# Urdu-Hindi: le kar/le ke



## Alfaaz

*Background:
*This trend seems to have started in Hindi media (television soaps) and now can be heard even in Urdu media (dramas, etc.):
تم کس بات کو لے کر اتنے خفا ہو؟
_"Tum kis baat ko le kar itne khafa ho?" _
ابّا ________ کو لے کر بہت پریشان رہتے ہیں
_"Abba (son/daughter's name) ko le ke bht parishaan rehte hain"_

This (annoying) usage seems to be rampant among the younger generation, but it looks like some from the older generation has started to use it as well. A decade or two ago, this was frowned upon by elders and corrected by suggesting the use of _wajh_ وجہ:
_"Abba _______ ki wajh se bht pareshaan rehte hain"_ 

Even in Hindi (just guessing, not sure if this is correct), this seems wrong and a more appropriate way to phrase the thought could be something like:
"Pitaaji ________ ke karan bht chintik rehte hain.." ?

*Question:* Is such usage of "le ke/le kar" correct?


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## Illuminatus

I am surprised you find this usage annoying. It sounds very natural to me. Perhaps we are looking at another Hindi/Urdu distinction in the level of idiomatic-ness.

को ले कर/کو لے کر is very common in Hindi, at least. And not just in colloquial talk, but also in newspapers. Here are a few examples of it being used in newspapers.

मुंबई मनपा _को लेकर_ सत्ता का सर्कस शुरू

टेस्ट में धोनी की कप्तानी _को लेकर_ *...*
टेस्ट में धोनी की कप्तानी _को लेकर_ *...*
कश्मीर में बिजली _को लेकर_ बवाल, फायरिंग  पहले बच्चे _को लेकर_ शिल्पा और राज एक्साइटेड *...* 
I think this abundance of use does give reasonable evidence that it is grammatical. As for whether it's annoying, that varies from ear to ear.


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## Alfaaz

Thanks for replying! Didn't mean to sound rude...shouldn't have used "annoying", but it makes one wonder if/ke aulaad ko goud mein "le ker" pareshaan ho rahe hain...! Maybe it's sounding weird due to a lack of exposure to such usage, as you suggest (accustomed to using/hearing wajh or karan)!


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## Illuminatus

Rather, aulaad ke topic ko dimaagh mein le kar pareshaan ho rahe hain


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## Qureshpor

Alfaaz said:


> *Background:
> *This trend seems to have started in Hindi media (television soaps) and now can be heard even in Urdu media (dramas, etc.):
> تم کس بات کو لے کر اتنے خفا ہو؟
> _"Tum kis baat ko le kar itne khafa ho?" _
> ابّا ________ کو لے کر بہت پریشان رہتے ہیں
> _"Abba (son/daughter's name) ko le ke bht parishaan rehte hain"_
> 
> This (annoying) usage seems to be rampant among the younger generation, but it looks like some from the older generation has started to use it as well. A decade or two ago, this was frowned upon by elders and corrected by suggesting the use of _wajh_ وجہ:
> _"Abba _______ ki wajh se bht pareshaan rehte hain"_
> 
> Even in Hindi (just guessing, not sure if this is correct), this seems wrong and a more appropriate way to phrase the thought could be something like:
> "Pitaaji ________ ke karan bht chintik rehte hain.." ?
> 
> *Question:* Is such usage of "le ke/le kar" correct?




Alfaaz you have every right to be annoyed, if that is how you feel about a certain usage. It does not matter if anyone else feels this to be grammatically correct or pristine. After all, you are merely expressing a personal opinion just as in another's view some word might not sound "elegant".

IMHO,for both the examples that you have provided, most Urdu speakers who care about their language would render them somewhat differently.

_"Tum kis baat ko le kar itne khafa ho?" _

tum kis baat se itne xafaa ho?
tum kis binaa par itne xafaa ho?
tum kis vajh se itne xafaa ho?

Having said all this, this particular example is not so bad. "tum kis baat ko le kar xafaa ho?" can be translated as "On what account are you angry?"

_"Abba (son/daughter's name) ko le ke bahut parishaan rehte hain"_

abbaa x se bahut pareshaan rahte haiN.
abbaa x ke baa3is bahut preshaan rahte haiN.

The use of "le kar" for "vajh" is not something that I have come across in Urdu speech or writing. I could be wrong.


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## Qureshpor

Illuminatus said:


> I think this abundance of use does give reasonable evidence that it is grammatical. As for whether it's annoying, that varies from ear to ear.




On the net, on radio and TV and in real life, you will come across people saying, "aap merii baat suno" and "yih to maiN ne karnaa hii karnaa hai". Based on the frequency of usage, one can not deduce that all this is grammatically correct.


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## Illuminatus

What do you suggest we take as evidence of grammaticality, QURESHPOR? Platt's grammar? And do you think Platt dreamt the grammar up and wrote it down?

I understand that one can't rely blindly on internet to check for grammaticality, but ignoring actual language usage by a large demographic of that language's speakers and calling it wrong is not only incorrect, its delusional.

