# English may be the language everyone needs to know



## Sprazzo d'arancia

Hi guys, I want to translate the following:

"English may be the language everyone needs to know, but Italian is the language people want to learn. That's why Dianne Halles describes it as the 'new French' "
 
My try:

"Mentre l'inglese è la lingua che si deve sapere, l'italiano è la lingua che la gente vuole imparare. Perciò, secondo Dianne Halles, l'italiano e il "nuovo francese" "


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## macforever

Sprazzo d'arancia said:


> Hi guys, I want to translate the following:
> 
> "English may be the language everyone needs to know, but Italian is the language people want to learn. That's why Dianne Halles describes it as the 'new French' "
> 
> My try:
> 
> "Mentre l'inglese è la lingua che si deve sapere, l'italiano è la lingua che la gente vuole imparare. Perciò, secondo Dianne Halles, l'italiano e il "nuovo francese" "


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## ElFrikiChino

Premettendo che la proposta è correttissima, propongo un'altra traduzione, perchè secondo me quella fornita è più "piatta" rispetto all'originale (ma forse interpreto male l'originale).

L'inglese sarà anche la lingua che si deve sapere, ma _l'italiano è la lingua/è l'italiano la lingua_ che la gente vuole imparare. Per questo Dianne Halles la definisce "il nuovo francese".


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## TrentinaNE

English _may be_ does not equal English _is._  May be = può essere?  Forse sarebbe?

Elisabetta


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## Alxmrphi

_English may be_ ..... is a way of saying that while English *is *something, there's another point pertinent to the topic that will now be introduced (but it's not the language everyone wants to learn, that is Italian...

Semantically, (IMO) it is saying that _English is the language you have to learn_.....
Using "_may be_" just gives it a flavour that a *but...* is coming, so I don't think it's wrong to use _è_ in Italian..

I'd translate the first part as "_Come tutti di noi sappiamo, l'inglese è la lingua che si deve imparare *ma*_..."

Completely different from '_maybe_'.


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## MStraf

Back to the original question (if I _may_...)

In English the "X is the new Y" means that _"nowadays X is what in the past was Y"_.
I don't know (I am asking the "true", new Italians here) if in Italian _"il nuovo francese"_ (che mi sembra il titolo di un dizionario...) has the same meaning.


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## DreamingAfrica

In my opinion, the English sentence has this meaning:

"L'inglese è (con l'accezione di "continua ad essere") la lingua che tutti dovrebbero conoscere; ma è l'italiano la lingua che la gente (nel senso di "sempre più persone") vuole imparare. Per questo Dianne Halles descrive l'italiano come "il nuovo francese"."

To MStraf: yes, it's exactly _nowadays Italian is what in the past was French_


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## Blackman

L'Inglese sara' pure la lingua che tutti devono conoscere, ma e' l'Italiano quella che tutti vogliono imparare.


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## occhibelli

Alxmrphi said:


> _English may be_ ..... is a way of saying that while English *is *something, there's another point pertinent to the topic that will now be introduced (but it's not the language everyone wants to learn, that is Italian...
> 
> Semantically, (IMO) it is saying that _English is the language you have to learn_.....
> Using "_may be_" just gives it a flavour that a *but...* is coming, so I don't think it's wrong to use _è_ in Italian..
> 
> I'd translate the first part as "_Come tutti di noi sappiamo, l'inglese è la lingua che si deve imparare *ma*_..."
> 
> Completely different from '_maybe_'.


 

You seem to be forgetting what the grammar books call "il futuro di probabilita'," namely the use of the future or future perfect tense not to indicate a future time but rather to describe a strong possibility in the present or past.


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## Alxmrphi

occhibelli said:


> You seem to be forgetting what the grammar books call "il futuro di probabilita'," namely the use of the future or future perfect tense not to indicate a future time but rather to describe a strong possibility in the present or past.



I'm sorry, but where is the future or future perfect in the example  ?
I am finding it hard to see how your post relates to mine, I didn't mention the future, and what I expressed was exactly an almost definite accepted present truth.


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## occhibelli

Alxmrphi said:


> I'm sorry, but where is the future or future perfect in the example  ?


 
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. Tenses do not always translate literally. "English may be" = "l'inglese sara'"


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## Alxmrphi

occhibelli said:


> Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. Tenses do not always translate literally. "English may be" = "l'inglese sara'"



But that's not the meaning.
Tenses don't translate literally and not many people say that that more than me here!
_
McDonalds may be a more well known company, but Burger King actually have more customers._

In the above (which I made up), it's a present meaning referring to an accepted truth, but adding an additional consequence.

I never commented on the future, or sarà, my sole post was to illustrate that you can use *is / è *in an Italian translation because it refers to the present in an English sentence (of an accepted truth, with intent to add an additional meaning).

