# BCS:  Ne uči svi  šest studenata dobro



## Bresca

Hello foreros!

I'm learning BCS with the book of Mrs Alexander, and at p. 76 I've found this sentence:

uči svi  šest studenata dobro

That "Uči" is the 3rd singular person and "svi" is 3rd plural person: is this sentence correctly written? (I would say "svi šest studenata uče dobro).

Thank you.


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## Vanja

Right Bresca!

Uč*e* svi*h* šest studenata dobro. (Svih šest studenata uče dobro)

*Grupa* od šest učenika uč*i* dobro. 

(_Svi _umesto _svih _existed in old Serbian songs and literature.... her sentence sounds archaic by today's language...)


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## Anicetus

Er, actually, it should be _šest studenata uč*i*_, at least in all the standard variants of BCS. 

I guess this can seem illogical to learners, but numbers ending in 5 and higher behave somewhat like adverbs. They don't decline, they take singular verbs, agree with neuter singular participles and the noun phrase they refer to is locked in genitive plural. An attribute can't be grammatically attached to the number itself, but rather to its noun phrase. That's why it's _*svih* šest studenata_ -- _svih_ is congruent with _studenata_, it has to be in genitive plural. 

So, it's _*svih* šest studenata dobro *uči*_. And you'd say _svih *je* šest studenata dobro *učilo*_ in the past tense. In the same way:
_pet / šest / sedam / osam / devet / deset / jedanaest / dvadeset / dvadeset i pet / sto / nekoliko_ (= "some")  etc._ studenata *uči*_
_pet / šest / sedam / osam / devet / deset / jedanaest / dvadeset / dvadeset i pet / sto / nekoliko_ etc._ studenata *je učilo*_


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## Duya

Our rules on number agreement and declensions are ridiculously mind-boggling. Sometimes I wonder how we, native speakers, managed to learn them. 

For me, both _Ne uči_ and _Ne uče_ are grammatical; i.e. in this position both grammatical (singular) and natural (plural) agreement work, as in English _The Government is/are gathering..._. I need to check what grammars say, but I'm reasonably sure they'll support it.

However, that does not hold in general case. For numbers over 5, it works for masc. and fem. words. For numbers 2-4, one has to use plural verb:

_Sva tri studenta uče dobro_, not *uči.
_Sve tri žene uče dobro._

But if instead of the number proper, one uses a "numeral noun", you again have a choice:

_Sve troje studenata uči dobro._
_Sve troje studenata uče dobro._


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## Anicetus

Duya said:


> For me, both _Ne uči_ and _Ne uče_ are grammatical; i.e. in this position both grammatical (singular) and natural (plural) agreement work, as in English _The Government is/are gathering..._. I need to check what grammars say, but I'm reasonably sure they'll support it.



Huh, interesting, I didn't think it was common for numbers ending in 5-10 to take plural forms. It just doesn't sound good to me. Would you find _šest studenata su učili_ acceptable as well, then?


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## Duya

Yes, I find it acceptable. I think I'd prefer the singular, but it doesn't grate on my ears.


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## Vanja

Duya said:


> _Sve troje studenata uči dobro._
> _Sve troje studenata uče dobro._



Sv*o* troje studenata... Isn't it? I have never used _Sve_ in this example.

Svo troje studenata, sve tri studentkinje....or sva tri studenta.



			
				Anicetus said:
			
		

> So, it's _*svih* šest studenata dobro *uči*. And you'd say svih *je* šest studenata dobro *učilo*_



Yes, six students represent *the* unit/ sum.


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## Duya

Nope, _svo_ is not accepted in standard, at least not in Serbian. Personally, I think it's silly, as it's a long attested form (there's a famous quote from a Milan Rakić's poem _Mutno je nebo *svo*_), but that's the state of affairs.


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## Vanja

Well Duya - _Sve troje_ is completely silly to me! It's sound unnatural...I'm not sure what standards says, I have to check it out. _Svo_ in your example is because of the neuter _to nebo_, unlike_ Svo troje _which is plural. 

Well dear Duya, one guy claims the same like you at one forum, although even that is not a proof. And he said - not because of the grammar, but because of "the difficulty of pronouncing". (but *sve vreme*, true)

Google hints:
"sve troje" - 98 900
"svo troje" - *210 000

Kurir: *U sudaru poginula majka sa sv*o* troje dece....
*HBO Srbija: *Neočekivano, sv*o* troje se zaljubljuju....

And this guy is so cool - he discusses the logical aspect of our grammar _Sve vs. Svo_, you can read here



> Dakle, prema Klajnu:
> Sve brašno je pokislo. Brašno je sve užeglo. (Iako Vas niko neće razumeti šta ste hteli da kažete.)
> 
> A prema meni:
> Svo brašno je pokislo. Brašno je svo užeglo.
> 
> Pisci ne greše već Klajn! A vi birajte hoćete li nastavnike i Klajna ili pisce i mene!!!*
> *


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