# Creer + que + subjunctive



## Cristina Allende

Hello!  In my Spanish class a couple days ago we had to answer a few questions over a short story we had read.  One of the questions asked the following:

*¿Qué crees que sea el mensaje del autor?*

My teacher from last year (when we learned about subjunctive situations) said that whenever you use creer que, it should be followed with the indicative, not the subjunctive.  *Is this rule always correct?* *Would this sentence be correct or not?*

*¿Qué crees que es el mensaje del autor?*

Thank you!
Christina


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## David

I don´t think it is always correct. All the following sound right to me:

Creo que el mejor de los cuentos *es* "El tonel de amontillado..."
No creo que "El tonel de amontillado" *sea* el mejor de los cuentos de Poe.
¿Crees que el mejor cuento de Poe *es *"El tonel de amontillado"? Si no lo es, ¿cuál crees que *sea *mejor?
Creo que si *hay*.
No creo que *haya*.
Él cree que hay, pero yo dudo que haya.


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## unspecified

I think in that case, it's acceptable either way (indicative or subjunctive); it just changes the meaning slightly:

*¿Qué crees que sea el mensaje del autor?*
What do you think the author's message might have been?

*¿Qué crees que es el mensaje del autor?
*What do you think the author's message is?

But, wait to see what a native-speaker says.  Until then, hope this helps!


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## Estefanía Perdomo

No concuerdo mucho con lo de la regla, miren lo que se debatió en otro foro, este es sólo un post interesante del hilo, léanlo.

Saludos.

Estefanía.


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## Cristina Allende

David said:


> Creo que el mejor de los cuentos *es* "El tonel de amontillado..."
> No creo que "El tonel de amontillado" *sea* el mejor de los cuentos de Poe.
> ¿Crees que el mejor cuento de Poe *es *"El tonel de amontillado"? Si no lo es, ¿cuál crees que *sea *mejor?
> Creo que si *hay*.
> No creo que *haya*.
> Él cree que hay, pero yo dudo que haya.


 
Yes, but the rule we learned in class was that after "no creer que..." (in the negative) you usually use subjunctive, but after "creer que" (in the affirmative) you use indicative.  Her explanation was that in the mind of English speakers, when we use "I think..." we are uncertain.  However, in the mind of Spanish speakers, when they use "Creo que..." they are certain.  It's hard to explain exactly how she phrased it, but she made it sound like Spanish speakers just have a different perception about uncertainty versus certainty.


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## Outsider

I understand the contrast that the author is trying to make. The subjunctive gives a more reserved nuance to the sentence.

¿Qué crees que es el mensaje del autor? --> What do you think the author's message is?

¿Qué crees que sea el mensaje del autor? --> What do you think the author's message might be?​However, I'm not sure that this distinction is accepted by standard Spanish grammar.


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## Cristina Allende

For the idea of "it might be..." could you use poder instead of using the subjunctive?

¿Qué crees que puede ser el mensaje del autor?

Or does that not make any sense?


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## Outsider

Indeed you can. 
Remember that there often isn't a one-to-one correspondence between English and Spanish constructions.


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## Cristina Allende

So, if I was going to answer this question, would I say "Creo que el mensaje sea..." or "Creo que el mensage es..." or even "Creo que el mensaje puede ser..."?
Which do you hear more often? (not just in this context, but in the general category of creer (affirmative) + que + verb form).


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## Jeromed

_Cristina :  _
_<<Her explanation was that in the mind of English speakers, when we use "I think..." we are uncertain. However, in the mind of Spanish speakers, when they use "Creo que..." they are certain.>>_

Jerome:  
True, but that's in declarative sentences (_Él cree que Juan vendrá)_
In a question, there's no certainty involved, since the teacher doesn't know what the students think.


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## Jeromed

Cristina Allende said:


> So, if I was going to answer this question, would I say "Creo que el mensaje sea..." or "Creo que el mensage es..." or even "Creo que el mensaje puede ser..."?
> Which do you hear more often? (not just in this context, but in the general category of creer (affirmative) + que + verb form).


 
_Creo que el mensaje es / Creo que el mensaje puede ser _both sound fine to me.
Creo que el mensaje sea does not.


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## Cristina Allende

So when a Spanish speaker is asking a question that has the word "think" in it, then do they mostly use it with subjunctive or indicative?

