# Hebrew: Totafot



## rushalaim

I heard three opinions of derivation of the word *טוטפת* :
1) Some say that word consists of two _Coptic_ meanings _"two"_ and _"two"_.
2) Some say it's _Aramaic_ *טוטפא* (pl. *טוטפן*) with _Arabic_ root *טוף* (_"to surround"_).
3) Others say it's _Accadian_ root *טטף* _"tatapu"_ (_"to surround"_).
Please, could anyone explain the root of the word *טוטפת *and the language of derivation?

I heard that _Hebrew_ *ציצת* as if also derived from _Accadian "sisiktu"_.


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## origumi

rushalaim said:


> 1) Some say that word consists of two _Coptic_ meanings _"two"_ and _"two"_.


How can a word attested centuries before the Coptic language (Coptic phase of the Egyptian language) came into existence, be based on Coptic?

The Hebrew Wikipedia says (I'm too lazy to translate):


> שמן המקראי של התפילין הוא "טטפת", כמתואר בפסוק "וקשרתם לאות על ידך, והיו לטטפת בין עיניך". פירושה של מילה זו לא היה נהיר גם בעת העתיקה, ועד היום אין לה פתרון חד משמעי. חז"ל שהתקשו בפירוש המילה, הציעו בין היתר שהיא מורכבת משתי מילים, "טט" ו"פת", שכל אחת מהן מייצגת את הספרה 2 בשפה זרה, ומכאן המקור לארבע הפרשיות‏[1]; בפשיטתא מהמאה החמישית המילה מתורגמת כ"זיכרון" ו"רושם"; בוולגטה מהמאה הרביעית והחמישית המילה מתוארת כ"תלוי למזכרת" ו"נע אנה ואנה", ובתרגום אונקלוס היא מתורגמת כ"תפילין". פרשנים רבים הציעו להקביל את המילה למילה "טטפת" שבמשנה, שפירושה תכשיט (מסכת שבת, ו, ה).‏[2] פירוש נוסף מזהה את מקור המילה "טטפת" במלה המצרית ddf.t, המסמלת את נחש האוריאוס שעיטר את מצחו של המלך המצרי כסמל להגנת האלים עליו.‏[3]
> 
> לאחרונה חוקרי תולדות הכתב העברי הציעו שמשמעות טוטפות היא גלגלים או גלגולים כלומר גליונות או גווילים, וקשורה גם בגולגולת - בעקבות סימן האות טית או טט, בכתב הכנעני (והעברי) העתיק, ומקומה ברשימת כלי עבודת השדה, יחד עם יד - יתד, כף - את חפירה, ולמד -שוט.‏[4]


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## rushalaim

*origumi*, Don't you think, the word *טוטפת* derived from the _Coptic_ in sense of *טוט* is the Ancient-Egyptian god? Why anyone interpret it like two meanings _"two"_ and _"two"_? Maybe, because there is already *תות* . By the way, *ט*-letter may be interchangable with *ת*- or *צ*-letters. May I assume, the High-priest's  *ציץ* the gold-plate surrounding a head derived from the same name *טוט* ? And _Accadian_ word *ציצת* with the root *צוץ* (_Aramaic_ *ציצא* , Pl. *ציצין*) is from *טוט* ?
*ציצת* also surrounding one's body.


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## berndf

rushalaim said:


> Don't you think, the word *טוטפת* derived from the _Coptic_ in sense of *טוט* is the Ancient-Egyptian god?


No. Ancient-Egyptian is Ancient-Egyptian and Coptic is Coptic. Different things, different times. Biblical Hebrew can be influenced by Ancient-Egyptian but not by Coptic.


rushalaim said:


> By the way, *ט*-letter may be interchangable with *ת*- or *צ*-letters.


Where dis you get this from?


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## origumi

rushalaim said:


> *origumi*, Don't you think, the word *טוטפת* derived from the _Coptic_ in sense of *טוט* is the Ancient-Egyptian god? Why anyone interpret it like two meanings _"two"_ and _"two"_?


The theory about "two" and "two" was introduced by Rabbi Akiva רבי עקיבא, of the 1st-2nd century AD, quoted in the Gemara בבלי מנחות ל"ד ב. What he says is "_tot_ in _Catpi _means 'two', _fot_ in _Afriqi _means 'two'" (and therefore _totafot_). _Catpi_ (or _Cotpi_) is usually understood as Coptic, _Afriqi_ as Phrygian. Rabbi Akiva was one of the greatest spiritual leaders & intellectuals of his time but not a linguist.


