# Россия vs русский



## Linnets

Hi all,
is there an explanation of the fact that Россия (Russia) has a /o/ and русский (Russian) has a /u/? Is this vowel change common in other words?
Best regards and thanks in advance.


----------



## Awwal12

Россия (and the derived terms like российский) is basically a Grecism from the 16th century. Русь and русский are original native developments.

It seems that Byzantine Greek has loaned the word Ῥῶς directly from the local East European dialect of Old Norse. Old East Slavic, on the other hand, has adapted the original /o:/ (probably through Baltic Finnic dialects) as /u/, since its own /o/ was apparently a much more open vowel.


----------



## lena55313

I can guess that probably the word came from Arabic language. In Arabic they mark sounds o/u with the same letter.


----------



## Awwal12

lena55313 said:


> I can guess that probably the word came from Arabic language. In Arabic they mark sounds o/u with the same letter.


Trouble is, Standard Arabic has only /u:/, missing /o:/ entirely, so it cannot really explain Byzantine Greek /o:/.


----------



## lena55313

Awwal12 said:


> Trouble is, Standard Arabic has only /u:/, missing /o:/ entirely


They did use وُ  for /o:/-sound after some consonants. Mostly in foreign words and after emphatic consonants. I'm not sure about medieval pronunciation of روس, but maybe people used both variants.
Anyway it's just my guess.


----------



## Sobakus

I mean, the route was "from the Varangians to the Greeks", i.e. Norse traders went to Greece, which is consistent with direct borrowing. The closest Arabic speakers were on a different continent, holding only small parts of Anatolia.


----------



## jbionic2010

Sobakus said:


> The closest Arabic speakers were on a different continent, holding only small parts of Anatolia.



The closest Arabic speakers were the top buyers of Russian slaves with the Byzantine acting as intermediary


----------



## Nikined

Awwal12 said:


> Русь and русский are original native developments.


Even "русский"? What about double "c"? How could it be a native development?


----------



## Awwal12

Nikined said:


> Even "русский"? What about double "c"? How could it be a native development?


What's the problem?   Morphologically it's, quite transparently, рус-ск-ий (< Old Rus. рус-ьск-ъ, рус-ьск-ыи).


----------



## Nikined

Awwal12 said:


> What's the problem?   Morphologically it's, quite transparently, рус-ск-ий (< Old Rus. рус-ьск-ъ, рус-ьск-ыи).


I'm sorry, I just heard and thought that double "c" was borrowed from European languages and isn't a Slavic feature. Ukrainian and Belorussian don't spell "русский" with a double "c"


----------



## Awwal12

Nikined said:


> I'm sorry, I just heard and thought that double "c" was borrowed from European languages and isn't a Slavic feature.


In Россия (inside the root), yes.


Nikined said:


> Ukrainian and Belorussian don't spell "русский" with a double "c"


But that's purely the matter of spelling convetions. In Russian -ск- is always fully spelled as long as not preceded by ц (in which case с is dropped as well: казацкий, белецкий, галицкий).


----------



## Sobakus

Nikined said:


> I'm sorry, I just heard and thought that double "c" was borrowed from European languages and isn't a Slavic feature. Ukrainian and Belorussian don't spell "русский" with a double "c"


This is because Ukrainian and Belarusian spelling is largely phonemic - it closer reflects pronunciation - while Russian spelling is between morphophonemic and etymological - it reflects the underlying shape of individual morphemes (roots, affixes) as well as their former, historical pronunciation. Even so, Russian does have native double consonants, including /сс/ (_бессильный_ != _бесильный _); and while most (probably all) Slavic languages simplify them in borrowings, Russian may even randomly introduce them, e.g. in _рас(с)а,_ probably by analogy with _трасса_.


----------



## Nikined

Sobakus said:


> Russian may even randomly introduce them


You mean undereducated Russians? I haven't seen "расса" anywhere except certain internet discussions



Sobakus said:


> _рас(с)а,_ probably by analogy with _трасса_


Probably because German lacks "c" with vowels and has to use "ss" instead



Sobakus said:


> This is because Ukrainian and Belarusian spelling is largely phonemic - it closer reflects pronunciation -


What about all other Slavic languages which don't use double "c" in "русский", are they all phonemic too?


----------



## Awwal12

Nikined said:


> Probably because German lacks "c" with vowels and has to use "ss" instead


That. Расса is an old Germanism.


Nikined said:


> What about all other Slavic languages which don't use double "c" in "русский", are they all phonemic too?


I don't really see why you're so concerned about русский in particular, as the languages normally treat that morphemic border in a rather uniform manner.
Rus.: русский, черкасский, вепсский
Ukr.: руський, черкаський, вепський
Blr.: рускi, чаркаскi, вепскi
Cz: rusky, čerkasky, vepsky


----------



## Sobakus

Nikined said:


> You mean undereducated Russians? I haven't seen "расса" anywhere except certain internet discussions


No, any Russians who pronounce it with two с's, like me for example. I'm talking about introducing double consonants into the standard pronunciation; whether they're spelled or not in the standard orthography doesn't matter. If someone spells two but doesn't pronounce them, it's simply a typo.


Nikined said:


> What about all other Slavic languages which don't use double "c" in "русский", are they all phonemic too?


I think almost all other Slavic languages use spelling that is phonemic - except Bosnian-Serbian-Croatian-Montenegrin, which uses almost fully phonetic spelling (if we forget their infuriating non-marking of accent type and vowel length), so pretty much identical to the actual pronunciation. If there are any exceptions, the word "русский" should be a good litmus test.


----------



## Konstantinos

Nikined said:


> I'm sorry, I just heard and thought that double "c" was borrowed from European languages and isn't a Slavic feature. Ukrainian and Belorussian don't spell "русский" with a double "c"


There are no European languages. There are Indo-European languages. I suppose you meant something like Romance - Latin languages or Germanic languages.


----------



## Awwal12

Konstantinos said:


> I suppose you meant something like Romance - Latin languages or Germanic languages.


Sure - all heavily influenced by Latin and Ancient Greek in one way or another, with a nearly universal French influence to the top of it.


----------



## Konstantinos

Awwal12 said:


> Sure - all heavily influenced by Latin and Ancient Greek in one way or another, with a nearly universal French influence to the top of it.


French and English influences are more modern than Ancient Greek and Latin. I think any difference between, lets say, Russian and Ukrainian should be related 100% to modern influences. So his question should be something like that: "Was there any modern influence by Romance or Germanic languages to some East Slavic (not Russian) languages that use only one "с" in русский, instead of double "с" that was used on Old East Slavic: русьскъ??


----------



## Awwal12

Konstantinos said:


> I think any difference between, lets say, Russian and Ukrainian should be related 100% to modern influences


Well, I wouldn't call Polish and Church Slavonic influences of the 14th - 18th centuries really "modern".


----------

