# Celtic religions alive still?



## Soos

Greetings

My question pertains in particular to those of you from Ireland, Scotland, and any other country in Britain that shares Celtic history.

Recently I was dubbed by a Scottish acquaintance what at the time was quite a foreign name to me, "Epona".  He said I reminded him of the Celtic Goddess or horses and fertility (and listed some other things).  This sparked curiosity in me. Is this good or bad?  Are these ancient names still recognized today in the high and low lands? Do young people know about them; has it become a marked part of Scottish and Irish knowledge--your Celtic background and deities, I mean.  This is not to presume that you practice the faith but merely are naturally knowing of them because of your nationality.

It's a rather bizarre and albeit awkward question so I have tried my best to put eloquently and clearly.  If, though, I've offended anyone I assure you it was unintentional and only because of my sparse knowledge of the matter.

Best,
Serena


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## Sepia

They are still alive or have been revived.

I don't know if it still exists, but at least there even used to be an organisation called "The Reformed Druids of North America". It was actually founded as a hoax, but turned serious.


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## Soos

Thank you, Sepia.
Any other thoughts are welcomed.


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## Pedro y La Torre

Beliefs in Druids and various Celtic Gods are still alive in Ireland, if only amongst a very small minority. That said, remnants of our past Celtic beliefs are still everywhere to be seen.

There's a very famous Irish film called "The Field" about rural Ireland and the behaviour of a typical rural Irish community. At one point the village priest notes that "_it's just a thin veneer of Christianity we've painted over these people_", which even today, is a rather fair analysis. Celtic beliefs in sun gods etc. may no longer be en vogue but the popular stories of fairies, leprechauns and the heroes of Irish mythology like Cú Chulainn are still very much popular in Ireland. In primary school we are obliged to learn about them and indeed, taught to be proud of our Celtic heritage. Festivals like Samhain (where Hallowe'en comes from) and Bealtaine are also still around.


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## Sepia

Here it might be useful to add, the dogmatism that forbids mixing religions/philosophies comes from Christianity, not from the traditional Celtic or Germanic cultures. And some of the first Christians in Ireland were actually druids who had "converted" to or maybe only adapted something from Christianity. 

The probably best known of them all, St. Patrick, has been reported having performed magic in a way that would probably have been considered "whichcraft" in other parts of Europe, a few centuries later. 

So before you start looking for ancient religions in this part of the world, give it some closer thought, what you consider religion, how "alive" it must be to be alive. I am saying this because most people are brainwashed into assuming that a religion must necessarily be a clearly structured and dogmatic and closed system like Christianity is. However, there are other ways of of seeing this ...


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## Soos

Certainly, thank you.


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## Pedro y La Torre

Sepia said:


> Here it might be useful to add, the dogmatism that forbids mixing religions/philosophies comes from Christianity, not from the traditional Celtic or Germanic cultures. And some of the first Christians in Ireland were actually druids who had "converted" to or maybe only adapted something from Christianity.
> 
> The probably best known of them all, St. Patrick, has been reported having performed magic in a way that would probably have been considered "whichcraft" in other parts of Europe, a few centuries later.
> 
> So before you start looking for ancient religions in this part of the world, give it some closer thought, what you consider religion, how "alive" it must be to be alive. I am saying this because most people are brainwashed into assuming that a religion must necessarily be a clearly structured and dogmatic and closed system like Christianity is. However, there are other ways of of seeing this ...



A very good point. Up until the arrival of the English in 1169 - who were encouraged to invade by Pope Adrian IV, a point often forgotten today - the Irish were not really a part of the Roman Catholic Church but had their own distinct brand of Christianity, Celtic Christianity.

It wasn't a mix of Celtic and Christian beliefs by any means, but it certainly had a number of distinct characteristics, distinct enough that the Pope deemed the Irish to be "in heresy" and decided it desirable that such differences be gotten rid of.


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## Soos

So am I to assume, then, that the man was paying me a compliment?


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## Valeria Mesalina

Yes, he was, specially if you take into account the fertility part and not the horsey part.

The old Celtic religion was more widespread than you think. It is still very much alive in Galicia, Northwest Spain, where witches (called meigas or menciñeiras) are still very much part of any rural community.  

Samhain and Midsummer are still celebrated here too, and some local traditions date back from Celtic times.


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## Pedro y La Torre

Valeria Mesalina said:


> The old Celtic religion was more widespread than you think. It is still very much alive in Galicia, Northwest Spain, where witches (called meigas or menciñeiras) are still very much part of any rural community.
> 
> Samhain and Midsummer are still celebrated here too, and some local traditions date back from Celtic times.



