# choir practice



## eni8ma

Я пою в хоре - сообществом хор. (community choir)
Мы упражняемся по вторник вечерам.

По-английски, я говорю "I am going to choir [practice]", or "I have choir [practice] tonight".

У нас два слова – хора "practice" и "rehearsal".
"practice" - мы _учимся_ песни.
"rehearsal" - мы _знаем_ песни, но улучшаемся - прежде исполнении.

rehearsal - репетиция (any other/better words?)

practice - упражнение/повторение/практика
Которое слово лучше (для сообществом хоры)?

упражнение - exercise - activity designed to develop or hone a skill or ability
повторение - repetitions (revision? also for gym exercises?)
практика - practice - repetition of an activity to improve skill (also craft or profession, eg medical practice)

Я иду на хора упражнении/повторении/практике.
Сегодня вечером у меня хора упражнение/повторение/практика.


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## morzh

eni8ma said:


> "practice" - мы _учимся_ песни.



1. Never "учимся" in this case - always "учим".
Учиться - чему-то
Учить - что-то.

2. Новые песни "разучивают".
Мы разучиваем новые песни - we learn new songs.


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## eni8ma

morzh said:


> I am totally confused - too much to get through, and you've already translated bunch of stuff (most of it incorrectly).
> 
> Can you just put down what you want to know without guesses? That would make it sooooo much easier to answer.



What? no marks for making an effort? *Some* of it must be right. 

По-английски, я говорю "I am going to choir [practice]", or "I have choir [practice] tonight".

"practice" - мы _учимся_ песни (we are learning the songs)
 "rehearsal" - мы _знаем_ песни, но улучшаемся - прежде исполнении (we know the songs, but we are improving how we sing them - before a performance)

Я иду в/на хора упражнении/повторении/практике.
Сегодня вечером у меня хора упражнение/повторение/практика.

Которое слово лучше? (which word is better? - in this context)


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## morzh

OMG. 

I am going to choir [practice]", - 1) я иду на репетицию хора. 2) Я иду на хор (this one is musical school lingo - "идти на <instrument lessons>": "идти на скрипку, идти на фо-но" etc).

"I have choir [practice] tonight". 1) У меня сегодня хоровая репетиция, 2) У нас сегодня хоровая репетиция (у нас = у меня in this context), 3) У нас сегодня хор.

We use "репетиция" for both practice and rehearsals, not that there is too much difference in the first place (rehearsal is a kind of practice, though not the other way around): I think, when a band plays every Wednesday and Saturday in someone's garage - it is practice; when it is *practicing for tomorrows show*, playing particular repertoire that will be performed, it is a *rehearsal *then.

I played in a band, and attended choir etc etc - we always used "репетиция".

Also "занятия" is used for "practice" if it is in some sort of school.


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## eni8ma

morzh said:


> I am going to choir [practice] - Я иду  на хор


That's exactly what I say in English - "I'm going to choir".


morzh said:


> We use "репетиция" for both practice and rehearsals ... ; when it is  _practising for tomorrow's show_, playing a _particular repertoire_ that will  be performed, it is a rehearsal then.
> 
> I played in a band, and attended choir etc etc - we always used "репетиция".


OK - what about "dress rehearsal"?


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## Artemiy

мне кажется репетиция(rehearsal) в данном контексте лучше.


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## morzh

Seems like I overwrote my own post. 

1. Never "учимся" in this case - always "учим".
Учиться - чему-то
Учить - что-то.

2. Новые песни "разучивают".
Мы разучиваем новые песни - we learn new songs.


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## morzh

eni8ma said:


> OK - what about "dress rehearsal"?



Dress rehearsal - Генеральная репетиция (if you mean the last rehearsal, using real costumes, right before the performance).


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## Artemiy

eni8ma said:


> That's exactly what I say in English - "I'm going to choir".
> 
> OK - what about "dress rehearsal"?



Dress rehearsal is a final rehearsal before public performance.


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## morzh

eni8ma said:


> That's exactly what I say in English - "I'm going to choir".



Seems to be the same, doesn't it? But actually in English it is not really a shortcut or lingo; in Russian it is a student lingo.

Normally it should be "идти на занятия по хору". "Идти на хор" - lingo.

