# I-first or I-second?



## elroy

In Spanish, if you want to refer to yourself and another person with "y" ("and") in between, you typically put yourself second, otherwise it's considered rude.

_Marcos y yo vivimos en Madrid. _(I-second) _
Yo y Marcos vivimos en Madrid. _(I-first) __

In Palestinian Arabic, it's the opposite.  The default is I-first, and in fact, I-second sounds totally unidiomatic to me, so much so that I would even consider it wrong.

أنا وماركوس ساكنين بمدريد (I-first) 
ماركوس وأنا ساكنين بمدريد (I-second) 

In English, both are okay and neither is rude:

_Marcos and I live in Madrid._  (I-second)
_Me and Marcos live in Madrid._  (I-first)

What's it like in other languages?


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## Awwal12

Probably the most unmarked way in Russian is, actually, "*we with* smb":
Мы с Маркосом живём в Мадриде (mý s Márkosom zhivyóm v Madríde)

Using "I and smb" or "smb and I" sounds generally bad as the thematic subject. In other positions it emphatically individualizes the constituents.


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## Welsh_Sion

In *Cymraeg/Welsh*, you can use either, but the important thing to note is that the verb and 1st pers. pronoun change.

*Mae Marcos a fi yn byw ym Madrid*
Is Marcos and me/I PRED. living in Madrid
'Marcos and I live/are living in Madrid'

*Dw i a Marcos yn byw ym Madrid*
Am me/I and Marcos PRED. living in Madrid
'Marcos and I live/are living in Madrid'

Trusting you are looking for unmarked forms. Marked forma could stress the 'living' part or the 'Madrid' part or the 'living in Madrid' part, through 'fronting.


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## Olaszinhok

elroy said:


> _Me and Marcos live in Madrid._  (I-fi


Does that sentence sound fine in British English, too?  Just out of curiosity... In all my British English text-books, I have always come across _Mary and I, my husband and I _and so on. I.first should sound pretty informal, but I am not really sure. 

As for Italian, both sentences are correct, but I daresay that the first example is a bit more common and colloquial: _Io e Marco viviamo/abitiamo a Madrid. Io-second_ sounds a little bit more polite and formal.  I'd like other Italians to chime in. There might be some regional variations.


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## elroy

Olaszinhok said:


> Does that sentence sound fine in British English, too?


I can't speak for British English, so hopefully a British English speaker will comment.

In American English, in subject position, only "Marcos and I" is *prescriptively* correct, but *descriptively*, "me and Marcos" is very common.

Some people hypercorrect and use "Marcos and I" in object position!  *Prescriptively*, it should be "me and Marcos" or "Marcos and me."

Note that if you use "I," the pronoun always has to come second ("I and Marcos" sounds horrible).

If you use "me," either position is acceptable in object position.  In subject position, I think "me" has to come first. 

To summarize:

Marcos and I live in Madrid. (P +, D +)
I and Marcos live in Madrid. (P -, D -)
Marcos and me live in Madrid. (P -, D -)
Me and Marcos live in Madrid. (P -, D +)
He spoke with Marcos and I. (P -, D +)
He spoke with I and Marcos. (P -, D -)
He spoke with me and Marcos. (P +, D +)
He spoke with Marcos and me. (P +, D +)


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## Frank78

In German you always mention yourself second (or last if more than two people are involved).

There's even a well-known saying which children get to hear if they do it wrong: "Der Esel nennt sich immer zuerst" (The donkey always mentions himself first).

There are even further rules about the position of various people:

1st - the person you are talking to
2nd - other people involved
3rd - you
4th - everything which is not a human


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## apmoy70

In Greek you can use either, but it's better to mention yourself second or -depending on your conversational partner- you might be considered rude and egotistical:

*«Εγώ κι ο Μάρκος»* [e̞ˈɣo̞.co̞ˈmarko̞s̠] --> _I and Marcos_
*«Ο Μάρκος κι εγώ»* [o̞ˈmarko̞s̠.ce̞ˈɣo̞] --> _Marcos and I_.

«Κι» [ci] is the colloquial & poetic spelling of the phonetically reduced conj. «και» [ce̞] --> _and_, when the next word begins with a vowel.



Awwal12 said:


> Probably the most unmarked way in Russian is, actually, "*we with* smb":
> Мы с Маркосом живём в Мадриде (mý s Márkosom zhivyóm v Madríde)
> 
> Using "I and smb" or "smb and I" sounds generally bad as the thematic subject. In other positions it emphatically individualizes the constituents.


We with smb is considered pluralis maiestatis and it's frowned upon (if you're not royalty, that is)


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## Penyafort

In Catalan, both are possible (_tu i jo, entre jo i la Maria_...), although it is also more frequent and regarded by most as more proper to leave the 'I' for the last place. 

In fact, as in German, the donkey sentence exists too. One who mentions _jo_ in first place might be told: 

_L'ase va davant._ ('The donkey goes first/at the front')​
The sentence also exists in Spanish.

