# I have never eaten such a good bread



## Fmurr

Hello everybody here,

Can somebody tell me how we say the sentence i put in the title in German,

Perhaps something like that :
i habe nie solche gute brot gegessen
to say : nichts als gut als dieses brot

in the context of a simple conversation in a bakery

Thanks in advance
Regards
MF


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## berndf

_Ich habe noch nie (ein) so gutes Brot gegessen._


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## Fmurr

berndf said:


> _Ich habe noch nie (ein) so gutes Brot gegessen._



vielen Dank
Merci beaucoup


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## white_bones

berndf said:


> _Ich habe noch nie (ein) so gutes Brot gegessen._



Agreed,  or you could invert the sentence a little to emphasise the _never

_Z.B _Noch nie habe ich so ein gutes Brot gegessen. _


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## perpend

Fmurr, It may be beside the point but this doesn't make sense in American English: I have never eaten such a good bread.


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## Dan2

Oh c'mon, perpend, it makes perfect sense.  The only problem is that it's unidiomatic because of the "a", which we would normally omit (because we normally treat "bread" as a "mass noun", not a "count noun").

But we often make count nouns out of mass nouns.  You hear (some) people order "three waters" (meaning bottles or glasses of water).  Giving Fmurr the benefit of the doubt, I could imagine a conversation like,
- I don't always like whole-wheat bread.
- Arnold's makes an excellent whole-wheat bread.
- Agreed, that's a very good bread (meaning "bread product").


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## Fmurr

Dan2 said:


> Oh c'mon, perpend, it makes perfect sense.  The only problem is that it's unidiomatic because of the "a", which we would normally omit (because we normally treat "bread" as a "mass noun", not a "count noun").
> 
> But we often make count nouns out of mass nouns.  You hear (some) people order "three waters" (meaning bottles or glasses of water).  Giving Fmurr the benefit of the doubt, I could imagine a conversation like,
> - I don't always like whole-wheat bread.
> - Arnold's makes an excellent whole-wheat bread.
> - Agreed, that's a very good bread (meaning "bread product").



Thank you for your sympathetic attitude.
Forgive my bad english, i'm just a froggy 
Cheers


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## perpend

That was helpful, Dan. And we like Frogs, Fmurr!!! 

I guess the question has been answered above, but now that I'm clear on the English, my non-native idea would go:
_Ich habe solches tolles Brot nie gegessen_.

But that is likely unidiomatic.


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## Robocop

perpend said:


> _Ich habe solches tolles Brot nie gegessen_.


A proper answer has been given in post #2!


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## berndf

perpend said:


> I guess the question has been answered above, but now that I'm clear on the English, my non-native idea would go:
> _Ich habe solches tolles Brot nie gegessen_.
> 
> But that is likely unidiomatic.


If you expressly want it to sound a bit colloquial, _toll _instead of _gut _is fine. Otherwise it should be like my translation in #2 above to sound idiomatic in modern German.

I assume he meant _I have never eaten such good bread before_. As nobody has commented on this, yet, I assume it is not important to indicate in English that now I have eaten it (otherwise I couldn't make this statement). German is a bit more pedantic and you should include a word indicating that you have now eaten it. In my translation it is _noch_ which does that.

You can use _solch _instead of _so_ to translate _such_ but it has to remain uninflected (_solch_, not _solches_) because it functions as an adverb and not as an adjective_.

_PS: Crossed with Robocop's post.


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## perpend

Can't you say both, Bernd?
Ich habe solch tolles Brot nie gegessen.
Ich habe solches tolles Brot nie gegessen.

Like:
Ich habe solch lange Beine nie gesehen.
Ich habe solche langen Beine nie gesehen.

Oh well, you said you can't, but I had to try.


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## berndf

perpend said:


> Can't you say both, Bernd?


You can but they mean something different. If you decline _solch _as an adjective, it attributes the noun phrase _gutes Brot_ and not the adjective _gut_. I.e. _Ich habe solches gutes Brot nie gegessen_ means _Among all the good breads in the world, I've never tasted this particular one_. It does not mean that the bread is _particularly good_, it just means it is _particular_ and _good_.


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## perpend

Thanks for the reply, Bernd. Now, in the meantime, I'm wondering what the OP was meaning to convey. I may have misunderstood.


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## berndf

perpend said:


> Thanks for the reply, Bernd. Now, in the meantime, I'm wondering what the OP was meaning to convey. I may have misunderstood.


Ok, let's ask the OP.

@Fmurr: Tu veux exprimer "Je n'ai jamais mangé un pain tellement bon [avant/ailleurs]"? C'est juste?


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## nievedemango

To put more emphasis on _never_, you can say:

Ich habe noch *gar* nie so gutes Brot gegessen.


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## Hutschi

nievedemango said:


> To put more emphasis on _never_, you can say:
> 
> Ich habe noch *gar* nie so gutes Brot gegessen.




At first I thought this is simply wrong. But if you pronounce in a special way, it is possible, but sounds dated.

I write bold to show the stressed word:

Ich habe _gar *nie *_so gutes Brot gegessen. "Gar nie" are building a word group and "gar" is not stressed.
It sounds old-fashioned and stylish. Such constructions with "gar" are usually used in fairy tales. If you say it in a bakery they may be smiling. 

Usually we use the word order shown by Bernd in #2 and by white_bone in #4.
In spoken language (as in the bakery) you can use stress patterns to show emphasizing.


