# dobře zachovalým mladencem panem / zachovalou pannou



## Kalžběta

I'm working on a transcription of a Czech marriage contract from 1794. Here is the paragraph:


Ve jménu nejsvětěšjí  trojice, Amen.
Dnes níže psaného dne a roku staly se smlouvy svatební stalé, a v ničemž neporušitedelné, mezi dobře zachovalým mládencem panem Francem Michnou vlastním synem P: France Michny městianína Frankštadseho
jakožto ženichem strany jednej, a dobře zachoval[o]u pann[o]u Johann[o]u, vlastni dcer[o]u Pana Jozefa Šustaly Frankštadsským mandliřem, jakožto nevěstou strany druhé, kteréžto u přítomnosti panův rodičí, a schválně k tomu dožadaných P: svědkův nasledujicím zpzsobem umluvené a zavřené byly, totiž:

(We put the [o] in brackets because it is standardized spelling today, but a local Moravian dialect that is probably still understood today without it, and it is not written explicitly in the original text.)

My question has to do with the phrase: "dobře zachovalým mladencem panem"/"dobře zachovalou pannou"

Literally "dobře zachovalým" is "well preserved."

mladencem is "lad"

pannou is "virgin" - for a girl, panna would translate to "maiden"

If she is a dobře zachovalou pannou, and he is a dobře zachovalým mladencem panem, is panem the male version of pannou?

"the well preserved young virgin lad Franz Michna"

"the well preserved virgin maiden Johanna" - though...doesn't the word "maiden" imply virginity already? Do we really have to include the word virgin in the translation? What would be the most accurate way to write this?

Here's what I want to know. I understand that this is probably more of just a phrase, and though it probably does shed some light onto these ancestors' characters, it probably doesn't have significant deeper meaning.

But what I am interested in understanding is this: how the way that language reflects this concept relates to how the culture views this concept. The concept: the transition from childhood to adulthood, innocence to knowledge, symbolized in the act of transitioning from virginity to sexual activity.

I know for sure that in Arabic, the word "bint" بنت for daughter/girl definitely implies virginity. You simply cannot be a "bint" if you are married. Though you can say still be a "bint" in relationship to someone else after you are married, like, "my married daughter," (bintee metjoweza)  or, "my daughter" (bintee), but you cannot ever be called simply a "bint" again.

In English, the word "maiden" definitely implies virginity, but the word "lad" definitely does not. "Lad" is neutral. Maybe this reveals a double standard in my language/culture, that what makes a man "young/innocent" is not the same as what makes a woman "young/innocent". I don't know. When I hear the word "lad", honestly, I think of a very young boy aged around ~10. When I think of "maiden" I think of virgin, naive Rapunzel with her long blond hair sitting in her tower, shut away from the world.

My understanding/perception is that in Jordanian culture at least (where I lived for 6 months with a wonderful Muslim family when I was 21), if you are a girl and you are raped, you will no longer be considered a virgin. I think that concept is ambiguous in English because we simply never use the word "maiden" ever. Or "virgin" for that matter - IMO it's kind of a squeamish word that you only ever use in a totally non-sexual context to jokingly mean "novice" - "I'm a virgin saxaphone player." And if people use that word, it usually seems to be because they like to make other people feel uncomfortable, either because of their over-interestedness in the sexual activity of others or in displaying their own for the world to recognize. I dunno. My two thoughts.

I apologize for this long post. It's not because I want you to feel squeamish. It's because I'm really interested in the concept/theory of language reflecting cultural beliefs and attitudes.

And also, you know, because I want to have a good translation. I'm well aware that "well preserved" is sort of a silly translation in English that you wouldn't see except maybe if you go back much further than 1794, but I'm going to keep it because I think it is more accurate to the original text, unless there are other suggestions.


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## Kalžběta

My husband says that he thinks the word "maiden" implies "implied virginity."


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## Mori.cze

Hi,
first, there is a bit of confusion: (using contemporary ortography) it should read "dobře zachovalým mládencem*,* panem (Francem Michnou)" and translate "well preserved lad, _Mr_. Franz Michna". "Pan" is simply a title, Mister. Admittedly I have no deep knowledge of the language of the era, but I am quite sure there is no virginity implied (though I tend to understand some moral standards from the phrase "dobře zachovalý").
"Panna" in this time and context would definitely not translate virgin, though you are obviously right and the virginity is indeed implied. The word to be used in such context today would be "slečna", _Miss_, but maybe _maiden_ is a good choice, I am far from sure about English connotations. I believe that the word "panna" is just a politeness and would get used even if the bride was already visibly pregnant.


