# I'd rather it were I who were ill



## jstrano

Hello. I have trouble with this sentence. I was talking to my friend about how my sister had come down with an illness. I said:

*I'd rather it were I who were ill*

 (meaning I wish I was ill instead of her) 

But I also came up with *"I'd rather it were I who was ill*"

Can't decide which one is correct.

Thanks in advance


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## The Newt

Usage of the contrary-to-fact "were" is variable; it tends to get used less in the UK than in the US. In any case, I think "it *were* I who *was*" sounds fine here.


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## jstrano

The Newt said:


> Usage of the contrary-to-fact "were" is variable; it tends to get used less in the UK than in the US. In any case, I think "it *were* I who *was*" sounds fine here.


Hello. I thought were was the correct use? For instance, If I say "I wish I were rich" > this is gramatically correct, although is less commonly used than "I Wish I was rich" 

Thanks


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## The Newt

jstrano said:


> Hello. I thought were was the correct use? For instance, If I say "I wish I were rich" > this is grammatically correct, although is less commonly used than "I Wish I was rich"
> 
> Thanks



English has no unified authority that determines what "correct" usage is. Neither form is inherently incorrect or ungrammatical. My understanding, as I said, is that UK English tends to prefer "was" where we in the US would often use "were." I'm comfortable with either form.


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## gengo

jstrano said:


> I thought were was the correct use? For instance, If I say "I wish I were rich" > this is gram*m*atically correct, although is less commonly used than "I *w*ish I was rich"



I'd rather it were I who were ill. 

This is incorrect because there is no need for the subjunctive in the second "be" verb.  The first "were" conveys the subjunctive mood, and the "was" is just a clause telling us what the speaker prefers.  Therefore, _I'd rather it were I who was ill_ is the grammatically correct form, because it is a sort of ellipsis of "I'd rather it were I, the one who was ill" (= I'd rather I were the one who was ill).

However, that construction sounds very formal.  In regular speech we would be more likely to say something like "I wish I were ill/sick instead of you."


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## The Newt

gengo said:


> I'd rather it were I who were ill.
> 
> This is incorrect because there is no need for the subjunctive in the second "be" verb.  The first "were" conveys the subjunctive mood, and the "was" is just a clause telling us what the speaker prefers.  Therefore, _I'd rather it were I who was ill_ is the grammatically correct form, because it is a sort of ellipsis of "I'd rather it were I, the one who was ill."
> [...]





That was my hunch but thanks for confirming it.


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## jstrano

The Newt said:


> English has no unified authority that determines what "correct" usage is. Neither form is inherently incorrect or ungrammatical. My understanding, as I said, is that UK English tends to prefer "was" where we in the US would often use "were." I'm comfortable with either form.





The Newt said:


> That was my hunch but thanks for confirming it.



Much obliged, gentlemen!


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## FromPA

gengo said:


> I'd rather it were I who were ill.
> 
> This is incorrect because there is no need for the subjunctive in the second "be" verb.  The first "were" conveys the subjunctive mood, and the "was" is just a clause telling us what the speaker prefers.  Therefore, _I'd rather it were I who was ill_ is the grammatically correct form, because it is a sort of ellipsis of "I'd rather it were I, the one who was ill" (= I'd rather I were the one who was ill).
> 
> However, that construction sounds very formal.  In regular speech we would be more likely to say something like "I wish I were ill/sick instead of you."


I agree that the second “were” is incorrect, but I’m not so sure that the use of “was” instead of “is” is not just another form of the subjunctive. The English subjunctive is very fuzzy and takes many forms in different contexts, and sometimes the form is to use past tense where you would normally expect present tense. I think this may be one of those instances.


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## User With No Name

I don't like "I rather it was I..." at all. To me, the prescriptively correct form for a hypothetical subjunctive using the verb "to be" is definitely "were."

But to me, there's another problem. If we were going to ignore the prescriptivists and say it the was most people probably would in everyday speech, it wouldn't be "I wish it was I..." It would be "I wish it was me that was sick."

So to me, "I wish it was I" is neither fish nor fowl.


