# uso della preposizione "by"



## sweet_cate

c'è una regola che permetta di capire bene e una volta per tutte come usare la preposizione *"by" ?*

Io ho provato a tradurre con "*da, con,  per mezzo di"* e "*presso".*

Però ho difficoltà a tradurre correttamente in inglese quello che proviene dalle persone e non solo quello che proviene con un mezzo materiale e visibile.

Per esempio, quale potrebbe essere la formula corretta per dire:

"mi piacciono/non mi piacciono alcuni atteggiamenti che provengono/vengono *da te*?"

E' un brutto esempio, scusate, ma al momento non mi viene in mente nient' altro.


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## Idioteque

sweet_cate said:
			
		

> c'è una regola che permetta di capire bene e una volta per tutte come usare la preposizione *"by" ?*
> 
> Io ho provato a tradurre con "*da, con,  per mezzo di"* e "*presso".*
> 
> Però ho difficoltà a tradurre correttamente in inglese quello che proviene dalle persone e non solo quello che proviene con un mezzo materiale e visibile.
> 
> Per esempio, quale potrebbe essere la formula corretta per dire:
> 
> "mi piacciono/non mi piacciono alcuni atteggiamenti che provengono/vengono *da te*?"
> 
> E' un brutto esempio, scusate, ma al momento non mi viene in mente nient' altro.



Ciao Sweet Cate, anche io ho le stesse perplessità riguardo all'uso di "by", relativamente al suo significato di "per mezzo di"... comunque, nell'esempio da te fornito, credo che la corretta traduzione sia "from":

"I like/dislike some attitudes coming from you"

Ma, ovviamente, aspetterei suggerimenti più affidabili... 

Laura


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## sweet_cate

Idioteque said:
			
		

> Ciao Sweet Cate, anche io ho le stesse perplessità riguardo all'uso di "by", relativamente al suo significato di "per mezzo di"... comunque, nell'esempio da te fornito, credo che la corretta traduzione sia "from":
> 
> "I like/dislike some attitudes coming from you"
> 
> Ma, ovviamente, aspetterei suggerimenti più affidabili...
> 
> Laura


 
Ciao Laura , temo che la "_questioncina" (slang, do not look for it) _ che ho posto sia un po' complicata, perchè non mi sembra che si siano accalcati in molti per rispondere..  

E forse anche l'esempio che ho fatto non è appropriato...

Ma almeno mi farebbe piacere sapere quando NON lo  devo usare "*by"* nelle frasi dove si parla di mezzi e provenienze di vario tipo.

Non so se i madrelingua capiscano i miei problemi con questa preposizione cmq.

Mi fa piacere invece di verificare che non sono la sola ad avere perplessità sul suo corretto uso, grazie per la solidarietà quindi..  

Ciao per adesso Lauraradioheadfan, e grazie per il suggerimento ...  

Ne terrò conto ovviamente.


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## radiation woman

Sorry for the lack of enthusiasm in replying....I don't know of a rule myself.  I think you may just have to learn on a case by case basis when to use which preposition.  I thought of a couple of common mistakes non-natives make though with this preposition and they may be of help.

Firstly if you have a painting "di Tiziano" in Italian, in English it is a painting "by Tiziano".  If you say "of" it means that Tiziano is the person appearing in the painting.

Secondly I've noticed that non-natives will often say that they arrived at a place "by foot" rather than using the correct expression which is "on foot" (an easy mistake to make since most other methods of transport use "by" e.g. by plane, by car, by bike, by taxi etc.).

Sorry it's not much information, but hopefully it'll help someone.


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## ElaineG

> Io ho provato a tradurre con "*da, con, per mezzo di"* e "*presso".*


 
Hi Cate, sorry for writing in English (I don't write Italian until my 2nd cup of coffee). I don't think there's a rule (but *moody* will now tell me that there is one!), I think you just have to pick it up by ear. 

In general, something coming _from_ a person in a directional sense (even if only in a figurative way) comes "from" them -- "I'm not feeling a lot of love from him today" (da lui), "I got a box of cookies from my mother"  but if you are speaking of something they've created (as *rw *noted) then it's "by" them (even though that would be "da" in Italian also):  a painting by Picasso, a book by Goethe.

Coffeeee.....
 If it is any comfort, know that a/in/da/di are equally miserable when one is learning Italian.


