# MSA/All dialects: stress patterns



## licinio

I cannot explain myself why, according to what comes under the heading Stress in this Wikepedia article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language
مجلة is stressed ma/*já*l/la. 
The above rules would indicate in this case an unlikely antepenultimate syllable stress.

Please also confirm that these stresses are correct:
Sa:/*hí*/ba/tu/hu
Mush/ki/*lá*/tu/hum

according to MSA (not Egyptian stressing rules).
Thanks.


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## WadiH

The stress pattern given for _majalla_ is correct.

_Sa:/*hí*/ba/tu/hu_ should be _Sa:/hí/*ba*/tu/hu_

_Mush/ki/*lá*/tu/hum_ is correct

P.S. I would advise you to be cautious when reading about the Arabic language (especially dialects) on Wikipedia, as there are numerous errors and it's often difficult to correct them


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## licinio

Thanks Wadi,
and I'm sorry, I meant to write the stress as you indicated for صاحبته. As that article says, the stress can fall on one of the last three syllables. 
As for مجلة I cannot understand under which rule it falls. In fact they say that "the last 'Superheavy' syllable (containing a long vowel or followed by two consonants for example) is stressed", but also that "doubled consonants count as two consonants".


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## clevermizo

I don't know about wikipedia, but the reason why مجلّة is pronounced [ma.jál.la] and not [má.jal.la] or something else is exactly because the [l] is doubled. This is sometimes called a 'stress attractor' in linguistics. It doesn't matter how you 'count' the L as [ll] or [strong l]. If you count it as one strong consonant, then the stress moves to the vowel right before it. If you count it as two consonants, then you syllabify the word this way:

ma    jal    la

in which case, the stress attractor is now the closed syllable [jal].

Anyway you syllabify it, ma. ja. lla or ma. jal. la, the stress is attracted to the position immediately before the stress attractor (here being the tashdiid).

The "stress attraction hierarchy" if you will is this:

CV < CVV, CVC < CVCC < CVVCC
-----------------(increasing stress attraction)--->

This is not just true of Arabic, but also of most languages with stress and complicated syllable structure (like Latin). The actually term used for this attraction is "syllable weight". We say the structures towards the right (in my little graph) have "more weight".

If you use the "three syllable principle" as I'll call it in Arabic, then you mark off units of three syllables starting from the end of the word:

Saa   7i   |   ba   ti  hi

Then you add stress positions:

Saa(weak stress) 7i    |    bá (main stress) ti hi


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## licinio

Clevermizo,
there are of course several ways to explain stress usage, and yours sounds simple enough. But shouldn't you add that the stress in Arabic has to fall on one of the last three syllables? Otherwise the principle of attraction would make such a word as صاحبته be pronounced with a stress on the first syllable.


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## clevermizo

My entire analysis was given that exact fact, as I assumed that was a given of this discussion. That's what I meant by the "three syllable principle" that stress is on one of the last three syllables.

That said, as the vowel in صا is long, I would argue there is some weak or secondary stress on this syllable, although the main stress is on بَ.

Is the "last three syllables" universally accepted, however? Or are there different traditions of reading? Does everyone say "fi ma.dii.*na*.ti.hi" or do some read "fi ma.*dii*.na.ti.hi", maintaining the original stress of "ma.*dii*.na".


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## Mahaodeh

[Moderator's Note: Merged with a previous thread]
Inspired by this, I was wondering if Arabic has any stresses, except shadda of course. One of the posts implied that all languages have stresses but the native speakers may not notice that becuase they are so used to it.

I was wondering if such a thing existed in Arabic since I've never felt that there are any stresses but then maybe I just didn't notice. I also don't recall being taught about stresses in Arabic classes in school although we were taught about the stresses in English.


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## WadiH

Listen to someone from Egypt speaking in Fus7a and you'll notice the stresses 3ala 6ool.


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## clevermizo

Stress doesn't seem all too phonemic in Arabic, but it's there. For example, compare the pronunciations of مدرسة in Egyptian and Syrian dialect, and you'll hear a stress shift from the second to the first syllable.

Actually, come to think of it, there is phonemic stress in some dialects - especially at the morpheme boundaries:

Levantine:
تركتي
تركتيه

These are pronounced _ta*ra*kti and tarakt*ii* _respectively. The major difference between the two is stress on the second moving to the last syllable (with some compensatory lengthening). This changes the meaning from "she left" to "she left it". The vowel lengthening is automatic because in Levantine dialects you can't have stress on a final syllable which has no coda unless the vowel is lengthened.

In fuS7a I don't think stress is phonemic, but it is always calculable based upon the length and strength of consonants and vowels lie in a word.

As to its "importance" based on that other thread - I think putting stress on the wrong (or non-native) syllables can lead to misunderstanding. Stress is a metric in languages that possess it; it sets the rhythm of the sentence. Part of the reason why it is difficult for Middle Easterners to understand Moroccans or Algerians is not because the latter use so fewer Arabic words, but that there are large differences in where stress is placed on words, what sorts of vowels are long and short, what sorts of vowels are deleted, etc. The entire rhythm of the language changes. 

Our ears have acquired a sense for the rhythm of our native language, and when we here something with a different rhythm we have to think about what was said with more effort. When foreigners, like myself, learn Arabic, they can learn that stress in Arabic words is usually predictable, and then learn the rules on how to place them - and we do learn those things, in fact.


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## Mahaodeh

OK, it became cristal clear when you mentioned the مدرسة example. It also made me notice what gives the Egyptians their "accent" when speaking fus7a.

I'm not so sure I agree with the rest though, the example of تركتِ and تركتيه are different, you have more letters in the second case - even if you write the kasra as a ya' you will still have an additional ha' in the second word - it becomes like: _sam_ and _same_ - the additional e is the point here.

I must admit that I kept repeating the تركت and made those around me repeat it but I still can't hear a stress, not on the middle nor anywhere else - it sounded as if the stressing was equal. I must also admit that this example confused me very much. Stress, as I understand it is like the school example except that it changes the meaning of the word and both exist in the same dialect - maybe my understanding is a little limited?


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## djara

Mahaodeh said:


> I must admit that I kept repeating the تركت and made those around me repeat it but I still can't hear a stress, not on the middle nor anywhere else - it sounded as if the stressing was equal.


