# they called comrade Colonel's mother a dog



## Kahless

How do you pronounce Tkachenko? 

Also, how would you translate into Russian.
they called comrade Colonel's mother a dog!
(Above doesn't really need context, it is a taunt before a battle)

Thanx


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## Binario

Oh, my God! Are you serious? This frase is a "taunt before battle"? Can't imagine that-unless that's a battle of the mentally retarded. Right, it really doesn't need context, it would sound ridiculous in any context, anyway.
Tkachenko is pronounced Tkah-chen-koh, with the stress on the second syllable. By the way, it's not a Russian name, but Ukrainian. Judging by this peculiar battlecry, that would hardly matter for the author.


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## Kahless

just some American trash talk before a contest. Actually it had a larger pupose. The one hurling the insult was trying to determine if the Soviet Colonel or his son was on the battlefield that particular day.

I thought perhaps some one would take this particualr phrase translation request as insulting. It was not meant to be. It is just some pre battle talk between two soldiers.

And I was aware it was Ukrainian.


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## Maroseika

Kahless said:


> How do you pronounce Tkachenko?
> 
> 
> 
> Tkachenka
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, how would you translate into Russian.
> they called comrade Colonel's mother a dog!
> (Above doesn't really need context, it is a taunt before a battle)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Они назвали мать [товарища] полковника сукой!
> However, in the colloquial speech "comrade" is not used in the 3rd person.
Click to expand...


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## papillon

Maroseika said:


> Они назвали мать полковника сукой!


I would say:
Они мать полковника сукой сукой обозвали!
but this is only my stylistic preference.


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## Q-cumber

papillon said:


> I would say:
> Они мать полковника *сукой сукой* обозвали!
> but this is only my stylistic preference.



Thus they called her a bitch twice ... just to be on the safe side.


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## Kahless

Thanx guys, I thought when I threew that one out there I may offfend someone, but Papiliion and Q Cumber showed we can have a sense of humor about such things.


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## sargio

Kahless said:


> How do you pronounce Tkachenko?



I agree with Binario, but not with  Maroseika.  It sounds like:

Tkah-chen-koh, ( oh  == o in gone )


I think Tkachenka is not right, cause as Binario mentioned, it's a Ukrainian lastname.
So it should be "O" in the end of the word.


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## papillon

Q-cumber said:


> Thus they called her a bitch twice ... just to be on the safe side.


 Pre-battle trash talk on Mars could get pretty nasty at times...



sargio said:


> I think Tkachenka is not right, cause as Binario mentioned, it's a Ukrainian lastname.
> So it should be "O" in the end of the word.


That's a fair point. Following the Ukrainian pronunciation, yes, it's an oh. However, in the context of the presumably Russian-speaking Mars-based regiment of the Soviet army, the Russian pronunciation of this surname may be more relevant. Thus, the unstressed o is reduced to a neutral shwa sound, which we perceive as being closer to a than to o. Kahless will have to decide this depending on the context.


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## sargio

papillon said:


> That's a fair point. Following the Ukrainian pronunciation, yes, it's an oh. However, in the context of the presumably Russian-speaking Mars-based regiment of the Soviet army, the Russian pronunciation of this surname may be more relevant. Thus, the unstressed o is reduced to a neutral shwa sound, which we perceive as being closer to a than to o. Kahless will have to decide this depending on the context.



I ve heard a lot of  Ukraninan lastnames, but never heard them pronouncing  as "A".
Maybe, in another regions of Russia it sounds like "A", but  it sounds like "O" here. 
Another point for O. Have you ever heard Stepnenko as  Stepnenka ? (even on TV)

Anyway, it's just my imho.


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## papillon

sargio said:


> I've heard a lot of  Ukraninan lastnames, but never heard them pronouncing  as "A".
> Maybe, in another regions of Russia it sounds like "A", but  it sounds like "O" here.
> Another point for O. Have you ever heard Stepnenko as  Stepnenka ? (even on TV)


 Let's wait for the phonetics experts to settle this, but in the meantime here are a couple of notes. In terms of phonetical denomination, the sound corresponding the the last vowel is *neither* [a] *nor* [o], at least in standard Russian. It's a neutral sound denoted as [ə] (_shwa_). It's somewehere "in between" a and o. The phenomenon is unrelated to the word being a Ukrainian surname, the sound would be the same in a perfectly Russian word облако [ˈobləkə].
Having said that, the [ə] sound is usually perceived as being closer to [a] than to [o] - just look at the common way to misspell words containing unstressed o: пасматри какая харошая пагода. The misspelling doesn't necessarily speaks of the "аканье", and is quite frequent among children everywhere.


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## Etcetera

papillon said:


> Having said that, the [ə] sound is usually perceived as being closer to [a] than to [o] - just look at the common way to misspell words containing unstressed o: пасматри какая харошая пагода. The misspelling doesn't necessarily speaks of the "аканье", and is quite frequent among children everywhere.


A good point. 

