# 私は部屋には電話がありません



## YangMuye

> 私は屋部には電話がありません（が、事務所にはあります）


文法的に正しいですか？

よろしくお願いします。


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## Flaminius

屋部 should be 部屋.  Other than that, everything is grammatical.  You are practising on the use of contrastive-_wa_, I presume?


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## YangMuye

Flaminiusさん。お返事ありがとうございました。
Sorry for the typo. (I copied it from a webpage)

This is a question asked by a friend. He wondered if 「私は屋部には電話がありません」 was correct.
I think this sentence is correct, but another friend insisted that it should be wrong, only 私の屋部には電話がありません was correct.


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## Flaminius

Sorry but 屋部 is really weird.  Let me correct it in the following two sentences. I am sick of slapping [sic] to an error just to ensure I am quoting correctly.


> 1. 私は部屋には電話がありません。
> 2. 私の部屋には電話がありません。


Both Sentences are correct.  The difference is the semantic weight.  In Sentence 2, there being no phone is supported by one condition, which is the range where the proposition holds true is "my room."  In contrast, Sentence 1 has two preconditions; i) the owner of the phone is the speaker (私は) and ii) the phone is installed in their room (部屋には).

In logic, there is no difference between Sentences 1 and 2 but, in human language, Sentence 1 entails there is possibility that the speaker has a phone somewhere other than their room.  This is probably what your friend, the first one, wanted to express by: （が、事務所にはあります）


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## YangMuye

Oh, sorry. It should be 部屋. (I typed it by myself this time  )

Thank you very much.


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## xicot

Flaminius said:


> Sorry but 屋部 is really weird.  Let me correct it in the following two sentences. I am sick of slapping [sic] to an error just to ensure I am quoting correctly.
> 
> Both Sentences are correct.  The difference is the semantic weight.  In Sentence 2, there being no phone is supported by one condition, which is the range where the proposition holds true is "my room."  In contrast, Sentence 1 has two preconditions; i) the owner of the phone is the speaker (私は) and ii) the phone is installed in their room (部屋には).
> 
> In logic, there is no difference between Sentences 1 and 2 but, in human language, Sentence 1 entails there is possibility that the speaker has a phone somewhere other than their room.  This is probably what your friend, the first one, wanted to express by: （が、事務所にはあります）



Hi there, I have to say personally the first sentence sounds a little strange and in anycase if you were to use a sentence structure like that, better to have a punctuation. i.e. 私は、部屋には電話がありません (please be aware punctuation rules between Japanese and English is very different).

But generally speaking the second sentence is fine and will be accepted by Japanese people, so I would go with 私の部屋には電話がありません。


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## Wishfull

Hi, *xicot*, I thought exactly the same thing with you for the first time.

Yet, thinking about a scenario like; 「最近の若者の1人として、私は携帯電話しか持ってません。今さら固定電話なんて必要ありません」, 

then, 「私は部屋には電話がありません」　would be quite natural, or might be possible, don't you think so?

・私は部屋には電話がありません。けれど携帯は持ってます。

・(20年前ですと）私は部屋には電話がありません。けれどアパートの玄関に共用電話がありますのでいつもそれを使ってます。


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## xicot

Yes I agree, at first I was thinking 私は部屋には電話持っていません sounds more natural and better,　as you put with　私は携帯電話しか持ってません that in both circumstances you have or do not have  （持っている、持っていない）. 
As I said in my first post, the first sentence simply sounds a little strange to me, although I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't incorrect. But again this is entirely my own opinion. 

But as the poster is foreign and to avoid confusion, it would be better to go with the simple example of 私の部屋には電話がありません。


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## Wishfull

YangMuye said:


> This is a question asked by a friend. He wondered if 「私は部屋には電話がありません」 was correct.
> I think this sentence is correct, *but another friend insisted that it should be wrong, only 私の部屋には電話がありません was correct.*



I agree with you, xicot.
I too think that the "another friend" might be correct, as a language learner.
A sentence which is correct in only a very specific context would not be cool for learners (especially beginners).


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## YangMuye

Mina-san, Thank you all for your replies. 　m（＿＿）m.

