# Latin words in the Koran



## Magmod

What words were taken from Latin by Arabic in the Koran?


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## rayloom

You have:

دينار dīnār from Latin denarius
الروم al-rūm "the Romans", used to refer to the Byzantines!
قصر qaṣr from Latin castrum
صراط sirāt from Latin strāta
بلد balad from Latin palatium
قنطار qinṭār from Latin centenarium
قميص qamīṣ from Latin camisia
سجل sijill from Latin sigillum


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## Magmod

Many thanks for your reply Rayloom.
Do you think the following words also taken from Latin:
بق Bug
Carob خروب
coffinكفن 
cutقطع 
nobleنبيل
tallطويل
furفراء
caveكهف
catقط
nutنوة
أرضEarth


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## rayloom

You're welcome 

Only 3 words in your list occur in the Quran:
كهف kahf "cave" is from PS kahp-, of Proto-Afro-Asiatic origin. See here (not gonna go through the Borean etymology). The word is also attested in Ancient North Arabian with the meanings "cave" & "tomb".
قطع qaṭa3a is also a common Semitic root, probably stemming from an older bilateral qṭ root, which also forms many triliteral roots with the meaning "to cut".
أرض earth. Only a coincidental similarity. there's a thread already in the EHL forum Etymology: Earth

The rest of the words aren't in the Quran.

But to give you a general idea, there are many coincidental similarities between different languages, if you search the EHL forum for "earth" in Arabic, you'd find it a good example. The root of the Arabic word is Proto-Semitic, and present in nearly all Semitic languages, as for the IE earth and its cognates, they stem from a PIE root as well. So it's only a similarity.
This applies to: tall, noble, fur, cat, nut, earth.

خروب carob was borrowed into European languages from Arabic, it's ultimately Assyrian. See here.
كفن has a different meaning than coffin.
English Bug isn't from Latin, and the similarity between Arabic بق (attested early in Arabic) and English bug is coincidental I think.
English Fur isn't from Latin, and its origin from PGmc fodram doesn't suggest a loan when it comes to فراء  which is also attested early in Arabic.
Cat, according to etymonline might have come originally from AfroAsiatic. See here.

P.S. I think this thread is better suited in the EHL forum. Maybe a moderator can move it there.

Edit: طويل occurs in the Quran also, but it's from a common Semitic root ṭwl (see here). English Tall by the way isn't from Latin.


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## WadiH

> قصر qaṣr from Latin castrum



How sure are we that this is a loan from Latin?  Its meaning fits the Arabic root q-s-r quite well and it's hard to believe the Arabs would have no word for a large house or mansion.



> بلد balad from Latin palatium



I'm surprised by this one as well.  Does this root not exist in other Semitic tongues?


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## Magmod

I'm surprised as well. But the Romans were the super power, may be  for 8 centuries, if one adds the Greeks civilization. The Arab tribes were mercenaries.
The Arabs were nomads and they don't need a word for قصر qaṣr.
In one forum someone said that Arabs were using Aramaic scripts to write the spoken Arabic. Hence the influence.أرض earth could fall in this category.
I'm certain the old Egyptian language hieroglyphic  had a great influence, since it was the dominant language for at least 6 centuries.
Just an opinion.


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## WadiH

This is a misconception that even many Arabs find hard to shake off.  Arabia has always been a mix of nomads and settled populations.  In fact, there is reason to believe that the nomads were always in the minority (and in certain regions, it was certainly the case).  Nomadism in Arabia was an adaptation that developed later than settled life.  The nomadic and settled populations were in symbiosis, but whereas the settled peoples could typically survive without the nomads, the nomads' existence depended on the settled hinterland.  A good discussion of this topic can be found in the first chapter of Donner's _Islamic Conquests _and in the article "Badw" in the Encyclopedia of Islam.

