# مولى



## Huda

Please help me.

I know the meaning of this word in Arabic and it has a lot of different meanings. In my sentence it means تابع لفلان أو منتسب إليه بالولاء, but I cant translate it into English.

طاوس بن كيسان هو مولى بحير بن ريسان الحميري
Thanks in advance.


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## Egyptlover

Maybe you can use the word "follower", I'm not sure though.


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## Huda

I don't know. But Followers means the generation that succeeded the companions.


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## Faylasoof

Huda, 
You are right! The word مولى can be tricky. We discussed it earlier, here (post #7 and later). 
مولی(s.)موال ٍ(pl.):
i)_master, lord, companion, _
ii)friend, helper; 
iii)_freed man, slave, servant_;
iv)_patron, benefactor_; 
v)_client_; 
vi)neighbour, guest.

The Arabic meaning you provide can also be interpreted in a number of ways and I agree with Egyptlover’s reservation of translating مولى as <_follower_> - in fus7a at least. 

طاوس بن كيسان هو مولى بحير بن ريسان الحميري

In the above sentence there is too little to go on regarding the exact relationship between the two. However, مولى is used often in _historical source__s_ in this way so I would say, instinctively, that the following might be a likely way to translate the above:

طاوس بن كيسان is the _freed man / salve / servant_ of بحير بن ريسان الحميري

Does this make sense? 

_Of course we can’t eliminate other possibilities above_, e.g.طاوس بن كيسان _is the patron / benefactor _بحير بن ريسان الحميري etc.

If طاوس بن كيسان represents one of the _mawali_ (موالي) then, I imagine, it would be the first translation, i.e. _freed man / salve / servant_or even _client_ . In fact, there was once the _Kaysaniyyah _movement which comprised such individuals, i.e. the _mawali_ موالي. This is not to say that this person (طاوس بن كيسان) belonged to it. Just that he may be connected in some way (e.g. by decent) to those who were part of this movement. 

Do you have more on the relationship between these two?


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## Huda

> Do you have more on the relationship between these two?


In fact, I don't have more on this relationship. But I said in my first post that he was  منتسب اليه بالولاء


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## Faylasoof

Well, in that case here are some ways of expressing this realtionship:

 طاووس ابن كيسان  owed allegiance to / was an affiliate of /  was a friend of /  was a client of / was loyal to بحير بن ريسان الحميري


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## ajami

طاوس بن كيسان هو مولى بحير بن ريسان الحميري

taoos bin kaysaan was the freed slave of buhayr bin reesaan alhamayry.


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## Huda

Thanks a lot ajami. I think I need to know what مولي exactly means in my sentence because the explanation I gave isn't quite enough.


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## Faylasoof

Huda said:


> ajami said:
> 
> 
> 
> طاوس بن كيسان هو مولى بحير بن ريسان الحميري
> taoos bin kaysaan was the freed slave of buhayr bin reesaan alhamayry.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks a lot ajami. I think I need to know what مولي exactly means in my sentence because the explanation I gave isn't quite enough.
Click to expand...

 This _was_ actually my original suggestion and I see Ajami has concluded the same!


Faylasoof said:


> .....
> طاوس بن كيسان is the _freed man / salve / servant_ of بحير بن ريسان الحميري
> 
> .....
> 
> If طاوسبن كيسان represents one of the _mawali_ (موالي) then, I imagine, it would be the first translation, i.e. _freed man / salve / servant_ or even _client_ ...............


I do agree that the explanation we have (تابع لفلان أو منتسب إليه بالولاء) is not sufficiently clear. For this reason I had a quick look to see what is known about Ta2uus bin Kaysaan and it appears he was a _freedman _– a freed slave apparently of Bu7ayr bin Resaan al-7imyari.

So here مولى does mean a _freedman_ / _freed slave_. I think you can use _freedman_ as a good translation.

In historical literature you find this is the usual way to describe such a person, the general formula being: فلان مولى فلان
(The first فلانbeing a freedman / freed slave of the second فلان.). Here are some examples:



عن أيوب بن خالد عن عبد الله بن رافع مولى أم سلمة عن أبى هريرة قال​ 
تاريخ الرسل و الملوك للطبري]​ 
 [١ج 
​ 

قال سمعت ابن أبى خالد عن أبى صالح مولى أم هانئ في قوله تعالى​ 
تاريخ الرسل و الملوك للطبري]​ 
 [١ج : ١٩٨ ص​ 
ثم برز جون مولى أبي ذر الغفاري كان عبداً أسوداً  و قال له الحسين ...​ 
[ مقتل الحسين لإبن طاووس, 63 ص]  ​ 
و قُتل عامر بن مسلم العبدي و مولاه سالم ..... ​ 
[ مصرع الحسين للشيخ عبدالوهاب الكاشي ,35 ص]​ 
و أقبل عابس بن شبيب الشاكري على مولاه شوذب و كان من الرجال المخلصين ....​ 
[  مصرع الحسين للشيخ  عبدالوهاب الكاشي,50 ص]​ All of the above are historically attested relationships, where مولى has the meaning of _freedman_ (freed slave).


