# Φαίνεται να/ότι



## panettonea

Τι είναι η διαφορά μεταξύ _φαίνεται να _και _φαίνεται ότι_;  Ή έχει διαφορά καθόλου;


----------



## Perseas

panettonea said:


> (Τι) Ποια είναι η διαφορά μεταξύ του _φαίνεται να _και του _φαίνεται ότι_; ( Ή έχει διαφορά καθόλου) Ή δεν υπάρχει καθόλου διαφορά;



Π.χ. 
_Φαίνεται ότι δεν άκουσε.
Φαίνεται να μην άκουσε._

Καταρχάς, με το "ότι" εισάγεται ειδική πρόταση, ενώ με το "να" βουλητική πρόταση. 
Η βουλητική πρόταση παρουσιάζει κάτι ως κάπως αμφίβολο, ενώ η ειδική το παρουσιάζει ως πραγματικό.


----------



## panettonea

Perseas said:


> Τι) Ποια είναι η διαφορά μεταξύ του _φαίνεται να _και του _φαίνεται ότι_; ( Ή έχει διαφορά καθόλου) Ή δεν υπάρχει καθόλου διαφορά;



Ευχαριστώ για τις διορθώσεις/προτάσεις σας, Perseas.  I'm not sure I understand the reasons behind them all, but who cares, I guess.   



> Π.χ.
> _Φαίνεται ότι δεν άκουσε.
> Φαίνεται να μην άκουσε._
> 
> Καταρχάς, με το "ότι" εισάγεται ειδική πρόταση, ενώ με το "να" βουλητική πρόταση.
> Η βουλητική πρόταση παρουσιάζει κάτι ως κάπως αμφίβολο, ενώ η ειδική το παρουσιάζει ως πραγματικό.



Πείτε μου--περιμένετε πραγματικά να τα πιστέψω όλα αυτά;;;;  

Thank you.  Actually, I have a couple of comments:

1) Doesn't the presence of _φαίνεται _already imply a degree of uncertainty?
2) Is there an English equivalent of the two clauses you mention, ειδική and βουλητική?


----------



## Perseas

panettonea said:


> 1) Doesn't the presence of _φαίνεται _already imply a degree of uncertainty?
> 2) Is there an English equivalent of the two clauses you mention, ειδική and βουλητική?


1) Yes, you can say that, but I feel that "να" adds a bit more uncernainty.
2) I 'll try to describe it with my own words since English grammar is not my strong point.
Both types of clauses, "ειδική" & "βουλητική", are noun clauses in Greek, that is they can function as subject or object etc. The "ειδική πρόταση" is initiated with "ότι", "πως", "που" (rarely). The "βουλητική πρόταση" is initiated with "να". <"βουλητική" comes from the ancient verb "βούλομαι", which means "θέλω">. So I think that the equivalent of the "ειδική πρόταση" is the noun clause initiated with "that" and the equivalent of the "βουλητική πρόταση" is the infinitive clause. Examples:_
 She knows that she 'll pass the exam (ξέρει ότι θα περάσει τις εξετάσεις)
I want to come (θέλω να έρθω)
His goal was to become a teacher (Ο στόχος του ήταν να γίνει δάσκαλος)_


----------



## Mariana94

Just happened to be skimming through this very interesting thread...
Perseas' grammatical analysis has indeed revealed a thorough knowledge of Greek grammar. However, since I am not myself certain these sort of clauses could possibly have an English equivalent and given that the verb you're referring to is the impersonal φαίνεται, the explanation of βουλητική/ειδική πρόταση might sound a bit confusing. Therefore, I'll just provide two (hopefully) helpful examples I've thought of...

φαίνεται *να*: It seems *that* they get along well.-Φαίνεται να τα πηγαίνουν καλά. --> *να* introduces a hypothetical fact or supposition.

φαίνεται *ότι*: Things seem *to* get better.- Φαίνεται ότι τα πράγματα βελτιώνονται. --> *ότι* introduces a fact you're either quite sure it occurs/is about to occur or there are really strong indications of it being true.