I don't think repeating a single word (or having it repeated) can give you an idea of the stress, especially when you are pronouncing each syllable separately. However, when you include it in a sentence and your read it with native speaker intonation I think stress will most certainly appear for words with more than one syllable. In the case of تركت it is clear in my mind that the stress cannot be on the first syllable (?taraktu), nor could it be on the last (?taraktu this would be for plural). By contrast, taraktu comes very naturally.


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## clevermizo

Note, the number of letters orthographically in a word is not really a measure of phonological reality. In Levantine Arabic there is no  [h] pronounced at the end of تركتيه, unlike other dialects perhaps. It's possible that it's a bad example, but I clearly hear a change in stress between:  _tar*a*kti (you left) tarakt*ii *(you left *it*), _as well as _t*a*raku _(they left) and _tarak*uu* (they left him/it_).

The bold letters indicate stress. Again, the example may not be the best, but at least my example of مدرسة was illustrative. It also may be that as a native speaker one mostly hears the length in the vowel, and as a non-native speaker I'm hearing mostly a change in stress. Phonologically there is both a longer vowel and a change in stress between these pairs of words.


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## Xence

I was just wondering if long vowels  حروف المد  aren't the Arabic equivalent of stress in other languages.
Any comment?


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## clevermizo

No - stress is especially evident in Arabic in words that have no such long vowels. Take for example, the word مدرسة, with all short vowels. I have been taught to pronounce this (in fus7a)  ma*dra*satun, with stress on the second syllable or as *ma*drase in Syrian Arabic, with stress on the first syllable. Either way, stress phenomena are apparent.

Stress and length are different phonological phenomena. [...] (threads merged)


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## Xence

Thanks clevermizo for the link.
I realise that I didn't express my idea as I would do. In fact, I meant that stress is put on letters preceding long vowels, as well as on both letters with _shadda_ or _sukuun_.


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## Hajjar

There is one topic is completely missing in Arabic linguistic treatises, that of stress. In Classical Arabic, stress is not phonemic: there are no tow words that are distinguished solely by a difference in stress. It is, therefore, understandable that the Arabic grammarians did not feel the need to discuss stress as a feature of Arabic.


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## dkarjala

clevermizo said:


> No - stress is especially evident in Arabic in words that have no such long vowels. Take for example, the word مدرسة, with all short vowels. I have been taught to pronounce this (in fus7a)  ma*dra*satun, with stress on the second syllable or as *ma*drase in Syrian Arabic...



Actually, in _fus7a_ the accent keeps traveling back in the case of no 'heavy' syllables (long vowel or short vowel + consonant cluster) and the correct pronunciation is *mad*_rasatun_ (note also that the _d_ is in the first syllable). The rule learned is probably related to the Egyptian urban stress on the penultimate, which in turn may be the result of not wanted stress to travel past the antepenult and then keeping that stress when pausal forms were generalized.

This is important because it shows that in some stage of Classical Arabic, stress was not different from a long prosodic unit, i.e., a long vowel or a consonant cluster created a 'heavy' syllable that was eventually pronounced as stress. 

An interesting (or maybe not that interesting) side note is that in Akkadian, many words interchanged between having long vowels or having a doubled consonant among but also within dialects (at least in writing).


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## elroy

dkarjala said:


> [...] the correct pronunciation is *mad*_rasatun_


 What is this claim based on?   I've never heard this pronunciation and it sounds entirely *in*correct to me.


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## clevermizo

My original textbook in Arabic claims that there are two traditions for this pronunciation. One moves the stress all the way to the beginning ['mad.ra.sa.tun] the other does not allow it to move further than three from the end [mad.'ra.sa.tun].

I think both exist though I don't know in what regions the first one is used, and it probably has to do with Qur'anic reading traditions that I know little about.


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## elroy

Well, I'll be!  As I said, I have *never* heard "*mad*rasatun" (or anything similar), and it really sounds very wrong.  I would not advise any learners of Arabic to use that pronunciation.  (While it may be correct for the purposes of Qur'anic recitation - I don't know much about that either - it sounds incorrect in every other modern context, at least to me.)


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## clevermizo

It's actually a little awkward which if it is used, it makes sense why [mad'*ra*satun] won out as the "standard" pronunciation. Actually sitting here and trying to put stress on the first syllable, it sounds mostly like I'm stressing all syllables equally.


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## elroy

The only situation I can imagine myself ever saying "*mad*rasatun" in is if someone mispronounced the first syllable and I wanted to clarify it for them.

Example:

Clevermizo (pointing to a word written somewhere): What's that word?  "Fadrasatun"?
Elroy: No, "*mad*rasatun."

(Of course, Clevermizo would never make such a mistake. )


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## clevermizo

Hah! Well when I was first learning, I had a problem with recognizing handwriting and sometimes forgetting dots, so I have been known to confuse handwritten مــــ and فـــــ . It's not inconceivable.


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## dkarjala

elroy said:


> What is this claim based on?   I've never heard this pronunciation and it sounds entirely *in*correct to me.



I'm sorry, I should have said _Classical_ Arabic and not فصحى which of course includes MSA. This rule is based on the ancient grammarians and the Classical tradition. It is true that in MSA, the antepenult is the farthest back the stress can travel.



			
				clevermizo said:
			
		

> It's actually a little awkward which if it is used, it makes sense why [mad'*ra*satun] won out as the "standard" pronunciation. Actually sitting here and trying to put stress on the first syllable, it sounds mostly like I'm stressing all syllables equally



Right...this is exactly what I'm getting at. The classical rules and poetic meters, etc., seem to indicate that there was no stress at all, but that a stress was 'felt' at long vowels or consonant clusters. So it sounds equal if there are none or if it falls at the beginning (since the absence of other stresses makes the beginning of the utterance sounds stressed by virtue of its 'eruption')

By the way, learners of Finnish and French are often found putting stress on the first syllable, when in fact there is no real stress at all, let alone phonemic. It's a cool little phenomenon.


