# Urdu-Hindi: laikin vs. magar



## Koozagar

Greetings all,
In Lahore, لیکن and مگر are used interchangeably. I wonder if that is the case in other parts of the motherland?


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## BP.

Used interchangeably.

In the south, Sindhi-speakers use _par_ frequently as well, under the influence of the mother-tongue, since Sindhi almost exclusively uses this.


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## Faylasoof

Yes, used completely interchangeably. The only difference is in etymology. لیکن _lekin _is derived from Arabic while مگر _magar i_s Persian in origin. 

One of the meanings of پَر _par_, as used in Urdu, is also to mean the same, i.e. but = _magar_ = _lekin_. 

This meaning of پَر is derived from Sanskrit (as opposed to پَر = wing, which is Persian).


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## panjabigator

> This meaning of پَر is derived from Sanskrit (as opposed to پَر = wing, which is Persian).


  I'm betting this derives from پرنتو परंतु which also means "but".  

In Persian, مگر and ولی are different, correct?

As a side note, I almost never say neither "magar" or "lekin" in Hindi or Urdu.  "Par" always is my first choice.


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## Faylasoof

panjabigator said:


> I'm betting this derives from پرنتو परंतु which also means "but".
> 
> In Persian, مگر and ولی are different, correct?
> 
> As a side note, I almost never say neither "magar" or "lekin" in Hindi or Urdu.  "Par" always is my first choice.


 This (پرنتو परंतु ) I didn't know!. Platts has this (no. 10) - says Sanskrit is also  _par_ پَر  पर , meaning _but_.

Yes, they are used differently in Farsi, where مگر = except / save / may be / unless, while ولی = but / however. 

 I guess because it is the same in the Punjabi dialect you speak!


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## panjabigator

> I guess because it is the same in the Punjabi dialect you speak!


Bingo 

Caturvedi mentions it here.


> परंतु parāntu (_ind_) but; however; ~क a proviso.



There's also _kintu.
_


> किंतु kīntu (_ind_) but; —परंतु ifs and buts; •करना to dilly-dally, to be evasive.


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## Faylasoof

panjabigator said:


> .
> Bingo
> Caturvedi mentions it here.
> ...
> There's also _kintu._


 
Thanks! I hadn't checked Caturvedi!


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## Qureshpor

Just concentrating on "magar" for a while.

As it has become apparent from the previous posts in this thread, "magar" most often means "but" in Urdu. However, it has been used with its older meanings of "except" and "perhaps".

Here is (as far as I can understand) an example of "magar" for "perhaps".

phir tire kuuche ko jaataa hai xayaal
dil-i-gum-gashtah magar yaad aayaa

Ghalib

Do you, as an Urdu speaker, use "magar" for "perhaps" or "except"?


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## marrish

Qureshpor said:


> Just concentrating on "magar" for a while.
> 
> As it has become apparent from the previous posts in this thread, "magar" most often means "but" in Urdu. However, it has been used with its older meanings of "except" and "perhaps".
> 
> Here is (as far as I can understand) an example of "magar" for "perhaps".
> 
> phir tire kuuche ko jaataa hai xayaal
> dil-i-gum-gashtah magar yaad aayaa
> 
> Ghalib
> 
> *Do you, as an Urdu speaker, use "magar" for "perhaps" or "except"?*


For the moment I cannot recall any such kind of sentence ''except'' this one.
_اس موقع پر مجھے ایسا کوئی فقرہ یاد نہیں آ رہا مگر یہ: معبود کوئی نہیں مگر اللّه۔
:is mauq3e par mujhe aisaa ko'ii fiqrah yaad nahiiN aa rahaa *magar* yih: ma3buud ko'ii nahiiN *magar* allaah_.


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## Faylasoof

Qureshpor said:


> Just concentrating on "magar" for a while.
> 
> As it has become apparent from the previous posts in this thread, "magar" most often means "but" in Urdu. However, it has been used with its older meanings of "except" and "perhaps".
> 
> Here is (as far as I can understand) an example of "magar" for "perhaps".
> 
> phir tire kuuche ko jaataa hai xayaal
> dil-i-gum-gashtah magar yaad aayaa
> 
> Ghalib
> 
> Do you, as an Urdu speaker, use "magar" for "perhaps" or "except"?


 I think here _magar _means _except_: _magar yaad aayaa = except I recalled / but I recalled, _and here _but_ is being used in the meaning of _except_, e.g. _I would do this but for the fact ._..

Had it not been poetry in Ghalib's example, one could use _par_ instead: _maiN yeh kar detaa_ _par (_ or_ magar) mujhe kuchh yaad aayaa = I would have done this except I remembered something. 

_This way of using_ magar _(or_ par_) is certainly part of _our_ speech.


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## fdb

In Persian _magar_ actually means “perhaps”, not “but”. Etymologically it is _ma agar_ “not if”). Persian _lēkin_ (Western Persian _līkin_) is Arabic _lākin_ with imāla in the first syllable. Persian _walē_ (_walī_) is a truncation of Arabic _wa lākin_.


