# tu / vous - tutoyer / vouvoyer - tutoiement / vouvoiement



## Markus

Of course we all learn in school that *tu* is informal and *vous* is formal. What I am curious about are the more subtle uses of the pronouns. I was hypothesizing about this with a friend, but I have no idea if we are on to anything or not. But it seems to me that while *tu* is informal, it is also more warm and friendly; if you were to switch to *vous* with someone with whom you usually *tutoyer*, would it in a way be a ruder form, as if you are being cold and distant? For example, suppose that a friend of yours does something that really upsets you; could you *vouvoyer* them to let them know that you are not happy with them?

Alternatively, say that you are somewhere that you would normally *vouvoyer* and someone upsets you. For example, you are at a restaurant and you find a fly in your soup, and the waiter refuses to do anything about it; perhaps he accuses you of putting the fly there yourself. Could you *tutoyer* the waiter as a means of purposefully disrespecting them? Or would it reflect more poorly on you?

Any insights would be appreciated, I'm very curious about the subtle uses of the terms! Thanks. 

Markus

*Moderator note:* Multiple threads merged to create this one. This is a general discussion. We also have threads about more specific situations. If you are wondering about _tu/vous_ usage in a particular context, please check here to see if we have discussed it already, and append your question in the corresponding thread. For example, we have discussed:
tu / vous - in forums/online
tu / vous - in school or classroom, between teacher and student
tu / vous - married couples, lovers
tu / vous - au Québec
tu / vous - with medical doctor, dentist, lawyer, etc.
... and many, many more!


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## Cath.S.

Hi Markus,
your first example seems highly unlikely to me, in my experience once you start saying _tu_ to someone you never revert to saying_ vous_. In the situation you describe, a person who is annoyed with a friend will probably change theur tone of voice, avoid eye contact etc.
But it is much easier to go from vous to tu, even with a complete stranger, especially if you're angry.
I'm thinking of conflictual traffic situations, where you'll often hear two strangers yell things like "_non mais t'as vu comment tu conduis _?" "_et toi, pauvre malade_ ! Quand j'pense qu'ils donnent le permis à des tarés pareils !", whereas the same  people, if they were not mad at each other, would stick to a very formal "vous".


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## Auryn

Markus said:
			
		

> But it seems to me that while *tu* is informal, it is also more warm and friendly; if you were to switch to *vous* with someone with whom you usually *tutoyer*, would it in a way be a ruder form, as if you are being cold and distant?



Yes, it's quite a slap in the face actually and they'll wonder what they've done to you. Once you start 'tutoyer' someone there's no going back.



> For example, suppose that a friend of yours does something that really upsets you; could you *vousvoyer* them to let them know that you are not happy with them?



It would be a very old-fashioned and formal way to let them know. This reminds me of the Comtesse de Ségur's novels (published in the 19th century) where aristocratic parents typically 'vouvoient' their children when they're disappointed in them or the children have been naughty (whereas the children 'vouvoient' their parents all the time as a sign of respect). 

I remember reading an interview of Brigitte Bardot (who comes from quite a posh family) in which she told a story about her childhood: one day she and her sister broke a precious vase and as a punishment her parents started to say 'vous' to both children on the spot. They never used 'tu' again. Little Brigitte was absolutely distraught and never forgave them, even as an adult.



> Alternatively, say that you are somewhere that you would normally *vousvoyer* and someone upsets you. For example, you are at a restaurant and you find a fly in your soup, and the waiter refuses to do anything about it; perhaps he accuses you of putting the fly there yourself. Could you *tutoyer* the waiter as a means of purposefully disrespecting them? Or would it reflect more poorly on you?



You'd be breaking a massive taboo and would be seen as someone with no manners. Saying 'tu' to a complete stranger is extremely vulgar.


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## Cath.S.

> Saying 'tu' to a complete stranger is extremely vulgar.


I would say it depends on a lot of factors. But having said that, I hasten to add that when the person who says _tu_ means to offend, there is never any misunderstanding, French people have a sort of sixth sense for such matters.


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## Markus

Auryn said:
			
		

> Saying 'tu' to a complete stranger is extremely vulgar.


 
Perhaps there is a difference between Québec and France in this regard. In Québec I am quite often addressed in the *tu* form (and they also say *salut* to me), especially by younger people in less formal situations (for example, by employees at an inexpensive clothes store).

Thanks for your insights.


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## Auryn

egueule said:
			
		

> I would say it depends on a lot of factors. But having said that, I hasten to add that when the person who says _tu_ means to offend, there is never any misunderstanding, French people have a sort of sixth sense for such matters.



To be honest, I can't think of a situation where a stranger could say 'tu' to me without me being mildly offended, even if they didn't mean to offend... je suis peut-être trop coincée 



			
				Markus said:
			
		

> Perhaps there is a difference between Québec and France in this regard. In Québec I am quite often addressed in the *tu* form (and they also say *salut* to me), especially by younger people in less formal situations (for example, by employees at an inexpensive clothes store).



Good point, teenagers and young adults tend to always use 'tu' in France too (only among themselves, mind you), although I think a French shop assistant would always say 'vous' to a customer, regardless of age (unless the customer is obviously a child).


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## Silvia

Comment passer du vous au tu? How does it work? Is it automatic when someone addresses you with "tu" on the phone? What's the best way to ask that?

Thanks!


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## Agnès E.

This is a pretty delicate question, Silvia. 
If you know this person rather well and feel as if you can be comfortable with saying _tu_, just take the first opportunity to follow him when he's using it.
We generally say something like "Bon, alors on se tutoie ?" "Eh oui !", both laughing or smiling together. 
If you need to make an effort and don't feel natural and comfortable, just give up and stay on _vous_. 

This was only a suggestion, obviously. 

Just to illustrate this: I'm a shy person and I don't feel easy with _tu_. I always start with _vous_, because it makes me feeling easier. Then, when I come to know people better, the _tu_ form comes naturally, without any comment from both sides.


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## Silvia

Agnès E. said:
			
		

> "Bon, alors on se tutoie ?"


Thank you Agnès, but I guess what you suggested wouldn't work for me, if the person is already addressing me with tu. Qu'est-ce qu'on peut dire alors?


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## scandalously in love

I just want to add that, while in Québec, it was pretty obvious and easy to talk to peers with "tu" and more elderly people with "vous".

What I had problems with, were the middle-aged group in between (ie. people 10, 20 years older than me), and often people that I was meeting and visiting just for one day... friends of friends, etc.   I'd often avoid saying you at all, because I didn't want to come across rude, but I also didn't want to come across as stiff and coldly polite if it wasn't necessary...


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## anangelaway

Silvia said:
			
		

> Thank you Agnès, but I guess what you suggested wouldn't work for me, if the person is already addressing me with tu. Qu'est-ce qu'on peut dire alors?


 
Bonjour Silvia!

Exactly as Agnès said. 


			
				Agnès E said:
			
		

> If you know this person rather well and feel as if you can be comfortable with saying _tu_, *just take the first opportunity to follow him when he's using it.*
> If you need to make an effort and don't feel natural and comfortable, *just give up and stay on vous*.


 

If the person is already addressing you with ''tu'', then follow your instinct, and *see how you feel.* 
It really depends on the person itself, if this person is a client for instance, I would suggest you, again as Agnès said to follow him, meaning you can use ''tu''.
The thing is Silvia, that if that particular person is addressing you with ''tu', it must be a reason. In my opinion, at first people who don't eachother at all, or not so well, do not use ''tu'' automatically, by the contrary. Again, there are some exceptions of course. 

_Ex:Non-so-formal situation_
Mr Untel: Bonjour! Silvia XYZ?
Silvia: Oui, elle-même, bonjour, c'est pourquoi?
Mr Untel: Nathan Untel à l'appareil. Nous nous sommes rencontrés sur le salon de XYZ, *te souviens-tu* de moi?  
Silvia: Oui tout à fait, je me souviens de *toi*.  

_Ex. Sort of formal situation_
Mme Untel: Bonjour! Silvia XYZ?
Silvia: Oui, elle-même, bonjour? 
Mme Untel: Nathalie Untel à l'appareil. Mon service logistique vient de me faire parvenir un rapport que *tu viens de lui adresser*, peux-*tu* me rejoindre dans mon bureau dans 1 heure?
Silvia: Oui biensùr, je *vous* retrouve dans 1 heure.  
= This Mme Untel is the Vice-President and feel confident enough to use ''tu'', as you're certainly one in some hundreds under her authority. But, in that case for instance you wouldn't use ''tu'', as you two are not ''equal' (Hiérarchie oblige).

Exception to that last rule: if you and this Vice-president of yours are having a business trip together, and get to know eachother a little bit more over couple of wine glasses, I'm pretty sure she woudn't mind you to say *''tu''*, and will problably even ask you *''on peut se tutoyer maintenant''*.  

Now, if my grandfather is welcoming you with a big kiss on both cheeks, by an 'ha, alors c'est *toi* Silvia!?'', moi c'est Antoine! viens-viens, *tu* bois quoi ma petite? 
Silvia would say, ''je *te* remercie Antoine, un ricard pour moi. (exemple) 

---
I believe that at each single situation, you have to use your instinct (ton of voice, identify the person, business related or not, circumstances, etc...), and adapt it.


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## Tabac

In 1966 I went to an NDEA institute for recent graduates, ready to start teaching French.  One of the French ladies there, in her late 20's, used _vous_ *only* when addressing more than one person.  She liked that remnant from after the French Revolution, when all were supposed to do that.


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## LV4-26

There are some complicated situations. Imagine you're addressed as "tu" by a person who's older than you are (or so you think). If you stick to the "vous", this person might be upset and think that you use "vous" because he/she's older or just _looks_ older. Some people do like being treated unformally because it makes them feel younger.
(I hate being called "monsieur". It's time I get used to it, though )


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## johnL

1) If you address children as "tu," how old does someone have to be before they expect strangers to address them as "vous?" 

2) When you first meet someone, you address them as "vous." If you come to know the person better, at what point do you begin to address them as "tu?" Is there some point where they say, "Oh, come on, you can call me tu"?


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## Amityville

I am sticking my neck out here because as you may have gathered everyone has his own opinion/feeling, and every social situation has its own little niceties. 
As a rough guide I would say use 'vous' to a child after the age of 14/15. Always vouvoyer an adult that you don't know and continue doing so with someone older than you, or where you don't become buddies. 

None of this is hard and fast. If you're not sure wait for them to make the move or ask.'On se tutoie ?' 'J'aimerais mieux tutoyer.' (Notice both of these circumvent the problem, they don't use either pronoun, which is another way but not for débutants).

Now you're going to say what do you do with your friend's sister or your daughter's friend or in a group of people all calling each other 'tu'.


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## Jessila

I've just been through the other topics, and they all have their nuances, so I will answer to john.L's question 

I think Amityville's got a point, and teenagers start to sometimes receive the "vous" around 15, but not all the time, and it really depends on who's addressing them. 
Sometimes it can even _almost _be "offending" lol, I remember the first time a young child stepped on my foot, and his mother asked that he presents "his excuse to the lady" meaning me! I was not even in my twenties, and I suddenly felt like I was looking way too old for my age if people would refer to me as a "lady"! Well the same can be felt with the use of "vous"... Sometimes it can make you feel a lot older than you really are or _feel_ you are 

But for french natives too, deciding whether to use "tu" or "vous" can be tricky. For instance, I just started to give english lessons in a primary school. The very first day I arrived, one of the schoolmaster immediately said "Ca ne te dérange pas si on se tutoie ? Ici, on se tutoie tous." (You don't mind if we say "tu"? Everybody says so around here.)
To be polite, it's better to abide by the rules already set, so I said that I didn't mind, but I find it very hard to say "tu" to them 'cause I don't know them yet, and plus... I'm only 26 and they're all older (even if not much) than me. But with the Headmistress who is also a schoolmistress (and already was 2 years before I was born lol !) and therefore one of my new colleagues, I find myself completely unable to use "tu" with her. So I stick to "vous" and until she personnaly tells me to drop it, I don't think I will change that 

Hope this example help you see some of the subtleties of this peculiar french point ^^


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## johnL

YOW!!!
I think this is the hardest thing I've come across yet! It seems the only way to be sure you're not offending someone is to not use either word.   Seriously, from a cultural standpoint, it seems that something so tricky would have been resolved naturally over time. (Such as, one word would have just dropped out of popular usage, or something.)

Well, thanks very much to everyone for the input.


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## Jessila

You're quite right ^^
When someone asks me to say "tu" and that I don't feal _ready _to (I'm so used to say "vous" to older, unknown and not-very-well-known people...), I try to use mainly sentence constructions in which I don't need to use neither "tu" or "vous" 

But for some people, it's the contrary... My mother for another instance, is a teacher, and she is so used to work with kids and say "tu" all day, that sometimes she has a hard time saying "vous" ^^

Finally, as a last input, I'd add that if you have a more-or-less strong accent (let's say enough for people to guess you're a stranger), people won't get offended nor mad whether you use "tu" or "vous". They will get what you mean anyway, and in regard to you not being a native, they won't take it personal


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## thinkpink

Hi!

I am seeing someone who lives in Paris...long story, and let's not even get into how I can 'see' them when they live that far away. But that is besides the point.

We are fairly intimate, as in our feelings, and was wondering if that makes it okay to us Tu instead of Vous...

When I ask him what he wants, he says toi, which is informal right? And now when I write him, I am not sure what I should be using...

Some opinions would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks


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## Kelly B

If he uses toi with you, you can generally take that as an invitation to respond using the same form.


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## Agnès E.

Kelly is perfectly right!
Feel free to use the same form as he, or you could slightly offense him or appear taking your distances...


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## virtdave

Younger folks in France tend to use the familiar "tu" form very often, even with casual acquaintances.  With older people, or in more formal situations, it's polite either to wait until asked, or to ask ("_on se tutoie?_") before doing so.  As Kelly B suggests, once you have been _tutoyée_, you have been invited to respond in kind, and to use the formal _vous_ might be considered a bit stiff (though surely allowances would be made for your level of command of French).


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## traveler2006

Bonjour,

I would like to ask someone I met in France his preference how I would address him in my email (tu or vous), how would I write it in French. 

Mercie Beaucoup


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## DDT

My suggestion: "On va se tutoyer ou se vouvoyer ?"

DDT


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## firenze

Hi traveler2006,

I geuss it will depend on the context where you have met.
If you are both young or if you have been initiating a friendship while in France then you can use "tu" without asking him about his preferences.

If you are (really) younger than him or if you have had a business related exchange then you have to use "vous".

If you still prefer to ask ... tu préfères que l'on se tutoie ou que l'on se vouvoie?


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## DDT

I agree except for the fact that I was suggesting the use of "on" in order to avoid the use of "tu" and "vous" in the question. Your suggestion "tu préfères que l'on se tutoie ou que l'on se vouvoie?" implies that they're already on first-name terms with each other  

DDT


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## Gil

Ta suggestion était astucieuse.


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## traveler2006

Thank you DDT and Firenze for your responses. We are both in our 30's and we met in France as friends and on a first name basis. He has sent me a short e-mail and had used bisous in closing the e-mail. I have sent him an e-mail using both tu and vous. This was before I have some understanding of the French Language. I just wanted to be polite and ask him. Do you think it is necessary to ask? 

