# All IIR Languages: Seek knowledge from the cradle to the grave



## Alijsh

Please translate it to the languages you know. Here it is in Persian:

ز گهواره تا گور دانش بجوی
ze gahvâre tâ gur dâneŝ bejuy


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## BP.

Urdu:
The standard way to say that particular saying of Hazrat Ali is:
حصول علم کرو مھد سے لحد تک
_HuSool i 3ilm karo mehed sai leHed tak_

But there could be many other ways to put it, for example by just modifying the last word in the Farsi sentence you quoted.


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## bakshink

I don't know if there is a saying in Hindi expressing this thought but it can be translated as:
Palne sey kabr tak gyan kee talash karein or 'kee talash mein rahein' or 'gyan talashein'.


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## panjabigator

BG, what does <HuSūl> mean?

edit: Bakshink, that's interesting that you used <talāsh> as a verb.  I didn't think that was done much in India.


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## bakshink

Thanks PG, The very fact that I have used it is enough a proof that it's fairly common.


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## BP.

gator, its from _HaaSil karna_ - to get.

And _talaashna_ is an example of how Hindi develops some verbs for which Urdu suffixes _karna_ to complete their meaning. In this case, _talaash karna_.

I would've used _k.hojna_ instead in Hindi.


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## panjabigator

Ah, thank you!  It seems so obvious now...


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## Faylasoof

The Urdu version by BP above is one way you’ll see this saying, and as he himself alludes to there are other ways too. In fact, this together with some of the ones below would be considered literary styles often utilised by us in matters such as these. 

Depending on factors like the level of education of your audience, and the kind of effect you intend to have on them, you have at your disposal a number of versions, apart from the one above. Some of these are:


گهواره سے قبر تك علم حاصل كرو
gahvaare se qabr tak ‘ilm HaaSil karo
(And its permutation:
  علم حاصل كرو گهواره سے قبر تك
‘ilm HaaSil karo gahvaare se qabr tak)

Or
از گهواره تا قبرعلم حاصل كرو
az gahvaarah taa qabr ‘ilm HaaSil karo

etc., etc.

Using this version <حصول علم کرو محد سے لحد تک> would require added explanation. For the general audience words like <لحد laHad>, < مهد mahad> might pose problems as they are part of our literary vocabulary and not common speech, so some will not understand them. Also, I prefer <علم حاصل كرو> to <حصول علم کرو>.

In everyday speech we normally use < جُھولا jhoolaa> / < پالنا paalnaa> instead of < مهدmahad>for a cradle. [The former (جُھولا jhoolaa) is also used for a <swing>.] 

Also, < گور gor – in Urdu the “o” sounds like that in “pole” and *not* in “pool”>, is used in poetry and literary prose but much less in common speech. (When used in common speech, it is usually seen in terms like < گور و كفن gor o kafan = grave and shroud> 

So, yet another version of this saying can be:

پالنے \ جھولے سے قبر تك علم حاصل كرو
paalne / jhoole se qabr tak ‘ilm HaaSil karo  

When I first signed up for this forum I included the Arabic original: 

أطلب العلم من المهد إلى الحد

But I kept getting the warning that my signature had too many characters and I should reduce them. Even getting rid of the diacritics didn’t help, so I ended up removing the Arabic altogether, leaving the rest.

Some of you will notice that we are using the verb < حاصل كرنا Haasil karnaa = to acquire > instead of < طلب كرنا_ T_alab karnaa = to demand / seek>, although in the original the imperative of the Arabic verb < طلب_T_alaba> is used. This is because we almost always express the idea of seeking or gaining knowledge by terms such as < حاصل HaaSil and حُصول HuSool>. However, in Urdu a student is always a < طالب علم Taalib-e-‘ilm>.


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## BP.

I believe I misspelt mehed above. Its corrected now.

As F says, mehed isn't a common word, but I've only seen the word _jhoola_ used at Edhi child-drop-off points, otherwise the usual words are _pa.ng.hoRa_-پنگھوڑا- and _gehwaaraa_-گھوارا. Heck, more common are cradle and cot!

A comment on F's example:از گهواره تا قبرعلم حاصل كرو
As an aside information, from what I know, in Urdu we often do away with the _az_, since its presence is implied in the _taa_, e.g. _aik taa do bajai_... instead of _az/ze aik taa do bajai_.


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## panjabigator

I have a feeling we have discussed the <az> before.  I'll look it up on the forum.

What does <tā> mean?

I am not too sure of the Panjabi vocabulary, so I'll look to Bakshink jī for corrections and/or suggestions.

<jhūle to.n qabr tak vidyā nū.n prāpt karo>

Questions:
1) What do you think of <vidyā> for <gyān>
2) What are the words for "cot" and "cradle" in Panjabi?  
3) I am unaware if <qabr> (most likely pronounced as <kabar> in Panjabi) is a _pakka_ Panjabi word.  
4) Does <prāpt> work in this context of aquisition?  I think that it might, and as Faylasoof miyā.n suggested, this phrase can be translated in numerous directions.  
5) How would you pronounce <prāpt>?  Does the conjunct <pt> get separated into <prāpat>?  

Looking forward to further discussion and <tabādlah e xyāl>.  How else would I be spending my Sunday?

ਬਕਸ਼ਿੰਕ ਜੀ, ਮੈਨੂੰ ਹਲੇ ਤੱਕ ਸਮਾਂ ਨਹੀਂ ਮਿਲਿਅ ਕਿ ਮੈਂ ਦੂਜੇ ਧਾਗੇ ਵਿਚ ਜੁਅਾਬ ਦੇਵਾਂ। ਸੁਅਾਲ ਬੜਾ ਚੰਗਾ ਹੈ।


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## BP.

panjabigator said:


> What does <tā> mean?



