# Are we sick? (non-amoureux des mots, passez votre chemin)



## geve

Forgive me Forum, for I have sinned. 
I am severely addicted and do nothing to fight against it - on the contrary, I shamelessly indulge in my addiction every day more than the day before. Puns, play-on-words, rhymes or just sentences that sound nice: that's my drug. It's something with my brain - it's not normal. It gets an unnatural surge of pleasure when nice-sounding words are injected into it. I have some evidence that this disease is not uncommon in the WR neighbourhood, so I thought I should find understanding ears and possibly experienced addicts here.

Now to the serious question: what's wrong with me/us? What's so thrilling in combining words? Isn't language a tool to communicate? Isn't getting ideas across the main point of speaking or writing?
Watching the sunset, feeling the wind on one's skin, sipping a good glass of wine, listening to a buddhist chant, pacing in a garden filled with blossoming daylilies... these are all pleasures that our senses transmit to our brain. What strange process occurs with insubstantial formalized sounds? Is it just that it appeals to our intelligence, pleasing our ego? In other word, is it some sort of permanent state of _branlette intellectuelle_? Does it have to do with feelings, with spirituality, an irrational urge of our soul to something bigger than us? 

I'm clueless but not speechless as you can see. Any insight on that matter will be appreciated.


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## mytwolangs

Well that was deep 
Worry not about sinning here, I do it a lot and they let me stay. 

But yes you are right, as language learners, serious ones, the thought of language matters is never far from our minds. 

I tend to think of things like this - "what would that be in French?" That is what I am studying. 

Something gets into ones mind and sometimes over rules it. Language - healthy addiction, unlike one of my addictions - Je fume.


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## caballoschica

It's one of those to me that's a thing to make me feel somewhat intelligent.  I'm a chemistry major. I need to feel smart every once in awhile. Which is why I visit the English Only a lot.  Tennis is a stress reliever.  Horses relax me and get me away from EVERYTHING including tennis and the stress of competition and whatever other drama.  And of course school work.


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## ameana7

mytwolangs said:


> I tend to think of things like this - "what would that be in French?" That is what I am studying.
> 
> Something gets into ones mind and sometimes over rules it. Language - healthy addiction, unlike one of my addictions - Je fume.



I always translate the sentences from Turkish to French, from English to Spanish and so on.. Then I usually have a headache  Is it really healthy? 

Kidding. But I know that learning languages avoids Alzheimer. Yes, it is a really healthy addiction.


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## geve

mytwolangs said:


> But yes you are right, as language learners, serious ones, the thought of language matters is never far from our minds.


I think this adds an interesting aspect to this thread: when interest for language interferes with the function of language. Discussing or thinking about the phrasing rather than what the phrase expressed. (I call that metalanguage but I'm not sure this is scientifically correct). This does happen to me a lot too... So would it be that discussing the form enables one to stop worrying about the content? Playing with words is pleasurable because it doesn't commit one to anything, it's not dangerous, it's one of these ways to escape reality?


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## judkinsc

Languages hold the power to influence. John Stuart Mill once studied why people are about 35% more apt to agree with a declarative [indicative] statement than with a conditional or subjunctive one. I believe one of the ancients studied the matter as well, perhaps it was Aristotle.

Languages direct belief and define the world and the relations between concepts, ideas, and ideologies. Everytime one speaks, it's an attempt to define reality in some way.

What then, is more enjoyable, than playing with that system that defines reality and giving to it double entendres; or making rhymes and poetry that reshape the word order for a different connotative effect?

What more delightful thing than to reshape reality according to one's whim?


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## Hakro

Dear Gève,

  I'm sorry but your serious question ("what's wrong with me/us...") is something I feel absolutely unable to answer.  

I share with you the idea and the pleasure of combining words into sentences for someone to understand. I'd say that puns, play-on-words, rhymes etc. are the best, the highest-level understanding what we can have between different languages; understanding another culture is another thing but I suppose you didn't think about it right here.

But I can assure that "Watching the sunset, feeling the wind on one's skin, sipping a good glass of wine ..." etc. is a part of an international paradise for most of us. 

On the other hand, I have to remind you that you, as the Fantômette, have to take care of all these young foreros who haven't yet got the idea that languages can't be translated word by word. You have to save them from the totalitarian idea that every word has an equivalent in any other language; it's not true as you know.

