# All South Asian languages: jii



## panjabigator

In Hindi/Urdu and Panjabi, there is a respective word "jii" which is added on to the end of a name for respect.  Does this exist in Bengali and Gujarati?


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## linguist786

Gujarati - no.


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## panjabigator

Is there any equivalent term?


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## linguist786

panjabigator said:
			
		

> Is there any equivalent term?


I think "saheb"/"saab" would be one - that's also used in Urdu/Hindi


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## panjabigator

Do you use the word miyaa in Gujarati?  Would your mother and father address each other as miya/biwi?


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## Confused Linguist

Bengali - no


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## panjabigator

I didnt think any of the other ones used them.  Thanks!


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## panjabigator

I've revived this thread to find out if the affirmative <jii> exists in other South Asian languages, such as Sindhi, Marathi, etc.


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## Illuminatus

It does not exist in Marathi, as far as I know. As I have explained before, I have been brought up in Hindi speaking areas and my knowledge of Hindi is much more superior to my knowledge of Marathi (despite it being my mother tongue), so I often mix words


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## BP.

PG, I've never heard _jee_ being spoken in Urdu as a mark of respect, only _saaHab_, _janaab _etc. _Mia.n_ is more for those who're not elder or who work under/with you. E.g. I'm called BP _mia.n_ at home, since calling or alluding to somebody by their name is somehow rude.


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## Illuminatus

Sorry, but I couldn't restrain myself.

It was very amusing visualizing someone saying Ajee Belligerent Pacifist Miaa.n!


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## BP.

_ajee_ and _amaa.n_ are two words that I've heard used, but sadly no _jee_!


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## lcfatima

My MIL is ammi-ji, also I have heard abu jee (not in my family but I have heard it with others). 

My mia.n is also mia.n at home, but I have only heard it in outside the mia.n/bivi context said in jest, such as calling the former president Musharraf Mia.n.


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## panjabigator

Ah, so perhaps this could be a distinguishing point between Hindi/Urdu.  Formal Urdu typically uses <jii> as a affirmative response and not as a marker of respect.  

<ajii BP miyaa.n, sunte hai.n>?   Would you agree with that?


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## Lugubert

linguist786 said:


> I think "saheb"/"saab" would be one - that's also used in Urdu/Hindi


I think "saheb"/"saab" works in Panjabi (regional tonal difference?). Being a Swede, I'm sligthly proud that Saab is a term of respect.


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## BP.

PG, I'd totally love to be called like that! But we know that's going to happen lesser and lesser down the road.

Icf, as I understand your Urdu has more Hindi influence than mine. I can never imagine saying _am-mi/ab-bu jee_. It will always be _jaan_.


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## panjabigator

It could very well be the influence of Panjabi too.  I believe that <jii> is used the same way in Pakistani Panjabi.


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## Faylasoof

The only time we use 'jii' is when I wish to be polite in saying 'yes' (jiihaaN) or 'no' (jiinaheeN). Saying 'jii' above with a slight change of intonation can significantly change the meaning from agreement to disagreement, even to sarcasm!! Saying 'jii' alone with these intonation changes can also be used for similar effect.


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## Cilquiestsuens

I would also think that it is a  Punjabi influence in Urdu....

In the Urdu spoken in big cities of Punjab (Islamabad or Lahore), I've heard a lot of jee's used as a mark of respect for women.... aamra jii, bhaabii jii, auntie jii, aabidaa ji.... etc...


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## lcfatima

Yes Punjabi Pakistanis do say that, but I don't think that sounds odd for Urdu speaking families.

I don't think it is Hindi, I have studied Hindi but never been in a household context with Hindi speakers.

My in-laws are also from U.P., mother in law from Lucknow specifically, and moved to Pakistani Punjab long after partition for marriage as an adult...I think perhaps it is just family to family people may say different things. 

In Punjabi influenced Urdu "jee" seems to be used more profusely, though.

I was thinking about this, lots of "accha jee?" "Theek hai jee," and "chalo jee" (sort of to change the subject, not meaning "let's go") in Punjab.

And then of course Urdu speakers say Jee Haan, Jee nahin, and Punjabis say haanjee (sometimes sounds almost like hanjee).

Though jee could be attached to a familiar term, I can't imagine it being added to a name, though.


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## Lugubert

lcfatima said:


> I don't think it is Hindi
> ...
> Though jee could be attached to a familiar term, I can't imagine it being added to a name, though.


In Hindi, jii can be attached to the last name of a person (M/F) to whom one uses aap. When added to a first name, it denotes a certain familiarity. In referring to aap persons, jii precedes last names.
(Source: McGregor: _Outline of Hindi Grammar_)

Searching the Intenet for "Gandhi-jii", for example, gets 31 600 hits.


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## lcfatima

Yes, in Hindi jee can be attached to a name, in that thread I meant that attaching -jee to a familiar term (e.g. ammi) is not due to any Hindi influence.


