# Biblical Hebrew: The impossible we do overnight



## edwardtheconfessor

Hi
Anyone out ther can speak and write BIBLICAL (Old Testament (NOT modern) Hebrew (and NOT YIDDISH))?

'The impossible we do overnight; miracles take a bit longer'

('we' means 'you and I'. 'overnight' can be liiteral or a figure of speech.
'take a bit longer' = need a little more time and effort.
'miracles' - amazing wonderful things - especially if life-changing!
'the impossible' means that which seems impossible.)

It's a business slogan.  IN CORRECT BIBLICAL HEBREW SCRIPT PLEASE!

Anyone can help me?
Thank you so much (I will say that in biblical hebrew, if you tell me how to!)


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## origumi

Biblical and Modern Hebrew are the same language. The difference is mainly in style and preferences. You can try something similar to the sentence below... but I cannot recommend archaic language for a business slogan. It wouldn't sell.

את הקשה עד-בלי-די נעשה טרם ליל יחלף. נפלאות עוד אחת מעט תארכנה.


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## Nunty

I agree with origumi that using Old Testament-style Hebrew for a business slogan won't fly. It just sounds weird. (But origumi made a brilliant attempt.)

(By the way, it is as silly to specify "NOT YIDDISH" (shouting in all caps) as to specify "not Japanese" or "not Catalan"; if you ask for Hebrew in the Hebrew forum no one is going to offer you some other random language.)


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## edwardtheconfessor

origumi said:


> Biblical and Modern Hebrew are the same language. The difference is mainly in style and preferences. You can try something similar to the sentence below... but I cannot recommend archaic language for a business slogan. It wouldn't sell.
> 
> את הקשה עד-בלי-די נעשה טרם ליל יחלף. נפלאות עוד אחת מעט תארכנה.


Thank you, origumi, for this translation. I did not know that biblical Hebrew and modern Hebrew are the same (there I showed my ingornace!) Thank you for explaining.
The slogan is mine. I am a Mental and Spiritual Healer (as well as a keen amateur philologist - less of a linguist, as you see!). It is for my website and if this is authentic - which I'm sure it is - then I think it will do very well! (My slogan will eventually appear on my website in quite a number of less well-known languages - some of which I have been researching for a few years now).

Thank you so much.


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## edwardtheconfessor

Nunty said:


> I agree with origumi that using Old Testament-style Hebrew for a business slogan won't fly. It just sounds weird. (But origumi made a brilliant attempt.)
> 
> (By the way, it is as silly to specify "NOT YIDDISH" (shouting in all caps) as to specify "not Japanese" or "not Catalan"; if you ask for Hebrew in the Hebrew forum no one is going to offer you some other random language.)


 
Hello Nunty. Thank you for your advice. I am new to this site and have to learn the rules! Origumi seems to have answered my request - see my response to origumi above.  But if you feel inclined to assisit further then by all means ...
Anyway, thank you for your interest.


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## Nunty

Do you really need it to be in ancient Hebrew, as opposed to a formal, poetic, high register Modern Hebrew? I think other natives, including those of us who are very comfortable with Biblical Hebrew,  will join me in finding it a very strange sentence, in spite of origumi's stellar efforts. For one thing, ancient Hebrew of different periods is markedly distinct. Several periods are represented in the Old Testament alone.


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## origumi

I am sure that earthly Biblical translation (vs. the collage of Malachi, Genesis, Isaiah, Haggai) is possible and even easy. The problem is to go back to the Bible for every word and see whether it was already there and used in which way.

For example: "impossible" could be בלתי אפשרי. Is בלתי a Biblical word? (yes). Is it used in the Bible like Latin in- (or im-) for negation? (no, or at least not often, the modern use of בלתי seems to be influenced by IE languages). What about אפשרי? (root פ-ש-ר does appear but seldom. אפשר and אפשרי are not in the Bible I think). This is a real trouble for Modern Hebrew speakers.


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## Nunty

Sorry, what do you mean by "earthly Biblical translation"? 

I agree with you that a word-by-word check for vocabulary and grammar would be fascinating.


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## origumi

Nunty said:


> Sorry, what do you mean by "earthly Biblical translation"?


Not poetical, clear and simple. Something like בראשית ברא אלוקים את השמיים ואת הארץ. Although appears in the beginning (and maybe the most ancient) part of the Bible, yet as modern as if was written just yesterday.


