# Pronoun - possessive / possessive reflexive



## ger4

Hello,

In English, a sentence like 'He is repairing his car' can be ambiguous. Is he repairing...
(1) ... his own car, or...
(2) ... somebody else's car?

Some languages make a distinction here. Danish:
(1) Han reparerer sin bil
(2) Han reparerer hans bil

Polish:
(1) ... swój samochód / swoje auto
(2) ... jego samochód / jego auto

Latvian:
(1) ... savu mašīnu
(2) ... viņa mašīnu

How about your language (or any other language you speak)? All answers (and corrections) appreciated


----------



## Outsider

Portuguese is halfway between the two situations. Classically, the reflexive and the possessive pronouns are identical: *seu/sua* (his/her/his own/her own). But in practice the ambiguity is often resolved by using a prepositional clause instead of the pronoun for the possessive:
*dele/dela* = his/her (literally "of him", "of her")
And (if we wish to make it perfectly clear), by adding an adjective to the reflexive:
*seu próprio/sua própria* = his own/her own


----------



## 810senior

We would leave out such possessives so the ambiguity is much intenser compared to English as far as we don't put them in emphasis.

e.g.
彼は車を修理している。 (He is repairing car) popular

When do you want to make clearer who the owner of the car is, you can also say like this:
彼は*自分の*車を修理している。 _he is repairing his own car.
_彼は*誰かの*車を修理している。 _he is repairing someone's car.
_彼は*あの人の*車を修理している。 _he is repairing that man(woman)'s car._


----------



## bibax

Holger2014 said:


> ...
> Some languages make a distinction here.
> 
> Polish:
> (1) ... swój samochód / swoje auto
> (2) ... jego samochód / jego auto


IMO all Slavic languages and Latin make the same distinction like Polish.

Czech:

(1) ... svůj vůz (automobil)
(2) ... jeho vůz (automobil)

Latin (why did you choose the noun _'car'_? ):

(1) ... suum autocinetum / suam autoraedam
(2) ... eius autocinetum / autoraedam

However in Mediaeval Latin the reflexive suus often replaces the non-reflexive eius:

Gero et suus filius Sigifridus ...........instead of correct: Gero et eius filius Sigifridus


----------



## ger4

Thank you, outsider and 810senior, for your explanations and examples. 


Outsider said:


> [...] And (if we wish to make it perfectly clear), by adding an adjective to the reflexive:
> *seu próprio/sua própria* = his own/her own


This option is often used in German as well in order to avoid misunderstandings: '_Er repariert_ _sein eigenes Auto_'.  


810senior said:


> We would leave out such possessives so the ambiguity is much intenser compared to English as far as we don't put them in emphasis.
> 
> e.g.
> 彼は車を修理している。 (He is repairing car) popular [...]


This reminds me of Polish: Possessive pronouns are sometimes left out (unless they are emphasized). In German we often use the definite article instead of a possessive pronoun, even when we speak English... ("He is washing the hands")


----------



## ger4

bibax said:


> IMO all Slavic languages and Latin make the same distinction like Polish.
> 
> Czech:
> 
> (1) ... svůj vůz (automobil)
> (2) ... jeho vůz (automobil)
> 
> Latin (why did you choose the noun _'car'_? ):
> 
> (1) ... suum autocinetum / suam autoraedam
> (2) ... eius autocinetum / autoraedam
> 
> However in Mediaeval Latin the reflexive suus often replaces the non-reflexive eius:
> 
> Gero et suus filius Sigifridus ...........instead of correct: Gero et eius filius Sigifridus


Thank you bibax, finally I've learned what the old Romans called their cars   It's interesting to see how the use of the non-reflexive pronoun has given way to the reflexive version in Mediaeval Latin already...


