# Reflexive pronouns like "se me'



## rockhead

Hello everyone, 

I've been learning Spanish for quite some times now. 
Although have learned about reflexive verb, passive voice “se”, impersonal “se” and other usages of reflexive pronouns, I always run into trouble when I come across something expressed with “se me”, “se te”, “se le” and alikes., and I can’t quite grasp the essence of these. I know this is about the most elusive and abstractive aspect in Spanish, and not a single book that I have read has complete information on this subject, so I always try to learn by the sentences I come across. Can anyone help me translate/correct the following sentences? 
 
1. (from a movie I watched recently) Se me nota la panza?  Is my belly noticeable? Or Do they notice my belly?
2. (from a magazine) No tengo miedo de que se me pasen los a*ñ*os para ser madre. I’m not afraid of that I am missing all these years to be a mother. Or  I’m not afraid of that the years to be a mother are passing me by.
3.  No se me dijo eso. I wasn’t told about that. Or They did not tell me about that.
4. Además en el pasaporte se me estampará un sello tachado. In addition, a crossed mark will be stamped on my passport. Or In addition, they will stamp a crossed mark on my passport.
 
 
Thank you.


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## ElenaofTroy

rockhead said:
			
		

> 1. (from a movie I watched recently) Se me nota la panza?  _Is my belly noticeable? _
> 
> 3.  No se me dijo eso._ I wasn’t told about that. _
> 4. Además en el pasaporte se me estampará un sello tachado._ In addition, a crossed mark will be stamped on my passport. Or In addition, they will stamp a crossed mark on my passport._
> 
> Thank you.



I left here the most correct translations according to my knowledge.

Sentence number 2, however, was harder to translate for me. 

2. (from a magazine) No tengo miedo de que se me pasen los a*ñ*os para ser madre. Here is my intent:

I am not afraid that the years to be a mother pass me by.

I hope this helps! 

Iliana.


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## gvergara

rockhead said:
			
		

> Hello everyone,
> 
> I've been learning Spanish for quite some times now.
> Although have learned about reflexive verb, passive voice “se”, impersonal “se” and other usages of reflexive pronouns, I always run into trouble when I come across something expressed with “se me”, “se te”, “se le” and alikes., and I can’t quite grasp the essence of these. I know this is about the most elusive and abstractive aspect in Spanish, and not a single book that I have read has complete information on this subject, so I always try to learn by the sentences I come across. Can anyone help me translate/correct the following sentences?
> 
> 1. (from a movie I watched recently) Se me nota la panza? Is my belly noticeable? Or Do they notice my belly?
> 2. (from a magazine) No tengo miedo de que se me pasen los a*ñ*os para ser madre. I’m not afraid of that I am missing all these years to be a mother. Or I’m not afraid of that the years to be a mother are passing me by.
> 3. No se me dijo eso. I wasn’t told about that. Or They did not tell me about that.
> 4. Además en el pasaporte se me estampará un sello tachado. In addition, a crossed mark will be stamped on my passport. Or In addition, they will stamp a crossed mark on my passport.
> 
> 
> Thank you.


 

Hi:
1) With verbs such as _escuchar, oír, etc._ or _notarse, verse, etc_., the pronoun _se_ means something like "Everybody can hear, etc/ notice it ¿Se me nota la panza? ¿Es tan grande que todos pueden ver mi panza" ¿Se me esuchó el discurso? ¿Hablé suficientemente fuerte como para que todos hayan podido escuchar?. You can rewrite theses sentences by leaving out the me/te/le/... and putting a possessive peonoun ( ¿Se me nota la panza? = ¿Se nota mi panza?) 
2) In this case, I think se has no particular meaning; you have to learn the whole structure _pasársele los años a uno_ by heart (*se me* pasan los años, *se te* pasan  los años, *se le* pasan los años, *se nos* pasan los años, *se les* pasan los años). There are many other cases which follow the same pattern, such as _caérsele el pelo a uno_ (*se me* cae el pelo/ *se te* cae el pelo, etc.; to go bald) and you cannot omit any of the elements of the sentence.
3) Indefinite. You know, in Spanish we prefer to use the _se_ form rather than the passive voice (Meha sido dicho eso)
4) Similar to 1), you can leave out the_ me/te/se.._ and put instead the possessive pronoun (además en mi pasaporte se estampará un sello tachado). 
Greetings

Gonzalo


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## Galianne

Hello Rockhead,

I find your sentences to be perfectly fine although I have to tell you in the first sentence the first translation (Is my belly noticeable?) sounds to me better than the second one (Do they notice my belly?). I'm not saying is wrong (maybe it is, maybe it's not), it just sounds better from passive voice to passive voice. I hope that didn't confuse you and wait for the opinion of some expert. 