I am willing to take your word that this usage is considered ungrammatical in Urdu, but please do not assert that this usage, which is well-attested in both spoken and written communication, is incorrect Hindi. In another thread, you asserted that statements such as _kitaab khareedna padegii_ are grammatical in Urdu. As I do not have a lot of that exposure to that language, I was prepared to take your word for that too. I didn't call it incorrect just because it is starkly ungrammatical in Hindi.

On the net, on radio, and on TV and in real life, we do hear "aap meri baat suno", and that sentence is perfectly grammatical as far as spoken Hindi goes. You defended Alfaaz' _Right to be Annoyed_ in this thread, so let me put it on record here—I am annoyed when people refuse to accept what is usage evidence so glaring that it's dancing naked in front of their face.

I have written on the topic of what makes something grammatical. If you are interested, you may read it here.


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## Qureshpor

Illuminatus, let us please have a gentlemanly discussion.



Illuminatus said:


> What do you suggest we take as evidence of grammaticality, QURESHPOR? Platt's grammar? And do you think Platt dreamt the grammar up and wrote it down?
> 
> Platts grammar is a starting point. Language has moved on and more recent grammars are available by scholars of note.
> 
> I understand that one can't rely blindly on internet to check for grammaticality, but ignoring actual language usage by a large demographic of that language's speakers and calling it wrong is not only incorrect, its delusional.
> 
> I have no problem with your argument. Grammar writers base their works on the examples of the best writers of that language. When, for example, the literati begin to write in their prose and poety "aap merii baat suno" and this becomes acceptable by the general public, then it is time to accept that this is the new reality.
> 
> I am willing to take your word that this usage is considered ungrammatical in Urdu, but please do not assert that this usage, which is well-attested in both spoken and written communication, is incorrect Hindi.
> 
> Pray do tell me when I said "ko le ke" construction is incorrect Hindi. If you care to read my reply again, you will see that my stand point is from the Urdu perspective. The thread title is for both languages. My word is not the last word. Some Urdu speaker/s may come and quote instances of its usage in Urdu literature. This is what I have said in my earlier post, "The use of "le kar" for "vajh" is not something that I have come across in Urdu speech or writing. I could be wrong."
> 
> In another thread, you asserted that statements such as _kitaab khareedna padegii_ are grammatical in Urdu. As I do not have a lot of that exposure to that language, I was prepared to take your word for that too. I didn't call it incorrect just because it is starkly ungrammatical in Hindi.
> 
> Please see my reply in the thread, "Urdu-Hindi:lena, karna, etc.masculine forms". I would suggest that you may find examples in Hindi literature of "kitaab xariidnaa paRe gii" and this form is not "starkly ungrammatical in Hindi". Perhaps one of the members could check this in McGregor's Hindi Grammar. My copy is not easily accessible at this moment.
> 
> We must not lose sight of one thing. Urdu and Hindi are spoken in very large areas and by many different ethnicties. There is bound to be a diversity in various usages.
> 
> On the net, on radio, and on TV and in real life, we do hear "aap meri baat suno", and that sentence is perfectly grammatical as far as spoken Hindi goes. You defended Alfaaz' _Right to be Annoyed_ in this thread, so let me put it on record here—I am annoyed when people refuse to accept what is usage evidence so glaring that it's dancing naked in front of their face.
> 
> I have already attended to this point above.
> 
> I have written on the topic of what makes something grammatical. If you are interested, you may read it here.
> 
> Thank you.


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## nineth

I don't see anything incorrect with such usage in spoken/informal Hindi.


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## lcfatima

Alfaaz are you saying that this is a new usage? It sounds normal to me, and I just tested it out on a few native Urdu speakers and none of them found it abnormal, nor associated the usage as being marked as Hindi-sounding. 

Does this usage of le kar fall in the same category as aap+ho constructions? As in it is prescriptively incorrect but widely used colloquially?


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## BP.

I first heard this expression last year, and had a hard time getting round its different usages. And I do not think it is widely (ref. post 10) used.

I've come to understand it means _kii baabat_ or _kee baaree mee.n_. However you might have to subject me to some degree of torture to have me use it!


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## greatbear

It's a very widely used construction in Hindi, and as a Hindi speaker I don't find anything even remotely off with it - all your examples instantly convey their right (intended) meaning to me. However, I have no idea if that is common in Urdu or not.


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## greatbear

Illuminatus said:


> What do you suggest we take as evidence of grammaticality, QURESHPOR? Platt's grammar? And do you think Platt dreamt the grammar up and wrote it down?



Brilliantly put! A point that I've tried to argue without much success in the past here.



			
				QURESHPOR said:
			
		

> Platts grammar is a starting point. Language has moved on and more recent grammars are available by scholars of note.



The simple point here, QP, is that usage defines grammars, not the other way round. I don't think you again got the point.


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## Alfaaz

Certainly didn't mean to start a debate or offend anyone; Thanks to everyone for replying!

