# τοῦ νοῦ



## soplamocos

Χαιρετε. I have some questions about this sentence:

Ἡ γλῶσσά σου μὴ προτρεχέτω τοῦ νοῦ

First, I think the verb is in imperative, in third person. Is the subject "Ἡ γλῶσσά"?
Second, what is the syntactic function of "τοῦ νοῦ"? Is this genitive required by the verb?
Third, could it be translated as: "Doesn't your words overtake the mind"?


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## Scholiast

Greetings all


soplamocos said:


> First, I think the verb is in imperative, in third person . Is the subject "Ἡ γλῶσσά"?
> Second, what is the syntactic function of "τοῦ νοῦ"? Is this genitive required by the verb?
> Third, could it be translated as: "Doesn't your words overtake the mind"?


This is classical rather than modern Greek, where a simple "genitive of comparison" can be used in such contexts, hence τοῦ νοῦ.
soplamocos' literal translation is almost right: "Let not the tongue run ahead of the mind", but in more idiomatic English, "Think before you speak".

Σ


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## soplamocos

Thank you. Next week I have a test and I'm a little afraid from this third person imperative, because it doesn't exist in Spanish and confuses me. ^^


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## Scholiast

Greetings again


soplamocos said:


> because it doesn't exist in Spanish and confuses me


It does not exist in normal modern English either, and we have to use auxiliary verbs (usually "May [e.g. the force be with you]", "May God have mercy..." or "Let..." as in my suggestion in #2).

Σ


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## Perseas

It doesn't exist in modern Greek either.



soplamocos said:


> γλῶσσ*ά*


Just a small correction: It's γλῶσσ*α*; *α* is not accented.


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## Scholiast

χαῖρε ὦ Περσἐα


Perseas said:


> γλῶσσ*α*; *α* is not accented


Oh yes it is, when followed by the enclitic σου. Or rather, the accent of σου has been thrown back onto it.

Σ


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## Perseas

Scholiast said:


> χαῖρε ὦ Περσἐα
> 
> Oh yes it is, when followed by the enclitic σου. Or rather, the accent of σου has been thrown back onto it.
> 
> Σ


Hello Scholiast,

at least in modern Greek this happens when the antepenultimate syllable is accented, e.g. χάρισμά σου. Ι think the same applies to ancient Greek; however γλῶσσα is accented on the penultimate syllable. In any case, I am not sure about ancient Greek, I 'll have to check it.


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## Scholiast

Indeed, ὦριστε Perseus


Perseas said:


> however γλῶσσα is accented on the penultimate syllable...


But it is a circumflex accent, which on a long vowel (or diphthong) counts as accentuation on the first half of said vowel (as if it were γλόοσσα). Honest!

Σ


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## Perseas

Scholiast said:


> Indeed, ὦριστε Perseus
> 
> But it is a circumflex accent, which counts on a long vowel or (diphthong) as accentuation on the first half of said vowel (as if it were γλόοσσα). Honest!
> 
> Σ


You 're right then! I was influenced by the pronunciation and accentuation in modern Greek (γlόsa). Thank you!


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## apmoy70

I find peculiar the use of «νοῦ» instead of «νοός» in genitive, the noun belongs to the 3rd declension it's «νόος/νοῦς» (uncontracted/contracted) in nominative, and «νοός» in genitive.
If I had to make a guess I'd say that the phrase is probably Late Koine and not Classical Greek.


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## Scholiast

χαίρετ᾽ ὦ φίλοι



apmoy70 said:


> I find peculiar the use of «νοῦ» instead of «νοός» in genitive



apmoy had me worried for a moment.

But behold (from LSJ, courtesy of Perseus):
*νόος* , νόου, ὁ, Att. contr. *νοῦς* , *gen. νοῦ *[my emphasis].

But yes, the declension of νοῦς in classical Greek is fairly chaotic, as LSJ shows.

_pax_?

Σ


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## soplamocos

The phrase is from my handbook, it has a very complex quote system, with a lot of abreviatures and sadly some of them are not explained. In this case it says: "_Atr. por Dem. Phal. a Khilon, sent. 14 DK 1, p. 63, 32_" I think it means that the phrase is from_ Demetrius Phalereus_, who cites to _Khilon_, and it's quoted from the book DK 1 (¿?), in page 63, line 32.
Maybe the name of Demetrius or Khilon helps you to know if it's classic Greek or Koine. But it isn't relevant to me, I only share this information because I read your comment 

I got it! DK means: *D*iels, Hermann and *K*ranz, Walther, volume 1. ^^


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## Scholiast

Greetings again


soplamocos said:


> Demetrius or Khilon helps you to know if it's classic Greek or Koine


Yes indeed. Diels/Kranz, _Die Fragmente der Vorsokratiker_ is (still) the standard reference collection of the literary remnants of pre-Socratic Greek philosophers—or better, of those ancient Greek thinkers who were not significantly influenced by Plato. Demetrius of Phaleron (a deme, or suburb) of classical Athens was a former pupil of Aristotle who fancied himself as a philosopher too, but whose chief claim to fame is having ruled Athens for ten years on behalf of the Macedonians after the death of Alexander the Great (until he was kicked out in 307 BC). He was no saint and no great original thinker, but his Greek was certainly "classical" Attic rather than _koiné_.

Σ

Edited afterthought: I assume that "Atr. por Dem. Phal. a Khilon" means "attributed by Demetrius of Phal. to Khilon".


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## sotos

Perseas said:


> It doesn't exist in modern Greek either.


Yes, if you imagine the language separated in "modern" and "old". But we say "έστω", "τυποθήτω", υποτεθείστω, ζήτω κ.ά. Οι δικαστές γράφουν "κληθήτω". Those of us who have some relation with the church, we may chant a "πασαπνοάριον" :  "Πάσα πνοή *αινεσάτω* τον Κύριον". Of course, the moderns may "run ahead" with their 400 words.


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## Perseas

sotos said:


> Those of us who have some relation with the church, we may chant a "πασαπνοάριον" :  "Πάσα πνοή *αινεσάτω* τον Κύριον".


We may chant "Πάσα πνοή αινεσάτω τον Κύριον" but we don't speak like that.
You wouldn't say "γραφέτω" or "ακουέτω" in a conversation. Also, we may say "εν ψυχρώ", "εν λευκώ" or "πάση θυσία", but in modern Greek grammars the dative case is absent, as the imperative of the 3rd person is absent.

Edit:
Η προστακτική του τρίτου προσώπου σαφώς υπάρχει στα νέα ελληνικά, όπως αναφέρεις. Το ίδιο ισχύει και για στερεότυπες φράσεις με δοτική. Πρόκειται όμως για μεμονωμένες περιπτώσεις. Ούτε η προστακτική του τρίτου προσώπου ούτε η δοτική ανήκουν στο κλιτικό σύστημα της νέας ελληνικής. Αυτό εννοούσα.


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