# Pop-pschology



## Amityville

This question might be better off in the Culture forum but well, if you think so please feel free to move it but it is language-related for the moment
...in English (both BE and AE) a lot of psychological theory and labelling has become popularised to the extent of being part of common speech and heard almost in all the bars and coffeeshops - references to Oedipus and Electra complexes, penis envy (hi Venus), anal-retentiveness (someone only has to get out the vacuum-cleaner to be accused of this), being in denial, narcissism, being bipolar (used to be manic-depressive), Munchausen's syndrome by proxy, Tourettes, attention deficit disorder, going hyperactive, and many more.
I have seen a similar leaning towards self- and other-analysis in French women's magazines - "why do I do this, because of my childhood" kind of thing - but outside of that I have the impression it is less in France. Are the words for these concepts in common currency in French ? I have heard bipolaire but that's all. 
(I haven't got all of the above by the way)


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## Cath.S.

Hi Amityville, I'd say Freud and psychoanalysis were fashionable in the 1970's but it's no longer the case. That kind of talk might well be heard in TV programs, but not in real people's everyday conversation.

We retained a couple of expressions, though:
_être parano(ïaque) = to be paranoïd_
_fantasmer = to fantasize_ (in the sexual sense).

I'm sure there's more - I'm probably suffering from a case of _amnésie hystérique_. 

I personally thank goodness that French society has not become over-medicalised or psychiatrised to the ridiculous extent some other countries have.


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## Amityville

Thanks, egueule, you confirm a little bit what I thought,  but why do you call me 'Outsider' ? Rapidly becoming paranoid.....


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## Cath.S.

I don't know, Amityville. I apologize. I can't explain : it's too dark in my soul for me to see.


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## Amityville

that's ok, then. We all have our funny ways. I sometimes get Tourettes -(a syndrome identified by a French medic by the sound of it) - as you might have noticed elsewhere on the forum. A case in point - do you understand me without thinking about it  ?


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## timpeac

People in France can be "maniaques" which means they have "manies". This has a different meaning from English, however, and is much gentler. "un maniaque" is someone who is very particular about something, and "une manie" is a funny little way.


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## Cath.S.

Yeah, a French doctor called Gilles de la Tourette.


> do you understand me without thinking about it ?


Not this part, and I must confess that even when I do think about it, I still don't get your meaning. 
C'est grave, docteur ?


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## Amityville

Hi Tim, yes having funny little ways is nice. I usually hear maniaque to mean houseproud, not much more.
Re Tourettes, thankyou for the link, egueule, it says Tourette discovered une maladie des tics nerveux. A few years ago there were some programs on the BBC about this illness with case studies. Often, along with the uncontrollable jerks and grimaces, the victims of it swear loudly and compulsively in public places. It was shocking and puzzling because they seemed to be the unwilling plaything of this swearing impulse. But swearing is a learned thing, unlike a grimace, or lack of muscle control. I think it made such an impression on the general public (having seen a poor embarrassed mother taking her son round a supermarket with this going on) that it became a reference point (oops, just had an attack of Tourettes). It is not everyone that says this, but it is still quite well known.


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## timpeac

Amityville said:
			
		

> Hi Tim, yes having funny little ways is nice. I usually hear maniaque to mean houseproud, not much more.
> Re Tourettes, thankyou for the link, egueule, it says Tourette discovered une maladie des tics nerveux. A few years ago there were some programs on the BBC about this illness with case studies. Often, along with the uncontrollable jerks and grimaces, the victims of it swear loudly and compulsively in public places. It was shocking and puzzling because they seemed to be the unwilling plaything of this swearing impulse. But swearing is a learned thing, unlike a grimace, or lack of muscle control. I think it made such an impression on the general public (having seen a poor embarrassed mother taking her son round a supermarket with this going on) that it became a reference point (oops, just had an attack of Tourettes). It is not everyone that says this, but it is still quite well known.


 
That is a common one, but it can be any funny way.

