# 在...里 / 里面 / 中



## kyrintethron

I've been getting to know Chinese prepositions, and I feel the need to address the synonymous 里, 里面, and 中, when used with 在. I understand that these all essentially mean the same thing (please correct me if I'm wrong):

猫在箱子里。
猫在箱子里面。
猫在箱子中。

What I'm wondering is when would you use each of these (as a preposition with 在) in a sentence where you wouldn't use the others? I've searched high and low for the difference between them, but I think you all are my only hope.

谢谢你们!
-K


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## Skatinginbc

kyrintethron said:


> 猫在箱子里。猫在箱子里面。猫在箱子中...when would you use each of these (as a preposition with 在) in a sentence where you wouldn't use the others?


It is a question of style.  In formal or literary writing, I would write 猫在箱中 or 猫在箱内.  In daily conversation, I would say 猫在箱子里面.  To me, the degree of formality: 猫在箱子里面 < 猫在箱子里 < 猫在箱里/猫在箱子中  < 猫在箱中/猫在箱内.


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## kyrintethron

That is very interesting, and I appreciate your answer, as I'm sure I wouldn't have been able to find this information anywhere else (except for perhaps in a thick linguistics book hidden deep within the local library, lol). Anyway, I noticed that the more syllables a word has, the less formal it is: 里面 vs 里; 箱子 vs 箱; and in another thread, I learned that 见个面 is more casual than 见面. Is this a reliable observation? For instance, am I right in assuming something like this: 男孩子 < 那孩儿 < 男孩?

Also, I noticed that "猫在箱里面" was not mentioned. Is this sentence possible? or does the lack of balance offend the ears?

-K


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## Skatinginbc

kyrintethron said:


> the more syllables a word has, the less formal it is...Is this a reliable observation?


Yes.  You can safely take that as a rule of thumb although there might be exceptions (I cannot think of any right off the top of my head).  


kyrintethron said:


> am I right in assuming something like this: 男孩子 < 那孩儿 < 男孩?


Yes, 男孩子 < 男孩, but 那孩儿 = "that child" (gender unknown).  


kyrintethron said:


> I noticed that "猫在箱里面" was not mentioned. Is this sentence possible? or does the lack of balance offend the ears?


Yes.  It is possible.  And it indeed lacks balance so that it sounds slightly awkward to my ears (I only speak for myself).  Other people may think otherwise.  It is a matter of personal preference, I guess.


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## kyrintethron

> kyrintethron said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the more syllables a word has, the less formal it is...Is this a reliable observation?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. You can safely take that as a rule of thumb although there might be exceptions (*I cannot think of any* right off the top of my head).
Click to expand...


On my other thread (http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2719133), stellari indicates that, to him, 缓慢 is a two-syllable, formal-sounding way of saying 慢. Do you agree with this assessment?




> Yes, 男孩子 < 男孩, but 那孩儿 = "that child" (gender unknown).



Oops, dumb mistake. I meant 男孩子 < *男*孩儿 < 男孩. Is this assessment correct?




> kyrintethron said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I noticed that "猫在箱里面" was not mentioned. Is this sentence possible? or does the lack of balance offend the ears?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. It is possible. And it indeed lacks balance so that it sounds slightly awkward to my ears (I only speak for myself). Other people may think otherwise. It is a matter of personal preference, I guess.
Click to expand...


Argh, the perils of learning a language spoken by so many people, lol. Anyway, if you were to use a phrase like 在箱里面 (interestingly, my computer will not even suggest 箱 on its own when I type that sentence; I have to type 箱子 then delete the 子, which I think lends a lot of weight to your stance against this construction), would you put it at the same casualness level as 在箱子里?

谢谢,
-K


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## Skatinginbc

kyrintethron said:


> On my other thread (http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2719133),  stellari indicates that, to him, 缓慢 is a two-syllable, formal-sounding  way of saying 慢. Do you agree with this assessment?


I think  what stellari tried to say is: 慢 is a common morpheme, which can be used  in a wide variety of contexts, including casual speech.  缓慢 is usually  associated with formal speech or writing.  进展缓慢 sounds more formal than  进展慢 due to parallelism: 进展(two syllables)缓慢(two syllables) ==>  balanced.  进展(two syllables)慢(one syllable) ==> unbalanced, therefore  "casual-sounding" as if not having put too much thought in word  choice.  However, 慢行 "walking slowly" is as formal as, if not more so than, 缓慢行走 "walking slowly".  


kyrintethron said:


> 男孩子 < *男*孩儿 < 男孩. Is this assessment correct?


