# Different words for light and dark colours



## סייבר־שד

Colours have always been one of the first things I look up on a dictionary, (as well as the Moon, the Sun and the stars; I just have something of a Sabian painter in me, I guess ) and I still remember how surprised I was when I first came upon the different terms in Italian and Russian for what to me would generally just be *azul *(= blue), a distinction that has to do mostly with how light or dark that colour is. Well, at least that's how I see it from my particular point of view as a native speaker of a language where such a distinction is certainly possible, but by far not strictly enforced, at least not in my variety. I understand that in such languages they are actually perceived as quite distinct colours, not as mere shades of the same colour.

I also remember reading years ago that Hungarian and...Turkish, I think, also tend to distinguish between a lighter and a darker shade of red, considering them distinct colours, and having very different names for each. 

What are some other languages in which the same thing happens? Does that happen in your mother tongue?
And I'm not only talking about blue and red, of course. For example, I'm very curious to know if there are languages which distinguish between light and dark green, or yellow, or even orange.

Just to be clear, I only mean languages where such distinctions are made all the time, or pretty much.


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## Mori.cze

Actually there is a mandatory distinction between light red (pink) and dark red (red) in all the languages I am vaguely familiar with.

Color naming and its history is a deeply studied subject, you can google all sorts of articles on the topic ranging from popular to scientific.
Based on my understanding (I might be wrong) there is a tendency to name/distinguish colors in the same order no matter the language/culture, starting from light/dark, adding red as first real color, the last to be added being separate words for blues and greens. The articles tend to mention Russian and its light/dark blue, but (to my knowledge) none mention any language having separate word for light/dark green.


Czech naming scheme correspond to the English one quite well, one common blue, one common green, yellow etc.


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## Awwal12

סייבר־שד said:


> a distinction that has to do mostly with how light or dark that colour is.


As Mori.cze mentioned, "pink" is a really close concept (just very light red with a potential continuation into light indigo - much like Rus. golubóy is light blue going into cyan; by the way, Russian doesn't have a common general word for the latter - the basic spectral color between green and dark blue is the same "light blue"). Both colors have some natural standards.


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## apmoy70

We distinguish in Greek between different tints of blue:

Sky blue: *«Γαλανό»* [ɣa.la.ˈno̞] (neut.), which shares its etymology with:
Light blue: *«Γαλάζιο»* [ɣa.ˈlaz̠.ʝo̞] (neut.).
Both «γαλανό» & «γαλάζιο» derive from the ancient name of a precious stone of a greenish blue colour, *«κάλ(λ)αϊς» kắl(l)aïs* (fem.) of unknown etymology:
-The former is the product of the adjective *«καλαϊνόν/καλανόν» kălăïnón* & *kălanón* (neut.) --> _light blue colour_ > ByzGr *«γαλανόν» galanón*.
-The latter is probably the product of the ancient participle *«καλαΐζων» kălăḯzōn* --> _having light blue colour_ < v. *«καλαΐζω» kălăḯzō* --> _to dye (something) light blue_ > later **γαλαΐζω *gălăḯzō* > ByzGr *«γαλάζιον» galázion*.
Blue: *«Μπλε»* [ˈble̞] (neut. indecl.) < Fr. _bleu_. In Katharevousa Greek it was replaced by *«κυανόν»** [ci.a.ˈno̞n] (neut.) which is a hypercorrection, because the ancient «κυανόν» was the:
Dark blue: *«Κυανό»* [ci.a.ˈno̞] (neut.) < ByzGr *«κυανόν» kyanón* (neut.) < Classical neuter *«κύανον» kúănŏn* --> _name of a dark blue substance, enamel, lapis lazuli, blue copper carbonate, blue cornflower_; appears already in the Mycenaean syllabary as ku-wa-no, _smalt_. Etymoloɡically, it's probably an ancient loan from Hittite kuu̯anna(n)- _blue as copper_, from a possible IE root *ḱwn̥Ho-

In the ancient language they also had a name for the _blue-green_ colour (turqoise): *«Γλαυκόν» glaukón* (neut.) --> _blueish-green colour_ (of unknown etymolgy).

***Remnants of the hypercorrection still persist in the modern vernacular language:
-Our flag is called *«κυανόλευκη»* [ci.a.ˈno̞.le̞f.ci] (fem.) --> _dark blue-white_ which is wronɡ, the blue on the Greek flaɡ is liɡhter than the dark blue of the French or the US flaɡ, it's sliɡhtly darker than the sky blue of the Israeli flaɡ.
-We call the UN peacekeepers *«κυανόκρανοι»* [ci.a.ˈno̞.kra.ni] (masc. nom. pl.) --> _dark blue-helmets_ which is wronɡ too, the blue of the UN is sky-blue.