*Where do you think Ralph is right now?*
*¿Dónde crees que esté Ralph ahora?*
*--------------------------------------------*
*Why do you think that fence is there?*
*¿Por qué crees que esté esa cerca por ahí?*

(and yes, I was going for the American colors, there!)

Christina


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## lazarus1907

Cristina Allende said:


> Yes, but the rule we learned in class was that after "no creer que..." (in the negative) you usually use subjunctive, but after "creer que" (in the affirmative) you use indicative.  Her explanation was that in the mind of English speakers, when we use "I think..." we are uncertain.


There is no rule that justifies the use of the subjunctive here, as far as I know. Anyway, regarding that rule about "certain" and "not certain" things, I believe it is not very useful. Look:

Creo que viene - Viene, creo.
I think he's coming - He's coming, I think.

No creo que venga - Viene, no creo. 
I don't think he's coming - He's coming, I don't think. 

Coincidence? Check for the "indicative to declare" rule instead.


Cristina Allende said:


> *¿Dónde crees que *esté* está Ralph ahora?*
> *--------------------------------------------*
> *¿Por qué crees que *esté* está esa cerca por ahí?*


The use of subjunctive in interrogative sentences is marginal, and of little use. Keep the indicative here.


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## Jeromed

Cristina Allende said:


> So when a Spanish speaker is asking a question that has the word "think" in it, then do they mostly use it with subjunctive or indicative?
> 
> *Where do you think Ralph is right now?*
> *¿Dónde crees que esté Ralph ahora?*
> *--------------------------------------------*
> *Why do you think that fence is there?*
> *¿Por qué crees que esté esa cerca por ahí?*
> 
> (and yes, I was going for the American colors, there!)
> 
> Christina


 
Esté (subjunctive)---> might be
Está (indicative) ---> is

Both are possible in interrogative sentences, although I believe that the subjunctive is more common. I'll let the native speakers confirm this.


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## Outsider

lazarus1907 said:


> Anyway, regarding that rule about "certain" and "not certain" things, I believe it is not very useful. Look:
> 
> Creo que viene - Viene, creo.
> I think he's coming - He's coming, I think.
> 
> No creo que venga - Viene, no creo.
> I don't think he's coming - He's coming, I don't think.


Technically, though, "I don't think he's coming" and "I think he's not coming" are different ideas, Lazarus... 
Even though the former is often employed with the sense of the latter in practice.


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## lazarus1907

Jeromed said:


> Both are possible in interrogative sentences, although I believe that the subjunctive is more common.


I disagree.


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## lazarus1907

Outsider said:


> Technically, though, "I don't think he's coming" and "I think he's not coming" are different ideas, Lazarus...
> Even though the former is often employed with the sense of the latter in practice.


Could you elaborate here? I am not talking just about ideas, but syntaxis, semantics, and natural communication althogether. Those sentences convey ALMOST the same meaning, but they are not the same... even for natives, if you analize them properly. The proof is quite simple, actually.

I was just turning the subordinate clauses into main sentences just to prove my point (actually, inspired by Bull). There is an extensive literature showing that those two sentences are more different than they appear to be, and that there is a justification for the Spanish subjunctive.


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## Jeromed

lazarus1907 said:


> I disagree.


 
With the assertion that they're both possible, or with the one about the subjunctive being more common?

If the latter, I'll let native speakers from the Americas comment. I might be wrong;  or it might be a Latin American usage.


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## lazarus1907

Jeromed said:


> With the assertion that they're both possible, or with the one about the subjunctive being more common?


You said that you believe that the subjunctive is more common here. I don't agree about that point. Check as many sources as you like; I'll be most surprised if you're right, since my American's writers database seems to confirm my proposal.


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## Outsider

lazarus1907 said:


> Could you elaborate here?


Sure:


"I don't think he's coming" --> I am not certain that he's coming. He may or may not be coming.

"I think he's not coming" --> I am positive that he's not coming.
The first sentence still allows for some doubt; the second does not.



lazarus1907 said:


> Those sentences convey ALMOST the same meaning, but they are not the same... even for natives, if you analize them properly. The proof is quite simple, actually.


Isn't that why I said, too?


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## Jeromed

lazarus1907 said:


> You said that you believe that the subjunctive is more common here. I don't agree about that point. Check as many sources as you like; I'll be most surprised if you're right, since my American's writers database seems to confirm my proposal.


