# It is I/me who determine/s how they treat me.



## Thomas Tompion

<<This thread has been split from  monotony: repetition of the same phrase
which includes the sentence
*and always remember that it is you who determines how they should treat you''   *>>


I'd go for the first of Dimcl's options.  I mention this because I want also to point out that it should be: you who *determine*.  Funny how that mistake survived all the other changes: I suppose the third person force of the impersonal *it is* stopped it being obvious.


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## Dimcl

This is interesting to me, Thomas, and I wonder if you'd help clear up my misunderstanding of the "determine" issue.  I'm not sure why you're saying that it's "determine" rather than "determines".


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## Thomas Tompion

I determine, you determine, he determines, etc.
I who determine, you who determine, he who determines, etc.

Nothing more complicated than that.  The English present tense has an s added in the third person singular, nowhere else.  You are the subject of the sentence, so  we say *you who are the subject of the sentence*, not *you who is the subject of the sentence*.

That's why I was wondering where the strong third person singular force, which seems to be affecting people, must be coming from.


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## panjandrum

It determines.
I determine, you determine, it determines.

It is X who determines ...

The subject of the sentence is not X, is it?

It is I/me who determine/s how they treat me.

Could this be possible?
It is I who determine how they treat me.
... or should it be ...
It is me who determines how they treat me.
... or some alternative.
I've given up.


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## Dimcl

Thomas Tompion said:


> I determine, you determine, he determines, etc.
> I who determine, you who determine, he who determines, etc.
> 
> Nothing more complicated than that. The English present tense has an s added in the third person singular, nowhere else. You are the subject of the sentence, so we say *you who are the subject of the sentence*, not *you who is the subject of the sentence*.
> 
> That's why I was wondering where the strong third person singular force, which seems to be affecting people, must be coming from.


 

So, are you saying that this is consistent in this sentence structure no matter what the word is? Is it correct if I say:

"and always remember that it is you who decide how they should treat you"
OR
"and always remember that it is you who envision how they should treat you"

If I said "and always remember that you determine..." (without the "it is"), then I would agree that the subject is "you" and the correct form is determine. Isn't the subject of the sentence "it" and not "you"?


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## Thomas Tompion

Dimcl said:


> So, are you saying that this is consistent in this sentence structure no matter what the word is? Is it correct if I say:
> 
> "and always remember that it is you who decide how they should treat you"
> OR
> "and always remember that it is you who envision how they should treat you"
> 
> If I said "and always remember that you determine..." (without the "it is"), then I would agree that the subject is "you" and the correct form is determine. Isn't the subject of the sentence "it" and not "you"?


 


Yes, exactly.  You couldn't say *it is you who is required*...: it's got to be *it is you who are required*....

*Always remember it is you who determine*...   The relative *who *refers to *you* and is the subject of the verb in the relative clause, and therefore determines its person and number.  *Always remember it is you who determines* is just as wrong as I determine, you determines, he determines..

It is strange how strong a third person force that *it is* gives to the sentence.


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## Thomas Tompion

panjandrum said:


> It determines.
> I determine, you determine, it determines.
> 
> It is X who determines ...
> 
> The subject of the sentence is not X, is it?
> 
> It is I/me who determine/s how they treat me.
> 
> Could this be possible?
> It is I who determine how they treat me.
> ... or should it be ...
> It is me who determines how they treat me.
> ... or some alternative.
> I've given up.


 
You mustn't give up, Panj.  It's an interesting point:

If you say *it's me*, then you must say *it's me who determines*.

If you say *it's I*, then you must say *it's I who determine*.

I prefer *it's I who determine*.


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## LV4-26

1. Should we add more confusion by adding (as Panj did) an extra issue into the pot, namely the "nominative vs objective case" controversy?
Maybe we can't avoid it.





Thomas Tompion said:


> You mustn't give up, Panj.  It's an interesting point:
> 
> If you say *it's me*, then you must say *it's me who determines*.
> 
> If you say *it's I*, then you must say *it's I who determine*.


2. I agree but the question remains as to why it is so. I think it's a problem of unmatching registers rather than one of pure syntax. After all, both _I_ and _me_ are 1st person pronoun, aren't they? Therefore, shifting from one to the other shouldn't change anything to the verb form.

