# Work



## timpeac

Is work something that is a good end in itself? In other words is doing something which others view as productive a meaningful goal?

The reason I ask is that I've just heard on the news about the death of some TV presenter I've never heard of. His family said he "was working up to the day before his death" according the journalist with a crack of emotion in her voice suggesting this was something to be proud of.

If I'd been "working" up until the day before my death rather than off doing things that were meaningful for me and most certainly not considered work by others then I wouldn't die a happy bunny. What say you?


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## natasha2000

Work made a man, said someone whose name somehow I cannot remember now ....

Serously, I couldn't live without working, and I couldn't be happy if I didn't work something I like. That does not necessarily mean I am workoholic. If I knew I would die soon, I certainly wouldn't "continue working until the last breath". I would prefer to die as "happy bunny", doing things I have always wanted to do, but never had time, like bungie jumping (or whatever it is spelled), for instance...


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## timpeac

natasha2000 said:


> Work made a man, said someone whose name somehow I cannot remember now ....
> 
> Serously, I couldn't live without working, and I couldn't be happy if I didn't work something I like. That does not necessarily mean I am workoholic. If I knew I would die soon, I certainly wouldn't "continue working until the last breath". I would prefer to die as "happy bunny", doing things I have always wanted to do, but never had time, like bungie jumping (or whatever it is spelled), for instance...


I see, I think, what you mean is that the family are suggesting by "he was working up to the day before he died" that "he was living a normal and happy life and didn't suffer, didn't spend months stressing about the fact he was unwell and might die soon but that it was swift and sudden". Interesting, I hadn't thought of that.


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## natasha2000

timpeac said:


> I see, I think, what you mean is that the family are suggesting by "he was working up to the day before he died" that "he was living a normal and happy life and didn't suffer, didn't spend months stressing about the fact he was unwell and might die soon but that it was swift and sudden". Interesting, I hadn't thought of that.


 
Ooops! I was just answering to your question:


> Is work something that is a good end in itself? In other words is doing something which others view as productive a meaningful goal?


 
I wouldn't know what to say about this TV presenter, really. First I don't know what did he die of, if his death was sudden and violent or he was ill and was dying slowly, if he knew about his illness or not...

I will suppose he was aware of his close death due to some kind of terminal illness. In a way, him working until the last day would be a positive thing, meaning he never gave up. He lead a normal life until the last minute. But on the other hand, I wouldn't do the same. I prefer your version of a happy bunny doing all foolishness he alwaus wanted to do but never had nerve to do it...


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## ireney

Working for pleasure is good and healthy and whatnot. Having to work for a living is not.

For the religious among us I will remind that having to sweat for our bread was a punishment God inflicted upon Adam and his descendants. Even if one does not believe this shows that the biblical Hebrews (or is it Jews? I always forget what I have been told on the matter of biblical reference to the Hebrews/Jews) saw things clearly.

Another example I always bring up is the following. In Greek the word for slavery is δουλεία (doulIa). The word for work is δουλειά (douliA) which comes from doulIa


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## timpeac

ireney said:


> Working for pleasure is good and healthy and whatnot. Having to work for a living is not.
> 
> For the religious among us I will remind that having to sweat for our bread was a punishment God inflicted upon Adam and his descendants. Even if one does not believe this shows that the biblical Hebrews (or is it Jews? I always forget what I have been told on the matter of biblical reference to the Hebrews/Jews) saw things clearly.


Wow, really - how does it view those born in the position of not having to work then, and moreover those born into a position of not having to work who don't either? Surely they can't conclude that they are not descendants of Adam (= not human??) or do they? Does this suggest that work is both a punishment and a validation, we are punished to have to work, but do not exist in any meaningful sense unless we can be seen to produce something valuable to others?


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## SpiceMan

ireney said:


> Another example I always bring up is the following. In Greek the word for slavery is δουλεία (doulIa). The word for work is δουλειά (douliA) which comes from doulIa


Wow! .... WOW!!!

I never thought that greek language is the language that reflects best my feelings towards working. 

