# 更 / 比較



## BODYholic

w84u said:


> Do you have smaller packets?
> 你有更小的袋子吗？/ 你有没有更小的袋子？



Strictly speaking this is incorrect.

We say *更*(*加*)大 but  *比较*小.
The word *更* is translated as extra, more, additional and the like.

Another common mistake made by, even, native speakers is the words 凹凸. While 凹进去 is correct, we tend to commit silly mistake like 凹出来.


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## w84u

BODYholic said:


> Strictly speaking this is incorrect.
> 
> We say *更*(*加*)大 but *比较*小.
> The word *更* is translated as extra, more, additional and the like.
> 
> Another common mistake made by, even, native speakers is the words 凹凸. While 凹进去 is correct, we tend to commit silly mistake like 凹出来.


 

Let's see what Mr Google says:

比较小的 *694,000*
更小的 *3,850,000* 


By the way, I've never heard anyone saying 凹出来.


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## Jerry Chan

w84u said:


> Let's see what Mr Google says:
> 
> By the way, I've never heard anyone saying 凹出来.



Isn't it 凹進去, 凸出來? I don't notice many Chinese make such a mistake either.

I think 比較小 is correct.
But 更小 sounds more like "even smaller".
e.g.
B 較 A 小; C 更小


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## Jerry Chan

Speaking of "更", I'm sure most of you know the song "明天會更好"?
There're actually debates on the use of "更" here.
The song meant to say we'll have a better tomorrow.
But the song name seems to imply "today's already good, but tomorrow will be even better"!

Think about it.


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## w84u

Jerry Chan said:


> Isn't it 凹進去, 凸出來? I don't notice many Chinese make such a mistake either.
> 
> I think 比較小 is correct.
> But 更小 sounds more like "even smaller".
> e.g.
> B 較 A 小; C 更小


 
Etymologically, you are right. But in modern Chinese, such a wall has long since been torn down. We simply use 更 as a comparative maker, e.g. 我想租一套更小的房子/我得想出一个更周密的方案/这样做更省事/他的理想更远大 etc. When we say all those things, we are not necessarily concerned about whether 更 means 'even further' or not. 更 can be used on any basis.

Admittedly, 比较小的 or 较小的 is an alternative way to form the comparative. But we don't have to use 比较小的 first, and then 更小的 after being shown an unsatisfied one.


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## Jerry Chan

That's why I raised the example of 明天會更好 and said there're debates going on.
Personally I do not accept this use. At least I won't teach my student this way.
我想租一套更小的房子
Sounds like "I want to rent an EVEN smaller house" to me.

Our language is evolving in a strange way.
In another thread, we're talking about using "比較" where there's actually no comparison.
I do not accept that either.


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## BODYholic

Jerry Chan said:


> That's why I raised the example of 明天會更好 and said there're debates going on.
> Personally I do not accept this use. At least I won't teach my student this way.
> 我想租一套更小的房子
> Sounds like "I want to rent an EVEN smaller house" to me.



We share the same sentiment but with a slightly different interpretation.
更 means  extra, more, additional or something augmenting positively.
Take your sentence for example, I would say something like "I want to rent a MORE smaller house". Well, native Chinese understand it, of course. But it just doesn't sound right.

And talking about Google, from my desktop, the result for the occurrence of 比较小的 seems to yield in my favor. (*189,000,000* if you want the number, i.e.) Having said that, I don't really see what these numbers proved.


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## vincentsh

kirsitn said:


> 用中文怎么说 Do you have smaller packets? (Context: Packets of fruit, candy or other food.)


 
”更“ 和“较” are very easy to be ignored their difference!

“更” means : adv. 表示程度上又深了一层 或者 数量上进一步减少或增加
“较” means: adv. 具有一定程度； 比较

for example:

我需要更小的口袋： means the package is a small now, but i want to a smaller package 
我需要较小的口袋： means i want to a smaller package than others . in fact the package is maybe large or not.


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## w84u

BODYholic said:


> We share the same sentiment but with a slightly different interpretation.
> 更 means extra, more, additional or something augmenting positively.
> Take your sentence for example, I would say something like "I want to rent a MORE smaller house". Well, native Chinese understand it, of course. But it just doesn't sound right.
> 
> And talking about Google, from my desktop, the result for the occurrence of 比较小的 seems to yield in my favor. (*189,000,000* if you want the number, i.e.) Having said that, I don't really see what these numbers proved.


 

That's not true, BODYholic. 更 can be used either positively or negatively. It is bidirectional.

Google always proves a lot if you use it the right way.   If you want to find an exact term, you should put it in double quotation marks, like this: "比较小的"，not 比较小的. Try it , you'll be surprised at the different results.


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## w84u

Jerry Chan said:


> That's why I raised the example of 明天會更好 and said there're debates going on.
> Personally I do not accept this use. At least I won't teach my student this way.
> 我想租一套更小的房子
> Sounds like "I want to rent an EVEN smaller house" to me.
> 
> Our language is evolving in a strange way.
> In another thread, we're talking about using "比較" where there's actually no comparison.
> I do not accept that either.


 
Even in English, 'smaller' is also used mainly on a small basis. If 'this' one is gigantic, you should say "do you have some small (not smaller) packets?" That's simply because the two things are not comparable with each other. In this situation, if you ask for a "smaller" one, you will probably be given another gigantic one, though it is smaller than the previous one.

When we say "Mary is more beautiful than Susan", it suggests Susan is beautiful herself. In this case, we usually do not say "Susan is uglier than Mary", but "Susan is not so beautiful than Mary" makes sense.


