# إذا - لمّا



## Student4Life

Just a quick question on Zuroof such as Lammaa and Izaa
Grammatically, the sentence following the Zuroof will be Mudhaaf towards it. Will the Zuroof become Mafool Fihi for the verb in the Jawaab or the main verb of the sentence? I've read that it becomes Muta'alliq - is there a difference in calling it Muta'alliq and Mafool Fihi?
Thanks


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## rayloom

They're a muta3alliq for the jawaab.
The muta3alliq is the shibh jumlah, which is either comprised of the Zarf (and it's muDaaf ilayhi if it has one), or a preposition and it's object.
The Zarf remains a maf3uul fiihi, and the shibh jumlah becomes the muta3alliq. The muta3alliq can be a muta3alliq of a verb, or a muta3alliq of a certain part of syntax.
الطير فوق الشجرة here fawqa is a maf3uul fihi, and the shibh jumlah "fawqa 'sh-shajarah" is a muta3alliq of a محذوف في محل رفع خبر.


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## Student4Life

JazakAllah for the reply

What do we connect it to in this Aayah:
فَإِذَا رَكِبُوا فِي الْفُلْكِ دَعَوُا اللَّهَ مُخْلِصِينَ لَهُ الدِّينَ فَلَمَّا نَجَّاهُمْ إِلَى الْبَرِّ إِذَا هُمْ يُشْرِكُونَ


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## Student4Life

An additional question about Zuroof and Mafool Fihi - Zarf is always Mafool Fihi but will become Muta'alliq, whereas a standard Mafool Fihi like Yawm - I believe, will not be Muta'alliq? Based on this, which words are Zarf?

I think I may be confused here!! Therefore request your help!!


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## rayloom

Student4Life said:


> JazakAllah for the reply
> 
> What do we connect it to in this Aayah:
> فَإِذَا رَكِبُوا فِي الْفُلْكِ دَعَوُا اللَّهَ مُخْلِصِينَ لَهُ الدِّينَ فَلَمَّا نَجَّاهُمْ إِلَى الْبَرِّ إِذَا هُمْ يُشْرِكُونَ


Here "lammaa" is the Zarf ظرف متضمن معنى الشرط, the jumla (نجاهم إلى البر) is syntactically a mudaaf ilayhi for lammaa, and the shibh jumla فَلَمَّا نَجَّاهُمْ إِلَى الْبَرِّ is connected to the jawaab "إذا هم يشركون" (here إذا is فجائية, not a Zarf).



Student4Life said:


> An additional question about Zuroof and Mafool Fihi - Zarf is always Mafool Fihi but will become Muta'alliq, whereas a standard Mafool Fihi like Yawm - I believe, will not be Muta'alliq? Based on this, which words are Zarf?
> 
> I think I may be confused here!! Therefore request your help!!



Zarf = maf3uul fihi

muta3alliq is a word describing the shibh jumla commencing with a Zarf (maf3uul fihi) or a preposition. It means that this shibh jumlah has no direct syntactical position, it's instead linked to either a verb or a "hypothesized" محذوف which has a syntactic position.
(Just forget about the words muta3alliq & maf3uul fihi)!


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## zj73

إذا is used for the future while لما is used for the past. But they both mean "when".


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## Romeel

zj73 said:


> إذا is used for the future while لما is used for the past. But they both mean "when".


Can you write an examples?


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## Qureshpor

Romeel said:


> Can you write an examples?


ٰ I believe this applied to the older language, not to MSA.

إذا کنتَ کذوباً فکن ذکوراً

کن ممّن إذا قال فعل

فلمّا أراد الرّجل أن یسرق قال في نفسه إن سرقتُ و سألني عن ھذا  رسول اللّه فما أقول له جواباً؟ إذا قلتُ نعم قطع یدي وإن قلتُ لا خنتُ العھد بالکذب۔۔۔۔۔۔

أخذتُ أنا منھا أخبازاً کثیرۃً و لمّا وصلتُ إلی بیتي وضعتُھا علی رفّ


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## Romeel

I asked him to make the reader understand who he was referring to, so without examples he might mean something else, and we get into the circle of guesswork.