Interesting that it's still alive there as in Irish mythology Galicia is believed to be where the Irish Celts (along with a new religion replacing the Tuatha Dé Danann) came from - recent research has indicated that the myth might have a good deal of basis to it as there are very strong genetic links between the Irish and people from Northwestern Spain and Portugal.



Soos said:


> So am I to assume, then, that the man was paying me a compliment?



A somewhat strange remark it must be said but it sounds like a compliment. From what I can find though Epona is not a native Irish (or Scottish as most Scottish Celtic mythology derives from the Irish) figure but rather a continental Celtic-Roman goddess. To respond to your original question, if I haven't already, Celtic heritage is a huge part of Irish people's identity - I can't comment for Scotland but it may be similar - everyone learns about the religion and figures of Celtic mythology (Cú Chulainn, Queen Medb etc.) at school and even before with things like children's books etc.


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## Fernando

I have lived in Galicia for some years and, for some reason, I did not notice any Celtic religion there. And maybe all celebration of Midsummer and Samhein were Galician-only, because my Galician friends never talked to me about them.

Assuming that "meigas" are "a religion", I fail to see the connection with Celtics. They resemble the worldwide witches. I thought "druides" were all men.


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## curly

Personally, I would think it an odd, but welcome compliment. And also that the person complimenting me is a big legend buff. I guess it would be equivalent to someone saying you're as beautiful as Helen of Troy or Hathor. It doesn't mean the religion is alive just that people, some more than others, are aware of them.


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## Valeria Mesalina

Fernando said:


> I have lived in Galicia for some years and, for some reason, I did not notice any Celtic religion there. And maybe all celebration of Midsummer and Samhein were Galician-only, because my Galician friends never talked to me about them.



You won´t notice anything living in a city; you will if you move to one of the villages of the Ancares, for instance. And there is, of course, no Celtic religion. I kind of doubt there ever was one.

But many of the old beliefs and traditions are there, if you just care to see.



> Assuming that "meigas" are "a religion", I fail to see the connection with Celtics. They resemble the worldwide witches. I thought "druides" were all men.


Meigas are not a religion, of course. Nor is, by the way, Epona, or a leprechaun, or a druid, or even a man hanging from a cross. They are all part of a given set of beliefs, traditions and rules.

A meiga worships the spirits that live in the ancient oak trees, the female spirits that inhabit the creeks and the mossy falls, the spirits that live in the fire and the ones that blow with the wind.

They collect their herbs, they make their potions according to the phases of the moon, and, even though they may very well go to mass and believe in a Christian God, they will be collecting herbas pra namorar when the full moon shines.

Mouchos, coruxas, sapos e bruxas.  
Demos,    trasnos e dianhos, espritos das nevoadas  veigas.  
Corvos, pintigas e meigas, feitizos   das mencinheiras.  
Pobres canhotas furadas,  fogar dos vermes e alimanhas.  
Lume das  Santas Companhas, mal de ollo, negros  meigallos, cheiro dos mortos, tronos e raios.  
Oubeo do can, pregon da morte, foucinho do   satiro e pe do coello.


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## Soos

Thank you all for your input, it's very enlightening and I look forward to reading more of your intellectual discussions on the matter. I think I'll give him the benefit of the doubt then and say he was paying me an eccentric compliment.


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## Valeria Mesalina

> Midsummer and Samhein were Galician-only, because my Galician friends never talked to me about them.



Samhain:
Here, here, here, here.

Midsummer:
Here, here, here, here.


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## Sepia

Fernando said:


> I have lived in Galicia for some years and, for some reason, I did not notice any Celtic religion there. And maybe all celebration of Midsummer and Samhein were Galician-only, because my Galician friends never talked to me about them.
> 
> Assuming that "meigas" are "a religion", I fail to see the connection with Celtics. They resemble the worldwide witches. I thought "druides" were all men.


 
So what are "witches" other than persons with a certain type of knowledge out of a certain culture that did not fit into the system that other persons were building by means of Christianity? Or at what they considered Christianity.


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## Fernando

Valeria Mesalina said:


> And there is, of course, no Celtic religion.


Just what I wanted to say.



Valeria Mesalina said:


> I kind of doubt there ever was one.



I do not. What you read in Bello Gallico and other Latin sources is a religion with priests, gods and so on.



Valeria Mesalina said:


> Meigas are not a religion, of course.


Just what I wanted to say.



