# Mi madre dice que lavemos los platos



## 1012

Hola hola otra vez a todos

I was, & am practicing the subjunctive

Came across two sentences:
a. Mi madre  dice que eres un buen chico
b. Mi madre dice que lavemos los platos

En la segunda frase se usa el subjuntivo, y no en la primera. 

Why?

Also, what I've learnt is - one uses the subjunctive only with 'no decir.'

I value your responses


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## Bevj

The first sentence is a simple statement.
The second is an indirect command.


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## Artifacs

You may use subjuntive in (a) as you did in (b) if you want. It just changes the meaning of the sentence:

a. (Mother says) "He's a good boy." ==> Mi madre dice que eres buen chico.

c. (Mother says) "Be a good boy." ==> Mi madre dice que seas buen chico.


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## 1012

Artifacs said:


> You may use subjuntive in (a) as you did in (b) if you want. It just changes the meaning of the sentence:
> 
> a. (Mother says) "He's a good boy." ==> Mi madre dice que eres buen chico.
> 
> c. (Mother says) "Be a good boy." ==> Mi madre dice que seas buen chico.


Thank you, thank you.

Is the below true:

Mi madre no dice que no seas un buen chico?


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## Artifacs

1012 said:


> Is the below true:
> 
> Mi madre no dice que no seas un buen chico?


I'm sorry. I don't understand your question. If you are asking if the sentence is correct, I would say yes, it is correct.


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## 1012

Well, the english sentence is-
My mom does not say that you are a good boy


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## Artifacs

1012 said:


> Well, the english sentence is-
> My mom does not say that you are a good boy


Ok. Which option (a) or (b) wants the mother convey with that English sentence?


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## 1012

I mean in the above sentence-
My mom does not say bla bla bla.

Se usa el subjuntivo, ¿no?

Porque se usa el subjuntivo con no decir


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## Circunflejo

1012 said:


> Se usa el subjuntivo, ¿no?


Depende de qué se quiera expresar exactamente.


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## 1012

Circunflejo said:


> Depende de qué se quiera expresar exactamente.


My mom does not say that you are a good boy.
Yo diria- mi madre no dice que seas un buen chico

Esta bien?


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## Circunflejo

1012 said:


> Esta bien?


Depende de qué quiera expresar exactamente el original en inglés.


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## 1012

Circunflejo said:


> Depende de qué quiera expresar exactamente el original en inglés.


Ya te dije. The sentence in English is-

My mom does not say that you are a good boy


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## Circunflejo

1012 said:


> The sentence in English is-
> 
> My mom does not say that you are a good boy


Yes, but that sentence has more than one reading in English and it's relevant to know what's the intended meaning in order to use the right tense in the translation.


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## 1012

Ok, that's fine. Thank you


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## Artifacs

You can't have both, an statement and a command, at the same time in the Spanish translation. That's why we need to know what is the intended meaning in English.


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## lagartija68

Mum says, you're a good boy.
Mum tells us to wash the dishes.

En el primer caso es discurso indirecto de una oración de tipo enunciativa y la segunda de una de tipo exhortativa.

Mamá dice: "José es un buen chico". =  Mamá dice que tú, José, eres un buen chico.
Mama dijo: "José es un buen chico". = Mamá dijo que tú, José, eras un buen chico.

Mamá dice: "Lavad los platos". = Mamá dice que lavemos los platos.
Mamá dijo: "Lavad los platos". = Mamá dijo que laváramos los platos.


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## Peterdg

1012 said:


> My mom does not say that you are a good boy





Circunflejo said:


> Yes, but that sentence has more than one reading in English


How does that sentence in English have more than one possible interpretation?


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## gengo

1012 said:


> Well, the *E*nglish sentence is-
> My mom does not say that you are a good boy



There is no implied command in that sentence, so there is no need for the subjunctive.  It translates to:  Mi mamá no dice que eres un buen chico.

