# the use of the article before the name of the street



## linguos

I was always told that we can say "children are playing on *the* street", but "He lives in Oxford Street" and never "He lives in *the* Oxford Street". 

The rule was meant to be that we shouldn't use the article when we refer to a specific street, the name of which we know very well and mention it in our speech. On the other hand, when we talk about something happening outside the house, and therefore [usually] on the street, we shouldn't forget to use the definite article.

However, I've just stumbled across such lines in the text of a novel:

_"Every evening when Hannah finished work they met at 5.30 in a coffee bar in *the* High Street. They were madly in love."_, and later there is:

_"She ran to her car and got it. At 5.25 she was driving along *the *High Street."_

Why are the articles used here?


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## PaulQ

A "high street" is the main road usually in a village or small town. High Street is a common name for streets and roads. The capitalisation is all important. In the example you give, the author has got it wrong, it is either,
_ At 5.25 she was driving along *the *High Street."

or

__ At 5.25 she was driving along *the *high street."_

To make things more difficult for non-native speakers, we have:
"The Oxford Street in  Birmingham, with its industrial buildings, is quite different from the Oxford Street in London."

If you want more complications, a friend of mine lives in small village where the high street is actually called "The Street", so his postal address is "4, The Street"


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## Lodzubelieveit

You can say _the_ High Street because it is a common thing that there is only one of in a town. In the same way that you go to _the_ airport etc.


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## linguos

So, *PaulQ* says that the author got it wrong, while *Lodzubelieveit* suggets that it's fine. I always get confused when native don't agree on something like that... 

By the way, the quotes come from a story included in the New English File Student's Book issued by the Oxford University Press. The book is supposed to teach foreigners the proper English, so I suppose they double- and even triple-checked it before the publication.


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## Loob

Unlike Paul, I don't think linguos's author has got it wrong: I think that there are historical factors at play here.  

To take a different example first - I grew up in a town called Yeovil on  a road officially called "Preston Road".  But it was very often  referred to as "_the_ Preston Road" because it was the originally  the road leading from Yeovil to the neighbouring village of  Preston Plucknett.  And in the city I now live in, I often hear  "Cheltenham Road" referred to as "the Cheltenham Road" because it's the  road that leads to Cheltenham.

Similarly, a "high street" was originally a high (main) road to  somewhere. So it's fairly natural for it still to retain an article,  even when it's been given the 'official' capitalised name "High Street".  



PS. Just to add an interesting perhaps-corroborative detail: the street  called "High Street" in Oxford is usually known as "The High".


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## ribran

It seems the only thing they disagree on is whether to capitalize _high_ when the article is used. In the United States, articles are almost never used with street names, although I sometimes use them with "main street" and "high street," both lowercase. By the way, High Streets don't seem to be very common west of the Mississippi River.


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## linguos

*Ribran*, I don't think the capitalisation is the issue here. I believe in this story, "High Street" is the proper name of the street, just as it could be "Paradise Street" or "Broadway Street" or "Washington Street".

What *PaulQ* seems to suggest agrees completely with what my English teacher taught me - that we shouldn't use articles before the proper street names. However, it appears that the other natives disaggree, and I wonder whether it depends on the context or what.

Could one, for instance, say _"I live in *the* Pulaski Street"_?


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## Loob

linguos said:


> However, it appears that the other natives disaggree, and I wonder whether it depends on the context or what.


Yes, it does - see my post 5 above. 



> Could one, for instance, say _"I live _in on_ *the* Pulaski Street"_?


I very much doubt it.  I'd only see it as normal in the context of (a) "High Street" and (b) "XXX Road" = the road leading to XXX.


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## ribran

It seems to depend a lot on local custom. In the United States, we would say, "I live on Pulaski Street."


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## Loob

ribran said:


> It seems to depend a lot on local custom. In the United States, we would say, "I live on Pulaski Street."


Same here, in general.

But I've just thought of a (c) to add to my post 8 above - where the name of the street actually incorporates "The", as in "The Mount" or Paul's friend's "The Street".


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## PaulQ

I think Loob is right about the historical factors and it could just possibly be that “high street” as the generic name for the main street of a town (whatever its real name is) has taken on a status where capitalisation is allowable (but not correct) though I doubt it.