Valeria Mesalina said:


> A meiga worships the spirits that live in the ancient oak trees, the female spirits that inhabit the creeks and the mossy falls, the spirits that live in the fire and the ones that blow with the wind.
> They collect their herbs, they make their potions according to the phases of the moon, and, even though they may very well go to mass and believe in a Christian God, they will be collecting herbas pra namorar when the full moon shines.



In which way is that specifically "Celtic"?



Valeria Mesalina said:


> Mouchos, coruxas, sapos e bruxas.
> Demos,    trasnos e dianhos, espritos das nevoadas  veigas.
> Corvos, pintigas e meigas, feitizos   das mencinheiras.
> Pobres canhotas furadas,  fogar dos vermes e alimanhas.
> Lume das  Santas Companhas, mal de ollo, negros  meigallos, cheiro dos mortos, tronos e raios.
> Oubeo do can, pregon da morte, foucinho do   satiro e pe do coello.



Curiously enough, since I have said the conxuro. Am I a Celtic believer?


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## Pedro y La Torre

An interesting paper on Galician Celtic identity, and the popularity/revival of various Celtic festivals in the region, can be found here. This study would indicate that the Celtic heritage of Galicia is still very much alive and strong.


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## Fernando

Valeria Mesalina said:


> Samhain:
> Here, here, here, here.
> 
> Midsummer:
> Here, here, here, here.



I see. What you call "Samaín" my Galician friends called it "Fiesta de Todos los Santos" and it is celebrated all over the Christian world (e.g. Halloween). 

What you call "Midsummer" my Galician friends called it "Noche/Noite de San Juán/Xoan"). In Spain is widely celebrated, specially in Coruña (a city) and all the Mediterranean coast (when the Celtic presence is unknown).

I am quite sure all these celebration have a pre-Christian foundation, but, again, I fail to see why they are specifically Celtic or connected with some kind of persistence of a Celtic religion in Galicia nowadays.


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## Valeria Mesalina

Fernando said:


> I see. What you call "Samaín" my Galician friends called it "Fiesta de Todos los Santos" and it is celebrated all over the Christian world (e.g. Halloween).
> 
> What you call "Midsummer" my Galician friends called it "Noche/Noite de San Juán/Xoan"). In Spain is widely celebrated, specially in Coruña (a city) and all the Mediterranean coast (when the Celtic presence is unknown).



It´s exactly the other way round.

The Christian authorities, I´m not sure which ones, settled Christian festivities where ancestral Celtic or Roman festivities used to take place.

A wise move, of course. But the celebration of the Summer Solstice, the Winter Solstice, the Harvest, the Killing of the Pigs, Hallow´s Eve, the Sheep Gathering have nothing to do with Christianity.

They are all older than that; some Celtic, some not. Of course Christians may choose to name them according to their Christian beliefs. 

Whether they truly believe that a celebration where spirits are purified by fire and water, and bonfires are light to warden off the witches; where men dance wildly around the bonfires, gloriously drunk, and jump over said bonfires to keep away the _mal de ollo_ is a truly Christian celebration of holiness and sanctity remains a mystery.

By the way: I have read De Bello Gallico. In Latin, so I know what Julius Caesar said.


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## Fernando

Your quoting is quite selective. I do not know why you have not quoted my 3rd paragraph.



Fernando said:


> I am quite sure all these celebration have a pre-Christian foundation, but, again, I fail to see why they are specifically Celtic or connected with some kind of persistence of a Celtic religion in Galicia nowadays.



I do not know what is your problem with "bishop or popes, I do not know", but it is a constant that a new religion (or ideology) "re-uses" the previous celebrations and costumes. The same way the current (largely atheist) culture have replaced "Todos los Santos" and "Difuntos" by "Halloween" or "Semana Santa" by "Spring Holidays" or "Snow Holidays".

But, again, why is "Celtic" a celebration that is spread all over the Mediterranean basin and I would say all over the world?

By your standard, Roman religion is well and alive, since even our weekdays are named on Roman gods. "Bishops and popes" decided (reason unknown) not to touch them and we are now "worshipping" the Moon, Mars, Mercury and so on. Ditto por Astrology names.


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## Pedro y La Torre

Fernando said:


> I do not know what is your problem with "bishop or popes, I do not know", but it is a constant that a new religion (or ideology) "re-uses" the previous celebrations and costumes. The same way the current (largely atheist) culture have replaced "Todos los Santos" and "Difuntos" by "Halloween" or "Semana Santa" by "Spring Holidays" or "Snow Holidays".
> 
> But, again, why is "Celtic" a celebration that is spread all over the Mediterranean basin and I would say all over the world?
> 
> By your standard, Roman religion is well and alive, since even our weekdays are named on Roman gods. "Bishops and popes" decided (reason unknown) not to touch them and we are now "worshipping" the Moon, Mars, Mercury and so on. Ditto por Astrology names.