Although I wold argue that it's a frequent mistake among children _everywhere. _When after primary school I moved to Moscow region and went to a seconary school there, I was just shocked by the popularity of this mistake - I couldn't think it was possible at all.


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## sargio

papillon said:


> Let's wait for the phonetics experts to settle this, but in the meantime here are a couple of notes. In terms of phonetical denomination, the sound corresponding the the last vowel is *neither* [a] *nor* [o], at least in standard Russian. It's a neutral sound denoted as [ə] (_shwa_). It's somewehere "in between" a and o. The phenomenon is unrelated to the word being a Ukrainian surname, the sound would be the same in a perfectly Russian word облако [ˈobləkə].
> Having said that, the [ə] sound is usually perceived as being closer to [a] than to [o] - just look at the common way to misspell words containing unstressed o: пасматри какая харошая пагода. The misspelling doesn't necessarily speaks of the "аканье", and is quite frequent among children everywhere.



2 papillon

I know but your notes aren't related to last letter.
So Tkachenko should be Tkachenko not TkachenkA, as Klichko (Ukrainian boxer) should be Klichko not KilickA. 
Klichko spelled as  KilickA  it's nonsense for me.
I ve tried to reference to famous lastname so maybe you ve heard it before (on TV or anywhere else).


2 papillon and Etcetera
As for "аканье". There is a another reason for this (besides just common cases ),  I mean slang.
It used to be cool among Russian  teenagers to misspell words. It's some kind of subculter. 
So they used to spell (and write)  "автор"  as "афтар" (with hard "Ф" and "A")


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## Ptak

sargio said:


> So Tkachenko should be Tkachenko not TkachenkA, as Klichko (Ukrainian boxer) should be Klichko not KilickA.
> Klichko spelled as KilickA it's nonsense for me.


Of course *KilickA* instead of *KlichkO* is nonsense! Because the last syllable of the word is stressed! In Tkachenko the second syllable is stressed, and not the ending! The "-ko" in Tkachenko is not stressed, that's why it's pronounced -*ka (TkachEnka)*!
So don't cite "Кличко" as an example for pronounciation the ending in Tkachenko.



sargio said:


> So they used to spell (and write) "автор" as "афтар" (with hard "Ф" and "A")


Aren't "spell" and "write" the same?

What is _hard "Ф"_? Is there a "soft Ф"? I don't know what it is.
And, by the way, they spell аффтар, with two ф.


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## sargio

Ptak said:


> Of course *KilickA* instead of *KlichkO* is nonsense! Because the last syllable of the word is stressed! In Tkachenko the second syllable is stressed, and not the ending! The "-ko" in Tkachenko is not stressed, that's why it's pronounced -*ka (TkachEnka)*!
> So don't cite "Кличко" as an example for pronounciation the ending in Tkachenko.
> .


Ok. Maybe there is a rule. But I ve never heard. 
I ve asked a lot of  people and all of them ve said for "O". 
Also I ve remembered that there was a guy at school with lastname "Miranenko." And both teachers and  the students called him MiranenkO not MiranenkA.  Also our russians teacher did. And I bet , she knew all Russian rules.  

Anyway, there could be such rule but most of people 
It's like with  "средствА" .The most of  people  say "срЕдства ", but not "средствА."
But the last one is right one.





			
				Ptak;4246118
Aren't "spell" and "write" the same?
 
What is [I said:
			
		

> hard "Ф"[/i]? Is there a "soft Ф"? I don't know what it is.
> And, by the way, they spell аффтар, with two ф.


Spell sometimes means to say word with letter after  letter. 
You're right, double "Ф".   I ve been trying to say that "A" and "Ф" are explicit (accurate)
expressed.    (Sorry, if I ve confused you.)


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## Kahless

Actually, I was confused about the first part of the name. *Tka* chen ko. English doesn't have any words that start with Tk.

Thanx


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## papillon

Kahless said:


> Actually, I was confused about the first part of the name. *Tka* chen ko. English doesn't have any words that start with Tk.


 *kahless*, sorry that your thread has been partially highjacked. Answering your question (for a change): both T and k are pronounced. Say the name Atkins. Then try to pronounce it A-tkins (I know, it may take practice), then remove the initial A. You get Tk cluster.





sargio said:


> So Tkachenko should be Tkachenko not TkachenkA, as Klichko (Ukrainian boxer) should be Klichko not KilickA.
> Klichko *spelled* as  KilickA  it's nonsense for me.


 You are mixing in your post no less than three different issues:

1. The spelling using Latin alphabet: it is Tkachenk*o*, with an o. The spelling/transliteration of last names is usually done by convention, an o is converted into an o. This is what this guy would have in his passport.

2. The actual pronunciation: [tkaʧenkə].
3. A compromise to use the normal (non IPA) Latin alphabet to _aproximate_ the actual pronunciation. This is what you would do to describe the sound to a student not familiar with the IPA system. As I said before, most commonly the ə sound is _perceived_ as being _closer_ to a than to o.


sargio said:


> Also I ve remembered that there was a guy at school with lastname "Miranenko." And both teachers and the students called him MiranenkO not MiranenkA. Also our russians teacher did. And I bet , she knew all Russian rules.


