# Daubsucht (16th century text)



## Gilles DENIS

Hello!

What means Daubsucht in this text from *Hieronymus Bock* (*Hieronymi Tragi, De stirpium, maxime earum, quae in Germania nostra nascuntur, Strasbourg, 1552, p. 666):*







_Rubiginem_ in Latin means a kind of cereal disease. This text specifies the German name it "Daubsucht"

We find this word in an other text (*Erster [Weygand Han, und Georg Raben, Der ander ; Der dritte] Theil der grossen Wundartzney, Volume 3, 1562, p. 65) :




Erster [Der ander ; Der dritte] Theil der grossen Wundartzney*

and in this other text (*Paracelsus, Des Hochgelerten un[d] Hocherfarnen Herren Theophrasti Paracelsi von Hohenheim, beyder Artzney Doctoris, etliche tractaten, 1564, *):






Des Hochgelerten un[d] Hocherfarnen Herren Theophrasti Paracelsi von Hohenheim, beyder Artzney Doctoris, etliche tractaten

Best, Gilles


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## Gilles DENIS

In the last text from Paracelsus :


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## Thersites

Internetrecherchen ergeben, dass das Wort "Taubsucht" wohl in Frühneuhochdeutsch die Bedeutung "Raserei, Wahnsinn" hatte.

_la frénesie
la folie_

Gruss, Thomas


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## Hutschi

You find it in https://fwb-online.de/lemma/taubsucht.s.1f

It is now written "Tobsucht" and means Raserei and Wahnsinn -- rage and madness.

In one of your documents it is explained with "wütend" - state of rage, in the other one with "Unsinnigkeit" (modern Unsinn is nonsense, but the old meaning fits to Wahnsinn as far as I see, but I'm not fully sure.)

It is late early new high German (spätes Frühneuhochdeutsch)

We have some specialists, maybe they can improve my explanation.

---
Crossposted with Thomas, basically we have the same result.


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## Lhost Vokus

The word still exists in today's German in "Tobsuchtsanfall".


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## Gilles DENIS

But for plant disease ? Gilles


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## Gilles DENIS

*dheubh-,    *dhūbh-   ‘stieben, rauchen; neblig, verdunkelt’  (auch vom Geist und den Sinnen) 

DWDS – Digitales Wörterbuch der deutschen Sprache


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## Lhost Vokus

Gilles DENIS said:


> But for plant disease


Why plant desease? I think, only in the latin source it could be a plant desease (i cannot read latin),  the others talk about mind desease.


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## Thersites

"plant disease" = _Tollwut
("la rage"?)_
T.


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## Gilles DENIS

for cereal disease ? : 
- misting disease, clouding disease, beclouding disease
- vernebelnd krankheit, nebligseind krankheit


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## JClaudeK

Hutschi said:


> It is now written "Tobsucht" and means Raserei and Wahnsinn -- rage and madness.


Wahrscheinlich nicht Tobsucht sondern
*Tollwut*


> Die Tollwut, auch Rabies (von lateinisch rabere, ‚toll sein‘, ‚wüten‘, ‚toben‘), Hundswut oder Wutkrankheit genannt


*= Rabies*

crossed with #9 while searching 
↓


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## Gilles DENIS

In European languages at early modern period, most of the popular terms for cereal disease are weather-based (cloud, dew, etc.) : mildew (E.), Höningtau (G.), Mehltau (G.), nielle (F.), bruine (F.), ñublado (S.), añublo (S.), nivlenn (Breton), Meeldauw (NL), Mjöldagg (Swedish), brinato (I.), etc.


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## Gilles DENIS

my request was :
- what means Daubsucht in a broad sense
- what means Daubsucht for wheat cereal disease

So Tollwut or Rabies or Rage doesn't work for plant. to account for the meaning today of daubsucht for plants : foging disease, foging weakening, beclouding weakening ?


