# Hindi/Urdu: Use of Sanskrit/Persian pronouns



## lachesisdecima

Hi all. 

Hindi is more influenced by Sanskrit and Urdu more by Persian and Arabic. The differences become more pronounced depending on the register of the language used (I am given to understand that the colloquial registers are quite similar). 

I was wondering if in the "higher" (I know this is a loaded term, but please assume this means the highly Sanskritised or Persoarabised registers of Hindi and Urdu respectively) registers of the language, do people use Sanskrit or Persian pronouns. Perhaps in very literary texts, poems or re-enacting plays such as Mahabharatam etc?

e.g. In place of standard Hindusthani, *mera*, does anyone use the Sanskrit version, *mama*, in Hindi or the Persian or Arabic versions in Urdu (apologies for not typing them out as I do not know Persian or Arabic)?

If this is the case, are there any examples where the reverse is true? i.e. Sanskrit pronouns used in Urdu and Persoarabic ones in Hindi. 

Thanks in advance for any answers.


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## tarkshya

lachesisdecima said:


> e.g. In place of standard Hindusthani, *mera*, does anyone use the Sanskrit version, *mama*, in Hindi or the Persian or Arabic versions in Urdu (apologies for not typing them out as I do not know Persian or Arabic)?



mam (मम् ) is never used in Hindi, even using the highest register possible. It is a word purely in the domain of Sanskrit.



lachesisdecima said:


> If this is the case, are there any examples where the reverse is true? i.e. Sanskrit pronouns used in Urdu and Persoarabic ones in Hindi.



To the best of my knowledge, pronouns (such as meraa, tumhaaraa etc) are exactly similar in Hindi and Urdu.


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## Khaanabadosh

I think you can discount Arabic pronouns completely. I'm trying to think of Persian pronouns in Urdu especially in a subjective context, but can't think of any at the moment. The pronoun 'tu' is used in Persian, Urdu and Hindi as one of the ways of saying 'you' and can't really be considered as a higher register.

There are words like jaan-e-man which uses the Persian pronoun 'man' in a possessive sense i.e. my life (beloved), which is used extensively in Urdu as well as Hindi. But, I doubt it fits the definition of what you're after.


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## marrish

I can think of Persian _mā_ 'we' and _šumā_ 'pl. & polite 'you' in Urdu poetry and perhaps elsewhere, _man_ is used not so scarcely as those mentioned already. As explained above, _tū_, which in Modern Persian is pronounced _tō_, I think I get it right with the pronunciation, is shared by all three languages. It means that Urdu is interesting in this triple perspective because provided Urdu being equal with Hindi in the use of the Indic _tū_, the Persian's _tū_ usage covers more than in Hindi.

Also  Arabic _hāzā_ is probably likely to trace but it means 'this' if I'm not mistaken. 

All what I wrote above is about Urdu.


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## mundiya

marrish said:


> It means that Urdu is interesting in this triple perspective because provided Urdu being equal with Hindi in the use of the Indic _tū_, the Persian's _tū_ usage covers more than in Hindi.



I'm curious how the Persian/Urdu usage of _tū_ differs from Hindi. Can you explain or provide an example?


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## Khaanabadosh

Yes, هذا (hadha) means this (masculine). I would be interesting in seeing its usage in Urdu.

As a rule, I don't use 'tu' in everyday Urdu/Hindi speech. It's a bit uncouth, though makes sense in poetry because of constraints of meter and rhyme. I don't think it has the same connotation in Persian, even though it is considered informal.


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## Dib

marrish said:


> I can think of Persian _mā_ 'we' and _šumā_ 'pl. & polite 'you' in Urdu poetry and perhaps elsewhere,...



Could you please share some examples? That would be great!



marrish said:


> As explained above, _tū_, which in Modern Persian is pronounced _tō_, I think I get it right with the pronunciation, is shared by all three languages.



I think this statement needs slight refinement. Actually, Classical Persian تو is supposed to have a short u /tu/, which becomes Modern Iranian Persian /to/ with short o. Modern Persian long _ō_ (which still alternates with "ow") derives from Classical Persian aw/au, which never occurred in this word. On the ground, however, this makes no difference for our present purpose, because if the Persian "tu" was (theoretically) loaned into Urdu, it would become "_tū_" because Urdu doesn't really have final short vowels. This would be highly favoured also by the existence of the Indic "_tū_", spelt exactly in the same way and used in pretty much the same meaning. I say "pretty much", because the use of the pronoun may not coincide exactly in Urdu and Persian, where, e.g. parents are addressed in "to", at least in the Modern Iranian variant.



