# to come across a vacuum



## litchi

Hello! what's the meaning of that sentence?

"His voice came across a vacuum" (the person listening to him is quite tired...)

Thanks!


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## jierbe31

Could it be Il resta _sans voix_ ?


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## litchi

no because he's actually speaking to the person who is very tired.


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## sxb85

across a vacuum cleaner? 

sorry, well, I suppose it came in a period of silence? (though, I'm a French guy, it's only a shrewd idea)


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## litchi

In fact, i don't think the person who is speaking has any problem for doing it, I think it's more the girl who is listening to him who has difficulties focusing what he's saying because she's very tired.

Hum...not sure I'm clear.


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## jierbe31

Now then, how about *Sa voix ne rencontra aucun écho chez* *elle*. ?


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## litchi

Mmm I must give you more details about the context:

-She's very tired but doesn't want to face it.
-He tells her she'd better sleep because tomorrow will be a hard and long day.
-"His voice came across a vacuum. Her mind seemed to be bubble-wrapped with fatigue."
-And a second later she's asleep.

It's maybe easier to catch the meaning...but I can't find any image in french which could convey this...


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## JeanDeSponde

_Sa voix lui sembla venir de très loin_ ?


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## litchi

mm yes, it would work. But I still think this vaccum-comparison sounds strange. Is that a common expression?


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## mally pense

It's quite possibly unique to this particular piece of text, so there are no precedents or interpeting or translating it. Your guess is probably as good as anyone's. In my opinion.


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## P1ofTiffielle

I think the metaphor of the vaccum is like a distant background noise. The girl doesn't understand/ isn't really listening to what the man is saying. The sound is just a constant sucking sound


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## jierbe31

My last attempt *Sa voix la fit tomber en léthargie*.
Or is it _too much_?


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## mally pense

How can one say it's too much? The original text is open to interpretation because it has no pre-existing meaning as far as I can see. It means exactly what the author intends it to mean and that to me is not clear. Possibly it's that thing when you are very very very tired and falling asleep listening to the radio, and... I don't know if this is the same for anyone else, but for me, there's a moment or two where the speech or music becomes a little strange. I suppose 'coming across a vacuum' may be an attempt to describe this, because I certainly can't find words myself to describe it.


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## litchi

Thanks everybody, all you said was very helpful. I think I'll keep "sa voix lui sembla venir de très loin"...


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## Kelly B

My impression is that a vacuum here is empty space (_le néant, _I think_)_. Of course sound doesn't travel through that at all... I think your translation makes sense.


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## mally pense

It works for me too.


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## lapsangsouchong

You could keep the mental image that's in the original:

_Sa voix lui sembla traverser un _(_le_?) _vide_ / _venir d'à travers un vide_.   

Cheers!


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## calembourde

I have the impression that she was so tired that anything else people were saying could not reach her (they could not travel across the vacuum) but when somebody suggested sleep, that message got through, and she promptly obeyed.  But this would be more likely if it were 'his voice came across *the* background. I don't know whether this is what the author intended, maybe I'm just reading too much into it.


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## mally pense

I always worry about re-interpreting rather than just translating. If something very close to the original can be used and does work, that has to be preferable as it leaves the interpretation again to the reader, not to the translator. Hence I would go with lapsangsouchong's suggestion provided it sounds OK in French.


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## Moon Palace

My two cents:

Sa voix semblait sortie de nulle part. 
Sa voix semblait provenir du néant. 
C'était comme si le vide lui renvoyait l'écho lointain de sa voix.

(the latter one may well be too much indeed, but it keeps the metaphor of the vacuum even better). 
Hope it helps.


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## mdmullins

It sounds to me like the same use of the word as in the phrase, 'across/in the vacuum of space.' (literally or figuratively) i.e. It has a dull, empty quality, or perhaps distance; thus:'Her voice came to me as if through a vast emptiness.'​However you can best express this idea in French is, I bet, close to what the author intended.

MDMullins


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## mally pense

If we're taking bets, my money is on however you can best express "His voice came across a vacuum" in French as being even closer to what the author intended.


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## mdmullins

mally pense said:


> If we're taking bets, my money is on however you can best express "His voice came across a vacuum" in French as being even closer to what the author intended.



Yes, but from reading the thread, 'vacuum' doesn't seem to have this alternate connotation in French. I was merely trying to rephrase it in the hopes that someone would catch onto a better French equivalent. 

At that, I would have to say that the author's intention is not unclear. I have heard this expression used, or at least _seen_ it used. What's unclear is how to get it into French.


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## mally pense

Fair enough md. Sorry for my foolery.


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## litchi

Mally pense, I agree with you when you say it would be better to keep the image in order to be closer to the original sentence *but* I don't think Moon palace's propositions would fit here. 