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## sweet_cate

radiation woman said:
			
		

> Sorry for the lack of enthusiasm in replying....I don't know of a rule myself. I think you may just have to learn on a case by case basis when to use which preposition. I thought of a couple of common mistakes non-natives make though with this preposition and they may be of help.
> 
> Firstly if you have a painting "di Tiziano" in Italian, in English it is a painting "by Tiziano". If you say "of" it means that Tiziano is the person appearing in the painting.
> 
> Secondly I've noticed that non-natives will often say that they arrived at a place "by foot" rather than using the correct expression which is "on foot" (an easy mistake to make since most other methods of transport use "by" e.g. by plane, by car, by bike, by taxi etc.).
> 
> Sorry it's not much information, but hopefully it'll help someone.


 

Grazie radiation_woman.

A me hai dato preziose informazioni.

Di sicuro non parlerò più di quadri "of" un pittore.. ma "by" un pittore.

Sei stata molto gentile comunque, anche perchè capisco che sia difficile spiegare qualcosa che si apprende senza una regola precisa di riferimento ma solo per abitudine linguistica imposta con la pratica e con le correzioni familiari o a scuola.  

Anch'io tante volte qui mi sento impotente per non sapere spiegare adeguatamente quando e perchè si devono usare certi termini o certi verbi in italiano.

Grazie davvero quindi per il tuo sforzo.

Adesso ne so cmq. qualcosa di più di prima.


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## sweet_cate

ElaineG said:
			
		

> Hi Cate, sorry for writing in English (I don't write Italian until my 2nd cup of coffee). I don't think there's a rule (but *moody* will now tell me that there is one!), I think you just have to pick it up by ear.
> 
> In general, something coming _from_ a person in a directional sense (even if only in a figurative way) comes "from" them -- "I'm not feeling a lot of love from him today" (da lui), "I got a box of cookies from my mother" but if you are speaking of something they've created (as *rw *noted) then it's "by" them (even though that would be "da" in Italian also): a painting by Picasso, a book by Goethe.
> 
> Coffeeee.....
> If it is any comfort, know that a/in/da/di are equally miserable when one is learning Italian.


 

Thank you very much Elaine,  

Le tue spiegazioni sono state più che efficaci.

E ti confido che capisco meglio l'inglese che scrivete voi madrelingua che l'inglese che scrive moody, che per me è spesso parecchio complicato..

Ma ciò che hai scritto rispetto al distinguere tra ciò che proviene da una persona e ciò che proviene dalla sua creatività, è già un'indicazione di grande aiuto.

[Ti offrirei adesso un caffè italiano se potessi, andando a prenderlo in un bel bar qui vicino dove fanno il caffè con un po' schiuma di latte morbida e cremosa, come un mini-cappuccino ma più carico del sapore di caffè ovviamente..  
Io a volte ci metto anche un pezzettino di cioccolato fondente dentro, così sul fondo della tazzina trovo il cioccolato fuso..  

Vi offrirei volentieri un caffè italiano a te e a rw, ma qui in Italia.. in UK è troppo caro il caffè italiano!! Ciao e grazie ancora  ]







PS ho fatto un po' di chat, scusate, ma spero di avervi fatto venire voglia di venire in Italia più spesso..


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## Idioteque

ElaineG said:
			
		

> Hi Cate, sorry for writing in English (I don't write Italian until my 2nd cup of coffee). I don't think there's a rule (but *moody* will now tell me that there is one!), I think you just have to pick it up by ear.
> 
> In general, something coming _from_ a person in a directional sense (even if only in a figurative way) comes "from" them -- "I'm not feeling a lot of love from him today" (da lui), "I got a box of cookies from my mother"  but if you are speaking of something they've created (as *rw *noted) then it's "by" them (even though that would be "da" in Italian also):  a painting by Picasso, a book by Goethe.
> 
> Coffeeee.....
> If it is any comfort, know that a/in/da/di are equally miserable when one is learning Italian.


 THat's very clear, Elaine! 
So, should I say that "Idioteque" is a song *by* Radioheadinstead of saying that it's a song *of* Radiohead? 



			
				sweet_cate said:
			
		

> Ciao per adesso Lauraradioheadfan, e grazie per il suggerimento ...
> 
> Ne terrò conto ovviamente.



Figurati!  Radiohead fan? Sempre!


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## shamblesuk

Hai proprio 



			
				Idioteque said:
			
		

> THat's very clear, Elaine!
> So, should I say that "Idioteque" is a song *by* Radioheadinstead of saying that it's a song *of* Radiohead?