3. Let's see how we feel when we use "_be_" instead of "_determine_"
(1) It's me who is tired
(2) It's I who is tired
(3) It's me who am tired
(4) It is I who am tired.

If we agree to follow Thomas Tompion's opinion about the original sentence and accept all the consequences, then (4) would be the best option. While I might agree about "it is I who determine", I'm not sure I like "it is I who am tired" that much. It *is *correct indeed, but how does it sound, really? (note: I chose to change  _it's_ to _it is, _to match with the apparent formality of the sentence_)_.

As previously suggested, (3) doesn't work because it mixes two different registers.

4.
Like Panjandrum, I really find it hard to decide and might be tempted to "give up".
Only, as using "it is NP who" seems to create problems (as it often does), I'd be inclined to choose a different wording and say:

and remember, *you're the one* who determines how they should treat you.


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## Thomas Tompion

Hi LV4,

  Don't your (2) and (3) sound wrong to you?  I couldn't say them.  I've heard, often, and could just say (1) - probably in the form 'It's me who's tired'.  I prefer to say 'it's I' than 'it's me', so it's not surprising that (4) is my favoured option.  I know it sounds a bit biblical to some people - remember those disciples saying 'Lord, is it I?'

You make a good point about both I and me being first-person pronounds.  I had, probably wrongly, assumed that the accusative case pushed me into the third person.  It seems to be what my ears are telling me.


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## LV4-26

Thomas Tompion said:


> Don't your (2) and (3) sound wrong to you? [...] .


Yes, they do. 

I did suggest that (3) feels wrong...


> As previously suggested, (3) doesn't work because it mixes two different registers.


.
...but I forgot to comment on (2). And yes, I agree it doesn't sound right either.


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## Forero

I think _who_ as subject in a relative clause takes on the person and number of what it modifies:

_You who know what is going on are in the best position to take responsibility._ [not "you who knows"]

The person and number is notional rather than formal:

_Our Father Who art in heaven ... _[addressing our heavenly Father]_
Our Father Who is in heaven ..._ [saying something about Him]

The _who_ clause normally modifies what immediately precedes, which is not always the subject:

_ It is you who are hurting yourself when you do things like that. 
It is you who is hurting yourself when you do things like that. 
It is you who is hurting himself when .... 
_
But a sentence of the form "It is ... that ..." is a cleft sentence, and can be thought of as a device for bringing an element of the sentence forward:

_It is in doing this that we find happiness.
_= We find happiness in doing this.

By this "=" sign, I mean the sentence has the same basic meaning though the emphasis is different.

Cleft sentences often resemble other things, but they can have different rules.  One is that the relative/interrogative word normally becomes _that_:

_How we find happiness is in doing this.
It is in doing this how we find happiness. _
_It is in doing this that we find happiness. _

When the relative/interrogative word is _who_, an interesting thing happens:_

Who should take responsibility is you who really know.
_ _It is you who really know that should take responsibility._ [cleft sentence]
_It is you who really know who should take responsibility._ [ambiguous alternative]

_Who is responsible is you who really know.
_ _It is you who really know that is responsible._ [cleft sentence]
_It is you who really know who are responsible._ [alternative, unambiguous because of the second _are_]

_Who really knows who's responsible is you.
__ It is you that really knows who's responsible._ [cleft sentence]
_It is you who really know who's responsible._ [alternative, unambiguous because of the _'s_]

_Who determines how they should treat you is you._
_It is you that determines how they should treat you._ [cleft sentence]
_It is you who determine how they should treat you._ [alternative, unambiguous in the context of the original sentence]


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## NevenaT

@Forero
I know this is an old thread, but this question about who has/have popped in my mind today, and it's really puzzling.
Let's look at it this way:
It is I who am responsible.
Analysis: dummy 'it' functioning as the subject of the sentence. The predicate of the sentence is a nominal one because we use a copulative verb 'to be'. Hence we have to use 'I' instead of 'me' (which is ever so common in colloquial speech). Then this predicate consists of a predicative nominal, which is the clause 'I who am responsible'. We further analyse the pr. nominal.
'I' is rhe subject of the clause, I'm not sure about the function of the relative pronoun 'who', I'm not even sure it's a pronoun in this case, I'll check. And then what naturally follows is again a verb phrase, yet another nominal predicate and it is unequivocally possible to use only am.
Am I the only one who's analysed it this way?


