# even though he was a communist, I would have liked to have met him



## Lee Ann Sosa

This is the sentence in English:

_And* even though *he was a communist, I would have liked to have met him, if only to see what communists are like._

My question is about the grammar in the whole sentence, especially the words in bold. (The subject "he" is dead, so it's all in the past)

Y aunque *fuera* comunista, me hubiera gustado conocerlo, si tan solo *fue* para saber cómo son los comunistas.

Any and all suggestions about how to make this phrase better are greatly appreciated!


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## micafe

Así lo diría yo:

Y aunque *haya sido* comunista, me *habría* (hubiera) gustado conocerlo, aunque fuera solo para saber cómo son los comunistas.


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## Cerros de Úbeda

Lee Ann Sosa said:


> Y aunque *fuera* comunista, me hubiera gustado conocerlo, si tan solo *fue* para saber cómo son los comunistas.




"Y aunque *era / fuera* comunista, me hubiera gustado *haberle conocido / conocerlo*, *aunque sólo fuera* para saber cómo son los comunistas."


(*) Note:
In the title, you mention 'past tense', but note that the English could be both 'past' or 'subjunctive':

"_And even though *he was / were* a communist,..."_



1- *era / fuera*

'Era' focuses on the fact that 'he was' a communist.

'Fuera' focuses rather on the speaker's view; the possibility of whether he was a communist or not doesn't bother him.


2- *haberle conocido / conocerlo*

'Conocerlo' is preferred for the present or future, referring to a possible ('real') possibility; 'me gustaría conocerlo' would seem to imply that it's a possibility (i.e., he is alive).

'Haberle conocido' is preferred for a past possibility. Here, he has now passed away, so this would be preferred.


3- If only to + inf = *aunque sólo fuera para + inf *


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## gengo

Lee Ann Sosa said:


> _And even though he was a communist, I would have liked to have met him, if only to see what communists are like._



Your question has been answered, but the English grammar is incorrect (this is a very common error).  There is no need for the present perfect tense in the underlined part, which should be the infinitive (to meet), since the tense is already conveyed by the first present perfect verb (have liked).

I would have liked to have met him  
I would have liked to meet him


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## Lee Ann Sosa

Thank you Gengo!  But still, to my ear it sounds better to say "have met".  I don't know why; perhaps because I've always heard it this way.  Also, thanks to other posters.  It's all very helpful.


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## gengo

Lee Ann Sosa said:


> to my ear it sounds better to say "have met".  I don't know why; perhaps because I've always heard it this way.



Yes, as I said, it's very common, and if you go strictly from what you hear, it's not surprising that it would sound natural to you.

I imagine people started saying this by confusing similar constructions such as this:  _I wish I could have met him._


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## lagartija68

gengo said:


> I would have liked to have met him


Es como si en español dijera: "me hubiera gustado haberlo conocido"




Lee Ann Sosa said:


> if only to see what communists are like.


"aunque más no fuera para ver cómo son los comunistas"
"por lo menos para ver cómo son los comunistas"
"al menos para ..."



Lee Ann Sosa said:


> what communists are like.


También podría traducirse: "cómo es un comunista."


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## chamyto

lagartija68 said:


> Es como si en español dijera: "me hubiera gustado haberlo conocido"



Hola, en español yo creo que sí tendría sentido. "Quizás" no en el sentido de "meet" si no, más bien, en el sentido de know. (saber más de el) . No sé si me explico.

Un saludo.


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## elprofe

A mí me surgió hace poco esa duda... Consulté algunos libros de gramática y ponía que las tres posibilidades son correctas:
_I would like to have met 
I would have liked to meet  
I would have liked to have met _


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## gengo

elprofe said:


> _I would have liked to have met _



That is correct only if the context requires a double present perfect tense.  In virtually all cases, that is not required.

When you use this tense twice, you are in effect establishing two points in the past:   I would have liked (when he was alive; point 1) to have met him (point 2, which was before point 1).  Logically, there is no need for this here, since what the sentence is saying is that the subject would have liked (le habría gustado) the experience of meeting him, not the experience of having met him (which doesn't really make sense, unless you are talking about the memory of the encounter).


