# Urdu, Persian: qaumii taraanah



## mundiya

PKhan saahab's question about "jana gaNa mana" piqued my interest in the "qaumii taraanah".  The Government of Pakistan considers it to be Urdu.  Do you agree with that assessment, and do Urdu speakers have difficulty understanding it?  Based on the lyrics, all of the words are from Persian (some ultimately Arabic), with the exception of two words: "tuu" and "kaa".

Thanks.


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## marrish

I can understand each and every word and the meaning too. My opinion might not be representative as I have always had an affinity with the Persian language since my childhood but even those who didn't, understood it in the school.

Given that 'kaa' and 'tuu' is not Persian but Urdu and the rest is Urdu and most of it Urdu/Persian, I would follow the government's classification.

On a light note, there is another 'pure' Urdu word there, that is "Pakistan".


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## mundiya

marrish saahab, are all of the Persian words in the anthem a part of the Urdu lexicon?


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## marrish

Yes, definitely, at least in my opinion. I just have read the text before posting and I asked myself the same question so I can be quite certain although the question arises whether _shaad-baad paa'indah-baad and taabindah-baad_ are. In my opinion, again, yes, they are certainly now but I think they were also used before. There is even a Sanskritic feature of leaving the auxiliary verb "is" out.


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## mundiya

Are there other examples of (due to the lack of a better term) hyper-Persianized Urdu along the lines of qaumii taraanah?


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## HZKhan

Other than 'baad', all other words are part of the Urdu lexicon and most of them are commonly used. I can't say for everyone, but those who are familiar with Classical Urdu literature will not have any trouble understanding it.


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## marrish

But Pakistani Khan SaaHib, would you not include 'zindah-*baad*' and the likes in Urdu lexicon? For the rest I agree with you without having made a single search for those words in any Urdu dictionary.


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## HZKhan

mundiya said:


> Are there other examples of (due to the lack of a better term) hyper-Persianized Urdu along the lines of qaumii taraanah?



Mirza Ghalib has used hyper-Persianized Urdu for his many poems.
taa kujaa ai aagahii rang e tamaashaa baaxtan?
chashm e vaa-gardiida aaghosh e vidaa3 e jalva hai


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## HZKhan

Prose writers of 19th century also used to write in a hyper-Persianized idiom.

For example:
"xosha-chiin e xirman e arbaab e ilm o hunar o ramz-shinaasaan e daqaaiq e ma3aani-parvar e 3aali-paaygaah o xaak e raah sayyid muhammad hussain jaah bagosh e hosh e suxandaan e zii-hosh e xataa-posh 3arz-rasaa hai keh daastaan e amiir hamza fasaana e dilkash o marghoob e pasandiida e har taalib o matloob hai, zahe gauhar e dariyaa e xush-bayaani zahe aaftaab e sipehr e zor-bayaani, keh zabaan e tausiif o bayaan e ta3riif nisbat is ke qaasir hai."
(Muhammad Hussain Jaah, preface to his book 'tilism e hoshrubaa')


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## marrish

Wow, Pakistani Khan SaaHib. I'm flabbergasted at your ability to provide this. Believe me, I didn't think there were such prose examples to be found easily. 
What can be difficult for the contemporaries  of you and I, is perhaps the syntax not the words.  But it is not the case in _qaumii taraanah _which is a poetry piece and any syntax is very easy there (again, my opinion).


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## tarkshya

Let me ask this question from another angle too. I am asking this question to Persian speakers who don't speak Urdu. How much can they understand the song in question? In its entirety, or the gist of it, or nothing at all?


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## marrish

^ For this you would have to cite the text as Persian speakers are not generally familiar with this text.


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## mundiya

Thank you for the examples PKhan saahib.  Also please take a look at marrish saahib's question in post 7 about the use of "baad".  I'd like to know if you feel the "baad" in the song represents the same word.

Here is a reference to the lyrics.  It will be good if our Persian speaking friends could comment on their understanding of the song. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qaumi_Taranah#Lyrics


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## Qureshpor

mundiya said:


> PKhan saahab's question about "jana gaNa mana" piqued my interest in the "qaumii taraanah".  The Government of Pakistan considers it to be Urdu.  Do you agree with that assessment, and do Urdu speakers have difficulty understanding it?  Based on the lyrics, all of the words are from Persian (some ultimately Arabic), with the exception of two words: "tuu" and "kaa".Thanks.


