# mother tongue!



## alahay

Would you trade fluency in three languages of your choice for your mother tongue?


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## la reine victoria

alahay said:
			
		

> Would you trade fluency in three languages of your choice for your mother tongue?


 


Never!


La Reine V


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## nichec

alahay said:
			
		

> Would you trade fluency in three languages of your choice for your mother tongue?


 
NO! Because it's too difficult to learn Chinese 

But if I can trade it for Italian, Spanish and French I might think about it


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## maxiogee

Yes, if I can have my mother-tongue as one of my choices!

I hate to rattle anyone's cage, but as an Irishman I have observed the English deal with foreigners with little or no English.
I would not like to have to go through it.
While I feel I would benefit immensely from fluency in, say, French, Spanish and maybe Arabic, I'd loose a lot by losing English.

I'd settle for semi-fluency in Irish and propery mastery of English!


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## Jana337

No.  Sentimental reasons aside, I would have to be compensated MUCH more generously because along with Czech, I would sacrifice the understanding of many Slavic languages. 

Jana


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## Le Pamplemousse

I would definitely do it.  I would trade my English for fluency in Spanish, German, and Arabic.  From there, I think it wouldn't be too hard to get at least a basic understanding of English.


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## cherine

I wouldn't. My mother tongue is part of me, or of my personality, if I gave it away for even 10 other languages I would still feel I'm not a winner in this exchange


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## Hakro

Of course I would!
I suppose that at least one of the new languages would be as fluent as my mother tongue. I expect that I could speak that language at the same level as my present mother tongue.
OK.
Then it's only the question about one "mother tongue" and the two "fluent languages"; which languages?
I'll answer that question later, if somebody's interested.
But after all, in these conditions, no one should say no!
We could find a common language!


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## Cath.S.

Oh yes, I would be quite happy to trade French for really fluent (mother-tongue level of fluency) Chinese and Arabic, plus excellent knowledge of Sanskrit please. I'm pretty confident my dear mother,would approve my wise decision. 

All right, so now where's that genie hiding?


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## tvdxer

No.  I don't want to sound arrogant here, but my English will get me farther than almost any other combination of three languages possible.


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## alahay

egueule said:
			
		

> Oh yes, I would be quite happy to trade French for really fluent (mother-tongue level of fluency) Chinese and Arabic, plus excellent knowledge of Sanskrit please. I'm pretty confident my dear mother,would approve my wise decision.
> 
> All right, so now where's that genie hiding?



No!  je vous en prie! Ne dites pas ca!!!


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## alahay

I believe that people willing to give up their mother tonque are either exophilic (they love other cultures) or indophobic [I think I made this up] (they hate their homeland/culture). I myself would maybe do that for the next life (assuming there shall be one) however I can't imagine not being able to communicate freely and expressively with my most beloved and loving regardless of my exophilia!!!


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## Hakro

Let's also suppose that everybody in this world had the same possibility to choose, every human being in the world.
Which would be the favourite language?
English? Chinese?
Translators wouldn't be needed anymore. Language teachers wouldn't be needed anymore. It would be very easy to speak with anyone...
But it would take thousands of years to get aquainted to different civilizations.
After all, I wouldn't change the present situation because gives us so many wonderful experiences we couldn't have if there were no differencies between languages and cultures.

_Vive la différence!

_


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## BasedowLives

English has a high utility.

so probably not.


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## Heba

No, I would never ever trade my mother tongue for fluency in other languages. Perhaps for sentimental reasons. Also, Arabic is a difficult language, it would be easier for me to work harder on three other languages than to begin learning Arabic from scratch.


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## Laia

Never. Never. Never.

My mother tongue is a very important feature of my identity as a person. It is also part of my personality.

On the other hand, it would be a betray to my mother


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## Cath.S.

alahay said:
			
		

> I believe that people willing to give up their mother tonque are either exophilic (they love other cultures) or indophobic [I think I made this up] (they hate their homeland/culture). I myself would maybe do that for the next life (assuming there shall be one) however I can't imagine not being able to communicate freely and expressively with my most beloved and loving regardless of my exophilia!!!


The truth is I don't happen to think that France is the most important culture in the world, just one of them, and I chose Sanskrit as one of the languages I'd trade my mother tongue for because it is one of the mothers of _all our indo-european languages_ (vedic is another). So I'm trading my mother for one of my great-great-grand mothers!  We're all part of the same insane family anyway, aren't we ?

Still waiting for the genie.


