# Spanish "fox"



## J.F. de TROYES

2- Me interesa también el origen de la palabra "zorro". He leido que viene del portugués. Así querría saber si " zorro" significa lo mismo que en español y si se conoce su etimología.

I am also interested in the origin of another word "zorro" ( fox) which is said to come from Portuguese. I also wonder about its etymology, as it does'nt go back to Latin "vulpes".

Gracias de antemano.


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## Kaschiller

First, remember the fox's color - redish-brown, fire like.
O.E. fox, from W.Gmc. *fukhs (cf. O.H.G. fuhs, O.N. foa, Goth. fauho)
Sounds to me like the latin L. focus "hearth," in V.L. "fire."
Romanian - foc, Italian - fuoco, Spanish - fuego.

Now, in Romanian - zori (accent on o) - dawn ( first light) , when the Sun's color is redish...
Could be that Zorro to be just that ( red as the sunrise )
Red Fox 

Fox Algonquian people, transl. Fr. renards, which itself may be a transl. of an Iroquoian term meaning "red fox people." Their name for themselves is /meškwahki:-haki/ "red earths."let me know what do you think...


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## SerinusCanaria3075

J.F. de TROYES said:


> 2- Me interesa también el origen de la palabra "zorro". He leido que viene del portugués. Así querría saber si " zorro" significa lo mismo que en español y si se conoce su etimología.


Me parece que en portugués es femenina "a raposa", quizás hay otra forma antigua; A ver si nos ayudan nuestros _irmãos_ brasileiros/portugueses.

I have no idea why a lot of Spanish animals/body parts didn't keep anything that sounds or looks close to Latin, maybe there's some Arab influence but I doubt it.
In Romanian there's also _Vulpe_ (f.) while Italian also has Volpe (f.), both feminine which makes me think Spanish wanted a *male* form, just like the word _Valley _comes from Latin _Vallis_ which in Romanian and Italian (vale/valle) it's feminine while *masculine* in Spanish (valle).

So _Ricardo LaVolpe_ = _Ricardo el Zorro_ in Spanish (allenatore argentino, per coloro che amano il calcio sudamericano; attualmente col _Velez_)


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## Frank06

Kaschiller said:


> First, remember the fox's color - redish-brown, fire like. O.E. fox, from W.Gmc. *fukhs (cf. O.H.G. fuhs, O.N. foa, Goth. fauho).
> Sounds to me like the latin L. focus "hearth," in V.L. "fire."
> Romanian - foc, Italian - fuoco, Spanish - fuego.


The Latin connection you give is very unlikely. If I am not wrong, PIE word-initial *p gives /p/ in Latin. But anyway, the question was about "zorro", not about the word "fox".



> Now, in Romanian - zori (accent on o) - down ( first light) , when the Sun's color is redish... Could be that Zorro to be just that ( red as the sunrise) Red Fox.


Could you give more information, please? 



> Fox Algonquian people, transl. Fr. renards, which itself may be a transl. of an Iroquoian term meaning "red fox people." Their name for themselves is /meškwahki:-haki/ "red earths."let me know what do you think...


This is off topic.

Groetjes,

Frank


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## Frank06

Hi,


SerinusCanaria3075 said:


> Me parece que en portugués es femenina "a raposa", quizás hay otra forma antigua


Geraldo da Cunha's _Dicionário etimológico_ gives "zorra 'raposa velha'. Do castelhano _zorra_." For zorrilho (familia do mustelídos, these chaps) he also refers to Castillian.

Three problems: 
- The dictionary doesn't dig deeper, as usual...
- Strictly speaking, a fox does not belong to the family of the mustelidae (but that's a minor problem).
- *If* this "zorro, zorrilho" is indeed the same word, then it doesn't clarify where the semantic shift happened, in Spanish or in Portuguese...

All in all, this is not a big help .

Groetjes,

Frank


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## robbie_SWE

> ...Now, in Romanian - zori (accent on o) - down ( first light) , when the Sun's color is redish...
> Could be that Zorro to be just that ( red as the sunrise )
> Red Fox...


