# parent and child in the bathroom



## Joca

Maybe this thread is on the trail of the thread on sex education... 

What do parents think about having a shower together with their children? Do you think this could be part of sex education at home? Does any of you do this usually, without shame? With children of both genders or only with the child of your gender? Is this practise frowned upon in your area?

For your information: I usually have a shower with my 5-year-old son, but never did so with my daughter. Their mother still does with both.


----------



## Pirlo

I think that it is acceptable at a very young age.. and only with the same gender. But I believe that it is important not to continue this too long, as the child might then start to believe this is a normal behaviour.


----------



## Musical Chairs

This is not at all strange in Japan, and I see nothing at all wrong with it. The last time I went back to Japan, I went to the baths every single day because that's one of my _favorite_ things in the world. In fact, I don't see why people have to be so self-conscious in the US. I see young girls of all ages going to the baths with their friends (the baths are gender separated). It's a leisure activity, sort of like going to the movies is in the US. Men seem to enjoy going to public baths, too.

In Japan, families share the same bath water, but the water is clean every time someone uses it (people shower before they soak in the bath). It's not like in the US where people just dunk without cleaning themselves first, and I think it's gross because I don't want to be surrounded by dirty water. When I was little, I'd shower with my mom, grandma, maybe even my grandpa (I don't remember anymore but I wouldn't be surprised if I did). I've seen everyone in my family naked. I also used to take baths with my brother, and my mom used to with her brother. I still see my brother naked sometimes and he's 12.

Edit: About the sex education part, I think it eases the shock of growing up a whole lot and makes people comfortable with their own bodies. As I discussed in the other thread, I've seen all kinds of people naked --- young, old, fat, thin, attractive, ugly --- and I see naked bodies as very natural. I didn't even notice that I didn't have breasts when I was young, even though many other people around me did because it was so normal. I saw it a lot, but it never occurred to me that they had it AND I didn't. In fact, one time my mother wanted to take a picture of me taking a bath with my brother and she told me to cover my chest. I didn't even understand why at first!


----------



## vachecow

Musical Chairs said:


> The last time I went back to Japan, I went to the baths every single day because that's one of my _favorite_ things in the world. In fact, I don't see why people have to be so self-conscious in the US.


I went to Japan a few years ago, and had never seen baths like these before (or after) then.  It was a real eye opening experience.


----------



## Etcetera

I strongly doubt that most bathrooms here are supposed to serve for two persons at a time. 
Speaking seriously: I've never heard of parents having shower together with their children. A mother can help her child (under 7 years old or so) to wash themselves, but an older child would take shower or bath on their own.


----------



## .   1

I bathed my baby daughter in the bathtub.
When I had a bath she would climb in with me.
We are comfortable bathing around each other.
My home has three showers and one bath and an outdoor spa.
We never wear clothes in the spa, how counter productive.

Bathing per se has nothing to do with sexual relations and is an excellent way for littlies to see the bits of the birds and the bees so there is no mystery or naughtiness or wickedness involved in a daily ritual.

Showers and bathrooms are dangerous places and, second only to the kitchen, are the scene of the most serious injuries and fatalities in the home so we don't close those doors in case someone slips or hurts themselves.  

.,,


----------



## alexacohen

Joca said:


> What do parents think about having a shower together with their children? Do you think this could be part of sex education at home? Does any of you do this usually, without shame? With children of both genders or only with the child of your gender? Is this practise frowned upon in your area?


It's natural. If they want to take a shower or bath with me, it's OK. If they don't, it's OK too. I don't like dirty water around us either, so if they want to play in the bath, it's shower first (to take away the mud on their feet), and shower last (to take away the bubbles on their hair). They do as they please. I don't see it as a part of sex education at all. Bathrooms never had locks at home when I was a kid. Mine don't have even doors. As Robert says, they are dangerous places. It's safer to keep doors open.
Alexa


----------



## Musical Chairs

I don't think taking baths together is _too_ much a matter of practicality. It's just fun being able to relax in a big open area (some baths are outside, and I love the ones in the mountains) and talking and hearing other people talk. Sometimes they have different kinds like medicinal baths (supposed to be good for your skin), jacuzzis, different temperatures, etc. And I love having my back washed! I also love having a cold drink / ice cream after a hot bath - it feels SO good.

One time my mom met her friend she hadn't seen in a long time at the baths. It was funny because they were like "haha we're naked!" But it wasn't that weird - they talked normally and it wasn't super awkward like it would be in the US (and elsewhere, it seems).

Public baths are generally gender separated but women are allowed to take their sons with them. I'm not sure if there are specific age limits but I've seen boys as old as 10ish in the women's baths (which I think is getting old).

Edit: And you are supposed to shower off after you finish taking a bath (like Alexa said).


----------



## Kajjo

Joca said:


> What do parents think about having a shower together with their children?


It is completely normal for me to see my parents naked and vice versa. I do not see any problem in parents showering or bathing together with their children of both genders. To the contrary, children should grow up with a sense of normalcy with regards to nakedness and bodily aspects of both genders.



> Do you think this could be part of sex education at home?


You could call it that way, because it belongs to the part of the "birds and bees". When I was young, I never thought of nakedness as being sexual and this normalcy I regard as very educating and healthy. Many questions and mysteries do not even arise if nakedness is normal and children know the body of both genders. Talking about the body is much easier if not seen as forbidden, hidden and somewhat special.

I believe that children easily realise that nakedness with their closest family does not mean that nakedness with strangers is common and normal.

Kajjo


----------



## heidita

I agree with Kajjo on this as in Germany it is very usual to see. It is shown on film too, as it is part of our culture, I suppose.

I am rather stunned at Musical's post, though. I had heard that Japanese hate touching or being touched. Why thy should find it so easy to expose themselves even to strangers, is surprising to me. 

Here in Spain, generally speaking, it would be a rather surprising behaviour. It is not considered "proper". I would like to hear young people's opinion. I must ask my friend Maruja, who has none less than ten children. Let's see what she says.

I have even asked some 35-year-olds. They looked at me with surprise, as though I was thinking they were perverts.


----------



## Musical Chairs

heidita said:


> I agree with Kajjo on this as in Germany it is very usual to see. It is shown on film too, as it is part of our culture, I suppose.
> 
> I am rather stunned at Musical's post, though. I had heard that Japanese hate touching or being touched. Why thy should find it so easy to expose themselves even to strangers, is surprising to me.
> 
> Here in Spain, generally speaking, it would be a rather surprising behaviour. It is not considered "proper". I would like to hear young people's opinion. I must ask my friend Maruja, who has none less than ten children. Let's see what she says.
> 
> I have even asked some 35-year-olds. They looked at me with surprise, as though I was thinking they were perverts.



We don't like being touched (or find it strange) in the way Westerners hug and kiss to greet each other, especially if they don't really know each other well. We bow and nod more. Hugs, kisses, and PDA (public displays of affection) of all kinds are seen much less in Japan. I don't think this has anything to do with the fact that the Japanese aren't as self-conscious.


----------



## alexacohen

heidita said:


> Here in Spain, generally speaking, it would be a rather surprising behaviour. It is not considered "proper". I would like to hear young people's opinion. I must ask my friend Maruja, who has none less than ten children. Let's see what she says.
> I have even asked some 35-year-olds. They looked at me with surprise, as though I was thinking they were perverts.


Oops Heidita... I'm a Spaniard... 
Alexa


----------



## ColdomadeusX

My ma believes that it shouldn't matter all too much as long as you are all of the samer gender. i.e. it's acceptable to have as many females of whatever age in a bathroom-same goes to males- but if you are showering with a child then father should try and look after son,mother-daughter. In the case where that doesn't happen, the cutoff age in the family tends to be around 5/6 yrs of child to parent of different genders.
I don't oppose that view-I think it's very natural but at a certain age it should be agreed that bathing with someone (even of the same gender)sometimes can get a little embarrassing because of the developement of self-awareness issue (i.e. you wouldn't expect a teenager to want to bath with a parent because it would be considered a breach of privacy and personal space).


----------



## Cintia&Martine

Hi,

Sex-education?  The bath with the children? No, only  toilet training and naturel behaviour about naked bodies.

In Spain too. I'd never heard or seen that:"It is not considered "proper". All my spanish friends have a bath with her children and don't use to lock the door of the bathroom.


----------



## heidita

Cintia&Martine said:


> Hi,
> 
> Sex-education? The bath with the children? No, only toilet training and naturel behaviour about naked bodies.


Does this mean that you are not having a bath with them?? 



> In Spain too. I'd never heard or seen that:"It is not considered "proper". All my spanish friends have a bath with her children and don't use to lock the door of the bathroom.


 

Me he tomado la libertad de preguntar a varios foreros de España. Una opinión fue de un chico joven, que me dijo que aunque alguno de sus amigos sí hablaba de que sus padres andaban desnudos por casa o que se bañaban con ellos (o en su día lo habían hecho) él  (18 años) no lo había hecho ni lo consideraba desde su punto de vista y el punto de vista de su generación _normal_.

Y esta es la opinión de Maruja14 que publico con su autorización:

Cuando los niños son pequeños sí, pero vamos hasta los 2 o 3 años o por ahí. Con niños más grandes ni ellos se sienten cómodos ni tú tampoco.
Creo que el pudor es algo que los niños tienen desde pequeñitos y no es conveniente forzar las situaciones. Es algo natural en el ser humano.
Cuando los niños tienen ya 6 o 7 años, no me parece adecuado en absoluto, sencillamente porque creo que ninguno está cómodo.
Pero claro, hay gente para todo.
Si tú te bañas con el niño cuando éste ya tiene uso de razón ¿en qué momento dejas de hacerlo? ¿Cuando cumple 12 o 15 o 18? Mejor no llegar a esa situación.
Me parece un error. No saben que al niño eso no le parece natural y no tienen ni idea del daño que le pueden estar haciendo.

En fin, me parece que queda clara su opinión.


----------



## alexacohen

But Heidita... surely this is just a family option? My kids are perfectly comfortable about seeing us naked; sometimes they want to take a bath with me, sometimes they don't. My twins are twelve. Why should not be natural to see your mum's body naked? After all, you've been inside it. 
Alexa


----------



## Maruja14

alexacohen said:


> But Heidita... surely this is just a family option? My kids are perfectly comfortable about seeing us naked; sometimes they want to take a bath with me, sometimes they don't. My twins are twelve. Why should not be natural to see your mum's body naked? After all, you've been inside it.
> Alexa


 
Desde luego que es solo una opinión o una forma de hacer. Yo siempre me he bañado con mis hijos cuando son pequeños. Luego te preguntan por qué tu tienes pelo y ellos no con toda su inocencia y les contestas con naturalidad. De repente un día, ves que se sienten incómodos auque no te lo quieran decir, en ese momento yo no les forzaría a que vean las cosas con la naturalidad que puedes verlas tú. Cada uno es como es.

