# con buona pace di



## Shakazulu

Salute e auguri a tutti!
Perhaps you can help me translate this phrase. The full sentence is: "Ricerca e technologia vengono incorrigiate solo se, a breve, possano produrre utili *con buon pace di chi si batte *perche' ogni essere umano possa godere su larga scala di benefici di una scienza cosi' avanvata."
My effort: "Research and technology is fostered/encouraged only when it can produce a profit in the short term, *with the approval of the bystanders, *because every human being can rejoice at the wide range of benefits conferred by such advanced science."  - Alack! a poor thing but mine`own. HELP!


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## Elisa68

Oxford-Paravia traduce _con buona pace_ _di_ con _without offending_, ma ,secondo me, non rende.

Garzanti: _Con buona pace di tutti = __now that everybody is happy _


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## robbotiku

Garzanti on line: rassegnarsi _' con buona pace di qualcuno_, senza alcuna intenzione di contrariarlo, di offenderlo (spesso _iron_.)


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## Elisa68

Forse: _without caring_?


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## gimisan

No, you should translate: "with the satisfaction of those who fight to make those benefits -which are guaranteed by such advanced studies- available to every human being".
"Con buona pace" in this context means something different: it means that the funds given to a certain field of studies make researchers happy because they have the possibility to help people, to save their lives, etc. 
I hope it's clear enough! (the sentence is quite long and complicated...)


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## moodywop

"Ricerca e tecnologia vengono incorrigiate _incoraggiate _solo se, a breve, possano produrre utili *con buon pace di chi si batte *perche' ogni essere umano possa godere su larga scala di _dei _benefici di una scienza cosi' avanzata."

"Research and technology is fostered/encouraged only when it can produce a profit in the short term, *with the approval of the **bystanders, because * _of those whose goal is that_ every human being can rejoice at  _enjoy _the wide range of benefits conferred by such advanced science." 

I made a few corrections to the Italian text and to your translation.

As Garzanti points out, _con buona pace di _is often used ironically:

*con buona pace di qualcuno, senza alcuna intenzione di contrariarlo, di offenderlo (spesso iron.)*

I think what the writer means is that it is only when scientific/technological research can yield profts that it is encouraged/funded etc., despite the naive optimism of those who think the only reward/goal/motive of research should be improving living conditions.

EDIT: I think that in English you can use Latin _pace _for _con buona pace di._


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## Paola Ludovici

I would simply say "nothwistanding"


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## Shakazulu

Grazie a tutti! I think the writer is certainly being ironic. I misunderstood the sentence on first reading.


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## samjo

Hello everyone, how would one translate con buona pace in english??
thanks in advance


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## You little ripper!

Without context I would translate that as *without offending.....* Could you please provide us with a sentence?


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## samjo

Con buona pace della rilevanza della perizia ai fini dell'accetamento dei valori in esame.

there you go! thanks for any help


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## Lynkos

Can anyone help with the translation of this Italian idiomatic phrase in this particular context: "Le nocciole sono da consumare con attenzione dato il loro alto contenuto di acidi grassi. Con buona pace del colesterolo. Ma per i golosi sono tentazioni irresistibili". Apart from the fact that as I understand it, hazelnuts may actually help reduce "bad" cholesterol levels... but that's another matter! I have read the other forum threads featuring this term,  but none of the suggestions seems to fit. Thanks for any ideas, Sarah.


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## Poianone

Hi Sarah, I'm sorry but I didn't find a proper translation for "con buona pace del". It is a funny way to say that something or someone makes no more damages. My suggestions are these (tell me if they sounds funny to you):
_Without offending of cholesterol
With the blessing of cholesterol
With the approval of cholesterol
Cholesterol bless you_
_And the cholesterol is defeated
And the cholesterol shows white flag
_


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## london calling

Poianone said:


> Hi Sarah, I'm sorry but I didn't find a proper translation for "con buona pace del". It is a funny way to say that something or someone makes no more damages.


 
Poianone, what do you think of _cholesterol RIP_ (Rest in Peace, r_iposa in pace_)? I mean, if someone's/something's dead, they certainly can't do any more damage!!


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## You little ripper!

