# Это должна быть простой задачей или простая задача?



## Valda Vaux

So that's the question. What's correct, nominative or insturmental? 

Это должна быть простой задачей или это должна быть простая задача?


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## Budspok

Это должн*О* быть простой задачей.   Это должна быть простая задача.


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## amazingenough

согласен с Budspok


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## Valda Vaux

Спасибо. Интересно, что это работает таким образом.


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## ahvalj

«Это должно быть простой задачей»: subject is «это», consequently the adjective agrees with it and stands in neuter.
«Это должна быть простая задача»: subject is «задача», the adjective stands in feminine. 
«Это, должно быть, простая задача»: subject is again «это», the verb is omitted, «должно быть» — don't know how to call it correctly, a kind of insertion splitting the phrase into two parts.
In English in all three cases "it must be an easy task". In Hebrew, don't even dare to guess.


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## Awwal12

ahvalj said:


> «Это должно быть простой задачей»: subject is «это», consequently the adjective agrees with it and stands in neuter.
> In English in all three cases "it must be an easy task".


Yes, although the third sentence contains a bit of uncertainty and definetly is not an order (here "it must be an easy task" = "it is supposed to be an easy task").


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## Enquiring Mind

> definItely is not an order


 You make a valid point, but don't forget that "must" can express (1) obligation, or (2) probability, and "it must be an easy task" is fine if the "probability" rather than the "obligation" sense is clear in the context (which we don't have ). See "MUST в настоящем времени" here (source: usefulenglish.ru). 

Continuing Valda Vaux's question about nominative or instrumental, what do you native Russians think about the grammatical case in the third version of the sentence?
 «Это, должно быть, прост*ая* задач*а*»? is obviously right, but what about «Это, должн*о* быть, прост*ой* задач*ей*" (instrumental)? I don't think I would want to say or write this, but what do you natives think, please?


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## amazingenough

Enquiring Mind said:


> «Это, должно быть, простая задача»? is obviously right, but what about «Это, должно быть, простой задачей" (instrumental)? I don't think I would want to say or write this, but what do you natives think, please?



Actually ahvalj has already given all the possible cases. This: 

Это, должно быть, прост*ой* задач*ей*.

is not correct with commas. If you mark "должно быть" with commas, you take it out of the common flow of the sentence. And the left part

Это прост*ой* задач*ей*.

is wrong (because of the wrong case). 

Это прост*ая* задач*а* - is right.

Moreover, by marking "должно быть" with commas you give a touch of incertitude to the whole sentence. It literally changes its meaning:

1) Это простая задача = This task is simple. Neutral statement.
2) Это *должно быть* простой задачей = It *must be* a simple task. Here you are 100% sure that this task is really simple.
3) Это*, должно быть, *простая задача = This task is *probably* simple. Here you are not sure - maybe it`s something easy or the opposite - something hard to perform - you don`t know it exactly at the moment of speaking. This effect is reached by the use of commas. In English you can also say (_i am not sure though_) - This task must have been simple - correct me if i am wrong. 

Also there is a difference in intonation between 2) and 3) which makes you aware of the sense (№2 or №3) given by your interlocutor in the spoken language.


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## Awwal12

Enquiring Mind said:


> You make a valid point, but don't forget that "must" can express (1) obligation, or (2) probability, and "it must be an easy task" is fine if the "probability" rather than the "obligation" sense is clear in the context (which we don't have ). See "MUST в настоящем времени" here (source: usefulenglish.ru).


Well, I have not THAT big broblems with my English.  Or at least I want to believe so. I hope I have made myself clear enough already about the ambiguosity of "it must be" phrase above.
By the way, "это должна быть простая задача" may also mean "it should be an easy task", "it has to be an easy task", "it ought to be an easy task" - whatever; Russian makes even less difference here. The same, obviously, refers to "это должно быть простой задачей" as well (these two phrases are almost identical).


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## Caballero_Andante

"Это должно быть простой задачей" sounds a bit odd to me, like it's slightly "unnatural" ("carbon-copied" from English).
"Это, должно быть, простая задача" is fine for probability. For obligation/necessity or request, it should be "Задача должна быть простой", in my opinion.


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## Awwal12

Caballero_Andante said:


> "Это должно быть простой задачей" sounds a bit odd to me, like it's slightly "unnatural" ("carbon-copied" from English).


Not necessary; it is totally appropriate if, say, you discuss something that has to be done, and then you state or, possibly, order that *it* (это) must be an easy task. However, if the whole speech is about some school problem (and here problem = задача as well), it would really sound somewhat unnatural. So, everything depends on the context.


