# "The" as part of proper nouns of places, pop groups, etc.



## piotr1980

By the way , do we always add THE when the country's first letter is ''U''

The UK, The US, The Ukraine,............?

Moderator note: the first six posts in this thread have been split from a thread on a completely unrelated topic--
*this country is of my interest*


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## Joelline

Good question, piotr!  I know we say, "the Philippines" and "the Netherlands" as well, so your rule won't hold.  But I don't know why some countries take "the" and others do not.  I also know that, recently, it is becoming more and more common to speak of "Ukraine" without "the"; yet, I believe the majority of Americans would still use "the Ukraine."


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## AWordLover

Hi,

I don't know what the rule is, but I would *not* say *the* Uganda.
I would just talk about Uganda.

EDIT: The fact that we say the Philippines, has no impact on a rule that says we say "the" before countries with names starting with "U". It would just prove that the rule is not comprehensive.


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## Trisia

This is by no means anything but a thought, but could it possibly mean we usually say "the" before a country name that either has a plural form  (ends in -s)or indicates a conglomerate? The United States, The United Kingdom, The Netherlands and so on.


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## Forero

My understanding is that we say _the_ Ukraine because of the literal meaning "the boundary region", or something like that.  Now that Ukraine is on its own but still has the same name, the Ukrainian government prefers that we drop the _the_.  The word _the_ does not exist in Ukrainian, but the point is to not consider the country a mere boundary of something else.


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## Blumengarten

The reason we say "the" before names of countries such as the United States, the United Kingdom, the United Arab Emirates, and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, is not that  these names begin with the letter U, but that the names refer to the type of government.  That is why we say the Republic of Korea, or the People's Republic of China.

We don't use "the" before Great Britain because "great" does not refer to its type of government, but that it encompasses all of the British Isles.

The reason we use "the" before Netherlands is that "nether" is a description of the land itself (as evident in another term we use for that country, "the Lowlands.)  I hadn't known what Ukraine meant, but as Forero said, since it's a litteral translation of the term "the boundary region," that would be why it is common to say "the Ukraine."  (I still don't understand why the Ukrainians would get upset about us using "the" before the name of their country!)

I had never thought about why we use "the" before Phillipines, but it must be because it's a plural noun (referring to all the islands in the Phillipines; Indonesia is another country of islands, but that name isn't pluralized.)


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## rodoke

My understanding is that you use "the" not because the country starts with "U" but because of at least one of the following:

The name is/starts with a common noun: The United Kingdom, The Republic of China (a.k.a and cf. Taiwan).
The name is pluralized: The United States, The Philippines, The Bahamas
The country shares a name with a geographical feature: The Sudan, The Ukraine, The Netherlands, The Democratic Republic of The Congo (a.k.a Zaire).


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## Forero

rodoke said:


> My understanding is that you use "the" not because the country starts with "U" but because of at least one of the following:
> 
> The name is/starts with a common noun: The United Kingdom, The Republic of China (a.k.a and cf. Taiwan).
> The name is pluralized: The United States, The Philippines, The Bahamas
> The country shares a name with a geographical feature: The Sudan, The Ukraine, The Netherlands, The Democratic Republic of The Congo (a.k.a Zaire).


 
That sounds right, if we haven't missed something.  I will also mention the distinction between a name that is "pluralized" and one that is merely a compound like "Trinidad and Tobago" or "Bosnia and Herzegovina".


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## panjandrum

*Zambia or The Zambia

Country names with "The"*

*articles before countries*

*the Ukraine / Ukraine*


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## liliput

Uganda and Uzbekistan (I hope that's spelt right).


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## Packard

There are five (5) boroughs to the city of New York:

1.  Manhattan
2.  Queens
3.  Brooklyn
4.  Staten Island
5.  *The* Bronx

It would appear to be entirely arbitrary.  I think you just have to learn each one individually.  No Rules.


