# All dialects:  إذا ... بـ - lo and behold



## Ghabi

Hello everyone. How would you say the following sentence (from _1,001 Nights_) in your dialect?

فلما فرغ من أكل التمرة رمى النواة وإذا هو بعفريت طويل القامة وبيده سيف
I'm interested in how to express the blue part in different dialects. (I think we use _willa_ in Levant, but I'm not sure.)


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## WadiH

Traditionally:
والى ذاك العفريت ...
والى فيه ذاك العفريت

ولين ذاك العفريت
ولين فيه ذاك العفريت

إلاّ ويجيه (يطلع له) ذاك العفريت
(or ولاّ يجيه.  I think it works both ways(

I think young people nowadays in Riyadh will say:
وإلاّ يجيه (يطلع له) عفريت


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## Noon9

Wadi Hanifa said:


> Traditionally:
> 
> وإلاّ يجيه (يطلع له) ذاك العفريت


 
What Wadi said is correct and thats how we also say it in the UAE but the only difference is this:- يجيه  would be اييه (Iyyeh).


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## Ghabi

Thanks Wadi and Noon9. So وإلاّ is also used in other dialects.


Wadi Hanifa said:


> Traditionally:
> ولين ذاك العفريت
> ولين فيه ذاك العفريت


What's this لين?


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## Egyptlover

Hello!

In EA I think we say "بصّ لقى"


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## Ghabi

Egyptlover said:


> In EA I think we say "بصّ لقى"


Great to know that! So وإلاّ is not used in Egyptian?


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## Egyptlover

It's used, but not to mean "وإذا .... بـ"  It can be used to threat someone  (e.g. "الملف يكون عندي الصبح وإلا...")


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## Ghabi

Egyptlover said:


> It's used, but not to mean "وإذا .... بـ"  It can be used to threat someone  (e.g. "الملف يكون عندي الصبح وإلا...")


I see, thanks.


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## WadiH

Ghabi said:


> Thanks Wadi and Noon9. So وإلاّ is also used in other dialects.
> 
> What's this لين?



It's a contraction of إلى أنْ ("until"), e.g. امش قدام إلين تجيك الإشارة ("go straight until you reach the stoplight.")  It later produced the particle إلى/لى/إليا, which acquired the meaning "when" (لى راحوا طلعنا "when they go, we'll leave.") and the meaning of إذا:

لى خاب ظنّي بالرفيق الموالي، ما لي مشاريهٍ على نايد الناس
رحت لبيتهم ولينهم طالعين
رحت لبيتهم وإلى هم قد طلعوا (in MSA: ذهبت إلى بيتهم وإذا هم قد خرجوا)

Often, it will be pronounced with _imaala_ ("لي"), due to its origin in لين, I suppose.

It's a very useful particle to know when studying any Arabian dialect, since it traditionally appeared almost anywhere where you would find إذا in CA, in addition to its original meaning of "until," and I think it even has reflexes in Iraq.


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## Ghabi

Wadi Hanifa said:


> Traditionally:
> والى ذاك العفريت ...
> والى فيه ذاك العفريت
> 
> ولين ذاك العفريت
> ولين فيه ذاك العفريت
> 
> إلاّ ويجيه (يطلع له) ذاك العفريت
> (or ولاّ يجيه.  I think it works both ways)
> 
> I think young people nowadays in Riyadh will say:
> وإلاّ يجيه (يطلع له) عفريت


Can I also say ما درى الّى ويجيه ذاك العفريت?


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## Xence

The Algerian equivalent is almost FuS7a. Most people would use *فإذا به / بها* _fa idha bih(i) / biha_. For instance, the OP sentence would sound something like this:

بَعْدْما كْلا التمْرة، طَيّشْ العَلْفة... فَإذا به عفريت طويل هازّ سيف/سكين في يدو


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## WadiH

Ghabi said:


> Can I also say ما درى الّى ويجيه ذاك العفريت?



Of course!  But the spelling would be إلاّ not الّى (I don't know whether you were going for إلا or إلى, but fyi if you start your sentence with a negation you can't use إلى).


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## إسكندراني

another way to say it in Egyptian:
فلقى قدّامه عفريت
what's this business with لين ?! I'm a little confused
is it broadly used where one could use إلى أن?


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## WadiH

I know, I didn't do a good job explaining it.

Yes إلين can replace the MSA إلى أنْ because that's how it started out, but historically it expanded into other meanings as well (mainly إذا).  So, almost wherever you would use إذا in MSA, you can use إلى (or some variant thereof):

إذا قمت الصبح رحت للوزارة
إلى قمت الصبح رحت للوزارة

But you cannot use it to replace إذا الشرطية.


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## إسكندراني

that's interesting.. i'm sure you know the moroccan darija uses إلا to mean إذا including the شرطية sort!


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## WadiH

No, I don't!  I sadly know very little about Moroccan Arabic.  I'd be interested to see examples of this usage.


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## Xence

Wadi Hanifa said:
			
		

> So, almost wherever you would use إذا in MSA, you can use إلى (or some variant thereof) in most Arabian dialects



We also have this pronunciation shift in most Algerian dialects, i.e إلا (_ilaa_) instead of إذا .
But this has nothing to do withe the preposition إلى , of course.


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## WadiH

What makes you so sure?


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## Xence

Wadi,

Sorry, I am not sure to understand your question.


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## WadiH

My question is, why do you think it is simply a sound-shift and not some reflex of an older word?


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## Xence

Ah, okay !
This is simply because the two forms coexist and are used equally with the same meaning, i.e. إذا الشرطية .


