# "prophecy" in Vatican, Angkor Wat



## john welch

This discussion of "vates" mentions Sanskrit. The Skt. vataka is a hermit's garden, pavilion or Hindu temple enclosure, as at Angkor Wat. The visual impact of the great buildings of Vatican and Angkor Wat is another similarity. Is it reasonable to link the 2 buildings by a common semantic?
*Talk:Vates - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:VatesCached
..that's *what* I mean. the *root* is likely *PIE*, or shortly-post-*PIE*. The word "vates " in the sense "seer, prophet etc." may still be a loan from Celtic, *...*


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## berndf

The current buildings on the Vatican Hill all date from the Christian era; construction of the building shaping the modern appearance of the hill only began in the 15th century; the name of the hill is much, much older and there is no indication it ever was a (major) place of worship in ancient times. So, where do you see the link? Even if the two words were derived from the same PIE root, there would be no reason to connect the modern architectural structures in these two places through there names.


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## aruniyan

John welch,

 it seems Tamil can give us the answer, the word  *"Venthan" / "Venthu" *which means* "King" or "Protector"* normally grouped in status with Gods(deivams). Literally "VEnthan"  is someone that protects(difficult to approach), There is also a popular holy  temple hill called "Venkadam".
"VE" literally  has "Comes+Inaccessible"

Some other words/objects thats protects or resists approach.
Spear - VEl
Wall -VEli 
Tree Roots - VEru


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## Flaminius

If the Wikipedia is correct, the origin of the word _wat_ is Pali _vatthu-ārāma_.  The first part is from Vedic _vāstu_ and means site, ground, field, plot.  The second word was originally a park but is monastery in this context.

Those two buildings, therefore, do not share a common PIE ancestor either.


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## mataripis

The word "Vates" with forms of "Venthan"(Tamil), "Wat" ( in Indochina peninsula  ,W=V in most ancient language) and in Tagalog it is "Bantay" meaning the Guard, the word "Bantayog" is old word for "Tower".If "WAT" came from Pali   "vattu arama" meaning site and park, it is possible that the site has existing tower or building.Then the word "Vatican" and "Wat" in Angkor Wat shared the same meanings of Protector/Guardian and Tower(from other asian words) that symbolize authority and power from divine/spiritual wisdom and knowledge.


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## john welch

berndf,
Etruscan "cardo" (cardinal) and Latin "pontifex maximus" are preserved and the concept of "vates" etc. would be significant to Romans even if the Latin's site had small buildings. The Delphic oracular site was small but significant and Vatika is a fertile region in S Greece.The architectural meaning of the Vatican resembles the cosmic dogma of Angkor Wat, built in 12 cent. after India developed trade with China from 2000 BP with Roman gold payments for imports.


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## john welch

Another comment is that "wat" is from Skt. Khmer vattaram meaning "temple".
Also : "The term Angkor has been explained as Nagara i.e. city in Sanskrit and the term Wat is a derivation from the Sanskrit term, Vata or Vataka, meaning a pavilion or a mandapa within an enclosure,. Angkor Wat, therefore, may mean 'pavilion within a city'. In this connection, we may like to cite an important expression 'Narayana Vataka' used in Ghosundi inscription (Distt. Chittor, Rajasthan), of about second century B.C. in the sense of a Vishnu temple with a vast enclosure.
Please note the the similarity between "Nagara Vataka" and "Narayana Vataka".


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## berndf

john welch said:


> Another comment is that "wat" is from Skt. Khmer vattaram meaning "temple".
> Also : "The term Angkor has been explained as Nagara i.e. city in Sanskrit and the term Wat is a derivation from the Sanskrit term, Vata or Vataka, meaning a pavilion or a mandapa within an enclosure,. Angkor Wat, therefore, may mean 'pavilion within a city'. In this connection, we may like to cite an important expression 'Narayana Vataka' used in Ghosundi inscription (Distt. Chittor, Rajasthan), of about second century B.C. in the sense of a Vishnu temple with a vast enclosure.
> Please note the the similarity between "Nagara Vataka" and "Narayana Vataka".


1. Latin _cardio _might be cognate to Etruscan _cardo_, yet cardinal is not a "preservation" of the concept from Etrustcan mythology but simply means _principal, chief_.
2. Whatever the place (the Vatican Hill) might have meant to the Etruscans spiritually. AFAIK it had no such meaning to the Romans. The significance the place had and has for the Roman church is certainly not a "preservation" of any Etruscan meaning.


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## john welch

The principal, chief is important, fundamental (OED).


http://www.catholiceducation.org/template/images/article_topmenu_right.gif[/IMG]








When girls ruin girl


Suffering


​



Search​ 


*PETER KREEFT* *These four cardinal virtues are not the only virtues, but they are the cardes, the "hinges", on which all the other virtues turn.*

These four are called "cardinal" virtues from the Latin word for "hinge".
--------------------------------
The Etruscan priests made the north-south cardo sign with the east-west across it to inaugurate the site of a new temple. This priestly cross-sign is notionally like a hinge, of fundamental importance. Angkor Wat is obsessively aligned to the cardinal lines with cross alignments within squares and along extended pathways.


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## john welch

sorry about the format of #9, the internet is being creative.
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"The Vatican State derives its name from an ancient Etruscan god by the name of _Vaticanus _or Vatikanos. Vaticanus was a god of prophecy for the Etruscans, and his temple was built on the ancient site of _Vaticanum_ (Vatican Hill), in the area in which St. Peter’s Basilica is situated. The holy priests (“prophets” or “seers”) who worshipped Vaticanus werecalled _vates_. A legend states the voice of the vates motivated the ancient Romans to do battle with the Etruscans and conquer the right bank of the _Tiberis_ (Tiber) River."
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wikipedia Vagitanus.These "divine functionaries" (German _Sondergötter_) whose names express their sphere of influence are considered characteristic of Indo-European religions.[6] The name _Vaticanus_ in connection to _vagitus_ is discussed by Aulus Gellius and Augustine of Hippo. Gellius quotes Varro, who is generally acknowledged also as Augustine's main source on ancient Roman theology:[7]We have been told that the word _Vatican_ is applied to the hill, and the deity who presides over it, from the _vaticinia_, or prophecies, which took place there by the power and inspiration of the god; but Marcus Varro, in his book on _Divine Things_, gives another reason for this name. "As Aius," says he, "was called a deity, and an altar was built to his honour in the lowest part of the new road, because in that place a voice from heaven was heard, so this deity was called _Vaticanus_, because he presided over the principles of the human voice; for infants, as soon as they are born, make the sound which forms the first syllable in _Vaticanus_, and are therefore said _vagire_ (to cry) which word expresses the noise which an infant first makes.
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The root here is said to be *wa "to wail, breathe" , which to myself appears similar to *wut "to call out, foretell". This has elements of cardo at "new-born" temples, and of "fundamental, cardinal".​


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## berndf

I am not sure what you're trying to do here, but this forum discusses etymology and not mysticism. What exactly is you etymology question?