The Spanish you wrote (Mi madre no dice que no seas un buen chico) is grammatically correct, although a bit unusual.  It translates to "My mother doesn't tell you not to be a good boy."

That double negative sort of makes my head spin.


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## elroy

My mom doesn’t say you’re a good boy.

This has only one possible meaning in English: “My mom doesn’t affirm that you are a good boy.”

Mi madre no dice que seas un buen chico.

I think this is ambiguous in Spanish.  It can mean either 
(1) My mom doesn’t say you’re a good boy.
or
(2) My mom doesn’t ask that you be a good boy. 

We can change the verb to eliminate the ambiguity. 

(1) Mi madre no afirma que seas un buen chico. 
(2) Mi madre no pide que seas un buen chico. 

I don’t know if it’s possible to use “no dice que eres” to express (1); if so, that would be another way to eliminate the ambiguity in that one.


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## 1012

elroy said:


> My mom doesn’t say you’re a good boy.
> 
> This has only one possible meaning in English: “My mom doesn’t affirm that you are a good boy.”
> 
> Mi madre no dice que seas un buen chico.
> 
> I think this is ambiguous in Spanish.  It can mean either
> (1) My mom doesn’t say you’re a good boy.
> or
> (2) My mom doesn’t ask that you be a good boy.
> 
> We can change the verb to eliminate the ambiguity.
> 
> (1) Mi madre no afirma que seas un buen chico.
> (2) Mi madre no pide que seas un buen chico.
> 
> I don’t know if it’s possible to use “no dice que eres” to express (1); if so, that would be another way to eliminate the ambiguity in that one.


I completely agree with you.

Even I browsed the same info on the net. 
And it says, we have to use the subjunctive with 'no decir.'

Anyways, thanks for your precious time

W


gengo said:


> There is no implied command in that sentence, so there is no need for the subjunctive.  It translates to:  Mi mamá no dice que eres un buen chico.
> 
> The Spanish you wrote (Mi madre no dice que no seas un buen chico) is grammatically correct, although a bit unusual.  It translates to "My mother doesn't tell you not to be a good boy."
> 
> That double negative sort of makes my head spin.


With due respect...

But, as per the rules of the Spanish grammar- one is not supposed to use the indicative with 'no decir.'
Might be the discussed example, is an exception. Might be


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## Artifacs

1012 said:


> With due respect...
> 
> But, as per the rules of the Spanish grammar- one is not supposed to use the indicative with 'no decir.'
> Might be the discussed example, is an exception. Might be


That grammar rule for foreign Spanish students may work in a beginner Spanish level, but it is WRONG in an advanced Spanish level when using statement clauses.

You may perfectly say: _No digo que no me gusta París._.

 In fact, it is very common the estructure: _No estoy diciendo que + VERB (indicative mode)..._ as an introduction in order to clarify an following statement.


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## Circunflejo

1012 said:


> With due respect...
> 
> But, as per the rules of the Spanish grammar- one is not supposed to use the indicative with 'no decir.'


With all due respect, as a native Spanish speaker, I tell you that there's no Spanish grammar rule forbidding the use of indicative with no decir in the right context. The previous poster, another native Spanish speaker was crystal clear about it too. But, of course, you are free to believe whatever you want to believe.


elroy said:


> I don’t know if it’s possible to use “no dice que eres” to express (1); if so, that would be another way to eliminate the ambiguity in that one.


Yes, it is but it introduces different nuances that I think that are lost in the translation into English. That's why I said that the English had more than one reading. Maybe not so much for the English speaker but for the Spanish speaker. The Spanish speaker may read it as seas or eres getting, therefore, two similar, but different, pictures where an English speaker gets a single picture.


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## 1012

Artifacs said:


> That grammar rule for foreign Spanish students may work in a beginner Spanish level, but it is WRONG in an advanced Spanish level when using statement clauses.
> 
> You may perfectly say: _No digo que no me gusta París._.
> 
> In fact, it is very common the estructure: _No estoy diciendo que + VERB (indicative mode)..._ as an introduction in order to clarify an following statement.