Dear Gève, I have seen your linguistic talent for about twelve months now, and I think that you, if anybody, can show the way for the newcomers how to learn to appreciate another language, the people who speak another language and the services that WR forums can give them.

  Now I'm not sure whether I answered your main question nor whether you understood my ideas; if not, send me a PM.


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## KaRiNe_Fr

Dear Hakro,
I'm sure after reading your post, Gève sig will turn into something like "Je suis rose" (turning red and blush)! 
This won't heal her sickness, I'm afraid.


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## geve

Beautifully put, judkinsc.  I knew I would find outstanding fellow addicts here!

Dear Hakro, I don't know if this really answers my question but it's certainly flattering  I can only follow Karine's suggestion!


Hakro said:


> I'd say that puns, play-on-words, rhymes etc. are the best, the highest-level understanding what we can have between different languages; understanding another culture is another thing but I suppose you didn't think about it right here.


I wasn't thinking specifically about translating or language learning when starting this thread, but there is something to it indeed: How frustrating it is when you can't do what you want with words in a language that is not your mothertongue... and how very thrilling when you manage to 'tame' them!


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## jabogitlu

Your comment about thinking about things in the languaeg you're learning, I do that as well.  It's grown to the point that when I go back to study lecture notes, I find that I have unwittingly written them in Spanish. Jinxies!


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## Hakro

geve said:


> I wasn't thinking specifically about translating or language learning when starting this thread, but there is something to it indeed: How frustrating it is when you can't do what you want with words in a language that is not your mothertongue... and how very thrilling when you manage to 'tame' them!


Dear Gève,

After all, I think that we have a common idea: the greatest award that we can get for our studying of languages is to understand what a foreigner is talking about and to get some foreigner to understand what I'm trying to splutter. Isn't it so?


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## Hakro

KaRiNe_Fr said:


> Dear Hakro,
> I'm sure after reading your post, Gève sig will turn into something like "Je suis rose" (turning red and blush)!
> This won't heal her sickness, I'm afraid.


Dear Karine,
I really do't know how to comfort Gève, because the question she made was larger than I can handle. Please help me!


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## geve

Hakro said:


> Dear Gève,
> 
> After all, I think that we have a common idea: the greatest award that we can get for our studying of languages is to understand what a foreigner is talking about and to get some foreigner to understand what I'm trying to splutter. Isn't it so?


I'm not sure I understand you. <kidding!>
From my perspective, though, and this is the topic of this thread, it's more than just making yourself understood. For addicts like me, words induce pleasure for themselves - beyond the ideas that they express.

Oh, and I don't really need comfort - didn't I say I happily indulged in my addiction?  I'm not looking for a cure, but asking forer@s' perception of what the cause(s) of the disease might be.


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## KaRiNe_Fr

Hakro said:


> [...] Please help me!


I'm not sure I can help anyone here.  I share the same symptoms and I'm very scared now, as I don't want to have to wear a mask, a ridiculous yellow costume and worst of all, to have my hair blond!  
Ok, two seconds of seriousness now... 
As we are talkative animals, we have this additional pleasure: using articulated words, not only to communicate but also to commune with others. As laughing is the other humanity characteristic, with language, what else could be better (*) than playing with words to conciliate both? 

(*) yes, I know we are sexual animals too... But is it really better? And could you repeat the process again and again without any physiological limits?


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## Hakro

geve said:


> From my perspective, though, and this is the topic of this thread, it's more than just making yourself understood. For addicts like me, words induce pleasure for themselves - beyond the ideas that they express.


Now you're putting me against the wall, Gève, with my sparse vocabulary of English or French. Still I believe that I have a similar idea about the words themselves: how do they sound, where do they come from, how do they look like, what are the feelings that a certain word gives to you, etc.

As a writer I often think about the "picture" of a word made of letters: What should be the first word of a paragraph or a caption etc. because I have to attract the reader to read it.

The words themselves, beyond the ideas that they express, give me a somehow similar pleasure as to you, Gève, I believe.


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## Hakro

KaRiNe_Fr said:


> As we are talkative animals, we have this additional pleasure: using articulated words, not only to communicate but also to commune with others. As laughing is the other humanity characteristic, with language, what else could be better than playing with words to conciliate both?


