# Another take on the present perfect



## vertigo12

Hello everyone!
What I've learned so far about using this form is that native speakers of American English view it differently, and probably it's just me but from what I've heard and seen they don't differentiate much between the present perfect and the past simple when referring to a completed action in the past that has some significance in the present (_Anna has broken her leg, so she can't play tennis_). Personally, I suppose pretty much ALL of my actions in the past have an impact on the present, but obviously people won't describe just any past action using the present perfect. So I'd like to know your opinion on the use of the said form that I'm about to contextualize.

Suppose I'm a plumber. My dispatcher just got a call from a woman who has a problem with her faucet. I get to do the job and move out to the woman's house. I walk in and follow the woman into the kitchen. I examine the faucet and tell her it'll take about half an hour to fix the thing. While I'm fixing it, I suddenly realize the woman is gone. And after I'm done, I head outside and see her sitting on the porch. I interrupt her daydreaming by saying, "I've fixed the faucet." She thanks me, I get paid, we say goodbye to one another, I get into my car, call my dispatcher and tell her the same thing -- "I've fixed her faucet. Is there anything else I can do?"

What do you think? Would those sentences work if I used the past simple instead?


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## Chasint

In American English they would work in simple past. In British English we would use present perfect.


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## dojibear

vertigo12 said:


> that has some significance in the present



I have seen this idea mentioned in this forum, by ESL students. Apparently some courses that teach English add this condition for "when to use present perfect". But I disagree. I have never noticed this, ever. To me this is *not* part of the meaning of present perfect. I believe that other AE native speakers think as I do. (I cannot comment on BE).

"Present perfect" covers a time period that starts in the past and ends *right now*. "Simple past" covers a time period that *has ended*. That is the *only* difference between these tenses. For that reason, *many* sentences can use either one.


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## Brigitte_anna

dojibear said:


> "Present perfect" covers a time period that starts in the past and ends *right now*. "Simple past" covers a time period that *has ended*. That is the *only* difference between these tenses. For that reason, *many* sentences can use either one.


Could anybody elaborate this guidance a little bit, please?

For example, what context allows the phrase "I have eaten"?

Mon, 9:00 a.m. - I'm eating.
Mon, 9:15 a.m. - My eating is finished.
Mon, 10:00 a.m. - Time period (9:00 - 9:15) has ended, so I can only use "I ate" to inform anybody about my breakfast. Is it right?


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## Loob

Brigitte_anna said:


> Could anybody elaborate this guidance a little bit, please?
> 
> For example, what context allows the phrase "I have eaten"?
> 
> Mon, 9:00 a.m. - I'm eating.
> Mon, 9:15 a.m. - My eating is finished.
> Mon, 10 a.m. - Time period (9:00 - 9:15) has ended, so I can only use "I ate" to inform anybody about my breakfast. Is it right?


What do you want to tell people about your breakfast, Brigitte_anna?

Do you want to tell them that you ate it at a particular time? Or do you want to tell them you're not hungry any more?


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## Brigitte_anna

Loob said:


> What do you want to tell people about your breakfast, Brigitte_anna?
> 
> Do you want to tell them that you ate it at a particular time? Or do you want to tell them you're not hungry any more?


I want to know if the guidance is complete and can be used to decide which tense (Simple Past or Present Perfect) should be used?


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## Loob

My question in post 5 was aimed at helping you reach a decision between the two tenses in the context of your "breakfast" question.

It seems to have failed.


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## Brigitte_anna

Loob said:


> My question in post 5 was aimed at helping you reach a decision between the two tenses in the context of your breakfast question.
> 
> It seems to have failed.


No, it didn't failed. But did you read the post#3?


dojibear said:


> That is the *only* difference between these tenses.


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## Loob

You're asking if I agree with doji's post 3? No, I don't think I do.


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## Brigitte_anna

Loob said:


> You're asking if I agree with doji's post 3? No, I don't think I do.


But he is not the only one who suggests this guidance. For example Uses of English verb forms - Wikipedia:
_The choice of present perfect or past tense depends on the frame of reference (period or point in time) in which the event is conceived as occurring. If the frame of reference extends to the present time, the present perfect is used. For example:
I *have written* a letter this morning. (if it is still the morning)
He *has produced* ten plays. (if he is still alive and professionally active)
They *have never traveled* abroad. (if they are still alive and considered capable of traveling)_


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## Rival

As far as I am aware, the Present Perfect is used primarily to express two situations:

1. An action or situation which started in the past and continues to the present (but doesn't necessarily suggest anything about when it ends).  e.g. "I _have lived_ in London for ten years." and "I _have played_ tennis since I was a child."

2. An action or situation which happened in the past and has a relevance to the present conversation. e.g. "No thanks, Grandma, I couldn't eat another scrap of turkey; I'_ve had_ three plates already." and "_Have_ you ever _been_ to Hong Kong?"

