# Living in a country without knowing its official language



## Scrooge

Do you think that's disrespectful? Many Americans complain quite a lot about Mexicans who move to America and don't bother to learn English, but I've also heard about Americans who live overseas for extended periods of time and never even bother to learn the language of the country in which they're living. There is no doubt some overlap between the former and the latter, making those people hypocrites.


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## Hakro

I'm sorry to say this, but really, many English speakers seem to except that they'll be served with their own language anywhere in the world.


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## Kajjo

I cannot imagine to live in a foreign country for prolonged periods and not being interested in the host countries' culture and language. It is not only disrespectful, it is missing very valuable insights, knowledge and contacts.

However, I see a difference between "staying for some time in a foreign country" and "moving permanently to a new country". In the former case I could accept focusing on other issues if really necessary, while in the latter I find it unacceptable.

With regards to the German situation, I cannot accept or understand people who choose to stay here permanently and after years still do not speak German well enough to at least freely communicate. This is a significant hindrance to integration and causes a lot of trouble to all parties involved.

Kajjo


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## Daddyo

Hakro said:


> I'm sorry to say this, but really, many English speakers seem to except that they'll be served with their own language anywhere in the world.



They probably expect it because it probably happens more often than not.

But, going back to the thread question, I don't know if it's meant as a show of disrespect. I personally know several people who have lived in the USA for twenty or more years and do not speak English. It just so happens that you can live a regular life moving among a community where people actually speak both (or more) languages, and services are provided for those who cannot speak English. It probably has to do with the fact that the USA as a nation doesn't have an official language. Individual states may have official languages (as well as official flowers, official colors, etc.), but that doesn't make it mandatory to speak such language. And the fact that some Hispanics do not speak English is just more noticable in the present political climate. There's also other foreign nationals who may or may not be residing in the USA in a legal fashion, who also do not speak English. But we don't mention them too much because it's not so many of them, I mean, when you compare them to Hispanics. And also because, would the politicians be able to use them as an initiative to build a fence across the ocean?


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## Tsoman

I think it depends on if you want to become a citizen of the host country. 

It doesn't matter if a tourist, student, or business person speaks the language because they are still citizens of their own country and will eventually return.

Let's use the United States as an example. Americans will complain about Mexican immigrants not being able to speak English because it has to do with the issue of loyalty. They want to become Americans (not just visit for a while and take some tours). If they learn English, it shows that they take the process seriously. It's about trust.

The same is _not_ expected of tourists. Many times Americans do not know the language of the country they travel to, but they are tourists -- they are not trying to become citizens.


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## fenixpollo

I don't think it depends on the length of your stay, and it's not disrespectful at all. It's a personal choice, based on how dependent you want to be on other people. 

If you're comfortable asking other people to translate for you at all times, and if you are OK with frequent confusion and miscommunication, then by all means, don't bother expending the energy to grow as a person and learn the language of the host country.


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## Outsider

Tsoman said:


> The same is _not_ expected of tourists. Many times Americans do not know the language of the country they travel to, but they are tourists -- they are not trying to become citizens.


It's not just tourists, though. Some English speakers buy a villa in a foreign country for their retirement, surrounded by other villas bought by other English speakers for their retirement. When they move there, they end up  only interacting with other English speakers, and they never bother to learn the local language.


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## Tsoman

Outsider said:


> It's not just tourists, though. Some English speakers buy a villa in a foreign country for their retirement, surrounded by other villas bought by other English speakers for their retirement. When they move there, they end up  only interacting with other English speakers, and they never bother to learn the local language.



Well that's silly. If I was one of them, I would see it as an opportunity to learn a new language. 

But the only issue for me is citizenship. An aspiring citizen should know the language. Anyone else, it's up to them.


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## Koenig

Scrooge said:


> Do you think that's disrespectful? Many Americans complain quite a lot about Mexicans who move to America and don't bother to learn English, but I've also heard about Americans who live overseas for extended periods of time and never even bother to learn the language of the country in which they're living. There is no doubt some overlap between the former and the latter, making those people hypocrites.


 
I think that If you do not make an attempt to learn the language then you should be deported.

If you dont even make an attempt you obviously feel that country is not important enough for you to have to learn the language, therefore you dont deserve to live there.


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## serg79

Tsoman said:


> Well that's silly. If I was one of them, I would see it as an opportunity to learn a new language.
> 
> But the only issue for me is citizenship. An aspiring citizen should know the language. Anyone else, it's up to them.


In Europe it's different though, because if you're from, say, the UK and go to live in Spain (as many thousands do) then you're already a citizen of the European Union and have the right to live there without learning the language, etc.
If you're British, German or French -only those nationalities- and retired then you've probably already payed thousands of Euros in taxes to your new EU country of residence, and it's possible that your new home is in an urbanized area that wouldn't even exist if it weren't for the demand for property from "foreigners" like yourself.


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## übermönch

Citizens only need to understand the state as their servant. It doesn't really matter if they only manage to do it with a dictionary or a hired interpreter. That's what liberty is about. The state should not demand anything from it's people, it works the other way round.


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## Brioche

Outsider said:


> It's not just tourists, though. Some English speakers buy a villa in a foreign country for their retirement, surrounded by other villas bought by other English speakers for their retirement. When they move there, they end up only interacting with other English speakers, and they never bother to learn the local language.


 
I'm not surprised at that.
If you haven't learned a second language when relatively young, you're not going to learn one in your retirement.