Qureshpor said:


> ٰ I believe this applied to the older language, not to MSA.


لِمَ تظنّ ذلك؟


Qureshpor said:


> إذا کنتَ کذوباً فکن ذکوراً
> 
> کن ممّن إذا قال فعل
> 
> فلمّا أراد الرّجل أن یسرق قال في نفسه إن سرقتُ و سألني عن ھذا  رسول اللّه فما أقول له جواباً؟ إذا قلتُ نعم قطع یدي وإن قلتُ لا خنتُ العھد بالکذب۔۔۔۔۔۔
> 
> أخذتُ أنا منھا أخبازاً کثیرۃً و لمّا وصلتُ إلی بیتي وضعتُھا علی رفّ


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## Qureshpor

Romeel said:


> I asked him to make the reader understand who he was referring to, so without examples he might mean something else, and we get into the circle of guesswork.


That is the reason I provided examples and I agree with him.


Romeel said:


> لِمَ تظنّ ذلك؟





Qureshpor said:


> إذا کنتَ کذوباً فکن ذکوراً
> 
> کن ممّن إذا قال فعل
> 
> فلمّا أراد الرّجل أن یسرق قال في نفسه إن سرقتُ و سألني عن ھذا رسول اللّه فما أقول له جواباً؟ إذا قلتُ نعم قطع یدي وإن قلتُ لا خنتُ العھد بالکذب۔۔۔۔۔۔
> 
> أخذتُ أنا منھا أخبازاً کثیرۃً و لمّا وصلتُ إلی بیتي وضعتُھا علی رفّ


Yes, I believe these examples prove that إذا is being used for present/future and لمّا for past events. There are plenty of examples in the Qur'an.

1. When you are prone to lying , then have a good memory. (إذا used for present/future)

2. Be amongst those who when they say (something), they act (on it). (إذا used for present/future)

3. So when the man wanted to steal (lammaa used for a past event), he said to himself, "If I steal and the God's messenger asks me about it, if I say yes, he will cut my hand and if I say no, I have betrayed the pact with a lie...".

4. I took many loaves of bread from her and when I reached my house, I put them on a shelf. (lammaa used for past event)


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## Romeel

Qureshpor said:


> ٰ I believe this applied to the older language, not to MSA.


Why you believe it is not used in MSA?


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## Qureshpor

zj73 said:


> إذا is used for the future while لما is used for the past. But they both mean "when".





Qureshpor said:


> I believe this applied to the older language, not to MSA.



My understanding is that in MSA إذا has replaced إن almost wholly and it (إذا) now means mainly "if" and not "when". Again my understanding is that in MSA لمّا is used rarely being replaced by other words for "when" like عندما.


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## Romeel

Qureshpor said:


> My understanding is that in MSA إذا has replaced إن almost wholly and it (إذا) now means maininly "if" and not "when". Again my understanding is that in MSA لمّا is used rarely being replaced by other words for "when" like عندما.


Maybe... I don't know


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## Mahaodeh

Qureshpor said:


> My understanding is that in MSA إذا has replaced إن almost wholly and it (إذا) now means mainly "if" and not "when". Again my understanding is that in MSA لمّا is used rarely being replaced by other words for "when" like عندما.


I don’t think that this is true.


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## Qureshpor

Mahaodeh said:


> I don’t think that this is true.


I formed this view, if my memory serves me right, on the basis of reading excerpts from "Modern Arabic: Structures, Functions and Varieties -  by Clive Holes, 2004 edition. I also remember seeing a chart in this or another book which showed the meaning of إن and إذا (perhaps لو as well?) on the one hand and إذا and لمّا on the other, which showed the meaning shift. This is confirmed by Tareeq Rubaye Khalaf Alfraidi in his article below (submitted for his PhD thesis in Arab and Islamic studies in 2017 at Exceter University in March 2017) on page 141. If you can't open the link, just type "Conditional Sentences in Modern Written Arabic" and this article will be somewhere at the top of your search.

https://ore.exeter.ac.uk/repository/bitstream/handle/10871/29279/AlfraidiT.pdf?sequence=1

He himself does not agree with this assertion and gives his own research results.

