# Fuß or Fuss? (spelling / pronunciation)



## Silvia

Hi all   

I have a doubt... it's about the new spelling rules... is it Fuß or Fuss? Sorry for my silly question, but I'm trying to memorize this somehow 

Thank you!


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## Jana337

Silvia said:
			
		

> Hi all
> 
> I have a doubt... it's about the new spelling rules... is it Fuß or Fuss? Sorry for my silly question, but I'm trying to memorize this somehow
> 
> Thank you!


It is Fuß.  The "u" would have to be shorter in Fuss.

Jana


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## elroy

Silvia said:
			
		

> Hi all
> 
> I have a doubt... it's about the new spelling rules... is it Fuß or Fuss? Sorry for my silly question, but I'm trying to memorize this somehow
> 
> Thank you!


 
It's *Fuß* - whether old or new.


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## MrMagoo

Hi Silvia,

the vowel "u" is a long one, after a long vowel or diphthong, you have to write "ß" - true for both old and new spelling.

"ss" however can be used when you don't have a "ß"-key, and also if you're in Switzerland, where "ß" is not used at all.

All the best
-MrMagoo


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## elroy

MrMagoo said:
			
		

> Hi Silvia,
> 
> the vowel "u" is a long one, after a long vowel or diphthong, you have to write "ß" - true for both old and new spelling.
> 
> "ss" however can be used when you don't have a "ß"-key, and also if you're in Switzerland, where "ß" is not used at all.
> 
> All the best
> -MrMagoo


 
Bearing in mind that unless you're in Switzerland, you would only resort to "ss" if you're *typing* and you don't have a ß.  When you're writing, it has to be a ß (again, unless you're in der Schweiz ).


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## MrMagoo

elroy said:
			
		

> Bearing in mind that unless you're in Switzerland, you would only resort to "ss" if you're *typing* and you don't have a ß. When you're writing, it has to be a ß (again, unless you're in der Schweiz ).


 
Did I say anything different?!


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## Whodunit

elroy said:
			
		

> Bearing in mind that unless you're in Switzerland, you would only resort to "ss" if you're *typing* and you don't have a ß. When you're writing, it has to be a ß (again, unless you're in der Schweiz ).


 
Not necessarily. 

If you write or type all letters upper cased, you have to use the "SS". There's no capital letter of the ß (there's only one other letter in the Latin script system that has that "feature"), so you have to spell it out as "SS":

typing: Straße → STRASSE
handwriting: Straße → _STRASSE_


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## Silvia

Thank you all! Well, how do I know if the vowel is long or short?! Shame on me!!! Sorry, but I'm getting old and I feel as if I'm forgetting everything I learned about the German language!  Also, I've always typed the ß even in case of capital letters, because that letter is as big as a capital letter! Is that not allowed?


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## elroy

MrMagoo said:
			
		

> Did I say anything different?!


 
No.  I just wanted to clarify that "ss" should not be written by hand.


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## elroy

Silvia said:
			
		

> Thank you all! Well, how do I know if the vowel is long or short?! Shame on me!!! Sorry, but I'm getting old and I feel as if I'm forgetting everything I learned about the German language!  Also, I've always typed the ß even in case of capital letters, because that letter is as big as a capital letter! Is that not allowed?


 
How do you know?  You just do.   It has to do with the semantics of the word.

"SS" should be used if you're writing in caps.  I guess ß isn't "not allowed," per se, but it's not common.


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## Whodunit

elroy said:
			
		

> How do you know? You just do.  It has to do with the semantics of the word.
> 
> "SS" should be used if you're writing in caps. I guess ß isn't "not allowed," per se, but it's not common.


 
I'm not sure, but I think it's more formal (depends on the perspective of 'formal') to use the SS writing in all-capital-letters words, such as "FUSSBALL". In my surname I have an ß, and in my ID card it is spelled as ß in capital letters, although most people read it as a B. 

Silvia, when do you know when to stress a syllable in Italian? You just have to know that. I think there's no rule "laut deren" you could recognize a long vowel. Gotta learn it!


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## Silvia

Whodunit said:
			
		

> Silvia, when do you know when to stress a syllable in Italian?


Good point!  
Anyway, your ID example is enough for me, so I'll go on typing ß even with caps


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## MrMagoo

Whodunit said:
			
		

> Not necessarily.
> 
> If you write or type all letters upper cased, you have to use the "SS". There's no capital letter of the ß (there's only one other letter in the Latin script system that has that "feature"), so you have to spell it out as "SS":
> 
> typing: Straße → STRASSE
> handwriting: Straße → _STRASSE_


 

It is not wrong though to zse the letter "ß" among upper cased letters, e.g. "STRAßE" - another possibility is to substitute "SS" by "SZ" which is an old way, but still to be preferred, esp. when there are three "S" standing together otherwise as e.g. in "MASSSTAB" (=> better: "MASZSTAB").


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## elroy

MrMagoo said:
			
		

> It is not wrong though to zse the letter "ß" among upper cased letters, e.g. "STRAßE" - another possibility is to substitute "SS" by "SZ" which is an old way, but still to be preferred, esp. when there are three "S" standing together otherwise as e.g. in "MASSSTAB" (=> better: "MASZSTAB").


 
I personally prefer to retain the ß - I just think it looks better.


