# Können Sie einen Schlüssel auf meinem Pult sehen? (syntax)



## hhtt

"Können Sie einen Schlüssel auf meinem Pult sehen." I undertand the meaning easily and clearly but if try
to understand the sentence from respect of grammar I fail.

What is the case of this sentence and which case makes "ein" here "einen" , and which of the verbs, können or sehen, turn ein to einen?

Thank you.


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## kayokid

Hello.

Since nobody else has answered yet, I'll start.

können is an auxiliary/helping/modal verb and has nothing to do with the "cases"

The basic sentence is:

Sie sehen einen Schlüssel ... auf meinem Pult.  (with the addition of the modal verb and it is in an interrogative/ a question form)

Sie = You (subject)

sehen = verb

der/ein Schlüssel [nominative form] = the/a key (direct object in this sentence)
Direct objects are in the accusative case. In the accusative, 'der' changes to 'den' and 'ein' to 'einen'.

'auf meinem Pult' is a prepositional phrase.

Does that help?


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## Kajjo

The sentence is a question: _Können Sie einen Schlüssel auf meinem Pult sehen?
_
Statement: Sie können einen Schlüssel sehen.
Question: Können Sie einen Schlüssel sehen?

"Sie" is subject, "einen Schlüssel" is object, "können sehen" is the predicate with the modal verb _können_ and the infinitive of a full verb _sehen_.

http://www.canoo.net/services/Onlin...fModal/Modalverb.html?MenuId=Word2152&lang=en


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## berndf

hhtt said:


> which of the verbs, können or sehen, turn ein to einen?


_Sehen _takes an accusative object, hence _Schlüssel _is accusative. The case of the article is determined by the case of the noun phrase it belongs to, hence it has to be accusative masculine (because _Schlüssel _is masculine). Looking this up in the declension table you will find the form _einen_.


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## hhtt

berndf said:


> _Sehen _takes an accusative object, hence _Schlüssel _is accusative. The case of the article is determined by the case of the noun phrase it belongs to, hence it has to be accusative masculine (because _Schlüssel _is masculine). Looking this up in the declension table you will find the form _einen_.


 
If we would ignore ein/einen in the sentence how would that accusative word behave? -would it be schlüsselen i.e "Können Sie Schlüsselen auf meinem Pult sehen.

Thank you.


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## berndf

hhtt said:


> If we would ignore ein/einen in the sentence how would that accusative word behave? -would it be schlüsselen i.e "Können Sie Schlüsselen auf meinem Pult sehen.


No, the head noun of a noun phrase is never influenced by attributes or determiners. For nouns without any attributes or determiners Nominative and accusative are often indistinguishable. Since the loss of the dative-_e_ in the late 19th/early 20th century, even dative is indistinguishable from nominative and accusative. But since most noun phrases have determiners and/or attributes, this is in practice seldom a problem.


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## Mori.cze

Not sure what you mean... you cannot just leave out the article applied to German (singular) noun. And the case of said noun mostly has no effect on the noun form (apart from the genitive case and some exceptions)

You can say
-- Sie sehen einen Schlüssel / You see a key (acc.)
-- Sie sehen den Schlüssel / You see the key (acc.)
-- Sie sehen meinen Schlüssel / You see my key (acc.)
-- Sie sehen diesen Schlüssel / You see this key (acc.)

in singular, but there is never a change to the noun and there is always something working as the article.

In plural, it becomes (note that the singular and plural form of key is not different)
-- Sie sehen die Schlüssel / You see the keys (acc.)
-- Sie sehen Schlüssel / You see keys (acc.)
and few more „more advanced“ options, e.g. einige/some or possessive pronoun

The noun is always in accusative, but the declination is carried out by the article only.