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## john welch

#1.
"Is it reasonable to link the 2 buildings by a common semantic?"


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## Flaminius

I am not sure what a common semantic means but the two words are certainly not related.

Vatican is from Latin _vates_ (ultimately < PIE *_wāt-_).  The same root engenders Sanskrit अपिवत् (_apivat_; to understand), where the root _vat_ seems to be taking a preverb of emphasis.

_Wat_ in several South East languages can be ultimately traced back to Vedic _vāstu_.  This is considered to be from PIE *_wastu-_.

If you cannot get the same etymon even by going as far back as PIE, then the words are definitely not related.

*
john welch*, you have mentioned (#7 _supra_):"[W]at" is from Skt. Khmer vattaram meaning "temple".​This seems to be a secondary stage before _vatthu-ārāma_ becomes _wat_.

Another of your point was:Wat is a derivation from the Sanskrit term, Vata or Vataka​Yes, there are such words in Sanskrit as _vāṭa_ (enclosure) and _vāṭaka_ (enclosure, garden, plantation).  I am not sure which of the two opinions is the correct etymology of _wat_, but it does not matter much for your question.  They do not trace back to the same root as that of Latin _vates_.  Period.


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## berndf

john welch said:


> #1.
> "Is it reasonable to link the 2 buildings by a common semantic?"


Ok. Concerning Vatican City (i.e. the building*s*, the Basilica, the palaces, offices, chapels and parks, the location of the Holy See):
- The Vatican City is build around St Peter's Basilica when the Holy See returned to Rome form Avignon. The basilica we know today replaced was build in the 16th and 17th century an replaced an older basilica constructed in the 4th century.
- The complex is named Vatican because it is located on Vatican Hill. There is no other semantics. The significance of the place in Christian tradition arises from the facts that St. Peter's tomb is believed to be located underneath the basilica.
- The place name has its own history but this is a different story and I can't see any semantic relation with the Basilica or other Papal buildings located in the vicinity.


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## john welch

Flaminius,
 The modern Thai. Cambodian verb /wat/ means "to measure" and noun /wat/ is  "precinct, image of Buddha". 
If "wat" is from Skt root vas3>vastu "to dwell", it seems at odds with  PIE *wa:stos, related to *eu "to lack, empty" L. vastus "vast, empty, immense". (Pokorny). 
PIE *wat , Skt apivat "to understand" seems closer to Cambodian usage than *was:stos, vastu. The semantics of "dwelling" would not reasonably be specific to monks.


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## john welch

The *Pyrgi Tablets*, found in a 1964 excavation of a sanctuary of ancient Pyrgi on the Tyrrhenian coast of Italy (today the town of Santa Severa), are three golden leaves that record a dedication made around 500 BC by Thefarie Velianas, king of Caere, to the Phoenician goddess ʻAshtaret. Pyrgi was the port of the southern Etruscan town of Caere. Two of the tablets are inscribed in the Etruscan language, the third in Phoenician.
*Etruscan text *First plate: 
*Ita tmia icac heramašva vatieχe Unial-Astres, θemiasa meχ θuta.*
That temple and these Hermes idols are dedicated to Uni-Astre, built by the clanspeople.
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berndf,
The idol sanctuary /vatieke/ seems similar in semantics to "enclosure, garden, plantation" of Skt /vataka/, "to understand" /apivat/ < *wat, and to "measure" "precinct, image of Buddha" of /wat/.The location "Vatican Hill" in Roman terms is different from naming its main building "The Vatican". The Catholic central domain would reasonably have many other names before choosing this one, particularly when emphasising Peter and the popes.The sanctuary of Hermes as a vatican may be consistent with the sanctuary (in various ways) of The Vatican.​


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## berndf

john welch said:


> The Catholic central domain would reasonably have many other names before choosing this one, particularly when emphasising Peter and the popes.​


The church hasn't chosen the name, it had always been the name of the place. The next question now is why the Vatican Hill was chosen to be the site of an important basilica. The basilica was built where the tomb of St. Peter was (and still is) suspected. The origin of the name of the place plays no obvious role.


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## john welch

Would you feel that "The Geneva" was a standard form for a city if it was named from the lake? For example, "The" Ukraine is false terminology. The first Church basilica was next to the Circus, so "The Circus" could arguably have been used instead.  And both words were nouns as in an institution (rather than vatican being an abstract adjective).But to return to etymology: if we drop back to Etruscans, would their "vatieke" link with Skt "vataka"?


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## berndf

john welch said:


> For example, "The" Ukraine is false terminology.


In some languages, among them Italian, _*the* Ukraine_ is correct. In German we say _*Die* Ukraine_ and Italians say _*L*'Ucraina_.





john welch said:


> The first Church basilica was next to Nero's Circus, so "The Circus" would also be consistent with locality.


The original location of the Holy See and the apostolic basilica is called _Laterano _after the family who owned the neighbourhood before the 4th century.


john welch said:


> But to return to etymology: if we drop back to Etruscans, would their "vatieke" link with Skt "vataka"?


Quite possible but I can't really say.


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## Flaminius

john welch said:


> If "wat" is from Skt root vas3>vastu "to  dwell", it seems at odds with  PIE *wa:stos, related to *eu "to lack,  empty" L. vastus "vast, empty, immense". (Pokorny).


Why do you think _wat_ as derived from Vedic _vāstu_ is "at odds with PIE *wa:stos"?  For that matter, how is _*wāsto-_ (which I believe you meant by "*wa:stos") worthy of our attention if you have another etymology of _wat_ in mind?




> PIE *wat , Skt apivat "to understand" seems closer to Cambodian usage than *was:stos, vastu.


