# Bench



## raptor

Hello,

Is this how you would spell the Arabic word for bench (which I believe is mastaba)?

Thanks!


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## ayed

raptor said:


> Hello,
> 
> Is this how you would spell the Arabic word for bench (which I believe is mastaba)?
> 
> Thanks!


 Yes, and there more variasions to read :
Mastabah مسطبة
MisTabbah 
MaSTabah مصطبة
MiSTabbah
sandaan سندان
sindaan


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## cherine

I don't think many people would understand منبسط مرتفع but maStaba مصطبة is more known and understood.


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## raptor

Thank you!


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## elroy

مصطبة and منسبط مرتفع mean _bench_???


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## raptor

Is it a difference between Palestinian and Egyptian Arabic?


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## elroy

Well, they _definitely _don't mean "bench" in Palestinian Arabic.  I don't know about Egyptian, but I assumed your question was about MSA, and that's what my objection was in reference to.  As far as I know, a مصطبة is a terrace or a porch, and a منبسط مرتفع is an elevated plain.


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## ayed

elroy said:


> Well, they _definitely _don't mean "bench" in Palestinian Arabic. I don't know about Egyptian, but I assumed your question was about MSA, and that's what my objection was in reference to. As far as I know, a مصطبة is a terrace or a porch, and a منبسط مرتفع is an elevated plain.


  context governs the meaning!
It may mean either an ironsmith's mistabah or a raised structure(dakkah or MiSTabah).
Click on the link to see an Ironsmith's misTabah:
http://www.cepolina.com/freephoto/f/other.objects.science/anvil.iron.smith.jpg


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## cherine

raptor said:


> Is it a difference between Palestinian and Egyptian Arabic?


I would like to remind that منبسط مرتفع is not an expression used in Egypt and that it won't be understood. When I first read it I thought it's some kind of a geographical term that I didn't know.

As for maStaba, it's very known, specially in upper and rural Egypt, where many houses have some sort of a bench in front of them, where people sit and talk. And there's a saying: كلام مصاطب for frivolous talk.

And there's also this kind of maSaateb مصاطب that we learn in History lessons. I sure don't know anything in German, I found this page while looking for a photo of a maStaba


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## elroy

ayed said:


> Click on the link to see an Ironsmith's misTabah:
> http://www.cepolina.com/freephoto/f/other.objects.science/anvil.iron.smith.jpg


 That's not a bench either. 


cherine said:


> I would like to remind that منبسط مرتفع is not an expression used in Egypt and that it won't be understood. When I first read it I thought it's some kind of a geographical term that I didn't know.


 So we agree that that's not a bench.


> As for maStaba, it's very known, specially in upper and rural Egypt, where many houses have some sort of a bench in front of them, where people sit and talk. And there's a saying: كلام مصاطب for frivolous talk.


 Can you describe this "bench" in more detail, or provide a picture?  Does it look like this?  Because that's what a bench is in English.


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## raptor

Okay, thanks!



> And there's also this kind of maSaateb مصاطب that we learn in History lessons. I sure don't know anything in German, I found this page while looking for a photo of a maStaba


 
Yeah, this is where I heard the phrase originally.  But of course, it was on a documentary about pyramids, and so didn't mention the linguistic inferrences/differences, etc.


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## Xence

raptor said:


> Hello,
> 
> Is this how you would spell the Arabic word for bench (which I believe is mastaba)?


In MSA, I would simply translate bench as مقعد (elroy's pic).
On the other hand, مصطبة would mean either a platform or a stand or a podium, etc.


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## Josh_

Benches can take many form.  Not all have armrests and backs.  Elroy linked to a picture of a park bench with armrests and a back.  Here is a more simple one, consisting of legs and a flat surface laying on top of them.  This is also a bench, specifically a workbench.  Perhaps that is what Ayed meant.  At any rate the general description of a bench is a flat surface raised off the ground (the meaning of منبسط مرتفع ).  Also, maybe it is worth noting that most benches are for the purpose of sitting on.

A dictionary I have says that a _maSTaba_ is a bench of mud, brick or concrete built up against the wall of a building (I believe this is what Cherine was describing in her post above (#9)).  

_ MaSTaba_ can also be an ancient Egyptian tomb, which apparently is named after the Arabic word for bench (the type of bench I described above) because it looks like a mud bench from a distance.   this according to the information found here:

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Mastaba


As for "park bench" (like in the picture Elroy linked to) an Arabic picture dictionary I have lists it as أريكة الحديقة . Doing an image search on Google seems to confirm this.  Xence's مقعد probably also works.

In essence, the English word 'bench' is somewhat broad and the correct Arabic translation for the word depends on context.

----------------
Edit:  In doing dome more searching I found some pictures:
http://www.alaqsa-online.com/daleel/j2/a079_2.jpg
http://www.foraqsa.com/library/images/aqsa/landmarks/mastabas/teen_mastaba.jpg

In these pictures it appears that a _maSTaba_ is a large, raised surface.  So Elroy's description of a terrace may not be to far off.  Is this what you think of whe you hear the word maSTaba, Cherine?

Also, can a maSTaba resemble a large rectangle as well, something that would look like a large brick, for people to sit on? Perhaps something like this, but attached to a house.

 If not, then the English term "bench" would not be appropriate as this refers to a rectangular object like the ones in the linked-to pictures.


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## cherine

Josh_ said:


> Here is a more simple one, consisting of legs and a flat surface laying on top of them.


