# Urdu: گواہ گردی



## iskander e azam

Friends, 

I am reading کالا پانی : تواریخِ عجیب which is the memoir of مولانا محمد جعفر تھانیسری published originally in 1885. I am reading the reprint of 2018 with a introduction by محمد حامد سراج. Please note all page numbers are from this edition and may not match the edition to which you have access.

مولانا صاحب entitles chapter 5 (p35) گواہ گردی and throughout it he gives examples of the British trying to tempt patriotic Indian Muslims to turn state witness or approver. However, other than in the title he does not use this word again in the chapter. 

Clearly, it means something like 'turning state witness'. 

An internet search brings up no hits: Platts, Ferouz ul Lughat and Urdu Lughat give no help either.

I would like to know: is گواہ گردی current? Does anyone have a dictionary entry definition for it?

All help appreciated.

Best wishes,

Alex


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## marrish

No, I'm afraid there is no dictionary entry available with me for this one. I don't think it can mean "turning" in this case, no matter how "gardii" and "turning" match.


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## Qureshpor

گواہ گردی from گواہ گشتن means "Becoming a witness" or even "Being a witness".


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## marrish

Farhang-e-Asafiyyah does have گردی _gardii_ as an element of compounds:


> ⁍ *گردی* .ف. اسم مونث (مرکّبات میں):
> (۱) گردش، پھِرنا، جیسے «آوارہ گردی، ہرزہ گردی»
> (۲۔ اُ)  انقلاب، افراتفری، پلٹی، جیسے «بادشاہ گردی»
> (۳۔ اُ)  زوال، تنزل، بےقدری، بےوقری، جیسے «اشراف گردی»
> (۴۔ اُ) حملہ آوری ؛ دَور دَورا، عہد، جیسے «نادر گردی۔ پٹھان گردی».


These are mentioned as well in under different entries: جہاں گردی، کوچہ گردی،  آوارہ گردی،  اشراف گردی ۔ (اشراف گردی ہے=بھلے کا زمانہ نہیں)، نادر گردی (نادر گردی نے گھر کے گھر بے چراغ کر دئیے)۔


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> Farhang-e-Asafiyyah does have گردی _gardii_ as an element of compounds:
> 
> These are mentioned as well in under different entries: جہاں گردی، کوچہ گردی،  آوارہ گردی،  اشراف گردی ۔ (اشراف گردی ہے=بھلے کا زمانہ نہیں)، نادر گردی (نادر گردی نے گھر کے گھر بے چراغ کر دئیے)۔


Thank you, marrish SaaHib. Similar explanation is found in Platts.

P گردي _gardī_ (fr. _gard_, q.v.) , s.f. Wandering, travelling;—change; revolution;—separation; *downfall, misfortune, affliction* (used as last member of compounds):—_ashrāf-gardī_, s.f. A calamity on the nobility; downfall of the aristocracy:—_pādshāh-gardī_, s.f. Dethronement of a king; revolution; anarchy:—_paṭhān-gardī_, s.f. The Paṭhāṇ invasion (under Aḥmad Shāh Durrānī).

So, where does گواہ گردی fit? Under "misfortune, affliction"? And how would we then translate گواہ گردی? The highlighted part seems to convey a somewhat vague negative concept. Perhaps "malpractice surrounding witness appointment"?


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## iskander e azam

marrish said:


> No, I'm afraid there is no dictionary entry available with me for this one. I don't think it can mean "turning" in this case, no matter how "gardii" and "turning" match.





Qureshpor said:


> So, where does گواہ گردی fit? Under "misfortune, affliction"? And how would we then translate گواہ گردی? The highlighted part seems to convey a somewhat vague negative concept. Perhaps "malpractice surrounding witness appointment"?



Friends,

Why are you both so opposed to 'turning state's evidence' or similar? It has 29,000 hits plus on Google. It is perfectly idiomatic English.


