# Dravidian languages: numbers



## Lotfi MA

Hello everyone,
Could someone, please, whose native language is Dravidian to tell me the order of reading 3-digit numerals (units, tens, hundreds) in such languages; Tamil, Kannada, Telugu, and Sinhala?

Many thanks in advance.


----------



## Telugu

donno other languages but for telugu its same as in english.


----------



## linguist786

*Malayalam*:

1 - onnuh
10 - pathhu
20 - iruvathuh
30 - muppathuh
40 - nalpathuh
50 - anpathuh
60 - arupathuh
70 - ezhupathuh
80 - enpathuh
90 - thonnooru
100 - nooru
200 - Irunoor
300 - Munnoor
1000 - aayiram

Is this what you meant?


----------



## linguist786

Telugu said:
			
		

> donno other languages but for telugu its same as in english.


Even though people might use English numbers, there are still numbers specific to *Telugu* : 

1 - okati
2 - remdu
3 - mudu
10 - padi
20 - iravai 
30 - muppai 
40 - nalabai (héhé - this means "no, brother!" in Gujarati  )
50 - yaabai
60 - aravai 
70 - debbai
80 - enimabhai 
90 - tombhai
100 - nooru/vandha
200 - rendu vandalu
1000 - veyyi


----------



## linguist786

*Kannada*: 

1 - ondhu
2 - eradu
3 - mooru
10 - hatthu
20 - ippatthu
30 - moovatthu
40 - nalvatthu
50 - aivatthu
60 - aravatthu
70 - eppatthu
80 - embhatthu
90 - thombatthu
100 - nooru
1000 - saavira


----------



## linguist786

Hope all that helps by the way..


----------



## vince

Sinhala is Indo-European, not Dravidian.

What are these numbers in Tamil?


----------



## panjabigator

Vince is right, although Sinhala has a lot of characteristics of Dravidian languages...I think it has borrowed a lot from Tamil...and its script is also South Indian-like.


----------



## Pivra

linguist786 said:
			
		

> Even though people might use English numbers, there are still numbers specific to *Telugu* :
> 
> 40 - nalabai (héhé - this means "no, brother!" in Gujarati  )


 

 Ohh bai lol.  Wonder how many language uses this word.


----------



## Lotfi MA

Tons of thanks gentelmen for your kind participations.

Telugu!
Thanks, that is fair helpful.

Linguist!
I am realy appreciating all that effort you have exerted, it is indeed great. By the way, Telugu meant to say that the reading order in Telugu language is the same as in English.

Vince! 
You are right, I knew that, but I just wanted to add that language as well (how do they read, say: 27). One more thing about Sinhala I might like to know which is when and why they have substituted their own mumeral script with (Arabic numerals as western).

Panjabigator! 
That bit of information added good knowledge to me, thanks.

Now, I might be greedy to ask the same about Oriya language (how do they read, say: 27).


----------



## Telugu

linguist786 said:
			
		

> Even though people might use English numbers, there are still numbers specific to *Telugu* :
> 
> 1 - okati
> 2 - remdu
> 3 - mudu
> 10 - padi
> 20 - iravai
> 30 - muppai
> 40 - nalabai (héhé - this means "no, brother!" in Gujarati  )
> 50 - yaabai
> 60 - aravai
> 70 - debbai
> 80 - enimabhai
> 90 - tombhai
> 100 - nooru/vandha
> 200 - rendu vandalu
> 1000 - veyyi



LOL.:d u r teaching me my mother tongue.i think u dint get the quez.he asked us to give the order of reading 3.digit numerals.

for ex.if we want to read 35.in english we say 30 and then 5.
but in Hindi n German its reverse we say 5 n then 30.(fünf und dreißig).

hope u got it.


----------



## linguist786

O dear! Seems I totally misunderstood the question!


----------



## panjabigator

Good luck finding an Oriya speaker....I have only met one in my life...and she didnt know how to read it and write it...it looks like a South Indian script because of its round loopy letters, but the script is Sanskrit based.


----------



## Lotfi MA

Dear Panjabigator!
Thanks for these information, but still does not answer the question of the reading order.  I wish you or someone could.


