# make myself (be) understood



## markov2

I want to use passive voice and I want to know which of the next sentences is correct:
A) I can make myself *understood (by someone)* in most situations.
B) I can make my self *be understood (by someone) *in most situations.
Regards


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## Sprache

The first one.


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## chajadan

Maybe Sprache knows better than I do as English grammar is not my strong point even though I'm a native speaker too.

I would say that both of these sentences sound fine if you say them:

1. I can make myself understood in most situations.
2. I can make myself be understood in most situations.

If you want to add "by someone", then only the version with "be understood" sounds right to me:

2b. I can make myself be understood by someone in most situations.

Of course, in unguarded speech people say all kinds of things that aren't likely to be misunderstood, so if you happened to say "I can make myself understood by someone in most situations", I might not even notice.


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## elianecanspeak

Going just by my native ear and not consulting grammar rules, I agree with Sprache :
* I can make myself understood in most situations.*

I have heard the *"make myself be understood" *version, but it sounds redundant.

"Make myself understood" parallels *"make myself clear"*.   I have never heard "make myself *be* clear".


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## chajadan

I agree that we wouldn't say "make myself be clear", but "to be clear" is not a passive form that exists (we would have to say something like "to be seen clearly"), whereas "to be understood" does. Therefore, when we are working with a base structure of "I can make myself ____ in most situations", only one of them ~can~ support the form with 'be' inserted.

To me, "make myself be understood" is not redundant at all; it is reflecting the choice of a verb form over an adjectival one.

I am curious elianecanspeak, which one sounds better to you?:

1. make myself seen clearly
2. make myself be seen clearly


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## elianecanspeak

Aha! I am throwing away grammar rules and just going by ear tonight, so I am happy to answer your question and not worry about being consistent. 

2. I was able to *make myself be seen clearly* by removing the glass from the windows so that there would be no glare from the sun.

But I would only say "make myself heard clearly"

ps: It is the joint use of the two verbs "make" and "be" that sounds a little off.  Is there a deeper structure that is  "make myself *to be* seen, heard, understood?"


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## chajadan

I am also going by ear, and I applaud your openness to whatever sounds right given the context! (I've heard that foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds...lol)

I would say this, that we make ourselves red, or make ourselves tired, or make ourself <insert adjective here>, but that the underlying structure when it regards others is that we make ourselves be heard, make ourselves be seen, make ourselves be <insert passive verb form here>

Now mind you, "I made myself heard" sounds perfectly fine to me, but when I'm forced to choose from the following two:

1. I made myself heard by them.
2. I made myself be heard by them.

...I'm forced to choose number 2. In "I made myself heard", the important part seems to be simply the descriptive nature, the haveness of having been heard, whereas in "I made myself be heard by them.", those who did the hearing are directly in play, we are forced to mention that we "were" heard by them.

Just my ideas. Again, I'm not consulting a grammar reference either.


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## elianecanspeak

Do you think that  "heard" can be used in an adjectival way? Like being an '"accountable" person? I _have_ heard "I am a redeemed person".  I know we never say "I am a "heard person", but what about "the oft _heard__ tale_" or "the seldom _seen _former _star_ was photographed . . . "

There does seem to be a kind of parallel structure in being clear *(to* others), heard (*by* others), etc., even though it not really a passive.  More like a weird kind of indirect object that is associated with the object of certain prepositions..

"To be clear"  and "to be understood;  "to make myself clear" and "make myself understood" -- they seem so parallel -- clear *to* and understood *by* . . .


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## Forero

Sentence A is fine. To me, sentence B requires a _to_:

B'. _I can make myself to be understood in most situations.
_ 
This really seems an odd place for passive voice, and I would normally say something more like:

_I can get people to understand me in most situations.
_


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## chajadan

elianecanspeak said:


> Do you think that  "heard" can be used in an adjectival way?
> [...]
> what about "the oft _heard__ tale_" or "the seldom _seen _former _star_ was photographed . . . "
> [...]
> "To be clear"  and "to be understood;  "to make myself clear" and "make myself understood" -- they seem so parallel -- clear *to* and understood *by* . . .



Yes I do think "heard" can be used in an adjectival way. My original assertion was that, in a sentence like "I can make myself (be) heard", the choice of whether or not to insert "be" depends on whether you have an adjectival or verbal perspective in mind, and therefore is not a redundant addition if present. Epithets like "an oft heard tale" generally leave the hearers simply implied and non-specific, and certainly not highlighted even if the hearers are known to the reader. When we have in mind or hope to imply that others (and perhaps specific others) were the perceivers, they become the agents, and only verbs have agents - i.e. if there are perceivers to be mentioned, the insertion of "be" is more likely to sound correct to me.

