# declension of first names



## katie_here

I've noticed something about the way names are written down. 

Lucas was written as Lukaszu in an earlier thread,  I've seen my friend Jacek name written as Jacu? 

I don't understand about this.   Why are names not written down as they are, for example,  my name - Katrina is always written Katrina. 

Thanks.


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## Thomas1

katie_here said:


> I've noticed something about the way names are written down.
> 
> Lucas was written as Lukaszu in an earlier thread,  I've seen my friend Jacek name written as Jacu?
> 
> I don't understand about this.   Why are names not written down as they are, for example,  my name - Katrina is always written Katrina.
> 
> Thanks.


Hello, Katrina, 

There are a few reasons for declining or not forenames.

1. Polish has a declension system composed of seven cases, which means that you need to tack an appropriate ending to a noun according to a few parameters. For example:
Nominative Łukasz
Accusative Łukasza
Dative Łukaszowi
Genitive Łukasza
Locative Łukaszu
Instrumental Łukaszem
Vocative Łukaszu

As you can see the form Łukaszu appears in locative and vocative.

2. Some names are often not declined, usually these are foreign names. It doesn't mean they can't be, although I _suppose_ it also may be the case in few instances, but they may sound strange when declined. I don't know why your name isn't declined, but what I can say is that you may have heard it always in nominative, especially when used in English , or not heard the ending.

3. Jacu, is a pretty colloquial alteration of Jacek. It has a sort of blokey tinge to it. I suppose this form is mainly used in the nominative.

Tom


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## slavic_one

katie_here said:


> my name - Katrina is always written Katrina.



In English yes, but in Polish (like in Croatian, Czech..) would be "hello Katrino"!


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## kknd

I think that 'Jacu' is vocative of 'Jaco' (diminitive or sth); vocative of 'Jacek' would be 'Jacku'. That friend of yours still maintains using vocative when addressing somebody is really commendable. Most speakers of Polish use nominative with names, but use vocative when addressing using titles however (_Proszę Pana, Pani Jadziu_).


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## katie_here

kknd said:


> I think that 'Jacu' is vocative of 'Jaco' (diminitive or sth); vocative of 'Jacek' would be 'Jacku'.


 
That was probably my error in my understanding. I'm only just learning this language so I'm on basic words at the moment. 

I think I need to learn about grammatical cases. These are all new to me, but reasearching on Wikipedia I found grammatical cases I've never heard of.



> In English yes, but in Polish (like in Croatian, Czech..) would be "hello Katrino"!


 
What makes it an "o" on the end and not a "u", "iu", or a "ie" in these examples? 


_Krzysztof_ (Christopher)-----_Krzysztofie!_ (Christopher!)
_Krzyś_ (diminutive form of _Krzysztof_)------_Krzysiu!_
_Ewusia_ (diminutive form of _Ewa_)--------_Ewusiu!_
_Marek_ (Mark)------_Marku!_


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## Thomas1

slavic_one said:


> In English yes, but in Polish (like in Croatian, Czech..) would be "hello Katrino"!


Technically this is correct, however, I doubt many Poles would use vocative here. To my ears it sounds overaffected. The most common form would still be the nominative.


kknd said:


> I think that 'Jacu' is vocative of 'Jaco' (diminitive or sth); vocative of 'Jacek' would be 'Jacku'. That friend of yours still maintains using vocative when addressing somebody is really commendable. Most speakers of Polish use nominative with names, but use vocative when addressing using titles however (_Proszę Pana, Pani Jadziu_).


Jaco doesn't sound natural in Polish. I have never heard this form but I have heard people use Jacu as nominative.
Katrina, could you please give an example where you saw it written (in whatever language)?

