# 光顾



## L3P

大家好，


In the sentence 希望您再来光顾 - 光顾 means  'to visit (as a customer)' - 'I hope you call again'.
My try could`ve been 'to honor with a visit', (光 =  'light' -> 'honor; glory'), but then  I heard a guy say  
我再也不去光顾那家商店了, meaning 'I`ll never visit the shop again', and I thought it`d be rather pompous for him 
to mean 'I won`t honor the shop with a visit again'. So,could anyone help me interpret the phrase  光顾,please?


谢谢。


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## Fungk

光 itself means light

but when they are together, they have a totally different meaning

光顾 = visit (usually shop)


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## SuperXW

Most Chinese won't separate every character in a word and try to make sense of them. But if you insist, here's your answer:
光的解释|光的意思|汉典“光”字的基本解释
According to the online dictionary, the second meaning of 光 is “honor”, like what you've suggested.
Instead of interpreting it as "to honor with a visit", I'd rather interpret it as "to visit honorably" or "to visit with honor". I'll treat "visit" as the center verb as the center verb goes after the adjunct (adverbs etc.) in Chinese. 光 is just an adjunct of 顾.
A similar word is 光临.


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## L3P

Thanks very much,SuperXW,I appreciate you spelling it out for me!



SuperXW said:


> Most Chinese won't separate every character in a word and try to make sense of them.



I`m not a Chinese yet,I`m just learning ,but I hope with your guys help to get a feeling for language soon enough.



SuperXW said:


> here's your answer:
> 光的解释|光的意思|汉典“光”字的基本解释



It`s a gorgeous dictionary indeed,I have to admit, and I use it to trace characters` 字源字形,可是子的意义我还看不懂


Thanks again!


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## SuperXW

It's ok if you can't fully understand the dictionary, that's why I've explained the major point about our issue.

You are not a Chinese yet, and I won't hope you will eventually become one.  Anyhow, even for the real Chinese, we don't always disassemble words to learn it. Sometimes we just memorize the whole word, disregarding the details.


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## Mamanunique

我再也不去光顾那家商店了 In fact, it's not decent of him to say this  except that he has been treated unfairly and he wants to show his anger.
You don't have to separate the word to make sure its meaning ,when separated ,it has quite different meanings. For example, 你别光顾着玩.
光顾 is used to show the respect from the shop keeper or business owner. And 光顾 ,sometimes ,has a sarcastic meaning. For example, 他家昨晚被小偷光顾了.( His house was visited by a burglar)


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## L3P

Oh,I see now.So,it`s not a word I can use in everyday life to mean 'to shop','to visit a shop'. Thanks a lot,Mamanunique!


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## Mamanunique

Yes, to be polite ,you can't use it that way.


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## brofeelgood

I disagree. There's nothing invidious with sentences like:

- 我们经常光顾那间酒吧. 
- We frequent that bar.

- 这家餐馆有很多人光顾.
- This restaurant has a large clientele.


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## Mamanunique

brofeelgood said:


> 我们经常光顾那间酒吧.


光顾是敬词用在这里不恰当，对自己要用谦词对别人要用敬词。不过可能误用的人太多就习以为常而已。（ 常用谦词和敬词 敬词第八 ）


第二句由于说的是别人，没有问题。这家餐馆有很多人光顾 is similar to 他家昨晚被小偷光顾了. But this time 光顾 is not sarcastic.


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## brofeelgood

敢问(谦8) 你的意思是"光顾"用于己方就带有不谦不敬或嘲讽之意呢,还是"光顾"这词压根儿就不适用于己方?


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## Mamanunique

对自己用敬词，就跟提问者所说的一样，过于自大了。

比如下级到上级家里拜访，说自己光临领导的寒舍，你说合适不。


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## L3P

太遗憾了，但我看不懂，what was the result of your discussion,guys? At least in a couple of words.


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## Mamanunique

L3P said:


> 太遗憾了，但我看不懂，what was the result of your discussion,guys? At least in a couple of words.


