# being made of ice <and all>



## slothlee

Some Swedish People Built a Hotel Out of Solid Ice from The Atlantic:"Each year, the Icehotel selects artists and architects from around the world to design ice rooms and snow rooms, which guests can book for a stay like any other hotel room. This Swedish frotel is unlike any other inn, mind you: Rooms drop to temperatures of 23 degrees Fahrenheit—that’s right, below freezing, what with the entire room being made of ice and all."

In the last sentence, "made of ice and all", what does "and all" mean here?


----------



## boozer

'And all' is a colloquial expression that means here something like 'and considering all other relevant factors'.


----------



## slothlee

boozer said:


> 'And all' is a colloquial expression that means here something like 'and considering all other relevant factors'.


Thanks, boozer, I am still quite confused, "ice and other relevant factors"? Could you further explain it please?


----------



## Thomas Tompion

In my experience this is the language of the uneducated, both the final 'and all', and the 'what with...' construction.  It's familiar in tone, friendly, and often high-spirited and amusing.

We haven't been told the source.  It reads like British English to me.


----------



## boozer

There is not much to explain, Sloth. 'And all' is often said in cases where there is NOTHING else to be added,  actually - just for the sake of being more 'exhaustive' or eloquent, I do not know.  Here, though, the presence of ice presupposes low temperatures. Besides, this is Sweden, possibly Sweden in winter - the suggestion is that this is not a hot country, i.e. another factor contributing to the low temperature. basically, 'and all' leaves 'all' to your imagination.


----------



## perpend

I agree with boozer. It reads like AmE to me.

"and all" = "and all the surrounding factors" (put in a different way)

EDIT: Cross-posted with boozer.


----------



## velisarius

Who are you calling uneducated, TT? 

For me, "what with the entire room being made of ice and all" is fine, colloquial BrE. It is typically used, as in the _Atlantic_ quote, to state something that the speaker thinks obvious.

A: Are you really in pain, dear? Are you sure you can't come home for Christmas?
B: Well yes, Mum - what with me being here in hospital with a broken arm and two broken legs and all.


----------



## perpend

So, there can be a Happy Christmas with AmE and BrE agreeing, velisarius? That would be a miracle.


----------



## boozer

Folks, for me it is just English - no idea if I picked it up from a BE or AE source.


----------



## Thomas Tompion

It sounded like BE to me and like AE to Perp, so maybe we have an expression common to both languages.


Here is a similar instance from the COCA (the American Corpus). The passage is easier to understand if you know she's thinking about hi-tech gadgets which she came across in Korea - _She did know what a bunch of them were, now that she thought about it: she knew because Seth Jerrison knew, having learned about them since coming to office - although a lot of them still didn't really make sense to him, either, what with being a history professor and all._

I'm not sure that this sort of *and all* is translatable; the effect is often entirely rhetorical.  The sentence would maybe have less of a ring without those two final words, but the meaning would be unaltered.   You could remove the *what with* too.


----------



## velisarius

Same here boozer. I like to think of AE and BE as communicating vessels.


----------



## slothlee

velisarius said:


> Who are you calling uneducated, TT?
> 
> For me, "what with the entire room being made of ice and all" is fine, colloquial BrE. It is typically used, as in the _Atlantic_ quote, to state something that the speaker thinks obvious.
> 
> A: Are you really in pain, dear? Are you sure you can't come home for Christmas?
> B: Well yes, Mum - what with me being here in hospital with a broken arm and two broken legs and all.


Thanks a lot for your example, verlisarius. I am much clear about it now.Do you or the people around you use "and all" in daily life?


----------



## slothlee

boozer said:


> There is not much to explain, Sloth. 'And all' is often said in cases where there is NOTHING else to be added,  actually - just for the sake of being more 'exhaustive' or eloquent, I do not know.  Here, though, the presence of ice presupposes low temperatures. Besides, this is Sweden, possibly Sweden in winter - the suggestion is that this is not a hot country, i.e. another factor contributing to the low temperature. basically, 'and all' leaves 'all' to your imagination.


Thank you very much, boozer, I get what you mean now.


----------



## Thomas Tompion

velisarius said:


> Who are you calling uneducated, TT?


You're not suggesting that you use it, are you, Velisarius?


----------



## velisarius

I use it freely in speech or informal writing. What with it having a nice rhythm and all. I may have picked it up from listening to AE speakers.


----------



## Thomas Tompion

Here's an example from the British Corpus of the 'what with...and all' construction.

And I reckoned that if a star got stopped at the edge, I'd be safe, what with my rocket and all._ Black holes and Uncle Albert _Russell Stannard_.

Black holes and Uncle Albert_ is a school story, so maybe this is how Russell Stannard thinks young people speak.  He may be right, for all I know.


----------



## Thomas Tompion

velisarius said:


> I use it freely in speech or informal writing. What with it having a nice rhythm and all. I may have picked it up from listening to AE speakers.