In Spanish there's a phrase ("el trabajo dignifica" - "work dignifies") and I think that reflects how a good share of the world population regards working.

From my point of view, working is an imposition from the enviroment. As an imposition, in a polarized way of thinking, it makes me feel less free. How can anyone think that an imposition is dignifying, puzzles me.

In this society, however, it's something "natural". Kind of like breathing: you just have to do it in order to live. How "breathing" is dignifying puzzles me too.


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## natasha2000

SpiceMan said:


> Wow! .... WOW!!!
> 
> I never thought that greek language is the language that reflects best my feelings towards working.
> 
> In Spanish there's a phrase ("el trabajo dignifica" - "work dignifies") and I think that reflects how a good share of the world population regards working.
> 
> From my point of view, working is an imposition from the enviroment. As an imposition, in a polarized way of thinking, it makes me feel less free. How can anyone think that an imposition is dignifying, puzzles me.
> 
> In this society, however, it's something "natural". Kind of like breathing: you just have to do it in order to live. How "breathing" is dignifying puzzles me too.


But... You feel the same towards ANY kind of work? What if the work you have to do is something you like to do? something that you are so passionate about, something that occupies your toughts very often? What if work is not just a work you have to do in order to survive, but is a real vocation? and above all, you even earn money doing what you like? Such people exist, too, you know...


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## Etcetera

timpeac said:


> Is work something that is a good end in itself? In other words is doing something which others view as productive a meaningful goal?
> <...>
> If I'd been "working" up until the day before my death rather than off doing things that were meaningful for me and most certainly not considered work by others then I wouldn't die a happy bunny. What say you?


I'd say the same. 
I'm almost sure that I'd never get the job of my dream (that is, writing books on history or the British literature), but even if I'd be so damned lucky, I have a lot of other interests, so no job would ever be able to satisfy me. 
In my opinion, there should be some 'balance' between working and doing what you like and find meaningful for you. 
And certainly, one should think more about their family!


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## Nunty

In Hebrew the word for worship and the word for work are exactly the same word: _avoda. _As a contemplative nun my primary work is prayer, and the other things I do -- translating, writing, cleaning, cooking, nursing or whatever -- are only to provide a framework for that. Our very old sisters in their 80s and 90s are working very hard. They cannot do physical things anymore, for the most part, so they spend their days in prayer.

I guess it depends on what you mean by "work", but I always find it very sad when people find their identities in what they do and not in what they are.


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## Etcetera

Nun-Translator said:


> I guess it depends on what you mean by "work", but I always find it very sad when people find their identities in what they do and not in what they are.


I suspect the main reason for that is that it's easier to find your identity in what you do. And, for most people, it would also be more understandable.


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## rsweet

I differentiate between a _job_ and _work._ For me, a job is something I have to do to pay the bills. Work is something that nourishes me, something I need to do or learn to in order feel fulfilled and keep growing. I'd love to not have a job, but I will always keep working.

Getting back to timpeac's original post, I think it would be horrible to die in harness at a mere job, but wonderful to be working up until the end.


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## Heba

I think that work in itself could be an end, at least for some people that I know.

A friend of mine is unemployed. At first, she thought that have to do with teaching Englsih literature. Now, she is ready to accept jobs she did not think of before, like being a secretary in a business company or a librarian.
She says that she does not want this for money, she simply wants to work!


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## Nunty

I'd like to add here that artists, writers and musicians refer to their creative activity as work, too.


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## ojyram

My sentiments exactly, rsweet.


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## Etcetera

Nun-Translator said:


> I'd like to add here that artists, writers and musicians refer to their creative activity as work, too.


Why not, since they're paid for it.
But anyway, people shouldn't devote _all_ their time to work. 
The TV presenter whom Timpeac has mentioned here might be very happy with his work, but were his wife, his children, his other relatives happy that he devoted all his time to work?


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## Nunty

Nun-Translator said:


> I'd like to add here that artists, writers and musicians refer to their creative activity as work, too.





Etcetera said:


> Why not, since they're paid for it.


