# clown, brownie, etc



## clamor

Hello  
How is *-ow-* pronounced in English loans in your language(s)?

For instance, while it stands in English for /aʊ/ in these examples, in French (of France) we prononce these words with /u/ :

_Cl*ow*n_ is /klun/ while _clone_ "clone" is /klon/.
_Br*ow*nie_ is /bʁuni/ or, less commonly, /bʁoni/.
While in the cartoon they say /mogli/, _M*ow*glie_ is pronounced /mugli/.

I'd be interested to know how they are pronounced when borrowed into other languages (or in other dialects of French).


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## Yendred

clamor said:


> _Br*ow*nie_ is /bʁuni/ or, less commonly, /bʁoni/


I only know /bʁ*o*ni/, as indicated by the Wiktionary:
brownie — Wiktionnaire
Where did you hear /bʁuni/?


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## clamor

Here (in the South-East) almost everyone pronounces it /bʁuni/, including me when I was a child.


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## Dymn

*Spain*: /au̯/

Unlike other foreign accents, diphthongs aren't monophthongized when adapting Anglicisms.


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## clamor

Even in Mowgli? I ask, because many English adaptations retain the pronounciation with /oʊ/ instead of Kipling's /aʊ/.


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## Dymn

Nobody would say "Maugli". "Mogli" and "Mougli" are possible pronunciations.


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## Welsh_Sion

I must say that I recall hearing /bʁuni/ for the little cake when I was teaching Welsh and English in Ile de France 1997-2001 from native French speakers, even when speaking French, e.g. /ʒɛm dɛ: bʁunis/*. It could be of course that they were so pronouncing in order to avoid 'an English accent' and to make my job more difficult! 

/au/ in English borrowings in Welsh, is written as <ow>: '*brown*', '*clown*'. The pronunciation in Welsh is however, /ᴐu/. This diphthong also occurs in native words, as in, '*rhown*' (let us give), '*down*' (we will come), and is again /ᴐu/.

*Please note: My phonology of French may be imperfect, forgive me. Go by what I said in normal prose not the IPA, if I'm wrong.


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## apmoy70

clamor said:


> Hello
> How is *-ow-* pronounced in English loans in your language(s)?
> 
> For instance, while it stands in English for /aʊ/ in these examples, in French (of France) we prononce these words with /u/ :
> 
> _Cl*ow*n_ is /klun/ while _clone_ "clone" is /klon/.
> _Br*ow*nie_ is /bʁuni/ or, less commonly, /bʁoni/.
> While in the cartoon they say /mogli/, _M*ow*glie_ is pronounced /mugli/.
> 
> I'd be interested to know how they are pronounced when borrowed into other languages (or in other dialects of French).


In Greek it's /au̯/ or /ou̯/:
*«Κλόουν»* [ˈklo̞͜un] (masc. indecl.)
*«Μπράουνι»* [ˈbra͜uni] (neut. indecl.), althouɡh it's rarely used.
Kipling's Mowgli is *«Μόγλης»* [ˈmo̞ɣlis̠] (masc.) in the Greek translation, so, no diphthonɡ.


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## Awwal12

Rus. клоун ['kɫɔ.ʊn] (an old and, apparently, chiefly orthographical loan)
Rus. брауни ['bɾa.ʊnʲɪ] (a recent regular loan which most people may be even unaware of)


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## Penyafort

Dymn said:


> *Spain*: /au̯/
> 
> Unlike other foreign accents, diphthongs aren't monophthongized when adapting Anglicisms.


It might be a personal impression, but I'd say that /au/, /o/ and /ou/ are all possible outcomes, maybe the first being more natural in younger generations.

I've heard both _brauni _and _bro(u)ni_, and _claun _and _cloun_ (less, because we don't use this anglicism that much). But I've only heard Mogli, probably because it's an old character.

I've heard both in _música co(u)ntri_ vs _música cauntri_ (despite the latter being a mistake English learners usually commit). But I've only heard _cauboy_, although I guess some older people may say _coubói _(when they didn't use _vaquero_, of course).

