# Egyptian Arabic: حاطط



## foforum

What means  حاط  In this line
شكلك حلو قوي يا سلوى النهاردة! هي إيه الحكاية؟
شكلي حلو عشان حاطة مكياج النهارده.. إيه رايك كده أحسن؟


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## ayed

foforum said:


> What means  حاط  In this line
> شكلك حلو قوي يا سلوى النهاردة! هي إيه الحكاية؟
> شكلي حلو عشان حاطة مكياج النهارده.. إيه رايك كده أحسن؟


She has already worn make-up


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## cherine

The verb حَطّ، يِحُطّ means to put, but here its means "to wear makeup".
The form فاعل here means "I'm doing", so in this sentence حاطة مكياج means I'm wearing make-up.

A similar structure: لابسة فستان she's wearing a dress, ماشية في الشارع she's walking in the street.


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## foforum

What is the right conjugation for حط here?
http://qutrub.arabeyes.org/?verb=حط...1&confirmed=1&haraka=فتحة&display_format=HTML


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## Hemza

foforum said:


> What is the right conjugation for حط here?
> http://qutrub.arabeyes.org/?verb=حط...1&confirmed=1&haraka=فتحة&display_format=HTML



This one:

http://qutrub.arabeyes.org/?verb=حط...all=1&display_format=HTML&colordiacritics=off



But it depends, because this website gives the SA conjugation and pronounciation. I think that for dialects, there are some changes (about vowels)


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## akhooha

foforum said:


> What is the right conjugation for حط here?
> http://qutrub.arabeyes.org/?verb=حط...1&confirmed=1&haraka=فتحة&display_format=HTML


Since you're asking about Egyptian Arabic, none of those would be correct, as they are all for MSA.
The conjugation for Egyptian Arabic would be:
أنا حطَّيْت / أحُطّ
إنت حطَّيْت / تِحُطّ
إنتي حَطَّيْتي / تِحُطّي
هو حَطّ / يِحُطّ
هي حَطِّت / تِحُطّ

إحنا حَطَّيْنا / نِحُطّ
إنتو حَطَّيْتوا / تِحُطّوا
همّ حَطّوا / يِحُطّوا


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## tounsi51

akhooha said:


> Since you're asking about Egyptian Arabic, none of those would be correct, as they are all for MSA.
> The conjugation for Egyptian Arabic would be:
> أنا حطَّيْت / أحُطّ
> إنت حطَّيْت / تِحُطّ
> إنتي حَطَّيْتي / تِحُطّي
> هو حَطّ / يِحُطّ
> هي حَطِّت / تِحُطّ
> 
> إحنا حَطَّيْنا / نِحُطّ
> إنتو حَطَّيْتوا / تِحُطّوا
> همّ حَطّوا / يِحُطّوا



I think you need to add the ب for the present like انا بحط


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## akhooha

tounsi51 said:


> I think you need to add the ب for the present like انا بحط


I was just showing the basic مضارع form. It is up to the O.P. to decide when he needs to prefix it with a ب (or, for that matter, with a ح). There are many cases in which it will not be prefixed with anything.


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## cherine

Just verifying if I'm seeing correctly: is that a shadda+fat7a on the ط ? If so, then you need to replace the fat7a with a kasra.


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## akhooha

If you're talking about the ط in حطَّيْت etc, yes --- that is a fatHa.
I thought the word would be pronounced Hatayt, Hataytii, etc.
Are you saying it should be pronounced Hatiit, Hatiitii, etc?


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## cherine

Yes. It's 7aTTeet, 7aTTeeto, 7aTTeena, 7aTTa...
And, the ح is pronounced مُفَخَّمة .


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## akhooha

Interesting. I guess I was hanging around people in Cairo who were speaking a weird dialect. I could swear that they would say 7aTTayt (where the "ay" rhymes with English "say") rather than 7aTTeet (where the "ee" rhymes with English "see").
Question: do you say "bayt" or "beet" for "house"?

