# EN: a moment's hesitation



## joEmon

hi
I read this sentence in the Poe's short-story "the gold bug" and I don't really understand the syntax *moment's hesitation*. I know the sense of course : it means without a moment of hesitation, but I would not use this form because what we learned is exactly the opposite form. I explain myself by the following :
1) the car of my brother = *my brother's car*
2) the short-story of Poe = the Poe's short-story (or perhaps Poe' short-story i am not sure)
3) a moment of hesitation would be  *an hesitation's moment*, but I don't like this form too - I would have written "without a moment of hesitation, i did etc ... " 

Moreover I was learned that possessive form is only available for alive objects. 

much Thanks to the (native) english  friends savvy in grammar for explaining me how Edgar Poe is surely right and remains of course one of the best writters.  

(sorry for my bad english)

jo


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## Pix'n

That depends of the whole sentence... "moment's hesitation" can also mean "moment is hesitation". That said, I must admit this phrase is quite odd to me.


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## quinoa

You can find the so-called "génitif", *'s*, in numerous expressions which refer to dates or spells of time :
Yesterday's paper/news/meeting, etc. and the same with today's meeting, next week's, last month's ...
Two weeks' delay     next week's films   /  ten minutes' walk (the walk is ten minutes long.
and a moment's hesitation (the hesitation is one moment long)


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## Pix'n

thanks quinoa for the explanation, I didn't know this meaning!


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## quinoa

And you can also use it with distance :
 It's a *mile's* walk from here to the village;
and with money if using the word _worth_ :
The hurricane did *thousands of pounds'* worth damage


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## joEmon

merci quinoa

Je me doutais bien que Poe usait d'une tournure subtile de sa langue, mais je n'en possédais  pas "le concept". 

Je suis heureux d'avoir appris ces expressions .

encore merci


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## Nicomon

Je suis surprise de lire les exemples de quinoa.

J'aurais plutôt écrit _next week films_ et _a mile / 10 minute walk. _


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## geostan

joEmon said:


> hi
> the short-story of Poe = the Poe's short-story (or perhaps Poe' short-story i am not sure)
> 3) a moment of hesitation would be  *an hesitation's moment*, but I don't like this form too - I would have written "without a moment of hesitation, i did etc ... "
> jo



Think of it as _the hesitation of a moment_. The possessive 's is not limited to persons. Virtually any noun may be used this way.

As for _the Poe's short story_ or _Poe's short story_, only the second version is correct.

A note for Pix'n: we say _to depend on_ (not _of_).

Cheers!


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## quinoa

Mind :
"ten minutes' walk" can be "a ten-minute walk"
"three hours' journey" being "a three-hour journey"


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## geostan

Nicomon said:


> Je suis surprise de lire les exemples de quinoa.
> 
> J'aurais plutôt écrit _next week films_ et _a mile / 10 minute walk. _



On dit: _next week's films_, mais je suis d'accord que _10 minutes' walk_ me semble curieux. Je dirais comme dans l'ajout de Quinoa, _a 10 minute walk_.

Peut-être est-ce différent en Angleterre?


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## HistofEng

geostan said:


> On dit: _next week's films_, mais je suis d'accord que _10 minutes' walk_ me semble curieux. Je dirais comme dans l'ajout de Quinoa, _a 10 minute walk_.
> 
> Peut-être est-ce différent en Angleterre?



Je crois que Quinoa a raison. J'entends cette tournure parfois dans les etats-unis. Ce n'est peut-être pas si naturel pour la majorité des personnes mais ca se dit quand-même. Ca me rappelle fortement des gens du sud des etats-unis ou des paysans.


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## quinoa

It's what is taught at university in France, and what we can find in dictionaries such as Longman and so on...


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## geostan

HistofEng said:


> Je crois que Quinoa a raison. J'entends cette tournure parfois dans les etats-unis. Ce n'est peut-être pas si naturel pour la majorité des personnes mais ca se dit quand-même. Ca me rappelle fortement des gens du sud des etats-unis ou des paysans.



Pour me convaincre, il faudrait un exemple. C'est ma difficulté. Tous les exemples que j'imagine emploient l'article indéfini.


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## quinoa

Examples taken from _English Grammar in Use by Raymond Murphy/ Cambridge University Press :_
_I've got three weeks' holiday._
_I need eight hours' sleep a night;_
_My house is very near here - only about five minutes' walk. _

and _: a three-week holiday   a six-hour journey  a ten-minute walk_

_Pas de déterminant avec le génitif et accord pluriel, mais un tiret sans pluriel avec le déterminant._

_Is it Oxbridge English ?_


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## HistofEng

geostan said:


> Pour me convaincre, il faudrait un exemple. C'est ma difficulté. Tous les exemples que j'imagine emploient l'article indéfini.



Une phrase come celle-ci me semblerait normale:

Person 1: Hey, my car just ran out of gas. Where can I find the nearest gas station?

Person 2: Oh boy, this is the middle of nowhere, the nearest gas station's about a three miles' journey from here.