Look at this 常用谦词和敬词 ,use the 谦词 when you mention yourself, and the 敬词 when other people. And you'll find the word 光顾 in 敬词 the 8th.


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## brofeelgood

Mamanunique said:


> 是敬8，对自己用敬词，就跟提问者所说的一样，过于自大了。
> 
> 比如下级到上级家里拜访，说自己光临领导的寒舍，你说合适不。



这句话对着领导直说当然不合适. 况且,哪有人把人家府上称为寒舍的.

就简简单单一句陈述句,说常去一间酒吧,用了"光顾"两字就多了尊卑之分,显得自大? 这怎么都说不通.

- 这间老字号面馆,我已经光顾了十几年. 
- 下次有机会,一定光临贵府.

我左右上下怎么看都不觉得这说法有什么不妥.


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## Mamanunique

看看这个吧，对光顾的解释都是尊称他人的。 我想，只是我们说多了，听习惯了也就觉得没什么不妥了。
广府话不说光顾某家店，而会说帮衬某家店，我觉得更贴切。

下次有机会，一定到府上拜访，会更好。

"光"可以推断为“赏光” ， 我“赏光”给某人而到他家去，或者去某家店消费就是给他们赏光了。我去那里是他们的荣幸，他们就可以光耀门庭了。是不是让人感觉很自大呢？起码不谦逊。


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## Skatinginbc

Hi, L3P
It is the habit of analyzing each morphological element that led you to suspect 光顾 means more than "to shop, to visit" and enabled you to correctly capture the nuance of 'to honor with a visit'.  Some native speakers like Mamanunique, who thought "You don't have to separate the word to make sure its meaning" (#6), still have to resort to the analysis of each element at the end of the day (e.g., "光"可以推断为“赏光”, #16) in order to explain why a certain connotation (e.g., 敬词) exists.  The purpose of this thread, as I see it, is "_to_ _get a feeling_" (#4) for the language (光顾 in this case).  It takes native speakers years of immersion in the language to acquire "association" (based on frequency of collocation, e.g., #16: 听习惯了也就觉得没什么不妥了).  They also acquire the feelings through morphological analysis.  For example, why do I think the expression "他家昨晚被小偷光顾了" is rather cute?  Because the morpheme "光" also carries the connotation of "emptying" ==> His house was "emptied" by a thief.


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## fyl

brofeelgood said:


> - 这间老字号面馆,我已经光顾了十几年.
> - 下次有机会,一定光临贵府.


第一句话我觉得某些情况下或许可以，因为我总觉得“光顾”有搞笑嘲讽或者其他不好的意思，可能是我想多了。
第二句话非常非常非常不妥。


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## brofeelgood

Mamanunique said:


> *下次有机会，一定到府上拜访*，会更好*。*



按照你提供的依据,"拜"这字属于敬词(1),这句话不也显得目中无人了?



fyl said:


> 第二句话非常非常非常不妥。



确实有点不伦不类,让见笑了.


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## Mamanunique

brofeelgood said:


> 按照你提供的依据,"拜"这字属于敬词(1),这句话不也显得目中无人了?


字面意思上看，“光”是处于高高在上的位置，而“拜”是把自己处于较低的位置，怎么可能会是目中无人。
别人来，用光临。 自己去，用拜访。


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## Skatinginbc

I have to jump in to support our Bro.  I feel nothing wrong with saying something like "We *patronized* the restaurant" (我们经常光顾那间酒吧. 这间老字号面馆,我已经光顾了十几年). Yes, it sounds "patronizing" but the golden motto is: Customers are always right (顧客是衣食父母). 我左右上下怎么看都不觉得这说法有什么不妥.


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## Mamanunique

平时这样说说没什么，别人能理解。但要是出现在考试里，那就丢分咯。
光顾 第7题，后面有解释。


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## Skatinginbc

Mamanunique said:


> 光顾 第7题，后面有解释。


It says: “光顾”是一个敬词，系主人表示对客人的到来感到荣光，客人当然没有自称自己的“下顾”使主人感到“光彩”的道理。
That argument rests upon a "主客" attitude, with the store owner being 主人 and the customer being 客人.  That mentality, however, is not universal.  It can be a "client vs. service provider" relation, in which the aforesaid "主人" 反成 "僕" (like "government official" is now considered "public servant" 公僕).

