# 日本刀が必要で



## Dave_82au

Hi,
I have a couple of questions regarding a Japanese line from the film Kill Bill, specifically the scene where The Bride travels to Okinawa to obtain a sword. The rules for these forums say I'm not allowed to post a YouTube link, but, well, you might be able to find it if you searched for it.  (And the line I'm asking about might even be 4:30 into one titled "服部 半蔵 Kill Bill: The Man from Okinawa, Bar Scene".)

Now, the line in question is where The Bride tells Hanzo that she needs a sword. Firstly, it sounds to me like she's saying 「日本刀が必要で」, however the last syllable has me confused. Is it actually supposed to be 「日本刀が必要です」, and she's just dropped the す from the end? Or is she saying something else which I've failed to understand?

The second thing I was wondering concerns the exact meaning of 必要. Can it be used to describe something you possess (but still require), or only something you lack? As an example, if you are currently wearing glasses, could you use 必要 to say that you need glasses, or could you only say that if you had lost your glasses (or weren't wearing them)?

If anyone's wondering, the exact context for this is that I have an old, Japanese steel frame bicycle which I'm restoring, and I was thinking of painting that quote on the frame, since it's translated in the film as "I need Japanese steel." (I'm aware that the literal meaning is "Japanese sword", rather than "steel".) I want to make sure though, that it would still make sense in that context, and if 必要 literally means "lacking", then that might be a problem.

Thanks!


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## Yabanjin

Dave_82au said:


> 4:30 into one titled "服部 半蔵 Kill Bill: The Man from Okinawa, Bar Scene".


Found it.


Dave_82au said:


> Now, the line in question is where The Bride tells Hanzo that she needs a sword. Firstly, it sounds to me like she's saying 「日本刀が必要で」, however the last syllable has me confused. Is it actually supposed to be 「日本刀が必要です」, and she's just dropped the す from the end? Or is she saying something else which I've failed to understand?


No, "de" is what she said. The "de" is like "because" in "because I need a Japanese sword".


Dave_82au said:


> The second thing I was wondering concerns the exact meaning of 必要. Can it be used to describe something you possess (but still require), or only something you lack? As an example, if you are currently wearing glasses, could you use 必要 to say that you need glasses, or could you only say that if you had lost your glasses (or weren't wearing them)?


It's OK for both. It's much the same as "necessary" in English. "Lacking" might be たりない or something.


Dave_82au said:


> If anyone's wondering, the exact context for this is that I have an old, Japanese steel frame bicycle which I'm restoring, and I was thinking of painting that quote on the frame, since it's translated in the film as "I need Japanese steel." (I'm aware that the literal meaning is "Japanese sword", rather than "steel".) I want to make sure though, that it would still make sense in that context, and if 必要 literally means "lacking", then that might be a problem.


Well, it doesn't make sense, but nobody cares anyway.


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## Dave_82au

Yabanjin said:


> No, "de" is what she said. The "de" is like "because" in "because I need a Japanese sword".


Ah, I see. So is that usage a form of particle "de" then?

[edit]
Actually, I've just done some research indicating that this で could be the te-form of a na-adjective. Is that correct? If so, I still don't understand exactly how it's working. 
[/edit]



> Well, it doesn't make sense, but nobody cares anyway.


Interesting... In what way doesn't it make sense? Do you mean because out of the context of the conversation in the film, it's answering a question that hasn't been asked?

Thanks!


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## rukiak

Dave_82au said:


> 「日本刀が必要で」


Japanese says "日本刀が必要なんです。"　rather than 　"日本刀が必要で。" for that situation.
The meaning is like what Yabanjin explains.


Dave_82au said:


> If anyone's wondering, the exact context for this is that I have an old, Japanese steel frame bicycle which I'm restoring, and I was thinking of painting that quote on the frame, since it's translated in the film as "I need Japanese steel." (I'm aware that the literal meaning is "Japanese sword", rather than "steel".) I want to make sure though, that it would still make sense in that context, and if 必要 literally means "lacking", then that might be a problem.Thanks!


What do you exaclty mean with "then that might be a problem"?

Anyway,
1. if you are wondering if it makes sense to write 日本刀 as the meaning of "Japanese steel", the answer is "No".
"刀" and "鋼" are different, and as you must know,  sword and steel are different. Even though English word "steel" can means sword, it doesn"t mean that sword means "steel", and what is more, Japanese words "鋼" and "刀" are not interchangeable.

