# Masjid - Mosque



## MarX

Indonesian:
*masjid *or *mesjid*

German:
(die) *Moschee*


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## jazyk

In Portuguese:
mesquita


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## Outsider

In Spanish:
mezquita

In French:
mosquée


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## sound shift

In Turkish:
cami


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## Tamar

In Hebrew: מסגד misgad


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## Frank06

Hi,

In *Dutch*: moskee

Groetjes,

Frank


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## avok

sound shift said:


> In Turkish:
> cami


In Turkish, there are two words "*mescit*" and "*cami*". I guess "mescit" is smaller then "cami". It's interesting to see that the other words in the thread are related to "mescit" but not to "cami"

The origin of "cami" is :


> ~ *Ar *cāmic [#cmc fa.] 1. toplayan, bir araya getiren, 2. cuma mescidi " cem1


"c:dj" (the pronunciation)

Wikipedia:


> The word "mosque" in English refers to all types of buildings dedicated for Islamic worship, although there is a distinction in Arabic between the smaller, privately owned mosque and the larger, "collective" mosque (Arabic: جامع‎, _masjid jāmiʕ_), which has more community and social amenities.


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## suma

I pretty certain that Turkish cami comes from the other Arabic word for a large mosque: jaami3


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## Mahaodeh

In Arabic it is: مسجد Masjid; جامع Jami'; and مصلى Musalla. It's not about size as much as it's about type of use; all are for prayer, the Musalla is merely a place where one prayes occasionally and no mass prayer is conducted except when people chose to do so. The Jami' is a Masjid where the Juma'a prayer (Friday Prayer) is conducted. A Masjid is where the daily 5 prayers are conducted regardless of whether the Friday prayer is conducted in it or not.


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## MarX

The word *musolla* also exists in Indonesian. It means a place where one can do a prayer. I guess similar to _chapel._
The words *Jumat* (=Friday) and *Jemaat*, which means fellowship (of Christians) or the body/members of the church, also exist. But I can't remember the use of the word *Jami'*.


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## rocamadour

Hi! 
In italiano:
(la) *moschea* [plur. (le) *moschee*]


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## Nizo

In Esperanto:  *moskeo*.


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## dudasd

Serbian: 
*džamija *(< Tr. *cami *< Ar. *ğāmi*)
also: *mesdžid, mečit, mečet *(in more religious contexts)


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## blue_jewel

In *Filipino/Tagalog: *Moske


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## OldAvatar

Romanian:
moschee, geamie


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## MarX

Makasih banyak buat jawabannya!
Thanks a lot for the replies so far!

Is *mosque*, *Moschee*, etc. in European languages related to *masjid* etymologically?
Dear Mod, if your think this should be moved to another forum, be my guest.


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## rocamadour

Hi MarX! 
I've just had a look at my etymological dictionary and, as concerns Italian, the word *moschea* (present in our language in this form since XV century) arrived through Spanish _mezquita_ (coming from Arabic *masğid*): Dante used the word _meschita_ at the beginning of XIV century.


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## MarX

Thanks Rocamadour!

So the pronunciation as J (as in *masjid*, *mesdžid*, etc.) and K (as in *mosque*, *moschea*, *mezquita*, etc.) are just variations of the *ğ* in *masğid*?


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## rocamadour

I really don't know... I just suppose *masğid* is the modern international transcription of the Arabic word (but I'm not sure at all...). Let's wait for some experts...


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## vikicka

Macedonian:  Џамија


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## avok

In Turkey, we don't call typical big mosques as "mescit", typical mosques are always "cami", but a smaller area reserved for prayers in a shopping mall, for instance, is a "mescit" not a cami. But the Arabians use "Mescit" even for a big mosque as in :"Masjid-i Aksa" . The literal translation in Turkish would be "En Uzaktaki *Cami" *not mescit.


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## MarX

Apparently what you call "mescit" in Turkey is something that we'd call "musolla" in Indonesian, whereas *cami* = *masjid*.


