# I/me: Subject or object? Such a great forum for 'junkie' students like you and <I, me>?



## olcountrylawyer

"Such a great [forum] for 'junkie' students like you and I."

The above was written by a gentleman whom I greatly respect. I contend that the use of "I" is incorrect here because the pronoun is the object of the preposition "like" and should therefore be "me." Am I mistaken?


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## panjandrum

If you are, then I am too.
I don't have any theoretical backing, but in that sentence I would say "... like you and me."

I wonder would your respected friend write:
"... like I.
"... like he.

Who needs friends when he has friends like we.


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## tepatria

What if the structure was "...like you and I are." You and I are both junkie students, right?


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## laurahya

I agree with panjandrum. When we were little my teachers told me that you should try to say the sentence without the extra element, e.g. _'junkie' students like you and me._ You can't say _'junkie' students like I _ so therefore it's incorrect. It's simple, but it often works.

(Having said that, I also had one teacher who insisted strenuously on the "...and I" construction - is this an old-fashioned/class thing?)


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## mplsray

laurahya said:


> I agree with panjandrum. When we were little my teachers told me that you should try to say the sentence without the extra element, e.g. _'junkie' students like you and me._ You can't say _'junkie' students like I _ so therefore it's incorrect. It's simple, but it often works.
> 
> (Having said that, I also had one teacher who insisted strenuously on the "...and I" construction - is this an old-fashioned/class thing?)


 
In this case, I'd say it's a hypercorrection thing. While constructions such as _between you and I_ must have started as hypercorrection, I expect many people who use them now do so because they learned them as part of their mother dialect--their friends and family said it that way. But for a teacher to insist on something such as _like you and I_ makes me think that he's thought it out. He's come to the wrong conclusion (according both to traditional grammar and current standard usage), but he's not just depending upon what occurred in his mother dialect.


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## coiffe

olcountrylawyer said:


> "Such a great [forum] for 'junkie' students like you and I."
> 
> The above was written by a gentleman whom I greatly respect. I contend that the use of "I" is incorrect here because the pronoun is the object of the preposition "like" and should therefore be "me." Am I mistaken?



It's "me" because it's the object of the preposition "for."


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## olcountrylawyer

coiffe said:


> It's "me" because it's the object of the preposition "for."



Isn't it the object of "like"?


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## mplsray

coiffe said:


> It's "me" because it's the object of the preposition "for."


 
No, it's the object of _like._ Compare _People like us rarely misspell words._


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## coiffe

olcountrylawyer said:


> Isn't it the object of "like"?



Yes, you're right, I was on the phone when I wrote that. No effective multi-tasking here.


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## mplsray

Commenting upon _Such a great [forum] for 'junkie' students like you and I,_ *tepatria* writes:



tepatria said:


> What if the structure was "...like you and I are." You and I are both junkie students, right?


 
This would violate another rule of traditional grammar. In such a sentence, the conjunction would have to be _as: ...*as* you and I are._

I'm old enough to remember the _Winston tastes good *like* a cigarette should_ controversy.


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## NewdestinyX

Okay gang -- the 'for' is making the rest of the sentence in question function as the object of the preposition and therefore 'me' is correct. I don't think anything has to do with 'like'. And let me see if this is so. If the whole thing were moved to subject pronoun position then I think "I" is the only choice -- right?

Students like you and "I" need to spend more time focussed on...

I think a lot of people say 'me' there too -- and that feels wrong. What say you all? More hypercorrection?

Grant


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## AngelEyes

olcountrylawyer said:


> "Such a great [forum] for 'junkie' students like you and I."


 
I have to confess that now that I'm anaylzing this sentence, I have doubts. 

Here's what I mean:

If _like _is acting as a conjunction in this sentence, wouldn't the correct way to say it be the original?

_...for junkie students like you and I (are)?_

Is it possible both ways are correct?

*AngelEyes*

_EDIT:_
*Is it incorrect to use like as a conjunction in this instance? *


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## laurahya

I don't think it's incorrect to use "like" in that way. An equivalent conjunction would be "such as" but that would sound ridiculously formal in many instances of spoken English.

Interestingly, with "such as" I would use "such as you and I" - this suggests to me that, however subconsciously, I am associating "you and I"-type constructions with a higher register of English, whether they are correct or not.


