# Where's the X in espresso? especially?



## jniec

I've been hearing "I'll have an ex-presso" and "ex-specially" (from native speakers)

I surmise that some people get the  e - s - p  pronunciation confused with e - x - p in the word "express."

Are these trends, or is it just a unique set of errors?  Is there a speach impediment that would cause this mispronunciation?

Any thoughts?


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## jacinta

jniec said:
			
		

> I've been hearing "I'll have an ex-presso" and "ex-specially" (from native speakers)
> 
> I surmise that some people get the  e - s - p  pronunciation confused with e - x - p in the word "express."
> 
> Are these trends, or is it just a unique set of errors?  Is there a speach impediment that would cause this mispronunciation?
> 
> Any thoughts?



Well, my dictionary has two spellings for this word:  espresso and expresso.
I personally say espresso, with the s sound.  I guess it's a matter of personal choice.  Either one is correct.


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## Outsider

jniec said:
			
		

> I've been hearing "I'll have an ex-presso" and "ex-specially" (from native speakers)
> 
> I surmise that some people get the  e - s - p  pronunciation confused with e - x - p in the word "express."
> 
> Are these trends, or is it just a unique set of errors?  Is there a speach impediment that would cause this mispronunciation?
> 
> Any thoughts?


The thing with _espresso_ is that it's an Italian word which means "e*x*press". So it's not surprising that English speakers feel tempted to customize it to their own language.


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## jniec

Then what do you say about 
Ex-specially?

Have you heard it pronounced that way?


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## Outsider

I've never noticed people pronouncing "especially" that way. It would seem to be the result of a fawlty analogy with all the other words that begin with "exp-".


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## Axl

jniec said:
			
		

> Then what do you say about
> Ex-specially?
> 
> Have you heard it pronounced that way?



I would say that it is merely an error.  Or somebody trying to be 'hip'.
I can't say I've ever heard it pronounced that way, except by young children.  Is it something you've heard often?

Axl.


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## timpeac

jniec said:
			
		

> Then what do you say about
> Ex-specially?
> 
> Have you heard it pronounced that way?


 
Another vote for the "never heard it" group.


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## rpleimann

Outsider said:
			
		

> I've never noticed people pronouncing "especially" that way. It would seem to be the result of a fawlty analogy with all the other words that begin with "exp-".




Actually, my mother says "expecially," and it drives me crazy!  She also says "feesh" and "weesh" for fish and wish, and "worsh" for wash.  I think it may be dialect thing, because she is a very intelligent, educated woman.    She was born near Toledo, Ohio.


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## timpeac

rpleimann said:
			
		

> Actually, my mother says "expecially," and it drives me crazy! She also says "feesh" and "weesh" for fish and wish, and "worsh" for wash. I think it may be dialect thing, because she is a very intelligent, educated woman. She was born near Toledo, Ohio.


 
Funny that because I heard her the other day speaking perfectly normally, but complaing how her daughter is so deaf she mishears everything she says...


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## jniec

rpleimann said:
			
		

> Actually, my mother says "expecially," and it drives me crazy!  She also says "feesh" and "weesh" for fish and wish, and "worsh" for wash.  I think it may be dialect thing, because she is a very intelligent, educated woman.    She was born near Toledo, Ohio.



OK, one of the people I know who says eX-specially is from Iowa.  Could this be a mid-west (America) thing?


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## te gato

jniec said:
			
		

> Then what do you say about
> Ex-specially?
> 
> Have you heard it pronounced that way?


 
Hey jniec;
It is not pronounced with the X here in Alberta...

te gato


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## aigle491

I'm from Pennsylvania and I have never heard "eX-specially" but I say "eX-presso.


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## DesertCat

Being originally from the Pacific Northwest where espresso practically became a cult (just kidding) I cringe when I hear it pronounced expresso.  I believe it's incorrect.    Incidentally, my dictionary only shows it pronounced with the s.


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## mjscott

Living PRESENTLY in the Pacific Northwest, espresso is not just a cult--it is a religion! My cousin could not believe when he moved here from Sacramento California that every little 7-11, every little RocketMart, Conoco and Ma and Pa's gas station where you can get a corn dog or a slim Jim (jerkey stick) also had an espresso stand.

All that business on the TV show Frazier, with the vanilla latte made with soy milk, supercharged with skinny caramel and heated, but not steamed; is a part of everyday life!

I was also indignant when ordering a mocha in California, and they got the espresso out of the refrigerator and put it in the microwave to heat up before adding the chocolate. _What? I don't get to see you grind up the beans and pour in the Evian water in the process?_

Watching someone make your espresso is almost as sacred as a Japanese tea ritual!

PS: Here in the US we can buy coffee beans and we can buy ground coffee in an airtight bag or can. We started grinding our beans about 25 or so years ago, when a person who worked with my husband said that he had to grind his coffee beans because he was allergic to cockroaches....

....I'll let you ruminate on that one.


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## ag228

Outsider said:


> The thing with _espresso_ is that it's an Italian word which means "e*x*press". So it's not surprising that English speakers feel tempted to customize it to their own language.



Espresso means 'Pressed out' in italian. There is nothing express about it... You have to grind beans and put them through a machine that puts serious pressure to boiling water that comes through the beans. If you want express coffee try nescafe with boiled water.

The proper way to say it is espresso or caffe with the flick on the e.

Expresso is from people saying it wrong.. But its easier to say so has been accepted as another word for espresso.


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## ewhite

I've never heard ex-pecially, but I am often subjected to ex-cape.