 Interesting, this is probably region-dependent. If you come from an area where a "neutral" Russian is spoken, they wouldn't say neither MiranenkO, nor MiranenkA, but something in between: Moranenkə.


sargio said:


> 2 papillon and Etcetera
> As for "аканье". There is a another reason for this (besides just common cases ),  I mean slang. It used to be cool among Russian  teenagers to misspell words. It's some kind of subculter. So they used to spell (and write)  "автор"  as "афтар" (with hard "Ф" and "A")


 I used to have my Russian language grades lowered for making this mistake. This was way way way before any such teenager-related phenomenon developed.


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## Maroseika

sargio said:


> It's like with "средствА" .The most of people say "срЕдства ", but not "средствА."
> But the last one is right one.


Excuse me, do you mean the last syllable is stressed?


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## Ptak

sargio said:


> Ok. Maybe there is a rule. But I ve never heard.


Sorry, but I can't beleave you here. Just put the TV set on and you'll hear right now: [Ткаченк*а*], [Матвиенк*а*], [Мироненк*а*], [Тимошенк*а*] and so on.



sargio said:


> I ve asked a lot of people and all of them ve said for "O".


Very strange argument. Let's don't say such things. It's like demagogy. If these people have opinions, let's them come here and post their opinions here then.



sargio said:


> Also I ve remembered that there was a guy at school with lastname "Miranenko." And both teachers and the students called him MiranenkO not MiranenkA. Also our russians teacher did. And I bet , she knew all Russian rules.


Are you from Kostroma, or Yaroslavl, or some town of that region?
Only there I've heard peolpe pronounced the _*unstressed O*_ exactly as *O*.



sargio said:


> It's like with "средствА" .The most of people say "срЕдства", but not "средствА."
> But the last one is right one.


Those people are absolutely right, because the right variant is "*срЕдства*":
http://dic.gramota.ru/search.php?word=%F1%F0%E5%E4%F1%F2%E2%E0&all=x



sargio said:


> Spell sometimes means to say word with letter after letter.


If "spell" means in your post "to say word with letter after letter", so I don't find any extraordinary in such pronunciation: not only teenagers say it so. It's just standart pronunciation for this word: [афтар].


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## Q-cumber

Ptak said:


> Those people are absolutely right, because the right variant is "*срЕдства*":
> http://dic.gramota.ru/search.php?word=%F1%F0%E5%E4%F1%F2%E2%E0&all=x



Sure thing... *средства* sounds pretty illiterate to me.


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## sargio

Ptak said:


> Sorry, but I can't beleave you here. Just put the TV set on and you'll hear right now: [Ткаченк*а*], [Матвиенк*а*], [Мироненк*а*], [Тимошенк*а*] and so on.
> 
> 
> Very strange argument. Let's don't say such things. It's like demagogy. If these people have opinions, let's them come here and post their opinions here then.


Ok. You are right. I should be objective.

gramma.ru/SPR/?id=5.1&fnd=1&fl=1&page=775&PHPSESSID=bb7efa3da584ca747c2e9e938ecf7869

Вопрос о постановке ударения в фамилиях не имеет смысла задавать в форме "как правильно?". Ибо ударение в нашем языке и вообще-то подвижное, а уж в том, что касается имен собственных, речь может идти скорее о традиции, нежели о норме. В украинских по происхождению фамилиях с патронимическим суффиксом -енко ударение обычно падает на третий слог от конца (АндрЮщенко, ГерАщенко, ТИщенко и т. п.). Однако существует тенденция к сдвижке ударения на последний слог - особенно в русском произношении (ЕвтушЕнко, ТимошЕнко и т. п.).

So,  Let's say it's just matter of taste.



Ptak said:


> Are you from Kostroma, or Yaroslavl, or some town of that region?
> Only there I've heard peolpe pronounced the _*unstressed O*_ exactly as *O*.


No, I'm from NW. 



Ptak said:


> Those people are absolutely right, because the right variant is "*срЕдства*":
> dic.gramota.ru/search.php?word=%F1%F0%E5%E4%F1%F2%E2%E0&all=x


Shame on me. My fault. You are absouletly right. I ve mixed up something. 



Ptak said:


> If "spell" means in your post "to say word with letter after letter", so I don't find any extraordinary in such pronunciation: not only teenagers say it so. It's just standart pronunciation for this word: [афтар].


I ve been talking about "аканье".


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## Ptak

sargio said:


> gramma.ru/SPR/?id=5.1&fnd=1&fl=1&page=775&PHPSESSID=bb7efa3da584ca747c2e9e938ecf7869
> 
> Вопрос о постановке ударения в фамилиях не имеет смысла задавать в форме "как правильно?". Ибо ударение в нашем языке и вообще-то подвижное, а уж в том, что касается имен собственных, речь может идти скорее о традиции, нежели о норме. В украинских по происхождению фамилиях с патронимическим суффиксом -енко ударение обычно падает на третий слог от конца (АндрЮщенко, ГерАщенко, ТИщенко и т. п.). Однако существует тенденция к сдвижке ударения на последний слог - особенно в русском произношении (ЕвтушЕнко, ТимошЕнко и т. п.).
> 
> So, Let's say it's just matter of taste.