Cambodian usage of what?  If you disagree with the etymology of _wat_  that I have found, then you must first present another accepted  etymology of the Cambodian word.  Only then can we proceed to discuss  what words in other languages can be related to it via common PIE  ancestral root.  I would be delighted to read how Sanskrit _vāṭa_ or _vāṭaka_ is the etymology of _wat_, but they cannot be cognates of Latin _vates_.




> The semantics of "dwelling" would not reasonably be specific to monks.


What do you mean by semantics?  and who said _wat_ means "dwelling"?  At least I did not say so.  If it is the real etymology, Pali _vatthu-ārāma_ probably meant premises of a monastery or temple.


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## aruniyan

John Welch,

The "Wat" (Buddhist temple and  Cambodian verb /wat/ means "to measure")  can be related to Tamil "*Vati(Foot /comes under it)*"? 
foot as unit for measurement and footprint or footsteps considered sacred and part of Buddhist worship.
do you see any connection?

another *"vathi" is "way" or  "having in, the way"* can we link this with Vates/pro-phets ?


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## john welch

Originally Posted by *Flaminius* 

 
Why do you think _wat_ as derived from Vedic _vāstu_ is "at odds with PIE *wa:stos"? For that matter, how is _*wāsto-_ (which I believe you meant by "*wa:stos") worthy of our attention if you have another etymology of _wat_ in mind?
----
Wat as "temple" < vas "to dwell" seems at odds with *wasto- "to lack, empty".



Cambodian usage of what? If you disagree with the etymology of _wat_ that I have found, then you must first present another accepted etymology of the Cambodian word. Only then can we proceed to discuss what words in other languages can be related to it via common PIE ancestral root. I would be delighted to read how Sanskrit _vāṭa_ or _vāṭaka_ is the etymology of _wat_, but they cannot be cognates of Latin _vastes_.
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Cambodian usage of /wat/ "to measure" seems semantically more like apavati "to understand" <PIE*wat , than like
vastu "to dwell". WD Whitney "Sanskrit Grammar" has Skt./ vas1 "clothe" 2 "shine" 3 "dwell". That seems to exclude both vastu and the unrelated *wasto.
If /v/ in vastu is acceptable as /w/ (wat), then apaVat and Vataka may become /wat/. The affixes "apa"vat and vat"aka" seem to extend *wat "to breathe, call out" into the sense of the temple sanctuary, both for Etruscans and Cambodians.


If it is the real etymology, Pali _vatthu-ārāma_ probably meant premises of a monastery or temple.
------



Urdu ahrama means "pyramid" which supports your comment.​


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## Flaminius

john welch said:


> Wat as "temple" < vas "to dwell" seems at odds with *wasto- "to lack, empty".


I asked why you believe as quoted above.



> Cambodian  usage of /wat/ "to measure" seems semantically more like apavati "to  understand" <PIE*wat , than like vastu "to dwell".


You seem to be linking Cambodian word _wat_ "to measure" with PIE _*wāt-_ from which Sanskrit _api-vátati_ and Latin _vates_ are derived.  Please explain why you believe so. Ah, before taking the effort, please tell us how _wat_ "to measure" engendered _wat_  "a temple" and no the other way around, or how they are not just  unrelated homonyms.  Even before that, please check if Cambodian has  such word as _wat_ "to measure".  "Semantically more like" does  not mean the two words in question are from the same root in the  ancestral language.




> WD Whitney "Sanskrit Grammar" has  Skt./ vas1 "clothe" 2 "shine" 3 "dwell". That seems to exclude both  vastu and the unrelated *wasto.


I don't have a copy of Whitney's _Sanskrit Grammar_  nor have you been kind enough to provide a link to an Internet material  to source your own quote.  Still, let's grant for the sake of  discussion that there are three Sanskrit roots √vas meaning "clothe,"  "shine" and "dwell".  How does it exclude the possibility that Cambodian  _wat_ ("temple") is from Vedic _vāstu_?




> If /v/ in vastu is acceptable as /w/ (wat), then apaVat and Vataka may  become /wat/. The affixes "apa"vat and vat"aka" seem to extend *wat "to  breathe, call out" into the sense of the temple sanctuary, both for  Etruscans and Cambodians.


For the Cambodian side, it is theoretically possible (or more pedantically, one cannot prove downright impossible) that Sanskrit _apivat_ or _vāṭaka_ is the origin of _wat_.  Then, however, how are _vat_ and _vāṭ_ related to `*wat "to  breathe, call out"'?  For that matter, where do you find this "*wat"?  You have marked the word with a star (*), which means the word is a reconstructed form.  Is it PIE?  Unfortunately, I cannot locate it in the database I have been quoting from in this thread.  By the way, by proposing Sanskrit _apivat_ or _vāṭaka_ as the origin of _wat_, you are disagreeing with the Pali origin of _wat_, _vatthu-ārāma_.  If you are doing what I assume you are doing, please suggest another etymology and support it with reasonable amount of standard findings in historical linguistics.

For the Etruscan side, please prove that whatever word you think is the origin of Latin _vates_ is of Indo-European origin and please show us which PIE root it goes back to.  These (and only these) are rhetorical questions.  Etruscan is yet to be related to any language that we have records of.




			
				john welch said:
			
		

> Urdu ahrama means "pyramid" which supports your comment [_wat_ < _vatthu-ārāma_].


The bracketed comment is mine.



aruniyan said:


> The "Wat" (Buddhist temple and  Cambodian verb /wat/ means "to measure")  can be related to Tamil "*Vati(Foot /comes under it)*"?
> (. . . . . .)
> another *"vathi" is "way" or  "having in, the way"* can we link this with Vates/pro-phets ?


Why do we have to consider Arabic (the Urdu word is loaned from Arabic) and Tamil while discussing a possible connection via a common PIE ancestor?


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## aruniyan

> Why do we have to consider Arabic (the Urdu word is loaned from Arabic)  and Tamil while discussing a possible connection via a common PIE  ancestor?