"Sa voix semblait sortie de nulle part. 
Sa voix semblait provenir du néant. "

These two sentences don't have the same meaning that the original.

"C'était comme si le vide lui renvoyait l'écho lointain de sa voix."

It's better but I think that, since this image is not an idiom in French and since there is no such emptiness or "vide" around them, readers won't really understand it's only a comparison.


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## Cath.S.

_Sa voix semblait provenir du fin fond de l'espace_ ?​


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## litchi

egueule said:


> _Sa voix semblait provenir du fin fond de l'espace_ ?​


Même remarque que pour Moon palace, quel espace? ils sont sur terre! 

Je trouve qu'on ne comprend pas du tout, par cette image, que la fille est morte de fatigue et qu'en conséquence les bruit qui l'entourent paraissent étouffés.


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## Cath.S.

> ils sont sur terre!


Tu m'en diras tant ! 
Sérieusement c'est pourquoi on écrit _semblait_...

Au départ, la traduction que je trouvais la plus convaincante était celle de JeanDeSponde, et je m'en suis largement inspirée pour proposer la mienne, que je remets donc dans ma poche avec mon mouchoir par dessus.


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## calembourde

litchi said:


> "Sa voix semblait sortie de nulle part.
> Sa voix semblait provenir du néant. "
> 
> These two sentences don't have the same meaning that the original.



Could it be because these talk about his voice coming _from_ a vacuum rather than _through_ it? Coming from nowhere is not the same as coming through a vacuum or (if it's the intended meaning) from far away. Is there anything wrong with something like:

_Sa voix semblait me parvenir à travers d'un vide
Sa voix semblait avoir parcouru un vide_


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## litchi

calembourde said:


> Could it be because these talk about his voice coming _from_ a vacuum rather than _through_ it? Coming from nowhere is not the same as coming through a vacuum or (if it's the intended meaning) from far away.


 
exactly.



calembourde said:


> Is there anything wrong with something like:
> 
> _Sa voix semblait me parvenir à travers d'un vide_
> _Sa voix semblait avoir parcouru un vide_


 
That's the general meaning but to me it really sounds English...


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## mally pense

litchi said:


> Mally pense, I agree with you when you say it would be better to keep the image in order to be closer to the original sentence *but* I don't think Moon palace's propositions would fit here.
> ...


 
I know it's not your intention to imply it, but I do feel that I should point out that I haven't made any comment on Moon Palace's suggestions, for or against.

However, I think the time has come to make a cutting assessment of the problem here. We're all struggling to find something that works in French for SOMETHING THAT DOESN'T REALLY WORK IN ENGLISH. _(At least based on the text provided)._

Sorry to be so brutal, but I think the evidence is here aplenty that this is true. Thank goodness we're not also discussing "Her mind seemed to be bubble-wrapped with fatigue" because frankly I think we'd be having the same problems with that.

I think the best solution is to leave the translation as direct as possible. If it doesn't work in English, why should the translator have the responsibility of making it work in French?

Apologies again for my directness, but it seems a lot of people's time is being taken up here trying to fix the symptoms not the cause. In retrospect I think mdmullins was right in trying to 'fix' the source, even though I didn't appreciate it at the time.


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## litchi

So you have a suggestion for "Her mind seemed to be bubble-wrapped with fatigue" then ?

Just kidding


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## mdmullins

Very interesting thread.  Just to stir the pot a little more (and then I'll shut up)... 

A google search for variations on this phrase turned up:_ '“Mara?” His voice sounded distant, as if through a vacuum. '_​This one comes from here: http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/27398119/r27402326/
...and I think best exemplifies what we're trying to get at. For the record, this is a not-uncommon way of expressing this idea, at least in literary terms. That, or my lazy AE is haunting me._'Such crimes do not spring from a vacuum*.*_'​...from here: http://www.flex.com/~jai/articles/texaskill.html, which has a very different connotation, meaning 'they don't [come from / spring out of] nowhere.'

While a search for simply 'across a vacuum' reveals (mostly?) only literal, scientific instances of the phrase. (i.e. an actual physical vacuum)

Of all the French examples given, I vote for JeanDeSponde's :*Sa voix lui sembla venir de très loin*​Whatever the answer, I appreciate the chance to watch people try to frenchify it. It's all part of the learning process. (I'm also pretty sure it has nothing to do with bubble-wrap. )

And now I'll be quiet and leave the cogitating to the real experts.

MDMullins


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## Moon Palace

> "Sa voix semblait sortie de nulle part.
> Sa voix semblait provenir du néant. "
> 
> These two sentences don't have the same meaning that the original.




