# Clause / Phrase punctuation



## vermillionxtears

Hoi!

So, this has been bothering me, and I haven't any Dutch text with which to find out for myself, but I've been wondering, do the Dutch separate their subordinate clauses, infintive phrases, and the like with commas?

For instance, would _I command you to destroy the tower._ be:
Ik beveel je, de toren te vernietigen.
OR
Ik beveel je de toren te vernietigen. ?

What about _I want you to go_?
Ik wil, dat jij gaat.
OR
Ik wil dat jij gaat. ?

I guess I shouldn't assume there is one; there probably isn't. Either way, it's best to ask.

Bedankt!


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## Svenshinhan

In the examples you've given we don't write a comma. Dutch usually has fewer commas than English, but it's best to ask.


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## vermillionxtears

Thank you.  That's _extremely_ helpful.

Hmm, fewer than English? Do you even use one when linking two independent clauses?
Ik eet in de eetkamer, maar mijn broer eet in de woonkamer.
OF
Ik eet in de eetkamer maar mijn broer eet in de woonkamer. ?


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## HKK

No, we don't use a comma in that case either. However, in this particular sentence, it wouldn't be out of place because "maar" is a word after which people when speaking often leave a slight pause that could be represented by a comma.


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## vermillionxtears

I guess a better question would be: When _do_ the Dutch use commas?

 Dank jullie wel!


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## Joannes

Frequent kommagebruik in het Nederlands:
- non-restrictive phrases: *De komma, een vreemd ogend gevalletje tussen de letters, ...* 'The comma, a strange looking thingy between the letters, ...'
- between two finite verb forms: *als er twee pv's staan, zet je er een komma tussen* 'if there are two finite verbs, you put a comma in between'
- in enumerations: *Eén, twee, drie en vier zijn getallen* 'One, two, three and four are numbers'
- to indicate a separate intonation contour: *en daarmee, beste lezers, kom ik aan het einde van mijn betoog* 'and with that, dear readers, I arrive at the end of my argument'


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## moldo

vermillionxtears said:


> I guess a better question would be: When _do_ the Dutch use commas?
> 
> Dank jullie wel!


 
Hi, I have the feeling that the use of commas is pretty much the same as in English.


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## vermillionxtears

> Hi, I have the feeling that the use of commas is pretty much the same as in English.


Hoi!
Are you sure?
I asked if commas were used between two independent clauses in Dutch, and I got the answer "nee."
^^; I constructed the last sentence purposely.

Ik vind dat de komma vaker in het Engels is.


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## moldo

vermillionxtears said:


> Hoi!
> Are you sure?
> I asked if commas were used between two independent clauses in Dutch, and I got the answer "nee."
> ^^; I constructed the last sentence purposely.
> 
> Ik vind dat de komma vaker in het Engels is.


 
*Ik eet in de eetkamer, maar mijn broer eet in de woonkamer.*
OF
Ik eet in de eetkamer maar mijn broer eet in de woonkamer. ?

As far as I know a comma is always required before "maar" in these kind of sentences.

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komma

Generally speaking I have the feeling that nowadays the use of commas is less frequently than it used to be.
But isn't that the same in English?

I also looked at the English wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma_(punctuation)

Interesting is the example:
_a. I cut down all the trees, which were over six feet tall_
_b. I cut down all the trees that were over six feet tall_ 

Sentence a. has a different meaning because of the comma.

In Dutch it is the same:

a. Alle bomen, die meer dan twee meter hoog zijn, hak ik om.
b. Alle bomen die meer dan twee meter hoog zijn hak ik om.

Concluding, I am pretty sure that the use of commas is, more or less, the same in Dutch and English. 

Concluderend, ik ben vrij zeker dat het gebruik van komma's, min of meer, hetzelfde is in Nederlands en Engels.


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## vermillionxtears

> As far as I know a comma is always required before "maar" in these kind of sentences.


Ooh.



> Generally speaking I have the feeling that nowadays the use of commas is less frequently than it used to be.
> But isn't that the same in English?


Commas in English are bound, to my knowledge, by pretty strict rules.
Nonetheless, in which cases in English are commas becoming more infrequent? I personally see commas not being used (in cases which they should) typically only during IM conversations and the like. At least _my_ English teachers are strict when it comes to comma usage.
At least for now, I'll use commas the same in both languages. Als een Nederlander vindt dat ik ongelijk heb, zal ik naar hem of haar luisteren. ^.^

Bedankt weer! =D


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## Funambule

Hi,

Regarding your example:

1) Ik wil dat jij gaat.

No comma because no pause is made while reading it, it's just one flow.

Dutch native speakers would always use 'je' here instead of 'jij', unless 'jij' is stressed (I don't want HIM to go, I want YOU to go = Ik wil niet dat hij gaat, ik wil dat jij gaat)

Funambule


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## jaziz

moldo said:


> Interesting is the example:
> _a. I cut down all the trees, which were over six feet tall_
> _b. I cut down all the trees that were over six feet tall_
> 
> Sentence a. has a different meaning because of the comma.



Interesting example this one, the sole example I remember of the strictly ruled use of commas in English:
b. is a defining relative clause, and there you can't use the comma.
The relative clause in this case defines exactly which (in this case) trees we're talking about
a. is a non-defining relative clause, and there you have to use the comma.
This relative clause just gives some additional information, not needed to actually identify the (in this case) tress we're talking about.

When I was reading English and Dutch at college, we never came accross this kind of exact rules for the use of the comma in Dutch -
yet my experience tells me the difference in meaning in Dutch would actually be exactly the same: use the comma in the non-defining relative clause, don't use it in a defining one.


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