# Andorra la Vella - pronunciation



## EternoBGV

I'd like to know how to pronounce this name properly. 

Should it be pronounced [an'dɔra la' *v*eʎa] with [v] as in English _*v*an_, 
or [an'dɔra la' *β*eʎa] with [β] as in Spanish _be*b*é_ and _cur*v*a_ ?

Thank you in advance.


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## Narcis1

Hi Eterno,

Since Andorra la Vella is in Catalan, pronunciation should be v as van. In fact in Catalan v is always pronounced that way.

Salut!


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## ernest_

Sorry, I don't agree. As far as I know, the /v/ phoneme is only found in Balearic dialects nowadays. In Catalonia it merged with /b/ (and its allophone /β/), so it should be [an'dɔra la' *β*eʎa]. The unstressed /a/ phonemes should be schwas though.


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## Narcis1

Ernest, but if you pronounce vella as B it sounds as beautiful, Bella = Beautiful; Vella = Old


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## ernest_

Yes, "vell/a" and "bell/a" are two well-known homophones.


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## merquiades

Eterno GBV asked if it should be pronounced like /b/ or /v/.  Whereas it is unquestionably true that B and V have merged with most speakers, is it really considered most correct and desired to make Vella and Bella sound the exact same way? Or is it just tolerated and accepted because it's a _fait accompli_ in many areas?

Having said that I want to make clear for Eterno GBV that in normal conversation I'd say few people make the difference at least in Catalonia


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## Narcis1

Although it is true distinction is not usually made, I my opinion it is more correct to do it.


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## ernest_

Your opinion is your opinion. I just want to make clear that in standard Catalan both 'b' and 'v' are pronunced /b/. As an aside note, some singers do make a distinction between 'b' and 'v' when they sing (but not when they speak normally). However, it's not easy to get it right, because they're not used to it, so sometimes they make a mistake and say things like /vlau/, which should be /blau/ no matter how you look at it, because it's spelt with a 'b', 'blau'.


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## gvergara

Tot i que jo no sigui natiu, vet aquí la mateixa pregunta que vaig postejar fa uns dies. Salut

Gonzalo


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## Lurrezko

ernest_ said:


> Your opinion is your opinion. I just want to make clear that in standard Catalan both 'b' and 'v' are pronunced /b/. As an aside note, some singers do make a distinction between 'b' and 'v' when they sing (but not when they speak normally). However, it's not easy to get it right, because they're not used to it, so sometimes they make a mistake and say things like /vlau/, which should be /blau/ no matter how you look at it, because it's spelt with a 'b', 'blau'.



Agreed


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## Favara

ernest_ said:


> As far as I know, the /v/ phoneme is only found in Balearic dialects nowadays.


També a tot el valencià, i trobe que segueix pel nord (dins l'occidental encara) fins prou lluny. I, no n'estic massa segur, però trobe que a l'Alguer també ho fan.
De fet no m'estranyaria massa que a Andorra pronunciaren una V.


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## paparreta

De http://retoc.iula.upf.edu/docs/ortol/Propostaestndard1.pdf

1.2.1
../..
També són pròpies de l’àmbit general tant la distinció clara entre b i v,
que es manté en determinats parlars valencians i orientals, com la confusió
d’aquests sons en b.

It is as much common the spelling of /b/ and /v/ as just /b/.

And from http://dcvb.iec.cat/:

Fon.: *béʎ* (Fontpedrosa, Angostrina, Porté, Prada, Puigcerdà, Martinet, *Andorra*, La Seu d'Urgell, Solsona, St. Llorenç de Morunys, Manresa, Cadaqués, Campmany, Organyà, Barcelona, València); *bέʎ* (Sort, Isavarri, Llavorsí, Boí, Cabdella, Pobla de Segur, Tremp, Tamarit, Fraga, Balaguer, Urgell); *véʎ* (Castelló, Alacant, Alguer); *béј* (Empordà, Garrotxa, Berguedà, Lluçanès, Ripoll, Ribes, Plana de Vic, Vallès, Penedès); *véј* (balear).