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## lizzeymac

Perhaps the fact that the "The Bronx" is an evolved name, rather than a decreed name may have something to do with it?  
The other boroughs were named by Royal decrees and land grants or later local governments.  The name of the borough, & The Bronx River,  has evolved from of the settler Jonas Bronck, who held the first land grant to The Bronx.


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## GreenWhiteBlue

The Bronx, like The Gambia, is a name based on a river. It is common to use articles with the names of rivers, such as "the Nile" or "the Mekong". It is also common to use the same construction when referring to the area (such as The Bronx) that is near the river. For example, it would not be odd to hear someone saying "Brazil has set aside land in the Amazon for use as a national park".

The Bronx River, by the way, is named for Jonas Bronck. The form "Bronx" is a later phonetic spelling of the possessive "Bronck's", as in "Bronck's River".


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## Packard

GreenWhiteBlue said:


> The Bronx, like The Gambia, is a name based on a river. It is common to use articles with the names of rivers, such as "the Nile" or "the Mekong". It is also common to use the same construction when referring to the area (such as The Bronx) that is near the river. For example, it would not be odd to here someone saying "Brazil has set aside land in the Amazon for use as a national park".
> 
> The Bronx River, by the way, is named for Jonas Bronck. The form "Bronx" is a later phonetic spelling of the possessive "Bronck's", as in "Bronck's River".


 

Without knowing the entire history of an area, this would still appear to be entirely arbitrary.  My point was that there are no rules that can be used to guide you; you have to look it up in order to know.


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## connect

Does anyone know why we use `the` with names of rivers, buildings, bridges etc but not with mountains, lakes etc?

The river Nile.
Mount Fuji.


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## Forero

Welcome to the forum, connect.

Interesting question.  I don't know the answer, but there are exceptions: the Temple Mount, the Great Salt Lake.  Why isn't it "Stratford-on-the-Avon" or "Newcastle-upon-the-Tyne"?  The Cam Bridge?  Are Buckingham Palace and Lewes Castle not buildings?

Are the mountains, lakes, etc., personified?  We don't (usually) use "the" with most people's names.


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## Ms Missy

Interesting question indeed!  I've never really thought of it in terms of rivers and lakes, but have often wondered why _The_ is placed in front of _Reverend _as part of the name. (No disrespect intended).


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## GreenWhiteBlue

Ms Missy said:


> I've never really thought of it in terms of rivers and lakes, but have often wondered why _The_ is placed in front of _Reverend _as part of the name.


It isn't.  It is, however, put _before_ the name of a member of the clergy in the same way that "the Honorable" or "the Right Honorable" is put before the name of the holders of certain public offices.

I will also note that there are many bridges which do not get articles -- London Bridge being the most well known example.

It may also be noted that oceans and seas also get definite articles.


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## Ms Missy

Thanks, GreenWhiteBlue!  I also just remembered that 'the' _is_ used with mountains. (The Sierra Nevadas, The Rocky Mountains, The Appalachians, etc).  

PS.  Even though I'm a native English speaker, I really find this English Only thread very enlightening as far as calling attention to various nuances that I've always taken for granted or never given a second thought!


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## connect

Ms Missy said:


> Thanks, GreenWhiteBlue!  I also just remembered that 'the' _is_ used with mountains. (The Sierra Nevadas, The Rocky Mountains, The Appalachians, etc).
> 
> PS.  Even though I'm a native English speaker, I really find this English Only thread very enlightening as far as calling attention to various nuances that I've always taken for granted or never given a second thought!



Yes, it seems that we use `the` for mountain ranges but not for individual mountains.


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## Forero

connect said:


> Yes, it seems that we use `the` for mountain ranges but not for individual mountains.


Don't forget the Temple Mount (and the Mount of Olives).  I agree that there is a preponderance of mount(ain)s that don't take "the".

I can't think of any mountain range that doesn't take "the".

Is Madison Square Garden a building or what?


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## GreenWhiteBlue

Forero said:


> Is Madison Square Garden a building or what?


Madison Square Garden is neither a garden, nor at Madison Square. It is instead a sports arena, which is another type of structure that does not get an article: for example, it is "Yankee Stadium", not "the Yankee Stadium."


