# Men might march on nor be prest



## James Smart

"Men might march on nor be prest".

My try:

"Los hombres podían marchar y no estar listos".

If somebody would like to explain the sentence with other english words, he/she is very welcome!

Thanks.


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## aztlaniano

Por favor comprueba el texto original, y aporta el contexto (explicación más abajo).
Para usar "nor" hace falta una negación anterior. "Prest" es una palabra arcaica.

No se puede traducir correctamente una expresión, una palabra, o incluso una frase sin explicar a los demás el contexto.

Qué es (puede ser) contexto:

- *La frase entera* en la que se encuentra la palabra buscada (incluso a veces la anterior y la que sigue)
- *El tema*
- *Marcar palabra* precisa que bloquea
- *El soporte* (periódico/ libro/ internet...)
- Qué* tipo de escrito* (literario/ artículo/ sátira/ poema/ canción...)
- El *país de origen* y el país *de destino* de la traducción
- *La fecha* en la que el texto ha sido escrito
- *El tono* del escrito (una misma palabra no tendrá el mismo significado si él que escribe está denigrando o alabando)
- *Para qué* necesita la respuesta. (Eso permite entender el "contexto comunicacional") 
- *El significado* de la expresión o palabra original
- *En qué ámbito* o rama nos estamos moviendo (indispensable si estamos en un campo técnico)
- *El registro* (culto/ familiar/ coloquial)

Sólo podemos aconsejar que el solicitante de ayuda se ponga en el lugar de los foreros que van a ayudarle a resolver su duda.


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## James Smart

I´m sorry.

It is a part of a stanza in a poem by R. Browning:

Where the domed and daring palace shot its spires
Up like fires
O'er the hundred-gated circuit of a wall
Bounding all,
Made of marble, men might march on nor be prest,
Twelve abreast.

"Donde el abovedado y desafiante palacio alzaba sus agujas
Como fuego
Encima del circuito de una envolvente muralla
De cien entradas,
Hecha de mármol, los hombres podían pasar y no estar presta,
En fila de a doce."

1. Is "prest" referred to the "wall"?
2. Is here "nor" = and not?


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## aztlaniano

Los hombres podían marchar _encima de_ la muralla, en una columna de doce en fondo, _sin quedar apretados _(es decir, _cómodamente_).

Prest = pressed


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## TravelinTom

I can't do it in Spanish, no way. "Prest" was also money paid for British enlistment. Browning, I think, is saying that these men (made of marble) were bought with the gold of "glory and shame"...nor prest....not cash. But, hell, it is poetry...hard to interpret even in the same language. Maybe it is just that sissy poet-talk and prest is "pressed", not pushed or forced into battle. "Not ready" can't be right...these guys were ready, to kill and to die.


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## James Smart

Thank you very much to you, aztlaniano and TravelinTom!

Even though, there are some things still unclear (at least for me):

TravelinTom, you say that "made of marble" is referred to men... though I thought it was related to the wall or its gates... Maybe I have to read the entire poem to realize about this point and the other pointed out by you: I like your interpretation on "prest" as money. It seems plausible.
In any case, I like more aztlaniano's interpretation of "prest" as if men over the wall could walk without being pressed one to another.
From the context of this stanza I can't see any men pushed or not into battle.

Thank you!


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## TravelinTom

Hey, it is poetry... the wall AND the men. Prest is certainly enlistment money... See #2 here http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Prest  And it fits so well with the rest of the poem. Also, being "pressed" in the old times was being drafted... nor pressed... volunteers. And yes, bounding the wall without being crowded, that too.
One of the great things about poetry, and that perfectly exact word, is the multiple meanings.


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## James Smart

TravelinTom said:


> Hey, it is poetry... the wall AND the men. Prest is certainly enlistment money... See #2 here http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Prest And it fits so well with the rest of the poem. Also, being "pressed" in the old times was being drafted... nor pressed... volunteers. And yes, bounding the wall without being crowded, that too.
> One of the great things about poetry, and that perfectly exact word, is the multiple meanings.


 

Yes, you are perfectly right. And Browning, I guess, was an excellent poet. Thanks for sharing your readings with me!


