# Urdu and Hindi: dog



## Alfaaz

*Background:* a group of children are watching a popular cartoon (________man dubbed in Urdu, Hindi, Gujrati, Punjabi, Sindhi, etc.)...
The hero says to the villainess: کتیا! مرنے کے لئے تیار ہوجا kuttiyaa! marne ke liye tayaar ho jaa! 
The children get excited, jumping up and down on the couch and saying: مار _______میں! زور سے مار ---- کو  maar ______man! zor se maar ----- ko! 


A group of _English and Urdu native __men and women _(attending the party) are absolutely mortified, utterly shocked, and cannot believe they are listening to the cartoon and these children using this term with the parents standing there being completely normal and continuing on with their conversations! Talk about a culture shock...
*Question:* What is the difference between the following terms for "dog"? What would be the most appropriate/polite way to translate an English sentence like: "How many dogs do you have?" *Correction of any **misconceptions/cultural differences **would be appreciated!**
*

kutta کتا : a male dog...really rude when used for a person...and even considered rude for a dog by some 
"woh sirf aik waHshi kutta hai jo tumheiN noch noch kar khaa jaa'egaa ! وہ صرف ایک وحشی کتا ہے جو تمہیں نوچ نوچ کر کھا جائیگا 

kuttiya/kutti کتیا / کتی : a female dog...extremely rude when used for a person........and even considered rude for a dog by some 
like in a dialogue _"kutti, dalaalah! tu maaN ke naam par dhabaa hai! isi din ke liye tune beTi ko paidaa kiyaa thaa?" __" __کتی، دلالہ! تو ماں کے نام پر دھبا ہے! اسی دن کے لئے تونے بیٹی کو پیدا کیا تھا "_

sag سگ sounded a bit more sophisticated......
....until reading this in Platts: _sag-zāda_ 

kalb کلب , is the only one left and sounds more friendly/cleaner perhaps because it doesn't have as strong of a negative connotation associated with it like the two Prakrit derived and one Farsi derived word listed above.....?
Question especially for Hindi speakers: What does _Shivaani_ mean? It seems to be a really popular female name. Seeing Platt's definition, it doesn't make sense why it is used as a name...or is that a different _Shivaani_?


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## greatbear

The name is "Shivani" (शिवानी), meaning wife of Shiva. The bitch is "shwaanii" (श्वानी), meaning wife of dog (shwaan). Huge difference in orthography and pronunciation.

By the way, since when did calling a dog as "kuttaa" begin to be rude? What to call the dog otherwise?


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## Alfaaz

> The name is "Shivani" (शिवानी), meaning wife of Shiva. The bitch is "shwaanii" (श्वानी), meaning wife of dog (shwaan). Huge difference in orthography and pronunciation.


Thanks for the clarification (couldn't read the Hindi script)!


> By the way, since when did calling a dog as "kuttaa" begin to be rude?


; I think it has been quite a while now! Might be wrong, but in the movie (probably) Judaa'ii Anil K. says (something like this) to Sridevi: 
"Kaajal, yeh tum ghar mein kutta kyuN le aayi ho?" 


> What to call the dog otherwise?


"Uh-ho! Isse kutta na kaho! Yeh _*doggy*_ hai!  Sanskaar hi naheeN haiN!"


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## lcfatima

Would kalb be widely understood in Urdu? It has a pejorative meaning in Arabic, too, though there is a qabilah called al Kalbani. 

Both kutti and kuttiya are Urdu? 

I recall some Hindi speakers using the word kukur but I don't know if that word was actually from a local language or "pure Hindi."


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## greatbear

I think the situation in _Judaa__i_ was meant to make fun of Sridevi: what was being satirized was her equating English with modernity. I don't think "kutta/kutiyaa" (btw, I have never heard a "kuttiyaa", only "kutiyaa") is considered rude for a dog/bitch.
However, there's also the word "kuttii", as in "baRii kuttii chiiz hai", which can probably be best translated by the Australian "bloody".