 
Sorry, but this has NOTHING to do with pronunciation the ending "-ko"!
Yes, Соколенко can be СоколЕнко OR СокОленко, but never СоколенкО! Anyway, if the ending -ko is unstressed, it should be pronounced -ka. And it's not just matter of taste.



sargio said:


> I ve been talking about "аканье".


I still don't understand what "аканье" has to do with the word "автор".
Or maybe you pronounce it "*овтор*"?..........


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## Maroseika

sargio said:


> I ve been talking about "аканье".


You see, аканье has nothing to do with the standard Russian way to pronounce unstressed "o" as "a" (or better say shva), as well as converting of unstressed "e" into "и" has nothing to do with the so-called "*и*канье" .


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## sargio

Ptak said:


> Sorry, but this has NOTHING to do with pronunciation the ending "-ko"!
> Yes, Соколенко can be СоколЕнко OR СокОленко, but never СоколенкО! Anyway, if the ending -ko is unstressed, it should be pronounced -ka. And it's not just matter of taste.



 I bet I ve heard Геращенко as "О" on broadcast. Anyway I won't  prove my opinion to you and me until I find link with  a recorded TV program related to this kind of lastnames. 



Ptak said:


> I still don't understand what "аканье" has to do with the word "автор".
> Or maybe you pronounce it "*овтор*"?..........



No. Somebody's said above  about "akанье" among  the students . So I thought maybe it was related to subculter pronounce. Nothing more.


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## Ptak

sargio said:


> I bet I ve heard Геращенко as "О" on broadcast.


There is nothing strange in it. If a person is from region where they say it so, why can't he appear on television? But it's not the standart at all.


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## papillon

sargio said:


> I bet I've heard Геращенко as "О" on broadcast.


 What about words like облако and облaчко? What would you say is the last sound?


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## sargio

Ptak said:


> There is nothing strange in it. If a person is from region where they say it so, why can't he appear on television? But it's not the standart at all.



I'm talking about Виктор Геращенко and russian TV.
Guide to your rules, it should sound like "ГеращEнкA", shouldn't it?
As  for the standarts I ve been looking around but still can't find any rules about lastnames. 
So it seems like there's no the ones.


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## sargio

papillon said:


> What about words like облако and облaчко? What would you say is the last sound?



*о*блакО  and *о*блачкО.  (marked bold is accent )

I can't see any difference with pronounce облако and облaчко. Why should they differ?


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## Maroseika

sargio said:


> I'm talking about Виктор Геращенко and russian TV.
> Guide to your rules, it should sound like "ГеращEнкA", shouldn't it?
> As for the standarts I ve been looking around but still can't find any rules about lastnames.
> So it seems like there's no the ones.


ГеращEнкA is impossible, only [Гир*а*щенка].


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## papillon

sargio said:


> *о*блакО  and *о*блачкО.  (marked bold is accent )


 I see. Very interesting. Thanks.


sargio said:


> I can't see any difference with pronounce облако and облaчко. _Why should they differ_?


They shouldn't, those were the two words that came to my mind.

You see, according to the phonetics of the Russian language, the last sound in _oblako _is the same neutral _shwa_ and is commonly given as -a when describing the pronunciation to foreigners.

I have two possible explanation for our discrepancy:
1. You come from a region where the unstressed o is pronounced as an [o]. This is not standard, but one of the regional variations of the Russian language.
_
2. _The second explanation has to do with human psychology. When hearing a word, we often mentalize or imagine it's spelling. So when hearing _oblako_ and imagining the last letter - o - we think that we indeed hear an [o], when in fact the sound may be closer to an [a].

Anyway, at this point this is just speculation on my part.


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## Ptak

sargio said:


> I'm talking about Виктор Геращенко and russian TV.


Yes, I understood it. I was talking about Виктор Геращенко and russian TV too. So what?



sargio said:


> Guide to your rules, it should sound like "ГеращEнкA", shouldn't it?


"My" rules?  
Well, according to Russian phonetics rules, it should sound like "Гер*а*щенка", or rather [Гир*а*щинка]. Where did you read that I said it should be "Геращ*E*нкA"???




sargio said:


> I ve been looking around but still can't find any rules about lastnames.





sargio said:


> So it seems like there's no the ones.


Oh my God! What for do you need "rules about lastnames"?? 
There are general rules for Russian pronunciation, so lastnames belong to other Russian words! There is no need for write special rule for lastnames!


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## papillon

Maroseika said:


> ГеращEнкA is impossible, only [Гир*а*щенка].


