# Orthographic Reform



## Outsider

I'd like to learn a little about the recent spelling reforms of German, and the controversies around them. Where can I do that on the Web?
In English, French, or Spanish, please.

Thanks.


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## Whodunit

Hello,

Actually, I already wanted to draw up a sticky thread here, but didn't manage it yet.

You can look here and train here.

And here you have a German only site - too much to translate.

Plus, here is an article.


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## Outsider

Vielen Dank.


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## gaer

Outsider said:
			
		

> I'd like to learn a little about the recent spelling reforms of German, and the controversies around them. Where can I do that on the Web?
> In English, French, or Spanish, please.
> 
> Thanks.


Do you just want to know about it? Or do you already write German and with to know what you need to change? 

Gaer


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## Outsider

I'm just curious about what the reform intends to change, and why. I do not speak German, I'm afraid.


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## gaer

Outsider said:
			
		

> I'm just curious about what the reform intends to change, and why. I do not speak German, I'm afraid.


 
The first thing you need to know is that it has already CHANGED things! It's in the past. 

I can tell you that none of the changes has effected me in any way when I read. I did not even realize that the spelling of many words was changed in newer books. I simply don't notice such things, but I was taught just enough about writing to have absorbed some of the older spellings. 

Gaer


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> The first thing you need to know is that it has already CHANGED things! It's in the past.
> 
> I can tell you that none of the changes has effected me in any way when I read. I did not even realize that the spelling of many words was changed in newer books. I simply don't notice such things, but I was taught just enough about writing to have absorbed some of the older spellings.
> 
> Gaer



Didn't you really notice words like "er ißt" --> "er isst"? I think it's not difficult to remember such things at all: "Schwimmeister" --> "Schwimmmeister", is it?


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## gaer

whodunit said:
			
		

> Didn't you really notice words like "er ißt" --> "er isst"? I think it's not difficult to remember such things at all: "Schwimmeister" --> "Schwimmmeister", is it?


Absolutely not. You see, I belonged to a forum where everything was written this way:

Baer, muessen, Koenig, schoen. The reason was that German characters were not available. Now, the lack of ä, ö, ü annoyed me, because it slowed down my reading. But ss or ß makes no difference to me. I simply try to remember which is correct now.

That's why I recently typed "Strasse" here, by mistake. I screw up up ß and ss all the time. As for Schweimmmeister, the only way I can tell if it is right is if I count the number of "s's". In this window, at this font size, it's just a blur of humps. 

Ah, to have young eyes again. <sigh>

Gaer


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> Absolutely not. You see, I belonged to a forum where everything was written this way:
> 
> Baer, muessen, Koenig, schoen. The reason was that German characters were not available. Now, the lack of ä, ö, ü annoyed me, because it slowed down my reading. But ss or ß makes no difference to me. I simply try to remember which is correct now.
> 
> That's why I recently typed "Strasse" here, by mistake. I screw up up ß and ss all the time. As for Schweimmmeister, the only way I can tell if it is right is if I count the number of "*m*'s". In this window, at this font size, it's just a blur of humps.
> 
> Ah, to have young eyes again. <sigh>
> 
> Gaer



Oh, I do the exact opposite. I can't read for example 'Geoelte Tueren von fuenf weissen Haeusern' as far as 'Geölte Türen von fünf weißen Häusern'. It looks wrong, and the spellchecker also correct it to ä, ö, ü, and ß.


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## gaer

whodunit said:
			
		

> Oh, I do the exact opposite. I can't read for example 'Geoelte Tueren von fuenf weissen Haeusern' as far as 'Geölte Türen von fünf weißen Häusern'. It looks wrong, and the spellchecker also correct it to ä, ö, ü, and ß.


First of all, perhaps you have forgotten that I have a spellchecker for Spanish and French, but none for German. That's VERY irritating.

Second, although I can read "Geoelte Tueren von fuenf weissen Haeusern", it slows me down a bit, and it also looks wrong. But here are the words that do NOT look wrong:

Dass, daß, muss, muß, etc. Because I've seen them all both ways, for me it is like reading BE and AE. For the same reason, it makes no difference to me if I see "grey" or "gray", "favour" or "favor", but "doppelganger", in English, annoys me. It's all about what you get used to, I think. 

