# Should your neighbours have a say in how you decorate your house?



## maxiogee

This report caught my eye and I'm not talking about the sign in question *(that it not up for discussion!)*.
Should this association have a say in what anyone hangs on their house?
Do similar associations operate where you live? Have they the power to impose a fine? (The most we get over here are resident's associations - which are impotent in such matters.)
Are they common?


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## Talant

Hi Maxiogee,

I think that the neighbours don't have anything to say about your decoration unless:
- your decoration is against the law or is done in bad faith.
- you live in a condo, block,... where your decoration mixes with your neighbour's. In those cases the decoration is usually chosen by the neighbours association.

But they shouldn't be able to impose a fine, unless you have already agreed to that: you're a member of the association, the statutes of the housing complex states the right to impose fines,... But then the fault you're been fined for should be described in those statutes.

It ends being a case of logic and common sense, instead of being a case of rivalry, petty grievances and such. Or was it the other way round?

Bye


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## Paulfromitaly

maxiogee said:


> Should this association have a say in what anyone hangs on their house?


They should not, especially when the sign is clearly not offensive and not  dangerous at all (like a sharp iron sign could be for children, if hung at a reachable height).


> Do similar associations operate where you live? Have they the power to impose a fine? (The most we get over here are resident's associations - which are impotent in such matters.)
> Are they common?


I don't know about any associations like that where I live (northern Italy) and even if there were some, I think they couldn't impose a fine.
The only way to put yourself in trouble over here would be hanging any kind of anti-Catholic or even worse anti-Christian sign on your house.
What would be likely to happen in that scenario is:
- your neighbours moan at the local vicar about the indecent sign you (who are supposed to be a free citizen, but not when it has to do with religion over here..) dared hang  outside; 
- the vicar pops in at the mayor's office, moaning about that filthy, indecent, immoral and dangerous for the young generation sign you dared hang, threatening to slag him off during the Sunday sermon delivery if he won't do anything about it;
- the mayor rings the police up letting them know about a dangerous terrorist who's been frightening the whole town with his devilish anti-catholic sign;
-eventually, a kind officer comes to your house politely asking you to remove that harmless sign, so that the mayor, the vicar and the shocked neighbours will stop busting his nuts 24/7...


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## LV4-26

> Lisa Jensen said she wasn't thinking of the war when she hung the wreath


Then I wonder why Yahoo News includes the pic in a slideshow entitled "Anti-War Protests" . Surely that isn't going to help Ms Jensen get out of trouble.

I've never heard of cases like that here... I mean decorations being objected to due to what they're alleged to symbolize. But there are places where you can't decorate and even build your  house the way you like. I'm referring to places which are "classifed" sites of historical and/or artistic significance. But I guess that's totally different.


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## Etcetera

In Russia, you can't re-organise your flat (i.e., remove a wall between two rooms) without the official's permission. That's because some walls are vital for the house's balance, and some are not; if the officials decide that you project of reconstruction may cause dangerous consequesnces for the house, they won't give you that permission. 
But otherwise, you're free to decorate your house in whatever fashion you like.


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## Chaska Ñawi

I find that fascinating, given that the official reason for the American presence in Iraq is to install peace and stability.  Perhaps this is a tacit admission that peace isn't the main objective.

A bedroom community of Ottawa, called Kanata, is notorious for its municipal statutes.  It is prohibited to hang your laundry outside to dry, do any work on your car in your driveway other than wash it, use certain colours of paint (I think - I may be making that one up), and failure to comply results in stiff fines.  That wreath would pass without comment, however.

Thanks for bringing this up, Tony.


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## übermönch

They shouldn't, but they do anyway!  The municipal government has put up a lot of laws prohibiting you to decorate your flat or house in any way that would hurt the town's "romantic image", i.e. you can't paint your house green, you can't hang a sattellite dish etc. etc.;  They even once knocked at my door, because they didn't like the my authentic 19th century lantern that hung outside.


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## cuchuflete

In the US, if one lives in a condominium or co-op, there may be all sorts of little rules, some very sensible, and other.....
By taking title to the condominium property, or buying the right to occupy a dwelling in a co-op, one legally agrees to the rules of the governing association.  After that, it comes down to human pettiness and the courts to interpret what the rules really mean, and whether they are in accord with housing and other laws.  

