# إستبرق



## Mazhara

إستبرق

 وَيَلْبَسُونَ ثِيَابًا خُضْرًا مِّن سُندُسٍ وَإِسْتَبْرَقٍ

أستبرق (الصّحّاح في اللغة)
الإسْتَبْرَقُ: الديباجُ الغليظ، فارسيُّ معربٌ، وتصغيره أبَيْرِقٌ.

وذكر الجوهري هنا: الإسْتبرقُ الدّيباجُ الغليظُ، فارسي معرَّب، 

Notwithstanding our respects for the aforementioned great works, the fact of the matter is that this peculiar cloth, Brocade, was not introduced and produced by Persia, It was produced and exported by China to Arabia


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## cherine

And your question is?


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## Mazhara

cherine said:


> And your question is?


 
Thanks,

I want to know whether an Arabic verb could be put in use to assign a proper name/noun to some object or person?


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## Josh_

There are some verbal forms that are used as proper names:

Ahmed -- أحمد --I praise.
Yazid -- يزيد -- he increases.

At the moment I can't think of any verbal forms used as nouns to refer to inanimate objects. None may exist, as a noun form could easily be used.

Perhaps you are going to tie this in to how the Arabized noun إستبرقٌ (_istabraqun_) is somehow related to a certain Arabic verb استبرقَ (_istabraqa_; to shine with lightning). 

This is most likely just a coincidence. When words are Arabized I imagine they are most often fitted (for lack of a better word) into an existing Arabic root (if this is possible, which it not always is; sometimes a new pattern has to be created). I don't know what the word was in its original language, whether it be Persian or otherwise, but it probably just so happened that it fit the pattern إستفعل better than any other pattern when borrowed into Arabic.

Also note, that this word has a _hamzatu 'l-qaT3_ on its initial alif, whereas the verb form has a _hamzatu 'l-waSl_  which is unwritten. If a verb form were applied to some object as a noun, one would expect the _hamzatu' l-waSl_ to remain intact as well.


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## Mazhara

Thanks Josh,



> whereas the verb form has a _hamzatu 'l-waSl_ which is unwritten.


 
Do you mean that after vovelled hamza there is elided _hamzatu 'l-waSl. I could not get it._


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## Mazhara

> Perhaps you are going to tie this in to how the Arabized noun إستبرقٌ (_istabraqun_) is somehow related to a certain Arabic verb استبرقَ (_istabraqa_; to shine with lightning).


 
Thanks Josh,

The un-resolved issue of loan words as you know is an old debate, and much material, pro and against-and middle way too, is available.

At the moment I only wish to exactly find out the precise meanings and perception inclusive of connotations added, conveyed by the perfect verb, third person, masculine, Form-X,   استبرقَ at its own strength. And I also want to know the verbal noun.


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## Ustaath

Mazhara said:


> And I also want to know the verbal noun.


أستبرق أستبراقاَ مستبرق

Honestly I balk at trying to use these in sentences


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## Mazhara

Ustaath said:


> أستبرق أستبراقاَ مستبرق
> 
> Honestly I balk at trying to use these in sentences


 
Thanks,

However, such words need to be used which mirror the actual fact most honestly and accurately. Your quote says it is Form-X.

Measure X generally means to seek out or aspire for the meaning of Measure I onto ones self. 

This word points to the cloth named as "Brocade", 

In English it denotes a heavy fabric with a raised design and as a transitive verb denotes weave a fabric with raised design". [Dictionary, Encyclopedia Encarta]. Its etymology suggests, "The name, related to the same root as the word "broccoli", comes from Italian _broccato_ meaning "embossed cloth," originally past participle of the verb _broccare_ "to stud, set with nails," from _brocco_, "small nail," from Latin _broccus_, "projecting, pointed."


let us see what the Brocade is. A woven fabric self-patterned. It is a satin weave and the pattern has a reversible positive/negative image. It relies on the play of light to give dimension to the pattern, which is subtle and rich at the same time. One side of the cloth always has darker face over the other. The pattern is created when light falls on the fabric. The light reflects off areas of visible arranged fabric warp threads, which look shiny against visible weft threads that look dull within the weave.

