# EN: can have <past participle> - can + past infinitive



## damyoro

Bonjour 
C'est ma première fois de participer à ce forum. j'apprends l'anglais et c'est à ce sujet que je pose cette question. Le modal can a trois principaux emplois: capacité/aptitude physique intellectuelle (I can drive a car), les permissions (Can I borrow you car?) dans les interrogations et avec certains verbes de perception (I can see). 

Quel sens peut-on donner à can + past infinitive. Ex: I don't know where she can have gone? 

[...]

Merci d'avance pour toute contribution


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## Thomas1

Je pense que possibillité/probabillité.

Tom

PS : Bienvenue sur le forum.


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## Mlle Smith

Btw, you would say:  I don't know where she COULD have gone.

...never "can have gone".


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## geostan

Sure you can!


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## Mlle Smith

I don't know if it's a difference in Canadian/American dialects, but I can't imagine "I don't know where she can have gone" being gramamatically correct.

Can is discussing the ability while could references the possibility (and also the ability, depending on the context). 

I tried looking online, but the only sources for this that I was able to find were from people that didn't speak English as a first language, or from UK texts.  I'm actually curious as to whether or not any native English speaker (preferably from the US) would see this as a correct sentence.


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## Mezzofanti

In England "I don't know where she _can_ have gone" is idiomatically correct and usually implies "I don't know where she is" in the present.
"I don't know where she _could_ have gone" implies a doubt about the movements of a person in the past, who is not at present missing.


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## Thomas1

Does that mean that using _can_ implying possibility/probability is incorrect to you?

Even in such cases as:
_Such things can happen._?

Tom


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## geostan

Mlle Smith said:


> I don't know if it's a difference in Canadian/American dialects, but I can't imagine "I don't know where she can have gone" being gramamatically correct.
> 
> Can is discussing the ability while could references the possibility (and also the ability, depending on the context).
> 
> I tried looking online, but the only sources for this that I was able to find were from people that didn't speak English as a first language, or from UK texts.  I'm actually curious as to whether or not any native English speaker (preferably from the US) would see this as a correct sentence.



I'm a native speaker. Are you telling me that you have never heard sentences like Where can they have gone? with the meaning "I wonder where they have gone."?

Being right at the Canadian American border, I doubt that there is any difference in this usage between Canada and the U.S.


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## Mlle Smith

Mezzofanti said:


> In England "I don't know where she _can_ have gone" is idiomatically correct and usually implies "I don't know where she is" in the present.
> "I don't know where she _could_ have gone" implies a doubt about the movements of a person in the past, who is not at present missing.


 
That's really interesting...in the latter situation, I would simply say, "I don't know where she went" or "I haven't a clue as to where she was..."


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## Mlle Smith

geostan said:


> Are you telling me that you have never heard sentences like Where can they have gone? with the meaning "I wonder where they have gone."?
> 
> Being right at the Canadian American border, I doubt that there is any difference in this usage between Canada and the U.S.


 
Yes, exactly.  I've never heard an American say such a thing...I'm sure it's possible.  But since you mentioned that you're right at the Canada/US border, I'm assuming that it might be regional?


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## Mlle Smith

Thomas1 said:


> Does that mean that using _can_ implying possibility/probability is incorrect to you?
> 
> Even in such cases as:
> _Such things can happen._?
> 
> Tom


 

Well, in your sentence, you're speaking of the ability.  We often say "these things can happen".   It's speaking of the ability, more so than the possibility...If we were speaking of the possibility, I would likely say "may", instead of "can".  I'm running late for an appointment, so that's my short response.


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## ascoltate

There are a lot of differences across the Canadian-American border no matter how close you are. Take "zee"/"zed" for example...
That being said "can have" sounds absolutely fine to me and I am American- it certainly doesn't sound particularly Canadian (?!) to me (like, e.g., "washroom" or "grade nine")-- it just sounds maybe a little more colloquial and possibly a bit old-fashioned.
Also, it sounds much better in "Where can it/she/he have gone?" than in any other structure I can think of. Is that perhaps a fixed expression??


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## Mlle Smith

I actually think so, because when I read your sentence "when can she have gone", that sounded perfectly fine to me and I read straight through the sentence without that awkward feeling you get when something just "doesn't sound right".  It may be a fixed expression...maybe it's just one of those quirky things about the English language.


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## Mezzofanti

"Where can she have gone?", it seems to me, is an idiom.  It is very often intensified to: "wherever can she have gone?" or "where on earth can she have gone?".

It may be helpful to replace "have gone" by the verb "to be" which also allows comparison with French.   The straightforward question "Where is she? Où est-elle?" is likely to be strengthened, if the speaker is anxious or exasperated, to "Where can she be? Où peut-elle être ?"
"Where can she have gone?" simply adds the idea of movement.  French wouldn't like "où peut-elle être partie ?" I think, but would accept "Où peut-elle s'être cachée ?"