Let's re-examine the test question: 我先后两次光顾，都是自助餐。 The reason that 光顾 is inappropriate in that sentence is solely syntactic, nothing to do with whether it is a 敬词 or not.


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## Mamanunique

就是因为它是敬词所以不能这么个用法。相反要是这句话不是顾客自己说，而是商家说的，人称换一下，那就是对的。比如：服务员说：”他先后两次*光顾*，都是自助餐。“
换了不是敬词而是其他词那换过来还是对的。比如：我先后两次*来这消费*都是自助餐。服务员说：”他先后两次*来这消费*都是自助餐“  。


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## Skatinginbc

Mamanunique said:


> 服务员说：”他先后两次光顾，都是自助餐。“


That sentence is still grammatically wrong in my book. 
他先后两次光顾的(購買的, 吃的)都是自助餐。


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## Mamanunique

那是口语，语法不重要。而且我们讨论的不是其他语法问题。


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## Skatinginbc

既然是"口语", 為何"平时这样说说没什么，别人能理解"(#22) 的 "口语" 就不成了呢?


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## Mamanunique

Skatinginbc said:


> 既然是"口语", 為何"平时这样说说没什么，别人能理解"(#22) 的 "口语" 就不成了呢?


那是生活中别人能容忍你的错误，考试就不行了。


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## Skatinginbc

語言考试能容忍语法错误, 卻不能容忍個人態度的分歧(e.g., not following the "主客" mentality), 這豈非思想控制, 本末倒置?


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## Mamanunique

传统思想中，作为主人，要对客人恭敬。作为客人要对主人恭敬。主客非常分明。
用错了敬语的话，那就真的是主客不分了。


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## simonchg

同意 Mamanuniue。
敬辞谦辞本身就是语言文化的重要元素。

比如在英语里要征得允许，用 ‘can I’ 是非常没有礼貌的。对方可能出于*他的礼节*宽容你而回复 ‘Yes, you can’，但并不代表 'may I' 不必须。Connotation 真的很重要。

如果不是朋友间*打趣*而说”我经常光顾这家店“，听起来会有自以为是（condescending）的意味。




L3P said:


> 太遗憾了，但我看不懂，what was the result of your discussion,guys? At least in a couple of words.


Apparently we haven't agreed yet. Connotation has been the focus.


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## Skatinginbc

Please remember that the sentences given by Brofeelgood are: 我们经常光顾那间酒吧 and 这间老字号面馆,我已经光顾了十几年.  To whom will you utter those sentences?  Obviously, they are not spoken to the owners of the stores because, for instance, "那间酒吧" does not mean "your bar".  I don't get the impression of 自以为是 when someone reveals an attitude of "顧客至上" to his friends.


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## Mamanunique

顾客是谁的顾客？当然是商店的顾客。问题不在于跟谁说话，而在于说话者跟那家店的关系谁是主谁是客。
实际上顾客至上，顾客是上帝这类话都是商家恭维、讨好顾客的。


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## Skatinginbc

我想到那學生家裡察看 ==> 没什麼不禮貌的; 我经常光顾那间酒吧 ==> 没什麼不禮貌的
我想到你家察看 ==> 不客氣; 我经常光顾你的酒吧 ==> 不客氣 (Here, 不客氣 = not behaving like a guest; 客 = guest).


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## Mamanunique

Skatinginbc said:


> 不客氣 (Here, 不客氣 = not behaving like a guest; 客 = guest)


客人到主人家，主人对客人恭恭敬敬，客人也应对主人恭恭敬敬。说的是他们都得互相尊敬，不是单方面的。这时候他们都会表现得很拘谨。主人叫客人不要客气，是叫客人不要太拘谨了。客人说那我不客气啦，意思是得到主人允许，我不那么拘谨了。
其他的前面已经说得很明白，在其他地方也能找到很多敬词和谦词的用法。就不累赘了。


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## Skatinginbc

What's your point, Mamanunique?  I don't get it.


