# How American do you feel as a foreigner?



## Residente Calle 13

If you are not American do you feel that you have a right to express strong opinions about what the US should do domestically? Its laws about immigration? Taxation? Civil Rights?

When you as a non-US resident express your views about US domestic policy do you ever fear that Americans might find that patronizing or down right insulting?

What makes people who don't live in the US and are not American have such strong opinions about issues the mostly affect people living in the USA and its nationals abroad?

Has our culture penetrated yours so much that you think you're actually American or that you live here when you really don't?


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## timpeac

In order of your questions -

A - Yes - everyone has a right to express opinions about whatever they like.

B - No.

C - I don't think they do, do they? Not aware of it, anyway. I'm not aware of lots of discussion of purely USA domestic issues going on where I live, no more than those in other countries anyway. I suppose large countries are always going to be more "topical" than small countries as well, and the USA has one of the largest economies in the world.

D - No.


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## Bastoune

Given how ignorant most Americans are about their own politics, geography, history and government, maybe they need some non-Americans to tell them a few things.

How do you feel about the elections in Italy or the current events of Nepal?


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## maxiogee

I'm not a foreigner.  
I don't feel American at all, not even a teensy-weensy bit.  
I'm a native of where I live.  
I think, Residente, that you need to remember that we don't all live in the USA.


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## Residente Calle 13

How do you feel about the elections in Italy or the current events of Nepal?[/quote]

I'm aware of those events but feel it's *none of my business*. I don't think I have a right to tell Italians who they should elect. I don't think I have the right to tell the Nepalese what they should think about monarchy either.

I certainly don't think I have the right to tell Italy or Nepal that their taxes are too high or that they have too many immigrants.


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## timpeac

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> How do you feel about the elections in Italy or the current events of Nepal?
> 
> I'm aware of those events but feel it's *none of my business*. I don't think I have a right to tell Italians who they should elect. I don't think I have the right to tell the Nepalese what they should think about monarchy either.
> 
> I certainly don't think I have the right to tell Italy or Nepal that their taxes are too high or that they have too many immigrants.


 
Who said you did?


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## Residente Calle 13

maxiogee said:
			
		

> I'm not a foreigner.
> I don't feel American at all, not even a teensy-weensy bit.
> I'm a native of where I live.
> I think, Residente, that you need to remember that we don't all live in the USA.



It's hard to remember that when people from all over the world chime in on what are domestic issues in the US.


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## timpeac

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> It's hard to remember that when people from all over the world chime in on what are domestic issues in the US.


 
Really? Well maybe you should put it on a sticky note on the screen. "Not everyone lives in the US". There. Easy.


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## Residente Calle 13

timpeac said:
			
		

> Who said you did?



Nobody. But this thread is about the degree to which people who don't live here have strong opinions about US domestic issues and if Americans feel it's none of their concern.

It's not about how well-informed Americans are about *international *issues. It's about how well-informed people abroad _think_ they are about US *domestic *issues.


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## Bastoune

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> How do you feel about the elections in Italy or the current events of Nepal?


 
I'm aware of those events but feel it's *none of my business*. I don't think I have a right to tell Italians who they should elect. I don't think I have the right to tell the Nepalese what they should think about monarchy either.

I certainly don't think I have the right to tell Italy or Nepal that their taxes are too high or that they have too many immigrants.[/quote]

Right because you don't live there.  

I live in New York.

Meanwhile, the U.S. is inundated by tons of illegals and guess what?  If they're expelled, there are millions of people who do things the LEGAL WAY from Europe, Africa and Asia who are more than willing to take their place and without making everyone else have to cater to their language and culture in the process.

The "boycott" today is backfiring -- the only people affected are the illegals and their community -- gyped out of a day of wages and those who serve them are losing money.  The rest of us could care less.


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## Residente Calle 13

timpeac said:
			
		

> Really? Well maybe you should put it on a sticky note on the screen. "Not everyone lives in the US". There. Easy.



Are we going off-topic again? Do you think this thread is about sticky notes?


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## timpeac

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> Nobody. But this thread is about the degree to which people who don't live here have strong opinions about US domestic issues and if Americans feel it's none of their concern.


 
You obviously feel that they do, and too much, but have not presented a jot of evidence to that effect. If you want to have a discussion on this then you need to give us some facts. Otherwise it's just a game of pajas mentales.


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## timpeac

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> Are we going off-topic again? Do you think this thread is about sticky notes?


 
No it's directly relevant to the thread, and a direct answer to your post. Feel free to contact a culture mod if you disagree.


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## Residente Calle 13

Bastoune, if you live here then the question is obviously *not *directed at people like you. Please read my questions once again. I think you're confused.

I think everybody has a right to an opinion but I find it patronizing that people who don't live here opine on US domestic issues. At least you, Bastoune, have first-hand knowledge and are effected about US domestic issues.


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## KateNicole

Bastoune said:
			
		

> Given how ignorant most Americans are about their own politics, geography, history and government, maybe they need some non-Americans to tell them a few things.
> 
> How do you feel about the elections in Italy or the current events of Nepal?


 
I find that to be highly inappropriate. Think what you want (in your head) about us, but please don't unnecessarily call the majority of us ignorant, unless you have personally taken the time to meet the majority of us (doubtful). Your opinion on our intelligence, or lack thereof, has nothing to do with the original question, and such negative and insulting comments are completely uncalled for, IMO. I don't understand why it seems socially acceptable for people to lump all Americans together and call them ignorant, stupid, etc. If I said most (insert any other race/ethnicity/nationality here) are ignorant, I'd probably catch hell. I think Americans deserve a little respect, too.


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## Residente Calle 13

timpeac said:
			
		

> No it's directly relevant to the thread, and a direct answer to your post. Feel free to contact a culture mod if you disagree.



I don't have to contact anyone. This thread is about how people who don't live here have strong opinions on US domestic issues and take the liberty of telling us how to run our country.

If you want to talk about my poor memory or sticky notes please open another thread although I doubt it's within the scope of this forum. 

You've already answered my questions. Do you have anything relevant to add?


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## timpeac

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> I don't have to contact anyone. This thread is about how people who don't live here have strong opinions on US domestic issues and take the liberty of telling us how to run our country.
> 
> If you want to talk about my poor memory or sticky notes please open another thread although I doubt it's within the scope of this forum.
> 
> You've already answered my questions. Do you have anything relevant to add?


 
Residente Calle 13 it is not for you to tell anyone who can and can't post to any thread, even if you started it. If you feel people are off topic then feel free to contact a relevant moderator.

And could you please provide some evidence to back up your claims? Otherwise this is not a discussion thread, it is just an opportunity for you to take out an advert saying "foreigners take too much interest in American domestic affairs and it annoys Americans".


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## Residente Calle 13

timpeac said:
			
		

> You obviously feel that they do, and too much, but have not presented a jot of evidence to that effect. If you want to have a discussion on this then you need to give us some facts. Otherwise it's just a game of pajas mentales.



The thread is about how people feel not about how* I *feel. And I seek to prove nothing and don't have to prove anything. I'm just asking for people's opinion. 

You've said what you think. What I'm looking for is responses like the first one you made which is the only one, I feel, that's been on-topic.


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## Residente Calle 13

timpeac said:
			
		

> And could you please provide some evidence to back up your claims?



Which claims?


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## timpeac

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> Which claims?


 
Quoting your original question -



> What makes people who don't live in the US and are not American have such strong opinions about issues the mostly affect people living in the USA and its nationals abroad?


 
Who said they do?


> Has our culture penetrated yours so much that you think you're actually American or that you live here when you really don't?


 
What makes you think it has?


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## maxiogee

Residente, 
I have only ever expressed my personal opinions on America-only issues when asked.
The problem is, as you hinted in your question, that American culture and political decisions are so pervasive in their reach that there is hardly a corner of the world where decisions taken in America do not have a consequence.
Our media cover American matters to an extent which you may not be aware of. Your politicians seem to feel that they can tell the rest of the world how to conduct their affairs, intra-nationally and inter-nationally. This is not an anti-Bushism, Clinton and others did it too.

Do you object to us having the opinions or only to us expressing them. They may be unpleasant, but I think you'll find that they are not unfounded, or based on lack of knowledge.

Cordially yours,
Irish Tony.


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## GenJen54

*Speaking as a FORERA*, I think Residente's concern is based upon the fact that our government and policies are often railed upon in these forums, and forer@s feel free to chime in about our domestic policies - even at times when such comments are not warranted. 

I don't disagree with Tony about our world influence, but sometimes we (American forer@s) just want to scream out "give us a break!" You rarely see us criticizing the goings-on, political and otherwise, of other countries - and yes, Bastoune, many of us are very politically aware. 

The U.S. is a particular punching bag in these forums. I'm not complaining, just stating a fact.

*SPEAKING as A MOD: Now, everyone back in your corners and let's please play nicely!   *


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## Residente Calle 13

maxiogee said:
			
		

> Residente,
> I have only ever expressed my personal opinions on America-only issues when asked.
> The problem is, as you hinted in your question, that American culture and political decisions are so pervasive in their reach that there is hardly a corner of the world where decisions taken in America do not have a consequence.
> Our media cover American matters to an extent which you may not be aware of. Your politicians seem to feel that they can tell the rest of the world how to conduct their affairs, intra-nationally and inter-nationally. This is not an anti-Bushism, Clinton and others did it too.
> 
> Do you object to us having the opinions or only to us expressing them. They may be unpleasant, but I think you'll find that they are not unfounded, or based on lack of knowledge.
> 
> Cordially yours,
> Irish Tony.


Hi Irish Tony, 

I personally find it offensive that people from other countries express their views on immigration or taxation. I think an Irishman, in general, has no right to tell Americans that we need more or less taxes or more or less immigrants unless they are doing it from a economic point of view. I have no problem with an Irish economist writing an article about how immigrants are good or bad for the American economy, for example. Nor do I have a problem with an Irishmen commenting that we seem to have a great deal of immigrants as long as he's not telling people in my country to learn English or get out.

But that's just one opinion out of many. What I really want to hear is *your *opinion. 

But you asked my about *mine *so here goes:

I think many opinions, regardless of where they come from, can be based on study, be well-informed, based on ignorance or caused by prejudice. I don't think non-Americans are particularly more or less clever than we are. And as I hinted by my question, I think people who don't live here know a great deal about us. But I think it's *rude *for me to tell you that people born in Northern Ireland should not be considered citizens of the Republic of Ireland. The main reason is that I feel it's none of my business.


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## Residente Calle 13

Tony, 

I'm sorry if you got the impression I'm picking on you. I think you have the kind of tact that I wish other foreros who don't live here had. 

Once again, I'm very sorry. I think I should take a bit more time to post and check if what I am saying might not be interpreted the wrong way.

Sorry, man.


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## maxiogee

No problem, I think I was probably mis-reading you.
Regards.


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## cuchuflete

This may be a very short-lived post.  I'll delete it if Residente so requests.

I don't qualify, strictly speaking, to participate, as I am not "not American".  Americans from every state comment on the goings-on in other states.  Much of the country has strong opinions about NY City.  New Yorkers like to poke fun at Texans, and offer opinions on their school text book selection process.  I've heard many easterners refer to California's far left and far right communities, and the laws they lobby for.

I don't see a major difference  when this sort of commentary crosses national boundaries.  Some of it is well-informed, some is ignorant, and most seems "somewhat" informed.  

I'm astonished that about half the Italian voters cast ballots for a failed incumbent, just as many Italian foreros expressed astonishment that about half the American voters did exactly the same thing in our last presidential elections.  Such are the risks of living in a global community.