...ragione! Scusatemi.


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## ElaineG

> So, should I say that "Idioteque" is a song *by* Radioheadinstead of saying that it's a song *of* Radiohead?


 
Sì.  (E ora vado a prendere un caffe con *Sweet cate;*  vieni?).


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## radiation woman

Idioteque said:
			
		

> THat's very clear, Elaine!
> So, should I say that "Idioteque" is a song *by* Radioheadinstead of saying that it's a song *of* Radiohead?


 
Most definitely! Everyone understands "of Radiohead" but it's not what the natives say.

Sweet cate - thanks for the thanks and the offer of Italian coffee. You're probably all going to think I'm crazy for this but I prefer the British version. Italian coffee is just too strong for me.


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## TrentinaNE

Written by, painted by, sung by, discussed by, directed by, composed by, produced by... See the pattern?  

After verb conjugations, prepositions are the most difficult thing for me in translating between Italian and English. While there are some rules and generalities, much simply has to be memorized.  

Saluti,
Elisabetta


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## Idioteque

Grazie a tutti, shamblesuk, Elaine a radiation woman! 

P.S: E' vero, il caffè italiano è troppo forte! Mi offrireste un cappuccino?


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## sweet_cate

radiation woman said:
			
		

> Most definitely! Everyone understands "of Radiohead" but it's not natives say.
> 
> Sweet cate - thanks for the thanks and the offer of Italian coffee. You're probably all going to think I'm crazy for this but I prefer the British version. Italian coffee is just too strong for me.


 
ehm mi è venuto in mente un altro dubbio cara..  

Scusa,  qual è il modo più corretto di scrivere questa frase per esempio?

may I offer to you a british coffee made *by* me?

or

may I offer to you a british coffe made *from* me?

correggetemi senza pietà.


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## radiation woman

sweet_cate said:
			
		

> ehm mi è venuto in mente un altro dubbio cara..
> 
> Scusa, qual è il modo più corretto di scrivere questa frase per esempio?
> 
> may I offer to you a british coffee made *by* me?
> 
> or
> 
> may I offer to you a british coffe made *from* me?
> 
> correggetemi senza pietà.


 
It's made by me.  Made from you would mean that you were one of the ingredients in the coffee so definitely avoid saying that!


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## sweet_cate

TrentinaNE said:
			
		

> Written by, painted by, sung by, discussed by, directed by, composed by, produced by... See the pattern?
> 
> After verb conjugations, prepositions are the most difficult thing for me in translating between Italian and English. While there are some rules and generalities, much simply has to be memorized.
> 
> Saluti,
> Elisabetta


 
Oh dear Elisabetta, grazie molte anche a te. 

ma che mi dici di qualcosa "*fatto da me*" come un semplice caffè?

A british coffee made by me or from me? 

Non è una creazione, è un atto materiale no?

Quindi dovrei usare *from?* E' così?


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## ElaineG

> Non è una creazione, è un atto materiale no?


 
It's still an act of creation (however small), so you use by. "I brought you a coffee from the store; it was made by the Italian barista".


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## sweet_cate

radiation woman said:
			
		

> It's made by me. Made from you would mean that you were one of the ingredients in the coffee so definitely avoid saying that!


 
Grazie.
Ottima spiegazione..  

Molto, molto comprensibile..  


PS No no.. lo compro "già fatto" in quel senso  il caffè,  sta tranquilla..


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## TrentinaNE

sweet_cate said:
			
		

> may I offer to you a british coffee made *by* me?
> 
> correggetemi senza pietà.


Technically correct, but it sounds a little awkward to my AE ears because I can't think of many occasions when it would be necessary to specify that you're making the coffee.  However, you certainly would not say "from me" in this context.  Would you like me to make you some British coffee? or May I offer you some fresh British coffee? would be more common, I think.

Do the British refer to "a coffee"? Here in the U.S., it's simply coffee or some coffee.

Saluti,
Elisabetta


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## sweet_cate

ElaineG said:
			
		

> It's still an act of creation (however small), so you use by. "I brought you a coffee from the store; it was made by the Italian barista".


 
Perfetto. 

Il concetto diventa sempre più comprensibile, grazie ancora.


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## shamblesuk

Yes we do. 

I'll have a coffee please.
Can you get me a coffee, please.

Maybe it's a protracted version of 'a (cup of) coffee/tea', as the (cup of) is implied?