MWA means "Modern Written Arabic".


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## Romeel

Qureshpor said:


> My understanding is that in MSA إذا has replaced إن almost wholly and it (إذا) now means mainly "if" and not "when". Again my understanding is that in MSA لمّا is used rarely being replaced by other words for "when" like عندما.


I find it hard for me to believe that, as in real life I can easily write/say
إذا غادر المدير غادروا When the manager leaves, you leave
and it will be understood by most Arabs as translated

I don't think the modern language is that strict.


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## Ibn Nacer

Salut,

I also read several authors say that إن has been replaced by إذا ...
Some of these authors have based on corpus ...

What must be understood is that إذا is used to express a real condition (potential), in english that corresponds to the conditional sentence of type 1.

But sometimes the use of إذا goes further: some use it instead of لو to express an unreal condition (supposition), in english that corresponds to the conditional sentence of type 2 and 3.

And إذا is also used to express the conditional sentence of type 0 (present or past).

I have often wondered what is the meaning of إذا in classical Arabic, I saw several examples where this word seems to express the conditional phrase of type 0 (present or past) ...




Romeel said:


> إذا غادر المدير غادروا When the manager leaves, you leave


This example seems to correspond to (in english) a conditional sentence of type 0 (present) ... This type of sentence often express a habit, a rule, a law ...

But when some say that إذا has been replaced by إن I think they especially want to talk about the conditional sentence of type 1 that express a real condition (potential).

And as already said: some use it instead of لو to express an unreal condition (supposition), in english that corresponds to the conditional sentence of type 2 and 3.

Here is a thread where we talked about that : إذا كان يجلس مثلي في الصف


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## Qureshpor

Romeel said:


> إذا غادر المدير غادروا When the manager leaves, you leave
> and it will be understood by most Arabs as translated


I think the Arabs will understand this as, "When the manager leaves, they will leave".


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## Qureshpor

Ibn Nacer said:


> I have often wondered what is the meaning of إذا in classical Arabic, I saw several examples where this word seems to express the conditional phrase of type 0 (present or past) ...


إن طلعت الشّمسُ فأتني x

إذا طلعت الشّمسُ فأتني ✓

فلمّا أراد الرّجل أن یسرق قال في نفسه إن سرقتُ و سألني عن ھذا رسول اللّه فما أقول له جواباً؟ إذا قلتُ نعم قطع یدي وإن قلتُ لا خنتُ العھد بالکذب۔۔۔۔۔۔

And when the man decided to steal, he said to himself, "If I steal (which is unlikely) and the Propeht of God asks me about it, what am I going to say to him in reply? When (because I am likely to tell the truth) I say yes, he will cut my hand and if I say no, I have betrayed the pact with a lie.


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## Ibn Nacer

Qureshpor said:


> I think the Arabs will understand this as, "When the manager leaves, they will leave".


Personally, I understand that this example corresponds to a conditional sentence of type 0. This type of sentence often expresses a habit, a rule, a law ... So in this type of sentence إذا has the meaning of "when", "whenever", "if (scientist) " and in the translation we use *verbs in the present tense *(timeless).

See this example : إذا دخلنا المسجد صلينا ركعتين




Qureshpor said:


> إن طلعت الشّمسُ فأتني x
> 
> إذا طلعت الشّمسُ فأتني ✓
> 
> فلمّا أراد الرّجل أن یسرق قال في نفسه إن سرقتُ و سألني عن ھذا رسول اللّه فما أقول له جواباً؟ إذا قلتُ نعم قطع یدي وإن قلتُ لا خنتُ العھد بالکذب۔۔۔۔۔۔
> 
> And when the man decided to steal, he said to himself, "If I steal (which is unlikely) and the Propeht of God asks me about it, what am I going to say to him in reply? When (because I am likely to tell the truth) I say yes, he will cut my hand and if I say no, I have betrayed the pact with a lie.



