# Changing language.



## Alxmrphi

Giannaclaudia said:
			
		

> No, it isn't common, but it happens because the language is changing.



I would like peoples opinions (preferably in English) on what changes you've noticed in Italian, it sounds interesting .


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## fran06

Alex_Murphy said:
			
		

> I would like peoples opinions (preferably in English) on what changes you've noticed in Italian, it sounds interesting .


 
Unfortunately a very common change (even if I'm not sure if this is what you want to know) is the use of the subjunctive.

_Credo che sia_ more and more often is becoming _Credo che è_ even if it's grammatically WRONG.


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## Manuel_M

Alex_Murphy said:
			
		

> I would like peoples opinions (preferably in English) on what changes you've noticed in Italian, it sounds interesting .


 
Over the years I've noticed the ever-increasing influence of English, both directly and in tne choice of Italian words which are similar to the English ones ( e.g. a few days ago we were discussing the use of *proattivo*, a clear example of the influence of an English similar term)


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## fran06

Manuel_M said:
			
		

> Over the years I've noticed the ever-increasing influence of English, both directly and in tne choice of Italian words which are similar to the English ones ( e.g. a few days ago we were discussing the use of *proattivo*, a clear example of the influence of an English similar term)


 
I agree, yesterday I heard speaking adout _premierato _on TV_,_ as they want to change our _primo ministro_ in _premier_ his activity would be called _premierato!_


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## Alxmrphi

Do you think the English language is oppresive, and why do you see the subjunctive changing to the present indicative? What for?


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## Manuel_M

Alex_Murphy said:
			
		

> Do you think the English language is oppresive, and why do you see the subjunctive changing to the present indicative? What for?


 
The reasons are cultural. The language of globalisation is English.

As regrds the congiuntivo, language use changes. People tend to opt for more informal ways of interacting, and that is reflected in the language used.


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## cecil

As regrds the congiuntivo, language use changes. People tend to opt for more informal ways of interacting, and that is reflected in the language used.[/quote]

You have just made my next attempt at communication in Italian easier, however less eloquent. The subjunctive is also being ignored in English (American) to the point that it is beginning to sound incorrect.

cecil


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## combustion

Baolian and I... we think that people are becoming really ignorant...
I think that the problem is the lack of reading, or some lack in the school system... or also the TV system...
Now we have less illiterates but more more ignorants!
Comb&Baolian


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## mimitabby

people say "essa" and "egli" less.
When my mother speaks Italian (which she learned in the 1940's) Italians crack up because it is so oldfashioned.


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## Scopa Nuova

I have noticed the decline of the use of correct grammar in conversational American English here in the US over the past 20-30 years, not only in the subjunctive but in basic sentence structure. Younger Americans frequently mix up the objective case and subjective case pronouns. For example:

*Me* and my friends are going to the store.
for My friends and *I*...........

*Me* and *her* are going away
for *She* and *I* are going away

I think the educational system here is partly to blame. They don't stress basic gramatical structure. They use to require the students to break down a sentence into basic parts like subject, verb, object, prepositions, etc. and identify all the parts. I don't think they do that much anymore in the US. 

I would be interested to hear if other countries stress the basics.

*Scopa Nuova  *


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## cecil

combustion said:
			
		

> Baolian and I... we think that people are becoming really ignorant...
> I think that the problem is the lack of reading, or some lack in the school system... or also the TV system...
> Now we have less illiterates but more more ignorants!
> Comb&Baolian


 
Oh, have you and Scopa Nuova opened a can of worms. I worked in US schools quite a few years and saw the pressure on teachers from administrators to reduce the level of instruction year by year. Bush's "No child left behind" became "If no child gets ahead, no child is left behind." I'm probably breaking the forum's rules by my response.  Sorry, if so.

cecil


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## Alxmrphi

A few points raised here I would like to know more about..

a) Is the subjunctive considered formal? someone said not being used because people want more "informal" ways of speaking?

b) I don't think any school in the UK tests kids on recognising verbs/prepositions/subject pronouns, well, more than one lesson.

I don't think anyone who hasn't even attempted to learn another language in England, knows what a subject pronoun or a direct object pronoun or a preposition is!?!

