# Italian accents



## thrice

Back in September, I went to Italy and stayed there for 3 months to study italian and travel. I spent most of my time in Florence, but I also went to many other places. I was able to hear a difference between the accents spoken in the different cities that I travelled to (especially the difference between Florentine and Neopolitan accents,) and it got me thinking about accents in general. These are a few questions that have been piling up in my head, but I never really had anyone to ask. Please, indulge me if you could 

How precise can one be when trying figure out where someone is from by their accent? (i.e. region, city).  

Is there a generic rural accent (what one would probably call in America a "hick" accent)?

For that matter, is there a generic "posh" accent? (as the most proper BE accents sound to us Americans)

In the English language, many people find foreign accents sexy or attractive (especially any coming from the romance languages). Is that true in Italian as well? If so, which? 

In English, if one hears a non-native speaker, it's generally easy to figure out which language is their native language. I'm guessing this is a pretty universal phenomenon..... ?

Are you (as Italians) able to differentiate between the different accents in English? (Perhaps the ones that aren't able to are the same ones that wouldn't even bother struggling to get this far down in this post, however)

Sorry for the laundry list of questions, but I think that this is all fascinating stuff. I'm sorry if any of the questions sounds silly or stupid, but I think a lot them come from the fact that I have no second language that I speak fluently, so I have no idea what things are specific or peculiar to English and what are universal. I'd really appreciate any input on the subject, so I thank you in advance 


*EDIT* By the way, I watched an Italian movie last night called "Respiro", and I could hardly understand anything they said in it. Has anyone seen it and recognized what dialect/accent they spoke with? It may be Sicilian, because at one point in the movie someone new to the town says to one of the little boys that he doesn't understand him... but I'm not sure if that was because he was speaking Sicilian or if it was just because his accent was so thick.... Are there accents that are so thick it's hard for an Italian to understand?


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## jupa

Brilliant questions! I too ponder the same thoughts. Though I have no solid answers because I'm not a native Italian, I've had an experience regarding this subject this summer. I also stayed in Italy, and any time that my cousins and I encountered English speaking tourists, I'd ask them(after hearing them speak some English and some Italian) if they could tell where they were from. They were able to identify Americans, maybe because of the contact w/ my family, but were unable to distinguish the others. Now, don't take that as a generalization! This only expresses my cousins abilities!

Peace,
Julia


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## Red Frog

I agree, great questions, and ones that have spun round in my head many a time as accents and regionalisms fascinate me...

I've seen the film "Respiro" and it's one of my favourites   It's set on Lampedusa, a small island off Sicily, so they're speaking Sicilian, or I believe maybe even a Lampedusan variation of this... The natives will confirm...


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## moodywop

If you are interested in the topic of accents and the attitude to foreign accents more in general, and not just with regard to Italian, you will find the following threads of interest(in the Cultural Discussions forum):

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=27918

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=62973

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=58641

As far as Italian is concerned, for those who can read Italian there is an interesting scholarly essay on dialects in Italy and Europe at 

http://www.bib.uab.es/pub/quadernsitalia/11359730n8p011.pdf

I found this passage very interesting:

"in uno stesso parlante frequentemente
coesistono quattro varietà linguistiche di cui ha competenza attiva​o passiva: il dialetto locale, il dialetto regionale, l’italiano regionale, l’italiano
comune. Si tratta di idealizzazioni, come dice Pellegrini stesso, notando come
solo i due estremi, l’italiano comune e più ancora il dialetto locale siano sistemi
in qualche modo stabili e uniformemente presenti nei parlanti, mentre le altre
due entità sono alquanto variabili. Tuttavia esistono, e spesso uno stesso parlante
passa dall’uno all’altro a seconda delle circostanze"

Basically what it means is that the usual "dialect vs standard language" distinction conceals a much more complex reality. In some areas, like Veneto(which is discussed in detail in the essay), speakers will use the "dialetto locale" in their village or town, the "dialetto regionale" when speaking to people from other areas in their region, an "italiano regionale" which is more or less heavily influenced by their dialect(especially in vocabulary and pronunciation) and the standard "italiano comune".

Of course not every speaker will be fluent in all four varieties. In my town (Salerno) I know some people who can speak both the local variety of Neapolitan(Salernitano) and "proper" Neapolitan(as spoken in Naples). Because I'm not fluent in either Neapolitan or Salernitano I tend to speak "italiano regionale"(basically Italian sprinkled with a few local or dialect words) in my area and "italiano comune" to people from other regions. If you go to an isolated village in, say, Cilento, you may well meet some very old people who mainly only speak their local dialect and who would have problems communicating with people from other regions. 

As far as accents are concerned we have discussed this before. My opinion is that there is no "standard" accent in Italy and that you can always tell where someone is from. 

And concerning "posh" accents the situation is the reverse compared to England, where a middle-class Southerner will sound "posh" to a Northerner. In Italy standard Italian spoken with a "Northern" accent will sound posh to a Southerner. On the other hand Italian spoken with a strong Southern accent may well sound a bit "uncouth" to Northern ears.

I wonder whether fellow Italians at WR agree with this description.

Carlo


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## uinni

Hi!


			
				thrice said:
			
		

> How precise can one be when trying figure out where someone is from by their accent? (i.e. region, city).


In general one can certainly tell whether the speaker comes from N-W,N-E, Centre-North, Centre, Centre-South, South, Sicily, Sardinia from his/her accent.
Also, some regional accents are more known than onthers (mainly thanks to TV caricatures).
But figuring out some region and (most of all) city accent requires the judging subject to be living in a nearby region (for the regional accent) or in the region of the city s/he is trying to figure out the accent of.
Of course, personal experience (friends, acquaintances) may alter this general frame.



			
				thrice said:
			
		

> Is there a generic rural accent (what one would probably call in America a "hick" accent)?


I guess the only distinction one can do is among geographic regional provenance -although a few cases of rural/town accent difference can be found in some geographic regions.



			
				thrice said:
			
		

> For that matter, is there a generic "posh" accent? (as the most proper BE accents sound to us Americans)


Not in general I guess. But inside a region one can find a "posh" accent, so that an Italian coming from a region may not judge posh an accent of another Italian coming from another region, inside which that accent is considered to be posh 



			
				thrice said:
			
		

> In the English language, many people find foreign accents sexy or attractive (especially any coming from the romance languages). Is that true in Italian as well? If so, which?


I guess it is a question of personal taste. But as far as I know no accent is considered to be sexy/attractive.



			
				thrice said:
			
		

> In English, if one hears a non-native speaker, it's generally easy to figure out which language is their native language. I'm guessing this is a pretty universal phenomenon..... ?


Yes, of course!



			
				thrice said:
			
		

> Are you (as Italians) able to differentiate between the different accents in English? (Perhaps the ones that aren't able to are the same ones that wouldn't even bother struggling to get this far down in this post, however)


This depends entirely on the personal experience, of course!