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## Qureshpor

اسکندر اعظم صاحب، اِس لئے کہ ہمیں گواہ گردی میں گردی کے معنے گھومنا مناسب نہیں لگتے۔ 

بندہ بشر ہے۔ ہم سے غلطی بھی ہو سکتی ہے۔ اگر آپ اپنی رائے سے مطمئن ہیں تو فبہا۔


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## marrish

جی جواب دینے کا شکریہ۔ میں نے ابھی تک کالا پانی کا وہ مضمون نہیں پڑھا جس کے پڑھنے سے شاید اس عنوان کو درست سیاق و سباق کی روشنی میں سمجھا جائے۔

گواہوں کا پلٹنا" بھی ایک امکان ہے۔"


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## iskander e azam

Friends,

I think the problem lies in that in English 'turning' does have the meaning of 'becoming' whereas گردی does not possess the meaning of 'turning'. 

Best wishes,

Alex


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## Qureshpor

Qureshpor said:


> Thank you, marrish SaaHib. Similar explanation is found in Platts.
> 
> P گردي _gardī_ (fr. _gard_, q.v.) , s.f. Wandering, travelling;—change; revolution;—separation; *downfall, misfortune, affliction* (used as last member of compounds):—_ashrāf-gardī_, s.f. A calamity on the nobility; downfall of the aristocracy:—_pādshāh-gardī_, s.f. Dethronement of a king; revolution; anarchy:—_paṭhān-gardī_, s.f. The Paṭhāṇ invasion (under Aḥmad Shāh Durrānī).
> 
> So, where does گواہ گردی fit? Under "misfortune, affliction"? And how would we then translate گواہ گردی? The highlighted part seems to convey a somewhat vague negative concept. Perhaps "malpractice surrounding witness appointment"?


Here is what Dehkhoda says about گردی.

(گردی . [ گ َ ] (اِ) بدبختی و *زوال جاه* ، همچون : پادشاه گردی و اشراف گردی . (آنندراج

I believe the important part here is *زوال جاه *implying "fall from grace". In the context of گواہ گردی, those witnesses have perhaps fallen from grace!

PS: I have just asked a close friend of mine who is a scholar and a gentleman. He said, without knowing any context...

"I am not sure but I think it may refer to rounding up false witness (es) to lie in order to win a legal case."


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## iskander e azam

Qureshpor said:


> "*I am not sure but I think it may refer to rounding up false witness (es) to lie in order to win a legal case.*"


 My emphasis.

Q SaaHIb, 

Bingo! This is exactly what مولانا صاحب describes in this chapter. My OP was misleading as it concentrated on those that did not succumb to the temptation of becoming an approver. My reading of the text leads me to think مولانا صاحب was guilty as charged (from the British perspective) but they could not prove it and had to rely on coerced witness testimonies.

Many thanks,

Alex


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## marrish

It's probably right but don't we have the freedom to discuss the topic beyond the needs of the OP once it's posted? While not having read the text, as I mentioned before, I have an equally plausible explanation which is different: گواہ گردی on the pattern and with the semantic meaning of غنڈہ گردی . Your thoughts please.


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## Qureshpor

marrish SaaHib, before this thread I had n't given much thought to the suffix گردی. Perhaps the most common words with this suffix are دہشت گردی ، آوارہ گردی and غنڈہ گردی. In Iran I have stayed in a hotel called جہان گردی. There is also of course صحرا گردی.

Out of these جہاں گردی and صحرا گردی come under one heading of wondering (گھومنا، پھرنا).

دہشت گردی I thought was equivalent to دہشت پھیلانا but now I feel it falls in the same category as...

غنڈہ گردی، اشراف گردی، بادشاہ گردی and گواہ گردی. How one conveys the concept of گردی in these and similar words is the question being posed in this thread.

آوارہ گردی I thought perhaps fitted in with جہاں گردی and صحرا گردی but now I am feel it should be lumbered with غنڈہ گردی.