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## SevenDays

Lee Ann Sosa said:


> Thank you Gengo!  But still, to my ear it sounds better to say "have met".  I don't know why; perhaps because I've always heard it this way.  Also, thanks to other posters.  It's all very helpful.



The English is fine; there is no error. Let's start with this:

_I would like to meet him_

In this sentence, there is no "present tense;" _would _is a modal verb; _like _a bare infinitive; and _to meet _a to-infinitive, and they are all tenseless, meaning that they are not inflected for (present) tense. However, pragmatically/semantically/intuitively, we understand that _I would like to meet him _refers to "non-past time," which is really the present/future time. And how do we refer to "past time"? We use a perfect construction:

_I would have liked to have met him_

and since there is no need to mark "past time" _twice_, we can keep "to meet" unchanged:

_I would have liked to meet him_

But language is more than just placing events in "time." In a past-time context, _to meet_ and_ to have met_ refer to the _non-realization _of the act of "meeting," and they do it from different perspectives: _to meet _depicts non-realization as open-ended, while _to have met _depicts non-realization as  whole/completed. This is _aspect_ rather than _tense_. 

Put another way, _to have met _is just more expressive, in that it marks perfective aspect as well as past time. Now, in

_I would have liked to have met him_

could "to have met" be prior in past time _relative_ to "would have liked"? In isolation, without context, there is ambiguity; we can't tell the proper point of reference. If the point of reference is "the moment of speaking," then both "would have liked" and "to have met" are concurrent in past time (both precede the moment of speaking). But if the point of reference is some point in the past, then "to have met" can be prior to "would have liked." This ambiguity would be solved in context. Context always helps.


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## elroy

Cerros de Úbeda said:


> "_And even though *he was / were* a communist,..."_


 In this context, “were” would not work in English.


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## anahiseri

Aunque *fuera* comunista, me habría gustado conocerlo, aunque solo fuera para saber cómo son los comunistas.

fuera: *haya sido* implicaría que está vivo.
*hubiera gustado:  * estas condicionales se hacen así:   
_Si yo hubiera/hubiese hecho esto, habría ocurrido aquello.
If I had done this, that would have happened.

Otro ejemplo:_
Si lo hubiera conocido, me habría gustado. = Me habría gustado si lo hubiera conocido.


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## Cerros de Úbeda

elroy said:


> In this context, “were” would not work in English.



You're wrong, I'm afraid.

Across the whole thread we've been discussing the use of the Spanish subjunctive 'fuera' - that's because it corresponds to the English subjunctive (i.e., 'were').



Lee Ann Sosa said:


> Y aunque *fuera* comunista, me hubiera gustado conocerlo, si tan solo *fuera* para





Cerros de Úbeda said:


> "Y aunque *era / fuera* comunista, me hubiera gustado haberle conocido / conocerlo, *aunque sólo fuera* para saber cómo son los comunistas."





anahiseri said:


> Aunque *fuera* comunista, me habría gustado conocerlo, aunque solo fuera para saber cómo son los comunistas.
> 
> *fuera*: haya sido implicaría que está vivo.
> *hubiera gustado:  * estas condicionales se hacen así:
> _Si yo *hubiera/hubiese hecho esto*, habría ocurrido aquello.
> If I had done this, that would have happened.
> 
> Otro ejemplo:_
> Si lo *hubiera conocido*, me habría gustado. = Me habría gustado si lo hubiera conocido.


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## elroy

No, you’re wrong, I’m afraid.


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## anahiseri

If the person is dead, it should be
Even though he had been a communist


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## elprofe

anahiseri said:


> If the person is dead, it should be
> Even though he had been a communist



This would be true if "was" were in the subjunctive, but Elroy has already confirmed it is not. So, as "was" is just a past tense, there's no need to use "has been'.