I'm surprised, not to say shocked, and yes, you may have.  I was wondering if it was an American import.


----------



## perpend

From your educated lips, TT, "and all" has never been voiced, in this context?

EDIT: At it's bottom sense it means "etc.".

EDIT 2.0: I don't think an American was smuggled into Europe to say "and all".


----------



## boozer

Perp, an American may have INFILTRATED Europe to spread 'and all'  Imagine the high purpose of such infiltration.


----------



## slothlee

Thomas Tompion said:


> I'm surprised, not to say shocked, and yes, you may have.  I was wondering if it was an American import.





perpend said:


> From your educated lips, TT, "and all" has never been voiced, in this context?
> 
> EDIT: At it's bottom sense it means "etc.".
> 
> EDIT 2.0: I don't think an American was smuggled into Europe to say "and all".


Thank you so much, perpend. Though I am not sure what you mean by saying"bottom sense", er, I mean what does "bottom" mean here, I could conclude that: First, "and all" means etc"here. Second, no matter you are an American or an Englishman, you can use "and all".


----------



## Thomas Tompion

slothlee said:


> Second, no matter you are an American or an Englishman, you can use "and all".


You can, if you don't mind sounding uneducated.

There is a slightly more educated version - 'what with...and everything'.  That can be useful to express slightly more educated exasperation.


----------



## slothlee

perpend said:


> That's the bottom/essential meaning.


Thank you, perpend. En, I think the question has turned into what is uneducated? Well, I am in the level of trying to speak correct English, and I am far from saying something sounded educated in English. Anyway, I personally think your answer is simple and clear, thanks again.


----------



## slothlee

Thomas Tompion said:


> You can, if you don't mind sounding uneducated.
> 
> There is a slightly more educated version - 'what with...and everything'.  That can be useful to express uneducated exasperation.


Thank you, Thomas. You mean we should add "and everything" in "what with..."? Could you further explain this please?


----------



## Thomas Tompion

slothlee said:


> Thank you, Thomas. You mean we should add "and everything" in "what with..."? Could you further explain this please?


There are British people who, baulking at using the uneducated-sounding *and all*, say *and everything*.  The phrase starts "what with..." in exactly the same way.


----------



## slothlee

Thomas Tompion said:


> There are British people who, baulking at using the uneducated-sounding *and all*, say *and everything*.  The phrase starts "what with..." in exactly the same way.


Oh, I get it now, thank you.


----------



## Thomas Tompion

It has suddenly occurred to me that Hopkins uses 'and all' in the second stanza of _Felix Randal_.

_Sickness broke him. Impatient he cursed at first, but mended  
Being anointed and all; though a heavenlier heart began some 
Months earlier, since I had our sweet reprieve and ransom 
Tendered to him. Ah well, God rest him all road ever he offended!_

The poem was written in 1880, so the expression cannot be a recent American import.  Hopkins was working as a Catholic priest in Liverpool at the time, and may have consciously used the Northern working-class expressions 'and all' and 'all road' to add flavour to the poem.  The blacksmith was only 31 when he died, quite a normal age at which to die in Liverpool at that time.


----------



## perpend

TT, <----> 

Are you so disturbed by "and all"? If so, I am on your side that it needs more consideration.



<----> Please focus on topic itself. Cagey, moderator.


----------



## cando

To me, adding  "... and all" (or "... and everything", or even "... and all that" – Southern/London variant that can have a slightly dismissive tone) is a colloquial way of adding *emphasis* to the main point. It underlines the importance and relevance of the observation with a casual indication of_ ‘all the other implications that go along with that thought’ _(e.g. ice is cold, it melts quickly, it takes skill to carve etc. etc.).


----------



## slothlee

cando said:


> To me, adding  "... and all" (or "... and everything", or even "... and all that" – Southern/London variant that can have a slightly dismissive tone) is a colloquial way of adding *emphasis* to the main point. It underlines the importance and relevance of the observation with a casual indication of_ ‘all the other implications that go along with that thought’ _(e.g. ice is cold, it melts quickly, it takes skill to carve etc. etc.).


Thank you, cando, your explanation is also very clear to me. By the way, I have seen "...and all that" in the TV show while I didn't know it contained "dismissive" tone, so thanks a lot for telling me that.


----------



## sdgraham

cando said:


> To me, adding  "... and all" (or "... and everything", or even "... and all that" – Southern/London variant that can have a slightly dismissive tone) is a colloquial way of adding *emphasis* to the main point. It underlines the importance and relevance of the observation with a casual indication of_ ‘all the other implications that go along with that thought’ _(e.g. ice is cold, it melts quickly, it takes skill to carve etc. etc.).


The usage is common in AE as well among people who apparently don't feel that they've provided enough information. Perhaps it's indicative of insecurity. 