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## britneyM

I would like to know the function of 'the.'
Most proper nouns do not have 'the' as a part of their names as follows.
p1: United States of America
p2: Tower of London
Of course they are used together with 'the' when used in a sentence but their names themselves do not have 'the.'

But some proper nouns have 'the' as a part of their names as follows.
p3: The Beatles
p4: The New York Times
Why do you think they have 'the' as a part of their names or what feeling or impression does this kind of 'the' give to you?


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## Packard

I think it is just a convention.

In New York you have the five boroughs (boros):

Queens County
Kings County (Brooklyn)
Manhattan
Staten Island
The Bronx

I've never heard any convincing arguement that explained "The Bronx". It is just a convention.

There might be some original justification for "The United States Of America" but it is now just a convention.


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## Porteño

britneyM said:


> I would like to know the function of 'the.'
> Most proper nouns do not have 'the' as a part of their names as follows.
> p1: United States of America
> p2: Tower of London
> Of course they are used together with 'the' when used in a sentence but their names themselves do not have 'the.'
> 
> But some proper nouns have 'the' as a part of their names as follows.
> p3: The Beatles
> p4: The New York Times
> Why do you think they have 'the' as a part of their names or what feeling or impression does this kind of 'the' give to you?


 
I have never seen the Tower of London without the 'the'. It's correct name carries 'the'. However, Tower Bridge does not because Tower is an adjective. Similarly I can not imagine the United States without 'the' in any circumastances except perhaps the name plate at the UN.


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## kelt

Packard said:


> I think it is just a convention.
> 
> In New York you have the five boroughs (boros):
> 
> Queens County
> Kings County (Brooklyn)
> Manhattan
> Staten Island
> The Bronx
> 
> I've never heard any convincing arguement that explained "The Bronx". It is just a convention.



The borough used to be called the Broncks' to commemorate some highly positioned family of the time. That's what I heard at least.

As for the United States, some nouns inherently require the definite article in front of them when put in a sentence, but are not present in lists, maps etc. The sole exception is The Hague, because the article has been simply copied off from Dutch, where it is Den Haag, if I am not mistaken.
Another thing is The New York Times, where I suppose the article being an inseparable part of the name itself - therefore it should be present in every situation.


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## Du_sud

Porteño said:


> I have never seen the Tower of London without the 'the'. It's correct name carries 'the'. However, Tower Bridge does not because Tower is an adjective. *Similarly I can not imagine the United States without 'the' in any circumastances except perhaps the name plate at the UN*.


 
I think I've already seen "Made in U.S.A." (without the "the") quite often in products made in the USA...


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## kelt

Du_sud said:


> I think I've already seen "Made in U.S.A." (without the "the") quite often in products made in the USA...



As I understand this phenomenon, it's like in newspaper headlines. They also omit articles.
Lists, headlines, labels on maps, they all need to be short and sort of striking.


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## ewie

Re: The Beatles. If someone could be bothered to do a bit of research, Britney, they might find that The Beatles started the trend of naming pop groups _The + [random noun, usually plural]_, where previously it would have been _Person's Name + Noun _(e.g. Bill Hailey and the Comets, Harold Melvin and the Blue Notes, etc.) There are *way* too many _The Beatles_-style pop groups to name ~ The Kinks, The Animals, The Flying Lizards are the first 3 that come to mind ~ so I'll just mention the name of one of my favourite bands: _The The_ ~ the chap in charge of that took the trend to a sort of 'logical conclusion'.
_I'm not sure if any of this is on-topic or not_


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## bibliolept

ewie said:


> There are *way* too many _The Beatles_-style pop groups to name ~ The Kinks, The Animals, The Flying Lizards are the first 3 that come to mind ~ so I'll just mention the name of one of my favourite bands: _The The_ ~ the chap in charge of that took the trend to a sort of 'logical conclusion'.
> _I'm not sure if any of this is on-topic or not_



I'll pretend it is. Another group who took the "the" naming scheme to a new level were, of course, The Who.