Merci​


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## nopal

traveler2006 said:
			
		

> T We are both in our 30's and we met in France as friends and on a first name basis. He has sent me a short e-mail and *had used* *bisous *in closing the e-mail. and vous. This was before I have some . Do you think it is necessary to ask?  Merci


Hi traveler , Bonjour 
Don't think twice ! after his "Bisous " it's definitively Tu . This is not a formal way , in french to end a mail /or a letter .It's implies a friendly non-formal answer . I would  never say bisous  to a lawyer ...a preacher  .
To my wife/girlfriend , husband /boyfriend and on so on to many friend ....as far they are (a bit) familiar/intimate ... bisous may be welcome . As far as you want  to express the same .
If you want to express a distanciation . Say You /VOUS 
René


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## fetchezlavache

nopal said:
			
		

> Hi traveler , Bonjour
> Don't think twice ! after his "Bisous " it's definitively Tu .



agreed !


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## jdnn

So, how exactly do you know when to use "tu" or "vous" when writing to one? Now, I must qualify this question by saying that I am just learning french, by myself, so if you are going to be rude and try to show how superior you are please, DO NOT respond. Everyone has been extremely nice except for a few. Thank you for your help in advance!!!


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## Nykita

Normally you have to use "vous" when you talk or write somebody. Its more common and elegant, u know what I mean? You'll never hear a French saying "tu" at first time. It's better u use the "tu" when you are in a "close circle". Whatever, when you have a doubt always use "vous", ok??


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## Outsider

In a letter, I would advise you to only use "tu" if you're writing to a close friend, a sibling, a child, or relatives whom you adress informally.


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## timpeac

Yes, "vous" is always going to be the safer option if you're unsure. Although, I think that the French would be aware that foreigners might not make the distinction and I can think back to times where I have very clearly, in retrospect, used the wrong one and no one was offended at the time - or at least they didn't say anything!


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## oldirtybrza

Also, 'vous' is more formal, so to a stranger or especially a client of yours, you would probably choose to refrain from using 'tu'


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## texasweed

"tu" is for persons you know well and potentially are age-related. "Vous" is for ppl you hardly know somewhat, or are in business with...


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## polaire

And for a little more information:

http://french.about.com/od/grammar/ss/subjectpronouns_3.htm


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## emma42

Hello samuel.  French is not the only language with this distinction.  And English used to have the same distinction (here we come to the "thees and thous etc).  I remember using "Tu" to the French assistante at school and I immediately began to apologise profusely, thinking I had been really really rude.  But she said it was ok!  Did you know there is a special verb for calling someone tu?  It's "Tutoyer".  Sorry if I am telling you things you already know, but I love that verb.


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## krissycokl

The way I think of it is as you are actually respecting someone, giving them the same 'honorific' as if they were multiple people. By calling someone vous, in my mind, literally makes them worth the same as two people! Like, they are worth the extra syllables in verb conjugations and such. I don't know, that's how I rationalized it to myself, anyways


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## emma42

That is interesting.  But by the same logic, it means that if you call someone "tu" you are not according them as much respect as you could. ?


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## polaire

SJB,

This is not a trivial issue (I'm not saying you thought it was, but just to underscore it).

I read somewhere that at one point legislation was being being considered that would require French police officers to use "vous" when making arrests. Their habit of using "tu" with suspects was considered insulting.

With the exception of a child or a dog, I personally would never use "tu" with someone I didn't know very well unless they used "tu" with me first.

"On se tutoie"?  I think that's the expression to ask for permission to use "tu."

Personally, I like the distinction between "tu" and and "vous."  In America, everyone's your "friend" within 30 seconds.    It's so phony.   But of course you're supposed to know it's phony.     Oh, it's ridiculous.  But the worst is when customer service reps [representatives] address you by your first name when you've contacted them about some product that's not up to snuff. [not up to par/ not working the way it should/of an inferior standard] 

Totally inappropriate and patronizing.

But let me get down from the soapbox.


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## xymox

emma42 said:
			
		

> That is interesting. But by the same logic, it means that if you call someone "tu" you are not according them as much respect as you could. ?


 
I would have to disagree with that. There are a number of things to take into account such as culture, education and upbringing. 

Some people say "vous" and "Madame/Monsieur", and others use "vous" on a first-name basis. It's all very complex.

Some people used to say "vous" to their parents (2 or 3 generations ago)whereas that may still be used in certain countries/families today.


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## Agnès E.

polaire said:
			
		

> I read somewhere that at one point legislation was being being considered that would require French police officers to use "vous" when making arrests. Their habit of using "tu" with suspects was considered insulting.
> 
> *With the exception of a child or a dog, I personally would never use "tu" with someone I didn't know very well unless they used "tu" with me first.*
> 
> "On se tutoie"? I think that's the expression to ask for permission to use "tu."


 
A very good summary of the whole thing, indeed!


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## timpeac

But if you stick to that - how does anyone ever move from "vous" to "tu"? Neither would ever be the first to ask!


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## anglaphone

you say one uses 'tu' when speaking to someone age-related, and vous when speaking to a stranger.

What if you've just met somebody of similar age? like socially.


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## timboleicester

More and more young people will start off with "tu" from the get go. It's always good to wait for the other person to start saying "tu" though and then you know you're in.


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## emma42

Ooh, I have been using "tu" quite a lot with forer@s even those I don't know very well. No one has complained so far - I expect they know it is difficult for "un rosbif" sometimes.

[…]


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## KaRiNe_Fr

In my firm everybody is saying "tu". A lot are not "friends".
And on Internet, I always say "tu". I just think it's easier, especially for foreigners, to read me when I say "tu" instead of "vous". I respect them all.
Just my two euros.


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## geve

timpeac said:
			
		

> But if you stick to that - how does anyone ever move from "vous" to "tu"? Neither would ever be the first to ask!


Eventually one of them will ask! I might, if it's someone about my age or younger. I'll wait for the other person to ask if (s)he's older or higher in the hierarchy.



			
				emma42 said:
			
		

> Ooh, I have been using "tu" quite a lot with forer@s even those I don't know very well. No one has complained so far - I expect they know it is difficult for "un rosbif" sometimes.


I view it differently on this forum: I don't know if it's because of the medium (internet communications), or the multilingual aspect, but using the "tu" form seems more natural to me here. Maybe because when I type "you" in English, I mean it as a "tu"...  

This page lists the languages where there's a T-V distinction.


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## balaam

grrr ! 

my five anecdotal explanation get lost.

in short, "tu" and "vous" are complivated to us because of the meddling of convivial circonstances and subordination circonstances. teacher-students and coworkers being promoted can bcome touchy matters.


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## timboleicester

We were at the lunch table one time all colleagues together when the "proviseur" came in. One of our number addressed him with "tu". We all felt afterwards that this was just to tell us just on how good terms she was with him and was kind of rubbing our noses in it. It was only afterwards we discovered she was sleeping with him.


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## LV4-26

_ Et ne m'en veux pas si je te tutoie
* Je dis tu à tous ceux que j'aime*
 Même si je ne les ai vus qu'une seule fois
 Je dis tu à tous ceux qui s'aiment
 Même si je ne les connais pas

_Jacques Prévert_
_


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## KittyCatty

Hi there!
When I was in France I asked who I should say vous to and who I should say tu to, and my partner's cousin started to explain - people similar to me in age should be tu, older, vous - but then my partner's mum came and said 'non, tu pour tout le monde'
Is this normal for families? Or do you think it was just to simplify for a poor little confused exchange student?!


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## timboleicester

I think she just wanted you to feel at home. As I said up there somewhere, it's always best to adopt the register of the person you are talking to ( when you are a rosbif that is ) and wait for them to either tell you to call them TU or it dawns on you. I used to show displeasure with a former lover by switching back to VOUS by god they knew they were in trouble then.


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## emma42

Yes, it sounds like she wanted to make you feel at home, kittycatty.  As the matriarch, presumably she would have the right to decide on the register in her home.  Being older, she was giving you permission to tutoyer her.  Which is nice.


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## balaam

agreed.
one can really boggle the mind with this kind of thing.

I said "tu" to my (ex) parents-in-law but my ex never said "tu" to my parents.

Most of my students wouldn't consider giving me the "tu" treatment. and while I was teaching in a hight school, a delegation of my class asked me to stop using the "vous" with them (because of the implyed respect that "they don't deserve" !!!) but was angry of the other "profs" didn't do the same. go figure...


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## emma42

Les teenagers, hein?  I would probably consider using "vous" with a teenage class, in the hope that treating them like adults would help with discipline and attitude in class.  But this is from the perspective of one who teaches in elementary school, so may be idealistic/a load of old cobblers!*

*a load of rubbish.


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## balaam

on the other hand, my students of evening courses are for most part legal aliens with low verbal frenck skills. they heard "tu" with each and every clerc that despite them. using the "vous" is a mark of respect that nearly make them weep from joy (is it correct formulation ?).
by the same way, I say "vous" to my director who was my coworker last year WHEN there is students around, but reverte to "tu" when we are on our own. but I don't do any effort with the other school admin : she say "tu" to every students (some of them older and smarter then her) so I give her the money back, so to speak.

many thanks , emma.


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## Gil

Agnès E. said:
			
		

> A very good summary of the whole thing, indeed!


Je serais moins catégorique.
Vouvoyer des adolescent(e)s ou des jeunes personnes qui ont 40 ans de moins que moi ne me semble pas une bonne idée : je me sentirais ridicule.
Et ce ne sont ni des enfants ni des chiens.


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## balaam

IMHO avec 40 ans de difference et un statut pré-adulte, on peut les considerer comme des enfants.


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## emma42

Peut-être j'ai mal compris, balaam. J'ai entendu que tu (!!?) vouvoies les élèves et les élèves ne l'aime pas parce que c'est trop formal, et qu'elles préfèreraient que tu leur tutoies. Est-ce que je dois m'embrouiller les pinceaux?


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## balaam

my apologises. i didn't undertand you talked about my previous anecdot.

you get the idea. tu ne t'emmèles pas les pinceaux. But it's not a question of formalism. it's a question of identity. they don't want to be considered childs but aren't ready for plain adult status.

education in belgium is a very complex matter. two civil wars nearly burst because of change in education laws.

suffise to say that a Laic school for filthy-rich requise the mutual "tu" for both teachers and students, while a catholic college for filthy-rich would kick off a student who dare to. but their teacher consider under their dignity to talk to them as a child.


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## emma42

"They don't want to be considered as children but aren't ready for adult status" - yes, I totally agree.  They are, in fact, in a half-way house (well, some of them).  But I can imagine them really respecting and liking and listening to a teacher who would accord them the respect of "vous".  It's like saying to them "Look, I am going to respect you and treat you like adults, so please behave like adults".  

I am not a native speaker, nor do I know about the Belgian education system, so I may be really really wrong here with the "tu" and "vous" question.


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## Cath.S.

Gil said:
			
		

> Je serais moins catégorique.
> Vouvoyer des adolescent(e)s ou des jeunes personnes qui ont 40 ans de moins que moi ne me semble pas une bonne idée : je me sentirais ridicule.
> Et ce ne sont ni des enfants ni des chiens.


Je partage ce point de vue - et cette pratique.
J'ai depuis quelques mois un nouveau jeune voisin de 20 ans et je l'ai tutoyé dès l'abord ; cela m'a semblé tout naturel et à lui aussi puisque j'ai l'âge d'être sa mère (pas encore sa grand-mère ). Je le respecte tout à fait, et je ne le traite pas comme je traite les enfants - c'est-à-dire que je ne fais aucun effort pour simplifier mon discours lorsque je lui parle. Personnellement j'emploie souvent ce type de référence familiale : si je me sens comme la grand-mère, la mère ou la grande soeur, je tutoie. Mais réellement cela dépend de chaque cas individuel, c'est comme en traduction : toute recherche d'une solution automatique est fatalement vouée à l'échec.


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## geve

egueule said:
			
		

> Mais réellement cela dépend de chaque cas individuel, c'est comme en traduction : toute recherche d'une solution automatique est fatalement vouée à l'échec.


C'est très vrai, ça !
Tutoyer quelqu'un dans cette situation, ça peut aussi être une façon de le reconnaître comme son égal, au lieu de créer une distance respectueuse ou "hiérarchique" en employant le "vous"...
Bien sûr, dans d'autres situations, ça pourrait être pris comme de la condescendance... Oui, vraiment, il n'y a pas de règle unique.


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## timpeac

I've mentioned this elsewhere - but an interesting example I came across was that at the school I was working in all the teachers tutoyed each other but they vouvoyed the cleaning staff - which always seemed to me rather condescending.


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## geve

timpeac said:
			
		

> I'm mentioned this elsewhere - but an interesting example I came across was that at the school I was working in all the teachers tutoyed each other but they vouvoyed the cleaning staff - which always seemed to me rather condescending.


It's another proof that there's not one possible interpretation of the choice of "tu" or "vous"...
In my 'extended' company (= 1.000 workers) the common practice is to tutoyer everyone even when you talk to them for the first time (expect maybe for top executives), so I try to do that even if I sometimes find it hard to tutoyer someone I don't know over the phone.

Yet I use "vous" with the cleaning staff - that is a mark of respect for me: I don't know them very much, and they don't necessarily know that using the "tu" form is seen as "cool" in my field of activity  
However I use "tu" with the people working in the cafeteria, or from the _services généraux_ (general services??), because I talk to them a lot more often and they're more immersed in the "tu atmosphere" of the offices. 

Another way to put it: I wouldn't say "salut" to the cleaning staff, I would find it too casual for the "relationship" we have.


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## uman

Hi all,

I understand when to use tu and when to use vous, but when I'm speaking French and not thinking about it, often "tu" will come out when I mean to say "vous". I'm going to be living in France for nine months and I'm sure that during that time I'll inadvertantly call somebody "tu" who I should be calling "vous". So, I want to ask you, how bad is it? Is it a horrendously grave insult to disrespectfully call someone "tu", or is it not so bad? Or maybe somewhere in between? Thanks for your time.

Brennan Vincent


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## Starcreator

I had the same problem when I started learning French. "Tu" would pop out randomly, and many francophones appeared disturbed by my sudden change. The reason, I guess, was that I referred to both my classmates and teachers with "tu" and knew most expressions/conjugations better with "tu". With time (not a long time, mind you - after I recognized this problem it only took a couple weeks to phase out of it), I managed to observe the tu/vous difference. I thought, afterward, "Shouldn't the francophones realize that I'm a new learner and unaware of the subtleties of the language?", but apparently it was still rather disturbing to them to "les tutoyer" without knowing them very well.

I guess it's just something that comes with time.


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## Matt_11

My french teacher told me that as much as the will not be happy with you calling them by the Tu form, they will immediatley relize why, you are  obviously not a french native and they will know that by your accent, so they should allow it too pass by with out too much conflict, you will want to try not too do it, just to be sure you don't hurt someone's feelings, but with a non-frncaphone accent im sure they won't be too ,mad.  Its like being a foriegner anywhere else, they know your foriegn, and they will understand.

   On that topic, what is th reason for it being offensive, it means the same thing, its just one is more formal, for an accuantince, who came up with such a dumb rule for the language? lol


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## uman

Well there are silly rules in every natural language. French is definitely no exception! We sort of have the same thing in English-speaking cultures with first name vs. last name. It's not exactely equal to tutoyement/vouvoyement but it's the same idea. A student in Joe Smith's class would NEVER just say "Joe", for example, but always "Mr. Smith".