----------



## shaloo

Ah!
After reading all the posts, i finally guess I've understood what Lofti MA wanted to know.
If i'm not wrong, the question was how to read a 3 digit numeral in the Dravidian languages(highlighted Telugu).

Well, for example, if it is, say, *344*.
We read it as, Moodu vandala Nalabhai Naalugu.


*799*: Edu vandala Tombhai Tommidi (softer t, not like the one in Tom).

*256*: Rendu vandala Yaabhai Aaru.


Hope I replied to your requirements. Anymore questions, please go ahead. 

Shalu.


----------



## shaloo

Excellent contribution, Linguist. 
But a few changes to be made. Please don't mind  



			
				linguist786 said:
			
		

> *1* - okati
> *2* - remdu -->*rendu*
> *3* - mudu -->*moodu*
> *4 - naalugu*
> *5 - ayidu*
> *6 - aaru*
> *7 - eydu* (the *ey* is pron'ced as *ay* in *say*)
> *8 - enimidi*
> *9 - tommidi*(_t_ is like the french _t_, i mean, u say it softly with the tip of ur
> tongue placed between both the rows of ur teeth)
> *10* - padi
> *20 *- iravai
> *30* - muppai
> *40* - nalabai --> *nalabhai*
> *50* - yaabai --> *yaabhai*
> *60* - aravai
> *70* - debbai -->*debbhai*
> *80 *- enimabhai --> *enabhai*
> *90* - tombhai
> *100* - nooru/vandha -->nooru is old telugu. we normally say vanda
> *200* - rendu vandalu
> *1000* - veyyi


----------



## shaloo

The numbers from 11- 20 would be:

*11 - padakondu*
*12 - pannindu*
*13 - padamoodu*
*14 - padhnaalugu*
*15 - padihenu*
*16 - padahaaru*
*17 - padiheydu*
*18 - paddhenimidi*
*19 - pantommidi*
*20 - iravai*

From here on, its same like in any other language.
*21* - iravai okati
*22* - iravai rendu
*23* - iravai moodu..........
..
..
..
..
*30* - muppai
*31* - muppai okati
*32 *- muppai rendu.......
..
..
and so on till *99*- tombhai tommidi
and *100* - vanda.


----------



## shaloo

vince said:
			
		

> What are these numbers in Tamil?


Hi again!

In Tamil,
*1 - onnu* (stress more on _*n*_. Its like u must rollback ur tongue to its best)
*2 - rendu*
*3 - moonu* (_*n*_ is pron'ced same as above)
*4 - naalu*
*5 - anji*
*6 - aaru *
*7 - eylu*
*8 - embattu* (soft *t*, like clasping the tip of ur tongue between both the rows of of ur teeth)
*9 - tombattu* (soft *t*)
*10 - pattu* (soft *t*)remember, not like in tom


----------



## Becker

Lotfi MA said:
			
		

> Hello everyone,
> Could someone, please, whose native language is Dravidian to tell me the order of reading 3-digit numerals (units, tens, hundreds) in such languages; Tamil, Kannada, Telugu, and Sinhala?
> 
> Many thanks in advance.


 
As someone mentioned above, Sinhalese is not a Dravidian language, it is an Indo-Aryan language. Sinhalese and Divehi (from the Maldives) are seperated from their sister Indo-Aryan languages by a huge belt of Dravidian languages in Southern India and have been for quite a while. I've read that Sinhalese is the oldest spoken Indo-Aryan language. The "ae" in the words below is said exactly as "a" the English "actually" and is apparently a sound not found in any other South Asian language.




			
				panjabigator said:
			
		

> Vince is right, although Sinhala has a lot of characteristics of Dravidian languages...I think it has borrowed a lot from Tamil...and its script is also South Indian-like.


 
What are these "lot of characteristics"?


