# Proto-Germanic *klutto "clot" and Semitic root g-l-d "clot"



## CyrusSH

We have Hebrew root ג ל ד (g-l-d) and Arabic root ج ل ط (j-l-t) with the meaning of "clot", the Germanic word has no clear etymology: clot | Origin and meaning of clot by Online Etymology Dictionary We see _g>k_ and _d>t_ sound changes in Germanic, is it a loanword from Semitic?


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## berndf

The root meaning of g-l-d is _tough (as leather)_, not _clot_; as a noun it means _skin_. The Germanic word can safely be connected to the PIE root _gel-_, which means _to be cold_, _to freeze. _



CyrusSH said:


> ج ل ط (j-l-t)


This is a wrong transcription. The Arabic cognate of גֶּלֶד is جِلْد (_skin, leather_)


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## CyrusSH

berndf said:


> The root meaning of g-l-d is _tough (as leather)_, not _clot_; as a noun it means _skin_. The Germanic word can safely be connected to the PIE root _gel-_, which means _to be cold_, _to freeze. _
> 
> This is a wrong transcription. The Arabic cognate of גֶּלֶד is جِلْد (_skin, leather_)



We have discussed about proto-IE *_gel-_ in this thread: Indo-European words for "cold" and "extreme cold" (closed for moderation) a proto-IE root for just Germanic and Latin.

gelato - Wiktionary: Borrowed from Italian gelato (“ice cream”), from Latin gelātus, derived from gelū (“frost, chill”), ultimately from the Proto-Indo-European *gel- (“cold”). 

Etymology - Wikipedia: According to Ghil'ad Zuckermann, the co-etymon of the Israeli word glida "ice cream" is the Hebrew root gld "clot", see p. 132, Zuckermann, Ghil'ad (2003).

I think the Latin word is again a loanword from a Semitic language, like Phoenician.


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## berndf

CyrusSH said:


> Etymology - Wikipedia: According to Ghil'ad Zuckermann, the co-etymon of the Israeli word glida "ice cream" is the Hebrew root gld "clot", see p. 132, Zuckermann, Ghil'ad (2003).


In another forum someone described your erratic jumping to whatever arguments suits you as "desperate flailing". What do, for goodness sake, Modern Hebrew neologisms matter in any of this.


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## CyrusSH

berndf said:


> In another forum someone described your erratic jumping to whatever arguments suits you as "desperate flailing". What do, for goodness sake, Modern Hebrew neologisms matter in any of this.



I don't talk about modern Italian and Hebrew words but the semantic development of original words, both of them refer to "coagulation", not "freezing".


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## berndf

CyrusSH said:


> I don't talk about modern Italian and Hebrew words but the semantic development of original words, both of them refer to "coagulation", not "freezing".


You don't mean this seriously, now? Of course this is about Modern Israeli Hebrew and the influences it has taken and not about any "semantic development of original words".


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## Treaty

berndf said:


> The Germanic word can safely be connected to the PIE root _gel-_, which means _to be cold_, _to freeze. _


Isn't it the other IE *_gel- _"round, to curl, ball"?


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## CyrusSH

I don't know what you want to prove, there is also Syriac _glada_ "to freeze , to congeal , to harden into ice": Search Entry and Arabic _jolta_ "clot, lump": Translation and Meaning of جلطة In English, English Arabic Dictionary of  terms Page 1 According to etymonline, _clot_ is from Proto-Germanic *_klutto-_ and originally meant "a round mass, lump", probably related to _clod_. Do these words relate to each other or not?


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## berndf

Treaty said:


> Isn't it the other IE *_gel- _"round, to curl, ball"?


You mean as in _Kugel_? That would be_ *geu-/*gū- _with a _-g-_ extension. DWDS              –                Kugel


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## berndf

CyrusSH said:


> Arabic _jolta_ "clot, lump":


The transcription is still wrong.


CyrusSH said:


> Syriac _glada_ "to freeze , to congeal


Syriac is a version of Aramaic full of Latin and Greek loans as it developed within the Roman Empire. That means next to nothing. Aramaic has also גלדא = _skin_, which is much more in line with the normal Semitic meaning.


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## Treaty

berndf said:


> You mean as in _Kugel_? That would be_ *geu-/*gū- _with a _-g-_ extension. DWDS              –                Kugel


PIE *_gelu _(according to Lyubotski, it is the root of PG *_klewan_ "clew"; he doesn't have an entry for *_klutt_- though).


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## berndf

Treaty said:


> PIE *_gelu _(according to Lyubotski, it is the root of PG *_klewan_ "clew"; he doesn't have an entry for *_klutt_- though).


I read_ *gléuH_- and not _*gelu-_.

_Leiden Indo-European Etymological Dictionary Series, Volume II, Etymological Dictionary of Proto-Germanic, Leiden-Boston 2013, p.292._


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## CyrusSH

berndf said:


> The transcription is still wrong.



OK, julta: 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





It is similar to both Proto-Germanic *_klutto_ and *_kludda_: clod | Origin and meaning of clod by Online Etymology Dictionary


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## Treaty

berndf said:


> I read_ *gléuH_- and not _*gelu-_.
> 
> _Leiden Indo-European Etymological Dictionary Series, Volume II, Etymological Dictionary of Proto-Germanic, Leiden-Boston 2013, p.292._


Thanks. Back to the topic, can't it be the root for *klutt-?


CyrusSH said:


> OK, julta:


Still the wrong transcription. It doesn't matter anyway. You have already accepted that *klutta cannot be related to this Arabic word in post 3.