Why, in Italian, is the subjunctive formal? (re-iterating previous question), why would the present tense be 'more' informal?


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## fran06

Alex_Murphy said:
			
		

> a) Is the subjunctive considered formal? someone said not being used because people want more "informal" ways of speaking?
> 
> Why, in Italian, is the subjunctive formal? (re-iterating previous question), why would the present tense be 'more' informal?


 
To be honest Alex, I really don't think that people want to be informal not using the subjunctive. I think it is just because they don't know how to use it and to be honest (again) I bet that no even Italians know what a noun is if they don't study another language!

I asked the direction to a girl in Naples once and she answered me (in Italian obviously...or at least I thought so) and her friend came over and told her "wao, you can speak Italian, I didn't know that?!" and I assure you...he was not kidding, he was honestly surprised that his friend could speak Italian...I was shocked!


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## Scopa Nuova

In the US it is some of each; a lot of people don't know when to use the subjunctive and rarely use it if at all. Some people don't use the subjunctive in conversation but if their job requires formal writing, like manuals, business letters or newspapers they usually, but not always, use the subjunctive and other grammatical form correctly. In e-mail it's terrible, all sorts of spelling and grammatical errors.

Scopa Nuova


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## robbotiku

Well, hard discussion! I believe that a lot of experts in laguage would fall in such a matter! Anyway: the use of the subjunctive is not a formal construction, it's a correct use of the syntax. Usually, subjunctive is the verbal "modo" to express an unsure statement. If I say "vedo che piove", I use the indicative, because it actually rains, while when I say "temo che piova", the sentence is an hypothesis. I hope the example is clear.
Then, it is not a problem of ignorance, because lots of writers use this kind of construction (even Manzoni!), but of semplification of the language. There is a linguistic law, called the Principle of economy, that leads all the speakers to use the minor number of words in a sentence or the simplest syntax structure to express the meaning. But the problem is this: your awareness in the use of a language. I mean, you can make a mistake spontaneously or unintentionally as a thinking subject, but in each case the language will be lead to a transformation. 
Finally, about changes in the language. Once, in Italy, it was an heresy to say "A me mi piace" (= I like it), while now it is almost accepted. Language evolves (we cannot say whether it is a worsening or an improvement), like animated beings it borns, grows up and dies, and the natural evolution influences it. Otherwise, maybe I would be a speaking latin dinosaur... and the question is: am I better than it?
See you


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## Scopa Nuova

robbotiku said:
			
		

> Well, hard discussion! I believe that a lot of experts in laguage would fall in such a matter! Anyway: the use of the subjunctive is not a formal construction, it's a correct use of the syntax. Usually, subjunctive is the verbal "modo" to express an unsure statement. If I say "vedo che piove", I use the indicative, because it actually rains, while when I say "temo che piova", the sentence is an hypothesis. I hope the example is clear. ..............


 
Good point robbotiku. I neglected to say that.

Your point that some people unintentionally make such grammatical errors just because they don't have a good speaking ability probably affects evolution of a language and that's unfortunate. Incorrect use of words and grammatical structure can easily result in misunderstanding and a breakdown in communication, which is the primary purpose of any language.

Scopa Nuova


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## Alxmrphi

Robbotiku, you're English is fantastic! Just this ..


> s*i*mplification



Why was it heresy to say "a me mi piace" ?
Am I right to understand Italians aswel as English are getting worse and worse every day with their language?


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## mimitabby

AMericans like myself learning to speak italian fear that if we USE the subjunctive that people (our friends and family) in Italy will believe that
we are trying to act sophisticated if we do use the subjunctive, particularly
among folks that are not highly educated.
Fran, I love your example, that's what I am talking about. I have relatives that hardly know Italian, they speak dialect.


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## robbotiku

Yes, Scopa Nuova. But sometimes people can't comunicate even if in a sentence there are no mistakes, and not always errors prevent from understanding. Evolution (or involution, it's a philosophical problem!) in languages is not a problem of what is right or wrong, in my mind, but of modern or obsolete. As in every field of the progress, the solution is looked for semplification, for example, the remote control permits to change tune from your sofa, but you  don't care about the system you are using... and the same is for language. Humans are getting lazier and lazier because of comforts... am I boring you? Sorry!


