# Urdu: How to represent the English "by"



## Qureshpor

*Urdu uses mainly se for the English preposition by. However, there are other ways.

Transport: By train: gaaRii se/meN

Medium: By air: ba-zarii'ah havaa

Agent/Passive voice: The criminal was arrested by police.

mujrim police ke haathoN giriftaar hu'aa.

[NB. Hindi uses "police-dvaaraa". Can we come up with something similar in Urdu?]




*


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## Qureshpor

QURESHPOR said:


> *Urdu uses mainly se for the English preposition by. However, there are other ways.
> 
> Transport: By train: gaaRii se/meN
> 
> Medium: By air: ba-zarii'ah havaa
> 
> Agent/Passive voice: The criminal was arrested b
> 
> *



*Any takers?*


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## tonyspeed

QURESHPOR said:


> *Any takers?*




ke zariye ?


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## BP.

As you mentioned, we have _see _and _bah zariah ee_. You could add _bah raah ee_ to that list.

The same preposition in 'arrested by the police' expresses another idea, not 'carried/transported by'. So for me a different expression is fine enough, e.g.' 'police nee giriftaar kiaa'.


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## Qureshpor

BelligerentPacifist said:


> As you mentioned, we have _see _and _bah zariah ee_. You could add _bah raah ee_ to that list.
> 
> The same preposition in 'arrested by the police' expresses another idea, not 'carried/transported by'. So for me a different expression is fine enough, e.g.' 'police nee giriftaar kiaa'.



*PG SaaHib. The point of my initial post is that although Urdu/Hindi/Punjabi has a fully developed passive voice, it does not normally indicate the agent.

PG SaaHib wrote a letter. (Active voice)

PG SaaHib ne Khat likhaa 

The letter was written by PG Sahib (Passive voice)

Khat PG SaaHib ke haathoN likhaa gayaa

I am asking our readers if we can think of something better than "ke haathoN". We could have an animal as the agent or a machine. For a machine "se" will suffice but for an animal, perhaps not. Hindi has made an innovation by using "dvaaraa" for "by". Can we come up with something short (one word if possible) and simple?


*


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## BP.

This reader is currently out of ideas, sorry.


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## Qureshpor

BelligerentPacifist said:


> This reader is currently out of ideas, sorry.



*You know what your problem is PG SaaHib? You give up too easily!


*


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## Qureshpor

*Transport: By train: gaaRii se/meN

Medium: By air: havaa se; ba-zarii'ah havaa

[Instrument: With a knife:** chhurii se kaaTo]*

*Agent (animate)-Passive voice:

The criminal was arrested by police.

mujrim police ke haathoN* giriftaar hu'aa/kiyaa gayaa.

*On book covers or in newspapers one finds authorship expressed by the word az, e.g. ba-jang aamad az Karnal Muhammad Khan where az clearly means by. I can't see why we can not use this word in place of ke haathoN. The word is short, familiar and in the context unambiguous.

**The criminal was arrested by police.*
*
mujrim **az **police giriftaar kiyaa gayaa.

The lion was killed by Hercules with a sword.

sher **az** Hercules** talvaar se maaraa gayaa*.

*The poor villager was killed by a tiger.

be-chaarah dehaatii az baagh maaraa gayaa.
**



 *


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## Faylasoof

*mujrim police **ke zari3e **giriftaar hu'aa/kiyaa gayaa* - as mentioned above by tonyspeed.

*mujrim police * *kii badaulat **giriftaar hu'aa/kiyaa gayaa*

*mujrim police * *ke wasiile (se) **giriftaar hu'aa/kiyaa gayaa*

*mujrim police * *ke sabab **giriftaar hu'aa/kiyaa gayaa*

*(mujrim police* * sabab **giriftaar hu'aa/kiyaa gayaa *– I’ve heard this too!)