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## Ilmo

Hakro said:
			
		

> Of course I would!
> I suppose that at least one of the new languages would be as fluent as my mother tongue. I expect that I could speak that language at the same level as my present mother tongue.
> quote]
> 
> Hakro, I think you have misunderstood a bit Alahay's question that was:
> *Would you trade fluency in three languages of your choice for your mother tongue?*
> At least I understood that I would get *only fluency* in three languages in return for the *perfect dominion* of my mother tongue, including the inborn sense of lingual correctness. I wouldn't abandon it for any price because it has been acquired through decades of hard work.


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## Roi Marphille

Never!
It's a little miracle that we still speak it nowadays. For us it's very important. It's our heritage. 
Anyway, I'd like to speak many others. I like languages.


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## Cath.S.

> At least I understood that I would get *only fluency* in three languages in return for the *perfect dominion* of my mother tongue,


Oh, that's not what I understood. If that's the case, I might give a different answer.

Alahay, what degree of fluency are you willing to allow the genie to grant us traitors ?


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## alahay

egueule said:
			
		

> Oh, that's not what I understood. If that's the case, I might give a different answer.
> 
> Alahay, what degree of fluency are you willing to allow the genie to grant us traitors ?



Well the level of fluency is very debatable and that's why you should read very well the lease before signing it, however my intention wasn't to trick you, I intended mother-tongue fluency in three languages, so you got it right and the genie is on his way!


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## Cath.S.

alahay said:
			
		

> Well the level of fluency is very debatable and that's why you should read very well the lease before signing it, however my intention wasn't to trick you, I intended mother-tongue fluency in three languages, so you got it right and the genie is on his way!


(utters a deep sigh of relief)
Phew, I thought I'd been had.


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## elroy

Hm.......

Well, now that the conditions have been clarified....

I still say *NO*.

I already have mother-tongue fluency in two languages.  Technically, though, my mother tongue is Arabic, so I guess under your scenario I would receive three other languages instead of Arabic and still keep my mother-tongue fluency in English.  May not sound too shabby, but being a native speaker of Arabic actually means that you speak/understand/have access to at least two very distinct varieties of the language that are different enough to necessitate twice as much work to master as a foreigner.  While I cannot be considered to have "native fluency" in standard Arabic in all senses of the word - I still understand it, can use it, and have a native feel for it - so for all intents and purposes, I'd be giving up two languages, or at least one and a half. 

With all that being said - Arabic is the sixth most spoken language in the world, is quite difficult to master, is desirable nowadays, and is linguistically *so* fascinating that it would be a shame to lose it.  And of course - as others have mentioned - it is part of my identity, a significant one.

Also, I have attained near-native fluency in other languages - and while I would like to improve even further in those languages, I'm more than satisfied with the current state of affairs. 

If I were to pick English as the language to sacrifice - my conclusion would be the same.  Native fluency in English is simply not the same as near-native fluency or advanced fluency; while I would disagree with Tvdxer's assertion that English on its own trumps _any_ combination of three other languages (which I don't find so much arrogant as inaccurate), the importance of English makes native mastery that much more profitable.

BUT if I _had_ to go through with this (which I know is not really what the question was asking), I would choose Polish (my dream language), German (native fluency would be awesome!), and Chinese (I'm simply floored by those able to make sense of rows and rows of pictures!).


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## lampiao

maxiogee said:
			
		

> Yes, if I can have my mother-tongue as one of my choices!


 
Ditto here!


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## Dr. Quizá

I do not have a high steem for my mother tongue. I consider it to be merely circumstancial and it has aspects I like and aspects I don't like. But I think that the deeper knowledge of language, the deeper and better arranged thinking, so I think that to refuse you mother tongue (if it were possible) would "stupidize" you.


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## elroy

Dr. Quizá said:
			
		

> I do not have a high steem for my mother tongue. I consider it to be merely circumstancial and it has aspects I like and aspects I don't like. But I think that the deeper knowledge of language, the deeper and better arranged thinking, so I think that to refuse you mother tongue (if it were possible) would "stupidize" you.


 
How so?  You would trade it for three other languages that offer the type of thinking associated with one's mother tongue.


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## Cath.S.

Having mother tongue fluency in three other languages would make you three times as intelligent as you are today - well, maybe not three times, but it would definitely enhance your thought process.
That's one of the reasons why I can't wait for Alahay's genie to materialize.


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## Dr. Quizá

elroy said:
			
		

> How so?  You would trade it for three other languages that offer the type of thinking associated with one's mother tongue.



I don't think so. Their use may be fast and deep enough in thinking most times, but I think this wouldn't be true always; not as good as a mother tongue with the full mastery of expressivity and vocabulary of it.