Siempre (cada uno de mis hijos a distintas edades) he empezado de repente a tener problemas para cambiar el bañador a mi hijo en la playa sin taparle. Es algo natural en nuestra cultura, cada uno se vuelve pudoroso a una edad. No considero que sea adecuado forzar el pudor de cada niño, cuando le llega, le llega y ya está. Hay que respetarlo como todo lo demás.


----------



## heidita

Francamente, Alexa, tu caso me parece más bien una excepción, no la norma en este país. Quizás debería serlo, pero que no lo es, me costa. 

Ten en cuenta que la opinión de Maruja es de una mujer joven de 44 años.


----------



## heidita

Eso sale en un tratado sobre niños:



> 4-6 años ...Aparecen las primeras manifestaciones de pudor,
> 
> 6-7 años Aceptan roles de género. Quieren ser independientes en los hábitos de higiene que tienen que ver con sus genitales
> 
> 10-11 años ... Les molesta ser vistos desnudos, aún con personas de confianza como sus padres: deciden bañarse solos. Esta conducta se ve más temprano en los niños que en las niñas.


 
Esto sale en una revista de pediatría sin ningún afán puritano ni religioso.

Más aquí.


----------



## Cintia&Martine

I only mean that not sex-education, only toilet / hygien training.
I can't see what sex-education has to do with the matter.


----------



## Antpax

Hola:

Hablar de lo que es "normal" o "adecuado" por norma general es complicado, por lo que no voy a entrar en valorarlo. Desde mi punto de vista, que estaría entre medias generacionalmente de la de Maruja (un abrazo chica que hacía tiempo que no coincidíamos) y la del chico de 18 años (que me imagino quien es), yo diría que aquí no es muy _común_, pero si alguien te dice que lo hace, o que lo ha hecho, no creo que nadie le mire raro ni censurará dicha conducta. Yo no recuerdo bañarme con mis padres pero si me suena que alguno de mis amigos me ha comentado que él o ella sí lo hacían de pequeños. Pero por otro lado, yo nunca echo el pestillo a la puerta del baño, salvo que haya algún desconocido en casa, y opino, como alguien ya apuntado, que por tema de seguridad no es mala idea dejarlo así si te estas duchando o bañando.

Pero supongo que habrá más opiniones.

Saludos.

Ant


----------



## heidita

Cintia&Martine said:


> I only mean that not sex-education, only toilet / hygien training.
> I can't see what sex-education has to do with the matter.


 
Yo no creo que la gente que se baña con sus hijos lo hace para enseñarles higiene sino porque quieren enseñar a los hijos que la desnudez es algo natural y forma parte de su educación sexual, sin duda.  

No creo que se tenga que estar desnudo delante de los hijos para enseñarles una correcta forma de higiene.


----------



## Maruja14

Hola Ant (abrazo para ti también, me alegro de verte). En mi casa no hay pestillos en los baños por cuestión de seguridad. No es que no los echemos, es que ni siquiera existen, aunque alguna vez entre alguien inoportunamente. La verdad es que tampoco pasa nada.

Estoy de acuerdo contigo en que no es muy común, creo. Tampoco se censura al que lo haga, cada uno hará lo que le parezca oportuno. 

Si he entendido bien lo que decía Cintia, el bañarse con los niños no tiene nada que ver con su educación sexual. Yo creo que si los niños tienen una cierta edad sí tiene mucho que ver con eso. Puede ser una educación acertada o desacertada, eso sólo el tiempo lo dirá. Si simplemente quieres enseñarle a tu hijo cómo bañarse, no es necesario que te bañes con él. Me parece a mí, vamos.


----------



## Kajjo

It's a pity that all those foreros who have posted in English cannot follow the thread anymore.

Kajjo


----------



## xrayspex

Kajjo said:


> It's a pity that all those foreros who have posted in English cannot follow the thread anymore.
> 
> Kajjo


 
You can cheat.  My spanish is horrible. 

http://translate.google.com/transla...fe=off&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=/language_tools


----------



## badgrammar

Kajjo said:


> It's a pity that all those foreros who have posted in English cannot follow the thread anymore.
> 
> Kajjo



That's okay, maybe some could not follow in English, or some could follow but did not feel comfortable writing in English.  

We raised our boy and girl taking baths together and with us.  Nudity is not an issue in our house, the bathroom door is rarely shut, unless non-family members are around.  I bathed with my boy until he was 5 or so, the very last time he was probably 6.  Then I guess we both felt it was time to stop doing it and that just  came naturally, without any discussion.  My girl is 6 and she sometimes climbs in the tub with me, since we're both girls I don't see any discomfort (other than tub size) arising from that.  She still loves to get in with her Dad, too, but I imagine that will taper off.  He and the boy no longer bather together either, there's just not enough room.

When they were babies, it was such a great experience, especially for their Dad, to hold them and play in the tub, all that yummy skin contact and bonding.  We have an enormous collection of kid-parent tub photos in our boxes of old pictures!  It is also way easier to bather a baby when you're with him or her.  

I'm sure some people have an aversion to it, be it for hygiene (shared water) or other reasons, but we've really enjoyed the years of sharing a bath with the little ones.  And I agree that it helps kids to see the body as something natural, makes it easier for them to ask questions, to understand what their own bodies and those of the opposite sex will look like as they develop.


----------



## Cintia&Martine

Hola:

Ya sé que mi inglés deja que desear , Heidita, pero parece que estamos de acuerdo en este punto . 


> porque quieren enseñar a los hijos que la desnudez es algo natural


Es lo que intentaba decir:


> naturel behaviour about naked bodies.


----------



## Venezuelan_sweetie

No way!!!  I'm the first 'Latina' to be posting in here? Waow... 

Well, seeing my parents' nudity would have been the worst, most twisted sin I could ever perpetrate against them -and against authority itself. Even though most of my generation found it normal, taking a bath with my parents would have been like, say, interrupting them while having sex! 

I remember taking showers with my little brother when we were kids (he's only two years younger than me), but mummy had full clothes on, _every_ time we took a bath. _I just remembered how she'd kick us out when she had finished bathing us and then lock herself in, since it was 'her turn to bathe'..._

As a child, I developed self-consciousness and body awareness a bit earlier than expected. That, added to all the mystery around being naked -even in the shower- ocassioned that the last brother-sister showers our mother forced us into were sheer torture to me!

However, my 4-year-old baby and I often take showers together, and so far he doesn't find anything odd in a naked body. Our bathroom doors do have locks, but my baby was taught not to _*ever*_ lock the door when he's alone in there (it's safer). I do lock it when I'm in, though...


----------



## alexacohen

heidita said:


> Francamente, Alexa, tu caso me parece más bien una excepción, no la norma en este país. Quizás debería serlo, pero que no lo es, me costa.
> 
> Ten en cuenta que la opinión de Maruja es de una mujer joven de 44 años.


I don't know if I'm the exception or not, Heidita. Of course Maruja is right, nothing should be imposed on them if they are in any way not comfortable. But I think that it is important that kids feel nakedness is natural, and body functions are natural. 
Alexa


----------



## JazzByChas

In general, I didn't take showers with my children when they were young...I gave them baths, until they were old enough to give themselves a bath or shower.

I would not have had a problem with it when they were less than 5, although I agree that I would probably have only done it with my son(s).  Would leave the daughters to their mother.

I am not afraid to tell children about the human anatomy at a young age, but sharing a bath or shower past about 5 is not necessary, and is where modesty comes in.


----------



## RIU

Hola:

En cuanto a bañarse con los crios no creo sea necesario para educación sexual ni para enseñarles a bañarse.

Como mucho de vosotros no tenemos pestillo en el baño así que por decirlo de alguna forma la entrada no está restringida. Cuando los crios son pequeños no le veo problema, sino al contrario, como apunta "..," (Robert?) es por seguridad. Niños y niñas juntos y arrea que la mayoria de dias no hay mucho tiempo. 

Otra cuestión es cuando estos ya son de adolescentes en adelante. A esta edad ya hay otras cuestiones a tener en cuenta aunque sea entre hermanos. ¿Como lo haceis? ¿Que planteamientos habeis seguido? ¿Que teneis pensado hecer? ¿Ya se verá cuando llegue el momento?


----------



## .   1

badgrammar said:


> When they were babies, it was such a great experience, especially for their Dad, to hold them and play in the tub, all that yummy skin contact and bonding.


Sigh! Gee I miss those days. I doubt that it is a coincidence that I have such a close relationship with my now 19 year old daughter.
Our family has been open and honest and had no secrets (that she could possibly be aware of) kept from her or locked doors or confusion.
When she asked a question we answered simply and honestly. Some call that brutal honesty but we call it life.
Honesty should not hurt.



badgrammar said:


> We have an enormous collection of kid-parent tub photos in our boxes of old pictures!


Yup and we are just about at the stage where we will mock embarass her with her mates.
We have a lovely photo of a time we were living in a very hot desert region. Mum and bub are standing at the kitchen bench wearing beaming smiles and only an apron each. Nothing on display but a couple of lovely butts but we love it.



badgrammar said:


> It is also way easier to bather a baby when you're with him or her.


And sooo much safer.
It is difficult to not drop a squirmy little soapy bundle if you are bending over the tub but when both are down and in the tub together there is no such danger.

.,,


----------



## PABLO DE SOTO

I am sure I am old fashioned but I think children should keep a bit of innocence,as children used to keep when I was a child.
They don't need to know everything about sex and nudity when they are too young.
They will discover it
througout the time,and this discovery is part of growing up.
To me, it's part of the mystery of life.
When I was a child I used to go to a swimming pool and I used the women changing rooms,where cubicles had doors and no women showed their nudity,but when boys were old enough (at 10 or so) they passed to the men changing rooms where all men were nude and showers had no door.
I remember I was shocked the first day I used the men changing room.
I had never seen a naked man,but next days everything became all right and I learnt that men showed to each other with no problem,and I did it so.

It took a little more time to see a naked woman and I do remember that moment as well as part of being more than a child.
I have never seen my parents naked and I am "normal".I think my life as an adult hasn't been affected by this matter.
Would it be different if I had seen nudity since I was a baby?
I don't know.

I don't have children.I only have a two years niece and I don't feel like having a bath with her.