2.If you are tring to find some Japanese term, we may be able to give you advices, but for that, we need more context and detailed information (What kind of term you are seaching?).


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## Yabanjin

Dave_82au said:


> Interesting... In what way doesn't it make sense?


Let me explain. You now know that 日本刀が必要で means "Because I need a Japanese sword". As it happens, the sentence "Because I need a Japanese sword" written on a bicycle doesn't make sense. In the same way, consider the following: if you wrote "Because I need a Japanese bicycle" on a Japanese sword, that wouldn't make sense. And it doesn't start making more sense because it's written in Japanese. To understand your witticism would require someone with a virtually perfect memory who has not only seen "Kill Bill" but who remembers all the Japanese dialogue, and also all the subtitles, and also can read Japanese.


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## Wishfull

Hi.
(About the difference of _Japanese sward_ and _Japanese steel_)

I think this is the translator's careless mistake or his/her paraphrasing.
If it is his/her paraphrasing, I think it is not so bad.

For example, 
Oh, you say you need a Japanese *sward?*
And you say you can use the *samurai-spirit*?
I think it's impossible for you to use the Japanese *treasure.*
And export of the Japanese* steel* is banned by the Government.

In this context, sward=samurai-spirit=treasure=steel.
I think paraphrasing is one advanced-language-techunique which prevents us from boring to hear the same word.
So I do not mind if it is translated as "Japanese steel".

Do you agree with me?


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## Yabanjin

Wishfull said:


> (About the difference of _Japanese sward_ and _Japanese steel_)
> 
> I think this is the translator's careless mistake or his/her paraphrasing.


I don't think it's either. Since the script of the film would have been in English originally, the translation must have been from English into Japanese. Presumably the Japanese translator was given the line "I need Japanese steel" and turned steel into 日本刀 since (maybe) it wouldn't have made much sense to Japanese people as 日本の鋼が必要で


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## rukiak

Yabanjin said:


> Since the script of the film would have been in English originally, the translation must have been from English into Japanese. Presumably the Japanese translator was given the line "I need Japanese steel"


You have a deep insight. I never thought of that.



Yabanjin said:


> and turned steel into 日本刀 since (maybe) it wouldn't have made much sense to Japanese people as 日本の鋼が必要で


Right. Generally speaking, "鋼" is much less common than "鉄" or "ステンレス" for Japanese.
("So 日本の鋼が必要で" wouldn't ring a bell with us. For me, it takes a few seconds to get the picture...)

However, the use of steel or "鋼" in that situation sounds very sophisticated to me. Because steel is made and consists of iron, carbon and other elements uniquely.  it is necessary to use materials in Japan and be made by a certain Japanese swordsmith to get certain japanese steel.
Steel is the key of swords. Especially as for the Japanese sword, once steel is uniquely finished, that means a unique sword is finished, unique in terms of quality and appearance.
So "I need Japanese steel" implies that I need Japanese steel-materials and swordsmith.


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## Yabanjin

Dave_82au said:


> So is that usage a form of particle "de" then?
> Actually, I've just done some research indicating that this で could be the te-form of a na-adjective. Is that correct? If so, I still don't understand exactly how it's working.


As one suggested reference, how about "A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar" by Makino and Tsutsui, p. 107.


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## Wishfull

Hi.
I would like to insist of my idea.

What is "Japanese steel" in this context?
There are a lot of steels made in Japan.
For example, a steel desk made in Japan, a steel car body made in Japan, a reinforcing steel bar made in Japan for building material.
And the compound ratio of iron and carbon and other elements are all different from each other. 
"Japanese steel"s are not just one thing.

Did she need "Japanese steel for desk"?
I don't think so.
She definitely needed "Steel for Japanese sward".
She definitely needed some material which was very strong. And the material is not only Japanese steel but also Japanese steel for the purpose of making Japanese sward, not for desks.

Then, did she just want the material?
After getting it, she was trying to make the sward by herself?
I don't think so.
I think she definitely needed the end-product/completed product which was the sward.



In this sense, practically, I think "Japanese steel" in this context means "日本刀".
I think they are nearly identical and paraphrasing in a sense.

Could anyone agree with me?
You know? I'm not talking about literary aspect but rather physical aspect or practical aspect.


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## rukiak

Wishful, you can say that again.
No one disagrees with you (from the very first).
I (and maybe the others) agree with the use of words in the film, but not agree with the use of "日本刀" for characters for painting the Japanese steel frame bicycle for the meaning of "Japanese steel".


