# the latest I've slept



## 82riceballs

How does one say "the latest I've slept has been 3am"?

제일 늦게 잠을 잔 건 세벽 3시???

I think one of my friends suggested 제일 늦게 자봤자 새벽 3시...

Thanks in advance!!


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## Kross

82riceballs said:


> 1) 제일 늦게 잠을 잔 건 새벽 3시???
> 
> 2) 제일 늦게 자봤자 새벽 3시...


 Both are correct.


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## jakartaman

I'd just like to add...

When we use "~봤자" we imply that something/someone is not good enough, often to the point that we are contemptuous of it/him (or we treat it/him as if it's nothing).

걔가 잘 생겨 봤자지. He might be handsome but it doesn't impress me at all.

니가 똑똑해 봤자지. You might be smart but you can never outsmart me.

그래 봤자 안 돼. You could try but it's never going to work. (You don't know how to do it)


So when you say, 제일 늦게 자봤자, you are suggesting that 3 a.m. is not really late compared to the latest time when your friends or other Koreans go to sleep.


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## vientito

jakartaman said:


> I'd just like to add...
> When we use "~봤자" we imply that something/someone is not good enough, often to the point that we are contemptuous of it/him.
> 걔가 잘 생겨 봤자지. He may be handsome but it doesn't impress me at all.
> 니가 똑똑해 봤자지. You may be smart but you can never outsmart me.
> 그래 봤자 안 돼. You can try but it's never going to work. (You don't know how to do it)
> 
> So when you say, 제일 늦게 자봤자, you are suggesting that 3am is not really late compared to the lastest time when your friends or other Koreans go to sleep.



Why would this usage require the past form of 보다?


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## jakartaman

vientito said:


> Why would this usage require the past form of 보다?



A good question!  

I guess 보다 there is similar to 보다 as in 먹어 보다. This 보다 means "to try" not "to see."

이거 한국 라면인데, 먹어 봐: This is Korean ramen. Try it.


So when we say 봤자, we suggest that someone *could try* to be or do something but, however hard they try, it's not going to be good enough.

And why the past form? I think it's analogous to the English if-conditional, where the past tense doesn't mean a past action; rather an imaginary action that could possibly occur.

그래 *봤자* 안 돼: Even if you *tried*, (or You *could try* but) it wouldn't work (because your method is not right).

니가 똑똑해 *봤자*지: You *could *be smart (or you *could try* to be smart) but you can't outsmart me.


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## vientito

jakartaman said:


> A good question!
> 
> I guess 보다 there is similar to 보다 as in 먹어 보다. This 보다 means "to try" not "to see."
> 
> 이거 한국 라면인데, 먹어 봐: This is Korean ramen. Try it.
> 
> 
> So when we say 봤자, we suggest that someone *could try* to be or do something but, however hard they try, it's not going to be good enough.
> 
> And why the past form? I think it's analogous to the English if-conditional, where the past tense doesn't mean a past action; rather an imaginary action that could possibly occur.
> 
> 그래 *봤자* 안 돼: Even if you *tried*, (or You *could try* but) it wouldn't work (because your method is not right).
> 
> 니가 똑똑해 *봤자*지: You *could *be smart (or you *could try* to be smart) but you can't outsmart me.




Now everything is clear:  first time I find similar usage in korean as imperfect subjunctive in french/spanish/english is a colossal moment because I thought to myself how the heck korean actually mirrors the use of that in those three, purely out of coincidence (in the context of geography and history)?


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## jakartaman

vientito said:


> Now everything is clear:  first time I find similar usage in korean as imperfect subjunctive in french/spanish/english is a colossal moment because I thought to myself how the heck korean actually mirrors the use of that in those three, purely out of coincidence (in the context of geography and history)?



Yeah, something like "나는 니가 안 왔으면 좋겠어", which means "I hope you won't come" or, to make it easier for English speakers to understand, "If only you *wouldn't *come." 

I have used that sentence to talk some infidels into believing that all humankind used to speak one language before the tower of Babel. 

Of course, it didn't work.