The first sentence sounds strange to me. I presume that *con attenzione* means *with care* in that sentence. Most of the fatty acids in hazelnuts are unsaturated (the so-called good fats) so it seems very strange that you would need to take care in the eating of them. Everything in moderation of course.


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## london calling

Charles Costante said:


> The first sentence sounds strange to me. I presume that *con attenzione* means *with care* in that sentence. Most of the fatty acids in hazelnuts are unsaturated (the so-called good fats) so it seems very strange that you would need to take care in the eating of them. Everything in moderation of course.


Maybe they mean that the calorie count is high or that they're difficult to digest  because of their high level of fatty acids? Pardon my ignorance,  it's just a thought: why would you need to take care otherwise?


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## Poianone

Sarah, Charles, London: I beg your pardon! I re-read Sarah's post and my answers, than I knocked my head against the wall!
Charles, you're right (I should say "as usual"), that "con buona pace" put there, after the first sentence, has quite the opposite meaning I suggested!
Indeed, a similar expression might be "E il colesterolo ringrazia", or even "Per tacer del colesterolo; thus:
_And the cholesterol is grateful/happy
To say nothing of the cholesterol

_The nuts must be eaten with moderation, because of their high level of fatty acids. To say nothing of the cholesterol. But they are great temptation for gluttons

Terribly sorry, mates. I'll promise I won't do it again. Now another couple of bangs against the world and I'll keep going on with my work!


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## london calling

Poianone said:


> Sarah, Charles, London: I beg your pardon! I re-read Sarah's post and my answers, than I knocked my head against the wall!
> 
> Hazelnuts must be eaten in moderation, because of their high level of fatty acids. To say nothing of the cholesterol. But they are a great temptation for gluttons


Actually I must admit you put me off track a little, but given that I've also done the same thing a number of times, please DON'T go banging your head against any walls!

I think "to say nothing of the cholesterol" works fine here!
Jo


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## Lynkos

A big thank you to you all for your answers, although reading them in fact confirms my sense of confusion with this phrase! What exactly does the author mean!? He does in fact seem to be suggesting that hazelnuts raise your cholesterol level (which as far as I'm aware is far from being the case) and thus "to say nothing of the cholesterol" would be just perfect as a translation as it indicates that hazelnuts are even worse for cholesterol than they are for fatty acids. But could the Italian in fact mean the exact opposite?


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## You little ripper!

Lynkos said:


> A big thank you to you all for your answers, although reading them in fact confirms my sense of confusion with this phrase! What exactly does the author mean!? He does in fact seem to be suggesting that hazelnuts raise your cholesterol level (which as far as I'm aware is far from being the case) and thus "to say nothing of the cholesterol" would be just perfect as a translation as it indicates that hazelnuts are even worse for cholesterol than they are for fatty acids. But could the Italian in fact mean the exact opposite?


Hazelnuts have been found to lower cholesterol, so that's not really factual. Link Most people, however, think that nuts are full of saturated fat and are bad for you, so that is probably what this person is saying.


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## Lynkos

I've just got this horrible feeling that the author (not a food expert, I know for sure) has got all mixed up about this  . Unless someone has a brainwave, I think I'm going to be putting "to say nothing of the cholesterol" which sounds great but is actually the opposite of the truth! And then I'll add a note pointing out the apparent contradiction. Thanks again to you all, Sarah.


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## You little ripper!

Lynkos said:


> I've just got this horrible feeling that the author (not a food expert, I know for sure) has got all mixed up about this . Unless someone has a brainwave, I think I'm going to be putting "to say nothing of the cholesterol" which sounds great but is actually the opposite of the truth! And then I'll add a note pointing out the apparent contradiction. Thanks again to you all, Sarah.


I think you're right. I just edited my post, but you probably didn't see that before posting.


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## Lynkos

No I didn't Charles, but I absolutely agree with you, Sarah.


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## You little ripper!

> And then I'll add a note pointing out the apparent contradiction.


Sarah, I don't think there's a contradiction. This person is saying that hazelnuts are high in fatty acids (which s/he considers bad for you), to say nothing of cholesterol.