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## Gilles DENIS

Gilles DENIS said:


> *dheubh-,    *dhūbh-   ‘stieben, rauchen; neblig, verdunkelt’  (auch vom Geist und den Sinnen)
> 
> DWDS – Digitales Wörterbuch der deutschen Sprache



weakening from frog,  (from "Nebel"),  ? fog weakening ? weakening due to the fog ?


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## Gilles DENIS

Lhost Vokus said:


> Why plant desease? I think, only in the latin source it could be a plant desease (i cannot read latin),  the others talk about mind desease.


The problem is here. I should have quoted only the first text (the text in Latin) which is indeed a part of a text about the diseases of wheat cereals. I only added the other texts to help the word's comprehension, but this led to another discussion  than the one I was hoping for.


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## eamp

It seems to refer to Ergot in this case.

ETH - e-periodica


> Nicht nur die rote Ruhr, sondern auch die "Daubsucht" (Die Daubsucht, heute Ergotismus genannte Krankheit, wird durch Mutterkorn verunreinigtes Getreide, vor allem von Roggen hervorgerufen. Sie beginnt mit Dumpfwerden des Körpergefühls, daher Daubsucht.


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## Demiurg

Hmm. Ergotismus is not a plant desease but a human desease caused by plants.


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## Gilles DENIS

Ergot is a disease of rye and ergotism is a disease of man from having eaten rye with ergot.


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## eamp

Yeah, I figure the name must have been transferred from the human disease to the plant disease causing it. Then it was confused with a different disease maybe? At least that's the best explanation I could come up with for the strange name.

Google gives two hits for 'daubsucht' as a plant disease. 

Hieronymus Bock - Kreuter Bůch


> Inn Theophrasto findt man geschriben / das Rubigo die Daubsucht / den geäherten früchten zů
> vollem Monschein gedrang thůe [...]



Victorinus Schönfeld von Budissin - Prognosticon Astrologicum 1579.


> Ist zu fürchten der Carbunculus werde nicht allein den Weinwachs an etlichen orten
> verderben / Sondern auch viel brandkorn und die daubsucht im Getreid verursachen.


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## Gilles DENIS

See _St. Petri Schnee_ (1933) from Leo Perutz (1933). St. Petri Schnee is this rye disease


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## Gilles DENIS

eamp said:


> Yeah, I figure the name must have been transferred from the human disease to the plant disease causing it. Then it was confused with a different disease maybe? At least that's the best explanation I could come up with for the strange name.
> 
> Google gives two hits for 'daubsucht' as a plant disease.
> 
> Hieronymus Bock - Kreuter Bůch
> 
> 
> Victorinus Schönfeld von Budissin - Prognosticon Astrologicum 1579.



Thank you for all this information, but the explanation you give is based too much on the knowledge of today and not on representations of the 16th century. The etymology of the term can maybe better help to approach the vision and meaning of the 16th century


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## Gilles DENIS

eamp said:


> Hieronymus Bock - Kreuter Bůch



This book (1539) was translated in latin in 1552. The first source I mentioned is this Latin version [*Hieronymus Bock* (*Hieronymi Tragi, De stirpium, maxime earum, quae in Germania nostra nascuntur, Strasbourg, 1552, p. 666)*]


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## eamp

Gilles DENIS said:


> Thank you for all this information, but the explanation you give is based too much on the knowledge of today and not on representations of the 16th century. The etymology of the term can maybe better help to approach the vision and meaning of the 16th century


Not sure what you mean. Do you think 'Daubsucht' (also 'Taubsucht' in a later edition of Bock's book) contains another word 'd/taub' that is distinct from modern German 'taub'? Because I do not think that is very likely.


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## manfy

Gilles DENIS said:


> Thank you for all this information, but the explanation you give is based too much on the knowledge of today and not on representations of the 16th century. The etymology of the term can maybe better help to approach the vision and meaning of the 16th century


I'm siding eamp.

