# Urdu: His keys were in my pocket



## Jabir

Hello!

I have some doubts (marked in red, below) about my translation to Urdu of this sentence.

English, original: His keys were in my pocket
My Urdu attempt: Us ki chabian meri jib men thin

Thanks again!


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## marrish

All red marked things are OK!

_us kii chaabiyaaN merii *jeb* meN thiiN
_
jiib is a contemporary Iranian Persian pronunciation. In Urdu it is invariably jeb (long e).


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## Jabir

Thanks once again, Marrish Saahib!

Sometimes I make this confusion with the ي...


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## Abu Talha

Hello. I'm only nitpicking here, and _jeb_ is the most common pronunciation (and mine as well), but _jaib_ is probably more correct.


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## marrish

Abu Talha said:


> Hello. I'm only nitpicking here, and _jeb_ is the most common pronunciation (and mine as well), but _jaib_ is probably more correct.


Your supposed nitpicking has led me to look think about it and I think I don't agree with Platts who said it was one word. Contrary to your idea. jaib and jeb are different words. jeb means a pocket whilst jaib a collar. There are some poems in Urdu (by Ghalib) where, if you read it as _jeb_, it will be very strange. If you read it as jaib - girebaan - it will suit.


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## Abu Talha

Thanks for the correction. By the way, what then is the etymology of jeb?


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## marrish

I don't know. Perhaps the same?


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## Abu Talha

marrish said:


> I don't know. Perhaps the same?


If it is from the Arabic jaib then this was originally a shirt's neck opening but is today used for a pocket.

I guess before clothes pockets were invented people used to put their previous items in their shirt's neck opening.


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## mundiya

I think Platts correctly defined the word and indicated the shift in its meaning and pronunciation.


> A جيب _jaib_, vulg. _jeb_, s.f. The opening at the neck and  bosom (of a shirt, &c.); the breast-collar (of a garment); the heart; the bosom; (the Arabs often carry things within the bosom of the shirt, &c.; and hence the word is now applied by them to) 'a pocket' (in which sense the Turks, Persians, and Indians pronounce it _jeb_):—_jaib-pāra_, adj. Having the collar rent; sad:—_jaib-ćākī_, s.f. Heart-rending:—_jeb-i-ḵẖāṣ_, s.f. A privy purse:—_jeb-ḵẖarć_, s.m. Pocket-money:—_jeb-katrā_, s.m. A pickpocket: _jeb katarnā_ (-_kī_), To pick the pocket (of):—_jeb-ghaṛī_, s.f. A watch.


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## marrish

Thank you, you may be right. What remains is that jaib (collar) is masculine while jeb (pocket) feminine.


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## Wolverine9

Is _jaib _masculine in Arabic?  If it is, that could be the reason why the original meaning has masculine gender in Urdu.


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## marrish

Yes, _jaib_ is masculine in Arabic. Thanks for your explanation.


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## Sheikh_14

marrish said:


> Your supposed nitpicking has led me to look think about it and I think I don't agree with Platts who said it was one word. Contrary to your idea. jaib and jeb are different words. jeb means a pocket whilst jaib a collar. There are some poems in Urdu (by Ghalib) where, if you read it as _jeb_, it will be very strange. If you read it as jaib - girebaan - it will suit.



So in other words Marrish Saahib do you believe that Urdu-phones have themselves built up a distinction between the two by calling pocket jeb and collar jaib? We all know the etymology here and those who don't can see Mundiya jee's comment for that. Secondly, even bearing in mind that this is distinction, if indeed it is present can Juyub be used as an alternative to Jebe (prakrit pluralisation not sure about how its transliterated) and in this case the pluralisation will stand for both. Thirdly, would you claim Jaib is in use at all in place of Girebaan?


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## marrish

^ Sheikh_14 SaaHib, I don't believe that Urduphones have created two different words out of one. I would submit that it just happened so that the pronunciation jeb was adopted by those early Urduphones who had direct contact with the Persian language and it corresponds certainly with the meaning but it happened also that many of them have had direct or indirect contact with the Arabic language and used the pronunciation jaib for a collar, especially in the poetry. It would be ridiculous to assume that many poets describing the beloved who tears up one's collar meant a pocket by this. jaibeN cannot be good because it is with "e" not with "ai" and the suffix -eN is a feminine one whilst jaib for a collar is masculine and thus cannot take this suffix so it can't serve both. I didn't come across juyuub ever. Lastly, yes, jaib is used for girebaan, especially while quoting poetry. _jaib-ćākī, s.f. Heart-rending _will never be jeb-chaakii_!_


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## Sheikh_14

Juyub is the official Arabic plural of Jaib thence it ought to be usable. Yes it isn't used especially by people who do not speak or understand Arabic and its pluralisations'. Your explanation with regards to Jaib-rending was lovely but than again illustrated how Urdu phones have indeed forged two words seeing that their contexts were different. Since centuries have gone by yet the distinction remains, is evidence of how two different denotations acquired from the very same root have helped forge an interesting division. JebooN is the most commonly used plural and JebeN when one is referring to someone's or his own pockets I.e. uske JaibeN khaali tii. Since Juyub is after all the original plural would it be acceptable in both forms be it for Jeb or Jaib? Since Jeb was never a word to begin with. Are you contending Marrish Saahib that Jeb is a Persian adaptation of Jaib than brought into Urdu?


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## marrish

_juyuub_ is used for 'sines' [mathematics]. Yes, I think _jeb_ was pronounced so in Persian at the time when it started being used in Urdu. I think the modern Iranian pronunciation is _jib_ now.


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## Sheikh_14

marrish said:


> _juyuub_ is used for 'sines' [mathematics].
> Doesn't really negate nevermind refute my point.
> 
> Yes, I think _jeb_ was pronounced so in Persian at the time when it started being used in Urdu. I think the modern Iranian pronunciation is _jib_ now.
> you are correct about the modern Iranian pronunciation. Modern Iranian elongates words irregardless of its letters thence its probably Jiib. For instance dog is sag and whilst unknowing urdu speakers would say Keh Sang e kisht Muqaiyyad aur sag azaad, iranians would instead pronounce it as nearly the English Sag. Would you in this instance think the quick sag is better or the Iranian Sag since most people who would use the word know a thing or two about Persian?


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