# إنها أشبه بشاب غني أصيب بمرض أعاقه بعد أن كان قويًا متعافيًا



## jack_1313

Hi guys,

I'm having a lot of trouble understanding the simile that an author uses to describe the situation in Iraq in relation to America's spying activities. The following section discusses the scenario in which Maliki wants to do something about America's spying on Iraq.

 ما هي اللغة التي سيتحدث بها المالكي ؟ هل سيعلن ذلك بوسائل الاعلام ويظهر كما ظهرت ميركل ويقول لاوباما ماذا تفعلون في العراق ؟ ام سيكتفي بإشعار السفارة الامريكية بذلك ولا ينتظر الرد ؟ نعم انها الحقيقة المرة التي نحسها ونراها ولا نستطيع ان نعترف او نهمس في اذان بعضنا ولا نستطيع ان  نغير من الحقيقة شيء . انها اشبه بشاب غني اصيب  بمرض اعاقه بعد ان كان قويا متعافياٌ
_With what language would Maliki speak? Would he announce it via the media and appear publicly, as Merkel did, saying to Obama “what are you doing in Iraq?” Or would he be satisfied by notifying the American embassy of it and not waiting for a response? Yes, that is the bitter reality that we sense and see but can’t acknowledge, whisper in each other’s ear, or change in any way. It is like a rich young man afflicted with a disease that debilitates him after he was strong and recovering.

_This is the article.

The placement of متعاف makes me believe the young man was rich, then got sick, then began recovering, then was debilitated by the disease. However, I'm quite unable to see how this relates to what the author has previously said about the reality in Iraq.

Any help is, as always, much appreciated


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## barkoosh

Here متعافياً means "healthy".


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## Arabic_Police_999

انها اشبه بشاب غني اصيب بمرض اعاقه بعد ان كان قويا متعافياٌ
غني means something/someone has whats enough so it/he doesnt need someone or something, 
so it could mean rich but not in that context
he has whats enough of health (a healthy person doesn't need someone to take care of him)


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## cherine

It is true that غني also has the meaning of not needing anything or anyone, but I think the writer did intend the meaning of rich. "It's like a young man who was once rich and healthy, but got afflicted with a disease that debilitated him".

I don't see a relation between being rich and being healthy, but maybe the image of a young man who's both rich and healthy is more effective, in the writer's mind, or maybe the rest of the text talks about the young man loosing his wealth as well.

P.S. I checked the text and, no, he doesn't add to this. So maybe he just mis-chose his words.


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## Arabic_Police_999

cherine said:


> It is true that غني also has the meaning of not needing anything or anyone, but I think the writer did intend the meaning of rich. "It's like a young man who was once rich and healthy, but got afflicted with a disease that debilitated him".
> 
> I don't see a relation between being rich and being healthy, but maybe the image of a young man who's both rich and healthy is more effective, in the writer's mind, or maybe the rest of the text talks about the young man loosing his wealth as well.
> 
> P.S. I checked the text and, no, he doesn't add to this. So maybe he just mis-chose his words.


 hmm, I disagree with you if the writer meant rich, then it doesn't make sense, a rich a person doesn't mean a healthy and strong person

it will be more logical to me, that if he had meant *rich*(not in need of something/someone, as a synonyms for *ثري *) then he would have said *poor *فقير afterwards

translating it to *rich *in English make another if not destroying the meaning, *independent *seems to be a better translation


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## cherine

Arabic_Police_999 said:


> hmm, I disagree with you if the writer meant rich, then it doesn't make sense, a rich a person doesn't mean a healthy and strong person


No, actually you agree with me: it does not make sense.  It's like a صورة مبتورة, as if the writer was about to complete the sentence كان غنيًا (ثريًا) ثم افتقر، وكان متعافيًا وصار فقيرًا , but he stopped at the health-related part.


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## Tracer

Although somewhat of a stretch, I would translate غني here as "vigorous" and my sentence would appear as:

*It’s like a vigorous young man, strong and healthy, (suddenly) afflicted with a debilitating disease. 

*One could use "robust" instead of "vigorous",  although the latter lends a better cadence to the sentence.

However:  I agree with Jack_1313:  

Regardless of how the sentence is translated, as a simile in English it falls flat on its face.  Comparing Iraq with a sick youth that stands weak and exposed sounds, in English, somewhat infantile and doesn't come across realistically at all.  For a "definitive" translation of this passage, one would have to 1. find another simile that would go well in English or, most likely 2. simply disregard the Arabic original and not use anything at all.


