# Corrections



## FRENFR

Having aided a fellow member with an English project, I had it removed by a moderator.  Having understood the agreed rule of the mods regarding this matter, I'd like to give my 2 cents worth.

It is a student's responsiblity to be mature and honest as to how they deal with corrections.  It should not be implemented in rules, as the corrections of texts are very VERY useful to other people reading through it.

If the student I helped did in fact print my corrections and hand them in as his own work, he is only doing himself damage in learning - but as far as we are concerened, our help as teachers/language professionals, or just general kindness should not be restricted due to the UNKNOWN use of a/the source text.

Therefore, I propose that the particular rule be altered to indicate that Word Reference, nor it's particular member(s) who aided a text correction be responsible for the adverse affects their help will have/could have on the failure or "real" progress and "honest level abilities" of the person asking for corrections.  People must be encouraged to make their own decisions and deal with things as they should, maturely, and professionally, see fit, and not have this "dreamed-up" idea that they will use help from us here at WR to wrongly progress within their education/career.  (That really is nothing to do with us, but the help nonetheless, could help an innocent passer-by).

In my field of work, I'm expected to know pretty much everything, about as much as I can - yet I still learn French things here.  I look at people's corrections, give my own, and many people learn across the board.  Just because a text is significantly big, or for school, as I have said, should not change the fact that students ask for help - it is their responsibity to treat it (the corrections) with care and honest attention.

Just as with products in every day life, like cars!  If a person cannot drive a powerful car, yet wants to buy one, the garage cannot decline a sale - it is out of their hands what the buyer does with it, and, as we all know as being mature people, we treat things with care, attention, and act maturely.  If this person goes off a corner at 180mph, then that's not the fault of the garage.  If a WR student asks for correction, like mine, and hands it in and ends up in a level far too good for him, he will find out the hard way that his lack of mature handling has gone against him when he finds himself swamped by language abilities he cannot handle.  

I therefore, for the last time suggest, that the rule be changed or altered, with my couple of cents worth in mind.  

Please, comments welcome.  FRENFR.


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## maxiogee

FRENFR said:
			
		

> Therefore, I propose that the particular rule be altered to indicate that Word Reference, nor it's particular member(s) who aided a text correction be responsible for the adverse affects their help will have/could have on the failure or "real" progress and "honest level abilities" of the person asking for corrections.



I disagree.
WordReference is about more than just our forums. It is a commercial enterprise and needs to be able to stand over anything done in its name. If two language students are discussing translations and one says "I used Word Reference, but they don't stand over their work" it could be taken to mean that the dictionaries are not trustworthy — that could have horrific consequences for the business, and ultimately for the forum. Better not to put the name of a business concern to anything it cannot stand over.


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## FRENFR

I was unaware it was a commercial eneterprise.  How do we know that? 

I still hope you understand my point on the whole, nonetheless.


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## maxiogee

FRENFR said:
			
		

> I was unaware it was a commercial eneterprise.  How do we know that?



I don't know how I heard, I thought it was in the rules/faq, but it's not. I know it was mentioned in several threads but I can't be sure where.



> I still hope you understand my point on the whole, nonetheless.


Yes, I do. I have felt that it is best that enquirers would get as much input as they can (though that can be a two-edged sword), when they seek assistance. However, there is nothing to stop them asking for direct, personal help.


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## Philippa

FRENFR said:
			
		

> I was unaware it was a commercial eneterprise.  How do we know that?


Mike's dictionaries certainly are - look at this thread: how is this site funded? 


			
				maxiogee said:
			
		

> WordReference is about more than just our forums. It is a commercial enterprise and needs to be able to *stand over *anything done in its name. If two language students are discussing translations and one says "I used Word Reference, but they don't *stand over *their work" it could be taken to mean that the dictionaries are not trustworthy — that could have horrific consequences for the business, and ultimately for the forum. Better not to put the name of a business concern to anything it cannot *stand over*.


Maxiogee, what do you mean by 'stand over'? Is it this? stand over - to watch or supervise closely?

Saludos
Philippa


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## Kelly B

The topic has been discussed at length.


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## GenJen54

FRENFR, 

I realize you are a very fairly recent member to these forums. 

This rule is not a long-standing one. In fact, it was introduced only a few weeks before your arrival after several months' discussion between moderators and among forer@s. (Please see thread provided by Kelly B). It was a solution to what had been a very long-standing problem, as well as ethical dilemma for our forum administrator, who provides these forums free of charge.

While I agree in principle that students should ultimately be responsible for their own work, the fact of the matter is, many are not. Keeping in mind that the dictionaries of Word Reference (to which the forums are aligned) are, in part, a commercial enterprise, we must do our utmost to maintain a high ethical standard. 

Providing people with assistance who are then using that work as a misrepresentation of their own abilities is not ethical in the least. 