 
I like the way you think!  But tracing _zorro_ to the Romanian *zori* (which in English would be translated as "daybreak") is unfortunately a quite improbable connection since it's uniquely Romanian. It's a funny thought though! 

 robbie


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## Maroseika

Kaschiller said:


> Now, in Romanian - zori (accent on o) - down ( first light) , when the Sun's color is redish...
> Could be that Zorro to be just that ( red as the sunrise )


In Romanian *zori* looks like Slavic loan (comp. Russian *заря*, Slovenian *zorja*).
Slavic word goes back to the same source as Ancient-Prussian sari - heat, Lith. žėrė́ti, žėriù - to sparkle and (conceivably) Greece χαροπoς - radiant (Max Vasmer). 
Slavic stem originates from PIE *g'her - to sparkle, from which maybe originated Ancient-Islandic *grar*, German *grau* (grey, grey-haired) and English *grey.*
Therefore we may presume that Spanish word (or the word of the language from which it was loaned there) might designate a fox as a taboo term of the hunters.


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## robbie_SWE

Maroseika said:


> In Romanian *zori* looks like Slavic loan (comp. Russian *заря*, Slovenian *zorja*).
> Slavic word goes back to the same source as Ancient-Prussian sari - heat, Lith. žėrė́ti, žėriù - to sparkle and (conceivably) Greece χαροπoς - radiant (Max Vasmer).
> Slavic stem originates from PIE *g'her - to sparkle, from which maybe originated Ancient-Islandic *grar*, German *grau* (grey, grey-haired) and English *grey.*
> Therefore we may presume that Spanish word (or the word of the language from which it was loaned there) might designate a fox as a taboo term of the hunters.


 
You're right. The Romanian _zori_ comes from an old Slavic source (< *zorĩ*). Thank you though for a deeper analysis (my dictionary lacked that)! 

 robbie


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## Maroseika

robbie_SWE said:


> (my dictionary lacked that)!


Maybe this will help you some time:
vasmer.narod.ru
etymonline.com


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## Adolfo De Coene

En el Maria Moliner la etimología indicada es: Probablemente del portugués "zorrar", arrastrar; debió de aplicarse originariamente a una persona holgazana.  En occasión se llama al mismo animal "mandra", mandría, gandul -- y substituiría a "raposa" como este nombre substituó a "vulpeja" por el afán de los campesinos de rehuir el nombre propio de este animal tenido por maléfico.


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## Outsider

*Zorro* exists in Portuguese, with the same primary meaning as in Spanish, but nowadays this word has become disused, or possibly restricted to some regions of Portugal. In modern Portuguese, we usually say _raposa_. 

*Zorrilho* is an obvious diminutive of _zorro_, "little fox". There are opposite gender variants for both words as well, _zorra_ and _raposo_, with the same meaning (the latter is a common Portuguese family name).

I cannot find *zorrar* in the dictionary. There is a word _zurrar_, but it's related to _zurro_, not _zorro_. _Zurro_ is the moaning sound a donkey makes.

Unfortunately, the online dictionary does not provide an etymology.

The words for "fox" seem to vary considerably in the Romance languages. In French, you say... _renard_!


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## toolmanUF

I wonder what the Arabs living in Iberia called foxes? I know that the current, most common word for fox in Arabic is *ثعلب*, something like "th'alalb" (which is nothing like zorro) but often the dialect spoken in Al-Andalus was quite different from the standard language.


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## Frank06

Hi,



Kaschiller said:


> Also ....Zor, Sor, Sol - - Sun


If this (and the rest of your post) has anything to do with Spanish "fox", or if you can convince us that this has anything to do with 'fox', then I am going to ask you to substantiate your claims.
But according to established linguistic theories, and not according to a highly idiosyncratic set of ad-hoc 'rules' like "Zor, Sor, sol".