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## Awwal12

apmoy70 said:


> -We call the UN peacekeepers *«κυανόκρανοι»* [ci.a.ˈno̞.kra.ni] (masc. nom. pl.) --> _dark blue-helmets_ which is wronɡ too, the blue of the UN is sky-blue.


Indeed; in Russian they're "light blue helmets/hard hats".


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## סייבר־שד

Mori.cze said:


> Actually there is a mandatory distinction between light red (pink) and dark red (red) in all the languages I am vaguely familiar with.


Ah, now that's an interesting point you've brought up! It's true that pink is technically a sort of "light red", and yet, as you mention, in many (most?) languages we tend to consider them different colours altogether. I know I've never seen it as a "light red" and red as a "dark red", to me they've always been quite distinct, indeed, as distinct as, say, yellow and blue!



Awwal12 said:


> much like Rus. golubóy is light blue going into cyan; by the way, Russian doesn't have a common general word for the latter - the basic spectral color between green and dark blue is the same "light blue").


Awfully glad to have a Russian speaker join the thread, for rather obvious reasons!  As I understand it, a Russian speaker, for example, would generally consider *голубой* and *синий* as distinct as *red* and *pink *seem to a Spanish speaker like myself. Is that correct?



apmoy70 said:


> We distinguish in Greek between different tints of blue


I find it fascinating that modern Greek has all those different terms for different shades of blue! I sadly have never been to Greece, but from what I've seen on videos and pictures, I guess it shouldn't surprise me that you have all those names for a colour like blue, what with Greece's geography. 

That also made me remember hearing once that Japanese, too, apparently has a special term for what one might call "water blue", or something like that.

It's interesting that, thus far, at least, blue seems to be one of the most interesting colours when it comes to naming conventions among different cultures.



apmoy70 said:


> We call the UN peacekeepers *«κυανόκρανοι»* [ci.a.ˈno̞.kra.ni] (masc. nom. pl.) --> _dark blue-helmets_ which is wronɡ too, the blue of the UN is sky-blue.


Whereas in Spanish we just call them *cascos azules*. Paraphrasing the Beatles: all we need is blue...or azul, for that matter.


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## Awwal12

סייבר־שד said:


> As I understand it, a Russian speaker, for example, would generally consider *голубой* and *синий* as distinct as *red* and *pink *seem to a Spanish speaker like myself. Is that correct?


Yes, pretty much that.


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## Włoskipolak 72

Hi !

I hope this will be helpful for you 

Polish 

blady = pale
jasny = bright
ciemny = dark


*granatowy  * 
or ciemnoniebieski   = dark blue , navy

amaranowy  = amaranthine
beżowy = beige 
bordowy = bordeaux
*bursztynowy* = amber
*bury* = dark grey with specks of brown

*cynobrowy* = vermillion

fuksja = magenta
*groszkowy* = pea-green
*grynszpan* = verdigris

karmazynowy = crimson
kasztanowy = horse chestnut

lila = lilac
mahoń = mahogany
*marchewkowy* = carotene
*modry* = deep blue , cornflower blue

*płowy* = fawn 
*rudy* = ginger , red

*siny* = grey-blue , livid
szafirowy = sapphire

turkusowy = turquoise


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## Awwal12

Włoskipolak 72 said:


> I hope this will be helpful for you


It seems that the OP is concerned with basic colours, i.e. those which cannot be more generally described in the normal language. The list of those colors can be markedly different in different languages. Obviously, in any language you can find some definition for any recognizable color (usually referring to some natural standard, e.g. sapphire is the typical color of sapphires). However, sapphire is still a shade of blue. On the other hand, Rus. golubóy isn't a shade of Rus. síniy, neither the latter is a shade of the former, and they have no common more general definition; therefore they're two separate basic colors in Russian.


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## Roxxxannne

English color words for blue:
indigo
blue
ultramarine
aqua/aquamarine

For red:
crimson
scarlet
red
rose
pink

purples:
purple
lavender
mauve
violet


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## Penyafort

סייבר־שד said:


> Paraphrasing the Beatles: all we need is blue...or azul, for that matter.



True. But well, in Spanish you can use *celeste *for light blue and *turquí *for the dark one:

_Los colores del cordón de seda que sujete la medalla serán los siguientes: turquí y morado, para la Escuela general preparatoria; turquí y verde mar, para las de Comercio; rojo, celeste y turquí, para las Normales_​
Turquí shouldn't be confused with *turquesa *or *aturquesado*, for the greenish blue.

We've also got *zarco *(or *garzo*) for the light almost whitish blue, specially for waters and eyes.

