# She forced Mike to sign the document, but he didn't sign it.



## redsalt

She forced Mike to sign the document, but he didn't sign it.

Is this sentence correct?


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## Loob

No.


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## lonelyloner

She tried to force Mike to sign the document but he didn't do it


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## Hermione Golightly

#3 is better because it avoids the illogicality of #1 but it is still not a natural sentence. 'Trying' to force doesn't imply success.


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## SabbyKK

Hello Redsalt!

If you say she forced someone to do something, it means that person did it! So if she forced Mike to sign a document, it means he signed it! So saying he didn't sign it doesn't go with the first part. The sentence doesn't work.

Your next sentence is fine but it still sounds a little strange to me! I'm so sorry. Maybe you mean: She tried to make Mike sign the document but...? I don't know but tried to force sounds a little strange!

Oh I think I have said much the same thing as Hermione Golightly!


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## Tegs

redsalt said:


> Is this sentence correct?


It is grammatically correct, but it makes no sense. Forcing someone to do something results in them doing that thing. 



lonelyloner said:


> She tried to force Mike to sign the document but he didn't do it


Unlike the two previous posters, I don’t think there‘s anything odd about this one.


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## SabbyKK

Oh ok. I just mean that "tried to force" is a little strange don't you think? I mean you can force someone to do something or you can try to make someone do something but trying to force someone? Oh I don't know how to explain what I mean but I hope you get it!!?


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## lonelyloner

SabbyKK said:


> Maybe you mean: She tried to make Mike sign the document but


she tried to do it (force) but didn't succeed so he didn't sing the document
I don't see how it's different from what you suggested


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## SabbyKK

Oh no. Forcing someone to do something means you are trying to make them do something, so saying "tried to force" is overkill! You can say "tried to make Mike sign" but tried to force Mike to sign is just not right. At least it doesn't sound right. I'm so sorry but I can't explain why. Maybe it's because force implies trying? At least in that sentence it doesn't sound right. Maybe it could work in another sentence?


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## Hermione Golightly

We'd say 'she tried to make him sign using force, but she wasn't successful.'


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## lonelyloner

SabbyKK said:


> force implies trying


ok thanks now I see


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## Tegs

lonelyloner said:


> I don't see how it's different from what you suggested


I agree with LonelyLoner here. 



SabbyKK said:


> you can force someone to do something or you can try to make someone do something but trying to force someone?



“_Try_ to _make _someone do something” is the same as “_try_ to _force _someone to do something”. I think your argument in #7 is that “forcing“ either happens or it doesn’t, but it’s not something you can “try”. But if that were true, it would also apply to “making someone do something”, yet you used “try to make someone do something” without thinking it sounded odd.



Hermione Golightly said:


> We'd say 'she tried to make him sign using force, but she wasn't successful.'



I accept that you might say this, but I wouldn’t. I would say ”She tried to force Mike to sign it, but he didn’t”. (I accept that this could be slighly ambiguous in that it could also be interpreted as “She tried to force Mike to sign it but he [a third person called John] didn’t [try to force Mike to sign it].”)


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## SabbyKK

Oh! Well, maybe you're right but I don't know. Something about using try and force together doesn't seem right to me! But I admit I'm not the brightest spark around.  So maybe I'm thinking too much!

It just seems overkill, tried to force! But am happy to learn from all of you. I'm no language expert!


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## Tegs

Well, Hermione agrees with you, so it’s ok for us to agree to disagree on this  I’m sure your spark is just fine!


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## Hermione Golightly

Yes, I agree with Sabby but my 'tried to make him sign' was an effort to help the OP to understand.
I forgot to say that I do think 'tried to force' is odd. Couldn't she think of anyway to force him? He refused to be forced, not to sign.


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## Tegs

Hermione Golightly said:


> We'd say 'she tried to make him sign



But if this is how you would say it yourself, rather than just how you’re explaining it to the OP, how do you figure “_try to make someone_ do something” is more correct than “_try to force someone_ to do something”? To me, these mean exactly the same thing.


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## SabbyKK

Tegs, I think force means there's some element of trying! Force always requires effort!


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## lonelyloner




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## Hermione Golightly

Maybe my brain works differently, especially when it's my bedtime.
I'd say I tried to make him sign it, but nothing would persuade him, no form of bribe or inducement, and he knew my threat to poke out his eyes was ridiculous. So I failed.


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## redsalt

Hermione Golightly said:


> 'Trying' to force doesn't imply success.


Could you explain more?


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## Hermione Golightly

No, I can't. Sorry!


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## SabbyKK

Lonelyloner, in your first sentence (tried to force Preval's hand), that's a different meaning of force! And the others all use force in a different way from your original sentence. Sorry, I mean Redsalt's sentence. I'm so sorry but I think this is something that can't be explained. You need to get a feel for it. Do you know what I mean?


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## redsalt

She tried to force Mike (to sign the document), but he was not obeyed.

She tried to make [Mike sign the document], but she failed.


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## SabbyKK

Redsalt, the first sentence doesn't make sense to me. Who's "he". The second makes sense.


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## redsalt

SabbyKK said:


> Redsalt, the first sentence doesn't make sense to me. Who's "he". The second makes sense.


She tried to force Mike (to sign the document), but Mike was not obeyed.


