# أرواح الأشباح في الكلام على الأرواح



## Worthdale

Good day, 

I need some help translating this book title. Thanks in advance. 

I came up with "The souls of spirits concerning speech on the souls" I thought the phrase "souls of spirits" may be referring to the deceased scholars the author quotes.
أرواح الأشباح في الكلام على الأرواح​


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## HotIcyDonut

The souls and spirits in the discourse (on/about) souls


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## analeeh

I think this is a classic old-fashioned literary title where the first portion is just a pretty and evocative phrase meant to act as the identifying title and the second part actually tells you what the book is about.


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## tracer2

It always helps to know about a book in general:  its author (not just name.....who is he?...why is he important), the field  (of study), the date (century at least), where you found it, why it interests you........and so on.  I can tell you that "translating" word for word almost never works out successfully in cases like this.  For example, your rendition *"The souls of spirits concerning speech on the souls"  *is pretty much meaningless in modern day English for even the educated native English speaker/reader.  It almost seems like a joke title, actually.


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## WadiH

Sounds like a book on necromancy?

For these kinds of titles, it's not uncommon to transliterate instead of translate.  So you can say _The Arwah Al-Ashbah on Necromancy_ by so and so, or just say so and so's _Book of Necromancy_.  (Although sometimes translation results in cool-sounding titles like Al-Mas'oudi's _Meadows of Gold_.)


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## Worthdale

This book is about the soul at the time of sleep, in the grave, in the realm between life and death, in the grave, the soul of the martyrs etc.


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## WadiH

Ok I was really far then, sorry! You can replace "Necromancy" with "Souls" or "Spirits" then.


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## Abbe

I was wondering if it's possible to translate ashbah as body in this context. Lane has an example
هم أشباح بلا أرواح and he translates it to They are bodies without soul

The souls of the bodies - An exposition/essay/description of the [different states of the] souls

I would prefer something like this
The body and the soul - a treaty on the different states of the soul


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## Mahaodeh

Abbe said:


> I was wondering if it's possible to translate ashbah as body


شبح only means ghost in dialects and MSA. In Classical Arabic it meant “an undistinguished humanlike body”, as in what you see at a distance in the dark, or behind a curtain or something. You can’t tell if it’s a man or a woman or a mannequin or an orangutan.

From لسان العرب:
الشَّبَحُ: ما بدا لك شخصُه من الناس وغيرهم من الخلق 
From المعجم الوسيط:
الشَّبَحُ : ما بَدَا لك شَخْصُهُ غير جَليّ من بُعْدٍ

So I’d say yes, you can translate it to body.


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## Abbe

Is silhouette a better translation (even though it might not fit in this context)?


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## tracer2

Abbe said:


> I would prefer something like this
> The body and the soul - *a treaty* on the different states of the soul



I believe you mean *treatise (شرح.... توضيح....بحث، مقالة*) (رسالة علمية....أطروحة). (Not sure of the exact academic Arabic word)

not.....
*treaty = معاهدة....اتفاق*

But yes, your title is excellent.


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## tracer2

Abbe said:


> Is silhouette a better translation (even though it might not fit in this context)?


I would not use "silhouette" for a number of reasons, mainly, as you said, it does not fit the context.


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## Abbe

Thank you, but I was thinking more generally in accordance with what was quoted by Maha from Lisan al-arab and al-wasit.


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## Worthdale

I appreciate the responses. Here is a synopsis of the book.

قد افتتح المصنِّفُ هذا الكتاب بمقدِّمة في الكلام على آية الرُّوح في سورة الإسراء، تلتها فصولٌ في الكلام عن الرُّوح، ثم في الكلام على الأرواح عند النَّوم، وعلى موت الأرواح ومن يقبِضُها، وفي الكلام عن الأرواح في القبر، ومستقرها بعد الموت، وعن أرواح الشُّهداء، وختمه بخاتمة في الحشر


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## tracer2

Worthdale said:


> I appreciate the responses. Here is a synopsis of the book.
> 
> قد افتتح المصنِّفُ هذا الكتاب بمقدِّمة في الكلام على آية الرُّوح في سورة الإسراء، تلتها فصولٌ في الكلام عن الرُّوح، ثم في الكلام على الأرواح عند النَّوم، وعلى موت الأرواح ومن يقبِضُها، وفي الكلام عن الأرواح في القبر، ومستقرها بعد الموت، وعن أرواح الشُّهداء، وختمه بخاتمة في الحشر


*Based on your synopsis:*
This is what it's called in Arabic:   *أرواح الأشباح في الكلام على الأرواح*
This is what it means in English:  *The Spirit Unleashed:  Wanderings of the Souls of Man*


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## analeeh

That might work as a title (although it sounds more like something you'd find in a New Age Magick Shop than a classical Arabic treatise) but it's not a translation.

The best translation, to my mind, is simply _On Souls_, or perhaps _The_ Arwāḥ al-Ashbāḥ_ on Souls._


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## tracer2

analeeh said:


> That might work as a title (although it sounds more like something you'd find in a New Age Magick Shop than a classical Arabic treatise) but it's not a translation.
> 
> The best translation, to my mind, is simply _On Souls_, or perhaps _The_ Arwāḥ al-Ashbāḥ_ on Souls._


Well, _*On Souls* _sounds like a translation of a mystical  Russian novel by Turgenev or Dostoevsky. And your other suggestion...._*The*_* Arwāḥ al-Ashbāḥ*_* on Souls* _would be totally incomprehensible to native English readers.

The whole object of translating, interpreting, whatever one wants to call it, is to render a non-English text into contemporary, understandable English.... with as close attention as possible to both the letter and the spirit of the original. 

That's why most "translations" fall flat on their faces....they lack the spirit or the letter of the original....but usually they lack both.


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## WadiH

tracer2 said:


> _*The*_* Arwāḥ al-Ashbāḥ*_* on Souls* _would be totally incomprehensible to native English readers.



Neither is "Iliad", "Odyssey", "Bhahavad Gita" or "Mishna". It's not intended to be.


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## analeeh

The object of translation, it is generally agreed, depends entirely on the intended purpose and audience of the final text.

If you were translating this book and planning on marketing it to a general English-speaking audience, giving it a catchy-sounding new title would be totally appropriate. If, on the other hand, you wanted to reference it in an academic account of medieval Islamic theology, you would probably just leave it in transliteration. For any middle ground, an idiomatic but relatively close translation (as opposed to a completely new title) is probably the best option.


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