# To rise



## Defiance01

I'm trying to find the Arabic word that is the closest to "rise", as in the verb for "overcome" or "surpass" or "transcend" - similar to the singular form of "Rise" from the film title "The Dark Knight Rises". The automatic translators like Bing and Google are confusing the heck out of me. Any help would be much appreciated!


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## Crimson-Sky

The word تجاوز has the meaning of "overcome", "surpass" and "transcend".


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## jack_1313

تجاوز can also mean to abuse or go beyond the limits of what is proper (eg "transgress). I'd be weary of that when it comes to using the term in places without clear context.


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## Crimson-Sky

There is in fact an expression for "go beyond the limits of what is proper" : تجاوز حدوده. "to abuse" doesn't share anything with تجاوز (v.) (as far as I know anyway) -Do you have an example ?


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## jack_1313

Yeah, it's used in the article you've seen me working on at the moment in a few different places. For example, paragraph seven starts with:

اوضح برادلي انه بعد ان يأس من تنبيه الرأي العام الاميركي عما يجري من تجاوزات في العراق على الصحافة الاميركية ، لجأ الى نشرها في موقع ويكيليكي

I'm sure I've seen the مصدر used like that quite a few times, but I'm guessing the verb itself, when used as a verb, wouldn't carry that meaning (i.e. the direct object of the verb isn't going to be the victim of the transgression). "Abuse" is probably wasn't the right word because it's quite context-specific.


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## Defiance01

But " تجاوز " doesn't actually mean "rise", does it?


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## Crimson-Sky

jack_1313 said:


> Yeah, it's used in the article you've seen me working on at the moment in a few different places. For example, paragraph seven starts with:
> 
> اوضح برادلي انه بعد ان يأس من تنبيه الرأي العام الاميركي عما يجري من تجاوزات في العراق على الصحافة الاميركية ، لجأ الى نشرها في موقع ويكيليكي
> 
> I'm sure I've seen the مصدر used like that quite a few times, but I'm guessing the verb itself, when used as a verb, wouldn't carry that meaning (i.e. the direct object of the verb isn't going to be the victim of the transgression). "Abuse" is probably wasn't the right word because it's quite context-specific.



تجاوز in this context is a noun. تجاوز (n.) is a word with a lot of meanings, "violation" is the only meaning (I know of) close to "abuse". That being said, تجاوز (n.) doesn't mean "abuse".



Defiance01 said:


> But " تجاوز " doesn't actually mean "rise", does it?



No it doesn't. "rise (v.)" means ارتفع, عَلاَ, صَعَدَ...


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## Defiance01

Crimson-Sky said:


> No it doesn't. "rise (v.)" means ارتفع, عَلاَ, صَعَدَ...



Hmmm....but what about the words that were originally in my thread title (not sure who changed it):

نهض and ترتفع (or يرتفع ) ? 

Don't those mean "rise (v.)" in this sense, too?

Admittedly, I'm obviously in the dark about what difference the positioning of the dots makes (ترتفع vs يرتفع )


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## jack_1313

Crimson-Sky said:


> That being said, تجاوز (n.) doesn't mean "abuse".



I'd say there are lots contexts where abuse would be a reasonable rendition of تجاوز (n.) in English. For example, in Arabic can't I say something like تجاوز السلطة? In English we would say "abuse of power." What about تجاوزات الشرطة? Here we say "police abuses." What about تجاوزات حقوق الإنسان? In English it's almost always "human rights abuses."

On the original topic: do you think some variation of نهض would work in this context, or is it too closely tied to the idea of "rising" out of bed?
Edit: woops, Defiance posted نهض while I was typing


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## Crimson-Sky

Defiance01 said:


> Hmmm....but what about the words that were originally in my thread title (not sure who changed it):
> 
> نهض and ترتفع (or يرتفع ) ?
> 
> Don't those mean "rise (v.)" in this sense, too?



To some extent, نهض conveys the meaning of "to rise".



Defiance01 said:


> Admittedly, I'm obviously in the dark about what difference the positioning of the dots makes (ترتفع vs يرتفع )



It has something to do with conjugation. The verb is actually "ارتفع".


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## Defiance01

Crimson-Sky said:


> It has something to do with conjugation. The verb is actually "ارتفع".



Ahh, that makes a little sense - if the root form "to rise" is " ارتفع ", I can see how the implied "you" form ("you rise") could be " ترتفع ", which is something all the online translators seem to agree on.

I really appreciate all the help so far, although I have to admit I'm still somewhat in the dark about the difference between نهض and ترتفع .....


