# All dialects: belonging to (possessive)



## suma

Some of the ways to express possession

Egyptian:
this is my car 
il-3arabiya di bi'taa3iy

is this your bag?
ish-shunTa di bi'taa3k?

what is this word ? surely like most colloquial words it has some roots in MSA.


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## Josh_

Yes most words do have some root in MSA, but there are others that are completely unique to the dialect.  That  said, I am unsure of this word.  I used to think it was unique, but then I saw a connection with the root ت- ب- ع (despite the ب and the ت being reversed) which has the overall meaning of "following."  The word تبع (taba3) can also express possession --  il-3arabiyya di taba3ni.

Just a small tweak to your transliteration:

il-3arabiyya di bta3ti
ish-shanta di btaa3ak?

for feminine words -- bitaa3a
for masculine -- bitaa3
and plural -- bituu3


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## elroy

We also use this word in Palestinian Arabic, but the forms differ slightly:

singular masculine: taba3i/btaa3i
singular feminine: tabi3ti/btaa3ti
plural masculine: taba3uuni/bta3uuni
plural feminine: taba3aati/bta3aati

Incidentally (and I don't know if this is in any way etymologically related) but we also use the word "bitaa3" to mean "thingamajig."

Ween il-bitaa3? - Where's that thingy?
_(If you've forgotten or do not know the specific word for something)_

Small correction: 


Josh Adkins said:


> il-3arabiyya di taba3ti.


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## Josh_

It is also used in Egyptian as an equivalent of thingamajig as well as other unmentionable meanings.



> il-3arabiyya di taba3ti.


The Palestinian usage must be different, but as far as I know in Egyptian taba3 is an invariable preposition (that is not inflected for gender and number), like عند , and only takes pronoun suffixes.


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## cherine

I had thought about this some time ago, and I guess that -as we seem to agree- it comes from taba3 (which can be translated as follower or belonging to, depending on context).

I'll add the Egyptian version in blue to mark the differences :


elroy said:


> We also use this word in Palestinian Arabic, but the forms differ slightly:
> 
> singular masculine: taba3i/btaa3i
> singular feminine: tabi3ti/btaa3ti bta3ti (short "a")
> plural masculine: taba3uuni/bta3uuni btuu3i
> plural feminine: taba3aati/bta3aati btuu3i


The underlined words, we don't have them in Egypt.
taba3i is invariable when refering to the "owned" , but it differs according to the owner :
singular masculine: taba3i (belong(s) to me)
plural masculine and feminine: taba3na (belong(s) to us)
So I agree with Josh on this :


> The Palestinian usage must be different, but as far as I know in Egyptian taba3 is an invariable preposition (that is not inflected for gender and number), like عند , and only takes pronoun suffixes.


Now for the fun part of this thread 


			
				elroy said:
			
		

> Incidentally (and I don't know if this is in any way etymologically related) but we also use the word "bitaa3" to mean "thingamajig."
> Ween il-bitaa3? - Where's that thingy?
> _(If you've forgotten or do not know the specific word for something) _





Josh Adkins said:


> It is also used in Egyptian as an equivalent of thingamajig as well as other unmentionable meanings.


 
Exactly.   When you're speaking about something and just can't remember what it is, you say "el betaa3 dah!", and there's the feminine (betaa3a), the plural (betuu3). 

There's even a poem in 3ammeyya maSreyya, written by a great 3ammeyya poet, Ahmed Fo2ad Negm, entitled el-betaa3 !! I assure you I'm not 100% sure what he's talking about, but I invite you to read it. 

In short, بتاع is a very functional word in Egyptian Arabic.


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## Tariq_Ibn_zyad

I'll complete for North African Arabic

Moroccan:
we use "dyaal"

et-tomobil dyaali= my car
had lektaab dyaalak wella dyaalu?= Is this book yours or his?

Some speakers use feminine and plural form(dyaala and dyaawl) others don't

In some regions (eastern region,and some urban dialects) people use "nta3" or "ta3"

Algerian:

nta3 or ta3

had lektaab nta3i= This book is mine

Some regions use dyaal or mtaa3

Tunisian;

mtaa3

na3raf el lehja mtaa3 tuunes=I know the dialect of Tunis
---------------
I think that nta3,ta3 and mta3 come from the same root as btaa3. I also heard that Shiaa muslims in Syria and Lebanon use "taa3"


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## Josh_

cherine said:


> In short, بتاع is a very functional word in Egyptian Arabic.


