# páramo



## cybersolecito

*¿S*i digo "moor" en inglés se entiende "páramo"? Páramo como el ecosistema propio de los Andes Auramericanos tropicales entre 4000 y 5000 metros de altura.


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## Chris K

La palabra "paramo" existe en inglés: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramo


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## cybersolecito

Mil gracias, aprendí de paso más sobre páramos y bosques de niebla.


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## La Posta

Chris K, según vos la palabra páramo existe en inglés, ¿pero crees que es común hablar de un "paramo" en inglés? Según la descripción que da ese enlace de "paramo", pareciera ser un lugar que  tiene vegetación y vida, en cambio la RAE describe a "páramo" como un espacio yermo: http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltConsulta?TIPO_BUS=3&LEMA=promover

Yo pensaba que se podría tráducir páramo, teniendo en cuenta el concepto de la RAE, en "bleak moorland", pero según el longman "moorland" es más bien un término británico y aparte lo describe como un lugar "covered with rough grass and low bushes."
Me gustaría saber cómo se diría "páramo" de una manera natural y teniendo en cuenta estas explicaciones en inglés.


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## aurilla

www.wordreference.com/es/en/translation.asp?spen=p%c3%a1ramo


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## La Posta

Ya lo había buscado. No es útil eso que pusiste, aurilla.


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## k-in-sc

"Moor" is associated most closely with the British moors. 
Would you call the plains of the American West "pampas"? No, because although they are similar, they're different ecosystems and because each name is associated with a specific region.
Chris K didn't invent the English word "paramo." It refers to a specific South American ecosystem. But it probably would not be recognized by many English speakers unless they are familiar with South America. 
What is it you're wanting to say?


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## La Posta

I want an American English equivalent for "páramo".


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## k-in-sc

Well, since you ask so nicely: "Bleak/windswept/desolate upland."


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## La Posta

What about "barren plain"? Because "upland" sounds like "up". According to longman an upland is "the part of a country that is away from the sea and is higher than other areas". A "páramo" is not higher than other areas.


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## k-in-sc

"Los *páramos*, también conocidos sólo como "páramo”, son ecosistemas de montaña andinos que pertenecen al Dominio Amazónico. Se ubican discontinuamente en el Neotrópico, desde altitudes de aproximadamente 2900 msnm hasta la línea de nieves perpetuas, aproximadamente 5000 msnm."
That sounds pretty high to me.


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## La Posta

So "barren plain" isn't good here?


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## La Posta

Or do you think it is more common to talk about "bleak uplands"?


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## k-in-sc

Well, it seems important to me that it's a high Andean plain, but since I don't know what the context is, I really can't say for sure.


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## La Posta

It is the title of a story because it is the place where the story takes palce.


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## k-in-sc

Then maybe "The High Plain" or "The Andean Plain" or "The Mountain Plain" ... Wouldn't it have been simpler just to have said that in the first place?


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## La Posta

I think it is better "bleak upland" or "barren plain". I don't like the "The" at the beggining and I don't like to mention the "high" or the "mountain". If all of you native American speakers agree that is common to talk about "bleak uplands" or "barren plains" in USA, I'd choose one of those.


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## k-in-sc

All 300 million of us? Maybe we should take a vote. Or maybe you should ask in the geography forum 
At any rate, an upland is high above sea level. "High Plain" seems like the best option to me.


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## La Posta

High Plain lacks the connotation that it is barren.


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## mylam

It is usual to include "The" in a title. Also, ïf you look up "upland" at m-w.com, it is a synonym of "plateau", so it is (as I thought) mostly flat. Without more knowledge of your topic, I'd go with "The Bleak Upland".


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## La Posta

Thank you all.


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## k-in-sc

You're welcome. When you decide what you're going to use, please post back, for posterity


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## Joaqin

I think _paramo_ (without tilde in English) is already included in the Oxford Dictionary. 
But if not it's high time it was so.
Parámo isn't just about being barren, it has to be also tropical, has high altitude, be always 
cold, whence its particular fauna and flora. Far from being a moor.


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## k-in-sc

Yes, it's a word in English, without the accent. But as I said earlier, it's quite specialized and not many people would know what it meant.
Also, there's no single authoritative dictionary of English -- the OED, Webster's Unabridged or any other. And dictionaries are necessarily a decade or more behind usage. So whether a particular word is in a dictionary or not tends not to be very relevant.