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## إسكندراني

تغلّب
فارس الظلام يغلب literally
نهوض فارس الظلام idiomatically and actually


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## Defiance01

إسكندراني said:


> تغلّب
> فارس الظلام يغلب literally
> نهوض فارس الظلام idiomatically and actually



Interesting..... " نهوض " seems to be related to " نهض " - I'm guessing the former is the noun and " نهض " is the verb, and the verb is more what I'm looking for....


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## jack_1313

Is this single word destined to appear on a body part?  If so, we'd better be doubly sure that the connotations are what you are looking for. Here's some of the meanings that I associate with each term, but I'm no substitute for the native speakers here!

تغلب: overcoming something, triumphing over something, emerging triumphant (no literal upward motion implied)
نهض: rising up, standing up, geting out of bed. Words from this root are also used in reference to political movements and historical changes, eg نهضة awakening, rising up. عصر النهضة - the Renaissance. نهوض الدولة العثمانية - rise of the Ottoman empire.
ارتفع: literally moving upwards, becoming higher (eg a number), increasing
صعد: ascending (eg a set of stairs), climbing, climbing aboard something
تجاوز: overcoming something, stepping over the boarders, crossing through difficult area or phase, stepping outside boundaries (of what is proper), (no literal upward motion implied)

I've got a feeling your after something from the نهض root, but some more information could be helpful to make sure you get not just the right word, but the right form of the word. If you ask for just the verb, you're going to get something in the form of "he rose."



Defiance01 said:


> Interesting..... " نهوض " seems to be related to " نهض " - I'm guessing the former is the noun and " نهض " is the verb



نهوض is one of several verbal nouns ofنهض.


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## Crimson-Sky

jack_1313 said:


> نهوض is one of several verbal nouns ofنهض.



several verbal nouns ?


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## Defiance01

jack_1313 said:


> Is this single word destined to appear on a body part?  If so, we'd better be doubly sure that the connotations are what you are looking for.



Ding ding ding! Hence my "measure ten times, cut once" approach 




jack_1313 said:


> Here's some of the meanings that I associate with each term, but I'm no substitute for the native speakers here!
> 
> تغلب: overcoming something, triumphing over something, emerging triumphant (no literal upward motion implied)
> نهض: rising up, standing up, geting out of bed. Words from this root are also used in reference to political movements and historical changes, eg نهضة awakening, rising up. عصر النهضة - the Renaissance. نهوض الدولة العثمانية - rise of the Ottoman empire.
> ارتفع: literally moving upwards, becoming higher (eg a number), increasing
> صعد: ascending (eg a set of stairs), climbing, climbing aboard something
> تجاوز: overcoming something, stepping over the boarders, crossing through difficult area or phase, stepping outside boundaries (of what is proper), (no literal upward motion implied)
> 
> I've got a feeling your after something from the نهض root, but some more information could be helpful to make sure you get not just the right word, but the right form of the word. If you ask for just the verb, you're going to get something in the form of "he rose."



Ahh, now THIS seems like a big help. I am looking for the "command" version of the verb, in present tense, as in telling someone else to rise; and I'm not referring to literal upword motion, but metaphorical - as in, "to overcome". 

So it sounds to me that if the word " تغلب " is ever translated as "rise", then it's exactly what I'm looking for. And it seems like " تجاوز " would be my second-best bet, followed by " نهض ", correct?


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## إسكندراني

Well, the closest verb to 'rise'/'ascend'/etc. is ارتقى يرتقي.
This, however, is not the meaning intended in the phrase 'the dark knight rises'.


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## Josh_

Hi all,

I'm going to throw another one in the fray: قهر (_qahr_).  I've always liked this word.  It means 'overcoming' as in 'conquering' or 'vanquishing.' The Arabic name for Cairo (القاهرة) comes from this root. 

 I think it fits nicely with the theme of the movie "The Dark Knight Rises" in which we see the protagonist vanquish his enemies as well as overcome his own personal demons.

The command form of the verb is اقهر (_iqhar_).


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## jack_1313

Crimson-Sky said:


> several verbal nouns ?



As far as I know نهض (nahD) and نهوض are both مصدر of نهض (v.). I was also thinking about نهضة, but I guess that one isn't considered to be a مصدر?



Defiance01 said:


> So it sounds to me that if the word " تغلب " is ever translated as "rise", then it's exactly what I'm looking for.