You are right, 

  I have something to say regrading "Va" and "Vaa", these  has this little difference in Indian languages, with  the shorter sound "a" represents that which is known, visible/present/known etc and  the longer sound "aa" is that which is unknown/hidden/invisible/past.

so "Wat"  _from __vatthu-ārāma -> we can see similar words in
Sanskrit - Vaastu,Vaasi(Living, dwelling often an enclosure),
_Sanskirt-Vasi,vasthu(dwell,object, place of, present,existing)_,
_Tamil- *Vaal*ntha(*Live*),
 Tamil-*Valarntha*(*Dwell*,grown,exist)

there is a place called "Kapilavasthu".


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## sotos

aruniyan said:


> The "Wat" (Buddhist temple and Cambodian verb /wat/ means "to measure") can be related to Tamil "*Vati(Foot /comes under it)*"?
> foot as unit for measurement and footprint or footsteps considered sacred and part of Buddhist worship.
> another *"vathi" is "way" or "having in, the way"* can we link this with Vates/pro-phets ?


This make sense in Greek (and possibly in Etruscan) as "vath-" or "vat-" (Gr. βαδ-, βατ-) are roots that mean "walk, step, stage, base". Notice the Gr. vathron (βάθρον) as stage, pedestal, an elevated place, with ceremonial and religious meaning. L-S: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*b%3Aentry+group%3D2%3Aentry%3Dba%2Fqron  . 1st.
The top of hills in ancient cities are almost certainly places of worship, and old christian churches are the tell-tale of an ancient temple under the foundations.


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## john welch

The circles seem to be getting more convoluted. On reflection, the Etruscans with Greek-Phoenician influence, may have derived "vatieke", as Cambodians derived "vataka.wat", from PIE *wasto. Latin "vates" is from PIE*wat. However, vates>vaticanus is not an obvious shift . Brahmi script for Devanegari Skt. was 'promoted' in Phoenicia (or some other verb may be accurate). I'm speculating that there was a link between West-Asian Vedic brahmins and Etruscan priests in some form, and "vatieke" influenced "vates" in Roman speech. Or maybe, that "vates" is not the source of "vatican", but was used as a parallel theme. This thread has suggested lines for inquiry.Alexander, in his book On the Pythagorean Symbols, relates that .., Pythagoras was a hearer of the Galatæ and the Brahmins​


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## aruniyan

I find the name Vaticanum, Vagitanus sounds similar to "VEnkadam" the name for Thirupati temple the richest temple of the world .

May  be the Romans bought it here or took that from here? see the  similarities of the seven hills of Rome and the seven hills in  ThiruPati. Its believed to be older and some claim this to be originally  a Buddhist temple.
"*VEnkada*"  means 
VEn+Kada , "harsh/difficult to cross" may be referring the terrain or hilly area. 
VEndi+Kada "For *Want*/need, To cross" referring the pilgrimage made for gain.

can this be close?  *Vati*=Want(Deficiency) and  Can=Gain or Cross


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## Flaminius

sotos said:


> This make sense in Greek (and possibly in  Etruscan) as "vath-" or "vat-" (Gr. βαδ-, βατ-) are roots that mean  "walk, step, stage, base".


Modern Greek /v/ was /b/ in Classical and older Greeks.  PIE *w had largely been lost by the time of Classical Greek.  Yet, we do know that PIE *w did exist in Greek from sporadic occurrences of digamma and documents in Linear B.  Anax, for example, was recorded as wa-na-ka in Linear B and reconstructed as *_wanax_.  This word was one of the breakthroughs with which John Chadwick proved that the language of Linear B is a very old form of Greek, Mycenaean Greek.  By the way, in one of the links I have provided here, we have already seen another instance of a Greek word that lost the initial _w_ when the language inherited it from PIE.  So, in conclusion, Greek words with initial <β> are not related to Cambodian _wat_.



aruniyan said:


> there is a place called "Kapilavasthu".


Yes.  Kapilavasthu or the city of Kapila (a _risi_) is the birthplace of Gautama Siddhartha or Buddha.  There is a Greek cognate for _vāsthu_ as I suggested above.  It is, not surprisingly, _asthu_.




john welch said:


> The circles seem to be getting more convoluted. On reflection, the Etruscans with Greek-Phoenician influence, may have derived "vatieke", as Cambodians derived "vataka.wat", from PIE *wasto


Not at all.  You can get out of the circles if you just stop to answer my previous questions.  The above portion has two weak arguments.  First, if you consider Etruscan _vatieke_ as the origin of Latin _vates_, then you cannot argue that _vates_ is from PIE _*wāt-_ like you did just below (or any other PIE root because Etruscan is not an Indo-European language).  If you mean that Latin _vates_ is a loan of Etruscan _vatieke_ and _vatieke_ is yet another loan from Greek (you don't want to consider Phoenician here since it is a Semitic language), then please locate the original Greek word and support the etymology with historical linguistics.

Second, "vataka" is a Pali word.  Whether or not it has made its way into Cambodian has not been discussed here but is besides the point.  Its correct transliteration is _vāṭaka_ and it has descended from Sanskrit _vāṭa_.  Please reflect all diacritic marks (by accurately copy-pasting or with nifty conventions such as using a dot (.) or capitalising the consonant (T)) as they are there for a reason.  For one thing, by T with underdot we know that _vāṭa_ and _vat_ (in _apivat_) are completely different words.

Finally, you meant to write that Cambodian wat is from PIE _*wastu-_ (site, dwelling place, etc.) and NOT from PIE _*wāsto-_ (empty, vast etc.), right?



> Latin "vates" is from PIE*wat. However, vates>vaticanus is not an obvious shift .


In fact it is quite obvious.  The suffix _-icanus_ is a very productive way of making adjectives in Latin.  For example, _afer_ was the adjective meaning "African" until the Republic but it has been supplanted by the secondary _africanus_ by the time of the Empire.



> Brahmi script for Devanegari Skt. was 'promoted' in Phoenicia (or some other verb may be accurate). I'm speculating that there was a link between West-Asian Vedic brahmins and Etruscan priests in some form, and "vatieke" influenced "vates" in Roman speech.


A speculated link between two groups of priests cannot prove anything about linguistics.  Conversely, shared vocabulary among the same groups suggests a link.  You still cannot assume a link between priesthoods to suggest a common vocabulary to prove a link between priesthoods.

*aruniyan*, sorry but the Latin can be reasonably traced back to a PIE root.  When that is the case, citing words from Tamil is illogical as it is not an Indo-European language nor is there evidence to systematic borrowing from Tamil.


