# утрами; по утра́м



## eni8ma

Is there any difference between these expressions?
- он бе́гает утрами
 - он бе́гает по утра́м

Does one suggest a general practice (i.e. he generally/mostly jogs in the mornings, but not always), whereas the other has a sense of 'every ...'?

If Peter likes to jog "in the mornings", but he doesn't jog every single day, and John likes to jog "in the mornings" every day (unless he is ill, etc), would these sentences distinguish that? Or are both sentences saying more or less the same thing about each man?

- Питер бе́гает утрами
 - Джон бе́гает по утра́м


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## morzh

eni8ma said:


> Is there any difference between these expressions?
> - он бе́гает утрами
> - он бе́гает по утра́м
> 
> Does one suggest a general practice (i.e. he generally/mostly jogs in the mornings, but not always), whereas the other has a sense of 'every ...'?
> 
> If Peter likes to jog "in the mornings", but he doesn't jog every single day, and John likes to jog "in the mornings" every day (unless he is ill, etc), would these sentences distinguish that? Or are both sentences saying more or less the same thing about each man?
> 
> - Питер бе́гает утрами
> - Джон бе́гает по утра́м



No they are exactly the same. No difference whatsoever. Matter of style.

BTW you can look it up in a dict. 

Here's Efremova for you:

*Ударение:* вечера́ми
_нареч._


То же, что: по вечерам.


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## ahvalj

There is a difference: for the 36 years of my life I have never seen or heard «утрами».


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## eni8ma

ahvalj said:


> There is a difference: for the 36 years of my life I have never seen or heard «утрами».


In another thread, I was told to use a similar construction:


Artemiy said:


> Мы упражняемся (репетируем) вечерами по вторникам.
> Мы упражняемся (репетируем) вечерами каждый вторник.


Apparently, if I want to say "Peter runs on Saturday mornings", it would be:
- Питер бе́гает утрами по субботам.


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## ahvalj

eni8ma said:


> In another thread, I was told to use a similar construction:
> 
> Apparently, if I want to say "Peter runs on Saturday mornings", it would be:
> - Питер бе́гает утрами по субботам.



«Вечерами» and «ночами» are perfectly usable, «днями» is rare and limited though still possible in some contexts («целыми днями» is widespread), but «утрами» in this sense appears to survive only in foreign manuals.

Your references with «Мы упражняемся...» are correct, no complains.
Your example with Peter sounds artificial, like one from a foreign manual. I would expect to hear something like «Питер бегает в субботу по утрам».

Actually, compare: 
http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q="в+субботу+по+утрам"&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
with
http://www.google.com/search?num=20...=en&q="утрами+по+субботам"&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=


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## ahvalj

There is a significant difference between the biological and language evolution: the former is (more or less) adaptive, since it is a matter of life and death, while the latter is essentially similar to the evolution of fashions — things simply change over time, without any guarantee that they get replaced with something equivalent or better. That's how things are...

E. g., the Old Russian 1000 years ago had 4 past tenses (Imperfect, Aorist, Perfect and Plusquamperfect), which could in principle be used in both aspects. Now we have 1 tense (the former Perfect) in each aspect. Bulgarian and Macedonian have preserved all of them and developed several more. Why is it so? Nobody knows...


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## Maroseika

There is only one problem with утрами: it is obsolete and bookish and therefore inapplicable in the oral speech unless one tends to look obsolete or bookish.


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## eni8ma

да
- Питер бегает по утрам/вечерам/ночам/дням
  - Питер бегает вечерами/ночами
   - Питер бегает вечерами  по субботам
- Питер бегает в субботу по утрам
- Питер бегает по субботам

никогда
 - Питер бегает утрами/днями
- Питер бегает утрами по субботам

правильно?


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## ahvalj

eni8ma said:


> да
> - Питер бегает по утрам/вечерам/ночам/дням
> - Питер бегает вечерами/ночами
> - Питер бегает вечерами  по субботам
> - Питер бегает в субботу по утрам
> - Питер бегает по субботам
> 
> никогда
> - Питер бегает утрами/днями
> - Питер бегает утрами по субботам
> 
> правильно?



