Es muss heißen: "Maria bezahlt ..... beim Kellner." (it's a set phrase)


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## Perseas

This is one of the cases that has also made me think about. I believe the structure "bei + person who provides a service (e.g. beim Arzt, beim Kellner, beim Bäcker...") is very common in German.
Beispiele: _ich bezahle beim Kellner, ich hole Brot beim Bäcker, ich bestelle etwas beim Kellner, ich kaufe beim Händler ein Auto..._



JClaudeK said:


> "etw. an den Kellner bezahlen" ist kein idiomatisches Deutsch.



Um die Frage von OP etwas zu ändern, wäre es nicht idiomatisch zu sagen: "Maria bezahlt dem Kellner einen Kaffee und einen Toast"?


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## JClaudeK

Perseas said:


> "Maria bezahlt dem Kellner einen Kaffee und einen Toast."


könnte so verstanden werden, dass sie dem Kellner einen Kaffee und einen Toast spendiert.


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## Demiurg

"an" bezeichnet den Ort, "bei" die Person:

_Er bezahlt an der Theke beim Kellner.
Er bezahlt an der Kasse bei der Kassiererin._


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## Greenmouse(:<)

Thanks to all! So "etw. an den Kellner bezahlen" is not idiomatic from Germany, but I think the meaning "to" assigned to "bei" is not very common too, or at least you don't get this meaning in sites like this one, or Google translate. As far as I can see in all the examples you people wrote, "bei" can be understood as "to [somebody]". If this is not correct, please tell me in which way can I say "pay something to the waiter", because that was my initial intention when I "mistakenly" wrote "Maria paid a coffee and a toast to the waiter" (At least that's what I think it says in the phrase "Maria bezahlt einen Kaffe und einen Toast beim Kellner"). Please excuse that I don't use german to express myself, but my level of that language is quite basic (remember I am a mouse...).


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## elroy

Greenhouse, I think you're overthinking this.  "Bei" does not mean "to" here.  The money is not going directly to the waiter, cashier, etc.; i.e. they're not pocketing it.  You're depositing the money with them, but you're actually paying the establishment, not them.  This aligns with the normal uses of "bei."


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## uress

Ok, Elroy already said what I also wanted to. 
And it would be the same strange to say _"beim" owner of the shop_ if we are speaking of a little one man shop.


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## Perseas

The most idiomatic way is "Maria bezahlt den Kaffee beim Kellner", okay.
But if the waiter were to ask the customer to pay the bill because he would have to finish with his work soon, would these sentences be idiomatic?
a. Können Sie jetzt bei mir die Rechnung bezahlen, weil ...?
b. Können Sie jetzt die Rechnung bezahlen, weil ...?
c. Können Sie jetzt mich bezahlen, weil ...?
d. Können Sie jetzt bezahlen, weil ...?

I am not sure about the third one, I think a., b., and d. are correct. Thank you.


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## uress

Also _können _hört sich für mich schon komisch an, würde ich nie sagen.
_
Würden Sie, *bitte*..._ oder _Möchten Sie, *bitte*..._ oder _Könnten Sie, *bitte*... ...die Rechnung jetzt (schon) bezahlen/begleichen, da/weil/denn...?

a. Wenn es normalerweise nicht bei ihm bezahlt wird.
c. Khm... khm... ihn bezahlen... khm... khm...   _


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## Perseas

uress said:


> Also _können _hört sich für mich schon komisch an, würde ich nie sagen.
> _
> Würden Sie, *bitte*..._ oder _Möchten Sie, *bitte*..._ oder _Könnten Sie, *bitte*... ...die Rechnung jetzt (schon) bezahlen/begleichen, da/weil/denn...?
> 
> a. Wenn es normalerweise nicht bei ihm bezahlt wird._


 Ok, danke uress.


uress said:


> _c. Khm... khm... ihn bezahlen... khm... khm...   _


Also würde c. nur als Witz aufgefasst werden


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## uress

Also wenn du eine ältere und noch dazu wohlhabende Dame bist, bin mir ziemlich sicher, daß er wollte, daß du ihn bezahlen könntest 
_Ansonsten wäre ich nur recht neugierig, was alles der arme Kellner auf diese Frage von manchen Schlagfertigen Personen so zu hören bekommen würde _


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## Perseas

Alles klar!