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## uman

OK, the consensus seems to be that they'll understand I'm a foreigner and so won't take grave offense. I've got another, related question. How much offense would it cause if one native French speaker called another native French speaker "tu" inappropriately?


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## Starcreator

No, this isn't the consensus . You've heard two opinions regarding the situation - one of which is someone's teacher's opinion, and another of which is an actual anecdote. I'd like to believe that most francophones would hear your accent and immediately realize that you didn't mean to say "tu", this isn't the case many times. I'd sometimes see the "cringe" expression on someone's face after being called by "tu", if I did it inappropriately, and would normally apologize, explaining that it was an accident. We in English sometimes do the same thing - for instance, we sometimes are surprised when foreigners use profanity without being familiar with its magnitude.

That said, hopefully after two or three months in France, this tendency to interchange tu and vous will disappear. And in the interim, hopefully you'll encounter speakers who will recognize the accent and be sympathetic, rather than offended, when the problem occurs.

As for your other question, normally a francophone would know what he or she was doing. If a francophone used tu inappropriately, it would often be specifically to convey disrespect, colloquialism or contempt.


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## DDT

uman said:
			
		

> OK, the consensus seems to be that they'll understand I'm a foreigner and so won't take grave offense.


I agree with starcreator, this isn't the consensus. I suggest you take care of the difference between "tu" and "vous" when speaking French in spite of the fact you're a foreigner  



			
				uman said:
			
		

> I've got another, related question. How much offense would it cause if one native French speaker called another native French speaker "tu" inappropriately?



It depends, basically it would be considered rather impolite. But if you're being introduced to friends by a friend you can "tutoyer"...please also remember not to shake the hand of a girl when being introduced, just give her a kiss on both cheeks (to shake her hand would look sort of odd), but if you're introduced to a girl/woman for professional reasons you are supposed to shake her hand, of course

DDT


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## CathyMF

I know this must be a perennial but can anyone help?

We have just moved to the Languedoc from Normandy.  _Tu_ seems to be used more readily here and I want to get it right - to be polite while at the same time not seeming too stiff and 'British':  

Last night we were invited to a meal on Tuesday by a neighbour (he often has a barbecue out in the street with a pal or two);  we don't know his name;  he is, I would guess, about 35;  very cool and laid-back, the strong silent type, streetwise, rides a motorbike;  apart from saying friendly hallo's we haven't had a conversation with him.  We are both round about 50, ageing hippies, I guess you could say.  

When we go for the barbecue, should we call him _tu_ or _vous_? 

Is it acceptable to ask which we should use, or does that just look like angling to use _tu_?  (I said _'on se tutoie_?' once to a woman I knew quite well and whose house I had visited in Burgundy, and she replied '_comme_ _*vous* voulez'_, so I am nervous about getting that wrong.)

Also (and not incidentally), would 'est-ce que je peux ammener quelque chose à grignoter?' be correct for 'Can I bring some nibbles?'  

Merci d'avance


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## The_Traveling_Man

Hello Cathy,

"Tu" is when you know the person (like a close friend or good friend)

"Vous", is the polite for for "tu". Usually used when you don't know the person you are talking with or you barely know that person.

Hope this help


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## CathyMF

Thanks for the reply - but isn't there an element of the _type_ of person and context involved too?


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## la reine victoria

Hi Cathy,


In this situation I would use "vous" until you become better acquainted.  Follow the French example - once you are addressed as "tu" then you may safely respond likewise.

I wouldn't ask for permission to take along nibbles, just take them along as a surprise gift with, perhaps, a bottle of wine.

This will be greatly appreciated.


Have fun!  




LRV


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## The_Traveling_Man

CathyMF said:


> Thanks for the reply - but isn't there an element of the _type_ of person and context involved too?


Indeed. If you talk with your boss or the prime minister, I suggest strongly that you use "vous". "Vous" is a reverence, honoring,... in that case you show respect.


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## Setwale_Charm

For myself, I always use "vous" (Sie, Ud, Lei), but I find this appears to be outdated nowadays. everybody calls each other 'tu'


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## Herr Fixxxer

Just wait for him to use "tu", then you know you can


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## la reine victoria

CathyMF said:


> Thanks for the reply - but isn't there an element of the _type_ of person and context involved too?


 


Not really. No matter what the type of person, nor the context, you should use "vous" until you become close friends.

I've known a particular French family for many years. I can say "tu" to their grown up sons, who now run the family hotel business, but because I was originally a guest at the hotel when the parents were running it, we still address each other as "vous".

Not so long ago, the father ran me to the railway station. As I was about to leave him he opened his arms wide and said, "Vous permettez?" Then followed the most sexy kiss on the lips I have ever received from someone whom I thought was "just a friend". Ooh la la - it was lovely!

I'm hoping for free accommodation next time I stay with them!  





LRV


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## CathyMF

Setwale_Charm said:


> For myself, I always use "vous" (Sie, Ud, Lei), but I find this appears to be outdated nowadays. everybody calls each other 'tu'


 
Yes, you see this is what I find difficult.  The actual rules, as such, aren't hard to take in - and actually I don't mind which I call people (or them me) as long as it's polite - but I don't want to look old-fashioned and/or stuck up.  (I'd say the nearest equivalent in English is the increasing tendency to call everyone by their first names;  the American writer Tom Wolfe refers to a girl in her late teens as 'a member of the first generation of Americans to have only one name').


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## ChiMike

As Victoria said so wisely:
"once you are addressed as "tu" then you may safely respond likewise."

And always remember that French is set up so that you can get through the introductions and quite well into things without having to use either one:
Bonsoir.
Enchantée (you can easily omit: de faire votre connaissance in these circumstances - it's not a box at the opera!)
Comment ça va? (avoids: Comment allez-vous?)
Merci beaucoup (or: bien) (always avoids: Thank YOU)
etc.
Then there is the use of "on"
Qu'est-ce qu'on va manger?

and the omission of the pronoun:
J'ai apporté quelques petites amuse-gueules. 

If you were in rural Québec, it would take about 5 minutes for people to start addressing you as "tu" in these circumstances - but you must still wait for them to do it.


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## CathyMF

Herr Fixxxer said:


> Just wait for him to use "tu", then you know you can


 
That's useful, but wouldn't he likewise take his lead from me?  Should I avoid second person singular and plural until he has used one?!!  Or should I perhaps stay at home and eat my nibbles and drink my wine alone?!!


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## Herr Fixxxer

CathyMF said:


> That's useful, but wouldn't he likewise take his lead from me? Should I avoid second person singular and plural until he has used one?!! Or should I perhaps stay at home and eat my nibbles and drink my wine alone?!!


 
Just don't worry about that, it often comes naturally 
Another way to come to saying "tu" (we call that "tutoyer qqn", as opposed to "vouvoyer qqn") is by simply asking the permission-  if you feel confortable. Unless in a very strict professionnal situation, nobody will refuse to use the _cool_ "tu" instead of the boring and annoying "vous"


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## Monsieur Hoole

There's no easy answer, but I generally use tu if I'd address the person by his or her first name, and vous if I'd say Mr. Ms.  etc.  Of course, it's also a matter of personal taste - some French speakers very rarely use tu, except with very close friends, and some, particularly in Quebec, use tu most of the time.  Of course, if it's plural, you'd always use vous.

Hope I helped,

M.H.


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## Jim Profit

Really sensitive point here. 

Je finis toujours par m'arracher les cheveux quand j'essaie d'expliquer le vouvoiement à mes potes anglophones.


If you want to be extremely polite, use "vous" on everyone.

The only problem with that option is that you will sound either corny or distant. Generally, wait for the person in front of you to spontaneously use "vous" ou "tu" and then mirror his speech.

Don't believe the "bons amis" <<_tale>>_. It's a matter of behaviour. For instance, anyone who addresses me as "tu" gets some "tu" in response, no matter how old he is, or how little I know him.

Those aren't official rules, just some hints off the top of my head:


If I need to adress the person first:
People that are at least the age of my parents or grandparents--->"vous"
People from my generation------>tu
People I want to stay distant with (example, 40-something coyote ugly secretary at my office)----->vous
My music teacher, karate master or anyone with whom I share a "pupil/master" relationship----->vous
My boss at the office-------->"tu". BUT, that's only because he allowed me to, the first time we met. When I first gave him some "vous" he immediately urged me by giving me the usual "Tu peux me tutoyer/On peut se tutoyer/On peut se dire tu". This is the signal you can use "tu" with people.

Are you okay with the plural "vous"? It's mandatory when addressing a group of people (as in "you all") and has little to do with politeness.


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## Fred_C

Mon résumé est celui-ci :

*Si vous êtes un adulte*, 
Dites tu à tout le monde sauf aux inconnus ou aux gens que vous connaissez très peu. (ça fait beaucoup de monde à qui dire vous)
Mais dites toujours tu à des enfants (moins de 15 ans à peu près) même si ce sont des étrangers, et aux animaux.
Si vous vous rendez compte que vous aller partager un tout petit peu d'intimité avec quelqu'un, (si un étranger cesse d'être un étranger), demandez-lui simplement la permission de le tutoyer, il est rare que cela soit refusé.

*Si vous êtes un étudiant*, dites toujours tu à un autre étudiant, même si c'est un parfait étranger. dites vous à vos professeurs, même si vous les voyez tous les jours. (Il est interdit de demander à un professeur la permission de le tutoyer)


*Si vous êtes un enfant*, dites vous à vos professeurs, dites vous aux parents de vos camarades, même si vous les connaissez bien. (Il est interdit aux enfants de demander la permission de tutoyer un adulte)

Je dirais que ce sont les règles fondamentales.
Mais il arrive des comportements bizarre spar analogie avec l'une de ces situation. Par exemple il arrive qu'un adulte vouvoie les parents d'un ami d'enfance qu'il connaît pourtant très bien, et que ces parents le tutoient. Cette situation était normale quand les deux amis étaient enfants, et elle se poursuit à l'âge adulte.

La situation sur internet où beaucoup de gens tutoient tout le monde est je pense, une analogie au monde estudiantin.
Toutefois, si vous voulez poster un article dans un forum sérieux, je vous le déconseille.

Sur internet, il est courant qu'on regarde l'âge de son interlocuteur quand cette information est disponible pour savoir s'il s'agit d'un enfant, et pour le tutoyer.


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## Old Novice

"Par exemple il arrive qu'un adulte vouvoie les parents d'un ami d'enfance qu'il connaît pourtant très bien, et que ces parents le tutoient. Cette situation était normale quand les deux amis étaient enfants, et elle se poursuit à l'âge adulte."

Merci, Fred_C. Aux Etats-Unis, les adultes qui sont les amis d'enfance de mes enfants m'appellent encore "Mister ___." C'est le même phénomène, je crois.


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## Fred_C

Old Novice said:


> "Par exemple il arrive qu'un adulte vouvoie les parents d'un ami d'enfance qu'il connaît pourtant très bien, et que ces parents le tutoient. Cette situation était normale quand les deux amis étaient enfants, et elle se poursuit à l'âge adulte."
> 
> Merci, Fred_C. Aux Etats-Unis, les adultes qui sont les amis d'enfance de mes enfants m'appelle encore "Mister ___." C'est le même phénomène, je crois.


 

Très certainement.
Ça me rappelle que j'ai oublié une règle absolue au sujet du tutoiement (La seule règle absolue à ce sujet) : L'usage de Monsieur, Madame ou Mademoiselle (suivi ou non du nom de famille) est absolument exclu avec les personnes que l'on tutoie.
Alors qu'il est possible d'appeler les gens par leur prénom et de les vouvoyer. (Mais ça fait un peu "film américain doublé", je trouve...)


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## Fred_C

Au sujet du vouvoiement : 
Ne faites pas confiance à ce que vous entendez dans les films, ou ce que vous lisez dans les livres.
Les œuvres de fictions sont toujours plus intéressantes quand les rapports entre les personnages sont un peu spéciaux. Beaucoup de spectateurs ne s'en rendent pas compte, mais dans bien des films, les situations de vouvoiement/tutoiement sont assez irréalistes, car cela ajoute à la dimension du rapport entre les personnages.

Autre chose, si ça vous intéresse : 
La situation au sujet du vouvoiement/tutoiement est quasiment identique en allemand, elle est sensiblement identique en italien, et elle est assez similaire en espagnol d'espagne. Par contre, quand je suis allé en Colombie (amérique du Sud), j'avoue que je n'ai rien compris à leur manière de traiter le vouvoiement/tutoiement. J'ai l'impression qu'en tant qu'étranger, j'avais un statut spécial ! (J'étais obligé de tutoyer certaines personnes de mon âge que des gens plus intimes que moi et du même âge vouvoyaient !!!)


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## LeGuch

Fred_C said:


> Mais il arrive des comportements bizarre spar analogie avec l'une de ces situation. Par exemple il arrive qu'un adulte vouvoie les parents d'un ami d'enfance qu'il connaît pourtant très bien, et que ces parents le tutoient. Cette situation était normale quand les deux amis étaient enfants, et elle se poursuit à l'âge adulte.



This happens in English as well, with the vouvoiement replaced with addressing adults using "Mr. / Mrs." as opposed to their first name. I still call the parents of my childhood friends Mr. and Mrs. because that's what I did back then. 

Children do not have the right to ask permission to use an adult's first name, although an adult may give a child permission if he/she chooses. Where I grew up, it was considered impolite for a child to use an adult's first name without permission.

So you see, depending on where and how you are raised, this can serve as a fairly accurate analogy for the whole tu vs. vous question, at least the part where children and adults are concerned.


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## Bastoune

Monsieur Hoole said:


> There's no easy answer, but I generally use tu if I'd address the person by his or her first name, and vous if I'd say Mr. Ms. etc. Of course, it's also a matter of personal taste - some French speakers very rarely use tu, except with very close friends, and some, particularly in Quebec, use tu most of the time. Of course, if it's plural, you'd always use vous.
> 
> Hope I helped,
> 
> M.H.


 
Actually, I say, always err on the side of “vousvoyer” everyone.  Use “vous” if you’re not sure.

And I am replying in particular to your post, M. Hoole, because you mentioned how using “tu” is more frequent in Québec but I’m inclined to agree AND disagree.  Many of us of even still my generation (I was born in 1973), had to use “vous” with grandparents and older relatives.  My parents used “vous” with their parents and so on back.  Of course, it will all depend on the family, but this maybe explains why in general I am very formal and polite in my dealings with others I first meet and sometimes shocked when a stranger uses “tu” with me.


----------



## alisonp

I actually did a course at uni on this very subject: referred to "pronouns of power and solidarity" I think it was (but it *was* 20-odd years ago, so may be out of date by now).  I seem to remember the "power" bit being e.g. "vous"/"tu" between boss and employee - relative positions in the hierarchy, and the "solidarity" bit being the "we're all in this together" approach - e.g. between colleagues, students, and yes, probably now, Internet users on forums.  (Would I address a seller on eBay as "tu"?  Probably not, I think).  Then of course there's the relative formality or lack of in the situation, plus whether the interaction is male-female.  I seem to remember that at one time, for unmarried and unrelated male-female adults who hadn't known each other for donkeys' years to call each other "tu" was a fairly good indication that they'd slept together, but I don't suppose that's the case nowadays!  And I also remember being told at the time that France was less formal and Quebec more so, and that in some Franco-Canadian families the children would still call their parents "vous".

