# caluroso, riguroso, conservadurismo



## Dymn

The answer might well be "just because", but just of curiosity, why do nouns ending in _-or _turn _-ur-_ in their derivations in Spanish (e.g. _caluroso, riguroso, conservadurismo_)? Is there any specific reason?


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## merquiades

In the case of the first perhaps it's disassociation to avoid two o's.  The accentuated o can't change so the preceding one does, so it rises to u. 
I heard a similar story about why the o in _dormir_, _morir_ and other similar verbs was raised to u in _durmió_, _murió_.  That explanation doesn't convince me completely because we have words like _goloso_ that didn't turn into *guloso.  Otherwise isn't there a dialectal tendency to raise unstressed o to u?

For _conservadurismo_ from _conservador_.  The i is very high and its anticipation could have moved the preceding o up to u.  _Conservadurismo_ is a learnèd word though, actually _caluroso_ and _riguroso_ too.  I am surprised they would have adopted them in that particular form, in the Renaissance or whenever it appeared.

All of these changes are sporadic though.


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## Sardokan1.0

This phenomenon is quite widespread in various Romance languages.

Example :

Sicilian : cal*u*rosu, rig*u*rosu, am*u*ri, d*u*rmiri, m*u*riri
French : chal*eu*reux, rig*ou*reux, am*ou*r, m*ou*rir

In Sardinian the phenomenon is present but in other situations

Italian - Sardinian

_combattere - c*u*mbattere
comportare - c*u*mportare
corrompere - c*u*rrumpere
compatire - c*u*mpatire
commuovere - c*u*mmovere
conservare - c*u*nservare
condannare - c*u*ndennare
confondere - c*u*nfundere
condire - c*u*ndire

etc.etc._


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## Circunflejo

Dymn said:


> why do nouns ending in _-or _turn _-ur-_ in their derivations in Spanish (e.g. _caluroso, riguroso, conservadurismo_)?



Just in case that it could be any useful, some of them don't make it: pudor-pudoroso, olor-oloroso, rencor-rencoroso, dolor-doloroso, sopor-soporífero, clamor-clamoroso, temblor-tembloroso, fervor-fervoroso, amor-amoroso, horror-horroroso... Well, it seems that there are a lot of them that don't make it so it seems it's not a general rule and we should look case by case.

Caloroso appears in the Dictionary of the RAE of 1803 marked as _poco usado_ and it can be find too in other dictionaries of the XIXth century (and older ones). Rigoroso can be found too in some dictionaries of the XIXth century (and older ones) but it isn't on the DRAE of 1803. However, the DRAE of 1803 includes the adverb rigorosamente (without any mark of use) and rigoroso is used to explain the meaning of _ara_.


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## Riverplatense

There's a number of Spanish words whose vocalism seems «surprising» to me. There are the words quoted by Dymn with pretonic raising /o/ > /u/ (cf. for instance It. _m*u*lino _< M*O*LINUM), but also _curso _(*_corso_) or _crepúsculo _(*_crepúscolo_) with the stressed vowels being changed. In these cases one could think of metaphony, but there's also _penumbra _(*_penombra_), and [a] is not very likely to cause metaphony, and if it does, like e. g. in Sardinian, it doesn't cause raising.

Are all these «doubtful» words _cultismos _or is there a retraceable phonological development?


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## Dymn

merquiades said:


> I heard a similar story about why the o in _dormir_, _morir_ and other similar verbs was raised to u in _durmió_, _murió_.


But the very same alternation *o/ue/u* can also be found in *e/ie/i* in some verbs, e.g. _sentir, siente, sintió. _And it's not only the 3rd singular preterite, also the 3rd plural preterite (_-ieron_), imperfect subjunctive (_-iera/iese, _etc.) and gerund (_-iendo_).



Circunflejo said:


> Just in case that it could be any useful, some of them don't make it: pudor-pudoroso, olor-oloroso, rencor-rencoroso, dolor-doloroso, sopor-soporífero, clamor-clamoroso, temblor-tembloroso, fervor-fervoroso, amor-amoroso, horror-horroroso...


You're right, this vowel raising seems to be an exception rather than the rule.



Riverplatense said:


> Are all these «doubtful» words _cultismos_


I think so. _Curso _should be _*coso_, _crepúsculo _I don't know but _-culo _hardly is a patrimonial suffix (e.g. _masculum > macho_), and _penumbra _would be *_penombra_, just as it is _sombra _and not _*sumbra_.


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## Penyafort

Dymn said:


> _crepúsculo _I don't know but _-culo _hardly is a patrimonial suffix (e.g. _masculum > macho_)



Crepúsculo should have been *_crebocho_. Which, as far as I know, never existed.

It is an obvious learned word indeed, showing up in the 15th century.


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## Cenzontle

On the Web you can find rare cases of "salvad*u*reño".