So is work something you get paid for? 

I don't agree. When I write a book, that's work. When I clean the kitchen, that's work. When I nurse an ill member of my community, that's work. When I pray and meditate 7 hours a day,that's work. I don't get paid for any of it.

To go back to Hebrew, there are two words for work. I've already talked about _avoda_. The other word is _malacha_, which is usually translated "creative work", but includes things like digging and chopping and cooking -- anything activity that results in a "product" or a visible result.

The Bible verse about work being the curse of Adam on being expelled from Eden doesn't use either _avoda_ or _malacha. _It just says that he will eat "by the sweat of his brow". 

Interesting distinction?

Great discussion!


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## Etcetera

That's really interesting, Nun-Translator! Hebrew is a fascinating language.
Let me ask, then: what's not work, according to your understanding of this word? Reading, surfing the Net, listening to music? I certainly wouldn't call this 'work'. But cleaning the kitchen is definitely work! 
As for writing a book - well, I don't know. I do write something from time to time, but I've never considered that 'work'.


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## Nunty

"Not-work"... that is just as hard to define as "work". For both, I fall back on the famous definition of pornography given by some American judge: "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it."


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## Etcetera

Nun-Translator said:


> "Not-work"... that is just as hard to define as "work". For both, I fall back on the famous definition of pornography given by some American judge: "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it."


 A truly great answer! But that's it, indeed.


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## timpeac

Nun-Translator said:


> So is work something you get paid for?
> 
> I don't agree. When I write a book, that's work. When I clean the kitchen, that's work. When I nurse an ill member of my community, that's work. When I pray and meditate 7 hours a day,that's work. I don't get paid for any of it.


Hi! Are you sure, though, that you are not defining "payment" too narrowly, just as others might be defining "work" too narrowly? If you clean the kitchen aren't you paid by someone else cleaning the bathroom for you? If you nurse someone are you not paid by the feeling of community you gain, and the hope that someone would be happy to do the same for you if necessary? Sorry - I don't mean to suggest that you do these things because you _expect_ these benefits (I'm sure you'd do them even if you knew that there would be no direct benefit to you at all) but it seems to me that when we do something we consider work it either benefits us in some way or someone else in which case that gives us a sense of self-worth. The prayer work is a bit harder for me to describe in this way, and I wouldn't dare suggest the motivation behind it They do say that "your reward will be in heaven", though, don't they?


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## Nunty

timpeac said:


> Hi! Are you sure, though, that you are not defining "payment" too narrowly, just as others might be defining "work" too narrowly? If you clean the kitchen aren't you paid by someone else cleaning the bathroom for you? If you nurse someone are you not paid by the feeling of community you gain, and the hope that someone would be happy to do the same for you if necessary...


Maybe, but then again, maybe we are getting into that fuzzy area of the difference between inner- and other- directed behavior, and questions of motivation and reward.


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## Kelly B

Work, for most people, is a source of pride - not the "I'm better than you" kind of pride forbidden by many religions, but the satisfaction of knowing you've achieved something, even if it's just a clean floor. That's why people define themselves by their work - it's usually the answer to the question "so, what have you done with your life?" Leisure activities absolutely do have value, but they're not fulfilling in the same way.


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## timpeac

Kelly B said:


> Work, for most people, is a source of pride - not the "I'm better than you" kind of pride forbidden by many religions, but the satisfaction of knowing you've achieved something, even if it's just a clean floor. That's why people define themselves by their work - it's usually the answer to the question "so, what have you done with your life?" Leisure activities absolutely do have value, but they're not fulfilling in the same way.


Yes, I know people like that. People for who "I've had to work all weekend" is a phrase to be proud of. When people say that sort of thing to me (regularly, I mean, not as part of a one-off emergency, or perhaps when you first start a job and are learning a lot) I think (but don't say) "Why's that? Are you too incompetent to get it done in the allotted time?".


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## ireney

I'm sorry but I don't get the argument "if you do what you like it's not the same". I love teaching and I love translating. Really. I am one of the relatively lucky ones (relatively because I need to find another job if I want to have a respectable income -as I define it; for others it would be too big for others too small-).

