# Prośby i polecenie



## LeTasmanien

Hi everyone,

I am a little confused by this type of structure which has arisen in a discussion of

“Prośby i polecenie”:

Ja (Marek) mówię: “Komputer się zablokował, pomóż mi.”

We would like to phrase this more politely and try

Chciałbym, żebyś *pomagała* mi.

Or should it be..

Chciałbym, żebyś *pomagał* mi.

I don’t know with whom/what the past tense verb form should agree.

The only examples that I have each give past tense 3rd person singular feminine form.

Beyond that, I have no idea why the past tense should occur in such cases but happy to take that as just how it is.

Thanks in advance
Philip


----------



## erond

Chciałbym, żebyś *pomogła* mi.

or better

Chciałbym, żebyś mi *pomogła*.


----------



## Szkot

LeTasmanien said:


> Beyond that, I have no idea why the past tense should occur in such cases but happy to take that as just how it is.



It isn't really the past tense, it's the conditional, formed from what looks like the past tense, plus 'bym, byś, by ... etc.'  The conditional element is attached to że, as it also is to gdy.

The verb ending depends on who you are asking for help with byś.  As you know, English 'they' is often used in cases of doubt; I don't know what native speakers do in that situation.

Proszę o pomoc would avoid the gender issue, but I can't say how idiomatic it would sound.


----------



## LeTasmanien

Thanks very much for this clear explanation. Mystery solved!


----------



## jasio

LeTasmanien said:


> Ja (Marek) mówię: “Komputer się zablokował, pomóż mi.”
> ...
> Chciałbym, żebyś *pomagała* mi.
> ...
> Chciałbym, żebyś *pomagał* mi.


There is a couple of issues with these phrases.

*Aspect*: In such cases typically perfective aspect is used, while imperfective (which is used in your examples) is rather rare. Logical explanation: you're asking for a one-time help. Using imperfective aspect would suggest that you would need help for a prolonged period of time or repetitively. It's not impossible, of course: if you broke a leg (touch the wood), you would need help every day for a couple of months. But it's not the case with a locked computer, so the proper verb form would be "pomógł/pomogła" (if I'm not mistaken, historically, this form was a past participle, but nowadays it's described as the third person of the past tense). Unless you assume that your computer will lock every day, of course. ;-)

In these sentences it's the *addressee* who *rules the gender* of the verb, not the subject. Whatever sex you are, if you ask a male you would use "pomógł", if you ask a female, you would say "pomogła". The age or a degree of familiarity is not important (the latter influences other parts of the setence, so stay tuned).
The correct word order: "chciałbym, żebyś mi pomógł/pomogła"
*Familiarity*: the above phrases are ok with persons with whom you are familiar (by the first name) or minors. In case of adults "...żeby mi Pan pomógł / Pani pomogła" looks better

*Honorification*: such form can be used towards subordinate, it's an order rather than request. Hence, I would probably prefer "czy możesz / może Pan / może Pani mi pomóc", maybe except for interns. While addressing people of at least equal or an unknown status, I would rather say "czy mógłbyś mi / mogłabyś mi / mógłby mi Pan / mogłaby mi Pani pomóc" - and this would be proper in most of the cases, including complete strangers. Impersonal "czy mógłbym / mogłabym prosić (Cię / Pana / Panią) o pomoc" is more self-humiliating and formal. Please note that in the latter case the gender of the modal verb matches the sex of the subject, so you wold probably say "czy mógłbym prosić...", while a female would say "czy mogłabym prosić...".
It would be about everything, more or less.


----------



## LeTasmanien

Thanks for this additional background information.



Szkot said:


> It isn't really the past tense, it's the conditional, formed from what looks like the past tense, plus 'bym, byś, by ... etc.'  The conditional element is attached to że, as it also is to gdy.
> 
> The verb ending depends on who you are asking for help with byś.  As you know, English 'they' is often used in cases of doubt; I don't know what native speakers do in that situation.
> 
> Proszę o pomoc would avoid the gender issue, but I can't say how idiomatic it would sound.



Hi Szkot,
I am returning to your response above: 
Your explanation that in these situations 
'it's the conditional, formed from what looks like the past tense, plus 'bym, byś, by ... etc.'
seems intuitively logical and correct to me.
However I have a native polish speaking friend who disagrees strongly with the idea of it being the conditional, insisting instead that it's simply an odd usage of the past tense and the form of the conjunctions (żeby, żebyś etc) is not connected with the verb itself.

Do you know of any reliable source that I could use to support your assertion above?

Thanks


----------



## grassy

It's not the conditional. _Chciałbym, żebyś mi pomogła_ = _I would like you to help me_.


----------



## Szkot

I am not the best person to advise on this, because A I am not Polish and B I believe that grammar is there to describe reality and the same reality can be described in different ways of equal validity.

I can quote Oscar E. Swan (Verbs and Essentials of Grammar, 2008), who says 'The conditional is primarily used:  1.  In clauses of purpose', with the example ' ..., żebyś to dobrze zrozumiała'.   This seems to contradict your friend (and grassy), but that doesn't make either of them wrong.

Some grammars describe gdyby and żeby as conjugating conjunctions - I prefer to see them as normal conjunctions which are followed by a conditional verb, conventionally written as one unit.   I think that is a better way of describing it, but that's my opinion.  I don't find your friend's view very helpful.

If we take the word pisał - this is usually thought of as the past tense, and by itself it is, but is it still the past tense in the phrase będę pisał, or in the conditional pisałbym or bym pisał?  You can say it is (Swan does), and as people usually learn the past tense first it may be a good idea to teach it that way, but you can also say it is the -ł form of the verb, used in various ways, only one of which is the past tense.