Bear in mind that Italian is an "artificial" language, which was imposed to unify culturally very different peoples, with languages of their own (and very different one from each other). Moreover this unification started only recently. 

Uinni


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## radiation woman

Is a French accent not rather appealing in Italian (although of course this is a question of taste too)?


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## uinni

radiation woman said:
			
		

> Is a French accent not rather appealing in Italian (although of course this is a question of taste too)?


In "A fish called wanda", to rouse Wanda, Archie speaks Russian. In the Italian version, he speeks Spanish...  

But I guess that French is generally considered more or less sexy among Italians...

Uinni


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## radiation woman

uinni said:
			
		

> In "A fish called wanda", to rouse Wanda, Archie speaks Russian. In the Italian version, he speeks Spanish...
> 
> Uinni


 
Also in Friends at one point Rachel has an Italian boyfriend (Paolo) and in the Italian version he was Spanish (don't remember what name they gave him).  Could it be that Spanish is considered to be the no. 1 sexy accent in Italy?


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## You little ripper!

uinni said:
			
		

> In "A fish called wanda", to rouse Wanda, Archie speaks Russian. In the Italian version, he speaks Spanish...
> 
> But I guess that French is generally considered more or less sexy among Italians...
> 
> Uinni


Small typo, Uinni.


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## uinni

radiation woman said:
			
		

> Also in Friends at one point Rachel has an Italian boyfriend (Paolo) and in the Italian version he was Spanish (don't remember what name they gave him). Could it be that Spanish is considered to be the no. 1 sexy accent in Italy?


Well, in Italy Spanish people are thought to be hot, while French people romantic.
Maybe abroad Italians play the role Spanish people have in Italy 

Uinni


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## Don Zauker

thrice said:
			
		

> How precise can one be when trying figure out where someone is from by their accent? (i.e. region, city).


In my opinion, it is fairly simple to tell the region while very difficult (unless you are corregional with the person speaking) to figure out the city.



			
				thrice said:
			
		

> Is there a generic rural accent (what one would probably call in America a "hick" accent)?


 I'm positive any region has its hick accent.



			
				thrice said:
			
		

> For that matter, is there a generic "posh" accent? (as the most proper BE accents sound to us Americans)


I don't think so. I believe that proper Italian can't be defined posh, while the use of some out of date or rarely used terms may be ("aborro" anyone?)



			
				thrice said:
			
		

> In the English language, many people find foreign accents sexy or attractive (especially any coming from the romance languages). Is that true in Italian as well? If so, which?


My opinion is that in Italy we see foreign cultures as more uninhibited than our so a foreign accent has often a sexy connotation.



			
				thrice said:
			
		

> In English, if one hears a non-native speaker, it's generally easy to figure out which language is their native language. I'm guessing this is a pretty universal phenomenon..... ?


Yes, it is often very easy.



			
				thrice said:
			
		

> Are you (as Italians) able to differentiate between the different accents in English? (Perhaps the ones that aren't able to are the same ones that wouldn't even bother struggling to get this far down in this post, however)


A common joke is that if you want to speak BE you have to suck a lemon before talking, on the other hand, if you want to speak AE you have to chew a gum during the talking. 
Please, dont be offended, just kidding. 



			
				thrice said:
			
		

> Are there accents that are so thick it's hard for an Italian to understand?


The problem is that our dialects comes from different languages (latin spanish, french, german, arab) so many dialect coming from a different language base colud be very hard to understand.
All in all, any region (yes even Tuscany) has one or more unintelligible dialect.


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## Don Zauker

radiation woman said:
			
		

> Also in Friends at one point Rachel has an Italian boyfriend (Paolo) and in the Italian version he was Spanish (don't remember what name they gave him). Could it be that Spanish is considered to be the no. 1 sexy accent in Italy?


In Rat Race Rowan Atkinson play the role of an Italian while in the italian version it is an English...


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## AlxGrim

> How precise can one be when trying figure out where someone is from by their accent? (i.e. region, city).


In most cases, it's very easy. Accents from Napoli, Roma, Sicilia, Calabria, Sardegna, Veneto are easily recognizable. Toscana's pronunciation of letter "c" is famous nationwide, as well. In some other cases there are many hints, but you can't be sure 100%. 



> For that matter, is there a generic "posh" accent? (as the most proper BE accents sound to us Americans)


As Moodywop said, usually a Northern accent (namely, Milanese... ) is perceived as begin rather posh. I think it comes from a diffused stereotype, according to which the typical Milanese is a small company rich self-made owner, always talking about work and money.



> In the English language, many people find foreign accents sexy or attractive (especially any coming from the romance languages). Is that true in Italian as well? If so, which?


Personally, I like English - for its rationality more than its sound, anyway - but Italians love Spanish and French most.



> In English, if one hears a non-native speaker, it's generally easy to figure out which language is their native language. I'm guessing this is a pretty universal phenomenon..... ?


I guess so. English mothertongues are easy to spot, specially for their tendence to close with an "ay" sound every word ending in "-e" (e.g.: "fiume" becomes "fiumay"), and their structural inability to pronounce a correct "r"  Germans can't pronounce the "v" sound (they transform it in "f") and the "u" (which becomes "v"). So "quando" becomes "qvando" and "vetro" becomes "fetro"). _Benedetto XVI docet_...  And so on.



> Are you (as Italians) able to differentiate between the different accents in English?


Personally, I can easily tell an English from an American. Sometimes I'm able to tell a North American from a Southern American, but that's all.


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## Red Frog

AlxGrim said:
			
		

> Toscana's pronunciation of letter "c" is famous nationwide, as well.


 

I'm curious - how is the letter 'c' pronounced in Tuscany? I'm not well-versed in Italian accents yet...sorry...


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## sweet_cate

Red Frog said:
			
		

> I'm curious - how is the letter 'c' pronounced in Tuscany? I'm not well-versed in Italian accents yet...sorry...


 
hmm..

very difficult here..  

Anyway..  

i.e.  

for " casa"  they say.. "( )asa..".. for "cane" thy say.. "(  )ane"..

the letter "c" (that we pronounce as "k" ..) is only a breath.. or a sigh..

as when you blow out air  from the mouth.. 

is it comprehensible?  

No eh?


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## Raphillon

Red Frog said:
			
		

> I'm curious - how is the letter 'c' pronounced in Tuscany? I'm not well-versed in Italian accents yet...sorry...


 
With an huge aspiration so you can not even hear it

So

"La casa" sounds "La hasa" and so on. There is a very known joke about a boy from florence entering a bar and asking for

"Una coca cola calda calda con la cannuccia" (una hoha hola halda halda hon la hannuhhia)


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## uinni

Raphillon said:
			
		

> "Una coca cola calda calda con la cannuccia" (una hoha hola halda halda hon la hannu*scsc*ia)


 
Only hard c's are !  

Uinni


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## Raphillon

sorry, you are right!


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## Don Zauker

The ablation of 'c' in casa, cane and so on is a very difficult matter. 

