# die sich gerade in optimistischen Naturen zur Mystik rettete



## Löwenfrau

Hi.
I'm not sure I'm understanding this phrase correctly:

"Eine Geschichte der Mystik müßte noch geschrieben werden. Sie würde vielleicht lehren, daß auf jede Periode gesteigerten Wissenshochmuts eine Periode des Wissenschaftsbankerotts und der Verzweiflung folgte, die sich gerade in optimistischen Naturen zur Mystik rettete." Mauthner

"... which (eine Periode des Wissenschaftsbankerotts?) in optimistic natures taked refuge precisely in mysticism"

Is that close?

Thanks in advance.


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## Schimmelreiter

_... and despair, from which the more optimistic escaped into mysticism._


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## bearded

To SR:
Does in the above sentence the word 'gerade' have the same function as in _als ich ihn sah, schrieb er gerade_ (I suppose this is your interpretation, since you did not translate the word, but, if so, shouldn't it affect the tense of _sich rettete__? _Maybe 'were escaping?), or does it mean 'precisely', as LF wrote? And in the latter case, should it not be translated?
Thank you in advance for letting me know your opinion.


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## Hutschi

I think it means here more "genau" or "besonders/in besonderem Maße",  "ausgerechnet", nicht in anderen Naturen sondern in diesen besonderen Naturen.

especially/precisely



> It is like Gerade du!
> You of all people!


http://www.dict.cc/german-english/gerade.html

Can you express this "gerade" with "just"?

"Just this type of people"? (gerade dieser Typ Mensch?)
... or "right this type..."?


I think "gerade" should be translated but maybe not as word if you have another method of emphasizing the fact (in optimistischen Naturen).

STRUCTURE


> "Eine Geschichte der Mystik müßte noch geschrieben werden. Sie würde vielleicht lehren, daß auf jede Periode gesteigerten Wissenshochmuts eine Periode des Wissenschaftsbankerotts und der Verzweiflung folgte, die sich gerade in optimistischen Naturen zur Mystik rettete." Mauthner


 (Verzweiflung vs. Optimismus works - both are psychologic entities.)

This "gerade" gives an extra hint to the contradictionary between optimistic people and their dispair.

I think "die" refers to "Verzweiflung". Theoretically it may also refer to "Periode" - but this does not make so much sense together with "gerade" (ausgerechnet). (It reduces the contrast. And "despair" can save itself, but "Bankrott" is absolute, it cannot save itself into mysticism)


If you only consider grammar, "die" and "gerade" can also refer to the time. (Periode)
I do not think so, because it reduces the polemic, and there is another context problem with periodicity.



> "Eine Geschichte der Mystik müßte noch geschrieben werden. Sie würde vielleicht lehren, daß auf jede Periode gesteigerten Wissenshochmuts eine Periode des Wissenschaftsbankerotts und der Verzweiflung folgte, die sich gerade in optimistischen Naturen zur Mystik rettete." Mauthner


As far as I see this "gerade"  is blocked by the implicite plural character of "periode" (jeder Periode) - and by "gerade in optimistischen Naturen".


It should be "gerade dann" to refer to time:



> "Eine Geschichte der Mystik müßte noch geschrieben werden. Sie würde vielleicht lehren, daß auf jede Periode gesteigerten Wissenshochmuts *eine Periode* des Wissenschaftsbankerotts und der Verzweiflung *folgte*, *die* *sich* *gerade dann* in optimistischen Naturen zur Mystik rettete."


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## berndf

bearded man said:


> Does in the above sentence the word 'gerade' have the same function as in _als ich ihn sah, schrieb er gerade_


No. As Hutschi wrote, it is a different _gerade_:


Schimmelreiter said:


> _... and despair, from which* especially *the more optimistic escaped into mysticism._


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## bearded

Thanks to the above explanations, I can now see that SR did in fact translate 'gerade' (especially) when he wrote ''the MORE optimistic''.  That had escaped my attention.


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## berndf

I don't think SR's _more_ is warranted by anything in the original sentence. It just "flows better" in English with _more_.


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## bearded

Well, 'especially  optimistic natures' is rendered as 'the more optimistic (ones)', it seems to me. Among different natures, especially the optimistic ones... = the more optimistic ones...