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## kemocon

[off-topic comment removed]

Back to our subject matter, Arabic does make use of stress, but unlike English, stress doesn't affect the value of vowels, at least not in careful pronunciation. So while our stress might not sound as dramatic as that of English speakers, there still is a syllable which is a little louder than the syllables around it. If you take a look at the waveform of some Arabic word recorded by a native, it is clear which syllable is accented.

Also, as far as I am aware, different traditions of reciting the Holy Qur'an do not differ regarding stress, although Maghrebis might shift stress to the last syllable before certain letters because of influence from the French language (?), not because of the tradition itself.

Finally, it's mad.*ra*.sah in Standard and Egyptian Arabic, but *mad*.ra.s(e)h in Syrian Arabic.


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## Serafín33

[off-topic comment removed]


dkarjala said:


> This rule is based on the ancient grammarians  and the Classical tradition. It is true that in MSA, the antepenult is  the farthest back the stress can travel.


Such as what grammarian,  if I may ask? I would like to know more about the differences between  pronunciation traditions.


			
				dkarjala said:
			
		

> By the way, learners of Finnish and French are often  found putting stress on the first syllable, when in fact there is no  real stress at all, let alone phonemic. It's a cool little phenomenon.


But  if Finnish people stress the first syllable or the French, the last  one, consistenly then there is stress but just not phonemic at all.
[off-topic comment removed]


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## Mahaodeh

kemocon said:


> Finally, it's mad.*ra*.sah in Standard and Egyptian Arabic, but *mad*.ra.s(e)h in Syrian Arabic.



With all due respect, but says who? If I hear someone on TV speaking MSA and pronouncing it mad.*ra*.sah, I would quickly say "the speaker is Egyptian". If I hear it *mad*.ra.seh, I would not guess where the speaker is from.

Are you sure your native dialect is not affecting the way you perceive MSA?


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## lukebeadgcf

I agree with Maha, mad.*ra*.sah is Egyptian not MSA. *mad*.ra.sah is MSA and Syrian happens to have a similar stress. To be more specific it is MSA _pause form_. If we put case markings on the word, the stress shifts to the second syllable:

مدرسةٌ


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## Mahaodeh

I don't know, I feel the stress is very very light - nothing like the stress you feel when you say the English object (v.) where the stress is clearly on the je part and is closer to object (n.) where there is a very very light stress on the b. Here, I feel the stress is not actually on the full mad but only on the d part, none whatsoever on the r whether you use case markings or not (except in EA of course).


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## lukebeadgcf

As a non-native learner, I've always found stress to be a salient and easily detectable feature. In fact, when words aren't stressed the way I expect them to be, I have trouble understanding. English stress is harder for me to detect than Arabic stress.


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## Serafín33

lukebeadgcf said:


> I agree with Maha, mad.*ra*.sah is Egyptian not MSA.


Hmmm, it seems Egyptians when reading MSA say mad.*ra*.sa too though.


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## lukebeadgcf

Your right. That's why its easy to tell them apart, even if they use j instead of g for جيم.


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## licinio

[Moderator's Note: Merged with a previous thread]
سؤالي يتعلق بمكان النبرة في الكلمة العربية وتحوله عند إضافة ضمير متصل.

أعطيكم مثالا: في العربية الفصحى (ليس في بعض اللهجات مثل المصرية) كلمة مدرسة تلفظ بالنبرة على المقطع الأول، فكيف يتغير النطق عندما أضيف شيئا، مثلا مدرسته؟
شكرًا
أندريه​


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## AndyRoo

The stress shifts: 
*mad*rasa مدرسة
mad*ras*atii مدرستي
madra*sat*uhu مدرسته


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## clevermizo

أنا شخصيا ألفظ مــدرسة ومدرسـتــُهُ ومدرستي مثلا (الحرف الأحمر يشير إلى النبرة


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## Víctor Pérez

[Moderator's Note: Merged with a previous thread]
Hi everybody,

I would like to know if -as I think- in all the Arabic words the stress falls on the last syllable.


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## fof

No, that's not true at all. It varies quite a lot depending on the word and its pattern.


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## Víctor Pérez

Thanks a lot for your answer, *fof*.


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## WadiH

In MSA, the stress usually falls on the antepenultimate syllable (i.e. the one before the one before last).  In verbs, however, it often falls on the penultimate.  It varies by country, but the rule I just mentioned is what's used, for example, when reading the Quran.


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## Víctor Pérez

Thanks for the precision, *Wadi*.

I asked that question because I wanted to know which syllable is stressed in names as, for instance, Hussein.


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## Serafín33

Wadi Hanifa said:


> In MSA, the stress usually falls on the  antepenultimate syllable (i.e. the one before the one before last).  In  verbs, however, it often falls on the penultimate.  It varies by  country, but the rule I just mentioned is what's used, for example, when  reading the Quran.


That's most interesting! So you read كتب 'he  wrote' as kat*á*ba? Or perhaps you're referring to reading verbs without those final vowels getting them closer to many vernaculars? (I.e. k*á*tab, but then, يكتبان would be "yakt*ú*baan"?)


Víctor Pérez said:


> Thanks for the precision, *Wadi*.
> 
> I asked that question because I wanted to know which syllable is stressed in names as, for instance, Hussein.


As said above, the rules used depend to a good extent on one's vernacular/dialect, and the local tradition when reading written Arabic. It is also important to realize that there's many vowel and vowel-consonant endings that are only pronounced in very formal contexts, and are otherwise often dropped.

In many dialects and written Arabic reading traditions stress depends on  "syllable-weight", basically the structure of syllables, where  syllables with diphthongs, long vowels, or a syllable-final consonant  (or consonants) may attract stress—the exact rules vary.

The word you ask about, حسين 'li'l good, the li'l good one', may be Hussaynun/Hussaynan/Hussaynin, or, if dropping the endings, just Hussayn. Since it contains a diphthong, ay, it's very widespread to pronounce the stress on the right-most syllable with one, so many Arabic speakers are going to pronounce it Huss*áy*nun/Huss*áy*nan/Huss*áy*nin or Huss*áy*n.

