# Other > change ?



## ThomasK

In Dutch and German 'to change' (both to make different and to change as such) is related with 'other'. I'd like to know if that is the case with you too, or what kind of verb you use in order to translate 'to change' (and perhaps why). _[I suggest we do not discuss 'differ(ence)' here except if 'other' and 'different' are the same word in your language]_

Dutch/ German:*ander > veranderen/ (sich) ändern*
Dutch:_* wijzigen* (< wijze,_ mode, way, manner_*)*_ 
German: _wandeln, sich verwandeln_ ? 

English/ French : *other/ autre --- change* (completely different origin)
id.: _*modify/ modifier*_ (< mode, < Lat. modus, manner)



> from L. _cambire_ "to exchange, barter," of Celtic origin, from PIE base _*kamb-_ "to bend, crook" (with a sense evolution perhaps from "to turn" to "to change," to "to barter").


 
So: how about your language?


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## jazyk

(An)other in Portuguese is _outro_, from Latin _alter_, which ultimately gave rise to Portuguese, Spanish, Catalan alterar, French altérer, Italian alterare, Romanian altera, German alterieren, and English alter, among others.


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## Rallino

Turkish:

Başka : other
Başkalaşmak : to transform/alter


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## ThomasK

I must admit I had forgotten about _alter, altérer. O_f course you're right. Do you use other words like _modifier_ or something the like as well? And how about Czech ? 

@Rallino: do you also use other verbs with other roots ?


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## sakvaka

Also in *Finnish*.

_muu_ - other, else
_muuttaa_ - change (tr.)
_muuttua_ - change (intr.)


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## ThomasK

Any alternatives as well, Sakvaka?


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## jazyk

> Do you use other words like modifier or something the like as well?


Sure: mudar, cambiar, trocar, modificar, etc.


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## Fericire

jazyk said:


> Sure: mudar, cambiar, trocar, modificar, etc.



"Alterar" too!


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## Rallino

ThomasK said:


> @Rallino: do you also use other verbs with other roots ?



Yes, we do. We have the verb "değişmek (intr.)" to change, and "değiştirmek (tr.)" to change sth. But the root of this is "değiş-" which shares the same root as 'değişik' = _different_.


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## ThomasK

Great, I see !


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## jazyk

> "Alterar" too!


See post 2.


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## apmoy70

In Greek:
*Other*-->«Άλλος, -η, -ο» ('alos _m._/'ali _f._/'alo _n._), Classical pronoun «ἄλλος, ἄλλη, ἄλλο» ('āllŏs _m._/'āllē _f._/'āllŏ _n._) with identical meaning, PIE base *al-, _beyond_.   
*Change*-->«Αλλαγή» (ala'ʝi _f._), Classical «ἀλλαγὴ» (ăllā'gē _f._), from verb «ἀλλάσσω» (ăllā'ssō)-->_to exchange, alternate, change_, in modern Greek «αλλάζω» (a'lazo); PIE base *al-, _beyond_


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## bibax

Czech:

other: *jiný, jiná, jiné* from *j-oinos (*oinos), related to Latin unus;

to change: *měnit* (změnit, vyměnit, proměnit, zaměnit, směnit, ...) from the root *moin-, related to Latin com-munis and German ge-mein;

*jiný* and *měnit* are not related.

*Měnit* primarily means _to interchange, to barter, to swap, wechseln_, and secondarily _to make different_.

Another verb: *na-hrad-it* (*grad-, *gheld-) = to replace; related to German ver-gelten;


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## ThomasK

Rallino said:


> Yes, we do. We have the verb "değişmek (intr.)" to change, and "(tr.)değiştirmek " to change sth. But the root of this is "değiş-" which shares the same root as 'değişik' = _different_.


 
One question then: can you replace one _change_ verb by the other ? I think there is no transitive verb based on differ in English. I mean: we can say that something differs from the other, but not that I differ [make different] something from the other - we can only distinguish, but that is not the same verb. _değiştirmek_ is not 'to distinguish', is it? Could you explain how you use it ?