Number 2 would explain the OP's plumber's remarks.
.


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## Phil-Olly

Can I offer this example:

Mary asks her son to get her shopping, and at the same time to get her mother's shopping and drop it off on his way home.
When he gets home, she asks:
"Did you get your grandma's shopping?" He replies that he did.
"And have you got my shopping?"  He replies that he has.
The difference being that he still has his mother's shopping, but has dropped off his grandma's shopping on his way home, but note that the time frame is exactly the same in each case.


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## Brigitte_anna

I suppose you meant "And have you gotten my shopping?" (not "And have you got my shopping?")?

Can I change your example?

Mary asks her son to get her shopping, and at the same time to get her mother's shopping and drop it off on his way home.
When he gets home, she asks:
Mary: "Have you gotten your grandma's shopping?" 
Son: "Yes, I have gotten grandma's shopping and I dropped it off on my way home"
Mary: "And did you get my shopping?" 
Son: "Yes, I did"

Is everything still correct and has exactly the same meaning?


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## Uncle Jack

dojibear said:


> I have seen this idea mentioned in this forum, by ESL students. Apparently some courses that teach English add this condition for "when to use present perfect". But I disagree. I have never noticed this, ever. To me this is *not* part of the meaning of present perfect. I believe that other AE native speakers think as I do. (I cannot comment on BE).
> 
> "Present perfect" covers a time period that starts in the past and ends *right now*. "Simple past" covers a time period that *has ended*. That is the *only* difference between these tenses. For that reason, *many* sentences can use either one.


Gosh! I had never realised there was such a sharp distinction between AmE and BrE usage. I will be more careful with my replies in future. We definitely have the "significance in the present" usage.



Brigitte_anna said:


> I suppose you meant "And have you gotten my shopping?" (not "And have you got my shopping?")?


Not in BrE, where "gotten" isn't used.


Brigitte_anna said:


> Is everything still correct and has exactly the same meaning?


For a completed action in the past, both the present perfect and the simple past describe the same action, but they give different significance to the action in the present (in BrE only; I think from dojibear's post that AmE speakers would only use the simple past tense here). So while you can use the simple past throughout, it would be perverse to use the present perfect for the shopping you no longer have with you, but use the simple past for the shopping you still have, both for the question and the answer.


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## Phil-Olly

Brigitte_anna said:


> I suppose you meant "And have you gotten my shopping?" (not "And have you got my shopping?")?
> 
> Can I change your example?
> 
> Mary asks her son to get her shopping, and at the same time to get her mother's shopping and drop it off on his way home.
> When he gets home, she asks:
> Mary: "Have you gotten your grandma's shopping?"
> Son: "Yes, I have gotten grandma's shopping and I dropped it off on my way home"
> Mary: "And did you get my shopping?"
> Son: "Yes, I did"
> 
> Is everything still correct and has exactly the same meaning?



Well, not quite, but then as I'm not an AmE speaker, I can't be sure of the accuracy of the first exchange.
In BrE, if Mary asks "Have you got(ten) your grandma's shopping", she would mean, "do you have it with you", so to me it sounds like a contradiction to say "I have got(ten) it, and I dropped it off."

I don't think it's a coincidence that the perfect tense contains the word "Have"
Compare these two sentences: "I have toasted some buns" and "I have some toasted buns"
By contrast "I toasted some buns" could be a precursor to "..but nobody wanted them, so I threw them out."

The second exchange works okay.  But it loses the subtlety whereby information is included about where the shopping is now.  He could still add: "...but I left it at Grandma's by mistake."


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## dojibear

Brigitte_anna said:


> s ended, so I can only use "I ate" to inform anybody about my breakfast. Is it right?



As Loob says, it depends on what you want to say. You can say "I have eaten" (between waking up and now) or "I ate" (earlier):

What time did you eat breakfast?
I ate breakfast at 7.
I have eaten breakfast at 7.

Did you eat breakfast yet? (today before *now*):
I have (already) eaten breakfast.
I have not eaten breakfast (yet).
I already ate breakfast.


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## JulianStuart

dojibear said:


> A
> 
> Did you eat breakfast yet? (today before *now*):
> I have (already) eaten breakfast.
> I have not eaten breakfast (yet).
> I already ate breakfast.


On the topic of perfect tenses and AE/BE, is there an AE/BE preference between
Did you eat breakfast yet?
and
Have you eaten breakfast yet?


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## Phil-Olly

I think we're hearing the first more often in the UK these days.  There was a time when the perfect tense was never used with "already" or "yet"


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## Brigitte_anna

dojibear said:


> it depends on what you want to say.


