# pronunciation of the n at the end of a word



## Englishisgreat

Dear all,

I have a question regarding some words in Netherlands or Flemish. Ik kan het niet begrepen. Is it right that the n is not pronounced with the word begrepen ? The same applies for spelen or lopen ?

Does exist a general rule ?

Best regards

Christos


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## miss estrella

Englishisgreat said:


> Dear all,
> 
> I have a question regarding some words in Netherlands or Flemish. Ik kan het niet begrijpen. Is it right that the n is not pronounced with the word begrepen ? The same applies for spelen or lopen ?
> 
> Does exist a general rule ?
> 
> Best regards
> 
> Christos


In formal speaking the 'n' is promounced, but when we speak a bit sloppy we don't pronounce the 'n'. if exaggerated it can sound like begrijpuh, speluh, lopuh, the last 'e' is always swja, 'stom' (mute?). But it should be a sort of not very strong 'n'.


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## Englishisgreat

Thanks for your feedback


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## eno2

> *uitspraak - eind-n*
> Als we gewoon spreken, laten we de eind-n dikwijls weg. Alleen als we declameren of voordragen, laten we al die n'en nadrukkelijk horen. Dat klinkt dan ook meteen gedragen, gewoon spreken doen we dan niet meer. Op radio en televisie _kunne_ we beter de eind-n niet altijd _late hore_, want we _willen_ op een doodgewone manier tegen ons publiek _spreke_.


uitspraak - eind-n | VRT-Taalnet



[Partly translated: In common speech, we often  don't pronounce the end-n. If we pronounce it consistently, declaiming or reciting  for instance, it's not normal speech any more. ]
But there's no rule or obligation  to drop the end-n altogether in speech or to pronounce it, except for a few cases highlighted in this VRT link.
Personally I always thought it more typical of the Dutch to drop the end-n, but I have to admit  I also  mostly drop it. But certainly not always.
Anyhow, not articulating end-n isn't sloppy at all.
If you want to irritate your listeners constantly, always pronounce the end-n.
[*...on radio and TV, we want to address our public in a normal manner, so better not always pronounce the end-n]*



Englishisgreat said:


> I have a question regarding some words in Netherlands or Flemish.


Dutch


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## Englishisgreat

Hallo,

Bedankt voor uw antwoord en de informatie. Ik zal in de toekomst het n weglaten.

Fijne dag nog.

Groetjes

Christos


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## eno2

You're welcome


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## Red Arrow

Englishisgreat said:


> Hallo,
> 
> Bedankt voor uw antwoord en de informatie. Ik zal in de toekomst het n weglaten.
> 
> Fijne dag nog.
> 
> Groetjes
> 
> Christos


As already mentioned in Eno's quote, it is very common to keep the N if the next words starts with a vowel.

We ete pas om zes uur.
We eten om zes uur.

This happens in both the Netherlands and Flanders, but I think it is more common in Flanders.

In some areas, it is also common to keep the N before BDHT. This is called the Eifeler Regel in German (f.i. Luxembourgish), but Luxembourgers also drop the N before B.
And in West-Flanders it is common to keep every N


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## Peterdg

Englishisgreat said:


> Ik zal in de toekomst het n weglaten.


No, don't.

Don't try to mimic native speakers; you'll make mistakes that are much worse (ridiculous) than pronouncing the end-n.


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## Englishisgreat

Hello Peterdg,

You mean it is better at any case to keep the n when speaking with Dutch and Flemish people to avoid mistakes and misunderstandings ? 

Best regards

Christos


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## eno2

Peterdg said:


> No, don't.
> 
> Don't try to mimic native speakers; you'll make mistakes that are much worse (ridiculous) than pronouncing the end-n.



Always articulate n then? I wouldn't trash the VRT advice so totally: drop the n is "normal speach", it says..
It's no ridiculous mistake if you drop the n. Also it's an easy habit  and more spontaneous.

  Alternating a bit can be done  safely before a vowel: We eten om zes uur, as Red Arrow said.



Red Arrow :D said:


> And in West-Flanders it is common to keep every N


_As almost always "Bacht'n de kupe", the "swa"-e disappears even totally before the n. 
met de poepers zitt'n  
j'is te ljilijk om t' elpn dund'r'n. etc...

We don't like the 'swa'-e  in West Flanders. 

_


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## Peterdg

eno2 said:


> Always articulate n then? I wouldn't trash the VRT advice so totally: drop the n is "normal speach", it says..


You have to know when top drop it. If you proniunce e.g. the word "en" without the final "n", then you are wrong. On the other hand, pronouncing it always, you are never wrong.


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## eno2

"En" is no "schwa".
Bon het is lang geleden maar ik herinner mij de fameuze systematische of maniakale  n-beklemtoner Karel Jonckhere.
Maar zelfs hij zegt: "Mijn Alpennnmuts diep over de *oge(!!!) * getrokke*NNNNNN"*

Ik heb de audiolink  maar dat mag hier niet.