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## NevenaT

I think that in this example we're dealing with 2 instances of colloquial vs. standard speech. I and me, and am and is. The former ones should be correct according to grammar I suppose.


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## Forero

NevenaT said:


> I think that in this example we're dealing with 2 instances of colloquial vs. standard speech. I and me, and am and is. The former ones should be correct according to grammar I suppose.


Cleft sentences are a special case. For example, consider the following:

_Why I left is because you asked me to.
The reason I left is because you asked me to.
The fact that you asked me to is why I left.
The fact that you asked me to is the reason I left.
The reason I left is that you asked me to.
It is because you asked me to that I left._

Each of these uses the same "copulative verb" _is_ to equate the reason for which I left with the fact that you asked me to.

In each case except the last, the "I left" part is on the opposite side of the "is" from the "you asked me to" part.

The last sentence in this set is a cleft sentence. The clauses are rearranged, but the sense of the sentence is the same. So, even though the "I left" part is after the predicate, it is not really part of the predicate but a defining clause for the "dummy" _it_.

And just as this "It is ... that I left" means "The reason I left is ...", "It is you that determines how they should treat you" means "The person that determines how they should treat you is you."

The predicate in my example is not "is because you asked me to that I left", but just "is because you asked me to", and the predicate in "It is you that determines how they should treat you" is not "is you that determines ..." but  "is you" only.

If the relative clause were part of the predicate, it would begin "who determine", to agree with "you". But since it isn't, it doesn't.

The "who determine" version, however, is not wrong. It is ambiguous because of confusion about what is being modified, and as a cleft sentence it is less natural than the "that determines" version as well as being illogical, but it is idiomatic.

By the way, the pronoun "I" is awkward in stressed position, since it consists of a vowel by itself. Even in formal speech, most English speakers usually say "It is me", not "It is I", because the pronoun in the predicate is in stressed position and is not a subject. (The same thing happens obligatorily in French, where the predicate pronoun is in "disjunctive", i.e. stressed, form, not subjective form and in fact the subject pronoun is little more than a consonant by itself and would be difficult/unnatural to stress.)

In Old English, "Hit æm ic" (= "It am I") was the norm, but now the predicate pronoun has lost its claim to subjecthood and the verb has become third person _is_. In Modern English, we have a choice to use a stressed pronoun ("me", like "moi" in French) or to use the subject pronoun "I" despite the awkwardness and despite the verb's being "is" instead of "am". Further confusion comes from the fact that some native speakers use "I" as a stressed form (e.g. "between you and I", "not right for Sarah and I to be alone together").


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## Jimbob_Disco

Definitely ‘I’.

Lots of English people get this wrong, but a general rule is:
_The sentence must make sense with all extraneous data extrapolation._
For example:


You and I went to the cinema 
Me and you went to the cinema


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## NevenaT

So what I've gathered is that both versions are possible, but the one with ''determines'' is actually the logical solution because the verb actually corresponds to the subject "it'' when it comes to cleft sentences. However, it could also be a matter of different analyses in linguistics! Take a look at this Wikipedia article on cleft sentences: Cleft sentence - Wikipedia (look under *structural issues*).
And what's even worse is that it seems everyone is avoiding the usage of examples with present tenses, verb to be and personal pronouns in singular, there's not one example either on the Cambridge Dictionary website or anywhere else (trustworthy) to be found. Cleft sentences ( It was in June we got married .) - English Grammar Today - Cambridge Dictionary

"Between you and I" is this now colloquial? I thought the objective pronoun is to be used in prepositional phrases? This is now completely opposite from what speakers are doing with "It is I". 
I get what you're trying to say about the disjunctive form in French ("C'est moi", not "C'est je"). In my native language it's used as a personal pronoun when in the same construction.

@Jimbob_Disco We've learnt only BrE at school, and now I find it confusing because I don't know if it's the matter of varieties or some other issue. However, I'd also always definitely opt for "It is I", although it's very common to hear "it's me".