Find out if you are one here -

http://www.club-internet.fr/psycho_tests/tests.phtml?idRub=10&idTest=83


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## Aupick

My own impressions are a little different in that I've been a little surprised by how well integrated certain ideas are in the mainstream in France. It's not so much pop psychology as pop psychoanalysis, which can be found quite widely. Child care books, for example, don't hesitate to talk about the Oedipus complex or anal stages, references to which I've never found in American and British equivalents. I get the feeling that American and British books talk about Freudian concepts without using Freudian terminology ('he's on a power trip because he's discovered he can control his bowels' kind of thing instead of 'he's progressing through the anal stage') because they've been _too_ popularized and they're scared of not being taken seriously. I know that Freud's not taken very seriously by _professional_ American psychologist these days, even if pop psychology still likes him. In France, however, when mothers write in to advice columns in magazines, the _psy_ won't hesitate to say 'Oh, he's just going through the Oedipus stage. Be firm and don't let him crawl into bed with you when papa's not there', and so on. (France and Argentina are apparently the only countries left where psychoanalysis is still truly practiced. There are a couple on the main street in the town where I live, with brass plates like anyone else in the medical profession.) But perhaps my experience is just limited, or maybe I'm working through issues of my own...


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## Amityville

Please supply a translation of any of those in my first post, Benjy, if you can to make it legal, as I am hopeful of a better class of answer here.
Aupick, really interesting - do you have 'power trip' in French ?


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## Cath.S.

> do you have 'power trip' in French


No. But I just remembered another expression we use often : "c'est psychosomatique", often abbreviated to _somatique_ btw lol.


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## Agnès E.

Amityville said:
			
		

> Oedipus and Electra complexes, penis envy (hi Venus), anal-retentiveness (someone only has to get out the vacuum-cleaner to be accused of this), being in denial, narcissism, being bipolar (used to be manic-depressive), Munchausen's syndrome by proxy, Tourettes, attention deficit disorder, going hyperactive, and many more.


 
Complexe d'Oedipe
Déni
Narcissisme
Maniacodépressif - maniacodépression
Syndrome de Munchhausen, syndrome de Munchhausen par procuration
Syndrome de Tourettes
Déficit de l'attention
Hyperactivité
TOC = troubles obsessionnels-compulsifs


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## Amityville

Thankyou, Agnes - I guess you don't use these much in ordinary conversation ?




			
				Aupick said:
			
		

> My own impressions are a little different in that I've been a little surprised by how well integrated certain ideas are in the mainstream in France. It's not so much pop psychology as pop psychoanalysis, which can be found quite widely. Child care books, for example, don't hesitate to talk about the Oedipus complex or anal stages, references to which I've never found in American and British equivalents. I get the feeling that American and British books talk about Freudian concepts without using Freudian terminology ('he's on a power trip because he's discovered he can control his bowels' kind of thing instead of 'he's progressing through the anal stage') because they've been _too_ popularized and they're scared of not being taken seriously. I know that Freud's not taken very seriously by _professional_ American psychologist these days, even if pop psychology still likes him. In France, however, when mothers write in to advice columns in magazines, the _psy_ won't hesitate to say 'Oh, he's just going through the Oedipus stage. Be firm and don't let him crawl into bed with you when papa's not there', and so on. (France and Argentina are apparently the only countries left where psychoanalysis is still truly practiced. There are a couple on the main street in the town where I live, with brass plates like anyone else in the medical profession.) But perhaps my experience is just limited, or maybe I'm working through issues of my own...


 
I have been thinking about what you said since you posted this, Aupick - it rings so true though I haven't seen it for myself - and it seems to me that this is just one aspect of a whole subconscious bag of stuff, a massive cultural difference, involving the Revolution, attitudes to authority and health and more. I reluctantly suppose any more discussion belongs in 'Culture' although it is specifically French/English/American culture. Thanks for expressing it so neatly and making me think.


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## Aupick

Yeah, there's a whole load of unconscious cultural differences that I think go very deep into different societies. It's always struck me, for instance, that representations of the government, the state, the nation are nearly always masculine in American culture, mostly masculine in British culture, and nearly always feminine in French culture. What does this say about attitudes to authority, to politics and to government? (Especially when it comes to the Oedipus complex. Hmmm.)