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## Residente Calle 13

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> This may be a very short-lived post.  I'll delete it if Residente so requests.
> 
> I don't qualify, strictly speaking, to participate, as I am not "not American".  Americans from every state comment on the goings-on in other states.  Much of the country has strong opinions about NY City.  New Yorkers like to poke fun at Texans, and offer opinions on their school text book selection process.  I've heard many easterners refer to California's far left and far right communities, and the laws they lobby for.
> 
> I don't see a major difference  when this sort of commentary crosses national boundaries.  Some of it is well-informed, some is ignorant, and most seems "somewhat" informed.
> 
> I'm astonished that about half the Italian voters cast ballots for a failed incumbent, just as many Italian foreros expressed astonishment that about half the American voters did exactly the same thing in our last presidential elections.  Such are the risks of living in a global community.



I don't think your expression of astonishment about the Italian elections crosses the line. There is nothing offensive about it, to me. Like I said, if an Italian made comments about how Bush did not win the popular vote in the first election, I think that's fine. What I would not appreciate is an Italian saying that our President was a dictator for four years. I have heard Americans say that, people who live here say that and I think that's fine (I disagree with it but I think it's not rude for them to say it). 
I *do* think it would be rude for an Italian to tell me that we ought to get rid of the electoral college (although I agree we should) because it's none of their business.

I wouldn't ever comment that Spain needs to get rid of the Bourbons or that the British need to get rid of the Queen. (Not that I believe that anyway). The main reason I would be reluctant to make those comments is not because I don't care about those countries but quite the contrary. I would be afraid to offend people from those places by sticking my nose where it doesn't belong.

Do you see what I mean? It just seems rude to me, akin to telling you how you should raise your children. No matter how well we get along as neighbors, I think that crosses the line. I would never tell a neighbor that they shouldn't let their kids dye their hair.

I'm sure many people who don't live here have opinions about stuff that goes on here and I don't think there is anything odd about that. I have my own opinions about Puerto Rican independence, for example, but I think it would be rude for me to tell a Puerto Rican that they out to be a state, become part of the union, or just leave things as is. I think that's something for Puerto Ricans to decide.


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## cuchuflete

Got it!  It's really about one's sense of manners.  Of course people have opinions, however well or badly informed, about the doings in other countries.  Whether and how much and where they should express those ideas is a fair question.  If, when I was living in Franco Spain, I had stated in public that he was a butcher and worse, I would have been arrested.  When I said such things with friends, in their homes, we all agreed, and nobody felt offended that I was a foreigner commenting on domestic issues.

Then I returned home to the US.  Should I have then refrained from commenting on the Franco regime?  I had acquired some first hand experience of it, including being told I couldn't read Neruda's poetry aloud in a park, because the poet was "a dirty communist".  Would my comments about a regime that didn't allow poetry readings have been 'butting into somebody else's affairs'?


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## Residente Calle 13

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Got it!  It's really about one's sense of manners.  Of course people have opinions, however well or badly informed, about the doings in other countries.  Whether and how much and where they should express those ideas is a fair question.  If, when I was living in Franco Spain, I had stated in public that he was a butcher and worse, I would have been arrested.  When I said such things with friends, in their homes, we all agreed, and nobody felt offended that I was a foreigner commenting on domestic issues.
> 
> Then I returned home to the US.  Should I have then refrained from commenting on the Franco regime?  I had acquired some first hand experience of it, including being told I couldn't read Neruda's poetry aloud in a park, because the poet was "a dirty communist".  Would my comments about a regime that didn't allow poetry readings have been 'butting into somebody else's affairs'?



I think Franco is within the gray area. Human rights are international issues. I think it's okay for an American to express concerns about freedom of the press in Cuba, for example. But I don't think it's appropriate for an American to say Cuba ought to grow more sugar cane. It's just not, in my view, polite to do so. Now if an agronomist said that it would be good for the Cuban economy I would say that's not rude.

---

P.S.

To the others:

Can we get into what _*other *_people think? Please? I would really like to hear what you think out there.


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## geve

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> If you are not American do you feel that you have a right to express strong opinions about what the US should do domestically? Its laws about immigration? Taxation? Civil Rights?
> 
> When you as a non-US resident express your views about US domestic policy do you ever fear that Americans might find that patronizing or down right insulting?
> 
> What makes people who don't live in the US and are not American have such strong opinions about issues the mostly affect people living in the USA and its nationals abroad?
> 
> Has our culture penetrated yours so much that you think you're actually American or that you live here when you really don't?


To answer your first question: Yes, I think I have a right to express opinions, on any topic. People fought for that right.

To answer your last question: I am well aware that I'm French. Not American. I know where I live, I usually have no major difficulties to find my way home  Even if the American culture has crossed the ocean (and I am not expressing an opinion on whether that is a good thing or not!) 

I can't really answer the other questions since I'm not sure that I get what you mean: 



			
				Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> This thread is about how people who don't live here have strong opinions on US domestic issues and take the liberty of telling us how to run our country.


If one hears about the domestic issues of a country (be it USA or another country), it's likely that one will have an opinion on these issues.
What does it take to call it a "strong opinion" or to say that they're telling you how to run the country?


			
				Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> It just seems rude to me, akin to telling you how you should raise your children.


If your opinion is that generally speaking, young children should not dye their hair, and if you tell that to people whose children have dyed hair, they will probably think you are telling them how to raise their children.
If you tell British citizens that you don't think constitutional monarchy is a good idea, it's likely that they will think you are in favour of getting rid of the Queen*.
How do you draw the line?


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## Residente Calle 13

geve said:
			
		

> I can't really answer the other questions since I'm not sure that I get what you mean:
> 
> If one hears about the domestic issues of a country (be it USA or another country), it's likely that one will have an opinion on these issues.
> What does it take to call it a "strong opinion" or to say that they're telling you how to run the country?



Yeah. I guess I wasn't as clear as I could be about that. I have a great deal of opinions about the French presidency. And I have very strong beliefs about what France ought to do about it but I think it would be rude for me to take a stance on that issue here because I'm not French and I don't live in France.



			
				geve said:
			
		

> If your opinion is that generally speaking, young children should not dye their hair, and if you tell that to people whose children have dyed hair, they will probably think you are telling them how to raise their children.
> If you tell British citizens that you don't think constitutional monarchy is a good idea, it's likely that they will think you are in favour of getting rid of the Queen*.
> How do you draw the line?



I think the line is what we need to think about. I think, above all, we must realize there is a line. I think you cross the line when you are "telling" people in another country how they should run their country unless it directly effects you or is an issue of human rights which I believe to be universal.


Workers in Flabaland should be allowed to a fair trial. 
Everybody in Flabaland should learn Mabanese.

Fair trials is a human rights issue. Everybody's business.
Linguistic policies in Flabaland is a strictly domestic issue. Not my concern.

On this forum there are many issues I have a strong opinion about but that I stay out of because I am not a national of the country involved. I think that it's okay for me to say that innocent people should not be killed in Corsica but I don't think it's right for me to tell a French person what the status of Corsica should be. It would be, I think, very rude for me to make a pronouncement on the issue especially since I have never even been to Corsica.


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## geve

Are you saying that one should not discuss politics with someone from another country? Or that one should not express opinions about a country he's never lived in?
Or is it just a matter of how the opinions are phrased... (we are on a language forum after all  ) 
If I take your example:
_Everybody in Flabaland should learn Mabanese._
_I find it appropriate to learn the language of the country one is living in._ *?*


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## cuchuflete

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> I think the line is what we need to think about. I think, above all, we must realize there is a line. I think you cross the line when you are "telling" people in another country how they should run their country unless it directly effects you or is an issue of human rights which *I believe* to be universal.
> 
> 
> 
> Fair trials is a human rights issue. *Everybody's business.*



George W. Bush believes, or at least says, that democracy is the right system for everybody.  That's cultural arrogance.
Others in these forums have stated that health care is a *right.*
That's not arrogant in the same way...it's kind and well-intended, even if all those who have not yet agreed to that particular definition of a right have yet to be consulted.

I share your opinion about fair trials, but I would think it rude for me to try to impose it on a culture that settles its internal disputes by a totally different method.  

I think the citizens of any place have--or should have--an unlimited *right *to mouth off or opine on any topic, including the domestic affairs of other nations.  Sadly, many millions are not yet allowed to speak about the internal affairs of their own nation.  I often feel heated disagreement with remarks by someone from country X about US domestic matters, but I've never felt it was inappropriate or rude for that person to offer their views.


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## la reine victoria

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> If you are not American do you feel that you have *a right to express strong opinions* about what the US should do domestically? Its laws about immigration? Taxation? Civil Rights?
> 
> When you as a non-US resident express your views about US domestic policy do you ever fear that Americans might find that patronizing or down right insulting?
> 
> What makes people who don't live in the US and are not American have such strong opinions about issues the *that* mostly affect people living in the USA and its nationals abroad?
> 
> Has our culture penetrated yours so much that you think you're actually American or that you live here when you really don't?


 

1. Do you mean specifically in the forums? Personally I don't give a flying fart about Amercian domestic policy. Its foreign policy under GWB is what bothers me. Positively scary! Expressing strong opinions on any subject is the right of every human being. Unfortunately we live in a world where total freedom of speech is not available to all. In such places opinions are still expressed but have to remain "in the closet".

2. Not applicable to me personally. Patronizing? Down right insulting? Take it on the chin! After all, you are the greatest nation in the world.

3. I'm not aware that they do. We are generally too busy with our own issues to concern ourselves with what's going on in the "land of the free".

4. Has it? Apart from the invasion of such ghastly enterprises as MacDonalds, Burger King, Walmart (known here as Asda) and the flooding of our television networks with dreadful sitcoms, I know very little about American culture. I have no illusions about my nationality, I am British through and through. I would never ever wish that I were an American. As for imagining that I live there. Heavens above. I am well travelled but the USA has never appealed to me, so I have carefully avoided it.

Interesting footnote: I was in my local bar last Saturday. Seated very close to me was a group of American tourists. Two couples with a child apiece. I watched them and listened to them. They seemed like aliens! Being a gregarious type I normally go out of my way to welcome visitors to my beloved island. This group - no way!

How's that for some strong opinions, Residente. I don't know if you are being deliberately provocative with this thread. You aren't the Residente I know and love.


LRV


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## Residente Calle 13

geve said:
			
		

> Are you saying that one should not discuss politics with someone from another country? Or that one should not express opinions about a country he's never lived in?
> Or is it just a matter of how the opinions are phrased... (we are on a language forum after all  )
> If I take your example:
> _Everybody in Flabaland should learn Mabanese._
> _I find it appropriate to learn the language of the country one is living in._ *?*



Well, how do you know Mabanese is the only language of Flabaland. What if most people speak Towakian and Mabanese is a language imposed by a powerful minority? What if the country has always been bilingual? What if Flabanese is a colonial language?

That's not fair to you becuase in my suposition I am changing the facts.

Sorry!

But my point is that I don't think I have the right to comment on French linguistic policy, for example. I don't think I have the right to say that Basque should not be official in France, or that everybody should learn Provençal, or that Alsatian should not be taught in schools in Mulhouse. It's none of my business. I'm not from there and I don't pay the taxes that fund those schools. And I don't have to learn Basque, Provençal or Alsatian or deal with people in France who don't understand me.

I just think that's a _*rude *_thing to do. 

Parlons de politique. Ça ne me derrange pas. Dites-moi que vous êtes contre la politique exterieur américaine. Vous en avez le droit. Mais, je crois que ça serait malpoli de ma part de vous dire, par example, que le CPE c'est ce qu'il faut pour combattre le chômage en France et que ceux qui sont contre c'est de la racaille. C'est carrement pas mon affaire! 