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## RomanticBoy

I think it is quite an original thing to put on a bike. And the link between the steel of the bike and a sword is quite witty, especially with the allusion to Kill Bill. Go for it!


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## Wishfull

Hi, friends, thank you.
Gradually I understand the point which I don't understand.
What is "painting the Japanese steel frame bicycle"?
Why the bike and sword is quite witty?
Perhaps, it must be the bike which is witty, not my desk story, right?
Please help me a little more. I think I'm a stranger about this discussion, not yet.


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## Yabanjin

Wishfull said:


> What is "painting the Japanese steel frame bicycle"?


Dave has a pedal-driven vehicle whose material of construction is a generally hard, strong, durable, malleable alloy of iron and carbon. This wheeled conveyance was originally manufactured in "the land of the rising sun". Dave intends to inscribe the motto in question on it using coloured pigment.


Wishfull said:


> Why the bike and sword is quite witty?


Because Dave's favoured mode of vehicular transportation bears an inscription with an explanation of why he has thus favoured it, said reasons being its metallic nature and country of origin.


Wishfull said:


> Perhaps, it must be the bike which is witty, not my desk story, right?


The nature of this witticism is the reference to the dialogue of a certain motion picture featuring the bountious talents of the pulchritudinous Uma Thurman as well as the late John Carradine, star of TV series "Kung Fu" and movie "Death Race 2000", in the eponymous role of Bill. However, please note that, in order to avoid confusion, although horse in Japanese is "uma", Uma Thurman is not a horse, nor even a donkey.


Wishfull said:


> Please help me a little more. I think I'm a stranger about this discussion, not yet.


There are no strangers here, just friends you haven't met.


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## Dave_82au

Yabanjin said:


> Let me explain. You now know that 日本刀が必要で means "Because I need a Japanese sword". As it happens, the sentence "Because I need a Japanese sword" written on a bicycle doesn't make sense. In the same way, consider the following: if you wrote "Because I need a Japanese bicycle" on a Japanese sword, that wouldn't make sense. And it doesn't start making more sense because it's written in Japanese.


Ah, yes. I'd considered that, but I guess I was stuck in the mindset that I'd be the one translating it for anyone who asked, and could just say, "It was translated in the film as..."



Yabanjin said:


> To understand your witticism would require someone with a virtually perfect memory who has not only seen "Kill Bill" but who remembers all the Japanese dialogue, and also all the subtitles, and also can read Japanese.


To be honest, it'd probably work even better if they couldn't read Japanese and I just lied to them about the translation. Although if taking that route, perhaps I should write "あなたは日本語が読めない" and tell them it means "I need Japanese Steel". 



Yabanjin said:


> I don't think it's either. Since the script of the film would have been in English originally, the translation must have been from English into Japanese. Presumably the Japanese translator was given the line "I need Japanese steel" and turned steel into 日本刀 since (maybe) it wouldn't have made much sense to Japanese people as 日本の鋼が必要で


Agreed. Both the English subtitles and the continuation of their conversation in spoken English use the word "steel", so its use was certainly deliberate.



Wishfull said:


> In this sense, practically, I think "Japanese steel" in this context means "日本刀".
> I think they are nearly identical and paraphrasing in a sense.
> 
> Could anyone agree with me?
> You know? I'm not talking about literary aspect but rather physical aspect or practical aspect.


This is correct. In this context (telling a sword maker that you need "steel"), "steel" would obviously mean "sword" to a native English speaker. It is not a common usage, but probably used in the film because it sounds more interesting than "I need a Japanese sword".


Thanks for your help everyone, I'm still deciding what to do, but am now thinking that this might not be a worthwhile idea.


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## Wishfull

Yabanjin said:


> The nature of this witticism is the reference to the dialogue of a certain motion picture featuring the bountious talents of the pulchritudinous Uma Thurman as well as the late John Carradine, star of TV series "Kung Fu" and movie "Death Race 2000", in the eponymous role of Bill. However, please note that, in order to avoid confusion, although horse in Japanese is "uma", Uma Thurman is not a horse, nor even a donkey.



Thank you Yabanjin. It has become clearer now.
So my feeling of alienation came from my lack of background knowledge. 

Thanks to you, I now know that Uma Thur*man* is not a horse, nor even a man, though she might have a horsy face.


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## RomanticBoy

This thread is very funny! And all because the Bride/mother/Beatrix/Black Mamba (is that the right code name for her?) wanted some Japanese steel to kill a large rat and Hattori Hanzo was sympathetic to her aims!


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## rukiak

Not funny, technically...


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