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## Frieder

_Beim_ Kellner zahlen: You pay for what you had, the waiter gets the money, he gives it to the owner of the restaurant.

_An den_ Kellner zahlen: You pay an agreed sum (maybe  for a bycycle he sold you) to the waiter which he keeps for himself. No restaurant involved.

Den Kellner bezahlen: The waiter gets remunerated for his work by the owner of the restaurant.


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## Greenmouse(:<)

Thank you Frieder, is (a bit) more clear now. Anyway, in my opinion, the difference is very subtle. Here in Argentina we pay "to (an den) the waiter", maybe because we consider that he temporarily keeps the money until giving it to the owner. It sounds odd to say "I pay with (bei) the waiter, because it's  as if me and the waiter went together to pay my meal to the owner of the restaurant, the cashier, or whoever. However, I've found that bei, cannot only be translated as "with", but also "near", "for", "in", "during" and "at". Is any of these meanings closer to what german speakers want to mean by "beim Kellner"?


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## uress

_Bei _is not _with_. You could say _at the waiter_, this would be quite the same. And _bei _is simply the way we say it. The Argentinian paying _zum _Kellner sounds much much odder...


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## elroy

Trying to translate "bei" using a single-word preposition in this case is a losing battle.  There is no direct equivalent in English.  "With" is wrong semantically, and "at" is wrong grammatically.  The French "chez" has the same meaning.

Basically, the literal meaning is "where the waiter is" (although it's implied that you are giving the money to the waiter, not just leaving it somewhere near them).

In Central America, "donde" is used with this meaning; I don't know about Argentina.  But a literal Central American equivalent would be "Pagué la factura donde el mesero."

Seriously, though, I think you just have to accept that this is way it's said in German.   Another not necessarily intuitive usage of "bei" I recently came across is "bei einem Witz lachen."  In this case the meaning is something like "when a joke occurs."


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## Greenmouse(:<)

uress said:


> _Bei _is not _with_. You could say _at the waiter_, this would be quite the same. And _bei _is simply the way we say it. The Argentinian paying _zum _Kellner sounds much much odder...


Bei IS with (though not one of the most common meanings), just look for the "bei" at this website. I never said "zum Kellner", but "an den Kellner" because I make a simple association from spanish and english. In this languages, you say: I pay "to the" waiter exactly the same way as: I pay/go/walk/run/phone "to the" hospital, so I thought the same logic would apply in german. As to your phrase "bei is simply the way we say it", is evident that I know that. I just try to find out WHY you say it that way. I know it may not be easy to answer this, but I think this is a proper place to ask for that.


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## elroy

You already have all the answers you need.


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## Greenmouse(:<)

elroy said:


> Trying to translate "bei" using a single-word preposition in this case is a losing battle.  There is no direct equivalent in English.  "With" is wrong semantically, and "at" is wrong grammatically.  The French "chez" has the same meaning.
> 
> Basically, the literal meaning is "where the waiter is" (although it's implied that you are giving the money to the waiter, not just living it somewhere near them).
> 
> In Central America, "donde" is used with this meaning; I don't know about Argentina.  But a literal Central American equivalent would be "Pagué la factura donde el mesero."
> 
> Seriously, though, I think you just have to accept that this is way it's said in German.   Another not necessarily intuitive usage of "bei" I recently came across is "bei einem Witz lachen."  In this case the meaning is something like "when a joke occurs."


Thank you very much elroy. So, the brief conclusion I could make at this moment of the discussion is that, while "bezahlen das Essen beim Kellner" (pay the food where / near the waiter) is a common interpretation in places like Germany and Central America, this is not the case in USA and Argentina, where we would say "bezahlen das Essen an den Kellner" (pay the food to the waiter), so that's why it sounds odd for people from this countries.