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## Broccolicious

And wasn't there a group called "The The"? Those crazy kids.

And let's not forget the United Kingdom, which always has the 'the' - although I'm not sure what happens with 'we're based in the UK / we're UK-based'.


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## britneyM

Hello Packard, Porteño, kelt, Du_sud, ewie, bibliolept, Broccolicious

Thank you very much for your detailed replies.
They gave me a lot of information and keys to the world of 'the.'
I unerstand very, very well.

May I ask a little more?

Let me call a proper noun that doesn't have 'the' as a part of its name 'pwot,' which means 'proper noun without the,' and a proper noun that have 'the' as a part of its name 'pwt,' which means 'proper noun with the.' The New York Times and The Beatles are pwts. I think there are many pwts although I don't know them. 

What feeling or impression do pwts give to you compared to pwots?
I think you might not have any special feeling or impression to see The New York Times and The Beatles because they are too famous and familiar. They might be part of your life and you might feel them like the air.

But please remember the first time you saw the pwt on the newspaper or on the big poster. What did you feel or imagin or think of to see the 'The' in the pwt? 

Any short comment is OK. I think feeling or impression is different from person to person. I would really like to have as many and much comment as possible. I'm sure your comments will give me the best and final key to understand 'the' in pwt.

Thank you.


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## anothersmith

Hi, Britney.  "The" is so common in the name of English and American Rock bands that I take it for granted.  If, anything, I'm mildly surprised to come across the name of a band that does not include "the" -- such as Ramones or Talking Heads.


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## AntonyM

I must jump in to this amusing conversation. Another implication of "The" before a name is of something special, perhaps unique. There are many, perhaps millions, of beatles, for example, but only one THE Beatles.

That is why "The Who" is funny the first time you hear it.

Similarly, you might say or write "the United States" in a phrase or sentence, and it's quite ordinary. But in some circumstances, perhaps when feeling extra patriotic or trying to be very specific, you would say "The United States" with a strong emphasis on the word "The."

Saying or writing "These United States" would read or sound very close to THE United States. Again, with spoken emphasis on "these."

Best, Antony


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## Dimcl

AntonyM said:


> I must jump in to this amusing conversation.


 
As will I...

States, provinces, territories, counties, districts, buroughs, etc.  They are simply nouns meaning an area of some form of governmental jurisdiction.  The word "united" is simply the adjective describing them.  Why then, would you not use "the" ie:

states that become united = "the United States"
nations that become united = "the United Nations"
kingdoms that become united = "the United Kingdom"
daughters of the Confederacy that become united = "the United Daughters of the Confederacy"
churches that become united = "the United Church"

ad nauseum


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## ewie

Yes, I'll echo what Another said above, that occasionally one comes across a proper noun which _doesn't_ use a 'the' when you'd expect it to, to mark it out as the *one and only or most supremely wonderful example of that thing* (e.g. not _some Ramones_ but _The Band That Billy, Deedee and Titch Ramone Formed*_) ~ and it's _those_ which seem remarkable.

Then again, there are some place names which generally use a 'the' ... and you've no idea _why_ they do that. _The Gambia_ ? ~ how many Gambias are there?

Etc.

_*Sorry, I've forgotten those Ramone chaps' names._


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## Broccolicious

ewie said:


> Then again, there are some place names which generally use a 'the' ... and you've no idea _why_ they do that. _The Gambia_ ? ~ how many Gambias are there?
> 
> Is that something to do with colonialism, I wonder? Gambia, Ukraine - it's no longer PC to include the 'The' with these place names (although the BBC still refers to The Gambia), and I think I've always assumed that 'Gambia' was the original name before Britain colonised it.
> 
> I'll shut up before my ignorance of history becomes any more painfully obvious.


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## ewie

Broccolicious said:


> I'll shut up before my ignorance of history becomes any more painfully obvious.


I must've missed the history lesson that dealt with the UK's colonization of Ukraine, Brocco _[just kidding]_


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## Broccolicious

ewie said:


> I must've missed the history lesson that dealt with the UK's colonization of Ukraine, Brocco _[just kidding]_


 

Tch - it was just 'Raine' before we got there.


