# Rok, Lat



## franknagy

Is the Polish rule for Rok and Lat the same as the Russian one for 1 год, 2-4 года, 5-20 лет?


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## Ral.G

I have no knowledge of Russian whatsoever, but it does seem that way.

Or maybe not exactly? I've no idea how you say 21, 31, 41, etc. years in Russian. In Polish you include it in "lat":

1 rok, 2-4 lata, 5-21 lat, 22-24 lata, 25-31 lat, 32-34 lata, ...


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## marco_2

So, in Polish _rok _apears only after a separate 1: _jeden rok, _after eg 21 we say: _dwadzieścia jeden lat _(the Russians say _двадцать один год_)


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## Thomas1

Only if you use 'rok' with ordinal numbers, it always keeps its form:
Jest na drugim roku studiów. -- He's in his second year at university.
1982/2013 rok -- Year 1982/2013
etc.


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## franknagy

Thank you for the answers.


Ral.G said:


> I have no knowledge of Russian whatsoever, but it does seem that way.
> 
> Or maybe not exactly? I've no idea how you say 21, 31, 41, etc. years in Russian. In Polish you include it in "lat":
> 
> 1 rok, 2-4 lata, 5-21 lat, 22-24 lata, 25-31 lat, 32-34 lata, ...



Very interesting similarity and dissimilarity of Polish and Russian rules.

1 год, 2-4 года, 5-20 лет, 21 год, 22-24 года, 25-30 лет, 31 год, 32-34 года.

But how has fallen 





> "lato"="летo"="summer"


 into both soups instead of "year" after certain numerals?

Regards
        Frank


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## marco_2

You can found _lieto _= year even in Old-Church-Slavonic so it is a pretty old phenomenon. It is interesting that in many Polish dialects people also used the noun _wiosna _(spring) meaning _year _(Ile sobie liczysz wiosen? = How old are you? - literally _How many springs do you count / have you survived?)_


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## Ben Jamin

franknagy said:


> Is the Polish rule for Rok and Lat the same as the Russian one for 1 год, 2-4 года, 5-20 лет?


Not the same.
In Polish it is 1 rok, 2 lata, 3 lata, 4 lata, 5 lat, all higher numbers xx lat, except those ending in 2, 3 or 4 (two different words, two different cases)
In Russian    1 god,  2 годa, 3 года, 4 года, 5 лет, all higher numbers xx лет, except those ending in 1, 2, 3 or 4. (on word, three different cases)

Grammars give the rule " _двадцать один год" __but a Google search yields a lot of "__двадцать один _лет" too! (Anyone knows why?)


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## franknagy

Dear Marco,


marco_2 said:


> You can found _lieto _= year even in Old-Church-Slavonic so it is a pretty old phenomenon. It is interesting that in many Polish dialects people also used the noun _wiosna _(spring) meaning _year _(Ile sobie liczysz wiosen? = How old are you? - literally _How many springs do you count / have you survived?)_



Which is the dialect saying _wiosen_?
What are the Polish dialects?
I know only 2 dialects: _kaszub_ around Gdańk and _góral_ in Zakopane.
Which other ones do exist?
Plz, send me a link with map and a summary of their mai differences.

TIA, Regards
   Frank


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## dreamlike

The word 'wiosen' (plural) in the sense of 'lat' is used widely by people from all parts of Poland, it's by no means limited to any dialect. I've heard many people from all over the country use it, and they spoke standard Polish (if such a term is even applicable to our language). It's just colloquial, and perhaps slightly humorous.


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## Ben Jamin

dreamlike said:


> The word 'wiosen' (plural) in the sense of 'lat' is used widely by people from all parts of Poland, it's by no means limited to any dialect. I've heard many people from all over the country use it, and they spoke standard Polish (if such a term is even applicable to our language). It's just colloquial, and perhaps slightly humorous.



I would say it is  rather more old fashioned and poetic, than colloquial. I have met this usage only in books.