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## Poianone

Lynkos said:


> I've just got this horrible feeling that the author (not a food expert, I know for sure) has got all mixed up about this  . Unless someone has a brainwave, I think I'm going to be putting "to say nothing of the cholesterol" which sounds great but is actually the opposite of the truth! And then I'll add a note pointing out the apparent contradiction. Thanks again to you all, Sarah.


I agree, the author used a very ambiguous expression. I admit I went in confusion too, because "con buona pace" may have different nuances, has I wrote in the posts (thank you Saoul for deleting my...deleting!). Nevertheless, I confirm that at a first glimpse, the perceived meaning is "to say nothing of the cholesterol"


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## Simels

I have another interpretation for the expression "con buona pace di" which comes from reading this sentence: "Con buona pace degli iscritti al club della semplificazione, infatti, la teoria, da lei abilmente inventata, della coabitazione tra una maggioranza di Governo ed una maggioranza di opposizione si scontra - ahinoi! - col risultato elettorale, che merita un'attenta lettura."

In this context it seems to me that an appropriate translation into English could be "Without wishing to offend.."  "no offence meant" or something similar. What does the forum think?


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## london calling

Simels said:


> In this context it seems to me that an appropriate translation into English could be "Without wishing to offend.." "no offence meant" or something similar. What does the forum think?


I agree! The Italian is obviously very sarcastic as well and "no offence meant" could be used in the same way, I daresay: you can make any sort of comment sound ironic, after all.

How would you translate the rest of it (sarcastically, of course!)?


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## morgana

"Con buona pace" is a positive sentence but always used in a sarcastic/negative sense. 

So... what do you think about "nevermind"?

"Così la politica rimane un affare di famiglia, con buona pace del conflitto di interessi"

"So, politics remains a family business... nevermind the conflict of interest"


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## King Crimson

From what I could gather from different sources (including this thread) I agree there is no all-round expression that can translate the italian "Con buona pace" and its implied ironic/sarcastic nuance; e.g. see this example from Garzanti:

_con buona pace di tutti, ora possiamo cominciare_, now that everybody is happy we can start

Obviously, the above translation wouldn't fit into every context. Personally, I like the "never mind" offered by morgana and, along the same lines, I would propose also (using the same example):
- "So, politics remains a family business... may rest in peace the conflict of interest"
- "So, politics remains a family business... and the conflict of interest will have to put up with it"


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## mwidunn

Could the above phrase, _con buona pace_, be being used in the sense of: "with all due respect"?

Thanks.


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## Akire72

Poianone said:


> _With the blessing of cholesterol_
> _With the approval of cholesterol_


 
I think these two are fine. Hazelnuts contain acid fats that help fight cholesterol, yet you shouldn't eat too many as they are very fat and high in calories.


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## GavinW

Simels said:


> "Con buona pace degli iscritti al club della semplificazione, infatti, la teoria, da lei abilmente inventata, della coabitazione tra una maggioranza di Governo ed una maggioranza di opposizione si scontra - ahinoi! - col risultato elettorale, che merita un'attenta lettura."
> 
> In this context it seems to me that an appropriate translation into English could be "Without wishing to offend.." "no offence meant" or something similar. What does the forum think?


 
Well, this one, single, individual _forero_ thinks you're on to something. I am put in mind very much of a phrase like: "At the risk of contradicting (or, yes, "offending" perhaps) members of the simplification brigade (or whatever), ...




mwidunn said:


> Could the above phrase, _con buona pace_, be being used in the sense of: "with all due respect"?


 
Well, yes, actually. If we look at simels' context above, your suggestion is effective: "With all (due) respect to those who are great believers in simplification (or whatever),....".

I think this kind of context helps us to move away from the idea that the Italian phrase has to a) be necessarily ironic (when, instead, it's also often used as a_ polite_ way of signalling that one is about to contradict somebody) or b) involve the idea of offending anybody (when, instead, the connotation is often not as strong as that, and often simply refers to simply _contradicting _somebody else).

(..._con buona pace_ degli altri foreros che hanno suggerito traduzioni, anche riportate dai dizionari, evidenziando l'apparente valore forzatamente ironico della frase in italiano)         ;-)

In fact, Moodywop was helpful at the time in suggesting the word "pace". That word can't be used very much in English, because it's only used in academic contexts. Many English native speakers have never even seen it. But the meaning is exactly right (even if the usage is different).


