# Etymology by pronunciation of "g"



## Treaty

Hi,

I wonder how accurate this claim is for English:
If there is "e","i" or "y" after "g" in a word and the "g" is pronounced /g/, its root is Germanic, but if it's pronounced /dʒ/ the root is Romance. (excluding words added in last two centuries).

Thanks.


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## CapnPrep

In general, yes, there is a strong correlation between the pronunciation of ‹g› before a front vowel and Germanic vs. Romance origin, keeping in mind that some words allow both pronunciations, and that many words have neither Germanic nor Romance origin.

Are you looking for a list of counter-examples?


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## Gale_

CapnPrep said:


> Are you looking for a list of counter-examples?


Even if Treaty isn't, I'm interested in it


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## Treaty

Gale_ said:


> Even if Treaty isn't, I'm interested in it


I'm interested too.  Especially if it is following a counter-pattern.


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## NorwegianNYC

In Scandinavian, ‹g› usually becomes ‹y› (as in yellow) in front of e,i,y and j; and after final i or e.


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## Gavril

Treaty said:


> Hi,
> 
> I wonder how accurate this claim is for English:
> If there is "e","i" or "y" after "g" in a word and the "g" is pronounced /g/, its root is Germanic, but if it's pronounced /dʒ/ the root is Romance. (excluding words added in last two centuries).



Are you talking about the letter "g", or the sound [g]? Either way, I would say the answer is no.

Words such as _bridge, midge, ledge _etc. show the [dʒ] pronunciation for the letter "g" but are (as far as I know) inherited from Proto-Germanic, reflecting forms with earlier *_-gj-_: e.g., Proto-Germanic *_brugjo- _> Old English _brycg > _Modern_ bridge.
_
The word _knowledge _is another example, but here the -_dg_- is thought to reflect earlier *_-k-, _followed by a either front vowel or the glide [j].


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## Gale_

Gavril said:


> Are you talking about the letter "g", or the sound [g]? Either way, I would say the answer is no.
> 
> Words such as _bridge, midge, ledge _etc. show the [dʒ] pronunciation for the letter "g" but are (as far as I know) inherited from Proto-Germanic,


Gavril, I guess that they told about roots, i.e. of ‹g› before a front vowel not in the end. Such as _Germanic, gentry, gym_, but _gift, begin_... etc.


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## Gavril

Gale_ said:


> Gavril, I guess that they told about roots, i.e. of ‹g› before a front vowel not in the end. Such as _Germanic, gentry, gym_, but _gift, begin_... etc.



The original question said, "If there is "e","i" or "y" after "g" in a word, ..."

_bridge, midge, ridge _etc. all have the letter _g _followed by the letter _e_, so I think they're relevant to Treaty's question.


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## berndf

NorwegianNYC said:


> In Scandinavian, ‹g› usually becomes ‹y› (as in yellow) in front of e,i,y and j; and after final i or e.


Yes, in Old English as well. That's why _dæg _become _day_ in English and, as you said, _geowe/geolo(w)_ became _yellow_. In general, Germanic /g/ was spriantized, either [ɣ] or [ʝ]~[j]. Plosive [g] existed only and only in some contexts, notably word-initially in Old-Norse the influence of which explains that we say _give_ and not _*yive_ in Modern English (the latter pronunciation died out in late Middle English). In Middle English these inherited <g>s pronounced [ʝ]~[j] were spelled <ȝ> in Middle English to distinguish them from other, usually non-native pronunciations. Later <ȝ> which could also stand for [ç] and [x] was replaced by <y> and <gh>, respectively; e.g. _ȝelwe/__ȝellou/__ȝellow _became yellow and _li__ȝt_ became _light_.


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## berndf

Gavril said:


> _bridge, midge, ridge _etc. all have the letter _g _followed by the letter _e_, so I think they're relevant to Treaty's question.


Yes and a bit of no. In these words, [dʒ] is spelled <dg> and not just <g> which makes them recognizable, even if you don't know the etymology.


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## CapnPrep

Gavril said:


> Are you talking about the letter "g", or the sound [g]?


The question is about the letter ‹g›, of course (how could the sound [g] be pronounced [dʒ]? ) And, as your examples show, and as berndf also pointed out, we need to treat digraphs ending in ‹g› (‹ng›, ‹dg›, etc.) separately.


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## Gavril

CapnPrep said:


> The question is about the letter ‹g›, of course (how could the sound [g] be pronounced [dʒ]? )




That's what I thought as well, but it seemed possible (if unlikely) that the original poster was asking about the change [g] > [dʒ] before a front vowel and whether it applied to Germanic words as well as Romance.




> And, as your examples show, and as berndf also pointed out, we need to treat digraphs ending in ‹g› (‹ng›, ‹dg›, etc.) separately.




Maybe so, but again, the original question seemed to be about all cases of <g> followed by <e,i,y>.


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## CapnPrep

Gavril said:


> Maybe so, but again, the original question seemed to be about all cases of <g> followed by <e,i,y>.


I wasn't saying it was off-topic for this thread, just that the digraphs should be treated separately. Your examples in _-dge_ are probably the sort of "counter-pattern" Treaty is interested in. Since there are also many Romance words spelled with ‹dg› (and pronounced with [dʒ]: _judge_, _pledge_, _abridge_, etc.), this pattern gives us no clue about the origin of the words. But other cases of ‹g› might, and do.