> Zorro, could have it's roots in Hebrew.
> Hebrew: שועל (Shu'al) m - Fox
> ( Shual -> Shuar -> Shorr -> Zorr --> Zorro )???
> Shulfa (rom) - bitch
> Sh+ulfa (ulf-ulp-vulp)
> Shorichi - prickled skin,


This gives me the impression of a very idiosyncratic view upon things. This kind of juggling with letters (not even sounds) has nothing to do with historical comparative linguistics. Nothing.
The word could have it roots in Swahili, Numanggang, Waffa or Chipaya. Those are also just possibilities. I mean, you can find (superficial) lexical similarities in any language, and with a bit of hocus-pocus, you can 'prove' anything.



> In Russian I have found зверек - (лиса) ( zverek or lisa ) for Fox.


Again off-topic.



> In Romanian - A Zori ( to hurry ). Have you seen a Fox stealing chickens? I did! They are very quick ! " Zorite!


And what does this have to do with (a) linguistics, (b) Spanish?

Groetjes,

Frank


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## Maroseika

Kaschiller said:


> *( Shual -> Shuar -> Shorr -> Zorr --> Zorro )???*


Sorry, but such a way one can easily prove anything. Phonetical relations actually are very complicated and you can't just substitute one sound with another.



> In Russian I have found зверек - (лиса) ( zverek or lisa ) for Fox.


Лиса is really fox, but зверек means any small amimal being diminutive of зверь - animal.



> A Zari - to see


Also looks like Slavic loan - зырить, зреть, взор, etc.


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## aleCcowaN

Adolfo De Coene said:


> En el Maria Moliner la etimología indicada es: Probablemente del portugués "zorrar", arrastrar; debió de aplicarse originariamente a una persona holgazana.  En occasión se llama al mismo animal "mandra", mandría, gandul -- y substituiría a "raposa" como este nombre substituó a "vulpeja" por el afán de los campesinos de rehuir el nombre propio de este animal tenido por maléfico.


This is exactly what I thought when I looked up the etymology of these words "zorro" and "raposo". It is said that "zorro" comes from Portuguese "zorrar", to creep; and "raposo" from "raboso" (having a tail). These are typical noa words (noa is the opposite of taboo), that is, a way to refer to some meaning indirectly, avoiding so the use of words people are afraid of. Moon and hares are the most outstanding examples of this process in Indo-European languages. The Moon can drive you mad, becoming you a madman (lunatic). Don't name her (it), avoid using the word "menes" (today surviving in "mes" in Spanish); refer to her indirectly: luna (meaning "light") in Latin, selene (meaning "the one that shines") in Greek. In German languages and their relative, Mr. English, the term "menes" survived (Moon, month, Monday).


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## J.F. de TROYES

toolmanUF said:


> I wonder what the Arabs living in Iberia called foxes? I know that the current, most common word for fox in Arabic is *ثعلب*, something like "tha'lab" or "tha3lab" (which is nothing like zorro) but often the dialect spoken in Al-Andalus was quite different from the standard language.


 
I agree with you to think of "the Arabic track", given that the word may sound like Arabic, but I didn't come across anything likely on this way. 



> ADOLFO DE COINE
> En el Maria Moliner la etimología indicada es: Probablemente del portugués "zorrar", arrastrar; debió de aplicarse originariamente a una persona holgazana. En occasión se llama al mismo animal "mandra", mandría, gandul -- y substituiría a "raposa" como este nombre substituó a "vulpeja" por el afán de los campesinos de rehuir el nombre propio de este animal tenido por maléfico.


 
Me interesa aprender que el castellano tiene otra palabra que procede del latín. ¿ Se estila aún la palabra "vulpejo" ahora mismo o quiza parezca de estilo literario ?
El occitán también usa "mandra" y me parece que para llamar al animal unas lenguas recurren a imagenes evocadores como en corso donde se usa "a volpe", pero también " a codilonga" o "a mammicara" por una razón o por otra como las que dicéis unos de vosotros.



> FRANCK 06
> Citation:
> In Russian I have found зверек - (лиса) ( zverek or lisa ) for Fox.
> Again off-topic


 
Not totally, зверек being related to the same P.I.E root *WeLF the Latin "vulpes" comes from with another meaning though. 