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## fenixpollo

Koenig said:


> I think that If you do not make an attempt to learn the language then you should be deported.
> 
> If you dont even make an attempt you obviously feel that country is not important enough for you to have to learn the language, therefore you dont deserve to live there.


 Who decides what constitutes "an attempt"? 

Amazing to me what attitudes abound in the country that claims to be the home of democracy, freedom and "tolerance".


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## Brioche

Koenig said:


> I think that If you do not make an attempt to learn the language then you should be deported.
> 
> If you don't even make an attempt you obviously feel that country is not important enough for you to have to learn the language, therefore you dont deserve to live there.


 
What's an _*attempt*_?
Some adults are simply not able to learn a second language.
Mother nature intended us to learn language as little children.
Little children can learn many languages, and speak them with mother tongue perfection - provided they start early.
As we grow up, this ability leaves us.


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## distille

My own experience:
I used to live in the netherlands. The first year it was to study, all the courses were in english and i was in an international environment. I didn't bother to learn dutch since i had enough to do to improve my english and i didn't plan to stay. The only words i learnt were the polite one: hello, thank you, good bye and numbers.
At the end of the school year i met someone there and i decided to stay in the netherlands after doing an internship abroad. When i came back i looked for a job, i found one (for my work i used english, french and italian, my closest colleagues were english and australian and the dutch ones didn't mind speaking english with me). I decided to suscribe to a dutch course since i had some money. I know that for migrants in the netherlands there are free arrangments to learn dutch, but as a european union citizen nobody suggested me to join such lectures.
At the beginning it was ok, i followed the lectures, learned the basis. I could make simple sentences and i learned lots of vocabulary. The problem is that at some point i got stuck. I could read simple stuff, make simple sentences but once someone started to speak dutch to me i couldn't understand what they were saying (except for very basic stuff). I never managed to learn this language properly.

Why? First, i guess i wasn't very happy in the netherlands, i missed nature, sun and space and probably i put myself into a negative attitude towards this country and the language. Part of me wanted to learn the language but another part wanted to go away (ok...it seems a bit schizophrenic). Second, during the first two years when i spoke dutch people answered systematically in english. In the netherlands almost everybody speaks english, and they're kind so they want to help you. Colleagues, friends, cashiers, they all liked to speak english. During the third year, people started to get irritated at me because i didn't speak dutch. Third, my boyfriend at the time would not bother speaking dutch with me since we would communicate much better in english. Fourth, as an expat you tend to meet many foreigners from all over the world. The native have already their life organise so you meet people like you: young foreigners with no family in the netherlands who know they won't spend their life in the country. Basically, in the netherlands my social environment was an international one where the main language is english (broken english!).

So, this long story only to say that sometimes even when you want to learn a language, it can be too hard for you, you may not be able to turn the situation into a positive one to learn... So it's not necessarily out of disrespect but rather unability.


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## sarcie

Tsoman said:


> It doesn't matter if a tourist, student, or business person speaks the language because they are still citizens of their own country and will eventually return.


 
I'm not sure what you mean about a "businessperson" in this case - are you only referring to people on short term (< 1 month) trips to a foreign country, but who do the majority of their work in their home country? The reason I ask is because I am a businessperson in a foreign country - I work in a German company, I live in Germany, I pay for taxes and social insurance and healthcare in Germany. I am an Irish citizen. But I have no plans to return to Ireland in the near future, if ever. And I really don't think it's acceptable for someone in a similar situation to my own to not to communicate in even the most basic way through the local language - I don't expect to be able to conduct transactions through English here, I'm pleasantly surprised when I am!


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## Pedro y La Torre

You can live in Ireland without learning Irish


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## sarcie

Course you can - but you'd find it more difficult to get by if you didn't speak our *other *official language!  
It still makes me smile when Germans say, "Oh, I'm visiting Dublin for a few days next week, do you think you could teach me a few words of Irish, just enough to get around?"
[I usually tell them that I would be delighted to teach them a few words of Irish because I think it's a beautiful language, but that I wouldn't recommend them trying it out on random people on O'Connell St.!]

So here's a follow-up question to the main thread - is it important to learn some of ALL the official languages of a bi- or multi-lingual country if you live there. E.g. If you move to Geneva, should you learn German?


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## Chaska Ñawi

Koenig said:


> I think that If you do not make an attempt to learn the language then you should be deported.
> 
> If you dont even make an attempt you obviously feel that country is not important enough for you to have to learn the language, therefore you dont deserve to live there.



Shame on all those people who haven't learned to speak Mohawk, Gwichin, Nahuatl, Quechua, Cree.....!


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## Etcetera

In my opinion, it's just impossible to live in a country without any knowledge of its official language. 
Going for holiday, for example, is another thing. No one would expect a tourist to learn Chinese before going to spend a week or two in China.  But if a person goes to China to live here for some time (say, a year or two), they should learn at least basics of Chinese. For their own benefit!



> So here's a follow-up question to the main thread - is it important to learn some of ALL the official languages of a bi- or multi-lingual country if you live there. E.g. If you move to Geneva, should you learn German?


If I'm not mistaken, Geneva is in the French-speaking part of Switzerland. Then I think it's not necessary to learn German, but Italian may be a useful addition to French.
In Finland, there are two official languages - Finnish and Swedish. I am learning Finnish, and I would like to know some Swedish, but it seems that one can go and work in Finland knowing only Finnish.


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## panjabigator

How about if your country is multilingual.  Should Spaniards be chastised for not learning Catalan in Catalonia?  In a country where EVERYONE knows Spanish, should they make Spanish speaker's learn it?  