----------



## Mariana94

Ευχαριστώ για τις διορθώσεις/προτάσεις σας, Perseas.  I'm not sure I understand the reasons behind them all, but who cares, I guess.   

Btw...
*What *is the difference--> *Ποια* είναι η διαφορά, I assume* τι* would sound more natural to you as you attempt an automatic english to greek translation, but when you're dealing with a feminine noun you equally need a female question word for it to be defined!
Μεταξύ is always followed by the genitive case, so your two verbs must be preceded by the neutral genitive case definitive article: μεταξύ *του* _φαίνεται να _και *του *_φαίνεται ότι_.
Or there's no difference *at all*?/they don't differ *at all*? --> What you'd place at the end of your english setence would be correct in greek if there was a verb instead of a noun, e.g. *Ή δε διαφέρουν καθόλου;* Otherwise, it's what Perseas has written.


----------



## panettonea

Perseas said:


> 1) Yes, you can say that, but I feel that "να" adds a bit more uncernainty.



OK, thanks--that makes sense.



> 2) I 'll try to describe it with my own words since English grammar is not my strong point.



Unlike Norwegian grammar, of course.  



> Both types of clauses, "ειδική" & "βουλητική", are noun clauses in Greek, that is they can function as subject or object etc. The "ειδική πρόταση" is initiated with "ότι", "πως", "που" (rarely).



Are clauses introduced by _που_ given another name as well?



> The "βουλητική πρόταση" is initiated with "να". <"βουλητική" comes from the ancient verb "βούλομαι", which means "θέλω">.



Yes, I was thinking of the word _volitional _as a possible English equivalent.



> So I think that the equivalent of the "ειδική πρόταση" is the noun clause initiated with "that" and the equivalent of the "βουλητική πρόταση" is the infinitive clause.



Thanks--that's helpful, along with your examples.



> Examples:_
> She knows that she 'll pass the exam (ξέρει ότι θα περάσει τις εξετάσεις)
> I want to come (θέλω να έρθω)
> His goal was to become a teacher (Ο στόχος του ήταν να γίνει δάσκαλος)_



These clauses would also qualify as _complement_ clauses, according to GACG.  

Well, I'm pressed for time today, but I see that Mariana94 has written some helpful things in this thread, and Αγγελος in some other threads.  Thank you to both of you for your comments as well, and I'll plan to take a detailed look at your posts when I have more time tomorrow hopefully.


----------



## Perseas

panettonea said:


> Unlike Norwegian grammar, of course.


Exactly! 



panettonea said:


> Are clauses introduced by _που_ given another name as well?


_που _introduces different types of dependent clauses: relative clauses, clauses of reason, "ειδικές". So its meaning is different accordingly.



panettonea said:


> Yes, I was thinking of the word _volitional _as a possible English equivalent.


The "βουλητικές" clauses mostly depend on verbs that have the meaning of _βούλομαι=θέλω_, like ζητώ, λαχταρώ, επιθυμώ, επιδιώκω..., and some other verbs, like _απαγορεύω, εμποδίζω, παραγγέλνω, προειδοποιώ_ etc., some impersonal verbs or phrases, like _πρέπει, απαγορεύεται, είναι ανάγκη_ etc. etc.
Examples: 
_Σου ζήτησα να κάνεις ησυχία.
Απαγορεύεται να καπνίζετε εδώ._


----------



## panettonea

Mariana94 said:


> the explanation of βουλητική/ειδική πρόταση might sound a bit confusing.



Yes, a bit. 



> φαίνεται να: It seems that they get along well.-Φαίνεται να τα πηγαίνουν καλά. --> να introduces a hypothetical fact or supposition.
> 
> φαίνεται ότι: Things seem to get better.- Φαίνεται ότι τα πράγματα βελτιώνονται. --> ότι introduces a fact you're either quite sure it occurs/is about to occur or there are really strong indications of it being true.



Thanks--those were very easy to follow.