----------



## apmoy70

Outsider said:


> Portuguese is halfway between the two situations. Classically, the reflexive and the possessive pronouns are identical: *seu/sua* (his/her/his own/her own). But in practice the ambiguity is often resolved by using a prepositional clause instead of the pronoun for the possessive:
> *dele/dela* = his/her (literally "of him", "of her")
> And (if we wish to make it perfectly clear), by adding an adjective to the reflexive:
> *seu próprio/sua própria* = his own/her own


Likewise in Modern Greek. 
We distinguish between the two by using the possessive pronoun *«δικός, -ή, -ό»* [ðiˈkos] (masc.), [ðiˈci] (fem.), [ðiˈko] (neut.) --> _own_, aphetic form of Byz. adj. *«ἰδικός, -κὴ, -κόν» idikós* (masc.), *idikḕ* (fem.), *idikón* (neut.) < Cl.Gr. adj. *«ἴδιος, -ίᾱ, -ιον» ídiŏs* (masc.), *ĭdíā* (fem.), *ídion* (neut.) --> _own, private, one's own_ (PIE *seu-, _reflexive pronoun_). Thus, your example in Greek is:
*«Αυτός επισκευάζει το αυτοκίνητό του»* [afˈtos episceˈvazi to aftoˈciniˌto tu] --> _he is repairing his car_ (ambiguous); the masc. strong possessive pronoun *« του»* [tu] is enclitic. 
Αlternative and more clear: *«Αυτός επισκευάζει το δικό του αυτοκίνητο»* [afˈtos episceˈvazi to ðiˈko tu aftoˈcinito] --> _he is repairing his own car_.


----------



## Rallino

Turkish, an extremely context-dependant language, can actually be the king of ambiguities in this case.
*
O, arabasını tamir ediyor.* is what we would say in daily life if the context is clear, and it can mean: _S/he is reparing his/her (someone else's) car._ or _S/he_ _is reparing his/her (own) car.

_If we need to specify that it was his/her own car, we can add *kendi* (own):
*O kendi arabasını tamir ediyor.* = _S/he is repairing his/her own car._

So far, it's like French, Portuguese or Greek. 

But the word _araba_ (car) ends in a vowel, so there was no problem. If we take a word that ends in a consonant, the ambiguity will increase. For example, let's work on the word *bisiklet* (bicycle).

*O, bisikletini tamir ediyor*. This sentence has now 3 possible meanings:
1. S/he is repairing his/her bicycle.
2. S/he is repairing his/her own bicycle.
3. S/he is repairing *your* bicycle.

This is because the combination of different suffixes overlap in this case. Namely:_ 
bisiklet_ (bicycle) → _bisikleti _(his/her bicycle) → _bisikleti_ _+ i  _(accusative case)  → _bisikleti*n*i (buffer consonant "n" for an easier pronunciation)
_vs.
_bisiklet _(bicycle) → _bisikletin _(your bicycle) → _bisikletini _(accusative case)

So the words look the same even though the suffixation procedure is different. 

Again, we can use *kendi* (own) for the 2nd sentence, and *senin* (your) for the 3rd sentence to remove the ambiguities.


----------



## 涼宮

Exactly the same thing that happens in Portuguese happens in Spanish (so surprising ).

Está reparando su carro (ambiguous, we don't know whose car it is, her, his (somebody's), his own?), though using the possessive is actually a bit strange, a plain article would be used: está reparando el carro. Funnily enough, most would understand it as his own car, it reminds me of how English uses possessives with body parts but Spanish always uses the article. 

Instead, you could say: está reparando su propio carro, but people don't say that, sounds weird, está reparando el carro de él (of him), it's still ambiguous. Using 'propio' (own) would solve it but it sounds so unnatural, because usually context tells you whose car it is so you don't need something so cumbersome like ''propio''. To me it sounds unnatural with 'car', though propio is used with other things when emphasis rather than clarification is required.


----------



## bibax

Interestingly, the Spanish su developed from the Latin suus/sua/suum which is strictly reflexive in Classical Latin (but not so strictly in Mediaeval Latin).

