# Is it offensive to allude to someone "looking Jewish"?



## girloncrack

A friend of mine is Israeli, and the other day he told me that someone we both know is Jewish. I said, "Oh I guess I can see that". Instantly, he retorted: "What? Why, because he has a big nose?" I said, "Well, I guess that's part of it. He just looks kind of Jewish". 

So then we got into this huge argument in which my friend insisted that there is no "Jewish look" because being Jewish is a religion not an ethnicity. I said that I can see his point, except that unlike Christianity and other religions, being Jewish is defined primarily through bloodlines. I would guess that of those who convert to Judaism, a vast majority of them do so because of marriage, rather than say the millions of indigenous peoples who have been converted to christianity over the last many centuries (If anyone has statistics on this, I'd welcome them). So I feel that it's only reasonable to acknowledge that while there are Jewish people who look completely different from each other, there are also a whole lot that look similar. 

My friend's point of view is that it is completely racist to say anything about someone appearing to be Jewish, particularly because of their big nose. He keeps bringing up the Holocaust and all of the propoganda that was distributed by the Nazis stereotyping Jews as, among other things, having big noses. He says that if I were to say anything about a Jewish nose to a Jew - particularly to an Israeli - that they would be completely offended. While I understand that it can be a sensitive stereotype, such as black people having big lips or Asians having slanty eyes (I am one of the latter), I also think that it's important that people not just hide from anything that could be used to generalize. Generalizations in and of themselves are not inherently bad, it's how you use them. I am not about to get mad at someone for pointing out that I have slanty eyes, unless I sense that it was intended as a derogatory remark, because let's face it: it's true.

Then recently, I was talking to another Israeli who thought it was completely ridiculous to be offended by the idea that Jewish people tend to have big noses. He said that he's damn proud of his big Jewish nose...

So my question is this: 
For those of you who are Jewish out there, 1. do you think it's absurd to think that there is such a thing as someone "looking Jewish", and if NOT 2. do you think it's offensive to think that part of that Jewish look is a big nose?

As an aside, I'd just like to mention that I am posting this here strictly because I am very interested to know what people think. I know this is a friendly and respectful forum, but just in case: no arguing please!! Everyone is entitled to their point of view!


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## danielfranco

I try to simplify many things (out of angst and ennui, mainly), and one of the things I like to keep simple is describing people, even to myself. I often think to myself: that's the lady that works in the flowershop, that's the guy I see often at bingo, that's the kid that keeps grinding his skateboard on my garden wall, etc., instead of thinking of them as the fat lady with tinted hair, the scrawny guy with big ears, and the lanky unwashed kid. I could even go as far as to remind myself of those people according to their particular shade of skin color, the epicanthic fold of their eyelids, or the relative size of appendages like noses.

Perhaps I consider it simpler to classify people according to context because it's harder to group them and label them and not fall prey to the mistake of stereotyping and profiling them.

So, no, I don't think it's absurd or offensive to think in those terms. It might be offensive to express oneself in those terms, if the person listening will feel offended.
It's just that personally I prefer to avoid that.


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## invictaspirit

Unless I am much mistaken, Jews are (often) proudly descendents of a particular ethnicity/network of tribes. Their history and religious texts would seem to suggest so. I'm happy to be corrected on this. 

If this is so, then it would be factually correct to identify common physical features that repeat due to shared genes and ethnicity.  Whether or not it is polite to draw attention to these things is the debate in question.  But before you get to that debate, you need to clear up whether or not most/many Jews share a common genetic/racial/tribal origin and patterning.


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## izabella

I'm not Jewish but I understand your point. The are certain features which the Jewish friends of mine all have in common. It's hard to explain. But I must add, another time I was surprised when a friend told me she is Jewish, I could have never guessed it!

1.It's offensive in a way. But it definitely depends on the context and your tone.

2. To me, that's just like thinking that the "French look" includes a big nose. (which apparently doesn't bother my French friends. I've seen them make jokes about it all the time)


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## .   1

The big nose thing is a bit out of date to identify a Jewish person but this begs the question, "What is a Jewish person?" as compared to "What is an Anglican person?".
Sammy Davis Jnr is Jewish.
I think that it is offensive to say that someone looks Jewish and my response would have been along the lines of, "Really, how do you know?"
Religion and ethnicity are a volatile mix.

.,,


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## girloncrack

Ha ha, okay I want to clarify one more thing here: I am not talking about using a physical feature TO IDENTIFY someone as being Jewish or not. For instance, I am not surprised to find out that anyone is Jewish no matter what they look like, or likewise to find out that someone I perceive as looking Jewish is not Jewish, because I know that there are very many exceptions to every generality.  There is a big difference between acknowledging similarities that often exist and using those similiarities as a rule.  I guess the difficulty here is that, as DanielFranco pointed out, it is very difficult for a lot of people to walk that line...


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## faranji

If I were Jewish and happened to have a big, aquiline nose I'd find it extremely offensive to say that it is offensive to say that someone looks like me.

You may find this article on Jewish nostrility interesting:

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=345&letter=N


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## girloncrack

InvictaSpirit, here's a bit of info:

Here's a table that indicates that only 1.1% of the Jewish population is Jewish by conversion, meaning that 98.9% of Jews worldwide have a Jewish mother (I'm disregarding the 0.2% of Jews that have taken on another religion, sorry): http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/table.jsp?table_id=432&volid=11&title=STATISTICS:

To me, this indicates very strongly a genetic lineage within the religion... Not to mention that conversions to Judaism are probably at their peak right now, and were much more infequent in previous centuries. 

In fact in this link http://www.jewfaq.org/gentiles.htm, it explains that conversions to Judaism are not encouraged: 
"In general, Jews do not try to convert non-Jews to Judaism. In fact, according to halakhah (Jewish Law), rabbis are supposed to make three vigorous attempts to dissuade a person who wants to convert to Judaism. "


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## Chevaux

I think there is a difference in the stereotypes of AmericanJews and Isreali Jews.

One of my closest friends is Jewish, and her father was born and raised in Isael. Her mother converted when she got married. My friend (we'll call her Z) looks exactly like her mother, however most people are not at all surprised to find that she is Jewish. Perhaps Z's father simply found a wife who looks Jewish, but I honestly cannot tell. I do recognize the stereotype, with the nose and the accents, but that stereotype is nothing like Z's father which in turn confuses me, so Ihave come to the conclusion that this must be  stereotype for American Jews rather than Isreali Jews.