----------



## PABLO DE SOTO

Seguramente estoy anticuado pero creo que los niños deben mantener un poco de inocencia,como sucedía con los niños de mi época.
No necesitan saber todo del sexo o de la desnudez cuando son demasiado pequeños.
Ya lo descubrirán con el tiempo y ese descubrimiento forma parte del hecho de crecer.Para mí es parte del misterio de la vida.
Cuando yo era pequeño iba a una piscina donde usaba el vestuario de mujeres donde las mujeres nunca se mostraban desnudas y las duchas tenían puertas,pero cuando los niños se hacían mayores,a los diez años o así,pasaban al vestuario de hombres donde éstos estaban desnudos y las duchas no tenían puertas.
La primera vez me impresionó.Nunca había visto un hombre desnudo,pero los días posteriores ya lo vi normal y actué como ellos.
Tardé un poco más en ver a una mujer desnuda y lo recuerdo como algo que hacía que dejase de ser un niño.
Yo nunca he visto a mis padres desnudos y creo que soy "normal" y que ese hecho no ha afectado a mi vida como adulto.
¿Hubiese sido diferente si hubiera visto gente desnuda durante toda mi infancia?
No lo sé.

No tengo hijos.Sólo tengo una sobrina de dos años y no me apetece bañarme con ella.


----------



## Maruja14

Pablo, gracias por la traducción y por la opinión. Estoy de acuerdo contigo. Yo tampoco tengo problemas, creo, ni los he tenido. ¿Sería de otra forma si me hubieran educado de otra forma? Pues no lo sé, pero no veo por qué experimentar con mis hijos. Seguro que les va igual de bien que a mí.

Pido disculpas a los que no entienden español, pero los que no escribimos en inglés tenemos pocas oportunidades de participar en este foro cultural. Yo más o menos con trabajo puedo entender el inglés escrito, pero escribirlo por mí misma me resulta imposible. Disculpas de nuevo.


----------



## .   1

Gracias.

.,,


----------



## ROSANGELUS

Hola a todos, Hola Sweety...
Yo jamas me bañe con mis padres, soy la menor de seis hermanos, y tampoco me bañé con mis hermanos, pero si con mi hermana. Al igual que Pablo y maruja, pues pienso que soy muy normal, no tengo ningun problema, trauma, mal recuerdo, ni nada en eso.
Por el contrario, en la actualidad y hace muy pocos años, me sucede diferente, les comento, tengo dos hijos, el pequeño de 6 años, al cual quiero hacer alusión desde siempre nos bañamos juntos, a veces con el Padre, a veces los dos solos, y normalmente me gusta bañarlo yo a él, tal vez soy demasiado sobreprotectora pero me gusta hacerlo así. Lo que viene al caso es que yo veo a mis hijos de lo mas normales, tanto el hijo grande como el pequeño lo ven como algo normal, cuando se trata de su madre o su padre ( claro mi hijo grande hace mucho dejo de hacerlo), pero como algo natural, mi hijo de 6 años rechaza el bañarse con otras personas incluso primas, primos de su edad, desde hace mas o menos un año, y pienso que es natural por que esta comenzando a sentir pudor y simplemente se lo respetamos.
Creo que todo depende de como se le muestren o expliquen las cosas, por qué somos diferentes, por qué tenemos vellos, por qué el pene de él es más pequeño que el del padre, etc. nosotros siempre respondemos con naturalidad y con la verdad (de manera que entienda claro) sin estar inventando cuenticos infantiles, de verdad que actualmente ellos reciben mucha información y es mejor que confien en nosotros sus padres.
Gracias a Dios, hasta ahora no hemos tenido problemas, simplemente pienso que son épocas diferentes (por eso creo que no me afecto para nada el ir descubriendo sola los misterios de la sexualidad) pero actualmente hay que tratar de ser lo más natural posible al hablar claro con nuestros hijos, ya que los medios, y el entorno, no nos ayudan mucho a dejarlo para despues.

saludos
Rosa


----------



## Kajjo

PABLO DE SOTO said:


> I am sure I am old fashioned but I think children should keep a bit of innocence,as children used to keep when I was a child.


To the contrary, I believe that artificially creating a mystery around nakedness is taking away innocence from the child. Isn't non-awareness of nakedness real innocence? Feeling normal and relaxed about your body?



> They don't need to know everything about sex and nudity when they are too young.


Young children will take nudity as normal and not at all as something sexual, arousing or disturbing. Such feelings are produced by prudish behaviour and by creating mysteries where in fact are none.



> They will discover it througout the time,and this discovery is part of growing up.


There is still enough new to discover in puberty. 

Kajjo


----------



## alexacohen

RIU said:


> Hola:
> 
> En cuanto a bañarse con los crios no creo sea necesario para educación sexual ni para enseñarles a bañarse.
> 
> Como mucho de vosotros no tenemos pestillo en el baño así que por decirlo de alguna forma la entrada no está restringida. Cuando los crios son pequeños no le veo problema, sino al contrario, como apunta "..," (Robert?) es por seguridad. Niños y niñas juntos y arrea que la mayoria de dias no hay mucho tiempo.
> 
> Otra cuestión es cuando estos ya son de adolescentes en adelante. A esta edad ya hay otras cuestiones a tener en cuenta aunque sea entre hermanos. ¿Como lo haceis? ¿Que planteamientos habeis seguido? ¿Que teneis pensado hecer? ¿Ya se verá cuando llegue el momento?


Riu, I cannot speak for everyone here. I have not planned anything. I just carry on as I think I should, and no more. 
Alexa


----------



## AngelEyes

Well, let me dip my American toe in the deep end of this pool of thought.

Never in a million years would I have allowed my son to shower with me after a certain age. It's just not done here in America, especially after the age of 4-5. Even that age is too old for that type of thing, in general.

You also respect everybody's privacy, so when the bathroom door's closed, that means you stay the hell out, or you knock first and wait for permission to enter. I'm speaking here more of a parent in there and the kid outside the bathroom.

I used to bathe with my brothers, and my son used to shower with his female cousin. But, like I said, that stopped real fast as they approached 4 or 5 years of age.

Also, if an American father were still bathing with his 5-6-7 year old daughter, I believe, over-all, it would not only be frowned upon, but possibly reported and investigated.

This is not a moral judgment on any of your cultural behaviors. This is just a fact of life in the USA.

We are raised to respect the body as ours and no one else's, and that includes the option of who sees it, who touches it, and who bathes it...and this starts at an extremely early age.

Everybody's different.


*AngelEyes*


----------



## .   1

RIU said:


> Hola:
> 
> En cuanto a bañarse con los crios no creo sea necesario para educación sexual ni para enseñarles a bañarse.
> 
> Como mucho de vosotros no tenemos pestillo en el baño así que por decirlo de alguna forma la entrada no está restringida. Cuando los crios son pequeños no le veo problema, sino al contrario, como apunta "..," (Robert?) es por seguridad. Niños y niñas juntos y arrea que la mayoria de dias no hay mucho tiempo.
> 
> Otra cuestión es cuando estos ya son de adolescentes en adelante. A esta edad ya hay otras cuestiones a tener en cuenta aunque sea entre hermanos. ¿Como lo haceis? ¿Que planteamientos habeis seguido? ¿Que teneis pensado hecer? ¿Ya se verá cuando llegue el momento?


'Tis very poor form to be publicly discussed but in terms that I can not possibly comprehend.
I know that I am egotistical and self centered but to see ".,," and (Robert?) so close together causes me pause to wonder what I have done.

Is a translation possible?

.,, (Robert)


----------



## rom30_six

Yeah...I share views same as *Angel eyes*, most likely because I am American too.

And that "bathing time" as sex education? No. Entirely different.

Sex education is about using your genitals.
Family bathing time is family time with your genitals exposed.(Ages 6-8 Max)

It's very nice to know some cultures like the Japanese and others have a relaxed attitude about family members "nakedness" during a casual sauna or bath. It is also nice to know family has a huge place in life. But personally, maybe because I am American, I would find it kind of awkward. 

I played on team sports, and yes, we do shower in the same change rooms and sometimes there were brothers on the team. But it's not like we stand in there and take in the scenery, we go in, wash, and get out.
We wrap in towels, then we can really relax, given still in the change room. This goes for saunas as well. 

And for the opposite sex.

When guys talk about the first girl they saw naked, its usually a girlfriend, friend, or romantic encounter. Here it is strange if you said, "My mother and sister" even stranger if you said "My father and brother".

As little kids, sure no problem! We probably all have, but don't remember. (Thank God).When older? Awkwardness. Everything is still normal, just going to be a little weird at the kitchen table during dinner time.

My Conclusion is ; In America & Canada ,

Siblings seeing each other "naked" is, awkward, maybe even extremely, but if it happens it's not a _huge_ deal. But it is highly avoided as age increases.

When seeing parents naked. It is beyond awkward. _Almost_ "traumatic" if you will. It is one of those "never-to-do" things.

I wish we were more accepting to family members like some cultures, but the fact of the matter is, this is the North American culture.


----------



## Musical Chairs

PABLO DE SOTO said:


> I am sure I am old fashioned but I think children should keep a bit of innocence,as children used to keep when I was a child.
> They don't need to know everything about sex and nudity when they are too young.
> They will discover it
> througout the time,and this discovery is part of growing up.
> To me, it's part of the mystery of life.
> When I was a child I used to go to a swimming pool and I used the women changing rooms,where cubicles had doors and no women showed their nudity,but when boys were old enough (at 10 or so) they passed to the men changing rooms where all men were nude and showers had no door.
> I remember I was shocked the first day I used the men changing room.
> I had never seen a naked man,but next days everything became all right and I learnt that men showed to each other with no problem,and I did it so.
> 
> It took a little more time to see a naked woman and I do remember that moment as well as part of being more than a child.
> I have never seen my parents naked and I am "normal".I think my life as an adult hasn't been affected by this matter.
> Would it be different if I had seen nudity since I was a baby?
> I don't know.
> 
> I don't have children.I only have a two years niece and I don't feel like having a bath with her.



I think the only reason people would say that nudity is NOT innocent is, they associate nudity with sex. Nude is how we _all_ are when we are brought into the world. When I think of the word "nudity," I think of "natural" and "comfortable," not "sex." There's nothing mysterious about it, because when all is said and done, people pretty much look the same! I don't think bodies are _traumatizing_, even if they are fat or they have a bad burn or there is something else different about them. Parents take naked pictures of their babies all the time. And I think especially for a mother, bathing with her child would be a very beautiful, positive bonding experience.

In Japan, I've never in my life heard of anyone being anorexic, and we have one of the (or the) lowest teen pregnancy rates. I know people care about their health, but I don't personally know of anyone who is or has been on a diet (and yet we have the longest life expectancy). Sometimes I think that maybe our attitude towards nudity has something to do with it. It is true that on average, people are more comfortable with their bodies, people see naked bodies more often, and approaches towards relationships are different.


