# Questions Regarding Clothing



## Kos

Cześć wszystkim 

I have a question regarding clothing terminology.
It's a bit funny, but depite years of learning Polish I never fully learned how to say "_to zip_" or "_to zip up_" a _jacket/hood/jeans _etc. in Polish.  My guess would be "_zapinąć kurtkę/bluzę/dżinsy_" but I'm not sure what verb to possibly apply to "hood."

Also, when using the verb "mieścić" to mean "to fit", would we use the transitive form when trying to convey:
"I fit this shirt." - _"Mieszczę tę koszulkę_" (sounds odd even to me)

Or would we use the verb with a reflexive as in:
"_Koszulka mi się mieści_." 

In theory, could we apply the verb "mieścić to other situtaions that involve fitting, such as "Klucz nie mieści się do drzwi?"

I hope I'm not asking too many questions in one thread but I feel they're all pretty closely related.
Będę wdzięczny za odpowiedzi 
-Kos


----------



## majlo

It's not "zapinąć" but "zapinać" or "zapiąć" (Perf.).

I've never seen a hood with a zip, but if there's one, I would also use "zapinać".

As for 'fit,' iut's not "mieścić się," but "pasować." That is, "Ta koszulka na mnie (nie) pasuje."

And yes, you can say "Ten klucz nie mieści się w zamku" or "Ta koszulka nie mieści mi się w torbie".


----------



## Ben Jamin

Or “Ja się nie mieszczę w tę koszulę”


----------



## dreamlike

As far as "mieścić" goes, you can well say *"Nie zmieszczę się w te spodnie / koszulę / koszulkę"* meaning *"these garments are too small for me to wear*". It sounds perfectly natural to my ears, but I don't know if the same is the case in other parts of Poland.


----------



## Ben Jamin

dreamlike said:


> As far as "mieścić" goes, you can well say *"Nie zmieszczę się w te spodnie / koszulę / koszulkę"* meaning *"these garments are too small for me to wear*". It sounds perfectly natural to my ears, but I don't know if the same is the case in other parts of Poland.



It would be strange if this expression was a regionalism. It belongs to common Polish.


----------



## LilianaB

Hi, Kos. What do you mean by zip a hood? Do you mean to attach the hood which has a zipper around, one that connects the hood with the jacket? Another thing, what do you mean by I fit the shirt? The shirt fits me, no? To zip one's pants would be zapiąć spodnie. Koszula mi pasuje, nie jest za mała. Mieszczę się w tą koszulą, in informal language. Doczepić kaptur.


----------



## dreamlike

As far as I know, the meaning of "Hood" is not restricted to "a part of a coat, etc. that you can pull up to cover the back and top of your head" (OED). I might be mistaken, but I think it's the colloquial word for "zipped sweatshirt with hood" in the US. It's not recognized by any dictionary, though. 
I take it that "I fit the shirt" is the colloquial version of "The shirt fits me". 

Koszula mi pasuje, nie jest za mała. - Koszula *na mnie* pasuje, nie jest za mała. 

Ta koszula mi pasuje would mean "I like this shirt, I'm willing to buy it".​


----------



## LilianaB

No, no, Dreamlike. Maybe in your region. Koszula mi pasuje. Spodnie mi pasyja. Sa odpowiedniego rozmiaru. Dobrze na mnie wygladaja.  What you said in your last sentence would be true in slang. Prosze przymierzyc. Czy pasuje Panu ta koszula? Are you claiming it should be: prosze przymierzyc czy Pasuje na Pana ta koszula? Czy pasuja na Pana te buty? Czy pasuje na Pana ta czapka? Czy pasuja na Pana te nauszniki? Some people even say, czy pasuje dla Pana to, from Eastern regions, I think, which is wrong in standard Polish. Hood is kaptur in Polish. Hoodie is  a sweatshirt, in more informal language.


----------



## Stardusd

H!
I would like to show how Poles speak in Brazil, where they are the minority, and don't update their language. Should them do this? Do Australian Poles do? Other countrie's Poles do? I refer as Poles abroad Poland as been Immigrants and their families.
Let's go to my family's common expressions.

Zip the hood >>>>>>> Zasuń kapćióch
I fit this shirt>>>>>>> Ta koszula jest dopasowana na mnie. (Nie ciasna, nie luźna).
About the key/door>>> Klucz nie nadaje się do drzwi.

My reply is to Kos #1


----------



## dreamlike

LilianaB said:
			
		

> No, no, Dreamlike. Maybe in your region. Koszula mi pasuje. Spodnie mi pasyja.



