# умность - distinction from разу́мность



## metaphrastes

Ok, then I bumped into the word *умностию*, and I am not able to find any definition in any source besides Google translator that gave the meaning _"cleverness" _with no further explanations.

I parsed it as an archaic form of *умностью*, instrumental case of *умность*, whose lemma I could find here: Морфологический словарь русского языка, but again, with no further explanations or definitions.

In context, the word works well enough with the meaning of _cleverness _or anything loosely related with the root *ум*, such as _intelligence, wit, reason, rationality, good sense _or _common sense. _I found too the cognate word *разу́мность* that seems to be less archaic, as its definition is found in several sources, as _rationality, reasonableness _or _common sense.
_
I assume this specific sense of *разу́мность *is given by its prefix *раз-*. Then, my question is *1.* _how does this prefix work in general; _*2. *_how did this prefix worked in this particular case; _*3. *_what is the precise distinction in meaning, _if my homework is right and the lemma actually is *умность *as I guess.

Yes I know the context has the last word, and if needed I can give the quote. It just happens that in having some general principles from etymology and morphology, and relating them to concrete words, I use to learn and to fix information better than just working on concrete cases.

*PS: *I would be glad to confirm if *умность *is stressed in "*у*" too, as *разу́мность* is 
_
_


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## HotIcyDonut

Разумность means either someone's intelligence (someone is very clever, smart), sanity, rationality of thought/action or ability to think logically at all (e.g. даже если во Вселенной существуют другие цивилизации помимо человеческой, вероятность их разумности невелика)

Умность is only for intelligence and rationality

У is emphatic vowel, you are right


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## metaphrastes

HotIcyDonut said:


> Умность is only for intelligence and rationality



Thank you very much for the quick answer! Working on the text, I found that it contrasts *у́мность* with *лука́вство* (that some readers might be tempted to identify as being the same thing). Then, the text is perhaps using *у́мность* in a noble, exalted moral meaning, as sharply distinct from *лука́вство*. Or it might be playing with some double meaning in *у́мность* as bearing also the meaning of _cleverness _that often walks together with _craftiness, malevolence or malignity_, that is, *лука́вство*.

If *у́мность *actually bears only the "noble" sense, or maybe a morally neuter sense, then it is not hard to translate it as _reason. _If it actually bears a double meaning (similar to *разу́мность*), the solution may be harder to find.

Just thinking aloud with my *ум  *Thanks again.


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## Vovan

*Умность *- 1) чья-то умность (someone's being intelligent, educated, smart (=bright), etc.
_Его умность многих впечатлила._​2)_ разг., иногда ироничн.,  исчисл_. умная вещь (говоримая или делаемая кем-то)
_Засыпал нас умностями из учебников по философии.
_​*Разумность *- человека, идеи, решения (someone's or something's being reasonable, sensible, etc.). And yes, as Donut said, the word is used in relation to various non-human creatures and their intellect (see Homo *Sapiens *- Человек Разумный).
_Разумны ли бактерии? = Есть ли у бактерий разум? (Are they able to think?)_​
"Умность" sounds like an artificial noun and is rarely used (at least, today***), while "разумность" is part of everyday vocabulary.


_______
*** We'll just say "ум", "интеллект" in my first example:
_Его ум/интеллект многих впечатлил._​


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## metaphrastes

Vovan said:


> "Умность" sounds like an artificial noun and is rarely used (at least, today***), while "разумность" is part of everyday vocabulary


Thank you very much, Vovan, that was my impression. After having some general overview on the words, I will give some context to see if it helps in some way to clarify the distinction in "high-resolution view".

The text is from the spiritual writer Saint Theophan the Recluse, who lived and wrote through XIX century (‎†‎ 1894). It is a very short comment, but it is dense it that it works around some cognate words as *ум* and *у́мность* as contrasted with *лука́вство*.

The comment begins by speaking on the *лука́вый ум* of the unbelieving Scribes.

The harder sentence is here: "Разбери́ все его́ предъявле́ния (of the skeptical unbelievers), и уви́дишь, что все в них одно́ лука́вство, хоть на его́ языке́ э́то слывёт *у́мностию*, та́к что нево́льно прихо́дишь к заключе́нию, что *у́мность* и *лука́вство* одно́ и то́ же".

It seems me the most apt term to render *у́мность *here would be _*intelligence*_, since it both contains the idea _mind, mental powers or faculties _as well the "bright" trait associated with _wits, cleverness, smartness, sagacity _and also the potentially negative connotation of _astuteness _or _craftiness, _though the related aspect of selfishness, deception and malice (лука́вство) is not immediately implied or suggested.

Again just thinking aloud in my *ум*, though not with any remarkable *у́мностию*. Any thoughts or suggestions are welcome.


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## Rosett

metaphrastes said:


> Again just thinking aloud in my *ум*, though not with any remarkable *у́мностью*. Any thoughts or suggestions are welcome.


This kind of mental block can be perfectly described by a Russian saying: "У меня (от всего этого) *ум за разум заходит*", that demonstrates clearly the relation between these terms related to thinking: you need both mental features in order to be able to think, but they must not go in the way of each other.

You may also want to compare "(всякие) умности" vs "разумные вещи" (both plural):

"Он еще не насытил свою буйную душу, а ты тут всякие умности разводишь! Мужчине не нужны умности. Тем более нам – поэтам в душах." (A disparaging term meaning the things that are too clever given the situation; we don't need you woman be too clever with men, especially with those having "poetic soul.")

"Так, многие женщины говорят совершенно разумные вещи голосом маленькой девочки, но уверенным тоном. Здесь мы наблюдаем компромисс между ..." (A neutral term describing things that are adequate to the situation.)


