# Arabic in France



## Gianne

How common is the usage of Arabic in France? Would it be a useful language to learn if living in France?


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## linguist786

Well I've never actually been there, but I know it is common mainly amongst the immigrants (who come from an Arab origin) and people of maghrébine origin. I reckon it would mainly be used in the run-down places of France if you like, since that's where a lot of them live! (les banlieues - outskirts of cities)

In terms of "should you learn it?" - not really. A quoi bon? The people from Arab-speaking backgrounds mostly speak French anyway.. (Unless you want to know what they're talking about! )


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## Gianne

I was thinking also about business and international trade. Isn't much of the Arab world following China's suit and opening to global business. Arabic could be a useful language to learn in light of recent developments. It has a beautiful written form, and might be particularly helpful in France....


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## linguist786

I absolutely agree with you - Arabic is a beautiful language and, personally, I would learn it (which I am doing!) even if it wasn't anything to do with where it's spoken in France!

I think it's a useful language to learn too, especially in light of how the Middle-East is mentioned in the news more than ever nowadays - due to alsorts of reasons.


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## panjabigator

I think it would be useful to learn for France, as like 12% of France is muslim (I dont mean to imply that Arabic speakers and Islam is at all by any means synonymous here...)


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## bpipoly

If you plan to talk to people in the French surburbs or live on the Mediterranean, Arabic will be very useful since there are large immigrant populations. 

I am planning to study in Marseille with American University Center of Provence. The focus of the program is cross-cultural communication and Mediterranean issues, and part of coursework includes studying Arabic. 

I am interested to know why you want to study Arabic. Right now, I am considering get in PhD in Comparative Literature and using Arabic as one my languages.


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## barkley04

panjabigator said:
			
		

> I think it would be useful to learn for France, as like 12% of France is muslim (I dont mean to imply that Arabic speakers and Islam is at all by any means synonymous here...)


yes, indeed, the french from an arab origin are quite present in france and they are called les beurs or "les arabes français". modern standard arabic is not spoken in france like the dialects mainly tunisian,algerian and moroccan.


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## geve

barkley04 said:
			
		

> yes, indeed, the french from an arab origin are quite present in france and *they are called les beurs* or "les arabes français". modern standard arabic is not spoken in france like the dialects mainly tunisian,algerian and moroccan.


...which led to the motto "la France black blanc beur" to express the will of integration (a reinterpretation of the bleu-blanc-rouge of the French flag) 

You wouldn't have to go to the _banlieues_ to find a use for your understanding of Arabic, riding the metro or walking in the streets will do.  Unfortunately, if you wanted to be able to spy on all conversations (_I _wish I could!  ), you would need to learn a few other languages (Spanish, Vietnamese, Lingala...)


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## barkley04

geve said:
			
		

> ...which led to the motto "la France black blanc beur" to express the will of integration (a reinterpretation of the bleu-blanc-rouge of the French flag)
> 
> You wouldn't have to go to the _banlieues_ to find a use for your understanding of Arabic, riding the metro or walking in the streets will do.  Unfortunately, if you wanted to be able to spy on all conversations (_I _hope I could!  ), you would need to learn a few other languages (Spanish, Vietnamese, Lingala...)


i know that the french were present in the* indochine *and it is obvious to find vietnamese in france like it is the case of thr maghrebins.
France is inevitably a melting pot flavoured with many cultures and that's the beauty in it.


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## lama

Well,there are 5 million Arabs in france,so Arabic may be helpful.


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## LV4-26

Some figures would be useful here and I don't have them. But how many of them can speak Arabic?
For how many of them can Arabic be said to be their native language? My guess would be less than 5% (the great grandparents, that is provided they've remained in France). But I may be wrong.


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## tafanari

Gianne said:
			
		

> How common is the usage of Arabic in France? Would it be a useful language to learn if living in France?



According to INSEE, about three percent of people in France speak Arabic. This is from a study done in 1999 but I don't think the number of people who speak Arabic goes past five percent in France.

That being said, Arabic is an important language so why not regardless of how much it's used in France?