A Tuscan would never say "vado a 'asa" or "vado in 'asa" because it is a very cacophonic sentence. 

However you may say "la mi' 'asa" (my house) or "il mi' 'ane" (my dog). You may even say "la 'asa" but never "il 'ane". 

Also, the sound is difficult to replicate almost as learning the french 'r' pronunciation. 

All in all, is a pretty difficult thing, I fear. 

If you'd like many examples (although in Leghourn dialect or vernacolo) you may try to put your hands on some copies of "Il Vernacoliere".


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## Red Frog

Hey, that's fascinating, I had no idea about the Tuscan 'c'! Thank you all for the explanations.

At the risk of going slightly off the main subject of the thread, it sounds like the same thing that happens with a lot of the Andalusian (southern Spain) accents when they pronounce the 'j'. In Spanish (in Spain at least - not too sure about South America) the 'j ' is normally a harsh sound, rather like the 'ch' in the English (Scottish?) word 'loch', as if you're clearing your throat out! But with an 'andaluz' accent it becomes more of an aspirated 'h' sound.

So 'jamás como jamón' (I never eat ham...) would be pronounced more or less as 'hamás como hamón'  (Though the 's' in 'hamás' would most likely disappear too...!)

Sounds like the Tuscans and Andalusians have a fair bit in common when it comes to eating up letters!


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## Marcone

Having grown up in Pistoia, I remember this well.  The hard "c" is dropped, but never between the same vowels.
EX: C'e un bu'o nel muro della casa.Non l'ho fatto mi'a io.
Soft "c" gets a "sh" sound, but not at the beginning of a sentence or after a consonant. EX: C'era una volta una statua di shera (cera).
At least that's how I remember it.

Marco


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## Rottweilerdriver

First I must say I have only the deepest respect for ANYONE, who is conversing in a language other than their 'mother/naitive' tongue. It is never easy and I find anyone who even attempts to learn english as deserving of respect as it can be a difficult language to master (Perhaps only Russian being harder)! I have always judged anyone by their own individual merits, so I have no qualms about anyone speaking to me in my mother tongue, in fact I find them deserving of great respect.
I would assume that any language from any country would have it's own regional dialects, "accents" and eccentricities.
I think we as humans naturally find any language or 'accent' we don't hear on a daily basis as exotic and perhaps attractive. (Obviously I am biased to the dulcet and complex tones of Italian, I find it a language that can convey many different emotions depending on the context) I guess the same could be said for any "romance" type language (Spanish, Italian, French)
  As to the person who asked about what a "hick" accent was, it is generally considered a rustic, southern US dialect, with a distinct tone,  cadence and slang. However to be honest, one can say that about a "New York City" accent or western accent or California accent. I know I am usually able to tell exactly what region of the country a native AE speaker is from by listening to them. The US also has a "standard-formal" accent (used often by newscasters or TV personnel which is closest to a midwestern accent). I would assume that any country would have the same type of thing (like the various regions in Italia: Milan compared to Naples compared to Sicilian for example).
Warmly,
Jackie E.


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## cleris

radiation woman said:
			
		

> Also in Friends at one point Rachel has an Italian boyfriend (Paolo) and in the Italian version he was Spanish (don't remember what name they gave him). Could it be that Spanish is considered to be the no. 1 sexy accent in Italy?


No.  Not in this case (or others similar).
In the italian version all the actors speak italian (the dubbing) and so the italian boyfriend  cannot be Italian, otherwise would not appear foreign.


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## thrice

Great! Thanks for all the replies!



			
				Don Zauker said:
			
		

> A common joke is that if you want to speak BE you have to suck a lemon before talking, on the other hand, if you want to speak AE you have to chew a gum during the talking.


I love it!  I once asked a woman who spoke soley Italian what she heard when she heard English being spoken, and she made a mumbling noise and made a motion with her mouth that looked as if she was trying to chew a mouthful of molasses. I thought that was pretty appropriate, because before I knew any Italian (and even still, if they're speaking too quickly for me to keep up), all I would hear when an Italian spoke is one very long word with a bombardment of quick and (usually) well articulated syllables, the same as when I hear Spanish.



			
				AlxGrim said:
			
		

> I guess so. English mothertongues are easy to spot, specially for their tendence tendency to close with an "ay" sound every word ending in "-e" (e.g.: "fiume" becomes "fiumay"), and their structural inability to pronounce a correct "r" Germans can't pronounce the "v" sound (they transform it in "f") and the "u" (which becomes "v"). So "quando" becomes "qvando" and "vetro" becomes "fetro"). Benedetto XVI docet... And so on.


 
Those damn "r"'s are definitely a pain =). I find them to be most hard to pronounce when close to an "L", like in "plurale" or, even worse (for me), "irregolare". It's hard to pinpoint what characterizes Italian accents in English, but they definitely do have a tendency to put a vowel (usually an "a") at the end of words that don't end with a vowel. 



			
				AlxGrim said:
			
		

> Personally, I like English - for its rationality more than its sound, anyway - but Italians love Spanish and French most.


What do you mean by "its rationality"? What rationality?  Every time I got in a tough spot while learning Italian (especially that %$#@&%@ subjunctive), I thanked God that I wasn't having to learn English. The only good thing I can say about English is that its massive vocabulary affords a speaker a huge amount of precision, since there are normally many words that mean the same thing, but with subtle differences. However, this is another reason why I'm happy I don't have to learn English . Here's a funny link about the English language http://littlecalamity.tripod.com/Text/HateEnglish.html . 



			
				Rottweilerdriver said:
			
		

> As to the person who asked about what a "hick" accent was, it is generally considered a rustic, southern US dialect, with a distinct tone, cadence and slang. However to be honest, one can say that about a "New York City" accent or western accent or California accent.
> Jackie E.


 
The word "hick" has a very specific connotation, though. I'll take the definition that dictionary.com gives me 

adj : awkwardly simple and provincial; "bumpkinly country boys"; "rustic farmers"; "a hick town"; "the nightlife of Montmartre awed the unsophisticated tourists" [syn: bumpkinly, rustic, unsophisticated] n : not very intelligent or interested in culture 

A hick accent would be the typical accent spoken by someone with these characteristics (with more of an emphasis on them being from rural areas and less on them being unintelligent. However,the uneducated aspect is part of the stereotype).  So there aren't really any accents in Italian that would match this? 

Again, thanks for the great replies. Very interesting stuff. I was hoping to spark up a convo like this. Keep em comin!


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## AlxGrim

Thrice, English is more rational than Italian - and any other language I know, actually. Maybe Farsi is even more rational - so rational to be too simple and not enough "expressive".
A "stupid" example: there are no accented words (which demonstrates how accents are not necessary...).
It has a simple way to decline verbs: only three forms - present, past, past participle, and from those all the other forms derive. And for most of them, you just add -ed to the first, to form the second and the third. 
A sentence has a fixed (more or less!) structure - subject, verb, and all the rest.
And so on... there are many things that make English a rational language, in the sense that you get much with a minimum effort. Of course, and I hope no one will get offended, the price to pay is a reduced "expressivity". Italian is more "flexible".