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## Jimbob_Disco

NevenaT said:


> So what I've understood is that both versions are possible, but the one with ''determines'' is actually the logical solution because the verb actually corresponds to the subject "it'' when it comes to cleft sentences. However, it could also be a matter of different analyses in linguistics! Take a look at this wikipedia article on cleft sentences: Cleft sentence - Wikipedia (look under *structural issues*).
> And what's even worse is that it seems everyone is avoiding the usage of examples with present tenses, verb to be and personal pronouns in singular, there's not one example either on the Cambridge Dictionary website or anywhere else (trustworthy) to be found. Cleft sentences ( It was in June we got married .) - English Grammar Today - Cambridge Dictionary
> 
> I get what you're trying to say about the disjunctive form in French ("C'est moi" not "C'est je"). In my native language it's used as a personal pronoun when in the same construction.
> 
> @Jimbob_Disco We've learnt only BrE at school, and now I find it confusing because I don't know if it's the matter of varieties or some other issue. However, I'd also always definitely opt for "It is I", although it's very common to hear "it's me".


I’m a BE speaker, and, trust me, my rule is foolproof!


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## Loob

Jimbob_Disco said:


> I’m a BE speaker


So am I.


Jimbob_Disco said:


> ... trust me, my rule is foolproof!


Oh no it isn't.

_*Formal*: It is I who am responsible.
*Informal*: It's me that's responsible._


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## NevenaT

Well I guess nowadays it's more and more widely used, and one day it really will become a norm, but I don't think it's so yet. I need to ask some well-versed linguist about this, it's mind-boggling. And it's also true that there're different analyses in different branches of linguistics, so everything is possible.
I just find it easier to stick to one variety then to use a bit of both, I think it's wiser that way, but under no circumstances do I think BE is in anyway superior to AE or vice versa.


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## NevenaT

I guess this explains your point (if you're not lazy to go through it) https://www.ling.uni-potsdam.de/~zimmermann/teaching/clefts/1-Syntax.pdf.
If it's indeed as you and this study say, then the cleft construction (who determines how they should treat me) corresponds to it.
*It* is me *who determines who they should treat me.
The one who determines how they should treat me *is* me.*

There's even an example as mine (with responsible), but they used "It is me...", this is getting more and more confusing.* *


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## Forero

Jimbob_Disco said:


> Definitely ‘I’.
> 
> Lots of English people get this wrong, but a general rule is:
> _The sentence must make sense with all extraneous data extrapolation._
> For example:
> 
> 
> You and I went to the cinema
> Me and you went to the cinema


_You and I am here. _

The actual subject of course is not "I"/"me" but the compound "You and I/me", which is plural. Within such a compound the pronouns are stressed, and "me" is more natural in stressed position for most English speakers although we learn in school that it "should" be "I". This is the reason "lots of English people get this wrong" and speakers of other languages don't have the same cause for hesitation. In French for example, as I have said, the strict rule is never to use the subject form of the pronoun in such a stressed position and native speakers get it right. In German, on the other hand, subject pronouns are the only choice in compound subjects, the equivalent of "It am I" is the norm, and native speakers get that right.

We "get this wrong" because there is a conflict within the English language itself, a conflict that has been around ever since the verb in "It is I/me" became "is" instead of "am", sometime between the days when French speakers ruled England and the days when "rules" were taught in "grammar schools" to prepare students to learn Latin.





NevenaT said:


> So what I've gathered is that both versions are possible, but the one with ''determines'' is actually the logical solution because the verb actually corresponds to the subject "it'' when it comes to cleft sentences. However, it could also be a matter of different analyses in linguistics! Take a look at this Wikipedia article on cleft sentences: Cleft sentence - Wikipedia (look under *structural issues*).
> And what's even worse is that it seems everyone is avoiding the usage of examples with present tenses, verb to be and personal pronouns in singular, there's not one example either on the Cambridge Dictionary website or anywhere else (trustworthy) to be found. Cleft sentences ( It was in June we got married .) - English Grammar Today - Cambridge Dictionary


Here is a pair of examples that has come up before in this forum:

_What are most crucial is clear explanations.
It is clear explanations that are most crucial_.

Notice the use here of "is" and "are", and compare these cleft sentences with this conversation:

_What things are most crucial?
I have no idea. I just don't know what things are most crucial.
It is clear explanations. Clear explanations is the answer._

Notice that "what things are most crucial" looks plural but isn't and is referred to as "it" in the next sentence.

Yes, clear explanations are the things that are most crucial, but "I just don't know what things are most crucial" does not mean "I just don't know clear explanations." It means "I just don't know the answer to the question "What things are most crucial?".

If "what things are most crucial" referred to the things themselves, the clear explanations, it would be plural, but since it actually refers to the answer to the question, it is singular.