In India, I feel like there is a big gap in languages;  many possess a different prestige, so to learn the local language is seen as a waste of time.  

It is a tought question to address.  In the US, since there is no official language, it really doesn't bother me too much.  Yes, I do believe everyone living here should learn English, but it is not a strong issue for me.  I look at languages as opportunity, so when I meet people in Florida who do not know English (ie, Spanish speakers), I am thrilled that I finally get to practice my Spanish...

I don't think we should expect English to the cure-all for everything when we travel.  I would not go to Finland and expect English to be the language of communication.


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## zaigucis

Some people lives in country 20 years and more and dont speak its language, some are coming for several years and learn it. It shows attitude.


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## Etcetera

And once again about whether a person needs to learn all the official  languages of a bi- or multilingual country or not - in addition to my post #20.
Here at WR, we have in fact two "official" languages - English and Spanish. So, if a person who knows English comes here, should they learn Spanish?
Of course, Spanish would be a great help, but English will do almost perfectly.


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## COF

Unless you intend to become a citizen, or live for a long period of time in a country, I don't think there's any pressure or need to speak the language.

I personally, like to know the basics of a language before even going on a 1-2 weekd holiday, because speaking to a person in their native language past the phrase "Hello", sets you apart from the usual dumbass, ignorent tourist and creates a lot of warm and chances for genuine friendships.

What a lot of people seem to forget is, you don't need to be fluent in a language to interact on a decent level with people - the rest is done with body language.


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## Koenig

fenixpollo said:


> Who decides what constitutes "an attempt"?
> 
> Amazing to me what attitudes abound in the country that claims to be the home of democracy, freedom and "tolerance".



If you dont _try_. then you should get deported.


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## fenixpollo

Do you define "try" as "take classes at a school"?  Or do you define "try" as "buy a grammar book"?  What about "practice with a coworker"?  How are you going to document that?  Maybe we should assign each immigrant a government caseworker, like a parole officer, to verify that they are "trying" to learn English.   What if an immigrant tries to learn the language, but fails?  They would get to stay, even though they still don't speak the language, right? 





> If you dont _try_. then you should get deported.


 What about people who don't try to learn how to tolerate and accept others who are different from them? If you don't try to be tolerant, should you get deported?


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## Koenig

Should a person be deported from his own country because he is not tolerant of people who come to his country and does not try to learn the language? Is that what you are asking me?


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## Lemminkäinen

Koenig said:


> Should a person be deported from his own country because he is not tolerant of people who come to his country and does not try to learn the language? Is that what you are asking me?



You still haven't defined what you meant with "an attempt" or "to try and learn", neither have you said who these deportion rules are made for - is it for people who want to move permantently to country X? 

My take on it is that you definitely should do your best to learn the language - but the government should do its best to accommodate you with free language courses (I think these are provided here for a lot of immigrants on some conditions), and society should also as a whole do its best to make the integration go as smoothly as possible.

However, applying sanctions for not learning the language is, I feel, a bit of a silly _double peine_ for not speaking the language - not only are you isolated from the very country you live in, but you're also supposed to be punished again (either by deportation as has been suggested in this thread, or by losing your parental custody as has been suggested by a large, right-wing party here).


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## fenixpollo

Koenig said:


> Should a person be deported from his own country because he is not tolerant of people who come to his country and does not try to learn the language? Is that what you are asking me?


 Yes, I'm asking you if this sounds logical to you -- that someone who lives in a democratic country with fairly open borders, a country that allows its residents to speak freely, should be intolerant towards immigrants. 

I'm asking if it sounds logical to you that we deport intolerant people.  I'm also asking if it sounds logical that we should invite people to come here, then threaten to deport them if they don't speak our language according to our standards (standards which you still haven't identified).

Honestly, I don't think either of these things sound logical.


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## Koenig

fenixpollo said:


> Yes, I'm asking you if this sounds logical to you -- that someone who lives in a democratic country with fairly open borders, a country that allows its residents to speak freely, should be intolerant towards immigrants. Im pretty sure the Mexicans who jump the fences arent invited...
> 
> I'm asking if it sounds logical to you that we deport intolerant people.  I'm also asking if it sounds logical that we should invite people to come here, then threaten to deport them if they don't speak our language according to our standards (standards which you still haven't identified). When I said make an attempt to learn the language, I thought it was pretty obvious what I meant. What I meant was that they should either buy a book and at least learn a few phrases, or try to be normal and attempt to become fluent. It's all a matter of how motivated you are.
> 
> Honestly, I don't think either of these things sound logical.


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## serg79

Koenig:

What about the hundreds of thousands of Germans who live in Spain (especially the Balearic islands)?

In your opinion, is their being citizens of the European Union enough to make them exempt from learning Spanish, or should those who don't speak the local language all get "deported" too?


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## Outsider

Here's a thought: did those who are already U.S. citizens have to pass a test, proving they can speak English? And are they expelled from the country if _they_ fail the test?


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## serg79

Outsider said:


> Here's a thought: did those who are already U.S. citizens have to pass a test, proving they can speak English? And are they expelled from the country if _they_ fail the test?


If they had that test in the UK, I'm sure half of the people in my town would be expelled overnight.


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## Lemminkäinen

> When I said make an attempt to learn the language, I thought it was pretty obvious what I meant. What I meant was that they should either buy a book and at least learn a few phrases, or try to be normal and attempt to become fluent. It's all a matter of how motivated you are.