Many speakers pronounce the written Arabic diphthong "ay" as a long "e" sound (IPA: [e:]), so it's as likely they would say Huss*ée*n. In fact, I'm sure the commonly-used spelling "Hussein" derives from this pronunciation, where the "ss" represents a voiceless sibilant (IPA: [s]), and the "ei" represents [e:] as commonly done in Latin-alphabet chat spellings.

tl;dr version: in "Hussein", many would pronounce it on the "ei" part.


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## WadiH

Neqitan said:


> That's most interesting! So you read كتب 'he wrote' as kat*á*ba? Or perhaps you're referring to reading verbs without those final vowels getting them closer to many vernaculars? (I.e. k*á*tab, but then, يكتبان would be "yakt*ú*baan"?)



Yeah I wasn't really thinking of the final vowels when I mentioned verbs (perhaps my brain is programmed to treat them as separate from the word itself).  Of course, it is k*a*taba, not kat*a*ba.  I guess, the "ante-penult" rule is a good rule of thumb, even for verbs, if you take the final markers into account.  Example: *ma*drasah, ma*dra*satun.  In yaktub*aa*n, the stress falls on the long vowel.  It just goes to show that it's difficult to come up with one or two rules to account for all situations.

In a word like "Husayn", the stress follows the dipthong.


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## lukebeadgcf

There is no "rule of thumb" for stress in الفصحى, but the rules are simple:

There are three syllable lengths: light, heavy, and super-heavy (and we can also encounter super-super-heavy in pause)

Last syllable is accented if it is super-heavy:

بهرجان (pronounced in pause without case endings)

Penultimate if that syllable is at least heavy and the last syllable is not super-heavy

هيولى

Antepenultimate if the penultimate is light and the last syllable is not super-heavy

شعوذة (pronounced in pause without case endings)


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## Serafín33

...But there's still some important variation to note. A typical Cairene would read شعوذة as "shaʕw*á*za" (just like the مدرسة madr*á*sa example above in posts #30 and #31), and somebody from Baghdad would read كتبها "k*á*tabaha", with stress on the pre-antepenultimate syllable. (Also, I believe it's conceivable that some people would read هيولى "hayuul*áa*"?)


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## lukebeadgcf

Neqitan said:


> ...But there's still some important variation to note. A typical Cairene would read شعوذة as "shaʕw*á*za" (just like the مدرسة madr*á*sa example above in posts #30 and #31)



Yes. In Egypt, the formal stress rules I listed apply with the following exception:

When a word ends with CCVCV (like مدرسة) or CCVCVC (like تكوّنتْ) [sometimes even extending to VVCVCV (like جامعة)], stress moves from the ante-penultimate to the penultimate.



> somebody from Baghdad would read كتبها "k*á*tabaha", with stress on the pre-antepenultimate syllable.



I am not familiar with this. I am skeptical until someone can clarify further.



> (Also, I believe it's conceivable that some people would read هيولى "hayuul*áa*"?)



This I highly doubt. I am aware that some stress the last syllable when a dual possessive suffix is attached to the end of a word like صداقتهما, but this is, as far as I'm concerned and as far as prescriptivist convention dictates, a mistake. But with هيولى or other words like فصحى or كبرى or دنيا etc., I don't think anyone would ever stress the last syllable.


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## Serafín33

lukebeadgcf said:


> Yes. In Egypt, the formal stress rules I listed apply with the following exception:
> 
> When a word ends with CCVCV (like مدرسة) or CCVCVC (like تكوّنتْ) [sometimes even extending to VVCVCV (like جامعة)], stress moves from the ante-penultimate to the penultimate.


According to Janet C. E. Watson's _The Phonology and Morphology of Arabic_ (2002), the last syllable is also stressed if it's a CVV heavy one (so doesn't need to be super-heavy):


> Cairene stress algorithm
> (a) Stress a final superheavy or CVV syllable:
> [...]
> ra'mū 'they threw it m.'


and it always extends to words ending in VVCVCV (like جامعة).


> somebody from Baghdad would read كتبها "k*á*tabaha", with stress on the pre-antepenultimate syllable.
> 
> 
> 
> I am not familiar with this. I am skeptical until someone can clarify further.
Click to expand...

I remember reading about it in an academic source, also claiming that "some" Syrians and Lebanese would pronounce it كتبها katabah*áa*, but I can't find the reference for my life...

Nonetheless, on the variation of stress placement, Karin Ryding quotes McCarthy and Prince's  (1990) saying: "there is inconsistency in the stressing of standard Arabic words between different areas of the Arab world, and no direct testimony on this subject exists from the Classical period".


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## lukebeadgcf

Neqitan said:


> According to Janet C. E. Watson's _The Phonology and Morphology of Arabic_ (2002), the last syllable is also stressed if it's a CVV heavy one (so doesn't need to be super-heavy):



Do you say فصحى?



> and it always extends to words ending in VVCVCV (like جامعة).



If you listen to some Egyptian narrators for shows, they will say مدرسة and تكونتْ, but جامعة. There seems to some kind of prioritization of which colloquial stress patterns to forgo when speaking in higher registers.



> Nonetheless, on the variation of stress placement, Karin Ryding quotes  McCarthy and Prince's  (1990) saying: "there is inconsistency in the  stressing of standard Arabic words between different areas of the Arab  world, and no direct testimony on this subject exists from the Classical  period".



I very much agree. The reality is quite complex. The most we can do is listen. Perhaps the best testimony to classical stress conventions can be heard in the various styles of Quranic recitation which are alive and kicking.


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## Serafín33

lukebeadgcf said:


> Do you say فصحى?


I don't, I actually follow the rules you posted in page 2 all the time, but I suppose it's conceivable that there's people who would say foSH*áa*.


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## Víctor Pérez

Shukran, Neqitan.


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## lukebeadgcf

Neqitan said:


> I don't, I actually follow the rules you posted in page 2 all the time, but I suppose it's conceivable that there's people who would say foSH*áa*.



On what basis is this conceivable? I doubt that this is the case, but am sincerely interested in broadening my understanding of this phenomenon if it were.


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## إسكندراني

I don't think it's ever conceivable.


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## 6aalib

[Moderator's Note: Merged with a previous thread]
I think this is a correct summary for where to put the stress on a noun:     

stress the last long syllable
OR 
stress the 3rd last short syllable, if there is no long syllable after that   

I want to know how is taa-marbuta counted ?   