Arabia has always been dotted with hundreds if not thousands of towns and villages. So, there was certainly always a need for "qasrs."  When you drive west outside of Riyadh, the first town you meet is called "Gsoor Aal Migbil" ("The Gsoor of the Migbil clan", Gsoor being the plural of gasr = qasr).  The region west of Riyadh was always famous in past centuries for its many qasrs, often isolated in the desert or on the outskirts of town.  A qasr in local parlance was simply a large mansion of mud brick, surrounded by a date grove and enclosed by a wall.  More generally, any walled complex (including the governor's residence and military forts) can be called a "qasr" in the local dialect (but not in Classical Arabic).  Today, "qasr" means palace in the local dialect (same as in Classical Arabic).  By contrast, a castrum (as I understand it) is a specifically military term meaning fort or army camp. Since many different types of buildings (mansions, country estates, palaces, military forts, etc.) can be called qasr and the only common element between them is that they are walled compounds, it is more likely that qasr takes its name from the wall that marks its boundaries rather than any Roman influence.


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## Magmod

Many thanks for your reply. You have put right many misconceptions.

As you can see from below, Rayloom is right about قصر qaṣr.
This is one reason why I'm interested in the origin of words, especially with words like صراط sirāt

If you put the *origin of Luxor* in Google, you'll find confirmation of the origin of قصر qaṣr.

Luxor - Wikipedia


Luxor Word Origin & History
Definition of luxor | Dictionary.com
place in Egypt, from Arabic al-Kusur, lit. "the palaces," from pl. of kasr, which is from L. castrum "fortified camp" (see castle). There are remains of Roman camps nearby.


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## WadiH

Magmod said:


> Luxor Word Origin & History
> http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/luxor
> place in Egypt, from Arabic al-Kusur, lit. "the palaces," from pl. of kasr, which is from L. castrum "fortified camp" (see castle). There are remains of Roman camps nearby.



This entire entry is based on a typographical error!  Luxor in Arabic is "Al-Uqsur" (which does not match any pattern that can be derived from "qasr"), not "Al-Qusuur".

EDIT: It turns out it may have been originally "Al-Aqsur", which would be a valid plural of "qasr," but I don't see that as adding much to the evidence that "qasr" is a loanword.  Again, it seems more likely to mean "enclosed area," compare to مقصورة maqSuurah, which derives from the same root.


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## Abu Rashid

rayloom said:


> سجل sijill from Latin sigillum



There is a Semitic root s-g-l meaning property, possession, treasure. So possibly that which is kept, preserved is recorded, registered.

Doesn't that Latin word mean seal? Hardly seems to be the same as the Arabic word.

This word seems quite Arabic to me.


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## Abu Rashid

Wadi Hanifa said:


> I'm surprised by this one as well.  Does this root not exist in other Semitic tongues?



It exists in Sabaic, meaning settlement or colony. But most Semitic languages use another root for land/country.

In the south Semitic languages you have ه-ج-ر and in the north Semitic languages they mostly use the root أ-ر-ض for this meaning.


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## Abu Rashid

Magmod said:


> As you can see from below, Rayloom is right about قصر qaṣr.
> 
> ...
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxor



Even from the meaning of this root it appears to be the complete opposite of what a castle is. In the Semitic languages q-ṣ-r means small, tiny, short. So it seems illogical from this meaning that it would be used to refer to a large, giant building.

But Wadi Hanifa is right about the misconception that Arabia has always been inhabited just by nomads. Southern Arabia was home to some decent size civilisations, which had pretty impressive architectural structures. There's also the city of Ubar, which supposed to have been a fairly central trade hub in ancient times.


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## Magmod

Abu Rashid said:


> Even from the meaning of this root it appears to be the complete opposite of what a castle is. In the Semitic languages q-ṣ-r means small, tiny, short. So it seems illogical from this meaning that it would be used to refer to a large, giant building.


Qsr also means *short i*n Arabic. 
But this has nothing to do with large house etc. just another meaning of the word.
Most words in  Arabic have several meanings.

