# un bougnoule restera un bougnoule



## cirrus

The context for this is an article in Le Monde about the riots.  

I can't find it in any dictionary I have to hand.

Tu vois le délire du premier ministre ? Dans ce pays, un bougnoule restera un bougnoule.

Any ideas anyone?

Thanks for your help in advance


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## clairedbf

a bougnoule is a person from north africa, it's a slang word (quiet old)

it just means that foreigners will always be foreigners...


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## Gordo

Hi Cirrus, I think clairedbf's answer is diplomatically pc. In English the unfortunate rendering would be 'a wog is still a wog'. Gordo.


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## cirrus

Thanks for that


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## voyager

C'est la même chose, on la voit dans "Le Monde" juste aujourd'hui:
_font chier, les bougnoules_

_Merci pour l'avoir expliqué on ne trouve ça facilement dans un dictionnaire_


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## Staarkali

I don't know about _wog _but _bougnoule_ is very offensive for maghrebin or French people from maghrebin descendance (therefore try to avoid it when addressing them if you are trying to make friend  ). Equivalents include _rital_ for people with Italian blood, _schleu_ for German or _rosebeef_ for English.


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## voyager

Don't worry, was  not intending it to use it to address shop assistants...
Amaicalement


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## jlvlacroix

Bougnoule est un terme très offensant signifiant noir ou musulman, selon que l'on a été/est confronté à l'un ou à l'autre en ce qui concerne l'immigration ou les colonies. 
Equivalent à coon ou neger aux E.-U.


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## joelooc

Il n'y a aucun équivalent d'un pays à un autre pour les termes discriminatoires basés sur les différences ethniques ou raciales. Le public ciblé étant chaque fois spécifiquement caractérisé par le public émetteur en fonction de l'effet souhaité et de la période considérée.


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## jlvlacroix

clairedbf said:


> a bougnoule is a person from north africa, it's a slang word (quiet old)


Il est vrai que j'aurais dû préciser que je répondais à clairedbf.
Et oui, il est clair que pour coon et neger, il n'y a aucun doute quant au "public ciblé".


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## JClaudeK

jlvlacroix said:


> un terme très offensant signifiant noir ou musulman [....] Equivalent à coon ou neger aux E.-U.


Je ne suis pas d'accord avec ça.
En France métropolitaine, il y a eu un glissement de sens, ce terme offensant désigne (presque exclusivement) un Maghrébin ou un Arabe :


> bougnoule
> Appellation insultante envers les Maghrébins ou les Arabes.


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## jlvlacroix

JClaudeK said:


> Je ne suis pas d'accord avec ça.
> En France métropolitaine, il y a eu un glissement de sens, ce terme offensant désigne (presque exclusivement) un Maghrébin ou un Arabe :


Reconnaissez comme moi, qu'il n'y a pas que la France )
bougnoule
1. Nègre ou métis
2. Nord-Africain indigène


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## JClaudeK

jlvlacroix said:


> Reconnaissez comme moi, qu'il n'y a pas que la France


Bien sur, mais affirmer que _"bougnoule" = "signifiant noir ou musulman [....], equivalent à coon ou neger", _c'est tout simplement induire nos amis anglophones en erreur ! 

Il faut donner les deux significations
bougnoule — Wiktionnaire


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## Kecha

Je pense que jvlacroix voulait dire qu'appeler un Arabe "bougnoule" est du même niveau d'insulte et de mépris raciste que d'appeler un noir avec le "n word" (et non que l'un serait la traduction littérale de l'autre, les contextes géographiques, historiques, ethniques et migratoires étant différents).


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## Itisi

D'accord avec *Kecha*, c'est comme ça que je l'ai compris, moi aussi.  Et d'accord avec* jvlacroix* !


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## ain'ttranslationfun?

I've read the definition of "bougnole" as '(péj.) noir ou Maghrébin', too, but I think it's mostly used for the latter. In English, "bougnole" would be "raghead" (also in GB "sand nigger", I think). Both are "deadly insults" - à éviter!

Note also the spelling: "nigger" for "the n-word".


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## JClaudeK

ain'ttranslationfun? said:


> it's mostly used for the latter



J'en ai discuté avec mon entourage et on ne voulait même pas me croire qu'à l'origine ça s'utilisait (aussi) pour désigner les noirs.