I dont neccessarily think it is wrong to assume that a person is of a certain religion based on their appearence. When I see an Indian (as in from India) I admit that I come to the conclusion that they are probably Hindu. I agree that if a religion is known for being confined, or with developing in a set area, then there is no problem with assuming a person's religion by their looks.

However, I am agnostic and I don't really take offense with anything that has to do with religion, so perhaps I am biased in a non-biased sort of way.


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## Odrizzt

_"I said that I can see his point, except that unlike Christianity and other religions, being Jewish is defined primarily through bloodlines."_

Mmm... you can inherit Christianism from your parents, and you can still convert to Judaism. Judaism is a religion. If it was a something like a blood group or whatever, there would be A, O, and Jewish group. And it's not the case ^^;

If it was only a matter of bloodline, people would not bother about having a cult. It would be like having blue eyes or whatever. That, is a question of bloodlines.

Per say, a newborn from Jewish parents can be raised among [fill with a religion] and become a follower of that religion. That does not mean he has jewish blood even he is [...]. He is just [...], period ^^

Though, I see the point. The fact that Judaism favors a familial inheritage table, and discourage conversions. But the point is there are people who freely entered/left the "first group" at a given time.
That does not make other people less jewish than others. Or people looking jewish... or you have to explain me what is the comon looklike between Jews living in Japan and those living in Sweden. 

In human matter, there is no norm you can draw to state such of things in my honest opinion. The Nazis tried, and we can all see the disastrous results while traveling Europe, or in History books.


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## TRG

I will tell you a little story about what a friend once asked me. He said, "I think that when I'm talking to someone on the phone, that I can tell if they are black (African-American). Does that mean that I'm prejudiced?" I told him it didn't, and I would tell you that the fact that you are able to identify racial sterotypes, such as the sterotypical jewish nose, only means that you're observant and not prejudiced. Jewishness is both an issue of ethnicity and religion, which is something that many people do not seem to understand.


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## Mate

girloncrack said:


> So my question is this:
> For those of you who are Jewish out there, 1. do you think it's absurd to think that there is such a thing as someone "looking Jewish", and if NOT 2. do you think it's offensive to think that part of that Jewish look is a big nose?
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Not at all. But...(there's always a "but") many Jews don't look as the common stereotype. Ie: I'm a big nosed Jew but both my sons are not. The security guards that keep AMIA -the most important Argentinean Jewish institution- are also Jews but they look -at least to me- like fierce gentile short-nosed gorillas.
> 
> In my opinion Judaism is an ethnic group, a religion and a people.
> Many times I have introduced myself in these forums as a non-religious Jew, since I do not believe in a human-like God. And still, I'm a Jew.
> 
> 2. Certainly you cannot offend anybody just by thinking something . It is totally different when you express what you think. And most important: the way you choose to express it.
> 
> The other day I had an unpleasant argument with a man. He said to me: "tenés cara de judío y de cagón" (_your face is that of a chicken-shit Jew_). That was extremely offensive.
> 
> But among friends (both Jewish and non-Jewish) if someone says something like "a las minas no les gustan los judíos narigones como vos" (_girls don't like big-nosed Jews like you_) it would be usually taken as an unoffensive joke.
> quote]
> 
> Mateamargo, the Jewish gaucho
Click to expand...


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## _forumuser_

I generally dislike being put in the same basket as everyone, whether it is for the way I look, for what I say, do or believe. I usually try to resist the cognitive instinct to pigeon-hole.


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## Fernando

While it is true that nowadays conversions are not encouraged that has not been always the same. Just before the Diaspora (70 AD and afterwards) Jews were dispersed throughout the Mediterranean and Middle East. 

There are blond, brown-haired Jews and most Askenazis are inseparables from their former Slav / German countrymates (let alone the Fallashas, black Jews).

When I see a snapshot of a group of Israelis (allegued "distillitation" of worlwide Jewry) I could not distinguish them from a photo of a Spanish city. Maybe I am very bad with faces.

Said that, I am a bit upset when someone says someone is "a typical Spaniard".


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## maxiogee

girloncrack said:


> So my question is this:
> For those of you who are Jewish out there, 1. do you think it's absurd to think that there is such a thing as someone "looking Jewish", and if NOT 2. do you think it's offensive to think that part of that Jewish look is a big nose?


 
Some people will take offence at anything! Even when none is intended.
Similarly, some people will intend offence in comments some people don't see as offensive.

If you have to ask if something is offensive, it most likely is.


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## EmilyD

On occasion, I have been told, "*you don't look Jewish"* and it is usually after I have shared that I am Jewish. It has been offensive, in part, because of the tone of voice and the context. One person, a coworker, physically backed away from me, as she made this comment, and smiled at the same time. Our working relationship was impacted. [ To be fair, she considered a remark that I made to be biased against Irish Americans/Kennedys, and this was about 10 years ago, so I cannot recall the sequence of our conversations...]

A Chinese colleague once shared with me, that *in China he looked Jewish.* There is a small Jewish community in China, and he met their physical (and other?) stereotype... He was happy to be told this apparently. He was an evangelical Christian and an excellent pediatriacian...I wish I could remember his name.

Hope, this isn't too lengthy....Nomi


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## girloncrack

EmilyD, 

It sounds to me that what you found offensive is that the people you had experiences with were actually anti-Semitic (thus the reactions and subsequent cooling of relations).  Would you have been as offended if someone had said with genuine interest, "Really?  You don't look Jewish..." but did not change their demeanor towards you at all?


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## EmilyD

g--

I'm not sure.  When that happens, ( or if I ever receive a written comment to that effect) I will certainly let you know! 

People used to tell me that I looked Irish, and I was proud (!?) of that.  and I have been asked if I was Pentecostal or Catholic ( and told specifically that I had a, *" Sister of Mercy car"*,)and I was amused/honored.

I am enjoying this thread and the insightful responses...Nomi


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## girloncrack

An interesting study pointing out that there is a distinct genetic Jewish background (to address the religion vs. culture issue):

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/05/000509003653.htm


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## maxiogee

EmilyD said:


> [ To be fair, she considered a remark that I made to be biased against Irish Americans/Kennedys...]




