# Classical Arabic: city



## zj73

Hi,

What is the difference between مدينة and بلدة and قرية and 
بلد? They all mean city.


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## Mahaodeh

Classical Arabic or MSA or dialects?

In the time of Classical Arabic there was really no classification of human settlements, so المدينة and القرية referred to the same thing, which, based on today’s classifications, could be a metropolis, a city, a town, or a village. It’s generally understood to have at least some permanent structures.

بلد refers to a specific land, it can be small enough for a hamlet or large enough for a state or country. The land may be built (city, town…etc.), rural (farmland, pastures, orchards…etc.), or neither (wilderness, forests…etc.) or a mixture of these.

بلدة is a small part of البلد.

In MSA المدينة refers to a city, القرية refers to a village or something smaller, البلد refers to a country or independent state (not a state that is part of a country, that would be ولاية), and البلدة refers to a twon.

In most dialects it’s more or less like MSA, except that some dialects use بلد to refer to hamlets, sometimes even villages.


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## bearded

I've  read somewhere that the word مصر (besides meaning ''Egypt'') could originally also mean ''large city/metropolis'' - and now of course the city of Cairo in particular. 
 Is that true?


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## Hemza

bearded said:


> I've  read somewhere that the word مصر (besides meaning ''Egypt'') could originally also mean ''large city/metropolis'' - and now of course the city of Cairo in particular.
> Is that true?


To my knowledge, مصر/أمصار means the high wall(s) that protect a city from invasions and in Cairo (or the Arab newly founded capital of Egypt الفسطاط) these walls are still (?) standing till this day. I think that many other cities which were founded (sometimes over previous existing cities) by Arab settlers were protected by high walls like البصرة or الزبير in Iraq (not sure which one) as well as بغداد later, القيروان in Tunisia, فاس in Morocco etc (amongst others) because they were first military camps (sometimes hosting the central power) which had to be protected.

Ps: I think walls in Damascus and some other cities (probably Jerusalem as well) are even older.


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## Mahaodeh

Hemza said:


> To my knowledge, مصر/أمصار means the high wall(s) that protect a city from invasions


I didn’t find anything to support this in Classical dictionaries. They say that المصر هو الحاجز بين الشيئين, so perhaps when translating to English it became “partition” or “divider” which some may have understood as walls.
However, of the other meanings of مصر is الحدّ meaning “boundary” or “curb” or “edge”.

According to لسان العرب:
وقال الليث: المِصْر في كلام العرب كل كُورة تقام فيها الحُدود ويقسم فيها الفيءُ والصدَقاتُ من غير مؤامر للخليفة
Of course he explains the meaning of the word in much more detail so I find that Al Laith’s definition is his own and does not reflect the etymology or even the exact meaning in CA. 

According to Arabic Wikipedia, the root may have meant “land” in Proto-Semitic. However, according to English Wikipedia (which I trust more), the earliest attested meaning was in Akkadian meaning “border” or “frontier”. I am more inclined to go with this one as it seems to be in line with the Arabic meaning of حدّ, it also explains why only newly built cities built by military commanders at the last location they took over were called أمصار - it seems to me that they were built on the frontier or the edge of the land. As the state expands they no longer become أمصار.

By the way, الكورة in CA is a human settlement mostly used for rural (not bedouin) hamlets but can refer to the center or main village for such hamlets. Mostly but obviously not exclusively.


Hemza said:


> protected by high walls like البصرة or الزبير in Iraq (not sure which one) as well as بغداد later,


البصرة was a مصر, but not الزبير. While it is around the same age it was not actually built as a city at all, it just started as a rural settlement and remained a village until the early 20th century actually.

I don’t recall ever reading or hearing that Baghdad was referred to as مصر, it was called مدينة المنصور and المدينة المدورّة and دار السلام (latter is the official name that never really stuck), so it was specifically referred to as مدينة since it’s inception.