  Loob’s examples of (i) “Preston Road and (ii) “the Preston (R)(r)oad” have different meanings; (i) is its official name and (ii) is a description = “the road that leads to Preston”. If Smith Road led to or towards Dover, Smith Road could be referred to as “the Dover *r*oad” “Dover” being an adjective.



linguos said:


> Could one, for instance, say _"I live in *the* Pulaski Street"_?


No, not unless your Pulaski Street was world famous amongst other Pulaski Streets and you emphasised "the". In which case you would be announcing it with pride.

  e.g. “You live in the (pron: thuh) Oxford Street in Birmingham? I live in *the* (pron: thee) Oxford Street.”


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## linguos

Loob, yes I've read your post #5, I just wasn't sure if "the" would be used only in the instances you mentioned, or could one also say _"I like to go to the shops in *the* Oxford Street" _when he would mean exactly the famous shopping street in London, as opposed to the other "Oxford Streets" in other towns and cities?

Also, why on earth have you crossed the preposition "in" out and changed it to "on" in my sentence?


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## Ceremoniar

I completely agree with Paul Q. The definite article should not be there in the original question.


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## linguos

Ceremoniar said:


> I completely agree with Paul Q. The definite article should not be there in the original question.


Just for clarification, do you mean these two sentences:_ "At 5.25 she was driving along *the* High Street."_ and _"[...] they met at 5.30 in a coffee bar in *the* High Street"_?


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## Ceremoniar

If High Street is capitalized, it is a proper noun, and no article should be used.


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## ribran

PaulQ said:


> e.g. “You live in the (pron: thuh) Oxford Street in Birmingham? I live in *the* (pron: thee) Oxford Street.”



This is a good example.

_I live on Turtle Creek Boulevard _(one of the most expensive streets in Dallas)_. Yes, *the* Turtle Creek Boulevard._


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## linguos

Yes, thank you, Ceremoniar. So, now there are four of us (you, PaulQ, my English teacher and me).


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## Einstein

Ceremoniar said:


> If High Street is capitalized, it is a proper noun, and no article should be used.


Except that in the town where I grew up it was definitely *the* High Street. "High street" began as a definition (the main shopping street), with an article, and then it became the actual name of the street for want of a real name. It's probably mid-way between a definition and a name, so also the rule is mid-way: capitalised but with an article.


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## Lodzubelieveit

In the sentences in question, 'the' is OK, but optional. It is only OK because each town has one and only one High Street, and it is a characteristic description of a street. You wouldn't say _the_ Pusalski Street unless there was one in every town and it was a characteristic type of street.


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## Ceremoniar

Einstein said:


> Except that in the town where I grew up it was definitely *the* High Street. "High street" began as a definition (the main shopping street), with an article, and then it became the actual name of the street for want of a real name. It's probably mid-way between a definition and a name, so also the rule is mid-way: capitalised but with an article.


 
Perhaps, but this would seem to be an unusual local circumstance, one that does not lend itself to the regular rule.


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## natkretep

Loob said:


> I'd only see it as normal in the context of (a) "High Street" and (b) "XXX Road" = the road leading to XXX.





Loob said:


> But I've just thought of a (c) to add to my post 8 above - where the name of the street actually incorporates "The", as in "The Mount" or Paul's friend's "The Street".



I agree with Loob about how descriptive names of roads can turn into proper nouns. Presumably, the US equivalent of _high street_ is _main road_, which can also become the street name. I'm wondering if the distinction between _main road_ and _Main Road_ can also be blurred?


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## ribran

natkretep said:


> I agree with Loob about how descriptive names of roads can turn into proper nouns. Presumably, the US equivalent of _high street_ is _main road_, which can also become the street name. I'm wondering if the distinction between _main road_ and _Main Road_ can also be blurred?



We have both High Streets and Main *Streets *(see post #6).


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## linguos

OK, so the author of the story could use the article that way, because the "Hight Street" used to be just "the high street" before it received an official proper name, right?

