# a place to eat (= a place where I can eat)



## Nino83

Hello everyone.

I'm wondering how do you say "place to eat" (posto per mangiare) in Japanese. 
Is there any *place to eat* near here?
C'è un *posto per mangiare* nelle vicinanze?
すぐ近くに*食べるところ*があるんですか。 
Or should I say "*食べ場*"?


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## Flaminius

Hi,

The right expression is 食べるところ.  食べ場 is non-existent.  If I am forced to interpret it, I would imagine it's a feed lot for cattle.

A more natural sentence using your expressions is: 近くに食べるところはありますか。


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## Nino83

Flaminius said:


> The right expression is 食べるところ. 食べ場 is non-existent.


Thank you, Flaminius.
I wasn't sure because there is, for example, 飲み場. So the suffix 場 is not so general/productive, is it right? 
In general, when one is not sure if a compound exists, is it better to use a relative clause, avoiding suffixes?


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## Flaminius

To my surprise input of 飲み場 and 食べ場 triggers Google's suggestions for places to drink or eat within 400 metres from my location.  They sound very slangy to my ear, though.

Suffix _-ba_ is very productive.  You may use message boards on the 'Net as a 愚痴の吐き出し場.  Reckless heros in novels may be looking for a 命の捨て場.

I cannot give a thorough explanation of the difference between ところ and 場, but here are some differences.
1. There is a pair with difference in meaning.  行き場のない怒り is an anger that cannot go (more naturally, "find expression" in English).  In contrast, 行くところのない怒り is the anger of the experiencer not having a place to go (typically a next job).  The former is a relative clause and the latter is a general noun clause.
2. Euphony matters.  Since _-ba_ is a small suffix, a short morphology prefers ところ to 場.  Hence, 寝るところ is far more common than *寝場 (to be read _neba_).


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## Nino83

Thank you for your explanation.


Flaminius said:


> 2. Euphony matters.


For example I've found many results for 勉強するところ (for example 学校の図書館はいい勉強するところです) and no results for 勉強し場, even though _benkyō suru_ is pretty long.
Could it be that it is a matter of setted phrases or established, lexicalized, compound nouns? Like, for example, the Latin/Romance suffix _-torium _(_-torio/toio_ in Italian)?
For example we have _laboratorio_ (_lavorare = to work), consultorio (consultare = to consult), dormitorio (dormire = to sleep)_ but there aren't words like _suonatorio, giocatorio_ and so on.


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## frequency

Nino83 said:


> 勉強し場, even though _benkyō suru_ is pretty long.


Yes. Instead, you can say 学び場.

We say 飲み場、餌場、学び場. Note that they are 名詞＋場, You know, the 飲む・学ぶ are nominalised verb there.
食べ in 食べ場 would be as well. Although it's possible as Flam said, it's not a popular way.


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## Flaminius

勉強する is a compound verb consisting of 勉強 and する.  Since 勉強し場 is really cacophonous, I think it's analyzed for euphony's sake as 勉強 + [し + 場].


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## Schokolade

Nino83 said:


> I've found many results for 勉強するところ (for example 学校の図書館はいい勉強するところです)


勉強するところ (or 勉強する場所) is okay, but 学校の図書館はいい勉強するところです sounds unnatural, I'm afraid. You'd say 「勉強するのにいいところ」 or 「勉強するのにいい場所」 rather than 「いい勉強するところ」.



Nino83 said:


> no results for 勉強し場


You can use 勉強場所. 

As in...
「学校の図書館は勉強するのにいいところです。」
「学校の図書館は勉強するのにいい場所です。」
「学校の図書館はいい勉強場所です。」


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## Nino83

Thank you everyone!


Schokolade said:


> but 学校の図書館はいい勉強するところです sounds unnatural


Yes, you're right. I've found it in this site. I've found it strange too because if the adjective refers to _tokoro_ it should be placed after the relative clause (there was a thread about it, here).
If we leave it out, sentences like 学校の図書館は勉強するところです or 学校は勉強するところです should be correct, is it right? 


Schokolade said:


> You can use 勉強場所


Good! 


frequency said:


> Instead, you can say 学び場
> We say 飲み場、餌場、学び場


The fact that one can use 学ぶ but not 勉強する makes me think that the words with 場 are more lexicalized.