_alejarse de aquel hombre cuyos ojos zarcos brillaban como cristales con fuego_​​There is *cerúleo *too, defined as the colour of a clear sky or the open sea.

_Se ponía el sol de abril en un cielo cerúleo y limpio._​
Granted that they are usually reserved for literature, but hey, they exist.

For some reason, Spanish preferred the Arabic *azul *to the Germanic *blao* which, unlike other colours, didn't really survive the Middle Ages.

_Tomaron a Maria Lopes de Liendo una capa de blao apreçiada en çiento e treynta e tres maravedis._​


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## Welsh_Sion

The Welsh chameleon - *glas* /gla:s/.

Meanings: 'blue', 'green', 'grey', 'silver'.


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## סייבר־שד

Włoskipolak 72 said:


> Hi !
> 
> I hope this will be helpful for you
> 
> Polish
> 
> blady = pale
> jasny = bright
> ciemny = dark
> 
> 
> *granatowy  *
> or ciemnoniebieski   = dark blue , navy
> 
> amaranowy  = amaranthine
> beżowy = beige
> bordowy = bordeaux
> *bursztynowy* = amber
> *bury* = dark grey with specks of brown
> 
> *cynobrowy* = vermillion
> 
> fuksja = magenta
> *groszkowy* = pea-green
> *grynszpan* = verdigris
> 
> karmazynowy = crimson
> kasztanowy = horse chestnut
> 
> lila = lilac
> mahoń = mahogany
> *marchewkowy* = carotene
> *modry* = deep blue , cornflower blue
> 
> *płowy* = fawn
> *rudy* = ginger , red
> 
> *siny* = grey-blue , livid
> szafirowy = sapphire
> 
> turkusowy = turquoise


Thank you for the list, @Włoskipolak 72 , however, like Awwal12 pointed out, I am indeed interested in basic colours.
I still appreciate it very much, because I'm taking my first steps in the Polish language.  



Roxxxannne said:


> English color words for blue:
> indigo
> blue
> ultramarine
> aqua/aquamarine
> 
> For red:
> crimson
> scarlet
> red
> rose
> pink
> 
> purples:
> purple
> lavender
> mauve
> violet


Cheers, Roxxxannne! But like I just told Włoskipolak 72, it's basic, general colours that I'm concerned with right now, not the more or less wide array of varying hues that all languages naturally have.
But since you brought not only *red *and *pink *into the equation, but *purple *and *violet*, as well, that gives me the opportunity to say that, for some strange reason, I've never considered the latter as one of those basic colours, with *purple *being good enough for both. 
And yet, when it comes to the colours of a rainbow, for instance, I invariably see *violet *is the favored term, and *indigo *is mentioned, as well, alongside *blue*, whereas to me, both of them would simply be *blue*!



Penyafort said:


> True. But well, in Spanish you can use *celeste *for light blue and *turquí *for the dark one:
> 
> _Los colores del cordón de seda que sujete la medalla serán los siguientes: turquí y morado, para la Escuela general preparatoria; turquí y verde mar, para las de Comercio; rojo, celeste y turquí, para las Normales_​
> Turquí shouldn't be confused with *turquesa *or *aturquesado*, for the greenish blue.
> 
> We've also got *zarco *(or *garzo*) for the light almost whitish blue, specially for waters and eyes.
> 
> _alejarse de aquel hombre cuyos ojos zarcos brillaban como cristales con fuego_​​There is *cerúleo *too, defined as the colour of a clear sky or the open sea.
> 
> _Se ponía el sol de abril en un cielo cerúleo y limpio._​
> Granted that they are usually reserved for literature, but hey, they exist.


I am well aware such hues and shades of different colours exist in Spanish, far be it from me to pretend they don't  , but once more, it's not really such things that I'm interested in for now, but just basic, general colours.
So, for instance, I know all those shades of blue that you mentioned in Spanish, though, admittedly, I'd forgotten about *zarco*, but if asked about the colour of, say, some atoll's coast in the Pacific, the sky on a clear, cloudless day, that of the French flag, a sapphire's and that of  , I would more than likely just say *azul*, unless for some reason I wanted (or had) to be more specific.



Penyafort said:


> For some reason, Spanish preferred the Arabic *azul *to the Germanic *blao* which, unlike other colours, didn't really survive the Middle Ages.
> 
> _Tomaron a Maria Lopes de Liendo una capa de blao apreçiada en çiento e treynta e tres maravedis._


You know, I did wonder if the Germanic colour designation had ever made its way into Spanish's vocabulary! But yeah, *azul *had the last laugh there, as it did in Portuguese and Galician, too.



Welsh_Sion said:


> The Welsh chameleon - *glas* /gla:s/.
> 
> Meanings: 'blue', 'green', 'grey', 'silver'.