*mujrim police * *kii** binaa **giriftaar hu'aa/kiyaa gayaa*

*mujrim police * *ke baa3ith **giriftaar hu'aa/kiyaa gayaa*


 [Even this,

*mujrim police * *kii wajh **giriftaar hu'aa/kiyaa gayaa - *more like _due to the police _rather than _by the police_.But that is true also for some of the one above.*]*


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> *mujrim police **ke zari3e **giriftaar hu'aa/kiyaa gayaa* - as mentioned above by tonyspeed.
> 
> *mujrim police * *kii badaulat **giriftaar hu'aa/kiyaa gayaa*
> 
> *mujrim police * *ke wasiile (se) **giriftaar hu'aa/kiyaa gayaa*
> 
> *mujrim police * *ke sabab **giriftaar hu'aa/kiyaa gayaa*
> 
> *(mujrim police* * sabab **giriftaar hu'aa/kiyaa gayaa *– I’ve heard this too!)
> 
> *mujrim police * *kii** binaa **giriftaar hu'aa/kiyaa gayaa*
> 
> *mujrim police * *ke baa3ith **giriftaar hu'aa/kiyaa gayaa*
> 
> 
> [Even this,
> 
> *mujrim police * *kii wajh **giriftaar hu'aa/kiyaa gayaa - *more like _due to the police _rather than _by the police_.But that is true also for some of the one above.*]*



*Please allow me to express my gratitude for the thoroughness of your responses. This no doubt is not only a time consuming process but also a tiring one.

Your examples on the whole are using words conveying "cause". "By" implies "agent". Yours are all acceptable sentences whereas my sentences with "az" as the agent-indicator is "new", so sticks out like a sore thumb! But, don't you think it could be a viable method to reproduce a passive sentence with an agent?
*


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> *
> Please allow me to express my gratitude for the thoroughness of your responses. This no doubt is not only a time consuming process but also a tiring one.
> 
> Your examples on the whole are using words conveying "cause". "By" implies "agent". Yours are all acceptable sentences whereas my sentences with "az" as the agent-indicator is "new", so sticks out like a sore thumb! But, don't you think it could be a viable method to reproduce a passive sentence with an agent?
> *


 It wasn't too bad! I mean didn't take that long but what I thought I'd give you are the _idiomatic expressions_ we use. So, yes, I am giving words that have "cause" meaning (rather than _*by*_)but that is what we use  - use these we a lot. 

The _*az*_ expressions are _not idiomatic_! Yes, literally they mean _*by*_, but you'll not hear any real Urdudaan use them this way. We nearly always change them either to either those employing the "cause" words or make the sentence active!
_*
genDe ne shikaarii ko Halaak kar diyaa / Daalaa**!*_
_The rhino killed the hunter !_

Rather than,

_*shikaarii genDe se Halaak ho gayaa**!*_

Or 

_*shikaarii az genDaa Halaak ho gayaa!*_

_These (in blue) will be considered very poor Urdu! So I wouldn't use them._

We do say: _*woh saxsh bas se halaak ho gayaa*_. Although even this we may try to make active! But this passive is used often.

Reason why the passive for bus is alright and not for a rhino?  I think it has to do with what is animate and what is not. A rhino (or other living things) can actively kill so we go for an active tense. For a bus, an inanimate object, it is OK to use the passive form. Another example for an inanimate object:

_*woh log chaTaan girne se zaxmii hue *_
_They were injured by falling rocks_

But we do say: 

_*yeh haath se likhaa gayaa hai*_
_This has been written by hand

_Now our hand is not quite inanimate (i.e. there is life in it)! But it is _part_ of an animate being so it is being treated as if it was inanimate! 

_*yeh qalam se likhaa gayaa hai*_
_This has been written by a pen

_ Hence, we don't say: _*yeh mujh se lakhaa gayaa*_  to mean _it was written by me_! This instead would mean _I was able to write it!

_For,_ it was written by me, _we'd change it to active tense: _*yeh maiN ne likhaa*_ = I wrote it. 

... and for,_ this book is written by me = *yeh kitaab mere haath kii likhii hai

Edit
*Just needed to add a corollary to the point I made about animate / inanimate and active / passive tense above. Actually, there is more to it because we need to keep in mind whether an action is voluntary or not!

yeh kaaghazaat mujh *se* barbaad hue !
These papers got ruined *by* me!