I did not refer to (or even *sorry Elf* read that part of post 3) I was concentrating on Elisabetta's post.
I read 1, 2 & 4 in detail, and focused on the underlined part of post 3 (which I agree with).

I don't think I gave the impression of disagreeing with *sarà*, but I don't know how others viewed it.
This could certainly be an option to express the same as "may be", but again, this is not what I was commenting on in my post.


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## occhibelli

Alxmrphi said:


> But that's not the meaning.
> Tenses don't translate literally and not many people say that that more than me here!
> 
> _McDonalds may be a more well known company, but Burger King actually have more customers._
> 
> In the above (which I made up), it's a present meaning referring to an accepted truth, but adding an additional consequence.
> 
> I never commented on the future, or sarà, my sole post was to illustrate that you can use *is / è *in an Italian translation because it refers to the present in an English sentence (of an accepted truth, with intent to add an additional meaning).
> 
> I did not refer to (or even *sorry Elf* read that part of post 3) I was concentrating on Elisabetta's post.
> I read 1, 2 & 4 in detail, and focused on the underlined part of post 3 (which I agree with).
> 
> I don't think I gave the impression of disagreeing with *sarà*, but I don't know how others viewed it.
> This could certainly be an option to express the same as "may be", but again, this is not what I was commenting on in my post.


 
Perhaps our messages are getting crossed here, but both you and Elisabetta seem to be saying that "English may be" cannot be translated as "l'inglese sara'". I disagree, and I am sure the native speakers can back me up on this, but any first-year Italian textbook will tell you the same thing. "L'inglese e'"  removes any uncertainty from the equation.


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## Alxmrphi

> but both you and Elisabetta seem to be saying that "English may be"  cannot be translated as "l'inglese sara'"


Absolutely not! (sorry)
I never mentioned it, I never even thought about it, it never even occurred to me until you told me I had forgotten something, I don't even think Elisabetta made that point, nobody said *sarà* was wrong... we were talking about "may be" being translated as "*è*", and she said it wasn't, and I said it could be.... nobody mentioned *sarà*, I agree it's a good translation as, these sort of Romance languages (Spanish included) have a different way of expressing present relevance through the future tense (outside the realm of logical deduction).

I think you're viewing the sentence with more of an "English may become", which involves uncertainty, but in how I interpret "English may be the language that <blah>, but..." there is no uncertainty, like I said before, it's stating of generally accepted fact (which matches the Italian *è*, which is what I said I would use in a translation).

Apologies if I didn't make myself clear, I am trying to make it clear now what I meant.


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## Juri

It sounds right for me:
L'inglese e' la lingua che  per tutti e' necessario sapere, ma l'italiano e' quella che tutti vorrebbero imparare. Per questo.....


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## Alxmrphi

Juri said:


> It sounds right for me:
> L'inglese e' la lingua che  per tutti e' necessario sapere, ma l'italiano e' quella che tutti vorrebbero imparare. Per questo.....



Thanks Juri, this is similar to how I would have guessed it!


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## ElFrikiChino

Alright, I'm getting confused among all these posts, so maybe mine is totally irrelevant. I just wanted to say that *sarà* in this case (e.g. my translation) means *è. *In my opinion it adds a connotation: either the person who is speaking doesn't like English (or disagrees with the importance of the language), or he is already putting some stress on the "but" part (e.g. Sarà anche un film che ha vinto tanti premi, ma a me ha fatto schifo). However, I'm not sure the English sentence conveys these ideas as well.


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## Alxmrphi

ElFrikiChino, hai capito bene, *è *è giusta (e corresponde alla frase in inglese, se lo si mette accanto a delle frasi tipo "_Come sappiamo_.." ecc) e *sarà *è anche corretta (come traduzione del senso in inglese). L'inglese comunica l'accezione del '_putting some stress on the 'but' part_' che potrebbe essere resa in italiano con entrambe le forme. Tutto qui. L'altra cosa si tratta di un piccolo fraintendimento.


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## Astropolyp

Blackman said:


> L'Inglese sara' pure la lingua che tutti devono conoscere, ma e' l'Italiano quella che tutti vogliono imparare.



Secondo me questa traduzione è la migliore fra tutte quelle proposte.


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## Juri

Non sono d'accordo, semplicemente perche' il *sara'* puo' essere interpretato anche come un dubitativo.
Es.:Sara' forse per qualcuno, per me, no!


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## Astropolyp

Se è per questo anche il "may be'" della frase originale può avere valore dubitativo. _That may be good for you, but not for me._
Non mi sembra quello il punto. La traduzione di Blackman fila liscia come l'olio ed è chiarissima.


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## CPA

Blackman said:


> L'Inglese sara' pure la lingua che tutti devono conoscere, ma e' l'Italiano quella che tutti vogliono imparare.


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## TrentinaNE

Juri said:


> Non sono d'accordo, semplicemente perche' il *sara'* puo' essere interpretato anche come un dubitativo.