If the article is accurate, the legal issues here would be-
1-"The subdivision's rules say no signs, billboards or advertising are permitted without the consent of the architectural control committee."  Is the wreath a sign, legally?
2-Can the president legally dismiss the board members?

Yet another potential legal issue is whether the association can extract from its members, as a condition of ownership, the denial of a constitutional right.  I assume that a condo association may do this, as membership is voluntary, and restrictions on signage are common in such associations.


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## Fernando

There are hundreds of regulations in Spain by State, autonomy and city (specially the latter) stating what you can and you can not display (antennas, plants,...) as well as inner walls, terraces, etc.

Of course nobody pay any care.


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## zebedee

What I find most intriguing about this article is that this Mr. Kearns, President of the Homeowners Association who's the one who insists that "three or four people" have complained about the wreath... 





> ...ordered the committee to require Jensen to remove the wreath, but members refused after concluding that it was merely a seasonal symbol that didn't say anything. Kearns fired all five committee members.


 
So much for the Season of Goodwill...


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## Brioche

Back in 1998, police in Leicester [UK] seized a collection of porcelain pigs from a front window because Muslims claimed they were objectionable.

The householder was threatened with prosecution if she replaced the collection of figurines.


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## maxiogee

Brioche said:


> Back in 1998, police in Leicester [UK] seized a collection of porcelain pigs from a front window because Muslims claimed they were objectionable.
> 
> The householder was threatened with prosecution if she replaced the collection of figurines.



Why do I get the feeling, reading that, that the objectors were never asked to explain what the objection was? Was it because 
(a) the pigs were representations of living things...
(b) the representations were of 'unclean' animals...
(c) they were, artistically, dreadful kitsch...
(d) they were deliberately collected and displayed by the so as to cause offence...
?


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## Etcetera

übermönch said:


> They shouldn't, but they do anyway!  The municipal government has put up a lot of laws prohibiting you to decorate your flat or house in any way that would hurt the town's "romantic image", i.e. you can't paint your house green, you can't hang a sattellite dish etc. etc.;  They even once knocked at my door, because they didn't like the my authentic 19th century lantern that hung outside.


Well, well, well...
Old towns are more than just nice places to stay in. They're usually monuments of this or that age. And I believe that people should think how to preserve the beauty and charm of such places. 
There's nothing wrong about a 19th century lantern, I think, but painting a house next to a Middle Age cathedral green is a bad taste!


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## Paulfromitaly

maxiogee said:


> Why do I get the feeling, reading that, that the objectors were never asked to explain what the objection was? Was it because
> (a) the pigs were representations of living things...
> (b) the representations were of 'unclean' animals...
> (c) they were, artistically, dreadful kitsch...
> (d) they were deliberately collected and displayed by the so as to cause offence...
> ?



You get that feeling (and so do I) because only dull-minded people would kick up a fuss about a collection of porcelain pigs: such people neither ask for explanation nor want to hear any.


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## AngelEyes

Where I live, in Michigan, there are a lot of what's called: "Gated Communities." These are located in very ritzy, exclusive neighborhoods.

In fact, I had Thanksgiving dinner at a home in just one of these places.

You have to drive through a guarded gate to get into the neighbohood. All these homes are built around a golf course. 

Visually, everything is stunningly beautiful. Lakes and greens and pastoral settings. After dinner, I sat and watched a family of deer meander around the property. 

But there are strict laws you have to adhere to. No pets can be tied up at dog houses outside. (This is a major GOOD THING.) You can't have fences around your yard. Assorted stuff like that. 

There's a Community Board that over-sees everything.

Why would anyone want to live like that?

I guess if you move into one, it's because you're of the mindset that a little loss of freedom is worth it for the exclusiveness and prestige that comes along with living there.

Personally, it leaves me cold.

Having rules and restrictions concerning Historical properties is, I think, a good idea. In America, we can't wait to tear down the old and replace it with cheap new. I like having some sort of protection to save and preserve what will never come again.

Also, having a set of rules for a large multi-family dwelling such as an apartment building or a condominium complex is needed to guard against chaos between strangers living so closely together.

