# Society



## ThomasK

I wonder: do/ can you translate the word 'society' in your language? 

In Dutch we do as we don't use anything like _soci_-: 

- _*maatschappij*_ is a literal translation (_socius_ being a companion) 
_*maat*_ is pal (friend), -_schap_ is a suffix creating the quality of being a pal, and the _-ij_ is another one (a collectiv suffix, I believe)

- _*samenleving*_ is lit. 'together-living' (not life)

In German you have a literal equivalent of societas as well 
 - _*Gesellschaft*_ (_Geselle_ companion, -_schaft_ N-quality-suffix, like in Dutch)

We do use _sociaal_ (social), in two meanings : 
 - personal quality: being helpful to others, a true companion as it were
 - referring to society, as in _social problems_


----------



## Orlin

Bulgarian, Russian: общество (общ/общий=common), Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian: društvo (drug=friend -> družiti, družba).


----------



## ThomasK

So in B/R your word is something like the *'community'*, Dutch _*gemeenschap*_. Interesting. 
However, in general we do not use this word because it implies some kind of emotional bond in Dutch, which is not the case in general. But then, Orlin, how about that distinction in B/R : do you use общество (obilestvo ???) for a monastic or other community as well ?


----------



## Orlin

ThomasK said:


> So in B/R your word is something like the *'community'*, Dutch _*gemeenschap*_. Interesting.
> However, in general we do not use this word because it implies some kind of emotional bond in Dutch, which is not the case in general. But then, Orlin, how about that distinction in B/R : do you use общество (obshtestvo  (BUL), obshshestvo (RUS) for a monastic or other community as well ? I think yes.


----------



## apmoy70

In Greek:
*«Κοινωνία»*
Cino'nia _f._, deriving from the ancient feminine noun «κοινωνία» (kœnō'niă)-->_communion, partnership_. Holy Communion is «Θεία Κοινωνία» ('θia Cino'nia, lit. "Divine Communion") in Greek. The noun functions as the root-word for dozens of derivations: 
*«Kοινωνός»* (cino'nos, _m., f._)-->_companion, partner_.
*«Κοινωνικοποιώ»* (cinonikopi'o, _verb_)-->_to socialise, communize_.
*«Κοινωνώ»* (cino'no, _verb_)-->_to have_ or _do in common with, have a share of_. The same verb is used when we partake of Holy Communion.
*«Κοινωνικός, -ή, ό»* (_adj._ cinoni'kos _m._, cinonici _f._, cinoni'ko _n._)-->_relating to partnerships, social_.
For a monastic or other community, the noun used is *«κοινότης»* (ancient, kœ'nŏtēs _f._; modern, ci'notis _f._) or colloquially *«κοινότητα»* (ci'notita _f._)-->_sharing in common, community_; e.g. «Μοναστική κοινότητα» (monastici ci'notita: _monastic community_), «τοπική κοινότητα» (topi'ci ci'notita: _local community_).
«*Ανακοινώνω» *(anaci'nono, _verb_)-->_to announce_; *«ανακοίνωση»* (ana'cinosi _f._) is the announcement.

[c] is a voiceless palatal plosive
[ʝ] is a voiced palatal fricative


----------



## sakvaka

*Finnish*: _yhteiskunta_

_yhteis-_ = together, co-
_kunta_ = This one has a long etymology. In language relatives, it signifies "family", "social company"... But in Finnish, it has meant an "administrative area" and later "system", "commune", "company". But today the only meaning is "municipality".  

So: probably "co-system".


----------



## jazyk

In Portuguese: sociedade.


----------



## hollabooiers

sakvaka said:


> *Finnish*: _yhteiskunta_
> 
> _yhteis-_ = together, co-
> _kunta_ = This one has a long etymology. In language relatives, it signifies "family", "social company"... But in Finnish, it has meant an "administrative area" and later "system", "commune", "company". But today the only meaning is "municipality".
> 
> So: probably "co-system".



*Estonian*: _ühiskond
_
As for the explanation, refer to the Finnish one above.  There's only one difference, the word _kond_ doesn't exist on its own in Estonian anymore, it can only be found as a part of other words. For example there's _maakond_ (an administrative unit, "county", same as the Finnish _maalaiskunta_), _võistkond_ ("team", _võistlema _being "to compete"), _teekond_ ("journey", _tee_ being "road" or "way") etc etc. But I imagine _kond_ alone originally meant something quite like the Finnish _kunta_.  ... I should probably check an etymological dictionary.


----------



## ThomasK

Then your words remind me of our _samenleving_ in Dutch. ONe question: can you also use it in the sense of a community ?


----------



## sakvaka

Not in Finnish, that would be _yhteisö_.


----------



## ThomasK

What is an _eisö_ then if I may ask?


----------



## sakvaka

_-ö_ signifies either the name of an action ("being-together") or a device ("in this, people gather to one"). It's difficult for me to say which interpretation is correct (if either...).