Yes, it is very functional.  It's also used in an associative manner with people, like if you forget the proper term for something or if there is no proper term, examples:

bitaa3 il-laban -- a milkman 
bitaa3, bitaa3 il-laHma  -- a butcher 
bitaa3 il-mukhaddaraat -- a drug dealer or a drug user.



> Moroccan:
> we use "dyaal"


This word is also interesting.  Without knowing much about it other than it is used to express possession, I would venture to guess that it comes from the root ذ- ي- ل which also has to do with something being appended or attached to something else, and from that we can see the loose connection of possession in the same vein as the تبع (following) connection with possession.

This has been a very interesting discussion.


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## elroy

Josh Adkins said:


> bitaa3 il-laban -- a milkman
> bitaa3, bitaa3 il-laHma -- a butcher
> bitaa3 il-mukhaddaraat -- a drug dealer or a drug user.


 We use it the same way too, except in those contexts we would use "taba3" - except in the Galilee, where "btaa3" is the more commonly used version.

Interestingly enough, though, we use *only* "bitaa3" (and its derivatives) for "thingamajig."  "Taba3" must be followed by an object.

It's also interesting that in the "thingamajig" context there has to be an "i" whereas when the word is used like "taba3" (with an object) there is no "i." 

Back to "taba3" in Egyptian: Just to be clear, you can use "taba3*ni*" if the object owned is feminine?


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## Josh_

elroy said:


> Interestingly enough, though, we use *only* "bitaa3" (and its derivatives) for "thingamajig."  "Taba3" must be followed by an object.
> 
> It's also interesting that in the "thingamajig" context there has to be an "i" whereas when the word is used like "taba3" (with an object) there is no "i."


I assume you are still talking about Palestinian Arabic, but as for Egyptian it's just related to the inflectional and morphological patterns of the dialect.  The examples presented all just lent themselves to the 'i' being elided, but if you had a noun that ends a consonant then the 'i' would have to be included as three consecutive consonants cannot occur in Arabic, as we all know:

il-tuffaaH btaa3i
il-tuffaaH bitaa3i.



> Back to "taba3" in Egyptian: Just to be clear, you can use "taba3*ni*" if the object owned is feminine?


With Cherine's response I can definitely say yes, although the first person would be taba3*i* as the '-ni' is only used with verbs.  My use of taba3ni in the above post was an oversight.


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## ayed

Najdi Badawi usually use different *genitve potent* pronounced as "hag"
hathi as-sayyarh *haggiti*
This car is mine
hathi as-sayyarh *haggitih*
This car is his 
Hathihi as-sayyarah *haggat.ha*
This car is hers
Hathihi as-sayyarah *haggat.hom*
This car is theirs


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## elroy

Josh Adkins said:


> I assume you are still talking about Palestinian Arabic, but as for Egyptian it's just related to the inflectional and morphological patterns of the dialect. The examples presented all just lent themselves to the 'i' being elided, but if you had a noun that ends a consonant then the 'i' would have to be included as three consecutive consonants cannot occur in Arabic, as we all know:
> 
> it-tuffaaH btaa3i
> it-tuffaaH bitaa3i.


 Yes, I was talking about Palestinian Arabic.

Your example would be "it-tuffaa7 ibtaa3i" (or "taba3i"). So there is still no "i" between the "b" and the "t" (which is the one I was talking about). To facilitate the pronunciation, we add an "i" (which is more like a schwa) between the "7" and the "b." 


> With Cherine's response I can definitely say yes, although the first person would be taba3*i* as the '-ni' is only used with verbs. My use of taba3ni in the above post was an oversight.


 Well, I never had any problems with "taba3i" (it's the same word in Palestinian Arabic). What I thought was strange was "taba3*n*i," which I corrected to "tabi3*t*i" because in Palestinian Arabic it would be "tab3ati." But now things make more sense: you meant "taba3i," which I now know is used for both masculine and feminine nouns in Egyptian Arabic.


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## suma

ayed said:


> Najdi Badawi usually use different *genitve potent* pronounced as "hag"
> hathi as-sayyarh *haggiti*
> This car is mine
> hathi as-sayyarh *haggitih*
> This car is his
> Hathihi as-sayyarah *haggat.ha*
> This car is hers
> Hathihi as-sayyarah *haggat.hom*
> This car is theirs


 
Glad you posted that Ayed 
I was thinking of that haqg usage as well from my time in Hejaz. It's clear where that word comes from.