Flaminius said:


> I think it's analyzed for euphony's sake as 勉強 + [し + 場]


Oh, I see. For example there is 休み場. So, if a verb has at least three syllables, it doesn't sound so bad. There are also 遊び場, 踊り場.
Anyway it seems to me that the words with 場 (synthetic) are a bit more specific or lexicalied than those with ところ (analytic, relative clause).
Is 遊び場 so general or does it indicate some places where only children, kids, play (those places with swings and slides, for example)?
For example we (I, Flaminius, Schokolade and frequency) have a soccer ball and we are in the street. I ask you if there is a place where we can play. Which one is better?
近くに遊ぶところはある？
近くに遊び場はある？


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## ktdd

Nino83 said:


> The fact that one can use 学ぶ but not 勉強する makes me think that the words with 場 are more lexicalized.


学ぶ is yamato kotoba. 勉強 is Sino-Japanese, it doesn't sit well with 場(ば), is my impression.


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## frequency

ktdd said:


> 学ぶ is yamato kotoba. 勉強 is Sino-Japanese, it doesn't sit well with 場(ば),


I agree with you! I forgot to say that 学び場 can cover a wider range including life-lessons things.


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## karlalou

ktdd said:


> 学ぶ is yamato kotoba. 勉強 is Sino-Japanese, it doesn't sit well with 場(ば), is my impression.


Right. I do feel if it says 「勉強場」, べんきょうじょう sounds and reads better than べんきょうば, but I see, for example, a city uses '勉強場所' that it might be more to do with the length of the reading. Here 場所 itself is combination of _Kun _and _On _readings. Or 売り場 itself doesn't sound very complete, but it is used especially as 食料品売り場 or 化粧品売り場.

勉強／学習／学び*の*場 are also good especially for formal expressions.


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## Flaminius

Nino83 said:


> For example we (I, Flaminius, Schokolade and frequency) have a soccer ball and we are in the street. I ask you if there is a place where we can play. Which one is better?
> 近くに遊ぶところはある？
> 近くに遊び場はある？


I prefer 遊ぶところ.  Four players are not enough for a real match so we are likely looking for any empty space on the street where there are few cars and things that a football can break.  A football or footsal pitch is not expected from the context, although we will be happy if there is one available.

Referents of 遊び場 can be a lot of things.  I found it in texts referring to a bar, gambling pit, brothel, as well as all sorts of empty lots where children play such as an alley, park or on top of a dike.   It may not hold true for all pairs with ところ and 場, but 遊び場 is a place where a certain activity regularly takes place that's considered as playing.  For a place where you are going to extemporenously assign the football function, 遊ぶところ is better.


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## Nino83

Minasan, arigatō gozaimasu!


ktdd said:


> 学ぶ is yamato kotoba. 勉強 is Sino-Japanese





frequency said:


> I agree with you!





karlalou said:


> Here 場所 itself is combination of _Kun _and _On _readings. Or 売り場 itself doesn't sound very complete


Oh, good explanation. Yamato with yamato, kango with kango, even though 場所 seems to be wasei kango (with yutōyomi reading). It seems the Japanese invented a Chinese-sounding word in order to use it with other kango(s). 


Flaminius said:


> I prefer 遊ぶところ. Four players are not enough for a real match so we are likely looking for any empty space on the street where there are few cars and things that a football can break.


Good. So ところ is more general. If we were, for example, 10 (5 vs. 5) what word should I use? If I'm looking for a place in general, like a coutryard or a square, is 遊ぶところ better than 遊び場, even if we're 10?
On the contrary, if I'm looking for a field, フットボール場 (_futtobōru-jō_) is better?


Flaminius said:


> It may not hold true for all pairs with ところ and 場, but 遊び場 is a place where a certain activity regularly takes place that's considered as playing. For a place where you are going to extemporenously assign the football function, 遊ぶところ is better.


This helps a lot. So when one speaks in general and the situation is improvised, _tokoro_ is the best choice, is it right?


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## Flaminius

Nino83 said:


> This helps a lot. So when one speaks in general and the situation is improvised, _tokoro_ is the best choice, is it right?


Yes.

And for accuracy's sake, Sino-Japanese words are sometimes combined with 場 as in 湯治場, 土壇場, 火事場.  "Yamato with yamato, kango with kango" is a general tendency, not a rigid principle.


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## Nino83

Thank you very much, Flaminius!


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