# un immaginario classico



## anglomania1

Hi there, 
I'm translating an article about wine tasting and one of the wines is described thus:

In bocca è fresco e fine ma nel ricordo resta sempre quell’odore di madia, che lo colloca in *un immagina- rio classico*.

What exactly is "un immaginario classico"? I've heard of "immaginario collettivo"! But it's not the same thing
Is it referring to something "of old", memories linked to times gone by (seeing that "madia" is an old-fashioned object)?
I thought of putting:
It is fresh and elegant on the palate, but what lingers in the memory is that odour of a kneading trough, which takes you back to bygone times.

Any comments or suggestions?
Thanks 
Anglo


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## Benzene

_*Hello anglo!*

I re-arrange the original text because the phrase as is written, in my opinion, is unnatural/forced. 

"In bocca è fresco e fine ma nel ricordo resta sempre quell’odore di pane fragrante e la sfera dell’immaginazione lo riconosce attraverso i miti e leggende" = "taste is fresh and fine but in the memory there is always the smell of baked bread and imagination recognizes it through myths and legends.

Please, take my attempt with pliers!

Bye,

*Benzene*_


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## sorry66

Well, they're obviously trying to use a play-on-words 'rio classico'.
You can get a 'rio alto classico' merlot.
So maybe the wine evokes an imaginary merlot or Rio di Janeiro?!!


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## Mary49

sorry66 said:


> Well, they're obviously trying to use a play-on-words 'rio classico'.
> You can get a 'rio alto classico' merlot.
> So maybe the wine evokes an imaginary merlot or Rio di Janeiro?!!


Hi sorry66,
the word is "*immaginario*", not "immagina - rio". The hyphen is produced by the word processor. Nothing to do with "rio" or "Rio de Janeiro"...


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## sorry66

I know the word is 'immaginario', but I thought the author had deliberately split the word as some kind of joke.


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## Odysseus54

sorry66 said:


> I know the word is 'immaginario', but I thought the author had deliberately split the word as some kind of joke.



Di nefandezze i sommelier ne scrivono tante, ma credo/spero che ti stia sbagliando  

Let me give it a free-hand try : ".. but in the end what lingers on is a fragrance reminiscent of a bread pantry, which sets this wine right there among  (makes this wine a good companion to) our most quintessential dreams of home and hearth."


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## sorry66

_la sfera dell’immaginazione lo riconosce attraverso i miti e leggende - Benzene_

_which sets this wine right there among our most quintessential dreams of home and hearth - Odysseus (usually 'hearth and home')_

_"che lo colloca in *un immagina- rio classico*" _

These are poetic but I don't understand the link with 'un immaginario classico'


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## Odysseus54

The 'immaginario' is that place in your head where you keep all the things that are important for you, that you are afraid of, that you aspire to etc.  Mom, a Ferrari, a pretty and reassuring wife in your old country house, a mistress in Rimini, soccer, stuff like that.  Think of those infamous commercials on TV with Banderas pretending that he is grinding wheat in an oil mill while he is conversing with a chicken.  When it's 'classico' it means that it's your most traditional version of it.  Polenta, not couscous.


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## sorry66

I'm not sure I've seen those Banderas adverts?!

So we're talking about the 'unconscious' (from WordRef). The longings/fears deep in one's psyche? Or just fantasies?

Maybe you could say 'what lingers on in the memory is that smell of fresh dough / straight from the realm of homely fantasy / which conjures up nostalgia for all that is homely'?

I've never tasted the wine but part of me wants to say: 'what lingers on in the memory is that homely smell of freshly-baked bread'.


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## Odysseus54

Not so much the uncoscious, as the whole set of commonplace desires, fears, etc. that define your culture.   And it is true that the fixed expression is 'immaginario collettivo'.  But 'immaginario classico' is not that much of an invention.


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## Lorena1970

Odysseus54 said:


> The 'immaginario' is that place in your head where you keep all the things that are important for you, that you are afraid of, that you aspire to etc.  Mom, a Ferrari, a pretty and reassuring wife in your old country house, a mistress in Rimini, soccer, stuff like that.  Think of those infamous commercials on TV with Banderas pretending that he is grinding wheat in an oil mill while he is conversing with a chicken.  When it's 'classico' it means that it's your most traditional version of it.  Polenta, not couscous.



I agree, I would say that "classico" here means "tradizionale". So here it is my version of Ody sentence, which I tried to simplify and make more sharpen:
_"*.. but in the end what lingers on is a fragrance reminiscent of a bread pantry* *and taste of traditions*_" ("taste" as you all know means also experience et al)
"una fragranza che richiama alla mente/ricorda la madia e il sapore/l'esperienza delle tradizioni"

Do you think it works? Just a suggestion, you decide


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## sorry66

To Lorena
_*"*and taste of traditions" _'and the taste of tradition'
or
'and good homely/traditional values'

The idea of a bread pantry is quite quaint, I don't know if people ever devoted a whole pantry to bread, but it fits here.