Khaanabadosh said:


> Yes, هذا (hadha) means this (masculine). I would be interesting in seeing its usage in Urdu.



Of course, it occurs in the term لهذا, "li-haazaa" (therefore), but that probably doesn't really count, as it is an Arabic expression.


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## marrish

mundiya said:


> I'm curious how the Persian/Urdu usage of _tū_ differs from Hindi. Can you explain or provide an example?


_tū_ forms izaafat constructions in Persian/Urdu.
_naxl-e-sham3 astii o dar shu3lah do-resha-‘e-tuu
3aaqibat soz buvad saaya-‘e-andesha-‘e-tuu

tuu nah miT jaa’e gaa iiraan ke miT jaane se
nasha-‘e-mae ko ta3alluq nahiiN paimaane se_
(Iqbal, jawaab-e-shikwah)





Khaanabadosh said:


> Yes, هذا (hadha) means this (masculine). I would be interesting in seeing its usage in Urdu.


In Arabic expressions like Dib said (there are many more), but also e.g. on the Pakistani rupee banknotes حامِل ہٰذا کو مطالبہ پر ادا کریگا. _Haamil-e-haazaa ko mutaalabah par adaa karegaa_.


Dib said:


> Could you please share some examples? That would be great!


Uhm, first I have to look for some. Certainly in at least two expressions I remember, _hamah-shumaa_ and _maa-o-shumaa_.

Thanks for the clarification about tū in Persian, it was necessary. I was just wondering whether it was long or short in the Tehrani Persian from memory and made a wrong choice.


But I want to stress for the OP that I am quite certain all these pronouns aren't used in place of I, you, he etc. in sentences.

I can remember that there is a word in Hindi तव _tava_ in use, but can't recall more.


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## mundiya

lachesisdecima said:


> Hi all.
> 
> Hindi is more influenced by Sanskrit and Urdu more by Persian and Arabic. The differences become more pronounced depending on the register of the language used (I am given to understand that the colloquial registers are quite similar).
> 
> I was wondering if in the "higher" (I know this is a loaded term, but please assume this means the highly Sanskritised or Persoarabised registers of Hindi and Urdu respectively) registers of the language, do people use Sanskrit or Persian pronouns. Perhaps in very literary texts, poems or re-enacting plays such as Mahabharatam etc?
> 
> e.g. In place of standard Hindusthani, *mera*, does anyone use the Sanskrit version, *mama*, in Hindi or the Persian or Arabic versions in Urdu (apologies for not typing them out as I do not know Persian or Arabic)?
> 
> If this is the case, are there any examples where the reverse is true? i.e. Sanskrit pronouns used in Urdu and Persoarabic ones in Hindi.
> 
> Thanks in advance for any answers.



mama, tava, aham, and other Sanskrit pronouns are used in Hindi, mainly in certain expressions and poetic verses, not in everyday communication. Here is an example from Surdas.

महाराजा तुम तो ही साध
मम कन्या ते भयो अपराध

mahaaraajaa tum(a) to hii saadh(a)
mam(a) kanyaa te bhayo ap(a)raadh(a)

It's unknown whether the schwa (a) was pronounced at the time of Surdas.

There is also another (non-pronoun) usage of aham, with the meaning of ego.


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## Alfaaz

As stated by forum members in the previous posts, apart from set expressions, _izaafats_, and literary uses, Persian or Arabic pronouns would most likely not be used to replace _maiN, aap, etc._ in colloquial or even formal Urdu speech! 

Here are a few examples of _maa, man, and tu_ from literature: 
جو تو سمجھے تو آزادی ہے پوشیدہ محبّت میں
غلامی ہے اسیر امتیاز *ما و من* رہنا

از تصویر درد : علامہ اقبال

پھر سے "*تو* کون ہے *میں* کون ہوں" آپس میں سوال
پھر وہی سوچ میان *من و تو* پھیلی ہے

احمد فراز​A few more expressions with ہذا - _haazaa_: مع ہذا، علیٰ ہذا، علیٰ ہذا القیاس


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## Khaanabadosh

A few more expressions with ہذا - _haazaa_: مع ہذا، علیٰ ہذا، علیٰ ہذا القیاس

Alfaaz Sahab, this one can't really be classified as Urdu.