Examples: 
US = Uncle Sam
Britain = John Bull or Britannia
France = Marianne, or even better Marianne

The one main exception is the Statue of Liberty in American culture, but that was a gift from the French...

But maybe this should be the start of a new thread?


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## Rayines

Hallo: I arrive late to this thread, and I don't dare to speak a lot, because of my English (afraid of not understanding the others or not knowing how to express myself). But I've considered it (the thread) a very interesting one, and I agree with Aupik #10 (being myself psychologist, and from Argentine). Of course I consider the developement of psychoanalysis that specially France, and UK have made are great, the same as the USA in other applications of Psychology. But I just wanted to remark this about the "ideas in the mainstream", as Aupik has said. Here also, there's a popular psychoanalitic culture, a little because here its practice has never been left (everyone crazy!...No, olny joking), and because there have also been here interesting theoretical developements. (Hope to be understood). Bye....


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## Amityville

Your English is good, Rayines, do contribute more.
When Aupick said these were ideas in the mainstream, he meant part of the medical establishment rather than jokey subculture. To the French, these are serious treatable conditions whereas in the UK and USA, everyone's crazy, as you say about Argentina, it's kind of accepted, and talking about these syndromes doesnt mean you have accepted wholesale the theory behind them.


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## Rayines

> When Aupick said these were ideas in the mainstream, he meant part of the medical establishment rather than jokey subculture


*Oh!, thank you, Amityville. My idea - a little contradictory, maybe, is that part of the population, here in Argentina, has "made of their own" (?) good ideas that come from our psychoanalityc culture, and part of it, only repeat things without knowing their deep meaning. (Not sure if THIS has to do with your main subject). But I wanted in one sense to remark the positive sense of this sort of "spreading" (Not so much work for pshycologists....LOL).*
*I'll be reading your mails by the moment  *


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## Cath.S.

Aupick said:
			
		

> Yeah, there's a whole load of unconscious cultural differences that I think go very deep into different societies. It's always struck me, for instance, that representations of the government, the state, the nation are nearly always masculine in American culture, mostly masculine in British culture, and nearly always feminine in French culture. *What does this say about attitudes to authority, to politics and to government?* (Especially when it comes to the Oedipus complex. Hmmm.)
> 
> Examples:
> US = Uncle Sam
> Britain = John Bull or Britannia
> France = Marianne, or even better Marianne
> 
> The one main exception is the Statue of Liberty in American culture, but that was a gift from the French...
> 
> But maybe this should be the start of a new thread?


La France est un pays de culture patriarcale, et lorsque nous autres Français imaginons le pouvoir et l'autorité, nous faisons comme quasiment tout le reste de la planète : nous nous représentons des hommes.

Incidemment, puisque tu es francophone, je te rappelle qu'en français quasiment tous les mots d'argot qui désignent le sexe masculin sont de genre féminin. On peut imaginer que c'est là l'expression d'un désir d'en appeler à l'anima, d'apprivoiser l'animal. On peut l'imaginer, oui, cela ne coûte rien. 

Mais la sexualité de l'homme en est-elle féminisée ? Que nenni. Peut-être même cet emploi de termes féminins pour désigner une chose essentiellement masculine ne fait-il que renforcer cette masculinité, en la contrastant.
Je pense qu'il en va de même pour les mots du pouvoir. 

Marianne est une représentation née de la Révolution Française, révolution qui fut singulièreent sanglante et, osèi-je dire, virile. Marianne est la figure féminine qui sert de paravent à tous ces hommes armés luttant pour... le pouvoir ? Ou bien était-ce la puissance ?