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## mplsray

NewdestinyX said:


> Okay gang -- the 'for' is making the rest of the sentence in question function as the object of the preposition and therefore 'me' is correct. I don't think anything has to do with 'like'. And let me see if this is so. If the whole thing were moved to subject pronoun position then I think "I" is the only choice -- right?
> 
> Students like you and "I" need to spend more time focussed on...
> 
> I think a lot of people say 'me' there too -- and that feels wrong. What say you all? More hypercorrection?
> 
> Grant


 
Yes, it's more hypercorrection (or a dialectal usage which was coined due to hypercorrection). _Students like you and me need..._ represents standard grammar.

As for the word _like_ determining the case of those pronouns which follow it in the sentence discussed by the original poster, rather than _for,_ consider the following examples of usage taken from the entry for the preposition _like_ in the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary:

"it's _like_ when we were kids"

"was_ like_ him to do that"

In the second sentence, _him_ is in the objective case because it is the subject of _like._ In the first sentence, _we_ is in the subjective case because it is the subject of the clause _when we were kids_. That clause is in turn the object of _like._

Similarly, in _Students like you and me need...,_ the words _you and me_ are objects of_ like. _The subject of _need_ is _students like you and me._


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## AngelEyes

"[This is] such a great [forum] for 'junkie' students like you and I."


It's been years since I diagramed sentences, so I'd really like clarification.

In this sentence:
_*This*_ is the implied subject,_ *is*_ is the implied verb_, *forum*_ is the implied direct object, and then you have two prepositional phrases? 

..._like you and I_ doesn't modify the object, _forum_. I can't remember if you can have a prepositional phrase modify another prepositional phrase. Can you?


*AngelEyes*


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## mnewcomb71

I now have a headache.  If you are going to use a pronoun after the word like, it must be me, him, her, them (what are they called again).

If you want a subject pronoun, then you cannot use like, and the sentence would be changed to:

...as you and I are.


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## NewdestinyX

mnewcomb71 said:


> I now have a headache.  If you are going to use a pronoun after the word like, it must be me, him, her, them (what are they called again).
> 
> If you want a subject pronoun, then you cannot use like, and the sentence would be changed to:
> 
> ...as you and I are.



Yeah -- and that's the one I still hear people using 'me' on that drives me crazy.

But the hyper correction is so widespread after 'between and for' is so widespread that even national news media say: "between you and I" and "for you and I". And things like "for me and him" just sound utterly terrible to me though I guess they're correct.

Thanks,
Grant


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## avok

olcountrylawyer said:


> "Such a great [forum] for 'junkie' students like you and I."
> 
> The above was written by a gentleman whom I greatly respect. I contend that the use of "I" is incorrect here because the pronoun is the object of the preposition "like" and should therefore be "me." Am I mistaken?


 
"...like you and I" must be correct ( that's how I was taught )


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## mplsray

AngelEyes said:


> "[This is] such a great [forum] for 'junkie' students like you and I."
> 
> 
> It's been years since I diagramed sentences, so I'd really like clarification.
> 
> In this sentence:
> _*This*_ is the implied subject,_ *is*_ is the implied verb_, *forum*_ is the implied direct object, and then you have two prepositional phrases?
> 
> ..._like you and I_ doesn't modify the object, _forum_. I can't remember if you can have a prepositional phrase modify another prepositional phrase. Can you?
> 
> 
> *AngelEyes*


 
In _for "junkie" students like you and me,_ the segment _like you and me_ is part of _"junkie" students like you and me._ You could diagram it as follows:

for ("junkie" students (like (you and me)))

(I'm not dividing _"junkie" students_ because I'm not sure how it would be handled in this particular type of diagramming.)


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## AngelEyes

mplsray said:


> In _for "junkie" students like you and me,_ the segment _like you and me_ is part of _"junkie" students like you and me._ You could diagram it as follows:
> 
> for ("junkie" students (like (you and me)))
> 
> (I'm not dividing _"junkie" students_ because I'm not sure how it would be handled in this particular type of diagramming.)


 
I hope no one thinks I'm just trying to be a stubborn poster! 

The truth is, I would use _me_, too, but now I wonder about the diagram you would use for the original sentence.

Okay, mplsray, let's see...

_*for* _would be the preposition, I guess "_*junkie*_" is being used as the adjective for _*students*,_ the object of the preposition. And if I understand you correctly, _*like you and me*_ would be placed on the same line, right after students? I think that's what you're saying.

I was thinking you'd add another prepositional phrase, attached to the first one (*for junkie students*.)

The diagonal line would be coming down from _students, _with_ like _being the preposition on that second diagonal line. Would _you and me_ be on the straight line as the object of _like_?