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## LemonAndLime

Ciao
Io sto cercando a tradurre questa frase:

'per cui quelli resuscitavano, con buona pace di amici e parenti tutti, costretti a rifare tutto da capo....'

Viene da 'Oceano Mare,' il grande libro....

Il mio tentativo sara' cosi....

'therefore those who were bought back to life, with the blessing/approval of all friends and relatives, were restricted to do everything again to their head/mind/boss'

ma ho capito che non va bene in italiano.....

Grazie!


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## london calling

LemonAndLime said:


> 'therefore those who were bought back to life, with the blessing/approval of all friends and relatives, were restricted to do everything again to their head/mind/boss'
> 
> ma ho capito che non va bene in italiano....


_Da capo_ means _from scratch_, so forget _head/mind/boss_! And _costretti_ means _forced/obliged_, not _restricted_.

Perchè non va bene in italiano, by the way?


I think _never mind_ fits in well here (they came back to life, never mind about all their friends and relatives, who had to start from scratch/all over again).


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## fsm*

From today's LaStampa.it: 

I profeti della globalizzazione ci avevano rassicurato citando «The World is Flat», il best-seller di Thomas Friedman, che ormai il mondo era diventato «piatto» (*con buona pace di Galileo...*).

Maintaining the writer's ironic tone in AmEn, I would translate:

The prophets of globalization had reassured us, citing Thomas Freedman's best-seller "The World Is Flat," that in this day and age the world had become "flat" (*no offense to Galileo*).

The expression "no offense to..." is often used in this type of situation.


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## sarah888

Hi guys you're all so funny, I like it!!! Lynkos just eat those hazelnuts their good cholesterol studies say. Everything in moderation of course. Seriously what is the Italian of _good cholesterol? Colesterolo buono? _


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## anglomania1

Hi there, 
I need to translate "con buona pace", too.
My context is the use of yeast strains in wine making to help fermentation along. The author is against this practice because he feels the wines all taste the same and are the same year in year out, with no character or personality.
My sentence: in moltissimi casi il ceppo utilizzato come _starter _non ha niente a che vedere con il territorio, l’uva e la cantina in cui il vino viene prodotto (per semplice informazione, i ceppi D254 ed EC118, due ceppi maggiormente utilizzati in Toscana per le vinificazioni in rosso, sono stati rispettivamente isolati dalla regione di Montpellier e dalla regione dello Champagne) *con buona pace della *tipicità.

In this case could I say something like "kissing goodbye to typicity"??? Or "killing any chance of typicity"????
Thanks for any comments, 
Anglo


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## Einstein

Hi Anglo

This sounds horrible but it may give someone else an idea: "throwing local characteristics to the wind" (I'm not happy about "typicity"!).

PS Proz seems to confirm "typicity", so I'll take that back!

How about "leaving/setting aside any defence of local characteristics/typicity"? A bit long, maybe.


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## You little ripper!

Anglo, I'm not sure I really understand the Italian sentence, but another couple of translations of 'con buona pace' (according to Proz) are _without the slightest trace of/without any regard for_. Would any of those work? 

_..............without [the slightest trace of]/[any regard for] typicity. _


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## Einstein

Charles Costante said:


> Anglo, I'm not sure I really understand the Italian sentence, but another couple of translations of 'con buona pace' (according to Proz) are _without the slightest trace of/without any regard for_. Would any of those work?
> 
> _..............without [the slightest trace of]/[any regard for] typicity. _


Yes, these probably work or if they don't, they certainly give a guide to the meaning.


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## You little ripper!

Einstein said:


> Yes, these probably work or if they don't, they certainly give a guide to the meaning.


Thanks, Einstein.


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## anglomania1

Hi there and thanks to everyone!
I think that cracks it -"without any regard for" could work quite well. That's basically the meaning (I assume!!).
Lot's of producers use the same yeast strains to induce fermentation and are NOT relying on native yeasts already present in the grapes -so the result is samey wines and no typicity!!
Yes, typicity is used, Einstein, I got it from Jancis Robinson's Oxford Companion to Wine. Apparently we copied it from the French "typicité"!
Thanks to all, 
Jane


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## candel

Hi

Can someone explain the meaning of buona pace here please?