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## Nunty

I agree with you. That would work beautifully. Excellent idea. I'll be thinking about that, but I'm going abroad tomorrow. It will be fascinating to see what you settle on. If I come up with anything, I'll run to an Internet cafe before I forget.


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## edwardtheconfessor

Dear origumi and Nunty ...
Never dreamed I would ignite such a lively debate!  When you settle on something, post it here won't you ... I'd be so so interested!


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## edwardtheconfessor

Hello origumi and Nunty - and anyone else who's interested. What happened to the really exciting idea of consulting Old Testament passages for a species of translation of this sentence?  That sounded so very promising ....
Or are there any other takers???  (stiill need the translation!)
Cheers   - edwardtheconfessor


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## origumi

I can give it another try, not better neither worse than the previous one (in this thread).

the impossible אֲשֶׁר אֵין-נַעֲשָׂה (Ecclestiates 8:11)
we can do יָכוֹל נוּכַל (Numbers 13:30)
overnight בִּן-לַיְלָה (Johah 4:10)
miracles נִפְלָאוֹת גְּדֹלוֹת (Psalms 136:4)
length of days אֹרֶךְ יָמִים (Proverbs 3:2)
a little מְעַט מְעָט (Deuteronomy 7:22)
take time יִמָּשֵׁכו (Isaiah 13:22)

Thus:
אֲשֶׁר אֵין-נַעֲשָׂה יָכוֹל נוּכַל בִּן-לַיְלָה. נִפְלָאוֹת גְּדֹלוֹת אֹרֶךְ יָמִים מְעַט מְעָט יִמָּשֵׁכוּ

Modern Hebrew speakers may find this sentence difficult.

Not sure if the last word (יִמָּשֵׁכוּ) can be used for f. in biblical Hebrew as in modern.


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## hadronic

I find the "yakhol nukhal" part strange. How does it justify grammatically ?
And as for "take time יִמָּשֵׁכו " : I think you took a pausal form, didn't you ?


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## origumi

"yakhol nukhal" is infinitive absolute. Was discussed here: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1498121.

"yimaSHEkhu" is a pausal form (the stress moves backward), but it's Isaiah rather than me who took it . Sounds more biblical, as the thread opener wanted.


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## scriptum

origumi said:


> Modern Hebrew speakers may find this sentence difficult.


I am afraid King Solomon himself would feel a little confused, too...


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## origumi

scriptum said:


> I am afraid King Solomon himself would feel a little confused, too...


LOL. That's a point. But then again, translating modern ideas to biblical language is challenging. For example, how would you say "impossible" when it's בלתי אפשרי to use בלתי אפשרי?


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## scriptum

origumi said:


> how would you say "impossible" when it's בלתי אפשרי to use בלתי אפשרי?


וְהֵמַתָּה אֶת-הָעָם הַזֶּה, כְּאִישׁ אֶחָד; וְאָמְרוּ, הַגּוֹיִם, אֲשֶׁר-שָׁמְעוּ אֶת-שִׁמְעֲךָ, לֵאמֹר. מִבִּלְתִּי יְכֹלֶת יְהוָה, לְהָבִיא אֶת-הָעָם הַזֶּה, אֶל-הָאָרֶץ, אֲשֶׁר-נִשְׁבַּע לָהֶם; וַיִּשְׁחָטֵם, בַּמִּדְבָּר.
(במדבר י"ד)
Thus, "impossibility" is בלתי יכולת. That's all I can think of at the moment...


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## edwardtheconfessor

origumi said:


> I can give it another try, not better neither worse than the previous one (in this thread).
> 
> the impossible אֲשֶׁר אֵין-נַעֲשָׂה (Ecclestiates 8:11)
> we can do יָכוֹל נוּכַל (Numbers 13:30)
> overnight בִּן-לַיְלָה (Johah 4:10)
> miracles נִפְלָאוֹת גְּדֹלוֹת (Psalms 136:4)
> length of days אֹרֶךְ יָמִים (Proverbs 3:2)
> a little מְעַט מְעָט (Deuteronomy 7:22)
> take time יִמָּשֵׁכו (Isaiah 13:22)
> 
> Thus:
> אֲשֶׁר אֵין-נַעֲשָׂה יָכוֹל נוּכַל בִּן-לַיְלָה. נִפְלָאוֹת גְּדֹלוֹת אֹרֶךְ יָמִים מְעַט מְעָט יִמָּשֵׁכוּ
> 
> Modern Hebrew speakers may find this sentence difficult.
> 
> Not sure if the last word (יִמָּשֵׁכוּ) can be used for f. in biblical Hebrew as in modern.


