# сочинский Арбат



## Boyar

The shortest way to say this in English would be _Sochi's Arbat_ what seems inconprehensible to a foreign visitor. Here is an example:

...начать мы просто обязаны были с места, которое задолго до своего открытия снискало славу центра притяжения самых модных и красивых. Внешне кофейня, расположившаяся *на сочинском Арбате*, действительно хороша. (source)

Other examples of this kind are _московский Монмартр, нижегородский Невский проспект_, etc.. What could be a general way to deal with such expressions?

Looking forward to your suggestions


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## Enquiring Mind

Hi Boyar, looking at the question from a bird's-eye perspective, in English we _*tend not to*_ use the "possessive" 's much in English for places. Note: I'm not saying we *don't* use it, I'm saying that when you have a place-name adjective like_ сочинский, московский _and so on, it will often be unnatural style to automatically reach for Sochi*'s* or Moscow*'s*. _In Sochi_, _in Moscow _will always be right. This _place-name apostophe + s (_where it's unnecesssary), in fact, can often be one of the give-away markers that tells an experienced reader that the text was not written or translated by an English native speaker.

In your specific context, we don't need to mention Sochi at all, because the location has already been clearly established several times in the reader's mind. The website is described as _интернет-журнал о Сочи, _the piece starts with_ Кофейные локации появляются в Сочи как грибы после дождя. _Then we have_ Улицы курорта стремительно покоряют яркие бумажные стаканчики _and the_ курорт _is clearly Sochi. Then we are reminded by _Разумеется, начать мы просто обязаны были с места, которое задолго до своего открытия снискало славу центра притяжения самых модных и красивых _that we are in Sochi. To then say _on Sochi's Arbat _sounds really out of place, and would be edited out here by a competent editor. We know we're in Sochi, no other location has been mentioned.

So - short answer: "on the Arbat" (no mention of Sochi is required). At a pinch, if you think the Russian reader is going to think we've suddenly moved to Moscow, you could say "on the Arbat here", but it's not necessary (for the English reader), in my view.



> What could be a general way to deal with such expressions?


 The key issue, as always, is that context is king. If the location is already clearly established, leave out the place name. If it's the first mention, then the 's form is ok.


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## Awwal12

The name Arbat was used figuratively here, there is no such street in Sochi (much like there is no Monmartre in Moscow, etc.). And that's exactly the problem.


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## Q-cumber

Enquiring Mind said:


> Hi Boyar, looking at the question from a bird's-eye perspective, in English we _*tend not to*_ use the "possessive" 's much in English for places. Note: I'm not saying we *don't* use it, I'm saying that when you have a place-name adjective like_ сочинский, московский _and so on, it will often be unnatural style to automatically reach for Sochi*'s* or Moscow*'s*. _In Sochi_, _in Moscow _will always be right. This _place-name apostophe + s (_where it's unnecesssary), in fact, can often be one of the give-away markers that tells an experienced reader that the text was not written or translated by an English native speaker.
> 
> In your specific context, we don't need to mention Sochi at all, because the location has already been clearly established several times in the reader's mind. The website is described as _интернет-журнал о Сочи, _the piece starts with_ Кофейные локации появляются в Сочи как грибы после дождя. _Then we have_ Улицы курорта стремительно покоряют яркие бумажные стаканчики _and the_ курорт _is clearly Sochi. Then we are reminded by _Разумеется, начать мы просто обязаны были с места, которое задолго до своего открытия снискало славу центра притяжения самых модных и красивых _that we are in Sochi. To then say _on Sochi's Arbat _sounds really out of place, and would be edited out here by a competent editor. We know we're in Sochi, no other location has been mentioned.
> 
> So - short answer - *here*: "on the Arbat" (no mention of Sochi is required).


Thanks for the useful information. The problem is that 'Arbat' here isn't  a name of a street in Sochi. This is some kind of allegory. Сочинский Арбат is a place that reminds the famous street in Moscow.


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## Enquiring Mind

Thanks Awwal and Q, I haven't been there. We evidently didn't get enough context in the question then. 

In that case "In Sochi's equivalent of the Arbat ...", "in Sochi's answer to the Arbat ...", "in what passes for the Arbat in Sochi ...".


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## Maroseika

Since Arbat is not known in the world as well as Montmartre, I think better not to mentionn it at all and use description. Something like "pedestrian area with street souvenirs trading / street cultural attractions"  (or what's else meant by сочинский Арбат).


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## Drink

I have to disagree with Enquiring Mind here. While pssessives might not be common in place _names_, they are common in place _descriptions_ (like "London's West End"). Thus, I think "Sochi's Arbat" is perfectly fine as long as the reader knows what "Arbat" is, which is unlikely for the average English speaking reader if it had not been mentioned before.


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## Kirill V.

I wonder whether "glamorous" or other adjective like that could be used with "street" to convey the idea, if one wants to avoid refernce to Arbat which may indeed be unfamiliar to a foreign visitor:
_Sochi's most glamorous street_

I'm just guessing


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## Drink

Something like "Sochi's equivalent of Moscow's [adjective] Arbat" would be fine too.


