# Листом стелется, да укусить целится



## tristein

Hi,

Does the proverb листом стелется, да укусить целится refer to critical political commentary? Is укусить often used figuratively in Russian?

Thanks!


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## Maroseika

This is rather rare Russian proverb, so it's hard to say what it referes to - to anything you want, actually. There are also other proverbs with the same sense: Мягко стелит, да жестко спать.
Укусить - yes, it's often used figuratively:
укусить - to insult
also:
цены кусаются - too high prices
прикусить язык - to shut up


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## rusita preciosa

You need to provide context. Out of context it seems to refer to someone who looks like they are trying to please (i.e. листом стелется) but in reality has bad intentions (i.e. укусить целится )


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## tristein

I first came across it as the sub-head to an article here http://www.sovross.ru/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=591599. The entire sub-head reads 
*
*Листом стелется, да укусить целится…
Социалка со звериным оскалом

Maroseika's reply has me wondering if the different lexical forms (прикусить, укусить, кусаться) translated into English as "bite" carry semantic subtleties that I'm missing. The reflexive form puzzles me. If цены кусаются means "prices are too high", it seems to me that the prices are biting the consumer not themselves. Is кусаются regularly used in a non-figurative sense?

Thanks once again for your help!


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## rusita preciosa

*Reflexive* in the case of кусать/кусаться (it is not a general rule):
кусаться - to bite as a property / to have a habit to bite. I'm not sure how to explain the reflexive linguistically, but to me as a native speaker it refers to a property of the object, e.g. *собака кусается *= dog bites (in generally; has a habit to bite) whereas *собака кусает *- the dog is biting (now). It is also used in figurative sense (mostly with "prices).
*
Prefixes*: In Russian the prefix is one of the most common ways to semantically modify a verb. Off the top of my head:
прикусить - to bite a little / to bite one's tongue
укусить - to bite (once)
закусить - to eat something after taking a drink
выкусить - vulgar (similat to English bite me!)
вкусить - old fashioned for "eat / taste" (e.g. that's what Adam and Eve did with the forbidden fruit)
откусить - to bite off
etc...


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## gvozd

tristein said:


> If цены кусаются means "prices are too high", it seems to me that the prices are biting the consumer not themselves.



Why? Prices are biting us. We can't approach them therefore


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## tristein

Awesome answers!

Thank you.


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## rusita preciosa

I just thought that the "rule" кусать/кусаться can ben applicable to animal aggression in general:
корова бодает/бодается - cow (butts with horns?)
кошка царапает/царапается - cat scratches
лошадь лягает/лягается - horse kicks
попугай клюёт/клюётся - parrot pecks


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## tristein

rusita preciosa, your last observation is very interesting! Do you think that this rule is more general? For example, does it apply to non-aggressive animal behavior? Or to aggressive behavior but by non-animates?


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## e2-e4 X

tristein said:


> For example, does it apply to non-aggressive animal behavior? Or to aggressive behavior but by non-animates?


This rule is applicable to any behaviour that is directed towards others, but characterizes mostly the subject of the action:
Кошка ластится ~ The cat {fawns}/{is fawning}
Мальчик кидается ~ The boy {is casting things}/{casts things}
Девочка обзывается ~ The girl {calls names}/{is calling names}
Лучник целится ~ The archer is pointing his weapon at somebody

Interesting, the reciprocal particle is used also when the action, again, characterizes mostly the subject of the action, but the action is either directed towards the subject himself, possibly by others, or not directed anywhere: "он обижается" ~ "he feels hurt" ~ "его обидели" ~ "they hurted him"; "он отказывается" ~ "he refuses"; "он собирается в путешествие" ~ "he is planning to make a trip", "человек играется" ~ "the person is playing games".


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## rusita preciosa

e2-e4 X said:


> This rule is applicable to any behaviour that is directed towards others, but characterizes mostly the subject of the action:



I disagree with that. 