> AleCowan
> 
> This is exactly what I thought when I looked up the etymology of these words "zorro" and "raposo". It is said that "zorro" comes from Portuguese "zorrar", to creep; and "raposo" from "raboso" (having a tail). These are typical noa words (noa is the opposite of taboo), that is, a way to refer to some meaning indirectly, avoiding so the use of words people are afraid of. Moon and hares are the most outstanding examples of this process in Indo-European languages.


 
Without being sure I tend to go by what yiu say except for the doubtful Portuguse etymology " zorrar " : see Outsider before (#*11* ) ; I coud'nt find out this verb either.


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## aleCcowaN

J.F. de TROYES said:


> Without being sure I tend to go by what yiu say except for the doubtful Portuguse etymology " zorrar " : see Outsider before (#*11* ) ; I coud'nt find out this verb either.


I agree, but the etymologies say "from ancient Portuguese 'zorrar' ", not modern Portuguese. 

The diversity of terms for _vulpes_ in Romance languages convinced me that bumping into a fox was regarded as very very bad luck.


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## Outsider

The following quote is from the entry for _zorra_ in J. P. Machado's _Dicionário Etimológico da Língua Portuguesa_, 3rd. ed., 1977. "s. 1 Talvez deverbal de _zorrar_. O sentido primitivo de _zorra_2, isto é, de «raposa» (que não sei até que ponto se relaciona com _zorrar_ e com _zorra_1) terá sido o de «pessoa folgazã» (donde _zorra_, na acepção de «prostituta»), que continua vivo e, popularmente, designa ainda, em tom sarcástico ou depreciativo, a «raposa»."

He traces _zorro_ back to _zorra_. As for the verb _zorrar_, which I did not find in the other dictionaries I consulted, he says it's little used, and probably an onomatopoeia for the sound made by something dragging itself (perhaps "crawling" is a better translation).


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## Asgaard

Hi,


aleCcowaN said:


> This is exactly what I thought when I looked up the etymology of these words "zorro" and "raposo". It is said that "zorro" comes from Portuguese "zorrar", to creep; and "raposo" from "raboso" (having a tail). These are typical noa words (noa is the opposite of taboo), that is, a way to refer to some meaning indirectly, avoiding so the use of words people are afraid of. Moon and hares are the most outstanding examples of this process in Indo-European languages. The Moon can drive you mad, becoming you a madman (lunatic). Don't name her (it), avoid using the word "menes" (today surviving in "mes" in Spanish); refer to her indirectly: luna (meaning "light") in Latin, selene (meaning "the one that shines") in Greek. In German languages and their relative, Mr. English, the term "menes" survived (Moon, month, Monday).



Here is what I've found in a mini Basque-English (Euskara- Ingelesa) dictionary :

 Zoro = Mad, Crazy, Fool, Insane, Lunatic
Zorri = Louse

Zorro = 
1. Bag, Pouch, Sack, Saddlebag, Satchel ( here I don't see any connection with Spanish Zorro (Fox) - unless the Basques  used  to make  bags out of Fox's skin???) 2. Case,Sheath
3.Paunch , Potbelly
??? ( from a different root ? ... no idea here.)

Zorrotz = 
1. Sharp, Keen, Pointed
2. Acute, Severe
3. Shrewed, Witty, Sagacious !( attributes of foxes?  "sly like a fox")
4. Exacting, Strict

Azeri = Fox 

Zoritaxar - bad luck, misfortune, disgrace, mischance
Zoritxarrez - unfortunately
Zoritxarreko - ill fated, unlucky, unfortunate, unhappy, miserable, wretched

from etymonline.com -under etymology of craze:
.... "Phrase crazy like a fox recorded from 1935". 
Locus classicus of the phrase " Crazy like a fox" is it's use as a book title by the US humorist SJ Perelman in 1944.

See also Foxes with Rabies, behavior patterns.

The etymology of *Zorra*(o) could be from *Soura*(gk) - tail, just like english *Fox* (PIE puk- tail), Spanish *Raposa( Raboso* - having a tail), Lithuanian *Uodegis* "fox," from *uodega* "tail"). 