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## panjabigator

> I was thinking about this, lots of "accha jee?" "Theek hai jee," and "chalo jee" (sort of to change the subject, not meaning "let's go") in Punjab.



I was just thinking of that.  <jii> is inescapable in Panjabi.  It's presence is ubiquitous (at least in my family).

<tusii.n kii kar rahe ho jii>?
<tusii.n aaye jii>?
<tusii.n mai.n nuu.n kii aakhiyaa jii>
<bolo jii>


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## Qureshpor

I intended to reply to individual posters but then I thought it would be better to just write one post and hope that all the present and past participants get a chance to see it.

The meaning of the word "jii" is no different than its meaning in Urdu or Hindi. When a Punjabi says "jii aayaaN nuuN", one can translate it something like "My heart/life/soul is welcoming all who have arrived". Interesting thing is that this is said even if one person turns up. It is the plural of respect that is being used.

A well known Urdu dictionary breaks down the other usage of "jii".

1) A word used for the "affirmative" (haaN). 

This we know can and usually is added to "haaN" as in "jii haaN" for emphasis.

But there is a precidence of "jii" being placed after the "haaN". 

uuNT billiyaa le ga'ii to *haaN-jii haaN-jii* kahiye

Perhaps, the Punjabis have this "kahaavat" in mind when they say "haaN jii" in place of "jii haaN"!

2) In place of "janaab", "Hazarat" or "saaHib"...The dictionary compiler goes on to say "asl meN ek ta3ziim kaa kalimah hai, jaise *paNDit jii, shaix jii* vaGhairah".

Urdu meN jo shariik hone ke nahiiN
is mulk ke kaam Thiik hone ke nahiiN
mumkin nahiiN ShaiKh Imrul Qais baneN
*PanDit Jii *Vaalmiik hone ke nahiiN 

Akbar Ilahabadi

magar suno to *Shaix Jii*
3ajiib shai haiN aap bhii
bhalaa shabaab-o-3aashiqii
alag hu'e bhii haiN kabhii?

Hafeez Jalandhari

The respect can be afforded to a natural feature,such as a river. Once again, here is is Akbar Ilahabadi, writing about "jalvah-i-darbaar-i-dihlii".

*Jamnaa Jii *ke paaT ko dekhaa
achchhe suthre ghaaT ko dekhaa
sab se uuNche laaT ko dekhaa
Hazrat-i-Duke KanaaT ko dekhaa......

So, it is a word of respect, used by many including millions of Hindi speakers. But, it is not as if this is unknown in Urdu. "xudaa-i-suxan" has used it for himself and this is where perhaps the Punjabi poets *Insha Jii *and *Miira Jii *have borrowed the usage.

*Miir Jii  *is taraH se aate haiN
jaise kaNjar kaheeN ko jaate haiN    

I know I addressed my late father as "*abbaa jii*". Surely, you must have heard of the following..

"Halvaa'ii kii dukaan pih *daadaa-jii* kii faatiHah"

Well, if Urdu speakers can call their paternal grandfather "daadaa-jii", then there is no harm in Punjabi speakers using "jii" in this way.

In summary, Punjabi speakers are just following their Urdu teachers.

As for other extra bits and pieces, they would n't be Punjabis if they did n't!

mere ek dost haiN jinheN maiN kabhii-kabbhii "shah jii" kah ke pukaartaa huuN. aaj patah chalaa, vuh to baadshaah jii haiN!

جب دوسرا درویش بھی اپنی سیر کا قصہ کہہ چکا، رات آخر ہو گئی اور وقت صبح  کا شروع ہونے پر آیا۔ بادشاہ آزاد بخت چپکا اپنے دولت خانے کی طرف روانہ  ہوا۔ محل میں پہنچ کر نماز ادا کی۔ پھر غسل خانے میں جا کر خلعت فاخرہ پہن  کر دیوان عام میں تخت پر نکل بیٹھا۔ اور حکم کیا کہ یساول جاوے۔ چار فقیر  فلانے مکان پر وارد ہیں۔ ان کو باعزت اپنے ساتھ حضور میں لے آوے۔

بموجب حکم کے چوب دار وہاں گیا۔ دیکھا تو چاروں بے نوا، جھاڑا جھٹکا، پھر  ہاتھ منہ دھو کر چاہتے ہیں کہ وسا کریں اور اپنی اپنی راہ لیں۔ چیلے نے  کہا، شاہ جی نے چاروں صورتوں کو طلب فرمایا۔ میرے ساتھ چلیے۔ چاروں درویش  آس میں ایک ایک کو تکنے لگے اور چوب دار سے کہا بابا!ً ہم اپنے دل کے  بادشاہ ہیں۔ ہمیں دنیا کے بادشاہ سے کیا کام ہے؟

باغ و بہار۔ مرزا امن دہلوی


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## mundiya

Faylasoof said:


> The only time we use 'jii' is when I wish to be polite in saying 'yes' (jiihaaN) or 'no' (jiinaheeN).





lcfatima said:


> Though jee could be attached to a familiar term, I can't imagine it being added to a name, though.