 
Origumi; thank you so much for this trans. The OT references illuminate this for me. It is what I wanted. I can say to you 'thank you so much' in Hebrew - if you enlighten me!

Other contributors: Fascinating debate. Way out of my depth here, I'm afraid! (I'm an amateur philologist: I'm not a linguist!) but thanks all the same!
- edwardtheconfessor


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## Maayan

edwardtheconfessor said:


> Origumi; thank you so much for this trans. The OT references illuminate this for me. It is what I wanted. I can say to you 'thank you so much' in Hebrew - if you enlighten me!


 
*whispering in Edward's ear* תודה רבה /toda raba/ = thank you very much


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## jdotjdot89

origumi said:


> I can give it another try, not better neither worse than the previous one (in this thread).
> 
> the impossible אֲשֶׁר אֵין-נַעֲשָׂה (Ecclestiates 8:11)
> we can do יָכוֹל נוּכַל (Numbers 13:30)
> overnight בִּן-לַיְלָה (Johah 4:10)
> miracles נִפְלָאוֹת גְּדֹלוֹת (Psalms 136:4)
> length of days אֹרֶךְ יָמִים (Proverbs 3:2)
> a little מְעַט מְעָט (Deuteronomy 7:22)
> take time יִמָּשֵׁכו (Isaiah 13:22)
> 
> Thus:
> אֲשֶׁר אֵין-נַעֲשָׂה יָכוֹל נוּכַל בִּן-לַיְלָה. נִפְלָאוֹת גְּדֹלוֹת אֹרֶךְ יָמִים מְעַט מְעָט יִמָּשֵׁכוּ
> 
> Modern Hebrew speakers may find this sentence difficult.
> 
> Not sure if the last word (יִמָּשֵׁכוּ) can be used for f. in biblical Hebrew as in modern.



Excellent attempt at working on that sentence.  I think though that, as you mentioned earlier, the biggest problem here is that all of the different pieces are taken from different periods of Hebrew--which just feels a little strange to me reading it.  But then again, maybe it's just because it's a sentence written in Biblical Hebrew that I've never seen before _ever_, which doesn't happen too often given that it's pretty rare that there are new sentences in Biblical Hebrew.

Also, regarding יכול נוכל, I would personally trade that for עשה נעשה.  (Source: Jeremiah 44:17 / ירמיהו מד:יז)

*יז* כִּי *עָשֹׂה נַעֲשֶׂה* אֶת-כָּל-הַדָּבָר אֲשֶׁר-יָצָא מִפִּינוּ, לְקַטֵּר לִמְלֶכֶת הַשָּׁמַיִם וְהַסֵּיךְ-לָהּ נְסָכִים, כַּאֲשֶׁר עָשִׂינוּ אֲנַחְנוּ וַאֲבֹתֵינוּ מְלָכֵינוּ וְשָׂרֵינוּ, בְּעָרֵי יְהוּדָה וּבְחֻצוֹת יְרוּשָׁלִָם; וַנִּשְׂבַּע-לֶחֶם וַנִּהְיֶה טוֹבִים, וְרָעָה לֹא רָאִינוּ.


Which would leave as the final sentence:
אֲשֶׁר אֵין-נַעֲשָׂה עָשֹׂה נַעֲשֶׂה נוּכַל בִּן-לַיְלָה. נִפְלָאוֹת גְּדֹלוֹת אֹרֶךְ יָמִים מְעַט מְעָט יִמָּשֵׁכוּ

I also like how it uses עשה twice (or three times rather), kind of like "we do what can't be done."

Thoughts?


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## kishmish

I join Nunty...the debate is facinating and the attempt to find each word in the bible is with a lot of thought. however, to me this sentence makes no sense, especially the second part of it.

longer- in English longer than (comparison). In the Hebrew translation it is not clear. On the contrary, it sounds as if the miracles will not take long, it will last  מעט מעט to do them...

With the translation of word-by-word you cannot grasp the feel of the whole sentence. It sounds like an artificial combination of words...I use translate, because despite being the same language, it is extremely different, and an avarage Israeli today will not understand this sentence. I guess you can say the same about ancient and modern English.