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## Selyd

In Ukrainia:
міняти – to change
заміняти - to replace
замінювати, замінити, позамінювати - to replace
видозмінювати - to alter
переміняти, перемінити - one on another
змінювати, змінити - to exchange
перемінювати, переміняти, поперемінювати - one on another
переінакшувати, переінакшити - to make by another, to different
заступати, заступити - one on another
заміщати, замістити - one on another
перетворювати, перетворити, поперетворювати - to transform
обмінювати, обміняти - to barter

змінюватися, змінитися
видозмінюватися
позмінюватися
перемінюватися, перемінитися, поперемінюватися (It is a lot)
перетворюватися, перетворитися, поперетворюватися (It is a lot)
etc.


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## sakvaka

ThomasK said:


> Any alternatives as well, Sakvaka?



Yes, at least _vaihtaa/vaihtua_ and _kääntää/kääntyä_.

vaihtaa/vaihtua
- swap between states
- replace with sth else
- give up sth, let go of sth / put sh else to use
- exchange: give something to someone and receive something from them

muuttaa/muuttua
- affect a property (internal or external), the details or the contents of sth

kääntää/kääntyä
- lit. turn
- only in a few fixed expressions
- _Tilanne kääntyi parempaan suuntaan._ The situation turned for the better.


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## ThomasK

@Selyd: thanks. I would however not consider 'replace' a synonym of 'change'. But am I seeing the same stem in it ? (Is it /mierti/ ???)

@Sakvaka: would you consider them synonyms? I think the _muuttua_ definition is the correct one, but I must admit we could perhaps ) use _veranderen_ in the meaning of _kääntyä_ as well...


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## Favara

jazyk said:


> (An)other in Portuguese is _outro_, from Latin _alter_, which ultimately gave rise to Portuguese, Spanish, Catalan alterar, French altérer, Italian alterare, Romanian altera, German alterieren, and English alter, among others.



This relationship between both words is even more obvious in Catalan, since "other" is _altre_.
("Another" would be _un altre_, literally "an other". I never noticed that.)


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## bibax

Ukrainian *міняти* [minyati] is the same verb like Czech *měniti* = to change.

The verbs *переінакшувати, переінакшити* [pere-inakš-iti] are related to *інакші/інші* [inakši/inši] = other (in Czech jinakší, jinší = other, different).


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## ThomasK

Thanks for your information! I'd like to refer to an earlier message; 


bibax said:


> Czech:
> 
> other: *jiný, jiná, jiné* from *j-oinos (*oinos), related to Latin unus;
> 
> to change: *měnit* (změnit, vyměnit, proměnit, zaměnit, směnit, ...) from the root *moin-, related to Latin com-munis and German ge-mein;


 
Is that j- a negative prefix ? 

The interesting thing is that apparently there is a link between change and exchange, barter, etymologically, somehow semantically. At first sight that is strange to me...


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## sakvaka

ThomasK said:


> @Sakvaka: would you consider them synonyms? I think the _muuttua_ definition is the correct one, but I must admit we could perhaps ) use _veranderen_ in the meaning of _kääntyä_ as well...



They are not perfect synonyms, even if they are both translated into English as 'to change'.

_Voitko vaihtaa tuon rikkinäisen lampun? _Can you change that broken lamp?
_Ilmanpaine muuttuu nopeasti pyörremyrskyn silmässä. _Air pressure changes quickly in the eye of a tropical cyclone.
_Isäni vaihtaa vaihteita liian nopeasti. _My dad changes up and down too quickly (_when driving a car_).

Often, though, there's only a faint difference:

_En ole muuttanut mielipidettäni (or: mieltäni)._ I haven't changed my opinion. (_eg. there are no changes in it_)
_En ole vaihtanut mielipidettäni. _I haven't changed my opinion. (_eg. my opinion is the same, and I haven't replaced it with another_)

Here, 'muuttaa' is probably a bit better because _muuttaa mieltään_ is a fixed expression.

_Liikennevalo vaihtui äsken punaiseksi. _The traffic light just turned red. (_eg. it was green, but now it's red, there was a swap between the two states_)
_Liikennevalo muuttui äsken punaiseksi. _The traffic light just turned red. (_eg. there was a change in its colour_)

Here, 'vaihtaa' is probably a bit better because traffic lights don't change their colours but one colour is set off and another is set on.


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## ThomasK

Thanks a lot for these interesting considerations. I must point out though that in my view 'replace' and 'change' are not real synonyms, which appears from the fact that they behave differently syntactically, I think: _replace_ implies a _by + _other 'substance', whereas changing refers to the substance of the subject itself. I wonder whether I am right...