Gaer


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## Whodunit

> It's all about what you get used to, I think.



I won't forget this saying.



> First of all, perhaps you have forgotten that I have a spellchecker for Spanish and French, but none for German. That's VERY irritating.



But you can also see that your spellchecker for French would correct soeur to sœur and desole to désolé etc. It's the same with Spanish niña and German Bäume. 



> Second, although I can read "Geoelte Tueren von fuenf weissen Haeusern", it slows me down a bit, and it also looks wrong. But here are the words that do NOT look wrong:
> 
> Dass, daß, muss, muß, etc. Because I've seen them all both ways, for me it is like reading BE and AE. For the same reason, it makes no difference to me if I see "grey" or "gray", "favour" or "favor", but "doppelganger", in English, annoys me.



I learned, it is "First(ly), Secondly, Third(ly), ..." but secondly has to be with the adverb ending, hasn't it?

"daß" really looks wrong to me, also "muß". The sentence I wrote would completely drive me crazy.


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## gaer

whodunit said:
			
		

> But you can also see that your spellchecker for French would correct soeur to sœur and desole to désolé etc. It's the same with Spanish niña and German Bäume.


Exactly. And this is a very handy thing. In English it not only catches typos but also words that always give me a problem. In German it would alert me to words that have changed from the old spellings to the new ones.
===================
I learned, it is "First(ly), Secondly, Third(ly), ..." but secondly has to be with the adverb ending, hasn't it?
-----------------------
No. They have to be consistent. If you use one style, you have to use it as you continuing make points. If you reason it through, imagine the silly things you end up with. Sevenly? Seventhly?

This is another matter of style. I've seen fine writers do it both way. I actually checked "the rule" at one time, but when I discovered that there is no correct answer, I only remembered the conclusion and forget where I found the answer. 

Gaer

"daß" really looks wrong to me, also "muß". The sentence I wrote would completely drive me crazy.[/QUOTE]


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> No. They have to be consistent. If you use one style, you have to use it as you continuing make points. If you reason it through, imagine the silly things you end up with. Sevenly? Seventhly?



Well, did you answer my question? I wanted to ask what is the correct way to list them? With the adverb ending or not. I'd definitely say "seventhly", although it seems to be hard to pronounce.


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## gaer

whodunit said:
			
		

> Well, did you answer my question? I wanted to ask what is the correct way to list them? With the adverb ending or not. I'd definitely say "seventhly", although it seems to be hard to pronounce.


I meant to answer your question, but my answer is an opinion. This looks like another topic for English.

I use: First, second, third, etc.

Others use Firstly, secondly, thirdly, etc.

I've never seen anyone get beyond 4 or 5 that way. I think that if you ask about "seventhly", people will tell you that they would not say it.

Time for another English thread. 

Gaer


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## alc112

I have a question abouot this:
How do you write the past participle of kennenlernen, Would anyone post sentende with that verb in Present, Past and Present perfect in german (I know In german It isn't called "present perfect" i don't know the name in german)
thanks


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## Whodunit

alc112 said:
			
		

> I have a question abouot this:
> How do you write the past participle of kennenlernen, Would anyone post sentende with that verb in Present, Past and Present perfect in german (I know In german It isn't called "present perfect" i don't know the name in german)
> thanks



Firstly, it's "kennen lernen" as two words:

present (Präsens):
ich lerne kennen
du lernst kennen _(etc. conjugated like kennen)_

past (Präteritum):
ich lernte kennen
du lerntest kennen _(etc. conjugated like kennen)_

present perfect (Perfekt):
ich habe kennen gelernt
du hast kennen gelernt _(etc. conjugated like haben)_


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## alc112

whodunit said:
			
		

> Firstly, it's "kennen lernen" as two words:


 

Oh really?
My Lehrerin taught me that The two verbs formm one. But she didn't know that know has changed
thankyou


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## Whodunit

alc112 said:
			
		

> Oh really?
> My Lehrerin taught me that The two verbs formm one. But she didn't know that know has changed
> thankyou



It's a thorny subject, but it's clear that 'kennenlernen' has changed to 'kennen lernen' after the spelling reform. Do you know about it?


