# Can a non-native speaker ever be considered "native" for practical purposes?



## KateNicole

I have many friends from Mexico who came to the US when they were in middle school. They're in their mid-thirties now and speak unaccented (if such a thing exists!) English, understand slang, play-on-words, sarcasm, American humor, etc. and never, ever make awkward mistakes that would be atypical of an American. Anyone who didn't know their history would never guess that they weren't born here based on the way they speak English. Considering this, couldn't they say they are native speakers, even if English was the second language they learned? Or what about children of immigrants that didn't learn English until kindergartden but are raised in English-speakign society and are actually more educated and fluent in that language than their parents? They would be native speakers, right?

The reason why I'm asking is this is because I think that "non-native" can turn into a stigma certain people don't deserve to bear. For example, on a few occasions here in the forums, I have seen people both politely informed as well as scolded that if they are not native, they don't really have any right to use slang or swear, or disagree with a native-speaker about the issue. While I believe that one has to be very careful and experienced in the target language when using slang or swearing (especially in mixed company or when among strangers), I also believe that there are many non-native speakers that are _perfectly_ capable of measuring the appropriateness of their language. I have also seen people debate word choice when it is a matter of opinion vs. "right-or-wrong" and it has been implied that the non-native speaker's opinion is simply irrelevant, althought it is probably based on his/her observations of other native speakers. Any opinions?


----------



## fenixpollo

KateNicole said:
			
		

> I have many friends from Mexico who came to the US when they were in middle school. They're in their mid-thirties now and speak unaccented (if such a thing exists!) English, understand slang, play-on-words, sarcasm, American humor, etc. and never, ever make awkward mistakes that would be atypical of an American. Anyone who didn't know their history would never guess that they weren't born here. Considering this, couldn't they say they are native speakers, even if English was the second language they learned? Or what about children of immigrants that didn't learn English until kindergarten but are raised in English-speaking society and are actually more educated and fluent in that language than their parents? They would be native speakers, right?
> 
> The reason why I'm asking is this is because I think that "non-native" can turn into a stigma certain people don't deserve to bear. For example, on a few occasions here in the forums, I have seen people both politely informed as well as scolded that if they are not native, they don't really have any right to use slang or swear, or disagree with a native-speaker about the issue. While I believe that one has to be very careful and experienced in the target language when using slang or swearing (especially in mixed company or when among strangers), I also believe that there are many non-native speakers that are _perfectly_ capable of measuring the appropriateness of their language. I have also seen people debate word choice when it is a matter of opinion vs. "right-or-wrong" and it has been implied that the non-native speaker's opinion is simply irrelevant, althought it is probably based on his/her observations of other native speakers. Any opinions?


 I totally agree with your points, KN. A non-native can be considered as a native for many reasons... and not only because they grew up speaking a language.  

Here are some related threads: Can a monolingual be a good translator? Interpreting into your native language, and will you ever sound like a native?

Cheers.


----------



## KateNicole

Thanks for you corrections, as well as your understanding


----------



## tafanari

I know someone who spoke Polish and only Polish as a child and then moved to the United Kingdom. Sometime soon after, he completely forgot Polish and now speaks only English. His Polish is non-existent. 

I think it's fair to say that first language does not mean native language. It would be absurd to say my "Polish" friend is a native speaker of Polish or that English is his second language even though cronologically it is!

This is an extreme example but I think it sheds some light on the situation that many Spanish-speaking people are in. I have relatives who have gone back and forth, at one point Spanish was their native language, then English took that place, and then Spanish came back, depending on where they were at that time in their lives.


----------



## Brioche

If you start the language before [roughly] the age of 10, and are educated in that language, and live in the country, listen to the radio, watch tv, &c, you can be a "native-speaker".


----------



## Nunty

I am in such an anamolous situation. I was born in Jerusalem and started my schooling here. In the family home we spoke Hebrew and English and another language, but Hebrew was definitely predominant at home, in the street, at school. When I was a young teenager, we moved to the US. To help us kids adjust, we spoke only English at home. I stayed in the US for the rest of my schooling, through doctorate degree.