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## Ben Jamin

franknagy said:


> Dear Marco,
> 
> 
> Which is the dialect saying _wiosen_?
> What are the Polish dialects?
> I know only 2 dialects: _kaszub_ around Gdańk and _góral_ in Zakopane.
> Which other ones do exist?
> Plz, send me a link with map and a summary of their mai differences.
> 
> TIA, Regards
> Frank


There exist many dialects of Polish. You can read about them here: https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwary_polskie
Actually the large dialect groups described in this article are still divided into smaller dialects/subdialects. In the XXI century dialects are disappearing, being replaced by variants of the standard Polish language with slight local traits like vocabulary, pronunciation and accent, but you can still find older people in rural environment still proficient in their local dialect.


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## dreamlike

Ben Jamin said:


> I would say it is  rather more old fashioned and poetic, than colloquial. I have met this usage only in books.


You may have a point. WSJP labels _'wiosna - rok życia człowieka'_ as indeed 'literary', and SJP PWN as 'old fashioned/archaic' - the term they use in Polish is 'dawniej'. Still, I have come across it informal contexts a great many times.


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## Thomas1

franknagy said:


> [...]
> 
> But how has fallen  into both soups instead of "year" after certain numerals?
> 
> Regards
> Frank


This phenomenon is not only bound to Polish and Russian. It exists in more Slavic languages. It also does in English:'summer' can also be used to mean 'year':
*3. * A year: a girl of 13 summers.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/summer
Strangely enough, this use of 'summer' corresponds well to the Polish 'wiosna' meaning 'year' (considered literary and/or archaic/old-fashioned).

More on the Russian usage of 'god' and 'lieto': http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2286260&langid=21





marco_2 said:


> You can found _lieto _= year even in Old-Church-Slavonic so it is a pretty old phenomenon. It is interesting that in many Polish dialects people also used the noun _wiosna _(spring) meaning _year _(Ile sobie liczysz wiosen? = How old are you? - literally _How many springs do you count / have you survived?)_


I've recently come across it in Romance languages: 
Portuguese primavera
Spanish primavera
French printemps
They can all mean 'year'. A sample from a Portuguese dictionary: 
primavera
3    Derivação: sentido figurado.
idade de uma pessoa jovem
Ex.: completou 12 p. 
Source: Houaiss

I've just consulted a German dictionary and it says that 'Lenz' (pl. 'Lenze'), meaning 'spring', can also mean 'year'.



franknagy said:


> Dear Marco,
> 
> 
> Which is the dialect saying _wiosen_?
> What are the Polish dialects?
> I know only 2 dialects: _kaszub_ around Gdańk and _góral_ in Zakopane.
> Which other ones do exist?
> Plz, send me a link with map and a summary of their mai differences.
> 
> TIA, Regards
> Frank


Polish dialectologists used to distinguish five dialects:
kaszubski
wielkopolski
mazowiecki
małopolski
śląski
Today kashubian is considered a separate language. Just a little clarification: 'góralski' is technically considered a part of _dialekt małopolski_, we call it 'gwara'. You may find this website useful: 
http://www.gwarypolskie.uw.edu.pl/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=806&Itemid=82



dreamlike said:


> You may have a point. WSJP labels _'wiosna - rok życia człowieka'_ as indeed 'literary', and SJP PWN as 'old fashioned/archaic' - the term they use in Polish is 'dawniej'. Still, I have come across it informal contexts a great many times.


I've got the same experience with 'wiosna' as Ben Jamin. Perhaps the dialect from your neck of the woods uses it?


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## ryba

Hi,

When it comes to Polish dialects, I have a fun fact for you. In the Podhale dialect, they generalized the root _rok-_ for all numerals. That is to say, they say:

jedyn rok (1 rok)
dwa, trzy, śtyry roki (2-4 roki)
piyńć (...) dwaścia jedyn roków (5-21 roków)
22-24 roki
25-31 roków
etc.

 which is exactly what happens in Ukrainian, too:

один рік (1 rik)
два, три, чотири роки (2-4 roky)
п'ять (...) двадцять років (5-20 rokiv)
двадцять один рік (21 rik)
22-24 роки
25-30 років
etc.