 Fatto sta che la maggior parte delle persone che si dedicano alle faccende domestiche è costretta a* far asciugare il bucato appena lavato indoor*, tra le mura di casa, spesso - se non addirittura sopra - ai termosifoni con buona pace dello *stendino*.


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## ohbice

Lo stendino (stendibianchieria) si rassegni, non verrà utilizzato. 
Con buona pace: senza offesa per qualcuno (in questo caso lo stendino), o (più cattivo): alla faccia di qualcuno (in questo caso sempre lo stendino).


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## candel

So the drying rack is as it were left in peace?


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## ohbice

candel said:


> So the drying rack is as it were left in peace?



Sì, in questo caso "con buona pace dello stendino che verrà lasciato in pace". Con buona pace dello stendino: "Lo stendino viva pure la cosa serenamente...".
Scusa se non uso l'inglese ma non saprei cavarmela :-(


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## candel

Thank you...a very imaginative way of expressing that the drying rack isn't used...

Hi here is the phrase in a different context..a bear climbs on board a truck and closes door behind him sits at the wheel as if he wants to do a joy-ride and ends up tearing the back seat up...

"Ha distrutto quello posteriore - racconta Nielsen - ma credo che questo sia il danno più grosso".    Insomma anche  questa volta tutto è bene quel che finisce bene, con buona pace dell'orso aspirante pilota.

"He destroyed the back-seat- Nielson recounts- but I think this was the biggest damage". In sum, also this time all is well that ends well, without harming the would-be bear driver.

Grazie molto.


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## Teerex51

candel said:


> Insomma anche  questa volta tutto è bene quel che finisce bene, con buona pace dell'orso aspirante pilota.


Am I the only one who thinks the idiom _"con buona pace"_ is out of place in this sentence?


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## candel

Well teerex you would know much more than I. is it?


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## Teerex51

Candel, my point is the hack who wrote this picked the wrong idiom. It just doesn't fit.


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## CPA

Having ploughed through the three pages of this thread, may I suggest "so much for" as a suitable translation for "con buona pace di"?


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## Einstein

candel said:


> A bear climbs on board a truck and closes the door behind him, sits at the wheel as if he wants to do a joy-ride and ends up tearing the back seat up...
> 
> "Ha distrutto quello posteriore - racconta Nielsen - ma credo che questo sia il danno più grosso".    Insomma anche  questa volta tutto è bene quel che finisce bene, con buona pace dell'orso aspirante pilota.


My interpretation is that the bear succeeds only in doing damage inside the truck and not in driving it (and doing far greater damage). "So much for the would-be (bear) racing-driver."
I'm not saying this is a good translation, but that seems to be the meaning.


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## Teerex51

GavinW said:
			
		

> That would all depend on what the writer was trying to say, or wanted to say.


Therein lies the rub. (I, for one, haven't got a clue. Einstein found a neat solution, which however is not a translation - as he promptly admits.

And, just like CPA, I went through the whole thread, found a couple of maybes for this elusive Italian idiom and added some of my own suggestions (but none that would fit the ending of the OP newsitem):

*Con buona pace di X*


never mind X  _(they proceeded to build the highway, never mind the locals' opposition)_
X will have to live with it/come to terms with it _(former PM Sberleffoni won't be indicted; the prosecutors will just have to come to terms with it)_
X, get over it/suck it up _(the deal has been clinched; environmentalists, get over it!)_
in the teeth of X _(we have achieved our goal in the teeth of overwhelming opposition)_
X be damned _(The new zoning plan is final, tree-huggers be damned)_

Disclaimer: the above are nothing but ranging shots, as it were. Can't say there's a definite bullseye in there...


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## GavinW

Teerex51 said:


> Disclaimer: the above are nothing but ranging shots, as it were. Can't say there's a definite bullseye in there...



Oh, I wouldn't say that! There's some pretty spot-on translations there that will hit the spot in many commonly occurring contexts. Einstein's stab looks like a humdinger too, for this particular, slightly off-the-wall context.