But normally, the rule my English teacher taught is true, so these sentences would be incorrect if there was the definite article before the street names:

_"There are lots of interesting shops in Oxford Street"._

_"I was driving along Nowy Swiat Street."_

_"He lives in Rectory Road."_

_"You need to go down St Cross Rd and take the first left to get to Manor Rd."?_


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## Loob

Einstein said:


> Except that in the town where I grew up it was definitely *the* High Street. "High street" began as a definition (the main shopping street), with an article, and then it became the actual name of the street for want of a real name. It's probably mid-way between a definition and a name, so also the rule is mid-way: capitalised but with an article.


I think Einstein's hit the nail on the head.  I can't imagine ever saying "I'll meet you at the supermarket in High Street" - it would always be "I'll meet you at the supermarket in the High Street".





linguos said:


> these sentences would be incorrect if there was the definite article before the street names:
> 
> _"There are lots of interesting shops in Oxford Street"._
> 
> _"I was driving along Nowy Swiat Street."_
> 
> _"He lives in Rectory Road."_
> 
> _"You need to go down St Cross Rd and take the first left to get to Manor Rd."?_


Yes, that's correct.


(assuming St Cross is not a destination)


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## natkretep

ribran said:


> We have both High Streets and Main *Streets *(see post #6).



Thanks, Ribran. Sorry, I must be thinking of the Main Roads I encountered in the UK then. For example, there's Main Road, a street in Oldham near Manchester.


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## linguos

Loob said:


> Yes, that's correct.
> 
> 
> (assuming St Cross is not a destination)


No, the St Catherine's College is the destination, and it is in Manor Road. 

Anyway, why did you correct me before when I used "in" as opposed to the American "on", while now you say that the senteces are correct?


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## Loob

linguos said:


> Anyway, why did you corrected me before when I used "in" as opposed to the American "on", while now you say that the senteces are correct?


If you put _in on street_ into *Dictionary and thread title search*, you'll find many other threads, linguos - here's one: Preposition: in the street, on the street, at the street?


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## linguos

Loob said:


> If you put _in on street_ into *Dictionary and thread title search*, you'll find many other threads, linguos - here's one: Preposition: in the street, on the street, at the street?


I really don't see your point. 

I didn't ask whether I should use "in" or "on", because I know that both are correct, it would just seem that traditionally Brits would say "I live in XYZ Street", though perhaps nowadays they are so influenced by the American TV that there is a rising number of Brits saying "I live on XYZ Street", so I don't need to reread this or any other similar thread on the subject.

Anyway, I asked why YOU marked using "in" as *incorrect* in that example (ie. "I live in Pulaski Street").


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## ribran

Linguos,

Did you see post #26 in that thread? 



> I think the choice between in and on (in 3&4) depends on how big the street happens to be.
> Oxford Street is huge. If anyone lives there, they live on Oxford Street.
> Chadwick Street is short. People who live there live in Chadwick Street.



Perhaps there is also an element of how much traffic the road carries. It seems that roads that take a definite article in the United Kingdom are main routes between towns, which may explain why Loob suggested that you use _on_ with "*the* Pulaski Street."

You'll want to wait for a response from a British speaker.


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## Loob

linguos said:


> Anyway, I asked why YOU marked using "in" as *incorrect* in that example (ie. "I live in Pulaski Street").


Your example was "I live in *the* Pulaski Street".  If I were saying, for example, "I live [...] *the* Preston Road", then I would always choose "on".

Further discussion of _in on street_ would be off-topic in this thread.

--------

EDIT: I've just seen Ribran's reply above - thanks, Ribran: that's exactly why I pointed linguos to that particular thread.


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## linguos

Ribran,

I read it and in the same post *panjadnrum* states: "It seems to be quite *subjective*."  There were also others, like *Porte**ñ**o*, who couldn't recall such distinction.

Besides, how on earth would she know if my _Pulaski Street_ was wide, long, etc.? I just invented this name for my example. I didn't mean any particular street.

EDIT: OK, *Loob*, thank you, that's all I wanted to know. It could still be only your subjective opinion though. In the story I referred to it says "they met in a coffee bar *in* the High Street", I don't see why would it be any different when we say where we live.


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## Einstein

natkretep said:


> Thanks, Ribran. Sorry, I must be thinking of the Main Roads I encountered in the UK then. For example, there's Main Road, a street in Oldham near Manchester.