Let's look at what we know:
*) The Latin text in the OP says: "Theophrastus equide Rubiginem frumentaceis..."
I suppose the writer is talking about Theophrastus Paracelsus. He was born in 1493, he was Swiss and according to some Google searches, it seems that he coined the term 'Daubsucht'.
Google Translate turns 'Rubiginem frumentaceis' into _Weizen Blight _or _Weizenfäule_ and there seems to be a reasonable correlation to _daub/taub = betäubt_.

When you look up 'daub' in the Swiss Idiotikon you find:


> daub -> taub -> tob
> 1. von lebenden Wesen
> a) verwirrt, irrsinnig, toll
> b) zorning, rasend
> [...]
> 2. a) von Abstraktem, ausgehend von 1a) bzw b) *in Bezug auf Krankheiten, Schmerzen, im Sinne von betäubt*
> b) von Sachen
> ᵅ) *leer, minderwertig, kraftlos*
> 1) *namentlich von Pflanzen und deren Früchten*
> [...]


Based on this alone, Paracelsus's name 'Daubsucht' as a plant disease makes sense.

Paracelsus did also talk about 'Von Daubsucht und Unsinnigkeit' as a human ailment, but here 'Daubsucht' clearly means Tobsucht, Wahnsinn.

Interesting is also your post #2, where Paracelsus talks about "Nun aber die Ursach der Daubsucht zu erzelen ...". Here he clearly talks about the mental illness of Tobsucht, but he does compare and connect it to diseased wheat!! 
He says "...so wissen dass die Vernunft rein und lauter sein soll, *gleich als reiner Weizen auff eim Acker, der keinen ratte oder unkraut in jm hat*." And then he talks about 'ratte und unkraut' and their impact: "...so *ubermeret  das unkraut und ratten die vernunfft, jzt ist die Daubsucht da*."


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## manfy

Gilles DENIS said:


> See _St. Petri Schnee_ (1933) from Leo Perutz (1933). St. Petri Schnee is this rye disease


I've never heard of that, but Google shows that Leo Perutz claims <this>:


> Der Baron: »_Es gibt – oder es gab – eine Getreidekrankheit, die in früheren Jahrhunderten oft beschrieben worden ist, und in jeder Gegend, in der sie auftrat, war sie unter einem anderen Namen bekannt. In Spanien hieß sie ‚die *Magdalenenflechte*‘, im Elsaß ‚*der Armen-Seelen-Tau*‘. Das ‚Arztbuch‘ des Adam von Cremona beschrieb sie unter dem Namen ‚*Misericordia-Korn*‘, in den Alpen war sie als ‚*St.Petri-Schnee*‘ bekannt. In der Umgebung von St. Gallen nannte man sie den ‚*Bettelmönch*‘ und im nördlichen Böhmen die ‚*St. Johannis-Fäule*‘. Hier bei uns im Westfälischen, wo sie besonders oft auftrat, hieß sie bei den Bauern ‚der *Muttergottesbrand*‘. _


Adam von Cremona supposedly wrote his book in 1227.
Let's assume that Perutz researched this and that all these names did exist for this disease, then it's quite believable that Paracelsus coined yet another term for the same disease, _*Daubsucht*_.

-------------------------
And for completeness' sake: 
_Mutterkorn _is not limited to rye (as per <Wiki>):


> Besonders häufig betroffenes Nahrungsgetreide ist *Roggen*, aber auch die als Viehfutter genutzten Getreide *Triticale, Weizen, Gerste, Hafer und Dinkel*. Über 400 Gräser insgesamt sind befallgefährdet



And also Wiki confirms the diversity of names for this disease:


> Das Mutterkorn besitzt viele, zumeist regionale Eigennamen, wie *Arme-Seelen-Tau *(Elsass), *Bettelmönch *(St. Gallen), *Ergot*, *Hahnensporn*, *Hungerkorn*, *Krähenkorn*, *Misericordia-Korn *(Norditalien), *Purpurroter Hahnenpilz, St. Petri-Schnee *(Alpenraum), *Tollkorn *oder *Roter Keulenkopf*.