And again, "I made myself heard." sounds perfect to me, but "I made myself heard by them" sounds to me like it needs the "be" inserted.


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## chajadan

Forero said:


> [...]
> To me, sentence B requires a _to_:
> 
> B'. _I can make myself to be understood in most situations.
> _



The sentence sounds funny to me with the "to" in it. I'd be surprised if that were formally correct. Though, I've been surprised before


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## sound shift

In my usage and the usage I hear around me:

"I can make myself understood in most situations" 
"I can make myself be understood in most situations" 
"I can make myself understood *by* him/her/most people/etc" 
"I can make myself understood *to* him/her/most people/etc"


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## chajadan

I was just curious, sound shift, if you have references to back those up or if you're just going on what sounds right like we've been doing so far. In your examples I happen to disagree with the second, the third sounds better to me with "be" inserted and the fourth sounds like improper English. Maybe there is a BE/AmE difference at play with the second and fourth ones - I'm not familiar with a lot of those types of differences.


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## sound shift

chajadan said:


> I was just curious, sound shift, if you have references to back those up or if you're just going on what sounds right like we've been doing so far. In your examples I happen to disagree with the second, the third sounds better to me with "be" inserted and the fourth sounds like improper English. Maybe there is a BE/AmE difference at play with the second and fourth ones - I'm not familiar with a lot of those types of differences.


You're right. I should have made clear that the examples describe my usage and the usage I hear around me. I have now amended my earlier post.


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## markov2

Thanks to everyone, now I think both of these sentences can be used in English; syntactically the verb can be replaced by other past participle (of course the meaning is changed) and the subject (i.e. "by someone") can be omitted. Which of the next two forms is more formal? 
1) I can make myself understood (heard, etc) in most situations.
2) I can make myself be understood (heard, etc) in most situations.
Sorry for so many questions.


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## elianecanspeak

markov2 said:


> ]. Which of the next two forms is more formal?
> 1) I can make myself understood (heard, etc) in most situations.
> 2) I can make myself be understood (heard, etc) in most situations.



In my dialect of US English I would use only the first example, without the "be" in either formal or more casual situations.  The second, with the "be", sounds a little awkward to me and I would always avoid it.  But this may differ in other dialects of English.


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## chajadan

The second one sounds more formal to me and I would choose it in a paper. Which one is actually more proper I'll have to leave to the learned grammarians.


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## Forero

I would only use A in a paper, not B. _Be_ is not normally something you do, especially not as part of the passive voice:
_
Did you be rich? 
Were you rich? 
_
_make myself be rich 
__make myself rich 

Did you be understood? 
make myself be understood 
make myself understood 

__make myself understand 
_


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## chajadan

Forero said:


> Did you be understood?
> make myself be understood
> make myself understood



"Did you be understood?" is indeed improper, the correct formation being "Were you understood?" - a passive construction with the proper placement of the verb 'be' at the front. 



> Be is not normally something you do, especially not as part of the passive voice


You were right in that "be" and "do" are incompatible - "be" is necessary for a question in a passive construction (as well as with active progressive constructions), while "do" is not allowed, as it denotes active voice.

As for the second quoted fragment you marked wrong, I see nothing wrong with it. I wonder Forero, which of the following two sounds better to you:

1) make myself be understood by you
2) make myself understood by you


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## roanheads

A sentence like " I make myself understood " implies " I make an effort to be understood, -- from whence originates the " be "


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## elianecanspeak

chajadan said:


> 1) make myself be understood by you
> 2) make myself understood by you



I still haven't figured out how to make the xs and check marks, but I would tend to put an "x" by #1 and a check by #2, probably for the same reason that I would accept "I'm going to Louisiana *to see* my true-love" and reject "I'm going to Louisiana *for to see* my true-love: in Chomskyan terms, because the deep structure (for to see) has evolved into the surface structure (to see).


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## markov2

Roanheads argument sounds logic to me. He says:
if  "I make myself understood" then "I make an effort to be understood".
Therefore, I could say:
"Even though *he always makes an effort to be understood* nobody realizes what he says".


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## elianecanspeak

by Anthony Trollope - 2002 - Fiction - 816 pages
'MY DEAR PAUL- 'I think that perhaps we hardly made ourselves understood to each other yesterday . . ."  