If it is pronounced as a     ه   it is technically a consonant with a skoon, this becomes a long syllable, so I think it is technically correct to stress that syllable.  

mattress = ْمَرْتَبَة   = martabah 

broom = مِكْنَسَةْ  = miknasah 

Also, what if it was pronounced as a  ةٌ  ?  Again, I think nothing changes because the double damma actually stands for " ون  ", so again it correct to stress that syllable.     


Shukran   

(  I know these are minor points about pronounciation but I like to ask anyway.  To me, martabah and martabah sound very different, so I want to atleast TRY and develop a proper pronounciation.  )


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## إسكندراني

In the Levant they stress the first syllable of these words, in the Nile Valley we stress the middle one. It seems strange to stress the last syllable here.


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## vinyljunkie619

in Algerian, it's on the syllable before the last. Mek*na*sa unless the vowel is long. Y*goul*, 
In Egyptian it's similar, 
In 1 syllable words - First and only syllable
In 2 syllable words - First syllable
In 3 syllable words - 2nd syllable EX _*9a*_7ba (friend, 2 syllables) -> 9a7*bi*ti (My friend, 3 syllables)
In 4 or more syllable words - Penultimate (2nd from last syllable) Mutar_*ji*_ma (female translator)
Regardless of syllables, the accent or stress is always on the long vowel regardless of where it is in the word. EX 2iy*aam*, ust*aaz*, mafa*tii7*, ki*taab*.
EX. _*saa*_3a.... sa3_*aat*_


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## 6aalib

Shukran for the responses, it is good to know that there are variations.  I am going to try to read more pages/sources and then post back here


إسكندراني said:


> In the Levant they stress the first syllable  of these words, in the Nile Valley we stress the middle one. It seems  strange to stress the last syllable here.



If it seems strage to you it is probably wrong, maybe I should say give equal stress to martabah.


vinyljunkie619 said:


> [...]In Egyptian it's similar,
> In 1 syllable words - First and only syllable[...]


Just to clarify are those guidelines for Egyptian or MSA (or both) ?


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## إسكندراني

6aalib said:


> If it seems strage to you it is probably wrong, maybe I should say give equal stress to martabah.


It still sounds odd. Is this something you do or something you've noticed others do?

As for what is correct, I think the 'proper' thing is to stress evenly like in French for example, but modern standard has no set rules so only those who are really good pay attention to that.


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## 6aalib

I read many explanations about rules of stress and this is how I can best understand it: 

There are 5 different types of syllables: 
CVVC 
CVCC 
CVC
and open syllables:  CVV and CV

Rules for stress in order:
1. stress last syllable only if CVVC or CVCC  (not CVC)
2. stress 2nd last syllable if CVVC or CVCC or CVC
3. stress 3rd last syllable if not one other two cases, because stress should be one of last 3 syllables

EXAMPLES:

*1 syllable*  n/a

*2 syllable*  عِنَبْ   vs   إبْرِيق 

3inab because last syllable is CVC so NOT stressed

ibreeq  because last syllable is CVVC so it is stressed

*3 syllable*  مِكْنَسَة  vs    بُرْتُقالْ

miknasah because last syllable is CVC so NOT stressed

burtuqaal because last syllable is CVVC so it is stressed

Also you can see a simple rule is to just stress where you see long vowel.  But the only problem is that does not explain words where more than one long vowel or word without long vowel, and also if a long vowel on end of a word (ie. CVV open syllable), it should not be stressed.   (eg.   yamshee  يَمْشِي   )

Also, words with taa-marbuta: 
I do not know the technical explanation for this, but if pronouncing the double damma I think you just have to ignore that it is actually a ون, because I do not find anyone stresses the last syllable like it is a CVVC syllable.  Also if you count the "tun" as a short syllable, technically the stress would change to the new 3rd last syllable.  Eg. miknasatun
But I do not really find that my teacher or any other audio recordings really do that so I will just keep the stress like:  miknasatun  or  miknasatun

[Edit:]Now I have a question about 4 syllable words that are *PAST TENSE BASIC VERB + PRONOUN
*
I think eveyone will agree to stress the first syllable of past tense of basic verbs
eg. fa3ala, kataba, shariba

*I want to ask :  do you notice that your accent/stress changes to after you attach the pronoun ه "hu" ?*

Eg. where do you notice your stress for fa3alahu, katabahu, sharibahu  ?     (he did it, he wrote it, he drank it)

Technically, now it is a 4 syllable word, and stress should not be past the 3rd last syllable. 
eg. fa3alahu

But I want to know more about this point before I try to develop this habit.  Right now as a beginner my stress is all over the place on Verbs
(mostly becuase I need time to think about what form/pronoun to use)  eg. fa3ala(thinking)hu


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## vinyljunkie619

the ta Marbuta does not signify -ah, it signifies -a.
This makes it an open syllable.
Mik*na*sa
Mad*ra*sa
Mak*ta*ba

Keep in mind, however that MSA is not a living spoken language, so when people do speak it, they tend to use their own accents and stress patters native to their dialect.


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## إسكندراني

Many people say miknasa. And ta marbutah signifies ah not a.
Im any case, stress and syllable are hard to even translate into Arabic, they are understudied by the general public.


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## 6aalib

OK but I am still very curious....where do personally find that your stress is when you say "fa3ala" vs. "fa3alahu"?  

Do you find that you naturally change your stress when you attach the pronoun (ie. make a 4-syllable word) ?


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## إسكندراني

fa3alahu and fa3alahu and fa3alahu and equal stress are equally valid for me, I'll subconsciously choose whichever one fits into the flow of my sentence if I'm speaking standard Arabic. For fa3ala my options are only equal stress or first syllable.


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## iwani

Nice discussion! Perhaps it would be better explained with some audio samples as well, that's pronunciation is all about hehe

I too had some questions about accents and syllables but I decided to shrug them off because it was hard to grasp


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## إسكندراني

We should be able to discuss any issues to do with 'syllable stress' using websites like soundcloud.


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## 6aalib

إسكندراني said:


> fa3alahu and fa3alahu and fa3alahu and equal stress are equally valid for me, I'll subconsciously choose whichever one fits into the flow of my sentence if I'm speaking standard Arabic. For fa3ala my options are only equal stress or first syllable.