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## Josh_

> Your example would be "it-tuffaa7 ibtaa3i" (or "taba3i"). So there is still no "i" between the "b" and the "t" (which is the one I was talking about). To facilitate the pronunciation, we add an "i" (which is more like a schwa) between the "7" and the "b."


Of course, the "schwa" is used in Egyptian as well, to separate what would otherwise be a three consonant cluster.  masalan:

il-Hubb ibtaa3i

As far as the correction of the transliteration, some people prefer the 'il-' with the sun letters (as it represents the actual letters used) and some prefer to repeat the initial letter to represent the assimilation.  It doesn't matter to me either way as long as one knows what the sun letters are and how they are pronounced with the definite article.


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## elroy

Josh Adkins said:


> Of course, the "schwa" is used in Egyptian as well, to separate what would otherwise be a three consonant cluster. masalan:
> 
> il-Hubb ibtaa3i


 Right. My point was that in Palestinian Arabic we don't use "bitaa3" unless we mean "thingamajig." 


> As far as the correction of the transliteration, some people prefer the 'il-' with the sun letters (as it represents the actual letters used) and some prefer to repeat the initial letter to represent the assimilation. It doesn't matter to me either way as long as one knows what the sun letters are and how they are pronounced with the definite article.


 This has come up on the forums before, so I don't want to dwell on it too much, but in my opinion a transliteration should represent the sounds, and not the actual letters used - if for no other reason but to aid beginners.


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## MarcB

Tariq_Ibn_zyad said:


> Tunisian;
> 
> mtaa3


I have heard Tunisians pronounce mtaa' as imtaa'


ayed said:


> Najdi Badawi usually use different *genitve potent* pronounced as "hag"
> hathi as-sayyarh *haggiti*
> This car is mine
> hathi as-sayyarh *haggitih*
> This car is his
> Hathihi as-sayyarah *haggat.ha*
> This car is hers
> Hathihi as-sayyarah *haggat.hom*
> This car is theirs


This is common in khaleeji, also used maal,Hathi s-sayyarah maaleti. Maali means my private parts.


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## Tariq_Ibn_zyad

> I have heard Tunisians pronounce mtaa' as imtaa'



This is because of the Arabic rule many of you mentionned."imtaa3" is used to avoid a succession of 3 consonnants.Regarding Pronounciation and Accent,Tunisian and Lybian are closer to Eastern Arabic than Moroccan and Algerian(which accept 3 or even 4 consonnants of follow and it's frequent)


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## kab

*Sorry ... but it should be:

il-3arabiya di bi'ta3tiy
 ish-shunTa di bi'ta3tak?  (  when you say "a" say it  short not long)


*


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## cherine

Josh Adkins said:


> It's also used in an associative manner with people, like if you forget the proper term for something or if there is no proper term, examples:
> bitaa3 il-laban -- a milkman
> bitaa3, bitaa3 il-laHma -- a butcher
> bitaa3 il-mukhaddaraat -- a drug dealer or a drug user.


True. But we don't do this because we "forget", nor because there's no word for the milkman (el-labbaan), or the butcher (el-gazzaar)..  It's just the common use.
As a translator of French, people can refer to me as "Cherine, betaa3et/beta3t el-faransaawi".  (beta3t'el...) is the shorter form of pronounciation.


elroy said:


> Back to "taba3" in Egyptian: Just to be clear, you can use "taba3*ni*" if the object owned is feminine?


No, Elroy. taba3ni doesn't exist in Egyptian Arabic.
In case my previous example wasn't very clear ...


cherine said:


> taba3i is invariable when refering to the "owned" , but it differs according to the owner :
> singular masculine: taba3i (belong(s) to me)
> plural masculine and feminine: taba3na (belong(s) to us)


...here's a longer list: 
el 3arabeyya taba3i (mine, masculine and feminine)
el 3arabeyya taba3u (his)
el 3arabeyya taba3ha (hers)
el 3arabeyya taba3ak (yours, masculine)
el 3arabeyya taba3ik (yours, feminine)
el 3arabeyya taba3na (ours, both genders)
el 3arabeyya taba3ku(m) (yours, both genders)
el 3arabeyya taba3hum (theirs, both genders)


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## elroy

cherine said:


> True. But we don't do this because we "forget", nor because there's no word for the milkman (el-labbaan), or the butcher (el-gazzaar)..  It's just the common use.


