# baby



## shawnee

Quote from Volcano in another forum: "Yavru means little/baby.If you say yavru kuş, it means little/baby bird that has been born newly."

I remember hearing the word "maksum" (sp?) being expressed in the presence of newly born babies. I always thought it was Turkish and that it meant something like my little child." In the light of Volcano's information it appears I might have made an incorrect assumption.


----------



## Volcano

*Hello shawnee

I have never heard of it being used for babies.I think it is a religionist name.*


----------



## tekitoi

maksum isn't a turkish word as far as i know, but "masum" would mean innocent, which is sometimes said to babies/children..


----------



## Odgar Ap Wycglaffhelwyr

"Maksum" is an Arabic word which means "separated" or "divided." Although it is usually  included in dictionaries, you will not hear that word used either in daily or in formal speech, maybe in religious context.

As Tikito remarked, "masum," which is also of Arabic origin, means innocent. Yet, I have never heard it used as a substitute for "baby" or "children." It may connote children, as they are usually associated with innocence, though.


----------



## shawnee

Thanks very much for your efforts. I will now explain the background to this word which I had mistakenly taken for Turkish. It is the word used by my Northern Greek mother in law when she was caressing my children when they were babies. Her Greek is invested with quite a number of Turkish words and I just made the assumption. The only other source of a non Greek word for her part of Greece would be slavonic but the word does not sound slavic to me. I can only conclude that it is a corruption of "masum."


----------



## shafaq

I heard many times *maksum* and *masum* used instead of child where *maksum* is just a colloquially distorted form of *masum*(innocent as explained above) by some (usually ethnic) groups.

ie:

Masumlardan ne istediniz...? 

   which may be interpreted literally as What did you want by the innocents (children)  where it is an other way of saying  
For what you tortured (even killed) the children ?


----------



## shawnee

herşeyden önce çok teşekkür ederim, Shafaq,
I am most interested to hear this confirmation.


----------



## Odgar Ap Wycglaffhelwyr

shafaq said:


> I heard many times *maksum* and *masum* used instead of child where *maksum* is just a colloquially distorted form of *masum*(innocent as explained above) by some (usually ethnic) groups.
> 
> ie:
> 
> Masumlardan ne istediniz...?
> 
> which may be interpreted literally as What did you want by the innocents (children)  where it is an other way of saying
> For what you tortured (even killed) the children ?



First, your usage of the abbreviation "i.e. (id est - that is)" makes no sense.

Second, please let me explain that in your example "masum" is not used instead of the word "child."

Masumlardan ne istediniz? = [lit.]  What did you want from the innocent? 

As one can clearly see, it is used to describe an "innocent / masum" mass which had been treated maliciously, violently or simply bad before; and this question seeks a reason for such a cruel act against an innocent mass - i.e. "the innocent." 

This innocent mass can include children as well as adults, or it can consist only of children. Yet, any group can be claimed to be "innocent" regardless of the age of its members - for one does not have to be a child to be innocent.

One might think this "innocent mass" a group of children, but only because of a connotation - not because of the reason the word "masum" is used instead of the word "çocuk." Moreover, this guess would most probably a false one - as it is almost impossible that a group which consists only of innocent children be attacked. 

Last, masum means "innocent"; while "maksum" means separated or divided, and çocuk "child." Anyone who uses these words interchangeably makes a mistake in both languages.


----------



## capricorn00

I dont know what maksum in Arabic means but according to Islam, grown-ups cannot be "innocent" because real innocence is related to being able to have sex and only children can be "masum". So you dont use it for a "mass of human beings". When someone says "Masumlardan ne istediniz?" he mostly means the children who are tortured or killed.
Second,it is not a CONNOTATİON. In most places in Anatolia you can hear "masum" used for children who are 2-3 years old.


----------



## Odgar Ap Wycglaffhelwyr

capricorn00 said:


> I dont know what maksum in Arabic means but according to Islam, grown-ups cannot be "innocent" because real innocence is related to being able to have sex and only children can be "masum". So you dont use it for a "mass of human beings". When someone says "Masumlardan ne istediniz?" he mostly means the children who are tortured or killed.
> Second,it is not a CONNOTATİON. In most places in Anatolia you can hear "masum" used for children who are 2-3 years old.



The word "masum" may mean "children" in that context - "masumlardan ne istediniz?" - but it is only because of a connotation, as I've explained, not because these words can be used interchangeably. 

Innocence, as you've also remarked, is usually associated with children and hence the word "masum" connotes children - just like in the context we talk about. Yet, this should not and does not mean that these two words can be used interchangeably. Or else, you would hear sentences like "masum geldi," instead of a sentence like "çocuk geldi," but considering you never do, please try to measure the meaning of this word by this example.

Masum does not mean çocuk, but the two are embedded - NOT INHERENTLY! - into each other by associations. Compare it to English "innocent" and "child;" and you'll see that these two are associated words though they cannot be used interchangeably.


----------



## Odgar Ap Wycglaffhelwyr

P.S. Capricorn's portion of Islam relies on his/her nescience, and celebrates a lack of knowledge and belief.


----------



## shafaq

Odgar Ap Wycglaffhelwyr said:


> First, your usage of the abbreviation "i.e. (id est - that is)" makes no sense.



