# Rus (Russian) as red (color)



## Ljudevit

I wonder if anybody has ever tried to connect (or disprove) the origins of the word *Rus* to word meaning *red *(Червон)? I am native speaker of Croatian, and we would say "*rusa kosa*" for "*red hair*". It seems to me that this could connect on so many levels, because of, Italian (latin group) *rosso*, Croatian *ruž*ičast, *ruža*, h*rđ*av, Slovenian *rd*eči...and English *rust*ed, *r*e*d and **rose*. So *Rus* could simply be *redheaded* men, and/or coming from the "*red*" (south) side of the world. This might even work with the Scandinavian origin theory.


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## ahvalj

Every possible and impossible etymology was discussed a zillion times. The "Primary chronicle" explicitly calls the original Rus people Varangians invited from Sweden to the northern lands. Finnic languages use the word _rootse_- for Swedes. The Byzantinians called "Ros" the Northmen and the Varangians. In a treaty between Rus and Byzance, the Rus negotiators are listed separately from the Slavic ones and bear Scandinavian names. Finally, all the ethnic names on -_ь_ in Old East Slavic times are used for northern non-Slavic groups: _сумь, емь, весь, водь, кърсь _etc. So, to discuss the Slavic etymology of this name is the same as to discuss the Latin etymology for France.


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## Ljudevit

I'm trying to discuss Indo-European etymology of the word.


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## ahvalj

Just as an illustration, the Rus–Byzantine treaty of 911 was signed by the following people from the Rus side:
_Мы от рода русскаго. карлы. инегелдъ фарлофъ. веремудъ. рулавъ. гоуды | роуалдъ. карнъ. фрелавъ. руалъ. актеву. труанъ. ли|доул фостъ. стемид

_Update. The English Wikipedia deciphers these names as: _Karl, Ingjald, Farulf, Vermund, Hrollaf, Gunnar, Harold, Kami, Frithleif, Hroarr, Angantyr, Throand, Leithulf, Fast, and Steinvith.__

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Русско-византийская_война_907_года
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rus'–Byzantine_Treaty_(911)_


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## ahvalj

Ljudevit said:


> I'm trying to discuss Indo-European etymology of the word.


If this word is Germanic, the Italian and Slavic etymologies seem irrelevant. The original form of this root was *_rōs_- or *_rō+Consonant+s_-. The vowel _ō_ is suggested by the Greek and Finnic evidence. Slavic in the end of the 1st millennium didn't possess this vowel, so it was substituted by the closest sounding vowel, _u_ — compare also *_soomi_>_сумь_ or _Salo:n_->_Солунь_ "Thessaloniki". If this word was borrowed in the 7–8th centuries, when Slavic experienced this shift, we may face not the substitution but an in-Slavic change, together with the other instances of the Slavic _ō_. The Finnic -_ts_- suggests that some consonant, probably dental, was present there. The IE root *_H₁reu̯dʰ_- "red" in the coeval Norse had the forms _rauð_- (_rauðr, rauði _etc., later _au_>_ö_ in Swedish) and _ruð_- _(ruð, ryðr, roða, ryðja, roði_ etc.), none of which could have produced the Finnic _roots_-.


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## Ljudevit

Thanks for taking time to explain this to me.
So, am I correct to conclude that the word RUS is related to ROW (the boat) or ROVE (roam), and not to RED, because that's the only way to explain the Finnic word for Rus?
I just couldn't find anywhere why exactly RED would be considered unlikely source for RUS. I thought that same rules of sound (language) change that connected red to rust, could be applied here. I'm failing to see why would the Italian etymology be irrelevant if the word is Germanic. Is the transition RED - ROT- ROSSO (English, German, Italian) unlikely or impossible, or we are talking about some vowel that didn't exist?


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## ahvalj

Something is happening with the formatting here: italic font, lines hidden…

The etymology relating this word to the modern Roslagen area in Sweden is unproblematic from the linguistic and historical viewpoints:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roslagen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rus_(name)
Whether this word can be etymologized within Norse is another question. The default view is that _"[t]he name comes from Roslagen word “rodslag” which in coastal Uppland is an old word for a rowing crew of warrior oarsmen" _(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roslagen) and hence eventually originates from the Germanic verb *_rōanan_ "to row" (Norse _róa_). This may be a later folk etymology, however.

The words are borrowed according to some sound laws, especially if a word is heard for decades or centuries from its authoritative native users (which constituted the upper class in the Rus society). The Norse words for "red" or "redhead" cited in #5 contain either a diphthong _au_ or a short vowel _u/o/y,_ neither of which was able to become _oo_ in Finnic. In Byzantine Greek, the sound of _ω_ was already identical to that of _ο_, but the fact that Greeks used _ω_ for the vowel in _Ρως_ (http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Κράτος_των_Ρως) also suggests that they wanted to emphasize a special character of this _o_ (most probably length). Taken alone, the Norse _au_ was able to result in the historical Slavic _u_ only if borrowed around the 5th century and then experiencing the usual Slavic development _au_>_ō_>_u_ (cp. IE *_tau̯ros_>_turъ_ or Gothic _kaupon_>_kupiti_).