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## xxima

I honestly don't know if other catalan dialects make this difference, but at least in the center of Catalonia, we don't dinstingue between /v/ and /b/, that's why we sometimes have spelling diffiuclties, so I would definetly say that it's pronounced /b/ella.


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## jmx

Segons l'informació que jo tinc, a Catalunya sí hi havia una zona de distinció b/v en àrees rurals prop de la ciutat de Tarragona, però em sembla que només la gent gran encara parla així ara (en la zona esmentada). Tampoc a tot València es fa la distinció, crec que al Nord (Morella, Vinaròs, ...) no es fa.


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## vic_toret

Favara said:


> També a tot el valencià [...]



Estic prou d'acord, tret dels nuclis "apitxats", on una de les característiques és la no diferenciació entre aquestos fonemes. Però sí, tota la raó tens.


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## BlaznFattyz

Southern Catalunya where there is more of a Spanish pull the B and V are pronounced distinctively, central and northern catalunya the V and B are pronounced as B.


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## arc_en_ciel

6.4. LA DISTRIBUCIÓ DE LES FRICATIVES LABIODENTALS
La consonant [v] es manté amb valor contrastiu en posició d’obertura en baleàric, en part del valencià i, d’una manera recessiva, en el parlar del Camp de Tarragona. En aquests parlars, la consonant [v] contrasta amb la consonant [f] pel caràcter sonor de la primera i sord de la segona. En els altres parlars, la consonant [v] ha confluït amb la bilabial (realitzada * o [β], segons el context).**

Both consonants are correct, but in Andorra [v] is pronounced as a bilabial one ( or [β]). What's more, Andorra belongs to the western block of the Catalan language and so unstressed a and e are pronounced differently ([a] and [e]), not as schwas: 

"El català nord-occidental posseeix, com el valencià, un vocalisme àton  d'articulació més tensa i de timbre més clar que l'oriental, amb  distinció de a i e (passar [pasá], besar [bezá], tret del cas de a  i e inicials de mot, que es neutralitzen en a, i la distinció de o i u (posar [pozá], curar [kurá]); la -a final pot passar a e oberta o tancada i, més rarament, a o." from Encliclopèdia catalana. http://www.enciclopedia.cat/fitxa_v2.jsp?NDCHEC=0224508&BATE=catal%25C3%25A0#1d772f1c8c4bffce9679df32437e4b288

Andorra la Vella would be so pronounced in Andorra as [an'dɔra/ɛ/e/o la/ɛ/e/o 'βeʎa/ɛ/e/o].*


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## merquiades

BlaznFattyz said:


> Southern Catalunya where there is more of a Spanish pull the B and V are pronounced distinctively, central and northern catalunya the V and B are pronounced as B.



I would think actually just the opposite.  Since Spanish, in Spain at least, has only B (strong and weak*) I would think in areas where it has influence there would be more chance of labiodental V being lost.

*sorry for not having phonetic alphabet letter.  Don't know where to find it.


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## arc_en_ciel

merquiades said:


> I would think actually just the opposite.  Since Spanish, in Spain at least, has only B (strong and weak*) I would think in areas where it has influence there would be more chance of bilabial V being lost.
> 
> *sorry for not having phonetic alphabet letter.  Don't know where to find it.



I totally agree  But I think you wanted to say the *labiodental* consonant /v/ has been lost in a great part of the territory, where there are only the *bilabial* ones (/b/ and /β/).


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## merquiades

arc_en_ciel said:


> I totally agree  But I think you wanted to say the *labiodental* consonant /v/ has been lost in a great part of the territory, where there are only the *bilabial* ones (/b/ and /β/).



Ooh.  You're totally right. My old phonetics professor would definitely not be happy!  V is labiodental and is being lost.


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