# Urdu: Business



## Todd The Bod

This may not be worth a whole thread, but I just wanted to touch on this briefly.  I see everyone using "_dhandaa"_ for business here, and I had always heard "kaaroobaar".  Is there any rule for when each is used?  Are they interchangeable?


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## Birdcall

I'd say dhandhaa is more like occupation, like peshaa (which I'd say is more of an Urdu word than a Hindi word), or naukrii. kaarobaar means business in the sense of finance, like the shuddh Hindi word vyaapaar (literally 'commerce' I believe).


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## panjabigator

Birdcall said:


> I'd say dhandhaa is more like occupation, like peshaa (which I'd say is more of an Urdu word than a Hindi word), or naukrii. kaarobaar means business in the sense of finance, like the shuddh Hindi word vyaapaar (literally 'commerce' I believe).



Well said!  They are not exactly synonymous but there are some contexts where they can be used interchangeably.  

دھندا could mean "trade" also, no?  

دھندا اس کا پرانا has a different ring to than کاروبار اس کا پرانا, semantically.  

For the same of completion, there is also کام کاج, which can also mean business or livelihood.


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## Cilquiestsuens

*kaarobaar* = business.

*kaarobaarii* *Hazraat* = businessmen (polite term, used in formal language)

*tijaarat* = business, commerce, trade.

*taajir* = merchant, businessman, trader (plural = *taajiraan*)

*dhandaa *= is mostly (although not exclusively) used for illegal businesses (prostitution, drug trafficking, smugling, etc)


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## Todd The Bod

Immensely helpful, Cilqui.  Thanks.  How would "drug trafficking business" or "smuggling business" then be rendered if you will?


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## Faylasoof

Cilquiestsuens said:


> *
> kaarobaar* = business.
> 
> *kaarobaarii* *Hazraat* = businessmen (polite term, used in  formal language)
> 
> *tijaarat* = business, commerce, trade.
> 
> *taajir* = merchant, businessman, trader (plural = *taajiraan*)
> 
> *dhandaa *= is mostly (although not exclusively)  used for illegal businesses (prostitution, drug trafficking, smugling,  etc)



Quite! But also this (post#8):



Faylasoof said:


> _I don’t think we should start discussing *dhandaa* in any detail in this thread. But briefly, *in Urdu it is has many meanings, including <squabble / quarrel>*. _


 

 میں كس دھندے اورجنجال میں مُلَوَّث ہو گیا

 _mai.n kis__ *dhande *aur* janjaal* mei.n mulawwath ho gayaa?_

_What__ *squabble or shady dealings* and *cares / anxieties* have I got involved in?_


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## Cilquiestsuens

Todd The Bod said:


> Immensely helpful, Cilqui. Thanks. How would "drug trafficking business" or "smuggling business" then be rendered if you will?


 
To tell you the truth I don't really know exactly how to say smuggle in proper Urdu.... I've always heard and read sentences such as:

*وہ منشیات اسمگل کرتے ہوۓ پکڑا گیا*

The English to Urdu dictionary I have gives *ghaaT-maari*, but frankly I've never heard it and don't really know how to use it....

Does any one know?


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## Faylasoof

Cilquiestsuens said:


> To tell you the truth I don't really know exactly how to say smuggle in proper Urdu.... I've always heard and read sentences such as:
> 
> *وہ منشیات اسمگل کرتے ہوۓ پکڑا گیا*
> 
> The English to Urdu dictionary I have gives *ghaaT-maari*, but frankly I've never heard it and don't really know how to use it....
> 
> Does any one know?



It’s actually quite funny we don’t use native words for _smuggling / smuggler_ when we are surrounded by them. I guess the native words themselves have been smuggled out of daily speech!

 …and yes *smuggling*is a kind of_ *dhandaa*_, but I agree with cilqui that we hardly hear _ghaaT maarii_ گھاٹ ماری= _maHSuul chorii_ محصول چوری = smuggling – in Urdu 

 Mostly it is _smagling_ سمگلنگ / _ismagling_ اسمگلنگ / _smaglar_ سمگلر/ _ismaglar_ اسمگلر.

 منشیات_ manshiyaat_ = narcotics / drugs


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## lcfatima

I feel I have heard the expression 'dhanday pe' to mean involved in illegal activities.