Кошка ластится and кошка царапается are different: кошка царапается in most cases means this cat scratches (in generaL, it is its chrarcteristic) whereas кошка ластится means the cat is robbing on someone now, it is not its characteristic (for that you say ласковая кошка - sweet cat). 

You would say "не надо гладить мою кошку, она царапается", but the expression would not work for positive behavior, you would use an adjective.
For example, you can't say "мою кошку можно погладить, она ластится" - it does not mean anything.

Мальчик кидается/Девочка обзывается could be either in general or right now, depending on the context.

I think in general, it tends to be the case for aggressive behavior of animals, but don't forget the context.


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## elemika

I agree with  both of you,
and to be precise, here are some other examples:

-  ой, этот кустик колется! (about a spiny bush )

- "он живой и светится"! (about a lightning bug)

-  не люблю ее, она ругается / дразнится / обзывается (e2 ) / толкается / пихается / плюется (unfortunately the agressive behaviour isn't the prerogative of the animals )


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## e2-e4 X

rusita preciosa said:


> I disagree with that.


Yes, I was inaccurate with using words. By "characterizes" I did not mean something necessarily general; I just meant that such use of the verb brings the focus of the description towards the subject and not to anything else — you see, the object of the action is not even called, it is only implied, as it is not very important for the description; naturally, reciprocal verbs can't be transitive in Russian. Of course, the description might apply either to the moment, or to things in general, that depends, as you rightly say next; I was not talking of these semantical variations.



> I think in general, it tends to be the case for aggressive behavior of animals, but don't forget the context.


Looks so, especially if we consider humans to be animals as well: "он нехороший, он толкается". And all the other examples by elemika...


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## rusita preciosa

elemika said:


> I agree with both of you,
> and to be precise, here are some other examples:
> 
> - ой, этот кустик колется! (about a spiny bush )
> 
> - "он живой и светится"! (about a lightning bug)
> 
> - не люблю ее, она ругается / дразнится / обзывается (e2 ) / толкается / пихается / плюется (unfortunately the agressive behaviour isn't the prerogative of the animals )



Yes, but ругается / дразнится / обзывается can be said about both the *action taking place now *and the *general characteristic *of the person.

For example, 
мы не приглашаем Мишу, потому что он дерётся - we do not invite Misha because he fights (always, it is his charactreistic)
but also
Миша дерётся с Васей на детской площадке - Misha is fighting with Vassya on the playground - they are fighting right now (here the reflexive is used because they fight *each other*)

Whereas кошка царапается is mostly a cat’s charactristic rather than what it is doing at the moment. For present action you would say кошка царапает.


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## e2-e4 X

rusita preciosa said:


> Whereas кошка царапается is mostly a cat’s charactristic rather than what it is doing at the moment. For present action you would say кошка царапает.


I would not agree with this.

- Сними кошку оттуда!
- Как?!
- Возьми её в руки!
- Не могу, она царапается!  (that is, "it is scratching" currently, now)

I can't imagine "она царапает" here. In fact, it is very hard for me to imagine, where and how "кошка царапает" (imperfective) would sound not strange. Only with perfective verbs: "она меня исцарапала!"


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## elemika

rusita preciosa said:


> Whereas кошка царапается is mostly a cat’s charactristic rather than what it is doing at the moment. For present action you would say кошка царапает.



Hi, Rusita ,
maybe I'm missing something,
but can't we say: 
У нас ласковая кошка, но сегодня она царапается, потому что ей сделали прививку - пока лучше ее не гладить
???

Oops, e2 is the first!


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## rusita preciosa

To me, "Не могу, она царапается" and "но сегодня она царапается" are both the characteristics (temporary) of the cat rather than the action it is performing.
You can say "Не могу, она злая" or "но сегодня она злая" and it will mean the same as above.

When you say кошка царапает диван (right now), you cannot replace царапает with злая, because царапает is an action and злая is a characteristic.


