# Раз when counting



## stunaep

When and why can you use раз instead of один when counting? Are there other numbers that can be different when counting?


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## rushalaim

I think, _"раз"_ isn't any number just like _"пара"_ isn't any number either. I think, common people even don't think counting something. When I count, I say _"один"_, _"два"_ and so on.


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## smmichael

You can use *раз *when you count anything without naming it and, vice versa, when you count something specific (for example people): *один человек, два человека, три человека...* you cannot say *раз человек*. 
It cannot be used separately - you need to say at least *one, two* or more in order to use *раз*.
You cannot use *раз *when counting down, maybe only in very rare occasions.
_
Example of usage: раз, два, три - поехали! (one, two three - go!)_


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## Maroseika

*Раз *can be used in any count. Sometimes it even can be used with nouns (this is  colloquial and not very typical):

Спой-ка с нами, перепёлка-перепёлочка,
Раз иголка, два иголка будет ёлочка,
Раз дощечка, два дощечка будет лесенка,
Раз словечко, два словечко будет песенка.
(Words of the song by M. Matusovskiy).

One more very typical usage is counting of steps or pas in the army or ballet. Один is never used in such cases (probably due to number of syllables):
Раз-два, левой.
И раз-два-три, и раз-два-три.


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## smmichael

Maroseika said:


> Раз can be used in any count.



This is a child's song. I suppose you can hardly hear such collocations in a colloquial speech.

For example, if I need to count needles (you mentioned), I would say *одна иголка, две иголки...* instead of *раз иголка, два иголка...*


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## Maroseika

smmichael said:


> This is a child's song. I suppose you can hardly hear such collocations in a colloquial speech.


Yes, sure it's child's. But I think Раз стул, два стул. А где третий? would not sound too weird in the adult's speech. However I agree this is not very typical, just wnated to show it's possible.


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## rushalaim

*Maroseika*, I'm Russian and like _Hebrew_, but if I'll write Hebrew verses, and force Jewish children to learn my verses, I assume there would be many mistakes in Hebrew children' speech (like Matusovski done).


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## Maroseika

rushalaim said:


> if I'll write Hebrew verses, and force Jewish children to learn my verses, I assume there would be many mistakes in Hebrew children' speech (like Matusovski done).


Why, there are no mistakes in this song, it's normal Russian.


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## Q-cumber

Actually "раз" means 'one time, once".

I like the song and it sounds pretty natural to me, but I afraid this is only because I had been hearing it so many times in my childhood. "Раз иголка, два иголка..." isn't something we would use in normal speech though.


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## BluOFF

Google:
"Раз" - is not numeral. The only case when it can be numeral - counting, usually verbal. _"Раз, два, три...", "Раз, два и готово". _In other cases it means noun ("два раза") or it has different meaning (homonym), or it's adverb or conjunction.



Spoiler: original text



"Раз" - вообще-то не числительное. Единственный случай, когда оно выступает в роли числительного - счет, обычно устный. _"Раз, два, три...", "Раз, два и готово"_

В остальных случаях _раз_ либо существительное ("два раза"), либо это вообще совершенно другое слово (омоним), наречие или союз.


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## Drink

Maroseika said:


> Раз иголка, два иголка



But to clarify, this is an alternation between counting and repeating the word "иголка". Neither "раз иголка", nor "два иголка" is an actual phrase here.


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## Rosett

Drink said:


> But to clarify, this is an alternation between counting and repeating the word "иголка". Neither "раз иголка", nor "два иголка" is an actual phrase here.


The proper syntax is: "Раз - иголка, два - иголка: будет ёлочка."
"Раз" basically means "первый|один счёт" and is, of course, a noun. It can substitute the numeral "один" for the reasons of euphony, when there is need to count rhythmically, not necessarily fast.


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## rushalaim

Rosett said:


> The proper syntax is: "Раз - иголка, два - иголка: будет ёлочка."
> "Раз" basically means "первый|один счёт" and is, of course, a noun. It can substitute the numeral "один" for the reasons of euphony, when there is need to count rhythmically, not necessarily fast.