As in 'Voh dhanday pe hai.'


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## lcfatima

Also heard illegal activities rendered as 'haraam baazi.'


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## Birdcall

In the Hindi dialect I know (Mumbai) smuggling is "taskari" and prostitution is "dalaalii" (this word also has several meanings though, like dhandhaa)


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## Cilquiestsuens

Birdcall said:


> In the Hindi dialect I know (Mumbai) smuggling is "taskari" and prostitution is "dalaalii" (this word also has several meanings though, like dhandhaa)


 
Yes, I've heard the first one, *taskari* and no doubt this is a proper Hindi word, I mean not specifically a Mumbai one. Same for the second one...

In Urdu, *dalaal* is the 'middle man' in the prostitution busisness (the p*mp) which is simplified to *dalla* in Punjabi. A very common insult too.


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## Birdcall

Right, and bhaRvaa is a more colloquial word for (ranDii) dalaal (sheyar dalaal means stockbroker, the word dalaal doesn't necessarily mean pimp but I believe bhaRvaa does)


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## BP.

1-
_dallaal _means other things first! To begin with, exponent, argument, rationale. Example "_yeh us amr ki durustagii par dalalat kartaa hae_", "_miaa.n ko2ii mantaqii daliil pesh kiji2e_". Then, 'something that leads towards another'(think ladders in snakes-and-ladders), link, from which we get the sense  'broker'. You guys are restricting yourself to the corollarical meaning 'one who brokers between yourself and a prostitute'.

There's an Arabic saying about the _faSaaHat o balaaghat_ of locution: "_qalla wa dalla_", which translates into Urdu as : "_[shaniid woh jo] qaliil ho aur baa daliil ho_".


2-


Cilquiestsuens said:


> ...
> *taajir* = merchant, businessman, trader (plural = *taajiraan*)
> ...


We use _tujjaar _too, in fact I use it exclusively over taajiraan.



3-
I've only heard _d.handa _as synonymous to _kaar_, _pesha, kaam _etc, in our city almost all (Bengali) household help say things like "_meraa mard (_meaning _shauhar) d.hande peh gayaa hae_". I don't know how much that corresponds to Urdu that is _murawwaj ba ashraafia_!


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## Faylasoof

BelligerentPacifist said:


> 2-
> We use _tujjaar _too, in fact I use it exclusively over taajiraan.
> 
> 3-
> I've only heard _d.handa _as synonymous to _kaar_, _pesha, kaam _etc, in our city almost all (Bengali) household help say things like "_meraa mard (_meaning _shauhar) d.hande peh gayaa hae_". I don't know how much that corresponds to Urdu that is _murawwaj ba ashraafia_!






Cilquiestsuens said:


> *
> kaarobaar* = business.
> 
> *kaarobaarii* *Hazraat* = businessmen (polite term, used in  formal language)
> 
> *tijaarat* = business, commerce, trade.
> 
> *taajir* = merchant, businessman, trader (plural = *taajiraan*)
> 
> *dhandaa *= is mostly (although not exclusively) used for illegal  businesses (prostitution, drug trafficking, smugling, etc)



We use _tujjaar_ (Arabic plural) for traders & businessmen and the Prakrit  pluralization _taajiroo.n_ (genitive / dative ..). 
_taajiraan_ is  one of two froms of Persian pluralisation and is heard less.  I'm sorry I missed it ealrier! 

 While in Urdu دھندا* dhandaa* formally does mean کارو بار* kaar o baar *<= business > and مشغلہ* mashghalah* <= occupation>, the way _we_ use it in our speech is in a negative sense of <unlawful / illegal activities> or <squabble / quarell> - as explained above (posts # 6 & 8) 

But all this is quite different from our use of دَلّال_ dallaal_,  دَلالَۃ  / دَلالَت_ dalaalat_ (= pointing, guiding, indication etc.) and دَلِیل_ daliil_ (= proof, reason etc.).
These come from Arabic, as BP says, where the verb: دَلَّ_ dalla_ = to show, demonstrate, lead, guide, direct, show that way, etc. 
From this we have دَلّال_ dallaal_ = auctioneer, broker, middleman, jobber, agent. - same meanings as in Arabic and these are the _primary meanings in Urdu_. 