You said that the answer to the original question was "no", but it wasn't a yes/no question…


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## Treaty

"-ge" is actually a kind of proof for my hypothesis. Because most words in English which have the letter "j" are either French or Latin. I assume Modern English needed it own [dʒ] letter so they invented the combination "-ge" at the end of a word (Sounds they have used other combinations before like "cg"). They didn't used single "g" because it was pronounced [g] by default.

So far, the only pattern with "g" sounding  [dʒ] is "-ge" at the end of the word. "wage" seems to be another exception.


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## Ben Jamin

Gale_ said:


> Gavril, I guess that they told about roots, i.e. of ‹g› before a front vowel not in the end. Such as _Germanic, gentry, gym_, but _gift, begin_... etc.



Neither gentry nor gym is Germanic, but Latin and Greek respectively.


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## berndf

Ben Jamin said:


> Neither gentry nor gym is Germanic, but Latin and Greek respectively.


Gale didn't mean they were Germanic but cited the word _*Ge*rmanic_ as an example of <g> before front a vowel.


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## berndf

Treaty said:


> "-ge" is actually a kind of proof for my hypothesis. Because most words in English which have the letter "j" are either French or Latin. I assume Modern English needed it own [dʒ] letter so they invented the combination "-ge" at the end of a word (Sounds they have used other combinations before like "cg"). They didn't used single "g" because it was pronounced [g] by default.
> 
> So far, the only pattern with "g" sounding  [dʒ] is "-ge" at the end of the word. "wage" seems to be another exception.


I am completely confused. <g> =  [dʒ] is the rule in words of *Romance* origin before front vowels, not in words of Germanic origin. Words like _wage_ (from Anglo-French) are the rule and not the exception.


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## CapnPrep

Treaty said:


> "-ge" is actually a kind of proof for my hypothesis.


Could you tell us what your hypothesis is, exactly? I am as confused as berndf by what you've just written.


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## Treaty

CapnPrep said:


> Could you tell us what your hypothesis is, exactly? I am as confused as berndf by what you've just written.


I'm myself confused . OK, I will explain:
1- My hypothesis is that [dʒ] is not a genuine* English sound. Therefore, most words with [dʒ] are of Romance origin either with "j" or "g+e.i.y" (except some Germanic word that entered in 16th century?).
2- Based on [1] I expand my question to if [dʒ] sound is a good marker for finding the origin of a word
3- Question in [1] automatically means that if the letter "g" before "e.i.y" is not pronounced [dʒ] the root is Germanic.
4- As Gavril mentioned, there are some exceptions. Interestingly all of them follow a similar pattern** : (some letters)+(vowel)+(a consonant)+"g"+"e".

* Or may  be [ʒ] is not genuine so they pronounced it [dʒ] which itself was a very rare sound.
** "wage" has a mixed(?) Germanic and French root: "wed" and "gage". If the root is Germanic it can be an exception to that pattern.


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## CapnPrep

Treaty said:


> 3- Question in [1] automatically means that if the letter "g" before "e.i.y" is not pronounced [dʒ] the root is Germanic.


You should at least say "non-Romance" here, not "Germanic". As I mentioned above, Romance and Germanic are not the only two sources of English vocabulary.


Treaty said:


> ** "wage" has a mixed(?) Germanic and French root: "wed" and "gage". If the root is Germanic it can be an exception to that pattern.


I see. In fact, many many words in French (Old French, Anglo-French) have Germanic roots, but by the time they were borrowed into English, they were fully assimilated French words (at least as far as the spelling and the pronunciation of palatalized ‹g› are concerned). I think you should just put them in the "Romance" category, meaning that the pronunciation [dʒ] is not exceptional.


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## berndf

Treaty said:


> 4- As Gavril mentioned, there are some exceptions. Interestingly all of them follow a similar pattern** : (some letters)+(vowel)+(a consonant)+"g"+"e".


This pattern is a palatalization of double /g/ (compare Old Saxon cognates with <ggi>, Scandinavian cognates with <gg> and Old High German cognates with <cc>) in front of [j]: [ggj] > [dʒ]; actually a two step development [ggj] > [dʝ] and subsequent merger with [dʒ] after the Norman conquest sounds more plausible to me, but I cannot prove it.


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## Ben Jamin

berndf said:


> Gale didn't mean they were Germanic but cited the word _*Ge*rmanic_ as an example of <g> before front a vowel.



Sorry for misunderstanding.


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## Cenzontle

Since the original question mentions "y" after the "g", 
I want to point out that "y" (called "i *grec*" in French and "i *griega*" in Spanish) in a root is often a sign of Greek origin and corresponds to upsilon in the Greek alphabet. 
This doesn't mean that it's not "Romance", in the sense that many of the Greek words in English were "filtered" through Latin or Romance languages.
The Greek origin of "gym(nasium, -nastics, etc.)" has been pointed out by Ben Jamin.
Consider also "gypsum", "gyro-", "Egypt", and "gynecology" (and in this word the first "g" is exceptional, in that it's usually pronounced [g], not [dʒ]). 
By the way, the names of sciences ending with "-ology" are generally of Greek origin too, although the final "y" is a quirk of English orthography, not from upsilon.


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