In English it works with "choir" because "choir" does not mean the subject of learning - it means the place and the doing together, since it has a place. Like a church. 

But you cannot say "I am going to literature", or "I am going to violin". Unlike with the "choir".

In Russian you can, because the name of the subject studied is what it is in this case:

Я иду на хор.
Я иду на литературу.
Я иду на рисование.
Я иду на биологию.

Again, it is spoken only, the student lingo.


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## morzh

Artemiy said:


> Dress rehearsal is a final rehearsal before public performance.




Guess what - he knows that. His native tongue is English, Aussie though he may be.


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## eni8ma

Artemiy said:


> Dress rehearsal is a final rehearsal before public performance.



English is my native language 

Я спрашиваю, как сказать "dress rehearsal" _*по-русски*_.


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## morzh

eni8ma said:


> English is my native language
> 
> Я спрашиваю, как сказать "dress rehearsal" _*по-русски*_.




Have you read my post with an answer, or do I torture my keyboard solely for my own pleasure?


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## eni8ma

morzh said:


> Guess what - he knows that. His native tongue is English, Aussie though he may be.



BTW, I deliberately used the female avatar, so's you'd get a clue that я женщина


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## eni8ma

morzh said:


> Have you read my post with an answer, or do I torture my keyboard solely for my own pleasure?



We are all typing at once, and "talking over each other"


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## morzh

I am floored. 

So, have you?


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## morzh

BTW I never watch the Avatar, probably never will, and the secondary sex characteristics of extra-terrestrial humanoids are not well-known to me; this is why I was oblivious to your gender - it was just a blue face for me. Genderless.


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## Artemiy

morzh said:


> Guess what - he knows that. His native tongue is English, Aussie though he may be.





eni8ma said:


> English is my native language
> 
> Я спрашиваю, как сказать "dress rehearsal" _*по-русски*_.



 You're right! I've thought in Russian but wrote in English.


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## eni8ma

morzh said:


> Seems to be the same, doesn't it? But actually in English it is not really a shortcut or lingo; in Russian it is a student lingo.


Actually it is also a shortcut in English - notice that I put "practice" in brackets, because I would write "choir practice" if I was sitting an English test.



morzh said:


> But you cannot say "I am going to literature", or "I am going to violin".


True. But we can (and do) say "I'm off to biology now".

Also, I have noted the Russian for "dress rehearsal" .


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## eni8ma

morzh said:


> "I have choir [practice] tonight". 1) У меня сегодня хоровая репетиция, 2) У нас сегодня хоровая репетиция (у нас = у меня in this context), 3) У нас сегодня хор.


So I can say:
У меня сегодня вечером хор.


morzh said:


> when it is *practising for tomorrows show*, playing particular repertoire that will be performed, it is a *rehearsal *then.


That's what I was meaning - that rehearsal is for an actual performance, so different from "practice" - but still репетиция, apparently.


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## eni8ma

eni8ma said:


> Я пою в хоре.
> Мы упражняемся по вторник вечерам.


Все правильно сделала?


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## Artemiy

eni8ma said:


> Все правильно сделала?



Почти 

Мы упражняемся (репетируем) вечерами по вторникам.
Мы упражняемся (репетируем) вечерами каждый вторник.


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## eni8ma

морж said:


> "I have choir [practice] tonight". 1) У меня сегодня хоровая репетиция


? Today I have choral practice. (мне кажется church-y)

У меня сегодня хора репетиция. - Today I have choir practice.
также ла́дно?


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## eni8ma

Artemiy said:


> Почти
> 
> Мы упражняемся (репетируем) вечерами по вторникам.
> Мы упражняемся (репетируем) вечерами каждый вторник.



Мы упражняемся вечерами по вторникам.
We practise in the evenings, on Tuesdays.

Понятно! Спасибо


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## Artemiy

eni8ma said:


> ? Today I have choral practice. (мне кажется church-y)
> 
> У меня сегодня хора репетиция. - Today I have choir practice.
> также ла́дно?



У меня сегодня репетиция хора.


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## eni8ma

also:
performance - исполнение (? в данном контексте)
(Я уже  знаю "консерт")

Как сказать "eisteddfod"?
An eisteddfod is where several choirs (or bands, or poets, etc) compete for a trophy.