"With great difficulty we made ourselves understood to one of the people"

"We never made ourselves understood to them"


Have we been missing an important element in this discussion?

I think that the reason that I find _"made myself understood *by* [someone]"_ is that _"made myself understood *to* [someone]"_ might sometimes be more appropriate.


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## Forero

To me there are really just two ways to complete "make myself _":

1. "Make myself <something>", where <something> describes me after I have made myself whatever, e.g. "make myself happy", "make myself mayor". "Make myself understood" fits this pattern. (I would not call this passive voice though.)

2. "Make myself <do something>", where <do something> is a certain type of verb and any appropriate complement(s), e.g. "make myself eat", "make myself fly". Action verbs are good candidates for <do something>, but passive perfective phrases such as "have been understood" are not. As I see it, most meanings of "have" and "be" just don't fit, including any with a perfective aspect or passive voice:

_make myself have a car_ 
_make myself have eaten _
_make myself be tired_ 
_make myself be understood _

Exceptions are possible, such as "make myself be good while visiting my grandmother", but passive voice just does not seem suitable to me except with a _to_ to make the infinitive into a kind of <something> rather than a kind of <do something>:

_I made myself to be understood_.
Now I am to be understood.

This construction with _to_ may seem strange, but to me "made myself be understood" is stranger.


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## Eddie P

As trying to make sense on different sentences I was comparing these quotations.

I can *be understood by* everyone most of the time.
I can *be heard by* anyone right now.
I would *be able to be understood *in this speech.
I wouldn't *be able to be understood by* you guys if I had spoken too fast.
To *be understood* I have to speak clearly and slowly.
I can't *be understood by* you most of the time.

If we compare "*I make myself be understood by anyone*" sounds right to me about "*redundancy*" if we write something like "*Am I understood by you guys?*" We use the verb "*to be*" and the adjective "*understood*" form and it sounds okay to me. I used Google translator and both are translated okay in many languages.


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## Eddie P

By doing some comparison, trying to be more precise and use correct grammar rules, I came out with these sentences, "*Make me understood*", "*Make me understand*" "*Made me understood*", "*Made me understand*" "*Make me be understood*", "*Make me be understand*" "*Make myself understood*", and "*Make myself be understand"*to use all correct and incorrect forms. Also switching from the verb "*to make*" to the verb "*to help*" and changing adjective from "*understood*" to "*loved*"

Pay close attention to these sentences

You "*make me understood*"      (incorrect) 
You* "make me understand*"      (correct)   (in the present form)
You "*made me understood*"      (incorrect)
You *"made me understand*"     (correct)   (in the past form)
You "*make me understood*"      (incorrect) 
You "*make me be understood*"  (correct)  (in the present form) 
You *"make me be understand*" (incorrect) 
You "*make me be mad"           *   (incorrect) 
You *"make me* mad"                 (correct) (in the present form)
You "*make me be like that*"          (correct) (in the present form)

You "*made me understand*"      (correct)  (past form)
You "*made me understood*"      (incorrect) 
You "*made me be understood*"  (correct)  (past form)
You "*made me be understand*"  (incorrect)
You "*help me understood*"        (incorrect) 
You "*help me be understood*"    (correct)   (present form)
You "*make me be understood*"  (correct)  (present form)

You "*helped me be understood*" (correct) (past form)
You "*helped me understood*"     (incorrect)
You *"helped me understand*"     (correct)  (past form)

I "*helped myself understood*"      (incorrect)
I "*helped myself be understood*"  (correct) (past form)
I "*helped myself understand*"      (correct) (past form)
I "*helped myself be understand*"  (incorrect)

You *make me be understood* and I also *make myself be understood *(correct)  (present form)
You *made me be understood* and I also *made myself be understood *(correct)  (past form)

You *make me understand* and I also *make myself understand*          (correct) (present form)
You *made me understand* and I also *made myself understand *         (correct) (past form)
You *made me understood* (incorrect) and I *made myself understood* (correct) (past form)
You *made me be understood* and I also *made myself be understood* (correct) (past form)

I *made myself loved* only for her.
I *made myself be loved by* everyone at work eventually. They didn't like me in the beginning.
I *wanted to be loved only by* her.
*To be loved by* her, I had to *make an effort myself*.
I have *to make *an effort *myself to be loved by* her.
I* make myself be loved* *by *someone whenever I propose it.

I strongly believe there is a difference between "*I make myself loved*" and "*I make myself be loved*" and same thing with "I *make myself understood*" and "I *make myself be understood*."