 Well, sometimes there just isn't a specific word for something, or at least the speaker doesn't know of one.

A good example is "coaster." It's what you put under a cup of glass of liquid. When I asked my aunt what the Arabic word for it was (because I didn't know), she jokingly said, "tab3at is-sukhon" (in Israel and the Palestinian territories they are usually used with hot drinks). 


> No, Elroy. taba3ni doesn't exist in Egyptian Arabic.
> In case my previous example wasn't very clear ...


 It's all clear now. It was a typo on Josh's part. 


> ...here's a longer list:
> el 3arabeyya taba3i (mine, masculine and feminine)
> el 3arabeyya taba3u (his)
> el 3arabeyya taba3ha (hers)
> el 3arabeyya taba3ak (yours, masculine)
> el 3arabeyya taba3ik (yours, feminine)
> el 3arabeyya taba3na (ours, both genders)
> el 3arabeyya taba3ku(m) (yours, both genders)
> el 3arabeyya taba3hum (theirs, both genders)


 These sound very funny to my Palestinian ears; they sound like a foreigner speaking and mixing up his genders.  

Our list would be

is-sayyaara tabi3ti
is-sayyaara tabi3to
is-sayyaara tab3itha
is-sayyaara tabi3tak
is-sayyaara tabi3tek
is-sayyaara tab3itna
is-sayyaara tab3itkom
is-sayyaara tab3ithom


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## cherine

elroy said:


> Well, sometimes there just isn't a specific word for something, or at least the speaker doesn't know of one.


Sorry if I misexpressed what I wanted to say. I meant to say that forgetting the word or not knowing it are *not* the only reasons why we use el-betaa3/el-betaa3a/el-butuu3.


> A good example is "coaster." It's what you put under a cup of glass of liquid. When I asked my aunt what the Arabic word for it was (because I didn't know), she jokingly said, "tab3at is-sukhon" (in Israel and the Palestinian territories they are usually used with hot drinks).


 I just made the same experiment with my mother. I asked her: اسمهم إيه البتوع اللي بنحطهم تحت الكوبايات؟ (ismohom eih el-butuu3 elli ben7ottohom ta7t el-kobbayaat) she lauged and said: do they have a name ? and then we both remembered, almost at the same time, that we call them awaa3ed قواعد plural of 2a3da (base?).  
Still, we can keep call them "el butuu3 elli ben7ottohom ta7t el-kobbayaat".


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## elroy

cherine said:


> and then we both remembered, almost at the same time, that we call them awaa3ed قواعد plural of 2a3da (base?).


 That makes sense, but I don't know if it's widely used in Palestinian Arabic.  I'll have to ask my aunt.


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## suma

cherine said:


> I just made the same experiment with my mother. I asked her: اسمهم إيه البتوع اللي بنحطهم تحت الكوبايات؟ (ismohom eih el-butuu3 elli ben7ottohom ta7t el-kobbayaat)


I always heard Egyptians say haggaat to mean things or whatchamacallit .
now I'm really surprised that I can't ever recall hearing btaa3 or butuu3 being used that way


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## Nikola

Suma,That's the Egyptian way of saying  *حاجة*  haaja meaning thing.


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## Abu Rashid

I think it's quite common in 3ameyah for letters to become juxtaposed (mixed up and swapped around). I noticed this just today with people saying "ganzanbil" for ginger here in Egypt (the proper word being "zanjabil". This is also something I've noticed in quite a lot of other words like for instance zawj (zayn waw jim) in 3ameeyah becomes gooz (gim waw zayn), and I've even heard people saying anaraib instead of aranib (plural for rabbits).

This is the butchering of the language by the commoners I think.


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## cherine

suma said:


> I always heard Egyptians say haggaat to mean things or whatchamacallit .
> now I'm really surprised that I can't ever recall hearing btaa3 or butuu3 being used that way


We use both. 7aga= thing. betaa3 = thing. But each words has its use.
For example:
I'll by some thing.
7ashteri 7agaat. We don't say: 7ashteri btuu3.
When you see something strange or that you don't understand very much, you say: eih el betaa3 dah ? not "eih el 7aga di".
I think "el-betaa3" goes for things we don't know what exactly to call them.