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## BODYholic

w84u said:


> That's not true, BODYholic. 更 can be used either positively or negatively. It is bidirectional.
> 
> Google always proves a lot if you use it the right way.   If you want to find an exact term, you should put it in double quotation marks, like this: "比较小的"，not 比较小的. Try it , you'll be surprised at the different results.



Your opinion is respected. 


For those who are interested in the definition of "更", you may take a look at these 2 online dictionaries. 

http://www.zdic.net/zd/zi/ZdicE6Zdic9BZdicB4.htm

http://www.nciku.com/search/cc/detail/%E6%9B%B4/4513

In all fairness, I also found the definition from a hard copy Chinese dictionary printed in Singapore that says, something almost identical to vincentsh's,
表示程度上又深了一层 或者 数量上进一步增加或*减少*。

In a personal capacity, I would not use 更小/更加小 or 更少/更加少.


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## Jerry Chan

w84u said:


> Even in English, 'smaller' is also used mainly on a small basis. If 'this' one is gigantic, you should say "do you have some small (not smaller) packets?" That's simply because the two things are not comparable with each other. In this situation, if you ask for a "smaller" one, you will probably be given another gigantic one, though it is smaller than the previous one.
> 
> When we say "Mary is more beautiful than Susan", it suggests Susan is beautiful herself. In this case, we usually do not say "Susan is uglier than Mary", but "Susan is not so beautiful than Mary" makes sense.



That's not true w84u.

"Mary is more beautiful than Susan" (Mary比Susan漂亮)
Chances are, Susan is really ugly!
We often use comparison to sound more tactful, or avoid being rude.
e.g.
I need a smaller house (because the existing one is too big for me)
Have you got a cheaper one? (this one is too expensive for me)
You deserve better (what you've got is not good enough)

What you're referring to is "Mary is EVEN more beautiful than Susan" (Mary比 Susan更漂亮)


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## w84u

Jerry Chan said:


> That's not true w84u.
> 
> "Mary is more beautiful than Susan" (Mary比Susan漂亮)
> Chances are, Susan is really ugly!
> We often use comparison to sound more tactful, or avoid being rude.
> e.g.
> I need a smaller house (because the existing one is too big for me)
> Have you got a cheaper one? (this one is too expensive for me)
> You deserve better (what you've got is not good enough)
> 
> What you're referring to is "Mary is EVEN more beautiful than Susan" (Mary比 Susan更漂亮)


 
I mean, when we use the comparative form, the two things to be compared must be comparable with each other. If someone says "the boy is younger than his grandfather," don't you feel it kinda ridiculous? When someone says "西施 is more beautiful than 无盐", don't you feel he is pulling your leg?

When I say 我需要一套更小的房子，why do you guys suppose that the current house must be a "small" one? How can we determine whether it is "small" or not? By what standard it looks "small"? 

With modern Chinese language, people are never beset with your dogma:

When his secretary behaves disappointingly, a boss says '我得找一位*更得力的*秘书'--according to your dogma, he must say 比较得力的 instead, for the present one is not so 得力. 

When a plan does not work satisfactorily, we say "我们需要一个*更周详的*计划"--according to your dogma, 更周详 is wrong，for the previous one is not 周详 enough.

On the practical basis, do you guys really believe such a dogma works? I deeply doubt it.


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## Jerry Chan

w84u said:


> I mean, when we use the comparative form, the two things to be compared must be comparable with each other. If someone says "the boy is younger than his grandfather," don't you feel it kinda ridiculous? When someone says "西施 is more beautiful than 无盐", don't you feel he is pulling your leg?
> 
> When I say 我需要一套更小的房子，why do you guys suppose that the current house must be a "small" one? How can we determine whether it is "small" or not? By what standard it looks "small"?
> 
> With modern Chinese language, people are never beset with your dogma:
> 
> When his secretary behaves disappointingly, a boss says '我得找一位*更得力的*秘书'--according to your dogma, he must say 比较得力的 instead, for the present one is not so 得力.
> 
> When a plan does not work satisfactorily, we say "我们需要一个*更周详的*计划"--according to your dogma, 更周详 is wrong，for the previous one is not 周详 enough.
> 
> On the practical basis, do you guys really believe such a dogma works? I deeply doubt it.



The house's determined "small" because of the very use of "更" (now we're back to square one!)
Now look at the original meaning of 更 again:
表示程度上又深了一层

If the house is not already small, how can it 又深了一层 (becomes even smaller)?

我得找一位較為得力的秘書
The secretary probably sucks. And I have to get a better one.

我得找一位更得力的秘書
According to our "dogma", or what the dictionaries suggest, yes the existing one is already quite competent, but somehow I need an even better one.

But as I've stressed above, there's a new trend of using "更" to mean "較", so you may interpret it both way in the second case. 

The explanation is there. No question about it.
It's a matter of whether you accept this new trend or not.


