# foutre - niveau de langue



## Starcreator

Is it exceptionally rude to use the verb "foutre"? It's English equivalent, "fuck" is very inappropriate and its use portrays a very undistinguished, uneducated manner of speaking.

If I say "Qu'est-ce que tu fous", is it appropriate around children? How about "fiches"? Is "fous le camp" as harsh as the English "fuck off"? Is "va te faire foutre" as bad as...well, you all get it. Generally, is "foutre" *as serious* and obscene as the English verb "to fuck"?

I choose not to use this verb in English due to its characteristic obscenity and was wondering whether my choice should extend to my French.

Thanks,

Star


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## Cath.S.

Hi Star. 

_Foutre_ is definitely very vulgar, not obscene, just plain vulgar. I personally avoid it, it sounds really common and agressive.

_Va te faire foutre_ definitely means _fuck off_, although most of the time _foutre_ can't be translated to fuck. Etymologically, both words mean the same, event though no one uses _foutre_ in a sexual sense in this day and age.

I'm sure we had a couple of threads where we discussed that word.
Yes, here you go:

fuck off
foutre
va te faire foutre


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## Starcreator

Merci, egeule - cela m'aide. Merci de m'en avoir renseigner


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## beri

"foutre" is "Qu'est-ce que tu fous?" is not as rude as in "va te faire foutre", though 
"Qu'est-ce que tu fous?" is really frequent colloquial language.


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## DDT

beri said:
			
		

> "foutre" is "Qu'est-ce que tu fous?" is not as rude as in "va te faire foutre", though
> "Qu'est-ce que tu fous?" is really frequent colloquial language.



But not that refined... 

DDT


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## elroy

"Je m'en fous" and "Je m'en fiche" aren't that vulgar, at least from my experience.


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## superromu

as Beri said, it is note vulgar, it is colloquial 
you will never write it


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## Jean-Michel Carrère

A sample of uses of the verb to give you an idea of how rude or not so rude foutre can be :

( foutre = faire ) 
qu'est-ce qu'il fout ? : what the hell is he doing ? / what the shit is he doing ?

je n'en ai rien à foutre / je m'en fous / je m'en fous comme de l'an 40 : I don't care / I don't give a damn / 

qui a qqch à foutre de … ? : who gives a shit about … ?
qu'est-ce qu'on en a à foutre ? : who cares ? / 
qu'est-ce qu'on en a à foutre de son opinion ? : who gives a monkey's what he thinks ?

(foutre = mettre / jeter ) 
foutre qqch dans qqch : shove sth into sth

( foutre = ... )
qu'il aille se faire foutre ! : fuck him ! 
va te faire foutre ! / allez vous faire foutre ! : fuck off ! / sod off ! / get stuffed !

extra miscellaneous phrases :

foutre le camp : scram

foutre en l'air : ( jeter ) throw away 
( gâcher : vie / projets ) fuck up / screw up
foutre la vie de qq en l'air : screw up sb's life
( ne pas exploiter : opportunité ) blow
( faire échouer : projets ) play the devil with

foutre la merde dans qqch : fuck up sth

foutre la paix à qq : leave sb alone / 
fous-moi la paix ! : leave me alone ! / give us a break, will you ?


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## LV4-26

Jean-Michel Carrère said:
			
		

> ( foutre = ...mettre ? )
> qu'il aille se faire foutre ! : fuck him !
> va te faire foutre ! / allez vous faire foutre ! : fuck off ! / sod off ! / get stuffed !


Don't you think ?


_Je comprends les joueurs : ils ont trente-cinq chances de ne pas se faire mettre...
Et ils mettent, ils mettent...
(_Léo Ferré _- Il n'ya plus rien)_


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## dictionaric

Oops ! Everybody forgot that FOUTRE is also a noun that means SPERMA in colloquial french.
Example : La femme de chambre de l'hôtel prétend qu'elle retrouve souvent les draps pleins de foutre.


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## superromu

i agree with the meaning but it is rarely used in this case !


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## Cath.S.

I persist in saying that to my ears _foutre_ sounds rude and agressive.

JMC translates 
_qu'est-ce qu'on en a à foutre = who cares ?_
But the normal way to express this is definitely
_qu'est-ce qu'on en a à* faire ?*_ or the more colloquial qu'est-ce qu'on en a à *fiche ?*

I stated this in another thread, but I'll say it again : I only use it if I am _really_ angry, which is seldom. 

To be fair, I have to confess that when I was younger I did what a lot of young people do : I used and abused that sort of language, in order to sound more adult and forceful, ironically enough.


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## Starcreator

But is the verb 'foutre" one for which you would reprimand a child, and for which you would criticize a movie or TV show?

How bout "ficher" - is it appropriate for everyday conversation?


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## Cath.S.

Definitely unsuitable in a child's mouth!
Fiche is milder.

Note that _fiche_ is an infinitive, I think it is the only one of its kind in French.
Ficher exists, but it means _to file_,_ to keep tabs_


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## timpeac

egueule said:
			
		

> Definitely unsuitable in a child's mouth!
> Fiche is milder.
> 
> Note that _fiche_ is an infinitive, I think it is the only one of its kind in French.
> Ficher exists, but it means _to file_,_ to keetabs_


 
Thanks for that Egueule!   That's the most interesting thing I've learnt this week, but I'm funny like that and lead a very boring life! 

My Le Robert gives "ficher" as an alternative, but I think this is probably a modern invention (in the reflexive it only gives se fiche de).


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## Cath.S.

Yes _ficher_ is an alternative, according to dictionaries. But it is seldom used, probably because of the possible confusion with the "real" verb _ficher_.


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## Jad

I have some questions  

*1)*


			
				Jean-Michel Carrère said:
			
		

> va te faire foutre ! / allez vous faire foutre ! : fuck off ! / sod off ! / get stuffed !


 
In english there is a HUGE difference in rudeness between fuck/sod/stuff off, so which actually best corresponds to _va te faire foutre_?

*2) *Why is there such a difference in how rude _qu'est-ce qu'on en a à foutre, je m'en fous, fous le camp... etc etc_ are compared with _va te faire foutre?_ since they're all using the same word   

*3) *Is it ok to say _va te faire foutre _around children?