This is exactly what I was struggling to get across.  "English may be" indicates that the statement is not universally accepted as fact.  

Elisabetta


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## occhibelli

Astropolyp said:


> Secondo me questa traduzione è la migliore fra tutte quelle proposte.


 
The best version. No question.


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## L'equilibrista

My different 2 cents
"L'inglese può essere (anche) la lingua che tutti devono/dobbiamo conoscere, ma l'italiano è la lingua che la gente vuole imparare."


If you put "ma è l'italiano la lingua che..." it should have been "it's Italian the language people..." but it's ok, it just depends on the emphasis you want to put on it.

"L'inglese sarà (anche) la lingua..." 
It's correct because, as said above, "sarà" conveys the idea of possibility expressed by "may be".

We often use this "future" in Italian tor render certain English verbal forms for which sometimes the literal translation wouldn't be satisfying, like:
"It must be midnight and she hasn't come back yet."
_"Deve essere mezzanotte/Sarà mezzanotte e non è ancora tornata"_
"She's late; she must have missed the bus."
_"E' in ritardo; deve aver perso/avrà perso l'autobus"._


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## TrentinaNE

L'equilibrista said:


> If you put "ma è l'italiano la lingua che..." it should have been "it's Italian the language people..." but it's ok, it just depends on the emphasis you want to put on it.


Actually "it's Italian the language people want to learn" is not grammatically correct English. In Italian you can switch the subject and verb positions for emphasis. Not so in English. 

Elizabeth


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## L'equilibrista

TrentinaNE said:


> Actually "it's Italian the language people want to learn" is not grammatically correct English. In Italian you can switch the subject and verb positions for emphasis. Not so in English.
> 
> Elizabeth


 
Uh, ok! thanks a lot for the clarification, I thought it was possible in the other way round.
Ok, so both the translations are possible in Italian compared to the only way to say it in English.


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## wonderment

Alxmrphi said:


> _English may be_ ..... is a way of saying that while English *is *something, there's another point pertinent to the topic that will now be introduced (but it's not the language everyone wants to learn, that is Italian...
> 
> Semantically, (IMO) it is saying that _English is the language you have to learn_.....
> Using "_may be_" just gives it a flavour that a *but...* is coming, so I don't think it's wrong to use _è_ in Italian..


The _Oxford American Dictionary_ agrees with you, Alex: "used when admitting that something is so before making another, more important point : _they may have been old-fashioned, but they were excellent teachers._ [_Saranno anche stati all’antica, ma sono stati degli ottimi insegnanti. _.]"

A more obvious example:  _Bird bones may be hollow, but they are also heavy._ [_Le ossa degli uccelli sono certamente cave, ma (sono) anche molto solide._]

Anyhow, my friend (madrelingua) confirmed for me that _sarà _does convey this sense that the speaker concedes the truth of the first half of the sentence, but thinks the second half is the more important point.


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## OleMorris

L'inglese è probabilmente la lingua che tutti devono sapere, ma è l'italiano la lingua che la gente *vuole/sente il desiderio* di imparare.

Just another way to translate it. Though *l'inglese sarà... *sounds better and I think it's the most appropriate.


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## Sprazzo d'arancia

OleMorris, as someone already suggested, it's not "maybe" rather "may be" - It's subjunctive and the implication is that it IS, not that it might be. "It may be.... but..." means "Whilst it is..." At least that's what I meant with my original translation.


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## Astropolyp

Sprazzo d'arancia said:


> OleMorris, as someone already suggested, it's not "maybe" rather "may be" - It's subjunctive and the implication is that it IS, not that it might be. "It may be.... but..." means "Whilst it is..." At least that's what I meant with my original translation.



_L'inglese sarà_ doesn't necessarily mean that we are not sure about what English is! It all depends on the context. 

(1)- _L'inglese sarà pure originario dell'Inghilterra, ma oggi lo si parla in quasi tutti i paesi del mondo_. (here _sarà_ means *is*)

(2)- _L'inglese sarà pure una lingua difficile, ma io l'ho imparata in due mesi_. (here _sarà_ means *maybe is*)

I think in your sentence "l'inglese sarà" is OK.


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## teto_90

That's what my book (_Advanced Grammar in Use_, M. Hewings) says: "when we say that a person or thing compensates to some extent for a limitation or weakness by having another characteristic, we can use a pattern with *may/might not + bare infinitive...but...* or *may/might not have + past participle...but...*"

Ex: 

The painting may not be a masterpiece, but you have to admit that the colours are striking.
She might not have danced very gracefully, but she had a lot of energy and enthusiasm.
I'd translate these sentences into Italian with the future ("il dipinto non sarà un capolavoro, ma...", "non avrà ballato con molta grazia, ma..."), but the present tense conveys almost the same idea, even though I personally feel it fainter.


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