# What's the future for French?



## agx

Hi,

Not to stir up and flamewars, but how do learners of French feel about franglais? Do you like it? Do you think it's fine? Do you think it could threaten the existence of French?

I used to learn French years ago and loved it. I was obsessed. However, a few years back, I began to notice that, not only could I not speak to French people in France in French because _they wanted to use their English_, but also _French was becoming English_.

I "waited" for French to improve but it only became more English. I had a website of like 100,000 or so, English words to come into French in the last few decades. It's quite amazing.

It had words like: _un best-of, ace, le making of, le hamburger, le happy hour, made in America, le weekend, le business, le holding, le jet, le gardenparty, les stars, le showbiz, le body, le film, le body (a swimsuit?), le babysitting, building, les news, les baskets, le football..._ and it would then show the French word that no French person uses. *Does anyone know that site, please?*

What's more, I came to realize that French wasn't even spoken by that many people in the world (100m?). I don't count the Africans that were forced to speak it as a first or second language. So basically, it's just French and Quebecois that speak it. And Quebec French is an even bigger joke:

_Tu as un plaster? Bypasse ce gang! Nous avons de la belle fun, J'entends le beat dans ma tete. Le nursing. Le sleeping (oh yes, I heard this once). Ils sont fuqué! Un tape! Je parque mon truck dans le driveway. Ton mel est down. C'est ton provaideur etc etc_

So, I thought: Hmm? I'm learning a language that basically has French prepositions with "le" stuck in front of English words. It began to annoy me. I turned my back on French finally. 

Can you believe French's fate? It seemed like such a useful and beautiful language but look what a few hundred years has done to it. It's given it a death sentence. It's a real shame. 

_
*So what aspects of French do you think will carry it through, if any? What will save it from becoming the next Latin? What keeps you learning French: i.e. a job, you still like the language, etc..*_

*PS: before you start to tell me about French words in English, I think we can safely say that this doesn't matter anymore as English is so powerful. English can AFFORD to take on foreign words, such is it's power and likeliness to be around forever.*

I'd like to return to French one day, but only if it gained back some pride.

Thanks for not being offended.


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## Benjy

i love the french language.. i think the picture that u paint is a little grimmer than it really is.. "french prepositions in front of english words" that made me smile, cos sometimes i did feel that way, esp at the barbers, but i still love all things french and i think "frenchness" still has cool things to offer the rest of the world


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## ishatar

????

What will save French from becoming the next Latin? Simple, a language only needs 100,000 speakers to be passed from generation to generation, so we are pretty safe. Plus, it's our language, we like it, and we are not going to abandon it. Plus, it's our country official language, so as long as the US don't become a dictatorship, invade us and destroy our current laws, there is no way we change our language. 
I think you really should reconsider your analysis. Did it ever occured to you that many languages have never been as much spoken as French and are in no way going to disapear?
As far as English words in French, well, did you really studied French????? If you really did, you would have probably realised that English words in French are unrecognisable to English-speakers' ears. You would also have realised that the proportion of English words in French are unsignicant. I mean, aside some trandy words, our language is absolutely Latino-Greek.

Was it helpful?


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## quehuong

agx,

I don't think French is endangered.  You should take a look at the list of "Endangered Languages and Dialects" and see that French is way way way way way way way....off the list.

I'm learning French, my children will also learn French, and my grandchildren will also learn French....And I'm not even French.


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## OlivierG

There has always be foreign words that become part of any language.
Sometimes, we find a French equivalent, sometimes, it is used as is (pronounced "à la Française" however).
What about "My chauffeur drove me to the restaurant, where I could eat a delicious hors-d'oeuvre"?
Why would you want us to find another word for "hamburger"? Is there another word for pizza?


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## Putrid Toaster

_So what aspects of French do you think will carry it through, if any? What will save it from becoming the next Latin? What keeps you learning French: i.e. a job, you still like the language, etc.._

French isn't going to die, nor is it going to be overcome by all the English words. It's hardly as bad as you make out; listen to RFI, or CKAC, or whatever French language station you like, and you'll see that the majority of words used are still well and truly French. Check out the main articles in Francophone papers, even.

My advise to you is not to "wait for it to improve", but to forget it and find something more worthwhile of your time. 

Moi, pourtant, je vais continuer d'apprendre le français malgré tous les anglicismes


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## kiolbassa

agx said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> 
> What's more, I came to realize that French wasn't even spoken by that many people in the world (100m?). I don't count the Africans that were forced to speak it as a first or second language. So basically, it's just French and Quebecois that speak it. And Quebec French is an even bigger joke:



172 million world-wide: French is the/an official language of France, Algeria, Belgium, Switzerland, Luxembourg, lots of African countries (who are just as happy to have a common language for their multi-ethnic populations as is India to have English) and Asian countries .... in all 29 of them. (check homepage of agence.francophonie.org)

If you don't count the African countries as French-speaking, why count India as English-speaking?

No one's forcing you to learn French ... who's forcing you to parade your ignorance?


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## Janna82

Allow me to add  more french speaking countries, which are Tunisia, Morocco and Lebanon is considered too! and using foreign words doesn't mean that the original language is disappearing, like in my country, French is not spoken and English is more used, but you may find some words which are originally french, like everyone says bouchard about pop-corn, these people don't even speak or understand French... aside to the words mentioned earlier, in english you always hear the word "Déja vue", which is French, and many many other words..... and the word hamburger is not just used in france, it's said everywehre in the world! and saying it doesn't mean that the language is becoming english


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## fetchezlavache

besides, the proportion of anglicisms in the french language is quite small... compared to the thousands of words that exist and that i wish i knew, in order to speak my language even better !!!!

and as for hamburger, isn't it a word of german origin, from the city of hamburg ? 

i'm glad i found this forum, it seems quite nice


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## agx

Thanks to everyone who replied. While I appreciate what you say, I fail to see any positive light over the horizon for French. It won't get better; the best it can hope for is to remain in this state with slight improvements, but as for its power and influence in the world, that is forever dead. 

Now for those who think French isn't so franglais as I'm making out, take a look at this:

http://membres.lycos.fr/tsalomon/franglais.html

includes words like:

abstract        résumé, abrégé 
ace (tennis)    as 
acting-out      passage à l'acte 
after-shave     après-rasage 
airbag          sac d'air, coussin de protection 
air conditionné climatisation 
alternative     choix? (lorsque plus de 2) 
applet          applette, mini-application 
aquaplanning    aquaglisse 
all right!      tout va bien! Bon! Bien! D'accord! 
anti-slash      (barre) oblique gauche 
atomizer        vaporisateur 
attaché-case    mallette 
audit           vérification 
auto-stop       pouce (Canada), pouce-pouce* 
award           distinction 
baby            demi whisky 
baby-boom       printemps démographique 
baby-boomer 
baby-foot       foot de table*, minifoute 
babyliss        friseur* 
baby-sitter     garde-enfant 
baby-test       test de développement 
backbone        épine dorsale infrastructure, plate-forme, 
dorsale 
background      historique, passé 
backspace       recule 
backup          copie de sécurité 
bacon           lardon? 
badge           marque-nom, insigne 
ballast 
ball-trap       balle ressort 
banner          banderole publicitaire, bandeau 
barbecue        grillade, grille-au-vent, braisier 
barmaid         serveuse?, comptoiresse*? 
barman          serveur 
bartender 
base-ball       balle à la base* 
basket-ball     ballon panier (Québec), balle au panier 
baskets         chaussure de sport 
batch en ~      en vrac 
bazooka 
bp/s            bit/s 
beatnick? 
because         parce que 
beefsteack/beafsteak/bifsteck/bifteck      pièce de boeuf, 
                                           bout/pavé de boeuf 
beeper 
benchmarking    référençage 
best-of         le meilleur de, florilège, compilation 
best-seller     succès de librairie, livre à succès, 
                succès de vente, meilleure vente 
big bang        explosion originelle 
black-out 
blacks          foncés (helvétisme) 
blazer          veste fantaisie 
blizzard        tempête de neige? 
blue jean       bleu de Gênes, pantalon en toile, pantoilon* 
blues           cafard 
blues (avoir)   déprimer 
bluff 1845      intimidation, esbroufe, culot? 
bluffer         faire de l'esbroufe 
boat-people     naufragés politiques, radeau-réfugiés 
bobsleigh       supertraineau*, bolide des neiges* 
body-building   musculation, sculpture corporelle/de corps 
boiler          chauffe-eau 
book            livre 
bookmaker       ramasse-paris (GILDER) 
boom 1892       flambée, explosion, fête, accroissement, 
                croissance, expansion 
boomer          haut-parleur de graves 
boomerang(effet)choc en retour, retour à l'envoyeur 
booster         survolter, propulser 
boot            botte 
borderline      état limite 
boss            patron, chef 
boum? 
bowling         boulin (ETIEMBLE), jeu de quille 
                , boulodrome (D. DAGUET) 
box             stalle, compartiment, enclos? 
boxeur          pugiliste 
box-office      échelle/cote de succès 
boy             garçon, domestique 
boycott         représailles/exclusion économique, blocus? 
                D'après le dictionnaire Larousse le terme provient 
                du nom du premier propriétaire anglais 
                mis à l'index" 
boysband 
boy-scout       garçon éclaireur 
brain-drain     draine-cerveaux (GILDER) 
brainstorming   remue-méninges 
brain-trusts 
brandy 
break           pause 
break (tennis)  vol/usurpation de service 
break (1950)    voiture familiale (EN station-wagon) 
breakfast       petit déjeuner 
brick           ? 
bridge          pont? 
brief 
briefing        réunion, réunionette, info-scéance 
broker          courtier 
bronzing        bain de soleil 
browser         feuilleteur, navigateur 
brunch          (breakfast+lunch) buffet matinal, buffet-repas 
brushing        brossage 
B2B             (Businness to Business) entreprise à entreprise, 
                entre-entreprises* 
B2C             (Business to Consumer?) 
                entreprise à particulier 
budget 
bug             erreur, défaut,
...

I can't even copy them all here, coz my PC would run out of RAM! It's amazing France isn't considered an anglophone nation. Most of these words I MYSELF don't even say often. Can you imagine - French people use a wider English vocabulary than I sometimes do??

And the reoccuring theme is that nothing can stop this trend - that I know of?

Anyone having read that amazing list of Franglais, what do you think?
French speakers, would you even advise an English speaker to learn French? What benefits does your language have for an anglophone?

Thanks for not considering me a troll. 

Seriously, I was HURT and DISAPPOINTED to say the least when I found out how badly the French language was doing. I didn't wanna admit that French had passed its heyday. I didn't wanna admit that French could no longer offer than anglophone anything. I didn't wanna admit how French culture, language, power, prestigiousness and prominence in the world was now no more influencial than those of Cuba.

Thanks.


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## quehuong

You are too pessimistic but not too realistic about the future of French.

Hope you'll feel better and start studying French again.


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## OlivierG

As we say in France, "don't feed the trolls !" 
However, even if perfectly pathetic, this post made me laugh a bit.
I am glad to learn *so* many terms are of *pure English origin* : abstract, audit, attaché-case, and so on.
Do you know, agx, there is something called "etymology" (you know, the stuff about word origin).
For example, "budget", which is a French word of English origin. Did you know it comes from the old French word "bougette" ?

And if French is *so* close to English, what the problem in learning it ? It will be a matter of day! 

Unless you are searching for a good excuse to avoid learning something? You just had to ask. Here is the answer you are expecting then:
"You are right, agx, French is completely perverted by an invasion of English word. It is for that reason all French speak perfectly English. You'd better learn any other language than this crap."
Do you feel better now ?


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## Sam

Just for fun , i wanted to quote George W. Bush : "The French don't have a word for 'Entrepreneur'"  , AGX, entrepreneur is a french word, if french borrows words from english , english do it also.
Ciao


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## WaFuSan

The funny thing is I could take at least 70% of the english words of your list, and their french counterparts, and show that they are not equivalent in use nor in meaning. They are, for most of them, not in the current use, but restricted to specific fields (ex: I have never heard someone said abstract except scientists who need to publish in ENGLISH-language international reviews). Plus some words are in the french language for quite a long time, how can you say them not to be french (e.g. I see 1845 next to bluff).
Funny thing, recently I have read an article saying that the english language was in danger, because of the numerous foreign speakers who master it at a level adequate for communication but which lacks nuance. And do to this, english-native speakers had to "reduce" the span of vocabulary used.
A bon entendeur, salut


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## CrazyFroggy

agx said:
			
		

> Thanks for not being offended.



Si agx savait qu'il existe dans le monde certains pays dont les langues sont plus parlées que l'anglais (je pense au mandarin -ce n'est pas une faute agx, je ne parle pas de la mandarine, qui est un fruit...- et à l'espagnol), il serait terrorisé ! Ne lui dites surtout pas !

A vrai dire il y a des offenses que je trouve plutôt flatteuses


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## Beverly

After seeing all the remarks about this entry,
I feel that I just want to draw your attention to the fact, that all languages evolve and so far English has come a long way from Shakespear.  Things that I was not allowed to say as a child, are permitted now!  Even Ain't is in the dictionary, so I am sure the French language will hold up! Don't worry!


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## Cath.S.

> that is forever dead


Que tu as de la chance de voir l'avenir, agx! Si seulement je pouvais moi aussi bénéficier de ce remarquable don! 

On ne sait pas ce que l'Histoire nous réserve, s'il le faut demain la langue anglaise ne sera plus parlée dans le monde entier et aura été détrônée par une autre (qu'il faudra que j'apprenne. Bon.) suite à des bouleversements politiques que nous ne saurions deviner.

Le chinois, par exemple pourrait devenir la langue dominante des siècles à venir. L'arabe, bien entendu, a aussi ses chances.
Il ne faut jurer de rien!
Empires rise and then
fall down.


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## kens

I'm sure many English speakers thought their language would die out in the eleventh century when French speakers ruled the island of Britain for about 300 years.  Certainly, the English that emerged was radically different from what it had been before, much as it had changed from contact with the Latin spoken by priests, and from the languages of the Vikings and other invaders.  But English is still around today.  

I'd say the mark of a language's staying power is its adaptability.  A language that refuses to change is soon obsolete.


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## Shark

There are some Angliscisms in French, but aren't there a lot of Gallicisms in English too? Here is a little list of them, and they are actually used quite often. About your list, I have to say that I never heard a French-speaker saying "all right" or "backspace", "bartender", "batch". Maybe in Québec they do, but here in France we don't.

About the future of the French language, according to the British Council, French is still the most studied language in Britain's High-schools and Universities. And 24% of American high-school students choose French as a foreign language. 

