# Tehillim 2:12-נשקו-בר- Kiss The Son or Desire the innocent??



## OhevIvrit

According to Metzudat Tzion  in Mikroat Gedolot the words נשקו-בר would mean desire the inoocent as he defines נשקו as מלשון תשוקה וחמדה from the tongue/lashan of desire and want and בר means innocent as he says מלשון ברור ונקי from the tongue clear and innocent. So then נשקו-בר means according to the commentator desire the innocent/or one who is innocent.

Now what gets me here is that i cannot help but feel that בר here means soon and not innocent/guilt free. This is because the pasuk in full reads 

נשק-בר פן יאנף ותאבדו דרך כ-יבער כמעט אפו אשרי כל חוסי בו

Kiss the son lest Hashem will be angered and you will destroy the way for/because Hashem will almost raise his anger. Happy are those who take refuge in the son.

I just cannot see on account of the context of the Psalm how the author would have meant desire the innocent as Metzudat Tzion suggests. I know that Christian translations interpret נשק-בר as Kiss the Son as Christianity interprets this as Christological but i still cannot help feel linguistically that i may be right about נשק-בר  being Kiss the Son.

Anyone agree with or not?? please do chip in


----------



## Malki92

Just a minor note, this isn't just a Christian interpretation. You can see Ibn Ezra's commentary of the verse. He links it to Proverbs 31 then relates it back to verse 7 (in Psalm 2) ... Here is אבן עזרא's commentary on the verse, just scroll down the page - right after Rash"i.


----------



## OhevIvrit

"נשקו בר" — הנה *עבדו את ה' כנגד על ה' ונשקו בר כנגד על משיחו והנה פירוש בר כמו (משלי לא ב): "מה ברי ומה בר בטני" וכן כתוב בני אתה ומנהג גוים בעולם לשום ידיהם תחת יד המלך כאחי שלמה או העבד תחת ירך אדוניו או לנשק את המלך וזה המנהג עד היום בארץ הודו *
Behold and serve Hashem as opposite/in contrast to "Kiss the Son" and opposite his annoited and behold the interpreation "How pure and also how pure my stomach/inside"(Proverbs 31:2) and also written "My Son you are" and custom in the nations of the world to place their hands under the the hand of the King as the brother of Solomon or the Servant under the thigh of his master or to kiss the King and this is the custom until this day in India

So Yes Ibn Ezra backs up my assertion נשקו-בר means actually Kiss the Son. i guess Metzudat Tzion does not feel comfortable in understanding it as Kiss the Son due to the Christian intepretation


----------



## origumi

OhevIvrit said:


> So Yes Ibn Ezra backs up my assertion נשקו-בר means actually Kiss the Son. i guess Metzudat Tzion does not feel comfortable in understanding it as Kiss the Son due to the Christian intepretation


You provided no justification for your assertion beyond Christian missionary and this is a non-starter for discussion.


----------



## OhevIvrit

origumi said:


> You provided no justification for your assertion beyond Christian missionary and this is a non-starter for discussion.



No the reason why i asserted that נשק-בר means Kiss the Son is because נשק derives from the _Shoresh _נ-ש-ק which one of the root's meanings is to kiss, and the word בר which can mean son and the fact that the pasuk continues with 

יאנף ותאבדו דרך כ-יבער כמעט אפו אשרי כל חוסי בו

which to mean sounds like talking about a person obviously not ישו but the King's son perhaps????


----------



## origumi

OhevIvrit said:


> and the word בר which can mean son


בר = son in Aramaic, not in Hebrew. Assuming that Psalms uses here an Aramaic word requires some kind of justification.


----------



## OhevIvrit

origumi said:


> בר = son in Aramaic, not in Hebrew. Assuming that Psalms uses here an Aramaic word requires some kind of justification.



Please correct me if i am wrong but doesn't the word בר(Son) appear in ספר משלי


----------



## origumi

OhevIvrit said:


> Please correct me if i am wrong but doesn't the word בר(Son) appear in ספר משלי


No more or less Hebrew than מלכין in the following verse, Proverbs 31:3.


----------



## Diadem

בר is Aramaic, and...? There are plenty of Aramaic words in Job and other books of scripture. Is it remarkable that we find them in Psalms? Nope.

בַּר־בִּטְנִי is like בֶּן-בִטְנִי (Job 19:17; where the נסמך is plural: בְּנֵי) and בֶּן־בִּטְנָהּ (Isa. 49:15; where the סומך has a feminine possessive suffix: בִּטְנָהּ). Hence, בַּר־בִּטְנִי in Pro. 31:2 means "son of my womb." - a phrase with an established precedent. Thus, we see that בַּר can mean "son" in Psa. 2:12. 

Radak wrote that the verb נַשְּׁקוּ is like the one in Gen. 45:15 in the phrase וַיְנַשֵּׁק לְכָל־אֶחָיו ("and he kissed all his brothers"). 

