# pronunciation: excerpt



## Botitas36

Dear forum-goers,

I have been listening to NPR the past few days and have noticed a very strong pronunciation of the "p" in "excerpt" by several of the hosts. My whole life I have pronounced the word without sounding the "p" so tonight I consulted Meriam Webster and, to my bemused astonishment, discovered that my pronunciation was incorrect.

So I ask: how do you all pronounce the word "excerpt"? (The noun, not the verb, mind you, but either way according to the dictionary the "p" is sounded while what varies between noun and verb is the stress on the first or second syllable, respectfully. 

Nathan


----------



## natkretep

I have always pronounced the p. Perhaps the p-less pronunciation is regional?


----------



## Cenzontle

I've never heard "excerpt" without the [p] sound.
It's a fairly bookish word, making it less likely to vary regionally.


----------



## velisarius

I sort of pronounce the p in that I don't say "excert". I just press my lips together before making the "t" so that there's a hardly audible "p". (Same for "ptarmigan" or "exempt".) In Greek I do pronounce π before τ, so it isn't a lazy English habit I've fallen into.


----------



## Einstein

I'm not sure if I've ever used the word, but hearing it said I've always thought it was without the "p".

PS I think "exempt" contains a slightly more audible "p". Again "ptarmigan" is a word I've read but never said - and maybe never heard!


----------



## sound shift

I don't pronounce the 'p' in "excerpt".


----------



## Giorgio Spizzi

Hullo, sound.

It's instructive to know that you don't.

"Excerpt" can be either a _noun_ or a _verb_.

The Received Pronounciation of the _noun_ is either / ek'sɜːpt/ or /eg'zɜːpt/

The Received Pronounciation of the _verb_ is either /ek'sɜːpt / or /ɪk'sɜːpt/

Obviously, there may be some who do not _release_ the /p/ phoneme at all, like you, 

and others who _release_ it only partially. 

GS


----------



## suzi br

sound shift said:


> I don't pronounce the 'p' in "excerpt".


Neither do I, perhaps because, as previously established, we live quite close together -  so our regional quirks tend to be the same!


----------



## Pedro y La Torre

I definitely pronounce the p, and quite a hard p at that.


----------



## natkretep

Giorgio Spizzi said:


> The Received Pronounciation of the _noun_ is either / ek'sɜːpt/ or /eg'zɜːpt/
> 
> The Received Pronounciation of the _verb_ is either /ek'sɜːpt / or /ɪk'sɜːpt/



Really? The stress does not move to the first syllable for the noun? I have /'eksɜːpt/.


----------



## Giorgio Spizzi

Hullo, nat.
A very reasonable question, of course.
I consulted the latest edition of Jones' English Pronouncing Dictionary, which gave me the above pronunciations.
At home, though, I collated them with those of the 1976 edition, which are, for the _noun_, 'eksəːpt [ɪk'səːpt, ek'səːpt]. (Notice the Schwa) 
Times, just like the perception of language evolution, change. 

All the best.

GS


----------



## JustKate

I always pronounce the "p," too - fairly distinctly, I think. I don't believe I've ever heard it pronounced any other way. Maybe I need to visit Suzi's and Sound Shift's neck of the woods?


----------



## Myridon

I pronounce the 'p' and the 't'.  I know people who pronounce the 'p' without the 't', but not the other way around.


----------



## Einstein

suzi br said:


> Neither do I, perhaps because, as previously established, we live quite close together -  so our regional quirks tend to be the same!


Well, I'm from Kent but I agree with you two! But as I said above, it's a word I use so little that I don't remember having long conversations about excerpts with my friends, so my view is personal, rather than regional.


----------



## Giorgio Spizzi

Dear all.

A "p-less" pronunciation of the word would be ek'sɜːt, and it's hard for me to imagine anyone pronouncing this way.
Rather, what I think is that many people articulate the "p" sound (ie press their lips together) but do not release the "voiceless bilabial stop". This gives them the _impression_ of pronouncing it. One can easily see this by looking at the lips of the speaker — or the speaker can look at his own mouth in a mirror.
Those who maintain that they do pronounce the "p" might consider holding a sheet of paper in front of their mouth while pronouncing the word. If the sheet moves away from the face (due to the emission of air for the release of the "p"), then that is proof that they in fact _articulate_ the sound.
I suspect not very many will, though.

GS  

I suspect that those


----------



## suzi br

I don't see why you think we cannot say this without sounding the p. 

Say:  Exert yourself to eat a desert and you have the same sort of sound! It sounds a lot like exert the way I say it. The only variation is how I sound the X .


----------



## Giorgio Spizzi

Hullo, suzi.