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## Circunflejo

Dymn said:


> _-culo _hardly is a patrimonial suffix (e.g. _masculum > macho_)



...but: baculum-báculo; cubiculum-cubículo; obstaculum-obstáculo; opusculum-opúsculo; oraculum-oráculo; spectaculum-espectáculo; tabernaculum-tabernáculo; tuberculum-tubérculo; vehiculum-vehículo; vinculum-vínculo...


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## Riverplatense

Circunflejo said:


> ...but: baculum-báculo; cubiculum-cubículo; obstaculum-obstáculo; opusculum-opúsculo; oraculum-oráculo; spectaculum-espectáculo; tabernaculum-tabernáculo; tuberculum-tubérculo; vehiculum-vehículo; vinculum-vínculo...



But all these words seem to be _cultismos_. One severe proof is the «Latin» vocalism, cp. post #5 and #6, the other one, as also mentioned, the Romance development of -CULUM, that was never conserved (SPECULUM > Sp. _espejo_, Ital. _specchio_, Lad. _spidl _etc.).

Edit: example


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## Circunflejo

Riverplatense said:


> But all these words seem to be _cultismos_.



I don't know. My knowledge on the subject is close to zero so I just post what I know just in case it could be any useful for those of you that know more than me. There are also Spanish words ending in -culo which Latin original ended in -culus (for example, articulus-artículo; calculus-cálculo; circulus-círculo; maiusculus-mayúsculo; minusculus-minúsculo...).


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## merquiades

What is disconcerting is espejo < speculum and macho < masculum, 2 words that aren't cultismos, give two very different results.




Dymn said:


> But the very same alternation *o/ue/u* can also be found in *e/ie/i* in some verbs, e.g. _sentir, siente, sintió. _And it's not only the 3rd singular preterite, also the 3rd plural preterite (_-ieron_), imperfect subjunctive (_-iera/iese, _etc.) and gerund (_-iendo_).


The change of o > ue and e > ie are normal results for Latin accented open o and e.
The third person changes of o > u and e > i is raising due to influence of the i.


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## Dymn

merquiades said:


> What is disconcerting is espejo < speculum and macho < masculum, 2 words that aren't cultismos, give two very different results.


Because one is after a vowel and the other one after a consonant.


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## merquiades

Periculum > peligro,  seculum > siglo.  It always seems something different


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## Kevin Beach

Perhaps for a similar reason the change from Latin masculine singular accusative *-um* to Romance *-o*. It's just a colloquial change in  pronunciation that became standard.


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## Penyafort

Circunflejo said:


> I don't know. My knowledge on the subject is close to zero so I just post what I know just in case it could be any useful for those of you that know more than me. There are also Spanish words ending in -culo which Latin original ended in -culus (for example, articulus-artículo; calculus-cálculo; circulus-círculo; maiusculus-mayúsculo; minusculus-minúsculo...).



The Spanish popular word (palabra patrimonial) coming from ARTICULUm is artejo (showing the whole evolution of -CULUm to -JO), which is old fashioned now because we call it nudillo these days. 



merquiades said:


> What is disconcerting is espejo < speculum and macho < masculum, 2 words that aren't cultismos, give two very different results.



This is because of the S. Same thing happens with the N. The original -J- in Spanish was /ʒ/ as in most other Romance languages, so one can see why merging with S and N would produce those sounds:

MASCULUm > MASC'LU > MASJO > macho
UNGULAm > UNG'LA > UNJA > uña


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## Riverplatense

merquiades said:


> Periculum > peligro, seculum > siglo. It always seems something different



These are _palabras semicultas_, that early found their way into the common language and thus underwent some other sound shifts. Another example is _regla_, which is neither _*regula_ nor _reja_; latter also shows that in some cases these half-learnt forms do have fully inherited equivalents, the same goes for TITULUM > _tilde_/_título_. By the way, another example of the _peligro _destiny is _milagro_.


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## Sardokan1.0

Riverplatense said:


> These are _palabras semicultas_, that early found their way into the common language and thus underwent some other sound shifts. Another example is _regla_, which is neither _*regula_ nor _reja_; latter also shows that in some cases these half-learnt forms do have fully inherited equivalents, the same goes for TITULUM > _tilde_/_título_. By the way, another example of the _peligro _destiny is _milagro_.



These kind of words are alive and well in Sardinian language without being cultisms; like in Spanish, in some situations the evolution has taken different paths, while in others the original form was preserved.



