# הוא דומה ל in the past



## hadronic

Hello, 
I was wondering : הוא דומה לאבא שלו in the past tense seems to be הוא היה דומה לאבא שלו. 
Can one also say : הוא דמה לאבא שלו ?
And doesn't the compound form היה דומה contain a conditional meaning here?


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## ystab

One can say that, but the register of דמה is more formal, and also less frequent. Conjugations of this verb in the past tense (other than 3rd person singular m./f.) are even rarer.

במעשיו דמה לאביו (In his actions he resembled his father) - I intentionally used this form of posessive, because of the more formal register.
האירוע דמה לעצרת פוליטית יותר מאשר לטקס זיכרון (The event resembled a political rally rather than a memorial service).

Why do you think this form contains a conditional?


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## hadronic

Because usually, the so-called compound past form היה + beinoni conveys meaning of conditional (or repeated action in the past).


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## Drink

hadronic said:


> Because usually, the so-called compound past form היה + beinoni conveys meaning of conditional (or repeated action in the past).



I think you are misusing the word "conditional". Generally in grammar, "conditional" is used to refer to actions that depend on a condition (i.e. if X then Y), not actions that describe a condition. The latter is usually referred to as imperfective or progressive.


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## hadronic

I'm really talking about conditional in the meaning of "if X then Y".
Hebrew's compound past specifically has this meaning (in addition to the "repeated action in the past" one), and it never has the meaning of progressive past (which I wished it had  ), even though it looks like a progressive past (cf. English "I was / eating" - "hayiti / okhel", but means "I would eat", "I would have eaten").


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## Drink

hadronic said:


> I'm really talking about conditional in the meaning of "if X then Y".
> Hebrew's compound past specifically has this meaning (in addition to the "repeated action in the past" one), and it never has the meaning of progressive past (wish I wished it had  ), even though it looks like a progressive past (cf. English "I was / eating" - "hayiti / okhel", but means "I would eat", "I would have eaten").



I'm pretty sure it does have the progressive meaning and does not have the conditional meaning.


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## hadronic

So how do you make conditional sentences in Hebrew ?


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## Drink

hadronic said:


> So how do you make conditional sentences in Hebrew ?



Actually, you are right; the conditional is formed that way. I was mixing up the "if" part and the "then" part. I now realize that the conditional is the "then" part.


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## hadronic

Well, that's the case in English and French, but  Hebrew has (or can have) conditional in both parts. 
אם הייתי יודע, לא הייתי בא. 
The more formal לו ידעתי לא הייתי בא has it only in the then-clause.


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## Drink

hadronic said:


> Well, that's the case in English and French, but  Hebrew has (or can have) conditional in both parts.
> אם הייתי יודע, לא הייתי בא.
> The more formal לו ידעתי לא הייתי בא has it only in the then-clause.



But I would not call that a conditional. It's more of a subjunctive or simply imperfect.


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## hadronic

We can play with the words if you want. German does call it subjunctive.
But this shouldn't distract us from the fact that that tense is used to express conditional statements (תנאים), so we're better off using the word "conditional" in the context of Hebrew. We can also use the more neutral "compound past tense". But really, it's used to express conditions, and it's always rendered by "would" in English (including for the "repeated action in the past" meaning )
Hayiti rotse... : I would like_._..
Ma hayita ose bimkomi ? : What would you do in my stead ?
Im haya li kesef, hayiti kone mekhonit porshe : If I had money, I would buy a Porsche.
Kshe hayiti yeled, ima hayta mezameret li shirim lifney shena: When I was a child, Mom would sing me song before bed.  (repeated action).

In no case it is a subjunctive nor an imperfect in the Romance meaning of both terms (French: je fasse, je faisais).


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## Drink

hadronic said:


> We can play with the words if you want. German does call it subjunctive.
> But this shouldn't distract us from the fact that that tense is used to express conditional statements (תנאים), so we're better off using the word "conditional" in the context of Hebrew. We can also use the more neutral "compound past tense". But really, it's used to express conditions, and it's always rendered by "would" in English (including for the "repeated action in the past" meaning )
> Hayiti rotse... : I would like_._..
> Ma hayita ose bimkomi ? : What would you do in my stead ?
> Im haya li kesef, hayiti kone mekhonit porshe : If I had money, I would buy a Porsche.
> Kshe hayiti yeled, ima hayta mezameret li shirim lifney shena: When I was a child, Mom would sing me song before bed.  (repeated action).
> 
> In no case it is a subjunctive nor an imperfect in the Romance meaning of both terms (French: je fasse, je faisais).



I was referring to the "if" part. The "then" part is certainly a conditional.


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## hadronic

Well, Hebrew uses the same form in both parts. Just because it's also being used in the if-clause, doesn't make it less of a conditional.
French usually uses imperfect in the if-clause and conditional in the then-clause, but there's a very literary case where you can use "past conditional 2nd form" in both parts, and that's still labeled as conditional   (which originally was a subjunctive, but I disgress  )


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## Drink

hadronic said:


> Well, Hebrew uses the same form in both parts. Just because it's also being used in the if-clause, doesn't make it less of a conditional.
> French usually uses imperfect in the if-clause and conditional in the then-clause, but there's a very literary case where you can use "past conditional 2nd form" in both parts, and that's still labeled as conditional   (which originally was a subjunctive, but I disgress  )



But since this construction is also used for the imperfect, it makes sense to call it the imperfect in this case as well.