(P.S. I was using capital "H" to indicate ح rather than "7")


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## dkarjala

cherine said:


> Yes. It's 7aTTeet, 7aTTeeto, 7aTTeena, 7aTTa...
> And, the ح is pronounced مُفَخَّمة .



Just to be clear, I think akhooha means by shadda+fat7a that it should rhyme with حبّيت...does it in _your _speech, Cherine? The transliteration can be tricky.


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## cherine

Yes, the transliteration can be tricky, but we usually use "ee" in the forum for long "e" sound. It's not like the English see, but like a long "a" sound. This is why you'll find many who use "a" to transliterate the word إيه .

We don't say bayt in Egypt but beet (rhymes with and sounds like the English bait). Same rhyme goes for حبيت، حطيت، عَدِّيت . If I put a fat7a above the shadda, I'd read these as 7abbayt, 7aTTayt, 3ddayt, when we don't pronounce them like this (these would sound Levantine to me).


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## akhooha

cherine said:


> ...We don't say bayt in Egypt but beet (rhymes with and sounds like the English bait). ...


I think we're both saying it the same way, but have our own ways to transcribe the sounds (both in Arabic and in English).
To me, "bayt" rhymes with and sounds like the English "bait".
As far as Arabic transcription goes, I would use the standard fat7a followed by a sukuun over the ya to transcribe this sound:
بَيْت
Following this pattern, I thought it accurate to use the same system to write حَطَّيْت .


> This is why you'll find many who use "a" to transliterate the word إيه .


I would have thought that the word would be written أيْه or just plain أيه as in "عايز أيه؟"


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## cherine

I'm starting to get confused 

Ok, I'll stop using we for now. I use bayt when I'm transliterating the fuS7a pronunciation of the word بَيْت , but I write beet (don't read it like the American English word beet, but more like mate, and maybe bait) which I would not write with either fat7a on the baa2 nor a sukuun on the yaa2.

The same goes for حطيت , I would not use a fat7a over the Taa2, because we (sorry, had to go back to we) do not say 7aTTayt, but حَطِّيت .


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## akhooha

cherine said:


> ... I use bayt when I'm transliterating the fuS7a pronunciation of the word بَيْت , but I write beet (don't read it like the American English word beet, but more like mate, and maybe bait) which I would not write with either fat7a on the baa2 nor a sukuun on the yaa2...


So, if I understand what you're saying, the fuS7a pronunciation of بيت is somehow different from its colloquial pronunciation? And that you would transcribe the colloquial pronunciation in Arabic as بِيت ? (with a kesra under the ba?)
And you would write عايز إيه rather than عايز أيه ? (If so, you might want to contact هناء مصطفى يوسف to let him know he should correct the title of his book.)


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## dkarjala

akhooha said:


> So, if I understand what you're saying, the fuS7a pronunciation of بيت is somehow different from its colloquial pronunciation? And that you would transcribe the colloquial pronunciation in Arabic as بِيت ? (with a kesra under the ba?)
> And you would write عايز إيه rather than عايز أيه ?



Here's the problem: the pronunciation Cherine is talking about is a purer _e-_sound without the off-glide (think French _ai_). But the historical Arabic pronunciation _should_ be an Arabic _a_ followed by a _y_. A difficulty here is that this is how we perceive and articulate e-sounds in English (we automatically add a 'y'). (cf. date, mate, late).

So when you say حطّيت don't let your tongue move toward the top of your mouth in the last syllable. But when you say _bayt_ in classical, you should. In colloquial, it's more like _bet_ (with a higher German/French _e_-sound)

In summary, the sound _ay_ has become _e_ in spoken colloquial Arabic, so actually, the writing with the _fat7a_ is a good way to write 'e' because otherwise you couldn't differentiate it from '7aTTiit' as you wrote above. Even the dual suffix is pronounced -en rather than -ayn.