If you choose _*me*_ as the objective pronoun, then you should be able to diagram the sentence and come up with the appropriate prepositional phrases. I'm just trying to see in my head how that would be laid out. 

It seems to me you can have a prepositional phrase coming off of another prepositional phrase. Maybe not.

Anyway, thanks for answering.

*AngelEyes*


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## NewdestinyX

Just to see what's out there said by folks:

Web Results *1* - *10* of about *541,000* for * "like you and I"*.
Web Results *1* - *10* of about *1,350,000* for * "like you and me"*.


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## NewdestinyX

tepatria said:


> What if the structure was "...like you and I are." You and I are both junkie students, right?



This is the crux of this whole matter. We often ellipse out the verb that's implied in that clause.

Like you and "I" is simply short for -- Like you are and like I am. = Like you and I (we) are.

Here's the problem:
I want to be like him. --but--
I want to be like he is.  --not 'him is'. 
---so semantically is there any difference. Nope. 

So you can see how people would start interchanging the object pronouns for the subject pronouns. In both sentences 'like' is the same grammatical role. ¿no?

It's really convenient that Spanish uses the same 3rd person pronouns for subjects and prepositional objects.
Para él/ella -- Él/Ella lo hizo.


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## panjandrum

GoogleWarning.

These results do not count instances of  "like you and I" as we are discussing it.
Take the first ten examples:
1. Nothing found
2.  *Nothing Like You and I*
3. Coordinated noun constructions *like "you and I*" change nothing.
4. I really *like you. And i* am 16 and thats true .
5. I don't *like you, and I*'ll tell you why
6. I *like you, and I*'m a caring professional
7. What people like you, and I need to climb Mount Everest.
8. I *like you, and I*'d like you to like me to like you
9. Nothing *Like You And I* by The Perishers
10. She is just an everyday person *like you and I*, who started blogging

Oh dear, I had hoped to find more of the black examples ...


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## panjandrum

NewdestinyX said:


> This is the crux of this whole matter. We often ellipse out the verb that's implied in that clause.
> 
> Like you and "I" is simply short for -- Like you are and like I am. = Like you and I (we) are.
> 
> Here's the problem:
> I want to be like him. --but--
> I want to be like he is.  --not 'him is'.
> ---so semantically is there any difference. Nope.
> 
> So you can see how people would start interchanging the object pronouns for the subject pronouns. In both sentences 'like' is the same grammatical role. ¿no?[...]


No.

I want to be like him.
I want to be like he is.
I want to be as he is.

Now I call New Fowler's Modern English Usage.
The  example is using _like _as a conjunction.  Here is what NFMEU has to say:


> Every illiterate person uses this construction [Few have observed like you have done] daily; it is the established way of putting the thing among all who have not been taught to avoid it; the substitution of _as _for _like _in their sentences would sound artificial.





> Constructions such as _Please try to write as I do_ and _Please try to write like me_ are standard; but _Please try to write like I do_ is described as being only in informal use, and especially in AmE.


Following a long discussion, NFMEU concludes:


> It would appear that in many kinds of written and spoken English _like _as a conjunction is struggling towards acceptable standard or neutral ground.  It is not there yet.


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## NewdestinyX

panjandrum said:


> No.
> 
> I want to be like him.
> I want to be like he is.
> I want to be as he is.
> 
> Now I call New Fowler's Modern English Usage.
> The  example is using _like _as a conjunction.



Great reminder. Thanks. But I have to say that most of the educated I work with still would use 'like' there rather than 'as' regardless of what Fowler's says but I accept your source as accurate -- not disputing it. Just another attempt of grammarians to make the rules work 'all the time'. ;-). But I hadn't heard that distinction in years.


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## mplsray

AngelEyes said:


> I hope no one thinks I'm just trying to be a stubborn poster!
> 
> The truth is, I would use _me_, too, but now I wonder about the diagram you would use for the original sentence.
> 
> Okay, mplsray, let's see...
> 
> _*for* _would be the preposition, I guess "_*junkie*_" is being used as the adjective for _*students*,_ the object of the preposition. And if I understand you correctly, _*like you and me*_ would be placed on the same line, right after students? I think that's what you're saying.
> 
> I was thinking you'd add another prepositional phrase, attached to the first one (*for junkie students*.)
> 
> The diagonal line would be coming down from _students, _with_ like _being the preposition on that second diagonal line. Would _you and me_ be on the straight line as the object of _like_?
> 
> If you choose _*me*_ as the objective pronoun, then you should be able to diagram the sentence and come up with the appropriate prepositional phrases. I'm just trying to see in my head how that would be laid out.
> 
> It seems to me you can have a prepositional phrase coming off of another prepositional phrase. Maybe not.
> 
> Anyway, thanks for answering.
> 
> *AngelEyes*


 
The diagram would be unchanged if the object of _like_ was _you and I,_ because in that case, as in the case of _between you and I,_ the subjective form of the pronoun appears in coordination with another pronoun and is being used with the function of an object.