_El burro delante para que no se espante._ ('The donkey at the front so that it isn't scared')​


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## Awwal12

apmoy70 said:


> We with smb is considered pluralis maiestatis and it's frowned upon (if you're not royalty, that is)


Obvious enough, because normally one would really expect "we" in "we + X" not to include X itself. In Russian, however, it happens to work a different way: "+ X" just provides additional information about who "we" are and is included into it. (Of course, that works only for "with + N(instr.)", not for "and + N".)


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## Yendred

In French, it's the same as in Spanish.
Putting yourself first is considered rude, or at least inappropriate or childish.

_Marcos et moi, on vit à Madrid 
Moi et Marcos, on vit à Madrid _

Note that it's the same with other pronouns:
_Marcos et toi   (Toi et Marcos )
Marcos et lui   (Lui et Marcos )_
etc.


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## elroy

What if it's "moi" and "toi"?


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## Yendred

elroy said:


> What if it's "moi" and "toi"?


_Toi _takes precedence over _moi  _

_Toi et moi 
Moi et toi _


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## elroy

One more: what about "toi" and "lui"?

My guess is "toi et lui," to show respect to "toi"? 🤔


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## Yendred

elroy said:


> My guess is "toi et lui," to show respect to "toi"? 🤔


Exactly 

_Toi et lui 
Lui et toi _

Although in that case, I don't feel the rudeness is as obvious as in "_moi et toi_".


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## Olaszinhok

Yendred said:


> Toi et moi
> Moi et toi


Italian must be the most impolite language ever. _Io e te_ is certainly common, I reckon that _tu ed io_ is less frequent. Personally, I would never use _tu e io,_ it sounds awful to my ears_, _but this is probably just me. If I used _Lei_, I would say _Lei ed io..._


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## Yendred

Well I guess it's also a matter of euphony, and it's different from one language to another.


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## Armas

Awwal12 said:


> Probably the most unmarked way in Russian is, actually, "*we with* smb":
> Мы с Маркосом живём в Мадриде (mý s Márkosom zhivyóm v Madríde)
> 
> Using "I and smb" or "smb and I" sounds generally bad as the thematic subject. In other positions it emphatically individualizes the constituents.





Awwal12 said:


> Obvious enough, because normally one would really expect "we" in "we + X" not to include X itself. In Russian, however, it happens to work a different way: "+ X" just provides additional information about who "we" are and is included into it. (Of course, that works only for "with + N(instr.)", not for "and + N".)


Likewise in Finnish but the verb preferentially goes between "we" and "with", and "we" is not necessary: _(Me) asumme Marcosin kanssa Madridissa_ literally "We live with Marcos in Madrid".


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## Armas

Awwal12 said:


> Мы с Маркосом живём в Мадриде (mý s Márkosom zhivyóm v Madríde)


Does this imply they live together, or can it also be used when they don't?
In Finnish this structure is used also when they don't live together, e.g. "Asumme Marcosin kanssa eri kaupungeissa" lit. "We live with Marcos in different cities" i.e. I live in city A and Marcos in B.


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## Awwal12

Armas said:


> Does this imply they live together


No, it doesn't. That would require adding "together" (вместе - vméste) and probably some rephrasing too.


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## elroy

Olaszinhok said:


> Italian must be the most impolite language ever.


Or maybe it's Palestinian Arabic. 



Olaszinhok said:


> _Io e te_ is certainly common, I reckon that _tu ed io_ is less frequent. Personally, I would never use _tu e io,_ it sounds awful to my ears_, _but this is probably just me. If I used _Lei_, I would say _Lei ed io..._


In a combination of "I" and another pronoun, I would always put "I" first.

أنا واياك/واياكي/واياه/واياها/واياكم/واياهم ("me and you*/you**/him/her/you***/them")

*masculine singular
**feminine singular
***plural


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## bearded

Olaszinhok said:


> As for Italian, both sentences are correct, but I daresay that the first example is a bit more common and colloquial: _Io e Marco viviamo/abitiamo a Madrid. Io-second_ sounds a little bit more polite and formal


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## Welsh_Sion

https://meithrin.cymru/cylch-ti-a-fi/?lang=en

Baby and toddler groups in Cymru/Wales: *Cylchoedd Ti a Fi* (Lit., 'You and Me Circles').

Obviously, the baby/toddler takes precedence ...


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## PA_System

In Polish both are possible and I-first is, I think, more common.


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## AutumnOwl

In Swedish the I-second is the norm, especially in writing and when you want to be polite. The I-first seems to be used more among children and younger people.


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## ThomasK

Dutch: "*X en ik*". Just a matter of convention. I remember being told off - not too unfriendly - for saying "I and X". It just seemed too impolite to put yourself first! But as a result of that it may begin to appear like a matter of euphony, but I am fairly sure it was a matter of morality back then - at least here in Belgium...


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