However, believe it or not, there are days, even weeks, during which I don't want to work. If that hasn't happened to you I am really happy for you really but you just can't understand me  There are times when I want to laze around. Or I want to take a trip (to i.e. the USA to see my boyfriend) and I just can't do it because there's work to be done.

As for the words the Hebrew used. OK He didn't use any of the words for work. What did He mean then by "the sweat of your brow"?

The feeling of not being worthy when you don't have a job comes from many and complex reasons.

I never said by the way that one should not contribute to the society. The society would fail if we all lazed about. However we've made work a value in itself not as a contribution to society. That's why many white people first encountering more.. "primitive" societies have considered them lazy. People in these societies would do as much as was needed , maybe working their collective behinds off at times and then doing no work whatsover when there was no need.

It wasn't being lazy. Lazy people are frowned upon in societies where it is vital for everyone to do his/her bit. They didn't consider work a good thing in itself however so they didn't feel the need to work more than necessary.

I hope I made what I mean clear although I'm afraid I haven't.


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## rsweet

For me, this is the fascinating part about work. When is doing nothing a part of the process of work? I remember a passage Thoreau wrote in _Walden._ I can't quote it word for word, but basically he sat outside his little cabin in the woods and watched the progress of a shaft of light cross the porch for an entire day. This image has remained my touchstone for a kind of spaciousness in life that can allow the mind and spirit to accomplish deep creative work. Was Thoreau doing nothing on that day? Did that day, and others like it, lead to incredible productivity and work?

In our culture, most of us like to fill up every minute of the day with work. We feel, myself included, that if we're not accomplishing something, we're wasting time. Then I ask myself, "Isn't constant busyness the ultimate time waster sometimes?" It's a back-and-forth question I wrestle with on a regular basis.


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## Nunty

"Sweat of your brow" means labor, I think. Which is slightly different from "work" in English, if I'm not mistaken.

Daddyo, Your "CHANGE" I love the expression "getting my panties up in a bunch" and your chain-apology is worthy of a nun!


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## don maico

Some people just live for work, always needing to be productive. When they retire invariably their lives just fall apart, their whole raison de etre having disappeared they succumb depressed.For many others work represent many hours of drudgery carried out just so they can meet the bills . They are the exploite ones paid lttle and forced to work overlong hours so that others can enjoy the fruits of their labour.Invariably they dont even meet retirement  age. Still others work is just a means to an end , for the most part they enjoy what they do but are not married to the work ethic because for them leisure is very very important. Whilst they work, they work but they also take plenty of breaks and indulge in chatter for socila apsect is important. When they retire they would spend many hours indulging in interesting activities like hobbies and travel. In other word its all about maintaining a balance between work rest and play and learning to adapt as life moves on.


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## ireney

My dear Nun you are trully confusing me!

There's work during which you may or may not labour and then you labour to earn you living without working? Doing something else than work? ( I mean it, I am trying to understand)


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## Sallyb36

I think that we should consider ourselves lucky to be able to work and to get paid for it.  I think that having a job does bestow some dignity, and a sense of self-worth.  I'd be delighted if I worked until my dying day, as I wouldn't do something that I absolutely hated.
Even if I had enough money not to have to work, i would still have to find something fruitful to do every day.  Could not just laze around all day shopping and doing nothing, it would drive me mad.


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## maxiogee

Sallyb36 said:


> I'd be delighted if I worked until my dying day, as I wouldn't do something that I absolutely hated.
> Even if I had enough money not to have to work, i would still have to find something fruitful to do every day.



The problem is that many people not only have no choice in the work they perform and find it demeaning, degrading and unrewarding, but they find that many people see the work as valueless.


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## Sallyb36

That would be horrible.  I tend to believe that people have more choices than they often see.  I'm sure there must be cases where they literally don't have any choice, and that would be soul destroying.


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## LV4-26

I'm sure there are some people on this planet who, counsciously or not, have some sacred adoration for work and sacred hatred for leisure and laziness. I don't. 