This is plain wrong. As you said, you haven't been exposed to Polish for a long time, and it's readily apperent. Koszula pasuje *na mnie*. Koszula mi pasuje would mean a completely different thing. You're fighting a lost battle, Liliana.


----------



## LilianaB

You are right: I have not been to a Polish clothing store for at least thirty years. This is what sounds natural to me, although it may be something that is typical of a certain regional pronunciation. This is what they used in the children's department, I think.


----------



## dreamlike

Quite apart from the fact that it does not sound natural to me, I consider it wrong in the context given, since it means a completely different thing. "Coś komuś pasuje" is a colloquial version of "Coś komuś odpowiada", very popular with people these days.

Nie pasuje mi ta koszula = I don't like this shirt
Spotkajmy się o 15:00. Pasuje ci ta godzina? = If we met at 3, would that suit you?


----------



## LilianaB

We are talking about two completely different expressions: The one I meant is: Czy te buty Panu pasuja - meaning: Do these shoes fit you? Since you don't think it is standard Polish, it might be slightly regional, from the regions influence by German to a certain extant: Upper Silesia, Poznan, Gdansk, mostly. The other phrase is a slang phrase: pasuje to Panu? Czy Panu to odpowiada?


----------



## dreamlike

You made no mention of the meaning I was talking about (which I think is the only one), so I took it that you are not familiar with it. I have a hard time believing people have used it (or still do) to mean that some garment fits them or not. 

Liliana, you don't seem to understand that if the expression had two meanings, as you claim, they would be mutually exclusive. "Nie pasują mi te buty" can't mean "I don't like these shoes" and "These shoes don't fit me" at the same time.


----------



## LilianaB

The expression does not have two meanings. They are two different expressions. One is a regional, most likely, variety of a formal expression used while trying something clothes on. The other one is a slang expression which means: Doest it suit you well? It is very hard to have a productive discussion on this forum because too few people from different regions participate, so the interpretation of all linguistic problems is left to two or three people, who are used to their version of Polish.


----------



## dreamlike

You missed the point of my post. Call it what you want, Liliana, it can be either two different expressions or one expression with two different meanings, to me. The thing is that when somebody says *"Nie pasują mi te buty" *the alleged two meanings overlap (I don't like these shoes vs They don't fit me), and one doesn't really know which meaning the speaker has in mind. Provided that what you're saying is true, what I find very unlikely. The standard expression is "Coś nie pasuje *na* kogoś", and there's no point deviating from it. 

Has anyone heard of the expression/meaning Liliana is talking about? Especially people from:


			
				LilianaB said:
			
		

> Upper Silesia, Poznan, Gdansk, mostly.


----------



## dn88

dreamlike said:


> You missed the point of my post. Call it what you want, Liliana, it can be either two different expressions or one expression with two different meanings, to me. The thing is that when somebody says *"Nie pasują mi te buty" *the alleged two meanings overlap (I don't like these shoes vs They don't fit me), and one doesn't really know which meaning the speaker has in mind. Provided that what you're saying is true, what I find very unlikely. The standard expression is "Coś nie pasuje *na* kogoś", and there's no point deviating from it.
> 
> Has anyone heard of the expression/meaning Liliana is talking about? Especially people from:


I, too, would expect *"Nie pasują mi te buty"*  to mean "I don't like these shoes" in almost every conceivable context.


----------



## LilianaB

Apparently only the slang usage is popular these days. I would like to see what somebody from Poznan, let's say, would say. So, you would say: nie pasuja na mnie te buty, meaning size.


----------



## Kos

Thank you all for the feedback.  I didn't mean to incorrectly spell zapinać in my initial post. I must've messed up the typing. Good catch, Majlo 

When it comes to fit, I have two interpretations of it.  I'm not a native Polish speaker, but when I see "pasować" in the context of "fit", I learned to interpret it as being visually fitting, as in it "goes nicely" or "suits" with the rest of someones current clothing or just overall looks good on them.  When I see "mieścić" I think of physically fitting into the clothes, as in the shirt, shoes, pants etc. are the right size. My thoughts could be totally wrong since Polish is my second language, but thats what I've alway had in mind.  

In English, I link it as so:
Pasować - to suit "That shirt suits you well" or "That shirt goes nicely with those pants."
Mieścić - to fit (physically) "These shoes don't fit."

I'm guessing that by adding "na" after "pasować" it changes the meaning to conveying the idea that something physically fits "on" somebody, which seems to make sense 

As for "to zip" a hood, I've seen some hoods that zip all the way or just half way.  I think I originally had in the mind the act of pulling the drawstrings of a hood to close it.  I apologize for the lack of clarification on that.