*4) *Is it ok for children to say _va te faire foutre _around their parents? Because one mention of the "f-word" here means punishing big time   

*5) *If it is so rude to say _va te faire foutre, _why are you so lenient when it comes to rating films with bad language in?

EDIT - Ignore some of the questions if they've been asked already, I was too slow =]


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## Cath.S.

1 Va te faire foutre means fuck off and nothing else
2 because in va te faire foutre the sexual meaning prevails
3 it is not ok at all in my book
4 ditto
5 being rude is people's right


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## timpeac

Jad said:
			
		

> I have some questions
> 
> *1)*
> 
> 
> In english there is a HUGE difference in rudeness between fuck/sod/stuff off, so which actually best corresponds to _va te faire foutre_?
> 
> *2) *Why is there such a difference in how rude _qu'est-ce qu'on en a à foutre, je m'en fous, fous le camp... etc etc_ are compared with _va te faire foutre?_ since they're all using the same word
> 
> *3) *Is it ok to say _va te faire foutre _around children?
> 
> *4) *Is it ok for children to say _va te faire foutre _around their parents? Because one mention of the "f-word" here means punishing big time
> 
> *5) *If it is so rude to say _va te faire foutre, _why are you so lenient when it comes to rating films with bad language in?
> 
> EDIT - Ignore some of the questions if they've been asked already, I was too slow =]


 
I'm just going to answer number 2! 

French functions in so many ways differently from English. Here they are using a grammatical structure to be rude (as ridiculous as that sounds in English!!) Swear words as such are just not as shocking in French as in English. So "foutre" as such is not as shocking as "to fuck". So to add the rudeness they use the "va te faire..." construction. This even renders "va te faire voir" much ruder than I don´t know "go get yourself seen to" or something like that in English. I think it says a lot that use of rude words is not shocking in French, but misuse of grammatical structures is!


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## alain larochelle

Hi jad, In 2) va te faire foutre really means go get fucked, while in other examples (fouts-le là, qu'est-ce tu fouts, etc.) the original meaning is symply not refered to.
I have no idea where the word comes from. perhaps a pastry image, LOL.
BTW can someone suggest a good etymological dictionary, in french and/or english?

EDIT: oops i'm a little late with this one...


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## Cath.S.

Alain, no BTW questions please! 

Start a new thread in this forum about the best etymological  French dictionary, it is an interesting question (which mean I am interested lol)


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## Jad

egueule said:
			
		

> Note that _fiche_ is an infinitive, I think it is the only one of its kind in French.


 
I've come across the word "kène" which is apparently an infinitive and verlan of "n_quer" 

So with these funny words do you conjugate them as normal, or do nothing? Like would you say "Nous nous en fichons" or "nous nous en fiche" ?

Also, if you're watching a film and you hear "va te faire f_", is it the sort of thing that would make you shudder or suddenly perk up, or is it something that doesn't really deserve a reaction and you can just carry on as if someone were just saying "va t'en, s'il te plaît"? Because I know that in an english film (especially with a 12/15 rating) once the f-word's mentioned it's like... woah did I just hear that.


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## Cath.S.

It would be nous nous en fichons.
I was not thinking of verlan when I wrote fiche was the only verb of its kind.
To my knowledge verlan verbs are not conjugated :
Nous kènons ? Oh que non ! 
Les verbes en verlan restent tels quels, ce qui contribue à leur charme raffiné ! 
Si l'in veut conjuguer, il faut s'en tenir à la forme classique :
 "les membres de la bande rivale souhaitaient que nous niquassions nos Nike."


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## dictionaric

Jad said:
			
		

> So with these funny words do you conjugate them as normal, or do nothing? Like would you say "Nous nous en fichons" or "nous nous en fiche" ?


 
I don't think that FOUTRE is so rude in french. It's a question of taste.
Here is the conjugaison :

Je fous, tu fous, il fous, nous foutons, vous foutez, ils foutent
j'ai foutu, je suis foutu.
Nowadays the meaning is "to do" but three centuries ago the meaning was "to fuck". The verb comes from the latin FUTUERE "to have intercourse".

FICHER : je fiche, nous fichons BUT j'ai fichu, je suis fichu (if it replaces foutre).
Also FICHER has two meanings : 1 to do  2 to thrust

As French I am not prude and use the words because they do exist for being used. So I do not write f... or sh.. but fuck and shit


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## LV4-26

dictionaric said:
			
		

> Nowadays the meaning is "to do"


Yes sometimes but....
_- Arthur, où t'as mis le corps ?_
_- Ben J'sais plus où j'l'ai foutu, les mecs !_ (Boris Vian)
doesn't mean I_ can't remember where I did it_ but _where I put it_.


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## dictionaric

Oh mais je n'ai jamais dit que FOUTRE était privé de sens !


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## gshenaut

Is there a difference in rudeness between "je m'en fous" and "je m'en fouts" ?

Greg Shenaut


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## Agnès E.

Bonjour Greg,
Welcome to the forum.

The verb (se) foutre conjugates that way:

Je (me) fous
Tu (te) fous
Il/elle/on (se) fout
Nous (nous) foutons
Vous (vous) foutez
Ils/elles (se) foutent

=> je me fou*ts* does not exist. 


Edit : je me fous => I don't care, this is not really vulgar, just colloquial.


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## gshenaut

Interesting.  In the Ultralingua conjugaison table, they have fouts, fouts, fout, foutons, foutez, foutent.  Is that foutu or what?

Greg Shenaut


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## Agnès E.

Look what leconjugueur.com (in useful links and resources) gives:

http://leconjugueur.com/php/newconjugue.php?lang=fr&oblige=N&verbe=foutre

Non, non, tout n'est pas foutu !


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## gshenaut

Si, je vous crois. Voilà ce que c'est passé : ce matin j'ai vu un dessin dans le Monde où un homme est dépeint au moment de se donner une « injection » avec la buse d'une pompe à essence et de dire « je m'en fous, je veux ma dose ! ». (C'était au sujet de la croissance des prix.)

