# no win situation



## Elisabeth

a no win situation
to want nothing to do with it
are there equivalents to these phrases in french please?


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## Jabote

no win situation = une solution dans laquelle tout le monde est perdant. Une solution perdante pour tout le monde
to want nothing to do with it = ne rien vouloir savoir de quelque chose, ne rien vouloir voir à faire avec quelque chose


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## timpeac

Would "situation difficile sans issue" work here for "no-win situation"?


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## Jabote

I don't think so tim, as a no-win situation is not necessarily one that is "sans issue". I mean there could be an "issue".... except that it would not be satisfactory for any party


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## timpeac

Ok, but just to check we have the same interpretation of the English word "no-win situation". You seem to be interpreting it as "for the two parties involved there is no solution that will please either of them".

However, I think "no-win situation" usually refers to one person. It is where you have a choice of various options but none of them are satisfactory for you. So I could say "I am in a no-win situation, if I go to work then they'll sack me for being late and if I don't go then they will sack me for not turning up at all". For me there is no "issue" from this situation.

We can also say "I am between a rock and a hard place here" (eg I can't go either way).


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## Jabote

AAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH ! That's right, you can also interpret it this way, I had not thought about it ! When I read "no-win situation", I immediately thought of the opposite of a "win-win situation".... Well then I guess a little context would not hurt !


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## timpeac

Would my suggestion be acceptable in this context?

EDIT - thinking about it I suppose your interpretation could be right in English too. As you say, a little context goes a long way...


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## Jabote

Well.... to me it is not the same, but this is only me (very non-committal, huh ?!)


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## massie1

Hi timpeac.

In the example you provided, you are truly between a rock and a hard place, rather than in a no-win situation.  In my view, you're between a rock and a hard place when you're the only involved, as in your example.  However, if more than one person is involved, it becomes a no-win situation.

Hope this helps.

Marcel.


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## timpeac

Hi Marcel. Well that was what Jabote thought too, but I've definitely use "a no-win situation" to refer to one person. I think I've seen both usages (since whether it's one person not winning either way or two people neither of them winning, it's still no-win!!). As always on the forums we really need the original context to know for sure which is meant.


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## Elisabeth

The context: from an article about _SDF_, that says that over the centuries there have been many different attempts to get rid of _mendiants _ and _vagabonds_ ie imprisonment, hard labour etc, and so far no one has really found an effective solution, as they're not tackling the problem properly. Is this a no win situation?


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## timpeac

Ah ok. I wouldn't say this was a no-win situation (at least not in any of the definitions above). This is a problem for which no solution has yet been found. Just a difficult problem to my mind!!

What do you think?


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## Elisabeth

I think it's ok to say "this is a problem that has so far proven to be a no win situation". I wouldn't think it odd if I heard that said.


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## rayb

In the win win thread, this same issue has been analized too.

In particular, it has been recalled that, in accordance to the theory of games the following situations might appear:

1) Win-Win = Positive Sum game = Gagnant - Gagnant = Jeu à somme positive = In a game with 2 players, at the end of the day both win;

2) No Win = Negative Sum game = Perdant - Perdant = Jeu à somme negative = In a game with 2 players, at the end of the day both lose;

3) Zero Sum game = Jeu à somme nulle =  In a game with 2 players, at the end of the day what one player earns the other one loses.


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## sillysillychristina

timpeac said:
			
		

> Ah ok. I wouldn't say this was a no-win situation (at least not in any of the definitions above). This is a problem for which no solution has yet been found. Just a difficult problem to my mind!!
> 
> What do you think?


 
Agreed...that is not really a no win situation...it just seems to be a hard problem to solve.

The best way to decribe a no win situation is "damned if you do, damned if you don't", and "stuck between a rock and a hard place". They both refer to a situation where no possible outcome can be positive...only negative for those invloved.


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## rayb

sillysillychristina said:
			
		

> Agreed...that is not really a no win situation...it just seems to be a hard problem to solve.
> 
> The best way to decribe a no win situation is "damned if you do, damned if you don't", and "stuck between a rock and a hard place". They both refer to a situation where no possible outcome can be positive...only negative for those invloved.


 
However, the question is not what is a "non win situation", but how do you say it in French.

IMO, "jeu a somme negative" would be an alternative.