L"équivalent de 'bougnoule'  pour une personne noire est "bamboula" !


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## syrita

So  I am being faced with this word. While there is the discussion about whether you can use the word 'wog' for North Africans, in a rude and historic context, (the seventies and eighties), could it ever be used for someone who is just working-class?

Here is my context:

Quand il t’aperçoit à travers le passe‑plat, il jure qu’il ne mangera jamais ici parce que « c’est de la cuisine de bougnoule » et que de toute façon, il a ses habitudes au restaurant du Parc, « une étoile au Michelin ». Tu ne supportes tellement pas sa présence que tu dis à Nicole de partir, que tu finiras la salle et le bar.

The cook in question is white working-class. He has been to Algeria in the war and there is mention briefly he liked the food there but he is absolutely white and his cuisine is real vintage French cooking of that era (chicken chasseur, steak-frites, fromage de tête etc_)_. Have you ever heard of using this term in relation to just working class food or is it that the person putting down the cook is just so snobbish and idiotic that he would be happy to call it "wog food" or maybe immigrant food? 

Clearly in the other contexts of the book immigrant/wog is the correct term?

Le contrôle expert de l’ouvrier hautement qualifié est remplacé par un dispositif visuel binaire : une lumière verte, la pièce usinée est aux bonnes dimensions, une lumière rouge, elle ne respecte pas les cotations. « Même un bougnoule qui ne sait ni lire ni écrire reconnaît les couleurs », pérore un professeur.

(the narrator is learning mechanical engineering) at school. 

Thanks!

Syrita


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## arundhati

Hello,
This word is still very, very offensive.
You could hear it in an ironic way said by someone from North Africa,  with the same idea that Afro-Americans could use "nigga".
On it's own, it's nothing less than an insult.


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## ZarLa

ain'ttranslationfun? said:


> In English, "bougnoule" would be "raghead" (also in GB "sand nigger", I think). Both are "*deadly insults*" - à éviter!
> Note also the spelling: "nigger" for "the n-word".


*Bougnoule's also a deadly racist insult !!!*



arundhati said:


> You could hear it in an ironic way said by someone from North Africa,  with the same idea that Afro-Americans could use "nigga".


Not exactly, we've never heard and will never heard a group of young men saying "bougnoule" at the end of every single phrase (as some americans do with the n-word).


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## syrita

I think the narrator is using it because essentially a lot of offensive terms were used as a matter of course in the seventies. People thought it was OK to use the term wog, etc. That's the point and that's not in question here whether it was insulting or not.  What I am asking is why would someone use it to refer to a white, working class chef? Nothing to do with US use of the word 'niggah' presently or historically. 

Thanks!

S


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## arundhati

syrita said:


> What I am asking is why would someone use it to refer to a white, working class chef? Nothing to do with US use of the word 'niggah' presently or historically.


It doesn't refer to him, but to his cuisine.


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## syrita

Aah, OK. That helps me a lot. Muck might be good. As would shit. Thank you! It would be nice to get the idea of his racism though too. Maybe greasy muck?


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## arundhati

We can suppose he doesn't like it, but it's not what is said. He doesn't like the food by principle, because it's the kind of meals made by North Africans.


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## syrita

Except the food isn't. The book is a celebration of French cooking. That's the problem! It's working class food which by association is immigrant, common food? That's all I can think.


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## arundhati

We don't have the whole book, but it's what the provided sentence means.
Maybe it's not what the food is, but it's what he says the food is


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## joelooc

The transposition in anglo-american language might be "chow"


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## syrita

Yes, I will have to keep it a neutral pejorative word as there simply isn't an equivalent in English.


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## arundhati

syrita said:


> Yes, I will have to keep it a neutral pejorative word as there simply isn't an equivalent in English.


So you will not translate but give a more acceptable version for sensitive ears


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## syrita

No I don't have a problem with wog , it just doesn't make sense in the context. So I will say something like 'shit'?


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## arundhati

I can't see how "shit" would fit in that case. You say "wog" doesn't make sense here because the cook is not North African, but again, you're editing the original meaning.


