# droit de cuissage



## savannah

Moderator note:
Threads merged to create this one.

Hello again,

The dictionary defines this as the feudal custom that allowed the feudal lord the right to sleep with a bride from his fiefdom on the night of her wedding to someone else. (ugh!)

Does anyone know if there's an English equivalent? Here's the sentence it's in (the rest of the sentence is no problem, but cuissage has stumped me:

Il retourne sur celui, qui, non sans légèreté ni outrecuidance, s'est trop facilement pris pour un dieu et s'en est arrogé les droits : droits de conquête et de cuissage, de souveraineté et de spoliation.

Thanks so much, y'all!


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## Johanne

droit de cuissage : My dictionary gives this very long definition : right to subject employees to sexuel harassment.


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## lpfr

I think that there is no translation in English. See how wikipedia treats it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droit_de_seigneur
Also in Google, the name is in French in English entries.


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## Suehil

The English phrase, oddly enough, is a French one.  'Droit du seignieur' - which is used exclusively for the right of the lord to deflower the local maidens.


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## savannah

Thanks everyone--I appreciate the help!


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## robotham

Can anybody help with the English translation of this phrase "par droit de cuissage"?
Paul


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## hunternet

"upon the master's privilege" <---- very polite translation.


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## robotham

thank you very much


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## doodlebugger

I believe it is translated in English by _droit du seigneur  _


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## robotham

Thanks again for the responses about droit de cuissage. The translations fit the context perfectly.
Paul


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## jamesjiao

Actually in the old days, people used the latin phrase Prima Noctes (first nights) to signify a lord's right to sleep with local maidens in his fiefdom on the night of their weddings to some one other than the lord himself.


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## bh7

Jus primae noctis. Perhaps more a titillating myth than common historical practice.
The alleged " droit de seigneur "  was given a religious interpretation by my history prof:  In his view, it really was a " droit du Seigneur ", or God's right; the faithful were apparently encouraged to offer up their wedding night to the Lord and abstain from sexual relations.


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## tilt

Johanne said:


> droit de cuissage : My dictionary gives this very long definition : right to subject employees to sexu*a*l harassment.


This is the modern meaning of the expression, which originally referred to what is explained in the other posts.


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## auerbacs

Prima Noctes is actually somewhat well known in English speaking countries because it was the initial provocation in the very popular film "Braveheart". So I think that that would be the most adequate translation. How horrifying that French has a similar construction!


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## fandenickylarson

J'essaie d'expliquer à des amies américaines (en référence avec ce qui se passe aux Etats-Unis avec le directeur du FMI) la culture française, surtout et spécifiquement dans le monde politique, du "droit de cuissage". Je n'arrive pas à trouver la bonne expression en anglais. J'ai cherché dans ce forum et j'ai trouvé "droit du seigneur" mais n'y aurait-il pas une expression en anglais plus moderne?
J'ai un peu travaillé quand j'étais plus jeune avec mon député et j'ai été le témoin de pratiques très libidineuses de la part de beaucoup d'hommes politiques (de gauche et de droite) sur certaines femmes.
Quelle expression je peux utiliser?
I have been the eyewitness of certain sexual practices, a "droit de cuissage" of political officials over ...


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## Micia93

"sexual harassment" ?


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## Missrapunzel

Micia93 said:


> "sexual harassment" ?


_Droit de cuissage _et _sexual harassment_ ne me semblent pas du tout être des synonymes.[...]


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## Micia93

Missrapunzel said:


> _Droit de cuissage _et _sexual harassment_ ne me semblent pas du tout être des synonymes.


 
c'est la définition du Harraps


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## wildan1

In describing the current situation in the general press, I don't think the official French loan term _droit du seigneur_ would be used--it is quite legalistic. Maybe a highbrow publication but not a general one, and definitely not on TV or radio.

_Believing one is allowed to take all liberties_ is a phrasal description that might work in modern times.


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## Island Thyme

We use droit du seigneur when talking about times past.  In modern times, this practice is not accepted in any way (at least in the US where it is considered sexual harassment or worse). I think from several hours of discussion about this topic with French friends over the past two days that it's a practice that is still tolerated to some extent in France, but not at all in the US.  Thus there is no term in English to describe it as a practice, only as a crime.