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## Alfaaz

Icfatima said:
			
		

> Would kalb be widely understood in Urdu? It has a pejorative meaning in Arabic, too, though there is a qabilah called al Kalbani.


Probably not (well would depend on individuals), which is why it seemed like a better option. There was a recent discussion in a TV show about how the words saala/saali have become more of a gaali in modern language, so people prefer to use alternative phrases like "brother/sister-in-law" or "zaujah ki hamsheerah". I was thinking the same seems to be true for "dog". 
(In a morning show a few years back, a popular band vocalist and his wife (also a popular VJ and actress) came on the show and in response to a question about their household....used the word kutiyaa. The host turned red and just put a pillow in front of her face, but then said "Excuse me, this is a family show! Aap kaisa lafz istimaal kar rahe hain" to which both the guests replied "Are, kutiyaa to itnaaaaa achha lafz hai Hindi/Urdu kaa!" and purposely kept repeating it.)


			
				Icfatima said:
			
		

> Both kutti and kuttiya are Urdu?


Not sure, but I was told that the latter is a diminutive form.....? (bulldog vs. small poodle) 


			
				greatbear said:
			
		

> However, there's also the word "kuttii", as in "baRii kuttii chiiz hai", which can probably be best translated by the Australian "bloody".


Yes, and also the way they are used in tapori style films makes it sound like a really bad/derogatory/pejorative term, which is why it makes many people cringe.


			
				Alfaaz said:
			
		

> _English and Urdu native __men and women _... *Correction of any misconceptions/cultural differences would be appreciated!*


I was asking this question based only on what I have observed in the media, which often may cause misconceptions to be formed. (This might be kind of connected to the argument of what makes a "true" native, living in the environment or not, etc.) Thanks for the replies everyone.


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## Qureshpor

lcfatima said:


> Would kalb be widely understood in Urdu? It has a pejorative meaning in Arabic, too, though there is a qabilah called al Kalbani.
> 
> Both kutti and kuttiya are Urdu?
> 
> I recall some Hindi speakers using the word kukur but I don't know if that word was actually from a local language or "pure Hindi."



kuttaa, in the generic sense is "dog" (both male or female)

kutiyaa is specifically a female dog/a bitch

As for "kuttii", I have always thought it was Punjabi. But looking at Platts, it is shown equivalent to "kutiyaa". I suspect Urdu speakers would invariably use kutiyaa whereas Hindi speakers possibly use both kutiyaa and kuttii. This is not the first time I have come to realise that a word is also used in Urdu and is not specifically a Punjabi word. I am sure other Punjabi speakers can relate to this.

kukkur/kuukar is a dog and its etymology is Sanskrit.


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## marrish

QURESHPOR said:


> kuttaa, in the generic sense is "dog" (both male or female)
> 
> kutiyaa is specifically a female dog/a bitch
> 
> As for "kuttii", I have always thought it was Punjabi. But looking at Platts, it is shown equivalent to "kutiyaa". I suspect Urdu speakers would invariably use kutiyaa whereas Hindi speakers possibly use both kutiyaa and kuttii. This is not the first time I have come to realise that a word is also used in Urdu and is not specifically a Punjabi word. I am sure other Punjabi speakers can relate to this.
> 
> kukkur/kuukar is a dog and its etymology is Sanskrit.



Qureshpor SaaHib, I agree with you that kutta is the generic word. In Urdu it is kutyaa for me, I also thought kuttii to be Punjabi. But, there are worlds beyond the Punjab where bitch is kuttii. The word kukkur is at the origins of kuttaa. It forms some compounds in Hindi, as far as I know, one of them being kukkurmuttaa being the name of some sort mushrooms.

I don't agree the word kuttaa is offensive, it is just a word as many other basic Urdu words which can be charged negatively as well as positively. The context is, as ever, all. This is not the kind of words I would think twice before thinking of using them in front of my elders. I feel surprised at the ridiculous reaction of someone in the show you shared with us. 

