# How to imply your gender in a formal letter



## orchard

Hi!

When writing a formal letter to someone who doesn't know me at all, how can I indirectly imply my gender? For example, can one of the ways to this end be the following which is simply adding the phrase "Herr" just before the name?



> Ich bin Herr (name) (surname).



I would like to hear if you have better suggestions.

Many thanks in advance.


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## elroy

Hello,

Please give us more details:

- What kind of letter is this?  Who are you addressing it to, and why?  What are you communicating in the letter?
- Why would you like to imply your gender, as opposed to leaving no reference to it or stating it explicitly? 

"Ich bin Herr X" sounds weird to me.


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## Cub Pilot

Hallo orchard,
  Dein Problem ist ganz einfach zu lösen ;
offenbar bist Du männlichen Geschlechts. In einem Brief oder einer e-mail schreibst Du ja oben links Deine Adresse. Aus dieser Adresse kann man unmittelbar entnehmen - gemäß Deines Vornamens - , ob Du männlichen oder weiblichen Geschlechts bist. Du brauchst also Dein Geschlecht dann im folgenden Text Deines Briefes überhaupt nicht mehr zu erwähnen. Du kannst davon ausgehen, dass eine deutsche Firma oder eine deutsche Behörde sofort aus Deinem Vornamen erkennt, ob Du Mann oder Frau bist.

Beispiel:

Harkan Imamoglu  ...............................................................................Ankara, den 19.07. 2019
Dogenbey Mah.
Schittegmencalmaz Cad 18/A
06103 ULUS/ANKARA
TURKEY

Sehr geehrte Damen/Herren,

   hiermit möchte ich mich bei Ihnen um die Stelle als Übersetzer......bewerben. Usw., usw.( usw. = undsoweiter)
.........................................
...................................,.....

Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Harkan Imamoglu

(Nicht vergessen ! : im deutschen Brief  werden Sie , Ihnen,Ihr...alle Pronomen, die den Adressaten ansprechen, groß geschrieben.)


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## elroy

Manche Namen werden ja für beide Geschlechter verwenden. Vielleicht ist gerade _das_ orchards Problem. Darum (u.a.) habe ich um nähere Informationen gebeten.


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## orchard

Thank you both elroy and Cub Pilot. My name is actually way too rare. It would be impossible for them to infer my gender just by reading it. I would like my gender indirectly stated in the letter because I think it will be more elegant than just saying "I am a male", etc.

However, it has just occured to me that stating my profession would be enough as it also denotes the gender.

But if there are any other ways, I would like to hear them.


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## KaroCat

Hi orchard,

If you want to imply your gender but have doubt that your first name alone will help you could add (Herr) to the complimentary close of the letzter e.g.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen
(Herr) Harkan Imamoglu

Just a note that the date in German business correspondence is written 
„Ankara, 19. Juli 2019“.  „den“ between place and date used to be common but is no longer in use.


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## orchard

KaroCat said:


> Hi orchard,
> 
> If you want to imply your gender but have doubt that your first name alone will help you could add (Herr) to the complimentary close of the letzter e.g.
> 
> Mit freundlichen Grüßen
> (Herr) Harkan Imamoglu



That is exactly what I was looking for.



KaroCat said:


> Just a note that the date in German business correspondence is written
> „Ankara, 19. Juli 2019“.  „den“ between place and date used to be common but is no longer in use.


 
And that is news to me, really. 
Thanks for your explanations, KaroCat.


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## Hutschi

Hi, I do not know exactly, if it is formal enough.

I got lots of letters ending in following format:

Herzliche Grüße,
Ihre Inge Moritz

Herzliche Grüße,
Ihr Wolfgang Müller

The first (Ihre) indicates a woman.
The last (Ihr) indicates a man.


It is not so formal as omitting "Ihr/Ihre"

It is a similar format to

Viele Grüße,
Dein Bernd/Euer Bernd

in a letter to the husband, to the parents, to the children, and to the friends.

Singular and plural are the same: "Ihr" or "Ihre", repectively.

---
This may not work if the format is given.