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## Amityville

I get what you mean, Rayines. You genuinely feel this is a positive thing, without joking ? In what way ? Have a look at egueule's post #2 - she doesn't think so.
Some of these ideas, the Oedipus complex, for example, strike a chord in the communal consciousness, and it has become a handy phrase. Penis envy, on the other hand, is very much a joke. 
In the UK, people accused of an offence often give a pop-psychological reason as extenuating circumstances - they had an unhappy childhood and this has become so commonplace as to become a bit of a joke. Recently in the press, I have seen a man who murdered his parents described as having a Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Is this really an illness ? (Going off at a tangent I know)
At a lesser level, Attention Deficit Disorder is another one - this is apparently why some kids do badly in school.
Maybe in some countries, like egueule says, it has become just too much, the use of quasi-medical terminology.


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## Amityville

That is powerful, egueule, and very psychological. I need to study it.


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## timpeac

Rayines said:
			
		

> Hallo: I arrive late to this thread, and I don't dare to speak a lot, because of my English (afraid of not understanding the others or not knowing how to express myself). But I've considered it (the thread) a very interesting one, and I agree with Aupik #10 (being myself psychologist, and from Argentine). Of course I consider the developement of psychoanalysis that specially France, and UK have made are great, the same as the USA in other applications of Psychology. But I just wanted to remark this about the "ideas in the mainstream", as Aupik has said. Here also, there's a popular psychoanalitic culture, a little because here its practice has never been left (everyone crazy!...No, olny joking), and because there have also been here interesting theoretical developements. (Hope to be understood). Bye....


 
Inés, your English is great, thanks for that. It is much more important that people express their ideas than they do it in perfect language. I often fear that people don't post in this forum because they fear that they don't speak perfect French or English. This is such a shame because we miss out on different points of view, and I wish more people would try to express themselves as they can. In your case it is not an issue, however, since your English is very clear indeed. 

Egueule - I am also going to ruminate upon your words. I had also thought that the fact that the slang words for the male genitals often being feminine stressed their masculinity rather than empowering the female. Funnily enough, and in contrast, I also think that the masculine gender of the breast, nichon, sein, etc rather than highlighting the essential femininity of the object underlines its interest to male eyes. I suppose it is very hard to view these things with any sense of objectivity since we are all already gender biased. It is hard to explain otherwise why I view the overtones of the gender of these two objects, obviously physically marked for the sex of the bearer yet having the opposite gender, so differently.


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## Rayines

*I must recognize that I read "psychology" and I "entered". Just understanding that what I said wasn't exactly what you meant; it seems to be even opposite (although I agree with your criticism). I've taken my time to re-read your messages with a dictionary . Not easy for me to explain myself in another language (the same as psychoanalists can't easily work in a foreign language). But I'll be still here...see you at any moment  .*


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## Kelly B

Very interesting indeed -- I really hadn't taken notice of the gender of those particular nouns. What I have noticed is that the gender of the "unpleasant" nouns seems to be generally feminine: fear, disease, tornado, catastrophe....

As far as the original point of the discussion, I find it rather alarming that so many of the pop-psych terms are used as excuses for an inability to cope or to take responsibility. Certainly, there are real conditions/disorders that have this effect. But the tendency to say "I cannot be expected to do xxx because my mother did yyy" has really gone too far.


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## Amityville

Rayines said:
			
		

> *I must recognize that I read "psychology" and I "entered". Just understanding that what I said wasn't exactly what you meant; it seems to be even opposite (although I agree with your criticism). I've taken my time to re-read your messages with a dictionary . Not easy for me to explain myself in another language (the same as psychoanalists can't easily work in a foreign language). But I'll be still here...see you at any moment  .*


 
Hi Rayines,
this is just a quick one as I got up late and am in a terrible rush  
If it was me you were replying to there, I am exploring this subject as I go along without an agenda and I think the others are too - we don't all have to agree - that would be boring ! My 'criticism' - (quasi-medical terminology to get out of responsibility for one's actions) just occurred to me as I was writing and wasnt directed at you, but the other thing, the jokey subculture aspect I quite like - I think. I was pointing to egueule's post to put both points of view there. Help I'm late. 
So don't be scared off, keep on posting.


