# FR: il serait censé d’aider ses camarades



## lordterrin

Hello,

The following sentence was given to me as a translation for:

[_In the system of education I'm talking about here_,] *If a student is intelligent, he's expected/supposed to help his classmates.*

Si un enfant était intelligent, il serait censé d’aider ses camarades.

I cannot wrap my brain around why the verb être is conjugated in the imperfect in the first clause, nor why "he is expected to" is translated using the conditional + past participle.  Maybe this is just a stage of French I have not gotten to yet, but it sounds very strange to me.

Can anyone explain?

Thanks!


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## itka

Maybe, this thread, I wrote two days ago can help you !

the right translation is :
_" Si un enfant était intelligent, il serait censé aider ses camarades."_


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## radagasty

itka said:


> the right translation is :
> _" Si un enfant était intelligent, il serait censé aider ses camarades."_


 
The translation of this sentence back into English would be: _If a child were intelligent, he would be expected to help his classmates._

As far as I can tell, the original English sentence should be translated: _Si un enfant est intelligent, il est censé aider ses camarades._


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## lordterrin

Your thread does help, (and thanks for the correction,) but I'm still not sure I understand *why* you do this in French.  Why does one use the imperfect.... puis conditional + past participle in this regard?  It's definitely not easily understable to the native English tongue.


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## lordterrin

radagasty said:


> The translation of this sentence back into English would be: _If a child were intelligent, he would be expected to help his classmates._
> 
> As far as I can tell, the original English sentence should be translated: _Si un enfant est intelligent, il est censé aider ses camarades._




Yes, this seems to make more sense, but of course, I am trying to speak French the way the French speak, not the way it sounds best properly translated via English   The original idea, in English, is in the present tense:  

_If a student in a class is smarter than the rest of the students, and therefore ahead of his class, the natural course of action for that student is to help others rise up to his level, not "showboat" and just stay at the top of the class._

Hope this helps!

Brian


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## Nicomon

Well... as a francophone - unless it would be different in France - I kind of agree with radagasty. I would have translated your sentence to present tense. And I don't get why _student_ became _enfant._ 

For one thing, it seems to me that in this sentence, _if_ really means _when._ imho, the English could be reworded as _A student who's smarter/brighter than his classmates is expected/supposed to help them._

is expected to help = on s'attend à ce qu'il aide
is supposed to help = est censé aider

_- Un élève (qui est) plus brillant que ses camarades de classe est censé les aider. Serait censé_ (should) would also work. 
_- Si un élève est plus brillant que les autres, on s'attend à ce qu'il aide ses camarades/il est censé aider ses camarades/devrait aider ses camarades._

Edit _:_ this page may help. Scroll down to - *Concordance des temps dans les phrases conditionnelles introduites par si *


PS : tous les élèves sont intelligents... certains plus que d'autres.


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## Icetrance

lordterrin said:


> Hello,
> 
> The following sentence was given to me as a translation for:
> 
> [_In the system of education I'm talking about here_,] *If a student is intelligent, he's expected/supposed to help his classmates.*
> 
> Si un enfant était intelligent, il serait censé d’aider ses camarades.
> 
> I cannot wrap my brain around why the verb être is conjugated in the imperfect in the first clause, nor why "he is expected to" is translated using the conditional + past participle. Maybe this is just a stage of French I have not gotten to yet, but it sounds very strange to me.
> 
> Can anyone explain?
> 
> Thanks!


 
_It's like saying in English: *If* he *were* my friend, I *would* help him._

But, often in English we replace "were" by "was" (the latter is incorrect).

It's the same idea in French. That's why the imperfect tense is being used.

The translation of your sentence in French would be:

If a child *were* (to be) intelligent, he or she* should* help his classmates.

The meaning of "would" is built in the word "should" here.

There is also no reason in English why we couldn't replace "were" by "is." Sometimes, though, this is not possible. Be careful! Here it works, but not always.

If a child* is* intelligent, he or she* should* help his classmates (most natural to me)

Other option:

_*Should* a child* be* intelligent, he* ought *to help his classmates_


Does that clear things up for you?


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## lordterrin

yes, very much so.  I think the use of the imperfect kind of fits around the rest of my paper and sentences around it - so it does work, but I wanted to understand exactly how putting the verbs in different tenses changed the meaning.  You guys are all my heroes today


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## Grop

lordterrin said:


> il serait censé d’aider ...



Hello, I think there is something tricky here:
Il serait censé aider ... -> He would be expected to help ...
Il serait sensé d'aider ... -> It would be wise to help ...


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## Icetrance

We can also use the conditional in a "if" clause in Engish, unlike French.

_*If *he *would *be nicer, I *would *help him out a bit more._

So, lordterrain, you figured out why the imperfect tense is used here then?

I also like "would be expected" better than all of my suggestions as a translation. That's not to say that my suggestions are not correct. I just think it really really natural ("should" does, too, though).


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## Nicomon

If I offended anyone by rephrasing the originally submitted French sentence... I'm sorry.  
I never meant to imply that it wasn't good French. I was only surprised to see, as lordterrin was - and I still am - that the original present tense in English was rendered in the imperfect + conditional in French. When present tense is, in my opinion, perfectly correct. Then again, that may be Quebec French, or Nico French. 