No euphemism comes to my mind to substitute 'kuttaa'  in a sentence which might be said by a child to his or her mother: ammii jaan, dekhiye, mujhe kutte ne kaaT diyaa! or, ghar kaa darvaazaa band karo nahiiN to kuttaa bhaag jaa'e gaa.

Still I can imagine that there are some circles who would frown about talking of dogs at all so if that reaction was caused by such a phobia, then I can understand. 

Strange that we had never proceeded on ''kuttaa'' before, this being a word of very frequent occurence.


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## Alfaaz

> This is not the kind of words I would think twice before thinking of using them in front of my elders. I feel surprised at the ridiculous reaction of someone in the show you shared with us.


I thought the reaction of the host was actually a bit justified (from an English perspective). For example, the English word that Platts lists for shwaani, greatbear, QP SaaHib, and you have used in your post originally might have meant "female dog" and still does, but has "morphed" into meaning...... فاحشہ ! In many (not just Urdu circles) but even English communities, people would think twice about using the word...especially in front of elders. Because of this change in usage/meaning, most people would just use dog. The host might have had the same (English) mindset and been shocked by what this gentleman sitting right in front of her was saying to her face! Of course, then both husband and wife clarified that this was a common word in Urdu and Hindi meaning only "female dog". 



			
				marrish said:
			
		

> Still I can imagine that there are some circles who would frown about talking of dogs at all so if that reaction was caused by such a phobia, then I can understand.


نہیں، ایسی کوئی بات نہیں تھی (اگر اشارہ مذہبی پرہیز کی طرف ہے). صرف انکے خیال میں لفظ ایک گالی کی مانند تھا، جیسے سالی اور سلا کا ذکر کیا


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## marrish

I've realized that I was thinking the reaction came upon hearing kuttaa. But I think I can safely extend my remariks to kutyaa too. 

As a matter of fact though, I was not pointing to any particular motivation since some people simply have phobia, I think it can be called kynophobia, and it has a cultural context as well. Of course this is not related to the perception of this word as an abusive or pejorative which one can not deny simply is there in the language so let me emphasize that I understand people have right to react to ''bitch'', whatever the language be. 

I'm trying to focus on the subject of ''kuttaa'', I was not only referring to the show.


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## Qureshpor

"kuttaa " and "kutyaa", IMHO, are perfectly respectable words. It all depends in what context they are used.

khiir pakaa'ii jatan se, charxah diyaa jalaa
aayaa kuttaa khaa gayaa, tuu baiThii Dhol bajaa

Amiir Xusrau

bolaa dukaan-daar kih kyaa chaahiye tujhe
chaaho ge jo bhii merii dukaaN pih paa'o ge
maiN ne kahaa kih kutte ke khaane kaa kek hai
bolaa yahiiN pih khaa'o ge kih le ke jaa'o ge!

SaaGhar Nizaamii

There is also of course the well-known nazm by Faiz entitled "kutte".


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## Qureshpor

lcfatima said:


> Would kalb be widely understood in Urdu? It has a pejorative meaning in Arabic, too, though there is a qabilah called al Kalbani.



No, in Urdu "kalb" would not be widely understood. Those who are familiar with Surah al-kahf of the Qur'an will know.. Chapter18, v21

"Some say , "The Sleepers were three, and their dog made four", others say, "They were five and their dog made six"---guessing  in the dark--- and some say, " They were seven and their dog made eight...".

Here the word "kalb" is used. Further more, in Urdu books, when k/q is contrasted, kalb (dog) and qalb (heart) are the examples that are presented.


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## marrish

Qureshpor SaaHib, would it be that there are some proverbs with a dog at the center of interest. Would those proverbs be considered rude or unappropriate?


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> Qureshpor SaaHib, would it be that there are some proverbs with a dog at the center of interest. Would those proverbs be considered rude or unappropriate?



Not really..

kutiyaa choroN mil ga'ii ab aave suu kaun

(jab kutiyaa choroN se mil ga'ii hai to kaun madad ko aa'e gaa?)

kutte kii dum ko baarah baras nalkii meN rakhkhaa, phir dekhaa to TeRhii kii TeRhii!