Although I've been back home for well over 20 years, I still get "accused" of being a non-native speaker of Hebrew. The situation is even more complicated now that I am in a French-speaking monastery: Though I speak French very poorly, it has become my primary language, Hebrew the second.

Funny thing, life.

EDIT: After reading danielfranco's post below, I just want to make clear that the people who bring it up are not (usually) on these forums, but out there in the real-life world. I have a strange accent in Hebrew and people don't know how to place me. I have a strong American accent in English (and French), but sometimes use odd constructions or idioms.


----------



## danielfranco

I think that, since this is a language forum, every contribution should be considered and appreciated because of its own intrinsic value instead of its "pedigree". Especially because, sometimes, a person who is not a native speaker of the language could bring an unexpected perspective that could conceivably provide forum members with better insights into the inner workings of a culturally-laden topic. For example, I do not speak German, but I like the four lines of verse of my signature (*which, unfortunately, I've changed since!!!!*), basing my opinion on the translation provided in the original source. But when I asked about it in the German forum (didn't want to go around with a signature that could very well say something like "death and biscuits to all Martians", just to say anything at all...) they nicely answered my question and then proceeded to discuss the ins and outs of seemingly every single word in the verse, and sometimes discussing even the alternate spellings and how they could affect meaning and intention.
[Ran out of verbiage... finally!]
Peace out...


----------



## Jeswan

Nun-Translator said:


> I am in such an anamolous situation. I was born in Jerusalem and started my schooling here. In the family home we spoke Hebrew and English and another language, but Hebrew was definitely predominant at home, in the street, at school. When I was a young teenager, we moved to the US. To help us kids adjust, we spoke only English at home. I stayed in the US for the rest of my schooling, through doctorate degree.
> 
> Although I've been back home for well over 20 years, I still get "accused" of being a non-native speaker of Hebrew. The situation is even more complicated now that I am in a French-speaking monastery: Though I speak French very poorly, it has become my primary language, Hebrew the second.
> 
> Funny thing, life.
> 
> EDIT: After reading danielfranco's post below, I just want to make clear that the people who bring it up are not (usually) on these forums, but out there in the real-life world. I have a strange accent in Hebrew and people don't know how to place me. I have a strong American accent in English (and French), but sometimes use odd constructions or idioms.



I like this story. It illustrates how more and more complex language issues are getting in a globalized world. Soon there'll veen have to be a third description (if it's not needed already) between native and non native speaker...


----------



## JLanguage

Brioche said:


> If you start the language before [roughly] the age of 10, and are educated in that language, and live in the country, listen to the radio, watch tv, &c, you can be a "native-speaker".


 
Is there an age limit? Most people who start speaking another language more than a few years later than that that won't sound quite like a native speaker, but there are exceptions.


----------



## Setwale_Charm

Yes, this is more than possible to become like a native speaker or even like a very educated native speaker. I have met quite a lot of people who have, mostly one meets such among a very special type of diplomats , who need it for their job, but not necessarily. 
As for comments, well, I think, the majority of people just find it hard to realise that a foreigner can know their language just as well as or better than they do. They attribute it to the desire to show-off. And I have come across cases when non-native speakers were intimidated by that and though being actually right, whereas, 'natives' were not, they were led to believe that they have 'to give way' and shut up. 
But isn`t it the same in many other areas when those who consider themselves more experienced, older, more entitled to something automatically assume the initial priority of their opinion?


----------



## LV4-26

Based on my experience in the FR/EN forum, I can tell you that there are several English speakers there that are as trustworthy as any French native. Therefore, I second KateNicole and the others on this matter.


----------



## francophone

Brioche said:


> If you start the language before [roughly] the age of 10, and are educated in that language, and live in the country, listen to the radio, watch tv, &c, you can be a "native-speaker".