----------



## panettonea

Mariana94 said:


> What is the difference--> Ποια είναι η διαφορά, I assume τι would sound more natural to you as you attempt an automatic english to greek translation



Yes.  



> but when you're dealing with a feminine noun you equally need a female question word for it to be defined!



Thanks.  So what would be some correct examples of sentences starting with τι είναι...?



> Μεταξύ is always followed by the genitive case, so your two verbs must be preceded by the neutral genitive case definitive article: μεταξύ του φαίνεται να και του φαίνεται ότι.



OK.  I knew that μεταξύ takes the genitive, but I didn't realize that you have to add articles to italicized/quoted phrases in such a case.  So would you also have to say something like το _Καλλιόπη_ είναι ωραίο όνομα? 



> Or there's no difference at all?/they don't differ at all? --> What you'd place at the end of your english setence would be correct in greek if there was a verb instead of a noun, e.g. Ή δε διαφέρουν καθόλου; Otherwise, it's what Perseas has written.



Oh, so you're saying that when there's only a verb present, καθόλου can go at the end?  Why do you need a negative, though, or is that required with καθόλου?  I wanted to say:  _Or is there really any difference at all?_  And why do you have to use υπάρχει instead of έχει, or is that just a matter of style?


----------



## panettonea

Perseas said:


> _που _introduces different types of dependent clauses: relative clauses, clauses of reason, "ειδικές". So its meaning is different accordingly.



Can you give an example of a "clause of reason"?



> The "βουλητικές" clauses mostly depend on verbs that have the meaning of _βούλομαι=θέλω_, like ζητώ, λαχταρώ, επιθυμώ, επιδιώκω..., and some other verbs, like _απαγορεύω, εμποδίζω, παραγγέλνω, προειδοποιώ_ etc., some impersonal verbs or phrases, like _πρέπει, απαγορεύεται, είναι ανάγκη_ etc. etc.



OK, thanks.



> _Απαγορεύεται να καπνίζετε εδώ._



Oh, so you're saying that WRF is a smoke-free zone?  Meaning that the mods will automatically delete the posts of anyone who lights up?


----------



## Mariana94

*So what would be some correct examples of sentences starting with τι είναι...?
*
*Τι είναι *followed by noun (or adjective/pronoun) in the nominative case, basically carrying the meaning of *what sort of or (depending on the context) what does sth mean
*Τι είναι <<λεμόνι>>;= Tι σημαίνει <<λεμόνι>>; --> What does ''lemon'' mean?
Τι προέλευσης/χρώματος είναι το λεμόνι;= Τι λεμόνι είναι; (careful with the word order in the second one) --> What sort of lemon is this? (italian, greek,green, light yellow, you name it). 
You can form similar, and of course less simplified examples, following this pattern and you may well replace the nouns with adjectives or pronouns. The common English question *What's this/that*, for instance, would be translated into greek as *Τι είναι αυτό/εκείνο, *implying once more the duo *sort-type-kind* or *meaning*.

*would you also have to say something like το Καλλιόπη είναι ωραίο όνομα? 

*Yes, you would. In fact, you could either say *το Καλλιόπη είναι ωραίο όνομα *or alternatively *το όνομα Καλλιόπη είναι ωραίο*

*Oh, so you're saying that when there's only a verb present, καθόλου can  go at the end?  Why do you need a negative, though, or is that required  with καθόλου?  I wanted to say:  Or is there really any difference at all?  And why do you have to use υπάρχει instead of έχει, or is that just a matter of style?                 

*Despite καθόλου you will most of the times need a negative verb form (I admit this might sound absurd to the native English speaker). However, chances are you're going to come across καθόλου followed by affirmative in questions. It's hard to cite rules for each and every case (better refer to a Greek teacher/grammar expert for that), however I can write a couple of representative sentence examples. 