En is no 'schwa'.
It's a long time ago but I remember very well the famous Flemish poet and systematic  or maniacal n-accentuater Karel Jonckhere.
But even he says this:
"...Mijn Alpennnmuts diep over de *oge (!!!!!) * getrokke*NNNNNN"
*
I possess the audiolink but such links are not permitted here.

Dat doet mij denken aan de hele heisa over de  tussen-n (orthografische heisa)
Die wordt genadiglijk haast nooit uitgesproken. Pannekoek. (Pannenkoek)

Makes me think of all the brouhahaha about the intermediate n in compound words (ortographical brouhahaha that is)
Mercifully that n gets almost never pronounced. Pannekoek, not pannenkoek.


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## eno2

Englishisgreat said:


> Ik kan het niet begrepen.



Ik kan het niet begrijpen of ik heb het niet begrepen.


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## Peterdg

eno2 said:


> "En" is no "swa".


If you want a schwa: the undefined article "een". You also need to pronounce the end-n there.


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## eno2

Peterdg said:


> If you want a schwa



It's all about schwa here, remember?
Een is only mute (schwa) *as an article *and as such is always pronounced 'n
Een as a numeral, a personal pronoun, a noun  is no schwa at all.


 You can't drop the n in such a monosyllabic  word without reducing it to a single remaining schwa.

Seems you've found by and large 1 exception of the need of pronouncing the n after a schwa...


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## bibibiben

Englishisgreat said:


> Hello Peterdg,
> 
> You mean it is better at any case to keep the n when speaking with Dutch and Flemish people to avoid mistakes and misunderstandings ?
> 
> Best regards
> 
> Christos



If the choice is between always dropping n after schwa and never dropping n after schwa (which is an extremely simplified choice), you'd be better off by dropping the n's altogether in large parts of the Netherlands.

Even n before a vowel can be dropped. Just make sure that your schwa is not overly pronounced. You can easily get away with _open ogen_ pronounced as ['oːpᵊ 'oːɣə], but once you have clearly said ['oːpə] you're practically bound to say ['oːpən 'oːɣə] as well. Muffle your schwas and you're safe!


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## Red Arrow

Peterdg, I have no idea what you are trying to say. I cannot think of ANY situation where it would be confusing if someone dropped the N except maybe the word 'teken'.

ik teke*n* (I draw) <=> het teke (the sign)

But even then the context would give away the meaning immediately.
So I agree with Bibibiben.


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## eno2

bibibiben said:


> If the choice is between always dropping n after schwa and never dropping n after schwa (which is an extremely simplified choice), you'd be better off by dropping the n's altogether in large parts of the Netherlands.


Sure:


eno2 said:


> I always thought it more typical of the Dutch to drop the end-n,





> Bibibiben:
> Even n before a vowel can be dropped. Just make sure that your schwa is not overly pronounced. You can easily get away with _open ogen_ pronounced as ['oːpᵊ 'oːɣə], but once you have clearly said ['oːpə] you're practically bound to say ['oːpən 'oːɣə] as well. Muffle your schwas and you're safe!


Sure, but


eno2 said:


> Alternating a bit can be done  safely before a vowel: We eten om zes uur, as Red Arrow said.


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## eno2

Red Arrow :D said:


> , I have no idea what you are trying to say. I cannot think of ANY situation where it would be confusing if someone dropped the N


 I don't think Peterdg said or meant 'confusing for the listener'. He said the speaker would make _himself _ridiculous for not knowing when to drop or not to drop the n.

He came up with only ONE word where it would be confusing (for the listener) to drop the N: the article "Een".


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## LoveVanPersie

eno2 said:


> uitspraak - eind-n | VRT-Taalnet


The webpage says:
"De eind-n van de eerste persoon enkelvoud van de tegenwoordige tijd is meestal te horen.
_ik teken
ik open"_
What about their singular imperatives _teken_ and _open_ with the same spellings?


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## Deleted721968

Englishisgreat said:


> I have a question regarding some words in Netherlands or Flemish. Ik kan het niet begrepen. Is it right that the n is not pronounced with the word begrepen ? The same applies for spelen or lopen ?
> 
> Does exist a general rule ?


I'm  not a native speaker, but there's no formal rule for pronunciation in Dutch. In fact:



eno2 said:


> there's no rule or obligation  to drop the end-n altogether in speech or to pronounce it, except for a few cases highlighted in this VRT link.





eno2 said:


> "En" is no "schwa".


I disagree. According to P.C. Paardekooper (ABN-uitspraakgids):

begrijpen = [bə'grɛipə]

There's definitely a schwa at the end. 

begrijpen - Vertaling Nederlands-Engels
*begrijpen*
 werkw.


Uitspraak:  [bəˈxrɛipə(n)]


begrijpen - Translation from Dutch into German | PONS

I can hear a schwa before the -n.


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## Peterdg

castagnaccio said:


> I disagree. According to P.C. Paardekooper (ABN-uitspraakgids):


Eno2  (and I) meant the word "en" ("and" in English), not the ending of an infinitive like it is in "begrijp*en*"


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## Red Arrow

LoveVanPersie said:


> The webpage says:
> "De eind-n van de eerste persoon enkelvoud van de tegenwoordige tijd is meestal te horen.
> _ik teken
> ik open"_
> What about their singular imperatives _teken_ and _open_ with the same spellings?