---

_"Mit freundlichen Grüßen
(Herr) Harkan Imamoglu "_

Is the round brackett part of the letter or does it indicate that "Herr" is optional here?
I never ever used such brackets in letters. Is this new, in case it is really used?


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## bearded

(Viellecht gehoben/veraltet): auch _Ihr ergebener... / Ihre ergebene..._


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## Hutschi

bearded said:


> (Viellecht gehoben/veraltet): auch _Ihr ergebener... / Ihre ergebene..._


Indeed, very dated. 
It might be that it is used in special letters - bu not in "normal" formal letters.

It might be used in a comical way ... - but this is not formal.

---


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## elroy

KaroCat said:


> you could add (Herr) to the complimentary close of the letzter


 I’ve never seen this.  Is it actually done?


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## Hutschi

I searched for modern letter formulas in internet lessons on how to write letters in German.
Mostly they are without "Ihr/Ihre" and I never found (Herr) of (Frau).

So here is no direct way to write the gender into the formula in a modern style.

So I need an advice by the others:
Could I use, e.g. "Ihr Bernd Hutschenreuther"? Or is this dated?


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## KaroCat

Hutschi said:


> Hi, I do nott know exactly, if it is formal enough.
> 
> I got lots of letters ending in following format:
> 
> Herzliche Grüße,
> Ihre Inge Moritz
> 
> Herzliche Grüße,
> Ihr Wolfgang Müller
> 
> The first (Ihre) indicates a woman.
> The last (Ihr) indicates a man.
> 
> 
> It is not so formal as omitting "Ihr/Ihre"



In a formal letter to a completely unknown recipient or to a company (eg in a job application) I would not use this format as it implies a kind of (already existing or targeted) relationship between sender and addressee.



Hutschi said:


> Is the round brackett part of the letter or does it indicate that "Herr" is optional here?
> I never ever used such brackets in letters. Is this new, in case it is really used?



It would be part of the letter.




elroy said:


> I’ve never seen this.  Is it actually done?



There is no rule or guidance for this, we just tried to solve a problem „creatively“. 😀  Therefore it does not surprise me that you have never seen this.
After having been addressed as „Dear Ms ... / Liebe Frau …“ several times, one of my colleagues (who bears a [for Germans] very uncommon name) signed (e-)Mail in this way - and it worked.


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## Hutschi

I see. A good idea to solve a problem.


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## orchard

KaroCat said:


> There is no rule or guidance for this, we just tried to solve a problem „creatively“. 😀  Therefore it does not surprise me that you have never seen this.
> After having been addressed as „Dear Ms ... / Liebe Frau …“ several times, one of my colleagues (who bears a [for Germans] very uncommon name) signed (e-)Mail in this way - and it worked.



As I experience the same "uncommon name" problem, I believe your friend will always be my reference point in that. Nochmals vielen Dank für Ihre Hilfe.


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## berndf

orchard said:


> However, it has just occured to me that stating my profession would be enough as it also denotes the gender.


That might not be clear enough. If it is a job application you are expected include some more personal data anyway, including "Geschlecht: männlich".


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## Hutschi

In a job application, there may occure three genders:

_männlich, weiblich, divers_

This is rather new, and "divers" is seldom. See also SZ: Männlich, weiblich, divers - Vielfalt ist normal
But you might notice this in a job offer.

This is rather new, and it is part of non-discriminating policies.

see also:
Drittes Geschlecht – Wikipedia


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## Kajjo

elroy said:


> I’ve never seen this. Is it actually done?


Never seen it, looks weird. That might be a solution, but certainly not an established one.

I would recommend to add "Herr Harkan Imoglu" in the sender's address in the corner of the letter. That's easy and harmless.



KaroCat said:


> _Ihr Harkam Imoglu_
> 
> In a formal letter to a completely unknown recipient or to a company (eg in a job application) I would not use this format as it implies a kind of (already existing or targeted) relationship between sender and addressee.


This works for me, but I agree that it sounds overly cordial if they don't know each other.


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## KaroCat

Kajjo said:


> I would recommend to add "Herr Harkan Imoglu" in the sender's address in the corner of the letter. That's easy and harmless.



Hi Kajjo, I fully agree for paper correspondence. In e-mails, however, there is no sender‘s address. Any idea for e-mails?