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## marrish

mundiya said:


> mama, tava, aham, and other Sanskrit pronouns are used in Hindi, mainly in certain expressions and poetic verses, not in everyday communication. Here is an example from Surdas.
> 
> महाराजा तुम तो ही साध
> मम कन्या ते भयो अपराध
> 
> mahaaraajaa tum(a) to hii saadh(a)
> mam(a) kanyaa te bhayo ap(a)raadh(a)
> 
> It's unknown whether the schwa (a) was pronounced at the time of Surdas.
> 
> There is also another (non-pronoun) usage of aham, with the meaning of ego.


Something modern, from Gitika by Suryakant Tripathi "Nirala". You thought about these schwas at the time of Surdas, I am curious about them in this poem. I left all a's so please do indicate how this should be actually read:

बन्दूँ, पद सुंदर तव, baNduuN, pada sundara tava,
छंद नवल स्वर-गौरव । chhaNda navala svara-gaurava/

जननि, जनक-जननि-जननि,
जन्मभूमि-भाषे! janani, janaka-janani-janani, janma-bhuumi-bhaaShe!
जागो, नव अम्बर-भर,
ज्योतिस्तर-वासे ! jaago, nava ambar-bhar, jyotistara-vaase!
उठे स्वरोर्मियों-मुखर
दिककुमारिका-पिक-रव । uThe svarormiyoN-mukhara, dikakukmaarikaa-pika-rava/


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## marrish

marrish said:


> But I want to stress for the OP that I am quite certain all these pronouns aren't used in place of I, you, he etc. in sentences.





mundiya said:


> mama, tava, aham, and other Sanskrit pronouns are used in Hindi, mainly in certain expressions and poetic verses, not in everyday communication.





Alfaaz said:


> As stated by forum members in the previous posts, apart from set expressions, _izaafats_, and literary uses, Persian or Arabic pronouns would most likely not be used to replace _maiN, aap, etc._ in colloquial or even formal Urdu speech!


I think we are saying the same thing (replace Persian by Sanskrit or otherwise).


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## lachesisdecima

mundiya said:


> mama, tava, aham, and other Sanskrit pronouns are used in Hindi, mainly in certain expressions and poetic verses, not in everyday communication. Here is an example from Surdas.
> 
> महाराजा तुम तो ही साध
> मम कन्या ते भयो अपराध
> 
> mahaaraajaa tum(a) to hii saadh(a)
> mam(a) kanyaa te bhayo ap(a)raadh(a)
> 
> It's unknown whether the schwa (a) was pronounced at the time of Surdas.
> 
> There is also another (non-pronoun) usage of aham, with the meaning of ego.



This is what I wanted to know. So, how does Hindi assimilate the word aham? I believe the word is written as अहम् in Sanskrit with a virama. I do not think the use of the explicit virama is allowed in Hindi. So, how would Hindi deal with this? Would it just write it as, "ahama" and delete the final schwa or write it in some other fashion.


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## marrish

Khaanabadosh said:


> A few more expressions with ہذا - _haazaa_: مع ہذا، علیٰ ہذا، علیٰ ہذا القیاس
> 
> Alfaaz Sahab, this one can't really be classified as Urdu.


If we look at these words from the perspective of _haazaa_, whether it is used in Urdu as a pronoun, then we indeed can say that these are Arabic expressions and _haazaa_ is part of them. The fact that that _haazaa_ here occurs in Arabic expressions which are used in Urdu may disqualify these cases (I don't know how it should be classified), but the above expressions are Urdu (as _lihaazaa_ is) and their Arabic pedigree doesn't influence this fact.


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## marrish

lachesisdecima said:


> This is what I wanted to know. So, how does Hindi assimilate the word aham? I believe the word is written as अहम् in Sanskrit with a virama. I do not think the use of the explicit virama is allowed in Hindi. So, how would Hindi deal with this? Would it just write it as, "ahama" and delete the final schwa or write it in some other fashion.


