# Afirmações estetizantes



## Lina1

In an architectural context, would it be overstating it to translate this term as "pure aesthetics" ? As in, "é oportuno dar ao estudante a disciplina mediante a qual subordinar os desejos de afirmações meramente estetisantes..."


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## almufadado

Lina1 said:


> In an architectural context, would it be overstating it to translate this term as "pure aesthetics" ? As in, "é oportuno dar ao estudante a disciplina mediante a qual subordinar os desejos de afirmações meramente estetisantes..."



As you give the student the means to control his/her desire to focus only on aesthetics, but rather (guessing ...) to find an equilibrium between function and appeal.


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## Lina1

The whole sentence is "é oportuno dar ao estudante a disciplina mediante a qual subordinar os desejos de afirmações meramente estetisantes --pergosa tendência à estravagância, ao exagero ou à ênfase retórica-- à exata visão da finalidade concreta a que a obra se destina. " 

So, it is an opposition between aesthetics and function, yes... could you say "desire to affirm only aesthetics" or "desire for pure aesthetics"  as opposed to "concrete function" or "concrete goal" ?


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## Brass

Hi, Lina.
The sentence, in Portuguese, is rather convoluted.
I will try to put it in more direct order, so we can discuss it.

My version: "é oportuno dar ao estudante a disciplina pela qual os seus desejos de fazer afirmações meramente estéticas fiquem subordinados à exata visão da finalidade concreta a que a obra se destina. Os desejos de afirmações meramente estéticas são uma perigosa tendência à extravagância, ao exagero ou à ênfase retórica."

Accordingly, I understand that you could say "desire to affirm only aesthetics", as opposed to the "concrete function".

In this case, I would definitely prefer to translate "meramente" as "only" or "just", instead of "pure".


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## Lina1

Thanks for the untangling of the sentence-- it seems that what I am translating is especially difficult because of this type of incredibly long sentence, with mopre than one modifier. 
How is this:     The desire to affirm only  aesthetics leads to a dangerous tendency towards extravagance, exaggeration and rhetorical emphasis.  It is advisable to give students a means to control this desire by exacting from them a vision for the concrete purpose of the work.


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## almufadado

Lina1 said:


> Thanks for the untangling of the sentence-- it seems that what I am translating is especially difficult because of this type of incredibly long sentence, with mopre than one modifier.
> How is this:     The desire to affirm only  aesthetics leads to a dangerous tendency towards extravagance, exaggeration and rhetorical emphasis.  It is advisable to give students a means to control this desire by exacting from them a vision for the concrete purpose of the work.



Instead of "a means to control" the sentence seems to ask ... me  ... for a ... 

"a means to tame" ...  perhaps too "domesticated" ...
"a means to curb"   ... yes !

... I know the original says "subordinar" that can be the literal translation of "subordinate" because of this meaning" Subject to the authority or control of another." 

But with your version, the teacher *is not,* for sure, *telling *the students for them to put aside their creativity ... just _*to curb it to the point *_where function meet appeal.



> *.* So, when you have lust, it is best to _curb this desire_.
> 
> If a boy can _curb this desire_ until he leaves school, I feel he can safely enter life a


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## Lina1

I worry that "curb this desire" is almost always understood with these sexual connotations, as your examples illustrate. 

How about: It is advisable to give the student the means to discipline his desire to pursue only aesthetics --which promotes a dangerous tendency towards extravagance, exaggeration and rhetorical emphasis-- by exacting from him a vision for the concrete purpose of the work.


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## almufadado

Lina1 said:


> I worry that "curb this desire" is almost always understood with these sexual connotations, as your examples illustrate.
> 
> How about: It is advisable to give the student the means to discipline his desire to pursue only aesthetics --which promotes a dangerous tendency towards extravagance, exaggeration and rhetorical emphasis-- by exacting from him a vision for the concrete purpose of the work.



Yes, neutral and incise ! Muito bem ! Hear, hear !

PS : curb the desire -> yes, it can be seen as sexual, thou it has more meanings.
curb the urge
curb the tendency to -> curb the natural tendency
curb the inclination
Just to make a *side* point !


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## Lina1

Hmmm-- yes! I like "curb the inclination" but now I have to confirm about "os desejos" -- if she had used "inclinação" or "tendencia" would that be a strong as "desire" in Portuguese? In english, "inclinations" and "tendencies" seem easier to control (i.e without discipline). 
I just wouldn't want to water down the intensity of what she is suggesting...


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## almufadado

Lina1 said:


> Hmmm-- yes! I like "curb the inclination" but now I have to confirm about "os desejos" -- if she had used "inclinação" or "tendencia" would that be a strong as "desire" in Portuguese? In english, "inclinations" and "tendencies" seem easier to control (i.e without discipline).
> I just wouldn't want to water down the intensity of what she is suggesting...



