# Etymology of 당신



## Dalian

Hi,

I'm curious to know how the word 당신 came into being...I'm aware that 당 means 'this' and 신 'body'. So does this word have a concrete lexical meaning before it grammaticalizes into a second-person pronoun?

Many thanks..

Dalian


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## kenjoluma

I'm not sure if I understood your question properly. You are asking about etymology of the word '당신', right?

There are many theories. Let me introduce two of them.

1.
당(當) can be roughly translated into 'this', as you already know, however it also can be 'current' or 'in here'. So it was meant something like 'Someone in here', which indicates 1st person, 'me'. 

Actually this was used by women calling someone (usually their husbands) who they cherish just like 'their bodies'. Later, it became widely used by wives when calling their husbands (until now) and slowly evolved to indicate 2nd person, as well.

2.
As you explained above, it can mean 'this body', therefore it third-personalizes a 2nd person. 

Just like many European languages, 3rd-personalization of 2nd person is considered 'polite' and 'appropriate'. (cf, 'usted' in Spanish, 'your majesty' in English, 'è coreano?' instead of 'sei coreano?' in Italian, etc.) It became popular later when addressing 2nd person who you are not sure how to address.


Young generation in Korea nowadays do not use 당신 that often. It seems like it is becoming somewhat 'poetic' or 'old-fashioned' to some extent. Sadly, this word became bastardized and sometimes used when addressing people during a quarrel, so, yeah, it sometimes sounds a bit offending, too.

I believe it is really hard and awkward to call someone whose name you don't know in Korean. That's why I hate my own first language sometimes.


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## Dalian

Thank you for your explanation, Kenjoluma...very enlightening. However I'm not really convinced by the 2nd theory. The polite 2nd-person forms in some European languages (like Spanish 'usted', Italian 'lei', German 'Sie', etc.) are normally used as 3rd-person pronouns, but 당신 is always 2nd-person, isn't it?

Since 당신 literally means 'someone in here', is it possible that it refers to the listener of a conversation (2nd person 'you') in the first place?


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## kenjoluma

What I was trying to say is, bringing the other word to indicate the second person is *gramatically* considered as third-person. Sie, Lei, Usted... all of them are 3rd person, don't you agree? (They are all subject to conjugation as third person, not as second person)

Since Korean language (including most of Asian languages) does not have any conjugation based on subject, it is not as clear as those languages, however, 'this body' should be 3rd person. 

... I mean, _grammatically_. Of course 당신 is second person. But grammatically and etymologically speaking, it is 3rd person. And it is fun to see most of culture regard indicating someone 'indirectly' as 'polite'. Instead of simply saying "you", there are always other ways to be more polite by choosing some alternative object, its character, social status, profession, etc (all of them, third-person). And it's not only in Korea.

(Well, in some culture, you pluralize, not 3rd-personalize, to make it more polite. But anyway...)

Oh! Wait! Speaking of which, you know what? 당신 actually can be third person, as well. (I'm not talking about grammar, this time) Old Korean people sometimes use 당신 as 'oneself'.

For example, 그 할아버지 참 건강하셔. 그 나이에 당신이 하고 싶은 대로 다 하고 사신다니까. Well something like that. Roughly translated: "That old man is so healthy. It is amazing that he does everything he wants to do, at that age!" Something like that. In this case, it really is (contextually) 3rd person. Well, just good to know...

Are we clear now?


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## Dalian

kenjoluma said:


> What I was trying to say is, bringing the other word to indicate the second person is *gramatically* considered as third-person. Sie, Lei, Usted... all of them are 3rd person, don't you agree? (They are all subject to conjugation as third person, not as second person)
> 
> Since Korean language (including most of Asian languages) does not have any conjugation based on subject, it is not as clear as those languages, however, 'this body' should be 3rd person.


 
Yeah, I see what you mean now...XD



kenjoluma said:


> Oh! Wait! Speaking of which, you know what? 당신 actually can be third person, as well. (I'm not talking about grammar, this time) Old Korean people sometimes use 당신 as 'oneself'.
> 
> For example, 그 할아버지 참 건강하셔. 그 나이에 당신이 하고 싶은 대로 다 하고 사신다니까. Well something like that. Roughly translated: "That old man is so healthy. It is amazing that he does everything he wants to do, at that age!" Something like that. In this case, it really is (contextually) 3rd person. Well, just good to know...


 Interesting to know...
Thanks again


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