# silver



## demalaga

Is there some etimologycal reason why Lat.cerebrum, is so similar to the Russian word for silver?Also the Spanish word for silver,  plata, has got a sound very close to the Russian word for "To pay".I have read the origin of plata is platus (adjective for flat. perhaps due to the fact that coins are flat?but I am not convinced, and I'd like to hear some opinion.


----------



## demalaga

The same English word "silver" is similiar to "cerebr" if you  read only the consonants and change r by l (both liquid)and v by b (both labial)


----------



## vince

German for silver is "Silber"

but other Germanic languages have a "v" like in English.


----------



## Whodunit

Sorry, guys, but I'm afraid you're on the wrong track. The Latin word for _silver_ is _argentum_, and I don't see why _cerebrum_ (= brain) should be a cognate of Russian _серебро _(_serebro_).

The origin of _silver_ is not certain. Many linguistics assume it could be from an Asian language, maybe Akkadian _sarpu_ could be the root word, derived from the verb _sarapu_ (= to refine). It is for sure not of Indo-European origin, although many IE languages possess cognates of English _silver_.

To come from English _silver_ to German _Silber_, you simply have to know the fist sound shift (also Germanic sound shift), which separates all Germanic languages from the other IE ones. Old High German (_sil[la]bar_), Middle High German (_silber_), New High German (_Silber_), Old Saxon (_silvbar_), and Gothic (_silubr_) might have borrowed the Russian word _serebro_ (which could be the "carrier" of the Akkadian foreign word, whereas other Germanic languages, such as Old English (_seolfor_), Old Norse (_silfr_), Middle Dutch (_silver_), New Dutch (_zilver_), Swedish (_silver_), applied the second sound shift (maybe an indicator/evidence for the time of the borrowings?).

It can be found in Lithuanian _sidãbras_, Old Church Slavonic _sirebo_, and other descendants.

A change from _r_ to _l_ is very likely.

The Spanish word _plata_ may come from Latin _plānus _(= flat), a cognate of English _plain _and_ plate_/_flat_.


----------



## demalaga

But, Why should plata derive from planus or platus? If you think of the coin shapes it is more striking that they are round than flat.Or perhaps big payements were made by plates, and other silver tablewhere?Could this be at the origin of the Russian word platit (to pay) Romanian plati.?


----------



## OldAvatar

demalaga said:


> Could this be at the origin of the Russian word platit (to pay) Romanian plati.?



Romanian dictionary says that's the other way arround. The Romanian verb *a plăti* or substantive *plată *(_payment_) are of Slavic origin. But the discussion is indeed interesting, considering the sense of the word of Latin origin _plata_.


----------



## robbie_SWE

OldAvatar said:


> Romanian dictionary says that's the other way arround. The Romanian verb *a plăti* or substantive *plată *(_payment_) are of Slavic origin. But the discussion is indeed interesting, considering the sense of the word of Latin origin _plata_.


 
I agree that it is a very interesting discussion. Couldn't it be a word shared by Latin and other Slavic languages with cognates in the Indo-European language? 

 robbie


----------



## cajzl

The Slavic verb *platiti* is reportedly derived from the noun *poltъ-no* (Cz. plátno, Rus. polotno) = linen fabric.
The Slavs used the linen handkerchiefs as a currency.


----------



## Lugubert

I can't imagine a more comprehensible list of elementology than this. For the thread, it rather creates more questions than it solves. I can only add ksp for Ugaritic, which matches Akkadian kaspu and Hebrew ksf but not Arabic fiDDah.


----------



## demalaga

I read the information in the link included in the post number 9 of this thread and I noticed two interesting things
It seems that in Icelandic is called silfur and in Faroese silvur.This reminds me of the Latin sulphur, that could be the ancient Latin word before the introduction of argentum.
Also the Tajik word nukra is cognate of noqra used in Morocco instead of the classical fiDDah.This standard Arabic word is related with a verb that means getting rid of debts.


----------



## Lugubert

demalaga said:


> This reminds me of the Latin sulphur, that could be the ancient Latin word before the introduction of argentum.


I think that the Latin word sulphur is old enough to have had its currrent meaning from the beginning. Silver is also known from antiquity (if you use my link, you will even find a name in Akkadian), so I don't think that there has been a change.


