# В Новый год в доме русских украшается ёлка.



## wonlon

I am doing a translation exercise in my Russian textbook.

The sentence is:
*During New Year, Russian families are decorated with Christmas trees. *(my translation from Chinese.)*

*My answer: *В Новый год в дома́х русских украша́**ется ёлком.*
The refrence answer: *В Новый год в д*о́*ме русских всегда украш*а́*ется ёлка.*

I want to know if I am correct or not.
Is there any problem with the reference answer?

Thanks for your help.


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## morzh

1. Not families decorated - homes/houses. Or families decorate trees.
2. На Новый год в русских семьях / в русских домах наряжают елку.


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## rusita preciosa

The reference sentence is correct. We do not decorate our houses (or families) with the tree, we decorate the tree itself (in our houses).


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## wonlon

Let me modify my translation. The sentence should be:

*During New Year, Russian homes are decorated with Christmas trees. 

*The reference answer: *В Новый год в д*о́*ме русских всегда украш*а́*ется ёлка.*

But why should *ёлка *be in nominative, not instrumental?
I can't figure out the case agreements here.

Is *д**о**́**ме* and *дома**́**х* both OK here?

Another sentence from the book is:
*В до́ме всегда ста́виться ёлка, кото́рая украша́ется специа́льными ёлочными игру́шками.*

Now it is instrumental that comes after украшается.Why?


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## Sobakus

wonlon said:


> But why should *ёлка *be in nominative, not instrumental?
> I can't figure out the case agreements here.
> 
> Is *д**о**́**ме* and *дома**́**х* both OK here?



See *rusita preciosa*'s answer. "Украшать чем-либо" is mostly used with objects one can at least lift up(like ёлочные игрушки, unlike ёлка, фонтан etc). You can't exactly _translate_ this sentence into Russian, but the idea remains the same.


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## wonlon

I am trying to figure out the case agreement. Please see if my understanding is correct:*

В Новый год в д*о́*ме русских всегда украш*а́*ется ёлка.*

*В Новый год *- During New Year
*в д*о́*ме русских* - in Russian homes*
всегда *- always
*украш*а́*ется *(passive of украша́еть) *ёлка. - *the Christmas tree is decorated. 


*В до́ме всегда ста́виться ёлка, кото́рая украша́ется специа́льными ёлочными игру́шками.*

*В до́ме всегда ста́виться ёлка *At home the Christmas tree is always erected*
**кото́рая украша́ется* - which is decorated*
специа́льными ёлочными игру́шками* - with special Christmas tree toys.
http://forum.wordreference.com/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=11016859


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## rusita preciosa

wonlon said:


> But why should *ёлка *be in nominative, not instrumental?


украшать [кем?/чем?] ёлкой (instr) - to decorate something with a tree
украшать [кого?/что?] ёлку (accus.) - to decorate a tree


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## rusita preciosa

wonlon said:


> *В до́ме всегда ста́виться ёлка, кото́рая украша́ется специа́льными ёлочными игру́шками.*
> 
> *В до́ме всегда ста́**виться ёлка* [nom.]- At home the Christmas tree is always erected
> *кото́рая украша́ется*- which is decorated
> *специа́льными ёлочными игру́шками* [instr.] - with special Christmas tree toys.


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## Rosett

wonlon said:


> *during new year, russian homes are decorated with christmas trees. *(my translation from chinese.)
> 
> my answer: *В Новый год в дома́х русских украша́**ется ёлком.*


Хороший ответ.
Небольшие поправки.
*В Новый год дома́ русских украша́ются ёлкой.*


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## Angelo di fuoco

Rosett said:


> Хороший ответ.
> Небольшие поправки.
> *В Новый год дома́ русских украша́ются ёлкой.*



Грамматически правильно, но бессмысленно: "украшать ёлкой" дома звучит дико.


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## Maroseika

angelo di fuoco said:


> Грамматически правильно, но бессмысленно: "украшать ёлкой" дома звучит дико.



Думаю, что совсем правильно было бы "елками" - ведь домов много, а елка - предмет.


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## morzh

Такое ощущение, что елка украшает дома. А люди (русские) сидят и наблюдают, как они это делают.