Dear Karine,
Thank you for your words: _... what else could be better than playing with words_!

Some people have the gift to play with pictures (as you have) but it's very rare; some people have a gift to play with singing/playing music; some people have a gift of physical accomplishments; And so on.

Most of us on these Forums have the gift of playing with words. Let's make a profit of it!


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## danielfranco

I've always thought that my interest in how language works and my addiction to finding equivalent idioms and turn of phrases in English and Spanish is one way to soothe one or more of my neuroses....
I'm not entirely sure if an almost-obsessive behaviour can be healthy for anyone, but for the sake of argument, let's pretend that tomorrow the medical scientists find a miracle drug that will cure you of all obsessive-compulsive behavior. And then, you take the medication and you are cured of your addiction.
Would such cure not diminish your enjoyment of life? Would it not, in fact, lower your quality of life?
You'd have to be crazy to be cured of your addiction, then!

Or so I justify many things I do....


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## caballoschica

You'd be normal and boring if you didn't have an addiction of some sort.  I suppose that makes me insane then.  I'm obsessed with tennis and horses. And, to an extent, language and accents.  It's not really a stress outlet for me.....but it does calm my nerves in some sense.   I like solving problems to forget about real-life problems.  And language is a complex "problem"


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## .   1

I write to help me try to understand.
It is all well and good to have a concept running around in my mind but there is no way of testing that concept that is more efficient than communicating that concept to someone else.
I have often changed my mind during responses to posts here because the concepts did not translate into words that made sense so I knew that the concepts were flawed.
Art is fundamentally communication but communication can be so much more than art and this internet experience where and artist can reach a large audience instantly and hold them with nothing more than words will usher in a  new generation of pure communication artists.
There will be a minimalist contest to convey the most with the least and communication will be a winner.

Robert


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## maxiogee

My more considered response will follow later - but my initial reaction about this is that this forum beats talking to real people. Beats it hands down! I had a family Christmas-party for my sister on Saturday night - a gang of cousins who are, individually and collectively, a gang of vain, money-chasing self-obsessed idiots truly wonderful people.
I longed for all my imaginary friends here!
I was sorely tempted to sneak away to my new attic and ignore them for a wee while, but duty dragged me back.


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## Nunty

I read a story once, a science-fantasy sort of thing, where someone was given the gift of seeing with an artist's eyes for a time. The world was profoundly changed for him, during that time and afterwards.

A professional photographer once responded to my question about what he could possibly see to photograph in our unkempt, water-starved fig tree-and-hollyhock garden. He replied by messing around with his camera on the tripod for a moment and inviting me to look. An impossibly tiny flying insect poised on a leaf that was a deeper shade of green than its own translucent wings. A moment of transcendant beauty.

Artists cherish art all around them. Wordsmiths cherish words, language. I could never find the visual beauty in odd places that my photographer-friend finds, at least not without a guide, but he could never experience my sensual joy in a really well-worded sentence, in a well-argued paragraph with rich vocabulary and a strong rhetorical rhythm, in a delicious story or essay whose words you want to hold in your mouth and swirl around on your tongue and then swallow to make them a part of you forever.

What I'm saying, I guess, is that God made flowers of different colors to give beauty to the plant world and we, too, are made of different "colors" to give beauty to humanity. I think we're just "made that way", and I thank the Creator for the gift of loving language and the ability to use it and play with it and to share its love with others of its lovers.

Too serious? Sorrrrrrrry!


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## .   1

Nun-Translator said:


> Too serious? Sorrrrrrrry!


Too serious?  Not at all.  Not that such a thing could occur in a place such as this.
Wonderful words sister.

Robert


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## geve

How very glad I am that I asked! Thank you for all the interesting answers.

Thank you especially Nun-T for your thoughts, and in particular for the so vivid and realistic image _"words you want to hold in your mouth and swirl around on your tongue and then swallow to make them a part of you forever"_ - I love it. 
The comparison with photography is interesting. So the addiction would indeed be something about the brain, a certain look on things, a view angle through which one sees and interprets the world. 

Tony, don't mix this thread with this one for instance  even though one addiction can explain the other one! When you regularly meet intelligent people, and people who resemble you in such a fundamental aspect (since this forum's mission statement is likely to attract people with a similar turn of mind), you tend to get more demanding with your acquaintances...


