# Русский vs российский



## ramonunodos

(...)

With regard to the "русская", would I be able to use "российская"  as the adjective form of what I'm trying to say?

Thanks again!


----------



## ahvalj

ramonunodos said:


> Interesting, thanks for the new word, I'll keep that in mind in the future.
> 
> With regard to the "русская", would I be able to use "российская"  as the adjective form of what I'm trying to say?
> 
> Thanks again!


_Русская_ means ethnicity (cp. English), _российская_ means affiliation with the country (cp. British). If your teacher is an ethnic Russian (i. e. not Jewish etc.) and you want to emphasize this, you can use _русская_, if you want to emphasize that she permanently lives in Russia, you can use _российская_. I mentioned Jewish because proper Russians are often very sensitive when they are confused with Jews originating from the former USSR.


----------



## ramonunodos

Interesting once again, thanks for all your help!!


----------



## ahvalj

ramonunodos said:


> Interesting once again, thanks for all your help!!


Also, _русская_ can be used as a noun, whereas _российская_ cannot, in which case you have to use a very official word _россиянка_ (_моя преподавательница — россиянка_).


----------



## Словеса

ahvalj said:


> I mentioned Jewish because proper Russians are often very sensitive when they are confused with Jews originating from the former USSR.


I never attempted to really consider whether I am a "proper" or "improper" Russian, but I am sensitive to the suggestion that I may be sensitive to confusing me with a Jew... Anyway, two points:
1) the word русская in the sentence from the first post is a noun; the word российская cannot be a noun and cannot be used there;
2) the adjective русский may be used fine quite in some contexts related to Russia as a country; for instance, русский учёный may be actually a Georgian who happened to live and work in USSR. Or, well, an Udmurt. Российская преподавательница might sound overprecise often enough.


----------



## Awwal12

ahvalj said:


> _Русская_ means ethnicity (cp. English), _российская_ means affiliation with the country (cp. British). If your teacher is an ethnic Russian (i. e. not Jewish etc.) and you want to emphasize this, you can use _русская_, if you want to emphasize that she permanently lives in Russia, you can use _российская_.


If we speak about females, "россия́нка" would sound much, much better anyway. "Российская" may refer to, say, a car, but i hardly would ever use that word regarding a teacher.


----------



## Awwal12

Словеса said:


> 2) the adjective русский may be used fine quite in some contexts related to Russia as a country; for instance, русский учёный may be actually a Georgian who happened to live and work in USSR. Or, well, an Udmurt.


I'm sorry, but never. In that case, he will be "советский ученый" (the only possible variant). "Русский" without strong ethnic implications may refer to the Russian Empire only (cf. "великий русский ученый Дмитрий Иванович Менделеев"), and if we speak about the modern Russia, it's "российский".


----------



## ahvalj

Awwal12 said:


> I'm sorry, but never. In that case, he will be "советский ученый" (the only possible variant). "Русский" without strong ethnic implications may refer to the Russian Empire only (cf. "великий русский ученый Дмитрий Иванович Менделеев"), and if we speak about the modern Russia, it's "российский".


Yes, the Soviet time has changed all this when the adjective denoting the affiliation with the country became _советский _whereas _русский_ became confined to the prerevolutionary Russia or to the ethnic matters (except for a short period in the late Stalin times). Rastrelli can be _великий русский архитектор_, but when _Лев Рубинштейн_ is called _русский поэт, _this often sounds improper. What to do with _Дина Рубина_, who is neither _русская_, nor _российская_, I don't know. Obviously, the language needs more adjectives and nouns to clarify the possible relationships. 
_
Update. Русскоязычная_ is OK (cp. _francophone_), but sounds ugly.


----------



## ahvalj

Awwal12 said:


> If we speak about females, "россия́нка" would sound much, much better anyway. "Российская" may refer to, say, a car, but i hardly would ever use that word regarding a teacher.


Well, in principle, you may say _а у нас — российская преподавательница_.


----------



## ahvalj

Also, an interesting fact. As far as I know, the word _русский_ in the names of the institutions is informal and can be used freely as any other word. In contrast, to include the word _российский_ you need to obtain a special permission as it will imply an official all-Russian status (_Русское географическое общество_ vs. _Российская академия наук_).


----------



## Awwal12

ahvalj said:


> Well, in principle, you may say _а у нас — российская преподавательница_.


As an attributive - well, yes, it's at least potentially possible; but as a predicate (наша преподавательница - российская)?.. I really couldn't imagine that.


----------



## ahvalj

Awwal12 said:


> As an attributive - well, yes, it's at least potentially possible; but as a predicate (наша преподавательница - российская)?.. I really couldn't imagine that.


Yes, but this is also true for any adjective denoting ethnicity: for some reasons, the constructions _наша преподавательница — немецкая_ are not welcomed by the language. _Русская_ only passes here as a noun.


----------



## Словеса

Awwal12 said:


> I'm sorry, but never. In that case, he will be "советский ученый" (the only possible variant). "Русский" without strong ethnic implications may refer to the Russian Empire only (cf. "великий русский ученый Дмитрий Иванович Менделеев"), and if we speak about the modern Russia, it's "российский".