J'ai remarqué que ce verbe « foutre » est très commun dans le français écrit, et je me suis devenu curieux à en savoir plus. Puis j'ai cherché dans Ultralingua, où j'ai trouvé « je fouts » etc., qui m'a apparu étrange. En suite, j'ai cherché dans Google avec "foutre fous fouts" et j'ai trouvé ce fil.

Et maintenant, grâce à vous, j'ai compris ce que se passe, je suis encore heureux.

Greg Shenaut

P.S. I have notified Ultralingua technical support of their problem.


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## Agnès E.

.........................


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## KristinaMaria

is "sperma" a word that one would use in everyday interactions? either in French or in English i think that is a long shot but I would love to get an example for reference.......


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## Cath.S.

dictionaric said:
			
		

> Oops ! Everybody forgot that FOUTRE is also a noun that means SPERMA in colloquial french.
> Example : La femme de chambre de l'hôtel prétend qu'elle retrouve souvent les draps pleins de foutre.


I don't think "sperma" is a word.
Kristina Maria, the proper French word is _sperme_ (_sperm_ or _semen_ in English) and it can be used in everyday conversation, it is the normal word, neither rude nor overly scientific.


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## guenon-lindz

Jad said:
			
		

> So with these funny words do you conjugate them as normal, or do nothing? Like would you say "Nous nous en fichons" or "nous nous en fiche" ?


 
in my experience they get round this by simply not conjugateing the verb ie using 'on' instead of 'nous'.... (which they generally do in everyday speech to avoid conjugating any verbs into the 'nous' form, verlan or otherwise)
this makes sense as many verlan-ed verbs are taken from the 3rd PS part anyway.... i have never heard a verlan verb conjugated and as you don't often see them written down (apart from the really common ones that have become part of regular speech) i have no idea if there is any difference in 'je kene' and 'tu kene(s?)'.... very interesting tho.... i shall ask my teacher tomorrow at school!! (yes im still at school, only 16  doin advanced higher french tho  yas!!!)
n about the verb 'fiche' thats soooo cool, guess i never thought of what the infinitive would be, bt yeh i guess ficher does have a completely different meanin.... another classroom discussion topic wooo


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## LV4-26

On en a rien à *ficher* (25%)
On en a rien à *fiche* (75%)

Most of the time, the infinitive of this verb is avoided because no one is really sure whether it has to be _ficher _or _fiche. _And it's so much easier to say _rien à foutre_ or_ rien à cirer/secouer/branler,...._


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## hald

Jad said:
			
		

> I have some questions
> 
> *3) *Is it ok to say _va te faire foutre _around children?
> Definitely not.
> 
> *4) *Is it ok for children to say _va te faire foutre _around their parents? Because one mention of the "f-word" here means punishing big time
> This is the kind of thing I'd never say to my mother. I wouldn't even think about it.


 
In absolute terms you're right, that expression is not that rude. The problem is above all that it's very disrispectful.


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## pieanne

"Va te faire foutre" *is* rude.


"Je ne sais plus où je l'ai foutu" is not rude
"Qu'est-ce que tu as foutu?" is not rude
They're just bad language.


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## musikat

Jad said:


> *2) *Why is there such a difference in how rude _qu'est-ce qu'on en a à foutre, je m'en fous, fous le camp... etc etc_ are compared with _va te faire foutre?_ since they're all using the same word


 
I'm way late to this party, but perhaps this will be helpful to someone.

Context can have a huge impact on the sense of a word in English, and perhaps these examples will illuminate the parallel potential in French.
The simple word "do" can be used as a perfect example. One could say:

"I did it!"

...to express completion of a task, but if one referenced a female companion and said:

"I did her."

...there is a clearly sexual meaning. "I made her" has a similar sense with a comparably innocent verb.
The common slogan, introduced by Nike:

"Just do it!"

...has a motivational sense. Though this next expression isn't generally used in English (that I know of):

"Go do yourself!"

...the reflexive quality clearly renders it a crude, dismissive imperative. If someone tossed this off where I live, (California), it would get some odd looks for sounding a bit strange, and observers might wonder if the speaker was a foreigner, but there would be no doubt that the intent was unfriendly and somewhat vulgar.


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## Bostonien

It has been my experience that French people tend to underestimate the vulgarity of the word "fuck" (which is *extremely* vulgar when used in "real life" as opposed to the movies where, yes, it is used all the time). A lot of French people tend to want to use "fuck" (or "shit", which is almost as vulgar) as often as they use "foutre", and this results in extremely vulgar speech that I've had to correct.

My impression is therefore that overall "fuck" and "shit" are more vulgar than "foutre", although reading egueule's comments has been very enlightening. 

Here are some comments/questions on the list of "equivalents" previously posted. The list left me a little confused, so hopefully someone can provide some clarification:



> qu'est-ce qu'il fout ? : what the hell is he doing ? / what the shit is he doing ?


"What the hell is he doing" is much less vulgar than "What the fuck is he doing", so reading this I'm not sure exactly how vulgar "qu'est-ce qu'il fout" is. (BTW we don't say "what the shit is he doing")



> je n'en ai rien à foutre / je m'en fous / je m'en fous comme de l'an 40 : I don't care / I don't give a damn /


"I don't care" is normal, acceptable English. "I don't give a damn" is slightly colloquial and just a little vulgar, but not too bad. So once again, reading this doesn't help me figure out where "Je m'en fous" stands.



> qui a qqch à foutre de … ? : who gives a shit about … ?
> qu'est-ce qu'on en a à foutre ? : who cares ? /
> qu'est-ce qu'on en a à foutre de son opinion ? : who gives a monkey's what he thinks ?


"Who gives a shit about..." is extremely vulgar. 
"Who cares?" is a little colloquial but not vulgar at all.
"Who gives a monkey's ??? what he thinks" is a ridiculous expression that nobody actually uses. More common would be "Who gives a rat's ass..." and that would be considered vulgar. 

Again, the English examples are all over the place in terms of vulgarity, so I'm not sure whether these French expressions are also different from each other...



> qu'il aille se faire foutre ! : fuck him !
> va te faire foutre ! / allez vous faire foutre ! : fuck off ! / sod off ! / get stuffed !