Doesn't it contradict with your previous post?


dojibear said:


> "Present perfect" covers a time period that starts in the past and ends *right now*. "Simple past" covers a time period that *has ended*. That is the *only* difference between these tenses.


Or does a time period depends on what I want to say?


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## sound shift

Phil-Olly said:


> I think we're hearing the first more often in the UK these days.  There was a time when the perfect tense was never used with "already" or "yet"


Yes, we're seeing and hearing "Did you eat breakfast yet?" from sources that tend to like to introduce American English, such as advertisers and certain theoretically BrE-speaking journalists, but I don't think I've ever heard "Did you eat breakfast yet?" in the real world from anyone I know. I don't use it.


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## Phil-Olly

dojibear said:


> "Present perfect" covers a time period that starts in the past and ends *right now*. "Simple past" covers a time period that *has ended*. That is the *only* difference between these tenses. For that reason, *many* sentences can use either one.



I think the OP was asking about how the use of the perfect tense differs between between AE & BE.  I suspect that you could write a book about the use of the perfect in BE, to be going on with, consider this:

BE: 
"Have you read _War and Peace_?" 
"Yes I have read it.  I read it when I was a teenager."
Why is the perfect tense used here?  Because question and the first sentence of the answer is about the nature of the person in question - they are male, six feet tall, have blue eyes, and have read _War and Peace_.  Possibly it is still on their bookshelf.  
The second sentence tells us when the reading took place - hence simple past.

"Did you read _War and Peace_?"
"No, thank you for lending it to me, but I never got round to reading it."
The question is asked in the simple past tense, because it refers to a specific time period.

I'd be interested to know if this distinction is ever made in the US

On the breakfast topic:
"Have you eaten your breakfast?"
"Yes I have.  And I ate yours as well."
The second sentence of the reply could equally well be in the perfect tense, but the distinction here is interesting.
"My breakfast" is simply a part of the day which has now passed and recorded as being in a finished state.  Hence: "Have you...?  Yes, I have."
"Your breakfast" is an exceptional event (not normal to eat someone else's breakfast), so the simple past is appropriate.


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## dojibear

Brigitte_anna said:


> Doesn't it contradict with your previous post?



Not if you include the whole statement, instead of cutting out half of it. The whole statement was:



dojibear said:


> it depends on what you want to say. You can say "I have eaten" (between waking up and now) or "I ate" (earlier):



That is an example of covering different time periods, not a contradiction of it. "Between waking up and now" is one time period. "Earlier" is a different time period. You can want to say either thing (in AE) about eating breakfast.


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## Brigitte_anna

dojibear said:


> Not if you include the whole statement, instead of cutting out half of it. The whole statement was:
> 
> 
> 
> That is an example of covering different time periods, not a contradiction of it. "Between waking up and now" is one time period. "Earlier" is a different time period. You can want to say either thing (in AE) about eating breakfast.


So a time period is not determined by the situation (by the contex) - instead it is determined by what I want to say, right?


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## lingobingo

I would urge you to take note of Phil-Olly’s posts, which explain some of the everyday uses of the present perfect very clearly. 

But I think in post #18 he meant the simple past tense rather than “the perfect tense”.


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## dojibear

Brigitte_anna said:


> So a time period is not determined by the situation (by the contex) - instead it is determined by what I want to say, right?



Yes, that is my opinion. For example, if someone punched you 10 days ago, you might say:

"He punched me last week." (time period: a week ending before now, so verb tense = past)
"He has punched me in the last month." (time period: the month ending now, so verb tense = present perfect)


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## Phil-Olly

Yes, you're right, Lingo Bingo. Oops!  Thanks for pointing out my slip.


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## Brigitte_anna

dojibear said:


> Yes, that is my opinion. For example, if someone punched you 10 days ago, you might say:
> 
> "He punched me last week." (time period: a week ending before now, so verb tense = past)
> "He has punched me in the last month." (time period: the month ending now, so verb tense = present perfect)


OK. But I still confused with the examples you gave:


dojibear said:


> You can say "I have eaten" (between waking up and now) or "I ate" (earlier):
> 
> What time did you eat breakfast?
> I ate breakfast at 7.
> I have eaten breakfast at 7. _What is wrong here? (7 is between waking up and now)_
> 
> Did you eat breakfast yet? (today before *now*): _Why not Present Perfect? (a time period *before now*)_


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## lingobingo

“I have eaten breakfast at 7” is wrong because the present perfect cannot be used with a specific time marker (unless the time in question is the same as or close to the speaker’s “now”).

However, if you were talking about the here and now, you _could_ specify the *present* time:

_It’s 9 pm and we’ve just arrived / We have arrived at our destination at 9 pm_​Since 9 pm is the moment of speaking, it’s the time perspective of the speaker/writer. And that’s by far the most important aspect of perfect tenses.


