# zai



## Interprete

Hello, 

I don't understand the use of 在 in the following sentence:
近日，上海的一家孟母堂以特殊的教育方式引起争论。有人说，这是*在*向学校教育发起挑战。
Is it there to insist on the fact that this is happening right now?

Thank you in advance.


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## yc6489

Yes. 在 can be short for 正在.


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## Interprete

Thank you! And in this case, what is the use of 是 in this sentence (just before 在?) Thanks!


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## IDK

是 signifie "être". Ici, le mot 在 ne signifie rien.  Tu peux l'avoir ou ne l'avoir pas. Il n'est pas plus important.


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## 皮皮鲁

Actually it would sound better if the character 以 should be replaced by the character 的.As for the character 在 in this case, it does not emphasize the fact that this is happening right now.Contrary to that, it has nothing to do with time here.It serves more like a intensifier underlining the speaker's belief that what has been told is real.


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## coleev

Actually. *在* here means "Estar" in Spanish or "Be doing sth"in English. 
The tense could be both Present or Past. Or it is just RELATANDO a  certain fact.


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## Interprete

Guys, thanks a lot for your answers, but you are contradicting yourselves. Who should I believe lol Who in here is not a native speaker?


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## BODYholic

IDK said:


> 是 signifie "être". Ici, le mot 在 ne signifie rien.  Tu peux l'avoir ou ne l'avoir pas. Il n'est pas plus important.



I do not want to contest if  在 is important but it is incorrect to say that the word signifies nothing. C'est pas exact.

 (近日) ....  这是(在)向学校教育发起挑战。

The words  近日 and 在work in tandem and complement each other. From these words, we are informed that the commotion started recently (近日) and it is an ongoing (在) process.

For direct translation:
 这是 = this is
在 = at (in the sense of time), e.g. at the moment
向 = direct towards


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## IDK

BODYholic said:


> I do not want to contest if 在 is important but it is incorrect to say that the word signifies nothing.


 
I understood that 在 gives a sense of "présent continu", but when I took out 在, that "continuous" sense didn't feel missing - that the change is very subtle and _near_ nothing.

I do see your point, though.


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## Interprete

Thank you guys! It is this kind of subtleties which even native speakers struggle to explain that makes Chinese so damn hard for foreigners!


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## xiaolijie

Interprete said:
			
		

> Who should I believe lol Who in here is not a native speaker?





			
				Interprete said:
			
		

> It is this kind of subtleties which even native speakers struggle to explain that makes Chinese so damn hard for foreigners!


I've got the answer you're looking for but I'm not a Chinese native speaker, Interprete. So, with regret I won't be able to help you, as I feel the right answer could easily go to waste in this case. 
(But if you show repentance, I may change my mind )


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## Interprete

xiaolijie said:


> I've got the answer you're looking for but I'm not a Chinese native speaker, Interprete. So, with regret I won't be able to help you, as I feel the right answer could easily go to waste in this case.
> (But if you show repentance, I may change my mind )


Who told you that I was not looking for non-native speakers?  If you read again, you might understand the opposite hehe. And to be honest, and no offence here, but native speakers are usually useless at explaining the grammar of their own languages.


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## 皮皮鲁

Regarding BODYholic's view over the relation between 近日 and 在，I'v got some doubt to air:suppose we scoop the phrase 近日 out of the sentence,the existence of the character 在 will still make good sense,actually this event in question could happen at whatever time without compromising the validity of the use of 在 here. Because, as being stated in my last post,the character 在 in this particular case is largely time-free as it functions more like a tone setter indicating the speaker's attitude toward the thing being discussed, in other words, by adding this structurally omitable character the writer of this sentence was trying to say:that was "really" or "definitely" an act of challenging the traditional pedagogical system instead of stating it in a blandly matter-of-fact way without any emotional involvement of the author.That is the nuance buried in this character embeded in this context.


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## Interprete

皮皮鲁 said:


> Regarding BODYholic's view over the relation between 近日 and 在，I'v got some doubt to air:suppose we scoop the phrase 近日 out of the sentence,the existence of the character 在 will still make good sense,actually this event in question could happen at whatever time without compromising the validity of the use of 在 here. Because, as being stated in my last post,the character 在 in this particular case is largely time-free as it functions more like a tone setter indicating the speaker's attitude toward the thing being discussed, in other words, by adding this structurally omitable character the writer of this sentence was trying to say:that was "really" or "definitely" an act of challenging the traditional pedagogical system instead of stating it in a blandly matter-of-fact way without any emotional involvement of the author.That is the nuance buried in this character embeded in this context.