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## Rance

jakartaman said:


> When we use "~봤자" we imply that something/someone is not good enough, often to the point that we are contemptuous of it/him (or we treat it/him as if it's nothing).




I personally think it's little more neutral than the definition given by jakartaman.
Though depending on the context/examples, it can convey negative meaning/feeling.



jakartaman said:


> So when we say 봤자, we suggest that someone *could try* to be or do something but, however hard they try, it's not going to be good enough.




This definition is probably what I will go with as well. 
I'd rephrase to "however hard they try, _they won't get the results they want_" to emphasize that the focus of the expression is at the negative result and not at the mean nor reason for such results.
Sometimes the reason for not being able to achieve the goal is because the person is lacking talent, will, or else, but sometimes it's because things are just out of hand.
The first definition given by jakartaman would suit better for the former case(such as in his examples), but not necessarily true in latter case.

For example:

Let's say you live 20 min away by car from train station and the next train arrives in 10 min.
아..지금은 출발해봤자 바로 다음 기차는 못 타겠네. 그 다음 기차가 몇시지?
Here it's not about not being good enough to drive fast, but rather it's just not practically possible to arrive in such short time.

Let's say Girl A finds out her boyfriend has been cheating and Girl B is trying to console her.
Girl A: 나쁜 놈....흑흑
Girl B: 그런 자식은 잘 해줘봤자 소용없다고 했잖아. 그냥 헤어져.
Here Girl B is far from saying that the devotion/love of Girl A is not good enough to catch the heart of the boyfriend.
Rather her statement implies that Girl A has been way too nice for her boyfriend who is simply a jerk.



Now going back to examples given by Kross. Like Jakartaman pointed out, the usages are slightly different.

When someone asks," When was latest you've ever fallen asleep?"
Then I'd answer, "흠..제일 늦게 자 본건 새벽 3시정도?" (In my experience, the latest hour to sleep was around 3 am).

When someone asks, "When do you usually sleep at night?"
Then I could answer, "늦게 자 봤자 새벽 3시 안에는 자요" (I go to bed no later than 3 am.)
In this case, "늦게 자봤자" is quite neutral expression without much negativity.


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## 82riceballs

Rance said:


> I personally think it's little more neutral than the definition given by jakartaman.
> Though depending on the context/examples, it can convey negative meaning/feeling.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This definition is probably what I will go with as well.
> I'd rephrase to "however hard they try, _they won't get the results they want_" to emphasize that the focus of the expression is at the negative result and not at the mean nor reason for such results.
> Sometimes the reason for not being able to achieve the goal is because the person is lacking talent, will, or else, but sometimes it's because things are just out of hand.
> The first definition given by jakartaman would suit better for the former case(such as in his examples), but not necessarily true in latter case.
> 
> For example:
> 
> Let's say you live 20 min away by car from train station and the next train arrives in 10 min.
> 아..지금은 출발해봤자 바로 다음 기차는 못 타겠네. 그 다음 기차가 몇시지?
> Here it's not about not being good enough to drive fast, but rather it's just not practically possible to arrive in such short time.
> 
> Let's say Girl A finds out her boyfriend has been cheating and Girl B is trying to console her.
> Girl A: 나쁜 놈....흑흑
> Girl B: 그런 자식은 잘 해줘봤자 소용없다고 했잖아. 그냥 헤어져.
> Here Girl B is far from saying that the devotion/love of Girl A is not good enough to catch the heart of the boyfriend.
> Rather her statement implies that Girl A has been way too nice for her boyfriend who is simply a jerk.
> 
> 
> 
> Now going back to examples given by Kross. Like Jakartaman pointed out, the usages are slightly different.
> 
> When someone asks," When was latest you've ever fallen asleep?"
> Then I'd answer, "흠..제일 늦게 자 본건 새벽 3시정도?" (In my experience, the latest hour to sleep was around 3 am).
> 
> When someone asks, "When do you usually sleep at night?"
> Then I could answer, "늦게 자 봤자 새벽 3시 안에는 자요" (I go to bed no later than 3 am.)
> In this case, "늦게 자봤자" is quite neutral expression without much negativity.



Thnks for all the detailed examples I get it now!


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