I don't venerate *usefulness.

*On the contrary, the things I like best in life are generally *"useless*". Playing music, having all-night discussions about some philosophical or metaphysical issues, reading, making friends, ....all things that are not economically "productive".

I don't believe the end (the goal) of the human adventure is to produce merchant goods or to accumulate (economical) value.

..........

That said, I have a job and I work.


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## Brioche

Fruitful or fulfiling work is fine. 

If any of you have seen Blackadder, you may recall Baldrick, played by Tony Robinson.

Tony Robinson has done a tv series about various dangerous and disgusting jobs people did in the past.

One job was _fulling_, which involved hours of stamping up and down on newly-woven woolen cloth while standing in a vat of stale human urine.

To quote Oscar Wilde: "_To sweep a slushy crossing for 8 hours on a day when the east wind in blowing is a disgusting occupation. To sweep it with mental, moral, or physical dignity seems to me to be impossible. To sweep it with joy would be appalling. Man is made for something better than disturbing dirt."_


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## don maico

LV4-26 said:


> I'm sure there are some people on this planet who, counsciously or not, have some sacred adoration for work and sacred hatred for leisure and laziness. I don't.
> 
> I don't venerate *usefulness.
> 
> *On the contrary, the things I like best in life are generally *"useless*". Playing music, having all-night discussions about some philosophical or metaphysical issues, reading, making friends, ....all things that are not economically "productive".
> 
> I don't believe the end (the goal) of the human adventure is to produce merchant goods or to accumulate (economical) value.
> 
> ..........
> 
> That said, I have a job and I work.



agreed . The work rest and play ethic is far better than the over rated WORK ethic Nowt wrong with a bit of lazines now and again me thinks!


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## geve

Work is indeed a value in our societies today, work gives you a social status. Some of my friends told me that the hardest part about being unemployed was not the lack of money (which of course is an issue  ), but the fact that they couldn't position themselves in society. Often when you meet a new person one of the first questions that come up is "What do you do for a living?" Because it's a lot easier to tell what we do rather than who we are. _Being_ is not enough, some _doing_ is required.

I don't think work is a goal in itself though (to get back to the phrasing of the original question!) - but then, I don't think I have any goals in life, other than not being too ashamed of myself at the end. 

That TV presenter - he chose to do what he had been doing all his life. I guess he needed to show some determination in the one activity that he was good at (supposedly). What would you do with your last days?


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## maxiogee

geve said:


> Work is indeed a value in our societies today, work gives you a social status.


Indeed. How often have you been asked "Who are you?" compared to how often have you been asked "What do you do?"




> What would you do with your last days?


Do I know in advance that they are _going to be_ my last days?

But that's a thread of a different colour.


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## don maico

geve said:


> Work is indeed a value in our societies today, work gives you a social status. Some of my friends told me that the hardest part about being unemployed was not the lack of money (which of course is an issue  ), but the fact that they couldn't position themselves in society. Often when you meet a new person one of the first questions that come up is "What do you do for a living?" Because it's a lot easier to tell what we do rather than who we are. _Being_ is not enough, some _doing_ is required.
> 
> I don't think work is a goal in itself though (to get back to the phrasing of the original question!) - but then, I don't think I have any goals in life, other than not being too ashamed of myself at the end.
> 
> That TV presenter - he chose to do what he had been doing all his life. I guess he needed to show some determination in the one activity that he was good at (supposedly). What would you do with your last days?



funnily enough I always think of myself as a human being not a human doing.
Sorry but all that status stuff surrounding ones occupation means jack doo doo to me asking some body what they do for a living is just a way of maybe starting a conversation. I am neither impressed or the reverse when I am told what someone does anymore than I would be if they told me their hobbies.


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## geve

maxiogee said:


> Indeed. How often have you been asked "Who are you?" compared to how often have you been asked "What do you do?"