Abu Rashid said:


> I think it's quite common in 3ameyah for letters to become juxtaposed (mixed up and swapped around). I noticed this just today with people saying "ganzanbil" for ginger here in Egypt (the proper word being "zanjabil". This is also something I've noticed in quite a lot of other words like for instance zawj (zayn waw jim) in 3ameeyah becomes gooz (gim waw zayn), and I've even heard people saying anaraib instead of aranib (plural for rabbits).
> This is the butchering of the language by the commoners I think.


Your examples are right, although the rabbits' one is not very common. 
But I don't think this is butchering of the language. To my knowledge, this is a linguistic thing, but I don't remember what it's called.  If I remember I'll post it here.


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## elroy

This is way off-topic, but I believe the correct term (or at least one of them) is _spoonerism_.  As Cherine noted, this is a common feature of Arabic dialects, and is no much more of a butchering of the language than anything else.


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## MarcB

Abu Rashid said:


> This is the butchering of the language by the commoners I think.



3aammiyya and fus7a are different, not`a butchering of the language.


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## ayed

The process you are discussing is "*metathesis*", which is called in Arabic(*القلب*)"al-Qalb".Examples:
Najdi badawi sometimes utter the spoon as(*معلقة*)instead of (*ملعقة*)with the same scale(wazn) as in the case :_foilage_ for foliage


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## Josh_

I'm not a linguistics student, but I believe Ayed is right.  The way I understand a spoonerism is that it is a switching (usually intentional) of letters for the purpose of comical effect which is not the case in the Arabic examples given.


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## Tariq_Ibn_zyad

ayed said:


> The process you are discussing is "*metathesis*", which is called in Arabic(*القلب*)"al-Qalb".Examples:
> Najdi badawi sometimes utter the spoon as(*معلقة*)instead of (*ملعقة*)with the same scale(wazn) as in the case :_foilage_ for foliage


You are totally right


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## ayed

Josh Adkins said:


> I'm not a linguistics student, but I believe Ayed is right. The way I understand a spoonerism is that it is a switching (usually intentional) of letters for the purpose of comical effect which is not the case in the Arabic examples given.


Cherine is right about Spoonerism.
If it ocurred within a word ,then it is called"metathesis"(*qalb*)
If it ocurred within a sentence , then it is called "spoonerism"(*qalb*) , AS WELL.


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## suma

So that answers it. 

b'taa3 comes from   تبع

and it's a case of metathesis or   قلب

thanks everyone for contributing.


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## Tariq_Ibn_zyad

Isn't it the opposite??
Because,why do you have Shiaa muslims in Syria and Lebanon saying "taa3",Egyptians saying "b'taa3",Tunisians saying "mtaa3" and Algerians saying "nta3"?.....they all sound similar,while "taba3" is typical from one region


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## elroy

Josh Adkins said:


> I'm not a linguistics student, but I believe Ayed is right. The way I understand a spoonerism is that it is a switching (usually intentional) of letters for the purpose of comical effect which is not the case in the Arabic examples given.


 I agree that "metathesis" is the correct term in this case, but not so much because of the comical aspect, but because of what Ayed said: 


ayed said:


> Cherine is right about Spoonerism.
> If it ocurred within a word ,then it is called"metathesis"(*qalb*)
> If it ocurred within a sentence , then it is called "spoonerism"(*qalb*) , AS WELL.


 By the way, it wasn't Cherine who mentioned "spoonerism"; it was me. I'm not trying to get the credit for it but more like the blame because it wasn't the right term in this context.


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## Josh_

A spoonerism is a type of thetamesis.  I'd be interested in knowing where Ayed got his definitions from, because as far as I know, there is no rule stating that a metathesis only involves one word and a noosperism more than one word.  Consider one of the most famous spoonerisms: flutterby. Personally, though, my favorite play-on-words category is the malapropism -- but don't take it for granite.


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## elroy

Ewe win, Josh.  I must confess that I am not entirely clear on the precise definitions.


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## ayed

Josh Adkins said:


> A spoonerism is a type of thetamesis. I'd be interested in knowing where Ayed got his definitions from, because as far as I know, there is no rule stating that a metathesis only involves one word and a noosperism more than one word. Consider one of the most famous spoonerisms: flutterby. Personally, though, my favorite play-on-words category is the malapropism -- but don't take it for granite.


Elroy , sory for my mistake .
Josh, the reference is *Philology* (Fiqh al-Loghah)by al-Tha'aliby


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## Abu Rashid

Cherine,



> Your examples are right, although the rabbits' one is not very common



It's not that common, but it does exist (I'm sure you'll agree), I'm wondering if it is a class or level of education thing? As I am only really exposed to a very small % of the Egyptian population, it's hard for me to gauge.