Good luck


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## jdotjdot89

kishmish said:


> I join Nunty...the debate is facinating and the attempt to find each word in the bible is with a lot of thought. however, to me this sentence makes no sense, especially the second part of it.
> 
> longer- in English longer than (comparison). In the Hebrew translation it is not clear. On the contrary, it sounds as if the miracles will not take long, it will last  מעט מעט to do them...
> 
> With the translation of word-by-word you cannot grasp the feel of the whole sentence. It sounds like an artificial combination of words...I use translate, because despite being the same language, it is extremely different, and an avarage Israeli today will not understand this sentence. I guess you can say the same about ancient and modern English.
> 
> Good luck



I think we've mostly all agreed that the sentence won't really ever be of any real quality, though an interesting exercise.

In short, to the edwardtheconfessor, I don't think you should really use this as part of your business.  It just isn't really a meaningful sentence.  You could certainly use the modern Hebrew equivalent, though.


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## edwardtheconfessor

jdotjdot89 said:


> I think we've mostly all agreed that the sentence won't really ever be of any real quality, though an interesting exercise.
> 
> In short, to the edwardtheconfessor, I don't think you should really use this as part of your business. It just isn't really a meaningful sentence. You could certainly use the modern Hebrew equivalent, though.


 
jdotjdot89 - thank you for your advice - and thanks too to all others contributing to this scholarly debate. I'm not a linguist, as I've said, and am floundering out of my depth here - HOWEVER: I'm *Not *about to give up on this one. Thanks, but modern Hebrew just wouldn't answer the need. The idea of seeking the words from OT quotations is a truly exciting one, and having come this far, let's not throw in the towel on that now! If there is a whee problem or two with grammar or syntax (and I can follow that much of the advice so generously given here) and a word-by-word is not quite doing it for the whole sentence (I have to say; that doesn't really surprise me) then I shall still be most grateful for continuing refinements advice - until we get there.

Many thanks indeed to all who have contributed thus far and - keep it coming (till we get there) please!

-edwardtheconfessor


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## Maayan

Hi Edward,

Here's my take on a rhymed slogan using words that appear in different contexts in the Bible:


אֶת הַלֹא יֵאָמֵן נַעֲשֵֶֹה מַהֶר
פְּלָאוֹת – יארְכוּ מְעַט יֹתֵר


Transcription:
'et halo ye'amen na'ase maher
pla'ot - ya'arkhu me'at yoter


Literal meaning:
The unbelievable we'll do fast
Wonders - will take a bit longer


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## scriptum

Bravo Maayan!

(I think the right form is _ye'erkhu_)


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## Maayan

Thanks Scriptum! 

I also thought it should be ye'erkhu, but I could only find ya'arkhu in the Bible: Ezekiel 12;22


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## scriptum

You are right. My apologies.


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## hadronic

פ''גרונית (first guttural) verbs have very complicated forms in the future tense.
The rough rule in forming 2nd-fem-sg and 2nd/3rd-masc-pl is : if the stem vowel is "o", then the preformant vowel is "a"; if the stem vowel is "a", then the preformant vowel is "e", irrelevant of the preformant in the first and second person singular (e or a)
Ex:
אאסוף e'es*o*f / te'es*o*f / t*a*'*a*s°fi : stem vowel "o"  ==> 2f-sg "a"  (but 1-sg and 2m-sg "e")
אארך e'er*a*kh / te'er*a*kh / t*e*'*e*r°khi : stem "a" ==> 2f-sg "e" (but 1-sg and 2m-sg "e")
אעבוד e`ev*o*d / ta`av*o*d / t*a*`*a*v°di  : stem "o" ==> 2f-sg "a" (but 1-sg "e" and 2m-sg "a")
אחפון eHp*o*n / taHp*o*n / t*a*Hp°ni : etc...
אחדל eHd*a*l / teHd*a*l / t*e*Hd°li


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## edwardtheconfessor

Maayan said:


> Hi Edward,
> 
> Here's my take on a rhymed slogan using words that appear in different contexts in the Bible:
> 
> 
> אֶת הַלֹא יֵאָמֵן נַעֲשֵֶֹה מַהֶר
> פְּלָאוֹת – יארְכוּ מְעַט יֹתֵר
> 
> 
> Transcription:
> 'et halo ye'amen na'ase maher
> pla'ot - ya'arkhu me'at yoter
> 
> 
> Literal meaning:
> The unbelievable we'll do fast
> Wonders - will take a bit longer


 
Hello Maayan - if this really is a nifty little take on a rhymed slogan which is indeed from the Bible then .... I think we're there!! The transliteration helps a lot too - I'm not ace at reading Hebrew script and don't have that facility on my wordpro - so does the translation!
Thank you so much (somebody on this thread told me how to say THAT in biblical Hebrew but I don't have that to hand just now!)

