# Can I sit here?



## about:blank

What would you say if you want to ask "Can I sit here" (informally)

Not literal translation, but how would Italian people say, most frequently?

Like "Is this seat free?" or something else?

Thanks!


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## joe86

Easily done:
_posso sedermi (qui)?_
_è libero (qui/questo posto)?_

Hope it helps 

_Joe_


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## about:blank

Thanks Joe!
But what is this _sedermi_? Is it conditional on sedere?


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## joe86

It's a reflexive verb...it would be as if you said _to sit myself_ = _mi siedo...sedermi_
I know it sounds a bit odd in English but in Italian the use of reflexive verbs is necessary.

_Joe_


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## about:blank

I always have a problem with reflexive verbs...And how would I know if it's relexive or not...Or can/should I use it as long as the action of the verb is perfomed on myself?


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## tomzenith

about:blank said:


> I always have a problem with reflexive verbs...And how would I know if it's relexive or not...Or can/should I use it as long as the action of the verb is perfomed on myself?



There's probably a much better explanation than this (in fact this isn't an explanation at all..) but I always think that if there is anyway it could be phrased reflexively in English (even if we normally wouldn't) it needs to be reflexive in Italian. It doesn't always work, but it helps you think about it. For example - 

Can I sit (myself) down? - Posso sedermi?
We need to move (ourselves)! - Dobbiamo muoverci!
I get/wake (myself) up - mi alzo/sveglio

etc. etc.

EDIT: Joe's list below is far more comprehensive, and in each example there is a way that it could be phrased reflexively in English (lay yourself down, stand yourself up, shower yourself) it's just that we tend not to (normally because we've dropped it somewhere along the way I think).


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## joe86

Humm...it's always difficult to give general rules on such broad subjects. All I can say is that a lot of actions which are performed on yourself take the reflexive...but I really don't know if that goes for every situation... 

Let's try a few examples:

to lie down _sdraiarsi_
to sit down_ sedersi_
to content yourself _accotentarsi_
to stand up _alzarsi_
to identify yourself _identificarsi_
to fall asleep _addormentarsi_
to consol yourself _accontentarsi_
to have a shower _far*si* la doccia_
to commit yourself _impegnarsi_
_...._

As you can see, sometimes you can infer the reflexive is needed (when it is to be used in English as well) while some other times it gets a bit more complicated...
As a general rule, if you use the reflexive for all the Italian verbs which involve actions performed on yourself you risk going wrong much less than the other way round (in English I was taught to do the opposite, as you do not use it so much, do you? )

Hope that clears it up a bit

_Joe_


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## about:blank

tomzenith said:


> There's probably a much better explanation than this (in fact this isn't an explanation at all..) but I always think that if there is anyway it could be phrased reflexively in English (even if we normally wouldn't) it needs to be reflexive in Italian. It doesn't always work, but it helps you think about it. For example -
> 
> Can I sit (myself) down? - Posso sedermi?
> We need to move (ourselves)! - Dobbiamo muoverci!
> I get/wake (myself) up - mi alzo/sveglio
> 
> etc. etc.



NICE!
This is really helpful! Thank you so much Tom!


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## about:blank

joe86 said:


> As a general rule, if you use the reflexive for all the Italian verbs which involve actions performed on yourself you risk going wrong much less than the other way round (in English I was taught to do the opposite, as you do not use so much, do you? )




LOL! I'll try to use as much as I can....
Grazie mille!!!


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## Azazel81

joe86 said:


> to commit yourself _impeganarsi I think you mean "impegnarsi" here _
> _...._
> 
> 
> _Joe_


 
Mainly your list is correct... it's difficult anyway, as you said before.
An example of a verb, which works similarly to those, but it's not reflexive (actually, it MAY be reflexive): 

To have a walk... fare una camminata/farsi una camminata (the first one sounds more correct to me... the second one sounds a bit more informal).


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## brian

The example I usually give people to explain this concept is the verb _to weigh_. You can _weigh _someone or something--_I weighed the apples_, _The doctor weighed the baby_--but when you weigh yourself, you literally have to express _yourself_--_I weighed myself._

You cannot simply say _I weighed_  like you can with _I bathed, I woke up_, etc., which have counterparts _I bathed the baby, I woke up my sister,_ etc.

So just pretend that in Italian it always works like _weigh_. You need to express the _yourself_ part, otherwise it makes no sense.


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## TrentinaNE

about:blank said:


> "Can I sit here"


This causes my ears to hurt. It's "_May_ I sit here?" 