Bye-bye.


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## rockhead

Thank you guys for your help.


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## rockhead

Oh one more thing!

Do you think I can translate the first sentence as:

"I’m not afraid of that I am losing all these years to be a mother"
 
Besides the accidental/unintentional "se" and passive "se", it seems to me that sometimes native Spanish speakers would overuse the construction of "se me", "se te", "se le", etc, and in such cases, the "me, te, le" are only a "reference" or an indication of possessiveness. Am I correct?
 
Thanks


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## Outsider

I think it helps to temporarily delete one of the pronouns.

_No se me dijo eso.  No se dijo eso._

This means "That was not said". Note that you can also delete the pronoun _se_. The sentence "No dijo eso" exists, too, with an active meaning:

"No dijo eso": He did not say that.
"No *se* dijo eso": That *was not said*.
"No se *me* dijo eso": *I* was not told that. 

The pronoun _se_ is there to make the verb _notar_ passive.


_Se me nota la panza?  Se nota la panza?_

This means "Does the belly show?", i.e., "Is the belly noticed?" As before, the pronoun _se_ has a passive function.

_Nota la panza?  *Se* nota la panza?_ 
"Does he *notice* the belly?"  "*Is* the belly *noticed*?"

But the sentence with _se_ doesn't tell us whose belly we're talking about. When you add the pronoun _me_, it tells us that the belly belongs to the speaker. "Is my belly noticed?", i.e., "Does *my* belly show?" The pronoun _me_ really acts more as a possessive than as a personal pronoun, here (this is possible in Spanish).


_No tengo miedo de que se me pasen los años para ser madre.  No tengo miedo de que se pasen los años para ser madre._

This means "I'm not afraid to let the years for being a mother go by". Now, the pronoun _se_ has a different role in this case than in the previous two examples. _"No tengo miedo de que pasen los años para ser madre"_ is not an active version of _"No tengo miedo de que se pasen los años para ser madre"._ 
What we have here is a pronominal verb, _pasarse_, "to go by". The _se_ doesn't really add any information, it's just a part of the verb phrase. Adding the pronoun _me_, this tells us that the "years go by" _for the speaker_. 

"I'm not afraid to let the years for *me to be* a mother go by". See also Jess' post, below.


_Además en el pasaporte se me estampará un sello tachado.?  Además en el pasaporte se estampará un sello tachado._

This one is like the first example. First, the _se_ is not there just for the ride. It has a passive function:

"En el pasaporte estampará un sello tachado": He will stamp a crossed seal on the passport.
"En el pasaporte *se* estampará un sello tachado": A crossed seal *will be stamped* on the passport.

Then, by adding _me_, we are saying whose passport it is:

"En el pasaporte se *me* estampará un sello tachado": A crossed seal will be stamped on *my* passport.


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## Fonεtiks

Very nice explanation Outsider! I was wondering about the same "overuse" of "se me, se te, se le, se nos, se les" in Spanish. They have a "possessive" meaning. Thanks


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## jess oh seven

this thread might help you
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=63321

my "Español para extranjeros" book goes over this construction. a lot of the time it's used in an accidental sense, and the personal pronoun is put there to indicate who is affected. this is how it's explained in the book:

_He quemado el arroz_ (acción voluntaria)
_Se ha quemado el arroz_ (acción involuntaria)
_Se me ha quemado el arroz_ (_se_: acción involuntaria; _me_: persona afectada)


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## rockhead

Thank you outsider. The explanations you provided are excellent! 

Besides the "reflexive pronoun + Indirect Object pronoun" situations in accidental/unintentional “se” and the passive “se”, whenever I seen a “reflexive pronoun + I.O pronoun “construction in a sentence, I tend to first analyze to see if the verb involved is a true reflexive verb (and it’s meaning in reflexive form), and then I would try to determine how it’s related to the I.O pronoun (or vise versa). *Is this a good approach?* 

However, there are sentences with “reflexive pronoun + I.O pronoun” constructions in which the main verbs seem to have nothing to do with reflexive sense. Is this possible? Can anyone help me with the following sentences? Do these sentences use the impersonal “se” rule? 

