# senior surgical resident



## majuk

Witam,

Tłumaczę książkę z angielskiego, rzecz dzieje się w szpitalu, jest więc bardzo dużo słownictwa medycznego. Pewna pani jest ,,senior surgical resident". Patrzyłam w wikipedii, ale nie ma odpowiedniego hasła po polsku, a nie znam się  szczególnie na szpitalnych funkcjach, potrzebuję więc konkretnej nazwy po polsku, a nie tylko informacji, czym się taki ktoś zajmuje. Czy ktoś może wie?

Z góry dziękuję


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## majlo

Nie podałaś kontekstu. Czy mogłabyś go podać? Najlepiej kilka zdań poprzedzających to, w którym jest to wyrażenie, i kilka po nim. I gdzie dzieje się akcja tej książki? W innym przypadku ciężko będzie pomóc.

P.S. Bez kontekstu strzelam, że najbliższym odpowiednikiem (bo dokładnego ekwiwalentu - jestem prawie pewny - nie znajdziesz) będzie stażysta albo starszy asystent.


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## BezierCurve

To (według mojego prostego rozumowania) więcej niż student (praktykant), a mniej, niż lekarz specjalista... Może po prostu stażysta (na oddziale chirurgii)?


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## majuk

Witam,
chyba jednak nie stażysta...

Oto kilka zdań dookoła:
"She was beloved by nurses, widely respected by her Saudi and Western colleagues, and
clearly held in awe by the sprawling sandaled troops of male Saudi
surgeons (many of whom were military officers in the Saudi Arabian
National Guard) whom she trained in her role as senior surgical
resident. They followed her on rounds very much like chicks
following a mother hen."


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## majuk

Wysłało mi się zanim skończyłam pisać. Książka pisana jest po angielsku, przez Pakistankę wychowaną w Anglii i nie mówiącą po arabsku. Czyli myślę, że realia anglosaskie będą pasować, zwłaszcza biorąc pod uwagę ilość zachodnich pracowników w tym szpitalu - więc pewnie "obowiązujący" język to angielski. Autorka w każdym razie po arabsku nie mówi, więc musi w pracy posługiwać się angielskim.

Wielkie dzięki


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## radosna

Hi everyone!

My Polish is not good enough to help find the Polish term for this, but I can at least explain the term from the English side so that you can find the most accurate equivalent on the Polish side. I'll credit wikipedia, having double-checked it for confirmation of my own understanding.

In the medical field, "residency" (serving as a "resident") means that you already hold a medical degree and are now in your graduate medical studies.  Residency forms the bulk of one's graduate work in the medical field.  Many hours are spent in a medical facility working under the supervision of more advanced physicians, surgeons, etc. "Internship" (which I'm guessing stażysta would be closer to) comes before your residency. It is less advanced. 

"Senior" in this case does not refer to one's age, but to one who is more advanced and usually carries more authority.  

So "senior surgical resident" refers to one who is working in a medical facility (most likely, hospital) under the supervision of a more experienced surgeon. He/she has already completed an internship, possesses a degree in medicine, and is now pursuing a specialized advanced degree to become a certified surgeon. He/she is in the final year(s) of residency.

Sometimes, one or a few other senior residents are chosen and appointed to help oversee other residents and/or interns who are not as advanced in their studies/knowledge.  I think we can deduce from the excerpt you included, that this honor was bestowed upon the "senior surgical resident" in question. 

I hope this helps you on your way to finding a suitable equivalent in Polish!  

Sincerely,
radosna


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## Ben Jamin

Do niedawna "resident" odpowiadał polskiemu lekarzowi bez specjalizacji. Senior to starszy lekarz bez specjalizacji. Zadzwoń do szpitala i zapytaj się jak to się nazywa, nie zdawaj się na tych co nie wiedzą a zgadują.


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## radosna

I agree with Ben Jamin that it would be best to contact someone in the medical field for the technical word in Polish because this is so specialized.  I would suggest asking to speak with someone beyond just the receptionist for the sake of accuracy.

One point of contention, however.  As I'm sure you know, you need to translate the words from their original meaning/language/context -- from English to Polish.  So while Ben Jamin has a good point in saying that "resident" in Polish implies a a doctor without a specialization and a "senior" denotes a doctor without a specialization, the way in which it is used and put together in English, "senior surgical resident" implies that there is very clearly a specialization: surgery.  In the UK as well as the States and most of the English-speaking world, surgery is considered a specialization.