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## fenixpollo

I agree with Robert, Dan and the Sister... Language is not a pastime, but a way of understanding the world and relating to it. The universe, for me, is made of words; every object is constructed of letters.


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## palomnik

OK, we all love each other and working on languages - words.  Enough self-congratulation, already!  

If I may strike a more sombre chord on the argument, I have wondered frequently what drives me to an interest in language.  One conclusion is that I'm not happy with who I am, and I am constantly trying to re-invent myself in another culture.  Has anybody ever wondered about that in relation to themselves?


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## .   1

palomnik said:


> OK, we all love each other and working on languages - words. Enough self-congratulation, already!
> 
> If I may strike a more sombre chord on the argument, I have wondered frequently what drives me to an interest in language. One conclusion is that I'm not happy with who I am, and I am constantly trying to re-invent myself in another culture. Has anybody ever wondered about that in relation to themselves?


I don't know where you found the 'love each other' quote to then denigrate. I do not love everyone here and not many love me. I am here using words to try to understand my perception of reality.
If you don't love yourself you will be constantly trying to reinvent yourself. I love myself enough to not be bothered by this problem.

Robert


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## Nunty

palomnik said:


> OK, we all love each other and working on languages - words.  Enough self-congratulation, already!
> 
> If I may strike a more sombre chord on the argument, I have wondered frequently what drives me to an interest in language.  One conclusion is that I'm not happy with who I am, and I am constantly trying to re-invent myself in another culture.  Has anybody ever wondered about that in relation to themselves?


If that is how you really feel, I am sorry. I hope you find what you are looking for in languages and cultures, but most people find it within themselves.

For my part, I am one of the many forer@s who grew up in bilingual or multilingual homes. My first three languages came with mother's milk, and the rest were the result of other changes I made in my life, or were necessary for my work. That doesn't mean I love languages any less; if you like, I was conditioned to this by my early childhood linguistic experience.


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## maxiogee

Nun-Translator said:


> My first three languages came with mother's milk,



So *that's* a free gift worth having - the tatty old plastic toy/carrboard cut-outs which Kelloggs _other breakfast foods_ used to give pale into insignificance by comparison,


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## Aoyama

Well, words are like candies, you should _suck_ them slowly, enjoy the taste (each one is different). Each language brings it's own taste. The same word in a different language will _taste_ different ...


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## geve

I don't think palomnik's comment is sad or irrelevant here; he simply tried to analyze what this turn of mind said about him or meant/brought to him, and I do wonder about that too.
All your comments got me thinking (probably more than I had thought!), and I put together a few hypothesis, elaborating on what some of you said. Some are concomitant, some might seem contradictory, but I think they're all valid to some extent. So: passion for words and languages maybe has to do with...

Stroking one's ego - or simply, with self-esteem, and self-understanding. Sometimes I'm baffled - and proud - that this came up from _my_ brain! I didn't know it was in there.
Revealing oneself. When I've spent some time on a word, a sentence, a text, surely the result says something about me (and that goes along with the reluctance to share one's work sometimes).
Creating a rampart of words around one. Showing some wit with words might be a way to keep some distance with people.
Trying to have a firm grip on reality and time - I tend to cling to every word I read or write.
Keeping reality at a safe distance. When I'm busy writing artistic non-sense or dissecting a sentence, my brain is not available for depressing facts and thoughts.
Trying to understand the world, giving it a shape that is understandable to one.
Changing the world, reshaping it to make it more enjoyable, more poetic, more meaningful.
Reaching a state of drunkenness and forget everything up to oneself - taking a fix, getting high on words. Or a moment of transcendant beauty to use Nun-T's words.
My 289 cents 
(yes, the rate of words today is 1 word = 1 cent, for convenience reasons - and I don't charge for this last sentence!)


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## justjukka

I, too, am addicted to langauge.  Language can be a tool, a weapon, and a form of art.  I am studying two languages at the moment and relish in the idea of arming myself with new tools of speach.  It's a shameless joy in life.


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## Hakro

Rozax said:


> I, too, am addicted to langauge. Language can be a tool, a weapon, and a form of art. I am studying two languages at the moment and relish in the idea of arming myself with new tools of speach. It's a shameless joy in life.


You said it, Rozax! 

I'm using all the languages I know as tools, my own laguage as a method of making art, and I know I have a language weapon if needed.