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## nievedemango

_At first I thought this is simply wrong. But if you pronounce in a special way, it is possible, but sounds dated._
_"Ich habe gar *nie *so gutes Brot gegessen. "Gar nie" are building a word group and "gar" is not stressed.
It sounds old-fashioned and stylish. Such constructions with "gar" are  usually used in fairy tales. If you say it in a bakery they may be  smiling._"

Hutschi:
No, this isn't wrong at all. It's neither wrong nor dated! However, you should not stress the word *nie* in this sentence.  Yes, you're right, that sounds really old-fashioned and it changes the meaning.
*
The stressed word of course ist gar nie *........         It's used every day, just to put emphasis on "never".  (never, never before!)

some examples:
I've never eaten such a good bread (before).  -  Ich habe noch *gar* nie so (ein) gutes Brot gegessen. (never before)

He never, never helps me. -  Er hilft mir *gar* nie. (not a single time)

You've never (ever) called me, when I was in hospital. - Du hast mich *gar* nie angerufen, als ich im Krankenhaus war.  ( = not a single time)


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## Hutschi

Thank you, Nievedemango. In this case there must be regional differences in usage, for example. I do not know this kind of usage.

I know "Er hat mich *gar *nicht angerufen!" with stress on "gar". But I do not know this with "nie".

What is the meaning of "gar" in your case? 
"Gar nicht" it is "überhaupt nicht".
"Gar nie" with "nie" is stressed and it is a single phrase, it  is "niemals"+old style.

"Er hat mich *gar *angerufen!"= He called me, I'm astonished.
"Er hat mich *gar* nie angerufen!" = sounds very strange to me. But it seems to be possible in certain context.


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## nievedemango

Hutschi, we always stress *gar*:  *gar* nie, *gar* nicht.  It's just to put emphasis on nie and nicht. It's not old-fashioned at all, believe me! We use it every day.

These languages!  Sometimes they make us crazy!! 

Have a nice week!


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## berndf

nievedemango said:


> It's not old-fashioned at all, believe me! We use it every day.


Sentences like "Das habe ich mir noch *gar *nie überlegt" with stess on "gar" sound vaguely familiar. But it has a distinct regional touch: Hoch/Höchst-Alemannisch, i.e. German speaking Switzerland, Vorarlberg and South-Baden. Are you from that region?


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## nievedemango

Yes, berndf, I'm from this region.  But I haven't always lived here. During several years of language- and other studies at different universities I lived in other parts of Germany. 
Are you from the German-speaking part of Switzerland?

 Das Adverb '*gar*' im Sinne von '*überhaupt*' (hier absolute Synonyme) kann u. a. eine *Verneinung verstärken*, sofern es DAVOR steht.

Ich gehe *gar nie* ins Kino.

Du hast *gar keine* Wahl.

Das spielt *gar keine* Rolle.

Ich habe heute noch *gar nichts* gegessen.

Gurken schmecken mir *gar nicht*.


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## Hutschi

In Sächsisch und in regionaler Umgangssprache gibt es hier "gar ni" mit kurzem "i" in diesem Zusammenhang. Das hat Betonung auf "gar". Es ist mir vorhin nur deshalb nicht eingefallen, weil der Längenunterschied relevant ist.
In Itzgründisch wäre es "gar net".

Vielleicht ist es aber eine verwandte Form ... ?

Das "ni" bedeutet "nicht", während "nie" "niemals" bedeutet.

Wie wird das "nie" in "gar nie" ausgesprochen? Mit langem Vokal oder mit Diphtong?
Ich kenne wenige Wörter, in denen lange Vokale unbetont gesprochen werden.


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## berndf

I am from Hamburg but I've been living in Switzerland for quite some time now but in the French speaking part. 

_Gar nichts, gar nicht _and _gar keine_ with stress on _gar _and used as an intensifier are common in all areas but _gar nie _is much less common outside of the said area. I would rather use_ überhaupt _as an intensifier with _nie_.


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## nievedemango

Hutschi said:


> Wie wird das "nie" in "gar nie" ausgesprochen? Mit langem Vokal oder mit Diphtong?
> Ich kenne wenige Wörter, in denen lange Vokale unbetont gesprochen werden.



Das *nie* wird immer mit langem *i* gesprochen.  Mit kurzem *i* habe ich es noch gar nie gehört.


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## berndf

nievedemango said:


> Mit kurzem *i* habe ich es noch gar nie gehört.


Das dürfte an mangelnder Vertrautheit mit sächsischer Regionalsprache liegen, in der "ni" mit kurzem "i", wie gesagt, "nicht" bedeutet und nicht "nie".


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## perpend

I studied a year in Karlsruhe and am familiar with the usage of "gar", i.e., "gar nie" sounds normal to me, for what it's worth in this context, which, oops, that's right, we're not entirely sure what Fmurr is trying to say.


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## Fmurr

berndf said:


> @Fmurr: Tu veux exprimer "Je n'ai jamais mangé un  pain tellement bon [avant/ailleurs]"? C'est juste?



OUI  
plus ou moins 
Depuis que je suis dans cette région
Zeit ich, in diese region bin

P.S. : I did not think that a simple piece of bread would generate such a discussion  
nice to learn so many things about german language.

Merci beaucoup à tous
thanks to everybody
danke schön


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## berndf

Fmurr said:


> OUI
> C'est exact
> genau


Merci de me le confirmer. 



perpend said:


> Thanks for the reply, Bernd. Now, in the meantime, I'm wondering what the OP was meaning to convey. I may have misunderstood.


Now it is clear. The intended meaning is conveyed by:_ Ich habe *solch* gutes Brot (noch) nie gegessen._ Replacing _solch_ by _solches_ would alter the meaning in a way that was not intended.


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