# Brunette



## Outsider

An interesting discussion in a neighbouring forum prompted me to post this question.

Looking in a dictionary, the word "brunette" can refer to hair colour _or_ to skin tone (or both). However, some native American English speakers have stated that they only recall using this word to refer to hair colour.

What is your experience?

Thank you.


----------



## Dimcl

Outsider said:


> An interesting discussion in a neighbouring forum prompted me to post this question.
> 
> Looking in a dictionary, the word "brunette" can refer to hair colour _or_ to skin tone (or both). However, some native American English speakers have stated that they only recall using this word to refer to hair colour.
> 
> What is your experience?
> 
> Thank you.


 
In Canada, "brunette" would only refer to hair colour.


----------



## angie_m

I am from the US and we just use it to refer to brown/dark hair. Skin tone description is usually seperate. Like "brunette and olive skinned" or "blonde and fair."


----------



## Sabelotodo

I'm from the U.S., and I would never use brunette to describe anything but human hair.  I wouldn't even use it to describe animal hair.  

The difference probably came about because in the U.S. we have citizens from so many different backgrounds, with so many different combinations of coloring, that we don't think of hair and skin color as being linked.  My cousin who has almost black hair also has pale, nearly white skin.  I would call her a fair-skinned brunette.  My boss has reddish blonde hair and very dark skin--darker than many African-Americans.  I would call her a dark-complected blonde.

To describe skin, I would say _dark, light, fair, _or_ medium-tone_.  To describe dark/light color of skin caused by sun exposure or lack of sun, I would use _tan/tanned_ or _pale_.


----------



## Outsider

Sabelotodo said:


> The difference probably came about because in the U.S. we have citizens from so many different backgrounds, with so many different combinations of coloring, that we don't think of hair and skin color as being linked.  My cousin who has almost black hair also has pale, nearly white skin.  I would call her a fair-skinned brunette.  My boss has reddish blonde hair and very dark skin--darker than many African-Americans.  I would call her a dark-complected blonde.


Yes, I realise that there is not a perfect correlation between skin tone and hair colour. I am not saying that. But in languages like Spanish there is one word which, _according to context_, may mean "dark-skinned", without implying anything about hair colour, or "dark-haired", without implying anything about skin tone. 
I am asking whether "brunette" has this dual meaning in English.


----------



## Vanda

So, maybe that the term would be _brunet_, not brunette, to refer to a dark complexion or coloring according to this dictionary?


----------



## .   1

Brunette refers to hair colour only otherwise it would be difficult to be a bottle brunette .

.,,


----------



## Outsider

Vanda said:


> So, maybe that the term would be _brunet_, not brunette, to refer to a dark complexion or coloring according to this dictionary?


I believe "brunet" is used for males and "brunette" for females. Other than that, it's the same word.


----------



## foxfirebrand

In AE, as I see it anyway, a brunette is a dark haired woman of Euro/Mediterranean descent.  You wouldn't describe an Asian or an African as "brunette," even though the hair color matches perfectly.

It's not just that we only use the word for hair-- in fact if you think about it we _do_ combine hair and skin, but in an exclusionary way.

It's also a word we think of as "French," which on some level reinforces this European-only usage-- it's as though a woman has to "look French" to be a brunette.  Yes, I know-- we get _blonde_ from the French too.

The male form, _brunet_ is not in common use in AE, and would be recognized by many only as a "misspelling."  The blond/blonde distinction exists, but we don't tend to call a man "a blond," and when the adjective is used it is often spelled incorrectly, with the _e._

I know I'll catch a lot of flak for this, but get on some African-American chat boards and some hair-care boards and talk the subject up if you don't believe me.  I'm not just pulling this out of my...uh, hat.
.


----------



## untold

Outsider said:


> Yes, I realise that there is not a perfect correlation between skin tone and hair colour. I am not saying that. But in languages like Spanish there is one word which, _according to context_, may mean "dark-skinned", without implying anything about hair colour, or "dark-haired", without implying anything about skin tone.
> I am asking whether "brunette" has this *dual meaning* in English.