In genitive, the noun changes too, but that does not mean you can leave out the article.
-- Die schlüssel meines (des, eines) Bruder*s* / My (the, a) brother's _(genitive)_ keys (actually this one is not so different from English, just the usage of German genitive is somewhat wider than only as a possessive)

(and now I hope I got the grammar correct)


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## hhtt

berndf said:


> No, the head noun of a noun phrase is never influenced by attributes or determiners. For nouns without any attributes or determiners Nominative and accusative are often indistinguishable. Since the loss of the dative-_e_ in the late 19th/early 20th century, even dative is indistinguishable from nominative and accusative. But since most noun phrases have determiners and/or attributes, this is in practice seldom a problem.


 
Hi. What do you refer to by head noun? Is it the article?

Thank you.


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## berndf

hhtt said:


> Hi. What do you refer to by head noun? Is it the article?


An article is not a noun.

Example noun phrase: _Ein großer Schlüssel_.
_Ein_ <-- article
_großer_ <-- attribute
_Schlüssel_ <-- head noun.


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## Hutschi

hhtt said:


> If we would ignore ein/einen in the sentence how would that accusative word behave? -would it be schlüsselen i.e "Können Sie Schlüsselen auf meinem Pult sehen.
> 
> Thank you.


It is: "Können Sie Schlüssel auf meinem Pult sehen?" - and it is the plural accusative form of "Schlüssel", it is identical to the nominative form - as Bernd already mentioned.
If it is singular, an article is necessary and cannot be ignored - in this sentence.

There are some special phrases without article in singular, too.
Example:
Ich öffne die Tür mit Schlüssel. (It indicates how you open it.)


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## hhtt

hhtt said:


> auf meinem Pult



Would you please explain the part "auf meinem Pult"?

Thank you.


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## berndf

It describes the location of the key: on my desk.


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## hhtt

berndf said:


> It describes the location of the key: on my desk



But is "on my desk", or "auf meinem Pult" an indirect object here? How do you determine?

Thank you.


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## anahiseri

das Pult, neutrum. The question would be: *Wo* ist der Schlüssel?(Location) You wouldn't make the question with *wohin*, because this implies movement from one place to another. If the question is with *wo, *then the noun takes Dativ  (except if it is a preposition with fixed case). with an article, it's
auf *dem* Pult (on the desk). The *m *marks the Dativ neutrum. With the Possessive, you have the same Marker:
auf *meinem* Pult. (on my desk).


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## anahiseri

The Dativ is also used for indirect objects, but not here. This phrase is an example of using the Dativ with a preposition to speak about location: where something or somebody is.


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## berndf

hhtt said:


> But is "on my desk", or "auf meinem Pult" an indirect object here?


It is an _adverbial_ (_adverbiale Bestimmung_).


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## anahiseri

corrected mistake : das Pult, neutrum !


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## hhtt

anahiseri said:


> *Wo* ist der Schlüssel?(Location) You wouldn't make the question with *wohin*, because this implies movement from one place to another. If the question is with *wo, *then the noun takes Dativ (except if it is a preposition with fixed case)



Do you mean "der Schlüssel" is in dative in "wo ist der Schlüssel" since the question is with *wo?
*
Thank you.


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## berndf

hhtt said:


> Do you mean "der Schlüssel" is in dative in "wo ist der Schlüssel" since the question is with *wo?
> *
> Thank you.


No, that is a mnemonic device for native speakers to remember that they are using dative. Native speakers intuitively know which form to use but they don't necessarily know that it is called dative. These grammar terms they learn in school and they learn it this way: "If you ask _wo_ it is dative. If you ask _wohin_ it is accusative". For you it has little meaning. As a non-native speaker you wouldn't know if to ask _wo_ or _wohin_ unless you know you have to use dative or accusative.

There are many threads about these prepositions that can take either dative or accusative depending on context. For your question here, the precise logic which case to use is not important. The answer to your question is: _meinem Pult_  is dative here because the preposition _auf_ requires is to be. It is not an indirect object.


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## hhtt

berndf said:


> These grammar terms they learn in school and they learn it this way: "If you ask _wo_ it is dative. If you ask _wohin_ it is accusative"



Yes, this makes nonsense to me.



berndf said:


> For your question here, the precise logic which case to use is not important.