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## rushalaim

May I suggest that:

*טוטפת* - _Accadian_ _"tatapu"_ root *טטף* (_Aramaic sg._ *טוטפא* and _pl._ *טוטפן*)
*ציצת* - _Accadian_ _"sisiktu"_ root *צוץ* (_Aramaic sg._ *ציצא* and _pl._ *ציצין*)
*ציץ* -_Accadian_ _"sisiktu"_ root *צוץ* (_Aramaic sg._ *ציצא* and _pl._ *ציצין*)
*מזוזה* - _Accadian_ _"zazu"_ root *זוז* (_Aramaic sg._ *מזוזא* and _pl._ *מזוזין*)

Do all those 4 words derive from the one name of the Egyptian-god *טוט* with the meaning for all _"to surround"_(_guard_)?


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## origumi

Suggestions better be accompanied by some beef.

According to my feeble Akkadian knowledge, tatapu = to surround, sisiktu = cloth, zazu = to divide.


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## rushalaim

*טוטפת *- surrounding ribbon around a head.
*ציץ *- surrounding _"p'til-tehelet"_ around a head with the gold-plate.
*ציצת *- surrounding _"p'til-tehelet"_ around a body.
*מזוזה *- three door-posts surrounding the entrance to protect.

The number 15 _Hebrew_ writes as *טו* not to write God's name *יה*
The number 16 _Hebrew_ writes as *טז* not to write God's name *יו*
However we use freely God's name in common names like ירמ*יה*
Maybe those numeral inscriptions are remnants of those Egyptian-numerals with Egyptian-god name *טוט *?


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## origumi

What you're saying (if I follow the logic) is:

1. There's the Egyptian god name Thoth that means "to surround, to guard"
2. Akkadian borrowed it into 3 different words, namely tatapu ("to surround"), sisiktu ("cloth"), zazu ("to divide")
3. Hebrew/Aramaic developed 3 different religion-related terms based on these 3 Akkadian words, yet the new meanings follow the original Egyptian

Sounds far-fetched to me.


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## rushalaim

I think there was very old pagan Egyptian belief in the Middle-East. Later, Jews rejected it and proclaimed their own new belief system, replacing pagan meanings with monotheistic, though keeping its original ancient pagan sounding.
Thoth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## rushalaim

berndf said:


> Where dis you get this from?


*ט* replaces with *ת* , replaces with *צ* , replaces with *ז* . 
For example, *ט*בח and *ז*בח (_Aramaic_ *ד*בח), 
ק*ט*ב and ק*צ*ב,
ח*ט*ף and ח*ת*ף .


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## berndf

rushalaim said:


> *ט* replaces with *ת* , replaces with *צ* , replaces with *ז* .
> For example, *ט*בח and *ז*בח (_Aramaic_ *ד*בח),
> ק*ט*ב and ק*צ*ב,
> ח*ט*ף and ח*ת*ף .


Can you provide any substantiation for your claim that טבח and זבח or קטב and קצב or חטף and חתף are cognate?


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## rushalaim

The word *טוטפת *consists of two Coptic roots *טוט* and *פוט* ?
*פוטיפרע *(_Copt."who belongs to sun-god"_)


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## origumi

rushalaim said:


> The word *טוטפת *consists of two Coptic roots *טוט* and *פוט* ?
> *פוטיפרע *(_Copt."who belongs to sun-god"_)


AFAIK: in the Egyptian name Potiphera, the "phera" part is the sun god Ra, while the "poti" part is "given by" (or "belongs to"). So if you're looking for two divinity names in "totafot", Potiphera doesn't support the case.

Also, Thoth is a Greek pronunciation whose Egyptian origin is not fully known. Therefore neither "tot" nor "fot" has clear relation to a divinity.


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## rushalaim

origumi said:


> Also, Thoth is a Greek pronunciation whose Egyptian origin is not fully known. Therefore neither "tot" nor "fot" has clear relation to a divinity.


That Egyptian-god has many names: *אוה* _Coptic_ _"Djehuty" _(_"Ibis"_) because his beak looks like new-moon, *אוה* _"Baboon"_, and _Coptic_ *טוט* or *תות* _"Tawt"._


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## origumi

The Coptic name is anachronistic, as #2 and #4 above say. According to the Wikipedia link quoted above, "(Egyptian) Djehuty is sometimes alternatively rendered as Jehuti, Tahuti, Tehuti, Zehuti, Techu, or Tetu. Greek versions Thot, Thout and Thoth are derived from the letters ḏḥwty". So the Israelites could hypothetically hear "tot", but this requires supportive material that we haven't seen in this thread so far.


