# Seleucus etymology



## CitizenEmpty

I'm always curious about the etymology of Seleucus from Seleucus I Nicator. It's because it isn't available on Google search results and such.


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## ahvalj

I haven't found any suitable entry in Beekes' "Etymological dictionary of Greek". After all, Seleucus was a Macedonian, member an ethnic group that spoke a distinct language, albeit related to Greek, so there may be no known etymology.


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## apmoy70

ahvalj said:


> I haven't found any suitable entry in Beekes' "Etymological dictionary of Greek". After all, Seleucus was a Macedonian, member an ethnic group that spoke a distinct language, albeit related to Greek, so there may be no known etymology.


If I'm not mistaken, you were the one who posted on this very forum that Beekes is notorious for:
"following [Beekes] a procedure of regarding every Greek word without transparent IE connections a borrowing" (or pre-Greek, or unknown) 

It's clearly of Greek origin => Classical Gr. adj. *«ζάλευκος» záleukŏs* (< *«διάλευκος»*) > Northwestern dialectal *«ζέλευκος» zéleukŏs* (< Thessalian *«διέλευκος»*) > *«Σέλευκος»*


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## ahvalj

apmoy70 said:


> If I'm not mistaken, you were the one who posted on this very forum that Beekes is notorious for:
> "following [Beekes] a procedure of regarding every Greek word without transparent IE connections a borrowing" (or pre-Greek, or unknown)
> 
> It's clearly of Greek origin => Classical Gr. adj. *«ζάλευκος» záleukŏs* (< *«διάλευκος»*) > Northwestern dialectal *«ζέλευκος» zéleukŏs* (< Thessalian *«διέλευκος»*) > *«Σέλευκος»*


Are there other examples of dialectal words with _di->z-_ reflexed in Attic as _s-_?


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## apmoy70

ahvalj said:


> Are there other examples of dialectal words with _di->z-_ reflexed in Attic as _s-_?


Sure, Cretan «ὅ*ζ*οι» = Attic «ὅ*σ*οι»
Cretan «ἀνδά*ζ*ασθαι» = Attic «ἀναδά*σ*ασθαι»


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## ahvalj

apmoy70 said:


> Sure, Cretan «ὅ*ζ*οι» = Attic «ὅ*σ*οι»
> Cretan «ἀνδά*ζ*ασθαι» = Attic «ἀναδά*σ*ασθαι»


In both these cases the Attic _σ_ is etymological (_ὅσοϛ<ὅϛ_ by extending the original form; sigmatic aorist in the Infinitive), so the Cretan _ζ_ must have resulted from a secondary voicing. To substantiate the _Seleucus_ etymology suggested above we need to find examples when a new dialectal initial _z_ comes from _di̯_ (new because _δια_ originates from *_diha_<*_disa_, i. e. is post-Mycenean — in contrast to the Common Greek _ζ<i̯_ like in _ζύγον<*i̯ugom_ and _ζ<di̯_ like in _Ζεύς<*Di̯e:u̯s_) and is heard by the Attic speakers as a voiceless _σ_.


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## apmoy70

ahvalj said:


> In both these cases the Attic _σ_ is etymological (_ὅσοϛ<ὅϛ_ by extending the original form; sigmatic aorist in the Infinitive), so the Cretan _ζ_ must have resulted from a secondary voicing. To substantiate the _Seleucus_ etymology suggested above we need to find examples when a new dialectal initial _z_ comes from _di̯_ (new because _δια_ originates from *_diha_<*_disa_, i. e. is post-Mycenean — in contrast to the Common Greek _ζ<i̯_ like in _ζύγον<*i̯ugom_ and _ζ<di̯_ like in _Ζεύς<*Di̯e:u̯s_) and is heard by the Attic speakers as a voiceless _σ_.


Oh I didn't get your previous question, does the Northwestern toponymic «Μεζορίσκος/Μεζωρίσκος» count, Attic «Μεσορίσκος»?


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## ahvalj

apmoy70 said:


> Oh I didn't get your previous question, does the Northwestern toponymic «Μεζορίσκος/Μεζωρίσκος» count, Attic «Μεσορίσκος»?


If it is related to _μέσος_ (<*_methi̯os_<*_medhi̯os_), it is either a result of a later voicing of the intervocal _s_ as in your Cretan examples, or a non-Greek change at all since it seems to reflect _dhi̯_ as _di̯_ (like in the famous correspondence between Macedonian _Berenica_ and Greek _Pherenikē where *bher->ber- _in Macedonian but _pher-_ in Greek).

I would like to remind my statement from the post #2: Macedonian, while related to Greek, was a separate language, and we need not etymologize every Macedonian lexeme from the Greek sources. We even don't know what was the fate of the IE _s-_ in this language: did it change to _h-_ as in Greek or was preserved. Judging from _Berenica_=_Pherenike_, Macedonian had a different fate of the IE voiced aspirates, which is a pretty dramatic difference that otherwise separates IE branches and not dialects within a language.