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## Brigitte_anna

lingobingo said:


> “I have eaten breakfast at 7” is wrong because the present perfect cannot be used with a specific time marker (unless the time in question is the same as or close to the speaker’s “now”).





dojibear said:


> "Present perfect" covers a time period that starts in the past and ends *right now*. "Simple past" covers a time period that *has ended*. That is the *only* difference between these tenses. For that reason, *many* sentences can use either one.


This is the only clear and nonvague explanation (of the difference between the Simple Past and Present Perfect) I have ever seen. So I want to understand how is it wrong to say "I have eaten breakfast at 7" if the 7a.m. comes into the interval that ends at the moment of a speach (ends right now)? Everything must be OK according to the above guidance.


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## lingobingo

It could only work in a different context.

I’ve had breakfast at 6 am today  · I had breakfast at 6 am today 
Perfect tense inappropriate if this is said later the same day, by which time there’s no direct connection between the *past* event and the moment of speaking — you’re *simply* recounting something that happened earlier, at a specific time, which requires the *past* *simple*. But…

I usually have my first meal of the day at about 8 o’clock, but I _have_ had breakfast at 6 am in the past. I had to whenever I was on the early shift at my last job. 
Perfect tense appropriate because it’s used to talk about past experiences in a person’s life (things that apply to their life up to now), which may be either one-off occurrences or habitual ones.

Have you ever been to Venice? I have! · He has been in prison several times · There has always been rivalry between her and her brother


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## Brigitte_anna

Phil-Olly said:


> "Have you eaten your breakfast?"
> "Yes I have.  And I ate yours as well."
> "My breakfast" is simply a part of the day *which has now passed and recorded as being in a finished state*.  Hence: "Have you...?  Yes, I have."



Doesn't the phrase "which has now passed and recorded as being in a finished state" embody the concept of a Simple Past tense???


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## PaulQ

Brigitte_anna said:


> Doesn't the phrase "which has now passed and recorded as being in a finished state" embody the concept of a Simple Past tense?


You need to re-read post #11 Another take on the present perfect


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## Brigitte_anna

Phil-Olly said:


> "Did you read _War and Peace_?"
> "No, thank you for lending it to me, but I never got round to reading it."
> The question is asked in the simple past tense, because it refers to a specific time period.


The question is about the peroid of time from the moment the book was landed up to the moment of a speach, so the Present Perfect must be used. Right?


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## PaulQ

You are confusing tense created by "to do" and the past tense created by the auxiliary "to have" - do not do this. The forms are not the same.


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## Brigitte_anna

PaulQ said:


> You are confusing tense created by "to do" and the past tense created by the auxiliary "to have" - do not do this. The forms are not the same.


I don't confuse them. I don't understand exactly when to use which. Let's return the example:
"Did you read _War and Peace_?"
"No, thank you for lending it to me, but I never got round to reading it."
The context is that someone lended the book to a friend on Monday. On Sunday they met and he is asking whether a friend had a chance (a time) to read it. He assumes a period of time from Monday up to now - that the context in which Present Perfect should be used:
"Have you read the book?"
"Yes, I have. I read it on Monday"

Or like this:
"Did you read the book on the day I lended it to you?"
"Yes, I did."


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## lingobingo

Brigitte_anna said:


> The question is about the peroid of time from the moment the book was landed up to the moment of a speach, so the Present Perfect must be used. Right?


Obviously the person could not read the book until it was lent (not landed or lended!) to them. But that doesn’t mean you MUST use one tense rather than another when asking whether or not they’ve read it. Which you choose depends on your perspective. The *present* perfect is used from the perspective of *now* (either the actual time of speaking, or whatever time is the present in a particular context, such as a past-tense narrative). The simple past relates to a past action or event with no implied reference to the present.

I lent you a book last month. Have you read it? — implies yet (= as things stand at this moment/as I speak)

I lent you a book last month. Did you read it? — simple past-tense question, no nuance​Note that all the following adverbs are regularly used with perfect tenses: *always*, *ever*, *never*, *already*, *just*, *still*, *yet*, and so too is the preposition/conjunction *until*. Why? Because a perfect tense relates something in the past (either positive or negative) to a present status. For example: I’ve always wanted to do such-and such [and I still want to] · I’ve never done such-and-such [up to now, anyway] · I haven’t got my refund yet · I still haven’t got my refund · I’ve just got my refund · I’ve already got my refund.


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## Brigitte_anna

lingobingo said:


> Which you choose depends on your perspective.


OK, I agree.


lingobingo said:


> I lent you a book last month. Have you read it? — implies yet (= as things stand at this moment/as I speak)​


I agree.


lingobingo said:


> I lent you a book last month. Did you read it? — simple past-tense question, no nuance​


What perspective is used here??? As for me the question "Did you read it?" lacks a reference to a particular time in the past.


