# honi soit qui mal y pense / honni soit qui mal y pense



## charlie2

*Moderator note: multiple threads merged to create this one*

Hi everyone,
My dictionary tells me "Honni soit qui mal y pense" is a French idiom. The other day I was reading about the Garters here.
Why is it sometimes _Honni_ and sometimes _honi_?
And for the French text, it is here.
Thank you.
Edit : Oops, the title looks stupid. I typed in un "n" de plus for one of them.
Re-edit: Apparently I have got it fixed.


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## Eddie

Hello, my friend!

I've never seen it spelled with one _n _; and the dictionary doesn't show it being spelled as such. French people make spelling mistakes too. That seems to be the case with your citation.



> *HONNI*, -IE, part. passé et adj.
> *I. http://part/*_Part__. passé _de _honnir_*.
> *II. http://adjectif/*_Adjectif_
> *A. http://emploi/*_Emploi__ épithète _ou _attribut. _Qui est méprisé et condamné en tant que source d'un effet social d'opprobre. Anton. _honoré, loué, prisé. __Des personnages honnis; un gouvernement honni. __Mon uniforme de garde national, dans ce moment de désastre, était honni, ma personne maltraitée _(LAS CASES, _Mémor. Ste-Hélène, _t. 1, 1823, p. 218). _Ménuel fut au désespoir, et sa douleur passa pour de l'hypocrisie et de la lâcheté. Honni, bafoué dans toute la ville, il fut poursuivi par le père de Perret comme ayant fabriqué une pièce fausse _(STENDHAL, _L. Leuwen, _t. 1, 1835, p. 152) :
> Pourquoi faut-il ici encore, et faut-il donc une fois de plus, que les institutions militaires, tant *honnies*, soient une fois de plus données en exemple à nos institutions civiles, si triomphantes.
> PÉGUY, _Argent, _1913, p. 1275. _Emploi__ subst. _Personne qui est honnie. _Chanter avec un cœur heureux devant les spoliés et les honnis! _(BARRÈS, _Colline insp., _1913, p. 197).
> 
> *B. http://emploi/*_Emploi__ performatif, littér. _*Honni soit *+ subst. [Formule servant à honnir la réalité désignée par le subst.] _Honni soit le baptême! Honni l'Eucharistie! Honni le mariage! Honni le viatique! Damnation sur la tête qui reçoit l'eau, sur la main qui la verse! _(FLAUB., _Tentation, _1849, p. 281). _Honnis soient ceux qui cherchent avant tout dans la vie le confort _(GIDE, _Journal, _1935, p. 1237).
> _En__ partic. __Honni soit qui mal y pense. _Devise en français figurant sur l'emblème de l'Ordre (anglais) de la Jarretière. _L'un d'eux _[_un fauteuil_] _est surmonté de petits bronzes dorés, de petites figures et de la devise de la Jarretière : _Honni soit qui mal y pense




Sorry... no picture this time. On ne le permet plus. Dommage!

Doudou


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## Lakeview

Eddie said:
			
		

> Hello, my friend!
> 
> I've never seen it spelled with one _n _; and the dictionary doesn't list it spelled as such. French people make spelling mistakes too. That seems to be the case with your citation.


 
Interestingly enough, on the emblems of the Order, 'Honi' is spelled with only one 'n'. Maybe that spelling was correct when the Order was founded (in the 14th century).

http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/Page490.asp


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## Agnès E.

Bonjour Charlie,
"Honni soit qui mal y pense" is a quote from one of our kings called François 1er in the beginning of 16th century. 
He was the first king to try to establish a proper French spelling and impose one of the several languages spoken in his kingdom (i.e., French) as his kingdom's official language.
Before him, there was no real spelling regulations and people could write according to their knowledge, feelings, links with their own mother language, etc...
Nowadays, the verb "honnir" takes two n. But this word comes from the Frank word _haunjan, _according to my Robert dictionary. This could perhaps explain the first (and now wrong) spelling.