 
 Simply put no. Not in modern usage. For dark skin, we say "that person is dark-skinned" or has dark skin. Or you can say that person is tan. 



foxfirebrand said:


> In AE, as I see it anyway, a brunette is a dark haired woman of Euro/Mediterranean descent.  Y*ou wouldn't describe an Asian or an African as "brunette," even though the hair color matches perfectly.
> *
> It's not just that we only use the word for hair-- in fact if you think about it we _do_ combine hair and skin, but in an exclusionary way.
> 
> It's also a word we think of as "French," which on some level reinforces this European-only usage-- it's as though a woman has to "look French" to be a brunette. Yes, I know-- we get _blonde_ from the French too.
> 
> The male form, _brunet_ is not in common use in AE, and would be recognized by many only as a "misspelling." The blond/blonde distinction exists, but we don't tend to call a man "a blond," and when the adjective is used it is often spelled incorrectly, with the _e._
> 
> I know I'll catch a lot of flak for this, but get on some African-American chat boards and some hair-care boards and talk the subject up if you don't believe me. I'm not just pulling this out of my...uh, hat.
> .



I'm not trying to be argumentative or anything but I'm African-American and have always considered myself brunette. When I go to the salon thats how it is also


----------



## foxfirebrand

untold said:


> not to be argumentative or anything but i'm african-american and have always considered myself brunette. in the salon thats how it is too


Well, I'm sure not going to argue with you about your own experience.  We may be talking about race-specific usage-- but my comment about hair and race-issues forums refers to a lot of research I've done, and I once got "called out" specifically for using _brunette_ on one occasion.  It's a long story I won't go into, but it did happen, and it caused a lot of discussion about the differences between white and black.  I don't have to tell you that hair is a very crucial question among black people, "political" even-- in ways that we whites don't remotely realize.

The upshot was, for even using the word _brunette_ I was accused, with some hostility, of tryin to "cross over."  Another poster said it was a fancy-ass word like _Negro_ and I should put it out of its misery.

As for the difference between all that and your own experience, there are any number of questions I'd like to ask, but they might be construed as nosy or even rude.  There may be regional differences to account for it, and it might be a young-vs-old thing too.
.


----------



## untold

foxfirebrand said:


> Well, I'm sure not going to argue with you about your own experience. We may be talking about race-specific usage-- but my comment about hair and race-issues forums refers to a lot of research I've done, and I once got *"called out" *specifically for using _brunette_ on one occasion. It's a long story I won't go into, but it did happen, and it caused a lot of discussion about the differences between white and black. I don't have to tell you that hair is a very crucial question among black people, "political" even-- in ways that we whites don't remotely realize.
> 
> The upshot was, for even using the word _brunette_ I was accused, with some hostility, of tryin to "cross over."  Another poster said it was a fancy-ass word like _Negro_ and I should put it out of its misery.
> 
> As for the difference between all that and your own experience, there are any number of questions I'd like to ask, but they might be construed as nosy or even rude. There may be regional differences to account for it, and it might be a young-vs-old thing too.
> .




I can't imagine something like that happening where I'm from. That's insane to me, but on the other hand, hair is a big issue for African-Americans.  Go ahead ask away I don't mind. If the question is too personal, I'll let you know. Semd me a private message with the questions so we don't waste forum space. I'm happy to help


----------



## Taquito_1

Im Brunette!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## GenJen54

.. said:
			
		

> Brunette refers to hair colour only otherwise it would be difficult to be a bottle brunette .


Don't kid yourself! Remember, we also have "self-tanning" lotions and sprays which can turn one's skin to a strangely nice but streaky orangy-bronzish color!  



			
				untold said:
			
		

> I'm not trying to be argumentative or anything but I'm African-American and have always considered myself brunette. When I go to the salon thats how it is also





> In AE, as I see it anyway, a brunette is a dark haired woman of Euro/Mediterranean descent. You wouldn't describe an Asian or an African as "brunette," even though the hair color matches perfectly.