As for the possibility that in the original sentence _like you and I are_ is being elided to _like you and I_, I just don't see it.


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## domangelo

I think the basic problem is that the nominative pronouns, "I, he, she, they" have somehow acquired a higher prestige in our minds than the accusative, "me, him, her, them", so to many people it sounds more correct to use nominative. That's why you have people answering with "It is I" and "This is she" and making prepositional phrases like "between you and I", etc.  This has become distressingly widespread, but fortunately, the great majority of people can still tell the difference between "I" and "me".


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## ElaHuguet

_Such a great forum for 'junkie' students like you and <I, me>?_

I would never say "a great forum for students like I", would you? Not unless you say "like I am", and you need the verb there, and probably a comma, too.  There's a difference between saying "students similar to me (you and me)" and "students, such as I am (you and I are)".

Regards, Ela.


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## NewdestinyX

ElaHuguet said:


> _Such a great forum for 'junkie' students like you and <I, me>?_
> 
> I would never say "a great forum for students like I", would you? Not unless you say "like I am", and you need the verb there, and probably a comma, too.  There's a difference between saying "students similar to me (you and me)" and "students, such as I am (you and I are)".
> 
> Regards, Ela.



Agreed, Ela. I guess the tendency toward ellipsis allows many to feel comfortable with 'like/as I' ,and other such statements, without the 'to be' verb. There's also an insuppressible urge in English to put yourself second and referred to as 'I' and never 'me'. This is something the grammar teacher of the 60's and 70's ingrained into the students and it's a hard habit to break.

Thanks,
Grant


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## NewdestinyX

domangelo said:


> I think the basic problem is that the nominative pronouns, "I, he, she, they" have somehow acquired a higher prestige in our minds than the accusative, "me, him, her, them", so to many people it sounds more correct to use nominative. That's why you have people answering with "It is I" and "This is she" and making prepositional phrases like "between you and I", etc.  This has become distressingly widespread, but fortunately, the great majority of people can still tell the difference between "I" and "me".



This is exactly it -- and distressingly -- "This is she" was taught to us in grammar school. Can you imagine? "This is him" sounds totally wrong to me. I would never use it. Ever.


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## wizard8451

Don't make this harder than is has to be.

(1) Take the original sentence: "Such a great forum for 'junkie' students like you and I."

(2) Now remove the information regarding the other person: "Such a great [forum] for a 'junkie' student like you and I."

(3) Read the sentence and see if it sound correct: "Such a great forum for junkie students like I."

Obviously, you would not say, "...junkie students like I." Instead, you would say "...junkie students like me." Therefore, the correct usage is "me".

You can use this formula whenever in doubt.


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## NewdestinyX

wizard8451 said:


> Don't make this harder than is has to be.
> 
> (1) Take the original sentence: "Such a great forum for 'junkie' students like you and I."
> 
> (2) Now remove the information regarding the other person: "Such a great [forum] for a 'junkie' student like you and I."
> 
> (3) Read the sentence and see if it sound correct: "Such a great forum for junkie students like I."
> 
> Obviously, you would not say, "...junkie students like I." Instead, you would say "...junkie students like me." Therefore, the correct usage is "me".
> 
> You can use this formula whenever in doubt.



Certainly -- but the problem with these is that the verb 'to be' is often ellipsed off the end of each pronoun -- in which case only the subject pronouns work correctly -- 

..junkie students like/as you (are) and I (am). 

It is a very common and natural ellipsis in English to take out the "to be" verb, 'are' and 'am', there. I guess my point is -- that with this type of sentence -- people aren't just forgetting their grammar school training like they are when they say 'between you and I'. That's just bad memory and hypercorrection as we've already agreed in a sub-topic. The problem with our sentence here is that is has both aforementioned "cases" possible depending on whether the speaker wishes to employ a very natural ellipsis.

Regards,
Grant


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## ElaHuguet

NewdestinyX said:


> but the problem with these is that the verb 'to be' is often ellipsed off the end of each pronoun... It is a very common and natural ellipsis in English to take out the "to be" verb, 'are' and 'am', there.