Toute vérite n'est pas bonne à dire. 
(Et lá, je n'exprime pas sur le CPE, hein! )


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## Residente Calle 13

la reine victoria said:
			
		

> 1. Do you mean specifically in the forums? Personally I don't give a flying fart about Amercian domestic policy. Its foreign policy under GWB is what bothers me. Positively scary! Expressing strong opinions on any subject is the right of every human being. Unfortunately we live in a world where total freedom of speech is not available to all. In such places opinions are still expressed but have to remain "in the closet".
> 
> 2. Not applicable to me personally. Patronizing? Down right insulting? Take it on the chin! After all, you are the greatest nation in the world.
> 
> 3. I'm not aware that they do. We are generally too busy with our own issues to concern ourselves with what's going on in the "land of the free".
> 
> 4. Has it? Apart from the invasion of such ghastly enterprises as MacDonalds, Burger King, Walmart (known here as Asda) and the flooding of our television networks with dreadful sitcoms, I know very little about American culture. I have no illusions about my nationality, I am British through and through. I would never ever wish that I were an American. As for imagining that I live there. Heavens above. I am well travelled but the USA has never appealed to me, so I have carefully avoided it.
> 
> Interesting footnote: I was in my local bar last Saturday. Seated very close to me was a group of American tourists. Two couples with a child apiece. I watched them and listened to them. They seemed like aliens! Being a gregarious type I normally go out of my way to welcome visitors to my beloved island. This group - no way!
> 
> How's that for some strong opinions, Residente. I don't know if you are being deliberately provocative with this thread. You aren't the Residente I know and love.
> 
> 
> LRV



Your royal highness, GWB is *everybody*'s business. I think you answered my question in the first line but you're so fun to read I'm glad you didn't stop.



When I was in England I heard quite a few stong opinions about the US and* NONE* of them was out of line. I think the things you talked about are fair game and you did it with a great deal of respect. That's what I would like to see more of here.

I never heard anyone in England tell me what language we should speak in America, how the anthem should be sung, and what we should do about immigration. But then again, everybody there was so bleeding polite! I'm just wondering if that's why I didn't get those sort of comments there.

I must stop before I fall off-topic.

Thanks for your input.


----------



## Residente Calle 13

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> George W. Bush believes, or at least says, that democracy is the right system for everybody.  That's cultural arrogance.
> Others in these forums have stated that health care is a *right.*
> That's not arrogant in the same way...it's kind and well-intended, even if all those who have not yet agreed to that particular definition of a right have yet to be consulted.
> 
> I share your opinion about fair trials, but I would think it rude for me to try to impose it on a culture that settles its internal disputes by a totally different method.
> 
> I think the citizens of any place have--or should have--an unlimited *right *to mouth off or opine on any topic, including the domestic affairs of other nations.  Sadly, many millions are not yet allowed to speak about the internal affairs of their own nation.  I often feel heated disagreement with remarks by someone from country X about US domestic matters, but I've never felt it was inappropriate or rude for that person to offer their views.




I couldn't have said that better myself! There are obviously some grey areas that could go either way. At what point are we meddling when the non-Chinese talk about workers in China? At what point are we imposing our Western morals on a non-Western country? Not only do I understand your concerns, I share them. But I do think there is a point where too much is too much.

And by the way, if I told someone from Maine that Vietnamese should be mandatory in their school system I would be, I think, just as off-base. Some things are just not my business. 

Finding the line is not always easy but I think there is one.


----------



## geve

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> That's not fair to you becuase in my suposition I am changing the facts.
> 
> Sorry!


Yes, that's not very fair, indeed.  

I have no problem with you expressing an opinion about unemployment in France. I even encourage you to do so! But maybe you _should_ just refrain from using "should" while you do, because this verb tends to turn any polite opinion into an arrogant statement...


PS: le CPE ? Qu'est-ce que c'est ? Mais ça n'existe pas, le CPE !


----------



## Residente Calle 13

geve said:
			
		

> Yes, that's not very fair, indeed.
> 
> I have no problem with you expressing an opinion about unemployment in France. I even encourage you to do so! But maybe you _should_ just refrain from using "should" while you do, because this verb tends to turn any polite opinion into an arrogant statement...



Yes! That's it! That's exactly it. Everybody is different. I'm sure that if you told _many _Americans that the captial of the country should be Los Angeles they would not get upset or thought it was rude. Sometimes what I find rude doesn't bother other people. I have had private conversations with friends from other countries where I have hinted I felt a certain way about a domestic issue in their country but I always try to put it in a careful way.

I don't think this forum, however, is an appropriate venue to tell other people how their countries should handle purely domestic affairs. Everybody has *the right *to do so, of course. I just think it's in poor taste.


----------



## hedonist

Bastoune said:
			
		

> I'm aware of those events but feel it's *none of my business*. I don't think I have a right to tell Italians who they should elect. I don't think I have the right to tell the Nepalese what they should think about monarchy either.
> 
> I certainly don't think I have the right to tell Italy or Nepal that their taxes are too high or that they have too many immigrants.







> Meanwhile, the U.S. is inundated by tons of illegals and guess what? If they're expelled, there are millions of people who do things the LEGAL WAY from Europe, Africa and Asia who are more than willing to take their place and without making everyone else have to cater to their language and culture in the process.



You do have an axe grind don't you? Those pesky illegal's culture and language aren't as foreing to the US as some people desperately want to believe. The fact is that Spanish and English have co-existed for centuries and will continue to do so whether bigots like it or not.



> The "boycott" today is backfiring -- the only people affected are the illegals and their community -- gyped out of a day of wages and those who serve them are losing money. The rest of us could care less.



I wouldn't be so sure about that. Quoting a poster from another board:

_...while a conservative segment of the US population is so busy waving their flags, enraged by current immigration policies, trying to revive nationalism and lobbying to close the borders, etc., many entrepreneurial Americans haven't been blinded by the right-winger's rhetoric and are busily developing strategies for an emerging market: the Hispanic Market.

 Remember, we're talking about good ol' capitalistic US of A. Last year (2005) Hispanic consumer spending reached 715 billion dollars. Current trends show that by 2025, 1 out of every 5 Americans will be of Hispanic origin and their spending will reach almost 3,060 billion dollars (with a "B")._

http://www.icsc.org/srch/rsrch/researchquarterly/current/rr2006131/Demographic%20Trends%20Driving%20Hispanic%20Consumer%20Market.pdf

Couldn't have put it better myself. It looks like they're here to stay.


----------



## Joelline

I've been sitting back quietly--trying to figure out what was going on in this thread.  On the first 2 pages of posts, it seemed as if nobody was really "listening" to anyone else (Some Americans were insensed because, I think, they thought Bastoune was not American!!).  Somewhere on page 2, I was about to enter; then, Genjen came in and wrote the opinion I would have posted, so again I refrained from entering the fray. 

However, now that I've read all the posts twice,  I've come to some conclusions:  despite what posters may or may not have said, what they've shown is that they have given a group answer to your questions, Residente Calle:



			
				Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> If you are not American do you feel that you have a right to express strong opinions about what the US should do domestically? Its laws about immigration? Taxation? Civil Rights?  *YES*
> 
> When you as a non-US resident express your views about US domestic policy do you ever fear that Americans might find that patronizing or down right insulting?  *NO, never even thought about it.*
> 
> What makes people who don't live in the US and are not American have such strong opinions about issues the mostly affect people living in the USA and its nationals abroad?  *Everybody has the right to criticize the "big guy on the block" *
> 
> Has our culture penetrated yours so much that you think you're actually American or that you live here when you really don't?  *YES to the first part of the question, but I'll go to my grave denying it; NO to the second part of the question, and furthermore, I don't even want to visit!  *


----------



## Residente Calle 13

Thanks Joelline but I was kind of hoping to get many answers from many individuals. I don't believe that you can boil this issue down to one collective response. 

I don't know how people can show anything on this forum without saying it so I don't get the part about : "...despite what posters may or may not have said, what they've shown is that they have given a group answer..."


----------



## elroy

If you are not American do you feel that you have a right to express strong opinions about what the US should do domestically? Its laws about immigration? Taxation? Civil Rights?
If you are well informed about them, yes. Just because they're domestic doesn't mean that you can't have an opinion on them. Likewise, I welcome opinions from non-Palestinians and non-Israelis about any of the issues going on in my country, *provided the opinions are well informed*. I don't have to accept those opinions, but I'm willing to listen to them and I think anyone has the right to express them if he's informed. If you're not informed then your opinion is not worth listening to. I would expect the same attitude from Americans. 

When you as a non-US resident express your views about US domestic policy do you ever fear that Americans might find that patronizing or down right insulting?
No, because I always make sure to express my opinion only when I'm informed. Otherwise I hold my tongue. 

What makes people who don't live in the US and are not American have such strong opinions about issues the mostly affect people living in the USA and its nationals abroad?
There are many reasons to express one's opinion. An issue doesn't have to personally affect you for you to feel strongly about it. Should we all ignore the problems going on in Africa because they don't affect us? 

Has our culture penetrated yours so much that you think you're actually American or that you live here when you really don't? 
I was exposed to American culture at a very young age, so in many ways I identify with Americans and my culture is "Americanized," but the way you've phrased your question I'd have to answer "no" because my feelings have nothing to do with a cultural "penetration." They simply have to do with the fact that I went to an American school and grew up around Americans. My culture (i.e. Palestinian culture) is still intact; my personal situation was a unique one.


----------



## lizzeymac

KateNicole said:
			
		

> I find that to be highly inappropriate. Think what you want (in your head) about us, but please don't unnecessarily call the majority of us ignorant, unless you have personally taken the time to meet the majority of us (doubtful). Your opinion on our intelligence, or lack thereof, has nothing to do with the original question, and such negative and insulting comments are completely uncalled for, IMO. I don't understand why it seems socially acceptable for people to lump all Americans together and call them ignorant, stupid, etc. If I said most (insert any other race/ethnicity/nationality here) are ignorant, I'd probably catch hell. I think Americans deserve a little respect, too.



Thanks KateNicole.  I have only been reading this site for a few days but there have been a few instance where posts have referred to "all" or "so many" or "the majority of" Americans and given the size & relative diversity of our population it is difficult not to take offense and to wonder if that person has lived in more than one place in America or has ever visited here at all.  These generalizations don't usually list our better qualities, which makes that much more annoying.  

Just to remind everyone  (I am using the EU as a comparison as the statistics are readily available).

US population - 298 million documented residents
EU population - 457 million residents

More than 300 languages/dialects are represented in the US, for some odd reason I can only find the "official" languages of the EU on their site & they only list 27, though there will be 6 more soon.  I imagine there might be almost as many languages used in the EU as here?

US geograph. - 9.6 million square km - a little larger than China
EU geograph. - 3.9 million square km

Heavens knows we have as many flaws as any one else on the planet & in the spirit of free speech please do discuss them.  
Just please think carefully about generalizations.
-


----------



## Residente Calle 13

elroy said:
			
		

> If you are not American do you feel that you have a right to express strong opinions about what the US should do domestically? Its laws about immigration? Taxation? Civil Rights?
> If you are well informed about them, yes. Just because they're domestic doesn't mean that you can't have an opinion on them. Likewise, I welcome opinions from non-Palestinians and non-Israelis about any of the issues going on in my country, *provided the opinions are well informed*. I don't have to accept those opinions, but I'm willing to listen to them and I think anyone has the right to express them if he's informed. If you're not informed then your opinion is not worth listening to. I would expect the same attitude from Americans.
> 
> When you as a non-US resident express your views about US domestic policy do you ever fear that Americans might find that patronizing or down right insulting?
> No, because I always make sure to express my opinion only when I'm informed. Otherwise I hold my tongue.
> 
> What makes people who don't live in the US and are not American have such strong opinions about issues the mostly affect people living in the USA and its nationals abroad?
> There are many reasons to express one's opinion. An issue doesn't have to personally affect you for you to feel strongly about it. Should we all ignore the problems going on in Africa because they don't affect us?
> 
> Has our culture penetrated yours so much that you think you're actually American or that you live here when you really don't?
> I was exposed to American culture at a very young age, so in many ways I identify with Americans and my culture is "Americanized," but the way you've phrased your question I'd have to answer "no" because my feelings have nothing to do with a cultural "penetration." They simply have to do with the fact that I went to an American school and grew up around Americans. My culture (i.e. Palestinian culture) is still intact; my personal situation was a unique one.