 
OK. I won't argue with you, since you seem to be so certain (and I am not).


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## panjabigator

lazarus1907 said:


> There is no rule that justifies the use of the subjunctive here, as far as I know. Anyway, regarding that rule about "certain" and "not certain" things, I believe it is not very useful. Look:
> 
> Creo que viene - Viene, creo.
> I think he's coming - He's coming, I think.
> 
> No creo que venga - Viene, no creo.
> I don't think he's coming - He's coming, I don't think.
> 
> Coincidence? Check for the "indicative to declare" rule instead.
> The use of subjunctive in interrogative sentences is marginal, and of little use. Keep the indicative here.



Hi Lazarus,

Could you explain a little further about why the usage of the subjunctive is marginal with interrogatives?  When would its usage be appropriate in an interrogative sentence?


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## lazarus1907

Outsider said:


> Sure:
> 
> "I don't think he's coming" --> I am not certain that he's coming. He may or may not be coming.
> "I think he's not coming" --> I am positive that he's not coming.


Those sentences are different for the same reasons the subjunctive and the indicative are used: In the fist one no declaration is made; in the second one, a declaration is made.


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## lazarus1907

panjabigator said:


> Could you explain a little further about why the usage of the subjunctive is marginal with interrogatives? When would its usage be appropriate in an interrogative sentence?




I shouldn't have said that. Anyway, there are cases in imperative and interrogative sentences (direct and indirect style) where the subjunctive "appears" to override the general rule. Please, email me if you really want some examples.


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## aleCcowaN

Cristina Allende said:


> Hello!  In my Spanish class a couple days ago we had to answer a few questions over a short story we had read.  One of the questions asked the following:
> 
> *¿Qué crees que sea el mensaje del autor?*
> 
> My teacher from last year (when we learned about subjunctive situations) said that whenever you use creer que, it should be followed with the indicative, not the subjunctive.  *Is this rule always correct?* *Would this sentence be correct or not?*
> 
> *¿Qué crees que es el mensaje del autor?*
> 
> Thank you!
> Christina


Sentences like "*¿Qué crees que es el mensaje del autor?" *look to me like a machine translation departing from English, mainly because of the "qué", and also because of the "es". Maybe I've read all the posts slightly but I didn't find any criticism on the use of "qué".

It could be:

¿Cuál es el mensaje del autor? (The author cast a message. Now, you have to find it.)

¿Cuál crees que es el mensaje del autor? (The author cast a message clearly. He or her confirmed it, or scholars agree on it. Now, you have to find that message. Similar to the previous one, it is less general: there's a message and we are interested in what you think, and possibly in you aiming the target)

¿Cuál crees que sea el mensaje del autor? (The author cast a message. Whether he or her has confirmed it or not, whether the scholars agree on it or not, is not the issue now. We are interested in your opinion and reasoning -or the language skills you show, say, in a language course-, not your accuracy ---> the subjunctive here shouts: Give us the best of what is in your mind about the point, later we'll compare that with some standard which might be even the real author's message).

The other alternatives:

¿Qué es el mensaje del autor? Answer: The message of the author.

¿Qué crees que es el mensaje del autor? Answer: A message

¿Qué crees que sea el mensaje del autor? Answer: A message of peace, a message of love, a message of hate, a message of hope ....

But with Spanish of the United States and neighbor zones reached by US TV air broadcasts, you never know.

[You're welcome and encouraged to correct and criticize my English]


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## Cristina Allende

So, if you use "cuál" instead of "qué," would you still use the subjunctive in the sentence or not?  What is the most common way of expressing this question?


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## aleCcowaN

Cristina Allende said:


> So, if you use "cuál" instead of "qué," would you still use the subjunctive in the sentence or not?  What is the most common way of expressing this question?


I think the problem is which actually is the question. Speaking from my culture, education, age, etc. if I asked you "¿Cuál crees que es el mensaje del autor?", I'd be asking you to give me that piece of information: what you hold in your mind as a summary and conclusion about some message given by the author. 

If I asked you "¿Cuál crees que sea el mensaje del autor?", I'd be encouraging you to tell me what you think the message could be and explain me it in detail, including the way you used to reach your conclusion, and all other speculation you may have done on the issue.