This suggests accidental / unpremeditated / involuntary action although we are talking about an animate being performing the action!
_


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> The _*az*_ expressions are _not idiomatic_! Yes, literally they mean _*by*_, but you'll not hear any real Urdudaan use them this way. We nearly always change them either to either those employing the "cause" words or make the sentence active!
> _*
> genDe ne shikaarii ko Halaak kar diyaa / Daalaa**!*_
> _The rhino killed the hunter !_
> 
> Rather than,
> 
> _*shikaarii genDe se Halaak ho gayaa**!*_
> 
> Or
> 
> _*shikaarii az genDaa Halaak ho gayaa!*_
> 
> _These (in blue) will be considered very poor Urdu! So I wouldn't use them._
> 
> *Faylasoof SaaHib. My original aim was to come up with a way to express the use of "by" in a passive construction involving an animate agent that is equivalent to the Hindi "dvaaraa". As you will no doubt know, this too is a "neologism". In early days, Hindi speakers must have found this to be awful too. The "az" usage for this "by", is rather neat, at least in my view! By the way, is the word "genDaa" or "gaiNDaa"?
> 
> "halaak ho gayaa" is not the kind of passive that I had in mind. For these sentences, "se" is sufficient and there is no need for "az". **"halaak ho gayaa" to my mind is not "was killed" (maaraa gayaa= kushtah shud) but "became/got killed" (halaak shud).
> 
> shikaarii az gaiNDaa halaak kiyaa gayaa. <- I'm sorry, but this is awful Urdu!! - (Faylasoof)
> 
> The hunter was killed by a rhyno.
> *
> We do say: _*woh saxsh bas se halaak ho gayaa*_. Although even this we may try to make active! But this passive is used often.
> 
> Reason why the passive for bus is alright and not for a rhino?  I think it has to do with what is animate and what is not. A rhino (or other living things) can actively kill so we go for an active tense. For a bus, an inanimate object, it is OK to use the passive form.
> 
> _*"woh saxsh bas se halaak ho gayaa" <- *_*I gave this example to compare with the geNDaa example above and why this works OK. Reasons below! -(Faylasoof)
> *_*
> That person got killed by a bus.
> *_
> Another example for an inanimate object:
> 
> _*woh log chaTaan girne se zaxmii hue  <- *_*Idiomatic Urdu - (Faylasoof)*
> _They were injured by falling rocks
> 
> *Here the "se" is "causal".
> 
> vuh log luu se halaak ho ga'e *_*<-Good! Another example of**idiomatic Urdu. where the Hindi-Urdu is used. -(Faylasoof)*
> 
> But we do say:
> 
> _*yeh haath se likhaa gayaa hai *_*<- Please note use of **haath, i.e. singular, here.**-(Faylasoof).*
> _This has been written by hand
> 
> _Now our hand is not quite inanimate (i.e. there is life in it)! But it is _part_ of an animate being so it is being treated as if it was inanimate!
> 
> _*yeh qalam se likhaa gayaa hai*_
> _This has been written by a pen
> 
> *These two examples are depicting the "instrumental case", for which Urdu uses "se". The "by" can be replaced with a "with".
> 
> sher az Tarzan Khanjar se maaraa gayaa <- Sorry! Again, awful Urdu! -(Faylasoof).
> 
> The lion was killed by Tarzan with a dagger.
> *
> _ Hence, we don't say: _*yeh mujh se lakhaa gayaa*_  to mean _it was written by me_! This instead would mean _I was able to write it!
> 
> _For,_ it was written by me, _we'd change it to active tense: _*yeh maiN ne likhaa*_ = I wrote it.
> 
> ... and for,_ this book is written by me = *yeh kitaab mere haath kii likhii hai
> 
> or...yih kitaab mere haathoN likhii ga'ii hai. <-*_* We don't use the plural! Always the singular, as you mention below and as i mention above in this post - (Faylasoof)*_*
> 
> I think "haathoN" here is not "haathoN se" but "haath se" and it is the same type of word as "duudhoN" and "puutoN", as "duudhoN nahaa'o puutoN phalo". I believe it is the old "locative" case (?). To avoid the use of "hand" as not all animate beings carry out their deeds by the use of hands, "az" is sufficient to indicate the agent as a whole and not as a part!
> 
> Edit
> *Just needed to add a corollary to the point I made about animate / inanimate and active / passive tense above. Actually, there is more to it because we need to keep in mind whether an action is voluntary or not!
> 
> yeh kaaghazaat mujh *se* barbaad hue !
> These papers got ruined *by* me!
> 
> *Again, not the "Lion/Tarzan" type of passive! *_*<-QP SaHeb, Sorry, but I feel you haven't understood what I'm saying here and the rest of the post! -(Faylasoof)*_
> 
> This suggests accidental / unpremeditated / involuntary action although we are talking about an animate being performing the action! *<- I mean this! *_* -(Faylasoof)*