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## sejean

I agree that there is no set term for this in English because it is not a recognized, and certainly not a tolerated, practice anymore (at least not in the US). You could talk about someone in a position of power "exercising his privilege" over his female subordinates (or male subordinates as the case may be). But keep in mind that we don't acknowledge, in principle, that people in a position of power _have_ sexual privilege over subordinates. It's understood that this is the way things were in the (fairly recent) past, and it would be naive to assume this never happens today, but we don't publicly acknowledge or tolerate the idea.


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## Michelvar

Island Thyme said:


> We use droit du seigneur when talking about times past.  In modern times, this practice is not accepted in any way (at least in the US where it is considered sexual harassment or worse).


En fait, à l'époque où cette coutume est censée avoir existé, les bisons peuplaient les vastes plaines, et aucun indigène américain n'avait encore eu la malchance de croiser un homme blanc. En Europe, en plein moyen age, qui sait ce qu'un noble local, qui avait d'une certaine manière droit de vie ou de mort sur ses sujets, pouvait bien inventer.




Island Thyme said:


> I  think from several hours of discussion about this topic with French  friends over the past two days that it's a practice that is still  tolerated to some extent in France,



 Vos amis se sont moqué de vous, je vous assure qu'en France il n'existe aucune loi permettant à  un maire, un député ou un sénateur de tester une fiancée avant de l'autoriser à se marier...


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## Island Thyme

Ah, no, of course I didn't mean that an actual droit de cuissage, in the strict sense, is still tolerated.  Rather I meant, and I think you might agree, that the use of sexual power by the rich and famous is still tolerated to some extent, implicitly, as opposed to being the law of the land.


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## Michelvar

Yes, you're right, it's easier form them because they have something to share with the victim (money, profesional promotion, part of celebrity...), so it's easier for them to avoid proceedings. And, you are right, french law are more protective with private life, so it's more difficult to write about this in the press.


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## stormwreath

If you're talking about the modern day, I think _culture of sexual harassment_ would be the most appropriate translation of droit de cuissage. "There is still a culture of sexual harassment among the rich and powerful in France". 

The (borrowed) English expression droit de seigneur is only used in a historical context, although it might be used ironically here: "Because of the pervasive culture of sexual harassment in France, he believed he could enforce his droit de seigneur over his female subordinates."


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## becel

_a practice that is still tolerated to some extent _
Tolerated? I'm not sure it is the right word. It's more being aware of a practice and people know and close their eyes. Re the current situation mentionned above "droit de cuissage" certainly does not apply. If the facts are proved it is definitely sexual harassment.


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## wildan1

Time Magazine discusses the issue in these terms:

_With power comes both opportunity and confidence,... and with confidence comes *a sense of sexual entitlement.*_​ 
Read more: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2072527,00.html#ixzz1NOhrEMyt​


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## Gérard Napalinex

Island Thyme said:


> it's a practice that is still tolerated to some extent in France


No tolerance exists, only lack of support to harassed people who dare not have the criminals sued.

Still, a very common phrase like "promotion canapé" (it happened to be a film title even), could legitimate somehow your opinion, as it is very often heard  with a smile.


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## Mtrain17

I don't know any set expressions, but it seems to imply this idea of a powerful man feeling that he is able and has the right to have sex with any woman he wants.


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## Micia93

Mtrain17 said:


> I don't know any set expressions, but it seems to imply this idea of a powerful man feeling that he is able and has the right to have sex with any woman he wants.


 
it doesn't seem, it *does* imply ! (and as Gérard says, often heard with a smile!)


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## Micia93

[…]

"Droit de cuissage" is an old expression dating back to the Middle-Ages, as said before, but still exists, mostly between a boss towards his employee (Clinton vs Monica Levinski for instance). So, it's not a matter of judgement depending on your race, sex, if you are gay or not. It's just a fact. This sort of behaviour still exists. "Droit de cuissage" is less and less employed and has now been replaced by "promotion canapé" as mentioned in post 28


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## temp1234

To answer the original question, there has never been any equivalent tradition of _droit de cuissage_ in England. Modern historians also doubt that it was ever exercised in France either, but some myths are just too enticing to let drop.


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