----------



## mkh

Hi,
Silver may be cognate to زیور (zivar) in Persian, and اساور (asaver) in Arabic.


----------



## Frank06

Hi,


mkh said:


> Silver may be cognate to زیور (zivar) in Persian, and اساور (asaver) in Arabic.


Why not? But how do you account for the changes? 

Groetjes,

Frank


----------



## mkh

Frank06 said:


> Hi,
> 
> Why not? But how do you account for the changes?



As you know زعفران (Zafaran) is a Persian word that loaned by European as:  Saffron.
So there existed some words originally with Z pronunciation converted to English as S.

Also the word دجله (Dejleh) in Arabic is a share word in Persian as تجریش (Tajrsh) and Tigris in English.
So there existed some words originally with D pronunciation converted to T in other languages,
and  there existed some words originally with L pronunciation converted to R in other languages. Consider LudicRous, RidicuLous both in English too.

So the silver has very near pronunciation with زیور (zivar) in Persian & اساور (asaver) in Arabic.


----------



## Lugubert

mkh said:


> As you know زعفران (Zafaran) is a Persian word that loaned by European as: Saffron.
> So there existed some words originally with Z pronunciation converted to English as S.
> 
> Also the word دجله (Dejleh) in Arabic is a share word in Persian as تجریش (Tajrsh) and Tigris in English.
> So there existed some words originally with D pronunciation converted to T in other languages,
> and there existed some words originally with L pronunciation converted to R in other languages. Consider LudicRous, RidicuLous both in English too.
> 
> So the silver has very near pronunciation with زیور (zivar) in Persian & اساور (asaver) in Arabic.


Somewhere, Frank coined the expression "Comicbook linguistics"...

From etymonline.com:
ridiculous *1550, from L. ridiculosus "laughable," from ridiculus "that which excites laughter," from ridere "to laugh." In modern senses, ridicule (n.) is attested from 1690; verb is from 1700.*

ludicrous *1619, "pertaining to play or sport," from L. ludicrus, from ludicrum "source of amusement, joke," from ludere "to play," which, with L. ludus "a game, play," may be from Etruscan, or from a PIE base *leid- "to play." Sense of "ridiculous" is attested from 1782.* 

Obviously not a case of "conversion".

There are, though, examples of l/r instability: 'tree' in Latin is _arbor_, in Spanish, _arbol_, in Provençal, _albre_. 

My dictionaries tell me that Arabic اساور (asaaw*i*r) is a plural, which means 'bracelets, bangles', and that the Persian ziiwar means ''an ornament of gems, gold, or silver'. It seems that the common meaning is more like 'adornment' than indicating any specific material.

Curiously, there just might be a real link between some s- words for silver.

Adapted from the link I gave earlier in the thread:
The Slavic and Germanic forms are related: Old Saxon siluvar, Old High German silbar, Old Norse silfr, Gothic silubr, complying with Old Slavic sirebro, Lithuanian sidabras, Old Prussian siraplis. The differences between these forms indicate a loan word, probably from an eastern language, anyway from Asia Minor and maybe even further, cf. Assyrian sarpu.​The Akkadian connection gets problematic already in Semitic languages, because, as mentioned, the normal Arabic for silver is فضة [fiDDah], and Bible and Modern Hebrew have כסף [kesef]...

The only conclusion we can draw from these examples is that it is QUITE IMPOSSIBLE to find relationships between languages from looking at no more than superficial resemblances in modern languages.


----------



## mkh

Hi,

First:


Lugubert said:


> There are, though, examples of l/r instability: 'tree' in Latin is _arbor_, in Spanish, _arbol_, in Proven硬, _albre_.


Equivalent of these words in Persian is الوار (alvar).
Second:


Lugubert said:


> The only conclusion we can draw from these examples is that it is QUITE IMPOSSIBLE to find relationships between languages from looking at no more than superficial resemblances in modern languages.


So there is a question here:
If a few examples can lead us to a conclusion,
Then a lot of examples can lead us to what?


----------



## Lugubert

If already a few examples lead us to think that a theory is wrong, more similar examples will probably make no difference.