For the same reason, "what are most crucial" and "it" (modified by "that are most crucial") in the cleft sentences are singular.

Still, native speakers might also say "What are most crucial are clear explanations", which is confusing the answer with the things themselves.





> "Between you and I" is this now colloquial? I thought the objective pronoun is to be used in prepositional phrases? This is now completely opposite from what speakers are doing with "It is I".


Right. This is commonly considered to be overcorrection. The theory is that someone grows up hearing "You and me" as both subject and object (with "me" as a disjunctive form) but learns in school that they "should" say, for example, "You and I are here". They then internalize "I" as a "preferred" disjunctive pronoun and start saying things like "between you and I".

Unfortunately there are whole communities where everybody says things like "between you and I" and thus it has become their version of "natural", not personal misunderstanding.





> I get what you're trying to say about the disjunctive form in French ("C'est moi", not "C'est je"). In my native language it's used as a personal pronoun when in the same construction.
> 
> @Jimbob_Disco We've learnt only BrE at school, and now I find it confusing because I don't know if it's the matter of varieties or some other issue. However, I'd also always definitely opt for "It is I", although it's very common to hear "it's me".


This is not a matter of BrE vs. AmE, nor is it completely a matter of formal vs. colloquial. It is a centuries-old conflict in the English language itself.





NevenaT said:


> I guess this explains your point (if you're not *too* lazy to go through it) https://www.ling.uni-potsdam.de/~zimmermann/teaching/clefts/1-Syntax.pdf.
> If it's indeed as you and this study say, then the cleft construction (who determines how they should treat me) corresponds to it.
> *It* is me *who determines who they should treat me.
> The one who determines how they should treat me *is* me.*
> 
> There's even an example *like* mine (with responsible), but they used "It is me...", this is getting more and more confusing.* *


Good find, and I agree with most of it. (I would not mark "It wasn’t John who/that did anything to help" with "*". It sounds fine to me.)

In fact, replacing "is" with "am" in "It is me who is not satisfied with himself" requires replacing "me" with "I" and "himself" with "myself". Then it becomes acceptable, though illogical.

I prefer the logical versions myself, with _that_, not _who_.


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## Tyrion Lann

what I think is, the word "who" can be used  either as a subject or as a object, and it depends whom who is referring to.

It is me (object) who ( object) is to be blamed [edited]
It was I (subject) who (subject) killed all of them.

It was your dad who ( subject) called me last night.
It is your dad who (object) should be killed not you.


The original question is:
 It is I/me who determine/s how they treat me.

Who works as a subject so I would never use me, I would say -*It is I who determine how they treat me.*


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## Jimbob_Disco

shri 8 said:


> what I think is, the word "who" can be used  either as a subject or as a object, and it depends whom who is referring to.
> 
> It is me (object) who ( object) got injured.
> It was I (subject) who (subject) killed all of them.
> 
> It was your dad who ( subject) called me last night.
> It is your dad who (object) should be killed not you.
> 
> 
> The original question is:
> It is I/me who determine/s how they treat me.
> 
> Who works as a subject so I would never use me, I would say -*It is I who determine how they treat me.*


Nearly...
_It is I who determine*s *how they treat me.
_
Also in your examples above, the first one should be _‘it is I who got injured’_, because, when you remove the extraneous information, the phrase is _‘it is I who got injured._


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## Thomas Tompion

shri 8 said:


> what I think is, the word "who" can be used  either as a subject or as a object, and it depends whom who is referring to.
> 
> It is me (object) who ( object) got injured.
> It was I (subject) who (subject) killed all of them.
> 
> It was your dad who ( subject) called me last night.
> It is your dad who (object) should be killed not you.
> 
> 
> The original question is:
> It is I/me who determine/s how they treat me.
> 
> Who works as a subject so I would never use me, I would say -*It is I who determine how they treat me.*


In _I got injured, I_ is the subject.



Jimbob_Disco said:


> It is I who determine*s *how they treat me.


I think Shri is correct about this.  There should be no *s* on determine. I deternine, you determine, etc.


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## Jimbob_Disco

Thomas Tompion said:


> In _I got injured, I_ is the subject.
> 
> 
> I think Shri is correct about this.  There should be no *s* on determine. I deternine, you determine, etc.