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## Kajjo

KaroCat said:


> Hi Kajjo, I fully agree for paper correspondence. In e-mails, however, there is no sender‘s address. Any idea for e-mails?


In emails the sender's address and contact details are usually given below, called "signature".

----
Herr Harkan Imoglu
harkan@nowehere.com
phone number +43 555 11 33


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## elroy

Kajjo said:


> ----
> Herr Harkan Imoglu
> harkan@nowehere.com
> phone number +43 555 11 33


 I’ve never seen this either.  Is it common?


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## Kajjo

elroy said:


> I’ve never seen this either. Is it common?


Including "Herr"? No, it's not common. It's a good solution for the problem, though.

But it works and does not stir up wrong connotations.


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## elroy

Kajjo said:


> It's a good solution for the problem, though.


 What I still don’t understand is why it’s a problem.  Why does orchard need them to know his gender?  Is it just to preempt a possible mistake in future correspondence from them (where they address him as “Frau” instead of “Herr”)?  That’s happened to me once or twice before, and I think in my response I added_ (ich bin Mann)_ or_ (ich bin männlich)_ in parentheses.


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## Kajjo

elroy said:


> What I still don’t understand is why it’s a problem. Why does orchard need them to know his gender?


Without any political implications, gender is one  of the most basic properties of a person. Of course you want them to know.



elroy said:


> Is it just to preempt a possible mistake in future correspondence


Of course, if you give your name, the other side will have to address you fully. Personally, I have quite often the problem with overseas customers that I cannot identify the gender of the given name and then I don't know what to write. Too bad.

Sometimes I ignore the name and write "Dear Sir/Madam" to let them know that they didn't succeed in giving proper name data. Sometimes I use "Dear Harkan Imoglu" (sounds weird to me, though) without Mr/Mrs, sometimes I used "Dear Dr. Imoglu" if he has a title. But missing a proper addressee name is a nuisance.

Of course you have to provide a proper name to respond to and I always want to know the gender of my correspondonce. Don't you?


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## elroy

Kajjo said:


> Of course you want them to know.


 I've honestly never thought about it.  Maybe I haven't ever _had _to think about it because my name is used for one gender only?  I might feel differently about this if it wasn't.  (I think the one or two times I was addressed as "Frau" were probably because the person wasn't familiar with the name and just took a guess.)


Kajjo said:


> I cannot identify the gender of the given name and then I don't know what to write.


 I usually search for the name in Google Images or ask someone who knows the language/culture in question.


Kajjo said:


> I always want to know the gender of my correspondonce. Don't you?


 The only time it's an issue is if I can't tell from the name, and the only reason I want to get it right is because I don't want to offend the other person, not because I have a need to know their gender.


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## Kajjo

elroy said:


> not because I have a need to know their gender


Well, I feel "a need to know". Communication is gender-specific, men and women are not the same.


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## elroy

We're getting off-topic, so we shouldn't get into the general topic here.   I was interested in knowing why _orchard_ wanted his gender to be known, in his particular context.


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## Hutschi

Orchard answered this in #7.


orchard said:


> KaroCat said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi orchard,
> 
> If you want to imply your gender but have doubt that your first name alone will help you could add (Herr) to the complimentary close of the letzter e.g.
> 
> Mit freundlichen Grüßen
> (Herr) Harkan Imamoglu
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is exactly what I was looking for.
> ...
Click to expand...


---

So how can we solve the problem, if he first name/forename does not show the gender?

Except in Adress fields, there is no standardized form but there are possibilities.

As far as I see, Kajjo gave reasons why it is important to use proper forms. So I do not think that tthis is really off topic.

Take a German name as Example: "Chris".

A letter ends with
_Best regards
Chris Müller_

How would you address him or her?

_Best regards
(Frau) Chris Müller

or
Best regards
(Herr) Chris Müller_

would clarify it.

What other forms exist and are appropriate, if there are no formal address fields?

This is my interpretation.

Best regards
Bernd


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## Kajjo

Hutschi said:


> What other forms exist and are appropriate, if there are no formal address fields?


I believe my suggestion with an email signature below will solve the issue. 

In German we need the gender to write a proper address.


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