In the case of newer things, since they're mostly said by young people, it tends to be /au/. I mean things like wow, outfit, flower power, and the like.

Those in which ow is /ou/ seem to be always /o/, though. Like _un bol_. (Or _un gol_, despite the different spelling in English)


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## Dymn

Well it's all a mess, but I agree _brownie _is often pronounced /brouni/, especially by people who don't speak English (and who rarely use this word anyway). /o/ is not so common though.



Penyafort said:


> Those in which ow is /ou/ seem to be always /o/, though.


_Bol _is a very old Anglicism. As for _Mowgli_, probably most people have never read it spelled out so they simplify it as /mogli/. But nowadays, I think nobody would skip the w in _low cost_, for example.



Dymn said:


> Unlike other foreign accents, diphthongs aren't monophthongized when adapting Anglicisms.


I should note this is only a general rule, e.g. in _okay_ is pronounced /okei/, monophthongizing the first vowel, but keeping the second one as a diphthong, unlike French people and (some) Germans who pronounce /oke/.


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## clamor

Penyafort said:


> But I've only heard _cauboy_, although I guess some older people may say _coubói _(when they didn't use _vaquero_, of course).


Oh yes, here we don't say */kubɔj/, but /kobɔj/.
I found another example where we pronounce _-ow-_ as /u/ but which is pronounced with /oʊ/ in English - bowling /buling/.


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## Awwal12

Regarding cowboys: in Russian they represent the third variant.


Awwal12 said:


> Rus. клоун ['kɫɔ.ʊn]
> Rus. брауни ['bɾa.ʊnʲɪ]


Rus. ковбой [kɐ'vboɪ̯]
(another relatively old and chiefly orthographical loan; please note that [ɐ] here is just an unavoidable effect of the Russian phonological rules - orthographically the vowel is "o").


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## apmoy70

To us, it's *«καουμπόι»* [ˌka͜u.ɱˈbo̞͜i] (masc.) or [ˌka͜u.ˈbo̞͜i] (masc.).
And, _bowling_ is *«μπόουλιγκ/μπόουλινγκ»* [ˈbo̞͜u.liŋɡ] (neut. indecl.).


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## clamor

apmoy70 said:


> *«καουμπόι»* [ˌka͜u.ɱˈbo̞͜i] (masc.)


A bit off-topic, but don't you find it strange that *μπ *is pronounced with a bilabial stop [b ] but it's preceded by a labiodental nasal [ɱ]?


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## apmoy70

clamor said:


> A bit off-topic, but don't you find it strange that *μπ *is pronounced with a bilabial stop [b ] but it's preceded by a labiodental nasal [ɱ]?


Personally I don't, because that's how I and many of my relatives and friends (above the age of 35-40) pronounce it.
The younger generation has got rid of the nasal, it's closer to a straight /b/


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## clamor

apmoy70 said:


> Personally I don't, because that's how I and many of my relatives and friends (above the age of 35-40) pronounce it.
> The younger generation has got rid of the nasal, it's closer to a straight /b/



oh ok, I just found it strange (and hard to pronounce) that the nasal doesn't have the same place of articulation than the following stop.


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## apmoy70

clamor said:


> oh ok, I just found it strange (and hard to pronounce) that the nasal doesn't have the same place of articulation than the following stop.


Don't pronounce it then!
It's dying out anyways


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## jucami

Yendred said:


> I only know /bʁ*o*ni/, as indicated by the Wiktionary:
> brownie — Wiktionnaire
> Where did you hear /bʁuni/?


My French and Belgian friends say /bʁuni/, and I am always amused to hear them pronounce Scouts (Boy Scouts) with the same vowel, which sounds to me like the English word "scoots."


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## Yendred

jucami said:


> I am always amused to hear them pronounce Scouts (Boy Scouts) with the same vowel, which sounds to me like the English word "scoots."