It's a fascinating subject ...


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## scandalously in love

Hi all - I made a little boo boo, and I'm wondering how to fix it.

I teach french in an anglophone school.  But I am lucky enough to have a french-speaking parent to talk to, every once in a while!  She's very nice - but so far we've been "vousvoying" each other - which is understandable, giving the setting.  

I am used to using vous on elderly people, but not on younger people, and I tutoyed her twice in one conversation.  She is so nice, and didn't make any acknowledgement of my slip-up, but continued to vouvoye me.  

I'm mad at myself because I hate appearing "anglophone" - I don't want to be making mistakes like that!  

Do I go back to vousvoying her now?  (I have such a hard time remembering, because its so unnatural to me, and I know I will slip up again.)  I feel like if I cross the line between tu/vous, it will seem silly/embarrassing to change back. 
Do you think we will continue to vousvoye each other?  Could the teacher-parent relationship ever cross into tutoyage?  

Thanks for the insights which I know will come!


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## Franglais1969

When I was at school, the teacher would "tutoyer" us, but we had to "vouvoyer" the teacher.

It could well be different in Canada, or even in today's schools anywhere. A lot seems to have changed these past 20 years. LOL


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## scandalously in love

Thats true enough Franglais (although I know more and more profs who scrap the whole vouvoyer thing altogether!)

But I'm talking parent-to-teacher, not student-to-teacher.... so, maybe its a little different...??


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## Franglais1969

Well, my mother is French, as she always encouraged that we both "tutoyer."

I notice from reading Molière that they used to "vouvoyer" in those days.  I really don't know what the current stance is though. :/


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## elioush

As usual in France, teacher-parent relationship has to be "vousvoyée".
 Now if you have some hidden intention.. but it's none of my business lol 
 Maybe you can simply ask if that's embarrasing for her to be "tutoyée" because you are not very really used to "vousvoiement"

However to my mind, you should keep on employing "vousvoiement", it will help you because it's more difficult to use and it's the same conjugation for "vous" au pluriel.


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## scandalously in love

Thanks Elioush!

As for your "hidden intention" theory - i'm a girl  so nope... !

but I will stick to your suggestion - and practice my vousvoiement - i evidently need practice on it, and here's my chance!


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## Outsider

That would be my guess as well. Use _vous_ with parents, unless (maybe) if you and the parent are both relatively young, and of a similar age.


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## Franglais1969

My mum was young when she had me (17), so that is probably why my case isn't the norm.  Of course I always addressed all other adults as "vous"


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## Cath.S.

Saut SIL,
j'ai réfléchi à ta question et il n'y a pas de recette miracle universelle.

Voici mon conseil : la prochaine fois que tu la vois, et qu'elle a un peu de temps, dis-lui quelque chose du genre :
« Je te tutoies parce que je te trouves sympathique, mais si cela te gêne, je ne le ferai plus, qu'en penses-tu ? ».

Je suis certaine que, par ses réactions, verbales et non-verbales, elle t'indiquera la voie à suivre.


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## Qcumber

When two French persons are getting close enough to switch to <tu>, one will say: "On se tutoie?" [õs tü 'twa:] 
The other generally answers: "D'accord." [da 'kor]


----------



## Trina

You could start off by calling her "tu" then quickly correct it to "vous" and apologising for the slip, explaining to her  that you are not used to it. This will cover all past and future slip-ups and put the ball in her court on whether you go on with "vous" or "tu".


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## vittel

scandalously in love said:


> She is so nice, and didn't make any acknowledgement of my slip-up, but continued to vouvoye me.



My guess would be that if she didn't take the opportunity to tutoyer you in return, when you said "tu" to her, it's because she doesn't want it.
Because when it happens to me (sometimes w/ people of my age, it's hard to control), people who don't mind switch to "tu" with me in the next sentence. People who do mind keep _vovoyer_ to show they want to keep a certain distance. But it's a matter of perception... 
Or maybe she didn't dare, but it'd be strange because she should've known it was ok since you started to tutoyer her. 

I'd keep it simple: ask her.


----------



## scandalously in love

thanks guys for the advice!  

you're all right in that I should probably ask her - problem is - its kinda an intimidating question to me!  It's like asking "So do you consider me more than an aquaintance or not?"  

I'll work up the nerve, or just switch back to vousvoyement...

merci encore!


----------



## doodlebugger

Qcumber said:


> When two French persons are getting close enough to switch to <tu>, one will say: "On se tutoie?" [õs tü 'twa:]
> The other generally answers: "D'accord." [da 'kor]


 
The person who ask is generally the oldest or the most senior of the two.
SIL, if you are older than this person and since you have the position of "authority", you should be the one "popping the question".


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## Gez

> I'm mad at myself because I hate appearing "anglophone" - I don't want to be making mistakes like that!



Well, don't beg mad. Admit nthat youi do make mistakeps, and so asking will be easier. 

Keeping the courtesy third person is also a possibility. In a way, that's what the English language did altogether, ever since "thou" disappeared from everyday usage.


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## Icetrance

Auryn said:


> It would be a very old-fashioned and formal way to let them know. This reminds me of the Comtesse de Ségur's novels (published in the 19th century) where aristocratic parents typically 'vouvoient' their children when they're disappointed in them or the children have been naughty (whereas the children 'vouvoient' their parents all the time as a sign of respect).
> 
> I remember reading an interview of Brigitte Bardot (who comes from quite a posh family) in which she told a story about her childhood: one day she and her sister broke a precious vase and as a punishment her parents started to say 'vous' to both children on the spot. They never used 'tu' again. Little Brigitte was absolutely distraught and never forgave them, even as an adult.


Why would anyone  "vouvoit" his children?

À mon sens, ça fait très très drôle et tout à fait illogique.


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## Ploupinet

Markus said:


> Perhaps there is a difference between Québec and France in this regard. In Québec I am quite often addressed in the *tu* form (and they also say *salut* to me), especially by younger people in less formal situations (for example, by employees at an inexpensive clothes store).
> 
> Thanks for your insights.


You're right, in Quebec people say "tu" very often, it's not the case in France! (and it's the same for "salut" )


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## DearPrudence

Auryn said:


> To be honest, I can't think of a situation where a stranger could say 'tu' to me without me being mildly offended, even if they didn't mean to offend... je suis peut-être trop coincée


The same for me. I went to the hairdresser's and the 16-year-old apprentice said "tu" to me. I know that I looked young but I was rather angry I must say.



Icetrance said:


> Why would anyone "vouvoie" his children?
> 
> À mon sens, ça fait très très drôle et tout à fait illogique.


 


> I remember reading an interview of Brigitte Bardot (who comes from quite a posh family) in which she told a story about her childhood: one day she and her sister broke a precious vase and as a punishment her parents started to say 'vous' to both children on the spot. They never used 'tu' again. Little Brigitte was absolutely distraught and never forgave them, even as an adult.


As Auryn said, it is not common at all to say that. But I can understand how dreadful it can sound as it put some distance between the persons.


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## cancan

Hello,

I wonder if it is standard to write with verbs conjugated for "vous", or "tu" when writing marketing materials.

Ex:

Téléchargez vs. Télécharger

Appréciez vs. Apprécier

The context is both as category titles, and body text.

Thank you in advance!


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## Blancheneige

The answer is yes, it is common to say "vous" in marketing material, unless your target are teenagers.

Some companies (such as some nordic furniture makers I'm not going to name here) are trying to introduce "tu" in their marketing material, but it's still very uncommon and subject to controversy.

So I would definitely advise using "vous".


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## Punky Zoé

I concur to Blancheneige, but in your examples you didn't use the "tu" form but the infinitive.
The infinitive is sometimes an alternative, less imperative but more impersonal.


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## victoria1

Hi
In French, it is preferable to always use the formal "vous" instead of "tu"!


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## DDT

victoria1 said:


> Hi
> In French, it is preferable to always use the formal "vous" instead of "tu"!


I agree that "vous" may be appropriate in most cases, I wouldn't generalise though since it always depends on the context  

DDT


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## Staarkali

Blancheneige already answered clearly, I would add you can also use "tu" for some free services you find on the web.

The choice between imperative and infinitive is only a matter of feeling (according to Zoe already explained)


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## victoria1

DDT said:


> I agree that "vous" may be appropriate in most cases, I wouldn't generalise though since it always depends on the context
> 
> DDT


HI
I agree with you but French people are very meticulous about the use of the formal and the informal way of address. Permission is usually granted before you can use the "tu". And in cases where you are not too sure at the degree or level of intimacy or relationship, better be safe with "vous", wouldn't you agree?


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## doodlebugger

I may already have turned into an old bugger, but when an ad uses _tu_ I know the product is not for me


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## agentgeneral

Bonjour tout le monde, 

j'ai regarde un extrait d'un video au site lemonde et j'ai note que quand une personne parle du nouveau president Sarkozy, il le tutoie: "Tu as gagne, tu doit avoir le pouvoir" quelque chose comme ca. Est-il normal de tutoyer tout le monde, meme le president?  Je suis un peu perplexe quand il s'agit de l'infomel "tu". (Je rend compte qu'il est un truc qu'on apprend pendant qu'on se familiarise au pays mais je suis curieuse de le savoir avant je pars pour la France pour les raisons evident). 

Merci d'avance.


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## jann

If the person who is speaking with Sarkozy graduated from the same school as he (ENA), then it would be perfectly normal that they get to use the informal "tu" with each other.  By custom, they may...

But you are correct that "vouvoiement" is standard in formal situations between adults who don't know each other!


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## DearPrudence

Et sinon, le journaliste Karl Zero tutoie absolument tout le monde lors de ses interviews, mais c'est un style très particulier & que lui seul ose à ma connaissance.
Sans plus de contexte, c'est difficile à dire ... Sinon, je dirais comme Jann.


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## agentgeneral

Merci, 

Simply out of curiosity, I would like to ask you one more question. I'm under the impression that the lawyer who "tutoie" Sarkozy in the video is not personally affiliated with the president. In your opinion, would the utilisation of "tu" in a case such as this be a sign of intentional disrespect or disregard? Simply put, I want to know, since you have not seen the video, if people use "tu" in order to be disrespectful.


----------



## DearPrudence

agentgeneral said:


> In your opinion, would the utilisation of "tu" in a case such as this be a sign of intentional disrespect or disregard? Simply put, I want to know, since you have not seen the video, if people use "tu" in order to be disrespectful.


Yes, it could be. Personally I'm very old-fashioned but I don't like being "tutoyer" by people I don't know.
And also you often switch to "tu" with a complete stranger you are very angry with ("Mais tu avances !" when you're at the wheel (I took off a few swearwords as well )).


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## JeanDeSponde

Effectivement, c'est quand on parle _du_ nouveau président, et pas _au_ nouveau président; et c'est pour dire une généralité, un genre de proverbe.
Il est en effet courant de dire "tu" à la place de "on" dans ce cas :_ quand on ne sait pas, on se tait_ peut devenir _si tu ne sais pas, tu te tais.
_Je crois que Dieu avait commencé, via Moïse : _tu ne tueras point._


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## agentgeneral

Merci beaucoup DearPrudence et JeanDeSponde; l'information est tres utile.


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## Denis the fatalist

JeanDeSponde said:


> Je crois que Dieu avait commencé, via Moïse : _tu ne tueras point._


Oui, et justement il l'a même dit en anglais : "thou shalt not kill" (authorized version)  Depuis les Anglais se vouvoient...


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## Kyroso Fetola

I am hoping to visit a french friend of mine over the summer and was wondering which form of you "vous" or "tu" I would use in his household. When speaking to his parents I'd use vous, his younger sibling "tu", and himself "tu" aswell? 

thanks in advance.


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## FranParis

That would denote nice manners, yes..


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## Katoussa

'vous' for the parents is for sure. Then if you don't know him very well, ask him what he prefers to be called, but if you're both young, 'tu' is fine 

Katoussa.


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## ss-bb

Living in Brussels, I just use _vous_ with everyone I meet and let them initiate the _tu_. That way, you never have to be ashamed


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## Icetrance

Comment expliquer la différence entre ces deux phrases aux non-natifs du français? 

Si je disais à mon patron:

_Vous êtes un con_ (très grande possibilité que je me fasse virer)
_Tu es un con_ (sans doute possible que je me ferai virer)

J'ajouterai aussi qu'il est possible de lancer de terribles insultes en vouvoyant quelqu'un. Ce faisant, on garde encore un respect, quoique miniscule, pour l'autre. Cela peut sembler bizarre aux non-natifs, mais c'est bien vrai. L'emploi soudain de "tu" dans ces circonstances, cela serait de l'irrespect total (au cas où s'il s'agirait d'un enfant, d'un ado)


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## coolpurpleything

Bonjour!

I would like some help with a particular situation with tu and vous. I know normally when you use it, except for this situation:

If somebody who you don't know is doing something that is annoying or stupid. For example:

- a man who won't leave you alone in the street
- somebody who throws their rubbish all over your garden

Do you call them tu or vous? I'm not sure which, my instincts say tu but I don't want to get it wrong. 

Merci d'avance de m'aider!


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## jetset

"_Vous_", but you can use "_tu_" if the person is a child/teen.


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## coolpurpleything

Ah, thank you, that has cleared a lot of it up for me. 

Merci bien!


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## enoo

I think that depending on the context, both can be used.

I would use either *tu* or *vous*.
*Tu* only if the annoying person is rather "young" (for some reason it's easier to use *tu* for "young" people. Now... what I call young is anyone younger than me or almost the same age - so that definition may vary  ). *Tu* would also be a sign of "fake familiarity", a way to say that I don't have respect for that person.
*Vous* is fine too, it means that I want to hold myself aloof from that person. (I think I'm more likely to use *vous* in your second example, but not sure why. :| )

Well, now that's just my opinion, I suppose it can change depending on people, mood, etc.


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## jetset

I agree. If you are very angry, using "_tu_" means you show no respect either, but you can be tough using "_vous_" also... Just keep in mind the age tip (young persons), to make it simple !


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## coolpurpleything

Ah, ok. The "fake familiarity" thing you are talking about is where I was having the most problems, as I know that in some languages, using the informal way of speaking it is much more rude, and was just wondering if this happens in French too.

But thank you very much for explaining it to me, now I know what connotations each one has, I can use them more wisely


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## tiago16

Une autre question sur tutoyer et vouvoyer:  Quand vous étiez au lycée, est-ce que les profs vous tutoyaient ou vouvoyaient?


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## Punky Zoé

Bonjour

Je crois me souvenir qu'à l'école primaire ils nous tutoyaient et qu'après au lycée, il nous vouvoyaient (mais j'ai un doute pour les petites classes, 6e et 5e).


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## tiago16

Mais au lycée il vous vouvoyaient?  Merci, votre réponse est très utile.


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## jann

See also Tu or Vous for students


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## tiago16

Merci, Jann!


----------



## Lacuzon

Bonjour,

De mémoire, j'ai toujours été voussoyé, que ce fût à l'université, au lycée, au collège ou à l'école primaire. J'ai toutefois un doute pour les premières années de primaire. Mais ce doit être une question de génération.

Mes enfants furent tutoyés à l'école primaire mais sont voussoyés au collège où le besoin d'autorité et de distanciation est sans doute plus prégnant.

Bon courage.