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## PersoLatin

iskander e azam said:


> Friends,
> 
> I think the problem lies in that in English 'turning' does have the meaning of 'becoming' whereas گردی does not possess the meaning of 'turning'.
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Alex


Persian گردی does indeed have the meaning of 'turning', in terms like برگشتن it means turning back/around/upside down, e.g. بخت ‏برگشته.

گشتن, گردش as has been said by Qureshpor, has a few closely related meanings and principal amongst them are, turning and wondering. There's also another meaning 'to look for', which is really wondering.

عقب گردی means turning backwards, regression.

I don't know Urdu so I can't tell the context of گواہ گردی but as a guess based on the OP, I'd say 'turning into a witness' or 'looking for witnesses', even 'looking for someone to turn into a witness' makes sense. Regardless of the term's intended meaning, it clearly fails to convey its meaning.


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## Alfaaz

Relevant thread and quote: Urdu: گرد


			
				Faylasoof said:
			
		

> I agree with you QP SaaHIb, as far as I know we don't really have _ghundah-gard_, just _ghundah_! However, one can see that easily it could have been _ghundah-gard_, given that _ghundah-gardii_exists.
> ... and BP SaaHib, you are right about the 'going around' meaning of '-_gard_' here. So in that sense a _dahshat-gard_ would be one going around causing _dahshat_. But a _jahaaN-gard_ = world traveller, tourist. Again, _-gard_ is being used for one going around. In this sense the one below can also be understood. we also have گردش _gardish_ form the same root - گردیدن _gardiidan_.
> 
> There are other _-gard_ compounds below, but not all are used in everyday Urdu. Some, like _wil-gard_ are not used at all, except in households where Persian might also be spoken. Instead of _wil-gard_ we normally use _aawaarah_ - yet another Persian word.
> 
> خواب گرد xaab / xwaab-gard = somnambulist, sleep walker
> شب گرد shab-gard = night watchman (evening stroller )
> ول گرد wil-gard = آوارہ aawaarah = vagrant, loiterer, gadabout
> كوچه گرد kuuchah-gard= street walker / wanderer, one walking the streets and bye-lanes
> آسمان گرد aasmaan-gard = one flying / going about the skies [or one going to cloud nine after taking drugs!]


(Disclaimer: The following is not intended to present anyone or any profession in a negative light. However, since these terms have been relatively recently (?) coined and used often in Urdu media, it seems appropriate to mention them in this academic discussion.)


			
				marrish said:
			
		

> ... I have an equally plausible explanation which is different: گواہ گردی on the pattern and with the semantic meaning of غنڈہ گردی . Your thoughts please.


There are also these compounds with _-gardii _as a suffix that might be related to گواہ گردی:

وکلاء گردی 
_wandering of lawyers _(asserting their influence) → _"_غنڈا گردی/_thuggery _or_ attack/invasion of lawyers"_ (similar to what marrish SaaHib seems to be pointing towards)

پلیس/پولیس گردی 
_roaming of police _
_Police misusing rights_ (similar to وکلاء گردی)
_Government or any other authority using police for carrying out actions that are not in included in the duties of police/against the law/etc._ (similar to the definition of گواہ گردی provided by Qureshpor SaaHib's friend)


دانش گردی 
_(humorous; sarcastic) wandering around and spreading "_دانش_/intellect" _(when the person is considered devoid of دانش by everyone)




			
				marrish said:
			
		

> (۴۔ اُ) حملہ آوری ؛ ...


 Any suggestions or comments?


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## Qureshpor

Today, on electronic media I heard a certain young "politician" whose spoken Urdu is not worth writing home about, used the phrase "NAB* gardii". So, marrish SaaHib, please let us know exactly what this "gardii" is all about.

* National Accountability Bureau (Obviously someone wrote his speech for him)


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## marrish

NAB=gawaah=wukalaa'=POLICE=  GHuNDe. GhunDa-gardii, x-gardii = banditry, perhaps in this sense. Or abuse.