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## Jervoltage

fdb said:


> In Persian _magar_ actually means “perhaps”, not “but”.



It does mean 'but' in the sense of 'except'.


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## Faylasoof

fdb said:


> In Persian magar actually means “perhaps”, not “but”. Etymologically it is ma agar “not if”). Persian lēkin (Western Persian līkin) is Arabic lākin with imāla in the first syllable.Persian walē (walī) is a truncation of Arabic wa lākin.



Interesting! But I recall being taught that _magar_ mostly means  _but / except_ etc.

 Steingass' Persian  also has this:
*مگر magar*, But; unless, except, only, if it is not; perhaps, by chance, haply; moreover; nay.


همه رفتند مگر  او = All went except him / her, and _not_  All went perhaps her (!) 

This is how we use it in Urdu as well, i.e. except / but.

However, here _magar _is used interrogatively to ask something when one is informed of a fact contrary to one's expectation:
مگر زنده است؟ = But, is he / she alive? , and _not_ Perhaps he / she is alive ?

Again the same usage in Urdu: _magar wah zindah hae / haiN ?_

But true,  _magar _ can mean _perhaps_ when used in some situations, as explained *here* in Hayyim.

مگر (2) Preposition Preposition Except, with the exception of. Ex. همه نجات با فنتند مگر يك پیر مرد All were saved except an old man. Syn. غیر- از- بخز - جز & سوای ِ
-Adverb By chance, may be perhaps. Ex. مگر دیده باشی که درباغ وراغ &dlt; بتابد همی کرمکی چون چراغ May be, you have seen in a garden or meadow, A worm that like a light doth glow. Syn. شاید -Adverbial conjunction = مگر آنکه مگر آنکه - مگر اینکه Except that, unless. Ex. تن نر نخواهد داد مگر آنکه کشته شود He will not yield unless he is killed.

While_* shaayad  شاید*_ to mean perhaps is more common. 

My Aryanpour lexicon also has شاید = perhaps. 

This is how these terms are used in Urdu too.

Yes, this is true and we of course use the Persian pronunciation in Urdu and this we've done in a recent thread!


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## marrish

In post 9 I gave one example for _magar_ as 'except', now I found one as an example of 'perhaps':

_اس بے درد شوہر نے میرے مگر اس کو گھر کے دروازے پر دیکھا۔
is be-dard shauhar ne mere magar us ko ghar ke darwaaze par dekhaa.

_"This feelingless husband of mine perhaps saw him at the door of the house."
_(Platts' grammar 1874 p.389)_​


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## Qureshpor

^ Thank you, for the example above. (I had a bit of trouble getting my head round this sentence because I was reading it "mere magar", which my Punjabi brain was converting to "mere piichhe"!). Then I thought of changing the word order to suit my thought process.

"is mere be-dard shauhar ne magar, us ko ghar ke darvaaze par dekhaa." 
I still think in this Ghalib shi3r "magar" implies "perhaps".

​phir tire kuuche ko jaataa hai xayaal
dil-i-gum-gashtah magar yaad aayaa


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## marrish

You're welcome. I can understand that the position of mere in this sentence can bring about a comic effect to a multilingual mind 
Since I haven't commented on ''_magar_'' in this Ghalib couplet, let me do it now, for whatever it is worth.

The first hemistich employs the subject _xayaal_ and the predicate is _jaataa hae _while the second one _dil-e-gum-gashtah_ and _yaad aayaa_ respectively.

_jaataa hae_ is ind. pres. simple; _yaad_ _aayaa_ is ind. past simple.

Hence, I'm tended to understand the whole not as a conditional formation but as a statement thoroughly in the indicative mode and accordingly to this precept ascribe the appropriate sense to ''_magar_'':

1) Once again my thought goes towards your lane
(It's) perhaps (because) I remembered my heart that went missing there

If one went along with post #10, it would be:

2) My thought would go towards your lane again
Except for the fact that I recalled my heart that went missing there.

3) Otherwise, 'my thought goes towards your lane again
but I recalled my heart that went missing there' - keeping up with the indicative.

Now, what do the last two interpretations imply is not obvious: had my heart not been lost there my thought would have gone to the lane where you live is not my favourite as it does not create any idea (but please correct me).

3) thought goes there but as if it stopped on the way because of the reminiscence of the lost heart. - plausible but again, it does not impart anything special, apart from the shift of attention from ''your lane'' to ''my heart'', however even if one agrees with it, it will be only a superficial statement since 'heart' has been lost because of the beloved so the two are connected.

Anyway, the poet appears to be stating that his mind drifts towards 'your lane' again and in the second hemistich offers a justification as to why it happens again: because he recalled that his heart went missing and that *may be* the reason that his thought arrives at 'your lane' while tracing the whereabouts of 'heart which has gone missing'.

In other words, thinking of the beloved is perhaps caused by recalling one's own heart which went missing/got forgotten. I feel that I wasted to many words for it.


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