I now know, as lordterrin confirmed, that imperfect fits well in context, but then... I can't help wondering why the original English wasn't phrased like the natives confirmed, i.e. _If a child were intelligent, he would be expected to help his classmates. _

Which goes to show that a single sentence, without the surrounding ones isn't always sufficient to do a good translation.


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## EvenMore

Nicomon said:


> is expected to help = on s'attend à ce qu'il aide
> is supposed to help = est censé aider.


plus concis ?
peut/doit aider



Nicomon said:


> PS : tous les élèves sont intelligents... certains plus que d'autres.


est-ce que c'est vrai aussi  pour les enseignants ?


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## EvenMore

itka said:


> the right translation is :
> _" Si un enfant était intelligent, il serait censé aider ses camarades."_


voui, certes il y a une cohérence grammaticale dans cette formulation.

Mais une lecture logicienne prenant en compte le passé et a conditionnalité de cette proposition nous amène à penser qu'on a constaté que les choses ne se sont pas passées comme prévues et qu'on se demande donc pourquoi.
SOIT l'enfant n'est pas intelligent, SOIT il est intelligent et n'aide pas.

Il me semble bien que la situation prise en compte dans la question initiale est une implication linéaire qui ne laisse pas de doute et qui se réalise toujours d'où le présent de l'indicatif: 
"*dans le cas* où l'élève EST intelligent, il peut/doit aider ses camarades de classe."

mais bon, ce n'est que ma lecture.


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## radagasty

Nicomon said:


> I now know, as lordterrin confirmed, that imperfect fits well in context, but then... I can't help wondering why the original English wasn't phrased like the natives confirmed, i.e. _If a child were intelligent, he would be expected to help his classmates._


 
Whilst grammatically correct, I don't feel that this tense/mood is acceptable in this particular context. The subjunctive -> conditional structure expresses a counterfactual hypothesis, and is usually used in a sentence like _If I were rich, I would buy a big house. _Here, the implication is that the condition is not true, i.e., I am not in fact rich.

In the context of the original sentence, using this structure doesn't IMHO quite work. _If a child were intelligent, he would be expected to help his classmates_. This would suggest that children were generally unintelligent. Rather, the 'correct' sentiment would be that some children are more intelligent than others, and those who are ought to help the others, which is why the present tense is appropriate in English.

I'm faintly puzzled by the support that native speakers have given to the imperfect -> conditional form. I had been my impression that, like the subjunctive -> conditional structure in English, the French structure also expresses a counterfactual, e.g., doesn't _Si j'étais riche, j'achèterais une grande maison_ similarly imply that I am not in fact rich?


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## EvenMore

radagasty said:


> .., which is why the present tense is appropriate in English.
> ....
> I'm *faintly* puzzled by the support that native speakers have given ...


Not sure about it 
You mean *IF* I was a french native speaker *THEN* I COULD not agree ?


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## Grop

radagasty said:


> I had been my impression that, like the subjunctive -> conditional structure in English, the French structure also expresses a counterfactual, e.g., doesn't _Si j'étais riche, j'achèterais une grande maison_ similarly imply that I am not in fact rich?



Yes it does. I think most of us focused at the most obvious fault (the "d'" in censé d'aider). The sentence "Si un enfant était intelligent, il serait censé aider ses camarades." may be inappropriate, but it is a possible sentence.


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## Nicomon

EvenMore said:


> Il me semble bien que la situation prise en compte dans la question initiale est une implication linéaire qui ne laisse pas de doute et qui se réalise toujours d'où le présent de l'indicatif:
> "*dans le cas* où l'élève EST intelligent, il peut/doit aider ses camarades de classe."
> 
> mais bon, ce n'est que ma lecture.


 
C'est la mienne aussi. D'où ma suggestion initiale. Je comprends la phrase anglaise comme : _A student who's intelligent/smarter than the others is expected to help his classmates._

Bien d'accord pour ce qui est de la concision _peut/doit._


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## Icetrance

radagasty said:


> Whilst grammatically correct, I don't feel that this tense/mood is acceptable in this particular context. The subjunctive -> conditional structure expresses a counterfactual hypothesis, and is usually used in a sentence like _If I were rich, I would buy a big house. _Here, the implication is that the condition is not true, i.e., I am not in fact rich.
> 
> In the context of the original sentence, using this structure doesn't IMHO quite work. _If a child were intelligent, he would be expected to help his classmates_. This would suggest that children were generally unintelligent. Rather, the 'correct' sentiment would be that some children are more intelligent than others, and those who are ought to help the others, which is why the present tense is appropriate in English.
> 
> I'm faintly puzzled by the support that native speakers have given to the imperfect -> conditional form. I had been my impression that, like the subjunctive -> conditional structure in English, the French structure also expresses a counterfactual, e.g., doesn't _Si j'étais riche, j'achèterais une grande maison_ similarly imply that I am not in fact rich?


 
I see where you're going with this, but I think you need to stick "to be" in there in order to see where I'm coming from.

I never said the sentence was perfectly acceptable. It sounds a little funny to me, but still possible with a little insert to make it sound a little better.

If a child were *(TO BE)* intelligent, he'd be expected to help his classmates = In the case where a child is intelligent, he'd be...

I said earlier that "If I child is intelligent, he should help his classmates" would sound most natural (or, "he would be expected to...")

Also, you could say:

_If a child is intelligent, he ought to help his classmates._

_Should a child be intelligent, he ought to help his classmates_ (sounds a bit formal, but it could be said)


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