Cilquiestsuens said:


> I would also think that it is a  Punjabi influence in Urdu....





BP. said:


> PG, I've never heard _jee_ being spoken in Urdu as a mark of respect, only _saaHab_, _janaab _etc. _Mia.n_ is more for those who're not elder or who work under/with you. E.g. I'm called BP _mia.n_ at home, since calling or alluding to somebody by their name is somehow rude.





BP. said:


> I can never imagine saying _am-mi/ab-bu jee_. It will always be _jaan_.



This makes sense.  I've wondered why Urdu speakers here use "saaHib" with other Urdu speakers but "jii" with Hindi speakers. 



Qureshpor said:


> "Halvaa'ii kii dukaan pih *daadaa-jii* kii faatiHah"
> 
> Well, if Urdu speakers can call their paternal grandfather "daadaa-jii",  then there is no harm in Punjabi speakers using "jii" in this way.
> 
> In summary, Punjabi speakers are just following their Urdu teachers.



There is a difference between usage in poetry and idioms versus actual spoken usage.  It seems "jaan" (for family relationships) and "saaHib, janaab" etc. (for respect) are much more common in Urdu usage than "jii".  By the way, the use of "jii" in Punjabi is not dependent on Urdu or any other language for that matter.  It has been used in many Indian languages (see below).


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## mundiya

Lugubert said:


> In referring to aap persons, jii *precedes *last names.



I assume you meant to say that it comes *after *last names.



linguist786 said:


> Gujarati - no.





Confused Linguist said:


> Bengali - no





Illuminatus said:


> It does not exist in Marathi, as far as I know. As I have explained before, I have been brought up in Hindi speaking areas and my knowledge of Hindi is much more superior to my knowledge of Marathi (despite it being my mother tongue), so I often mix words



Which term is used as a respectful suffix then?  For example, saying "pitaa" without an accompanying suffix would be very disrespectful.  According to Professor Turner, "ji" is or was used at one time in Gujarati, Bengali and Marathi.  Its usage in Bengali and Marathi are also confirmed by Professors Biswas and Berntsen.



> Turner: 5240 *jīˊva*2 ʻ long live! ʼ. [Imper. of jīˊvati]
> S. _jīu_ ʻ yes, honorific particle added to names ʼ; L. P. ʻ particle of assent or respect ʼ; Ku. _jyū_ ʻ term of respectful  address ʼ; N. _jiu_ ʻ particle of assent or respect ʼ, B. _ji_, H. G. M. _jī._  --  As honorific particle added to names the above prob. < 3 sg. _jīvatu._





> Biswas: জি (p. 0400) [ ji ]  n (_masc. & fem_.) a title of courtesy  affixed at the end of a person's name  (নেতাজি, মাতাজি, গুরুজি); Sir, or Madam  (হাঁ জি).





> Berntsen: जी 1. particle used to signify respect while  addressing someone. 2. particle  signifying yes.


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## Dib

mundiya said:


> Confused Linguist said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bengali - no
> 
> 
> 
> Which term is used as a respectful suffix then?  For example, saying "pitaa" without an accompanying suffix would be very disrespectful.  According to Professor Turner, "ji" is or was used at one time in Gujarati, Bengali and Marathi.  It usage in Bengali and Marathi are also confirmed by Professors Biswas and Berntsen.
Click to expand...


I had a short PM discussion with marrish-jii on this matter, as far as Bengali is concerned. So, I'll just copy-paste the relevant parts from there, with some additional info that I missed at that time:

In Bengali, jii is typically felt "foreign". I can think of three uses of it in the contemporary language:
1. It is used as a polite "yes" in Bangladesh.
2. It is used in some Hindu religious contexts, e.g. guru-ji, mata-ji (they respectively refer to male and female gurus), and after some  epithets of Krishna, etc. (e.g. radha-madhob-ji). In the last case, it has a more common variant: jiu (i.e. radha-madhob-jiu).
3. Added sometimes after non-Bengali Indians' names or epithets, imitating the Hindi usage, most notably bapu-ji (Gandhi), chacha-ji (Nehru), and I suspect, also neta-ji - though he was Bengali, the epithet was given by Gandhi.

In short, "-ji" is understood in Bengali, but it is not productive. It only occurs in some "fossilized" expressions, e.g. neta-ji can only refer to Subhas Bose, and not to any other political leader.

