# 知道不？



## Youngfun

In another forum, people say that the structure "知道不" is wrong grammatically, and it's not acceptable in Standard Mandarin. They say it's "dialect".

What do you guys think?


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## tarlou

If this is used as a question, like "你知道不？", or special structures like "别担心，他知道不了" then it's quite standard to me.

If this is used as "don't know" in a sentence, I'd feel it not standard. I knew in some places people use "知不道" instead of "不知道" but I've never heard of "知道不" yet


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## Youngfun

Sorry, forgot to specify. I was referring to the structure used as a question as “知道不？”
Many people in a forum consider it wrong or non-standard. (though 2 of them are not native and one is a 华侨)


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## Lucia_zwl

Hi~ I don't know if it's standard or accepted in the dictionaries, but I do say like this:
这什么意思，（你）知道不？
他俩要结婚了，知道不？
…
Not sure, but this saying could be regional.


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## Skatinginbc

Youngfun said:


> Many people in a forum consider it wrong or non-standard. (though 2 of them are not native and one is a 华侨)


Are they from Taiwan?  If so, that would make sense.  “知道不？” would be considered "non-standard" in Taiwan.


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## Youngfun

Yes, and some saying that "they have never heard it". Also, one says that this structure is correct in Minnan, but not in Mandarin.


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## Skatinginbc

Youngfun said:


> one says that this structure is correct in Minnan.


That person probably had the 知道沒 structure in mind.  知道不 doesn't seem to exist in Taiwan Minnan, either.  In Taiwan Mandarin, "知道否" is the "right" one.  否 = not so (e.g., 否則 = if not so then).  你知道不知道 = 你知道否, where 否 = not (不) + so (referring to 知道).


Youngfun said:


> some saying that "they have never heard it".


I've never heard of the 知道不 structure until I read this thread and was quite shocked to know that it is "standard" in 普通话.


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## Jerry Chan

I wouldn't say 知道不 is a 'standard' Mandarin, but I do hear this phrase quite often now, mostly from mainland's tv programs.

It can't come from Hokkien (Minnan). 
In Hokkien, '不' is rarely used.
We would say:
知毋? or 知影毋?


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## SuperXW

I'm from northern China and I heard people say 知道不 quite often too. When a northern person says this, its tone doesn't sound like a slang borrowed from the South. Maybe northern dialects also support this saying.
You can also hear:
去不？
出门不？
回家不？
看电视不？
打球不？
……
I think the idea is quite like "...or not?" in English.

Maybe it's not 100% standard, not formal, but it's colloquial and widely acceptable.


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## Ghabi

Youngfun said:


> In another forum, people say that the structure "知道不" is wrong grammatically, and it's not acceptable in Standard Mandarin. They say it's "dialect".


Hi! The question word 嗎 in Modern Chinese is often supposed to come from 無 (or other similar negating words), so perhaps the usage has come a full circle: now instead of 嗎 we use the negating word 不 to end a question.

The usage is very natural to my Cantonese ear, as we do something similar in Cantonese for a tag question:

以後不要再這樣了,知道不?=以後唔好再係咁喇,知冇陰上聲?=Don't you ever do that again, understand?

However, for a real question we can't do that:

他們要結婚了,你知道不?=佢哋要結婚喇,你知唔知呀?=They're to get married, you know that?



tarlou said:


> I knew in some places people use "知不道" instead of "不知道" but I've never heard of "知道不" yet


Erm, 知不道 is often written as 知不到, and is perhaps another story.


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## Skatinginbc

Ghabi said:


> 知冇陰上聲?


冇 corresponds to 無/沒, doesn't it?  Is it a structure similar to 知道沒 (Or Minnan 知毋) rather than 知道不?


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## Ghabi

^Hi! The Cantonese equivalent of 沒有 is 冇陽上聲, while 冇陰上聲 is only used in some fixed expressions (I can only think of a few at the moment):

知冇陰上聲?=知道不/知道沒有/知道嗎?
明冇陰上聲?=明白不/明白沒有/明白嗎?
好冇陰上聲?=好不/好不好/好嗎? (but this one may be simply a contraction of 好唔好: hou2m4hou2-->hou2mou2)

So while one can say 去不? in Mandarin (at least in Mainland Mandarin), we can't say *去冇陰上聲? in Cantonese (only 去唔去呀 works here).


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## Skatinginbc

Ghabi said:


> 知冇陰上聲? 明冇陰上聲?


Isn't mou2 in these two cases an allophone of mou5, resulting from the undergoing merger of 2nd and  5th tones in HongKong Cantonese  (Bauer, R., Cheung, K.-H., and Cheung, P.-M. 2003. Variation and merger  of the rising tones in Hong Kong Cantonese. Language Variation and  Change 15:211-225)?  


Ghabi said:


> 好冇陰上聲?


Mou2 in this case is a result of syllable blending (m4hou2 唔好 ==> mou2) and therefore not relevant to the 知道不 structure.


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## Ghabi

Erm, in any case the Cantonese usage doesn't parallel the Mandarin one. I wonder if the Mandarin usage is new at all. I can't help thinking of the well-know sentence (which was taught to us when we were kids) that can be read in two ways: 下雨天留客天留我不留

Host: 下雨天留客 ，天留我不留！
Guest: 下雨天，留客天，留我不？留！

The anecdote seems to be rather old, and the use of 不 to end a question is supposedly also old? Or the "guest" interpretation doesn't make sense to some speakers?


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## Skatinginbc

Ghabi said:


> 下雨天，留客天，留我不？留！


Good example, Ghabi .  I personally think 不 in a tag question is a variant of 否.  I just discovered (hehe, shame on me.  I should have known better) that the use of 不 at the end of a question is recognized by 中華民國教育部國語辭典, which includes the following definition for 不: "用於句末，表示疑問的語氣。如：「醫生，請問他的身體狀況好不？」".  Youngfun can tell those Taiwanese posters that claimed 知道不 "ungrammatical" to check their dictionaries .


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## Jerry Chan

「不」和「否」置於句末，作疑問語氣，在「傳統中文」是頗常用的吧
如李白詩句：寄言向江水，汝意憶儂不？
陶淵明：未知從今去，當復如此不？
「否」字例子就更多。

我相信在白話文興起以後，以上用法被「嗎」字取代了，漸漸成了'ungrammatical'
因此這用法可能只是「復古」而已，並非受方言影響
當然個別方言也頗古雅，例如粵語的「今朝」、「舊時」都是古語，現在恐怕都被視為不正宗了


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## Youngfun

Thanks everyone! I see that the issue is solved, thanks Skatinginbc for your #15! 
It seems that in Mainland this form is indeed widespread in Mandarin from North to South.
Also, thanks Ghabi and Jerry Chan for your interesting posts about ancient language! 

关于古语，现今的吴语（包括上海话和温州话等）仍然说“明朝”，但是意思是“明天”，非“明天早上”。
还有，我怀疑吴语的“伐？”是不是“不”的变音。在我的方言里，“不”（很多人写成“弗”）读 /fʉ/, 而“伐？”读/fo/。
另外，上海话一般都说“晓得*吧啦*？”/bə lə/，然后讲普通话时很多人就喜欢说成“知道*不*？”。


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