Well, this words "desire", "urge","tendency" and "inclination" have all to do with the human nature that makes us do things without "reasoning" them .

This phrase is all but the same, with no apparent sexual connotations :

I have a desire for chocolate (not sexual hint !)
I have a urge for chocolate (not sexual hint ! a hint of addiction )
I have a tendency for (eating) chocolate
I have a inclination for (eating) chocolate

A similar Portuguese expression is "Ser propenso a". This expression translates as* "to be prone to" *or *"to be inclined to/for"*  (nave an inclination) are  also an option .

In order to keep the strength of the phrase "subordinar os desejos de afirmações meramente estetisantes" that talks about desire (with no sexual hint in Portuguese) which is the 2 main key word, you should also play with this strong words in English:

subordinar -> subordinate, curb, discipline
desejo -> desire, inclination, urge

And please notice that the quotes I gave in the last post  you are some that you can find in a google search ! this were out of context !!!!!!!!!! 

I can't see any direct sexual hint in the phrase, (Brass separation of the separate parts of the sentence into two distinct ones can also work):

original : "é oportuno dar ao estudante a disciplina mediante a qual subordinar os  desejos de afirmações meramente estetisantes --pergosa tendência à  estravagância, ao exagero ou à ênfase retórica-- à exata visão da  finalidade concreta a que a obra se destina. " 

"It is advisable to give the student the means *to curb his desire  to pursue *only aesthetics --which promotes a dangerous tendency towards  extravagance, exaggeration and rhetorical emphasis-- by exacting from  him a vision for the concrete purpose of the work.     "

This may be a culture difference, but I can not see any difference between sexual desire, imagination, will power, faith, believe, etc as a product of the human nature, not fractional, distinct, unconnected or disconnected. And most of all your context seem that talks about of architecture. 

The main attribute of a person it's the desire to be, to learn, to achieve,  to create beautiful things , to construct and build and to have sex with his/her mate. This is the desire that motivates us as a specie, the one that transforms the world around in a singular manner ... and that is the desire the author wants you to tame, to curb and why in the hell not ... to control, to discipline . 

uff  there ... I said it ! now your know ...  ....  

Sorry ... I am too philosophical today !

PS: Have you ever been to an architecture school ? there is "sex" written all over !! Even in the foreheads of some students and teachers ...  to design something is passion, is desire to built beautiful elegant, appealing, desirable ... so there is no other way to built something functional, with effectiveness than to curb this desire ! .


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## Lina1

You are funny! (and philosophical) Yes, I have been to architecture school, and agree with everything you say about it...
It's not so much the word "desire" by itself that I was questioning, but whether the phrase "curb the desire" is the closest translation  for "subordinar os desejos" in this context. You seem to say yes, that the connotation is appropriate for the context (architeture school) but is it implied by the phrase in Port.? How would you say "curb the desire" (for sex) in Portuguese? Same way, "subordinar os desejos"? 
In the architecural  context of the citation, on 1957, in Brazil, this teacher's suggestion can be seen as a direct critique of Niemeyer's work. Since his influence is so dominant, the critique is quite bold at the time.


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## almufadado

Lina1 said:


> You are funny! (and philosophical) Yes, I have been to architecture school, and agree with everything you say about it...
> It's not so much the word "desire" by itself that I was questioning, but whether the phrase "curb the desire" is the closest translation  for "subordinar os desejos" in this context. You seem to say yes, that the connotation is appropriate for the context (architeture school) but is it implied by the phrase in Port.? How would you say "curb the desire" (for sex) in Portuguese? Same way, "subordinar os desejos"?
> In the architecural  context of the citation, on 1957, in Brazil, this teacher's suggestion can be seen as a direct critique of Niemeyer's work. Since his influence is so dominant, the critique is quite bold at the time.



Then even more appropriated !  

The Neymier's residential  building in Copacabana with the curves ... some say "it's  the waves" but I have eared him say "as curvas da mulata".

This one what does it look like ? or this one ___  (Other view) ?

Nieymier is full of sexiness in his designs ... it's an imprint ? A deconstruction ? My view of all those curvy buildings , makes me think so.

Then I bet, if this is a critique to him, "the desire" goes is more directions than one. 

His architectural style if often described as "ousado" and "arrojado", that can be translated as "bold/daring" in the sense of modernist, vanguardist.

But  this "ousado" can also go in the sense of "spicy", "womanizer" (stopping at libertine). He clearly explores the shape of the female figure, "da mulata", that as well defined curvy contour. You can see this in is sculpture and his poetry (and in his personal live too).

The critique can then sound prude ! 

And looking at the "Museu de Arte Contemporânea de Niterói" I can also understand a critique based on function vs. aesthetics. Particularly, in a practical view, the maintenance of this types of building is a nightmare (the Guggenheim !! crazy  !)