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## lingobingo

Yes, it does. Hence “simple”. Why do you think it needs such a reference?


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## Brigitte_anna

lingobingo said:


> Why do you think it needs such a reference?


I just suppose that the very concept of Simple Past tense implies a concrete time (or time period) in the past:

"I wrote an email" - it seems strange to me
"I wrote an email yesterday" - OK

The same with questions:

"Did you read it?" - it seems strange to me
"Did you read it yesterday?" - OK

Time reference may be implicit. If there is neither explicit nor implicit time reference then it seems strange to me.


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## JulianStuart

Brigitte_anna said:


> I just suppose that the very concept of Simple Past tense implies a concrete time (or time period) in the past:
> 
> "I wrote an email" - it seems strange to me
> "I wrote an email yesterday" - OK
> 
> The same with questions:
> 
> "Did you read it?" - it seems strange to me
> "Did you read it yesterday?" - OK



That might explain your reactions to some of the explanations
In those examples, the actual time at which the event occurred is not important, so no time adverbial is needed.


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## Brigitte_anna

dojibear said:


> Did you eat breakfast yet? (today before *now*):



This question seem to contradict to the earlier statement:



dojibear said:


> "Present perfect" covers a time period that starts in the past and ends *right now*. "Simple past" covers a time period that *has ended*.



Right? Maybe that isn't a good example?


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## dojibear

Edit: Maybe you mean that the "before now" comment doesn't match the "did you eat" in the sentence:

_Did you eat breakfast yet? (today before *now*):_

You are correct. I'm sorry that I made this confusing. The "today before now" refers to the word "yet", not to the "did you eat" part.

Since we were discussing "did you eat"/"have you eaten", I shouldn't have written "today before now".


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## kentix

Brigitte_anna said:


> I *have written* a letter this morning. (if it is still the morning)
> He *has produced* ten plays. (if he is still alive and professionally active)
> They *have never traveled* abroad. (if they are still alive and considered capable of traveling)


I just saw this post for the first time today but what interested me was the quoted questions. I'm an AE speaker and mostly agree with Doji (but I got a little lost in the middle there somewhere so I'm not sure I 100% agree and I'm not sure I don't).

With many of these types of sentences, I would be comfortable with both forms. But I'll address these three.

I would have no problem saying "I wrote a letter this morning." The process of writing _that_ letter and that phase of the morning are over. "Earlier this morning" is implicit in the sentence.

I would only say "he has produced 10 plays". There is no evidence that phase is over. When one letter is finished that letter writing process is in the past. When one play is finished, the career of producing plays is not in the past.

The same with the traveling example. Their traveling-capable phase continues. If they were seriously ill with no hope of future travel, then saying "They never traveled abroad" would be fine.

Added: the plumber example
"I fixed your faucet." would be a completely acceptable option to say to the woman, as would "I have fixed your faucet."

("Back there, when I was alone in your kitchen, I fixed your faucet."

If she was standing behind him watching, instead, and he turned to her at the moment it was done, I imagine he would say "I've fixed your faucet." What I really imagine he would say is, "It's all fixed now.")


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## PaulQ

[Past...........................................................][............present............][............................future]

1. [..................Present Perfect...........................................................] -> I have gone to the office (you are now at the office.) You could say "I am at the office."
2. [..................Present Perfect..........................................................................] -> I have gone to the office for five years - you may or may not continue to go to the office
3. [................. Past perfect..........................] I had gone to the office {_[this action has finished]_, and then something else happened (simple past)} -> I had gone to the office and was returning home when I saw Jim. (Note the simple past in the following clauses.)


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## Mnemon

Hello everybody.
I have one question regarding the matter being discussed.

*1.* Once you arrive, give me a call.
*2.* Once you have arrived, give me a call.
*3.* Once you arrived, give me a call.

I think that from the perspective of a BR speaker 1 & 2 are correct. But according to the dentition given by @dojibear in post #3 it seems to me that from the viewpoint of an AM speaker number 3 can also be plausible. Am I right? Or I got it wrong?
Thanks in advance.


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## lingobingo

3 doesn’t work at all. But “once” reads oddly too. I would just use “when”.


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## kentix

Yes, 3 makes no sense. Those sentences are talking about the future and past tense makes no sense applied in that way.

We do use "once" like that.

_Once we get there, we'll decide where to eat.
_
It just means, at that point in time/when that condition is fulfilled. It's a little bit different nuance than "when". It's less "immediate".


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## Brigitte_anna

dojibear said:


> Edit: Maybe you mean that the "before now" comment doesn't match the "did you eat" in the sentence:
> 
> _Did you eat breakfast yet? (today before *now*):_
> 
> You are correct. I'm sorry that I made this confusing. The "today before now" refers to the word "yet", not to the "did you eat" part.
> 
> Since we were discussing "did you eat"/"have you eaten", I shouldn't have written "today before now".