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## gaer

whodunit said:
			
		

> It's a thorny subject, but it's clear that 'kennenlernen' has changed to 'kennen lernen' after the spelling reform. Do you know about it?


*I* did not know about that until you corrected me. And I don't know how to write this word (these words) now when the come to the end:

[Es ist] sehr nett dich kennen zu lernen. Is that right? I only learned about "zurzeit" about a week or two ago, from you. Older people are still using many of the older forms, which is very confusing. One lady who wrote me from Germany still writes Du, Dich, Dir, the old way I think, for being polite in a personal letter.

Do you think this is wrong? I did the same thing when I answered only because I thought she might think I was being impolite using lower-case.

Gaer


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> *I* did not know about that until you corrected me. And I don't know how to write this word (these words) now when the come to the end:
> 
> [Es ist] sehr nett dich kennen zu lernen. Is that right? I only learned about "zurzeit" about a week or two ago, from you. Older people are still using many of the older forms, which is very confusing. One lady who wrote me from Germany still writes Du, Dich, Dir, the old way I think, for being polite in a personal letter.
> 
> Do you think this is wrong? I did the same thing when I answered only because I thought she might think I was being impolite using lower-case.
> 
> Gaer



Well, it's not right and not wrong ... yet. The old spelling reform is still correct till 7/31/05, so very soon. But it's impolite for me to see such "old" (not archaic) words, as I grew up with the new ones.

I hate letters with the old reform, because it's not up-to-date, I think, and nor the people who use it. The girl who wrote you the letter might be older than 20 and not at school any more.

But I have to admit I really hate compounds like "zurzeit", "zumute", but also hate the two-words-spelling of "des Öfteren", "des Weiteren", "kennen lernen", "noch mal" etc.

There're more problems because of the new spelling reform, but it also got rid of some problems. I once wanted to make a list here as a sticky thread, but then I realised (BE or AE: -z-?)  I would have to write on over two A4-sized papers - and that seems to be too much for learners.


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## gaer

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=19290&page=3&pp=10
Who,

I had to many questions to use quotes.

[Es ist] sehr nett dich kennen zu lernen. Is that right? I only learned about "zurzeit" about a week or two ago, from you. Older people are still using many of the older forms, which is very confusing. One lady who wrote me from Germany still writes Du, Dich, Dir, the old way I think, for being polite in a personal letter.
===================
Do you think this is wrong? I did the same thing when I answered only because I thought she might think I was being impolite using lower-case.
-----------------------
Well, it's not right and not wrong ... yet. The old spelling reform is still correct till 7/31/05, so very soon. But it's impolite for me to see such "old" (not archaic) words, as I grew up with the new ones.
-----------------------
I'd never call writing the old way impolite. I'd call it "old-fashioned".
===================
I hate letters with the old reform, because it's not up-to-date, I think, and nor the people who use it. The girl who wrote you the letter might be older than 20 and not at school any more.
-----------------------
Oh, that was no girl. She's close to 50 years old. But it's pretty sad when I know more of the changes than she does, and I don't have a spellchecker.
===================
But I have to admit I really hate compounds like "zurzeit", "zumute", but also hate the two-words-spelling of "des Öfteren", "des Weiteren", "kennen lernen", "noch mal" etc.
-----------------------
Only "kennen lernen" looks new to me. Is "noch mal" right? What is wrong with "des Öfteren" and "des Weiteren". Or what has been changed?
===================
There're more problems because of the new spelling reform, but it also got rid of some problems. I once wanted to make a list here as a sticky thread, but then I realised (BE or AE: -z-?) I would have to write on over two A4-sized papers - and that seems to be too much for learners.
-----------------------
[Realise BE, realize AE…]

Let's talk about doing it and how it might work best. I think it's a very important issue. Although if you and I are the only people interested, then maybe we should just give up. 