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## Caballero_Andante

Even when discussing something, I can hardly imagine somebody saying it. I'd say "Эта задача должна быть простой" in this case. However, this is just how I "feel" it, not that I were telling this is the only option possible.


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## ahvalj

"Это должно быть простой задачей"


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## Caballero_Andante

That is it, 5 hits, one of them being a link to this thread
However, задача должна быть простой is also rare, returning just over 50 hits.


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## ahvalj

Are we discussing this exact phrase or the entire syntactic construction? If the latter, you'll get dozens of entries for each combination of words, so the construction will turn out pretty alive.


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## Caballero_Andante

Well, my point was that, in this case, the это-like sentence would sound weird to me, and that's it. To me, it looks pretty much the same as Это было прекрасное утро, когда.... for "It was a lovely morning when..." Overall, I would be cautious about Russian phrases beginning with это, though in English they sound quite all right.


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## learnerr

Caballero_Andante said:


> Overall, I would be cautious about Russian phrases beginning with это, though in English they sound quite all right.


To me, this looks like being overcautious.  I mean, I see no analogy with the morning sentence (where the English "it" means a different thing than the Russian "это": in Russian, it refers to a thing that was already named, so the когда-clause sounds wrong, in English, it refers to a thing that will be named), and "это должно быть простой задачей" sounds good to me. I don't wish to say this is an equivalent for the English phrase (there are simply too many variants to have any one equivalent), but it makes sense and sounds well.


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## Awwal12

Caballero_Andante said:


> Even when discussing something, I can hardly imagine somebody saying it. I'd say "Эта задача должна быть простой" in this case. However, this is just how I "feel" it, not that I were telling this is the only option possible.


"Модерирование форума должно быть простой задачей" -> ".... ЭТО должно быть простой задачей". Just for instance.


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## Caballero_Andante

learnerr said:


> To me, this looks like being overcautious.  I mean, I see no analogy with the morning sentence (where the English "it" means a different thing than the Russian "это": in Russian, it refers to a thing that was already named, so the когда-clause sounds wrong, in English, it refers to a thing that will be named), and "это должно быть простой задачей" sounds good to me. I don't wish to say this is an equivalent for the English phrase (there are simply too many variants to have any one equivalent), but it makes sense and sounds well.



It does make sense, but still I keep finding something awkward in the это-phrase when we could easily do without это and use the noun as a subject. In case of Это печально, это прекрасно etc. это is necessary as it replaces a noun, a phrase or even an entire sentence. However, in case of Это должно быть простой задачей it is not so transparent.


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## Caballero_Andante

Awwal12 said:


> "Модерирование форума должно быть простой задачей" -> ".... ЭТО должно быть простой задачей". Just for instance.


The pronoun for replacing a neutral noun is _оно_, not _это_ ("Модерирование форма является важной составляющей бла-бла-бла, *оно* необходимо для...").
Это is either an indicative (Это он. Это мой друг.) or a placeholder for a whole phrase or sentence.


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## learnerr

Caballero_Andante said:


> The pronoun for replacing a neutral noun is _оно_, not _это_


In Awwal's phrase it is a placeholder for replacing a whole situation ("модерирование форума"), so your criteria, in fact, fit (but I don't find that word-rewriting approach is correct for human languages, we are not pattern-matching devices of the kind REFAL is).


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## Caballero_Andante

learnerr said:


> I don't find that word-rewriting approach is correct for human languages, we are not pattern-matching devices of the kind REFAL is.


Actually, many human language features were used to create machine languages. Of course, human languages are much more "alive" than the machine ones, but they have much in common, including the placeholder thing.
Sorry for OFF-topic.


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## learnerr

Caballero_Andante said:


> It does make sense, but still I keep finding something awkward in the это-phrase when we could easily do without это and use the noun as a subject.


What if it is not yet known that this is задача, and so want to tell it as well?
We're talking of what we have now, but saying эта задача должна быть sounds like a thing said in general.


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## learnerr

Caballero_Andante said:


> Actually, many human language features were used to create machine languages. Of course, human languages are much more "alive" than the machine ones, but they have much in common, including the placeholder thing.


"Alive" is a magical category, we should not rely on it. 
The meaning of natural words is so much more variable, that it needs a different approach than the meaning in computer languages, which are made basing on strict logic.
After all, nobody ever says Катя пошла в магазин здорово instead of это здорово. This is because we treat all words alike, without mechanic relying on automatic rewriting rules.


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