Our neighbors from the Grand Dutchy of Lithuania (today known as Belarus), in turn, opted for the other root:

адзін год (1 hod)
два, тры, чатыры гады (2-4 hady)
пяць (...) дваццаць гадоў (5-20 hadoŭ)
дваццаць адзін год (21 hod)
22-24 гады
25-30 гадоў
etc.

It looks like the Slovenes did the opposite and generalized the root corresponding to Polish _lat-_, Russian _лет-_: Leto (Wikipedia). It would be interesting to know what the story behind the suppletivity of the 'year'-paradigm (Proto-Slavic _*rokъ_ / _*godъ_ × Proto-Slavic _*lěto_) exactly is: is the generalization of either of the roots a post-Proto-Slavic innovation or is having a suppletive (mixed) paradigm an innovation (resulting from the co-existence of semantically close fully-fledged paradigms that only relatively recently got fused into a single suppletive paradigm in some Slavic varieties)?

I wanted to draw your attention to the fact that, in all Slavic languages, cardinal numerals from 1 to 4 govern the nominative case, while 5-10 govern the genitive case (1). This is an Indo-European trait (also present in Old English).

(1) Exceptions in numbers higher than 10 are language (or language group) specific.

Nominative in Polish: cardinal numerals from 1 to 4 and those ending in *2*-4, except for the teens.
Genitive in Polish: the rest.


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## franknagy

> I've recently come across it in Romance languages:
> Portuguese primavera
> Spanish primavera
> French printemps
> They can all mean 'year'. A sample from a Portuguese dictionary:
> primavera
> 3    Derivação: sentido figurado.
> idade de uma pessoa jovem
> Ex.: completou 12 p.
> Source: Houaiss
> 
> I've just consulted a German dictionary and it says that 'Lenz' (pl. 'Lenze'), meaning 'spring', can also mean 'year'.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Publicado por *franknagy*
> 
> 
> 
> Dear Marco,
> 
> 
> Which is the dialect saying _wiosen_?
> What are the Polish dialects?
> I know only 2 dialects: _kaszub_ around Gdańk and _góral_ in Zakopane.
> Which other ones do exist?
> Plz, send me a link with map and a summary of their mai differences.
> 
> TIA, Regards
> Frank
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Polish dialectologists used to distinguish five dialects:
> kaszubski
> wielkopolski
> mazowiecki
> małopolski
> śląski
> Today kashubian is considered a separate language. Just a little clarification: 'góralski' is technically considered a part of _dialekt małopolski_, we call it 'gwara'.



Hi Thomas,
The "tavasz" = spring can used in Hungarian to express age - usually old one.

"Megértem már hetven tavaszt, de még nem láttam ilyen tornádót."
"I have lived to see seventy springs but I have not seen such a tornado."

I think that the spring in the expression of the old age is more natural than the summer after all the winter is the hardest season in the point of view of the survival.

There is a special expression for the age of 77 years in Hungarian: "a két fekete kaszás"="the two black scythe-men".
(Derived from the crossed form of figure seven of fonts used in old books.)
Does it exist in Polish or Russian? 

I wonder how the linguistians define the difference of dialects and languages.
I think it is more political than scientific question.
I know the following definition:
"What is the difference between a nation and a nationality?
The nation is a nationality with an army."

...
Thank you for the links to maps of Polish dialects.
Millions of of people were forced to resettle in Europe after the second world war,
in case of Poland from The Ucraine to Pomerania, so on.
What was the portion of Polish people in Silesia and other German possessions before it?

TIA 
    Regards
       Ferenc


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## Paulfromitaly

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