So if someone buys a 'Beginner's English' and learn to say 'hi' and 'goodbye', will that be enough not to be deported?

Who's going to enforce these 'attempts' to learn the language anyway?


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## Chaska Ñawi

> I'm pretty sure the Mexicans who jump the fences aren't invited...



And were the American forces that annexed Texas, California, etc. when those states were part of Mexico invited?   



> What I meant was that they should either buy a book and at least learn a few phrases, or try to be normal and attempt to become fluent. It's all a matter of how motivated you are.



What a fascinating perspective.  Perhaps you might share your standard of "normal" with us in regard to languages.  How did you decide when you reached a standard of normality in the other languages which you learned?

Incidentally, immigrants need to be able to escape the grind of two or three minimum-wage jobs so that they actually have the time and energy left over to actually attend language classes.


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## whattheflock

Gee, in a country with over 300 million people, that has no official language (and in which it is recognized that over 200 different languages are spoken by different groups of people), and in which the Bill of Rights accepts the notion of letting no one, not even the government, take away the freedom of expression I would find it awfully difficult to define what precisely is the language of the land.

Anyway, I agree that the Mexicans who jump fences, swim in the river, or get on a plane and pretend to be residents when they finally land in an international airport, might have never been invited to come to the States. But, at the very least, I think we have a case here of mixed-signals: we keep hiring them.

But, as for deportations, where are we going to send all those people that were born in the USA but will not have dealings with the "English", like some Amish groups, or some of the Mennonites who would only speak Low German, or the ones that only speak Creole, or the ones that only speak the native tongue of their Nation?

Ah, well, we'll deal with that when we get there.


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## Frank06

Hi,


Koenig said:


> Should a person be deported from his own country because he is not tolerant of people who come to his country and does not try to learn the language? Is that what you are asking me?


Could you please refresh my memory... What exactly is the official language in the USA? And could you refer to the right article, since I am not able to find it.
Thanks in advance.

Groetjes,

Frank


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## Hockey13

Koenig said:


> English. There is no official language, but the majority of _*legal citizens*_ speak English.
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia!org/wiki/Languages_in_the_United_States
> 
> switch the exclamation point for a period.


 
Why does it matter that much? Are your rights infringed upon if someone doesn't speak English? Are you also willing to deport those who can't speak at all and must use sign language?


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## Hockey13

Chaska Ñawi said:


> Shame on all those people who haven't learned to speak Mohawk, Gwichin, Nahuatl, Quechua, Cree.....!


 
Btw...great post!


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## Frank06

Hi,


Koenig said:


> English. There is no official language, but the majority of _*legal citizens*_ speak English.
> en.wikipedia!org/wiki/Languages_in_the_United_States.


In other words, you want to deport people who don't speak "the official language" ('cause that's still the topic of this thread) which is *not *the official language. Nice legal basis you've got there.



Koenig said:


> When I said make an attempt to learn the language, I thought it was pretty obvious what I meant. What I meant was that they should *either *buy a book and at least learn a few phrases, *or* try to be normal and attempt to become fluent. It's all a matter of how motivated you are.



I hope you'll find the motivation to learn Spanish... Probably you'll need it soon.
 


Groetjes,

Frank


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## Hockey13

Frank06 said:


> I hope you'll find the motivation to learn Spanish... Probably you'll need it soon.


 
We can only hope our country will have the advantage of bilingualism (?) in the future!


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## maxiogee

Koenig said:


> I think that If you do not make an attempt to learn the language then you should be deported.
> 
> If you dont even make an attempt you obviously feel that country is not important enough for you to have to learn the language, therefore you dont deserve to live there.




Does this apply to those who are born in a country and yet don't speak the "official" - or the "majority" language?

To where would you send them?


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## djchak

Living in a country where you don't speak the language of what the majority speak is a bad idea, long term. Visiting for short periods is fine.

As far as all the legalities, the government of that nation should figure it out, and enforce it as they wish.


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## Pedro y La Torre

Ssheesh......calm down. All the guy is saying is that if you live in a country and don't even make an attempt to speak the language then why bother being there? Deporting them, I think OK, is a ridiculous and unworkable idea but like it or not the USA speaks ENGLISH not Spanish, Navajo or anything else. If you don't bother to try and learn the language why are you there? It dosen't matter how crap you are, just give it a go.


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## Chaska Ñawi

Pedro y La Torre said:


> ...like it or not the USA speaks ENGLISH not Spanish, Navajo or anything else.



According to the U.S. Census Bureau, in 2005 about 14% (around 49 million *American citizens*) were Spanish-speaking.  That statistic doesn't, I believe, include landed residents and illegal immigrants.  (Canada, with two official languages, has a francophone population of about 22%.)  I read that the hispanic population is expected to outnumber the anglophone population in the United States by 2050.  I can't see the United States as a country going officially bilingual, but it wouldn't surprise me to see certain states that are already de facto bilingual declaring this officially.

Incidentally, a country doesn't "speak" - its inhabitants do.


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## motorhead

sarcie said:


> Course you can - but you'd find it more difficult to get by if you didn't speak our *other *official language!
> It still makes me smile when Germans say, "Oh, I'm visiting Dublin for a few days next week, do you think you could teach me a few words of Irish, just enough to get around?"
> [I usually tell them that I would be delighted to teach them a few words of Irish because I think it's a beautiful language, but that I wouldn't recommend them trying it out on random people on O'Connell St.!]