«По дням» does not exist in this sense: «днём» is used instead (also «утром/вечером/ночью» can be used, since «бегает» already conveys the iterative meaning).


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## ahvalj

Also, I have thought that «ночами» is somewhat limited in use, and for a foreigner it would be safer to say «по ночам». «Вечерами», too, sounds more poetic, but in principle it can be used interchangeably with the more neutral «по вечерам».


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## eni8ma

ahvalj said:


> Also, I have thought that «ночами» is somewhat limited in use, and for a foreigner it would be safer to say «по ночам». «Вечерами», too, sounds more poetic, but in principle it can be used interchangeably with the more neutral «по вечерам».


So how would you say "Peter runs on Saturday mornings/evenings"?


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## ahvalj

eni8ma said:


> So how would you say "Peter runs on Saturday mornings/evenings"?



«Питер бегает утром/вечером по субботам»


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## Maroseika

Verb + днями is used only with the word целыми: 

Бегает целыми днями = бегает целый день (all day round), and of course бегает is used here figuratively (not jogging but on business).

Днями itself means 'soon' (on these days).


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## ahvalj

An aside note about the foreign literature (probably for another topic): in most manuals and even scientific books I have seen, the Russian «щ» is described as «шч», with the variant «шьшь» either not mentioned at all or regarded as secondary. In contrast, I have never heard an ethnic Russian (not Ukrainian or Belorussian) pronouncing «шч» — it exists only in very ancient records from the beginning of the 20th century, and even there it seems to be stylistically colored (romances or theater). I am sure the same is applicable to any other language.


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## ahvalj

Maroseika said:


> Днями itself means 'soon' (on these days).



Never heard.


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## Maroseika

ahvalj said:


> Never heard.


Kidding?


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## ahvalj

Maroseika said:


> Kidding?



Absolutely not. Never heard indeed. A Moscow slang?


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## eni8ma

ahvalj said:


> «По дням» does not exist in this sense: «днём» is used instead (also «утром/вечером/ночью» can be used, since «бегает» already conveys the iterative meaning).


- Питер бегает  утром (as a regular activity?)
- Peter runs in the morning

- Питер едет в Москву  утром
- Peter is going to Moscow in the morning


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## ahvalj

eni8ma said:


> - Питер бегает  утром (as a regular activity?)
> - Peter runs in the morning



Yes, since «бегает» is an iterative verb.



eni8ma said:


> - Питер едет в Москву  утром
> - Peter is going to Moscow in the morning



Yes, since «едет» means here a single action. 

«Питер ездит в Москву по утрам» for a regular activity.


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## Maroseika

eni8ma said:


> - Питер бегает  утром (as a regular activity?)
> - Peter runs in the morning
> Almost  but not very natural. Better по утрам.
> 
> - Питер едет в Москву  утром
> - Peter is going to Moscow in the morning


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## Maroseika

ahvalj said:


> Absolutely not. Never heard indeed. A Moscow slang?



And never read?


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## ahvalj

Maroseika said:


> ...



Agree, but «бегает утром» is not incorrect, simply negligent (right?), though quite normal in a colloquial speech.


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## ahvalj

Maroseika said:


> And never read?



Well, may be somewhere in the 19th century literature, but I cannot ever recall an example. For me it is entirely a thing from a foreign manual.


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## eni8ma

Maroseika said:


> Verb + днями is used only with the word целыми:
> 
> Бегает целыми днями = бегает целый день (all day round), and of course бегает is used here figuratively (not jogging but on business).
> 
> Днями itself means 'soon' (on these days).


бегает целый день = running around all day? (as you say, figurative)

For днями, I found:
- Дождь, дождь, дождь целыми днями напролет
- Rain, rain, rain for days on end


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## ahvalj

eni8ma said:


> бегает целый день = running around all day? (as you say, figurative)
> 
> For днями, I found:
> - Дождь, дождь, дождь целыми днями напролет
> - Rain, rain, rain for days on end



As I had written, «целыми днями» does exist, unlike «днями» itself.
«Бегает целый день» and «бегает целыми днями» in principle mean the same.


