# Pronouncing letters "c" and "z"



## Maya2805

I have noticed that in some parts of Spain (I visit Cataluna often)people pronounce "c" and "z" like english "th" almost (maiz, maceta, que haces).
Is this typical for most of Spain? How about other Spanish speaking countries?


----------



## diegodbs

Maya2805 said:
			
		

> I have noticed that in some parts of Spain (I visit Cataluna often)people pronounce "c" and "z" like english "th" almost (maiz, maceta, que haces).
> Is this typical for most of Spain? How about other Spanish speaking countries?


 
In Spain, except in some parts of Andalucía and Canarias, we pronounce c, z as you say.


----------



## Maya2805

Thank you!

Another question 

I have also noticed that "s" is pronounced there almost like english "sh" very often. Is that typical only to Cataluna?


----------



## Pucela88

the sounds -za, -zo, -zu, -ce, -ci are pronounced as a "th" in english except in Andalucía where you cannot notice the difference between  -s, -z and -c.
It is specific to Spain, you won't notice it in America.


----------



## diegodbs

Maya2805 said:
			
		

> Thank you!
> 
> Another question
> 
> I have also noticed that "s" is pronounced there almost like english "sh" very often. Is that typical only to Cataluna?


 
No, what you notice is that Spanish s (in Spain) is "apical" not "dorsal" as in many other languages. That`s why you think it is an sh.


----------



## Monnik

In Mexico (and LA in general) this distinction is not made.  The "s" and "c" sounds are just about identical in instances such as the ones you mentioned (maiz, maceta, hacer).

Have a great one!


----------



## Maya2805

diegodbs said:
			
		

> No, what you notice is that Spanish s (in Spain) is "apical" not "dorsal" as in many other languages. That`s why you think it is an sh.


 
Could you please collaborate on that? I'm not sure I understand the meaning of "apical" and "dorsal"
I do agree that (to me) it doesnt sound exactly like a "sh", but also not like a clear "s" so that was something closest I could find.

Also I have noticed that some people (south of Spain?) don't pronounce "s" sometimes (like "mas o menos", sounds almost like "ma or meno"...almost LOL)

Please forgive me all these question, but Spanish language is fascinating and I'm just a curious person 

Thanks a million guys!


----------



## Cracker Jack

The Andalucians do not pronounce the s at the end of the word.  Instead, it is aspirated like an ''h.''  This is due to Arabic influence in language.  The Arabs colonized Andalucia for nearly or over (???) 800 years.  That is why nearly all Spanish words beginning with al are most certainly of Arabic influence.

In the Age of Conquests, Spanish fleet would usually leave Sevilla because of it accessibility to the Atlantic by way of Guadalquivir.  Most of the frigates that sailed for conquest had crew mostly Andalucians.  Also in the route of the Galleon Trade from Spain to Latin America, most ships come from Andalucia with Andalusian crew.

That is why the influence of Andalusian Spanish is also seen in Latin America.  But through time, the language has evolved and some of the words in the vocabulary of Latin America have changed, including the voseo of Argentina and the disappearance of zeísmo in the regionn. This is also evident in Canarias.

And yes, Spanish is indeed fascinating.


----------



## Residente Calle 13

Cracker Jack said:
			
		

> The Andalucians do not pronounce the s at the end of the word.  Instead, it is aspirated like an ''h.''  This is due to Arabic influence in language.
> 
> That is why the influence of Andalusian Spanish is also seen in Latin America.  But through time, the language has evolved and some of the words in the vocabulary of Latin America have changed, including the voseo of Argentina and the disappearance of zeísmo in the regionn. This is also evident in Canarias.


Hi.

Some of what you say is disputed and speculative and some is, I think, not quite right or not quite accurate. But it would be even more off-topic to discuss it here. 

But in case anyone is interested, it works, roughly, like this:

In Old Spanish;

*caza *was written *caça *and pronounced *cat-sa*

*casa *was written *casa *and pronounced *ca-za *(with a *z* like in buzz)

*paso *was written *passo *and pronounced *pa-so*


Everywhere, the spelling of *passo *changed but the pronunciation remained the same.

Almost everywhere, *casa *changed from *ca-za *to *ca-sa* (more or less).

But *cat-sa (caza) *became *ca-tha *(like the *th *in thin) in NC Spain and in parts of Andalusia it became *ca-sa *and especially in Sevilla.