This may be a particular case, but I usually think of the _main road_ as the route to somewhere, passing through the town or village, that may or may not have the features of a High Street.


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## entangledbank

I don't think in general the road to somewhere can be _named_ 'the X *R*oad'. It can of course be _described_ as 'the X *r*oad' (lower-case <r>). In London there are several roads that commonly use 'the' - the Edgware Road, the Marylebone Road, the Old Kent Road. I would regard these as alternative names: the street officially called Edgware Road is unofficially called either that or the Edgware Road. (Everyone says The Strand but it's officially Strand.) But these three are historical relics, and we can't freely do it with other names: in the same area, Hampstead Road leads towards Hampstead but isn't called the Hampstead Road.

The High Street, with capitals, seems to be an exception of the same kind but a generic one. It's not just the high street (description), it's a proper name that exceptionally allows an optional article. We'd almost always say 'the', but of course in speech we can't tell whether we're using capital letters.


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## Fabulist

ribran said:


> It seems the only thing they disagree on is whether to capitalize _high_ when the article is used. In the United States, articles are almost never used with street names, although I sometimes use them with "main street" and "high street," both lowercase. By the way, High Streets don't seem to be very common west of the Mississippi River.


 
Or east of it.  I think there must be a "High Street" somewhere in the U.S., but unless I knew positively to the contrary, I would assume that a reference to either "High Street" or "the high street" was by a Briton to a place in Britain.

There is, or used to be, a road in England called simply, "The Street."  It existed in Anglo-Saxon times but I don't know whether the route is still referred to that way or not.

"The" used to be used in the U.S. in reference to roads designated by their destinations or distant end points.  The Battle of Gettysburg (1863) was fought where it was because of the local road network.  Contemporary and later accounts of the battle refer to the roads down which Union and Confederate soldiers marched as "the Baltimore [Turn]Pike," "the Taneytown road," "the Chambersburg Pike," etc.  These were descriptive terms (people in Taneytown and Chambersburg would have had to call them "the Gettysburg road" or the "Gettysburg Pike"), although the "pikes" were (or had been) toll roads and thus had proper names.  These 19th-century names have been converted into formal municipal street names without "the," however.  AE still uses a definite article with a descriptive name that is not a capitalized legal name, either because there is no legal name or it is unfamiliar.  If County Route 451 goes to Turtleville, we would still call it "the Turtleville road."  But locally in my area, I would refer to "Rockville Pike" and "Old Georgetown Road," not "the Rockville Pike" or "the old Georgetown road."

I don't think "the" is ever used with a formally named street or road in the U.S. except in the unusual circumstances such as a specification that the referant is a famous or prestigious address and not an ordinary, humdrum road with the same name somewhere else.


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## ribran

I have a lot of family in the Washington, DC metropolitan area. My mother is originally from Annapolis. My eldest sister lives in Sixteenth Street Heights and has a house in Strasburg, VA, just a few miles south of the western terminus of I-66. My aunt lives a few miles east of Rockville Pike in Silver Spring. I believe there are many High Streets on the Eastern Shore of Maryland, where my maternal grandparents live.


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## natkretep

Resurrecting this old thread. This just occurred to me when I was looking at my sat nav which said 'Driving on AYE', and thought, 'They've omitted the article there!' I need to say that motorways here are given three-letter acronyms and conventionally the article is used, so we'd say 'I'm on the AYE.' This would be true of numbered roads in the UK: 'I'm on the M6', 'There's an accident on the M25', and so on_. _​I'm not entirely sure about US usage though.


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## Mahantongo

In US usage, one does not speak of a numbered route with a definite article.  Highways that are part of the Interstate System are officially called "Interstate [whatever number]", although the universal practice is to abbreviate the word "interstate" to the letter "I" (rhyming with "eye") followed by the number. Interstate 95 is always called "I-95" (pronounced as _eye ninety-five_) and Interstate 81 is "I-81" (pronounced _eye eighty-one_.)  One may thus say "The most direct route from Allentown to New York is I-78."  

In the same way, the older United States routes are called "US [whatever number]." The letters are pronounced as two separate letters (thus, US 22 is pronounced _yoo ess twenty-two_), and again there is no article:
_Before I-78 was built, you went from Allentown to New York on US 22.