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## eni8ma

ahvalj said:


> As I had written, «целыми днями» does exist, unlike «днями» itself.
> «Бегает целый день» and «бегает целыми днями» in principle mean the same.


 I did read that - I was simply responding to Маросейка's comment.

So ... a revised list:
да
- Питер бегает по утрам/вечерам/ночам
- Питер бегает по субботам
- Питер бегает утром/вечером/ночью по субботам (> 54,000 results)

less common
- Питер бегает в субботу по утрам (> 19,000 results)

никогда (or rare)
- Питер бегает утрами/днями/вечерами/ночами
- Питер бегает в субботу по вечерам/ночам


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## ahvalj

eni8ma said:


> I did read that - I was simply responding to Маросейка's comment.
> 
> So ... a revised list:
> да
> - Питер бегает по утрам/вечерам/ночам
> - Питер бегает по субботам
> - Питер бегает утром/вечером/ночью по субботам (> 54,000 results)
> 
> less common
> - Питер бегает в субботу по утрам (> 19,000 results)
> 
> никогда (or rare)
> - Питер бегает утрами/днями/вечерами/ночами
> - Питер бегает в субботу по вечерам/ночам



Correct ,-)


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## eni8ma

Спасибо


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## Maroseika

eni8ma said:


> less common
> - Питер бегает в субботу по утрам (> 19,000 results)


This looks weird (no matter its Google score), because в субботу refers to some exact Saturday, while по утрам presums regularity. Besides, Saturday includes only one morning, and a morning doesn't contain Satruday. We can do something утром по субботам, but not в субботу по утрам.

Correct phrase would be: По субботам Петя бегает утром (а по будням - вечером).



> никогда (or rare)
> - Питер бегает в субботу по вечерам/ночам


Right. The same like в субботу по утрам as above.


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## eni8ma

Maroseika said:


> This looks weird (no matter its Google score), because в субботу refers to some exact Saturday, while по утрам presumes regularity. Besides, Saturday includes only one morning, and a morning doesn't contain Saturday. We can do something утром по субботам, but not в субботу по утрам.
> 
> Correct phrase would be: По субботам Петя бегает утром (а по будням - вечером).


That structure was included based on someone else's comment.





ahvalj said:


> I would expect to hear something like «Питер бегает в субботу по утрам».


I am happy to use only those phrases from the да section


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## morzh

Maroseika said:


> Kidding?



He's gotta be.....but then he is from S.-P.


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## ahvalj

Maroseika said:


> This looks weird (no matter its Google score), because в субботу refers to some exact Saturday, while по утрам presums regularity. Besides, Saturday includes only one morning, and a morning doesn't contain Satruday. We can do something утром по субботам, but not в субботу по утрам.
> 
> Correct phrase would be: По субботам Петя бегает утром (а по будням - вечером).



I agree that this construction is not especially elegant. The problem is, it is the only way to convey the required meaning in the modern language. When the perfectly appropriate and very ancient (Balto-Slavic if not earlier) «днями» went out of fashion a few centuries ago, the language had to find other ways to express the same, and the only thing available was «в субботу по утрам». A pity, but a sad reality. I think you understand yourself that your suggestion «по субботам Петя бегает утром» is stylistically marked.


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## Maroseika

I don't understand what's a problem in the modern Russian with a concept of doing something regularly in the daytime and how can it be substituted with doing something in the mornings. По понедельникам - вечером, по субботам - утром, а по средам вообще ничего, ибо лень.
Maybe по субботам утром is stylistically marked, but в субботу по утрам is a nonsense, because I know for sure each Saturday one and only one morning happens.


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## Garbuz

В субботу по утрам is absolutely ungrammatical, and so are "в субботу по ночам / вечерам / дням". 

- Что вы обычно делаете по вечерам?
- Смотрю телевизор.

- Что вы обычно делает в субботу вечером?
- Смотрю телевизор.