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## Ljudevit

Thank you!


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## ahvalj

In the context of this discussion, I think it would be useful to have the excerpt from the "Primary chronicle" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_Chronicle) cited. So (the linguistically normalized text can be seen here: http://hudce7.harvard.edu/~ostrowski/pvl/alpha.pdf ; the rough transcription can be found here: http://izbornyk.org.ua/pvllavr/pvllavr01.htm):

_"Въ лѣто 6367 [859]. Имаху дань *варязи изъ замория* на чюди и на словѣньхъ, на мери и на вьсѣхъ кривичихъ. А козаре имаху на полянѣхъ, и на сѣверѣхъ, и на вятичихъ, имаху по бѣлѣ и вѣверици отъ дыма.
__Въ лѣто 6368 [860]._
_Въ лѣто 6369 [861]._
_Въ лѣто 6370 [862]. Изгънаша варягы за море, и не даша имъ дани, и почаша сами въ собѣ володѣти, и не бѣ въ нихъ правьды, и въста родъ на родъ, и быша въ нихъ усобицѣ, и воевати почаша сами на ся. И рѣша сами въ себѣ: «Поищемъ собѣ кънязя, иже бы володѣлъ нами и судилъ по праву». *И идоша за море къ варягомъ, къ руси. Сице бо ся зъваху тии варязи русь, яко се друзии зовуться свие, друзии же уръмане, анъгляне, друзии гъте, тако и си.* Рѣша руси чюдь, словѣне и кривичи и весь: «Земля наша велика и обильна, а наряда въ неи нѣтъ. Да поидѣте къняжитъ и володѣтъ нами». И избьрашася 3 братия съ роды своими, *пояша по собѣ вьсю русь*, и придоша: старѣишии, Рюрикъ, сѣде Новѣгородѣ, а другии, Синеусъ, на Бѣлѣ-озерѣ, а третии Изборьстѣ, Труворъ. *И отъ тѣхъ варягъ прозъвася Русьская земля,* новугородьци, ти суть людие ноугородьци отъ рода варяжьска, преже бо бѣша словѣне".

_Not exactly the topic of this thread, but the much disputed epithet of Kiev, _се буди мати градомъ русьскымъ_ "let this be mother for the Russian cities", in this chronicle means explicitly "capital of Varangian cities" and nothing more.


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## Ljudevit

My Cyrillic alphabet reading skills are a bit *RUS*ty, so  I checked the English translation of the Primary Chronicle:  http://www.mgh-bibliothek.de/dokumente/a/a011458.pdf. It indicates that  Varangians were invited by native Slavic tribes to keep peace and order.  

_ I guess, mati (mother) in "се буди мати градомъ русьскымъ_" could mean "capital", but it could also mean "origin", "predecessor" or "birthplace". Is that the dispute?

On origin of "_*варягъ/varangi":*_ https://books.google.com/books?id=v8E9AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA218&dq.

It  is interesting, that when I tried using GoogleTranslate to translate  the Old Slavonic to English, it was marking the text as Belorussian that  did the best job of making it understandable for me (just my opinion). I  also tried translating the same text (letters) as Russian, Ukrainian  and Bulgarian.


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## ahvalj

*(I).* I would say, Belarusian it resembles the least, both lexically and orthographically. Well, Google knows better ,-)


*(II).* I will cite the translation from your link (http://www.mgh-bibliothek.de/dokumente/a/a011458.pdf , p. 59) here, though it isn't especially good in my view:

_"6367 (859). The *Varangians from beyond the sea* imposed tribute upon the Chuds, the Slavs, the Merians, the Ves', and the Krivichians. But the Khazars imposed it upon the Polyanians, the Severians, and the Vyatichians, and collected a white squirrel-skin from each hearth.
__
6368-6370 (860-862). The tributaries of the Varangians drove them back beyond the sea and, refusing them further tribute, set out to govern themselves. There was no law among them, but tribe rose against __tribe. Discord thus ensued among them, and they began to war one against another. They said to themselves, "Let us seek a prince who may rule over us and judge us according to the Law." They accordingly went *overseas to the Varangian Russes: these particular Varangians were known as Russes, just as some are called Swedes, and others Normans, English, and Gotlanders, for they were thus named.* The Chuds, the Slavs, the Krivichians, and the Ves' then said to the people of Rus', "Our land is great and rich, but there is no order in it. __Come to rule and reign over us." They thus selected three brothers, with their kinsfolk, who *took with them all the Russes and migrated.* The oldest, Rurik, located himself in Novgorod; the second, Sineus, at Beloozero; and the third, Truvor, in Izborsk. *On account of these Varangians, the district of Novgorod became known as the land of Rus'. *The present inhabitants of Novgorod are descended from the Varangian race, but aforetime they were Slavs".
_