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## anahiseri

I don't understand what you mean, elprofe


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## elroy

Even *though* he *was* a communist = Aunque *era* comunista 
Even *though* he *is *a communist = Aunque *es* comunista 
Even *if* he *were* a communist = Aunque *fuera* comunista en el sentido de "ahora" 
Even *if* he *had been* a communist = Aunque *hubiera sido* un comunista
Aunque *fuera* comunista en el sentido de "lo era, pero no importa" (como en el OP) = He *may have been *a communist, but 

I hope that helps!


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## anahiseri

Yo veo estas posibilidades:

1) Even though he had been a communist = aunque había sido
2) Even though he was a communist = aunque era
3) Even if he had been a communist = aunque (incluso si) hubiera sido
4) Even if he were a communist = aunque (incluso si) fuera . . .(esta no se puede usar si la persona está muerta)


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## anahiseri

I agree, elroy.


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## SevenDays

Cerros de Úbeda said:


> You're wrong, I'm afraid.
> 
> Across the whole thread we've been discussing the use of the Spanish subjunctive 'fuera' - that's because it corresponds to the English subjunctive (i.e., 'were').



The equivalence _fuera ~ were _happens in one particular context: counterfactual constructions: _If I were/were I/Si (yo) fuera _...
_even though_ is not counterfactual (it acknowledges something as true/factual), which is why you can't use _were._


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## anahiseri

SevenDays said:


> _even though_ is not counterfactual


You're right, but *even if* can  be counterfactual, depending on the verb.
Vide number 3 and 4 in post 20.


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## anahiseri

El problema está en que *fuera *se puede usar de dos maneras, contrafáctico y no contrafáctico.

Si yo *fuera* rico . . . .
Aunque *fuera* comunista en el sentido de "lo era, pero no importa"  (elroy,  post 19)  = aunque *era ! ! ! *


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## SevenDays

anahiseri said:


> El problema está en que *fuera *se puede usar de dos maneras, contrafáctico y no contrafáctico.
> 
> Si yo *fuera* rico . . . .
> Aunque *fuera* comunista en el sentido de "lo era, pero no importa"  (elroy,  post 19)  = aunque *era ! ! ! *



Exacto, y esto se debe a que la forma subjuntiva de "fuera" en castellano/español está morfológicamente marcada (_-era_).   Esto implica que los _valores del subjuntivo _(deseo, contrafáctico, subjetividad, virtualidad, potencialidad, etc.) son independientes de la _forma verbal _del subjuntivo.

En el inglés moderno no ocurre lo mismo, ya que el verbo no tiene formas "subjuntivas" (como existían en el _inglés antiguo_). En el inglés moderno, lo que se entiende como "subjuntivo" tiene que ver exclusivamente con _significado/meaning_, que para "were" es "counterfactual." Específicamente, _even though _es "counterfactual" y rechaza _were _(se acepta que hay un hecho verdadero/válido, es decir hay una "realidad"), pero _even if _lo acepta porque la perspective es netamente "hypothetical."


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## Cerros de Úbeda

No puedo por menos de observar cómo te contradices:


SevenDays said:


> _*even though*_ *is* *not counterfactual* (it acknowledges something as true/factual), which is why you can't use _were._





SevenDays said:


> Específicamente, _*even though *_*es "counterfactual*" y rechaza _were _(se acepta que hay un hecho verdadero/válido, es decir hay una "realidad")




Pero bueno, en todo caso, acepto tu argumento.

Aunque es cierto que 'even though' tiene una mayor carga factual que 'even if', que contiene esa connotación contrafactual a la que tú te refieres, no por ello dejan de seguir teniendo ambos una connotación de posibilidad... Ambos siguen apuntando a un sentido de 'posibilidad' - que puede, en sentido contrario, referirse a la improbabilidad, o la duda (como podéis comprobar en la cita del Collins, que aporto más abajo).

