# in / un (prononciation)



## floppydream

Bonjour

My book (a current, respectable publication (Living Language) written by someone from Alliance Française) claims that there is a difference in pronunciation between nasal vowel sounds in *fin* and *un*. The author makes a distinction between in, ain, ein on one side, and *un* on the other. Hein? C'est vrai?

Merci beaucoup de votre aide


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## jann

Hello floppydream 

You will certainly find that the pronunciations of the vowels in _fin_ (fɛ̃) and _un_ (œ̃) are distinct in French dictionaries.  Tendances in every day speech, however...

We have an extensive thread with resources on phonetics and pronunciation in our Resources subforum.  Please read through the links and listen to some of the recordings listed there.  


PS. In that thread, you will also find several links to online IPA keyboards to help you type out the phonetic symbols when discussing vowels... use Lucida Sans Unicode font.


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## moe0204

I would say "un" is just between "in" and "on"...
(Je fais de mon mieux, mais c'est pas très facile par écrit...)


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## LARSAY

When a French person says _fin, un, hein, _if you can hear a difference in tone, you really have the best ears that anybody can have!


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## moe0204

LARSAY said:


> When a French person says _fin, un, hein, _if you can hear a difference in tone, you really have the best hears that anybody can have!



I totally disagree ! There is a big difference in pronunciation between "un" and "hein", "Alain" and "alun", ec.


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## broglet

floppydream said:


> Bonjour
> 
> My book (a current, respectable publication (Living Language) written by someone from Alliance Francaise) claims that there is a difference in pronunciation between nasal vowel sounds in *fin* and *un*. The author makes a distinction between in, ain, ein on one side, and *un* on the other. Hein? C'est vrai?
> 
> Merci beaucoup de votre aide


Yes, there is usually a clear difference - and _pace _LARSAY I don't think you need special ears to hear it. But as jann says everyday speech can disguise it - and there may be regional variations. For me, the difference seems to be that 'un' is a more 'rounded' sound (and the mouth is rounder and more relaxed); 'fin' is a more 'stretched' sound (and the lips are stretched back).


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## MindBoggle

Bonjour à tous.

I'm looking at prononciation guides on the internet, and some of them say there are 4 different nasal vowels in French (and they generally give this example: un bon vin blanc /œ̃ bɔ̃ vɛ̃ blɑ̃/).

BUT: Other guides speak of only 3 different nasal vowels, instructing learners to rhyme 'un' and 'vin'.

So, are there 3 or 4? Or does it depend on where the speaker comes from?

In short: Shold I pronounce "l'un" and "lin" the same? (/lɛ̃/)

Merci en avance
MindBoggle


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## snarkhunter

I personally cannot _hear_ any obvious difference between "un" and "vin", so I would say more three than four. But I know that linguists distinguish four. As a matter of fact, there might be a very slight difference between "un" and "vin", the former being somehow "flatter", and the latter, kind of "sharper". But that's really not much, actually.


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## djweaverbeaver

I know that I've read somewhere before that in Metropolitan French dialects (or at least the Parisian French dialect), the distinction between *brun *and *brin *for instance is disappearing, so maybe this is why you've read that there are 3 sounds.  Traditionally, yes, there are four, and many still teach this.


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## CapnPrep

There are 4 nasal vowels in standard French, but many speakers of Northern Metropolitan French only have three. This has been discussed at some length in some other threads in addition to this one, for example:
*un vs. vin -- the claim of different vowel sounds**
Doubt about the sounds of EN, AN, UN and IN

*It is up to you (and to your instructor, if any) whether you want to maintain the full set of nasal vowels in your pronunciation. In writing, of course, the spellings corresponding to [œ̃] and [ɛ̃] must always be kept distinct.


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## MindBoggle

Merci à tous!

I've read the other threads.
As far as I can see, the confusion is due to the fact that the answer to my question is changing as we speak. There used to be 4 different nasal vowels - and still is in large parts of the French speaking world - but in other parts (like Paris) the UN sound has been replaced by the IN sound, leaving only 3 nasal vowels (making 'brun' and 'brin' homophones).

I'll remember to listen for this IN/UN-issue among French speakers in the future. Maybe I can guess where they come from?

MindBoggle


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## bobepine

If it's any help, floppydream, the francophones closest to you (*waves from Quebec*) still keep the four nasal vowels distinct.


