# يوجد كثير يحصلون على النصيحة، قليلون يستفيدون منها



## Andrew___

May I ask how we pronounce this phrase:

*تعلمت انه يوجد كثير يحصلون على النصيحة*
*القليلون فقط يستفيدون منها**.*​ 
Can I say:

ta3allamtu annahu yuujada kathiira yaHsuluuna 3ala an-naSiiHati; al qaliiluuna faqaT yastafiiduuna minha.


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## Finland

Andrew___ said:


> May I ask how we pronounce this phrase:
> 
> *تعلمت انه يوجد كثير يحصلون على النصيحة*
> *القليلون فقط يستفيدون منها**.*​
> 
> Can I say:
> 
> ta3allamtu annahu yuujadu kathiirun yaHSuluuna 3ala an-naSiiHati; al qaliiluuna faqaT yastafiiduuna minha.


 
Although I have heard the second part in this way: "al-qillatu faqaT yastafiiduuna minha".

HTH

S


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## elroy

A few more corrections:

ta3allamtu annahu yuujadu kathiiruuna yaHSaluuna 3ala 'n-naSiiHati; al qaliiluuna faqaT yastafiiduuna minha.

By the way, the Arabic does say كثير, but it should be كثيرون.


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## Finland

Hello!



elroy said:


> A few more corrections:
> 
> ta3allamtu annahu yuujadu kathiiruuna yaHSaluuna 3ala 'n-naSiiHati; al qaliiluuna faqaT yastafiiduuna minha.
> 
> By the way, the Arabic does say كثير, but it should be كثيرون.


 
Oops, obviously كثيرون...  But why do you say yaHSaluuna and not yaHSuluuna?? And do you know this phrase with qilla or qaliiluuna? I have always heard it with qilla.

S


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## elroy

Finland said:


> But why do you say yaHSaluuna and not yaHSuluuna??


 Because that's the way I've always heard and said it.   I suspect that you must have learned it with an "u."  Is there another situation where some prescriptive rule contradicts actual usage (at least in some regions of the Arabic-speaking world)?  I wonder what other native speakers think. 





> And do you know this phrase with qilla or qaliiluuna? I have always heard it with qilla.


 I'm not actually familiar with the sentence as an established saying.


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## Finland

Hello!



elroy said:


> Because that's the way I've always heard and said it.  I suspect that you must have learned it with an "u." Is there another situation where some prescriptive rule contradicts actual usage (at least in some regions of the Arabic-speaking world)? I wonder what other native speakers think. I'm not actually familiar with the sentence as an established saying.


 
I say ya7Sal in colloquial but have learnt that in MSA it should be ya7Sul only. And I thought the question here was about written Arabic (although I'm actually not sure now)...

I have come across this sentence in slightly varying forms. I don't know how established it is but to me it sounds like it's from some famous speech or story or something. I cannot recall where I've seen it in use, probably in contemporary novels and newspaper articles or something.

But now it's time to go to bed, so tiSba7uu 3ala kheir! 

S


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## elroy

Finland said:


> I say ya7Sal in colloquial but have learnt that in MSA it should be ya7Sul only. And I thought the question here was about written Arabic (although I'm actually not sure now)...


 Well, we don't use the verb حصل in my dialect, except in the set expression حصل خير, so I don't think my pronunciation of the MSA verb is due to a dialectal influence.

I'm sure you're right about the prescriptively correct pronunciation, and in fact I just looked up the verb in الغني, which lists present tense forms, and it only lists it with a Damma.  Also, having thought about it some more (and having said both forms to myself a few times), it doesn't sound bad to me with a Damma.  But it doesn't sound bad with a fat7a either, so I'm not sure what's going on. 

I'd be quite interested in finding out how widespread "a7Salu" is.  I'll ask some fellow native speakers and report my findings.


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## Finland

Hello!



elroy said:


> I'd be quite interested in finding out how widespread "a7Salu" is. I'll ask some fellow native speakers and report my findings.


 
Cannot wait to hear the results  I'll try to do the same amongst my friends!

S


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## Andrew___

Many thanks to all for your kind help.



elroy said:


> Is there another situation where some prescriptive rule contradicts actual usage (at least in some regions of the Arabic-speaking world)?  I wonder what other native speakers think.



Ahh you natives are an interesting group of people 

فعلاً لا شك أن العامية راسخة في أدمغة العرب!

وسأذهب إلى القول أن من الأسهل اخراج كل الأشجار على سطح الأرض من مطرحها من أن نخرج العامية من أدمغة العرب

I am trying to say that it is easier to uproot all the trees from the earth than it is to uproot 3amiyya from the minds of Arabs


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## Xence

Finland said:


> I say ya7Sal in colloquial but have learnt that in MSA it should be ya7Sul only.


 
Yes.


> حَصَل الشيءُ *يَحْصُل* حُصُولاً


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## elroy

Uh, as I said, this particular phenomenon is obviously not due to dialectal interference.  I really don't know what the explanation is. Maybe speakers of _other_ dialects in which this verb is commonly used and pronounced with a fat7a, pronounce it that way in MSA due to interference, and that pronunciation somehow spread to the Holy Land? 

But regarding dialectal interference in general, as I've said time and again, it's one language!  So it's neither feasible nor desirable to completely separate MSA and colloquial Arabic. That would be like telling you that you must speak English with no trace of an Australian accent or any Australian expressions whatsoever.

By the way, last night I asked my dad - a native speaker who has a university degree in Arabic and taught the language to both foreigners and natives for years - what the present tense form of "7aSaltu," would be, and he said - you guessed it - "a7Salu."  He even went on to conjugate the verb in all persons, using a fat7a in every form ("ta7Salu," "ya7Salu," etc.). 