Tanto 'even if' como 'even though' se refieren a posibilidades hipotéticas... Y por eso, ambos admiten el uso de 'were':

*(*) Google Search
- Even if *
1. *despite the possibility that; *no matter whether.
- "always try everything even if it turns out to be a dud"
- despite the fact that.
"he's a good person, even if he has a troubled past"

even if meaning - Google Search

*(*) Merriam Webster
- Even though*
used as a stronger way to say "though" or "although"
- She stayed with him even though he often mistreated her.
- I'm going *even though it may rain.*

Definition of EVEN THOUGH


The difference between one and the other would be in the perspective of the speaker.

With 'even though...' he considers the possibility as hypothetical. With 'even if...', he would consider the proposition improbable, or an unlikely fact.

*- Even though he were a communist,...*
(= Despite the possibility (of the fact) of him being a communist,... - The speaker considers the fact that he were a communist as a possibility).

*- Even if he were a communist,...*
(= Even in the case that he had been a communist,... - The speaker considers the possibility that he was / were / had been a communist as a fact).


Os aporto lo que dice el diccionario Collins respecto a 'were' como pasado del subjuntivo. Veréis ahí cómo es compatible tanto con 'even if' como con 'even though' (expresiones de probabilidad similares a 'as if' y 'as though'), por si os puede servir de ayuda:

*(*) Collins 
- The Subjunctive*
In written English and in very formal speech, the past subjunctive form *were is sometimes used with the 1st and 3rd person singular, in place of the normal past form was. *The past subjunctive may be used:

(*) after if or I wish, to express regret or longing

- If your father were alive he would help you.
- If I were rich I would buy a Ferrari.

*(*) after as if/as though and similar expressions, to express doubt or improbability.*

- You talk to him *as if he were* your slave!
- Some people behave *as though dogs were* human.

Many people prefer to use the normal form of the past in this type of sentence. This is quite acceptable in ordinary English.

- If your father was alive he would help you.
- If I was rich I would buy a Ferrari.
- You talk to him as if he was your slave!

The subjunctive | Learning English Grammar | Collins Education


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## SevenDays

Cerros de Úbeda said:


> No puedo por menos que observar cómo te contradices:
> 
> .....



Se me escapó el "no;" debe ser

"Específicamente, _even though _no_ es _"counterfactual" y rechaza _were ..."_

ya lo corregí; gracias.

Y con respecto al Collins; todos los ejemplos que nos da están en presente. Ahora bien, si "were" es _past subjunctive_, ¿por qué no puede aparecer en contextos de "pasado"? Los profesores nos dicen que debe ser:

_If I were rich _(presente)
_If I had been rich _(pasado, no se admite "were")
_I demanded that she be on time _(no se admite "I demanded that she were on time").

Nuestro subjuntivo es morfológico; todos los verbos tienen desinencias verbales que indican "modo subjuntivo," esto no ocurre en inglés. Los ejemplos de Collins en realidad apuntan al uso de "were" un función de _*modalidad *_("meaning"), y contextos en los cuales aparece. Pero, bueno, no le pidamos a un diccionario que nos hable de gramática/sintaxis/modalidad; lo mejor que hacen los diccionarios es la colección y explicación sistemática de _palabras _(con enfoque en etimología, ortografía, definición, etc.)


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## elprofe

Cerros de Úbeda said:


> No puedo por menos que observar cómo te contradices:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pero bueno, en todo caso, acepto tu argumento.
> 
> Aunque es cierto que 'even though' tiene una mayor carga factual que 'even if', que contiene esa connotación contrafactual a la que tú te refieres, no por ello dejan de seguir teniendo ambos una connotación de posibilidad... Ambos siguen apuntando a un sentido de 'posibilidad' - que puede, en sentido contrario, referirse a la improbabilidad, o la duda (como podéis comprobar en la cita del Collins, que aporto más abajo).
> 
> Tanto 'even if' como 'even though' se refieren a posibilidades hipotéticas... Y por eso, ambos admiten el uso de 'were':
> 
> *(*) Google Search
> - Even if *
> 1. *despite the possibility that; *no matter whether.
> - "always try everything even if it turns out to be a dud"
> - despite the fact that.
> "he's a good person, even if he has a troubled past"
> 
> even if meaning - Google Search
> 
> *(*) Merriam Webster
> - Even though*
> used as a stronger way to say "though" or "although"
> - She stayed with him even though he often mistreated her.
> - I'm going *even though it may rain.*
> 
> Definition of EVEN THOUGH
> 
> 
> The difference between one and the other would be in the perspective of the speaker.
> 
> With 'even though...' he considers the possibility as hypothetical. With 'even if...', he would consider the proposition improbable, or an unlikely fact.
> 
> *- Even though he were a communist,...*
> (= Despite the possibility (of the fact) of him being a communist,... - The speaker considers the fact that he were a communist as a possibility).
> 
> *- Even if he were a communist,...*
> (= Even in the case that he had been a communist,... - The speaker considers the possibility that he was / were / had been a communist as a fact).
> 
> 
> Os aporto lo que dice el diccionario Collins respecto a 'were' como pasado del subjuntivo. Veréis ahí cómo es compatible tanto con 'even if' como con 'even though' (expresiones de probabilidad similares a 'as if' y 'as though'), por si os puede servir de ayuda:
> 
> *(*) Collins
> - The Subjunctive*
> In written English and in very formal speech, the past subjunctive form *were is sometimes used with the 1st and 3rd person singular, in place of the normal past form was. *The past subjunctive may be used:
> 
> (*) after if or I wish, to express regret or longing
> 
> - If your father were alive he would help you.
> - If I were rich I would buy a Ferrari.
> 
> *(*) after as if/as though and similar expressions, to express doubt or improbability.*
> 
> - You talk to him *as if he were* your slave!
> - Some people behave *as though dogs were* human.
> 
> Many people prefer to use the normal form of the past in this type of sentence. This is quite acceptable in ordinary English.
> 
> - If your father was alive he would help you.
> - If I was rich I would buy a Ferrari.
> - You talk to him as if he was your slave!
> 
> The subjunctive | Learning English Grammar | Collins Education



No entiendo para qué has copiado las explicaciones y ejemplos del diccionario Collins, si en ninguna de ellas sale "even though + subjuntivo"... No sé si es que quieres hacer alguna relación entre "as though" e "even though" a ver si cuela, pero es que no tienen nada que ver una expresión con la otra. De hecho, el propio diccionario Collins apunta "to express doubt or improbability", función que "even though", como conector concesivo, no realiza...


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## gengo

Cerros de Úbeda said:


> You're wrong, I'm afraid.



Elroy is correct.  "Even though" is never followed by the subjunctive.  "Even if," on the other hand, can be followed by either subjunctive or indicative.

Ex.
Even if he was a communist... (= even if we accept it as truth that he was)
Even if he were a communist... (he is not a communist, but hypothetically, if we assume that he is...)


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## Cerros de Úbeda

gengo said:


> Elroy is correct.  "Even though" is never followed by the subjunctive.




According to the Merriam Webster Dictionary, 'even though' can INDEED be followed by the subjunctive;


Cerros de Úbeda said:


> *(*) Merriam Webster
> - Even though*
> 
> - I'm going *even though it may rain.*


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## elroy

“may rain” is not subjunctive.


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## Bevj

_Even though he was a communist_...
This only has one interpretation in English as far as I am concerned.
He was a communist.
I know and have always known that he was a communist.
(But I wish I had met him).

Subjunctive -
Even _if_ he _was_ a communist...

But these are different examples and not what the OP is asking.

(Edited to delete dubious example.)


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## gengo

Bevj said:


> Subjunctive -
> Even _if_ he _was_ a communist...



"Was" is indicative, not subjunctive.  See my last post above.


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## Bevj

In BrE it is conmonly (if not nearly always)  used in preference to _were_, which I understand is the AE choice.


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## gengo

Bevj said:


> In BrE it is conmonly (if not nearly always)  used in preference to _were_, which I understand is the AE choice.



I'm aware of that, and even in the US, many or most people use "was," probably because they don't know what subjunctive even means.  However, just because native speakers use "was," that doesn't make it the subjunctive form.


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