# ich freilich denke



## Löwenfrau

Kontext:

»Glauben Sie, klar und zweifellos aus ihrer eigenen Definition von Gott beweisen zu können, daß ein solches Ens existiere? Ich freilich denke, daß Definitionen einzig und allein Begriffe unsres Kopfes enthalten; daß aber unser Kopf vieles begreift, was nicht existiert, und äußerst fruchtbar ist in der Vermehrung und Steigerung der einmal begriffenen Dinge: also kann ich nicht einsehen, wie ich von meinem Gottesbegriff zur Existenz Gottes kommen soll.«

Maybe here "freilich" means that he is sure of his thought? Something like "I surely think..."?


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## manfy

Yes, the literal meaning of 'surely' exists, but in English this does not convey the logical flow of thoughts very well.
"I think" in itself is already an assertion and "I surely think" makes that slightly stronger, but it's actually redundant and not idiomatic.
I believe that "I, on the other hand, think ..." is semantically closer to the German expression, because this German phrase is mostly used as an introduction of a contrasting opinion.


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## Schimmelreiter

_I, however, think ..._


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## bearded

manfy said:


> this German phrase is mostly used as an introduction of a contrasting opinion.


I know that I am somewhat influenced by the Austrian/Southgerman usage of _freilich = of course _(I recall expressions like ''aber/na freilich!''), and therefore I wonder if in Mauthner's expression _Ich freilich denke _the 'hidden' meaning could'nt be ''since my opinions are well-known, I of course/naturally think...''.
In this case, and not to completely exclude an adversative meaning, I would render _Ich freilich denke _as _But I, of course, think..._


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## Hutschi

If you consider the contex, it builds a contrast. Die anderen denken - ich freilich denke ...  
So I think "ich aber denke ..." or "Ich jedoch denke" is quite appropriate. I think the hidden meaning is in expanded form: "Ich denke aber anders, nämlich dass Definitionen einzig und allein Begriffe unsres Kopfes enthalten ..."  

 bearded man: I think it is ''since my opinions are consistent, I of course/naturally think...''.


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## bearded

Hutschi said:


> ''since my opinions are consistent, I of course/naturally think


Yes, consistent and also known to the reader who will then consider my viewpoint natural/obvious.


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## Kajjo

In contemporary standard German the straight-forward translation is: _I, However, think...
_
In dated, Southern German dialects, it can also mean: _Naturally, I think..._


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## bearded

Kajjo said:


> In dated, Southern German dialects it can also mean _Naturally_


But I heard it last summer in Bavaria: _Enthält das Zimmer ein Zustellbett? Aber freilich! _And the conversation was in Standard German, not dialect - only with a bit of Bavarian accent_._


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## Hutschi

This is another usage. It means "O, yes, of course!" (Na klar!)
"Freilich" is often used in German especially in former dialect regions and in colloquial language style. It is extremely seldom used in the North.
I heard it regularly in Thüringen/Thuringia but never in Sachsen/Saxony - except from my relatives.

I saw it in written language extremely seldom, and mostly in older documents.

Duden gives both meanings we discussed here. Duden | freilich | Rechtschreibung, Bedeutung, Definition, Synonyme, Herkunft
While the "however"-meaning is seldom and dated - but it is not regionally, the "of course" meaning is alife, but restricted to the south.
(Beispiel: Möchtest du noch etwas Tee? - Du kannst mir freilich noch etwas Tee einschenken.)

My Grandpa often used "Freilich!" instead of "Yes!".
"Möchtest du mitkommen?" - "Freilich"
"Du kommst freilich mit!" = "Natürlich kommst du mit!"
As written - only in the south, but there it is used quite often - and not only in dialects.


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## berndf

bearded man said:


> But I heard it last summer in Bavaria: _Enthält das Zimmer ein Zustellbett? Aber freilich! _And the conversation was in Standard German, not dialect - only with a bit of Bavarian accent_._


It can always have both meaning, in all areas. But in Northern use, the meaning _surely _is less frequent and sounds dated. This is usage variation within standard language and has indeed nothing to do with dialects.

Having said that, one might argue that the currency of the use in Upper German dialects is what keeps it alive also in Southern Standard German. Possible; I don't know.


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## Kajjo

@BM: Well, Bavarian accent or dialect ... this is not a sharp border, isn't it? Your sentence sounds strongly Bavarian and _freilich_ appears to be an important word for Bavarians anyway.

Usage of _freilich _in this manner is dialect for me. No standard speaker would use it as far as I know, only humorously maybe.