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## Lis48

As a lover of Browning, my thoughts are:
_Nor be prest_ means they were not forced to march on, they marched on willingly. 
The men were "made of marble" so had a very strong determination, they could resist anything.
_Prest_ refers to the money paid for enlistment because in the old days, men were paid/pressed/forced/press-ganged into joining up.
I wouldn´t say it had anything to do with being pressed against the wall.
The men were so determined that they marched on, of their own free will, without being forced to.


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## Arrius

I sincerely believe that it was not the men but the wall that was made of marble (as is normally the case), which description fits in with the other appurtenances of this formerly grand city, adding to its vastness and opulence. The men went over the circuit (circle) of the wall through one of the wide gates, so wide that they could walk in ranks of twelve without being crowded (prest): _in the press_ used to mean _in the crowd,_ cf. the Soothsayer scene in "Julius Caesar_"._  The form _prest_ is used for _pressed_ because the usual form might be thought to have two syllables, which could spoil the metre of the poem.  It can mean _hurried_ but not here.  I like *James Smart's* translation except for the penultimate line, which I would modify to *podían pasar a sus anchas.*  As for
*Men might march on nor be prest, *a modern less stylish way of saying this would be _Men could (easily) march, and without being crowded either._
  The title of this poem of Browning's is "Love Among the Ruins", in which he contrasts the present glory of a romantic tryst in this now rustic setting with the former glory of the great ruined city.  This is summed up in the last lines:
*With their triumphs and their glories and the rest! 
Love is best.* 
I love Browning's verse. His metre and rhymes are so subtle and intricate that  they tend to be absorbed in the discourse, so that one sometimes has the impression that one is reading beautiful prose.
For those who are further interested, here is the whole poem:
http://www.netpoets.com/classic/poems/009015.htm


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## k-in-sc

Agree with Arrius!


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## mijoch

I'm not a poety type really.

I agree with Arrius, except on one point.

I think the marble wall was wide enough for 12 men to march (on) its top, abreast, without being "prest".

M.

Nor-----conj. "and not".   So "march on abreast, *and not* be prest".


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## James Smart

It is great for me discussing english poetry with english speakers. Thank you all so much.

After all your points of views, in my opinion, it is suitable firstly to read "prest" as referred to the lack of crowded walking, with the possibility to read it, in a second and indirect reading, as referred to the old payment to men (and the same regarding to "made of marble"). Following that, my final translation is:

Donde el abovedado y desafiante palacio alzaba sus agujas
Como fuego
Encima del circuito de una envolvente muralla
De cien entradas,
Hecha de mármol, los hombres podían pasar a sus anchas,
En fila de a doce.
 
As you can see, for me what is "over" the wall is not mainly "men" but "palace' spires".
 
Hope to see you again!
Bye


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## Dlyons

James Smart said:


> I´m sorry.
> 
> It is a part of a stanza in a poem by R. Browning:
> 
> Where the domed and daring palace shot its spires
> Up like fires
> O'er the hundred-gated circuit of a wall
> Bounding all,
> Made of marble, men might march on nor be prest,
> Twelve abreast.



What Browning is saying is that it's a wide wall!

Twelve men can walk along it, side by side, without being cramped.

[Edit] I've just noticed that several people have said this already!  So this is an independent confirmation, if one were needed


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## James Smart

Dlyons said:


> What Browning is saying is that it's a wide wall!
> 
> Twelve men can walk along it, side by side, without being cramped.


 
Yes, of course. Thank you!

J.S.


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## Arrius

_O'er the hundred-gated circuit of a wall
Bounding all,
Made of marble, men might march on nor be prest,
Twelve abreast_.
I took it that the _march on_ meant _march forward one rank after another_, not that _on_ meant _on top of._  Also that _o'er the circuit_ meant that their line of march intersected the circle described by the wall at right angles as they went through one of the wide gates, not that they were marching in circles.
 I am no longer sure if I was right, and apart from ostentation, why should the gates be built so wide that they would easily admit an enemy?  I hope you see my point.


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## k-in-sc

I think "march on" does mean "upon the wall," "on top of the wall." And the point is not that they could make a complete circuit of the city by walking on the wall, but that the wall encircles the palace.


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## Dlyons

Lis48 said:


> As a lover of Browning, my thoughts are:
> _Nor be prest_ means they were not forced to march on, they marched on willingly.
> The men were "made of marble" so had a very strong determination, they could resist anything.
> _Prest_ refers to the money paid for enlistment because in the old days, men were paid/pressed/forced/press-ganged into joining up.
> I wouldn´t say it had anything to do with being pressed against the wall.
> The men were so determined that they marched on, of their own free will, without being forced to.