Similarities between languages are found by comparing systems, not isolated words. For example, if most German words beginning with f- correspond to English, Swedish, Dutch etc. words in f-, and (almost) all those have Greek, Latin, Sanskrit and Russian counterparts in p-, there is reason to assume a relationship between all thoes languages. If we then find lots and lots of similar similarities between _sets_ of other words, and in the grammar _systems_, our initial conclusion is affirmed. And so on.

A few examples can start a theory, but for reasonable proof, we need much more.


----------



## Asgaard

Hi all,

When I look into the etymology of a word I always try to imagine what was in the mind of whoever came with or derived that particular word. Think of it as a recall of an ancient idea. This might not be quite the "scientific" way to deal with etymology but I am never satisfied with the limited explanation from etymological dictionaries. Most etymologies stop at Greek, Latin, Arab, Germanic or Sanskrit "roots". But what of this "roots? 

*Note: **This question above can be discussed in this new thread. **Frank (Moderator) *



Going back to SILVER, indeed you guys have found lots of similar words, but the root lies somewhere within this words.(not always...)

When I think of Silver I see the Moon( Selena), the Sky( Syl ), Shinny Rivers ( Argos Argentum), Forests covered with Snow (Silva...) or the Silver Wolf ( silver hair - gray).

1. SIL ( Sky, Heaven - Syl(Creole), Sila (Inuit), Cel(Catalan), Cielo(Spanish) 

2.PIE - Klep , Old Indian - Silpa --- wet, to become wet ( just like quicksilver - mercury )

Sky and Wet are related just like Nev and Neb.
Also wet: Argos and Argent.

Under definition for cloud in Webster's online
*сила* (Sila) - (agency, efficacy, force, _iron_, muscle, nerve, pith, potence, potency, power, strength, vehemence, vigor, vigour, _wealth_)

3.In Romanian there is SALBA (unknown etymology) if I understand well ... a necklace made of gold or silver coins . Serpa - snake? A Torque? 

Lava
1750, from It. (Neapolitan or Calabrian dialect) lava "torrent, stream," traditionally from L. lavare "to wash" . Originally applied in It. to flash flood rivulets after downpours, then to streams of molten rock from Vesuvius


Silver - Could it be related to slave? - One who mined Silver or One who was fishing for silver? ( see river names Rio de la Plata, Arges( Romania))
Similar word in Romanian - Argat ( same root as Argentum )- *serv*ant

Silver roots might be related to wetness (Primal meaning)(Rom - jilav s->z->j) .
The S->J transformation occurs quite frequently .
Here's an example of this transformation from German??? to Romanian:

*JILŢ ~uri* _n_. Scaun cu spătar înalt (şi cu braţe); jeţ. /<germ. _Sitz, _săs. _Sätz_ 

Silver - Silaver??

Su, Suwar - water (Turkmen)
...other words in the same family
saliva, slaver, slobber

adj Sallow - O.E. salo "dusky, dark" (related to *sol *"dark, dirty"), from P.Gmc. *salwa- (cf. M.Du. salu "discolored, dirty," O.H.G. salo "dirty gray," O.N. sölr "dirty yellow"), from PIE base *sal- "dirty, gray" (cf. O.C.S. slavojocije "grayish-blue color," Rus. solovoj "cream-colored"). - 

This looks like the Color of Silver ... not Sterling Silver.
Also according to etymonline root for *saliva.(*Tucker )

Well, I let you decide... 

Regards
Asgaard


----------



## OldAvatar

> 3.In Romanian there is SALBA (unknown etymology) if I understand well ... a necklace made of gold or silver coins . Serpa - snake? A Torque?


My dictionary says that etymology of _salba _*(collar) *is Latin _*subarba/subalba. *_Romanians use the word _barbă  _- _bărbie _for *chin* (of both women and men). _Subarba _would mean something wore under the chin, a *collar *for example. So, the word evolved in _salba_. Changing of letter _r_ with _l_ is pretty common in Romanian.
_Argat _is of Greek origin (_*argatis*_). It has nothing to do with Latin.
German *sitz *also has nothing to do with _*silver*_. It has the same root as English _*sit *_(sit down for example).
Also, the name of river _Argeş _has nothing to do with _argentum_. There is no evidence of silver extraction in Argeş region. The river was known as _Ordessus _in the ancient Greek world and Dacians called it _Argessis_, long before Romans got into these lands. The actual form of the word  is taken from the Turkic tribe of Pechenegs which pronounced the name of the river in order to have a meaning in their language: „Ardjeesh”, meaning „the higher grounds”.


