# Etymology of Turkish "diğer"



## sawyar

It looks like a Persian form, obviouslyدیگر, but I can't find anything beyond that - cognates in Iranian languages, Proto-Iranic form, PIE root, etc.


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## Dib

Not sure about the exact etymology, but Tolman compares it in his Old Persian dictionary with O.P. duvitīya (Skt. dvitīya-), "second". So, I guess, at least he takes the initial di- of digar to be related to PIE *dwo- (two). No idea about the -gar part.


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## fdb

dwitiya- “second” plus kara- “time” gives Middle Persian and Early New Persian duδīgar > dīgar.

The best work about Iranian numbers is Emmerick’s chapter in Gvozdanovic (1991), _Indo-European Numerals, _here specifically p. 320.


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## Dib

Thank you, fdb. That settles it.


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## PersoLatin

fdb said:


> dwitiya- “second” plus kara- “time”


Hi fdb, 
Is kara- “time”, the predecessor of NP kār/کار, also, is بار in دوباره/again/second time, related to kara- or its NP gar?


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## fdb

It seems to be connected with Skt kāla- “time”, sakr̥t “once”, Ossetic kar “age”, Sogdian kryʼ “time, turn”. (Gershevitch, Gramm. of Manichaean Sogdian, section 1120). Also Old Persian hakr̥m "once", NP hargiz, hagriz < hakr̥-iča- “ever, always”.


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## sawyar

@fdb - Turkish has "kere" time/occasion "iki kere" (twice) "son kere" (last time) "bin kere" (a thousand times) - it looks very attractive as a loanword.  Is it one?  Where would it have come from?


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## fdb

The etymology of Turkish kere is contested. It could conceivably be an Old Turkish loanword from Sogdian. Or Arabic karra?

_http://www.nisanyansozluk.com/?k=kere&x=0&y=0_


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## PersoLatin

fdb said:


> hakr̥m "once", NP hargiz, hagriz < hakr̥-iča- “ever, always”.


I am assuming "hakr̥" of hakr̥m "once" and hakr̥-iča- “ever, always”, are the same and mean 'one time', if that's correct, what is /m/ on hakr̥m, is it an ordinal suffix?


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## fdb

PersoLatin said:


> I am assuming "hakr̥" of hakr̥m "once" and hakr̥-iča- “ever, always”, are the same and mean 'one time',



Yes



PersoLatin said:


> if that's correct, what is /m/ on hakr̥m, is it an ordinal suffix?



hakr̥m is a fossilized accusative singular.


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## PersoLatin

Thanks fdb.



fdb said:


> NP hargiz, hagriz < hakr̥-iča- “ever, always”.


another question, is -iča- the same suffix which is at the end of هميشه/hamišé (always) & didn't hakr̥-iča-, like its NP counterpart, mean 'never' & 'ever' but not 'always'?


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## fdb

In Middle Persian -iz is still a productive enclitic particle meaning “also”; in NP it survives only in fossilized forms like hargiz.

In MP hagriz/hargiz occurs with a negative (“not one time” > “never”) or without a negative (“ever”). In NP it usually (always?) occurs with a negative.


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## Treaty

Isn't hamīše made by ham + mēšag where the latter part itself also meant "always" (so it is unrelated to iča)?


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## CyrusSH

Dib said:


> Not sure about the exact etymology, but Tolman compares it in his Old Persian dictionary with O.P. duvitīya (Skt. dvitīya-), "second". So, I guess, at least he takes the initial di- of digar to be related to PIE *dwo- (two). No idea about the -gar part.



"gar" means "expressing a choice between alternatives" (if, whether), "digar" can be compared to "magar" which means "but, other, unless".


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## fdb

agar, gar, and ar are all forms of the same word. They come from Old Persian hakr̥m, discussed above.


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## PersoLatin

fdb said:


> In Middle Persian -iz is still a productive enclitic particle meaning “also”; in NP it survives only in fossilized forms like hargiz.


The NP نيز/niz means "also", isn't its final iz the same, if so, what does /n/ mean?


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## Radik Safin

PersoLatin said:


> The NP نيز/niz means "also", isn't its final iz the same, if so, what does /n/ mean?



Persian  دیگر  (digar) – other, another.

Tajik "дигар" (digar) – other.

---------------------------------

Turkish  "diğer" – other.

 Azerbaijani "digər" – other.


As the moderator says it's just similar words.


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## Treaty

Radik Safin said:


> Persian ... Tajik ... Turkish ... Azerbaijani


They are not similar words but the *same *word. Persian and Tajik are the same language. Azerbaijani and Turkish borrowed it from Persian along with a few other thousand words during the last 1500 years when they were in contact with or present in Persophone lands.


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## Radik Safin

Treaty said:


> Azerbaijani and Turkish borrowed it from Persian ...



Who told you that?


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## PersoLatin

Radik Safin said:


> Who told you that?


You obviously don't agree with  contents of posts #2, 3, 6 above, you then must have a counter argument of similar quality & detail, that argues 'digar' is of Turkish origin & not a straight forward borrowing from Persian.


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## Radik Safin

Here is another similar word. Russian «дикарь» (dikar) – a savage.

Although perhaps the Tajik word comes from the Russian.

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Дикарь
 After all, your languages are related.



PersoLatin said:


> You obviously don't agree with  contents of posts #2, 3, 6 above, you then must have a counter argument of similar quality & detail, that argues 'digar' is of Turkish origin & not a straight forward borrowing from Persian.



The clue is in the Azerbaijani word "digərgün" – 1. other, another; 2. changed, altered.


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## Treaty

Radik Safin said:


> Here is another similar word. Russian «дикарь» (dikar) – a savage.


дикарь is an adjective constructed from the root ди́кии́ (free, wild) whose cognates are seemingly found across Slavic languages (which Russian belongs to)_. _They are only distantly related to Persian/Tajik. Russian or any Slavic language wasn't in a position to loan to Persian/Tajik before 1700s, apart from their ethnonyms. Tajik is the same language as Persian with only a few differences in the choice of words and accent, and some recently borrowed words which doesn't include the millennia-old _digar_.


Radik Safin said:


> The clue is in the Azerbaijani word "digərgün" – 1. other, another; 2. changed, altered.


It's another Persian loanword. Persian _gūn_[_e_] means "feature" or "color". It is a common suffix found in many other Persian words meaning "like" (e.g., _īn-gūne_ "this way", _nīl-gūn_ "color of lapis lazuli", _āb-gūn_ "like water", and of course _dīgargūn_ or _degargūn_ meaning "altered" which is attested in Persian long before there was something called Azerbaijani language). Cognates of _gūn_[_e_] have been attested in Indo-Iranian languages from 3000 years ago (Sanskrit _guṇa_).


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## PersoLatin

Radik Safin said:


> The clue is in the Azerbaijani word "digərgün" – 1. other, another; 2. changed, altered.




Not forgetting گوناگون which has developed from گونه ‌گون, also گندم گون, گل گون etc etc. Of course you would say gol/گل is Turkish too!


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## Radik Safin

Treaty said:


> It's another Persian loanword. Persian _gūn_[_e_] means "feature" or "color".




If the moderator _berndf_ will return my topic ‘Parent language’ then I will answer in detail.


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