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## Carfer

Is there any problem with the literal translation '_subordinate_'?
Isn't '_desire_' too strong a word to translate '_desejo_' (especially because of the sexual connotation)? Wouldn't '_wish_' or even '_inclination_', as almufadado suggests, be a more neutral term ?
What's the exact meaning of '_afirmação_' in this context?

I'm not a native of English, so perhaps my suggestions and comments are inadequate, but, as I understand this particular sentence, it's of subordination, in the sense of putting something (the student's tendency lo let aesthetics prevail) in a less important position than another thing (function) that the author is talking about. Therefore, there shoud be no reason not to use '_subordinate_', in my view. Discipline should be the tool that permits students to subordinate their tendency/inclination to aesthetics to function, that's the short version of what it says in my opinion. That is, the author accepts that aesthetics is still a factor but it should only have a subordinate position in the conception of the architectural work. That is as far as I would go. A sexual connotation, as implied in the expression _'curb desire'_ is something I'm not prepared to accept as I don't find a trace of it in the text, unless, of course, that we are to admit that sex is present in every human activity, which I gladly am. (By the way, if I wanted to mean _'to curb desire'_ in a sexual context, I would probably use _'abafar o desejo_', which is closer to killing it, actually, than to curbing it.)

'Desejo', as I understand it in this particular context, is softer than _desire, urge_, or whatever implies a strong feeling. It comes closer to '_intention_' in my opinion.

_'Estetizante_' is a difficult word to translate, at least to me. It's not about pure aesthetics, but, rather, about a tendency for aesthetics to become the dominant factor in the work, that is, the architectural work leans towards pure aesthetics but not quite there. It's more of a process, actually, than of a situation. And a dangerous tendency, in the author's opinion. 

'_Afirmação_' is yet difficult to explain in Portuguese and more so to find a suitable word in English for a non-English native, but I think it has to do with the message that every work of art conveys, I mean, it is what the artist wants to say, a kind of artistical 'statement'. _'Afirmação meramente estética' _means that through his/her work the artist intends to convey just a message of beauty, disregarding other considerations (namely function). I'm still trying to find the right word for it, but I'm sure a native will come out with it easily.


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## Lina1

Carfer and Almufadado-- this is really so helpful-- wish I had known about this forum a year ago! 
So, thank you for the very thoughtful remarks. Here's what I am thinking now: 

"It is important to give the student the disciplinary means to subordinate the drive to a primarily aesthetic expression -- with its dangerous tendencies towards extravagance, exaggeration or an over-emphasis on rhetoric-- by exacting from him a concrete vision of the ultimate purpose of the work."

Final comments? Architects? Artists?

"é oportuno dar ao estudante a disciplina mediante a qual subordinar os  desejos de afirmações meramente estetisantes --pergosa tendência à  estravagância, ao exagero ou à ênfase retórica-- à exata visão da  finalidade concreta a que a obra se destina.


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## Carfer

Lina1 said:


> Final comments? Architects? Artists?


 
You are wellcome.
I mentioned artists and architects just for the sake of argument. The text is actually about students, hopefully future would-be artists or architects.


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## Lina1

oh-- sorry... misunderstanding. I was appealing to any artists or architects on the forum for last comments!


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## almufadado

Lina : You are welcome ! And thank you too for this elevated brainstorming. 

Carfer, "afirmações" can easily be comprehended as

* "aesthetic statement".*



> Modern _Architecture_: A New Technical-Aesthetic Synthesis
> de CW Condit - 1947 - Citado por 1 - Artigos relacionados
> of the texture and function of materials *to reinforce his aesthetic statement.* As. I have suggested previously, such attributes of modern architecture in ...



(Note curiously google translator translates it as "declaração")


*or as "aesthetic substance" *




> Elements of _Architecture_ - Resultado da pesquisa de livros do GooglePierre von Meiss - 1990 - Architecture - 228 páginas
> 'Gravity and rigidity are the* aesthetic substance *of beautiful _architecture_.'135 Secondly, _architecture_ always consist of hollow forms in order to *...*




PS: I prefer the first .


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## Lina1

Brass said:


> Hi, Lina.
> The sentence, in Portuguese, is rather convoluted.
> I will try to put it in more direct order, so we can discuss it.
> 
> My version: "é oportuno dar ao estudante a disciplina pela qual os seus desejos de fazer afirmações meramente estéticas fiquem subordinados à exata visão da finalidade concreta a que a obra se destina. Os desejos de afirmações meramente estéticas são uma perigosa tendência à extravagância, ao exagero ou à ênfase retórica."
> 
> Accordingly, I understand that you could say "desire to affirm only aesthetics", as opposed to the "concrete function".
> 
> In this case, I would definitely prefer to translate "meramente" as "only" or "just", instead of "pure".


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