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## Einstein

When espresso coffee began to arrive in Britain after World War II a lot of people said "expresso" simply because they were used to talking about express trains and express mail. My impression is that we've got over that now.
As for "expecially", I've heard it only from Italians who study English; they are used to the fact that in many cases English has an "x" (expand, explode) where the Italian equivalent has an "s" and they assume it must always be so.


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## Myridon

ag228 said:


> Espresso means 'Pressed out' in italian. There is nothing express about it...


Express means "press out" in English as well.  From the Word Reference Dictionary:


> express
> verb
> ...
> 2 press out (liquid or air).


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## Tunalagatta

See also _axe_/ask(a completely different case).


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## George French

http://www.wordreference.com/definition/expresso states it is variant spelling of espresso.

Rightly or wrongly I use the X version, I think, but then I have just had a nice glass of wine....  and I have no idea when I last wrote or spoke it or even read it (either version)......

It was always pronounced with an X, wasn't it? 

GF..

Just give me a cup of coffee.....


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## Nenio

I believe "pressed out" and "express" are very similar, and saying "expresso" is a very intuitive sort of mistake. 
Correct me if I'm wrong but "ex-" in Latin means "out", doesn't it? So "pressed out" = "ex-pressed"? 
I'm not sure the "ex" sound exists in Italian, but perhaps people just tend to replace it where it should have been, somehow, and saying "espresso" is simply a further acknowledgement of the Italian origins of the drinks...


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## sdgraham

George French said:


> It was always pronounced with an X, wasn't it?



Not in its homeland. It's just another bastardization of somebody else's language like kindergarden  and chaise lounge , which have become entrenched in English.


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## Copperknickers

I speak Italian, but I still say 'expresso' because its the way people understand it best here. Its because, being a foreign word, people don't know how its spelled, so they say it how they think its spelled.


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## Phil-Olly

Einstein said:


> When espresso coffee began to arrive in Britain after World War II a lot of people said "expresso" simply because they were used to talking about express trains and express mail. My impression is that we've got over that now.



I agree, and I'm sure that, back then, we went to Expresso Bars - and that's how it was spelled.  There was even a Cliff Richard film called "Expresso Bongo".  Those days, if you ordered an expresso, you would get what we now recognise as a cappuccino.

With the renaissance of Italian coffee in the UK in the eighties (I think), we learned that espresso was black and had no "x" - or was it only those of us who considered ourselves to be coffee snobs/ Italophiles?


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## Einstein

Phil-Olly said:


> Those days, if you ordered an expresso, you would get what we now recognise as a cappuccino.


I wasn't sure about this because I was only a kid at the time; thanks for confirming my suspicion! And I also vaguely remembered the Expresso Bongo film but I had no idea whether coffee came into it.


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## JuicyJew

I've never heard "expresso" or "expecially" in my life. 

Both sound ridiculous. Like people who say aks instead of ask. Or nuculear instead of nuclear.


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## JulianStuart

The Latin root is exprimere (to press out) and its past participle is expressus. One could make the argument that expresso is etymologically "more" correct and espresso is a modern variant 
I wonder when Italian changed from the x to the s.
If you insist on using the word from the original language from the era when it was coined, espresso will do you fine.
I had forgotten about both Cliff Richard and the film 

The meaning of express rapid is a much later evolution from the railway era!


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## Einstein

JuicyJew said:


> I've never heard "expresso" or "expecially" in my life.
> 
> Both sound ridiculous. Like people who say aks instead of ask. Or nuculear instead of nuclear.



They probably do sound ridiculous if you've never heard them! But when you hear them a lot, whether ridiculous or not, the point is to understand where these mistakes come from.


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## JuicyJew

Can i just add, if some people don't like using english words borrowed from other languages, then rather than the childspeak of "expresso", it would make more sense to say "expressed coffee".

I don't think there is much mystery about the idea that some people just mispronounce things. Whatever the cause, I think the point is to understand what is correct.


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## Cayenarama

I'd write 'espresso' but I say 'expresso'. Can't help it, just comes out that way.


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## JulianStuart

Ahh, but what is considered "correct" varies from time to time, place to place, and group to group.  Like spelling and capitalization of I and English!
Are you seriously saying the generation of Cliff Richard's era used "childspeak"?


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## JuicyJew

The cause of both is ignorance, it's all much the same. And sorry I use an iphone and I'm lazy with my capitalisation haha.


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## Tunalagatta

We should probably all aim to pronounce words like _espresso _as accurately as we can, but inevitably we will fall short, even if we do pronounce it with an_ s _and not an _x _sound.

There is a certain stigma attached to saying foreign words correctly (people might think you are, or should I say, one is, being pretentious), so sometimes it's better to follow the herd and not draw too much attention to oneself. For example, I still call the dish _spaghetti *bo-lo-NEIZ*_ (bolognese), not _*bo-lo-GNE-ze*_, or better still, _spaghetti con ragù_, because I feel a bit silly if I'm talking to a non-Italian.


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## JuicyJew

I don't really care much, but as a rule of thumb, basically I think there is a difference between having an accent, and just making no attempt to pronounce something correctly.  Why bother trying to change yourself to fit in with people who don't know in the area you happen to be in? If you come here to australia where our culture was largely shaped by italian immigration, the norm is to be culturally aware and pronounce things the right way.


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## CapnPrep

JulianStuart said:


> I wonder when Italian changed from the x to the s.


A long time ago. By the Early Middle Ages according to this articlehttp://www.jstor.org/stable/408975?seq=3 (figure 2, stage 1).



JulianStuart said:


> The meaning of express rapid is a much later evolution from the railway era!