I guess it is subjective and depends on a variety of factors (location, environment, dialects, etc.) As far as Urdu media is concerned, this seems to be relatively new usage. You would seldom find such constructions used in television or even movies of the so called "golden" period of PTV and films (Tanhaiyaan, Dhoop Kinare, Unkahi, Parchaiyaan, etc.). On the other hand, today this usage seems to be gradually spreading/picking up and heard in many TV series/dramas and even political talk shows (in addition to some other flaws). One factor could be the influence of English or just lack of education...
As many members have pointed out, it is widely used in Hindi media now, but (not sure) it probably wasn't so a couple of decades ago (B&W era to 1990's--even early 2000's of Bollywood). In the movie Main aur Ms. Khanna, for example, Kareena K. character says something like: "Is ka matlab hai ke tum mere jazbaaton se khelte aaye ho?" Guessing that it should either have been jazbaat or jazbon, and such mistakes were rare in the past.

This and the aap+ho constructions probably fall in the same category; Again it depends on lots of things (location, education level, dialects, exposure to media and literature...); A younger show host was once corrected by a senior artist on the use of ho with aap...

Those who grow up listening to such constructions will probably start using them and consider them gramatically correct/normal (as has been discussed in many threads: _karni_, aaj _mein ne _jana hai); Still, there are many in the somewhat younger crowd (including me), who try to stick to traditions/grammar (most of the time!);  Some might be disturbed by such usages, while others would not be bothered, considering it evolution of language...


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## greatbear

Alfaaz said:


> As many members have pointed out, it is widely used in Hindi media now, but (not sure) it probably wasn't so a couple of decades ago (B&W era to 1990's--even early 2000's of Bollywood).
> 
> Those who grow up listening to such constructions will probably start using them and consider them gramatically correct/normal (as has been discussed in many threads: _karni_, aaj _mein ne _jana hai); Still, there are many in the somewhat younger crowd (including me), who try to stick to traditions/grammar (most of the time!);  Some might be disturbed by such usages, while others would not be bothered, considering it evolution of language...



I don't really get that how are you able to put this kind of a grammatic/ungrammatic blanket rule over Hindi as well. The construction has always been fine and grammatical in Hindi, and it's much more older than "a couple of decades"! It is not just widely used in Hindi media _now_, but it has always been a part of Hindi, with nothing inelegant about it.


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## Faylasoof

Alfaaz said:


> *Background:
> *This trend seems to have started in Hindi media (television soaps) and now can be heard even in Urdu media (dramas, etc.):
> تم کس بات کو لے کر اتنے خفا ہو؟
> _"Tum kis baat ko le kar itne khafa ho?" _
> ابّا ________ کو لے کر بہت پریشان رہتے ہیں
> _"Abba (son/daughter's name) ko le ke bht parishaan rehte hain"_
> 
> This (annoying) usage seems to be rampant among the younger generation, but it looks like some from the older generation has started to use it as well. A decade or two ago, this was frowned upon by elders and corrected by suggesting the use of _wajh_ وجہ:
> _"Abba _______ ki wajh se bht pareshaan rehte hain"_
> 
> Even in Hindi (just guessing, not sure if this is correct), this seems wrong and a more appropriate way to phrase the thought could be something like:
> "Pitaaji ________ ke karan bht chintik rehte hain.." ?
> 
> *Question:* Is such usage of "le ke/le kar" correct?


 Alfaaz, I have to contradict you! This usage of _le kar_ / _le ke_ is very much part of standard Urdu and has been for long! We use it and all my elders as well, including my late grandparents and their ancestors too and so on, I'm sure. .... and please remember we are native _lakhnavi urdu goyaan_!


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## Alfaaz

Thanks for everyone's replies!

greatbear and faylasoof: Thanks for your answers! Didn't mean to put a blanket rule over either Hindi or Urdu; was just expressing what I saw as an outsider (with TV being one of the most prominent links to Southeast Asian Culture). I guess its not the best way to judge languages and cultures; Also, surroundings have effects on people's perceptions, notions, and preferences (what might sound elegant to one person, might not be to the other, vice versa).


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## marrish

I've come across the usage le *kar ke*, bataa *kar ke*, has anybody heard it?


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## Alfaaz

Yes! regularly in Hindi media and even Urdu media (Umer Shareef "Ham is 'azm ko le kar ke" and some other actors/singers/personalities who are "urdu speaking"); This certainly does not mean that all "Urdu speaking" or people of other language backgrounds use this or consider it "proper", vice versa; many consider it incorrect and somewhat (don't mean to be rude) _"paindu"_ and perhaps even a Hindi or Punjabi influence. Of course, there are also those who would consider it completely correct (whether "urdu speaking" or of any other language)! It is sometimes associated with being less educated/tapori style of speaking....in addition to "maine woh kara/kari tha" instead of kiya (as was discussed in another thread).