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## simonchg

Skatinginbc said:


> Please remember that the sentences given by Brofeelgood are: 我们经常光顾那间酒吧 and 这间老字号面馆,我已经光顾了十几年.  To whom will you utter those sentences?  Obviously, they are not spoken to the owners of the stores because, for instance, "那间酒吧" does not mean "your bar".  I don't get the impression of 自以为是 when someone reveals an attitude of "顧客至上" to his friends.


At this point, context matters.

For example,


> 我经常光顾那间酒吧，*但*酒保完全没认出我。
> I 光顾 the bar quite often,* but* the bartender didn't recognize me at all.


It is a '_de facto_' condescension towards 'the bartender', apparently a third party in this sentence. But I would accept it because the speaker is complaining casually about the treatment he received. It is natural to use a word with connotations of superiority, like '光顾'.


> 我经常光顾那间酒吧，*所以*酒保一眼就认出了我。
> I 光顾 the bar quite often, *so* the bartender recognized me at once.


This sentence looks appropriate to me ONLY when I *realise* that the speaker was trying to use his sense of humor and portray himself as a "frequent customer" who deserves the recognition from the bartender. What 'bout a touch of superiority? Why not?

All the above are with context. When '我经常光顾那间酒吧' comes alone, I would think it kind of incomplete because it has a subtly uncomfortable connotation

To tell the same story, I would say '我经常去那间酒吧 (I often go to the bar)‘, which is plain and neutral.


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## Skatinginbc

我经常去那兒.  Where is 那兒?  We don't know when the sentence stands alone, but by all standards it is a complete sentence.
我经常光顧燕春楼.  I mean: 我经常光著屁股照顧燕春楼(的小姐).  You won't know it unless there is more context.  Even so, it is still a complete sentence.
我经常光顧那间酒吧.  Yes, it has an undetermined innuendo when stand-alone, but I see nothing wrong with it as a complete sentence.


simonchg said:


> At this point, context matters.


Of course, context always matters.  For example, "我很不滿意" is a good sentence.  It becomes odd, however, if you put it in this context: 這家店的服務很好, 我很不滿意.  One can always find a context where a good sentence becomes wrong.  To me, 我经常光顧那间酒吧 is an utterance with an attitude.  One can easily find a context where that extra attitude does not fit.


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## brofeelgood

Gosh, what's happening here?

Isn't 光顾 simply giving patronage to a shop? I am not disputing the esteem that you're bestowing on the customer with 光顾 as regards his visit to your establishment when you're addressing him directly. But somehow this attitude flips around and becomes patronising when the statement is conveyed to someone else, who might not even be a part of the content, simply because the term contains 光, which magically turns it into a 敬词? Then, when the sentence subject shifts from first to third person, the taint is removed and it becomes acceptable again? Ye gods this is... hard.

幫襯 in Cantonese and 光顧 are synonyms, as stated by 國語辭典, but yet 幫襯 is free from any imaginable censure in a statement like 我實會幫襯你 (in the context of giving business to someone, not offering help or assistance). If you think about it, didn't it evolve from the same origin (多謝幫襯, 請下次再嚟幫襯)?

Going a bit off topic here. Even though most people don't draw a distinction these days, there is a fundamental difference between "Can I" and "May I". Well, they simply mean different things. In situations where it matters, linguists advocate "May I" not because it's more polite, but because it's correct.

Can I = Am I able to... ?
May I = Am I allowed to... ?


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## Skatinginbc

L3P said:


> I heard a guy say 我再也不去光顾那家商店了, meaning 'I`ll never visit the shop again', and I thought it`d be rather pompous for him to mean 'I won`t honor the shop with a visit again'. So,could anyone help me interpret the phrase  光顾,please?