Наш хор получи́ли награду


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## Artemiy

eni8ma said:


> also:
> performance - исполнение (? в данном контексте)
> (Я уже  знаю "консерт")
> 
> Как сказать "eisteddfod"?
> An eisteddfod is where several choirs (or bands, or poets, etc) compete for a trophy.
> 
> Наш хор получи́ли награду



да, performance в данном случае  - исполнение
(Я уже  знаю "консерт")  - кон*ц*ерт
As I know "eisteddfod" is a annual festival - ежегодный фестиваль. 
Наш хор получил награду.


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## eni8ma

Artemiy said:


> да, performance в данном случае  - исполнение
> (Я уже  знаю "консерт")  - кон*ц*ерт
> As I know "eisteddfod" is a annual festival - ежегодный фестиваль.
> Наш хор получил награду.


Oh dear - it is not good to be corrected for things I should have got right myself  

 Наш хор получил награду. Of course, only *one *choir (with many singers ). 
кон*ц*ерт - yes, in my _very first_ lesson - _На концерте. Музыканты играют тихо. Я слушаю и я думаю..._

performance - исполнение
eisteddfod - ежегодный фестиваль

Спасибо.


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## Natalisha

Artemiy said:


> У меня сегодня репетиция хора.


No, I would never say that.
I attended a music school in my childhood.
If we meant classes we just said 'У меня сегодня хор'. (as Morzh said) 
Before a concert we always had 'репетиция'. (у меня сегодня репетиция)

But never did we say 'У меня сегодня репетиция хора.'


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## elemika

eni8ma said:


> Я пою в хоре - сообществом хор. (community choir)
> Мы упражняемся по вторник вечерам.
> 
> По-английски, я говорю "I am going to choir [practice]", or "I have choir [practice] tonight".
> 
> У нас два слова – хора "practice" и "rehearsal".
> "practice" - мы _учимся_ песни.
> "rehearsal" - мы _знаем_ песни, но улучшаемся - прежде исполнении.
> 
> rehearsal - репетиция (any other/better words?)
> 
> practice - упражнение/повторение/практика
> Которое слово лучше (для сообществом хоры)?
> 
> упражнение - exercise - activity designed to develop or hone a skill or ability
> повторение - repetitions (revision? also for gym exercises?)
> практика - practice - repetition of an activity to improve skill (also craft or profession, eg medical practice)
> 
> Я иду на хора упражнении/повторении/практике.
> Сегодня вечером у меня хора упражнение/повторение/практика.


Please note that choir practice could be translated with "спевка".
Спевка = репетиция хора
Exercise = упражнение, но для хора это скорее распевка (хоровая распевка).

Сегодня вечером я иду на хор / на хоровое занятие / на занятие хора /иду на спевку  нашего хора / на репетицию нашего хора

Два раза в неделю проходят спевки / репетиции нашего общинного / церковного хора.

На занятиях мы распеваемся (поем хоровые распевки, исполняем вокально-хоровые упражнения)

Мы повторяем каждое упражнение / каждую распевку несколько раз

Перед выступлением / перед концертом мы проводим генеральную репетицию.


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## eni8ma

elemika said:


> Please note that choir practice could be translated with "спевка".
> Спевка = репетиция хора


Да, google сказал "спевок", но в моём словаре нет этого слова.



elemika said:


> Exercise = упражнение, но для хора это скорее распевка (хоровая распевка).


_la_-la-la-la-_la_-la-la-la-laaa-la 


elemika said:


> Сегодня вечером я иду на хор / на хоровое занятие / на занятие хора /иду на спевку  нашего хора / на репетицию нашего хора


Также "Сегодня вечером я иду на спевку"?


elemika said:


> Два раза в неделю проходят спевки / репетиции нашего общинного / церковного хора.
> ...
> Перед выступлением


performance - выступле́ние
community choir - общин хор - спасибо


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## eni8ma

Natalisha said:


> I attended a music school in my childhood.
> If we meant classes we just said 'У меня сегодня хор'. (as Morzh said)
> Before a concert we always had 'репетиция'. (у меня сегодня репетиция)
> But never did we say 'У меня сегодня репетиция хора.'