I normally agree with pretty much everything Lis48 posts, but here I'm afraid I have to disagree 

I see the wall as marble, not the men.

And "not prest" as meaning the wall is wide enough for 12 abreast to march.

But that's the beauty of poetry - multiple different interpretations are teneable.


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## Lis48

Thanks Dylans! I suspect that Browning deliberately wanted to make the sense ambiguous and imaginative.
Personally, I can´t imagine that a wall wide enough to hold men ten abreast would be _made of_ _marble_ as granite would be easier, cheaper and more normal, but I guess it´s possible that it is figurative, meaning unsurpassable, just as the men could be _made of marble_ in terms of their determination. 
_Bounding all_ to me at first reading meant that the men were leaping up and over the walls, but to others it refers to the wall bounding all the city.
_Prest_ could refer to the men pressed close together or to the way they determinedly pressed on their way. 
_March on_ could mean the soldiers marched on, or that they marched on top of the walls. 
So we could have soldiers clambouring over the walls or going through the 100 gates or marching on top of the walls...
But we all agree that it´s about lots of soldiers capturing a stronghold which is maybe all Browning meant. He wanted to stir our imagination by his use of ambiguous words so that we all think differently!
But that doesn´t help James, but I doubt if Browning was considering the problems future translators would face.


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## Arrius

*But we all agree that it´s about lots of soldiers capturing a stronghold* *Lis48*

Hold on a bit, no we don't. I thought that the soldiers belonged to the fortress and would march in and out triumphantly through the wide gates with a captain, general or ruler at or near their head. If the interpretation of soldiers marching round on top of the walls is taken as correct, then I would say that that probably never occurred and it was only meant to give an idea of the thickness of the wall using the breadth of an average soldier as a unit of measurement twelve of which, comfortable spaced, would span the wall from edge to edge. Naturally, soldiers on sentry-go would pace up and down on various sections of the wall but only singly or in twos and threes.


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## Lis48

You´re absolutely right Arrius. I take it all back and go along with there being plenty of room for soldiers to walk twelve abreast without being crushed.
My image was of them attacking the castle and bounding over the wall.  

Hecha de mármol, los hombres podían pasar a sus anchas,
En fila de a doce.


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## SydLexia

I agree with Arrius (provided that we accept that the men were marching/could have marched on top of the walls). The picture is of a huge, powerful, impregnable city. The idea of 'x men marching abreast' has been used as a measure of width since antiquity (and was also used by Churchill to describe the autobahns Hitler was building in Germany in the 1930's). 

I think it is also clear that the 'without being prest' is part of the 'measurement of width' as the speed or reason for the men's movement is immaterial in the context.

As for marble. Once again we are talking about the walls and, although I agree they would not be made of solid marble, I can see no reason why they should not be as marble as any 'marbled hall', present or past.

So, the marble and the men define the wall; the wall and the gates define the city; and the city, filtered through Romantic sensibility, defines the love the poem is about.

syd


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## Arrius

A good point, *SydLexia, *man has from time immemorial measured in terms of the human body: mile comes from mille pasuum, a thousand (human) paces: a fathom comes from a germanc word meanig embrace, and refers to the distance between the fingertips of a man with outstretched arms; the biblical cubit is the distance from elbow to finger tip: the French use their word for thumb to mean inch; and we still say that a horse stands so many hands high.
About the marble, Browning may not have been exaggerating too much. The walls may just have been faced with marble, as is generally the case in modern times,or a façade of something that looked like marble. Marble is too costly and difficult to quarry and transport. Think of all the trouble Michelangelo had getting his to Rome, and not really suitable to build defences with anyway because it splits easily under bombardment from cannon or ballista.


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## Valeria Mesalina

Maybe I´m putting my foot where I shouldn´t, but that is how I understand it:

En donde las audaces bóvedas del palacio elevan sus agujas
como lenguas de fuego
Sobre la muralla de las cien puertas
que lo rodea
construída en mármol, doce hombres hubieran podido marchar, hombro con hombro,
sin tocarse siquiera.


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## aztlaniano

Valeria Mesalina said:


> En donde las audaces bóvedas del palacio elevan sus agujas
> como lenguas de fuego
> Sobre la muralla de las cien puertas
> que lo rodea
> construída en mármol, doce hombres hubieran podido marchar, hombro con hombro,
> sin tocarse siquiera.