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## w84u

看来，多半是我的英语表达水平的原因，这样的讨论方式很点累。那我就用母语吧：

关于“更”这个字的辞典释义，就不必老提它了好吧，我自己也有足够的语言工具书。 我一再指出的是，我们谈“现代汉语的实用方面”（我前面已反复提到的mordern Chinese, practical usage，practical basis)。

关于“我要租一套更小的房子”，我想表达的是：这句话在现代汉语中并不是非要在“当前这套房子必须足够小”这个前提下才可以使用，或者说它本身并不一定暗示“我目前这套房子已经够小了”这层语义，因为这个“小”本身就需要一个标准来衡量，但实际上并没有这样的标准可依，说话人也不可能事先对这套房子进行过某种鉴定以确定它符合“小”的标准。——我的意思是，“更”这个字，现代汉语已趋于与“较”一样单纯地用于构成比较级。在这一功能方面，“较”和“更”二者并没有明确地按你们坚持的那种原则进行分工：“较”是纯粹表示相对比较、“更”是确立了方向或基调（大或小，美或丑，等等）之后的进一步比较。

关于“我得找一位更得力的秘书”这句话，完全可以在一个老板对当前秘书感觉不满意的时候使用。它本身并非一定要传达“虽然她已经很得力了，但我要找一位比她还要得力的秘书”这层语义。但你们非要要坚持它必须用于“现有的秘书已经足够得力”这个基础之上不可，因为字典上怎么怎么如何如何。同样地，当原有措施的实际效果不佳时，完全可以说“我们得制定更好的计划”。 

实际上，我们用“更”这个字表达比较意义时，很多时候就是因为对当前情况感到不满意（而不是因为已经符合要求了、但还想进一步精益求精）：

“当局得采取更有力的措施解决失业问题”，——实际上是暗示当前的措施并不那么有力。为什么这时一定得用“比较有力的措施”呢？

“胆子更大一点，思想更解放一点，步伐更快一点”，——这类政治用语，同样是基于现实的“胆子、思想、步伐”还不尽人意。

“更”这个字，语源上拥有的“在确定基调后的再进一步”这层语义，在现代汉语中还保留着，这也是事实。但不能因此就认定，把“更”跟“较”一样简单用作比较级确定为“非法”，因为语言之法（语法）不是“以法定语”，而是“以语定法”。字典释义，总是滞后于语言本身的发展。因为编一部字典，那是一项浩大的工程，劳师动众。一部权威的字典，使用寿命通常是数十年，甚至上百年。想想这几十年（二战后、尤其是70年代以后）语言本身的发展有多大吧，想想外来语（特别是英语）对现代汉语的影响有多大吧，想想我们现在所依据的字典是哪个年代出品的吧！


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## Jerry Chan

w84u said:


> 看来，多半是我的英语表达水平的原因，这样的讨论方式很点累。那我就用母语吧：
> 
> 关于“更”这个字的辞典释义，就不必老提它了好吧，我自己也有足够的语言工具书。 我一再指出的是，我们谈“现代汉语的实用方面”（我前面已反复提到的mordern Chinese, practical usage，practical basis)。
> 
> 关于“我要租一套更小的房子”，我想表达的是：这句话在现代汉语中并不是非要在“当前这套房子必须足够小”这个前提下才可以使用，或者说它本身并不一定暗示“我目前这套房子已经够小了”这层语义，因为这个“小”本身就需要一个标准来衡量，但实际上并没有这样的标准可依，说话人也不可能事先对这套房子进行过某种鉴定以确定它符合“小”的标准。——我的意思是，“更”这个字，现代汉语已趋于与“较”一样单纯地用于构成比较级。在这一功能方面，“较”和“更”二者并没有明确地按你们坚持的那种原则进行分工：“较”是纯粹表示相对比较、“更”是确立了方向或基调（大或小，美或丑，等等）之后的进一步比较。
> 
> 关于“我得找一位更得力的秘书”这句话，完全可以在一个老板对当前秘书感觉不满意的时候使用。它本身并非一定要传达“虽然她已经很得力了，但我要找一位比她还要得力的秘书”这层语义。但你们非要要坚持它必须用于“现有的秘书已经足够得力”这个基础之上不可，因为字典上怎么怎么如何如何。同样地，当原有措施的实际效果不佳时，完全可以说“我们得制定更好的计划”。
> 
> 实际上，我们用“更”这个字表达比较意义时，很多时候就是因为对当前情况感到不满意（而不是因为已经符合要求了、但还想进一步精益求精）：
> 
> “当局得采取更有力的措施解决失业问题”，——实际上是暗示当前的措施并不那么有力。为什么这时一定得用“比较有力的措施”呢？
> 
> “胆子更大一点，思想更解放一点，步伐更快一点”，——这类政治用语，同样是基于现实的“胆子、思想、步伐”还不尽人意。
> 
> “更”这个字，语源上拥有的“在确定基调后的再进一步”这层语义，在现代汉语中还保留着，这也是事实。但不能因此就认定，把“更”跟“较”一样简单用作比较级确定为“非法”，因为语言之法（语法）不是“以法定语”，而是“以语定法”。字典释义，总是滞后于语言本身的发展。因为编一部字典，那是一项浩大的工程，劳师动众。一部权威的字典，使用寿命通常是数十年，甚至上百年。想想这几十年（二战后、尤其是70年代以后）语言本身的发展有多大吧，想想外来语（特别是英语）对现代汉语的影响有多大吧，想想我们现在所依据的字典是哪个年代出品的吧！



I'm sticking to English for discussion because I have problem typing Chinese.

我得找一位 更/較 得力的秘書
我们需要一个 更/較 周详的计划

Using 更 can lead to 2 different interpretations. But I'm not concerned people will get confused because we normally interpret the 較 way.
These sentences are stating intentions rather than making comparisons.
We're getting a new secretary, a better proposal because, most likely, we're not satisfied with the existing ones.
Therefore it's true the use of 更 or 較 doesn't much difference. (though I believe 更 is not as accurate)

However, when we're making comparisons, it can really be problematic.
For example, you're a judge in a singing contest. Another judge turns to you and says: 3號比2號唱得更差
How will you interpret? 
I'll feel no. 2 is bad, but no. 3 is even worse. Probably both should be eliminated!
We should really be careful in choosing the right word to avoid misunderstanding, which could hurt the contestants!