I mean that "yet" makes the whole question imply *a time period that ends right now*. Do AE speakers really ask questions using the simple past + "yet"? For example:

"_Did you eat breakfast yet?_"

If they do, then there is something wrong with the statement:


dojibear said:


> "Present perfect" covers a time period that starts in the past and ends *right now*. "Simple past" covers a time period that *has ended*. That is the *only* difference between these tenses.



This statment means that a time period determines a tense (and a tense determines a time period):
a time period that starts in the past and *ends right now - *the present perfect
a time period that *has ended - *the simple past

Hence this statement requires all questions refering a time period *ending right now* (including questions with "yet") to use the present perfect (and *not* the simple past):

"_Did you eat breakfast yet?_" 
_"Have you eaten breakfast yet?" _

If I'm right, then either AE speakers don't say "_Did you eat breakfast yet?_" or some corrections should be made to the statement about when to use which tense.


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## kentix

AE speakers do say "Did you eat breakfast yet?" They also say "Did you eat breakfast?"


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## Brigitte_anna

kentix said:


> AE speakers do say "Did you eat breakfast yet?" They also say "Did you eat breakfast?"


_
"Did you eat breakfast?" 
_
This question doesn't ask about a time period edning right now, insteadt it asks about some particular time in the past, right?

Conversely, the question

_"Did you eat breakfast yet?"_

does ask about a time period continuing up to now, just like

_"Have you been to Japan?"
_
So why _"Did you eat breakfast yet?" _uses the simple past?


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## kentix

In practical terms, it's asking about a time period. That question would only be asked in the morning and the clock would be assumed to have started when the person being asked woke up. The "breakfast clock" starts over every morning.

So if I ask you that question it means since you woke up have you eaten breakfast. The time period in question starts when you woke up and ends the moment I first see you and you have no food in front of you, which is the same time period covered by "Have you eaten breakfast yet?"


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## JulianStuart

Brigitte_anna said:


> Hence this statement *requires* all questions refering a time period *ending right now* (including questions with "yet") to use the present perfect (and *not* the simple past):
> 
> "_Did you eat breakfast yet?_"
> _"Have you eaten breakfast yet?" _


If you change _requires_ to _allows_, you will understand better The simple past version is simply more common in AE than in BE.


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## Brigitte_anna

JulianStuart said:


> If you change _requires_ to _allows_, you will understand better The simple past version is simply more common in AE than in BE.


But the statement I mentioned imply a *requirement*. Doesn't it?


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## JulianStuart

Brigitte_anna said:


> But the statement I mentioned imply a *requirement*. Doesn't it?


It’s a requirement if you want to use present perfect but you are not _required_ to use it under those circumstances (at least in AE). Don’t forget that context and logic always play a role in communication!


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## Brigitte_anna

kentix said:


> In practical terms, it's asking about a time period. That question would only be asked in the morning and the clock would be assumed to have started when the person being asked woke up. The "breakfast clock" starts over every morning.



It is not important here, we are talking about when a time period ends.



kentix said:


> So if I ask you that question it means since you woke up have you eaten breakfast. The time period in question starts when you woke up and ends the moment I first see you and you have no food in front of you, which is *the same time period covered by "Have you eaten breakfast yet?"*



I agree. And that is exactly the kind of a time period that must use the present perfect accordinly to the statement that was discussed in my post.


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## kentix

Brigitte_anna said:


> And that is exactly the kind of a time period that *must use the present perfect accordinly to the statement that was discussed in my post*.


This is a long thread so can you clarify exactly which statement you are referrng to?


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## Brigitte_anna

JulianStuart said:


> It’s a requirement if you want to use present perfect but you are not _required_ to use it under those circumstances (at least in AE). Don’t forget that context and logic always play a role in communication!


No, it is a requirement if a question considers a time period that continues up to now - this is the meaning of the statement.


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## Brigitte_anna

kentix said:


> This is a long thread so can you clarify exactly which statement you are referrng to?


Yes, of course. 



dojibear said:


> "Present perfect" covers a time period that starts in the past and ends *right now*. "Simple past" covers a time period that *has ended*. That is the *only* difference between these tenses


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## JulianStuart

Brigitte_anna said:


> No, it is a requirement if a question considers a time period that continues up to now - this is the meaning of the statement.


It is NOT a requirement. In AE it it fine to use simple past in that situation. If you wish to use present perfect, the statement says what is required- it does NOT say you MUST use it


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## kentix

_"Simple past covers a time period that has ended."_

_Did you eat breakfast before nine?_
It has to be simple past. The time period in question ended at nine.
_
Did you eat breakfast?
Have you eaten breakfast?_
It can be either one (in AE). The time period in question has ended "now" (or like I said, the moment I realized you weren't/aren't in the process of eating breakfast right in front of me). So it has both extended up to now and ended.

