# Appropriate forum for q about Provencal dialect



## Panpan

Hi all, and especially the mods;

I have chcked the rules, and searched on 'dialects' in this forum, so apologies if I have missed the answer.

Which is the appropriate forum to ask questions about Provencal dialect?  Can I use the French-English forum (where I am more likely to find someone who knows some Provencal), or do I have to stick to the 'Other languages' forum?

I am trying to translate a verse from Provencal dialect into French and English.  Provencal may be considered a French dialect (in structure and word origins), although it is largely mutually incomprehensible with French.  It was and (I am told) still is spoken by a now very small number of mostly very elderly people in South East France.

I would be grateful for a ruling, as I may later also have some questions about the Jersey-French (Chanel Islands) patois, and the Mauritius patois.

Many thanks

Panpan


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## 94kittycat

If you are translating something from French to English or vice versa, the French-English forum would probably be the place to go!


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## Bienvenidos

Panpan, I've seen your thread in OL and I think that it would be better if you moved it to the French forum, just because there they might be able to help you more. I visit OL almost once every second  and unfortunately, although I would love to help you, I know nothing about that language (Occitan, is it?). My only concern about moving it to the French forum is that it may get swamped by the other translation  posts, meaning it would get lost with them, which would be the same situation that it is in in OL all over again. This is the type of specialized question that the French only forum would be able to take on, if everything was in French, though, although I think this could be a slight exception to the rule. I'm only suggesting French only because those amazingly insightful French grammar scholars that frequent the FO forum probably know something about this language/dialect.

 
So that's my suggestion.


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## xarruc

Provençal is a dialect of Occitan, not of French.

Occitan is mutually comprehensible with Catalan and you may get a good reply in that forum, better perhaps than in the French forum, as it is not mutually comprehensible with French.

However I think that using the Other Languages forum and starting the thread title "Occitan - " would yield the best results as I would not search a thread in Occitan in either Catalan or French, because Occitan threads shouldn't be split between Catalan and French and Other Languages forums, and because Occitan is neither French nor Catalan.


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## Agnès E.

Provençal is quite different from Occitan, although their share the same roots from langue d'Oc. It is a whole language in itself. Here are some dictionaries that could be helpful to you.
It is similarly a fully different language from French.
I would therefore recommend you to use our Other Languages forum, not forgetting to start your thread titles with "provençal".


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## Etcetera

Calling Provencal, Occitan, Piedmontese and other languages "dialects" may offend their speakers.
When I asked a moderator the same question about Piedmontese, they advised me to post my thread in the Italian-English Forum. But now, as I know more about Piedmontese, I would certainly place my thread in the Other Languages forum.


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## xarruc

> Provençal is quite different from Occitan, although their share the same roots from langue d'Oc. It is a whole language in itself.


 
I am no expert, but accoding to Wikipedia:- 
 



> “In France, Italy and Spain, Occitan or Langue d'oc is the general name given to all dialects of the language. Provençal used to be a synonym of Occitan but since the second half of the 20th Century, it has been used mainly to refer to the dialect of Occitan spoken in Provence.[1]
> In the English-speaking world, "Provençal" is often used to refer to all dialects of Occitan as well as to medieval versions of it also known as Langue d'oc.”


Occitan language
 
 



> “Provençal (Provençau) is one of several dialects of Occitan spoken by a minority of people in southern France and other areas of France and Italy.
> In the English-speaking world, "Provençal" is often used to refer to all dialects of Occitan, but actually refers specifically to the dialect spoken in the former province of Provence as well as south of Dauphiné and the Nîmes region in Languedoc and the upper valleys of Piedmont, Italy (Val Maira, Val Varacha, Val d'Estura, Entraigas, Limon, Vinai, Pignerol, Sestriera).
> "Provençal" is also the customary name given to the older version of the langue d'oc used by the troubadours of medieval literature, corresponding to Old French or langue d'oil of the northern areas of France.”


Provençal
 
 
There are two schools of written Occitan – one much similar to catalan (“classic norm”) and one similar to French (“Mistralian norm”). Provençal tends to use the latter, and the other dialects the former, although as separate ortographies they represent the same sounds.


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## chics

xarruc said:


> I am no expert, but accoding to Wikipedia:-
> “In France, Italy and Spain, Occitan or Langue d'Oc is the general name given to all dialects of the language. ..."


 
Sorry, but in Spain we never use "Provençal" neither "Occitan/Langue d'Oc" for any dialect, we know that it's a langue. Moreover, we have no word (different from "dialect") to give to all dialects in general.

I'd say the same happens in Italy.

However, in France they do have a word to say all dialects in general, but it is "patois". They know that "Provençal" exists and it's a langue, different from another langue called "Occitan".


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## Panpan

Wow, thanks a lot all of you, even if I'm still not completely sure which forum to use, that has at least given me some fantastic leads to go away and do some more research on my own.  I will certainly be back when I get stuck with it.

Thanks again

Panpan


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