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## w84u

Jerry Chan said:


> However, when we're making comparisons, it can really be problematic.
> For example, you're a judge in a singing contest. Another judge turns to you and says: 3號比2號唱得更差
> How will you interpret?
> I'll feel no. 2 is bad, but no. 3 is even worse. Probably both should be eliminated!
> We should really be careful in choosing the right word to avoid misunderstanding, which could hurt the contestants!


 
As I mentioned above, 更 still maintains this use, you can use it to emphasize the worse features on the basis of badness. But on the same basis, let's suppose, if one of the two singers must be selected to be the winner and one judge is asked to state his opinion, he might say something like this: 我个人认为，2号选手音质更佳、感情更丰富、表演更自然，所以我投2号的票. --all these 更s just convey a simple comparison, don't they?


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## Jerry Chan

w84u said:


> As I mentioned above, 更 still maintains this use, you can use it to emphasize the worse features on the basis of badness. But on the same basis, let's suppose, if one of the two singers must be selected to be the winner and one judge is asked to state his opinion, he might say something like this: 我个人认为，2号选手音质更佳、感情更丰富、表演更自然，所以我投2号的票. --all these 更s just convey a simple comparison, don't they?



I was going to put an end to the debate, but hey, your example inspired me and reinforced my belief!
And I've come to realize why 更 is taking the place of 較. 
It's with a good reason.

我个人认为，2号选手音质更佳、感情更丰富、表演更自然，所以我投2号的票. 
In your example 更 means not just 較. It has a deeper, subtler meaning.
Contrary to what your think, it's actually meant to say THE OTHER ONE IS GOOD, BUT NO. 2 IS* EVEN BETTER*.
The judge means to compliment both, though he may not like the other one.
He is being* POLITE*!

Using 較 obviously has no such meaning. It's actually tantamount to criticizing the other one (without actually praising no. 2) and sound a bit rude.

Now look at this example again:
Mary 比 Susan 漂亮
(You're offending Susan without really pleasing Mary)
Mary 比 Susan 更漂亮
(You're trying to please Mary without offending Susan)
It seems that the latter is a better choice if you don't want to get into trouble!

No wonder BODYholic says we normally use 更 in a positive way.
If you use it in a negative way, e.g. 3號比2號唱得更差, it may sound really really rude. Saying it publicly is usually frowned upon by our society.

We've been discussing the topic from an "accurate" perspective.
But language is not just about conveying accurate messages. It's more about good communications, socialization, maintaining relationships, making yourself look good...


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## Green6

BODYholic said:


> Strictly speaking this is incorrect.
> 
> We say *更*(*加*)大 but  *比较*小.
> The word *更* is translated as extra, more, additional and the like.
> 
> Another common mistake made by, even, native speakers is the words 凹凸. While 凹进去 is correct, we tend to commit silly mistake like 凹出来.




Honestly speaking, I have never noticed anyone says 凹出来

"你有没有更小的袋子" sounds perfectly fine to me when your intention is to have a smaller bag.

"你有没有比较小的袋子" to me, it means that you want a *small* bag, not a *smaller* one.


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## BODYholic

Green6 said:


> Honestly speaking, I have never noticed anyone says 凹出来


凹凸 is not a common word that we use daily and hence, it is not surprisingly that you have never heard people commits this mistake. Because of this lack of usage, it is normal that this flopper was done without second thought. So much so that native speakers, like you for example, may even not notice it.



Green6 said:


> "你有没有比较小的袋子" to me, it means that you want a *small* bag, not a *smaller* one.



a small bag = 小的袋子
比较小的袋子 = is a bag which is *comparatively smaller *(than the previous one which is established in the context proper).

Hope this clears your doubt.


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## w84u

hi, bodyholic, with the literal meaning, you are absolutely right. But what Green6 says is absolutely true as well: 

你有没有更小的袋子? simply means 'do you have any smaller pachets?' 
你有没有比较小的袋子? sounds more close to 'do you have any small packets?"

Although I don't know why and how they are nowadays used this way, that's the very truth and the very reality. Regretably, I don't know how to make you guys believe it.


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## w84u

Jerry Chan said:


> I was going to put an end to the debate, but hey, your example inspired me and reinforced my belief!
> And I've come to realize why 更 is taking the place of 較.
> It's with a good reason.
> 
> 我个人认为，2号选手音质更佳、感情更丰富、表演更自然，所以我投2号的票.
> In your example 更 means not just 較. It has a deeper, subtler meaning.
> Contrary to what your think, it's actually meant to say THE OTHER ONE IS GOOD, BUT NO. 2 IS* EVEN BETTER*.
> The judge means to compliment both, though he may not like the other one.
> He is being* POLITE*!
> 
> Using 較 obviously has no such meaning. It's actually tantamount to criticizing the other one (without actually praising no. 2) and sound a bit rude.
> 
> Now look at this example again:
> Mary 比 Susan 漂亮
> (You're offending Susan without really pleasing Mary)
> Mary 比 Susan 更漂亮
> (You're trying to please Mary without offending Susan)
> It seems that the latter is a better choice if you don't want to get into trouble!
> 
> No wonder BODYholic says we normally use 更 in a positive way.
> If you use it in a negative way, e.g. 3號比2號唱得更差, it may sound really really rude. Saying it publicly is usually frowned upon by our society.
> 
> We've been discussing the topic from an "accurate" perspective.
> But language is not just about conveying accurate messages. It's more about good communications, socialization, maintaining relationships, making yourself look good...