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## Qcumber

Gianne, do you think France will end up like Spain when it was occupied by Muslims?


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## vince

what?

France is nothing like that. In France, no Muslim holds much political power. The Muslims are generally located in poor areas outside the cities.

Whereas in Al-Andalus, the Muslims were the once who held the money and power.


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## barkley04

vince said:
			
		

> what?
> 
> France is nothing like that. In France, no Muslim holds much political power. The Muslims are generally located in poor areas outside the cities.
> 
> Whereas in Al-Andalus, the Muslims were the once who held the money and power.


I am sorry vince. Not all the rabs are miserable in France. France exists thanks to them and won the second world war thanks to them too.
In France, there are some arabs who hold key positions in the government and in the parliament. Furthermore, the arabs hold an impoprtant share of the commerce and trade in france.
Whereas in al andalus, the rabs were the masters of europe.


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## bpipoly

Qcumber said:
			
		

> Gianne, do you think France will end up like Spain when it was occupied by Muslims?



Please tell me what possessed you to ask something like that.


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## maxiogee

bpipoly said:
			
		

> Qcumber said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gianne, do you think France will end up like Spain when it was occupied by Muslims?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please tell me what possessed you to ask something like that.
Click to expand...


Because Spain, under the Moors, was a flourishing centre of culture and learning, tolerance and trade?  
Spain under the Moors was "a good thing" - unless you look at it from a purely Christian point of view which saw a heretical religion encroach into its "sphere of influence".


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## Brioche

barkley04 said:
			
		

> I am sorry vince. Not all the rabs are miserable in France. France exists thanks to them and won the second world war thanks to them too.


 
The French won WWII thanks to the Arabs?
The Nazis were defeated by the combination of American money and Russian blood.


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## badgrammar

The French may well win the World Cup tonight thanks to the "Arabs"!  Allah Akhbar! 

Yes, you hear Arabic all the time in France, not just in the underpriveldged suburbs!!!!  I'd guess that atleast half of the children born in France to Arabic speaking  immigrant parents speak the language.  It is totally common to overhear Arabic used in conversation everywhere you go.  It usually gets lots of French mixed into it and so as you listen you hear French words get dropped in.  Very funny.
But I don't know why you'd want to learn Arabic speifically to come to France.  French is fine to come here.  It would be strange to learn Arabic to come to France!  Not wrong, just peculiar!


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## maxiogee

barkley04 said:
			
		

> France … won the second world war



They did?
I thought that all the European combatants were the losers - and only survived after the war because of The Marshall Plan.


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## barkley04

To whom it may concern, my grand father fought for the french in france and arabs at that time were threatened by the nazis like the jews.
as far as football is concerned, zineddine zidane has an algerian origin.
tha rabs did a lot for thr french and we are proud of it.


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## LV4-26

Brioche said:
			
		

> The French won WWII thanks to the Arabs?
> The Nazis were defeated by the combination of American money and Russian blood.


 Mmm, Brioche, I think you misquoted Barkley04. (S)he really said _thanks to the Arabs *too. *_Only three letters but which change a lot.

The discussion is pointless, anyway. Arabs ? What Arabs ? I can only see *French people* with Arab grand or great-grandparents. Most of them have never set foot South of the Mideterranean sea.


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## Qcumber

Let me parody the initial question:
I plan to visit California. Should I learn Filipino?
I plan to visit Germany. Should I learn Turkish?
I plan to visit Hawai'i. Should I learn Japanese?
I plan to visit Britain. Should I learn Pakistani?
I plan to visit Thailand. Should I learn Hokkien Chinese?
It was humouristic, wasn't it?


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## Qcumber

barkley04 said:
			
		

> as far as football is concerned, Zineddine Zidane has an Algerian origin. The Arabs did a lot for the French and we are proud of it.


 
I'm afraid borrowed glories have not much value. Besides, if a nation counts on foreigners to succeed, it is obviously bound to fail as a nation and become an occupied country.