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## morzh

Последнее: "дома украшаются елками" - дикость. Как, впрочем, и "елкой".


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## Angelo di fuoco

Для меня также совершенно очевидно, что Вас следует вспомнить первое правило форума:

1. Be helpful, not hurtful.
If someone's language background isn't perfect, don't treat him/her badly.

Иначе Вы бы так не ворчали.

И в случае данного пользователя: он изучает русский по учебнику, которому нельзя доверять безоговорочно, и у учителя, не являющегося носителем языка и посему не застрахованного от ошибок.


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## Angelo di fuoco

Dear Wonlon,

it would be helpful if you next time also posted the original sentence, even if it's in Chinese and you don't expect anyone to be able to read it.
I happened to study Chinese for some years and am able to read not too difficult sentences with the aid of online dictionaries like mdbg.net.


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## morzh

Angelo di fuoco said:


> Для меня также совершенно очевидно, что Вас следует вспомнить первое правило форума:
> 
> 1. Be helpful, not hurtful.
> If someone's language background isn't perfect, don't treat him/her badly.
> 
> Иначе Вы бы так не ворчали.
> 
> И в случае данного пользователя: он изучает русский по учебнику, которому нельзя доверять безоговорочно, и у учителя, не являющегося носителем языка и посему не застрахованного от ошибок.




I am not hurtful to those who want to listen, the least bit to the person asking.
My grumbling actually about those helping him - they muddied the water more than it was before.


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## Angelo di fuoco

I think Wonlon can learn and has learned something from most of the answers.


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## morzh

Well....when I go to a market, I probably will also learn how to fend off pickpockets, and even buy a live goose, but this is not why I came there - I came to buy some onions, and this happened to be the day when no one was selling them.

Same here. He got tons of answers, but I do not see the correct answer to what he was asking. I only see noise, based on incorrect translation, or possibly correct translation of an incorrectly asked question - which one it is, I do not know.
I wonder how helpful it is.....


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## Angelo di fuoco

Then we definitely need the original sentence.


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## morzh

Angelo di fuoco said:


> Then we definitely need the original sentence.



And an expert in Chinese who's fluent in either English or Russian.

PS. Here's a problem I see with this whole predicament.
As you said before, one of the attempts here sounds ugly, and I couldn't agree more - it does.

But we also got sidetracked by starting to discuss small details (like why nominative for "елка") without really concentrating on the main purpose of the question at hand. Maybe, in a correct translation the would be no "елка" in nominative at all.

My thoughts about this:

1. The original may not help at all. It is like the saying goes, "it's the thought that counts". It is possible, that in Chinese things are formulated differently, hence the lame attempted translation into English.
We really need to know what is meant more than what is written. Chinese is way too different a language, even though we see those things between Russian and English too.

2. Once we establish what was meant to be said (my guess - there are firs in houses of Russian people, and either
          a) The firs are decorated by Russians, or
          b) The houses are decorated with firs.
My guess - a), as (b) sounds weird and not really what it is.

3. Once we know what it is - may the person with the best Russian language here put it into Russian and we'll be done with it.

4. After that we can discuss the cases of "ёлка".

PPS. The reference answer was correct but did not seem too palatable to me.


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## eni8ma

wonlon said:


> The reference answer: *В Новый год в д*о́*ме русских всегда украш*а́*ется ёлка.*
> 
> But why should *ёлка *be in nominative, not instrumental?
> I can't figure out the case agreements here.



Wonlon - I am not sure if this question was answered.

A literal translation is:
- В Новый год в до́ме русских всегда украша́ется ёлка.
- At New Year, in Russian homes, [is] always a decorated tree.

I think this might be a case of predicative nominative.  There is no proper verb here - "is" is implied.


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## morzh

eni8ma said:


> Wonlon - I am not sure if this question was answered.
> 
> A literal translation is:
> - В Новый год в до́ме русских всегда украша́ется ёлка.
> - At New Year, in Russian homes, [is] always a decorated tree.
> 
> I think this might be a case of predicative nominative.  There is no proper verb here - "is" is implied.