Thanks Elroy but you live here! 

Just to answer one of your questions in case it was directed at me. 

I believe that it would not be rude for me to make an opinion about many issues in Africa that do not directly affect me. I think I have mentionned some examples. But I do think it would be rude for me to make pronoucements on what the official language of Equatorial Guinea should be or whether or not too many foreigners live there, to point to a particular example out of a hat.


----------



## ireney

> If you are not American do you feel that you have a right to express strong opinions about what the US should do domestically? Its laws about immigration? Taxation? Civil Rights?


 
Do I have a right? Yes. Is it 'rude' as you call it? Possibly. I would call it silly in some people's cases. We all still have the right however to voice our opinion (it's that 'freedom of speech' "thingy").

Would I voice my opinion? It depends. First of all I must have reliable and adequate information.
Now, about 'strong' opinion. Laws about immigration? Opinion yes. Strong opinion only if I believe human rights are violated.OR if congratulations are in order. Taxation. If I believe it is unjust (i.e. heavy taxation of the poor, lighter (is that a correct term?) of the rich I'd voice my opinion. Strong? Probably not since I won't be able to really form _my _opinion without a really in depth research of US economics and I am lousy on such matters anyway (same goes for congratulations). Civil rights. Strong opinion if I believe that democracy is loosing points so to speak (or vice versa [congratulations]).



> When you as a non-US resident express your views about US domestic policy do you ever fear that Americans might find that patronizing or down right insulting?


 
No, I know they do. Some of them actually object to my having an opinion about US foreign policy really. Since however I don't find the informed opinions of others about Greece's domestic policy either patronizing or insulting I will continue to voice my opinion.



> What makes people who don't live in the US and are not American have such strong opinions about issues the mostly affect people living in the USA and its nationals abroad?


 
I think I made it clear that I am only interested in matters that I not only know about but also touch upon the ideals I believe in. I am not interested in the US domestic policy in particular. I do the same for every country in the world. I reserve the vast majority of my 'strong' opinions for Greece. 
Can't say why others do it



> Has our culture penetrated yours so much that you think you're actually American or that you live here when you really don't?


 
No.


----------



## Brioche

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> If you are not American do you feel that you have a right to express strong opinions about what the US should do domestically? Its laws about immigration? Taxation? Civil Rights?
> 
> Of course I have the right to express opinions about these matters. The US the world's largest economy, and what the US does domestically also affects me. If the US produces lots of SUVs, it increases the demand for oil, which has an effect on the world price, which affects all users of oil.
> 
> When the US changes its interest rates, it affects the world. When the US introduces "export inhancement" policies, it affects world trade, etc, etc, etc.
> 
> 
> Immigration obviously affects foreigners, only foreignes can immigrate! Those of us who have visited the US legally, (and jumped through the hoops, and been treated like idiots/criminals by US immigration at the airport, when all we want to do is spend our hard-earned money), find it quite absurd that people can just wander in undocumented.
> 
> When you as a non-US resident express your views about US domestic policy do you ever fear that Americans might find that patronizing or down right insulting?
> 
> No, we foreigners always express ourselves in measured, nuanced ways. If you want patronizing, listen to what Americans say when they are in foreign countries!!! They usually have no trouble pointing out what's wrong with the way we do things.
> 
> What makes people who don't live in the US and are not American have such strong opinions about issues the mostly affect people living in the USA and its nationals abroad?
> 
> As already mentioned, the US is the largest economy in the world. When America sneezes, the rest of the world catches cold. Nearly everything that happens in the US affects the rest of the world.
> 
> Has our culture penetrated yours so much that you think you're actually American or that you live here when you really don't?


Bits of American culture have penentrated ours, but we don't think we are Americans, and we don't want to be Americans.


----------



## Outsider

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> If you are not American do you feel that you have a right to express strong opinions about what the US should do domestically? Its laws about immigration? Taxation? Civil Rights?
> 
> [...]
> 
> What makes people who don't live in the US and are not American have such strong opinions about issues the mostly affect people living in the USA and its nationals abroad?
> 
> Has our culture penetrated yours so much that you think you're actually American or that you live here when you really don't?


I always took it for granted that I have the right to have opinions on anything I choose.

I am often interested in the domestic affairs of the US, to the extent that it's a 'test ground' for ideas which may one day reach my country. Many policies or trends were born in the USA, and then spread all over the world. Both good and bad ideas, in case you're wondering. So, when I see the progresses of the American intelligent design movement (to give a random example), that interests me, because one day it may be knocking on my door, too.

Finally, Residente, not all of what you mention there are domestic affairs. Immigration policies are clearly *not domestic* only. We've just witnessed protests against a US law in the US _and in Mexico_.



			
				Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> When you as a non-US resident express your views about US domestic policy do you ever fear that Americans might find that patronizing or down right insulting?


As the old saying goes, _noblesse oblige_.


----------



## Residente Calle 13

Outsider said:
			
		

> I always took it for granted that I have the right to have opinions on anything I choose.
> 
> I am often interested in the domestic affairs of the US, to the extent that it's a 'test ground' for ideas which may one day reach my country. Many policies or trends were born in the USA, and then spread all over the world. Both good and bad ideas, in case you're wondering. So, when I see the progresses of the American intelligent design movement (to give a random example), that interests me, because one day it may be knocking on my door, too.
> 
> Finally, Residente, not all of what you mention there are domestic affairs. Immigration policies are clearly *not domestic* only. We've just witnessed protests against a US law in the US _and in Mexico_.
> 
> As the old saying goes, _noblesse oblige_.



I have no idea how noblesse oblige has anything to do with this.

Immigration policies are not without reprecussions in other countries however, I do think it's in appropriate for me to tell a Japanese person that the Korean immigrants there are taking over their country. It might be an issue that's relevant to Korea but it's none of my business.

Mexicans do chime in on US domestic policy about immigration and to the extent that it affects them I think that's fine. I do,  however, feel, that a Mexican living in Mexican is out of line if they comment that there are too many Bolivian immigrants in the US. It's none of their business.

I do believe they have the right to make that comment. But I also believe I have the right to tell that person "no se meta en lo que no le importa."


----------



## maxiogee

It seems, Residente, that what you have a problem with boils down to what you perceive as 'bad taste'.
I don't think we can legislate for that.
One man's bad taste is another's hilarious joke, or plain speaking.

There are things some people do which irritate me. I put up with it.
There are things some people do which offend me. I put up with it.
There are things some people do which hurt me, I speak up about it.
If they do not stop the hurt, I remove myself.
It's all a matter of proportion.


----------



## Outsider

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> I have no idea how noblesse oblige has anything to do with this.


If you live in a world superpower, you shouldn't be surprised by all the spotlights aimed at your country. It goes with the territory.

Mind you, I'm not exactly sure which comments you and others read in the forum that made you feel the US are excessively or unfairly criticized. It's quite possible that I would have agreed with you that some of those comments were out of line.

But I still see voicing one's opinion as an unconditional right. I don't believe in 'right topics' to discuss and 'no-no topics'. This doesn't mean I will discuss any and all topics, myself. I do try to follow Elroy's principle of avoiding subjects I don't know much about, if not always successfully, and to look for the beam in my eye before pointing to the mote in my neighbour's eye. But I really don't like the idea that certain people should not discuss certain issues.

On the other hand, of course Americans have the right to criticize, debunk, protest about, or simply ignore opinions on the US with which they don't agree. I would do the same with opinions on my country.



			
				Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> Immigration policies are not without reprecussions in other countries [...]


That's an understatement. In the specific case of the US and Mexico, it's quite likely that US immigration policies affect Mexico _as much or more_ than they affect the US.

O.K., so I'm not Mexican. But you may have noticed that Europe has had its own problems with immigration, and many of our leaders look to the US for inspiration. In that sense, I may end up being affected by US 'domestic' policies, too.

So, if I ever voice an opinion on what the US should do about its immigrants (which I don't believe I have, so far), it will probably be because I'm thinking that I would or would not like to see the same happen in my country.



			
				Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> however, I do think it's in appropriate for me to tell a Japanese person that the Korean immigrants there are taking over their country. It might be an issue that's relevant to Korea but it's none of my business.


You confused me for a while with that, because I had missed the "in" before "appropriate" the first time I read your post.


----------



## elroy

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> Thanks Elroy but you live here!


 
I am here as a student on an F-1 visa.  I have only been here since 2002, and I've gone back home for most summers and holidays.  My whole family still lives in Jerusalem, as do I when I'm not here.  My American school was in Jerusalem, not here.   



> I believe that it would not be rude for me to make an opinion about many issues in Africa that do not directly affect me. I think I have mentionned some examples. But I do think it would be rude for me to make pronoucements on what the official language of Equatorial Guinea should be or whether or not too many foreigners live there, to point to a particular example out of a hat.


 
I really don't see the difference there.  If you are sufficiently aware of the sociolinguistic situation in Equatorial Guinea and you have strong reasons to lead you to support a particular official language, I fail to see how that would be "rude."  The key, as I said in my earlier post, is to be informed.


----------



## Residente Calle 13

maxiogee said:
			
		

> It seems, Residente, that what you have a problem with boils down to what you perceive as 'bad taste'.
> I don't think we can legislate for that.
> One man's bad taste is another's hilarious joke, or plain speaking.
> 
> There are things some people do which irritate me. I put up with it.
> There are things some people do which offend me. I put up with it.
> There are things some people do which hurt me, I speak up about it.
> If they do not stop the hurt, I remove myself.
> It's all a matter of proportion.



Yes, that's true. I'm not trying to advocate a law against it. But I still believe "manners maketh man."


----------



## Residente Calle 13

elroy said:
			
		

> I am here as a student on an F-1 visa.  I have only been here since 2002, and I've gone back home for most summers and holidays.  My whole family still lives in Jerusalem, as do I when I'm not here.  My American school was in Jerusalem, not here.



I think that means you can make certain comments without being rude that coming from other people is out of line. You still live here now. You are still on the same boat as me. If a national sales tax of 50 percent on all purchases is imposed in the US, you will still have to pay it at the register when you're not back home. So that, I think, gives you the leeway to say "that kind of tax is bullshit." or "I think that tax is damn good idea." 

If somebody who lives in Jersalem made a comment like that my first instinct would be to ask them : "What's it to you?"




			
				elroy said:
			
		

> I really don't see the difference there.  If you are sufficiently aware of the sociolinguistic situation in Equatorial Guinea and you have strong reasons to lead you to support a particular official language, I fail to see how that would be "rude."  The key, as I said in my earlier post, is to be informed.



I don't think anybody, no matter how well informed, should tell another country what language should be official in that country. You may not think it's rude. I do. So it's a matter of taste.

I think that if a Chinese person told me that English should not be official in the United States (and I agree with this view) I would tell them, no matter how well-informed he is, that this is a sovereign country and that we decide what's law here not people from other countries.


There are exceptions, of course. I think it's appropriate for someone in another country to talk about laws that concern human rights issues in the US because I believe those are universal, in my humble opinion.


----------



## Outsider

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> I don't think anybody, no matter how well informed, should tell another country what language should be official in that country. You may not think it's rude. I do. So it's a matter of taste.


You see it as a matter of taste. Fair enough, but let me ask you a question. Well, two questions:

How well informed about languages in the US do you think the average American is?
Do you agree that it's possible for a non-American to be better informed about languages in the US than a particular American?