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## Hemza

Mahaodeh said:


> I didn’t find anything to support this in Classical dictionaries. They say that المصر هو الحاجز بين الشيئين, so perhaps when translating to English it became “partition” or “divider” which some may have understood as walls.
> However, of the other meanings of مصر is الحدّ meaning “boundary” or “curb” or “edge”.
> According to لسان العرب:
> وقال الليث: المِصْر في كلام العرب كل كُورة تقام فيها الحُدود ويقسم فيها الفيءُ والصدَقاتُ من غير مؤامر للخليفة
> Of course he explains the meaning of the word in much more detail so I find that Al Laith’s definition is his own and does not reflect the etymology or even the exact meaning in CA.
> 
> According to Arabic Wikipedia, the root may have meant “land” in Proto-Semitic. However, according to English Wikipedia (which I trust more), the earliest attested meaning was in Akkadian meaning “border” or “frontier”. I am more inclined to go with this one as it seems to be in line with the Arabic meaning of حدّ, it also explains why only newly built cities built by military commanders at the last location they took over were called أمصار - it seems to me that they were built on the frontier or the edge of the land. As the state expands they no longer become أمصار.


Now you say it, I think I may have confused it with سور/أسوار.
مصر/أمصار is as I've been taught, the military camp and not the wall. I don't know why I confused both.



Mahaodeh said:


> البصرة was a مصر, but not الزبير. While it is around the same age it was not actually built as a city at all, it just started as a rural settlement and remained a village until the early 20th century actually.


Thank you.


Mahaodeh said:


> I don’t recall ever reading or hearing that Baghdad was referred to as مصر, it was called مدينة المنصور and المدينة المدورّة and دار السلام (latter is the official name that never really stuck), so it was specifically referred to as مدينة since it’s inception.


I didn't mean that بغداد used to be called مصر but rather that it used to be encircled by walls, wasn't it? Again, I confused مصر with سور I think.


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## rarabara

zj73 said:


> Hi,
> 
> What is the difference between مدينة and بلدة and قرية and
> بلد? They all mean city.


to my existing knowledge (if I do not confuse),

قرية : means village.
مدينة: means city.
بلد: means state.

I have no idea for بلدة but we use the Turkish form of this word (i.e. in Turkish) this means a name of location which is larger than village but smaller than a city.

(a notation: I remember one of that word as  مدين  (i.e. masculine) and the plural form of this word is  مُدُن  )


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## Abu Talha

Mahaodeh said:


> In the time of Classical Arabic there was really no classification of human settlements, so المدينة and القرية referred to the same thing, which, based on today’s classifications, could be a metropolis, a city, a town, or a village. It’s generally understood to have at least some permanent structures.


There seems to be some indication of a distinction, at least in some contexts. From لسان العرب for قرية:



and for مدن:




So perhaps when a distinction is intended then a قرية is a general human settlement, while a مدينة is a fortified settlement.


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## Mahaodeh

Abu Talha said:


> So perhaps when a distinction is intended then a قرية is a general human settlement, while a مدينة is a fortified settlement.


 No. It was identical. Note this:
وَاضْرِبْ لَهُمْ مَثَلًا أَصْحَابَ الْقَرْيَةِ إِذْ جَاءَهَاالْمُرْسَلُونَ - ١٣ يس
 وَجَاءَ رَجُلٌ مِنْ أَقْصَى الْمَدِينَةِ يَسْعَىٰ - ٢٠ يس
—-
فَانْطَلَقَا حَتَّىٰ إِذَا أَتَيَا أَهْلَ قَرْيَةٍ اسْتَطْعَمَا أَهْلَهَا - ٧٧ الكهف
وَأَمَّا الْجِدَارُ فَكَانَ لِغُلَامَيْنِ يَتِيمَيْنِ فِي الْمَدِينَةِ - ٨٢ الكهف
The first two are talking about the same city, the second are about another city but also the same one.

There is other evidence, and not only from the Quran. As for the the definitions you gave, these were centuries later, when a distinction was established. Having said that, he contradicts himself several times when he says:
القَرْية والقِرْية لغتان المصر الجامع؛ التهذيب: المكسورة يمانية
Then says:
والقَرْية المساكن والأَبنية والضِّياع وتطلق على المدن
And then:
وفي الحديث: أُمِرْت بقَرْية تأْكل القُرى؛ وهي مدينة الرسول صلى الله عليه وسلم، ومعنى أَكلها القرى ما يُفتح على أَيدي أَهلها من المدن ويصيبون من غَنائمها
Also:
وقول بعضهم: ما رأَي قَرَوِيّاً أَفصَح من الحجاج إِنما نسبه إِلى القرية التي هي المصر
That specific statement also contradicts other classical dictionaries such as القاموس المحيط.