光顾 is conventionally said by one who is welcoming a person's visit or patronage.  Any usage other than that is "unconventional", which does not necessarily equate "incorrect", "ungrammatical", or "inappropriate".  For example, "黃大人竟會光顧你的店, 不知你祖宗燒的是什麼香" is unconventional as it goes against the pragmatic convention: The speaker should be one welcoming a person's visit or patronage.  Yet that sentence does not betray anything semantically: "do one the honor of attending", the literal meaning of 光顧.  Despite being pragmatically unorthodox, it is totally acceptable in that context in my opinion.  It is not a linguistic crime for being innovative. 

By the same token, 我再也不去光顾那家店了 is unconventional because 我 is not the party that is welcoming someone's presence.  Then again, that sentence is totally appropriate in my mind as it is presumably spoken by someone who is displeased with the service of a store and has decided that he will never visit it again.  Speaking in anger, he implies that his patronage is doing honor to the store and they should be grateful--That reaction is "expected" or "understandable" (rather than "pompous") as the mistreated need extra esteem to compensate their hurt feelings.  Compare: 我再也不去那家店了 (ordinary) vs. 我再也不去光顾那家店了 (with an extra attitude).  Nothing wrong with an extra attitude in that context.  That's the beauty of language, the ability to express subtle nuances.


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## simonchg

I agree that it has an 'undetermined innuendo' (#38) and that's what I meant to say with the second example. That was also where the sense of 'incompleteness' comes from as it drew my attention with the ambiguous attitude and I would probably say "Ok, what happened then?" if the speaker didn't proceed. With contexts, '我经常光顾那间酒吧' totally makes sense to me as I said.

I believe L3P was asking for an interpretation of a correct usage ("...then I heard a guy say..., meaning..., and I thought it'd ...", #1) , rather than a judgement of whether or not it is correct. That's why I tried to explain how the sense of superiority given to the sentence makes it sounds ironic ('...to use his sense of humor...', #37). And two examples were given, of which first clauses were weaker than '我再也不去光顾那家商店了' (#1), to elaborate my point that context is important for irony. Getting used to the usage as a native speaker would does not mean the rhetorical convention never exists, as discussed in #17 by Skatinginbc.

That "黃大人*竟*會光顧你的店, *不知你祖宗燒的是什麼香*" and that "我*再也不*去光顾那家店了" both have strong attitudes in the context therefore wouldn't be taken the wrong way.

In a nutshell,
1) '光顾‘ is an honorific (敬辞).
2) The use of '光顾’ in '我再也不去光顾那家商店了' is ironic.
3) Nothing wrong with irony, as long as it is with context.
4) It sounds natural, idiomatic and cute.

Hope I've made my point clear.


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## Skatinginbc

有一種情境, 我會說"光顧", 但不是出於 "sense of superiority or self-importance":
A: 您佬真的被人扣下, 洗了兩小時碗?
B: 是啊, 只因我忘了錢包.
A: 是哪家店敢如此猖狂?
B: 就是那老字號麵館, 我光顧了十幾年. ==> 我之所以會說"光顧", 是因聽那麵館的"謝謝光顧"十幾年, 與如今的"被扣洗碗"形成強烈的諷刺對比.


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## Skatinginbc

Re: 敬辭 
"Conventionally" (as defined in #40) speaking, 光顧 is a 敬辭.  Its non-conventional usage wherein the speaker (or the grammatical subject) is not the party welcoming the guest is however not a 敬辭 in my mind.  It is like 不客氣, which is conventionally used as a 客套話 (叫客人別拘謹), is certainly not a 客套話 in "他一進大廳, 便大剌剌地往太師椅坐, 毫不客氣".  In other words, I don't see 光顧 as a 敬辭 in "我再也不去光顧那家商店了", "我经常光顧那间酒吧", and "那家老字號麵館, 我光顧了十幾年".  And I share Brofeelgood's frustration that 光顧 "magically turns it into a 敬词", "simply because the term contains 光".  No!  It is not a 敬辭 in the contexts we are discussing.  

