# All Slavic languages: Sibilants



## Outsider

Hi.

I would like to know which Slavic languages distinguish between apical and laminal sibilants. According to the Wikipedia, it seems that Serbian and Croatian do. How phonemically relevant is the distinction (i.e., are there many minimal pairs of words that distinguish themselves only in the fact that one has an apical and the other the corresponing laminal sibilant?) Do Slavic languages make other kinds of phonemically significant distinctions between sibilants?

Thank you for your replies.


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## natasha2000

Outsider said:
			
		

> Hi.
> 
> I would like to know which Slavic languages distinguish between apical and laminal sibilants. According to the Wikipedia, it seems that Serbian and Croatian do. How phonemically relevant is the distinction (i.e., are there many minimal pairs of words that distinguish themselves only in the fact that one has an apical and the other the corresponing laminal sibilant?) Do Slavic languages make other kinds of phonemically significant distinctions between sibilants?
> 
> Thank you for your replies.


 
I am not sure if I answer to the right question, but I will try. I am not sure that I really know the meaning of "apical" and "laminal" but As you have already seen in Wikipedia (I'm referring to the links you put), there are some sounds that look the same to all but us, Serbs. As the Wikipedia says, even Croats and Bosnians do not make clear difference between those sounds. Mainly, these are:
*đ *(it can be written like *dj,* too) and *dž*
The sound (*dž)* is something like g in English word genle, or imagine, where the tip of zour tongue is in the joint line between the teeth and gums, and it forms something like an arch downwards...
The sound (đ) is something like j in "enjoy", John Jane etc... It is a little bit softer, and although the tip of zour tongue is at the same place, the arch that it forms is not so curved, but a little bit more plane.... Well, it is very difficult to explain without being able to produce sound... Well, now the differences they make. 
Normally, in most of the words, using *dž* instead of *đ *only sounds odd, but there are also some words which differ only in this sound (letter). A pupil is said *đak*, and a sack is said *džak*. Imagine the class full of sacks and not pupils... 

Other pair can be Ć and Č, which is pronounced something like ch. Ć is more like Spanish CH, softer, and Č is harder, you know the sound at the end of Russian names for example Ivanovich, Petrovich, etc.... (Well if you have never heard how a Russian name is pronounced, then it is very hard to explain. ) These two letters (or sounds - I say sounds or letters since in my language the principle is one sound one letter, but in cirilic, in latin letters for some sounds we must use two letters, but it is like ch in Spanish, always the same), do not make vital differences between words, but for sure it sounds very, *very* strange hearing someone speaking and mixing these two letters. The person who has problems, normally uses only hard sounds (dž and č), and is unable to pronounce the soft ones (đ and ć). But there IS a difference, and in Serbia, if children do not make difference between these two, some parents can ask for help of a speech therapist...

More pairs can be S and Š, as well as Z and Ž, but these are very different and not so odd for foreigners, since these sounds exist in other languages. 
S exists in all languages.
Š is pronounced like SH in English - Shower
Z is pronounced like z in English - Zero
Ž is like in Portugese J en Joao, or in French J - jour (hope I did not make any mistake, since I don't speak these two languages )

These are divided in sound and silent ones. Sound would be S and Z and Š and Ž would be silent ones.

Sorry for not being able to answer you with more expertize, but I am not familiar with fonetics vocabulary....


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## Hryts

Natasha, I'm afriad you are not aswering the right question.

Russian has the letters Ш and Щ. Both can be described as the english Sh, but neither are exactly like it. Firstly Ш can never be palatised, whereas Щ is always palatised. I've seen a number of different IPA symbols used for Щ. Annoyingly, learner's books say it is pronounced "freSH CHeese", that is shch (which is it's offical transliteration), however there is not Ch sounds in it!!!


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## Outsider

Thank you both for your replies. 
I should have explained what I wanted better. In any case, looking at the Wikipedia's pages on Serbian, Croatian, and Bosnian, it seems that the difference is not between apical and laminal sibilants (apparently, they exist as allophones of _s_ in different dialects), but rather between alveolar and alveolo-palatal affricates. 
This is what *Natasha* mentioned in her first paragraph, _dj_ vs. _dž_, and _c_ vs. _c´_.

Two additional comments:



			
				natasha2000 said:
			
		

> More pairs can be S and Š, as well as Z and Ž, but these are very different and not so odd for foreigners, since these sounds exist in other languages.
> S exists in all languages.
> Š is pronounced like SH in English - Shower
> Z is pronounced like z in English - Zero
> Ž is like in Portugese J en Joao, or in French J - jour (hope I did not make any mistake, since I don't speak these two languages )


In portuguese, we write s, x, z, j. 



			
				Hryts said:
			
		

> Russian has the letters _sha_ and _shcha_. Both can be described as the english Sh, but neither are exactly like it. Firstly _sha_ can never be palatised, whereas _shcha_ is always palatised. I've seen a number of different IPA symbols used for _shcha_. Annoyingly, learner's books say it is pronounced "freSH CHeese", that is shch (which is it's offical transliteration), however there is not Ch sounds in it!!!


According to the Wikipedia, the letter _shcha_ stands for the sound [shch] in Ukranian, and it seems that it used to be pronounced [sht]...


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## natasha2000

Outsider said:
			
		

> Thank you both for your replies.
> I should have explained what I wanted better. In any case, looking at the Wikipedia's pages on Serbian, Croatian, and Bosnian, it seems that the difference is not between apical and laminal sibilants (apparently, they exist as allophones of _s_ in different dialects), but rather between alveolar and alveolo-palatal affricates.
> This is what *Natasha* mentioned in her first paragraph, _dj_ vs. _dž_, and _c_ vs. _c´_.
> 
> Two additional comments:
> 
> In portuguese, we write s, x, z, j.
> Curious, š is written in Catalan like X, too.... Sometimes, I see people writing my name like Nataxa, and I find it so cute...


 
Yes, I imagined this (đ-dž; ć-č) was the answer to your question, rather than the second one (s-š, etc) since these sounds do exist in other languages and people pronounce them without any problems...


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## Outsider

natasha2000 said:
			
		

> Curious, š is written in Catalan like X, too.... Sometimes, I see people writing my name like Nataxa, and I find it so cute...


And in Basque. That was the value of the x in the whole Iberian Peninsula, during the Low Middle Ages.


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## Hryts

Outsider said:
			
		

> Thank you both for your replies.
> I should have explained what I wanted better. In any case, looking at the Wikipedia's pages on Serbian, Croatian, and Bosnian, it seems that the difference is not between apical and laminal sibilants (apparently, they exist as allophones of _s_ in different dialects), but rather between alveolar and alveolo-palatal affricates.
> This is what *Natasha* mentioned in her first paragraph, _dj_ vs. _dž_, and _c_ vs. _c´_.
> 
> Two additional comments:
> 
> In portuguese, we write s, x, z, j.
> 
> According to the Wikipedia, the letter _shcha_ stands for the sound [shch] in Ukranian, and it seems that it used to be pronounced [sht]...


 
I know, I speak Ukrainian.


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## natasha2000

Outsider said:
			
		

> And in Basque. That was the value of the x in the whole Iberian Peninsula, during the Low Middle Ages.


 
Exactly. I used to see it in old Spanish texts during my studies of Spanish language...


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