# でさ, てさ



## Starfrown

I found this sentence in a manga:


ちょいと......人間を......殺っちまったんでさ......


(Note that 殺る is read やる above)


I know what the sentence means, but what exactly is expressed by the ending "-de sa" or "-te sa"?
 
Edit: I guess my question is: Why use the ~te form before sa?


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## SpiceMan

Hmm... hard to explain.

んで　is http://www.guidetojapanese.org/particles3.html (The の particle as explanation section)

the last さ is "(sentence end, mainly masc.) indicates assertion;" according to the Jim Breen's wwwjdic... 

Neither explanation convince me, but they are better than what I can do myself


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## Flaminius

Starfrown said:


> Edit: I guess my question is: Why use the ~te form before sa?


Hello,

Probably a contraction of ですわ, でさ is a variation of です.  In fact _-te_ cannot appear after の (which is realised as ん in this phrase).

I have never encountered でさ in real life but historical novels use it  all the time as part of dialectal polite speech.


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## Starfrown

Flaminius said:


> Hello,
> 
> Probably a contraction of ですわ, でさ is a variation of です. In fact _-te_ cannot appear after の (which is realised as ん in this phrase).
> 
> I have never encountered でさ in real life but historical novels use it all the time as part of dialectal polite speech.


 
I know that ~te cannot appear after the nominalizer "no"; I just thought this might apply to verbs other than the copula.  Would ですわ not be considered feminine?


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## Flaminius

> Would ですわ not be considered feminine?


Ah, yes but they are different.  The feminine ですわ has a rising pitch towards the end, whereas the masculine ですわ doesn't.  Both types of ですわ are natural in modern day conversations.  It is only でさ (< ですわ m.) that's dialectal or historical.


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## Starfrown

Interesting. I have never heard of masculine sentence-final "wa" before. Is it essentially the same as the feminine "wa" in usage, i.e. indicating light assertion, etc.?


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## Flaminius

Hi,

The _wa_ in _desuwa_ is more like Sense 2 of this definition:


> 軽い詠嘆や驚きなどの気持ちを表す。
> 
> ・ほんとうによくやる―、あの男は
> ・これは驚いた―​


​


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## Starfrown

O Flamini docte, multas gratias tibi ago.


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## SpiceMan

Starfrown said:


> Interesting. I have never heard of masculine sentence-final "wa" before. Is it essentially the same as the feminine "wa" in usage, i.e. indicating light assertion, etc.?


Just as a side note. In the Kansai area, ending "wa" usage is not restricted to women. 

For instance, "kaeru wa!" is, in my opinion, more likely to be said by a man than a woman around here (Osaka).

That said, some phrases (which I can't come with a rule or something since I haven't been really paying attention about this) still sound femenine even in this area. So I avoid using this wa except on phrases that I know are safe.

Just wanted to mention this because you might hear a desuwa from a guy and it might be that he isn't gay p), but just not speaking in 標準語.


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## akimura

Starfrown said:


> ちょいと......人間を......殺っちまったんでさ......
> 
> I know what the sentence means, but what exactly is expressed by the ending "-de sa" or "-te sa"?



To the extent that I can think of, this type of さ generally functions as "and, ..." or "so, ... ".  The sentence that ends with さ is quite often used to start a new topic, and sentences that follow are expected to describe what the speaker really want to say.  If no setences follow the the previous sentece that ends with さ, which is probably the case with the topic sentence, it often connotates a feeling of "you know...". 

I've lived in Tokyo, Kanagawa, and other reagions but all in the Kanto area in my lifetime, and I've used, and heard, this さ quite often.

Some examples:今朝雨に降られちゃって*さ*、ずぶ濡れになっちゃったよ。
I got caught in rain this morning, *and* I got soaking wet.

今朝雨に降られちゃって*さ*。
I got caught in rain this morning. （silence, with a feeling of and, so, you know, or you know what happened)

A: どうして今、今朝と違う服きているの？
   Why are you in a different outfit now than this morning?
B: さっき雨に降られちゃって*さ*。
I got caught in rain just now, (silence, with a feeling of "that's why I'm in a different outfit" plus "I'm beaten." but speaker B chooses not to say so because first, it is redundant to say, "I'm in a different outfit." and second, speaker B here is probably expecting that speaker A can understand that speakerBfeels beaten.)
​A more vulgar version is よ, for example:今朝雨に降られちゃって*よ*、ずぶ濡れになっちまったよ。
​For this よ, because the speaker is so wild that I couldn't think of a situation where he starts to get much milder, care about the listener, saying, "you know".  Therefore, it is very likely that the speaker will almost always continue to say something.  This vulgar よ happens to somewhat close to English "yo" but in a totally different sense.  This is more or less why you could find a fair amount of よ in Japanese hip hop or rap music.