			
				TrentinaNE said:
			
		

> Technically correct, but it sounds a little awkward to my AE ears because I can't think of many occasions when it would be necessary to specify that you're making the coffee. However, you certainly would not say "from me" in this context. Would you like me to make you some British coffee? or May I offer you some fresh British coffee? would be more common, I think.
> 
> *Do the British refer to "a coffee"*? Here in the U.S., it's simply coffee or some coffee.
> 
> Saluti,
> Elisabetta


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## radiation woman

TrentinaNE said:
			
		

> Do the British refer to "a coffee"? Here in the U.S., it's simply coffee or some coffee.
> 
> Saluti,
> Elisabetta


 
Elisabetta, ElaineG referred to "a coffee" in her post and she's American.


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## Plodder

> Do the British refer to "a coffee"? Here in the U.S., it's simply coffee or some coffee.
> 
> Saluti,
> Elisabetta



Yes, in BE we do say "Would you like a coffee?".  I suppose this is a shorter form of "Would you like a cup of coffee?"

Plodder


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## moodywop

Cate

Ho visto solo ora questo thread, quindi posso solo aggiungere qualche altro esempio di casi in cui per un italiano sia difficile scegliere fra "by" and "from". Scrivo in italiano ma davvero il mio inglese è così incomprensibile? 

La "guideline" più utile è quella, già suggerita da altri, che "from" indica provenienza, origine(in italiano in questi casi corrisponde a _da, di - a guy from Rome, he's from Rome)), _mentre "by" indica il mezzo (_by car, by hand, by cheque) _o l'agente nel passivo(_a novel by Jane Austen = a novel written by Jane Austen_).

Purtroppo ci sono poi casi in cui questa "guideline" non è sufficiente:

_Vive da solo = he lives by himself_

_Dai nostri registri risulta che = from our records it appears that..._

Dopo "judge" si usano, stranamente,  sia "by" che "from": _judging from/by his accent = a giudicare dal suo accento_

_By _si usa anche davanti al gerundio per indicare come si fa qualcosa: _he thinks he can make things right just by apologizing_

Questi sono gli unici esempi che mi vengono in mente ma sono sicuro che se ne potrebbero fare tanti altri.


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## TrentinaNE

radiation woman said:
			
		

> Elisabetta, ElaineG referred to "a coffee" in her post and she's American.


Thanks, I hadn't noticed. Perhaps that usage is catching on in the States, too, now that people are accustomed to ordering a capuccino, a latte, etc. at Starbucks, but _a coffee_ still sounds odd to my middle-aged ear.  

Do Brits also drink _a tea_?  

Elisabetta


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## ElaineG

> ElaineG referred to "a coffee" in her post and she's American.


 
Sorry, that was likely cross-cultural contamination at work. Most mornings, my very first cup of coffee is made by a Brit, and while I try not to adopt too many of his speech patterns, I think I have caught "fancy a coffee?" from him.


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## Idioteque

moodywop said:
			
		

> _By _si usa anche davanti al gerundio per indicare come si fa qualcosa: _he thinks he can make things right just by apologizing_



Io ho sempre dubbi a riguardo... ho l'impressione che a volte tendo ad abusarne... qualcuno potrebbe fornire altri esempi a riguardo? 

Grazie!


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## TrentinaNE

_You can get there by turning left at the corner._
_You can get that stain out by soaking it first._
_You can overcome adversity by trying harder._

Va bene?

Elisabetta


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## TJ Taylor

Let's try and keep it as simple as possible, strangely for English there is actually a basic pattern with a couple of grammar rules thrown in for the use of by:
1. The passive
2. The passive used implicitly or as a clause
3. Phrasal verbs
4. Processes and methods
5. Simple preposition

There have been various examples of some of these above, but here's a brief list, and I'm sure others can add more:
1. 'It was painted BY Picasso' - the same goes for written by, created by, sung by...it's just the passive when you want to add the original subject from the active voice
2. 'I read the letter written by John' or 'A painting by Picasso' or 'make things right by apologising'
3. Hah! I'm not going to list them all here...pop by, come by, etc...
4. 'learning by doing' 'pay by credit card' 'travel by bus'
5. 'Let me know by Friday' 'by the way' 'south by south-west'

And of course there are always exceptions.
Hope it helps


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## Taniaa

reading this sentence, i was thinking that i should have written that without 'by'.... does it make sense in english? ...mmm 

"we built up an English grammar by picking up sentences from articles published on the Web in 2000"

ps. please, correct my english if necessary.


