# Πάντα τα έρποντα word order



## dwana49

Hello!  I am composing a song in Greek to the text of excerpts of Psalm 69.  I originally composed the ending in English and then decided to change it to Greek. The line in question is verse 34:

Αινεσάτωσαν αυτόν οι ουρανοί και η γη, θάλασσα, και πάντα τα έρποντα εν αυτή!
Let the heavens and earth praise him, the sea, and everything that moveth therein (creep in it)!

The way I set the text, "πάντα τα έρποντα" is a little awkward.  If I changed the word order to "έρποντα τα πάντα" would I be making confusion or worse, a laugh-worthy mistranslation?  Thanks for considering.

:-Dan


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## Acestor

Hi, Dan. The latter I'm afraid. The specific word order is not acceptable in Greek, not even in the strange rearrangements that poetry will allow.


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## artion

It was not that bad, Dan. Good try. The main problem is that "erponta" refers to animals like serpents and warms. Do you really have to use this word? If so, " πάντα τα έρποντα εν αυταίς" is correct. (αυταίς is plural female, referring to the earth and the sea. The sky is neutral)
The original is "_Ας αινεσωσιν αυτον οι ουρανοι και η γη, αι θαλασσαι και παντα τα κινουμενα εν αυταις_."  
Υou can avoid "kinoumena" and "erponta" by using "ζώντα" (living creatures). i.e. "... αι θάλασσαι και πάντα τα ζώντα". 
Are you trying to brake the phrase in two rhyming verses? If yes, we can find a proper rearrangement of the phrase, like ".... ουρανοί .... γη" or "...γης ... αυτής" etc.


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## dwana49

Sorry for not replying in a timely manner, like you guys did.  Thanks Acestor for letting me know about that.

Artion: first of all, I didn't even notice it had rhymed!  Good catch.  The way I composed the setting does not take that into account so it's totally okay that they don't rhyme (although it would be bonus points if it did!).  So you're saying that "therein" (εν αυτή/αυταίς) refers to not only the sea but also the earth and sky?  That makes sense, just the way the English version had it, the sea seemed separated from the earth and sky.

Now that I think of it, κινούμενα actually is just the right syllables for my setting.  Έρποντα means worms and creepy things creeping, κινούμενα means things moving in general and ζώντα means normal living things moving? Is that an accurate comparison?

Can you tell me the difference between your "original" and whatever text I've been using?  I can't post the URL but it's from a site called Study Bible.

One more thing: this is the Bible so it should traditionally be read with the Ancient Greek pronunciation right?  I have been looking into the Ancient vs. Modern pronunciation systems and believe that the Modern sounds are better suited to singing (fuller consonant sounds, digraphs read as single vowels not diphthongs).  Would it be weird to sing the Ancient Greek with Modern pronunciation?  Do modern Greeks even understand Ancient Greek?  I'm American and my choir is traveling to Greece this winter, where I hope for us to sing this song, so I want to tie up every possible loose end! 

Thanks for all your helpful suggestions!
:-Dan


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## Δημήτρης

> One more thing: this is the Bible so it should traditionally be read  with the Ancient Greek pronunciation right?  I have been looking into  the Ancient vs. Modern pronunciation systems and believe that the Modern  sounds are better suited to singing (fuller consonant sounds, digraphs  read as single vowels not diphthongs).  Would it be weird to sing the  Ancient Greek with Modern pronunciation?  Do modern Greeks even  understand Ancient Greek?  I'm American and my choir is traveling to  Greece this winter, where I hope for us to sing this song, so I want to  tie up every possible loose end!


The Bible is not written in Classical Greek, but in Koiné Greek, a phase of the language closer to Modern Greek, even in terms of pronunciation (not exactly the same though).
The Bible in Greece is read using the modern pronunciation and Greeks are not used in any older versions (they would probably not recognize them as Greek).
As for Greeks capability of understanding Ancient Greek... It's an acquirable skill, but don't expect that an educated Greek will be able to understand a song in Ancient Greek (even with the modern pronunciation). Koiné though it's more easily understood


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## dwana49

So Greeks won't be able to understand the words in the Psalm text I take it?  And Modern pronunciation would be appropriate?

Another syllable question: the first part, αιντεσάτωσαν αυτόν, is there any way to elide or shorten or otherwise get a syllable out of that phrase?


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## Perseas

dwana49 said:


> So Greeks won't be able to understand the words in the Psalm text I take it?


They would be able to understand some words and phrases but not the overall meaning of a greater extract.



> And Modern pronunciation would be appropriate?


I think yes. It is the only pronunciation we learn at schools.



> Another syllable question: the first part, αιντεσάτωσαν αυτόν, is there any way to elide or shorten or otherwise get a syllable out of that phrase?


 It's "αινεσάτωσαν".
If you want to cling to this form of Greek, no; I think not.


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## dwana49

Perseas said:


> It's "αινεσάτωσαν".
> If you want to cling to this form of Greek, no; I think not.


Oops yeah I added an extra T in there.  Is there a less formal conjugation then that would maybe be shorter while still conveying the same meaning?


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## Perseas

In modern Greek it could be "ας τον υμνήσουν/επαινέσουν οι ουρανοί..." .


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## Acestor

Hi, again

  I’m glad we all agree that the pronunciation should be as in Modern Greek.  What you will use depends very much on what you wish to convey to your audience. I find two ‘official’ versions of this line and I’ve added the accent pattern:

  Αινεσάτωσαν αυτόν οι ουρανοί και η γη, θάλασσα και πάντα τα έρποντα εν αυτοίς. (Septuagint, 68:35)
  [enesátosan aftón – i uraní ke i gí – thálassa – ke pánda ta érponda – enaftís]

  Ας αινέσωσιν αυτόν οι ουρανοί και η γη, αι θάλασσαι και πάντα τα κινούμενα εν αυταίς. (Modern Greek Bible)
  [as enésosin aftón – i uraní ke i gí – e thálasse – ke pánda ta kinúmena – enaftés]

  On the other hand, if there is a specific metre to adhere to, you –or we– might try a modern adaptation of the line. But you’d have to give us an idea of the required metre.


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## artion

Greeks who have average education or go frequently to church will perfectly understand it if is in modern pronounciation.

If you thing "ainesatosan" is too long, (and admittedly is), you can shorten it by using the hortative "αινείται" (pronounce "enIte"). The meaning is the same and actually better understood as it is frequently used in the Service.

"Kinoumena" is better as it refers to all kinds of animals and human. 
"Ζώντα" can be used instead of "kinoumena". Can be shortened to "Αινείτε *Α*υτόν οι ουρανοί, η γη και η θάλασσα, και πάντα τα ζώντα (εν αυταίς)" 
The meaning is the same as in the original and will be recognizable as a common ecclesiastical/liturgical phrase even by those who don't know the original. 
Don't bother about the ancient pronounciation. Nobody knows how it was. Use the modern and it's fine. 
Here you get an idea how it sounds in the Gr. Service the "Αινείτε αυτόν" (0:24 and 0:30):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHwXWMaY2cg&feature=related
Καλή τύχη.


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