----------



## ilocas2

Czech - *společnost* from *společný* (common)


----------



## ThomasK

So when I compare with #2, the Slavic languages translate _society_ in three different ways, starting - I mean - from 3 different basic words... Am I right ? 

What is your word for _community_ then (like a monastic community) ? 

@Sakvaka: the main difference still is, so I think, that in society structures seem more important, whereas relations seem more important in communities.


----------



## hollabooiers

ThomasK said:


> Then your words remind me of our _samenleving_ in Dutch. ONe question: can you also use it in the sense of a community ?



Not in Estonian either, the word for community is _kogukond_. Yeap, another one of those -_kond_s.


----------



## sakvaka

What is _kogu_? Does it correspond anything Finnish? Thanks!


----------



## hollabooiers

_Kogu_ would usually mean "whole" or _koko_ in Finnish, as in "the whole world" would be _kogu maailm_ (_koko maailma_). In that word, however, I suspect it has more to do with _kogunema_ (intransitive) or _koguma _(transitive), "to gather". 

So _kogukond_ is something that's to do with some sort of gathering.. action, plus that infinitely useful -_kond_.


----------



## sakvaka

hollabooiers said:


> So _kogukond_ is something that's to do with some sort of gathering.. action, plus that infinitely useful -_kond_.



The verb is _koota_ in Finnish (the _k_ was lost in this form because of gradation). I think _kokokunta_ would come very close and give a Finn an impression of what your word is trying to say.

Tänan! ;-)


----------



## hollabooiers

sakvaka said:


> I think _kokokunta_ would come very close an give a Finn the impression of what your word is trying to say.
> 
> Tänan! ;-)



Yeah, except it doesn't exist, does it? ;D Though I do get what you meant. 

Ja aga palun!

Edit: Also, I have to wonder why our conversations always end in such spam. Sorry about that again.


----------



## hui

sakvaka said:


> _-ö_ signifies either the name of an action ("being-together") or a device ("in this, people gather to one"). It's difficult for me to say which interpretation is correct (if either...).



How about:
_-o/-ö_ signifies that the derived word is a collective noun (a group)


sakvaka said:


> The verb is _koota_ in Finnish (the _k_ was lost in this form because of gradation). I think _kokokunta_ would come very close and give a Finn an impression of what your word is trying to say.



Let's expand it to *koota yhteen*, and we end up with the Finnish words _yhteiskunta _(society) and_ yhdyskunta_ (community, colony)_._


----------



## sakvaka

Good observation!


----------



## Encolpius

*Hungarian*: _*társadalom*_ [társ = companion, fellow, mate, -(a)dalom = a very ancient suffix to form nouns]


----------



## ilocas2

ThomasK said:


> So when I compare with #2, the Slavic languages translate _society_ in three different ways, starting - I mean - from 3 different basic words... Am I right ?
> 
> What is your word for _community_ then (like a monastic community) ?



Community is *komunita* in Czech. Old word for community is *společenství (or společenstvo)* or *společnost* (same word like for society). In fact the word *společnost* means also _company_.

So the word  *společnost* means _society_ and _company_ and _community_
the word *společenství (or společenstvo)* means _community_ and is archaic
the word *komunita* means _community_

Monastic community could be *klášterní komunita*


----------



## ThomasK

Is *společenství *a general word in Slavic ?


----------



## ilocas2

Certainly not. Slavic languages are very different and such long and specialized word can't be common to all of them.


----------



## The Machine of Zhu

ilocas2 said:


> Community is *komunita* in Czech. Old word for community is *společenství (or společenstvo)* or *společnost* (same word like for society). In fact the word *společnost* means also _company_.
> 
> So the word  *společnost* means _society_ and _company_ and _community_
> the word *společenství (or společenstvo)* means _community_ and is archaic
> the word *komunita* means _community_
> 
> Monastic community could be *klášterní komunita*



Where does *družstvo *fit in here? Is it solely used for co-operatives and does it have a strong communist or socialist connotation? Or does it have another meaning too?


----------



## ThomasK

That is an interesting note. With us the term for a Communist colleague was 'kameraad' (comrade), but we do not make names of groups based on that word.



hui said:


> _yhteiskunta (society) and_
> _yhdyskunta (community, colony)._
> _yhteisö = community _
> 
> _yhteis-_ = together, co-
> _kunta_ = This one has a long etymology. In language relatives, it signifies "family", "social company"... But in Finnish, it has meant an "administrative area" and later "system", "commune", "company". But today the only meaning is "municipality". So: probably "co-system".
> 
> _koota yhteen_


 
I combined all kinds of Finnish words and got that list. But _koota_ is assembly, I noticed. Is the last word a pleonasm then? And what is the difference between an _yhdyskunta_ and an _yhteisö_ ?