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## ahvalj

Maroseika said:


> I don't understand what's a problem in the modern Russian with a concept of doing something regularly in the daytime and how can it be substituted with doing something in the mornings. По понедельникам - вечером, по субботам - утром, а по средам вообще ничего, ибо лень.
> Maybe по субботам утром is stylistically marked, but в субботу по утрам is a nonsense, because I know for sure each Saturday one and only one morning happens.



«По субботам утром» is OK, but is not as universal as it was requested. "Питер бегает по субботам утром» is less frequent than «Питер бегает в субботу по утрам», and the ideal «Питер бегает по субботам по утрам» doesn't exist at all. Just facts of language. I do not say it is a good construction, but it is what the current use prefers.

We may find many oddities if we start analyzing various elements of the vocabulary. Say, «достаточно/довольно новый» — достаточно/довольно для кого? «Является признаком» — перед кем является? Etc. 

It is just fashion, as I had written. I, e. g., find the formal male fashions of the last 150 years (suits, neckties, shirts, shoes) incredibly ugly and so far have avoided wearing any of these things, but they are facts of life. We are at the stage when their use cannot be stopped. Likewise the language: it builds its elements from everything available, often with no rational explanation. I find the loss of declination in neuter toponyms («я живу в Бирюлёво») very contradictory to the grammatical structure of the language, but this is how 99% of people will say. The similar situation with personal foreign names on -а/я (Берия, Мацуока, Золя) is as regrettable though fortunately still not so hopeless. The school can stop such things when they are developing, but it's much harder to roll them back when they are here. A good writer or another person who influences the language may suggest something that will be accepted, otherwise we can only complain and observe.


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## Maroseika

ahvalj said:


> «По субботам утром» is OK, but is not as universal as it was requested.


I don't know to what extent it is universal, but it means exactly that the time of someoneжы jogging on Saturdays is morning time. I cannot notice any ambiguity.


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## Rosett

Петя бегает в субботу утром.


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## eni8ma

Rosett said:


> Петя бегает в субботу утром.


Doesn't that mean just that one day?
- Peter is jogging on Saturday morning.

This thread is about habitual behaviour:
Peter jogs in the mornings.
Peter jogs on Saturday mornings.


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## Maroseika

eni8ma said:


> Doesn't that mean just that one day?
> - Peter is jogging on Saturday morning.


Exactly so.


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## morzh

Rosett said:


> Петя бегает в субботу утром.



This means on-time action.
"Пальцем в небо", в общем.


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## Garbuz

I wonder if the word "Pygmalion" rings a bell. I think those who insist that 'в субботу по утрам" is grammatical would make perfect company to Liza Doolittle. Somebody says so. So what? Somebody may say whatever they like. We have a freedom of speech. However, it doesn't mean that what they say is in line with Russian grammar.


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## ahvalj

Are we discussing here the grammatically preferred way to convey the meaning or what the real people use in their real lives? Both «по субботам утром» and «в субботу по утрам» are widespread, as Google can prove:
http://www.google.ru/search?client=...8&oe=UTF-8&redir_esc=&ei=tpEETpw3xfOyBq6xraoM
http://www.google.ru/search?client=...q=&pbx=1&fp=2b9c01dd59556974&biw=1036&bih=706
The meaning of both phrases is exactly the same.


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## ahvalj

I'd like to repeat that to me the only grammatically and logically correct variant would be «по субботам по утрам», which is not in use. Both other variants are the palliatives the language uses to fill the gap. «Я его слепила из того, что было» ©


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## morzh

По утрам, каждую субботу - I would say this is correct, and Google tend to give a decent usage.

I do not understand the concept "If it is used widely and Google confirms it  - it is a good usage". Vast majority of people are not very literate, unfortunately. That does not mean that we should recommend using ungrammatical phrases they use.


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## eni8ma

«по субботам утром»
«в субботу по утрам»

In English, we might say:
- on Saturdays, in the morning (the important thing is Saturdays)
- in the morning, on Saturdays (the important thing is the morning)
- on Saturday mornings (no particular emphasis)

Each has a slightly different emphasis - is this what is happening with the Russian phrases?