There is an interesting post from the perspective of a Western Japan dialect.  I am no native speaker of any Western Japan dialect so I could easily be wrong.  But I think in some reagions, な is used like this (most likely female):今朝雨に降られて*な*、ずぶ濡れになってしもうたよ。​I hope this helps..


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## Flaminius

Hi *akimura*,

Your examples seem to be either conjunctive (連用修飾: "drag" one's utterance into the next sentence/clause) or interruptive (連用中止: let the context express the obvious next sentence).  With all respect, I find neither applicable to the topic sentence: 人間を殺っちまったんでさ expresses an integral idea that does not rely on or allude to another.

Among definitions of さ, including the ones you have mentioned in your post, I find the following.


> 傍観的な、多少投げやりな調子で、あっさりと言い放す気持ちを表す。「好きなようにやればいいの―」「そう心配することはない―」


It is first and foremost a sentential modality particle (終助詞).

How about this, coming from a nihilistic serial killer?


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## akimura

Flaminius said:


> Your examples seem to be either conjunctive (連用修飾: "drag" one's utterance into the next sentence/clause) or interruptive (連用中止: let the context express the obvious next sentence).  With all respect, I find neither applicable to the topic sentence: 人間を殺っちまったんでさ expresses an integral idea that does not rely on or allude to another.



I would disagree, Flaminius-san.  Here is an example:ちょいと...人間を...殺っちまったんでさ、もう俺は終わりなんだよ。​In this example, ちょいと...人間を...殺っちまったんでさ is used to introduce a topic, and the conclusion もう俺は終わりなんだよ is the integral part of the sentence.

Following your interpretation of さ, I would say:
今朝雨に降られちゃって*さ *（連用修飾 or 連用中止）
今朝雨に降られちゃったので*さ *（連用修飾 or 連用中止）
 今朝雨に降られちゃったんで*さ *（連用修飾 or 連用中止）
ちょいと...人間を...殺っちまって*さ*　（連用修飾 or 連用中止）
 ちょいと...人間を...殺っちまったので*さ*　（連用修飾 or 連用中止） 
ちょいと...人間を...殺っちまったんで*さ*　（連用修飾 or 連用中止） : topic sentence
好きなようにやればいいので*さ*（連用修飾 or 連用中止） 
好きなようにやればいいんで*さ*（連用修飾 or 連用中止）
 そう心配することはないので*さ*（連用修飾 or 連用中止） 
そう心配することはないんでさ（連用修飾 or 連用中止） 
These examples fall into <*連用*形 + さ> <終止形 + ん（の）*で*さ> category (note: *で* in ん（の）で is the *連用形* of 助動詞 だ）, that's why these are *連用修飾* or *連用中止*. 

今朝雨に降られちゃったの*さ *（終助詞）
 今朝雨に降られちゃったん*さ *（終助詞） :Non-standard
今朝雨に降られちゃった*さ *（終助詞）　：Non-standard.  probably Okinawan usage at least. 
 ちょいと...人間を...殺っちまったの*さ* （終助詞）
ちょいと...人間を...殺っちまったん*さ* （終助詞） : Non-standard
ちょいと...人間を...殺っちまった*さ* （終助詞） : Non-standard, probably Okinawan usage at least.
好きなようにやればいいの*さ*（終助詞）
好きなようにやればいい*ん**さ*（終助詞） :Non-standard
好きなようにやればいい*さ*（終助詞）　
そう心配することはない*のさ*（終助詞）
そう心配することはない*んさ*（終助詞） :Non-standard
そう心配することはない*さ*（終助詞）
These examples fall into <*終止*形 + さ> or <*終止*形 + ん（の） + さ> category, that's why さ in these examples is *終*助詞.
​I hope this helps...


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## Starfrown

As per Flaminius' request, I'll give a little bit more context:

A: 侍......ですね

刀の臭いがしますよ......ここまでね

B: ......ちょいと人間を......殺っちまったんでさ......二年前に

A: 人斬り——ですか
おだやかでありませんな、これは

The manga begins in the 2nd year of the Tenmei era (1782). However, I think the author is known for throwing in modern colloquial language, so I don't know how much the historical setting will help.


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## Flaminius

*Starfrown*, thank you for your explanations!


> However, I think the author is known for throwing in modern colloquial language, so I don't know how much the historical setting will help.


I can see a few "archaisms" in the quoted portion already.  It's not that they spoke like that two hundred years ago (far more archaic, in fact), but it shows that the manga author uses artificial repertoires that reproduce old speeches to the extent that modern readers can still understand the meaning.

Now, *akimura*, the topic sentence concludes a remark in the context just given.  The sentence does continue to 二年前に but this is an additional piece of information that does not need to be outside the sentence.