Again, would you say "students like I" or "students like I am"? It is very common and natural for people to find excuses for making mistakes (talking generally, not to you), and this one sounds good... except that by dropping the "you and", you realize it doesn't hold water. 

Regards,


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## NewdestinyX

ElaHuguet said:


> Again, would you say "students like I" or "students like I am"? It is very common and natural for people to find excuses for making mistakes (talking generally, not to you), and this one sounds good... except that by dropping the "you and", you realize it doesn't hold water.
> 
> Regards,



 -- "Every one of them is a student like I am.
--- "They are students like I am.

Perfect English sentences, don't you think? (In those sentences, likely a 'just' is being ellipsed before the 'like'.

Web Results *1* - *10* of about *27,000* for * "students like I am"*.  (*0.23* seconds)
Web Results *1* - *10* of about *11,500* for * "student like I am"*.  (*0.43* seconds) 

Not quite sure why I'm defending something so common. What am I missing.. I'm really not trying to be stubborn here. If it's bad or even mildly bad I really want to stop saying it. 

"..student like me" and "students like me" have a lot more results in Google -- naturally - but I'm just trying to establish that these sentences are not grammatically incorrect which is the challenge made in this thread.

Regards,
Grant


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## panjandrum

Google results need a little scrutiny.
Here are the first six *students like I am* examples, (outnumbered about 4:1 by *students like me*):
1> ... when you have great *students like I am* blessed with this year
2> Thanks for been (sic) there for new *students like i am*.
3> What are the Nisei *students like? I am* convinced ...
4> neighbors had tenants that were college *students (like I am* today).
5> *Students, like i am*, int his class are very good at what 
6> Its a great full or part time job for *students like I am*, 

The first five are either a different structure or have other features that would make them inappropriate as usage reference examples.

Apart from the Googlecounts, there are objections to this structure, not least that it is clumsy and inelegant, whereas there is nothing objectionable about the simpler and correct, "... students like me."


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## NewdestinyX

panjandrum said:


> Google results need a little scrutiny.
> Here are the first six *students like I am* examples, (outnumbered about 4:1 by *students like me*):
> 1> ... when you have great *students like I am* blessed with this year
> 2> Thanks for been (sic) there for new *students like i am*.
> 3> What are the Nisei *students like? I am* convinced ...
> 4> neighbors had tenants that were college *students (like I am* today).
> 5> *Students, like i am*, int his class are very good at what
> 6> Its a great full or part time job for *students like I am*,
> 
> The first five are either a different structure or have other features that would make them inappropriate as usage reference examples.
> 
> Apart from the Googlecounts, there are objections to this structure, not least that it is clumsy and inelegant, whereas there is nothing objectionable about the simpler and correct, "... students like me."



#4,5 and 6 are all exactly the syntax we're looking at and are prefect examples of the usage that's been challenged. Now I'm never a fan of Google as a 'prescription' for what's correct. Heavens -- people sure do say wrong things many times. But if it were as bad as saying 'brung' as some are trying to purport -- there wouldn't be so much usage as Google can often show. I'm just still not convinced that there's any grammatical error with the original sentence. The verb 'to be' is getting ellipsed after the you (are) and I (am). 

Regards,
Grant


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## panjandrum

Conventional grammar would have it that this sentence should end with *as I am* or *like me*.
Mixing the two structures is not "good".

This is a question of the different uses of as and like, not directly related to the current thread.
For lots of threads on as and like:
As, like
For example:
As, like - What's the difference? When to use each?

So, in our example, the sentence should end with:
...students like you and me.
or
... students as you and I are.


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## Sepia

panjandrum said:


> If you are, then I am too.
> I don't have any theoretical backing, but in that sentence I would say "... like you and me."
> 
> I wonder would your respected friend write:
> "... like I.
> "... like he.
> 
> Who needs friends when he has friends like we.



This is really funny because there are obviously different systems of grammatical analysis, most of them leading to the same result.

By the system I learned, the constellation

"... for 'junkie' students..." 

would be defined as a "prepositional object".

"like" would make the rest of the sentence an apposition to the object, therefore: 

"Such a great [forum] for 'junkie' students like you and me."


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## AngelEyes

I'm still wondering if *like *is not being used as a preposition here. That's why I questioned if it required an objective pronoun.

That's been addressed, though, I guess.