Lol, due to my ignorance it's the firt time I hear of a language that is not english in Irland, what's  the difference?


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## maxiogee

Pedro y La Torre said:


> Ssheesh......calm down. All the guy is saying is that if you live in a country and don't even make an attempt to speak the language then why bother being there? Deporting them, I think OK, is a ridiculous and unworkable idea but like it or not the USA speaks ENGLISH not Spanish, Navajo or anything else. If you don't bother to try and learn the language why are you there? It dosen't matter how crap you are, just give it a go.



The point is, Pedro, that the original "immigrants" - illegal as they were - into what became the United States, made no attempt to speak the local language - and would have been affronted had anyone asked that they should. There were various groups of emigrants - Italian, German, Dutch and others who brought and maintained their own languages, but they have had to relinquish their languages to the might of English - why did they have to? To "fit in"? Seems very harsh to me.
It is perfectly possible to live in the US, and in some other countries, without learning the official or majority languages. Why should someone who can live perfectly well in a society be obliged to learn a language they do not really need?
It is the real mark of a conqueror to stamp out all other languages. Do English-speaking Americans seem so threatened by non-English speakers that they demand that they learn English? What do they fear —> that they will be 'outbred' and that English might become a minority language in time?


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## Pedro y La Torre

Chaska Ñawi said:


> According to the U.S. Census Bureau, in 2005 about 14% (around 49 million *American citizens*) were Spanish-speaking.


 
 Spanish-speaking alone? Or bi-lingual?



Chaska Ñawi said:


> I read that the hispanic population is expected to outnumber the anglophone population in the United States by 2050. I can't see the United States as a country going officially bilingual, but it wouldn't surprise me to see certain states that are already de facto bilingual declaring this officially.


 
I don't think that's correct. Hispanics are (possibly) expected to outnumber non-Hispanic whites but not Anglophones. I would guess that a large minority or even majority of 3rd and 4th generation Hispanics are already Anglophones. Hispanics, I would say, will go like the Germans, Swedes and everyone else before them and drop their home language if favour of the language of their adopted country or least become bi-lingual.

 "_It is necessary to remember that historically the original languages of immigrants tend to disappear or become greatly reduced through assimilation__ and generational change. The Spanish language has disappeared in several countries and territories during the 20th century, notably in the Pacific Island nations of Guam, Micronesia, Palau, Northern Marinas, and Marshall Islands. In the Philippines, it has now virtually died out (2,658 speakers, 1990 Census), although numerous Spanish loan words_ _exist_."



Chaska Ñawi said:


> Incidentally, a country doesn't "speak" - its inhabitants do.


 
 Come on, drop the semantics, you know what I meant 



Chaska Ñawi said:


> I can't see the United States as a country going officially bilingual, but it wouldn't surprise me to see certain states that are already de facto bilingual declaring this officially.


 
 You may be right, and that would be a good thing, but somehow I don't know if the conservatives in the U.S will let it happen.

 Also, from Wiki:

 "_On May 18th, 2006 the Senate voted on an amendment to an immigration reform bill that would declare *English *the national language of the United States. The immigration reform bill itself, S. 2611, was passed in the Senate on May 25, 2006, and now has to go back to the House of Representatives in conference to make sure amendments are agreed upon_."

Anyway, my point is that whether the language is English, Spanish or Koine Greek, if you live there you should at least make an attempt to speak the native language. It dosen't matter how good or bad you are.


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## Pedro y La Torre

maxiogee said:


> The point is, Pedro, that the original "immigrants" - illegal as they were - into what became the United States, made no attempt to speak the local language - and would have been affronted had anyone asked that they should. There were various groups of emigrants - Italian, German, Dutch and others who brought and maintained their own languages, but they have had to relinquish their languages to the might of English - why did they have to? To "fit in"? Seems very harsh to me.
> It is perfectly possible to live in the US, and in some other countries, without learning the official or majority languages. Why should someone who can live perfectly well in a society be obliged to learn a language they do not really need?
> It is the real mark of a conqueror to stamp out all other languages. Do English-speaking Americans seem so threatened by non-English speakers that they demand that they learn English? What do they fear —> that they will be 'outbred' and that English might become a minority language in time?



I agree I think what the English and later Americans did to the Natives was terrible. They robbed their land, forabde their languages and killed them all off. But, this is today not 1700.

You should be able to speak all the languages you feel like, I'm not saying you shouldn't be allowed to. But it seems to make common sense that if I move to England I at least attempt to learn English or if I move to Qatar I at least attempt to learn Arabic.

Otherwise, what am I doing? How am I supposed to get around or integrate?

On the reverse, isn't it an equally ignorant mentality to come to another country and just expect everyone to understand YOUR native language?

If you want to live on an island and speak to yourself that's great but if you go to someone else's country, it would at least be courteous to learn a little bit. I'm not saying you should be kicked out or anything if you don't but if would be better for you if you did.


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## maxiogee

Pedro y La Torre said:


> You should be able to speak all the languages you feel like, I'm not saying you shouldn't be allowed to. But it seems to make common sense that if I move to England I at least attempt to learn English or if I move to Qatar I at least attempt to learn Arabic.