You have said that さ in this sentence cannot be a 終助詞 because what immediately precedes it is not in 終止形 (conclusive form).  It is, however, a typical characteristic of Edo commoners' speech to use で as a concluding piece of a sentence.  At least it is how the Edo speech is conceived by modern authors.  I will give an example from 池波正太郎 below (「血頭の丹兵衛」):
「いまのおさむらいは?」
「なに、道中で連れになったお人で」
「そうかえ。どこまで行ってきなすったね?」

It's not limited to Ikemami, who just happened to be on my bookshelf.  Other authors frequently write, "さようで", "とんでもないことで" and so on.  These are clearly in 連用形 in terms of form but their function is conclusive.  One might perhaps regard them as contractions of polite conclusive forms such as でございます, です, でそうろう.  It is this make-shift conclusive form that I find 終助詞「さ」 attached to.


An alternative view to analyze でさ is the phonetic change below:
ですわ > でさあ > でさ
I have touched upon わ for a few posts above. Unfortunately, I could not find a dictionary entry for でさ but there is a parallel construction explained here.  The phonetic change involved is just about the same:
ますわ > まさあ > まさ
It is perhaps noteworthy that ま can be stranded just like で in historical Western dialects.
E.g., よろしゅうおま < よろしゅうおます
, where おます is cognate to ます.


I am not very hurried to find out which is the case.  After all, we might be very well dealing with a creative dialect that has no supporting evidence in reference works.  終助詞 is what authors often tweak in order to emphasize the fictitiousness of a character in creative works.  A carrot (ニンジン), for instance, would say, "好き嫌いは、だめだニン。ニンジンもしっかり食べるニン" in a story book.


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## akimura

Flaminius said:


> the topic sentence concludes a remark in the context just given.



Well, Flaminius-san, if you thinks that sentence concludes a remark, that's fine.  I could follow your conclusion.  But then, I just don't see any valid reason why you could conclude that the following does NOT conclude the remark with さ.A: どうして今、今朝と違う服きているの？
   Why are you in a different outfit now than this morning?
B: さっき雨に降られちゃって*さ*。​I just don't see any difference from the topic sentence.  If you see the topic sentence used as a conclusion, then I would say, さっき雨に降られちゃって*さ* would be clearly a conclusion.


Given that, I still read from the above example, さっき雨に降られちゃってさ、(that's why I'm in a different outfit now than this morning.) . So it connotates a sense of "you see, ..."  The conclusion is Person B is wearing a different outfit now than this morning, and the reasion is that Person B was caught in a rain this morning.

Now, similarlyA: 侍......ですね
刀の臭いがしますよ......ここまでね
B: ......ちょいと人間を......殺っちまったんでさ......二年前に​I clealy read the exact same point of mine, because it is telling you, ちょいと人間を殺っちまったんでさ、二年前に (that's why you smell a sword out there.)  So it connotates a sense of "you see, ..."  The conclusion is the smell, and the reason is that Person B killed a person two years ago.

I just don't see any difference on the baseline, both gramatically and contextually.

And, to me, the context may give an illusion that the 「んでさ」 form is achaic, but I must say as a native speaker of Japanese having lived in Tokyo, Kanagawa and other regions all in the Kanto area for quite a while now, this usage is quite common; or is it because I'm the one who's achaic?  Well, maybe, but I see junior high kids every day and they use it as well.  I wonder if Flaminius-san comes from a different region where this usage is very unusual.

Well, Flaminius-san has a point in that if you go to Google, and do a search with 「たんでさ」,  you'll get a lot of hits where web authors try to imitate a language from the Edo period, but you will also get tons of hits where just modern content are there.

Regional variations are always there.  When I meet a new person from a different region, we always encouter variations particularly in colloquial language, and I always get fascinated how differerent our language is from region to region.  I just don't get why Flaminius-san is so sure about the 「んでさ」 form is not a modern Japanese usage.  I thought I would just add a comment from a Japanese native speaker's point of view with my initial post.


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## Flaminius

akimura said:


> Given that, I still read from the above example, さっき雨に降られちゃってさ、(that's why I'm in a different outfit now than this morning.) . So it connotates a sense of "you see, ..."


I understand this sentence from your example conversation just as you do.  I feel a similar referencing-back in 殺っちまったんでさ but I think it is largely by virtue of the emphatic explanatory ん.  Our difference seems to be how to relate でさ to Modern Standard Japanese.  For me でさ is historical and/or dialectal.  Hmmm, I thought drawing the parallel with まさ would immediately convince you on this.     I am from Southern Kanto like you but I have neither heard nor read でさ in Modern Japanese.

If you say you see/hear it quite commonly, maybe you could share a few examples?  For a starter, I'd like to know if you can say さっき雨に降られちゃったんでさ as a response to どうして今、今朝と違う服きているの?