 
Hi, Jerry, I think you've made a great discovery. That's really convincible. Using 更 to make a simple comparison sounds much polite in some contexts. 

But I believe, it is certainly not the only reason. On other occasions, there is no need to consider politeness, as in the packet case we've talked about so far. Nowadays people trend to use 更 to make a comparison when the difference does not look so big.


----------



## BODYholic

w84u said:


> Although I don't know why and how they are nowadays used this way, that's the very truth and the very reality. Regretably, I don't know how to make you guys believe it.



Pardon me but I have to say that the very truth and reality that you mentioned, probably, only applicable to where you are.

Being a native Chinese, it is unfortunate that your believes have yet to spread to where I am. So while we may consider those as constructive contributions, it is hardly a widespread norm. Hence, if it is already a norm, there isn't a need for you to convince us in to believing. Isn't it?

On the other hand, I appreciate your concurrence on the literal meanings. On my hands, I do respect your point of views, although I have to underscore the fact that this is not practice here in Singapore. I can't say for the rest of the region, of course.


----------



## w84u

Of course what I said is only applicable to where I am:  China


----------



## vincentsh

w84u said:


> 看来，多半是我的英语表达水平的原因，这样的讨论方式很点累。那我就用母语吧：
> 
> 关于“更”这个字的辞典释义，就不必老提它了好吧，我自己也有足够的语言工具书。 我一再指出的是，我们谈“现代汉语的实用方面”（我前面已反复提到的mordern Chinese, practical usage，practical basis)。
> 
> 关于“我要租一套更小的房子”，我想表达的是：这句话在现代汉语中并不是非要在“当前这套房子必须足够小”这个前提下才可以使用，或者说它本身并不一定暗示“我目前这套房子已经够小了”这层语义，因为这个“小”本身就需要一个标准来衡量，但实际上并没有这样的标准可依，说话人也不可能事先对这套房子进行过某种鉴定以确定它符合“小”的标准。——我的意思是，“更”这个字，现代汉语已趋于与“较”一样单纯地用于构成比较级。在这一功能方面，“较”和“更”二者并没有明确地按你们坚持的那种原则进行分工：“较”是纯粹表示相对比较、“更”是确立了方向或基调（大或小，美或丑，等等）之后的进一步比较。
> 
> 关于“我得找一位更得力的秘书”这句话，完全可以在一个老板对当前秘书感觉不满意的时候使用。它本身并非一定要传达“虽然她已经很得力了，但我要找一位比她还要得力的秘书”这层语义。但你们非要要坚持它必须用于“现有的秘书已经足够得力”这个基础之上不可，因为字典上怎么怎么如何如何。同样地，当原有措施的实际效果不佳时，完全可以说“我们得制定更好的计划”。
> 
> 实际上，我们用“更”这个字表达比较意义时，很多时候就是因为对当前情况感到不满意（而不是因为已经符合要求了、但还想进一步精益求精）：
> 
> “当局得采取更有力的措施解决失业问题”，——实际上是暗示当前的措施并不那么有力。为什么这时一定得用“比较有力的措施”呢？
> 
> “胆子更大一点，思想更解放一点，步伐更快一点”，——这类政治用语，同样是基于现实的“胆子、思想、步伐”还不尽人意。
> 
> “更”这个字，语源上拥有的“在确定基调后的再进一步”这层语义，在现代汉语中还保留着，这也是事实。但不能因此就认定，把“更”跟“较”一样简单用作比较级确定为“非法”，因为语言之法（语法）不是“以法定语”，而是“以语定法”。字典释义，总是滞后于语言本身的发展。因为编一部字典，那是一项浩大的工程，劳师动众。一部权威的字典，使用寿命通常是数十年，甚至上百年。想想这几十年（二战后、尤其是70年代以后）语言本身的发展有多大吧，想想外来语（特别是英语）对现代汉语的影响有多大吧，想想我们现在所依据的字典是哪个年代出品的吧！


 
我同意你的观点. I agree with your appoint .
但是中国人的语言表达是比较含蓄的. 这个和其文化有密切的关系，不是说你会说中文或者了解中文语法就能掌握的。As for chinese , implicit expression is more poplar. It is close in relation with chinese culture"孔子思想". 
“含蓄” --- 基于对于一个人的尊重, 在不伤害人的感情的前提下的一种表达方式.
”Implicitness of expression“ is based on respect with each other, and do not hurt other's feelings.

因此..... so
-----当我说“我得找一位更得力的秘书”，完全可以在一个老板对当前秘书感觉不满意的时候使用。它本身并非一定要传达“虽然她已经很得力了，但我要找一位比她还要得力的秘书”这层语义。-----
是一种“含蓄”的表达不满意现在的秘书，需要换。 这里的理解没有错误！基于中国文化“含蓄”的影响，“更”的使用得到了很多人的支持！
This is an implicit expression that the secretary is not good enought to continue to work. If not , why he want to replace her or him?


语言是基于文化的一种体现！ 如果没有一定的对于中国的传统的理解，只是用语法来解释就会有歧义产生。
Language is  a culture. There will be have an various meaning, due to insufficient understanding of chinese culture.