Now that is a fully satisfactory explanation! Thank you so much!


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## xiaolijie

> Now that is a fully satisfactory explanation!


I don’t think so, because you haven’t yet seen mine 

Ok, let’s get serious: The 在 in 这是*在*向学校教育发起挑战 is neither the 在 that indicates a continous, ongoing action nor the 在 that indicates a point in time as some posters referred to above. It certainly relates to these two senses of 在, but with some characteristics that differentiate it from the other two:


1. For the 在 that indicates an ongoing action (我在吃饭), you can always replace it with 正 or 正在, but _with the __在__under discussion, you cannot always do that_, as shown in the following examples:

自从毕业，他一直在教中学。
深夜了，他还在看书。
他又在写家信了。
阅览室里安静极了，没有人不在专心学习。

2. The 在 in Chinese is commonly used to locate a point in time (在那时候) or a point in space （在那地方）, it can also be used *to locate an action or activity* (= the function under discussion), as you can see in the above examples. Here are some more, but this time do take care not to confuse it with the 在 that indicates an ongoing action:

胜利在向我们招手。
敌人在向我们挑战。
她一直在向窗外凝视

(For this use of 在, English speakers can relate it to the use of ‘_at_’ in English sentences such as _’While we’re at it,…’, ’He’s at it again’,_ etc.)


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## paddycarol

Interprete said:


> Now that is a fully satisfactory explanation! Thank you so much!


Yes,皮皮鲁's explanation is perfect.
“在”here is used to show the speaker's feeling or tone. (usually a feeling of surpirse or fury)
A tip for you to learn "zai" in this case
1. find some examples.
2. technically, you should put “是在”together. Actually, for the sake of a good language feel of Chinese, it is not advisible to seperate some "bound" characters. just like we are learning English collocations (esp. those indicating feelings)such as "may as well". 
3. linguistically，you should know where "是在”always appears in a sentence，what words always appear before or behind it.（This point is very important for you to learn a language more efficiently. ）

Some typical sentences for you:
1. 你(这)分明是在挑衅！remember 这（这can be omitted），分明，挑衅。它们的使用频率很高。
2. 你这分明是在向我挑衅！记住“向某人”，还要记住，说活人的语气是很愤怒的。
3. 他们两个人哪里是打架呀，分明是在调情啊。“哪里是”is often used in the first half sentence,but I guess it is even more difficult for you. "打架”“调情”are not typical words. they are not as often used as "挑战”or“挑衅”


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## BODYholic

皮皮鲁 said:


> Regarding BODYholic's view over the relation between 近日 and 在，I'v got some doubt to air:suppose we scoop the phrase 近日 out of the sentence,the existence of the character 在 will still make good sense,



1. I think we are not discussing if any statements made sense or not. In fact,

this made sense too.
上海的一家孟母堂以特殊的教育方式引起争论。这是向学校教育发起挑战

Even this made sense too.
孟母堂以特殊的教育向学校教育发起挑战.

You may not like it, this made logical sense too.
特殊教育向教育发起挑战

And so your point is invalid at all.


2. For every word that you omit from the sentence, a part of the information is lost even if it still made sense.


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## yc6489

xiaolijie said:


> I don’t think so, because you haven’t yet seen mine
> 
> Ok, let’s get serious: The 在 in 这是*在*向学校教育发起挑战 is neither the 在 that indicates a continous, ongoing action nor the 在 that indicates a point in time as some posters referred to above. It certainly relates to these two senses of 在, but with some characteristics that differentiate it from the other two:
> 
> 
> 1. For the 在 that indicates an ongoing action (我在吃饭), you can always replace it with 正 or 正在, but _with the __在__under discussion, you cannot always do that_, as shown in the following examples:
> 
> 自从毕业，他一直在教中学。
> 深夜了，他还在看书。
> 他又在写家信了。
> 阅览室里安静极了，没有人不在专心学习。
> 
> 2. The 在 in Chinese is commonly used to locate a point in time (在那时候) or a point in space （在那地方）, it can also be used *to locate an action or activity* (= the function under discussion), as you can see in the above examples. Here are some more, but this time do take care not to confuse it with the 在 that indicates an ongoing action:
> 
> 胜利在向我们招手。
> 敌人在向我们挑战。
> 她一直在向窗外凝视
> 
> (For this use of 在, English speakers can relate it to the use of ‘_at_’ in English sentences such as _’While we’re at it,…’, ’He’s at it again’,_ etc.)


 


这是在向学校教育发起挑战。

How is this particular  在 "locating an action in place or time?"