Also, I read some time ago that bilingual people have a ability in language structure undestanding, but monolingual people have a richer expressivity. I wonder how much sense does this make.

Three differents languages should make richer and wider the variety of concepts you know (and maybe more as more different are these languages) but I doubt that language switching or normal and frequent use of inserted concepts of a different language might be as effective.

Well, all this considerating "fluency" a level below "mother tongue".


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## SpiceMan

Nah, I rather study. That's what I like about languages, to discover them little by little.


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## elroy

Dr. Quizá said:
			
		

> I don't think so. Their use may be fast and deep enough in thinking most times, but I think this wouldn't be true always; not as good as a mother tongue with the full mastery of expressivity and vocabulary of it.
> 
> Also, I read some time ago that bilingual people have a ability in language structure undestanding, but monolingual people have a richer expressivity. I wonder how much sense does this make.
> 
> Three differents languages should make richer and wider the variety of concepts you know (and maybe more as more different are these languages) but I doubt that language switching or normal and frequent use of inserted concepts of a different language might be as effective.
> 
> Well, all this considerating "fluency" a level below "mother tongue".


 
Alahay specified "mother-tongue fluency" (post #21).

As for what you read about monolinguals' having a "richer expressivity" than bilinguals, I would take that with a huge grain of salt.  I don't think that the richness of my expressivity in either Arabic or English is compromised because I'm bilingual.  I argue that perceived inferiority in either language is an illusion that results from the bilingual's knowledge of collocations in both languages that cannot be easily translated into the other - something that is unbeknownst to monolinguals.  I would say that if I were monolingual in either Arabic or English with the same proficiency that I currently possess in the respective language, my expressivity would be just as rich as it is now - maybe even a little less rich - but certainly not richer.


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## la reine victoria

All mother tongue languages lose a great deal of nuance in translation.

Imagine having to read Shakespeare via the internet translator service!
  



La Reine V


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## Ilmo

alahay said:
			
		

> Well the level of fluency is very debatable and that's why you should read very well the lease before signing it, however my intention wasn't to trick you, I intended mother-tongue fluency in three languages, so you got it right and the genie is on his way!


 
Certainly, Alahay, it is necessary to read the small print thoroughly before signing the lease, because some of us had understood the offer in the way that the mother tongue could be selected as one of the three "fluent" languages. And now you say that barter is one mother-tongue fuency for three similar fluencies, in three different languages. I understand that one of them could not be the present mother tongue, like some had understood it - in that case you would just get two new languages with mother-tongue fluency for nothing.

By the way, I assert that the whole idea of having mother-tongue fluency in three languages is almost an impossibility. I had once a flash card program made for U.S. college students - "the next 4000 words after their average vocabulary of 7000 words". It is a long way to the million-word vocabulary of the English language.


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## alahay

Ilmo said:
			
		

> Certainly, Alahay, it is necessary to read the small print thoroughly before signing the lease, because some of us had understood the offer in the way that the mother tongue could be selected as one of the three "fluent" languages. And now you say that barter is one mother-tongue fuency for three similar fluencies, in three different languages. I understand that one of them could not be the present mother tongue, like some had understood it - in that case you would just get two new languages with mother-tongue fluency for nothing.


Exactly! you can't have a trade without a trade-off and in that case it's your mother tongue. For those who answered "yes, with one of them being my mother-tongue" I guess they where answering a different question like "how would you like to be granted fluency in two languages of your choice?" to which I don't think any primate would say no! 

Just ignore them!


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## Dr. Quizá

elroy said:
			
		

> Alahay specified "mother-tongue fluency" (post #21).
> 
> As for what you read about monolinguals' having a "richer expressivity" than bilinguals, I would take that with a huge grain of salt.  I don't think that the richness of my expressivity in either Arabic or English is compromised because I'm bilingual.  I argue that perceived inferiority in either language is an illusion that results from the bilingual's knowledge of collocations in both languages that cannot be easily translated into the other - something that is unbeknownst to monolinguals.  I would say that if I were monolingual in either Arabic or English with the same proficiency that I currently possess in the respective language, my expressivity would be just as rich as it is now - maybe even a little less rich - but certainly not richer.



I just don't think one can be as good practicing something 50% of the time as somebody who practices it all the time when in the same circumstances. One can be near, though. Of course, a bilingual philologist must have a higher language level than an illiterate every hour, every day, driving a bus or doing a handstand 

Anyway, the answers in this thread would be way different if the original question were "do you have any special esteem for your mother tongue?" as it seems now it was the intention.