- Thanks. Yes I knew this use of إذا... And I have often wondered if the meaning was "when + verb in future tense"...
But if we translate like that, is it always a conditional sentence?

- But as already said I also saw several examples where إذا seems to express the conditional sentence of type 0 (present or past) ...


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## Qureshpor

Ibn Nacer said:


> Thanks. Yes I knew this use of إذا... And I have often wondered if the meaning was "when + verb in future tense"...
> But if we translate like that, is it always a conditional sentence?


No, it is not a conditional sentence. Surah 81 of the Qur'an is a good example of the use of إِذَا for future events (on the day of judgement), e.g

إِذَا ٱلشَّمْسُ كُوِّرَتْ Qur'an 81:1

And when the sun is shrouded in darkness.


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## Mahaodeh

Qureshpor said:


> No, it is not a conditional sentence. Surah 81 of the Qur'an is a good example of the use of إِذَا for future events (on the day of judgement), e.g
> 
> إِذَا ٱلشَّمْسُ كُوِّرَتْ Qur'an 81:1


Actually, this _is_ conditional. جواب الشرط is in Aya 14: عَلِمَتْ نَفْسٌ مَا أَحْضَرَتْ.


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## Mahaodeh

Qureshpor said:


> And when the sun is shrouded in darkness.


Why did you add an “and” at the beginning?


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## Qureshpor

Mahaodeh said:


> Why did you add an “and” at the beginning?


My mistake! Sorry. The rest of the translation is from Abdel Haleem.


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## Mahaodeh

Ibn Nacer said:


> But if we translate like that, is it always a conditional sentence?


إذا is mostly conditional, however, it can be adverbial (ظرفية) giving the meaning of “at the time of” or “at that time”. It can also be فجائية, with the meaning of “suddenly” or “unexpectedly” or something in that line.
For the first an example would be: وَاللَّيْلِ إِذَا سَجَىٰ - سورة الضحى.

For the second, I don’t recall any specific text so I’ll make up an example: دخلنا البيت فإذا برجل جالس, or ذهبنا إلى البحر فإذا هي تمطر.


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## Qureshpor

Mahaodeh said:


> Actually, this _is_ conditional. جواب الشرط is in Aya 14: عَلِمَتْ نَفْسٌ مَا أَحْضَرَتْ.


Yes, you are right but it is not a conditional of the "if...then" type. I don't think "When --then" type of sentences are considered as conditionals in English and that's probably what I had in mind.


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## Mahaodeh

Qureshpor said:


> Yes, you are right but it is not a conditional of the "if...then" type. I don't think "When --then" type of sentences are considered as conditionals in English and that's pr5obably what I had in mind.


But they are conditional in Arabic and we are talking about Arabic. You are correct in that إذا doesn’t have to be conditional, you just gave the wrong example 🙂. I understand why though, as it’s quite long and you have eleven إذا before جواب الشرط comes.


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## Qureshpor

Mahaodeh said:


> But they are conditional in Arabic and we are talking about Arabic. You are correct in that إذا doesn’t have to be conditional, you just gave the wrong example 🙂. I understand why though, as it’s quite long and you have eleven إذا before جواب الشرط comes.


Thank you for this. Would sentences with لماّ also be considered as conditional in Arabic grammar theory, like the sentence quoted in another thread, which in one of the posts I think I described as ظرف. In some notes handed to us by our Arabic teacher, لمّا is one of the أدواۃ الشرط.

ًفلَمَّا رَبَضَ أتَى إِلَيْهِ جُرَذٌ يَمْشِي عَلى ظهْرِهِ فوَثَبَ قائِما


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## Ibn Nacer

Romeel said:


> إذا غادر المدير غادروا When the manager leaves, you leave


I just realized that you translate the verb غادروا by "you leave" so for you this verb is in imperative غَا*دِ*رُوا not غَا*دَ*رُوا ?

For me the verb غادروا is in the past ("they leave")  غَا*دَ*رُوا not غَا*دِ*رُوا ... 

Because If we want to use the imperative it seems to me that we must add the particle *al-faa'* before the verb...