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## Willi

> Those damn "r"'s are definitely a pain =).


 
Hi thrice, if you want to improve your 'R' there's a tongue-twister (is it correct?) you can say:
orrore orrore un ramarro marrone  
Ciao


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## radiation woman

cleris said:
			
		

> No.  Not in this case (or others similar).
> In the italian version all the actors speak italian (the dubbing) and so the italian boyfriend cannot be Italian, otherwise would not appear foreign.


 
I realise that, but in the original American version they decided to make the character Italian because that seems more sexy to us anglo-saxons, so I imagine that the Italian dubbers decided that for Italians a Spanish character would perform the same function.


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## TimLA

Ciao ragazzi,

When I'm in Italy, and I hear native Italian with "different" accents than I'm used to, I'll always ask my native friends where that person comes from.
Often they say "Milano" "Sicilia" "Sardegna" or "il sud" (no particular region) - and their response is so rapid that it is obvious to them - like we might be able to identify someone from "the South" "da Bronx" "Minnesoota" or "Baston".

I'd like to raise this excellent thread from the dead and ask some detailed questions about regional accents.
I'm wondering if it would be possible to ask for specific examples of two or three *common, obvious* accented words that would allow me/us to identify where a person comes from in Italy?
I'm not talking about "dialectical" Italian but rather the sounds/accents of common Italian "everyday" words.
Here's a little list to start, but please modify it, if you think I've missed something "obvious".

Lombardia (Milano) - ?
Veneto (Venice) - ?
Toscana (Firenze) - Sheeow ?
Roma - ar (al) ?
Napoli - ?
Sardegna - ?
Sicilia - ?
"Sud" - ?

Grathias
(That's how they say Grazie! in Madrid )


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## fox71

Di solito "pure" (=anche) lo dicono al sud, "pure io", "pure tu", in toscana invece non si usa mai, credo nemmeno al nord, ma non ne sono sicurissimo!


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## federicoft

TimLA said:


> Lombardia (Milano) - ?
> Veneto (Venice) - ?
> Toscana (Firenze) - Sheeow ?
> Roma - ar (al) ?
> Napoli - ?
> Sardegna - ?
> Sicilia - ?
> "Sud" - ?
> 
> Grathias
> (That's how they say Grazie! in Madrid )



This is a huge subject. Every region has its peculiarity, and maybe there are as many opinions as there are people. Anyway these are the first things that come into my mind...

"Non tutti i gusti sono alla_ menta_".
This is a joke to make fun about the supposed unpretentious and shy character of Piedmontese people, and most of all the way the pronunce the _e_'s (very openly indeed). So when you hear strangely lengthened e's, it's likely you are speaking with someone from Turin. 

In Tuscany you have the typical gorgia. 

People from Naples pronounce u+vocal diphthong as they were two distinct sounds (that is a hiatus). When an Italian says _fuori _or _uovo_ you can immediately find out if he's from Naples or from the rest of the country.


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## virgilio

thrice,
        From my relatively meagre acquaintance with Italian accents, I have learned - or at least I think I have learned - that if the speakers "t" sounds like a "d" and "p" sounds like a "b" and "k" sounds like a "g" -technically called the vocalization of unvoiced consonants - the speaker was probably born and/or raised in the southern half of the country and, if  consonants between words sound as if they were doubled or tripled (e.g. instead of "va bene" - "vabbbene") and if a final vowel tends to get lost (when "arrivederci" sounds like "arrivederc") the speaker probably originated from the deep south, maybe Calabria or thereabouts.
But that's just my guess from what I hear. Mi sbaglio?
Virgilio


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## Cloudy-aw

Doubled consonants ("Va bene" pronounced "vvabbbEne", in this case also with on open E like in the English pEn) are more typical of Rome and nearby areas


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## gabrigabri

virgilio said:


> thrice,
> From my relatively meagre acquaintance with Italian accents, I have learned - or at least I think I have learned - that if the speakers "t" sounds like a "d" and "p" sounds like a "b" and "k" sounds like a "g" -technically called the vocalization of unvoiced consonants - the speaker was probably born and/or raised in the southern half of the country  or centre (e.g. Rome ho mangiaDo)and, if consonants between words sound as if they were doubled or tripled (e.g. instead of "va bene" - "vabbbene") and if a final vowel tends to get lost (when "arrivederci" sounds like "arrivederc") the speaker probably originated from the deep south, maybe Calabria or thereabouts Va bbene is correct in Italian (look here http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=243602&highlight=raddoppiamento but maybe they are "extreme". They also tend to say "non=nonne, con=conne, bic=bicchi"2, etc (CalabBBria   and Sicily).
> But that's just my guess from what I hear. Mi sbaglio?
> Virgilio


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## virgilio

Cloudy-aw and gabrigabri,
                                   Grazie tante.
Virgilio


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## awanzi

Hi everybody!

In the last 4 or 5 years I've been looking for an "Italian accent rule" so to explain the differences of prununciation of my "connazionali".


I have found some, generic, theories:

Distant geographical regions (Nord/Sud):

- the biggest differences  are in the vowels "E-O" -as for ex in pèsca and pésca (the fruit).
Normally what in the North sounds open, in the South sounds closed. 

- the "I-A-U" are more or less the same.

Local differences (regional):

-what plays the difference are the consonants, specially the P-B/D-T/G-Q/G-C/V-F, which are mixed up.


For Italians is possible to recognize accents also thanks to those small words, "intercalare", which differ from city to city. "Punto", "Pure", "Miiii", "Uè", "Cioè", "Belin", "Aò", "De che" are just examples.

Personally I have difficulties recognizing people from Torino. Sometimes I think they speak a strange southern accent!!


----------



## gabrigabri

awanzi said:


> Hi everybody!
> 
> In the last 4 or 5 years I've been looking for an "Italian accent rule" so to explain the differences of prununciation of my "connazionali".
> 
> 
> I have found some, generic, theories:
> 
> Distant geographical regions (Nord/Sud):
> 
> - the biggest differences are in the vowels "E-O" -as for ex in pèsca and pésca (the fruit).
> Normally what in the North sounds open, in the South sounds closed.
> 
> - the "I-A-U" are more or less the same.
> 
> Local differences (regional):
> 
> -what plays the difference are the consonants, specially the P-B/D-T/G-Q/G-C/V-F, which are mixed up.
> 
> 
> For Italians is possible to recognize accents also thanks to those small words, "intercalare", which differ from city to city. "Punto", "Pure", "Miiii", "Uè", "Cioè", "Belin", "Aò", "De che", "nè" (Torino!) are just examples.
> 
> Personally I have difficulties recognizing people from Torino. Sometimes I think they speak a strange southern accent!!