Now _that's _quite a chameleon, to be sure, and _I_ am quite a dunce for forgetting about that one, which I'd already come across! 
I knew about the 'blue' and 'green' meanings, thanks to Gareth King's _Modern Welsh Dictionary_, which states its meaning as "blue", but adds the following:

_"*! glas *is also used to refer to the green of vegetation; in this use it is much more restricted, though of common occurrence in place names."_

But I had no idea it could also mean 'grey' and 'silver'.


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## Nanon

The "Welsh chameleon" has cousins: Celtic languages: glas
See also Latin _glaucus_ and Ancient Greek _γλαυκός_. Curiously, the Spanish descendent _glauco_ is just light green according to RAE, while Portuguese _glauco _is light or blueish green and French _glauque_ is whitish or blueish green (not greyish according to dictionary definitions of the colour, although many people associate _glauque _with greyish, dull, even sinister tones).


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## Welsh_Sion

Here's the Welsh reference: 

Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru 'glas'


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## סייבר־שד

Nanon said:


> and French _glauque_ is whitish or blueish green (not greyish according to dictionary definitions of the colour, although many people associate _glauque _with greyish, dull, even sinister tones).


Indeed! Le Robert even gives this second, figurative sense of the word (the translation is mine): _"Giving an impression of sadness, of misery."_



Welsh_Sion said:


> Here's the Welsh reference:
> 
> Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru 'glas'


For some reason the site's not displaying properly on my phone (using regular Firefox), but I have the app installed and was still able to check it.
Thank you very much, that's quite an interesting, rich-in-meanings word you've got there!


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## Penyafort

_Glauc _in Catalan is defined in dictionaries as _verd blanquinós_ "whitish green".

Not a word people really use. Many may have heard it because there was a band called Glaucs and their trademark song was _Els teus ulls glaucs_ 'Your whitish-green eyes'. Many people thought they were saying _Els teus ulls blaus_ 'Your blue eyes', that just shows how unusual the word is.

Other than that, I'd say people, if asked, would rather associate the word with glaucomas.


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## סייבר־שד

Penyafort said:


> _Glauc _in Catalan is defined in dictionaries as _verd blanquinós_ "whitish green".
> 
> Not a word people really use. Many may have heard it because there was a band called Glaucs and their trademark song was _Els teus ulls glaucs_ 'Your whitish-green eyes'. Many people thought they were saying _Els teus ulls blaus_ 'Your blue eyes', that just shows how unusual the word is.
> 
> Other than that, I'd say people, if asked, would rather associate the word with glaucomas.


I also have yet to hear a Spanish speaker employ *glauco*. A pity, if you ask me, since the word is quite beautiful, though it's true that its association with glaucoma could easily make it much less pleasant to most. 

I didn't know it's also a noun that refers to a gastropod! glauc
Time for me to dust off those Greek mythology volumes...


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## clamor

Isn't *lime* used on its own in English, I mean as a separate color from green?


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## סייבר־שד

clamor said:


> Isn't *lime* used on its own in English, I mean as a separate color from green?


Certainly, but it's not really a general, basic colour word, as, say, blue, yellow, orange, or green itself, indeed.


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## Drakonica

Polish:
niebieski - blue
błękitny - light blue (the colour of the sky)
granatowy - dark blue
siny - dark blue (the colour of a black eye)


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## apmoy70

Drakonica said:


> Polish:
> ...
> siny - dark blue (the colour of a black eye)


Which is _black eye_ *«μαύρο μάτι»* [ˈma.vro̞.ˈma.t̠i] to us too 
Cultural differences are always interesting


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## Sobakus

Nanon said:


> The "Welsh chameleon" has cousins: Celtic languages: glas
> See also Latin _glaucus_ and Ancient Greek _γλαυκός_. Curiously, the Spanish descendent _glauco_ is just light green according to RAE, while Portuguese _glauco _is light or blueish green and French _glauque_ is whitish or blueish green (not greyish according to dictionary definitions of the colour, although many people associate _glauque _with greyish, dull, even sinister tones).


That's because none of these are descendants, just straight up borrowings. Likely their meaning wasn't ever known but deduced from dictionaries, which disagreed and translated the word differently into different languages. In Latin, _glaucus_ is the piercing colour of a horse's blue eyes, but also the eyes of felines, and of the mane of a grey horse, and of the stormy sea – which explains the disagreement in translations. Its main characteristic seems to have been the admixture of high-contrast, shining spots that looked striking or sinister.


