# FR: une fois arrivé(e) au bureau



## Garysfraser

Can anyone explain why its ‘une fois arrivé au bureau’ and not arrivée? I presume arrivé is an adjective here. Merci en avance.
Gary


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## atcheque

What is your context ?
_arrivé_ is a past participle (used as an adjective) describing a state of the subject (predicative adjective).
It can be masculine, feminine ; singular or plural.


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## bearded

atcheque said:


> It can be masculine


Like in this case, methinks: masculine singular.


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## Maître Capello

atcheque said:


> _arrivé_ is a past participle (used as an adjective) describing a state of the subject (predicative adjective).


It is actually not a predicative adjective (_adjectif attribut_ in French) as it is not linked to the subject through the main verb. It is a past participle used in a participial phrase.

Anyway, that past participle indeed agrees with the noun it modifies:

_Une fois arriv*é* au bureau, *Marc* a remarqué qu'*il* avait oublié ses clefs.
Une fois arriv*ée* au bureau, *Isabelle* a remarqué qu'*elle* avait oublié ses clefs.
Une fois arriv*és* au bureau, *mes amis* ont remarqué qu'*ils* avaient oublié leurs clefs.
Une fois arriv*ées* au bureau, *mes amies* ont remarqué qu'*elles* avaient oublié leurs clefs._


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## bearded

Would you call it ''un participe absolu''?


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## Maître Capello

No, because there is no separate subject.


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## bearded

Then can it perhaps be explained as an elliptic form? _Une fois arrivé, il... = _une fois qu'il est/était arrivé, il..


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## olivier68

You could also see it as a shortcut for "_une fois que_":

_une fois [qu'*elles* seront] arrivé*es*, *elles* iront à la plage._


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## bearded

olivier68 said:


> une fois [qu'*elles* seront] arrivé*es*


Thanks, but I can see no difference compared to my #7 (except for your future tense).


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## olivier68

@bearded: crossposts


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## Garysfraser

The context is a grammar sentence from Fluent Forever:

Une fois arrivé au bureau, j’ai remarqué que le dos de ma chemise était sale

Which is translated as: Once I arrived to the office I noticed that the back of my shirt was dirty (not great English - should be at the office.)

It is interesting in learning a new language that one learns a lot about constructions in your own language which usually you take for granted and are ignorant about.

Arrivé here seems to be masc. sing. but I am not sure why. I had thought arrivé was related to ‘une fois’ but apparently not. Can someone explain (simply if possible) please?I am only just starting to learn the nuances of grammer!


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## Maître Capello

Garysfraser said:


> Arrivé here seems to be masc. sing. but I am not sure why.


This implies that the noun it refers to, namely the subject (here: _je_), is masculine singular.

If the subject is male: _Une fois arriv*é* au bureau, *j'*ai remarqué que…_
If the subject is female: _Une fois arriv*ée* au bureau, *j'*ai remarqué que…_



Garysfraser said:


> I had thought arrivé was related to ‘une fois’ but apparently not.



It has indeed nothing to do with _une fois_, which may actually be omitted here: _Arrivé au bureau, j'ai remarqué que…_


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## bearded

Garysfraser said:


> Can someone explain (simply if possible) please?I am only just starting to learn the nuances of grammer!


Une fois (qu'il est) arrivé / une fois (qu' elle est) arrivée...


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## Bezoard

Garysfraser said:


> Une fois arrivé au bureau, j’ai remarqué que le dos de ma chemise était sale
> Which is translated as: Once I arrived to the office I noticed that the back of my shirt was dirty (not great English - should be at the office.)


I guess you could use exactly the same construction in English :
_Once arrived at the office, I noticed....
Une fois arrivé au bureau, j'ai remarqué..._


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## Maître Capello

As far as I know, you should repeat the subject in English:

_Once *I* arrived at the office, *I* noticed....
Une fois arrivé au bureau, *j'*ai remarqué..._


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## Bezoard

Maybe. However :

_Once arrived_ at Bordighera, we settled down very comfortably, lodging in a hotel, ...

Once arrived at the Petit Carrousel, the King boasted of his selfpossession, which had even enabled him to bend down and casually fasten the loose buckle on his shoe.

_Once arrived_, Villafane invited the people to go with him to Santa Elena (Georgia) to establish a town and a fort. 

Once arrived there I began to press him again; but still he would speak only of some dark and terrible danger, ...

_Once arrived_ at Smithfield, they were thrown from the wagons to the cobblestones.


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## ForeverHis

Maître Capello said:


> As far as I know, you should repeat the subject in English:
> 
> _Once *I* arrived at the office, *I* noticed....
> Une fois arrivé au bureau, *j'*ai remarqué..._


As far as I know, in modern English it is better to repeat the subject. "Once arrived" sounds really weird, at least to these American ears.


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## Bezoard

I see there has been a discussion on that matter once (sic!) :
"once" followed by an adjective or past participle
My understanding is that the construction with _once_ directly followed by the past participle "arrived" is correct but not that frequent (less frequent than the corresponding construction in French) and consequently it sounds weird to some ears, American or not!

However, again, I have encountered that construction in lots of books :

_Once arrived_ in Babylon, however, the exiles seem to have been completely free to settle and live ... 
Zondervan Illustrated Bible Dictionary
But _once arrived_ in Sicily, he quickly regained the advantage, recovered possession of Eryx and l\lotya, and compelled Dionysius to fall back towards the eastern side of the island 
Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology by Various Writers
_Once arrived_ in the Caribbean, this pidgin _English_ continued to ...
English as a Global Language
_Once arrived_, daddy was just received by the doctor. 
The English Language - Méthode d’apprentissage de l’anglais
_Once arrived_ there, Sir Charles proceeded to the platform to offer explanations to the patiently waiting audience.
A Short History of English Music

Do these sentences look strange to American eyes?


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## ForeverHis

Hello Bezoard,

As far as I can tell, almost all of the citations you gave come from works that were written a long time ago. The English is old-fashioned and I wouldn't encourage English learners to imitate it. The one written by Steven Parker (Méthode d'apprentissage...) may not be the best source for proper English usage. I read some of it on Amazon. There are some weird examples and a lot of errors. I wasn't impressed. Actually, I* was* impressed by how poor it was! Better just err on the side of caution and repeat the subject (once I arrived, I...). Cheers!


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## Bezoard

Thanks for your answer. 
I quite agree with your opinion on Seven Parker. I noticed exactly the problems you mentioned but I left  it in my list for others to see it!
Yes, I also agree that most of the examples date back to the end of the 19th Century while we are in the 21st.
And yes, it is better for English learners not to imitate the obsolete construction.
However, I was wondering whether this kind of construction was definitely abandoned by the educated part of the English-speaking people, or if it was still known and occasionally used in texts of a certain standard of language.
I am saying this, because in French, we have a lot of out-of-fashion words and constructions that are unknown from the vast majority of the population, but which can be used by good writers and give the educated reader a lot of pleasure.


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## ForeverHis

Hello Bezoard,

We do have plenty of  constructions in modern English that are generally limited to more refined literary works, even though some people may employ them in everyday language (moi, par exemple). But I've never seen this particular construction in any recent works. Hope this helps. Cheers.


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