Negative form: Δε σε ενδιαφέρουν καθόλου.= Καθόλου δε σε ενδιαφέρουν. --> You don't care about them at all.
Question form: Δε σε ενδιαφέρουν καθόλου;= Καθόλου δε σε ενδιαφέρουν;= Σε ενδιαφέρουν καθόλου; (don't ever go for Καθόλου σε ενδιαφέρουν; It's all wrong) --> Do you care about them at all? 
If you're looking for any possible differences in meaning I would say that the third one would well translate into: Is there a chance you care a bit about them?

Έχει and υπάρχει are synonyms, but the first is considered a bit colloquial. If you're to go formal, better choose υπάρχει. Έχει and είναι are used almost in every Greek sentence, while the language itself is copious of synonym verbs...


----------



## panettonea

Mariana94 said:


> *Τι είναι *followed by noun (or adjective/pronoun) in the nominative case, basically carrying the meaning of *what sort of or (depending on the context) what does sth mean
> *Τι είναι <<λεμόνι>>;= Tι σημαίνει <<λεμόνι>>; --> What does ''lemon'' mean?



But why isn't there a το before <<λεμόνι>>?     Also, if such a quote is considered neuter, it seems that Ποιο είναι το <<λεμόνι>>; would be required as well.  But maybe I'm trying a bit too hard to make logical sense of all this. 



> Τι προέλευσης/χρώματος είναι το λεμόνι;= Τι λεμόνι είναι; (careful with the word order in the second one) --> What sort of lemon is this? (italian, greek,green, light yellow, you name it).



OK, thanks.



> You can form similar, and of course less simplified examples, following this pattern and you may well replace the nouns with adjectives or pronouns. The common English question *What's this/that*, for instance, would be translated into greek as *Τι είναι αυτό/εκείνο, *implying once more the duo *sort-type-kind* or *meaning*.



I see.



> Yes, you would. In fact, you could either say *το Καλλιόπη είναι ωραίο όνομα *or alternatively *το όνομα Καλλιόπη είναι ωραίο*



That seems logical enough.



> Despite καθόλου you will most of the times need a negative verb form (I admit this might sound absurd to the native English speaker).



Yes, it does sound a bit strange to native English speakers.  Or me at least.   



> It's hard to cite rules for each and every case (better refer to a Greek teacher/grammar expert for that), however I can write a couple of representative sentence examples.



OK.  I suspect some of these rules just come naturally to most native speakers, even if they don't really know the reasons--which, of course, can be confusing to us non-native speakers.



> Negative form: Δε σε ενδιαφέρουν καθόλου.= Καθόλου δε σε ενδιαφέρουν. --> You don't care about them at all.
> Question form: Δε σε ενδιαφέρουν καθόλου;= Καθόλου δε σε ενδιαφέρουν;= Σε ενδιαφέρουν καθόλου; (don't ever go for Καθόλου σε ενδιαφέρουν; It's all wrong) --> Do you care about them at all?
> If you're looking for any possible differences in meaning I would say that the third one would well translate into: Is there a chance you care a bit about them?



Those are helpful--thank you.  You should probably major in some linguistic field in college IMO, if you're not doing so already.



> Έχει and υπάρχει are synonyms, but the first is considered a bit colloquial. If you're to go formal, better choose υπάρχει.



OK.  So it seems that Perseas's comment about my using έχει was more about style than grammar per se.



> while the language itself is copious of synonym verbs...



I've noticed that.  I guess the best solution is to learn the most common ones and not worry so much about the rest.  Thanks for all your help.


----------



## panettonea

I went back and looked in GACG, and found some interesting things about καθόλου.  First off, the authors classify it as either:

a) an adverb of manner
b) an adverb of quantity

Unfortunately, they don't explain the differences between the two at all.  They also use καθόλου in a few places without negation, and even without interrogation as well:

1) Βλέπεις καθόλου καρέκλα;
2) χωρίς καθόλου βοήθεια
3) με καθόλου ευχάριστο τρόπο

It's starting to appear that if there are any explicit rules concerning καθόλου, they are so arcane that only university professors of Greek know them.


----------



## ireney

Mod note: Please, don't make me split this thread up! One question per thread people, all other questions that arise _must_ be discussed in separate threads.


----------