This sentence translates as:
"This is challenging school education."

That is to say, it is an action in progress, your definition 1.

I would welcome further clarification for my benefit, thank you.


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## xiaolijie

> This sentence translates as:
> "This is challenging school education."
> 
> That is to say, it is an action in progress, your definition 1.


You can understand it that way, but bear in mind that there're often more than one level of understanding in language, depending on how far you can go.



			
				yc6489 said:
			
		

> I would welcome further clarification for my benefit, thank you.


Please remember in the future to phrase your requests in a way that they sound less like a challenge, or you won't get proper responses, ok?


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## yc6489

xiaolijie said:


> You can understand it that way, but bear in mind that there're often more than one level of understanding in language, depending on how far you can go.
> 
> Please remember in the future to phrase your requests in a way that they sound less like a challenge, or you won't get proper responses, ok?


 

We are not talking about deep literary interpretation here. Either 在 in this sentence means 正在 or it doesn't. I would like to be sure of the correctness of my understanding; we are all here to learn after all.

What I don't appreciate is getting lectured on my etiquette by some guy who in this same exact thread was cocky enough to say the following to a poster who was just asking a question and demanding "repentance":



> I've got the answer you're looking for but I'm not a Chinese native speaker, Interprete. So, with regret I won't be able to help you, as I feel the right answer could easily go to waste in this case.


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## IDK

搞了這麼複雜啦！Whether you have 在 or not does severly change the meaning or feeling of the sentence. Would the sentence be less "present tense" without 在? Would the sentence be translated drastically differently if 在 wasn't there? Though these debates have good reasons behind them, for the sake of the thread-starter and other Chinese learners, let's keep things simpler.



Interprete said:


> Hello,
> 
> I don't understand the use of 在 in the following sentence:
> 近日，上海的一家孟母堂以特殊的教育方式引起争论。有人说，这是*在*向学校教育发起挑战。
> Is it there to insist on the fact that this is happening right now?
> 
> Thank you in advance.


 
Yes, possibly, but it could've been used because it came naturally.



			
				Interprete said:
			
		

> And in this case, what is the use of 是 in this sentence


 
It is the verb "to be" (être).


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## Interprete

Thank you all!

I know that "shi" is "to be". What I don't understand is that it is usually omitted in this kind of sentences, isn't it? Especially with "zai"...


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## xiaolijie

> It is the verb "to be" (être).


 是 in many circumstances, like here, is not the verb "to be" but is only a way of adding emphasis. A few of the posters above seem to have misidentified this as the role of 在, unfortunately.


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## BODYholic

Interprete said:


> Thank you all!
> 
> I know that "shi" is "to be". What I don't understand is that it is usually omitted in this kind of sentences, isn't it? Especially with "zai"...



Yes, 是 in this case means "to be". But what to you mean by "this kind of sentences"? What exactly is "this kind"?

Did you mean:
有人说，这 - *在*向学校教育发起挑战。(where 是 is omitted)
Err .. I believe this is grammatically incorrect.


You may, however, write or say ...
有人说，这是向学校教育发起挑战。


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## 皮皮鲁

Granted, the diction of my last post, the use of words like "making sense" and "validity" is imprecise,not specific enough,and not "tight" as pointed out by BODYholic,but I still decided to defend my opinion and to complement it with further elucidation:

To aid my analysis,I'll divide sentences into two categories on the basis of their functions.

The first type I term them factual sentences and their function as you can guess from their title is to state a fact. In these sentences,在 if used will serve the sole purpose of indicating the ongoingness of the action which is an indispensable part of the fact. Here goes an example:他们正在发帖子挑战皮皮鲁的观点。

The second type,I'll name them arbitrary sentences.As opposed to the sentences stating facts these sentences are intended to expose the speaker's opinions,views,judgements,guesses or interpretations and their contents are not necessarily in accordance with the objective world.And in these situations 在 is used to help make known and affirm the speaker's "sureness" over his/her allegations.Even though the ongoingness of the action may be included in these assertions it is not necessary and is by far not the main reason for the use of this character.The 在 whose connotation we'v gone all the lengths trying to pinpoint comes from a sentence that falls into this category.


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## BODYholic

皮皮鲁 said:


> And in these situations 在 is used to help make known and affirm the speaker's "sureness" over his/her allegations.



The speaker is unsure. 



> 近日，上海的一家孟母堂以特殊的教育方式引起争论。*有人说*，这是*在*向学校教育发起挑战。


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## 皮皮鲁

_*The speaker refers to 有人, the direct utterer of these*_ suppositions,not the reporter. Have a lovely day pal.


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