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## sakvaka

If I change my keyboard layout to Greek, I'm replacing it with something else, aren't I?

When I say 'replace', I don't mean the actual verb but rather the idea of letting go of something and getting something else instead. We have the independent verb _to replace_, ie. _korvata_. But it takes the adessive case while _vaihtaa_ is used with illative/(translative).


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## ThomasK

well, you are - but I am not so sure though. I agree: I think the original meaning is non-metaphorical, and refers to substitution. Interesting to hear one verb is not the other. But I have to run now. Sorry !


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## Rallino

ThomasK said:


> One question then: can you replace one _change_ verb by the other ? I think there is no transitive verb based on differ in English. I mean: we can say that something differs from the other, but not that I differ [make different] something from the other - we can only distinguish, but that is not the same verb. _değiştirmek_ is not 'to distinguish', is it? Could you explain how you use it ?


 
Do you mean if we can use "değişmek (intr.)" and "değiştirmek (tr.)" interchangeably? — We can't.

Ex: 
1. Konuyu değiştirdim : I changed the topic.
2. Konu değişti : The topic (has) changed.

Note that in the first example I used 'konu_yu_' — that is accusative. 



P.S. To distinguish = ayırt etmek, comes from the verb _*ayır*mak - to separate (tr.)_. So we say: _To render two things (more) separate from one another, so that each detail is clearly visible._


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## ThomasK

Perfect information. So one _değiş-_ is a causative verb of the other... 

But I am not so sure I understand the explanation concerning _distinguish_ : 'to distinguish' in Turkish is a variant (...) of 'to separate', you mean?


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## er targyn

In Kazakh to change is өзгеру (özge-r-), to change smth. - өзгерту (özge-r-t-), from өзге (özge) "other, different". The -t- affix is causative.


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## ancalimon

Rallino said:


> Yes, we do. We have the verb "değişmek (intr.)" to change, and "değiştirmek (tr.)" to change sth. But the root of this is "değiş-" which shares the same root as 'değişik' = _different_.



We also have "DİĞER": Other (from Persian or Middle Persian I guess)


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## ThomasK

But no DİĞER-verb, I believe. Or do you ?


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## ancalimon

ThomasK said:


> But no DİĞER-verb, I believe. Or do you ?



Not on its own. We would need suffixes and I'm not sure whether it would be suitable for this word or not.

Still we have DEĞİŞ which means "to change, to alter, to convert, to alternate,...".  I don't know if Diğer (other) and Değiş (to change) are related or not.

Tuncer Gülensoy's Turkish etymology dictionary gives me the following:

Değiş < *teg (ulaşmak, erişmek ; to reach, to achieve, to achieve, to attain..., "also to touch")

I add this:   denk: equal, match, reflection, coherent

We also have DEĞER: value (both price and Value judgment), worth, supreme quality-property-attribute, person of great merit. It also means "it touches, it fulfills, it reaches, it achieves, it's worthy"

The plus sign in a circle was one of these DEĞER. It's also related to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labrys



> This part is my own idea. I think DEĞER and DEĞİŞ are strongly related and maybe are related to umm   deg, degire, teker, döngü:  round, the circle, the wheel, looping. And also the + sign inside the circle in which the two gamma signs are "others" opposites of each other.


also found this:  Bulg. > Hung. tµk£r 'mirror'  http://www.ieed.nl/cgi-bin/response..._any=tekirme&method_any=substring&sort=number

I also think "ters" (reverse, opposite, inverse) could be related to diğer (other)-değiş (change) as well

Note: sorry for unnecessary information​


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## ThomasK

Great information, don't worry. But is there no difference between the di- and the de- adjective? For example: one is 'other', the other means 'different'? _(I don't know, just enquiring)_ Can you substitute one by the other?

I don't understand the labrys symbolism though: I see an axe, not a circle and a plus/ circle. But I d'love to understand !


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## vianie

ThomasK said:


> Is that j- a negative prefix ?


 
That's not, in any case. Its origin has more prosaic background, which is most probably related with the development of Czech phonetics. But bibax knows better.


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## bibax

That j- is the so-called pro(s)thetic consonant. Proto-Czech (and generally Common Slavic) didn't love hiatus and avoided it by adding an extra consonant (usually j-, v- or h-) to the words beginning with a vowel. There are only few (cca 10) Czech words beginning with a- and i- and no Czech word beginning with e-.