As a rule of thumb, indicative calls for facts (including your conclusion as a simple fact) and subjunctive makes room for you (you subject, as the generator of that conclusion). Following this, that's why are much more common the forms "creer + que + indicative" and "no + creer + que + subjunctive", because what you think-believe-feel_deeply is in fact a fact to everyone else (thus indicative), and what you don't thik-believe-feel_deeply isn't a fact in your mind and it is a fact of lacking of a fact in everyone else's minds. You surely are aware of this and that's why you find the form "si + creer + que + subjuntive" weird or wrong. There's maybe only one situation that justifies this form: you are more interested in the subject than in the fact (the fact = what the subject thinks).

Clean slate start: If I were a teacher, gave my students a text and wanted them to discuss and/or reflect on it and then promote them to talk aloud or write down their opinions, reasonings and conclusion, because as a teacher I need to know the mental mechanics of my students and evaluate their skills in different areas and general proficiency in order for me to correct, propose, show, find ways, and so on, I would encourage this by asking them "¿Cuál creen que sea el mensaje del autor? ¡El debate está abierto!"

About "qué" and "cuál", that's other issue.


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## koala_au

listen I studied this rule at the uni
creo+que+indicativo
no creo+que+subjuntivo
u must put the subjuntivo just in the sentence negative while if the sentence is positive u must put the indicative
it s the rule of subjetive sentences in spanish


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## labrapalabras

What a great thread! The subjunctive (both in Spanish and in English) is a fascinating subject. However...
De entrada, me parece importante señalar algo que nadie ha comentado: la pregunta original del maestro "¿qué crees que sea el mensaje del autor?" me suena rara. Me parece más correcto decir: "¿cuál crees que sea el mensaje del autor?". La razón gramatical es que "mensaje" es cuantificable/contable y no una acción, pues sí se puede decir "¿qué crees que sea lo que quiere?".
En cuanto a lo del subjuntivo. La regla planteada me aprece que funciona en muchos casos, pero no se le debe seguir a rajatabla. El subjuntivo está relacioado con el modo "irrealis" de la lengua, se utiliza para hablar de cosas que no se saben con certeza, que se suponen o imaginan. Actualmente, en el español, el subjuntivo está simplificándose y sufriendo trasformaciones. De ahí que ambos usos (¿cuál crees que sea el mensaje?; ¿cuál crees que es el mensaje?) puedan escucharse en hablantes nativos. La razón por la cual se usa el indicativo en las frases afrimativas (yo creo que el mensaje es...) es porque se está hablando de la realidad de una creencia, más allá de los criterios de verdad para confirmarla.
Jaja, espero haber ayudado en algo. Es un tema interesante.


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## Gerhardus

Cristina Allende said:


> Hello! In my Spanish class a couple days ago we had to answer a few questions over a short story we had read. One of the questions asked the following:
> 
> *¿Qué crees que sea el mensaje del autor?*
> 
> My teacher from last year (when we learned about subjunctive situations) said that whenever you use creer que, it should be followed with the indicative, not the subjunctive. *Is this rule always correct?* *Would this sentence be correct or not?*
> 
> *¿Qué crees que es el mensaje del autor?*
> 
> Thank you!
> Christina


 
Since this is a QUESTION, it may take subjunctive, example:

¿Qué crees que es ..... (what do you think is ...)
¿Qué crees que sea ... (what do you think might be ...)

see: http://www.spanish-ingles.com/subjunctive-moods.html


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## dilema

Cristina Allende said:


> Hello! In my Spanish class a couple days ago we had to answer a few questions over a short story we had read. One of the questions asked the following:
> 
> *¿Qué crees que sea el mensaje del autor?*
> 
> My teacher from last year (when we learned about subjunctive situations) said that whenever you use creer que, it should be followed with the indicative, not the subjunctive. *Is this rule always correct?* *Would this sentence be correct or not?*
> 
> *¿Qué crees que es el mensaje del autor?*
> 
> Thank you!
> Christina


En España sólo oirías la versión con indicativo. Es posible que en algunos países de América se use el subjuntivo para preguntas de ese tipo (yo lo he oído en alguna telenovela ¿mexicana, venezolana?).

En cuanto al uso de _qué_ o _cuál_, depende de qué es lo que el profesor esté queriendo preguntar.

El _qué_ está bien si lo que busca es una respuesta del tipo: creo que es un mensaje de esperanza/provocador/político/una justificación... (en definitiva, una definición de la naturaleza del mensaje)

Si lo que busca es que se describa el mensaje, lo adecuado hubiera sido un _cuál_, en mi opinión.