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## mirifica

jann said:


> If the person who is speaking with Sarkozy graduated from the same school as he (ENA), then it would be perfectly normal that they get to use the informal "tu" with each other. By custom, they may...
> 
> But you are correct that "vouvoiement" is standard in formal situations between adults who don't know each other!


 
Hello, Yann

Sarkosy n'est pas membre du club. Il n'a pas fait l'ENA mais des études d'avocat.


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## mirifica

Bonjour,

Ce débat est très intéressant. Il y a aussi une question de génération. Beaucoup d'internautes du forum se tutoient. Mais les codes restent les mêmes : on ne tutoie pas quelqu'un qu'on ne connaît pas, sauf in 'disrespective manner' : les immigrés sont souvent tuttoyés d'emblée.

En tant que professeur, j'aurais aimé vouvoyer mes élèves au lycée. J'étais la seule. J'ai dû renoncer. Mais quand je rencontre quelques anciens élève, je les vouvoie.


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## Punky Zoé

mirifica said:


> [...]Beaucoup d'internautes du forum se tutoient. Mais les codes restent les mêmes : on ne tutoie pas quelqu'un qu'on ne connaît pas, sauf in 'disrespective manner'


 Les choses ne sont pas aussi simples et binaires[....] 





> les immigrés sont souvent tutoyés d'emblée.[...]


 Houla ! Rien à voir, il me semble.


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## mirifica

agentgeneral said:


> Merci,
> 
> Simply out of curiosity, I would like to ask you one more question. I'm under the impression that the lawyer who "tutoie" Sarkozy in the video is not personally affiliated with the president. In your opinion, would the utilisation of "tu" in a case such as this be a sign of intentional disrespect or disregard? Simply put, I want to know, since you have not seen the video, if people use "tu*" in order to be disrespectful*.


 
Bonjour

 (about the last mail) 
When I talk about immigrants, I know that, contrary to he the French, they may be 'tutoyés' par l'administration et la police. C'est une marque de mépris.


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## mirifica

Bonjour, Punky Zoe,

Agent général a demandé si le tu pouvait être utilisé de manière irrespectueuse. Ma remarque est donc pertinente même si elle n'évoque rien pour toi. Je sais de quoi je parle car cette pratique est répandue dans l'administration et la police malgré les protestations des associations.


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## KaRiNe_Fr

Salut,



mirifica said:


> [...] même si elle n'évoque rien pour toi. [...]


Pourtant, je suis sûre que tu ne méprises pas Punky Zoé ! 
Pour ma part je crois que l'étiquette utilisée dans les forums est très différente de celle de la « vraie vie ». [...]


----------



## Denis the fatalist

Très drôle. ce post qui ressort trois ans après.. une vie ? Je passe par là, bonjour à tous. Bon.Quelques fondamentaux. Ce questionnement fantasme du TU vs VOUS vient d'un malentendu voire d'une inculture. Contrairement à ce que tout le monde prétend l'anglais n'est pas républicain, il ne tutoie pas il VOUVOIE (voussoyer disait-on aussi). C'est simplement la forme "TU" qui a disparu (cf Bible King's James authorized version, circa 1650, "Thou shalt not kill", TU ne tueras point). 
Variante amusante, grâce à Mussolini et ses adeptes qui tutoyaient tout le monde (non je ne vise personne Rue du Faubourg St Honoré), la politesse italienne a été en 1945 obligée de réintroduire la 3éme personne (lei + conjugaisons compliquées) pour dire le "Vous". 
Ciao à tous je retourne sur mon nuage sélénien.


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## jackuppskararen

Hi,

Having lived in France for around a month, I would really appreciate some input on the tu/vous question; if my boss is using 'tu' when addressing me, am I then allowed to do the same? I know that it has earlier been standard to use tu "downwards" in the hierarchy, and vous "upwards", but is this still the practice?

Where I work (a lunch restaurant) there are four (French) bosses; one at maybe 26-27 who is overlooking most of the work, and three men at perhaps 35-40, 35-40, 45-50 who all show up only once in a while.
Me and my colleagues are all 20-25 years old, and all non-French. We are all tutoying each others and the youngest boss, but I do not know with the older ones who are tutoying me?

Thank you,
Alfred


EDIT: I forgot one thing; I only know the bosses by their first names, and it seems accepted to address them with those. And using the first name is on the same level as using 'tu', right?


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## tawhid

Bonjour, 

Si vous avez un doute il vaut mieux utiliser le "vous", surtout pour des supérieurs plus agés.

Le fait d'appeler quelqu'un par son prénom n'est pas équivalent au tutoiement, on peut appeler quelqu'un par son prénom et le vouvoyer, c'est tres courant dans le monde du travail, ou meme avec ses beaux parents par exemple, c'est un peu une marque de proximité et de respect à la fois.

Dans le doute utilisez le "vous", et si cela les gène ils vous diront de les tutoyer.


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## boterham

If you are not sure, I would recommend that you keep saying "vous" until they tell you to say "tu". And no, you can call someone by their first name and still use "vous".


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## caxelair

boterham said:


> If you are not sure, I would recommend that you keep saying "vous" until they tell you to say "tu". And no, you can call someone by their first name and still use "vous".



Je valide totalement ces propos! *Quand tu ne sais pas tu vouvoies*, aucun risque de "froisser" quelqu'un. De plus, ce sont tes chefs, ils sont plus agés et tu les vois peu.
Normalement, tu te mets à tutoyer les "chefs", si tu es invité à le faire.


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## jackuppskararen

D'accord, merci beacoup! I'll keep using vous, and try to get used to it; I must say  that, coming from Sweden where the "tu"-form has been used for addressing everyone since the 60s, I find it an awkward habit. So please try to speed up the process of using tu more often, SVP


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## atcheque

Bonjour,

my parents: usually tu, but according to *manners*
classmates in the same class(not close): tu
schoolmates (not close): tu
older relatives (close): usually tu, but according to *manners*
older relatives (not close): according to *manners*
workers in a company with the same rank as me: according to cultural environment, just do like the others
workers in a company with lower rank than me: according to cultural environment, just do like the others
a french speaking girl I just saw and I wanted to approach: vous, unless you are both youger than 20 or in a night club


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## Micia93

pour moi, tout dépend de ce que l'on va faire avec la personne qu'on nous présente pour la première fois. S'il s'agit par exemple, de passer la soirée ensemble (chez des amis, à un mariage ...), je dirais spontanément "tu". De même, en vacances, si on se trouve à partager la même randonnée que d'autres personnes.
Ce qui est amusant par contre, est qu'il m'est pratiquement impossible de tutoyer une personne que j'ai vouvoyée pendant longtemps! (c'est le cas de mon chef de service par exemple)


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## nico13

En France le tutoiement est utilisé pour parler avec ses proches où quand on cherche à créer une intimité (un mec qui parle avec une jeune fille même inconnu utilisera plutôt le tutoiement pour se rapprocher). Mais quand on s'adresse à un professeur, un inconnu, les parents des amis, le banquier, un gendarme, la caissière etc. On utiliseras le vouvoiement, marque du respect et de la politesse. Bien sûr, quand on commence à bien se connaitre, il est parfois naturelle d'employer le "tu". Donc quand nous parlons à nos camarades de classe on emploieras le "tu", quand nous parlons à nos collègue on emploieras le "tu" (si on souhaite créer un rapport) ou "vous" si on souhaite juste être poli, mais il est préférable de commencer par vouvoyer si on a un doute, comme ça on ne prend aucun risque, dans tout les cas c'est très courant en France. Après il y aussi les cultures, certaines personnes ne supportent pas le tutoiement avant un certain niveau d'intimité.


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## Pierre_zane

But I've seen a scene in Reflets 1 Episode 07 where a young guy asks another young stranger : Salut! Je cherche le directeur M. Fernandez. Tu sais où est son bureau?

I think Reflets is compiled by French, so my question is - isn't this a bit impolite? Or is it acceptable among youngsters?

It is nowadays very common to address people by the first name even if you've just met. Can people then 'se tutoyer' when they address each other with first names?


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## spirite

I've heard young people - students - _tutoient_ each other right away, even if they're meeting for the first time. However, in those situations, there was a friend in common. I don't know if this holds true if two young people are meeting for the first time.

I'd think that if you're on a first-name basis, _tutoyer _would be normal. Asking "on se tutoie?" before switching over seems common.


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## Soleil_Couchant

This is an interesting thread to me. The same book I'm translating for fun (from early 1900s) does a lot of jumping around from vousvoyer to tutoyer and vice versa in the dialogue. I very much have interpreted it as intentional, going from respect/formality to sudden lack of respect as well as the other way Markus mentioned...from being chummy to suddenly cold and detached, even in some examples as a slap in the face. I am not a natural francophone, so I suppose I could have been understanding it all incorrectly... but, in the context of the story, these switches have matched perfectly and I feel underscore/enlighten the character's feelings in a way that gets totally lost in the English translations (as English has no 'vous' vs. 'tu' equivalent).


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## intrigue

Sorry to revive an old thread, but I'm trying to find a solution to a problem - a bit of a cri de coeur. I have no option but to initiate contact with a person on a business-related matter, and this somebody is a person that I haven't had any contact with for many months but with whom I used to be on very close tutoy-ing terms. It's a very embarrassing situation and I don't want to make it worse than it already is. My instinct is to say 'vous'. But it would be great to hear from a native speaker, how they would react if they were contacted by an ex, but this time in a professional context, a year down the line, and the ex addressed them as 'vous'. Would that seem entirely normal and polite, or would it seem like being offensive?


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## JeanDeSponde

For me, once _tu_, always _tu_.
The fact that the context has changed entirely doesn't matter — if a former schoolmate of François Hollande were to meet him again after 30 years, Hollande would probably raise an eyebrow were he addressed with _vous_.


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## intrigue

Thanks. Was going to use 'vous' so you have saved me from digging an even deeper hole for myself.


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## Mauricet

> once _tu_, always _tu_.


Oui, mais il y a des exceptions. Par exemple, un professeur qui tutoyait ses jeunes élèves les vouvoiera s'il les revoit adultes. Et il y a un tutoiement conventionnel entre les participants d'une session ou d'un stage, qui ne sera pas forcément prolongé au-delà.

Mais dans le contexte dont parle intrigue, certainement ...


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## timboleicester

Pourquoi pas ajouter un petit PS même manuscrit reconnaissant le fait que pour des raisons de convention tu l'as adressé formellement.


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## intrigue

Oui... J'aurais voulu le vouvoyer pour lui faire comprendre que nos relations recommencent à zéro dans un nouveau contexte. Mais comme JeanDeSponde a expliqué, recommencer à zéro n'est pas envisageable donc faut faire avec.


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## philfree

Personnellement, dans ce cas là j'écoute mon instinct. Il n'y a pas de règle absolue. Il faut sentir si la situation permet en effet le tutoiement ou non. Par exemple, devant d'autres collègues ce serait très gênant pour la personne de la tutoyer. Il n'y a pas de problème à dire 'vous' en public pour la première retrouvaille et 'tu' en privé, par suite. En résumé, il s'agit de faire appel à son intelligence émotionnelle.


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## Nucleos

Je connais de nombreux locuteurs qui ne supportent pas de vouvoyer quelqu'un plus de cinq minutes, sauf si la personne est vraiment très vieille, ou vraiment complètement inconnue (mais dans un village, personne n'est vraiment inconnu...) Et d'autres qui ne supportent pas d'être tutoyés, à moins d'une relation d'amitié très intime.

Je pense que la règle globale est que "tu" implique un contact plus proche, tandis que "vous" exprime une certaine réserve, une distance.

Donc parfois, dire "tu" à quelqu'un est tantôt tout à fait normal (entre camarades de classe), tantôt les locuteurs vivent le tutoiement comme un «forçage» («Tu me dis tu? Hey ho, on n'a pas gardé les vaches ensemble...»), ou comme une brisure des règles sociologiques.

De même, parfois dire "vous" à quelqu'un est tantôt tout à fait normal (quand on s'adresse à une très vieille femme inconnue), tantôt les locuteurs vivent le vouvoiement comme un «forçage», pas naturel, etc. Très vite, si la relation devient intime, le "vous" est perçu comme "une distance de trop", "un message contradictoire", etc. (Ce qui est amusant, c'est que cette distance est voulue dans certaines familles de la haute société, où les enfants vouvoient leurs parents, et où les parents se vouvoient entre eux : «Charles, veuillez aider votre père à ranger vos jouets.»)

Moi-même, parfois, je ne sais pas bien quel code adopter. Globalement, les gens qui partagent quelque chose de 'personnel' (activité, âge, classe sociale) se tutoient entre eux, et tendent à vouvoyer le reste. Dans les grandes lignes aussi, même si c'est en plein mouvement depuis 1968, les bourgeois se vouvoient davantage entre eux, et les pauvres se tutoient davantage entre eux. Du moins, d'après mon expérience, on passe plus vite à "tu" quand deux locuteurs d'âge différents sont issues d'un milieu pauvre.

Si je ne sais pas bien quel code adopter, c'est que je passe très régulièrement pour des raisons professionnelles, d'un espace à un autre : je voyage beaucoup et je rencontre des gens de classes sociales très différentes. Chacun a un avis très précis sur le "temps du tutoiement" et le "temps du vouvoiement", mais en fait il n'y a aucune règle précise hors d'un contexte. Pour l'anecdote, chez moi, en Bretagne, j'ai entendu quand j'étais petit de très vieilles personnes qui avaient la règle suivante : elles vouvoyaient les femmes, et elles tutoyaient les hommes. (Cela vient d'un dialecte breton près de chez moi -- ce n'est pas du tout une règle française, mais cela montre bien la diversité possible au sein du territoire.)

A l'école aussi, j'ai vu des professeurs se vouvoyer devant nous, et se tutoyer dès que les élèves étaient partis, pour ne pas dévoiler leur collusion ou leur amitié.

L'autre raison pour laquelle le vouvoiement passe vite à la trappe, c'est que c'est plus compliqué de retenir deux formes d'adresse plutôt qu'une seule. J'ai déjà entendu des locuteurs m'expliquer qu'il ne voulait pas me vouvoyer parce qu'ils «ne se souvenaient plus bien comment on fait»... Il y a des gens en France pour qui c'est très rare d'utiliser deux pronoms pour l'adresse à quelqu'un.


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## Icetrance

Nucleos said:


> L'autre raison pour laquelle le vouvoiement passe vite à la trappe, c'est que c'est plus compliqué de retenir deux formes d'adresse plutôt qu'une seule. J'ai déjà entendu des locuteurs m'expliquer qu'il ne voulait pas me vouvoyer parce qu'ils «ne se souvenaient plus bien comment on fait»... Il y a des gens en France pour qui c'est très rare d'utiliser deux pronoms pour l'adresse à quelqu'un.



Bonjour! 

Vous voulez dire donc qu'il y a des gens en France qui ne savent pas comment on ferait pour "bien" vouvoyer (bien = être à l'aise)? Ils optent pour tutoyer même quand ce n'est vraiment pas conseillé: c'est devenu trop loufoque de vouvoyer au fil des années car aujourd'hui il y a bien moins de formalité dans les contacts de tous les jours (ça fait peu naturel). Alors vouvouyer, c'est assez illogique pour certains.


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## Mauricet

> c'est devenu trop loufoque de vouvoyer au fil des années car  aujourd'hui il y a bien moins de formalité dans les contacts de tous les  jours (ça fait peu naturel). Alors vouvouyer, c'est assez illogique  pour certains.