Is it possible that foxes with rabies (acting crazy) were called, once upon a time , Zorras?
Or vice versa, crazy people were called Zorras after Zorra, the Crazy fox?

Also founded Zurliu (Romanian)
*ZURLÍU, -ÍE, * _zurlii_, adj. (Fam.) Zvăpăiat, nebunatic; smintit. – Cf. tc. z o r l u.     - crazy

Here the root is Proto Altaic:
crazy, mad
*Turkic:* Jul- *Mongolian:* Dulei *-Tungus-Manchu:* dulbu   - *Korean:* tor

It is interesting to follow this route: TAIL -> FOX -> CRAZY.

Good Day,
Asgaard


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## jo azer

Here we can go a little beyond the apparent etymology,since most words come from ''actions or experiences''that are expressed with sounds and even numbers..let us analyse from the point of view of a shepherd..foxes usually attack sheep at dawn..when they strike they make havoc ..zorra..to deviate dogs or the shepherds attention,she also uses its tale as well to trick the eye sight..lifts it to be seen in one place and lowers to strike in another..Rommel the desert fox as a example..the fox tale was also used around ladies necks to show the scent of mystery but it also used by the shaman to foresee, since the fox is maybe the only animal that plans its strike so first she studies the victim sometimes for days..a tail ..rabo..and it also transmits rabies..rabioso..angry,ferocious,lost mind etc a tale..with very rich meanings..


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## Penyafort

The fox has never been an animal loved by farmers. Just like with taboos, nouns used for unwanted things change quite a lot. The Latin name, _vulpes_, is preserved in the Eastern Romania (Italian _volpe_, Romanian _vulpe_), but in Western Romania, while first adopted in literature, usually from the diminutive _vulpecula/vulpeculus_ (Old Spanish _vulpeja_, Old French _goupil_, Old Portuguese _golpelha_, Old Catalan _volp_ or _volpell,_ etc), people adopted a new name from different sources. The French _renard_ and the Catalan _guineu _come from the old Germanic names _Reginhart _and _Winihild_. The _rabosa/raposa _form, found all over Iberia, probably comes from tail "rapum", as "the tailed-one", the variant with -p- being explained as influenced by the many words relate to "thief, robbery" started with rap-. 

As for the word that would become the most used in modern Spanish, _zorra/zorro_, the origin keeps being far from clear. As it's been said, some good etymologists like Coromines suggested a deviated adjectival meaning of a supposed verb _zorrar_, with the original meaning being "lazy, that spends time prowling about". It sounds unlikely to me, although the fact that the word for the fox in Occitan is _mandra_, word also associated with laziness (Catalan _mandra_, Aragonese _mandria_), might help corroborate it. It is true that the sound of the word makes it look pre-Roman, from a Basco-Iberian source. But deriving it from the Old Basque _azebari _looks extremely complicated, and the fact that the word started to be used in the 15th century makes it unlikely too.


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## jo azer

Most interesting approach..i do think that most of the meanings related to animals,their characters or images are given by those that perhaps live in a conflicting way with these beings..as for zorro..i do have a different idea then Coromines, because there are a lot of aspects to be properly investigated..as an example..zorrillo,masked racoon, or related to the eyes ..come ojos in spanish los ojos  as pronounced sounds like zorros..which can lead to the meaning..to see in a clever tricky manner when related to foxes,racoons, North African muishond etc but it has an eastern origin like in turkish for,trouble,difficult,rage,violent or in persian for force..it is also used in portuguese for trouble,confusion,chaos..but as seen in an animal's attitude we can perceive its practical meaning..these creatures are fast,smart and create sometimes uncontrolled havoc,particularly when they enter a man owned chicken's farm..they strike as many chickens possible without eating them, as if they wanted to destroy this more or less man made creature..