Now coming to how the Bengali respect markers work, first of all "pita" is super-formal in Bengali. I'd say it exists only on the pages of books. We always address our fathers "baba" (some Muslims: abba), or by some affectionate version of that, e.g. "bapi", "abbu", etc. I don't think we use any explicit respect markers for our parents. Now coming to the more general situation: Traditionally, for Hindus it was babu for men and debi for women, and  for Muslims saheb and begom/bibi/saheba... But they are less versatile  than jii. I'd say, they - especially the female versions - were limited  only to being used after personal names. You can never say masi-debi for  example. It's always masi-ma, kaki-ma, mami-ma, pisi-ma for respectful  reference to one's masi, kaki (=chaachii), mami, pisi (=buaa). For  males, there is mɔsai (< Skt. mahaashaya) used similarly for some  relations, e.g. meso-mɔsai but kaka-babu (or more commonly just "kaku"). I have no idea how to  untangle these knots. Basically, there is no direct productive equivalent of jii in  Bengali. And some of the traditional respect markers are falling out of use  anyway. debi is totally obsolete for example. babu is, however, still  holding on, but it is not popular in our generation of urban youth. So,  it will also be dead in a couple of generations in the city probably.

 A more English-like sri/srijukto (Mr.), kumari (Miss),  srimoti/srijukta (Mrs, Ms) put before name is the norm in all official  usage, including in the media. And, urban people are using Mr-Miss-Mrs  more and more often. But using bare names is pretty common in informal  situations, e.g. in Bengali internet forums, nobody normally uses any qualifier  with any other forum member's name.