 Unless he decides that he is actually [Гирaщ*e*нка], i.e.  that his last name is Геращ*е*нко. That aside, wouldn't it be [Гир*а*щинка]?


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## sargio

Ptak said:


> Yes, I understood it. I was talking about Виктор Геращенко and russian TV too. So what?


Leave it. You hear Гир*а*щенка and I hear Гер*а*щенко. I ll try to find a recording and then we ask others. 



Ptak said:


> "My" rules?
> Well, according to Russian phonetics rules, it should sound like "Гер*а*щенка", or rather [Гир*а*щинка]. Where did you read that I said it should be "Геращ*E*нкA"???


I mean "yours" talking about applying common rules to ukranian lastnames 
My fault again. I ve misspelled. Sure, Гер*а*щенко.




Ptak said:


> Oh my God! What for do you need "rules about lastnames"??
> There are general rules for Russian pronunciation, so lastnames belong to other Russian words! There is no need for write special rule for lastnames!


I' m going crazy 
Cause they are not russians!
Ok. I ve posted the article about lastnames above. No rules can be applyed to accent. I think, only owner of lastname could say how should  his  lastname sound like wih A or O ). 
As you ve said on ukranian it's "O". So my opinion it should be "O" in Russian too.

Why суши not cycи?

Maybe , you are right. But I can't still see any objective reasons to pronaunce A in  Ukranian lastnames.


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## sargio

papillon said:


> I see. Very interesting. Thanks.
> 
> They shouldn't, those were the two words that came to my mind.
> 
> You see, according to the phonetics of the Russian language, the last sound in _oblako _is the same neutral _shwa_ and is commonly given as -a when describing the pronunciation to foreigners.
> 
> I have two possible explanation for our discrepancy:
> 1. You come from a region where the unstressed o is pronounced as an [o]. This is not standard, but one of the regional variations of the Russian language.
> _
> 2. _The second explanation has to do with human psychology. When hearing a word, we often mentalize or imagine it's spelling. So when hearing _oblako_ and imagining the last letter - o - we think that we indeed hear an [o], when in fact the sound may be closer to an [a].
> 
> Anyway, at this point this is just speculation on my part.



I think,  you are right.  Some sounds are human specific ,maybe , just in theirs minds. 
It's very hard to explain sounds especially if they are country specific.  So that's why I'm trying to refer to recordings and everybody will be able to decide should it be "A" or "O".

And how do you hear last "o" in thos words? 
We should also ask Ptak  anout clouds as  I see he's big fan of "A".  
Mabye, cause it's fist letter of  the alphabet.


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## papillon

sargio said:


> ...But I can't still see any objective reasons to pronaunce A in  Ukranian lastnames.


 This is not so much about Ukrainian last names, as a general phenomenon of pronunciation of unstressed o.:

Focusing *only* on the last vowel:

Геращенкə, облакə, правə, делə, Сидоренкə, сколькə, плохə, Тимошенкə, вернə, больнə, Ющенкə, Степаненкə, Костенкə, яблокə, Юхненкə, болотə, чего-тə, несколькə.


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## Ptak

sargio said:


> Leave it. You hear Гир*а*щенка and I hear Гер*а*щенко. I ll try to find a recording and then we ask others.


I just said that every person can appear on television and say the name Геращенко to the camera. Even if the person is from region where they pronounce the unstressed O as O. You can find a recording or not, but there is nothing strange in it. But you can just put Russian TV or radio on and hear all these -ko in lastnames as *ka*.



sargio said:


> I' m going crazy
> Cause they are not russians!


They are not Russians semantically. But they are used in Russian language. And many Russians have such surnames. If the name *Shakespaere* is not Russian, so we have to pronounce ot like _Ш*е*йскпиа_ and not _Шексп*и*р_?



sargio said:


> Ok. I ve posted the article about lastnames above. No rules can be applyed to accent. I think, only owner of lastname could say how should his lastname sound like wih A or O ).


That's not an article. It's just a question from some internet user to a Russian language "inquiry service" and a brief answer. But it's not said there that *there are no rules*. It's just said the the accent can be vary. But Гер*а*щенко can't be _Геращенк*о*_ and Кличк*о* can't be _Кл*и*чко_, for example.



sargio said:


> As you ve said on ukranian it's "O".


I'm afraid I didn't say anything about Ukranian language or Ukranian O.



sargio said:


> So my opinion it should be "O" in Russian too.


Pronounce then English names in Russian speech exactly like they are pronounced in English. Try with Шекспир, for a start.



> Maybe , you are right. But I can't still see any objective reasons to pronaunce A in Ukranian lastnames.


Russian pronunciation rules. Sorry, but are you really Russian?



sargio said:


> And how do you hear last "o" in thos words?
> We should also ask Ptak anout clouds as I see he's big fan of "A".


I'm not "fan" of anything.
Unstressed O is just A (i.e. shwa) in Russian.

By the way, I'm "she". See my profile.


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## papillon

sargio said:


> So that's why I'm trying to refer to recordings and everybody will be able to decide should it be "A" or "O".
> 
> And how do you hear last "o" in those words?