My point is that there are in England many places where there are bi-lingual colonies of immigrants. It can happen that an Pakistani or a Pole could move into one of these areas and not need, ever, to learn English. 
Immigrants moving into a large enough population of their fellows can manage to conduct all their business and social lives without being overly discomforted.
They often let their children learn English and they can conduct any monolingual business which arises.
I don't see learning English as a requirement of these people, if they fill a niche in the country without needing English then that's fine. It's when they come to expect that their lack of English should be catered for that I have a problem with their choice.
If a country has no official language, can it be said to have a "native" one - if there are many different communities within it? It may have what I already termed a 'majority' language, but it isn't necessarily a native one.


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## Pedro y La Torre

maxiogee said:


> My point is that there are in England many places where there are bi-lingual colonies of immigrants. It can happen that an Pakistani or a Pole could move into one of these areas and not need, ever, to learn English.
> Immigrants moving into a large enough population of their fellows can manage to conduct all their business and social lives without being overly discomforted.
> They often let their children learn English and they can conduct any monolingual business which arises.
> I don't see learning English as a requirement of these people, if they fill a niche in the country without needing English then that's fine. It's when they come to expect that their lack of English should be catered for that I have a problem with their choice.
> If a country has no official language, can it be said to have a "native" one - if there are many different communities within it? It may have what I already termed a 'majority' language, but it isn't necessarily a native one.



That is true and I see your point however, it strikes me as rather strange that an Englishman would move to Spain or a Pakistani to England without ever feeling a need to make even an attempt to learn the native or "majority" language.

It's fine if you want to live in a ghetto but I guarentee 99.9% of these people will at one time or another have dealings with natives who don't speak their language. Isn't it highly ignorant to just assume, "I'm going to move to X but I'm only going to speak my own language, if they understand great, if they don't who cares"?

In Spain you have the English who move down south but never bother to learn a word of Spanish. Sure, they can stay amongst themselves, cater for their own needs etc. but how do you think the natives feel? They see these foreigners moving in who don't even have the courtesy to try and learn even a few basic sentences of their language and so anger and contempt between the communities arises.

What if they just made an attempt? Why do they feel they have the right to just move somewhere and expect everyone to understand them? It just seems the height of ignorance to me.


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## Hockey13

Pedro...I think everyone here agrees that it is socially awkward and a bit rude not to learn the language if you are a permanent resident (though we should _never_ chide someone for making an effort and being absolutely horrible as I've seen many extremely rude Americans do in the past...and I think that sort of behavior is worse than an immigrant not making any effort to speak a language). However, the thing that some of us feel is a bit totalitarian is the "deportation" issue. Deporting somebody is often just a simplified, xenophobic way to deal with an immigration "problem." In my opinion, this goes right up there with building a fence along the border of Mexico as a (rather unclever) way to rally the xenophobic people that tend to make up the Republican Party's base.


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## Koenig

maxiogee said:


> Does this apply to those who are born in a country and yet don't speak the "official" - or the "majority" language?
> 
> To where would you send them?



Mexico or Canada


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## ps139

I have family who immigrated to the US from Italy and Mexico. When they arrived, the "family rule" was "learn English." Spanish and Italian was still spoken in the home, especially at extended family gatherings, but learning English was a priority, it was a responsibility. They wanted to be American, and wanted to give it their best shot. I think that is the honorable and respectful thing to do. If I ever move to another country, I will do my best to learn the language. And if I have children there, we will have a bilingual household, but the emphasis will be on the language of the country.


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## maxiogee

maxiogee said:


> Does this apply to those who are born in a country and yet don't speak the "official" - or the "majority" language?
> 
> To where would you send them?





Koenig said:


> Mexico or Canada



Why, they have no connection with those countries? 
And - those countries would not be obliged to accept them. Why should they?


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## Pedro y La Torre

Hockey13 said:


> Pedro...I think everyone here agrees that it is socially awkward and a bit rude not to learn the language if you are a permanent resident (though we should _never_ chide someone for making an effort and being absolutely horrible as I've seen many extremely rude Americans do in the past...and I think that sort of behavior is worse than an immigrant not making any effort to speak a language).





Pedro y La Torre said:


> If you don't bother to try and learn the language why are you there? It dosen't matter how crap you are, just give it a go.





Hockey13 said:


> However, the thing that some of us feel is a bit totalitarian is the "deportation" issue. Deporting somebody is often just a simplified, xenophobic way to deal with an immigration "problem." In my opinion, this goes right up there with building a fence along the border of Mexico as a (rather unclever) way to rally the xenophobic people that tend to make up the Republican Party's base.



I've already said deportation just because you don't speak the language is a ridiculous and unworkable idea. Only xenophobes/seriously misinformed people (as many are in the U.S. today) would think that is a solution.
_
However_, if you want to live in another country I believe there is an onus upon you to at least make an attempt to learn the language. To just arrive and expect the natives to speak in YOUR language is such as ignorant attiude as to be almost beyond belief.

I think this thread has run it's course. If you agree with me great, if not, great too.


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## Koenig

maxiogee said:


> Why, they have no connection with those countries?
> And - those countries would not be obliged to accept them. Why should they?



Well, why should we accept them?


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## maxiogee

maxiogee said:


> Does this apply to those who are born in a country and yet don't speak the "official" - or the "majority" language?
> To where would you send them?





Koenig said:


> Mexico or Canada





maxiogee said:


> Why, they have no connection with those countries?
> And - those countries would not be obliged to accept them. Why should they?





Koenig said:


> Well, why should we accept them?



Because, as you can see above, I said that they were born there. I was talking theoretically, but you seem to be seeing it as a purely American issue. Well, OK, these people are neither Mexican nor Canadian - they would be "American". They *might* be Navajo, Pennsylvania Deutsch, or the children of legal immigrants from anywhere.