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## hadronic

Once again : it is never used for the imperfect.
"I was singing" is never translated to "הייתי שר". "I was singing" / "I sung" / "I have sung" / "I had sung" are all "שרתי"  (past tense).


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## hadronic

As you can see in my above examples, compound past used outside of an explicit "if/then" pattern is readily understood as a conditional, still.


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## Drink

hadronic said:


> Once again : it is never used for the imperfect.
> "I was singing" is never translated to "הייתי שר". "I was singing" / "I sung" / "I have sung" / "I had sung" are all "שרתי"  (past tense).



That is simply false. הייתי שר = I was singing.


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## Hollerblüte

Drink said:


> That is simply false. הייתי שר = I was singing.


Are you sure? I would actually appreciate to hear the opinion of Hebrew speakers on this.

Without further context, I'd  interpret הייתי שר as habitual past, i.e. 'I used to sing', as explained in Coffin/Bolozky, A reference grammar of Modern Hebrew, p. 298 and Glinert, The grammar of Modern Hebrew, p. 126, though Glinert also mentions a 'substandard' use of this construction as durative past (p. 125) and explains (p. 126):In some Oriental casual Hebrew, the compound past also denotes a durative past action, against the background of a momentary action:​*hayiti yashen* kshe-partsu      *הייתי ישן* כשפרצו
                     '*I was spleeping* when they broke in'​
So I'd be interested to know if Hebrew speakers would really interpret this as 'I was singing'.


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## hadronic

I agree with you except on one point : without further context, I would understand it as a conditional "I would sing".


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## tFighterPilot

Hollerblüte said:


> Are you sure? I would actually appreciate to hear the opinion of Hebrew speakers on this.
> 
> Without further context, I'd  interpret הייתי שר as habitual past, i.e. 'I used to sing', as explained in Coffin/Bolozky, A reference grammar of Modern Hebrew, p. 298 and Glinert, The grammar of Modern Hebrew, p. 126, though Glinert also mentions a 'substandard' use of this construction as durative past (p. 125) and explains (p. 126):In some Oriental casual Hebrew, the compound past also denotes a durative past action, against the background of a momentary action:​*hayiti yashen* kshe-partsu      *הייתי ישן* כשפרצו
> '*I was spleeping* when they broke in'​
> So I'd be interested to know if Hebrew speakers would really interpret this as 'I was singing'.


Actually, the sentence ישנתי כשפרצו would sound much more natural. הייתי followed by a verb pretty much always means "I used to" (not speaking about אם הייתי of course).


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## hadronic

Isn't conditional the default meaning of the compound past? 
הייתי רוצה would barely mean "I used to want".


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## arielipi

tFighterPilot said:


> Actually, the sentence ישנתי כשפרצו would sound much more natural. הייתי followed by a verb pretty much always means "I used to" (not speaking about אם הייתי of course).


In my opinion it is a somewhat poor compensation for lack of progressive tense in hebrew.


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## tFighterPilot

hadronic said:


> Isn't conditional the default meaning of the compound past?
> הייתי רוצה would barely mean "I used to want".


Yes, הייתי רוצה is an exception.


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## origumi

hadronic said:


> Once again : it is never used for the imperfect.
> "I was singing" is never translated to "הייתי שר". "I was singing" / "I sung" / "I have sung" / "I had sung" are all "שרתי"  (past tense).


What this statement is based on? To what period of Hebrew it refers? Forms like היו שרים can be used in Gemaraic & Modern Hebrew for past progressive / imperfect.

הלויים בבית המקדש היו שומרים על שערי המקדש והר הבית ובנוסף היו שרים ומנגנים בעת הקרבת הקורבנות (Wikipedia)


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## hadronic

Several things :
- Virtually all the grammar books, textbooks, articles on that topic I've seen mention this. Someone earlier provided reference to Glinert's Grammar (his Essential Grammar also formally excludes a progressive meaning for this form, Cf. chapters 19 and 82)
- It is also my field observations. Never saw / read / heard a usage if it with progressive meaning. My bilingual Fr-He friend cringed everytime I tried to use it for Past imperfect. Arielipi above agreed that it didn't sound natural in an example provided by a forumer (I was doing that / when sth happened). 
- Your example doesn't exclude a habitual past reading. 
- Can't find the reference anymore, but in a book dealing with usage of tenses in all periods of Hebrew, they said that compound past was used in medieval Hebrew writings as a progressive past, but that usage faded out and didn't catch on in Modern Hebrew (which is the only form of Hebrew I'm talking about). 
- Finally, we can't exclude, for the specific case of verbs like שר, גר... (weak medial), a kind of suppletive form arised from the homphony of past and present : הוא  גר vs הוא היה גר. And then this transfered to other persons. The compound form here is not necessarily a conditional / habitual.


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## origumi

It is habitual of course. Habitual past is represented in several languages by imperfect form, for example "The imperfect tense _(el imperfecto)_ is one of the several past tenses in Spanish. It is used mainly to describe past habitual actions ...". If you mean "imperfect which is not habitual" then indeed this exists only in colloquial language and not very often.


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## hadronic

That's why here I'm talking about meanings (conditional / habitual / progressive / imperfect), and not the name of tenses of a given language. Spanish so-called imperfect does have the meaning of past habitual, but in English it's the so-called conditional that usually acts for it (while Past Progressive can certainly do as well).


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