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## f_zadi

I have to say the biggest cultural difference between myself and my American raised wife is this tendency to analyze behaviour with pysho-babble (to me it is such). And the thing is she doesn't do it as much as other Americans I know. I don't mean to generalize too much.

I just don't get it. French people don't sit around analyzing eachother in this way.


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## Aupick

Very interesting, egueule, in so many ways.


			
				egueule said:
			
		

> Marianne est une représentation née de la Révolution Française, révolution qui fut singulièreent sanglante et, osèi-je dire, virile. Marianne est la figure féminine qui sert de paravent à tous ces hommes armés luttant pour... le pouvoir ? Ou bien était-ce la puissance ?


So maybe representing the republic as a woman/mother draws from the same motivations as using feminine words for the male member... And now you mention it, what could be more Oedipal than killing the king, the father of the nation, in 1793 and then suckling at the breast of Marianne-République(-Jocasta) as in Daumier's picture (which is merely one of many depicting this theme).


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## Aupick

Amityville said:
			
		

> Recently in the press, I have seen a man who murdered his parents described as having a Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Is this really an illness ? (Going off at a tangent I know)
> At a lesser level, Attention Deficit Disorder is another one - this is apparently why some kids do badly in school.


The sad thing is that as pop-psychology spreads throughout a culture, its effects can be quite real. The more people joke about rambunctious kids having Attention Defiticit (Hyperactivity) Disorder, the more kids are actually being prescribed drugs like Ritalin to calm them down (in the US especially, but the tendency is spreading to the UK). I don't know what the relationship is between the jokes and the prescriptions, but I suspect that the pervasiveness of pop-psychology is not entirely innocent.

I do believe that France has a very different attitude towards childhood that may mean Ritalin won't have much of a market here, and maybe the relative lack of psycho-babble plays into it. Hyperactive kids just need structure (ils ont besoin d'être 'recadrés', people say), and clear discipline. And this approach would concur more with the psychoanalytical model, which as I've mentioned is often lurking in the background, and which emphasises the need for clarity of roles (a child IS a child and not yet a little adult), parents need to say no to them, and so on.


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## Cath.S.

Aupick said:
			
		

> Very interesting, egueule, in so many ways.
> 
> So maybe representing the republic as a woman/mother draws from the same motivations as using feminine words for the male member... And now you mention it, what could be more Oedipal than killing the king, the father of the nation, in 1793 and then suckling at the breast of Marianne-République(-Jocasta) as in Daumier's picture (which is merely one of many depicting this theme).


Thanks, Aupick, I didn't know that painting. 
What strikes me about it, beside its rather stern type of kitschness, is the fact Marianne is depicted very much like a warriorlike, albeit buxom, _man_.


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## Amityville

Aupick said:
			
		

> The sad thing is that as pop-psychology spreads throughout a culture, its effects can be quite real. The more people joke about rambunctious kids having Attention Defiticit (Hyperactivity) Disorder, the more kids are actually being prescribed drugs like Ritalin to calm them down (in the US especially, but the tendency is spreading to the UK). I don't know what the relationship is between the jokes and the prescriptions, but I suspect that the pervasiveness of pop-psychology is not entirely innocent.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Possibly, but I don't think anyone ever claimed Anal Retentiveness as an excuse for committing a crime.
> Also that parent-murderer has Narcissistic Personality Disorder according to the papers, not Oedipus complex. Can you imagine anyone claiming O.c in court ? It is pure joke material nowadays, but yes, only to be replaced by a more technical sounding thing called a Personality Disorder.
> 
> I am still out on this one.
> 
> Re the gender trip (French department), I have been talking to (French) people about this and most say it is accepted generally that the gender of specifically gender-concerned words is not significant, some kind of coincidence but then Freudians and Jungians know there is no such thing as accident and coincidence.....
> 
> 
> ps Presumably that Bobbitt woman was suffering from Penis Envy, did she ever claim that in mitigation ?


