# στρίβω/τρίβω



## Apollodorus

στρίβω /strivo/ normally means “to twist, turn” and τρίβω /trivo/ “to rub, grind”.

Can any of the two also mean “to press/crush” (or similar), or is there a phonetically close term with this meaning?

If you say that you τρίβεις ένα μήλο (triveis ena milo), you probably mean that you are “grating” an apple. But if it’s a tomato, for example, you could be “crushing” it.

In one of his culinary programmes (Εφιαλτης στην κουζινα S03E15), Ektoras Botrini is making tomato sauce for a snail dish.

(At about 30:6) he says παίρνομε τις σπασμένες τομάτες (pernomai tis spasmenes tomates). Then, taking one tomato in his hand, he holds it over the pan, saying (I think) και τις τρίβομε στο χέρι (kai tis trivome sto heri), before adding it to the other ingredients in the pan.

The English equivalent of τρίβομε (τρίβουμε) here seems to be something like “press” or “crush”?

Incidentally, while doing an online search for (σ)τρίβω /(s)trivo/, I came across Romanian strivi, “to crush”, that apparently comes from Slavonic sutryvati. Could there be a connection between the Greek, Slavonic and Romanian words?

It looks like Greek τρίβω /trivo/ (“to rub, grind”) is cognate with Slavonic сътрьти /sutriti/ (“to rub, crush”), both being from Proto-Indo-European (PIE) *_terh_

τρίβω, сътрьти, strivi | WordReference Forums

And I’m assuming τρίβω can be used in the sense of “crush” in certain contexts.


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## dirida

Hello dear friend,

Let me give you my justification as a native speaker.

As this is a clip of a live capturing, it's always good to bear in mind that linguistic mistakes can -and indeed do- often happen.
Especially when someone is speaking not only spontaneously but also under pressure, like Ektoras in this case, we tend to conjugate some poor verbs in various, strange, and wrong of course ways. Under normal circumstances, I think no one would say "παίρνουμε τις σπασμένες ντομάτες". Tomatoes can't even be broken. I think that if he was calm, he would rather say "παίρνουμε τις κομμένες/θρυμματισμένες ντομάτες" which means tomatoes that have been cut into many asymmetrical, kinda small pieces. Or if those tomatoes were sliced by a machine, like those in a can, he could say "παίρνουμε τις τεμαχισμένες ντομάτες" in order to indicate/highlight that most of the pieces are having around the same size.

Then, he said "...και τις τρίβουμε στο χέρι..." Now he means that he is using his hands as a "tool" in order to turn the tomato slices/pieces into smaller parts. His hands do the job of a grater, as the shape of the outcome doesn't seem to matter that much, as long as the tomatoes are smashed.


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## διαφορετικός

I thought the same as @dirida. On the other hand ...


Apollodorus said:


> And I’m assuming τρίβω can be used in the sense of “crush” in certain contexts.


yes, rubbing can mean grinding, which is a kind of crushing. Τριμμένο τυρί = ground cheese = crushed cheese.


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## Apollodorus

dirida said:


> Now he means that he is using his hands as a "tool" in order to turn the tomato slices/pieces into smaller parts. His hands do the job of a grater, as the shape of the outcome doesn't seem to matter that much, as long as the tomatoes are smashed.


Γεια σου φίλη μου!

Believe it or not, my first thought was that as a Greek-Italian, Ektoras’ Greek may not necessarily be 100% standard! 🙂

On second thoughts, he sounds pretty much Greek to me. Moreover, looking at the plate with tomatoes, you can see that some are deseeded (and cut into segments) whereas a couple of them are whole or nearly whole (slightly damaged/overripe?), hence arguably “σπασμένες” (“broken”)?

Anyway, after the wine, he first puts the “σπασμένες (ν)τομάτες” into the pan (στην κατσαρόλα) after visibly _squeezing or crushing_ them in his hand and then he adds the deseeded tomato pieces which he refers to as the “remainder” (το υπόλοιπο).

So, it seems to me that, whether intentionally or not, it does look like he means “crush” when he says “τις τρίβουμε στο χέρι”. And, if the tomatoes are admittedly “smashed”, isn’t that the same as “crushed”?

But maybe we should WhatsApp τον κύριο Ektora and warn him that he’s being closely watched by Greek learners, so he needs to clean up his act …. 😉


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## Apollodorus

διαφορετικός said:


> Τριμμένο τυρί = ground cheese = crushed cheese.



Well, _Swiss _cheese may be slightly different (🙂), but is “geriebener Käse”, in general, the same as “zerquetschter/zerdrückter Käse”? Not quite.

So, the two verbs seem to be interchangeable (or τρίβω can be used in the sense of "crush") only in _some _cases, like Ektora’s tomatoes, but not in others.


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## διαφορετικός

Apollodorus said:


> Well, Swiss cheese may be slightly different (🙂), but is “geriebener Käse”, in general, the same as “zerquetschter/zerdrückter Käse”? Not quite.


No, it's not the same. I used the following definition of "crush" from Wiktionary:


> To reduce to fine particles by pounding or grinding


Maybe this definition is not accurate.


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## Apollodorus

διαφορετικός said:


> No, it's not the same. I used the following definition of "crush" from Wiktionary:
> 
> Maybe this definition is not accurate.



It says:

"Crush - 1. To press between two hard objects; to squeeze so as to alter the natural shape or integrity of it, or to force together into a mass. quotations ▼_to *crush* grapes"_

"To press between two hard objects", e.g., between the human hand and the grater, sounds OK.