 If it is unstressed, I hear it exactly the same as the last -a. I don't think recordings would help too much in this discussion, at least for the native speakers, unless you make a recording of yourself to see the pronunciation on an individual basis. We all _know_ what the sound is, we just can't agree how to transcribe it. This is a limitation of trying to represent the complexity of sound with 33 or so letters. This is why the IPA system was  created.

If you ask me: do you hear an A or an O, I will say that I hear an ə. Then, of course, if I have to decide if it's closer to A or O, I choose A.


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## sargio

papillon said:


> If it is unstressed, I hear it exactly the same as the last -a. I don't think recordings would help too much in this discussion, at least for the native speakers, unless you make a recording of yourself to see the pronunciation on an individual basis. We all _know_ what the sound is, we just can't agree how to transcribe it. This is a limitation of trying to represent the complexity of sound with 33 or so letters. This is why the IPA system was  created.
> 
> If you ask me: do you hear an A or an O, I will say that I hear an ə. Then, of course, if I have to decide if it's closer to A or O, I choose A.


I ve asked about "облако".
so облакА ? 
(but if it's closer to A then you can simply mix up it with clouds (plural instead of to be the singular) )


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## papillon

sargio said:


> I ve asked about "облако".
> so облакА ?
> (but if it's closer to A then you can simply mix up it with clouds (plural instead of to be the singular) )


 Ah, but the stress is singular and plural falls on different syllables.


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## sargio

Ptak said:


> I just said that every person can appear on television and say the name Геращенко to the camera. Even if the person is from region where they pronounce the unstressed O as O. You can find a recording or not, but there is nothing strange in it. But you can just put Russian TV or radio on and hear all these -ko in lastnames as *ka*.


That's why I ve been talking about TV. I ve heard it many times as "O".  But now  I'm completly unsure. 



Ptak said:


> They are not Russians semantically. But they are used in Russian language. And many Russians have such surnames. If the name *Shakespaere* is not Russian, so we have to pronounce ot like _Ш*е*йскпиа_ and not _Шексп*и*р_?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ptak said:
> 
> 
> 
> You'r right but that's is not connected with Ukranian lastnames
> We've got involvled (maybe, just me) a lot of things that  it completly referes to   another cases.
> 
> 
> 
> Ptak said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's not an article. It's just a question from some internet user to a Russian language "inquiry service" and a brief answer. But it's not said there that *there are no rules*. It's just said the the accent can be vary. But Гер*а*щенко can't be _Геращенк*о*_ and Кличк*о* can't be _Кл*и*чко_, for example.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ptak said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm afraid I didn't say anything about Ukranian language or Ukranian O.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sure? So sorry,  I ve mixed up you with somebody else.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ptak said:
> 
> 
> 
> Pronounce then English names in Russian speech exactly like they are pronounced in English. Try with Шекспир, for a start.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I know.If we did   Sean would never become "Шон".
> 
> 
> 
> Ptak said:
> 
> 
> 
> Russian pronunciation rules. Sorry, but are you really Russian?
> 
> I'm not "fan" of anything.
> Unstressed O is just A (i.e. shwa) in Russian.
> 
> By the way, I'm "she". See my profile.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sorry.
> 
> My head  is going to blow up . I feel  like I ve been pwned . But I'm really don't hear "A".
> I used to be Russian before this topic's been started. Now, I'm not sure
> 
> papillon hears "A"even in "облако". It's nonsense for me. Is it something wrong with me?
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## Etcetera

> papillon hears "A"even in "облако". It's nonsense for me. Is it something wrong with me?


I don't think so. I, too, hear an ə. And it certainly is closer to an [o] than to an [a].


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## papillon

Etcetera said:


> I don't think so. I, too, hear an ə. And it certainly is closer to an [o] than to an [a].


 I see a pattern here. Something about Saint Petersburg?


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## sargio

Etcetera said:


> I don't think so. I, too, hear an ə. And it certainly is closer to an [o] than to an [a].


I'm not alone. Uh. Thanx. I ve started thinking I understand nothing. And all words with "О" in the end (that's not  stressed) I ve been prouncing wrong. And everbody knew it but nobody said me. Looks like title for scary movie "You will never know the true about "O" .


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## Etcetera

papillon said:


> I see a pattern here. Something about Saint Petersburg?


A smart suggestion. Sargio, do you agree?


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## Ptak

sargio said:


> so облакА ?
> (but if it's closer to A then you can simply mix up it with clouds (plural instead of to be the singular) )


ARE YOU SERIOUS?? 

You can't differ stressed and unstressed syllables??
So how do you differ *у*же and уж*е*, з*а*мок и зам*о*к, and so on?


By the way, I'm from Saint Petersburg, too. Although I don't live there now.


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## sargio

Etcetera said:


> A smart suggestion. Sargio, do you agree?