There is also the strategy of adding relation words after names to  show respect, e.g. female school teachers are very often addressed as "didi" or name+-di - at least in the rural areas.

~~~

In Gujarati, I believe the respect markers are generally -bhaai and -ben used after names. No idea about any respect markers for relation words.


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## Qureshpor

mundiya said:


> This makes sense.  I've wondered why Urdu  speakers here use "saaHib" with other Urdu speakers but "jii" with Hindi  speakers.[..]


I have already provided detailed response to these remarks in #post 14 quoting examples from Urdu literary heritage. The thrust of my argument in post 14 is that Punjabi speakers' use of "jii" when speaking Urdu is not influenced by their being Punjabi but this usage already existed in Urdu. If modern day Urdu speakers have abandoned this usage, that is another issue. Akbar Ilahabadi died in 1921. If one says he used "panDit jii" just to conform to Hindu society's usage of this term, then take a look at these.

mar3uub ho ga'e haiN vilaayat se *shaix jii*
ab sirf man3 karte haiN desii sharaab ko!

(mar3uub/overawed)

raat ko *shaix jii* masjid meN nahiiN jaate haiN
goyaa Darte haiN baiThaa nah ho allaah kahiiN!

Regarding the use of "SaaHib" that is certainly part of the culture associated with Urdu. In another (Urdu poetry) forum, everyone irrespective of their faith background, is referred to as x SaaHib/ah because they all have one common interest, namely Urdu poetry. Here, to show sensitivity to others I use "SaaHib" for Urdu speakers and "jii" for practioners of other Subcontinental languages. If mundiya, Dib, panjabigator, Illuminatus etc were Urdu speakers I would instinctively use SaaHib with their names. 



mundiya said:


> [...]There is a difference between usage in poetry and idioms versus actual spoken usage. It seems "jaan" (for family relationships) and "saaHib, janaab" etc. (for respect) are much more common in Urdu usage than "jii". By the way, the use of "jii" in Punjabi is not dependent on Urdu or any other language for that matter. It has been used in many Indian languages (see below).


Indeed it is true that there may be a difference in usage in poetry and idioms. My logic in quoting "daadaa jii" was simply this. If "daadaa jii" is acceptable to Urdu speakers, then there is no reason why abbaa/abbuu jii or ammii jii would n't be acceptable. 

I am fully aware of usage of "jii" in Punjabi and other Pakistani and Indian languages. Indeed Punjabi literature goes back to Baba Fareed (born around 1179).  As explained earlier, my remarks were in direct response to some Punjabi-centred remarks. 

As a matter of interest, have you ever come across "jii" after *ਪਿਓ* ?


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## mundiya

Qureshpor said:


> As a matter of interest, have you ever come across "jii" after *ਪਿਓ* ?


Yes, I've heard some people say it, but we use "addaa jii".


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## mundiya

Dib said:


> There is also the strategy of adding relation words after names to  show respect, e.g. female school teachers are very often addressed as "didi" or name+-di - at least in the rural areas.



And "da" (from daauu ?) as in "Kishore da" is the male equivalent?  The usage of "da/di" seems similar to "jii", but from what I understand it can only be used with names and not titles or family relations.


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## Dib

mundiya said:


> And "da" (from daauu ?) as in "Kishore da" is the male equivalent?  The usage of "da/di" seems similar to "jii", but from what I understand it can only be used with names and not titles or family relations.



In general, yes - "da" is the male equivalent (related to "dada" = big brother). But in the specific case of male school teachers, that is not usual (though it was in my school), where -babu is the usual suffix.


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## mundiya

Qureshpor said:


> My logic in quoting "daadaa jii" was simply this. If "daadaa jii" is acceptable to Urdu speakers, then there is no reason why abbaa/abbuu jii or ammii jii would n't be acceptable.



Does the use of "jii" after first or last names occur in Urdu (outside Punjabi contexts), for example as in "Qureshi jii"?  What about after the names of God, e.g "Xudaa jii", "Rabb jii"? I use "Rabb jii" in Punjabi. I asked my Urdu speaking friends, but they are completely unfamiliar with these usages in the context of Urdu.


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## Qureshpor

mundiya said:


> Does the use of "jii" after first or last names occur in Urdu, for example as in "Qureshi jii"?  What about after the names of God, e.g "Xudaa jii"? I asked my Urdu speaking friends, but they are completely unfamiliar with these usages in the context of Urdu.


Well, I have n't come across "xudaa jii" but "allaah jii" is common amongst us Punjabi speakers. 

x-jii once again is common amongst Punjabi speakers of Urdu but our mother tongue friends have said that is a big no no! But, if you remember, I did quote Miir Taqi Miir (xudaa-i-suxan/lord of poetry) say..

*Miir Jii  *is taraH se aate haiN
jaise kaNjar kaheeN ko jaate haiN


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## mundiya

Dib said:


> In Gujarati, I believe the respect markers are generally -bhaai and -ben used after names. No idea about any respect markers for relation words.



It may not be in current use, but the -jii suffix seems to have been productive in Gujarati and Marathi names at one time, e.g. "Lalluji Lal", "Jamshetji Tata", "Shivaji".  Is it the same honorific suffix used in the Bengali surnames "Bannerji", "Chatterji", "Mukherji"?


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## Dib

mundiya said:


> It may not be in current use, but the -jii suffix seems to have been productive in Gujarati and Marathi names at one time, e.g. "Lalluji Lal", "Jamshetji Tata", "Shivaji".