One of my favourite Egyptian meals actually is molukhiya wa anaarib 



> But I don't think this is butchering of the language.



If one considers the original and pristine form of the language to be Fus7a and everything else to be a deviation from that (as I do) then this is just one step further away from Fus7a in the decay of the language. I understand it's not all that black and white, but in my view of the Arabic Language, that's what it comes down to. There are things which conserve the pristine form of the language and there are things which wear it down.

MarcB,



> 3aammiyya and fus7a are different, not`a butchering of the language



Well there are a range of opinions on this issue, and I'm not really going to get into too much of a debate about it. But nobody can doubt that the different dialects of Arabic (3ameeyah) are largely a result of political divisions within the Arabic-speaking world. As political unity amongst the Arabic-speaking peoples eroded so too did the ability for any one authority to exert influence over the language, and so the whims of the "tongues of the commoners" were let loose on the language. Obviously distance and isolation play some role, but not as much as politics in my opinion. And this is quite evident when one considers the similarities between the different dialects and then looks at the history of those regions over the last 500 or so years (during which time the Arabic lands gradually became disunited)


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## cherine

I hope we don't wander too much off-topic. There are at least two other threads discussing this Fus7a/3ammeya things.

I'll just tell you something that came to my mind when reading your post : who said that there's only one form of fus7a ? Wasn't there different forms known as لهجات العرب ? It had/has nothing to do with politics, but Arabs have always had different levels or forms of language. Some lahjaat were considered superior or more pure than the others, like لهجة قريش for example, but this doesn't mean that they (the superior ones) were the only existing ones.


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## Abu Rashid

Well obviously it's a sensitive issue for some, so I guess it's probably best not to delve too deep into the "correctness" of the dialects. But the fact is the prevailing colloqiual dialects today (I don't consider fus7a to be a dialect, it is a standard and archived form of the language) are just cut down versions of fus7a. They do away with a lot of the complexity which is just not needed on a day to day basis. Is this morally wrong? I'm not saying it is, and please don't misunderstand my comments to mean as such.


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## elroy

*Moderator Note*: 

I'm going to put my foot down and say no more comments on this issue in this thread. As Cherine said, there are other threads dedicated to this issue, so if you'd like to discuss it further please look for them.

Further off-topic posts will be deleted. 

While I'm at it, I'd like to draw your attention to WR Rule #13:

Any information, translations and definitions posted in these forums must be accompanied by a reasonable attempt to verify accuracy. Give sources for extensive quotations. If you are unsure of the accuracy of your information or translation, please say so. 
(emphasis mine)

Thank you for understanding.


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## Jasmine_Chila

Hi everyone 

I'm a beginner to Egyptian Arabic and to Arabic in general. I know about possessive suffixes. 

The word bitaa3 meaning (belonging to, being connected to) has a male form (bitaa3) used for male people or objects, and a female form (bitaa3it) used for female people or objects.

Does that mean when we add possessive suffixes to this word, we have two versions (male and female)?

For example: Do all these variations exist?

*Male:
*bitaa3y
bitaa3na
bitaa3ak
bitaa3ek
bitaa3ko
bitaa3o
bitaa3ha
bitaa3hom

*Female:
*bitaa3ity
bitaa3itna
bitaa3itak
bitaa3itek
bitaa3itko
bitaa3ito
bitaa3itha
bitaa3ithom


So for example:
es-Sora bitaa3itha (her picture)
es-sora bitaa3ito (his picture)

el-radio bitaa3y (my picture)
el-radio bitaa3ek (your picture _female_)

es-Sora bitaa3ty (my picture)

Am I right that bitaa3/bitaa3it refers to the object rather than the person?

Thanks so much!
Jasmine


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## Josh_

Jasmine_Chila said:


> Hi everyone
> 
> I'm a beginner to Egyptian Arabic and to Arabic in general. I know about possessive suffixes.
> 
> The word bitaa3 meaning (belonging to, being connected to) has a male form (bitaa3) used for male people or objects, and a female form (bitaa3it) used for female people or objects.
> 
> Does that mean when we add possessive suffixes to this word, we have two versions (male and female)?


Yes, that is correct.

Your example are correct, but allow me to correct some of your transliterations.  

There are no long vowels before two consonant clusters, so that means that the long '_aa_' in _bitaa3_ is shortened to _bita3_ before pronominal suffixes that start with a vowel, e.g. -na (us) --> bita3na. 