Elisabetta


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## Azazel81

TrentinaNE said:


> This causes my ears to hurt. It's "_May_ I sit here?"
> 
> Elisabetta


 
Eheheh... I think you're gonna *going to* have to get used to this  after all, in Italy we got used to hearing people say stuff like: "se ero ricco, non stavo qui" instead of "se fossi (stato) ricco, non sarei (stato) qui"... This is nothing compared to what I just mentioned 

I know everyone CAN sit... but not all MAY... eheheh...


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## tomzenith

TrentinaNE said:


> This causes my ears to hurt. It's "_May_ I sit here?"
> 
> Elisabetta



Perhaps, but I think I would say 'can' here if I wanted to be friendly or informal (actually I'd probably say 'do you mind if I'), it might not be correct or well-mannered, but its incredibly common.

Point is, if I said 'may I sit here' to someone my own age on a train, I'd look like a bit of a tit and get an odd look, or more. Could be a BE/AE thing though (there seem to be more of those than I could have possibly guessed - perhaps we could ask MK to open an AE - BE forum?)


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## brian

TrentinaNE said:
			
		

> This causes my ears to hurt. It's "_May_ I sit here?"



And for those of us who didn't bother to listen to our 6th grade grammar teachers, it's simply "Can I sit here." 

I'm sure this has been discussed 467 times already though.

Edit: Sorry Tom, didn't see your post there. I'd get a funny look in the US as well.


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## about:blank

TrentinaNE said:


> This causes my ears to hurt. It's "_May_ I sit here?"
> 
> Elisabetta



Haha..
'Cause people say "scusa" everywhere... So I used "can" and stated in my original post "informally"...



tomzenith said:


> Perhaps, but I think I would say 'can' here if I wanted to be friendly or informal (actually I'd probably say 'do you mind if I'), it might not be correct or well-mannered, but its incredibly common.
> 
> Point is, if I said 'may I sit here' to someone my own age on a train, I'd look like a bit of a tit and get an odd look, or more. Could be a BE/AE thing though (there seem to be more of those than I could have possibly guessed - perhaps we could ask MK to open an AE - BE forum?)



Well I'll say "excuse me, can I" or "is that ok if I"
I have a problem saying "may"....


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## Azazel81

about:blank said:


> Well I'll say "excuse me, can I" or "is that ok if I"
> I have a problem saying "may"....


 
Eheheh.. does it sound TOO British to you?


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## about:blank

Azazel81 said:


> Eheheh.. does it sound TOO British to you?



Well I guess it's more an age gap rather than AE-BE thing...
You heard my British peer Tom


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## Einstein

joe86 said:


> to lay down _sdraiarsi_


 
A small correction to a common mistake, also among English-speakers:

*To lie* down *(lay, lain)* is an intransitive verb.
*To lay (laid, laid)* is a transitive verb.


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## joe86

> *To lie* down *(lay, lain)* is an intransitive verb.
> *To lay (laid, laid)* is a transitive verb.


 
What a dumb typo I made there! Just fixed it. Thanks for pointing that out Einstein 

Cheers

_Joe_


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## about:blank

Einstein said:


> A small correction to a common mistake, also among English-speakers:
> 
> *To lie* down *(lay, lain)* is an intransitive verb.
> *To lay (laid, laid)* is a transitive verb.



Now I'm confused...Does transitivity have anything to do with reflexivity?
Can an intransitive verb be reflexive?

p.s. I should have read the chat before it been deleted by Brian...Now I'm suffering from my curiosity...


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## joe86

Well, as I understand it...a transitive verb requires an object so I don't think you would use the reflexive.

_To lay the table_ = _apparechiare la tavola_ (the action is performed on an object, not on yourself...)

But again, I'm not actually sure this goes for every situation...

Strange language we speak, don't we?


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## tomzenith

about:blank said:


> Does transitivity have anything to do with reflexivity? Can an intransitive verb be reflexive?



Yes, and no, in that order. An intransitive verb doesn't have an object, and since a reflexive form is one in which the subject and object are the same (I + me/myself etc.) an intransitive verb can't be reflexive. Does that make sense?

You couldn't for example say 'I thrive myself' or 'he arrived himself'.


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## brian

It depends on how you define transitive, reflexive, intransitive, etc. By definition, every reflexive verb will take a reflexive pronoun (_mi, ti, _etc.) as an object. If you consider that pronoun a direct object, e.g. _Mi siedo --> mi_ is dir. obj. of _siedo_, then every reflexive verb is transitive, meaning no intransitive verb can be reflexive.

I don't really know what the stance on this is in modern Italian grammar.


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## joe86

tomzenith said:


> Yes, and no, in that order. An intransative verb doesn't have an object, and since a reflexive form is one in which the subject and object are the same (I + me/myself etc.) an intransitive verb can't be reflexive. Does that make sense?