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## greatbear

Another proverb: "Dhobii kaa kuttaa na ghar kaa na ghaaT kaa".


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## bakshink

greatbear said:


> Another proverb: "Dhobii kaa kuttaa na ghar kaa na ghaaT kaa".



Here are some more proverbs

Kutte ka kaaTnaa bhi bura aur kutte ka chaaTnaa bhi bura.

apni galee mein to kutta bhi sher hota hai

Har kutte ke din badalte hain

and one in Punjabi " IT ( brick) kutte da vair


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## Faylasoof

Alfaaz said:


> .....*
> 
> Question:* What is the difference between the following terms for "dog"? What would be the most appropriate/polite way to translate an English sentence like: "How many dogs do you have?" *Correction of any **misconceptions/cultural differences **would be appreciated!**
> *
> 
> kutta کتا : a male dog...really rude when used for a person...and even considered rude for a dog by some
> "woh sirf aik waHshi kutta hai jo tumheiN noch noch kar khaa jaa'egaa ! وہ صرف ایک وحشی کتا ہے جو تمہیں نوچ نوچ کر کھا جائیگا
> 
> kuttiya/kutti کتیا / کتی : a female dog...extremely rude when used for a person........and even considered rude for a dog by some
> like in a dialogue _"kutti, dalaalah! tu maaN ke naam par dhabaa hai! isi din ke liye tune beTi ko paidaa kiyaa thaa?" __" __کتی، دلالہ! تو ماں کے نام پر دھبا ہے! اسی دن کے لئے تونے بیٹی کو پیدا کیا تھا "_
> 
> sag سگ sounded a bit more sophisticated......
> ....until reading this in Platts: _sag-zāda_
> 
> kalb کلب , is the only one left and sounds more friendly/cleaner perhaps because it doesn't have as strong of a negative connotation associated with it like the two Prakrit derived and one Farsi derived word listed above.....?
> Question especially for Hindi speakers: What does _Shivaani_ mean? It seems to be a really popular female name. Seeing Platt's definition, it doesn't make sense why it is used as a name...or is that a different _Shivaani_?


  To cut a long story short, to insult you'd use _kuttaa _for a male (boy /man) and _kutyaa_ [kut-yaa] for a female (girl / woman).  One can’t, use _kutyaa_ to insult a man / boy unless one wishes to come across as rather dense! Even when hurling insults we respect gender!  

We don't use _kuttii_ or _kuttiyaa_ -neither exist in our lexicon! In fact, we don’t consider these proper Urdu!

The Arabic _kalb_ is used as part of a name so can be understood my some, e.g. a name like _kalb-e-saadiq_ (normally written _kalb-e-sadiq_). There is a _lakhnavii maulaanaa_ by this very name. I know him. He is very well known. Another is _kalb-e-jawaad_ (normally written _kalb-e-jawad_). He too is well known. Just google them! Hence, for some Urduphones at least, _kalb_ would be understood. In the same manner you have names like _kalb-e-3abbaas_, _kalb-e-3alii _etc. I’m sure you get the drift how / why _kalb_ is being used here.

The Persian _sag_, like the Arabic _kalb,_ may not always be understood, except for those who are better educated.

_sag zaadah_  =  _pillaa_ (pup) =  _kutte kii aulaad_  - these are as bad if not worse than calling someone a _Haraam zaadah_ or _Haraamii_ – the latter, depending on the context has other meanings too, not just illegitimate / out of wed-lock offspring. Even worse if you call someone a _Haraamii pillaa_ (equivalent to ‘a bastard son of a bitch!’).  

_Needless to say, all of these are extremely rude and should be avoided – at least in polite company!_

A straightforward (and polite) way to translate:
_"How many dogs do you have?"  _
_aap ke paas kitne kutte haiN?_

But you can also say in a more formal manner: _aap kitne  kuttoN ke maalik haiN_? / _aap ke kuttoN kii ta3daad kitnii hai_? 
Of course in a different context the above can also be used to ask from, say, a gangster, and in a very polite manner, how many hoodlums and crooks are working for him! I wouldn't!!