The usage of vocative is petering out, I'm afraid. There are people who sitll use it, I also do it sometimes, but even they do not do it with all names because it sounds sort of stillted. The most common form is in fact nominative.



katie_here said:


> That was probably my error in my understanding. I'm only just learning this language so I'm on basic words at the moment.
> 
> I think I need to learn about grammatical cases. These are all new to me, but reasearching on Wikipedia I found grammatical cases I've never heard of.
> 
> 
> 
> What makes it an "o" on the end and not a "u", "iu", or a "ie" in these examples?
> 
> 
> _Krzysztof_ (Christopher)-----_Krzysztofie!_ (Christopher!)
> _Krzyś_ (diminutive form of _Krzysztof_)------_Krzysiu!_
> _Ewusia_ (diminutive form of _Ewa_)--------_Ewusiu!_
> _Marek_ (Mark)------_Marku!_


It depends on the type of declension a noun belongs to. There are quite many of them in Polish. I think that if a feminine noun that ends in a vowel that is not softened then the ending is o--> Katrino.

Tom


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## kknd

Vocative of personal names is fading off... at the beginning I also felt weird when speaking this (hearing is easier! ) – but after using it for some time I've got accustomed; I feel it very nice and kind to address somebody directly by 'Jacku, ...' and not only urging for somebody's attention: 'Jacek, ...' without addressing the person. Nonetheless as my predecessor said most people would use nominative here... to my dismay.

Indeed people doesn't perceive _Jacu_ as vocative, but it really must be, even if many overuse it in nominal contexts (similarly saying _Jasiu_ in nominal context, even if it grammatically is vocative); this is completely different matter.


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## slavic_one

Thomas1 said:
			
		

> Technically this is correct, however, I doubt many Poles would use vocative here. To my ears it sounds overaffected. The most common form would still be the nominative.



Yea yea, I myself have a friend Katarina (lets say it's our version of Katrina) who is Croat and I also say to her more often Katarina (nominative) than Katarino (vocative), but only because as you said in nominative that name sounds more common, but right would be Katarino! The thing that I wanted to show is that her (Katrina, topic starter) name is not always Katrina (in Slavic languages) !


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## katie_here

slavic_one said:


> Yea yea, I myself have a friend Katarina (lets say it's our version of Katrina) who is Croat and I also say to her more often Katarina (nominative) than Katarino (vocative), but only because as you said in nominative that name sounds more common, but right would be Katarino! The thing that I wanted to show is that her (Katrina, topic starter) name is not always Katrina (in Slavic languages) !


 
I did get called Kathrin(e) at one point.   Not sure of the spelling because I only heard it.   I knew someone from Bosnia who called me Katrin.  It is strange for me as an English person to hear my name said differently, but it gets shortened here to Kat and Kate so I get used to it pretty quickly.


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## mcibor

To say the truth I think that name Kartina is Katarzyna in Polish, with diminutive form: Kasia

And this would decline as:
Nominative Katarzyna // Kasia (who?)
 Genitive Katarzyny // Kasi (whose?)
 Dative Katarzynie // Kasi (whom?)
Accusative Katarzynę // Kasię (who do I "see"?)
Locative Katarzyną // Kasią (with whom?)
Instrumental Katarzynie // Kasi (about whom?)
Vocative Katarzyno // Kasiu (calling)

Here is a list of your name (not only though) in various languages.


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## BezierCurve

Just a small correction:



> Instrumental Katarzyną // Kasią (with whom?)
> Locative Katarzynie // Kasi (about whom?)


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## mcibor

Sorry, I was never good with Latin


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## gvergara

Hi,


Thomas1 said:


> Some names are often not declined, usually these are foreign names.


As regards Chilean names, I have got two questions in using the vocative in these cases:

Many male masculine nouns end in consontants (hard or soft), would Polish speakers actually use the declined forms _Ramonie _and _Leonelu _(when addressing _Ramon _and _Leonel_, respectively)?
A group of masculine names end in _o (such as _Mario_), and some feminine names end in letters other than _a (usually consonants (for example _Soledad_), but also _o (take _Loreto_)). Would these be declined at all?
I gather from the above discussion that the vocative forms are less and less commonly used, so I guess using their respective nominative forms would be correct, but still I would like to know whether or not Polish speakers would bother declining them.

