# Pronunciation: fluid, hiat



## LoveVanPersie

Hello. There are some sources which differ in pronunciations of _*ui*_ and _*ia*_ in _*fluid*_ and _*hiat*_, respectively. Are they hiatuses or diphthongs?

Sources claiming _*ui*_* is a hiatus*:

Cabré i Prieto 2008, p. 9: "Quan tenim un límit morfològic entremig de les dues vocals, la realització més generalitzada quan la seqüència és accentuada és l’hiat: …, _fluid_."
DCVB: "Fon.: flúit (Barc., Val., Palma). "
Sources claiming _*ui*_* is a diphthong*:

Optimot - 'fluïd' o 'fluid'?:"En canvi, la forma _fluid_ … no porta dièresi perquè les vocals del grup _ui_ formen diftong. Així, s'han de pronunciar amb un sol cop de veu (l'accent recau sobre la _u_)."
IEC - Ortografia catalana, pp. 103, 104 (marked 101, 102): "Cal fer atenció a distingir alguns mots en què la i o la u no formen diftong amb la vocal anterior d’alguns altres de similars en què sí que en formen: …, _fluït_ (participi de _fluir_) i _fluid_ (‘fluent’ i ‘substància fluida’)", "una _i_ feble precedida d’una vocal forta és pronunciada dins la mateixa síl·laba que aquesta, amb la qual forma un diftong decreixent: …, _flu*i*d_".
DNV: [flújt].
Wiktionary: /ˈfɫujt/.

Sources claiming _*ia*_* is a hiatus*:

Cabré i Prieto 2008, pp. 2, 6: "_hi-at_", "_h/i/at"_. (If I type square brackets "[]" here, the text format will be wrong...)
Cabré i Prieto 2004, p. 5: "_hiat_ [iˈat]"
Sources claiming _*ia*_* is a diphthong*:

IEC - Ortografia catalana, pp. 109 (marked 107): "_d_) No s’apostrofa davant _i_ o _u_ amb valor semivocàlic ([j] o [w], respectivament), precedides o no de _h_: _*el* hiat_".
DNV: [ját].
Wiktionary: /ˈjat/.


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## Dymn

I think that according to the spelling norms it should be "flúid", and "hiàt" (one syllable). However I pronounce "flu-íd", "hi-àt"


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## LoveVanPersie

Thank you Dymn!


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## tenienteramires

Those words (<fluid> and <hiat>) are pronounced [fɫújt] (different from <fluït>, pronounced [fɫuít]) and [ját]. But in actual real life pronunciation almost everyone pronounces them as [fɫuít] and [iát], with hiatus. It's like the word <triumf> (a variant of <triomf>), which should be pronounced [tɾíwɱf], but almost everyone says [tɾiúɱf].


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## LoveVanPersie

Thanks! 


tenienteramires said:


> It's like the word <triumf> (a variant of <triomf>), which should be pronounced [tɾíwɱf], but almost everyone says [tɾiúɱf].


Cabré i Prieto 2004 said that _triomf_ is pronounced "_tr_[ˈjo]_mf_", with _i_ pronounced [j]. Is it true and does it apply to _triumf_ ([tɾjuɱf])?


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## LoveVanPersie

Dymn said:


> "hi-àt"





tenienteramires said:


> [iát]


Could this pronunciation be attributed to influence of _hiat_'s meaning?


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## Dymn

_Triumf _is not a correct word, it doesn't appear in the DIEC. Some people might use it because in Spanish it's _triunfo_, that's all. Anyway, for both _triomf_ and _triumf_, the stress is on the second vowel and it has a hiatus (/trj/ is too difficult to pronounce).



LoveVanPersie said:


> Could this pronunciation be attributed to influence of _hiat_'s meaning?


I have no idea.


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## tenienteramires

Dymn said:


> _Triumf _is not a correct word, it doesn't appear in the DIEC. Some people might use it because in Spanish it's _triunfo_, that's all. Anyway, for both _triomf_ and _triumf_, the stress is on the second vowel and it has a hiatus (/trj/ is too difficult to pronounce).
> 
> 
> I have no idea.



'"Triumf" ([tɾíwɱf]) is the original Catalan word and the most used in spoken language. It's used since the Valencian Golden Century, so it's not because in Spanish they say "triunfo". It's also correct, since it appears in the Diccionari Normatiu Valencià. In fact, the variant "triomf" is very modern.


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## tenienteramires

LoveVanPersie said:


> Could this pronunciation be attributed to influence of _hiat_'s meaning?



I've always thought that, but I don't know.