Also, i's in unstressed positions are often elided with thw addition of another syllable, so _bitaa3iti_ becomes _bita3ti_.  With that, here are my corrections below:

For example: Do all these variations exist?

*Male:
*bitaa3i
bita3na
bitaa3ak
bitaa3ek
bita3ko
bitaa3o
bita3ha
bita3hom

*Female:
*bita3ti
bita3itna
bita3tak
bita3tek
bita3itko
bita3to
bita3itha
bita3ithom


So for example:
es-Suura bita3itha (her picture)
es-Suura bita3to (his picture)

el-radyo bitaa3y (my eadio)
el-radyo bitaa3ek (your radio _female_)

es-Suura bita3ty (my picture)



> Am I right that bitaa3/bitaa3it refers to the object rather than the person?


Yes.


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## Jasmine_Chila

Josh_ said:


> Your example are correct, but allow me to correct some of your transliterations.



Josh, thank you so much for taking the time to look over what I wrote and for correcting me. You really helped, thanks!!!


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## Josh_

You're welcome.


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## Russkitav

[Moderator's Note: Merged with a previous thread]
I was wondering where the word ta3a (not entirely sure about the vowel lenght and there is a chance the t-sound is emphatic, I'm not sure), meaning "for (), belonging to ()" in the Algerian dialect comes from. It has forms like "ta3ii" (for me), "ta3ak/ta3ik" (for you), "ta3u" (for him), and you use it like "sirwal ta3a Jamal" (Jamal's pants), "hadha ta3ik" (this is for you).

Does it exist in other dialects?


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## akhooha

I believe this is probably akin to the Egyptian Arabic "bitaa3", and is used in the same way. More than likely from the classical Arabic "taabi3" (it is not unusual for consonants to do a bit of shifting around).


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## apricots

In Palestinian the form is تبع


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## ahmedcowon

akhooha said:


> I believe this is probably akin to the Egyptian Arabic "bitaa3", and is used in the same way. More than likely from the classical Arabic "taabi3" (it is not unusual for consonants to do a bit of shifting around).



It is from "متاع" which means "property". متاع is still being used in Tunisian Arabic.


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## Hemza

It is also used in Morocco although it is less common than in Algeria. I also heard a Lebanese (I think she is from the South) using it.


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## akhooha

A friend of mine from Deir ez Zor (Syria) told me that folks of his  grandmother's generation used "غيت" as a possessive instead of the currently used "تبع". Is this used in any other dialects, and is there any relationship with Classical Arabic?


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## Hlima

[Moderator's Note: Merged with a previous thread]
Hello everybody,

I'd like to understand the term used by some Iraqi arabicspeakers to say for ex. "my card" I often hear them say "alkaart maaltii" so I'm wondering if this word "maaltii" is used in the same way as in some of our North-African arabic dialects "diyalii", "nta3ii".

-Is it derived from the word "maal" مال ? (Fortune, belonging)

-Does it have a feminin, masculin, plural?

-I'm also curious to know what are all the existant equivalents for those words in other arab dialects.

And thanks for this great forum, I just found it a few days ago and find it very useful for learning about arabic dialects


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## elroy

An Iraqi recently said مالتي _followed_ by a noun, as in مالتي الكتاب for “my book.”  In Palestinian, this is not allowed; it has to be الكتاب تبعي/بتاعي/تاعي/شيتي.  The order cannot be reversed. 

What is it like in other dialects?


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## Mahaodeh

Hlima said:


> -Is it derived from the word "maal" مال ? (Fortune, belonging)



Yes.



Hlima said:


> -Does it have a feminin, masculin, plural?



Yes. مالتي is the feminine, مالي is masculine, مالاتي is the plural. I'm not sure if historically the gender and number matched the noun but today it's equally common to say الكتاب مالي and الكتاب مالتي as well as الكتب مالتي \مالي but مالاتي is always used with the plural and less common than the other two.



elroy said:


> An Iraqi recently said مالتي _followed_ by a noun, as in مالتي الكتاب for “my book.”



The normative case is to say الكتاب مالتي not the other way round. The case you heard is probably an exception and used to give emphasis to 'mine'. I find it as unusual as تبعي الكتاب but I don't want to confirm this because I might be affected by the Palestinian usage.