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## DesertCat

Taniaa said:
			
		

> "we built up an our English grammar by picking up sentences from articles published on the Web in 2000".



.... assuming you're speaking of the past, which the 2000 implies.


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## Idioteque

Thanks a lot TJ Taylor, great post! I just needed this clarification!!! 



			
				TJ Taylor said:
			
		

> Let's try and keep it as simple as possible, strangely for English there is actually a basic pattern with a couple of grammar rules thrown in for the use of by:
> 1. The passive
> 2. The passive used implicitly or as a clause
> 3. Phrasal verbs
> 4. Processes and methods
> 5. Simple preposition
> 
> There have been various examples of some of these above, but here's a brief list, and I'm sure others can add more:
> 1. 'It was painted BY Picasso' - the same goes for written by, created by, sung by...it's just the passive when you want to add the original subject from the active voice
> 2. 'I read the letter written by John' or 'A painting by Picasso' or 'make things right by apologising'
> 3. Hah! I'm not going to list them all here...pop by, come by, etc...
> 4. 'learning by doing' 'pay by credit card' 'travel by bus'
> 5. 'Let me know by Friday' 'by the way' 'south by south-west'
> 
> And of course there are always exceptions.
> Hope it helps


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## moodywop

TJ Taylor said:
			
		

> 1. 'It was painted BY Picasso' - the same goes for written by, created by, sung by...it's just the passive when you want to add the original subject from the active voice
> 2. 'I read the letter written by John' or 'A painting by Picasso' or 'make things right by apologising'
> 3. Hah! I'm not going to list them all here...pop by, come by, etc...
> 4. 'learning by doing' 'pay by credit card' 'travel by bus'
> 5. 'Let me know by Friday' 'by the way' 'south by south-west'


 
Thank you for providing a clear, concise list of the main uses of "by". 

Shouldn't the "by apologizing" example be listed with the ones in 4.?

Per Tania e Laura, che hanno dubbi sull'uso di "by" col gerundio, forse un altro modo ancora per rendere più facile la scelta è chiedersi se si può formulare una domanda con "how":

_How can I remove this stain from my shirt? By soaking it first_

Carlo


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## Idioteque

Grazie ancora, Carlo!  Ed io continuo a prender nota! 



			
				moodywop said:
			
		

> Per Tania e Laura, che hanno dubbi sull'uso di "by" col gerundio, forse un altro modo ancora per rendere più facile la scelta è chiedersi se si può formulare una domanda con "how":
> 
> _How can I remove this stain from my shirt? By soaking it first_
> 
> Carlo


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## Taniaa

quindi riferendomi a questa frase:
 "we built up our English grammar by picking up sentences from articles published on the Web in 2000"

how did you bilduo your English gramma? by picking u sentences....

Io confesso avrei risposto solamente Picking up.....senza BY.


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## TJ Taylor

Moody,
Thanks for pointing out the example with 'making things right by apologising' - it should indeed be in category 4 as I think I've confused the verb make with the causative make...

Your example with a 'how' question is only relevant for category 4 though, and doesn't work with 1, 2, 3 or 5. Methods and processes has a bigger meaning than just 'how', which also doesn't always work e.g. How can I remove this stain? with a stain remover.

The use of by with a gerund is nothing special - there is no general rule as the gerund is only another type of noun formed from a verb e.g. How would you like to pay? by cheque / in cash / by washing dishes.

BTW Tania - be careful with 'picking up'. If you add a preposition or adverb onto a verb in English it very often changes the meaning, sometimes completely. You should have used 'pick' in the meaning of 'choose' with no 'up' - pick up means 'from the floor' for an object or 'from the airport or railway station' for a person.

Take care,


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## Taniaa

taylor, grazie mille 
just 'pick', but in my reply, can I say it without 'by' or not?

how did you bilduo your English gramma? by picking (choosing) sentences.... / picking (choosing) sentences


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## TJ Taylor

Taniaa,
By is not actually obligatory, but I'd like to correct your original sentence first - do you mean 'we created our grammar book/list' or 'we built up our grammar knowledge' - I wouldn't use 'grammar' as a noun referring to a book/list/etc unless you went to public school (a false friend) in the 1930s.

