# Slovenian: poučevati četrti razred



## *cat*

Hello,

Do we say "I had a chance of independent teaching fourth class." or "I had a chance of independent teaching the fourth class." or "I had a chance of independent teaching in the fourth class."?

Original text:
Imela sem priložnost samostojnega poučevanja v 4. razredu / 4. razreda.


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## TriglavNationalPark

I would simply say: "I had the opportunity to teach fourth grade." I think this implies that your teaching was "independent" -- or do you really need to emphasize that aspect? "Independent teaching" is not a common phrase in English, at least not in this context. A Google search of "independent teaching" brings up pages mentioning teaching outside of schools, face-to-face instruction, and so on.


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## *cat*

TriglavNationalPark said:


> I would simply say: "I had the opportunity to teach fourth grade." I think this implies that your teaching was "independent" -- or do you really need to emphasize that aspect? "Independent teaching" is not a common phrase in English, at least not in this context. A Google search of "independent teaching" brings up pages mentioning teaching outside of schools, face-to-face instruction, and so on.



Thank you for your reply.
I want to have that word, because this teaching is part of education - not yet a teacher, but some kind of practice. I'm writing this in dissertation (diplomsko delo).

Also, I noticed you wrote "fourth grade" and not "fourth class" - is it better that way?

"I had the opportunity for independent teaching the fourth grade." - ?
Would that go?


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## TriglavNationalPark

*cat* said:


> Thank you for your reply.
> I want to have that word, because this teaching is part of education - not yet a teacher, but some kind of practice. I'm writing this in dissertation (diplomsko delo).
> 
> Also, I noticed you wrote "fourth grade" and not "fourth class" - is it better that way?
> 
> "I had the opportunity for independent teaching the fourth grade." - ?
> Would that go?


 
"Class" and "grade" are closely related, but they are not perfectly synonymous. A "class" is a group of students being taught something, whereas the word "grade" refers specifically to the academic level of a group of students. For instance, a school may have several classes in which fourth graders are taught. You could say, "Joe is also in fourth grade, but he's not in my daughter's class." In the Slovenian class designation *5a*, for instance, the "5" refers to the grade, whereas the "a" refers to the specific class. In a slightly different context, a student in fifth "grade" may enjoy her math "class."

In other words, you may "teach a class (of students)", but you "teach fourth grade" (as an abstract level of education; note the absence of a definite article in this case).

This is valid for AmE, by the way. BrE use may vary, so I would invite BrE speakers to speak up as well.

I'm afraid I can't help you with "independent teaching." Are you referring to independent teaching under the guidance of a mentor/instructor? If you feel that "independent teaching" will be understood by your audience, then by all means go with it, but if you're not sure, you may want to add a few words explaining the concept.


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## *cat*

TriglavNationalPark said:


> "Class" and "grade" are closely related, but they are not perfectly synonymous. A "class" is a group of students being taught something, whereas the word "grade" refers specifically to the academic level of a group of students. For instance, a school may have several classes in which fourth graders are taught. You could say, "Joe is also in fourth grade, but he's not in my daughter's class." In the Slovenian class designation *5a*, for instance, the "5" refers to the grade, whereas the "a" refers to the specific class. In a slightly different context, a student in fifth "grade" may enjoy her math "class."
> 
> In other words, you may "teach a class (of students)", but you "teach fourth grade" (as an abstract level of education; note the absence of a definite article in this case).
> 
> This is valid for AmE, by the way. BrE use may vary, so I would invite BrE speakers to speak up as well.
> 
> I'm afraid I can't help you with "independent teaching." Are you referring to independent teaching under the guidance of a mentor/instructor? If you feel that "independent teaching" will be understood by your audience, then by all means go with it, but if you're not sure, you may want to add a few words explaining the concept.



Thank you very very much for the explanation of grade/class.

Independent teaching - I would like to stress that there's no other person there in the classroom - no "real teacher", no mentor ...


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## pikabu

I wondered about the context of this "samostojno poučevanje" and finding it here, here's my reply: 

I also don't find this term very comprehensible, not in Slovene nor in English (and I had some pedagogical subjects while studying) so I would prefer the explication instead of use of this phrase. If you want to emphasis the fact, that you were all alone in the classroom, a good explication would be, in my opinion, better than a "forced" translation.


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## *cat*

pikabu said:


> I wondered about the context of this "samostojno poučevanje" and finding it here, here's my reply:
> 
> I also don't find this term very comprehensible, not in Slovene nor in English (and I had some pedagogical subjects while studying) so I would prefer the explication instead of use of this phrase. If you want to emphasis the fact, that you were all alone in the classroom, a good explication would be, in my opinion, better than a "forced" translation.



Thank you for your opinion. I'll give it a second thought ...


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## Glitz

*cat* said:


> Thank you very very much for the explanation of grade/class.
> 
> Independent teaching - I would like to stress that there's no other person there in the classroom - no "real teacher", no mentor ...


 
Grade is a word that you would only hear used in American English. In standard English if someone was it their 4th year of education you would say they are in Class four, not in fourth grade. In standard English you would say, " I had the oppertunity to independently teach a class of year 4 students."