Were you lumping *all *Irish Americans in with "the Kennedys"? 
I'm not surprised she was annoyed at you


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## konungursvia

It is offensive to rapidly pigeon-hole someone based on a very small amount of data, whether or not you are correct in your assessment, because it implies the person is simple, transparent and typical.


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## .   1

konungursvia said:


> It is offensive to rapidly pigeon-hole someone based on a very small amount of data, whether or not you are correct in your assessment, because it implies the person is simple, transparent and typical.


While it only implies that about the pigeon-holed it states it catagorically about the pigeon-holer.

.,,


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## francophone

Being jewish is always related to ethnicity cause unlike other religions, jewish lived in their own community and weren't trying to spread the word. It's historical, and it's quite normal that some physical features are common, but it's not only about jewish some other populations are close.


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## konungursvia

. said:


> While it only implies that about the pigeon-holed it states it catagorically about the pigeon-holer.
> 
> .,,



 Absolutely right!


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## girloncrack

I would like to point out again that there is a difference between simply observing that someone looks Jewish and assuming that they ARE Jewish because of their appearance.  And even making that assumption doesn't seems like it should be a bad thing, really.  To me, pigeonholing someone is having predefined expectations of their behavior - and thinking that someone might be Jewish does not actually give me any expectations about that person, believe it or not. It just means that I think they might be Jewish. Simple. I don't know what "being Jewish" entails, other than the definition in and of itself.

I am Chinese but I have very dark skin, which is unusual for Chinese people. People often assume that I am Philipina, Japanese, or Korean - never Chinese - because of this. I am not offended, because to me it doesn't matter whether or not they think I'm black, white, hispanic, or what. It doesn't matter to me that they are noticing my dark skin; after all, it's a perfectly normal observation to make about someone. I don't associate any positive or negative connotations to any ethnicity so ... what difference does it make to me?

I feel that this issue is so complicated because people are unable to separate physical stereotypes from behavioral stereotypes. 

Why should I be offended if they think I look Korean? And why should *I* assume that if just because they think that I am Korean (or Japanese or Philipina) they are also making certain assumptions about my personality/character? Perhaps I am just too naive... And the next time someone asks me if I am philipina I should give them hell for being narrowminded and prejudiced?


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## Qcumber

Is "you look so English" offensive?


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## Iona

Qcumber     Is "you look so English" offensive? 

 I do not think this is comparible because surely one is a nationality and the other is a religion    Looking  'Israeli' is no doubt as absurd as looking 'English' given that the cross-section of both populations are very varied  physically. I think saying someone looks Jewish boils down to steriotypes  again. 
Iona


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## Mate

Iona said:


> Qcumber Is "you look so English" offensive?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do not think this is comparible because surely one is a nationality and the other is a religion
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with your first statement but not with the second one. Please take a look at this, and I quote myself: _"...Judaism is an ethnic group, a religion and a people...."_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looking 'Israeli' is no doubt as absurd as looking 'English' given that the cross-section of both populations are very varied physically. I think saying someone looks Jewish boils down to steriotypes again.
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Perhaps saying "You look like a cop" to a policeman may give a better idea on how some Jews can feel or react when they are told "You look like a Jew" (But I'm not a cop so I cannot be sure about my first example).
Click to expand...

 
Mateamargo


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## winklepicker

As with so much of our language and culture, history makes a huge difference. If it were not for the long and shameful record of racism against Jews (culminating in the Holocaust, of course), the answers above would surely be different.

I wonder if it is more offensive if that person IS in fact Jewish, or if they are not? In other words, is being taken for a Jew when you're a goy better or worse than being correctly identified as a Jew?


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## girloncrack

I think it is quite interesting that there are so many articles like this one:
http://www.thejewishadvocate.com/this_weeks_issue/columnists/reinharz/?content_id=2142

These articles speak of Jews getting nose jobs as a way to "hide Jewishness", and vice versa the trend of not getting nose jobs as an indication that Jews are now more interested in preserving their Jewish/ethnic look. It is specifically the language used that is of interest to me, as the term "Jewishness" is frequently used in terms of appearance. Most of these articles are written by Jewish people in Jewish publications.

How can a nose job or lack thereof have any impact on your Jewishness if there is not a Jewish look? 

Here's a blog post from a Jewish girl - the comments are very interesting, particularly as it seems that none of the posters who identify themselves as being Jewish having any problems with referring to "looking Jewish".
http://www.yuppiesofzion.com/2002/05/you_dont_look_like_one.php

http://www.utne.com/issues/1999_94/features/112-2.html (here's actually the full reprint: http://condor.depaul.edu/~mwilson/extra/multicultur/jewnose.html)

I think at this point I'm going to go with there being nothing offensive about thinking someone is Jewish based on their appearances. What people are taking offense to is the prejudice/negative stereotype that is assumed to go along with this. Within Jewish circles it seems to be perfectly acceptable to think that someone is Jewish based on their looks, because there is an implicit understanding that you are not judging them by it (in fact the judging is more likely going in the reverse direction: that of someone NOT being Jewish). 

Jewish members out there, feel free to correct this...


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## lsp

All non-factual, unscientific generalizations are best avoided, and border on racism. Do Italians enjoy being depicted as Mafia hoodlums? Do Asian enjoy being cast as karate experts, Hispanic as comics, banditos or gang members? Native Americans as savages, warriors and medicine men? Are all Middle Easterners terrorists or sheiks? Do Homosexuals resent being portrayed as effeminate? Do all women who aren't "feminine" look like lesbians? Do Jews dislike being described as big-nosed? Lots of yeses, if you ask me.


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## _forumuser_

Going one knot further on the radicalism scale, I would say that it is aggressive to simply bring up the other person's race or religious beliefs in conversation, since we have established that race, skin color, and creed should have no impact whatsoever on social relationships. I can't think of any "good" motives to say "You look Jewish!" besides setting up barriers, whether between me and the person I am speaking to, or between the two of us and the outside.

As a Caucasian living in Japan, I'm daily classified as a foreigner based on my looks and this will continue foverer no matter how long I live here and how well I will learn to speak the language and know the culture. Now, I don't mind people _thinking_ that (you can't help that), but after years here I find being called gaijin (person from the outside) or Italian, or seiyoujin (Westerner) nasty and aggressive, and most people are nice enough to avoid it. 