----------



## CheRie

Maya2805 said:
			
		

> Could you please collaborate on that? I'm not sure I understand the meaning of "apical" and "dorsal"
> I do agree that (to me) it doesnt sound exactly like a "sh", but also not like a clear "s" so that was something closest I could find.
> 
> Also I have noticed that some people (south of Spain?) don't pronounce "s" sometimes (like "mas o menos", sounds almost like "ma or meno"...almost LOL)
> 
> Please forgive me all these question, but Spanish language is fascinating and I'm just a curious person
> 
> Thanks a million guys!


 

"Apical" and "dorsal" refer to the parts of the tongue used to articulate the sound. Apical refers to the tip of the tongue and dorsal (dorsum) refers to the top or "face of the tongue." The difference in the pronunciation of /s/ has to do also with the amount and friction of the air expelled . These variations make regional and personal differences in the way sounds are produced and how those are perceived by the listener.


----------



## mibeke

cracker jack los andaluces no pronuncian la h de esa manera por la influencia árabe, y deberías saber q es solo un pequeño tanto por ciento las palabras de origen arabe mas del 90 por ciento procede del latin, la historia a veces no lo explica todo


----------



## Cracker Jack

mibeke said:
			
		

> cracker jack los andaluces no pronuncian la h de esa manera por la influencia árabe, y deberías saber q es solo un pequeño tanto por ciento las palabras de origen arabe mas del 90 por ciento procede del latin, la historia a veces no lo explica todo


 

Hola mibeke.  Me refiero a la ''s'' y no la ''h.''  Es la explicación que me han dicho mis profesores de idioma y en algunas conferencias de idiomas. No sé si hay otras razones pero que la influencia de los arabes forma parte de la manera de pronunciar la ''s.'' ¿Nos puedes proporcionar otras teorias para explicar este fenomeno para que se resuelve de una vez?

Sí, tienes razón, a unos 90 o más por ciento de las palabras españolas son de procidencia latina, pero lo que me refiero es palabras que comienzan en ''*al*'' ej. alcohol, algodon, alfombra, almohada, alcachofa, alfalfa, al-Andalus (el la que viene Andalucia), etc. 

Saludos.


----------



## lazarus1907

Pucela88 said:
			
		

> the sounds -za, -zo, -zu, -ce, -ci are pronounced as a "th" in english except in Andalucía where you cannot notice the difference between  -s, -z and -c.
> It is specific to Spain, you won't notice it in America.



JAJAJAJAJA

You're not the first one who has been told this about people from Andalucía (I am from Sevilla, Andalucía). It is not true; some people mix these sounds, some tend to replace all "s" by "z", some do it the other way round, some don't have this problem (I don't), and some just don't have a pattern. I have seen the shocked expression of many foreigners who believed this when they heard some people from my city "break" their "rules".

Nice try, though.


----------



## Residente Calle 13

lazarus1907 said:
			
		

> JAJAJAJAJA
> 
> You're not the first one who has been told this about people from Andalucía (I am from Sevilla, Andalucía). It is not true; some people mix these sounds, some tend to replace all "s" by "z", some do it the other way round, some don't have this problem (I don't), and some just don't have a pattern. I have seen the shocked expression of many foreigners who believed this when they heard some people from my city "break" their "rules".
> 
> Nice try, though.



Hi Lazarus,

I'm so glad you've said that! I have a question for you, then. I've read Sevilla described as an island of *seseo *(saying Suares for Suarez) in a sea of _*ceceo *_(saying Zuarez for Suarez). Is it true?


----------



## lazarus1907

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> Hi Lazarus,
> 
> I'm so glad you've said that! I have a question for you, then. I've read Sevilla described as an island of *seseo *(saying Suares for Suarez) in a sea of _*ceceo *_(saying Zuarez for Suarez). Is it true?



Mmmmm.... creo que es cierto. A cierto tipo de sevillanos les da por sesear ("via ponerme loh sapatoh") y a otros por cecear ("ezo ze hace zin ezfuerzo"), así que no acabo de creerme ninguna clasificación por completo  . Cada uno hace lo que le sale de las narices, vaya.

Si alguien no se lo cree, que vaya a Sevilla y yo le enseñaré personalmente excepciones vivientes en carne y hueso cuyas familias nunca han salido de Sevilla durante siglos.