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## Whodunit

MrMagoo said:
			
		

> It is not wrong though to zse the letter "ß" among upper cased letters, e.g. "STRAßE" - another possibility is to substitute "SS" by "SZ" which is an old way, but still to be preferred, esp. when there are three "S" standing together otherwise as e.g. in "MASSSTAB" (=> better: "MASZSTAB").


 
Can you imagine I've never seen SZ before except in words like Szene or Polish words?  Really. This may help you to continue with the strange SZ writing style, but I'll keep my SSS way: 



> Die in traditioneller Schreibung mögliche Verwendung von _SZ_ sieht die reformierte Schreibung nicht vor.


 
Clear, isn't it?


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## MrMagoo

Whodunit said:
			
		

> Can you imagine I've never seen SZ before except in words like Szene or Polish words?  Really. This may help you to continue with the strange SZ writing style, but I'll keep my SSS way:


 
The "sz" writing style is not very common, but not wrong either - that's what I wanted to say by that.
You can of course write what you want - traditionally though, "szs" is the better looking choice to avoid "sss".



> Die in traditioneller Schreibung mögliche Verwendung von _SZ_ sieht die reformierte Schreibung nicht vor.
Click to expand...

 
Ja natürlich nicht: _*Viele*_ traditionelle Schreibvarianten sieht die neue Rechtschreibung nicht vor!  Sie sind deswegen allerdings weder falsch noch abzulehnen!


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## Whodunit

MrMagoo said:
			
		

> The "sz" writing style is not very common, but not wrong either - that's what I wanted to say by that.
> You can of course write what you want - traditionally though, "szs" is the better looking choice to avoid "sss".


 
If you don't like the "sss" style, how would you avoid "fff" and "mmm" then? The old spelling refuses such triple-consonansts in one row, that's why one wrote Nußschale and NUSZSCHALE. Am I right?


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## MrMagoo

Whodunit said:
			
		

> If you don't like the "sss" style, how would you avoid "fff" and "mmm" then? The old spelling refuses such triple-consonansts in one row, that's why one wrote Nußschale and NUSZSCHALE. Am I right?


 
The problem here is that unlike "ff", "mm", "nn", etc., "ß" _historically_ is NOT a double consonant (=ss) but consists of two different consonants (=s+z). 

There also occured three consonants in a row in the old spelling (e.g. "Sauerstoffflasche"). 
I guess "szs" instead of "sss" was used because there were more possible words that would have triple-"sss" than any other triple-consonants.


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## Whodunit

MrMagoo said:
			
		

> The problem here is that unlike "ff", "mm", "nn", etc., "ß" _historically_ is NOT a double consonant (=ss) but consists of two different consonants (=s+z).
> 
> There also occured three consonants in a row in the old spelling (e.g. "Sauerstoffflasche").
> I guess "szs" instead of "sss" was used because there were more possible words that would have triple-"sss" than any other triple-consonants.


 
Maybe I have the solution: If a word should begin with ß, we also use sz:

Szene (instead of ßene)
Szenario (ßenario)
Szientismus (ßientismus)
Szintigramm (ßintigramm)

All of them have a "sharp s beginning", so we should need a ß, but since it isn't allowed to begin a word with the ß, one has to use the old form Sz...


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## elroy

Whodunit said:
			
		

> Maybe I have the solution: If a word should begin with ß, we also use sz:
> 
> Szene (instead of ßene)
> Szenario (ßenario)
> Szientismus (ßientismus)
> Szintigramm (ßintigramm)
> 
> All of them have a "sharp s beginning", so we should need a ß, but since it isn't allowed to begin a word with the ß, one has to use the old form Sz...


 
Isn't "Szene" pronounced /Zene/, though?


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## Jana337

elroy said:
			
		

> Isn't "Szene" pronounced /Zene/, though?


Natürlich nicht.

Jana


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## Whodunit

elroy said:
			
		

> Isn't "Szene" pronounced /Zene/, though?


 
No, your transcribed version would be pronounced as the French "géné"  We pronounce it more like /sen@/. For the characters, see here.


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## MrMagoo

Yep, "Szene" can be pronounced as ['se:n@] or [s'tse:ne] (the first "s" in the latter case is voiceless and forms a syllable of its own).


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## apprenantjusquaubout

Hallo!
Is *Fuß *pronounced as "foot" in English??

I'm sorry if that was silly, but I just started learning German...


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## berndf

apprenantjusquaubout said:


> Hallo!
> Is *Fuß *pronounced as "foot" in English??
> 
> I'm sorry if that was silly, but I just started learning German...


The "ß" obviously not, it is an unvoiced /s/ and not a /t/. I guess you mean the vowel. The "u" in "Fuß" is rather like the "oo" in "food", i.e. longer and more closed than in "foot".


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## apprenantjusquaubout

berndf said:


> The "ß" obviously not, it is an unvoiced /s/ and not a /t/. I guess you mean the vowel. The "u" in "Fuß" is rather like the "oo" in "food", i.e. longer and more closed than in "foot".


 
Danke Sehr 

Well, I was wondering if the u was pronounced something like that in foot or fumes (English)... But I realized its neither of the two!

P.S: And yeah, I was doubtful about the *ß* as well, thanks you clarified that


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