I cannot think of a better word than 光顧 that can fit in the context described in #42 (那家老字號麵館, 我光顧了十幾年).  我去了十幾年?  消費了十幾年?  捧場了十幾年?  關照了十幾年?...No, none of them can 突顯諷刺性的對比 (i.e., what Simon called 'irony' #41) as well as 光顧 can.


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## Mamanunique

Skatinginbc said:


> Re: 敬辭


其实你自己的话都自相矛盾，前面说它不是敬词了，后面又说只有它能凸显讽刺性的对比。它不是敬词了又怎么能有那么强烈的对比呢？比如你列出的例子。
那个不客气，完全是两回事，前面的不客气可以说成不用客气，不要客气，别客气，后面的可以吗？


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## Skatinginbc

Mamanunique said:


> 完全是两回事


對, 我想說的, 就是他們根本是两回事.  "貴公司" in "能蒙貴公司邀請, 實感萬分榮幸" is 敬辭 (defined as 語氣恭敬, 向對方表示尊重的詞語), but it turns into a sarcastic remark in "我可不想買他們的貴公司"--no longer "向對方表示尊重".  
是不是"敬辭", 須依其 "語用" (pragmatics) 來判斷. "光顧" in "就是那老字號麵館, 我光顧了十幾年" is not meant to "向對方表示尊重".


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## Mamanunique

我觉得“贵公司”在后面仍然是表示尊重，只不过这个时候是反话(with sarcasm）。同样，下面的也是。（我被他们”尊重了“几十年）


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## Skatinginbc

In fact, when I wrote "我可不想買他們的貴公司", I had in mind the literal meaning "expensive" (貴得離譜的公司) plus "self-important" (自認尊貴的公司) derived from its conventional "敬辭" usage.  The 貴 in "我可不想買他們的貴公司" does not mean exactly the same as the one in "能蒙貴公司邀請, 實感萬分榮幸".


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## Mamanunique

哦， 我没认真看，看错那句，我以为你说"我可不想买贵公司的东西。"
“我可不想買他們的貴公司”   那“贵公司”就不是敬词了，因为你说话的对象都不是那家公司的人。
如果你跟那公司的人说：“我可不想买“贵公司”。”来表达你嫌那家公司贵，又鄙视那家公司。那我认为“贵公司”还是敬词，只不过带有一语双关和反语。（a sarcastic and double-edged remark)


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## Skatinginbc

Mamanunique said:


> “我可不想买“贵公司””。来表达你嫌那家公司贵，又鄙视那家公司。那我认为“贵公司”还是敬词


Agree.  As you see, to whom the utterance is addressed makes a difference.  None of the sentences of 光顾 in discussion is directly addressed to the shop keepers.  Their pragmatic functions have nothing to do with showing respect.

Re: 用詞不當
1. 敬辭使用不當: ("光顧"當"敬辭"用) 校長: 「黃教授將於1月15日來本校演講, 屆時歡迎同學們光顧*.」
2. 敬辭泛化不當: ("光顧"當"非敬辭"用) 學生: 「那家餐廳食物和服務都很好, 所以我們經常去光顧*.」 (Here, 光顧 fails to add any value like 俏皮、戲謔、諷刺等意味 and can be omitted without changing the nuance.  Nor is it a good fit if interpreted with its literal meaning 賞光照顧, which does not go well with the status of a 學生.)


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## C.Du

光: bring light to a place. 带去光明，蓬荜生辉的概念。
顾: taking care of someone. 照顾。

光顾 can be said by the shop or restaurant to show their respect to you. But when you mention this, you may only keep the 顾 like this:“去照顾生意”. 

Using 光 on yourself will look strange, unless you are a god or Buddha. It's not a question about honorifics 敬或不敬. It's a question about self recognition, god or human. Only god or Buddha has the ability to bring light to a place (it's just an example, I'm not talking about religious belief.). 

btw 照 also means bring light to, but 照顾 brings light only to someone, not a place. So 照顾 is different from 光顾, and 光顾 can never be used by someone describing this person's own activities.


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