# cultural threads in 2 languages



## TimeHP

Hi.
Being obliged to use English in cultural discussions is an obvious disadvantage for non native speakers.
It would be fair having messages in 2 different languages. 
It would be nice for people who can't speak English well, sending their messages in their native tongue and having the messages correctly translated into English...
Thank you.

Ciao.
Essere obbligati a usare l'Inglese nelle discussioni culturali è un ovvio svantaggio per i non nativi.
Sarebbe giusto avere messaggi in 2 lingue diverse.
Sarebbe giusto per le persone che non padroneggiano l'Inglese, inviare messaggi nella propria lingua e poter contare su una corretta traduzione in Inglese...   
Grazie.


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## Etcetera

What about those whose native language isn't Italian, Spanish or French?
I find it really convenient that most discussions in the CD Forum are in English. English is the language most of us understand more or less perfectly. When I come over a post in Spanish, I feel a bit clueless, because I don't understand Spanish that well. 
But, in my opinion, it would be really nice if people who don't speak English well write their posts in both their mother tongue and English.


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## TimeHP

Yes, Etcetera.
It would be wonderful if everyone could write a message in her/his native language and it would be of great help for learning languages. 

Some people speak and understand English very well. 
But what about those who can't express themselves in English or in Spanish? 
They quite always give up the idea of writing...
It's a loss for everyone.
Ciao
--------------------------------------
Sì, Etcetera.
Sarebbe meraviglioso se tutti potessero scrivere nella propria lingua e sarebbe di grande aiuto nello studio delle lingue. 

Alcune persone parlano e capiscono l'Inglese molto bene.
Ma quelli che non riescono a esprimersi in Inglese o in Spagnolo?
Quasi sempre rinunciano a scrivere.
Ed è una perdita per tutti.
Ciao.


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## belén

Hello TimeHP,

Well, first of all, English is not the compulsory language in the Culture Discussions forums, it may be the most convenient, as it is the common international language, and that's why most of the foreros posting there do it so in English. But if you want to post in Italian, Spanish or Danish, you are very welcome to do so.

Second, as for your proposal of 





> It would be nice for people who can't speak English well, sending their messages in their native tongue and *having the messages correctly translated into English*...



I would like to hear your suggestions on how this would happen. Would we have a group of volunteers translating each post? How would we do this?

Threads are very dinamic and the whole point of them is being instantaneously posted, so I believe that having them translated inmediately, unless the poster does it himself, is not really feasible.

Best regards,

Belén


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## TimeHP

> I would like to hear your suggestions on how this would happen. Would we have a group of volunteers translating each post? How would we do this?


 
Yes, I understand. It's not easy. 
But we are already doing this. We translate some passages in French, Italian, Spanish, etc. in other fora.
We could find a way.
Maybe one could post in his/her language and asking 'please, could someone translate this into English for me?'


Ciao


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## natasha2000

TimeHP said:


> Yes, I understand. It's not easy.
> But we are already doing this. We translate some passages in French, Italian, Spanish, etc. in other fora.
> We could find a way.
> Maybe one could post in his/her language and asking 'please, could someone translate this into English for me?'
> 
> 
> Ciao


 
This is very laborious, tiresome, boring and not productive at all. The whole point of CD is to discuss cultural issues, and not to translate. If I were required to write the same thing in two languages, I would stop posting, and I am sure there are a lot of people here like me. Besides, as Etcetera said, what about people whose mother tongue is not Spanish, French or  Italian? What do you get if I write my post in Serbian? There are only few Serbians in this forum, and I am sure they don't mind writing and reading in English. 
Some time ago, there was a suggestion in Slavic forum to write posts in English and in your mother tongue, so we can all learn about simlarities and differences of our Slavic languages. The suggestion was accepted with delight and there is where it stayed. Only some posts in that thread are written in two languages. People simply do not have time nor wish to do a double work. And you are forgetting the fact that it is not only to write in two languages, it is to translate from one language to other, and not all of us have the talent for translating, for some people this can be really a problem. 