قصر Please put   قصرi  n an Arabic dictionary


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## WadiH

Magmod said:


> Qsr also means *short i*n Arabic.
> But this has nothing to do with large house etc. just another meaning of the word.
> Most words in  Arabic have several meanings.
> 
> قصر Please put   قصرi  n an Arabic dictionary



"Short" is not another meaning here.  On the contrary, the sense of "short" and the sense of "enclosed property" are derived from the same meaning.  Think of it this way: in English, when I want to put a limit on something, I "cut it short."  It's the same in Arabic.  The owner of the qasr has demarcated a piece of property and not allowed anyone to come onto it.  Look also at the word "maqSuurah", which I mentioned above.  It means a chamber where people are not allowed in, like a royal chamber. Or think of the Quranic description "maqSuuratun fil khiyaam" (houri women in heaven that are ensconced in tents, i.e. others are forbidden from access to them). I take it you don't read Arabic, but the entry for "q-s-r" in the Classical lexicon _Lisaan ul-'Arab_ makes it very clear that "q-s-r"=palace is derived from the same "q-s-r" meaning short (Abu Rashid: I would encourage you to take a look).  You need more evidence to argue against this than a superficial similarity with "castrum."


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## origumi

qsr = _short_ cannot be borrowed from Roman. It exists in Biblical & Modern Hebrew for _short_, _harvest_ of corn (cereal). Apparently a native Semitic word.


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## Magmod

Wadi Hanifa said:


> You need more evidence to argue against this than a superficial similarity with "castrum."


The evidence been given to you above. 
If you put قصر  in this dictionary

www.almaany.com 
You will get 25 different meanings of قصر . One of them is short.

This is why I started this thread so that one doesn't follow blindly _Lisaan ul-'Arab and other biased dictionaries._


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## Abu Rashid

Magmod said:


> Qsr also means *short i*n Arabic.



Yes, that's what I just said. ie. Arabic is a Semitic language, and in Arabic and most other Semitic languages, it means short.



Magmod said:


> But this has nothing to do with large house etc. just another meaning of the word.
> Most words in  Arabic have several meanings.
> 
> قصر Please put   قصرi  n an Arabic dictionary



Not sure why you put that cross symbol. I don't think you understood what I said. I agreed with you, by stating it seems illogical that the word for short would refer to a large building, therefore qasr is probably not originally Arabic.

Try reading things a little more carefully.


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## Abu Rashid

origumi said:


> qsr = _short_ cannot be borrowed from Roman. It exists in Biblical & Modern Hebrew for _short_, _harvest_ of corn (cereal). Apparently a native Semitic word.



I don't think anyone's disputing that. The point is, why would the root for short be used for a gigantic dwelling?


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## rayloom

Magmod said:


> I'm surprised as well. But the Romans were the super power, may be  for 8 centuries, if one adds the Greeks civilization. The Arab tribes were mercenaries.



The Pre-Islamic Arabs in the Levant and Mesopotamia which you're probably referring to were vassals of the Byzantine and Sassanid empires respectively, not mercenaries.



> The Arabs were nomads and they don't need a word for قصر qaṣr.



Borrowing words from another language isn't done on a need basis. Same thing can be said about most English borrowings. 
To add to what Wadi Hanifa said, Ancient Arabs also built castles, you have for example Qasr Marid, which still stands (albeit in ruins) to this day.



> In one forum someone said that Arabs were using Aramaic scripts to write the spoken Arabic. Hence the influence.أرض earth could fall in this category.



Arabic script developed from Aramaic script, similarly to how most modern European scripts developed from Latin script. And I don't see how أرض earth could fall in this category!




> I'm certain the old Egyptian language hieroglyphic  had a great  influence, since it was the dominant language for at least 6 centuries.
> Just an opinion.



Hieroglyphic is the name of the writing system used by the Ancient Egyptians, not the name of the Ancient Egyptian language!



> This is why I started this thread so that one doesn't follow blindly _Lisaan ul-'Arab and other biased dictionaries._


Arabic classic dictionaries (including Lisan Al-Arab) weren't biased, they weren't etymological dictionaries. The study of etymology wasn't as well advanced as it is now, they dealt with many words of which they didn't know an origin. But if a word's origin was known (or even sometimes speculated because of its form), you would find it mentioned.


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## Abu Rashid

Wadi Hanifa said:


> but the entry for "q-s-r" in the Classical lexicon _Lisaan ul-'Arab_ makes it very clear that "q-s-r"=palace is derived from the same "q-s-r" meaning short (Abu Rashid: I would encourage you to take a look).