Si c'est ce que dit Nucleos, je trouve ça très très exagéré. Le vouvoiement est très loin de disparaître ou d'être devenu gênant.





> Ils optent pour tutoyer même quand ce n'est vraiment pas conseillé


J'ai vu une fois un jeune tutoyer l'employé de la SNCF au guichet. Mais c'était un Belge néerlandophone, il ne connaissait pas les usages. Les Français ne font pas ça, ni chez les commerçants, ni en répondant à quelqu'un qui demande son chemin, par exemple.


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## Nucleos

Je ne voulais pas dire que le vouvoiement devenait loufoque. (Ça peut être l'inverse : il y a des gens qui ne font que se vouvoyer, et qui trouvent le tutoiement loufoque.) J'évoquais juste que la raison derrière tout ça, c'était de n'avoir qu'une seule forme.

En réfléchissant récemment, je me suis rendu compte que j'ai déjà vouvoyé des amis intimes, à intervalles réguliers : par exemple, si je me retrouve avec eux dans une situation étrange, qui rappelle l'univers bourgeois, ou un univers guindé, comme un cocktail très chic : «Vous reprendrez bien du champagne, Ursule ?». Ou bien, si nous jouons à être le serviteur l'un de l'autre, on peut carrément utiliser "il" à la place de tu/vous : «Monsieur reprendra-t-il du café ?». (Bon, ce sont des cas limites, puisque ce n'est pas le langage 'courant', c'est un jeu...)


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## tiny_tam

Nucleos said:


> De même, parfois dire "vous" à quelqu'un est tantôt tout à fait normal (quand on s'adresse à une très vieille femme inconnue), tantôt les locuteurs vivent le vouvoiement comme un «forçage», pas naturel, etc. Très vite, si la relation devient intime, le "vous" est perçu comme "une distance de trop", "un message contradictoire", etc.



Hi, what an interesting and informative thread - but c'est très compliqué! Especially when it gets to specific situations.

I live in rural NW France where people are generally very formal. However, one of my neighbours, about 60, just started tutoie-ing me (I'm 45), so do I continue to vouvoie as she's older or will that seem cold? I don't know her very well and am a bit shy to ask her myself.

Secondly, the mayor's wife (about my own age), has been tutoie-ing me since I met her and I just don't know what to do as she is heirachically higher than me.

My neighbours kids (10 and 12) always vousvoie me - is it appropriate to ask them to tutoie me even though I give them private English lessons?

When I first arrived, a man my age instantly tutoied me so I followed his lead and I think he might have taken it that I was open to amourous advances, so now I'm always worried about whether I should just start tutoiement when the other person does.


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## Souxie

J'avoue je n'ai pas pris le temps de lire tout le fil.

D'une façon générale si tu entretiens des liens purement amicaux avec ces personnes - quelque soit le degré d'amitié, quelle que ce soit la différence d'âge - tu peux les tutoyer. Ils peuvent se vexer si tu continues à les vouvoyer, mais si tu hésites, demande-leur "est-ce que je peux te tutoyer ?"
Si il y a autre chose que de l'amitié, un rapport de pouvoir, continue à vouvoyer.


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## Nem'o

I know exactly what you feel because I've grown up in a rural part of Beaujolais (I love my "campagne" but really, I'm better off in the city!) and relationships with people around you are quite different in small villages compared to big cities. It's a whole new world for someone who has never really lived in small villages and I guess it must be hard to understand the codes and sense of decorum for someone who comes from the city or from a big town... And still harder for someone who is not French! 

But I have some good tips for you 

Let's start by the easiest situation: the kids! It's very personal and therefore I think everything is possible because the kids won't try to understand something you might or might not think behind this tutoiement or vouvoiement (if you know what I mean)! I think they just don't really care, that's why you really should do what you feel. 
If you think that they are smart enough to understand that tutoiement doesn't rhyme with disrespect, and that they won't use that against you (it sometimes happens with some sly kids but it's quite unusual), and, besides, that it would improve your relationship to them, then ask them to say "tu" to you... If you're fine with "vous", then you can keep using "vous"... I think that with kids, it's really a question of feelings.

But with the other persons... Ahah! That is not as simple as that...
For the mayor's wife, I really think that there is nothing related to hierarchy. Well, I don't know her, but I know that in small villages, normally people tend to tutoie one another quite quickly and that the mayor (and his wife) does not really "impress" people. So, I think that if your relationship with her is quite friendly, you can ask her, as Souxie said "est ce que je peux vous tutoyer?". And you'll see right away if you can or not, believe me! 

For your neighbour I can understand. I think that if you don't know her very well and that she is older than you, keep on vouvoie-ing her, and maybe sometimes she will ask you to tutoies her, but I don't think it would seem cold at all to keep on vouvoie-ing her! You know sometimes with older people, you can really have a wonderful friendly relationship, and vouvoie them all your life (I can tell you because I sometimes still hesitate to say "tu" to my grandmother... I don't know if it's because she's very old, because I respect her to much or... Well, don't know. But see, it happens even with family!). 

And finally, for the man... Aaah, men!!! 
No, seriously, I think it really depends which person you're dealing with and in most cases it's a natural feeling: either you feel really comfortable with people and you know you can use "tu" any time, or... Well... you wait and see! 
Hope it helped! 

It's sometimes not easy for us, French people, to know How to deal with "tu" and/or "vous", so I can understand it's hard for you! Good luck!


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## mari6s

Nem'o said:


> It's sometimes not easy for us, French people, to know you to deal with "tu" and/or "vous", so I can understand it's hard for you! Good luck!



So true. I often have a hard time figuring out if I should say "tu" or "vous" to people, for instance my friends' parents. And you risk offending people either way... 

The hardest thing is when I come back from an English-speaking country , for a few weeks I get confused and say "tu" to professors for instance...

Sometimes the best thing to do is just ask: "On se tutoie ?" - of course it can be awkward, but maybe not so much if the person in question knows you're not a native French-speaker. 



intrigue said:


> But it would be  great to hear from a native speaker, how they would react if they were  contacted by an ex, but this time in a professional context, a year down  the line, and the ex addressed them as 'vous'. Would that seem entirely  normal and polite, or would it seem like being offensive?



I would definitely seem weird to me, especially with that kind of close relationship. If a classmate from primary school said "vous" to me, even after years of estrangement and even if we didn't know each other so well, I would raise an eyebrow - and, depending on who the person is, interpret it as a bit bizarre, offensive, arrogant, or overly respectuous. And if we'd been close friends at any point, I would make a joke out of it ("How important do you think I've become?")

Then again, as a counter example, my parents have always said "vous" to their parents-in-law, even though younger generations tend not to do so.


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## Nem'o

mari6s said:


> I would definitely seem weird to me, especially with that kind of close relationship. If a classmate from primary school said "vous" to me, even after years of estrangement and even if we didn't know each other so well, I would raise an eyebrow - and, depending on who the person is, interpret it as a bit bizarre, offensive, arrogant, or overly respectuous. And if we'd been close friends at any point, I would make a joke out of it ("How important do you think I've become?")
> 
> Then again, as a counter example, my parents have always said "vous" to their parents-in-law, even though younger generations tend not to do so.



Yes, it would seem so weird to me too! And I think I couldn't help say something like "Oh, you've apparently become so important in a year that you won't stoop to say "tu" to me anymore!" or something like that. 
More than weird, I think I would be quite offended indeed! And I would not find this reaction as polite at all, on the contrary, I would think the person is clearly taking the piss out of me and far too condescending with me! 
I totally agree with JeanDeSponde and Mauricet (there are indeed some exceptions).


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## tiny_tam

Souxie said:


> D'une façon générale si tu entretiens des liens purement amicaux avec ces personnes - quelque soit le degré d'amitié, quelle que ce soit la différence d'âge - tu peux les tutoyer. Ils peuvent se vexer si tu continues à les vouvoyer, mais si tu hésites, demande-leur "est-ce que je peux te tutoyer ?"
> Si il y a autre chose que de l'amitié, un rapport de pouvoir, continue à vouvoyer.



Merci, ça m'aide beaucoup! Je suis très reconnaissante 



Nem'o said:


> relationships with people around you are quite different in small villages compared to big cities ... but I know that in small villages, normally people tend to tutoie one another quite quickly



Thanks for all your advice Nem'o. I'm not sure if perhaps it's different here in the north-west, but it seems the rural population here seem to be quite formal generally. Which is why my neighbour and the mayor's wife surprised me. The villagers who have grown up together do tutoie each other but they normally vouvoie us newcomers. I think I'm just going to have to bite the bullet and ask as I don't want to upset them either way. All your tips are very helpful and appreciated


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## mari6s

tiny_tam said:


> Thanks for all your advice Nem'o. I'm not sure if perhaps it's different here in the north-west, but it seems the rural population here seem to be quite formal generally. Which is why my neighbour and the mayor's wife surprised me. The villagers who have grown up together do tutoie each other but they normally vouvoie us newcomers. I think I'm just going to have to bite the bullet and ask as I don't want to upset them either way. All your tips are very helpful and appreciated



As a general rule (which of course doesn't apply everywhere all the time), it takes longer to get to know people in the North of France than in the South. It obviously depends on the specific area and on each person, and once they do know you, people are just as friendly, but they won't hug you (or say "tu") the first time you meet. Think of the South of France as closer to Spain and Italy, and the North of France as closer to the UK and Germany...


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## DearPrudence

I grew up in a tiny village in Normandy, where basically everyone knew everyone and I realize only now that all my life, my grandparents called their neighbours/friends by their surname and used "vous".
_"Vous allez bien, Madame Romain ?"_
Even now in my building, I couldn't imagine calling my neighbours "tu", even if I know their names and talk to them from time to time and if some of them are younger than me. Except for kids under 10, I would always use "vous".
I would say the simplest is to use "vous" and if they want it to change, they'll certainly say:
"Vous savez, vous pouvez me dire "tu" / "Tu sais, tu peux me tutoyer."

(and if your mayor's wife is like the one in my old village, then she's definitely not hierarchically higher than you )


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## tiny_tam

mari6s said:


> ... it takes longer to get to know people in the North of France than in the South ..


Yes, I think that's spot on for round here. They are mainly lovely, friendly people, but I think I'll be a newbie for a long time! Thanks for your reply.

Yes, DearPrudence, I'm just over the border from you in Mayenne so I reckon the protocol will be similar. So I should even vouvoyer 12-year-olds and young teenagers?


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## DearPrudence

Oh, yes, sorry, I was a bit general with neighbours,.. In this case, I would say that I don't quite like it when checkout ladies/hairdressers/... use "tu" with teenagers/young adults.
But if you personally know them, you're right, it's different.
I would use "tu" but personally, I'd rather they used "vous" to address me, as I addressed neighbours, teachers,... when I was young.
(apparently, some school kids address their primary school teacher by their first names and with 'tu': that's just too much for me! )

(and it's not because we don't use 'tu' that often that we are not friendly!  )


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## Souxie

La nuance importante ici c'est que ce n'est pas toi qui a décidé de tutoyer ces personnes, ce sont elles qui se sont mises à te tutoyer. Donc par là elles témoignent d'une certaine proximité avec toi.

Pour certaines - comme les voisins ou les personnes qui ont de l'amitié pour toi - continuer à les vouvoyer est possible mais peut être bizarre voire impoli.

Si tu vouvoies quelqu'un qui te tutoie c'est que tu lui reconnais une ascendance sur toi: due à l'âge et/ou la hiérarchie sociale, par exemple.

La seule particularité, à mon avis, se situe avec les personnes âgées. Dans ce cas il vaut mieux y aller avec diplomatie et demander l'autorisation du tutoiement, si tu ressens le besoin de les tutoyer.


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## mari6s

tiny_tam said:


> Yes, DearPrudence, I'm just over the border  from you in Mayenne so I reckon the protocol will be similar. So I  should even vouvoyer 12-year-olds and young teenagers?





DearPrudence said:


> Oh, yes, sorry, I was a bit general with neighbours,.. In this case, I would say that I don't quite like it when checkout ladies/hairdressers/... use "tu" with teenagers/young adults.
> But if you personally know them, you're right, it's different.
> I would use "tu" but personally, I'd rather they used "vous" to address me, as I addressed neighbours, teachers,... when I was young.
> (apparently, some school kids address their primary school teacher by their first names and with 'tu': that's just too much for me! )
> 
> (and it's not because we don't use 'tu' that often that we are not friendly!  )



When I was in primary school (in Auvergne) the teachers and kids all used "tu" with each other. Then in middle school, we had to use "vous" with the teachers, but not all of them said "vous" to us... and even now in my "grande école" (university level school, in Paris) some teachers use "tu" with the students. I personally don't mind at all and it even makes me feel more comfortable, but other people might tells you it's patronizing!

But it's a completely different thing with teenagers you don't know at all... Like if you ask them what time it is in the street, I'd use "vous" if they look over 15 (or less, it's not like teenagers usually mind being considered as grown-ups!)

Another example in another area: I did a few internships and every time my colleagues said "tu" to me and asked that I do the same (despite the age difference and hierarchical relation). But I know people who've been working together for 20 years and still use "vous".

Anyhow I think this whole thread shows that the difference between "tu" and "vous" very much depends on personal perception...


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## tiny_tam

Merci & thank you DearPrudence, Souxie et Mari6s. All your advice is very helpful and much appreciated. I'm feeling more confident that I can tutoie with those specific people who have started to tutoie me and my teenage neighbours, but I'll just ask if I'm not sure, as you suggested.


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## Kujita

Indeed, ask them is the best thing to do. It will never offend anybody BUT the situation might tend to become awkward... I think it's better if you aren't a native speaker, people will understand it's even more complicated for you. I hate tutoiement-vouvoiement to be honest, it's my least favourite thing about french. I have heard so many times things like that :
"Mais tutoie-moi!"
"Ne me vouvoie pas, voyons!"
It gets boring

Good luck!


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## tiny_tam

Merci! I agree, c'est trop compliqué pour moi! But with all your (that's you plural here) help I'm getting there. I very much like the plural vous that we don't have in English - it's very useful .


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## timpeac

I know that in education you can have a situation where the teacher will say "tu" to the pupil, and the pupil will say "vous" to the teacher, but outside of this situation is it common to have relationships where one person says "tu" and the other says "vous"? I say "common" as I'm sure it's not impossible - an elderly neighbour, for example, who has known a child as "tu" since they were little would not expect the child to start saying "tu" when they turn 18 - I'm thinking more of hierarchical relationships between adults. In general would you find that all employees of a company call each other "tu" or all call each other "vous", or are there commonly examples of a more senior employee being "vous" and the junior "tu"?

I suppose another way to ask my question is - if someone addresses you as "tu" are you always safe to address them as "tu" also (tiny tam's mayor's wife, for example)?


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## tiny_tam

timpeac said:


> ... is it common to have relationships where one person says "tu" and the other says "vous"? ... I'm thinking more of hierarchical relationships between adults. In  general would you find that all employees of a company call each other  "tu" or all call each other "vous", or are there commonly examples of a  more senior employee being "vous" and the junior "tu"? ... I suppose another way to ask my question is - if someone addresses you as "tu" are you always safe to address them as "tu" also (tiny tam's mayor's wife, for example)?


There are some interesting comments on that in this thread if you look back to March last year. Also, the protocol in towns and cities can be different from in the country and it also varies according to area (the North is more formal) and even the company itself.


