# Monaco di Baviera



## Encolpius

Hello, there are not many things I dislike in Italian but it always pisses me off why they call Münich Monaco. Is there any influence of Monaco (sovereign state)? Why is it not Munico? What is the etymology of the Italian word Monaco [München]? Thanks.


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## bearded

Hello
The German name of the city is München (derived from older Mönchen meaning monk(s) due to the presence of an old monastery). So the Italian word 'monaco' (= monk) is a faithful translation. Munico does of course not exist in Italian, and it sounds wrong to our ears anyway.
The word 'monaco' comes from Greek 'monachòs' originally meaning 'lonely, lonesome' because of the solitary/remote location of ancient hermitages.
The origin of the name of the Southern-French State (Principauté de Monaco) seems to be the same, and the whole area, including Nice, was Italian some centuries ago.
Concerning pronunciation, please note that we say 'mònaco', whereas the French pronounce 'monacó' and the Germans say 'monàco' (I don't know why).


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## Ben Jamin

Encolpius said:


> Hello, there are not many things I dislike in Italian but it always pisses me off why they call Münich Monaco. Is there any influence of Monaco (sovereign state)? Why is it not Munico? What is the etymology of the Italian word Monaco [München]? Thanks.


Hello Encolpius,
The name of the city in German is *München*, in English *Munich *(a corruption of München, but without umlaut).
*München comes *from the root  *mönch *"monk" in German, which in turn comes from Latin *monachus *from Greek *monachos *(μοναχός). In Italian monk is *monaco*.


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## apmoy70

And in Greek the name of the city is *«Μόναχο(ν)»* [ˈmonaxo(n)] (neut.) < Classical nominal *«μοναχός» mŏnakʰós* --> _single_, later _monk, hermit_ < Classical nominal *«μόνος» mónŏs* --> _alone_ (PIE *mon-uo- _alone_ cf Skt. मनाक् (manāk), _merely, shortly_, Lith. menkas, _insignificant, scarce_, ToB menki, _lack_).


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## Encolpius

bearded man said:


> (derived from older Mönchen meaning monk(s) due to the presence of an old monastery)



I see now. That's why *Czechs *call it "Mnichov" [mnich - monk]
And do you know why *French *did not create their own French-sounding word (Munich does not look like being from "le moine")
And why do Bavarians call it Minga?


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## berndf

Encolpius said:


> And why do Bavarians call it Minga?


Not necessarily in that historical sequence but those or the sound changes: mʏnxən > mɪnxən > mɪŋːən > mɪŋːə > mɪŋːɐ (> mɪŋɐ)

The last step is optional. The ŋ is even today often long.


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## bearded

Encolpius said:


> do you know why *French *did not create their own French-sounding word (Munich does not look like being from "le moine")
> And why do Bavarians call it Minga


The French retained the old traditional Italian name (they changed only the stress...). I understand that _Minga _is Bavarian dialect, see #6.


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## Stoggler

Encolpius said:


> Hello, there are not many things I dislike in Italian but *it always pisses me off* why they call Münich Monaco. Is there any influence of Monaco (sovereign state)? Why is it not Munico? What is the etymology of the Italian word Monaco [München]? Thanks.



Blimey, that's rather a strong reaction, isn't it?


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## Walshie79

What do they call Bayern Munich/München then? If they translate it, must be strange when they play Monaco.


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## bearded

Walshie79 said:


> What do they call Bayern Munich/München then? If they translate it, must be strange when they play Monaco.


I'm sure they say 'Bayern München' in Germany.  In Italy the team is of course called 'Bayern Monaco'.  The addition of 'Bayern' avoids any confusion here.


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## Encolpius

Walshie79 said:


> What do they call *Bayern Munich/München* then? If they translate it, must be strange when they play Monaco.



Very interesting question.


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## rushalaim

I heard that Monaco (state) was found by Phoenicians (like Malta, Cicilia and so on). Is _"Monaco"_ Phoenician-name?


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## apmoy70

bearded man said:


> ...
> The word 'monaco' comes from Greek 'monachòs' originally meaning 'lonely, lonesome' because of the solitary/remote location of ancient hermitages.
> The origin of the name of the Southern-French State (Principauté de Monaco) seems to be the same, and the whole area, including Nice, was Italian some centuries ago...


&


rushalaim said:


> I heard that Monaco (state) was found by Phoenicians (like Malta, Cicilia and so on). Is _"Monaco"_ Phoenician-name?


Actually, according to (perhaps folk) etymology, the name of the modern Principality of Monaco derives from the name of the Ancient Greek Phocaean colony of *«Μόνοικος» Mónoikŏs* (fem.) --> _lone, isolated home_, as it was the sole 6th c. BCE Greek colony of the entire Ligurian coast. 
As I've just mentioned though, that's (perhaps) folk etymology, the name may have as well come from the same source with Munich/München.


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## Ben Jamin

apmoy70 said:


> &
> 
> Actually, according to (perhaps folk) etymology, the name of the modern Principality of Monaco derives from the name of the Ancient Greek Phocaean colony of *«Μόνοικος» Mónoikŏs* (fem.) --> _lone, isolated home_, as it was the sole 6th c. BCE Greek colony of the entire Ligurian coast.
> As I've just mentioned though, that's (perhaps) folk etymology, the name may have as well come from the same source with Munich/München.


There is a legend that the first Grimaldi ruler of the town sneaked into the town disguised as a monk.


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## hadronic

bearded man said:


> The French retained the old traditional Italian name (they changed only the stress...). I understand that _Minga _is Bavarian dialect, see #6.



French doesn't use _Monaco_ for Munich, only for the state.


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## bearded

hadronic said:


> French doesn't use _Monaco_ for Munich, only for the state.


Indeed.  I was referring to the state.
For the town, do I remember correctly that in French the name is Munich (pronounced münìk)?


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## berndf

Yes.


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## Angelo di fuoco

In Polish, Munich is called Monachium (indeclinable, for all I know). This is the most obvious etymology if you compare it with the city's names in other languages, even with the Italian Monaco.
As for the German Monàco for the Grimaldi-ruled princedom on the Côte d'Azur, I think it's a case of hypercorrection: the most frequent stress in Italian is the one on the penultimate syllable, but many Germans don't know that stress on the antepenultimate syllable is also possible. I think it's a remnant of those times when they only read the name and didn't hear it pronounced idiomatically. The French Monacò is due to the lack of real tonic stress in French.


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## bearded

Angelo di fuoco said:


> As for the German Monàco for the Grimaldi-ruled princedom on the Côte d'Azur, I think it's a case of hypercorrection: the most frequent stress in Italian is the one on the penultimate syllable, but many Germans don't know that stress on the antepenultimate syllable is also possible. I think it's a remnant of those times when they only read the name and didn't hear it pronounced idiomatically



A very plausible surmise.


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## Angelo di fuoco

Especially if you consider that in Russian, Monaco is stressed on the second syllable, too. And, what I personally find even worse, gondola - although some poets restore the first-syllable stress.


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