# Swedish: the use of first name



## Språkliga Möten

I read a blog article written today with a headline, "Krya på dig, Mikael"

 This person who's barely entered politics who wrote this blog is wishing a veteran politiker of 50 years well and addressed him by the first name. Perhaps I'm a bit old-fashioned, but doesn't he deserve to be called something like "Herr Mikael"? What do you guys think?


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## Lars H

The Swedish society has - since the sixties - really taken the step into the "first names" world. 
Titles like "Herr" or "Fru" are rarely used, except for more formal occasions. 
The only occasions that would call for titles and the formal "third person addressing" I can think of would be in communication with the King or the Royal family or with superiors in the military (on duty, first names could often be used off duty). You can read more here about du/ni.

Even bearers of more formal, traditionally high status titles like "doctor", "head master", "judge" or "vicar" expect to be addressed with first names and "du" (thou).

This could seem a bit odd for many non Swedes, but fact is that it works fine and very few Swedes of today miss the old days, also among them old enough to have been brought up before the sixties.

I don't know of the blog you are referring to, but my guess is that there isn't an alternative expression that would have been more appropriate than "Krya på dig, Mikael".

Moreso, I'd guess that the other Scandinavians have had a similar development in their countries.

Any Scandinavian out there that agrees/disagrees?


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## Ben Jamin

Lars H said:


> The Swedish society has - since the sixties - really taken the step into the "first names" world.
> Titles like "Herr" or "Fru" are rarely used, except for more formal occasions.
> The only occasions that would call for titles and the formal "third person addressing" I can think of would be in communication with the King or the Royal family or with superiors in the military (on duty, first names could often be used off duty). You can read more here about du/ni.
> 
> Even bearers of more formal, traditionally high status titles like "doctor", "head master", "judge" or "vicar" expect to be addressed with first names and "du" (thou).
> 
> This could seem a bit odd for many non Swedes, but fact is that it works fine and very few Swedes of today miss the old days, also among them old enough to have been brought up before the sixties.
> 
> I don't know of the blog you are referring to, but my guess is that there isn't an alternative expression that would have been more appropriate than "Krya på dig, Mikael".
> 
> Moreso, I'd guess that the other Scandinavians have had a similar development in their countries.
> 
> Any Scandinavian out there that agrees/disagrees?


It is quite similar both in Norway and Denmark, but there is also a widespread belief in all the Nordic countries, that this way of addressing makes people more equal. This is a fallacy. In fact the status differences between people have nothing to do with using or not using a formal address form, but with the power they have on each other. Remember, in ancient Rome everybody addressed the Emperor with "tu Cæsar" (thou Caesar), but it did not make them equal.


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## hanne

Lars, I agree entirely on your description of current practice. I think we got there by slightly different ways though. It's my impression that we left "niande/desning" earlier than Sweden did - or at least we came from a somewhat different situation. I cannot quite put a finger to it, but for example I think the use of titles in address was more common in Sweden than in Denmark, and third person addressing wasn't used here (or at least abandoned earlier).



Ben Jamin said:


> ... but there is also a widespread belief in all the Nordic countries, that this way of addressing makes people more equal. This is a fallacy.


That's an opinion - please help keep the debate clear, and don't state opinions as facts.


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## Tjahzi

I, too, very much agree with Lars' description above. However, I find the subject so interesting that I just have to add some thoughts. Anything along the lines of "Herr Mikael" would indeed sounds ridiculously old fashioned. In fact, I would go as far as to say that _herr_ has ceased to function as a title. (Thought this could of course be explained as a natural result of titles in general being next to extinct.) The word obviously stems from the noun _herre_ which is becoming obsolete, losing its older meanings of _adult male person, gentleman, master. _In fact, the habit of abolishing titles in favor for first names has even spread to Christianity, which previously frequently employed the word in its definite form,_ Herren_ - _the Lord_, but now prefers _Gud_ instead! I find that to be a rather amusing pattern. 

(Obviously both words have been, and are being, used for a long time, but I'm under the impression that nowadays, _Gud_ is definitely preferred over _Herren_ (which indeed sounds formal and old fashioned)).

Similarly, when I first started school, I remember our teacher occasionally being referred to as _fröken_, but always addressed with first name (by fellow children around me). Quite soon, first name became the only way to both refer to and address teachers for the remaining ten or so years of primary school and later university.