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## marrish

Faylasoof said:


> To cut a long story short, to insult you'd use _kuttaa _for a male (boy /man) and *kutyaa [kut-yaa]* for a female (girl / woman).  One can’t, use _kutyaa_ to insult a man / boy unless one wishes to come across as rather dense! Even when hurling insults we respect gender!
> 
> We don't use *kuttii* or *kuttiyaa* -neither exist in our lexicon! In fact, we don’t consider these proper Urdu!
> [...]
> The Persian _sag_, like the Arabic _kalb,_ may not always be understood, except for those who are better educated.
> 
> [...]
> But you can also say in a more formal manner: _aap kitne  kuttoN ke maalik haiN_? / _aap ke kuttoN kii ta3daad kitnii hai_?
> Of course in a different context the above can also be used to ask from, say, a gangster, and in a very polite manner, how many hoodlums and crooks are working for him! I wouldn't!!



Faylasoof SaaHib, I'm glad to see you confirm what I mentioned in my earlier post about 'bitch' in Urdu.
The last paragraph is indicating another usage of 'dog', which is there very much. Perhaps it is connected to ''shikaarii kutte'' in a way!


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## Faylasoof

marrish said:


> Faylasoof SaaHib, I'm glad to see you confirm what I mentioned in my earlier post about 'bitch' in Urdu.
> The last paragraph is indicating another usage of 'dog', which is there very much. Perhaps it is connected to ''shikaarii kutte'' in a way!


 marrish SaaHib, kutyaa (or kutiyaa - both are considered correct though we go for the former) is indeed a bitch - female dog, and also used as an insult for the female of the human species!

Yes, the last part could refer to _shikaarii kutte_ or just pet dogs = _paaltuu kutte_.


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## marrish

Faylasoof said:


> marrish SaaHib, kutyaa (or kutiyaa - both are considered correct though we go for the former) is indeed a bitch - female dog, and also used as an insult for the female of the human species!
> 
> Yes, the last part could refer to _shikaarii kutte_ or just pet dogs = _paaltuu kutte_.



I agree, and kuttii would be a feminine adjective, as 'aaj kitnaa kuttaa mausam hai', here a masculine adjective. This is of course not written language, though!

_janaab-e vaalaa, aap ne jin kuttoN ka Hawaalah diyaa hai vuh kitne bhii paaltuu kyuuN nah hoN, vaqt aane par baawle to nikleN ge hii!_


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## Faylasoof

marrish said:


> *Faylasoof* marrish SaaHib, kutyaa  (or kutiyaa - both are considered correct though we go for the former)  is indeed a bitch - female dog, and also used as an insult for the  female of the human species!
> 
> Yes, the last part could refer to _shikaarii kutte_ or just pet dogs = _paaltuu kutte_.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree, and kuttii would be a feminine adjective, as 'aaj kitnaa kuttaa mausam hai', here a masculine adjective. This is of course not written language, though!
> 
> _janaab-e vaalaa, aap ne jin kuttoN ka Hawaalah diyaa hai vuh kitne bhii paaltuu kyuuN nah hoN, vaqt aane par baawle to nikleN ge hii!_
Click to expand...

 _janaab-e-3aalii, kutte jitne bhii baawle hoN magar wafadaarii meN un kaa jawaab nahiiN. ba3Dh, balkeh beshtar, banii aadam se das haath aage haiN! _


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## BP.

Does the tribe banuu kalb's name mean what it appears to mean?


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## Qureshpor

BelligerentPacifist said:


> Does the tribe banuu kalb's name mean what it appears to mean?



BP SaaHib, I have tried to "research" your query without much success. I do believe "kalb" and "banuu" mean what they mean "sons/children/family of dog" (This is an izaafat construction of Arabic where the nuun of "banuun" gets dropped. This is the nominative case. In the genitive/accusative cases, it is "banii" as you no doubt would already be aware (cf. banii Israa2iil).

