# Uno deve tramestare, abborracciare



## Bob A

Uno deve tramestare, abborraciare finche qualcosa vien fuori.


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## winnie

'one has to rummage and botch until somethihg come out'

does it make any sense?


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## uinni

Uno deve tramestare*[dialectal]*, abborraciare finch*é* qualcosa vien fuori 



			
				winnie said:
			
		

> 'one has to rummage and botch until something comes out'


 
Uinni


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## You little ripper!

winnie said:
			
		

> 'one has to rummage and botch until somethihg come out'
> 
> does it make any sense?


That would be the way to translate that, but "rummage" and "botch" are quite different terms. One assumes that the words would be similar in this sentence.


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## uinni

Charles Costante said:
			
		

> That would be the way to translate, that but "rummage" and "botch" are quite different terms. One assumes that the words would be similar in this sentence.


 
I don't believe so. One rummages to find something useful (to do the work) and then botches it up to sort something out of it 

Uinni


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## You little ripper!

uinni said:
			
		

> I don't believe so. One rummages to find something useful (to do the work) and then botches it up to sort something out of it
> 
> Uinni


You don't botch something up to sort something out of something.  That is contradictory.


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## uinni

Charles Costante said:
			
		

> You don't botch something up to sort something out of something. That is contradictory.


Sorry: a lapsus calami. I meant "to get something out of it"...

Uinni


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## You little ripper!

uinni said:
			
		

> Sorry: a lapsus calami. I meant "to get something out of it"...
> 
> Uinni


You don't botch something up to get something out of something either.  It doesn't make sense in English.


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## uinni

Charles Costante said:
			
		

> You don't botch something up to get something out of something either. It doesn't make sense in English.


 
Then both Garzanti's and Merriam-Webster's dictionaies are wrong:
- "_v.tr._ abborracciare, rappezzare, rattoppare malamente" 
- to put together in a makeshift way



Uinni


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## You little ripper!

uinni said:
			
		

> Then both Garzanti's and Merriam-Webster's dictionaies are wrong:
> - "_v.tr._ abborracciare, rappezzare, rattoppare malamente"
> - to put together in a makeshift way
> 
> 
> 
> Uinni


I'm not saying that abborracciare doesn't mean "to botch up".  I agree.  All I'm saying is that the word doesn't fit into that sentence.  It doesn't make sense!  You don't botch up something to sort it out.  You can rummage to sort something out, but botch up to sort something out is ridiculous!


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## uinni

Charles Costante said:
			
		

> I'm not saying that abborracciare doesn't mean "to botch up". I agree. All I'm saying is that the word doesn't fit into that sentence. It doesn't make sense! You don't botch up something to sort it out. You can rummage to sort something out, but botch up to sort something out is ridiculous!


 
I guess the misunderstanding comes from the "sort s.t. out" *I misused* (I protest I made amends for it  ) and maybe from the fact that you see a "venir fuori" = "come out", which does not mean only "get out from somewhere" but (let's say) "turn out to be".
In the sentence the two verbs are used sensibly and consecutevly: one finds some things (by rumming somewhere) and then botches up what s/he has found to make something out of it.

I guess you could give the best translation (using those correct verbs) after this further explanation...

Uinni


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## lsp

Charles Costante said:
			
		

> You don't botch something up to get something out of something either. It doesn't make sense in English.


Garzanti suggests "_cobble together_" as an alternative, which works (also _botch_ but this meaning, as CC says, is altogether wrong in this context).

Botch means to carry something out badly, make a mess of, or ruin things


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## uinni

lsp said:
			
		

> Garzanti suggests "_cobble together_" as an alternative, which works (also _botch_ but this meaning, as CC says, is altogether wrong in this context).
> 
> Botch means to carry something out badly, make a mess of, or ruin things


 
Although I find the two definitions similar in WM's, I'd rather prefer to use botch, because of the "makeshift" adjective used to define the action... 