Concerning the appositive:

Wouldn't it have to be written like this to be an appositive phrase?

_...for junkie students, you and me, this is a great forum. _(Admittedly, that is an awful way to say that; in fact, I never would.)

Putting_ like_ in there changes the dynamics, doesn't it? (That's my main point in this post.)


*AngelEyes*


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## NewdestinyX

panjandrum said:


> Conventional grammar would have it that this sentence should end with *as I am* or *like me*.
> Mixing the two structures is not "good".
> 
> This is a question of the different uses of as and like, not directly related to the current thread.
> For lots of threads on as and like:
> As, like
> For example:
> As, like - What's the difference? When to use each?
> 
> So, in our example, the sentence should end with:
> ...students like you and me.
> or
> ... students as you and I are.



Yes, Panjan -- that seems to be the case -- but you would then have to agree that it would be very common to ellipse away the final 'are' (or other 'to be' form) and be left with: "...as you and I".. Right?

Let's say people use 'like and as' incorrectly -- okay -- but the choice of 'me' or 'I' is still personal taste and not an egregious error like "between you and I" is. That's something learned incorrectly in your grammar training -- where the other is a simple choice of the 'as' form or the 'like' form. And I am agreeing that people choosing 'like' over 'as' and still using the subject pronouns are making a technical error if 'as' is technically correct.

But I also think I'm hearing here that "It is I" and "This is she" are totally wrong no matter what our prim and proper grammar teachers taught us in 5th grade.. Right?

Grant


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## Ynez

"One" -- U2

Did I disappoint you
or leave a bad taste in your mouth
You act *like* you never had love
And you want me to go without


Is this use of "like" instead of "as if" any more common in general spoken English? Bono is not American...

Grammars say "like you do" is informal American English, but I was getting the idea it is just normal spoken English.


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## ElaHuguet

NewdestinyX said:


> -- "Every one of them is a student like I am.
> --- "They are students like I am.
> 
> Perfect English sentences, don't you think? (In those sentences, likely a 'just' is being ellipsed before the 'like'.
> 
> Not quite sure why I'm defending something so common. What am I missing..



LOL, in fact, you're not missing anything in this one, you've _added_ the "am" that was missing before... which does indeed, make it a perfect English sentence.  You don't say "like I", unless you say "like I am": it's a no-you-can't-ellipse-the-verb-here.

Correct: students like me / students like I am
Incorrect: students like I

Regards,


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## NewdestinyX

ElaHuguet said:


> LOL, in fact, you're not missing anything in this one, you've _added_ the "am" that was missing before... which does indeed, make it a perfect English sentence.  You don't say "like I", unless you say "like I am": it's a no-you-can't-ellipse-the-verb-here.
> 
> Correct: students like me / students like I am
> Incorrect: students like I
> 
> Regards,



Thanks for the input Ela. I respectfully disagree that you can't ellipse the 'to be' verb there. Where I live and what I hear on the news media -- the 'to be' is very much 'ellipsable'. But I am still open to someone showing from a grammar source that we can't do this. Also in the specific phrase you cite -- it does sound a little weird to me too to have a plural 'students' and then 'like I'. What does sound perfectly natural is my original: Students like you and I (are). I hear that a lot and am not convinced it's incorrect. But I am open. People who know me know that I want to speak well in both languages. And if this is just a regionalism -- I'd love to get rid of it. I've spent the better part of a year now reteaching myself to say 'between you and me' and 'for you and me' rather that the 'I' versions of each which are commonplace where I live and even in the national news media.

Thanks again!
Grant


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## panjandrum

If the "to be" is ellipsable, then you must accept the correctness of, "This is a great forum for old fogies like I."  That a version referring to both of us seems to sound better is no more than a cultural and euphonic confusion that, I fear, does not appeal to me:
This is a great forum for old fogies like you and I.
Pleugghh!

Sorry, but it is clear that neither of us will be converted - and I will continue to flinch at the increasing number of solecisms to be heard even on our national news media


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## ElaHuguet

NewdestinyX said:


> -- it sounds weird to me too to have a plural 'students' and then 'like I'. What does sound perfectly natural is my original: Students like you and I (are). I hear that a lot and am not convinced it's incorrect.



Riddle yourself this: why would plural change it?  Is it not just the famous conundrum between "you and me/you and I"?  As _Wizard_ said some posts back, just turn a problematic phrase singular to find out the solution: would you say "for I"? nope, it's "for me"; and yet, you could have a phrase like "he can be X, for I am too" and that doesn't make "this is for you and I" right.  The "like" in this case works differently when it's with "me" or "I (am)", same as the "for".