I don't think "rise" would be a natural translation for قهر, تجاوز or تغلب. All three words could be used to express the idea of overcoming. But تغلب and قهر get this meaning from their connection to the idea of defeating something or someone. تجاوز, on the other hand, gets it from its core meaning of crossing or passing through something. The problem with نهض, on the other hand, is that it captures the idea of actual upward motion as well as rising to prominence, standing up for something, rebelling etc, but doesn't really mean "to overcome and obstacle" - at least I've never seen it used that way.



> Hence my "measure ten times, cut once" approach


That's a really good idea - have you seen this site?


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## Crimson-Sky

jack_1313 said:


> As far as I know نهض (nahD) and نهوض are both مصدر of نهض (v.). I was also thinking about نهضة, but I guess that one isn't considered to be a مصدر?



"نهضة" can't be a maSdar...-"نهوض" is a perfect maSdar .


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## Defiance01

jack_1313 said:


> That's a really good idea - have you seen this site?



I had not, but thanks for the additional warning! 

Someone else had mentioned that " قم " might be the most fitting word for what I'm looking for, too....?

It seems like part of the problem I'm having is that the word "rise" just doesn't have a "phoenix from the ashes" quality in Arabic as it often does in English. It seems I may have to choose between either a word that literally translates as "rise" OR one that means "triumphing", but not both....and if that's the case, I think I would prefer to go with a literal translation for the word "rise" - again, still as a present-tense command with an implied "you" (i.e. "you rise"). 

So, after everyone's wonderful advice and suggestions, which I greatly appreciate - it seems I may be back where I started: either " ترتفع " or "نهض " (unless " نهض " is past tense?).......


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## Crimson-Sky

Defiance01 said:


> I had not, but thanks for the additional warning!
> 
> Someone else had mentioned that " قم " might be the most fitting word for what I'm looking for, too....?
> 
> It seems like part of the problem I'm having is that the word "rise" just doesn't have a "phoenix from the ashes" quality in Arabic as it often does in English. It seems I may have to choose between either a word that literally translates as "rise" OR one that means "triumphing", but not both....and if that's the case, I think I would prefer to go with a literal translation for the word "rise" - again, still as a present-tense command with an implied "you" (i.e. "you rise").
> 
> So, after everyone's wonderful advice and suggestions, which I greatly appreciate - it seems I may be back where I started: either " ترتفع " or "نهض " (unless " نهض " is past tense?).......



"The dark knight rises" means literally : فارس الظلام ينهض. The verbs are ارتفع and نَهَضَ.


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## إسكندراني

قم means 'get up' in the imperative.
Also, I don't understand this obsession with tattoos. It seems one of the stupidest thing someone can do to their body.


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## Josh_

jack_1313 said:


> As far as I know نهض (nahD) and نهوض are both مصدر of نهض (v.). I was also thinking about نهضة, but I guess that one isn't considered to be a مصدر?


 نهضة is an instance noun (اسم مرة); a single occurence of النهض.



jack_1313 said:


> I don't think "rise" would be a natural translation for قهر, تجاوز or تغلب. All three words could be used to express the idea of overcoming. But تغلب and قهر get this meaning from their connection to the idea of defeating something or someone. تجاوز, on the other hand, gets it from its core meaning of crossing or passing through something.


That is true, they don't really lend themselves to a translation of 'rising.'



Defiance01 said:


> I had not, but thanks for the additional warning!
> 
> Someone else had mentioned that " قم " might be the most fitting word for what I'm looking for, too....?
> 
> It seems like part of the problem I'm having is that the word "rise" just doesn't have a "phoenix from the ashes" quality in Arabic as it often does in English. It seems I may have to choose between either a word that literally translates as "rise" OR one that means "triumphing", but not both....and if that's the case, I think I would prefer to go with a literal translation for the word "rise" - again, still as a present-tense command with an implied "you" (i.e. "you rise").
> 
> So, after everyone's wonderful advice and suggestions, which I greatly appreciate - it seems I may be back where I started: either " ترتفع " or "نهض " (unless " نهض " is past tense?).......


I think no matter what you choose you will have to explain to people what it means to you.

If you want something that naturally translates as "rise!" then you'll have to go with "ارتفع!" or "انهض!", I suppose.

However, perhaps you could go with a phrase instead.  Maybe something like "ارفع نفسك!" (literally: raise yourself (up)!), which, I believe, lends itself to a more metaphorical understanding like the one you're after, not just a literal 'make yourself higher' (in a spatial sense). 

Maybe you could say something like "ارفع نفسك واسمو!." 



إسكندراني said:


> قم means 'get up' in the imperative.
> Also, I don't understand this obsession with tattoos. It seems one of the stupidest thing someone can do to their body.


Personal opinions notwithstanding, we're here to offer translation help, not pass judgment.