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## invictaspirit

Moving to another country and not trying to learn its official or majority language is culturally ignorant, morally pig-headed, dismissive, impolite and unintelligent.

However, there is nothing anyone can do to those who legally reside somewhere but refuse to use the majority language. Encourage them certainly, criticise them definitely...but that's about all you can do.

I would like to see the (fairly small) number of legal residents of the UK who refuse to learn English have their welfare/benefits cut incrementally.  I doubt fairly strongly that I should be subsidising their refusal, and it is a condition of receiving benefits that you make yourself available for work.  But I can't insist they be moved anywhere else if they are legally here in the first place.


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## panjabigator

invictaspirit said:


> Moving to another country and not trying to learn its official or majority language is culturally ignorant, morally pig-headed, dismissive, impolite and unintelligent.



Hmm...I do agree for the most part, but what about if your grandparent, who is monolingual in another language, decided to move on over to England from a none English speaking country.  They have no need to learn the language...and most don't want to.  And I don't consider that ignorant.  But if I moved to Holland and didn't even make an attempt to learn the language (at least at my current age), then a big slap in my face is in order!


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## Outsider

I have to ask: since when are politeness, intelligence, and sensitivity for the feelings of others central requirements for low-wage immigrants?


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## ireney

It turned into another "what happens if someone migrates to the US" for the most part I see.

For me it's more than just inconvenient at times or rude. And learning a new language doesn't mean abandoning your own, it just means becoming bilingual.

You go to a country to leave for 
a) economical reasons
b) political reasons
c) "emotional" reasons (I in example may have to move for reasons of the heart; or my boyfriend should)

Now the country is going to show you acceptance, tolerance etc and earn from you.
Should you do the same for that country? 
It always should work both way. Yes, a minority should be respected but the minority should respect the majority too. A host country should respect the immigrants but the immigrants should respect the host country too. Learning the language of the host country (or at least the one spoken by the majority) is for me a way to show that respect and a way to understand its culture. 
Since for a quid pro quo relation to exist in such a case that would mean that the members of the said majority should learn quite a few languages this is of course impossible. Well, it's not a quid pro quo case here. If it seems that I ask for the immigrants to do more be it so. 

Of course I find the "deportation" thing ridiculous. Greece has an official language and is spoken by the vast majority of Greeks. There are however villages in Thrace of Turkophones and some of them are monolingual. Should we deport them? Thankfully, even though at the past Greece has failed to treat its minorities as it should we at least never went that far. 

By the way, I think that we should, by this logic, deport if not those of the ambassadors who have been in Greece long enough but don't speak the language at least that cultural attaches that don't!


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## mytwolangs

Well, a lot of the Mexicans in the USA who don't know English do this - 
When you talk to them, they stand there with a grin and say "yes"...

I wonder if that work in all countries and languages? Just stand there and grin and use their version of "yes".


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## don maico

Hakro said:


> I'm sorry to say this, but really, many English speakers seem to except that they'll be served with their own language anywhere in the world.


This I'm afraid is sadly true of many but not all.I have few arrogant Brits who adopt this ignorant attitude nad who fell no desire no mix with foreign communities at all and I avoid them like the plague 
I regard as disrespectful not to learn their language or at least attempt to learn it. Itr doesnt come easy to evryone to do so but an attempt must be made I feel


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## Luke Warm

It's obvious that people have drastically different opinions on this matter (or we probably wouldn't be discussing it). It's easy for speakers of the home country's language to say that foreigners should learn the home language, but the situation isn't so black and white. First off, some people aren't predisposed to learning languages. This of course becomes more difficult with age. Additionally, it's hard to learn a language-- people often are annoyed if someone can't speak, but when a foreigner tries, they open themselves up to being considered stupid and possibly even being insulted by native speakers. I live in Germany and have learned a fair amount of German-- enough to pass the mid-level state exam, but even so, the experience can often be humbling and frustrating. Even when nobody comments, it's hard not to feel dumb, sitting there nodding your way through a conversation that you've lost track of. So it takes a lot of confidence to set your pride aside and butcher a language as one inevitably must when learning. And if an individual happens to be even a little bit shy, learning a language becomes even harder. Add on top of that, as has been already posted, that often an individual can get by without speaking the home language, and the motivation to learn becomes less and less.
If people in a home country really expect foreigners to learn their language, then they need to take a more active role in integrating them and provide environments in which foreigners can interact with locals in a setting conducive to learning, where patience is practiced and confidence is built. Simply saying a foreigner SHOULD learn a language ignores the significant factors and is, in turn, unrealistic. At the same time, integration is a two-way street. A foreigner who does not even attempt to integrate should be not be surprised at being alienated. Whether deserved or not, prejudice, however hard we try to eliminate it, is a fact of human nature.


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## RIU

Hi, 

I ask to myself, can I understand that in all countries native people have great (an erroneous?) politeness sense? Why we do it?