----------



## .   1

Musical Chairs said:


> I think the only reason people would say that nudity is NOT innocent is, they associate nudity with sex. Nude is how we _all_ are when we are brought into the world. When I think of the word "nudity," I think of "natural" and "comfortable," not "sex."


Absolutely.  I couldn't have said it better myself.



Musical Chairs said:


> There's nothing mysterious about it, because when all is said and done, people pretty much look the same! I don't think bodies are _traumatizing_, even if they are fat or they have a bad burn or there is something else different about them.


There is only the possibility of mystery or trauma if it is created by the imagination in this area.



Musical Chairs said:


> Parents take naked pictures of their babies all the time. And I think especially for a mother, bathing with her child would be a very beautiful, positive bonding experience.


Just as much for dad as well.



Musical Chairs said:


> In Japan, I've never in my life heard of anyone being anorexic, and we have one of the (or the) lowest teen pregnancy rates. I know people care about their health, but I don't personally know of anyone who is or has been on a diet (and yet we have the longest life expectancy). Sometimes I think that maybe our attitude towards nudity has something to do with it. It is true that on average, people are more comfortable with their bodies, people see naked bodies more often, and approaches towards relationships are different.


I understand that the relaxed body image is a big positive but I am confused about relationships being different.
What do you mean by this?

.,,


----------



## Musical Chairs

Sometimes I think that since seeing naked bodies is so new or so shocking (especially of the opposite sex), this encourages young people to explore more than if they'd been seeing naked bodies all along. I was surprised to hear of people in the US already going out in 4th grade or hearing A eating out B in seventh grade (you parents would be surprised what goes on so early). The girls (in 5th-6th grade) I knew in Japan had crushes on boys sometimes, but I heard nothing of the sort like going out so early, not to mention engaging in sexual activity already. People don't make out in the halls (unheard of) or put their hands on each others' butts and stuff.

This may have been just where I went to school, but we had days when we had our height/weight measured and everyone knew how tall everyone was and how much everyone weighed. It was no secret.


----------



## .   1

Musical Chairs said:


> Sometimes I think that since seeing naked bodies is so new or so shocking (especially of the opposite sex), this encourages young people to explore more than if they'd been seeing naked bodies all along.


Thanks.  Yes I understand exactly where you are coming from.
With no mystery there is no rebellion.

.,,


----------



## badgrammar

Being an expat American, I certainly am aware that the North American view on nudity is that it is not only bad but also a sexually charged thing.  While here you see naked breasts on tv and in advertizing, there it totally taboo, and of course, the idea of a man bathing with his 6 year old daughter (especially with Mom taking pictures) would definitely cause neighbors and whoever else is involved to suspect the worst and call police, child social services whatever. 

But remember, Rom and Angeleyes, that the incidence of sexual assault in the US (don't know about Canada) is about 3 times higher than France.  That the average age for losing one's virginity here in France is about 3 or 4 years older than in the US.  CHildren don't tend to grow up nearly so fast here, in any case not sexually.  If being at the beach or swimming pool counts as "bathing", then seeing the breasts of your mother, sister, aunt, grandmother, etc. is pretty normal, and does not result in trauma, promiscuity, etc.  

It is certainly not any part of "sexual education", except that you see how real bodies look, and you accept them.  Maybe, as Musical suggests, this de-mystification does help certain societies to have healthier body images.  Sometimes what you imagine but cannot see is far more harmful than what you can see without complex, and therefore understand.  

I am actually sorry that in my home country it is that way, and it is yet another reason I feel so much more at home elsewhere.  And you have to wonder, given the problems of obesity, anorexia, sexual violence, violence in general, and sexual activity that begins at such a young age, just to name a few issues...  Is there not something fundamentally screwed up and unhealthy about American society?  But that, I know, is another thread entirely


----------



## badgrammar

Musical expresses it all very well in her posts...  Bravo!



Musical Chairs said:


> I think the only reason people would say that nudity is NOT innocent is, they associate nudity with sex. Nude is how we _all_ are when we are brought into the world. When I think of the word "nudity," I think of "natural" and "comfortable," not "sex." There's nothing mysterious about it, because when all is said and done, people pretty much look the same! I don't think bodies are _traumatizing_, even if they are fat or they have a bad burn or there is something else different about them. Parents take naked pictures of their babies all the time. And I think especially for a mother, bathing with her child would be a very beautiful, positive bonding experience.
> 
> In Japan, I've never in my life heard of anyone being anorexic, and we have one of the (or the) lowest teen pregnancy rates. I know people care about their health, but I don't personally know of anyone who is or has been on a diet (and yet we have the longest life expectancy). Sometimes I think that maybe our attitude towards nudity has something to do with it. It is true that on average, people are more comfortable with their bodies, people see naked bodies more often, and approaches towards relationships are different.


----------



## RIU

. said:


> 'Tis very poor form to be publicly discussed but in terms that I can not possibly comprehend.
> I know that I am egotistical and self centered but to see ".,," and (Robert?) so close together causes me pause to wonder what I have done.


 
Could you explain it? I don't understand exactly the sense. I used .., and Robert because reading it, it seems a tipografic mistake. And if it have disturbed you, accept my apologizes for that.

In reference to bathing with children, I believe that it is not necessary for sexual education nor teach they to wash themselves.

As some of you we haven't bolt in bathroom, so we have no restricted entry. While children are young I don't see any problem, on the contrary, as have said .., it's for safety. Boys and girls at the same time and, quickly! because majority of days we haven't time.

Another thing is when they are adolescent. At this age exist another questions to consider. What sort of raising have you consider? Have you think what do you do when arrive this moment?


----------



## Kajjo

AngelEyes said:


> You also respect everybody's privacy, so when the bathroom door's closed, that means you stay the hell out, or you knock first and wait for permission to enter. I'm speaking here more of a parent in there and the kid outside the bathroom.


I and my parents always entered bathrooms without any hesitation or knocking. We regularly used a sauna together when I was a kid and teenager. It made discussing puberty changes very easy. I consider my closest family as intimate. It is the same when caring for each other when sick -- you cannot avoid seeing nakedness and much more intimate things then. I do the same with my partner and will surely do so with my children. In bathrooms and sauna nothing mysterious is happening anyway. 



> I used to bathe with my brothers, and my son used to shower with his female cousin. But, like I said, that stopped real fast as they approached 4 or 5 years of age.


In Germany even nudist beaches are quite common and as kids we surely bathed naked in the ocean.



> This is not a moral judgment on any of your cultural behaviors. This is just a fact of life in the USA.


Very important. The same applies vice versa, of course! 

Kajjo


----------



## badgrammar

I think that children develop a sense of modesty, say around age 8,9,10, and then they naturally want to cover up.  Also, with children of the opposite sex, it is different than with children of the same sex.  But it is very much cultural differences, I do not think one side is right and the other wrong.  But you should know that it is very possible to grow up to be normal, healthy and happy (and no more promiscuous than anyone else) having seen people naked all your life.  

Nudity does not equal sexuality.

P.S Just to add, I would never dream of going to a nudist/naturist colony, so this is not about "nudists", rather about having occasional nakedness (in the bath or when dressing) being a normal part of life within the intimacy of one's home and within the family.


----------



## Kajjo

badgrammar said:


> The incidence of sexual assault in the US is about 3 times higher than France.  That the average age for losing one's virginity here in France is about 3 or 4 years older than in the US.  If being at the beach or swimming pool counts as "bathing", then seeing the breasts of your mother, sister, aunt, grandmother, etc. is pretty normal, and does not result in trauma, promiscuity.


I have never understood how the Americans combine to be extremely prudish and very early engaged in sex with each other. Those two behaviours appeared incompatible to me. But maybe the latter is actually a consequence of the first? Who knows.

Kajjo


----------



## Hutschi

Hi, I see this is slightly off topic, but may be it is connected - it is only not in the bath room but in a bath swim at a beach.
In Germany, and especially in the GDR, "FKK" (Freikörperkultur, naturism - i do not know the exact english word) was very common when going to take a bath in the see. This did not depend on age or gender. 

After the unification, FKK areas became much more separated and restricted.

It was considered normal to take a bath this way. It was also shown in TV.

I will open a new topic on this, in case it is too much off topic.

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?p=2687291#post2687291


----------



## badgrammar

Kajjo said:


> I have never understood how the Americans combine to be extremely prudish and very early engaged in sex with each other. Those two behaviours appeared incompatible to me. But maybe the latter is actually a consequence of the first? Who knows.
> 
> Kajjo



That has been my impression, as by hiding and forbidding and suppressing things such as nudity, they become titillating, mysterious, desirable and frustrating.  You can see a woman's breast hidden by the small triangle of her bikini top, but not the breast itself.  It becomes forbidden fruit, something dangerous, exciting by the fact that you cannot see or have it, and terribly frustrating by the same token.  It is removed from the realm of the normal and elevated (or lowered) to something inherently sexual or dirty.


----------



## Venezuelan_sweetie

Kajjo said:


> ...It is the same when caring for each other when sick -- you cannot avoid seeing nakedness and much more intimate things then. I do the same with my partner and will surely do so with my children.


I'm sorry for editing your post, Kajjo (for space's sake  ). 

You know, that's very interesting. I've had to take care of several convalescent relatives, which included bathing and dressing them. They all *hated *the fact that I had to see them naked. The worst one? My mother. She even cried and mourned whenever it was 'bath time'. She'd say I was taking revenge for her firm discipline, or something.  I definitely don't want that with my children! I think I'll be moving to Japan some time soon, then... 


Musical Chairs said:


> In Japan, I've never in my life heard of anyone being anorexic, and we have one of the (or the) lowest teen pregnancy rates. I know people care about their health, but I don't personally know of anyone who is or has been on a diet (and yet we have the longest life expectancy). Sometimes I think that maybe our attitude towards nudity has something to do with it. It is true that on average, people are more comfortable with their bodies, people see naked bodies more often, and approaches towards relationships are different.


Yes, I agree: it is possible that seeing naked bodies since ever, actually helps you be more comfortable with your own body, therefore you should be better qualified to accept yourself and others, plus feeling natural and comfortable around other people.


Kajjo said:


> To the contrary, I believe that artificially creating a mystery around nakedness is taking away innocence from the child. Isn't non-awareness of nakedness real innocence? Feeling normal and relaxed about your body?(...)Young children will take nudity as normal and not at all as something sexual, arousing or disturbing. Such feelings are produced by prudish behaviour and by creating mysteries where in fact are none.


Totally agree.





ROSANGELUS said:


> Hola a todos, Hola Sweety...