----------



## Ben Jamin

Pasować has two main meanings: the original was physical (mechanical) fitting - just two parts that fit each other, like a bolt and a nut. The second is to be suitable or to match: this dress doesn't suit the occasion, or the shirt doesn't match the trousers. A Polish speaker may use the word pasować also in the meaning to convene, to be appropriate, even to like something. So your theory is, unfortunately, premature.


----------



## dreamlike

Ben Jamin said:
			
		

> A Polish speaker may use the word pasować also in the meaning to convene, to be appropriate, even to like something. So your theory is, unfortunately, premature.



 And how does that undermine Kos's theory? "Pasować" covers a range of meanings, he might not be familiar with all of them. Kos, the points you made in your last post sound like a fair summary to me 

*Pasować *is mainly used to mean *"going nicely with the rest of the clothes" (1)* or *"looking well on a paricular person" (2). *The third meaning is *"the garment being the right size" (3).*
*(1)* Te buty nie pasują do spodni, poszukaj innych.* (2)* Ładnie wyglądasz w tej koszuli, naprawdę do ciebie pasuje. *(3)* Sprawdź czy będzie na ciebie pasować ta koszulka, Tomek nosił ją tylko dwa razy, możemy Ci ją oddać.


----------



## kknd

if it'd change anything i just want to say that i agree with dreamlike… (central poland, masovia)


----------



## perevoditel

LilianaB said:


> People had a tendency to say: te buty mi pasuja. Wezme je. Very few people would say: te buty na mnie pasuja. Wezme je. Thiis was only related to size.



Here you're right, but with "Te buty mi pasuja" I must agree with others. It may sound odd, but it's regulary used, especially in expression "I like it" - "To mi pasuje", and especially by teenagers. Maybe it's a bit other outside of Poland (since you're from Lithuania and live in US), when I came to Norway, I met other Polish then I used to in my homecountry.


----------



## LilianaB

You are just too used to slang. Just ask your mother, she a Polish Philologist, I think. You are making too many assumptions, Perevoditel. I told you I lived in different countries, and people in my family spoke several different languages.
If a person lives in Edinburgh do you automatically assume that they don't speak English?


----------



## dreamlike

LilianaB said:
			
		

> te buty mi pasuja. Wezme je. Very few people would say: te buty na mnie pasuja. Wezme je. Thiis was only related to size.



You have been proved wrong by a number of Polish speakers, why can't you come to terms with the fact that you got it wrong? "Te buty mi pasują" would mean "I like these shoes" in every single context I can think of. It has nothing to do with their size. If you want it to mean "these shoes are my size", you have to add *na mnie*. ALL the people would say that, not "very few". 

The link you provided proves the exact opposite of your view. The verb "pasować" is used only with preposition.


> idealnie pasować *do* naszych butów
> Buty powinny idealnie pasować *do* wiązań narciarskich



You are the only person who claims that "Buty mi mi pasują" is used to mean "these shoes are my size". You didn't provide any proof, and didn't answer the arguments I pointed out on the previous page, which completely undermine your theory. Are we supposed to take your word for it? I asked some people living in the places where it's allegedly used this way, and they know nothing about it. You simply made it up.


----------



## LilianaB

No, it would not mean that in some regions. Also not everybody uses the slang expression: pasuje mi, to mi pasuje. I agree that buty pasuja na Pana noge, may be better in formal language. Buty na Pana pasuja, sounds weird, but you can probably get by with it. Linguists nowadays are interested in the live language, the way it is spoken in different locations, not in some prescriptive rules imposed by a group of people. There is nothing all people would say. Look at paragraph 6: czy buty pasuja i nie sa za ciasne. I am not claiming that the my version is the only one. I know that in some regions people have a tendency to say: plaszcz pasuje na mnie. However, please don't say that my version is not used in certain regions, because you really don't know.


----------



## perevoditel

@Liliana I didn't say it's not Polish, but it's other Polish. Language doesn't change the same way in different places.

http://www.sjp.pl/pasowa%E6 - nothing about liking, so OK, we can say it's slang.


----------



## dn88

LilianaB said:


> No, it would not mean that in some regions. Also not everybody uses the slang expression: pasuje mi, to mi pasuje. I agree that buty pasuja na Pana noge, may be better in formal language. Buty na Pana pasuja, sounds weird, but you can probably get by with it. Linguists nowadays are interested in the live language, the way it is spoken in different locations, not in some prescriptive rules imposed by a group of people. There is nothing all people would say. Look at paragraph 6: czy buty pasuja i nie sa za ciasne. I am not claiming that the my version is the only one. I know that in some regions people have a tendency to say: plaszcz pasuje na mnie. However, please don't say that my version is not used in certain regions, because you really don't know.