Check this thread: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=120182


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## geostan

Tous les exemples de Quinoa me semblent corrects, même si le dernier n'est pas commun par ici. (i.e _only about five minutes' walk_)

Quant à celui de HistofEng, je ne le dirais pas. L'emploi de l'article indéfini n'est pas compatible avec la forme en 's.


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## G a

Another common phrase: _I gave him *three days' notice*._


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## G a

@joEmon: Unfortunately our verb _to learn_ doesn't have quite the flexibility of your _apprendre; _the student learns, but is taught; the teacher teaches, never learns. Well... sometimes he learns more than the students do, but you know what I mean...


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## Nicomon

geostan said:


> On dit: _next week's films_, mais je suis d'accord que _10 minutes' walk_ me semble curieux. Je dirais comme dans l'ajout de Quinoa, _a 10 minute walk_.


 J'ai en effet oublié le *a *devant _mile walk / 10-minute walk_ (et je ne savais pas qu'il fallait un tiret) mais c'est ce à quoi je pensais. 
C'est la version qui me semble la plus courante à Montréal. 





> Quant à celui de HistofEng, je ne le dirais pas. L'emploi de l'article indéfini n'est pas compatible avec la forme en 's.


 Je ne le dirais pas non plus. Je trouve aussi bien curieux (surtout) l'exemple _a mile's walk_ que quinoa a donné au post #5.

Par contre, il me semblait que_ next week films_ (sans le possessif) était correct.  Je comprends maintenant que c'est _the films of next week_, comme dans 
l'exemple de Poe : _a moment's hesitation_ = _the hesitation of a moment_. Je ne sais pas pourquoi j'ai pensé que c'était incorrect en fait... car des exemples comme _yesterday's/last month's/today's paper _me sont très familier.


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## radagasty

For me, the two are largely interchangeable, but some situations require the genitive construction whereas others the indefinite article.

The church is a ten-minute walk from here. 
The church is ten minutes' walk from here. 

I gave him a three-day notice. 
I gave him three days' notice. 

I need an eight-hour sleep a night. 
I need eight hours' sleep a night. 

Let's take a ten-minute break. 
Let's take ten minutes' break.


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## geostan

radagasty said:


> For me, the two are largely interchangeable, but some situations require the genitive construction whereas others the indefinite article.
> 
> The church is a ten-minute walk from here.
> The church is ten minutes' walk from here.
> 
> I gave him a three-day notice.  I wouldn't use this. It sounds like there are
> different kinds of notices.
> I gave him three days' notice.
> 
> I need an eight-hour sleep a night.  For me this is not correct.
> I need eight hours' sleep a night.
> 
> Let's take a ten-minute break.
> Let's take ten minutes' break.  I wouldn't say this, but I grant that there are
> those that would.


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## joEmon

G a said:


> @joEmon: Unfortunately our verb _to learn_ doesn't have quite the flexibility of your _apprendre; _the student learns, but is taught; the teacher teaches, never learns. Well... sometimes he learns more than the students do, but you know what I mean...



@ G a 
so :                            1)... what we learned  ...
                                2) I was learned    but     I  was taught  

Is it ok ?


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## geostan

joEmon said:


> @ G a
> so :                            1)... what we learned  ...
> 2) I was learned    but     I  was taught
> 
> Is it ok ?



Yes.


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## quinoa

Here is what I've found.

It appears that when using genitive, there is no determiner, the genitive being the determiner.
But when using an hyphen, time is transformed into an adjective making the determiner necessary.
As for the "a mile's walk', "a" is not the determiner of "mile's walk" but only that of "mile" as if "a" was one.
Having surfed the net for some examples I've found some of the two structures...


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## geostan

quinoa said:


> Here is what I've found.
> 
> It appears that when using genitive, there is no determiner, the genitive being the determiner.
> But when using an hyphen, time is transformed into an adjective making the determiner necessary.
> As for the "a mile's walk', "a" is not the determiner of "mile's walk" but only that of "mile" as if "a" was one.
> Having surfed the net for some examples I've found some of the two structures...



I agree with Nico that _a mile's walk_ is peculiar. I also agree that a = one in this phrase, but I would say "a one-mile walk" not "a mile's walk."


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## Avanine-Commuter

I've always said "I need eight hours of sleep a night", not "I need eight hours' sleep a night".


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## joEmon

quinoa said:


> Here is what I've found.
> 
> *It appears that when using genitive, there is no determiner, the genitive being the determiner.*
> But when using an hyphen, time is transformed into an adjective making the determiner necessary.
> As for the "a mile's walk', "a" is not the determiner of "mile's walk" but only that of "mile" as if "a" was one.
> Having surfed the net for some examples I've found some of the two structures...



Poe had exactly written_ "without  *a*  moment's hesitation_" , do you mean that it could be somewhat incorrect and the correct expression would be "*without moment's hesitation, ...*" ?


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## radagasty

joEmon said:


> Poe had exactly written_ "without *a* moment's hesitation_" , do you mean that it could be somewhat incorrect and the correct expression would be "*without moment's hesitation, ...*" ?


 
Not at all..._  without a moment's hesitation _is the proper form. The article cannot be omitted here.


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