So does "to squeeze so as to alter the natural shape or integrity of it", if we take it as a description of cheese being squeezed through the holes in the grater.

But _crushed _cheese neither looks nor tastes like _grated _cheese! So, something is wrong there, which is confirmed by the fact that crushed grapes don't look like anything _grated_.

Obviously, some pressure is being applied in grating as in crushing. But what is missing in crushing is the rubbing and squeezing through holes or cutting blades _as to shred_, which is the main action that gives the grated or shredded substance its typical shape.

Hence, Grate - To shred (things, usually foodstuffs), by rubbing across a grater.

grate - Wiktionary

That's why Ektoras' tomatoes are best described as "crushed" (in the hand) rather than "grated", although the verb he's using here is τρίβω which usually means "to rub/grate".


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## dirida

Oh well, ποιός τη χάρη του! 

His pronunciation is on point, I think you can definitely trust him regarding how a word sounds. But for every specific word he chooses -spontaneously, remember- maybe you're beginning a journey of confusion.  

"Παίρνουμε τις σπασμένες ντομάτες..την καρδιά, το ρίχνουμε μέσα.. και τις τρίβουμε στο χέρι."

This sentence is all over the place. Firstly he refers to the tomatoes as feminine (which is right) in the plural, then as neutral in the singular, and finally again in feminine and plural. Apart from that, I insist that a tomato can't be broken. It could be _hit_ during its transportation in a truck, or even worse _cracked_. But broken? In greek, you could use the verb σπάω/σπάζω and the adjective σπασμένος/η/ο accordingly, for foodstuffs such as a bar of chocolate, biscuits, or walnuts. When you break one of these, the result is smaller but still _solid _parts of it. In this case, I think that "παίρνουμε τις κομμένες ντομάτες" fits best. 

Τομάτες without the n is also correct, but kind of dated. You will find it in books, but not often hear it.


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## Apollodorus

dirida said:


> This sentence is all over the place. Firstly he refers to the tomatoes as feminine (which is right) in the plural, then as neutral in the singular, and finally again in feminine and plural.


True, that “sentence” is definitely a bit suspect. Maybe that’s what creates the confusion. In other words, one confusion leads to another, as you say. 🙂

So, basically, he should have said “κομμένες/θρυμματισμένες ντομάτες” instead of “σπασμένες”.

But what should he have used for “cracked” (as in overripe or squashed in the shopping bag)?

What does he mean by "καρδιά"?

What verb other than "τρίβω" should he use (a) for what he does with the whole (or nearly whole) tomato in his hand and (b) if he were to literally crush the tomato with his hand?


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## velisarius

Apollodorus said:


> But what should he have used for “cracked” (as in overripe or squashed in the shopping bag)?



_Ζουληγμένες/λιωμένες  ντομάτες._


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## Αγγελος

Apollodorus said:


> Well, _Swiss _cheese may be slightly different (🙂), but is “geriebener Käse”, in general, the same as “zerquetschter/zerdrückter Käse”? Not quite.
> 
> So, the two verbs seem to be interchangeable (or τρίβω can be used in the sense of "crush") only in _some _cases, like Ektora’s tomatoes, but not in others.


τριμμένο τυρί is normally called 'grated cheese' in English, I think.
It can be marketed as a powder (grated parmesan is sold in this form) or as thin filaments (softer cheeses, such as gruyère or emmental, are sold in this form). Of course, it can be grated by hand. 
τρίβω definitely _used to _mean 'crush' -- after all, an olive press is ελαιοτριβείο. But συντρίβω is more frequent if you are talking about a large object (e.g. a plane that crashes) and λιώνω (properly 'to melt') if you are thinking about squeezing a small object, such as a bug, to a pulp. Crushing something under a weight without necessarily deforming it is πλακώνω.
τριβή = friction.


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## Apollodorus

Αγγελος said:


> τριμμένο τυρί is normally called 'grated cheese' in English, I think.


Correct. If it's grated, it is called "grated cheese" in (British) English.



Αγγελος said:


> Of course, it can be grated by hand.


Presumably, "grated by hand" in the sense of using a manual grater (τρίφτης). But can it still be "τριμμένο" using the hands only?

I've just noticed that in another video (Εφιαλτης στην κουζινα S04E02), at about 37:36, o kyrios Ektoras seems to be mincing the meat from a sausage with his fingers before putting it in a bowl and says “tora to triveis”. So, it looks like by “trivo” he means something like “to mince” in this case.

Arguably, he was mincing (not “squashing”) the “spasmenes ntomates” mentioned before (but _not_ the seeded ones on the same chopping board that he had already cut into segments). Though, to me, in the case of the tomatoes the action he does with his hand looks more like crushing or squashing, than mincing, to be quite honest.

But if τρίβω _used_ to mean “crush”, then I wasn’t entirely wrong. Maybe there is some truth in Plato’s Theory of Recollection** *and I had an inkling of τρίβω from an earlier incarnation …. 🙂

***«Ἅτε οὖν ἡ ψυχὴ ἀθάνατός τε οὖσα καὶ πολλάκις γεγονυῖα, καὶ ἑωρακυῖα καὶ τὰ ἐνθάδε καὶ τὰ ἐν Ἅιδου καὶ πάντα χρήματα, οὐκ ἔστιν ὅτι οὐ μεμάθηκεν» (Μένων 81ξ).

Δηλαδή,

«Επειδή λοιπόν η ψυχή είναι αθάνατος, και έχει γεννηθή επανειλημμένως, και έχει ιδεί όλα τα πράγματα, και εδώ και εις τον Άδην, δεν υπάρχει τίποτε που να μη το έχει μάθει».


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