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> NAB=GAWAAH=WUKALAA=POLICE=  GHUNDE. GhunDa-gardii, x-gardii = banditry, perhaps in this sense. Or abuse.


Thank you marrish SaaHib. It seems to me that your post 4 categorisation (from the dictionary) and my quotes from Platts and Dehkhoda may not be totally helpful since original distinct shades of meaning are being coalesced into one more recent general negative connotation. Examples of these are:

گواہ گردی، نیب گردی, پولیس گردی، وکلاء گردی، غنڈہ گردی etc

In post 5, I suggested for this negativity the word "malpractice" which may fit the scenario but perhaps it is too mild. You have come up with "banditry" and "abuse". For child abuse, would we say بچّہ گردی? ٰIn the "x-gardii" examples quoted, x is the agency of "gardii" whereas بچّہ is the recipient or object of "gardii". So, how about "misuse"

So, گواہ گردی would mean "the misuse of witnesses".

[By the way from all the above (as well as شاہ گردی، پٹھان گردی، نادر گردی) we can not remove the ی and get the equivalent of دہشت گرد، جہاں گرد، صحرا گرد]. Therefore these words belong to a different category.


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## marrish

Thank you for working out the categories.
In the meantime, here are some more: 
سینسر گردی 

ٹھپہ گردی 

جوتا گردی

دشت گردی 

تیزاب گردی 

طالب گردی 

ملّا گردی

احتساب کی] خبر گردی]

فوج گردی

طلایہ گردی

جمعیت گردی

سیاست گردی

جرنیل گردی


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## Qureshpor

Out of this word list, سینسر گردی، ٹھپّہ گردی، تیزاب گردی، مُلاّ گردی، فوج گردی، جرنیل گردی، سیاست گردی، خبرگردی، جمعیت گردی would come in the category of negative (misuse or similar word) category. 

دشت گردی، طلایہ گردی would fall in the category of صحرا گردی، جہاں گردی.

I don't know what جوتا گردی and طالب گردی mean.


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## marrish

There is an explanation of *جوتا* گردی to be found in a text by Rabia Kanwal Mirza پاکستان میں جوتا گردی کی تاریخ - ہم سب. I am quoting a few lines for this thread:

*غنڈہ گردی* تو ماضی بعید ہوئی ۔ جب بدمعاش قسم کے شخص، اونچی آواز میں بولنے والے، دوسروں کو تنگ کرنے والے سے محلے والے ڈرتے تھے یا اپنی عزت کو چپ ہو جاتے تھے، ایسے لوگ غنڈے کہلائے جاتے۔

ٹرینڈ بدلا اور باری آئی ایک اور *گردی* کی۔ *دہشت گردی*۔ جس کی لپیٹ میں پاکستان سمیت دنیا کا شاید ہر ملک ہی ہے۔ اس سے نجات پانے کے لیے ہر ممکن اقدامات کیے جا رہے ہیں۔[۔۔۔]۔

ساتھ ساتھ *پولیس گردی* بھی شروع ہو گئی ۔ شہر قائد میں تسلسل سے ایسے واقعات ہوئے، کہ پولیس مددگار ہونے کے بجائے ہٹ دھرمی دکھاتی نظر آئی ۔ پولیس بے گناہوں کو سرِعام دہشت گرد کا لیبل لگا کر جان سے مارنے لگی۔ [۔۔۔]۔

*وکلا گردی* کا بھی ایک دور تھا۔ جب وکیلوں کا دل چاہتا تھا، کسی کو بھی پکڑ کر زدوکوب کیا۔ اسمبلی احاطہ ہو یا کورٹ کا ایریا۔ ٹریفک کانسٹیبل ہوں یا عام شہری۔ وکلا برادری جب اپنی ضد پرآئی یا اختیار کا نشہ چڑھا تو *وکلا گردی کی*۔
[۔۔۔]
لاہور میں ایک کانفرنس کے دوران ایک صحافی نے وزیراعلیٰ پنجاب پر جوتا پھینکا۔
مارچ 2013 میں سابق صدر پرویز مشرف بھی *جوتا گردی *کا شکار ہوئے۔

طالب گردی would signify 'talibanization'.