Spoiler



*Latin - Sardinian*

titulus - titulu
articulum - articulu
baculum - baculu (walking stick)
regula - regula
periculum - perigulu
miraculum - meraculu
seculum - seculu
calculum - calculu
nebula - ne(b)ula (the B has disappeared)
tegula - te(g)ula (same as above)

etc.etc.

different evolution :

speculum -> speclu - ispicru (nuorese) ispiju (logudorese) sprigu (campidanese)
oculum -> oclu - ocru (nuorese) oju (logudorese) ogu (campidanese)
masculum -> masclu - mascru (nuorese) masciu (logudorese, campidanese)
ungulam -> ungla - ungra (nuorese) ungia (logudorese) ugna (campidanese)
fenuculum -> fenuclu - fenugru (nuorese) fenuju (logudorese) fenugu (campidanese)
genuculum -> genuclu - ghenucru (nuorese) ghenuju (logudorese) genugu (campidanese)


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## Riverplatense

Sardokan1.0 said:


> These kind of words are alive and well in Sardinian language without being cultisms



Are you sure that the forms with preserved _-culu_ are no cultisms? Already in the _Appendix Probi_ we have _oculus non oclus_, _vetulus non veclus_ etc. Of course, Sardinian is a very special case, but the fact that there are also words with syncope (you quoted _ocru_, _fenugru _etc.) show that this shift must have happened in Sardinian as well. Shouldn't also the intervocalic /t/ in _titulu _shift to /d/ in nuorese (LUTUM > _ludu_, PETRAM > _preda _etc.). Besides, it's striking that most of the words in the first paragraph have an abstract meaning, while the ones of the second paragraph are concrete.


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## Sardokan1.0

Riverplatense said:


> Are you sure that the forms with preserved _-culu_ are no cultisms? Already in the _Appendix Probi_ we have _oculus non oclus_, _vetulus non veclus_ etc. Of course, Sardinian is a very special case, but the fact that there are also words with syncope (you quoted _ocru_, _fenugru _etc.) show that this shift must have happened in Sardinian as well. Shouldn't also the intervocalic /t/ in _titulu _shift to /d/ in nuorese (LUTUM > _ludu_, PETRAM > _preda _etc.). Besides, it's striking that most of the words in the first paragraph have an abstract meaning, while the ones of the second paragraph are concrete.



I think that they are simply archaisms, survived in the every day language, Sardinian vocabulary is full of things like these. The intervocalic T in _titulu _never becomes a D, but it's simply pronounced as T.

About "lutum" it's a different case. Lutu -> Ludu;  Petra -> Pedra (logudorese) Petra or Preta (nuorese) Preda, Perda (campidanese) ; Rota -> Rota (nuorese) Roda (logudorese, campidanese).

We can observe that the T remanins T in other words similar to Titulu :

capitulu (and not capidulu) -> exception : "capidale, cabidale" (pillow), from "capitalem" adjective derived from "caput, capitis" (head)
rotulu (and not rodulu)


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## Riverplatense

Sardokan1.0 said:


> capitulu (and not capidulu)



But also here it's a word with _-ulu_, while one would rather expect *_crapidu_.


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## Sardokan1.0

Riverplatense said:


> But also here it's a word with _-ulu_, while one would rather expect *_crapidu_.



Why _crapidu_? I would have thought someting like Capitulu -> Capitlu -> Capitru.

P.S.
Other examples of these words ending with _-ulu_ can be find in Sardinian in words coined from other words or verbs :

Example :

biccu : beak
biccare : to peck

from these two above derive :

bicculare : to peck little pieces of something here and there (like a bird or a chicken)
bìcculu : a piece of something

to break to pieces = segare a bìcculos
to eat a piece of cake = mandigare unu bìcculu 'e turta


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## Circunflejo

Riverplatense said:


> Another example is _regla_, which is neither _*regula_ nor _reja_



But there's the adjective _regular_.


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## Riverplatense

Sardokan1.0 said:


> Why _crapidu_? I would have thought someting like Capitulu -> Capitlu -> Capitru.



I thought of metathesis like in

CAP*R*AM > _c*r*apa_

PET*R*AM > _p*r*eda _(like mentioned above)

FAB*R*ICARE > _f*r*avicare_
VENT*R*EM > _b*r*ente _or even
_bicic*l*etta _(> *_bitzik*r*etta_) > _b*r*itzziketta_



Circunflejo said:


> But there's the adjective _regular_.



Yes, so I'd say that we have three developments of REGULAM:

the inherited word _reja_
the half-learnt _regla _(_arreglar _etc.)
the cultismo _regular _built on the pattern of Latin -ARIS > -AREM adjectives.


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## Sardokan1.0

Riverplatense said:


> I thought of metathesis like in
> 
> CAP*R*AM > _c*r*apa_
> 
> PET*R*AM > _p*r*eda _(like mentioned above)
> 
> FAB*R*ICARE > _f*r*avicare_
> VENT*R*EM > _b*r*ente _or even
> _bicic*l*etta _(> *_bitzik*r*etta_) > _b*r*itzziketta_
> 
> 
> Yes, so I'd say that we have three developments of REGULAM:
> 
> the inherited word _reja_
> the half-learnt _regla _(_arreglar _etc.)
> the cultismo _regular _built on the pattern of Latin -ARIS > -AREM adjectives.



Let's say that there isn't a fixed rule for this phenomenon, for the words that you mentioned there are many variants in different places of the island.


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## Riverplatense

Sardokan1.0 said:


> Let's say that there isn't a fixed rule for this phenomenon, for the words that you mentioned there are many variants in different places of the island.



Yes, I was only referring to Nuoro. But, of course, I'm not a specialist for Sardinian and even less am I a native


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