----------



## bibax

Czech:

*společnost* = 1. society 2. company, corporation;

*společenství*  (not archaic at all !!) = community, commonwealth;

- _Společentví_ nezávislých států (_Содружество_ Независимых Государств) = Commonwealth of Independent States;
- _společenství_ vlastníků bytových jednotek (a legal term) = condominium of flats' owners;

*spolek* = guild, league; (e.g. hist. Hansa and Trojspolek = the Central Powers/Drei-Kaiser-Bund);

All words are derived from the adverb *spolu* (= together), which is originally a fossilised prepositional expression "s polu" = from a half (půl = a half, gen. polu). Hence the noun *spolek* = originally a thing owned fifty-fifty (halb und halb); -> adj. společný (= common; originally "owned fifty-fifty") -> noun společnost;



> Where does družstvo fit in here? Is it solely used for co-operatives and does it have a strong communist or socialist connotation?


*družstvo* (< druh = fellow) = co-operative; (the cooperatives have a long history in our country and still exist); BTW comrade/Genosse is *soudruh* in Czech (co-fellow);

Finally:
*obecenstvo* (< obecný = common, general; cf. Rus./Bulg. общество/общий) = public, audience;


----------



## hui

ThomasK said:


> I combined all kinds of Finnish words and got that list. But _koota_ is assembly, I noticed. Is the last word a pleonasm then? And what is the difference between an _yhdyskunta_ and an _yhteisö_ ?



_koota = _to collect, assemble
_koota yhteen= _to collect (in) together

_Yhteisö _is a community of people, or union of legal entities.
_Yhdyskunta _is a community of people, or a group of (burrowing) animals, or a colony of insects.


sakvaka said:


> *Finnish*:
> _kunta_ = This one has a long etymology. In language relatives, it signifies "family", "social company"... But in Finnish, it has meant an "administrative area" and later "system", "commune", "company". But today the only meaning is "municipality".



But when _-kunta_ is the last part of a compound word, it means some kind of group:
_- johtokunta_ = board of directors
- _ihmiskunta_ = humankind
- _palokunta _= fire brigade
- _venekunta_ = (small)boat crew
- _aurinkokunta_ = solar system
etc.


----------



## bibax

ThomasK said:


> Is *společenství *a general word in Slavic ?





ilocas2 said:


> Certainly not. Slavic languages are very different and such long and specialized word can't be common to all of them.



It is a common word at least for West Slavic.

Polish:
*społeczeństwo, społeczność* = society;
also *towarzystwo* means society;

In Czech *tovaryšstvo* is a historical term, e.g. Tovaryšstvo Ježíšovo (= Societas Iesu); *tovaryš* means _journeyman_;


----------



## ThomasK

But then: a journeyman? Someone who accompanies you on your trip/ journey, a companion ?


----------



## Encolpius

My dictionary gives a different origin. Journey in the Middle Ages meant "day's work", diurnum Lat. day. So named because the journeyman was no longer bound by indentures but was *paid by the day*.


----------



## Rallino

In* Turkish*: 

If you look at the dictionary (I just did), for _society_, it will give:

Topluluk, toplum, halk, şirket, kurum, dernek.

Topluluk = group, community, ensemble, society
Toplum = public, people, society
Halk = folk, nation, society
Şirket = company, society
Kurum = association, society
Dernek = guild, society


There is a false-friend: *sosyete*, from the French word: _société_.

_Sosyete _is a reference to high society, or even people who show off with their elitist way of living.


----------



## bibax

In the medieval craft guild system there were masters, journeymen and apprentices. Diurnum/journey is indeed a day salary.

Tovaryš and tovar are old Slavic loanwords from Turkic tavar (wealth, trade) and ishchi (one who works).

In Old Czech tovařiš meant fellow-in-work.

I think the Hungarian word társ (= fellow) is of the same origin, perhaps via Slavic.


----------



## ThomasK

Two notes :

(1) The _tovařiš_ issue:
I never thought this *'journeyman'* was an existing word. The interesting thing is that it is just the same as the German *'Geselle'*, with the same medieval meaning, I am sure. So _towarzystwo_ and _Gesellschaft_ are perfect equivalents. 
Yet, our Dutch _*maten*, _pals, are not _gezellen,_ journeymen or companions; this parallellism does not hold.

(2) Turkish variants: 
I suppose there is some kind of mix-up here, though interesting. I had associated 'society' with the social fabric, the build-up of a social structure, with its organisation and categories (like the feudal society, Communist society, democratical society, etc.). Would that be _*topluluk*_ in Turkish? 

I think the other words refer to groups rather, don' they? I must admit I had not thought of *society as an association*, which is another meaning of the English word 'society' indeed. Could you combine some of the other five words in kind of compounds to show us how they 'function' ? (Thanks !)