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## akimura

Flaminius said:


> I understand this sentence from your example conversation just as you do.  I feel a similar referencing-back in 殺っちまったんでさ but I think it is largely by virtue of the emphatic explanatory ん.



Flaminius-san has raised an issue of ん preceeding -でさ.  But my initial post has been intentded to address directly to the Starfrown-san's initial question about -でさ or -てさ.  And I'm relieved to hear that we are in agreement in the use of -でさ or -てさ.  So my initial post pretty much answered Starfrown-san's question regarding -でさ or -てさ.

I agree, as well, in that ん added to でさ gives a slightly different connotation.  In modern Japan, the following type of conversation could occur:

A: どうしても会社を辞めるの？
B: もう辞表が受理されちまったんでさ。

This type of conversation would probably occur in a drinking situation like in a bar, so I would admit that a situation may be quite limited.  But I meant it is quite common in response to the argument that it is totally archaic.  The usage may be rare because the situation may be rare.  Once we are in such a situation, we just use it, today.

More importantly, I strongly doubt that from 人を殺っちまったんでさ, any Japanese native speaker automatically gets a sense of "something from a distant past, like the Edo period".  At least, I didn't have no acahaic feeeling at all right until Starfrown-san gave the context information.  That clearly means, 人を殺っちまったんでさ could appear any time today, particularly in a TV drama depicting a modern Japan.

And I would think this would be enough to explain how the basic structure of -んでさ works.  Further analysis would pretty much about specific content, not the structure.


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## Flaminius

Just to check if I understand you alright, how do you analyze んでさ in もう辞表が受理されちまったんでさ?  Is it perhaps ので (> んで) + さ (some kind modality particle)?


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## akimura

Flaminius said:


> Just to check if I understand you alright, how do you analyze んでさ in もう辞表が受理されちまったんでさ?  Is it perhaps ので (> んで) + さ (some kind modality particle)?



Yes, んで in not only this example but also 人を殺っちまったんで, at least in modern language, is a derivative of ので.  I would say this argument would exactly have been applicable even without the context information which tells us that it's a modern fiction depicting some time from the Edo period.

It seems, though, that Flaminius-san would argue that -んでさ form is not in modern usage and try to provide a historical background of Japanese language.  Now that the context has been provided but since the middle of the discussion and it's about some time more than two hundred years ago, I wouldn't be surprised if Flaminius-san would argue that 人を殺っちまったんで in this specific context is different from the examples I have provided.  Maybe, because I have consistently talked about modern language.

The discussion seems to go nowhere unless the -んでさ  form is agreed to be modern or achaic.  I must admit that -んでさ form sounds a little wild, and I guess that very few women would choose to use this type of language.

Maybe I have grown up surrounded by people who might use this type of language.  Maybe Flaminius-san has grown up surrounded by people who would never use this type of language and seen and heard only in historical novels and TV dramas.  If these are the case, it starts to make complete sense that the -んでさ form is totally achaic to Flaminius-san.

I wouldn't mind if I might be labeled a user of a wild language.  But I could tell that people around me and I are living pieces of evidence that have used this type of language, today.


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## Flaminius

*akimura*さん、こんばんは。



> Yes, んで in not only this example but also 人を殺っちまったんで, at least in modern language, is a derivative of ので.


This certainly clears a lot of things!  Even if what I will say below does not contribute to cast more light on the んでさ in the topic sentence, I am more at ease now that I have a firmer understanding of how I got my judgements.

ので (> んで) is a clause-linkage marker (接続助詞) that indicates that the first clause is the cause, evidence, reason for the second clause.  I could not see this particle in the topic sentence because, to my mind, ので (or the contracted, more casual んで) cannot go along with さ; hence my inclination was to find alternative accounts on the assumption that it must be a historical and/or fictitious form.

Why do have have issues with さ being combined with ので?  My experience with Japanese must have more than a fair share of influence on this, but here is a little something I found as a basis for a more objective explanation.  A dictionary holds that ので has a formal timbre to it, especially in comparison with から, another linkage marker indicating causal relations:


> 近世中ごろから用いられ、明治に入って一般化した。また、前件が理由となって後件のような結果の生じることが、だれの目から見ても当然と思われるような場合に用いられるとされる。「から」に比べるとあらたまった感じを伴うが、くだけた表現の場合、「あまり暑いんで閉口した」のように「んで」となることもある



Modality particles such as ね, よ, わ, さ are usually for casual speech.  Some particles are possible in formal speeches but the general tendency is that, the more formal an utterance is, the less modality particles can be used.  I admit I use から all the time; reserving ので for more formal conversations and written communications.  It follows that ので for me is considerably more formal than から.  This perceived formalness raises a red flag at the back of my head when I see ので combined with さ.  It looks as if two different formality levels are being at collision with each other.


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