The sentence can be either 'we......grammar... by selecting/picking/choosing sentences...'
or 'we......grammar... selecting/picking/choosing sentences...'
There is no difference, but the first is easier to understand if your audience is non-mothertongue as it flows better, although both are grammatically correct.
Take care


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## sweet_cate

TJ Taylor said:
			
		

> Moody,
> Thanks for pointing out the example with 'making things right by apologising' - it should indeed be in category 4 as I think I've confused the verb make with the causative make...
> 
> Your example with a 'how' question is only relevant for category 4 though, and doesn't work with 1, 2, 3 or 5. Methods and processes has a bigger meaning than just 'how', which also doesn't always work e.g. How can I remove this stain? with a stain remover.
> 
> The use of by with a gerund is nothing special - there is no general rule as the gerund is only another type of noun formed from a verb e.g. How would you like to pay? by cheque / in cash / by washing dishes.
> 
> BTW Tania - be careful with 'picking up'. If you add a preposition or adverb onto a verb in English it very often changes the meaning, sometimes completely. You should have used 'pick' in the meaning of 'choose' with no 'up' - pick up means 'from the floor' for an object or 'from the airport or railway station' for a person.
> 
> Take care,


 

Purtroppo le cose come le spieghi tu.. a me non sono molto chiare.

Mi perdo un po' in tutte le vostre (anche moody fa così..) definizioni strettamente grammaticali dei passaggi di cui tenere conto e a cui fare riferimento per l'uso del "by".

Passivo, causativo.. mi fanno pensare che dovrei rinfrescare la grammatica italiana per usare e capire il vostro stesso linguaggio.

 Pensate che mi aiuterebbe?


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## sweet_cate

Scusate...


Sbaglierei molto a pensare di usare la preposizione "by"  usandola nei termini di *"per mezzo di"* che è un po' diverso dal semplice "come" che mi pare consigliasse moody.

Cioè, io ottenho qualcosa, o chiunque ottiene qualcosa 

"*per mezzo di, o attraverso un'azione di... " *

Mentre il *"from"*  si usa solo per ciò che PROVIENE direttamente da qualcosa, che si basa quindi su qualcosa che si è mosso materialmente e che si è posizionato stabilmente in un luogo da cui può indicare materialmente la provenienza.

Questo mi ha fatto pensare l'esempio di R. WOMAN, a proposito del fatto che un "*caffè fatto da me"  *tradotto con "a coffe made FROM me" possa interpretarsi come qualcosa che è stato materialmente fatto, costruito, materializzato con qualcosa che è derivato direttamente dalla mia persona, tanto personalmente che potrebbe essere anche il mio corpo con cui io "ho fatto" il caffè "fatto da me".

mentre invece il "*caffè è fatto per mezzo di me"* non con cose che provengono da me.

A me sembra di poterla capire così, a orecchio, questa regolina...

Di fatto stamattina (facendomi il caffè..)

Mi sono venute in mente anche queste 2 frasi:

"Non farti condizionare *da me* .. o *da lui*.. o *da chiunque*.."

"Questa situazione è stata sufficientemente motivata *da lui*".

In questo caso uso il *"by"* ugualmente visto che mi sembrano forme al passivo?


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## Taniaa

in questo caso:

take your hands off (from me) 

è corretto? o dovrei usare by o altro..


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## TrentinaNE

Si dice Take your hands off of me.   Non sono sicura perché...   

Elisabetta


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## Taniaa

grazie... volevi forse scrivere 'non sono sicura però' ? o hai scritto perché, intendendo che non ne conosci il motivo?!


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## TrentinaNE

Taniaa said:
			
		

> grazie... volevi forse scrivere 'non sono sicura però' ? o hai scritto perché, intendendo che non ne conosci il motivo?!


 
Il secondo!  Ma penso che si usi sempre (o spesso) of con off, per esempio The book fell off of the table.


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## Manuel_M

TrentinaNE said:
			
		

> Il secondo! Ma penso che si usi sempre (o spesso) of con off, per esempio The book fell off of the table.


 
As far as I'm aware in BE it would be t_he book fell off the table_ and _take your hands off me._


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## TJ Taylor

I'm not sure where the last 5 posts came from considering we're talking about by...but Manuel, you are correct.
Take your hands off of me is Amercian English, take your hands off me is British English, and to me sounds much better than the ugly 'off of'.