And contrary to other languages, we usually try to find an equivalent for new English words (this is the job of the Académie française). For example, in Italian, Dutch, or German, they use the English word "computer". In French, we use an other word, invented by the Académie française: "ordinateur". The same for mountain-bike: "VTT"...

And if you don't want to learn a language where you can find English words agx, then learn Tibetan. But talking about dying languages...

déjà-vu
cul-de-Sac
à la mode
entrepreneur
à la carte
ballet
chauffeur
coup d'état
crayon
dossier
en route
en masse
laissez-faire
rendez-vous
nuance
beige
par excellence
queue
raison d'être
renaissance
restaurant
routine
sauce
savoir faire
souvenir
unique
sauté
ricochet
régime
menu
lieutenant

Etc, Etc...


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## Shark

there's an article about "endangered languages" in The Economist this week. It's for "suscribers only" on www.economist.com. Did someone read it?


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## RTB

And to add perhaps the most commonly-used - *cliché*.  I doubt many people know it's the PP of *clicher* though.

 And agx, the best thing about learning another language, IMHO, is discovering that we use the same words.  Since I re-started about a month ago, I've been digesting about sixty words/verbs a day.  To come across an 'important' or 'village' is a godsend compared to a 'sage' or a 'chemin de fer'!

 To give up because you find it too difficult, too boring, too time-consuming would be excusable - just!  But to say that the French language is too anglicised smacks of someone who's just looking for an excuse to pack it in.

 And for anybody who's interested, a similar point to agx's was raised after the Congress of Berlin in 1878 when English replaced French as the international language of diplomacy.  Despite this setback, I think the language has survived pretty well, and I'm sure it will continue to prosper.

 Though Shark, beware of the British Council's figures.  While French is _taught_ (to use to term very loosely indeed) in British schools, I wouldn't go as far to say that it is _studied_.  The lack of enthusiasm in schools for the French language is, I think, very sad indeed and is often characterised by rife Francophobia.  Apparently, the same is not true in France, which may go some way to explaining why so many more French people speak good English than English people do good French.

 I don't know about anybody else, but I think a far greater threat to modern languages as we know them is text-speak.  Call me a pedant, but I refuse to answer messages replete with 'u's '2's 'b4's, etc, etc.  It's double Dutch!

 -RTB


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## Shark

RTB said:
			
		

> Though Shark, beware of the British Council's figures.  While French is _taught_ (to use to term very loosely indeed) in British schools, I wouldn't go as far to say that it is _studied_.  The lack of enthusiasm in schools for the French language is, I think, very sad indeed and is often characterised by rife Francophobia.



Lol, yes I noticed that! All my English flatmates studied French at school, some of them as long as 6 years, and they can't even say one basic sentence. They can hardly count to 10! But I won't say they are francophobe. Maybe studying French by reading Sartres or Camus is not very entertaining, that's why. In my last year in high-school, we studied a book entitled "The loneliness of the long distance runner". I found my English lessons so boring! But then I started to watch the TV-show "Friends", and it became easier to learn it!


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## Shark

Oh! I just found "idée fixe" in today's New York Times editorial!  By the way, is "editorial" coming from the French? We use this word too...


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## RTB

Shark said:
			
		

> Lol, yes I noticed that! All my English flatmates studied French at school, some of them as long as 6 years, and they can't even say one basic sentence. They can hardly count to 10! But I won't say they are francophobe. Maybe studying French by reading Sartres or Camus is not very entertaining, that's why. In my last year in high-school, we studied a book entitled "The loneliness of the long distance runner". I found my English lessons so boring! But then I started to watch the TV-show "Friends", and it became easier to learn it!


 Five years.  No vocabulary.  No understanding.  No enthusiasm.  Sounds like they went to the archetypal Engish school!
 'Friends' must have provided some lovely phrases which I'm sure have come in very handy!  Is there a French equivalent?  Or shall I just keep reading Voltaire?!

 -RTB


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## Shark

Maybe you could try "Un gars, une fille". It's a very funny TV-show about a young Parisian couple, with comic every-day life situations. You can find the DVDs on Amazon.fr. I don't think there are English subtitles... even better if you really want to progress in commonly spoken French!

But please don't give up on Voltaire!


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## RTB

I'll keep plugging away with the old boy!  Although it's so hard not to translate as I read!
 BTW, just how archaic are the old French writers?  I know that English has changed a great deal since then and I'm sure French must have also.  If one was to write or speak such English (even like Dickens) nowadays, one would be ridiculed.  Same with Voltaire/Rousseau/etc?

 I will certainly have a look into 'Un gars, une fille'.  There's nothing quite like immersion.  Thanks for the suggestion.

 -RTB


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## Shark

Yes, it's exactly the same with old French writers. Their style sounds a bit pedantic today, though they're still completely understandable. I think we can perfectly understand French writer writing from the 17th century. Before that, it is more difficult.


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## RTB

Merci beaucoup.  Maintenant, je pense que je lirai au sujet des Romains.  Dieu m'aide!  À bientôt.  (Crap?!)

 -RTB


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## banja

"Caraïbes -        Antilles"



   ' Never heard a frenchie say "Caraïbes" instead of "Les Antilles" (thanks not to forget the article).

   mdr
 ... sorry I meant lol.


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## fetchezlavache

well, maybe because les antilles et les caraïbes are not the same ?


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## Fezman

FRENCH IS SAFE. Come on, ONLY 100 million speakers!??! How would you react if your native language, from a starting point of  between 6 to 10 million fluent, everyday speakers in the 16th, 17th, and 18th centuries, was now only used informally by less than 7,000 people, who between them have an average age of 52?? That is when you know that you got problems!!! (I'm talkin about Irish (gailge) here by the way)


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## Login

OlivierG said:
			
		

> What about "My chauffeur drove me to the restaurant, where I could eat a delicious hors-d'oeuvre"?
> Why would you want us to find another word for "hamburger"? Is there another word for pizza?


I liked that one OlivierG !
lol lol (or should I say MDR MDR ?  )

And if I can add my 2pence ... 
@ Agx,
I think you can't avoid that a language evolves. And you shouldn't be sad about it ! That's the way anything "survives". 
First the natives will add, change, create words, expressions, spelling,... Some others will become "obsolete", will desappear...
Today we communicate, share, learn, meet, live, marry,... with people we could not even think they existed 1 or 2 centuries ago!
Everyone will bring his own "share" in the basket...
Our languages, cultures and population will of course reflect that situation.
And what if French disapears ? Don't get me wrong, I love my language, but would it be so bad if French does not exist anymore (in 6 or 700 years  ) ?

Btw, where do you think our "current" French (or your English) comes from ?


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## Beverly

I totally agree!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! To think that when the printing system came along the English Language went through more changes!! The printers came from France and the French operated them, as the English language at that time had more letters in the alphabet than the French so the printers would put two letters together to make a particular sound!! That is why the English language has so many inconstistancies in spelling but we still pronounce it correctly!
Think of bough tough through Oh my there are many! But let's just remember the printers were French! Ha! amusing huh?



			
				kens said:
			
		

> I'm sure many English speakers thought their language would die out in the eleventh century when French speakers ruled the island of Britain for about 300 years. Certainly, the English that emerged was radically different from what it had been before, much as it had changed from contact with the Latin spoken by priests, and from the languages of the Vikings and other invaders. But English is still around today.
> 
> I'd say the mark of a language's staying power is its adaptability. A language that refuses to change is soon obsolete.