You have a point there.



mundiya said:


> Is it the same honorific suffix used in the Bengali surnames "Bannerji", "Chatterji", "Mukherji"?



No, those are anglicization of - I believe - ba~Rujje বাঁড়ুজ্জে, chaTujje চাটুজ্জে and mukhujje মুখুজ্জে, the traditional Bengali colloquial equivalents of the corresponding Sanskritic terms - bɔndopaddhay (<vandyopaadhyaaya বন্দ্যোপাধ্যায়), chɔTTopaddhay (< chaTTopaadhyaaya চট্টোপাধ্যায়) and mukhopaddhay (< mukhopaadhyaaya মুখোপাধ্যায়).


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## marrish

Lugubert said:


> In Hindi, jii can be attached to the last name of a person (M/F) to whom one uses aap. When added to a first name, it denotes a certain familiarity. In referring to aap persons, jii precedes last names.
> (Source: McGregor: _Outline of Hindi Grammar_)





mundiya said:


> I assume you meant to say that it comes *after *last names.


I am absolutely not sure about the veracity of the above quotation, I assume it has been typed over correctly and considering that we can't ask the late McGregor for explanation, I would like to dwell on this matter for a while.

Sushila Varma
last name: Varma+jii
1st name (Sushila)+ jii (familiarity)
Sushila jii Varma (precedes last name)?


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## marrish

Qureshpor said:


> I have already provided detailed response to these remarks in #post 14 quoting examples from Urdu literary heritage. The thrust of my argument in post 14 is that Punjabi speakers' use of "jii" when speaking Urdu is not influenced by their being Punjabi but this usage already existed in Urdu. If modern day Urdu speakers have abandoned this usage, that is another issue. Akbar Ilahabadi died in 1921. If one says he used "panDit jii" just to conform to Hindu society's usage of this term, then take a look at these.
> 
> mar3uub ho ga'e haiN vilaayat se *shaix jii*
> ab sirf man3 karte haiN desii sharaab ko!
> 
> (mar3uub/overawed)
> 
> raat ko *shaix jii* masjid meN nahiiN jaate haiN
> goyaa Darte haiN baiThaa nah ho allaah kahiiN!
> 
> Regarding the use of "SaaHib" that is certainly part of the culture associated with Urdu. In another (Urdu poetry) forum, everyone irrespective of their faith background, is referred to as x SaaHib/ah because they all have one common interest, namely Urdu poetry. Here, to show sensitivity to others I use "SaaHib" for Urdu speakers and "jii" for practioners of other Subcontinental languages. If mundiya, Dib, panjabigator, Illuminatus etc were Urdu speakers I would instinctively use SaaHib with their names.
> 
> 
> Indeed it is true that there may be a difference in usage in poetry and idioms. My logic in quoting "daadaa jii" was simply this. If "daadaa jii" is acceptable to Urdu speakers, then there is no reason why abbaa/abbuu jii or ammii jii would n't be acceptable.
> 
> I am fully aware of usage of "jii" in Punjabi and other Pakistani and Indian languages. Indeed Punjabi literature goes back to Baba Fareed (born around 1179).  As explained earlier, my remarks were in direct response to some Punjabi-centred remarks.
> 
> As a matter of interest, have you ever come across "jii" after *ਪਿਓ* ?


I am not sure whether I should agree with your very well documented theses. I am speaking here about Urdu only. daadaajii, shaah jii, shaix jii, paNDit jii and also miir jii are titles, not proper names.


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## Qureshpor

marrish jii, Miir is a proper name and so is Shah. Shah is used as a first name. Let's be precise about the whole business.

daadaa jii (family relationship). I have a feeling "xaalah jii kaa ghar" is part of Urdu idiom.

shaix jii (title)

Miir jii (proper name-human)

Jamnaa jii (proper name- place)

haaN jii, haaN jii ( in contrast with jii haaN as in the idiom ..uuNT billiyaa le ga'ii to *haaN-jii haaN-jii* kahiye)


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## mundiya

^ Miir was also his taxallus, hence a title.  Shaah, if you interpret it as king, is also a title.  Jamnaa is the permanent name of an important river, hence by status it is akin to the titles of important people, for example paNDit, shaix, etc.


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## mundiya

marrish said:


> I am absolutely not sure about the veracity of the above quotation, I assume it has been typed over correctly and considering that we can't ask the late McGregor for explanation, I would like to dwell on this matter for a while.
> 
> Sushila Varma
> last name: Varma+jii
> 1st name (Sushila)+ jii (familiarity)
> Sushila jii Varma (precedes last name)?



Yes, that's a good explanation.  I agree with your interpretation.  But, I feel Sushila Varma jii is also correct.  I've heard this format used before too.


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## panjabigator

Re: ਪਿਓ ਜੀ I feel like I haven't heard this one, thought the counterpart I hear quite frequently: ਮਾ ਜੀ, ਬੀਜੀ, ਬੀਬੀ ਜੀ. BUT, just "ਬੇਬੇ," sans "ਜੀ." And ਝਈ ਜੀ I hear both ways.


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## marrish

Qureshpor said:


> marrish jii, Miir is a proper name and so is Shah. Shah is used as a first name. Let's be precise about the whole business.
> 
> daadaa jii (family relationship). I have a feeling "xaalah jii kaa ghar" is part of Urdu idiom.
> shaix jii (title)
> Miir jii (proper name-human)
> Jamnaa jii (proper name- place)
> haaN jii, haaN jii ( in contrast with jii haaN as in the idiom ..uuNT billiyaa le ga'ii to *haaN-jii haaN-jii* kahiye)


Coming back to the usage of "_jii_" in Urdu as a honorific (as there is no doubt about the usage of it with or without _haaN_). I agree that _xaalah jii kaa ghar_ is a well established and widely used Urdu idiom. In one of my previous posts I suggested that all the examples of authentic Urdu prose and poetry are missing an instance of a proper name together with "_jii_" and said that these words are titles, not proper names. After giving it a bit of consideration I have to say that although my statement, due to your explanation needs to be revised, still it holds up if we call "_daadaa, shaix, miir paNDit_" forms of address. If it doesn't hold up then it's fine, at least we can have the point better documented and thought over.