_Good Lord, languages are that complex !_


----------



## bibax

German has also: *Genosse* = fellow (and comrade in the former GDR);

die *Genossenschaft* = cooperative (družstvo is a perfect equivalent in Czech);


----------



## ThomasK

Yes, I should have known. Thanks! But that was/ is before 1989, wasn't it?  _(Just by the way: a _Trabant _used to be some kind of Genosse, before it became a car, so I learnt)_


----------



## The Machine of Zhu

bibax said:


> Czech:
> 
> *společnost* = 1. society 2. company, corporation;
> [...]



Díky! Very interesting. I'm glad to see *společnost *is indeed related to* spolu. 
*
I'm aware that 'družstva' still exist in the Czech Republic. Perhaps it's my teacher who failed to explain it properly, but in my opinion, it's a notoriously difficult term to translate because, as far as I know, we don't have an equivalent concept in Dutch. So, if I'm not mistaken they existed before communism?


----------



## ThomasK

Well, we have the word 'troetel-', which refers back to this friend, if that is what you mean. And of course,when we refer to the Middle Ages,  we had our _gilden_, but we did not call them 'gezelschappen' (companions).


----------



## bibax

The Machine of Zhu said:


> I'm aware that 'družstva' still exist in the Czech Republic. Perhaps it's my teacher who failed to explain it properly, but in my opinion, it's a notoriously difficult term to translate because, as far as I know, we don't have an equivalent concept in Dutch. So, if I'm not mistaken they existed before communism?


IMHO the cradle of the modern coöperative movement was England or Wales (Robert Owen, ...) in 19th century. The coöperatives existed in Austria-Hungaria as well.

Now the commonest type of the coöperatives in Bohemia is the so-called "housing coöperative" (bytové družstvo).


ThomasK said:


> And of course,when we refer to the Middle Ages, we had our gilden, but we did not call them 'gezelschappen' (companions).


So we've got this little dictionary (English/German/Dutch/Czech):

craft guild / Zunft, Zeche / gilde / cech (< Ger. Zeche)
journeyman / Geselle (hence Gesellschaft) / ? / tovaryš (hence obsolete Czech tovaryšstvo and Modern Polish towarzystwo)


----------



## ThomasK

I have completed your list: 

craft guild / Zunft, Zeche / gilde / compagnonnage/ cech (< Ger. Zeche)
journeyman / Geselle (hence Gesellschaft) / *gezel / compagnon/* tovaryš (hence obsolete Czech _tovaryšstvo_ and Modern Polish_ towarzystwo)_

However, in most cases those words are not really common anymore, i believe, except for _Gesellschaft_, but not in that meaning!


----------



## mataripis

Tagalog: Pamayanan           *    Pilipino: Sosyedad


----------



## ThomasK

After a brief exchange with PM, I got this information: the word P comes f 'mamamayan' meaning Citizen. The next questions will be what the _mamama... _might refer to etymologically, but he'll be back, he told me.

Edit: Something I thought of: this _tru/drut_-stem turns up in Dutch in _vertroetelen_, spoiling, let's say, but in the best sense: giving someone extra comfort, pampering him/her wiht food, with affection, etc., as one does with friends.


----------



## A.O.T.

Ukrainian: *суспільство *(suspil'stvo)


----------



## ThomasK

But is a suspil (?) a citizen, or a friend, companion?


----------



## A.O.T.

We don't have such a word in Ukrainian. We've got only an adjective *суспільний *(suspil'nyi) = social, public; common;sociable.
A citizen = *громадянин *(gromodyanyn), a friend/companion = друг/товариш,супутник (drug/tovarysh,suputnyk).


----------



## ThomasK

Could the word have some kind of stem meaning something else (like 'open', or 'colleague', 'mate', ...) ?


----------



## AutumnOwl

_*Swedish:*_ 
_samhälle_ - _sam_ = together, _hälle_= ? (my guess is perhaps from hålla = keep). It means both _society, community_ but also _village_, a collection of houses larger than a _by_ but without town privieges.


----------



## ThomasK

'Sam': like together, _samen _in Dutch? I would be interested to hear about hälle though. We know 'hall' in Dutch, borrowed from English, but I suppose a semantic link is improbable, or isn't it?


----------



## AutumnOwl

According to Svensk etymologisk ordbok, http://runeberg.org/svetym/ , page 691, the Swedish word _sam-_ comes from the Germanic _sama(n)- _and the same is probably true for the Dutch _samen_.

As for _-hälle,_ according to the same soucre as above, page 256, is related to _hålla = keep_, so the word _samhälle_ means _(to) keep together_; _hålla samman_ is Swedish for _keep together_, that's probably why I I felt that _-hälle _had to do with the word _keep_.


----------



## ThomasK

Great information, thanks. It reminds me of our samenleving, a new word meaning 'living together'...


----------



## AutumnOwl

That would be _sammanboende_ in Swedish, a couple who lives together are in a _samboförhållande_, they are _sambo_.


