# בלי / ללא



## Welton

And are there other ways to say "without"?


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## scriptum

ללא seems to belong to a higher register; it is mostly found in idiomatic expressions, such as
ללא רבב
ללא פגע
ללא רוח חיים
etc.

I cannot remember any other word with the same meaning.


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## Akis

ללא is not used to mean 'without smth' on its own. Scriptum is right to say that it is used in certain expressions, I do not see it possible to incorporate it 
universally. Others like it would be:  חסר-


 "מבלי" used the same way as "בלי"


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## scriptum

Akis said:


> Others like it would be:
> ' חסר' as in " חסר כל _ספק_" - with no doubt/without a shade of doubt


Hi Akis, and welcome to the forum.
חסר means “lacking”.
There seems to be no such expression as “חסר כל ספק”. You probably mistook for it the expression “למען הסר כל ספק” (“in order to remove any doubt”). הסר here is what is called “the absolute infinitive” form of the verb להסיר “to remove”.


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## Akis

scriptum said:


> Hi Akis, and welcome to the forum.
> חסר means “lacking”.
> There seems to be no such expression as “חסר כל ספק”. You probably mistook for it the expression “למען הסר כל ספק” (“in order to remove any doubt”). הסר here is what is called “the absolute infinitive” form of the verb להסיר “to remove”.



Oh, than I must have apologies. 
At any rate I believe חסר  is also synonym, like when you say "חסר טעם" 
(which I do hope is not another trick of my imagination)


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## scriptum

Akis said:


> I believe חסר is also synonym, like when you say "חסר טעם"


I think you are right - only it must be said that חסר is more restricted syntactically.
חסר בושה: shameless
ללא בושה may function both as _shameless_ and _shamelessly_.


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## amikama

Another difference that came to my mind is that only בלי can be followed by an infinite:
הוא יצא מכאן בלי להגיד שלום 
הוא יצא מכאן ללא להגיד שלום


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## Clara_

Akis said:


> "מבלי" used the same way as "בלי"



Hi, is there really no difference between מבלי and בלי? 
I think that I came more often across בלי than מבלי, would the first word be more colloquial then?
Thank you.


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## scriptum

Clara_ said:


> would the first word be more colloquial then?


Yes.


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## origumi

Clara_ said:


> Hi, is there really no difference between מבלי and בלי?
> I think that I came more often across בלי than מבלי, would the first word be more colloquial then?
> Thank you.


בלי appears 25 times in the Bible, מבלי appears 19 times. Therefore historically speaking I don't think that any of them can be regarded as colloquial. It is true that in modern language בלי is used often and מבלי seldom.


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## arielipi

yes it is origoumi.
im trying to think of a real diffrence and its only syntax. its just like you can say gladdena nd not enhappy...
bli is more of without and lelo is more of with not
lelo revav - with not [one single] spot [of dirt]
bli revav - without [one] spot
bli lehagid - without saying
lelo lehagid - with not saying[even in english it sounds wrong].

perhaps thats more correct
ps1: minli = bli only higher plain of speaking
ps2 - khasar is lack,though sometimes it can act as bli and lelo (see above for examples)


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## scriptum

arielipi said:


> even in english it sounds wrong


There is choice between בלי and מבלי only before an infinitive.


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## arielipi

i dont think youre right scriptum

you can say mibli + verb 
but the verb must be in a certain binyan... mibli haf'el oto
mibli achaltiv.
i think the mi of mibli is actually a short form of im bli - with-out


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## origumi

scriptum said:


> There is choice between בלי and מבלי only before an infinitive.


היאכל תפל מבלי מלח?

In the Bible - some cases of מבלי in are before a verb form that technically speaking is not infinitive but in modern Hebrew would usually be replaced by an infinitive. Other cases has nothing to do with infinitive. Regarding מבלי in Modern Hebrew - I think that we follow the Biblical language, so there are various use cases.


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## scriptum

origumi said:


> היאכל תפל מבלי מלח?


I meant: in the modern language, of course.
I may be mistaken, but I don't remember having ever heard anybody say mibli NOT before an infinitive.
Unless for purposes of biblical stylization.


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## arbelyoni

> And are there other ways to say "without"?



There's לית, which is Aramaic for "there's no". It is prevalent in fixed phrases and expressions:
בלית ברירה
לית דין ולית דיין


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## arielipi

+1 ארבל!
יש גם בלתי:
bilti, sometimes bil(e)ti
בלתי עמו
without him
usually used as rhetorical question that is meant to support the speaker.
also biblical but it is still heard.
יש גם את הנפוצים
בלעדי,מלבד,אף,חוץ מ


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