Another acquired trait of "Brocade" is exactly common with natural lightening. The effect of lightening on sight is that immediately after flash there is a dark shade. Brocade has this peculiar feature, created with great skill by some brainy Chinese producing exactly what is the effect of lightening.
Can there be a word better than إِسْتَبْرَقٌ that could portray the idea and conception which was in the mind of that Chinese who conceived and produced this fabric?


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## lukebeadgcf

Mazhara said:


> Thanks Josh,
> 
> 
> 
> Do you mean that after vovelled hamza there is elided _hamzatu 'l-waSl. I could not get it._



The verb استبرق doesn't really have a همزة at all. It only has a prosthetic helping vowel to facilitate the pronunciation of the word (because otherwise it would start with a سكون, which is forbidden). There is no real همزة قطع, only a همزة وصل which is pronounced the same as a همزة قطع when it is utterance-initial. But it is weak. If it is proceeded by other vowel sounds, it will give way to the respective sound.

Say:

اهدنا الصراط المستقيم

Now say:

إياك نعبد وإياك نستعينُ اهدنا الصراط المستقيم

without pausing and notice the difference.

The noun إستبرق on the other hand has a real همزة قطع. It is therefore always written and always pronounced (even if proceeded by other vowel sounds).

Hope that makes sense.


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## Mazhara

Lukebeadgcf,

Thanks a lot.


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## Ustaath

Mazhara said:


> Thanks,
> Can there be a word better than إِسْتَبْرَقٌ that could portray the idea and conception which was in the mind of that Chinese who conceived and produced this fabric?


I'm aware of Form X and derivative meanings  It just doesn't come naturally to me as a native speaker to use the one's I mentioned unless for some obscure rhetoric reason.
A better word? 
Maybe not, I just would like to know what the original word was - it is not uncommon for loan words to be double loan words- more on that below, but basically it is highly unusual ( but not 'never' ) for verbs to be used as nouns- which is why older scholars suggested perhaps that it was a loan word. 

Double loan word: ( apology for linguists out there who know I just made this word up)
أرضي شوكي the Levant word for artichoke - gives you the impression that its an Arabised word from the French ( and English ) , which conveniently describes in Arabic what the plant looks like: a 'thorn of the land'
- but in reality artichoke comes from the Arabic الخرشوف
and then boomeranged back to the Middle East.

But this will always remain speculation for أستبرق perhaps the Persians wanted to give it a fancy exotic name, and chose an Arabic one, like some designer labels in America giving perfume French-sounding names. 

If أستبرق comes from Arabic than it is more likely in my opinion to have boomeranged back, just because it is so uncommon, but we can't really build strong arguments from lack of evidence.


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## Ustaath

Mazhara said:


> Thanks,
> 
> 
> 
> In English it denotes a heavy fabric with a raised design and as a transitive verb denotes weave a fabric with raised design". [Dictionary, Encyclopedia Encarta]. Its etymology suggests, "The name, related to the same root as the word "broccoli", comes from Italian _broccato_ meaning "embossed cloth," originally past participle of the verb _broccare_ "to stud, set with nails," from _brocco_, "small nail," from Latin _broccus_, "projecting, pointed."


In retrospect, here lies a clue, "Broccus", sounds eerily close to برق - . If there is a common Indo European root (Latin ,and Farsi), than the Persian word could be from a non-Arab older Indo -European root ... such false cognates are not uncommon in all languages .
In which case the IE describes the texture whereas the Arabic describes the appearance , which is a consequence of the texture, and hence the confusion.


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## Mazhara

Ustaath said:


> In retrospect, here lies a clue, "Broccus", sounds eerily close to برق - . If there is a common Indo European root (Latin ,and Farsi), than the Persian word could be from a non-Arab older Indo -European root ... such false cognates are not uncommon in all languages .
> In which case the IE describes the texture whereas the Arabic describes the appearance , which is a consequence of the texture, and hence the confusion.


