# عدم قدرة النساء حضور هذا الحفل تترتب عليه عواقب



## Manmoon

Hello Everybody,

Another question re subject/verb accordance in arabic. Is the following sentence correct? If not, what is the rule?

عدم حضور النساء هذا الحفل تترتب عليه عواقب

Many Thanks,

Manmoon


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## yasmeena

It sounds right to me : تترتب عواقب .


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## Outlandish

Yasmine, I guess it is يترتب عليه


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## Mahaodeh

No, I agree with Yasmine, عواقب is feminine and تترتب is referring to عواقب not to حضور.


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## Josh_

Yes, I agree with Yasmeena and Mahaodeh.  It is تترتب لأن فاعله عواقب.  الضمير المتصل (ه) بعلى يعود إلى حضور.ـ

I've been reading up on Arabic grammar (how Arabs treat the grammar of their language), so hopefully I explained that correctly.


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## Mahaodeh

Yes, you did Josh; I must say that your Arabic, whether collequal or fus7a, is quite impressive


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## Josh_

Thank you for the compliment.


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## be.010

Outlandish said:


> Yasmine, I guess it is يترتب عليه


 This one is OK, AT LEAST!
In Arabic grammar, when the gender of a subject is not (yet) determined, then it's probably correct to use either of the masculine or the feminine forms of the verb.
There is a complicated "rule" about it... I am just looking for a way to sum it up!
So in this example: عدم قدرة النساء على الحضور *يترتب* عليه is correct.

The Holy Quraan is full of examples on this case:


> جاءهم البينات





> فانظر كيف كان عاقبة المنذَرين


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## azeid

> جاءهم البينات


القاعدة النحوية تقول بجواز تذكير الفعل إذا كان الفاعل مؤنثاً غير أن كلمة البينات هنا ليست مؤنث حقيقى فيجوز تذكيرها و تأنيثها
و قد يكون الغرض من الإستخدام فى مثل هذه الحالات بلاغى و لمزيد من التفصيل يمكن فتح موضوع آخر أو الرجوع لكتابى 
1- لمسات بيانية فى نصوص من التنزيل
2- أسرار البيان فى التعبير القرآنى
الكتابان للدكتور فاضل للسامرائى
و بذلك فليس من الخطأ تذكير أو تأنيث "ترتب" ولكن الأشهر هو اتباع الفاعل و الله أعلم ​


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## Mahaodeh

OK, I take back what I said, it can surely be either feminine or masculine.


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## Outlandish

be.010 said:


> This one is OK, AT LEAST!
> In Arabic grammar, when the gender of a subject is not (yet) determined, then it's probably correct to use either of the masculine or the feminine forms of the verb.
> There is a complicated "rule" about it... I am just looking for a way to sum it up!
> So in this example: عدم قدرة النساء على الحضور *يترتب* عليه is correct.
> 
> The Holy Quraan is full of examples on this case:



That's true be.010.
You can say 
السرير يرقد عليه فتاه
when you reorder the sentence it should be
الفتاه ترقد على السرير


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## Manmoon

Eid Moubarak everybody!

Thank you for your contribution. To sum it up both يترتب and تترتب  are correct in this context?

Many Thanks

Manmoon


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## cherine

Yes, Manmoon. Both the masculine and the feminine form are correct and acceptable in this case.


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## Manmoon

Thanks a lot Cherine for clarifying!

Manmoon


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## psxws

My Arabic teacher gave me an example in which the verb came first in the masculine form, and somewhat later in the sentence the subject was revealed to be feminine. I asked him why there was no agreement and he said something about distance making it not so important. Is this kind of what's going on here?


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## Mahaodeh

Sort of, because the subject (or the object, whichever is the case) turned up later in the sentence, one can use either the feminine or the masculine at the beginning until the subject is revealed, then one must agree with its gender.


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## Outlandish

My idea is that we "have to" use the masculine form of the verb as long as the gender of the subject is not yet determined.

قد جاءكم بصائر من ربكم فمن ابصر فلنفسه ومن عمي فعليها وما انا عليكم بحفيظ
Al-An'am 104
 فقد جاءكم بينة من ربكم وهدى ورحمة
Al-An'am 157
يا ايها الذين امنوا اذا جاءكم المؤمنات مهاجرات فامتحنوهن الله اعلم بايمانهن
Al-Mumtahana 10


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## Mahaodeh

I meant that, but when I re-read my post, I suppose I was not clear .


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## azeid

Outlandish said:


> My idea is that we "have to" use the masculine form of the verb as long as the gender of the subject is not yet determined.
> 
> قد جاءكم بصائر من ربكم فمن ابصر فلنفسه ومن عمي فعليها وما انا عليكم بحفيظ
> Al-An'am 104
> فقد جاءكم بينة من ربكم وهدى ورحمة
> Al-An'am 157
> يا ايها الذين امنوا اذا جاءكم المؤمنات مهاجرات فامتحنوهن الله اعلم بايمانهن
> Al-Mumtahana 10


