# EN: Je ne peux ni manger, ni dormir, ni me concentrer



## floralies

Bonjour

Je souhaite traduire: Je n'arrive pas à manger ni à dormir...ni à ....

Est-ce que je peux dire:

I can't eat, neither sleep

or I can't eat, nor sleep

Ps j'ai lu les posts sur le sujet mais je ne suis pas sûre de moi malgré tout..

Merci de vos conseils


----------



## 42n0rris

Je dirais "I can't eat *or* sleep." Ça marche mieux à mon avis.


----------



## Santana2002

or: _I can neither eat nor sleep._


----------



## floralies

Merci des réponses
Et comme j'ai écrit si il y a un 3 ième ni..

Je ne peux ne manger, ni dormir, ni me concentrer...

Comment cela fonctionne"neither..?"

I can neither sleep, neither eat, nor concentrate?

Je ne sais pas.

Merci


----------



## Santana2002

"_I can neither eat, sleep, nor concentrate_"


----------



## LivingTree

Someone speaking in the ordinary way would likely say something like: "I haven't been able to eat or sleep".

We really just don't use "neither/nor" a whole lot in ordinary speech. "I can neither eat nor sleep" sounds like something out of a Jane Austen (19th century) novel. 

But it works only for two alternatives: neither X nor Y (same as for "either X or Y"). For three, it has to be "I can't eat, sleep or concentrate". It can't be used for more than two things.

If you did want to write a work of great literature, you could say: "I cannot eat; neither can I sleep" ... "I cannot eat, nor can I sleep". But anyone reading it would assume you had travelled in time from a previous century.


----------



## Santana2002

I disagree that 'neither/nor' is not used in ordinary speech, I personally would have no hesitation using the formulation I suggested above (n°5)

The syntax for several 'neither/nor' elements is the same as it would be for an 'and' statement :

"I can eat*,* sleep *and *concentrate" -> "I can neither eat*,* sleep, *nor* concentrate."


----------



## floralies

Thx Santana & Livingtree

Okay, je ne savais pas que cela faisait voyager dans le temps comme ça....
Je vais donc éviter... de peur de paraître précieuse...

Merci des explications


----------



## LivingTree

And just a note for the record about neither/nor:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/NOR
_(used to join alternatives, the first of which is preceded by neither)_ and not

And we all know there can be only _two_ alternatives!

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/neither
*Usage Note: * According to the traditional rule, _neither_ is used only to mean "not one or the other of two."

I'm a traditionalist. On this.


----------



## Martyn94

Santana2002 said:


> I disagree that 'neither/nor' is not used in ordinary speech, I personally would have no hesitation using the formulation I suggested above (n°5)
> 
> The syntax for several 'neither/nor' elements is the same as it would be for an 'and' statement :
> 
> "I can eat*,* sleep *and *concentrate" -> "I can neither eat*,* sleep, *nor* concentrate."



You evidently keep higher standards in your speech than I do.

 It all depends on the tone of the passage as a whole. But unless it requires something distinctly formal, I would very much follow 42nOrris: "I can't eat, or sleep, or concentrate". The "or" before "sleep" is not necessary grammatically, but that is how you would say it.


----------



## Santana2002

I'm really surprised that you find 'my' expression so unusual, I do not consider myself a pedant, nor particularly 'wordy', and sincerely I would definitely use that phrase very readily and in any circumstance, formal, informal, family, friends ...


----------



## 42n0rris

You could also just repeat yourself: "I can't eat, can't sleep, can't concentrate...(what am I going to do?!)" This gives a sense of desperation to what you are saying/the repetition reinforces it.

I also agree, use of neither/nor in speech to me sounds quite formal. No offense Santana.


----------



## floralies

Thank you to all of you
" This gives a sense of desperation to what you are saying/the repetition reinforces it." I like this idea


----------



## Wordsmyth

floralies said:


> Okay, je ne savais pas que cela faisait voyager dans le temps comme ça....
> Je vais donc éviter... de peur de paraître précieuse...


 Certains ne l'utilisent pas, peut-être, mais ce serait dommage d'éviter un vocabulaire parfaitement courant (sauf peut-être au Canada ). Ce n'est ni précieux, ni du 19ème siècle.

I can't let Santana stand alone (against the slings and arrows of Sherman, Custer, Living Tree and others). I, also, would use _neither/nor_ and _not/nor_ 'very readily and in any circumstance, formal, informal, family, friends ...' — and I know many others who do, and they are _neither_ time-travellers _nor_ Jane Austen!

I do agree with Living Tree, however, that _neither _can refer only to two. "Neither of the brothers has red hair" tells you that there are only two brothers. For more than two, it would be "None of ...". I can't imagine anyone saying "Neither of the three brothers has red hair". So for two things, you can have "_neither_ X _nor _Y", but for three it becomes "_not_ X, _nor_ Y, _nor_ Z" (commas optional, but preferred especially when X,Y,Z are phrases). Alternative common usage is "not X or Y", "not X or Y or Z" (or "not X,Y or Z").