 However, the _secondary meaning_ of دَلّال_ dallaal_ is indeed <_pimp_> and this meaning overlaps with the way _we _use *dhandaa*, as indicated earlier (shady / illegal activities). Otherwise we do distinguish between the two. In fact, the first meaning _we_ think of when we hear دَلّال* dallaal* is an *auctioneer*.

Obviously there may regional difference here but the above is very much our understanding of theses words.


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## Cilquiestsuens

Faylasoof said:


> We use _tujjaar_ (Arabic plural) for traders & businessmen and the Prakrit pluralization _taajiroo.n_ (genitive / dative ..).
> _taajiraan_ is one of two froms of Persian pluralisation and is heard less. I'm sorry I missed it ealrier!


 
I would bet the Persian plural is much much much more used in modern day Pakistan than its Arabic *jam3ut taksiir*, *tujjaar* almost unknown. The simple reason is the so many and powerful lobbying associations of shopkeepers / businessmen present in the country are known as *anjuman-e-taajiraan*.



Faylasoof said:


> While in Urdu دھندا* dhandaa* formally does mean کارو بار* kaar o baar *<= business > and مشغلہ* mashghalah* <= occupation>, the way _we_ use it in our speech is in a negative sense of <unlawful / illegal activities> or <squabble / quarell> - as explained above (posts # 6 & 8)
> 
> But all this is quite different from our use of دَلّال_ dallaal_, دَلالَۃ / دَلالَت_ dalaalat_ (= pointing, guiding, indication etc.) and دَلِیل_ daliil_ (= proof, reason etc.).
> These come from Arabic, as BP says, where the verb: دَلَّ_ dalla_ = to show, demonstrate, lead, guide, direct, show that way, etc.
> From this we have دَلّال_ dallaal_ = auctioneer, broker, middleman, jobber, agent. - same meanings as in Arabic and these are the _primary meanings in Urdu_.
> 
> However, the _secondary meaning_ of دَلّال_ dallaal_ is indeed <_pimp_> and this meaning overlaps with the way _we _use *dhandaa*, as indicated earlier (shady / illegal activities). Otherwise we do distinguish between the two. In fact, the first meaning _we_ think of when we hear دَلّال* dallaal* is an *auctioneer*.
> 
> Obviously there may regional difference here but the above is very much our understanding of theses words.


 
I am pleased by the discussions we are having in this forum they are really informative, enriching but I always wonder how we end up discussing the words derived from *dalla/yadullu* in a thread on business... That is kind of systematic with us... and we've even drifted farther away than this one more than once ....


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## Faylasoof

Cilquiestsuens said:


> I would bet the Persian plural is much much much more used in modern day Pakistan .


 
Perhaps you can provide us with data on this by PM! I assume you are still there.



Cilquiestsuens said:


> I am pleased by the discussions we are having in this forum they are really informative, enriching but I always wonder how we end up discussing the words derived from *dalla/yadullu* in a thread on business... That is kind of systematic with us... and we've even drifted farther away than this one more than once ....


 
I'm glad you appreciate these discussions. As for drifting, I don't entirely agree. You mentioned *dalaal *(post#12) saying it is to do with _pimpimg_ , which in _our speech_ is often euphemistically referred to as *dhanda* or *, *by others, even *business*! I merely clarified that it is *dallaal* (coming from the verb _dalla_) and it has a broader usage in Urdu than what you are suggesting.


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## Cilquiestsuens

Dear Faylas, this was not a criticism, and this was not aimed at you.... I was jokingly noticing that we all are 'major digressers' and that's good too.... I just find it a pity that this interesting discussion on dallaal, mudallal, daliil, dalaalii, dalaalat, will be hard to find on the forums and it will only reach those looking for the word business.....

As for the numerous *anjuman-e-tajiran*, they are so many in Pakistan, just google it (here) and you will understand why the Persian plural is more used in PK.


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## Faylasoof

Cilquiestsuens said:


> ....
> As for the numerous *anjuman-e-tajiran*, they are so many in Pakistan, just google it (here) and you will understand why the Persian plural is more used in PK.



Cilqui, I never doubted that this term is used. Just the frequency of _tajiraan_ versus the other alternatives including the use of Prakrit pluralisation in everyday speech. Google searches don't give a true statistical use, unfortunately.