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## Qureshpor

Thank you marrish SaaHib for detailed information on the concept of x-gardii and explanation of juutaa-gardii and taalib-gardii. It's now up to @iskander e azam SaaHib to come up with whatever English equivalent tickles his fancy for "gavaah-gardii". Icing on the cake would be if he were to find a formula which would help us deduce why we can have a "juutaa gard" but NOT a "GhunDah-gard".


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## marrish

Alfaaz said:


> ..."غنڈا گردی/thuggery or attack/invasion of lawyers" (similar to what marrish SaaHib seems to be pointing towards)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Farhang-e-Asifiyyah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (۴۔ اُ) حملہ آوری ؛ .
> 
> 
> 
> Any suggestions or comments?
Click to expand...

Actually this meaning seems to point to the semantic sphere within which the contemporary coinages are made.


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## marrish

Qureshpor said:


> Thank you marrish SaaHib for detailed information on the concept of x-gardii and explanation of juutaa-gardii and taalib-gardii. It's now up to @iskander e azam SaaHib to come up with whatever English equivalent tickles his fancy for "gavaah-gardii". Icing on the cake would be if he were to find a formula which would help us deduce why we can have a "juutaa gard" but NOT "GhunDah-gard".


I concur, QP SaaHib, that would be a treat!


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## iskander e azam

Friends,

I am currently defining گواہ گردی as "the corralling of false witnesses to a lawsuit or criminal case".

Best wishes,

Alex


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## Qureshpor

iskander e azam said:


> Friends,
> 
> I am currently defining گواہ گردی as "the corralling of false witnesses to a lawsuit or criminal case"...


If precision was the ultimate goal, what English equivalent would you come up with for گواہ گردی?


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## iskander e azam

PersoLatin said:


> Persian گردی does indeed have the meaning of 'turning', in terms like برگشتن it means turning back/around/upside down, e.g. بخت ‏برگشته….I don't know Urdu so I can't tell the context of گواہ گردی but as a guess based on the OP, I'd say 'turning into a witness'....





Qureshpor said:


> If precision was the ultimate goal, what English equivalent would you come up with for گواہ گردی?



In line with PL SaaHIb's post, I think the most natural English expression for گواہ گردی is 'turning witness', or here, 'turning state's witness' or the definition I gave in my previous. post. Context is everything. I have moved away from the idea that every word has a one to one correlation between languages.


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## marrish

I have found Lahore edition 1961 of the book mentioned in the OP which does have "گواہ گردی" as the title of one of its chapters. The archaisms in the text let me think it's at least a similar edition to @iskander e azam's.
IeA SaaHib, you can compare your text with the excerpt below.