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## valerie

Shark said:
			
		

> there's an article about "endangered languages" in The Economist this week. It's for "suscribers only" on www.economist.com. Did someone read it?



It is very interesting, especially the arguments to 'defend' endangered languages (know and record them, at least, and possibly save them). 
I wanted to attach an interesting table showing the 11 most used languages in the world, with Unesco data, which I suppose is public. But I am unable to do it. Perhaps you can do that Shark.

Basically most spoken languages fall into 3 categories:
1-: Chinese, mandarin, with almost 1 billion speakers
2-: between 400 and 500 millions speakers: English, Spanish and Hindi
3-: between 100 and 300 millions speakers: Russian, Arabic, Bengali, French, Portuguese, German and Japanese

English is the second one after chinese, for first language speakers as well as second language speakers.

French is 11th for first language speakers, and 8th for second language speakers. Not too bad for a dying language


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## Marinette

Helloooooo!!! Nice to hear an English-speaker talking about languages... You talk about hamburger, do you now were it comes from???

Hamburger is the German word for the people who live in Hamburg, so it is GERMAN!!!!

By the way, if you say that the people who talk French in Africa were made to learn it, shall we say that the people in the US were made to learn English? 

mdr  it's good to have fun while at work


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## Amygdal

Hi.

Now, take your english dictionnary, and try to find a genuine english word.  English has been itself so much influenced by french (actually Normand) that an englishman once said, if you remove of an english text all the genuine english terms, you still can understand it; while you cannot if you remove all french orignin terms.

True or not, I must admit french (I'm talking for Quebec's french) as been quite influenced by english, and not only since the last century.  But It's the same with all languages.

Anyway, what is french itself ?  It seems the apparent uniformity of this language is in France very recent; in the early 19th century, only 10 million people - over a population of 25 million - were speaking a french recognisable by a parisian.
Today, when we listen at the news, african french speaker (both black and white) are often subtitled because we could'nt understand everything they say without it.

Just remember were living in perpetual babel tower, pigé ?

Amygdal


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## jtauber

So we're trying to assess the health of the French language - to take its temperature, as it were. Then what a funny thermometer to use! If we use the number of words it contributes to other languages as the measure of the health of a language, then surely Latin is not dead at all. On the contrary, it is alive and kicking in French, Italian, Spanish and - wait a minute - even English! 

Here's an interesting thought - what if the ability of English to export words is not a sign of its strength, but the relative strength of other languages. That is, rather than taking a narrow economic view of language - i.e. as a kind of trade, in which whoever exports the most is winning - we should take an existential view of language as a place where life goes on. (A much more French way of looking at things, no?)

The health of a language would then be judged by how many and varied are the experiences that that language can accommodate, and the "importing" of words from other languages would be a reflection of French's openness and hospitality, rather than its domination by others.

So, you could say simply that French is actually healthier than English, because speaking French (with all its franglais included) allows you to connect the experiences of Afro-American rap and Bollywood with the literature of Stendhal and Proust. 

You just can't do that to the same degree by speaking English alone!


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## Marinette

Wow!! nice reply!


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## sophievm

RTB said:
			
		

> And to add perhaps the most commonly-used - *cliché*.  I doubt many people know it's the PP of *clicher* though.



No it's not. There is no "clicher" verb in French. "cliché" is just a noun.


----------



## Marinette

*Actually, it does exist, since 1987... but I guess it was made up after the meaning of cliché.*

*CLICHER, *v. 
_Domaine_ : informatique.
_Définition_ : recopier le contenu, à un instant déterminé, de tout ou partie d'une mémoire sur un autre support.
_Note_ : par extension, le nom correspondant peut être "*cliché*" ou "*cliché-mémoire*".
_Anglais_ : *to dump.*
_Source_ : arrêté du 30 mars 1987 (J.O. du 7 mai 1987).


----------



## azurienne

This has been a fascinating thread. As a native anglophone permanently (apparently after 14 years and still counting)  moving to a francophone country without knowing a single word of French (except those firmly entrenched in the English language)  , I can certainly verify that knowing English only won't get you very far!!!!! 

As I've learned the interesting ways English has been incorporated into French (_un brushing, le parking, le shampoing, un sweat, les baskets, _etc., including making plurals in the form of possessive, as in _pin's, jean's, _etc.), I've also realized some of the absurd ways French has entered English once I learned the original French. 

On the other hand, I've learned to expand my English vocabulary in learning common French words. _Ameliorate_ comes to mind, although there are quite a few others. In fact, many anglo words now creeping into the French language were actually French words in the first place, deformed by the English and reintroduced back into French.

Besides the franglais (which actually is a lot of fun, comes quite naturally as the brain picks the first word that fits, and is more a mixing of both languages rather than deliberately inserting a foreign word instead of a native one), don't forget the _faux ami_. I thought the French were really strange when I bought some socks for _sensible_ feet!! 

For Americans, did you know our passport is written in both French and English?

When I learn an expression that is similar in both languages, who knows where it originated? There was apparently an awful lot of passing back and forth between England and France centuries ago. I've learned to never assume something was originally English, but I've heard the French also have learned the reverse!

I can't imagine that anybody actually thinks the French language is on the decline. That is one of the most absurd things I've ever heard suggested.

Btw, in perusing my dictionaries in the early days, I discovered a bona fide American word in the French dictionary: saloon.


----------



## Septembre

Hi,

You should read Honni soit qui mal y pense, by Henriette Walter. It shows that the English language took a lot of French words with William, at the middle of the XI century. Now, you have forgotten about it .... It also shows that the relationship between the 2 languages has always been passionate .... Your mail prooves it once more.


----------



## king loei

Hmmmm....It's hard to tell. But I guess if the people who speak french like it, Like us, keep speaking it, and pass it on to our children, the end result could potentially end in a come back for the language of french. I mean, i'm just learning it. But I love it. A year in and I've already started looking at a word on a add and unconsiously translated the word to french.


----------



## Didier_S

I think problem for French language is not to assimilate English words. We have ever done that, with words from all languages (Italian for music, Spanish, Arab, obviously Latin...). 

I think the point is : we French people like and estim French language less and less. Our writters are vanitous, boring and colloquial. Our leaders speak English and think "globish". I don't mention journalists, singers and common users of French. French is in absolute decline. Our language is more and more poor and approximative. Verbal tenses are threatened of extinction ! When I was a children, simple past was possible and much more common than accurently. I don't mention subjonctive imperfect. It was possible for written sentences, and even for some oral expressions ("Plût au ciel"...). Accurently, all subjonctive tenses are less and less employed. Children understood Molière. It was only 25 years ago...

I am afraid, since Proust's time, French has lost most of its cultural interest. Whom read currently ? D'Ormesson ? Houelbecque ? We have no more Zola, Balzac, Le Sage, Flaubert, even nor Alexandre Dumas or Marcel Aymé ! It is a giant wasting...