This is my guess to. Only I made it active "наряжают ёлку" (наряжать=украшать/красиво одевать (to dress nicely)) i/o reflexive "украшается ёлка" (I would still prefer "наряжается" - just like it better; not that there is something wrong with the other one).


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## morzh

Also correct me if I am wrong, but I think in English (and, for that matter, in Russian too) when "something is adorned with something", like "дома украшаются елками" (houses are decorated with firs/christmas trees) it implies that a house will display a tree outside, as a house decoration; otherwise it is typically said explicitly that the decoration is an inside decoration.

Like, "A house decorated with wreath" means "a wreath is displayed outside the house", not inside. 
But "The inside of a house is decorated with paper snowflakes and Santas" (The house is decorated inside with snowflakes and Santas) states ..well, it is obvious what it states.

So, a "house decorated with X-mas tree" personally to me creates an image of a house with a fir installed upon a roof or something.
This is why I do not like "house decorated with tree" idea, and I guessed it was the tree that was decorated by humans (Russian for that matter).


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## eni8ma

Well, without the original question from Wonlon's book, we don't know what the intention is.  He wondered 





wonlon said:


> Is there any problem with the reference answer?


It would seem not.  Then the poor bloke asked why it was nominative and got "snowed under"  with a variety of responses debating all manner of things.  The notion of houses (or families ) decorated with trees, whether inside or outside, is probably not the point of his exercise, or his question.

Seems like he just wants to get the grammar correct, and understand which case applies.


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## morzh

eni8ma said:


> Well, without the original question from Wonlon's book, we don't know what the intention is.  He wondered
> It would seem not.  Then the poor bloke asked why it was nominative and got "snowed under"  with a variety of responses debating all manner of things.  The notion of houses (or families ) decorated with trees, whether inside or outside, is probably not the point of his exercise, or his question.
> 
> Seems like he just wants to get the grammar correct, and understand which case applies.



That's what got me goat


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## wonlon

I just opened the forum again and cannot see the deleted messages. What happened seemed to be some argument. But I find you all helpful. There is no need to argue.

1. Posting Chinese original:
I think it doesn't help much. Since Chinese is way too difficult for foreigners. I translated the word "家庭" into "families" literally and later realized that in this context "homes" or "houses" makes more sense in English. But I am confident that my translation won't go too far from the basic meaning. 

2. The translation exercise is related to the main article of the chapter. It expects us to use words from the article. This is understandable since a new Russian learner's word pool is not big. In the passage "елка", "украшается" appeared, so I used it. I asked the questions because I don't understand the reference answer and also want to see if I am also correct, since there isn't just one translation.

I still need to figure out how the cases agree with each other. And other language matters.

I don't think this argument should have happened. I really feel helped already.


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## wonlon

eni8ma said:


> Well, without the original question from Wonlon's book, we don't know what the intention is.  He wondered
> It would seem not.  Then the poor bloke asked why it was nominative and got "snowed under"  with a variety of responses debating all manner of things.  The notion of houses (or families ) decorated with trees, whether inside or outside, is probably not the point of his exercise, or his question.
> 
> Seems like he just wants to get the grammar correct, and understand which case applies.



Actually sometimes the reference answers may be incorrect, too.  The book is good enough but have some mistakes. So I am alert if something doesn't feel right.

Even if it is right, I have to figure out how it works.

What I can't figure out is *украшается ёлка*. For you Russian, it is simple. But for us learners, I am stuck in it. I even need to ask why it is nominative, not instrumental, since it doesn't fit my understanding.

predicative nominative? Actually I already think that my problem is solved. You give me a new problem and you need to explain to me.


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## morzh

wonlon said:


> 1. Posting Chinese original:
> I think it doesn't help much. Since Chinese is way too difficult for  foreigners. I translated the word "家庭" into "families" literally and  later realized that in this context "homes" or "houses" makes more sense  in English. But I am confident that my translation won't go too far  from the basic meaning.



Exactly my point - the Chinese original 1) won't help much, 2)does not matter much either.
What matters is the situation described. The cultural/language  differences may render the Chinese original not well suited for close  enough translation.

2. I asked the questions because I don't understand the reference answer  and also want to see if I am also correct, since there isn't just one  translation.