There is a song from the film "na'ii umar kii na'ii fasal" which begins with the words "kaarvaaN guzar gayaa". In this song there is a line..

chaah to nikal sakii nah, par *umar* nikal ga'ii"

An Urdu poet named Raj Kumar "Qais" does not regard this as an Urdu song, purely from the perspective that the writer of the song (Gopal Das Neeraj) has used the word "umar" as opposed to "3*umr*", the emphasis being not on the 3 but on the fact that there is no intervening vowel between the m and the r. This, I did feel was somewhat too strict a line of thought but in terms of Urdu poetry, he was absolutely right. The inclusion of "kaa" and "tuu" is a much more stronger reason to exclude Pakistan's National Anthem (qaumii-taraanah) from the fold of it being in Persian. No Persian speaker would use "kaa" in their speech to mean "of". So, by this piece of information alone, the taraanah is in Urdu and the inclusion of Persian in the title is therefore totally unjustified. More on this to follow.

I don't know the logic behind the statement "The government of Pakistan considers it to be Urdu". The government of Pakistan did ask for an anthem to be penned and a committee was set up consisting of several men of letters. The National Language of Pakistan is Urdu and a "qaumii taraanah" (National Anthem) was the need of the time. It is therefore logical to assume that the poets would n't come up with a "taranah" that is in any other language but Urdu!

Let's now take a look at the Urdu words in Roman transliteration, paying attention to each word.

paak sar-zamiin shaad* baad* 
kishvar-i-Hasiin shaad* baad *
tuu nishaan-i-3azm-i-3aalii-shaan 
'arz-i-paakistan 

markaz-i-yaqiin shaad* baad *

paak sar-zamiin kaa nizaam 
quvvat-i-uxuvvat-i-3avaam 

qaum, mulk, saltanat 
paa'indah, taabindah *baad *

shaad* baad* manzil-i-muraad 

parcham-i-sitaarah-o-hilaal 
rah-bar-i-taraqqii-o-kamaal 

tarjumaan-i-maazii, shaan-i-Haal 
jaan-i-istiqbaal 

saayah-i-xudaa-i-zu_ljalaal 

..............................................................

paak- as in paakistaan , paak meaning "pure". This word is used quite a lot in Indian media in its opposite sense...naa-paak. 

sar-zamiin- land- common everyday word in Urdu 

shaad - happy -common everyday word

kishvar- country - known by all educated Urdu speakers

Hasiin  - beautiful - common everyday word

nishaan - sign - common everyday word

3azm - determination - common everyday word

3aalii-shaan ... glorious/great - common everyday word

'arz - land - not so common but any educated person will know it. The globe is known as "kurrah-i-'arz" (land-ball)

markaz - centre - common everyday word

yaqiin - belief - common everyday word

nizaam - system- common everyday word - (I am sure people from Hyderabad will be familiar with this word)

quvvat - strength - common everyday word

uxuvvat - brotherhood - not common but would be understood by any educated person

3avaam - people - common everyday word

qaum - nation - common everyday word

mulk - country/dominion - common everyday word

saltanat - sovereignty- common everyday word

paa'indah - durable/lasting - quite common

taabindah - bright/radiant - not so common but understood by any educated speaker

manzil - destiny -common everyday word

muraad -desire- common everyday word

parcham - flag -common everyday word

sitaarah - star -common everyday word

hilaal - crescent - used especially in the sense of "3iid kaa chaand". So, it is used regularly. hilaal-i-aHmar is the Red Crescent (cf the Red Cross)

rah-bar - guide - common everyday word

taraqqii - progress - common everyday word

kamaal - perfection - common everyday word

tarjumaan - representative/interpreter - common everyday word

maazii - past - common everyday word

Haal - present - common everyday word

jaan -life/soul -common everyday word

istiqbaal - future - not common.. the usual Urdu word is mustaqbil. Once again an educated person will make an easy connection with maazii, Haal and then istiqbaal

saayah - shadow - common everyday word

xudaa - God - common everyday word

jalaal - grandeur - common name as in Jalaalu_ddiin Akbar- would be understood by an educated person.

zu_ljalaal -jalaal vaalaa - There are a number of Urdu words which have the prefix "zuu" giving the word meaning of "possessor of x"

Now coming to "baad". "zindah-baad" is a good example and yes, the "baad" in "shaad-baad" has the same meaning as the "baad" in "zindah-baad", that is "ho" or "rahe". Another common example is "mubaarak-baad" meaning "mubaarak ho". So, baad is not such an uncommon word after all. In fact it is used on a daily basis on people's birthdays, success in examinations, getting the sought-after job and so on. "zindah-baad" is used in a famous song "ai muHabbat zindah-baad" from a "Hindi" film named "muGhal-i-a3zam". The opposite of "zindah-baad" is...you guessed it..murdah-baad which should also be familiar to our Hindi speaking friends.

