# Indic languages vs English in India - the future?



## terredepomme

I do not have any knowledge of any Indic language but I am fairly interested in the linguistic situation of India.
From what I see there seems to be a dyglossia: English is used in higher education, high-tech jobs, federal politics, and Indic languages in primary education, everyday jobs, regional politics and in homes.
Which saddens me a little bit, because I think Indians should speak their Indic languages in India.
Are there any trends of change in this diglossic situation? Is there any movement towards speaking more Hindi or any other Indic languages in workplaces, in universities, and in literature?
Yes I know that many languages are being spoken in India. But here in Québec, we're just less than 8 million French speakers, and we will generally speak in English to communicate with other Canadian provinces, but we try to conduct every part of our lives in French wherever possible. We have French-speaking universities, almost all Québec authors write in French and not in English etc. So I don't see why the same would be possible for the regional Indic languages which are huge languages with millions of speakers respectively.
So my question is, what would the future in India be like? Will English continue to be the language for "important things" while the Indic languages remain a home language, or will the native languages be valorised and be employed as academic, economic, and professional languages?


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## greatbear

Hi terredepomme, I don't think that you've really got an accurate picture of India: anyway, it's a bit difficult to understand it from the outside, but being an Indian (and who has also lived in France and seen their pride in French), I would try to explain things from my point of view.

First of all, the facts. Many Indians do primary education too in English, and most Indians watch a cricket match in their homes with English commentary (and even if a Hindi commentary option exists). English is very much part of our daily lives, especially of an educated Indian's; it is a part of our home. On the other hand, it is politics that uses Indic languages, and not English. There are a lot of language movements that keep going on in addition, all the name of votes but actually dirty politics, which always keeps politics far from English, seen at the political level (and only at that level, not by the common man) as the coloniser's legacy/imposition (depending on how hardline you are).

We Indians do a lot of code-switching, something absent from, say, a French person's life, even if he or she knows English very well. That is to say, when we speak, we start in Hindi, for example, then we switch to English midway in the sentence, then again Hindi, then again English, and so on. English is interweaved in our mind with the other languages we know: some of the recent Hindi film songs are a prime example of that. Though the song "Give Me Some Sunshine" from the film _3 Idiots_ is not a very good example of code-switching in itself, but still you can hear it to know how much English is also a part of our life, just as Indic languages are. Thus, there is no division as such; rather, just as in everything with India, English only increases our richness.

The thing to remember about India is that it is a super-sponge: we only become richer when an invader comes, when a new religion is brought, when a coloniser comes or when we learn a new language. To bring divisions in India is a very, very difficult job!


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## terredepomme

That's a helpful insight, Greatbear. But what I wanted to know was that would it become possible to use the Indic languages in the formal register, as it is currently possible to use English in the familiar register?


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## tonyspeed

greatbear said:


> To bring divisions in India is a very, very difficult job!



I would disagree with that because India has always been divided. Think about that in the context of the state divisions.
Also think about the struggle of the scheduled castes. Think about the violence in Gujarat. Think about Urdu vs Hindi.
Hindi as a rastriya bhasha and the opposition Tamil Nadu gave. 
The job that has been a chore for modern India is to unite the regional divisions, societal divisions, and the divisions created by the English.

Wikipedia lists a figure like 11% for the percentage of Indians that are English speakers, meaning they can use English
and not only know the alphabet. So I do not see Indic languages dying in India soon. The problem is the status associated
with English, which means that as the middle class grows in India, that 11% will grow along with the middle class.


In my opinion, if you believe business to be the important thing and home life to be unimportant, then the presumption upon which your question 
is built is already flawed. English is the link language of India. It links a linguistically divided country and is the link with the outside world. Therefore,
it will continue to be important in business settings.


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## terredepomme

Thanks for your helpful answer. However



> English is the link language of India. It links a linguistically divided country and is the link with the outside world. Therefore, it will continue to be important in business settings.