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## caballoschica

palomnik said:


> OK, we all love each other and working on languages - words.  Enough self-congratulation, already!
> 
> If I may strike a more sombre chord on the argument, I have wondered frequently what drives me to an interest in language.  One conclusion is that I'm not happy with who I am, and I am constantly trying to re-invent myself in another culture.  Has anybody ever wondered about that in relation to themselves?



That is an interesting concept and completely valid theory.  Language and culture, just like music and culture, are intertwined.  

It's just like slang for certain sports, peoples, and social groups.  "Street talk" or "Surfer slang"  or "Snowboarding slang."  Why do they have that slang? Because they share a common interest.  Why do certain parts of the country call the third meal of the day "supper"  and others "dinner" and in some places they're interchangeable? It's the culture of the people.  

So maybe it is an identity thing.  Would we like to identify ourselves with a certain culture by speaking their language or dialect? Do we hold our own culture with pride and just fascinated by the other culture? Or are we fascinated because we would rather be in that other culture? 

Is language an Identity of who we are? 

In relation to myself...

I was fascinated by Spanish culture and passionate about learning the language before.  Lately, I've been a little burnt out.  I'll be honestly glad not to be taking Spanish classes next semester.  Today was my last day of Spanish class for this year.  I didn't feel one bit of sadness.  It really is a shame, but that class truly burnt me out.  I write it well, speak it well, and understand it, but it's not a passionate interest anymore.  It's a "I can do it so I'll use it when I need to communicate with a Spanish speaker" thing now.  I literally was thinking of becoming a double chemistry major with Area Studies in Spanish as my second. That probably won't happen.  Before, I wanted to go abroad to a Spanish-speaking country.  Now I'm looking at English-speaking countries.  I hope I do regain my interest in Spanish.  

So right now I've switched my interest from Spanish to 'other Englishes.'  I always have loved UK and Australian accents.  I think dialects are fascinating.  Always have been fascinated by dialectical differences in English anyways.  As some of you probably know by now, I was a non-rhotic speaker when I was younger. I was called British, French, Bostonian, New Yorker...I never thought I sounded any different than any other Ohioan until I finally learned to monitor my speech and learned to pronounce the r.  So I've always wondered what the 'other Englishes' sound like and why people were saying what they were.  There's always a part of you that wants to conform, then the other part says, "Why?" So I ended up talking how I thought sounded natural, not what others said I should sound like.  Sometimes, though, I think I should go somewhere, pick up their accent, and say I've been there, that's why I have X accent.  Not saying, I have X accent because I have no idea why.  It really shouldn't matter though, should it?


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## geve

Rozax said:


> I, too, am addicted to langauge. Language can be a tool, a weapon, and a form of art. I am studying two languages at the moment and relish in the idea of arming myself with new tools of speach. It's a shameless joy in life.


Well... some people make lists and spend an enormous amount of cents, and then others need only one sentence.


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## Amityville

geve said:


> ... metalanguage...


 
Whether strictly correct or not, it certainly fills a gap (your definition) and I do like your bullet-list up there. 

The exact wording and construction of our utterances and outbursts IS important - misquoting is a terrible thing to do. Most people do have a fine and subtle appreciation of their language, even if they have never learned to analyse it, and haven't a second language to give it perspective. Some few, instinctive and spontaneous, just have the 'gift of the gab', speaking like poets as naturally as they breathe. Others (count me in) struggle to build extensions on to their native hardwiring, and can end up effectively switching off the lights on the very thing we are trying to achieve for ourselves, communication, struck dumb by their wizardry, busily trying to explain it to ourselves, commit it to memory etc. For them, it must be as if we are ignoring their arguments, the thrust of their words, and are staring fixedly at a spot on their nose. Imagine how irritating that must be ! Kills spontaneity.
Aspects of loss, aspects of gain.


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## fenixpollo

geve said:


> It's something with my brain - it's not normal.
> What's wrong with me/us?


 We *are* sick, and I have found the answer!  It's that we have an enlarged *Wernicke's area* in our brains! It's like gigantism, but for language phreaks!


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## KaRiNe_Fr

fenixpollo said:


> We *are* sick, and I have found the answer!  It's that we have an enlarged *Wernicke's area* in our brains! It's like gigantism, but for language phreaks!