I agree with Mallypense, and I also think that rather than try to defend a suggestion, I believe too that there are a few things about translation that ought to be reasserted: on the one hand, it may be worthy to stick to the original wording, but on the other hand, the concept at stake has got priority over the wording. Here we are in front of a strange wording, and the idea prevails: he has trouble identifying her voice because he is so tired. Hence the idea of 'nulle part'. It does not mean he is an ET, it means he is unable at first to identify clearly where the person is, and maybe even who this person is. So even though it may not keep the metaphor of the void whose purpose is to hint at his inability to deal with anything intellectually, it does provide the idea of lack of clarity and inability to identify. 



> "C'était comme si le vide lui renvoyait l'écho lointain de sa voix."
> 
> It's better but I think that, since this image is not an idiom in French and since there is no such emptiness or "vide" around them, readers won't really understand it's only a comparison.


It is a bit more complicated than just a matter of idiom to me. Besides, I don't quite get what is an idiom for you, since this is proper French but literary register I grant it. 
Yet, if we consider the narrator is omniscient or that the narrator is telling the story from the man's viewpoint, which I believe is the case here, readers will well understand that the void alluded to here is inside his mind, and this is the reason why he has trouble hearing her voice. Besides, if he were so tired and yet still able to see clearly the people around him, he would equally well hear them. To me, this was in accordance with the inner perception the narrator gives of the situation. He hardly has any perception of people's presence around him, he may see them as if they were statues, and does not react to their words which he receives a few minutes after they have been uttered. 

_



			Sa voix semblait me parvenir à travers d'un vide
Sa voix semblait avoir parcouru un vide
		
Click to expand...

_Sorry Calembourde, but here this is clearly not proper French: le vide ne peut être traversé car il ne comporte aucun élément. De même il n'est pas mesurable ni en distance ni en poids. 

JeandeSponde's suggestion is maybe the more neutral and the more befitting indeed. Sorry for this long shot, just felt the need to explain my view that had been debated.


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## Cath.S.

Moon Palace said:
			
		

> readers will well understand that the void alluded to here is inside his mind, and this is the reason why he has trouble hearing her voice.


Ce n'est pas ça du tout, Moon Palace.
Je résume :
1. la voix est celle de l'homme
2.  la fille est fatiguée et comme le disait si bien (trop ben ?) JDS, la voix de l'homme *semble lui parvenir de très loin*.


J'ai l'impression que sur ce fil on cherche (involontairement) midi à quatorze heures.


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## litchi

Tu es un peu dur avec moon palace Egueule...alors qu'il prend du temps pour répondre, de façon toute gratuite, à ma question. 

"Sa voix semblait sortie de nulle part. 
Sa voix semblait provenir du néant. "

J'entends bien ton argumentation moon palace mais je pense tout de même que la première lecture de ces phrases donnent un autre sens au texte car "sortir de nulle part" ou "provenir du néant" sont, selon moi, des expressions idiomatiques (voilà ce que j'entends par idiomatique) pour signifier que la personne qui parle n'est pas visible à celle qui l'entends.

Quote:
"C'était comme si le vide lui renvoyait l'écho lointain de sa voix."

Je trouve ça pas mal mais c'est "*le *vide" qui me tracasse car il semble renvoyer à quelque chose (comme au vide d'une crevasse par ex...) qui n'est pas là.

En bref, nous sommes tous d'accord pour dire que c'est la proposition de JeandeSponde qui est la meilleure. 

(Même si ça reste intéressant de discuter sur les raisons pour lesquels nous pensons les autres moins bonnes...)


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## Cath.S.

> Tu es un peu dur avec moon palace Egueule...


J'ai accusé_ tout le monde_ de chercher midi à quatorze heures sur ce fil. 


> En bref, nous sommes tous d'accord pour dire que c'est la proposition de JeandeSponde qui est la meilleure.


Youpiiiiiiiii !


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## verbivore

Cette phrase est tellement nébuleuse, qu'on peut le traduire en n'importe lequel nombre de façons. Néanmoins, je vous en propose une autre: En son écouteur, sa voix ne s'est rien retrouvé.


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## Moon Palace

egueule said:


> Ce n'est pas ça du tout, Moon Palace.
> Je résume :
> 1. la voix est celle de l'homme
> 2.  la fille est fatiguée et comme le disait si bien (trop ben ?) JDS, la voix de l'homme *semble lui parvenir de très loin*.
> J'ai l'impression que sur ce fil on cherche (involontairement) midi à quatorze heures.


J'ai inversé les pronoms personnels, pardon.  Mais je voulais dire que cette impression de lointain quand on est fatigué est créée par un mur d'isolation phonique que notre cerveau fabrique, c'est ce que je signifie en disant 'the void is in _her_ mind'. 
Ma formulation tentait seulement de conserver l'idée de vide. Mais je redis ma participation au plébiscite de l'illustre JdS (illustre au moins à en juger par le nombre de fois où sa suggestion aura été citée et applaudie ici - c'était peut-être le but du fil en fait, non? )


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