This also applies to Québec; it's a linguistically divided country with a French minority, not to mention our only neighbor which is the United States. So the knowledge of English is essential in business settings of Québec as well; but we would never use English for in-province business. The Québec industries will always cater to the local population in French, they will name their companies in French, to show the people that they belong in the Québec society.
Not to mention that most education is done in French(with English as a mandatory subject of course) and the English-speaking institutions are mostly for the Anglophone minorities in the province.
So while English is just as important in Québec, French is used for official purposes whenever possible. Using English for inter-provincial and international communication does not necessarily negate the primacy of the local language. 
And this is not because Québecers are not fluent in English; in fact they are far more so than Indians whose number of English speakers is limited to the educated minority. Almost every Québecer in Montréal is perfectly fluent in English, and they will not hesitate in watching English media or entertainment. But they will certainly not claim that English is their "native language" or that their way of speaking English is "another form of" English. Those who boast their knowledge of English or use it to look "cool" would be disdained by the general population. (Although they do sometimes mix some English expressions as well) They speak it with non-Québecers, but that's it.
And I can't really imagine why the Indic languages would not receive the same sort of respect from Indians, when the number of native speakers of these languages greatly surpasses that of the French speakers of Canada. From what I know there are only three "real" linguistic divisions in India, those of North, South, and the Northeast; the languages in these regions form a mutually intelligible continuum respectively. So I don't see why, say, Hindi can't assume the "official" roles of English at least when it comes to businesses done in Northern India. As for Hindi, we're talking about one of the biggest languages in the world here. 
 Again, I'm making merely wild speculations, because I know that India forms a totally different social context from that of Québec, but I simply hope that someone would enlighten me on this matter.


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## greatbear

terredepomme said:


> That's a helpful insight, Greatbear. But what I wanted to know was that would it become possible to use the Indic languages in the formal register, as it is currently possible to use English in the familiar register?



It is used in the formal register, especially since Independence and markedly so post the liberal reforms of the 1990s: read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_with_official_status_in_India#State_level 

As regarding tonyspeed's comment, I will simply say that he is heavily influenced by Western perceptions of India in my opinion. The dirty political experiments of Gujarat and Tamil Nadu's opposition to Hindi have already failed; Hindi is indeed the uniting language of India today, and it is the only language understood all over India at least to some extent. It is of course understood by many, many more people than is English, and it is very well understood in the South, especially since the Sanskrit-derived vocabulary does not change. Also, now parents even in Tamil Nadu prefer their children to take up Hindi as second or third language; and even for the uneducated, if he's doing business, he has to understand and speak Hindi, or else limit his business to his state. The scheduled castes is again a political term; in modern Indian society, there is no caste division anyway. Just like in the West, we have now more and more of capital-based division, instead.

Also, to again come back to you, terredepomme, you cannot compare the French situation with Indic languages, simply because India absorbs everything and adapts it to herself: we do not say "we are like this, and we won't change, and we are not bothered": we love learning and absorbing, and we keep evolving. If culture means staticness, then we are losing our culture; I think cultures evolve, they are dynamic, and as long as we can have both the Indic languages and English more and more, everywhere, we are only enriching ourselves.


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## terredepomme

> Also, to again come back to you, terredepomme, you cannot compare the French situation with Indic languages, simply because India absorbs everything and adapts it to herself: we do not say "we are like this, and we won't change, and we are not bothered": we love learning and absorbing, and we keep evolving. If culture means staticness, then we are losing our culture; I think cultures evolve, they are dynamic, and as long as we can have both the Indic languages and English more and more, everywhere, we are only enriching ourselves.


Yes, I don't see absorbing elements in English to Indic languages as a problem, but isn't using English entirely (in formal settings) a bit different matter? I know that Indians use their own version of English with Indic elements, but shouldn't it be more like using Indic languages with English elements? I fear that Indians, instead of absorbing English, are rather being absorbed to English. But I really hope my fear is just my imagination.