_State or county highways are sometimes called "Route [whatever number] (which is also the case with some United States highways: US 66 is also called Route 66).  Thus, State Highway #3 in New Jersey is always referred to as "Route 3":
_To get to the Meadowlands Racetrack from Manhattan, take the Lincoln Tunnel and then get on Route 3.

_However, for smaller highways it is most common for the road to be called just by the number, without the full "County Route [number]' or "Township Route [number]" included:
_To get from Good Spring to Gratz, take 125 to Hegins, and then go west on 25.
_


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## natkretep

Thanks, so if I say, 'Go on _the_ I-78', or 'Before _the _​US 22 was built ...', I would definitely sound foreign!


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## Mahantongo

Or at least odd.  

Note, though, that if a highway has a _name _rather than a number, the name usually has a definite article:

_US 30 follows the route of *the* Lincoln Highway.

I had no idea that *the *Brooklyn-Queens Expressway is officially known as I-278.

We took* the* Pennsylvania Turnpike from Harrisburg to Valley Forge._


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## sinkya

I've read this thread and the general rule is not to use an article for a street name and there are AE/BE differences and some exceptions.

Do you say any of the street names below with “the”?  I want to know whether to use an article for street names, in general. 

I wrote some names of the real streets, but some are just names I came up with.


“Keep straight until you reach (the?) [Grosvenor Terrace / Oak Way / Hollywood Boulevard / Flinders Lane  / Spring St.  / 2nd Ave.]”


If you say “the 2nd Ave,  do you write without an article when you write “ reach 2nd Ave.” but read it with “the” when you read it out loud, as you would for dates when you write/talk about your schedule?


Thank you.


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## Loob

sinkya said:


> I want to know whether to use an article for  street names, in general.


As you say, the general rule is that  street names don't take articles.





sinkya said:


> Do you say any of the street names below with “the”?
> ...
> “Keep straight until you reach (the?) [Grosvenor Terrace / Oak Way / Hollywood Boulevard / Flinders Lane  / Spring St.  / 2nd Ave.]”


I wouldn't use "the" with any of those street names, sinkya.


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## sinkya

Thank you!


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## TeacherinTokyo

Mahantongo said:


> In US usage, one does not speak of a numbered route with a definite article. Highways that are part of the Interstate System are officially called "Interstate [whatever number]", although the universal practice is to abbreviate the word "interstate" to the letter "I" (rhyming with "eye") followed by the number. Interstate 95 is always called "I-95" (pronounced as _eye ninety-five_) and Interstate 81 is "I-81" (pronounced _eye eighty-one_.) One may thus say "The most direct route from Allentown to New York is I-78."
> 
> In the same way, the older United States routes are called "US [whatever number]." The letters are pronounced as two separate letters (thus, US 22 is pronounced _yoo ess twenty-two_), and again there is no article:
> _Before I-78 was built, you went from Allentown to New York on US 22.
> _
> State or county highways are sometimes called "Route [whatever number] (which is also the case with some United States highways: US 66 is also called Route 66). Thus, State Highway #3 in New Jersey is always referred to as "Route 3":
> _To get to the Meadowlands Racetrack from Manhattan, take the Lincoln Tunnel and then get on Route 3.
> _
> However, for smaller highways it is most common for the road to be called just by the number, without the full "County Route [number]' or "Township Route [number]" included:
> _To get from Good Spring to Gratz, take 125 to Hegins, and then go west on 25._



Mahantongo,

Thank you for your thoughtful and thorough explanation. Unfortunately, I have to disagree with the universality of your explanation. There are in fact many people who use "the" before route numbers and names of interstate routes. Here are a few common ways I've heard directions being given in New York State, Connecticut, Pennsylvania, Delaware, and Florida.

- Take the 90 to exit 23a, then get on the 20 till you get to Center Road.
- Take the I-90 to exit 23a, then get on Route 20 till you get to Center Road.
- Take I-90 to exit 23a, then get on Route 20 till you get to Center Road.

I'm sensing it may be a commonly varied regional difference. It's worth mentioning that the US is such a massive country, and the more I encounter people from various cities, states and regions, the more I realize how much of our English is not, in fact, standardized.

All the best to you, and best of luck to the students in search of universal grammar rules in English!


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