就比如：“你吃了吗” 从语法上讲 是问你吃饭了吗
但是实际上就是 SAY HELLO
希望我能解决你们之间的争论。 呵呵


----------



## Jerry Chan

Let's have more examples:

建設更和諧的社會
(字面是現在社會已夠和諧, 實際是現在社會一般或不夠和諧)

建設較和諧的社會
(字面沒說現時不和諧, 實際是現在十分不和諧)

For use in a negative way, the results are different.
預料年底經濟會更差
(字面是現在經濟已很差, 實際也是)

預料年底經濟會較差
(字面上沒表明現在經濟情況, 實際上現時經濟一般或較好)

What do you think?


----------



## w84u

Jerry Chan said:


> Let's have more examples:
> 
> 建設更和諧的社會
> (字面是現在社會已夠和諧, 實際是現在社會一般或不夠和諧)
> 
> 建設較和諧的社會
> (字面沒說現時不和諧, 實際是現在十分不和諧)
> 
> For use in a negative way, the results are different.
> 預料年底經濟會更差
> (字面是現在經濟已很差, 實際也是)
> 
> 預料年底經濟會較差
> (字面上沒表明現在經濟情況, 實際上現時經濟一般或較好)
> 
> What do you think?


 
我一再说了，“更”表示“进一步”这个用法依然存在，你举这些例子是对的。但是我想指出的是，现代汉语已经超越了这一用法，可以（注意是“可以”，不是说“只能”）象“比较”“较”那样用来作“简单比较”了。而这一用法产生的原因，有一部分确实属于你所说的“出于礼貌”或“委婉”，但是，还有些场合实际上与“礼貌”与“委婉”无关，为什么要这么用，其原因一时难以说清，很可能是受英语的影响。尤其是英语中以more构成的比较语义时，现在好象都倾向于直接拿"更"去对应：
It is more likely...更可能..
He looks more like a girl 他看上去更象一个女孩
what is more... 更有甚者...
here are more examples: 这里有更多的例子：

又如这样一句话：

The situation is more complicated than I imagined.

当我们试图翻译它的时候，也偏爱拿“更”去对应这个more: 形势比我想象的更复杂——这里的“比”通常只用来对应那个than字，而“更”就象是对应那个more字。这种情况下用“更”字，感觉非常自然，它们已经不表示“进一步”的比较意思了。更多的例子如：

I think I am more qualified for the job than John. 我认为我比John更能胜任这项工作。
We need more time.我们需发更多的时间。

etc.


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## Green6

BODYholic said:


> 凹凸 is not a common word that we use daily and hence, it is not surprisingly that you have never heard people commits this mistake. Because of this lack of usage, it is normal that this flopper was done without second thought. So much so that native speakers, like you for example, may even not notice it.



I have to disagree with you because 凹 and 凸 are two very common words in modern Chinese language. There are quite a lot expressions in which 凹, 凸 or 凹凸 are used, for instance 凹陷，凹进去，凸出来，凹凸不平。




BODYholic said:


> a small bag = 小的袋子
> 比较小的袋子 = is a bag which is *comparatively smaller *(than the previous one which is established in the context proper).
> 
> Hope this clears your doubt.



If you translate that sentence word by word, you are absolutely right. However, in spoken Chinese, *比较* does not necessarily mean *comparatively*, it sometimes means something close to *quite*, and I believe there are other Chinese people share my point of view.

we say a lot things on a daily basis  like 

这道题目比较难，我已经想了10分钟还没有头绪

山路比较滑，要小心


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## Teach & Learn

_Geng_, usually used to compare with an *object* which might not be mentioned in the text but understood by context, expresses more of an affirmative or negative tone in a sentence regarding _bi jiao_, which tends to go *without* a specific object in a sentence, can be translated as "relatively" in English.

e.g. Zhe ben shu _geng _you yi si. --"This book is _more_ interesting." (The subject "shu" is indicated to compare with another "shu", which is omitted in this sentence as an object, because both the interlocutors know which book the speaker is comparing with.)

e.g. Zhe ben shu _bi jiao _you yi si. -- "This book is _(relatively_) interesting." (Here "relatively" can be omitted as the whole sentence is just a statement, without any comparison. On the other hand, we can understand it as "a comparison to the rest of books that the person has seen.")


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## BODYholic

Green6 said:


> I have to disagree with you because 凹 and 凸 are two very common words in modern Chinese language. There are quite a lot expressions in which 凹, 凸 or 凹凸 are used, for instance 凹陷，凹进去，凸出来，凹凸不平。


For a start, I think you have to learn to read more carefully.
I will just recap what I said earlier with some mark-up text to ease your reading. 


> 凹凸 is not a common word that we *use daily* ....





Green6 said:


> 这道题目比较难，我已经想了10分钟还没有头绪


 This sentence implies that the problem is comparatively difficult than those that he/she had ever encountered/attempted previously.



Green6 said:


> 山路比较滑，要小心


 因为柏油路比较好走。
Of course, mountain track is comparatively slippery than tarred roads. I thought that was obvious!?



Green6 said:


> it sometimes means something close to *quite*


No. That is a convenient mistake that even native speakers commit.

You patronized an eatery for the first time. You ordered a serving of fried rice. After the meal, you thought that the fried rice was *quite *nice and said this to the server ....

1. 这炒饭比较好吃。 OR   2.  这炒饭蛮好吃。

If you are a native Chinese, the choice is obvious.



Green6 said:


> I believe there are other Chinese people share my point of view.


I am not surprised that other Chinese people share the same mistakes too.

Hope this clears your doubts.