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## Thomas1

Mlle Smith said:


> Well, in your sentence, you're speaking of the ability. We often say "these things can happen". It's speaking of the ability, more so than the possibility...If we were speaking of the possibility, I would likely say "may", instead of "can". I'm running late for an appointment, so that's my short response.


Well, I was rather trying to imply that there is a possibility of their taking place. 


Tom


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## geostan

ascoltate said:


> There are a lot of differences across the Canadian-American border no matter how close you are. Take "zee"/"zed" for example...
> That being said "can have" sounds absolutely fine to me and I am American- it certainly doesn't sound Canadian (?!) to me (like, e.g., "washroom" or "grade nine")-- it just sounds maybe a little more colloquial and possibly a bit old-fashioned.
> Also, it sounds much better in "Where can it/she/he have gone?" than in any other structure I can think of. Is that perhaps a fixed expression??



I'm well aware there are many differences between Canadian and American English. I spend 5 months a year in the U.S. If you'll look at my original comment, I said "this usage." I was referring to this concept, not English in general.

Secondly, I assume you meant to say "It doesn't sound "particularly" Canadian as opposed "I don't think Canadians say that."

Getting back to the original question, I agree with the second post that there is a notion of possibility in this use of "can."  I suspect, but have no reference work to check, that "can" is used in an direct or indirect question, whereas "may" would be used in a corresponding statement.

They may have gone to the park.
Can they have gone to the park?

Cheers!


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## chocolateer

Mezzofanti said:


> In England "I don't know where she _can_ have gone" is idiomatically correct and usually implies "I don't know where she is" in the present.
> "I don't know where she _could_ have gone" implies a doubt about the movements of a person in the past, who is not at present missing.



I don't think I've ever heard the phrase _"I don't know where she can have gone"._ I'm as natural an english speaker as it gets, and it sounds totally wrong to my ears (not that I wouldn't understand it if I heard it).

I would just say _"I don't know where she could be" _to imply that I don't know where she is.

Regional differences!


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## Mezzofanti

chocolateer said:


> I don't think I've ever heard the phrase _"I don't know where she can have gone"._ I'm as natural an english speaker as it gets, and it sounds totally wrong to my ears (not that I wouldn't understand it if I heard it).


 
Dear Chocolateer,

I was born and brought up in Hillingdon, went to school in the Harrow area, university at Cambridge, and have generally been using English for the last 43 years, twenty of them spent working in publishing and translating. You may be _as_ natural an English speaker as I am, but I doubt whether you are _more_ so. And I maintain that the disputed expression is very natural English. The identical expression, with "he" instead of "she" is also used by American novelist "Henry James". Maybe it sounds funny to you because you have chocolate-ears  Just a joke!

Regards,

Mezzo


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## Mlle Smith

chocolateer said:


> I don't think I've ever heard the phrase _"I don't know where she can have gone"._ I'm as natural an english speaker as it gets, and it sounds totally wrong to my ears (not that I wouldn't understand it if I heard it).
> 
> I would just say _"I don't know where she could be" _to imply that I don't know where she is.
> 
> Regional differences!


 
I'm seriously beginning to think that this is a matter or regional differences, really.  So strange!


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## Thomas1

Here's something that may be of interest:


> can
> [...]
> *2. **a. *Used to indicate possibility or probability: I wonder if my long lost neighbor can still be alive. Such things can and do happen.
> *b. *Used to indicate that which is permitted, as by conscience or feelings: One can hardly blame you for being upset.
> *c. *Used to indicate probability or possibility under the specified circumstances: They can hardly have intended to do that.
> 
> Source


Thus, nothing wrong with _can_ used for probability and/or possibiliy. 

Tom


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## Mlle Smith

"My neighbor cannot possibly be alive."

If I heard this sentence I would feel prompted to ask why this cannot be.  What is preventing the neighbor from being ABLE to live/be alive. 

In the second definition, 2.a. it says it's used to indicate possibility/probability.  But then it offers two sentence that indicate an ability...not a probability. 

The USAGE NOTE (sorry for the caps) at the bottom explains what I mentioned earlier:  _Generations of grammarians and teachers have insisted that can should be used only to express the capacity to do something, and that may must be used to express permission._

Source


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## pyan

This is a good source.  I would like to quote something from further down in the same paragraph.  





> As part of the spoken language, this use of _can_ is perfectly acceptable. This is especially true for negative questions...


It goes on to point out there are conflicting views about the use of "can" to express permission.

It is important to know there are different schools of thought on this, and now we do.


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