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## Drakonica

apmoy70 said:


> Which is _black eye_ *«μαύρο μάτι»* [ˈma.vro̞.ˈma.t̠i] to us too
> Cultural differences are always interesting


I mean something like that:
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/...12GobYl_6r2amLSDL-Gs1VZ2hDWnHcGWGIMwI5HwT8A&s


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## Welsh_Sion

Apparently, Geiriadur yr Academi | The Welsh Academy English-Welsh Dictionary Online ...

*Cymraeg/Welsh*

'black eye'  (as in the colour of the iris) - '*llygad* (n.m.) *du*'
'black eye'  (as in bruised) - '*llygad* (n.f.) *ddu*'

I didn't know that before.


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## Awwal12

Drakonica said:


> I mean something like that:
> https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/...12GobYl_6r2amLSDL-Gs1VZ2hDWnHcGWGIMwI5HwT8A&s


Coincidentally, any prototypical, bluish bruise in Russian is синяк (sinyák) as well. Though bruises are typically violet rather than dark blue.


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## סייבר־שד

Drakonica said:


> Polish:
> niebieski - blue
> błękitny - light blue (the colour of the sky)
> granatowy - dark blue
> siny - dark blue (the colour of a black eye)


Would you say that *niebieski  *and at least one of the other three, I'm thinking particularly of *siny*, are used in Polish in the same way *голубой* and *синий *are used in Russian? I mean, are they _both_ considered to be colours as basic and general as *żółty, czerwony *or *zielony*?


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## סייבר־שד

Awwal12 said:


> Though bruises are typically violet rather than dark blue.


And that's how we usually call them here in Mexico  : *ojo morado *= "purple/violet eye". 
I sure cannot remember anyone here saying something like *ojo azul *or *ojo negro*, for instance, to talk about a bruised eye. That would almost certainly be understood to refer to the colour of the irides and only to that.


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## pimlicodude

Awwal12 said:


> Coincidentally, any prototypical, bluish bruise in Russian is синяк (sinyák) as well. Though bruises are typically violet rather than dark blue.


What about orange? There are the words оранжевый and апельсиновый, but it seems to me that these are just translations of the Western concept of "orange". Was "orange" once considered part of the spectrum of shades of yellow жёлтый in Russian?


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## Sobakus

pimlicodude said:


> What about orange? There are the words оранжевый and апельсиновый, but it seems to me that these are just translations of the Western concept of "orange". Was "orange" once considered part of the spectrum of shades of yellow жёлтый in Russia?


*Ры́жий* (the colour of red hair/fox fur), рудо́й/ру́дый (of iron ore), *морко́вный* (carrot), о́гненный (fiery), золото́й (gold). The adjective *рудожёлтый* (рудой from above + жёлтый “yellow”) was apparently in widespread use as a precise designation in relation to textiles, and here the main colour is “yellow”. This was then replaced with помера́нцевый (< померанец, “bitter orange”), and finally with ора́нжевый (pronounced ораньжевый). Besides these there was жарко́й (hot). Here's a nice article.


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## pimlicodude

Sobakus said:


> *Ры́жий* (the colour of red hair/fox fur), рудо́й/ру́дый (of iron ore), *морко́вный* (carrot), о́гненный (fiery), золото́й (gold). The adjective *рудожёлтый* (рудой from above + жёлтый “yellow”) was apparently in widespread use as a precise designation in relation to textiles, and here the main colour is “yellow”. This was then replaced with помера́нцевый (< померанец, “bitter orange”), and finally with ора́нжевый (pronounced ораньжевый). Besides these there was жарко́й (hot). Here's a nice article.


I didn't know оранжевый was pronounced like that - thanks.


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## apmoy70

Sobakus said:


> That's because none of these are descendants, just straight up borrowings. Likely their meaning wasn't ever known but deduced from dictionaries, which disagreed and translated the word differently into different languages. In Latin, _glaucus_ is the piercing colour of a horse's blue eyes, but also the eyes of felines, and of the mane of a grey horse, and of the stormy sea – which explains the disagreement in translations. Its main characteristic seems to have been the admixture of high-contrast, shining spots that looked striking or sinister.
> View attachment 74260View attachment 74261


Τhe Latin word is a Greek loan, the ancient Greeks called goddess Athena *«γλακῶπις» ɡlaukôpĭs* (fem.) --> _ɡleaminɡ-eyed_, an epithet for the goddess as an armed warrior.
It's no accident that Athena's animal was the *«γλαῦξ» ɡlaûks*:


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## Awwal12

Sobakus said:


> *Ры́жий* (the colour of red hair/fox fur), рудо́й/ру́дый (of iron ore), *морко́вный* (carrot), о́гненный (fiery), золото́й (gold). The adjective *рудожёлтый* (рудой from above + жёлтый “yellow”) was apparently in widespread use as a precise designation in relation to textiles, and here the main colour is “yellow”. This was then replaced with помера́нцевый (< померанец, “bitter orange”), and finally with ора́нжевый (pronounced ораньжевый). Besides these there was жарко́й (hot). Here's a nice article.