Life is tough, and you can't please everyone. Your suggestion is nice, but I am afraid, it is not feasible.

Besides, I think that participating in CD forum for someone who is not able to express themself in English would be a good exercise. By reading, then writing some short sentences, and then each time longer ones, that person can improve his/her English a lot.


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## cuchuflete

There is a sometimes delightful, sometimes aggravating, tendency among many foreros to (1)never read global and individual forum guidelines and stickies; or(2)selectively ignore those they don't care for at any given moment.  Newbies, in particular, seem to take great glee in presenting us with their own "improved" rulebooks.  Writing now from a moderator's perspective, I cannot imagine writing PMs asking for translations of posts, or referring people to rules demanding multilingual posts in CD.   

Perhaps after we persuade everyone that context is useful...


Perhaps after we persuade everyone that there are only ten  is only one topic per CD thread...


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## TimeHP

> This is very laborious, tiresome, boring and not productive at all.


 
But 'collaborative', as the guidelines of WR ask us to be... 



> Newbies, in particular, seem to take great glee in presenting us with their own "improved" rulebooks.


 
Are you referring to me? Am I considered a _newbie_?   sob!


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## natasha2000

TimeHP said:


> But 'collaborative', as the guidelines of WR ask us to be...


 
Yes, but collaboration means to help people when they need help, and if you are able to offer some, not to become a slave of disadvantaged foreros, and that is exactly what it woud be. To prove you I am right, you started this thread in two languages, yet you had the patience to keep like this only one post more. Capicci? (Sorry for my poor Italian spelling).


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## cuchuflete

TimeHP said:


> Are you referring to me? Am I considered a _newbie_?   sob!



Scusi TimeHP, mi sono dimenticato di quasi tutto l'italiano.
Vorebbe rispondere, ma.....


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## Outsider

It is a shame that the Cultural Discussions forum is so dominated by English. It seems that when I first started posting there were more threads in other languages, at least more threads in Spanish.

One thing we can all do to counter that linguistic inertia is to make an effort to keep threads that start in languages other than English written in that language.


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## natasha2000

I wouldn't say it's a shame. Maybe it's a pity, bur shame certainly not. Whether we like it or not, English is "lingua franca" at the moment. After all IMHO it is not so important in which language we write as long as we achieve to communicate and exchange our thoughts. In CD, communication is what is important, not language.


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## Outsider

For me, _it's a shame_ = _it's a pity_. You, no?


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## natasha2000

Outsider said:


> For me, _it's a shame_ = _it's a pity_. You, no?


 
As a matter of fact, for me, it is not.

When you say for something it's a shame, than you say that what is happening is a shameful action, and I dont think that using English in CD is a shameful action. for example:
It's a real shame they cut all those trees in our street. (Meaning that it is outrageous they did it, they do not respect the nature)

When you say it's a pity, then you express your own regret about something but you do not condemn the action. Its just that you would like it it were different, but it isn't. Pity.
It's a pity they cut all those trees in our street (meaning that yuou would like it they hadn't done it, but you don't condemn it).

I see it like this. Maybe I see too much..


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## belén

Enjoy!!

And now...back to topic


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## natasha2000

belen said:


> Enjoy!!
> 
> And now...back to topic


 

Sorry, Belen, for this digression, but I had too... On the other hand, I could have known there was a thread about it.. It would be unusual if there wasn't...


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## TimeHP

cuchuflete said:


> Scusi TimeHP, mi sono dimenticato di quasi tutto l'italiano.
> Vorebbe rispondere, ma.....


 
Please, ask me and I'll translate it for you.
I'd like to be collaborative and help a poor moderator in trouble.


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## emma42

Hi Natasha.  I, too, sometimes feel it is a pity that threads in CD are almost always in English (actually, "it's a shame" is often used synonymously nowadays with "it's a pity").  Yes, the point of CD is talking about cultural issues, but some people can't write English.

