# издревле



## poisongift

Does this word necessarily mean that the action continues to this day (because of the "из" i.e. "издавна") or can it simply mean that something was a certain way "a long time ago"?

Thanks


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## Rosett

poisongift said:


> Does this word necessarily mean that the action continues to this day (because of the "из" i.e. "издавна") or can it simply mean that something was a certain way "a long time ago"?
> 
> Thanks


Not necessarily. The action could have stopped in the meantime, having had lasted very long time before that.
This would normally depend on the subjacent verb of action and its tense, and, by expansion, on the entire context:
"Ни у кого не вызывает сомнения, что в Крыму издревле жили киммерийцы, тавры, скифы. Известно также, что в начале нашей эры эти народы исчезли, ..."


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## Q-cumber

poisongift said:


> Does this word necessarily mean that the action continues to this day (because of the "из" i.e. "издавна") or can it simply mean that something was a certain way "a long time ago"?
> 
> Thanks


Yes, usually it means that some action or condition continues to this day. Synonyms: исстари, издавна. However, as Rosett pointed out, in particular contexts the word might mean 'from old centuries (or so) and until some specified historical moment / period'. Actually 'a long time ago' meaning is also possible (context-specific).


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## Maroseika

Издревле, издавна, исстари mean:
1. С давних пор.
2. Очень давно.
Exact meaning depends on the verb tense:
Они жили там издревле (жили там в древности, очень давно и теперь уже не живут).
Они живут там издревле (живут там с давних пор).


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## Rosett

Maroseika said:


> Exact meaning depends on the verb tense:
> Они жили там издревле (жили там в древности, очень давно и теперь уже не живут).
> Они живут там издревле (живут там с давних пор).


The verb tense alone (unless it is давнопрошедшее время) may be not enough to define the exact meaning of "издревле":
"... *даже вещи святых издревле были предметом благоговейного почитания верующих. **Во все времена христиане благочестиво сохраняли и почитали любые останки святых, даже сохранившиеся в виде костей, праха или пепла, которые также именовали святыми мощами *..."

Давнопрошедшее время would rather refer to an action that would have stopped in the past:
""Хорош наш государь, потому как быстр на расправу", - так издревле говаривали на Руси. (Культура, 02-06-2005)"


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## Cheburator

Maroseika said:


> Exact meaning depends on the verb tense:
> Они жили там издревле (жили там в древности, очень давно и теперь уже не живут).
> Они живут там издревле (живут там с давних пор).


Without more context, I would say that both sentences might mean the same, i.e. the first one could also be understood as "they are still living there" unless we know somehow that they aren't.


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## Cheburator

Rosett said:


> Давнопрошедшее время would rather refer to an action that would have stopped in the past:
> ""Хорош наш государь, потому как быстр на расправу", - так издревле говаривали на Руси. (Культура, 02-06-2005)"


The same here: I don't think that this phrase necessarily means that people don't say it now, at least to me it might mean that "people would say that of yore, and they might say it now from time to time.


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## Vovan

Cheburator said:


> Without more context, I would say that both sentences might mean the same


Exactly my thoughts; and the same can also be said about Rosett's examples in post 5.


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## Rosett

Vovan said:


> Exactly my thoughts; and the same can also be said about Rosett's examples in post 5.


It is not contemporary Russian; that's why.


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## Rosett

Without context, it is still possible to express the meaning of "издревле", based solely on the tense:
"И это ведь издревле было предсказано (Пс.21:19). Хотя распяты были трое, но предсказания пророков исполнялись только на Нем."


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## Vovan

Rosett said:


> It is not contemporary Russian; that's why.


*Говаривали* (= поговаривали; просторечье) proudly belongs to Modern Russian. I use it all the time as part of a widely-used semi-idiom:
_Люди разное говаривали, но правду не знает никто.
_​_


Rosett said:






			И это ведь издревле было предсказано

Click to expand...



Click to expand...

_And this one is definitely not Standard Russian.

All in all, my opinion is that *издревле* means what it means, that is "since/from the ancient times".

And my example of издревле meaning "from the ancient times" is:
_Поверье шло издревле. (здесь: шло = пришло)_​


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## Rosett

Vovan said:


> *Говаривали* (= поговаривали; просторечье) proudly belongs to Modern Russian. I use it all the time as part of a widely-used semi-idiom:
> _Люди разное говаривали, но правду не знает никто._​


I must correct your remark and insist on:
"Хорош наш государь, потому как быстр на расправу" - that is not Modern Russian.
We do not speak like that any more, it is a historical saying.