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## aruniyan

> *aruniyan*, sorry but the Latin can be reasonably traced back to a  PIE root.  When that is the case, citing words from Tamil is illogical  as it is not an Indo-European language nor is there evidence to  systematic borrowing from Tamil.



Let it be, I am not claiming this word is borrowed from Tamil, it could be the opposite also.

for Vatican can this be a possible etymology?  *

Vati*=Want(which is deficiency or shortage ) can be traced to  PIE *we-no-

*Tican*=Tikan, Take, Gain (overcome) 


If so the south Indian temple name "VEnkadam" matches exactly.
Since i know Tamil i am just trying to use that...

*VE*/Want=VEn/VEndu (Shortage/lackof)
*Tikan*/Take=Kada (Gain or Overcome) (inverse of Tamil "Kada" = "Take" there are many other similar inverse words.. like "Tag"="Kattu" means "to tie"


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## john welch

My #26 has : "On reflection, the Etruscans with Greek-Phoenician influence, may have derived "vatieke", as Cambodians derived "vataka.wat", from PIE *wasto. Latin "vates" is from PIE*wat."
Your 1st q. does not relate to my words. 
Yes, *wastu is the correct root, it's not in Pokorny, which caused my confusion.
I'm guessing that Gr. vatika (region name) is linked to Etruscan vatieke, and speculating that Skt vataka was known to brahmins living in Phoenicia, with common root *wastu. Pali was firmly established in SE Asia as well as India, and its Brahmi script suggests the Phoenicia nation connection. This speculation is a basis for inquiry. (As well as Catholic:Buddhist interactions in monastic traditions).


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## Kevin Beach

I think you're leading yourself up a wrong path trying to link Catholicism with Buddhism just because of a possible cognacy.

The Vatican hill existed in that name for centuries before Christianity. It is not a Christian word, let alone a Catholic one. In ancient Rome it was outside the city limits. It isn't one of the traditional seven hills of Rome. It was the hill outside the city where executions took place. The Catholic Church has a tradition that Saints Peter and Paul were both martyred there by the Romans. St Peter is regarded as the first Pope, which is why the Church's "headquarters" was built there.


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## aruniyan

my final post in this thread may be helpful.

The latin word Vates _*vātēs*_ ([ˈwaːteːs], English pronunciation /ˈveɪtiːz/) resembles the Tamil word "V*E*nthu", 
the vowel pronounced as* AE(long sound)* not "a" or ae(short) which will alter the meaning.

VEnthu  means Guards, Kings or one who face the difficulties, their status is held high and equal to Gods(Deivams)

Some other interesting words with related "VE" Latin connections are,

Hunter  in Tamil is "V*E*ttuvan" and in Latin i think is "Venatores"

Spear is "V*E*l" and there are  words like "Javelin", "Veles", Verutum etc...

Vary is V*E*ru and similar word is Variare(Different).

Wall is VEli and there is Vallum,Weall,_vēlum_

The above words shows us the * AE(long sound)* refers to "inaccessible,not easy etc..." and *"V"* means "To come" so VE is "Inaccessiible to come" so "Vates" can be  Guardian  or Protector.


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## sotos

john welch said:


> I'm guessing that Gr. vatika (region name) is linked to Etruscan vatieke, ....


I was about to mention the Gr. toponym _Vatika_. The productive suffix -ikos is common in Gr. as in Latin. I understand Vatika as "a place to walk/step, approachable", or "a place with shrubs" (Gr. vatos = shrub). The suffix -no(s) is also a productive suffix common in these languages. I don't see why the word has to be Etruscan. Could be a loan from Greek or a lang. from Asia Minor. Remember that a very ancient inscription, possibly Etruscan, has been found in Lemnos island, Greece.


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## john welch

Kevin,
Thanks. As #31+ shows, my reply was deleted and I can't respond to you.
sotos,
The 1st meaning appears to be consistent with the 2 similar forms: vatieke, vataka.
I can't find " vatos" in online dictionaries. Is it modern Greek as an further meaning of "place to walk" (a garden)?


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## Flaminius

aruniyan said:


> Tamil word "V*E*nthu", [and 5 other Tamil words]


The bracketed comment is mine.  While I don't know anything at all about Tamil morphology, these words do not seem to have systematic phonological correspondence with the Latin counterparts.  Please do not bring in candidate words based solely on crude similarity.




john welch said:


> My #26 has : "On reflection, the Etruscans with Greek-Phoenician influence, may have derived "vatieke", as Cambodians derived "vataka.wat", from PIE *wasto. Latin "vates" is from PIE*wat."
> Your 1st q. does not relate to my words.


If the Etruscan and the Latin words are from two different PIE roots, what then is the point of discussing the former in a thread about the latter?




> I'm guessing that Gr. vatika (region name) is linked to Etruscan vatieke, and speculating that Skt vataka was known to brahmins living in Phoenicia, with common root *wastu.


The Greek and the Etruscan words are not linked (see below).  The IE database I have been quoting does not link Sanskrit _vāṭaka_ to PIE _*wastu-_.  You are confounding t and ṭ (T with underdot) once again.  I don't think PIE *t can change into Sanskrit ṭ but if you believe _vāṭaka_ is from _*wastu-_, then please do us a favour by providing an academic discussion to support it.  Brahmins in Phoenicia?  Uh?  You regard "this speculation" as "a basis for inquiry."  In fact, no inquiries can be based on a speculation because it is not a solid fact.  An inquiry without facts at its basis is called baseless and the person who would advance it debases themselves.




sotos said:


> I was about to mention the Gr. toponym _Vatika_.


_Vatika_ is Βάτικα in the original spelling.  Unfortunately, I could not find it in the Perseus Project.  This could mean two things.  First, the Website does not provide a comprehensive list of place names.  Second, the word came into existence only later than Classical Greek.  If Βάτικα was old enough to be contemporary of Etruscan _vatieke_ or Latin _vates_, it must have been pronounced with an initial /b/.  If it was so young a word as to have an initial /v/, then the word was too late to influence either of them.  Like I said, please do not bring in candidate words based solely on crude similarity.


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## berndf

Flaminius said:


> _Vatika_ is Βάτικα in the original spelling.  Unfortunately, I could not find it in the Perseus Project.  This could mean two things.  First, the Website does not provide a comprehensive list of place names.  Second, the word came into existence only later than Classical Greek.