Is that because, at a music school, you all knew what the rehearsals were for?

If I said to someone "У меня сегодня репетиция", I would have to say another sentence to tell them I am in a choir; or can I say "У меня сегодня репетиция хора", or perhaps better, "У меня сегодня спевка", and they will then realise I am in a choir.


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## elemika

eni8ma said:


> Также "Сегодня вечером я иду на спевку"? если собеседник в курсе Ваших хоровых занятий; если нет - лучше уточнить: на спевку нашего хора.
> 
> performance - выступле́ние
> community choir - общинный хор = хор общины
> 
> - спасибо


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## Natalisha

elemika said:


> Please note that choir practice could be translated with "спевка".
> Спевка = репетиция хора


Very interesting. I've never heard this word before.
Though I think the verb 'спеться' is well-known.


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## Maroseika

eni8ma said:


> Да, google сказал "спевок", но в моём словаре нет этого слова.


Спевок is Plural Gen. Спевка is Sing. Nom.




> Также "Сегодня вечером я иду на спевку"?


You may say like this, but more natural is У меня (у нас) вечером спевка.




> community choir - общин хор


Общин хор means "of the community choir", i.e. it is wrong.
Community choir is хор общины or maybe better местный (наш, деревенский, церковный, районый, etc.) хор, because община in Russian has very special connotation (religious community,  peasant community, the House of Commons (Палата общин).


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## eni8ma

Artemiy said:


> As I know "eisteddfod" is a annual festival - ежегодный фестиваль.


It is true that an eisteddfod is held annually, but so are other festivals.

An eisteddfod is a _competition_ - between artistic groups - poets, singers, choirs, bands.
Is there another word for such a competition?


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## elemika

Maroseika said:


> You may say like this, but more natural is У меня (у нас) вечером спевка.



Или: Вечером иду на хоровую спевку.


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## elemika

eni8ma said:


> It is true that an eisteddfod is held annually, but so are other festivals.
> 
> An eisteddfod is a _competition_ - between artistic groups - poets, singers, choirs, bands.
> Is there another word for such a competition?



Это может быть конкурсом непрофессиональных певцов (click)


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## Maroseika

elemika said:


> Или: Вечером иду на хоровую спевку.


Разве бывают спевки не хоровые?
Спевка - репетиция хора (Ожегов).


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## elemika

Спевки бывают и в других вокальных коллективах, например, в ансамблях


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## eni8ma

Maroseika said:


> Спевок is Plural Gen. Спевка is Sing. Nom.


I did look to see what the root of the word was, but could not find it at all, nor in other online dictionaries.
Natalisha has not heard it before either .


Maroseika said:


> You may say like this, but more natural is У меня (у нас) вечером спевка.


Спасибо  (we've been looking at two forms "Я иду сегодня вечером на ..." and "У меня сегодня вечером ...")


Maroseika said:


> Общин хор means "of the community choir", i.e. it is wrong.
> Community choir is хор общины or maybe better местный (наш, деревенский, церковный, районый, etc.) хор, because община in Russian has very special connotation (religious community,  peasant community, the House of Commons (Палата общин).


Спасибо 

In Australia, the phrase is community choir, and it means a group of people from the community who have formed a choir - no talent required  (amateur choir? ) - no church is involved, nor do we represent our area, so district, etc is not the right term. Мне кажется лучшее слово "местный".


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## Maroseika

eni8ma said:


> I did look to see what the root of the word was, but could not find it at all, nor in other online dictionaries.


Спевка is an old and well-known word. Спевка < спеваться < с + петь, i.e. петь вместе (sing together).
There is another word of the same "construction" - спеться, used nowadays mostly figuratively:
спеться - to be at one (about anything, not only singing).




> In Australia, the phrase is community choir, and it means a group of people from the community who have formed a choir


What does community means here exactly?


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## elemika

Looks like местный любительский хор


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## eni8ma

Maroseika said:


> What does community means here exactly?


I did explain in my post  It's just people from the (local) community, who like to sing.


elemika said:


> Looks like местный любительский хор


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## eni8ma

It seems eisteddfod can be transliterated into Russian - айстедвод.  Not used often, but it is not used often here, either.  Tends to be an "in-house" word.