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## Joaqin

That fate of not being known happens to a lot of words. I am *personally* more interested in using 
the right word and have a more effective communication than being limited by what some people know 
or don't about said right word. If I had to translate , say, a brochure to entice people to explore the paramos 
of Perú, I certainly wouldn't use any other word. And I would expect the uninformed explorers to find out what 
on earth is a paramo. If, on the other hand, I said _explore the Peruvian moors_; it wouldn't only sound 
boring but would be imprecise and therefore misleading. _Peruvian high planes?_ What a lack of flavour, 
and no, they are not plane.

I said OED as an example of the English language having adopted the said neologism. 
But if you ask me, I tend to trust more the OED over most dictionaries.


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## mylam

I agree that you should use the correct word if, as in your example, you are writing a brochure. I also think that you should try to describe what the word means (define it if you will) in your brochure, so that people don't have to go look it up. It may be the reader's responsibility, but you'll lose a lot of people who are too lazy/ignorant to do so.


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## k-in-sc

La Posta said:


> It is the title of a story because it is the place where the story takes palce.


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## Joaqin

mylam said:


> I agree that you should use the correct word if, as in your example, you are writing a brochure. I also think that you should try to describe what the word means (define it if you will) in your brochure, so that people don't have to go look it up. It may be the reader's responsibility, but you'll lose a lot of people who are too lazy/ignorant to do so.



Yeah. People get the mass media/advertising/culture/etc. that they deserve.


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## Joaqin

On second thoughts I would explain in 'my brochure' the word Perú since, 
as mylam pointed out, there are people who are too lazy or too ignorant, 
or both for them to know or to find out what it is. In fact I have met some 
of them, even in first world countries.


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## La Posta

Joaqin, I think your opinion is perfectly respectacle. Now, in my opinion, I prefer not to interrupt the reader's reading, but to help him/her to go-on reading, which is also beneficial for me because all I want is to tell a story and that the reader understands it, not to teach people new words. If consequently that happens, great! But if people want to know new words, they can read technical or legal texts, among others. Besides, dictionaries may explain words, but the frecuency of use of words is something that must be taken into account and in some texts may be more relevant. 
That is my humble opinion.


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## k-in-sc

If the story is set in/on a paramo, I don't see why that couldn't be the title. The meaning would become clear as the reader went along.


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## La Posta

No. There are no indications apart from the title that the story takes place in a paramo. Even in that way, I prefer the other choice. But as I told joaqin, I respect your opinion.


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## k-in-sc

What is the ''other choice'' you prefer?


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## Eye in the Sky

Wikipedia define páramo como 'alpine tundra ecosystem'. Yo usaré 'tundra ecosystem' para el nombre de un congreso sobre páramos, y entre paréntesis (Páramos).


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## k-in-sc

Why would you drop the "alpine"? The high elevation is a key aspect.


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## Eye in the Sky

The high elevation is given by the word _tundra_ (Merriam Webster: "…a similar region confined to mountainous areas above timberline"). _Alpine_ describes the type of vegetation and soils (Wikipedia: "Alpine tundra does not contain trees because the climate and soils at high altitude block tree growth..."), which I think is given by the word 'Páramo' in brackets. I didn't want a very wordy title, so I dropped _alpine_.


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## k-in-sc

The main definition of "tundra" is the one for Arctic tundra: "a large area of flat land in northern parts of the world where there are no trees and the ground is always frozen." You're looking at a secondary definition. Wikipedia: "Alpine tundra is distinguished from arctic tundra in that alpine tundra typically does not have permafrost, and alpine soils are generally better drained than arctic soils."


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## Eye in the Sky

You may have a point in that I should specify the type of tundra it is (because it's different from the Arctic tundra) if the document were a technical one, but it's a work certification where the name of the Congress on Páramos is in the letterhead. I just don't want it to look so 'bulky' and I'm writing _Páramo_ too.


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## k-in-sc

OK, fair enough 
Just a note: "Bulky" is not a good word for text since text is not three-dimensional. I would say "wordy" here, or just "long."


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## Eye in the Sky

OK, I'll remember the use of bulky!


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