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## Nem'o

I wanted to answer and develop so many things you said earlier but I'll keep it short!

As a teacher, I've got a rule: 
collège (11/15 ans), I use "tu"
lycée (15/18 ans), I use "vous"
And they always use "vous" (of course!) 

I can explain why: when I meet for the first time my tiny little 6ème, I just can't say "vous" to them, they are like... so little and cute (but they quickly turn into evil teenage monsters... About 2 or 3 months after their first day in collège... *sigh*). And given that situation, I want them to be all treated equally, so 6ème or 3ème, it's "tu". And anyway, they are just too young for "vous", you wouldn't like to make them feel too important (they already think they master the whole world...).
But then, in lycée it's really different, they are more mature and less hmm... how to say that without being offensive... Less in their teenage phase (let's put it like that).
So it's more natural for me to say "vous" and it creates some distance between me and them (which is very good when you want to impress them the first days of school, then you can soft down a bit, but "tu" is prohibited all year long)! At first, it strikes some of them when I say "vous", maybe because they are not used to it or because they weren't excepting it due to the small age difference (I'm in my mid 20s...). 
Anyway, I think this is a good solution (if there is one) to the tu/vous problem with kids and teenagers. But once more, it is a very personal thing and there is no magical recipe for that.

The second thing I wanted to say, it's more like a tip I always used when I was a kid/teenager (less now, but still do sometimes, it can turn out to be still quite useful): the neutral and impersonal demeanours.
I don't think the expression I've just invented means anything, but it means something to me! 
The rule: never use either "tu" or "vous" in your sentences when talking to someone, but use passive forms, "on", "tournures impersonnelles" etc...
It works, at least if you don't have to hold a conversation for too long!


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## DearPrudence

It looks like a good rule, Nem'o 


Nem'o said:


> [...] The rule: never use either "tu" or "vous" in your sentences when talking to someone, but use passive forms, "on", "tournures impersonnelles" etc...
> It works, at least if you don't have to hold a conversation for too long!


I am a great advocate of this method. But sometimes, after 15 seconds of conversation, you may have to make your decision:
_"- Comment allez-vous ?
- Bien, et vous, euh, tu ?"_ Argh! OK, I will not ask him/her how he/she is then 
_- Vous avez passé de bonnes vacances ?
- Oui, très bonnes. Et vous/toi ?"_ OK, I will not ask him/her any questions!


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## tiny_tam

Great advice and ideas! Thank you all!


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## mari6s

timpeac said:


> In general would you find that all employees of a company call each other "tu" or all call each other "vous", or are there commonly examples of a more senior employee being "vous" and the junior "tu"?



Yes, that does happen, a boss or manager might say "tu" to his employees, especially if they're younger, and they may not dare using "tu". It depends on the specific company... 

One tip is, you'll never say "tu" to someone if you're not on first-name basis with them. So if the senior employee is "Monsieur" or "Madame" Martin, then you'll definitely use "vous" - BUT just because you're on first-name basis does NOT mean you'll necessarily use "tu". 

Usually in that kind of situation, a new employee will just start by saying "vous" until asked to do otherwise, or ask a colleague what's the protocol, or use Nem'o's trick with "on" until they see what everybody else does - it's not any more obvious to natives ;p


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## NKOS

Hi all,
Need a bit of clarity on the difference between 'vous' and 'tu' (as in where it is used).
As we all know, French (unlike English) has two forms of address, i.e vous & tu,
similar to Indian languages, where the distinction between the polite and informal form of address is quite strict. 
In fact most of the Indian languages like Hindi, Bengali, Oriya etc have 3 forms of address viz. Polite, Informal & Casual, and their usage is strictly defined and adhered to.


I have given below some permutations & combinations of relationships. 
Kindly correct if there are any errors. 

TU :
Between husband-wife, lovers, friends, casual acquaintances
to anybody younger or lower position.

VOUS :
Stranger / Acquaintance,
to anybody older (unless its an old servant) or higher position, 

Any suggestions? Thanks.

* Moderator note:* see also tu / vous - married couples, lovers


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## Boiron

NKOS said:


> TU :
> Between husband-wife, lovers, friends, casual acquaintances
> to anybody younger or lower position.
> 
> VOUS :
> Stranger / Acquaintance,
> to anybody older (unless its an old servant) or higher position,



Unfortunately, you can't limit the use of "Tu" or "Vous" to these cases.

Some examples :
- a professor will use "vous" when talking to a student
- a CEO will use "vous" when talking to his employees
- a mother-in-law will use "tu" when talking with her son's/daughter's spouse but this spouse will use "vous" when talking to his/her mother-in-law
- and so on...


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## Uncle Bob

NKOS said:


> TU :
> ...
> to anybody younger or lower position.
> 
> VOUS :
> ...
> to anybody older (unless its an old servant) or higher position,



Perhaps that's a bit dated in European terms.
Using "tu" to somebody in a lower position would not be considered polite - it means you want to insist on your superiority. I've never had, nor come across, a servant but I would assume one would have to be very pompous to use "tu".


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## Chat Perché

Uncle Bob said:


> Perhaps that's a bit dated in European terms.
> Using "tu" to somebody in a lower position would not be considered polite - it means you want to insist on your superiority. I've never had, nor come across, a servant but I would assume one would have to be very pompous to use "tu".



Je suis tout à fait d'accord avec Uncle Bob, la situation hiérarchique n'a plus réellement d'influence sur l'emploi du 'tu', et il est très impoli d'employer le 'tu' avec un subordonné ou un employé de maison par exemple (à moins que les deux personnes soient amies, ou s'accordent sur ce point, et utilisent toutes deux le 'tu' ). 

Donc, désolée NKOS mais une liste d'emploi du 'tu' et du 'vous' risque de comporter plus de cas spéciaux que de cas généraux ! (Un autre exemple me vient à l'esprit : celui du policier qui utilise le 'tu' pour parler à un suspect et asseoir son autorité).


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## NKOS

Chat Perché said:


> Je suis tout à fait d'accord avec Uncle Bob...



Thank you all for your valuable inputs.
Perhaps I failed to mentioned that I was talking in an Indian context, where the rules of social etiquettes are a bit different from a modern european context, although not very dissimilar.
And yes Uncle Bob, you will find huge traces of the feudal hangover in the Indian subcontinent (except for the metro cities), where the social distinction between 'master' and 'servant' is enormous. 
And what you would label as laughable or pompous, would be viewed quite seriously halfway around the globe.

So just to clear any confusion, I'm just reiterating the above mentioned -
that in the french context, it is always safe to use 'vous', whenever in doubt ; 
and that 'tu' is mostly used amongst friends or for the younger generation (where there is familiarity) or children or in certain situations as mentioned above by Chat Perché.

Another query - 'would a child / person use 'vous' or 'tu' to address the father, mother, the favourite uncle, the lovable aunt.
(I understand that in the modern context, the concept of the strict parents is slowly going out of vogue) 

[...]


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## NKOS

scandalously in love said:


> Hi all - I made a little boo boo, and I'm wondering how to fix it.
> 
> I teach french in an anglophone school.  But I am lucky enough to have a french-speaking parent to talk to, every once in a while!  She's very nice - but so far we've been "vousvoying" each other - which is understandable, giving the setting.
> 
> I am used to using vous on elderly people, but not on younger people, and I tutoyed her twice in one conversation.  She is so nice, and didn't make any acknowledgement of my slip-up, but continued to vouvoye me.
> 
> I'm mad at myself because I hate appearing "anglophone" - I don't want to be making mistakes like that!
> 
> Do I go back to vousvoying her now?  (I have such a hard time remembering, because its so unnatural to me, and I know I will slip up again.)  I feel like if I cross the line between tu/vous, it will seem silly/embarrassing to change back.
> Do you think we will continue to vousvoye each other?  Could the teacher-parent relationship ever cross into tutoyage?
> 
> Thanks for the insights which I know will come!



Comment la relation «tutoyer / vouvoyer» aurait lieu entre deux personnes (du même âge) de milieu social différent, où l'un d'eux est un homme cultivé et raffiné, qui utilise toujours 'vous' avec tout le monde, et l'autre est un pauvre ouvrier, dans les rues, et dans laquelle (à cause des caprices du destin), ce dernier a lié d'amitié avec le monsieur et fourni une assistance précieuse, et le gentleman est bien sûr redevable à l'ouvrier, mais ils ne pourraient jamais être égaux. L'ouvrier, bien sûr, va utiliser «tu». mais serait le monsieur répondre avec un tu ou vous?
Merci.


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## LV4-26

NKOS said:


> L'ouvrier, bien sûr, va utiliser «tu». mais serait le monsieur répondre avec un tu ou vous?
> Merci.


Selon toute vraisemblance, ni l'un ni l'autre n'utiliseront le "tu". Et la situation, aussi particulière soit-elle, ne change rien à l'affaire. 

Cependant, en admettant que l'ouvrier se mette à tutoyer le "bourgeois", celui-ci s'abstiendra de s'en offusquer, d'abord parce qu'il lui est redevable, ensuite pour ne pas gâcher une situation de "bonne réprocité".

De deux choses l'une
- soit il continuera à le vouvoyer en faisant semblant d'ignorer le tutoiement de l'ouvrier.
- soit il acceptera de se conformer à son tutoiement, un peu comme on accepte une main tendue.


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## NKOS

Icetrance said:


> Comment expliquer la différence entre ces deux phrases aux non-natifs du français?
> 
> Si je disais à mon patron:
> 
> _Vous êtes un con_ (très grande possibilité que je me fasse virer)
> _Tu es un con_ (sans doute possible que je me ferai virer)
> 
> J'ajouterai aussi qu'il est possible de lancer de terribles insultes en vouvoyant quelqu'un. Ce faisant, on garde encore un respect, quoique miniscule, pour l'autre. Cela peut sembler bizarre aux non-natifs, mais c'est bien vrai. L'emploi soudain de "tu" dans ces circonstances, cela serait de l'irrespect total (au cas où s'il s'agirait d'un enfant, d'un ado)



This issue is culturally specific to English speakers, since they have, ages back, removed the distinction between vous (polite tone) and tu (informal tone). In most of the other languages, like french, german, spanish, italian, indian, japanese etc, there is a clear distinction between polite & informal forms of address. For example, in the Hindi heartland, you may shower the choicest expletives on a person, (and still get away with it) but if you dare use 'tu', it means war.


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## NKOS

LV4-26 said:


> Selon toute vraisemblance, ni l'un ni l'autre n'utiliseront le "tu". Et la situation, aussi particulière soit-elle, ne change rien à l'affaire.
> .....De deux choses l'une
> - soit il continuera à le vouvoyer en faisant semblant d'ignorer le tutoiement de l'ouvrier.
> - soit il acceptera de se conformer à son tutoiement, un peu comme on accepte une main tendue.



Merci. Je suppose que c'est une chose individuelle et varierai de situation à situation. Peut-être qu'il n'y a pas de réponse simple à cette question "vous-tu '.


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## LV4-26

C'est en effet à traiter au cas par cas.

Ce qui complique la question, c'est que, comme vous semblez l'avoir compris, il y a deux faces à la médaille.
Le _vous_ est -- souvent -- plus respectueux que le _tu_. En ce sens, le _tu_ peut avoir une connotation péjorative.
Le _tu_ est -- souvent -- plus amical, plus chaleureux, que le _vous_. En ce sens, c'est le _vous_ qui peut avoir une connotation péjorative.

Il faut toujours garder ce double aspect à l'esprit quand on traite cette question. 

Il ne faut pas non plus oublier -- cela a déjà été dit, je pense -- que cette question pose presque autant de problèmes aux francophones qu'aux non francophones.


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## Nem'o

En effet, pour rebondir sur le dernier commentaire de LV4-26, et pour donner un exemple concret (et parfaitement en contexte afin que tout le monde puisse comprendre!), je pense que ce double aspect pose parfois problème car l'un ou l'autre peut être mal pris.
Par exemple, j'ai tendance à tutoyer tous les membres de ce forum (bizarrement je le fais beaucoup plus facilement avec les anglophones qu'avec les francophones...) mais je dois avouer qu'il m'arrive souvent d'utiliser des chemins de traverses pour n'utiliser ni "tu" ni "vous" (l'anglais arrive souvent à ma rescousse quand j'hésite!).
Je regarde l'âge (si possible) bien entendu avant d'utiliser "tu", et je ne me permettrais pas d'utiliser le tutoiement avec quelqu'un qui serait bien plus vieux que moi. Et pourtant, c'est tout-à-fait ridicule puisque personne ne voit l'âge que j'ai... 
Mais quoi qu'il en soit, j'essaye tout de même de privilégier le "tu" pour que l'échange soit plus amical et chaleureux... Mais la question se pose souvent. 

Je pense aussi que la sphère écrite/orale peut impacter énormément sur l'utilisation de l'une ou l'autre forme, même si, en général, cela s'uniformise souvent après quelques échanges oraux et écrits dans le sens où l'un des deux locuteurs demandera de passer au tutoiement (si la situation s'y prête) et cela se fera aussi bien à l'écrit qu'à l'oral.


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## larrykohling

Hello everybody. I often hear that it can be offensive to use the Tu form in the wrong context, but is it also offensive to use the Vous form out of context? I'm am staying with a host family right now and they use the Tu for me, and even seem a little offended when I refer to them in the Vous. I don't know if I should switch though, because what if I'm wrong, and they do prefer Vous?


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## DearPrudence

Hi and welcome to the forums, larrykohling 

I must say I was quite hurt a few times when some people used "vous" with me when "tu" would have been more normal.
But in this case, I would continue with "vous" until they tell you to use "tu". If you keep using "vous" after they have told you to use "tu", then, they might be offended but not before I would say.


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## Chimel

I don't think that using "vous" can be offensive: it can be felt as being too formal or cold or distant, but not offensive. In case of doubt, it's (nearly) always safer.

In your case, you must also evaluate the kind of relations you have with this family. Did they kiss you the first time you saw them or was it a rather formal greeting? Do you call them by their first name or is it monsieur, madame? Do you feel a sort of intimacy, do you sometimes talk over more personal things?...

If so, don't hesitate to ask the permission to use the "tu" form as well ("Je peux vous tutoyer aussi? Ça ne vous dérange pas si je vous tutoie aussi?" - the "vous" here is used as plural, assuming that you ask both of them). But I wouldn't switch to the tu form without clearly asking so.


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## tiny_tam

We've been in rural NW France 3 years now and find it really varies between individuals. My next door neighbours are about the same age as us still vouvoie each other respectfully. A local older man insists on vouvoiement although we are now good friends - I asked him why and he said because he thought it was disrespectful to vouvoie a woman, as it might imply sexual advances. Some newly-met neighbours - our age - the husband tutoies but the wife still vouvoies - so I'm really confused there. All the professionals vouvoie as I would expect, except the nurse who takes my blood samples (although I only see him rarely), and the mayor's wife (again, they are both my age).


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## JOFlah

If I could throw in another angle here, suppose a prison, with guards and prisoners. Would all address each other by tu or by vous, or would there be an assymetry? Between the warden and prisoners, or between warden and guards? Or would the same rules apply as in the rest of society?


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## Micia93

As far as films or documentaries show the truth, it appears that guards systematically say "tu" to "prisoners", but it's not always the case on the other way round (depends what stuff the prisoners are made of).