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## elroy

Dr. Quizá said:
			
		

> I just don't *think* one can be as good practicing something 50% of the time as somebody who practices it all the time when in the same circumstances. One can be near, though. Of course, a bilingual philologist must have a higher language level than an illiterate every hour, every day, driving a bus or doing a handstand


 
You may not *think* so, but facts and research suggest otherwise. For active bilinguals (those who use the two languages simultaneously), codes in both languages are activated to a certain degree _at all times_, such that the "50-50" scenario you propose is not applicable. Just because I am using English right now does not mean that my proficiency in Arabic is declining.


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## Cereth

Never!, spanish is quite difficult... i believe english is so easy to learn and understand.... although right now i´m studying japanese and i´m going crazy about it ...japanese is only useful in Japan...spanish is useful in almost all Latinoamerica , and we can have little chats with brazilian and portuguese people even though we don´t speak portuguese...

whatta wonderful language!


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## spanish_wonderer

do you mean _mother*'s* _tongue? _or mother_ tongue?

just kidding....

i wouldnt because most of my friends dont know their native language and if i do, i feel special!!!! =]


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## Hakro

Let's imagine what would happen if this 'trading' really were true and the same possibility were offered to all the people in the world, not only to WR members who have already a good knowledge of foreign languages.

Probably 99% would say 'yes' and they would choose English as one of the three languages because it's the most popular international language. If an English-speaker would accept this trading s/he would lose the language that had just become even ten times more important than before - so they would of course say 'no'.

The final result: The present English-speakers would be a bit handicapped because the rest of the world speaks fluently not only English but two other languages, too.


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## Laia

Hakro said:
			
		

> Probably 99% would say 'yes' and they would choose English as one of the three languages because it's the most popular international language. If an English-speaker would accept this trading s/he would lose the language that had just become even ten times more important than before - so they would of course say 'no'.


 
I bet this wouldn't happen. At least, not a 99% of forer@s would do it.


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## alahay

Hakro said:
			
		

> The final result: The present English-speakers would be a bit handicapped because the rest of the world speaks fluently not only English but two other languages, too.


imagine chinese speaking fluent english and english speaking fluent chinese...  Remember however that nobody is obliged to trade 

Now that was an interesting scenario!

The trade seems unfair with respect to native speakers of the most spoken language which will even become more spoken as non speakers of the language trade their native languages for it....


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## Hakro

alahay said:
			
		

> The trade seems unfair with respect to native speakers of the most spoken language which will even become more spoken as non speakers of the language trade their native languages for it....


To make it fair I'm ready to give up one of the three languages if the English-speakers can keep their mother tongue and get just one new fluent language. OK?


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## Dr. Quizá

elroy said:
			
		

> You may not *think* so, but facts and research suggest otherwise.  For active bilinguals (those who use the two languages simultaneously), codes in both languages are activated to a certain degree _at all times_, such that the "50-50" scenario you propose is not applicable.  Just because I am using English right now does not mean that I am my proficiency in Arabic is declining.



I don't see a high advantage of suggestions over thoughts  I've noticed that a friend of mine who lives in England in a totally English enviroment (but for communication with Spanish friends and family) writes worse every time he emails and he hasn't mastered English yet. My sister lived in Germany for about 8 years and when she returned to Spain she speaked slower and clumsier. I took her a while to regain her full fluency in Spanish.

So it seems the use of two languages could force a "competition" (and not a "cooperation") between them. Actually I was worried because I was applying to a job in England and I wondered how was this going to affect my Spanish. 
OK, Spanish isn't the easiest language ever "made", but it isn't the most difficult and I found curious that some "maintenance" seemed to be necessary at that level.

I've read some days ago in this forums that there are some languages that are mostly forgotten in just a few months if they're not practiced (I think that Hungarian was one of the said languages).


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## Hakro

Dr. Quizá said:
			
		

> I don't see a high advantage of suggestions over thoughts. I've noticed that a friend of mine who lives in England in a totally English environment (but for communication with Spanish friends and family) writes worse every time he emails and he hasn't mastered English yet. My sister lived in Germany for about 8 years and when she returned to Spain she spoke slower and clumsier. I took her a while to regain her full fluency in Spanish.


 I have seen a similar change in Finns who went to work in Sweden: They forgot Finnish but didn't learn Swedish.

But I think that a 'bilingual' person is someone who has learned two languages simultaneously in his/her childhood. For example most of the Swedish speaking Finns have learned to speak Finnish at the same time as Swedish. Most of them speak both languages equally and they don't forget the other language even when speaking only one of the languages for a long time. There are bilingual authors who can write high-class text in both languages.