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## tenienteramires

LoveVanPersie said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Cabré i Prieto 2004 said that _triomf_ is pronounced "_tr_[ˈjo]_mf_", with _i_ pronounced [j]. Is it true and does it apply to _triumf_ ([tɾjuɱf])?



I've never heard [tɾjóɱf], always [tɾiúɱf] or, in formal language, [tɾióɱf].


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## Doraemon-

-ia- is *never *a diphtong in Catalan. That's why Dénia, València, independència... are "_esdrúixoles_" and have a graphical accent and Maria, diria, veuria... are "_planes_" and have no graphical accent, and need not one for 'breaking' the diphtong, because it can't even exist, that diphtong. There are no "growing?" diphtongs [vocal feble (i/u)+vocal forta (a/e/o)] excepting gu* and qu*.
_Hiat _has a hiatus, it can't be otherwise.
_Fluid _is a bit more complex. You can hear it in both ways (flújt or flu.ít [or with ending -d]), but for ortographical purposes it is considered a diphtong.

With "triomf" we're in the same case that with -ia-. There's no -io- diphtong, it's as simple as [tri.ómf], at least in normative catalan (you can probably people saying [trjómf] but for ortographical issues and in normative pronounciation [jó] can't even exist)


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## tenienteramires

Doraemon- said:


> -ia- is *never *a diphtong in Catalan. That's why Dénia, València, independència... are "_esdrúixoles_" and have a graphical accent and Maria, diria, veuria... are "_planes_" and have no graphical accent, and need not one for 'breaking' the diphtong, because it can't even exist, that diphtong. There are no "growing?" diphtongs [vocal feble (i/u)+vocal forta (a/e/o)] excepting gu* and qu*.
> _Hiat _has a hiatus, it can't be otherwise.
> _Fluid _is a bit more complex. You can hear it in both ways (flújt or flu.ít [or with ending -d]), but for ortographical purposes it is considered a diphtong.
> 
> With "triomf" we're in the same case that with -ia-. There's no -io- diphtong, it's as simple as [tri.ómf], at least in normative catalan (you can probably people saying [trjómf] but for ortographical issues and in normative pronounciation [jó] can't even exist)



It's not exactly the way you say. <i> and <u> are only pronounced [j] and [w] before a vowel when they are at the start of a word (hiena [jéna], huit [wít]), between vowels (<iaia> [jája], meua [méwa]) and, in the case of <u>, before <q> and <g> (quatre [kwátɾe], aigua [ájɣwa]). Otherwise they are, orthographicaly, hiatus, but in real pronunciation they can sometimes be diphthonhs: València [valénsja], but more formally, [valénsia].


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## Doraemon-

Tens raó, he escrit massa ràpid. També existeix com a diftong a principi de paraula! 
(hiena, iot, iogurt...)
Gràcies per la correcció!
(i sí, clar, sempre segons normes ortogràfiques segons l'estàndard; a la pràctica s'acostuma a fer un diftong, tot i que a mi no em sona massa bé per exemple [dé.nja], sempre he dit [dé.ni.a]).


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## Dymn

tenienteramires said:


> It's also correct, since it appears in the Diccionari Normatiu Valencià.


Okay. Then it's correct for Valencian people.



tenienteramires said:


> '"Triumf" ([tɾíwɱf])


At any rate I think the normative spelling should be _triümf_. Or at least make the stress fall on the _u_. It makes no sense at all to prescribe [tɾíwɱf]_._


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## tenienteramires

Dymn said:


> At any rate I think the normative spelling should be _triümf_. Or at least make the stress fall on the _u_. It makes no sense at all to prescribe [tɾíwɱf]_._



I think the same. I also think the only correct spelling should be <triümf> (pronounced [tɾiúɱf]), since it's the only one used in spoken language, the most traditional, and its variation 'triomf' is a gallicism from de 19th century (according to DCVB).


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## Doraemon-

In Valencian I've always heard it with O [tɾióɱf]   
I always thought it was the typical change o->u like in _ho_, or a _castellanisme_, not a gallicism


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## tenienteramires

Doraemon- said:


> In Valencian I've always heard it with O [tɾióɱf]
> I always thought it was the typical change o->u like in _ho_, or a _castellanisme_, not a gallicism



I've always heard [tɾiúɱf] in spoken day-to-day language. I've only heard [tɾióɱf] in formal language, and possibly it's because it's the recommended form.

According to the DCVB, 'triomf', with an O, it's a gallicism from the 19th century. The original Catalan word is with an U: triumf (or, in medieval Catalan, 'triumfo' and 'triumfe').


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## Doraemon-

Yes, that's what I've read, that's why I'm surprised!
Being of French origin or not, I don't think that anyone decided to write it as in French if nobody said that O.


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