# bir -i



## modus.irrealis

Hi,

I was a little surprised to find out that a noun followed by _bir_ can be definite and use the -i case ending. In my book, there's the example:

Gözlerimle oturacak bir yer ararken arkadaşım bana boş kalan bir koltuğu gösterdi.

First, I just want to make sure that this sound natural, and then ask when do use the -i ending with _bir_? Right now, I'm thinking that when _bir_ means "a certain" and refers to something or someone specific then the noun is treated as being definite, but otherwise it's indefinite. Does that sound right? To take an example, the English sentence "I'm looking for a Turkish person" is ambiguous but you could you get rid of the ambiguity in Turkish by having:

Bir türk arıyorum (any Turkish person)
Bir türkü arıyorum (a specific Turkish person).


----------



## avok

"bir koltuğu " : here the -i ending does not have any definite meaning but it is used as an "accusative case" (like in German). For instance, I show you _a dog_: an accusative case. Well, in English there is no accusative case so I dont know how to explain it. The person just shows a chair. Thats all.

so, it is "not": I show you a/the dog!!!!!!!!!! It would be nonsense. 

Look: "Accusative" a.(in certain inflected languages, as Latin, Greek, or Russian) noting a case whose distinctive function is to indicate the direct object of a verb or the object of certain prepositions


> I'm thinking that when _bir_ means "a certain" and refers to something or someone specific then the noun is treated as being definite, but otherwise it's indefinite.


 
I see what you want to say but...I ll look at your example:

Bir türk arıyorum (any Turkish person): I am looking for any Turk. Does not matter who they are.

Bir türkü arıyorum (a specific Turkish person). I am looking for a specific Turk. But still, the person that I am talking to does not know who this person is so, in a way, the person I am looking for, is still someone indefinite. 

I am looking for a turk: Bir türk arıyorum 
I am looking for _this _Turk:Bir türkü arıyorum (here" this " does not necessarily mean "the opposite of that" but just like in "bir türkü" there is an unknown definite.) I am looking for this turkish guy...the speaker does not necessarily show the guy when he says "this turkish guy", the Turkish guy is just indefinite. 

sorry it is a bit complicated


----------



## modus.irrealis

Thanks. I am familiar with the accusative case from other languages, but I thought that you only use the accusative case ending when the direct object is definite and I'm trying to understand what "definite" means for Turkish, since it's not the same across languages. Would you say, then, that I should of it as being that the speakers uses the case ending -i when he has a specific someone/something in mind, and the absence of the ending is sort of equivalent to "any"?


----------



## avok

Keep in mind that actually in Turkish we dont give importance to definite/indefinite situations as it is done in English or romance languages.
I know some grammarians say that the accusative case in Turkish is the definite case. But this is not really the case. I mean the definite article and the definiteness that comes along with this article in English (the...)  are not a part of our grammar. It is the English grammar. so dont try to understand what "definite" means in Turkish because we dont even do it. We dont have a definite article and the accusative case in Turkish can never replace a definite article that does not exist in Turkish. So each concrete case has its own in/definiteness, you just feel it. I ll read the other part of your question later because it looks hard !!!!!


----------



## Tabac

*I've followed this thread, and as an English speaker, I find what Avok says to be clear if I substitute the word "specific" for "definite".  *


----------



## Outsider

avok said:


> "bir koltugu " : here the -i ending does not have any definite meaning but it is used as an "accusative case" (like in German). For instance, I show you _a dog_: an accusative case. Well, in English there is no accusative case so I dont know how to explain it. The person just shows a chair. Thats all.


Could we translate it as "Here's the dog", or "here's a dog"? Like in the Latin phrase _ecce homo_, "here is the man"?


----------



## avok

Outsider said:


> Could we translate it as "Here's the dog", or "here's a dog"? Like in the Latin phrase _ecce homo_, "here is the man"?


 
Hmmm, What do we say when we show a dog in turkish as it is said "ecce ..." in Latin??
If that's the question: "İşte köpek". It is literally "here is dog", it is not marked whether it is definite or indefinite but I feel it is definite (specific?, I guess "specific" is better ) because I cant see any "bir" which is "one" in English. So it cant be just "a" dog.


----------



## death_glory

many times "bir" can be used with "-i"; for example
i'm looking for someone: "biri"ni ariyorum
i'm looking for one of them: onlardan "biri"ni ariyorum etc

but when -i is used with "bir"; "biri" can be used not only a specific person(or object) but also anyone; "onlardan birini ariyorum" means; who i'm looking for is one of those people or i'm looking for anyone of those people.

but what you told is right;
Bir türk arıyorum (any Turkish person) no matter who he/she is but he/she should be a turk 
Bir türkü arıyorum (a specific Turkish person). who you are looking for is a Turk, he is specific


----------