I know your opportunity to eat breakfast without me being aware of it is finished. That opportunity is now in the past. I can ask you "Did you eat breakfast [during that (closed) window of time when I wasn't present]?"

Or I can ask, "Have you eaten breakfast?" if my focus is on the entirety of the morning. Since the time that the  breakfast clock started, up until now, have you put breakfast food in your mouth?


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## Brigitte_anna

JulianStuart said:


> It is NOT a requirement. In AE it it fine to use simple past in that situation. If you wish to use present perfect, the statement says what is required- it does NOT say you MUST use it


Let's consider it step by step, ok?

First of all, one can't want to use the present perfect or the simple past - one can want to ask a question about either a particular time in the past or a time period that continues up to now. Do you agree?

Let's suppose we are interested whether somebody is hungry *"yet"*. *"yet" *means a time period that continues up to now. Do you still agree?

Next, the guidance we are discussing says which tense we *need to use* with a time period that continues up to now:


dojibear said:


> "Present perfect" covers a time period that starts in the past and ends *right now*. "Simple past" covers a time period that *has ended*.


The present perfect! So there we have it!

_"Have you eaten breakfast yet?"_

So how do you come up with the possibility of the simple past tense here?


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## JulianStuart

Brigitte_anna said:


> Let's consider it step by step, ok?
> 
> First of all, one can't want to use the present perfect or the simple past - one can want to ask a question about either a particular time in the past or a time period that continues up to now. Do you agree?
> 
> Let's suppose we are interested whether somebody is hungry "yet". This is a time period that continues up to now. Do you still agree?
> 
> Next, the guidance we are discussing says which tense we *need to use* with a time period that continues up to now:
> 
> The present perfect! So there we have it!
> 
> _"Have you eaten breakfast yet?"_
> 
> So how do you come up with the possibility of the simple past tense here?


Simple: Because that’s what AE speakers say! You keep saying “need” and “require”. That’s obviously wrong. You keep describing the conditions needed to be allowed to use it- they don’t mean you HAVE to use it *in AE.*


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## PaulQ

Brigitte_anna said:


> Let's consider it step by step, ok?


OK, but bear in mind that "Let's = let *us*" and that *us *includes you.

Next, let us consider ""There are no rules in English, only guidance. Some guidance looks like a rule; it probably isn't."



Brigitte_anna said:


> First of all, one can't want to use the present perfect or the simple past - one can want to ask a question about either a particular time in the past or a time period that continues up to now. Do you agree?


Only insomuch as that the verb "to want" is probably inappropriate as speech is broadly done without much "choosing and wanting".

As Julian *pointed out/has pointed out *previously*,* AE and BE differ in this respect. _<- Oo look! both the present perfect and the simple past work!_


Brigitte_anna said:


> Let's suppose we are interested whether somebody is hungry *"yet"*. *"yet" *means a time period that continues up to now. Do you still agree?


No "is" is a stative verb - it does not refer to a duration, merely the static present state.

BE/AE Are you hungry yet -> are you presently at the point at which you are hungry.
AE: Did you eat yet? ~> Did you eat in the immediate past?
BE: Have you eaten yet? ~> Did you eat in the immediate past?


Brigitte_anna said:


> Next, the guidance we are discussing


There we see the *guidance *rather than a prescriptive rule.  Big difference.


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## Brigitte_anna

PaulQ said:


> No "is" is a stative verb - it does not refer to a duration, merely the static present state.


OK, but remember that


PaulQ said:


> "There are no rules in English



As for this


PaulQ said:


> There we see the *guidance *rather than a prescriptive rule. Big difference.


Did you read the whole original statement? Do you really think that the way it was formulated resembles a guidance?


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## kentix

_"Present perfect" covers a time period that starts in the past and ends *right now*. "Simple past" covers a time period that *has ended* *(which can include ending "right now")*._

Does that make it clearer? Present perfect is more restrictive. Simple past is less restrictive. (In this particular case)

You can ask the question either way (in AE) because the condition that each needs is fulfilled.

When you ask the question, you've essentially ended the time period in both cases.


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## PaulQ

Brigitte_anna said:


> Do you really think that the way it was formulated resembles a guidance?


Anything that claims to be a definitive statement of English1 usage is going to have exceptions. This is the essential difference between rules and guidance.

All language evolves. Here, the difference between BE and AE is divergent evolution.

1Or, I suspect, any language.


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## Brigitte_anna

kentix said:


> _"Present perfect" covers a time period that starts in the past and ends *right now*. "Simple past" covers a time period that *has ended* *(which can include ending "right now")*._
> Does that make it clearer?