In Sinhalese, the numerals are:

1 - eka
2 - deka
3 - tuna 
4 - hatara
5 - paha
6 - haya
7 - hata
8 - ata
9 - namaya
10 - dahaya
20 - vissa
30 - tiha
40 - hataliha
50 - panaha
60 - haeta
70 - haettaewa
80 - asuuwa
90 - anuuwa
100 - seeya


355 would be tun-seeya-panas-paha literally three-hundred-fifty-five

125 would be eka-seeya-visi-paha literally one-hundred-twenty-five

897 would be ata-seeya-anuu-hata literally eight-hundred-ninety-seven

Hope that helps Lotfi MA!


----------



## starsiege

shaloo said:


> Hi again!
> 
> In Tamil,
> *1 - onnu* (stress more on _*n*_. Its like u must rollback ur tongue to its best)
> *2 - rendu*
> *3 - moonu* (_*n*_ is pron'ced same as above)
> *4 - naalu*
> *5 - anji*
> *6 - aaru *
> *7 - eylu*
> *8 - embattu* (soft *t*, like clasping the tip of ur tongue between both the rows of of ur teeth)
> *9 - tombattu* (soft *t*)
> *10 - pattu* (soft *t*)remember, not like in tom



i like this list but there are some corrections as to the correct pronunciation of the numbers i would like to make.

1 Onru 
2 Irendu
3 Moonru
4 nanku
5 "i" "n"thu (pronounced as I + N + "thu")
6 aaru
7 eylu
8 Ettu
9 Onpathu
10 Patthu


the correct method to pronounce numbers 8, and 9 are still not fully agreed upon, so your way of pronouncing them is correct too. 

It might surprise you to see that almost 70% of the numbers are pronounced differently in my list. i believe that this is the correct way of pronouncing them as agreed upon by most Tamil scholars (i might be wrong i hasten to add). also, incidentally, the list i posted was the way its pronounced amongst the Srilankan Tamils.

i know for sure that "onnu" "moonu" "anji" are very wrong, even though thats how most Indian Tamils pronounce them. i was somewhat surprised to hear thats what Microsoft's Encarta Encyclopedia pronounces them too, but as the voice for that was done by an Indian software engineer who works for Microsoft, im not surprised that he pronounced it "onnu" "moonu" "anji". its not the correct way.

apart from that, thanks for posting the list


----------



## Lotfi MA

Shalu, Becker and starsiege.
very grateful to every one of you, though I was notified of Shalu’s last and Becker’s posts just this day.​By the way, Becker, I know that the local Senhala numerals (0 to 9) have not been in use decades age, so could you provide me with a picture of the old local Senhala numerals?


----------



## siddusom

Some clarification...
The two Tamil numerations are both correct.
Starsiege's is more common in scholarly and literary (i.e. the proper form) of Tamil.

In Tamilnadu, the rift exists between spoken and literary (not so much in Tri Lanka, big respect for those people) and people have to get the "zh" sound, somewhat like the ya sound, with your tongue bent backwards. It's very South-Indian and it hardly exists anywhere else.
People substitute by making the "l" sound, which is incorrect.
So, 
7= ezhu (not eylu)
It also exists in Malayalam
If you notice 70, in linguist786's list on malayalam for 70 = ezhupathu (same in tamil),
pronounced the same way. You should search that character, and it's incorporated in the word Tamil as well==> tamizh
ழ (zha) ழா(zhaa)
தமிழ் (thamizh)

and as far as numbering goes,
it works the same way as english, right to left
1050- aayirathi einbathu


----------



## panjabigator

This L sound that you mention is the retroflex L, which is also characteristic of Panjabi, Gujarati, and Marathi.


----------



## Lotfi MA

siddusom said:


> and as far as numbering goes,
> it works the same way as english, right to left
> 1050- aayirathi einbathu


 
Dear siddusom,
You mean left to right?
Thanks for the clarification.


----------



## ravivararo

Lotfi MA said:


> Hello everyone,
> Could someone, please, whose native language is Dravidian to tell me the order of reading 3-digit numerals (units, tens, hundreds) in such languages; Tamil, Kannada, Telugu, and Sinhala?
> 
> Many thanks in advance.



