# There are different forms of the letters



## Grammatiker

Hey there, everyone.

I'm in Beginning Arabic I this semester, and as I am prone to doing, I like to be a few steps ahead of what we're learning in class. That said, I've been working on my own sentences, and I wanted to make sure I was writing them grammatically.


...باللغة عربية، يوجد شتى شكال الحروف

."في بداية الكلمة نكتب "جـ"، لكن في نهاية الكلمة نكتب "ـج
​


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## إسكندراني

That seems fine, except يوجد should be in the feminine since it refers to شكال, and في feels more correct than بـ in this context, so say  في اللغة العربية، توجد شتّى شكال الحروف. مثلاً، في بداية الكلمة نكتب «جـ»، و في نهايتها نكتب «ـج».ـ
I'm not sure شكال is a real word, though I do recognise it. I usually us أشكال. But you're doing well!


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## Grammatiker

Thanks for the reply! I spoke with my Arabic instructor today, and she helped me correct the proper sentence (that is, if I remembered what she wrote correctly):



في اللغة العربية، يوجد أشكال مختاف الحروف. على سَبِيل المثال، نكتب في البداية الكلمة جـ، لكن نكتب    في النهاية الكلمة ـج
​


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## إسكندراني

Grammatiker said:


> في اللغة العربية، توجد أشكال مختلفة للحروف. على سَبِيل المثال، نكتب في بداية الكلمة جـ، لكن نكتب    في نهاية الكلمة ـج
> ​


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## Grammatiker

Why would you need to write توجد? I mean to say 'there is/are ...'. I wasn't taught that this word had to agree.

And why the ل before الحروف?

Lastly, while I did make a typo with مختلف, why the ة at the end when شكّل is masculine (at least I think)?

Thanks.


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## إسكندراني

شَكْلٌ is indeed masculine but its plural أشكال follows a rule where the plural becomes feminine. Hence use the feminine of verb يوجد which is توجد, and add the ـة.
As for the لـ it's to indicate possession; I understand that you're attempting to render from English that 'letters have different forms'.


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## Grammatiker

Okay, we haven't covered the plural in any substance. I didn't know that rule.

I'm confused about يوجد though. In class, we use it as a simple word whenever we want to say "there is/are ...". We never learned any sort of conjugation or that it was even a verb.

And I'm trying to render more specifically "There are different forms of the letters," so I'm not sure the use of a possessive marker is good. We haven't learned the prefix ل ... where can I read more about it?


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## AndyRoo

I agree with Iskandaraani's translation:
يوجد/توجد  needs to agree with the noun.
The prefix ل indicates possession - so it is appropriate here:  "forms of the letters" (of=possession).


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## Grammatiker

I see. Interesting.

Why is it that construct state wouldn't work here? أشكال الحروف - letter forms/forms of the letters. What's the difference in usage between this and using construct state, such as in جامعة دمشق?


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## AndyRoo

أشكال الحروف means "*the* forms of the letters" but you want to say "forms of the letters". To say this you can use ل :
 أشكال للحروف


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## Grammatiker

So would it be ungrammatical to write توجد أشكال مختلفة الحروف, perhaps like writing "there are different the forms of the letters" in English? Arabic construct state, the use of the definite article and now this new possessional prefix make for something of a confusing topic.

I guess what I mean is, can one of you help me to understand the real syntactic difference between, say:


أشكال الحروف
الأشكال الحروف
أشكال للحروف
الأشكال للحروف

and so on. It seems like adding an adjective, such as the مختلفة in my example, changes the rules as well.


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## AndyRoo

Grammatiker said:


> So would it be ungrammatical to write توجد أشكال مختلفة الحروف, perhaps like writing "there are different the forms of the letters" in English?


Yes this is ungrammatical. In the idaafa the adjective comes after the last noun - so it would have to be أشكال الحروف المختلفة. But even توجد أشكال الحروف المختلفة sounds strange to me - I think because توجد is usually only used with indefinite nouns.


Grammatiker said:


> أشكال الحروف = the forms of the letters
> الأشكال الحروف = ungrammatical
> أشكال للحروف = forms of the letters
> الأشكال للحروف = the forms of the letters (but better to use idaafa in this case)


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## Grammatiker

I'm beginning to understand. So, if I wanted to say "the different forms of the letters" as a noun phrase, I would have to use the iDaafa:

أشكال الحروف المختلفة

But to make a statement that requires indefiniteness, like "there are different forms of the letters" I would have to write:

أشكال مختلفة للحروف 

using the prefix لـ to indicate that it is the [different forms] of-[the letters].


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## AndyRoo

Yes - that's right


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## Grammatiker

Thank you for the help. I've rectified my sentence per the suggestions made:

في اللغة العربية، توجد أشكال مختلفة للحروف

Although, which is more proper: اللغة العربتة or اللغة عربية?


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## AndyRoo

You're welcome 

It's اللغة العربية


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## Ihsiin

"اللغة العربتة" is correct, since "عربتة" is an adjective which has to  agree with the noun it qualifies in terms of definiteness.


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## Grammatiker

Which is distinct from the use of عربيّ in the context of هو رجل عربيّ = "he is an Arabic man" / هي امرأة عربيّة = "she is an Arabic woman," correct?


