# sarcophagus



## Vukabular

Which etymology is better?
From: sarcophagus | Origin and meaning of sarcophagus by Online Etymology Dictionary
*sarcophagus (n.)*
c. 1600, "type of stone used for coffins," from Latin sarcophagus, from Greek sarkophagos "limestone used for coffins," literally "flesh-eating," in reference to the supposed action of this type of limestone (quarried near Assos in Troas, hence the Latin lapis Assius) in quickly decomposing the body, from sarx (genitive sarkos) "flesh" (see sarcasm) + phagein "to eat" (from PIE root *bhag- "to share out, apportion; to get a share").
Or:
*sar+cophag+us
sar *car, tsar, tzar, Caesar, kaiser, sah - "the ruler"
*cophag  *Serbian* kovčeg "*cuffin"
*-us *Latin suffix forming adjectives

Serbian:
*kovčeg* "coffin" < *kov* "product made by hammering" < *kovač* "blacksmith" < *kovani kamen* "stone formed by hammering"...


----------



## symposium

what...? "Sarkophagos" is an ancient Greek word, how can its etymology be modern? How can an ancient Greek word come from modern Serbian words?


----------



## Vukabular

*coffin (n.)*
early 14c., "chest or box for valuables," from Old French cofin "sarcophagus," earlier "basket, coffer" (12c., Modern French coffin), from Latin cophinus "basket, hamper" (source of Italian cafano, Spanish cuebano "basket"), from Greek kophinos "a basket," which is of uncertain origin.


----------



## Vukabular

symposium said:


> what...? "Sarkophagos" is an ancient Greek word, how can its etymology be modern? How can an ancient Greek word come from modern Serbian words?


Proto-Slavic
**cěsãřь* m "emperor, king" 
Old Church Slavonic
*ковьчегъ*  m "box, coffer, urn, ark"


----------



## entangledbank

An even better one: _zahar_ "old" + _kopa_ "spirit, liqueur" + _heg(aldi)_ "flight" + _gose_ "hungry": "The old spirit is hungry to flee."


----------



## Vukabular

Vukabular said:


> *sarcophagus (n.)*
> c. 1600, "type of stone used for coffins," from Latin sarcophagus, from Greek sarkophagos "limestone used for coffins," literally "flesh-eating," in reference to the supposed action of this type of limestone (quarried near Assos in Troas, hence the Latin lapis Assius) in *quickly decomposing the body,* from sarx (genitive sarkos) "flesh" (see sarcasm) + phagein "to eat" (from PIE root *bhag- "to share out, apportion; to get a share").


Isn't it a function of the sarcophagus to protect the body from decomposing?


----------



## Perseas

Sarcophagus
The "limestone used for coffins" 





> was thought to rapidly facilitate the decomposition of the flesh of corpses contained within it due to the chemical properties of the limestone itself


Hence the name sarcophagus for other sarcophagus-like coffins that were made by other materials.


----------



## Vukabular

Perseas said:


> Sarcophagus
> The "limestone used for coffins"
> Hence the name sarcophagus for other sarcophagus-like coffins that were made by other materials.


The most luxurious sarcophagi were of marble, less expensive coffins were made of limestone


----------



## OBrasilo

The word _sarcophagus_ is definitely from Ancient Greek, where _phagein_ means to eat, to consume. The _-us_ is the Latin nominative singular ending, cognate with Ancient Greek _-os_.

Also, _kovčeg_ is a loan from Turkic, it also exists in Slovenian as _kovček_, which means suitcase.

Also, I suspect the English word _coffin_ is a cognate (or better, a loan of the French _couffin_, which is a cognate) of the Italian word _cofano_, which means some sort of box.


----------



## Vukabular

There is no meat eating limestone.  Lime eats meat, but in order to produce it limestone must be exposed to high temperature, but in this way small pieces of no more than 2-3 kilograms are produced.


----------



## Treaty

Vukabular said:


> Proto-Slavic, Old Church Slavonic


"proto" and "old" don't really mean old in this context. They are simply older than other Slavic languages. They are pretty young compared to Greek and Latin. The idea that ancient Greek had borrowed anything from proto-Slavic or any old Slavic language is almost absurd. These languages haven't developed yet in the time of ancient Greek. 


Vukabular said:


> There is no meat eating limestone


It is irrelevant whether there is such a stone or not. It is important that the Greek thought it existed in Turkey, and hence they called it the flesh eating stone (_lithos sarko-phagos_), explicitly for this reason. The Greek believed in a lot of stuff, many of which were absurd, and named them according to their observation (e.g. _hippo_potamus are river *horses* according to the Greek).