----------



## Morgancin

No todos los andaluces ceceamos o seseamos. Y muchos pronunciamos la s al final de palabra.


----------



## lazarus1907

Eso es exactamente lo que acabo de decir: Yo soy sevillano y no seseo ni ceceo (y pronuncio la "s" a final de palabra dependiendo de con quién hable y dónde  ), pero conozco a otros que hacen una cosa, la otra, o ambas mezcladas de un modo completamente impredecible.

Hay de todo, ¡vaya!


----------



## Morgancin

lazarus1907 said:
			
		

> Eso es exactamente lo que acabo de decir: Yo soy sevillano y no seseo ni ceceo (y pronuncio la "s" a final de palabra dependiendo de con quién hable y dónde  ), pero conozco a otros que hacen una cosa, la otra, o ambas mezcladas de un modo completamente impredecible.
> 
> Hay de todo, ¡vaya!



De acuerdo totalmente contigo.

SALUDOS


----------



## lazarus1907

Gracias Morgancin,

Cambiando de tema: Los andaluces, curiosamente, no suelen cometer ni laísmos ni leísmos (que son normales en el resto de España), y nadie entiende exactamente por qué, sobre todo teniendo en cuenta el "español" tan malo que se habla y lo difícil que es usar estos pronombres correctamente   .


----------



## DaleC

Maya2805 said:
			
		

> Thank you!
> 
> Another question
> 
> I have also noticed that "s" is pronounced there almost like english "sh" very often. Is that typical only to Cataluna?



These pronunciations of 's' and 'z' have little to do with the region of Catalunya/Cataluña. They are the pronunciations of *Castilian *Spanish (as opposed to the Spanish of Andalucía). 

The historical language of Catalunya is Català (Catalan). The Castilian pronunciations of 's' and 'z' are not part of Catalan; instead, 's' is pronounced as in Portuguese or French, and 'z' similarly to 's', only voiced. However, the population of Catalunya includes many ethnic Spaniards (*ethnic*, not by nationality), some of them of Castilian origin; and pupils in the schools of Catalunya are required to use both Castilian and Catalan. Therefore, all young citizens today are highly bilingual. When an ethnic Catalan speaks Spanish, they will probably use the Castilian dialect because that is the school dialect. But many ethnic Spaniards in Catalunya and El País Vasco are of Andalusian origin instead.


----------



## San

Maya2805 said:
			
		

> Thank you!
> 
> Another question
> 
> I have also noticed that "s" is pronounced there almost like english "sh" very often. Is that typical only to Cataluna?


You can also hear the sound "sh" in some parts of Andalucía,  not for the letter "s" but for "ch".


----------



## San

DaleC said:
			
		

> These pronunciations of 's' and 'z' have little to do with the region of Catalunya/Cataluña. They are the pronunciations of *Castilian *Spanish (as opposed to the Spanish of Andalucía).


Bueno, como han comentado arriba el seseo no es universal en Andalucía, hay zonas que sesean y otras que no, y lo mismo con hablantes individuales. Por otro lado, hasta donde yo sé, prácticamente el 100% de los catalanes habla castellano, por tanto algo si que tiene que ver 

Por cierto, ¿ me lo parece a mí o muchos catalanes sesean cuando hablan en castellano ?



> The historical language of Catalunya is Català (Catalan). The Castilian pronunciations of 's' and 'z' are not part of Catalan; instead, 's' is pronounced as in Portuguese or French, and 'z' similarly to 's', only voiced. However, the population of Catalunya includes many ethnic Spaniards (*ethnic*, not by nationality), some of them of Castilian origin; and pupils in the schools of Catalunya are required to use both Castilian and Catalan. Therefore, all young citizens today are highly bilingual. When an ethnic Catalan speaks Spanish, they will probably use the Castilian dialect because that is the school dialect. But many ethnic Spaniards in Catalunya and El País Vasco are of Andalusian origin instead.


Umm, yo no diría que los catalanes usan el dialecto castellano, ellos tienen un acento muy propio de allí, como en otras regiones hay otros acentos y dialectos no castellanos: Galicia, Canarias, Andalucía, Asturias, etc. Por lo que respecta a la escuela pública creo que la enseñanza es en catalán desde hace ya muchos años, la razón por la que muchos catalanes hablan castellano es sencillamente porque es su lengua materna.