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## greatbear

I do think that it's your imagination, considering especially that a wider segment of Indians speak Hindi now than say twenty years back. I think all languages, including English, are thriving: the multilinguality of Indians is expanding more and more. There are some Indic languages that have suffered, of course, especially Urdu, since Hindi has moved now beyond north India.


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## terredepomme

> There are some Indic languages that have suffered, of course, especially Urdu, since Hindi has moved now beyond north India.


But aren't they basically the same languages? Maybe Urdu is being more "Hindi-cised"... but would that be suffering as a language per se? I don't speak any of them so I might be wrong.


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## tonyspeed

greatbear said:


> I will simply say that he is heavily influenced by Western perceptions of India in my opinion.




Any time someone says "my country cannot be divided", it is political propaganda - plain and simple. The same can be said of China, America etc.. The reality is often quite different without jingoistic and/or fundementalist rose-coloured glasses on. The common retort is then, "those are western views". 


Earth of the Apple, you have to realise the position India is in. It is emerging as a world power but can barely take care of its own people. France has already been a power and country of influence in its own right. Therefore, France can worry about luxuries such as keeping its own language in the forefront. Whereas India is only worrying about getting to the point of France, by hook or by crook. Using English has proved very advantageous for India as a tool. It cuts out the money and infrastructure needed for translators and translations. Whether we like it or not, English is THE international language at the moment. The days of several international languages has passed as English has surpassed all other languages in importance. The path to modernity therefore for India is therefore through English. 

If you understand that many Indians know 2 or 3 languages or more, then you will understand there is no danger to Hindi. However to understand the current situation as it exists in India, you have to know Indian history. The situation that exists with English today as the premeir language of education has existed in India as far back as we are aware of. Before English the language of status was Persian. Looking further back the  language of status was Sanskrit. The idea that different people at different levels of society speak different languages is a very Indian idea. We have records of there being a 3 or 4 level division in laguage based on one's level in society at points in Indian history in certain localities.


As far as Hindi and Urdu go, the grammar is basically the same. At a high level of language, the level of which you are speaking, much of the vocabulary is completely different.


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## terredepomme

> Earth of the Apple, you have to realise the position India is in. It is  emerging as a world power but can barely take care of its own people.  France has already been a power and country of influence in its own  right. Therefore, France can worry about luxuries such as keeping its  own language in the forefront. Whereas India is only worrying about  getting to the point of France, by hook or by crook.


I understand that. My question was that if in the future India becomes a developed country and can "afford" to promote its Indic languages, will the situations change.



> The situation that exists with English today as the premeir language of  education has existed in India as far back as we are aware of. Before  English the language of status was Persian. Looking further back the   language of status was Sanskrit. The idea that different people at  different levels of society speak different languages is a very Indian  idea.


Well I don't think that is particularly an Indian phenomenon; for Europe it was Latin and Greek, for East Asia it was classical Chinese, etc. But using the mother tongues as the medium of education is a modern trend that almost every nation followed. But, to my knowledge, India could not experience this transition because of her colonial history. The question is that will she one day make that transition? Will we be able to see universities that gives lecture in Tamil, thesis written in Hindi, or academic literature in Bengali, not only in fields related to Indian studies but in all other academic fields as well?


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## ihaveacomputer

terredepomme said:


> Will we be able to see universities that gives lecture in Tamil, thesis written in Hindi, or academic literature in Bengali, not only in fields related to Indian studies but in all other academic fields as well?




This is already happening. The real question is if cutting edge research will be done in these languages. As it stands now, there is little produced in the Indo-Aryan languages which then ends up being translated and studied world over. I myself just spent a year at Punjabi University in Patiala, where students study subjects like history, economics, religious studies and linguistics completely in Punjabi. Their textbooks are in Punjabi, as well, though the quality isn't always the best. Sometimes books in Hindi are part of the reading list, and sometimes books in English, as well. The bulk of education is still Punjabi-medium, however. This doesn't apply for all subjects; you can imagine the situation in law or science programs.