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## BODYholic

Teach & Learn said:


> e.g. Zhe ben shu _bi jiao _you yi si. -- "This book is _(relatively_) interesting." (Here "relatively" can be omitted as the whole sentence is just a statement, without any comparison. On the other hand, we can understand it as "a comparison to the rest of books that the person has seen.")



Bingo. My exact sentiment.

比较 is always used under the pretext of comparison. If the context is clear, the object of comparison is usually omitted.

Example,
Singapore is a tropical country which is usually hot. Recently and unexpectedly, we have frequent downpours since last Friday (or was it Saturday?). This morning I arrived at my office and told my colleague this ... "最近天气似乎比较冷。"

- The sentence taken at its face value has no object of comparison.
- So does 比较冷 = quite cold!?
- The answer is No.
- This sentence suggests that 前一阵子，天气还好。
- In English, "The weather now is comparatively colder than the recent past".

As a native Chinese, to express the idea of "quite cold" in this situation. I would say, " 哇！最近天气似乎还蛮冷的。"


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## w84u

Surely, we sometimes use 比较 to suggest a meaning close to "quite" . When we do so, we are comparing the thing we are talking about with the normal standard, or rather 'on an average basis'. If 柏油路比较好走 is taken as common sense or experience, there is nothing surprising that 山路比较滑 can simply have the similar meaning to 山路很滑. If the fried rice someone is eating tastes better than experience or expectation, it is quite normal for native Chinese speakers to say 这炒饭比较好吃. 

Maybe this usage, as you put it previously, has not "yet spread to" where you are. Maybe this usage is just a practice in mainland of China. I am not surprised that you can't get it, but I am really surprised that you are so persistent to reject things you've never experienced.


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## samanthalee

Moderator's Note: 
Let us conclude that the people in Singapore sometimes mix up 凹 and 凸, but native Chinese speakers elsewhere don't. And with that, let's stop the discussion on 凹凸, and concentrate on discussing 更 and 比較. 
Further posts in this thread that mention 凹凸 *will be deleted*.


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## BODYholic

Yes you have finally gotten the hang out of it.

You are also correct to say that it is common sense that traveling on tarred road is relatively easy than  moving up a hill. No rocket science degree is needed.

However, food preference is subjective. It is a different ball game to begin with. If you read my context in full. You are supposed to talk to a server. What does "比较好" meant to *him*? There is hardly a common reference that the server can relate to. 比谁好? 比哪里好? 比何时好? 

The first reply only makes logical sense if ...
1. You are talking to yourself. Or 
2. You are at an eatery that you frequent regularly so much so that the server may have know or recognize you.
These are examples (not exhaustive) of pretext for the first reply to work. Without these 前题, you are as good as speaking to thin air. 


Posted via mobile 


w84u said:


> Surely, we sometimes use 比较 to suggest a meaning close to "quite" . When we do so, we are comparing the thing we are talking about with the normal standard, or rather 'on an average basis'. If 柏油路比较好走 is taken as common sense or experience, there is nothing surprising that 山路比较滑 can simply have the similar meaning to 山路很滑. If the fried rice someone is eating tastes better than experience or expectation, it is quite normal for native Chinese speakers to say 这炒饭比较好吃.
> 
> Maybe this usage, as you put it previously, has not "yet spread to" where you are. Maybe this usage is just a practice in mainland of China. I am not surprised that you can't get it, but I am really surprised that you are so persistent to reject things you've never experienced.


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## Green6

BODYholic said:


> This sentence implies that the problem is comparatively difficult than those that he/she had ever encountered/attempted previously.
> 
> 因为柏油路比较好走。
> Of course, mountain track is comparatively slippery than tarred roads. I thought that was obvious!?



I am afraid that I have to disagree with you again,

“山路比较滑, 要小心” it means that "mountain track is *quite* slippery and you have to watch your steps." To me, it *does not *implyany comparative level or whatsoever. As a matter of fact, in modern spoken Chinese, if an object of comparison is not given, we interpret the word "比较" as some level between "有一点" and "相当".

My preference of word-choosing expressing the level from "mild" to "severe"

山路有一点滑
山路比较滑
山路相当（很）滑
山路非常滑
山路极滑




BODYholic said:


> This sentence implies that the problem is comparatively difficult than those that he/she had ever encountered/attempted previously.



If you insist that my previous statement "这道题目比较难……" means comparatively difficult, I would like to ask you a question, what kind of "difficult" is not comparative?

By following your logic, even if I had said "这道题很难", doesn't it imply that it is "comparatively" difficult (than those that he/she previously encountered?)




BODYholic said:


> No. That is a convenient mistake that even native speakers commit.
> 
> You patronized an eatery for the first time. You ordered a serving of fried rice. After the meal, you thought that the fried rice was *quite *nice and said this to the server ....
> 
> 1. 这炒饭比较好吃。 OR   2.  这炒饭蛮好吃。
> 
> If you are a native Chinese, the choice is obvious.
> 
> I am not surprised that other Chinese people share the same mistakes too.
> 
> Hope this clears your doubts.



As I have stated before, if an object of comparison is not given, the word "比较" and "蛮" are very similar. In this situation, I do not think there is a great difference beween the answer 1 and 2 because you only ordered the fried rice and there is nothing to compare with.

If I were the servant and my customer only ordered a single dish and afterwards said "这个菜比较好吃", I wouldn't doubt his level of Chinese expression.
.
.
.

A little summary
Maybe we can put the word mistake away for a second because the Chinese language is used by more than a billion people who live in each and every corner of our planet. It is sure that we share a lot things in common but it's evident that we also have some differences, in thise case, I would believe that Chinese people in Singapore, they don't mix "比较" with "蛮", However in mainland China, people sometime do.


