# passive voice



## islandspaniels

Thanks everyone for your help with si tratta..I am learnnig Italian on my own and this forum has the potential for great help;
next question; Cosè il migliore modo di esprimere la forma passiva: si può usare  il verbo "essere" col participio passato?, oppure usa la construzione riflessiva col pronomo impersonale( particella passivante)  "si"
per esempio: this leter is written..questa lettera è scritta, was written..fu scritta..per altro, questa lettera si scritta...si è scritta


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## Alfry

islandspaniels said:
			
		

> Thanks everyone for your help with si tratta..I am learnnig Italian on my own and this forum has the potential for great help;
> next question; Cosè il migliore modo di esprimere la forma passiva: si può usare il verbo "essere" col participio passato?, oppure usa la construzione riflessiva col pronomo impersonale( particella passivante) "si"
> per esempio: this leter is written..questa lettera è scritta, was written..fu scritta..per altro, questa lettera si scritta...si è scritta


 
as you told correctly:
this leter is written = questa lettera è scritta, 
this letter was written = questa lettera fu scritta (or è stata scritta, depending on the context)

this pen is given to me = questa penna viene (è) data a me
this pen was given to me = questa penna mi fu [venne] data or questa penna mi è stata data.

sometimes is or was can be translated using the verb Venire.

as to your question about the use of si as particella passivante 

questa lettera è scritta - si scrive questa lettera
questa lettera fu scritta - si scrisse questa lettera (si e scritto questa lettera)

si + verb in the active form (and you have to link scrive (3rd person sing.) with lettera)

si scrivono queste lettere (scrivono = 3rd person plur.)


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## islandspaniels

alfry,
quale è la situazione in cui "è stata scritta" è miglior di "fu scritta"
è miglior dire "è stata scritta" oppure "fu scritta".  mi pare forse "è stata scritta"  più esattamente riflette la voce passiva

fammi dire ancora "mille grazie"
Alfredo


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## Leopold

islandspaniels said:
			
		

> alfry,
> quale è la situazione in cui "è stata scritta" è miglior di "fu scritta"
> è miglior dire "è stata scritta" oppure "fu scritta".  mi pare forse "è stata scritta"  più esattamente riflette la voce passiva
> 
> fammi dire ancora "mille grazie"
> Alfredo


 
 Entrambe le forme sono corrette per la voce passiva. (Verbo "essere" + participio passato)
 "fu scritta" si riferisce a un passato remoto e non è quasi mai usata nel parlato, tranne in certe regioni del sud, mi pare.
 Di solito dovresti dire "è stata scritta". "Fu scritta" si usa se vuoi riferirti a un passato molto remoto (anni) o nello scritto per eventi già finiti e senza riferimento al processo, solo all'azione.

 L.


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## islandspaniels

L.
Finalmente!! questa spiegazione adesso ciò fa senso. È vero, per lo più, che ho visto "fu" in scrivendo ma non pare comune per parlando. (Forse il uso del gerundio per essere un nome  in questo modo è non corretto?)


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## Alfry

Leopold said:
			
		

> Entrambe le forme sono corrette per la voce passiva. (Verbo "essere" + participio passato)
> "fu scritta" si riferisce a un passato remoto e non è quasi mai usata nel parlato, tranne in certe regioni del sud, mi pare.
> Di solito dovresti dire "è stata scritta". "Fu scritta" si usa se vuoi riferirti a un passato molto remoto (anni) o nello scritto per eventi già finiti e senza riferimento al processo, solo all'azione.
> 
> L.


 
Yes, I agree with Leo!!!


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## Alfry

islandspaniels said:
			
		

> L.
> Finalmente!! questa spiegazione adesso *ha* senso. È vero, per lo più, che ho visto "fu" *nello scritto* [nell'italiano scritto] ma non pare comune *nell'italiano parlato*. (Forse *l'*uso del gerundio per essere un nome in questo modo è non corretto?)


 
do you mind if I correct something in your post?

I can't understand what you meant with : (Forse *l'*uso del gerundio per essere un nome in questo modo è non corretto?)