----------



## massie1

Dear AGX, you write: _"I'd like to return to French one day, but only if it gained back some pride"_. A language cannot feel pride, let alone gain it. People who keep it alive by speaking it and helping it evolve - yes, languages do change- are the only ones who can feel the pride that comes from a language well understood and spoken. Pride comes from within - don't wait for French to regain some pride to come back to it - if you don't feel any pride about speaking the language, understanding the underlying culture and history, then I'm afraid outside influences won't do much to instill it in you. It takes a strong will and a good dose of personal effort to learn, then protect and defend one's own language, mais la satisfaction du devoir accompli en vaut la peine - perseverance is reward in itself.

btw, as a québécois I find your characterisation of Québec French as a joke harsh and gratuitous. If I compare the quality of the language spoken in the 50's and 60's (sorry, I'm old enough to remember those decades...) with the state of today's spoken word, we've come a long way - for the better. Are there some pockets of population where intellectual laziness leads to using English words because it's easier to do so than to take a few minutes to find the right French words? no doubt. But these are isolated cases. 

You may want to do a bit more research on this topic - French is spoken by more than people living in France and in Québec. In Canada, for example, the Acadians in New Brunswick with their rich and proud heritage may take offense at being excluded from the francophonie; the Manitobans living around Saint-Boniface might also; and what about all the members of l'Association des francophones hors-Québec? All of us who live on this small island surrounded by an ocean of English owe it to ourselvs and the future generation to keep up the fight for our language, a language that is alive and well, thank you very much.


----------



## Didier_S

Without France and Québec, French language is almost nothing. In French-speaking Africa, French is employed by rich or well-educated people and it should be replaced by English. It would be better for these people, I think. I agree they need a international language and they have too many dialects, but why do they speak French and not English ? I don't understand them. Outside Africa, French-speaking countries are become a pure diplomatic fiction, even in Liban. 

We should learn English all over the world like the worldwide language. It wouldn't prevent us to learn other languages but it would help to international peace and communication. I have learnt German first, and I think there was a pure non-sense. Result : even currently, I may say "It ist" or "Zo" instead of "It is" and "So" ! And I have no opportunity to employ German in my job... "Ab und zu", sometimes, I read German papers...


----------



## Charvet

azurienne said:
			
		

> I can't imagine that anybody actually thinks the French language is on the decline. That is one of the most absurd things I've ever heard suggested.


 

Hello,
I personnally think French language is on the decline, out of France boundaries.
Why? because it is virtually of no use in everyday business all over the world and because mass culture comes from the US.
See, nobody's dared post any message in French in this thread... Maybe it would sound somehow "asocial", because English is the 'natural language' for communication worldwide nowadays.

Now, concerning France itself, there's no visible threat at all.
Because of its history, French people is a very proud people, and its "force de caractère" is strong enough not to be overwhelmed by any cultural invasion.
Probably, the same could be said about the Quebecois.

Voilà.
Et pour répondre à Didier S., je dirais que son point de vue est bêtement passéiste. Oui, personnellement je préfère Houellebecq à tous les classiques que tu cites, parce que ses livres parlent du monde contemporain, et en particulier du genre de sujets qui nous préoccupent dans ce thread.

++
Henri


----------



## Didier_S

"Passéiste" or not "passéiste", I am sure than Houelbecque will be soon forgiven...

We all agree about the future of the French language : a peculiar idiom for two or three countries, with a poor and limited vocabulary.


----------



## Hexagone

let's have alook to this list...



abstract résumé, abrégé = never heard the english term used
ace (tennis) as = only used in tennis. As is used for the rest (cards...)
acting-out passage à l'acte = never heard "acting out" used. Business or quebecois talk ?
after-shave après-rasage = both are used
airbag sac d'air, coussin de protection 
air conditionné climatisation = both are used
alternative choix? (lorsque plus de 2) = never heard that too. We say choix, choix multiple
applet applette, mini-application = aplette is use in a more technic programming context. Application is used in a programs, softwares context. Most of the eople don't even know what an applet is. Only PC nerds  
aquaplanning aquaglisse 
all right! tout va bien! Bon! Bien! D'accord! = both are used, french prevailing
anti-slash (barre) oblique gauche 
atomizer vaporisateur = vaporisateur. Barely the english term. By the way, Atomiser veut dire to "nuke" in french.
attaché-case mallette = both are used
audit vérification = audit is used in a business context, when it is done on a enterprise. If not, we talk about vérification
auto-stop pouce (Canada), pouce-pouce* 
award distinction = we don't use the word award. We talk about Oscars, Césars, récompenses, trophés...
baby demi whisky 
baby-boom printemps démographique 
baby-boomer 
baby-foot foot de table*, minifoute 
babyliss friseur* = it's a brand !
baby-sitter garde-enfant 
baby-test test de développement = ?
backbone épine dorsale infrastructure, plate-forme, 
dorsale = never heard the use of backbone anywhere. Probably some more business talk
background historique, passé = we use both, historique is still predominant.
backspace recule = geek talk  
backup copie de sécurité = english term mostly used by informatic nerds. Common people use copie, copie de sécurité, sauvegarde, sauvegarde de sécurité...
bacon lardon? bacon is used when it's indeed bacon. If not, we use the word lard (lardons = small pieces of lard).
badge marque-nom, insigne = badge is not used in the same way than insigne : Mulder et Scully ont des badges, le shérif a un insigne...et mon cousins collectionne des pins !
ballast 
ball-trap balle ressort 
banner banderole publicitaire, bandeau = we do not use the word banner. or maybe it is another business/nerds talk
barbecue grillade, grille-au-vent, braisier = barbecue and grillades are both used.
barmaid serveuse?, comptoiresse*? = barman is used for the one behind the bar. If not it's un serveur ou une serveuse.
barman serveur 
bartender = not used
base-ball balle à la base* = well base ball is base ball like rugby is rugby
basket-ball ballon panier (Québec), balle au panier 
baskets chaussure de sport = we also use the word tennis
batch en ~ en vrac = must be quebecois, we use "en vrac"
bazooka 
bp/s bit/s 
beatnick? = oldfashioned both in english and french I guess  
because parce que = parce que. Because is mostly used in a humourous context
beefsteack/beafsteak/bifsteck/bifteck pièce de boeuf, 
bout/pavé de boeuf = a pavé is not a steak...
beeper 
benchmarking référençage = business or quebecois talk ? the only word I know is référencement
best-of le meilleur de, florilège, compilation 
best-seller succès de librairie, livre à succès, 
succès de vente, meilleure vente 
big bang explosion originelle 
black-out 
blacks foncés (helvétisme) 
blazer veste fantaisie 
blizzard tempête de neige? = both are used, with french prevailing
blue jean bleu de Gênes, pantalon en toile, pantoilon* = we say jeans
blues cafard blues (avoir) déprimer = If you find someone who actually say "J'ai le blue" instead of saying "j'ai le cafard" or "je déprime"...except maybe in music 
bluff 1845 intimidation, esbroufe, culot? 
bluffer faire de l'esbroufe 
boat-people naufragés politiques, radeau-réfugiés 
bobsleigh supertraineau*, bolide des neiges* = bobsleigh is only used for the sport. If not, it's traineau (with dogs), luge...
body-building musculation, sculpture corporelle/de corps = body building is used for the very extreme thing. If not, people mostly say that they are doing musculation.
boiler chauffe-eau = chauffe eau for the big thing that gives you hot water in the house. Boulloire for boilling your water for the tea.
book livre = livre
bookmaker ramasse-paris (GILDER) 
boom 1892 flambée, explosion, fête, accroissement, 
croissance, expansion 
boomer haut-parleur de graves 
boomerang(effet)choc en retour, retour à l'envoyeur = retour de flammes
booster survolter, propulser = booster is used more in a way of accelerate and/or increasing something. Comes from business talk : il a boosté les ventes. survolter and propulser are still used don't worry
boot botte = botte prevails...Boot is used for a military context mostly.
borderline état limite = the english term is mostly used in a humoristic way, to add to the ridicule of a situation : "je suis over booked borderline limite névrose"...It has been brought on by humorists to mock all this use of english/business talk.
boss patron, chef = they are all used
boum? = used to design a party or to translate "boom !"
bowling boulin (ETIEMBLE), jeu de quille = Bowling is used to design the game you play in a specific place, with special shoes and all. Jeu de quilles is the wood game that you play with your firend in your garden.
, boulodrome (D. DAGUET) 
box stalle, compartiment, enclos? = box is used to design some individual closed places of parking and also where are horses are (stalles). Un enclos is made of barriers and usualy in exterior.
boxeur pugiliste = lol
box-office échelle/cote de succès 
boy garçon, domestique = not the same context
boycott représailles/exclusion économique, blocus? 
D'après le dictionnaire Larousse le terme provient 
du nom du premier propriétaire anglais 
mis à l'index" 
boysband 
boy-scout garçon éclaireur = boy-scout is mostly used in a pejorative way. To design someone who wants to do every thing well. In the Scouts, they use the term éclaireur
brain-drain draine-cerveaux (GILDER) = never heard of that. Quebecois I guess
brainstorming remue-méninges = business talk
brain-trusts = business or quebecois talk ?
brandy = yes it's alcohol so what ?
break pause = both are used
break (tennis) vol/usurpation de service 
break (1950) voiture familiale (EN station-wagon) 
breakfast petit déjeuner = petit déjeuner
brick ? = the magrebh originated receipe I guess : ce soir je fais des bricks aux saumons
bridge pont? = pont, passerelle
brief = business talk
briefing réunion, réunionette, info-scéance = business talk
broker courtier = business talk, courtier is widely used anyway.
bronzing bain de soleil = on ne fait pas du bronzing, on bronze (comme le métal, le bronze). Ou alors on prend un bain de soleil. 
browser feuilleteur, navigateur = informatic talk, common people use naviguer
brunch (breakfast+lunch) buffet matinal, buffet-repas 
brushing brossage = brushing is only used in airdo context (Le coiffeur m'a fait un brushing). If not brossage is used
B2B (Businness to Business) entreprise à entreprise, 
entre-entreprises* = business talk, I can't stand it.
B2C (Business to Consumer?) 
entreprise à particulier = same as above...
budget = french word at the begening...
bug erreur, défaut = used mostly in informatic way, some use it too in a humourous way to say that somethign wrong happened in the process. Erreur still prevails