 

For Torino you can listen to Luciana Littizzetto (in youtube, in sarremo!). Or you can look there for "telenovela piemontese"...
You are right, in Turin many people have "wrong" accents: for example from Calabria or Sicily (it depends on their parents!). Many of them have both parents not from Turin and the spend their summers (at least when they're young) in another region. So they have another accent even if they grow up in Turin.


----------



## awanzi

gabrigabri said:


> For Torino you can listen to Luciana Littizzetto (in youtube, in sarremo!). Or you can look there for "telenovela piemontese"...
> You are right, in Turin many people have "wrong" accents: for example from Calabria or Sicily (it depends on their parents!). Many of them have both parents not from Turin and the spend their summers (at least when they're young) in another region. So they have another accent even if they grow up in Turin.



Aaah! Ecco svelato l'arcano! Very very true!


----------



## federicoft

awanzi said:


> Personally I have difficulties recognizing people from Torino. Sometimes I think they speak a strange southern accent!!



That's because Turin is the biggest city inhabitated by Southern Italians after Naples and Palermo. 



awanzi said:


> For Italians is possible to recognize accents also thanks to those small words, "intercalare", which differ from city to city. "Punto", "Pure", "Miiii", "Uè", "Cioè", "Belin", "Aò", "De che" are just examples.



That's the easiest way to recognize where are you from in my opinion. 
Turin - "neh", "ciusca"
Milan "bestia", "ciula"
Genoa "belin"
Bologna - "sorbole"
Rome - "aò" 
Naples - "uè"
Bari - "moo"
Sicily - "mii"

Another easy way is how do you pronounce the third person of the verb essere. Usually in Nort-western Italy it becomes l'è, xe in Veneto and iè in some Southern Italian accents.


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## awanzi

I use a lot of "Aò"!!!!


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## gabrigabri

federicoft said:


> That's because Turin is the biggest city inhabitated by Southern Italians after Naples and Palermo.
> 
> 
> 
> That's the easiest way to recognize where are you from in my opinion.
> Turin - "neh", "ciusca " I don't know it! And I don't say "neh"  (actually only elder women say it!!)
> Milan "bestia", "ciula"
> Genoa "belin"
> Bologna - "sorbole"
> Rome - "aò"
> Naples - "uè"
> Bari - "moo"
> Sicily - "mii"
> 
> Another easy way is how do you pronounce the third person of the verb essere. Usually in Nort-western Italy it becomes l'è, xe in Veneto and iè in some Southern Italian accents.


----------



## TimLA

I'd like to re-resurrect this thread for 2 reasons:

*First*, GabriGabri has put together a fantastic series of accent examples from YouTube.
For copyright reasons they can't be posted on WR, but we can PM them.
So if anyone wants a series of interesting Italian accents, just PM me and I'll forward them to you.

*Second*, I was recently in Friuli and heard what may be a local accent.
I heard a man (~55 years old), a woman (~40 years old), and a teenager all say "7" (sette) like "zzzette".
These people were all in different parts of Friuli.
Is there any chance that this "accent" is local to the Northeast?

Grazie


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## uinni

Ciao.


TimLA said:


> *Second*, I was recently in Friuli and heard what may be a local accent.
> I heard a man (~55 years old), a woman (~40 years old), and a teenager all say "7" (sette) like "zzzette".
> These people were all in different parts of Friuli.
> Is there any chance that this "accent" is local to the Northeast?


 
What you report is quite strange! (unless I didn't get what sound you intended to represent by "zzz").
In fact the accent of Friulans is determined by the characteristic of their own (whether still spoken or not as a mothertongue) language (Friulan), in which the word "siet" (seven) is pronounced exactly as in Italian/English sette/seven.
There are some regions of Friuli where the "s" tends to be pronounced slightly as a "sh" (e.g. as in "shoot"), though.
There is another "mispronounciation" of "s", which is pronounced as a "voiced sibilant s" in words where "s" follows an "n" (e.g. tensione, in Italian this "s" is unvoiced) but it is a characteristic of Triestino, which is a dialect derived from Venetian (that replaced the Friulan two centuries ago in that far East town of FVG).

Uinni


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## TimLA

uinni said:


> What you report is quite strange! (unless I didn't get what sound you intended to represent by "zzz").
> In fact the accent of Friulans is determined by the characteristic of their own (whether still spoken or not as a mothertongue) language (Friulan), in which the word "siet" (seven) is pronounced exactly as in Italian/English sette/seven.
> There are some regions of Friuli where the "s" tends to be pronounced slightly as a "sh" (e.g. as in "shoot"), though.
> There is another "mispronounciation" of "s", which is pronounced as a "voiced sibilant s" in words where "s" follows an "n" (e.g. tensione, in Italian this "s" is unvoiced) but it is a characteristic of Triestino, which is a dialect derived from Venetian (that replaced the Friulan two centuries ago in that far East town of FVG).
> Uinni


 
Excellent, thank you.
Then it was probably a "random" - it was so clear to me, just like we would say "zzzzebra" in AE (they even held the "z" sound longer than I expected). The only other accents I immediately recognize are the "shiao" of Florence and the "ar" of Rome, so I thought this might be another easy one...guess not.
Thanks again.


----------



## uinni

TimLA said:


> Then it was probably a "random" - it was so clear to me, just like we would say "zzzzebra" in AE (they even held the "z" sound longer than I expected). The only other accents I immediately recognize are the "shiao" of Florence and the "ar" of Rome, so I thought this might be another easy one...guess not.


 
Friulans are not so easy to recognize (North Friulans=Carnic people instead have a strange palatal "d", which I found only in Indians -I apologize with Indian people, I do not know exactly which of their languages).
They are rather recognizable for their prosody.

Well, I guess you met three(!!) German people!!!!  

Uinni


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## awanzi

Mia nonna ha un accento stranissimo che io non sono mai riuscita ad identificare!
Lei è del nord e una parola è la sua caratteristica: pronincia "magari"  con una sorta di acca al posto della g (ma_h_ari).


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## uinni

awanzi said:


> Mia nonna ha un accento stranissimo che io non sono mai riuscita ad identificare!
> Lei è del nord e una parola è la sua caratteristica: pronincia "magari" con una sorta di acca al posto della g (ma_h_ari).


 
Proprio del Nord? O forse toscana? Oltre alle "c" han anche le "g" un po' aspirate...

Uinni


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## awanzi

No, sono sicura che non è toscano, perchè quello lo conosco bene!
Poi lei non aspira tutte le _g_ o le _c, _ma solo quella di cui sopra...


----------



## Scopa Nuova

Thanks *TimLA *for re-resurrecting this thread. It brings up a question in my mind concerning Italian accents.

A large percentage of operas have librettos in Italian. To my ear, when I listen to opera singers It sounds as if they are striving for a "neutral" Italian accent (whatever that is ). Is there someone in the Forum familiar enough with opera to comment on this? Is there some international standard the music schools use when teaching students "opera Italian". Perhaps it's like our AE Radio and TV announcers who all have a "neutral" mid western AE like accent. 

