# WWII-German side



## Sev

In france, in my generation at least (i'm 22  ), we had lots of lessons, saw lots of movies, learned a lot about World War II. I think it might be because France won  .

I think it's important to remind that dark period ; but it's in my opinion a little bit 'too much'.

What i'd like to know is if German people (and other countries too, but German would be appreciate) speak as much as we do about it.

And we also have many many films about it ; it's often "oh very very bad German SS !" (but sometimes very bad french police too). I'd like to know what kind of movies you can see in Germany, and how german people are shown.

Danke schön !!


----------



## valerie

I'm 37 and I remember having the same feeling with resistance and 2nd World War. Now that I am no more submitted to school program, I do not have it anymore. I also read some very impacting books which changed the focus I usually had, like 'Si c'est un Homme' by Primo Levi (do'nt remember the italian name) and 'La storia' by Elsa Morante.

Actually, I do not think that it is talked about because France won (France was very close to not be part of the winners). It is probably that it was a major event in the national, european and world history, and a recent one, with a lot of people still living having participated. Nevertheless, I can tell that in Spain (which basically did not take part to 2nd WW), the subject is much less talked about than in France.

Let's see what other foreros may say about it


----------



## Silvia

Well, about Italy, since our history classes would be neverending due to the massive material available, WWII is the last thing we learn at school, according to our school program. Thus, it is often treated badly, in the Spring, when school is almost over...

That's what happened to me several times, besides that time when I had a Jewish teacher: she kept talking about it for a whole semester. That was good, anyway. I liked the way she was objective and unbiased about fascism and Mussolini, which is not easy, especially for Jewish people.


----------



## Sev

valerie said:
			
		

> . I also read some very impacting books which changed the focus I usually had, like 'Si c'est un Homme' by Primo Levi (do'nt remember the italian name) and 'La storia' by Elsa Morante.


Yes I read 'Si c'est un homme' too, when i was in the 'lycée', as you said 'very impacting', because Primo Levi does not try to make a melodrama, but simply tells how was the truth.
I think the italien name is simply : Se questo è un uomo (but i don't speak italian)


----------



## Leopold

As valerie said in Spain it's not a very common topic. In fact I'm sure that most of people does not really know what nazism meant actually. And that's also because of what silviap said, we leave it apart for the end of the course so we never get to know it deeply. I remember studying nazism in my las secondary school, but just the ideology and the party. I started understanding it when i saw some films and read "Mauz" by Art Spiegelman.

L.


----------



## Whodunit

Hi, I'm German. Since we just do the WW1 at school and I can expect our history lessons will go into this topic further, I wouldn't say Germans ignore it, they talk about it - even between dependants and friends. I like to speak French, and some French want to learn my native language.
Nowadays, most people and their generations forgot those days and looked ahead. I've already seen many films about the Nazi regime. I'd be surprised what about Austria - gatoviejo - that was Hitler's home country, he got the German nationality and waged wars, unfortunately it isn't better nowadays, please consider:
The Pakistanis started with war against the US and Bush did the same with Pakistan and Afghanistan. And what about us? Here're some from Semitic speaking countries - Janna, elroy, krumholtz - and a lot of Americans. We'd never insult each other.

We used to talk a lot about WW 1, but I really expect we're going to discuss even more about WW 2 (in German: Zweiter Weltkrieg).
Although France won, we aren't cross with French people, nowadays, are we?

Well, as I said about German side: We aren't angry with the French today and I hope they aren't mad at the German either at all.


----------



## fetchezlavache

i don't see that france is submerged with films about ww2. 

did you get to see '93 rue lauriston', a very rare film, dealing with the french collaborating police ?

did you get to see olivier hirschbiegel 'der untergang', about hitler's last days ?

there will never be enough of films about this period. simply because there are these new generations, especially in france, who to my greatest horror tend to deny that the holocaust has even taken place, and say so bluntly to their teacher's face, even after having just seen 'nacht und nebel' for instance. 

what makes me sad however, is that france hasn't issued more films about the algerian war, and spain about the civil war. some eras of our past that we haven't made peace with yet.