And for a good reason, too: there is no way one could answer that question! I've always been more than skeptical when I hear the line in a movie, during the scene-of-the-first-date: "so, tell me about you..."


maxiogee said:


> Do I know in advance that they are _going to be_ my last days?
> 
> But that's a thread of a different colour.


Well you would have to assume that you know, for the purpose of the debate. I know it's a different topic though, and I don't mean to put a mess in this thread  But the fact is that I have no idea what my answer would be, and I can understand that the TV presenter kept doing what he did before he knew.


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## LV4-26

I don't know about TV presenters. But I've heard actors say that they would like to die on stage.
Of course, that goes to show once again that there is "work" and "work". I've never heard any factory worker say they would like to die while screwing bolts.


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## geve

don maico said:


> funnily enough I always think of myself as a human being not a human doing.
> Sorry but all that status stuff surrounding ones occupation means jack doo doo to me asking some body what they do for a living is just a way of maybe starting a conversation. I am neither impressed or the reverse when I am told what someone does anymore than I would be if they told me their hobbies.


You don't have to be sorry, I didn't say I approved it 
I don't think it's about being impressed; just that what one does for a living is one of the clues that you can easily collect about someone, when you're trying to form a picture of this person. And while I would certainly agree that one can't be summed up to his/her work, it still says something about him/her: whether (s)he gets up early in the morning, is exposed to harsh conditions, if (s)he's in an office environment, a shop, outdoors, what kind of personality traits might have lead him/her there (skills for organization, languages, artistic...)

My point is that you can't know who someone is at the first encounter; getting to know someone takes some time. In the meantime all you can do is make assumptions based on the "tangible" pieces of information that are available to you; and work is one of them.


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## ireney

geve said:


> My point is that you can't know who someone is at the first encounter; getting to know someone takes some time. In the meantime all you can do is make assumptions based on the "tangible" pieces of information that are available to you; and work is one of them.



I was out of work, needed some employment pronto and I ended up working as a part-time phone operator for a couple of months. Making assumptions based on work is wrong, wrong, wrong.


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## geve

ireney said:


> I was out of work, needed some employment pronto and I ended up working as a part-time phone operator for a couple of months. Making assumptions based on work is wrong, wrong, wrong.


Why, do you think I would only make negative assumptions based on that information?  

Again, I am not saying that this way of thinking is good or bad; I'm just saying I think it's the way we naturally do._ George is Stephen's son, he went to school at St Louis, he's good friends with Sally, he works in a bank and plays the piano, he seems to enjoy good food and has a good sense of humour._
Until you get to know George and make a clearer picture of who he _is_, how else can you think about him?

Erm - I might be getting dangerously close to the boundaries of off-topic territory.


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## ireney

Geve I wouldn't think about him at all really. I usually don't make any assumptions before I know someone which makes it really hard to remember names let me tell you! 

The problem is that too often people do make good or bad assumptions based on the work a person does, to the point of their estimation for a person going up (or down) a notch or two when they learn his/her occupation.

Anyway, to add to my first post, it's not only that when you work you have to work even when you don't feel like it (for whatever reason), it also means (in my case, as an example) that I had to proofread one of the silliest books ever to be printed and translate its sequence which was even sillier if possible. Love my job but I hated working on these two.


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## don maico

geve said:


> You don't have to be sorry, I didn't say I approved it
> I don't think it's about being impressed; just that what one does for a living is one of the clues that you can easily collect about someone, when you're trying to form a picture of this person. And while I would certainly agree that one can't be summed up to his/her work, it still says something about him/her: whether (s)he gets up early in the morning, is exposed to harsh conditions, if (s)he's in an office environment, a shop, outdoors, what kind of personality traits might have lead him/her there (skills for organization, languages, artistic...)
> 
> My point is that you can't know who someone is at the first encounter; getting to know someone takes some time. In the meantime all you can do is make assumptions based on the "tangible" pieces of information that are available to you; and work is one of them.



I confess that I was somewhat subjective and not entirely truthful. Of course I am sometimes impressed by some peoples actions and attitudes .Its just that for me someones occupation does not elicit automatic admiration, their general humanity matters to me far more.


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