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## Everness

I think that psychoanalysis itself is Pop Psychology. It's wonderfully intuitive and descriptive, and it's assumptions and methods can't be falsified. However, I think it's great that people borrow or draw upon their intuitive knowledge of intuitive theories to talk about the mundane, and most importantly, to make sense of their lives or other people's lives. Lacan realized that Freud's work was brilliantly designed but its hypotheses had zero validity so he decided to cleverly compound things a bit more.


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## Aupick

Amityville said:
			
		

> Possibly, but I don't think anyone ever claimed Anal Retentiveness as an excuse for committing a crime.
> Also that parent-murderer has Narcissistic Personality Disorder according to the papers, not Oedipus complex. Can you imagine anyone claiming O.c in court ? It is pure joke material nowadays, but yes, only to be replaced by a more technical sounding thing called a Personality Disorder.


My point was (supposed to be) in part that pop-psychology can have a more pernicious effect than the (pop-)psychoanalysis that I think is more present in French culture. (No, I can't imagine anyone claiming such things in court: "I dinn't mean to kill me fahver, M'lud! I just ain't progressed prop-ly fru me Oedipal complex, 'ave oi?")


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## Amityville

Everness said:
			
		

> I think that psychoanalysis itself is Pop Psychology. It's wonderfully intuitive and descriptive, and it's assumptions and methods can't be falsified. However, I think it's great that people borrow or draw upon their intuitive knowledge of intuitive theories to talk about the mundane, and most importantly, to make sense of their lives or other people's lives. Lacan realized that Freud's work was brilliantly designed but its hypotheses had zero validity so he decided to cleverly compound things a bit more.


 
Hello, Everness, you sound well informed and you are using the terms with more precision than the rest of us, well me at least. I hadn't heard of Lacan before and have just this minute googled him - for anyone else who doesn't know have a look at http://www.haberarts.com/lacan.htm I havent read it through yet but it looks fascinating and very illuminating in terms of cultural differences which is what I was after. 
"Intuitive knowledge of intuitive theories"  You have expressed that in a nutshell, I believe it is what I was thinking myself, intuitively, it does help us make sense of things, provided we don't start pretending it's a science.
Maybe we should view Freud as literature - he is part of the tradition of Greek epic, tragedy, Shakespeare,  Jane Smiley 'A Thousand Acres', Eugene O'Neill et al.

Aupick, I think the trouble is that none of us really understand mental illness and the mad/bad problem is ongoing. Has this person got Narcissistic Personality Disorder or is he just wicked ? Think also of the numerous occasions a psychopath has been let loose because he has convinced a panel of psychiatrists that he is rehabilitated. No one knows, and the criminal justice system has nothing else to go on. 
Rambunctious kids, large gulf between French and British upbringing, I agree. I am just marshalling my thoughts about this but have to break off to feed mine !


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## Everness

Amityville said:
			
		

> Maybe we should view Freud as literature - he is part of the tradition of Greek epic, tragedy, Shakespeare,  Jane Smiley 'A Thousand Acres', Eugene O'Neill et al.



You are right. Freud is literature. His case studies have little to no scientific value but are extremely amusing and insightful. I have nothing against intuition as a form of knowledge. On the contrary, I think that psychology owes more to intuition than to the rigorous scientific method. 

Freud was a great observer of the human soul. He just described what he saw and put together a whole theory of personality that he continuously revised. If he paid us a visit today he would do 2 things. Firstly, he would laugh at 95% of what he wrote and would label it bullshit, and secondly he would laugh at the thousands of people who took him and continue to take him seriously. 

However, some things that psychodynamic theories teach just make total sense. A great example is the psychoanalytic idea that all our choices are oedipal in nature, especially when it comes to choosing our mate. Wrong? Absolutely not! Take a good look at the guy or gal who is sleeping in your bed and that you introduce to others as your husband or wife and you'll realize that he/she is either someone just like your mom or dad or exactly the opposite! Now, try to disagree with that!


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## Amityville

I'm glad we've got Freud in his place now.
Did you mean to cut off the thread with that Oedipus comment ? Sounds like you are in bed with 4 people; your mum, your dad and their two opposites. What a terrible thought.
PIcking up the other strand again, what do you think about the multitude of Personality and other Disorders, and their use in mitigation of crimes ? Are they meaningful,are they pernicious ?


