# Egyptian Arabic:  Future Negative



## Josh_

I was thinking about this recently.  Generally speaking, what is the most common way to negate the future: putting the negative particle 'mish' in front in front of the verb -- mish Haktib -- or making a verb sandwich (as I sometimes say) with ma...sh -- maHaktibsh?


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## elroy

Speaking as a non-Egyptian (albeit with lots of exposure to the Egyptian dialect), I would say that the "mish" version is much more common - and also more neutral.  I think "ma7aktibsh" sounds more forceful (think rebellious child: "I *won't* write!").

But maybe I'm being influenced by my own dialect.  In Palestinian Arabic, it's impossible to make a verb sandwich with the future: you have to say "mish ra7 aktub."


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## Josh_

In my own speech patterns I have gotten used to using 'mish' with the verb, and truth be told, I can't recall ever hearing the verb sandwich form.  So I also am under the impression that the 'mish' form is more common.  Anyway, I was going through one of my old Egyptian Arabic books recently and came across that lesson and thought to myself, "I wonder which is more common?"  I asked one of professors (who is a native Egyptian) and to my surprise he said that the 'ma+verb+sh' form was more common.  So I figured I'd ask here to get more opinions.


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## cherine

The usual negation pattern in Egyptian Arabic is "*ma+verb+sh*" in the past and the present:
ma katabtesh ما كتبتش
ma baktebsh ما بكتبش

ma 7abbetsh ما حبيتش
ma ba7ebbesh ما بحبش 

The other pattern is "*mesh+verb+sh*", for the present and the future
mesh bakteb مش بكتب
mesh 7akteb مش حكتب

The "mesh" pattern is the more common for the future tense, while it can sometimes sound as "childish" when used with the present (mesh ba7ebb el laban = I don't like milk) sounds like a child speaking, while a "grown up" would say: maba7ebbesh el laban.
 But this doesn't mean we don't use the "mesh+verb+sh" with the present, only that it's less common.



Josh_ said:


> I asked one of professors (who is a native Egyptian) and to my surprise he said that the 'ma+verb+sh' form was more common. So I figured I'd ask here to get more opinions.


Really ?! This is strange. Because, to me at least, saying "ma7aktebsh" is a bit heavy to the ear, while the smoother way is to say: mesh 7akteb.
But this doesn't mean the other pattern is wrong.


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## Josh_

I also thought the 'ma+future verb+sh' sounds a bit heavy.  I'm aware that 'ma+verb+sh' is the most common for the present and try to use that form most of the time, but I will sometimes revert to the 'mish + verb' for ease of pronunciation (as a non-native speaker) especially if its a verb I don't use much and there are pronouns and/or prepositions in use. I always use the 'ma+verb+sh' form for the past tense as I didn't think any other form were possible.  I mean you can you can use 'mish' with the past tense but it has the meaning of a question of wonderment -- "mish 2ult innak ruHt il-madrasa? (didn't you say you went to the school)" -- and is not used in general negative statements.


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## suma

It's funny I remember a teacher (not Egyptian) Sudanese speaking in a sub-standard MSA saying


......أنا سوف لا​


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## cherine

I don't know if there's a clear rule against "sawfa la", but to my ear it's a very heavy structure.
More important, I don't see a reason to go for a longer form when we have a concise "lan" لن which is only used to indicate the future negative.


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## emiway

Hey , I am Emi from Egypt , here we don't use "ma 7a verb sh " alot for the future.
May be its used in Upper Egypt, but in original Egyptian Arabic we use mesh + verb to the future
and personaly I use ma+verb+sh for the past and the present easly.


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## Ghabi

Taken from this thread:


إسكندراني said:


> All four options sound fine to me and largely seem down to personal choice.
> مش عاوز اروح
> مش عايز اروح
> ما عاوزش اروح
> ما عايزش اروح - probably the one I'd use myself



Hi Iskandarani, so do you also say ماحكتبش?


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## londonmasri

Could I also ask why sometimes I hear 'ma + ha + verb'.

ma-ha-ti2dar tetkallem

I am pretty sure this kind of pattern was used for the negative.

Can anyone confirm?


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## إسكندراني

Ghabi said:


> Hi Iskandarani, so do you also say ماحكتبش?


ma7aktebsh
ma7akteblaksh
ma7akteblehaash
ma7akteblehomsh


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## cherine

Iskandarani, the last few structure sound a bit too complext to me. I'm glad we have the other option of
مش حكتبلك، مش حكتبلهم، مش حكتبلها ... 


londonmasri said:


> Could I also ask why sometimes I hear 'ma + ha + verb'.
> 
> ma-ha-ti2dar tetkallem
> 
> I am pretty sure this kind of pattern was used for the negative.
> 
> Can anyone confirm?