Their N is also pronounced  

a tick = een teek
ticks = teken (N can be dropped)
a sign = een teken (N can't be dropped, at least not in Standard Dutch)
I draw = ik teken (N can't be dropped)
Draw! = Teken! (N can't be dropped)

My personal advice for you: ONLY drop the N in the suffix -en (meaning: plural/infinitive/interfix), not in words that just happen to end with "en". Don't drop the N in "een". When someone says their name without N, then say it like that. Otherwise say it with N.


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## LoveVanPersie

Dank je wel!


Red Arrow said:


> a sign = een teken (N can't be dropped, at least not in Standard Dutch)


So the IPA on woorden.org are wrong!


Red Arrow said:


> drop the N in the suffix -en (meaning: plural/infinitive/interfix)


What about plural _-en _in the middle of a proper name like _s'-Hertogenbosch_ and '_s-⁠Gravenhage_? The webpage says "In eigennamen wordt een n midden in het woord altijd uitgesproken."

And... I also wonder if the _n _of the adjective _open_ and first name Kirsten could be dropped?


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## Deleted721968

LoveVanPersie said:


> Dank je wel!
> 
> So the IPA on woorden.org are wrong!
> 
> What about plural _-en _in the middle of a proper name like _s'-Hertogenbosch_ and '_s-⁠Gravenhage_? The webpage says "In eigennamen wordt een n midden in het woord altijd uitgesproken."
> 
> And... I also wonder if the _n _of the adjective _open_ and first name Kirsten could be dropped?


You can omit all the -n at the end if you want. The pronunciation guide on woorden.org is pretty good, but they don't use standard IPA.


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## Red Arrow

Like most female names, I personally wouldn't drop the N in Kirsten. I don't know why that is.

Yes, the N in "teken" (sign) and "open" (the adjective, not the verb stem!) can be dropped, but you will never hear that on VRT NWS. It is not Standard Dutch.

The N at the end of a verb stem (Draw! Open! I draw. I open.) is never dropped by anyone, as far as I know. Not even in dialects. It is probably the only clear rule 

The rule about place names also seems true to me.


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## LoveVanPersie

Red Arrow said:


> The rule about place names also seems true to me.


Ah sorry, does _the rule_ here mean the rule on the webpage or your dropping rule?


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## Red Arrow

The rule on the webpage, but only for interfix -en-, not for the suffix -en. For instance, the N in Tienen can be dropped.


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## LoveVanPersie

Did your _interfix_ simply mean _-en- _in the middle of word and _suffix _simply mean at the end of word?  

For example, '_s-Hertogenbosch _and _'s-Gravenhage_ is from _des hertogen bosch_ (“the duke's forest”) and _des graven hage_ (“the count's hedge”) according to Wiktionary, so I think their _-en _are genitive suffixes. Would you drop their _n_'s?  

And what about middle _-en_ in other proper names like the surname Gusse*n*hoven?


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## Deleted721968

There's an excellent, albeit a bit dated, pronunciation dictionary which can be downloaded for free and can answer most pronunciation questions:
P.C. Paardekooper, ABN-uitspraakgids · dbnl

(see page XV, para n for -_en_ words)


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## aprendiendo argento

There is a regional variation at play as well.
In Belgium, West Flanders people are more likely to pronounce the final n.
In the Netherlands, people from eastern and northeastern regions, closer to Germany are more likely to pronounce it, and do it in the German way lopen ['lo: pn̩] (compare with German laufen  [ˈlaʊfn̩])  instead of [lo: p ə].
I find [lo: pə] easier on the ear and on the lips to pronounce.


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## bibibiben

Red Arrow said:


> As already mentioned in Eno's quote, it is very common to keep the N if the next words starts with a vowel.
> 
> We ete pas om zes uur.
> We eten om zes uur.
> 
> This happens in both the Netherlands and Flanders, but I think it is more common in Flanders.
> 
> In some areas, it is also common to keep the N before BDHT. This is called the Eifeler Regel in German (f.i. Luxembourgish), but Luxembourgers also drop the N before B.
> And in West-Flanders it is common to keep every N


It's a common thing in the Netherlands as well. In some parts of the Netherlands this phenomenon can be observed as well, though:

We et'om zes uur.

Or even:

W'et'om zes uur.

IPA for _w'et'om_:

[ʋeɪtɔm]

Or:

[ʋ'eɪtɔm] 

Or:

[ʋeɪt'ɔm]

Or (rarely):

[ʋ'eɪt'ɔm]

No schwa, no n. Merely weakly pronounced glottal stops at most. You will most likely not encounter this phenomenon in the north or east or the Netherlands, but anything goes in the west or the south. Wild things are going on there.


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## LoveVanPersie

castagnaccio said:


> There's an excellent, albeit a bit dated, pronunciation dictionary which can be downloaded for free and can answer most pronunciation questions:
> P.C. Paardekooper, ABN-uitspraakgids · dbnl
> 
> (see page XV, para n for -_en_ words)


Thanks for your sharing castagnaccio!


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