----------



## mataripis

ThomasK said:


> After a brief exchange with PM, I got this information: the word P comes f 'mamamayan' meaning Citizen. The next questions will be what the _mamama... _might refer to etymologically, but he'll be back, he told me.


  It is the word for Citizen  , _*Mamamayan *_*with root word "Yan" the repition of" ma" means that people are residing in particular place,  *Society= Pamayanan, Town= bayan


----------



## ThomasK

Thanks, M! But what is "yan"' and "ma" precisely then? (I am sorry, I'd really like to understand better)


----------



## mataripis

"Yan" in English is "There"  and "Ma" is common prefix/suffix in Tagalog that add/change status of word. e.g. Tagalog could be the name of language or people who belong to the speaker of Language ,but if you want to change this word that will give the meaning"Tagalog speaker" you may use " Ma" and "Na" producing the word " Mananagalog", if we say "Speak in Tagalog" this has simple translation = Managalog ka (singular)  or Managalog kita/tayo (plural)[ let's speak in Tagalog]. but the common expression in Pilipino is "magsalita tayo ng Tagalog".


----------



## bibax

> Ukrainian: суспільство (suspil'stvo)





> Could the word have some kind of stem meaning something else (like 'open', or 'colleague', 'mate', ...) ?



Decomposition: su-*spiľ*-stvo

It is related to Czech *spol*ečnost, *spol*ečenství.

*spiľ-, spol-* from *spolu* (= together), originally *s polu* (= from a half);


----------



## kaverison

Tamil
Samuukam, samuthaayam


----------



## ThomasK

<could you tell us more about the origin of the word(s)? Is this a compound, consisting of for example _samuu+kam, samu+thaayam_?


----------



## momai

Arabic:
mujtama3 from the verb ijtama3a to meat ,to get together


----------



## 810senior

Japanese:
社会sha-kai, a term translated from English society. (both sha and kai mean a crowed, a group)


----------



## ThomasK

But then: how about _community_, 810Sr? I think I can guess why the word was translated from English: this kind of political/ administrative thinking was uncommon... But then what could the word have been for referring for the larger community transcending villages and towns? I suppose we shall arrive at some kind of _duchies_, _counties_, etc....


----------



## kaverison

ThomasK said:


> <could you tell us more about the origin of the word(s)? Is this a compound, consisting of for example _samuu+kam, samu+thaayam_?



@ThomasK, I think the root in both is Sanskrit "sam" (pronounced as sum in English), though in Sanskrit it is samajA, samiti etc. I think the prefix means getting together or gathering. sankamam in Sanskrit is the confluence of 2 rivers.

I think, Tamil words are using the Sanskrit root Sam with Tamil suffixes though I still need to try to understand the suffixes. I will post back.

I googled and found an equivalent Tamil word is  kumukaayam - don't know if this is modern translation. But there is kudumbam - family, kuzhu - group, kuudu - gather > kuuttam - crowd in Tamil.

I will post back with more research soon.


----------



## 810senior

ThomasK said:


> But then: how about _community_, 810Sr? I think I can guess why the word was translated from English: this kind of political/ administrative thinking was uncommon... But then what could the word have been for referring for the larger community transcending villages and towns? I suppose we shall arrive at some kind of _duchies_, _counties_, etc....



Sorry, I have no clue about that at all.
I as well don't know if there was a term in Japanese with regards to community before the modern translation was coined out.


----------



## kaverison

@ThomasK, @810senior. I am sure there was a word for such things in ancient languages. May be lost or changed in meaning. Groups, families is common to all cultures. Villages, communities  and societies developed out of such groups. We have words for those. Medieval Tamil kingdoms, Choozhaas (or choolaas) had administration that would rival later British administration that followed. So, i don't think that is it.

I think, the biggest problem wirh words from the past would be the connations or some shame that they may carry, thus excluded from usage - in our case any caste related terms are often avoided in standardized language usage.

In Tamil, Uuraar (uu like ooze) refers to some one of same village, thus of same clan. (Uur - village, place). Saathi sanam is used by villagers to refer to their clan/community : saathi - roughly, caste and sanam people. Both of these are used to refer to society colloquially : as in society will talk - uur pesum. (Uur represents people in it; we call it aaku peyar aaku becomes, peyar - name, noun).

Sure, this may not represent modern usage of society, as in theosophical society or society of doctors, but the concept was there.

I am sure, you can probably dig up something like this in Japanese.

And yes,  seems there was connection between Japanese and Tamil. Buddhism was one factor!


----------



## AutumnOwl

ThomasK said:


> But then what could the word have been for referring for the larger community transcending villages and towns? I suppose we shall arrive at some kind of _duchies_, _counties_, etc....


In Swedish there have been different words for larger communities, for example _socken_, a part of a county that is gathered around a church. An older word was _härad or hundrade_ (English hundred), and in some parts _treding_ (English Riding), when an area was divided into three parts.