I have an acquaintance who's a retired high school English teacher who tacks on "and all that" onto virtually every declarative statement. Thus it has become a verbal tic like 'you know," "y'know what I'm saying," etc.

A cando points out, some people cannot make a declarative statement without tacking on "etcetera, etcetera," etc.


----------



## slothlee

sdgraham said:


> The usage is common in AE as well among people who apparently don't feel that they've provided enough information. Perhaps it's indicative of insecurity.
> 
> I have an acquaintance who's a retired high school English teacher who tacks on "and all that" onto virtually every declarative statement. Thus it has become a verbal tic like 'you know," "y'know what I'm saying," etc.
> 
> A cando points out, some people cannot make a declarative statement without tacking on "etcetera, etcetera," etc.


Thanks a lot, sdgraham, that's really helpful. By the way, what does the abbreviation"tic" stand for in "verbal tic" you mentioned above?


----------



## Thomas Tompion

A *tic* is not an abbreviation in this context.  It's in our dictionary - _a sudden, spasmodic, painless, involuntary muscular contraction, as of the face._

As these sudden spasmodic movements are involuntary, the word is used in a figurative sense in *verbal tic*, to mean a linguistic habit which is a little out of the ordinary, some way of speaking or writing which is idiosyncratic and frequently repeated.


----------



## se16teddy

Thomas Tompion said:


> _She did know what a bunch of them were, now that she thought about it: she knew because Seth Jerrison knew, having learned about them since coming to office - although a lot of them still didn't really make sense to him, either, what with being a history professor and all._


I feel that the implication of "and all" here is that "being a history professor" is to be understood as a cause rather than a concession. A lot of them didn't make sense to him* because* he was a history profession, not *despite the fact* that he was a history professor. I feel that in #1 "and all" has the same function.

I am familiar with this usage in this kind of context
_Fred is a right know-all, with him having GCSEs and all._


----------



## slothlee

Thomas Tompion said:


> A *tic* is not an abbreviation in this context.  It's in our dictionary - _a sudden, spasmodic, painless, involuntary muscular contraction, as of the face._
> 
> As these sudden spasmodic movements are involuntary, the word is used in a figurative sense in *verbal tic*, to mean a linguistic habit which is a little out of the ordinary, some way of speaking or writing which is idiosyncratic and frequently repeated.


Thanks again, Thomas. I get it now. I checked the dictionary before and it shows the word tic means movement of a muscle in your face, that's why I was confused. I get the meaning now with your help.


----------



## slothlee

se16teddy said:


> I feel that the implication of "and all" here is that "being a history professor" is to be understood as a cause rather than a concession. A lot of them didn't make sense to him* because* he was a history profession, not *despite the fact* that he was a history professor. I feel that in #1 "and all" has the same function.
> 
> I am familiar with this usage in this kind of context
> _Fred is a right know-all, with him having GCSEs and all._


Thank you, se16teddy and I have a new question related to what you mentioned. As you say "and all" means "because" here, "having learned about them since coming to office", what does the subject of this clause, she or he? Do you mean that in "being made of ice and all", "and all" means "because"?


----------



## velisarius

I think that in the OP the whole phrase is being used with slight sarcasm because it's stating a self-evident fact - that's the way I used it in my example sentence too. 

Mr TT's example with the history professor is also tinged with irony - "after all, what can you expect from a history professor?".


----------



## RM1(SS)

"And all" does not mean "because."  I would say that "what with" does, though.

"That’s right, below freezing, because of the entire room's being made of ice and all."
"A lot of them still didn't really make sense to him, either, because of his being a history professor and all."


----------



## slothlee

velisarius said:


> I think that in the OP the whole phrase is being used with slight sarcasm because it's stating a self-evident fact - that's the way I used it in my example sentence too.
> 
> Mr TT's example with the history professor is also tinged with irony - "after all, what can you expect from a history professor?".


Thank you so much, velisarius. You mentioned "in the OP", what does "OP" stand for? By the way, in Mr TT's example, ""having learned about them since coming to office" , in this clause, the subject is the professor , right?


----------



## slothlee

RM1(SS) said:


> "And all" does not mean "because."  I would say that "what with" does, though.
> 
> "That’s right, below freezing, because of the entire room's being made of ice and all."
> "A lot of them still didn't really make sense to him, either, because of his being a history professor and all."


Thanks a lot, RM1(SS), "what with" is kind of set structure here means "because", right?


----------



## velisarius

slothlee said:


> You mentioned "in the OP", what does "OP" stand for?


OP is one of the few accepted abbreviations. Original Post stands for Post #1. It can also stand for Original Poster (the person who started the thread) .


----------



## slothlee

velisarius said:


> OP is one of the few accepted abbreviations. Original Post stands for Post #1. It can also stand for Original Poster (the person who started the thread) .


Oh, I get it, thanks a lot.


----------