I know what you’re saying, but I just don’t think it sounds right - I wrote what, to me, sounded natural.  Now you’ve pointed this out, I haven’t a clue!


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## Thomas Tompion

Jimbob_Disco said:


> I know what you’re saying, but I just don’t think it sounds right - I wrote what, to me, sounded natural.  Now you’ve pointed this out, I haven’t a clue!


The first few posts in the thread discuss this at some length.

It is a mistake which people do make, which is maybe why it sounds natural to you.

Given that I don't think people would easily say _I who determines_, we need to consider why the inititial _It is_ makes such a difference to their perceptions.


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## NevenaT

I finally managed to reach a renowned professor of descriptive grammar at the department for English at the uni here in Belgrade, and she told me that it's formally and grammatically only acceptable "It is I who am responsible". She sent me a more or less detailed analysis, and in the nutshell it is that we have [It + (is + I who am responsible)]. So subject + predicate. Everything after the predicative "is" must comply with that copula. "I who am responsible" is just a noun phrase, but it's modified by a defining clause and the whole phrase functions as the predicative nominal here. In this noun phrase "I" is the head and it governs the rest of the phrase. "Who" is the subject of the defining clause which is the noun phrase complement and modifies "I" just like an adjective would. So the relative clause must be governed by "I", the head.
You need to dissect sentences if you want to really untangle all the grammatical threads. I hope this makes it clear. This is a question of descriptive vs prescriptive grammar. But in spite of that, she told me it's not yet that accepted in dg to use "it's me".
She also noted that it's colloquial and acceptable in some social contexts to use "It's me who is responsible" but definitelly not normative.


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## NevenaT

"It's me" is under no account normative, but it's become so colloquial that one mistake now leads to another. Objective pronouns  accept only infinitives and participles (you don't say "Him eats dinner" or "her plays with dolls" *unless plays had a meaning of a theatrical play or sth else, not verb but noun, in that case it'd be a possessive adjective not a pronoun) so we get this hybrid "who is responsible" idk why, but I guess because of "it". Me does have the 'authority' to govern the defining clause that follows, but that doesn't happen, so then "who" resorted to coupling with "is".
"She told me, who am trustworthy in her opinion, to keep the secret." Here all is according to rule, so why isn't it in the example above? Bad grammar-you can't restore a broken tooth, only fill it, and this is some wrong filling for this patient, but they can still chew.
I hope this is not all jumbled up and complicated to comprehend. The point is, we can't analyse them properly because the wrong constituents are used and there're just black holes everywhere because the rules can't be applied.


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## Forero

NevenaT said:


> I finally managed to reach a renowned professor of descriptive grammar at the department for English at the uni here in Belgrade, and she told me that it's formally and grammatically only acceptable "It is I who am responsible". She sent me a more or less detailed analysis, and in the nutshell it is that we have [It + (is + I who am responsible)]. So subject + predicate. Everything after the predicative "is" must comply with that copula. "I who am responsible" is just a noun phrase, but it's modified by a defining clause and the whole phrase functions as the predicative nominal here. In this noun phrase "I" is the head and it governs the rest of the phrase. "Who" is the subject of the defining clause which is the noun phrase complement and modifies "I" just like an adjective would. So the relative clause must be governed by "I", the head.
> You need to dissect sentences if you want to really untangle all the grammatical threads. I hope this makes it clear. This is a question of descriptive vs prescriptive grammar. But in spite of that, she told me it's not yet that accepted in dg to use "it's me".
> She also noted that it's colloquial and acceptable in some social contexts to use "It's me who is responsible" but definite*l*y not normative.


Yes, the sentence "It is you who determine how they should treat you'' is valid, but it has two meanings. You have just described one of its meanings, but with that meaning the subject is just "it", and this "it" requires a referent outside of the sentence.

For the meaning I think the author has in mind, based on the surrounding context (I know nothing about the original Arabic version), it is intended to be a cleft structure, for which "that determines" instead of "who determine" would be more appropriate. In other words, the "mistake that now leads to another" is in confusing the two kinds of sentences and the way "it" functions in each.

The difference has little to do with social context. Any social context I can think of in which "It's you that determines" is too informal or colloquial is a context in which the form "It's" would be avoided.