I still need to figure out how the cases agree with each other. And other language matters.
[/QUOTE]

a) The reference answer is correct, but is is somewhat devoid of life. I am sure most Russians would say "наряжают ёлку".

The refеrence answer: *В Новый год в д*о́*ме русских всегда украш*а́*ется ёлка.*
The better version: *На Новый год в д*о́*мах у русских (всегда - I wouldn't use it; too much generalizing) обычно наряжают ёлку**.*

b) 

My answer (by Wonlon): *В Новый год в дома́х русских украша́**ется ёлком.*
The answer is incorrect for the following reasone:
1) The grammatically correct construct would be "Дома украшаются ёлкой/ёлками".
2) Тhis construct is hideous and is an ear-sore. Even if made grammatically correct.


c) How the cases work in the reference answer:
*В Новый год в д*о́*ме русских всегда украш*а́*ется ёлка.*

Here "ёлка" is the one that is being decorated. And it is the subject. The verb "украшается" is reflexive, is the predicate, and so this requires the subject noun to be in the nominative case.
In this case "украшается" is intransitive.
However, if it was used as transitive, and not with "ёлка", but with "дома" (let's remember, it is hideous, but for the sake of the demonstration it will do) then it would be:
"Дома украшаются ёлкой/ёлками".
Here again, reflexive "украшаются", now used with "дома" (subject), requires nominative, which it is, but now that it is transitive, and the object of the action is "ёлка/ёлки" (no longer the subject), it will require it to be in instrumental, so it would become "ёлкой/ёлками".


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## eni8ma

Wonlon - I am Australian.  I have suggested an answer to the problem of cases.  One of the Russians has agreed that this seems to be a good expalnation.


eni8ma said:


> A literal translation is:
> - В Новый год в до́ме русских всегда украша́ется ёлка.
> - At New Year, in Russian homes, [is] always a decorated tree.
> 
> I think this might be a case of predicative nominative.  There is no proper verb here - "is" is implied.


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## morzh

More examples:

Reflexive verbs:

Я дерусь (I fight / I am fighting). "Я" is in nominative (same as with "ёлка украшается").

Я дерусь кулаками и бейсбольной битой (I am fighting with my fists and with a baseball bat) - now the weapon, "by which I fight" is in instrumental.

PS. This is true for non-reflexive verbs also, but I limited myself to those only.
Basically the subject typically is in nominative. In "ёлка украшается" "ёлка" is the subject, and in "дома украшаются ёлкой" "дома" is the subject and "ёлка" is the object.


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## wonlon

morzh said:


> More examples:
> "дома украшаются ёлкой" "дома" is the subject and "ёлка" is the object.



I would say that "ёлка" is the instrument of action. Since it is the homes (the object) that is decorated, the means of action is ёлка > ёлкой.


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## wonlon

Originally Posted by *eni8ma* 

 
 				A literal translation is:
- В Новый год в до́ме русских всегда украша́ется ёлка.
- At New Year, in Russian homes, [is] always a decorated tree.

I think this might be a case of predicative nominative.  There is no proper verb here - "is" is implied.
***

I will understand
украша́ется ёлка as

the Chrismas tree (ёлка)[nom.](the subject) is decorated (украша́ется)[passive of украша́ть].

 *украшаться*

Universal (Ru-En)несов. - украшаться, сов. - украситься
 1) (становиться наряднее) adorn oneself
 2) страд. к украшать



украша́ется ёлка, if understood as predicate (a decorated tree), the subject just disappeared.
Unlike predicate nominative like *доктор* in *Петр - доктор*.


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## Rosett

maroseika said:


> Думаю, что совсем правильно было бы "елками" - ведь домов много, а елка - предмет.


в домах для украшения ставится ёлка .
Сколько нужно ёлок одному дому?


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## eni8ma

wonlon said:


> украша́ется ёлка, if understood as predicate (a decorated tree), the subject just disappeared.
> Unlike predicate nominative like *доктор* in *Петр - доктор*.


Fair enough - better English is:
- At New Year, in Russian homes, [there is] always a decorated tree.