I certainly didn't express my thought clearly. When I say _"...and it's hard for me to imagine anyone pronouncing this way_," I'm not saying that I don't believe anyone is _capable_ of pronouncing /ek'sɜːt/. Obviously, _any_ English speaker can. 
My impression is that I'd find rather improbable for anyone to pronounce /ek'sɜːt/ when they want to express the idea of "excerpt". 

All the best 

GS


----------



## Parla

In the US, the pronunciation includes the "p", although I suppose there may be isolated regional exceptions.


----------



## Myridon

Giorgio Spizzi said:


> A "p-less" pronunciation of the word would be ek'sɜːt, and it's hard for me to imagine anyone pronouncing this way.
> Rather, what I think is that many people ...


I think that many people who the word from those around them and would, therefore, not necessarily realize that they were supposed to even try to pronounce a 'p'.  There's no "p" in "receipt."


----------



## Einstein

Myridon said:


> I think that many people (...) would, therefore, not necessarily realize that they were supposed to even try to pronounce a 'p'.  There's no "p" in "receipt."


That's the kind of analogy I made. In fact it was only seeing this thread that I realised I was supposed to say the "p".


----------



## pob14

Giorgio Spizzi said:


> Rather, what I think is that many people articulate the "p" sound (ie press their lips together) but do not release the "voiceless bilabial stop". . . Those who maintain that they do pronounce the "p" might consider holding a sheet of paper in front of their mouth while pronouncing the word.


I tried this, and indeed I _don't_ release the voiceless bilabial stop, which is not something I have occasion to write very often.  It's the same as "except," and I would say I "pronounce" the P there also, even though I don't do any labia releasing.  I suppose I should say I "articulate" the P.


----------



## timpeac

suzi br said:


> I don't see why you think we cannot say this without sounding the p.
> 
> Say:  Exert yourself to eat a desert and you have the same sort of sound! It sounds a lot like exert the way I say it. The only variation is how I sound the X .



I agree (and I have since read your clarification GS). Just to be clear I would pronounce "exert" and "excerpt" identically - I didn't realise that the "p" here was anything other than an orthographical relic. I'm quite surprised to hear that some natives do pronounce it.


----------



## natkretep

timpeac said:


> Just to be clear I would pronounce "exert" and "excerpt" identically.



Interesting! Those would differ for me also in terms of stress placement, and that I'd use /gz/ for _e*x*ert_ and /ks/ for _e*xc*erpt_​.


----------



## timpeac

natkretep said:


> Interesting! Those would differ for me also in terms of stress placement, and that I'd use /gz/ for _e*x*ert_ and /ks/ for _e*xc*erpt_​.



Yes, for me too. Sorry for not being clear - it's the second syllable that would be identical, in other words no slightest hint of a movement towards a "p".


----------



## Giorgio Spizzi

Just a final thought.
I believe everyone in the English speaking world accept the idea that the word "apt" _is_ pronounced /æpt/, but if they "looked at the man in the mirror" they would discover that they _do not_ in fact pronounce the "p" sound. Still, the actual _sequence of sounds_  which the listener perceives is "different" from that of /æt/. This may be due to visual pointers or to the mental interpolation of a "p" due to the the lexico-semantic _expectations_ of the listener.

All the best.
GS


----------



## Pedro y La Torre

Giorgio Spizzi said:


> Just a final thought.
> I believe everyone in the English speaking world accept the idea that the word "apt" _is_ pronounced /æpt/, but if they "looked at the man in the mirror" they would discover that they _do not_ in fact pronounce the "p" sound.



I can assure you that my "apt" contains a definite p sound.


----------



## PaulQ

On rare occasions, I have heard the '*p*' sound in "excerpt" but I have always heard it as an over-correction, compare with Myridon's 'receipt', but the pronunciation guides do not support me.


----------



## timpeac

Pedro y La Torre said:


> I can assure you that my "apt" contains a definite p sound.


Yes, mine too. GS, I'm intrigued. If you don't think people really do pronounce the P in apt, what is it then that sets it apart from "at"?


----------



## Einstein

Yes, Giorgio, I think you've exaggerated here. My pronunciation of "apt" rhymes with "rapt" and "wrapped". If I don't pronounce the "p" in "excerpt" it's not because I find it difficult (the last syllable should rhyme with "usurped"), but simply because hearing other people I thought they didn't pronounce it.


----------



## JustKate

Mine, too. Apt, rapt, wrapped, flapped - all of these rhyme for me. And if I looked in the mirror, I'd see my lips forming a "p" sound.

And yes, there is definitely a "p" in _excerpt_ when I say it. It's not hypercorrection, it's just the way I say it and the way I hear it said. It rhymes roughly with _burped_ and _usurped_. As somebody (it was Myridon, I just found out) said earlier in the thread, when I hear others prounounce _excerpt_, if any consonate sound is left off it's usually the "t."


----------



## Loob

I have what I would call an 'unreleased' /p/ in _excerpt_, as I do in _apt, rapt, wrapped, flapped_.