Now, this university is considered mid-tier. It's great that Punjabi is used, but it's not the same as looking at, say, Delhi University, or Jawaharlal Nehru University. These are considered to be high-tier in the humanities and social sciences, but the majority of their quality stuff is published in English. I'd love to see the rise of world-class research institutions operating entirely in languages native to India, but it probably isn't going to happen for a long, long time.


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## greatbear

tonyspeed said:


> Any time someone says "my country cannot be divided", it is political propaganda - plain and simple. The same can be said of China, America etc.. The reality is often quite different without jingoistic and/or fundementalist rose-coloured glasses on. The common retort is then, "those are western views".
> 
> 
> Earth of the Apple, you have to realise the position India is in. It is emerging as a world power but can barely take care of its own people. France has already been a power and country of influence in its own right. Therefore, France can worry about luxuries such as keeping its own language in the forefront. Whereas India is only worrying about getting to the point of France, by hook or by crook. Using English has proved very advantageous for India as a tool. It cuts out the money and infrastructure needed for translators and translations. Whether we like it or not, English is THE international language at the moment. The days of several international languages has passed as English has surpassed all other languages in importance. The path to modernity therefore for India is therefore through English.



India has been a world power for easily thousands of years; France has not been a world power for more than 200 years. And yet India never attempted to "keep" its language: your argument is deeply flawed, since it is absorbing and learning another language that is enriching and further consolidating power, rather than keeping your language. As Steiner says, a language is another window to the world. If France has taken such luxuries just because it's recently powerful, then no wonder it is going down fast: one has to evolve with the times.
English was introduced by the British across its length and breadth so that they can rule over India easier and better; and that is why it is there. It is not some tool brought into India just to get onto the world stage. Japan has been a huge economic power without speaking English; China also hasn't really bothered about English. To become a powerful nation on the world stage, you need to have strong capitalists, not English.
I didn't say "my country can't be divided": I said India can't be divided; I don't think you get the difference. The concept of "country" was again brought by the British to India; India is a culture foremost, with its roots stretching as far back as to the Vedas, Buddhism, and, older, the Indus Valley Civilisation, the first sophisticated civilisation of the world. And that culture has been transmitted over all these thousands of years, it has not been lost - that is the marvel of it. Just similarly, Europe can't be really divided, because standing on ancient Greek and Roman civilisations and their legacies, Europe is another culture. The biggest mistake of communism was that it tried to divide Europe: that rather than the ideology was the reason for communism's downfall in Europe.


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## souminwé

India cannot be divided? Pakistan and Bangladesh don’t agree.
I'm going to have to say your argument is deeply flawed, gb. First you say France is going down because it is too stubborn to change, and then you say Japan and China have not needed English to rise in the world.
India’s language situation today is shaped not only be its colonial past, but its desperate state in the present. Hindi is not a developed language – it has not been the language of science and knowledge as French has been. 200 years of power and influence are all that France has needed to maintain a strong and developed language – after all, almost every European aristocrat and intellectual could speak French at one time. 
As far as speaking English is concerned, what is congruent with what modern Indians what?:
Dubai? The UK? America?
Who needs to learn Hindi – you’re not getting a job in this country, your kids could grow up in a better country. Learn English.
You may be well off enough that this is not your mindset, but it is the mindset of thousands. Unlike the French, a large amount of Indians aren't content with the situation in their own country.


Even in the modern world, Hindi is being left behind. Unlike European  languages which are so profoundly used on the internet, Hindi lacks a  presence on the internet in any significant way.

Hindi is in no way “extra-absorbent” – and neither is Indian culture for that matter – than any other language. Hindi has merely been conquered by foreigners. It is in a similar state to English under the Normans – the language of the commoners, and no good for business, royal affairs or anything. And look at English today – the most Latinate Germanic language of the lot. This exactly what is happening to Hindi. No one knows formal Hindi, no one speaks formal Hindi and it isn't useful for anything. It is rapidly Anglicising.


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## terredepomme

> Hindi is not a developed language – it has not been the language of science and knowledge as French has been.