I'm sure there would be much to say about this but i'm...tired right now !


----------



## jbottle

OH gOD YOU ARE A DRAMATIST!!!!!!!!!!
So what if the french use a few foriegn words - what about fiancee, enjambment and rendez-vous? The french cant help adding modern words to their dictionary, do you want them to speak in sign language every time they want to say burger? The french language is one of the most beautiful languages i have heard, and is spoken in many countries... Its never going to die out


----------



## Nick

agx said:
			
		

> Anyone having read that amazing list of Franglais, what do you think?


I'm sure that Chinese, Japanese, Spanish, Italian, German, Russian, Greek, etc. all have English words in them as well. Big deal. A new technology is invented in America, why shouldn't other places use our word? If they want to make their own word, fine, but if they don't, who care if they use the real Enlgish name of the technology?

The sign-language idea sounds pretty good though -- can you imagine having to say all these common words from Asia in sign language.  I hope nobody asks you if you prefer Toyotas or Subarus while you are driving in your Honda.



			
				agx said:
			
		

> What benefits does your language have for an anglophone?


What benefits does any language have for English-speaking people? Why learn French? Well, why learn Russian? Why learn Italian? Why learn German? Why learn Greek? It is valuable if you will communicate with people speaking that language. Learning French is no different than learning any other language.


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## JLanguage

A far greater percentage of English words come from French, than French words from English. French is by no means dying out. While it is true that's French was once the language of high culture, so too was German. Today that language is English. 

Even if French has 1000 commonly used anglicisms, that's still very few compared to the complete French vocabulary. I can't remember where I read it, but somewhere I saw that 88% of Modern French vocabulary have a French origin.

It is still considered very chic to know French in the US, and I personally want to French simply because it seems like such a beautiful Romance language when written.


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## mags16

i dont know that much french, but ive been learning it for a few years and i havent experienced that much franglais. maybe its because most of the words we learn are from the books and completely outdated for slang anyway. i still think french is a beautiful language though. im sure when french people say the franglais words they sound prettier than anyone who says english saying it though because accent. haha


----------



## sophievm

I don't think English is the language of "high culture". It's the language in international communication. But, look at African countries for example, cultivated people love to speak in French (and also in the US there are people who love to put French words in their sentences I think ?)


----------



## lainyn

Yes, but I think the highbrow effect is due to the history of language, the fact that it comes from Latin - which held all the power of the great Roman Empire behind it...

People like to stick French phrases into their speech in order to sound chic, upperclass, or sexy.

Although the most frequently well-known phrase "Je t'aime" is rather plain, so who knows what we English speakers are thinking?


----------



## Marinette

Didier_S said:
			
		

> We all agree about the future of the French language : a peculiar idiom for two or three countries, with a poor and limited vocabulary.


 
Oh god, what do you call limited? just because we can't build words "ohne Ende" like the German? or because we can't make up verbs out of nouns like in english?

"Don't sir me" "ne m'appelez pas monsieur" is it so bad???

May I just remind you that when english people need to name something a bit outstanding, they also use the foreign words?
ketchup : chinese
aubergine: french
etiquette: french
hambuger: german

and so on... it's easier to have bigger dictionnaries when you add words from other languages  

PTDR, maybe the savoir-vivre is a bit too outstanding for some english-speaking people... so that they can't imagine that there's a whole world that doesn't revolves around them and that we could live (talking about languages) without them??? 

Ah oui, et aussi... on répond en anglais, parce qu'on répond à un anglais qui refuse d'apprendre le français... c'est s'adapter à la situation, ça, non? Mais bon, personnellement, je préfère avoir étiquette, savoir-vivre, et tous les mots un peu élégants, plutot que loser, popcorn et chewing gum


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## Benjy

> Oh god, what do you call limited? just because we can't build words "ohne Ende" like the German? or because we can't make up verbs out of nouns like in english?
> 
> "Don't sir me" "ne m'appelez pas monsieur" is it so bad???
> 
> May I just remind you that when english people need to name something a bit outstanding, they also use the foreign words?
> ketchup : chinese
> aubergine: french
> etiquette: french
> hambuger: german
> 
> and so on... it's easier to have bigger dictionnaries when you add words from other languages
> 
> PTDR, maybe the savoir-vivre is a bit too outstanding for some english-speaking people... so that they can't imagine that there's a whole world that doesn't revolves around them and that we could live (talking about languages) without them???
> 
> Ah oui, et aussi... on répond en anglais, parce qu'on répond à un anglais qui refuse d'apprendre le français... c'est s'adapter à la situation, ça, non? Mais bon, personnellement, je préfère avoir étiquette, savoir-vivre, et tous les mots un peu élégants, plutot que loser, popcorn et chewing gum


et en postant tout ça tu cherches à faire quoi? montrer le savoir-vivre dont tu te vantes?

je vois vraiment pas l'utilité de ce débat, si on peut appeler ça un débat...