In fact, it's said that this sentence was from a textbook and was used to explain the "contrastive-wa". The original question was 私は部屋には机がありません.
But I think the sentence itself is somewhat "座り悪い", so I changed it to "私は*部屋には*電話がありません" (put the stress on 部屋には) and added "が、*事務所には*あります" (which was just used to provide a contrastive context).

I would not be surprised if a sentence from a textbook is unnatural (in the given context), which I don't know why. (e.g. Almost every textbook has these sentences: 近くに駅がありますか, 机の上に林檎がありません ...)

But I think this sentence is grammatically correct and will be natural given a context.

That's why I have asked this question.




> Yes I agree, at first I was thinking 私は部屋には電話持っていません sounds more natural and better,


Japanese "有" is so difficult for me. 



> Hi there, I have to say personally the first sentence sounds a little strange and in anycase if you were to use a sentence structure like that, better to have a punctuation. i.e. 私は、部屋には電話がありません


Thank you for your advise. Do I need to put a pause after "私は" when speaking?



> ・私は部屋には電話がありません。けれど携帯は持ってます。


携帯 is much better than 事務所. 
Will 私は部屋に電話はありません work in the same context?


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## Wishfull

YangMuye said:


> In fact, it's said that this sentence was from a textbook and was used to explain the "contrastive-wa". The original question was 私は部屋には机がありません.
> But I think the sentence itself is somewhat "座り悪い", so I changed it to "私は*部屋には*電話がありません" (put the stress on 部屋には) and added "が、*事務所には*あります" (which was just used to provide a contrastive context).
> 
> I would not be surprised if a sentence from a textbook is unnatural (in the given context), which I don't know why. (e.g. Almost every textbook has these sentences: 近くに駅がありますか, 机の上に林檎がありません ...)
> 
> But I think this sentence is grammatically correct and will be natural given a context.
> 
> That's why I have asked this question. *I don't think you understand it correctly....*
> 
> 
> 
> Japanese "有" is so difficult for me.
> 
> 
> Thank you for your advise. Do I need to put a pause after "私は" when speaking?* Yes. Only if you dare to use it....
> *
> 
> 携帯 is much better than 事務所.
> Will 私は部屋に電話はありません work in the same context? *Yes, and No.*



OK. I think we confused you.
To make it simple and understandable for Japanese learners, I would say;

私は部屋に電話はありません。が、携帯電話を持ってます。  There is no telephone in* I* room. or "I there is no telephone in the room." 
私は部屋には電話はありません。が、携帯電話を持ってます。 
私の部屋に電話はありません。が、携帯電話を持ってます。  There is no telephone in *my* room.
私の部屋には電話はありません。が、携帯電話を持ってます。 
私は部屋に(は)電話を*持ちません*。が、携帯電話を持ってます。 *I *have no telephone in the room.

私は（主語）持ちません（動詞） is grammatically correct.
私は（主語）ありません（動詞）　is grammatically wrong.


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## YangMuye

Thank you all. Arigatougozaimasu.

The problem is getting more and more complex.

When I asked the question, I just thought that
1. We can recursively replace the first の or に in a sentence with が(to classify the characteristics).


> I forgot where I saw the following sentences. They may be from the works of 三上章's or 久野暲's.
> ニューヨークの郊外に良い住宅地が有る(こと)   ニューヨークが郊外に良い住宅地が有る(こと)
> ニューヨークの郊外が良い住宅地が有る(こと)   ニューヨークが郊外が良い住宅地が有る(こと)


2. You can put a contrastive-wa(usually only one) without changing the order of words. But the context is important.

Now there are three more issues.
3. ある has the meaning of "have". But it seems that it does not always have.

4. A affirmative sentences with contrastive-wa is often not understandable without a certain context, but the negative one is usually natural. (And I doubt whether it is the contrastive-wa or not)

5. In negative sentence, the first が is usually changed to は. Sometimes you can have one more は which does not really have a contrastive sense.
(As I said, 机の上に林檎がありません appears in many text books. But 机の上に(は)林檎はありません seems more natural.). 
Sometimes the は in the negative sentence is not necessary in the affirmative one. e.g. "私に*はありません" is natural but It seems that "私に*があります" and "私が*はありません" are unnatural.

Maybe we should open another one or more threads to talk about them.


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