If they all mean "boy" (not "baby son") where 子 and 儿 carry no actual meaning. then 男孩子/*男*孩儿 < 男孩 (It reflects only my opinion.  Other people may rank them differently).   


kyrintethron said:


> Anyway, if you were to use a phrase like  在箱里面, would you put it at the same casualness level as 在箱子里?


Let me first explain why I think 在箱里面 is unbalanced.  Say, if you are going to western China  中国西部 ("the  west side of China") but allowed to text only one word to your friends  who have no slightest idea where in the world you are heading, which  word will you pick: 中国 or 西部?  I will text 中国, which at least will give them some idea.  西部 alone says little--It could mean 美国西部, 法国西部, or even 地球西部 and lead to a wild goose chase should they decide to find you.   Likewise, if you are looking for your cat but have no slightest idea where it  could be, which single-word information is most helpful: "box" or  "inside"?  I will say "box".  It is like 电视机 "television set" where 电视 carries more information weight than 机.   Since "box" is more important than "inside", the need to make "box"  clearer is greater.  So the syllable number for "box" should be no less  than the one for "inside".  箱(one syllable)里面(two syllables) is therefore unbalanced in my mind.  在箱里面 sounds like something casually burst out of one's mouth without too much thought in it.  To me, 猫在箱里面 < 猫在箱子里.  Of course, if "box" is old information and you want to emphasize "inside", that would be a different story.


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## kyrintethron

> I think what stellari tried to say is: 慢 is a common morpheme, which can be used in a wide variety of contexts, including casual speech. 缓慢 is usually associated with formal speech or writing. 进展缓慢 sounds more formal than 进展慢 due to parallelism: 进展(two syllables)缓慢(two syllables) ==> balanced. 进展(two syllables)慢(one syllable) ==> unbalanced, therefore "casual-sounding" as if not having put too much thought in word choice. However, 慢行 "walking slowly" is as formal as, if not more so than, 缓慢行走 "walking slowly".



This makes a lot of sense to me, and I like your argument about "thoughtfulness" when determining which words to say. I find this virtue of balancing words intriguing, and look forward to experimenting with it as I continue to learn.

Thanks for all of your insights and advice.

-K


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## BODYholic

kyrintethron said:


> 猫*在*箱子里。
> 猫在箱子*里面*。


The emphasis is slightly different in those 2 sentences. I reckon it is very much the same in English,
1. The cat is in the box.
2. The cat is inside the box.



kyrintethron said:


> Also, I noticed that "猫在箱里面" was not mentioned. Is this sentence possible? or does the lack of balance offend the ears?


No, it just sounds a tad unpolished/informal but native speakers do say it. For parallelism, you may simply say "在箱里" when someone demands the whereabouts of the cat.


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## kyrintethron

> kyrintethron said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 猫*在*箱子里。猫在箱子*里面*。
> 
> 
> 
> The emphasis is slightly different in those 2 sentences. I reckon it is very much the same in English,
> 1. The cat is in the box.
> 2. The cat is inside the box.
Click to expand...


Well this was kind of my point in making the thread. In English, those two sentences have almost no discernible difference in meaning. I started a thread in the English language forum to address this, and to see if anyone could come up with instances where "inside" would be used instead of "in" (you can read it here for more detail if you're interested: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2718622).

Anyway, the reason I started that thread was because I couldn't think of any examples that would show the difference. And the conclusion we basically drew is that in many cases, "inside" is used when "in" would convey the wrong meaning.

I got the sense that 里 and 里面 were basically presenting the same kind of problem, and that's why I asked about any differences or situations where 里面 would be used in place of 里. 

Skatinginbc's explanation of parallelism and its effects on formality helped me to understand when it is best to use each. But that being said, it doesn't seem apparent that these two words differ in definition.


But I'm getting the impression from your explanation that there is a subtle difference here, and please correct me if I'm wrong. It seems that 猫在箱子里面 is emphasizing that the cat is *in* the box (as opposed to under or beside or on top of it). But I'm not quite sure what the emphasis in 猫在箱子里 is. It seems like the answer to the question: 猫在哪里?

Really, I'm just spit-balling and hoping that I'm getting close. 