 
Strangely enough, I agree with both of these. To me, given today's plethora of available hair coloring products (I'm a Feria No. 56, by the way) you can very well see African Americans or Asians, who by genetics are mostly "brunette" (meaning having dark *hair*) walking around with golden or other non-brunette tresses.

I have never heard nor used "brunette" to mean* dark of skin.*


----------



## .   1

GenJen54 said:


> Don't kid yourself! Remember, we also have "self-tanning" lotions and sprays which can turn one's skin to a strangely nice but streaky orangy-bronzish color!


 
Would you describe yourself as being brunette or would you describe yourself as being of altered or adulterated hair colour or do you sau that you are a Feria No. 56 ?

Just about all Asian or African-American people I have seen have black hair whereas brunette is always a shade of brown.

.,,


----------



## panjandrum

Here is a local interpretation.
Brunette, hair colour only; no explicit connection with skin colour other than whatever nature correlates.
Brunet, never heard of it?


----------



## .   1

The Collins dictionary seems to indicate that _brunet _is a masculine French word and _brunette _is the feminine equivalent.

.,,


----------



## Vanda

I still have doubts. I'm not an African-American, I am not Asian, I am not blond. I thought I was brunet/brunette (like in the French word), but am not. I am not tanned right now, because it has been a while I got tanned. My skin is neither white, nor black. Many Brazilians are like me, a mixture of Indian (Braz) and European races, with tanned/olive/pale (?) skin. My skin color is ...... ?


----------



## 50something

I agree with Barbara about the difference between usage and meaning. I also agree with you guys that brunette is used in a hair-wise context, however, I still think that in spanish means a balanced combination of both (hair and skin). Fine, brunette is widely used regarding hair colour. But, we all have seen blacks, whites, asians with brunette hair color right?, however, they are not morenos(as), they are blancos, negros, asiaticos. On the other hand, I have seen "morenas claras" with beautiful long blonde or red hair. How do you feel about it?


----------



## languageGuy

Again, a poll where my choice isn't listed.  I don't use term brunette that often; I think it has become rather dated. When I do use it, it is never to refer to hair color or skin color directly, but rather to refer to a woman who has brown hair (never a man). I don't say 'Her hair is brunette' or 'She has brunette hair'.  I would use 'brown' in both those cases. I might say 'She is A brunette,' especially when contrasting with blondes and redheads.


----------



## Brioche

For me, _a_ _brunette_ is a 
_young_ 
_woman_ [of European descent] with 
_dark hair_.

I think it's becoming dated, reminiscent of a Raymond Chandler detective story.
_"General Sternwood's daughters came in both the colours of trouble - blonde and brunette - and they had all the usual vices."_

It's also a bit demeaning, as it is equating the woman with her hair colour _She *is* a brunette,_
rather than_ She happens to have brown hair._


----------



## comsci

. said:


> Would you describe yourself as being brunette or would you describe yourself as being of altered or adulterated hair colour or do you sau that you are a Feria No. 56 ?
> 
> Just about all Asian or African-American people I have seen have black hair whereas brunette is always *a shade of brown*.
> 
> Can't agree more, I'm Asian and I have black hair and I'm no *brunette* unless dyed.  And I have seen enough Asian people around me from empirical experience so I'm pretty sure I'm telling nothing but truth.


----------



## foxfirebrand

Brioche said:


> For me, _a_ _brunette_ is a
> _young_ _woman_ [of European descent] with
> _dark hair_.
> 
> It's also a bit demeaning, as it is equating the woman with her hair colour _She *is* a brunette,_
> rather than_ She happens to have brown hair._



I usually agree with your observations, and we do agree on the meaning of _brunette_.  But are you really *that*politically correct?

I love brunettes and redheads, but have only ever married blondes.  A true statement-- but do I have to now translate it into a fat paragraph about what color of hair this or that woman "happens to have?"

The difference between redhead and blonde and brunette is essential and to-the-core.  It is as much a matter of bouquet as eye appeal, and chemistry is as good a way of benignly categorizing human types as any other criterion.