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## Odysseus54

sorry66 said:


> To Lorena
> _*"*and taste of traditions" _'and the taste of tradition'
> or
> 'and good homely/traditional values'
> 
> The idea of a bread pantry is quite quaint, I don't know if people ever devoted a whole pantry to bread, but it fits here.



A 'madia' is a specialized country furniture unit that the Collins translates as 'chest for the making and storage of bread'.  Its original function goes back to when farmers used to bake their own bread once or twice a week. Nowadays it is mostly an Interior Design prop.


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## Lorena1970

sorry66 said:


> _*"*and taste of traditions" _'and the taste of tradition'



Yes of course, forgotten! Thank you!


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## anglomania1

Thanks everyone!
The sentence is a bit of a nightmare!
I confirm that the hyphen is NOT deliberate and is just the word processor, it should be "immaginario".
So am I right in thinking that the phrase "immaginario classico" does not exist?
And it is a play on "immaginario collettivo"?
So any comments on my original sentence - adding the term "bread pantry"?:
but what lingers in the memory is that odour of a bread pantry, which takes you back to bygone times.

Does the last part of the sentence not fit in with the idea of tradition?
Thanks, 
Anglo


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## sorry66

To me 'bygone times' suggest times that have been and gone and not a tangible tradition within living memory. 
I suppose it's a matter of interpretation, though ..... maybe it does suggest the requisite level of nostalgia and the 'immaginario collettivo' as suggested by Odysseus.


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## anglomania1

sorry66 said:


> To me 'bygone times' suggest times that have been and gone and not a tangible tradition within living memory.


Hi sorry66, 
I see what you mean, maybe I should put "days of old" or "olden times" or simply "in the past! 
Anglo


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## Odysseus54

anglomania1 said:


> Thanks everyone!
> The sentence is a bit of a nightmare!
> I confirm that the hyphen is NOT deliberate and is just the word processor, it should be "immaginario".
> So am I right in thinking that the phrase "immaginario classico" does not exist?
> And it is a play on "immaginario collettivo"?



I wouldn't say it doesn't exist - the term 'immaginario' as a noun is used by itself or modified freely with adjectives, adverbs etc.

"L'immaginario maschile/femmiile"

"L'immaginario giovanile"

etc.


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## alicip

Hi Anglo. Hi all.
It seems that even coffee and places might be connected with this "immaginario classico":
Il caffè tipico *dell'immaginario classico*, esotico, agrumato, dal colore e dal sapore morbidamente tostato sposa la tradizione dell'espresso italiano per creare un caffè unico, tradizionale e irrinunciabile.
Ottimo esordio solista per Battistini, ci regala un disco sincero, quasi fosse registrato durante una jam session tra amici. Godetevelo chiudendo gli occhi, vi sembrerà di essere tornati indietro negli anni ’60 in quell’America meno conosciuta, lontana *dall’immaginario classico*, ma sicuramente più vera e profonda.

That said, to me this "immaginario classico" could mean something on the lines of "our common idea/knowledge about X" or "our common image/memory of X". 
As for "madia" I agree with Ody.  I believe the best you can get would be *"bread (storage) cupboard"*. Here's a picture of it:


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## Lorena1970

anglomania1 said:


> "days of old" or "olden times"



Not sure that "days of old" (vecchi tempi) works. "Classico" in Italian has a different meaning from "dei vecchi tempi". "Classico" recalls (maybe already said?) the idea of an "ensemble" of features which at same time identify a certain taste. For instance: cachemire + solid wood furnitures / modern design furnitures + understated behavior + quiet happiness + fine ceramics + silver/silver plate cutleries + crostata with preserve + linen blankets + plain white soft towels + ........ Put all that together and you will have, more or less, a picture with a classic flavour.


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## sorry66

The evolution of the bread bin! 
(As far as I know, this is how people stored their bread and still do - of course, it would have been different in the country)
(Strictly speaking, the second and third images are bread boxes)

I'm not sure that the whole cupboard in your image, alicip, is for bread.
In your link, I can't see it and the other images suggest that the top part with the pull-up lid is the bit for bread.

I'd still go with 'bread pantry' or 'bread larder' or maybe even 'bread box' for a larger storage unit.

Edit: In fact, your image looks like a 'bread chest'. However, it could simply be called a 'bread cupboard'.

