# Fluent...



## ThomasK

In Dutch we can translate 
(a) "Things go smoothly" by "Alles gaat *vlot*" (something like fluently). 
(a') "Moving traffic" by "*vlot* verkeer". 

(b) Someone speaks X fluently ['fleetingly, floatingly' lit. ?]) by"Iemand spreekt X *vloeiend*" 
_(It is of course based on "vloeien", to flow, Lat. _fluere _(I think -- as in invloed/ influence, etc. - but that is not the point here)._ 

Now do you use a "flow" adverb/adjective in those cases ? 

English: there is only one parallel, as I pointed out. Or can you find another ? 

German:
(a) Not really, I think, but there is "*flott* aussehend" (smart-looking), "*flott* leben" (go the pace, so I read, live life "smoothly)
(b) "Er kann *fließend* Englisch" (he can [speak] English fluently]


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## Maroseika

Russian: no "flow" in either case.

(a) Things go smoothly - гладко (glassy, smoothly) 
(a') Moving traffic - no special word as far as I know
(b) Speak fluently - бегло (from бег - run) or свободно (freely)


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## ThomasK

Thanks, but then: 
- _glassy_ : is that something like soft ? 
- free-flow traffic (restaurant)
What is the verb _to flow_ in Russian? Do you ever use it in a figurative sense ?


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## DearPrudence

In French:

(a) No direct translation. Maybe something like
*"Tout se déroule parfaitement / bien / sans problème / sans difficulté..."*
(a') *"Trafic / circulation fluide"* (used quite a lot on TV)

(b) *parler couramment une langue* 

But indeed you can say: "*parler avec fluidité*", "*être fluide quand quelqu'un parle*" but it is the same as "speak fluently".
Ex: I speak French faultlessly but when I speak, I stutter, I repeat some words, make long pauses,...
-> _Ce n'est pas fluide quand je parle, je ne parle pas avec fluidité_ (even if my grammar, vocabulary and syntax are perfect)


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## ThomasK

I have been thinking of _couler/ courir_ (as in 'running' water). Pas d'idées ?


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## Maroseika

ThomasK said:


> Thanks, but then:
> 
> 
> 
> - _glassy_ : is that something like soft ?
> 
> 
> 
> No, it's as smooth as glass.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - free-flow traffic (restaurant)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Restaurant? What do you mean?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is the verb _to flow_ in Russian? Do you ever use it in a figurative sense ?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> To flow - течь, протекать.
> Sure, it's widely used figuratively:
> 
> Very widely used prepostion в течение (lit. in the flow of = during)
> Время течет (time flows = passes), время истекло (time has flowed = elapsed)
> болезнь протекает нормально (illness is taking it's normal course)
> Etc.
Click to expand...


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## ThomasK

Restaurant/ traffic: I mainly meant that there are 'free-flow' restaurants: where you can move at a smooth pace, I believe [let yourself be carried on to the next place, like water]. But 'free-flow traffic' does not exist. 

But then : is 'flow' the Russian word for 'dure', or for 'pass'?_ (Thanks and I apologize for asking more questions)_


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## ThomasK

DearPrudence said:


> In French:
> (b) *parler couramment une langue*


 
Could you remind me of the precise meaning of _couramment_? With ease ?


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## DearPrudence

ThomasK said:


> Could you remind me of the precise meaning of _couramment_? With ease ?


I think we'll have to ask someone else because I don't know why we use this expression.

The CNRTL gives:
De façon courante. *A.−* Avec facilité. _Parler couramment une langue étrangère._ _Il lit couramment (__Ac.__)._ _Je parle couramment leur langue_

But I don't know why this adverb was chosen. Now it's just a set phrase. But why was the adjective "courant" chosen, the CNRTL doesn't help...


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## Maroseika

ThomasK said:


> Restaurant/ traffic: I mainly meant that there are 'free-flow' restaurants: where you can move at a smooth pace, I believe [let yourself be carried on to the next place, like water]. But 'free-flow traffic' does not exist.


Sorry, but I have no idea what are you talking about. Free-flow restaurant... Is it some special type of restaurants?



> But then : is 'flow' the Russian word for 'dure', or for 'pass'?


I think both: duration and passing.