Try this: being incredibly rude and placing yourself first, can you say "students like I and you"?  Does "students like me and you" sound any better?

Regards, Ela.


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## NewdestinyX

panjandrum said:


> If the "to be" is ellipsable, then you must accept the correctness of, "This is a great forum for old fogies like I."  That a version referring to both of us seems to sound better is no more than a cultural and euphonic confusion that, I fear, does not appeal to me:
> This is a great forum for old fogies like you and I.
> Pleugghh!
> 
> Sorry, but it is clear that neither of us will be converted - and I will continue to flinch at the increasing number of solecisms to be heard even on our national news media



I'm really not gonna fight for it -- because it makes so much sense with the tests you guys have offered -- that this is clearly an objective case. I'm okay with the correctness of 'you and me' in this sentence. It's just when you have said something for 40 years and heard others do it too -- in a national setting -- it's a hard habit to break. Thanks!


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## NewdestinyX

ElaHuguet said:


> Riddle yourself this: why would plural change it?  Is it not just the famous conundrum between "you and me/you and I"?  As _Wizard_ said some posts back, just turn a problematic phrase singular to find out the solution: would you say "for I"? nope, it's "for me"; and yet, you could have a phrase like "he can be X, for I am too" and that doesn't make "this is for you and I" right.  The "like" in this case works differently when it's with "me" or "I (am)", same as the "for".
> 
> Try this: being incredibly rude and placing yourself first, can you say "students like I and you"?  Does "students like me and you" sound any better?
> 
> Regards, Ela.



I see all your points and can't disagree. It's a habit just as some Spanish speakers use 'habían dos' for 'había dos'. And it's important we don't keep changing the examples. I agree that 'for -- ' should always take object pronouns -- always. But in the said example the word is 'like' functioning and sitting in for 'as'. And I have a hard time seeing how shortening 'students as(like) you and I are.' to 'students as(like) you and I' is declared an egregious error. Ellipses like this are so common in English. To my ears it's no different an ellipsis than: "¿Puedes bailar? -- Sí, puedo (bailar). 

But I wil stand corrected on its technical correctness. Thanks for the input, Ela and everybody. I am learning all the time!!

Grant


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## ElaHuguet

NewdestinyX said:


> But in the said example the word is 'like' functioning and sitting in for 'as'. And I have a hard time seeing how shortening 'students as(like) you and I are.' to 'students as(like) you and I' is declared an egregious error.



I'd like you to understand why it's different, so look:

_prep.
_1_. _ Possessing the characteristics of; resembling closely; similar to.
2. a.  In the typical manner of: _It's not like you to take offense.
_b_. _ In the same way as: _lived like royalty.__
...
_5_. _Such as; for example: _saved things like old newspapers and pieces of string._ 
Students like you and me.

_conj._ _Usage Problem.
_1_. _ In the same way that; as: _To dance like she does requires great discipline._
Students like you and I are_.

_Notice the words I picked out in green, when "like" is functioning as a conjunction, it doesn't end properly to allow ellipsing the verb: "the same way _that_ you and I...", you obviously need the "are", but you don't need a verb with the preposition.

*(Origins of) like*

_... long ago it also became..., a preposition ("like a winner"), and a conjunction ("like a winner is"--a usage still deplored by purists, despite its age)._


Source: www . answers . com/like & r=67 (can't post links, lol)

Regards, Ela.


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## NewdestinyX

ElaHuguet said:


> I'd like you to understand why it's different, so look:
> 
> _prep.
> _1_. _ Possessing the characteristics of; resembling closely; similar to.
> 2. a.  In the typical manner of: _It's not like you to take offense.
> _b_. _ In the same way  as: _lived like royalty.__
> ...
> _5_. _Such as; for example: _saved things like old newspapers and pieces of string._
> Students like you and me.
> 
> _conj._ _Usage Problem.
> _1_. _ In the same way  that; as: _To dance like she does requires great discipline._
> Students like you and I are_.
> 
> _Notice the words I picked out in green, when "like" is functioning as a conjunction, it doesn't end properly to allow ellipsing the verb: "the same way _that_ you and I...", you obviously need the "are", but you don't need a verb with the preposition.
> 
> *(Origins of) like*
> 
> _... long ago it also became..., a preposition ("like a winner"), and a conjunction ("like a winner is"--a usage still deplored by purists, despite its age)._
> 
> 
> Source: www . answers . com/like & r=67 (can't post links, lol)
> 
> Regards, Ela.



