# בן כמה הכלב שלך?‏



## Gwunderi

שלום

Can you use "ben kama?" also for animals?

"בן כמה הכלב שלך?"

I found many results searching with Google, so I think it is correct? Or is there also an other way to ask how old an animal is?

I also found, talking of a dog: "הוא בן משפחה חדש"
What does that exactly mean?

In English you can say: "He/it is our new family member" (presenting it with pride)
An old lady may laugh: "He/it is my son" (meaning it's sort of compensation for a son)

What meaning does it have in the above Hebrew sentence?

תודה רבה!
Gwunderi

Edit: I found just now that "בן משפחה" means "family member" - didn't know it. So now the meaning is clear, it's the first : )


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## anipo

Yes, you can ask "בן כמה הכלב שלך?". It sounds absolutely natural.


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## amikama

Gwunderi said:


> Can you use "ben kama?" also for animals?


Absolutely yes, and not only for humans and animals...

אני גר בבניין בן 30 שנה. ליד הבניין עומד עץ בן מאה שנה.‏
מחשב בן 5 שנים כבר נחשב למיושן.‏
היקום הוא בן מיליארדי שנים.‏


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## Gwunderi

amikama said:


> Absolutely yes, and not only for humans and animals...
> 
> אני גר בבניין בן 30 שנה. ליד הבניין עומד עץ בן מאה שנה.‏
> מחשב בן 5 שנים כבר נחשב למיושן.‏
> היקום הוא בן מיליארדי שנים.‏



Oh, really?
I find העץ בן מאה שנה particularly funny, a living beeing : ) The others sound strange, but this one is funny.

I had to look up only for three words: נחדב למיושן means it's considered old, or "antiquated". And יקום is the universe, devined it from the context and the dictionary confirms it : )

One question: Why do you use שנה in the singular in the first two sentences, and שנים in the other ones?

@anipo
I answered you too, but a new thread was opened as you know : )

Thank you a lot
Gwunderi


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## amikama

Gwunderi said:


> One question: Why do you use שנה in the singular in the first two sentences, and שנים in the other ones?


For numbers above 10 you can use either singular or plural (‏30 שנים / 30 שנה), although plural is preferred in most of the cases. I think we discussed this once, but I don't find the thread.
I used the singular form in the first two sentences simply because it sounded better to me


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## Gwunderi

amikama said:


> For numbers above 10 you can use either singular or plural (‏30 שנים / 30 שנה), although plural is preferred in most of the cases. I think we discussed this once, but I don't find the thread.
> I used the singular form in the first two sentences simply because it sounded better to me



So that's the reason, thanks.
And what sounds better to a native speaker is mostly more reliable than an elaborated explication of someone who learned the language further on in his life.
Although there are exceptions, it's sometimes scary what and how native speakers write in forums, depends also on the forum - and surely not here 

תודה רבה, Gwunderi


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## Gwunderi

Hi, I  just came across an other example you surely all know

כול עוד בלבב...
התקוה בת שנות אלפיים


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## amikama

Indeed, you can use בן X שנים on anything that has "age", be it a real thing or an abstract concept like 'hope'


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## origumi

Gwunderi said:


> התקוה בת שנות אלפיים


I think it's similar yet different. התקווה בת שנות אלפיים means "the aspiration that lasts for 2000 years" rather than "whose age is 2000 years".
בת here is for "with the characteristic", like בן אלמוות, בן עירי, similarly to Arabic אבו ארבע עיון ("father of four eyes", for one with spectacles).


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## Haskol

origumi said:
			
		

> התקווה בת שנות אלפיים means "the aspiration that lasts for 2000 years" rather than "whose age is 2000 years".


I disagree. The song talks about the hope that has existed for 2000 years since the beginning of the exile, not about a hope that can survive for two thousand years. At least, that's how I always understood it.


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## origumi

We both understand it as the (definite) hope / aspiration that lasted ("lasts" when it was authored) for 2000 years. But as I see it, the 2000 years is the hope's duration, not age. That is, if we're taking the time axis, it's an interval and not a point in time.


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## Gwunderi

origumi said:


> I think it's similar yet different. התקווה בת שנות אלפיים means "the aspiration that lasts for 2000 years" rather than "whose age is 2000 years".
> בת here is for "with the characteristic", like בן אלמוות, בן עירי, similarly to Arabic אבו ארבע עיון ("father of four eyes", for one with spectacles).



Oh, I had already prepared an answer and now I see that there are two more in the meantime : )

Wikipedia also translates it with: "The hope two thousand years old" and even here:
"Then our hope - the two-thousand-year-old hope - will not be lost:"
http://stateofisrael.com/anthem/
Also in English I hear only a slight shift of meaning if I say "the aspiration that lasts (now) for 2000 years" or "the 2000 years old aspiration" - maybe as a native speaker you hear a slight different meaning.

I like the father of four eyes  here it's used in a more figurative sense.
But what form is עיון? I only know עין or the dual form עיניים.

I also found אלמוות means "immortality", but I don't really grasp the meaning here, maybe the sons of Zeus, or some hero?
And בן עירי, think it could mean an inhabitant of the town I live (of my town).