> گواہ گردی
> 
> جب میری طرف سے قطعی مایوسی ہو گئی، تو محمد رفیع اور مولوی محمد تقی جو میری طرح سے قید میں تھے مخبر بنا کر رہا کر دیا۔ انہیں کے بیان سے بےچارہ محمدشفیع جس کو اس مقدمہ سے بہت تھوڑا تعلق تھا لاہور سے پکڑا آیا، پھر انہیں کی راہبری سے پارسن صاحب پٹنہ کو گیا۔ جہاں ایشری پرشاد نام ایک ملازم پولیس اور مسٹر ٹیل سابق کمشنر پٹنہ جو سنہ۱۸۵۴ء میں مولوی حمیداللہ صاحب وغیرہ موحدوں کو بےقصور نظربند کرنے کے قصور میں برخاست ہو گیا تھا، اس کے مددگار ہو گئے جن کی غیبت سے اُس نے مولوی یحیٰی علی صاحب اور مولوی عبدالرحیم صاحب و الٰہی بخش و میاں عبدالغفار کو گرفتار کر کے انبالہ کو بھیج دیا۔ اور پھر پارسن صاحب بنگال کو گیا۔ جہاں جگہ جگہ بہت لوگوں کو گرفتار کیا۔ اکثر لوگ تو لاکھوں ہزاروں روپیہ خرچ کر کے رہا ہو گئے اور بہتوں کو پھانسی دینے کی دھمکیاں دے کر گواہ بنا لیا۔ صرف ایک قاضی میاں جان ساکن کمارکھلی ثابت قدم رہے، جو گرفتار ہو کر انبالہ کو آئے۔ بصیرالدین و علاؤالدین سوداگرانِ دہلی اور بہت سے دوسرے لوگ دہلی سے بھی گرفتار ہو کر آئے۔ پشاور سے لے کر مشرقی و شمالی کنارۂ بنگال تک شاید کوئی مالدار مسلمان یا مولوی و نمازی باقی رہا جس کو ایک دفعہ پولیس نے پکڑ کر بقدر وسعت اُس کے اپنا ہاتھ گرم نہ کر لیا ہو۔ غرض اس جھوکے میں دسمبر سے اپریل تک بڑی پکڑ دھکڑ رہی صدہا آدمیوں کو ڈرایا اور سکھلا کر گواہ بنا لیا۔ اس پارسن گردی کے دورہ میں وہ بےچارہ حسینی تھانیسری بھی جب دہلی سے اشرفیاں لے کر لوٹا چلا آتا تھا، پکڑا گیا اور کل اشرفیاں ضبط کرا کے بےقصور ہمارے ساتھ ہی دائم الحبس ہو گیا۔ اس مقدمہ میں ہم نے دیکھا کہ بڑے بڑے صاحب لوگوں نے قانون و آئین سب طاق پر رکھ دیا تھا اور ایشری پرشاد وغیرہ ہندو مسلمان نے اپنے اپنے فائدے کے واسطے اس مقدمہ کو رسّی سے سانپ اور رائی سے پہاڑ بنا دیا اور ہم لوگوں کو بنا کر نیپولین یا مہدی سوڈانی سا فرضی دشمن ولتِ انگلشیہ کا ٹھہرا کر اپنا مطلب نکالنا چاہا چنانچہ ایشری پرشاد وغیرہ جو نہایت ادنیٰ عہدے پر تھے، ڈپٹی کلکٹر وغیرہ ہو گئے اور بڑی بڑی زمینداری اور جاگیر دھوکہ دے کر سرکار سے لے لی اور غزن خاں مخبر نے تو ایک محض جھوٹا قصہ اپنے بیٹے کے قافلہ کو بھیجنے کا گھڑ کر ایک دو گاؤں جا گیر سرکار سے لے لیے اور اخیر سنہ۱۸۶۳ء سے دس برس تک برابر ہندوستان کے مسلمانوں پر قیامت برپا  رکھی۔ صدہا مسلمان مارے خوف کے گھر بار چھوڑ کر عرب وغیرہ ملکوں میں جا بسے خودغرضوں اور خوشامدیوں اور ہمارے مدعی اور دشمنوں نے خوب دل کے چاؤ نکالے۔ دس برس تک اخباروں میں سوائے اس قصہ اور بحث کے کوئی دوسری بات کم ہوتی تھی۔ ایک محکمہ معہ گواہ شاہدوں کے اس دار و گیر کے واسطے برسوں تیار رہا۔ جس کو چاہا پکڑ لیا اور جو چاہا رشوت لے لی اور جس نے نہ دی اُس پر اُن معمولی گواہوں سے گواہی دلا کر دائم الحبس کر دیا۔


Apparently the author and his mates were on the run being wanted by a certain Captain Parson(s).



iskander e azam said:


> However, other than in the title he does not use this word again in the chapter.