Gaer


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=19290&page=3&pp=10
> Who,
> 
> I had to*o* many questions to use quotes.
> 
> [Es ist] sehr nett dich kennen zu lernen. Is that right? I only learned about "zurzeit" about a week or two ago, from you. Older people are still using many of the older forms, which is very confusing. One lady who wrote me from Germany still writes Du, Dich, Dir, the old way I think, for being polite in a personal letter.
> ===================
> Do you think this is wrong? I did the same thing when I answered only because I thought she might think I was being impolite using lower-case.
> -----------------------
> Well, it's not right and not wrong ... yet. The old spelling reform is still correct till 7/31/05, so very soon. But it's impolite for me to see such "old" (not archaic) words, as I grew up with the new ones.
> -----------------------
> I'd never call writing the old way impolite. I'd call it "old-fashioned".
> ===================
> I hate letters with the old reform, because it's not up-to-date, I think, and nor the people who use it. The girl who wrote you the letter might be older than 20 and not at school any more.
> -----------------------
> Oh, that was no girl. She's close to 50 years old. But it's pretty sad when I know more of the changes than she does, and I don't have a spellchecker.
> ===================
> But I have to admit I really hate compounds like "zurzeit", "zumute", but also hate the two-words-spelling of "des Öfteren", "des Weiteren", "kennen lernen", "noch mal" etc.
> -----------------------
> Only "kennen lernen" looks new to me. Is "noch mal" right? What is wrong with "des Öfteren" and "des Weiteren". Or what has been changed?
> ===================
> There're more problems because of the new spelling reform, but it also got rid of some problems. I once wanted to make a list here as a sticky thread, but then I realised (BE or AE: -z-?) I would have to write on over two A4-sized papers - and that seems to be too much for learners.
> -----------------------
> [Realise BE, realize AE…]
> 
> Let's talk about doing it and how it might work best. I think it's a very important issue. Although if you and I are the only people interested, then maybe we should just give up.
> 
> Gaer



Why not doing like the English? They'd never changed their reform, and we twice or three times, even the characters ...

I think, we are not the only people interested, but we have to announce, everyone had to know the new rules till the 7/31.

Well, to your corresponding with the 50-years-old lady, I can tell you: "You can't teach a grandmother to suck eggs (in German: Das Ei kann nicht klüger sein als die Henne)", i.e. if you use the new spelling to "converse in writing" with a person who learned the old one, it'll look strange to its eyes - and maybe it will smile.


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## Whodunit

Sorry, I forgot something:

"noch mal" is colloquial and means "noch einmal (once more/again)"
"des Weiteren" is the new form of "desweiteren"
"des Öfteren" is the new form of "desöfteren".

But please ask Ralf for the old spelling.


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## gaer

whodunit said:
			
		

> Sorry, I forgot something:
> 
> "noch mal" is colloquial and means "noch einmal (once more/again)"
> "des Weiteren" is the new form of "desweiteren"
> "des Öfteren" is the new form of "desöfteren".
> 
> But please ask Ralf for the old spelling.


I only found "nochmal" on Leo. But that would be because it is written as one word.

On Google I found noch mal was more frequent. It's seems logical. I've never seen "nocheinmal", so why should "noch mal" be one word?

I found "desweiteren" and "desöfteren". It's getting harder and harder to find such words marked as "alte Rechtschreibung von…" as the new spellings become more and more accepted.

"des Weiteren" and "des Öfteren" look much better to me. On the whole, since I've learned more about it, I agree that the new rules have solved many more problems than they've caused. 

Gaer


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## gaer

whodunit said:
			
		

> Why not doing like the English? They'd never changed their reform, and we twice or three times, even the characters ...
> 
> I think, we are not the only people interested, but we have to announce, everyone had to know the new rules till the 7/31.
> 
> Well, to your corresponding with the 50-years-old lady, I can tell you: "You can't teach a grandmother to suck eggs (in German: Das Ei kann nicht klüger sein als die Henne)", i.e. if you use the new spelling to "converse in writing" with a person who learned the old one, it'll look strange to its eyes - and maybe it will smile.


Do you mean that everyone needs to know them by 7/31 of this year? I'm confused because I thought the rules were already a "done deal". 

About this: ""You can't teach a grandmother to suck eggs"…

"Go suck eggs" is similar in meaning to "go f--- yourself", so you have to be careful. 

I would suggest that you don't say that unless you know someone very well. It sounds very rude. Our saying: You can't teach an old god new tricks."