Apart from "kaa", why is n't the anthem in Persian? Well, in Persian the adjective normally follows the noun. 

(ai) paak sar-zamiin shaad-baad ....ought to be (ai) sar-zamiin-i-paak shaad-baad.

I hope I have answered all the questions. I'll have to say "xair-baad" to this post now!


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## eskandar

Though I am not the sort of Persian speaker you're probably looking for as I've also studied Urdu, I can say that a Persian speaker (who didn't know any Urdu) would understand most of the song but would not consider it Persian. As QP SaaHib pointed out, the adjective-noun order is reversed in Persian. A Persian speaker might even be tempted to misread the unfamiliar syntax of پاک سرزمین شاد باد _paak sarzamiin shaad baad_ ("May the pure land be joyful") as the more familiar پاکیِ سرزمین شاد باد _paakii-e sarzamiin shaad baad_ ("May the purity of the land be joyful"). And of course, as indicated above, the line پاک سرزمین کا نظام _paak sarzamiin kaa nizaam_ would be incomprehensible to Persian speakers despite knowing 3/4 of the words.


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## marrish

_shaad-baash_ to QP and eskandar SaaHibaan, or if they prefer, _shaabaash_. QP SaaHib, thanks for the detailed analysis of every word._ ma*baad* kih ko'ii aa'indah ise faarsii kahe! chashm-e-bad duur *baad*!_


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## mundiya

Qureshpor said:


> I don't know the logic behind the statement "The government of Pakistan considers it to be Urdu".



 The "logic" was simply to determine if the language of the anthem is in fact Urdu.  Until I started this informative thread, I didn't know if it was within the norms of Urdu poetry.  I see now that it is.

 On a side note, Gopaldas Neeraj is a Hindi poet and the song reflects it.



> I hope I have answered all the questions. I'll have to say "xair-baad" to this post now!



Yes, thank you for the analysis QP saahib.


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## mundiya

eskandar said:


> Though I am not the sort of Persian speaker you're probably looking for as I've also studied Urdu, I can say that a Persian speaker (who didn't know any Urdu) would understand most of the song but would not consider it Persian. As QP SaaHib pointed out, the adjective-noun order is reversed in Persian. A Persian speaker might even be tempted to misread the unfamiliar syntax of پاک سرزمین شاد باد _paak sarzamiin shaad baad_ ("May the pure land be joyful") as the more familiar پاکیِ سرزمین شاد باد _paakii-e sarzamiin shaad baad_ ("May the purity of the land be joyful"). And of course, as indicated above, the line پاک سرزمین کا نظام _paak sarzamiin kaa nizaam_ would be incomprehensible to Persian speakers despite knowing 3/4 of the words.



Thank you for the feedback from a Persian language perspective, eskandar saahib.


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## marrish

To mundiya jii: I understand where you were coming from but it is a kind of a sensitive matter when governments meddle into language questions so I think QP SaaHib's remark was about this kind of thing. Language questions are best left with the literati and linguists and and this forum ;-) For your information there used to be a controversy about this anthem in Pakistan too but as seen from the sister thread on jana gaNRa, our peoples don't abstain from controversies


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## mundiya

I see that Persian also has the word "tuu" as indicated in this Persian dictionary: http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.7:1:3837.steingass



> When used as a vowel for the A. _wa_ (see following article), it takes the sound of _u_ (in poetry, according to the requisites of the metre, frequently _ū_), and it has the same pronunciation in certain monosyllables, as تو _tu (tū)_ "thou,"[...]


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## Qureshpor

mundiya said:


> I see that Persian also has the word "tuu" as indicated in this Persian dictionary: http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.7:1:3837.steingass


Yes it does as do a number of Indic languages. This is the reason why I did not mention it in my post. However, in Persian "tuu" is not pronounced as "tuu". To the best of my knowledge, in Iran it is "to" and in Afghanistan it is "tu". Based on this, I would say that the "tuu" in the Pakistani qaumii taraanah is the Indic "tuu" and not the Persian "tuu".


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## mundiya

^ If you notice, the excerpt I quoted from the dictionary stated that u can be lengthened to uu in poetry.  Hence, "tu" becomes "tuu" in Persian poetry (maybe not in regular speech).  It seems the use of "tuu" in qaumii taraanah can therefore be given a dual etymology: Indic and Persian.  Unless there is a grammatical or stylistic reason why that can't be the case.