I *made myself* *look understood by* moving my face up and down but I didn't understand the teacher.
I *made myself look* that I *understood* *by* moving my face up and down but I didn't understand anything.
I *made myself* *be understood by* them but just for my great effort and all repeated lessons I gave.
I *make myself look understood* to the teacher if not, he will repeat the whole boring lesson again.
I *make myself look* that I *understand* when she gives me information but she speaks too fast.
Sometimes I *make myself look* that I *understood* when she talks to me, but I don't understand her.
When I'm in the class, I *make myself look* that I *understand* to avoid critics or judging from my friends.

Please, correct me on any sentence if I'm wrong. I would appreciate it.


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## Eddie P

This is how I have heard "*by*" in the U.S. and how I was taught to determine if using "*to*" or "*for*" would take the correct possition when structuring a sentence, using different verbs and making all kind of combinations to come with good conclusions. 

I want *to be understood* *by* all my spectators.
I wanted *to be understood by* my team, but they were all distracted.
I was *understood by* all of them, but you.
Am I *understood by* you?
I'm never *understood by* them.
*For* you *to be understood by *my parents, you need to be very convincing in your explaination.
Your language is hard *to be understood by* most americans.
I *understood* my teacher *by* the way he explained it.

I wanted *to be seen by* my fans on the TV show.
I wanted *to be seen to* my fans on the TV show.
I want *to be heard by* the judge and my attorney.
I want *to be heard to* the judge and my attorney. (incorrect)
I wanted *to be seen by* my ex-girlfriend since a long time ago.
I wanted *to be seen to* my ex-girlfriend since a long time ago. (incorrect)
I wanted *to be kissed by* her beautiful lips.
I wanted* to be kissed to* her beautiful lips. (incorrect)
I didn't want *to be distracted by* her in the class, but unfortunately I was.
I didnt' want *to be distracted to* her in the class, but unfortunately I was. (incorrect)

*By* *listening* to his song I fell asleep.
*To* *listening* to his song I fell asleep.
*For* *listeing* to his song I fell asleep.

Thanks *for* *listening*.
Thanks *for* *listening to* me.
*For being *so dumb, now I have to pay the consequences.
*For exercising *so much, now I feel so tired.
It just happened that to me *for being* so nice to her.
*For being* the best of my class, I got an award.
Thank you *for being* so understanding.
Thank you *for* *understanding *my situation.
I want to thank her *for making *the best effort.

*For* you *to understand* me, I have to repeat myself so many times.
*To* you *to understand* me, I have to repeat myself so many times.
*By* you *to understand* me, I have to repeat myself so many times.
*For* me *to understand* your language, I have to take some classes first.
*For* them *to understand* this teacher, they don't have to be distracted at all.
*For* her *to be understood*, she has to speak louder and slower.
*For *him* to understand* you, he has to be focused.

I brought this present *for *you and your family.
He bought this gift* for* me.
I would do everything *for *her.
All I do is work *for* my wife and my kids.

*To* me, he *understood* *by* the way he was answering my questions.
*To* me, it seems that she didn't *understand* it.
This book is confusing *to* me and I think it won't *be understood by* my class.
*To* me, this can be *understood by *all my co-workers.
It seems *to* me that she is *understood by* the teacher but not *by* the classmates.
It appears *to* me that he is not *understood by* them.
*To* my opinion, she was *understood by* most of the public.


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## Eddie P

This is how I've heard it on videos from professionals.

Sometimes speaking too fast can make it harder *to be understood*.


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## FromPA

I think both sentences are grammatically correct (with slightly different nuance), but I have to nitpick and ask, is this really a passive construction?  "I can make" seems active to me.  It seems it would have to be "I am understood" to be truly passive.

Edit:  I just found an incredible google tool in another post that made me change my mind about "make myself be understood."  There's not a single instance of it in a search of both AmEng or BrEng books according to this NGRAM


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## SevenDays

The way I see it...
In (a), _I can make myself understood by someone_, "understood by someone" is a *passive construction* (active: _someone understands_)
In (b), _I can make myself (to) be understood by someone_, "be understood by someone" is a *perfect construction*, and not technically passive. There is no _active_ equivalent because the perfect construction is already active. The effect of "be understood" is that (b) has the feel of a soft imperative (a more emphatic imperative would be_ I can make people understand me_). The passive construction and the perfect construction have much in common: they use the past participle (here, "understood"), they involve an agent ("by someone"), and they suggest _completion_ ("understand" as completed, finished, and thus "understood"). However, I think the "(to) be understood" perfect construction may just be archaic. 
Cheers


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