However, after having said all the above, it is important to note that all these ideas and opinions are subjective. What may be wrong for one person, might be right for the other. Faylasoof said "le ke/kar" is part of standard Urdu and even the lakhnaviis have been using it. On the other hand, there may be lakhnaviis or in general Urdu speakers who find its usage awkward/odd...


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## marrish

Alfaaz said:


> Yes! regularly in Hindi media and even Urdu media (Umer Shareef "Ham is 'azm ko le kar ke" and some other actors/singers/personalities who are "urdu speaking"); This certainly does not mean that all "Urdu speaking" or people of other language backgrounds use this or consider it "proper", vice versa; many consider it incorrect and somewhat (don't mean to be rude) _"paindu"_ and perhaps even a Hindi or Punjabi influence. It is sometimes associated with being less educated/tapori style of speaking....in addition to "maine woh kara/kari tha" instead of kiya (as was discussed in another thread).
> 
> However, after having said all the above, it is important to note that all these ideas and opinions are subjective. What may be wrong for one person, might be right for the other. Faylasoof said "le ke/kar" is part of standard Urdu and even the lakhnaviis have been using it; on the other hand there may be lakhnaviis or in general Urdu speakers who find its usage awkward/odd...


 Thank you for so informative, and, last but not least, balanced and fine response.


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## Alfaaz

You're welcome! Just edited it to add a few more sentences to make it more "balanced."


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## BP.

marrish said:


> I've come across the usage le *kar ke*, bataa *kar ke*, has anybody heard it?


Yes, regularly, from a family member from two generations earlier.


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## marrish

BelligerentPacifist said:


> Yes, regularly, from a family member from two generations earlier.


Exactly what I was bearing in mind!

Edit: I find it cool, it gives you more time to think about different ideas while speaking.


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## tonyspeed

Just a request for clarification: In my mind I always thought "_ko le kar_" was closer to "in relation to" rather than "because of". Sure, maybe I am splitting hairs with semantics here, but I would translate (If I were trying to be as close to the original wording as possible) "_Tum kis baat ko le kar itne khafa ho"_ as "In respect to which matter are you _khafa_?" rather than "for what reason are you _khafa_?" as "_ki wajh se" _and_ "ke kaaran"_ imply.

Any comments?


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## greatbear

tonyspeed said:


> Just a request for clarification: In my mind I always thought "_ko le kar_" was closer to "in relation to" rather than "because of". Sure, maybe I am splitting hairs with semantics here, but I would translate (If I were trying to be as close to the original wording as possible) "_Tum kis baat ko le kar itne khafa ho"_ as "In respect to which matter are you _khafa_?" rather than "for what reason are you _khafa_?" as "_ki wajh se" _and_ "ke kaaran"_ imply.
> 
> Any comments?



It wouldn't be a very good translation, I'm afraid. "Tum kis baat ko le kar pareshaan ho" is colloquial, and the corresponding equivalent in English would be "What's the matter? What's bothering you?"
(To note that I've changed the original example's "khafa", which means being in bad humour, to "pareshaan", which means bothered.)


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## tonyspeed

greatbear said:


> It wouldn't be a very good translation, I'm afraid. "Tum kis baat ko le kar pareshaan ho" is colloquial, and the corresponding equivalent in English would be "What's the matter? What's bothering you?"
> (To note that I've changed the original example's "khafa", which means being in bad humour, to "pareshaan", which means bothered.)



While it might be alright for the layman, I don't believe translating things colloquially helps learners understand the structure of Hindi very much. It's for this reason subtitles irk learners. Notice: (*If I were trying to be as close to the original wording as possible)*


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## nineth

tonyspeed said:


> While it might be alright for the layman, I don't believe translating things colloquially helps learners understand the structure of Hindi very much. It's for this reason subtitles irk learners. Notice: (*If I were trying to be as close to the original wording as possible)*



I fully disagree; I'm afraid that's your view. _greatbear_'s comment is indeed valuable and appropriate - in learning idiomatic usage, i.e., what native speakers actually use / mean.


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## tonyspeed

nineth said:


> _greatbear_'s comment is indeed valuable and appropriate



I'm afraid however it did not address my question. My question was is "ko le kar" closer to "in relation to/in regards to/in respects to" or "because of"? I did not ask for a colloquial English version.


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## nineth

Well, the question is not really meaningful since my answer would be "It depends". "in relation to / in regards to" is definitely an incorrect translation in this context; "because of", "due to" are closer, but all of them could be equally far. For this sentence, you would get "you are troubled due to/because of what?" Is this elegant? No. "you are troubled in relation to what?" is even worse.


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## Faylasoof

tonyspeed said:


> Just a request for clarification: *In my mind I always thought "ko le kar" was closer to "in relation to" rather than "because of". *Sure, maybe I am splitting hairs with semantics here, but I would translate (If I were trying to be as close to the original wording as possible) "_Tum kis baat ko le kar itne khafa ho"_ as "In respect to which matter are you _khafa_?" rather than "for what reason are you _khafa_?" as "_ki wajh se" _and_ "ke kaaran"_ imply.
> 
> Any comments?