Schaum Chapter 2, page 38 (on Nouns)


> _In Russian, the equivalent of the English linking verb to be, быть, generally is not used in the present tense, but its meaning is *always implied* in sentences with predicate nominatives._


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## Rosett

wonlon said:


> i would say that "ёлка" is the instrument of action. Since it is the homes (the object) that is decorated, the means of action is ёлка > ёлкой.


Правильно.
А ёлка наряжается ёлочными гирляндами и игрушками.
Такая же конструкция.


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## eni8ma

Here are some more cases for you 

- Почему мы украшаем елку на Рождество?
- Why do we decorate a tree at Christmas? (decorate is the active verb here)

on line two
- В каждом доме в эти  радостные дни украшается ёлка.
- In every home in these joyful days, [is] a decorated tree. (predicate nominative)


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## eni8ma

Even in English, in sentences beginning with _here_ or _there_, the subject follows the verb.
- There is a decorated tree.
- At New Year, in Russian homes, [there is] always a decorated tree.
- a decorated tree is thus predicate nominative


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## Natalisha

wonlon said:


> I will understand
> украша́ется ёлка as
> 
> the Chrismas tree (ёлка)[nom.](the subject) is decorated (украша́ется)[passive of украша́ть].


Yes, that's what I was going to write to you when I started to look through the thread.
In this sentence 'украшается елка' sounds better than 'елка украшается' because with this word order it means that the Christmas tree is decorated every year.
(Compare_: Елка украшается (сейчас). - The Cristmas tree is being decorated (now).)_
But from the point of view of grammar there's no diference whether the subject stands before the predicate or follows it. 'Елка' is the subject in both examples and 'украшается' is the predicate. It's clear that the tree can't decorate itself, so we use the passive voice in English.

Some more examples:
_моется посуда_
_стирается белье_
_покупаются подарки_


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## Natalisha

eni8ma said:


> A literal translation is:
> - В Новый год в до́ме русских всегда украша́ется ёлка.
> - At New Year, in Russian homes, [is] always a decorated tree.


I'm afraid I can't agree with you. 
The idea may be the same but reading the Russian sentence we also think about the process of decorating.

The literal translation of your English sentence is:

_В Новый год в русских домах (домах русских) всегда есть/находится* украшенная елка*_*.*


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## eni8ma

So,
- В Новый год в до́ме русских всегда украша́ется ёлка.
- At New Year, in Russian homes, always a tree is decorated.


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## Natalisha

eni8ma said:


> So,
> - В Новый год в до́ме русских всегда украша́ется ёлка.
> - At New Year, in Russian homes, always a tree is decorated.


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## wonlon

Just a small note:

There is an apple.
There are two apples.

In English, "there" is not the subject in such sentences. "There" + "be" is just an introductory form of existence.
The subject is post-located, "apple" or "apples", and the verb "be" agrees with it.

So in any sense, "apples" (or ёлка you try to say) cannot be a predicate.

Thus, the nominative predictive you mentioned is not valid.


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## Natalisha

wonlon said:


> Just a small note:
> 
> There is an apple.
> There are two apples.
> 
> In English, "there" is not the subject in such sentences. "There" + "be" is just an introductory form of existence.
> The subject is post-located, "apple" or "apples", and the verb "be" agrees with it.
> 
> So in any sense, "apples" (or ёлка you try to say) cannot be a predicate.
> 
> Thus, the nominative predictive you mentioned is not valid.


Look through this thread:
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=634486


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## justAnote

Мне не нравятся оба варианта.

"На новый год в России наряжают ёлку". Это если бы я сразу на русском писал и о тех, кто живет в России.
"Русские" и "семьи" тут выпущено. Если надо сказать о том, что это русская традиция, тогда "У русских на Новый год принято наряжать елку". 
И, кстати, еще можно сказать "На Новый год русские наряжают елку".

Я прочитал все 3 страницы. Мне кажется, вы упустили "*на* Новый год", а также возможность использовать третье лицо (наряжа*ют*), поэтому и решил написать.

PS. Это если decorate относится к елке, а если мы елочкой декорируем дом, тогда все еще проще.....
*На Новый год русские ставят дома (новогоднюю) елку.* (дома = в семье, поэтому тут уже _всё_ переведено


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