  Whatsoever I did not use it regarding* i.e.(id est)*; admit that even my intention  didn't fit fully and causes an interference with it... Yes ! It's a misuse.




Odgar Ap Wycglaffhelwyr said:


> Second, please let me explain that in your example "masum" is not used instead of the word "child."
> 
> Masumlardan ne istediniz? = [lit.]  What did you want from the innocent?



I don't agree with you on this  because, as a native speaker I ever apprehend  that the intent here is "children"  (even very young chidren as *capricorn00* mentioned); not "adults". "Why" of this will be explained in my last paragraph.



			
				Odgar Ap Wycglaffhelwyr said:
			
		

> The word "masum" may mean "children" in that context - "masumlardan ne istediniz?" - but it is only because of a connotation, as I've explained, not because these words can be used interchangeably.



I agree with you here with no doubt ! We use it (mostly in colloquial) where the intention is to* expess* the *innocence* (more accurate *sinlessness*) not the *child*ness of them.

In regarding "maksum"; as I said above; it is distorted, corropted (even tortured!) form of "masum" in tongue of some ethnic Kurds, Rums perhaps Ermenis and ifluenced Greeks which can be encountered (at least I did) in likely forms as  "mahsum, magsum, mağsum" and not so common. But this corroption is not a  purposeless distortion as someone may suppose and I made an attempt to clarify the "why" of it.


 I disregard Arabic word maqsum (means "divided" or "partitioned") due to its' irrelevance with this topic which  is not used in (modern) Turkish 

.   
.
.  I think all the misundestandings around the word "masum"* معثوم* are due to our negligence of its' authentic meaning; where it is an Arabic word  and at the same time a religious term which exactly means "*sinless*" not "*innocent*"...! Hence its' pronounciation is so difficult to non Arabs and an equivalent sound to represent letter * ع* doesn' exist in European Languages even in Turkish. It is prononciated like *ma' suum; *which* ' *indicates a sharp interruption while pronouncing letter  *ع*. And that is the "*why*" and origin of "*maksum, mahsum, magsum *or* mağsum*" forms... It's just a fruitless but significant effort to simulate the sharp interrupted sound of letter * ع ('ayn)*. As the Turkish version masum (pronounced as *maasum* by drawing "*a"* out)  *totally omits *the letter *ع* due to its difficult pronounciation.

..........................
İyilik olsun ! Hep öyle olsun !


----------



## capricorn00

Odgar Ap Wycglaffhelwyr said:


> P.S. Capricorn's portion of Islam relies on his/her nescience, and celebrates a lack of knowledge and belief.


 
...and I found it offending and rude that the word "nescience" is used especially by a person whose native language is not Turkish and religion is not Islam.


----------



## Odgar Ap Wycglaffhelwyr

shafaq said:


> I agree with you here with no doubt ! We use it (mostly in colloquial) where the intention is to* expess* the *innocence* (more accurate *sinlessness*) not the *child*ness of them.



I am happy that we managed to come to terms with each other on this - that these two words cannot be used interchangeably, but are associated with each other was the gist of my posts!

And let me add something on arabic pronunciation. I don't know which dialect or regional vernacular of the arabic language you are talking about, but in modern standard arabic the correct pronunciation of "معثوم" is mʕθu:m - though it does not mean anything as far as I know.

The sound value of 'ain is usually described as "voiced pharyngeal approximant/fricative," and it is omnipresent in many semitic abjads - with similar shapes. However, the pronunciation can occasionally be epiglottal ʢ, and may also be a pharyngealised glottal stop ʔˤ. Considering the egyptian pronunciation of the letter qaf - as a glottal stop instead of an emphatic velar stop - one may think that the k in maksum is related to such a difference in pronunciation.

Last, the arabic counterpart of turkish masum is: معصوم
which is pronounced as mʕsˁuːm


Thank You,
Odgar


----------



## Odgar Ap Wycglaffhelwyr

capricorn00 said:


> ...and I found it offending and rude that the word "nescience" is used especially by a person whose native language is not Turkish and religion is not Islam.



I may not be a native of the Turkish language, but after 8 years spent in Turkey, my Turkish is even better than my Welsh - besides, it's my language of everyday communication outside the school campus.

My religious belief is none of your bussiness. I just found your approach to Islam quite offensive, and, as I know what you wrote is not true, I came to the conclusion that your portion relies on your nescience. I am pretty well educated in Arabic, Persian, Sufism and Islam - and I continue my education as a literature student.

Teşekkürler,
Odgar


----------



## capricorn00

Bir şey değil... Madem Türkçen ana dilinden iyiymiş daha iyi anlatabilmek için Türkçe yazayım:

.İslama hakaret edip etmediğimi anlayamadığına göre bu konuyu tartışmayacağım. 
.Senin dini inanışın beni hiç ilgilendirmiyor, konu masumiyet. Kız çocukların ergenlikten sonra saçlarını örtme zorunluluğunun neden gerekli görüldüğünü düşün, yazdıklarımı daha kolay anlayabilirsin. 
.Burada bir kelime üzerinde tartışılıyordu, kırıcı ifadelere gerek yoktu. Ben de bunu belirtmek istedim.


----------