If the second language is learned later - in school etc. - the situation probably is as you described.


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## Dr. Quizá

I agree, I just was trying to point that there are cases that prove that two languages may interfere each other because you can't use one of them all time (or maybe both).

BTW:

_I have seen a similar change in Finns who went to work in Sweden: They forgot Finnish but didn't learn Swedish._

Finnish and Hungarian are similar, aren't they? Then that matches my last remark. Are they so complex?


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## Hakro

Dr. Quizá said:
			
		

> Finnish and Hungarian are similar, aren't they? Then that matches my last remark. Are they so complex?


Sure, Finnish and Hungarian are complex languages to learn for a foreigner, but not so complex as a mother language. I believe this phenomenon is similar with any language, complex or not. (But I have no proof for it.)


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## elroy

Dr. Quizá said:
			
		

> I don't see a high advantage of suggestions over thoughts  I've noticed that a friend of mine who lives in England in a totally English enviroment (but for communication with Spanish friends and family) writes worse every time he emails and he hasn't mastered English yet. My sister lived in Germany for about 8 years and when she returned to Spain she speaked slower and clumsier. I took her a while to regain her full fluency in Spanish.
> 
> So it seems the use of two languages could force a "competition" (and not a "cooperation") between them. Actually I was worried because I was applying to a job in England and I wondered how was this going to affect my Spanish.
> OK, Spanish isn't the easiest language ever "made", but it isn't the most difficult and I found curious that some "maintenance" seemed to be necessary at that level.
> 
> I've read some days ago in this forums that there are some languages that are mostly forgotten in just a few months if they're not practiced (I think that Hungarian was one of the said languages).


 
Conclusions suggested by _research_ are far more credible than speculation.

I would not consider your friend or your sister bilingual. 

Perhaps we're talking about two different things. As I specified in one my earlier posts, I consider those bilinguals _who use the two languages simultaneously_ not to be at a disadvantage.

What further evidence do you need than my own experience - a bilingual whose proficiency in English easily rivals that of any native speaker, and whose proficiency in Arabic is slightly inferior but certainly comparable to that of native speakers? 

(and I've been living in the US and Europe for about four years)


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## Brioche

Lose my mother tongue and not be able to communicate with my spouse,  my children, my parents, my closest relatives, the friends I've had for years?

Never.


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## Dr. Quizá

elroy said:
			
		

> Conclusions suggested by _research_ are far more credible than speculation.
> 
> I would not consider your friend or your sister bilingual.
> 
> Perhaps we're talking about two different things. As I specified in one my earlier posts, I consider those bilinguals _who use the two languages simultaneously_ not to be at a disadvantage.
> 
> What further evidence do you need than my own experience - a bilingual whose proficiency in English easily rivals that of any native speaker, and whose proficiency in Arabic is slightly inferior but certainly comparable to that of native speakers?
> 
> (and I've been living in the US and Europe for about four years)



The point is, if there were forgetting *even* their mother tongue (because the new one runs over it), how can we expect three new acquired tongues not to interfere each other? And you should consider different "fluent" and "mother tongue" if you you don't consider my sister the same as a Spanish-German birth biligual speaker.


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## Ilmo

Brioche said:
			
		

> Lose my mother tongue and not be able to communicate with my spouse, my children, my parents, my closest relatives, the friends I've had for years?
> 
> Never.


 
That's a very good point, Brioche, and I totally agree. 
I guess that many of those who were eager for the trade-in did not take into consideration that fact. 

Alahay's idea was that after the barter you would be obliged to learn your original mother tongue anew, with all the difficulties you know so well it would bring along. Some apparently assumed that all the people would be offered a similar chance and that they would make principally a similar selection as to the languages. 

For instance Hakro wrote:
_"Let's imagine what would happen if this 'trading' really were true and the same possibility were offered to all the people in the world, not only to WR members who have already a good knowledge of foreign languages."_

At least I understood that there were only one "genie of the bottle" and that the possibility to trade-in the mother tongue were strictly personal, not concerning any other population or language group in the world.


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## Roi Marphille

by the way: 
*Today* is the International Mother Language Day. Link here.


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## elroy

Dr. Quizá said:
			
		

> The point is, if there were forgetting *even* their mother tongue (because the new one runs over it), how can we expect three new acquired tongues not to interfere each other? And you should consider different "fluent" and "mother tongue" if you you don't consider my sister the same as a Spanish-German birth biligual speaker.