So I at least know this isn't just part of my own idiolect, as at least one other Palestinian pronounces it that way too.  And not only that, but when I told my dad why I had asked, his immediate reaction to "ya7Sulu" was something along the lines of "ya7S*u*lu? How weird!" It sounded weird to me, too, when I read Andrew's transliteration, which is why I "corrected" it. It was only after I said it to myself a few times that it started to sound less jarring. As I said, "ya7Salu" is _the _pronunciation I am familiar with!

Just saw Xence's post. I think we've established that "ya7Sulu" is correct in MSA.  But have you ever come across "a7Salu" (in MSA, not in colloquial Arabic)? Does it sound totally wrong to you (like, say, "ya7Silu"  )?


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## be.010

Hi guys! and happy Ramadan...
Personally, I heard both yaHSalu and yaHSulu... I am, too, more familiar with the first one, but both sound at least OK to me...
I asked an Arabic teacher yesterday, and today he's just told me that it's correct in both readings, and even more it's also correct as yaHS*i*lu, too!
Unfortunately I couldn't find any other resources to prove that, but by a simple search on the internet the word seems to be used in all three forms...
Hoping this could be of any help!


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## Andrew___

Thanks Elroy for your nice post.



elroy said:


> Uh, as I said, this particular phenomenon is obviously not due to dialectal interference.



I realised that you would make this comment about 5 minutes after I posted the thread, but by that time I was in bed, and decided to sit it out so as not to disrupt my circadian rhythms.

May I question your assumption though ُElroy, and request you re-consider the above statement.  Could it not be the result of dialectical interference which causes you to say yaHSal, not from PA but from _other _dialects in the Arabic world?  I am thinking in particular of the Egyptian dialect which you must have heard extensively throughout your life from films and songs.

Is it possible that EA is influencing you here?  Grateful for your thoughts.

المخلص
أندرو


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## Andrew___

be.010 said:


> and even more it's also correct as yaHS*i*lu, too!



Wow, what I say to that guy is:

 !لازم يبطّل يأكل حشيش

How strange that he would suggest such a thing!


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## elroy

be.010 said:


> Personally, I heard both yaHSalu and yaHSulu... I am, too, more familiar with the first one, but both sound at least OK to me...


 Thanks for providing further confirmation that I'm not out of my mind. 


Andrew___ said:


> Could it not be the result of dialectical interference which causes you to say yaHSal, not from PA but from _other _dialects in the Arabic world?


 You must have missed this part of my post: "Maybe speakers of _other_ dialects in which this verb is commonly used and pronounced with a fat7a, pronounce it that way in MSA due to interference, and that pronunciation somehow spread to the Holy Land?".

So I guess it's possible. We'd have to wait, though, for an Egyptian to tell us how the verb is generally pronounced in that dialect.





Andrew___ said:


> !لازم يبطّل يحشّش


 I agree.


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## Mahaodeh

Just to note, ياكل حشيش is not the same as يحشش: see this thread, post nine. .


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## elroy

Mahaodeh said:


> Just to note, ياكل حشيش is not the same as يحشش: see this thread, post nine. .


 Ah, interesting.   Thanks.

Do you have any thoughts on the pronunciation of يحصل?


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## cherine

In Egypt, we say ye7Sal in 3ammeya, but ya7Sulu in fuS7a.

Andrew, I heard ya7Sil before, so you shouldn't laugh at someone just because he's saying something you haven't heard before. This isn't very nice.

P.S. I guess we all need to remember that there are several Arabic verbs that have more than one correct pronunciation.


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## elroy

This is hilarious!   When I mentioned "ya7Sil," I was totally convinced it was 100% wrong and ridiculous-sounding to everyone.  Wow!  I can't believe *all three* vowels are used!

So you personally say "ya7Sulu," Cherine.  What about other Egyptians you know?  Does everyone in Egypt say "ya7Sulu" or does "ya7Salu" occur as well?


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## cherine

No, Elroy, I meant that ya7Sulu is used when we read fuS7a. The colloquial is only ye7Sal (2 different vowels from fuS7a). Unless another Egyptian in the forum knows of another version.


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## elroy

Oops, I misread your "we" as "I." 

So in Egypt, the common pronunciation in MSA is "ya7Sulu."  That means that my pronunciation ("ya7Salu") can't be due to an Egyptian influence.

Given that be.010 also finds "ya7Salu" natural, I'm beginning to suspect that it might actually be a _Levantine_ thing.  I wonder if the verb is actually common in non-Palestinian Levantine dialects...


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## cherine

I thought about the Levantine thing myself, when I saw that you both said the same thing. I think that there's more than one MSA version of many words, expressions and usages. Each country or region chooses the form they prefer.


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## Mahaodeh

Lisaan al 3arab and Taaj al 3aroos mention only حَصَلَ يَحْصُلُ and do not mention anything about يحصَلُ or يحصِلُ. They also mention another verb من باب فرح of a different meaning, that is: حَصِلَت الدابة تَحْصَلُ إذا أكلت الحصى فبقي في جوفها. I'm guessing حَوْصَلَة is probably derived from that verb not the first one.

It seems to me that الأفصح أن يقال يَحْصُلُ; this thing happens in quite a few verbs that I have come accross, if you change باب الفعل the meaning changes (examples would be قَدَرَ وقَدِر أو حَسَبَ وحَسِبَ).


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## اسطورة العرب

تقريبا الجمله صحيحه


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