_Express train_, _express car_, _express delivery_, etc. do indeed go back to the railway era (19th century), but this is in fact *earlier* than the use of _espresso_ with reference to coffee, which is not attested in Italian or English until the 20th century.


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## JulianStuart

JuicyJew said:


> The cause of both is ignorance, it's all much the same. And sorry I use an iphone and I'm lazy with my capitalisation haha.



So are you saying that one of the two ways of saying Paris (pariss and paree) is correct and the other is "ignorant"?
And what if people are lazy in pronunciation the way you are in capitalization? One is acceptable and the other is not?
There are a lot of variations of pronunciations in English around the world.


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## JuicyJew

JulianStuart said:


> So are you saying that one of the two ways of saying Paris (pariss and paree) is correct and the other is "ignorant"?
> And what if people are lazy in pronunciation the way you are in capitalization? One is acceptable and the other is not?
> There are a lot of variations of pronunciations in English around the world.



No because Paris is an English word. Like I've already said, there is a difference between having an accent and saying something incorrectly. Obviously once a mistake becomes the norm then what's done is done. But until that happens, a mistake is just that.

I'm 22 years old and if I spelt things here the way I do 80% of the time, I would irritate the crap out of most of you. But my way of spelling is probably close to being more common now than correct English, but you don't see me trying to say that "talkin like this shud bcom correct spellin coz its how ppl normally write now".


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## Copperknickers

JuicyJew said:


> No because Paris is an English word.



It is? I was pretty sure it was a French one, seeing as it is the capital of France, but whatever you say. Espresso is not really an Italian word, it's a word we've borrowed from them, like latte (try ordering one of those in Italy, and your coffee will be rather odd) so we can pronounce it how we want, seeing as there is a lack of universally observed rules about pronunciation in our language.


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## JamesM

However, if we're going to pronounce it "expresso" it makes sense to spell it "expresso" and not "espresso", in my opinion.


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## JulianStuart

Espresso is the Italian word. Looks like expresso is *an* Anglicized _form_  
(There are other countries where expresso is used, but they don't speak English - or, apparently religiously follow the Italian pronunciation either -  but this is an English only forum , as opposed to an Italian forum!)

Heaven knows there are no "universally accepted" rules about the _process _of Anglicization.  Everyone can espress their own opinion on that assertion


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## Phil-Olly

The question of how we pronounce foreign place names is fascinating - and probably a case for a separate thread.  

What interests me is our tendency to apply the rules of English spelling to foreign words, as if the spelling were more significant than the sound.  This is obviously perfectly excusable if you come across an unfamiliar word in writing, and have no idea how it is pronounced locally. But I think we typically hear a foreign word, ask 'how do you spell that?' and then immediately Anglicize the pronunciation, rather than finding an English spelling that would more accurately reflect the local pronunciation.  Why don't we just spell Paris "Paree", for example?


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## JamesM

Agreed. That's pretty much what these threads turn out to be: expressions (or should I say espressions) of opinion. 



			
				JulianStuart said:
			
		

> There are a lot of variations of pronunciations in English around the world.


 
Doubly agree. There are a lot of variations around one English-speaking country.


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## mplsray

jniec said:


> I've been hearing "I'll have an ex-presso" and "ex-specially" (from native speakers)
> 
> I surmise that some people get the  e - s - p  pronunciation confused with e - x - p in the word "express."
> 
> Are these trends, or is it just a unique set of errors?  Is there a speach impediment that would cause this mispronunciation?
> 
> Any thoughts?



I expect that most people who say _expresso_ do so simply because they have heard others use it.

Of nine dictionaries online with have paper versions and which list _expresso_ as a variant of _espresso_, I found only one which identified _expresso_ as an error.

I couldn't point to an example where I have heard _expecially_ used. It sounds like something which _might_ be part of a dialect, but the examples on Google Books don't seem to support this--they seem mostly to be the result of inaccurate transcription via optical character recognition. This is supported by the entries for _especial_ and _especially_ in the Oxford English Dictionary, which show no _exp-_ variants for these words.


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## JuicyJew

Copperknickers said:


> It is? I was pretty sure it was a French one, seeing as it is the capital of France, but whatever you say.



Yes. Just as France is an English word. And Australie is a French word. And Milan is an English word.


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## Einstein

I don't think "expresso" is universal among English speakers or is even becoming so. I think that at least in GB there is not a process of anglicisation and that "expresso" is less common than it used to be. That's why we can discuss its "correctness" because many people recognise it as an Italian word and are happy to know the correct pronunciation/spelling. It's not like "Paris" with the "s" pronounced, which has become the English translation of the French name.


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## JulianStuart

I think the Paris example is anglicization. As you note, expresso is becoming less common but was another example of anglicization. The resurgence in popularity of the drink and interest in its origins made people aware of its Italian form which became preferred.  One would obviously be incorrect to state that expresso is an Italian word.  However, is it an issue of "correctness" in English? Can we always extrapolate to simple numerical values of usage to calculate right vs. wrong?  Who's going to tell the French they use the wrong form because they don't use the Italian form?


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## JamesM

JuicyJew said:


> Yes. Just as France is an English word. And Australie is a French word. And Milan is an English word.



The difference being that both France and Paris are spelled the same way in French and English but pronounced differently, while Australie/Australia and Milan/Milano are actually have different spellings in the two respective languages.


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## JuicyJew

JamesM said:


> The difference being that both France and Paris are spelled the same way in French and English but pronounced differently, while Australie/Australia and Milan/Milano are actually have different spellings in the two respective languages.



Actually the spelling really does not matter. Just because a word happens to be spelt the same in two languages does not mean that it is the same word and bound to one language alone. Do you also reject grand and petite as english words?