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## kusurija

In Czech:
Mešita

In Lithuanian:
Mečetė


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## Saluton

Russian: мечеть (mech*e*t').


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## apmoy70

sound shift said:


> In Turkish:
> cami...


...from which Greek borrows the name for mosque, *«τζαμί»* [ʣ͜aˈmi] (neut.)


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## Dymn

*Catalan*: _mesquita_


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## franknagy

*Hungarian:  *mecset.


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## nimak

vikicka said:


> Macedonian:  Џамија





sound shift said:


> In Turkish:
> cami



The Turkish word cami ['d͡ʒami] is the root for the Macedonian џамија (džamija) ['d͡ʒamija] _fem. -> pl._ џамии (džamii) ['d͡ʒamii]


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## franknagy

What is the difference between a *mashid* (Hun. "mecset") and a *djami* (Hun. "dzsámi")?


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## Awwal12

franknagy said:


> What is the difference between a *mashid* (Hun. "mecset") and a *djami* (Hun. "dzsámi")?


The first is an Arabic word for a mosque in general (masjid, i.e. "~the place of bowing down"). The second one is an Arabic word for a big, congregational mosque (ja:miʕ - "~a collecting one", also used in other meanings; cf. Rus. "соборная мечеть").


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## franknagy

Awwal12 said:


> The first is an Arabic word for a mosque in general (masjid, i.e. "~the place of bowing down"). The second one is an Arabic word for a big, congregational mosque (ja:miʕ - "~a collecting one", also used in other meanings; cf. Rus. "соборная мечеть").


Thank you, Awwal12, for the answer.

[moderator note: Off-topic question and request deleted. Cherine]


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## Circunflejo

Outsider said:


> In Spanish:
> mezquita



There's also aljama although that one is just used on historical texts. The aljama was the main mosque of a town.


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## Derakhshan

In Middle and Classical Persian it was _*mazgit*_.

I believe the reason many of these words are pronounced with a [g] like in Persian and in Hebrew _misgad_ or [k] in Spanish _mezquita_ is because Arabic speakers of those times pronounced ج as [g].


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## Awwal12

Derakhshan said:


> In Middle and Classical Persian it was _*mazgit*_.
> 
> I believe the reason many of these words are pronounced with a [g] like in Persian and in Hebrew _misgad_ or [k] in Spanish _mezquita_ is because Arabic speakers of those times pronounced ج as [g].


"Misgad" is merely a calque, formed from the Hebrew verb "sagad".
Persian and Spanish do reflect an older mainstream pronunciation in Arabic (though in certain dialects it must have been d͡ʒ already by the VII century).


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## Armas

Finnish: _moskeija_.


apmoy70 said:


> ...from which Greek borrows the name for mosque, *«τζαμί»* [ʣ͜aˈmi] (neut.)


Isn't τέμενος also used for mosque?


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## ThomasK

Mahaodeh said:


> In Arabic it is: مسجد Masjid; جامع Jami'; and مصلى Musalla. It's not about size as much as it's about type of use; all are for prayer, the Musalla is merely a place where one prayes occasionally and no mass prayer is conducted except when people chose to do so.


Could you tell us about the meaning of "mosque" and maybe he others? I was once told that ma refers to a place (madrasj, magazin in French, etc.), but then: what kind of activity is sj-d? Is it worshipping, or bowing? I guess so, but...


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## Mahaodeh

ThomasK said:


> I was once told that ma refers to a place (madrasj, magazin in French, etc.)


It's not ma by itself, it's the form of the word; but yes, it creates a place name out of the root. The Arabic of the words you gave are madrasa from the root d-r-s (the a is the feminine marker), and makhzan from the root kh-z-n (makhaazin for the plural from which magazine is borrowed).



ThomasK said:


> but then: what kind of activity is sj-d?