By the way, if I understand your use of the word _normative_, I suspect it does not apply to English. There are prescriptive grammarians who accept "It's me" and reject "It's I" as well as those of the opposite opinion. And this is not to say that anything goes: they all reject the combination "It's me who am".


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## SevenDays

The problem here is assuming that a sentence like "It is I who am responsible" reflects how people actually talk, but that's not the case, not unless they are on stage performing a play.

Still, "It is I who am responsible" is a cleft-sentence that derives from "I am responsible." In the cleft form, the subject pronoun "I" moves higher in the sentence and becomes the predicate in an _it-construction_ (_It is I_), and the _it-construction_ is then followed by a relative clause. In the transformation from original sentence to cleft-sentence the verb doesn't change. So, if the original sentence has_ *am*_, the cleft-sentence will have the same verb (_It is I who *am* responsible_).

But people don't talk that way (or "most" people don't talk that way, to avoid making absolute claims). Traditional grammar says that an_ it-construction_ takes nominative "I," but that's Latin grammar, not English grammar. In fact, there's no "rule" in English syntax that requires "I."  If you start the sentence with "It is," then the verb "is" has its assigned subject, the pronoun "it." That's the only function that "it" plays in this cleft-sentence, the function of "subject." Since the pronoun following "is" is not functioning as "subject," there's no reason for it to be "I." _Me_ is the pronoun used as subject for non-finite verbs, and the pronoun used when there's no verb for it. That's how we get _It is* me*_, because "is" goes with "it," which means that "me" is not paired with any verb. And (most/some) people say _It's me who *is* responsible_ because the speaker is referring to himself, with the relative pronoun "who," in the third person.

Then again, language prefers simplicity, and I suspect that (most) people would simply say "I'm responsible."


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## Forero

SevenDays said:


> Still, "It is I who am responsible" is a cleft-sentence that derives from "I am responsible."


I don't believe this has been established. It is related to "I am responsible", but it may just as well derive from "You know who is responsible? Me" or from "(The one) who/that is responsible is me."


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## Thomas Tompion

SevenDays said:


> Then again, language prefers simplicity, and I suspect that (most) people would simply say "I'm responsible."


Or _I am the one who is responsible_.


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## NevenaT

Yes the thing is that in "I am the one who is responsible" "the...responsible" is a noun phrase functioning as the object. And it's true that "I/me/the one" are not subjects but heads of the noun phrase modified by the relative clauses "who...ible". For that reason that head of the noun phrase doesn't govern number or person of the following verb form in the relative clause.
Yes now I see in the dictionary that "normative" doesn't belong in the post above, but prescriptive because of p. grammar.
The professor said the same, that in written academic texts you'd expect "It is I who am", otherwise always "it's me who is".
I know that you can't say "it's me who am", but honestly it's still vague to me what actually happens and why it is so. Does "who" change meaning or what?


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## Thomas Tompion

NevenaT said:


> in written academic texts you'd expect "It is I who am", otherwise always "it's me who is".


I wouldn't agree with this.  I'd always say the first.  I couldn't say "It's me who is".

I could say "It's me", but the relative you suggest would be impossible after that.


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## NevenaT

Well, there're many other forums online exploring this question. And I read an academic text where they used "It's me who is responsible". No one else said that it's impossible, if it really is then let's elaborate on it.
 I'm not saying it's common, this is just a linguistic issue. "It was me who bought the flowers."


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## Hermione Golightly

I've decided that I would avoid the issue by not using these  controversial weird sounding constructions and saying "I'm the one to blame/who should be blamed/to be blamed".
Of course there are several other simple ways of expressing the idea, such as "Just blame me!" or "I'm to blame."

It's a nuisance that English has no 'strong/emphatic' forms of personal pronoun.
If we accept that 'It is I!' is pompously pernickety these days, and reject centuries-old attempts to match 'correct' English usage with Latin grammar, as if nothing had changed since Dr Johnson's prescriptive day, then why would anybody dream of saying "It's I/me, who believe that the earth is flat".


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## Hermione Golightly

> I'm not saying it's common, this is just a linguistic issue. "It was me who *bought* the flowers."


There's no problem with the simple past, like 'bought', because the endings don't change as they do in the 3rd person singular of the simple present.


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## Forero

NevenaT said:


> Yes the thing is that in "I am the one who is responsible" "the...responsible" is a noun phrase functioning as the object.


The complement of a linking verb is not called an object.