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## Schimmelreiter

The liberties I permitted myself in saying,





Schimmelreiter said:


> _... and despair, from which the more optimistic escaped into mysticism._


are nothing compared with the oddities M. permitted himself in saying, 





Löwenfrau said:


> Sie würde vielleicht lehren, daß auf jede Periode gesteigerten Wissenshochmuts eine Periode des Wissenschaftsbankerotts und der Verzweiflung folgte, die sich gerade in optimistischen Naturen zur Mystik rettete.


Did the period escape, or did despair escape? How on earth can either one escape? And, moreover, it especially escaped in optimistic natures, seeking refuge in mysticism. I didn't smoke what M. had before writing his. This gives me yet another opportunity to assure you of my deep respect for having taken it upon you to translate him.


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## berndf

bearded man said:


> Well, 'especially  optimistic natures' is rendered as 'the more optimistic (ones)', it seems to me. Among different natures, especially the optimistic ones... = the more optimistic ones...


_Especially the optimistic ones_ means _the optimistic ones more than the non optimistic ones_. 
_The more optimistic ones_ means _the ones how were more optimistic than the average_.

In the first case, _more/especially _applies to the propensity to escape into mysticism.
In the second case, _more _applies to the degree of optimism.

You cannot replace _especially _with _more _without significantly altering the meaning.


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## berndf

Schimmelreiter said:


> The liberties I permitted myself in saying,are nothing compared with the oddities M. permitted himself...


I didn't object to your translation; I find your "liberties" totally acceptable. I only explained to BM that your _more _does not translate _gerade_.


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## Löwenfrau

But let's not forget Hutschi's remark 





> This "gerade" gives an extra hint to the contradictionary between optimistic people and their dispair.



This extra hint to the contradiction between optimistic people and their despair, as I see it, it's not quite evident with "especially", that's why I chose "precisely". Actually, I must explain that, of course, I'm thinking in Portuguese, in which we have a good option for "gerade" in this function: _justamente. _I'm not sure if there is a correspondent in English. I'll try to explain using an example, which is close, but not the same. In the phrase Julius Caesar spoke to Brutus, "even you, Brutus?", there is a contrast: "even you? you are the least person I would expect that." But here J. C. had other traitors before, so Brutus is an addition: "all of them, and now even you". But if the only traitor had been Brutus, how should the phrase be? In Portuguese we would say: "Justamente você, Brutus?" (less formal: "justo você, Brutus?", or "Logo você, Brutus?". And I note: this "logo" is a perfect translation for gerade, because it covers other meanings of the German word (temporal) too.
I hope I was clear in my attempt to explain my point. Now, I'd really like to confirm if this is the hint that Hutschi was talking about... ?


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## Löwenfrau

P.S.: I have a question on "Verzweiflung". In this case, could I use "disbelief" instead of "despair"? The knowledge is the issue, and knowledge is disbelieved. Verzweiflung, doesn't it come from "zweifeln"?

Other possibility: hopelessness.


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## berndf

Löwenfrau said:


> ..could I use "disbelief" instead of "despair"?


No.


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## Schimmelreiter

Löwenfrau said:


> Hutschi said:
> 
> 
> 
> This "gerade" gives an extra hint to the contradictionary between optimistic people and their dispair.
Click to expand...

Where's the contradiction? Rather than succumb to despair, the optimists escaped to mysticism: Mysticism is the escapism of a period in which science went bankrupt and the less optimistic have nothing left but despair.


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## Löwenfrau

Schimmelreiter said:


> Where's the contradiction? Rather than succumb to despair, the optimists escaped to mysticism: Mysticism is the escapism of a period in which science went bankrupt and the less optimistic have nothing left but despair.



I would expect the pessimists, not the optimists, to fall into despair first...


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## Schimmelreiter

Löwenfrau said:


> I would expect the pessimists, not the optimists, to fall into despair first...


The optimists escaped from the period's despair. Mysticism was their refuge. After science had failed to give them answers and let them find truth, they were optimistic mysticism would.


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## Löwenfrau

I see, it makes good sense.

So, in this case, "especially" would be right choice.


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## Schimmelreiter

Löwenfrau said:


> especially


I don't see much semantic value, if any, in _gerade. _If you are optimistic by nature (see M.'s wording) and you see science go bankrupt, you escape the period's despair, retain your optimistic nature and henceforth put your trust in mysticism, expecting from it the answers science turned out unable to provide.