"...czy buty pasują i nie są za ciasne" - in this case "na ciebie" is implied.

In the context of shoes being too big or too small, however, I would be inclined to say something like "te buty są za duże/luźne/małe/ciasne" while trying them on.

I can't think of a situation in which "te buty mi pasują" would have something to do with size. I'm from Upper Silesia if that changes anything.


----------



## LilianaB

Yes, I am only taking about trying things on, in a store.


----------



## LilianaB

Very sorry, Perevoditel, but your dictionary does not seen like a reliable source. It does not even mention the meaning of something fitting in a physical sense, with na  or without. What do you mean by another Polish? I speak standard Polish.


----------



## dreamlike

You didn't take the trouble to provide any proof. Not a single person bore out what you say - you expect us to take your word for granted. It would not make any sense - I set forth reasons in my previous posts. You triggered yet another pointless discussion, in which you're unable to prove your point.


----------



## LilianaB

Language does not make sense, sometimes, unfortunately, or fortunately: whatever you prefer. Language is mostly based on convention.  Where do you think I took this expression, from? I don't make up Polish expressions. I am not an expression maker. I said it was most likely regional and I will stand by it.


http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://cache.blippitt.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Vermin-Supreme.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.blippitt.com/vermin-supreme-i-am-a-meme-video/&h=285&w=415&sz=55&tbnid=xvyfAAuoVH0HKM:&tbnh=89&tbnw=129&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dwear%2Ba%2Bboot%2Bon%2Bthe%2Bhead%2Bimage%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=wear+a+boot+on+the+head+image&docid=oTI5eTGcWHjwrM&sa=X&ei=Jld0T63SFoHx0gGlv_3_Ag&ved=0CCwQ9QEwAg&dur=2257

Ten but na Pana pasuje.


----------



## dreamlike

Most often, it does make sense and is all about rececognizing the patterns. The *convention *here is that "pasować" is followed by "na kogoś" to mean that something fits someone. I'm not going to repeat myself. 

I don't know what gave you the idea that such a phrase exists - probably not being exposed to Polish for a long time is taking its toll. What I do know, though, is that people living in the areas you talked about, have never heard of the expression/usage.


----------



## LilianaB

All the people living there? But you are right. Let's end it.


----------



## POLSKAdoBOJU

LilianaB said:


> Hi, Kos. What do you mean by zip a hood? Do you mean to attach the hood which has a zipper around, one that connects the hood with the jacket? Another thing, what do you mean by I fit the shirt? The shirt fits me, no? To zip one's pants would be zapiąć spodnie. Koszula mi pasuje, nie jest za mała. Mieszczę się w tą koszulą , in informal language. Doczepić kaptur.


_... w tę koszul__ę_. The accusitive (biernik) of ta is tę not tą. Tą is heard in informal speech, but as such should not be used when giving someone written advice on speaking Polish.


----------



## Ben Jamin

POLSKAdoBOJU said:


> _... w tę koszul__ę_. The accusitive (biernik) of ta is tę not tą. Tą is heard in informal speech, but as such should not be used when giving someone written advice on speaking Polish.


But even in very colloquial speech accusative is always “koszulę” not “koszulą”. Mieszczę się w tą koszulą   gives one out as a foreigner with at an intermediate level of command of Polish (at best).


----------



## LilianaB

No, I would say w tą koszulkę because I hate tę. It sounds pretentious and I don't even know if it is grammatically correct in many cases. Even if tą is not the first choice of many people, I would still prefer it. It is used in many regions.  It sounds much better to my ears and it is acceptable.


----------



## POLSKAdoBOJU

LilianaB said:


> No, I would say w tą koszulkę because I hate tę.


 I didn't know your personal preferences had a bearing on Polish grammar.



LilianaB said:


> It sounds pretentious and I don't even know if it is grammatically correct in many cases.


 It is correct in the Accusitive case in all instances. You will not find a single literary source stating the contrary.


----------



## LilianaB

I still hate it. I think many people avoid it in speech, because it sounds terrible, at least to me. The same is true about pronouning ę at the end of some words as a nasal sound. proszę Panią, for example. My preferences have bearing on how I speak Polish. You may do whatever you want.


----------



## Ben Jamin

LilianaB said:


> I still hate it. I think many people avoid it in speech, because it sounds terrible, at least to me. The same is true about pronouning ę at the end of some words as a nasal sound. proszę Panią, for example. My preferences have bearing on how I speak Polish. You may do whatever you want.