Thank you for your opinion, souminwé. A question now arises: does Hindi have the potential to be an academic, professional language in the future? I mean it IS one of the biggest languages in the world, and although quite different from Sanskrit, it shares much in common with a great ancient language that was once the Latin of South Asia. So will Indians one day make Hindi a "developed" language good for business, academics and internet? As you have pointed out, souminwé, English was also a language without prestige and of the "commons" - but it eventually transformed into a language of universities and governments. Can Hindi go through the same transformation, given that it will, as greatbear has confirmed, also absorb influences from English--and other Indic languages--as did English with its French influence?


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## greatbear

souminwé said:


> India cannot be divided? Pakistan and Bangladesh don’t agree.
> I'm going to have to say your argument is deeply flawed, gb. First you say France is going down because it is too stubborn to change, and then you say Japan and China have not needed English to rise in the world.



The creation of those artificial, national boundaries didn't change the Indian subcontinent's culture, which is what I mean by India; there is not much difference between a Pakistani common man and how he speaks, what he eats, how he lives, etc., and an Indian common man. Even less so between East Bengal and West Bengal.

Japan and China have not needed English to rise in the world, but that does not mean they are rigid like the French: most importantly, they have travelled and settled in different parts of the world; they adapt. The same is the case with Indian communities. I can't say the same thing about the French, even if they are found in Quebec or certain places in Africa.

The question was can Indic languages develop to an extent that they become the preferred language for their speakers in matters of higher research, and so on. Not that whether they are. I believe with the huge output in English, it is bound to remain the numero uno language, but Hindi in particular may develop a lot more now that more and more people speak Hindi (how did you say "falling behind?" All those rich, top-shot guys with fluent English skills and those students of Jawaharlal Nehru University in Delhi speak Hindi all the time!). However, I don't think it would ever become what French is to the French, simply because we are not rigid about what is "ours" and what is not.


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## ihaveacomputer

terredepomme said:


> Thank you for your opinion, souminwé. A question now arises: does Hindi have the potential to be an academic, professional language in the future? I mean it IS one of the biggest languages in the world, and although quite different from Sanskrit, it derives from a great ancient language that was once the Latin of South Asia. So will Indians one day make Hindi a "developed" language good for business, academics and internet? As you have pointed out, souminwé, English was also a language without prestige and of the "commons" - but it eventually transformed into a language of universities and governments. Can Hindi go through the same transformation, given that it will, as greatbear has confirmed, also absorb influences from English--and other Indic languages--as did English with its French influence?



Most definitely. Contrary to what many others on this forum have previously stated, Standard Hindi is not a lifeless husk of a language which finds support only amongst India's bureaucrats. It's alive and thriving as a literary language, and I challenge anyone who disagrees to leave major urban centres and interact with the elite from Rajasthan through Bihar. All of the vocabulary which needs to be used for official purposes does indeed exist, but due to a lack of education and the presence of English, these words are unused by both the common man and many of the urban educated elites who themselves did the majority (or all) of their schooling in English.

Hindi will stabilise as soon as the quality of mass education rises. The sheer number of Hindi speakers is enough to carry that momentum forward once they begin to access education. What remains to be seen is _*how*_ the language will stabilise. I'm of the opinion that the current standard will probably be modified, and ideology will be cast aside when it results in the attempt to displace well established Perso-Arabic words with Sanskritic ones. This just isn't practical. I also think that in the sciences, there will be the acceptance of some (Latin/Greek -> English) loans. It's simply impractical to use Sanskrit to rename every bone in the human body, for example. What hopefully will be opposed in formal written Hindi is allowing English syntax to corrupt Hindi's, and totally inappropriate use of English loans. The exact nature of the latter point will be worked out democratically by hundreds of thousands of writers across the country.

Diglossia is unattractive, but not impossible to maintain. See the position of Modern Standard Arabic vs. the spoken dialects. The question is if Hindi speakers want to accept continued diglossia, or "update" the standard with thousands upon thousands of English words. I am a big supporter of the former option, since the diglossic distance can actually be reduced with proper education. It's only a lexical issue, meaning the gap is much smaller than in the previously cited example of Arabic. See the drastic transformation of Turkish since Ataturk's reforms as an example of how education can have a massive impact on how people choose to speak.

