# What is it about Italian restaurants?



## maxiogee

When I'm in any restaurant and ask for salt or pepper (if it is not already on the table) I will be given a salt cellar/mill and a pepper mill and will be allowed to administer as much or as little as I wish, and where I wish, to my food.

BUT
Let me be in an Italian establishment and almost as soon as the food is served a macho type will swagger up to the table and ask if I want pepper. He (and it's nearly always a "he") will then wield a pepper mill over my plate and grind it for me. Sometimes these pepper mills are whopping great phallic symbols and there is a big performance around giving someone some pepper! Why can they not let me administer my own pepper?
They also come out with a tiny dish of parmesan cheese and offer it, guardedly, and then spoon some - always only 'some', never 'enough' unless I raise an eyebrow when they look like stopping - onto my food. Am I to be presumed to be likely to be far too lavish with this exotic substance?

Note
This thread may wander from pepper/parmesan stinginess but please confine it to Italian restaurants or we'll never control it at all!


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## danalto

Um, WHERE do you go to eat, maxiogee? 
Never had such problems, and *I am *Italian!


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## geve

Yes, this might be a local phenomenon... or they just think that _you_, Tony, can't handle the pepper and parmesan by yourself  

When I go to an italian restaurant, sometimes they repeatedly forget to bring the parmesan. Sometimes they'll make pizzas in the shape of a heart. But they never, ever offer to sprinkle salt, pepper or parmesan on my dish for me!


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## maxiogee

I have eaten in many places, and it has been noted in - among others - Dublin, London, Belfast, Paris, Barcelona, New York, Washington, Boston, Toronto, Vancouver, and yes, even Rome and a beaut little seafood place in Anzio.


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## danalto

Do you believe me if I'll tell you that something like that never occured to me?


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## maxiogee

Of course I believe you, why would I not?


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## panjandrum

I have never had this experience in an Italian Italian restaurant.
It seems to be normal in Italian restaurants in England.

Here, the phallic pepper mill sometimes makes an appearance.
The parmesan dish is sometimes brought by the waitperson - who may offer to administer it.  A simple comment, and the dish is left on the table for me to help myself.

I have a feeling, no more, that relatively few people use parmesan.  I'll consult an expert on the whole topic tomorrow.


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## cuchuflete

There is an international conspiracy to train waiters and waitresses, and perhaps hermaphroditic and asexual waitpersons as well, for service in US Italian restaurants.
They do the phallic pepper grinder number, but this is in addition to the presence of salt and pepper shakers on the table.  They over-enunciate "Would you care for some *fresh* pepper on your spumoni, Sir/Madam?".

Over here they generally don't sprinkle the parmigiano from a dish, but use a little grater, and continue to grind until you say abbastanza.  They atone for the pepper silliness with good olive oil and roasted garlic for bread.


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## KateNicole

Pepper on spumoni????? Blah! The pepper mill and cheese grinder phenomenon reminds me of the ever-popular American chain restaurant, xxxxx xxxxxx. They always ask me if I would like "freshly grated Romano cheese" on my soup, and they say "tell me when" . . . but I love cheese so much that I would be embarassed to make them crank that grinder over my plate for 3+ minutes. I wish they would leave it on the table, too. However, it's probably part of the corporate mindset which says that the "guest" (not customer) not being bothered with administering his own cheese is a part of "Italian hospitality" and only adds to the dining experience.

*Mod Edit*:  Please do not use the name of commercial establishments in posts.


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## Moogey

This is something that I have experienced here in America. My family and I go to Italian restaurants a couple times a month, and this happens in some restaurants, but not all. Some do so, others put them on the table for you, like the one I was at last night. I suppose it's just Italian-American tradition moreso than Italian, given that danalto hasn't experienced this and she lives in Italy!

-M


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## jamaisvu

Though you may be unaware of it, asking for extra salt/cheese is an insult to the chef (any self-respecting chef that is). A proper sauce that follows the tenets of the 'old-ways' should not need any extra seasoning.

Now, the 'phallic pepper grinder' of epic proportions is something designed by corporate America. It has no place in a proper Italian establishment.