"Fuck off!" and "Fuck him!" are both extremely vulgar, but so are the French expressions so here I agree that the translation is pretty accurate. (Except for "get stuffed" which in the U.S. is not a common expression)



> foutre le camp : scram


"Scram" is colloquial but not the least bit vulgar (you hear the word in children's cartoons). Is this the case for "foutre le camp"?



> foutre en l'air : ( jeter ) throw away


"Throw away" is normal, acceptable English. I assume then that "foutre en l'air" is normal, acceptable French.




> ( gâcher : vie / projets ) fuck up / screw up
> foutre la vie de qq en l'air : screw up sb's life
> ( ne pas exploiter : opportunité ) blow


Here again I'm confused. "Fuck up" is extremely vulgar whereas "screw up" is colloquial but not vulgar. I would say "screw up" in front of my boss at work but definitely not "fuck up". So which translation is more accurate?



> ( faire échouer : projets ) play the devil with


Nobody says this in the U.S.



> foutre la merde dans qqch : fuck up sth
> foutre la paix à qq : leave sb alone /
> fous-moi la paix ! : leave me alone ! / give us a break, will you ?


"Fuck something up" is extremely vulgar, so I assume that "foutre la merde dans qqch" is also extremely vulgar.

"Leave sb alone" is normal, acceptable English. "Give us/me a break" is colloquial but also acceptable in front of children. Is this the case for "Foutre la paix à qqn" and "Fous-moi la paix !"? (Both seem more vulgar to me, but that's why I'm asking)

It's hard figuring out an "equivalent" level of vulgarity, especially since cultural and linguistic differences can have a large effect. That said, I think it would be very helpful if native French speakers could help clarify some of these translations, since the English examples are all over the place in terms of how acceptable they are.


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## Bostonien

Here's an example to help clarify my generalizations about French people and their use of swear words.

It happens fairly often that a French coworker will have something relatively mild happen. Maybe they drop a pencil on the floor, or there's a paper jam. In any case, something like this happens and I hear "FUCK!" or "SHIT!" and my reaction is immediately 

*"What?! What happened? Did someone get hurt?!"

*at which point the French person will say "oh no - I just dropped a pencil". 

The point here is that when I hear vulgar words like "fuck" and "shit" in real life (as opposed to the movies), then I expect someone to really be upset, angry, and even then I perceive the comments as inappropriate. The anglophones I work with have gotten used to the cultural difference, so we don't _really _think anything negative when we realize it's a non-native speaker, but we do try to explain that these words should be used *sparingly* unless you really want to sound vulgar and offensive. 

I hope this helps shed some light on the complex relationships between words like "fuck" and "foutre".


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## poulbot77

Hum!

Here is the difficulty to translate from a language to another!
You have not to translate a word but an expression, including context, culture, history, people level and relationship.....

In the slang language you have also levels, or if you create a scale from the “good” French to the “slang”, may be 1 for good French and 5 for the hardest slang!

Level 1: va te faire voir (ailleurs)!
Level 3: va te faire foutre!
Level 5: ve te faire enculer! (sorry!)

The word is, sometime, not really important, the sentence yes! Example:

Level 5: va te faire mettre ! Is very aggressive, without any slang word!

I remember a topic about the word “con”, we can write pages about this word too! Is it possible to translate it in English? Not really! You have to translate the meaning of the sentence, not the word!

PP


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## gegetronic

moi je comprends pas pourquoi vous n'écoutez pas Superromu?


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## Gez

poulbot77 said:


> The word is, sometime, not really important, the sentence yes! Example:
> 
> Level 5: va te faire mettre ! Is very aggressive, without any slang word!


Or "Va te faire voir chez les Grecs", same meaning and same rudeness, because of the old stereotype that the Greek practice sodomy.

The Papuans (Papous) also have that reputation, leading to my favorite version of that curse, favorite for its nearly poetic level of absurdity and offensiveness:
"Va te faire empapouter chez les Grecs !"


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## Gez

Bostonien said:


> "What the hell is he doing" is much less vulgar than "What the fuck is he doing", so reading this I'm not sure exactly how vulgar "qu'est-ce qu'il fout" is. (BTW we don't say "what the shit is he doing")


I would say it's on the level of "what the hell." "Qu'est qu'il fiche" corresponds to "what the heck" and "qu'est qu'il fait" to "what on Earth"...



Bostonien said:


> "I don't care" is normal, acceptable English. "I don't give a damn" is slightly colloquial and just a little vulgar, but not too bad. So once again, reading this doesn't help me figure out where "Je m'en fous" stands.


Would be on the level of "I don't give a rat's ass." The "damn" level is for "fiche", and the more polite versions (on the level of "I don't care") are "je m'en moque", "je m'en balance."

There's also "je m'en contrefous" which is stronger than "fous" but not more vulgar.



Bostonien said:


> "Scram" is colloquial but not the least bit vulgar (you hear the word in children's cartoons). Is this the case for "foutre le camp"?


No, it would be "on dégage !" ("let's scram!") or "dégage(z) !" for "scram" in that context.



Bostonien said:


> "Throw away" is normal, acceptable English. I assume then that "foutre en l'air" is normal, acceptable French.


In informal conversation, yes. You can use "fiche" here to be more polite, though. "Il m'a encore tout fichu en l'air ! J'en ai ras-le-bol de ranger derrière lui !" Say someone, angry about the mess his roomie made in the living room.[/quote]


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## broglet

Jad said:


> Why is there such a difference in how rude _qu'est-ce qu'on en a à foutre, je m'en fous, fous le camp... etc etc_ are compared with _va te faire foutre?_ since they're all using the same word


The rudeness of words, in both French and English - and I suspect in any language - is in a large part contextual.

Compare:
Fuck off! (said with a smile to a friend)
Fuck off! (said agressively to a stranger)
I don't give a fuck
Oh fuck! (eg when you drop something)

As for comparing degrees of rudeness between English and French, you then have to add cultural considerations ... and the whole thing becomes impossibly complicated!


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## LV4-26

Another important factor to take into consideration is that the verb "_foutre_" is hardly ever used any longer to refer to sexual intercourse, I mean, in a matter-of-fact way, devoid of any abusive intent (but vulgar all the same). Whereas f**k is still used in that sense.