My position is an ideological one. Were I alive 100 years ago, I would have been on the side of continued use of Urdu as a literary standard. This didn't happen, and Hindi now exists as a widely-used standard in its own right, one which connects the language to its Sanskritic heritage in a beautiful* way. I happen to think this link should be maintained. If the masses disagree, then history will have its way, and Hindi will Anglicise.


* = I'm in the minority by using this adjective, without doubt.


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## rahulbemba

terredepomme said:


> I do not have any knowledge of any Indic language but I am fairly interested in the linguistic situation of India.
> From what I see there seems to be a dyglossia: English is used in higher education, high-tech jobs, federal politics, and Indic languages in primary education, everyday jobs, regional politics and in homes.
> Which saddens me a little bit, because I think Indians should speak their Indic languages in India.
> Are there any trends of change in this diglossic situation? Is there any movement towards speaking more Hindi or any other Indic languages in workplaces, in universities, and in literature?
> Yes I know that many languages are being spoken in India. But here in Québec, we're just less than 8 million French speakers, and we will generally speak in English to communicate with other Canadian provinces, but we try to conduct every part of our lives in French wherever possible. We have French-speaking universities, almost all Québec authors write in French and not in English etc. So I don't see why the same would be possible for the regional Indic languages which are huge languages with millions of speakers respectively.
> So my question is, what would the future in India be like? Will English continue to be the language for "important things" while the Indic languages remain a home language, or will the native languages be valorised and be employed as academic, economic, and professional languages?



My opinion on this topic: 

First of all, let me request you to use “Indian” instead of “Indic” which I find weird, though popular on this forum because of constant usage. We Indians don’t see anything wrong or offensive if you call us Indians in writing, unless offense explicitly meant in some other way.

Without doubt, English is the language of Higher Education in India. We don’t have engineering and medical education, even an MBA where one can do full course in any other language. That is because of the historical developments.

But I think you are seeing a little pessimistic view of the things while realities are not so gloomy. Most Indians use their mother tongue to communicate in their family, with their friends, or even with their colleagues at work; be they be working with MNCs or any global corporation at any level. But as you said, such communications are “informal”, while the educated masses would use English in “formal” places like conferences and seminars or in client-calls. I see no harm in it.

I can go on, but will try to conclude fast. The way I find it after living in India all my life in different parts all across the country, I think the major regional languages are not going to die anytime. It would be true for languages like Hindi, Gujarati, Marathi, Tamil, Telugu – these languages will never die because these are connected to the “core” of the culture and psyche of the masses. So a demise is “never” going to happen.

The situation about higher education will always remain so, I think, because of the growth “path” we have chosen. I talk to foreign clients daily and without English our whole business unit or entire company just couldn’t work. And we are following a path towards globalization, where we Indians plan to move towards better future riding on our higher education and technical skills, which are all possible to “sell” only because of English.

So local languages will never die. And for languages like Sanskrit, which is practically not in conversations now, I think it will also live “forever” because all our major Hindu scriptures are in Sanskrit and we are “never” going to lose that wisdom. I read Hindu scriptures, in Sanskrit with English or Hindi translations, and for the sake of survival, even Sanskrit is never going to die.

Just like India has survived hundreds of years of Islamic invasion and British rule, our major languages will survive always, because all these things are connected to the “core” of the hearts of our nation.


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## rahulbemba

greatbear said:


> I believe with the huge output in English, it is bound to remain the numero uno language, but Hindi in particular may develop a lot more now that more and more people speak Hindi (how did you say "falling behind?" All those rich, top-shot guys with fluent English skills and those students of Jawaharlal Nehru University in Delhi speak Hindi all the time!). However, I don't think it would ever become what French is to the French, simply because we are not rigid about what is "ours" and what is not.