 
We are talking about a word which is not about something abstract. It is a verbal image of particular cloth. Therefore its origin has to be traced back by moving to place of its origin where it was produced for the first time.

The quality material, refined weaving and the wide use of gold and silver threads. This magnificence gained the name of Yun, which means 'cloud'.

Italian considered the gold and silver threads only to the name this cloth.


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## Ustaath

now cloud of-course is the opposite, more or less of the Arabic meaning of أستبرق
Would you then say that the  French name Camille is from Arabic as كميل can also be considered an Arabic name from a trilateral root ك م ل?
I know of two men who go by this name, and pronounce them the same in Arabic-  one a son of a 'francophone' Arab and the other the son of an Arabist.


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## Mazhara

Ustaath said:


> now cloud of-course is the opposite, more or less of the Arabic meaning of أستبرق
> Would you then say that the French name Camille is from Arabic as كميل can also be considered an Arabic name from a trilateral root ك م ل?
> I know of two men who go by this name, and pronounce them the same in Arabic- one a son of a 'francophone' Arab and the other the son of an Arabist.


 
The issue is about the origin of a word.  The best course to arrive at the true origin of the word is to trace back the origin of the object it refers to. It takes us 1500 years back in time to Jiankang, present-day Nanjing City of China. There we are introduced "Nanjing Yunjin" the incredibly beautiful brocade made in Nanjing, capital city of eastern Jiangsu Province. Yun in Chinese means "clouds", and jin means "brocade".

And we find this fabric mentioned in Qur'aan by the name إِسْتَبْرَقٌ in the adjacent period of its introduction.  The Arabic word mirroring this cloth seems to have made a correction to the "Yunjin"-Cloud Brocade, since its features and peculiarity is not relevant to all the clouds. Lightening is not produced by all the clouds. Cumulonimbus or thundercloud, *الْمُعْصِرَاتِ *in Arabic, they produce lightening.


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## Ustaath

OK got it, sorry for being so slow I think I understand your gist - it's a good theory and quite plausible- the  question remains: why did the Arab scholars consider it a loan word -I


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## Faylasoof

Josh_ said:


> ....
> Perhaps you are going to tie this in to how the Arabized noun إستبرقٌ (_istabraqun_) is somehow related to a certain Arabic verb استبرقَ (_istabraqa_; to shine with lightning).
> 
> This is most likely just a coincidence. When  words are Arabized I imagine they are most often fitted (for lack of a  better word) into an existing Arabic root (if this is possible, which it  not always is; sometimes a new pattern has to be created).....


 
I quite agree Josh!



Josh_ said:


> I don't know what the word was in its original language,  whether it be Persian or otherwise, but it probably just so happened  that it fit the pattern إستفعل better than any other pattern when  borrowed into Arabic.
> 
> 
> Also note, that this word has a _hamzatu 'l-qaT3_ on its initial alif, whereas the verb form has a _hamzatu 'l-waSl_  which is unwritten. If a verb form were applied to some object as a noun, one would expect the _hamzatu' l-waSl_ to remain intact as well.


I give below a short derivation! ... and agree with this too!



Ustaath said:


> OK got it, sorry for being so slow I think I understand your gist - it's a good theory and quite plausible- the  question remains: why did the Arab scholars consider it a loan word -I


Because many Arab _and _non-Arab scholars (wiritng in Arabic) had knowledge of philology!

 al-Kindi, ibn Atheer, Jalaludin as-Suyuti, as-Sijistani, and many more (!), recognised it as a Persian borrowing! 

In Middle Persian (Pahlavi) the word for brocade is the unrelated term _bedaag_, however, al-Jawhari stated that it is from another Persian word: 

 *istabrah* (or *astabrah*)

But this itself is originally from the Pahlavi *stabr* = coarse, thick, strong; which in turn is related to the Avestan *stavra* or _*staura*, _with the same / similar meaning.