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## Ihsiin

The adjective is the same: "عربي", but modified to agree in terms of gender and definiteness with the noun it qualifies (number and case are also important, not relevant to this issue).

For example:

رجل عربي : an Arabic man.
الرجل العربي : the Arabic man.

The adjective must take the definite article if the noun it qualifies is definite.

Likewise, "لغة عربة" (an Arabic language) is distinct from "اللغة العربة" (the Arabic language, i.e. Arabic).
Both "اللغة عربة" and "الرجل عربي" would be incorrect, because the adjective doesn't agree with the noun in terms of definiteness.


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## Grammatiker

Oh. I actually understood that, but I was making it more complicated than it needed to be in my mind. I understand perfectly. Thanks!


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## Josh_

As has been noted, an adjective in Arabic needs to agree with the noun  it qualifies in gender, number, and definiteness.  If the noun is  definite, but the adjective is indefinite the whole structure will be a nominal  sentence (the noun is the subject and the adjective is the predicate).  Note that the predicate in a nominal sentence will still agree  with the the subject in gender and number.

So the difference between اللغة العربية والرجل العربي and اللغة عربية والرجل عربي is that the former are noun-adjective phrases -- the Arabic language, an Arab man -- whereas the latter are nominal sentences (composed of a subject and predicate) -- the language is Arabic, the man is Arab.


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## إسكندراني

AndyRoo made only one mistake:
الأشكال للحروف
actually means 'the patterns are of the letters'. An idafa gets rid of all but the last 'al' so this isn't one. Instead it's a nominal sentence; X is Y - X being the patterns, and Y being 'of the letters'.


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## Grammatiker

So then what is the best way to express "there are different forms of the letters"?


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## ayed

If I were to translate your sentence, I would say :
*هناك أنواع مختلفة من الحروف*


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## Grammatiker

Why use أنواع over أشكال? I mean that the shapes of the letters change in Arabic.

And why use من here?


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## cherine

Hi Gammatiker,

I hope you won't get too confused here.

You're right that أشكال (shapes) is the right word. أنواع is (types, kinds of) which wouldn't work here. But when we use أنواع we follow it with the preposition من , it's like "of" in (types of).


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## Grammatiker

All right. I understand. من is a word that sort of naturally goes with أنواع.

So again, what is the best way to translate my sentence using أسكال? Would it be توجد أسكال مختلفة للحروف, or would it be best translated using الإضــافــة?


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## cherine

The best answer was already given:
توجد أشكال مختلفة للحروف


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## Grammatiker

All right, I just wanted to make sure. Thanks!

And just to check one last thing, are these translations correct?

أشكال الحروف المختافة = The different shapes of the letters
أشكال الحروف مختلفة = The shapes of the letters are different

 الأشكال المختلفة للحروف = The different shapes are of the letters (perhaps a bit nonsensical, but is this correct from the perspective of the syntax?)


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## cherine

Grammatiker said:


> All right, I just wanted to make sure. Thanks!


You're welcome.


> And just to check one last thing, are these translations correct?
> 
> أشكال الحروف المختلفة = The different shapes of the letters
> أشكال الحروف مختلفة = The shapes of the letters are different
> 
> الأشكال المختلفة للحروف = The different shapes are of the letters (perhaps a bit nonsensical, but is this correct from the perspective of the syntax?)


The first two are correct. The last one has the same meaning of the first one but it has the advantage of avoiding any possible confusion as to what does the adjective describe: the shapes or the letters.

I really don't want you to confuse yourself with too many details, but as I know you'll ask  you need to know that in a structure like أشكال الحروف المختلفة it could be understood that المختلفة describes أشكال and it can be describting الحروف . Only context can tell. And sometimes, specially when there's not enough context to distinguish such things, it's better to rephrase what we want to say. This is why it's safer to go for الأشكال المختلفة للحروف to say "the different forms/shapes of the letters".


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## Grammatiker

Thank you for your informative responses.

I'll leave it at that, haha. I'm too inquisitive for my own good sometimes.


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## lukebeadgcf

Grammatiker said:


> I'm confused about يوجد though. In class, we use it as a simple word whenever we want to say "there is/are ...". We never learned any sort of conjugation or that it was even a verb.



It is a verb from the root وَجَدَ, which means "to find." يوجَدُ is the present tense (or imperfect) PASSIVE, literally meaning, "to be found." Passive verbs agree in gender with the "deputy doer" or in Arabic grammar the نائب الفاعل (it is called this way because it is different from the agent of an active verb). In your sentence the نائب الفاعل is أشكال, which by virtue of being plural and inanimate, is considered feminine. We must therefore, change يوجد to تجود to agree with أشكال in order to be grammatically correct.

There may be different rules for colloquial Arabic.

Hope that helps and good luck on your Arabic-learning adventures!


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## Grammatiker

Thank you! I've been perusing the internet for this information. You cleared up the questions I had about وجد.


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## ayed

You could also use the Arabic word"*ثمة*"_thammata_: _such;there is_


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## إسكندراني

ayed said:


> You could also use the Arabic word"*ثمة*"_thammata_: _such;there is_


I really like this word, and it's used frequently in Tunisia.
ثمّة أشكال مختلفة للحروف توجد في العربية


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## lukebeadgcf

Grammatiker said:


> Thank you! I've been perusing the internet for this information. You cleared up the questions I had about وجد.



I'm very happy to help!


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