# I thought that she would have done it vs. I thought that she would do it



## drcab

How does one distinguish  these English phrases in Italian, if one must always follow a main verb in the past tense with a past conditional?

I thought that she would have done it  ( action precedes thought)

AND

I thought that she would do it  ( action follows thought).


Thank you for any clarification  in either language.


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## Gianfry

1. Pensavo che l'avesse fatto.
2. Pensavo che l'avrebbe fatto.

In questi casi il condizionale si usa per esprimere un'idea di futuro, come nel caso (corretto) di "pensavo che avrebbe dimenticato= I thought she would forget".
Quanto a "pensavo che piovesse = I thought it would rain", invece, non è proprio così.
Io direi piuttosto:
Pensavo che piovesse = I thought it was raining (action precedes thought)
I thought it would rain = Pensavo che avrebbe piovuto (action follows thought)


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## Paulfromitaly

Gianfry said:


> 1. Pensavo che l'avesse fatto. *I thought she had done it.*
> 2. Pensavo che l'avrebbe fatto.



Ma anche no.


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## Gianfry

Paulfromitaly said:


> Ma anche no.



Capisco l'obiezione, l'avevo pensato anch'io.
Vediamo allora la differenza fra "I thought that she would have done it" e "I thought that she had done it". Nel primo caso mi sembra che si sottintenda un momento temporale preciso, ovvero, esplicitando "I thought that she would have done it (by that time)". In italiano credo si possa rendere con "Pensavo che l'avesse (già) fatto", ma naturalmente posso sbagliarmi.
In effetti, si può anche tradurre con "Pensavo che l'avrebbe fatto (per quella data)", diverso dal "Pensavo che l'avrebbe fatto" della seconda frase, dalla quale possiamo dedurre che invece l'azione, contrariamente alle previsioni, non è stata compiuta.
Spero di non essere stato troppo confuso 
Spero che i nativi ci soccorrano...


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## Paulfromitaly

Io direi

1. Pensavo che avrebbe potuto averlo fatto.
2. Pensavo che l'avrebbe fatto.


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## Allanon

drcab said:


> How does one distinguish  these English phrases in Italian, if one must always follow a main verb in the past tense with a past conditional?
> 
> I thought that she would have done it ( action precedes thought)
> 
> AND
> 
> I thought that she would do it   ( action follows thought).
> 
> 
> Thank you for any clarification  in either language.



Io pensai che (lei) l'avrebbe fatto (E' tutto finito )  

  Io pensavo che lo facesse             ( Il pensare è finito; il fare no, ma cmq non è stato fatto)

Ma entrambi indicano che l'azione  è successiva alla supposizione.

Il problema è che  "I though that she would have done it"  non indica AFFATTO che l'azione precede la supposizione

La frase corretta sarebbe . (I thought that she had done it  )

Quindi in conlcusione le due frasi corrette a parer mio sono queste : 

*I thought that she had done it             Pensavo che l'avesse fatto                    ( action precedes thought)*

*I thought that she would do it              Io pensavo che (lei) lo facesse          ( action follows thought)*


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## entrapta

Avrebbe potuto averlo fatto non mi sembra proprio accettabile.... Peraltro non ho afferrato bene il she would have done it, perché appunto non she had done it... Forse se il cervellino si mette al lavoro ci arrivo. Ma forse "pensavo che potesse averlo fatto" tipo she might have done it?


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## Gianfry

entrapta said:


> Peraltro non ho afferrato bene il she would have done it, perché appunto non she had done it...



Bisogna chiederlo a Drcab


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## drcab

Perhaps a longer English sentence might help.

I thought she would have done it  by last Friday   and I was annoyed to find she had not done so.  

I thought she would do it before today, and I am annoyed to find she has not done so.  

Once, when I was at school, the  correct English  usage was "would have done"  for the "future in the past" in the *second* case, as my grammar book seems to say for  Italian, but that has almost died out  now.

"Had done it" was also grammatically more correct in the *first* case, but again common parlance has changed.


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## Paulfromitaly

drcab said:


> "Had done it" was also grammatically more correct in the *first* case, but again common parlance has changed.