Best regards!


----------



## Asgaard

Hi all,
   I have been working on "Silver" for tens of hours now.
I cannot find a single source that will have a decent explanation. Why?
Besides enumeration of all words in Germanic and Slavic languages I haven't seen any other explanation.
Is there anyone who has a decent etymological dictionary that give a different explanation than to list few similar words?
I have posted before my findings ( now deleted ) and I was hoping to get some feed back .

 So far I have found some history that relates Silver, The Pyrenees, and the Phoenicians. It appears that Iberia was one of the main sources for Silver in antiquity , the Iberian  word for Silver being preserved in Basque (Zil(h)arr ) and Celt-Iberian  (SilaPur). Could Irish Geal (Gheal ) be related to SIL?
Diodorus (5:35,4-5) describes a huge fire in the Pyrenees which made the mountain flow with rivelets of melted silver. The news spread and the Phoenician sail their ships to Iberia. This could have been one instant in which Iberians came in contact with semitic languages. ( Sel hbr - rock)

Basque words for land, earth, ground, rocks - *Lur*, Zoru, Behe, Alor, Eremu, *Zio*, Arrazoi, Harri, Hezura

Phoenician "stone" = ( حجر, صخر) BN, Pronounced "Ibben", "إبان" ) (SS)R, Pronounced *"Svur"*, "صور" 

Frank, what is your take on Silver?


Regards
Asgaard


----------



## Frank06

Hello,


Asgaard said:


> I have been working on "Silver" for tens of hours now. I cannot find a single source that will have a decent explanation.


I invite you to explain in this thread what you mean by "a decent explanation".



> Besides enumeration of all words in Germanic and Slavic languages I haven't seen any other explanation. Is there anyone who has a decent etymological dictionary that give a different explanation than to list few similar words? I have posted before my findings ( now deleted ) and I was hoping to get some feed back .


I refer to the same thread for a comment on "besides an enumeration... I don't see an explanation".



> So far I have found some history that relates Silver, The Pyrenees, and the Phoenicians. It appears that Iberia was one of the main sources for Silver in antiquity , the Iberian word for Silver being preserved in Basque (Zil(h)arr ) and Celt-Iberian (SilaPur). Could Irish Geal (Gheal ) be related to SIL? Diodorus (5:35,4-5) describes a huge fire in the Pyrenees which made the mountain flow with rivelets of melted silver. The news spread and the Phoenician sail their ships to Iberia. This could have been one instant in which Iberians came in contact with semitic languages. ( Sel hbr - rock)
> Basque words for land, earth, ground, rocks - *Lur*, Zoru, Behe, Alor, Eremu, *Zio*, Arrazoi, Harri, Hezura
> Phoenician "stone" = ( حجر, صخر) BN, Pronounced "Ibben", "إبان" ) (SS)R, Pronounced *"Svur"*, "صور"


Why, please tell me why this would be "a decent explanation", or more decent that the previous ones, than the ones you find in an etymological dictionary?

Groetjes,

Frank


----------



## Asgaard

Hi all,

Could  the Sanskrit* " Sulva " (sulba) *be the old root for "Silver"? Sometimes "Sulva" is translated as Copper, sometimes as Silver. Some authors from the XIX-th century derived Sulva from Surya. Others believe that Sulva came from the ancient Panjabi tribe of the *Salvas. *- ( I haven't find a whole lot of literature about the Salvas but the tribe is mentioned in the Mahabharata)
(Sulva-naga = copper-lead)


 "Lawdy, yeas, Maws Yankee Soljeh ; oh, yeas. seh. But dose sha's wall times, an' sto's do'n' 'low no *sulva* money." - from "Harper's New Monthly Magazin" (1883) - page 951 - ( Google books )

It appears that Sulva was the word for Silver in a Southern American dialect in the 1800's.

Sulva seems(??) to have been transmited to our times in Sulvanite:

... "Cubic grains of bronze-gray sulvanite crystals in marble"...