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## fran06

mimitabby said:
			
		

> AMericans like myself learning to speak italian fear that if we USE the subjunctive that people (our friends and family) in Italy will believe that we are trying to act sophisticated if we do use the subjunctive, particularly among folks that are not highly educated.
> Fran, I love your example, that's what I am talking about. I have relatives that hardly know Italian, they speak dialect.


 
Rather than *sounding* Italian I would rather *speak* Italian! 
Don't worry about them Mimi, use the subjunctive and even correct Italians when they make mistakes, that will teach them!
I don't think it's right to support this wrong tendency to ruin our beautiful lenguage.
And I hate when people say _A me mi _rather than _Mi_ 
Anyway dialects are part of our culture and they are as important as the Italian language is so ...it's is important to keep them alive!


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## mimitabby

fran06 said:
			
		

> Rather than *sounding* Italian I would rather *speak* Italian!
> Don't worry about them Mimi, use the subjunctive and even correct Italians when they make mistakes, that will teach them!
> I don't think it's right to support this wrong tendency to ruin our beautiful lenguage.
> And I hate when people say _A me mi _rather than _Mi_
> Anyway dialects are part of our culture and they are as important as the Italian language is so ...it's is important to keep them alive!


Non preoccuparti, I always encourage people to use their dialect, and to teach it to their children; just please speak Italian to me!


Thank you
(I think you made a typo; language)


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## fran06

mimitabby said:
			
		

> Non preoccuparti, I always encourage people to use their dialect, and to teach it to their children; just please speak Italian to me!
> 
> 
> Thank you
> (I think you made a typo; language)


 
Lo farò!
Scusate per il typo...


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## robbotiku

Thank you Alex! Simplification, simplification, simplification, I must remember! Well, an heresy in the sense that the majority of people know that that's a mistake but persist in saying that... Only literary men abhor when hear something like that, like a priest that hears a blasphemy. Lots of mistakes are present in spoken italian, and that is why a foreign person is afraid, when he uses a subjuntive, that he looks like a weirdo! So go on, try to learn a language as correct as possible, considering that it's difficult but daring to use the most sophisticated syntax and vocabulary. I know that I'll never be as proficient as an english mothertongue, of course, but I will keep on learning till the end of my days! Of course, we must never forget the person we are talking to and use a suitable language, because we have to be polite even in grammar, and we must never forget the leading goal of a language: comunicate, not astonish with our skills!
Bye


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## robbotiku

Scusate, sono uscito fuori dal seminato?


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## fran06

robbotiku said:
			
		

> I know that I'll never be as proficient as an english mothertongue, of course, but I will keep on learning till the end of my days!
> Of course, we must never forget the person we are talking to and use a suitable language, because we have to be polite even in grammar,
> 
> and we must never forget the leading goal of a language: comunicate, not astonish with our skills!
> Bye


 
I agree (first bit) and I don't (second bit). It's true that the goal is comunicating but not at any cost otherwise we may just use our hands ( as Italians often do when they don't speak a language) to be understood. I think that respecting a language shows our respect for the people who speak it and for the language itself. Otherwise we wouldn't keep on learning till the end of our days


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## nickditoro

robbotiku said:
			
		

> Well, hard discussion! I believe that a lot of experts in laguage would fall in such a matter! Anyway: the use of the subjunctive is not a formal construction, it's a correct use of the syntax. Usually, subjunctive is the verbal "modo" to express an unsure statement. If I say "vedo che piove", I use the indicative, because it actually rains, while when I say "temo che piova", the sentence is an hypothesis. I hope the example is clear.
> Then, it is not a problem of ignorance, because lots of writers use this kind of construction (even Manzoni!), but of semplification of the language. There is a linguistic law, called the Principle of economy, that leads all the speakers to use the minor number of words in a sentence or the simplest syntax structure to express the meaning. But the problem is this: your awareness in the use of a language. I mean, you can make a mistake spontaneously or unintentionally as a thinking subject, but in each case the language will be lead to a transformation.
> Finally, about changes in the language. Once, in Italy, it was an heresy to say "A me mi piace" (= I like it), while now it is almost accepted. Language evolves (we cannot say whether it is a worsening or an improvement), like animated beings it borns, grows up and dies, and the natural evolution influences it. Otherwise, maybe I would be a speaking latin dinosaur... and the question is: am I better than it?
> See you


Bravo, robbotiku. Thank you for a wonderful summary of the heart of the matter about the evolution of language. Are we better than our forefathers indeed? I can't imagine what the Elizabethans would think of modern "grammatically correct" English! 