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## duncandhu

I agree with koala_au on this:

I was taught that "verbos de la cabeza", i.e. those verbs linked to perception, e.g. ver, oír, parecer, creer, pensar etc go with indicative when positive, and subjunctive when negative, hence:

Creo que + ind.
No creo que + subj.
Veo que + ind.
No veo que + subj.
Es que + ind.
No es que + subj.
etc.

But I'm not sure about what the rule is if it's a question, as various people have said already.

Saludos
Duncan


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## VivaReggaeton88

Lazarus:

Why is 'No creo que venga.' wrong?


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## xlover

[B said:
			
		

> _¿Qué crees que sea el mensaje del autor?_[/B]
> 
> *Is this rule always correct?* *Would this sentence be correct or not?*


 No siempre... 
... Comó se va a explicarle (how you'll explian it?).... _What you think that it would be a snake ?_


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## Milton Sand

Hi,
No, xlover, he didn't say that was wrong, he say that the conversion to independent clauses was not possible (green ticks are mine):


lazarus1907 said:


> No creo que venga  - Viene, no creo.
> I don't think he's coming  - He's coming, I don't think.


Regards,


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## slazenger14

Gerhardus said:


> Since this is a QUESTION, it may take subjunctive, example:
> 
> ¿Qué crees que es ..... (what do you think is ...)
> ¿Qué crees que sea ... (what do you think might be ...)
> 
> see: http://www.spanish-ingles.com/subjunctive-moods.html



Coincido con Gerhardus. Explicó los varios sentidos del español al inglés super bien.


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## H Bookbinder

Cristina Allende said:


> Yes, but the rule we learned in class was that after "no creer que..." (in the negative) you usually use subjunctive, but after "creer que" (in the affirmative) you use indicative.  Her explanation was that in the mind of English speakers, when we use "I think..." we are uncertain.  However, in the mind of Spanish speakers, when they use "Creo que..." they are certain.  It's hard to explain exactly how she phrased it, but she made it sound like Spanish speakers just have a different perception about uncertainty versus certainty.



I agree with Cristina.


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## lynk25

Outsider said:


> Sure:
> 
> "I don't think he's coming" --> I am not certain that he's coming. He may or may not be coming.
> "I think he's not coming" --> I am positive that he's not coming.
> The first sentence still allows for some doubt; the second does not.



I wanted to quickly add on to this. ^This is the same way I was taught subjunctive for Spanish.

This is how I think about it: 
"No pienso que venga" -- I'm not sure if he's coming or not
"Pienso que no viene" -- Even if I am wrong, this is still what I think, and I believe that it is true. 

I am still a little bit confused about subjunctive though. I understand how it functions in sentences, but I'm not so sure how it works in questions. For example, i'm reading a novel for my spanish class. One line reads "Pero, Angelina, ¿cuánto crees que tarden las cartas? Tardan mucho...". It makes sense for the verb to be in the subjunctive when it's "no creer", but why is the second verb in the subjunctive when it's in the question?


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## slazenger14

lynk25 said:


> I wanted to quickly add on to this. ^This is the same way I was taught subjunctive for Spanish.
> 
> This is how I think about it:
> "No pienso que venga" -- I'm not sure if he's coming or not
> "Pienso que no viene" -- Even if I am wrong, this is still what I think, and I believe that it is true.
> 
> I am still a little bit confused about subjunctive though. I understand how it functions in sentences, but I'm not so sure how it works in questions. For example, i'm reading a novel for my spanish class. One line reads "Pero, Angelina, ¿cuánto crees que tarden las cartas? Tardan mucho...". It makes sense for the verb to be in the subjunctive when it's "no creer", but why is the second verb in the subjunctive when it's in the question?



The reason is that you are expressing a degree of doubt upon asking the question. 
¿Tú realmente piensas que ellos vayan a la fiesta? <-- You are questioning the fact that they are going to the party or at least expressing a degree doubt over the whole subject.

Maybe a native speaker of Spanish can explain in better, but this is how I understand it. Also, I hear the indicative used more in the subordinate clause, though, at least around the people I speak with.


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## maretto

*¿Qué crees que sea el mensaje del autor?*

*¿Qué crees que es el mensaje del autor?*

   A mi estas dos frases me suenan muy raro. Yo diría ¿Cuál crees que es el mensaje del autor?


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