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## charlie2

Agnes E. said:
			
		

> Bonjour Charlie,
> Before him, there was no real spelling regulations and people could write according to their knowledge, feelings, links with their own mother language, etc...


Et moi qui devrais apprendre la langue français maintenant!


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## Eddie

Charlie,

You're not to blame for anything. The mistake in spelling was made by a 14th century Englishman who was probably cutting class on the day his French teacher was teaching the verb _honnir_.

My mistake was in falsely accusing a Frenchman of not knowing how to spell. You see, we all make mistakes. You don't have to start learning French, you already know it.

Doudou


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## Cath.S.

charlie2 said:
			
		

> Et moi qui devrais apprendre la langue français*e* maintenant!


Excuse-moi Charlie, je ne pouvais pas laisser passer ça ! Mais il s'agit certainement d'une faute de frappe...


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## charlie2

egueule said:
			
		

> Excuse-moi Charlie, je ne pouvais pas laisser passer ça ! Mais il s'agit certainement d'une faute de frappe...


"It's certainly the work of a French student who has cut the class on agreement of adjectives with gender," said one of those French teachers reading this thread.


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## Eddie

Et moi je fais toujours des fautes de frappe. (Merci, Egueule. Tu m'as appris un nouveau mot.)


Doudou


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## Didier_S

Selon le site officiel de la Couronne d'Angleterre, "Honi soit qui mal y pense" s'écrit avec un seul _n_ dans la devise de l'ordre de la Jaretière, comme en 1348 (fondation de l'Ordre). Cela ferait allusion à une parole du roi Édouard III remettant la jarretière de sa maîtresse la comtesse de Salysbury (1347). Il en fit une décoration l'année suivante.

source : www.royal.gov.uk

"Honni" et "honnir" sont rares en français actuel.


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## kerstin

Hi,

Fredrik the great is supposed to have uttered: Honni soit qui mal y panse
I would like to know the meaning and if possible why he said it.

Kerstin


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## timpeac

Welcome Kerstin.

It is actually "pense" not "panse", and it means "reviled be he who thinks badly of it".

Don't know the history of it though - or what the "it" refers to - I expect someone else can help there.


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## kerstin

Yes, I know that expression, it was made by Edward III when his lady dropped her garder in the ball room and it was made the motto of the orden of the garder.

This is supposed to be panse and said by Frederik the great, living 4 centuries later.

Kerstin


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## Jean-Michel Carrère

please note : the order of the Gar*t*er


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## timpeac

Also "orde*r*"

It's definitely "pense" not "panse" today though. I believe it is the motto of the British royal family, so I used to think that it must mean reviled be he who thinks badly of the monarchy, but that's just a guess.

I don't understand the link between "panse" and "garter". Does or did "panse" mean "garter"?


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## charlie2

There was a discussion on this. It is here. http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=26067&highlight=honnis


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## Jean-Michel Carrère

Recommended further reading :

Honni soit qui mal y pense ! 
(1347)

C'est au cours d'un bal que la Comtesse de Salisbury, maîtresse du roi d'Angleterre Edouard III, perdit lors d'une danse la jarretière bleue qui maintenait son bas. Edouard III s'empressa de la ramasser et de la lui rendre. Devant les sourires entendus et railleurs de l'assemblée, le roi se serait écrié en français, alors langue officielle de la cour d'Angleterre : "Messieurs, honni soit qui mal y pense ! Ceux qui rient en ce moment seront un jour très honorés d'en porter une semblable, car ce ruban sera mis en tel honneur que les railleurs eux-mêmes le rechercheront avec empressement."
Dès le lendemain, le roi aurait institué l'Ordre très noble de la Jarretière (the most noble Order of the Garter), ordre de chevalerie qui reste aujourd'hui encore un des ordres les plus prestigieux dans le monde. Son emblême est une jarretière bleue sur fond or, sur laquelle est inscrit la devise "Honni soit qui mal y pense". Ayant pour grand maître le roi d'Angleterre, cet ordre rassemblait à l'origine 13 compagnons. En 1805, le nombre de membres fut étendu à 25, qui se réunissent chaque 23 avril, jour de la saint George, dans la chapelle Saint George du château de Windsor.