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## Huda

Thanks a million Faylasoof for your helpful answer and cooperation, I realy appreciate that.


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## ajami

The master who free his/her slave is the one who gets the wirasah. منتسب إليه بالولاء.
I hope you know the case sayydah Bareera R.A when sayyadah Ayeisha R.A bought Bareera R.A the previuos owners were not going to leave the willa2 of Bareera R.A so the prophet sal-lal laHU ALAYHE wassalam said to Ayesha R.A free her  as the willa2 is for the one who frees.


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## Huda

Thanks a lot ajami.You mean the Prophet (PBUH) told Aisha', may Allah be pleased with her:  ‏ابتاعي فأعتقي فإنما ‏ ‏الولاء ‏ ‏لمن أعتق ثم قام رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏فقال ما بال أناس يشترطون شروطا ليست في كتاب الله من اشترط شرطا ليس في كتاب الله فليس له وإن شرط مائة مرة شرط الله أحق وأوثق

In fact, I'm not sure that ولاء  in my sentence connotes  inheritance.


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## ajami

I dont understand.Do you want either the translation of this
 تابع لفلان أو منتسب إليه بالولاء or the other sentence.
تابع means the one who is under someone in other words an employee/servant,which is very clear by  2أو منتسب إليه بالولا.
The other sentence  mean taaoos bin kaysan was the freed slave of.......


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## Huda

I said مولى means تابع لفلان أو منتسب إليه بالولاء . Both تابع and منتشب إليه بالولاء mean the same. On the other hand, I understand that a freed slave can also be inherited by his master. ابتاعي فاعتقي فانما الولاء لمن اعتق If I make sure that طاوس was a slave I would take your sugession freed slave/man which is the same as Faylasoof's


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## Huda

Faylasoof said:


> For this reason I had a quick look to see what is known about Ta2uus bin Kaysaan and it appears he was a _freedman _– a freed slave apparently of Bu7ayr bin Resaan al-7imyari.


Would you please provide the reference from which you got this piece of information?


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## ajami

These are the links for the Ta-oos bin Kaysan details.

I hope it'll help you.

part 1
part 2
part 3

This is from Tahzib al-Tahzib.


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## Huda

Awesome! Thanks a million ajami.


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## Faylasoof

Huda said:


> Faylasoof said:
> 
> 
> 
> ....
> For this reason I had a quick look to see what is known about Ta2uus bin Kaysaan and it appears he was a _freedman _– a freed slave apparently of Bu7ayr bin Resaan al-7imyari.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Would you please provide the reference from which you got this piece of information?
Click to expand...


Sorry! I missed this! Of course Ajami has already given you one of the references I saw, but just to answer your request, here are two more:

مات الامام طاووس مولى بحير بن ريسام الحميرى بمكة وسالم بن عبد الله بن عمر فصلى عليهما هشام وكان موت طاووس بمكة وموت سالم بالمدينة​ تاريخ الرسل و الملوك للطبري]​  [379ج  5: ص 
​ 

3009- طاوس ابن كيسان اليماني أبو عبدالرحمن الحميري مولاهم الفارسي يقال اسمه ذكوان وطاوس لقب ثقة فقيه فاضل من الثالثة مات سنة ست ومائة وقيل بعد ذلك ع​ [ تقريب التهذيب]

The last one is a little unclear! ​


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## Huda

Thanks a lot Faylasoof. This is also mentioned in my original sentence. This doesn't affirm that طاوس  was a freed slave/man of بحير

​


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## Faylasoof

Huda said:


> Thanks a lot Faylasoof. This is also mentioned in my original sentence. This doesn't affirm that طاوس was a freed slave/man of بحير


 I see your point Huda but my examples in post #9 are unequivocal and the construct by Tabari in post # 18 is the same as by him in post # 9, where additionally I explain that this form denotes this specific relationship. This is how it is usually taken. 

The form in Tahzib al-Tahzib , given by Ajami, and also seen earlier by myself, is the same as well. The only exception is the one in تقريب التهذيب . Now I know we shouldn't ignore it but all the others (esp. the ones in post #9) follow the same, set formula. That is why I say above that here "مولى_ does mean a freedman / freed slave. I think you can use freedman as a good translation_."

The basis of my argument is essentially what I mention in post # 9.


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## Huda

Faylasoof said:


> I see your point Huda but my examples in post #9 are unequivocal and the construct by Tabari in post # 18 is the same as by him in post # 9, where additionally I explain that this form denotes this specific relationship. This is how it is usually taken.


I agree with you, but what makes me confused is that I asked a professor in Arabic about the subject sentence and he didn't mention anything about Taoos being Bohair's freed slave. I will ask him again about that.