The whole point of the original statement was the contrasting a time period that continues up to now with a time period that ended in the past. You're just taking the statement and changing its meaning.

By the way, wikipedia says the same:
_
The choice of present perfect or past tense depends on the frame of reference (period or point in time) in which the event is conceived as occurring. If the frame of reference extends to the present time, the present perfect is used.

If the frame of reference is a time in the past, or a period that ended in the past, the past tense is used instead._


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## PaulQ

Brigitte_anna said:


> The whole point of the original statement was the contrasting a time period that continues up to now with a time period that ended in the past. How do you just take the statement and change its meaning. By the way, wikipedia says the same:
> _
> The choice of present perfect or past tense depends on the frame of reference (period or point in time) in which the event is conceived as occurring. If the frame of reference extends to the present time, the present perfect is used.
> 
> If the frame of reference is a time in the past, or a period that ended in the past, the past tense is used instead._


And yet, despite that guidance, in AE, _"Did you have breakfast yet?"_ remains perfectly correct - tell me, how do we explain that?

We must examine the evidence rigorously to reach a conclusion - we must not decide what the conclusion is and then go looking for the evidence to prove our conclusion.

We could say that this is proof - if proof were needed - that humans control speech; speech does not control humans. Evolution in speech continues. To deny evolution is futile and an error. You can quote as many "rules" as you wish, but tomorrow the language may alter.

Protesting and quoting examples doesn't work - nobody listens. It's like protesting about the weather.


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## Brigitte_anna

PaulQ said:


> You can quote as many "rules" as you wish, but tomorrow the language may alter.


No, that is not what I'm doing. What I'm asking for is:


Brigitte_anna said:


> If I'm right, then either AE speakers don't say "_Did you eat breakfast yet?_" or *some corrections should be made to the statement about when to use which tense.*



I'm just asking for a corrected guidance.


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## PaulQ

When in BE speaking countries, say "Have you had breakfast yet?"
When in AE speaking countries, say "Did you have breakfast yet?" or "Have you had breakfast yet?"


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## kentix

Brigitte_anna said:


> The *choice* of present perfect or past tense depends on the frame of reference (period or point in time) in which the event *is conceived as occurring*.


I conceive that you are not eating breakfast at the moment I am talking to you. I therefore conceive that the period in which you could have eaten breakfast without me knowing is in the past. Therefore I choose to ask you "did you eat" during that period.

Adding "yet" is trickier. You can say either sentence without "yet". If you add "yet" it might make more sense with "have you eaten" but doesn't make perfect sense with either. "Yet" is an inherent part of the question because the question can't be about the future.


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## Brigitte_anna

PaulQ said:


> When in BE speaking countries, say "Have you had breakfast yet?"
> When in AE speaking countries, say "Did you have breakfast yet?" or "Have you had breakfast yet?"


From the same article on wikipedia:

_With already or yet, traditional usage calls for the present perfect: Have you eaten yet? Yes, I've already eaten. However, current *informal* American speech *tends* to use the simple past: Did you eat yet? Yes, I ate already.
_
The article clearly states that this is just an execption from the rule. It is used in informal speach.


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## Brigitte_anna

kentix said:


> I conceive that you are not eating breakfast at the moment I am talking to you. I therefore conceive that the period in which you could have eaten breakfast without me knowing is in the past. Therefore I choose to ask you "did you eat" during that period.
> 
> Adding "yet" is trickier. You can say either sentence without "yet". If you add "yet" it might make more sense with "have you eaten" but doesn't make perfect sense with either. "Yet" is an inherent part of the question because the question can't be about the future.


_
already_ and _yet _are exceptions from the rule_:

With already or yet, traditional usage calls for the present perfect: Have you eaten yet? Yes, I've already eaten. However, current informal American speech tends to use the simple past: Did you eat yet? Yes, I ate already.
_
Can you give other (not using already or yet) examples that use the simple past while refer to the time period continuing up to now?


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## PaulQ

AE: Did you see that movie yet?


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## kentix

_"informal American speech"_

I think you might be misunderstanding "informal". It doesn't mean slang it means in non-formal situations, i.e. you're not giving a speech in front of a an audience. You're having an everyday conversation. That includes about 95% of all usage.

Here is an ngram comparing the two uses for American English. Ngrams look at written words, especially books, so you can expect things to skew more formal. Even so, "did you eat" outranks "have you eaten".

Google Ngram Viewer

Here's the British English version.
Google Ngram Viewer

In that case, "have you eaten" tops "did you eat".

Examples:

"Was the mail delivered?"

[Boom!]
"Did that plane crash?

[Bigger boom!]
Did that nuclear bomb explode?

The truly informal version is:
Djeet?

Urban Dictionary: Djeet


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