I disagree, we don't "have to" use it but it depends on the context.
* 
وَإِلَى مَدْيَنَ أَخَاهُمْ شُعَيْبًا قَالَ يَا قَوْمِ اعْبُدُوا اللَّهَ مَا لَكُمْ مِنْ إِلَهٍ غَيْرُهُ قَدْ جَاءَتْكُمْ بَيِّنَةٌ مِنْ رَبِّكُمْ فَأَوْفُوا الْكَيْلَ وَالْمِيزَانَ وَلَا تَبْخَسُوا النَّاسَ أَشْيَاءَهُمْ وَلَا تُفْسِدُوا فِي الْأَرْضِ بَعْدَ إِصْلَاحِهَا ذَلِكُمْ خَيْرٌ **لَكُمْ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ مُؤْمِنِينَ*
​الأعراف 85

*فَإِنْ زَلَلْتُمْ مِنْ بَعْدِ مَا جَاءَتْكُمُ الْبَيِّنَاتُ فَاعْلَمُوا أَنَّ اللَّهَ عَزِيزٌ حَكِيمٌ *​ البقرة 209
​*فلما رأى الشمس بازغة قال هذا ربي
*الأنعام 78

​


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## Outlandish

Azeid,
As for the first verse, you wrote the verse number incorrectly so I wasn't able to check it.
The last verse is not relevant to our discussion.
As for the the verse in the middle, البينات is feminine because it is frequently used in the Quranic context and the listener is familiar with the expression جائتكم البينات , جائتهم اية . These words are understood and expected in this context.
As to my knowledge, in case the yet-to-come subject is totally unexpected and its usage in a context is brand new, the masculine verb form should be used.


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## Mahaodeh

I think what he means by 'have to' (or at least what I understood) is that you can't use the feminine first until reveal that it's masculine, only the other way round works; not that you can't use both as feminine or both as masculine from the start.


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## azeid

Outlandish said:


> Azeid,
> As for the first verse, you wrote the verse number incorrectly so I wasn't able to check it.
> The last verse is not relevant to our discussion.
> As for the the verse in the middle, البينات is feminine because it is frequently used in the Quranic context and the listener is familiar with the expression جائتكم البينات , جائتهم اية . These words are understood and expected in this context.
> As to my knowledge, in case the yet-to-come subject is totally unexpected and its usage in a context is brand new, the masculine verb form should be used.


I have checked the first verse number again and it is still الأعراف 85.
We are not talking here about what it is expected and well known so you can see in the last verse that the Sun is Feminine and becomes in the beginning of the verse but the demonstrative pronoun after it is masculine so it depends on the context.



Mahaodeh said:


> I think what he means by 'have to' (or at least what I understood) is that you can't use the feminine first until reveal that it's masculine, only the other way round works; not that you can't use both as feminine or both as masculine from the start.


Ok, It isn't obligatory to use the masculine in the beginning of a phrase if you are not sure about the gender but since the Arabs consider the masculine is the origin, it is preferred to use the masculine and more than that
من كتاب المصباح المنير فى غريب الشرح الكبير


> و العرب تجترئ على تذكير المؤنث إذا لم يكن فيه علامة تأنيث و قام مقامه لفظ مذكر حكاه ابن السكيت و ابن الأنباري و حكى الأزهري قريبا من ذلك


 
I just wanted to say that it isn't obligatory.


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## cherine

I agree with Azeid that it isn't obligatory. This is why both masculine and feminine are correct and commonly used in such structures. Even if the masculine is preferred when we don't know the gender of the subject yet to come, it doesn't mean that using the feminine is wrong.


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## Manmoon

Thanks a lot for your contributions colleagues.  Very helpful. What I understood is that is usually the verb is in masculine if the gender of the subject is not revealed but also the feminine form 
is correct?

Manmoon


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## be.010

Manmoon said:


> Thanks a lot for your contributions colleagues. Very helpful. What I understood is that is usually the verb is in masculine if the gender of the subject is not revealed but also the feminine form
> is correct?
> 
> Manmoon


Yes
I've found a really interesting word document *(here)* about the use of feminine and masculine in Arabic. I think it's worth checking for anyone who has questions about this subject.
To put it all in one sentence, it sounds like the places where using the feminine verb is obligatory are very limited; the most significant one is when the subject is مؤنث حقيقي (i.e. a female human or animal) AND directly follows the verb.
I hope this could be of any help...
Best regards...


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## Outlandish

And I started on checking....
I found very interesting site discussing this
http://majles.alukah.net/showthread.php?t=31653
also
http://www.reefnet.gov.sy/education/kafaf/Bohoth/Fael.htm

In the first site they introduced another criteria for deciding what to use (masculine or feminine) with the verb if the subject is feminine....it's number or muchness. If the verb refers to a thing large in number or grave in importance, the feminine verb form is used. If the verb points to fewness, the masculine form is used.
In the site we come to know that the use of the masculine is the original rule. I can't see that the use of the feminine is correct at all, but according to the available information which allow it, I guess using it should be cautiously done.
In the instance of the topic under discussion I still find the masculine form more correct and more appealing. But I'm not satisfied with this, somehow, indecisive grammatical vision. I already have some new observations and you might expect me to come back to this thread with new findings sometime in the future. 
If anybody finds new light in the two sites or elsewhere, let him share his discovery with us.


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## Manmoon

Thanks a lot Outlandish and be.010!  I will check the documents you referred to.  I agree that the masculine form in the example quoted is more acceptable (for me).

Manmoon


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