OK Shukran Jazilan  .... actually this is good news for me because like I said before my stress/accent is all over the place on verbs !


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## Evan Aad

[Moderator's Note: Merged with a previous thread]
Word stress in MSA follows a precise set of rules, which are described consistently across various Arabic grammar textbooks, e.g. Ryding's "A Reference Grammar of Modern Standard Arabic" (2005). However, none of the textbooks I have consulted describes what happens to the stress when the word starts with an elided hamza ("hamzat al-waSl").

Consider the following examples:

1. اقرا _iq-ra'_ ("Read!" [2nd person, male])

According to the rules, the first syllable should get the stress, however the presence of an elided hamza indicates that the "i" sound is auxiliary, so logically the stress should fall on the second syllable. Is this the case?

2. واقرا هذه الكليمات _waq-ra'_ haa-dhi-hi l-ka-li-maa-ti ("... And read these words!" [2nd person, male])

Unlike the first example, here the hamza actually gets elided. Where does the stress fall? If it falls on the first syllable, it means that the conjunction "and" gets the stress, but it seems unnatural that a particle would get the stress. So does the stress fall on the second syllable?

3. اب وابن _a-bun wa-bnun_ ("A father and a son.")

In this case both the first syllable and the second syllable (of both words) are auxiliary, so where do the stresses fall?

4. اخذت ابنا وذهبت a-khadh-tu _bnan_ wa-dha-hab-tu ("I grabbed a son and walked away.")

In this case the first syllable is elided, and the second syllable is auxiliary, so that the actual word is reduced to zero syllables. Where does the stress fall in this case?


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## fdb

You do need to realise that the concept of “stress” or “accent” does not actually exist in traditional Arabic grammar and that consequently there are no rules about it in indigenous grammars. There are stress rules in Western grammars of Arabic, but these are based on empirical evidence, not on traditional grammatical theory. Basically, Arabic speakers tend to follow the stress rules pertaining to their own native dialect, even if they are speaking/reading Classical Arabic. Thus, in Syria you will hear mádrasa, but in Egypt you will hear madrása.

For your examples I would suggest the following as “mainstream” pronunciations:
ʼíqraʼ
wá qraʼ
wá bnun
ʼakhádhtu bnán

But others might disagree.


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## Eternal student

I agree with everything fdb says, except: a) In اخذت ابنا, as in the previous two examples, I think the prosodic word boundary is completely different from the morphological word boundary, so you would be more likely to get a.'khadh 'tub.nan. Cf. the (until recently) often heard u.'saa.ma 'tub.nu 'laa.din. b) While it is indeed the case that Egyptian Arabic (and Classical/MSA as spoken by Egyptians) stresses a penultimate light syllable when the antepenultimate is heavy, fdb makes it sound like this is just one example of many types of variation in MSA stress assignment you will hear. In my experience, there is actually essentially no more variation than this. (Though I could have missed something).


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## fdb

Yes, you are right. You are more likely to hear ʼakhadhtú bnan.


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## bearded

Hello
I once knew a Moroccan girl whose name was Fatima (she pronounced Fàtima). She said that, if you add case endings to her name, it would become Fatìmatu/i/a (stress on i), because ''in Arabic no word can have a stress farther back than the pre-penultimate syllable''. Was she right?
Since I read that Arabs from different countries substantially retain their dialects' stress/accent even when they pronounce fuSha, I now wonder if anyone of you would ever pronounce 'Fàtimatu' without stress shift.  Since Fatima was the name of a daughter of the Prophet, would the rules of CA/Qur'anic Arabic influence the pronunciation of that name, as concerns its stress?  Thank you.


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## elroy

clevermizo said:


> Does everyone say "fi ma.dii.*na*.ti.hi" or do some read "fi ma.*dii*.na.ti.hi", maintaining the original stress of "ma.*dii*.na".


 it's always the former.


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## fdb

bearded man said:


> Fatìmatu/i/a (stress on i),



Fāṭimatu is diptotic; there is no such form as *fāṭimati*.


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## elroy

The stress is definitely on the "Ti": "faa*Ti*matu."


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## bearded

Thank you, fdb and elroy.


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## Eternal student

[Mod note: Thread merged with the previous one about the same topic. Please don't forget to search first. Thanks. Cherine]


Hello everyone,

A well known feature of Cairo (and Alexandria) Arabic is that the stressed syllable in words such as مكتبة and مدرسة is one later than it would be in other well-known dialects, such as Damascus Arabic.

My question is: is this _makTAba_-type stress pattern found in any dialects spoken outside of these two cities?

Do you get it throughout Lower Egypt?
What about Upper Egypt/الصعيد?
What about Khartoum?
What about the rest of Sudan?
What about the rest of (North) Africa?
What about the rest of the (eastern) Arabic-speaking world?

Thank you!


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## lena55313

AndyRoo said:


> The stress shifts:
> *mad*rasa مدرسة
> mad*ras*atii مدرستي
> madra*sat*uhu مدرسته


I read about this rule of moving stress in my study book, but in fact native speakers sometimes move the stress, but sometimes not. Even in the audio file to my study book the man who voiced the exercises didn't move the stress when the pronoun was added to the word.
The same I heard here
ق*را*بتها the native speaker leaves the stress on the long syllable, while the third syllable is ba.
Should we count the pronoun while looking where to put the stress? in MSA.


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## AndyRoo

lena55313 said:


> The same I heard here
> ق*را*بتها the native speaker leaves the stress on the long syllable, while the third syllable is ba.


I hear it as: qaraa*bat*iha, i.e. with the stress on the third syllable from the end (as expected).



lena55313 said:


> Should we count the pronoun while looking where to put the stress? in MSA.


Yes.


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## cherine

Eternal student said:


> My question is: is this _makTAba_-type stress pattern found in any dialects spoken outside of these two cities?



In Upper Egypt, and I think some rural areas, the stress is on the first syllable maKtaba, maDrasa.


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## lena55313

AndyRoo said:


> Yes.


Thank you.

What about the stress in the word "beauty" if it is said without tanwinn?
جمال jamaal or jamaal ?
I hear the stress on both vowels.