----------



## Gavril

Welsh _*cymdeithas*_ means both ”society” and ”companionship”. It is a shortening of earlier _cydymdeithas, _which is formed from _cyd_- "union, combination", + the prefix _ym_- ("around") + -_deith, _which may be the same word as _taith_ “journey”. Thus, _cymdeithas_ would have originally meant “travelling together” or similar.

Armenian has two common words for “society”: *հասարակութիւն *(_hasarakutiun_), from հասարակ “common, ordinary”; and *ընկերութիւն* (_ənkerutiun_), from ընկեր“companion”;  հասարակութիւն can also be translated as “community”, whereas ընկերութիւն may (based on the examples I've seen) refer more to “society” in the sense of a voluntary organization of people (as in, ”He formed a birdwatching society with some of his friends”)


----------



## apmoy70

^A not-for-profit volunteer organisation/society in Greek is *«εταιρ(ε)ία»* [eteˈɾi.a] (both spellings are common, fem. noun) < Classical fem. noun *«ἑταιρεία» hĕtaireíā* (fem.) or *«ἑταιρία» hĕtairíā* (fem.), Ionic *«ἑταιρηΐη» hĕtairēíē* (fem.) --> _comradeship, friendship, political society_ (PIE *se- _reflexive pronoun_ cf Proto-Slavic *sětъ, _guest_; Lith. svēčias, _guest_).
Please allow me, even after five years to add some etymology to my previous post:
MoGr *«κοινωνία»* [cinoˈni.a] (fem.) --> _society_, *«κοινότητα»* [ciˈnotita] (fem.) --> _community_ < Classical adj. *κοινός, -νὴ, -νόν» koinós* (masc.), *koinḕ* (fem.), *koinón* (neut.) --> _common, public, usual, impartial, (neut.) the community, common good, public, leading authority, league_ (PIE *kom- _with_ cf Lat. prep. cum, Lat. prefix com-).


----------



## irinet

Hi,
We have 'societate', 'comunitate' and 'tovarăş' which I see it is Slavic.


----------



## ThomasK

@kaverison: I think I understand. You are quite right that the content of those terms may have changed. Not so sure about the connotations though. As far as I can see, the biggest changes have to do with the denotation or the use: the historical reality (or administrative, ...) changed and as a consequence the reality "behind" the word sometimes changed along, or the word came to refer to a different part of reality, or another reality.

@the latest contributors: I am very grateful to all of you for introducing this broader dimension. I am just wondering about what terms we might have in Dutch to refer to such. The only thing I can think of now is samenleving but that is a fairly recent term. I think duchies and counties (_hertogdommen _and _graafschappen_) were the realities we knew, besides villages, towns, hamlets, etc.

@irinet: what is that _tovaras_ ?


----------



## irinet

bibax said:


> It is a common word at least for West Slavic.
> 
> Polish:
> *społeczeństwo,*
> also *towarzystwo* means society;
> 
> In Czech *tovaryšstvo* is a historical term, e.g. Tovaryšstvo Ježíšovo (= Societas Iesu); *tovaryš* means _journeyman_;



'Tovarăş' (=companion) means now a 'journey/play partner'. It was extensively used as an appelative for 'mister' during the Communist times.


----------



## ThomasK

Interesting...So like _Kamerad/comrade_ in other countries, I guess?


----------



## kaverison

ThomasK said:


> @kaverison: I think I understand. You are quite right that the content of those terms may have changed. Not so sure about the connotations though. As far as I can see, the biggest changes have to do with the denotation or the use: the historical reality (or administrative, ...) changed and as a consequence the reality "behind" the word sometimes changed along, or the word came to refer to a different part of reality, or another reality.



@ThomasK, thank you for the reply. I totally agree. I am constantly finding words or expressions in this forum that I have to bend over backwards to express in Tamil. Social ideas and concepts vary and some western concepts are very hard to translate. Let me explain: For e.g, In Tamil we use vaNakkam (greetings) to greet someone (typically, to elders); we used this irrespective of time of day. With the advent of English practices in India, we had to start saying different greetings depending on the time of day, like Good Morning, Good Evening etc. Modern Tamil coined these as direct translations of English words - kaalai vaNakkam (Morning Greetings) etc. I often see these translations in Tamil expression books for Foreigners, but we Tamils continue to say *vaNakkam (வணக்கம்) *to each other (actually, more Tamils say Good Morning instead, nowadays)! In some other contexts, we can't even do that. That's the struggle.