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## broglet

LV4-26 said:


> Another important factor to take into consideration is that the verb "_foutre_" is hardly ever used any longer to refer to sexual intercourse, I mean, in a matter-of-fact way, devoid of any abusive intent (but vulgar all the same). Whereas f**k is still used in that sense.


This is true; in fact 'fuck' is the main word to refer to sexual intercourse in English, but why is that important?


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## Zhorg

well, if we go that way, "shag" is very used too (british)


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## LV4-26

broglet said:


> This is true; in fact 'fuck' is the main word to refer to sexual intercourse in English, but why is that important?


It makes a difference because when you use "_foutre_" the sexual meaning is not really present in your mind, since that's not the word you generally use for that. I think it is even true, though to a lesser extent, for _va te faire foutre._. Only _va te faire baiser_, if it existed, would reach the same degree of vulgarity as _fuck off._ or similar phrases.


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## Zhorg

on dit pas trop "va te faire baiser"
"va te faire mettre" or "va te faire en***er" (very rude indeed !!!)
après tout dépend de la région : même en France, certaines expressions peuvent changer d'une région à une autre...et suis certaine que c'est idem au Canada, Suisse, Belgique ect...avec des expressions différentes...


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## LV4-26

Zhorg said:


> on dit pas trop "va te faire baiser"
> .


J'irais presque jusqu'à dire pas du tout.


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## konungursvia

It's about like "what the hell" or "screwed" in rudeness, not nearly as much as our f-word.


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## hamer1970

Is it ever appropriate to teach a student the expression, "Je m'en fous"?

Last night I came across a poster in a teacher's materials catalogue that had French _gestes _and expressions such as "quelle barbe," etc. and "je m'en fous" was on it. I was a bit shocked... how bad is that expression really?


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## broglet

LV4-26 said:


> It makes a difference because when you use "_foutre_" the sexual meaning is not really present in your mind, since that's not the word you generally use for that. I think it is even true, though to a lesser extent, for _va te faire foutre._. Only _va te faire baiser_, if it existed, would reach the same degree of vulgarity as _fuck off._ or similar phrases.


Sorry to reply 9 months later, LV, but when English people say 'fuck off!' the sexual meaning is not normally present in their minds either.  I don't think 'fuck off' is any more vulgar than 'va te faire foutre' and it certainly wouldn't evoke images of sexual intercourse.


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## DaiCon

hamer1970 said:


> Is it ever appropriate to teach a student the expression, "Je m'en fous"?
> 
> Last night I came across a poster in a teacher's materials catalogue that had French _gestes _and expressions such as "quelle barbe," etc. and "je m'en fous" was on it. I was a bit shocked... how bad is that expression really?



Bonjour hamer1970,

Here I am responding to a thread that is several years old, but since the last few messages are only from two months ago, I guess that isn't too bad?

I'm not a native French speaker, but I just wanted to point out that this phrase occurs in a couple of French pop songs that I've heard. I think that should give some hint as to how acceptable it is.

One of them is the song "À la vie, à la mort" by Eve, who seems to be something like the French Britney Spears? The first verse is:

Éclair éclats
La terre tremble sous mes pas
Toujours je reste debout
Même sous la pluie
Le coeur sans abri
Je suis trempé et je m'en fous

If you search on YouTube I think there is a video of it. It appears to be your typical teeny-bopper dance hit, so I don't think that "je m'en fous" can be too shocking.

Another occurrence is in the song "Le petit voisin" by Jeanne Cherhal. (I believe you can also find this song on YouTube.)

Mais le petit voisin, il est total stoïque.
Et d'ailleurs il s'en fout car il est étudiant.

This song is a lot more serious (Cherhal is more of a serious artiste, with a jazzy edge to her music, and would probably be scandalized to be mentioned in the same thread with Eve.  ) But still, I suspect this "il s'en fout" is fairly tame.

Lastly, an example of a phrase you didn't ask about, but which was mentioned earlier on this thread, and which Cherhal uses in her song "Voilà": fous le camp.

C'est une histoire ancienne et pourtant c'est dans ma tête
J'ai beau lui va-t'en elle reste là
C'est un vieux souvenir un craquement d'alumette
J'ai beau lui dire fous le camp il bouge pas

The parallelism between the second and fourth lines suggests that, if "fous le camp" is more harsh than "va-t'en", at least it is not greatly so.

So, it may not be the kind of language you would want to use at an official state dinner with Sarkozy (depending, always, on how you feel about Sarkozy, of course  ), but I don't think it's that bad overall.

As to whether to teach it to students, when I hear that question I picture high school students, since that's the age at which I took French classes. If you're talking about younger students, I suppose not, but, _quant à moi_, I think it would be okay for high school students, and certainly for college students.

I've gotten such a boost in my listening comprehension from listening to French pop songs (try it!) that I would hate to rule out those songs for students, particularly "À la vie, à la mort" which I think is both at a fair level of difficulty for intermediate high school students as well as stylistically something they might actually like to listen to. Besides, you're going to warn them against (mis)using "baiser", right? Or are you going to leave that land mine for them to trip over, for fear of telling them a bad word? Or tell them not to use it, but not tell them why?

Note: I am not, and never have been, a French teacher. Just the thoughts of a language learner and former student.

À plus,
Dai


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## scottbutcher

broglet said:


> Sorry to reply 9 months later, LV, but when English people say 'fuck off!' the sexual meaning is not normally present in their minds either.  I don't think 'fuck off' is any more vulgar than 'va te faire foutre' and it certainly wouldn't evoke images of sexual intercourse.



Nevertheless, the word "fuck" has a very definite sexual meaning in English, whether that is what one has in mind or not.  What the lady is saying is that it has no sexual significance at all in modern French ... however she is wrong in saying that it no longer has ANY sexual connotations ... according to one source I read, gay men use it in a very sexual sense to mean "semen" and "ejaculatory activities" of one kind or another


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## Cath.S.

scottbutcher said:


> Nevertheless, the word "fuck" has a very definite sexual meaning in English, whether that is what one has in mind or not. What the lady is saying is that it has no sexual significance at all in modern French ... however she is wrong in saying that it no longer has ANY sexual connotations ... according to one source I read, gay men use it in a very sexual sense to mean "semen" and "ejaculatory activities" of one kind or another


_Foutre_ is also slang for _semen_ in the mouth of heterosexuals.