I also agree that _Jamnaa_ is a proper geographical name and not a form of address. Let's assume that it's an exception.

_shaah jii_, is a proper name used both as a first or last one, but also as a form of address, i.a. to males of Shia denomination who need not bear a proper name "_shaah_". Besides, the example from BaaGh-o-bahaar is very clear: the _faqiir_ say _shaah jii_ to mean the king, _baadshaah_.

We have *Miir jii* left out which is in a way a point of contention for a couple of reasons:
- _miir_ to the best of my knowledge has been a title, not a proper name per se. The poet known by his _taxallus_ as Miir was born as Muhammad Taqi (_muHammad taqii_) but his nom de plume was not due to his fancy alone as he was born in a family of Mirs - that is to say, he was of Arabic ancestry of Saiyid lineage so he was addressed, bore the title of Miir, in the same way as his father and son did. Presumably he used to be addressed with the title "Mir" which he chose as his name.
- in this way, Miir as his _taxallus_ came to be known as the proper name of this great poet.
- my previous post and especially the reference to Miir jii was caused by your choice of illustration._*
Miir Jii *is taraH se aate haiN
jaise kaNjar kahiiN ko jaate haiN
_​
In this particular case I didn't find the couplet convincing enough because of its context. I'd love to see any translation or interpretation of this _shi3r_ in Urdu or English but it's perhaps for a separate thread.

Now my argument arrives at a point where I am going to kill it, through the words of the said Miir Taqii Miir himself as to the contrary of what I just said, the examples are thick as summer stars. A small selection of stand-alone couplets as reference below:

لالہ و گل ہی کے مصروف رہو ہو شب و روز
تم مگر میر جی سید ہو گلستانے کے
_laalah-o-gul hii ke masruuf raho ho shab-o-roz
tum magar *Miir jii* saiyyid ho gulistaane ke
_***
نہ شکوہ شکایت نہ حرف و حکایت
کہو میر جی آج کیوں ہو خفا سے
_nah shikwah shikaayat nah Harf-o-Hikaayat
kaho *Miir jii* aaj kyoN ho xafaa se
_***
مرنے سے کیا میر جی صاحب ہم کو ہوش تھے کیا کریے
جی سے ہاتھ اٹھائے گئے پر اس سے دل نہ اٹھائے گئے
_marne se kyaa *Miir jii SaaHib* ham ko hosh the kyaa kariye
*jii* se haath uThaa'e ga'e par us se dil nah uThaa'e ga'e
_***
دیر تک کعبے میں تھے شب بے ہوش
پی گئے میر جی شراب بہت
_der tak ka3be meN the shab-e-be~hosh
pii ga'e *Miir jii* sharaab bahut
_***
میر جی زرد ہوتے جاتے ہو
کیا کہیں تم نے بھی کیا ہے عشق
_*Miir jii* zard hote jate ho
kyaa kahiiN tum ne bhii kiyaa hae 3ishq
_***
پھول کیا میر جی کو وہ محبوب
سر چڑھاوے گلے کا ھار کرے
_phuul kyaa Miir jii ko wuh maHbuub
sar chaRhaawe gale kaa haar kare
_***
میر جی راز عشق ہو گا فاش
چشم ہر لحظہ مت پر آب کرو
_*Miir jii* raaz-e-3ishq ho gaa faash
chashm har laHzah mat pur~aab karo
_***
آشنا یار سارے بیگانے
کہ ہوئے میر جی تو دیوانے
_aashnaa yaar saare begaane
kih hu'e *Miir jii* to diiwaane
_***
شور و شغب کو راتوں کے ہمسایے تمھارے کیا روویں
ایسے فتنے کتنے اٹھیں گے میر جی تم جو سلامت ہو
_shor-o-shaGhab ko raatoN ke ham~saaye tumhaare kyaa roweN
aise fitne kitne uTheN ge *Miir jii* tum jo salaamat ho

_​Now my point hangs on by a thread and this thread is that Miir is a title or form of address.


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## Qureshpor

^  From Miir Muhammad Taqi Miir, if Miir is a title for a Sayyid and if the poet is using the same title Miir as a taxallus, it would be interesting to see if "jii" is used by Urdu speakers who are not poets after their names.

 I am personally not convinced that in the poet Miir's case, Miir was his title. The name given to the poet Faiz Ahmed Faiz (albeit not an Urdu speaker) by his parents was Faiz Ahmed. He then adopted his first name as his taxallus. I am wondering if Miir was also part of his name which he doubled it as a taxallus. All this aside, if no other examples of "jii" after names of Urdu speakers can be cited then it would be fair to conclude that "jii" is used for titles (shaix, miir) and relationships. As for the latter, the examples (daadaa jii, xaalah jii) are frozen in time and non-productive.

There are couple of examples I know where "jii" is used by Urdu poets (who are not mother tongue Urdu speakers) after their names. One is Miiraa Jii and the other Insha Jii.


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## mundiya

^ "Miiraa Jii" and "Insha" were their taxallus and not their actual names.


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## Qureshpor

mundiya said:


> ^ "Miiraa Jii" and "Insha" were their taxallus and not their actual names.


I am aware that Miiraa and Insha are not the names they were given at their birth. However, I am not sure if these names have been used as a "taxallus". I could be wrong.


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## marrish

A couple of days ago I got some glimpse of a scholarly article suggesting the origin of jii in Austro-Munda sources. If I get it again or reach to the source (Prof.),I will share it. It was a paper from the Czech republic but I lost it.


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## mundiya

^Yes, there is a similar suggestion in a Sora-English dictionary (1986) by Veṅkaṭarāmamūrti (p. 124).  But his/her suggestion is not convincing at all.  In Sora (an Austroasiatic language) -ji is used as a plural suffix for nouns, pronouns, numbers, and verbs.  There is no semantic connection whatsoever with the honorific -jii from what I could tell, so it made little sense to suggest a possible relationship.  I will reserve judgement on the Czech paper until you can find it.  We should get fdb saahab's views on the dictionary and paper too.