Nick


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## robbotiku

Sorry, Fran, maybe I haven't been clear.. I meant to say that we must have respect for people using a language fit for their culture, and comunicate a message, not an intellectual preemince. And I agree when you say that "respecting a language shows our respect for the people who speak it and for the language itself", but when I encourage my pupils to speak and they are afraid to make mistakes, I say them that when you're learning a language, you must speak. No matter if you are wrong, as we say in italy, "Making mistakes, we learn". Otherwise, what drives us to learn a language, if the goal isn't comunicate?


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## robbotiku

Thanks, nick!


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## fran06

robbotiku said:
			
		

> Sorry, Fran, maybe I haven't been clear.. I meant to say that we must have respect for people using a language fit for their culture, and comunicate a message, not an intellectual preemince.


 
Tutto chiaro ora!
My fault, sbagliando si impara


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## nickditoro

Scopa Nuova said:
			
		

> In the US it is some of each; a lot of people don't know when to use the subjunctive and rarely use it if at all. Some people don't use the subjunctive in conversation but if their job requires formal writing, like manuals, business letters or newspapers they usually, but not always, use the subjunctive and other grammatical form correctly. In e-mail it's terrible, all sorts of spelling and grammatical errors.
> 
> Scopa Nuova


I have noticed that in my company, which is a LARGE electronics retailer, formal written communications (including emails) from the executive suite are done with great care; I rarely if ever find errors of any sort (except for content, which is another matter altogether), which leads me to believe that this communication is important enough to warrant paying extra sets of eyes to ensure its quality. As written communications orginate from successively lower levels of management, where presumably the authors do their own proofing, certain niceties of grammar and style fall by the wayside. Finally, at my level, speed trumps all. It's either get the email out now or lose the momentum of whatever it is I need to weigh in on. (How about a dangling preposition?  )

Nick


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## lsp

robbotiku said:
			
		

> Sorry, Fran, maybe I haven't been clear.. I meant to say that we must have respect for people using a language fit for their culture, and comunicate a message, not an intellectual preemince. And I agree when you say that "respecting a language shows our respect for the people who speak it and for the language itself", but when I encourage my pupils to speak and they are afraid to make mistakes, I say them that when you're learning a language, you must speak. No matter if you are wrong, as we say in italy, "Making mistakes, we learn". Otherwise, what drives us to learn a language, if the goal isn't comunicate?


I'm all for change, for language evolving, for "_communication_ first." Having said that, I think the rules of language serve to give us the structure to make sure what we transmit is what will be received (for the most part). In a total linguistic free-for-all, even speakers of the same language would be just as lost as people who don't have a language in common.


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## robbotiku

Right, Isp. Soccer is ruled by rules, but Maradona is different from Crespo, even if they respect the same rules!


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## Alxmrphi

I think it is true that most foreigners, after quite a bit of time, become much better at English than people who only speak English, If I could guarantee that, I would.

I thought you (Italians) were all for a unified national language anyway? hmm


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## Gianni2

...
Now we have less illiterates but more more ignorants!
Comb&Baolian

Your use of 'less illiterates' is an example of change in English.  Ideally, if something is countable one should say 'fewer illiterates'.  Less is  ideally used for things that are not countable, such as less importance,  less courage, etc.

How about 'ignoramuses' instead of 'ignorants'?


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## moodywop

Alex_Murphy said:
			
		

> I thought you (Italians) were all for a unified national language anyway? hmm


 
Alex

I think we do have a "unified national language" - or at least we're very close to it.

Actually that's the most significant development in the history of the Italian language. In the second half of the 20th century the number of people who only speak Italian or can speak both Italian and their local dialect has grown at a very fast pace, while the number of people who can only speak their dialect has dwindled. Here are some figures:

........................ (Italian *only*)...................(Dialect *only*)

1861........................2,5%.................. ................97,5%

1951........................18,5%................. ................63,5%

1982........................29,5%................. ................46,5%

1997.............................................. ....................6,0% 

(I don't know why there is no figure for Italian-only speakers for 1997. Anyway the number can only have increased since)

According to another survey fifteen years ago 62% of Italians could speak both Italian and their dialect. 