In an attempt to come up with a theory which could explain this (other than _Jantelagen_), I would guess that since Swedish/Scandinavian people are generally perceived as being "cold" and "emotionally inexpressive" it could indeed have been a compliment or a positive thing to express one's close relationship with someone (through an informal addressing). This is just a wild guess of what could have been one reason among many that triggered the reforms half a decade ago. Also, it could be considered more of a psychological than linguistic question, but I still find it interesting. 

As a reference to the above theory, consider the following situation:
Imagine that you are in some kind of position of power,_ boss, manager, executive_, pick one. Would you rather have people (of "lower rank") addressing you with your title - in order to express your superiority in terms of power/rank/respect, _or_ have them addressing you with your name - in order to stress your close/good/open personal (though professional ) relationship. Personally I would definitely prefer the latter. So, the question, to you fellow Scandinavians, is: is it just me, or are do we in general value personal relationships rather than respect?

Please share your thoughts.


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## Ben Jamin

hanne said:


> Lars, I agree entirely on your description of current practice. I think we got there by slightly different ways though. It's my impression that we left "niande/desning" earlier than Sweden did - or at least we came from a somewhat different situation. I cannot quite put a finger to it, but for example I think the use of titles in address was more common in Sweden than in Denmark, and third person addressing wasn't used here (or at least abandoned earlier).
> 
> 
> That's an opinion - please help keep the debate clear, and don't state opinions as facts.


 This forum is full of opinions (see for instance the following posting from Tjahzi, on the same matter). Besides, how can you tell what facts is?


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## Tjahzi

I believe what Hanne wanted to stress was the importance of clearly distinguishing one's own opinions from commonly acknowledged facts.



hanne said:


> That's an opinion - please help keep the debate clear, and don't state opinions as facts.



At least that's what she said.


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## hanne

Tjahzi said:


> I believe what Hanne wanted to stress was the importance of clearly distinguishing one's own opinions from commonly acknowledged facts.


Exactly.


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## Lars H

I think Ben Jamin has a good point, at least regarding Sweden.

One of the reasons - perhaps the most important one - that the language became less formal in the sixties (which was a quite left oriented decade) was to narrow the gap between different groups in society. 

And it wasn't a spontaneous development. Instead it started in 1967 when Bror Rexed, the Director of the Government Medical Board (Medicinalstyrelsen) at a staff meeting announced that from that point on he would be on first name basis with all employees. What he started has even a name in Swedish, "du-reformen".
(Well then of course he didn't come to that decision out of the blue, there was a debate going on at the time).

To some extent an informal climate can improve the quality in personal relations, as Tjahzi points out. But there is far more to it. Human communication as more complex than so, and if Swedes wish to keep their distance with their bosses, peers, staff or others, the use of first names and "du" is no obstacle at all.


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## Martin78

Tjahzi said:


> Anything along the lines of "Herr Mikael" would indeed sounds ridiculously old fashioned.



I complete agree with that, calling someone "Herr Mikael" could almost be a bit rude, as it would only sound satirical in Swedish ears.


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## ermannoitaly

Hei/Hi
Herr Xyz / Signor Xyz - Det kommer an på konteksten/sammenhengen og selvfølgelig hvordan en/man uttrykke seg, men det er mulig at et slikt uttrykk også på italiensk kan tydes som noe ironisk / sarkastisk.
Jeg visste at  det var vanlig i Norden å bruke et (uformalt) pronomenet som du 
heller enn De, i samtaler . I tillegg  leser jeg at det er mulig å bruke enkelt navnet uten ordet "herr" foran. 
Men hva skjer med titler som doktor, professor osv...når blir disse titlene brukt ? 
En annen ting til : er det rettskrivningfeil å skrive ordet "Professor Xyz" istedenfor
"professor Xyz" på svensk ? 

Takk
Mvh


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## vaftrudner

Jeg er ikke sikker hvordan titler brukes på dansk og norsk, men på svensk brukes de nesten aldri. Du tiltaler en lege eller en professor med fornavn. Hvis titlerne brukes er det med etternavnet, "doktor Johansson", men det er nesten alltid brukt kun når noen presenteres, hvis det er relevant. I rettskrivning skal en titel på svensk ikke ha stor bokstav, bare navn. F.eks. "Detta är vad professor Johansson anser i frågan"


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