----------



## Residente Calle 13

Outsider said:
			
		

> If you live in a world superpower, you shouldn't be surprised by all the spotlights aimed at your country. It goes with the territory.


I don't mind the spotlight and am not surprised by it. Some criticism is not off-base. 



			
				Outsider said:
			
		

> O.K., so I'm not Mexican. But you may have noticed that Europe has had its own problems with immigration, and many of our leaders look to the US for inspiration. In that sense, I may end up being affected by US 'domestic' policies, too.


I don't see how amnesty for undocumented workers in the US affects Portugal directly. I suppose if there might be undocumented Portuguese workers in the US and in that case, I think you are not out of line in addressing your concern about those issues because those people are your compatriots. But while I think that you have the right to say, for example, that no undocumented workers in the US should be granted amnesty, it's none of your business.

I think that in a European context, immigration is more complex because of the EU so talking about immigration in Spain might be appropriate for a Portuguese person. But our immigrants are not going to cross the border into Portugal. They don't really effect you. It's none of your concern.




			
				Outsider said:
			
		

> So, if I ever voice an opinion on what the US should do about its immigrants (which I don't believe I have, so far), it will probably be because I'm thinking that I would or would not like to see the same happen in my country.


And I think that's fine. You worry about immigration over there. I'll worry about it over here. To each his own. That's my feeling on the matter.


----------



## Bastoune

Newsflash:  IMMIGRATION IS A WORLDWIDE PHENOMENON AND IMMIGRATION PROBLEMS IN EUROPE ARE LINKED DIRECTLY AND INDIRECTLY TO THOSE IN THE UNITED STATES.

So, Residente, it IS your problem.  Or very soon will be.  A great deal of those immigrants going to Europe would come to the U.S. if the illegals here weren't saturating the market in the U.S.


----------



## Residente Calle 13

Outsider said:
			
		

> You see it as a matter of taste. Fair enough, but let me ask you a question. Well, two questions:
> 
> How well informed about languages in the US do you think the average American is?
> Do you agree that it's possible for a non-American to be better informed about languages in the US than a particular American?



It doesn't matter. In this country, our citizens decide those issues. We don't need people, no matter how well-informed, from other countries to tell us what to do.

Would you like it if a panel of well-informed Americans told you what languages should be official in Portugal? I *do *mind a panel of well-informed people who don't live here telling us what language should be official in this country. It's patronizing.

In two hundred years or so we have never collectively decided to have an official language. When we do, if we do, we will. The free advice from abroad, to me, is worth what we are paying for it.


----------



## Residente Calle 13

Bastoune said:
			
		

> Newsflash:  IMMIGRATION IS A WORLDWIDE PHENOMENON AND IMMIGRATION PROBLEMS IN EUROPE ARE LINKED DIRECTLY AND INDIRECTLY TO THOSE IN THE UNITED STATES.
> 
> So, Residente, it IS your problem.  Or very soon will be.  A great deal of those immigrants going to Europe would come to the U.S. if the illegals here weren't saturating the market in the U.S.



--REMOVED PERSONAL REMARK--

Immigration in Europe is their business not mine. Unless it's a human rights issue, I don't talk about it. I'm not European. Let them deal with their own issues. I talk about people coming to the *US*. That's *my* country.


----------



## cuchuflete

Here's a monkey wrench to throw into the works:

If it's ok to insert one's opinion about other people's countries, and how they deal with domestic issues...if those issues have something to do with human rights...which side of the rude-mind your own business///fair game  line to you put the death penalty on?

Example:  Somebody in, let's say, Texas rapes and murders a neighbor.  The victim has lost the most fundamental human right: life.  The murderer/rapist is sentenced to death--another human rights issue.  In most of Europe the death penalty is decried as a human rights abuse.  In Texas it is seen as a 'fair' response to particularly heinous crimes.

Does a well-informed European have the right--within the bounds of good manners--to tell a Texan that they shouldn't kill murderers and rapists?  

My state abolished the death penalty long before its abolition became fashionable in Europe.  Do I have the right to comment on its application or lack of use in France, or in Texas?

The problem I see with the human rights yardstick for deciding what is fair game for comment is that human rights are not defined the same way in all places.  I think anyone has the 'right' to comment on Texans killing murderers and Italians locking them up and throwing away the key.  I don't care if an Englishman chooses to comment on US taxation policies...I've written here that the VAT is more regressive than an income tax.  How can that be rude or offensive?  It's about arithmetic and how it affects rich and poor people. It's also about different local policies, applied to domestic affairs.


----------



## Residente Calle 13

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Here's a monkey wrench to throw into the works:
> 
> If it's ok to insert one's opinion about other people's countries, and how they deal with domestic issues...if those issues have something to do with human rights...which side of the rude-mind your own business///fair game  line to you put the death penalty on?



My personal opinion is that the death penalty is fair game. Some laws that we have, some may feel, violate a person's human rights and may involve foreign nationals. I believe there is a Spanish national on death row in Florida. Any Spanish national who wants to chime in on how the death penalty is barbaric has carte blanche, I feel, and by extension every national of the EU and perhaps even every member of the human race on the grounds of human rights. 



			
				cuchuflete said:
			
		

> I don't care if an Englishman chooses to comment on US taxation policies...I've written here that the VAT is more regressive than an income tax.  How can that be rude or offensive?



In that context, it's not rude or offensive, to me. You have written that the VAT is regressive not that a domestic law about taxation in a country that you don't live in should be changed. British taxes stopped being our business two hundred plus years ago.

I read foreigners who don't live here chime in on what's regressive taxation in the US all the time. I even hear them comment about income distribution and things like that. That's all fair game in my humble opinion. Now if they told me that the US should nationalize our automotive industry I would think that's out of line.

There are some gray areas, like I said. Maybe a Canadian is *not *rude to point out that the US ought to tax gasoline or SUVs a bit more to curb consumption, and that's a domestic policy that has nothing to do with human rights, but how much oil the US consumes does have international repercussions. Acid rain that falls on their side of the border, again, totally their business. But a Saudi who tells me that women in the US shouldn't be allowed to vote get's a "mind your neck" from el Residente.

Some stuff is gray, some is okay, and some is "mind your neck, B."


----------



## Outsider

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> It doesn't matter. In this country, our citizens decide those issues. We don't need people, no matter how well-informed, from other countries to tell us what to do.
> 
> Would you like it if a panel of well-informed Americans told you what languages should be official in Portugal? I *do *mind a panel of well-informed people who don't live here telling us what language should be official in this country. It's patronizing.


If they really were well-informed, I would listen to what they had to say. I wouldn't see it as patronizing, I would see it as 'two heads think better than one'.

Even if they were not well informed, what can I do to stop people from criticizing my country? Nothing.


----------



## Residente Calle 13

Outsider said:
			
		

> If they really were well-informed, I would listen to what they had to say. I wouldn't see it as patronizing, I would see it as 'two heads think better than one'.





			
				Outsider said:
			
		

> Even if they were not well informed, what can I do to stop people from criticizing my country? Nothing.


And I can't do anything about people yelling into their cellphones at the movies but it's still *rude*, I think! 

I don't mind people criticizing US foreign policy, or even to some extent, US domestic policy. I don't care where they're from. It's not the criticism of my country that I object to. It's the lectures on how my country ought to, for example, sing its own freaking national anthem that ticks me off. Maybe it should be sung only in English. But unless you're American, mind your own damn business!

(That wasn't directed towards you, btw )


----------



## elroy

Residente, when informed people criticize something that they are informed about, they are not telling you "what to do."  They're expressing their opinion about how they feel things should be, based on information and experience.  Indeed, it's almost impossible _not_ to have an opinion about something you know about.

It sounds to me as if you were suggesting that you would prefer a non-informed opinion from an American over an informed one from an outsider, just because the American happens to live in the US.  That, to me, is absurd.


----------



## Residente Calle 13

elroy said:
			
		

> It sounds to me as if you were suggesting that you would prefer a non-informed opinion from an American over an informed one from an outsider, just because the American happens to live in the US.  That, to me, is absurd.



Not at all. And that _*would *_be absurd.

Here are some issues that I would feel comfortable with hearing opinions from people who don't live here:


How immigrants are good or bad for the US economy.
The rights of minority groups in the US.
Subsidies the US government gives to sectors of the economy.
The national debt/trade defecit.
Here are some issues that I would feel *uncomfortable *with hearing opinions from people who don't live here:


What language we should speak.
What language we should sing our national anthem in.
Who we should allow to stay in this country
How we should elect our president.
Notice how the word always "should" appears in my list of no-nos. Maybe well-informed people don't tell you what you should do but just provide different suggestions. But I'm done. I'm done with this. I don't know how else to say it. Some things, people, *are not your business*. If you are not American you have the right to say you don't like somethings but if it's not your business it's not your business.

Bush in the Middle East, that's fair game. Bush's tax cuts, that's ours. It's something that involves people like me and you who suffer the consequences. I don't care how well-informed you are. You can tell me that they were good or bad but don't tell my government what to with my money. It's mine, not yours.


----------



## GenJen54

I'm going to play devil's advocate here again. 

Speaking as a *forerA, *I again share some of the Americans' frustrations that others seem to find no qualms about - and even seem to enjoy - picking apart the policies and politics of the United States. I do, on occasion, feel "picked upon" in that manner, and it grows tiresome to say the least. 

Speaking as a *MOD*, these forums are open to all who call themselves members of Word Reference. As long as they *follow the rules*, and *follow the spirit of the topic as it was intended in the originating post*, they have the right to speak their mind, even if their opinions may be considered "rude" by some. 

We are all equals here. That means we all have the right to either agree or disagree with others' opinions. That also means we have the right to comment upon others' governments, even if we don't agree with them. 

Whether it is considered rude is entirely subjective.

Is it inappropriate? Not really.

Is it their business? In the context of these forums, sure. We're all here in neutral territory, so I would have to say yes, even though I don't (as a forer@ or mod) always like it.


----------



## Tatzingo

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> Here are some issues that I would feel *uncomfortable *with hearing opinions from people who don't live here:
> What language we should speak.
> What language we should sing our national anthem in.
> Who we should allow to stay in this country
> How we should elect our president.



Hello,

After 60+ postings, i'm actually a bit lost. 

I think that everyone is entitled to have an opinion about anything and i'm sure that that opinion's not necessarily going to please everyone, but regardless, it is just an opinion, equally valid whether it comes from someone who is affected by the issue or not. You can choose whether to listen to it or ignore it.

Tatz.


----------



## Papalote

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> *Speaking as a FORERA*, I think Residente's concern is based upon the fact that our government and policies are often railed upon in these forums, and forer@s feel free to chime in about our domestic policies - even at times when such comments are not warranted.
> 
> I don't disagree with Tony about our world influence, but sometimes we (American forer@s) just want to scream out "give us a break!" *You rarely see us criticizing the goings-on, political and otherwise, of other countries* - and yes, Bastoune, many of us are very politically aware.
> 
> The U.S. is a particular punching bag in these forums. I'm not complaining, just stating a fact.
> 
> *SPEAKING as A MOD: Now, everyone back in your corners and let's please play nicely!  *


 
Hi,

I`ve just come back from vacation, away from the tech world, what bliss, so, because of time constraints, I havent read all of the posts, but I would like to comment on the GenJen`s text which I have blocked in blue.

Residente, what the USA does is of interest to most of the world because it affects most of the world. There is no need for the USA to critize anybody because whatever that government doesn`t like it seeks to change, wordlessly. Without going into invasions, let me point out that the USA, Canada and other nations which I can`t recall at the moment, have monitored presidential elections in many countries, two examples which I recall being Mexico and Haiti. This is not criticizing ?? Perhaps a really good euphemism should be found for this kind of non-criticism of other countries` domestic issues.