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## Cayenarama

JuicyJew said:


> Actually the spelling really does not matter. Just because a word happens to be spelt the same in two languages does not mean that it is the same word and bound to one language alone. Do you also reject grand and petite as english words?



Exactly. Imagine if you applied this to Japanese words 'spelt' using Chinese characters.


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## JuicyJew

Cayenarama said:


> Exactly. Imagine if you applied this to Japanese words 'spelt' using Chinese characters.



Haha you're going to have to make your point a little clearer


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## JamesM

JuicyJew said:


> Actually the spelling really does not matter. Just because a word happens to be spelt the same in two languages does not mean that it is the same word and bound to one language alone. Do you also reject grand and petite as *E*nglish words?



Did I say I rejected anything?    I am only responding to the idea that Paris is an English word.  It is also a French word.  That part appeared to be missing in your original statement.  The examples you provided didn't include a cognate that was spelled the same in both languages, so it was not clear from your previous statements that you were aware of the difference.


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## JuicyJew

JamesM said:


> Did I say I rejected anything?    I am only responding to the idea that Paris is an English word.  It is also a French word.  That part appeared to be missing in your original statement.  The examples you provided didn't include a cognate that was spelled the same in both languages, so it was not clear from your previous statements that you were aware of the difference.



Well obviously Paris is also a French word.

EDIT: And in case you were unaware, the French also spell France as France.


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## JamesM

I _think_ that's what I said, isn't it?



> The difference being that both France and Paris are spelled the same way in French and English but pronounced differently...


 
The odd thing about e*x*presso is that it's pronounced like "express" but with the original spelling.  Paris is following English pronunciation conventions for the letters but "espresso" doesn't.  It's a different beast, in my way of categorizing things.

As for "exspecially", I've heard it from various people, along with "exscape" and "axe" (for "ask").  I don't know that any of them are specific to a region but I've heard several people pronounce them that way over time.


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## Cayenarama

JuicyJew said:


> Haha you're going to have to make your point a little clearer


Ok, it's an obscure example but the words 'yin' and 'yang' would be written using the same characters in Japanese as in Chinese even though the pronunciation might be quite different. Other ideograms that are common to both languages have 'pronunciations' that are completely unrelated.
Ok, thanks for bearing with me. Words slightly closer to home such as 'Koran' have extremely difficult pronunciations for non-Arab speakers (qor'an). But we do our best. 
The spelling of a word and its pronunciation can be quite independent of each other, or at least there's a certain flexibility, especially in English. 
That's always been the strongest argument for maintaining the English spelling. How could you represent all the different accents and regional variants in one phonetic system?


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## timpeac

JuicyJew said:


> No because Paris is an English word. Like I've already said, there is a difference between having an accent and saying something incorrectly. Obviously once a mistake becomes the norm then what's done is done. But until that happens, a mistake is just that.


I think that the comparison with "Paris" here is a misapprehension. When the word "Paris" first came to England it was with Norman pronunciation and the "s" was natively pronounced. There was never a mistake - the French in France changed, and the French in England was more conservative - much like "gotten" that the English would have used a few centuries ago survives as standard in America and has become "got" in England.

It seems to me (and I don't put it any stronger as that, as it is easy to make misapprehensions about apparent etymology of words as the above shows) that that saying "expresso" for "espresso" is a mistake, but in a way a "learned" mistake. As others have mentioned "espresso" comes from Latin "expressus" and the "exp" remains as such in English borrowings from Latin, and so it's not a ridiculous mistake.

In other words, I would put saying "expresso" for "espresso" in the middle of a continuum from pronouncing "Paris" with an "s" (no mistake at all) to saying "Bolognese" as "Bologneiz" (a complete mistake (don't get me wrong, though - I would never consider saying anything other than "Bologneiz" myself in English or I'd sound completely pretentious)).


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## ocanada3933

jniec said:


> OK, one of the people I know who says eX-specially is from Iowa.  Could this be a mid-west (America) thing?



I've heard it and I grew up in Columbus, Ohio.  Maybe it is a Midwestern thing but I've only ever heard it from blacks. (Pardon me, but this is no place for political correctness, it's just where I've heard it.) Similarly, I've think we'd all agree that "aks" is chiefly "ebonics" or "African American Vernacular English."

Secondly, it's easy to see why people say it:  There are very few words in English that begin with 'esp-'.  However, quite a number start with 'exp-'.


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## JuicyJew

ocanada3933 said:


> ...Similarly, I've think we'd all agree that "aks" is chiefly "ebonics" or "African American Vernacular English."



I just have to say this really isn't true. It's heard often all over the world, more particularly in less educated people though. And it's a southern american thing. That is where ebonics is derived from after all.


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## ocanada3933

JuicyJew said:


> I just have to say this really isn't true. It's heard often all over the world, more particularly in less educated people though. And it's a southern american thing. That is where ebonics is derived from after all.



Like I stated, it's just where I've chiefly heard it. It's not that it "really isn't true." I just don't come into contact with uneducated folks from the South all too often.


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## mplsray

It should, perhaps, be mentioned that _aks_ for _ask_ is a survivor from older forms. Old English _áscian_ came by metathesis to have a variant form, _ácsian_. The following is from the etymology for "ask, _v._" in the Oxford English Dictionary: 



> _Acsian, axian_, survived in _ax_, down to nearly 1600 the regular literary form, and still used everywhere in midl. and southern dialects, though supplanted in standard English by _ask_, originally the northern form.



That's northern, midland, and southern dialects in England, of course.