A while ago somebody was complimenting me for how well I spoke the language when someone else felt compelled to add: "But no matter how well you speak the language I will always be able to tell you are a foreigner because of the way you look." This was meant as an innocent statement of a fact (different looks) but for who hears it, it sounds more like an unsolicited sentence to eternal outsiderness.


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## maxiogee

Qcumber said:


> Is "you look so English" offensive?


 
Somewhat like the famed quality of 'beauty', offence is also a personal option and is 'in the ear of the listener'. 
It depends on whom the comment is being addressed to. Try saying it to a Welsh nationalist or a French-Canadian and see how offensive it appears.


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## badgrammar

I grew up in a community where either a) There were virtually no Jewish people or b) Nobody ever even thought to bring it up as a topic of conversation/observation.  There were lots of jokes (not funny) and stereotypes about blacks and hispanics, but I was totally oblivious to any sort of differentiation of Jewish people.

It wasn't until I moved to the east coast that I even realized that it might have some importance to some people.  I dated a guy for a couple of weeks before I realized he was Jewish.  Someone else mentioned it (another Jewish guy), and I was like "Oh, I didn't know", and the person was shocked that I hadn't noticed.  I asked him how I could have known that if we hadn't talked about it, and the answer was "By his name, first off, and because he totally looks Jewish".  "Oh. Okay".  That is so far from being an issue for me.

I guess I, like "girloncrack", just have never looked for or particularly cared about the matter.  Was her remark offensive?  I don't really think so, it sounds; like it was just an observation.  I loathe over-zealous political correctness.  Then again, I don't know what it feels like to belong to a minority that has historically been persecuted.  

Like others have said, it probably depends on who you say it to, how you say it and how it is recieved.  My Jewish friends seem to have no qualms about identifying themselves and others as Jewish, even making jokes based on stereotypes.  But I leave that up to them.  Just like I think Chris Rock is a comic genius, but I'm not about to go repeating what he said, cuz' I'm not black.  

Is it like "I can talk about my own family, but if _you_ start talking about my family, I will kick your #&*"?


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## Mate

badgrammar said:


> Was her remark offensive? I don't really think so, it sounds; like it was just an observation.
> 
> 
> 
> No doubt about it but it. The point here is that his/her observation was taken as an offense.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Like others have said, it probably depends on who you say it to, how you say it and how it is recieved.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My Jewish friends seem to have no qualms about identifying themselves and others as Jewish, even making jokes based on stereotypes. But I leave that up to them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm just guessing but it is not at all impossible that among your friends there may be also some Jews who decided to hide their Jewishness in order to avoid any kind of discriminative "observations".
Click to expand...

 
Mateamargo


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## badgrammar

Mateamargo said:


> I'm just guessing but it is not at all impossible that among your friends there may be also some Jews who decided to hide their Jewishness in order to avoid any kind of discriminative "observations".



I really don't know.  There is one that I have known for years and didn't know he was Jewish until I saw that the name he goes by is not his real last name (he is an actor, so I guess he changed it to a more "neutral" name), his real last name is Eidelman.  A few years ago, I would have simply assumed that name was just plain Germanic in origin.  

The others?  No, I don't think so.  But none of them are observant Jews, they're about as religious as I am (not at all), so it's more just being born of Jewish lineage.  And I'd say 90% of the time, I don't have any notion of a person's jewishness until it is called to my attention.  And for Pete's sake, what on earth could knowing that change anyway?

Jewish people who "look" Jewish?  I usually just think they might be Italian or otherwise "mediterranean".  My Dad has a big "hooked" nose, as do his sister and his mother, but there's no Jewish blood in the family that I know of.  So the nose thing is not a defining criteria of anything to me.  There's a link up above about nose shape, very interesting reading.


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## Qcumber

This thread has made me discover another criterion no sort new acqaintances.
If I tell one "you look very [any nationality]", and he / she gets angry, I'll immediately know he / she is a moron, and won't seek any further contact with them.
If he / she is proud of looking [any nationality], then I'll know they are intelligent and patriotic, hence potential friends.


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## Vanda

Not in my place. People would say it naturally: you look Jewish/ Japanese/ Italian/ Chinese/ French/ Dutch and so on.


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## faranji

Qcumber said:


> This thread has made me discover another criterion no sort new acqaintances.
> If I tell one "you look very [any nationality]", and he / she gets angry, I'll immediately know he / she is a moron, and won't seek any further contact with them.
> If he / she is proud of looking [any nationality], then I'll know they are intelligent and patriotic, hence potential friends.


 
I agree almost 100%. I'll immediately consider them morons too and run away from them.

But I see a third option: Not necessarily being proud of looking a certain nationality but not getting angry at all if someone points the resemblance. Those would be my best friends as that's exactly how I react.


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## Mate

But one of the points already (and thorougly) discussed here is that to be a Jew is not the same as to be an Israeli. Furthermore, to be a Jew is not just the same as belonging to another nationality.


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## girloncrack

While being Jewish is not exactly like belonging to an ethnicity, I feel that it is much closer to being that than it is to belonging to a religion. 

A person's parents are Christian, but that person is brought up without going to church or believing in God, that person cannot be correctly called a Christian. It must be a conscious choice, to be or not to be part of a religion. People will often say, "I'm not Christian, but my parents are". 

However, if your parents are Jewish, and you don't believe in or practice Judaism (like most of the Jewish people I know), you are still considered Jewish. This is not my opinion, this is fact. People who are Jewish by birth are considered Jewish UNLESS they convert to a different religion. 

Can you imagine if your parents were Buddhist and people insisted on defining you as Buddhist even though you have nothing to do with the religion and don't believe? In this way, Judaism does not compare at all to other religions. You cannot "get rid" of your Jewishness the way you can simply decide not to be Christian or Buddhist.

I would like to point out something amusing: the same friend who is so offended by the idea of a Jewish nose often makes comments like, "They're really stingy about money. What do you expect? They're Jewish". While perhaps he is just making an "inside joke", I hardly see how propagating this negative stereotype, even in jest, is acceptable while my objective assessment of someone's Jewish appearance is not.