- edwardtheconfessor


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## Maayan

You're welcome, Edward


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## edwardtheconfessor

Maayan said:


> Hi Edward,
> 
> Here's my take on a rhymed slogan using words that appear in different contexts in the Bible:
> 
> 
> אֶת הַלֹא יֵאָמֵן נַעֲשֵֶֹה מַהֶר
> פְּלָאוֹת – יארְכוּ מְעַט יֹתֵר
> 
> 
> Transcription:
> 'et halo ye'amen na'ase maher
> pla'ot - ya'arkhu me'at yoter
> 
> 
> Literal meaning:
> The unbelievable we'll do fast
> Wonders - will take a bit longer



Okay;
Maayan, jdotjdot89, Kishmish, origumi, Nunty, hadronic, scriptum - (if you are are still there?) - and anyone else who has helped me: THANK YOU.  Taking account of all the caveats of which you have all warned (for which I also thank you all), I now intend to send this on its way (i.e. to be put on my website) as a (species of) 'Biblical Hebrew' translation of my slogan ... unless anyone else has any further relevant knowledge to shed on this one. Okay?

 -edwardtheconfessor


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## jdotjdot89

As we've said before, it's not really "Biblical" Hebrew per se, but other than that, I can't think of anything I would add.

If you're planning on including vowels, I would just double-check to make sure that you have them correct, since vowels can often be displayed improperly if you don't know what you're doing.


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## utopia

origumi said:


> "yakhol nukhal" is infinitive absolute. Was discussed here: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1498121.
> 
> "yimaSHEkhu" is a pausal form (the stress moves backward), but it's Isaiah rather than me who took it . Sounds more biblical, as the thread opener wanted.


 

The Infinitive Absolute is discussed here:
http://www.harrassowitz-verlag.de/dzo/artikel/201/003/3783_201.pdf?t=1273162408

And it has some functions in Biblical Hebrew.


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## Omerik

origumi said:


> Biblical and Modern Hebrew are the same language. The difference is mainly in style and preferences. You can try something similar to the sentence below... but I cannot recommend archaic language for a business slogan. It wouldn't sell.
> 
> את הקשה עד-בלי-די נעשה טרם ליל יחלף. נפלאות עוד אחת מעט תארכנה.


It's not the same at all.
One of the most obvious differences - Modern Hebrew has past, present and future tenses, while Biblical Hebrew has only imperfect and perfect aspects, if I'm not wrong. Most Modern Hebrew speakers don't even realise how different these two languages are. Hebrew speakers that I know find it difficult to understand the meaning of perfect/imperfect aspects at all, when they learn English - yet they don't even realise that Biblical Hebrew has aspects. I've always thought that Biblical Hebrew has past and future tenses (without present), but then I've learnt that it's not even tenses.

So, Biblical Hebrew is a language with no tenses, but aspects - while Modern Hebrew speakers use tenses but have problems grasping the concept of "aspects".

There are other differences, for example the order of words in a sentence.
In Modern Hebrew, we would use noun-verb-object, but as far as I know, in the Biblical language verbs are used before nouns (as in formal Arabic).

The Biblical language is not simply "difficult to understand to modern speakers", but simply a different one. Modern Hebrew was derived from it, mostly, but it's not the same at all.


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## jdotjdot89

Omerik said:


> It's not the same at all.
> One of the most obvious differences - Modern Hebrew has past, present and future tenses, while Biblical Hebrew has only imperfect and perfect aspects, if I'm not wrong. Most Modern Hebrew speakers don't even realise how different these two languages are. Hebrew speakers that I know find it difficult to understand the meaning of perfect/imperfect aspects at all, when they learn English - yet they don't even realise that Biblical Hebrew has aspects. I've always thought that Biblical Hebrew has past and future tenses (without present), but then I've learnt that it's not even tenses.
> 
> So, Biblical Hebrew is a language with no tenses, but aspects - while Modern Hebrew speakers use tenses but have problems grasping the concept of "aspects".
> 
> There are other differences, for example the order of words in a sentence.
> In Modern Hebrew, we would use noun-verb-object, but as far as I know, in the Biblical language verbs are used before nouns (as in formal Arabic).
> 
> The Biblical language is not simply "difficult to understand to modern speakers", but simply a different one. Modern Hebrew was derived from it, mostly, but it's not the same at all.



I think that your claims are a little exaggerated; I would side more with origumi on this one.


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