# aveo scire



## half monty

I was going through the French Wiktionary and it gave this sample sentence for "avere" (to crave):

aveō scīre

But my knowledge of Latin tells me that the finite verb should come at the end. Shouldn't it have been "scire aveo" instead?


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## Agró

Not necessarily.

Cicero, _Ad Atticum_, lib.1, Epist. 15,
_*Aveo scire quid agas.*_


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## whir77

half monty said:


> I was going through the French Wiktionary and it gave this sample sentence for "avere" (to crave):
> 
> aveō scīre
> 
> But my knowledge of Latin tells me that the finite verb should come at the end. Shouldn't it have been "scire aveo" instead?



Although Latin has common patterns for syntax, it also has syntactic flexibility- you can place a word anywhere in a sentence. 

"Aliquid tibi volo dicere" Something to you I want to tell;
"Dicere tibi aliquid volo" To tell you something I want;
"Volo dicere tibi aliquid" I want to tell you something.

They all mean "I want to tell you something."


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## half monty

Thanks.
I think the default word order would be:

Aliquid tibi dicere volo. (or perhaps Tibi aliquid dicere volo)

Am I right?
The finite verb (i.e. the one that is not an infinitive) comes at the end by default. If there is an infinitive in the sentence, it comes immediately before the finite verb by default.


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## whir77

half monty said:


> Thanks.
> I think the default word order would be:
> 
> Aliquid tibi dicere volo. (or perhaps Tibi aliquid dicere volo)
> 
> Am I right?
> The finite verb (i.e. the one that is not an infinitive) comes at the end by default. If there is an infinitive in the sentence, it comes immediately before the finite verb by default.



Latin isn't set to a default. Ancient Latin stylistically wrote verbs in a more or less general order, usually with the verb at the end of a sentence. Aliquid tibi dicere volo is only one style of writing. Other styles appear in various texts.


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## half monty

Thanks!


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## Scholiast

salvete omnes!



half monty said:


> But my knowledge of Latin tells me that the finite verb should come at the end. Shouldn't it have been "scire aveo" instead?



Just to refine matters (hinted at, but not explained, by Agró in his post # 2). In a simple (that is in the grammatically technical sense) sentence, the default position for the verb is indeed at the end, though for rhetorical point or emphasis this may vary. In compound sentences (that is, those involving dependent or subordinate clauses), the main verb (usually indeed coming at the end of its own, main, clause) is regularly followed by the subordinate clause(s). _aveo scire_, though brief, is an example of this, as is Agro's _aveo scire quid agas_, which despite consisting of only four words actually has two levels of subordination, _scire_ dependent on _aveo _and _quid agas_ dependent on _scire_.

_amicus mihi persuasit ne id facerem_ = 
My friend persuaded me [main clause, with verb at end] that I should not do that [subordinate clause, also with verb at the end _of that clause_].

I hope this is helpful.

Σ


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## half monty

It does help, but I don't understand how "scire" in "aveo scire" is a dependent (i.e. subordinate) clause. In fact, it doesn't seem to be a clause at all.


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## Scholiast

@halfmonty # 8, salve!

OK I was perhaps too hasty there. Most grammar-books would call this _scire_ a 'prolative infinitive'. My thought was that an infinitive cannot normally* be the main verb of a sentence, for it must depend on another, as here; and comparable with _avere _("to be eager") in the given example would be thoughts such as "to be able (to)", "to prefer", "to manage", "to contrive" &c. But in a sentence such as 'I want to learn the Latin language as thoroughly as possible', it is hard not to regard 'to learn the Latin language as thoroughly as possible' as a clause in its own right. It would not be monstrous to call this a 'prolative' clause.

*In the historians (Livy, Sallust, Tacitus) there is a phenomenon known as the 'historic infinitive', which functions as if it were an imperfect indicative.

Σ


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## half monty

If I have understood you correctly, when a finite (i.e. conjugated) verb and an infinitive exist in the same sentence, and the infinitive completes the meaning of the finite verb, then the default order is finite verb followed by infinitive.

For example, "volo volare" (I want to fly) and "possum sentire" (I can feel) are better than "volare volo" and "sentire possum" respectively. Am I correct?


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## Scholiast

salvete de novo!



half monty said:


> If I have understood you correctly, when a finite (i.e. conjugated) verb and an infinitive exist in the same sentence, and the infinitive completes the meaning of the finite verb, then the default order is finite verb followed by infinitive



I would hesitate before saying that this is the 'default' order, but without looking for chapter and verse, I think it is fair to say that it is appreciably commoner than _vice versa_.

That is not to say that _possum sentire_ is in any way 'better' than _sentire possum_, any more than 'I do not know where he is' is any 'better' than 'Where he is I do not know' in English. Cognitively and grammatically, they amount to the same thing (though not rhetorically or poetically, of course).

Σ


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