If we're talking Urdu, _tak_-تک-, _taa_-تا- and _talak_-تلک- are the words, in decreasing frequency of occurence, for till, until, to the extent etc.


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## Faylasoof

BelligerentPacifist said:


> As F says, mahad isn't a common word, but I've only seen the word _jhoola_ used at Edhi child-drop-off points, otherwise the usual words are _pa.ng.hoRa_-پنگھوڑا- and _gehwaaraa_-گھوارا. Heck, more common are cradle and cot!



I'm quite surprise at this. Most children use a swing of sorts so the word <jhoolaa> cannot go out of the daily vocabulary. The fact that Edhi child drop-off points are in the news also means one cannot be unaware of what this word means. Even the word <paalnaa> cannot be forgotten as many still watch Bollywood films and who can forget <chandan kaa paalnaa, 1967> and the ZeeTV 2001 series <chandan kaa paalnaa resham kii dorii>. While the use of a word like <gahwaaraa> is an example of <شستہ shustah> Urdu. Most ordinary people will be more familiar with the other two synonyms than this.



> A comment on F's example:از گهواره تا قبرعلم حاصل كرو
> As an aside information, from what I know, in Urdu we often do away with the _az_, since its presence is implied in the _taa_, e.g. _aik taa do bajai_... instead of _az/ze aik taa do bajai_.



Telling time is different! I think dropping <az> in the expression <از گهواره تا قبرعلم حاصل كرو> will be a big mistake! That would be a serious grammatical error. If people are using it like this then it shows their lack of understanding of the basic rules of grammar. It is simply wrong!

... and one point BP. The word _<tak_-تک> I hear and read all the time in Urdu so it cannot be on the decline. It would be as if we start to abandon  <till & until etc.> in English. I can understand <_talak_ تلک> going off. I remember we had a discussion about these before.


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## bakshink

Questions:
  1) What do you think of <vidyā> for <gyān>
 Ans: Vidya is education/skill and Gyan is knowledge.

  2) What are the words for "cot" and "cradle" in Panjabi?  
 Ans: After reading BP's input  "_pa.ng.hoRa"_ it's come to my mind that word for cradle/cot in Punjabi is PanghhuRRa. (RR as in "PapaRR" or PaRR- read, ThhapaRR- Slap).

  3) I am unaware if <qabr> (most likely pronounced as <kabar> in Panjabi) is a _pakka_ Panjabi word.  
 Ans: Yes in Punjabi it is "Kabar".

4) Does <prāpt> work in this context of aquisition? 
Ans.:Acquire- v.t. hasil karna; pa laina; labbhna; khattna; milna; kamauna; hatth auna; parapat karna.

5) How would you pronounce <prāpt>?  Does the conjunct <pt> get separated into <prāpat>? 
 Ans:<prāpat> Is spoken as parapat.

ਪੀ. ਜੀ. ਜੀ ਤੁਸੀ ਕਿਹੜੇ ਧਾਗੇ ਦੀ ਗਲ ਕਰ ਰਹੇ ਹੋ ?


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## BP.

Oh yes you can't rule out _paalna_, sorry I missed it out.



Faylasoof said:


> ... and one point BP. The word _<tak_-تک> I hear and read all the time in Urdu so it cannot be on the decline. It would be as if we start to abandon  <till & until etc.> in English. I can understand <_talak_ تلک> going off.



You totally misread it. _tak_ cannot be on the decline without a substitute cropping up. If you read again what I said, it meant_ tak_ is used more frequently than _ta_, which is used more frequently than _talak_.


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## Faylasoof

BelligerentPacifist said:


> Oh yes you can't rule out _paalna_, sorry I missed it out.



I don't think you can't rule out _jhoolaa_ either. BTW, we never use  _pa.ng.hoRa_-پنگھوڑا. It is either _jhoolaa_ or _paalnaa_ or _gahwaaraa._ The latter term is mostly reserved for the item used for non-personal, cultural / religious events, so has a deeper meaning for us.




> You totally misread it. _tak_ cannot be on the decline without a substitute cropping up. If you read again what I said, it meant_ tak_ is used more frequently than _ta_, which is used more frequently than _talak_.



I see! You meant this then:



BelligerentPacifist said:


> If we're talking Urdu, _tak_-تک-, _taa_-تا- and _talak_-تلک- are the words, in decreasing order of frequency of occurence, for till, until, to the extent etc.



I was wondering what the alternative was!


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## BP.

F, in the word 'wordreference', e, r and c occur in decreasing frequencies i.e they are in reverse-sorted-order.

So when I say
"..._tak_-تک-, _taa_-تا- and _talak_-تلک- are the words, in decreasing order of frequency of occurence..."
it means tak is used more often than taa, which in turn is more often used than talak.

Sorry for waking up the thread, I was ill last week and didn't feel like posting here.


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## Faylasoof

Sorry to know you were unwell! 

Oh! I knew what you meant originally in your post # 14 but thought I'd add < order of> in my post # 15 just to clarify, esp. for newcomers unfamiliar with these details.

BTW, one still hears talak-تلک  in Karachi at least, and not just from 1st generation migrants from India but also their progeny. In certain areas of the city this word is still alive as I’ve heard from colleagues and relations who happen to be on charity visits to places like Nazimabad, Laalookhet etc. in northern Karachi. There you have / had quite a concentration of native Urduphones originally from UP & Bihar, perhaps even Deccan.


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