Thanks a lot in advance,

G.


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## jasio

gvergara said:


> As regards Chilean names, I have got two questions in using the vocative in these cases:
> 
> Many male masculine nouns end in consontants (hard or soft), would Polish speakers actually use the declined forms _Ramonie _and _Leonelu _(when addressing _Ramon _and _Leonel_, respectively)?


Technically it's correct. But see below. 



gvergara said:


> A group of masculine names end in _o (such as _Mario_), and some feminine names end in letters other than _a (usually consonants (for example _Soledad_), but also _o (take _Loreto_)). Would these be declined at all?


I would use the Nominative case form - even though saying "Loreto" in vocative could lead to confusion whether the Nominative is Loreto or Loreta. 



gvergara said:


> I gather from the above discussion that the vocative forms are less and less commonly used, so I guess using their respective nominative forms would be correct,


The Vocative case does not disappear (noone would say "pan dyrektor" when addressing someone, instead of "panie dyrektorze"). Indeed, in case of personal names it's often merged with the Nominative case. I even remember a colleague, who complained against using a proper Vocative form of her first name in an email. Even if it's extreme, using the Nominative form in Vocative case is quite common.


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## Drakonica

1. I've never heard this names, but they sounds to me as names of ancient philosophers, so official forms "Ramonie" and "Leonelu" fit great to them 

2. Yes, it is possible to decline names ending with -o.

https://odmiana.net/odmiana-przez-przypadki-imienia-Zbyszko
Mianownik (kto? co?):Zbyszko
- Dopełniacz (kogo? czego?):Zbyszka
- Celownik (komu? czemu?):Zbyszkowi
- Biernik (kogo? co?):Zbyszka
- Narzędnik (z kim? z czym?):ze Zbyszkiem
- Miejscownik (o kim? o czym?) Zbyszku
- Wołacz (hej!):Zbyszku!

https://odmiana.net/odmiana-przez-przypadki-imienia-Mario
- Mianownik (kto? co?):Mario
- Dopełniacz (kogo? czego?):Maria
- Celownik (komu? czemu?):Mariowi
- Biernik (kogo? co?):Mario
- Narzędnik (z kim? z czym?):z Mariem
- Miejscownik (o kim? o czym?) Mariu
- Wołacz (hej!):Mario!
But the name "Mario" you can find not declined, too.

Female name without -a at the end is a very strange idea for Poles, it may be declined
- Soledad
- Soledady
- Soledadzie
- Soledad
- Soledadą
- Soledadzie
- Soledado
but probably will be stayed in the oryginal form.

The only popular (from a book) foreign female name without -a is "Nel". It is not declined.
https://odmiana.net/odmiana-przez-przypadki-imienia-Nel

p.s.
Nominative case usined as a vocative is posible only with standalone names:
- Anrzej, chodź tu.

But if there is name and surname:
- Andrzeju Kowalski, chodź tu.
or name with a proun:
- Panie Andrzeju, chodź tu.
or you add any other word describing this name:
- Kolego Andrzeju, chodź tu.
- Mój Andrzeju, chodź tu.
- Dobry Andrzeju, chodź tu.
- Andrzeju z Warszawy, chodź tu.
you must use a regular vocative.


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## Ben Jamin

A





kknd said:


> I think that 'Jacu' is vocative of 'Jaco' (diminitive or sth); vocative of 'Jacek' would be 'Jacku'. That friend of yours still maintains using vocative when addressing somebody is really commendable. Most speakers of Polish use nominative with names, but use vocative when addressing using titles however (_Proszę Pana, Pani Jadziu_).


Avoiding the vocative is related to the generation and education level of the speaker. "Cool" people don't use it, but older, educated people usually do.


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## jasio

Drakonica said:


> - Panie  Andrzeju, chodź tu.


😮
"Panie Andrzeju, niech Pan tu przyjdzie" - jeśli już.


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