As for בַּר, he considers two possibilities: (1) it is like בֵּן ("son"), citing Pro. 31:2 as proof; or, (2) בַּר ("pure, clean"), Psa. 73:1 citing as proof. It is true that it is used elsewhere in Psalms with the meaning of "pure, clean": Psa. 19:8, 24:4. However, we should consider that it is used in the sense of "pure, clean" in Pro. 14:4 but in the sense of "son" in Pro. 31:2. So, previous usages in the same book don't necessarily mean that all usages in the same book will be the same, whether the book is Proverbs or Psalms. 

If it means "son," then he says that it means "Kiss this son (זה הבן) who God called "son," as it says (Psa. 2:7), "You are My son." Then he says that the meaning of נַשְּׁקוּ is that it is a custom of the slave (העבד) to kiss the hand of [his] master (האדון)."

In consideration of that context, there may be a reason why some dismiss the translation of "son." If you read Psa. 2:11, it says, 

עִבְדוּ אֶת־יְהוָה בְּיִרְאָה וְגִילוּ בִּרְעָדָה
Serve Yahveh with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

עִבְדוּ (serve) is from the same root as העבד, the servant. Is Yahveh, whom they are commanded to serve, the same as the Son, whom they are commanded to kiss (i.e., his hand)? Even if not, those who do not kiss the Son "perish _from the_ way." This is perhaps an allusion to Psa. 1:6 where it says, "...and the way of the ungodly shall perish" (וְדֶרֶךְ רְשָׁעִים תֹּאבֵד). In other words, those who do not honor Yahveh's son perish.


----------



## origumi

Not sure what you're trying to say. בר is son in Aramaic and was borrowed to Hebrew. The medieval idea that "son" in the Bible is a prophecy for one or another future belief in a divine family/pantheon - this is beyond the forum scope I guess.


----------



## 1015780

OhevIvrit said:


> "נשקו בר" — הנה *עבדו את ה' כנגד על ה' ונשקו בר כנגד על משיחו והנה פירוש בר כמו (משלי לא ב): "מה ברי ומה בר בטני" וכן כתוב בני אתה ומנהג גוים בעולם לשום ידיהם תחת יד המלך כאחי שלמה או העבד תחת ירך אדוניו או לנשק את המלך וזה המנהג עד היום בארץ הודו *
> Behold and serve Hashem as opposite/in contrast to "Kiss the Son" and opposite his annoited and behold the interpreation "How pure and also how pure my stomach/inside"(Proverbs 31:2) and also written "My Son you are" and custom in the nations of the world to place their hands under the the hand of the King as the brother of Solomon or the Servant under the thigh of his master or to kiss the King and this is the custom until this day in India
> 
> So Yes Ibn Ezra backs up my assertion נשקו-בר means actually Kiss the Son. i guess Metzudat Tzion does not feel comfortable in understanding it as Kiss the Son due to the Christian intepretation




Hi I would like to commemd you on your research. However, I have found reason to correct your faulty understanding. First Ibn Ezra while mentioning what you had quoted above did, made a comparison with other opinions. Ibn Ezra wrote: ויש אומרים: כי נשקו – מגזרת נשק. והטעם נשקו כלי בר והנה בר כמו ברי לבב והיה ראוי להיותו בור או יהיה תקנו הבר או כלי הבר. I hope you understand Hebrew. If not here is a shortend translation. Ibn Ezra says that some say that "נשקו" is from the root "weapon" and that "בר" means "ברי לבב"  or "purity of heart". From this we understand that Ibn Ezra was displaying two opinions. Namely one being "kiss the son" and the other 'arming yourself with purity'. 

2 point is Metzudat Tzion. You mentioned that Metzudat Tzion disagreed with Ibn Ezra. Actually as discussed above, Ibn Ezra had at leat two opinions. Secondly, Metzudat Tzion translates "נשקו" as the following: מלשון תשוקה וחמדה in English meaning 'srong will/desire (willing acceptance) and pleasantness. Or perhaps in more simpler term "passion" and "delight". So in this matter Metzudat Tzion seems to suggest a similar meaning to "נשקו" as did Ibn Ezra in ome of his explanations. Metzudat Tzion does however match up with Ibn Ezra's other explanation of "בר" as Metzudat Tzion renders ot the following way: מלשון ברור ונקי meaning 'clear and clean'. Interestingly the Metzudat David agrees with the Metudat Tzion on the understanding of "נשקו בר" on the other hand, the Malbim as well as Malbim Ohr HaMilot offers a similar as well as some different perspective than the three obove mentioned sources.

Lastly, I would like to conclude by saying that there are many commentaries or explanations on this verse. I personally appreciate how the רד"ק explains all of the different interpretations. He seems to be able to unite them all and go onto another spiritual level by absorbing aspects of all the interpretations given. I encourage you to study his comments. 

Please let me know if you have any questions!


----------