As long as you are not a native speaker, and don’t even live in Poland, your preferences are of no importance.
I dislike some popular English expressions, but I don’t proclaim it at the English forum.


----------



## dreamlike

LilianaB said:
			
		

> I still hate it. I think many people avoid it in speech, because it sounds terrible, at least to me.



What makes you think that people avoid it in speech? Most of them are not even aware of the distinction between "tę" and "tą", so it's not a question of preference when the say "tą". When a noun ends with "ę", it should be preceded by "tę". Tę koszulę. Tę rozmowę. 

It does not sound pretensious, not even in the slightest. It sounds correct.


----------



## majlo

I think to some it may sound pretentious. To me,  I must admit, it slightly does. In speech I usually prefer 'tą'. But in writing I usually use 'tę '.


----------



## LilianaB

See. Most of the people I have know speak this way.


----------



## dreamlike

I for one see nothing pretensious about it, and use it both in speech and writing.


----------



## majlo

The number of times I've heard people say "tę" in the street, at the post office etc. is - I believe - no more than 5!


----------



## dreamlike

Good. I don't think I have ever heard anyone say "tę" apart from my friend who strictly adheres to all language rules, and some teachers, perhaps. There's certainly nothing wrong with it in speech, but it doesn't sound right to my ears, nonetheless.


----------



## POLSKAdoBOJU

Ben Jamin said:


> Well, not quite, you mentioned only the word  tę/tą.


There was no need to mention _koszulę / koszulą_, as there is no doubt which is the Accusitive and which is the Instrumental. _Tę/tą_ needed to be mentioned because both are used in the Accusitive -_ tę_ in the historical, literary, prescriptive grammar language and _tą_ in informal, spoken registers.


----------



## Ben Jamin

POLSKAdoBOJU said:


> There was no need to mention _koszulę / koszulą_, as there is no doubt which is the Accusitive and which is the Instrumental. _Tę/tą_ needed to be mentioned because both are used in the Accusitive -_ tę_ in the historical, literary, prescriptive grammar language and _tą_ in informal, spoken registers.


It was not obvious for the person that made the mistake in the word koszula.


----------



## POLSKAdoBOJU

Ben Jamin said:


> It was not obvious for the person that made the mistake in the word koszula.


But this person is a self-proclaimed, native expert of Polish. 
ps. I corrected her and even wrote the _-ę_ in _koszulę_ in red in post #40. I can't be any more obvious than that and did not think any further discussion was warranted.


----------



## 1-2-3

Word entry for "pasować":

" *I pasować* _ndk_ _IV_, ~suję, ~sujesz, ~suj, ~ował, ~owany *1.* <<dostosowywać, zestawiać części tak, aby dobrze do siebie przylegały, przystawały; w technice: dobierać wymiary łączonych ze sobą elementów, aby zapewnić ich właściwą współpracę ruchową lub spoczynkową>>: Pasować okna, drzwi. Pasować ramy do obrazu. Pasować wałek do otworu maszyny.
*2.* <<dobrze przylegać, przystawać, być dopsaowanym (ani za dużym, ani za małym, w sam raz)>>: Klucz pasuje do zamka. Pantofle dobrze pasowały. Garnitur ojca pasował na syna. Pokrowce pasowały na meble. #_fraz._ _pot. _Pasuje jak ulał <<jest doskonale dopsaowany, dobrze przylega>>
*3.* <<być odpowiednim, właściwym, dobrze dobranym, nadawać się; odpowiadać sobie lub komuś>>: Torebka nie pasowała do sukni. Uczesanie pasuje, nie pasuje do twarzy. Pasowali do siebie jak dwie krople wody. #_fraz. pot. _Pasować jak wół do karety <<być źle dobranym, być nieodpowiednim, nie pasować>> <nm.>""

Reference: word enty for "pasować" in: Szymczak M. (red. nauk.), _Słownik języka polskiego_, Warszawa 1979, tom II, s. 615.


----------



## dopethrone

Would you really say _pasować ramy do obrazu_?


----------



## 1-2-3

Now? Having read the dictionary entry? Yes! Before I`d tend to say "dopasowywać ramy do obrazu", though. The thing is that we use language in a way we acqquired it (needles to say, it differs a lot from the "correct" way we are supposed to be using it). The dictionary makes crystal clear distinction between three possible meanings and I think we should stick to it.


----------



## dn88

dopethrone said:


> Would you really say _pasować ramy do obrazu_?


Well, I would. How would you say that?


----------



## cherry22

dopasowywać. tak mówi moja koleżanka.


----------