----------



## vachecow

fetchezlavache said:
			
		

> who to my greatest horror tend to deny that the holocaust has even taken place


That in itself is a trajedy


----------



## David

Where did Whodunit get the idea that Pakistan and the US are, or were, at war? Are Valerie and Sev being serious when they say France won the Second World War, or is he kidding? France not only capitulated to the Germans in weeks, but then set up a government at Vichy that actively collaborated in many of the crimes of the Nazis. Franco took power in Spain thanks to the assistance of Hitler; it is not surprising that as long as the old bastard lived, Spanish schools did not devote much attention to World War II. God knows my own country is guilty of terrible crimes too, but if young people want to change the world, they have to get their facts straight. (English speaking foreros who want to read Se quest e un uomo - Si c'est un homme, you will have to look for the bizarre title Surviving Auschwitz, which does not capture the real sense of the book. The original title was "If this be a man...", Levi´s question about the point at which human beings become so degraded they cease to be human... Good for all of you for reading it and thinking about i...


----------



## fetchezlavache

primo levi's book (a great book) has however very little to do with the feeling that france has actually won the war, or not. in my very humble opinion, this war has had no winners, especially when you see what's left of it now, what little benefit we draw from the lesson we should have learned. 

 americans used it to recriminate at french people who were anti-war-in-iraq, and politicians used it to make pretend they care, in the ceremonies of the 60th aniversary, and _to make pretend they are united in thinking 'never again'._ everyday life, at least here in france, shows us that the germs of what allowed hitler to rise so powerful are still alive. and kicking. _racism is alive._ the front national has never had so many connections all throughout europe. the brown plague is waiting for an opportune moment to spread, yet again.


----------



## David

Je suis d'ac, Fetchez. La position de la France vis-à-vis la guerre en Iraq est entièrement correcte. Mais il est absurde, à mon avis, déclarer que les Français avaient gagné la guerre. Ce qu'on voit en la France d'aujour d'hui, et lequel est vraiment triste, c'est que l'arrivée chez vous des émigrés du "Troisième Monde"  a produit une répétition de toutes les fautes commis par la sociéte américaine vers les noirs, et après vous à l'Indochine, et une revivification des attitudes en France de l'époque de cettes deux guerres-çi. Maintenant, pour la première fois dans ma vie, je commence a me sentir, pour ne pas être chrétien, étranger au pays ou sont nés mes parents y quelques'uns entre mes grand-parents. Non, la plague est encore virulente...


----------



## Yaya

Did anyone here ever read the book "the Reader" ? My professor had us read it, which was rather unorthodox because reading a non-fiction book in a history class is not often done. Anyways, it talked a lot about how contemporary Germans view their past...

as for who won the war, I don't think it matters. I don't think that the French won it by themselves, but I also don't think that America "saved France" either.. you have to also recognize that the Americans were late coming into the war.. What about the Russians? although they only went to war on germany because hitler invaded them, they're the ones that lost the most lives (right?) and historians still wonder what would have happened if the non-agression pact had held up.

interesting topic.. Scott


----------



## fetchezlavache

David said:
			
		

> Maintenant, pour la première fois dans ma vie, je commence a me sentir, pour ne pas être chrétien, étranger au pays ou sont nés mes parents y quelques'uns entre mes grand-parents.



i fail to understand the meaning of this sentence david... what has christianity got to do with anything? can you please explain ? surely you can't mean that, regarding the love of foreigners, usa is a better place than france, especially the usa of today ?    

mind you, i'm not using that as an excuse for french people's intolerable xenophobia ...


----------



## kens

Yaya said:
			
		

> reading a non-fiction book in a history class is not often done.


Wow, you must have really strange history lessons down there in California!  Maybe I'm being naive, but I would hope all my history textbooks were non-fiction.


----------



## Yaya

kens said:
			
		

> Wow, you must have really strange history lessons down there in California! Maybe I'm being naive, but I would hope all my history textbooks were non-fiction.


lol!  haha ooops I meant reading a FICTION book! My bad haha.


----------



## Sev

Well i'm sorry if i was not clear by saying France "won" WWII. It was a kind of irony because as i said there are many films with a "happy end" (sorry that's not a word to talk about war ), where french and americans (and those films amways forget the others ) are happy, shown as "winners" and everthing is ok in a wonderful world (how do you say "Et tout va pour le mieux dans le meilleur des mondes" ?).

As some of you said i totally agree to say there were no winner.

And i did not said we are overwhelmed by WWII films NOW, but that when i was younger (collège et lycée) we really talked a lot about it, and saw many movies. I personnaly found it interesting, and as i've already said, that's very important. But i also often heard young people saying "Oh y'en a marre d'entendre toujours parler de la 2ème guerre mondiale" (in english :"_I'm fed up with talking about WWII"_). What i think is a pity.