 
I've learnt top speak frnehc before the age of 4, kept studying french at school till i graduated, i also started english when i was 8 and now at college it's all i'm use, according to you i can be a native speaker, for 3 different languages.

For arabic and french, i'm not perfect in both, but that is because i'm francophone, i don't speak any of them purely, meaning that i do mix them, and that's the way my family speaks to, so i guess yes beign francophone i'm native for french/arabic, but i do not excel.

But who does a french friend who is an archeologue, didn't know how to write saoul


----------



## Nunty

My experience is much like francophone's. I was raised speaking three languages at home. I don't speak one of them any more at all, and both of the other two (Hebrew and English) I speak like a very fluent foreigner. Frustrating!


----------



## emma42

Dear katenicole.  I would say that your friends are truly bi-lingual.  I have difficulty with "native" if the person was not actually born in the country where the language is spoken.  This is just semantics, though.  I am thinking of the Latin root of the word, rather than any value judgment.


----------



## mytwolangs

Well with so many accents in different parts of a country, "native" is hard to pinpoint. 
To become closer to native sounding, one must use the language with natives, cause we all know thast books are useless for learning slang.


----------



## francophone

For example, Egyptian's "French" is not the same we use different expressions according to where and how we live, my grand mother is 100% Egyptian but cannot speak fluent Arabic, she speaks fluent French, she surely doesn't speak like French, or Belgians or Ivorians or Tunisians...We've our own accent and special expressions.


----------



## emma42

Then, she speaks French like a native (of Egypt)?


----------



## kdl77

KateNicole said:


> The reason why I'm asking is this is because I think that "non-native" can turn into a stigma certain people don't deserve to bear. For example, on a few occasions here in the forums, I have seen people both politely informed as well as scolded that if they are not native, they don't really have any right to use slang or swear, or disagree with a native-speaker about the issue.


 
I completely agree with you. Discrimination, in many different shapes, is always round the corner...


----------



## emma42

This is a good point, katenicole.  I think we have all seen plenty of non-native  writers who can knock many natives "into a cocked hat", as well as vice versa.  However, if it is a question of rudeness, then the post should be reported to a mod.  It's as simple as that.


----------



## francophone

emma42 said:


> Then, she speaks French like a native (of Egypt)?


 
That's the whole point, that is where my confusion comes from!!

If she can't speak other language fluently, and in the same time she don't use it in every aspect in life, and she has to learn how to communicate in other languages, for  ex. she learnt a bit of italian and ashe must use arabic now, or else she can't communicate.
50 years ago she has a real francophone community, plenty of people to talk to in every aspect almost. But now things aren't the same.

Francophones had to find a midway solution, we can't really express ourselves in what should be our native language(arabic) and we need it. 

And at that stage, at college, everything is done using english, i can only go further if i'm fluent...

This gets me nowhere when i'm trying to imporve my arabic, my eyes get tired so quickly reading it as if it was a language i don't know of. I'm more comfortable with french and english follows.

I donno how to explain it, and i don't know if i expressed myself in a proper way.


----------



## emma42

I think I understand you, francophone.  As my country has not been invaded for rather a long time, I have no experience of this.  I feel bad for you.  But your English is great (except for things like "donno"!!).


----------



## Macunaíma

I think if someone starts to learn a foreign language at a very early age, they can no doubt reach a native-like level in that language. But to do so, he or she will need to have been so fully immersed in the language that very probably they will begin to sound foreign in their own language. Joseph Conrad and Nabokov both wrote novels in English, although they were not native speakers. They were undoubtedly more than proficient. But by "like native" I understand someone whose command of a foreign language is automatic, spontaneous, and who can speak without a trace of a foreign accent. I think being able to do so in two or more languages is all but impossible. If a child or even an adolescent moves to another country with their parents, they will most probably acquire a native accent and a very natural command of their new language, but they will most probably lose touch with their native language. He or she will eventually make the odd mistake and have a little accent in either language.


----------