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## ahvalj

eni8ma said:


> «по субботам утром»
> «в субботу по утрам»
> 
> In English, we might say:
> - on Saturdays, in the morning (the important thing is Saturdays)
> - in the morning, on Saturdays (the important thing is the morning)
> - on Saturday mornings (no particular emphasis)
> 
> Each has a slightly different emphasis - is this what is happening with the Russian phrases?



I'd say there is no general rule about which word position in the Russian equivalent emphasizes which word; often the word order will be irrelevant, especially in speech. The most secure way to differentiate the first two English phrases in Russian would be the intonation. And I have troubles translating the third variant — «по субботним утрам» is totally artificial.


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## eni8ma

ahvalj said:


> I'd say there is no general rule about which word position in the Russian equivalent emphasizes which word; often the word order will be irrelevant, especially in speech. The most secure way to differentiate the first two English phrases in Russian would be the intonation. And I have troubles translating the third variant — «по субботним утрам» is totally artificial.


Thanks - I wasn't asking for a translation, just whether that made any difference in the choice of phrase in Russian


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## Garbuz

eni8ma said:


> «по субботам утром»
> «в субботу по утрам»
> 
> In English, we might say:
> - on Saturdays, in the morning (the important thing is Saturdays)
> - in the morning, on Saturdays (the important thing is the morning)
> - on Saturday mornings (no particular emphasis)
> 
> Each has a slightly different emphasis - is this what is happening with the Russian phrases?



No, it is not. What's happening to the Russian language is that some people who can't speak Russian properly, instead of working to improve their command of the language, are trying to convince others that grammar as such does not exist. What they are actually saying is it's enough to be a native to speak the language correctly. In that case why should we spell корова with 'o'? A lot of people are quite comfortable with 'a' (karova).


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## ahvalj

Garbuz said:


> What's happening to the Russian language is that some people who can't speak Russian properly, instead of working to improve their command of the language, are trying to convince others that grammar as such does not exist. What they are actually saying is it's enough to be a native to speak the language correctly. In that case why should we spell корова with 'o'? A lot of people are quite comfortable with 'a' (karova).



«Корова» is an etymological writing; the modern pronunciation of this word is derived from the form reflected in the orthography. Both combinations of «суббота» and «утро» discussed here are recent inventions aimed to fill the gap that originated a few centuries ago, and both are ungrammatical. I am more pedantic than 99% of the Russian speakers, but I see no solution here: we have to chose between two illogical constructions.


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## Garbuz

ahvalj said:


> «Корова» is an etymological writing; the modern pronunciation of this word is derived from the form reflected in the orthography. Both combinations of «суббота» and «утро» discussed here are recent inventions aimed to fill the gap that originated a few centuries ago, and both are ungrammatical. I am more pedantic than 99% of the Russian speakers, but I see no solution here: we have to chose between two illogical constructions.


 
Frankly speaking, I don't see any gap, nor is it a question of pedantism, nor do we have to choose between the two ungrammatical variants. The idea of a recurrent action can be expressed through an adverb of frequency:

- Что вы *обычно* делаете в субботу утром?
- В субботу утром я *обычно* гуляю с собакой.


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## morzh

ahvalj said:


> we have to chose between two illogical constructions.



Speak for yourself. There are perfectly fine constructs that personally I choose from.


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## ahvalj

Garbuz said:


> Frankly speaking, I don't see any gap, nor is it a question of pedantism, nor do we have to choose between the two ungrammatical variants. The idea of a recurrent action can be expressed through an adverb of frequency:
> 
> - Что вы *обычно* делаете в субботу утром?
> - В субботу утром я *обычно* гуляю с собакой.



«Вечерами по субботам я гуляю с собакой». «Питер бегает вечерами по субботам». This is the flawless construction. Since «утрами» has disappeared (see the beginnings of this thread), the language had to replace it with something, and found only the clumsy ways we are debating here. We are not discussing how to make the structure crystally clear by adding adverbs: Enigma's question was to translate an English phrase according to a pattern. What we were trying to do.


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## ahvalj

morzh said:


> Speak for yourself. There are perfectly fine constructs that personally I choose from.



Many languages have two Pl. 1 forms: the so called inclusive (me/we with you) and the exclusive (me/we without you). Let's regard my "we have" as an example of the exclusive Pl. 1.