True. I agree with this. Outsiders see Indians speaking in English in public places or at home in the presence of outsiders and may think that they don't speak Hindi or their mother tongue. But the reality is different. Because of our deep-rooted culture, I think an Indian will always speak at heart in his/her mother tongue, no matter after 100 or 500 years. Some languages like Hindi have such a quality, that our English is called Hinglish now, not that Hindi is called Hinglish.


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## rahulbemba

.........



souminwé said:


> Hindi is not a developed language – it has not been the language of science and knowledge as French has been.



Change your parameters for measurement and you shall see a different picture. If you think only media of "Western Education" can be "developed language", the of course only Western languages remain developed languages. A stupid logic. 



souminwé said:


> Even in the modern world, Hindi is being left behind. Unlike European  languages which are so profoundly used on the internet, Hindi lacks a  presence on the internet in any significant way.



It is because in a society like Indian, we don't go to internet to talk to our parents and kids  We are closely knit society and don't need internet for time pass or to catch local some girls for dating - which your "internet" sites provide popularly. 



souminwé said:


> Hindi is in no way “extra-absorbent” – and neither is Indian culture for that matter – than any other language. Hindi has merely been conquered by foreigners.



Ok, so this is your verdict  But as I said, English in India is called Hinglish, not that Hindi is called Hinglish. If you apply logic you will see who won over which? 



souminwé said:


> It is in a similar state to English under the Normans – the language of the commoners, and no good for business, royal affairs or anything.



A very wrong perception. Did you hear Amitabh Bachchan speaking in Hindi? Or Arun Jaitley speaking in what you call so called "formal Hindi"? Hindi has a touch of all the good things you fear it doesn't have. 

/ Since you have written a lot of hard words in your post, I hope you will also have the heart to digest some hard replies too.


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## Qureshpor

rahulbemba said:


> .....
> 
> It is because in a society like Indian, we don't go to internet to talk to our parents and kids  We are closely knit society and don't need internet for time pass or to catch local some girls for dating - which your "internet" sites provide popularly.
> 
> A sweeping, stereotypical and racist statement! What are you doing on the internet posting these comments when you should be socialising within your "closely knit society"


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## greatbear

rahulbemba said:


> True. I agree with this. Outsiders see Indians speaking in English in public places or at home in the presence of outsiders and may think that they don't speak Hindi or their mother tongue. But the reality is different. Because of our deep-rooted culture, I think an Indian will always speak at heart in his/her mother tongue, no matter after 100 or 500 years. Some languages like Hindi have such a quality, that our English is called Hinglish now, not that Hindi is called Hinglish.



I hope that you stop agreeing with me, because you misunderstand people agreeing to be with what you are saying and then proceed to your deeply flawed arguments (Hinglish? I could die of laughter!). I am an Indian and have grown up there, and only Hindi is spoken in my family, yet it is English that is close to my heart, not Hindi; I think in English, not Hindi: stop making assumptions about every Indian!



rahulbemba said:


> It is because in a society like Indian, we don't go to internet to talk to our parents and kids   We are closely knit society and don't need internet for time pass or to  catch local some girls for dating - which your "internet" sites provide  popularly.



Indians are some of the heaviest users of porn sites in the world, and you could go to any Indian cyber cafe. Period.


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## rahulbemba

QURESHPOR / What are you doing on the internet posting these comments when you should be socialising within your "closely knit society"/

You know the answer. I am protecting my mother tongue Hindi from being shown in the wrong light by some Urdu-or-other-chauvinists  I hope you got your answer and would now stop making personal comments.

greatbear / Hinglish? I could die of laughter!. I am an Indian and have grown up there, and only Hindi is spoken in my family, yet it is English that is close to my heart, not Hindi; I think in English, not Hindi: stop making assumptions about every Indian!/

If you die of laughter, please don't blame me  Secondly, I was neither talking about your family, nor about each and every Indian. If you want to educate yourself about "Hinglish" please google search.