Me parece una traducción bonita y acertada, aunque tengo una reserva sobre "hubiera podido marchar" (might march). Hubiera puesto simplemente "podían".


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## Valeria Mesalina

Gracias Aztlaniano, siempre eres muy amable.

Puse el verbo así porque aunque los centinelas recorrían las murallas en la Edad Media, nunca lo hubieran hecho de doce en fondo.


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## James Smart

Let me pointing out some points:

1. I think it is possible to conceive that the rank of men or soldiers march on over the wall, or through the gates. Both interpretations seem plausible for me. The reason that the wall can be so wide is that the city described there looks like almost a fairy one.

2. "Bounding all": Lis48, if I understand right, I can't imagine men made of marble leaping up... (over a wall, through gates, or wherever). That verse have to refer to the city: nothing more clear!

3. I do totally agree with Arrius at post n.20: I don't agree with Lisa48 about men capturing the city; it is the other way around: these men belong to the city, as Arrius clear up.


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## James Smart

Valeria Mesalina said:


> Gracias Aztlaniano, siempre eres muy amable.
> 
> Puse el verbo así porque aunque los centinelas recorrían las murallas en la Edad Media, nunca lo hubieran hecho de doce en fondo.


 

Me parece una variante válida excepto que, como señala Arrius en el n. 20 y yo, en el post anterior le doy la razón, lo que hacen los hombres es más bien "pasar" por las puertas de la muralla, que "marchar" sobre ella. Tal vez pueda, como digo en el post anterior, interpretarse -de modo un tanto fantástico- que caminan sobre la muralla. Pero finalmente me inclino a pensar que sólo pasan por las puertas.

Saludos,
J.S.


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## Arrius

*2. "Bounding all": Lis48, if I understand right, I can't imagine men made of marble leaping up... (over a wall, through gates, or wherever). James Smart*

Neither can I even if they are not made of marble. _Bounding all_ means acting as a _boundary (limite/ frontera) _for all, nothing at all to do with leaping or bouncing (_saltar o rebotar_). But I am not sure if anyone still adheres to the latter interpretation.


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## Valeria Mesalina

James Smart said:


> Tal vez pueda, como digo en el post anterior, interpretarse -de modo un tanto fantástico- que caminan sobre la muralla.


 
No; no entiendo que caminen sobe las murallas; entiendo que el poeta está describiendo el tamaño de las murallas.

Un poeta puede describir un tamaño de una manera no convencional.

"No, ´t is not so deep as a well, nor so wide as a church door, but ´t is enough, ´t will serve".

Romeo and Juliet, act three, scene one.


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## Arrius

"*No, ´t is not so deep as a well, nor so wide as a church door, but ´t is enough, ´t will serve".*
Mercutio, Romeo's cousin, describing the fatal sword wound given him by a relative of Juliet's, Tybalt, whom Romeo  subsequently stabs to death.


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## aztlaniano

James Smart said:


> ..., lo que hacen los hombres es más bien "_pasar" por las puertas_ de la muralla, que "marchar" sobre ella. Tal vez pueda, como digo en el post anterior, interpretarse -de modo un tanto fantástico- que caminan sobre la muralla. Pero finalmente me inclino a pensar que *sólo pasan por las puertas*.


 
Si pasan por las puertas, ¿qué pinta aquí "o'er (over) the ... circuit"?
*O'er* _the hundred-gated circuit_ of a _wall_
Bounding all,
Made of marble, men might march *on* nor be prest,
Twelve abreast.
To march over a circuit = recorrirlo
Y si aún queda alguna duda, a continuación, nada más nombrar la muralla (wall) el poeta precisa que era construida de tal manera que los hombres "might march on" (it) - marchar sobre ella. Lo de "twleve abreast" puede ser una exageración (tendría que ser de la escala de la Gran Muralla China) pero el sentido queda claro.


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## James Smart

Valeria Mesalina said:


> No; no entiendo que caminen sobe las murallas; entiendo que el poeta está describiendo el tamaño de las murallas.
> 
> Un poeta puede describir un tamaño de una manera no convencional.
> 
> "No, ´t is not so deep as a well, nor so wide as a church door, but ´t is enough, ´t will serve".
> 
> Romeo and Juliet, act three, scene one.