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## Rosett

Maroseika said:


> Exactly so.


Означает что он может бегать в любую субботу утром.


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## Rosett

morzh said:


> This means on-time action.
> "Пальцем в небо", в общем.


On-time  
Петя бежит в субботу утром.


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## morzh

rosett said:


> on-time
> Петя бежит в субботу утром.



И бегает, и бежит - если в субботу утром, то один раз.
Разница только между глаголами "бегать" и "бежать"
Бегать можно на стадионе по кругу, т.ле. заниматься бегом; бежать можно куда-то.

Он бежит в субботу утром - он собирается на пробежку, из, скажем, пункта А в пункт Б. Бежит на пляж из дому. Один раз.
Он бегает в субботу утром - он, к примеру, пойдет на стадион, в субботу утром, и будет там круги нарезать. Один раз. Может, он и каждую субботу бегает, но из этого предложения это не следует.


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## Garbuz

ahvalj said:


> «Вечерами по субботам я гуляю с собакой». «Питер бегает вечерами по субботам». This is the flawless construction. Since «утрами» has disappeared (see the beginnings of this thread), the language had to replace it with something, and found only the clumsy ways we are debating here. We are not discussing how to make the structure crystally clear by adding adverbs: Enigma's question was to translate an English phrase according to a pattern. What we were trying to do.


 

As flawless as 
- Вода в озере чистая?
- Воды (???) озера вполне пригодны для купания.

Вечерами по субботам is OK but the environment has to be adequate in terms of style. " Я бегаю вечерами по субботам" does sound odd.


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## Rosett

morzh said:


> И бегает, и бежит - если в субботу утром, то один раз.
> Разница только между глаголами "бегать" и "бежать"
> Бегать можно на стадионе по кругу, т.ле. заниматься бегом; бежать можно куда-то.
> 
> Он бежит в субботу утром - он собирается на пробежку, из, скажем, пункта А в пункт Б. Бежит на пляж из дому. Один раз.
> Он бегает в субботу утром - он, к примеру, пойдет на стадион, в субботу утром, и будет там круги нарезать. Один раз. Может, он и каждую субботу бегает, но из этого предложения это не следует.


Если бежит, то тоже может круги нарезать.
Например, он бежит на соревнованиях в субботу утром.
Если он бегает на соревнованиях в субботу утром, то значит, что соревнования проводятся по субботам периодически и он бегает в эти дни по утрам.


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## morzh

rosett said:


> Если бежит, то тоже может круги нарезать.
> Например, он бежит на соревнованиях в субботу утром.
> Если он бегает на соревнованиях в субботу утром, то значит, что соревнования проводятся по субботам периодически и он бегает в эти дни по утрам.




Да, если он бежит на соревнованиях - то он бежит к цели. К, скажем, финишу.
Но речь даже не о том, чем "бежит" отличается от "бегает". 

А о том, что в субботу утром - это значит, в эту субботу. Один раз. Бегает или бежит. И это нам НИЧЕГО не говорит о следующей субботе, и все последующих и предыдущих субботах.


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## eni8ma

And you Russians expect us foreigners to get the verbs and time-expressions right, when you debate it so much yourselves? 

I have settled on "по субботам утром" to say "on Saturday mornings", realising that some Russians might still look at me funny, but at least I'll know why, and can fall back to "утрам в субботу" (or утром по субботам) without feeling greatly puzzled.

Google results 
"по субботам утром" - 142,000
 "утрам в субботу" - 106,000
"утром по субботам" - 54,500
"в субботу утрам" - 62 (sic)

From what I have so far learned about iterative and progressive verbs, I'll stick with бе́гать for running in more than one direction, or more than once, and бежа́ть for running (once, in one direction only, but not there yet, or failed to finish ). Come to think of it, I might just stick with бе́гать, as I seldom talk about people who are half-way through a single foot race 

Please don't throw up your hands over the verbs - I wanted the time expressions - thought it'd be a simple question


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## morzh

eni8ma said:


> And you Russians expect us foreigners to get the verbs and time-expressions right, when you debate it so much yourselves?
> 
> I have settled on "по субботам утром" to say "on Saturday mornings", realising that some Russians might still look at me funny, but at least I'll know why, and can fall back to "утрам в субботу" (or утром по субботам) without feeling greatly puzzled.
> 
> Google results
> "по субботам утром" - 142,000
> "*ПО* утрам в субботу" - 106,000
> "утром по субботам" - 54,500
> "в субботу *ПО *утрам" - 62 (sic)
> 
> From what I have so far learned about iterative and progressive verbs, I'll stick with бе́гать for running in more than one direction, or more than once, and бежа́ть for running (once, in one direction only, but not there yet, or failed to finish ). Come to think of it, I might just stick with бе́гать, as I seldom talk about people who are half-way through a single foot race
> 
> Please don't throw up your hands over the verbs - I wanted the time expressions - thought it'd be a simple question




I would not use the "по субботам утром" if only not to learn bad language.

Imagine someone insisting on usage of "I don't know nothing" or other double-negatives, only because large part of population (southerners and blacks) tend to use it. Would you still advise foreigners to use it?
To know it - one thing. To use - another.


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## eni8ma

morzh said:


> I would not use the "по субботам утром" if only not to learn bad language.
> Imagine someone insisting on usage of "I don't know nothing" or other double-negatives, only because large part of population (southerners and blacks) tend to use it. Would you still advise foreigners to use it?
> To know it - one thing. To use - another.


I absolutely take your point, морж, as I am fighting the same battles for English - it makes me cringe, the number of awful constructions in the English of movies and TV, that people then use as "proof" of the correct way to speak. Even on these forums, there are people who do not know their own language very well, and yet debate till they are black and blue with someone who does know how to speak well. It then becomes difficult for a learner to tell what is really correct.

"по субботам утром" - 142,000
  "по утрам в субботу" - 106,000
 "утром по субботам" - 54,500
 "в субботу по утрам" - 48,000

So ... 
морж doesn't like "по субботам утром", but Маросейка is ok with it, as is ahvalj. 
Маросейка is also ok with "утром по субботам"





Maroseika said:


> We can do something утром по субботам, but not  в субботу по утрам.
> Correct phrase would be: По субботам Петя бегает утром.





ahvalj said:


> Are we discussing here the grammatically  preferred way to convey the meaning or what the real people use in their  real lives? Both «по субботам утром» and «в субботу по утрам» are  widespread


Маросейка doesn't like "в субботу по утрам", and nor does Garbuz, but ahvalj does.





Garbuz said:


> В субботу по утрам is absolutely ungrammatical





ahvalj said:


> I would expect to hear something like «Питер бегает в субботу по утрам».


"по утрам в субботу" has not been debated, but since word order is not usually important in Russian, I am guessing the same comments apply as for "в субботу по утрам"

In the absence of any comment in a grammar book, I have two choices - go with those who seem to give consistently good responses, or let google tell me.


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## morzh

Notice that *ahvalj* seems to be OK with it being a bad usage because many use it.

Anyway, if the meaning (I've already lost track of it) is "Every Saturday morning", then "каждую субботу по утрам" would be OK. Or even "Каждую субботу утром".
"Каждую" changes "one Saturday" from having "many mornings" or "many Saturdays having one morning " into "Every morning of every Saturday" (Every Saturday morning).


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## eni8ma

morzh said:


> Anyway, if the meaning (I've already lost track of it) is "Every Saturday morning", then "каждую субботу по утрам" would be OK. Or even "Каждую субботу утром".


"каждую субботу утром" seems good.

Originally it was "on Saturday mornings" which does not require _every_ Saturday, but denotes a general practice. 
 I go dancing "on Saturday nights", but I don't dance "every Saturday night".  
I go to choir "on Tuesday evenings", but not "every Tuesday evening"  because there is no choir during school holidays. (I think US says  vacation)

"every Saturday morning" suggests more regularity than "on Saturday mornings".

so ... is there a "good" way to say "on Saturday mornings" in Russian? 
Two people have said a definite нет for "в субботу по утрам".
Маросейка is ok with "по субботам ... утром" or "утром по субботам".