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## Blougouz

Where you are from...also in the French country, from which region, etc.
Most of French speakers clearly make a difference.
I think that @broglet covers it when he gives you the example of the lingerie! Pronounced by like in English or like in French, you will hear more clearly the difference! The English speaker say « un » instead of « in »!

I guess your fellow wanted to make your life easier as not saying the difference, you will be still totally understood?


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## jekoh

The majority in France pronounce "in" and "un" the same.


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## DearPrudence

France might be little more than a village to Americans, but it's still quite big to our European standards  

I wouldn't go as far as Blougouz saying that _most _French speakers clearly make the difference, but yes, this issue still divides French speakers:
Ces prononciations qui divisent la France
brin / brun - prononciation des digrammes "in" et "un" : [ɛ̃] / [œ̃] (discussion in the French Only forum)

(personally, I can't hear the difference I'm afraid )


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## Yendred

There is a difference when you speak properly, but depending on the regions of France, the difference may vanish. In the south of France, "in" and "un" both tend to be pronounced like "in", and in the northern regions of France, they both tend to be pronounced like "un".

Try these links:
Prononciation de brin : Comment prononcer brin en Français, Slovène
Prononciation de brun : Comment prononcer brun en Français, Portugais, Norvégien bokmål, Suédois, Roumain, Danois, Interlingua
(the pronounciation by 'lebelge' clearly highlights the difference)
And don't be afraid if you can't hear the difference. It's hard for a French ear too


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## tartopom

I can't pronounce _brin_ and _brun_ differently. _Il a des cheveux br*uns* avec *un* br*in* d'herbe accroché._ I'm going to repeat the same sound 3 times.


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## Yendred

"_Alain_" and "_alun_" are a good example to tell the difference, the second being rare enough for people to carefully pronounce it.


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## jekoh

Yendred said:


> There is a difference when you speak properly, but depending on the regions of France, the difference may vanish. In the south of France, "in" and "un" both tend to be pronounced like "in", and in the northern regions of France, they both tend to be pronounced like "un".


No, in Southern France they usually pronounce "in" different from "un".



Yendred said:


> "_Alain_" and "_alun_" are a good example to tell the difference, the second being rare enough for people to carefully pronounce it.


I pronounce _Alain_ and _alun_ the same.


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## Yendred

broglet said:


> For me, the difference seems to be that 'un' is a more 'rounded' sound (and the mouth is rounder and more relaxed); 'fin' is a more 'stretched' sound (and the lips are stretched back).



Although the post is old, it was from for an English native that came the proper way to pronounce these French sounds.


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## Yendred

I noted that in Britanny, people clearly make the difference.
As a Paris region native, I try to make it, most of the time, but in the middle of a conversation, it may not be so obvious... 

But I would clearly pronounce _Alain_ and _alun_ differently, as I quoted before, because of the relative rareness of _alun._


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## merquiades

For people pronouncing _brin _and _brun_, _Alain_ and _alun_ the same, which vowel has disappeared?  Has your _in_ become _un_, or your _un_ become _in_, or do they meet in the middle?
So weird to think of someone saying _In américun_, _In parfaim._  I'm glad I didn't pick that up.


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## Yendred

_in _and _un _generally tend to be pronounced like _in, _because the _in _syllable is more frequent.
But in the extreme North of France, it tends to be the opposite.



merquiades said:


> So weird to think of someone saying _In américun_, _In parfaim._



I agree  That's why I'm a bit annoyed to hear natives claim there's no difference.

Try to ask people to say this phrase:
_Lundi, un Indien montra son chemin à un nain indien._


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## jekoh

Yendred said:


> But in the extreme North of France, it tends to be the opposite.


No, it does not. Where did you get that from?



merquiades said:


> For people pronouncing _brin _and _brun_, _Alain_ and _alun_ the same, which vowel has disappeared?  Has your _in_ become _un_, or your _un_ become _in_, or do they meet in the middle?


I think "un" has disappeared, as evidenced by the fact that Southerners notice/criticize our pronunciation of _brun_, _parfum_, not that of _pain_ or _Alain_.