Right 
If your first example should read "I thought that *she had done it*" rather than "would have done it", then there's no possible misunderstanding.
First example is a subjunctive, the second is a conditional.

1. Pensavo che l'avesse fatto.
2. Pensavo che l'avrebbe fatto.


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## Gianfry

Paulfromitaly said:


> Right
> If your first example should read "I thought that *she had done it*" rather than "would have done it", then there's no possible misunderstanding.
> First example is a subjunctive, the second is a conditional.
> 
> 1. Pensavo che l'avesse fatto.
> 2. Pensavo che l'avrebbe fatto.


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## drcab

Thank you , that clears it up  .
The English have more or less lost the art of using the subjunctive and tend increasingly to misuse the conditional too.    I was not helped by my grammar book *always* wanting  the subjunctive after pensare che, then finding loads of conditional examples on here.   Maybe I need a new book post GCSE!


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## drcab

One final thing .. looking at a sentence I wrote for homework, I put

"dubitavo che gli studenti finissero il corso di fisica" meaning " I doubted my students would finish the physics course".  (In grammatically correct English  this used to be "would have finished")

It was marked correct but if I have now understood PaulfromItaly  correctly,  should it not  be written "dubitavo che gli studenti avrebbero finito..."?


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## Paulfromitaly

drcab said:


> One final thing .. looking at a sentence I wrote for homework, I put
> 
> "dubitavo che gli studenti finissero il corso di fisica" meaning " I doubted my students would finish the physics course".  (In grammatically correct English  this used to be "would have finished")
> 
> It was marked correct but if I have now understood PaulfromItaly  correctly,  should it not  be written "dubitavo che gli studenti avrebbero finito..."?


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## drcab

Grazie a Lei Paul, tutto e' assolutamente chiaro adesso.


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## Einstein

drcab said:


> "dubitavo che gli studenti finissero il corso di fisica" meaning " I doubted my students would finish the physics course". (In grammatically correct English this used to be "would have finished")


Are you sure about this? Italian uses the past (3rd) conditional for the future in the past, but French and Spanish don't and neither did Manzoni, so the use of the second conditional in this case doesn't seem to be an English aberration. I see it this way:
_"She will do it"_
Indirect form:_ I thought she would do it._
_"She will have done it by now"._
Indirect form:_ I thought she would have done it by then._
I'd use the third conditional only to report a future perfect.

For the Italian I'd use the past conditional in both cases, distinguishing the situations with appropriate adverbs:
Pensavo che l'avrebbe fatto il giorno dopo.
Pensavo che a quell'ora l'avrebbe fatto (e invece non aveva neanche cominciato...).


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## Giorgio Spizzi

Hallo, drcab.
I'm surpised: are you sure that _(In grammatically correct English this used to be "would have finished")_?
Isn't the pattern "would have verbed" used when there's some condition to be satisfied (eg "He would have finished the job if we'd asked him more politely") ?
All the best.
GS


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## Giorgio Spizzi

I'm 100% with Einstein.
GS


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## drcab

Giorgio Spizzi said:


> Hallo, drcab.
> I'm surpised: are you sure that _(In grammatically correct English this used to be "would have finished")_?
> Isn't the pattern "would have verbed" used when there's some condition to be satisfied (eg "He would have finished the job if we'd asked him more politely") ?
> All the best.
> GS




True, but we sloppy English often leave our clause with "If" implied rather than stated.


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## drcab

Einstein said:


> For the Italian I'd use the past conditional in both cases, distinguishing the situations with appropriate adverbs:
> Pensavo che l'avrebbe fatto il giorno dopo.
> Pensavo che a quell'ora l'avrebbe fatto (e invece non aveva neanche cominciato...).


 
I am now getting less sure by the minute!   (I have been studying Italian for only two years.)

What Einstein says agrees with my grammar book at the page on indirect speech, but disagrees with an earlier page of the same book on what to do after pensare che (and other che clauses for expressing opinions.) It says  always use subjunctives.  This also means more of that homework may possibly have been wrong  but marked as  correct.

Example 2 "Pensavo che l'aereo fosse arrivato in punto, ma  mi sono sbagliata: e' stato in ritardo.