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## LART01

JOFlah said:


> If I could throw in another angle here, suppose a prison, with guards and prisoners. Would all address each other by tu or by vous, or would there be an assymetry? Between the warden and prisoners, or between warden and guards? Or would the same rules apply as in the rest of society?



Bonjour,
Pour les prisons, je ne sais pas mais les policiers français ont reçu pour instruction de leur ministère de ne pas tutoyer les personnes, notamment les jeunes avec lesquels ils entrent en contact pour justement éviter cette asymétrie irrespectueuse.

Quand j'étais enfant, cette question du tutoiement et du vouvoiement me perturbait énormément.
Mon père disait "vous" à ses parents ( paysans du Doubs)
Ma mère disait "tu" à ses parents ( pieds-noirs de Mostaganem, Algérie)
Je disais "tu" à mes 4 grand-parents mais ça n'a jamais posé de problèmes à mon père. On n'en a même jamais parlé ensemble.

Aujourd'hui, j'ai tendance à tutoyer les amis de mes enfants qui sont de jeunes adultes et je fais attention à me corriger en les vouvoyant sauf si je les ai connus très jeunes pour justement éviter cette asymétrie....


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## Nem'o

Je pense que dans de telles situations (police, prison etc.) tout dépend vraiment des deux personnes qui se rencontrent et de la situation donnée au moment X.
Le vouvoiement, comme le tutoiement, peut être utilisé. Et certains policiers/gardiens de prisons, j'en suis sûr, vouvoient constamment toutes les personnes a qui ils ont affaire; d'autres non.
Cela dépend du caractère.
Finalement, c'est la même chose aussi pour les professeurs qui enseignent en lycée.
Personnellement je vouvoie mes élèves car j'estime qu'ils arrivent à un âge où ils vont vite devoir se rendre compte de la réalité de la vie d'adulte, mais j'ai énormément de collègues qui les tutoient. 
Cela dit, en principe, plus l'année avance, plus j'ai du mal à vouvoyer mes petits secondes (même si je tiens bon!) car la relation a évoluée et je les connais très bien maintenant...

Tout ça pour dire que tout dépend de la situation dans laquelle on se trouve... Comme ce ne sont pas des relations entre personnes qui se connaissent bien, mais qui se voient pourtant pratiquement tous les jours, je pense que le vouvoiement/tutoiement relève du caractère de chacun.


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## Chimel

Micia93 said:


> As far as films or documentaries show the truth...


Dans les films sous-titrés (ou souvent, hélas, doublés), je m'amuse toujours à repérer le moment où la traduction décide de passer au tutoiement.

Souvent, le scénario montre l'évolution des relations (amour, amitié, rivalité, conflit...) entre deux personnages qui ne se connaissaient pas au départ. Dans les films français, il y a un momentoù le scénariste les fait se tutoyer - typiquement, quand il s'agit d'une histoire sentimentale, après qu'ils ont fait l'amour la première fois. Mais c'est parfois plus subtil, par exemple s'il s'agit des relations entre deux collègues ou voisins.

Dans les films étrangers, c'est le traducteur qui doit décider à partir de quel moment l'évolution des relations entre les deux personnages est telle que le tutoiement s'impose. Si nos ami étrangers ont l'occasion de regarder des films sous-titrés (ou parfois aussi de lire des romans traduits), c'est un bon moyen pour "sentir" la différence entre tutoiement et vouvoiement.


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## mari6s

larrykohling said:


> I often hear that it can be offensive to use the Tu form in the wrong context, but is it also offensive to use the Vous form out of context?



I wouldn't exactly say offensive, but it can be perceived as putting distance in the relationship, and that can be hurtful in certain situations. But it would never be perceived as lack of respect, whereas "tu" can in certain contexts. In your case, I would simply ask them - it's often done and even more understandable when French is not your mother tongue. 

Truthfully though, even French people struggle with tu and vous occasionally, and I think part of the reason is that different people perceive it differently, as we can see with all the different answers here. Everyone has their own instincts and the trick is to constantly adapt to other people's perception. 

For instance, usually my natural reaction would be to use "vous" with people in positions of authority (teachers, employers etc.) but if they don't like it I try to adapt... and I understand their reaction perfectly, since I don't like to be called "vous" by a person I've known relatively well for a long time. On the other hand, I don't particularly like the habit that people my age (twenty something) have to use "tu" in various contexts without knowing you at all - for example when you go out dancing.


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## Micia93

that's funny, because in certain circumstances (work, holidays ...), I systematically say "tu" to a person I know I will spend much time with. A person of my age I mean, not to an older one, which I would find unpolite.


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## mari6s

Micia93 said:


> that's funny, because in certain circumstances (work, holidays ...), I systematically say "tu" to a person I know I will spend much time with. A person of my age I mean, not to an older one, which I would find unpolite.



So do I, but only in circumstances where I actually spend some time with the person. It's hard to explain the exact difference I make between these occasions, I guess if I am on first-name basis with someone then I'd use "tu". But if I'm out dancing or having a drink with friends, I really hate when a stranger comes up and calls me "tu" (usually with some kind of pick-up line) - same with the barman: I've never been called "tu" by a waiter in a restaurant, whether he's my age or not, so why would it be different in a club or a bar?

On the other hand I instantly use "to" with classmates (of all ages) or colleagues my age, for instance.


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## Icetrance

Ça se complique vraiment quand on insulte quelqu'un, non?

On tutoie pour l'insulter, ou bien on le vouvoie?


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## Chimel

Ça dépend...  

Le tutoiement est normalement le mode de l'insulte. Ainsi, lorsque deux inconnus se disputent, par exemple dans le trafic ou pour une place de parking, et en arrivent à s'injurier, ils auront tendance à se tutoyer d'emblée ("J'étais là avant toi" - "Va te faire f..."!)

Mais prenons le cas d'un débat, politique ou autre, qui tourne mal. Au début, les interlocuteurs se sont poliment vouvoyés ("Je ne suis pas tout à fait d'accord avec vous").Si la discussion dérape et que le ton vire peu à peu à l'insulte, ils peuvent très bien rester dans le vouvoiement, même pour s'insulter ("Vous n'êtes qu'un imbécile" - "Allez vous faire voir, espèce de demeuré").


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## Icetrance

Merci Chimel!

Oui, je vous suis là en termes généraux. Mais ne pourrait-on pas justement vouvoyer pour se montrer encore plus injurieux? C'est-à-dire pour marquer plus de distance entre moi et l'inconnu: _Je ne vous connais pas, petit con._ Ce faisant, je pars sur un ton d'indifférence pour sous-entendre "_Qui êtes-vous?/Vous n'êtes rien pour moi_" (plus méchant, plus glacial des fois), et non pas sur celui d'informalité dans le cas de: Toi et moi, allons lever les barrières sociales et venons-en aux faits:_ T'es un sale con (mais encore là, tu n'es rien pour moi lol)_. 

Oui, dans le cas d'un enfant ou d'un jeune ado, etc, on ne peut que tutoyer.

Voyez-vous à quoi je veux en venir?


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## Micia93

Je pense que lorsqu'on insulte quelqu'un très violemment, on le tutoie, non? (c'est un peu comme en voiture, le nombre d'automobilistes qu'on peut tutoyer! )


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## atcheque

Icetrance said:


> Oui, dans le cas d'un enfant ou d'un jeune ado, etc, on ne peut que tutoyer.


Bonjour,

Un bon sermon avec _M./Mlle Machin, vous..._ ça fait toujours son effet, surtout de la part d'un prof ou autre "non familier" justement.


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## EGOD

Cath.S. said:


> I would say it depends on a lot of factors. But having said that, I hasten to add that when the person who says _tu_ means to offend, there is never any misunderstanding, French people have a sort of sixth sense for such matters.


Except when young persons are concerned, or people having business in an international context, vouvoyer a stranger is nothing but a sign of normal respect ; tutoyer therefore has a meaning of an aggression. An old person would easily say "tu" to a younger one, demonstrating its superiority.
Respecting this rule, as well as respecting french grammar, gives a clear clue to identify your caste.

Vouvoyer may be a way to demonstrate the distance or the respect you want to place in the relationship ; it still happens that the children will say vous to your parents, and sometimes the husband to his wife. This becomes quite rare, but it occurs.

When one will unappropriately says tu to you, you could use the well known "nous n'avons pas gardé les cochons ensemble...", which shows as well these rules are not so much respected in lower classes and rural areas.

Milan Kundera explains this, much better than I :


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## Chimel

EGOD said:


> Vouvoyer may be a way to demonstrate the distance or the respect you want to place in the relationship ; it still happens that the children will say vous to your parents, and sometimes the husband to his wife. This becomes quite rare, but it occurs.View attachment 20327


Anecdote personnelle: mon "beau-fils" (qui ne l'est pas réellement mais qui est le compagnon de ma fille) me vouvoie alors que je le tutoie. On a commencé comme ça et on n'a pas encore changé. Ce qui montre que l'usage du vouvoiement/ tutoiement n'est pas toujours symétrique. Il arrivera peut-être un jour où je lui proposerai de me tutoyer, mais c'est à moi de le faire et je ne le "sens" pas encore.

Inversement, j'ai retrouvé un ancien prof que je vouvoyais à l'époque où j'étais étudiant. C'est lui aussi qui m'a autorisé à le tutoyer, désormais. Au début, ça fait un peu bizarre, mais on s'y fait assez vite...

Le conseil pratique que je donnerais aux non-francophones est qu'en cas de doute, le vouvoiement est le mode de la prudence: on ne fait généralement rien de mal en l'adoptant, alors que l'inverse n'est pas forcément vrai, et on peut toujours passer au tutoiement ensuite (cela dit, on n'en voudra pas non plus à un étranger qui tutoie mal à propos en parlant français avec un accent prononcé: on comprendra tout de suite qu'il ne connaît pas bien le français et que "ça doit être comme ça dans sa langue"... ).


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## alsace1961

TO_FR said:


> Vraiment, en français le vouvoiement n'est pas par défaut. On tutoie par défaut, sauf quand il faut vouvoyer et pas l'inverse.


TO_FR, je ne suis pas d'accord avec vous/toi.
Je vis depuis de nombreuses années en Italie où la langue, comme le français, prévoit aussi bien le tutoiement que la forme de politesse (...) Mais justement parce que je suis habituée au tutoiement à gogo de l'italien, j'affirme qu'on ne peut vraiment pas dire qu'en français on tutoie par défaut!!! Au contraire on est trop guindé, et cela me choque tout autant que l'excès de tutoiement de l'italien. Dans de nombreux bureaux il y a des collègues qui travaillent ensemble depuis 10 ans et se vouvoient encore ... Je voudrais personnellement moins de rigidité dans la langue française, mais ce désir n'est pas la réalité et il est extrêmement fourvoyant de raconter à des anglophones, qui ont déjà bien du mal à jongler entre le tu et le vous auxquels ils ne sont pas habitués, qu'en français on tutoie par défaut.

Le tutoiement est encore aujourd'hui réservé à deux occasions en total contraste:
c'est d'une part la forme de l'intimité, de la familiarité, réservée à nos proches, à nos amis, notre famille, aux gens qu'on connait et qu'on aime - ET C'EST LE CAS DE LA PRIERE OU PUISQUE DIEU EST NOTRE PERE ON LE TUTOIE COMME ON TUTOIE NOTRE PERE BIOLOGIQUE
et c'est d'autre part la forme du mépris utilisée par les gens sectaires, racistes et malpolis pour s'adresser à des personnes qu'ils jugent indignes, même s'ils ne les connaissent pas, pour leur manquer de respect.

Le vouvoiement au contraire indique une distance mais aussi le respect. On devrait l'utiliser TOUJOURS avec les inconnus, sauf si ce sont des enfants, alors que le tutoiement doit être accordé / concordé dans un second temps, ce qui signifie que le vouvoiement RESTE le mode de s'adresser aux autres PAR DEFAUT. Il est par contre vrai que l'on passe ensuite  au tutoiement beaucoup plus rapidement qu'autrefois.


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## TO_FR

alsace1961 said:


> Le tutoiement est encore aujourd'hui réservé à deux occasions en total contraste:
> c'est d'une part la forme de l'intimité, de la familiarité, réservée à nos proches, à nos amis, notre famille, aux gens qu'on connait et qu'on aime


Qui vouvoie ses collègues ?
Moi pour peu qu'on s'est parlé 3-5 fois on se tutoie. Et ce n'est pas moi qui lance le truc la plupart du temps.
Un voisin par exemple, si tu le vouvoies encore après l'avoir croisé 3-4 fois c'est qu'il y a un côté coincé à la relation. Ou alors qu'il n'y a pas de relation.
Je peux te dire qu'après avoir brisé la glace et pris deux cafés ensemble, on peut se tutoyer entre partenaires de travail si l'on a vocation à se revoir. ça dépend, certains diront oui d'autres non.

Après, on conviendra qu'il y a des gens plus coincés par nature que d'autres. Moi par exemple, je considère que le tutoiement est de mise quand les gens considèrent qu'il y existe une relation d'égal à égal. Voire même s'il existe une différence de statut mais dans ce cas là de manière plus progressive. C'est ce que j'observe un peu partout où je vais excepté chez les gens au discours un peu pompeux. Se vouvoyer indique qu'il n'y a pas de relation personnelle (pro peut être, mais pas personnelle) ou alors qu'elle existe non sans différence de statut.

ça dépend des gens et aussi comme je l'ai observé, des régions. En Belgique on tutoie presque des inconnus...

Il est extrêmement fourvoyant de raconter à des anglophones qu'il existe des règles officielles en matière de tutoiement, alors que la question n'implique en réalité que les personnes concernées et fonctionne au cas par cas. S'ils ont du mal à jongler comme on dit, c'est aussi et surtout pour ça.

Je dis ça je dis rien.


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## Blougouz

alsace1961 said:


> TO_FR, je ne suis pas d'accord avec vous/toi.


TO_FR: On tutoie par défaut sauf quand il faut vouvoyer et pas l'inverse.

C'est plutôt vrai en Bretagne...! (Mais bon, la Bretagne, c'est pas la France!  )


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## alsace1961

TO_FR said:


> Se vouvoyer indique qu'il n'y a pas de relation personnelle (pro peut être, mais pas personnelle) ou alors qu'elle existe non sans différence de statut.


Oui c'est probablement ça, la "règle", la relation personnelle.
Mais tu dis toi-même TO_FR que tu passes au tutoiement après 3-4-5 rencontres, ce qui implique que pour les premiers contacts toi aussi tu vouvoies les gens et seulement successivement, plus ou moins rapidement, de commun accord vous passez au tutoiement si une relation personnelle s'est instaurée.

Et je suis complètement d'accord qu'en fin de compte ça dépend beaucoup des gens et des cas, mais je suis sûre qu'en Bretagne, Blougouz, tout comme en Alsace on ne s'adresse pas aux inconnus en les tutoyant. Encore aujourd'hui en France dans un magasin, un restaurant, un taxi, personne ne tutoie d'emblée un client et il me semble que les jeunes ne tutoient pas par défaut les parents de leurs copains, leurs enseignants ni les gens plus agés qu'eux.
Il est vrai que tu as écrit qu'on tutoie 





Blougouz said:


> sauf quand il faut vouvoyer


 mais alors il faut dire que des cas où il faut vouvoyer, il y en a vraiment énormément !! Au premier contact on ne se tutoie qu'entre jeunes, pratiquement.


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