The Pahlavi term_ *stabrag* _referred to silk, esp. _coarse, thick silk_ and _this_ word was used in eschatological Pahalvi writings. Modern Persian uses استبرک_* istabrak* _which is a direct descendent of _*stabrag* _!

So, from the Pahlavi *stabrag* we end up with the Arabic إستبرق *istabraq* due most likely to _direct borrowing_. 

Because Arabic dictionaries are arranged by the triliteral root, foreign borrowings also end up in the nearest root, which is why إستبرق happens to be under ب۔ر۔ق …. and as Josh is saying above, it is just coincidental that there happens to be the seemingly (but actually not) related verb  استبرقَ_ *istabraqa*_ under the same root!


BTW, Persians of the period concerned may not have produced silk but they probably wore it! Certainly, and as stated above, in their religious writings a special kind of silk clothing (*stabrag*) was referred to, with the derivation as shown above.


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## Mazhara

Ustaath said:


> OK got it, sorry for being so slow I think I understand your gist - it's a good theory and quite plausible- the question remains: why did the Arab scholars consider it a loan word -I


 
Thanks.

Arthur Jeffery, author of the "Foreign vocabulary of Qur'aan" also made it a strong support argument for his otherwise an ordinary work.

Arab scholars, no doubt, did a great work and we owe them a lot. But the fact remains, they were human beings, prone to err. 

May be, not finding this word in poetry or in general parlance of the day, they preferred to opine and declare it a loan word.

I am sure that the Arabs, before Qur'aan, may not have heard or used the phrase حبل الوريد. It puzzles me, a Non Arab, with no school/college/'varsity background of Arabic as study subject, as to why majority called it Jugular vein. What relationship حبل could have with a vessel?


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## Faylasoof

Mazhara said:


> Thanks.
> ...
> Arab scholars, no doubt, did a great work and we owe them a lot. But the fact remains, they were human beings, _*prone to err. *_
> 
> May be, not finding this word in poetry or in general parlance of the day, they preferred to opine and declare it a loan word.
> ....


...and you are not erring! 

The derivation of *إستبرق* is as above though you are most welcome to come up with fantastical theories! Just don't expect us to swallow all that!


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## Mazhara

Faylasoof said:


> ...and you are not erring!
> 
> The derivation of *إستبرق* is as above though you are most welcome to come up with fantastical theories! Just don't expect us to swallow all that!


 
Thanks. However, you may have not counted as to how many fantasies are there in the journey, some parts of which are missing having been quoted, to reach to Persia to find this word, with a wavery and uncertain belief.


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## Faylasoof

Mazhara said:


> Thanks. However, you may have not counted as to how many fantasies are there in the journey, some parts of which are missing having been quoted, to reach to Persia to find this word, with a wavery and uncertain belief.



  I've seldom seen such convoluted arguments as presented here to somehow make it a pure Arabic word! Perhaps you should look a little beyond and start reading other ancient languages, for example the Pahalvi language, Syriac / Aramaic, Hebrew, Greek etc. and you'll find words from these and other languages are indeed found in the Quran.

I feel it is quite useless having any further discussion with you on this since quite clearly you have made your mind up that it cannot be possibly of any origin than Arabic and least of all with a Persian etymology, despite the philological evidence from noted scholars of the past … Oh sorry! I just remembered you said they all erred!

For others who might still be interested, here is what لغت نامه دهخدا (_loghatnameh dehkhuda_), a well-known Persian dictionary, says – it is معرب (!) as has been stated before.