Anyway, here are more terms for business /trade in Urdu, some rare, others not so:

_beopaar_ بِیْوپار  / _len den _لین دین  / _mu3aamalat_ معاملت  or _mu3aamalah_ مُعامَلَہ / _xariid o faroxt _خریدوفروخت / _suadaagarii_ سوداگری


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## Sheikh_14

Faylasoof said:


> It’s actually quite funny we don’t use native words for _smuggling / smuggler_ when we are surrounded by them. I guess the native words themselves have been smuggled out of daily speech!
> 
> …and yes *smuggling*is a kind of_ *dhandaa*_, but I agree with cilqui that we hardly hear _ghaaT maarii_ گھاٹ ماری= _maHSuul chorii_ محصول چوری = smuggling – in Urdu
> 
> Mostly it is _smagling_ سمگلنگ / _ismagling_ اسمگلنگ / _smaglar_ سمگلر/ _ismaglar_ اسمگلر.
> 
> منشیات_ manshiyaat_ = narcotics / drugs




Just out of interest is محصول an Urdu equivalent for tarrif ??? Since smugglers do in fact evade duty payments etc. Whereas, chorii in both Urdu and Hindi is a synonym for evasion i.e. Tax chor.


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## Alfaaz

*Context:*

اس کے بدلے میں پرمٹ ملے گا تجھے، اک نیا کارخانہ لگائے گا تو
چار دن لوگ باتیں کریں گے مگر، ساری دنیا سے عزّت کرائے گا تو
لوگ کہتے رہیں، آج *دلّال *ہے! بیچ ڈالو یہ نیلام کا مال ہے
کیا حسیں جسم ہے، دل نشیں چال ہے

سیف الدین سیف یا مسرور انور از اک گناہ اور سہی - ۱۹۷۵​


> دلّال
> 
> ۱. کسی امر یا شے کی طرف دلالت یا رہنمائی کرنے والا ، نشان دہی کرنے والا ، بابع اور مشتری میں واسطہ ہو کر خرید و فروخت کرنے والا ، آڑتیا ، ایجنٹ .
> 
> ۲. وہ شخض جو مردوں کو عورتوں سے ملانے کا کام کرے . بھڑوا ، دیوث ، کُٹنا .​


*Questions:* 

Are دلّال and دلّالہ limited to usage with the secondary meaning in modern Urdu or can they also be used with the primary meaning? 
Would the following sentences be considered appropriate? 

If not, what other words are used for _agent_?


اس نے تربیتی کورس مکمل کیا تھا. لہٰذا وہ مستند دلّال ہے.
مکان کی خریداری کے سلسلے میں خاتون نے ریئل ایسٹیٹ دلّالہ سے رابطہ کیا.​


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## Qureshpor

Alfaaz said:


> *Context:*
> 
> اس کے بدلے میں پرمٹ ملے گا تجھے، اک نیا کارخانہ لگائے گا تو
> چار دن لوگ باتیں کریں گے مگر، ساری دنیا سے عزّت کرائے گا تو
> لوگ کہتے رہیں، آج *دلّال *ہے! بیچ ڈالو یہ نیلام کا مال ہے
> کیا حسیں جسم ہے، دل نشیں چال ہے
> 
> سیف الدین سیف یا مسرور انور از اک گناہ اور سہی - ۱۹۷۵​
> *Questions:*
> 
> Are دلّال and دلّالہ limited to usage with the secondary meaning in modern Urdu or can they also be used with the primary meaning?
> Would the following sentences be considered appropriate?
> 
> If not, what other words are used for _agent_?
> 
> 
> اس نے تربیتی کورس مکمل کیا تھا. لہٰذا وہ مستند دلّال ہے.
> مکان کی خریداری کے سلسلے میں خاتون نے ریئل ایسٹیٹ دلّالہ سے رابطہ کیا.​


In a language, sometimes words get "compartmentalised". dhandaa was no doubt quite a respectable word for "trade/business" but then it got tarnished. peshah too means "occupation/trade" but you will hear/read "vuh peshah kartii hai" but "peshah" is no where near a "badnaam-i-zamaanah" word, as "dhandaa" has become. dallaal also carried the basic meaning of a "middle man" but then, somehow, this middle man became the middle man of the oldest profession!