If you resist "reducing" people to a profile of their salient characteristics, and do so rigorously enough, you end up with a bland featureless non-picture of humanity that has no appeal to the senses-- including common sense.
.


----------



## chesty

Hello.

I think it's fair to say that within Asian cultures, there not much variance in hair colour, and i would wager that this is reflected in Asian languages.

Am i right?


----------



## chesty

Hello.

I am aware of the negative stereotyping of blondes (sorry fox) as being a bit silly, and of red heads as being ill tempered. I am ignorant of any such stereotyping of brunettes. Does it exist?


----------



## foxfirebrand

chesty said:


> Hello.
> 
> I am aware of the negative stereotyping of blondes (sorry fox) as being a bit silly, and of red heads as being ill tempered. I am ignorant of any such stereotyping of brunettes. Does it exist?


There are positive qualities attributed to all three groups of women.  The point is, all three *exist.*Get your nose in some hair now and then and you'll discern vast differences, and get a hint of the whole mystique involved.  Intellectualizing about it just gets in the way of understanding, in my way-less-than-exalted opinion.
.


----------



## chesty

Hey there mr. fox, i was only apologising for my spelling of blondes (sorry fox)!

 Please don't feel embattled, i am broadly sympathetic to your position, at least in the way that it was originally stated.

 I only asked because i honestly don't know.


----------



## foxfirebrand

Hey, it's okay, I wasn't being argumentative-- just making a suggestion in urgent and empassioned terms.  Rather than talk about hair-color stereotypes, let's get _familiar_ with individual exemplars, with an eye to emphasizing their virtues.  Let's find intelligent blondes, even-tempered redheads and contemplative brunettes who trim their toenails and don't disturb the peace with their ill-timed caterwauling at all hours of a peaceful summer night.  And usually in broken English.

Maybe then the ladies will look at _us_ with an unjaundiced eye, and we can get this World Peace thing off to a slow-lumbering start.

No matter what our hair color!
.


----------



## Outsider

comsci said:


> Just about all Asian or African-American people I have seen have black hair whereas brunette is always *a shade of brown*.


Are you a native speaker of English? Because that's not what the dictionaries say...


----------



## Anjie

I think this discussion has to do with things being different in translation, First of all the word brunette is most likely of french origin thus brunette is feminine adj. and brunet is the original male adj.

In English brunette only refers to hair colour nothing else.
In Portuguese a brunette (moreno) can refer to hair and/or skin colour same with Spanish depending on location.


----------



## Porteño

100% with panjandrum


----------



## 50something

Agree about the english definition and usage. So Anjie, what do you call a "morena" in english then?


----------



## Brioche

foxfirebrand said:


> I usually agree with your observations, and we do agree on the meaning of _brunette_. But are you really *that *politically correct?
> 
> .


 
I asked my dearly beloved, and she does not think that 'brunette' has even a hint of disrespect. She says that 'brunette' refers only to hair colour, and only to nubile Europeans.


----------



## Porteño

Vanda, would it be insulting to call you 'mulatta' or 'mestizo'? Both words are used in English to describe people of mixed race/colour,  especially European+Indigenous.


----------



## Vanda

> 'mulatta' or 'mestizo'.


 No, if I were one of them. I am _morena,_ whatever the word in English is, cause till now, I am not sure.


----------



## Outsider

Porteño, have you seen the picture in Vanda's user profile?


----------



## Porteño

No, Outsider, I can't see any picture on her profile.


----------



## Porteño

Hi! Vanda. Yes, _morena_ is a word I am very familiar with having lived for many years in your beautiful country. However, the translation floors me. I looked at this site but it doesn't really help any since the writer has the same problem!
http://minerva.union.edu/micklasc/Brazil/Morena.htm


----------



## Anjie

cochabamba said:


> Agree about the english definition and usage. So Anjie, what do you call a "morena" in english then?


 
Brown-skinned girl.


----------



## Porteño

Y _morocha_?


----------



## mjscott

What is a _morocha_? 
I use _brunette_ for hair color only--with no offense taken. I would say dark-skinned girl for _morena_.