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## badgrammar

barkley04 said:
			
		

> To whom it may concern, my grand father fought for the french in france and arabs at that time were threatened by the nazis like the jews.
> as far as football is concerned, zineddine zidane has an algerian origin.
> tha rabs did a lot for thr french and we are proud of it.



Yes, it's true that a lot of North Africans fought and died serving France, a fact that is little recognized.  I wish I could offer more information about it, I think there is a lot out there.  I once saw a short film based on the subject made by a group of students near Amiens, France.  It was called "Somme Wars", because of the numerous N African soldiers who died in the Somme regions in France.

And yes! Zidane and several other key players on the Bleus team are of arabic origin!  There's more black and beurre than blanc on the team!!!!


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## barkley04

Qcumber said:
			
		

> I'm afraid borrowed glories have not much value. Besides, if a nation counts on foreigners to succeed, it is obviously bound to fail as a nation and become an occupied country.


Yes indeed, like the english who depend upon the indians and the pakistanese to get a ride and on the chinese and the sri lankese in order to drink tea.


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## barkley04

badgrammar said:
			
		

> Yes, it's true that a lot of North Africans fought and died serving France, a fact that is little recognized.  I wish I could offer more information about it, I think there is a lot out there.  I once saw a short film based on the subject made by a group of students near Amiens, France.  It was called "Somme Wars", because of the numerous N African soldiers who died in the Somme regions in France.
> 
> And yes! Zidane and several other key players on the Bleus team are of arabic origin!  There's more black and beurre than blanc on the team!!!!


That is absolutely right. 100%.


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## Gianne

Thanks everyone for the interesting comments and views. I think it's certainly a pertinent topic in french culture. Qcumber - your analogy is NOT my original question. I am trying to hear views on the prevalence of arabic in France. It's not a 'need to learn it' to 'visit' - i already speak french fluenty and have studied french language and culture for several years. What I am interested in hearing is people's views on how useful it would be to know Arabic in the context of life in France - along with French, obviously, but specifically *Arabic* . Based on the colonial history alone, France has several links with Northern Africa, the Mediterranean and the arab cultures therin. Several prominent french writers have emerged from northern africa and that maghrebin culture - Camus, Djebar, Ben Jelloun, to name a few. It seems that in politcs and everyday life, Arabic culture plays an important role in France. I wonder how long it will be before it becomes a part of the commercial, corporate and educational sectors in France... if it hasn't already, or if at all. This is what I'm interested in hearing perspectives on. It seems that, along with knowing french fluently, Arabic would be a worthwhile language to know for enhancing one's communication in France. When Arabic is spoken in France, is it standard Arabic, or specific dialects from Lebanon, Morocco, Algeria etc?? 
Thanks for all the comments people!


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## LV4-26

To Giannne :
Right. Coming back to your first question, I'll repeat what I already said differently. Arabic is not at all common in France and I don't think it would be useful for you to learn it. Actually, I've been living in France for a good number of years and I've never heard Arabic spoken except when I used to be a singer in a Greek (yes! it would be too long to explain) catholic church.

To others :
*There are absolutely no foreigners in any international sporting team*. It's (understandably) against the rules.


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## vince

LV4-26 said:
			
		

> Mmm, Brioche, I think you misquoted Barkley04. (S)he really said _thanks to the Arabs *too. *_Only three letters but which change a lot.
> 
> The discussion is pointless, anyway. Arabs ? What Arabs ? I can only see *French people* with Arab grand or great-grandparents. Most of them have never set foot South of the Mideterranean sea.


That would be ideal. I too am in favor of abandoning the notion of race, that people who are of French culture and born in France are 100% pure French, regardless of what their skin color or "blood" is.

But the truth is, racism exists in France. I don't think many of these people with immigrant parents and grandparents are socially accepted as French. As such, there is segregation going on, and thus there are places where a knowledge of Arabic would be useful.



			
				LV4-26 said:
			
		

> *There are absolutely no foreigners in any international sporting team*. It's (understandably) against the rules.



For those who believe that anyone who is not of French "blood" (whatever that means) is a foreigner, then all national sports teams are "contaminated".