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## broglet

egueule said:


> _Foutre_ is also slang for _semen_ in the mouth of heterosexuals.


but not semen elsewhere?


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## LV4-26

Foutre, as a noun, does mean _semen_ in all contexts, backgrounds and social environments.

_Foutre_, as a verb, is no longer used as a standalone word (or only by people who like to use 18th-century talk and, in that case, it does mean _fuck_).

It is, however, used in expressions, like
_Je m'en fous_ (I d'ont give a damn)
_Fous le camp_ (Beat it).

Then, it is (again) considered less rude than are _I don't give a fuck_ or _fuck off._ See DaiCon's song examples.

_Va te faire foutre_
might be a different case (well, I *did* say "to a lesser extent", you know), because the meaning of _foutre_ is made more...visible, as it were.


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## Cath.S.

broglet said:


> but not semen elsewhere?


Hum, je me suis mise dans de sales draps.
Bien sûr,_ foutre_ signifie _sperme_ - quel que soit l'endroit où il se trouve.


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## Dan Badger

Somewhere, in this rather meandering but interesting thread, someone asked if it was appropriate to teach children these words. I recall clearly, even though it was many years ago as a young teenager, when I first started learning French, that these were pretty much the first words I _wanted_ to learn.

I would say it's the hardest thing to swear convincingly in a foreign language and very easy to balls it up. However, I want to know what the vague equivalents and if, when I was 13, someone had bothered to teach me what 'je m'en fous' or 'je m'en fiche' etc meant, it would have saved me a lot of time over the years, trying to work out what someone was saying or trying to follow the dialogue in a film. Thank god for this forum.

Dan


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## broglet

egueule said:


> Hum, je me suis mise dans de sales draps.
> Bien sûr,_ foutre_ signifie _sperme_ - quel que soit l'endroit où il se trouve.


now I know what is meant by _une mise en bouche _


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## Cath.S.

Dan Badger said:


> Somewhere, in this rather meandering but interesting thread, someone asked if it was appropriate to teach children these words. I recall clearly, even though it was many years ago as a young teenager, when I first started learning French, that these were pretty much the first words I _wanted_ to learn.
> 
> I would say it's the hardest thing to swear convincingly in a foreign language and very easy to balls it up. However, I want to know what the vague equivalents and if, when I was 13, someone had bothered to teach me what 'je m'en fous' or 'je m'en fiche' etc meant, it would have saved me a lot of time over the years, trying to work out what someone was saying or trying to follow the dialogue in a film. Thank god for this forum.
> 
> Dan


I get your point and as a teenager I was also eager to swear in English. 
But would you really hear your kids use the word_ fuck_ without telling them off? 
Exactly as it is normal for kids to be rebellious and use "adult" language, it's normal for adults to set limits, isn't it?


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## timpeac

These last few posts have left a bad taste in my mouth because I think it is important to highlight that "foutre", used as a verb, is not as rude as "to fuck" - and often doesn't mean that. It seems to me that swearing in French is more common than in English - or rather is at a "familiar" (as opposed to popular) level of language (at the popular level everyone's at it). Of course if the natives disagree I'll swallow my pride and admit I was wrong.


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## Cath.S.

timpeac said:


> These last few posts have left a bad taste in my mouth because I think it is important to highlight that "foutre", used as a verb, is not as rude as "to fuck" - and often doesn't mean that. It seems to me that swearing in French is more common than in English - or rather is at a "familiar" (as opposed to popular) level of language (at the popular level everyone's at it). Of course if the natives disagree I'll swallow my pride and admit I was wrong.


Tim  with all due respect and even though I agree it is (much) less obcene in French, you won't succeed in convincing me it's delightful, especially when kids are concerned.


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## broglet

It is clear that the word _fuck_ is always somewhat shocking, used in any context, and there are stilll many serious newspapers which would not dream of printing it (they would print '**** off' for example; does the equivalent ever happen in French? I can't remember seeing it). 

There is only one word more shocking than _fuck_ in English, viz _cunt (_which is why D H Lawrence caused such a stir with _Lady Chatterley's Lover)_

The word _foutre_ and its conjugations are, by contrast , never so shocking, and they can be used in a pretty innocuous way, as can _con_.

I deduce from all this that the French are more level-headed about language, in the sense that they see obscenity or rudeness in intention rather than in words.


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## Dan Badger

egueule said:


> I get your point and as a teenager I was also eager to swear in English.
> But would you really hear your kids use the word_ fuck_ without telling them off?
> Exactly as it is normal for kids to be rebellious and use "adult" language, it's normal for adults to set limits, isn't it?


 
I totally agree, but would add that from an early age most kids know what the swear words are and the trick is to teach them when it is inappropriate to use, or to not use them. (usually making one seem like a complete hyporcite in the process!)

I'm still shocked when I hear children swear.

Dan


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## broglet

Dan Badger said:


> I'm still shocked when I hear children swear.
> Dan


 
You must live your life in a state of shock - unless you rarely hear boys. Surely most boys swear a lot of the time?  Is this true in France too? [moderator - I know this might sound like sociology, but I think it is language too!]


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## scottbutcher

LV4-26 said:


> _Foutre_, as a verb, is no longer used as a standalone word (or only by people who like to use 18th-century talk and, in that case, it does mean _fuck_).



In Shakepeare's _The Life of King Henry V_,  the Princess Katherine of France is learning English and says to her lady-in-waiting Alice:

_Kath. Comment appelez vous le pieds et la robe.
Alice. De foot, madame; et de coun.
Kath. O Seigneur Dieu! ce sont mots de son mauvais, corruptible, gros et impudique, et non pour les dames d'honneur d'user ..._

So certainly in Shakepeare's time _foutre_ seems to have been a very strong word indeed (assuming that he was accurate about this).


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## lemec

Can someone tell me if the word foutu is from the verb foutre..as in this example..
"les chats ont foutu tout partout"


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## melu85

lemec said:


> Can someone tell me if the word foutu is from the verb foutre..as in this example..
> "les chats ont foutu tout partout"


"foutu" does come from "foutre"


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## Hooper_X

timpeac said:


> ...So to add the rudeness they use the "va te faire..." construction.