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## giovannino

Doesn't _pace _(which was mentioned in post #6) also work in a few cases, i.e. only in formal contexts and with reference to opinions? I've often seen it used (always in italics) just as we use _con buona pace di_ in editorial comments in British newspapers. In the quote/example in _The Merriam-Webster Dictionary _the Italian phrase would work perfectly as a translation of _pace:_


> : contrary to the opinion of —usually used as an expression of deference to someone's contrary opinion —usually ital. <easiness is a virtue in grammar, _pace_ old-fashioned grammarians  — Philip Howard>


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## GavinW

I believe your question(s) (I include the earlier context involving the "stendino") raise genuine problems in Italian that are typically ignored by dictionaries, and which ordinary users of Italian themselves never normally attempt to analyse in the kind of detail your question requires. In the case in point, I am now convinced that "con buona pace" is being used "loosely" but correctly in the bear context. And it's interesting. People do sometimes use language (even their own language!) in a slightly "careless" way (ie in a way that is not rigorous, and mildly, unconsciously "creative"). I think that is what is happening here.


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## candel

Well, I am confused on different levels. Is the phrase good and acceptable Italian...in this context would an ordinary Italian use it like this? Trex says no. Gavin thinks yes. But I always follow the rule that a native normally knows best. So, perhaps Trex is right. Any other native offer a view?
[...]


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## Teerex51

Hi Candel, I honestly think the idiom was out of place, as _"con buona pace"_ always implies - in every nuance of usage - the existence of an opposite opinion, even in its formal use (see Giovannino's post). I honestly can't see a contrary stance in the ending of the story you quoted:


> All's well that ends well....


Had I been the scribe in question, I would have simply ended the sentence there.


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## ohbice

candel said:


> "Ha distrutto quello posteriore - racconta Nielsen - ma credo che questo sia il danno più grosso". Insomma anche questa volta tutto è bene quel che finisce bene, con buona pace dell'orso aspirante pilota.



La mia interpretazione, per quel che può servire: l'orso avrebbe voluto produrre danni maggiori, ma non ce l'ha fatta e tutto è finito bene. Con buona pace dell'orso. Mi sembra che tutto funzioni. Non mi convince invece la traduzione di candel.
Ciao.


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## candel

Thanks Trex for your reply. It is a very difficult expression for me and other English natives I suspect. Did he mean something like "all ended well despite the antics of the bear"? But that he pushed the expression a little too far? It is forced in this context.


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## Teerex51

candel said:


> Did he mean something like "all ended well despite the antics of the bear"?


Actually, you've just come up with the best ending... (He might have wanted to say that but forced a square peg in a round hole...)


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## King Crimson

I wouldn't say that "con buona pace" is just plain wrong in this sentence but for sure is a bit of a stretch. The only reason why you would want to use it has been explained above by Einstein and bice, that is to imply that the bear intentionally wanted to do greater damage but didn't succeed (and had to come to terms with it). In light of the difficulties in finding the right translation for this multifaceted expression I would recommend to non-native speakers to consider the example from this article as non-standard usage.


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## Teerex51

Hi KC


King Crimson said:


> ...that is to imply that the bear intentionally wanted to do greater damage _*(I thought he'd accidentally locked himself in...) *_I would recommend to non-native speakers to consider the example from this article as non-standard usage. _*(I fully agree)*_


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## candel

Well yes the whole story was a bit of a humour-piece....pictures of the bear at the wheel...the story says the bear seemed to want to drive the car round town, could't get it to start up, and trashed the seats out of a fit of pique...I think the "all is well that ends well" refers more to the fact that no harm came to man or bear, rather than the extent of damage to the seats.


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## Einstein

giovannino said:


> Doesn't _pace _(which was mentioned in post #6) also work in a few cases, i.e. only in formal contexts and with reference to opinions? I've often seen it used (always in italics) just as we use _con buona pace di_ in editorial comments in British newspapers. In the quote/example in _The Merriam-Webster Dictionary _the Italian phrase would work perfectly as a translation of _pace:_


I think giovannino deserves a reply.
I respect your research and it doesn't surprise me that such a usage exists, but I have to say I've never come across it. Maybe some other anglophone has, but I'd be careful about using it.