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## jack_1313

Thanks for the really interesting discussion!

I agree with Tracer in that it's a quite a bizarre and obscure simile in English. At first, I couldn't even see the connection to what the author had been discussing. But here's how I have come to understand it: everyone in Iraq knows that America is spying on the country, but nobody can say anything about it or change the situation. (The author had previously compared this to the situation in Europe and other places, where politicians are publicly objecting to the spying.) This "reality" is similar to the sick young man situation because the people around can't acknowledge his illness and downfall (presumably because it would be quite rude?).

Tracer suggested replacing it with another simile because the simile sound immature. That leads to the question, does it sound immature in Arabic? My objective is, of course, not to repair the source text, but to represent it faithfully in English, preserving things like tone and potential ambiguities.


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## cherine

The simile in itself doesn't sound immature, not to me anyway. But the problem with it is that it isn't clear, is incomplete, and doesn't seem to make sense in its context. And for this, I think that Tracer's suggestion to drop it is a sensible solution.


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## suma

cherine said:


> The simile in itself doesn't sound immature, not to me anyway. But the problem with it is that it isn't clear, is incomplete, and doesn't seem to make sense in its context. And for this, I think that Tracer's suggestion to drop it is a sensible solution.



This brings up another discussion.
When we as translators debate or wrestle over the best fitting translation, where perhaps the given text was poorly written, or ambiguous itself.
I guess what I'm asking is when/how to decide if you are correctly understanding the text versus concluding that the text was poorly composed and needs correcting before an effective translation can be offered?


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## Tracer

Ignore or change the simile

Cherine states that the “simile……doesn’t seem to make sense in the context.” Jack and I agree that the similie simply doesn’t “work” when translated into English.  

Conclusion?  The author is wrong and we are right.  The offending passage doesn’t fit neither in Arabic nor English.

I suggested we could simply ignore it and not translate it (I think we could get away with it here).  Cherine concurs wtih this action as a possible solution.  Jack appears not to want to perform this radical linguistic surgery because he does not “want to repair the source text, but to represent it faithfully in English….”.

@ Jack:  if you agree both the Arabic and English similes are misplaced here and would make for pretty awful reading by your (English) reading public, another solution is not to use a simile at all and instead represent it by saying something like this:

_“……Yes, that is the bitter reality that we sense and see but can’t acknowledge, whisper in each other’s ear, or change in any way. *Because the fact is Iraq, once strong and vigorous, dares not dispute nor stand up for itself, despite having been “liberated”.  
*_
I think that could be considered a “faithful” English rendition of what the author means in his simile without actually using a corresponding English simile but at the same time not ignoring it altogether.


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## barkoosh

I think this is a good simile to describe a state of utter helplessness. Before explaining why, allow me to suggest a different rendering of the preceding sentence:
انها الحقيقة المرة التي نحسها ونراها ولا نستطيع ان نعترف [بها] او نهمس في آذان بعضنا ولا نستطيع ان نغير من الحقيقة شيء
"that is the bitter reality that we sense and see but can't acknowledge publicly; that we whisper in each other's ear but know that we can't change in any way."

Now, to illustrate this helplessness, the writer uses the case of a young, rich, able-bodied person. He's young: vigorous and energetic, has the strength to do whatever he wants. He's rich: has the means to do whatever he wants. But then he becomes incapacitated, maybe bed-ridden or confined to a wheelchair, due to a certain illness. His youthfulness and wealth are doing no good to him. He can't do whatever he wants anymore. He's helpless now.

The Iraqi people are as helpless as that guy in the face of the US might.


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## barkoosh

I have my doubts now about my alternative rendering of the sentence, which is still ambiguous because it feels that something is missing.


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## Bakr

في نظري لم يكن التشبيه موفقا، ولكن كل هذه المقالات السياسية في الانترنيت ليست بقيمة المقالات المكتوبة في الصحف الرزينة المطبوعة


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## cherine

أظن أننا جميعًا نتفق على أن هذا التشبيه يبدو ناقصًا، لذلك اقترحت إما إسقاط الجزء الخاص بالثراء، أو إسقاط التشبيه كله من الترجمة، وإن كنتُ عادةً أفضِّل الحلول الوسط.
وكلنا نتفق أيضًا على انحدار مستوى الصحافة، مما يضع صعوبات أمام المترجمين والقُرّاء.


