# Agnus dei not sung in Protestant Churches?



## cheshire

Why do you not sing _Agnus Dei_ in Protestant churches?


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## Brioche

It depends of the variety of Protestantism.
It is sung in Lutheran Divine Service.


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## cheshire

Thanks, Brioche.
But why?


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## maxiogee

cheshire said:


> Why do you not sing _Agnus Dei_ in Protestant churches?




Because I don't tend to go into Protestant churches 
or
Because I'd be kicked out if I tried singing in any church - they have standards, don'tchaknow! 

Seriously —> I would imagine it has to to do with the fact that it is in Latin, and Latin is seen as the language of the Roman Catholic Church, and Protestant Churches don't tend to want to have much to do with things associated with 'that lot'.


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## cheshire

Are Gloria and Kyrie sung in Latin? Why aren't they sung in local languages? I read Heinrich Schütz translated either one of Gloria or Kyrie into German, but I don't know his version is sung in German protenstant churches.

I can't imagine the reason of omitting Agnus Dei being it, remembering the fact that two thirds of the entire German population was lost in Thirty Year's War.


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## Lugubert

In Church of Sweden (which is Evangelical Lutheran) liturgy, everything is in Swedish. They still think that the message should be understood, despite the increasing number of people leaving the Church.


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## GenJen54

Hi Chesire,

It might be helpful to know what variant of Protestantism you are speaking about and in which countries?  These have great impact on the type of service. 

In the U.S. for example, many non-denominational protestant or "bible" churches have modernized their services (which they dub "experiences"), so few remnats of the traditional liturgies remain.  

Choirs in floor-length robes sitting staunchly behind have made way for "praise bands," or groups of musicians with electric guitars, drums, tambourines, etc. who sing into microphones while the parishoners follow lyrics projected onto a wall behind the altar area. 

Protestant churches whose roots are dominately European, in particular Episcopalian, Greek and/or Eastern Orthodox, and some Lutheran or Methodist churches, still cling to more traditional liturgies, although I do not know if _Agngus dei_ is sung in these or not. 

In many instances, "religion" is becoming "big business."  As such, some of the traditional services, including those in Latin, are being eschewed for services that can better excite parishoners, and attract larger audiences. 

I still prefer the traditional services, but then that's what I am accustomed to.


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## ireney

GenJen54 said:


> Protestant churches whose roots are dominately European, in particular Episcopalian, Greek and/or Eastern Orthodox, and some Lutheran or Methodist churches, still cling to more traditional liturgies, although I do not know if _Agngus dei_ is sung in these or not.



I can only speak of Greek Orthodox; We don't sing _Agngus Dei_ because we want people not to understand the liturgy not because it is in Latin but because we follow the Byzantine tradition and use Koine (hellenistic) original were such exist (byzantine Greek is OK too). If an ecclesiastical text is not in a past form of the Greek language it is not deemed  worthy to be part of the liturgy it seems.


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## maxiogee

Thread title said:
			
		

> Angnus dei not sung in Protestant Churches?





GenJen54 said:


> although I do not know if _Agngus dei_ is sung in these or not.





ireney said:


> We don't sing _Agngus Dei_ because we want people not to understand the liturgy




A-g-n-u-s D-e-i


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## ireney

Ah! And I was wondering how the other one was pronounced (let alone what it meant) . I got the "Dei" though and since that is Latin I could say with  certainty that it is not sung in Orthodox churches (following the Byzantine tradtion which includes seeing the Catholic church in a *cough* unfavourable light).

In fact I think can safely claim that nothing containing "dei" or "gloria" is heard in orthodox churches and I can say the same thing with certainty about Greek Orthodox churches. "Kyrie Eleison" on the other hand being Greek and archaic is heard all the time (not the whole thing which I don't know what it is anyway; the phrase Kyrie eleison )


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## panjandrum

I changed the thread title, having made the brave assumption that cheshire was asking about the Lamb of God - Agnus Dei - and not the Scotsman of God - Angus Dei.

The Agnus is said, in English, in my church at every communion service and is also sung from time to time in Latin.


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## cheshire

I'm sorry I am such a bad typist!
I myself laughed to see such a funny spelling.
It's a little relieving to hear local language versions are sung, it's quite a natural way to go.


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## natasha2000

Hmmm... I am not so familiar with church protocols, but I can asure that in Serbian Orthodox church there is NO latin, for sure. The language that is used is Old Church Slavonic from the very beginnings. I wouldn't know what would be Kyrie Eleison....


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## maxiogee

ireney said:


> "Kyrie Eleison" on the other hand being Greek and archaic is heard all the time (not the whole thing which I don't know what it is anyway; the phrase Kyrie eleison )



When I was a young altar boy, each section of the Kyrie was intoned three times - once by the celebrant, once by the congregation and then again by the  celebrant.