The name of the region is derived from the name of the ancient city of Βοιαί and ancient sources report the city to be named after its founder (see here).



Flaminius said:


> Like I said, please do not bring in candidate words based solely on crude similarity.


I couldn't agree more.


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## john welch

Flaminius said:


> If the Etruscan and the Latin words are from two different PIE roots, what then is the point of discussing the former in a thread about the latter?


Reply:
My agenda is Indo European tradition which includes Etruscans as de-facto influence on Rome. Significant names, for example Cape Kennedy in US  renamed from Cape Canaveral, and DC  as "Washington" not "Potomac", were chosen for deliberate reasons of state. The Pope is "Holy Father", but "Pontiff" remains by choice not by unavoidable association.
So Etruscan vatieke may possibly have influenced the semantics of L. vaticanus, (as 2 separate roots), which led to it being deliberately chosen as the title, not just the address of the place. (Another line of reasoning is the argument that Paul not Peter was the apostle in Rome. So Nero's Circus was not the genuine reason for choosing the Vaticanus site. This is getting far off-topic...)





Flaminius said:


> .. if you believe _vāṭaka_ is from _*wastu-_, then please do us a favour by providing an academic discussion to support it.


 Reply:
I don't know, so I posted the q. here in WRF. My reason for asking is the apparent similarity in meaning of vetieke: vataka.


Brahmins in Phoenicia?
Reply:

*Āgama and Tripiṭaka: Language and literature - Google Books Result*

books.google.com.au/books?isbn=8170227313*...*Bhūpendra Swarup Jain, Raghunātha Śarmā - 2003 - Religion - 604 pages
Since the *Phoenician* alphabet was given a new shape by Brahmana scholars, hence the script came to be known as *Brahmi script*. Majority of the scholars *...*

*Brāhmī script - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia*

The origins of the *Brahmi script* can be traced to the Vedic period. The name *...* Hebrew א. The following table compares Brāhmī with *Phoenician* and Aramaic. *...*


*Phoenician alphabet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia*

Most historians believe that the *Brahmi script* and the subsequent Indic alphabets are derived from the Aramaic script as well, which would make *Phoenician* 
-------
There is evidence of Vedic gods being known by Hurrian rulers, Asia Minor 3400BP. Kambojas were in Caucasus region in 2400BP and also traded kamboja horses from Afghanistan to Sri Lanka from that time. Pali spread from there to SE Asia. Buddhism was later existing in West Asia.So Greek vatika is excluded. That leaves the speculation on Phoenicia nation as contact for vataka as a loanword.


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## john welch

Kevin Beach said:


> I think you're leading yourself up a wrong path trying to link Catholicism with Buddhism just because of a possible cognacy.


Kevin, 
The distances and extent of priestly influence is indicated here. 
Catholic New Advent source:
"Tibetan Buddhism (Lamaism)

Catholic missionaries to Tibet in the early part of the last century were struck by the outward resemblances to Catholic liturgy and discipline that were presented by Lamaism—its infallible head, grades of clergy corresponding to bishop and priest, the cross, mitre, dalmatic, cope, censer, holy water, etc. At once voices were raised proclaiming the Lamaistic origin of Catholic rites and practices. Unfortunately for this shallow theory, the Catholic Church was shown to have possessed these features in common with the Christian Oriental churches long before Lamaism was in existence. The wide propagation of Nestorianism over Central and Eastern Asia as early as A.D. 635 offers a natural explanation for such resemblances as are accretions on Indian Buddhism. The missionary zeal of Tibetan lamas led to the extension of their religion to Tatary in the twelfth and following centuries. While Northern Buddhism was thus exerting a widespread influence over Central and Eastern Asia, the earlier form of Buddhism was making peaceful conquests of the countries and islands in the South. In the fifth century missionaries from Ceylon evangelized Burma. Within the next two centuries, it spread to Siam, Cambodia, Java, and adjacent islands."


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## john welch

*Buddhism and the Roman world - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediahttp://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0)*

*Roman* historical accounts describe an *embassy* sent by the "*Indian* king *...* that the Emperor *Ashoka* sent missionaries, not only to elsewhere in *India* and to Sri

*...**History of Buddhism in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediahttp://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0)*

*Asoka* the great and Mauryan empire *...* The power of the empire was vast—*ambassadors* were sent to other *...* philosophy to new heights, as far as Rome..


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## berndf

john welch said:


> Brahmins in Phoenicia?
> Reply:
> 
> *Āgama and Tripiṭaka: Language and literature - Google Books Result*
> 
> books.google.com.au/books?isbn=8170227313*...*Bhūpendra Swarup Jain, Raghunātha Śarmā - 2003 - Religion - 604 pages
> Since the *Phoenician* alphabet was given a new shape by Brahmana scholars, hence the script came to be known as *Brahmi script*. Majority of the scholars *...*
> 
> *Brāhmī script - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia*
> 
> The origins of the *Brahmi script* can be traced to the Vedic period. The name *...* Hebrew א. The following table compares Brāhmī with *Phoenician* and Aramaic. *...*
> 
> 
> *Phoenician alphabet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia*
> 
> Most historians believe that the *Brahmi script* and the subsequent Indic alphabets are derived from the Aramaic script as well, which would make *Phoenician*


Decedents of the Phoenician alphabet are used all over the world. We are currently using one. During the period of the Brahmi script, decedents of the Phoenician alphabet where used from Persia to Europe. Even if Brahmi is decedent from Aramaic (another decedent from the Phoenician alphabet and used in the Babylonian and Persian empires) this it does not mean that the users of Brahmi ever had any contact with Phoenicians.


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## Flaminius

I shall summarise what you have been arguing for before evaluating them once again.

THESIS:
Cambodian _wat_ and Latin _Vaticanus_ are related to a PIE root _*wastu-_ through inheritance in descendent languages as well as loans and semantic influences between unrelated languages.

Supporting Thesis I:
Cambodian _wat_ is from PIE root _*wastu-_.