I guess it really is a matter of taking every situation into consideration separately from each other.


AngelEyes


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## TrentinaNE

> Why would anyone want to live like that?


It gives some people a sense of security (some might say a false sense, or one that comes at a high price).  To each his own!?

Elisabetta


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## ElaineG

One thing that no one has mentioned is property values.

The town in NJ where my parents live has strict regulations about exterior appearances of property:  no signs (1st Amendment challenges have established that you can have a political sign, but "for sale" signs and other advertisements are forbidden); you must keep your lawn mowed and orderly, and your house must be in a reasonable state of repair, freshly painted, etc. etc..

These are town ordinances, not a private association.   People get really mad when they get a ticket for having a messy lawn, but I think overall, people like it, because property values are among the highest (in already exorbitant) northern NJ.  

The "picture-perfect" aspect of the community becomes a common good that everyone benefits from, financially.  


I don't know whether you could mount any legal challenges


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## timpeac

I live in a conservation area where any slight amendment to the property has to be agreed by the council - I would be sued if I put up such a sign for that reason.

I think that you have the right to decorate/build as you like, as long as you are in keeping with local laws - with which, of course, you should have fully familiarised yourself before purchasing the property.

If this is purely an issue of the neighbours not liking the particular way you have decorated then I don't think neighbours should have a say (although living in a built up city I find it hard to imagine a situation where neighbours do not legally have recourse to complain about how you decorate).


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## cuchuflete

I went digging through some old emails, and found this:



> This is a true story, it happened in Utah and was on the news!  I
> thought each of you could use a little comic relief today. Here's the story.
> 
> A city councilman, Mark Easton, lives in this neighborhood.  He had a
> beautiful view of the east mountains, until a new neighbor purchased
> the lot below his house and built.  Apparently, the new home was 18 inches
> higher than the ordinances would allow, so Mark Easton, mad about his lost
> view, went to the city to make sure they enforced the lower roof line
> ordinance.
> Mark and his new neighbor had some great arguments about this and as you can imagine not
> great feelings.
> 
> The new neighbor had to drop the roof line - no doubt at great expense.
> 
> Recently, Mark Easton called the city and informed them that his new
> neighbor had installed some vents on the side of his  home.  Mark
> didn't like the look of these vents and asked the city to investigate.  When they
> went to Mark's home to see the vent view, this is what they found...(see
> attached


Have a look.


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## timpeac

I used to love seeing this

http://www.headington.org.uk/history/misc/shark.htm

in Oxford as the bus went past the top of the road. It was always a highlight of the journey - and I understand that the neighbours have campaigned for years to have it removed.


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## GEmatt

I remember that - - hope it's still there 

I found the Swiss equivalent, though!


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## Redisca

It is common for land developers in the US to create rules for their subdivisions (called "covenants running with the land") over and above zoning regulations and municipal laws. When you buy a house within a particular subdivision, the deed incorporates these covenants, and you knowingly sign on to them.  The rules are enfoced by the developer while the properties are being sold, then by the local homeowners' association.  The most common rules concern contributions to the HA for the upkeep of common areas, parking, trash removal, and changes to the appearance of one's property (which is where the decoration issue comes in).

Since these rules are in the nature of a contract, which the homeowner enters into when he purchases the property, the question of whether neighbors should have a say is moot.  They should, because they have a contractual right to do so.


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## TrentinaNE

maxiogee said:


> This report caught my eye and I'm not talking about the sign in question *(that it not up for discussion!)*.


An update from the NY Times:


> The fines have been dropped, and the three-member board of the association has resigned...
> 
> In any case, there are now more peace symbols in Pagosa Springs, a town of 1,700 people 200 miles southwest of Denver, than probably ever in its history.
> 
> On Tuesday morning, 20 people marched through the center carrying peace signs and then stomped a giant peace sign in the snow perhaps 300 feet across on a soccer field, where it could be easily seen. ...


Sometimes common sense (eventually) prevails.

Elisabetta


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## maxiogee

There is hope for humanity yet.


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## cuchuflete

maxiogee said:


> There is hope for humanity yet.


 Please restrain the optimism...




> A board member later told a newspaper that he thought the familiar circle with angled lines was also, perhaps, a sign of the devil.


NY Times article


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