Also, to keep within the original question, I am only interested in USA domestic affairs when they affect other nations and peoples. Taxation and all other essentially USA domestic issues are no concern of mine, but I do feel sorry for over-taxed Americans. (Well, not only Americans  ).

The world might be interested in American issues, domestic and international, because, as the saying goes amongst its neighbours, when the USA sneezes we all catch cold. That doesn`t mean that we feel we are American.

The conversations have probably gone beyond the first five posts (or six ??) I`ve read. If I`m totally off the mark by now, I beg your understanding.

Hasta,

Papalote


----------



## Residente Calle 13

I never meant to suggest that people didn't have a right to an opinion. But don't be surprised of some of us get sick of all the bullshit and move to more friendly territory. Nobody likes to be constantly under assault. 

I've said all I have to say.


----------



## GenJen54

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> Nobody likes to be constantly under assault.


I could not agree with you more. 



			
				papalote said:
			
		

> *You rarely see us criticizing the goings-on, political and otherwise, of other countries* -


 
I was speaking of "we" the American forer@s, not "we" the government of the U.S. 

Americans in general take a lot of heat in these forums. I challenge anyone to count the number of "anti-American" threads in these forums vs. those "anti" any other countries or their policies. 

As said before, and as I believe Residente is conveying, it grows tiresome.


----------



## Joelline

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> Americans in general take a lot of heat in these forums. I challenge anyone to count the number of "anti-American" threads in these forums vs. those "anti" any other countries or their policies.
> 
> As said before, and as I believe Residente is conveying, it grows tiresome.


 
Amen, amen, amen!


----------



## paulvial

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> If you are not American do you feel that you have a right to express strong opinions about what the US should do domestically? Its laws about immigration? Taxation? Civil Rights?
> * yes i have a right to to express any opinions i like , in the same way as you as an american have the right to ignore it *
> 
> When you as a non-US resident express your views about US domestic policy do you ever fear that Americans might find that patronizing or down right insulting?
> * i dont fear it  any more that i am sure many find the way americans are often patronising about others *
> 
> What makes people who don't live in the US and are not American have such strong opinions about issues the mostly affect people living in the USA and its nationals abroad?
> * i think you could reverse this question , by replacing "Americans" by many other nationalities and get a lot more answers *
> 
> Has our culture penetrated yours so much that you think you're actually American or that you live here when you really don't?


 no comment ,_* as i am not so sure what American culture is !!!*_


----------



## elroy

I resent constant American-bashing as much as anyone.  It seems to be a fad lately; I've come across all too many non-Americans who have absolutely no qualms about criticizing America no matter what the occasion or the topic.  I agree that it grows tiresome and annoying.  

However, I am all for sharing informed opinions, regardless of the content.  I would welcome a discussion with anybody about something that concerns me only, if that person were informed.  After all, it's just a discussion, so what's the harm?  People say all kinds of things; I can choose to agree and to disagree with whatever I'd like.  Why should I restrict informed opinions just because the topic at hand happens to be of concern to me?  Heck, the person might share a new and interesting perspective and help me see things a new way - and I might, just _might _(gasp!) end up agreeing with him.


----------



## cuchuflete

Here's a short story that may give insight to my own reading of Residente's feelings.

In a seminar on Ancient Illustrated Manuscripts and Early Printing (Yeah, I dabbled in all sorts of weird stuff as a freshman...even geology!) one of my classmates began to talk, "I don't know much about art, but________".  

The professor signaled to him to cease speaking.

The professor spoke: "If you don't know much about art, then you may say 'I like that.' or 'I don't like that.', and then, for heavens sake, BE QUIET!!"

Seemed sensible then. 

Still does.


----------



## elroy

Completely agreed, Cuchuflete.  That anecdote nicely summarizes what I've been trying to get at in every one of my posts: the importance of being informed when expressing an opinion.


----------



## JimPojke

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> If you are not American do you feel that you have a right to express strong opinions about what the US should do domestically? Its laws about immigration? Taxation? Civil Rights?
> 
> *Yes, I do. Because it's just an OPINION, which I'm entitled to. And an opinion it's not telling people what they're supposed to do, just expressing what I think about it. If it's of my concern, well I'll decide if I want to lose my time thinking about something that "won't affect me" or not. Also, I do am an American since I was born in America, you don't need to be born in the US (or have parents with an US citizenship) to be one.  *
> 
> When you as a non-US resident express your views about US domestic policy do you ever fear that Americans might find that patronizing or down right insulting?
> 
> *No, because it's just my opinion. If they find it patronizing or insulting. Well, it's their problem. Life goes on. *
> 
> What makes people who don't live in the US and are not American have such strong opinions about issues the mostly affect people living in the USA and its nationals abroad?
> 
> *Sometimes, it affects MOSTLY us-citizens, but it also affects those foreigners, even indirectly.*
> 
> Has our culture penetrated yours so much that you think you're actually American or that you live here when you really don't?
> 
> *What can I say? I live in Mexico, we've got a lot of influence from the States around here. But not really culture, because we can't really talk about "culture" existing in the US. I don't think I am american, I KNOW I am, for the reasons I wrote above, but I don't (and won't ever) consider myself as a us-citizen.*


 


			
				Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> ...But a Saudi who tells me that women in the US shouldn't be allowed to vote get's a "mind your neck" from el Residente...


 
*What about people from the US telling the Saudis that women should be allowed to vote? It may be a right in the US, but totally out of context in Saudi Arabia. And it's something that doesn't directly affect you. *

*Going back to your "neighbor's kids" example. You wouldn't tell your neighbors to make their son do the dishes and not only their daughter. Would you?*



			
				Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> Here are some issues that I would feel *uncomfortable *with hearing opinions from people who don't live here:
> 
> What language we should speak.
> *Yes, like nobody says that: "Everybody speaks english, if not, they should".*
> 
> ...
> 
> Who we should allow to stay in this country
> *Of course, that's why the US makes Mexico ask for the US visa to some people from South America, just so they can visit us.*
> 
> How we should elect our president.
> *Certainly! It's not like the US is trying to impose their way to elect their president in another countries.*


----------



## Outsider

Looking at the most recent threads in this page and the previous one, I see five threads devoted to internal affairs of the United States, not counting this one:

Rights of Illegal Immigrants, started by Cuchuflete
Star Spangled Banner -- In Spanish, started by Bienvenidos
Should you study culture according to the colour of your skin or sexual preferences?, started by Heidita (this topic can be regarded as concerning all countries, though it begins with an American example)
Why don't Latinos learn English?, by CitoyenDuMonde
1st of May, "the day mothers will look after their own children", by Heidita

Three of them were started by Americans or by people who are living in the U.S. Only the two threads started by Heidita were not. 
None of the posters who started these threads asked non-Americans to refrain from commenting.

There's also another thread:

May Day, by Residente Calle 13

Residente specifically asked for opinions of Americans, and indeed that's all he's got so far.

I guess I still don't see the problem.


----------



## cuchuflete

Greetings Outsider,
I offer a clarification.  The thread about Rights of illegal immigrants was in no way limited to the US. It specifically invited comments about all foreros' countries.


----------



## Residente Calle 13

JimPojke said:
			
		

> *What about people from the US telling the Saudis that women should be allowed to vote? It may be a right in the US, but totally out of context in Saudi Arabia. And it's something that doesn't directly affect you. *
> 
> *Going back to your "neighbor's kids" example. You wouldn't tell your neighbors to make their son do the dishes and not only their daughter. Would you?*



http://forum.wordreference.com/showpost.php?p=905973&postcount=29


----------



## natasha2000

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> How do you feel about the elections in Italy or the current events of Nepal?
> 
> I'm aware of those events but feel it's *none of my business*. I don't think I have a right to tell Italians who they should elect. I don't think I have the right to tell the Nepalese what they should think about monarchy either.
> 
> I certainly don't think I have the right to tell Italy or Nepal that their taxes are too high or that they have too many immigrants.


 
I am sorry, but this kind of opinion is not characteristic for your gouvernment. They feel like being some sort of world police who has all right to tell the other gouvernments and countries what they should or not to do.
Was there any time in history that US troops weren't in some other country, trying to impose US or Western way of thinking and "democracy"?
So, if your country's gouvernment thinks that they have the right to do so, why shouldn't other people do the same with US domestic issues, even though I would say that "forigner's" concern is more US foreign politics rather than domestic one.
And of course, since USA is a country that minds everyones bussiness, other countries (people) are concerned about who will be the next US president, since it DOES has influence on our lives, too.

I would say that if US gouvernment minded more their own bussiness, the "foreigners" as you call them (us) would minded more their own bussiness, too.


----------



## Residente Calle 13

natasha2000 said:
			
		

> I am sorry, but this kind of opinion is not characteristic for your gouvernment. They feel like being some sort of world police who has all right to tell the other gouvernments and countries what they should or not to do.
> Was there any time in history that US troops weren't in some other country, trying to impose US or Western way of thinking and "democracy"?
> So, if your country's gouvernment thinks that they have the right to do so, why shouldn't other people do the same with US domestic issues, even though I would say that "forigner's" concern is more US foreign politics rather than domestic one.
> And of course, since USA is a country that minds everyones bussiness, other countries (people) are concerned about who will be the next US president, since it DOES has influence on our lives, too.
> 
> I would say that if US gouvernment minded more their own bussiness, the "foreigners" as you call them (us) would minded more their own bussiness, too.


But I'm not my government. I think the US government, like you, does *NOT *mind it's own business. And I think it's okay for you to say that because it's your concern. 

But I don't see why I should treat _*you *_according to how the Serbian government behaves or whether or not I agree with what Serbia has done in the past. I should treat you as a person.

That's what I ask. To be treated as a person. I'm not Bush or the US government. Just some dude from NY.


----------



## cuchuflete

Natasha,
When the US government did not intervene promptly in the civil war in what was formerly Yugoslavia, and other neighboring European countries did nothing, there were cries for US intervention to stop the bloodshed and ethnic cleansing
committed by all parties.

When the US did not intervene to stop the internal, domestic massacres in Ruanda, it was criticized, as it is criticized today for NOT intervening in Darfur.  Much of the world likes having the US play policeman, if and when it suits them.

When France intervenes in the affairs of its former colonies, the international silence is remarkable.  When Russia intervenes in the domestic affairs of Georgia and other nations, I don't hear your protests.

When England didn't like competition from US trade, it invaded the US and burned the capital city to the ground.

Personally, I would like to see the US 'mind its own business' more than it does. I would like all countries to do so.  Most countries do not, have never done so, and are unlikely to do so in the future.  Does China mind its own business in Tibet?
Do India and Pakistan mind their own business in Nepal?

Go ahead and comment all you like on US foreign policy and domestic affairs.  Just apply the same standards to all countries. Read a little history and find that most of it is about
nations meddling in the affairs of other nations, imposing their will, their economic and political systems, their religions.


----------



## natasha2000

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> But I'm not my government. I think the US government, like you, does *NOT *mind it's own business. And I think it's okay for you to say that because it's your concern.
> 
> But I don't see why I should treat _*you *_according to how the Serbian government behaves or whether or not I agree with what Serbia has done in the past. I should treat you as a person.
> 
> That's what I ask. To be treated as a person. I'm not Bush or the US government. Just some dude from NY.