If we split the phrase, does that make it more OK? or will punctuation help, say a comma or a dash?
- по субботам я бегаю утром (sounds like "on Saturdays I run in the morning, but on other days ...)
- я бегаю по субботам - утром
 - я бегаю по субботам, утром
- я бегаю по утрам - в субботу

Or shall I just say:
- I do X in the mornings, usually on a <day name>
- I do Y on Tuesdays, in the evening

That second one sounds a lot like "по вторникам, вечером".


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## morzh

eni8ma said:


> "каждую субботу утром" seems good.
> 
> Originally it was "on Saturday mornings" which does not require _every_ Saturday, but denotes a general practice.
> I go dancing "on Saturday nights", but I don't dance "every Saturday night".
> I go to choir "on Tuesday evenings", but not "every Tuesday evening"  because there is no choir during school holidays. (I think US says  vacation)
> 
> "every Saturday morning" suggests more regularity than "on Saturday mornings".
> 
> so ... is there a "good" way to say "on Saturday mornings" in Russian?
> Two people have said a definite нет for "в субботу по утрам".
> Маросейка is ok with "по субботам ... утром" or "утром по субботам".
> 
> If we split the phrase, does that make it more OK? or will punctuation help, say a comma or a dash?
> - по субботам я бегаю утром (sounds like "on Saturdays I run in the morning, but on other days ...)
> - я бегаю по субботам - утром
> - я бегаю по субботам, утром
> - я бегаю по утрам - в субботу
> 
> Or shall I just say:
> - I do X in the mornings, usually on a <day name>
> - I do Y on Tuesdays, in the evening
> 
> That second one sounds a lot like "по вторникам, вечером".



Maybe "по субботам, утром" - if it is separated. I don't know. Something in me opposes "по субботам утром".
But "По утрам в субботу" is totally unacceptable to me.


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## Garbuz

eni8ma said:


> "каждую субботу утром" seems good.
> 
> Originally it was "on Saturday mornings" which does not require _every_ Saturday, but denotes a general practice.
> I go dancing "on Saturday nights", but I don't dance "every Saturday night".
> I go to choir "on Tuesday evenings", but not "every Tuesday evening"  because there is no choir during school holidays. (I think US says  vacation)
> 
> "every Saturday morning" suggests more regularity than "on Saturday mornings".
> 
> so ... is there a "good" way to say "on Saturday mornings" in Russian?
> .



Я хожу на танцы/занимаюсь танцами утром по субботам. (т.е. делаю это по расписанию).

В субботу утром я часто/обычно/время от времени хожу на танцы/занимаюсь танцами. (делаю это не всегда)

"Я бегаю с субботу по утрам" sounds to me like the speaker wanted to say "... по полям" but then used the wrong word.


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## eni8ma

Garbuz said:


> Я хожу на танцы/занимаюсь танцами утром по субботам. (т.е. делаю это по расписанию).
> 
> В субботу утром я часто/обычно/время от времени хожу на танцы/занимаюсь танцами. (делаю это не всегда)


Well, that's another vote for утром по субботам (= по субботам утром?) and a grudging acceptance from морж .

Think I'll go with that for now


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## Rosett

morzh said:


> А о том, что в субботу утром - это значит, в эту субботу. Один раз. Бегает или бежит. И это нам НИЧЕГО не говорит о следующей субботе, и все последующих и предыдущих субботах.


Говорит характер действия - подразумевает повторяемость, но не указывает на строгую периодичность.

Например, в пятницу вечером он ходит в синагогу, а в субботу утром нарезает круги на стадионе.


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## ahvalj

Maroseika said:


> Kidding?


A minute ago heard this from Ruslan Grinberg in his interview («днями решается, часами»). For the first time in my life.


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## Maroseika

ahvalj said:


> A minute ago heard this from Ruslan Grinberg in his interview («днями решается, часами»). For the first time in my life.


The first was mine. Don't dispute my priority.


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## ahvalj

Maroseika said:


> The first was mine. Don't dispute my priority.



Such a strange lingo you have there in Moscow...


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