谢谢,
-K


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## BODYholic

kyrintethron said:


> But I'm getting the impression from your explanation that there is a subtle difference here, and please correct me if I'm wrong. It seems that 猫在箱子里面 is emphasizing that the cat is *in* the box (as opposed to under or beside or on top of it). But I'm not quite sure what the emphasis in 猫在箱子里 is. It seems like the answer to the question: 猫在哪里?



Yes, there would be a slight difference if one hair-splits those sentences.

猫在箱子里 defines, firstly, the existence of the cat. That's to say the cat is around somewhere. It didn't vanish into thin air. Then the same sentence also says the cat is in the box.

As confusing as it may get, 猫在箱子里面 tells exactly the same thing. But we've "里面" vs a single morpheme "在". So the former has a greater present than (but it does not overwrite or nullify) the latter in the sentence.

Q: 你看到我的猫吗？它不见了。
A: 你的猫*在*箱子里。

Say, we are playing an hide-and-seek game. You are supposed to find a cat in a small room. I hid it in a box and you couldn't find it.
Q: 猫到底藏在哪？
A: 就在箱子*里面*呀。

Like you have said, the difference is subtle. And it is never wrong, grammatically or logically, even if you interchanged those  answers.


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## Skatinginbc

kyrintethron said:


> In English, those two sentences have almost no discernible difference in meaning.


I think it applies to Chinese as well.  里 and 里面 mean the same to me, that is,    the inner side or interior part (Note: They are nouns, not prepositions  although we often translate 里 as "in" and 里面 as "inside").  Just as the  difference between "in" and "inside" obviously concerns their syllable  numbers, so does the one between 里 and 里面.  There are several factors  that would influence the choice between synonyms: (1) Parallelism, (2)  Brevity (the economic principle, especially in _writing_), (3) Clarity (e.g., multisyllable words can reduce the possibility of confusion with homophones in _speech_), (4) Emphasis (multisyllable words, which occupy longer durations in mental processing, may have an emphatic effect). 


kyrintethron said:


> It seems that 猫在箱子里面 is emphasizing that the cat is *in* the box (as opposed to under or beside or on top of it).


I would put it this way: If the emphasis is on "inside", then 里面 is preferred.       
A: 我的猫跑哪儿了?
B: 你的猫在箱子里(面).
A: 我的猫不见了!
B: 你的猫在箱子里(面).
A: 我在那边找过了.  没有呀.
B: 你的猫在箱子里面呀.


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## kyrintethron

BODYholic said:
			
		

> As confusing as it may get, 猫在箱子里面 tells exactly the same thing. But we've "里面" vs a single morpheme "在". So the former has a greater present than (but it does not overwrite or nullify) the latter in the sentence.
> 
> Q: 你看到我的猫吗？它不见了。
> A: 你的猫*在*箱子里。
> 
> Say, we are playing an hide-and-seek game. You are supposed to find a cat in a small room. I hid it in a box and you couldn't find it.
> Q: 猫到底藏在哪？
> A: 就在箱子*里面**呀**。
> 
> Like you have said, the difference is subtle. And it is never wrong, grammatically or logically, even if you interchanged those answers.*



What you say about double vs single morphemes seems to coincide with what you and Skatinginbc have taught me about parallelism.

But the fact that they are truly interchangeable, I suppose, it very useful. I will endeavor to use them as naturally as possible, but it is nice to know I won't necessarily sound "wrong" either way.

Also, your examples were very clear. Thank you.




			
				Skatinginbc said:
			
		

> I would put it this way: If the emphasis is on "inside", then 里面 is preferred.
> A: 我的猫跑哪儿了?
> B: 你的猫在箱子里(面).
> A: 我的猫不见了!
> B: 你的猫在箱子里(面).
> A: 我在那边找过了. 没有呀.
> B: 你的猫在箱子里面呀.



Your examples are also very helpful. The funny thing is, I think the best way of conveying this emphasis with English equivalents (in writing) is to "emphasize" the text, lol.

"Your cat is in the box." Sounds simply factual.
"Your cat is _*IN*_ the box." Excludes all other relations to the box.

I don't know if this kind of emphasis is also used in Chinese, but I'm glad to finally understand the difference between 里 and 里面.