This structure is preceded by عمرك (you'll never). But it's not used alone.


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## londonmasri

What about this لا هسلم بالمكتوب ولا هرضى ابات مغلوب ?


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## clevermizo

^This I think you need to have two things you're negating. It's the equivalent of "I'll neither do X nor do Y." When you have a succession of things there's a preference for لا.... ولا..... ولا . At least this is my experience in Levantine and appears true for Egyptian as well.


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## espumaje

londonmasri said:


> What about this لا هسلم بالمكتوب ولا هرضى ابات مغلوب ?



If I may ask, what does it mean:" لا هسلم بالمكتوب ولا هرضى ابات مغلوب"?


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## Timmy123

I think I remember some sort of commotion caused by these lyrics which basically mean (my attempt): I won't hand over/give in to what has been written nor will I agree to go sleep defeated.

I can't remember who the artist was.


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## cherine

clevermizo said:


> This I think you need to have two things you're negating. It's the equivalent of "I'll neither do X nor do Y." When you have a succession of things there's a preference for لا.... ولا..... ولا . At least this is my experience in Levantine and appears true for Egyptian as well.


You're right.  
I would like to add that both ح and even ع can be used instead of هـ to indicate the future. I think this was mentioned in another thread about the future tense, so this is mainly a reminder.


Timmy123 said:


> I think I remember some sort of commotion caused by these lyrics which basically mean (my attempt): I won't hand over/give in to what has been written nor will I agree to go sleep defeated.
> 
> I can't remember who the artist was.


It's from the song سَوّاح of عبد الحليم حافظ . And this line (more precisely the part about لا هسلم بالمكتوب) caused commotion because it's a rebellion against the will of God.


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## londonmasri

clevermizo said:


> This I think you need to have two things you're negating. It's the equivalent of "I'll neither do X nor do Y." When you have a succession of things there's a preference for لا.... ولا..... ولا . At least this is my experience in Levantine and appears true for Egyptian as well.


 
What about this 
والله مهقلك تاني 
ولله مهقول إلا الحق


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## إسكندراني

قسماً لن أقول لك ثانيةً
قسماً لن أقول لك إلّا الحقّ


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## londonmasri

Thanks eskandarany. 

But my question is, here the _m....sh_ negation is not used. Why is not والله مش هقول الا الحق. In a previous post above it would appear that the only time a future tense is used without the ش is when using the construction عمرك.

However there are other instances where ما + verb is used. I am trying to find out all these instances.

So far we have:
عمرك + verb 
لا هاعمل ولا هعمل (several negations)
And now we have والله ما هعمل

For this example is this a constant 'rule'?

Are there any other cases where the future negative is used without the ش?

شكرا


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## إسكندراني

I think we've discussed it before somewhere. قسماً ماحعمل كذا is a set construction to convert ماحعملش كذا=مشحعمل كذا into a قسم.


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## londonmasri

Thanks.
I have a question, please confirm if I am correct with these assumptions:

1)والله لهفضحك   = هفضحك
2)والله مهفضحك   = مش هفضحك 

Are these correct?
-------------------------------------------

Here is another instance which I would like to check on.

We will not be men, unless we speak the truth
منبقاش رجاله *لو مقلنا* الحق

Is this the correct way to say this?


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## إسكندراني

londonmasri said:


> والله لافضحك   = هفضحك
> والله مهفضحك   = مش هفضحك
> 
> منبقاش رجاله *لو مقلناش* الحق


Or
ما نبقاش رجّالة إن ماقلنا الحقّ

There's also a threat construction: إن ما ورّيتك يا فلان.


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## cherine

londonmasri said:


> But my question is, here the _m....sh_ negation is not used. Why is not والله مش هقول الا الحق. In a previous post above it would appear that the only time a future tense is used without the ش is when using the construction عمرك.


The key word in that expression عمرك and the other ones you mentioned is in the ما . With it, we don't add the sheen.
عمري ما رحت فرنسا، عمرها ما عملت حاجة وحشة، عمرنا ما خرجنا سوا ... (Edit: oh sorry, these verbs are in the past, here's the future:
عمري ما حروح، عمرها ما حتعمل كدة، عمرنا ما حنخرج ).
And also والله ما حجيب سيرة الموضوع دا، وربنا ما حتكلِّم معاك تاني ....

You can of course go for the مش حـ if you want to, but it doesn't sound very right.


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