That being said, it's practically impossible to deduce the pre-modern structure of *basic* colors in Russian. As I said, people will always find a way to describe any given color, but it isn't really informative regarding how they abstractly divide the color field (and the spectrum in particular).


Sobakus said:


> рудо́й/ру́дый (of iron ore)


To be entirely precise, it's the other way around.  From the morphological perspective it seems obvious that *rud-ъ was some sort of basic, unaffixed adjective, while *rud-a was just described as the matter of that pre-defined color. The color meaning of *rudъ goes back right to the PIE; the same cannot be said about *ruda "(iron) ore", which looks like a Balto-Slavic neologism from the dawn of the Iron Age.


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## Sobakus

Awwal12 said:


> That being said, it's practically impossible to deduce the pre-modern structure of *basic* colors in Russian. As I said, people will always find a way to describe any given color, but it isn't really informative regarding how they abstractly divide the color field (and the spectrum in particular).


You'd have to present the arguments for why this is impossible – linguists have reconstructed such things much further back in time. In any case, one doesn't have to establish the entire basic colour structure. It's clear enough that _рыжий_ was one of the basic colours required for describing one of the most iconic shades in humans and animals alike. It still is not a subtype of either yellow or red, but a separate colour.


Awwal12 said:


> To be entirely precise, it's the other way around.  From the morphological perspective it seems obvious that *rud-ъ was some sort of basic, unaffixed adjective, while *rud-a was just described as the matter of that pre-defined color. The color meaning of *rudъ goes back right to the PIE; the same cannot be said about *ruda "(iron) ore", which looks like a Balto-Slavic neologism from the dawn of the Iron Age.


_рудой_ is etymologically identical to En. _red._ The PIE root is *h₁rewdʰ-, reflected in most branches. But the fact _*raudā_ “iron ore” is BSl.-only doesn't mean there wasn't already a definite connection between that root/adjective and iron ore. That this connection must have existed from the earliest times is evident in the root's many descendants that have to do with *rust and oxidation, *such as En. _rust,_ La. _rōbīgō_ and Ru. _ржа́вчина._

Moreover, the exact range of the colours this root expresses is precisely “red tending towards brown (or yellow)”. That's why ginger people are called _red_ in English, _rūfus_ in Latin, and _ры́жий_ in Russian, while _кра́сный/а́лый_ could never have such reference – they refer to the colour of blood-red lips.

Even a cursory familiarity with colour terms across different languages suffices to realise that the default source of them are names of objects in the environment that have that particular colour. Thus it's entirely possible that _*h₁rewdʰ- _has its origins in something that referred to either iron, or specifically rust.


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## pimlicodude

Of course the original Russian word for "red" was червонный (literally the colour of a dye made from worms), красный meaning, originally, "beautiful".


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## Awwal12

Sobakus said:


> You'd have to present the arguments for why this is impossible


Chiefly due to the typical lack of written documents.  As far as Early Modern Russian is concerned, we have quite a lot of documents describing colors (especially the colors of fabric), but precious few discussing colors in general. That makes it really difficult to figure out which colors weren't ultimately percieved as shades of some other colors (the parameter which interests us the most).


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## Awwal12

Sobakus said:


> in the root's many descendants that have to do with *rust and oxidation*


That's rather vague; precise morphological structures (potentially pointing at precise semantic derivations and their chronology) are crucial here. For instance, ржавый "rusted" < *rъdjavъ cannot be directly derived from *rudъ on the P.-Sl. level, even though it's related to it morphologically on the late PIE/P.-B.-Sl. level. So far I don't really see anything to support that P.-Sl. *rudъ had any apparent underlying semantics beyond simply some red(dish) color.


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## Sobakus

pimlicodude said:


> Of course the original Russian word for "red" was червонный (literally the colour of a dye made from worms), красный meaning, originally, "beautiful".


This one's very confusing for modern speakers who are normally familiar with the word through the fixed phrase _черво́нное зо́лото,_ which is red(dish) gold. But a spontaneous description of the colour of the reddest gold would feature words from the _рудо́й/рдяно́й/ры́жий_-range, because it's brownish. So the original reference of _черво́нный_ is difficult to get a grasp of. There's a help in another word from the same root, _червлёный,_ which looks like an etymological doublet only with /j > lʲ/ inserted after the stem. This one refers to dark red, almost identical to _багря́ный._ The semantic range of En. “red” is very rich and finely grained in East Slavic.