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## rushalaim

origumi said:


> The Coptic name is anachronistic, as #2 and #4 above say. According to the Wikipedia link quoted above, "(Egyptian) Djehuty is sometimes alternatively rendered as Jehuti, Tahuti, Tehuti, Zehuti, Techu, or Tetu. Greek versions Thot, Thout and Thoth are derived from the letters ḏḥwty". So the Israelites could hypothetically hear "tot", but this requires supportive material that we haven't seen in this thread so far.


As far as I can see, _"Djehuty" _has 5 hieroglyphs, however _"Tawt"_-name has only 3 hieroglyphs. Thus, _"Tawt"_ cannot be derived from _"Djehuty"._
Does _Hebrew_ describe the names of that Egyptian-god?
*אוה *- _"to describe"_ (_Tawt_-god invented maths and writing)
*אוה* - _"to howl"_ (_Tawt_-god is baboon howling)
*תוה* or *תו* - _"to mark"_ (_Tawt_-god's name) *תות
Gods and Godesses*


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## berndf

rushalaim said:


> _Coptic_ *טוט* or *תות* _"Tawt"._


Thoth is still the Greek and not the Egyptian pronunciation. A biblical Hebrew or Akkadian word cannot be derived from a ptolemaic period pronunciation. Coptic pronunciation is even more irrelevant. Coptic starts about 300-400 year after the end of Biblical Hebrew.


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## origumi

I'm trying to understand the arguments. Are you saying that:
* Hebrew "totafot" is derived from two(?) Egyptian god names (so what are these names?)
* Hebrew root תוה is derived from the name of Egyptian god that in Greek is written as Thoth and in Coptic Tawt ? (where did the final "t" go?)
* Hebrew root אוה is derived from the "Baboon" name of the same Egyptian god? (how this contributes to understanding "totafot"?)
* All of the above?

Seems you were busy preparing arguments of this sort. Maybe it would be more productive, if we want to get to any conclusion in finite time, to list all of them at once. Also, if your point is "many Hebrew words are derived from the Egyptian religion" or alike - simply say it, instead of taking the longer route.


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## berndf

rushalaim said:


> As far as I can see, _"Djehuty" _has 5 hieroglyphs, however _"Tawt"_-name has only 3 hieroglyphs. Thus, _"Tawt"_ cannot be derived from _"Djehuty"._


Now you have lost me completely. Coptic was never written with hieroglyphs. So, you are now talking about Middle-Egyptian and not about Coptic any more?


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## rushalaim

origumi said:


> * Hebrew "totafot" is derived from two(?) Egyptian god names (so what are these names?)


*טוטפת *derived from two Egyptian words (as you mentioned above): *טוט *(_Tawt_-god) and *פוט *(_"belongs to"_), I assume.


origumi said:


> * Hebrew root תוה is derived from the name of Egyptian god that in Greek is written as Thoth and in Coptic Tawt ? (where did the final "t" go?)


*אוה *and* תאה *and* תוה *three roots have the one common meaning, isn't it? The word *תו* derived from the root *תוה* , isn't it? As ninth as 22-th _Hebrew_ letters represent _Tawt_-god. Look at their _Phoenician_ depiction! *תו *is* תות *, isn't it?


origumi said:


> * Hebrew root אוה is derived from the "Baboon" name of the same Egyptian god?


The root *אוה* also has the meaning _"to howl"_ like a baboon, isn't it? _Tawt_-god is depicted as a baboon too. Maybe _Hebrew_ connects it?


origumi said:


> (how this contributes to understanding "totafot"?)


May the word *טוטפת *contain the Egyptian-god _"Tawt"_ name in itself? And be compounded of two words like Egyptian *פוטיפרע *?


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## rushalaim

berndf said:


> Now you have lost me completely. Coptic was never written with hieroglyphs. So, you are now talking about Middle-Egyptian and not about Coptic any more?


I say about _Ancient-Egyptian_ hieroglyphs and their _Coptic_ sounding (Champalion deciphered _Egyptian_ hieroglyphs using _Coptic_ sounding 200 years ago.)