Hola, paisana! Gracias por compartir tu experiencia. Es cierto que en nuestra cultura, la desnudez no se acepta fácilmente (excepto en el cine nacional, je je). Imagínate: ver a los padres desnudos en edad consciente era totalmente inaceptable en nuestra época. Qué interesante, que las dos tratemos a nuestros hijos de forma que a nuestros padres les hubiera escandalizado en sus tiempos. Creo que tienes razón: los tiempos cambian.
---
In English: Thanks for sharing your experience with us. Yes, it's true: our culture doesn't take nudity as something acceptable, let alone normal (except in national movie productions). In our times, seeing your parents' naked bodies was absolutelly wrong and morally inacceptable. It is interesting, however, that we both do things in a different way with our children (I mean, in a different way than our predecessors, who would have been outraged at our methods). I think you're right: time changes what we consider 'standard'.


----------



## AngelEyes

I am suspicious of the crime figures from other countries that seem to support the fact that those cultures exposed to nudity from an early age result in lower violence statistics.

I just read an interesting analysis concerning Australia that indicates that only 36% of females victims of physical assault and 19% of female victims of sexual assault report them. HERE

So is the reason the USA seems to lead everybody in crime statistics not because of our prudish attitude toward the body and respecting its privacy, but because we have a high intolerance for abuse and don't hide it undercover? 

I'm not stating I believe this as fact at this point. I'm just stating my skepticism over making a connection between "Body openness" and a safer society.

Also, our attitude toward preserving privacy within the family unit arises not from our puritanical ideals, but just as an extension of our USA view that everybody has the right to their own space and personhood, and that's what we teach our children.

*AngelEyes*


----------



## Kajjo

badgrammar said:


> I think that children develop a sense of modesty, say around age 8,9,10, and then they naturally want to cover up.


I am not sure about this. I think it is all a very cultural thing and what you see how other people behave. 

I have not at all any feeling of modesty with regards to my parents or my girlfriend. I have feelings of modesty towards non-family. When I grew up I joined my parents in their sauna at every age and still do so. No "natural modesty" exists, I guess.

Kajjo


----------



## Kajjo

AngelEyes said:


> I am suspicious of the crime figures from other countries that seem to support the fact that those cultures exposed to nudity from an early age result in lower violence statistics. So is the reason the USA seems to lead everybody in crime statistics not because of our prudish attitude toward the body and respecting its privacy, but because we have a high intolerance for abuse and don't hide it undercover?


Generally, doubting statistics is a healthy start. Crime figures are particularly prone to be biased for a variety of reasons. Maybe you are right, maybe not. I have no idea, but I could somewhat follow the idea that "prohibition" favors "perpetration". 

However, the seconds statistical result mentioned was the _age of losing virginity _which is supposedly 3-4 years younger in the US. I regard this chain of thought as quite sensible, i.e. to desire the forbidden fruits compared to having a relaxed relation to nudity.



> Also, our attitude toward preserving privacy within the family unit arises not from our puritanical ideals, but just as an extension of our USA view that everybody has the right to their own space and personhood, and that's what we teach our children.


Maybe so. But how do you explain the strict bathing clothes regulation, the entire absence of nudity in TV? Personally, I do not see any connection between personhood and seeing your parents naked. I believe, it all just boils down to cultural habits which we have to accept.

Kajjo


----------



## badgrammar

AngelEyes said:


> I am suspicious of the crime figures from other countries that seem to support the fact that those cultures exposed to nudity from an early age result in lower violence statistics.*AngelEyes*


And you are right to be suspicious.  




AngelEyes said:


> So is the reason the USA seems to lead everybody in crime statistics not because of our prudish attitude toward the body and respecting its privacy, but because we have a high intolerance for abuse and don't hide it undercover? *AngelEyes*



That may be part of it, but having grown up in the US and having been a victim myself and knowing others having gone through the same thing, the remarkable lack of even anecdotal reports of sexual violence here in France is a marked difference from the constant fear of sexual assault that women have in the US.  Women here just don't have to worry about it _*as much*_, because the occurence is much less frequent. 



AngelEyes said:


> Also, our attitude toward preserving privacy within the family unit arises not from our puritanical ideals, but just as an extension of our USA view that everybody has the right to their own space and personhood, and that's what we teach our children.*AngelEyes*



Ok, but privacy within the family also makes of the family unit an intimate unit, where nakedness need not be an issue, and need not infringe on anybody's space or personhood.  It is not the nakedness, but how it is interpreted.  If seeing your Mom's butt is about as shocking/tantalising/traumtic as seeing her knee, then it really is no big deal.  However, if in the US a little girl climbs in the bath with her Dad, and a neighbor calls the police about it, is that respecting your family's personal space and privacy? 

Growing up we never saw our parents naked or bathed together.  But in my own little family, in our tiny little apartment, it just seems natural that we not worry about it too much.


----------



## AngelEyes

Badgrammar,

First of all, I really have great sympathy for the violent experience you've had to endure in your past. That makes you eminently qualified over me to say what you say.

I still have the instinct, though, to retain my skepticism regarding putting a linkage between the USA's general stand on nudity and exactly how that affects the outcome of crime statistics in our country.

We're all about freedom in the US: personal, professional, general freedom. People from foreign countries may scoff at what they perceive as our self-delusion, but the fact still remains that we basically believe in those rights.

And there is a great wave of public awareness at this time of protecting our children. I can tell you, Kajjo, that if I knew of father who bathed with his seven year old daughter, I'd be highly suspicious of that man. And, probably at her school, that same little girl is getting educated what is and isn't appropriate behavior by an adult, including what her father is doing.

I remember being seven years old, and I can tell you I wouldn't want to be anywhere near my naked father.

As far as our TV programs and our movies...yes...we are a very complicated people over here. Also, whether or not we embrace public nudity is just one layer of our cultural differences and upbringings.

We'd have to re-arrange our whole society to successfully incorporate public nudity and acceptable family nudity into it at this point in time.

It's not going to happen anytime soon.


*AngelEyes*


----------



## Venezuelan_sweetie

badgrammar said:


> Growing up we never saw our parents naked or bathed together. But in my own little family, in our tiny little apartment, it just seems natural that we not worry about it too much.


That's interesting. It first ocurred me to think that such a difference was because your family is in France now, where people wouldn't find it as shocking as in the USA. But then, I thought: maybe it's a generational thing, too?

I'd love to hear: what was it like in France, to bathe with your kids some 10, 20, 30 years ago? Was it just as normal as it is now?  How was the whole 'nudity at home' issue handled?


----------



## Poetic Device

I bathe with my daughter because it is a lot easier to wash the both of us together rather than one at a time.  I am able to hold her and keep an eye on her without depriving myself hygenal care.  When the boys come into the world, it's going to be a little harder.  If there was just one of them I would bring him in as well because of convenience (and he does not know better).  But that would stop after about a year.


----------



## badgrammar

Venezuala, I don't know what it was like some 20 or 30 years ago - and indeed I don't know if our family's habits are representative of what other families here do.  Most likely not, alteast not beyond babyhood.  I think much of it is generational, and also just something we do because we really enjoy baths and bathtime in general, even had an extra-large tub installed when we built here.  

Angeleyes, I understand things are not about to change in the US.  That's the way it is now, that's the way it was when i was raised in the 70's, and that's the way it's going to stay, surely.  But there is something odd about precocious sexuality in the US, the prevalence of sexual violence, and all the tabou surrounding the human body - while at the same time you can go to Baltimore's family-oriented inner harbor and eat at a place like Hooter's, people said their children were traumatized by catching a glimpse of Jackson's breast at the superbowl, and mothers nurse with their breast and baby hidden under a shawl like it was indecent...  I don't have any proof, but I do think there is an unhealthy connection there.  And if the US is "all about freedom", then what about the freedom to be relaxed about the human body, and not equate it with sexuality?  That is an important part of freedom to me.  But that's just my opinion.


----------



## AngelEyes

I think a lot of our problems with sexual violence in this country stem from alcohol and drug abuse - both legal and illegal substances, not our so-called puritanical and seemingly inconsistent embarrassments with our bodies.

As far as not equating sexuality with the human body...well, if I'm looking at a naked man, I'm not listening to his philosophical ideas or admiring his pretty eyes; I'm checking out his package.

The objections in this country over Janet Jackson's bare breast wasn't just viewed from a religious point of view. It was the hypocrisy that she performed under - that it was an accident. That same hypocrisy about Hooters and how it's promoted as a family restaurant is what helps me decide never to go into one. I don't object to the use of sex to sell stuff. I just want the person who's selling it to be upfront about it.

As for breastfeeding, I have no problem with that in public. Most mothers are very subtle about it over here. If I see one that's not, I still don't care.

And I have to be honest here, even though it may brand me as some kind of dinosaur, if I had seen my father, brothers, uncles, or male cousins naked when I was 5 years old and older, I have just one word for it: eeeuuuwww.

Badgrammar, I'm sure you have a much broader perspective on all of this because you've lived outside the USA for a while. I think you're quite lucky, actually. 


*AngelEyes*


----------



## Venezuelan_sweetie

badgrammar said:


> *Venezuala*, (it's *Venezuela*, my dear...  ) I don't know what it was like some 20 or 30 years ago - and indeed I don't know if our family's habits are representative of what other families here do. Most likely not, alteast not beyond babyhood. I think much of it is generational, and also just something we do because we really enjoy baths and bathtime in general, even had an extra-large tub installed when we built here.


An extra-large tub? That's nice!  I sort of envy you, heh heh.  

And, what does your husband say?  Were his parents so keen on bathtime?  It's just that I think we've hit an interesting key in here.  Maybe, there's more than the cultural aspect to the whole "parent and child in the bathroom" subject.  Maybe it's also about generations.  Maybe nowadays it is easier for people like Rosangelus, you, and me, to bathe with their kids because of the times we're on, or because of our cultural exposure, or because we face more cultural exposure in the times we're on...   Am I making any sense?


----------



## badgrammar

Why do I consistently spell your name and the name of your country with an a?  This is not the first time!

Nope, his parents are not at all that kind of folk, although I know his mom never minded if he saw her changing or whatever.  That even happened a couple years back, i was a bit surprised, I don't know why, but he wasn't.  Nothing exciting or especially repulsive about being in the same room when your mom has to change clothes.  

It probably is generational, and probably also stems from the fact that I am a bathaholic, and that when they were tiny babes I used to say to him "Why don't you two hop in the tub?", and they'd spend a half hour in there playing and bonding and washing...  Especially for a Dad this is cool because it is a great opportunity to relax and spend close time with a baby, and enjoy some of that oh-so-important skin to skin contact.  During that time, I would generally go take a break and tend to chores.