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## petit1

Je suis du centre-ouest de la France, au sud de la Loire et je prononce différemment les deux sons "in" et "un" . C'est peut-être dû à l'exigence du corps enseignant de mon enfance ; les instits étaient alors très pointilleux sur la prononciation.
Je retrouve parfaitement mon ressenti dans ce que disait *moe0204* au post 3.
Le son dans "un / lundi / alun / être à jeun " est entre "in" et "on" ; les lèvres forment un "O". 
Dans "brindille / fin / faim / plein "  le son est émis avec les lèvres plus étirées (comme pour dire "a").


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## dattse

Quebec French seems to be more conservative, for it has preserved the distinction between "défunt" and "des fins". Similarly, the distinction between "de" and "deux" seems to be disappearing in France (I asked my French professor) whereas it is fully preserved in Quebec.


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## Yendred

Once again, forvo is a good source:
Prononciation de de : Comment prononcer de en Français
Prononciation de deux : Comment prononcer deux en Français

The pronunciation by splOuf makes the difference clearly.


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## Blougouz

And you can hear the difference between ‘in’ and ‘un’ the same way!
Here with
Anatolien commun, sainfoin commun, indoeuropéen commun...

Prononciations pour Commun (de commun à quelque chose de commun)


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## merquiades

_De_ is usually reduced to _d'_.  _Deux_ is always pronounced strongly.  It's an important difference to make.  _Pas de thé,  pas deux thés_.


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## Reynald

C'est aussi une question de génération. Les moins de trente ans - en France, du moins - n'entendent plus et ne font plus du tout la différence (article de B. Cerquiglini).


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## JClaudeK

MindBoggle said:


> I'm looking at prononciation guides on the internet, and some of them say there are 4 different nasal vowels in French (and they generally give this example: un bon vin blanc /œ̃ bɔ̃ vɛ̃ blɑ̃/).
> 
> BUT: Other guides speak of only 3 different nasal vowels, instructing learners to rhyme 'un' and 'vin'.
> 
> So, are there 3 or 4? Or does it depend on where the speaker comes from?



J'ai trouvé cette excellente vidéo sur le sujet. _(giving the link has been approved by a Mod)_


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## itka

La différence entre [ɛ̃] et [œ̃] était déjà perdue il y a environ 70 ans ! J'ai eu une discussion très énervée  à cette époque, avec une petite copine d'école qui arrivait de Paris et ne les distinguait pas, alors que pour moi (sud-est) ces deux sons étaient totalement différents...
Les langues évoluent et leurs systèmes phonologiques aussi, même si c'est plus long et laborieux que pour le lexique, par exemple. 
Ici, le français, clairement, élimine progressivement cette quatrième voyelle nasale et sans doute il peut le faire, car elle est très peu productive :
- le [œ̃] n'apparaît que dans peu d'occurrences : un (et tous les mots composés avec "un") brun, parfum, défunt, emprunt, commun, alun, à jeun, lundi... j'en oublie peut-être un ou deux, mais guère plus,
- et il ne distingue que rarement des paires minimales :
brin ~brun ; lin ~l'un ; des fins ~ défunt ; Alain ~ alun... bien peu de risques de les confondre !

Encore quelques années et plus personne ne se souviendra que le français a comporté quatre nasales !


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## swift

itka said:


> Encore quelques années et plus personne ne se souviendra que le français a comporté quatre nasales !


Voire plus, si l’on en croit les enquêtes menées par Martinet ? Walter ? Certains locuteurs en produisaient 6 ou davantage ! 

La distinction ne s’apprend plus en milieu FLE (français langue étrangère), et cela depuis plusieurs décennies !


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## Yendred

swift said:


> La distinction ne s’apprend plus en milieu FLE (français langue étrangère), et cela depuis plusieurs décennies !



Il faut dire que la langue française possède bien d'autres difficultés pour un apprenant étranger. Autant ne pas en rajouter avec une distinction peu fondamentale comme la prononciation entre "_in_" et "_un_".


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## itka

> Voire plus, si l’on en croit les enquêtes menées par Martinet ? Walter ? Certains locuteurs en produisaient 6 ou davantage !


Mais là, je suppose qu'il s'agit de phonétique et chaque son peut se réaliser de cinquante façons différentes, phonétiquement...
Je parlais de phonologie, c'est-à-dire du système vocalique où seules 3 (ou 4) nasales sont _distinctives._


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## pointvirgule

itka said:


> Encore quelques années et plus personne ne se souviendra que le français a comporté quatre nasales !


Plus personne en Europe, tu veux dire.


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