 _Is "*ko le kar*"closer to “*in relation to*” rather than "*because*"? I don’t think so! 

_In Urdu, “in relation to” would be: _ke nisbatan_ / _kii nisbat se_ ; _se muata3alliq / ta3alluq se _etc. 

I agree that _ko le kar_ can be translated in more than one way, depending on the context! 

_tum_ _is_ _ko le kar jaa rahe ho_
_You are taking him /her / it (along).
_
_tum_ _is_ _ko saathh le kar jaa rahe ho_
_You are taking him /her / it along.
_
_tum_ _is_ _ko apne saathh le kar jaa rahe ho_
_You are taking him /her / it along you..
_
_agar ham is baat ko le kar dekheN_ _to_…
_If we take this point / issue then …_
_If we consider this point / issue then …
_
But also impersonally, 

_If one were to consider / take this point / issue then …_
etc.

Also, we need to keep in mind whether we are discussing source language specific translation or target language specific translation? If the latter, then one should do a translation that is idiomatic in the target language. As we all know, a literal translation can sound really off! 

… and finally, for this:

_tum_ _is_ _ko le kar itnaa naaraaDh / xafaa ho rahe ho
_
Literally:
_You are taking this (and) getting so annoyed.
_
Idiomatically:
_You are getting so annoyed because of / due to this._


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## tonyspeed

Faylasoof said:


> _tum_ _is_ _ko le kar itnaa naaraaDh / xafaa ho rahe ho
> _
> Literally:
> _You are taking this (and) getting so annoyed.
> _
> Idiomatically:
> _You are getting so annoyed because of / due to this._



Thank you. I did not understand the jump between literal (taking) and idiomatic (due to).


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## Faylasoof

tonyspeed said:


> Thank you. I did not understand the jump between literal (taking) and idiomatic (due to).


 Usage may not be logical and here I can well see your point! However, one could try see it this way:

_tum_ _is_ _ko le kar itnaa naaraaDh / xafaa ho rahe ho 
__1)You are getting so annoyed because of / due to this.__
2)you have taken this (to heart and) are getting so annoyed 
__3)you have taken this (to heart and due to / because of this you) are getting so annoyed _

I'm not sure if this convinces you but the point I'm driving at is that no. (1) is idomatic though it may seem odd to non-natives and follows a kind of logic when you start from no.(3).  We've ended up dropping _'taken_' and truncated the sentence!


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## Faylasoof

BelligerentPacifist said:


> Originally Posted by *marrish*
> 
> I've come across the usage le *kar ke*, bataa *kar ke*, has anybody heard it?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, regularly, from a family member from two generations earlier.
Click to expand...

 Bhaa'ii SaaHib, do you also use this? I ask because we still do and I'm two generations down from your elders!


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## marrish

In this and the following post (due to the character limit per post) I am presenting the result of a search on the internet for the phrase "ko le kar" in Urdu ("کو لے کر"). There are approximately 153 results available, the rest being repetitive, but due to the nature of the hits (links + sentences) I decided to delete the rest and bring only the initial results to your attention.  I have read all the sentences from these hits trying to ascertain the usage of this phrase in Urdu. Where I felt that it maps the usage as discussed in this thread, I added '*yes*', when I was certain that it is not in this sense that the phrase was used I added '*no*'. 

There are still cases which I am not certain about and indicated it with yes/no or no/yes. We can discuss these instances.

This search is quantitative and qualitative in my opinion even if due to the great number of hits I am unable to present all of them, on basis of which some important conclusions can be made.