This seems, to me at least, very similar to the regionally ubiquitous east coast U.S. phrase, go fuck yourself. That phrase is bandied about quite casually even between friends.


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## Fiximication

I realise that this is a rather old thread, but just in case anyone is being scared off by Bostonien's post, I feel I should point out that the truth of a lot of what he/she says is, in my experience, shall we say "restricted to certain social circles".



Bostonien said:


> It has been my experience that French people tend to underestimate the vulgarity of the word "fuck" (which is *extremely* vulgar when used in "real life" as opposed to the movies where, yes, it is used all the time). A lot of French people tend to want to use "fuck" (or "shit", which is almost as vulgar) as often as they use "foutre", and this results in extremely vulgar speech that I've had to correct.



Vulgar, usually. "Extremely" vulgar - very rarely. I would suggest that to the majority of the population of all the English speaking countries I've experienced (certainly in the UK and NZ), "fuck" is already a part of everyday language. It's already lost its "shock factor" to most people, and the circles, situations and ways in which it is acceptable to use it are only widening.



Bostonien said:


> My impression is therefore that overall "fuck" and "shit" are more vulgar than "foutre", although reading egueule's comments has been very enlightening.



Shit no. You're shitting me. While I certainly agree that one would still want to be careful not to use "fuck" in various company and situations (young children present, "posh" settings, in church etc.), I think you'd have to have led a very sheltered life to be shocked by the use of "shit" in almost any context.

While as with foutre there are different uses of each which may be more or less vulgar or likely to cause offence, I'm finding it difficult to come up with a use of "shit" that I would find it reasonable for someone to be offended by.

At the mild end of the scale, "It's fucked" (terminally broken) would be unlikely to cause offence in most circles. Marginally higher up the scale, "Stop fucking about and go do something useful" or "This is really fucking with my head". "Fuck off" is usually fairly inoffensive too, and you only really get going when you get to "I couldn't give a flying fuck what you think", "Fuck you", "Go fuck yourself" and the like. As usual, the more innocuous can be pushed up the scale if used with appropriate vehemence, and the impact of each can be minimised if spoken without emphasis.

I find the comparisons with foutre most interesting because I have also come across the use of "fuck" in one of the ways "foutre" was mentioned as being used (which I was not previously aware of) - "Fuck that over here would you" for "pass it to me please"...



Bostonien said:


> "Who gives a shit about..." is extremely vulgar.
> "Who cares?" is a little colloquial but not vulgar at all.
> "Who gives a monkey's ??? what he thinks" is a ridiculous expression that nobody actually uses. More common would be "Who gives a rat's ass..." and that would be considered vulgar.



Gross generalisations - "Who gives a shit?" is somewhat, but certainly not "extremely" vulgar, anywhere I've ever been aware of. "Who gives a rat's ass" is *very* American. "I couldn't give a monkey's?" is very common (at least in the UK and NZ) and ends there - it is never continued, and I'm sure most wouldn't know what to continue it with if they wanted to. Not ridiculous at all if used in the right situation, and not vulgar.



Bostonien said:


> "Fuck off!" and "Fuck him!" are both extremely vulgar, but so are the French expressions so here I agree that the translation is pretty accurate. (Except for "get stuffed" which in the U.S. is not a common expression)



"Get stuffed" is an interesting one. Likely to cause offence when used "directly", but perfectly acceptable to use to describe what happened to a third party later - "And then I told him to get stuffed..."




Bostonien said:


> It's hard figuring out an "equivalent" level of vulgarity, especially since cultural and linguistic differences can have a large effect. That said, I think it would be very helpful if native French speakers could help clarify some of these translations, since the English examples are all over the place in terms of how acceptable they are.



Since the levels of vulgarity are evidently very different in English depending on context - physical, cultural, and spoken - I'd guess that the same is likely to be the case in French. It does seem to me though (from what's been written here and from my experience of using and abusing "foutre" in French) that while "fuck" may have in the past been generally a little "ruder" than "foutre", they are probably converging both in terms of usage and perceived vulgarity.


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## Bostonien

Wow - I hadn't read this thread in quite awhile. Lots of discussion, which is understandable given how difficult it can be to say that word "X" in French is more or less vulgar than word "Y" in English.

I think the thing to take away from all this is that if you're going to use slang as a non-native speaker, it's generally best to start with less vulgar expressions and then work your way towards stronger language as you learn (assuming that's your goal). Obviously, one needs to be conscious of the social situation (school? work? hanging out with friends?). Cultural and regional differences are also a factor - the same expression can be viewed differently in the U.S. and the U.K., for example.

I do feel the need to defend and clarify myself a bit. After reviewing the entire thread, I stand by my general comments about the vulgarity of words in *United States English*, especially when taken as guidance to non-native speakers.

Expressions that I call "vulgar" or "extremely vulgar" should generally be avoided around children or people you don't know well, unless you're somehow sure it'll be ok. At the very least, a non-native speaker needs to be aware that such word(s) _could possibly offend_ in certain situations. I can't speak for the UK or NZ, but here in the US most people agree that it's inappropriate to ask a small child if he/she "gives a shit about" something, or tell a child that you "don't give a shit". That's pretty much true for all uses of "shit" and "fuck", which is why I would call those words "vulgar/extremely vulgar". (Also - both of those words are censored on U.S. television, which is an important objective, cultural fact to keep in mind.)

Expressions that I call "not vulgar at all" are safe pretty much everywhere in the U.S, including around children. A non-native speaker generally never has to worry if it's safe or appropriate to use expressions that are colloquial but not vulgar. 

Now, I'm sure there are some parents that say "shit" around their 4 year-old all the time, but I truly believe it helpful to use these notions of "vulgar" and "not vulgar" when helping non-native speakers to learn the nuances of U.S. English. Much more helpful than teaching that "fuck" and "shit" are part of "everyday language", which is just plain inaccurate (again, I can only speak for the U.S.)