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## badgrammar

Well, I bring up the example of someone like Chris Rock saying all kinds of stuff about other blacks and using the "N" word, as opposed to someone like the white comic from Seinfeld using the "N" word.  

Or, I can make fun of my own Mama, but don't you come doing it!  Being a part of the group gives you some licence...


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## girloncrack

badgrammar, I am not suggesting that we should all be able to go around talking about how stingy Jews are. I am simply saying, if you're going to talk about how stingy the Jews are, why are you so offended by my saying that someone looks Jewish? Because *I* am not even actually saying anything about Jewish character, but you are!

I also love how in this neighboring thread (started by forumuser, no less) italians and non-italians alike are throwing generalizations around like there's no tomorrow and having a ball... http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=387796


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## badgrammar

That's what I mean by making the comparison with talking about someone's family.  

Example:  My husband's parents drive my husband nuts.  He has a thousand negative comments to make about them.  But if I make negative comments, he will quickly be on the defense.  And vice-versa.  Or, I have a million critiques about my homeland, the U.S..  But if he starts in on criticizing the states, I also get defensive, y'know?  I think it's very much the same thing. 

But to get back to your original post, I don't think what you said sounds offensive, given the context.  But this guy didn't like you stereotyping his "group", because it is his group.  

It's just some quirk of human psychology, we can bash our own people, but god forbid anyone outside the group do the same.


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## girloncrack

badgrammar: I completely understand what you are saying, it is a common and natural double standard. 

However: (and I'm sure I'll have to say this a few more times in this thread) I did not actually make any negative comments about Jewish people, any more than if by saying that someone looked asian because of their perfectly straight black hair I was putting them down. My question is simply, "is there a commonly recognized Jewish look, and if so is regarded by Jews as it offensive to refer to it?" 

Commenting on someone's resemblance to a specific group has nothing to do with making negative comments about them unless you are being derogatory about them or their appearance.  To assume this connection I feel is actually furthuring negative stereotypes, because you are in a way inferring that it is negative to be thought of as xyz.


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## girloncrack

No problem Mateamargo, I'm glad there is no longer a misunderstanding!


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## Riccardino

While not Jewish myself, I attend a University where 1/3 of the student population of 10,000 students is Jewish. There's been people who I thought weren't Jewish by appearance and turned out to be, and people I was sure were Jewish who weren't. I can see where the sensitivity comes from, but from my experience the whole nose thing tends to be more of an in-joke among Jews than a slur.

I'd say that of the fairer-skin races only the Jews, Irish and Italians have a distinct look - but there's always exceptions - my brother-in-law looks Italian but has 100% Irish background.

 With the Asian races, its not too hard telling a Korean person, a Japanese person and a Chinese person apart - with exceptions again. With the African races, I'd say the only distinction I can make is between East and West African, but then I know people from South Africa who appear distinct themselves. With the Indian races, theres a physical distinction between Southern and Northern people.

Every race of people has variation, and pointing them out need not be a bad thing.

On a personal level, I'm not offended if someone says I look Italian or even "Southern Italian," which I heard the other day. There could also be a sensitivity issue - there's still people who are racist against Italians, and there was a history of it here en masse also, and even racism within Italy. I'd also would not except someone to be offended if I told them that they looked Southern Indian or Ethiopian.


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## heidita

Which reminds me of a chat held only yesterday. 
A man from south africa send me a private message. German, I said. So blond? he asked. I answered: south African, eh? Are you black?

Stereotyping is stupid but I think quite inherent to the human being.

In any case, I do not think the topic would be held lightly if this had happened in Germany.


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## maxiogee

Riccardino said:


> I'd say that of the fairer-skin races only the Jews, Irish and Italians have a distinct look - but there's always exceptions - my brother-in-law looks Italian but has 100% Irish background.


Apparantly I need to phrase this 'just so'.

As many English are very proud of their nationality, would it therefore be 'offensive' of you to call an English-person 'Irish' just because you personally think you can tell an Irish-person by sight?


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## Bonjules

Hola,

I was hoping this thread would die a quick and merciful death on it's own and therefore was holding back. 
You see, nothing good can come from it, no matter how
'well- intentioned'.
Once you have been sensitized to the issue of racism and stereotyping, you notice the following:
Just the mentioning of supposed 'racial characteristics', even with the intention to disprove or ridicule them as untrue or 'invalid' will for many just reinforce them. That is how our brain works. Even to the point of a mere mentioning ethnic or 'racial' groups 'identifies' them for many in away that plays on long held attitudes (which is why  'ethnic jokes' are so popular - and always have a negative effect).
Painful things have been said here; given what happened in the real world (and not only to Jews) we simply can not pretend
that we can 'discuss' these things in a 'light' manner; it has nothing to do with being overly 'politically correct', this is a fact.


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## .   1

maxiogee said:


> Apparantly I need to phrase this 'just so'.
> 
> As many English are very proud of their nationality, would it therefore be 'offensive' of you to call an English-person 'Irish' just because you personally think you can tell an Irish-person by sight?


I reckon that it could be a dangerous way to test the rapidity of your reflexes.

Canadians look just like Americans who look just like Australians who look just like (sigh) New Zealanders who look just like Englanders who look Irish or Scottish or Welsh or French or just throw a pin at a map.

What colour is an Aussie.  If your answer was something like, 'black, white and brindle' you might be close and we have come this far in 50 years when a White Australia policy prohibited anybody with non white skin from moving here and now we are one of the more multicultural nations on Earth.

'You look Jewish' is about as accurate and polite as 'you look intelligent'.  This has been reinforced for me in a few books I have read that contained intelligence far beyond what their covers may have indicated to some.

.,,


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## Riccardino

maxiogee said:


> Apparantly I need to phrase this 'just so'.
> 
> As many English are very proud of their nationality, would it therefore be 'offensive' of you to call an English-person 'Irish' just because you personally think you can tell an Irish-person by sight?



I was more discussing the various ethnic groups in the United States - one would be an idiot to go to another country and tell a resident that they look foreign.


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## maxiogee

Riccardino said:


> I was more discussing the various ethnic groups in the United States - one would be an idiot to go to another country and tell a resident that they look foreign.