Further, I might kindly suggest you refer to the rules of Word Reference. Anything posted in these Forums becomes the property of Word Reference, and in posting here, you are granting Word Reference permission to retain your post in its databases in perpetuity. If that post is against Word Reference rules, the post still remains the property of Word Reference, even though it is no longer for public display.

I hope this helps clarify the matter.


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## maxiogee

Philippa said:
			
		

> Maxiogee, what do you mean by 'stand over'? Is it this? stand over - to watch or supervise closely?



Hi Philippa,
No, it is neither of those.
"To stand over" means to , eh, eh, I'm stunned. I went to my dictionaries for endorsement of my opinion on this and found it is not there - in any of them.

I use it to mean "put one's name to", "stand by". I'm flabbergasted that it is not given.
Perhaps it is an Irishism - because I know I have grown up hearing it used in this way.


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## FRENFR

All understood, people.


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## cuchuflete

maxiogee said:
			
		

> Hi Philippa,
> No, it is neither of those.
> "To stand over" means to , eh, eh, I'm stunned. I went to my dictionaries for endorsement of my opinion on this and found it is not there - in any of them.
> 
> I use it to mean "put one's name to", "stand by". I'm flabbergasted that it is not given.
> Perhaps it is an Irishism - because I know I have grown up hearing it used in this way.


The AE equivalent, I think, is "stand behind".


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## Moogey

I actually agree with FRENFR in that is it solely the responsibility of the user to act maturely and that it's not our job to impose that on them. Telling them that we will not help them with their homework will _*not*_ deter them from cheating-- they will only learn when they do cheat and find out what they've done. It is after they make the mistake and realize what they've done to themselves that they will not do it again and _*learn*_ from it, not after being told off by members on a site.

It's somewhat like the principle of one of my teacher's teaching style. There was a girl in one of my classes that always slept. He never bothered her or yelled at her; he let her sleep. I know his logic was exactly this: *you want to sleep, go ahead, but wait until you see your report card!* (and wait until you find out you just cheated yourself out of this education later on in life when you need it!)

Edit: I do, however, see the validity in the idea that if their intentions are to learn the language, they should at least provide an attempt to their translation first, but sometimes people just have absolutely no idea whatsoever. Well, these are my ideas, make of them what you will.

-M


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## FRENFR

The chap I helped had written an entire article, so his attempt was about, for him, perhaps one hour at least of work.  Just miffed me a bit thats all.  But rules are rules...hence my post here to understand it more and voice myself a little.

However, thank you for the vote of support.  Shan't be changing anything but at least this individual in question got my help before it was deleted and informed me it was not for school and was for personal use.  

Such is life...

Something that just came to mind.  Could a "terms and conditions" official-type document be read and signed (digitally) for those requesting help on school/employment based progress source texts, which says that WR does not have any responsibility for the use and insured results from a member correction such a source text?  I can't see how a simple document, written in various languages (FR, EN, ES, PO, IT, DE etc) would be a big stress once agreed upon.  

Something like (and very quick and informally):

"If you ask for help on school work or work related promotional works, use the corrections provided maturely, and do not in any way blame your future difficulties on WR as it is only mature and sensible to ask for help to aid yourself and not to portray yourself as something you are not".

As I say; would help alot more people be able to see real corrections by native people.  Thinking more about it, maybe have a special forum, of which members must sign this particular document, which might involve an e-mail, pre-written, describing the conditions.  Sounds like an effort, but this is a big website.  Eve charge a dollar for corrections, which goes into the WR fund, despite members making the corrections.

Fair is fair?  Just trying to improve things thats all.  What do you think?


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## panjandrum

I speak as one who has been abused in this context. I use the word *abused* deliberately.

I think it is wrong, dishonest, deceitful, for someone to use my advice in order to mis-represent himself as a fluent English speaker.  I would not lie in a reference for someone.  I would not write a section of course work for a student.  And I will not connive with someone in this forum to deceive an employer or an academic institution - or indeed anyone else.

You may consider that it is entirely for the student, the applicant, to decide whether or not to engage in such deceit.  

I disagree.


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## cuchuflete

Before there were any moderators, I was an active forero, who despised dishonesty and did not support it or tolerate others who, knowingly, or out of good-hearted naivete, aided it.  Now, with the additional responsibility of being a member of the moderator team, I am dedicated to these forums as a place of mutual support and mutual instruction.  Cheating on employment applications and schoolwork lies beyond my personal definition of mutual instruction and support. 

When we were drafting the homework rule, all of the mods involved first agreed to encouraging learning, and only after that unanimous pact wrote the first draft regarding homework exclusions.  We want these forums to be a place to which teachers may send their students with enthusiasm.  We are all, by former or current profession, or by amateur dedication, teachers.  We do a student no favor at all by facilitating falsehoods. Yes, they will eventually pay, and maybe even learn a hard lesson, if we abet dishonesty.  Why not remove the chance of that happening? 