 
I suppose we are indeed seeing things in different ways. 

Alahay specified *mother-tongue fluency*, and that to me means that the new languages would not be *acquired*. Obviously, you can forget or lose languages that you *learn* if you do not practice them enough - but if you *grew up* speaking two different languages and *continue to use them simultaneously*, you are *not* at a disadvantage.

At any rate, you are free to continue espousing your hypothetical theory. I'm just glad my real-life experience disproves it.


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## Dr. Quizá

The only way to mantain two languages at the same level is being in a totally bilingual enviroment where both languages can be practiced in the equivalent styles, with the same kind of people, in the same cirumstances, in all situations, with a diversity of accents and jargons and so on. Otherwise limiting that things to isolated ones will put one language over the other or split their use to different cases and lead to a vicious circle of gradual language erosion of the became secondary language of or both of them in the worst case. This is, for example, to limit the use of one of them to family and friends and the use of the other to formal speech because of the different efficiency of them in different fields.


And even under ideal circumstances my real-life experience in hearing "isn't that the same word in Spanish? Really? I thought it was... How do you say it in Spanish then?" from bilingual born speakers that actually live in fully bilingual enviroments proves there are some interference. In some cases this is not frequent (for example, Spanish/Catalonian bilingual speakers) but in other cases the crossover is very noticeable (like in the case of some Spanish/English bilingual people from the USA that I know).

It seems you have taken the original question just as is, but after a deeper sight I think that it makes not sense or is unviable and shouldn't be taken beyond completely hypothetical situations.


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## banni

I think language if one part of your culture, of your personality. You are proud of it.

My mother tongue is Vietnamese. Even my language is not popular, only we speak that. However, as i have found out, if you can speak Vietnamese well, it's not difficult for you to pronounce others. I have tried with chinese, french, spanish, russian... not yet with arabic  

I think even if you trade your language with three others and if you are interested in language, you will study your mother toungue - before you traded one day  

If you love your country, your culture, i dont think it's worth to trade for any language 

My answer is no - I love my mom and the language my mom gave to me.

 In addition, you can study to have the languages you want to trade


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## DDT

The trade doesn't look that interesting...my English, my French (and a few other languages I won't mention) are not that perfect - pretty far from being so    - but that's the big deal to me: I am very curious so I prefer to learn through my mistakes, I love challenges     This approach includes foreign languages.
Moreover I adore my mother tongue   

DDT


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## elroy

Dr. Quizá said:
			
		

> The only way to mantain two languages at the same level is being in a totally bilingual enviroment where both languages can be practiced in the equivalent styles, with the same kind of people, in the same cirumstances, in all situations, with a diversity of accents and jargons and so on. Otherwise limiting that things to isolated ones will put one language over the other or split their use to different cases and lead to a vicious circle of gradual language erosion of the became secondary language of or both of them in the worst case. This is, for example, to limit the use of one of them to family and friends and the use of the other to formal speech because of the different efficiency of them in different fields.
> 
> 
> And even under ideal circumstances my real-life experience in hearing "isn't that the same word in Spanish? Really? I thought it was... How do you say it in Spanish then?" from bilingual born speakers that actually live in fully bilingual enviroments proves there are some interference. In some cases this is not frequent (for example, Spanish/Catalonian bilingual speakers) but in other cases the crossover is very noticeable (like in the case of some Spanish/English bilingual people from the USA that I know).
> 
> It seems you have taken the original question just as is, but after a deeper sight I think that it makes not sense or is unviable and shouldn't be taken beyond completely hypothetical situations.


 
I was not saying that bilinguals can maintain equal proficiency in both languages; in fact, in most cases they know one language better than the other. What I was saying is that bilinguals know at least *one* of the two languages to a degree comparable to that of monolinguals.

As for your second point - I agree that the situation is hypothetical. However, should one  in fact possess native fluency in three languages, there is no reason to categorically assume that that person would be handicaped in each individual language as compared to monolingual natives of that language.

Just as there are many factors that determine language proficiency for monolinguals who speak a foreign language (such as your sister and friend), there are at least as many factors that determine how well bilinguals command their respective languages.


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## AlfonsoHKG

I don't care, I speak 6 languages and all in just one direction -> MAKE MONEY


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## Dr. Quizá

elroy said:
			
		

> I was not saying that bilinguals can maintain equal proficiency in both languages; in fact, in most cases they know one language better than the other.  What I was saying is that bilinguals know at least *one* of the two languages to a degree comparable to that of monolinguals.
> 
> As for your second point - I agree that the situation is hypothetical.  However, should one to in fact possess native fluency in three languages, there is no reason to categorically assume that that person would be handicaped in each individual language as compared to monolingual natives of that language.
> 
> Just as there are many factors that determine language proficiency for monolinguals who speak a foreign language (such as your sister and friend), there are at least as many factors that determine how well bilinguals command their respective languages.