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## josh

In this phrase, is "honi" a participle? And if yes, from which verb?


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## Agnès E.

Bonjour Josh,
Cela vient du verbe *honnir* (il y a en fait deux _n_), qui signifie, d'après le dictionnaire Robert : Dénoncer, vouer au mépris public de façon à couvrir de honte.


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## josh

Merci beucoup!


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## DearPrudence

So by the way, how would you translate that phrase (though it's written on some walls and ceilings in England, not all English people know what it means).
Thanks


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## josh

DearPrudence said:
			
		

> So by the way, how would you translate that phrase (though it's written on some walls and ceilings in England, not all English people know what it means).
> Thanks


"Shamed be who thinks ill of it", referred to "God and my [natural] right" (Dieu et mon droit), that is the motto on the coats of the royal arms.


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## gm9617d

Evil be, who evil thinks.

Or alternatively according to " 1066 and all that "

Honey, your silk stocking is hanging down.

GerryGM


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## panjandrum

This is the motto of the English Order of the Garter.



> The origin of the emblem of the Order, a blue garter, ... is said to have been inspired by an incident which took place whilst the King danced with Joan, Countess of Salisbury.
> 
> The Countess's garter fell to the floor and after the King retrieved it he tied it to his own leg. Those watching this were apparently amused, but the King admonished them saying, 'Honi soit qui mal y pense' (Shame on him who thinks this evil). This then became the motto of the Order.


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## Trizia

*Honi soit qui mal y pense* 

Have been told this is "old French".  Anyone have a good English translation?

Merci,
Patrizia


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## nopal

Trizia said:
			
		

> *Honi soit qui mal y pense*
> Have been told this is "old French".  Anyone have a good English translation?
> Patrizia


 BONSOIR TRIZIA 
good translation ? let's try one 
Honni , i think got 2 "n" honnir is an old french verb for /hate someone /something 
 Honni *Honi *soit /that one must be hate  *EDIT :error *
qui mal y pense /who is badly thinking of ....
Means / we have to hate one who discredit /this /that/us ...
Hope my tiny try helps !
René


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## noddy

"shame on him who thinks evil thoughts" perhaps


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## Outsider

"Damn anyone who thinks ill of it."


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## CARNESECCHI

Hello,
"Disgrace for he who sees malice in here"
Hope it helps!


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## amely

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honi_soit_qui_mal_y_pense
Have a look at what it says here, 
"Honi soit qui mal y pense" (which means "Shame on him who thinks ill of it")


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## edwingill

evil unto him who evil thinks.


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## john_riemann_soong

I don't think it's a spelling error - it's Middle French, there's bound to be spelling changes.


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## Aurélie L.

Hello,

How would you translate "Honni" (with 1 or 2 "n"  ;°] )  in english ?


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## archijacq

"evil be to him who evil thinks"
honnir: to disgrace, dishonour
honni de tous: spurned by all


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## Aurélie L.

Thanks Archijacq !


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## Paf le chien

john_riemann_soong said:


> I don't think it's a spelling error - it's Middle French, there's bound to be spelling changes.



I agree with john_riemann_soong: one cannot speak of _spelling errors_ in Old/Middle French as there was no rules to apply (and it was before printing even existed, so everything was hand-copied)!

It is from those times we have "won" illogical spellings, with double consonnants in some cases but not others, etc.

An diacritics (accents/cedilla) was not really used (or only sparsly). They come in their modern form far later...

So to sum up: "honi" and "honni" makes no real difference... the modern usage is to write it with two 'n' but why ? No one knows nor will really know...


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## coolj

I am not sure what it means. 

Does this mean other people may think ill of the lady's garter?

or the fact that she dropped it?

or some other insinuations about her?

Opinions please.