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## tounsi51

I heard Lebanese saying تعيتك 

I always tought Lebanese say تبعك


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## Hemza

الحسانية lacks such words, we only use الإضافة
(كتابي/كتابكم)
Are there other dialects which don't know them either? I know it is the case in نجدي.


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## I.K.S.

Hemza said:


> Are there other dialects which don't know them either?


It is very common to use such form as well (كتابي/كتابكم),...ديال \ تاع is considered a bit urban.

Correcting post#7 , Though he seems to be no longer about.


Josh_ said:


> This word is also interesting. Without knowing much about it other than it is used to express possession, I would venture to guess that it comes from the root ذ- ي- ل which also has to do with something being appended or attached to something else, and from that we can see the loose connection of possession in the same vein as the تبع (following) connection with possession.


''Dyal'' is a blend word, combining the Demonstrative Pronoun ذا, and the possessive pronoun attached لي , pronounced ديالي (*this is mine*), However there are even other colloquial variations still in use within the same country e.g. تاع - متاع- نتاع- ملك- the latter one ملك being very rare, and usually used to refer to a real estates property.


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## Hemza

إتحادية قبائل الشاوية said:


> It is very common to use such form as well (كتابي/كتابكم),...ديال \ تاع is considered a bit urban.



Yes I know about this but I meant to ask if there are areas which know no such words? Not necessarily in Morocco though.


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## Ihsiin

Mahaodeh said:


> The normative case is to say الكتاب مالتي not the other way round. The case you heard is probably an exception and used to give emphasis to 'mine'. I find it as unusual as تبعي الكتاب but I don't want to confirm this because I might be affected by the Palestinian usage.



I agree, it sounds weird. مالي الكتاب sounds more like "The book is _mine_" than "My book" to me.


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## wriight

Lebanese, all in mostly-free variation:

Masculine

تبع _*ta*ba3_
تبعول _tab*3ūl*_
تاع _*tē3*_
تعول _ta*3ūl*_

_tē3_ is the least likely to take object pronouns (though it's possible). I've learned over this past while never to make blanket statements about Lebanese Arabic, but in at least the pocket of the South I'm familiar with, the _-ūl_ forms are way more common.

Feminine

تبعيت _tab*3īt*, tab*3iy*yet_
تبعت _*tab*3et_
تعيت _ta*3īt*, ta*3iy*yet_
تاعيت _tē*3īt*, tē*3iy*yet_
تاعت _*tē*3et_

These ones are highly variable/dependent on the presence+type of an object pronoun, but in general the _-īt_ forms are most common & the _-iyyet_ forms are rarest. And some speakers might just use a 'masculine' form rather than any of these, even for a feminine possessee.

Annoyingly, we don't have a plural that I know of!

I've also talked to a Palestinian who says he uses _ta(b)*3ūn*_.


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## analeeh

wriight said:


> Lebanese, all in mostly-free variation:
> 
> Masculine
> 
> تبع _*ta*ba3_
> تبعول _tab*3ūl*_
> تاع _*tē3*_
> تعول _ta*3ūl*_



Are you sure the forms with _-uul_ aren't plural? I'm fairly sure I've heard _-uul, -uut _and_ -uun _as plural endings in Syrian but never singular.


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## wriight

Oh, that's temptingly logical... they're definitely not plural for me, but I wouldn't doubt it if you told me there were some part of Lebanon in which _tab3ūl/ta3ūl_ were strictly plural and _taba3/tē3_ singular.


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## A. Adama

*[Moderator's Note: Merged with a previous thread]*
Assalamu alaykum,

I have heard speakers from Iraq use the word  مالتي for expressing possession, for example  هذا الكتاب مالتي instead of هذا الكتاب كتابي. Can I conjugate this word with other pronouns:  مالتك، مالتنا، مالتكم etc.? Would you say for example  هذا الكتاب مالتي مو مالتك?

I remember hearing similar constructions in other dialects. How would you say the above sentence in your dialect?

Shukran jazilan!


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## Derakhshan

I don't know about Iraqi but I would say الكتاب مالي since كتاب is masculine.

In Bahrain you would also conjugate it according to the number of the thing possessed i.e. مالين for masculine plural, مالات for feminine plural.

e.g. ذيلين ماليني "These are mine"


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## A. Adama

I see, thank you! I couldn't remember the sentence I heard it in, so I hadn't realised it needs to agree with the gender of the word. Much appreciated!


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## Ghabi

@A. Adama You may also refer to Maha's post above.


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