And what about the *Broca's area* (*)? Are you in to be part of the WR panel for an experiment? 

(*) for some reason, I prefer this area...


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## JazzByChas

Note: I was just reading "*"Foroholisme" and other modern addictions",* and got directed here...interesting "turn" of events... 

Well, if the expression of thought and feelings and perception is the most important human undertaking, then _“the word’s the thing”_ (with apologies to Bill S.)

I am one of those strange fellows who first discovered how his logical/linguistic-al brain worked when I used to harmonize with bathroom fans. (Ooooo-Kaaaay…Chas, know we *KNOW* you’re weird! ,  ) And then I realized I loved hearing people speak the English language differently – I noticed this first in England when I was about 7 or 8, and I heard Brits speak English, and thought it was “ever so lover-ly”.

Then I began to notice that even in my native country, people spoke in different dialects and with differing nuances. My friend, BoneChillin and I just can’t seem to help mimicking the way others talk: not because we are cruel, but we just love the way it sounds…I guess it would be pointless to say that we are into AAVE as a hobby… 

_(in sneaks the logical…)_

Then I began to realize I really liked the way language was put together, both grammatically and as a reader of books, especially in mystery novels. Interesting descriptions of situations and emotions, of which there are thousands in my head, but they all seem to escape me now. 

And, as has been suggested, when you can master turns of phrases, or innuendo, or puns, or even drole humor in a tongue other than your own, _eh bien, là voilà!_

So if loving language is an addiction, and we are somehow “sick” for feeling that way, then I would say…May I never recover from this luxurious illness!

 
N.B: I should have know La Fantômette started this thread: great...no, make that _interesting_ minds think alike!


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## Lugubert

Some people collect stamps, some collect beer bottles etc. It probably gives them a thrill to see their collection grow.

Not much different from myself collecting scripts and associated languages. That this collecting gives me more opportunities to read books that haven't been translated - or have been imperfectly translated - into my mother tongue, and to communicate with people who don't know my language, is just an added benefit.

On added benefits, I earn a rather comfortable living as a technical/medical translator, combining my interest in languages with an interest and an education in sciences.

I have seen an MR pic of my brain which clearly shows that a stroke created an infarction in my right brain. Had it hit the left part, I might have had to re-school to for example a career as a gardener. I wouldn't be surprised if it were shown that brain centres of understanding of chemistry and languages overlap. It would be interesting to know if there is any hyperplasia of my Broca and Wernicke areas, but the MR scan just highlighted dead tissue.


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## alexacohen

. said:


> I write to help me try to understand.
> It is all well and good to have a concept running around in my mind but there is no way of testing that concept that is more efficient than communicating that concept to someone else.


I agree with this. 
I work in a place which is full of people. But I don't talk with them.
I say sentences, "sorry, sir, the plane is closed for check in", "please fill in the lost luggage report", "sorry, you've been overbooked", "captain, the engine number one is not working properly". The words I receive as answer may vary; but they are likely to be a long tirade of abuse. Not meant to communicate, but to hurt.
So, being a language addict, does not mean that I'm sick. It's better to be talking with you while just pretending I'm listening to long tirades of abuse .
In fact, it's healthier.
(tricks are explained in detail in thread about the ten do and don'ts of a forer@)
Alexa


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## geve

Lugubert said:


> Some people collect stamps, some collect beer bottles etc. It probably gives them a thrill to see their collection grow.
> 
> Not much different from myself collecting scripts and associated languages.


Indeed! And a collection of words is probably cheaper, more democratic (available to all) and easier to carry around than any other collection.
You can easily recognize word collectors when they stop in the middle of a sentence and say "oh I just love how this word sounds" - and it's always delightful to meet fellow sufferers.


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## JazzByChas

I am all for developing a collection of words and phrases in nuances in my and other languages...I love dissecting phrases, meanings, and sentence structure, and most of all, communicating cross-culturally.

Of course, as is with any other addiction, you may find yourself needing to wean yourself from letting it take over your life, especially if your life has not as its main purpose (profession) to be a linguist.

I find myself in this position...although lately, I am even more involved in WR...

So..I think that WR (forum) itself is a drug...perhaps certain kinds of gamma rays are emitted from the pages of this forum that subliminally send you the message

_..."stay in this forum...stay in this forum..."_


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