Perhaps we could start a vountary movement towards translating non-English posts in English within the thread?  If a forer@ wants to take the time and trouble, they could just post a translation.  This might then become part of the culture of CD, if you'll pardon the pun. Posts could simply be headed "English translation of Post #--".  Obviously, it would not be feasible to offer translations in every language, but as English is the l_ingua franca._..This would then perhaps encourage forer@s to post in CD who would not otherwise do so because of their lack of English.  People are usually better at understanding a foreign language than writing it.

I am writing off the top of my head, so perhaps someone will point out that my suggestion has some enormous flaw!


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## natasha2000

But Emma, in order that someone posts in CD they must know what is the thread about! If the whole thread is in English, and I come (supposing I speak only my mother tongue) and post in Serbian, do you think that my post would have much sense, if I even don't have a clue what the thread is about? 
If we want someone who does not speak Enlgish to participate, then all posts/threads written in English should be translated to other languages, and I find it really impossible, becasause there will be always someone in disadvantage. As I already said, it is a noble suggestion, but you simply cannot please everybody. I feel lucky to speak two most used languages in WR, so I don't miss too much, but sometimes I come accross to some threads in Itallian or French or German, and sometimes I get a grasp what is the thread about and I answer in English, but most of the times I just sigh and say, well you can't have everything, it's impossible.


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## emma42

Yes, Natasha, but often people are able to understand English, but not actually _write_ it.  I can sometimes follow a thread in Spanish, for example, but would not be able to reply in (much acceptable) Spanish.

You are right, though, we can't have everything.


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## roxcyn

Free free to post in other languages if you want to ask a question, I personally do not mind


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## ireney

emma42 said:


> Hi Natasha.  I, too, sometimes feel it is a pity that threads in CD are almost always in English (actually, "it's a shame" is often used synonymously nowadays with "it's a pity").  Yes, the point of CD is talking about cultural issues, but some people can't write English.
> 
> Perhaps we could start a vountary movement towards translating non-English posts in English within the thread?  If a forer@ wants to take the time and trouble, they could just post a translation.  This might then become part of the culture of CD, if you'll pardon the pun. Posts could simply be headed "English translation of Post #--".  Obviously, it would not be feasible to offer translations in every language, but as English is the l_ingua franca._..This would then perhaps encourage forer@s to post in CD who would not otherwise do so because of their lack of English.  People are usually better at understanding a foreign language than writing it.
> 
> I am writing off the top of my head, so perhaps someone will point out that my suggestion has some enormous flaw!



That would make CD threads _humongous_! Post # 3 is in English. Someone comes along and translates it in Spanish (that won't take much time, there are enough Spanish speakers). Then someone comes along a little later and does the same in French. A while later a translation in German is added. I then come on-line and think that there are a few people out there who actually learn Greek or whatever and do a Greek translation (I mean why not do it just because we are few who speak Greek around here?). Natasha i.e. does one to Serbian for good measure and someone does a Turkish translation too (quite a few people speaking or learning Turkish around)
That's one post that generated another 6 and there are many other languages around!  Add to these the "I'm sorry but you mis-translated that" or the answers to the mis-translation and the explanations that "no, whoever posted #3 didn't mean this he meant that" and we'll have a veritable Babel in our hands.
Nor would a "translate into certain languages only" rule be fair.

I have in the past asked for foreros posting on threads in English to write in English for my own sake (so that I can follow the whole conversation; my Spanish is almost non-existent). Most foreros have been kind enough to oblidge me.
If I see a thread with a Spanish or whatever title I click on it only out of curiosity and to test my comprehension of [insert language I cannot really speak here].


Nothing stops me from starting a thread in Greek apart from the fact that a) very few would participate b) the posters would have to be their own moderators and that's tricky to say the least.