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## marrish

Qureshpor said:


> I am aware that Miiraa and Insha are not the names they were given at their birth. However, I am not sure if these names have been used as a "taxallus". I could be wrong.


In one of Mirza Asadullah Khan Ghalib's letters a certain *Naazir jii* is mentioned. Now is it a title or a name I don't know, please tell us.


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## eskandar

marrish said:


> A couple of days ago I got some glimpse of a scholarly article suggesting the origin of jii in Austro-Munda sources. If I get it again or reach to the source (Prof.),I will share it. It was a paper from the Czech republic but I lost it.


This thread may be of relevance. Personally I see no reason to suspect an origin for jii other than the standard explanation (eg. Platts has it coming from Prakrit जीवो, from Sanskrit जीवः). As a term meaning 'life' or 'soul' (related to jiivan), it would parallel the cognate use of jaan in Persian and giaan in Kurdish. Other unrelated languages, like Arabic, also use words for 'life' or 'soul' as terms of endearment (eg. Arabic حياتي or روحي).


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## urdustan

I think using jii with names is Punjabi usage more than Urdu, but I grew up among Punjabis so I adopted it too.


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## MonsieurGonzalito

In Devanagari, I see _-jii_ written as one word:  पिताजी 
or as 2  पिता जी
but I can't find on the internet the 2 words separated by a hyphen: पिता-जी

Does the hyphenated version exist too? I suspect the absence of results might be due to a defect in the search engines, because the '-' might be used for other purposes.


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> In one of Mirza Asadullah Khan Ghalib's letters a certain *Naazir jii* is mentioned. Now is it a title or a name I don't know, please tell us.


Are you able to trace the letter and the full name of the maktuub ilaih, the recipient? Hopefully then we’ll be able to give more context to the person you have mentioned.


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## Qureshpor

urdustan said:


> I think using jii with names is Punjabi usage more than Urdu, but I grew up among Punjabis so I adopted it too.


Did you read all the posts, urdustan SaaHib?


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## rarabara

as I can see "all iir languages" in the equiette, I think I can respond.

In _Kurdish_, we use this particle in different forms , but most commonly like "too" or "also" as in these sentences.

Did you enjoy last film in the cinema? ,Yes.
oh ,me, _too_. (But not with double i in "jii" there)

or ,"our machine is _also_ broken"


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## Qureshpor

rarabara said:


> as I can see "all iir languages" in the equiette, I think I can respond.
> 
> In _Kurdish_, we use this particle in different forms , but most commonly like "too" or "also" as in these sentences.
> 
> Did you enjoy last film in the cinema? ,Yes.
> oh ,me, _too_. (But not with double i in "jii" there)
> 
> or ,"our machine is _also_ broken"


Do you by any chance know the etyyof the word jii in Kurdish?


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## rarabara

Qureshpor said:


> etyyof the word jii in Kurdish?


etyyof? (did you implicate : etymology ? or specifically ask whether I recognize "etyyof" word in Kurdish?)
could you revise your question?
thanks.


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## Qureshpor

rarabara said:


> etyyof? (did you implicate : etymology ? or specifically ask whether I recognize "etyyof" word in Kurdish?)
> could you revise your question?
> thanks.


Sorry I meant to write etymology


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## rarabara

Qureshpor said:


> Do you by any chance know the etyyof the word jii in Kurdish?


no I do not know.
But this particle might sometimes be pronounced by someone incorrectly.
trying to give a bit of embodiment to the statement, this particle is not being pronounced as it stands in arabic alphabet

جي

more closely it is being pronounced within _Turkish_ language jii or if I give a try to write in _Kurdish_, it is ژی

some particles in _Chinese_ might also conform to it.


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## cHr0mChIk

In the languages of Rajashtan, "sa" is the equivalent of the Hindi/Urdu/Punjabi "ji".

They explain it in this video:


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## amiramir

MonsieurGonzalito said:


> In Devanagari, I see _-jii_ written as one word:  पिताजी
> or as 2  पिता जी
> but I can't find on the internet the 2 words separated by a hyphen: पिता-जी
> 
> Does the hyphenated version exist too? I suspect the absence of results might be due to a defect in the search engines, because the '-' might be used for other purposes.



I don't think anyone responded to this. It would never occur to me to write append जी to the preceding word with a hyphen. I don't think that's commonly done at all. Of course I'm sure there are isolated examples, and everyone has their own idiosyncrasies. But I would expect the vast vast majority to be either option 1 or option 2 above, with both being equally acceptable.


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## littlepond

amiramir said:


> I don't think anyone responded to this. It would never occur to me to write append जी to the preceding word with a hyphen. I don't think that's commonly done at all. Of course I'm sure there are isolated examples, and everyone has their own idiosyncrasies. But I would expect the vast vast majority to be either option 1 or option 2 above, with both being equally acceptable.



For me, in fact, only option 1, i.e. पिताजी, is acceptable. Of course, with a name, I don't mind space, e.g. रमाकांत जी. And, of course, never a hyphen.


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