# The Lord's Prayer, for an English choir



## Scholiast

Greetings everyone (привет)

I know only a little Russian, though I have sung some Russian church music, and I can read Cyrillic script. In the next few weeks I am going to be asked to help an English-speaking choir with the pronunciation of the Lord's Prayer, for singing in church, in a beautiful little setting by Rimsky-Korsakov. Any help will be warmly received.

Of course the meaning is familiar and clear, and mostly, R-K's arrangement brings out skilfully the natural stresses of the language, but I wonder if some native speakers could help me with a couple of questions? (In my transliterated words below, I am using the musical, rather than the linguistic, division of the syllables and vowels.)

Отче наш, Иже еси на небесех!
Да святится имя Твое,
да приидет   Царствие Твое,
да будет воля Твоя,
яко на небеси и на земли.                 5
Хлеб наш   насущный даждь нам днесь;
и остави нам долги наша,
якоже и мы оставляем   должником нашим;
и не введи нас во искушение,
но избави нас от лукаваго.              10

1. l. 1: am I right in believing that there are gentle stresses on "i-zhé ye-sí" 
2. l. 2: on which syllable does the stress lie in "svya-ti-tsya"? "svyá-ti-tsya" or "svya-tí-tsya"?
3. l. 3: is "pri-yídet" roughly right?
4. l. 5: "na-sú-shch-ni-y" - again, is the stress right?
5. l. 7:  "ó-sta-vi" or "o-stá-vi"?  "dá-lgi" or "da-lgí", please?
6. l. 8: "o-sta-vlyá-yem"?, and "da-lzhni-kóm"?
7. l. 10: "í-zba-vi" or "i -zbá-vi"?

My thanks for any help offered.


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## LilianaB

Scholiast said:


> Greetings everyone (привет)
> 
> I know only a little Russian, though I have sung some Russian church music, and I can read Cyrillic script. In the next few weeks I am going to be asked to help an English-speaking choir with the pronunciation of the Lord's Prayer, for singing in church, in a beautiful little setting by Rimsky-Korsakov. Any help will be warmly received.
> 
> Of course the meaning is familiar and clear, and mostly, R-K's arrangement brings out skilfully the natural stresses of the language, but I wonder if some native speakers could help me with a couple of questions? (In my transliterated words below, I am using the musical, rather than the linguistic, division of the syllables and vowels.)
> 
> Отче наш, Иже еси на небесех!
> Да святится имя Твое,
> да приидет   Царствие Твое,
> да будет воля Твоя,
> яко на небеси и на земли.                 5
> Хлеб наш   насущный даждь нам днесь;
> и остави нам долги наша,
> якоже и мы оставляем   должником нашим;
> и не введи нас во искушение,
> но избави нас от лукаваго.              10
> 
> 1. l. 1: am I right in believing that there are gentle stresses on "i-zhé ye-sí"
> 2. l. 2: on which syllable does the stress lie in "svya-ti-tsya"? "*svyá-ti-tsya*" or "svya-tí-tsya"?
> 3. l. 3: is "pri-yídet" roughly right?
> 4. l. 5: "*na-sú-shch-ni-y*" - again, is the stress right?
> 5. l. 7:  "*ó-sta-vi*" or "o-stá-vi"?  "*dá-lg*i" or "da-lgí", please?
> 6. l. 8: "*o-sta-vlyá-yem"*?, and "*da-lzhni-kóm*"?
> 7. l. 10: "í-zba-vi" or "*i -zbá-vi*"?
> 
> My thanks for any help offered.



I think this is about right, the bold alternatives, but please wait for other opinions as well.  The first one, I am not sure what you meant by the subtle stress. I am not too good with describing sounds, but I think this is all about right.


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## Maroseika

и́же еси́ 
святи́тся
прии́дет
насу́щный
оста́ви ... долги́
оставля́ем ... должнико́м
изба́ви


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## Syline

1) Иже еси
2) святится 
3) приидет
4) насущный
5) остави... долги
6) оставляем... должником 
7) избави 

Stressed syllables are green.


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## Maroseika

Syline said:


> Stressed syllables are green.



We have an option here to show stresses directly (switch editor to WYSIWIG mode and use symbols from the rolling out menu on the very right).


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## Scholiast

Dear Ladies and gentlemen,

Marosika and Sylina - also to another Russian Foreaster who has communicated by PM: heartfelt thanks.