**. Se me conoce aqui. *_They know me here. _Se = they (impersonal or unspecified) me = Direct Object

**. A otros se les puede querer por otra cosa, pero a mí se me quiere por esto. *Se = they, les = being used as Direct object.

*. *Se me puede devolver a mi país de origen.* _They can give me back to my country of origin_


Thank you all.


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## Outsider

rockhead said:
			
		

> Besides the "reflexive pronoun + Indirect Object pronoun" situations in accidental/unintentional “se” and the passive “se”, whenever I seen a “reflexive pronoun + I.O pronoun “construction in a sentence, I tend to first analyze to see if the verb involved is a true reflexive verb (and it’s meaning in reflexive form), and then I would try to determine how it’s related to the I.O pronoun (or vise versa). *Is this a good approach?*


I think so. More below.



			
				rockhead said:
			
		

> However, there are sentences with “reflexive pronoun + I.O pronoun” constructions in which the main verbs seem to have nothing to do with reflexive sense. Is this possible?


Absolutely. See below. 

You have four main kinds of 'reflexive' verbs in Spanish:

*1 - truly reflexive verbs:*

These indicate an action which the subject performs on itself. E.g., _Ella se baña_, "She bathes herself". Here, the subject and the object are both "she", so the object is represented by the reflexive pronoun _se_. If you changed the subject, the object pronoun would change accordingly:

_Yo *me* baño.
Tú *te* bañas.
Usted *se* baña.
Ellas *se* bañan_: They bathe themselves.
etc.


*2 - reciprocal verbs:*

These indicate an action which two groups of individuals perform on each other. E.g., _Ana y María se besaran_, "Ann and Mary kissed each other". Because the reflexive pronoun and the reciprocal pronoun are the same, sometimes a sentence can sound ambiguous. For example:

_Ellos se heriran_: "They hurt themselves" or "They hurt each other"?

To avoid any confusion, we can repeat the object, when necessary:

_Ellos se heriran *a sí mismos*_: "They hurt themselves."
_Ellos se heriran *uno al otro*_: "They hurt each other."

I this case as well, the pronoun doesn't need to be _se_. "Ellos se heriran"  "Nosotros *nos* herimos", etc.


*3 - pronominal verbs (conventional reflexive):*

In the two cases above the verb still existed, with the same meaning, without the _se_: we can say _María *baña* a su hijo_, _María *besa* a Juan_, _Juan *here* su pie_. However, some verbs cannot exist without a _se_, or have a very different meaning without it. I gave an example above, 

_pasarse_ [un período de tiempo]: to go by [a period of time]

There is no semantic reason why 'time going by' should be seen as a reflexive event. It is purely by convention that this verb must take the pronoun _se_. You can think of it as a 'fake' reflexive. As you and Jess have remarked, these verbs usually refer to accidental, unintentional, spontaneous, or natural occurences. 
These are the ones you should try to memorize, as one memorizes English phrasal verbs.

In this case also, the pronoun doesn't have to be _se_. For example, the verb _olvidarse_, "to forget", is pronominal:

_Él *se* ha olvidado del cumpleaños de su mujer._ [He did not literally forget _himself_!]
_Yo *me* he olvidado del cumpleaños de mi mujer._
etc.


*4 - the indeterminate se construction:*

I explained this in my previous post with detail. Things to remember: in this case, the verb can exist by itself, without _se_, and it has the same meaning. The function of the pronoun is to make a transitive verb passive instead of active:

"No dijo eso" [active]  "No se dijo eso" [passive]
"En el pasaporte estampará un sello tachado" [active]  "En el pasaporte se estampará un sello tachado" [passive]

The pronoun _se_ can also be used with intransitive verbs, in which case the _se_ stands for an indeterminate agent:

"Él corrió." [He ran.]  "*Se* corrió." [Someone/Everyone ran.]

Contrary to the previous cases, only the pronoun _se_ itself can have a passive value. You cannot say "No me dije eso"  with a passive sense.



			
				rockhead said:
			
		

> Can anyone help me with the following sentences? Do these sentences use the impersonal “se” rule?
> Yes, they are all examples of the passive 'se'.
> 
> **. Se me conoce aqui. *_They know me here. _Se = they (impersonal or unspecified) me = Direct Object
> Equivalent to "I am known here".
> 
> **. A otros se les puede querer por otra cosa, pero a mí se me quiere por esto. *Se = they, les = being used as Direct object.
> Equivalent to "Others may be wanted for something else, but I'm wanted for this".
> 
> *. *Se me puede devolver a mi país de origen.* _They can give me back to my country of origin_
> "I can be returned to my home country".