I'll let Valeria repsond for herself but I don't think she ever said that Celtic religion, such as it is, is still alive in Galicia, but rather Celtic heritage and the festivals which go with it such as Samhain and Bealtaine are, as in Ireland.

The relevant stuides on the topic, such as I provided earlier, would support such a view.


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## Valeria Mesalina

Pedro y La Torre said:


> The relevant stuides on the topic, such as I provided earlier, would support such a view.



Thank you very much, Pedro, your quotation is really useful and clarifies the point.

I do believe this is getting absolutely off topic, and what I understood the thread title meant was that if Celtic traditions were still alive somewhere. 

They are.


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## Fernando

Valeria Mesalina said:


> don't think she ever said that Celtic religion, such as it is, is still alive in Galicia,



Pedro, that is exactly what she said and what I was addressing at:



Valeria Mesalina said:


> *The old Celtic religion *was more widespread than you think. It *is still very much alive in Galicia*, Northwest Spain, where witches (called meigas or menciñeiras) are still very much part of any rural community.



Anyhow, if we agree that NW Spain and North Portugal was a part of Celtic world when Romans arrived (that is what states 90% of the article you have linked) and that some forms of Celtic culture have pervived (largely mixed with other cultures) we have some common ground. 

Since it is even difficult to define what "Celtic" is, I can hardly recognize why the alleguedly "Celtic" features (bagpipes and meigas, as an example) are nothing but a remnant of almost universal (or at least Western) cultural features. But I admit it is possible to search for such a link.


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## Valeria Mesalina

Pedro y La Torre said:


> I'll let Valeria repsond for herself but I don't think she ever said that Celtic religion, such as it is, is still alive in Galicia, but rather Celtic heritage and the festivals which go with it such as Samhain and Bealtaine are, as in Ireland.



Dear Pedro, I do believe almost everyone here understood what the forera who opened the thread meant by "religion" and answered accordingly.

Because, of course, there is only one possible answer to the question "is celtic religion alive somewhere?". And the answer is "no".  

We all understood that whatever is alive of the old worship of Nature are traditions, uses, legends and names that were shared by some tribes in a time long gone.


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## romarsan

Valeria Mesalina said:


> Dear Pedro, I do believe almost everyone here understood what the forera who opened the thread meant by "religion" and answered accordingly.
> 
> Because, of course, there is only one possible answer to the question "is celtic religion alive somewhere?". And the answer is "no".
> 
> We all understood that whatever is alive of the old worship of Nature are traditions, uses, legends and names that were shared by some tribes in a time long gone.




This is the way I understood the whole thing...


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## Chaska Ñawi

I think it's time to return to Soos' original question, please.  (The highlighting is mine.)



Soos said:


> Are these ancient names still recognized today in the high and low lands? Do young people know about them; has it become a marked part of Scottish and Irish knowledge--your Celtic background and deities, I mean.  This is not to presume that you practice the faith but merely are naturally knowing of them because of your nationality.



Thank you, everyone, for your contributions and your cooperation.


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## Manuel G. Rey

No soy experto en la religión celta, pero puedo afirmar que en Barra de Miño, unos kilómetros río arriba de Ourense, había en los años de mi infancia (y doy por hecho que sigue habiendo) algunas  tradiciones y prácticas relacionados con las épocas del año, las cosechas, algunas enfermedades e infortunios, que no tenían nada de cristianas, o a lo sumo, un barniz somero. A falta de otros antecendentes, siempre creí que eran un atavismo céltico, aunque fuera inconsciente. 
Algo muy similar me encontré en A Peroxa, que no está a mucha distancia, pero que es 'montaña' y por tanto muy diferente de B. de Miño, que es 'ribeira'.
Religión celta, con un cuerpo de creencias y culto, no. 
Supersticiones, vestigios de un pasado celta, convencido de que sí.
Ahora, si viene alguien que merece crédito, y me dice que no son cosa celta, sino de los suevos, los alanos o los godos, reconsideraría mis ideas. 
En resumen, después de leer detenidamente los posts precedentes, estoy más cerca de lo que dice  Valeria Mesalina, que de las opiniones en contrario.


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## Sepia

Valeria Mesalina said:


> ...
> 
> Because, of course, there is only one possible answer to the question "is celtic religion alive somewhere?". And the answer is "no".
> 
> ...