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## rushalaim

*וקשרתם לאות על־ידך והיו לטטפת בין עיניך*
The word *אות* also derived from the root *אוה*
The root *אוה *is relative to the root *תוה* and the name *תות* , I think.


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## berndf

rushalaim said:


> I say about _Ancient-Egyptian_ hieroglyphs and their _Coptic_ sounding (Champalion deciphered _Egyptian_ hieroglyphs using _Coptic_ sounding 200 years ago.)


The correct hypothesis that Coptic is the successor language of ancient Egyptian aided the reconstruction of ancient Egyptian. But this means by no means Coptic pronunciation is a reference ancient Egyptian. This would be as wrong as assuming classical Latin sounded like modern French.

There is absolutely no reason to assume "Thoth" represented a valid Middle-Egyptian pronunciation. The Middle-Egyptian reconstruction is _DHwty_. But this is only a phonemic reconstruction. The precise pronunciation remains doubtful.


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## origumi

rushalaim said:


> *טוטפת *derived from two Egyptian words (as you mentioned above): *טוט *(_Tawt_-god) and *פוט *(_"belongs to"_), I assume.
> 
> *אוה *and* תאה *and* תוה *three roots have the one common meaning, isn't it? The word *תו* derived from the root *תוה* , isn't it? As ninth as 22-th _Hebrew_ letters represent _Tawt_-god. Look at their _Phoenician_ depiction! *תו *is* תות *, isn't it?
> 
> The root *אוה* also has the meaning _"to howl"_ like a baboon, isn't it? _Tawt_-god is depicted as a baboon too. Maybe _Hebrew_ connects it?
> 
> May the word *טוטפת *contain the Egyptian-god _"Tawt"_ name in itself? And be compounded of two words like Egyptian *פוטיפרע *?


I find it inappropriate for the forum that hosts us, even upsetting, to have this kind of discussion. You rarely bring on linguistically acceptable arguments, you repeat arguments that were rejected earlier, you base assumptions on far-fetched theories, you keep ignoring answer beyond short fragments. Well, I'm giving up. Really, man, do you seriously think that if a certain Egyptian name (Potiphera) is built of two word, this can convince that another word, (totafot) is a combination of two words? And specifically when you failed to convince about the first ("tot", which you relate to the much-later Coptic), and never suggested where the second word "tot" is derived from.


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## rushalaim

origumi said:


> I find it inappropriate for the forum that hosts us, even upsetting, to have this kind of discussion. You rarely bring on linguistically acceptable arguments, you repeat arguments that were rejected earlier, you base assumptions on far-fetched theories, you keep ignoring answer beyond short fragments. Well, I'm giving up. Really, man, do you seriously think that if a certain Egyptian name (Potiphera) is built of two word, this can convince that another word, (totafot) is a combination of two words? And specifically when you failed to convince about the first ("tot", which you relate to the much-later Coptic), and never suggested where the second word "tot" is derived from.


Perhaps, you think *טוטפת *is _Hebrew_? What are your arguments, if even now Jews are using _Aramaic_ *תפלין* ?
If you assume, *טוטפת *is Hebrew, can you explain the root, please?
If you assume, *טוטפת *isn't Hebrew, can you explain the root, please?


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## berndf

rushalaim said:


> Perhaps, you think *טוטפת *is _Hebrew_?


First of all, it is Hebrew because if occurs in the Torah (Deuteronomy 6:8). Period.

Now you can theorize where it ultimately comes from. But whatever etymology you propose, it has to explain how the word enters a 7th century BC text. Arguing with Coptic pronunciation is invalid.


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## origumi

rushalaim said:


> Perhaps, you think *טוטפת *is _Hebrew_? What are your arguments, if even now Jews are using _Aramaic_ *תפלין* ?
> If you assume, *טוטפת *is Hebrew, can you explain the root, please?
> If you assume, *טוטפת *isn't Hebrew, can you explain the root, please?


Totafot טֹטָפֹת is Hebrew.
Hebrew may have borrowed it from a foreign language, including Egyptian.
The etymology is unknown for millennia, unfortunately I am not knowledgeable enough to resolve it.
The logic "we don't know the Etymology of totafot ergo it's Coptic and combines two god names" is... whatever.
Idem about "Jews use Aramaic words ergo totafot is Coptic".
Reading the conventional opinions before starting with revisionist ones could be a good practice.
Listening to answers that refute some of your intermediate assumptions may also be beneficial.


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