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## britneyM

Hello anothersmith, AntonyM, Dimcl, ewie, Broccolicious

Thank you very much for your clear, hot, and amusing replies.
I understand very well.

Thank you.


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## Brioche

ewie said:


> Re: The Beatles. If someone could be bothered to do a bit of research, Britney, they might find that The Beatles started the trend of naming pop groups _The + [random noun, usually plural]_, where previously it would have been _Person's Name + Noun _(e.g. Bill Hailey and the Comets, Harold Melvin and the Blue Notes, etc.) There are *way* too many _The Beatles_-style pop groups to name ~ The Kinks, The Animals, The Flying Lizards are the first 3 that come to mind ~ so I'll just mention the name of one of my favourite bands: _The The_ ~ the chap in charge of that took the trend to a sort of 'logical conclusion'.
> _I'm not sure if any of this is on-topic or not_



There were groups called "_The Somethings_" before The Beatles.

Back in the 50s there were The Platters, The Phantoms, The Stargazers, The Weavers and The Orioles - among others.


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## Brioche

Broccolicious said:


> ewie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then again, there are some place names which generally use a 'the' ... and you've no idea _why_ they do that. _The Gambia_ ? ~ how many Gambias are there?
> 
> Is that something to do with colonialism, I wonder? Gambia, Ukraine - it's no longer PC to include the 'The' with these place names (although the BBC still refers to The Gambia), and I think I've always assumed that 'Gambia' was the original name before Britain colonised it.
> 
> I'll shut up before my ignorance of history becomes any more painfully obvious.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The full name of the country is _The Republic of the Gambia, _and its government website shortens it to_ The Gambia.
> 
> _
Click to expand...


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## Du_sud

Hi there!
From what I've heard, the article _the_ is used in The Gambia as the country was named after the river that crosses it, the Gambia River. As names of rivers in English take the article, it was then kept in the name of the country as well.


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## liliput

AntonyM said:


> I must jump in to this amusing conversation. Another implication of "The" before a name is of something special, perhaps unique. There are many, perhaps millions, of beatles, for example, but only one THE Beatles.
> 
> That is why "The Who" is funny the first time you hear it.
> 
> Similarly, you might say or write "the United States" in a phrase or sentence, and it's quite ordinary. But in some circumstances, perhaps when feeling extra patriotic or trying to be very specific, you would say "The United States" with a strong emphasis on the word "The."
> 
> Saying or writing "These United States" would read or sound very close to THE United States. Again, with spoken emphasis on "these."
> 
> Best, Antony


 
Whilst there are certainly many millions of beetles I don't think you'll find many beatles other than The Beatles - the spelling is unique.


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## liliput

United States of America could potentially refer to any given number of states within the U.S.A. or indeed any set of united states within the Americas. Therefore we refer to *the* U.S.A., *the* country as *the* United States of America.
Similarly the United Kingdom (of Great Britain and Northern Ireland) refers to a specific place and not any old united kingdom.
To put it another way, there is only one France, one China, etc. but there can be many United Kingdoms, States, Republics, etc. (Having said that one should take note that these countries too are known as The Republic of France and The People's Republic of China).
Some members have pointed out the usage of "the" with countries such as the Gambia and the Ukraine. It's my understanding that such names come about when the country coincides with a geographical region or feature.


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## Broccolicious

liliput said:


> Some members have pointed out the usage of "the" with countries such as the Gambia and the Ukraine. It's my understanding that such names come about when the country coincides with a geographical region or feature.


 
That's interesting, but I'm not sure I've understood it completely! Please could you explain more? I think I understand it better with Ukraine, which was a region (in the same way that we talk about 'the Lake District', or 'the West Country', maybe?) but then became a country. But I may be wrong there and I'm still not sure about T/the Gambia.

NB I nearly started on 'the Seychelles', 'the Bahamas', 'the Channel Islands' etc, but that's completely different, I think. (?)