Understood -- but "like" versus "as" I've already conceded -- so my challenge still stands -- I was using "like" *as* "as".. Does the ellipsing of the 'to be verb' still not work with 'as'? Though I doubt any grammar source factors in 'ellipsis' when establishing what should be said.


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## ElaHuguet

NewdestinyX said:


> Understood -- but "like" versus "as" I've already conceded -- so my challenge still stands -- I was using "like" *as* "as".. Does the ellipsing of the 'to be verb' still not work with 'as'? Though I doubt any grammar source factors in 'ellipsis' when establishing what should be said.



But you weren't: "a great forum for junkie students _such as_ (similar to, just like, for example) you and me", you weren't saying "a great forum for junkie students as we are".  And one of the reasons that you weren't saying that is because you didn't use the verb.  Read again the quote from "origins of like"... how do they differentiate between preposition and conjunction?  Like a winner vs. like a winner _is_.  Look again at the example sentence from the conjuction: "to dance like she does"; can you ellipse the "does" and say "like she"?  Or would it automatically turn into a "like her" and therefore a preposition if you took the verb out?

Take it to singular, were you _really_ saying "a great forum for students as I" (boy, you really need the "am" there!)? Or were you saying "a great forum for students such as me"?

Regards, Ela.


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## NewdestinyX

ElaHuguet said:


> But you weren't: "a great forum for junkie students _such as_ (similar to, just like, for example) you and me", you weren't saying "a great forum for junkie students as we are".  And one of the reasons that you weren't saying that is because you didn't use the verb.  Read again the quote from "origins of like"... how do they differentiate between preposition and conjunction?  Like a winner vs. like a winner _is_.  Look again at the example sentence from the conjuction: "to dance like she does"; can you ellipse the "does" and say "like she"?  Or would it automatically turn into a "like her" and therefore a preposition if you took the verb out?
> 
> Take it to singular, were you _really_ saying "a great forum for students as I" (boy, you really need the "am" there!)? Or were you saying "a great forum for students such as me"?
> 
> Regards, Ela.



Good stuff, Ela.. I do get what you're saying but the crux of this is in your last paragraph. The emphasis of this sentence is to say tha 'kind' of students that we are.. That's the issue here and the central issue. Any syntax that communicates that were are 'mere students' is not gonna work.

It needs to commmunicate --'the kind of students that you and I are'. (voracious ones, etc.) - So 'such as you and I are' is the best way to say that. "Student like us" emphasizes the fact that we are mere students. Not my communication. So the central communication semantically (and there is a huge semantic difference between the two) -- is the 'type of students that we are'. For me, it is perfectly natural to ellipse the 'are' off the end. And in fact, when a person would see "student like you and I" the 'only' communication they could receive is: "such as you and I are" -- since "students like you and me" actually communicates a very different semantic. I think we have to look a little beyond the grammar to the semantic here. 

I do acknowledge that you (and others believe) that when you mean "such as you and I are" you canNOT ellipse the verb. 
I also acknowledge that you (and others) believe that 'like' can't sit in for 'as' in such a sentence.
I also acknowledge that the original sentence with 'for' canNOT with any desired semantic be used with 'you and I'. That's the hypercorrection problem.

So there's plenty wrong with the original sentence when you believe those first two things. And I agree the sentence is taking lot of liberties. But the bottom line is I don't want to communicate:
...*students* like you and me.
--but rather--
..students *such as you and I are*. (our type)

So to be very clear -- I, like the rest of you, reject the original sentence with 'for'-- but I would still say, and hear:

This forum is a great place for junkie students (just) like you and I (are). ---(ellipsed) -- where like is an 'acceptable' and colloquial substitution for 'as'.
And that's what the original communication OldCountryLawyer's friend was most likely making -- as that is what I received from the 'problem' sentence.

Regards,
Grant


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## JamesM

NewdestinyX said:
			
		

> "Student like us" emphasizes the fact that we are mere students... So 'such as you and I are' is the best way to say that.


 
"Students like us" is the same as "students such as us". "Students like us don't party all night before a test." It means the kind of students who behave the way we do. It doesn't have any implication of "mere" to it.

"Such as" calls for the object - "such as us", "such as you and me". You are still using "I" with "such as". Using "I" doesn't elevate the meaning of students.  It's simply the incorrect pronoun with that construction.  At least, that's how I understand it, and I'm willing to be corrected by Ela.


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