I'm not saying it isn't Arabic, it just seems illogical to me for it to be derived from the root primarily meaning short. Language isn't always logical though.



Magmod said:


> You need more evidence to argue against this than a superficial similarity with "castrum."



Couldn't agree more here. Some people need a mountain of evidence just to accept an Arabic word is actually Arabic, yet any remotely sounding European word they instantly latch onto as being the ultimate source of everything. Linguistics is not the only field though where Euro-centrism blinds people from thinking rationally, personally I think it's fairly rife throughout many fields of science, especially social sciences.


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## Abu Rashid

rayloom said:


> To add to what Wadi Hanifa said, Ancient Arabs also built castles, you have for example Qasr Marid, which still stands (albeit in ruins) to this day.



That castle is from precisely the time when the Romans had a lot of influence over the Arabs, and indeed your link mentions Roman-Nabataean pottery being found there.


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## rayloom

Wadi Hanifa said:


> How sure are we that this is a loan from Latin?  Its meaning fits the Arabic root q-s-r quite well and it's hard to believe the Arabs would have no word for a large house or mansion.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm surprised by this one as well.  Does this root not exist in other Semitic tongues?




Yes I guess the main issue was the lack of cognates in other Semitic languages, and the presence of what appears to be the origin of these words in Latin (in this case).
Andras Rajki's Arabic Etymological Dictionary doesn't list though that balad is from Latin palatium. But as Abu Rahid mentioned, the only cognate that exists is in Sabaic.
By the way, the same questions can be raised about qamīṣ, since the root exists in Arabic (and several Semitic languages with a similar meaning), it has been even suggested that Latin borrowed it from Greek which in turn borrowed the word from a Semitic language. See the following etymology attributed to the American Heritage Dictionary:
(taken from Wikipedia):-that Mediaeval Latin _camisia_ is a borrowing through Hellenistic Greek _kamision_ from the Central Semitic root “qmṣ”, represented by Ugaritic _qmṣ_ (‘garment’) and Arabic _qamīṣ_ (‘shirt’). Both of these are related to the Hebrew verb קמץ _qmṣ_ (‘grip’, ‘enclose with one’s hand’).



Abu Rashid said:


> There is a Semitic root s-g-l meaning property, possession, treasure. So possibly that which is kept, preserved is recorded, registered.
> 
> Doesn't that Latin word mean seal? Hardly seems to be the same as the Arabic word.
> 
> This word seems quite Arabic to me.



The borrowing probably happened via Greek (sigillion), where the meaning of Latin sigillum actually changed, see for example http://orthodoxwiki.org/Sigillion --> which is much closer to the Arabic meaning, especially in its Quranic usage.
يوم نطوي السماء كطي السجل للكتب
"The Day that We roll up the heavens like a scroll rolled up for books (completed)" (Translation by Yusuf Ali)


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## Abu Rashid

rayloom said:


> The borrowing probably happened via Greek (sigillion), where the meaning of Latin sigillum actually changed, see for example http://orthodoxwiki.org/Sigillion --> which is much closer to the Arabic meaning, especially in its Quranic usage.
> يوم نطوي السماء كطي السجل للكتب
> "The Day that We roll up the heavens like a scroll rolled up for books (completed)" (Translation by Yusuf Ali)



Is scroll the original meaning though? This root is used as a verb for recording or inscribing things, keeping a record and the like. One would think the noun then probably arose from that, a record that is kept or recorded.

Perhaps سجين is related to this Greek word though? As it refers to a scroll.


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## fdb

There is a long article on sijjil and related words in Acta Orientalia (Copenhagen), LX  (1999) pp. 82-95. Needless to say, all of these words were not borrowed DIRECTLY from Latin to Arabic, by via Greek and some dialect of Aramaic.


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## Abu Rashid

fdb said:


> There is a long article on sijjil and related words in Acta Orientalia (Copenhagen), LX  (1999) pp. 82-95. Needless to say, all of these words were not borrowed DIRECTLY from Latin to Arabic, by via Greek and some dialect of Aramaic.



Right, yet no such word exists in Aramaic, indicating it's highly unlikely a borrowing occurred here.