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## JuicyJew

But I doubt that people who say aks do it for any reason to do with etymology. Today it is spelt and pronounced ask, so aks is just the result of a mild tongue twister. 

It's probably a good thing they don't use "crisps" for "chips" in america, I'd hate to see southerners struggle with that one. I know I can't pronounce it properly! Haha


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## Glasguensis

JuicyJew said:


> It's probably a good thing they don't use "crisps" for "chips" in america, I'd hate to see southerners struggle with that one. I know I can't pronounce it properly! Haha


 
Perhaps that's *why* you don't use it! 

I might have missed this somewhere but I don't think anyone has mentioned that "expresso" is the French word for "espresso". If espresso was introduced to the English-speaking world via France, it would obviously have brought its French name with it, and not its original Italian name. Direct contact with the Italian original coming later would explain the current confusion and differences.

In Scotland I say and write "espresso", incidentally.


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## timpeac

That's a very good point Glasguensis. I suppose the question would still remain as to why the French Frenchified the word and whether this is an "error" or not but that's for another forum. It's certainly a plausible explanation why we might end up with expresso in English though.


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## CapnPrep

Glasguensis said:


> I might have missed this somewhere but I don't think anyone has mentioned that "expresso" is the French word for "espresso". If espresso was introduced to the English-speaking world via France, it would obviously have brought its French name with it, and not its original Italian name.


The earlier French word for espresso was _express_ (1950), a form which was clearly influenced by English, and only later _expresso_ (1968). The OED cites an example of the form _expresso_ in English from 1955.


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## mplsray

JuicyJew said:


> But I doubt that people who say aks do it for any reason to do with etymology. Today it is spelt and pronounced ask, so aks is just the result of a mild tongue twister.
> 
> It's probably a good thing they don't use "crisps" for "chips" in america, I'd hate to see southerners struggle with that one. I know I can't pronounce it properly! Haha



The problem with denying that the pronunciation has do with the history of the word is that it occurs in some dialects much more often than in others. The following is from a Web page quoting _Understanding English Language Variation in US Schools_ (2011) by A.H. Charity Hudley and C. Mallinson:



> While the pronunciation of _ask_ as _axe_ is considered to be a nonstandardized pronunciation today, it is nevertheless very common. Many African Americans pronounce _ask_ as _axe_, as do many speakers in the South, in Appalachia, in other pockets of the United States, in the Caribbean, and in parts of the United Kingdom. Part of the reason that this pronunciation is almost instantly noticed when it is used by African Americans is because it has come to be viewed as a stereotyped feature of African American English. (p. 80)



If it were simply a matter of a mistake being made anew, we would expect it to occur in all varieties of English at the same frequency.

That Web page goes into the matter further.


Addition: The Web page has a link to the article "ax - ask" in The Mavens' Word of the Day, from which I quote the following:



> /aks/ is still found frequently in the South, and is a characteristic of some speech communities as far North as New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Illinois and Iowa.


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## xjm

I think there are actually two different things going on here.  *Expresso* is, if I recall correctly, some commercial or trademarked term for an instant coffee that was supposed to be as good as café-style *espresso*.  The two have been blended in synecdoche.  (Personally, it drives me nuts, because I am a coffee snob; older family members with more plebian coffee habits have often been subjected to me snapping, "ESSSpresso, ESSSSpresso!")

The more general... can we call it an intrusive x? is a common feature in AAVE and "blue-collar" dialects.  I've heard "exspecially" and "exscape" from people in my home community, both black and white, although more often from children or people with less formal education.


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## Nenio

Glasguensis said:


> I might have missed this somewhere but I don't think anyone has mentioned that "expresso" is the French word for "espresso". If espresso was introduced to the English-speaking world via France, it would obviously have brought its French name with it, and not its original Italian name. Direct contact with the Italian original coming later would explain the current confusion and differences.



Incidentally, the word "espresso" may be a lot harder for French people to pronounce than "expresso". Sometimes I say "espresso" when I go back to France and people look at me funny. Some have even asked if I had a speech impairment!

It's true that they are sometimes called "express" in French (even nowadays) - perhaps because they are served in small cups (quicker to drink) and only take seconds to make (as opposed to filter coffee, which is what people drink in their homes). This last point, I think, may be valid in the States and the UK too.


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## JuicyJew

mplsray said:


> If it were simply a matter of a mistake being made anew, we would expect it to occur in all varieties of English at the same frequency.



No I disagree. And you have misunderstood if you think I don't believe the use of aks has anything to do with region/upbringing. The opposite actually, my only point on that matter was that it was far more widespread than certain african american demographics, as your sources also say. 

I see no reason to think that all tongue-twister traits should equally disperse themselves amongst all people. Obviously, certain accents are more prone to certain pronounciations. But this crops up in many places anyhow. 

My point was only that just because people have been flipping back and forth over these words hundreds of years ago, doesn't mean that it is the cause (let alone validation) of people who say aks in the present. Children say aks because they hear it said and/or they  struggle to pronounce ask. It's not that complicated. They don't know anything about the etymology.


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## JulianStuart

Glasguensis said:


> I might have missed this somewhere but I don't think anyone has mentioned that "expresso" is the French word for "espresso". If espresso was introduced to the English-speaking world via France, it would obviously have brought its French name with it, and not its original Italian name. Direct contact with the Italian original coming later would explain the current confusion and differences..


I mentioned it quietly in #46 because this is  labeled an "English only" forum.  It is quite possible that the early use in Britain in the 50s and 60s came from the "French scene" rather than the Italian "scene" and popularized the  x version.


JuicyJew said:


> It's not that complicated. They don't know anything about the etymology.