谢谢你倆, (<- lol, not sure if this is proper Chinese, but gave it a go nevertheless. 你们俩?)
-K


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## Yegor_L

Sorry for bumping this ancient thread and for what might be a noob question, I'm fairly early into learning Chinese.
Why can't we just say  "猫在箱子" is the 里 and 里面 a structurally important element for the sentence to be grammatically correct or is it simply for further specification that the cat is _inside_ the box, rather than just in the box.

Or would simply saying 猫在箱子 just mean that the cat is at the box i.e. in the proximity of the box?


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## 2PieRad

Hi





Yegor_L said:


> 猫在箱子


This would be like _The cat is located [x] box. _It's incomplete without a preposition.



Yegor_L said:


> Or would simply saying 猫在箱子 just mean that the cat is at the box i.e. in the proximity of the box?


I won't go so far as to say that's it's completely impossible or completely unheard of, given that some people can be really informal or sloppy when they speak. But strictly-speaking, it's not correct. You'd need to say something like 猫在箱子旁边/猫在箱子附近 or at the very least 猫在箱子那 - the cat's "there", by the box.


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## SuperXW

Yegor_L said:


> Why can't we just say  "猫在箱子" is the 里 and 里面 a structurally important element for the sentence to be grammatically correct or is it simply for further specification that the cat is _inside_ the box, rather than just in the box.
> 
> Or would simply saying 猫在箱子 just mean that the cat is at the box i.e. in the proximity of the box?


I can't think of any context that 猫在箱子 could be correct.
里/里面/中 is a structurally important element for the sentence to be grammatically correct.
At the same time, it clarify that the cat is in/inside the box ("in/inside" have no difference). 

When we want to say the cat is "at the proximity of the box", maybe inside, maybe on the cover, maybe leaning on it or next to it... we would say 猫在箱子*那儿* / 猫在箱子*那边* / 猫在箱子*那里*. 
那儿/那边/那里 literally means "there" in English.


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## Yegor_L

SuperXW said:


> I can't think of any context that 猫在箱子 could be correct.
> 里/里面/中 is a structurally important element for the sentence to be grammatically correct.
> At the same time, it clarify that the cat is in/inside the box ("in/inside" have no difference).
> 
> When we want to say the cat is "at the proximity of the box", maybe inside, maybe on the cover, maybe leaning on it or next to it... we would say 猫在箱子*那儿* / 猫在箱子*那边* / 猫在箱子*那里*.
> 那儿/那边/那里 literally means "there" in English.


I guess I'm a little bit confused, because from my learnings it seems to be grammatically correct to say something like "我在商店“ or "我在家" how are these different from the example above? Thanks for the help!


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## 2PieRad

🤔   'Tis confusing indeed. 

商店 and 家 are both locations, whereas 箱子 (usually) is not.

我在商店 I'm at the store. What are you doing at the store? I'm buying vegetables. 你在商店干嘛？我在商店买蔬菜。
我在商店里 I'm in/inside the store (physically inside the building/the space). Where are you? I can't find you. I'm inside the store. 你在哪？我找不到你。 我在商店里。

So, 我在箱子 I'm at the box - wouldn't make much sense in either language, unless "The Box" is a location - I'm at The Box, the swankiest night club in town. You need to say in English something like _I'm by the box/I'm near the box/I'm close to the box/I'm in proximity to the box -  _the last option being the most improbable.
我在箱子里 I'm in/inside the box - is fine.

猫在商店 The cat's at the store - would be weird in either language. Humans can go to the store, can be _at a store_ for a specific purpose - to buy something. What's a cat doing _at _the store? Is the cat shopping? Is this a fictional, anthropomorphic cat?  
猫在商店里 The cat's in/inside the store - would be fine. There's a cat in the store. Where did it come from？Is it a stray? 哪来的野猫啊？


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## SuperXW

Like Erebos said, we generally see "box" as an object, not a location.


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## Skatinginbc

我在 location 等你
location：家、臥房、餐廳、廚房、林府、市政府、總統府、慎刑司、警察局、工廠、公司、辦工室、學校、圖書館、醫院、急診室、超市、服務檯、天堂、地獄、美國、西雅圖、南城、城門、大門、門口、天橋、橋頭、公園、遊樂區、車站、售票口、補票處、*五號車箱*....

我在*五號車箱*等你 
我在五號箱 
我在五號箱*子 *

我在五號房 
我在五號房*子 *

我在五號桌 
我在五號桌*子 *


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