The idea of this excerpt is that the official Kievan doctrine of the early 12th century stated that the original bearers of the name _Rus_- were Scandinavians that lived overseas. Taking into consideration also that:

(1) all the ethnic names on -_ь/-ĭ_ in Old East Slavic were used for the northern neighbors and never for Slavs themselves,

(2) Finnic languages use the word *_Rōtsi_ for Sweden (_Ruotsi_ in modern Finnish, _Rootsi_ in Estonian, _Roči_ in Vepsan etc.),

(3) Byzantines called _Ρως_ the Varangians,

(4) there is an area in Sweden called _Roslagen,_ situated exactly in front of the Finnish gulf (see #7),

(5) the Germanic names of al _Rus_'es cited in #4,

(6) Slavic idioms of the late 1st millennium substituted the closed _ō_ of the neighbor languages with their recently formed _u_ (*_Soomi_>_сумь/sumĭ_ etc.) and simplified or broke the prohibited consonant clusters (*_vepsi_>_весь/vesĭ_, _Egyptos_>_Егѵпьтъ/Egüpĭtŭ_ etc.),

I think it is quite plausible that the origin of the word _Rus_- lies indeed in north-central Sweden as the official (and the only preserved ancient) doctrine suggests.


*(III). *As to the capital, _мати градомъ русьскымъ/mati gradomŭ rusĭskymŭ_ was said after the Varangian prince _Ольгъ/Olĭgŭ_ of Novgorod conquered Kiev. The entire context of the chronicle implies that the _Rus_ came from overseas, settled in the north (_Новъгородъ/Novŭgorodŭ_, _Бѣлоозеро/Běloozero_ and _Изборьскъ/Izborĭskŭ_), then infiltrated to the south, then formally conquered Kiev (_Кыевъ/Kyjevŭ_) and made it their capital, then continued to assemble the nearby lands by forcing them to pay tribute to them instead of Khazars (years 883–885: http://izbornyk.org.ua/pvllavr/pvllavr01.htm). Then they tried to conquer Constantinople itself (years 907–912: http://izbornyk.org.ua/pvllavr/pvllavr02.htm and again in 941 and in 944–945). In 969 the prince Svyatoslav (_Святославъ/Svätoslavŭ_) decided to move the capital even closer to Constantinople:

_Рече Святославъ къ матери своеи и къ боляромъ своимъ: «Не любо ми есть въ Кыевѣ быти, хочю жити в Переяславьци на Дунаи, яко то есть середа земли моеи, яко ту вься благая съходяться: отъ Грекъ злато, паволокы, вина и овощеве розьноличьныя, изъ Чехъ же, изъ Угорь сьребро и комони, изъ Руси же скора и воскъ, медъ и челядь»_ (http://izbornyk.org.ua/pvllavr/pvllavr03.htm).

_"[So] said Svyatoslav to his mother and boyars: "I am not pleased of being in Kiev, I want to live in Pereyaslavets (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pereyaslavets) on the Danube, for this is the midst of my land, for here all the goods come together: from Greece [come] gold, drapery, wines and various fruits, from Bohemia and Hungaria silver and horses, from Rus fur and wax, honey and servants"._

Or, as native English speakers translate:
_"Svyatoslav announced to his mother and his boyars, "I do not care to remain in Kiev, but should prefer to live in Pereyaslavets on the Danube, since that is the centre of my realm, where all riches are concentrated; gold, silks, wine, and various fruits from Greece, silver and horses from Hungary and Bohemia, and from Rus' furs, wax, honey, and slaves." _(http://www.mgh-bibliothek.de/dokumente/a/a011458.pdf , p. 86)
By the way, _челядь/čelädĭ_ "servants" is not "slaves" (_раби/rabi _or_ роби/robi_).

As one can see, there is nothing that would suggest that they had any sentimental ties to Kiev itself.


*(IV). *Unfortunately, your Google Books link leads to nowhere.


*P. S. *Sorry for the italic throughout this thread: something went wrong with the formatting back in January.