Yes that's it  We say [skut].
The thing is we tend to pronounce "_ow_" /o/ (like we traditionally do with _cowboy, show_, etc.), and "ou" /u/ (since it is a usual French syllable).
_clown _/klun/ is an exception.


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## Armas

Brownie is pronounced ['brɑuni] in Finnish, the ɑu is a diphthong, and cowboy is pronounced similarly.
Clown became _klovni_ in Finnish and is pronounced ['kloʋni]. It looks like one of those older loans from English the pronunciation of which was based solely on how it is spelled.


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## clamor

Yendred said:


> Yes that's it  We say [skut].
> The thing is we tend to pronounce "_ow_" /o/ (like we traditionally do with _cowboy, show_, etc.), and "ou" /u/ (since it is a usual French syllable).
> _clown _/klun/ is an exception.


As we saw on this thread there are several exceptions (clown, Mowgli, bowling...)


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## clamor

apmoy70 said:


> Don't pronounce it then!
> It's dying out anyways


Yes I was just intrigued by that. Are you sure it is truly a labiodental nasal? If it's the case, Greek would be a very rare language having it outside of assimilation cases


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## apmoy70

clamor said:


> Yes I was just intrigued by that. Are you sure it is truly a labiodental nasal? If it's the case, Greek would be a very rare language having it outside of assimilation cases


Yep, it definitely is /ɱ/


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## apmoy70

Awwal12 said:


> Rus. клоун ['kɫɔ.ʊn] (an old and, apparently, chiefly orthographical loan)
> Rus. брауни ['bɾa.ʊnʲɪ] (a recent regular loan which most people may be even unaware of)


Isn't клоун, [ˈkɫɔ͜ʊn] instead of ['kɫɔ.ʊn]? Isn't /ou̯/ a diphthonɡ?


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## Zareza

*Romanian*

for* clown -> clovn* /klovn/ and *clown* /'kla.un/
for *Mowglie -> Mowglie* /ˈmaʊɡli/
for* country *music* -> *muzică *country */'kan.tri/
for *cowboy -> cowboy* /'ka͜u.boj/
for *goal -> gol* /gol/
for *ok* *->* *ok* /o'kej/
for *happy end* *->* *happy-end* /'hepi.end/
for* bowling -> bowling* /'ba͜u.ling/
for *show -> show* /ʃow/


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## Welsh_Sion

What is 'happy end', @Zareza? A form of Romglish?


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## Zareza

I wondered, too.
In the Romanian dictionary it is written like this (I translated the dictionary entry):

*happy-end, happy-enduri* (noun) - End, happy epilogue of (action) of a dramatic, cinematic work, etc. /'hepi.end/ - from Engl. happy-end[ing]

There's something wrong with _happy end_ word, isn't there?


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## Welsh_Sion

The only construction I know is something like, "the story had a happy ending". (That is, "And they all lived happily ever after.").

I don't think anything else works and the dictionary may be straying too far from the original English (no hyphen, in any case.)


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## Zareza

I've found another piece of information: _happy-end_ in Romanian is not taken directly from English, but through French as a pseudo-anglicism.


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## jucami

Zareza said:


> I found another piece of information: _happy-end_ in Romanian is not taken directly from English, but through French.


Indeed, a film by this name (set in France) came out a few years ago. As an English speaker, for whom the expression is definitely "happy end*ing*," the title made me cringe...! But given how horribly we butcher many Gallicisms in English, I suppose it's only fair.


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## Awwal12

apmoy70 said:


> Isn't клоун, [ˈkɫɔ͜ʊn] instead of ['kɫɔ.ʊn]? Isn't /ou̯/ a diphthonɡ?


Russian doesn't have real diphthongs. In particular, while vocalic combinations in Russian aren't phonetically separated by glottal stops or something like that, phonologically they still represent sequences of vowel phonemes, which is reflected, for instance, in sillabification (klo-un, bra-u-nʲi, etc.). Of course, that difference is largely non-phonetic (the number of syllables in ordinary speech isn't something you can always objectively measure), but still.


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