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## Qureshpor

mundiya said:


> ^ If you notice, the excerpt I quoted from the dictionary stated that u can be lengthened to uu in poetry.  Hence, "tu" becomes "tuu" in Persian poetry (maybe not in regular speech).  It seems the use of "tuu" in qaumii taraanah can therefore be given a dual etymology: Indic and Persian.  Unless there is a grammatical or stylistic reason why that can't be the case.


Well, I personally do not think Hafeez Jalandhari had the Persian "tuu" in mind but we will never know because he is now deceased. What you say is not an impossibility. Either way, it has been demonstrated that the qaumii taraanah is in Urdu and not Persian.


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## marrish

tuu tuu maiN maiN kii baat ho ga'ii hae nah? jo chaahe kih baat ko us taraf khaiNche kar saktaa hae magar har iiraanii faarsii kahe gaa kih yih Ghalat hae, faarsii nahiiN hae. (This is an opinion of my Iranian friend in translation).


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## mundiya

marrish saahab, I already acknowledged in post 17 that the anthem is in Urdu.  The minor issue I was deliberating with QP saahab is whether the word "tuu" could also be considered (Classical) Persian.  To state it another way, does the anthem have two non-Persian words ("kaa" and "tuu") or just one ("kaa")?  You and your Iranian friend are welcome to express an opinion on this.


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## ye jofte jurab

As has been discussed, Qaumī Tarānā is not Persian in the same way that Jana Gana Mana is not Sanskrit. The vocabulary may borrow heavily from the prestige language, but the syntax is unmistakably distinct. The question of how many non-Persian words the anthem contains is not particularly important, because it could contain none and still not be Persian. That being said, because it features mostly noun phrases, most of the anthem could probably be valid Persian. In fact, I'd say you could call it Persian if you made a few minor changes:

سرزمین پاک شاد باد
کشور حسین شاد باد
تو نشان عزم عالی
ای ارض پاکستان
مرکز یقین شاد باد


نظام سرزمین پاک
...

On the topic of the word tu, I think it's unlikely that Hafeez Jalandhari make a distinction between the two etymologies. I suspect they have long been conflated. [xxx]

This is simply the way the word is rendered in Indo-Persian.


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## Qureshpor

یہ جُفت ِ جوراب صاحب، آداب و تسلیمات 

کسی نے بھی نہیں کہا کہ جن گڻ من سنسکرت زبان میں ہے۔ سب جانتے ہیں کہ وہ بنگالی زبان ہی میں ہے، اگرچہ اُس میں سنسکرت کا اثرحاوی ہے۔ 

 آپ کی بات درست ہے کہ اگر اِس ترانے میں ایک بھی غیرفارسی لفظ نہ ہو تب بھی اِس کا فارسی میں نہ ہونا ممکن ہے۔ آپ کا آخری جملہ اور اُس کے ساتھ دی گئی تشریح سے یہ ثابت ہوتا ہے کہ پاکستان کا قومی ترانہ اُردو ہی میں ہے اور اگر اِس کو فارسی ترانہ بنانا ہے تو اِس میں کچھ تبدیلیاں لانا ہوں گی۔

اِس محفل میں خوش آمدید


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## ye jofte jurab

قریشپور صاحب، گرمجوشی سے استقبال کے لئے بہت شکریہ۔ میں سمجھتا ہوں کہ اس فورم کا کوئی رکن اس بات پر یقین نہیں رکھتا کہ "جن گن من" سنسکرت زبان میں لکھا ہوا ہے۔ لیکن کئی لوگوں کے لئے یہ بات ظاہر نہیں ہے کہ قومی ترانہ اردو میں ہے یا فارسی۔ میرا ارادہ یہ تھا کہ میں اس غیر واضح معاملے کا موازنہ ایک واضح معاملے سے کروں گا تا کہ ظاہر ہو جائے۔

ہم سب جانتے ہیں کہ زبان صرف الفاظ کا مجموعہ نہیں بلکہ مواصلات کا مشترکہ نظام اور ثقافت کا اظہار۔​


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## marrish

یہ جفتِ جوراب صاحب، اس موضوع پر جو بھی بات ہونا چاہیے تھا وہ ساری کی ساری باتیں ہو چکی ہیں بھر بھی میں آپ کو داد دینا چاہوں گا کہ آپ نے بڑی اچھی مثال دی ہے۔ پاکستان کے قومی ترانے کو فارسی کہنا بھارت کے قومی ترانے کو سنسکرت کہنے کے مترادف ہے۔
مجھے آپ کی آخر میں دی گئی رائے سے پورا اتفاق ہے۔ کاش کہ سب لوگ اس حقیقت سے واقف ہوں!۔​


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