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## badgrammar

I really don't agree.  To say that Arabic "isn't not at all common in France" just seems wrong to me.  Maybe you don't hear it often where you live, but I hear it basically everyday when I am out and about.

As per foreigners on international sports teams like the Bleus, we can refer to origins without looking at what their passport says.  Of course, someone like Zidane is French, but he also has Algerian origins.  We don't have to deny that he has these origins to make the point that he is (also) French.  My children are French, but there's no denying that they are also Amercan.  Two passports, two languages, two cultural identities. 



			
				LV4-26 said:
			
		

> To Giannne :
> Right. Coming back to your first question, I'll repeat what I already said differently. Arabic is not at all common in France and I don't think it would be useful for you to learn it. Actually, I've been living in France for a good number of years and I've never heard Arabic spoken except when I used to be a singer in a Greek (yes! it would be too long to explain) catholic church.
> 
> To others :
> *There are absolutely no foreigners in any international sporting team*. It's (understandably) against the rules.


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## badgrammar

I guess I would sum it up like this:  Don't learn Arabic to come to France, learn Arabic to go to Arabic-speaking countries (and then bring it with you when you visit France!).  If you want to learn Arabic, that entails interest/immersion/traveling to those places and learning about those cultures.  Go to Morocco, Tunisia, Algeria, or any of the other Arabic speaking countries outside of the mediterranian bassin and soak up the culture and language...  And then, yes, when you travel to France, you can always use that knowledge to communicate with Arabic speakers here. 

But in France, I don't see any kind of future expansion/development of Arabic into a a part of the commercial, corporate or educational sectors.  One reason for this is that most people in the Maghreb learn French from a young age, especially those who migrate here.  They don't seem to expect to find things in Arabic here.



			
				Gianne said:
			
		

> Thanks everyone for the interesting comments and views. I think it's certainly a pertinent topic in french culture. Qcumber - your analogy is NOT my original question. I am trying to hear views on the prevalence of arabic in France. It's not a 'need to learn it' to 'visit' - i already speak french fluenty and have studied french language and culture for several years. What I am interested in hearing is people's views on how useful it would be to know Arabic in the context of life in France - along with French, obviously, but specifically *Arabic* . Based on the colonial history alone, France has several links with Northern Africa, the Mediterranean and the arab cultures therin. Several prominent french writers have emerged from northern africa and that maghrebin culture - Camus, Djebar, Ben Jelloun, to name a few. It seems that in politcs and everyday life, Arabic culture plays an important role in France. I wonder how long it will be before it becomes a part of the commercial, corporate and educational sectors in France... if it hasn't already, or if at all. This is what I'm interested in hearing perspectives on. It seems that, along with knowing french fluently, Arabic would be a worthwhile language to know for enhancing one's communication in France. When Arabic is spoken in France, is it standard Arabic, or specific dialects from Lebanon, Morocco, Algeria etc??
> Thanks for all the comments people!


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## barkley04

LV4-26 said:
			
		

> Mmm, Brioche, I think you misquoted Barkley04. (S)he really said _thanks to the Arabs *too. *_Only three letters but which change a lot.
> 
> The discussion is pointless, anyway. Arabs ? What Arabs ? I can only see *French people* with Arab grand or great-grandparents. Most of them have never set foot South of the Mideterranean sea.


Thaks for you understood my point of view. But allow me to say if you please that french from a tunisian origin come to tunisia in summer every year and that act is meaningful. Don't you think so?


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## LV4-26

barkley04 said:
			
		

> But allow me to say if you please that french from a tunisian origin come to tunisia in summer every year and that act is meaningful. Don't you think so?


 Granted. I agree with that and I understand it.

I'd started a long post about that because there would be a lot to say but I realized it was off-topic. Suffice it to say that I have evidence that most immigrants' descendants in France feel French... French and...yes, a little Moroccan, Algerian, Tunisian, Camerounese...the proportion depending on how much they feel accepted in France. An individual is from where (s)he feels at home. That works for me at least : I feel from nowhere and everywhere. Lucky me


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