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## eamp

manfy said:


> Let's look at what we know:
> *) The Latin text in the OP says: "Theophrastus equide Rubiginem frumentaceis..."
> I suppose the writer is talking about Theophrastus Paracelsus. He was born in 1493, he was Swiss and according to some Google searches, it seems that he coined the term 'Daubsucht'.
> Google Translate turns 'Rubiginem frumentaceis' into _Weizen Blight _or _Weizenfäule_ and there seems to be a reasonable correlation to _daub/taub = betäubt_.


No, in the German edition it's explicitly cited as from the ancient Theophrastus' plant history, Book 8, Chapter X.
The sentence of Bock I quoted before corresponds to:


> γίγνεται δὲ ἡ ἐρυσιβᾷ πανσελήνοις μάλιστα.


So the original word is _ἐρυσίβη_ which Theophrastus uses in this chapter for a disease affecting the seeds of plants, especially cereals. This was translated as _rubigino_ in the Latin translation Bock probably used.



> When you look up 'daub' in the Swiss Idiotikon you find:


True, the sense of empty or bad could have been a motive here. We still have 'taube Nuss' and 'taubes Gestein' in that meaning.
I just thought the use of 'Sucht' in the context of plants was strange, but apparently this is not without parallels as 'Bleichsucht' and 'Gelbsucht' exist for Chlorosis in plants. 

So is Paracelsus' 'Daubsucht' for a human disease unrelated to the same term used for a plant disease? Hard to believe, but I am not sure what exactly happened here.


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## manfy

eamp said:


> So is Paracelsus' 'Daubsucht' for a human disease unrelated to the same term used for a plant disease? Hard to believe, but I am not sure what exactly happened here.


No, it's probably not unrelated. Since _Mutterkorn _does cause hallucinations and hysteria and also _Taubheit _of extremities he may have chosen the same name for the plant disease that causes this.
It seems plausible, but granted, I don't have written proof for this.

I have to revise my statement from above a bit. Using only the modern word 'Tobsucht' for Paracelsus' _Daubsucht_ (the human illness) is probably not correct and misleading.
I read through all of the Causa-chapter on _Daubsucht _from Paracelsus and it becomes clear that he's not specifically referring to _Tobsucht_, i.e. being enraged and hysterical. He's using _Daubsucht _as a description for all sorts of chronic mental disorders and abnormalties.
On one page he's talking about _Daubsucht _caused by food and then he's comparing the symptoms with symptoms from drinking (too much) wine. 
This means that 'daub' had more a meaning of _taub _(in this case _'gefühlstaub'_) than _toben_. (Other literature from the 18th century seems to correlate Daubsucht more closely with Tobsucht, though)  

Additionally, _Daubsucht _for the human illness may not be a Paracelsus coinage after all. I found a reference from Fridolin Ryff from 1517, published in Basler Chronicle <here>:


> [...] ...kam ein großer Sterben mit großem Hauptwe, daß die Lüt in groß *Daubsucht *fiellen; starben viel namhafftiger Burger, des gemeinen Volk ein groß Zal.  [...]


Paracelsus hadn't finished his studies in Ferrara yet and he hadn't published anything by 1517.


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## Frau Moore

Zitat von Gilles DENIS:
*dheubh-, *dhūbh- ‘stieben, rauchen; neblig, verdunkelt’ (auch vom Geist und den Sinnen)

DWDS – Digitales Wörterbuch der deutschen Sprache
Interessant................das Hindi/Urdu-Wort "dhundh" bedeutet als Nomen Nebel, Dunst, Dunkelheit etc. (also im Prinzip alles, was die Sicht "umnebelt"), daneben auch schlechte Sicht, und als Adjektiv neblig, dunstig etc., gebtrübt (Sinne), betrunken, betäubt.


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## Gilles DENIS

manfy said:


> I suppose the writer is talking about Theophrastus Paracelsus


No it's Theophrastus : Historia Plantarum (Theophrastus) - Wikipedia


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