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## WadiH

I see.  Thanks.


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## Xence

You're welcome, Wadi.


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## Goakarim

In tunisian arabic : 

وقت اللي كمّل كلى التمرة، طيّش النواه متاعها، ياخي ظهر له عفريت طويل شادد في يدّه سيف


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## Ghabi

Wadi Hanifa said:


> Of course!  But the spelling would be إلاّ not الّى (I don't know whether you were going for إلا or إلى, but fyi if you start your sentence with a negation you can't use إلى).


Oops, my typo. Do you also use يوم فطن والى? Is the same as the simple والى?


Goakarim said:


> In tunisian arabic :
> 
> وقت اللي كمّل كلى التمرة، طيّش النواه متاعها، ياخي ظهر له عفريت طويل شادد في يدّه سيف


I like this one. You pronounce it ya2akhi or yaakhi?


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## Razin'

Ghabi said:


> Goakarim said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In tunisian arabic :
> 
> وقت اللي كمّل كلى التمرة، طيّش النواه متاعها، ياخي ظهر له عفريت طويل شادد في يدّه سيف
> 
> 
> 
> I like this one. You pronounce it ya2akhi or yaakhi?
Click to expand...


Yaakhi..


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## WadiH

Ghabi said:


> Oops, my typo. Do you also use يوم فطن والى? Is the same as the simple والى?



Well I don't use it myself but it exists.  The difference between it and a simple والى is the same as the difference in MSA between ولمّا فطن وإذا and a simple وإذا.


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## Hemza

Wadi Hanifa said:


> It's a contraction of إلى أنْ ("until"), e.g. امش قدام إلين تجيك الإشارة ("go straight until you reach the stoplight.")  It later produced the particle إلى/لى/إليا, which acquired the meaning "when" (لى راحوا طلعنا "when they go, we'll leave.")



لين (or يلين) is still widely used in Morocco.



إسكندراني said:


> that's interesting.. i'm sure you know the moroccan darija uses إلا to mean إذا including the شرطية sort!



True


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## momai

Ghabi said:


> Hello everyone. How would you say the following sentence (from _1,001 Nights_) in your dialect?
> 
> فلما فرغ من أكل التمرة رمى النواة وإذا هو بعفريت طويل القامة وبيده سيف
> I'm interested in how to express the blue part in different dialects. (I think we use _willa_ in Levant, but I'm not sure.)


One way to translate it into Syrian would be:
هوي خلص من اكل التمرة، زتا للعجوة، فإز بيطلعلو عفريت قامتو طولة وبايدو (في) سيف.


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## djara

In Tunisian, we also say إذا بيه idhaa biih and some pronounce it لاذا بيه laadha biih. 
أحنا نعملو في قهوة إذا بيه المدير جا
We were having coffee and suddenly the manager appeared


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## tounsi51

djara said:


> In Tunisian, we also say إذا بيه idhaa biih and some pronounce it لاذا بيه laadha biih.
> أحنا نعملو في قهوة إذا بيه المدير جا
> We were having coffee and suddenly the manager appeared



Really? I've never heard it before.


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## djara

tounsi51 said:


> Really? I've never heard it before.


Maybe due to a generation gap!


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## I.K.S.

Hemza said:


> لين (or يلين) is still widely used in Morocco.


If I'm not mistaken this word is formed from; إلى+ أين... some people still pronounce it لاين ,which is the most closer to the original structure of the words, Ex: الظهر هذا وانت حتى لين غادي تبقى ناعس فالفراش!؟
i.e : الى متى؟


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## tounsi51

djara said:


> Maybe due to a generation gap!



Haha yeah maybe. Anyway I have also never lived in Tunisia so I am not familiar with expressions


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## Mahaodeh

tounsi51 said:


> Haha yeah maybe.


I think djara was being humorous, because while one generation might drop an expression, they still hear it because the generations are not segregated.


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## djara

Ghabi said:


> What's this لين?


In Tunisia, one city, Sfax, uses لين pronounced layn, to ask (rhetorical) why questions.
لين الخسارة؟
Why should you spend more than needed = You shouldn't spend more than needed.


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## Aloulu

tounsi51 said:


> Really? I've never heard it before.



Me neither. El Djem/Sousse area are my origins.



Hemza said:


> لين (or يلين) is still widely used in Morocco.



Tunisia as well. Widely widely used. We would say for example; "تمشي ديما طول لين يوصلك الضوء"


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## cherine

Interestingly, for me, the fus7a (or fus7a sounding) structure إذا بـ is used in EA, pronounced ezbi, and is invariable
أول ما أكل البَلَحة ورَمى النواية، إزبي يلاقي قدامه عفريت


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## elroy

Ghabi said:


> (I think we use _willa_ in Levant, but I'm not sure.)


  (in Palestinian at least)

See this other thread of yours.


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## Hemza

إتحادية قبائل الشاوية said:


> If I'm not mistaken this word is formed from; إلى+ أين... some people still pronounce it لاين ,which is the most closer to the original structure of the words, Ex: الظهر هذا وانت حتى لين غادي تبقى ناعس فالفراش!؟
> i.e : الى متى؟



You're absolutely right, I didn't write it correctly, it is لاين.


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## momai

elroy said:


> (in Palestinian at least)
> 
> See this other thread of yours.


After thinking about this sentence once again, I maybe have to confess that willa sounds more elleqount here than واذ and فاذ although they both exist in spoken Syrian nowadays.


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## I.K.S.

Hemza said:


> You're absolutely right, I didn't write it correctly, it is لاين.


لين also exists, it is a variant.


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