Ws


----------



## Santana2002

Oh don't worry about me standing alone in the face of more comprehensive knowledge than mine!  It's what I like about this forum: imrpoving my own understanding and 
knowledge of both my mother tongue and French!

Henceforth I'll only use neither/nor where there are two and only two objects concerned


----------



## LivingTree

And of course I just have to say ... !

In NA, "nor" is very uncommon outside of the neither/nor situation. For example, while it might be correct for a conversation to go like this:

I would never go to London.
- Nor would I.

in North America, it would go:

I would never go to London.
- Neither would I.

Nobody here would ever say "not X, nor Y, nor Z". Ever. But I know Brits say things like that. I'm hard pressed to think of an example, but I would say:

I will not eat shrimp, lobster or snails.

I can't even come up with a construction where _anybody _would say "not X, nor Y, nor Z".

I will eat not shirmp, nor lobster, nor snails. 

(Don't quote me!)

Hmm. I would never go to London, nor would I go to Paris, nor would I go to New York.

Frankly, in ordinary speech, all but the most pedantic among us break the rule of two:

I would never go to either London, Paris or New York.


----------



## Wordsmyth

LivingTree said:


> _ [...]_ Nobody here would ever say "not X, nor Y, nor Z". Ever. But I know Brits say things like that._ [...]_


 ... and speakers of quite a few other variants of English, no doubt. There's a tendency to polarise English usage around AmE and BrE, but let's not forget that native English speakers elsewhere outnumber the populations of the USA, Canada and the UK put together. 





LivingTree said:


> _ [...] _I can't even come up with a construction where _anybody _would say "not X, nor Y, nor Z".
> I will eat not shirmp, nor lobster, nor snails. _ [...]_


 OK, I should have been more precise and written "not [...] X, nor [...] Y, nor [...] Z". Lots of people would say "I will not eat shrimp, nor lobster, nor snails". (They probably wouldn't eat shirmp either ). 





LivingTree said:


> Hmm. I would never go to London, nor would I go to Paris, nor would I go to New York.
> Frankly, in ordinary speech, all but the most pedantic among us break the rule of two:
> I would never go to either London, Paris or New York.


 Hmm. There are many among us, pedantic or not, who would find that first sentence excessively heavy, and would prefer "I would never go to London, nor Paris, nor New York". 

As for the second example, why complicate it with the "either", which is intrusive, redundant and incorrect (as you've gone to great pains to show in your posts above)? What's wrong with "I would never go to London, Paris or New York"?

Ws


----------



## LivingTree

Wordsmyth said:


> There's a tendency to polarise English usage around AmE and BrE, but  let's not forget that native English speakers elsewhere outnumber the  populations of the USA, Canada and the UK put together.
> ... Hmm. There are many among us, pedantic or not, who would find that first sentence excessively heavy, and would prefer "I would never go to London, nor Paris, nor New York".


I don't speak AmE ... I speak Canadian English, which resembles USAmerican English in many ways, and differs in quite a few others. And yes, I'm reasonably familiar with other Englishes. I don't know whether a speaker of Indian or South African or Jamaican or even just New Zealandish English would say that in everyday speech, but I can tell you to an absolute certainty that no one apart from Lord Tubby of Fleet (who is sadly back moving among us) would _ever_ say that in Canada. And I very much doubt that he would.

In fact, I don't even think "I would never go to London, nor Paris, nor New York" is correct English! Seriously, I think that is just wrong. The "nor" has to have its preceding negative thingy, and "never" isn't it, because it relates to the verb, not to London. In the sentence of mine you disliked, the connection is correct: "I would never go to London, nor would I go to Paris, nor would I go to New York." I find the "nor"s in your sentence just pretentious, and grammatically incorrect to boot. 

But of course that sentence of mine is heavy, and that's why people break the rule of two in everyday speech and say "I would never go to either London or Paris or New York".



Wordsmyth said:


> As for the second example, why complicate it with the "either", which is intrusive, redundant and incorrect (as you've gone to great pains to show in your posts above)? What's wrong with "I would never go to London, Paris or New York"?


If it were spoken in response to something as a kind of emphasis or way to refute an implied assumption of one or the other:

Are you going to London this year, or Paris?
- I would never to go either London or Paris.
Are you a fish or a fowl?
Uh oh. ... - I am neither fish nor fowl.

And there is what might be the exception -- with "to be":

 I am neither British nor USAmerican. 
But: I would not go to either Britain or the US.
And never, and I mean never, talking like an ordinary person: I would go to neither Britain nor the US.


PS -- I find the thread has been moved, and I'm outa here now!

.


----------



## realestate

the most famous neither/nor that I can think of includes more than two alternatives:

"_Neither snow nor rain nor heat nor gloom of night stays these couriers from the swift completion of their appointed rounds._"

Which is the inscription above the main post office (the Farley building) in Manhattan.


----------



## Wordsmyth

LivingTree said:


> I don't speak AmE ... I speak Canadian English, which resembles USAmerican English in many ways, and differs in quite a few others. _[...]_





LivingTree said:


> _[...]_ And never, and I mean never, talking like an ordinary person: I would go to neither Britain nor the US.