I like the German saying: "The egg can't be 'smarter' than the hen." It explains a great deal of what is wrong with the world. The idea is that age is always the ultimate "trump card". No one young has anything to teach anyone old, or merely older. It's really ridiculous!

This is why I HATE teaching adults. They won't listen, they are stubborn, they talk the whole time I try to explain things. They drive me nuts. I've only taught one adult successfully my entire life. And excuses? You should HERE these "grown-ups" come up with excuses why they have no time to do any work!!! 

Gaer


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> Do you mean that everyone needs to know them by 7/31 of this year? I'm confused because I thought the rules were already a "done deal".
> 
> About this: ""You can't teach a grandmother to suck eggs"…
> 
> "Go suck eggs" is similar in meaning to "go f--- yourself", so you have to be careful.
> 
> I would suggest that you don't say that unless you know someone very well. It sounds very rude. Our saying: You can't teach an old god new tricks."
> 
> I like the German saying: "The egg can't be 'smarter' than the hen." It explains a great deal of what is wrong with the world. The idea is that age is always the ultimate "trump card". No one young has anything to teach anyone old, or merely older. It's really ridiculous!
> 
> This is why I HATE teaching adults. They won't listen, they are stubborn, they talk the whole time I try to explain things. They drive me nuts. I've only taught one adult successfully my entire life. And excuses? You should HERE these "grown-ups" come up with excuses why they have no time to do any work!!!
> 
> Gaer



Of course, I'm always carful with these sayings. The actual saying goes "Das Ei will klüger sein als die Henne", and Focalist taught me the English one "Teach your grandmother to suck eggs!"

AFAIK, you're an adult and I'm not. But I really like to teach you something; and it IS sometimes fine to tach an adult about the new spelling reform, but anytime, (s)he'll also drive me crazy. We can't generalize this topic.


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## gaer

whodunit said:
			
		

> and Focalist taught me the English one "Teach your grandmother to suck eggs!"


 
This could be the start of an interesting topic for discussing idioms. I hope you don't mind. I'm going to use it. 


> AFAIK, you're an adult and I'm not. But I really like to teach you something; and it IS sometimes fine to tach an adult about the new spelling reform, but anytime, (s)he'll also drive me crazy. We can't generalize this topic.


 
I'm not sure what "AFAIK" stands for. I'd like to suggest a new way of thinking. It is not school here. Your age has no significance to me, only what you know. I began teaching piano when I was no older than 16. Granted, I'm a much better teacher today, but I believe I was better than most from the start.

When it comes to the German language, I have a ton to learn, and you have already taught me a great deal. Without you and Ralf, I would not be coming to this forum daily, and I would never have become interested in the other forums.

The teacher is the one who knows. The student is the one who comes to learn. It should always be that way, and it is a great tragedy that people equate age with wisdom and maturity. Since I'm here to learn, I don't care if the person teaching me is 50, 20, or 10. 

Gaer


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> This could be the start of an interesting topic for discussing idioms. I hope you don't mind. I'm going to use it.



I don't mind at all — exactly the opposite.   




> I'm not sure what "AFAIK" stands for. I'd like to suggest a new way of thinking. It is not school here. Your age has no significance to me, only what you know. I began teaching piano when I was no older than 16. Granted, I'm a much better teacher today, but I believe I was better than most from the start.
> 
> When it comes to the German language, I have a ton to learn, and you have already taught me a great deal. Without you and Ralf, I would not be coming to this forum daily, and I would never have become interested in the other forums.
> 
> The teacher is the one who knows. The student is the one who comes to learn. It should always be that way, and it is a great tragedy that people equate age with wisdom and maturity. Since I'm here to learn, I don't care if the person teaching me is 50, 20, or 10.
> 
> Gaer



AFAIK should mean 'As far as I know', I thought it's a chat abbreviation.

I wouldn't come either if you weren't here. You're almost the only one who asks the questions for this forum. If you weren't here, this forum would definitely die.

Yes, it is true that teacher HAD to know and the student HAD to be taught. But at our school, it's often exactly the opposite. I don't know, why, but many teacher don't know e.g. the new spelling reform. And it's a tragedy if they don't want to be taught by us students. I really HATE such teachers.


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