Yes. But the sample isn't quite representative.  So it's just suggestion now.    
But there're some reasons to become not just a suggestion. Let me explain,  when I ve entered university there's a girl from Suberia region or Ural. I am not sure about the region.  The girl spoke so with some kind of dialect. It's so discouraging to me. Cause I ve never knew that Russian words could be spoken  by Russians in that way. 

By the way another girl-friend has recently  moved to Moscow fro Spb.  So maybe later I can prove this suggestion about region specific "O" pronouncing. And maybe one day the girl will say облака instead of облако like Ptak does. 

Hmm. Looks like a subject for Phd.


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## Ptak

Is it true that according to IPA the English word "banana" has "shwa" in the first syllable? So it's *b[shwa]nana*?

If so, how can this sound be closer to *O* than to *A*?


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## papillon

sargio said:


> Looks like a subject for Phd.


Others thought so too.


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## Kahless

Thanx for the help with The Tk sound, How do you spell Sergei in Russian characters, and what if any is the diminutive name, and its spelling in Russian


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## Ptak

Here's the record where I say the word "облако" in three variants:
1. the usual variant for me
2. the variant with trying to say exactly "A" at the ending
3. the variant with O at the ending

Does the last one sound really common for you? And does the first variant really sound closer to the third one?


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## sargio

Ptak said:


> ARE YOU SERIOUS??
> 
> You can't differ stressed and unstressed syllables??
> So how do you differ *у*же and уж*е*, з*а*мок и зам*о*к, and so on?
> 
> 
> By the way, I'm from Saint Petersburg, too. Although I don't live there now.



I can. Look I've not marked stress in "облако".
But for me than it ends wtih "a". It tends  to shift accent to last letter (just for me. cause it seems to be plural  instead of be the  singular. Looks  too complicacted but I don't know how  to explain it more clear. ).  

Anyway, thanx. But it looks like we going to spoke  about philosophy subjects.  You know, how could we talk about green grass meaning the same green? Maybe my green is red for you. 

But if you have any arguments for  pro and con, I'd  be interesting


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## Ptak

Kahless said:


> Thanx for the help with The Tk sound, How do you spell Sergei in Russian characters, and what if any is the diminutive name, and its spelling in Russian


*Сергей*

Diminutives:
_Серёжа (the most common)_
_Серёженька (to children)_
_Серёга_
_Серый_
and many others


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## papillon

Ptak said:


> Here's the record where I say the word "облако" in three variants:
> 1. the usual variant for me
> 2. the variant with trying to say exactly "A" at the ending
> 3. the variant with O at the ending


Thanks Ptak. I pronounce it (or at least I think I do) the "usual way" - #1.


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## sargio

Ptak said:


> Here's the record where I say the word "облако" in three variants:
> 1. the usual variant for me
> 2. the variant with trying to say exactly "A" at the ending
> 3. the variant with O at the ending
> 
> Does the last one sound really common for you? And does the first variant really sound closer to the third one?



Sure the frist one,but if you ask me about three options listed above.  But look,  you ve played a trick.
Listen to the last word.. You ve said the last word and make stressed the last letter. (better say explicit O) Sure its become not common pronounced.
So you should say the last word in usual way not be O explicit or if not try to say with  more explicit "A" and you ll get the third option but with A.

Thanx. Great job.


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## sargio

Ptak said:


> *Сергей*
> 
> Diminutives:
> _Серёжа (the most common)_
> _Серёженька (to children)_
> _Серёга_
> _Серый_
> and many others



By the way Kahles has writen Sergei. 
What do you think ? Is it better to use  Sergei or  Sergey?


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## Ptak

sargio said:


> Sure the frist one


Sorry, "sure the first one"... what?
If you want to say the first one is common to you, so do you really hear *O* there (at the ending)??



sargio said:


> But look, you ve played a trick.


What??



sargio said:


> You ve said last word and make stressed last letter.


I didn't. I just tried do say *O* at the end.


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## sargio

Ptak said:


> Sorry, "sure the first one"... what?
> If you want to say the first one is common to you, so do you really hear *O* there (at the ending)??
> What??
> I didn't. I just tried do say *O* at the end.



Looks like you are right. But I ve listen to the recording so many times. So I ve got stuck with it.  
You know, as taster shoun't taste too much so me should't  listen too much the recording. 

But I think you try to spell oблако or say it with less speed "A" tends to be "O"...
Leave it. I ve told you it  before. 

Thanks for your patience .


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## sargio

papillon said:


> Others thought so too.



Subjects, one male from St. Petersburg, one female from Ufa, student-age native
speakers of Russian, were instructed to read through each block of sentences once
slowly and then once again as quickly as possible to achieve maximum variation in vowel
durations.

Looks close to that I ve been trying to say. Though I ve not read whole article carefully. I ll do it later. 

Thanx for the article.


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## Maroseika

sargio said:


> By the way Kahles has writen Sergei.
> What do you think ? Is it better to use Sergei or Sergey?


To avoid [сёрджи] I would rather use Serguey.