I believe the word is written अहं in Hindi.
About this, a piece of advice from Mr. Qamar Waheed Naqvi from his FB page:
अहं और अहम
मैंने पाया है कि "अहं" और "अहम" को लेकर लोगों में काफी भ्रम है. "अहं" का अर्थ होता है EGO और "अहम" का मतलब होता है महत्वपूर्ण यानी IMPORTANT . "अहं" से बनता है अहंकार. "अहं" को लिखते समय हमेशा "ह" पर अनुस्वार लगायें. लेकिन जब महत्वपूर्ण के अर्थ को व्यक्त करना हो तो लिखें "अहम". maiNne paayaa hai ki "ahaM" aur "aham" ko lekar logoN meN kaafii bhram hai. "ahaM" kaa arth hotaa hai EGO aur "aham" kaa matlab hotaa hai mahattvpuurNR yaanii IMPORTANT. "ahaM" se bantaa hai ahaMkaar. "ahaM" ko likhte samay hameshaa "ha" par anusvaar lagaayeN. lekin jab mahattvpuurNR ke arth ko vyakt karnaa ho to likheN "aham".
इसके दो उदाहरण देखें: 
१. किसी के “अहं” को ठेस पहुंचाना अच्छा नहीं है.
२. सरकार ने “अहम” फ़ैसला किया है. (यानी सरकार ने महत्वपूर्ण फ़ैसला किया है).
iske do udaaharaNR dekheN:
1. kisii ke "ahaM" ko Thes pahuNchaanaa achchhaa nahiiN hai.
2. sarkaar ne "aham" faisalaa kiyaa hai. (yaanii sarkaar ne mahattvpuurNR faisalaa kiyaa hai).
-----
"अहम" अरबी भाषा का शब्द है. [...] संस्कृत में "अहं" का अर्थ "मैं" भी होता है. "इगो" (EGO) और "घमंड" भी. 
इसे बिलकुल शुद्ध लिखना हो तो "अहम्" लिखा जायेगा यानी "म" के नीचे हलन्त लगेगा, लेकिन बेहतर होगा कि हिन्दी के रोज़मर्रा के इस्तेमाल में "अहं" ही लिखें ताकि सभी को समझने में आसानी हो और लोग "अहम" (महत्वपूर्ण) और "अहम्" (अहं) में कन्फ्यूज़ न हों.
"aham" arbii bhaaShaa kaa shabd hai. [...] saNskr.t meN "ahaM" kaa arth "maiN" bhii hotaa hai. (EGO) aur "ghamaND" bhii.
ise bilkul shuddh likhnaa ho to "aham_" likhaa jaayegaa yaanii "ma" ke niiche halant lagegaa, lekin behtar hogaa ki hindii ke rozmarraa ke istemaal meN "ahaM" hii likheN taaki sabhii ko samajhne meN aasaanii ho aur log "aham" (mahattvpuuNR) aur "aham_" (ahaM) meN confuse na hoN.

If you don't understand the above, please let me know. I'll provide you with a translation. If you can understand it but have some specific questions, don't hesitate to open a new thread.


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## marrish

marrish said:


> Dib said:
> 
> 
> 
> Could you please share some examples? That would be great!
> 
> 
> 
> Uhm, first I have to look for some. Certainly in at least two expressions I remember, _hamah-shumaa_ and _maa-o-shumaa_.
Click to expand...

I've got here a contemporary paragraph:


> eet^aa-e-jalee ke a'ib hone meN koyee iKhtilaaf naheeN hai. is kaa tark laazim hai. asaatiZah kaa kalaam is a'ib se baRee Had tak paaknaz^ar aataa hai. ph`ir bh`ee ikkaa-dukkaa micaal asaatiZah ke kalaammeN bh`ee mil jaatee hai. is :bida't: kaa jawaaz agar in asaatiZah ke :shaKhSee ijtihaad: ko maan bh`ee liyaa jaaYe to bh`ee yeh a'ib hee kehlaaYe gaa. un kee Had tak agar aap is ko qubool kar leN to bh`ee:  hamaa-shumaa: ko yeh Haq HaaSil naheeN ho gaa aur is a'ib kaa tarkun par waajib ho gaa.



Can Persian _banda_ be qualified as a pronoun? Urdu uses it plenty.


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## Dib

marrish said:


> I've got here a contemporary paragraph:
> 
> 
> 
> eet^aa-e-jalee ke a'ib hone meN koyee iKhtilaaf naheeN hai. is kaa tark laazim hai. asaatiZah kaa kalaam is a'ib se baRee Had tak paaknaz^ar aataa hai. ph`ir bh`ee ikkaa-dukkaa micaal asaatiZah ke kalaammeN bh`ee mil jaatee hai. is :bida't: kaa jawaaz agar in asaatiZah ke :shaKhSee ijtihaad: ko maan bh`ee liyaa jaaYe to bh`ee yeh a'ib hee kehlaaYe gaa. un kee Had tak agar aap is ko qubool kar leN to bh`ee: hamaa-shumaa: ko yeh Haq HaaSil naheeN ho gaa aur is a'ib kaa tarkun par waajib ho gaa.
Click to expand...


Nice! Thank you.



> Can Persian _banda_ be qualified as a pronoun? Urdu uses it plenty.



Hm. Fence-sitter.


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