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## gvergara

According to what I knew, would rather is followed by the Past Simple when the subjects are different. So I infer if I'd rather + Subject other than I is used in the sense of I wish it should be followed by the subjunctive, is that right?


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## jstrano

FromPA said:


> I agree that the second “were” is incorrect, but I’m not so sure that the use of “was” instead of “is” is not just another form of the subjunctive. The English subjunctive is very fuzzy and takes many forms in different contexts, and sometimes the form is to use past tense where you would normally expect present tense. I think this may be one of those instances.





User With No Name said:


> I don't like "I rather it was I..." at all. To me, the prescriptively correct form for a hypothetical subjunctive using the verb "to be" is definitely "were."
> 
> But to me, there's another problem. If we were going to ignore the prescriptivists and say it the was most people probably would in everyday speech, it wouldn't be "I wish it was I..." It would be "I wish it was me that was sick."
> 
> So to me, "I wish it was I" is neither fish nor fowl.





gvergara said:


> According to what I knew, would rather is followed by the Past Simple when the subjects are different. So I infer if I'd rather + Subject other than I is used in the sense of I wish it should be followed by the subjunctive, is that right?



Thanks for the replies gentlemen. I' am a bit conflicted now 
According to the link sent by gvergara the correct answer should be

*I'd rather it was I who was ill*

or am I mistaken?


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## gengo

gvergara said:


> According to what I knew, would rather is followed by the Past Simple when the subjects are different. So I infer if I'd rather + Subject other than I is used in the sense of I wish it should be followed by the subjunctive, is that right?



Yes, it requires the past subjunctive (which for all verbs other than _to be_ looks the same as the simple past tense).



jstrano said:


> According to the link sent by gvergara the correct answer should be
> 
> *I'd rather it was I who was ill*



"Was" is not subjunctive, which is the mood required here:  _I'd rather it *were* I who was ill._

Keep in mind that most native English speakers don't really understand the subjunctive (or even what that word means), so you will hear many people misuse it.  That may be the cause of your confusion.  There is what is grammatically correct, and there is what natives actually say.


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## gvergara

gengo said:


> Yes, *it requires the past subjunctive* (which for all verbs other than _to be_ looks the same as the simple past tense).





gengo said:


> "Was" is not *subjunctive, which is the mood required here*: _I'd rather it *were* I who was ill._


I don't get it, gengo. The link indicates the Past Simple should be used (which is what I was taught many years back), and provides the exaplanation and an example _When the subjects of the two clauses are different, we often use *the past simple* to talk about the present or future, and the past perfect to talk about the past_ _Would you rather I wasn’t honest with you?_ (past simple to talk about the present or future), while in both statements you say that the past subjunctive is required. Could you please help me understand this?


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## gengo

I didn't look at the link, but in my opinion, "I'd rather that..." requires the subjunctive.  However, many native English speakers do not use the subjunctive (saying things such as "I wish I was rich"), so what is correct may be debatable.


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## Cholo234

jstrano said:


> Can't decide which one is correct.



The present subjunctive or the present tense use is called "unusual".  (Sorry, no cleft sentence examples appeared.)


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## jstrano

Cholo234 said:


> The present subjunctive or the present tense use is called "unusual".  (Sorry, no cleft sentence examples appeared.)



Hello.
So if it's unusual (but nonetheless correct) then gengo's reply is correct? I'm not actually planning to write it in a essay or anything like that, I just wanted to know which one is correct.
Thanks in advance.


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## Cholo234

jstrano said:


> I'm not actually planning to write it in a essay or anything like that, I just wanted to know which one is correct.



1. "All translation is an interpretation."  (from Translation, A Very Short Introduction, Matthew Reynolds)
2. I usually "side" with The Cambridge Grammar of English (the source of the second attachment), then authors of print.

The Newt said:

"English has no unified authority that determines what "correct" usage is."
I'd rather it were I who were ill


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## elprofe

The one that makes most sense to me is:
· _I'd rather it were I who is ill_


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## Cerros de Úbeda

jstrano said:


> (meaning *I wish I was ill instead of her.*



In Britain;

- I'd rather it was me who was / were ill.

By the way, the one you have there (with a comma), sounds quite more natural than the others you gave...

- I wish I was ill, instead of her / not her.