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## syrita

Yes. probably. I may use wog. I'm still thinking about if it's useable for North Africans. Maybe at the time the worse thing you could say to someone was that your food was like 'wog food' or 'dirty immigrant food'.


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## arundhati

There's no ambiguity for me in what the speaker says, he definitely wants to depreciate the cuisine, because it's the kind of food "those people" would make. If he just wanted to say that the food is awful, he would never use that kind of words. It's nothing but a racist comment.


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## syrita

Yes, it shows his racism and that he wants to put down working-class French food. I've just got to get that in English. Maybe 'like wog food'. The like makes all the difference in fact. And although it's not there in the French, it's implied, that implication was what I didn't understand, along with the fact it was referring to the food not him. I was taking it too literally.


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## iuytr

Dans le contexte du post #18 de Syrita (french cook), il s'agit sans doute d'une insulte générique, en quelque sorte ,basée sur une appréciation raciste de la qualité du travail d'une communauté , comme "travail d'arabe". Cela veut dire travail bâclé, de mauvaise qualité. Voir aussi "travail de cochon".
Cela ne veut pas dire que la cuisine s'inspire des traditions culinaires d'Afrique du Nord, ni que le cuisinier est arabe.
Ici , il rajoute un niveau d'insulte en utilisant le terme bougnoule.


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## syrita

Merci iuytr.  

Like wog food, as bad as wog food...


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## arundhati

I agree with iuytr, there's nothing "logical" in the words chosen to describe the cuisine, it's just a racist insult, and as it is, doesn't need to be relevant in the speaker's mouth.


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## syrita

Yes and the translation must convey that in English.


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## iuytr

See Un travail (d')arabe – Expressio par Reverso
He just precised _cuisine _(as a work) instead of the generic _travail _and added an insulting word synonym to arab.

Don't know if there is in english a racist way to say a botched job.


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## arundhati

syrita said:


> Yes and the translation must convey that in English.


I think so too, but I understand your trouble, it's always difficult to translate something like that, that doesn't really make sens unless you're in the head of some racist character


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## syrita

Thank you. We don't have an equivalent saying in French. In fact immigrant work is often regarded as usually better in the current times (Polish plumbers) lol so I have to get the idea of the French tradition (back then) of saying work by foreigners was bad and the fact he is a racist. No sweat! lol.

That's why '*like* wog food' captures all the nuances and the insult and the stupidity of the person insulting.


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## iuytr

The speaker can be a racist. Today , he would be considered as such , but a few years ago , this could be just considered a "normal" way to speak. (and even more in the 70').

En septembre 2016 il signale ces propos à la responsable des ressources humaines, lors d’un entretien. La direction lui répond en novembre de la même année, par lettre recommandée :



> Certains de vos collègues ont reconnu que l’expression "travail d’arabe" pouvait être employée sur les chantiers, mais qu’à aucun moment, elle ne visait une personne en particulier. Elle a été employée pour qualifier un travail " mal fait, bâclé ". Courante dans le milieu du bâtiment, cette expression provocante et péjorative ne saurait qualifier un comportement raciste à votre égard.



Elle mentionne également que l’entreprise ne peut cautionner de telles expressions, et qu’un travail de sensibilisation sera réalisé auprès des collègues de Rachid O.

source : «On me renvoie toujours à ma condition de "bougnoule"»


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## Itisi

Is the cook of southern origin and dark-skinned, by any chance?


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## syrita

Nope he looks like Steve McQueen. lol according to his son.


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## syrita

Politcal correctness is about getting rid of words that people who are not necessarily racist used but when you analyse that word it actually *is* racist. Some say it's  gone too far. Wog and nigger have always been pejorative I think, negro not. So I have to consider that now. A blackie might not have been then and is now. The next problem I have is can you use wog for an Arab?  I don't expect anyone to answer that but the problem is we don't have the history France has with North Africa. We have a word 'paki' for someone from Pakistan (an ex colony) that was commonplace in the seventies (the Paki shop) and not considered racist then but is considered racist now. No such equivalent for an Arab...


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## iuytr

You could find the same thing with "travail de portos" portos been a slang for portugais when there was a lot of immigrants from Portugal working in France in the building industry (50' and 60') .The people from North Africa came a bit later but the derogatory expression remained, just changing portos into arabe/bougnoule.