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## berndf

Broccolicious said:


> NB I nearly started on 'the Seychelles', 'the Bahamas', 'the Channel Islands' etc, but that's completely different, I think. (?)


 
I would use "the" always with country or region names in plural. Otherwise I agree with Liliput's description.


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## Loob

britneyM said:


> May I ask a little more?
> 
> Let me call a proper noun that doesn't have 'the' as a part of its name 'pwot,' which means 'proper noun without the,' and a proper noun that have 'the' as a part of its name 'pwt,' which means 'proper noun with the.' The New York Times and The Beatles are pwts. I think there are many pwts although I don't know them.
> 
> What feeling or impression do pwts give to you compared to pwots?


 
Britney, would I be right in interpreting your "pwt" as names in which the definite article is seen as part of the name and therefore capitalised? 

If so, then my answer is that I don't have any special 'feeling' about capitalised "The"s; but I do nearly always _notice_ them.

I think they're becoming rarer - in other words, that previously-capitalised "The"s are now often seen without the capital. This Museum website, for example, talks about "the Beatles" (small t); here's the BBC writing "the Queen" instead of The Queen; and here's the (The?) Daily Telegraph referring to "the Times".


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## liliput

Broccolicious said:


> That's interesting, but I'm not sure I've understood it completely! Please could you explain more? I think I understand it better with Ukraine, which was a region (in the same way that we talk about 'the Lake District', or 'the West Country', maybe?) but then became a country. But I may be wrong there and I'm still not sure about T/the Gambia.
> 
> NB I nearly started on 'the Seychelles', 'the Bahamas', 'the Channel Islands' etc, but that's completely different, I think. (?)


 
Here is another similar threads (including links to more):
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=493587&highlight=the+UK+Ukraine

It's true that Ukraine is a country, and actually "the Ukraine" is not used as much now following the break up of the Soviet Union. An archipelago such as the Seychelles certainly counts as a geographical region/feature doesn't it?


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## Du_sud

Broccolicious wrote (#24):
"But I may be wrong there and I'm still not sure about T/the Gambia."


Didn't you read what I wrote (#21) about the Gambia (country) getting its name after the the Gambia River?


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## Matching Mole

Moderator Note:

I have taken the liberty of renaming the thread * "The" as part of proper nouns of places, pop groups, etc.* as the topic is _not_ "United States of America" (its former title).

Please keep the posts to the _general topic_  rather than dwelling on specific examples (e.g. The Gambia).


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## sdgraham

These things often are a matter of whatever style guide one wishes to follow. 

_*The Associated Press Stylebook*_, used by nearly all U.S. newspapers and journalism schools says:

The name of our country is the *United States*.
When used as an adjective, it's *U.S.* with periods, or full stops if you prefer and no intervening space.

As a side note, the registered corporate name of the world's largest news cooperative is _*The Associated Press*_, but it's the *AP* on second reference.


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## Damnjoe

I have one doubt. Is "the" capitalized when it is part of the name of a store? 

I'm going to buy milk at The Junction/the Junction.
Let's go shopping at The Bon-Ton/the Bon-Ton.

I'm guessing it's more like "The Beattles" and not like "the U.S.A." since "The" is part of the name. But I've seen it both ways.


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## DonnyB

Damnjoe said:


> I have one doubt. Is "the" capitalized when it is part of the name of a store?
> 
> I'm going to buy milk at The Junction/the Junction.
> Let's go shopping at The Bon-Ton/the Bon-Ton.
> 
> I'm guessing it's more like "The Beatles" and not like "the U.S.A." since "The" is part of the name. But I've seen it both ways.


I can't readily think of the name of any _stores _I'm familiar with, but there are quite a few pubs dotted around the UK called "The Junction", and I'd say the same principle applies: if it's a recognized, regularly-used part of their name, then you should capitalize it.  

If on the other hand the name is just "Junction" and you want to say "Lets go for lunch at the Junction" where you've basically added "the" yourself then it counts as just an ordinary word with no initial capital.


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