			
				Maldoror said:
			
		

> Was the guy worth a +8 page thread? The answer is NO.



my point exactly :/


----------



## fetchezlavache

Maldoror said:
			
		

> C'mon the threadstarter is just another of them tedious frenchbashers. He belongs to the www.fuckfrance.com crew, where members are swaping insults all day long with climactic frenzy.
> 
> Was the guy worth a +8 page thread? The answer is NO.
> 
> btw: 50p100 of all English wordS are of french origin; does it mean English is French? The answer is same as above.
> 
> Mal.




great scott, as bertram wooster would say,   i'm curious as to how you managed to dig out that piece of information...

@ marinette : your post was quite disparaging to english-speaking people.  savoir-vivre per se is nothing, only an empty shell, if there's not a human being 'inside'.  i'd rather meet a person with a good heart and soul, and some backbone, and less outside superficial varnish. 

ps it's 'doesn't revolve' around them, not 'doesn't revolves around them'.


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## Fezman

Just wondering if this thread, which goes against a lot of what WordReference stands for, i.e. education and learning in a friendly atmosphere, will still qualify for a 'most clicked thread' gong??


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## heresmyworld

The French language does not seem to be endangered.  But I think the English language definetly is but for the USA.  So many people immigrate every year from Mexico or the small countries like Puerto Rico.  I will not be suprised if Spanish becomes the second official language of the USA.  It just seems though that it might hurt the English language.  The slang you hear from rap and hip-hop will also hurt English a little, maybe not only the USA.  Did you know that the word bling-bling is now in the dictionary?  It is that word that the rap guys created that means all the jewelry that they wear.


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## Starcreator

If French dies, it is because French has killed itself. Languages exist to be practical mediums of communication between people. French may be dying - it may not be. What I know is that there are still 115 million speakers and many people learning French and it still exists as a very strong language (though I do see especially its being phased out in Quebec).

Maybe French will die. But the fact that we've all learned it means it won't die in our lifetimes, at least, for as long as a language has speakers it still has strength in the linguistic world.

Is English powerful? Is it potent? Yes, certainly - but that does not take from the potency of French because English cannot imitate French - French is French. 

So I'm trying to comment on 9 pages of discussion and all I can say is that a language exists to be a practical communication medium, and if it is phased out the language is to blame for its own impracticality. I don't however, see French dying and I definitely think that on a forum full of people trying to learn French from English one can practically claim that French doesn't have "pride" just because it has picked up some new vocabulary.


----------



## LauraSBH

Quote:   I will not be suprised if Spanish becomes the second official language of the USA.

Well, first there would have to be a FIRST official language of the US, and there isn't and never has been.  There is only the _lingua franca_ (English in most places), and that is subject to evolution as it should be. Dang, wasn't that another borrowed foreign phrase that slipped in there?  Oh well, c'est la vie...


----------



## heresmyworld

From wikipedia: The United States does not have an official language; nevertheless, American English ( referred to in the US as simply English ) is the language used for legislation, regulations, executive orders, treaties, federal court rulings, and all other official pronouncements. Many individual states have adopted English as their official language, and several states and territories are officially bilingual...


 
I never knew that. However English is used in the government and I believe most people assume English is what the USA speaks. Whether they declare official languages or not, I think in the future spanish is going to be a major language here and some places will probably require you to learn spanish. I will not be suprised if some states make the schools teach spanish to everbody. Nobody realizes the importance of french in the USA. Yet Québec is a neighbor to the USA...


----------



## Starcreator

French holds very little prevalence in the states. Here, politicians spend billions trying to uphold Quebecois heritage and culture but the US has no real use for French - most students learn spanish, which there is much more practical.


----------



## Jad

Okay, perhaps at the moment many of our words are creeping into the French language, but English has already been very influenced by French, as many of you know :

Old French - "conter fleurette" => English - "to flirt" => Modern French - "flirter"

So what will be next in line ? Maybe in a good few years it'll become "flirtering" in English....

I like having French in English, anyway...

There was a _chef_ at the _café_ who told me he got caught on _surveillance_ having a _ménage à trois_ in his _salon_ under a _chandelier_ with his _concierge_ after eating a _casserole.  _


----------



## Gil

Starcreator said:
			
		

> French holds very little prevalence in the states. Here, politicians spend billions trying to uphold Quebecois heritage and culture but the US has no real use for French - most students learn spanish, which there is much more practical.



"Here, politicians spend billions trying to uphold Quebecois heritage and culture"

Who? What? Where? When? Why? What billions?


----------



## LauraSBH

Well Gil, as an American I don't hear all the Canadian news.  But didn't they make quite a fuss over some Passover supplies (matzohs and such) that weren't labelled in French a couple years ago?  If I remember correctly they made all the grocers pull all the stock off the shelves the week before Passover!  It was as if the stuff were poisonous!  I'm not sure what the government's expenditures were in that case, but it sure caused a lot of grief and cost somebody a bundle.  In any case, they obviously have laws on the books plus inspectors and prosecutors on payroll to back them up.  Actually it does affect us here in the US.  Since Quebec requires all consumer goods to be labeled in French, many products are labeled in French and English, and often Spanish as well.  We see lots of French on product packages!  I don't think it's going away any time soon.


----------



## Gil

Thanks for your reply LauraSBH (although I expected one from Canada)
You actually answered quite a lot.
Who?  Québec Government
What?  Passover supplies labelling
Where? Province of Québec.
When? a couple of years ago.
Why?   Disrespect for the laws of the Province of Québec about which the importers were informed.
What billions?  I am not an accountant, but...

How come we have not heard anything since about Passover Supplies?  
I suspect that a satisfactory arrangement was reached between the government and the importers and producers...
Some moderator may intervene and say our comments are not relevant to the forum.  
I happen to believe that state intervention or non-intervention may have an influence on the future of  languages...and French.


----------



## Zane

Hi All,

Am glad i joined this forum. I joined parce que, je dois ameliorer mon francais. hopefully, i will be able to do just that. En mon opinion, je pense que French won't die but will go throw an evolution phase, like any other language. Even English is going through that. If one came to my part of the world, you will know exactly what I mean. In my country, we've got thirty-something native languages on top of the official English and Kiswahili languages. On peut melanger tout les langues as long as the other party understands. Am even learning Chinese, 2/3s of ourstaff is chinese! so we speak: Chin-glish, Kiswa-nglish, Luganda-nglish et Fran-glish aussie!

I have this picture where the world will be speaking a cocktail of a language! But in the meantime, I will improve my French and encourage my friends to learn it too!

Regards,

Zane


----------



## Starcreator

Gil said:
			
		

> Thanks for your reply LauraSBH (although I expected one from Canada)
> You actually answered quite a lot.
> Who? Québec Government
> What? Passover supplies labelling
> Where? Province of Québec.
> When? a couple of years ago.
> Why? Disrespect for the laws of the Province of Québec about which the importers were informed.
> What billions? I am not an accountant, but...
> 
> How come we have not heard anything since about Passover Supplies?
> I suspect that a satisfactory arrangement was reached between the government and the importers and producers...
> Some moderator may intervene and say our comments are not relevant to the forum.
> I happen to believe that state intervention or non-intervention may have an influence on the future of languages...and French.