*Hinglish is what most Indians speak, because their English is so cluttered with Hindi words, pronunciations and nuances that it can neither be totally called English nor Hindi.
* 
*But when it comes the other way, no matter how many English words you mix with Hindi, it is still called Hindi.
* 
*I used this phenomenon as a proof that because of popularization of English, it is English which is a loser and not Hindi. *Hindi will remain forever and there are 0% chances of any extinction, which I explained in my previous comments.


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## greatbear

No; I don't think you ever understand the argument, Rahul; you see red everywhere.

If you could show me even one paragraph in Hindi on quantum mechanics on Wikipedia, we all would be greatly happy: we were not talking about in which language Indians go see porn, ok?
And if you are so concerned about Hindi, start contributing in your beloved language to sites like Wiki, but stop seeing red here and let people continue with their serious and sensible arguments.


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## JaiHind

greatbear said:


> If you could show me even one paragraph in Hindi on quantum mechanics on Wikipedia, we all would be greatly happy.



मेरे कुछ बंधुओं ने हिंदी भाषा से स्नातक कि परीक्षा उत्तीर्ण की है, और वह सब जानते हैं इन सिद्धांतों को. मै उनसे आग्रह करूँगा कि कुछ समय विकिपीडिया के हिंदी रचनाओं को बढ़ाने पर बिताएं. ये बहुत आवश्यक है. 

क्या आपने शुरुआत की है ?


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## greatbear

JaiHind said:


> मेरे कुछ बंधुओं ने हिंदी भाषा से स्नातक कि परीक्षा उत्तीर्ण की है, और वह सब जानते हैं इन सिद्धांतों को. मै उनसे आग्रह करूँगा कि कुछ समय विकिपीडिया के हिंदी रचनाओं को बढ़ाने पर बिताएं. ये बहुत आवश्यक है.
> 
> क्या आपने शुरुआत की है ?



I think you mean "wikipedia ki" and not "wikipedia ke". Great to hear; even if entries are there in the unnatural and incomprehensible Hindi you use, there will be something at least.
Did I say that I am bothered about Hindi's "status"? I don't think so, so the question if I am doing anything is futile.


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## ihaveacomputer

Greatbear, I don't think it's fair to dismiss an article written about quantum mechanics in Shuddh Hindi as being unnatural and incomprehensible. I mean, if the article is to be written in Hindi, how else would it be written? Do you propose using English words written in devanagari?

I don't mean to get personal, and please don't interpret this comment as being insulting, but many seem to talk about Hindi needing to be developed whilst simultaneously dismissing Shuddh Hindi. On the other hand, if some of these people argue that Hindi is fine as it is, minus the Shuddh stuff, they're at a loss as to explain how one would write an article like "quantum mechanics". Ultimately, these words exist; you just aren't educated in their use. There's nothing to be ashamed of here, in that being educated in a language is a process which takes many years; we aren't born capable of deciphering higher literature. Is it really fair to pass judgement when you're in such a position, however?

Perhaps I'm making too many assumptions and am putting words in your mouth. How would you propose such an article be written? If it cannot be done, what kinds of developments would you like to see in order to make this possible? I ask with a genuine spirit of curiosity, and am not looking to win a debate or insult anyone. Please, I'm really quite eager to read your response.


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## greatbear

I understand what you are saying, ihaveacomputer.

First of all, I have no problems with literature being available in so-called Shuddh Hindi; at least, there will be something, as I said. What I was meaning to say in that earlier post was about the tendency to obstinately use words like "avashyak" instead of "zaroori": I am not saying that one couldn't or shouldn't use "avashyak" but if everything comes in that flavour, which I persist in calling as "unnatural", then it is more a loss to Hindi than gain (assuming there are people interested in reading a quantum mechanics entry in Hindi).
I have no qualms about personal preferences; I myself use words like "pranali" in my day-to-day Hindi. But something written for the masses has to be understood by the widest section of people, rather then being a Trojan horse for someone's dirty politics. I assume if there's an article on quantum mechanics in Hindi, then it is for those who can understand the topic (better) through a language they are at most ease with, and not for teaching Hindi!


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