Supporting Thesis II:
There is an influence of PIE root _*wastu-_ in Latin _Vaticanus_.Step 1: Latin _Vaticanus_ is not morphologically related to Etruscan _vatieχe_ but got influenced by the semantics of the latter.
Step 2: Etruscan _vatieχe_ is a loan of Pali _vāṭaka_.  The Indic word was introduced to Etruria by Phoenicians.
Step 3: Pali _vāṭaka_ is from PIE root _*wastu-._​ 

I don't have problem with Supporting Thesis I, so let's spare the details.  In fact, they are my points that you have come to agree with.

Supporting Thesis II consists of three smaller statements that I here call Steps.  They are concatenated by ascending chronological order that begins from the Latin word and ultimately ends in a reconstructed PIE root.  In other words, all of the Steps need to be true in order for Supporting Thesis II to be true.



The elusive nature of Step 1 is tough to deal with with scientific certainty whether one is for or against it.  Let me just point out that _Mons Vaticanus_ was less important to the Romans than the Seven Hills in the city and that none of the Seven Hills was named or punned after an important person or idea.  Go figure how it is probable for a hill of less importance.

Step 2 confounds chronological order.  Etruscan _vatieχe_, as found in the Pyrgi Tablets, dates at least 500 BC.  If the word is a loan from a foreign language, contacts between two languages must have happened before the date.  The Mediterranean world's first contacts with India took place after the conquest of Achaemenid Persia by Alexander the Great.  Alexander's army crossed the Hellespont in 334 BC for his Persian campaign.  Phoenicians that traded with Etruscans were great merchants but they were probably not able to procure a word unavailable around the Mediterranean for the next two century or so.

Step 3 is a paraphrase of your previous comment:


john welch said:


> Flaminius said:
> 
> 
> 
> .. if you believe _vāṭaka_ is from _*wastu-_, then please do us a favour by providing an academic discussion to support it.
> 
> 
> 
> Reply:
> I don't know, so I posted the q. here in WRF. My reason for asking is the apparent similarity in meaning of vetieke: vataka.
Click to expand...

The complete sentence of mine from which you made a partial quote is this (emphasis added):*I don't think PIE *t can change into Sanskrit ṭ* but if you believe _vāṭaka_ is from _*wastu-_, then please do us a favour by providing an academic discussion to support it.​Need a candid statement?  Well, then; _vāṭaka_ is NOT from _*wastu-_.  That's my opinion.  If you do not agree with me, that's fine.  You have your own wits to decide what to believe.  In order to continue the discussion, however, you should provide your own argument in favour of the statement.  We will then be able to compare your points for and mine against.

If one discussant disagrees with another, the former's attitude should be, "I am going to prove you wrong.  So listen up!" but not, "I don't like your disagreement.  Prove yourself wrong and agree with me."  If I truly believe that your statement is wrong, do I change my opinion just because you ask so?  I suggest you do your homework yourself.  If your research turns up convincing evidence, I am more than eager to change my opinion.

Another point that needs reassessment is "the apparent similarity in meaning of vetieke: vataka."  According to _The ancient languages of Europe_ by Roger D. Woodard, _vatieχe_ is "was wished for."  Wikipedia has "are dedicated" (s.v. Pyrgi Tablets).  If "vataka" is _vāṭaka_ (enclosure, garden, plantation), how are they similar?


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## sotos

john welch said:


> I can't find " vatos" in online dictionaries. Is it modern Greek as an further meaning of "place to walk" (a garden)?



L-S: vatos (approachable) http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=bato/s

Notice the opposite _avato_s, which has a hieratic/religious meaning, refering to holly places where admition is limited. 
vatos (various plants) found also in Homer: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=ba/tos1


I am not claiming that the Gr. toponym Vatika is older than Vatican, but that both toponyms could have been created through the same process, from the same root which is present in the local languages from antiquity till today. See also, Vatopedi Monastery http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatopedi_monastery
In Christian era the w. vatos (shrub) acquired additional gravity because of the Biblical "_*βάτος* εκαίετο .._." (Exodus 3,2) "_Moses saw that though the *bush* was on fire it did not burn up_."


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## berndf

sotos said:


> I am not claiming that the Gr. toponym Vatika is older than Vatican, but that both toponyms could have been created through the same process,...


We don't have to speculate here. The history of the toponym is different. See above:


berndf said:


> The name of the region is derived from the name of the ancient city of Βοιαί and ancient sources report the city to be named after its founder (see here).


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## john welch

Flaminius said:


> Let me just point out that _Mons Vaticanus_ was less important to the Romans than the Seven Hills in the city and that none of the Seven Hills was named or punned after an important person or idea. Go figure how it is probable for a hill of less importance.


The 7 hills were the tribal villages. Vaticanus had a couple of shrines, it's claimed. That would not be so important for the government but maybe had location, location when the priests needed a prestige religious site, known for prophecy. No doubt there were factual deaths of Christians in the Circus, also. (If the Church was built upon Peter then it could be anywhere if the bones were taken there. Back to the topic...) 


Flaminius said:


> The Mediterranean world's first contacts with India took place after the conquest of Achaemenid Persia by Alexander the Great.


The Vedas may have come from north of India. Persian has similarities with Skt., and Brahmi script was used for Sacian Persian. Sacians in Roman times in India were strongly Greek in culture. Scythian Persians in 2800BP had reached Caucasus and Phoenicia-Egypt and then moved to Ukraine and Hungary territory. Cimmerians were in Asia Minor.Speculation is all that I have about who contacted whom and when.
*
The provinces of the Roman Empire: from Caesar to Diocletian - Google Books Result, *p. 17: _Towards the north and north-east *Iran* bordered with Turan. *...* Coins of these *Sacian* kings, found in the treasure of Peshawur, name in a remarkable way *...*_


Flaminius said:


> _vāṭaka_ is NOT from _*wastu-_. Another point that needs reassessment is "the apparent similarity in meaning of vetieke: vataka." According to _The ancient languages of Europe_ by Roger D. Woodard, _vatieχe_ is "was wished for." Wikipedia has "are dedicated" (s.v. Pyrgi Tablets). If "vataka" is _vāṭaka_ (enclosure, garden, plantation), how are they similar?


The context is "Hermes vatieke". The idol sanctuary is wished for, dedicated. As one of my guesses, the verbal form of vaTaka may be "enclosed, *gardened, *plantationed, *sanctuaryised".