Sweet cate - sorry if I lost you in the grammar, but I used them only to make the differences and explanation clearer...I thought..
Best just concentrate on the 5 categories with the examples and leave it at that.
Quick note on the 2 examples - although my Italian is not great..the first one would be 'don't let yourself be influenced BY me' and 'this situation was explained sufficiently BY him'...so yes I think you've understood this use of 'by'.
Take care


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## Taniaa

quindi manuel, non vale la regola di OF con OFF... o generalmente vale?
sarebbe molto comoda da ricordare


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## DesertCat

TJ Taylor said:
			
		

> Take your hands off of me is Amercian English, take your hands off me is British English, and to me sounds much better than the ugly 'off of'.



Actually, it's said either way in AE.  In fact, from my perspective you only use "off of" for emphasis.

And, back to the sentence "we built up an our English grammar by picking up sentences from articles published on the Web in 2000" I will admit it sounded a bit odd to me but I didn't think it was grammatically incorrect other than the one correction I made.  

Replacing "picking up sentences" with "picking out sentences" makes it sound a little better.


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## Marcone

Manuel_M said:
			
		

> As far as I'm aware in BE it would be t_he book fell off the table_ and _take your hands off me._


 
_Off of_ is an alternative for _from_. The proper form would be _the book fell from the table_ and _take your hands from me._


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## ElaineG

Are you saying, *marcone*, that "take your hands off me" isn't correct?  I'm not sure I follow that.


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## You little ripper!

ElaineG said:
			
		

> Are you saying, *marcone*, that "take your hands off me" isn't correct? I'm not sure I follow that.


I think they're both correct, but if someone said "Take your hands *from* me" I'd look at them very strangely.


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## ElaineG

Isn't that because you are more used to saying "Put your hands _on_ me", Charles?  

I agree, though, "Take your hands from me" sounds like a distressed Victorian maiden to me.


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## You little ripper!

ElaineG said:
			
		

> Isn't that because you are more used to saying "Put your hands _on_ me", Charles?
> Probably Elaine, probably.
> 
> I agree, though, "Take your hands from me" sounds like a distressed Victorian maiden to me.
> Yes, the sort of thing a governess in one of Victoria Holt's novels would say, or perhaps the main character in one of Georgette Heyer's. (Not that I've read any of these authors, I might add. I've been told this by people who read this sort of novel.  )


Marcone, do they actually say that in your part of the world?


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## Marcone

ElaineG said:
			
		

> Are you saying, *marcone*, that "take your hands off me" isn't correct? I'm not sure I follow that.


Ciao Elaine,
Of course I'm not saying that it is incorrect.  What I mean is that _off of _is a commonly used synonym for _from_.  I meant it as a way of clarifying what _off of_ actually means.  Way back when I was studying composition and grammar, _from_ was considered proper.  Few people, if any actually say that anymore.  You will see it mainly in older writing.  English is constantly in flux and being reshaped by each generation.  There are many words and phrases, as I'm sure Carrick can attest, that have fallen from use or changed completely in my lifetime.
Sorry for the confusion.

Marco


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## greenfield

Ciao a tutti. Ma quindi from non si usa mai quando si parla di un'azione che "Proviene" o meglio "fatta " da qualcuno. From s i usa solo se si parla di provenienza di qualcosa in senso di "Moto"; non di creazione. giusto? 
e se dicessi "Richiesto dalla legge"? 
Io metterei  *Requested by law*
oppure i 
"costi sono pagati integralmente dal cliente"
*the costs are integrally paid by the customer*
grazie in anti.
paolo


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## Murphy

Both of your sentences are examples of passive constructions, so in both "da" is translated with "by", as it introduces the agent of the passive verb.

"From" traduce "da" quando si parla della provenienza fisica/geografica di una cosa, cioè da dove arriva o da cosa deriva, non da chi è fatta.

Eg. The train (coming) from London was late this morning.
This is Marco. He's from Italy.
Best wishes for your birthday, from me to you. (Su un biglietto di auguri).

Nell'ultimo esempio, l'idea è che gli auguri partono da me per arrivare a te e per questo si usa "from" e non "by". Nello stesso modo, si può concludere una lettera/un messaggio scrivendo "love from John" etc.


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## Odysseus54

TJ Taylor said:


> I'm not sure where the last 5 posts came from considering we're talking about by...but Manuel, you are correct.
> Take your hands off of me is Amercian English, take your hands off me is British English, and to me sounds much better than the ugly 'off of'.



For what it's worth, here in Miami I never hear "off of", but only "off".


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