> The only exception is the one in تقريب التهذيب . Now I know we shouldn't ignore it but all the others (esp. the ones in post #9) follow the same, set formula. That is why I say above that here "


I don't know why you called the example in تقريب التهذيب an exception.


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## Faylasoof

Huda said:


> I agree with you, but what makes me confused is that I asked a professor in Arabic about the subject sentence and he didn't mention anything about Taoos being Bohair's freed slave. I will ask him again about that.


 How did _he _translate it? I'd love to know. Also, could you show him the other examples I give and see what he then says.


Huda said:


> I don't know why you called the example in تقريبالتهذيب an exception.


I call it exceptional as there is no mention of بحير بن ريسان الحميري , the very person with whom this relationship (مولى ) is under discussion everywhere else.


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## Huda

> How did _he _translate it? I'd love to know.


This Professor knows nothing about translation. I asked him about the meaning of the word in Arabic which I said in post no. 1 


> Also, could you show him the other examples I give and see what he then says


 Ok I will do that. Once I know his reply I will post it.



> I call it exceptional as there is no mention of بحير بن ريسان الحميري , the very person with whom this relationship (مولى ) is under discussion everywhere else.


No, I don't think so. There is a mention which is طاوس ابن كيسان اليماني أبو عبدالرحمن الحميري مولاهم الفارسي
أبو عبد الرحمن was his cognomen, and I believe الحميري is added to his name as a title or surname to indicate this relationship. However, I don't know what's meant by مولاهم الفارسي


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## Faylasoof

Huda said:


> I call it   exceptional as there is no mention of بحير بن ريسان الحميري   , the very person with whom this relationship (مولى   ) is under discussion everywhere else.
> 
> 
> 
> No, I don't think so. There is a mention which is طاوس ابن كيسان اليماني أبو عبدالرحمن الحميري مولاهم الفارسي
> أبو عبد الرحمن was his cognomen, and I believe الحميري is added to his name as a title or surname to indicate this relationship.
Click to expand...

 OK, let me explain! In the above quote from تقريبالتهذيب, no clear mention is made of بحير بن ريسان by name, meaning there could be yet another person being referred to and not necessarily بحير بن ريسان. 

I do realise that أبو عبد الرحمن is indeed the كنية of طاووس بن كيسان اليماني الحميري الجندي, but the term الحميري is a general indication of a tribal association and in no way points to بحير بن ريسان directly because there were other _al-7imyaris_ too! That is why I considered the account in تقريبالتهذيب an exception.


Huda said:


> However, I don't know what's meant by مولاهم الفارسي


 This is the standard from used in _ansaab_ (أنساب) literature and refers to the _mawaalii_ (الموالي). To make any sense, I think you need to read it as:   الحميري مولاهم   الفارسي
This indicates that he was not a real حميري but only by association with the tribe and being _their __maula_ (مولاهم) – _their freedman_ - and being of Persian (الفارسي) origin.

The fact that طاوس بن كيسان was يماني المولد فارسي الأصل، ولد ونشأ باليمن – Yemeni by birth, Persian by origin and grew up in Yemen - is mentioned in many places, for example here.


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## Victor-emmanuel

السلام عليكم
مولى this word evocate "adherent". Adherent imply a freedman but who offer freely his service.

The one (م) linked (و) by a service (لى).


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## Faylasoof

وعليكم السلام

مولى has _many_ meanings as I mention above in post # 4 and the link therein. It is highly context dependent!


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## Victor-emmanuel

Yes I read it. I brought another synonym and show the general semantic ground of the word مولى . And yes, a context can re-direct accuratly the meaning of a word.

One more info to pondere the meaning of مولى, we forget sometime but _leader_, _khalif_, _cheikh _is also a task, a duty, a service, a fidelity.


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## Huda

Hi all
I've asked the professor of Arabic about Taoos ibn Kisan again today. He assured me Taoos was not the freed slave of Bohayr. He told me as I said before that he was منتسب إليه بالولاء- in other words, he was حليف. He told me that I can refer to *Al Zurkali: Al A’alam *or *ibn Khallikan: Wafayat al-A'yan* to make sure myself.
Thanks


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## Faylasoof

Huda said:


> Hi all
> I've asked the professor of Arabic about Taoos ibn Kisan again today. He assured me Taoos was not the freed slave of Bohayr. He told me as I said before that he was منتسب إليه بالولاء- in other words, he was حليف. He told me that I can refer to *Al Zurkali: Al A’alam *or *ibn Khallikan: Wafayat al-A'yan *to make sure myself.
> Thanks


OK! So that is like one of my earlier guesses!


Faylasoof said:


> Well, in that case here are some ways of expressing this realtionship:
> 
> طاووس ابن كيسان  owed allegiance to / was an affiliate of /  was  a friend of / was a client of / was  loyal to بحير بن ريسان الحميري



As I've said before, sometimes it is quite difficult to know exactly how to translate مولى and one needs biographical info.

I shall certainly have a look at the references you mention, esp. وفيات الأعيان لإبن خلكان.


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