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## islandspaniels

Alfry, because you corrected my post I am once more enriched by this site!!!Also, In my ignorant way I was asking if the gerund e.g., parlando could serve as a noun in Italian....Your corrections answered that query....Nello scritto for writting and nell' italiano parlato for speaking....
Mille Grazie!!
Alfredo


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## Alfry

islandspaniels said:
			
		

> Alfry, because you corrected my post I am once more enriched by this site!!!Also, In my ignorant way I was asking if the gerund e.g., parlando could serve as a noun in Italian....Your corrections answered that query....Nello scritto for writting and nell' italiano parlato for speaking....
> Mille Grazie!!
> Alfredo


 
prego, you're welcome...

in any case usually "il gerundio" is not used as a noun in Italian.
you can say:
leggendo (se leggi) quel libro puoi imparare molte cose = reading (if you read) that book you can learn lots of things

but you could also say [keeping the same meaning as before]:
leggere quel libro ti può fare imparare molte cose,
where leggere is meant as 'the action of reading'

or 
la lettura di quel libro ti può far imparare molte cose 
in this case lettura is a noun that means the action of reading


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## islandspaniels

capisco! ancora una volte io sono "illuminato"


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## Alfry

islandspaniels said:
			
		

> capisco! ancora una volte io sono "illuminato"


 
I'm just now realizing that we share the same first name.


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## Silvia

Something interesting to read about passato prossimo e passato remoto


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## DareRyan

I have been doing some reasearch on the passive voice in Italian but I am at a loss. I know the the pronoun "Si" can make a phrase passive "Si parla Italiano" (One speaks Italian / Italian is spoken/ etc.). But one thing I can't find is how to form the passive voice for something other than a 3rd person conjuagtion. I know in Latin it is a completely different set of endings for the verbs (Or Ris Tur Mur Mini Ntor). Is this the case in Italian? An example of the type of phrase I am looking to for is "I am given the book by the boy" Normally the boy is the subject but if I wanted to take emphasis away from him I can turn this subject into an object of a preposition. How would I go about this in Italian?


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## pavela

To take emphasis on the fact that the book has been given to you by someone you can say:

"il libro mi è stato dato dal ragazzo"

Cheers!


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## Tommaso Gastaldi

If you want to use the present tense:
 "Il ragazzo mi dà il libro"
becomes:
 "Il libro mi viene/è dato dal ragazzo"

The verb "dare" in Italian does not have intransive usage, as you do in English: "Io sono dato un libro dal ragazzo" does not exist.


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## Jana337

Ecco alcuni thread sul passivo che ti possano servire: 1, 2, 3

Jana


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## lsp

Jana337 said:
			
		

> Ecco alcuni thread sul passivo che ti possano servire: 1, 2, 3
> 
> Jana


Subjunctive? Why?


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## DAH

DareRyan said:
			
		

> I have been doing some reasearch on the passive voice in Italian but I am at a loss.


". . . the pronoun "Si" can make a phrase passive "Si parla Italiano" (One speaks Italian / Italian is spoken/ etc.). = Il si impersonale

But one thing I can't find is how to form the passive voice for something other than a 3rd person conjuagtion. You have confused some rules of grammar.

An example of the type of phrase I am looking to for is "I am given the book by the boy" Normally the boy is the subject but if I wanted to take emphasis away from him I can turn this subject into an object of a preposition. How would I go about this in Italian? = la forma passiva


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## Jana337

lsp said:
			
		

> Subjunctive? Why?


I think it implies my uncertainty. He might find the threads useless. If I had been sure that they were pertinent to his question, I would have said "... che ti serviranno".

Madrelingua, aiuto! 

Jana


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## moodywop

Jana337 said:
			
		

> I think it implies my uncertainty. He might find the threads useless. If I had been sure that they were pertinent to his question, I would have said "... che ti serviranno".
> 
> Madrelingua, aiuto!
> 
> Jana


 
Hi Jana

The dreaded subjunctive strikes again!  While we're on the subject, where did you hide your invaluable "verbs/expressions requiring the subjunctive" file while I was away? I've been plugging it non-stop.

You can't use the subjunctive in your sentence, unless you add a "penso" or "spero":

_Ecco alcuni thread sul passivo che penso/spero/mi auguro possano esserti di aiuto_

You can express uncertainty without "penso/spero/credo/mi auguro" by using a conditional:

......._che potrebbero esserti di aiuto_

It would be nice to have a thread on the use of the subjunctive where non-natives could single out areas they have problems with and all the Italian foreros could pitch in and sort out this difficult topic on a case-by-case basis, providing plenty of examples(the same could be done with other recurring grammar problems, such as conditionals/subjunctives in reported speech). Something tells me it would wind up being a never-ending thread...

Maybe the forum has been focusing too exclusively on translations lately, while I think many non-natives would appreciate more help with grammar/usage problems that are not covered extensively in their grammar/course books.

Carlo


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## lsp

Jana337 said:
			
		

> I think it implies my uncertainty. He might find the threads useless. If I had been sure that they were pertinent to his question, I would have said "... che ti serviranno".
> 
> Madrelingua, aiuto!
> 
> Jana


Thanks,* Moodywop*. (Otherwise, Jana, you'd never see potere with anything but the subjunctive.)


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## Jana337

Many thanks, Carlo. Molto chiaro, come sempre.  