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## Perseas

ahvalj said:


> I would like to remind my statement from the post #2: Macedonian, while related to Greek, was a separate language,


Is this an argument that "Σέλευκος" has not a Greek etymology? The subject of this thread is the *etymology of this name* and not the Macedonian language in general, which according to most linguists was not a separate language.


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## ahvalj

Perseas said:


> Is this an argument that "Σέλευκος" has not a Greek etymology? The subject of this thread is the *etymology of this name* and not the Macedonian language in general, which according to most linguists was not a separate language.


We know very little about that language, but from what is attested the separate reflexation of the IE voiced aspirates in Macedonian (_bh, dh, gh>b, d, g_ vs. _ph, th, kh_ in Greek) is a very, very serious difference, as I had written. Plus, Macedonians were not considered Greeks by Greeks themselves as far as I know. Imagine you have glosses of an unknown language where _guten Tag_ means _good day _and_ treiben _means_ to drive: _when you known nothing more, you can consider it a strangely distorted English.


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## ahvalj

apmoy70 said:


> Oh I didn't get your previous question, does the Northwestern toponymic «Μεζορίσκος/Μεζωρίσκος» count, Attic «Μεσορίσκος»?


By the way, why search random examples when there is the prefix _dia_-? If the pattern _dia_->_sa_-/_se_- existed, you should be able to find several examples, at least in the onomastic material.


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## apmoy70

ahvalj said:


> By the way, why search random examples when there is the prefix _dia_-? If the pattern _dia_->_sa_-/_se_- existed, you should be able to find several examples, at least in the onomastic material.


V. «Διαβαίνω» > Attic «Διαβαττάρας» > Northwestern «Ζαβαττάρας» > Maced. «Σαβαττάρας» . Check Hoffmann and Promponas.
Lose the attitude.
Thanks.


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## ahvalj

apmoy70 said:


> V. «Διαβαίνω» > Attic «Διαβαττάρας» > Northwestern «Ζαβαττάρας» > Maced. «Σαβαττάρας» . Check Hoffmann and Promponas.
> Lose the attitude.
> Thanks.


I can't comment right now: will check the literature in the evening. Meanwhile, couldn't you explain me the word-formational structure of _Diabattaras_: _dia_- and _ba_- are transparent, but what kind of suffix is -_ttar_- (sounds Hittite: does it exist elsewhere in Greek?) and why does this word follow the 1st declension? Also, are _Diabattaras_ and _Zabattaras_ attested or hypothetical forms?


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## ahvalj

As far as I understand, you've used this source: http://www.palaeolexicon.com/ShowWord.aspx?Id=21879 and http://www.palaeolexicon.com/ShowWord.aspx?Id=21886

From what I was able to verify, _Σα__β__βάτα__ρας_ or _Σα__β__β__α__τα__ρᾶς _(depending on the publication) is indeed attested as a Macedonian anthroponym. This word, however, is isolated in the sense that we know of no other Macedonian words of a similar structure that would allow to analyze its morphemic composition (i. e. where is the root and where are prefixes of suffixes). The connection with _διαβαίνω_ suggested there is thus pure speculation.

The situation with the Macedonian language, as well as the above etymology for _Seleucus_ are discussed e. g. in _Katičić R · 1976 · Ancient languages of the Balkans. Part one_ (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_7IkEzr9hyJYjZlQk1YbkVUYmc/edit?usp=sharing): 100–116. Yet, in the absence at least 2 or 3 examples testifying the strange shift _z>s_ required for this etymology, I am not convinced. The sound expressed by the Greek _ζ_ did exist in Macedonian, as suggested by the Macedonian _ἄλιζa_ found in Hesychius (Katičić: 110), so there is so far no evidence that we're dealing here with a Macedonian substitution of the dialectal Greek _z_.


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## Perseas

Are things more clear with  "-λευκος"? (Σέλευκος)?


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## ahvalj

Perseas said:


> Are things more clear with  "-λευκος"? (Σέλευκος)?


_Rōmānus_: are things more clear with "-_ānus_"? These charade etymologies don't necessarily work. Besides, _leu̯k'os_ was the IE word for "light, white", it must have existed at some period in any IE branch, so its very presence in Macedonian doesn't guarantee that we will ever learn what _se_- means in that language.


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## Perseas

ahvalj said:


> Besides, _leu̯k'os_ was the IE word for "light, white", it must have existed at some period in any IE branch,


... which however was preserved in Greek and Macedonian, and the most significant with the same ending and declension; cf. the Macedonian river Λεύκος (gen. Λεύκου) or the name Αλέξανδρος (Αλεξάνδρου) etc, etc.