کراچی :پہلی اسپیشل عید ٹرین 800 مسافروں کو لے کر ...
 no
 کراچی....... پہلی اسپیشل عید ٹرین 8 سو سے زائد مسافروں کے لے کر کراچی سے پشاور روانہ ہوگئی ہے۔ بھاگتے دوڑتے یہ مسافر اپنی اپنی ...
no 
خصوصی پرواز لیبیا سے 261 پاکستانیوں کو لے کر وطن 
 no
 چارٹر پرواز لیبیا سے 261 پاکستانیوں کو لے کر وطن واپس پہنچ گئی ۔ پاکستانی شہریوں کو لے کر وطن آنے والی یہ چوتھی پرواز ہے ۔ دفتر.
ﺍﯾﮏ ﻧﯿﮏ ﺁﺩﻣﯽ ﺷﺎﺩﯼ ﮐﮯ ﺑﻌﺪ ﺑﯿﻮﯼ ﮐﻮ ﻟﮯ کر... - 
 no
ﺍﯾﮏ ﻧﯿﮏ ﺁﺩﻣﯽ ﺷﺎﺩﯼ ﮐﮯ ﺑﻌﺪ ﺑﯿﻮﯼ ﮐﻮ ﻟﮯ ﮐﺮ ﺍﭘﻨﮯ ﮔﮭﺮ ﻟﻮﭦ ﺭﮬﺎ ﺗﮭﺎ۔ ﺭﺍﺳﺘﮯ ﻣﯿﮟ ﺩﺭﯾﺎﻋﺒﻮﺭ ﮐﺮﻧﺎ ﭘﮍﺗﺎ ﺗﮭﺎ۔ ﺁﺩﻣﯽ ﻧﮯ ﺍﯾﮏ ﮐﺸﺘﯽ ﮐﺎ ﺍﻧﺘﻈﺎﻡ ﮐﯿﺎ ﺍﻭﺭ ﻭﮦ ﺩﻭﻧﻮﮞ ﺩﺭﯾﺎ ﻋﺒﻮﺭ ﮐﺮﻧﮯ...
انسان اگر صحیح معنوں میں حق کو لے کر اُٹھے | اردو مجلس فورم
no
پاکستانی دوستی بس تین پاکستانی مسافروں کو لے کر 
ننکانہ صاحب (اُردو پوائنٹ تازہ ترین اخبار۔26 اگست 2014ء )پاکستانی ننکانہ صاحب تا امرتسر دوستی بس تین مسلم مسافروں کو لے کر انتہائی ...
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yes
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Sep 3, 2014 - آندھراپردیش اسمبلی میں دارالحکومت کے مسئلہ پر مباحث کو لے کر اپوزیشن کا احتجاج ۔ کاروائی ملتوی.
'لو جہاد\' کو لے کر ماحول گرم 
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شکست خوردہ کانگریس قیادت تبدیلی دے رہی ہے زور نئی دہلی۔22جون (فکروخبر/ ذرائع )مہاراشٹر میں وزیر اعلی تبدیل کرنے کو لے کر سیاسی عمل تیز ہو گئی ہے… .
yes!!!!
کوئٹہ سے عید اسپیشل ٹرین مسافروں کو ل کر پشاور روانہ 
کوئٹہ (جیوڈیسک) کوئٹہ سے عید اسپیشل ٹرین مسافروں کو لے کر پشاور روانہ ہو گئی ہے۔ کوئٹہ سے عید اسپیشل ٹرین مقررہ ...
no
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no
لاؤڈ اسپیکرز کو لے کر ہوئے تنازعہ کے بعد رام پور میں جدوجہد
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ایک مندر سے لاؤڈ اسپیکرز ہٹانے کو لے کر بی جے پی کی طرف سے مراد آباد میں بلائی گئی مہا پنچایت کو لے کر پارٹی کارکنوں اور پولیس ...
وشنو اوتار کو لے کر بحرا ن ميں پھنسے دھونى:گرفتاری 
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وشنو اوتار کو لے کر بحرا ن ميں پھنسے دھونى:گرفتاری وارنٹ جاری. Tue 24 Jun, 2014. حیدرآباد،24جون(ایجنسی)آندھرا پردیش کی عدالت نے بھارتی کرکٹ ٹیم کے ...
کراچی : پہلی عید اسپیشل ٹرین مسافروں کو لے کر پشاورروانہ
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راشن کارڈ کرنے کی نئی پالیسی کو لے کر عوام میں افراتفری
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yes
شکوہ - ویکیپیڈیا
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no
ریپ کو لے کر جیٹلی کے بیان پر تنازعہ، دی صفائی 
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yes
خلائی جہاز "سویوز" نئے عملے کو لے کر بین الاقوامی خلائی 
بیکانور کے خلائی اڈّے سے آج ماسکو کے مقامی وقت کے مطابق چھ بج کر چالیس منٹ پر روس کا پائلٹ والا خلائی جہاز "سویوز" نئے عملے کو لے کر ...
no
حضرت ہارون کے واقعات 
حضرت موسیٰ ان تختیوں کو لے کر نیچے اترے اور قوم کو بچھڑے کے فتنہ میں مبتلا دیکھا تو ا نہوں نے اللہ تعالیٰ کے ہاتھ کی لکھی ہوئی دونوں تختیاں توڑ ڈالیں ۔
no
مے توحيد کو لے کر صفت جام پھرے کوہ ميں ، دشت ميں لے کر ترا پيغام پھرے اور معلوم ہے تجھ کو ، کبھي ناکام پھرے! دشت تو دشت ہيں ، دريا بھي نہ چھوڑے ہم نے
no


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## Alfaaz

This is one of the threads that I had made when I was relatively new to the forum and obviously had not developed my current style of creating threads/posting/writing. I would definitely express views differently if I could rewrite everything! In relation to this thought, I would just like to mention a few things here: 

As previously stated, I probably shouldn't have used a few words (including _annoying_) or implied that changes were _creeping in from one medium to another_.
However, I had read such views from senior forum members (both Hindi and Urdu speaking) prior to joining the forum and thought this might be another one of those examples.
An example of another phrase used in electronic media that I made a thread about (in the same month as this one) is: Urdu/Hindi: mujhe/mein mere
Another example of a phrase often used in electronic media that I made a thread about (in the same month as this one) is: Hindi & Urdu: bane rahiye


The reason for providing the examples above is just to illustrate that I was inquiring about phrases that I might not have understood properly. 
As stated previously in this thread, there was absolutely no intention of being rude or offending anyone! All of these questions were asked out of genuine interest in the languages.