Even though the opera singers have this more or less common accent, I am able to hear enough of a variation to tell if the performer is a native Italian, German, Englishman, or American.

Grazie in anttesa

Scopa Nuova


----------



## federicoft

Scopa Nuova said:


> Thanks *TimLA *for re-resurrecting this thread. It brings up a question in my mind concerning Italian accents.
> 
> A large percentage of operas have librettos in Italian. To my ear, when I listen to opera singers It sounds as if they are striving for a "neutral" Italian accent (whatever that is ). Is there someone in the Forum familiar enough with opera to comment on this? Is there some international standard the music schools use when teaching students "opera Italian". Perhaps it's like our AE Radio and TV announcers who all have a "neutral" mid western AE like accent.
> 
> Even though the opera singers have this more or less common accent, I am able to hear enough of a variation to tell if the performer is a native Italian, German, Englishman, or American.
> 
> Grazie in anttesa
> 
> Scopa Nuova



I'm not really a big fan of opera, but I can say they are performed with the best Standard Italian accent possibile, which is very hard indeed to hear among common people (something maybe not too far from the English RP concept). What I know for sure is that opera singers (even those native of Italian) are supposed to attend strict pronunciation courses.


----------



## Scopa Nuova

federicoft said:


> I'm not really a big fan of opera, but I can say they are performed with the best Standard Italian accent possibile, which is very hard indeed to hear among common people (something maybe not too far from the English RP concept). What I know for sure is that opera singers (even those native of Italian) are supposed to attend strict pronunciation courses.


 

Thanks federicoft

I suspected that. I was just wondering if there is an international network or organization that sets the standard and if there is a particular native Italian accent, like northern Italy that they use. 

Grazie

Scopa Nuova


----------



## malva7

To my knowledge the Lucchese should be the purest Italian accent as long as they don't speak dialect.
To give you an idea, when a Lucchese speaks in dialect you tend to consider it normal Italian with some grammar mistakes (due to their nature of being money tight and thus willing to save on anything they can - even on word endings)
I'm quite sure that in Lucca there's a special school for those who (specially foreigners) want to perfection their pronounce.
Said that, the Milanese accent (when not too heavy) has now become a sort of Italian standard for good pronounciation.

For a posh accent I would tend to consider that of Turin with all its aristocratic background.

Please consider the above as a personal consideration rather than a mathematical rule.

Anyway I personally consider the Emialiano-Romagnolo the most pleasing Italian accent; it puts me in a good mood any time I hear it.


----------



## gabrigabri

Scopa Nuova said:


> Thanks *TimLA *for re-resurrecting this thread. It brings up a question in my mind concerning Italian accents.
> 
> A large percentage of operas have librettos in Italian. To my ear, when I listen to opera singers It sounds as if they are striving for a "neutral" Italian accent (whatever that is ). Is there someone in the Forum familiar enough with opera to comment on this? Is there some international standard the music schools use when teaching students "opera Italian". Perhaps it's like our AE Radio and TV announcers who all have a "neutral" mid western AE like accent.
> 
> Even though the opera singers have this more or less common accent, I am able to hear enough of a variation to tell if the performer is a native Italian, German, Englishman, or American.
> 
> Grazie in anttesa
> 
> Scopa Nuova




Whab about the "scuole di dizione"? They are everywhere, and you can learn how to speak without any accent. Actors, people who work in TV and in radio used to speak very "neutral".

Abotu the opera: I can't understand a lot, but I think that singers (not from Italy!) try to hide their original accent, that is the most important think, not to be "neutral".

ciao


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## virgilio

malva7,
          If you will permit a couple of minor corrections to your otherwise impeccable English:
(1) foreigners (who) want to perfect their pronunciation. (you will, of course, be aware that the verb "to perfect" carries vocal stress on the "fect" syllable, whereas the adjective "perfect" stresses the "per" syllable)
(2) "That said" is the usual English 'absolute' participial phrase.

Re:" For a posh accent I would tend to consider that of Turin with all its aristocratic background."
And how could it be otherwise, when it can claim as its founder Cesare Augusto himself - 'mecenate', in a manner speaking, of the poeta mantovano, whose name escapes me.
That city is said to have been originally called "Augusta Taurinorum" - Caesar's City of the Bull People.

Best wishes
Virgilio


----------



## federicoft

malva7 said:


> Said that, the Milanese accent (when not too heavy) has now become a sort of Italian standard for good pronounciation.



The Milanese? 
Usually it has a lot of pronunciation peculiarities, especially when it comes to the openness/closeness of the vowels (a common phenomenon in all Northern Italy). It's very hard for me to think of the Milanese as a standard for good pronounciation.

To answer Scopa Nuova, since modern Italian is largely derived from Tuscan, Tuscan accent is still regarded as one of the best accents, as long as its speakers manage to avoid some pronounciation defects (especially the stereotypical _Tuscan gorgia_). 
Apart from this, scholars set the standard for pronounce on the grounds of the pronounce found in the five so-called "regioni standardizzanti" (Tuscany, Umbria, Marches, Northern Lazio and Rome). Upper and middle classes speakers of these regions of Upper Central Italy are generally considered as the speaker of the closest Italian possibile to the  ideal standard Italian.
There's also a saying which regard the best spoken Italian as _lingua toscana in bocca romana_ (something like: Tuscan dialect spoken with Roman accent).


----------



## gabrigabri

federicoft said:


> There's also a saying which regard the best spoken Italian as _lingua toscana in bocca romana_ (something like: Tuscan dialect spoken with Roman accent).




Rischiamo di finire in un vicolo cieco...
C'è già una discussione a riguardo molto simile: "italiano perfetto"...


----------



## audia

Gabri, your thread was very interesting! As a non-native I would like to ask the question: 
When you hear people anouncing the news (ex. TG1) which reagion/accent sounds the closest to them? In AE we use them as our standard English, generally.
Another  related question: 
Was Dante's Italian chosen/developed into the standard Italian based on his writings or also on his spoken tuscan accent?


----------



## federicoft

audia said:


> When you hear people anouncing the news (ex. TG1) which reagion/accent sounds the closest to them? In AE we use them as our standard English, generally.



It depends on which region the speaker came from.  
Until, say, the 70s or the 80s pronunciation control on Rai Television was quite strict, and one had to speak a perfect Standard Italian if he would ever image to work on TV.
Nowadays regional accents are quite more tolerated, they are seen as a distinctiveness rather than a defect, and it's possibile to hear speakers from all regions. 
As regard Dante, I will leave the answer to a more qualified forero.


----------



## gabrigabri

audia said:


> When you hear people anouncing the news (ex. TG1) which reagion/accent sounds the closest to them?



The "challenge" is not to give the possibility to understand where you come from. 
If you've learnt "dizione" you won't have any regional accent.