Okay, let us agree to disagree. I have no problem with Жорес Алфёров — русский физик and Жорес Алфёров — российский нобелевский лауреат (though honestly I don't know what his ethnicity is; add to that that ethnicity is often a too complicated question). The same with Григорий Чхартишвили — русский писатель. As for the difference with советский/российский or советский/русский, I think it's getting lost in history... though may be important.


----------



## ahvalj

Словеса said:


> Okay, let us agree to disagree. I have no problem with Жорес Алфёров — русский физик and Жорес Алфёров — российский нобелевский лауреат (though honestly I don't know what his ethnicity is; add to that that ethnicity is often a too complicated question). The same with Григорий Чхартишвили — русский писатель. As for the difference with советский/российский or советский/русский, I think it's getting lost in history... though may be important.


You are arguing against the language reality. I agree that you and some/many other people don't see any problem in extending the word _русский_ as wide as you desire, but many other people do, and this is what I meant several posts above.


----------



## Drink

ahvalj has it right, you can't use your own personal opinions to predict how someone else will react. I often find myself having to make the uncomfortable decision of whether to describe myself as "русский" or "русскоговорящий".


----------



## Словеса

The point is, there is nothing but personal opinions for this question, so indeed you can't predict how someone else will react. So here, nobody was more right than the others.


----------



## Angelo di fuoco

Awwal12 said:


> As an attributive - well, yes, it's at least potentially possible; but as a predicate (наша преподавательница - российская)?.. I really couldn't imagine that.



наша преподавательница - русская/ россиянка (rather improbable)/ наша преподавательница (родом) из России
the same with немка & (родом) из Германии


----------



## ahvalj

Angelo di fuoco said:


> наша преподавательница - русская/ россиянка (rather improbable)/ наша преподавательница (родом) из России
> the same with немка & (родом) из Германии


You wouldn't say _россиянка_ here, but abroad and in this specific _didactic Russian _it would be more acceptable. After all, there is nothing wrong with this word: it was in use since at least the 18th century, and only went out of favor in the Soviet times following the disappearance of the country those _россияне_ inhabited. Yeltsin was trying to reintroduce _россиянин/россиянка_ in the 90's, without much success, yet I think it is inevitable that this word will become pretty standard some time in the future, especially with all the immigrational disaster we are experiencing now.

_Родом из_ is very good indeed, probably the best variant.


----------



## amazingenough

Словеса said:


> The point is, there is nothing but personal opinions for this question, so indeed you can't predict how someone else will react. So here, nobody was more right than the others.



здесь нет никаких персональных предпочтений. И все чрезвычайно просто. Человек либо русский по национальности, либо нет. Или полукровка. 

Однако кем бы он ни был по нации, если у него паспорт РФ, то человек просто россиянин. Ты путаешь 2 разных концепции - с одной стороны гражданскую нацию (США, Бразилия или Израиль - любой, кто подписывается на ряд правил и проходит ряд процедур, может считать себя американцем, бразильцем или евреем) и с другой стороны этническую принадлежность, которую нельзя изменить. Т.е. нельзя быть "русским" евреем *(...).* Это не имеет смысла. Разве что-то может быть одновременно сладким и горьким? или круглым и квадратным? Нет.


----------



## Словеса

I was not speaking of ethnicities or nationalities. I was speaking of the language. In language, one word is used to mean a great number of things, one could not say the matter is "simple", if one is faithful. I would prefer to address each other with вы, please. I would also prefer to avoid referring to unidentified qualitative generalisations, that's not a nice way of talking and is not a way to resolve any issue or question. Also, notice that I did not suggest the locution "русский еврей" (or "русский удмурт", for that matter), you were the one who suggested it.


----------



## Angelo di fuoco

Угу... а в США уже давно считается политически некорректным говорить "негр" - вместо этого используется слово "афроамериканец" - по аналогии есть и "италоамериканцы", и много кто ещё. В чём здесь принципиальное отличие от якобы бессмысленного выражения "русский еврей"?


----------



## Maroseika

_*Moderatorial:*

Dear forerors,

Let me remind you the scope of the thread: it's not about afroamericans, Russian Jews or whatever else, it is *русский vs российский when applied to the persons. *And this question seems to have been exhaustively answered in the post # 2, to the greater satisfaction of the topicstarter.
So, if you wish to talk about a related subject that is different from the question  posed in the first post of the thread, open a new thread. 
_


----------



## service1077

This is correct.Russian means nationality, rossiiskaya mean belong to country


----------



## ahvalj

service1077 said:


> Russian means nationality


Ethnicity: English has reversed the original meanings of nationality and ethnicity. The Latin word _nātio_ (from _nātus_ "born") means "birth, origin, kin, tribe, ethnicity", i. e. relation by birth, whereas the Greek _ἔθνος_ (of unknown etymology) means "group, crowd, class, people", i. e. relation by aggregating.


----------