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## ilocas2

Czech:

a) It can be f.e.: jde to hladce (it goes smoothly), jde to jak po másle (it goes like on butter)

a') *plynulý* provoz

b) mluvit *plynně*

it's derived from the verb *plynout*

to flow = in Czech *plynout, téct, proudit*, they are not synonymous and are used in different situations


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## merquiades

Courant/couramment (French)
Corriente/ corrientemente (Spanish)
Both stem from (courir/ correr) to run
So if something flows, is fluent it literally runs
The language is running


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## sakvaka

ThomasK said:


> In Dutch we can translate
> (a) "Things go smoothly" by "Alles gaat *vlot*" (something like fluently).
> (a') "Moving traffic" by "*vlot* verkeer".
> 
> (b) Someone speaks X fluently ['fleetingly, floatingly' lit. ?]) by"Iemand spreekt X *vloeiend*"
> _(It is of course based on "vloeien", to flow, Lat. _fluere _(I think -- as in invloed/ influence, etc. - but that is not the point here)._



*Finnish *is your friend.

_Asiat sujuvat._ Things "go as we want it".
_sujuva liikenne _- flowing, progressing traffic
_Sinä puhut sujuvasti ranskaa. _You speak French fluently.

The verb we are talking about is "sujua". Translating it will be very difficult, but I'd suggest "for a thing to go as sy wants it". But it doesn't mean "to flow", that's "virrata" from "virta", current.
_
Sujuuko?_ is a nice one-word question: how are you doing? Is what you're currently doing going well? 

_Sujuva_ is the precent participle of it. _Sujuvasti _is the corresponding adverb.


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## Favara

*Catalan:*
a) _Tot va bé / sense problema / perfectament / *amb fluïdesa*.
_a') _Tràfic *fluït*._
b) _Parla _X *fluïdament*_ / *amb fluïdesa*_.


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## apmoy70

In Greek:
-Things go smoothly: Adj. «ομαλός, -ή, -ό» (oma'los _m._, oma'li _f._, oma'lo _n._); from the same Classical adj. «ὁμαλός» (hŏma'lŏs)-->_even, level, equable_. Etymologically it's a compound formed by the joining together of the adverb «ὁμοῦ» (hŏ'mou)-->_together, at once, together with, along with_, from PIE base *sḗm, _one, together_ + productive suffix which actively forms adjectives that declare an attribute «-αλός» (-a'los) 
-Moving traffic: idem
-Speak fluently: Adv. «ευφραδέως» (efra'ðeos)-->_with correctness of language_; it sounds too archaic though and we simply say "speak with ευφράδεια" (ef'raðia, _feminine noun_); from the Classical feminine noun «εὐφράδεια» (eupʰ'radeiă) a compound formed with the joining together of the prefix «ευ» (eu) meaning _good, well_ from PIE base *(e)su-, _good_ + Classical verb «φράζω» (pʰ'razō)-->_to show forth, tell, declare, suggest_


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## ThomasK

Great! Thanks, everyone! Some extra questions if I may: 
- Greek: I suppose it is wishful thinking when I suggest something must be level to allow for flow ? Do you have a specific verb for flowing, streaming (like water in a river)? Do you use that metaphorically? 
- Finnish: is any philosopher around who could explain to me how other languages refer to this kind of essence Sakvaka suggests and which I understand & appreciate (i.e.: do we have for expressing doing what we are supposed to do)? Thanks !


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## Lars H

Hej

Swedish is very similar, also in this:



ThomasK said:


> In Dutch we can translate
> (a) "Things go smoothly" by "Alles gaat *vlot*" (something like fluently).
> (a') "Moving traffic" by "*vlot* verkeer".
> (b) Someone speaks X fluently ['fleetingly, floatingly' lit. ?]) by"Iemand spreekt X *vloeiend*"(



a = Allting flyter
a' = Trafiken flyter
b = Han/hon talar engelska flytande

The exaples above are proper Swedish. Added to that there is a commonly used slang expression: "Jag hade flyt" (I was lucky) that could be used by a winner at a card table or someone who scored in a soccer game.


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## federicoft

In Italian you can use a "flow" adverb for (b): _parlare correntemente una lingua straniera_.

It's a set verb. The meaning is literally "fluently", "flowingly", despite being used almost exclusively in this kind of context. French _couramment_ is obviously a cognate.

For (a') one would most probably say _traffico scorrevole_. The literal meaning is again the same but for some reason another verb is preferred.


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## ThomasK

Just asking, Federicoft: can you use the _correre/ scorrere_ in a figurative sense ?


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## sakvaka

ThomasK said:


> - Finnish: is any philosopher around who could explain to me how other languages refer to this kind of essence Sakvaka suggests and which I understand & appreciate (i.e.: do we have for expressing doing what we are supposed to do)? Thanks !