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## virgilio

federicroft,
               With your permission just a minor correction: Instead of "one had to speak a perfect Standard Italian if he would ever image to work on TV."
The English verb "to image" - rarely used in my experience except in technical language - is not used in the way which I think you intend.
Perhaps "to aspire
"one had to speak a perfect Standard Italian if he would ever aspire to working on TV.
(or possibly)
"one had to speak a perfect Standard Italian if he would ever imagine working on TV.

Best wishes
Virgilio


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## Scopa Nuova

Grazie a tutti.

I woke up this morning to find all this excellent information concerning Italian accents as applied to opera. Thanks gabrigabri for identifying the "scuole di dizione" as the organization that teaches the "regionless" pronunciation of Italian. 

Opera was a prime source of entertainment in the 1700s to early 1900s in northern Italy, Austria, and other surrounding countries. Could it be possible that it played a major role in creating standard Italian?

It's a surprise for me to hear, gabri, that a native Italian has a difficult time understanding opera. As long as a soloist is singing the Italian seems to come through quite clear to me, a native American. When a chorus sings it much more difficult. On the other hand I can hardly understand an American singing hard rock! But that's a language in itself.

As far as trying to conceal their native accent, I think the Germans have a difficult time because German is a language of harsh sounds while Italian is a language of mellow sounds rich in vowels, which are musical.

Ciao

Scopa Nuova


----------



## federicoft

virgilio said:


> federicroft,
> With your permission just a minor correction: Instead of "one had to speak a perfect Standard Italian if he would ever image to work on TV."
> The English verb "to image" - rarely used in my experience except in technical language - is not used in the way which I think you intend.
> Perhaps "to aspire
> "one had to speak a perfect Standard Italian if he would ever aspire to working on TV.
> (or possibly)
> "one had to speak a perfect Standard Italian if he would ever imagine working on TV.
> 
> Best wishes
> Virgilio



Thank you so much, Virgilio! 
Actually my biggest concern in that sentence was on the sequence of tenses... so, i missed something else.


----------



## gabrigabri

Scopa Nuova said:


> Grazie a tutti.
> 
> I woke up this morning to find all this excellent information concerning Italian accents as applied to opera. Thanks gabrigabri for identifying the "scuole di dizione" as the organization that teaches the "regionless" pronunciation of Italian.
> 
> Opera was a prime source of entertainment in the 1700s to early 1900s in northern Italy, Austria, and other surrounding countries. Could it be possible that it played a major role in creating standard Italian? I don't think so. Actually we say that the "RAI" helped "creating" a standard Italian: people used to speak dialect, fast everybody! The TV tought them Italian! I can't find anything interesting about it...
> 
> It's a surprise for me to hear, gabri, that a native Italian has a difficult time understanding opera. As long as a soloist is singing the Italian seems to come through quite clear to me, a native American. When a chorus sings it much more difficult. On the other hand I can hardly understand an American singing hard rock! But that's a language in itself.
> I just tryed with Nabucco from youtube. (The quality is not good) In the first minute I couldn't distinguish a word!!
> 
> 
> Ciao
> 
> Scopa Nuova


----------



## virgilio

Scopa Nuova,
                  One solution to the problem, I have often thought, for people listening to operatic music without first studying - or even memorising - the libretto, would be to copy a simple expedient which used to be used in variety theatres, when the public was invited to join in singing with the artist on the stage.
There was a screen on which appeared the words of the song and as the music played an icon - often in the shape of a bouncing ball - indicated which word or even which syllable was currently being articulated.
  Modern electronic technology could, I'm sure, make such a device very effective and unobtrusive. I would be surprised, if opera did not consequently become more popular.
After all, look what happened to snooker.

Virgilio


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## Scopa Nuova

Ciao Gabri,

There is one reason why a younger Italian might have some difficulty in understanding opera. Some of the Italian is old-fashion. For example the use of "il voi". In other cases some words have actually changed or are no longer used.

Try listening to "Le Nozze di Figaro" or "Il Barbiere di Siviglia". These are comic operas and easy to follow, if the singers use the "no accent Italian.

Buona giornata,

Scopa Nuova


----------



## gabrigabri

Scopa Nuova said:


> Ciao Gabri,
> 
> There is one reason why a younger Italian might have some difficulty in understanding opera. Some of the Italian is old-fashion. For example the use of "il voi". In other cases some words have actually changed or are no longer used. I don't agree. I don't understand how they speak, but if I read it I understand (probably) everything. It depends on the way they sing: if they say:
> Signor
> Sihhhiiiiii ii gnóoooooouuooooaaaa rr
> It is really hard to understand!!
> 
> Try listening to "Le Nozze di Figaro" or "Il Barbiere di Siviglia". These are comic operas and easy to follow, if the singers use the "no accent Italian.
> 
> Buona giornata,
> 
> Scopa Nuova


 
You are right, the "nozze di Figaro" is easier to follow, though many words are still hard to understand.


----------



## audia

gabrigabri said:


> The "challenge" is not to give the possibility to understand where you come from.
> If you've learnt "dizione" you won't have any regional accent.


 
I will reword my question.
In AE .we say that the TV news accent is most similar to the midwestern accent.In Germany it is the area around Hannover. 
Is it not possible in Italian to say which accent/region sounds most like those who read the TV news?


----------



## Miss Piggott

audia said:


> I will reword my question.
> In AE .we say that the TV news accent is most similar to the midwestern accent.In Germany it is the area around Hannover.
> Is it not possible in Italian to say which accent/region sounds most like those who read the TV news?


 
I'm afraid no. Those who read the TV news don't have any accent. (Or they shouldn't have any.) 
If you can detect any accent, the speaker doesn't speak a Standard Italian.
Also, there are many words which most of us pronounce wrongly: if you want to know the right pronunciation, either you have to look it up on a dictionary, or you have to pay attention to the way they are pronounced  by the "doppiatori" (dubbers?)
Many Italians don't know they mispronounce words like "zucchero", "zio", "zattera", "stasera" etc...


----------



## awanzi

If the opera singer isn't Italian I have big problems understanding him!
Sometimes even if I allready know what he is singing! 
Specialmente con cantanti Asiatici...

I anyway suggest not to speak Italian in the opera way... it would be too funny to hear!


----------



## federicoft

Miss Piggott said:


> I'm afraid no. Those who read the TV news don't have any accent. (Or they shouldn't have any.)
> If you can detect any accent, the speaker doesn't speak a Standard Italian.
> Also, there are many words which most of us pronounce wrongly: if you want to know the right pronunciation, either you have to look it up on a dictionary, or you have to pay attention to the way they are pronounced  by the "doppiatori" (dubbers?)



I agree, but as said above regional accents are becoming quite common also on national TV (until the 80s it would have been inconceivable). Hearing a perfect standard Italian is rather uncommon, most speakers just speak the accent of the region they came from.


----------



## Miss Piggott

This can be true if you watch a regional Tv news (un TG regionale), and I agree that now it's more common to detect their regional accent in many journalists, but the ones who read the news still speak a Standard Italian.
I can't say where Maria Concetta Mattei, Maria Luisa Busi or Giorgino come from because they don't have any accent...