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## DesertCat

In my experience it's not only the Italian-American restaurants that like to control the pepper mill, but almost all medium and high end American restaurants.  Incidentally, the few Italian restaurants that I've been to that are owned by native Italians are less inclined to do this.


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## maxiogee

jamaisvu said:
			
		

> Though you may be unaware of it, asking for extra salt/cheese is an insult to the chef (any self-respecting chef that is).  A proper sauce that follows the tenets of the 'old-ways' should not need any extra seasoning.



With all due respect, I disagree totally.
Have you never read a recipe which ended "season to taste"?
The Chef's taste and mine are unlikely to coincide.
I wouldn't doubt that the chef's work leaves the kitchen in a high state of 'perfection' - from the chef's viewpoint. But coming from a different culture and having a different palate, I reserve the right to fine-tune.


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## cuchuflete

The claim that the pepper grinder of tumescent dimensions is a 'corporate america' design is merely unsubstantiated opinion--so far.  I've seen such items--pepper grinders--throughout Europe.  Perhaps their origins are Mayan or Etruscan or they grow under wedges of formaggio di Parma.


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## panjandrum

I have, once again, conducted extensive research on behalf of WR, and here are the results of the interview.

In the UK the adding of pepper by staff, not the diner, happens because all the pepper grinders left on the tables have been nicked by customers.

A very large pepper mill is used because it would not be considered acceptable for the staff to get that close to the diner and the food (and of course there are the other more aesthetic reasons ).

Most diners want extra pepper.

The parmesan is not left permanently on the tables to meet Health and Safety regulations.

Do you ever spoon the parmesan onto the food for the diner?
NO - certainly not. If they want parmesan (and we ask if they want parmesan) the dish is brought to the table and left there until that course is finished.

Very few diners want parmesan.

Please note this survey is based on Northern Irish and Northern English habits and preferences


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## panjandrum

jamaisvu said:
			
		

> Though you may be unaware of it, asking for extra salt/cheese is an insult to the chef (any self-respecting chef that is). A proper sauce that follows the tenets of the 'old-ways' should not need any extra seasoning.
> 
> Now, the 'phallic pepper grinder' of epic proportions is something designed by corporate America. It has no place in a proper Italian establishment.


What an extremely patronising comment


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## ElaineG

Here in NY, the large pepper grinder trend is thankfully winding to a close.

It is a definite sign of being in a restaurant with pretensions but not credentials, here, as no actual high-end (either high end in terms of elegance or high end in terms of its place in the culinary universe) would do such a thing.  Its manifestation is in no way limited to Italian restaurants as Desert Cat has noticed.

But anyway, it is hopelessly passe, pretentious and silly now, and is a red flag to me about a new restaurant.  (Some older well-worn French bistros here do it, and I tolerantly allow them their foolishness, making sure to only allow pepper on those dishes that actually warrant it, and to limit the enthusiastic wielder to two turns of the mill).

As for parmesan, the best places offer a small dish or table service of freshly shaved (not pre-ground) parmesan.  Others leave it on the table for you and then remove it after you have helped yourself.  Everyone will leave it if you ask that it stays.

But we are obviously one of the world's more hard-core dining cities with an incredibly knowledgeable, demanding and judgmental public, so I would expect silly stuff like the pepper mill to linger longer elsewhere.


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## maxiogee

ElaineG said:
			
		

> But anyway, it is hopelessly passe, pretentious and silly now, and is a red flag to me about a new restaurant.



Yes, but as with many such 'red flags' they don't fly them outside. You have to be inside and seated (and you often have ordered) before you see them.


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## cuchuflete

My stomach is still grumbling at the red flag I ingested at the thought of insulting a chef.   I wonder if the writer of that admonition has ever been served under-spiced food, or something prepared by a chef having a bad hair day.  Should we consume it without remedy just to avoid insult?  I thought the chef was in the restaurant for the benefit of the diners, and not the other way around.

According to the logic of the 'don't insult the chef' partisans, one must always leave a lavish tip, to avoid insulting the bus boy, even if he drops plates in one's lap.   Nonsense.