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## Boyar

Ah! so many great comments 

Special thanks to *Enquiring Mind* for commenting on the use of possessive _'s_! I wish I'd been as thoughtful as you when I was writing my post. In fact, the main difficulty with the above expression is that few non-Russian visitors know that Arbat Street exists.

So, Arbat is a cool pedestrian street in Moscow with vibrant storefront façades, flourishing souvenir trade, live music, etc. Nowadays, its name became a popular alias for pedestrian streets or areas thoughout Russia and in Russian-speaking communities abroad:

Улица Авоту - рижский Арбат (riga.lv)

Купить недвижимость на «пражском Арбате» не удастся ни за какие деньги. Просто потому, что «пражский Арбат» - это Карлов мост на реке Влтаве. (zagrandom.ru)

But explaining _сочинский Арбат_ to a foreigner in a succinct way is not an easy job that's why I posted my question. I would prefer to use





Enquiring Mind said:


> "in what passes for the Arbat in Sochi ..."


but again, who knows that street in Moscow?! New-York's Broadway would do much better I guess.


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## rusita preciosa

Are you asking for a good replacement for Arbat, so that broader international audience understands the point? In that case let us know who the audience is (Americans? Europeans?...).

If it is 'foreigners' overall, I'd vote for Montmartre or Portobello Road. Broadway is not a pedestrian street with street artists, musicians and outdoor touristy knick-knacks stalls. 

I suggest you ask the question in Culture cafe, it has good international representation, they would be able to give you better perspective.


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## Drink

As an American who has never spent much time in London or Paris, I've never heard of Montmartre or Portobello Road. But I think it would be appropriate to say something like "Sochi's equivalent of Moscow's Arbat or Paris's Monmartre". If you give a brief description afterwards, it won't really matter whether the reader is familiar with either of them. Meanwhile, for readers who are familiar with one or both of them, it would be a great comparison.


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## Slavianophil

I would agree with Drink. Using names such as Arbat gives _couleur locale_ which I, for one, like very much when reading about other countries. And a brief description would, of course, be useful. 

As for 'international audience' being unfamiliar with Arbat - millions of foreign tourists and various delegations visit Moscow and Arbat figures high on the tourist menu. There are also plenty of expats living in the city. I believe quite a few people all over the world have seen Arbat or heard about it.


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## Rosett

"Сочинский Арбат" is a pretentious name, heavy inflated by the local real estate marketing. Most of the references give it in quotes and/or add "так называемый". The entire New Sochi is now like Нью-Васюки after the Interplanetary Chess Congress, and there's nothing sacred or unparalleled like Arbat; it's now just a fashionable commercial pedestrian street with no history behind. It used to be Навагинская and was scrambled to convert into what everyone can see now just before the Olympics opening.
Навагинская почти за 2 месяца превратилась в сочинский Арбат
29.11.2013 16:31. Реконструкция одной из центральных улиц практически завершена.
I'd translate it in the given context just as "Sochi's fashionable Promenade."


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## Drink

The topic here is how to translate "сочинский Арбат", not whether "сочинский Арбат" is an appropriate name.


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## Rosett

Drink said:


> The topic here is how to translate "сочинский Арбат", not whether "сочинский Арбат" is an appropriate name.


You won't get it right otherwsie.


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## Q-cumber

rusita preciosa said:


> Are you asking for a good replacement for Arbat, so that broader international audience understands the point? In that case let us know who the audience is (Americans? Europeans?...).
> 
> If it is 'foreigners' overall, I'd vote for Montmartre or Portobello Road. Broadway is not a pedestrian street with street artists, musicians and outdoor touristy knick-knacks stalls.
> 
> I suggest you ask the question in Culture cafe, it has good international representation, they would be able to give you better perspective.


I was also thinking on the variant with Montmartre.


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## Rosett

Q-cumber said:


> I was also thinking on the variant with Montmartre.


You may want to check it out here:
Пешеходная улица Навагинская в городе Сочи
and here:
A Paris Guide: A Walk Through Montmartre

It's a kind of nothing in common, and with the Arbat, too.


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## Boyar

Terrific discussion and insights! Thanks so much to all involved 



Drink said:


> I think it would be appropriate to say something like "Sochi's equivalent of Moscow's Arbat or Paris's Monmartre". If you give a brief description afterwards, it won't really matter whether the reader is familiar with either of them.


Thank you, *Drink*, for your inspiring suggestion that encouraged me to do my own search on the web:

If Fifth Avenue is the New York _equivalent_ of London's Bond Street, what is the New York equivalent of London's Oxford Street? (funtrivia.com)

The ban on new bars downtown has been in place since 2003, prompted by concerns at the time that a string of new night spots popping up along Jefferson Street was turning the area into a _local version_ of Bourbon Street. (theadvocate.com)

_So ... the coffee-house is located in what is *a local version of the fashionable Arbat Street in Moscow*..._

Another option could come from the examples below:

New York City had _its own version_ of Chestnut Street, but it was a far less busy place for most of the eighteenth century. (gilderlehrman.org)
(NY's Wall Street is compared here to Chestnut Street in Philadelphia)

The rest of us live in a suburb, _our own version_ of "Elm Street." (urbansurvivalusa.com)


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