----------



## jasio

Szkot said:


> Some grammars describe gdyby and żeby as conjugating conjunctions - I prefer to see them as normal conjunctions which are followed by a conditional verb, conventionally written as one unit.   I think that is a better way of describing it, but that's my opinion.  I don't find your friend's view very helpful.


An interesting piece of information can be found here: Tryb łączący – Wikipedia, wolna encyklopedia where they call this syntax "subjunctive mood". The issue is, it's not (widely) taught at schools, where only indicative, imperative and conditional moods are recognised. But some sources distinguish between conditional ("zrobiłbyś, byś zrobił" which expresses a possibility, 'you would do') and subjunctive ("chcę, żebyś zrobił" which expresses a form of command in this case.'I want you to do').



Szkot said:


> If we take the word pisał - this is usually thought of as the past tense, and by itself it is, but is it still the past tense in the phrase będę pisał, or in the conditional pisałbym or bym pisał?  You can say it is (Swan does), and as people usually learn the past tense first it may be a good idea to teach it that way, but you can also say it is the -ł form of the verb, used in various ways, only one of which is the past tense.


The "-ł" form is indeed most naturally recognised as the third person past tense, which as you noticed is sometimes misleading. To avoid this amiguity, it's also sometimes referred to as "imiesłów czasu przeszłego" ('past participle'). This helps distinguinsh between the real past tense and using this form in compund future, subjunctive, conditional, (archaic) pluperfect, etc.


----------



## LeTasmanien

Thank you very much Jasio for the insights in this helpful reply.
The conditional vs subjunctive distinction is interesting.

Thanks for this well-thought out response Szkot.
You say above in reference to Swan's verbs & essentials of grammar that '...this seems to contradict your friend....'.
I have also consulted Swan (Polish Grammar in a Nutshell) Page 65
and found really only a passing reference in his comment....
"The English use of for after a verb of request has a correspondent in
the Polish conditional: Prosili, żebyśmy mniej hałasowali. (They asked for us to make less noise.)"

So it does seem clear that there is some ambiguity about this structure though I am surprised that i cannot find anywhere an authoritative explanation of it.


----------



## wolfbm1

The sentence "Chciałbym, żebyś *pomagała* mi," in different context might sound as a complaint: I wish you would help me.
(To avoid ambiguity it is better to form your request as "czy możesz/mógłbyś mi pomóc.")


----------



## LeTasmanien

OK but the point is that the polish language student needs to understand the 'chcieć, żeby/ś/m...' structure as it is a common usage in everyday language.

I guess too that, as in English, for any particular statement that is intended not to be taken at face value, the listener will detect the from the tone of voice and context  any undertones of sarcasm, complaint etc...


----------



## wolfbm1

LeTasmanien said:


> OK but the point is that the Polish language student needs to understand the 'chcieć, żeby/ś/m...' structure as it is a common usage in everyday language.


In your sentence: _Chciałbym, żebyś mi pomogła_, the structure for the first person masculine in the singular is: chciał + bym + coś
, where "_chciałbym_" literally means "he wanted + to be + the first person particle ('m')." So, although "chciał", a past form of "chcieć" in the third person masculine is actually used, the particle "m" after the morpheme "by" makes us understand that "chciałbym" is in the first person singular.

In English you use "would + like." Would is the past form of will and it is a modal verb. (By the way, the word 'will' is related to the German 'wollen' and the Polish 'wola' or, perhaps, 'mieć wolę.')

In your sentence "coś" is "żebyś mi pomogła" (= that you would help me).
_I would like you to help me_. - _Chciałbym, żebyś mi pomogła_.
In English you used the hypothetical form once, in Polish you have to use it again in the clause that tells us what it is you want.
_Chciałbym, żebyś mi pomogła_ literally means _I would like that you helped (/would help) me_.

The structure 'chciałbym + coś' can also be used in this conversation:
A: _Chciałbym coś._
B: _Co chciałbyś?_
A: _Chciałbym dostać prezent od Mikołaja. _

I hope I have explained the above clearly enough.
Try and google 'tryb warunkowy Polish conditionals' or 'tryb przypuszczajacy Polish conditionals.'
Also "historia imiesłowów" "Gramatyka historyczna języka polskiego" "Krystyna Długosz-Kurczabowa" "Stanisław Dubisz".
You may find something interesting on this topic.


----------



## grassy

I am with jasio on this one. It's the subjunctive mood. It's similar in French, where you have _Je voudrais que_ + subjonctif.


----------



## wolfbm1

grassy said:


> I am with jasio on this one. It's the subjunctive mood. It's similar in French, where you have _Je voudrais que_ + subjonctif.


That's correct.
"Tryb łączący tworzy się za pomocą partykuł żeby, iżby, ażeby, aby, coby i skrótowego by. Tryb ten nie ma swojej własnej morfologii, wymienionym partykułom towarzyszy dawny imiesłów czasu przeszłego lub bezokolicznik, podobnie jak w języku rosyjskim.

Tryb łączący można między innymi stosować, gdy w zdaniu nadrzędnym występuje czasownik wyrażających wolę, rozkaz, życzenie, powątpiewanie, żądanie, obawę, unikanie, np. chcę, by wysłał list w miejsce nieprawidłowego chcę, że wyśle list, lub gdy zdanie nadrzędne jest przeczące, np. nie nalegam, by wysłał list.

Cząstkę by wykorzystuje również tryb przypuszczający, jednak występują tu różne reguły składniowe, według których partykuła właściwa dla trybu łączącego musi zaczynać zdanie podrzędne."
Wikipedia


----------