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## fenixpollo

DesertCat said:
			
		

> In my experience it's not only the Italian-American restaurants that like to control the pepper mill, but almost all medium and high end American restaurants. Incidentally, the few Italian restaurants that I've been to that are owned by native Italians are less inclined to do this.


 Not surprisingly, my experience is identical to Desert Cat's.    I have noticed the trend for at least 15 years.  If it is disappearing, praise Bacchus! 

I have noticed absolutely no correlation between phallic pepper grinders and Italian restaurants.


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## ElaineG

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> My stomach is still grumbling at the red flag I ingested at the thought of insulting a chef. I wonder if the writer of that admonition has ever been served under-spiced food, or something prepared by a chef having a bad hair day. Should we consume it without remedy just to avoid insult? I thought the chef was in the restaurant for the benefit of the diners, and not the other way around.
> 
> According to the logic of the 'don't insult the chef' partisans, one must always leave a lavish tip, to avoid insulting the bus boy, even if he drops plates in one's lap. Nonsense.


 
It is vaguely insulting to the chef (and more importantly, just not being kind to your own palate) to enter a new eatery where you have reason to believe the chef might know what s/he is doing (i.e., not a truck stop or a chain slopperia) and violently season your food without tasting.  I feel the same way as a home cook -- taste my food before reflexively reaching for the pepper grinder -- I _might_ have gotten it right.  Or I might have over-salted myself.  I always taste before seasoning, but have met many diners who seem to think that all food tastes better with a half-inch crust of salt.  This seems silly to me.

It is never an insult to adjust table seasonings (most usually salt and pepper, but hot sauce also, in many cuisines) to taste.  This is particularly true in an era when many chefs intentionally low-ball the salt out of deference to patrons who are anti-salt for medical or other reasons.


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## nycphotography

jamaisvu said:
			
		

> Though you may be unaware of it, asking for extra salt/cheese is an insult to the chef (any self-respecting chef that is). A proper sauce that follows the tenets of the 'old-ways' should not need any extra seasoning.


 
Yes, but the NEW WAYS have to accomodate every bizarre condition from high blood pressure, to lactose intolerance, to simple dieting.  Sending a plate of "salted to taste" food to the table may be an insult to the diner, who will have to take water pills for a week if she eats it.

So they cut back on the salt and pepper and cheese, things which can easily be added at the table.

Either way.  I'm not to terribly if the chef feels insulted... AFTER I have my food, mind you.  ;-)

And yes, the phallic pepper mill of grand proportions and the cheese grater are sometimes found in NYC as well, although I think they are more common in the "family style italian chain" restaurants in America.  It's how they make rather simple people feel as though they are really being catered to.

Myself, you can grind my cheese and pepper, or you can leave the grinders for me. I don't much care either way.  When I get cranky is when whatever thing you do becomes either snobbish, or when it inconveniences me.


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## nycphotography

panjandrum said:
			
		

> In the UK the adding of pepper by staff, not the diner, happens because all the pepper grinders left on the tables have been nicked by customers.


 
I'd suggest they try those exploding red dye packs used by banks.  Or a wailing alarm tag.  Either can be neatly deployed into the bottom of the grinder.

One or two rather public humiliations should slow down the thefts considerably.


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## gato2

It never has happened to me in any Italian restaurant in Spain but once it happenned in a Italian restaurant in Leeds. I found it quite annoying.


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## TimeHP

> Let me be in an Italian establishment and almost as soon as the food is served a macho type will swagger up to the table and ask if I want pepper. He (and it's nearly always a "he") will then wield a pepper mill over my plate and grind it for me. Sometimes these pepper mills are whopping great phallic symbols and there is a big performance around giving someone some pepper


 
What do you hate most? The pepper? The phallic symbol? Or the fact that the presumed Italian waiter is macho?  
Joking aside, in Italy we don't use a lot of pepper, we tend to use a lot of chilli, instead.
And I've never met a waiter shaking a great pepper pot menacingly...

Ciao


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