# French: pronoun "en" and comparison with Italian "ne"



## dylanG3893

Salut..

I know that 'en' can, in cases where 'dans' doesn't fit, mean 'in', however - I've seen many places where it is used as the Italian pronoun 'ne'.

For example:
'J'en ai marre' - EN doesn't mean 'in'!!
'On en parle ici' - En still cannot mean 'in'!

It seems as if it can be used as a pronoun that means 'of it'.
This would seem perfect here:

'J'en ai marre' - I'm fed up *of it*
'On en parle ici' - One speaks *of it *here

In this respect if in Italian "ne" is the equivolent, then I believe 'en' should mean, of it, some of it, from it, any, about it, of him/her/them, about him/her/them

C'est vrai? A preposition placed before a verb just seems completely wrong, this word has to have another 'pronoun' meaning and usage.


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## bassoonery

En has many meanings and uses, you'll need a good grammar dictionary to understand it completely (which I don't!). 

It is primarily a pronoun. In French, pronouns are frequently found before the main verb. You're right, it usually means "of it", where "it" is the thing you are omitting by using the pronoun. The meaning "in" is secondary to this usage.

It is very similar to the word "Y" which has similar complications with being a general pronoun as well as meaning "there".

I'm sure someone more fluent can give you more details.


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## dylanG3893

bassoonery said:


> En has many meanings and uses, you'll need a good grammar dictionary to understand it completely (which I don't!).
> 
> It is primarily a pronoun. In French, pronouns are frequently found before the main verb. You're right, it usually means "of it", where "it" is the thing you are omitting by using the pronoun. The meaning "in" is secondary to this usage.
> 
> It is very similar to the word "Y" which has similar complications with being a general pronoun as well as meaning "there".
> 
> I'm sure someone more fluent can give you more details.



Because Italian and French are two close romance languages I think it's safe to say 'en' is Identical to 'ne' in Italian, and if it is then I fully understand the meaning of 'en'. Ne and Ci are two pronouns in Italian that are on the same level and there translations in French are interestingly enough En and Y, however Y's usage is a little different.


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## Kelly B

In your sample sentences, _en_ used before the verb is the equivalent of _de x. De_ often means_ of, _but not always: its translation in English depends on the verb or clause associated with it.

J'_en _ai marre = J'ai marre _de ça_ = I'm fed up _with that _= I'm sick _of that. 
_Here _en _can have different English equivalents, even in sentences that mean the same thing, because the English verbs themselves take different prepositions.

Whether _en _is the equivalent of an Italian pronoun is really outside the scope of the French-English forum, as many of our members aren't familiar with Italian. If you'd like to discuss that aspect further, I'll be happy to transfer this thread to the Other Languages forum (please signal a moderator using the red triangle at the top of the first post if you'd like one of us to do that.)


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## dylanG3893

Kelly B said:


> In your sample sentences, _en_ used before the verb is the equivalent of _de x. De_ often means_ of, _but not always: its translation in English depends on the verb or clause associated with it.
> 
> J'_en _ai marre = J'ai marre _de ça_ = I'm fed up _with that _= I'm sick _of that.
> _Here _en _can have different English equivalents, even in sentences that mean the same thing, because the English verbs themselves take different prepositions.
> 
> Whether _en _is the equivalent of an Italian pronoun is really outside the scope of the French-English forum, as many of our members aren't familiar with Italian. If you'd like to discuss that aspect further, I'll be happy to transfer this thread to the Other Languages forum (please signal a moderator using the red triangle at the top of the first post if you'd like one of us to do that.)



Wow, the French moderators are way nicer then the Italian ones, hah. 
They'd move my post without even telling me - but I guess you could move it if you think it'd help.


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## jann

Hello DyanG3893,

The French word _en_ has two separate grammatical functions (you can see a separate entry for each in the TLF dictionary):
a preposition --> this is when it means "in," and is used in situations where "dans" doesn't fit, as you describe.
a pronoun --> this is where it means "of it"

Both of these functions are possible in front of a verb.  The preposition _en_ can be combined with the present participle.  The pronoun _en_ can appear before a verb that would otherwise be followed by _de + X._

Since we can't really discuss Italian on the FR-EN pages, I have moved your thread to Other Languages.  Hopefully this way, people who know more about Italian will have a chance to see your thread and discuss the analogies between _en_ (FR) and _ne_ (IT).


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## urizon9

dylanG3893 said:


> Because Italian and French are two close romance languages I think it's safe to say 'en' is Identical to 'ne' in Italian.


 Yes,you can translate the Italian pronoun *ne *in different ways, but usually you can always use *en *which is identical to *ne,*as you said before._Hai figli?* -* sì,* ne*_ _ho quattro:_ _est-ce que tu as des enfants?_ - _oui, j'*en* ai quatre _etc.


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## jmx

The word "en" does exist in Catalan too, with roughly the same 2 uses of French "en". When it's a pronoun, it can change from "en" to "ne", depending on relative position in a sentence.

Anyway, it would be more accurate to say that there are *two* different words "en" that happen to be homophones. According to the Alcover-Moll online dictionary (http://dcvb.iecat.net/) the preposition "en" comes from Latin "in", while the pronoun "en/ne" comes from Latin "inde".


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