Sorry, the more I hear that verse the more it sounds ridiculous. A kind of translation from _Yiddish _into _Russian _of (Иуда-Лейзер Мовшев Матусовский).
Матусовский, Лев Моисеевич — Википедия
_



			…"Папа устанавливал нужную диафрагму, снова нырял под сукно и, наконец, произносил, как заклятье: „Спокойно, снимаю!“. Услыхав эти слова, клиент обязан был набрать в легкие воздуха и на некоторое время превратиться в статую. Он не имел права даже моргнуть. А папа отсчитывал вслух экспозицию: „*Раз, два, три. Готово!*"
		
Click to expand...

_


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## Rosett

rushalaim said:


> Sorry, the more I hear that verse the more it sounds ridiculous. A kind of translation from _Yiddish _into _Russian _of (Иуда-Лейзер Мовшев Матусовский).
> Матусовский, Лев Моисеевич — Википедия


Both languages coexisted for the centuries on the Russian land and enriched each other in many aspects.
However, in the given case we do not perceive "раз(, два, ...)" that way. Please compare it with:
"Сели – раз, и встали – два. Три – присели, четыре – полетели!".


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## Sobakus

This word is best analysed as an adverb, and it can combine with nouns with as much ease as other adverbs can:

«Раз ошибка», «дважды ошибка», «вчера ошибка», «тоже ошибка».  I'm not so sure you need a dash in any of those – I personally don't see a compound predicate there to justify one. As demonstrated by the song, it also turns the following numerals into adverbs. I do find it perfectly acceptable for use in everyday counting with or without the noun.


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## Rosett

Sobakus said:


> This word is best analysed as an adverb, and it can combine with nouns with as much ease as other adverbs can:
> 
> «Раз ошибка», «дважды ошибка», «вчера ошибка», «тоже ошибка».  I'm not so sure you need a dash in any of those – I personally don't see a compound predicate there to justify one. As demonstrated by the song, it also turns the following numerals into adverbs. I do find it perfectly acceptable for use in everyday counting with or without the noun.


In your examples, there is no predicates, of course. What's meant in my example, is: "(На счёт) раз - присели, (на счёт) два - полетели".


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## rushalaim

Rosett said:


> Both languages coexisted for the centuries on the Russian land and enriched each other in many aspects.


Yeah... _enriched_. The jail-language in Russia is _Yiddish_. For example, _"шмон"_, _"шмонать"_ is _"eight"_ *שמנה *the time when a jail chamber was inspected.


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## Rosett

rushalaim said:


> Yeah... _enriched_. The jail-language in Russia is _Yiddish_. For example, _"шмон"_, _"шмонать"_ is _"eight"_ *שמנה *the time when a jail chamber was inspected.


Ну да, а колбаса - это "коль басар"? Думаю, что было наоборот.


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## rushalaim

Rosett said:


> Ну да, а колбаса - это "коль басар"? Думаю, что было наоборот.


I thought, that _Yiddish _is the jail-slang is well-known for everybody, but apparently there are those who don't know that yet.
Узланер Михаил. Русская "феня", говорящая на идиш


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## Sobakus

Rosett said:


> In your examples, there is no predicates, of course. What's meant in my example, is: "(На счёт) раз - присели, (на счёт) два - полетели".


Yes, sure; I was thinking more along the lines of your earlier example _«Раз - иголка, два - иголка: будет ёлочка.»_ I don't think it needs the dashes any more than «дважды иголка» or «два раза иголка» do.


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## Q-cumber

Sobakus said:


> Yes, sure; I was thinking more along the lines of your earlier example _«Раз - иголка, два - иголка: будет ёлочка.»_ I don't think it needs the dashes any more than «дважды иголка» or «два раза иголка» do.


The dashes imply some action with the needles. So the usage of the word "раз" does.  In my opinion, "раз" is always related to some (repeating) actions and not to any physical items.

...e.g.