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## Outsider

Fonetiks said:
			
		

> Very nice explanation Outsider! I was wondering about the same "overuse" of "se me, se te, se le, se nos, se les" in Spanish. They have a "possessive" meaning. Thanks


You may find this earlier thread interesting: 'No te me pongas triste!'


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## rockhead

Hi Outsider,

Thanks so much.You have been a great help. Do you know of any book that has chapters dedicated for this topic? I can't find them here in USA. I now have a better understanding of this type of construction, but it will be handy to have some books.


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## Christian

I recommend Dorothy Richmond's "Spanish Verb Tenses,"and the companion, "Pronouns." They're workbooks in the series, "Practice Makes Perfect." 


cpWord


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## rockhead

Thank you Christian.

I have both of these books by Dorothy Richmand. They are great books especially the one deals with pronouns and prepositions. However, these two books do not provide detailed discussions on the topic of Reflexive Pronoun + I.O Pronoun construction.


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## Larídus Konivàich

In the book Schaum´s ouTlines: Spanish Grammar, Fourth Edition, by Conrad J. Schmit, there is a short section of reflexive pronouns followed by indirect object pronouns. "In order to express an involuntary or unexpected action, the reflexive pronouns along with the indirect object pronoun is used in the same sentence. You will note that the direct object of the English sentence functions as the subject of the Spanish sentence" (p. 143)

Se te olvidó el significado de la palabra.     _You forgot the meaning of the word.

_


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## eric crowder

rockhead said:
			
		

> Hello everyone,
> 
> I've been learning Spanish for quite some times now.
> Although have learned about reflexive verb, passive voice “se”, impersonal “se” and other usages of reflexive pronouns, I always run into trouble when I come across something expressed with “se me”, “se te”, “se le” and alikes., and I can’t quite grasp the essence of these. I know this is about the most elusive and abstractive aspect in Spanish, and not a single book that I have read has complete information on this subject, so I always try to learn by the sentences I come across. Can anyone help me translate/correct the following sentences?
> 
> 1. (from a movie I watched recently) Se me nota la panza?  Is my belly noticeable? Or Do they notice my belly?
> 2. (from a magazine) No tengo miedo de que se me pasen los a*ñ*os para ser madre. I’m not afraid of that I am missing all these years to be a mother. Or  I’m not afraid of that the years to be a mother are passing me by.
> 3.  No se me dijo eso. I wasn’t told about that. Or They did not tell me about that.
> 4. Además en el pasaporte se me estampará un sello tachado. In addition, a crossed mark will be stamped on my passport. Or In addition, they will stamp a crossed mark on my passport.
> 
> 
> Thank you.


You,  I think are the only guy , who knows EXACTLY what my problem is!!!
I too have read all the "topics" you list and I cannot find a text book to help. When I have been doing thing like ...

se lo "doy"   .... in the context of I gave it to her whic hgives us la lo doy so we have to change the la to se and end up with se lo doy. This I can understand. 
I am beginning to think that the answer is the following 
If we have the verb olvidar it doesn´t work that way but if it is the verb olvidarse then the conjugation in the first person cannot exist on its own so it has to be me olvidó.  SO it follows that to forget to oneself it now reads  

 (le, la , lo ) and  oneself  ie.  se      me olvidó

What do you think or am I up a gum tree!!!!!!!

Thanks anyway for the input I will give it more of my time tomorrow after my spanish lesson...Adiós    Eric


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## Outsider

"I forgot my dictionary":

_Me olvidó mi diccionario._ 
_Me olvidé de mi diccionario._


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## Christian

I see my earlier message has been edited by a forum administrator to remove a "promotional link." Apparently it is the link that causes the distress, not the promotion, since the purpose of my message was to ádvocate, review, promote, and cause the further sale of Dorothy Richmond's books, as good helpmate to a library on Spanish grammar and use of prepositions, and that advocacy was not censored. 

IN fact, Í also seek to promote, review, advocate and cause the flourishing of  certain on-line vendors of books, among them Amazon and ExLibris, which for the sake of convenience I add to such messages.

If such a convenient link, which is the essence of Internet use, is against policy here, surely the mention of the Internet bookseller Amazon is not.