Well, in your sentence: No digo que no me gusta _París.

I reckon. that is a fact as per you. Hence, the indicative.

And in my sentence: My mom says that you are a good boy. Should be subjunctive as it's an 'opinion' of my mom.

Am I making sense (or) am I?

Please advise_


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## Circunflejo

1012 said:


> My mom says that you are a good boy. Should be subjunctive as it's an 'opinion' of my mom.


Is it an opinion of your mom or a fact for your mom?


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## 1012

Circunflejo said:


> With all due respect, as a native Spanish speaker, I tell you that there's no Spanish grammar rule forbidding the use of indicative with no decir in the right context. The previous poster, another native Spanish speaker was crystal clear about it too. But, of course, you are free to believe whatever you want to believe.
> 
> Yes, it is but it introduces different nuances that I think that are lost in the translation into English. That's why I said that the English had more than one reading. Maybe not so much for the English speaker but for the Spanish speaker. The Spanish speaker may read it as seas or eres getting, therefore, two similar, but different, pictures where an English speaker gets a single picture.


Yes, I must admit.

The subjunctivitis is behaving like the conjunctivitis.



Circunflejo said:


> Is it an opinion of your mom or a fact for your mom?


Well, your question has answered my question (indicative o subjunctive.)

Thanks for the help


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## Artifacs

Expressing information about other person's opinion is an statement, not an opinion.


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## 1012

Artifacs said:


> Expressing information about other person's opinion is an statement, not an opinion.


Noted


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## Circunflejo

1012 said:


> Well, your question has answered my question (indicative o subjunctive.)


Not really. It was just some food for thought. You came with an approach and some ideas that don't work. It's up to you to decide whether you want to change them even if that implies to forget all what you learnt about the subject and to start once again with it with a different approach or if you want to attach yourself to the not-working approach and ideas.


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## 1012

Artifacs said:


> That grammar rule for foreign Spanish students may work in a beginner Spanish level, but it is WRONG in an advanced Spanish level when using statement clauses.
> 
> You may perfectly say: _No digo que no me gusta París._.
> 
> In fact, it is very common the estructure: _No estoy diciendo que + VERB (indicative mode)..._ as an introduction in order to clarify an following statement.


_No estoy diciendo que + VERB (indicative mode)...

Es decir 'los gerundios'._



Circunflejo said:


> Not really. It was just some food for thought. You came with an approach and some ideas that don't work. It's up to you to decide whether you want to change them even if that implies to forget all what you learnt about the subject and to start once again with it with a different approach or if you want to attach yourself to the not-working approach and ideas.


I agree


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## 1012

To sum it up, what I've understood from the above examples is that-

One uses the subjunctive while expressing opinions, & not statements. This is irrespective of what the grammar rules have to say.

Likewise, I would use the subjunctive in the below example also:

I think I am going to live more than one hundred years (only if, it's an opinion.) 

Even though, the rule says- pensar/creer does not not trigger for the subjunctive.


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## elroy

Circunflejo said:


> The Spanish speaker may read it as seas or eres getting, therefore, two similar, but different, pictures where an English speaker gets a single picture.


Can you explain the difference?


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## 1012

elroy said:


> Can you explain the difference?


Yes, of course.

For eg: 1. Let's suppose am hale and hearty, even in my late 90's. I would say- I think am going to live more than one hundred years.

And here, it's a statement. Hence, the indicative

2. The 2nd situation is- am not hale and hearty in my late 90's. I'd say- 
I think am going to live more than one hundred years.

And here, it would be an opinion (rather than a statement.) Hence, the subjunctive

Right?


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## elroy

I was asking @Circinflejo to explain something else, but to respond to your post, you need the indicative in both cases.  This is what the speaker thinks, regardless of how likely it is to happen.