The Finnish Wiktionary provides these translations:
English: go, run, pass off, go along
Swedish: gå, avlöpa, fortskrida
German: ablaufen, abrollen

Well, "to go" is quite trivial. I am not sure if any of these grasps the idea.


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## ThomasK

Yes, _go along_ might be good indeed, because then things work out smoothly, move the way that was expected ('as it should'). Fortskrida implies progress, I think, and might be good too. But _aflopen/ avlÖpa, ablaufen_ might be too plain (they do not suggest that things happen the way they ought to, I think): is that correct? 

By the way: can you ever use _virrata_ or maybe a word like _run (juoksu ?) [running water]_ in Finnish figuratively?


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## Lars H

What about "proceed"?


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## Lars H

ThomasK said:


> But aflopen/ avlÖpa, ablaufen might be too plain (they do not suggest that things happen the way they ought to, I think): is that correct?



"Avlöpa" is most often used to describe events that went well, "Firandet avlöpte utan incidenter", "kvällen avlöpte utan några avbrott".

If this means that the word has altered its meaning a bit from "aflopen", I don't know.

"Fortskrida" works excellent and so does "genomföra"


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## ThomasK

Yes, indeed, maybe proceeding (implied: according to 'plan'). Your use of 'aflopen' is interesting, but... Both seem relatively plain again, and especially: without the addition it simply means that it ended, but not necessarily well. So: do those words convey the Finnish word ? I wonder. The way Sakvaka described the word, made me think it had to be more elevated, lofty, and is at least positive as such. Could Sakvaka render the Swedish sentences using _suk..._ ? 

_Genomföra_: implement? I suppose I recognize 'voeren' in it (carry), but the _genom_ seems quite different from Dutch.


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## Lars H

Genom is from the same root as tegen/gegen (against) but it really means through/door/durch. Please don't ask me how that change occured, I don't have a clue...

So, "genomföra" is "follow through" (or it really ought to be "lead through"). Isn't that "Doorvoeren" in your tongue? 

This is a quite active verb - like "I did it!" But is can also be used more passively, to describe a chain of events. "Teaterföreställningen genomfördes på ett mycket bra sätt".


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## ThomasK

Thanks for the very interesting information, but to me the question remains: none of those seem to imply by themselves that things happen 'as they should'  (as you must add adverbials to show that) - or do they?


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## Lars H

Perhaps this could be catched in time related expressions:

"Tiden *gick" (*imperfect of "gå", the time went by) or 
"Dagarna fortskred" (the days went on)
In this sense "genomföra" cannot be used. I Googled "dagarna avlöpte" and got 25 hits, so even if its not as good as the examples above, it's not completely unheard of.


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## federicoft

ThomasK said:


> Just asking, Federicoft: can you use the _correre/ scorrere_ in a figurative sense ?



With _scorrere_ most certainly yes: _il traffico non scorre nelle ore di punta_, traffic doesn't flow in the rush hours; _nell'attesa le ore scorrono lente_, the hours pass slowly while you are waiting; _questa frase non scorre_, this sentence does not flow.

There are some figurative uses for _correre_ as well: _il tuo ragionamento non corre_, your reasoning doesn't flow;_ lascia correre!_, take no notice!


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## ThomasK

Great, thanks a lot, that is the perfect information - and it reminds me very much of how we use _flow_ !


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## apmoy70

ThomasK said:


> Great! Thanks, everyone!  Some extra questions if I may:
> - Greek: I suppose it is wishful thinking when I suggest something must be level to allow for flow ? Do you have a specifiek verb for flowing, streaming (like water in a river)? Do you use that metaphorically?


Yes we do have a verb and a noun:
The verb is «ρέω» ('reo) deriving from the Classical verb «ῥέω» ('rhĕō)-->_to stream, flow_. Metaphorically it's used when someone has a preference, disposition, or tendency; it's used also in the proverbial phrase "the land that _runs_ milk and honey" (runs is «_ρέει_» 'rei, 3rd person present indicative of «ρέω» in Greek).
The noun is «ροή» (ro'i, _feminine noun_) deriving from the Classical feminine noun «ῥοὴ» (rhŏ'ē). Metaphorically it's usually used in compound form, e.g: 
1a/ «Eισροή» (izro'i, _feminine noun_) compound formed by the joining together of the preposition «εἰς» (eis)-->_in, into_ + feminine noun «ῥοὴ» (rhŏ'ē). The _flow_ of capital, in Greek is _εισροή_ (inflow?).
1b/ «Απορροή» (aporo'i, _feminine noun_) compound formed by the joining together of the preposition «ἀπὸ» (a'po)-->_from, away from, separate_ + feminine noun «ῥοὴ» (rhŏ'ē), «απορροή» is lit. the _flow off_. "To derive" in Greek, is «απορρέω» (apo'reo)-->lit. _to outflow, flow off_.