But etymology is the study of how words change over time and as they move from one language to another - the users don't think to themselves "What would etymology do?" they do what comes naturally.

I think I'll go out on a limb here and suggest that the folks who tolerate the x version of expresso are old enough to have lived through the earlier era when it was more common (or perhaps they have French connections) while those who absolutely can't tolerate it are "elitist newbies who feel that their precious drink must be named in its native language" - how dare anyone anglicize it?  

I personally don't care whether it is spelled (spelt anyone?) with an x or an s and don't consider either of them to be "incorrect"!  No doubt, today the s version is more common but that doesn't make the x version _suddenly_ "wrong" whether in Anglophone countries let alone Francophone ones.


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## timpeac

In my esperience the espresso form is more common in writing - I'd espect to see it on a menu - but the expresso pronunciation is more common. But I don't say that scientifically, just based in what I think I hear and see round where I live.


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## JuicyJew

JulianStuart said:


> But etymology is the study of how words change over time and as they move from one language to another - the users don't think to themselves "What would etymology do?" they do what comes naturally.



That's what I was saying. I've known plenty of people to say aks, and they all know it's wrong, and they just have difficulty saying it. None of them say "oh well it used to be spelt and pronounced like this!".

And as far as all these (to me) elusive people who say expresso go, I imagine it's much the same. What percentage of them have ever seen "expresso" written or know of it's previous use? Not many is my guess. And better still what would be interesting to know is how many, if any, coffee shops in the anglophone world use "expresso"? If anything should indicate what is "correct", it should be that.


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## xjm

Actually, "expresso" is well-attested in written form.  (Just give it a google.)

Interesting example I found googling:
*The Expresso Shoppe, Your Internet Source for All Things Espresso*

So, clearly, there are some who distinguish the two words--it's not just a matter of mistaken pronunciation.

Also, while not authoritative, urban dictionary is entertaining on the subject, and illustrates the stigma associated with this form of the word:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=expresso

Edit:  There is also apparently a model of van called "Expresso":
http://www.intellichoice.com/1-12-1...ager-expresso-4dr-extended-passenger-van.html


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## JuicyJew

xjm said:


> Actually, "expresso" is well-attested in written form.  (Just give it a google.)
> 
> Interesting example I found googling:
> *The Expresso Shoppe, Your Internet Source for All Things Espresso*
> 
> So, clearly, there are some who distinguish the two words--it's not just a matter of mistaken pronunciation.
> 
> Also, while not authoritative, urban dictionary is entertaining on the subject, and illustrates the stigma associated with this form of the word:
> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=expresso
> 
> Edit:  There is also apparently a model of van called "Expresso":
> http://www.intellichoice.com/1-12-1...ager-expresso-4dr-extended-passenger-van.html



But see this is my point, this Expresso shop sells ESPRESSO, not EXPRESSO.


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## xjm

JuicyJew said:


> But see this is my point, this Expresso shop sells ESPRESSO, not EXPRESSO.



Precisely.


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## JuicyJew

xjm said:


> Precisely.



I'm kinda confused now, but ok


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## MiguelNYC

I've never heard "expresso" before.  That is interesting, but sounds odd to me.  Hmm.


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## JulianStuart

JuicyJew said:


> And better still what would be interesting to know is how many, if any, coffee shops in the anglophone world use "expresso"? If anything should indicate what is "correct", it should be that.


That would only define which of the two variants is more common, not (whether there will be any consensus on) whether it is "correct" or not.  

There will be ~300 million people in a country where spelled is spelled _spelled_ and a smaller number of perhaps 50 million in one and 20 million in another where spelled is spelled _spelt_ is considered totally acceptable.  However, in the big country, spelt would be called wrong by many , by sheer force of unfamiliarity but the whole other group says it's right. 

I simply don't understand why one of the forms of the coffee word has to be declared wrong, that's my point.  I've stipulated (there, I used it in a sentence outside of a courtroom!) that the x version is less common and is not the word used in Italy. However, it is simply a documented variant within English.


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## timpeac

I agree with Julian - and I would go further. I can only talk for my region of English, but I'm sure that _saying _expresso is much more common than saying espresso.

We're all language lovers and take interest in the etymology of words and their associations - that's why we're on this site. The vast majority of people don't, and say what they hear around them. Even then, I think that lots of educated people _where I live_ would go into a coffee shop and ask for an expresso - and unless they are interested in the history of language probably not think there is a thing wrong with it. It's a normal usage as far as I'm concerned.

I'd still be wary of considering it a mistake, as well. This presumes that people are trying to say "espresso" and failing. I think that many people mean to say "expresso" and succeed in doing so.


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## JuicyJew

timpeac said:


> I'd still be wary of considering it a mistake, as well. This presumes that people are trying to say "espresso" and failing. I think that many people mean to say "expresso" and succeed in doing so.



That's really interesting. And not to stalk you, but where do you live?? And what interests me more is do your coffee houses spell it as expresso too? 

It's one thing for a region to end up using an unconventional word, but it would be something else if they are writing espresso and pronouncing it expresso. Bizarre really.


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## timpeac

JuicyJew said:


> That's really interesting. And not to stalk you, but where do you live?? And what interests me more is do your coffee houses spell it as expresso too?
> 
> It's one thing for a region to end up using an unconventional word, but it would be something else if they are writing espresso and pronouncing it expresso. Bizarre really.


Southern England. I'll make a concerted effort over the next few days to see what's written on boards, and also try to surreptitiously get people to say the word and see how they actually say it and report back.