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## Fiximication

Bostonien said:


> I think the thing to take away from all this is that if you're going to use slang as a non-native speaker, it's generally best to start with less vulgar expressions and then work your way towards stronger language as you learn (assuming that's your goal). Obviously, one needs to be conscious of the social situation (school? work? hanging out with friends?). Cultural and regional differences are also a factor - the same expression can be viewed differently in the U.S. and the U.K., for example.
> 
> I do feel the need to defend and clarify myself a bit. After reviewing the entire thread, I stand by my general comments about the vulgarity of words in *United States English*, especially when taken as guidance to non-native speakers.
> 
> Expressions that I call "vulgar" or "extremely vulgar" should generally be avoided around children or people you don't know well, unless you're somehow sure it'll be ok. At the very least, a non-native speaker needs to be aware that such word(s) _could possibly offend_ in certain situations. I can't speak for the UK or NZ, but here in the US most people agree that it's inappropriate to ask a small child if he/she "gives a shit about" something, or tell a child that you "don't give a shit". That's pretty much true for all uses of "shit" and "fuck", which is why I would call those words "vulgar/extremely vulgar". (Also - both of those words are censored on U.S. television, which is an important objective, cultural fact to keep in mind.)
> 
> Expressions that I call "not vulgar at all" are safe pretty much everywhere in the U.S, including around children. A non-native speaker generally never has to worry if it's safe or appropriate to use expressions that are colloquial but not vulgar.
> 
> Now, I'm sure there are some parents that say "shit" around their 4 year-old all the time, but I truly believe it helpful to use these notions of "vulgar" and "not vulgar" when helping non-native speakers to learn the nuances of U.S. English. Much more helpful than teaching that "fuck" and "shit" are part of "everyday language", which is just plain inaccurate (again, I can only speak for the U.S.)



I think that's a very fair comment, overall.

Context is clearly massively important. And perhaps the whole concept of "everyday language" is actually a bit misleading - it depends who you are, where you are, who you're talking to, what impression you want to give them, and much more besides.

So I guess in the end the best answer is "it depends" 

Better safe than sorry though, as Bostonien points out.


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## sandman2

Je suis prof de 8ième année au Canada, et je veux introduire mes classes à des vidéos et émissions français.  Comme c'est une classe d'adolescents qui ont 13 ans, et les parents peuvent être conservateurs, je ne suis pas certain si je devrais les expliquer ce que c'est 'foutre', ou même les montrer des clips avec 'foutre'.

Selon WR, foutre peut dire 'fuck, damn, shit', selon la contexte.  Je dirais 'damn' en avant de mon fils de 6 ans sans problème, 'shit' devant mon fils de 15 ans sans trop de surpris, et je ne dirais 'fuck' avant un adolescent que dans les situations pires.

Alors, est-ce que vous avez des conseils?  Est-ce que vous utiliseriez 'foutre' en présence de vos enfants?  Je sais que le mot peut changer avec la contexte.  Dois-je les enseigner 'foutre' en certains contextes, mais pas en autres?

Merci pour les conseils!


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## hampton.mc

I wouldn't use "Foutre"
"Va te faire foutre" means "go and fuck yourself"
Foutre is a slang word for sperm as well ...


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## Erzz

Cela dépend. Il y a le nom, et le verbe.
Comme l'a dit Hampton.mc, le _nom _*foutre *est un mot d'argot très vulgaire pour désigner le sperme. Certainement pas un mot à apprendre à vos élèves !
Ensuite il y a le _verbe, _qu'on utilise dans différents contextes :


*Va te faire foutre* *! *= Go fuck yourself. Je ne vous conseillerais pas de l'apprendre à des adolescents.
 

*J'en ai rien à foutre* = I don't give a shit. Encore un peu trop familier.
 

*Je m'en fous* = une manière plus familière de dire *Je m'en fiche* = I don't care.


 *Foutre *comme synonyme de *faire. Qu'est-ce que tu fous ? = *What the hell are you doing? *J'ai rien foutu aujourd'hui. *= I didn't do a damn thing today.
Je pense que vous pouvez utiliser les deux derniers qui sont familiers, mais pas vulgaires.


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## seppo

I'm reading Giacomo Casanova's memoirs "Histoire de ma vie", and there's a rather funny anecdote related to this subject there - on his first visit to Paris in 1750, he goes to the Opera, where he has a seat on the parquet just below the box where Madame de Pompadour and Maréchal Richelieu are sitting. He has a head cold and keeps blowing his nose, so Richelieu quips to him that apparently the windows in his room are not closed properly. Never at a loss of words, he quips back: "_Demande pardon, monsieur, elles sont même calfoutrées_" causing a riot of laughter and realizing too late that he has mispronounced the last word (_calfeutrées_).

A great read, by the way


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## Shari Usa

Interesting to note that all of these words are also infinitive verbs* with neutral meanings:
faire= to make/do do; ficher= to file/to do/to drive in; foutre = to do; 
While this one isn't used as an insult:baiser = faire l'amour/to kiss arse (fam.)/to have sex

As timpeac wrote, " I think it says a lot that use of rude words is not shocking in French, but misuse of grammatical structures is!"

There is no French equivalent to the "f-word" in English. Even "va te faire foutre" literally means "go to make yourself to do." It all comes down to context and grammatical use of a word/phrase in French.
*click hyperlink for verb2verbe conjugator & translations


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## joelooc

Am I late or didn't anyone mention: "tu te fous de ma gueule?" and "c'est vraiment se foutre du monde"! Dig!


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## rasputin1963

This is all very interesting to me at present:  I am authoring an SRT subtitles file for  a French movie...    so that it might have English subtitles for Anglophones.    I am watching the excellent film SOEUR SOURIRE  (Belgium,  2009) .       There is one moment in which a man tells a nun:  "Va te faire foutre!",     and I am debating whether I should tell English readers the man told her "Fuck off!"   or something milder,  like "Get lost!".

After reading this thread,  it seems pretty clear to me that a man has just told a nun to "Fuck off!" ,   haha.

This same nun also tells her Mother Superior,  "Je m'en foutre!".     I suppose the English equivalent would be  "I don't give a shit!"   or maybe something a little milder like  "I don't give a damn!".  Either way,  it's a strong phrase to yell at a mother Superior,  no?


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