I still don't think so, but it seems we're walking in circles, aren't we?


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## elroy

Dr. Quizá said:
			
		

> I still don't think so, but it seems we're walking in circles, aren't we?


 
Let me put it another way.

Are you telling me that you think *every monolingual native speaker of English *knows English better than me, and that *every monolingual native speaker of Arabic* knows Arabic better than me?

If your answer is yes, I have nothing more to add to this discussion.


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## Dr. Quizá

Noup, I said that most monolingual speakers that have at least the same cultural level and interest in language than you should have a slightly higher mastery of it.


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## JazzByChas

I would probably add three languages to my mother tongue. My mother tongue, for better or worse, is English. And at this moment in time, English is spoken all around the world. Now I will say, that English could use a real overhaul, especially in the spelling, which is atrocious.  Needs to be more consistent.

I would also like to learn an East Asian language, (Japanese, Chinese, Korean), a European language (French, Spanish), and an Eastern Eurpean language (Russian, Polish, Slavic, etc) and alright, I am passing my quota, but an Middle Eastern language (Arabic, Hebrew, Greek, etc.)

Real decisive, aren't I?


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## elroy

Dr. Quizá said:
			
		

> Noup, I said that most monolingual speakers that have at least the same cultural level and interest in language than you should have a slightly higher mastery of it.


 
I don't recall that caveat.  

Either way, your statements continue to be hypothetical and therefore serve little purpose as an explanation of reality.  Sure, there are English and Arabic monolinguals who know their language better than I know the respective language.  But I'm sure there are also monolingual speakers of Spanish who know Spanish better than you (or vice versa, you probably know Spanish better than many other monolinguals). 

Why should the disparity in my case be attributed to my bilingualism, and the one in yours to other factors?


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## Dr. Quizá

Because I still haven't found a monolingual Spanish speaker who writes (writing shows way better mistakes in Spanish) it better than me without having a higher cultural level than mine but I do know bilingual Spanish speakers that actually have higher cultural and academic level than me but have way worse Spanish. So it may be a hypothetical statement but its basement is praxis.


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## elroy

Dr. Quizá said:
			
		

> Because I still haven't found a monolingual Spanish speaker who writes (writing shows way better mistakes in Spanish) it better than me without having a higher cultural level than mine but I do know bilingual Spanish speakers that actually have higher cultural and academic level than me but have way worse Spanish. So it may be a hypothetical statement but its basement is praxis.


 
That may have been your personal experience, but that does not mean it applies to every case of bilingualism.

Your theory is more than hypothetical: it is an unfair oversimplification of one of the most complex linguistic phenomena that continues to baffle linguists and researchers.  How do you explain the comment by Hakro several posts ago about bilingual writers who produced brilliant works in both languages?  How do you explain that I, as a thirteen-year-old whose only exposure to English was at the American school I attended in Jerusalem (such that my "academic and cultural level" was probably quite low) was constantly told by _native speakers_ I met in Jerusalem (I had never left the country) that I spoke and wrote English better than most native speakers?

I could go on and on, but the point is that there is _no_ reliable correlation between bilingualism and language proficiency.  There have been too many cases to the contrary.


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## Dr. Quizá

elroy said:
			
		

> That may have been your personal experience, but that does not mean it applies to every case of bilingualism.
> 
> Your theory is more than hypothetical: it is an unfair oversimplification of one of the most complex linguistic phenomena that continues to baffle linguists and researchers.



Well, I could have said the same to you some posts ago and it seems those linguists and researchers have more doubts than you  



> How do you explain the comment by Hakro several posts ago about bilingual writers who produced brilliant works in both languages?



Even I'd write in English better than I usually do in Spanish if I had enough time and an editor to supervise me. What would that prove?



> How do you explain that I, as a thirteen-year-old whose only exposure to English was at the American school I attended in Jerusalem (such that my "academic and cultural level" was probably quite low) was constantly told by _native speakers_ I met in Jerusalem (I had never left the country) that I spoke and wrote English better than most native speakers?