Those who say, rightly, that a cheater will get caught and punished may be inadvertantly advocating for short-term successes at the price of longer-term failures.  I prefer that we set an example by our tens of thousands of helpful posts, together with our public dedication to the value of honestly seeking advice, without any intent to deceive.


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## panjabigator

Is it this a big issue?  Are students posting assignments and having the entire thing translated?


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## GenJen54

panjabigator said:
			
		

> re students posting assignments and having the entire thing translated?


 There have been some attempts to achieve this, yes. In most cases, students provide at least some semblance of their own "work," then ask for _*copious*_ corrections from members before handing the corrected work in as their own. Others have been bold enough to copy and paste quiz prep questions and homework assignments (fill-in-the-blank and matching), then ask for members to complete these assignments for them.

We have also had members ask to review/rewrite work that was to be submitted for a "proficiency exam" at their workplace.

After putting up with these types of questions for some time, and then several months' discussion on the topic, the rules were put into place (about two months ago). 

In short: 

-It is *not fair* for members to spend their time doing other people's work. 
-It is *not fair* to the teachers who are grading certain students' work based upon the efforts of others. 
-It is *not fair* to other students, most of whom are hopefully getting by without resorting to asking others to complete their assignments.
- It is *not fair* to employers, who are paying for certain abilities their workers may or may not have have.

While others may argue that students should learn this lesson the hard way, I think that by *not *allowing this type of cheating to go on (and that is what it is, cheating), these students may find that they cannot always find an "easy way out." At least not here.

As for whether this has been a big issue, please read the link to the thread as provided in Kelly B's post, #6, above.


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## Moogey

I'm learning Italian and I had to do homework assignments sometimes called "tema" where you get to write about just about whatever you want. I'd write what I wanted to write in English and then I completely translated it into Italian as best I could. Had I not been a part of this site, I would have just then handed it in, but because I really do want to learn Italian, not just hand in papers and get good grades, I would post my work and have the Italians check me. I would fix my work to a degree from what the natives corrected. I would correct it if 1. I understood the logic behind it and I could've figured it out maybe if I really thought about it AND 2. It's not something way out of my league that would make it obvious to the teacher I had some help. But the main point is I used this forum to learn. Would you support this? Nobody ever seemed to have a problem with my pratice, unlike they have in the more obvious cases ("Would you please do my homework for me?")-- I, at least, completely and fully do my homework first before posting.

-M


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## maxiogee

Moogey said:
			
		

> It's somewhat like the principle of one of my teacher's teaching style. There was a girl in one of my classes that always slept. He never bothered her or yelled at her; he let her sleep. I know his logic was exactly this: *you want to sleep, go ahead, but wait until you see your report card!* (and wait until you find out you just cheated yourself out of this education later on in life when you need it!)



I think that teacher was failing in his duty to the pupil!
I think his "style" was despicable.
He had a duty of care towards that student, and he neglected it.
Someone, somewhere was paying him to teach her, and he took that money.
Should he not have spoken to her to enquire why she was always asleep?
Should he not have spoken to her and explained what she obviously didn't realise - but you did?
Should he not have been a real teacher - one who is concerned for their students?
The guy's a disgrace.


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## FRENFR

Yes that was disgraceful.  And just to nibble the bait, I am quite sure he said one or two words to her before giving up.  Nonetheless, not the best course of action.

I picked out 2 important lines from the above posts and they are as follows:

Cuchuflete: Yes, they will eventually pay, and maybe even learn a hard lesson, if we abet dishonesty. *Why not remove the chance of that happening? <-- *Good point.

GenJen54:  I think that by *not *allowing this type of cheating to go on (and that is what it is, cheating), these students may find that *they cannot always find an "easy way out.*"  <-- Good point.

I'm off to work!


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## Moogey

Well that may be true, but I will say this. The course was a required Italian course and I can *guarantee you without a doubt in my mind *that girl didn't want to Italian-- and wasn't going to learn it no matter what. I guarantee you she _only_ took that course to fulfill the requirements to graduate. Sometimes he would call on her out of her sleep and he did make a speech one day that if you want to not pay attention, wait until you see your report card. Perhaps I'm not representing his view of things well.

Now, on the other hand, in Italian 3 this past year (which was elective), he wouldn't tolerate any of that. He would say "You chose this course, and if you don't want to cooperate, I'll have you removed". It's different because this was elective so we actually want to learn the language. He would tell us how many people that graduated would write him back saying "I wish I were _forced _to learn another language" and he would say "Well you can't force someone to learn a language. That's your part of the dea!" (or something to that effect. He's right, I can't force anyone to learn anything!)

If it were a math course, for example, I'm sure he would've woken her up because you really need to know that in life...

-M


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