And I guess it just was very enjoyable for all of us, and while it has stopped with my son completely, my daughter will still hop in the bath while her Dad's in there, and they laugh and squirt water at eachother, throw washcloths and giggle and play and make a huuuuge mess.  Or after a hard day's work, he'll come home and she's in there and he hops in.  Not everyday, mind you maybe a couple of times a month. 

On a side note, our place is small.  The bathroom is actually the only way to get to the office, you have to go through it.  The office has no door.  So if you're in the office, you've got full view of the bathroom. (toilet is seperate).  The washer/dryer are also in the bathroom.  If no visitors are around, we never close the door, and whoever is there strolls in and out at will, doing laundry, or on the computer or sitting to talk with whoever's in the bath, or whatever.  So it is not like some far-away corner of the house where you would only go if you have specific bathroom business to do.  So there is no doubt about what is going on in there, everything is quite "public" inside the house. 

Maybe all these factors combined have influenced that.  The together baths are fewer and farther between now than they used to be, and I'm sure it will one day stop altogether.  But I have no qualms about it, and the children certainly don't think of it as strange or find it odd to see us in the buff.


----------



## .   1

badgrammar said:


> However, if in the US a little girl climbs in the bath with her Dad, and a neighbor calls the police about it, is that respecting your family's personal space and privacy?


The big question there is to find out how the neighbour found out and why the neighbour is interested and why the neighbour is confronted by such perfectly normal behaviour.

This reference of such behaviour being reported to authorities has me wondering.
Is it considered to be a social requirement to report a girl child in the tub with a father?
Is it considered to be a social requirement to report a boy child in the tub with a mother?

.,,


----------



## AngelEyes

.,,

Here's the conundrum. And I know you find it curious to even have to think about this, but it's true here in this country.

If a father is still bathing with his say, 8 year-old daughter, chances are he's not going to tell anyone about it, because he knows how it will "look" and be "accepted." Translation: IT WON'T BE a POSITIVE REACTION. So he doesn't tell anyone. Because he's doing something wrong? Or because he thinks it's nobody's bloody business?

And what of the little girl? Is she instructed not to say anything to her friends? Not to tell her teacher she and her dad still take baths together? If he's doing nothing wrong, then logically, she should be free to tell anyone she pleases. If he's "playing" with her while he's cleaning her, and he tells her it's just their little "special time" together and no one needs to know about it, you know kids aren't stupid. She'll know it's a bad secret to keep and she just might tell someone when they instruct all children about "inappropriate touching." She might well tell someone even if nothing bad is happening. Because I can tell you that most dads do NOT bathe with their 8 year old daughters in this country. 

So, it's very feasible someone could find out what's going on, whether it's bad or not.

In the USA, we are highly sensitized to the cruelty and abuse of children. If somehow, I found out some guy was taking a bath with his 8 year-old daughter, my radar would got up, and I have to tell you I'd investigate further, though I can't be specific on exactly what I'd do, considering this is just a made-up scenario.

If a teacher found out about this, well, I'm not sure. I'll have to ask some of my nieces what the protocol is for this type of thing.

See, in your world, this is perfectly normal behavior. In the USA, it's considered aberrant. Is it crazy or stupid or just plain archaic?

That's a matter of opinion, to which everyone is entitled.

By the way, how old was your daughter when you stopped bathing with her?


*AngelEyes*


----------



## Outsider

Perhaps I'm being naive, but this seems like a non-issue to me. First, I don't find anything perverse about parents bathing with their children (or anyone else)... necessarily. Of course, there are pathological cases, but you can have those without bathing together, too.

Secondly, my limited experience has been that children inevitably reach a period when they ask for privacy. If you let them choose freely, I believe they will give off sufficient signs when they don't want to bathe with mom or dad anymore. Just respect their wishes.


----------



## .   1

AngelEyes said:


> Here's the conundrum. And I know you find it curious to even have to think about this, but it's true here in this country.


Yeah. You are right. The concept is weirding me out.



AngelEyes said:


> In the USA, we are highly sensitized to the cruelty and abuse of children. If somehow, I found out some guy was taking a bath with his 8 year-old daughter, my radar would got up, and I have to tell you I'd investigate further, though I can't be specific on exactly what I'd do, considering this is just a made-up scenario.


You would know.
You would know just from the way the kid acted around the father.
There is a very special father daughter bond that involves total trust from the daughter and if that trust is ever violated it is obvious in the crippled relationship.
You would be able to smell it. It would be just wrong and this coupled with your suspicions about bathing would put you on high alert for a raised eyebrow or a half second pause before answering or any of the thousands of hints that you would be seeking and then you would be justified to blow the whistle and let slip the dogs of justice.



AngelEyes said:


> By the way, how old was your daughter when you stopped bathing with her?


I can't remember. It wasn't a 'thing'.
I never got into her bath. She always hijacked my bathtime.
I copped a very bad selection of physical injuries in February '92 so that would have been when it was interrupted.
We bought a spa about four years ago and we all bathe together and alone in that so I guess that we had a break of about 10 years because I couldn't move properly and everything hurt and my bathing was not pleasurable but therapeutic.
We still showered together at the same open beach shower and we still went skinny dipping at the beach sometimes.
I would have to sit under a scaldingly hot high pressure shower to try to get some neck and back and shoulder movement.
This was not a fun place for my baby girl.


.,,


----------



## .   1

Outsider said:


> Perhaps I'm being naive, but this seems like a non-issue to me. First, I don't find anything perverse about parents bathing with their children (or anyone else)... necessarily. Of course, there are pathological cases, but you can have those without bathing together, too.


You are only naive if you pronounce it 'logical'.



Outsider said:


> Secondly, my limited experience has been that children inevitably reach a period when they ask for privacy. If you let them choose freely, I believe they will give off sufficient signs when they don't want to bathe with mom or dad anymore. Just respect their wishes.


This is it. Respect the wishes of the individual.
I was the world's most perfect parent when I was single.
I knew all the answers and thought that parents with disruptive kids were idiots.
I knew how to train a dog and it was simple cause and effect. The Pavlovian response.
Tell the child to do something and give it a treat for doing it and 'Robert's yer muvver's bruvver' you have a perfectly 'trained' kid.

Then my little blob of protoplasm popped out and I lost any concept of 'training' her and just wanted her to live and learn and grow.
She taught me how to be a parent.
She taught me how to enjoy being a kid while I was helping her to become the gorgeous young adult I now have zipping to and fro in my life.

Those are the days.

.,,


----------



## AngelEyes

Thank you, Robert, for sharing such intimate details of your pain and your life.

Nothing about this whole subject is simple, is it?

It's unique and such a study in cultural contrasts, that it's an academic study that's so interesting just to read all the different inputs.

I think what people from other countries need to understand is what our motive is behind such a concentrated effort on proper behavior here. And that's the protection of children from sexual predators. It's a very big issue here at the moment, as well it should be.

We don't think of ourselves as puritans, just caring people who want what's best for our kids.

*AngelEyes*


----------



## Outsider

AngelEyes said:


> I think what people from other countries need to understand is what our motive is behind such a concentrated effort on proper behavior here. And that's the protection of children from sexual predators. It's a very big issue here at the moment, as well it should be.


It's a big issue everywhere, I'm afraid. 
The U.S. are just leading the race, as usual.


----------



## .   1

Outsider said:


> It's a big issue everywhere, I'm afraid.
> The U.S. are just leading the race, as usual.


Protection of children has been a big issue everywhere ever since we started having children.

.,,


----------



## Chaska Ñawi

Well, here's the viewpoint of one teacher.

If a prepubescent child mentioned that he or she shared a shower with a parent, I would file it away in a corner of my mind and get on with the day.

If that child displayed precocious sexual knowledge (not to be confused with anatomical knowledge) or fascination with things sexual, I would discuss it and the showering issue with a colleague and the principal.  It might lead to a telephone call.

If the child mentioned sexual interaction in the context of showering, whether being asked to touch genitalia, watch a parent stimulate him/her self, or something more involved, I would make that telephone call first and then report to the principal afterward.

I have to disagree with Robert about parental abuse being obvious.  It can go on for years without anybody catching on.  Conversely, one has to be careful not to jump to the abuse conclusion just from seeing a couple of incidents .... when you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

We bathed with our children when they were babies.  When they were toddlers they had their baths by themselves, but never missed an opportunity to join us in the tub when we were having our own baths.  By the time they were about three they just stopped joining us of their own volition, which was fine.


----------



## Chaska Ñawi

Moderator note:  Those people who wish to discuss the topic of child abuse and the reporting thereof may do so http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=470313.  Posts on the topic have been moved to this new thread.


----------



## Sagittarius

Heidita:
*Here in Spain, generally speaking, it would be a rather surprising behaviour. It is not considered "proper".*

I’m Spanish and I’m reading this I find it despise for the Spanish people. 

Voy a seguir en español porque mi inglés escrito es pésimo y pienso que no logro hacerme entender. Disculpad los angloparlantes. 

La forma en que has dicho esto, heidita, da la impresión de que consideras que tú o la gente de tu país es de algún modo superior a los demás, y que prácticamente desprecias a los españoles como a gente de mente cerrada, puritana y retrasada. Eso sería hace años (igual que en Alemania, por cierto, y en todas partes), pero ahora afortunadamente ya son otros tiempos.


Cintia&Martine:
*In Spain too. I'd never heard or seen that:"It is not considered "proper". All my spanish friends have a bath with her children and don't use to lock the door of the bathroom.*

I agree Cintia & Martine. There is difference between one house and other but we here in Spain have not fear of sex as a thing natural and teach to our children this.

Silvia


----------



## LaReinita

xxx
En respeto del tema, nunca he visto a mis padres desnudos. Creo que cuando un hijo es muy joven que está bien, pero después de 3 o 4 anos, no lo haría.

As for the subject, I have never seen my parents naked. I think that when the child is very young that it's okay, but after 3 or 4 years, I wouldn't do it.


----------



## Hakro

In Finland it's very common, or maybe I should say it's normal, that the whole family takes a bath together in sauna, at least until the puberty of the children. So I have learned that nakedness in sauna has nothing to do with sex. 

Later I have been in sauna with my friends' families (wife and kid girls included), my mother-in-law, my female colleagues and workmates, some lady sailors after a race, even some Lufhansa stewardesses in the sauna of the airport hotel in Frankfurt etc. and I (or anyone of us) have never seen anything strange or "sexy" in the situation.

I believe that a similar way of thinking about sauna is very common in other Nordic countries, and not too rare in Germany either, as Kajjo already testified (post #57).


----------



## Maruja14

Sagittarius said:


> La forma en que has dicho esto, heidita, da la impresión de que consideras que tú o la gente de tu país es de algún modo superior a los demás, y que prácticamente desprecias a los españoles como a gente de mente cerrada, puritana y retrasada. Eso sería hace años (igual que en Alemania, por cierto, y en todas partes), pero ahora afortunadamente ya son otros tiempos.