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## fdb

Abu Rashid said:


> Right, yet no such word exists in Aramaic, indicating it's highly unlikely a borrowing occurred here.



sigillum occurs in Syriac both as ܣܝܓܝܠܝܘܢ  and as ܣܓܠܐ . References can be found in the cited article p. 69.


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## berndf

Abu Rashid said:


> Right, yet no such word exists in Aramaic, indicating it's highly unlikely a borrowing occurred here.


Fdb certainly didn't mean that a loan had to pass though both, Greek and Aramaic but that some loans passed through Greek and some through Aramaic.

Direct loan from Greek are plausible as the Nabataeans, the most important link between Arabic and Eastern Roman cultures, changed their literary language from Aramaic to Geek in Byzantine times.


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## fdb

I would maintain that virtually all Greek and Latin loanwords in classical Arabic entered Arabic via Aramaic. I do not actually know what you mean by “Byzantine” times. The Nabataean kingdom was absorbed by the caliphate in the middle of the 7th century after which there are no more inscriptions either in Aramaic or in Greek from the Nabataean area.


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## berndf

fdb said:


> I would maintain that virtually all Greek and Latin loanwords in classical Arabic entered Arabic via Aramaic. I do not actually know what you mean by “Byzantine” times. The Nabataean kingdom was absorbed by the caliphate in the middle of the 7th century after which there are no more inscriptions either in Aramaic or in Greek from the Nabataean area.


End of the 4th century until the Islamic conquests. From this period, virtually all inscriptions at Nabataean sites are in Greek.


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## fdb

Fair enough, but in usual historical terminology the period from Constantine to Heraclius is "late antiquity" and only after Heraclius (and the Islamic conquests) do we have the "Byzantine" period.


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## WadiH

Abu Rashid said:


> I'm not saying it isn't Arabic, it just seems illogical to me for it to be derived from the root primarily meaning short. Language isn't always logical though.



It's not illogical.  I always understood intuitively the connection between the Najdi "gaSr" and the root for q-s-r.  I only checked Lisaan Al-Arab for it yesterday and it confirmed how I'd always understood it.  You just need to bear in mind that the meaning "short" easily leads to the meaning of "limit" (even in English).  Like I said, there is the word مقصورة from the same root which means something very similar to قصر yet is clearly not a loan. I will quote some relevant portions from the LAA entry:

والقَصْرُ الغاية؛ قاله أَبو زيد وغيره؛ وأَنشد: عِشْ ما بدا لك، قَصْرُكَ المَوْتُ،
And "qasr" is the limit, e.g. "live as long as you wish, your "qasr" is death"

. يقال: قَصْرُك أَن تفعل كذا أَي حسبك وكفايتك وغايتك، وكذلك قُصارُك وقُصارَاك، وهو من معنى القَصْرِ الحَبْسِ 

When it is said "your qasr (qasruka) is to do so and so, that is your limit, in the same meaning as to keep (Habs)

.
وفي حديث معاذ: فإِنَّ له ما قَصَرَ في بيته أَي ما حَبَسَه.

And in the Hadith of Muaath: "for he shall have what he has "qasar" in his house meaning "kept" [from others]"

بو زيد: يقال أَبْلِغ هذا الكلامَ بني فلان قَصْرَةً ومَقْصُورةً أَي دون الناس، وقد سميت المَقْصورة مَقْصُورَةً لأَنها قُصِرَت على الإِمام دون الناس.

And the "maqSuurah" (imam's chamber) was so called because it is off-limits [qaSurat] to all people but the imam.
.
والقَصْرُ من البناء: معروف، وقال اللحياني: هو المنزل، وقيل: كل بيت من حَجَر، قُرَشِيَّةٌ، سمي بذلك لأَنه تُقصَرُ فيه الحُرَمُ أَي تُحْبس، وجمعه قُصُور.

