# EN: Il a insisté que je vienne



## hamlet

Comment peut-on traduire ce genre de constructions en anglais?

Il a insisté que je vienne/que je sois là
Il n'a rien dit malgré mon retard
Malgré le fait que son mari l'ait insulté, elle l'a accompagné
Ca te gêne si j'ouvre la fenêtre?

He insisted that I come? For me to come? On me to come? On me coming? On my coming?


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## englishman

"He insisted that I come"
"He insisted that I should come"
"He insisted on my coming"

"He insisted that I be there"
"He insisted that I should be there"
"He insisted on my being there"

Note that the last two examples of each group are often incorrectly rendered in English with "me" instead of "my".

then:

"He said nothing despite my lateness/my being late"
"Despite the fact that her husband had insulted her, she accompanied him"
"Do you mind if I open the window ?"


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## hamlet

So you could say "do you mind my opening the window?"

By the way what do you mean by "often incorrectly rendered in English"? Is it really incorrect or only an AE difference maybe? Who would be likely to say it with "ME"


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## englishman

hamlet said:


> So you could say "do you mind my opening the window?"


Yes, that's fine.



> By the way what do you mean by "often incorrectly rendered in English"? Is it really incorrect or only an AE difference maybe?


It is as "really incorrect" as anything can be. In the sentence above, "opening" is not a verb: it is a noun. It is a particular kind of noun called a gerund, which is a noun formed from the present participle of the verb. So if you say:

"Do you mind me opening the window ?"

it is incorrect for the same reason that it would be incorrect if you said:

"Do you mind me cat ?" rather than "Do you mind my cat ?"

However, it's such a common error that it will eventually be accepted as correct English at some point.



> Who would be likely to say it with "ME"


Everyone says it as some time or other, and many people say it exclusively. (but they usually don't say it in uppercase  )


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## givemeabeach

In British English you'd often use a subjunctive "he insisted I come" or "he insisted I be there when he arrived"


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## hamlet

englishman said:


> So if you say:
> 
> "Do you mind me opening the window ?"
> 
> it is incorrect for the same reason that it would be incorrect if you said:
> 
> "Do you mind me cat ?" rather than "Do you mind my cat ?"



I think there's another way to interpret it (correct me if I'm wrong) : the gerund is also a verb when you say "I'm opening the window", then I imagine you would mind me while opening the window. Make any sense at all?


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## englishman

hamlet said:


> I think there's another way to interpret it (correct me if I'm wrong) : the gerund is also a verb when you say "I'm opening the window", then I imagine you would mind me while opening the window. Make any sense at all?



If you say:

"I am opening"

then I don't think that you would normally classify "opening" as a gerund; it's merely the present participle of "to open", and you're using it in the progressive form of the present tense. To my mind, a gerund has to be a verb playing the role of a noun. Maybe others would disagree.


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## ayupshiplad

hamlet said:


> I think there's another way to interpret it (correct me if I'm wrong) : the gerund is also a verb when you say "I'm opening the window", then I imagine you would mind me while opening the window. Make any sense at all?


 
The gerund is a verbal noun (as far as I am aware). There is a difference between the gerund, the gerundive and the present participle, a subject on which I should be able to talk about at length, but unfortunately do not feel equipped to do so  

I did a search of the English Only forum, but there seems to be no thread on purely on the difference between these. But then again, maybe I just can't use the search properly! I would suggest you check out http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=509454&highlight=gerund -it's quite interesting!  Otherwise, start a new thread. I'm sure you'll get pretty comprehensive answers. Good luck!


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## geostan

hamlet said:


> Comment peut-on traduire ce genre de constructions en anglais?
> 
> Il a insisté que je vienne/que je sois là
> Il n'a rien dit malgré mon retard
> Malgré le fait que son mari l'ait insulté, elle l'a accompagné
> Ca te gêne si j'ouvre la fenêtre?
> 
> He insisted that I come? For me to come? On me to come? On me coming? On my coming?



Peut-on dire "Il a insisté que je vienne."? J'ai toujours dit: "Il a insisté pour que je vienne." Quant aux traductions, les suggestions de englishman sont parfaites.


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## hamlet

Yes you can both are correct. I would be more likely to say it without "pour", in spoken language at least (anyway, in any event?)

Besides, to put it differently, if you say "do you mind his opening the window" you should also say "do you mind John*'s *opening the window, don't you think?


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## geostan

hamlet said:


> Yes you can both are correct. I would be more likely to say it without "pour", in spoken language at least (anyway, in any event?)
> 
> Besides, to put it differently, if you say "do you mind his opening the window" you should also say "do you mind John*'s *opening the window, don't you think?



Correct.

BTW, you might be interested in this thread:

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=11364

Cheers!


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## hamlet

geostan said:


> Correct.



what were you actually referring to? John's opening?


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## geostan

hamlet said:


> what were you actually referring to? John's opening?



Both. Since opening is a gerund, it requires an adjective or adjective equivalent as a modifier. Still, in every-day parlance the incorrect forms are heard quite commonly.

Cheers!


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## tilt

_Insister que _sounds totally incorrect to me!
And the CNTRL does say this is an indirect transitive verb.


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## itka

tilt said:


> _Insister que _sounds totally incorrect to me!
> And the CNTRL does say this is an indirect transitive verb.



I completely agree with you, tilt ! It's not possible to say "il a insisté que je vienne". It sounds like a mistake made by a foreigner...


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