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## drcab

I have just looked in  my new grammar book  ..Italian verb drills by Paola Nanni -Tate, and she agrees with PaulfromItaly's final decision so disagrees with Einstein.

To sum up, my teacher and Paul agree with that book but Einstein and Sgr Spizzi do not, for the case  of "action precedes thought"  i.e l'avesse fatto.  For the case of "action postdates thought",  you are all in agreement with the new book on 'l'avrebbe fatto', so my teacher could well have been wrong in using the imperfect subjunctive there .

As a beginner I shall just let all you very kind people fight it out!


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## Paulfromitaly

drcab said:


> I have just looked in  my new grammar book  ..Italian verb drills by Paola Nanni -Tate, and she agrees with PaulfromItaly's final decision so disagrees with Einstein.



Would you please elaborate on this? 
I too agree with Eisntein's post and I don't think my suggestions and his clash.


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## drcab

I may be wrong but I thought post 10 and post 16 disagreed.


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## Einstein

In post 16 I didn't say that the subjunctive is never used after "pensare"; I simply dealt with two kinds of future in the past, where the subjunctive is not used.
There's a (subtle) difference between "I thought she had done it" (pensavo che l'avesse fatto) and "I thought she would have done it by then" (pensavo che a quell'ora l'avrebbe già fatto). The second case includes an element of future in the past, because it means that _I expected to find _that she had done it.

EDIT: However, it may be more natural in Italian to use the subjunctive also in the second case. I'd like to hear some opinions on this.
My main objection in post 16 was to the idea that, for the future in the past, the third conditional should be used also in English.


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## Paulfromitaly

Einstein said:


> In post 16 I didn't say that the subjunctive is never used after "pensare"; I simply dealt with two kinds of future in the past, where the subjunctive is not used.
> There's a (subtle) difference between "I thought she had done it" (pensavo che l'avesse fatto) and "I thought she would have done it by then" (pensavo che a quell'ora l'avrebbe già fatto). The second case includes an element of future in the past, because it means that _I expected to find _that she had done it.
> 
> EDIT: However, it may be more natural in Italian to use the subjunctive also in the second case. I'd like to hear some opinions on this.
> My main objection in post 16 was to the idea that, for the future in the past, the third conditional should be used also in English.


I totally agree with you.
Both your examples are correct, but have slightly different meanings.
It may be true that we are likely to use the subjunctive also in your second example, but that's because there's pensare as a main verb, and after "pensare che" we "like" the subjunctive more.
Let's say that if Ms drcab doesn't find it too wrong to use "would have done" rather than "had done", she may as well translate it as "che l'avesse fatto", thus making a similar "mistake".


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## drcab

Now I see the difference, thank you.   Decades of teaching teenagers does not do wonders for one's English grammar!


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## Murphy

And what about:
_I thought she was going to do it (so I wouldn't have to.) ?_

I suppose you could get round it by saying something like:
_Pensavo che lei avesse deciso di farlo._
_Pensavo che lei si fosse offerta...._

But could you also use the past conditional in this case?


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## Einstein

Murphy said:


> And what about:
> _I thought she was going to do it (so I wouldn't have to.) ?_
> 
> I suppose you could get round it by saying something like:
> _Pensavo che lei avesse deciso di farlo._
> _Pensavo che lei si fosse offerta...._
> 
> But could you also use the past conditional in this case?


Yes, I'd say so: Pensavo che l'avrebbe fatto lei.
Seems to fit.


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## Gianfry

Come suggerisce Einstein, le ipotesi di Murphy sono buone, ma visto che l'accento viene posto su "she", in italiano si rende mettendo "lei" alla fine della frase.
Quindi:
_Pensavo che avesse deciso di farlo lei._
_Pensavo che si fosse offerta lei (di farlo)._

Analogamente, alla domanda:
"Chi è stato?" si risponde "Sono stato io", non "Io sono stato", a meno di non accentuare l'"io" iniziale: "_Io _sono stato" (e comunque è una soluzione rarissima).


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## Murphy

Thanks for the confirmation, Einstein and Gianfry.


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