# Et alii complures tam ex plebeis quam ex proceribus



## Amidcrescentsuns

Hello, 
I am looking for help translating this sentence. It is late-medieval Latin. It is preceded by a discussion of how _duces_ and _pontifices _have gathered together to elect a King. I am attempting to determine what it says regarding the role of the "plebeis" in this gathering. Can anyone be of aid?  

"Et alii complures tam ex plebeis quam ex proceribus"

Thank you so much for taking the time.


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## Cagey

And others, as many from the 'plebes' as from the 'proceribus' [nobles]. 

What is the sentence before this?


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## Amidcrescentsuns

Cagey, 

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply. I think your translation is correct, but I am hoping some others may join as well to offer their thoughts or confirmations. 

The previous sentence is a list of names, all of whom are either _pontifices _or nobles. 

The full quote is "Ad grant ethan ex sacerdotibus & sapientibus francorum. Salegasthald summus pontifex Iouis. Gafthald. Herald magister epistolarum. Vuisogasthald pontifex Diane. Rutvuicus. Adelhardus. Richer, & alii complures tam ex plebeis quad ex proceribus"  

Thank you again.


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## Scholiast

Greetings, and forgive me 'interrupting'

'...and several others, as many commoners as aristocrats'.

I regret to say I can at present make no sense of 'Ad grant ethan', but the rest seems to mean 'from among the priests and the wise men of the Franks, Salegasthald, Chief Priest of Jupiter, Gafthald [Galahad?], Herald Chief Secretary, Vulsogasthald, Priest of Diana, Rutvulcus, Adelhard [Ethelred?], Richer...'

What is the precise provenience of this text? The names look Nordic—almost Wagnerian.

Σ


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## Snodv

Germanic for sure, but of course the Franks were Germanic, and the further back in history the more similar are the Germanic names used in different tribes.  In the case of Adelhard I'd say yes, _Adel_ = _Ethel_ = noble, but I don't think _-hard_ and _-red_ are cognate.


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## Snodv

Looking at the names _Salegasthald_ and _Vulsogasthald_, I wonder if _Gafthald_ is a typo for _Gasthald.  _If so, the first element of the name means either "guest" or "spirit," (cf. _ghost_ and _Geist_), but I could not find _-hald.  _If there happened to be an l/r confusion it might be the same as _-hard_, meaning "brave" or "hardy."  So maybe, just maybe, _Gafthald _= _Gasthald_ = _Gasthard_: "brave spirit."
P.S. Adelhard would be "brave noble" and Ethelred "Noble counsel" or "well-advised noble" or the like.
P.P.S. Yes, the "grant ethan" part looks like corrupted text.


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## Scholiast

Greetings once more

Well done Snodv for the detective-work. I am now moved to wonder whether 'Ethelred' / 'Adelhard' could or should be related to _Ethel-rede_, that is, nobly speaking.

I think your intelligent guess that 'Gafthard' is a misreading from 'Gasthard' must be right. 'Long' f is easily confused with 's' in late mediaeval printed texts.

But of course this is pure speculation.

Σ

Late Edit: does the 'surname' "-hard" relate to English 'heart'?


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## bearded

Cagey said:


> And others, as many from the 'plebes'....


I would understand _complures _as 'several' rather than 'as many' (if that's what you meant).

_..and several others, both from the plebs/plebeians and from the nobles.
_
But it's just my view, and I might be mistaken.


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## Scholiast

Greetings again

Yes, 'several', as in # 4.

Σ


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## bearded

Scholiast said:


> as in # 4.


Oh sorry, that had escaped my attention. But I'm glad that we agree.


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## Amidcrescentsuns

Thank you all for taking an interest and being so generous with your time and impressive intellects. The source is a 16th c. history of the early Frankish kings. It is believed to be a fabrication, though its author claimed it was from the 5th c. The author was a German-language primary speaker. 

Thank you once again. This forum is extremely impressive.


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## Scholiast

Hello once more.

I am still puzzling over 'ad grant ethan'. Could 'ad grant' be a misreading of 'aderant', i.e. "Present were..."? If this is right I would hazard a guess that 'ethan' is a mistranscription from 'etiam': _aderant etiam_ would make sense as "Present also were...".

In the context, could this make palaeographical and syntactical sense?

Σ


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## Snodv

I really like _aderant etiam_ as not too far from the text given and making sense!  
Looked up _hard_ and _heart_ though.  According to my source they come from two different Indo-European roots: _ kar- _(for hard) and _kerd-_ (for heart); for the latter cf. Latin _cor, cordis_ and Greek _kardia_.


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## Scholiast

salvete omnes!


Snodv said:


> ...two different Indo-European roots: _ kar- _(for hard) and _kerd-_ (for heart); for the latter cf. Latin _cor, cordis_ and Greek _kardia_.


That seems eminently plausible. But I'm so pleased that Snodv (# 13) endorses my _aderant etiam_ theory.
Σ


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