This Wiki article has a more precise description: 





> In most dialects of English, the first stop of a cluster has no audible release, as in _apt_ [ˈæp̚t], _doctor_ [ˈdɒk̚tər], or _logged on_ [ˌlɒɡ̚dˈɒn].  Although such sounds are frequently described as "unreleased", the  reality is that the two consonants overlap so that the release of the  first takes place during the hold of the second, masking the first  consonant's release and making it inaudible.[2] This can lead to cross-articulations that seem very much like deletions or complete assimilation. For example, _hundred pounds_ may sound like [hʌndɹɛ*b* pʰaundz] but X-ray[3] and electropalatographic[4] studies demonstrate that inaudible and possibly weakened contacts may still be made, so that the second /d/ in _hundred pounds_ does not entirely assimilate a labial place of articulation, but rather co-occurs with it.


Like others, I'm sure that in connected speech I often drop the final /t/ of _excerpt, wrapped _etc before a consonant.  I think I keep the unreleased /p/, though, even when I drop the /t/.


----------



## kamabalagi

I never pronounce the P in "excerpt" as well. I learnt the word phonetically before even noticing how the word was spelt and from memory, most other people in NZ also don't pronounce the P (or if they do, it must be very faint and barely audible to my ears).

As for the P in "apt", I do pronounce that. 

But even if "excerpt" sounds like "exert" and "apt" sounds like "at", well English is full of homophones (e.g: to/too/two, where/we're/wear, their/there/they're, etc.) So I'm sure people would still be able to understand them in context.

Also to be honest, I've never heard or used the verb form of "excerpt", so I'm presuming it to be quite rare. In which case there wouldn't be much confusion between the noun form of "excerpt" without the P (pronounced "EX-cert" and "exert" (pronounced "ex-CERT").


----------



## Giorgio Spizzi

Hullo, timpeac.

_"If you don't think people really do pronounce the P in apt, what is it then that sets it apart from "at"?"
_
A very god question, tim.

My impression is that the _native speakers of English who do not release the plosive_ must have a way of perceiving differences between "at" and "a(p)t". Among them, and tentatively:

1. visual contact 
2. context (and predictability of a certain element rather than another)
3. a possibly "longer" "a" sound in a(p)t vis-à-vis the "a" in "at"
...

GS


----------



## PaulQ

If I put my hand in front of my mouth as I say "*apt*" I can feel the two plosives *p* and *t*. If I then say *at*, I feel only one. That said, there are some accents in which the *p *is hardly there at all but the *a* sound is longer: aa(p)t


----------



## Einstein

I think there's a difficulty in comparing "at" and "apt", because "at" is generally unstressed. To hear it stressed we have to consider it in a sentence like "Please arrive at or before 10 o'clock".
Having said this I don't find that the "a" in "apt" is longer, but the difference is that there's a slight unvoiced pause before exploding the "t".


----------



## sound shift

I agree with Paul (post 34). I'd go further and say that I can hear as well as feel the movement of the lips into (or possibly out of) the right position for the "p" in "apt".

With me, it is not a case of /æ/ + unvoiced pause + /t/ (Einstein at post 35): The lips would not need to go into position for /p/, but in any case I can't for the life of me pronounce this sequence .

Giorgio at post 33 talks about not releasing the plosive but I reckon there has to be a release to enable us to get from the /p/ to the /t/; it's just done very quickly.


----------



## Giorgio Spizzi

Yes, sound.

I believe there's a very brief contact between the upper and lower lip, but no "accumulation" of air from the lungs. That's why when the lips part there's no explosion and the transition from /æ/ to /t/ is (acoustically) smooth. 

GS


----------



## timpeac

Giorgio Spizzi said:


> Yes, sound.
> 
> I believe there's a very brief contact between the upper and lower lip, but no "accumulation" of air from the lungs. That's why when the lips part there's no explosion and the transition from /æ/ to /t/ is (acoustically) smooth.
> 
> GS


There is most definitely an accumulation of air and an explosion for the /p/ before the /t/ when I pronounce it. There are 2 separate tiny explosions - not even 2 which largely overlap.


----------



## wandle

For me, the pronunciation and the spelling have always been key points of difference between 'excerpt' on the one hand and 'exert' and 'except' on the other. Failure to distinguish these three in pronunciation seems to me a clear error.

Once I learned that 'excerpt' derives from the Latin verb *carpo*, meaning 'seize' or 'pluck' (as in *carpe diem*), the distinction became all the clearer.