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## Romeel

Ibn Nacer said:


> I just realized that you translate the verb غادروا by "you leave" so for you this verb is in imperative غَا*دِ*رُوا not غَا*دَ*رُوا ?
> 
> For me the verb غادروا is in the past ("they leave")  غَا*دَ*رُوا not غَا*دِ*رُوا ...
> 
> Because If we want to use the imperative it seems to me that we must add the particle *al-faa'* before the verb...


This is not what I wanted to write

إذا غادر المدير غادَروا is correct but not what I want to say
إذا غادر المدير (فـ)غادِروا this what I meant

غادِروا فعل أمر = Leave (order them to leave)

you can add ف but it will be the same meaning for me as an Arabic native

I'm not sure about the grammar but for me *al-faa' *is not a must!


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## Qureshpor

Ibn Nacer said:


> I just realized that you translate the verb غادروا by "you leave" so for you this verb is in imperative غَا*دِ*رُوا not غَا*دَ*رُوا ?
> 
> For me the verb غادروا is in the past ("they leave")  غَا*دَ*رُوا not غَا*دِ*رُوا ...
> 
> Because If we want to use the imperative it seems to me that we must add the particle *al-faa'* before the verb...


I pointed this out in # 18 although I must confess I had forgotten about the faa before the imperative.


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## Qureshpor

Romeel said:


> I'm not sure about the grammar but for me *al-faa' *is not a must!


I believe for فعل أمر you need a فَ at the beginning in a conditional sentence and it's not optional.


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## Romeel

Qureshpor said:


> I believe for فعل أمر you need a فَ at the beginning in a conditional sentence and it's not optional.


Its up to you

But whatever you say, I still believe it is correct without it.


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## Ibn Nacer

Salut,


Romeel said:


> This is not what I wanted to write


Yes I know that it is not what you wanted to write but without the vowels someone who knows the rule (concerning the particle al-faa') will think that it is rather the verb غَا*دَ*رُوا that the verb غَا*دِ*رُوا ...



Romeel said:


> I'm not sure about the grammar but for me *al-faa' *is not a must!





Romeel said:


> But whatever you say, I still believe it is correct without it.


There are often special cases in grammar so you may be right ...



Qureshpor said:


> I pointed this out in # 18 although I must confess I had forgotten about the faa before the imperative.



Oh yes you are right, in the end I think that the sentence إذا غادر المدير غادروا can therefore have two meanings:

_- _When the manager leaves they will leave. (as you have translated in message #18)
- When/whenever the manager leaves, they leave.

 In the second case we have the structure ("when/whenever + two verbs in present tense") that corresponds to a conditional sentence of type 0...



Ibn Nacer said:


> Here I understand that this is a usual/general situation/habit (conditional sentence of type 0) : _When/whenever the manager leaves, they  leave_ ("when/whenever + two verbs in present tense").
> 
> But if we use إن, the meaning changes: we are talking about a specific case (conditional sentence of type 1), I would then translate by "If + verb in present tense + verb in futur tense) : _If the manager leaves they will leave._


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## Ibn Nacer

Qureshpor said:


> I think the Arabs will understand this as, "When the manager leaves, they will leave".


So why haven't you translated this sentence إذا تجتھدُ تنجحُ  with the same structure (when you strive, you will be successful) ?



Qureshpor said:


> إذا تجتھدُ تنجحُ If you strive, you will be successful.


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## Qureshpor

Ibn Nacer said:


> So why haven't you translated this sentence إذا تجتھدُ تنجحُ with the same structure (when you strive, you will be successful) ?


A good question. I do try to take context into my understanding of a sentence in Arabic. I don't think there would be much difference in the meaning if I had said, "When you strive, you will be successful". In both the "when" and "if" cases, using إذا the implication is certainty. You know Arabic is not a language but a science and it baffles the greatest minds, yours and mine included!


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## Ibn Nacer

Yes we can also translate conditional sentence of type 0 with "if" but it is not the same "if" of type 1 ...

 I am not sure that everyone is making the difference


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