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## ireney

Luke Warm said:


> It's obvious that people have drastically different opinions on this matter (or we probably wouldn't be discussing it). It's easy for speakers of the home country's language to say that foreigners should learn the home language, but the situation isn't so black and white. First off, some people aren't predisposed to learning languages. This of course becomes more difficult with age. Additionally, it's hard to learn a language-- people often are annoyed if someone can't speak, but when a foreigner tries, they open themselves up to being considered stupid and possibly even being insulted by native speakers. I live in Germany and have learned a fair amount of German-- enough to pass the mid-level state exam, but even so, the experience can often be humbling and frustrating. Even when nobody comments, it's hard not to feel dumb, sitting there nodding your way through a conversation that you've lost track of. So it takes a lot of confidence to set your pride aside and butcher a language as one inevitably must when learning. And if an individual happens to be even a little bit shy, learning a language becomes even harder. Add on top of that, as has been already posted, that often an individual can get by without speaking the home language, and the motivation to learn becomes less and less.
> If people in a home country really expect foreigners to learn their language, then they need to take a more active role in integrating them and provide environments in which foreigners can interact with locals in a setting conducive to learning, where patience is practiced and confidence is built. Simply saying a foreigner SHOULD learn a language ignores the significant factors and is, in turn, unrealistic. At the same time, integration is a two-way street. A foreigner who does not even attempt to integrate should be not be surprised at being alienated. Whether deserved or not, prejudice, however hard we try to eliminate it, is a fact of human nature.



Well I've been unable to learn German but on the other hand I have never really tried. Now my French is pathetic to say the least but I try to better them and believe me, my French friends who also speak English appreciate my efforts when I visit their country. And I don't really feel stupid. Why should I? I speak Greek better than they do  Only an ignorant person will think that someone is stupid just because he or she doesn't speak a foreign language well enough.

And why is it prejudice to think that one should make an effort to learn the language of a place? Let us take the example of Greece. We have  quite a few Albanian immigrants here. We don't speak Albanian I'm afraid. In between themselves the Albanians speak Albanian obviously as well they should (it would be stupid not to do so). But how are they to communicate with the locals none of whom has the Albanian as a native language? Is it prejudiced not to hire someone you cannot communicate with? Now since these people have to work very hard for a living they don't have time to learn the Greek "properly". No one asks them to do so. In fact their vast majority butchers the Greek language since it is apparently quite different from theirs. No problem there just as long as we can communicate.


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## Luke Warm

I agree with you entirely that people should not judge someone on their ability (or lack thereof) to speak a foreign language, but it is a fact that some people do (especially those who have never tried to learn a foreign language themselves). And I'm not saying that people should feel stupid because they can't speak a language, but when one is used to being involved in conversation, when one then struggles to even follow a conversation in a foreign language it can be quite discouraging. My point is that many people who say that foreigners should "just learn the language" don't usually realize how hard it can be nor recognize all the factors that might cause an individual to shy away from persevering through the diffículties and learn that language.  As for prejudice, in no way do I condone it, but it is a fact of human nature that differences will be scruitinized, so to not try to integrate unfortunately invites prejudice.  The point is, it's both the foreigners' and the locals' responsibility to bridge that gap and make integration more manageable.


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## aubergine_dreams

I have always thought this about people who move to England (noteably Muslims, but there are others). For example, A friend of mine was holding a job interview for a muslim lady and her husband had to be present to translate the whole interview because she didn't speak a word of english. The interview was to work in a shop. When she didn't get the job they complained and my friend got disciplined.


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## Sallyb36

aubergine_dreams said:


> I have always thought this about people who move to England (noteably Muslims, but there are others). For example, A friend of mine was holding a job interview for a muslim lady and her husband had to be present to translate the whole interview because she didn't speak a word of english. The interview was to work in a shop. When she didn't get the job they complained and my friend got disciplined.




This is a prime example of how ridiculous things are in this country.


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## Luke Warm

Muslim integration into European society is complicated by the differing social traditions, especially regarding gender roles. Muslim women are often forbidden by their husbands from integrating, let alone learning the language of the resident country. This puts both foreign Muslims and their European hosts in an awkward position. There are unfortunately no easy solutions to the problem. It doesn't seem that traditional Muslims are going to suddenly decide to integrate, but perhaps over time ways can be found to better coexist. This may mean that Europeans have to take a more forward role in the process without expecting reciprocation. I was disappointed recently that plans to build a Mosque in Munich (where I live) were abandoned because of the comparative shortage of Catholic churches in Muslim countries. I normally regard Munich as a liberal, tolerant city, but such one-for-one thinking will not solve the current problems. One side has to take the lead or this situation will not be improved, and fair or unfair it seems it will have to come from the European side.


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## Luke Warm

One more thing though-- aubergine's friend being disciplined is ridiculous.  Baseless affirmative action is certainly not the solution.


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## Cracker Jack

Scrooge said:


> Do you think that's disrespectful? Many Americans complain quite a lot about Mexicans who move to America and don't bother to learn English, but I've also heard about Americans who live overseas for extended periods of time and never even bother to learn the language of the country in which they're living. There is no doubt some overlap between the former and the latter, making those people hypocrites.


 
I am of the opinion that indeed it is disrespectful.  Let alone if the immigrants plan to settle for good.  It is a matter of Give unto Caesar what is Caesar...''   However, this reality is very prevalent.  According to you, Mexicans do it in the US.  Here in Spain, there is a ''colony'' of English native who never take the initiative to learn Spanish.  They rely on the fact that they just communicate with each other and find no need to learn the language.  Although, they have a ''speaker'' of sorts who communicates the general idea to Spaniards.

In Catalunya, in particular, there are Andalucian and South American migrants who have taken residence for decades and yet can hardly express themselves in Catalan.  In the same vein, these Spanish speakers relish the fact that everyone in Catalunya understands Spanish.

If you plan to stay for more than 1 month in a certain locality, or even settle there, it becomes incumbent on you to learn the language the natives speak.


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