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## jack_1313

Hi guys, thanks so much with your help on this. My apologies for taking a while to respond.



			
				barkoosh said:
			
		

> I think this is a good simile to describe a state of utter helplessness. Before explaining why, allow me to suggest a different rendering of the preceding sentence:
> انها الحقيقة المرة التي نحسها ونراها ولا نستطيع ان نعترف [بها] او نهمس في آذان بعضنا ولا نستطيع ان نغير من الحقيقة شيء
> "that is the bitter reality that we sense and see but can't acknowledge publicly; that we whisper in each other's ear but know that we can't change in any way."



Essentially, you have read the sentence as [انها الحقيقة المرة التي [نحسها ونراها ولا نستطيع ان نعترف] او [نهمس في آذان بعضنا ولا نستطيع ان نغير من الحقيقة شيء, whereas I originally read it as انها الحقيقة المرة التي نحسها ونراها ولا نستطيع ان [نعترف او نهمس في آذان بعضنا] ولا نستطيع ان نغير من الحقيقة شيء. I concur with your reading here and changed my translation accordingly. 



			
				cherine said:
			
		

> أظن أننا جميعًا نتفق على أن هذا التشبيه يبدو ناقصًا، لذلك اقترحت إما إسقاط الجزء الخاص بالثراء، أو إسقاط التشبيه كله من الترجمة​



Here, Tracer summed up my position:


			
				Tracer said:
			
		

> I suggested we could simply ignore it and not translate it (I think we could get away with it here). Cherine concurs wtih this action as a possible solution. Jack appears not to want to perform this radical linguistic surgery because he does not “want to repair the source text, but to represent it faithfully in English….”.




Firstly, let me point out that I am not formally trained in the field of translation. That is to say, my understanding of the theory and principals translation comes from my own reading into the matter, not years of formal instruction.

Nevertheless, my goal is, as stated, to represent the text faithfully in the target language. In some cases, I will change a simile or metaphor. For example, if a metaphor is clear in Arabic but unclear in English, I might change it. Or if there is an idiomatic dimension to metaphor, I will look for an equivalent idiom in English or, as a last resort  replace the idiom with a literal rendition of the author's meaning.

In this case, there doesn't appear to be an idiomatic dimension and the simile is a little bit unclear or incomplete in both English and Arabic. Thus, I'm not comfortable with replacing it. Its incompleteness or opaqueness is inherent in the original text - for me, changing it would mean that I'm representing the text as something that it isn't. Without access to the author himself, I feel that the incompleteness or ambiguity should itself be translated.

I find this especially true in this case, because I think there are two ways to understand this metaphor. The first has been put forth by several persons in this thread - the Iraqi people have become weak because of the US disease. The other was the one I put forth - Maliki/the people can't acknowledge America's spying in Iraq just like the can't talk to the young man about how far he has fallen because it would be rude to point out. Without total confidence in one interpretation or the other, I can't opt for one meaning and must instead allow the readers to interpret it themselves.

Of course, there are situations where I wouldn't reproduce problems in the original text in the English rendition. Spelling errors, for example, I will not reproduce. But if such errors cast any doubt over meaning, I will at least make a note of this in the final translation.

My perspective on this matter may come from my background as a student of history - I wouldn't dream about omitting or changing things from a historical document simply because the meaning seems incomplete. In any case, I would quite like to look into these sorts of problems and develop my understanding of how to best deal with them.

Here is the final rendition that I used:



> With what language would al-Maliki speak? Would he announce it via the media and appear publicly, as Merkel did, saying to Obama, “What are you doing in Iraq?” Or would he be satisfied by notifying the American embassy and not waiting for a response? Yes, that is the bitter reality that we sense and see but can’t acknowledge, that we whisper in each other’s ear but cannot change in any way. It's like a young man who was once healthy and well, but has been afflicted with a disease that has debilitated him.


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## Bakr

نعم انها الحقيقة المرة التي نحسها ونراها ولا نستطيع ان نعترف او نهمس في اذان [بعضنا البعض بها] ولا نستطيع ان نغير [منها] شيئا. انها [إنه، وتعود على 
العراق الغني بالبترول] اشبه بشاب غني اصيب بمرض اعاقه بعد ان كان قويا متعافي


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