The reflexive suus is fully declinable, there is an agreement in gender, number and case with the following (or preceding) nouns:

cum suo filio / filio suo = con su hijo;
cum filiis suis = con sus hijos/hijas;
... strictly reflexive in Latin, ambiguous in Spanish and Mediaeval Latin;

On the other side the non-reflexive eius (= his/her/its), eorum/earum (= their) is not declinable as it is in fact the genitive form of the pronoun is/ea/id (= he/she/it).

raeda (raedam, raedae, raedas) eius = el carro (los carros) de él/ella;
raeda (raedam, raedae, raedas) eorum/earum = el carro (los carros) de ellos/ellas;

NB Note that in the first case (reflexive suus) the subject of the sentence can be of any gender/number. In the second case (non reflexive eius/eorum/earum) you must choose the appropriate form according to the gender/number of the owner (owners).

The same for the Slavic languages. For us, Slavic speakers, the distinction suus/eius is quite natural.


----------



## Encolpius

Holger2014 said:


> How about your language (or any other language you speak)? All answers (and corrections) appreciated



-- and how about your language? Isn't it *German *any more???? 



bibax said:


> ... Latin (why did you choose the noun _'car'_? ):



You are lucky, Holger did not choose iPod or smartphone... 

Since there are no reflexive pronouns in *Hungarian *the situation might be the same as in English

Az autóját javítja. [a - definite article; javítja - is repairing; autó - car; autója his/her car]

Of course if you say - a saját autóját javítja [saját - his/her own] you can distinguish the two details


----------



## ger4

Encolpius said:


> -- and how about your language? Isn't it *German *any more????


The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence... Anyway, the situation in *German* is similar to the one in English:
(1) He is repairing his (own) car | (a) _Er repariert sein _(his)_ Auto |_ (b) _Er repariert sein eigenes _(his own)_ Auto | _
(2) He is repairing his (= someone else's) car | (c) _Er repariert sein Auto |_ (d) _Er repariert dessen _("that one's")_ Auto |_

So, if in doubt, we can avoid misunderstandings using the versions (b) and (d). Then again, (b) strongly (perhaps too strongly) emphasizes the fact that (in this example) it is *his own* car he is repairing (otherwise this altruistic person only repairs *other people's* cars) and (d) is hardly ever used.

------


> Bibax >>
> (1) ... suum autocinetum / suam autoraedam
> (2) ... eius autocinetum / autoraedam


According to this website, *Romanian* seems to make similar distinctions as Latin and the Slavic languages mentioned in the previous posts - at least in the singular:


> In general, the forms său, sa, săi, sale are rarely used and are replaced by the genitive forms of the personal pronoun lui and ei [...] The forms său, sa, săi, sale are preferred when the possessed object belongs to the subject of the sentence :
> El vorbeşte cu prietenul său. He speaks with his friend (his own friend).
> El vorbeşte cu prietenul lui. He speaks with his friend (his own or someone other's friend).


 Is Romanian perhaps more conservative than other Romance languages? It would be interesting to find out more.


----------



## 810senior

I would like to add information of other language. 
In French, the gender of the owner is not considered as well as there is no distinction between the possessive and the reflexive possessive. the said sentence he is repairing his/her car is written same way.

*Il répare sa voiture.* (_sa _is 3rd person possessive adjective feminine single, it transformed itself into feminine form since the gender of a modifying word is feminine)

That sentence has such possibility.
(1)He is repairing his car. (the owner and the man repairing the car is different person)
(2)He is repairing her car.
(3)He is repairing his own car. (he has his own car and he is repairing that, not someone else's car)


----------



## ger4

Thanks 810senior - I remember always getting this wrong at school  Somehow it seems 'counter-intuitive' for German speakers not to take the gender of the owner into consideration... 