In fact 'bread cupboard'  brings up images of bread bins as well as larger cupboards (like yours alicip)

https://www.google.it/search?biw=1152&bih=620&noj=1&tbm=isch&sa=1&q="bread+cupboard"&oq="bread+cupboard"&gs_l=img.3..0i30.700639.702269.0.702876.8.8.0.0.0.0.129.600.6j2.8.0....0...1c.1.64.img..7.1.68.Ctv8epeunpo#imgrc=b00o5rguKAXWgM:





The bread cupboard has a vent in the door (presumably to keep the bread in the right condition)


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## alicip

@sorry66 :
*Madia* was a piece of furniture used during the High Renaissance period. It stored food and dishes. The madia was a service piece, meaning it was not made for looks, it was made to hold objects and used for a purpose. It would usually be found in the kitchen, not in an open area.
In Italy, the *Madia* was also a kitchen piece that was used to make bread. *The Madia had two parts, the first was a cupboard bottom that could be used to store items. *The top part could be lifted up. The dough would be placed in the top portion where it could rise, and then would be baked.
The picture I put above is a "madia". Have a look here too: *"madia pane"*. We are talking about the entire piece of furniture not only about the "kneading trough/dough tray" part.
Try this *image*.
*madia*
s.f. (Arred)
1 (credenza) kitchen cupboard.
2 (mobile per impastare il pane) kneading trough, (Am) dough tray.


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## sorry66

Maybe the 'madia' (with its two parts) is an item of furniture specific to Italy.
'Kitchen cupboard' is too vague, even saying a 'dresser' or a 'buffet' would give you a better idea.
I still think 'bread cupboard' or 'bread chest' is closest. Pantries are small rooms and larders are almost as large.


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## alicip

> I still think '*bread cupboard*' or 'bread chest' is closest.


The same thing I said in my post #19. 
Found this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pie_safe but it's not the same thing. I like "bread cupboard".


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## sorry66

I didn't pay attention to the fact that 'storage' was in brackets, which to my mind is superfluous.
So 'bread cupboard' it is!


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## anglomania1

Hi everyone and thanks for your very exhaustive answers - with images, too!!
I definitely think "bread cupboard " is the best solution for "madia", I'd personally never heard of it and I'm not sure if many natives will actually know what it really is, but it's definitely the right term.
As for the "immaginario classico", I'm still at a loss on how to translate it - or should I even cut it out and just put "a fragrance reminiscent of a bread cupboard"??
To recap, the sentence is:
In bocca è fresco e fine ma nel ricordo resta sempre quell’odore di madia, che lo colloca in *un immaginario classico*.

I understand Lorena's explanation of "the idea of an "ensemble" of features which at same time identify a certain taste" and alicip's "our common idea/knowledge about X" or "our common image/memory of X"
but my sentence doesn't actually specify anything other than the bread cupboard (there is no X or certain taste mentioned!!).
I like sorry66's "'what lingers on in the memory is that homely smell of freshly-baked bread' "

Any comments?
thanks,
Anglo


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## ohbice

anglomania1 said:


> In bocca è fresco e fine ma nel ricordo resta sempre quell’odore di madia, che lo colloca in *un immaginario classico*.


Solidarizzo con te, anglomania. Ho sfogliato qualche rivista che parla di vino, e ho letto qualche guida. Ma scritti così male mai. "...nel ricordo resta sempre quell'odore di madia" mi fa pensare a cose vecchie e ammuffite... parole sbagliate, similitudini sbagliate.
"...in un immaginario classico" a mio parere significa che, in uno schema che prevede classico e moderno, il vino in questione si pone nella linea della tradizione, non è particolarmente innovativo. Se adesso poi mi dici che anche questo vino ha un punteggio di 98/100 mi arrabbio, dalla descrizione penserei al massimo a un 54/100.


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## anglomania1

Grazie  ohbice, 
as Paulfromitaly is my witness - I really do gets lots of these!!
The more I read these comments, the more I want to just leave out the last bit - so I think I need to bite the bullet and just do it.
I've not seen any translation of immaginario classico that I'm comfortable with - though looking back at the original Italian, I don't know why I worry so much!!


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## Lorena1970

I think the Italian is the problem.
"Immaginario classico" doesn't make much sense, honestly. 
"That smell of bread cupboard which makes it recall a world of traditions"

How is it?


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## london calling

Know what? I think I'd forget about the bread cupboard and just talk about the way it conjures up memories of freshly-baked bread (as sorry suggests).

Very, very loosely:

It is fresh and refined on the palate but what lingers in the mind is the fragrant, freshly-baked bread of (our) tradition.


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## MR1492

Hi anglo!

As Oliver used to say to Stan, "This is another fine mess you gotten us into."

My two cents.  I think an English speaking audience would immediately know and understand breadbox as suggested above several times could be the best translation of _madia_.  Personally, I don't know of an English word which is a translation of _madia _which evokes the same feelings but breadbox might do the trick (even though they aren't really the same thing.)

I might be tempted to use aroma to describe the bread.  My difficulty is that the English terms are so similar.  Saying "...the nostalgic aroma of fresh-baked bread in the breadbox..." just doesn't sound right.  

Good luck, anglo.

Phil


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