As far as 9 in Tamil is concerned, there is another word toṇṭu available, 

However there are changes in the world
counting system based upon 1) Counting by Pairs 2)Neo - 2 – counting,3) 4 count and 12 count
5)The 5 - 10 and 5 - 20 systems (20 count in Western Europe), 6)The 10 - 60 system.

Due to that effect, usage of Tondu for the numerical value 9 is renounced. For 9, the word onbathu was invented giving the meaning one reduced from 10.

However, Telugu word Tommidhi is wrongly derived from the Tamil words Thondu (9)+Pathu
(10)-> Thonbathu->Thombadhi->Thommidhi. Again this is reflected as Enimidhi for 8 (as in
Tamil En means 8+ Pathu means 10). En+Pathu->(Enpathu)->Enimidhi (wrong derivation in Telugu. For the value 80, it is enabadhi or enabhai).

In Dravidian languages esp Tamil, the Primary counting is based upon 10 System. Pathu (1*10), irupathu (2*10), Muppathu (3*10), Narpathu (4*10), Aimpathu (5*10), Arupathu, (6*10), Ezhupathu(7*10), Enbathu (8*10). but for 90, it is ToNNooRu(100)- (a Value before 100).
With regard to Counting of 10 to 90, In Sanskrit, Latin, Irish, Russian, Greek,
Avestan languages, it is based upon 100 (centa, Konta and sat Format).
Twenty: Armenian k'san, Albanian njëzet/njizet, Gaulish vocontio, Greek eikosi,
Avestan visaiti, Irish fiche/fiche, Kashmiri vuh, Latin vīgintī, Persian /bēst, Kamviri
vici, Russian dvjenadsat', Sanskrit viṅśati, Tocharian wiki/ikäṃ, Welsh ugain. These
words are derived as Dvi(2)+Satam(100)->Dvisatam->Dvimsati->Vimsati)
Thirty:Latin trīgintā, Greek triákonta, Irish /tríocha, Russian trinadsat', Sanskrit
triṅśat (Thri (3)+Satam (100)->Trisati)
Forty:Latin quadrāgintā, Greek tessarákonta, Russian četyrnadsat', Sanskrit
catvāriṅśat (Catur (4)+Satam (100)-> catvāriṅśat)
Fifty:Latin quinquāgintā, Greek pentêkonta, Irish /caoga, Russian pjatnadsat',
Sanskrit pañcāśat (Pamcha (5)+Satam (100)-> pañcāśat
Sixty:Latin: sexāgintā, Greek exêkonta, Irish /seasca, Russian šestnadsat', Sanskrit
ṣaṣṭih (Sas (6)+Satam (100)->ṣaṣṭih
Seventy:Latin septuāgintā, Greek heptákonta, Irish /seachtó, Russian semnadsat',
Sanskrit saptatih (Sapta (7)+Satam (100)->saptatih
Eighty:Latin octāgintā, Greek ogdôkonta, Irish /ochtó, Russian (v)osemnadsat',
Sanskrit aśītih (Ashta (8)+Satam (100)->aśītih
Ninety: Latin nonāgintā, Greek ennenêkonta, Irish /nócha, Russian devjatnadsat',
Sanskrit navatih (Nava (9)+Satam (100)->navatih )

except from 11 to 19, the counting System in English is similar to Tamil, Telugu, and other
languages.
ty (10)
suffix representing "ten" in cardinal numbers (sixty, seventy, etc.), from O.E. -tig, from a Gmc. root (cf. Du. -tig, O.Fris. -tich, O.N. -tigr, O.H.G. -zig, -zug, Ger. -zig) that existed as a distinct word in Gothic tigjus, O.N. tigir "tens, decades." English, like many other Germanic languages,
retains traces of a base-12 number system. The most obvious instance is eleven and twelve which ought to be the first two numbers of the "teens" series. Their Old English forms, enleofan and twel(eo)f(an), are more  transparent: "leave one" and "leave two." Old English also had hund endleofantig for "110" and hund twelftig for "120." One hundred was hund teantig. The -tig formation ran through 12 cycles, and could have bequeathed us numbers *eleventy ("110") and *twelfty ("120") had it endured, but already during the O.E. period it was being obscured.
O.N. used hundrað for "120" and þusend for "1,200." Tvauhundrað was "240" and þriuhundrað was "360." Older Germanic legal texts distinguished a "common hundred" (100) from a "great hundred" (120). This duodecimal system, according to one authority, is "perhaps due to contact
with Babylonia."
இருபொ்ொு [20]+ஒன்று[1] ->இருபொ்ொொொன்று
Twenty [20] +one[1]->Twenty one
ఇరవ[20]+ఒకట[1]-> ఇరవ            ై ఒకట
     ై
But in Sanskrit, the count is in disorder.
एकाििमशिि [21]
एक [1]+ ििमशिि [20] {Dvi(2)+Satam(100)->Dvisatam->Dvimsati->Vimsati 20}-> एकाििमशिि [21],
as in the case of English Thirteen [3(Three)+10 (Ten/Teen)=13].