----------



## Forero

Giorgio Spizzi said:


> Hullo, timpeac.
> 
> _"If you don't think people really do pronounce the P in apt, what is it then that sets it apart from "at"?"
> _
> A very god question, tim.
> 
> My impression is that the _native speakers of English who do not release the plosive_ must have a way of perceiving differences between "at" and "a(p)t". Among them, and tentatively:
> 
> 1. visual contact
> 2. context (and predictability of a certain element rather than another)
> 3. a possibly "longer" "a" sound in a(p)t vis-à-vis the "a" in "at"
> ...
> 
> GS


The difference is audible. We hear the sound of the lips closing.

If there is a vowel length difference, the vowel is shorter, not longer, before a cluster than before a single stop. However, we can hear the same words pronounced with different vowel lengths and that does not make the _p_ sound unrecognizable.

Leaving the (unreleased) _p_ sound out of _excerpt_ seems strange to me, but I _have_ heard people pronounce _accessory_ (with an "x" sound) as if it were _assessory_ (without the "k" part of the "x"). To me the unreleased _p_ of _excerpt_ and the unreleased _k_ of _accessory_ are clearly audible, and these words sound wrong without them.


----------



## Forero

sound shift said:


> I agree with Paul (post 34). I'd go further and say that I can hear as well as feel the movement of the lips into (or possibly out of) the right position for the "p" in "apt".
> 
> With me, it is not a case of /æ/ + unvoiced pause + /t/ (Einstein at post 35): The lips would not need to go into position for /p/, but in any case I can't for the life of me pronounce this sequence .
> 
> Giorgio at post 33 talks about not releasing the plosive but I reckon there has to be a release to enable us to get from the /p/ to the /t/; it's just done very quickly.


I put my tongue into position while my lips are still closed, so the release of the _p_, if there is any, is not audible. It is the bilabial closure that I make audible.


----------



## Cenzontle

> We hear the sound of the lips closing.


Hi, Forero.  I hope, by the above, you don't mean the slapping of lip on lip.
But yes, acoustic phoneticians, with their sound spectrograms,
are aware that a stop like the /p/, even if not released,
can be recognized by the *transition* to it from the preceding vowel
(or "vocoid", if you don't like calling the /r/ a vowel).
If I remember correctly, the first and second formants on the spectrogram curve toward each other for a labial sound.


----------



## Alexandra McGee

Myridon said:


> I pronounce the 'p' and the 't'.  I know people who pronounce the 'p' without the 't', but not the other way around.



Yes- i agree with Myridon. I close my mouth on the p, but have no aspiration out and the t is just kind of closed inside my mouth...


----------



## Giorgio Spizzi

Hullo, Forero 

"It is the bilabial closure that I make audible."

Audible? The bilabial _closure_? Wonder whether "seeable" would be a tad more appropriate?

GS


----------



## Forero

Giorgio Spizzi said:


> Hullo, Forero
> 
> "It is the bilabial closure that I make audible."
> 
> Audible? The bilabial _closure_? Wonder whether "seeable" would be a tad more appropriate?
> 
> GS


Not at all. I meant what I said. The bilabial closure is audible in audio recordings.


----------



## Giorgio Spizzi

I stay corrected.

GS


----------



## Derekakis

For me where it gets even more difficult to pronounce is in the plural, *exerpts*. It's even harder because we've got four consonants in a row – _r, p, t, s_.
Although maybe it's less difficult for our friends with non-rhotic accents.


----------



## natkretep

If you've got clusters like that, careful speakers will split them up. I have a non-rhotic accent, and I will still say excerp-ts. I do the same thing for des-ks, res-ts and lis-ps.


----------



## JulianStuart

I missed thsi thread the first few times around
For those who eschew the p in excerpt, is the p in _interrupt_ also an "orthographic relic"?
(I've never heard a p in ptarmigan, but then I shouldn't have heard it in helicopter if it's not present in pterodactyl)


----------



## suzi br

JulianStuart said:


> For those who eschew the p in excerpt, is the p in _interrupt_ also an "orthographic relic"?


Welcome to the pleasure dome! 
In answer to your question - No, but then the pattern is not the same, there are not 3 consecutive consonants in interrupt.


----------



## JulianStuart

suzi br said:


> Welcome to the pleasure dome!
> In answer to your question - No, but then the pattern is not the same, there are not 3 consecutive consonants in interrupt.


With my non-rhotic accent, there are only two in exce(r)pt 

(Edit: I think that's why I asked.  For rhotic accents interrupt would not be a good parallel)


----------



## Forero

I don't see how an "r" could make the "pt" any different. Would anyone omit the "p" in "helped" or "usurped"?


----------



## JulianStuart

Forero said:


> I don't see how an "r" could make the "pt" any different. Would anyone omit the "p" in "helped" or "usurped"?


Me neither, but I addressed that to those who omit it from excerpt


----------



## jmichaelm

Going back to the OP, I too grew up in Oklahoma. There is a definite regional accent that you find in OK that tends to drop certain consonants.
excerpt -> excert
wolf -> woof
assault -> assaut


----------