----------



## foxfirebrand

Anjie said:


> Brown-skinned girl.


In AE that phrase refers to a shade of _black--_ in other words an African-American.  It's a dark stripe in the rainbow, way beyond "well-tanned," but you're noticeably short of black.

For a non-African who was unusually dark, I'd say "dark-skinned."  
.


----------



## maindia

And I would add one more question to complicate things a little more:

how do you call men who have brown/dark skin/hair??
(or a "moreno" - which gererally implies a good looking man!)
 ​


----------



## foxfirebrand

maindia said:


> (or a "moreno" - which gererally implies a good looking man!)


Well, we have the set phrase "tall, dark and handsome."  Otherwise we just use adjectives for hair and skin color-- we don't tend to "type" men by surface appearance quite the way we do women.  I'm just describing what I observe, not saying it's "right."

Amazing we haven't said a mumbling word about *eye* color in all this discussion.
.


----------



## .   1

I have a friend with blond hair who is happy to be described as being blond but is irritated by being called a blond.

One small word makes all the difference.

To refer to a person as being brunette is a simple reference to hair colour but to describe the person as being a brunette seems to include many stereotypes.

.,,


----------



## Porteño

De acuerdo con el diccionario Larousse, una morocha se define como morena en Argentina. Se considera que ambas tiene pelo oscuro.


----------



## foxfirebrand

. said:


> I have a friend with blond hair who is happy to be described as being blond but is irritated by being called a blond.
> 
> One small word makes all the difference.
> 
> To refer to a person as being brunette is a simple reference to hair colour but to describe the person as being a brunette seems to include many stereotypes.


Hmm...it's more than the indefinite article that makes the difference here, I suspect.  We don't call a *man* "a blond" because in spoken AE you don't hear whether there's a femining _-e_ or not.  So "a blonde" is, by default setting, a woman.

If people want to be offended by women being categorized as blondes, brunettes and redheads-- fine, let them.  But there's plenty of commonsense opinion to the contrary, you can find some of it in this thread.

When I was a young teenager in Naples, I was greeted or hailed on the street as _biondo_ in spite of the fact that I had fairly dark brown hair.  From their point of view, I was a blond, and calling me that was a test of my humility, even temper and sense of humor-- used in all seriousness, it would've been a derogatory term meaning an outsider from the north.  I was also called _tedesco _(German), a slightly more insulting term except for the jocular intonation.  Other terms are used when you want to get a darker person's attention-- _oe, turco!_  or _saraceno._  Joke-insult terms also.

Just a cultural note, but to the point-- my taking umbrage would've been the wrong course, among these supremely common-sensical people.  There's no way they'll ever stop using these terms, and if they were forced to substitute them, they'd find a way to convey insult by intonation.

I had the same thought myself earlier, by the way, about "blond" being an acceptable word to describe a man with, and "a blond" being inappropriate-- but because of the gender thing.
.


----------



## .   1

foxfirebrand said:


> Hmm...it's more than the indefinite article that makes the difference here, I suspect. We don't call a *man* "a blond" because in spoken AE you don't hear whether there's a femining _-e_ or not. So "a blonde" is, by default setting, a woman.
> 
> I had the same thought myself earlier, by the way, about "blond" being an acceptable word to describe a man with, and "a blond" being inappropriate-- but because of the gender thing.
> .


Queensland Premier Peter Beattie is blond but is most certainly not a blond.
Footballer Warwick Capper is a blond as is Cricketer Shane Warne.
I am not familiar with the current crop of popettes but there would be more than a random number of personalities who actively endorse the 'a blond' image as it is non threatening and sells advertising as that image sells anything.
I have seen a number of blond personalities give very heightened performers as ditzy blonds and they are hugely funny but they can not be taken seriously.  Those girls are razor sharp and playing the marks off a break.

.,,


----------



## MarX

Hi!

I use the word _brunette_ to refer to hair color only. That is: brown.

Saludos,


MarX


----------



## rainbow84uk

I'd use it for hair only, and for women only (I've never seen _brunet _used in British English).


----------