Almost all Indo European languages lost the initial "t" in Twenty (20).
Twenty:Armenian k'san, Albanian njëzet/njizet, Gaulish vocontio, Greek eikosi, Avestan visaiti, Irish fiche/fiche, Kashmiri vuh, Latin vīgintī, Persian /bēst, Kamviri vici, , Sanskrit viṅśati, Tocharian wiki/ikäṃ, Welsh ugain except Germnic Group as evidenced in the English language and Russian (dvjenadsat'). 

Twenty:O.E. twentig "group of twenty," from twegen "two" (see two) + -tig "group of ten" (see
-ty (1)). Cognate with O.Fris. twintich, Du. twintig, O.H.G. zweinzug, Ger. zwanzig. Goth. twai
tigjus is even more transparent: lit. "two tens as இருபொு (இரண்டு+பொ்ொு)

Latin: Inti, Ginta from Centa (Kenta), Greek: ákonta/êkonta from hekaton, (centam languages) and Sanksrit: śat from śata. (satam Language).
The dazati (10) is not attested in these languages. unlike Tamil and English languages (ஒரு, இரு, மூூ, நான, ஐ, அறு, எழு, எண், ொொொள், twe, third, for, fif), Sanksrit could not further create abbreviation forms for these numerals (ஒரு, இரு, மூூ, நான, ஐ, அறு, எழு, எண்,
ொொொள், twe, thir, for, fif). Therefore in Tamil and English languages, the numeric format is 20+1, 30+1 etc. But in Sanskrit, it is 1+20, 2+20.... or 1+30, 2+30.... etc In Sanskrit, the counting system format should be trimsata eka (30+1), etc. but the case is different in Skt

 i.e. ékatrimshat (1+30), dvaatrimshat (2+30)፣ tráyastrimshat(3+30)፣
cátustrimshat(4+30)፣ páñcatrimshat (5+30), unlike English counting system [Thirty one
(30+1), Thirty Two(30+2), Thirty three (30+3)] and/or Tamil counting System
[முப்பொ்ொொொன்று (30+1), முப்பொ்ொிரண்டு(30+2), முப்பொ்ொி மூூன்று(30+3)].
                                                        ூ
Numerals in Latin representing cardinal values that are eight more (two less) than a multiple of ten are constructed literally as:
duo (“‘two’”) + dē (“‘from’”) + multiple of ten
Thus, the numeral for 38 is normally written as duodēquadrāgintā (“‘two from forty’”), rather than as the expected trīgintā octō (“‘thirty-eight’”) or octō et trīgintā (“‘eight and thirty’”). compare tamil and Telugu words Eight and nine (enimindhi, Thommidhi and onbadhu). The latter two additive forms are possible, but are not found in Classical Latin as frequently as the subtractive form.
Numerals representing cardinal values that are nine more (one less) than a multiple of ten are constructed literally as:
ūnūs (“‘one’”) + dē (“‘from’”) + multiple of ten
Thus, the numeral for 39 is normally written as ūndēquadrāgintā (“‘one from forty’”), rather than as the expected trīgintā novem (“‘thirty-nine’”) or novem et trīgintā (“‘nine and thirty’”). The latter two additive forms are possible, but are not found in Classical Latin as frequently as
the subtractive form.
Tens +8 ( or –2 ) Tens +9 ( or –1 )
18 XVIII duodēvīgintī 19 XIX ūndēvīgintī
28 XXVIII duodētrīgintā 29 XXIX ūndētrīgintā
38 XXXVIII duodēquadrāgintā 39 XXXIX ūndēquadrāgintā
48 XLVIII duodēquīnquāgintā 49 XLIX ūndēquīnquāgintā
58 LVIII duodēsexāgintā 59 LIX ūndēsexāgintā
68 LXVIII duodēseptuāgintā 69 LXIX ūndēseptuāgintā
78 LXXVIII duodēoctōgintā 79 LXXIX ūndēoctōgintā
88 LXXXVIII duodēnōnāgintā 89 LXXXIX ūndēnōnāgintā
98 XCVIII nōnāgintā octō 99 XCIX ūndēcentum
Though the word decade or dasati means ten, Nowhere the words Latin decem, Greek deka,
Sanskrit daśa used in the following counting.
thirty Latin trīgintā, Greek triákonta, Sanskrit triṅśat
forty Latin quadrāgintā, Greek tessarákonta, Sanskrit catvāriṅśat
fifty Latin quinquāgintā, Greek pentêkonta, Sanskrit pañcāśat