Okay, I'll play by your rules.
Would you expect an English-American to be offended if you told them that they looked like and Irish-American.
My point is - how can you tell Irishness? And if you can, is it offensive to try to do so and get it wrong? or even is it offensive to do it and get it right. Picture the scene as Mickey-Joe Murphy III asks you precisely what it is about him which makes you able to assert his Irishness. Standing right behind him is Carlo-Luigi Lombardi is waiting his turn chatting away to Ruth Meyer who has a question for you.


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## Riccardino

You brought up a good thing there, too - names probably most of all can tell someone's background, but of course there are the ambiguous ones.

Irish people in the US tend to have very pale skin and freckles, and red hair is usually a give-away though of course it can be found in almost every ethnic group. But then there's the "black Irish" who have dark hair. I have never been to Ireland, and for all I know the people there could have olive skin, it's just what I see here.

I'm not saying that I could pick out everyone in a large group who has Irish background, but I could make a few correct guesses based on skin, hair, and names, and I'd probably make a few incorrect ones, too. I would make generalizations like this because it is not a problem here to incorrectly guess someone's background, which is why I found the original post so fascinating.


I see no problem with this because first in the United States things like this aren't a primary concern - one is American first and then Irish, Italian, or whatever second - background is just a way to identify with something else.


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## .   1

Riccardino said:


> I would make generalizations like this because it is not a problem here to incorrectly guess someone's background, which is why I found the original post so fascinating.
> 
> 
> I see no problem with this because first in the United States things like this aren't a primary concern - one is American first and then Irish, Italian, or whatever second - background is just a way to identify with something else.


What would happen to me in your neck of the woods if I wanderer up to; Miguel Sanchez III and say, "G'day Ahab, how's the camel business in Basra?" or Lemar Washington Jones IV and say, "How long since you emigrated from South Africa?" or Shlomo Glickstein IV and say, "How are the grapes hanging in Palestine?"?

.,,


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## cuchuflete

I had a friend in grad school with an oriental appearance—according to popular stereotypes.  He was born in Florida, in the U.S.  His parents had moved there as refugees from Cuba, where the family had lived for four or five generations.  Should I have called him -

—An American
—A Cuban
—A Chinaman
—A human
???


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## Riccardino

. said:


> What would happen to me in your neck of the woods if I wanderer up to; Miguel Sanchez III and say, "G'day Ahab, how's the camel business in Basra?" or Lemar Washington Jones IV and say, "How long since you emigrated from South Africa?" or Shlomo Glickstein IV and say, "How are the grapes hanging in Palestine?"?
> 
> .,,



You'd be an idiot. Why would anyone do that?


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## .   1

Riccardino said:


> I would make generalizations like this because it is not a problem here to incorrectly guess someone's background, which is why I found the original post so fascinating.
> 
> 
> I see no problem with this because first in the United States things like this aren't a primary concern - one is American first and then Irish, Italian, or whatever second - background is just a way to identify with something else.


 


. said:


> What would happen to me in your neck of the woods if I wanderer up to; Miguel Sanchez III and say, "G'day Ahab, how's the camel business in Basra?" or Lemar Washington Jones IV and say, "How long since you emigrated from South Africa?" or Shlomo Glickstein IV and say, "How are the grapes hanging in Palestine?"?
> 
> .,,


 


Riccardino said:


> You'd be an idiot. Why would anyone do that?


Because said that it would not be a problem to incorrectly guess at the ethnic origins of people in your area.  I was just wonderong what would actually hapen if I took your implied advice.

If it is not a problem in your area why would I be an idiot for doing it.

.,,


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## Riccardino

. said:


> Because said that it would not be a problem to incorrectly guess at the ethnic origins of people in your area.  I was just wonderong what would actually hapen if I took your implied advice.
> 
> If it is not a problem in your area why would I be an idiot for doing it.
> 
> .,,



"Are you Mexican?" is an acceptable question, one involving ethnic sterotypes, slurs or prejudices about behavior is not.


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## .   1

. said:


> What would happen to me in your neck of the woods if I wanderer up to; Miguel Sanchez III and say, "G'day Ahab, how's the camel business in Basra?" or Lemar Washington Jones IV and say, "How long since you emigrated from South Africa?" or Shlomo Glickstein IV and say, "How are the grapes hanging in Palestine?"?
> 
> .,,


 


Riccardino said:


> "Are you Mexican?" is an acceptable question, one involving ethnic sterotypes, slurs or prejudices about behavior is not.


These are very heavy accusations to hurl.  I will not argue with you that I am an idiot, that is a given but the rest of your epithets are base canards.

Please point out the ethnic stereotypes ,slurs and prejudices involving selling camels in Basra, emigrating from South Africa or growing grapes in Palestine?

.,,


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## Jago

cuchuflete said:


> I had a friend in grad school with an oriental appearance—according to popular stereotypes. He was born in Florida, in the U.S. His parents had moved there as refugees from Cuba, where the family had lived for four or five generations. Should I have called him -
> 
> —An American
> —A Cuban
> —A Chinaman
> —A human
> ???


 
A mongrel.

A dangerous joke, I know, I can be banned. It's just I do not... well, I can understand this "racially challenged" attitude, only I don't emphathize. It's neurotic. If somebody says I look like a Pole, I see no damn reason to feel offended. Probably I do appear to be Polish. If so... well, I'm kinda proud of my ethnicity, or what? 

Ok, I haven't been subject to anti-polish discrimination. Yet, if I happened to move to USA, with their happy anti-polonism, would I say that calling me a Pole is insulting? I don't believe so. That would be admitting that being a Pole is degrading, wouldn't it? That would give flesh to otherwise bizarre phrase "der polnische Untermensch". Or am I hopelessly missing something?

Jago


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## TRG

If you google "jewish nose", the first thing that comes up is this. The people are so absurdly wrong as to be funny, at least to me. Even so, I wonder how many people still think like this. It's a pity for them if they do.