----------



## PABLO DE SOTO

El seseo en Sevilla capital ha sido un rasgo característico del habla sevillana,pero en los últimos años está retrocediendo en favor de la distinción,sobre todo en los jóvenes.
Es habitual que los abuelos sean seseantes,los padres vacilen entre uno y otro comportamiento y los hijos distingan "z" y "s".
En general,la tendencia es que los hablantes jóvenes más cultos distingan.
Esto es solo una generalidad y hay muchas excepciones o comportamientos de personas que sesean o distinguen según el momento y situación.

Poco a poco el seseo va quedando como propio de las clases populares,con excepción de los mayores de 60 años que mayoritariamente son seseantes.

A todo esto habría que añadir matizaciones de todo tipo,como el lugar o con quien se habla.
No es lo mismo cantar una sevillana que dar una conferencia.

Viví siete años en Sevilla


----------



## mibeke

es una pena que perdamos nuestros rasgos por la presión social, si un canario va ala tele puede conserva su acento y rasgos, un andaluz no, es injusto y nosotros somos algo cobardes...


----------



## PABLO DE SOTO

totalmente de acuerdo,mibeke.

Saludos desde Málaga


----------



## mibeke

mi Málaga, que ganas tengo de volve a casa, que la nieve de londres  me esta matando


----------



## Argónida

lazarus1907 said:


> Gracias Morgancin,
> 
> Cambiando de tema: Los andaluces, curiosamente, no suelen cometer ni laísmos ni leísmos (que son normales en el resto de España), y nadie entiende exactamente por qué, sobre todo teniendo en cuenta el "español" tan malo que se habla y lo difícil que es usar estos pronombres correctamente  .


 
¡Con lo "jartibles" que son los castellanos diciendo que ellos son los que hablan el mejor español...! Pero aquí nunca escucharán a nadie decir "*la* voy a pegar un tortazo" , "ese libro no *le* tengo"   o "¿qué me dijiste*s*?"  

Cierto que con el seseo, el ceceo o la distinción entre "s" y "z" no se puede generalizar en Andalucía, ni siquiera dentro de la misma ciudad, ¡ni de la misma persona!

 Respecto a la conversión de la "s" final en "h" aspirada, yo sí me atrevería a decir que es un rasgo generalizado en Andalucía, y además muy característico (creo que también de Extremadura y Murcia). Me sorprende que un malagueño pronuncie las eses a final de palabra.


----------



## rafufo

What I think is ludicrous is the silly (and offensive) myth that Spaniards lisp because a certain king ordered everyone to do it.  
The Castillian th sound is as much a lisp as the English th sound.  It was, unfortunately, lost in the Americas and in much of southern Spain b/c of the Arab influence.  
If Spaniards actually lisped, they would never be able to pronounce the letter s with so much strength (it actually resembles the English sh sound.


----------



## fizzy_soda

San said:


> You can also hear the sound "sh" in some parts of Andalucía, not for the letter "s" but for "ch".


 
Does this also depend on the speaker, or are there specific parts of Andalucía where the people tend to do it more than in others parts?  I only ask because I have yet to hear anybody from Andalucía talk like this; I *actually* hear my friend from Murcia say _musho _a lot (he lives close to the border between Mur and And), and María Isabel from Eurojunior (haha).


----------



## GiggLiden

Maya2805 said:


> Could you please *collaborate* on that? I'm not sure I understand the meaning of "apical" and "dorsal"
> I do agree that (to me) it doesnt sound exactly like a "sh", but also not like a clear "s" so that was something closest I could find.
> 
> Also I have noticed that some people (south of Spain?) don't pronounce "s" sometimes (like "mas o menos", sounds almost like "ma or meno"...almost LOL)
> 
> Please forgive me all these question, but Spanish language is fascinating and I'm just a curious person
> 
> Thanks a million guys!



I think you meant to use ... elaborate ... not *collaborate*


----------



## Argónida

fizzy_soda said:


> Does this also depend on the speaker, or are there specific parts of Andalucía where the people tend to do it more than in others parts? I only ask because I have yet to hear anybody from Andalucía talk like this; I *actually* hear my friend from Murcia say _musho _a lot (he lives close to the border between Mur and And), and María Isabel from Eurojunior (haha).


 
No se dá en toda Andalucía. Es más propio de la Andalucía occidental.


----------