(Bonomi _et alii_, _Elementi di linguistica italiana_, 2005 Grassi _et alii_, _Fondamenti di dialettologia_, 1998)

For the Italians who are interested, there is a lot of interesting information on this University of Padova linguistics site, including statistics on the use of the subjunctive in spoken and written Italian. 

This is the opinion of one of the most distinguished Italian language scholars, Michele Cortelazzo:

_Già ora nelle nuove generazioni, italofone fin dalla nascita, risultano sempre più attenuati i tratti locali e appare sempre più riconoscibile un tipo unico di italiano_

(He's saying that regional language forms are disappearing among the younger generations and a single national standard is emerging)


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## nickditoro

moodywop said:
			
		

> Alex
> 
> I think we do have a "unified national language" - or at least we're very close to it.
> 
> Actually that's the most significant development in the history of the Italian language. In the second half of the 20th century the number of people who only speak Italian or can speak both Italian and their local dialect has grown at a very fast pace, while the number of people who can only speak their dialect has dwindled. Here are some figures:
> 
> ........................ (Italian *only*)...................(Dialect *only*)
> 
> 1861........................2,5%.................. ................97,5%
> 
> 1951........................18,5%................. ................63,5%
> 
> 1982........................29,5%................. ................46,5%
> 
> 1997.............................................. ....................6,0%
> 
> (I don't know why there is no figure for Italian-only speakers for 1997. Anyway the number can only have increased since)
> 
> According to another survey fifteen years ago 62% of Italians could speak both Italian and their dialect.
> 
> (Bonomi _et alii_, _Elementi di linguistica italiana_, 2005 Grassi _et alii_, _Fondamenti di dialettologia_, 1998)
> 
> For the Italians who are interested, there is a lot of interesting information on this University of Padova linguistics site, including statistics on the use of the subjunctive in spoken and written Italian.
> 
> This is the opinion of one of the most distinguished Italian language scholars, Michele Cortelazzo:
> 
> _Già ora nelle nuove generazioni, italofone fin dalla nascita, risultano sempre più attenuati i tratti locali e appare sempre più riconoscibile un tipo unico di italiano_
> 
> (He's saying that regional language forms are disappearing among the younger generations and a single national standard is emerging)


This is a fascinating set of statistics, Carlo. By way of anecdote, when I was in high school in the 1960's, my Latin teacher, who was an Italian in his 40's, said that when he was in school, teachers required that students leave their dialects at the door. Some 25 years later, when my father and I were visiting relatives in his hometown (Agnone [IS]), family members said that the region had instituted programs to teach and encourage the use of the local dialects, since they feared for their demise. This was presumably due to the influences of the wider Italian culture to which the young had been increasingly exposed.

Nick

EDIT: Typo


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## Scopa Nuova

Well, this certainly has not been a boring discussion (robbotiku). A lot of excellent points have been made. Following the rules doesn't seem to be a priority today. I didn't know that this language issue was so universal.

It reminds me of a song from the Lerner and Loewe Musical "My Fair Lady" (adapted from George Bernard Shaw's "Pygmalion")

"Why can't the English teach their children how to speak?"

It appears as if you can equally well replace "English" with "Americans", "Italians", etc.

Thanks for the statistics on dialects and Standard Italian moodywop. It fits from what I know from my Italian immigrant grandparents who came to the US in the early 1900's.

Una discussione molte interesante

Scopa Nuova


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## cecil

>>In the US it is some of each; a lot of people don't know when to use the subjunctive and rarely use it if at all. Some people don't use the subjunctive in conversation but if their job requires formal writing, like manuals, business letters or newspapers they usually, but not always, use the subjunctive and other grammatical form correctly. In e-mail it's terrible, all sorts of spelling and grammatical errors.