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## gvergara

Outsider said:
			
		

> "I forgot my dictionary":
> 
> _Me olvidó mi diccionario._
> _Me olvidé de mi diccionario._


 
Hola:
Error en la primera oración._ Me olvidó mi diccionario_ significa "_My dictionary has forgotten me_" (¿?¿?¿?¿?¿?¿?¿?¿?¿?¿?¿?¿?¿?¿?¿?¿?) 
Sí se puede decir _Se me olvidó mi diccionario_. Saludos

Gonzalo


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## Outsider

Gracias por su corrección.


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## gvergara

De nada. Para eso estamos. Saludos

Gonzalo


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## eric crowder

gvergara

Muchas gracias.

Estoy cansado despues mucho bailando esta noche. Tambien es muy tarde
Hasta luego


Eric


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## Fonεtiks

eric crowder said:
			
		

> gvergara
> 
> Muchas gracias.
> 
> Estoy cansado despues mucho bailando esta noche. Después de estar bailando mucho / después de bailar mucho / Después de mucho estar bailando
> 
> Eric


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## DaleC

Rockhead, 

A book that really will tell you new things about 'se' is 

Using Spanish : a guide to contemporary usage / R.E. Batchelor, C.J. Pountain. Cambridge University Press, 1992. 
There are plenty of copies available cheap on the Web. Aside from Using Spanish, the only way you can learn more from reading is to look at literature written for linguists. 




			
				rockhead said:
			
		

> Do you know of any book that has chapters dedicated for this topic? I can't find them here in USA.


 
If you are in a city with a university that allows in members of the general public, you can read their books in the library. There are also some Web pages with very detailed explanations. 

You seem to understand 'se' pretty well already. In particular, all your translations were correct, and you know all the well known categories of 'se'. You almost answered your own questions. Are you sure you need more books for the beginner or for the general reader? 

This doesn't mean you understand the topic 100 percent, but I wonder if you could think about it some more and ask new questions. 

There are two more categories of meaning denoted by 'se' which you have not mentioned. 

Regards, 
Dale


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## DaleC

rockhead said:
			
		

> Do you know of any book that has chapters dedicated for this topic?


 
I left out a book. Here are the two books that will help someone understand 'se' and use it correctly. 

A new reference grammar of modern Spanish / John Butt, Carmen Benjamin London : Arnold, 2004 (4th ed.) 

Using Spanish : a guide to contemporary usage / R.E. Batchelor, C.J. Pountain. Cambridge University Press, 1992 


Butt and Benjamin seems to be the leading reference grammar in English for use by nonspecialists. I have read it almost from cover to cover, and it really is special. 

Using Spanish has eight pages on reflexive 'se', including example sentences for 36 verbs with and without 'se'.


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## eric crowder

Rockhead
At last I understand se me olvidó.   Eureka  Shazam  and all the others.

un amigo diegodbs ( on here ) and three books and I feel good.

The books 

A spanish Learning Grammar Pilar Muñoz and Mike Thatcher Oxford University Press

Using Spanish R E Batchelor and C J Pountain Cambridge Univer Press.

Got this for 2 bucks on Amazon from New York and it was the clincher!

And the best book in the world by most people who have ever appraised books is An essential course in Modern Spanish by H Ramsden (Nelson) . It went out of print in 1989 but I got this on Amazon too for a few dollars.
A soft back edition and its always by my side. THe reviews are just gushing by everyone and I have found out a friend of mine ( doing his Masters in translation )  also rates it! 


They all give examples and slogging your guts over them it seems to have sunk in.
Something I have had to look at as well and remember is
the third person singular  se          
can be  he ,she , "oneself",  it  and yourself. That seems to clarify thewhole thing for me 


eg  


se me olvidó    I forgot  the olvidó is the third person so you can look at it like this

se olvidó       ie      one forgot.

the me is put in as a reinforcer to emphasise  that it is yourself.

if it was se  le olvidó   then it could be  he  or she   and it is still

se olvidó   but this time  put in    le to emphasise  that it is he or she

similiarly you can do the same thing with third person plural.


The books seemed to bring it all together.  I hopethis helps you and the books are cheap so they´re  worht having for reference anyway.

Adios amigo

Saludos

email Eric Crowder at talktalk.net


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## eric crowder

Dale  I bought the book you recommended to Rockhead Excellent.
I am a happy man tonight

saludos

Eric


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