That has all been very helpful.

I love the Russian Orthodox music, there is such a rich repertoire there of music that is hardly ever known, let alone sung/performed, in western Europe, and I feel evangelical about what the Russian Church has to offer.


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## LilianaB

I think the best thing would be if you consulted a Russian Orthodox Church. They will tell you exactly how to sing the words, how to pronounce each word the way it should be pronounced in liturgical singing. It is not ordinary, everyday Russian.


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## Maroseika

Don't scare the topicstarter and complicate the issue, Liliana, these words, of course, are not everyday Russian, but still very well known to any more or less educated Russian native.


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## LilianaB

I am not trying to scare anyone: I just wanted the performance to be perfect. This is not contemporary Russian.


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## morzh

LilianaB said:


> I am not trying to scare anyone: I just wanted the performance to be perfect. This is not contemporary Russian.




I have to agree with Maroseika - you are complicating it. It is simple enough. No need bothering consulting a priest.


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## Syline

Maroseika said:


> We have an option here to show stresses directly (switch editor to WYSIWIG mode and use symbols from the rolling out menu on the very right).


Thanks for the tip. Правда, немного смущает, что ударения ставятся не над самими буквами.


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## Maroseika

Syline said:


> Thanks for the tip. Правда, немного смущает, что ударения ставятся не над самими буквами.



К сожалению, не во всех браузерах ударения видны правильно. Немного недоработан редактор этого форума.


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## Scholiast

Renewed thanks to everyone, and apologies to Maroseika and Syline for mis-spelling their names in my last post.

We had a first read-/sing-through in practice this morning, and, слава Богу, the crew seemed not only to cope, but even to enjoy it. One little question remains: Maroseika (#5) would stress долги́, whereas Syline (#6) prefers дóлги. Is this a matter of regional variation, or is it simply that the syllables in this word are more or less equally (or neutrally) stressed? Rimsky's setting rather suggests the latter.

Счастливое Рождество! - though I am aware that it is a little later for you all than for us in western Christendom.


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## LilianaB

Thank you very much, but you would have to say: С Рождеством., if you wanted to wish somebody else a Merry Christmas, and impress them with perfect Russian.


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## Explorer41

By the way, why "должнико́м" and not "должника́м" (in the same verse)? It should be Dative!

EDIT: Liliana, no need for such a change, the greetings may be just transformed into the Genitive case: "Счастливого Рождества!" That's all.


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## Scholiast

Thanks to you too, Explorer41.



> why "должнико́м" and not "должника́м"



I had already understood this as a dative (plural) for "sinners"/"trespasssers", but this (должником) was the Cyrillic version I had before me in the musical score before I transliterated it for my choir. Is this actually a grammatical error, or possibly just an example of older orthography? It's quite common in English ecclesiastical language too to find spellings that would not today be normally used, e.g. "shew" for "show", though the pronunciation remains the same.


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## Maroseika

Scholiast said:


> Is this actually a grammatical error, or possibly just an example of older orthography?



This is not an error and not just older orthography, this is from Church Slavonic (like остави instead of оставь, долги наша instead of долги наши, на земли instead of на земле and so on).


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## Scholiast

Maroseika, you are a gem.

Thank you once again for this clarification. So I suppose in Church Slavonic, it's a bit like using the English forms "Our Father, who *art* in heaven, hallowed be *thy* name, *thy* will be done..." &c.

I want to get this sung as an anthem at the Russian Christmas - and then have something more ambitious in mind for the Orthodox Easter next year. I shall certainly be back in touch!


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## Scholiast

привет everyone.

I am acutely conscious that this may be "bumping" in the Thread, but may I please ask for one more piece of guidance?



> Maroseika (#5) would stress долги́, whereas Syline  (#6) prefers дóлги. Is this a matter of regional variation, or is it  simply that the syllables in this word are more or less equally (or  neutrally) stressed?



In all other respects, I have found the answers here outstanding and very helpful.

Thank you all so much


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## Syline

*Scholiast
*Well, in all sources concerning the topic I saw "д*О*лги". So I think this is the only right variant.


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## Maroseika

До́лги is the only correct. I was wrong.


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## morzh

probably because it is in Curch Slavonic.

"И остави нам д*о́*лги наша".

But in today's translation it is "и прости нам долги наши", and I'm sure it will be "долг*и́*".

Still, those that are sung are usually using old texts, so it is "д*о́*лги наша".


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