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## AndyRoo

It's jamaal.

Similarly جمل is jamal.


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## elroy

AndyRoo said:


> It's jamaal.


 Not in MSA. 

In MSA it's "ja*māl*" and "*ja*mal."  Generally speaking, long vowels attract stress in MSA.


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## lena55313

elroy said:


> In MSA it's "ja*māl*" and "*ja*mal." Generally speaking, long vowels attract stress in MSA.



Elroy, the idea was that the stress moves and if we say jamaalun, the stress would be jamaalun, but if we say jamaal without -un, the stress would move forward to jamaal. Also it is written in my study book about this tipe of moving. Exactly, what AndyRoo wrote:
*mad-*ra-sa مدرسة the 3-d syllable from the end
mad-*ra-s*a-tii مدرستي the 3-d syllable from the end
mad-ra-*sa-t*u-hu مدرسته the 3-d syllable from the end

Why do you think it's "ja*māl*"?


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## fdb

lena55313 said:


> What about the stress in the word "beauty" if it is said without tanwinn?
> جمال jamaal or jamaal ?
> I hear the stress on both vowels.



You hear wrongly. The speakers have a very clear stress on the second syllable.


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## lena55313

fdb said:


> The speakers have a very clear stress on the second syllable.


Fdb, can you read, please my previous post #75 What do you hear, karaabatiha or karaabatiha?
I've read just now in my copybook that if the word has only 2 syllables and one of them is long, the stress should be on the long one. So it's definetely should be jamaal.


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## elroy

lena55313 said:


> *mad-*ra-sa مدرسة the 3-d syllable from the end
> mad-*ra-s*a-tii مدرستي the 3-d syllable from the end
> mad-ra-*sa-t*u-hu مدرسته the 3-d syllable from the


 This is correct - except that the final vowel in مدرستي is shortened, so it’s pronounced “mad*ra*sati.” 


lena55313 said:


> Why do you think it's "ja*māl*"?


 I don’t _think_ it is; I know it is. 

In مدرسة, all the vowels are short.  جمال has a long vowel, and as I said, long vowels generally attract stress.


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## lena55313

Sorry Elroy, I'd deleted my message before I saw your answer. I'll return it back. I deleted it because I'd found the rule about 2-syllable words.
But what do you think about karaabatiha or karaabatiha in #75?


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## elroy

“qarā*ba*tiha” is correct, and the native speaker pronounces it correctly.  I think you are perceptually confusing length and stress: “rā” is *long* but it’s not *stressed*.  In this case, the “long vowels attract stress” rule is overriden by another rule that doesn’t allow stress on a syllable before the antepenultimate.


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## fdb

lena55313 said:


> I read about this rule of moving stress in my study book, but in fact native speakers sometimes move the stress, but sometimes not. Even in the audio file to my study book the man who voiced the exercises didn't move the stress when the pronoun was added to the word.
> The same I heard here
> ق*را*بتها the native speaker leaves the stress on the long syllable, while the third syllable is ba.
> Should we count the pronoun while looking where to put the stress? in MSA.



Yes, in the clip that you linked in no. 75 she does in fact stress the second syllable of qarābati-hā, treating the pronoun -hā as part of the following word.


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## elroy

fdb said:


> Yes, in the clip that you linked in no. 75 she does in fact stress the second syllable of qarābati-hā, treating the pronoun -hā as part of the following word.


 No, she doesn’t.  See my post above.


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## fdb

Let us see what others think.


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## lena55313

fdb said:


> Let us see what others think.


Yes, let's wait for more native speakers. All these stresses are making me mad!  
Because initially I heard clearly that in #75 link the girl had put the stress on long syllable.


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## elroy

I’m sorry, but this is not a matter of what anyone “thinks.”  As a native speaker I am 100% of this.  The speaker is also a native speaker, and no native speaker would make this stress mistake. 

This is clearly a perceptual issue; as I said, you seem to be confusing length and stress.  Non-native speakers sometimes mis-process acoustic cues.


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## lena55313

elroy said:


> you seem to be confusing length and stress.


May be, because in my language we mark the stress by pronouncing the stress-vowel longer than other vowels in the word.


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## elroy

I have this issue with Czech, where stress and length do not co-vary.  For example, in _Česká republika_, the syllables are short/stressed, short/unstressed, and long/unstressed.


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## Mahaodeh

lena55313 said:


> let's wait for more native speakers.


I hear what elroy is hearing, the stress is on the long vowel in jamaal and on the baa' in qarabatiha.


fdb said:


> treating the pronoun -hā as part of the following word.


I'm not so sure about that, what I hear is that she is treating the al of the following word as part of qarabatiha. I would do that too if I were to pronounce the two words together.


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## Eternal student

Eternal student said:


> [Mod note: Thread merged with the previous one about the same topic. Please don't forget to search first. Thanks. Cherine]
> 
> 
> Hello everyone,
> 
> A well known feature of Cairo (and Alexandria) Arabic is that the stressed syllable in words such as مكتبة and مدرسة is one later than it would be in other well-known dialects, such as Damascus Arabic.
> 
> My question is: is this _makTAba_-type stress pattern found in any dialects spoken outside of these two cities?
> 
> Do you get it throughout Lower Egypt?
> What about Upper Egypt/الصعيد?
> What about Khartoum?
> What about the rest of Sudan?
> What about the rest of (North) Africa?
> What about the rest of the (eastern) Arabic-speaking world?
> 
> Thank you!



Another attempt to revive this:

It is well known that in (Lower) Egypt they say madRAsa, whereas in most/all other dialects they say MADrasa. Earlier in the thread there was a claim that some Algerian dialects also say madRAsa like in Egypt. Can anyone substantiate this? What about Moroccan/Tunisian/Libyan?

Or could it be that in some of these dialects the second vowel in this word is actually pronounced long and attracts stress for that reason?


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## djara

Eternal student said:


> What about Moroccan/Tunisian/Libyan?


In Tunisia, the word madrasa is MSA and pronounced MADrasa. If ever used in everyday language (as a borrowing from MSA) it'd be pronounced MAdirsa. The most common word for school in Tunisian is maktab, pronounced MAKtab.