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## elroy

Greenmouse:)<) said:


> is a common usage in [...] Central America


 No, no, I wasn't trying to say "donde" would actually be used in Central America in this context.  I was just giving a possible Spanish equivalent.  You seemed to be interested in understanding the literal meaning of this "bei" and why it's used in this context.  The problem is that English and Spanish don't have single-world equivalents (except for the Central American "donde").  French has "chez," but I don't think "chez" would be used in this context.  "Chez" is just a general semantic equivalent of "bei."  Arabic has عند and Norwegian has "hos," which are also equivalents, but I know Arabic would _not _use عند in this context, and I'm not sure about Norwegian, but probably not. 

My point is that some languages have an equivalent of "bei" while others don't.  Those who speak a language with a "bei" equivalent may find the German usage resonating with them more easily, but either way, I do think we have to assume this is a German-specific usage, just like "bei einem Witz lachen."

I hope that's clear.


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## Kajjo

Just a very general remark to this discussion: Selecting the proper preposition is very difficult in most languages and learning the correct preposition to go with a certain verb, phrase, idiom is a challenge for everyone.

Please forget the notion of explaining why and do not attempt to translate literally. Just memorise the proper prepositions.


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## berndf

Kajjo said:


> Please forget the notion of explaining why and do not attempt to translate literally. Just memorise the proper prepositions.


It isn't sufficient reason to "forget" something just because something is difficult. A proper and deeper understanding of the meaning of the preposition "bei" is important in German, especially since many languages lack an equivalent. I think Elroy summarised it very nicely:


elroy said:


> My point is that some languages have an equivalent of "bei" while others don't. Those who speak a language with a "bei" equivalent may fine the German usage resonating with them more easily, but either way, I do think we have to assume this is a German-specific usage, just like "bei einem Witz lachen."


In the end you have just to accept it as a specific expression you can't explain my logic and semantic alone. But understanding the semantics of _bei/chez_ certainly helps to develop a better intuition.


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## Perseas

Frieder said:


> _Beim_ Kellner zahlen: You pay for what you had, the waiter gets the money, he gives it to the owner of the restaurant.
> 
> _An den_ Kellner zahlen: You pay an agreed sum (maybe  for a bycycle he sold you) to the waiter which he keeps for himself. No restaurant involved.
> 
> Den Kellner bezahlen: The waiter gets remunerated for his work by the owner of the restaurant.


I guess therefore, for the patient who pays the visit to the doctor, it would be "er bezahlt den Arzt", because the doctor himself gets the money and he owns the office...Thank you.


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## JClaudeK

berndf said:


> But understanding the semantics of _bei/*chez*_ certainly helps to develop a better intuition.


_Maria bezahlt einen Kaffee und einen Toast beim Kellner._
Auf Französisch würde man sagen: Marie paie/ règle un/ son café ... *auprès* *du* garçon. (nicht "chez")


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## berndf

JClaudeK said:


> _Maria bezahlt einen Kaffee und einen Toast beim Kellner._
> Auf Französisch würde man sagen: Marie paie/ règle un/ son café ... *auprès* *du* garçon. (nicht "chez")


Ja, in der Tat. Darum sagte ich auch, Elroy habe recht, dass der Ausdruck letztendlich typisch Deutsch sei. Aber es ist sehr gut, dass du _auprès_ erwähnt hast. Französisch hat mit _auprès_ und _chez_ tatsächlich zwei Präpositionen, die im Deutschen beide mit _bei_ übersetzt werden. Für diejenigen, die Französisch beherrschen, kann es helfen die Bedeutung von _bei_ besser zu verstehen.


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## Greenmouse(:<)

berndf said:


> It isn't sufficient reason to "forget" something just because something is difficult. A proper and deeper understanding of the meaning of the preposition "bei" is important in German, especially since many languages lack an equivalent.


I agree with you, but I should say something about the last part. I think that every country that has uses and customs in common with other countries, may have different ways of expressing them, but the meaning remains the same (equivalent). So one of the aims between speakers of different languages should be trying to find out which is that common meaning, in order to have the same interpretation of things or facts, regardless if they are expressed by different words, or combination of them.


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