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## SabbyKK

I don't understand. That sentence doesn't say Mike told anyone to do anything, so how does the question of obeying Mike arise? Do you mean Mike didn't obey her?


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## SabbyKK

Mike was not obeyed means that no one obeyed Mike.


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## redsalt

SabbyKK said:


> I don't understand. That sentence doesn't say Mike told anyone to do anything, so how does the question of obeying Mike arise? Do you mean Mike didn't obey her?


Sorry. Yes, I do.


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## SabbyKK

Ah ok. So what do you want to say then? I mean, where does the force come into it?


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## redsalt

She tried to force Mike (to sign the document), but he did not obey her. → he didn't sign it.

She tried to make [Mike sign the document], but she failed. → he didn't sign it.

'Tried to force' is OK.


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## SabbyKK

Well ok I understand the first sentence but it still doesn't sound like something someone would say.


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## kentix

I, too, think, if you examine it closely, "she tried to force him" to do something isn't very logical.

But this version below is not something you would likely ever hear someone say, even though it's logical and grammatical.

- She tried to make him sign using force, but she wasn't successful.

It's way too wordy and pedantic.

So I think we say the other, without thinking too much about the details.

Or you could say something completely different.

- Her attempt to force him to sign the document failed.


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## MattiasNYC

But isn't there a difference between for example "tried to persuade him to sign" and "tried to force him to sign"? The former to me doesn't seem to imply "force" but maybe just an appeal to emotion or logic etc, whereas the latter to me seems like it implies maybe a threat, or actual literal force.

I'm not saying "tried to _make_" isn't better, just that "tried to force" doesn't sound _that _odd to me.

Perhaps a different way (for me) to think about it is "tried to force the door open" implying physical force, and "tried to force him to sign" could be either physical or, uhm.. you know.. something else..

And there are plenty of "tried to force" as search results when I look.


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## Andygc

If she pulled out one of Mike's toenails, or, like Lysistrata (Lysistrata - Wikipedia), refused marital comforts, that might count as "tried to force".


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## elroy

Hermione Golightly said:


> it is still not a natural sentence. 'Trying' to force doesn't imply success.


Right, no success is implied.  I don’t see how that makes the sentence unnatural. 


kentix said:


> "she tried to force him" to do something isn't very logical.





kentix said:


> you could say something completely different.
> 
> - Her attempt to force him to sign the document failed.


I don’t see how “tried to force” is illogical but “her attempt to force” is logical.  They’re both saying the same thing in different ways.

“tried to force” makes perfect sense.

I tried to force him to do x. = I tried to get him to do x against his will.


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## kentix

You didn't try to force him, You actually applied force to him. That part did not fail. What was tried and failed was to be in possession of his legitimate signature. Despite the force you actually applied, you didn't get the result you wanted.

I tried to get his signature on the document.

I tried persuasion.

I tried threats.

I tried force.

All those methods failed and he did not sign the document.

I tried to get his signature, but I failed.


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## elroy

“force him” here does not mean “apply force to him.”  It means “make him.”

I forced him to go. = I made him go.
NOT I applied force to get him to go [but I may or may not have succeeded in making him go].

So

I tried to force him to go. = I tried to make him go.


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## kentix

elroy said:


> I don’t see how 1) “tried to force” is illogical but 2) “her attempt to force” is logical.


1) She tried to force him but was somehow too weak that day to apply the force she wanted to.

2) She did apply force, she made the attempt to get the signature by choosing to use force. But it didn't work.


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## elroy

In both cases, she applied force, but she didn’t get the outcome she wanted.  See my post above.

But however you interpret “force,” “tried to” vs. “her attempt to” doesn’t change the meaning.  You’re just using a verb in one case and a noun in another.

He tried to learn Chinese and failed.
His attempt to learn Chinese failed.
Same meaning.


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## redsalt

elroy said:


> “force him” here does not mean “apply force to him.”  It means “make him.”
> 
> I forced him to go. = I made him go.
> NOT I applied force to get him to go [but I may or may not have succeeded in making him go].
> 
> So
> 
> I tried to force him to go. = I tried to make him go.


I did not make 'him'. I made 'him go'.


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## elroy

My post is correctly worded.  "force him" = "make him" and "force him to go" = "made him go."

Also, it is possible to elide the infinitive when the meaning is understood from context:

- Why did he go?
- I made him.


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## Hermione Golightly

redsalt said:


> I did not make 'him'. I made 'him go'.


Please! We understand that. What is your point?
Forced him or made him, my point is that he did not in fact go. So she could not have forced him or made him do anything. She might think she had, but for some reason he did not. It's a contradiction.


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## elroy

Hermione Golightly said:


> It's a contradiction.


It's not, though, because it's "*tried* to force him."  "tried" is crucial.
As you say yourself, "*tried* to force him" does not imply success, so its not incompatible with him not going.


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## Tegs

elroy said:


> It's not, though, because it's "*tried* to force him." "tried" is crucial.


It depends what sentence you're referring to. The original post was indeed problematic as Hermione points out. This is the OP:


redsalt said:


> She forced Mike to sign the document, but he didn't sign it


The issue of _trying_ (which has been discussed a lot but wasn't in the original poster's suggestion) was brought in in post #3. I agree that the very first post is illogical.


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## elroy

Indeed, I was referring to the claim that “tried to force” is problematic, which has been a bone of contention in this thread.  I think everyone is in full agreement about the sentence in the OP.


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