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## Ben Jamin

For the sake of clarity: "lekarz bez specjalizacji" does not mean "a doctor without specialization". In Polish "specjalizacja" means a "diploma of specialist" obtained by fulfilling a prescribed period of training under supervision (residency) and passing an examination. In some cases the candidates have to write a thesis. Until recently there were two grades of "specjalizacja" in Poland (I am not sure if it is still so). In the hospitals in Poland there are no "general practitioners" or doctors without "specialization", everyone works only in one specified field of medicine (contrary to US).

He specializes in surgery= on pracuje na chirurgii, or on robi specjalizację z chirurugii
On ma specjalizację z chirurgii = he is a certified specialist surgeon


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## majlo

BenJamin, as far as I know the terminology largely depends on the given hospital. At least I'm so told by a friend of mine who's a surgeon. He says the term "rezydent" can also be used in Polish (he said that's what he actually is right now). I'd go for something like "(starszy) rezydent/asystent".


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## majuk

Thanks a lot to everybody! I was hoping there will be some Polish speaking phisicians in this forum If you say, majlo, that starszy asystent would be good, it would be nice. I'll try to check it again with some polish doctors... In general the fonctions are the most difficult to translate... But I didn't know it might differ also from hospital to hospital in one country...

Just to be sure: is your friend, mailo, making now his specialisation? So starszy rezydent/asystent is a person finishing specialisation?

In any case, thank you all again. It was really helpfull.


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## radosna

Majuk,

Majlo's suggestion "starszy rezydent/asystent" seems to make a lot of sense. But perhaps "surgical" should be specified as well since that was after all, an essential component of the original term you began with.  Perhaps a combination of Ben Jamin & Majuk's replies would be something worth considering?

"starszy rezydent/asystent na chirurgii"?  

I don't think I have anything else to say that would be of aid, so I will just wish you the best as you continue your valiant efforts in translating this book!


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## majlo

Majuk, you have to remember that what a _resident _does in the UK or the US doesn't necessarily have to correspond to what a _rezydent _does in Poland, and most likely will not.

No, my friend hasn't started his specialty yet, but says he's about to.

By the way, radosna's proposition might come across as a bit informal. If that's to be avoided, I'd consider inserting "oddziale" after _na_​.


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## Ben Jamin

Re: My post of tuesday 28. of August:
According to Wikipedia there is now only one specialization grade for doctors in Poland.


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## kknd

Ben Jamin said:


> For the sake of clarity: "lekarz bez specjalizacji" does not mean "a doctor without specialization". In Polish "specjalizacja" means a "diploma of specialist" obtained by fulfilling a prescribed period of training under supervision (residency) and passing an examination. In some cases the candidates have to write a thesis. Until recently there were two grades of "specjalizacja" in Poland (I am not sure if it is still so). In the hospitals in Poland there are no "general practitioners" or doctors without "specialization", everyone works only in one specified field of medicine (contrary to US).
> 
> He specializes in surgery= on pracuje na chirurgii, or on robi specjalizację z chirurugii
> On ma specjalizację z chirurgii = he is a certified specialist surgeon


as for grades of specialization—there is only one at the moment to acquire; as for doctors without specialization—there are such doctors but at the moment they have to work under supervision of a doctor with specialization in the field they are practicing and as far as i understood they can do some minor practice nevertheless; there are some plans to change this… anybody having full information about the topic?


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## Ben Jamin

kknd said:


> ... as for doctors without specialization—there are such doctors but at the moment they have to work under supervision of a doctor with specialization in the field they are practicing ...


And this corresponds to American "resident doctor".


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## LilianaB

majuk said:


> Witam,
> chyba jednak nie stażysta...
> 
> Oto kilka zdań dookoła:
> "She was beloved by nurses, widely respected by her Saudi and Western colleagues, and
> clearly held in awe by the sprawling sandaled troops of male Saudi
> surgeons (many of whom were military officers in the Saudi Arabian
> National Guard) whom she trained in her role as senior surgical
> resident. They followed her on rounds very much like chicks
> following a mother hen."