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## CyrusSH

Treaty said:


> Still the wrong transcription. It doesn't matter anyway. You have already accepted that *klutta cannot be related to this Arabic word in post 3.



However I assumed that berndf is right about the origin of the Germanic word but I just talked about the Latin word, I don't see a similar semantic development about the Germanic word.


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## Treaty

Just one post before mine you were still suggestively talking about the "similarity" between the Germanic and Arabic words. So, please don't pretend you have accepted anything. Anyway, my point was that you didn't accept a PIE (or EU-IE) root for Latin gelu- and Germanic *klutta- because they are attested only in two branches; fair enough. However, by the same logic you:

can't accept there is a Semitic/W-Semitic root _g-l-ṭ_ (because there is only one language with such root, Arabic; you cannot reconstruct further, unless you change the meaning to "reject" or similar, to fit Aramaic _g-l-ṭ; _which then becomes irrelevant to "clot" and Germanic).
even if there was such a root, you can't say it is related to Germanic; because there are still only two languages, Germanic and Semitic (Latin gelu- doesn't fit because it doesn't have the third letter). 
The broader point is that you can't have this rule of "only two" for Germanic x IE but not for Germanic x Semitic or Germanic x W-Iranian. In other words, almost every single word you have been asking in this forum falls in this category of "only two" rule, therefore you cannot reconstruct any relationship between Germanic and Semitic, or Germanic and Iranian (except the shared IE ancestry and later "Scythian" loans, of course).


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## CyrusSH

I agree that there can be other possibilities about similar words between Germanic and just Arabic, like Old Norse _fíll_ "elephant", but about this word, as I mentioned in the post #3, Hebrew root _gld_ also means "clot", so there can be a common Semitic root. You should also consider that I have also considered Germanic sound changes about this word.


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## Treaty

CyrusSH said:


> Hebrew root _gld_ also means "clot"


Common Semitic root between Hebrew _g-l-d_ (skin / to freeze, to congeal) and Arabic _j-l-*d*_ (skin > _jalida_ frozen) not _j-l-_*ṭ*_. _The idea is that the root PS _g-l-d_ ("skin") began to mean "to congeal" (as to form a frost/hardened skin) at a much later stage, probably in West Semitic (or even in one language borrowed into others). It doesn't fit any of your Germanic-Semitic connections timing (or Vennemann's).

The other Arabic root is _j-l-*ṭ *_(to peel off, to scrape, to force out) possibly cognate with Aram. _g-l-ṭ _(to abhor) and Pal. Arab. _j-l-ṭ_ (to annoy). The (Central) Arabic root haس some interesting derivatives, _julṭā_' (loose canine) and _julṭa_ (curd, blood clot). The meaning that can encompass all is something like "separation/rejection" (skin from flesh, bark from trunk, tooth from gum, solid from liquid). Otherwise, it will be just another isolated word in one language. In any case, the development of the secondary (or even tertiary) meaning "clot" is both isolated and far from the timeframe you are looking at.



CyrusSH said:


> You should also consider that I have also considered Germanic sound changes about this word.


I clearly said even if there is a (or even ten) PS root(s) out of these words (_gld, glṭ_, etc.) you still have *only two* languages, PS and PG. Therefore, you can't consider a relationship between them, even if they fulfill sound-shift laws, because of the "only two" rule.


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## berndf

Treaty said:


> The idea is that the root PS _g-l-d_ ("skin") began to mean "to congeal" (as to form a frost/hardened skin) at a much later stage, probably in West Semitic (or even in one language borrowed into others).


Or simply because of Latin influence in Syriac. I don't think there is any pre-Roman occurrence of this meaning. At least I am not aware of it.


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## CyrusSH

Treaty said:


> Common Semitic root between Hebrew _g-l-d_ (skin / to freeze, to congeal) and Arabic _j-l-*d*_ (skin > _jalida_ frozen) not _j-l-_*ṭ*_. _The idea is that the root PS _g-l-d_ ("skin") began to mean "to congeal" (as to form a frost/hardened skin) at a much later stage, probably in West Semitic (or even in one language borrowed into others). It doesn't fit any of your Germanic-Semitic connections timing (or Vennemann's).
> 
> The other Arabic root is _j-l-*ṭ *_(to peel off, to scrape, to force out) possibly cognate with Aram. _g-l-ṭ _(to abhor) and Pal. Arab. _j-l-ṭ_ (to annoy). The (Central) Arabic root haس some interesting derivatives, _julṭā_' (loose canine) and _julṭa_ (curd, blood clot). The meaning that can encompass all is something like "separation/rejection" (skin from flesh, bark from trunk, tooth from gum, solid from liquid). Otherwise, it will be just another isolated word in one language. In any case, the development of the secondary (or even tertiary) meaning "clot" is both isolated and far from the timeframe you are looking at.



Your explanation about semantic shift from "skin" to "congeal" can't convince me, I think there are two similar roots with different meanings.



> I clearly said even if there is a (or even ten) PS root(s) out of these words (_gld, glṭ_, etc.) you still have *only two* languages, PS and PG. Therefore, you can't consider a relationship between them, even if they fulfill sound-shift laws, because of the "only two" rule.



You are really expert in قیاس مع الفارق!  I don't know its English translation, paralogism? Two people can't form a nation, so two nations/people can't be neighbours!!


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## berndf

CyrusSH said:


> Your explanation about semantic shift from "skin" to "congeal" can't convince me, I think there are two similar roots with different meanings.


I am not entirely convinced (see above). But it doesn't matter. Skin is the base meaning and freeze is a late commer and only in Aramaic.


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## CyrusSH

What about the meaning of "lump" in Germanic and Arabic words?


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