> And it's true that "I/me/the one" are not subjects but heads of the noun phrase modified by the relative clauses "who...ible". For that reason that head of the noun phrase doesn't govern number or person of the following verb form in the relative clause.
> Yes now I see in the dictionary that "normative" doesn't belong in the post above, but prescriptive because of p. grammar.


I'm afraid "prescriptive" does not fit either.





> The professor said the same, that in written academic texts you'd expect "It is I who am", otherwise always "it's me who is".


Actually, in an academic text I would not expect either, except in the area of linguistics, where both may be discussed.





> I know that you can't say "it's me who am", but honestly it's still vague to me what actually happens and why that *is* so. Does "who" change meaning ot]r what*?*


If we are talking about a cleft sentence, using _who_ instead of _that_ is misleading since the referent is not exactly a person _per se_ but the same thing referred to as "It". But if we are talking about "me/I who am" as all one noun phrase, making "am" agree with a pronoun without also making that pronoun agree with "am" is just not natural.

What "sounds natural" is a complex issue. For example, compare the following sentences:

_I who speak to you am he.
Even on Thursday they still don't see all of you who have been waiting here since Tuesday.
Even on Thursday they still don't see them who have been waiting here since Tuesday.
Even on Thursday they still don't see me, who have been waiting here since Tuesday._

Just speaking for myself, the first sounds right but very dramatic and formal, the second sounds right and not quite so dramatic or formal, the third I think would be better with _those_ than with _them_, and the last just does not work without the comma and sounds a little unnatural even with the comma.

Modifying a personal pronoun with a relative clause, then, is not disallowed in English, but it does seem to be avoided except where the grammar is absolutely straightforward. This is probably why, once the translator who created the topic sentence of this thread has chosen "who" instead of "that", the verb "determines" sounds wrong to most of us, even though (I suspect) we all know instinctively that a cleft structure is what is intended.


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## Loob

NevenaT said:


> ... The professor said the same, that in written academic texts you'd expect "It is I who am", otherwise always "it's me who is".


I agree with the first part of the professor's comment, but not with the second.
I can't imagine ever saying "It's me who is wrong". With "It's me + _relative + be_", I would have only two options: "It's me who's..." and "It's me that's..." - both using contractions. And of the two, by far the more likely is the one with relative "that".


Thomas Tompion said:


> Or _I am the one who is responsible_.


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## NevenaT

OK, I wasn't that specific with the contractions, but that's somehow understood that you use contractions when you speak, the point was the type of construction.


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## NevenaT

@Forero Yes, definitely it doesn't take an object, I think this's issue started to exhaust me.
I'd for example say:
_"Even on Thursday they still don't see me who has (who's) been waiting here since Tuesday."_
I think I'm gonna give up because it's just more and more confusing, I thought that with objective pronouns you'd use third person singular or plural, and with personal pronouns you use all persons as usual. You also said it sounds unnatural, so that's a good indicator it should be avoided, as well as "I'm I" since it's archaic.


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## velisarius

I'd feel the need to rephrase:
_
Even on Thursday they still don't see me, and I have been waiting here since Tuesday._

What would "I'm I" even mean? It doesn't sound archaic to me.


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## NevenaT

Haha, it was funny to me by the way, it was just saying that examples where a personal pronoun follows a copulative verb are rare nowadays and people tend to use objective pronouns instead.
A stupid example indeed.
'Who broke the vase?'
'It was I/me'

'See' means 'meet' in the Forero's example I guess?


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## Loob

NevenaT said:


> Haha, it was funny to me by the way, it was just saying that examples where a personal pronoun follows a copulative verb are rare nowadays and people tend to use objective pronouns instead.
> A stupid example indeed.
> 'Who broke the vase?'
> 'It was I/me'


I'm not sure why you label "I" a *personal pronoun *and "me" an *objective pronoun.*
But you do, indeed, seem to be moving away from the topic of this thread.


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## NevenaT

Object pronoun, what are "I, you, he, she..." called then?


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## SevenDays

NevenaT said:


> Object pronoun, what are "I, you, he, she..." called then?



_I, you, she, ._.. = subject pronouns (because they function as subject)
_me, you, him, her _... = object pronouns (because they function as object)

_I, you, she, me, you, him her _.. = Collectively known as "personal pronouns" (because their meaning is obtained contextually from a "person/referent").


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