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## JulianStuart

JuicyJew said:


> It's one thing for a region to end up using an unconventional word, but it would be something else if they are writing X and pronouncing it Y. Bizarre really.


The unfamiliar usually sounds bizarre - or looks bizarre when seen written. But then this is English and our fellow forum member ghotioutofh20 attests to how bizarre things can get 

To purloin a worn out cliche (is that an unnecessary redundancy) "Any sufficiently advanced technology unfamiliar English irregularity is indistinguishable from magic incorrectness."


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## JuicyJew

JulianStuart said:


> That would only define which of the two variants is more common, not (whether there will be any consensus on) whether it is "correct" or not.



That's one way of putting it. But it doesn't just define which one is more common, everyone already knows that. What it would define is whether there is a consensus in the industry. And of the options at our disposal, I'd say that's a good indicator of correctness. Let's not delude ourselves that these things are ever resolved by global consensus anyway. 

Since you brought it up, I'd say it's pretty different to "spelt", or any other spelling variation I can think of. Because "industry experts" if you can call teachers and such that, actually use the term. 

Now if there really is a number of people in the espresso industry who call it expresso, I'm happy to let that be that. It's just that I would be very surprised. But hey, we learn new things everyday.


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## JulianStuart

If you were to use the word spelt in the US, you would indeed be regarded as bizarre - or be considered knowledgeable about ancient wheat hybrids!

There are enough instances of the word expresso (spoken or written) in the present or recent past, and in dictionaries of repute, that there is no way I will accept anyone saying it is _incorrect_. One is simply more common than the other. Period. Full stop. Dot.  I have no problem at all with people saying the s version is preferred - as you and possibly "industry" folks might.

And why would the coffee industry be one we might look to for being an authority on spelling "correctness"?


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## JuicyJew

JulianStuart said:


> And why would the coffee industry be one we might look to for being an authority on spelling "correctness"?



It makes sense when you think about it in this instance. If it really were a valid option, wouldn't some people who are the authority on ESPRESSO use it? I can't think of any accepted spelling variation where those most involved or knowledgeable in the area all shun one. 

And I can't think of any acceptable spelling variation where those who use one are so utterly hard to locate. 

I did do a little google and I could find nothing but spelling redirections, let alone somewhere that actually sells "expresso".


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## JulianStuart

Well, the customers probably outnumber those "in the industry" and they probably have something to say on it - oh, wait, several folks have said they hear (and even say themselves) the word expresso even though they may see it written as espresso.  The Chair-human of the Global* Espresso Manufacturers' Association might tomorrow declare "expresso" to be wrong.  Wouldn't change my views 

*Well that would not include a variety of countries where they use expresso, so make that partly Global association


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## Montesacro

ag228 said:


> Espresso means 'Pressed out' in italian. There is nothing express about it... You have to grind beans and put them through a machine that puts serious pressure to boiling water that comes through the beans.



In Italian _espresso_ is the past participle of _esprimere_, that means "to express". _Esprimere_ is very rarely used to mean "press out/squeeze out": it is much more common to use the verb _spremere_ (past participle _spremuto_). The two verbs, by the way, share the same etymology (from Latin _exprimere_). 

_Espresso_ can also be used as a noun (or adjective), whose meaning is "fast", "rapid". This usage comes from French and was originally applied exclusively to trains:
_un treno espresso, l'espresso_, from French "train express".

Later the noun/adjective _espresso_ began to be used widely in different contexts:
_un piatto espresso_: a dish prepared instantly, eaten in a "trattoria"
_un caffè espresso_ (or, simply, _un espresso_) : coffee served in a bar, made right after the customer asks for it.
Such usage most probably comes from the English adjective "express" (operating at high speed), which in turn comes from French "exprès".

So, to summarise:
- a _caffè_ is called "espresso" because it is prepared quickly, right after a customer's order; the  water being pressed out through the ground beans has got nothing to do with it.

- _espresso_ (in this sense) is a calque from an English word.


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## JuicyJew

So according to your logic, do you also think "aks" or "axe" should be correct english? Since etymologically, it's been used in writing and pronounciation in the past, and still is today, in many demographics. The number of people who use "aks" certainly far outweigh some tiny minority who use expresso.


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## JulianStuart

Montesacro said:


> So, to summarise:
> - a _caffè_ is called "espresso" because it is prepared quickly, right after a customer's order; the  water being pressed out through the ground beans has got nothing to do with it.
> .



So, if this is indeed true and we have *express* trains in the English speaking world, then we should have *expresso *drinks?


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## CapnPrep

Montesacro said:


> - a _caffè_ is called "espresso" because it is prepared quickly, right after a customer's order; the  water being pressed out through the ground beans has got nothing to do with it.


Words do not always have one, single origin. People could very well have started using _espresso _for coffee because both meanings were appropriate, and it is very difficult to prove that one of them "has got nothing to do with it" (and irresponsible to simply declare this without offering any sources).

For example, this French dictionary mentions both possibilities (my translation and emphasis):


> Borrowed from It._ espresso_ (same meaning, 20th cent. according to the _DEI_), *of uncertain origin*, either by nominalization of the participle of _esprimere_ "to extract by pressing", or — *less likely* — by adoption of the word _espresso_ "express train".





JulianStuart said:


> So, if this is indeed true and we have *express* trains in the English speaking world, then we should have *expresso *drinks?


Well, no, we should have "express coffee drinks".


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## mplsray

JuicyJew said:


> So according to your logic, do you also think "aks" or "axe" should be correct english? Since etymologically, it's been used in writing and pronounciation in the past, and still is today, in many demographics. The number of people who use "aks" certainly far outweigh some tiny minority who use expresso.