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## orlando09

Well if her garter fell off at some fancy royal ball I guess she found it embarrassing. Although "evil" is a common translation, I'm not sure it's quite right (in modern English anyway). A modern translation might be - "anyone who thinks there's something shameful or amusing about this lady dropping her garter should be ashamed of themselves". 

the one "n" was just the spelling of the day


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## coolj

So, as simple as that..
Being such a famous  quote, I thought there might be something more 
to it. 

Thanks anyway.


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## Pedro y La Torre

Honi soit qui mal y pense = Shame be to him who thinks evil of it.


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## broglet

As I understand it, some of those who saw the King stoop to retrieve the garter considered his motive to be more lascivious than chivalrous (perhaps he glanced upward at a critical moment). 

The meaning is "shame on him who thinks _badly _of it" (I think 'evil' is going too far) and not, as commonly mistranslated "evil to him who evil thinks". 

[...]


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## panjandrum

I would caution against trying to take a literal translation of a motto such as this.
Mottoes are chosen partly for their meaning, partly for their sound, and partly to be enigmatic.
They also need to fit neatly onto the coat of arms in letters big enough to read.

So no matter what _honi soit qui mal y pense_ ought to mean, the motto of the Order of the Garter is, in English, _Shame on him who thinks this evil_.


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## broglet

panjandrum said:


> So no matter what _honi soit qui mal y pense_ ought to mean, the motto of the Order of the Garter is, in English, _Shame on him who thinks this evil_.


If you are suggesting that the Order of the Garter has an official English motto, please let us know your authority for this. Otherwise the best that can be done is to attempt an enlightened translation from _honi soit qui mal y pense_, as people have been doing here.


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## hoshiko

broglet said:


> As I understand it, some of those who saw the King stoop to retrieve the garter considered his motive to be more lascivious than chivalrous (perhaps he glanced upward at a critical moment).


 That is what I always understood "mal y pense" = "pense à mal" = euphism for "pense que c'est sexuel".
As French native, I'd rather let English natives think of a better fitting translation.

[...]


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## panjandrum

broglet said:


> If you are suggesting that the Order of the Garter has an official English motto, please let us know your authority for this. Otherwise the best that can be done is to attempt an enlightened translation from _honi soit qui mal y pense_, as people have been doing here.


If you care to follow the link I provided in my posts - click on the hot-linked Order of the Garter
 - you will be taken to this website:
http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/page4878.asp

That's the site I quoted and referenced in January last year - see post #10 - and again in post #16

I think it is a reasonable authority.


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## Drechuin

panjandrum said:


> If you care to follow the link I provided in my posts - click on the hot-linked Order of the Garter
> - you will be taken to this website:
> http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/page4878.asp




The site doesn't provide an official English motto, but a translation of the official French motto.
It's a bit different.


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## broglet

Drechuin said:


> The site doesn't provide an official English motto, but a translation of the official French motto.
> It's a bit different.


c'est vrai en plus, ce que Drechuin dit


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## panjandrum

Aw come on guys.
How much more official would you like?
Are you expecting Her Majesty Herself to reply on this thread?
If you are not prepared to accept what is published on www.royal.gov.uk you are way beyond any kind of logic that I could ever understand.

Have you a better offer?


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## espoac

I found this phrase on the side of a dishtowel. If it helps it's a souvenir from Buckingham Palace so it may have something to do with British royalty. Other than its meaning I'd like to know its significance in relation to the British crown. So far I've gotten "thinks it's evil" out of "mal y pense" but I can't get the first part of the phrase because of "Honis" which must be either Old French or a proper noun.


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## Franglais1969

Oh crikey.  This is an extremely old phrase, the correct tramslation of which has been discussed over centuries.

I am sure if you do a search on google you will find 1000s of discussions on it.


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## Canaveral

Hi Espoac,

"Honi (or Honni) soit qui mal y pense" is the motto of "the Order of the Garter" - pinnacle of the British honours system !
Meaning : "Shame upon him who thinks evil of it"


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