Hi, if this is a book translation, not a diploma or a CV, you have to take into consideration the whole sentence and what it means in the context of the book. _With whom she trained in her role as a senior surgical resident_. I would first check what people think about this sentence in the English Only forum. No one can really train to be a resident, unless the author meant that she trained to be a surgeon. Or did she mean military training? I doubt it.  In this case I would translate the sentence as:  _Ktorzy przyuczali ja do zawodu chirurga_, unless surgeon can mean also a different specialization in BE, especially in the country where the story takes place. I would definitley use: ktorzy (meaning the male Saudi surgeons) przyuczli ja, or ktorzy pracowali razem z nia podczas jej starzu, rezydentury w szpitalu X.


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## Ben Jamin

LilianaB said:


> Hi, if this is a book translation, not a diploma or a CV, you have to take into consideration the whole sentence and what it means in the context of the book. _With whom she trained in her role as a senior surgical resident_. I would first check what people think about this sentence in the English Only forum. No one can really train to be a resident, unless the author meant that she trained to be a surgeon. Or did she mean military training? I doubt it.  In this case I would translate the sentence as:  _Ktorzy przyuczali ja do zawodu chirurga_, unless surgeon can mean also a different specialization in BE, especially in the country where the story takes place. I would definitley use: ktorzy (meaning the male Saudi surgeons) przyuczli ja, or ktorzy pracowali razem z nia podczas jej starzu, rezydentury w szpitalu X.



 You have misunderstod the English original: "and clearly held in awe by the sprawling sandaled troops of male Saudi  surgeons (many of whom were military officers in the Saudi Arabian National Guard) whom she trained in her role as senior surgical resident."
Shortened and stripped of unnecessary elements the sentences skeleton is: [she was] held in awe by the male Saudi  surgeons whom she trained in her role as senior surgical resident. 
She trained the male Saudi surgeons, but she did not train them in her role as residents (i.e. to become residents), but she trained them to be better surgeons, being at the same time a senior surgical resident. 
The problem in the sentence is "whom she trained in her role as senior surgical resident" which is ambiguous, but the other interpretation:  "she trained them to be surgical residents like herself" is rather nonsensical.


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## LilianaB

Ok, thank you. It would make more sense with whom she trained, but Ok. I somehow took it for _with whom she trained_. So, she as a resident trained surgeons? I think it will be really wise to post this sentence in the English Only forum and find out what it means. Wouldn't it be strange that a resident be training surgeons? Anyhow, if she was training the male Saudi surgeons, it should be translated, in my opinion,as something like: Których szkoliła jako starszy rezydent (chirurgii?)  This is really just the part of the sentence which uses the term the OP asked about. I always thought that residents were receiving training themselves.

It would be good to know if she was a senior surgical resident in a hospital in a different country, England for example, who was sent to Saudi Arabia to help in some military hospitals and share her experience from her original hospital where she was a senior resident with them.This might make sense. If she were a resident in a Saudi military hospital it would be her receiving the training.


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## Ben Jamin

Note that there is no "*with* whom she trained" in the original text. The original text is not quite good, as it can be interpreted in at least two possible ways, but some understanding of how a hospital and doctors function will help to choose the correct interpretation. 
The sentence translated to Polish will be much more unambiguous "... których szkoliła jako starszy asystent na chirurgii ... ", and not “…których szkoliła na starszych asystentów na chirurgii …”.
The translation would be, however, even better if we chose the following wording: "... których szkoliła *będąc starszym asystentem* na chirurgii ... ".


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## LilianaB

Do you think it might be a typo, or misprint? Can a senior resident train surgeons? Would future surgeons be meant? Male non-senior residents to become surgeons? Or, were they already surgeons?


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## majlo

I think even interns could train surgeons. It just depends on the circumstances.


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## radosna

I don't think it's a typo. Ben Jamin has a point in feeling that it is ambiguously-written.  It's written utilizing the past tense and is not explicit in terms of specifying when things took place, and their temporal relationship to one another (chronology).  However, there is a logical, progressive, chronological order implied -- but again, this might be dependent on one's knowledge of the medical world in the country in which the book takes place.  To me, it's quite clearly implied that she trained them in the past. They're surgeons now but some time ago, she was the one -- in her role as a senior surgical resident -- who was appointed to train them -- less experienced residents and/or interns at the time. (Refer back to my older post which explained that sometimes senior residents are chosen and appointed to train other residents and/or interns who are not as far along in their studies nor experience).


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## LilianaB

Hi, I think this article slightly clarified the situation in Saudi Arabia's medicine and training of medical personnel. 

http://archsurg.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=390549


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