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## Ljudevit

Sorry for the second link not working. It should've led to a page from Notes and Queries, published 1878. 
Maybe this one will work better. https://books.google.com/books?id=v8E9AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA218&dq#v=onepage&q&f=false


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## ahvalj

Ljudevit said:


> View attachment 15555
> Sorry for the second link not working. It should've led to a page from Notes and Queries, published 1878.
> Maybe this one will work better. https://books.google.com/books?id=v8E9AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA218&dq#v=onepage&q&f=false


This time I was able to see the attachment. Yes, that's the traditional etymology of this word. By the way, Common Slavic has another Scandinavian loanword of the same kind, _vitędzь_<*_vicędzь_<_víkingR_, with _c_..._dz_ dissimilated into _t_..._dz. C _comes from the Second palatalization and _dz_ from the Third one. In _varęgъ_ (one would expect **_varędzь_) the absence of the Third palatalization is usually explained by the late time of the borrowing or by the mediation of north-western East Slavic, which has other words without it as well (including the coeval Scandinavian borrowing _кълбягъ/кълбяге_<_kylfingR_ — https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kylfings)_._


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## arn00b

I don't have much to add to this discussion.  The rootse- theory is pretty conclusive.

However, one false friend here.  Rusa kosa is red hair in Croatian, but русый/русая (Rusii, Rusaia) is dark-blonde, or light-brown hair.   There's a folk etymology theory (I heard when I was living in Russia) that this word comes from Ros/Rus'/Russki - that the early Russians had light-brown hair so the hair-color was named after the early Russians.


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## Ljudevit

False friend? Maybe, but there are shades of red and brown. Light red hair and light brown are easily confused. In Croatian (and Serbian) this expression could be also used for a brownish hair. Is red hair ever literally red? You're kind of agreeing with my original question, but reversing what was named after what. Hair color for people, or people for hair color?


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## ahvalj

Logically speaking, one would use only such characters for self-identification, which are different from those of the surrounding individuals. For example, the self-identification as "white" was (until recently) redundant in Europe. In this sense, what could be the purpose of self-identifying with this "light brown/dark blonde" hair color, when all neighbors, with the only exception of the Turkic nomads, had exactly the same hair? I can recall only one exception: the Sumerian and Semitic population of ancient Mesopotamia called themselves "black-headed", apparently after their hair color, though we may not quite understand their motivation.


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## gj.koneski

arn00b said:


> I don't have much to add to this discussion.  The rootse- theory is pretty conclusive.
> 
> However, one false friend here.  Rusa kosa is red hair in Croatian, but русый/русая (Rusii, Rusaia) is dark-blonde, or light-brown hair.   There's a folk etymology theory (I heard when I was living in Russia) that this word comes from Ros/Rus'/Russki - that the early Russians had light-brown hair so the hair-color was named after the early Russians.



Rus (Рус) or Rusa (Руса) or Rusokos (Русокос), Rusokosa (Русокоса) means a blond person in Macedonian. The last two variations would literally mean "blond haired". "Rusokos" and "Rusokosa" evolved from an adj + noun form: rusa+kosa.


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## arn00b

We had a fashion/advertising thing where we, without going too much into details, were presented with a list of hair colors in a spectrum. Rusii was placed between шатен/chatain and blond(e).  No Russian would use it for what we call red/ginger (correct me if I'm wrong).

I didn't think much of the folk etymology when I heard it.  It could very well be a coincidence.   But people that believe it believe that the hair color was named after the people, which still leaves the people getting their name from somewhere else.  The fact Macedonian and other Slavic languages having words like rus/rusa/rusokos, depending on how old these words are and their etymology, could disprove the Russian folk theory; If Southern Slavs were saying rus/rusa/rusokos before the word Rus' was applied to the Northern/Eastern Slavs and the Scandinavians, then the similarity would be a coincidence and the folk etymology would be wrong.


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## Ljudevit

I've ran into some indications of another possible origin of the  word Rus. IE *rosa and/or *eres (a dew, humidity, juice, sprinkle, flow)  apparently is connected to the old name of river Volga. Old Slavonic *volga  = humidity, moisture (vlaga in Croatian). So Rus could simply be people  traveling on, and/or living nearby the river Volga? My main source for  the Volga connection, is Hrvatski etimološki rječnik by Alemko Gluhak,  August Cesarec Zagreb 1993.

P.S. For those interested, on the  www, there are a couple of entertaining forums discussing the  blond/red/light hair color, with distribution maps (of not quite clear  origin).


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## ahvalj

One more ancient source: in his work "On the governance of the Empire", written in 948–952 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Administrando_Imperio), the emperor Constantine VII (905–959) calls the inhabitants of the Rus lands _οἱ Ῥῶς_ and their country _Ῥωσία_ (e. g. http://homepage.univie.ac.at/ilja.steffelbauer/DAI.pdf — p. 184: lines 61–62; the full list of occurrences see on p. 307).


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## ahvalj

And one more source: the 9th century Annales Bertiniani (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annales_Bertiniani) mention a group of people that called themselves Rhos (_qi se, id est gentem suam, Rhos vocari dicebant_) and whose origin turned out to be Sueonic (_eos gentis esse Sueonum_) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedes_(Germanic_tribe)).


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