Sorry, I wasn't for one minute suggesting you spoke AmE — and in stressing the importance of recognising 'other' variants than the two most quoted, I would of course include CanE in its own right. I grouped USA, Canada and UK in this instance only because in post #16 you referred to "North America". 

The only reason at all that I'm insisting on recognising such differences (before a Mod thinks this is going OT!) is that we're in the French-English forum here, trying to help native French speakers in translating "*ni manger, ni dormir, ni me concentrer*" — and they can be misled (as floralies appears to have been in post #8) if one regional practice is represented (or another decried) by such terms as "talking like an ordinary person" and "anyone reading it would assume you had travelled in time from a previous century". Whilst that may be true in CanE, it isn't true for English in general, and it's important that readers get a balanced view. 


LivingTree said:


> _[...]_ In fact, I don't even think "I would never go to London, nor Paris, nor New York" is correct English! Seriously, I think that is just wrong. The "nor" has to have its preceding negative thingy, and "never" isn't it, because it relates to the verb, not to London. In the sentence of mine you disliked, the connection is correct: "I would never go to London, nor would I go to Paris, nor would I go to New York." I find the "nor"s in your sentence just pretentious, and grammatically incorrect to boot.  _[...]_


 OK, on the basis of traditional textbook grammar, I'll have to give you that one. However, it's not uncommon usage (at least in some parts of the world), and there is a school of grammatical thought that considers it an acceptable contraction, with the missing words being implicit — in the same way that "I told him to stop and _[to] _think" and "I said _[that] _I was thirsty and _[that I] _wanted a cool beer" are accepted without the bracketed words. Similarly "I would never go to London, nor _[would I go to]_ Paris, nor _[would I go to]_ New York."

So I'll trade you my "pretentious and grammatically incorrect" _nor_ against your pretentious and grammatically incorrect _either_.


realestate said:


> the most famous neither/nor that I can think of includes more than two alternatives:
> "_Neither snow nor rain nor heat nor gloom of night stays these couriers from the swift completion of their appointed rounds._"
> Which is the inscription above the main post office (the Farley building) in Manhattan.


 Makes me think of the most famous quotes from a certain well-known footballer (that's soccer): his English isn't very good either.

Ws


----------



## LivingTree

I'm going to score an own goal here. (And my "either" was not pretentious; it was illiterate!)

An athlete, but not a footballer, although from the story one might have assumed he was. Oops; she.

I don't suppose Tubby owned that Telegraph too?

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1120716/jsp/calcutta/story_15732305.jsp
“I want to meet chief minister Mamata Banerjee and sports minister Madan  Mitra 
but cannot because the bail order prevents me from leaving North  24-Parganas. 
*I cannot enter Calcutta, nor can I visit my house in  Purulia,” said Pinki.*


P.S. -- I'll throw in Lady Gaga too, and you'll have to find the youtube yourself:

"i cannot imagine my life without you nor can i imagine my future without you"

.


----------



## Language Hound

Wordsmyth said:


> Makes me think of the most famous quotes from a certain well-known footballer (that's soccer): his English isn't very good either.
> 
> Ws



Just in case you're thinking that the inscription above the main post office in Manhattan ("_Neither snow nor rain nor heat nor gloom of night stays these couriers from the swift completion of their appointed rounds._") was penned by an American, I wanted to point out that, to quote Wikipedia, "It derives from a quote from Herodotus' _Histories_, referring to the courier service of the ancient Persian Empire" and was translated by Alfred Denis Godley, a classical scholar and, from 1910 to 1920, Public Orator at the University of Oxford.


----------



## floralies

Je vous lis et c'est vrai que l'on a tendance, en tant que français, à minimiser le fait qu'il y ait tant d'anglais différents...

L'anglais, simple? Que nenni! (expression médiévale pour le coup)

Alors pour faire un consensus "Worldenglish", je crois qu'il est bien de dire: "I can't eat, I can't sleep, or concentrate"

Au plaisir d'avoir lu vos précieuses précisions

Merci


----------



## jann

floralies said:


> "I can't eat, I can't sleep, or concentrate"


Ce n'est pas pour faire la difficile, mais ce n'est surtout pas cette option que je choisirais... et je ne crois pas qu'on l'ait suggérée plus haut.   Cette phrase manque de structure parallèle.



_I can't eat, sleep, or concentrate._  = une simple liste, constat neutre, tout à fait correct et courant 
_I can't eat, (I) can't sleep, (and I) can't concentrate. _= répétition stylistique pour souligner le problème, sa frustration 
_I can neither eat, (nor) sleep, nor concentrate_ = constat neutre, mais certains vous reprocheront _neither...nor_ dans une liste avec 3 éléments (en revanche, pas de souci avec seulement 2 éléments).  En fonction du locuteur, _neither_..._nor_ peut sembler trop soutenu pour être utilisé à l'oral dans la lanque quotidienne... mais pour d'autres anglophones, ça passe sans problème. 
etc.


----------