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## GavinW

Einstein said:


> I have to say I've never come across it.



Really? You surprise me! I've not only seen it, I've also been known to use it sometimes! It's Latin, of course (but pronounced as if it was English). (But it doesn't work here, of course, as giovannino made clear).


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## Einstein

GavinW said:


> Really? You surprise me! I've not only seen it, I've also been known to use it sometimes! It's Latin, of course (but pronounced as if it was English). (But it doesn't work here, of course, as giovannino made clear).


Well, Gavin, it may be somewhere in the darkest recesses of my memory, but by now I'm resigned to the fact that whatever you know I don't know, and vice versa.

PS "but pronounced as if it was English" - what, like "pace" meaning "passo"?!


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## GavinW

Einstein said:


> "but pronounced as if it was English" - what, like "pace" meaning "passo"?!



Yep, 'fraid so! ;-)

EDIT: I stand corrected. The pronunciation I cited is not borne out by the dictionaries. Of the various possible pronunciations, the most common is probably the one that rhymes with "racy". (Thanks Stefano)


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## giovannino

Einstein said:


> I think giovannino deserves a reply.
> I respect your research and it doesn't surprise me that such a usage exists, but I have to say I've never come across it. Maybe some other anglophone has, but I'd be careful about using it.



Hi Einstein 
Maybe I should have said "extremely formal or academic" contexts. I've come across this use of _pace _only in editorial comments in British newspapers and in argumentative essays. I'm sure it's hardly ever used in speech, except maybe in academic lectures. It may well be a rare (and becoming rarer)  usage, although it's included in a dictionary for foreign learners:
http://oald8.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/dictionary/pace_3

Here are the results of a search in Google Books for "_pace _Mrs Thatcher": link


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## Einstein

Well, I've learnt something there. And probably I _have _come across it in the past. But after all why shouldn't an English teacher teach something to native English-speakers?

PS to Gavin: I've just seen your EDIT 





> EDIT: I stand corrected. The pronunciation I cited is not borne out by the dictionaries. Of the various possible pronunciations, the most common is probably the one that rhymes with "racy".


Even worse! That pronunciation is neither English nor Latin!


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## GavinW

Einstein said:


> Even worse! That pronunciation is neither English nor Latin!



Indeed, oh the tortures that the English have subjected that noble language to! It must be some form of latter-day revenge... O tempora, o mores! (Yes, "more's" the pity...)


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## Teerex51

GavinW said:


> Indeed, oh the tortures that the English have subjected that noble language to!


Indeed. Just take _bona fide_ that almost rhymes with _Semper Fi._..


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## candel

Can someone clarify the sense here. Thanks.

Il caso Giappone comincia a fare scuola anche in Europa. La Banca  centrale ungherese guidata dall’ex ministro delle finanze György  Matolcsy (con buona pace dei sostenitori dell’indipendenza dei vertici  della politica monetaria) ha appena annunciato un nuovo abbassamento dei  tassi di interesse di riferimento.

It is about Hungary lowering base interest rates and following a Japanese model.

the Hungarian central bank led by...(with the blessing of the supporters of independence of the heads of monetary policy)...

is this correct? Grazie.


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## Pat (√2)

candel said:


> with the blessing of the supporters of independence of the heads of monetary policy


Ciao  No, il senso di _con buona pace_ è lo stesso di cui si è discusso in tutto il thread.
La Banca Centrale ungherese è guidata da un ex *ministro*, quindi da un uomo *politico *ex membro del *Governo*. Quando si parla di indipendenza dei vertici della politica monetaria si parla di indipendenza delle Banche Centrali dai Governi e dalla politica. Quindi, a dispetto dei sostenitori ecc., i vertici della politica monetaria ungherese non sono indipendenti.


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## CPA

May I again (# 57) suggest "So much for"?


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## Einstein

CPA said:


> May I again (# 57) suggest "So much for"?


Yes, I'd say so.