A guy is doing squats with a barbell in a gym and his partner is counting the reps: "Раз! Два! Три! ... Десять  раз! Отлично!"
Or soldiers are marching "Левой! Левой! Раз, два, три!"
When I hear the aforementioned song I imagine that someone is sticking needles one by one into some base to make a (x-mas) three. .  "Раз - ступенька, два - ступенька *будет *лесенка" (future tense, thus the ladder is currently under construction.  and so on. In a word, "раз" usually imply some kind of 'build-up' (so to speak) rather than just counting.


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## bibax

In Czech *ráz* (< *razъ) is a noun and means _удар_, it is used e.g. in mechanics (_гибкий и неупругий удар двух тел_). There are many derivatives:

adverbs: rázem (instr.), naráz (< na ráz) = разом, сразу;
verbs: -raziti, -rážeti with many prefixed forms like odraziti/odrážeti (= отразить/отражать), doraziti/dorážeti (добить), proraziti/prorážeti (пробить), uraziti/urážeti (оскорбить), naraziti, podraziti, vyraziti, sraziti, přeraziti, ...
adjectives: ražený (взрывной), urážlivý (оскорбительный), ...
nouns: výraz (выражение), porážka (поражение), podrážka (подмётка), ...

In some cases we also use *raz* instead of *jeden* in counting (for it is a one-syllable word), e.g. when someone is learning to dance:
raz-dva-tři, áá-dva-tři, raz-dva-tři, áá-dva-tři, ...


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## Q-cumber

"Раз" also means "удар" in Russian, yet this meaning is quite outdated nowadays.  "Дать раз*а*..." to hit strongly

One can say "дать бы тебе раз по носу за такое!", but I'm not sure whether "раз" means "punch" or "once" here.


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## Cheburator

Mind the difference in declension:
1) одна книга, две книги, три книги
2) раз книга, два книга, три книга
I'm not sure how to explain the use of "раз" here grammatically, but surely both ways of counting are possible in everyday speech, and the second option would sound a bit more dinamic, maybe more emotional, and can't be used without the first part (раз книга).
F.e., someone says there are four books one the table, but you come to the table and count aloud:
- Раз книга, два книга, три книга... ну и где же четвертая? ( [I can see] one, two, three books... but where on earth is a fourth? )
Certainly, you could also say in the same context:
- Одна книга, две книги, три книги... ну и где же четвертая?
Or also:
- Одна книга, вторая, третья... ну и где же четвертая?
But the option with "раз" is not just very colloquial, but would also usually sound more emotional, maybe showing that you are not only surprised by the fact that there are only three, but also irritated with that and you demonstrate your irritation. Or you may be mocking at them because they who told about the four books can't count correctly, or something else of the kind.
Another usage: you might have to count quickly, then you would rather use the option with "раз" since it's shorter, and you would say:
- Раз книга, два, три...
Mind also another grammatical option, which would likely be used if you begin counting books, taking each off the table and putting or piling them somewhere to make a show of counting them:
- Книга раз, книга два, книга три. Ну и где же твоя четвертая? Испарилась что ли? (One, two, three books... and where on earth is a fourth you talked about? Vanished into thin air?


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## Awwal12

rushalaim said:


> I thought, that _Yiddish _is the jail-slang is well-known for everybody, but apparently there are those who don't know that yet.
> Узланер Михаил. Русская "феня", говорящая на идиш


There indeed are many Yiddish words in the Russian criminal and jail slang, but I have to note that Jewish authors (most of which aren't even linguists) tend to overestimate their number, drawing ad hoc explanations for words of unclear origin or even for words that have really transparent Russian and other etymologies. Regarding Uzlaner, for instance, citing Yiddish "etymologies" for шалава, стырить or ништяк (!!) is just ridiculous. With the same methods he could surely even "prove" that Russian is just broken Yiddish.


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## Maroseika

_*Moderatorial:*_
_*Dear foreros, let me remind you the theme of this thread: "Раз when counting".*_
_*If you wish to talk about a related subject that is different from the question posed in the first post of the thread, open a new thread, providing it is still in line with the subject matter of our forum.*_


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