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## akhooha

dkarjala said:


> ...In summary, the sound _ay_ has become _e_ in spoken colloquial Arabic, so actually, the writing with the _fat7a_ is a good way to write 'e' because otherwise you couldn't differentiate it from '7aTTiit' as you wrote above. ...


Thank you. That makes sense to me. Besides writing it with the fat7a (حَطَّيت), would you also recommend using the sukuun over the ya? (حَطَّيْت)?


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## dkarjala

akhooha said:


> Thank you. That makes sense to me. Besides writing it with the fat7a (حَطَّيت), would you also recommend using the sukuun over the ya? (حَطَّيْت)?



Well, honestly, I'd recommend you do what you see others doing. There is still no real consensus on dialect orthography - what I am saying is purely based on theoretical considerations. At the end of the day, there IS no word _haTTiit_, so it need not even be voweled to begin with. Maybe I've been doing Semitics too long, but I think the less vowels, the better sometimes.


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## cherine

akhooha said:


> So, if I understand what you're saying, the fuS7a pronunciation of بيت is somehow different from its colloquial pronunciation?


Yes, it is. Here are a couple of previous thread about this e/i transliteration and pronunciation: 1, 2.


> And that you would transcribe the colloquial pronunciation in Arabic as بِيت ? (with a kesra under the ba?)


As dkarjala said, we wouldn't put vowels in the first place, but if I wanted to put a vowel mark to indicate the colloquial pronunciation, then kasra looks closer to the pronunciation than fat7a.


> And you would write عايز إيه rather than عايز أيه ? (If so, you might want to contact هناء مصطفى يوسف to let him know he should correct the title of his book.)


Yes, definitely (عايز إيه and not أيه). And هناء is a she, and the books published these last few years are not really the most accurate reference for orthography; especially when they're written in colloquial. Let's not forget that there are no rules for writing dialects in the first place.


dkarjala said:


> Here's the problem: the pronunciation Cherine is talking about is a purer _e-_sound without the off-glide (think French _ai_). But the historical Arabic pronunciation _should_ be an Arabic _a_ followed by a _y_. A difficulty here is that this is how we perceive and articulate e-sounds in English (we automatically add a 'y'). (cf. date, mate, late).
> 
> So when you say حطّيت don't let your tongue move toward the top of your mouth in the last syllable. But when you say _bayt_ in classical, you should. In colloquial, it's more like _bet_ (with a higher German/French _e_-sound)
> 
> In summary, the sound _ay_ has become _e_ in spoken colloquial Arabic, so actually, the writing with the _fat7a_ is a good way to write 'e' because otherwise you couldn't differentiate it from '7aTTiit' as you wrote above. Even the dual suffix is pronounced -en rather than -ayn.


I still wouldn't put a fat7a  but I think your post clarifies things a bit more than I could do. Thank you.


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## akhooha

> ...Let's not forget that there are no rules for writing dialects in the first place.... I still wouldn't put a fat7a ...



There may be no rules for writing dialects, but it's interesting to note that the Hinds-Badawi Dictionary of Egyptian Arabic (p. 46) uses my version of Arabic transcription (أيه) (with the hamza in fat7a position) and your version of vowel Romanization (ee).


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## cherine

Interesting it is.  Maybe they wanted to avoid confusing إيه with the pronunciation "iih". But at least they made sure to translate the sound properly.


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## akhooha

> Maybe they wanted to avoid confusing إيه with the pronunciation "iih".


It would be important to avoid that confusion, wouldn't it?


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## dkarjala

cherine said:


> Interesting it is.  Maybe they wanted to avoid confusing إيه with the pronunciation "iih". But at least they made sure to translate the sound properly.



Definitely - and it also shows the 'classical' version of the word. It's just like _ai_ in French - it is always pronounced 'e' but still written as it once was. If one was to start a system of writing dialect in Arabic, it would make sense for -e- and -ii- to be written differently.


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