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## ahvalj

Perseas said:


> ... which however was preserved in Greek and Macedonian, and the most significant with the same ending and declension; cf. the Macedonian river Λεύκος (gen. Λεύκου) or the name Αλέξανδρος (Αλεξάνδρου) etc, etc.


There seem to be only two possible variants of the morphemic structure of this name: _Sel-eu-c-o-s_ (cf. e. g. the Ukrainian _sel'uk_ "countryside dweller" from *_sel-eu̯-k-o-s_ or *_sel-ı̯-ou̯-k-o-s_ < _selo_ Slavic and IE "village, settlement") or _Se-leuc-o-s_, the latter variant obviously resembling _leucos_ but with an obscure meaning of the first element (prefix?). That's the maximum that can be extracted with our present knowledge. The variant with _dia->za->se-_ suggested above is not impossible but requires justification with other examples of _dia->se-_.


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## ahvalj

By the way, _Селюк/Selyuk_ is a real Ukrainian surname, so a Macedonian man could have perfectly had a cognomen with such a plebeian meaning. Not that I insist on this etymology, but it is based on attested morphemes of IE origin without any undocumented sound shifts.


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## Perseas

Isn't somewhat risky to examine a possible connection of Σελευκος (4th century BC) with a Slavic > Ukrainian word? I mean, an Illyrian or a Thracian element would make more sense to me. Apart from that, personally I agree with the explanation given in post #3.


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## ahvalj

Perseas said:


> Isn't somewhat risky to examine a possible connection of Σελευκος (4th century BC) with a Slavic > Ukrainian word? I mean, an Illyrian or a Thracian element would make more sense to me. Apart from that, personally I agree with the explanation given in post #3.


There is nothing specifically Slavic or Ukrainian in this root or suffix. _Selo_ "village" is related e. g. to Lithuanian _sala_ "island" or OHG _sаl_ "house" (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/salle). All the elements of the modern Ukrainian _sel'uk_ are ancient and may be derived, sound after sound, from the requested IE *_sele__u̯kos. _Even if the Macedonian meaning of this word is different, this example testifies that the morphemic boundaries suggested by the _dia-leuc-o-s_ variant are not the only ones possible, and _sel_- as easily can turn out to be a root. As to _se-leucos_, nobody still has presented a pattern when the prefix _dia_- turns into the Macedonian _se_-.


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## ahvalj

By the way, there is one interesting full-word correspondence between the Balkanic and Balto-Slavic areals with this suffix. There is a Ukrainian surname _Бобрюк/Bobryuk_ from the word _бобр/bobr_ "beaver", originating respectively from *_bhobhreu̯kos_ and *_bhobhros (_cp._ beaver http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/beaver)_. In Lithuanian, _bebriukas_ (from *_bhebhrukos_ with an analogical palatalization) means "a small beaver" (https://www.google.com/search?q=beb...79&bih=853#nfpr=1&q=bebriukas&rls=en&tbm=isch). The root in Slavic has an o-grade and the suffix is in the full e-grade, in Lithuanian the root is in an e-grade and the suffix has a zero-grade. All the four words are thematic. There was a trybe _Bebryces/Bebrycoi_ in Bithynia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bebryces), whose name, among other variants, can be considered totemic and etymologized as *_bhebhrukes_ (the same as in Lithuanian but with an older, athematic, stem) and *_bhebhrukoı̯_ (exactly the same as in Lithuanian). The reflexation _*bh>b_ is attested for Thracian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_language, see _briloun_ "barber").


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## ahvalj

To conclude, a note about the relationships of the vowel grades in the related suffixes (_-e__u̯__ko-/-o__u̯__ko-/-uko-_) from the above examples. There is another full-word correspondence between Lithuanian and Greek, showing a different grade of the same suffix: the Greek _πόλις_ "polis" — _πολίτης_ "citizen" (with a long ῑ: http://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/-ίτης#Ancient_Greek) vs. the Lithuanian _pilìs_ "castle" — _piliẽtis_ "citizen", with _ie<ei_. Not 100% the same, since a long Greek vowel corresponds to a short (circumflex) Lithuanian diphthong, but nevertheless we can see the correspondence between a zero grade vs. an e-grade in the same word. That all is meant to substantiate the idea that _Sel-euco-s_ with the rare suffix -_euco_- may be as valid a variant as _Se-leuco-s_ with a so far not attested prefix _se-_.


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## ahvalj

Unfortunately, no new evidence about _Σέλευκος,_ just a correction: Fraenkel (_Fraenkel E · 1962 · Litauisches etymologisches Wörterbuch:_ 590–591 — https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_7IkEzr9hyJR0d1QjRhbmNzdU0) suggests that the Lithuanian _pilietis_ "citizen" (mentioned in #23) is a 19th century neologism. Yet, I would add, the root and the suffix are both ancient.


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