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## berndf

Kajjo said:


> @BM: Well, Bavarian accent or dialect ... this is not a sharp border, isn't it? Your sentence sounds strongly Bavarian and _freilich_ appears to be an important word for Bavarians anyway.
> 
> Usage of _freilich _in this manner is dialect for me. No standard speaker would use it as far as I know, only humorously maybe.


You could equally say the *non*-usage of _freilich=surely_ is dialectal, viz. northern dialectal. It is only a matter of personal perspective.


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## Kajjo

@berndf: What is? Freilich sounds typically Bavarian to me and probably to 99% of non-Southerners. It actually is an important word for Bavarians, at least it is used quite frequently. So much is true anyway.

I am very sure, only dialectal usage keeps "freilich" alive and it's usage is always somewhat dialectal to me. Nobody without dialectal background does use it.

No nation-wide news speaker would use it. It's obviously considered non-standard by TV editors.

The reason, Bavarians use it as part of whatever you call standard, is solely that it is an important word in Bavarian dialect.


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## berndf

Kajjo said:


> No nation-wide news speaker would use it.


No news bulletin would contain the word in any meaning.


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## Kajjo

This turned once more into a nonsense discussion about dialect. Again and again.

Call and define it as what you like: The usage of _freilich _is, in real-life practice, restricted to speakers with a dialectal (Southern) background. If someone wants to speak fine standard German, he does not use this word. A learner of German should minimise regional vocabulary.


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## Hutschi

(Edit: shorten to essentials)

Hi Kajjo,  I know it from fränkisch/itzgründisch - and there it is not only used in the dialect but in (regional) standard colloquial language. 

Grimms Wörterbuch gives lots of examples, and all meanings under 2 and 3 are well established there, too. Wörterbuchnetz - Deutsches Wörterbuch von Jacob Grimm und Wilhelm Grimm

I do not quote the whole because: 1. it is too long, 2. to avoid to become off topic.

But on topic may be: "in folgenden stellen ist freilich unverkennbar versichernd: ein mensch kan ja nicht machen, das im gleich sei und dennoch ein gott sei, denn weil er sterblich ist, so macht er freilich einen todten mit seinen gottlosen henden." (very old spelling)

_"Ich freilich denke"_ - has also the connotation "versichernd" (reassuring/assuring).
_"Ich aber denke, das versichere ich, ..."

---
Contemporary usage in News:

«Der persönliche Wohlstand war freilich nie eine Triebfeder» (Switzerland)
«Der persönliche Wohlstand war freilich nie eine Triebfeder»
Here it has kept the "versichernde" meaning, too - as in the original topic. (Ich freilich denke ... Ich bin es, der das denkt.)_


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## bearded

Kajjo said:


> Bavarian accent or dialect ... this is not a sharp border


Sorry for being polemical, but I think you wrote something not very accurate there.  For example, you can pronounce the sentence _Ich weiß immer noch nicht..._with a (strong) Bavarian accent (weiß similar to wè-iß, immer with two long m...), but if you say _I woass imma no net.. _that would be dialect.


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## Kajjo

bearded man said:


> Sorry for being polemic, but I think you wrote something not very accurate there.  For example, you can pronounce the sentence _Ich weiß immer noch nicht..._with a (strong) Bavarian accent (weiß similar to wè-iß, immer with two long m...), but if you say _I woass imma no net.. _that would be dialect.


Yes, you are right, that accent and dialect are two distinct issues and in some cases they can be clearly distinguished.

However, my personal experience in Bavaria is, that the border between accent and dialect is quite vague. There are more than enough speakers, that say some words in dialect and others just with accent. For example, "net" is quite common even if they somehow believe to speak "standard", also "woass" and the like is not rare, even if grammar and wording is otherwise standard. It is difficult for me to define the talking of most Bavarians as clearly accent or dialect. It's in-between in most cases. That's what I wanted to say with the quote you cited.


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## berndf

Kajjo said:


> The usage of _freilich _is, in real-life practice, restricted to speakers with a dialectal (Southern) background. If someone wants to speak fine standard German, he does not use this word.


No, I am afraid. You cannot declare your own regional use as the only "fine" one.

To avoid any misunderstanding: In the given sentence, the interpretation _freilich=however, admittedly_ is completely unambiguous also in the South. The meaning _freilich=surely, of course_ exists in contexts like this:
"Kommst Du auch zur Weihnachtsfeier?"
"Ja, freilich".​There is nothing dialectal about this dialogue. Duden marks this usage as _besonders süddeutsch_ (_primarily southern German_). This description is perfect (and is, by the way, consistent with what I wrote in #10).


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## Hutschi

Another synonyme:
Ich freilich denke - ich indes denke. (English also nearly "however".)

"Indes" stronger gives the contrast to the others. "Freilich" focuses more on "Ich" (it's me) amplifying that *I* think in another way.