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## bearded

djara said:


> The most common word for school in Tunisian is maktab, pronounced MAKtab.


Then how do you differentiate between a school and an office(maktab)?


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## djara

bearded said:


> Then how do you differentiate between a school and an office(maktab)?


For 'office', we use a word borrowed from French 'bureau', pronounced bee-ru.


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## Eternal student

djara said:


> In Tunisia, the word madrasa is MSA and pronounced MADrasa. If ever used in everyday language (as a borrowing from MSA) it'd be pronounced MAdirsa. The most common word for school in Tunisian is maktab, pronounced MAKtab.



Thanks! What about any words of the فَلْفلة  pattern? How do you pronounce and stress those?


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## Hemza

Eternal student said:


> Or could it be that in some of these dialects the second vowel in this word is actually pronounced long and attracts stress for that reason?



In Morocco, it is "medrAsa" in most Moroccan dialects yet in Hassaniya (Southern dialect), it is "mAdrase".


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## wriight

Mild bump, but I figure I can ask about a couple things intriguing me. User clevermizo brought up Levantine verb stresses on page 1, so piggybacking off of that --

In Lebanese, the only thing distinguishing some (2sg.m & 1sg) past-tense verbs, in all their awzan, from the 3sg.f past-tense form is the stress:

ka.*ta*.bet / *ka*.ta.bet  [wrote]
kat.*ta*.bet / *kat*.ta.bet  [made write]
sta3.*ma*.let / *sta3*.ma.let  [used]

Additionally, stress is _generally_ the only thing distinguishing some 3pl verbs, in all tenses and awzan, from a 3sg verb + -o suffix (and, in turn, 2pl from 2sg.m):

*ye*.kt.bo / yek.*te*.bo  [write (it)]
*kat*.ta.bo  / kat.*ta*.bo  [made (him) write]
y.*5a*.fi.fo / y.5af.*fe*.fo  [temper (it)]

...however, for a lot of speakers (and going back a few generations, so not a new development), many of these forms have merged entirely into the one with earlier stress.

Questions:
(1) How do other dialects distinguish the pairs of words in the first group? Do some retain CA's short vowels in a way that tells each two apart?
(2) Do other dialects also merge the two forms in the second group? And how are they differentiated if not? (Some Palestinians I know use -u for plural and -o for the object suffix, as an example, making *ka*tabu vs ka*ta*bo with stress not necessarily being a discriminator)


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## elroy

Palestinian:

ka.*ta*.bet / *kat*.bat
kat.*ta*.bet / *kat*.ta.bat
staʿ.*ma*.let / *staʿ*.ma.lat

*yuk*.tu.bu / *yuk*.tu.bo
*kat*.ta.bu / *kat*.ta.bo
*yxaf*.fi.fu / *yxaf*.fi.fo

The above are based on my speech.  As you can see, in the first group, the words differ in stress as well as the final vowel.  In the second group, the words do not differ in stress, but they do differ in the final vowel.  Some speakers have "o" as the final vowel in the first words in each pair, in which case the words in each pair are identical, and only context indicates what is meant.  However, no speakers, to my knowledge, have identical words for any pairs in the first group.


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## analeeh

wriight said:


> Additionally, stress is _generally_ the only thing distinguishing some 3pl verbs, in all tenses and awzan, from a 3sg verb + -o suffix (and, in turn, 2pl from 2sg.m):
> 
> *ye*.kt.bo / yek.*te*.bo  [write (it)]
> *kat*.ta.bo  / kat.*ta*.bo  [made (him) write]
> y.*5a*.fi.fo / y.5af.*fe*.fo  [temper (it)]
> 
> ...however, for a lot of speakers (and going back a few generations, so not a new development), many of these forms have merged entirely into the one with earlier stress.



The latter set of forms sound totally bizarre to me, and I would guess are a Lebanese innovation (rather than an older form that is lost) to avoid the homophony between _-o_ and _-u_ - or else the innovation moving stress away from the final syllable is an innovation shared across the Levantine area, because as far as I'm aware suffixes normally only trigger a stress shift according to normal stress rules, i.e. suffixes beginning with consonants that change the syllable structure of the final syllable may change the stress but _-o, -ak, -ek_ etc typically don't. In both Syrian and Lebanese the loss of _h_ in _-ha _and _-hon_ has not (for all speakers) meant that these suffixes don't still trigger a stress shift (and Cowell's grammar from the 60s suggests all speakers retain the stress shift, in fact), this doesn't seem to be the case for people of my generation.



> (1) How do other dialects distinguish the pairs of words in the first group? Do some retain CA's short vowels in a way that tells each two apart?



Syrian has the same problem since it shares _-et_ for the third person singular feminine and only distinguishes these forms by stress. It's worth noting though in Syrian and Lebanese both that this _-et_ is still different from the _-et_ in the first and second person, which has an epenthetic _e_ that is easily deleted and cannot be stressed.



> (2) Do other dialects also merge the two forms in the second group? And how are they differentiated if not? (Some Palestinians I know use -u for plural and -o for the object suffix, as an example, making *ka*tabu vs ka*ta*bo with stress not necessarily being a discriminator)



I think Lebanese is fairly unique in merging final _e i _and _o u_, and in fact I'm not even sure that this happens for all Lebanese people (most of the Beiruti speech I hear on the TV seems to have more or less the same distribution as Syrian, while the more old fashioned accents like Marcel Khalife's are the ones I associate with this merger in media at least). For most speakers I think these are distinguished by vowel quality.


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## lena55313

Hi, I found in Wright's Grammar (v.1, §§28-31) a very simple and clear explanation of stress rules. Probably it works only in Classical Arabic.
1. The stress never falls on the last syllable (there are some exeptions to this rule)
2. Then we look for the nearest long vowel or a shut syllable, as we start from the end of the word, and when we find it, we put the stress on it. If we haven't found it, we put the stress on the beginning of the word (on the first syllable).
3. The pausal forms have the same stress as the full forms of the word. The stress doesn't move. 
As to these rules there should be mAd-ra-sa-tun or mAd-ra-sa. 
By the way, the book gives an example mAs-'a-la-tun without moving the stress to mas-'A-la-tun


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