More investigation is needed here, but I believe I caught a Silver Thread...

Regards,
Asgaard


----------



## Lugubert

Asgaard said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Could the Sanskrit* " Sulva " (sulba) *be the old root for "Silver"? Sometimes "Sulva" is translated as Copper, sometimes as Silver. Some authors from the XIX-th century derived Sulva from Surya. Others believe that Sulva came from the ancient Panjabi tribe of the *Salvas. *- ( I haven't find a whole lot of literature about the Salvas but the tribe is mentioned in the Mahabharata)
> (Sulva-naga = copper-lead)


Your transcriptions indicate that either you or your sources (or both) have problems with linguistics. Sanskrit *shulva* doesn't, to a linguists, look at all like something that could evolve to something in *si*-.

A not very common Skt. word for lead is naaga. Where did you find the reference to the "copper-lead"? 

<snip comic-book thoughts>



> Sulva seems(??) to have been transmited to our times in Sulvanite:


Please, don't be so lazy. Ten seconds of Google reveals that it is


			
				Google said:
			
		

> Named after sulfur (sul) and vanadium (van) in the chemical formula.


----------



## Asgaard

Lugubert said:


> Your transcriptions indicate that either you or your sources (or both) have problems with linguistics. Sanskrit *shulva* doesn't, to a linguists, look at all like something that could evolve to something in *si*-.


 
- How do you explain the Southern US " Sulva " ? It's been used in the past  .... how do linguists explain this ?! Might...O.E. seolfor "silver" be the cause???



> A not very common Skt. word for lead is naaga. Where did you find the reference to the "copper-lead"?


- In google books search  "Sulva - copper, or Sulva - silver"



> <snip comic-book thoughts>


- thanks for the sarcasm ( folk-etymologies will be more appropriate )



> Please, don't be so lazy.


- 1. I am not lazy !
- 2. I admit ... I made a mistake ( not allowed?)... my apologies ...



> Ten seconds of Google reveals that it is


...indeed


----------



## Asgaard

Hi,

Could 'Silures' be cognate with Silver?

Silures - the tribal name possible given by the romans to the people of South-Est Wales.

'Silures' - may itself be of Latin derivation, meaning simply 'the people of the Rocks', alluding to the mountainous region in which they lived *...*


----------



## amed

Whodunit said:


> Sorry, guys, but I'm afraid you're on the wrong track. The Latin word for _silver_ is _argentum_, and I don't see why _cerebrum_ (= brain) should be a cognate of Russian _серебро _(_serebro_).
> 
> The origin of _silver_ is not certain. Many linguistics assume it could be from an Asian language, maybe Akkadian _sarpu_ could be the root word, derived from the verb _sarapu_ (= to refine). It is for sure not of Indo-European origin, although many IE languages possess cognates of English _silver_.
> 
> To come from English _silver_ to German _Silber_, you simply have to know the fist sound shift (also Germanic sound shift), which separates all Germanic languages from the other IE ones. Old High German (_sil[la]bar_), Middle High German (_silber_), New High German (_Silber_), Old Saxon (_silvbar_), and Gothic (_silubr_) might have borrowed the Russian word _serebro_ (which could be the "carrier" of the Akkadian foreign word, whereas other Germanic languages, such as Old English (_seolfor_), Old Norse (_silfr_), Middle Dutch (_silver_), New Dutch (_zilver_), Swedish (_silver_), applied the second sound shift (maybe an indicator/evidence for the time of the borrowings?).
> 
> It can be found in Lithuanian _sidãbras_, Old Church Slavonic _sirebo_, and other descendants.
> 
> A change from _r_ to _l_ is very likely.
> 
> The Spanish word _plata_ may come from Latin _plānus _(= flat), a cognate of English _plain _and_ plate_/_flat_.