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## Agró

1012 said:


> Yes, of course.
> 
> For eg: 1. Let's suppose am hale and hearty, even in my late 90's. I would say- I think am going to live more than one hundred years.
> 
> And here, it's a statement. Hence, the indicative
> 
> 2. The 2nd situation is- am not hale and hearty in my late 90's. I'd say-
> I think am going to live more than one hundred years.
> 
> And here, it would be an opinion (rather than a statement.) Hence, the subjunctive
> 
> Right?


No. And it's still a statement.


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## 1012

Agró said:


> No. And it's still a statement.


Ok.

How about- I think he loves her, but am not sure


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## Agró

1012 said:


> Ok.
> 
> How about- I think he loves her, but am not sure


Indicative.
Creo/Pienso que la *quiere*.

But
No creo/pienso que la *quiera *(subjunctive).


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## 1012

Agró said:


> Indicative.
> Creo/Pienso que la *quiere*.
> 
> But
> No creo/pienso que la *quiera *(subjunctive).


If you do not mind- can you please share one example of creo que with the subjunctive, please


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## Agró

1012 said:


> If you do not mind- can you please share one example of creo que with the subjunctive, please


No, there's no such thing in my Spanish.


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## 1012

Agró said:


> No, there's no such thing in my Spanish.


Noted


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## Circunflejo

elroy said:


> Can you explain the difference?


It wouldn't be easy for me as I'm just a speaker and not an expert in grammar. I hope it's enough if I say that with eres you would get an _always picture_ and with seas an i_n certain circunstances picture_ although it's way more complex than that.


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## elroy

You don't need to be an expert in grammar to be able to explain the difference.  I'm just asking what the different versions mean to you, as a speaker.  Maybe you can give a couple examples where one would be more suitable than the other, or even where only one would be possible. 

To respond to your post, are you saying that to you, "No dice que eres un buen chico" sounds like "She doesn't say that you are always/generally a good boy," while "No dice que seas un buen chico" sounds like "She doesn't say that you are a good boy / are well-behaved in certain circumstances"?


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## 1012

elroy said:


> You don't need to be an expert in grammar to be able to explain the difference.  I'm just asking what the different versions mean to you, as a speaker.  Maybe you can give a couple examples where one would be more suitable than the other, or even where only one would be possible.
> 
> To respond to your post, are you saying that to you, "No dice que eres un buen chico" sounds like "She doesn't say that you are always/generally a good boy," while "No dice que seas un buen chico" sounds like "She doesn't say that you are a good boy / are well-behaved in certain circumstances"?


Now, this is beyond me. 
Let me prepare myself better, in order to give you an appropriate answer


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## elroy

The question is not for you, it's for @Circunflejo.


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## Circunflejo

elroy said:


> are you saying that to you, "No dice que eres un buen chico" sounds like "She doesn't say that you are always/generally a good boy," while "No dice que seas un buen chico" sounds like "She doesn't say that you are a good boy / are well-behaved in certain circumstances"?


Yes, that would be a possible reading of the subjunctive there (depending on context). But there are many more possible readings like, for example, she doesn't say that you may not be a good boy. There's also a possible subjectivity component in using the subjunctive and there's people willing to speak expressing that subjectivity (like there's also people that talk about themselves in third person instead of in first person) and there's people unwilling to make it and that may be too the only difference between the statement in indicative and the one in subjunctive. As you can see, it doesn't have an easy answer. It depends on context, the speaker and some other factors and lack all of them here.


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## Bevj

Since a new example has been introduced, this thread has strayed too far from the original question and has taken on a more general tone discussing various uses of the subjunctive.  The thread is therefore being closed, in accordance with rule 2 of our guidelines


> *2. Un solo tema por hilo / No se admite la charla.*
> Manténgase dentro del tema del primer mensaje del hilo.



Any problem with a different sentence should be the subject of its own thread.
Thank you to all who have participated but this thread is now being closed.


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