The word Society is not one of them. There is an old book of poems in Tamil called *Thirukkural *in Tamil (supposedly 2000 years old), written by Thiruvalluvar. The book contains 1330 couplets each with 7 words that explained the concepts of those times very well. People are still coming up with a variety of explanations for those couplets. The advice mentioned in this for a king is still valid, better yet, can easily be rewritten as project management ideas! Some of the words he used in his book, either died down, changed in meaning and worse yet, couldn't be used anymore. Let me explain: 

There is a word *kudi(குடி) *used heavily in *thirukkural *to mean society also has another meaning - "to drink" (v) - probably through another root. This latter meaning took precedence in modern Tamil and it even degenerated to mean a drunkard in practical language. Thus the hesitation or refrain to use the word. Another Tamil word *naatram *used to mean fragrance in Thirukkural days, now simply means foul smell!! We use vaasanai now for fragrance.  Even English has these, I think. The word "retard" may be perfectly valid in a Physics class, but, doesn't it become offensive when a student uses that against another? This is the type of connotations I meant.

Again, please don't get me wrong. I am so happy to have found this forum. It definitely helps me understand more about my own language, both strengths and shortcomings of it. I want to learn from all other language posts here, particularly how they cope up with the onslaught of modern concepts and still sustain their originality. Look forward many more meaningful conversations. Sorry for the long post and thanks for giving me an opportunity to explain.


----------



## ThomasK

I understand now, it is an excellent explanation of what you meant, and it provides some historical perspective, etc. Great, thanks.

I was just thinking: the drinking might have been a social event, sharing the same drink. Swedish knows _lagom_ (spelling of vowel is not quite correct), meaning 'just enough, not too much', and I once heard that it referred to sharing a cup/ horn of mead, thereby making sure that the last one had his share as well. This is "social drinking", I'd say, and there is nothing pejorative at all. But now I quite understand your reference to connotations. The word comrade/ tovarias might work just like that: it has been loaded with connotations - and it is important for a language learner to be aware of that...

_(By the way: at YouTube.com there is a film, entitled 'Kudi', but I cannot guess what it is about precisely. Marriage issue?)

EXTRA: if anyone were able to tell me in linguistic terms what problem we are dealing here, I'd be quite grateful. I could imagine like a shift of meaning, denotation/ connotation, or are we talking about concepts changing??? I suppose this is a semantic issue, or can/ should we be more specific? This has to do with etymology of course, but it is more than that... 
Or can you suggest similar topics where one can have the same problem/...? I think of 'companion', 'comrade' (as opposed to. 'friend', which is, I think, fairly universal). I think I'll take this question to the EHL section. _


----------



## Messquito

In Chinese:
社會
社(people that gather; a group)
會(meet)


----------



## ThomasK

Just one question: can you translate that also as "community" or "town", or does it strictly refer to "society"?


----------



## kaverison

ThomasK said:


> I understand now, it is an excellent explanation of what you meant, and it provides some historical perspective, etc. Great, thanks.
> 
> I was just thinking: the drinking might have been a social event, sharing the same drink. Swedish knows _lagom_ (spelling of vowel is not quite correct), meaning 'just enough, not too much', and I once heard that it referred to sharing a cup/ horn of mead, thereby making sure that the last one had his share as well. This is "social drinking", I'd say, and there is nothing pejorative at all. But now I quite understand your reference to connotations. The word comrade/ tovarias might work just like that: it has been loaded with connotations - and it is important for a language learner to be aware of that...



I must admit, I slightly exaggerated: The old *kudi *still continues its life in modern words like kudi aatchi - people's rule (democracy), kudi urimai - citizenship (literally right to be citizen), kudi peyarthal/kudi pukuthal - emigrate/immigrate, in educated Tamil (sort of reviving the other old meaning - you can see it in signs at the airport or in books, but not in common language usage even among educated Tamils);
and in spoken language, you can see that meaning in kuditthanam - residence. kuditthanam (actually pronounced kudutthanam, colloquially) also refers to setting up a family, as in thani kuditthanam - couple setting up a separate household away from their parents (In India, we used to live in Joint families) . But, like I said, the word kudi itself refers more commonly to drinking and on the street, he is (come) drunk (kudichittu vandirukkaan), getting wasted (oree kudi - only drinking) or the drunkard [kudi (kaaran)]. You can imagine the jokes and puns played on all the words in this context!

You are right, there is a social situation behind words or expressions, that make them heavy, sometimes. Interestingly, social drinking was probably not unheard of in Thirukkural days - you read tons of poems from those times referring to fine wine and good meat, though Thirukkural itself denounced both, being a book of moral code. Drinking was denounced because too many poor people's lives were destroyed by it - a rickshaw puller who made few hundred rupees a day would drink it all away and be wasted on the streets, while his wife and family would struggle. Such drinking was denounced time and time again and created a stigma about drinking itself - there was even prohibition for a long time (not any more).

I found one YouTube video where it shows the guys getting wasted after a night full of drinking, I don't know if you are referring to that. If you can share the link, I will definitely take a look.

Once again, thank you for being a great conversationalist. You bring out more interesting questions/topics in various languages. Do you know any Tamil or have some interest in it?