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## Cenzontle

For Spanish etymologies I always consult Corominas/Coromines first.  He is usually honest about saying "We just don't know."  But I question the "lazy" connection.
Coromin@s cites the frequent name changes of that animal (_vulpeja _> _raposa > _zorra), explaining


> ...por la repugnancia del campesino a llamar por su nombre tradicional a este animal maléfico, lo que le conduce constantemente a buscar nuevos nombres indirectos y figurados para llamarle.


But "lazy"?  When I search for " * as a fox", I get _sly_, _cunning_, _wily_, and _crafty_, but not _lazy_.  (See Asgaard's "Zorrotz", #19 above.)
When I search (Ngram Viewer) for " * como un zorro" I get only "*astuto* como un zorro".


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## jo azer

Now this is basically what happens when scholars get too attached to their intellectual sources, they rarely go for the origins,because that requires another kind of science..mathematics..please allow me to give an example,in ancient languages there is a kind of source called..one plus one equal to three..most words are created as a combination of polarities,like male female and neutral,electron proton and neutron and so on.. so zorro has nothing to do with lazy,but precisely the opposite,attentive,alert,capable of turning the events by a surprising move.. that requires eyes which are the mirrors of body chemistry..take a close look to vul/peja separate and analyse individually their meanings..you might be surprised..but for sure has nothing to do with lazyness..


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## danielstan

Romanian _zori_ < Slavic _zorĭ_  (dexonline)

Romanian _vulpe_, Italian _volpe_ < Lat. _vulpem_ (accusative of _vulpis_)
(Latin _vulpes_ is the plural of _vulpis_)

As a general rule (with very few exceptions) the Romance languages have inherited the *accusative* form of Latin names.
One example:
Latin _nox_ ("night")/accusative _noctem_ > Rom. _noapte_, It. _notte_, Fr. _nuit_, Sp. _noche_
Compare with the phonetic rule for the Latin group *ct* in:
Latin _octo_ > Rom. _opt_, It. _otto_, Fr. _huit_, Sp. _ocho_


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## djara

SerinusCanaria3075 said:


> maybe there's some Arab influence but I doubt it.


No link with Arabic. The Arabic ZRR root only points to buttons and buttoning.


toolmanUF said:


> but often the dialect spoken in Al-Andalus was quite different from the standard language.


Yes it was different because it borrowed considerably from the Iberian dialects as well as from the Berber (Amazigh) languages of North Africa. Many Andalusians were ethnic Berbers not Arabs. As far as I know, the words for fox in Amazigh are not related to zorro.


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## jo azer

Zorro is actually a name used for a racoon which is a close relative of the fox..


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## Cenzontle

If by "raccoon" you mean the North American mammal _Procyon lotor_,
the corresponding Spanish Wikipedia article shows that it is indeed sometimes called "zorra manglera"—
as well as "mapache", "mapache boreal", "racuna", and "gato manglatero".  In addition I've seen a dictionary entry that calls it "oso lavador".
According to the Google Ngram Viewer, the frequency of "mapache" (of Nahuatl origin) ranges from 60 to 90 times that of the next runner-up, "racuna".
Foxes of course belong to the family _Canidae_, while raccoons belong to the family _Procyonidae_, which includes coatis, kinkajous, and—I learned today—olinguitos.  
You'll remember the olinguito became a newly described species in 2013.
The raccoon has some visual similarity to the fox:  both have a somewhat triangular face.


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## jo azer

Well,in behaviourism though from a different genetical branch,raccoons have much more in common with foxes than it appears,like in a way cheetahs have genetical differences with other felids but so much in common as well.. a very interesting fact is the way humans view them in a sociological manner comparing some of these animals to human attitude..tricky like a fox..or thief like a racoon etc which results many times in stigma like mapache,racoon,thief etc to the Dineh people known as apache...so as you can see its quite interesting finding out deeply what humans see and understand in animals and comparing to their own behaviour..


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## jo azer

By the way after reading your pointing out on olinguitos,i remembered what some friends in Ecuador use to say about a local individual that had a mysterious behaviour..el es un olinguito,neblinoso...like saying..he is not a person with a visible character..strangely,it is officially interpreted as that olinguitos live in a area with mist..


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