The following explanation by Faylasoof SaaHib might illustrate why I (from an English speaker's perspective) had thought that _ko le kar _is a bit odd and should be replaced by _kii wajh se/ke kaaran_: 





			
				Faylasoof said:
			
		

> Literally:
> _You are taking this (and) getting so annoyed.
> _
> Idiomatically:
> _You are getting so annoyed because of / due to this._


In this case, it turned out that I had a misconception about the usage and grammatical correctness of the phrase, which was cleared due to all of the enlightening responses in this thread! Again, I hope that this and other threads like this one will not be viewed in a negative light and thanks to everyone for their valuable contributions!


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## eskandar

It seems that Alfaaz SaaHib may have changed his view on the use of _ko le kar_ but some of the forum's other Urduphones still find this construction displeasing. Could those who dislike it (for any reason) kindly explain why they dislike it or view it as inappropriate for Urdu? Some matters of taste (like this one) remain opaque to me as a learner and I'd just like to understand better why people seem to have strong opinions about this particular construction.


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## Qureshpor

# post 7. marrish SaaHib, thank you for your (no doubt) time consuming search for the usage of "le kar". One set, the "no" set clearly point to the usual meaning of the conjunctive participle "having taken/taking". The other set with "yes" marker is the one that is the subject of this thread. It seems to me that the information in these sentences is mainly if not exclusively concerned with Indian affairs, making me think that the newspaper/journal is Indian. It might be beneficial just to take two or three sentences of this type and analyse them, as you have suggested.


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## Qureshpor

eskandar said:


> It seems that Alfaaz SaaHib may have changed his view on the use of _ko le kar_ but some of the forum's other Urduphones still find this construction displeasing. Could those who dislike it (for any reason) kindly explain why they dislike it or view it as inappropriate for Urdu? Some matters of taste (like this one) remain opaque to me as a learner and I'd just like to understand better why people seem to have strong opinions about this particular construction.


eskandar SaaHib, I have expressed my views on this construction in # post 5, on the same day Alfaaz SaaHib started this thread. In conclusion, this is what I said in that post. (6th January 2012)

"The use of "le kar" for "vajh" is not something that I have come across in Urdu speech or writing. I could be wrong."

 To date, I have not heard an Urdu speaker use it in this way. Neither have I come across it in writing. I can't see myself using this construction. I can't really dissect my thought pattern beyond this.


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## marrish

eskandar SaaHib, I will return to this matter in the coming days but the main reason of my view that it doesn't sound well is the usage. It is not used in this sense in ~90% of cases.

Take this phrase as an example: مہاراشٹر میں وزیر اعلی تبدیل کرنے کو لے کر سیاسی عمل تیز ہو گئی ہے
_mahaaraashTar meN waziir-e-a3aalaa *tabdiil karne ko le kar* siyaasii 3amal tez ho ga'ii hae
_
It sounds clumsy to my ears, especially with the verb (!). _siyaasii 3amal ne waziir-e-a3aalaa tabdiil karne ko le liyaa aur tez ho ga'ii_. Neither fish nor fowl. 

Now, considering Faylasoof SaaHib's explanation for the other phrase "_because of / due to this", _what does the sentence really mean?"Because of/due to changing the chief minister, the political process has gained speed"?

or

"The political process has gained speed with regard to changing the CM"?

There are clearer ways to say either in Urdu.

Edit: the sentence is from 22 June while the CM resigned on 26 September.


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## marrish

Qureshpor said:


> # post 7. marrish SaaHib, thank you for your (no doubt) time consuming search for the usage of "le kar". One set, the "no" set clearly point to the usual meaning of the conjunctive participle "having taken/taking". The other set with "yes" marker is the one that is the subject of this thread. It seems to me that the information in these sentences is mainly if not exclusively concerned with Indian affairs, making me think that the newspaper/journal is Indian. It might be beneficial just to take two or three sentences of this type and analyse them, as you have suggested.


Welcome. It is the impression I got analysing all the results. I will check them up and post a rejoinder but for now I want to share an experiment:

I read this sentence from post No. 39 to a friend of mine who is a native Urdu speaker (no linguistic approach). He said he couldn't understand it at all and also said the gender of _3amal_ has been changed. He was thinking that it was perhaps due to Indian regional languages making an influence on Indian Urdu.

He also said that "_tum is baat ko le kar xafaa kyoN ho_" was not good. He said "_tum is baat ko le kar kyoN baiTh gaye ho_" was right. 

I'm in agreement with his opinion.