What I find especially disturbing are the errors appearing in journalism, whether spoken or written. Not long ago there was a glaring mistake on the front page of the New York Times.  I was shocked. 

cecil


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## Scopa Nuova

cecil said:
			
		

> >>
> 
> What I find especially disturbing are the errors appearing in journalism, whether spoken or written. Not long ago there was a glaring mistake on the front page of the New York Times. I was shocked.
> 
> cecil


 
I have seen that too; even on TV captions. Have you ever watched the Jay Leno TV show when he shows Newspaper Headlines (Usually on Monday nights in the US. I think it is also available in Europe on Satellite)? Some of the errors are so bad they make you laugh.

This discussion is extremely interesting but I think we better focus on the Italian-English language issues before the Moderators turn us off.

*Proverbio*
_Chi ama il suo lavoro lo fa bene._

Scopa Nuova


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## Elisa68

My two cents.

This thread brought to mind a movie, _Pane e Tulipani_ (Bread and Tulips), where there is a waiter from Iceland, very fluent in Italian, who spoke in an unusual way (refined, mannered). At the beginning Rosalba, the leading actress, was looking at him with an amused look, but after a while she was fascinated by him because he was able to communicate with her as no other (Italian) person close to her had ever been.

Yes, Italian is changing and for communication's sake we should avoid obsolete words, but at the same time we should use proper and educated language, because as trivial as it seems, our language is our culture.

(Please, feel free to correct my mistakes.)


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## Scopa Nuova

Elisa68 said:
			
		

> My two cents.
> 
> 
> Yes, Italian is changing and for communication's sake we should avoid obsolete words, but at the same time we should use proper and educated language, because as trivial as it seems, our language is our culture.
> 
> *Amen*
> 
> (Please, feel free to correct my mistakes.)


 
Elsa68, your English is great. I can find no errors. Some people may word it a bit diferently but that's just style. I wish my Italian were (_there is that subjunctive_) even 20 % as good as your English.

As far as obsolete words, I guess you would want to avoid them in normal conversation. I'm glad that there are some people around who still know them because I run into "old fashion" Italian in Operas all the time. I appreciate the help from the Forum members in translating them. I would think that people who read old Italian literature (i.e. Dante and others) could use that help too. So I hope Italians don't just throw away the "obsolete".


Scopa Nuova


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## primo_cerchio

I hope you are aware of the potential of your proverb


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## Elisa68

Scopa Nuova said:
			
		

> As far as obsolete words, I guess you would want to avoid them in normal conversation.


I haven't specified "in normal conversation" since I thought it was clear from the thread.  
Thank you for pointing that out and for the compliment on my English.


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## Scopa Nuova

primo_cerchio said:
			
		

> I hope you are aware of the potential of your proverb


 

I'm not aware of the potential of the proverb. It came from an old Text book for learning Italian, "Present Day Italian" by Joseph Louis Russo, University of Wisconsin, copyright 1947 (Copyrights in the US expire in 17 years). I presumed he got it from Italian folklore.

Is there some hidden meaning here I should know. If it is something inappropriate, I apologize and will edit it out. Does it have anything to do with my member name?

Scopa Nuova


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## cecil

Scopa Nuova said:
			
		

> I have seen that too; even on TV captions. Have you ever watched the Jay Leno TV show when he shows Newspaper Headlines (Usually on Monday nights in the US. I think it is also available in Europe on Satellite)? Some of the errors are so bad they make you laugh.
> 
> This discussion is extremely interesting but I think we better focus on the Italian-English language issues before the Moderators turn us off.
> 
> *Proverbio*
> _Chi ama il suo lavoro lo fa bene._
> 
> 
> _Jay Leno? Sì, ignoranza terribile.
> 
> Discussione? Molto interessante. Peccato che non possiamo discutere sia la lingua italiana che le idee che ci interessano. Gli esperti potrebbero farci notare i nostri errori e così potremmo prendere due piccioni con una fava.
> _
> _cecil_
> 
> 
> 
> Scopa Nuova


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## Elisa68

Scopa Nuova said:
			
		

> I'm not aware of the potential of the proverb. It came from an old Text book for learning Italian, "Present Day Italian" by Joseph Louis Russo, University of Wisconsin, copyright 1947 (Copyrights in the US expire in 17 years). I presumed he got it from Italian folklore.
> 
> Is there some hidden meaning here I should know. If it is something inappropriate, I apologize and will edit it out.


No, there isn't: link.


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