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## ohbice

Ciao Candel, provo a spiegartelo in italiano: coloro i quali ritengono che i vertici della politica monetaria (ovvero i vertici della Banca Centrale ) debbano essere assolutamente indipendenti dal potere politico si rassegnino: a presiedere la Banca Centrale dell'Ungheria c'è un politico, l'ex ministro delle finanze del Paese.

Rassegnarsi lo trovi qui: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=623072

e' lunedì mattina ed è ancora troppo presto: non mi ero accorto della quinta pagina!


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## Pat (√2)

candel said:


> con buona pace dei sostenitori dell’indipendenza dei vertici della politica monetaria


Tostissimo per gli anglofoni questo modo di dire. Provo a buttar giù qualche alternativa che grossomodo esprime la stessa idea.

A dispetto dei sostenitori dell’indipendenza dei vertici della politica monetaria.
Alla faccia dei sostenitori ___________________________________________
E tanti saluti ai sostenitori __________________________________________
E pazienza per i sostenitori __________________________________________
Senza offesa per i sostenitori ________________________________________
Non se la prendano i sostenitori ______________________________________
Non se ne abbiano a male i sostenitori _________________________________


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## GavinW

Pat (√2) said:


> Provo a buttar giù qualche alternativa ...



Excellent work, Pat, very helpful to people generally. Thanks!


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## candel

@PAT  3 to 7 don't seem much better to my mind...I only hope under a new centralized Europe Van rumpuy will ban this particular phrase

my suggestion....for "buona pace" read "not give a toss..."


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## Paulfromitaly

I'd often translate it with

..and X will pardon Y for..


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## AWOL4mylo

In some cases, I'm wondering if it could mean "with due respect to" or "with all due respect to", which can also be used ironically. Such as 'with due respect to the Regulatory Authority,' while pointing out a blatant error in the Authority's case for bringing charges against a private company.


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## GavinW

AWOL4mylo said:


> In some cases, I'm wondering if it could mean "with due respect to" or "with all due respect to"...



I think this is a very good suggestion, which will certainly work in some cases. (I can't remember if this suggestion has already been made before...)


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## esperanto-guy

Queste sono le traduzioni che ho fatto di alcune frasi trovate in questo thread. Uso "so much for" come traduzione di "con buona pace di".

These are the translations I have done of some sentences I found on this thread. I use "so much for" as translation of "con buona pace di".

Mangio molto formaggio. Con buona pace del dottore che vuole che abbia cura del colesterolo.

I eat a lot of cheese. So much for the doctor who wants me to take care of my cholesterol.

La ricerca è incoraggiata solo quando può produrre un profitto. Con buona pace di chi vorrebbe che tutti possano goderne i benefici.

Research is encouraged only when it can produce a profit. So much for who would like everyone able to enjoy its benefits.

Sfortunatamente questa teoria è in conflitto con i risultati elettorali. Con buona pace dei membri del club della semplificazione.

Unfortunately, this theory conflicts with the electoral result. So much for the members of the simplification club.

Quindi la politica rimane un affare di famiglia. Con buona pace di chi vorrebbe vedere i conflitti di interesse risolti.

So, politics remains a family business. So much for who would like to see conflicts of interest solved.

Per cui quelli resuscitavano, con buona pace di amici e parenti tutti, costretti a rifare tutto da capo....

So, they were coming back to life. So much for friends and relatives who had to do everything again.

I profeti della globalizzazione ci avevano rassicurato citando «The World is Flat», il best-seller di Thomas Friedman, che ormai il mondo era diventato «piatto» (con buona pace di Galileo...).

The prophets of globalization had reassured us, citing Thomas Freedman's best-seller "The World Is Flat," that in this day and age the world had become "flat". So much for the scientific discovery that the world is round.

in moltissimi casi il ceppo utilizzato come starter non ha niente a che vedere con il territorio, l’uva e la cantina in cui il vino viene prodotto con buona pace della tipicità.

In very many cases, the strain used as a starter has nothing to do with the territory, the grape and the winery where the wine is produced. So much for those who want the peculiar character of a wine preserved.


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## ohbice

Con buona pace di Tizio e Caio = Si metteseero il cuore in pace Tizio e Caio...
mettersi il cuore in pace - Dizionario italiano-inglese WordReference


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