 
That was an outstanding explanation Tom! 
Have you checked with the grammar book on your desk by any chance?


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## about:blank

tomzenith said:


> Yes, and no, in that order. An intransative verb doesn't have an object, and since a reflexive form is one in which the subject and object are the same (I + me/myself etc.) an intransitive verb can't be reflexive. Does that make sense?


 
That's what on my mind.
But why Einstein corrected Joe because of "lay" is transitive...


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## Paulfromitaly

about:blank said:


> That's what on my mind.
> But why Einstein corrected Joe because of "lay" is transitive...



You lie down in bed. (intransitive)
You lay something on the bed (transitive)

_I lay down in bed_ is wrong


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## tomzenith

joe86 said:


> That was an outstanding explanation Tom!
> Have you checked with the grammar book on your desk by any chance?



No, but I was raised by a two English lecturers and some of it stuck!  

@ a:b - that's because you can 'lie down' but not 'lie yourself down', whereas you can only 'lay yourself down'. 'To lie' is intransitive, 'to lay' is transitive. The second form is rarer in contemporary usage, so you do hear the (incorrect) phrase 'lie yourself down' from time to time.


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## brian

Paulfromitaly said:


> _I lay down in bed_ is wrong



Not necessarily. _Lay_ is the past tense of _lie_.  (See Einstein's post.)

_Now I lie down in (my) bed. Yesterday I lay down in (my) bed._


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## about:blank

Paulfromitaly said:


> You lie down in bed. (intransitive)
> You lay something on the bed (transitive)
> 
> _I lay down in bed_ is wrong



My point is, it should be the meaning that matters, not the transitivity.

And since _lie_ is intransitive while reflexive...OK I should have gone to a grammar school...


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## about:blank

brian8733 said:


> Not necessarily. _Lay_ is the past tense of _lie_.  (See Einstein's post.)
> 
> _Now I lie down in (my) bed. Yesterday I lay down in (my) bed._



Actually I think "lay myself down to sleep" is grammartically correct.. I mean in the present tense...
If I can lay a carpet over a sleeping child, why can't I lay myself...


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## tomzenith

about:blank said:


> My point is, it should be the meaning that matters, not the transitivity.
> 
> And since _lie_ is intransitive while reflexive...OK I should have gone to a grammar school...



Sorry, perhaps I should clarify that these are two completely different verbs:

*To lie*. Always intransitive (and therefore never reflexive). The past tense of this is, as Brian noted above, 'lay', which I think is one of the reasons this gets so confused.

*To lay. *Always transitive (and therefore *can* be reflexive).   This is the verb in the example you posted above.


			
				OED said:
			
		

> *Lay - *General sense: To cause to lie.



I wish I'd gone to private school, my privacy is awful.


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## Einstein

about:blank said:


> My point is, it should be the meaning that matters, not the transitivity.
> 
> And since _lie_ is intransitive while reflexive...OK I should have gone to a grammar school...


But transitivity is an important aspect of the meaning! _Lie_ and _lay_ have different uses precisely because their meanings are different. As they are used in similar situations it's convenient to explain their difference with reference to their transitivity/intransitivity.
_Go_ is intransitive, _mix_ is transitive, but their meanings are very different for other reasons, so we wouldn't think of distinguishing them in this way. On the other hand, _rise_ and _raise_ are similar in their use, so they are best distinguished by talking about their transitivity. That's all!
---------------
In English a transitive verb can become reflexive, but many verbs that are reflexive in Italian are translated into English with an intransitive verb:

_to wash something_ (transitive)
_to wash oneself_ is reflexive, but we usually say only _to wash_ (intransitive): I went into the bathroom and washed.


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## about:blank

tomzenith said:


> Sorry, perhaps I should clarify that these are two completely different verbs:
> 
> *To lie*. Always intransitive (and therefore never reflexive). The past tense of this is, as Brian noted above, 'lay', which I think is one of the reasons this gets so confused.
> 
> *To lay. *Always transitive (and therefore *can* be reflexive).   This is the verb in the example you posted above.
> 
> 
> I wish I'd gone to private school, my privacy is awful.



Thanks for your English tutoring but that's not where my doubt is...
Grrrrrrr I complicated it myself...

Alright, back to _*sdraiarsi*._ Is it on earth _to lay down_ or _to lie down...

_Actrally _lie_ makes more sense to me, while in that case it would be a reflexive intransitive verb...



Einstein said:


> In English a transitive verb can become reflexive, but many verbs that are reflexive in Italian are translated into English with an intransitive verb



Guess this is what I'm looking for...
Thanks!
And sorry for complicated this thread....


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