Edit : You can also find the less common "travail de polak", polak is slang for polish. It originated from a precedent immigration movement from Poland when polish came to work in french mining industry around the 20' and 30'.


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## arundhati

You certainly have a choice to make, personnaly I think the most important is to find a racist equivalent, more than a direct translation. As it's been already said, the cook is not North African so the accuracy of the comment is not central.


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## syrita

'Like dirty Arab food' 'Like dirty Arab muck'. I don't know of any UK insult for Arabs/North Africans then or now. Wog could possibly be used for anyone olive/dark skinned and foreign back then.


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## Blougouz

Steve McQ?... so depending on the context could it be like:
Shitty food, crap, low key food join...? In contrast with the one star Michelin restaurant?


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## syrita

Yes but it's good to get the sense he is likening it to Arab food as the ultimate insult. Later in the book, the protagonist discovers North African food and loves it so you need this sense of irony. It is touching on the fact that back in the seventies people were racist and saw foreign food as disgusting.


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## JClaudeK

syrita said:


> Yes but it's good to get the sense he is likening it to Arab food as the ultimate insult.


Je rejoins les autres qui disent que « de la cuisine de bougnoule » ne signifie pas   "Arab food" mais « de la cuisine de qualité médiocre » - cf.


iuytr said:


> See Un travail (d')arabe – Expressio par Reverso
> He just precised _cuisine _(as a work) instead of the generic _travail _and added an insulting word synonym to arab.






syrita said:


> The next problem I have is can you use wog for an Arab?


Selon la définition du Cambridge Dictionary


> an extremely offensive word for someone who does not have white skin


oui, d'après moi. Ce qui compte avant tout (dans les deux cas),   c'est le côte péjoratif.


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## syrita

Yes, but it's the historical use of it and context as much as the precise definition...

ps Thankyou!


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## Itisi

'Arab food' is too precise - not a good idea...  'Wog food' is more general (since 'wogs begin at Calais!', as the saying goes ).

I would prefer 'foreign rubbish'...


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## syrita

Yes, foreign rubbish is very good. The thing is 'bougnoule' is used throughout, later when describing how 'immigrants' don't need to read and write to be able to work on a factory line. Algeria looms large in the book and eventually the son learns to cook North African food and incorporates it into his repertoire of classic French dishes, so I would like to try and keep it but not sure I can...


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## ain'ttranslationfun?

Steve McQueen the actor (White) or Steve McQueen the director (Black)? 

"that crap/slop/garbage the Ay-rabs/ragheads eat"? (I like couscous.) 



Itisi said:


> 'foreign rubbish'


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## JClaudeK

Comment concilier


syrita said:


> his cuisine is real vintage French cooking of that era (chicken chasseur, steak-frites, fromage de tête etc_)_.


et 'foreign rubbish' -


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## broglet

Staarkali said:


> I don't know about _wog _but _bougnoule_ is very offensive for maghrebin or French people from maghrebin descendance (therefore try to avoid it when addressing them if you are trying to make friend  ). Equivalents include _rital_ for people with Italian blood, _schleu_ for German or _rosebeef_ for English.


J'ai un ami italien qui a dit "Je suis rital et j'en suis fier" et je suis content quand on m'appelle un rosbif -- je suppose que bougnole est beaucoup pire


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## JClaudeK

broglet said:


> je suppose que bougnoule est beaucoup pire


Oui, c'est vraiment insultant!


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## Itisi

I think the only solution is 'rubbish food'.  There will be plenty of opportunities elsewhere, it seems, to bring in the whole North African/couscous/racism thing...


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## JClaudeK

Itisi said:


> There will be plenty of opportunities elsewhere, it seems, to bring in the whole North African/couscous/racism thing...


Le type qui dit la fameuse phrase est un beauf prétentieux qui veut (avant tout) épater la galerie, le racisme n'est que marginal dans la scène.

cf.


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## JClaudeK

Suite:


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## ain'ttranslationfun?

There's a heckuva difference riots 14 years ago (thread starter) and cooking (starting with #18). I'd say  for the former, "Once a(n) xxx, always a(n) [xxx]." - not so much "what's bred in the bone will come out in the flesh ("la caque sent toujours le hareng") but "that's the way things have always been there [in that country] - and that's not going to change".


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