Uinni


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## You little ripper!

lsp said:
			
		

> Garzanti suggests "_cobble together_" as an alternative, which works (also _botch_ but this meaning, as CC says, is altogether wrong in this context).
> 
> Botch means to carry something out badly, make a mess of, or ruin things


To cobble means "to put together in a makeshift way". It's better than "botch up", but would you put it in that sentence, Lsp? I know I wouldn't.


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## carrickp

One has to stir the pot until something bubbles up.


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## uinni

Charles Costante said:
			
		

> To cobble means "to put together in a makeshift way". It's better than "botch up", but would you put it in that sentence, Lsp? I know I wouldn't.


 
After this post, I am afraid that those two verbs are practically synonyms. (from the mere definition in MW, of course) I cannot understand though why "to botch (up?)" is so definitely bad here...

Uinni


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## uinni

carrickp said:
			
		

> One has to stir the pot until something bubbles up.


 
This is definitely wrong cause this is not what the sentence says (see previous posts)

Uinni


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## lsp

uinni said:
			
		

> After this post, I am afraid that those two verbs are practically synonyms. (from the mere definition in MW, of course) I cannot understand though why "to botch (up?)" is so definitely bad here...
> 
> Uinni


He gagged on the cookies I made - I really botched up the recipe!
I botched up the plans and we went $100,000 over budget.


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## uinni

lsp said:
			
		

> He gagged on the cookies I made - I really botched up the recipe!
> I botched up the plans and we went $100,000 over budget.


 
By an unfortunate coincidence, I "instictively" used an "*up*" when trying to explain things to CC... this messed up things further... So I have to make amendmets also for for this... (Winnie's version has a "botch" without "*up*")

But I am afraid that you (both) do not use/know the (2nd) meaning cited by MW's dictionary, that I reported (no "*up*" with it) in post #9, so I infer it has been replaced in common practice by "cobble"...

Thank you.

Uinni


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## Girino

would another translation be:

"one has to succeed by trial and error"?


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## uinni

Girino said:
			
		

> would another translation be:
> 
> "one has to succeed by trial and error"?


 
A stretched alternative translation (though the original sentence conveys sort of a proactive action to achieve the result  )

Uinni


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## rma22747

A proposito, ma "tramestare" da quale regione viene?
Io sono di Roma e credo di non averlo sentito mai in vita mia...


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## uinni

rma22747 said:
			
		

> A proposito, ma "tramestare" da quale regione viene?
> Io sono di Roma e credo di non averlo sentito mai in vita mia...


 
Il De Mauro lo riporta nientepopodimeno che come toscano 

Uinni


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## rma22747

Interessante. Bisognerebbe pero' avvertire i nostri amici che stiamo trattando di una parola che non e' da inserire nel loro vocabolario, se non al fine di una (improbabile) traduzione....

-davide


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## uinni

rma22747 said:
			
		

> Interessante. Bisognerebbe pero' avvertire i nostri amici che stiamo trattando di una parola che non e' da inserire nel loro vocabolario, se non al fine di una (improbabile) traduzione....
> 
> -davide


 
Già come pure bisognerebbe leggere i _post_ con più attenzione    (vedi post #3  )

Uinni


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## pwa

uinni said:
			
		

> By an unfortunate coincidence, I "instictively" used an "*up*" when trying to explain things to CC... this messed up things further... So I have to make amendmets also for for this... (Winnie's version has a "botch" without "*up*")
> 
> But I am afraid that you (both) do not use/know the (2nd) meaning cited by MW's dictionary, that I reported (no "*up*" with it) in post #9, so I infer it has been replaced in common practice by "cobble"...
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> Uinni


Dear Uinni,
You really are correct in using "botch" in this sense.  "To botch" once (in centuries past) meant "to patch or repair", but in modern usage it means "to patch in a _clumsy_ fashion" or--more commonly--"to make a mess of;to bungle".  

cheers!
pwa[/I][/I]