It's not etymology that makes a usage standard, but whether it is used by educated speakers. Once a usage is standard, however, it tends to stay standard, and this is true even when it reaches the point where it is used by only a tiny minority of educated speakers. It may well be that only a tiny minority use _expresso_, but there has not yet been sufficient change for most dictionaries to consider reclassifying it.

In fact, dictionaries aid in keeping standard but minority usages standard. If a person is challenged about a particular usage, and that usage is recognized by dictionaries as standard, he can always point to those dictionaries as evidence that his usage is a correct one. I'm sure this sort of thing occurred during the transition from the standard spelling _to-day_ to the standard spelling _today_, to give just one example.

My own take on _expresso_ does not involve the etymology. Once a word enters our language, it's _our_ word, and we have every right to change it however we wish.


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## xjm

JulianStuart said:


> To purloin a worn out cliche (is that an unnecessary redundancy) "Any sufficiently advanced technology unfamiliar English irregularity is indistinguishable from magic incorrectness."







JuicyJew said:


> So according to your logic, do you also think "aks" or "axe" should be correct english? Since etymologically, it's been used in writing and pronounciation in the past, and still is today, in many demographics. The number of people who use "aks" certainly far outweigh some tiny minority who use expresso.



There's a key difference here: _No one thinks the word *ask* is spelled *aks*._  Pronouncing *ask* as "aks" is a potayto/potahto thing; just a matter of dialect.

However, there are plenty of people who actually think the word for this most wonderful preparation of coffee is *expresso*, and there are other people who distinguish the two and/or use *expresso* as a pun on *espresso*.


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## Montesacro

CapnPrep said:


> Montesacro said:
> 
> 
> 
> - a _caffè_ is called "espresso" because it is prepared quickly, right after a customer's order; the  water being pressed out through the ground beans has got nothing to do with it.
> 
> 
> 
> Words do not always have one, single origin. People could very well have started using _espresso _for coffee because both meanings were appropriate, and it is very difficult to prove that one of them "has got nothing to do with it" (and irresponsible to simply declare this without offering any sources).
Click to expand...


Irresponsible? Calm down, my friend, there's no need to use such words.
As I've already written in my previous post, the verb _esprimere_ (whose past participle is _espresso_) *very rarely means "to press out"*. 
It is indeed a meaning which is labelled as *"antico" (archaic)* in the Treccani dictionary.
Nowadays everybody would use the past participle "spremuto" (from _spremere_), and I'm sure the same was true in the nineteenth century (and even earlier).
But to my knowledge there's no such thing as a *"caffè spremuto"*...

By the way it seems that the first espresso machine was shown during the 1855 Universal Exhibition in Paris.



CapnPrep said:


> For example, this French dictionary mentions both possibilities (my translation and emphasis):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Borrowed from It. espresso (same meaning, 20th cent. according to the DEI), *of uncertain origin*, either by nominalization of the participle of esprimere "to extract by pressing", or — *less likely* — by adoption of the word espresso "express train".
Click to expand...


Allow me to quote an Italian dictionary, whose reliability about the etymology of Italian words is arguably far greater than that of a French dictionary:



> *esprèsso* adjective and noun [past participle of esprimere; meaning 4 from French  (train) express, English express; meaning 5 from English express, which in turn comes from French exprès].
> (...)
> 5. Caffè espresso, coffee "ristretto" prepared on purpose for the customer who ordered it, with special machines.. ;


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## JulianStuart

mplsray said:


> It's not etymology that makes a usage standard, but whether it is used by educated speakers. Once a usage is standard, however, it tends to stay standard, and this is true even when it reaches the point where it is used by only a tiny minority of educated speakers. It may well be that only a tiny minority use _expresso_, but there has not yet been sufficient change for most dictionaries to consider reclassifying it.
> 
> In fact, dictionaries aid in keeping standard but minority usages standard. If a person is challenged about a particular usage, and that usage is recognized by dictionaries as standard, he can always point to those dictionaries as evidence that his usage is a correct one. I'm sure this sort of thing occurred during the transition from the standard spelling _to-day_ to the standard spelling _today_, to give just one example.


Thank you Ray
So we are back to dictionaries being the custodians of usage information  and "standardness" and not industry groups?  Sanity returns 
I am now calm.  Expresso is not incorrect (yet!)


mplsray said:


> My own take on _expresso_ does not involve the etymology. Once a word enters our language, it's _our_ word, and we have every right to change it however we wish.


My take is that it originally came into English as expresso, for whatever reason, in the 50s and 60s but it was but a passing fad.  Then came the growth of the low-fat half soy grande latte (or whatever the variants are) and coffee was cool again and saying/spelling espresso was in and cool.  So yes, we seem to have been messing with it, at our collective whim


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## CapnPrep

Montesacro said:


> By the way it seems that the first espresso machine was shown during the 1855 Universal Exhibition in Paris.


But it wasn't called an "espresso machine", and the coffee was not called "espresso/express/expresso". The dictionaries say that this term was not introduced until the 20th century, but it must have been at the very beginning of the century, because in this photo from 1906 we can see the words "caffè espresso" and the first machine (Bezzera's Tipo Gigante) for making individual cups of coffee to order.

I would agree that in this context, the "express" speed of the preparation was the big selling point.


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## JuicyJew

I actually think "espresso" refers more to it being "expressly" made - specially and carefully for an individual. It may be "pressed out" from the machine, but it's hardly a speedy process. 

Also after all this talk, I decided to actually look in the dictionary, and what do you know, Oxford redirects "expresso" and says it is "strictly incorrect".


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