 
Look, I have written this before reading all the posts in the thread. Having read what you've written, I uderstood you were referring to people in general, not only to people here in this forum.
I agree with you that everyone should be treated as a person in the first place, and I think I treat all foreros in this way. Even thought I have a lot of reasons to hate everything that even smells as US, since I experienced first economic and then physical minding our bussines by US gouvernment (economical embargo since 1992, and bombing 1999) I don't do that with people here, not with anyone I personally meet. As I have already said many times, generalizing is very dangerous thing. So as far as I am concerned, you, or any other US forero was, is and will be treated by me as a person in the first place, and if I have any opinion at all about any of the foreros, not only US, it is based on our conversatrions and on personality they have shown here in their posts, not on what their gouvernment does.
On the other hand, I also understand you and other US foreros, because I also experienced (and am experiencing from time to time) the judgement of me and my personality on the basis of what other Serbs did in the past.
But, then, this is the "cross" we have to bear....
Serbs like me have to put up with all kinds of opinions like "Serbs eat small children" because of some other Serbs (who did not even lived in Serbia!!!) and Serbian gouvernment of not so long ago...
And US citizens have to put up with all kinds of questions, thanks to their gouvernment behavior, whether they like it or not.
It's like Germans after WWII.... Even though many Germans were not nazi, they had to put up with the shame and blame and punishment of what other Germans did...


----------



## natasha2000

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Natasha,
> When the US government did not intervene promptly in the civil war in what was formerly Yugoslavia, and other neighboring European countries did nothing, there were cries for US intervention to stop the bloodshed and ethnic cleansing
> committed by all parties.
> 
> When the US did not intervene to stop the internal, domestic massacres in Ruanda, it was criticized, as it is criticized today for NOT intervening in Darfur. Much of the world likes having the US play policeman, if and when it suits them.
> 
> When France intervenes in the affairs of its former colonies, the international silence is remarkable. When Russia intervenes in the domestic affairs of Georgia and other nations, I don't hear your protests.
> 
> When England didn't like competition from US trade, it invaded the US and burned the capital city to the ground.
> 
> Personally, I would like to see the US 'mind its own business' more than it does. I would like all countries to do so. Most countries do not, have never done so, and are unlikely to do so in the future. Does China mind its own business in Tibet?
> Do India and Pakistan mind their own business in Nepal?
> 
> Go ahead and comment all you like on US foreign policy and domestic affairs. Just apply the same standards to all countries. Read a little history and find that most of it is about
> nations meddling in the affairs of other nations, imposing their will, their economic and political systems, their religions.


 
chuchuflete, I really do not like the tone you are addressing to me.
I think I did not deserve that. 
Read what I wrote to Residente.

As far as US intervention in my country, I have my own opinion on that. Military intervention never brought anything good, you know that perfectly well. But then, it is another subject.

I think that NO country in this world should intervene in the domestic affairs of other countries. The world comments the most the US interventions because US makes the biggest marketing of their own interventions. If France did the same,  I am sure that French intervention would be commented in the same way, too.
And I do read history, Chuchu.


----------



## Residente Calle 13

I'm well aware than in many places the US is on the shitlist. I don't have a problem with that. If a Cuban told me he hates America because of the embargo, I don't think that would be *rude *on their part. It's something that is *his business*. If they told me the national anthem should be sung in Spanish, I would tell them to mind their business. I know they have the right to say it, I just think it's *rude *for them to say it and believe I have the right to tell them to go stuff themselves.

I think you believe I'm mad at anti-Americanism in general. I'm not. I'm mad at people making* inappropriate *comments like the example I gave above and in many, many, too many, other posts.

Yes it's subjective. Opinions often are.


----------



## lizzeymac

natasha2000 said:
			
		

> Look, I have written this before reading all the posts in the thread. Having read what you've written, I uderstood you were referring to people in general, not only to people here in this forum.
> I agree with you that everyone should be treated as a person in the first place, and I think I treat all foreros in this way. Even thought I have a lot of reasons to hate everything that even smells as US, since I experienced first economic and then physical minding our bussines by US gouvernment (economical embargo since 1992, and bombing 1999) I don't do that with people here, not with anyone I personally meet. As I have already said many times, generalizing is very dangerous thing. So as far as I am concerned, you, or any other US forero was, is and will be treated by me as a person in the first place, and if I have any opinion at all about any of the foreros, not only US, it is based on our conversatrions and on personality they have shown here in their posts, not on what their gouvernment does.
> On the other hand, I also understand you and other US foreros, because I also experienced (and am experiencing from time to time) the judgement of me and my personality on the basis of what other Serbs did in the past.
> But, then, this is the "cross" we have to bear....
> Serbs like me have to put up with all kinds of opinions like "Serbs eat small children" because of some other Serbs (who did not even lived in Serbia!!!) and Serbian gouvernment of not so long ago...
> And US citizens have to put up with all kinds of questions, thanks to their gouvernment behavior, whether they like it or not.
> It's like Germans after WWII.... Even though many Germans were not nazi, they had to put up with the shame and blame and punishment of what other Germans did...



Excuse me - 
With the greatest respect, did I miss something?  Has someone in this forum accused you of eating children?  Said anything anti-Serbian?  Simply referring to the war in Yugoslavia is not a slur.  Your comment seems  inflammatory and again, with respect, a bit paranoid. I know knothing of what prejudces you may have experienced elsewhere but I just reread this thread & can"t see anyone abusing you.  Histrionics are a poor reply to a reasoned comment.

-


----------



## cuchuflete

> Was there any time in history that US troops weren't in some other country, trying to impose US or Western way of thinking and "democracy"?



Tone?  I addressed no 'tone' to anyone.  I presented facts.
Facts can make people feel uncomfortable.  You made an untrue assertion, quoted above. I replied.  

Residente believes some types of commentary about other nations' internal matters are 'rude', and I think a little differently.   Statements about international policy and action
seem acceptable to all, and debate involves different viewpoints.


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## natasha2000

lizzeymac said:
			
		

> Excuse me -
> With the greatest respect, did I miss something? Has someone in this forum accused you of eating children? Said anything anti-Serbian? Simply referring to the war in Yugoslavia is not a slur. Your comment seems inflammatory and again, with respect, a bit paranoid. I know knothing of what prejudces you may have experienced elsewhere but I just reread this thread & can"t see anyone abusing you. Histrionics are a poor reply to a reasoned comment.
> 
> -


 
Read my post again, please. Yo see what you want to see, not what is written.
I said that I often perceive comments like that IN GENERAL, not in this forum. I would even say that I have never been treated like this in this forum, and I am very glad because of this.
And at the end, to all of you US citizens, read again my posts, I do understand you. I am not attacking you. As a matter of fact, in many of these anti-american posts, I intervened defending you, not attacking you.
READ WHAT IS WRITTEN, NOT WHAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO SEE.


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## natasha2000

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Tone? I addressed no 'tone' to anyone. I presented facts.
> Facts can make people feel uncomfortable. You made an untrue assertion, quoted above. I replied.
> 
> Residente believes some types of commentary about other nations' internal matters are 'rude', and I think a little differently. Statements about international policy and action
> seem acceptable to all, and debate involves different viewpoints.


 
Untrue?
I wouldn't say that.
US gouvenment puts it nose and fingers everywhere where there is some aconomical or political interest. Look all the Latinoamerican countries with their dictators put on and put away by various US gouvernements or presidents... And if you think US helped in some way in my country, you are very wrong. Just count so called "collateral damages" they did there!
For Crist sake, they bombed the very same Albanian refugees they were supposed to defend!!!
But this is another subject. The subject of this thread is not US gouvernment but the US foreros of this forum. 
And I did not like your recommendation to me to read history. I saw it as a will to hurt someones feelings, not to argue any facts.
Sorry, this is MY point of view on your comment.


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## cuchuflete

Natasha said:
			
		

> READ WHAT IS WRITTEN, NOT WHAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO SEE.





> if you think US helped in some way in my country


 I made absolutely* no comment *about whether the US helped.  Here is every word I wrote that had any reference to your part of the world:

"When the US government did not intervene promptly in the civil war in what was formerly Yugoslavia, and other neighboring European countries did nothing, there were cries for US intervention to stop the bloodshed and ethnic cleansing
 committed by all parties."

I didn't characterize US action or US inaction as helpful.  You have chosen to "see what you want to see, not what is written."


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## natasha2000

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> I think you believe I'm mad at anti-Americanism in general. quote]
> 
> Not at all. With your second post I had it all very clear. And I said I think you are right.
> Maybe my English is not so good to be understood as I wanted.
> Sorry.


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## natasha2000

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> I made absolutely* no comment *about whether the US helped. Here is every word I wrote that had any reference to your part of the world:
> 
> "When the US government did not intervene promptly in the civil war in what was formerly Yugoslavia, and other neighboring European countries did nothing, there were cries for US intervention to stop the bloodshed and ethnic cleansing
> committed by all parties."
> 
> I didn't characterize US action or US inaction as helpful. You have chosen to "see what you want to see, not what is written."


 
My comment on whether US helped or not was not a reply to anything you said. It was just my opinion.

Sorry if it looked like that.
As I said, maybe my English is not at the level to be understood as I wanted.


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## cuchuflete

Trying to drift back to the original topic, I agree with some things my government and country do at home and abroad.
Other actions by my government make me sad, ashamed, embarassed, and lead me to actively oppose its policies.  I think the same may be said by most thoughtful people in most countries.

I welcome criticism (and even the rare word of praise) of my place by those who live elsewhere.  It challenges me to see things from a different perspective, and maybe learn something new.  Comments by people from somewhere else are often useful.  When they are not, I feel no insult.  We can disagree about policies, social habits, eating habits---those in the US are atrocious--or anything else.

If I were to comment on the preference of Paraguayans for cold mate, compared with the Argentine preference for hot mate, and declare one to be nutritionally or morally better than the other, that would be pretty silly.  It wouldn't be useful to anyone.  Would it be rude?  Maybe, maybe not.
It would certainly not have any effect, harmful or beneficial, on Paraguayans or Argentines...but I would probably annoy one group or another.  

When Europeans complain about the miserable quality of the US film and TV production industry, whose products they watch voluntarily, I used to be annoyed.  Now I just smile.  It's neither rude nor useful commentary.  It's opinion.


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## timpeac

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> When Europeans complain about the miserable quality of the US film and TV production industry, whose products they watch voluntarily, I used to be annoyed. Now I just smile. It's neither rude nor useful commentary. It's opinion.


 
This is an interesting example. On the one hand you could view the output of Hollywood (say) as a purely US affair, and perhaps criticism of a film would annoy Residente and others; after all just don't watch the films if you don't like them.

However, we could get away from this border-centric point of view, and consider that Hollywood is the main supplier of western films. It invests hugely in advertising all round the world and because of this people will go and see a lavish hollywood production in their local movie theater in Wisconsin in preference to a lower budget local production in just the same way people in Liverpool in England will do the same over and above a home-grown product. The best English actors are attracted to Hollywood just as the best Floridian ones are. So, do the English have less right to voice an opinion on the quality of Hollywood productions than an Alaskan? Is Hollywood an intrinsically American thing than means an Alaskan is more in touch with it than a Frenchman? Or is it rather that there is a part of the world on the south-western coast of the North American continent which makes a popular product, which will therefore be the subject for criticism and or praise the world over?

Similarly, if the US economy is such that it produces a huge mass of sit-coms and light small-screen entertainment at a cost which beats in quality hands down anything a smaller country could produce for the same budget, is it surprising that the Bulgarians are as au-fait with the comings and goings in knots landing as the citizens of Key west? Is either more entitled to complain about the shaky sets and fierce hair-dos?

My point is that I think it is naive to believe that in the modern world economy there is any product or decision by the US that doesn't in some way effect the rest of the world (and just to be clear - although I took what I saw as a good example from Cuchuflete, I am in no way saying he has such a naive belief - I think I could have made a similar case for almost any example). I also think that if we could think of ourselves a bit more as citizens of the world rather than compartmentalised into a political structure then this discussion would be more about how annoying it is when people talk about things they don't know about rather than how annoying it is for someone born outside one country to voice an opinion on what is going on inside that country.