Both «ῥέω» ('rhĕō) and «ῥοὴ» (rhŏ'ē) from PIE Base *srew-, _to flow_


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## olaszinho

[ 
There are some figurative uses for _correre_ as well: _il tuo ragionamento non corre_, 

I am sorry but I do not reckon that the above example is correct, in standard Italian it shoud be: _il tuo ragionamento non Scorre, _not_ corre._
The use of the verb _correre_ instead of _scorrere _may be a regionalism in this context.


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## federicoft

It is an example taken from a vocabulary (Garzanti) so it has to be correct.


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## olaszinho

federicoft said:


> It is an example taken from a vocabulary (Garzanti) so it has to be correct.


 
Ok, I'll take note of this expression, even though I have never heard of it.


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## ThomasK

@apmoy: great, thanks! But then there is no adj. or adv. with ρέω (and that can be used metaphorically), or is there?


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## phosphore

Maroseika said:


> Russian: no "flow" in either case.
> 
> (a) Things go smoothly - гладко (glassy, smoothly)
> (a') Moving traffic - no special word as far as I know
> (b) Speak fluently - бегло (from бег - run) or свободно (freely)


 
Serbian (BCS):

a) (stvari idu) glatko 
gladak=smooth, gladiti=to nestle, glačati=to polish, uglađen=courteous

b) (govoriti) tečno 
tečan=liquid, tečnost=a liquid, teći=to flow, tok=a flow


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## ThomasK

So the main idea is smooth in the sense of polished, not as a result of streaming, etc. 

Is _tok_ the root word ? 

Thanks a lot !
JanG


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## phosphore

The root is _tek/tok_, this is a case of the Indo-European ablaut.


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## ThomasK

One last question: I see you can use _glatko_ derivations metaphorically (_courteous_), but any more like that? And how about these tek/tok words? Do/Can you use them metaphorically?


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## apmoy70

ThomasK said:


> @apmoy: great, thanks! But then there is no adj. or adv. with ρέω (and that can be used metaphorically), or is there?


I'm afraid there is no adj. or adv. But...there is the participle (which is formed as an adjective) «ρέων, ρέουσα, ρέον» ('reon _m._, 'reusa _f._, 'reon _n._); deriving from the same Classical one «ῥέων, ῥέουσα, ῥέον» ('rhĕōn _m._, 'rhĕousa _f._, 'rhĕŏn _n._). E.g. «ρέων λόγος» ('reon 'loɣos)-->_smooth/natural/pleasant speech_, «ρέον ύφος» ('reon 'ifos)-->_natural/pleasant style_


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## ThomasK

Great, thanks ! And I suddenly thought: I should have known because a Greek philosopher once said: Panta rhei !


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## sakvaka

ThomasK said:


> Sakvaka render the Swedish sentences using _suk..._ ?



Yes. Actually 'sujua' is the only word I can think of.

_Juhla sujui ilman välikohtauksia._
_Ilta sujui keskeytyksettä._

Maybe the verb isn't always that positive: an evening can 'sujua' badly. However, when used independently, 'sujua' refers to a success.

Metaphorical flowing or running? Quite rare, only when we are talking about idiomatic currents (traffic flows, order flows, money flows), coming in large amounts.

Development can run in addition to water. I cannot think of anything else, even if I use Google.


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## ThomasK

Just great, you know, quite interesting. I'll be back tomorrow evening, i think, in order to enquire about some of the things you mention.


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## Orlin

phosphore said:


> Serbian (BCS):
> 
> a) (stvari idu) glatko
> gladak=smooth, gladiti=to nestle, glačati=to polish, uglađen=courteous
> 
> b) (govoriti) tečno
> tečan=liquid, tečnost=a liquid, teći=to flow, tok=a flow


 
Bulgarian: гладко/gladko can be used for both a) and b), but I don't think it's the commonest and Bulgarian doesn't seem to have a good equivalent of _fluent_ at all: in a) безпроблемно/bezproblemno - "problemless" is in my opinion commoner, and in b) the most used alternative is свободно/svobodno - freely.


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## jana.bo99

Hi,

Slovenian: 
Govorim tekoče angleško (I speak fluent English)

In Croatian is nothing like that (as I know).

B.


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