# Vahvero



## Maroseika

Terve.

Is it possible to explain from what parts the word _vahvero _(Cantharellus mushroom) consists? Is its etymology evident?

Also, if I may ask one more question: does Estonian kukeseen mean coloured?

Kiitos.


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## Hakro

Hei Maroseika,

Not all but most of the Finnish names of the mushrooms are quite new, usually less than a hundred years old. 

I'm not sure but I think that _vahvero_ was chosen because this mushroom is "vahva", not easily split – compared with _hapero_ (Russula) that is very brittle, frail, "hapera, hauras".

I couldn't find the meaning of Estonian "kuke".


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## Maroseika

Thank you, Hakro. 
But how came such a "mushroom" nation did not have names for the mushrooms in the earlier times?

By the way, could not _vahva _mean "caustic, pungent", as in some languages (like German, Polish and Kashubian) the name of this mushroom literally mean "pepper?


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## Hakro

"Mushroom nation"? Finland is a mushroom country but generally Finns are not mushroom eaters. 

_Vahva_ can also mean a spicy taste but I wouldn't say that _vahvero_ is spicy. On the other hand, similar mushrooms growing in different countries can have a different taste. In the UK _Cantharellus_ is considered as a poisonous mushroom, if I remember correctly.


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## Gavril

Hi Maroseika,



Maroseika said:


> Is it possible to explain from what parts the word _vahvero (Cantharellus mushroom) _consists? Is its etymology evident?


Here's the explanation of _vahvero_ from Häkkinen's Nykysuomen etymologinen sanakirja:



> Pohjois-Karjalassa ja Laatokan seuduilla tunnettu sienen nimitys _vahveroinen_ viittaa kansankielessä rouskuihin, ensisijaisesti karvarouskuun. Suomen sanan tarkka vastine on karjalan _vahveroine_, mutta tämän rinnalla esiintyy myös _vahoi, vahvoi, vahvoine_. Samantapaisia rouskuun nimityksiä on myös muissa lähisukukielissä, esim. lyydin _vahattšu_ tai _vahalauk_, vepsän _bahalouk_ ja eteläviron _vahelik_. Variaation vuoksi on vaikea sanoa, onko nimet muodostettu substantiivista _vaha_ vai ajektiivista _vahva_. Molempia voidaan perustella merkityksen kannalta: rouskun rakenne on vahamaisen lohkeava, ja maku on kirpeän vahva. Mahdollisesti sanat ovat kansankielessäkin sekaantuneet keskenään.



"The mushroom name _vahveroinen_, known in North Karelia and the Ladoga regions, refers in popular language to the milk cap mushroom [_lactarius_], primarily to the woolly milk cap. Karelian _vahveroine_ corresponds precisely to the Finnish word, but besides _vahveroine_ there are also the forms _vahoi, vahvoi, vahvoine_. Similar terms for the milk cap exist in other closely related languages -- for example, Ludian _vahattšu_ or _vahalauk_, Veps _bahalouk_ and South Estonian _vahelik_. Because of this variation, it is difficult to say whether the names were formed from the noun *vaha* ["wax"] or the adjective *vahva*. Both of these can be argued for semantically: the milk cap can be split up into pieces like wax, and its taste is pungently strong. It is possible that the two words have become conflated with one another in popular speech."

(Häkkinen 1427; my translation)



> Also, if I may ask one more question: does Estonian kukeseen mean coloured?



The -_seen _in _kukeseen_ means "mushroom" (cf. Finnish _sieni_ "mushroom"). As for _kuke_-, it looks as though it means "cock, rooster" -- compare _kukelaul_ ("the crowing of a rooster", literally "rooster song") -- but I'm not sure exactly why the mushroom is called that. Maybe because of the color?

(By the way, despite Estonian being very close to Finnish, I think Estonian-related questions should go in a separate forum.)


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## Maroseika

Gavril said:


> "The mushroom name _vahveroinen_, known in North Karelia and the Ladoga regions, refers in popular language to the milk cap mushroom [_lactarius_], primarily to the woolly milk cap. Karelian _vahveroine_ corresponds precisely to the Finnish word, but besides _vahveroine_ there are also the forms _vahoi, vahvoi, vahvoine_. Similar terms for the milk cap exist in other closely related languages -- for example, Ludian _vahattšu_ or _vahalauk_, Veps _bahalouk_ and South Estonian _vahelik_. Because of this variation, it is difficult to say whether the names were formed from the noun *vaha* ["wax"] or the adjective *vahva*. Both of these can be argued for semantically: the milk cap can be split up into pieces like wax, and its taste is pungently strong. It is possible that the two words have become conflated with one another in popular speech."


Thank you very much, Gavrila, for the brilliant citation.



> The -_seen _in _kukeseen_ means "mushroom" (cf. Finnish _sieni_ "mushroom"). As for _kuke_-, it looks as though it means "cock, rooster" -- compare _kukelaul_ ("the crowing of a rooster", literally "rooster song") -- but I'm not sure exactly why the mushroom is called that. Maybe because of the color?


Interestingly, in Lettish this mushroom is called _gailene_, probably also meaning cock. Maybe because it resembles a cock's comb. Loaning in either direction is very possible.



> (By the way, despite Estonian being very close to Finnish, I think Estonian-related questions should go in a separate forum.)


I think you are right, just thought I might recieve the answer about Estonian here faster than in other forums. Maybe I ought to place it at the "All languages".


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## Maroseika

Hakro said:


> "Mushroom nation"? Finland is a mushroom country but generally Finns are not mushroom eaters.


Really? Just did not know, sorry. 



> _Vahva_ can also mean a spicy taste but I wouldn't say that _vahvero_ is spicy. On the other hand, similar mushrooms growing in different countries can have a different taste. In the UK _Cantharellus_ is considered as a poisonous mushroom, if I remember correctly.


Actually this mushroom is really bitter (if not spicy) when raw, so this propeerty might motivate its names in some languages (like German _Pfifferling_, Polish _pieprznik _or Kashubian _peperlëszka_). 
So the second explanation of Häkkinen is quite realistic.


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