Over and above that, I would certainly like to say that as long as I have something relevant to say, and if the fancy takes me, I fully intend to make comment on the domestic situation of other countries in this forum. I would also encourage other nationalities to do the same about my country. One of the things I like the most about these forums is the new perspective I have been given by new and geographically distant people on what I thought were old and local issues.


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## la reine victoria

> Originally posted by *Timpeac*
> I also think that if we could think of ourselves a bit more as citizens of the world . . . .


 
Not much hope of that with the average Brit, Tim.  The majority are fighting against being classed as citizens of Europe.  


LRV


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## natasha2000

Outsider said:
			
		

> Looking at the most recent threads in this page and the previous one, I see five threads devoted to internal affairs of the United States, not counting this one:
> 
> Rights of Illegal Immigrants, started by Cuchuflete
> Star Spangled Banner -- In Spanish, started by Bienvenidos
> Should you study culture according to the colour of your skin or sexual preferences?, started by Heidita (this topic can be regarded as concerning all countries, though it begins with an American example)
> Why don't Latinos learn English?, by CitoyenDuMonde
> 1st of May, "the day mothers will look after their own children", by Heidita
> 
> Three of them were started by Americans or by people who are living in the U.S. Only the two threads started by Heidita were not.
> None of the posters who started these threads asked non-Americans to refrain from commenting.
> 
> There's also another thread:
> 
> May Day, by Residente Calle 13
> 
> Residente specifically asked for opinions of Americans, and indeed that's all he's got so far.
> 
> I guess I still don't see the problem.


 
Trying to drift back to the original topic..... 

According to this, and I also have the strong feeling that Americans are intrigued to hear what others think about them, but when they get the answers they did not expect, they get angry... I would call that rather childish behaviour...

Timpaec said:


> My point is that I think it is naive to believe that in the modern world economy there is any product or decision by the US that doesn't in some way effect the rest of the world. I also think that if we could think of ourselves a bit more as citizens of the world rather than compartmentalised into a political structure then this discussion would be more about how annoying it is when people talk about things they don't know about rather than how annoying it is for someone born outside one country to voice an opinion on what is going on inside that country.


And I completely agree with him. I guess he knew to put together in a right way what I was trying to say, but was misunderstood at the end.

And at the end, reading all the posts here, sometimes it really gets a little bit confusing. What is exactly that bothers you, Residente? First, you complain about the opinions non-US citizens give about your country. When people say that a lot of US domestic affairs have influence on the world economy and life in general, you say something like this:



> But I'm not my government. I think the US government, like you, does *NOT *mind it's own business. And I think it's okay for you to say that because it's your concern.
> But I don't see why I should treat _*you *_according to how the Serbian government behaves or whether or not I agree with what Serbia has done in the past. I should treat you as a person.
> That's what I ask. To be treated as a person. I'm not Bush or the US government. Just some dude from NY.


 
This was the first time you say that your complain is not about criticizing your country politics, but you and other US foreros personally, asking to be treated as a person, and not be seen through the acts of your gouvernment.

I see this rather ambiguous. Don't you?


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## Residente Calle 13

Natasha, I said I didn't mind people criticizing the US government_ per se_ for the first time, in French, in post #34. I said it again in post #36, #49, #54, #56, #61, #63, #65, to you in post #81 and again in #85.

I don't see the ambiguity in wanting to be treated as person, not mind and even ask for opinions that are about issues that concern us all, and express dismay at the constant criticism from people who chime on issues that I feel are none of their business.

If you can further elaborate on your question, I would be glad to answer it.


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## fenixpollo

Bastoune said:
			
		

> Meanwhile, the U.S. is inundated by tons of illegals and guess what? If they're expelled, there are millions of people who do things the LEGAL WAY from Europe, Africa and Asia who are more than willing to take their place and without making everyone else have to cater to their language and culture in the process.


 Not true. There are millions who would LIKE to do things the legal way, but are refused visas by the U.S. Government. The government doesn't say to all of the Africans who want visas "Oh, I'm sorry, but there are already 9 million Mexicans and Central Americans who have entered illegally and taken your jobs, so you can't come in." The U.S. Government is the one that sets the limits on how many non-residents can enter the country each year, and for what reasons. If you'd like more people from outside Latin America to be able to emigrate to the U.S., tell the government to raise their quotas -- don't blame the illegal immigrants. If the government did raise the quotas, we wouldn't have as many "illegal" immigrants, and this whole debate would be less critical and heated. 





			
				Residente said:
			
		

> I personally find it offensive that people from other countries express their views on immigration or taxation.... Like I said, if an Italian made comments about how Bush did not win the popular vote in the first election, I think that's fine. What I would not appreciate is an Italian saying that our President was a dictator for four years.


So, people who are not U.S. residents are allowed to discuss the fact about internal U.S. issues, but not allowed to express their opinions about them? Bull.  And since when is immigration an "internal" issue, anyway?

U.S. society has free speech at its core.  That you consider it "rude" to opine on certain issues and not others is illogical.  One either speaks freely or not, and there's no way to draw a line between "acceptable" and "unacceptable" topics to express one's opinion about.  I suppose it's your right to get offended by the opinions of non-residents of 13th Street, but it's still our right to express them and to not give a rat's ass that you're offended.  It's a free country, after all.

Saludos cordiales.


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## Residente Calle 13

fenixpollo said:
			
		

> U.S. society has free speech at its core.  That you consider it "rude" to opine on certain issues and not others is illogical.



It may be illogical but you said it yourself: I have the right to say it.


I never said people don't have a right to an opinion. I have said the opposite too many times to count. Please don't put words in my mouth. I find that rude as well.


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## natasha2000

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> Natasha, I said I didn't mind people criticizing the US government_ per se_ for the first time, in French, in post #34. I said it again in post #36, #49, #54, #56, #61, #63, #65, to you in post #81 and again in #85.
> 
> I don't see the ambiguity in wanting to be treated as person, not mind and even ask for opinions that are about issues that concern us all, and express dismay at the constant criticism from people who chime on issues that I feel are none of their business.
> 
> If you can further elaborate on your question, I would be glad to answer it.


 
Reading your first post, I had an impression that you did mind criticizm towards your country. That's all.

What i don't understand is what is that you mind? Other people criticizing your country/gouvernment, or cirticizing you and other US citizens as persons seen through the prism of the US gouvernment acting?

If your complain is the first one, then, many people have alredy answered you - everyone is entitled to have their opinion. This forum is about this - to express our opinion on the issues we have the opinion about. If I have the opinion on something, I have the right to express it here in this forum. And US internal politics does have the influence on the world. This is in short what people told.
If it is the other one... I really did not see, or if I did, then it was very rare case, that any other forero judged some US forero only through the acts of the US gouvernment. In general I find this forum and the majority of its participants very open minded and educated people. Sometimes it happens that appears out of the blue someone ill minded, but then the problem is very quickly solved by our mods.

Hope this clears a little bit my question.
Saludos,
N.


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## natasha2000

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> It may be illogical but you said it yourself: I have the right to say it.
> *I never said people don't have a right to an opinion. I have said the opposite too many times to count.* Please don't put words in my mouth. I find that rude as well.


 
Exactly...
I do know since I had the chance to see your other posts...

That is precisely why I am so surprised by this post of yours...
¿Qué mosca te ha picado hoy?


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## Residente Calle 13

natasha2000 said:
			
		

> What i don't understand is what is that you mind?



I don't know. Do you understand?

Todo el mundo tiene el derecho a opinar. Algunas opiniones son muestras, según mi manera de pensar, de *mala educación*.

Si yo le digo a una mujer desconocida en la calle : 

«Me gusta su cartera.»

«Tienes unas tetas preciosas.»

Uno de estos comentarios es vulgar, a mi manera de ver las cosas, por que viola la privacidad de una persona. Si lo dirigiera a más de una mujer o a un país entero fuera igual de vulgar. Quizá yo piense que tenga el derecho a comentar lo que me da la gana pero esto no quiere decir que esté bien.

No voy a entrar en el tema legal pero no creo esté mal por el hecho de que se pueda considerar illegal o la violación de una regla. ¿O es que nos hemos vuelto todos locos?

Algunos comentarios yo considero inapropiados. Ya he dicho más de un par de veces cuáles son.


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## Residente Calle 13

natasha2000 said:
			
		

> Exactly...
> I do know since I had the chance to see your other posts...
> 
> That is precisely why I am so surprised by this post of yours...
> ¿Qué mosca te ha picado hoy?



¿Cuál post te sorprende, Natasha?


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## fenixpollo

Residente said:
			
		

> I never said people don't have a right to an opinion. I have said the opposite too many times to count. Please don't put words in my mouth. I find that rude as well.


 I never accused you of denying others' right to *have* an opinion; but it seems to me that in this thread, you have said repeatedly that people shouldn't *express* their opinion -- according to certain arbitrary criteria that you established.


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## Residente Calle 13

fenixpollo said:
			
		

> I never accused you of denying others' right to *have* an opinion; but it seems to me that in this thread, you have said repeatedly that people shouldn't *express* their opinion -- according to certain arbitrary criteria that you established.



Well, in a way.

People say things like "If you didn't vote, don't complain about Bush." Does that mean I, who didn't vote, don't have a constitutional right to complain? Of course not! But the people who tell me : "If you didn't vote, don't complain about Bush." have a constitutional right to complain about my voter apathy and perhaps even a moral right.

My criteria is arbitrary. There is a line but it isn't very clear. But I don't think that's necessarily bad or exclusive to Residente Calle 13. Look around at different sets of criteria. How consistent are they?

Look at my sig! I'm full of contradictions and say things that are not logical. But people aren't always logical. Let he without sin...


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## fenixpollo

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> But people aren't always logical. Let he without sin...


 Whoah... Hey, now.... let's not get off topic and start discussing religion.  

Seriously, your humility is a breath of fresh air, especially considering that you're an American.  Oops!  Did I go too far and offend someone?


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## Residente Calle 13

fenixpollo said:
			
		

> Whoah... Hey, now.... let's not get off topic and start discussing religion.
> 
> Seriously, your humility is a breath of fresh air, especially considering that you're an American.  Oops!  Did I go too far and offend someone?



I'm not surprised that people are having a hard time figuring out just what the hell I'm trying to say because it's not something that's easy to grapple with. Just think about how much trouble we have with deciding what's *obscene*. Not just here, everywhere.

But I think that in a civil society, and this forum is a civil society, we should talk about what's proper. A great deal of the rules we follow are not covered by the WR rules. We kind of decide, collectively, what's off-base and what's not.

I think the view here is that any issue is game not matter where you're from or where you live. I can either live with that or find another place to play, right?

Fortunately the view here is also that I have the right to complain about people's rights. So I might stay.


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## maxiogee

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> one of my classmates began to talk, "I don't know much about art, but________".
> The professor signaled to him to cease speaking.
> The professor spoke: "If you don't know much about art, then you may say 'I like that.' or 'I don't like that.', and then, for heavens sake, BE QUIET!!"



That professor was applying the well-known, but little appreciated, quotation from Wittgenstein… *
"Whereof we do not know, thereof we cannot speak."

Would that many here would read and understand.
*


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## natasha2000

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> ¿Cuál post te sorprende, Natasha?


 
The first one. Well, I wanted to say, I am surprised that YOU put up this question and in the way you did... 
And the way could be described like this, as Fenixpollo said:


> but it seems to me that in this thread, you have said repeatedly that people shouldn't *express* their opinion -- according to certain arbitrary criteria that you established.


----------



## natasha2000

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> Fortunately the view here is also that I have the right to complain about people's rights. So I might stay.


 
I hope that you are not so mad that you will leave us. Unlike some other foreros/mods here , you speak and confront but you never personally offend, look down or give a selfcentered show-off, and that is what is very much appreciated here and everywhere...
At the end, all of us also have right to be wrong, or to have a bad day, don't we?


----------