English -- French -- Danish -- German:  
He is repairing his (own) car -- Il répare sa voiture -- Han reparerer sin bil -- Er repariert sein Auto 
She is repairing her (own) car -- Elle répare sa voiture -- Hun reparerer sin bil --  Sie repariert ihr Auto
He is repairing his (someone else's) car -- Il répare sa voiture -- Han reparerer hans bil -- Er repariert sein Auto
He is repairing her car -- Il répare sa voiture -- Han reparerer hennes bil -- Er repariert ihr Auto
She is repairing his car -- Elle répare sa voiture -- Hun reparerer hans bil -- Sie repariert sein Auto
She is repairing her (someone else's) car -- Elle répare sa voiture -- Hun reparerer hennes bil -- Sie repariert ihr Auto

(I'll have to check this again...)


----------



## Outsider

810senior said:


> We would leave out such possessives so the ambiguity is much intenser compared to English as far as we don't put them in emphasis.
> 
> e.g.
> 彼は車を修理している。 (He is repairing car) popular


That reminded me of another way to say "his/her own" in Portuguese, probably the most common: by leaving out the possessive pronoun, and letting possession be implicit.

He's having his (own) car repaired  = *Ele está a arranjar o carro*, literally "He's repairing the car".



涼宮 said:


> [...] though using the  possessive is actually a bit strange, a plain article would be used:  está reparando el carro. Funnily enough, most would understand it as his  own car, it reminds me of how English uses possessives with body parts  but Spanish always uses the article.


Yes, like that.


----------



## 810senior

I suppose how differently the possessive pronouns including reflexive ones and articles work in languages would make a good topic as far as the topic isn't already posted, what's more, as for the speakers who have the language that the conception of articles lacks, that fact makes me much more curious at least for me.


----------



## 涼宮

Holger2014 said:


> ------
> According to this website, *Romanian* seems to make similar distinctions as Latin and the Slavic languages mentioned in the previous posts - at least in the singular:
> Is Romanian perhaps more conservative than other Romance languages? It would be interesting to find out more.



There is a thread about what living Romance language is closer to Latin, the conclusion was, Romanian is closest grammatically, but Italian lexically. Romanian is the only one that kept the 3 genders, declensions (though lesser than Latin), the supine, and it even kept the non-compound way to form the pluperfect just like Latin. Though Portuguese can do that, too, in PT it's formal and the compound form is favored. See Romanian verbs. The only 'downside' of its grammar is how it lost much of its subjunctive, so Italian/Spanish/Portuguese are closer to Latin in that regard. The Romanian language isn't understood by the rest of Romance languages speakers, as you say, it's the most conservative.


----------



## ger4

涼宮 said:


> There is a thread about what living Romance language is closer to Latin, the conclusion was, Romanian is closest grammatically, but Italian lexically. Romanian is the only one that kept the 3 genders, declensions (though lesser than Latin), the supine, and it even kept the non-compound way to form the pluperfect just like Latin. Though Portuguese can do that, too, in PT it's formal and the compound form is favored. See Romanian verbs. The only 'downside' of its grammar is how it lost much of its subjunctive, so Italian/Spanish/Portuguese are closer to Latin in that regard. The Romanian language isn't understood by the rest of Romance languages speakers, as you say, it's the most conservative.


Thanks a lot, the thread you mentioned is really interesting. Sometimes geographically isolated languages and dialects (and communities) seem to have preserved features that have disappeared elsewhere... just like the 'Banater Schwaben', a German-speaking community in Romania, still speak a dialect that has disappeared in Germany...


----------



## 涼宮

Oh, I was actually thinking of this huge thread: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=36989&highlight=closest+language+to+Latin and this one http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2828323&highlight=closest+language+to+Latin


----------



## ger4

涼宮 said:


> Oh, I was actually thinking of this huge thread: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=36989&highlight=closest+language+to+Latin and this one http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2828323&highlight=closest+language+to+Latin


 Even more interesting, thanks again!


----------



## bibax

> ... though using the possessive is actually a bit strange...


I nearly forgot  that in Czech we wouldn't use the possessive pronoun in the given sentence (and in similar constructions). It would sound strange.