Celebrant: Kyrie eleison (Lord have mercy)
Congregation: Kyrie eleison
Celebrant: Kyrie eleison

Celebrant: Christe eleison (Christ have mercy)
Congregation: Christe eleison 
Celebrant: Christe eleison 

Celebrant: Kyrie eleison
Congregation: Kyrie eleison
Celebrant: Kyrie eleison


It is now said in the vernacular and has been reduced to 
Celebrant: Lord have mercy
Congregation: Lord have mercy
Celebrant: Christ have mercy
Congregation: Christ have mercy
Celebrant: Lord have mercy
Congregation: Lord have mercy


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## zebedee

Delving back into childhood memories, I remember in my local Church of England (Protestant) church, the vicar would sing and we'd sing back:
Vicar: "_O Lamb of God_"
Congregation: "_that taketh away the sins of the world, have mercy upon us._"
Vicar:"_O Lamb of God_"
Congregation: "_that taketh away the sins of the world, grant us Thy peace._"

...and it would continue for another verse or two, I think.

I presume that's the Agnus Dei? (The meaning of Agnus Dei being Lamb of God in Latin and all that...)

 PS: I had great fun as a child replacing the word "grant us Thy *peace*" for "*peas*"


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## mjscott

Agnus Dei qui tolis pecata mundi....


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## natasha2000

Well, we have in Ortodox church a prayer that asks a God to have mercy on us, and there's another one which asks Saint Trinity to have mercy and to forgive us our sins...

I really wouldn't know if it corresponds to Agnus Dei or to Kyrie Eleison... 

And there's also glory of God mentioned in some of them...

Buf... I'm afraid no use of this old atheist here....


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## maxiogee

mjscott said:


> Agnus Dei*,* qui tol*l*is pec*c*ata mundi*,*



… miserere nobis!
Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, dona nobis pacem.


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## Brioche

ireney said:


> Ah! And I was wondering how the other one was pronounced (let alone what it meant) . I got the "Dei" though and since that is Latin I could say with certainty that it is not sung in Orthodox churches (following the Byzantine tradtion which includes seeing the Catholic church in a *cough* unfavourable light).


 
The prayer, _Agnus Dei_ come froms the Gospel of St John, chapter 1, verse 29:
Greek: ide o amnoV tou qeou o airwn thn amartian tou kosmou
Latin vulgate: Ecce Agnus Dei qui tollit peccatum mundi.
KJV translation: Behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world.

I would be very surprised if the Greek Liturgy makes no mention of amnoV tou qeou

The actual Latin prayer changes the text slightly, so that the Lamb of God is addressed,_ tollit_ becomes _tollis_ and the sin _peccatum_ is changed to the sins _peccata_
_Agnus Dei qui tollis peccata mundi, _
_miserere nobis._
_Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world_
_have mercy on us._


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## ireney

The lamb of God is of course mentioned but in the original language

Same goes for Kyrie/Christe eleison although the congregation (as far as I know) has a walk-on role (in other words a mute part).

Thanks  maxiogee and brioche for the explanation


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## mjscott

Thanks, also, maxiogee and brioche. My latin spelling sucks.


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## timpeac

cheshire said:


> Why do you not sing _Agnus Dei_ in Protestant churches?


Surely the question should be why anyone would want to sing in a dead language rather than why some people don't?


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## Kelly B

timpeac said:


> Surely the question should be why anyone would want to sing in a dead language rather than why some people don't?


Because the vowels are so much prettier than the English ones....
Is it too far off topic to wonder, now, why the great choral masses include text in both Greek (Kyrie Eleison) and Latin (everything else...)?

...and back to the original question...

The Lamb of God (sung in English in most American Catholic churches) is part of the preparation of Eucharist/Holy Communion in the Mass. Some Protestant churches don't offer Communion at every service, and they may view it as purely symbolic.


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## panjandrum

timpeac said:


> Surely the question should be why anyone would want to sing in a dead language rather than why some people don't?


My answer is simple - whatever it is, I prefer to sing the words used in theoriginal composition.  Much choral music was composed as settings of Latin text so it is better to sing the Latin version.  Better, in this context, means that the phrasing, the emphasis, and the general pattern of the words and music will support one another.


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## maxiogee

timpeac said:


> Surely the question should be why anyone would want to sing in a dead language rather than why some people don't?



Could it be that some songs are best sung in their original 'settings' - be they pop-songs, classic sacred works or just some old Sinatra standards?


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## se16teddy

Kelly B said:


> Because the vowels are so much prettier than the English ones...


Don't forget the very well known and moving setting of 'Behold the lamb of God' in English in Handel's _Messiah No. 22 _This setting was written by a Protestant and is commonly performed in Protestant churches. The Messiah is so popular, especially around Christmas time, that musicians tell the joke 'I dreamt that I was playing Handel's Messiah, and when I woke up I was!'


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## Brioche

se16teddy said:


> Don't forget the very well known and moving setting of 'Behold the lamb of God' in English in Handel's _Messiah_ (No. 22). This was written by a Protestant and is commonly performed in Protestant churches. The Messiah is so popular, especially around Christmas time, that musicians tell the joke 'I dreamt that I was playing Handel's Messiah, and when I woke up I was!'


 
Nowadays, Messiah and other works by Händel are performed in churches, but, at the time they were written, they were not considered suitable for churches.  And, Messiah was originally written for Easter, not Christmas.


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## maxiogee

Brioche said:


> And, Messiah was originally written for Easter, not Christmas.[/FONT]



… and was first performed in Dublin on 13th April 1742, in "the New Musick Hall" near Christchurch Cathedral.


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