I thought I could update the file. A link will be available in the new resources thread (hope to finish it until the New Year!).

Jana


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## DesertCat

moodywop said:
			
		

> ...while I think many non-natives would appreciate more help with grammar/usage problems that are not covered extensively in their grammar/course books.



Definitely.  I  literally have a full library of dozens of Italian reference books  that I've purchased over the last couple of years.  But it seems to me that so often the sample sentences used are too simplistic and I'll initially think I understand a concept but once I try to apply it to a more complicated sentence I end up confused.


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## leenico

> It would be nice to have a thread on the use of the subjunctive where non-natives could single out areas they have problems with and all the Italian foreros could pitch in and sort out this difficult topic on a case-by-case basis, providing plenty of examples(the same could be done with other recurring grammar problems, such as conditionals/subjunctives in reported speech).


Yes moodywop, great idea! I might even start going back to the cinema if this were to happen. (Inside joke from previous subjunctive discussions.)


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## ccvl

In order to have a proprer and reliable rule we should use a transitive verb first (I don't know if transitive exists as a word in English, any way I mean that the Italian verbs you form passive with can have a direct object in the Italian sentence structure); for example "blame" (accusare):

ACTIVE - PASSIVE
Io accuso - Io sono/vengo accusato
Io ho accusato -  Io sono stato accusato
Io accusai -  Io fui accusato
Io accuserò - Io sarò accusato

The general rule with transitive verbs is that you use the verb "to be" as the auxiliary and the past participle of the action-verb.

With intransitive verbs you can build a passive structure by adding the personal pronoun - indirect object - "give":
ACTIVE - PASSIVE
Io do - mi è dato
io ho dato - mi è stato dato
io diedi - mi fu dato
io darò - mi sarà dato
I must confess I don't know the right nomenklatura of grammar in English, and moreover the rules above do not appear in any grammar books, but are derived fro my personal consideration on my language!


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## moodywop

ccvl said:
			
		

> With intransitive verbs you can build a passive structure by adding the personal pronoun - indirect object - "give":
> ACTIVE - PASSIVE
> Io do - mi è dato
> io ho dato - mi è stato dato
> io diedi - mi fu dato
> io darò - mi sarà dato
> I must confess I don't know the right nomenklatura of grammar in English, and moreover the rules above do not appear in any grammar books, but are derived fro my personal consideration on my language!


 
This might confuse learners. Intransitive verbs cannot, by definition, be used in the passive. And _dare _is not an intransitive verb.

What is peculiar to English(and leads to incorrect sentences if translated literally) is the structure(used with _dare/give, promettere/promise, dire/tell, mandare/send etc):_

_I've never been given a more beautiful present = Non mi è mai stato fatto un regalo più bello_

_I was told a lie = mi è stata detta una bugia_


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## aqidah

The passive voice in Italian is not always constructed with "si" "gli" "mi", this is rather called riflexive (riflessivo).

The passive voice is similar to English and it is conctructed using the verb to be + past participle.

E.g  Luca painted the house.              (active)
      The house *was painted* by Luca    (passive)

      Luca dipinse la casa                    (attiva)
      La casa *fu dipinta* da luca           (passiva)

      The house will be builded within 3 weeks        (passive)
      La casa sara' costruita entro tre settimane  

      The house is strongly builded
      La casa e' solidamente costruita


      I eat the apple       The apple is eaten (by me)
      mangio la mela        La mela e' mangiata (da me)

PS. Remember, the past participle must be conjugated in accordance with
      the gender and number of the objetc (eg. mela-mangiata, pollo-mangiato, patatine-mangiate, tacchini-mangiati)

I hope this will help


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## Jana337

Please visit the English forum for a discussion about built/builded.

Jana


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## Jasper

Is it true that the passive voice only applies to verbs that take the auxilliary "avere" in the active voice? I couldn't think of any examples with verbs that take the auxilliary "essere".


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## Jana337

Jasper said:


> Is it true that the passive voice only applies to verbs that take the auxilliary "avere" in the active voice? I couldn't think of any examples with verbs that take the auxilliary "essere".


Yes. Logically, a verb must be transitive if you can form a passive voice.
I saw him. He was seen by me.
He died. Who did anything to anyone? Impossible.



Jana


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## Jasper

Thanks Jana. That makes perfect sense but are there no transitive verbs that use "essere"?


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## Jana337

Jasper said:


> Thanks Jana. That makes perfect sense but are there no transitive verbs that use "essere"?


I think there are no such verbs but let's wait for a confirmation. 

Jana


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## DDT

Jana337 said:


> I think there are no such verbs but let's wait for a confirmation.
> 
> Jana


You are definitely right  

DDT


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