And "qasr", a type of building, as is well know.  Al-LiHyani said: it is a dwelling [notice: dwelling, not castle or army camp], or it is said any house made of stone, [the word is] of Qurashi origin, so-called because the harem are kept therein (tuqSar, tuHbas), and its plural is "quSuur."
والمَقْصُورة: الدار الواسعة المُحَصَّنَة،وقيل: هي أَصغر من الدار، وهو من ذلك أَيضاً.
والقَصُورَةُ والمَقْصورة: الحَجَلَةُ؛ عن اللحياني. الليث: المَقْصُورَة مقام الإِمام، وقال: إِذا كانت دار واسعة مُحَصَّنة الحيطان فكل ناحية منها على حِيالِها مَقْصُورة، وجمعها مَقاصِرُ ومَقاصِيرُ؛ وأَنشد:ومن دونِ لَيْلى مُصْمَتاتُ المَقاصِرِ المُصْمَتُ: المُحْكَمُ.
وقُصارَةُ الدار: مَقْصُورة منها لا يدخلها غير صاحب الدار. 

And the "maqSuurah": a spacious, fortified house, and it is also said that it is smaller than a house ... Al-Laith said: a "maqSuurah" is the chamber of the Imam and that if a house is spacious with secure walls then every part of it is "maqsuurah" [delimited] and tis plural is "maqaaSir" and "maqaaSiir".  And the "quSaarah" of a house: carved-out of it (maqSuuratun minha) so that only the owner of the house may enter it.

So based on the above, I think there is a very plausible and reasonable Arabic derivation for it.  I would also note that the founding myth of Hajr Al-Yamamah (modern-day Riyadh), recorded in the early Islamic era, states that it was a group of abandoned mansions or houses (quSuur) and that the chief of the Bani Hanifa tribe drew lines in the earth around it signifying that he had taken it for himself and his posterity.  This is deep in the heart of the Peninsuala -- you don't need to go to the far north or the far south to find "quSuur."  So, "quSuur" have always been a pervasive part of Arabian culture.




Magmod said:


> This is why I started this thread so that one doesn't follow blindly _Lisaan ul-'Arab and other biased dictionaries._



Biased how and towards what exactly?  Or is he immediately disqualified because he's Arab?  By the way, I arrived at the connection with the root "q-s-r" myself before checking Liaan ul-Arab, just so you know I wasn't "blindly" following anything.  I'm still waiting for evidence that "q-s-r" comes from "castrum."  You can be sure that I will take it on board (I have a history on this forum of changing my mind in the face of evidence).

By the way, Lisaan ul Arab contains very little original material.  It is a compilation of many earlier traditions, set side by side, which are sometimes in disagreement with each other.  It's quite remarkable for its objectivity and thoroughness.  You should read it sometime.


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## WadiH

rayloom said:


> Yes I guess the main issue was the lack of cognates in other Semitic languages, and the presence of what appears to be the origin of these words in Latin (in this case).
> Andras Rajki's Arabic Etymological Dictionary doesn't list though that balad is from Latin palatium. But as Abu Rahid mentioned, the only cognate that exists is in Sabaic.



I don't think the lack of cognates proves anything, but that point is moot given that there apparently _is_ a cognate (in Sabaic).  But what strengthens the case for borrowing in my view is the lack of any derivations from the root in Arabic, other than plurals and feminine forms of "balad."


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## WadiH

Abu Rashid said:


> I don't think anyone's disputing that. The point is, why would the root for short be used for a gigantic dwelling?



Where did you get the idea that a "qaSr" had to be gigantic?  That might be the case in 2012, but as recent as a few decades ago, it wasn't.


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## WadiH

fdb said:


> I would maintain that virtually all Greek and Latin loanwords in classical Arabic entered Arabic via Aramaic. I do not actually know what you mean by “Byzantine” times. The Nabataean kingdom was absorbed by the caliphate in the middle of the 7th century after which there are no more inscriptions either in Aramaic or in Greek from the Nabataean area.



The Nabatean kingdom was long gone by the time the Caliphs came on the scene.


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## berndf

fdb said:


> Fair enough, but in usual historical terminology the period from Constantine to Heraclius is "late antiquity" and only after Heraclius (and the Islamic conquests) do we have the "Byzantine" period.


That is not a contradiction. The Byzantine period overlaps with late antiquity. The way I learned to term, the Byzantine period began with the division of 395 and reached from late antiquity to the middle ages. Some people even count most of the 4th century in the east to the Byzantine period.