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## berndf

Schimmelreiter said:


> I don't see much semantic value, if any, in _gerade. _If you are optimistic by nature (see M.'s wording) and you see science go bankrupt, you escape the period's despair, retain your optimistic nature and henceforth put your trust in mysticism, expecting from it the answers science turned out unable to provide.


Less optimistic people are less likely to hope to gain anything from turning to mysticism and that is why _especially* _optimistic people escape into mysticism.
___________________________
*_especially adv = used to single out one person or thing over all others._


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## Schimmelreiter

berndf said:


> _especially* _optimistic people escape into mysticism.


My reading is that the less optimistic despair, "contracting" the despair that characterises the period. It takes the optimists' optimism to avoid "contagion" and, rather than succumb to the period's despair, turn to mysticism with their questions, hoping for answers.

So my reading boils down to _[only] the optimists_ rather than _especially the optimists._ Why would _any_ pessimist _not despair_ of his search for answers and, ultimately, for upper-case _Truth_​ once he's found the trust and hopes thwarted that he used to put in science? It takes


Löwenfrau said:


> optimistische[n] Naturen


to _​not despair._


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## berndf

Schimmelreiter said:


> My reading is that the less optimistic despair, "contracting" the despair that characterises the period. It takes the optimists' optimism to avoid "contagion" and, rather than succumb to the period's despair, turn to mysticism with their questions, hoping for answers.
> 
> So my reading boils down to _[only] the optimists_ rather than _especially the optimists._ Why would _any_ pessimist _not despair_ of his search for answers and, ultimately, for upper-case _Truth_​ once he's found the trust and hopes thwarted that he used to put in science? It takes
> to _​not despair._


I think both despair. The optimists see a way out of desperation (by turning to mysticism); pessimists don't.

I am not saying I agree. But that's how I read M.


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## Löwenfrau

I don't disagree with that, SR. But I don't think I should _use_ "only" because doing this might change the emphasis (with "only" I would naturally understand the emphasis as "only", with "specially" I'd understanding it as "optimistic natures" - at least, this is how it sounds in Portuguese), and, besides, Mauthner _could have used_ "nur die optimistischen Naturen" or "die optimistischen Naturen allein", so why decide for him which word is the best word?


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## Schimmelreiter

berndf said:


> I think both despair.


You're absolutely right. Both despair. One might also say both despair *of* science. But 





berndf said:


> The optimists see a way out of desperation (by turning to mysticism); pessimists don't.


Exactly my reading. It's the despair/desperation difference you indicated earlier but I wasn't attentive enough to follow up.





Löwenfrau said:


> I don't disagree with that, SR. But I don't think I should _use_ "only" because doing this might change the emphasis (with "only" I would naturally understand the emphasis as "only", with "specially" I'd understanding it as "optimistic natures" - at least, this is how it sounds in Portuguese), and, besides, Mauthner _could have used_ "nur die optimistischen Naturen" or "die optimistischen Naturen allein", so why decide for him which word is the best word?


My reading of


Löwenfrau said:


> gerade in optimistischen Naturen


is that, contrary to possibly widespread belief, mysticism is attractive to the optimistic rather than the pessimistic. Perhaps _*notably* the more optimistic._


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## wandle

> Sie würde vielleicht lehren, daß auf jede Periode gesteigerten Wissenshochmuts eine Periode des Wissenschaftsbankerotts und der Verzweiflung folgte, die sich gerade in optimistischen Naturen zur Mystik rettete.


So far, every comment seems to have taken optimism in a positive sense, seeing it presumably as a psychologically beneficial state.
When contrasted with a scientific outlook, however, it often has, at least in English, a negative sense: that of wishful thinking.

Perhaps Mauthner intends to say, or imply,  that it is precisely those with a tendency to wishful thinking who take refuge in mysticism. I do not know whether this would correspond with his attitude to mysticism or not. The earlier part of the sentence seems to be setting up an antithesis which strikes me as improbably schematic: and perhaps is itself an example of 'optimism' in the sense of preference for an emotionally appealing analysis.


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## Hutschi

You are right. In science this is not always positive. (In the German language, too.)
It has also a context of wishful thinking.
If we see the parallel axiom, there was wishful thinking to derive it from the other axioms for more than 1000 years.
In this case the optimism was positive. 
It was wishful thinking that science was almost complete at the end of the 19th century.


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