Alternatively;

- Instead of her, I wish it was me who was / were ill.


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## jstrano

Cholo234 said:


> 1. "All translation is an interpretation."  (from Translation, A Very Short Introduction, Matthew Reynolds)
> 2. I usually "side" with The Cambridge Grammar of English (the source of the second attachment), then all authors of print.
> 
> The Newt said:
> 
> "English has no unified authority that determines what "correct" usage is."
> I'd rather it were I who were ill





elprofe said:


> The one that makes most sense to me is:
> · _I'd rather it were I who is ill_





Cerros de Úbeda said:


> In Britain;
> 
> - I'd rather it was me who was / were ill.
> 
> By the way, the one you have there (with a comma), sounds quite more natural than the others you gave...
> 
> - I wish I was ill, instead of her / not her.
> 
> Alternatively;
> 
> - Instead of her, I wish it was me who was / were ill.



I like your versions more.

Thank you gentlemen. You've been of great help. All is clear now. Much obliged!


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## Cholo234

Another option includes the use of _person:  I'd rather I was the person who was ill._


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## jstrano

I actually had never heard the case "It is I who need your help". Would have guessed the verb ended with an S.Learned something new!. Thank you.


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## Cholo234

¿Resume cada una de estas frases el sentido de la oración primera?

¡Ojalá yo fuera el enfermo!
¡Así fuera yo el enfermo!
¡Que yo fuera el enfermo!


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## jstrano

Cholo234 said:


> ¿Resume cada una de estas frases el sentido de la oración primera?
> 
> ¡Ojalá yo fuera el enfermo!
> ¡Así fuera yo el enfermo!
> ¡Que yo fuera el enfermo!



Yes. Mostly the first one.


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## Cholo234

Gracias . . . y un saludo de EE.UU.


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## jstrano

Cholo234 said:


> The present subjunctive or the present tense use is called "unusual".  (Sorry, no cleft sentence examples appeared.)
> 
> View attachment 47720



One last thing... In the second example
"I'll call Madeleine if you'd rather she *was* present"
Shouldn't it be "she were present"? Since it's the subjunctive mood (to imply something which is contrary to fact: she is not present at the moment.


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## gengo

jstrano said:


> One last thing... In the second example
> "I'll call Madeleine if you'd rather she *was* present"
> Shouldn't it be "she were present"? Since it's the subjunctive mood (to imply something which is contrary to fact: she is not present at the moment.



I say yes, but others in this thread say no.  Take your choice.  What is indisputable is that both forms are widely used.


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## jstrano

gengo said:


> I say yes, but others in this thread say no.  Take your choice.  What is indisputable is that both forms are widely used.


Got it!


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## Ignacio Garriz

what about...
I'd rather (that) i were ill instead of her.


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## elroy

elprofe said:


> The one that makes most sense to me is:
> · _I'd rather it were I who is ill_


 The present tense in the second part doesn’t work for me at all.  It sounds nails-on-chalkboard wrong.


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## elprofe

elroy said:


> The present tense in the second part doesn’t work for me at all.  It sounds nails-on-chalkboard wrong.



I see...    I understand it may not sound natural to many native speakers, but the verb "to be" in the second part of the statement refers to a fact, so I don't think you should use any verb form other than "is"....

Consider this:
She is ill, but it should be I who *is *ill (maybe because I've been playing outside barefoot in winter)
She is ill, but I'd rather it were I who *is* ill

I mean, "would rather" triggers the subjunctive, but I can see no reason why the second part of the statement should change too...

Does that make any sense to anyone?


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## elroy

In English, tense congruence often extends beyond a single clause.  I can't imagine a native speaker using "is" in that sentence.


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## gengo

elprofe said:


> I mean, "would rather" triggers the subjunctive, but I can see no reason why the second part of the statement should change too...



I think elroy means that it should be in the past tense, not the subjunctive mood.

_I'd rather it were I who is ill.   
I'd rather it were I who was ill. _

I don't know how to explain the reason here, but we use the past tense even though we are referring to a state that exists in the present.  I guess the reason is that the subjunctive expresses a hypothetical situation (that I am the ill one), and therefore anything that happens in that situation is in the past tense.


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