----------



## federicoft

Miss Piggott said:


> This can be true if you watch a regional Tv news (un TG regionale), and I agree that now it's more common to detect their regional accent in many journalists, but the ones who read the news still speak a Standard Italian.
> I can't say where Maria Concetta Mattei, Maria Luisa Busi or Giorgino come from because they don't have any accent...



Nothing to object about the other two, but Giorgino in my opinion speaks with a quite distinguishable southern accent.


----------



## TimLA

I think that we are still staying on-topic here, so I'd like to ask:

1. Is Carlo Conti's accent a "typical" accent or can you tell where he is from?
2. Same question for Bruno Vespa...
3. Do the announcers on "Qui Roma" and "Uno Mattina" have identifiable accents?

I only receive RAI International, so I have a limited access to all the typical programs I might see while in Italy.

We have an analogous situation in AE, with what has been termed "The Walter Cronkite accent" - you cannot identify where they are from.

Thanks


----------



## Miss Piggott

federicoft said:


> Nothing to object about the other two, but Giorgino in my opinion speaks with a quite distinguishable southern accent.


 
You're probably right about him, I don't watch the news very often so I'm afraid last time I heard him speaking was a looong time ago and I don't remember his accent very well...  

TimLa, Carlo Conti has a slight Tuscan accent, while Bruno Vespa... I wouldn't know. His is not a Standard Italian for me, but I have no idea where he comes from. I'd say Central-Southern Italy...
As for Qui Roma and Uno Mattina, I have never watched these programs and I don't even know who the announcers are, so I can't help you.


----------



## federicoft

Miss Piggott said:


> TimLa, Carlo Conti has a slight Tuscan accent, while Bruno Vespa... I wouldn't know. His is not a Standard Italian for me, but I have no idea where he comes from. I'd say Central-Southern Italy...



Yes, that's also my impression. Most noticeably he mispronounces the _z sorda _(for example he pronounces stan_z_a like a_z_alea rather than _z_appa). Typical of some central and upper southern dialects.



Miss Piggott said:


> As for Qui Roma and Uno Mattina, I have never watched these programs and I don't even know who the announcers are, so I can't help you.



Neither can I.


----------



## gabrigabri

TimLA said:


> I think that we are still staying on-topic here, so I'd like to ask:
> 
> 
> 3. Do the announcers on "Qui Roma" and "Uno Mattina" have identifiable accents?
> 
> Thanks



Oh my God, in "uno mattina" there's Luca Giurato... it's so funny (how he speaks!!!); he definitely doesn't speak a good Italian!! 

If you want to hear a standard Italian just watch an episode of "streghe" (charmed), or something similar! Dubbers speak wonderfully!!


----------



## audia

Where does Flavio??? (Affari Tuoi) come from?


----------



## gabrigabri

Flavio Insinna: Rome (he has a quite strong accent.).


----------



## TimLA

How about Sordi - is his accent from "Un Americano a Roma" classic Roman?

I laugh every time I see the scene where he rants about food...
Io non bevo vino rosso!!!..........


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## gabrigabri

Sordi aveva un LEGGERISSIMO accento!! 

How to say it in English?


----------



## Miss Piggott

gabrigabri said:
			
		

> If you want to hear a standard Italian just watch an episode of "streghe" (charmed), or something similar! Dubbers speak wonderfully!!



I agree... although watching an American series dubbed in Italian can be a bit strange for you, I find it the best way to learn a good - spoken - Italian. 
Our dubbers are excellent actors and, more important, they speak perfectly. 
I wish more people spoke like them, including myself!


----------



## TimLA

gabrigabri said:


> Sordi aveva un LEGGERISSIMO accento!!
> 
> How to say it in English?


 
Sordi had the slightest accent.
Sordi had the slightest of accents.


----------



## Sicanius

Ciao a tutti, 

mi intrometto un po' tardino nella discussione, ma vorrei dire la mia sulle due questioni: 1) l'italiano dell'Opera, 2) accento standard dell'italiano.

1) Invidio tantissimo chi sostiene di capire perfettamente l'italiano dei cantanti lirici. Io (ma molti italiani mi hanno confermato la stessa cosa) lo trovo alquanto difficile da capire, soprattutto se si tratta di un soprano e se non ho mai letto le parole della canzone. C'è una spiegazione scientica dietro tutto ciò che riguarda la frequenza fisica delle note cantate nella lirica: ad una certa altezza della frequenza (quini soprattutto quando sono i soprano a cantare) le consonanti sono quasi impercettibili, si ha l'impressione di sentire soltanto vocali. 

2) Per quanto riguarda l'accento dell'italiano standard, posso dirvi qual è la posizione principale nel mondo accademico (non del tutto priva di controversie però). La varietà italiana che viene considerata come standard è il fiorentino privato, però, dei suoi tratti tipicamente dialettali (gorgia toscana, pronuncia fricativa di _c_ e_ g_ intervocalici, un uso scorretto del congiuntivo al posto dell'indicativo, prima personal plurale dell'indicativo con il _si _impersonale , es. _noi si va_, e termini lessicali conosciuti come tipicamente toscani). Questo equivale a dire che l'italiano standard è un concetto abbastanza astratto, dato che non esiste una zona/città italiana dove viene parlato comunemente. E' una varietà che si aquisisce soltanto con l'istruzione (a volte si parla di "fiorentino educato"). E' vero che l'italiano settentrionale negli ultimi anni ha avuto una grande influenza sullo standard, ma non per questo l'italiano del nord può essere considerato italiano standard (oltre alla pronuncia, non bisogna dimenticare l'intonazione, anch'essa da "neutralizzare" per raggiungere lo standard). I presentatori dei tg (spesso anche gli speaker radiofonici) e i doppiatori parlano un'italiano standard, proprio perché la loro pronuncia non si identifica con nessun accento d'Italia. Negli ultimi anni, soprattutto nelle fiction italiane e nei programmi comici,  si da' più spazio ad un italiano reale, con enfasi sugli accenti regionali che identificano chiaramente le origini geografiche del parlante.

Spero di essere stato di aiuto (e non troppo pedante o noioso)
S.


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## Lucy Van Pelt

Concordo con Sicanius sull'italiano standard: è il toscano di Firenze o Siena, (non delle altre città toscane dove parlano leggermente diverso pronunciando per esempio alcune "e" aperte invece di e chiuse o altre cosette).

Un fiorentino che va a scuola di dizione deve semplicemente imparare a non aspirare la "c", la "g", la "p" e la "t".
Tutto il resto lo pronuncia già correttamente: accenti, doppie ecc.
anzi, un fiorentino che si sforza di parlare correttamente, come spesso succede in ambito lavorativo ecc, parla già un italiano correttissimo senza necessità di scuole di dizione.

Molto più difficile è imparare l'italiano standard per un milanese o un napoletnao, per motivi diversi, e c'è chi non lo impara mai....


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