----------



## ThomasK

Thanks for the compliment. I am just curious and amazed at what kind of other considerations turn up while exploring translations and meanings. I do not know any Tamil, but I am mainly interested in links that languages distinguish or create (depending on your view of language) between words and concepts, realities. And I did notice once that Malagasian, which might belong to your language group, consists of a lot of metaphorical words. That semantic aspect in its most general meaning is one of my foci nowadays, and also universalisms...

As for the video: yes, that's the one.


----------



## kaverison

Thanks, @ThomasK! Tamil belongs to Dravidian family. If at all, they have found connections to Finnish (for being agglutemate), Sumerian (of late, people are trying to establish connections), Japanese and Korean for grammar and word formation. I never heard of the connection to malagasian. I will explore. Thanks. But, the language does indeed contain a lot of metaphorical words and expressions.

Early men must have all communicated the same way, with hands, then sounds and finally words. In that sense, the early words must have formed the same way (even if they don't sound the same). But, as societies formed in isolation, they probably formed newer concepts as appropriate to local environment. For e.g in Tamil there a ton of words about the basic elements water, fire etc but almost none about ice or snow. We now use the word for dew drop (panithuli) for ice and snow now! I would imagine the opposite in Eskimo's languages!

I found 2 videos - one with the title "KUDI(L)" and another "KUDI", both short films in Tamil on Youtube. In the former, a man gets addicted to drinking and blows away money, steals, borrows to keep it going. In this scene, he is being questioned by police for beating up his wife and children because his wife refused to let him take away the money wife borrowed for their daughter's surgery. The news of wife and daughter dying comes at the end and the movie finishes, with him crying.

The latter, "kudi" is also about the same theme as well - friends get together and drink to the hilt - one of the guys' mom calls while they were at it and he lies saying he is at a wedding reception or something (poor audio) and everyone become accomplices to it. Next morning, they all wake up except the one that lied, his mom keeps calling, he seems dead, they all panic, finally he comes to and everyone is relieved, ends with the caption, "too much drinking causes cardiovascular (failure?)".

This is the theme of many a films telling the evils of drinking. [[the caption, "kudi kudiyai kedukkum, incidentally uses both the meanings of kudi, drinking destroys life - I think the latter kudi refers to kudutthanam - household, here life.]].

(As an aside, while searching for "kudi" in youtube, I saw a lot of reference to Punjabi (an indo-european language) kudi. I hear, it means girl!
And a word about a lot of these short films: they are by aspiring bollywood film students (there is a film institute). They get kudos for trying, but not the content!!).

I really enjoyed the stimulating conversation on this. I will now put the "kudi" topic to rest for now before others get bored with it. I will meet you on another word discussion soon.

*வாழ்க! 
(vaazhga! - *Tamil greetings to mean live well).


----------



## Panceltic

Slovene:

*družba* - _družiti (se)_ to be together. Means "company" in business sense, and also in friendly sense. _Dobra družba_ good company (friends), _moja družba_ the people I hang out with
*združba* - _združiti (se)_ to combine, to become one. Implies an informal, not organized community
*društvo *- also comes from the _drug-_ root. Used for any hobby-related community, a club. _Planinsko društvo_ mountaneering club
*občestvo* - _obči_ common, cognate with общество. Mainly used in religious sense
*skupnost* - _skupaj_ together. Used for many different kinds of communities. _Krajevna skupnost_ is something like parish council in English
*komuna* - from Latin. Has the meaning 'rehab' in modern language


----------



## aruniyan

kaverison said:


> ........



Kaverison, nice reading your post, just wish to point out about the words you  brought forward kudi and kudumbam that refers to house and family respectively,

here the root for ku is gaining inside/within, so kudil refers to hut, house etc...kudai is shade/shadow, kukai is cave etc.. we can now get the idea. Its collecting something inside.


ThomasK,

The word society should have the root "join along with", related to Sanskrit *saha*(  associate, along with, brother, companion, relationship).


----------



## irinet

bibax said:


> In the medieval craft guild system there were masters, journeymen and apprentices. Diurnum/journey is indeed a day salary.
> 
> Tovaryš and tovar are old Slavic loanwords from Turkic tavar (wealth, trade) and ishchi (one who works).
> 
> In Old Czech tovařiš meant fellow-in-work.
> 
> I think the Hungarian word társ (= fellow) is of the same origin, perhaps via Slavic.



Very interesting!

1. We used to have tovarăş as a _journeyman, _too. 2. But the word changed its meaning in the communist era dramatically, and became overused. All communists used it when _addressing to _someone whether male or female. In contrast, the formal d_omn/doamnă was rejected _in favour of this communist word.

3. Now, the word faded away almost completely. I can hear it now and then and seems to have got a strong informal connotation. As I have noticed,  poor educated people use it nowadays, and the word means 'a _kind of friend_'.


----------