In the following cases, Skt is also not using the sata format (uniclaimed dasati format) and but using ṭi, and ti format, thereby showing prakrit (/derivation) irregular character.
sixty Latin sexāgintā, Greek exêkonta, Sanskrit ṣaṣṭih
seventy Latin septuāgintā, Greek heptákonta, Sanskrit saptatih
eighty Latin octāgintā, Greek ogdôkonta, Sanskrit aśītih
ninety Latin nonāgintā, Greek ennenêkonta, Sanskrit navatih.
Latin: Ginta is derived from Centa 100 (Kenta), Greek: ákonta/êkonta is derived from hekaton 100, (centam languages) and Sanksrit: śat/śati/ti/ṭi is derived from śata.

In fact the structure of the word on-patu (nine) itself indicates that it was onru before pattu (one before ten), so 9.if u see the roman numerals , ten is X and nine is IX i.e one less than tamil>>
Not only in Tamil, but also in Latin and Skt, the counting system is changed.
19 návadashan or ekonavimshatí or uunavimshatí or ekaannavimshatí The words "ekona=eka
+ uuna"; "uuna" and "ekaanna=ekaan + na" mean "minus one". "Vimshatí" means "twenty". So, the idea is "twenty minus one=19". 
29 návavimshati or ekonatrimshat or uunatrimshat or ekaannatrimshat The words "ekona=eka + uuna"; "uuna" and "ekaanna=ekaan + na" mean "minus one". "Trimshát" means "thirty". So, the idea is "thirty minus one=29".
39 návatrimshat or ekonacatvaarimshát or uunacatvaarimshát or ekaannacatvaarimshát
49 návacatvaarimshat or ekonapañcaashát or uunapañcaashát or ekaannapañcaashát
59 návapañcaashat or ekonasasti or uunasasti or ekaannasasti
69 návasasti or ekonasaptatí or uunasaptatí or ekaannasaptatí
79 návasaptati or ekonaashiití or uunaashiití or ekaannaashiití The words "ekona=eka + uuna";
"uuna" and "ekaanna=ekaan + na" mean "minus one". "Ashiití" means "eighty". So, the idea is "eighty minus one=79".
89 Ekaennvit The words "ekona=eka + uuna"; "uuna" and "ekaanna=ekaan + na" mean "minus one". "Navatí" means "ninety". So, the idea is "ninety minus one=89".
99 návanavati or ekonashatá or uunashatá or ekaannashatá The words "ekona=eka + uuna";
"uuna" and "ekaanna=ekaan + na" mean "minus one". "Shatá" means "one hundred". So, the idea is "one hundred minus one=99".


----------



## Lotfi MA

Thank you very much indeed, ravivararo for this informative reply.I may refer to you later on, if you do not mind, with my gratitude.


----------