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## elemika

Well, another attempt:
Она мяукает, царапается и вырывается из рук.


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## e2-e4 X

rusita preciosa said:


> To me, "Не могу, она царапается" and "но сегодня она царапается" are both the characteristics (temporary) of the cat rather than the action it is performing.
> You can say "Не могу, она злая" or "но сегодня она злая" and it will mean the same as above.
> 
> When you say кошка царапает диван (right now), you cannot replace царапает with злая, because царапает is an action and злая is a characteristic.


Rusita, I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with. It is the same with, say, "дразнится": you can say, "он дразнится" to characterize the "he" (either generally or for the moment) with the way he is acting, and you can say "он меня постоянно/нынче дразнит" to express the action that characterizes both you and him, and your relations as well, either current or general.

PS: All the way I was (and am) referring to the difference between an action that characterizes the subject for the most part (a "characteristic") and an action that characterizes equally the subject and the object (an "action").


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## rusita preciosa

elemika said:


> Well, another attempt:
> Она мяукает, царапается и вырывается из рук.



 It is definitely an action! What would be our advice for the "future generations" then?


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## elemika

I'm not sure I quite understand ...

Не тянуть кота за хвост?


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## rusita preciosa

No, what is our advice for the future non-native speakers who will be reading this topic. How do the pairs like царапается/царапает work and why царапается is reflexive while the action is not directed at the subject itself...


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## e2-e4 X

rusita preciosa said:


> You can say "Не могу, она злая" or "но сегодня она злая" and it will mean the same as above.


In the first example — not quite. Rather one could replace it by "она сейчас злится", but it does not sound very well for me. Just imagine a cat who is fighting for her right to sit on the roof, and you say, "она царапается" (even if it is quite calm usually)...

[Addition]


> How do the pairs like  царапается/царапает work and why царапается is reflexive while the  action is not directed at the subject itself...


Well, while the action is not directed at the subject, the description is. This is the reason, I reckon...


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## elemika

rusita preciosa said:


> No, what is our advice for the future non-native speakers who will be reading this topic. How do the pairs like царапается/царапает work and why царапается is reflexive while the action is not directed at the subject itself...


But you have done a good work , 
with logic & patience of a true researcher!



> I'm not sure how to explain the reflexive linguistically....it refers to a property of the object





> can be applicable to animal aggression in general



And this one of e2: 


> Interesting, the reciprocal particle is used also when the action, again, characterizes mostly the subject of the action



Для "царапаться" словарь дает (*одно из значений*): иметь склонность, *иметь повадку* царапать (*to be in the habit of*...)

It could work in the same way in the other cases ....

But I'd wait for e2' opinion Ahh, I'm late...again and again


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## e2-e4 X

elemika said:


> Для "царапаться" словарь дает (*одно из значений*): иметь склонность, *иметь повадку* царапать (*to be in the habit of*...)


И второе значение (Ожегов, всего в словаре приведено три) — "наносить царапины кому-нибудь или друг другу" ("to scratch someone else or each other").

Соответственно, выбор зависит от контекста и от настроения.


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## bodryachkom

This -ся in question is not the reflective one. It ia called "intransitive" and is used here to show that the action doesn't have any paricular object. "Собака кусает" needs someone to get bit. "Собака кусается" is just a quality of this dog. Same for рождаться - you don't give birth to yourself, -ся means here that there i no one but only you as an object here.


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## turkjey5

e2-e4 X said:


> would sound not strange.



would not sound strange.

BTW, what is Социалка?
Листом стелется, да укусить целится…
Социалка со звериным оскалом
Thanks!!


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## gvozd

turkjey5 said:


> would not sound strange.
> 
> BTW, what is Социалка?
> Листом стелется, да укусить целится…
> Социалка со звериным оскалом
> Thanks!!



I am not sure, but I think you call that flat rate. The fare you pay for your apartment. Социалка is probably социльная политика.


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