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## girloncrack

cuchuflete said:


> I had a friend in grad school with an oriental appearance—according to popular stereotypes. He was born in Florida, in the U.S. His parents had moved there as refugees from Cuba, where the family had lived for four or five generations. Should I have called him -
> 
> —An American Yes, when referring to his nationality
> —A Cuban Yes, when referring to his ethnicity
> —A Chinaman
> I don't think it would have been offensive if you'd asked him if he was Asian before you knew that his family was from Cuba.  I don't think it would be offensive if you'd responded, "Wow, I would never have known your family was from Cuba.  You look more Asian to me".  It would be offensive to think maybe he was Asian but never ask and just continue to know nothing about his background, all because you thought it was offensive to bring it up.  It would definitely be offensive to assume he was Asian and then call him a Chinaman or ask him to do your laundry.
> —A human You could refer to him as a human if writing a scientific paper about him.  Aside from that, this term means nothing.
> ???


 
I really feel that it should be clear when someone is using negative stereotypes and when someone is simply curious about someone else's differences.  Should we all pretend that we are exactly the same?  Should we all keep ourselves from exploring other cultures because "race and ethinicity should have no impact on our relationships"?  

Many years ago I met a white South African man and expressed surprise when I found out that he was from South Africa - because in my ignorance I didn't even know there were a lot of white people living in South Africa.  He was very nice and explained to me a little bit about the demographics.  Should I have just kept my mouth shut?  Or should he have been offended at my ignorance?  I rather think that the way it happend is just the way it should happen:  one person openly expressing themselves honestly, and another person being willing to open someone else's eyes to a bigger world.

If you think that bringing up someone's ethnicity is offensive in any context and only creates barriers, do you think that in an ideal world I would have friends that are Italian, Ethiopian, Russian, and Vienamese and yet not know where they came from, where their families came from?  I think not!  In an ideal world, you would know everything about them, you would discover the ways in which they are different from you and you would enrich your world with that knowledge.  

It's ironic that we feel we have to erase any reference to ethnicity or gender in order to ensure that we are not discriminating, and in doing so we lose all the positive things that come with living in such a diverse world.  I see ignoring people's differences as just another way of blinding yourself.  Our identities should be shared freely, not hidden, and our differences celebrated rather than ignored.  If we _can't _do this it is because we live in a less than ideal society.  If we actively _prevent_ doing this then we are actually contributing to a less than ideal society.


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## .   1

'There is more than one way to call a bloke Sir.'

It is all in the attitude and the phrasing.
Are you Jewish? You look Jewish. These are prejudicial utterances. Not necessarily offensive but definitely slanted and dangerous. I am staggered everytime I see footage of the Arab/Israeli conflict. It looks like someone found an an army of identical twins and then split the twins apart and made one group the Israeli Army and the other group the Palestinian Army and now I see identical looking people killing each other over arguments that neither understand. Talk about confusing to the uninitiated. So I could be asking an Arab if he is Jewish. 

This again confuses me because I don't think of Jewish as a nationality but as a religious identity. So to ask a stranger what is their religion is possibly in the catagory of being universally offensive.

How would you respond to a stranger who asked, "Are you Catholic?"?
What would you do if a brand new aquaintance asked, "Do you take Jehova into your heart?"?
What would you do if you were interviewing a job applicant who asked, "Do you believe in The Lord Almighty God?"?

What is your ethnic origin? Where did your family come from? These are inclusive statements inviting dialogue with the only presupposition being that at some point the person being questioned had ancestors who were born in a country other than that of the questioner.

.,,


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## girloncrack

"Are you Jewish?" If you are saying this is prejudiced I think maybe you've got something against Jews

"You look Jewish" - Let me say this again: while I understand that being Jewish is not exactly an ethinicity, neither is it just a religious identity. If both of my parents are Jewish and I decide to convert to Christianity, I am Christian by religion but I daresay a good majority of people (particularly Jews) would find it hard to accept that I am not Jewish in any way whatsoever. There is still some "Jewishness" there, somehow... most people that I know who are Jewish by birth but do not believe in the religious aspects of it still say that they are Jewish - without hesitation. The term "secular Jew" is extremely common (in fact the majority of Jews in Israel identify themselves as such), whereas the term "secular Christian" will get you funny looks. If you're secular and your parents were Christian, chances are that you identify yourself with the former.

Another stark contrast between Judaism and most other religions (I am tempted to say all but out of ignorance cannot) is that most other religions welcome converts with open arms. If the entire world found God or wanted to follow the path of Buddha or whatever, it is a joyous day. If the entire world truly wanted to convert to Judaism, there would be a whole lot of Jewish people unhappy about it. 

"Are you Catholic?" - No offense taken. But if they are trying to convert me, I run away fast.

"Do you take Jehova into your heart?" - This is basically asking someone to convert, and is a completely different question. 

Asking a job applicant if they are Jewish or Catholic or whatever is illegal because it has no bearing on their ability to do the job, so this is also a completely different question. 

Asking someone in a casual situation "Do you believe in the Lord Almighty God?" is akin to asking someone, "Are you, like me, one of the chosen people?" While it doesn't presuppose anything about the person being asked, it makes a statement about the person asking the question (they are saying that God is the Lord Almighty) and is just strange. Again, I think you've taken a simple question and given irrelavent examples of how it would be offensive.

I was at a Chabad party in Byron Bay, Australia to celebrate Lag Ba'Omer last year. There was a Chabad member walking around with a signup sheet for some Jewish something or another. They conspicuously did not come to me. I was the only Asian person there, and clearly, they did not think I looked Jewish. Perhaps I should have cursed them and their damned dangerous stereotypes - don't they know that Judaism is a faith followed by ALL ethnicities?!! 

Come on. Even if I WAS Jewish, should I have been offended that they assumed I was not, based solely on my appearance? Should I have though to myself, what - because I look Asian I couldn't possibly be good enough to be Jewish?? If you assume the best in people and take the simplest answer to be the truth without reading your own fears and insecurities into the actions of others, the world will be a much more peaceful place.


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## .   1

girloncrack said:


> Asking a job applicant if they are Jewish or Catholic or whatever is illegal because it has no bearing on their ability to do the job, so this is also a completely different question.


My reference was to the applicant responding to the interviewer.
I was interested in what would the interviewer do if the applicant asked the interviewer about religion.

.,,


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## alfajor

«Jews are not a race, but a people shaped by a history of exile and  dispersion.  Over the years they have adopted many languages, many  cultures, many colors.  The Jewish people are as different from one  another as they are from those who are not Jewish.  The world is in  danger of ignoring this truth, of holding on to ancient anti-Semitic  stereotypes of the Jew as blood-sucker, and ritual murderer, blasphemer,  and treacherous conspirator seeking domination of the world.  Such  stereotypes demean and dehumanize not only their victims, but also those  who use them.  Anti-Semitism is a phenomenon of astonishing longevity  and persistence, demanding of Jew and non-Jew alike constant vigilance  if we are to overcome the legacy of the world’s longest hatred.» 