استبرک . [ اِ ت َ رَ ] (اِ) دیبای گنده و سطبر. رجوع به استبرق شود.​ 
استبرق . [ اِ ت َ رَ ] (معرب ، اِ) معرب استبرک . (منتهی الارب ). ۞ دیبا. (مهذب الاسماء). دیبای ستبر. (ربنجنی ). دیبای سطبر یا دیبا که بزر ساخته باشند یا جامه ٔ حریر سطبر مانند دیبا یا برنداق سرخ مشابه زههای کمان . (منتهی الارب ). دیبای سفت و گنده است مثل اطلس . (غیاث اللغات ). دیبائی ستبر است چنانکه سندس دیبائی تُنُک است . دیباج غلیظ فمما اخذوه [ای العرب ] من الفارسیة الاستبرق ، غلیظ الحریر و اصله استروه . (از جمهره ٔ ابن درید بنقل سیوطی در المزهر). و صاحب تاج العروس گوید ابن درید در جمهره استبرق را از الفاظ مأخوذه ٔ از سریانی گفته است . الاستبرق ، غلیظ الدیباج ، فارسی معرب ، و اصله «استفره » و قال ابن درید«استروه » و نقل من العجمیة الی العربیة، 
​


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## Ustaath

Allow me to add that I have see English words beginning with 's' transliterated into Arabic as "أس"  أسمايل (Smile- the name of a Photo Studio ) and - now this is interesting: أستار - which could be could be a derivative of form IV of ستر with connotations but means 'Star" the name of a Beauty Parlor. These are faithfully following the aforementioned spelling rule of no word beginning with a sukoon, hence the Alif


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## Mazhara

> استبرک . [ اِ ت َ رَ ] (اِ) دیبای گنده و سطبر. رجوع به استبرق شود.​
> 
> 
> استبرق . [ اِ ت َ رَ ] (معرب ، اِ) معرب استبرک . (منتهی الارب ). ۞ دیبا. (مهذب الاسماء). دیبای ستبر. (ربنجنی ). دیبای سطبر یا دیبا که بزر ساخته باشند یا جامه ٔ حریر سطبر مانند دیبا یا برنداق سرخ مشابه زههای کمان . (منتهی الارب ). دیبای سفت و گنده است مثل اطلس . (غیاث اللغات ). دیبائی ستبر است چنانکه سندس دیبائی تُنُک است . دیباج غلیظ فمما اخذوه [ای العرب ] من الفارسیة الاستبرق ، غلیظ الحریر و اصله استروه . (از جمهره ٔ ابن درید بنقل سیوطی در المزهر). و صاحب تاج العروس گوید ابن درید در جمهره استبرق را از الفاظ مأخوذه ٔ از سریانی گفته است . الاستبرق ، غلیظ الدیباج ، فارسی معرب ، و اصله «استفره » و قال ابن درید«استروه » و نقل من العجمیة الی العربیة،
> ​


​
Brother,

This was already present in post 17.


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## Mazhara

Ustaath said:


> Allow me to add that I have see English words beginning with 's' transliterated into Arabic as "أس" أسمايل (Smile- the name of a Photo Studio ) and - now this is interesting: أستار - which could be could be a derivative of form IV of ستر with connotations but means 'Star" the name of a Beauty Parlor. These are faithfully following the aforementioned spelling rule of no word beginning with a sukoon, hence the Alif


 

Ustaath, Thanks

I understand this from another perspective, courtesy first Ayah of Qur'aan comprising one letter and two consonants with two prolongation signs, that Arabic language writing system is letter-diacritic combination based, resulting in the combination of sounds that form a syllable, rather than a single sound. 
 
The shortest syllable is a consonant + Vowel. Therefore speech cannot be initiated with a vowel less consonant.
 
And this fact about Arabic is fascinating. It shows that speech is in fact a combined effort of nature and human being. Consonants with built in sound are first in existence, vowel is human willful effort which adds colours, shades, dimensions, states, movements, etc to already assigned meanings and perceptions to a distinct sequence of consonants-Arabic Root.
 
Ustaath, your mother language is the great. I am lucky that my mother language extensively borrowed from your language.


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## cherine

*Although this is not the etymology forum, we let this thread take a reasonable course. The etymology of the word has been established from many trusted sources. It was also established that there is no such verb as istabraq.

This thread is therefore closed. The Arabic forum welcomes any and all serious and academic questions about the language (vocabulary, structure and grammar). Questions about etymology and/or possible made-up words do no belong here.

Thank you all for your understanding.

Regards,
Cherine
Moderator

*


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