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## sillysillychristina

Elisabeth said:
			
		

> The context: from an article about _SDF_, that says that over the centuries there have been many different attempts to get rid of _mendiants _and _vagabonds_ ie imprisonment, hard labour etc, and so far no one has really found an effective solution, as they're not tackling the problem properly. Is this a no win situation?


 
Yes but Rayb...the above qoute does not amount to a no win situation. So one should not use that term to describe it...whether in French or English.


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## Jabote

To be stuck between a rock and a hard place has its equivalent in French, which is "être pris entre le marteau et l'enclume" and the meaning is not the same as a no-win situation... although it definitely is one !


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## rayb

sillysillychristina said:
			
		

> Yes but Rayb...the above qoute does not amount to a no win situation. So one should not use that term to describe it...whether in French or English.


 
You really are not so silly Christina. In effect, even if the author calls this situation a "no win situation" , clearly it isn't one.

In this context, IMO, the final question should be translated by: "Cést un dilemme sans solutions, alors?"


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## rayb

Jabote said:
			
		

> To be stuck between a rock and a hard place has its equivalent in French, which is "être pris entre le marteau et l'enclume" and the meaning is not the same as a no-win situation... although it definitely is one !


 
However, I could hardly qualify the siuation described in the document quoted as being  stuck between a rock and a hard place.


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## Jabote

rayb said:
			
		

> However, I could hardly qualify the siuation described in the document quoted as being stuck between a rock and a hard place.


 
That is exactly what I meant ! The French expression "entre le marteau et l'enclume" is incorrect here just as much as the English "to be stuck between a rock and a hard place" is. By "even if it is one", I just meant that to be stuck between a rock and a hard place is definitely a no-win situation ...


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## rayb

Jabote said:
			
		

> That is exactly what I meant ! The French expression "entre le marteau et l'enclume" is incorrect here just as much as the English "to be stuck between a rock and a hard place" is. By "even if it is one", I just meant that to be stuck between a rock and a hard place is definitely a no-win situation ...


 
Misfortunately, I can't agree with your statement that "to be stuck between a rock and a hard place is definitely a no-win situation". In effect, to the extent that the business schools all arround the world have been teaching their students the concepts of "win win" and "no win" as some of the outcomes of a two players match, the more and more the meaning of these expressions is widely associated too to the description of confrontational situations between 2 players or 2 choices. IMO, neither "to be stuck between a rock and a hard place" or the situation described  in the quoted document can be qualified as confrontational situasions.


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## beri

Jabote said:
			
		

> to want nothing to do with it = ne rien vouloir savoir de quelque chose, ne rien vouloir voir à faire avec quelque chose



I reckon you meant "ne rien vouloir avoir à faire avec qqch" ?


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## Jabote

beri said:
			
		

> I reckon you meant "ne rien vouloir avoir à faire avec qqch" ?


 
You reckon right beri, my "a" key got stuck in the keyboard it seems ! Sorry !


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## DearPrudence

More than a year later   

So in the end, would there be a pithy translation for that phrase?
What do you think of:
*"une situation où l'on ne peut que perdre"* (but not short)
*"une situation critique/impossible"*

Any good ideas?


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## Nicomon

Elisabeth said:
			
		

> I think it's ok to say "this is a problem that has so far proven to be a no win situation". I wouldn't think it odd if I heard that said.



Just a thought... could we replace "no win situation" with "unsolvable", in the quote above?

And French would become "insoluble" or "irrésoluble"

Something like.. "*un problème qui s'est avéré jusqu'à ce jour irrésoluble/insoluble*" 

Qu’il est impossible de résoudre. Un problème insoluble. Une équation insoluble.


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## Gutenberg

Elisabeth said:


> The context: from an article about _SDF_, that says that over the centuries there have been many different attempts to get rid of _mendiants _ and _vagabonds_ ie imprisonment, hard labour etc, and so far no one has really found an effective solution, as they're not tackling the problem properly. Is this a no win situation?



I would say:

C'est une situation pour laquelle personne n'a encore trouvé de vraie solution.

Just the way it is said in English in the text.


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## edwingill

I would suggest une situation de perdant-perdant


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## Punky Zoé

C'est un échec ou c'est une situation d'échec?


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