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## rma22747

vaguely OT. Non fare l'acidona. Anche se fosse, non mi sembra che #3 contiene una tale esplicita indicazione.   Alcune espressioni dialettali sono comunque entrate nell'uso, mentre questa no... 



			
				uinni said:
			
		

> Già come pure bisognerebbe leggere i _post_ con più attenzione   (vedi post #3  )
> 
> Uinni


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## lsp

uinni said:
			
		

> By an unfortunate coincidence, I "instictively" used an "*up*" when trying to explain things to CC... this messed up things further... So I have to make amendmets also for for this... (Winnie's version has a "botch" without "*up*")
> 
> But I am afraid that you (both) do not use/know the (2nd) meaning cited by MW's dictionary, that I reported (no "*up*" with it) in post #9, so I infer it has been replaced in common practice by "cobble"...
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> Uinni


Cite any dictionary you prefer, I maintain that any other definition of botch (with or without 'up') will not be widely recognized. As you point out, it has fallen into disuse almost (I say with the benefit of the doubt) entirely.


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## ElaineG

> Cite any dictionary you prefer, I maintain that any other definition of botch (with or without 'up') will not be widely recognized. As you point out, it has fallen into disuse almost (I say with the benefit of the doubt) entirely.


 
I agree.  Anyone reading any sentence with "botch" in it will immediately think of mistakes, bungling, etc.  It just can't be used otherwise (anymore).


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## luke_77

Raga, ma che "hell" di italiano è questo?!? eheh...


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## Juri

x rma 22747
TRAMESTARE, oggi certo pochissimo usato,sta per :mettere sottosopra
rovistando(come la Polizia).L'ha usato come sostantivo Gabriele Dannunzio che era di Pescara
....tramestìo, calpestìo, dolci rumori. Ah perchè non son io coi miei pastori!


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## uinni

rma22747 said:
			
		

> vaguely OT. Non fare l'acidon*e*. Anche se fosse, non mi sembra che #3 contiene una tale esplicita indicazione.  Alcune espressioni dialettali sono comunque entrate nell'uso, mentre questa no...


Non sono d'accordo. Se un termine è riportato come dialettale vuol dire che non è (ancora) entrato a far parte della lingua. Non arrampicarti sugli specchi..  

Uinni


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## uinni

lsp said:
			
		

> Cite any dictionary you prefer, I maintain that any other definition of botch (with or without 'up') will not be widely recognized. As you point out, it has fallen into disuse almost (I say with the benefit of the doubt) entirely.


Sometimes I feel I am really unable to make people understand me in English 
That's indeed what I concluded in my post #11 after CC's and your indications.

Uinni


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## You little ripper!

uinni said:
			
		

> Sometimes I feel I am really unable to make people understand me in English
> That's indeed what I concluded in my post #11 after CC's and your indications.
> 
> Uinni


I can only speak for myself but I understand perfectly what you're trying to say.  I just don't agree.


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## uinni

Charles Costante said:
			
		

> I can only speak for myself but I understand perfectly what you're trying to say. I just don't agree.


 
Sorry, I meant post #19!!!!!!

I went back through the thread to cite:


			
				Uinni said:
			
		

> But I am afraid that you (both) do not use/know the (2nd) meaning cited by MW's dictionary, that I reported (no "up" with it) in post #9, so I infer it has been replaced in common practice by "cobble"...


and discovered if was referring to the wrong post 

Uinni


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## lsp

uinni said:
			
		

> Sometimes I feel I am really unable to make people understand me in English
> That's indeed what I concluded in my post #11 after CC's and your indications.
> 
> Uinni


Or to understand others' English. Did I not say "As you point out"? 


			
				uinni said:
			
		

> bisognerebbe leggere i post con più attenzione


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## uinni

lsp said:
			
		

> Or to understand others' English. Did I not say "As you point out"?


Of course, I am a human being (I guess).

Uinni


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