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## natasha2000

ireney said:


> That would make CD threads _humongous_! Post # 3 is in English. Someone comes along and translates it in Spanish (that won't take much time, there are enough Spanish speakers). Then someone comes along a little later and does the same in French. A while later a translation in German is added. I then come on-line and think that there are a few people out there who actually learn Greek or whatever and do a Greek translation (I mean why not do it just because we are few who speak Greek around here?). Natasha i.e. does one to Serbian for good measure and someone does a Turkish translation too (quite a few people speaking or learning Turkish around)
> That's one post that generated another 6 and there are many other languages around!  Add to these the "I'm sorry but you mis-translated that" or the answers to the mis-translation and the explanations that "no, whoever posted #3 didn't mean this he meant that" and we'll have a veritable Babel in our hands.
> Nor would a "translate into certain languages only" rule be fair.
> 
> I have in the past asked for foreros posting on threads in English to write in English for my own sake (so that I can follow the whole conversation; my Spanish is almost non-existent). Most foreros have been kind enough to oblidge me.
> If I see a thread with a Spanish or whatever title I click on it only out of curiosity and to test my comprehension of [insert language I cannot really speak here].
> 
> 
> Nothing stops me from starting a thread in Greek apart from the fact that a) very few would participate b) the posters would have to be their own moderators and that's tricky to say the least.


 
That's exactly what I was trying to say! Thanks, Ireney!


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## Etcetera

I wholeheartedly agree with Ireney. 
I can start a thread in Russian - I won't violate any WR rule, will I? But what would be the purpose of such a thread? I love my native language, but if communication in English is more effective, I'll use English. Just for my own sake.


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## TimeHP

> I love my native language, but if communication in English is more effective, I'll use English.


 
But you don't have any problems with English! You write and understand it well.  



> Someone comes along and translates it in Spanish (that won't take much time, there are enough Spanish speakers). Then someone comes along a little later and does the same in French. A while later a translation in German is added.


 
Actually I suggested to translate messages into English. I've never talked about translations in many languages. The 'pipe dream' was for helping people who can't write and understand English well.  

Ciao


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## emma42

Yes, I was just suggesting translations into English, as it is the _lingua franca._  I know it's not fair and all the rest of it, but it is a fact.


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## Etcetera

TimeHP said:


> But you don't have any problems with English! You write and understand it well.


Grazie, signor!


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## natasha2000

TimeHP said:


> Actually I suggested to translate messages into English. I've never talked about translations in many languages. The 'pipe dream' was for helping people who can't write and understand English well.
> Ciao


Now I am cofused. If let's say, I don't speak English, and I open a new thread writing in Spanish (we'll not take Serbian as an example since there are a cople of us here). And someone comes and translates into English.
And someone answers in english, what's good for me then, if I don't have aclue of English? Should I expect that then someone keeps on translating for me from both languages in both directions? Nobody would do that.


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## emma42

Oh là là!  I was suggesting that many forer@s can understand English,  but not write it.  So they may want to join in a thread, which has been mainly in English and which they have understood, but they may not feel competent to write a post in English.  In which case, their reply could be translated into English.  If someone cannot understand English at all, then they will have problems with my suggestion, which never claimed to answer all problems.


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## zebedee

emma42 said:


> Oh là là!  I was suggesting that many forer@s can understand English,  but not write it.  So they may want to join in a thread, which has been mainly in English and which they have understood, but they may not feel competent to write a post in English.  In which case, their reply could be translated into English.



And, as Ireney says, this already happens in many threads in the CD, both into English and from English.

TimeHP, your suggestion is a kind one but far from practical and at the end of the day people are going to express themselves in the way and in the language they feel most comfortable in. 

There are no monolingual threads in CD by design, it's something that just happens. That said, nobody shuns anyone in the CD for participating in Spanish, French, Russian, Chinese or pidgen English in a previously English thread. There's always a kind soul who'll help translate or clarify on request. 

And, TimeHP, there's nothing to stop you either from carrying on writing all your posts in 2 languages if you prefer. However, you can't expect everyone to want to do the same as you.

At the end of the day, as long as a post is on-topic, it makes little difference what language it's in.


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