----------



## Vukabular

I don't want to prove if the hen is older or an egg because it doesn't lead anywhere. Plato said in his work "Cratylus" that the Greeks had taken a lot of words from the barbarians, the indigenous population from the space that the Greeks inhabited which is a normal thing. One of the words he mentions is *zugon* “yoke” which is said to have originated from older word *duogon* and that it is pointless to seek the etymology of such a word in Greek. The Serbian word could be *dvogon* literally "two (ox, horse or something) drive" from *dva* "two" and *gon* from verb *goniti* "to drive, impel, chase, pursue, follow hunt". E. g. gonič, nagon, pogon, uzgon... Some of the things you didn't know was that in the 19th century, at the session of the Vienna-Berlin Congress, Serbia was forced to give up the name of the Illyrians and the calendar according to which now is 5728 year.


----------



## Perseas

Before serving as a qualifier for the limestone (_ἡ σαρκόφαγος λίθος_), _σαρκόφαγος (m.f.)/σαρκόφαγον (n.)_ was already used as an adjective meaning _carnivorous _(e.g.aninal, insect etc.) or _cannibal_.
It's an adjective that is still in use in Mod. Greek.
Its etymology is anything but obscure: noun _σάρξ>*σαρκ*ός_ (flesh) + inf. aor. *φαγ*εῖν (eat).
_σαρκοφαγία_ is the noun, _σαρκοφαγέω_ is the verb.
_σαρκο-_ and _-φαγος_ are also used in building other composed words, like "*σαρκο*βόρος", "παμ*φάγος*".


----------



## Treaty

Vukabular said:


> I don't want to prove if the hen is older or an egg because it doesn't lead anywhere.


It's not the issue of egg or chicken, it's a simple math question. The terms Proto-Slavic or Old Church Slavonic are *made up* and defined by modern linguists. Both names refer to languages spoken *after *ancient Greek. This is a part of their definition. So, simply, it is mathematically impossible for a them to loan anything to ancient Greek. The point is because Proto-Slavic is younger than both Greek and Latin, the existence of a word in Proto-Slavic doesn't guarantee its Slavic authenticity. Whatever language the linguistic ancestors of Slavic people spoke before should have another name.


Vukabular said:


> the Illyrians


Yes, Illyrian, a language not directly related to Slavic languages, and was apparently the only native IE language in Balkan. Its closest living language is probably Albanian/Kosovan. Like how tens of different languages were disappeared after Turkic speakers migrated to and ruled over Turkey, many native languages of Balkan disappeared when Slavic people came there. Balkan People gradually began to speak the language their new overlords. This has commonly happened everywhere.


----------



## Vukabular

That etymology makes sense if applied to the word *καρχαρίας* (karcharías) "shark" because there is semantics but it is lacking in the word sarcophagus where there is no evidence that they believed there was a meat-eating stone in Turkey and as I said before, the role of the sarcophagus is to keep the body from decay and its role is from ancient Egypt to the late Middle Ages, from mummies to the remains of Christian saints (usually kings or tsars) .


----------



## Vukabular

Treaty said:


> Yes, Illyrian, a language not directly related to Slavic languages, and was apparently the only native IE language in Balkan. Its closest living language is probably Albanian/Kosovan. Like how tens of different languages were disappeared after Turkic speakers migrated to and ruled over Turkey, many native languages of Balkan disappeared when Slavic people came there. Balkan People gradually began to speak the language their new overlords. This has commonly happened everywhere.


The Albanians were brought from Sicily to the Balkans by *George Maniakes*  a prominent Eastern Roman general in the 11th century, he was the catepan of Italy in 1042. He is known as *Gyrgir* in Scandinavian sagas. Before coming to Sicily they lived in Albania in the Caucasus ...


----------



## Perseas

Vukabular said:


> there is no evidence that they believed there was a meat-eating stone in Turkey


Of course, there is. In ancient sources it was named "_ἡ σαρκόφαγος λίθος__".



			a limestone (of which the best kind was quarried at Assos in the Troad), remarkable for consuming the flesh of corpses laid in it, Erastus ap.Poll.10.150, Dsc.5.124, Cels.4.31.7, Plin.HN2.211, 36.131
		
Click to expand...

_


----------



## nimak

Treaty said:


> Yes, Illyrian, a language not directly related to Slavic languages, and was apparently the only native IE language in Balkan. Its closest living language is probably Albanian/Kosovan.



Can you list 10 Albanian words of Illyrian origin?


----------



## Vukabular

nimak said:


> Can you list 10 Albanian words of Illyrian origin?


I don't speak Albanian, but if I look at the geographical map of Albania, almost all of the toponyms are Slavic.


----------



## Treaty

nimak said:


> Can you list 10 Albanian words of Illyrian origin?


I didn't say Albanian is a descendent of Illyrian. I said there is a chance of them being close relatives.


----------