What does the author write after a couple of lines under this title? – اس پارسن گردی کے دورہ میں !


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## Qureshpor

Thank you marrish SaaHib for introducing us to "پارسن گردی". The problem is the degree of "severity" involved within each "گردی". For example نادر گردی would, I suspect, be much more severe than پارسن گردی. So, whatever English equivalent we are able to come with for گردی needs to be such a word that is independent of the severity, if you follow my train of thought. I was hoping IeA SaaHib being a mother tongue English speaker who is also well versed in Urdu, might be able to come up with something that neatly fits the Urdu suffix. Your suggestion of "abuse" I think came pretty close to the mark but we can't say "Parson abuse".


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## marrish

You're very welcome, it took much trouble to finally access the proper text but finally the context is here. We can clearly see that in this text _gardi_ is being used thrice: gawaah-gardii, gardii, paarsan-gardii. The author is actively creating impromptu neologisms with -gardii. I can discern a sketch of these meanings (also daurah/daur dauraa) in the Farhang entry no. 4 and it seems this usage is not so very recent (the book published in 1885).



Qureshpor said:


> I was hoping IeA SaaHib being a mother tongue English speaker who is also well versed in Urdu, might be able to come up with something that neatly fits the Urdu suffix.


Yes, QP SaaHib. Any input from him and other persons can be really profitable to the discussion. It's easier for them to come up with English suggestions than for me. But IeA SaaHib's concern is now with the context:


iskander e azam said:


> In line with PL SaaHIb's post, I think the most natural English expression for گواہ گردی is 'turning witness', or here, 'turning state's witness' or the definition I gave in my previous. post. Context is everything. I have moved away from the idea that every word has a one to one correlation between languages.


which for the linguistic reasons is ..... "Parson(s)-gardii".

The aim is not finding a one-fits-all suffix in English for x-_gardii_ because this discussion has at least proven so far that this suffix in Urdu itself has at least 4 main meanings/usages (see #4), but we are still in the process of exploring the possibilities of doing so for the "recent" meanings.

Very early on in the discussion I said that "turning witness" or "turning state's witness" was wrong. In my opinion it is wrong both from the English (not certain) and the Urdu (quite certain) perspective, since "گواہ گردی" and "turning witness" simply _mean_ two different things.

@iskander e azam, if you were to put "turning witness" as this chapter's title, would it match to its contents?
Does it find any mention in the Urdu dictionary quoted in post #4?


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## iskander e azam

marrish said:


> @iskander e azam, if you were to put "turning witness" as this chapter's title, would it match to its contents? Does it find any mention in the Urdu dictionary quoted in post #4?



Friends, 

We have ventured far indeed. The greatest Philosopher of the 20th Century: Ludwig von Wittgenstein denied that the meaning of a word was a halo around it but that 'meaning is use'. I will let him speak for himself.

@marrish, the text you have discovered matches the one I am using.

I for my part am very happy to render گواہ گردی as 'turning state's witness' for the title chapter.

Best wishes,

Alex


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## marrish

iskander e azam said:


> @marrish, the text you have discovered matches the one I am using.
> 
> I for my part am very happy to render گواہ گردی as 'turning state's witness' for the title chapter.


Thanks for the confirmation, I'm glad we're on the same page now.

Did Maulaanaa SaaHib turn the witness of the state?


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## iskander e azam

marrish said:


> Did Maulaanaa SaaHib turn the witness of the state?



marrish SaaHib,

Of course, مولانا صاحب did not turn state's witness but his own brother gave false testimony against him!


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## marrish

In this case, your title implies exactly the opposite.


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## iskander e azam

marrish said:


> In this case, your title implies exactly the opposite.



marrish SaaHIb,

I think in English, turning state witness holds both the meanings of becoming a state witness and getting a state witness to recant. 

Is it this to which you are referring?

Best wishes,

Alex


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