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## Faylasoof

Faylasoof said:


> _*The az expressions are not idiomatic! Yes, literally they mean by, but you'll not hear any real Urdudaan use them this way. *_We nearly always change them either to either those employing the "cause" words or make the sentence active!
> _*
> genDe ne shikaarii ko Halaak kar diyaa / Daalaa**!*_
> _The rhino killed the hunter !_
> 
> Rather than,
> 
> _*shikaarii genDe se Halaak ho gayaa**!*_
> 
> Or
> 
> _*shikaarii az genDaa Halaak ho gayaa!*_
> 
> _These (in blue) will be considered very poor Urdu! So I wouldn't use them._



QP Saheb, allow me to repeat this! The _*az*_ expressions (as one mentioned above) are simply not used!  ... and I mean never! Same for the _*se*_ expression I mention. Wedo use se expressions but _*se*_ not used in this contest. They are considered very bad Urdu! I've already explained so I need not repeat!

We do however, use _*az*_ in some contexts, like, for example,  _*fulaaN *__*fulaaN *__*kitaab az fulaaN *__*fulaaN*__* muSannif*_ = Such and such a book by so and so author.

BTW, it is _*genDaa! *_


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> QP Saheb, allow me to repeat this! The _*az*_ expressions (as one mentioned above) are simply not used!  ... and I mean never! Same for the _*se*_ expression I mention. Wedo use se expressions but _*se*_ not used in this contest. They are considered very bad Urdu! I've already explained so I need not repeat!
> 
> We do however, use _*az*_ in some contexts, like, for example,  _*fulaaN *__*fulaaN *__*kitaab az fulaaN *__*fulaaN*__* muSannif*_ = Such and such a book by so and so author.
> 
> BTW, it is _*genDaa! *_



*Unfortunately Faylasoof SaaHib, you appear to have missed my point. But, no matter.*


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> *
> Unfortunately Faylasoof SaaHib, you appear to have missed my point. But, no matter.*


 Sorry, but I was only pointing out good Urdu from bad! There are others here as well and they happen to be less familiar then us with the syntax of our language, so I thought I'd better mention some points. I'm sure they'd like to learn good Urdu.

.. and I don't think I missed what you wanted to say. Anyway, we can leave it at that.


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## marrish

QURESHPOR said:


> *Urdu uses mainly se for the English preposition by. However, there are other ways.
> 
> Transport: By train: gaaRii se/meN
> 
> Medium: By air: ba-zarii'ah havaa
> 
> Agent/Passive voice: The criminal was arrested by police.
> 
> mujrim police ke haathoN giriftaar hu'aa.
> 
> [NB. Hindi uses "police-dvaaraa". Can we come up with something similar in Urdu?]
> *



Let me begin with asking your pardon for reviving this thread, but it's not without a reason.

In this kind of sentences where the passive voice has to be used for the sake of the sentence's structure, the following is used at times:

مجرم پولیس کی جانب سے گرفتار ہوا۔

انہیں پولیس کی جانب سے کھڑی کی گئی رکاوٹوں کا سامنا کرنا پڑا


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## Alfaaz

In addition to the excellent choices already mentioned could we use/borrow these from Arabic/Persian for this specific purpose or any other such words? توسط , من جانب , بواسطہ,

Edit: but these may be used in Urdu with slightly different meanings, so are there any non-Urdu words....


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