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## Sobakus

Awwal12 said:


> That's rather vague; precise morphological structures (potentially pointing at precise semantic derivations and their chronology) are crucial here. For instance, ржавый "rusted" < *rъdjavъ cannot be directly derived from *rudъ on the P.-Sl. level, even though it's related to it morphologically on the late PIE/P.-B.-Sl. level. So far I don't really see anything to support that P.-Sl. *rudъ had any apparent underlying semantics beyond simply some red(dish) color.


_*rud_ and _*rъd_ are different ablaut grades of the same root; the derivation is direct. The rust-related derivatives of _*h₁rewdʰ-_ exist well outside of BSl., which is evidence for this semantics existing in the proto-language.


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## Awwal12

Sobakus said:


> _*rud_ and _*rъd_ are different ablaut grades of the same root; the derivation is direct.


But those ablaut grades ceased to be productive at least by the times of late Proto-Slavic and began to get obscured.


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## Sobakus

Awwal12 said:


> But those ablaut grades ceased to be productive at least by the times of late Proto-Slavic and began to get obscured.


Neither late Proto-Slavic, nor Proto-Slavic, nor Proto-Balto-Slavic have a fixed date. There is no date for when ablaut grades ceased to be productive. Ablaut grades still exist in modern Russian. What you're saying is at best equivalent to saying that _рост_ cannot be directly derived from _расти,_ or _несла́_ from _нёс._

In the absence of any objective facts your replies constitute a simple game of semantics and an argument about definitions, for what constitutes direct derivation, what vowel alternations can be called productive when, and whose guesstimated dates look prettier. This is not the place to play this type of games, and I personally am not interested in playing them at all.


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## Awwal12

Sobakus said:


> There is no date for when ablaut grades ceased to be productive. Ablaut grades still exist in modern Russian. What you're saying is at best equivalent to saying that _рост_ cannot be directly derived from _расти,_ or _несла́_ from _нёс._


The point is that the existence of inherited ablaut grades has no capability to *prove* an active semantic connection. An average Russian speaker, for instance, has no associations connecting пора "time (of sth)" and переть "to move" at all.


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## Sobakus

Awwal12 said:


> The point is that the existence of inherited ablaut grades has no capability to *prove* an active semantic connection. An average Russian speaker, for instance, has no associations connecting пора "time (of sth)" and переть "to move" at all.


No, the point is that the etymon of _ржавый_ can be directly derived from the same root of _рудой_ by suffixation on some stage that's later than Indo-European, via ablaut, and that your objection is a game of semantics and an argument about definitions. You have presented no facts that contradict anything I've said.

Nor have I tried using inherited ablaut grades to prove an active semantic connection. The semantic connection is blatantly clear from the meaning of the root, the suffix(es) and the resulting adjective. As importantly, it's visible from parallel derivations of words for “rust” from the same root in several other languages. And, in case I still haven't managed to get this across to you: your claim that the ablaut gradation was non-productive but inherited at the time _руда_ was formed lacks any evidence.

Come to think of it, if you managed to demonstrate that the formation of _ржавый_ must be earlier than Proto-Balto-Slavic, this would mean the formation is of PIE date. This in turn will mean precisely my main point: that the semantics of the root *h₁rewdʰ- included reference to iron and rust.

I only have to repeat that your comments here have been unhelpful and entirely based on manipulating timelines and definitions in a vain and unsuccessful attempt to win some brownie points for being more correct than me in irrelevant details. You were already aware that your original comment was nitpicking, and you should have dropped this a long time ago.


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## apmoy70

The Byzantines distinguished a little bit differently the shades of blue:

*«Κυανόν» kyanón* (neut.) was the _dark-blue_ colour,
*«Βένετον» βéneton* (neut.) was the _blue_ colour, named after Venetia, the land of _Venetī_, from where the Byzantines imported the blue dye for dyeing their clothing, 
*«Γαλαζοβένετον» ɡalazoβéneton* (neut.) --> _light-blue_ (see my  post for the etymology of «γαλάζιον»)
*«Ὑάκινθον» yákinthon* οr *«ὑακίνθου χροιά» yakínthou khrοiá** (neut.) --> _hyacinth-blue_ or _hyacinth's tint_ a purplish blue.
Not sure if «γλαυκόν» was still used.

***Byz. Gr. *«χροιά» khrοiá* (fem.) --> _tint_ < Classical feminine noun *«χροιά» kʰroiá* --> _appearance to the eye, colour of a thinɡ, complexion_ < Classical neuter noun *«χρῶμα» kʰrômă* --> _colour, piɡment_. From the Byzantine word, derives the MoGr *«χροιά»* [xri.ˈa] (fem.) with the same meaninɡ.