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## rayloom

fdb said:


> I would maintain that virtually all Greek and Latin loanwords in classical Arabic entered Arabic via Aramaic. I do not actually know what you mean by “Byzantine” times. The Nabataean kingdom was absorbed by the caliphate in the middle of the 7th century after which there are no more inscriptions either in Aramaic or in Greek from the Nabataean area.



You can't be sure that "virtually all Greek and Latin loanwords in classical Arabic entered Arabic via Aramaic".
The Nabateans had direct contact with the Romans. The Ghassanids ruled Hellenized Syria. Greek was used as the official language of the Umayyad diwan al-kharaj in Syria (and Egypt) until early in the 8th century.


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## Abu Rashid

fdb said:


> sigillum occurs in Syriac both as ܣܝܓܝܠܝܘܢ  and as ܣܓܠܐ . References can be found in the cited article p. 69.



I have not found it in any Aramaic dictionary, how far back is it attested?



fdb said:


> I would maintain that virtually all Greek and Latin loanwords in classical Arabic entered Arabic via Aramaic. I do not actually know what you mean by “Byzantine” times. The Nabataean kingdom was absorbed by the caliphate in the middle of the 7th century after which there are no more inscriptions either in Aramaic or in Greek from the Nabataean area.



By the time the Islamic civilisation expanded into Bilad ash-Sham (Levant) the Nabataeans were long gone, the only remains of them were their buildings and their tales. Bilad ash-Sham was by this time ruled by Byzantine vassals, the Ghassanid Arabs.


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## fdb

The former is in both Payne Smith and Brockelmann. The attestations are from the Islamic period, but the spelling with -ywn shows that it is not borrowed from Arabic, but from Greek.


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## Abu Rashid

Wadi Hanifa said:


> And the "maqSuurah": a spacious, fortified house, and it is also said that it is smaller than a house ... Al-Laith said: a "maqSuurah" is the chamber of the Imam and that if a house is spacious with secure walls then every part of it is "maqsuurah" [delimited] and tis plural is "maqaaSir" and "maqaaSiir".  And the "quSaarah" of a house: carved-out of it (maqSuuratun minha) so that only the owner of the house may enter it.
> 
> So based on the above, I think there is a very plausible and reasonable Arabic derivation for it.  I would also note that the founding myth of Hajr Al-Yamamah (modern-day Riyadh), recorded in the early Islamic era, states that it was a group of abandoned mansions or houses (quSuur) and that the chief of the Bani Hanifa tribe drew lines in the earth around it signifying that he had taken it for himself and his posterity.  This is deep in the heart of the Peninsuala -- you don't need to go to the far north or the far south to find "quSuur."  So, "quSuur" have always been a pervasive part of Arabian culture.




OK sounds plausible enough. Never thought of it like that.


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## fdb

And of course, instead of "Nabataean kingdom" I should have said "the territories previously ruled by the Nabataeans".


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## Abu Rashid

fdb said:


> The former is in both Payne Smith and Brockelmann. The attestations are from the Islamic period, but the spelling with -ywn shows that it is not borrowed from Arabic, but from Greek.



Found it, thanks.

Why would that ending indicate a Greek origin? Doesn't the Greek end in -um?


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## fdb

No, the Greek form is sigillion.


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## berndf

Abu Rashid said:


> Doesn't the Greek end in -um?


_Sigillum_ (the etymon of English _seal_) is the Latin word _Σιγίλλιον_ is derived from, itself being a diminutive of _signum_.


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## fdb

If anyone has access to a university library they might want to chase this up:

de Blois, Francois (1999)  'Hijaratun min sijjil.'  _Acta Orientalia_, LX. pp. 82-95.

Also this:

Search Results — Brill


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## Ihsiin

I find the idea of بلد coming from Latin _palatium _rather unconvincing because the words are too far apart both semantically and phonetically. We would expect _palat-_ entering Arabic during this period (first half of the first millennium of the Common Era) to produce something more like فلاط, and with a meaning closer to 'palace' than that of بلد.


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