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> eskandar SaaHib, I will return to this matter in the coming days but the main reason of my view that it doesn't sound well is the usage. It is not used in this sense in ~90% of cases.
> 
> Take this phrase as an example: مہاراشٹر میں وزیر اعلی تبدیل کرنے کو لے کر سیاسی عمل تیز ہو گئی ہے
> _mahaaraashTar meN waziir-e-a3aalaa *tabdiil karne ko le kar* siyaasii 3amal tez ho ga'ii hae
> _
> It sounds clumsy to my ears, especially with the verb (!). _siyaasii 3amal ne waziir-e-a3aalaa tabdiil karne ko le liyaa aur tez ho ga'ii_. Neither fish nor fowl.
> 
> Now, considering Faylasoof SaaHib's explanation for the other phrase "_because of / due to this", _what does the sentence really mean?"Because of/due to changing the chief minister, the political process has gained speed"?
> 
> or
> 
> "The political process has gained speed with regard to changing the CM"?
> 
> There are clearer ways to say either in Urdu.
> 
> Edit: the sentence is from 22 June while the CM resigned on 26 September.


I think the actual sentence is/ought to be..

مہاراشٹر میں وزیر اعلیٰ تبدیل کرنے کو لے کر سرگرمی تیز ہو گئی ہے۔


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## marrish

This is more than welcome a change in the sentence bringing it back to the fold of Urdu, but to the topic, this 'ko le kar' what does it mean here? Can you transliterate your post (for Hindi is there too?)


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## Qureshpor

The sentence is still....sorry I can't think of a polite word!

_mahaaraashTar meN waziir-e-a3aalaa *tabdiil karne ko le kar* siyaasii sar-garmii tez ho ga'ii hae_


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## gagun

marrish said:


> I've come across the usage le *kar ke*, bataa *kar ke*, has anybody heard it?



no but le *ke*,bataa *ke* is


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## marrish

Thank you. These are most popular: _le kar_, _le ke _but some people use_ le kar ke _too_._


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## marrish

Prof. Shamsur Rahman Faruqi from Allahabad, India, "luGhaat-e-roz-marrah":

لے کر ___ ہندی میں یہ فقرہ "بارے میں، موضوع بنا کر، موضوع بحث بنا کر، معاملے پر" وغیرہ کے مفہوم میں بولا جانے لگا ہے، شاید اس لئے کہ اردو کے منقولہ بالا روزمرے وہاں ٹھیک سے کھپتے نہیں ہیں۔ وجہ جو بھی ہو، اردو میں اس طرح کا صرف بے معنی ہے:

غلط اور قبیح: بڑھتی ہوئی مہنگائی کو لے کر ایوان میں بہت شورغل ہوا۔​
 صحیح:  . . . . . . . . کے معاملے پر \ کو موضوع بنا کر \ کے بارے میں. . . .​
غلط اور قبیح: طالب علموں نے داخلہ امتحان کو لے کر احتجاج کئے۔​
 صحیح: ۔. . . . کے معاملے پر \ کے بارے میں \ کو موضوع بنا کر. . . .​
غلظ اور قبیح: آج کل سب اسی بات کو لے کر پریشان ہیں۔​
  صحیح: . . . . اسی معاملے پر \ بات کے بارے میں . . . .​
غلط اور قبیح: انھوں نے افسانے کے کرداروں کو لے کر بہت آزردگی کا اظہار کیا۔​
 صحیح: . . . . . . . . کے بارے میں \ کو موضوع بنا کر. . . . . . . .​

_le kar  ____ hindii meN yih fiqrah “baare meN, mauzuu3 banaa kar, mauzuu3-e-baHs banaa kar, mu3aamale par” waGhairah ke mafhuum meN bolaa jaane lagaa hae, shaayad is li’e kih urduu ke manquula-e-baalaa rozmarre wahaaN Thiik se khapte nahiiN haiN. waj_h jo bhii ho, urduu meN is tarH kaa sarf bema3naa hae:_


_Ghalat aur qabiiH: baRhtii hu’ii mahaNgaa’ii ko le kar aiwaan meN bahut shor Ghul hu’aa._
_SaHiiH: … … ke mu3aamale par / ko mauzuu3 banaa kar / ke baare meN … …_
_Ghalat aur qabiiH: taalib3ilmoN ne daaxilah imtiHaan ko le kar iHtijaaj ki’e._
_SaHiiH: … … ke mu3aamale par / ke baare meN / ko mauzuu3 banaa kar … …_
_Ghalat aur qabiiH: aaj kal sab isii baat ko le kar pareshaan haiN._
_SaHiiH: isii mu3aamale par / baat ke baare meN_
_Ghalat aur qabiiH: unhoN ne afsaane ke kirdaaroN ko le kar bahut aazurdagii kaa iz_haar kiyaa._
_SaHiiH: … … ke baare meN / ko mauzuu3 banaa kar …_


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## Qureshpor

And just to make sure that everyone knows the meaning of the word "qabiiH" as used by Professor Faruqi in marrish SaaHib's post above.

SaHiiH: Correct
_Ghalat aur qabiiH: Wrong and ugly (which is a touch stronger than Alfaaz SaaHib's "annoying"!)_


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