Note that the names of colours in Greek are neuter because as adjectives, they modify the neuter noun «χρῶμα» (*«χρώμα»* [ˈxro̞.ma] (neut.) in MoGr too).


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## apmoy70

Different words in Ancient Greek for light and dark colours:

Light brown: *«Λευκόφαιον» leukóphaion* (neut.), lit. _white-brown_, a compound = *«λευκόν» leukón* + «φαιόν» (see below).
Brown: (1) *«Ὑποφαιόν» hŭpŏpʰaión* (neut.), lit. _sub-brown_ = prefix & preposition *«ὑπό» hŭpó* + «φαιόν» (see below).
(2) *«Ὄρφνινον» órpʰnĭnŏn* and *«ὀρφνόν» ŏrpʰnón* (neut.), a mixture of ɡrey with brown (of unclear etymoloɡy; a PIE root *h₁rɡʷ-sno- _murky, dark_ has been proposed with Proto-Germanic *erpa- _dark-coloured, blackish_ as coɡnate).
Dark brown: *«Φαιόν»* pʰaión[/b] (neut.), of unclear etymoloɡy (aɡain, a PIE root has been proposed, *ɡʷʰaiso-/*ɡʷʰəiso- _blackish_ with coɡnate the Lith. gāisas, _ɡlow_).

For red, the ancients used different names:

*«Ῥοδόεν» rʰŏdóĕn* (neut.) --> _red of rose, pinkish_ < Classical neuter noun *«ῥόδον» rʰódŏn* --> _rose (flower)_.
*«Φοινίκιον» pʰoiníkĭŏn* (neut.) --> _Tyrian red, liɡhtish red_, the colour of the *«φοινικίς» pʰoinĭkís* (fem.) the naval ensiɡn, the Phoenicians flew on their ships 


*«Ἐρυθρόν» ĕrŭtʰrón* (neut.) --> _red_.
*«Kόκκινον» kókkinŏn* (neut.) --> _scarlet_ < Classical masc. noun *«κόκκος» kókkŏs* --> _berry/grain of the kermes oak_, or _the eggs of the scale insects in the family Coccoidea, that live on the tree and resemble fine grains of wheat, used for the dyeing of textiles scarlet red in antiquity_ (of unknown etymology).
*«Πορφύρεον» pŏrpʰúrĕŏn* (neut.) --> _purple_ < Classical feminine noun *«πορφύρᾱ» pŏrpʰúrā* --> _purple dye_, also, _the name of a small sea snail from which the ancients extracted the very expensive purple colour_ (hence the colour of royalty), of unknown etymology (possibly a Mediterranean Wanderwort).

For Green:

*«Χλωρόν» kʰlōrón* --> _briɡht ɡreen, yellowish ɡreen_ < Classical fem. noun *«χλόη» kʰlóē* --> _first ɡreen shoots, verdure_ (PIE *ɡ́ʰelh₃- _ɡreen, yellow_ cf. Skt. हरिण (hariṇa), _ɡreenish_, Av. zairi- _yellow_, Lat. helus, Lith. želti, _to sprinɡ out_).
*«Πράσινον» prắsĭnŏn* --> _ɡreen_, lit. _leek-like_ < Classical neut. noun *«πράσον» prắsŏn* --> _leek_.


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## Drakonica

סייבר־שד said:


> Would you say that *niebieski  *and at least one of the other three, I'm thinking particularly of *siny*, are used in Polish in the same way *голубой* and *синий *are used in Russian? I mean, are they _both_ considered to be colours as basic and general as *żółty, czerwony *or *zielony*?


I don't know Russian well and I rarely use it. But I think that's right:
błękitny = голубой
niebieski= Синий

---

In my opinion "niebieski" is a color-container for all kinds of blue (including "błękitny" too) and a name of basic blue: #0000FF

And "błękitny" is a different colour, not a primary color but it is as real as pink or brown one.


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## סייבר־שד

apmoy70 said:


> *«Ὑάκινθον» yákinthon* οr *«ὑακίνθου χροιά» yakínthou khrοiá** (neut.) --> _hyacinth-blue_ or _hyacinth's tint_ a purplish blue.


Sort of like *indigo*, right?

Definitely appreciate your inclusion of all those colour terms in ancient and Byzantine Greek! After seeing all those ways to call blue in Greek I'm now curious to know how much of a latecomer (?) *μπλε* is.


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## apmoy70

סייבר־שד said:


> Sort of like *indigo*, right?
> 
> Definitely appreciate your inclusion of all those colour terms in ancient and Byzantine Greek! After seeing all those ways to call blue in Greek I'm now curious to know how much of a latecomer (?) *μπλε* is.


Definitely no younger than 150-180 yo (probably around 1840)


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