Vovan said:


> And this one is definitely not Standard Russian.
> 
> All in all, my opinion is that *издревле* means what it means, that is "since/from the ancient times".
> 
> And my example of издревле meaning "from the ancient times" is:
> _Поверье шло издревле. (здесь: шло = пришло)_​


I must refer you Maroseika's post #4 for the information about possible meanings of *издревле *found in dictionaries*.*
And I believe you can tell between "предсказано" and "было предсказано" in the terms of Russian grammar.


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## Vovan

Rosett said:


> Хорош наш государь, потому как быстр на расправу" - that is not Modern Russian.


Formally, nothing indicates that.


Rosett said:


> I must refer you Maroseika's post #4 for the information about possible meanings of *издревле *found in dictionaries*.*


I would appreciate it if you gave me a link to one such dictionary.


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## Rosett

Vovan said:


> Formally, nothing indicates that.


We don't speak like that any more.
Could you please find an independent modern example of that saying in order to prove the allegation?



Vovan said:


> I would appreciate it if you gave me a link to one such dictionary.


Your lack of basic correctness cannot help you nor the discussion:

Толковый словарь Ожегова.
*издревле*
 - с древних времен, издавна
Пример: И. укоренившиеся обряды.

Ефремова Т.Ф. Толковый словарь русского языка.
*издревле*
нареч. устар.
С давних времен; исстари.

*издревле*
Старославянское – древле (прежде, когда-то).
Слово встречается в памятниках письменности с XI в. Оно не является иностранным заимствованием, пришло в древнерусский язык из старославянского. В современном языке слово не является широко употребительным. *Издревле* значит «давно, из глубины веков».
Этимологический словарь русского языка. М.: Русский язык от А до Я. Издательство <ЮНВЕС> Москва 2003


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## Vovan

Rosett said:


> Could you please find an independent modern example of that saying in order to prove the allegation?


"Хороша Маша, да не наша".
"Падок на женщин".
"Потому как" is also widely used in colloquial speech.
I can't really see what archaic you found in that sentence you provided...


Rosett said:


> Your like of basic correctness cannot help:


What do these entries prove? None of them gives Maroseika's "очень давно".


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## Rosett

Vovan said:


> What do these entries prove? None of them gives Maroseika's "очень давно".


Ask Maroseika. I think "давно" in #16 is fair enough.


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## Rosett

Vovan said:


> "Хороша Маша, да не наша".
> "Падок на женщин".
> "Потому как" is also widely used in colloquial speech.
> I can't really see what archaic you found in that sentence you provided...


It doesn't have to be archaic.
Please find an example of modern usage of that saying. I wasn't able to find any, except of the reference from "Культура" (2005) posted above, which indicates clearly that it is no longer modern and belongs to the times before or around Peter The Great.


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## Vovan

Rosett said:


> Ask Maroseika. I think "давно" is fair enough.


He gave ways of paraphrasing, not meanings _per se_. And he didn't mention any dictionaries.
As for "очень давно", it is a loose synonym of "издревле".


Rosett said:


> Please find an example of modern usage of that saying. I wasn't able to find any.


What do you mean by a "saying"? What you quoted was an ordinary sentence... Maybe we don't _say that_, but we certainly _speak like that_.


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## Vovan

Rosett said:


> I think "давно" in #16 is fair enough.


But surely not enough to define a meaning, especially in a dictionary.


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## Q-cumber

I'm recollecting one more idiomatic synonym - "испок*о*н в*е*ку (век*о*в)". It usually implies 'traditionally'.

Армия испокон веку была мужским делом.
Они жили там испокон веку.


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## Rosett

Vovan said:


> What do you mean by a "saying"? What you quoted was an ordinary sentence... Maybe we don't _say that_, but we certainly _speak like that_.


It is an actual saying of the old, possibly archaic times, quoted by qualified authors of "Культура": ask them. For our purposes, it demonstrates clearly that давнопрошедшее время can define certain meaning of *издревле*.



Vovan said:


> But surely not enough to define a meaning, especially in a dictionary.


"Давно" comes from a specialized edited dictionary, which is well above such loosely posted counter arguments, and would cover specific meaning of "очень давно" by wide margins.


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## Vovan

*Rosett*, in a definition, what is defined must be equal to what it is defined with.
"(Очень) давно" and "издревле" do not match, and that is obvious.
In the dictionary it is "давно, из глубины веков", not just "давно".

(As for "Культура (2005)" and "Этимологический словарь" Семенова, I honestly don't understand what makes you appreciate any of them so highly: the first is we-do-not-know-what, and the latter's number of copies was some 5,000. Nice sources!)


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