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## Kajjo

@berndf: Die Antwort "Ja, freilich." ist NICHT überregional üblich. Die Verwendung entstammt heutzutage nur noch einem dialektalem Hintergrund. Ich sehe sie allenfalls im weitesten Sinne als standardsprachlich an. Aber dir sei deine Auffassung natürlich unbenommen. Mir aber auch.


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## berndf

Kajjo said:


> Mir aber auch.


Natürlich ist es dir. Was aber gar nicht geht, ist anderen Dein eigenes regional geprägtes Sprachgefühl aufzwingen:


Kajjo said:


> If someone wants to speak fine standard German, he does not use this word.


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## Kajjo

@berndf: Ich rate auch keinem Deutschlernenden, typisch norddeutsche Begriffe zu verwenden, wenn sie überregional unüblich sind. Warum sollte es nicht erlaubt sein, hier ein Wort klar als regional zu markieren? Auch ist es eine Tatsache, dass Sprecher, die dieses Wort regelmäßig verwenden, fast immer einen dialektalen Hintergrund haben. Fakten muss man schon nennen dürfen.


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## berndf

Kajjo said:


> Fakten muss man schon nennen dürfen.


Und es ist faktisch falsch zu behaupten, ein um Standardsprachlichkeit bemühter Sprecher würde diese Verwendung vermeiden. Ein solcher Konsens existiert schlicht und einfach nicht. Diese Behauptung gilt nur für jüngere norddeutsche Sprecher und ist nicht verallgemeinerbar, schon gar nicht auf einen Autor, der in Österreich-Ungarn geboren wurde und aufwuchs.

Regional bevorzugte standardsprachliche Ausdrücke unterscheiden sich von regionalsprachlichen dadurch, dass bei letzteren ein (weitgehender) Konsens über die nicht-Standardsprachlichkeit unter gebildeten Sprechern besteht. So würde ein Bayer wohl von einer _Zwiderwurzn_ reden, aber standardsprachlich natürlich einen _Sauertopf _oder _Griesgram _schreiben oder aber _Zwiderwurzn_ zumindest in Anführungszeichen setzen, um die unterschiedliche Sprachebene anzudeuten.

Da diese Bedeutung aber im gegebenen Satz ohnehin keine Rolle spielt, ist dies im Kontext dieses Threads aber eigentlich auch egal.


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## Kajjo

Wer verwendet _freilich _ohne einen dialektalen, süddeutschen Hintergrund?


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## berndf

Kajjo said:


> Wer verwendet _freilich _ohne einen dialektalen, süddeutschen Hintergrund?


Die Frage könnte ich genauso gut umdrehen ("Wer ohne norddeutschen regionalsprachlichen Hintergrund würde die Standardsprachlichkeit ablehnen?"). So kommen wir nicht weiter.

Es gibt einfach Fälle, wo kein Konsens existiert. Und dieser ist so einer. Duden beschreibt den aktuellen Stand vollkommen korrekt.


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## Löwenfrau

Das ist eine interessante Diskussion, aber für unseren Kontext, ich glaube, ich könnte es doch im Sinne "certainly"/"naturally" benutzen. Vielleicht auch "clearly", "expressively"?


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## Schimmelreiter

Definitely not.
_I, however, think ..._
Why trustest thou me not?


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## Löwenfrau

Schimmelreiter said:


> Definitely not.
> _I, however, think ..._
> Why trustest thou me not?



I trust thou , I just got confused with the whole discussion and the many answers...

Just one thing: "however" can mean "anyway" too. You mean as "nevertheless", "although"?


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## Schimmelreiter

The only alternative I can think of is _I think, though, that ... _but I'd stick with _however.
_
PS
Or a mundane _but_: _But I think that ..._


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## ablativ

I think the meaning of _but _is mainly adversative, while _however _has a more concessive touch - as has _freilich._


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## Schimmelreiter

Depends on stress: _But *I* think that ...
_
As this is written language, it's indeed inappropriate.


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## berndf

Löwenfrau said:


> I trust thou , I just got confused with the whole discussion and the many answers...
> 
> Just one thing: "however" can mean "anyway" too. You mean as "nevertheless", "although"?


I was afraid you would. That's why I wrote this:


berndf said:


> To avoid any misunderstanding: In the given sentence, the interpretation _freilich=however, admittedly_ is completely unambiguous also in the South. The meaning _freilich=surely, of course_ exists in contexts like this:
> "Kommst Du auch zur Weihnachtsfeier?"
> "Ja, freilich".


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## Löwenfrau

berndf said:


> I was afraid you would. That's why I wrote this:





The confusion is on me


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