I do think that Silver is indo-European word as most of these languages sharing that common word and its roots can be traced in many languages like Kurdish and its several dialects as "Ziv" is the root of that word in Kurmanji, Kirmancki-Zazaki, Sorani, Gorani etc dialects of Kurdish and also called similiar like "Zib, Ziv, Siv" etc. as well, the word of Olive "Zyt, Zayt" in Arabic, Hebrew and other languages means “yielding illuminating oil” and related to the word of brightness, which is Ziv, Zib, Siv, Zewr and most of these words are related to "brightness" in Kurdish or probably in most of Indo-European languages, another example of this is; Zêr (Kurmanji - Kurdish) which means Gold it also have slightly difference than the other word Zer (Kur) = Yellow (gold color), as you can see all come from the root word of Ziv-Zib-Sibr-Zivr-Zewr. Also in hebrew "Ziv" has similar meaning as in Kurdish, in Arabic Sufr, Asfar, Safra and in Farsi-Persian means "zivar" all come from the same root of this word.


----------



## Treaty

Just because a number of words start with similar letters, doesn't make them cognates. 

زیت _zayt _simply meant olive, and other meanings (like "illuminating") are secondary. It is a very ancient near eastern word. Iranian _zar_ and _zard_ are cognates of English "gold" and German "gelbe" from the PIE root *_gʰel _(to shine). In Persian the main word for silver was _asīm_ or _sīm_ before _noqra _became popular. The Kudish word _ziv _(and similar) seems to be cognate of Persian *_zīwag_ (mercury, quicksilver) which was borrowed into Semitic languages as _jīwa _جیوه (in Arabic) or _zībaq_ (in Aramaic). It may be related to the Middle Persian verb _zīw_- (to live) referring the liquid metal as "living silver". Arabic root _ṣ-f-r_ (yellow) is from Proto-Semitic root *_ṣ-p-r_. It would be impossibly difficult to connect PIE *_gʰel,_ Semitic *_ṣ-p-r, _and _z-y-t_ together_. _


----------



## apmoy70

Treaty said:


> Just because a number of words start with similar letters, doesn't make them cognates.
> 
> زیت _zayt _simply meant olive, and other meanings (like "illuminating") are secondary. It is a very ancient near eastern word. Iranian _zar_ and _zard_ are cognates of English "gold" and German "gelbe" from the PIE root *_gʰel _(to shine). *In Persian the main word for silver was asīm* or _sīm_ before _noqra _became popular. The Kudish word _ziv _(and similar) seems to be cognate of Persian *_zīwag_ (mercury, quicksilver) which was borrowed into Semitic languages as _jīwa _جیوه (in Arabic) or _zībaq_ (in Aramaic). It may be related to the Middle Persian verb _zīw_- (to live) referring the liquid metal as "living silver". Arabic root _ṣ-f-r_ (yellow) is from Proto-Semitic root *_ṣ-p-r_. It would be impossibly difficult to connect PIE *_gʰel,_ Semitic *_ṣ-p-r, _and _z-y-t_ together_. _


Could you please expand more on the Persian _asīm_ for silver?
Because the Greek colloquial word for silver *«ασήμι»* [aˈsimi] (neut.) (< Byzantine colloquialism *«ἀσήμιν» asḗmin* (neut.), the name of newly-cut, unimpressed/unmarked silver coin, privative prefix *«ἀ-» a-* + neuter noun «*σῆμα» sêmă* --> _sign, symbol, mark, character_, i.e. _coin without sign_) is astonishingly similar; thanks in advance.


----------



## Treaty

It is a loan from Greek. It was written as _'sym, hsym _or_ sym _in Middle Persian (_y_ is taken as _ē_ or _ī_). '_symyn _and _symyn _were the adjectives. In modern Persian they are pronounced _sīm _and _sīmīn _(and a new word _sīmgūn_, though they are rarely used). Prior to that (in old Iranian) cognates of _argent_- were used (e.g., OP _ardata_ and Ave. _ǝrǝzǝta_) but they were abandoned in favour of _sīm _and later _nakartag _(_noqra, "_un-treated").


----------



## mataripis

Akkadian Sarpu and Sarapu are interesting . It reminds me the word Salain or to screen with root word sala'( to screen or refine) . Sala' in Akkadian is Sara and that Pu might be soil or mud or stone. In Tagalog , silver is Pilak and in Melayu it is Perak.If Akkadian word Sarapu is correct, then the Austronesian Tagalog Pilak ( Pi + lak = laki/ big, lakan/ wealth)will have the new meaning stone or metal wealth / important stone or metal .


----------