----------



## Teach & Learn

_Man_ is "borrowed" from south China since the economy boom back in 90's as a colloquial adverb, but you will never see it in any academic or professional articles or journals in Standard Mandarin.


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## w84u

--朋友问：你昨天去吃饭的那家小餐馆，你觉得怎么样？

--你回答：炒饭的味道比较好，品种也比较全，卫生蛮好的，就是价格有点儿高，去那吃饭的人太多，要排很久的队。

以上那些红色的字，无论从语气和功能，都属'quite'一类。这类词语，它们都只是表达一种程度，一种语气，并没有特别明显的比较意味——如果说有的话，那所有这类字都有，那也是相对于“平均”水平或“通常”标准。而这个标准只是理论上存在，人们实际使用这些词语时，根本就没有去牵涉它。


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## w84u

所以：

a 你有没有更小的袋子——表示：想要一种稍小一点儿的袋子（相对于目前这个而言），仅是简单的比较，并不一定是表示“进一步”意义的比较。

b 你没有没比较小的袋子——可以是表示：你有没有小的袋子（通常意义上的“小袋子”，你甚至可以不必拿目前的袋子作为参考）


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## BODYholic

Green6 said:


> A little summary
> Maybe we can put the word mistake away for a second because the Chinese language is used by more than a billion people who live in each and every corner of our planet. It is sure that we share a lot things in common but it's evident that we also have some differences, in thise case, I would believe that Chinese people in Singapore, they don't mix "比较" with "蛮", However in mainland China, people sometime do.



1. Since we couldn't reconcile the differences, I don't see the need for us to dwell on this subject any further. To the very least, we would agree to disagree.

2. I would just like to rephrase (don't mix "比较" with "蛮") to (don't usually interpret "比较" as "quite"). As you may already know, there are also other easy and straightforward ways to say "quite" in Chinese, apart from using the word "蛮".

3. While I may not be able to represent the entire Singapore population, but having live here since I was born (less several years of my overseas stint), I must say that it is indeed rare for us to employ "比较" like the way people in your country do.


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## BODYholic

Teach & Learn said:


> _Man_ is "borrowed" from south China since the economy boom back in 90's as a colloquial adverb, but you will never see it in any academic or professional articles or journals in Standard Mandarin.


Yes, 蛮 does sound colloquial and informal to my ears. I didn't know that it originated from South China. Thanks for sharing.


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## BODYholic

w84u said:


> --朋友问：你昨天去吃饭的那家小餐馆，你觉得怎么样？
> 
> --你回答：
> 
> (1) 炒饭的味道比较好，
> (2) 品种也比较全，
> (3) 卫生蛮好的，就是价格有点儿高，去那吃饭的人太多，要排很久的队。



If you honestly want to hear from me, I hope it won't blow your top!

(1) 炒饭的味道比较好，
In Singapore, if you say this, it is taken that among all the dishes that you ordered yesterday, 炒饭 was a better one. For us, this is usually a polite way to say that the rest of the dishes were really sub-par.

(2) 品种也比较全，
Over here, we use 品种 mainly on live stock, especially dogs and cats. Perhaps for prawns and crabs too. In restaurant, we say, 菜式也比较全. This suggests that the restaurant we patronized yesterday has a greater variety of foods compared to other restaurants that we went last time.

(3) The rest are beyond the scope of this thread. You may start a new thread should you need to hear from me. I am more than willing to share with you.

说得白一点，
你回答：炒饭的味道比较好 (其它的就马马虎虎了)，菜式也比较全(比上次去的那一间要好的多了)。

Hope this clears your doubt.


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## BODYholic

w84u said:


> 所以：
> 
> b 你没有没比较小的袋子——可以是表示：你有没有小的袋子（通常意义上的“小袋子”，你甚至可以不必拿目前的袋子作为参考）



也所以：
以上的解释太模棱两可，含糊不清。


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## w84u

我明白了：你讨论的目的，并不是为了交流，并不是为了辩清真相，仅仅是为了赢得争论。


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## BODYholic

w84u said:


> 我明白了：你讨论的目的，并不是为了交流，并不是为了辩清真相，仅仅是为了赢得争论。


 Is this an accusation?

老实说，也重复了挺多次的说，我们这里的看法。你即有所问我当然必有所答。结果反而只是我不辩清真相，仅仅是为了赢得争论?你也太莫须有了吧！

欲加之罪，何患无词。


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## Jerry Chan

Hey guys, no need to get emotional.

We come here to gain knowledge, to have fun.
Language is so complicated and its use make differ from time to time, from place to place. There's no use arguing.

I've really learned things on this topic and thanks to you guys. Let's have a peaceful and constructive discussion.


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## samanthalee

Teach & Learn said:


> _Man_ is "borrowed" from south China since the economy boom back in 90's as a colloquial adverb, but you will never see it in any academic or professional articles or journals in Standard Mandarin.



Absolutely right. There's no agreement on how _mán_ should be written: in Singapore, we write it as 蛮； in Taiwan, they write it as 滿.

The corresponding Standard Mandarin for _mán_ is 挺 (i.e. 蛮不错 = 挺不错)


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## Green6

In mainland China I've noticed that few people, when speaking mandarin, would employ the word "man" (蛮). It sounds way too taiwanese for me. I believe that people tend to use "ting" (挺) instead. 

However, when it comes to local dialect, in my case the WU language (shanghai), we say a lot \ˈme\ which I believe is the shanghainese equivelant for "man"(蛮)


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