 
La verdad es que a mí no me ha dado esa impresión. No veo que haya hecho comparaciones entre un país y otro, es más por el resto de los aportes que ha hecho Heidita, me da la sensación (no sé si errónea o no) de que a ella no le parece muy natural que los niños a partir de cierta edad se bañen con sus padres.

Por otro lado creo que no conviene generalizar. No creo que nadie pueda decir con propiedad que en España o en el país X, *afortunadamente*, ya no existe tal o cual tabú. Creo que estos temas son muy personales y cada familia los vive de manera distinta, lo mismo en España que en Alemania o en China. Lo de los "países puritanos" creo que es una forma un tanto absurda de generalizar. Hay gente dentro de cada país más puritana que otra y, ahora sí *afortunadamente*, cada uno puede actuar como le venga en gana en temas que son estrictamente familiares.

También hay distintos ambientes. Hay quien piensa que en España todo el mundo se baña con sus hijos como la cosa más natural del mundo. Y hay quien piensa que eso no lo hace nadie. Pues no es ni una cosa ni la otra. Hay quien lo hace y quien no lo hace. Yo creo que la mayoría no lo hace cuando los niños llegan a una cierta edad.

A mí me encanta bañarme a la vez que mis hijos de nueve meses y no lo hago con el que tiene once años, por ejemplo. Además imagino que a él no le gustaría. No es bueno ser dogmático en estos temas. Bueno, la verdad es que no es bueno serlo en casi ninguno de los que pertenecen a la moral individual de las personas. Cada uno es libre de pensar en esos temas como le parece. Y todas las posturas merecen respeto y no es justo descalificar a nadie, creo que no tenemos derecho a hacerlo.


----------



## Sepia

Hakro said:


> In Finland it's very common, or maybe I should say it's normal, that the whole family takes a bath together in sauna, at least until the puberty of the children. So I have learned that nakedness in sauna has nothing to do with sex.
> 
> ...



And the number of sexually aberrated persons is not higher in Finland than anywhere else, right? 

(I would not have expected it to be - at least not because of going to the sauna toghether).


----------



## alexacohen

> Originally posted by *heidita*
> Here in Spain, generally speaking, it would be a rather surprising behaviour. It is not considered "proper". I would like to hear young people's opinion.


Yes, you are right, Maruja. It is not convenient to generalize.


> Originally posted by *heidita*
> I have even asked some 35-year-olds. They looked at me with surprise, as though I was thinking they were perverts.


I'm not 35, but 37. And I have bathed with my children from the day they were born. Family nakedness is not an issue in my family and has never been. I bathed with my sisters while we lived with my parents till we were full twenty. 
My children come and go, naked or not, as they like. Sometimes they have a bath together, or a shower, and sometimes they hijack my bathtime and climb into the bath with me. 
No big issue.
My children are 13 and 10. It is, as you said, strictly a family business. The "pervert" word does not belong here.


----------



## AngelEyes

alexacohen said:


> My children come and go, naked or not, as they like...sometimes they hijack my bathtime and climb into the bath with me. No big issue.
> My children are 13 and 10.


 
This is such a cultural issue. In mainstream America, this isn't happening!

Are either of your children boys? 

When my son was 13, or even 10, there's no way he was getting anywhere near my bath. I can tell you, if that had been happening and others found out about it, Child Protective Services would have been at my door.

Besides, it grosses me out to even think of sharing tub water with a child. Maybe that stems from the memory of having to bathe with my dirty brothers when I was growing up. 

However, I can see I'll never understand this cultural mindset. It's foreign to my brain.

But live and let live. 

*AngelEyes*


----------



## Venezuelan_sweetie

Maruja14 said:


> Por otro lado creo que no conviene generalizar. (...)
> También hay distintos ambientes. (...)
> No es bueno ser dogmático en estos temas. Bueno, la verdad es que no es bueno serlo en casi ninguno de los que pertenecen a la moral individual de las personas. Cada uno es libre de pensar en esos temas como le parece. Y todas las posturas merecen respeto y no es justo descalificar a nadie, creo que no tenemos derecho a hacerlo.


¡Maruja, pero qué alegría verte activa por aquí otra vez! (Aunque creo que más perdida del Culturals estaba yo, je je).

Todo tu mensaje está clarísimo y de una mentalidad abierta que es digna de elogiar. Normalmente, temas como éstos suelen ponerse espinosos, porque llega alguien y dice "en Júpiter se hace así...", y otro jupiteriano llega y dice "no, pero será en el polo norte de Júpiter, porque en el sur se hace asá...", y ya vemos que, si bien el aspecto cultural influye mucho, tampoco es que todos los jupiterianos están obligados a bañarse con los críos porque la mayoría lo hace, ni que todos los jupiterianos asocian desnudez en la ducha con la sexualidad.

Como ya he dicho, en mi *contexto* no se hacía cuando era yo niña (ver a los padres desnudos era como un pecado), pero sí me llegué a bañar bastante con mi bebé hasta no hace mucho (ya va a cumplir los cinco y no le agrada que mami ni las primas se bañen con él). Lamentablemente -y en términos muy generales-, en mi país suele asociarse la desnudez con el sexo. No me ha sido fácil desvincular mi opinion de la general al respecto, pero como todo, viajar y conocer gentes de otros rincones del mundo suele ayudar a expandir la mente en esos asuntos. 

Como es natural, y también a nivel muy general, lo mismo ocurre en muchas culturas. Normalmente hay un punto de vista muy popular y otro opuesto, y por eso el choque tan fuerte de opiniones, incluso entre ciudadanos del mismo país.

No hay que ser absolutistas al respecto. Hay cosas que uno acepta como inherentemente buenas y otras como inherentemente malas. Unas cuantas quedan en una zona gris. Cuáles caen en qué renglones suele ser condicionado por la cultura en la que uno crece, pero no siempre es así -además, eso suele cambiar con los años y las experiencias que uno vive.

Gracias a todos los que se tomaron la molestia de leer este post -y en español! 

Feliz día,

VS.


----------



## alexacohen

*AngelEyes*

I have three daughters, AngelEyes. 
I haven't got the least idea what would have happened if they had been boys. 
I have two sisters, uncountable -female- cousins who behave more or less like we do, three godaughters (they're Irish, by the way), and six nieces.

All the best,

*Venezuelan_sweetie* 

Como siempre, un placer leer tus posts. Y aciertas, como siempre. 
Mi punto de vista es que es mejor estar acostumbrados a la desnudez (en la familia, al menos); nada que ver con la sexualidad. Pero por ejemplo, si alguien en la familia está enfermo, y hay que ayudarle en todo, el estar acostumbrado a tratar la desnudez como algo natural simplificaría mucho las cosas: de otro modo, además del sufrimiento físico, también habría un sufrimiento moral: la vergüenza de mostrar la propia desnudez.

Feliz día para tí también, VS.
Alexa


----------



## AngelEyes

alexacohen said:


> I have always liked the mikvah.


 

Okay...now you have me very curious.  

What's a _mikvah_? Is there a rubber ducky around? (bath toy)

Also, if communal bathing is so widely an accepted practice, did any of your friends have boys that old and still bathed with them?

I'm starting to believe one of the reasons Americans don't do this is because we don't see getting clean as a leisurely activity. (I mean in general. There are occasions time slows down for pleasure. )

Also, it's not unusual to have more than one bathroom, and there's always plenty of warm-running water. Plus, we're all busy running here and there. You get clean and you get out.

Bathing is not seen as fun. It's seen as practical.

To slow down the pacing so you enjoy time spent with your children is not done in the bathroom, especially the older they get.

This is a distinctive cultural difference, I'm beginning to see.

*AngelEyes*


----------



## alexacohen

I'll explain (hoping not to get too much off-topic).

I'm Jewish, and the mikvah is a ritual bath. 

Ritual baths were filled with rainwater. Filling a big outside "pool" with rainwater, and keeping it clean, in Granny's time, was quite an impossible task. Not to mention warming the rainwater... 
So everybody climbed in. Not very orthodox in any sense, but it was fun to have a bath under the willow tree. And yes, there was a boy, a second cousin. I left home when I was 21, and he must have been then ten or eleven. I can't remember, exactly.

This is a description: 


> Rainwater at the *** mikveh is collected in a specially constructed receptacle beneath the marble-encased immersion pool, and is kept lightly chlorinated and at a comfortable temperature. There are connecting shower and changing rooms. And a specially trained attendant assists with the ritual.


 
I forgot your other question: yes, I do have friends with three sons. They go around very much as I do. The boys are now 23, 21, 19. But, I'm not sure about the "widely accepted" issue. There have been other posters here who do not agree.


----------



## cuchuflete

AngelEyes said:


> This is such a cultural issue. _*In mainstream America*_, this isn't happening!
> 
> Besides, it grosses me out to even think of sharing tub water with a child.
> * But live and let live. *



"But live and let live."    Spoken like a fine libertarian.  Brava!  

I suppose I ought to ask all my neighbors about their family bathing habits, and take the majority position as that of 'mainstream America'.    Not having asked asked, I can only assume that there is quite a lot of variety, as Venezuelan_sweetie suggested, in what passes for 'mainstream'.  Some behavior patterns may be based on family custom, while others, including communal bathing, may have family economics at root.
I know some families for whom unlimited hot water heating implies an economic hardship, so parents and children shower together.  That was common in my home when I was small, though not for economic reasons.  We liked to have a parent shampoo our hair, and help us get all the sand out from between our toes when we all returned from the beach.  I don't know how many sandy beaches there are in western Pennsylvania, or in Wyoming.  There may be some geographical differences at play. 

There are parts of the country known to be very puritan in thought and behavior.  I wouldn't be surprised to learn that family bathing in those areas combines the notions of nudity and sexuality, even in a bathtub.  Around here, such notions might seem a little silly, but nobody worries about family bathing habits elsewhere.  



AngelEyes said:


> I'm starting to believe one of the reasons Americans don't do this is because we don't see getting clean as a leisurely activity.


 Bathing is not always about getting clean.  It can be very relaxing after a hard day's work.  Another regional difference?

I stopped sharing the bathtub with my sons when they outgrew it.  The day came when
the tub just wasn't big enough.  Thus we were denied the opportunity or cause to consider the moral question of washing and playing together in the bath water.  If there ever was a moral question...