 
I'm a Federal Liberal and you have no idea the amount the government must spend just to provide services in English and French. Do you know how costly it is to ensure that we have someone speaking French at, for instance, the Castlegar, BC Public Service Commission when nobody even needs it? Very. Not to mention the government programs in place to subsidise immersion programs and people who wish to be bilingual. Quebec also does, if I'm not mistaken, receive the largest transfer payment in Canada. And they repay us by doubling up administrative costs by running yet another pension plan and another revenue collection agency.

And yet the seperatist Bloc chooses to team up with the idiotic conservatives just so they can watch another English government go up there, except this time one which cares much more about the west and much less about the Quebecois. Brilliant job, Duceppe.

The entirety of Canada caters to the Quebecois financially. Meech lake, though it was hated by English Canada, shows us exactly how much emphasis was and continues to be placed on the French.


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## Cath.S.

> Some moderator may intervene and say our comments are not relevant to the forum.


Actually I am considering moving this thread to the Cultural Issues Forum. I'll leave a redirect, though.


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## jimreilly

I find French extremely useful in communicating with some of those Africans who might not seem to count for too much for your purposes. And did you know that some English-speaking Africans are also learning French for business purposes, since it's so much to their advantage?

Now, a story, from another culture and country, Norway, where there are efforts to support the continued health of the Sami language,  spoken by a minority of people there.

A Norwegian-speaking Norwegian and a Sami are talking about these efforts, the Norwegian-speaker thinking that they are foolish efforts. 

Nor: Don't you think Norwegian will replace Sami anyway?

Sami: Yes, and it will happen at exactly the same time English replaces Norwegian!

P.S. I don't think Norwegian is about to disappear either!


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## Nykoo

agx said:
			
		

> Thanks to everyone who replied. While I appreciate what you say, I fail to see any positive light over the horizon for French. It won't get better; the best it can hope for is to remain in this state with slight improvements, but as for its power and influence in the world, that is forever dead.
> 
> Now for those who think French isn't so franglais as I'm making out, take a look at this:
> 
> http://membres.lycos.fr/tsalomon/franglais.html
> 
> includes words like:
> 
> abstract        résumé, abrégé
> ace (tennis)    as
> acting-out      passage à l'acte
> after-shave     après-rasage
> airbag          sac d'air, coussin de protection
> air conditionné climatisation
> alternative     choix? (lorsque plus de 2)
> applet          applette, mini-application
> aquaplanning    aquaglisse
> all right!      tout va bien! Bon! Bien! D'accord!
> anti-slash      (barre) oblique gauche
> atomizer        vaporisateur
> attaché-case    mallette
> audit           vérification
> auto-stop       pouce (Canada), pouce-pouce*
> award           distinction
> baby            demi whisky
> baby-boom       printemps démographique
> baby-boomer
> baby-foot       foot de table*, minifoute
> babyliss        friseur*
> baby-sitter     garde-enfant
> baby-test       test de développement
> backbone        épine dorsale infrastructure, plate-forme,
> dorsale
> background      historique, passé
> backspace       recule
> backup          copie de sécurité
> bacon           lardon?
> badge           marque-nom, insigne
> ballast
> ball-trap       balle ressort
> banner          banderole publicitaire, bandeau
> barbecue        grillade, grille-au-vent, braisier
> barmaid         serveuse?, comptoiresse*?
> barman          serveur
> bartender
> base-ball       balle à la base*
> basket-ball     ballon panier (Québec), balle au panier
> baskets         chaussure de sport
> batch en ~      en vrac
> bazooka
> bp/s            bit/s
> beatnick?
> because         parce que
> beefsteack/beafsteak/bifsteck/bifteck      pièce de boeuf,
> bout/pavé de boeuf
> beeper
> benchmarking    référençage
> best-of         le meilleur de, florilège, compilation
> best-seller     succès de librairie, livre à succès,
> succès de vente, meilleure vente
> big bang        explosion originelle
> black-out
> blacks          foncés (helvétisme)
> blazer          veste fantaisie
> blizzard        tempête de neige?
> blue jean       bleu de Gênes, pantalon en toile, pantoilon*
> blues           cafard
> blues (avoir)   déprimer
> bluff 1845      intimidation, esbroufe, culot?
> bluffer         faire de l'esbroufe
> boat-people     naufragés politiques, radeau-réfugiés
> bobsleigh       supertraineau*, bolide des neiges*
> body-building   musculation, sculpture corporelle/de corps
> boiler          chauffe-eau
> book            livre
> bookmaker       ramasse-paris (GILDER)
> boom 1892       flambée, explosion, fête, accroissement,
> croissance, expansion
> boomer          haut-parleur de graves
> boomerang(effet)choc en retour, retour à l'envoyeur
> booster         survolter, propulser
> boot            botte
> borderline      état limite
> boss            patron, chef
> boum?
> bowling         boulin (ETIEMBLE), jeu de quille
> , boulodrome (D. DAGUET)
> box             stalle, compartiment, enclos?
> boxeur          pugiliste
> box-office      échelle/cote de succès
> boy             garçon, domestique
> boycott         représailles/exclusion économique, blocus?
> D'après le dictionnaire Larousse le terme provient
> du nom du premier propriétaire anglais
> mis à l'index"
> boysband
> boy-scout       garçon éclaireur
> brain-drain     draine-cerveaux (GILDER)
> brainstorming   remue-méninges
> brain-trusts
> brandy
> break           pause
> break (tennis)  vol/usurpation de service
> break (1950)    voiture familiale (EN station-wagon)
> breakfast       petit déjeuner
> brick           ?
> bridge          pont?
> brief
> briefing        réunion, réunionette, info-scéance
> broker          courtier
> bronzing        bain de soleil
> browser         feuilleteur, navigateur
> brunch          (breakfast+lunch) buffet matinal, buffet-repas
> brushing        brossage
> B2B             (Businness to Business) entreprise à entreprise,
> entre-entreprises*
> B2C             (Business to Consumer?)
> entreprise à particulier
> budget
> bug             erreur, défaut,
> ...
> 
> I can't even copy them all here, coz my PC would run out of RAM! It's amazing France isn't considered an anglophone nation. Most of these words I MYSELF don't even say often. Can you imagine - French people use a wider English vocabulary than I sometimes do??
> 
> And the reoccuring theme is that nothing can stop this trend - that I know of?
> 
> Anyone having read that amazing list of Franglais, what do you think?
> French speakers, would you even advise an English speaker to learn French? What benefits does your language have for an anglophone?
> 
> Thanks for not considering me a troll.
> 
> Seriously, I was HURT and DISAPPOINTED to say the least when I found out how badly the French language was doing. I didn't wanna admit that French had passed its heyday. I didn't wanna admit that French could no longer offer than anglophone anything. I didn't wanna admit how French culture, language, power, prestigiousness and prominence in the world was now no more influencial than those of Cuba.
> 
> Thanks.


Just to bring some information from a french native speaker.

I've check the first 30 words of your list and here the results:

- A french who haven't learn english whould know only 14 words.
- 5 of them describe new objects, new jobs and especially for computeur stuff.
- most of time, french use that in informal language.

In fact, we haven't translated new word from new stuf. But I've noticed that theese words were often imposed by advertising.


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## OlivierG

This thread has been initiated more than one year ago by somebody who obviously wanted to make some provocation. And he succeded quite well.
I think it's time now to close it forever.


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