Wait, wait, wait. Are you talking about grammar, vocabulary, syntax and other aspects of formal language in an academical enviroment? Where is the deep cultural immersion in that language's natural enviroment needed to master slangs, the wide spectrum of social styles, the subtle but deep engaging of thinking to the regional way of speaking and so on in a foreign country during lessons time?  
No acrimony, but I can't consider that at the level of "mother tongue". I'm sorry, but that lacks of the intensity, depth, proximity and variety of references of the development of a language in its natural enviroment.

There lots of things you can learn there, but there are other things that you cannot. There are some foreign schools in Spain too, but I've never heard pupils from them to have the language used in lessons as mother tongue even if they use it much better than I use English.



Anyway, it seems you took I said bilingual people speak like if they were retarded or illiterate or something like that and I've never wrote nor suggested that (there's a light-year between that and "slightly").

But since there is no new ray of light in this conversation for some "laps" ago I actually have no interest in completing more laps because there is no race to win. I could speech just for speech's sake, but I don't like how you are taking this thread. I'm sorry if I said something you disliked or I didn't express properly since English is not my strong point, but it seems clear we're not convincing each other and that this can't end better than is right now.


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## elroy

Dr. Quizá said:
			
		

> Well, I could have said the same to you some posts ago and it seems those linguists and researchers have more doubts than you



By "baffling" I meant "intriguing," "fascinating," "complex," "intricate" - that is, much more multifaceted than you make it out to be. 



> Even I'd write in English better than I usually do in Spanish if I had enough time and an editor to supervise me. What would that prove?



That would prove that you had a great editor! 



> Wait, wait, wait. Are you talking about grammar, vocabulary, syntax and other aspects of formal language in an academical enviroment? Where is the deep cultural immersion in that language's natural enviroment needed to master slangs, the wide spectrum of social styles, the subtle but deep engaging of thinking to the regional way of speaking and so on in a foreign country during lessons time?
> No acrimony, but I can't consider that at the level of "mother tongue". I'm sorry, but that lacks of the intensity, depth, proximity and variety of references of the development of a language in its natural enviroment.
> 
> There lots of things you can learn there, but there are other things that you cannot. There are some foreign schools in Spain too, but I've never heard pupils from them to have the language used in lessons as mother tongue even if they use it much better than I use English.



No!  That's not what it was like!

I said in my first post that I have _mother-tongue fluency_ in English.  That includes all of the nuances and subtleties that you mention.   I learned English in exactly the same way as I learned my mother tongue, Arabic - through exposure and immersion, not through a set of formal rules about vocabulary and syntax.

I do not know what the foreign schools in Spain are like, but I do know one thing: I speak and have always spoken English on a first-language basis.



> Anyway, it seems you took I said bilingual people speak like if they were retarded or illiterate or something like that and I've never wrote nor suggested that (there's a light-year between that and "slightly").



There's also a light year of difference between your "slightly" and reality.



> But since there is no new ray of light in this conversation for some "laps" ago I actually have no interest in completing more laps because there is no race to win. I could speech just for speech's sake, but I don't like how you are taking this thread. I'm sorry if I said something you disliked or I didn't express properly since English is not my strong point, but it seems clear we're not convincing each other and that this can't end better than is right now.



I cannot be convinced by unfounded statements that do not reflect the reality of my personal situation, something I know to be true.  Why _you_ remain unconvinced after countless examples and pieces of evidence is a mystery to me.


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## Cath.S.

DDT said:
			
		

> The trade doesn't look that interesting...my English, my French (and a few other languages I won't mention) are not that perfect - pretty far from being so  - but that's the big deal to me: I am very curious so I prefer to learn through my mistakes, I love challenges  This approach includes foreign languages.
> Moreover I adore my mother tongue
> 
> DDT


Hi DDT, nowhere do I see that there would be a subsequent ban on learning new languages after the deal?
So you could still enjoy learning - and still make plenty of mistakes, since that's what you prefer!


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## DDT

egueule said:
			
		

> Hi DDT, nowhere do I see that there would be a subsequent ban on learning new languages after the deal?
> So you could still enjoy learning - and still make plenty of mistakes, since that's what you prefer!



  ​
...well, I cannot think of my karma if I ever betrayed Dante & co.     (I confess I added this just not to post a full off topic answer with only 3 stick out tongue smileys)


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## Cath.S.

DDT said:
			
		

> ​
> 
> 
> ...well, I cannot think of my karma if I ever betrayed Dante & co.  (I confess I added this just not to post a full off topic answer with only 3 stick out tongue smileys)


  ​Whereas I would be brave (or foolish) enough to betray Voltaire _et Cie_.
(I confess I added this just not to post a full off topic answer with only 3 grinning smileys )


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