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## ancalimon

ThomasK said:


> Great information, don't worry. But is there no difference between the di- and the de- adjective? For example: one is 'other', the other means 'different'? _(I don't know, just enquiring)_ Can you substitute one by the other?
> 
> I don't understand the labrys symbolism though: I see an axe, not a circle and a plus/ circle. But I d'love to understand !



I don't think di and de can be substitutes. Unfortunately I don't have any such knowledge.

The + sign in a circle is the same thing as a labrys if you look closely.

They are both + or x  signs.  The labrys repserents ruling by authority. (as in who holds the axe cuts the head) But in Turkic culture, the X represented  masculinity and femininity in a symbiosis.  The V is the female representation and the reserve V is the male one. It represented superiority and authority of only and only Tengri (the God) over every other thing.

I think someone made the labrys and the + sign some kind of masculine-male superiority and also related it with labyrinth and mind-memorization.


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## ThomasK

Thanks, Vianie and Bibax, the reason for my j-question was that 'unus', one, is the one meaning that I would not expect as a basis of the word 'other'. You see? 

Thanks for the extra o+v information, ancalimon!


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## bibax

> Thanks, Vianie and Bibax, the reason for my j-question was that 'unus', one, is the one meaning that I would not expect as a basis of the word 'other'. You see?


The Czech *jiný* (Proto-Slavic **inъ* = other, anderer, alius) is basically PIE *oinos (cf. unus, eins, one), after some phonetic changes. The meaning 'other' evolved from such sentences like

one sows, one reaps;
one sows, another reaps;
some sow, others reap;
others sow, others reap (= _alii - alii_ in idiomatic Latin);

The Czech cardinal numeral *jeden* (= one) is from PS **edinъ*, from  PIE **ed-*oinos*.


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## ThomasK

Really, that is amazing to me. But OK, that's the way we learn! _(Just BTW: are you quite sure? ;-))_


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## bibax

> (Just BTW: are you quite sure? ;-))


Professor Václav Machek (a Czech prominent linguist/etymologist, 1894-1965) was quite sure. 

In any case, the PIE **oinos* evolved into Proto-Slavic **inъ* (meaning 'other', NOT 'one'). It is for sure.

(ъ is so-called hard yer, a back vowel, probably ultra short u)


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## ThomasK

Great information, and I certainly did not feel like calling in your knowledge in doubt !


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## francisgranada

_*Hungarian*_

*más* other
*másik* another
*második* second

**************************
*másít* change, alter, modify (_trans_.)
*másol* makes a copy (_trans_.)

*vált* change, exchange (also money)
*változik* change (_intrans_. becomes different)
*változtat* change (_trans_. makes different)

*cserél* change, exchange, replace 

*módosul* modify (_intransit_.)
*módosít* modify (_transit_.)

1. The Hung. verbs are in 3rd pers. sg.
2. All the verbs are used also with various prefixes
3._ Másít_ is used less frequently the other verbs


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## ThomasK

So do you count: *first*, *második, three* (Google T: első, második, harmadik)*?* But what is your other verb for chaning besides _Másít_ ? 

_Just BTW: what does the -ik mean? And: don't your 3rd pers. have the same endings? _


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## francisgranada

ThomasK said:


> So do you count .... első, második, harmadik? ...


 
Yes (OT, but the word _second_ used to be derived from other words than _two_ in many laguages, e.g. English, Slavic, Romance ...)



> But what is your other verb for chaning besides _Másít_ ?


_változik, változtat ..._ or what's question?



> _Just BTW: what does the -ik mean? And: don't your 3rd pers. have the same endings? _


_-ik_ is the 3rd pers. sg. ending only in some verbs. Typically, the 3rd pers. sg. has no ending in the indefinite conjugation.
_-ik_ in case of _másik_ (egyik, szebbik etc...) is an other thing (OT to be discussed here)


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## mataripis

Tagalog:  To change= Baguhin,  to make changes= magkaroon ng pagbabago,  cause changes= maging dahilan ng pagbabago,  changeable= pabago-bago, change in position= magbago ng tayo' o posisyon.  The word " Baguhin" has root word " Bago" means "New".


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## ThomasK

That is interesting. Don't you have a separate word for _other_ though, or for _different_?


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