                        Wistrich, Robert S.  Anti-Semitism:  The Longest Hatred.   
                                    New York:  Schocken Books.  1994.


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## ESustad

It's not offensive (to me, at least) so much as simply inaccurate.  I know blond Jews, dark-haired Jews, zaftig Jews, rail-thin Jews, black Jews, Jews with large noses, Jews with retroussé noses, Jews with three limbs, and Jews with outie belly buttons.

John Turturro is not Jewish.


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## David S

In America, most Jews are Ashkenazi Jews, an ethnic group from central and eastern Europe. However in Israel, Jews come in all different colors and regions of the world, from India, to China, to Morocco, to Ethiopia. I would say that possibly over half the Jews in Israel do not "look Jewish" by the colloquial American definition.


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## Ma_linka

EmilyD said:


> One person, a coworker, physically backed away from me, as she made this comment, and smiled at the same time. Our working relationship was impacted.


I had a mirrowed situation when I was in Canada. A Jewish girl I worked with asked me if I was Jewish. When I said I wasn't, she backed away from me, and our relationship was greatly impacted. Still don't understand why. She simply stopped talking to me.


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## Apollodoros

I (being not Jewish) do not find anything offensive on statement that someone look Jewish.

Of course there is much generalisation and judging by stereotypes involved but here in Europe some populations are more mixed (Central Europe) than other (Greece, Spain, Norway) and general types do exist and are obvious.

It is just natural that Jews with their Semitic heritage u_sually don't have _ fair complexion with blond hair and blue eyes and _usually have_ swarthy complexion with dark hair and somewhat bigger noses.

Just like Swedes are usually tall, blond with blue eyes and many Irish are ginger, etc.

I do not see how someone can take being called Italian/German/Irish/Swedish/Jewish-looking as an offence.

I do though understand that Jews might perceive this topic to be a bit more sensitive, after shoa which was based on ancestry and people were measured to find out if they have Aryan features; and even today seeing the contemporary and ubiquitous, although sometimes latent, antisemitism.

Actually I do look Jewish and many people said that to me  I don't mind at all.

Moreover, this _does_ work as I am quite successful in guessing someone's nationality/heritage just judging by appearance (facial/body features, clothes, even shoes!) and it had proven to be right numerous times. Many people can do this. It also matters if certain populations are exposed to each other. Just ask any average Greek to guess who on the street is Albanian...


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## Sepia

Maybe it should not be taken as an offense, but it is extremely ignorant, illogical and stupid.

It is a bit like saying that somebody looks Christian or Buddhist - how will you tell somebodys religion by their looks.

Or like saying that somebody looks Irish because he has red hairs unlike most Irish that have dark hair and blue eyes. Or looks Swedish. Sure there are a lot of blond people in Sweden. Just like there are in Denmark, Norway, Finland, Iceland, Northern Germany and a lot of other places. While in these same countries there are lots of non-blond people.


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## germanbz

A law of PC

it looks like a typical A
it looks like a typical B

If A is a country, religion, ethnicity either currently persecuted and opressed or that used to be then: *it looks like a A is considered offensive.*
If B is a well developed country with an important GPD and per capita income then: *it looks like a B usually is not considered offensive. *Even though the comment have been said with offensive intention

We just can see how a lot of bad taste generalisations are commonly done about people from USA, Germany and some other countries, but usually there isn't any important controversy and people from those countries usually simply ignore that comments or at least don't give them much importance. But when a generalisation is done (any kind of generalisation,no necessarily particularly offensive) about B (group) we can see, press articles, polititics statements and even demonstrations.

Of course I don't mean very offensive generalisation but general attitud regarding with similar generalisations are very differents.


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## merquiades

I think nowadays it is offensive to say anyone looks like a typical anything..... regardless of the origin, religion, ethnic group, race. In the current climate, people are to be taken as individuals only.

"They look typically Jewish/Muslim, black/mediterranean/asian, American/ Swedish/ Spanish, gypsy/Roma, Parisian, Martian" is a no-no.

As it has been said in other similar threads, people from some nations like Spain or Italy... many other places... don't think it is a problem to allude to someone's physical traits as it is in North America or Northern Europe.  Jokes like asking blacks if they have been out in the sun too long, pulling back one's eyes to look Asian would be frowned upon in places like the US or GB now.  Same with saying things "work like an indian" or "drunk as a Pole" are out too. That's also why Tin Tin stories are not given to kids anymore.


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## ESustad

merquiades said:


> I think nowadays it is offensive to say anyone looks like a typical anything.....



I don't think quite so.  It's offensive to make any generalizations about anyone who's been oppressed in the past by white European males.  This means that white European males are fair game, but everyone is is a Protected Class (and capitalize it, you racist, and check your privilege at the door).

Therefore, in the Ivory Tower We fetishize the Dark Peoples in Exotic Headgear, but boycott the Israeli academic types because, like, racism.  They don't look exotic enough, and the kippa isn't an endearing form of ethnic costume.


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## arielipi

alfajor said:


> «Jews are not a race, but a people shaped by a history of exile and  dispersion.  Over the years they have adopted many languages, many  cultures, many colors.  The Jewish people are as different from one  another as they are from those who are not Jewish.  The world is in  danger of ignoring this truth, of holding on to ancient anti-Semitic  stereotypes of the Jew as blood-sucker, and ritual murderer, blasphemer,  and treacherous conspirator seeking domination of the world.  Such  stereotypes demean and dehumanize not only their victims, but also those  who use them.  Anti-Semitism is a phenomenon of astonishing longevity  and persistence, demanding of Jew and non-Jew alike constant vigilance  if we are to overcome the legacy of the world’s longest hatred.»
> 
> 
> 
> Wistrich, Robert S.  Anti-Semitism:  The Longest Hatred.
> New York:  Schocken Books.  1994.


This is rubbish and nonsense, the same thing can be said on the USA - just a collection of cultures from all over the world in one place.


----------