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## Defiance01

Crimson-Sky said:


> "The dark knight rises" means literally : فارس الظلام ينهض. The verbs are ارتفع and نَهَضَ.



Aha! The root " نَهَضَ ", again. This is definitely what I'm leaning toward, now....




إسكندراني said:


> قم means 'get up' in the imperative.
> Also, I don't understand this obsession with tattoos. It seems one of the stupidest thing someone can do to their body.



Heh. We're all entitled to our opinions. 



Josh_ said:


> I think no matter what you choose you will have to explain to people what it means to you.
> 
> If you want something that naturally translates as "rise!" then you'll have to go with "ارتفع!" or "انهض!", I suppose.



Probably true. And " انهض " would be the more appropriate of the two most likely, yes?


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## cherine

Hi guys,

I'll keep my personal opinion about tattoos to myself because it is outside the scope of the forum anyway. But allow me a personal advise (or a few):
1- If you have Egyptian friends or plan to go to Egypt one day, avoid نهض and related word because it has acquired political connotations (related to the rising/renaissance/reform project of the current government مشروع النهضة). So you can become an object of sarcasm from some.
2- If you don't need to worry about this, then you may to consider that انهض can be understood as "get up" (from a fall). Maybe this is close to what you're looking for.
3- ارتفع = rise up. It's good. But it wouldn't be associated to the dark night or the phoenix.
4- The verbs تغلب، اقهر، اهزم، انتصر are all about overcoming or conquering an enemy (within or without, material or moral). Just in case you feel like considering one of them.


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## jack_1313

cherine said:


> 1- If you have Egyptian friends or plan to go to Egypt one day, avoid نهض and related word because it has acquired political connotations



That's a really good point!


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## Defiance01

cherine said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I'll keep my personal opinion about tattoos to myself because it is outside the scope of the forum anyway. But allow me a personal advise (or a few):
> 1- If you have Egyptian friends or plan to go to Egypt one day, avoid نهض and related word because it has acquired political connotations (related to the rising/renaissance/reform project of the current government مشروع النهضة). So you can become an object of sarcasm from some.
> 2- If you don't need to worry about this, then you may to consider that انهض can be understood as "get up" (from a fall). Maybe this is close to what you're looking for.
> 3- ارتفع = rise up. It's good. But it wouldn't be associated to the dark night or the phoenix.
> 4- The verbs تغلب، اقهر، اهزم، انتصر are all about overcoming or conquering an enemy (within or without, material or moral). Just in case you feel like considering one of them.



Well, even though I may visit Egypt at some point, I can just wear a t-shirt that covers the tattoo up 

But I think " انهض " seems to be the closest thing to what I'm looking for, as the translation for "rise up" in this sense.

Many thanks for all the help, everyone!!


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## jack_1313

Hi Defiance, glad you found something appropriate.

One final word of input - if you go to the end of the page that I linked you to earlier, you can see the difference between "Times New Roman / Ariel" type writing and actual stylistic calligraphy. I'd encourage you to find a calligrapher to come up with a design for your tattoo - it will look ten times nicer  If you do that, just make sure that they understand that the word is اِنهض, the imperative of نهض, and not أنهض, which means "he incited ..." or "he made ... rise". In practice, both words can be written as انهض, but the inclusion of diacritical marks would distinguish them.


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## Defiance01

Hello all - a few months ago, I posted on here asking about the word "rise" in Arabic. My understanding from that thread was that "ارتفع" and "انهض" both mean "rise", but the first one implies literal upward motion and the second implies waking from sleep, or (loosely) overcoming hardship.

So even though it's been a few months, I have a couple follow-up questions:

1) Am I correct in understanding the difference between "ارتفع" and "انهض" ?

2) Could someone explain the difference between the following variations on "انهض":

انهض
ينهض 
الانتفاض
إنهض
اِنهض

Thanks!


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## jack_1313

Defiance01 said:


> 2) Could someone explain the difference between the following variations on "انهض":
> 
> انهض = imperative form, i.e. _rise!_
> ينهض = third person masculine singular, present tense verb, i.e. _he rises_
> الانتفاض = a verbal noun meaning to shake (intransitive) or tremble. Not a variation of نهض, but a word derived from a different root.
> إنهض = a misspelling of the imperative
> اِنهض = imperative form with a diacritical mark (vowel) added in to make sure it isn't misunderstood as the third person, past tense, masculine, singular verb أنهض (which really ought to be written with a _hamza_ anyway).


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## Defiance01

Thanks! That's pretty much exactly what I was hoping for, on part (2)


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