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## berndf

john welch said:


> The 7 hills were the tribal villages. Vaticanus had a couple of shrines, it's claimed. That would not be so important for the government but maybe had location, location when the priests needed a prestige religious site, known for prophecy. No doubt there were factual deaths of Christians in the Circus, also. (If the Church was built upon Peter then it could be anywhere if the bones were taken there. Back to the topic...)
> 
> The Vedas may have come from north of India. Persian has similarities with Skt., and Brahmi script was used for Sacian Persian. Sacians in Roman times in India were strongly Greek in culture. Scythian Persians in 2800BP had reached Caucasus and Phoenicia-Egypt and then moved to Ukraine and Hungary territory. Cimmerians were in Asia Minor.Speculation is all that I have about who contacted whom and when.
> *
> The provinces of the Roman Empire: from Caesar to Diocletian - Google Books Result, *p. 17: _Towards the north and north-east *Iran* bordered with Turan. *...* Coins of these *Sacian* kings, found in the treasure of Peshawur, name in a remarkable way *...*_
> 
> The context is "Hermes vatieke". The idol sanctuary is wished for, dedicated. As one of my guesses, the verbal form of vaTaka may be "enclosed, *gardened, *plantationed, *sanctuaryised".


I am really at a loss what kind of argument are you presenting here?

You seem to just randomly match words containing "wat", "vat" or "bat" and present "maybe"-connections which are as likely as winning the jackpot in next week's national lottery. Even if you pile up a hundred of them this still doesn't even come close to a convincing argument to link the _Vatican_ and _Angkor Wat_.


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## Flaminius

How _vāṭaka_ is not from _*wastu-_:
According to _The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary_, _vāṭaka_ is from Sanskrit _vāṭa_.  The latter, according to _Monier Williams Sanskrit-English Dictionary_ (939) is from _vaṭa_.  The dictionary is a little less didactic when it says that perhaps _vaṭa_'s root is √_vr̥it_ (914).  Its closest correspondence in PIE is *_wert-_ or to turn.


*john welch*, please may I once again request your argument in defence of your statement that _vāṭaka_ is from _*wastu-_ (Step 3 as defined in #41  _supra_).



*Appeal to all posters in this thread:*
We have been dealing with a lot of speculations solely based on chance coincidence.  None of them has led to a scientifically acceptable conclusion.  I suggest all of us should read this thread before proposing a candidate word that sounds similar or means similar or is similar by both criteria.  Maybe not all of us have the patience to read all the posts there.  But #3 by *Frank06* is a must.  Please read it carefully and you will know how chance coincidence is a bad start for a discussion in historical linguistics.


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## aruniyan

Flaminius said:


> *Appeal to all posters in this thread:*
> We have been dealing with a lot of speculations solely based on chance coincidence.  None of them has led to a scientifically acceptable conclusion.  I suggest all of us should read this thread before proposing a candidate word that sounds similar or means similar or is similar by both criteria.  Maybe not all of us have the patience to read all the posts there.  But #3 by *Frank06* is a must.  Please read it carefully and you will know how chance coincidence is a bad start for a discussion in historical linguistics.


off topic, I have some questions for you?


* is the PIE roots found by some are the ultimatum here and without mistakes?

*Why we need to assume that words spread only by mass migration and occupation, even a single learned man is enough?

* can you please explain. on what basic these have the correspondence?
related to the word  Femina, suffixed form of L. base *fe-, corresponding to PIE *dhe(i)- "to suck, suckle,"
is the above one correct?
Why i should not suggest the Tamil word 
*"Pen"* meaning "women", "pen"   p+e= "multiplies+easily"?
*Penmai* is womanhood.?

Thanks,


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## berndf

aruniyan said:


> off topic, I have some questions for you?


*Moderator note: In principal yes, but as we need to clarify a few principle points here, I accept your questions here.*


aruniyan said:


> * is the PIE roots found by some are the ultimatum here and without mistakes?


No, they are conjectures, based on a lot of research and comparing a lot of languages and their attested history but they are still conjectures.


aruniyan said:


> *Why we need to assume that words spread only by mass migration and occupation, even a single learned man is enough?


We do not. Language spread in a lot of ways.


aruniyan said:


> * can you please explain. on what basic these have the correspondence?


Languages evolve out of predecessor languages from which they inherit words. Words can also enter languages as loans and calques (loan translations). Through either process they mutate. Superficial similarity is often a treacherous heuristic. E.g. Latin _habere_ and English _have_ are similar (if you accept /b/ and /v/ as similar sounds) and mean the same but they are *not* cognate (they do *not* come from the same root). English _have _is cognate to Latin _capere_ which superficially doesn't look similar at all. But when you take into account that "c" in Latin corresponds to "h" in Germanic (well certain "c"s; but the details don't matter) and Latin "p" corresponds to Germanic "f" (again in certain cases) and Germanic "v" was historically not a distinct letter (phoneme) but a variant of "f" (occurring between vowels) the relationship is clearer. If you want to formulate educated hypotheses and not mere speculations you first study the development pattern of languages (how do inherited languages work, when and how did languages interact and how do they loan words) and *then* you can make confident assertions about individual words. When analyzing historic (as distinct from pre-historic) languages, we can of course look at historical records and don't have to "guess" based on patterns. But when going back to PIE roots, we can't as written records don't go that far back in time.


aruniyan said:


> related to the word  Femina, suffixed form of L. base *fe-, corresponding to PIE *dhe(i)- "to suck, suckle,"


*Moderator note: This is really off-topic. If it interests you, open a new thread.*


aruniyan said:


> Why i should not suggest the Tamil word


Tamil interacted with Vedic. But there is no time machine, not in our daily life and not in linguistics. Interaction between two languages cannot influence the predecessor language (PIE) of one of them (Vedic). If we are hunting for common roots between Latin and Vedic, we have to go back in time to their common ancestor. Of course, languages can interact also over long distances after they split. But then you have to be more specific: how and when did they interact? Do we have records? Similarities by chance are simply much too probable to be taken seriously without accompanying evidence.


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## aruniyan

berndf,

I am satisfied and clarified.

I am a learner and its interesting here.

Thanks.


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## berndf

You are most welcome.


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## john welch

My #26 and #30 accepted that Skt vaTaka is not from PIE *wat. In my #37 I said I didn't know whether it's from PIE *wastu.
/*wert is helpful, but not yet convincing. The thread gave useful info to guide my inquiry. Thanks.


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