So, to answer your question, if I valued my 3izzat one tiny bit, I would avoid the usage of "dallaal" for its primary meaning/s since it has become "bad-naam" to the ultimate degree. Poor word "dallaal"!


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## Sheikh_14

^With regard to QP SaaHib's timely contribution above I would like to add that a) he is correct some terms do get compartmentalized and as Faylasoof SaaHib (post 15) has eloquently noted when an Urdu-phone hears the word dhandaa, we think of an illicit racket of some sort. But just as is the case with the English racket, dhandaa is jocularly used to mean a business as well. If someone said they are the owner of an insurance racket, you'd take it to mean they own a legitimate insurance business, however, due to the wheeling-dealing nature of such businesses they opted for racket instead of more palatable parlance.

In Hindi however, kaar-o-baar and dhandaa are largely synonymous. In Urdu, Kaar-o-baar relates to clean operations and dhandaa pertains to illicit and black operations (for the most part). That offers a clear delineation which I believe is incredibly necessary for the richness of a language. The reason for that is that dhandaa is used in several constructs like gorakh-dhandaa, dukh-dhandaa etc where it is explicitly concerning a laborious or seedy line of work that involve Haraam-xorii of some form, being in dire straits or on the run.

Thence dictionaries will say as much-
Noun, Masculine

an illegal trade, immoral or dubious occupation, questionable practice
business
craft, trade, business
prostitution
work, employment, occupation, avocation

b) With regard to your question posed on dallaala and dallaal, I vehemently beg to differ with QP SaaHib (which is rare) on this and I would go as far to say that demonising Urdu terms in favour of English terms whether it's for everyday things like a dog (Kuttaa vs Doggie) or a puppy (pillaa vs puppy) or occupations like a sweeper and so forth is not a healthy occupation. However, it is very commonplace in 'civil' (courteous, well-read, and urbane) Punjabi households. There is absolutely no rationale to support this strange tendency. A dallaal is a catch-all term for a broker/agent/middleman/dealer, that person could be a nefarious or an honest broker. Thence my two cents would dictate that so long as we're qualifying what kind of brokerage we are talking about the usage of dallaala/dallaal is especially Halaal and one shouldn't have any qualms on its usage. Agent in colloquial parlance also has certain dubious connotations, that hasn't led to the end of using agent for a realtor.  Not one dictionary would support the idea of dallaal being purely derogatory thence the issue is purely regional. I would encourage its usage for non-nefarious activities. Therefore, I would side on Faylasoof saaHib's argument in post 15. 

The following are the definitions of Dallaal, the notorious connotation is a secondary, not a primary one:


کسی امر یا شے کی طرف دلالت یا رہنمائی کرنے والا، نشان دہی کرنے والا، بابع اور مشتری میں واسطہ ہو کر خرید و فروخت کرنے والا، آڑتیا، ایجنٹ
وہ شخض جو مردوں کو عورتوں سے ملانے کا کام کرے، بھڑوا، دیوث، کُٹنا

I would thereby counsel that since dallaa. the Punjabi term derived from dallaal is purely derogatory, that, that be used as specific to pimps whereas the latter is a catch-all-term which can extend to any agent/broker (including but not exclusive to pimps). One can qualify the sort of broker they are referring to as you would in any other language. Do dealers just deal in drugs? Are car dealers not dealers? Besides we already have Indic terms for a pimp thence consigning dallaal a quintessentially seedy denotation is not only unfair but unnecessary.

Just for the sake of providing examples a stock broker could be a Hissas-dalaal (Hissas kaa dalaal) or dallaal e Hissas. A pimp on the other hand could either be referred to as a dallaa or dhandaa-dalaal, makes matters pure and simple. For realtor a plethora of terms come to mind and it would be best we keep that strictly to a RE/realtor specific thread.

In fact it makes for a good meme (or a gut-wrenchingly sad situation) that "Haalaat ne usko dallaal se dallaa banaa diyaa"- Circumstances were so dire that he went from being a reputable broker to a man of seedy means.

For those that dissent what would they use besides borrowing wholesale from English, because that to me is indicative of an insidious inferiority complex? Relegate Urdu terms and promote recently borrowed English terms for reputable lines of work. The two should go hand in hand rather than subliminally be allowed to rule the roost in civil conversations.


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