# Nazareth or Nazaret?



## Linnets

Which is the correct Hebrew spelling of Nazaret(h)? As far as I know, the form with _-th_ should be the classical one and the spelling with _-t_ the modern (Ivrit) one_._


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## origumi

It's נצרת. The letter "ת" is usually transscripted as "th" in English (while "ט" is "t").


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## Linnets

Thank you very much. But did the _taw_ in Nazaret(h) have a _dagesh_ or not in ancient times?


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## origumi

Linnets said:


> Thank you very much. But did the _taw_ in Nazaret(h) have a _dagesh_ or not in ancient times?


 
No dagesh. I don't think that anywhere in the Hebrew language, biblical or modern, the last letter of the word can get dagesh. Specifically, the ת is neither at the beginning of syllabel (so the beged-kefet rule doesn't apply) nor has any structural reason (like binian pual) to get dagesh.


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## Linnets

origumi said:


> No dagesh.


So was it pronounced with [θ] in the first centuries AD?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_phonology


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## dinji

origumi said:


> No dagesh. I don't think that anywhere in the Hebrew language, biblical or modern, the last letter of the word can get dagesh.


The obvious exception being the second person feminine suffix in perfect where preceded by a consonant: ("pâ'al*t*") amar*t* 'said', katav*t* 'wrote' etc. 


origumi said:


> Specifically, the ת is neither at the beginning of syllabel (so the beged-kefet rule doesn't apply) nor has any structural reason (like binian pual) to get dagesh.


The "structural reason" typically (always??) being quantity/duration = geminated pronounciation.



Linnets said:


> So was it pronounced with [θ] in the first centuries AD?
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_phonology


Your conclusion appears correct if you mean the dental fricative, but I am not sure that the latin transcription with <th> necessarily reflects only fricatives, does it?


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## origumi

My grandmother used to pronounce it as "s" - the Ashkenazi way. She used to sing Bialik's song:

_Sholom rov shuvech tziporo nechmede*s*_
_me-artzo*s* hachom el choloni_
_el kolech ki arev ma nafshi cholo*s*o_
_bachoref beozvech meoni_

Instead of the Israeli Hebrew:

_Shalom rav shuvech tzipora nechmede*t*_
_me-artzo*t* hachom el chaloni_
_el kolech ki arev ma nafshi chala*t*a_
_bachoref beozvech meoni_

It was a soft "t" in most communities, but the pronounciation is not neccesarily identical to Greek theta or Engllish th.


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## origumi

dinji said:


> The obvious exception being the second person feminine suffix in perfect where preceded by a consonant


 
Thanks for the correction. Also in masculine, for example Genesis 3:17

וּלְאָדָם אָמַר, כִּי-שָׁמַעְתָּ לְקוֹל אִשְׁתֶּךָ, וַתֹּאכַל מִן-הָעֵץ


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## dinji

origumi said:


> Thanks for the correction. Also in masculine, for example Genesis 3:17
> 
> וּלְאָדָם אָמַר, כִּי-שָׁמַעְתָּ לְקוֹל אִשְׁתֶּךָ, וַתֹּאכַל מִן-הָעֵץ


In masculine the tau is syllable-initial and not really word-final either, so the case differs a bit.


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## berndf

dinji said:


> Your conclusion appears correct if you mean the dental fricative, but I am not sure that the latin transcription with <th> necessarily reflects only fricatives, does it?


It does. "Th" was originally used to transcribe the Greek aspirated "t" represented by the letter Theta which in Koine Greek changed its pronunciation to the voiceless dental fricative. Hence in later Latin "th" indeed meant the same sound as the "th" in English "thin".


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## berndf

origumi said:


> No dagesh. I don't think that anywhere in the Hebrew language, biblical or modern, the last letter of the word can get dagesh. Specifically, the ת is neither at the beginning of syllabel (so the beged-kefet rule doesn't apply) nor has any structural reason (like binian pual) to get dagesh.


To my knowledge the same rules apply to all 6 allophonic letters, i.e. bet-vet, daleth-dhaleth, gimel-ghimel, kaph-khaph, peh-pheh, taw-thaw: Always a dagesh at the beginning of the word, never at the end (with the one mentioned exception) and sometimes in the middle, in particular in the middle consonants of the intensive binyans.

In Ashkenazi Hebrew the taw without dagesh is pronounced like "s" (voiceless).


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