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## Maroseika

elemika said:


> Спевки бывают и в других вокальных коллективах, например, в ансамблях


Не уверен, что это чем-то отличается от спевки в хоре, т.е. слово "хоровая" ничего не добавляет к слову "спевка". По-моему, хоровая спевка - тавтология.
Надо бы у музыкантов проверить.


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## Maroseika

eni8ma said:


> I did explain in my post  It's just people from the (local) community, who like to sing.



You wrote: "community choir ... means a group of people from the community who have formed a choir".

I'm afraid I cannot understand from this what is this community. But since you call it local community, I wondered what comminity was meant - hamlet, village, township, etc.


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## Natalisha

eni8ma said:


> Is that because, at a music school, you all knew what the rehearsals were for?


Yes, of course. But as my friends and my neighbours knew that I sang and danced they could ask me additional questions:

_- Я на репетицию.
- Танцевать?
- Нет, петь._


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## Artemiy

maroseika said:


> Не уверен, что это чем-то отличается от спевки в хоре, т.е. слово "хоровая" ничего не добавляет к слову "спевка". По-моему, хоровая спевка - тавтология.
> Надо бы у музыкантов проверить.



СПЕВКА. Репетиция вокального коллектива, хора. С двух спевок приготовились к концерту. Толковый словарь Ушакова.

В школьные годы я учился в музыкальной школе, но участвовал не в хоре, а в духовом оркестре. Перед началом репетиции мы все разыгрывались. А в ходе самой репетиции происходило сыгрывание. В хоре аналогично - вначале происходит распевка(разминка голосовых связок), а после уже спевка коллектива, т.е. по сути сама репетиция.


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## learnrussian

разучивать... когда используеться? Почему?..."Мы разучиваем новые песни"  Неправильно сказать "Мы учим новые песни"?


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## elemika

Maroseika said:


> Не уверен, что это чем-то отличается от спевки в хоре, т.е. слово "хоровая" ничего не добавляет к слову "спевка". По-моему, хоровая спевка - тавтология.
> Надо бы у музыкантов проверить.



А-а, дошла суть проблемы :
но под "хоровой спевкой" имелась ввиду не "спевка хором", а "спевка хора" (ну, не квартета, не трио, не вокального ансамбля) 
Конечено, спевка сама по себе предполагает пение хором, даже если это всего несколько голосов.


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## elemika

learnrussian said:


> разучивать... когда используеться? Почему?..."Мы разучиваем новые песни"  Неправильно сказать "Мы учим новые песни"?



Можно. Но учат, как правило, для себя, чтобы запомнить, а разучивают - для исполнения. Песни  для выступлений  разучивают (не просто запоминают, а учатся их исполнять)

Я учу слова. Я учу новые выражения.
Я разучиваю новую песню.


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## Artemiy

learnrussian said:


> разучивать... когда используеться? Почему?..."Мы разучиваем новые песни"  Неправильно сказать "Мы учим новые песни"?



когда используе*тс*я?


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## learnrussian

когда используется  "разучивать"...  2. Новые песни "разучивают". Мы разучиваем новые песни - we learn new songs.  Неправильно... "учить новые песни"?  Спасибо.


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## Slavianophil

I think "разучивать" means not just to memorise the lyrics or the tune, but to learn and practise in order to be able to sing those songs correctly. See here: http://slovari.yandex.ru/~книги/Толковый%20словарь%20Ушакова/Разучить/

As you can see, the word is used when speaking about some piece that you can perform - a theatre play, a music piece, a dance, a song...


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## Slavianophil

Sorry, I posted the same thing twice. Moderators, please delete this posting!


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## eni8ma

Maroseika said:


> You wrote: "community choir ... means a group of people from the community who have formed a choir".
> 
> I'm afraid I cannot understand from this what is this community. But since you call it local community, I wondered what community was meant - hamlet, village, township, etc.


I see, so the word "community" has you puzzled?
Я живу в Мельбурне, которая большой город (over 3 million - _не_ большой by world standards ). "community" значит люди, кто живут "in the surrounding area" - the size of the area may be different depending on what is being spoken about. In this case, people who live in local suburbs, within about 5 kilometres of the hall where we practise.