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## Etcetera

sargio said:


> By the way another girl-friend has recently  moved to Moscow fro Spb.  So maybe later I can prove this suggestion about region specific "O" pronouncing. And maybe one day the girl will say облака instead of облако like Ptak does.


I live currently in Moscow region and I study at Moscow University. Many neighbours and friends do pronounce the last vowel in облако closer to an [a]. My sister, who was born in Moscow, pronounce the word холодильник more like [халадильник] then [хəлəдильник], as my Mum and I do.


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## sargio

Maroseika said:


> To avoid [сёрджи] I would rather use Serguey.


Serguey.  
Google.com (not ru) 's given  us:

Results of about *87,900* for *Serguey*
Results of about *10,100,000* for *Sergei
*Results of about *10,300,000* for *Sergey

*Why do Engilish native speakers use Sergey/Sergei but not  Serguey?
Does it have any sense to English names put on Russian? Ptak's told us about it before.




			
				Ptak said:
			
		

> They are not Russians semantically. But they are used in Russian language. And many Russians have such surnames. If the name *Shakespaere* is not Russian, so we have to pronounce ot like _Ш*е*йскпиа_ and not _Шексп*и*р_?


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## Maroseika

sargio said:


> Serguey.
> Google.com (not ru) 's given us:
> 
> Results of about *87,900* for *Serguey*
> Results of about *10,100,000* for *Sergei*
> Results of about *10,300,000* for *Sergey*
> 
> Why do Engilish native speakers use Sergey/Sergei but not Serguey?
> Does it have any sense to English names put on Russian? Ptak's told us about it before.


You will easily understand why just trying to pronounce Sergey or Sergei according to the English rules. Most often (if not always) -ge- is pronounced in English as [джи/дже]. Many times I heard such reading from the English speakers exactly regarding to this name.
So "u" in between shows them that "g" has to be spelled "g", as it is, like in "guepard" or "guess".
As for Google statistics, it just illustrates quite well why English speakers never know how to address to Sergueys correct.


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## Kahless

That is interesting. My previous translator was Russian born, living in Israel, and he signs off as 'Sergey'.

My understand, maybe wrong is Sergei or Sergey, is pronounced  Sur'-Gay, stress on the first syllable and long A sound on the last syllable. Is this wrong?

*Maroseika *is right. For an English speaker to see gu together, as in Surguey, they would assume it was pronounced Sur'-Gwey

Thanx, Kahless


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## Maroseika

Kahless said:


> That is interesting. My previous translator was Russian born, living in Israel, and he signs off as 'Sergey'.


Well, this is really quite natural for a Russian speaker, because he cannot misunderstand the reading of this name. But as we see English speakers do misunderstand it.



> My understand, maybe wrong is Sergei or Sergey, is pronounced Sur'-Gay, stress on the first syllable and long A sound on the last syllable. Is this wrong?


 
In Sergu*e*y stress falls on the last syllable. The first vowel is shva (or, roughly, close to _).




			Maroseika is right. For an English speaker to see gu together, as in Serguey, they would assume it was pronounced Sur'-Gwey
		
Click to expand...

That's most unfortunate, because my idea is to show English speakers that "gue" is read "in Spanish way", i.e. as in "guess", but not as in "Guenever"._


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## Q-cumber

Kahless said:


> .
> My understand, maybe wrong is Sergei or Sergey, is pronounced  Sur'-Gay, stress on the first syllable and long A sound on the last syllable. Is this wrong?


The name Sergey (Сергей) also has an alternative spelling - Sergii (С*е*ргий); stress on the first syllable. However, nowadays such a variant is only used by the Russian Orthodox Church as an "official" Christian name.


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## sargio

Kahless said:


> That is interesting. My previous translator was Russian born, living in Israel, and he signs off as 'Sergey'.
> 
> My understand, maybe wrong is Sergei or Sergey, is pronounced  Sur'-Gay, stress on the first syllable and long A sound on the last syllable. Is this wrong?
> 
> *Maroseika *is right. For an English speaker to see gu together, as in Surguey, they would assume it was pronounced Sur'-Gwey
> 
> Thanx, Kahless



I have  Sergey on my bank cards and passport. 
So I think  Sergey (or maybe Sergei , see google results) should be used for "Сергей" for spell.
It's like a de facto for this name both for Russian and English.



Kahless said:


> *Maroseika *is right. For an English speaker to see gu together, as in Surguey, they would assume it was pronounced Sur'-Gwey


Now I see "Sergey" is  not  the worst one. 
And it's closer to original "Сергей".

By the way,a spell checker suggest me to use Sergei


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## Maroseika

sargio said:


> I have Sergey on my bank cards and passport.
> So I think Sergey (or maybe Sergei , see google results) should be used for "Сергей" for spell.
> It's like a de facto for this name both for Russian and English.


Well, actually it depends on how you are going to use this name in writing. Maybe for the official documents traditional writing is better, but if you want to give youк reader idea how to read this name correct, Serguey is the only way.
Otherwise, most of the English speakers, unfamiliar to this Slavic name, will read it as in "gear".


----------