But ibn (plural banuun) does not always mean "son" literally. What about "ibnu_ssabiil" (wayfarer), ibnu_lHarb (soldier), ibnu_lbalad (native), "banuu maa2 assamaa2 (Arabs) etc? By this logic, banuu would mean our "vaale", ya'nii kutte-vaale. This tribe must have had some kind of association with a dog.


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## Faylasoof

BelligerentPacifist said:


> Does the tribe banuu kalb's name mean what it appears to mean?


 BP SaaHib, the usual form I've come across this is as _banuu kilaab_ with ‘kilaab’ being the plural of ‘kalb’ and a very old Arabic name. In fact, _kilaab ibn murrah_ was an ancestor of our Prophet. (Genealogical tree, here). 

Also Hazrat Abbas ibn Ali’s mother (real name Fātimah bint Hizam_ al-__Kilabiyyah_) was of the tribe of _banuu kilaab_ known for producing brave warriors. It was Imam Ali’s older brother, Aqiil (_3qiil ibn abi Taalib_ mentioned here in the Arabic version of the account), an expert on the genealogies of Arab tribes, who told him to marry into this tribe after the death of Hazrat Fatimah, our Prophet’s daughter, if he wanted brave warriors for sons other than the ones from the daughter of the Prophet (viz. al-Hasan & al-Husayn) who were to be kept away from battle in order to preserve the Prophet’s progeny. 

We need to keep in mind that in pre-Islamic times proper names like _kilaab_ may not have been considered unusual or improper. This tradition seems to have persisted after the coming of Islam. See about _banuu kilaab_, here, who obviously kept this name even after accepting Islam. But _kalb_ as a real name wouldn’t have been either proper or popular, I guess. Certainly not during the Islamic period.


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## seaofzaire

you can say "Ap ne kitne kuttay palay hain"


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## tonyspeed

Alfaaz said:


> *Background:* a group of children are watching a popular cartoon (________man dubbed in Urdu, Hindi, Gujrati, Punjabi, Sindhi, etc.)...
> The hero says to the villainess: کتیا! مرنے کے لئے تیار ہوجا kuttiyaa! marne ke liye tayaar ho jaa!
> The children get excited, jumping up and down on the couch and saying: مار _______میں! زور سے مار ---- کو  maar ______man! zor se maar ----- ko!
> 
> 
> A group of _English and Urdu native __men and women _(attending the party) are absolutely mortified, utterly shocked, and cannot believe they are listening to the cartoon and these children using this term with the parents standing there being completely normal and continuing on with their conversations! Talk about a culture shock...



I would think calling a human a female dog would be considered rude in any culture. But maybe more-so in older cultures since they know dogs are quite unclean animals that roam around eating trash and carrion.

Is this scenario real? I cannot see them using that word in a cartoon.


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## Alfaaz

tonyspeed said:
			
		

> Is this scenario real? I cannot see them using that word in a cartoon.


Yes it is, hence the shock! wonder what happened to the nice and simple times with radio plays, U. Sargam, M. Mouse, Pooh, etc.


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## marrish

Alfaaz said:


> Yes it is, hence the shock! wonder what happened to the nice and simple times with radio plays, U. Sargam, M. Mouse, Pooh, etc.



Maybe it was "South Park" or something similar?


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## greatbear

Well, I don't see any big deal if an animated show has the word "kutiyaa" for a human being: there are worse things being said in cartoon shows (and I ain't against them, for to treat children as some immature beings bothers me more, but that anyway is off-topic).


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## Sheikh_14

Btw I would contend that Kuttii is used far more than kutiyaa is in both Urdu and Punjabi. However, fellow members would be correct in saying that whilst one is formal the other is more colloquial. However, what would you call a puppy and that too unoffensively and appropriately? Is pillaa perfectly usable for a puppy and only pejorative when used for a human being?


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