The root s-j-d has several meanings, most prominent among them is to prostrate oneself, that is, to sit on your knees, bend down and put your forehead on the ground. It's one of the actions done during ritual prayer and the word can be used sometimes to refer to ritual prayer (as opposed to only speaking to God). Hence masjid is 'the place of prostration' or 'the place of ritual prayer'. It refers to any place that is set for communal prayer whether there is a building or not. In modern times it mostly refers to a specific building.


ThomasK said:


> Could you tell us about the meaning of "mosque" and maybe he others?


Jaami' follows a different form, one that is commonly (although not exclusively) used to create active participles. It comes from the root j-m-' meaning 'to gather', 'to bring together', 'to collect'. I'm not sure how to translate it, but the closest meaning would be 'the gatherer'. It refers specifically to a mosque where Friday prayers are held.

Musalla is from the root s-l-a using the place form (similar to masjid, it seems different because the third radical is a long vowel so the rules are a bit different). The root mainly means to pray - any type of prayer. The word means 'the place of prayer'. As a place it's used mostly in two senses: one, the prayer hall inside the mosque, and two, a room left specifically for prayer inside a secular building (example, a mall or an office building).

PS: I'm sorry if this is longer or shorter than you wanted, I wasn't sure about the level of detail you are asking about.


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## ThomasK

This is very interesting information, thanks. But one last question: is the s-j-d root strictly religious? I suppose so, but I wonder because the French, English, German, Dutch are based on a form of  asking that has developed into a strictly religious meaning...


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## fdb

masjid is generally taken to be a loan word from Aramaic. See:

The Foreign Vocabulary Of The Quran : Jeffery,Arthur. : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

pages 263 sqq.


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## Mahaodeh

ThomasK said:


> But one last question: is the s-j-d root strictly religious? I suppose so, but I wonder because the French, English, German, Dutch are based on a form of asking that has developed into a strictly religious meaning


No, the root is not strictly religious, even the verb sajada is only religious when used in a religious context. The verb describes the physical action regardless of the purpose of such action.
There are other words in the root that have nothing to do with religion.


fdb said:


> masjid is generally taken to be a loan word from Aramaic. See:


The source doesn't claim that masjid is a loanword, it's clearly an Arabic formation. Your source claims that the root itself is Aramaic. I wasn't convinced, mainly because his only proof is that the root exists in Aramaic (if he had further proof, he didn't really mention it), which doesn't mean much since both languages are Semitic and there are many shared roots between them. He even admits to pre-Islamic and non-religious uses of the root!


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## ThomasK

ONe last question if I may: what other words based on s-j-d could you mention? I am interested in some only, not in the whole list...


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## Mahaodeh

OK, the verb that describes a droopy eyelid is asjadat.
A lion's posture when it sits is called sujuud. 
A palm tree that is leaning due to the weight of it's fruit is described as saajida.

Most of words not related to prostration are Classical and many of which are obsolete today, or at least archaic. However, at least one that I can think of was derived from prostration but today has lost all relation to that meaning barring it's etymology: it's sajjaada meaning carpet/rug.


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## ThomasK

Excellent, thanks!


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## fdb

Mahaodeh said:


> No, the root is not strictly religious, even the verb sajada is only religious when used in a religious context. The verb describes the physical action regardless of the purpose of such action.
> There are other words in the root that have nothing to do with religion.
> 
> The source doesn't claim that masjid is a loanword, it's clearly an Arabic formation. Your source claims that the root itself is Aramaic. I wasn't convinced, mainly because his only proof is that the root exists in Aramaic (if he had further proof, he didn't really mention it), which doesn't mean much since both languages are Semitic and there are many shared roots between them. He even admits to pre-Islamic and non-religious uses of the root!



He quotes the form msgdʼ in old Aramaic inscriptions.


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## Awwal12

At any rate, it probably would be more correct to call "masjid" a calque, since neither the root s-j-d nor the model maCCiC are alien to Arabic.


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