This one and the one posted by Elroy are simply called أريكة or مقعد or كرسي . I'm not sure people would call them a maStaba, though it's not 100% unlikely.


> This is also a bench, specifically a workbench.


This would be a منضدة . If it is, for example, in a chemistry lab, chemists/stuends -who usually use many English terms in the work anyway- call them بنش  (bench). And the plural is benshaat بنشات 


> A dictionary I have says that a _maSTaba_ is a bench of mud, brick or concrete built up against the wall of a building (I believe this is what Cherine was describing in her post above (#9)).


Exactly. And I guess our problem here is not to find a translation for bench, but rather the other way round: to find a proper English word for maStaba. And frankly, I can't think of one 


> In essence, the English word 'bench' is somewhat broad and the correct Arabic translation for the word depends on context.


Exactly.


> In these pictures it appears that a _maSTaba_ is a large, raised surface. So Elroy's description of a terrace may not be to far off. Is this what you think of whe you hear the word maSTaba, Cherine?


No  When I hear maStaba, I think of the mud/brick bench next to a house. The big terrace is mostly a شرفة or a ساحة .


> Also, can a maSTaba resemble a large rectangle as well, something that would look like a large brick, for people to sit on? Perhaps something like this, but attached to a house.


This one looks more like a short fence with plants inside. And it's a bit too big to be a maStaba, at least the kind I know.


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## Josh_

cherine said:


> This one looks more like a short fence with plants inside. And it's a bit too big to be a maStaba, at least the kind I know.


Yeah, I looked long and hard for a picture of a mud bench in front of a house, but to no avail, so I to used a different picture of an object to sort of approximate what a maSTaba could be.  What I meant was if you take a small section of the object in that picture and imagine it in front of a house.    At any, I believe I understand what you are talking about, and in that case 'bench' would work as a general description.  We could further specify it by saying that it is a mud bench, or a bench made of mud, to clear up some confusion.  This is mainly because the average English speaker (or at least American English speaker) would think of the picture that Elroy linked to upon hearing the word "bench."

Also, I agree that that there is really not a proper word for maSTaba.  If I were translating an Arabic text into English in which the word appeared I would just use the Arabic word and include a footnote.


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## Mahaodeh

Josh, it's called a dakka (دَكَّة) and you can see it here.
 
I understand مصطبة as originally a large flattend structure such as the ones for Al Aqsa and Mastabat al-Fir'aoun, I can add to it this, which is formed of several مصاطب one on top of the other.
 
However, this and this are also called مصاطب, it's the same as the above except that it is used for agriculture on hilly areas; I don't know what it's called in English, terraced farming maybe?
 
From these one can understand why elroy associated it with a "terrace" or a "deck", he probably meant this but we misunderstood?
 
But, I also agree that garden benches are also quite commonly called مصاطب, this includes all types of benches that one sits on but does not include benches used as tables or work surfaces. At least this is how I've heard it being used.
 
My personal guess is that people started calling the دكة a مصطبة since they are close in concept, at least in the construction or design concept. Then it moved on to those made of wood (such as those in photos above) then people in most places (obviously except for Egypt) stopped using the word for dakka and kept it for benches and for the original use.

That's my 2 cents .


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## elroy

No, I meant "terrace."   See the first paragraph here.

It's obvious the word مصطبة has a multitude of meanings, but I still insist that in most cases it is not the best translation of "bench."

Furthermore, it would not have occurred to me to call the دكة pictured in Maha's link a "bench."  I don't think there's a precise word in English for that kind of thing, or if there is one, I don't know it.

And yes, the word "terrace" is used in agricultural contexts in English.  See this.


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## cherine

Mahaodeh said:


> Josh, it's called a dakka (دَكَّة) and you can see it here.



بارك الله فيك يا مها This is excatly what I was talking about, but in Egypt we call it maStaba 

We use دكة (but in Egypt, we pronounce it with a kasra: d*e*kka) for the garden benches, for school benches (although there's another word that's maybe used more: takhta تختة , and in language schools they use the foreign words ("desk" in English schools, and "pupitre" in French schools).




> But, I also agree that garden benches are also quite commonly called مصاطب, this includes all types of benches that one sits on but does not include benches used as tables or work surfaces. At least this is how I've heard it being used.



I think we have 2 points in this thread:
1- there are different meanings/usages of the word مصطبة in the different Arab countries.
2- I think we agree that "bench" is not the best equivalent for the Arabic maStaba, at least not in all context.

What do you think guys?


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## Mahaodeh

I agree with you Cherine, apparently it’s best not to use it for bench.

Elroy, sorry for being fussy, but is this and this what you would call a مصطبة or does it also include this, this and this.

The reason I'm asking is that the first two I would call masTaba, the third برندة (or طرمة in Iraq; صُفَّة in fus7a), the fourth is just a سطح while the last one would be شرفة أو بلكونة أو برندة.

I just want to understand how exactly you would understand the word. (I'm a little fussy in this, but I'm an Architect so these details interest me ).


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## Josh_

How wonderful that you found the elusive picture, Maha.  I must have spent the better part of an hour searching for a picture, but could not find one.  Too bad I was unaware of the term دكة .

At any rate, we agree that there is no English term for a مصطبة and that "bench" (by itself) is not adequate and distorts the meaning of the Arabic term, but as I said above, it can be used as a general description of the object.  And this is because the two things that all benches have in common are their being rectangular in shape and their being raised off the ground.   So if I were describing the object to someone unfamiliar with it I might say something like "a maSTaba is bench-like seat make of mud/cement..."


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