# Tell that to your mother



## valdur

Hello all,

Is this: πες το της μαμά σου or πες το στη μαμά σου?
I don't get the use of σε here

Would it be different if there were no *το*? (Tell your mom)
i.e
πες της μαμά σου? is it genitive here as in "tell him" πες του? Why does it switch to genitive when το is there? Is that due to it being the direct object and the person becomes the indirect?

I'm confused!

Thank you


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## sotos

Πες το στη μαμά σου , πες το της μαμάς σου. both correct. The first obeys the formal grammar. the latter doesn't, but still is fine. without το, would be πες στη μαμά σου, or πες της μαμάς σου.


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## valdur

sotos said:


> Πες το στη μαμά σου , πες το της μαμάς σου. both correct. The first obeys the formal grammar. the latter doesn't, but still is fine. without το, would be πες στη μαμά σου, or πες της μαμάς σου.


Thanks! To avoid confusion I’ll just only use the former.


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## Helleno File

sotos said:


> Πες το στη μαμά σου , πες το της μαμάς σου. both correct. The first obeys the formal grammar. the latter doesn't, but still is fine. without το, would be πες στη μαμά σου, or πες της μαμάς σου.


_*Very*_ interesting with genitive + noun.  First time I've seen that!!  What we are taught and what is spoken in contemporary Greek can  be very different!

@valdur Your confusion is very understandable.  Apart from Sotos' comment the the official rule is that the indirect object can be either σε + accusative for nouns or names *or* genitive for pronouns μου, σου, του κτλ [etc].  And for completeness, if you want to stress it's to _me_ etc rather than someone else then it's _σε_ _μένα_ κτλ.

In English if we omit the direct object we also have to leave out the "to" as in your "Tell your mom".  In any case "mom" is always the indirect object.

@sotos in actual speech can the το be left out as in your πες στη μαμά σου; I thought not.


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## valdur

Helleno File said:


> _*Very*_ interesting with genitive + noun.  First time I've seen that!!  What we are taught and what is spoken in contemporary Greek can  be very different!
> 
> @valdur Your confusion is very understandable.  Apart from Sotos' comment the the official rule is that the indirect object can be either σε + accusative for nouns or names *or* genitive for pronouns μου, σου, του κτλ [etc].  And for completeness, if you want to stress it's to _me_ etc rather than someone else then it's _σε_ _μένα_ κτλ.
> 
> In English if we omit the direct object we also have to leave out the "to" as in your "Tell your mom".  In any case "mom" is always the indirect object.
> 
> @sotos in actual speech can the το be left out as in your πες στη μαμά σου; I thought not.


Super helpful. Thank you!


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## dmtrs

My belief is that the two forms of an object (be it direct or indirect) come from the fact that dative case was dropped in modern Greek. Thus, the dative form of an object in ancient Greek has changed either to accusative (usually with σε) or to genitive; most of the times we use both.
Examples:
λέγω τινί τι
>λέω στη μαμά αυτό (and in northern Greece: λέω την μαμά αυτό)
>λέω της μαμάς αυτό

δίδωμι τινί τι
>δίνω στη μαμά αυτό (and in northern Greece: δίνω την μαμά αυτό)
>δίνω της μαμάς αυτό

ομοιάζω τινί
>μοιάζω στη μαμά  (and in northern Greece: μοιάζω την μαμά)
>μοιάζω της μαμάς




Helleno File said:


> in actual speech can the το be left out as in your πες στη μαμά σου;



Normally not. Sometimes, only in oral speech, it can: Δεν έχεις λεφτά; Πες της μαμάς. But it is very rare.
When το is left out, one expects a sentence as an object:
Πες στη μαμά σου ότι/πως/να...
Πες της μαμάς σου ότι/πως/να...
Or a referential phrase:
Πες στη μαμά σου για αυτό.
Πες της μαμάς σου για αυτό.


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## valdur

Great, so I’ll retain use of το unless there’s a descriptive clause following after. Thank you !


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## eno2

Helleno File said:


> _*Very*_ interesting with genitive + noun.  First time I've seen that!!  What we are taught and what is spoken in contemporary Greek can  be very different!



My Greek course uses  this kind of genitive frequently.  It's easier for me not to do so.


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## Αγγελος

The use of the genitive for the indirect object is *perfectly normal *in Greek. It is standard with pronouns (μου έσωσε is much more frequent than έδωσε σ'εμένα, which is mostly used to lay emphasis on the recipient), but it is possible also with nouns: δώσε δυο ευρώ του Γιάννη (=give John 2 euros), and can also replace από as well as σε: μου ζήτησε βοήθεια, ζήτησε της μάνας του να του βάλει να φάει.
A curious consequence is that του πήραν αυτοκίνητο usually means "they bought him a car", but του πήραν το αυτοκίνητο most likely means "they took away his car".


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## eno2

OK  but genitives are more difficult, it's perfectly normal for me to mess them up. 


Αγγελος said:


> μου έσωσε


Typo


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