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## Kalžběta

Mori.cze said:


> Hi,
> first, there is a bit of confusion: (using contemporary ortography) it should read "dobře zachovalým mládencem*,* panem (Francem Michnou)" and translate "well preserved lad, _Mr_. Franz Michna". "Pan" is simply a title, Mister.



I know that pan is "Mr." but in this context I am unsure because notice how its case ending matches that of "mládencem", and in this record there is definitely no comma, and it is perhaps even possible that it was spelled "pannem" with two n's. Plus, the fact that it mirrors the "pannou" makes me wonder, also.


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## Mori.cze

The male version of "panna" is "panic". Both are used more-or-less only literally today (would you believe that (s)he is 23 and still a virgin?)*, but historically "panna" was used to address/refer to an unmarried woman, which (I am quite sure) is taking place here.

The necessary virginity roots deep in the Christian history of Europe
I have just found this article, confirming that "panna" used to be simply an unmarried woman, no need to check her virginity

*OK, "panna" is a constellation/zodiac sign as well and "stará panna" is a "spinster", implying some lack of sexual experience, but not necessarily strict virginity.


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## Mori.cze

As for the cases, some of them I find a bit old fashioned or even weird, but specifically "(smlouva mezi) zachovalým mládencem, panem Michnou" is absolutely correct and idiomatic (case-wise at least, "mládenec" itself is pretty archaic).

The ortographic rules are generally newer, so I do not believe there is any implication of missing or redundant commas or doubled n or such


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## Kalžběta

Well you are certainly right about there not being standardized spelling and punctuation yet. 

Do these words "pan/panna" have the same etymology?


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## Kalžběta

So here's the question. Does the word panna imply only that she is single *at present*, or that she has never before been married (whatever her actual sexual experience may be)?


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## Mori.cze

My etymological dictionary is some 1000 km away:-(
I am convinced that they do; in the article I've linked above they say so, too; apparently all the words ("pán/paní/panna/panic") are quite old, of unknown origin (maybe _paní_ from India or _pán_ from something indo-iranian)... Originally they were used to address nobility only, with time got more and more general. "Pan" with short vowel is a much newer variation.

_Panna_: nowadays simply virgin, back then unmarried girl (who was expected to be a virgin due to Christian morality). It would definitely not be used to refer to a young widow or say an unmarried mother; the first would be "paní", the second... well, she would definitely be in a lot of trouble back then, probably would be called names instead of any politeness whatsoever... Funny, if she manages to get married and gives birth just few month afterwards, she is in no trouble at all.


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## Kalžběta

I apologize for only skimming the article at first; I see there are lots of answers in it, if I just look! (That was the plan but toddlers and laundry got in the way). I'll look at it again for sure 

[QUOTE=" the second... well, she would definitely be in a lot of trouble back then, probably would be called names instead of any politeness whatsoever... Funny, if she manages to get married and gives birth just few month afterwards, she is in no trouble at all.[/QUOTE]

...well yes, but then again maybe sometimes no. For example, for a while in the 19th century, Czechs in the military were not allowed to be married before they retired. So, many of them had these "common law" marriages (loyalty to one person for many years) and officially married later. 

And of course, if you were a Czech Jew, you would have had to wait to inherit/purchase/bribe your way into a familianten number until 1848. How many people do you suppose were "married" but not MARRIED?


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## werrr

You are way off with the virginity and I guess you misunderstand the adjective "zachovalý" as well.

"Zachovalý" was a customary honorificum of that era reffering to spotless social reputation. It had nothing to do with physical shape nor with sexual experience. Possible translation could be: upright, law-abiding, reputable, irreproachable, unblemished...

"Mládenec" was an unmarried man and "panna" was a women not yet married. 

Unlike "mládenec", "panna" was also the customary way to address an unmarried woman. Men were addressed with "pan" regardless of their marital status and married women were addressed with "paní".

So, possible translations of your phrases:

dobře zachovalý mládenec pan Franc Michna = reputable bachelor Mr. Franc Michna
dobře zachovalá panna Johanna = upright and law-abiding maid Johanna​


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## Kalžběta

What I understand from your response is that the implied meaning is the same as in English, where, like my husband said: "implied "implied virginity."" 

It does not mean this explicitly. But of course, what does it *actually mean* in 18th century česko to be a law-abiding/respectable/honorable person? It probably actually does infer some level of religious devotion/piety, which of course infers abstinence before marriage. 

But the connotation is exactly what I wanted to know, and I greatly appreciate your help. Thank you.

One nitpick:
I wouldn't translate it as "maid" but rather "maiden"


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