----------



## Sev

whodunit said:
			
		

> Nowadays, most people and their generations forgot those days and looked ahead. We aren't angry with the French today and I hope they aren't mad at the German either at all.


Of course, we do like Germans !!! War was a long time ago, and when you say "Germany" to a young French now, he'll think "Love Parade in Berlin" or that kind of things and never WWII !! And even if there's no pb with speaking about that.


----------



## Sev

fetchezlavache said:
			
		

> what makes me sad however, is that france hasn't issued more films about the algerian war, and spain about the civil war. some eras of our past that we haven't made peace with yet.


That's true, and what i wanted to say is also that we spoke a lot about WWII (at school), and that gave us only a very very flittle time to talk about Algerian war, and all other wars in the world, and unfortunately there were and still are many  .


----------



## Yaya

Sev said:
			
		

> Of course, we do like Germans !!! War was a long time ago, and when you say "Germany" to a young French now, he'll think "Love Parade in Berlin" or that kind of things and never WWII !! And even if there's no pb with speaking about that.


 When I was in France, I definitely did not feel any hostility towards Germans, perhaps even the opposite (respect) because of their usually strong skills in languages. However, I always wondered how come no one in France ever vacations in Germany.. I met very few French who did.. it was more common to go to Spain, or even Italy. And Germany is sooo incredibly beautiful and has so many great things to offer.

  I just found that interesting.. Scott

 btw (by the way)- should I write my reply in French?? I would prefer to do so because that way I could practice, but obviously a lot more people know English than French and this is not the French/English forum..


----------



## Sev

Yaya said:
			
		

> .
> 1 - However, I always wondered how come no one in France ever vacations in Germany.. I met very few French who did.. it was more common to go to Spain, or even Italy. And Germany is sooo incredibly beautiful and has so many great things to offer.
> 
> 2 - btw (by the way)- should I write my reply in French?? I would prefer to do so because that way I could practice, but obviously a lot more people know English than French and this is not the French/English forum..


1-If french people like germans, i think that unfortunately many of them do not like the language... And Germany is not a very attractive country according to many frenchies thumbsdow ). I do not agree, of course !
2- You can speak french if you want to practise, or better, write your post in both languages  ! If you have time


----------



## Focalist

David said:
			
		

> English speaking foreros who want to read Se quest e un uomo - Si c'est un homme, you will have to look for the bizarre title Surviving Auschwitz, which does not capture the real sense of the book. The original title was "If this be a man...", Levi´s question about the point at which human beings become so degraded they cease to be human... Good for all of you for reading it and thinking about i...


In the UK the book is published as "If This Is a Man" -- see, inter alia, http://www.jour.city.ac.uk/books/documents/10/autobiography/ifthisisaman.htm

F


----------



## Jessuki

hm.. I'm not quite sure about this -correct me- but I think that talking (a lot or a bit) about WWII and the Spanish Civil War  in Spain depends on the comunidad autónoma you are in.

For example, I'm from Barcelona - Red area or antifranquista/antinazi zone- and, so, we focussed in those wars (not so much as I wanted, but, anyway).

What is frustrating nowadays is that young people (well, I'm 24) say 'viva españa, viva Franco' without really understanding what Franco meant and did (he was a dictator, you see??)

I used to think that the 'red side' was the 'good one', now I see both sides with blood in their hands (however, you would not expect that from any government you have).

(aaaah, me pilla el toro, luego sigo!!! que tengo que irme a casa a comer!!!!   )

hasta luego!!


----------



## valerie

David said:
			
		

> Are Valerie and Sev being serious when they say France won the Second World War, or is he kidding? France not only capitulated to the Germans in weeks, but then set up a government at Vichy that actively collaborated in many of the crimes of the Nazis.



Perhaps I did not express the facts correctly. France capitulated at the beginning of the war, was invaded and then collaborated with the invasors (this word, collaboration, is still highly connoted), even in the worst actions of that moment. But there were also French people who did not accept the invasion, flew to London or to Africa and from there took part to the war. There were also people in France who resisted to the invasor, organising clandestine networks to help people escape to the south,...

France was not  an allied power and was not present at the conferences where the end of the war and the future was decided (Yalta and Postdam), but then Churchill obtained that France be one of the 4 occupying force in Germany. Finally French troops (denominated de la France libre) coming from abroad participated to the liberation of the country. 