We use the personal pronouns in dative. As we have also a reflexive personal pronoun, the distiction reflexive/non-reflexive is preserved.

Czech:

(1) Opravuje *si* vůz (auto).
(2) Opravuje *mu* vůz (auto). Opravuje *jí/jim/nám/vám* auto.

si (long form: sobě) = to/for myself/yourself/himself/herself/ourselves/etc.
... corresponds to Latim sibi (like in "non sibi, sed patriae"_ = not for self, but for fatherland_)

mu = to/for him
jí = to/for her
jim = to/for them
nám = to/for us
vám = to/for you

The reflexive personal pronoun doesn't express gender/number, as the gender/number is already expressed by the subject of the sentence.


----------



## Outsider

Rallino said:


> *O, bisikletini tamir ediyor*. This sentence has now 3 possible meanings:
> 1. S/he is repairing his/her bicycle.
> 2. S/he is repairing his/her own bicycle.
> 3. S/he is repairing *your* bicycle.


The same ambiguity can happen in Portuguese, though for a different reason: the 3rd. person pronouns can also be employed as formal 2nd. person pronouns.


----------



## 123xyz

Macedonian:

Тој ја поправа својата кола - He's repairing his car (his own)
Тој ја поправа неговата кола - He's repairing his car (someone else's)

So, we have the distinction, and the use of the reflexive possessive is obligatory in all cases where applicable. This mirrors the situation of other Slavic languages, evidently.


----------



## ger4

123xyz said:


> Тој ја поправа својата кола - He's repairing his car (his own)
> Тој ја поправа неговата кола - He's repairing his car (someone else's)


Interesting, thank you. Is 'ja' a pronoun referring to 'кола'? Could a literal translation be something like 'he it repairs his-the car' ?


----------



## 123xyz

Holger2014 said:


> Interesting, thank you. Is 'ja' a pronoun referring to 'кола'? Could a literal translation be something like 'he it repairs the-of-his car' or (less literally): 'He repairs it, the car of his' ?



"ја" is a short feminine direct object pronoun, indeed referring to "кола" - since "кола" is definite (not directly - it's part of a definite noun phrase, with the article marked on the first element, namely the possessive pronoun), such a reduplicative pronoun is obligatory. Yes, a literal translation would be along the lines of what you suggested, most specifically "he it repairs his-the car". I don't see any reason to include "of" - there is no such element in the Macedonian original.


----------



## ger4

Thanks a lot.


----------



## ger4

Again, thanks for all the replies!

Czech  #4
Danish  #1
Finnish  #28 #30
French  #13
German  #12
Greek  #7
Hungarian  #11
Japanese  #3
Latin  #4  #10
Latvian  #1
Macedonian #23  #25
Polish #1
Portuguese #2  #15  #22
Romanian  #12
Spanish  #9
Turkish  #8

I added three languages myself: Danish, Polish and Latvian. Perhaps native speakers can double-check if there is anything to be corrected.


----------



## Armas

In Finnish it's not ambiguous.


Hän korjaa autoaan = He repairs car + possessive suffix -an "his/her/its" = his own car.
Hän korjaa tämän autoa = He repairs the car of this = someone else's.


If the subject is not hän (he/she), we use hänen (his/her) to refer to the other person.


John korjaa autoaan = his own.
John korjaa hänen autoaan = someone else's.


----------



## ger4

Thank you. Is it possible to replace _hän_ by _se_ in colloquial Finnish here?


----------



## Armas

Yes, we often say se (it) instead of hän. Thus in colloquial Finnish

Se korjaa autoa(an) = It repairs car (+ possessive suffix). The use of poss. suffixes is optional in colloquial Finnish. If it's used, the car is his own, if it's not used, it can be any car.
Se korjaa sen autoa = It repairs its car = own or someone else's.

We would not say Se korjaa tämän autoa, since tämä in this sense is not used in colloquial speech.


----------



## ger4

Thanks, that's interesting.


----------