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## metaphrastes

Rosett said:


> This kind of mental block can be perfectly described by a Russian saying: "Ум за разум заходит", that demonstrates clearly the relation between these terms related to thinking


Thank you, Rosett, for the hint, it seems promising. Could you please elaborate a little bit on that, since it too у́мно for my weak lights, or maybe too остроу́мно.


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## Rosett

metaphrastes said:


> Thank you, Rosett, for the hint, it seems promising. Could you please elaborate a little bit on that, since it too у́мно for my weak lights, or maybe too остроу́мно.


I'd say that the spearhead of your own advanced thinking (wit, ум, regarded as a leading, eccentric feature of мышление) must not contradict or overshadow or offend or go in any other way against the shield of your own reasoning (разум) based on the common sense (that would normally protect but not advance you.) If not, you might get stuck in a mental block (ум за разум зашёл). That's the spiritual rendition of how I can see it.


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## intruder

Navegando na internet, topei com uma sugestão bacana, tentando explicar a diferença entre "умность" и "разумность". (Pô, a palavra "умность" ficou sublinhada em vermelho significando que é muito rara que nem tá presente no dicionário do fórum). 

_"Это проявляется обычно из-за того, что умность является тормозом разумности" 
_
Traduzindo como 
"Geralmente isso fica evidente porque _умность _é um empecilho no caminho de _разумность"
_
Em outras palavras _разумность _é sagacidade, perspicácia, sensatez (em alguns casos até intuição... uma habilidade de entender profundamente, com coração)
quando _умность _é mais ligada à artimanha (inteligência, lógica, raciocínio). 

Resumindo, 
Uma inteligência exagerada nos impede de ver o âmago das coisas.


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## metaphrastes

ОБРИГАДУ!


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## Cheburator

I would say that in modern speach, one would harldy ever say "умность" in the sense of "someone's intelligence";  people always say "ум". 
_Его умность многих впечатлила._ => Его ум многих впечатлил. ("умность" sounds here a bit weird to me, like something old-fashioned)

As for the second meaning, (something clever that's been said or done), it is indeed used in modern speach, but not too often.
_сыпать умностями_ => умничать ("_сыпать умностями" is an excessively sophisticated phrase for everyday speach)_


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## Rosett

Cheburator said:


> I would say that in modern speach, one would harldy ever say "умность" in the sense of "someone's intelligence";  people always say "ум".
> _Его умность многих впечатлила._ => Его ум многих впечатлил. ("умность" sounds here a bit weird to me, like something old-fashioned)


A plausible definition can be given as following:
"*Умность как качество личности –  способность обладать ясным, толковым умом, иметь существенный объём нереализованного, не апробированного знания."
*
It can be seen as an antonym to "тупость" rather than to "глупость".

Indeed, it can be found in the play and can sound right in the appropriate context:

"17 mars 2016 - Умность и неумность россиян. Меня поражает, насколько россияне хитры, умны, изобретательны в решении частных или корыстных ..."

"5 nov. 2012 - 11:24 pm - Умность и не только - Яся, - говорю, - вот ты умная, добрая и красивая девочка, так? - Так, - говорит Яся. - Тогда скажи – какое ..."

"30 août 2006 - Иными словами, папа к умности ребёнка отношения не имеет)) Вот жаль что ничего про девочек не написано, от кого у них “умность” ???"


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## Stan0

Умность устаревшее, насколько я понимаю.
В сказках можно встретить умница-разумница.


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## Vovan

Stan0 said:


> В сказках можно встретить умница-разумница.


А в жизни - их уже нет?

Я бы сказал, что о любимых дочерях (и даже, иногда, о своих любимых девушках или жёнах) так в полушутку говорят и сейчас:
_Она у меня умница-разумница!_​


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## Stan0

Да-да, можно конечно. Просто это как "очи", которые мы практически используем только в цитатах.


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## Rosett

Stan0 said:


> Да-да, можно конечно. Просто это как "очи", которые мы практически используем только в цитатах.


Вероятно, вы основываете своё утверждение на собственном ограниченном опыте.


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## Cheburator

Rosett said:


> Вероятно, вы основываете своё утверждение на собственном ограниченном опыте.


Я прям ярко представляю, как вы говорите, например, коллеге по работе: "Блесни своей умностию, глядя мне в очи"


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## Vovan

Cheburator said:


> _сыпать умностями_ => умничать ("_сыпать умностями" is an excessively sophisticated phrase for everyday speach)_


Oh, come on, Cheburator!
Did you try googling?
Just have a look at the style employed:


> А сыпать умностями и названиями фирм, представительств которых в городе может *тупо* не быть,вряд ли поможет людям,которые уже...





> ...Услышал разницу, но не может объяснить что произошло и из-за чего; в основном тут же все *кидаются* сыпать умностями.





> *Чудеса. ))))))))))*(я не настолько серьезный человек , что бы сыпать умностями на все подряд)



I would say that "умничать" means "(to try) to sound too smart/reasonable/sophisticated... (to one's partners in communication)". Often, when criticising someone else's actions. Often, unintentionally.
And "(за)сыпать умностями" stresses the fact the desired aim was (has been) reached (however irritating or overwhelming that was for those who now have to make the confession). It's more about abstract topics than partners in communication.
_Не умничай, умник!
Что разумничался, а? Самый умный, что ли? Вот взял бы и сам всё сделал, как "надо"!
Он просто засыпал нас умностями. Некоторым девочкам даже понравилось!.._​


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## rusita preciosa

Mod note: The topic has been fully explored; the thread is now closed.


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