I find the explanation ''if you ask _wo _it is dative'' because isn't _der Schülessel _the subject of a sentence and if something is a subject isn't it _nominative_?

Thank you.


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## anahiseri

berndf said:


> The answer to your question is: _meinem Pult_ is dative here because the preposition _auf_ requires is to be. It is not an indirect object.


Not really: *auf* can be followed by Dativ or Akkusativ (Ich lege den Schlüssel *auf den* Tisch), but in this case it's Dativ because it's an expression to denote the place where something or someone is, not the place where something or somebody is moved to.


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## berndf

hhtt said:


> I find the explanation ''if you ask _wo _it is dative'' because isn't _der Schülessel _the subject of a sentence and if something is a subject isn't it _nominative_?


We have been talking about prepositional phrases here (_auf meinem Pult_). This has nothing to do with _einen Schlüssel_, which is accusative and not nominative as it is the direct object and not the subject.


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## anahiseri

It's true, as Berndf says, that the difference between *wo* and *wohin* is probably only useful for native speakers.
But a student of German can understand that an adverbial about location (where sth, sb *is*) has a preposition with Dativ, and an adverbial about movement a preposition with Akkusativ.
Example:
Er ist in *der* Schule.  Dativ  (he is at school)
Er geht in *die* Schule. Akkusativ (he goes to school)
Same preposition, different case.


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## bearded

hhtt said:


> isn't _der Schülessel _the subject of a sentence and if something is a subject isn't it _nominative_?


Hello
Sure, in all German sentences the subject is in nominative case. The question 'dative/accusative' does not concern the subject, but only its location/position or destination/movement.
1.Der Schlüssel (subject, always nominative) ist auf _dem _Pult (dative of location);
2.Der Schlüssel (subject, always nominative) wird auf _das_ Pult gelegt (accusative of movement/destination).
Sentence no. 1 could be the reply to the question ''*wo* ist der Schlüssel?''
Sentence no.2 could be the reply to the question ''*wohin *wird der Schlüssel gelegt?''.

--Crossed with anahiseri--


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## berndf

anahiseri said:


> Not really: *auf* can be followed by Dativ or Akkusativ (Ich lege den Schlüssel *auf den* Tisch), but in this case it's Dativ because it's an expression to denote the place where something or someone is, not the place where something or somebody is moved to.


See the sentence above:


berndf said:


> There are many threads about these prepositions that can take either dative or accusative depending on context. For your question here, the precise logic which case to use is not important.


It is a bit more complicated than _place_ vs. _movement_ and therefore I didn't want to get into it at this point in the discussion. The bottom line still is: it is dative because of the preposition.


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## Hutschi

Just about the difference between "wo" and"wohin":
"Wo" asks for the (static) place/location or for the place of a movement.
"Wohin" asks for the destination of a movement. 
It is a shortcut to decide the cases.

"Auf" is a "Wechselpräposition", it is dative because of Preposition "auf"+ context.

There are some such prepositions with both possibilities.  See here: Wechselpräpositionen - mein-deutschbuch.de

(Shortened because of #28)


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## JClaudeK

hhtt said:


> But is "on my desk", or "auf meinem Pult" an indirect object here? How do you determine?


No, it's not _an indirect object,_ but a_ "locative adjunct" _establishing where the key is (supposed to be).
The présopition "auf" must be followed by a dative adjunct in this sentence:_  (*is*) a key on the desk (or not)? _


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## berndf

JClaudeK said:


> No, it's not _an indirect object, but a "locative adjunct" _establishing where the keys are.




I hope this settles the matter now. We really don't need the zillionth discussion about _Wechselpräpositionen_ here. Whoever is interested should take a look at the many threads on the topic. Searching the forum for the keywords "Wechselpräposition" or "dative" or "Dativ" will produce many pertinent results.


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## Hutschi

Hi,
I shortened #26 because of the hint in #28.
The main point is that "auf" needs context to find the case dative vs. accussative.


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