There is no evidence to prove that claim either. But as I said further up thread, the boundaries are not clear and one should consider closely what he is looking for before claiming that he has either found it or that it does not exist. 

But since there is no fixed set of rules or dogma or any Celtic "Pope-Druid" to decide if one has "converted" there bound to be different ways of seeing this. What you may not know, is that there is not even a standardized list of gods that were valid to all Celtics. Names of approx. 300 gods are known, some only used one single village. So whatever people has kept or revived of traditional Celtic spiritual beliefs or ways of viewing the universe and incorporated in their personal religions is no less Celtic religion than anything practiced 1.000 years ago, I should say. 

As a matter of fact, 1.000 years ago, it was not any different: Not even Celtic Christianity was like Christianity practiced within the "jurisdiction" of the Popes. By many of the leading figures it was just considered an addition to their traditional religion.

Today an increasing number of people reject the thesis of a personified God and are still considered Christians. In Denmark it is today more than 40% of them - twice as many aa 20 years ago. 

So if  people in Ireland, Scotland or elsewhere - who may or may not still worship one or more the ancient gods - try to live by and respect the traditional Celtic values in terms of being a part of nature, not just exploiting or destructing it, is that "Celtic religions alive" or not?


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## Valeria Mesalina

Sepia said:


> So if  people in Ireland, Scotland or elsewhere - who may or may not still worship one or more the ancient gods - try to live by and respect the traditional Celtic values in terms of being a part of nature, not just exploiting or destructing it, is that "Celtic religions alive" or not?



People in my part of the country love their Celtic traditions and are proud of them.

Many of them match the ones in Ireland and Scotland.

And that´s all I ever wanted to point out. And that´s the end of the discussion for me.


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## Pedro y La Torre

Sepia said:


> So if  people in Ireland, Scotland or elsewhere - who may or may not still worship one or more the ancient gods - try to live by and respect the traditional Celtic values in terms of being a part of nature, not just exploiting or destructing it, is that "Celtic religions alive" or not?



Celtic "religion", however we define it, is surely still alive but only practised by a minute percentage of the population, in Ireland at least.

What is more popular is the celebration of Celtic heritage, festivals, mythology etc. and indeed these have modified the following culture(s) to a great extent even going so far as to meld some of the old beliefs and practices into "new" popular religions like Christianity, such as you mentioned earlier.


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## Soos

Thank you all for putting your blood, sweat, and tears into this thread. I enjoyed reading your discussions further. It seems to me, after putting together all the pieces to this particularly trying puzzle, I will take it as a yes, Celtic faiths are still alive though in a dim light in comparison to the many years ago, when they were among the masses and growing.


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## lantern

Just my opinion: you're much more likely to find "New age"-type hippies from the USA or England who worship Celtic deities then you are to find any non-pot smoking person from Ireland, Scotland, etc, who would do such a thing.


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## Sepia

lantern said:


> Just my opinion: you're much more likely to find "New age"-type hippies from the USA or England who worship Celtic deities then you are to find any non-pot smoking person from Ireland, Scotland, etc, who would do such a thing.



However, there is a lot more to religions than actively worshipping deities. Learning to perform the rituals of a religion in the search of a new spirituality may be a very superficial thing - but a certain way of thinking that lies beneath this may be widespread without anyone really noticing it. If you take a closer look at the history Celtic Christianty you'll find that many of its protagonists didn't really think Christianity was something really new. Just more like a new surface to what they already had. Sooner or later the Pope was bound to have a problem with this - and he had.

But the real question is, did that change the minds of the people for centuries to come. Or is it stll just a new surface to the old religion, to some people?


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## Jasmine_Chila

I think it'd be either the fact that old stories often still make their way into Scottish speech, mixed with the fact that Scots these days often have a tendency to look back with pride rather than forward. 

There's also that your Scottish friend may be trying to appear more mystical and foreign, Celts love to stress how they still have a unique culture - something rare in the English speaking world in these days of Globalization.


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## Kevin Beach

I hope this isn't considered off-topic.

I find it odd that so many people refer to a supposedly Celtic religion by a Saxon name, *Wicca,* and to a female exponent of it by a related Saxon word, *Wicce* (witch).

I have never been able to find any evidence going back before the 19th century for the propositions that (a) Celtic religion(s) survived the introduction of Christianity and (b) that Christian holy days were deliberately embossed onto pagan holy days. Every day of the year is dedicated to a Christian saint or event. It is inevitable that some of them willl coincide with important days in other religions.


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