Anyway, תודה רבה


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## amikama

origumi said:


> I think it's similar yet different. התקווה בת שנות אלפיים means "the aspiration that lasts for 2000 years" rather than "whose age is 2000 years".
> בת here is for "with the characteristic", like בן אלמוות, בן עירי, similarly to Arabic אבו ארבע עיון ("father of four eyes", for one with spectacles).





Haskol said:


> I disagree. The song talks about the hope that has existed for 2000 years since the beginning of the exile, not about a hope that can survive for two thousand years. At least, that's how I always understood it.



I think both interpretations are valid, as בן X may denote either age (as in ילד בן ארבע) or duration (as in פגישה בת שעתיים). The verse התקווה בת שנות אלפיים is somewhat ambiguous, and could be understood either way. Yet, like Haskol I've always understood it as "the 2,000-year old hope" rather than "the hope that has lasted for 2,000 years".


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## origumi

Gwunderi said:


> In English I hear only a slight shift of meaning if I say "the aspiration that lasts (now) for 2000 years" or "the 2000 years old aspiration"


See amikama's recent post above, which I agree with.



> But what form is עיון? I only know עין or the dual form עיניים.


It's an Arabic expression, therefore Arabic plural. In Hebrew we borrowed it as אבו ארבע, omitting the עיון part.



> I also found אלמוות means "immortality", but I don't really grasp the meaning here, maybe the sons of Zeus, or some hero?


אלמוות is indeed immortality, therefore בן אלמוות is immortal. It demonstrates how in Hebrew "son of immortality" = "immortal".



> And בן עירי, think it could mean an inhabitant of the town I live (of my town).


בן עירי is one whose origin is in the same city as mine. In current Hebrew this expression looks old-fashioned, probably because Israel is small and we are all connected technologically so geographical boundaries are less important. Yet I remember how my late grandfather was delighted when meeting a בן עיר, usually someone of his (and Methuselah's) age, who immigrated to Israel from the same region as himself (not necessarily the same town, same county was enough for my grandpa to call the other guy בן עיר).


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## origumi

עוד הערה על "בת שנות אלפיים": אם ננסה לבדוק מה כוונותו של נפתלי הרץ אימבר כשכתב את המילים - ניכשל, משום שאצלו לא נזכרו אלפיים השנים. וגם לאחר השינוי הראשון, הנוסח שהתקבל הוא "התקווה שנות אלפיים" ולא "התקווה בת שנות אלפיים". מאוחר יותר הגענו למילים הידועות כיום וצרובות על פי חוק.


> את הטיוטה הראשונה של השיר "תקוותנו" כתב נפתלי הרץ אימבר בשנת תרל"ז - 1877, ובמהלך השנים הוא הוסיף לשיר בתים וערך בו שינויים: אימבר נהג לקרוא את השיר באוזני אנשי המושבות הראשונות, ובהשראת הקריאה ותגובות השומעים היה מתקן ומוסיף, עד שהוציא מתחת ידו שיר ארוך ובו תשעה בתים. בסופו של דבר, רק שני הבתים הראשונים של השיר הם שהיו ברבות הימים להמנון - "התקווה". התיקונים האחרונים בנוסח השיר נעשו בידי ד"ר י"ל מטמן הכהן, מייסדה של גימנסיה הרצליה, בשנת תרס"ה - 1905: את המילים "התקווה הנושנה" החליף כהן במילים "התקווה שנות אלפיים" ואת השורה "לשוב לארץ אבותינו, עיר בה דויד חנה" המיר הכהן במשפט "להיות עם חופשי בארצנו, ארץ ציון וירושלים".


http://lexicon.cet.ac.il/wf/wfTerm.aspx?id=752


> המלחין חנינא קרצ'בסקי (1877-1925) הוא האחראי לתיקון האחרון למילות התקווה - תוספת המילה "בת" (שנות אלפיים) . תיקון אחרון זה נעשה בתום מלחמת עולם ראשונה, 1917, כאשר השלים קרצ'בסקי את העיבוד למקהלה שכתב להמנון. תיקון זה נעשה לאחר מותו של אימבר.


http://citizenship.cet.ac.il/FileViewer.aspx?nFileID=8368


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## Haskol

Now that I think of it, is שנות אלפיים even grammatically correct? Is there anything similar to it? I can think of שנות דור, but not of any phrase that has a number as סומך.


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## origumi

Haskol said:


> Is there anything similar to it?


Yes there is, but... all 20th century examples are apparently influenced by התקווה.

דּוֹלֵף, דּוֹלֵף הַדֶּלֶף,
דּוֹלֵף וּמְיַבֵּב;
עָבְרוּ עָלַי שְׁנוֹת אֶלֶף,
שְׁנוֹת אֶלֶף שֶׁבַּלֵּב.

שירי רחל ו'כוכבים בחוץ'
כמו לפני שנות אלף בקיבוץ;


Also: אחד העם loved the expression שנות-מאה for מאה שנים, for example in his tract לא זו הדרך. He's contemporary of Imber and earlier than the change in התקווה, so this could have been correct high-register form at the time.


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## Haskol

Interesting, but odd. Any idea where they could have gotten this from?


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## Gwunderi

Thank you for your answers (I was absent till now).
I also wondered about the form שנות אלפיים but think it's too early for me to know all "strange" forms : ) And can't obviously follow the whole discussion. But I also like שנות-מאה, no idea why, it simply sounds good 

תודה רבה
Gwunderi


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