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## Maroseika

eni8ma said:


> I see, so the word "community" has you puzzled?
> Я живу в Мельбурне, который большой город (over 3 million - _не_ большой by world standards ). "community" значит люди, которые живут "in the surrounding area" - the size of the area may be different depending on what is being spoken about. In this case, people who live in local suburbs, within about 5 kilometres of the hall where we practise.


In this case I think you are quite right and this is местный хор.


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## Slavianophil

"Community" is a word that drives Russian translators frantic. We haven't got a universal equivalent for it in Russian and, in most cases, have to find contextual solutions. Things are made worse by the fact that its meaning in English is extremely wide and rather vague. Sometimes, when you have to deal with it in a text you can't be really sure what the author meant to say.

Until you get a very good grasp on Russian you'd better avoid words like "община" и "сообщество", for their meanings are much much more narrow than that of the English "community" and they sound awkward in most contexts.


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## Natalisha

Slavianophil said:


> "Community" is a word that drives Russian translators frantic. We haven't got a universal equivalent for it in Russian and, in most cases, have to find contextual solutions. Things are made worse by the fact that its meaning in English is extremely wide and rather vague. Sometimes, when you have to deal with it in a text you can't be really sure what the author meant to say.
> 
> Until you get a very good grasp on Russian you'd better avoid words like "община" и "сообщество", for their meanings are much much more narrow than that of the English "community" and they sound awkward in most contexts.


In Italy they call it 'communa' (коммуна). You just perceive the word without translation. I call it 'коммуна' but I have to explain the meaning of the word to those people who have never been abroad.


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## morzh

I agree about "community" - this may mean just about anything and does not have a universal translation into Russian.
The translation is always context-dependent.

Community choir - is, I think, "местный любительский хор".


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## morzh

*Спевка* - is a good word for a choir practice.


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## eni8ma

I think a "community choir" signifies
- from the local area
- mostly amateur singers
- not associated with any religion (although one of our community choirs does use the church hall, but that's only because it is convenient, and the church makes some money hiring the hall out )


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## morzh

eni8ma said:


> I think a "community choir" signifies
> - from the local area - *this is why it is "местный"
> * - mostly amateur singers - _*this is why it is "любительский"
> *_ - not associated with any religion - _*this is why no other adjectives are used (like "церковный" etc)*_
> (although one of our community choirs does use the church hall, but that's only because it is convenient, and the church makes some money hiring the hall out )


 
And so it becomes....again...."*местный любительский хор*",


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## morzh

http://www.susi.ru/gaijin/spevka.html

This is a story by a now well known web-writer, Vadim Smolensky.
It is called "Спевка".

For those who read Russian - it is a good reading.
And it is not fiction - pretty much real stories, and real people renamed.


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## eni8ma

morzh said:


> And so it becomes....again...."*местный любительский хор*",


I was by no means disagreeing, морж , merely tying together various statements into a neat list.  I like to summarise and collate observations.


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## morzh

eni8ma said:


> I was by no means disagreeing, морж , merely tying together various statements into a neat list.  I like to summarise and collate observations.



To check harmony with algebra?


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## eni8ma

морж said:


> To check harmony with algebra?


Not quite sure what you mean there, but maths was my absolutely most favourite subject at school  (deliberate exaggerated use of English )


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## Maroseika

eni8ma said:


> Not quite sure what you mean there


«Моцарт и Сальери» (А. С. Пушкин) 

Ремесло
Поставил я подножием искусству:
Я сделался ремесленник: перстам
Придал послушную, сухую беглость
И верность уху. Звуки умертвив,
Музы́ку я разъял, как труп. Поверил
Я алгеброй гармонию. Тогда
Уже дерзнул, в науке искушенный,
Предаться неге творческой мечты.

I put up craft
To constitute the pedestal of art.
I turned into a craftsman: to my fingers
I taught submissive, dry dexterity;
My ear, precision. Having stifled sounds,
I cut up music like a corpse. I measured
Harmony by arythmetics. Then only,
Well-versed in science, dared I give myself
To the sweet languor of creative fancy.


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## eni8ma

Sounds like turning art into something dry and dead.  Total opposite of me.   Mathematics is itself also art.

Anyway - thanks to everyone for your help


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