So if it can not be said that France has been part of the winners, as I wrote, it is true that France has been at the end of the war on the side of the winners,


----------



## valerie

whodunit said:
			
		

> Although France won, we aren't cross with French people, nowadays, are we?



I think the horrors of the wars (2nd WW was the 3rd one between France and Germany in 70 years) and of nazism provoked a reaction already before the end of the war: Peace in Europe was required, and required fair treatment of Germany (especially). Then examplar statemen, especially Adenauer and de Gaulle had the necessary courage to impose to their people 'reconciliation', and this was the basis of the European Union building. In 1950 already was created the first European community, la CECA, la communauté du charbon et de l'acier (I do not know the name in English or German)

You can find here a speech of Pierre Mendes France in 1954 (in French), expressing the necesity of the association of France, Germany and Great Britain, and also the main lines of the first building blocks of the European Union.
http://www.pierremendesfrance.asso.fr/html/text3.htm


Here in a short story the steps in the 'reconcialiation franco-allemande' from 1945 till today (also in French)
http://www.cndp.fr/lesScripts/bande...p://www.sceren.fr/franco-all/rep-histoire.htm

All of this does not make German beaches more attractive  , which I guess explains why not many french people go to Germany in Holidays


----------



## valerie

David, can I propose some linguistic corrections, without any comments on the content?


			
				David said:
			
		

> Je suis d'ac, Fetchez. La position de la France vis-à-vis *de* la guerre en Iraq est entièrement correcte. Mais il est absurde, à mon avis, *de* déclarer que les Français avaient gagné la guerre. Ce qu'on voit *dans* la France d'*aujourd'hui*, et *qui* est vraiment triste, c'est que l'arrivée chez vous des émigrés du "*Tiers* Monde"  a produit une répétition de toutes les fautes commi*ses* par la sociét*é* américaine *envers* les noirs, et après vous à l'Indochine (je ne comprends pas), et une revivification des attitudes en France de l'époque de *ces* deux guerres. Maintenant, pour la première fois dans ma vie, *parce que je ne suis pas * chrétien, je commence *à* me sentir étranger au pays *où* sont nés mes parents y *quelques-uns de* mes grand-parents. Non, le *fléau * est encore virulent...


----------



## valerie

fetchezlavache said:
			
		

> what makes me sad however, is that france hasn't issued more films about the algerian war, and spain about the civil war. some eras of our past that we haven't made peace with yet.



It is really a difficult subject, and for my part I have problems to understand how people can cope keeping everything they saw for themselves without saying anything, which happened a lot with French soldiers in Algeria. But now it seems that things are changing, 30 years later, or am I wrong?


As for the civil war in Spain, things may be different. It has not been denied, on the contrary, the winning side has mythified it. Nowadays, things on surface may appear quiet, but there are still harsh feelings. Last year people disinter civil war victims (almost 70 years afterwards) to find their relatives, it had been prohibited till then. 
There is also a great debate on what to do with archives confiscated by Franco's army to the Catalan government during the war and sent to Salamanca (they were used then as an information source for the 'Tribunal Especial para la Represión de la Masonería y el Comunismo'). Catalans want them back to Catalunya, and Castillians want them to be kept with the overall archive. I interpret that as an intent to clean a still burning page of history.


----------



## valerie

In the Vanguardia of today (Newspaper in Catalonya), Antoni Puigverd mentions three books talking about the holocaust (titles in spanish):
- *El jardín de los Finzi-Contini * by Giorgio Bassani
_Uno de los libros más sutiles y conmovedores sobre el exterminio de los judíos durante el periodo nazi _ ...
- *Si esto es un hombre * by Primo Levi
- *Sin destino * by Imre Kertész
_Son las palabras más impresionantes que he leído en mi vida_

I attach the article, in Spanish, which comments a little more on these books (free access, at least today)
http://www.lavanguardia.es/web/20050131/51176025554.html


Tres jóvenes en Auschwitz
UNA INMENSA CANTIDAD de detalles servía para demostrar que los hebreos, los gitanos y los eslavos eran animales, hierba para ser pisada      


ANTONI PUIGVERD - 31/01/2005


Uno de los libros más sutiles y conmovedores sobre el exterminio de los judíos durante el periodo nazi es una novela que no habla de los campos ni de su horror, sino del descubrimiento de los claroscuros del amor. Me refiero a El jardín de los Finzi-Contini, de Giorgio Bassani. La narración está situada en 1951, años después del holocausto. 

Copyrighted material deleted


----------