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## Everness

Amityville said:
			
		

> PIcking up the other strand again, what do you think about the multitude of Personality and other Disorders, and their use in mitigation of crimes ? Are they meaningful,are they pernicious ?



Psychiatry, psychology, anthropology, sociology, social psychology, etc. are useful in explaining human behavior but are not intended to justify it. There are different levels of integration of human behavior. Picture a pyramid with three levels: the biological, the psychological and the axiological, and a circle containing the pyramid that would represent the sociological. I believe that we are determined by the biological and the psychological, and we are also conditioned by the sociological. However, at the axiological level and despite any and all conditionings, we are free to take responsibility for our lives and behaviors. 

The DSM-IV-R, the bible of psychiatrists, covers the biological, the psychological, and to a certain extent the sociological, but it has little or nothing to say about the axiological. As a result, we call disease what in the past we called sin. What's worse, people, and especially lawyers, use this new understanding of human behavior to justify their clients' criminal activities allowing them to get away with murder. 

I would keep the DSM-IV-R as it is and would add a couple of new diagnoses to complement the assessment of people with certain personality disorders, especially Antisocial Personality Disorder: S.O.B. and asshole.


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## Amityville

That is very useful, your schematic diagram. 
What is the provenance of DSM-IV-R ? 
......in practice the accused (if accused of a serious crime) would either go to a secure psychiatric institution or prison depending on whether he was judged mad or bad. For society it would make no difference. The accused of a lesser crime might get off with community service, a suspended sentence, or a caution if his lawyer produced a psychiatric disorder. Maybe that is pernicious - I know the situation in the UK (or at least a few years ago I knew it) and because the prisons are full to bursting, it seems the courts are only too ready to accept mitigating factors for relatively minor offences, and then, pragmatically, the police don't bother to bring them to court. It may be, also, that we just don't like to admit to ourselves that badness/evil exists, we prefer to think there is hope for everyone and if what they have done can be explained, then rehabilitation is possible. At least in our ivory towers, we do. At the sharp end, you only need to be a victim personally to be less forgiving, and with global communication, with pictures, it is becoming impossible not to believe in evil.


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## Everness

Amityville said:
			
		

> That is very useful, your schematic diagram.
> What is the provenance of DSM-IV-R ?
> ......in practice the accused (if accused of a serious crime) would either go to a secure psychiatric institution or prison depending on whether he was judged mad or bad. For society it would make no difference. The accused of a lesser crime might get off with community service, a suspended sentence, or a caution if his lawyer produced a psychiatric disorder. Maybe that is pernicious - I know the situation in the UK (or at least a few years ago I knew it) and because the prisons are full to bursting, it seems the courts are only too ready to accept mitigating factors for relatively minor offences, and then, pragmatically, the police don't bother to bring them to court. It may be, also, that we just don't like to admit to ourselves that badness/evil exists, we prefer to think there is hope for everyone and if what they have done can be explained, then rehabilitation is possible. At least in our ivory towers, we do. At the sharp end, you only need to be a victim personally to be less forgiving, and with global communication, with pictures, it is becoming impossible not to believe in evil.



I'm glad you found my diagram useful. Here's a link to the history of the DSM.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnostic_and_Statistical_Manual_of_Mental_Disorders

You have a good point. The effectiveness of rehabilitation is questionable in general and especially when it comes, for instance, to sexual offenders. I think it's extremely important for all of us to know if someone convicted from a sexual offense moves to our neighborhood. Next, and once you find out, just move out, especially if you have kids.

Psychiatry is more art than science. We know very little about what informs our behavior and how to manage it effectively. The greatest contribution that psychiatry has made (and an extremely questionable one too due to the fact that we live in a drug addicted society) is the development of a whole range of psychotropics that only do 1 thing: manage our symptoms.


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## Amityville

I spent quite some time wandering round that link, Everness, thanks, and I might go back too.


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