----------



## avok

AngelEyes said:


> This is such a cultural issue. In mainstream America, this isn't happening!
> 
> Are either of your children boys?
> 
> When my son was 13, or even 10, there's no way he was getting anywhere near my bath. I can tell you, if that had been happening and others found out about it, Child Protective Services would have been at my door.
> 
> Besides, it grosses me out to even think of sharing tub water with a child. Maybe that stems from the memory of having to bathe with my dirty brothers when I was growing up.
> 
> However, I can see I'll never understand this cultural mindset. It's foreign to my brain.
> 
> But live and let live.
> 
> *AngelEyes*


 
I totally agree with you, here in Turkey, sharing the same bathroom, no matter what, is never heard of.
By the way my body is my temple and I see no reason to show it to anyone else while having a shower. I would not feel comfortable to see someone else's hairy genitalia in front of me while I am washing myself.
It is only acceptable for mothers and little kids or sometimes fathers and their little boys but that's pretty much it.


----------



## Outsider

avok said:


> I totally agree with you, here in Turkey, sharing the same bathroom, no matter what, is never heard of.
> By the way my body is my temple and I see no reason to show it to anyone else while having a shower. I would not feel comfortable to see someone else's hairy genitalia in front of me while I am washing myself.
> It is only acceptable for mothers and little kids or sometimes fathers and their little boys but that's pretty much it.


I am surprised to read that. Are Turkish baths not popular among today's Turks?


----------



## María Madrid

No sé lo que es"normal en España. Tengo amigas cuyas madres dejaron de verlas desnudas con diez años y creen que es lo más moral y "normal" del mundo y otras que comparten con las suyas sauna y topless en la playas sin el más mínimo aspaviento, ni rollo rarito.

Lo que sí he visto es que en España se da con más frecuencia que en otros países europeos (evidentemente relacionado con el indiscutible atraso social que vivió España hasta hace cuatro días, como quien dice) una tendencia a que ciertos sectores se sientan moralmente superiores a otros por cosas que ni les van ni les vienen y que intrínsecamente no tienen más valor moral del que se les quiera dar. En los años cuarenta se consideraba inmorales a las mujeres que llevaban vestidos de tirantes. Ese espíritu inquisidor pervive. Lo de vive y deja vivir no lo pillan todos. 

En los países nórdicos, como ha dicho Hakro, es totalmente normal que familias enteras se den una sauna juntos sin que haya nada sexual en el aire. Es normal que si invitas a tus amigos a la casa del campo se aproveche para tomar una sauna (anfitriones, invitados y niños, todos juntos y sin problemas ni rollos pervertidos). O un baño en el lago. En los vestuarios de las piscinas y gimnasios públicos, que sí están separados por sexos, de la misma manera que hay duchas abiertas (aquí también) hay sauna y yo he tomado saunas con perfectas desconocidas desde los cinco a ochenta años. En ninguno de los casos he sentido necesidad de mirar los genitales de nadie ni he sorprendido a nadie observando los míos. ¿Son los escanadinavos unos inmorales? No, simplemente el ser humano es capaz de distinguir situaciones sexuales de no sexuales, y quizá eso implique un cierto entrenamiento que opino es mejor empezar desde la infancia. Hace ciento cincuenta años una falda por las rodillas habría sido una provocación sexual. ¿Lo es hoy? No. 

Personalmente creo que entender que la visión del cuerpo humano sólo puede implicar un enfoque sexual (y por tanto inmoral si hay menores de por medio) es tener una visión muy triste y limitada. Pero me parece tremendo que porque en Estados Unidos tengan una visión tan pazguata de la moralidad tengamos los demás que hacer lo mismo. Una cosa es proteger a los menores y otra que todos nos volvamos locos. Saludos,


----------



## Venezuelan_sweetie

Okay, okay. English time, then. This is a -terrible attempt of- translation to English of my previous posts. I apologize beforehand, as it is hard to express the same thoughts with the same 'intensity' in an entirely different language.

--------------------------

Generally speaking, topics such as this one tend to get thorny after a while, because it happens that someone states, for instance, "I know that in Jupiter, things are done this and that way..", but then someone else comes and says "you have to be kidding me, I'm from the South Pole of Jupiter and _I know_ that things are not like _that_!", which proves that, even though the cultural background is a quite important factor regarding our behavioral patterns, that does not imply that every person from Jupiter is obligued to bathe with their toddlers because most of them do, nor that every person from Jupiter combines the notions of nudity with sexuality either.

As I've said above, parents bathing with children was simply not done within my *context* when I was a child (seeing parents' nudity was considered a pervert sin, or something), but I did take many baths with my baby for years (just not anymore, as he's about to turn five and he doesn't want mom or his female cousins to bathe with him).

Unfortunately -and of course, generally speaking-, Venezuelans tend to think that nudity = sex. That is a notion too deeply ingrained and it's not easy to change it once you're a grown-up, but as with most things in life, traveling around and meeting people from different backgrounds and homelands is quite helpful with that (I mean, with opening one's mind to new concepts).

Naturally, and also generally speaking, mine is not the only culture presenting that challenge. There is often one very popular point of view regarding the issue and another one which is completely oposites, and that's why we differ so strongly, even with our fellow countrymen.

We cannot be absolute about concepts of that sort. We take some things as inherently good and some others as inherently bad. A few others end up in a 'twilight zone'. Which ones fall in which category? _That_ is often conditioned by the culture one grows up in, but it is not always the case. Besides, that can also change within time, depending on the life experiences one goes through.


I'm sorry for my poor English, and thanks to everyone who bothered to read this far.

Have a nice day, everyone.

VS.


----------



## Venezuelan_sweetie

alexacohen said:


> *Venezuelan_sweetie*
> 
> Como siempre, un placer leer tus posts. Y aciertas, como siempre.
> Mi punto de vista es que es mejor estar acostumbrados a la desnudez (en la familia, al menos); nada que ver con la sexualidad. Pero por ejemplo, si alguien en la familia está enfermo, y hay que ayudarle en todo, el estar acostumbrado a tratar la desnudez como algo natural simplificaría mucho las cosas: de otro modo, además del sufrimiento físico, también habría un sufrimiento moral: la vergüenza de mostrar la propia desnudez.
> 
> Feliz día para tí también, VS.
> Alexa


Thanks for your kind comments, Alexa. 

It's good to know that we agree. You're right: it is sort of relieving to consider nudity as just simply not wearing clothes (instead of assuming that nobody but your sexual partner should EVER get to see all of your skin). When we do, bathing with our children stops being an issue.

Also, as you so accurately said, it sort of simplifies things in many circumstances, not only when a relative falls sick and must be taken care of, but extending on that would be plain off-topic.

But there's always PM's, of course.


----------



## Hakro

Sepia said:


> And the number of sexually aberrated persons is not higher in Finland than anywhere else, right?


Sorry, I have no statistics about it, I can't answer your question exactly. Probably right.


----------



## cuchuflete

Hakro said:


> Sorry, I have no statistics about it, I can't answer your question exactly. Probably right.


 Statistics on sexual aberrations wouldn't serve any purpose, as the relationship between family bathing and such things could be coincidental, rather than causal.  This makes me wonder if those with sexual aberrations tend to come
more from families that are overly preoccupied with sex, morality, and the dangers of bathing together.    Again, statistics would not distinguish between coincidental and causal relationships.


----------



## avok

Outsider said:


> I am surprised to read that. Are Turkish baths not popular among today's Turks?


 
Nope, it is just something nostalgic nowadays, even so, people are supposed not to show their genitalias in hamams but I guess it is different for women they are more likely to show their breasts when they are in hamam. (that's what I heard, I was not there )
Hamams were popular during the Ottoman era when Europeans just threw their feces into the streets, here people visited hamams frequently to wash and to clean themselves. 
As Turkey got secular people got more individualist/puritan about their nudity, sexuality and personal hygiene. We do not have all boys/all girls kind of showers in schools or gyms etc. Maybe Ottomans were more comfortable about their nudity and sexuality


----------



## Outsider

avok said:


> We do not have all boys/all girls kind of showers in schools or gyms etc.


What kind of showers do you have in schools and gyms, then?


----------



## Hakro

cuchuflete said:


> Statistics on sexual aberrations wouldn't serve any purpose, as the relationship between family bathing and such things could be coincidental, rather than causal. This makes me wonder if those with sexual aberrations tend to come
> more from families that are overly preoccupied with sex, morality, and the dangers of bathing together.    Again, statistics would not distinguish between coincidental and causal relationships.


You're absolutely right, Cuchuflete. No one knows.


----------



## avok

Outsider said:


> What kind of showers do you have in schools and gyms, then?


 
I guess I said it wrong. I mean, each person has to wash in a seperate room.


----------



## Outsider

Interesting. Is it just the shower cubicles that are separate, or also the part of the room where people change clothes? From what you've been saying, I assume the latter...


----------



## avok

just the shower cubicles... to be honest most schools do not have showers so you have to go back to home to get washed. There are of course always exceptions. 
As I saw it in American movies all girls or all boys have shower in the same room/space all "naked". That's not the case here, that's what I am trying to say. Is it like in America in Portugal?


----------



## Outsider

We were getting off topic, so I started a new thread.


----------



## luis masci

I also suppose it’s rather a family bathing habits. Anyway speaking in general terms, I think we are here in this southern part of the planet, so much closer to American attitude front nudity than Nordic attitude.
I’ve never seen topless women in our beaches and swimming pools. All the opposite…I’ve seen as small girls as 4 or 5 years old using tops. Something that looks ridicules to me sense obviously they are still undeveloped.
By the way…I’ve bathed with my children until they were able to bath themselves. But they are a pair of boys. I suppose if they were girls instead, it'd be surely their mother's chore.


----------



## romarsan

alexacohen said:


> I'll explain (hoping not to get too much off-topic).
> 
> I'm Jewish, and the mikvah is a ritual bath.
> 
> Ritual baths were filled with rainwater. Filling a big outside "pool" with rainwater, and keeping it clean, in Granny's time, was quite an impossible task. Not to mention warming the rainwater...
> So everybody climbed in. Not very orthodox in any sense, but it was fun to have a bath under the willow tree. And yes, there was a boy, a second cousin. I left home when I was 21, and he must have been then ten or eleven. I can't remember, exactly.
> 
> This is a description:
> 
> 
> I forgot your other question: yes, I do have friends with three sons. They go around very much as I do. The boys are now 23, 21, 19. But, I'm not sure about the "widely accepted" issue. There have been other posters here who do not agree.


 
Alexa, que interesante, desconocía qué era el Mikvah y la verdad, me ha encantado conocerlo.
Yo por mi parte pienso que lo importante, como en cualquier otro aspecto de la vida, es el respeto sincero a la libre opción de todos y cada uno de nosotros. Un cuerpo desnudo es lo que la mente de quien lo mira quiere que sea, razón por la que cualquier punto de vista emitido desde el sincero respeto y aceptación de los otros es tan válido como los demás.
Un abrazo


----------