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## TriglavNationalPark

Glitz said:


> Grade is a word that you would only hear used in American English. In standard English if someone was it their 4th year of education you would say they are in Class four, not in fourth grade. In standard English you would say, " I had the oppertunity to independently teach a class of year 4 students."



There is no single standard of English. British and American English are two different but entirely equal standards of the language. Because I was educated in the United States and am therefore familiar with AmE, I explicitly invited BrE users to explain how BrE handles this situation.

Any implication that British English is somehow the single "standard" form of the language is inaccurate, offensive, and utterly ridiculous.


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## Glitz

TriglavNationalPark said:


> There is no single standard of English. British and American English are two different but entirely equal standards of the language. Because I was educated in the United States and am therefore familiar with AmE, I explicitly invited BrE users to explain how BrE handles this situation.
> 
> Any implication that British English is somehow the single "standard" form of the language is inaccurate, offensive, and utterly ridiculous.


 
I think your missing the point completley, it's not a matter of being offensive or ridiculous. By using the word 'grade' you are specifically targeting an American audience. Just as you wouldn't write to an American person using specifically British words, rather you would use standard English (when I say standard I'm not trying to imply superior version). American English evolved from British English, not the other way round.


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## TriglavNationalPark

Glitz said:


> I think your missing the point completley, it's not a matter of being offensive or ridiculous. By using the word 'grade' you are specifically targeting an American audience. Just as you wouldn't write to an American person using specifically British words, rather you would use standard English (when I say standard I'm not trying to imply superior version). American English evolved from British English, not the other way round.


 
By "ridiculous", I'm referring specifically to your use of the term "standard English" to describe British English in contrast to American English. In reality, both AmE and BrE are "standard English" in their respective countries. In non-English speaking countries such as Slovenia, individuals may decide to use either one. I would argue that familiarity with both is a good thing.

If translating the Slovenian word *razred* as "grade" makes me sound as if I'm targeting an American audience, then your use of the term "year 4" makes you sound as if you're trageting a British audience. (After all, that's what the UK school system uses.) What's the issue here? Let people learn both.

Your contention that AmE evolved from BrE is somewhat simplistic; many words present in BrE today have AmE origins. In fact, English as we know it would be very different today had it not been for substantial and pervasive American influence. And it almost certainly wouldn't be the world's _lingua franca_ today without the United States. But regardless of how you feel about this, the variety of English spoken in the world's largest English-speaking country is not an adjunct of British English, just as Croatian has never been an adjunct of Serbian, even when it was officially classified as Serbo-Croatian. It was another standard of the same language. The same applies to AmE's relationship to BrE.

I propose that we move on.


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## sokol

Mod note:

We have a British and an American English opinion now, so far so good. 
Further opinions are of course welcome, as well as suggestions for other English national varieties.

But please, try and focus on *language *topics. Any argument as to which variety is "more correct" is pointless as well as off-topic (in all forums) - for a simple reason: they're all correct in their respective nations. 

Thanks!
sokol


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## The Wombat

*cat* said:


> Thank you for your reply.
> I want to have that word, because this teaching is part of education - not yet a teacher, but some kind of practice. I'm writing this in dissertation (diplomsko delo).
> 
> Also, I noticed you wrote "fourth grade" and not "fourth class" - is it better that way?
> 
> "I had the opportunity for independent teaching the fourth grade." - ?
> Would that go?



G'day *cat*,

Why not simply say: _

- I had the opportunity to independently teach the fourth grade (class, year) students (pupils). _

Also if You would want to put stress on the independence in teaching then for example it could be the following:

_- I had the opportunity to __teach, __independently, __fourth grade (class, year) students (pupils).  _

It does not really matter whether You shall use class, grade or year and students or pupils. 

As long as You are consistent in the choice of words, avoid mixing localities and just stick to one neck of the woods, anyone who will eventually read the treatise shall have no problems in understanding.

Regardless of the actual word count, of the Queen's English, You still can choose from vocabulary that is over one million words strong.

Cheers


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## The Wombat

*cat*,

I could not stop thinking about this subject, and I have asked myself why do You insist on using the word *independent*.

There are quite a few other ways to convey to a reader the fact that You were presented and have used an opportunity to teach a class, of fourth year children, entirely on your own. 

True, independent does mean - _Free from external control and constraint._ 

Doing something on your own in principle means the same thing. Perhaps You can say that You have performed self-directed teaching of a fourth year class.

You can also use several other words or phrases, like autonomously, singly, self-reliantly... these are the first that come to my mind. There is no need for You to put constraints on expressing yourself, use all means to communicate your thoughts and your actions. 

On a second thought, if You insist on using word independent, use it, but do not cram it all in one sentence. Use several sentences to describe the class, the way and the manner of how You have conducted the teaching. 

I seriously doubt that You have the upper limit on word count for the treatise for your diploma exam.

We have not yet exhausted the means, there still are quite a few different ways that You can use to say it, it is up to You to decide how to do it.

I wish You luck!

Cheers


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## *cat*

The Wombat said:


> Why not simply say: _
> 
> - I had the opportunity to independently teach the fourth grade (class, year) students (pupils). _



U, I like that!


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