 
Pero en ese caso tú no estarías acusando recibo de la corrección de aztlaniano: no es "hubieran podido" sino "podían".
Browning está describiendo un hecho: el hecho de que unos hombres podían algo. ¿Qué? pasar en filas de a 12 por las puertas de una muralla.


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## James Smart

aztlaniano said:


> Si pasan por las puertas, ¿qué pinta aquí "o'er (over) the ... circuit"?
> *O'er* _the hundred-gated circuit_ of a _wall_
> Bounding all,
> Made of marble, men might march *on* nor be prest,
> Twelve abreast.
> To march over a circuit = recorrirlo
> Y si aún queda alguna duda, a continuación, nada más nombrar la muralla (wall) el poeta precisa que era construida de tal manera que los hombres "might march on" (it) - marchar sobre ella. Lo de "twleve abreast" puede ser una exageración (tendría que ser de la escala de la Gran Muralla China) pero el sentido queda claro.


 
Claro que estás omitiendo el primer verso:

Donde el abovedado y desafiante palacio alzaba sus agujas
encima de la muralla...

Lo que está sobre la muralla son las agujas: el autor resalta así la impresión que causa la altura de las agujas.

Por otra parte, según el diccionario "march on" es "seguir su camino" o "pasar": times marches on, el tiempo pasa.
Esto quiere decir que los hombres pasan por el conjunto general de muralla y puertas, las cuales últimas son amplias.


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## Valeria Mesalina

James Smart said:


> Pero en ese caso tú no estarías acusando recibo de la corrección de aztlaniano: no es "hubieran podido" sino "podían".
> Browning está describiendo un hecho: el hecho de que unos hombres podían algo. ¿Qué? pasar en filas de a 12 por las puertas de una muralla.


 
Aztlaniano está corrigiendo el tiempo del verbo, porque yo lo he cambiado; pero nunca entendí que los hombres entrasen por las puertas, sino que la muralla tenía cien puertas y era tan ancha que doce hombres podían caminar sobre ella.

Por otra parte, las agujas no están sobre la muralla; son las torres del palacio.


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## James Smart

Valeria Mesalina said:


> Aztlaniano está corrigiendo el tiempo del verbo, porque yo lo he cambiado; pero nunca entendí que los hombres entrasen por las puertas, sino que la muralla tenía cien puertas y era tan ancha que doce hombres podían caminar sobre ella.
> 
> Por otra parte, las agujas no están sobre la muralla; son las torres del palacio.


 
"Over" no se refiere necesariamente a que algo esté físicamente encima de algo, como si procediera de la misma base: en este caso, es desafiantemente superior, aunque partiendo de una base distinta.


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## Valeria Mesalina

James Smart said:


> "Over" no se refiere necesariamente a que algo esté físicamente encima de algo, como si procediera de la misma base: en este caso, es desafiantemente superior, aunque partiendo de una base distinta.


 
Whatever you say, man.


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## ManPaisa

*Might march: Podrían marchar.*

It's a way of describing how wide the wall was.


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## ManPaisa

James Smart said:


> "Over" no se refiere necesariamente a que algo esté físicamente encima de algo, como si procediera de la misma base: en este caso, es desafiantemente superior, aunque partiendo de una base distinta.


 
I disagree.


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## James Smart

ManPaisa said:


> *Might march: Podrían marchar.*
> 
> It's a way of describing how wide the wall was.


 
Browning is describing old FACTS:

stanza 2: "Was the site once..."
"its prince (...) held his court in"

stanza 4: "men might march on..."

Thank you for let me share Browning with you.


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## ManPaisa

James Smart said:


> Browning is describing old FACTS:
> 
> stanza 2: "Was the site once..."
> "its prince (...) held his court in"
> 
> stanza 4: "men might march on..."


 
I stand by my opinion.* Los hombres podrían marchar* is the best way of translating *men might march.*



> Thank you for *letting* *me* share Browning with you.


 
Thank ye!  I've read him often and of my own accord.


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## TravelinTom

ManPaisa said:


> *Might march: Podrían marchar.*
> 
> It's a way of describing how wide the wall was.


 
Dumb me.  Of course!  My apology for my earlier posts.


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## James Smart

TravelinTom said:


> Dumb me. Of course! My apology for my earlier posts.


 np. You're really great for recognize it


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