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## Romeel

rarabara said:


> to my existing knowledge (if I do not confuse),
> 
> قرية : means village.
> مدينة: means city.
> بلد: means state.


This exactly the same in Arabic today...




rarabara said:


> I have no idea for بلدة but we use the Turkish form of this word (i.e. in Turkish) this means a name of location which is larger than village but smaller than a city.


I think this also true in Arabic today


rarabara said:


> (a notation: I remember one of that word as  مدين  (i.e. masculine) and the plural form of this word is  مُدُن  )


مدْين كذلك اسم مدينة لقبيلة الأيكة مذكورة في القرآن  وتقع شمال الجزيرة العربية


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## WadiH

Mahaodeh said:


> I am more inclined to go with this one as it seems to be in line with the Arabic meaning of حدّ, it also explains why only newly built cities built by military commanders at the last location they took over were called أمصار - it seems to me that they were built on the frontier or the edge of the land. As the state expands they no longer become أمصار.
> 
> By the way, الكورة in CA is a human settlement mostly used for rural (not bedouin) hamlets but can refer to the center or main village for such hamlets. Mostly but obviously not exclusively.
> 
> البصرة was a مصر, but not الزبير. While it is around the same age it was not actually built as a city at all, it just started as a rural settlement and remained a village until the early 20th century actually.
> 
> I don’t recall ever reading or hearing that Baghdad was referred to as مصر, it was called مدينة المنصور and المدينة المدورّة and دار السلام (latter is the official name that never really stuck), so it was specifically referred to as مدينة since it’s inception.



I think مصر eventually came to mean major city, or provincial capital, so Basrah remained one of the أمصار.  Baghdad was the capital of the empire so is not usually described as a مصر, but for example حجر اليمامة (precursor of modern Riyadh) was described as أرض اليمامة حجر وهي مصرها (أي اليمامة) ووسطها ومنزل الأمراء منها وإليها تجلب الأشياء.

Ibn Khaldun uses أمصار to refer to urban areas generally, e.g. distinguishing the dialects of the بادية from the dialects of الأمصار.


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## Mahaodeh

WadiH said:


> I think مصر eventually came to mean major city, or provincial capital


I agree that it came to mean city in general, but I don’t know about major city or provincial capital. I don’t have any evidence of either but I don’t recall ever reading anything that implied it was any bigger or smaller than المدينة. Of course, I may be wrong.

Perhaps some cities remained أمصار because they started as أمصار. The original meaning became obscure to most users because later on frontier cities were called ثغور. Again, no evidence, this is just me thinking out loud.


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## rarabara

haha ,
I remember a song, which is singed by nancy ajram , she says "انا مَصْري "  ,I was feeling myself surprised a bit whenever I listened , because I know that nancy ajram is a lebanese singer but why does she use that phrase?
now I can guess..


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## WadiH

Mahaodeh said:


> I agree that it came to mean city in general, but I don’t know about major city or provincial capital. I don’t have any evidence of either but I don’t recall ever reading anything that implied it was any bigger or smaller than المدينة. Of course, I may be wrong.
> 
> Perhaps some cities remained أمصار because they started as أمصار. The original meaning became obscure to most users because later on frontier cities were called ثغور. Again, no evidence, this is just me thinking out loud.



حجر اليمامة is a pre-Islamic city and Al-Hamdani in صفة جزيرة العرب calls it a مصر, as I've quoted above (مصرها ووسطها ومنزل الأمراء منها وإليها تجلب الأشياء).

ثغور is different.  It means frontier city as you said, which is not what مصر means (regardless of its ancient etymology).


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## ausermilar

To my Egyptians friends, just three questions about cities and villages and hamlets:

- "city centre" in Egyptian is وسط البلد , and  "the centre of the country" is translated with the same expression? (I want to say that El -Minia is in the centre of the country: do I say  المنيا فينها؟  هي في وسط البلد ?).

- a كفر  is smaller than a قرية ? 

- And an عزبة is just a farm or also a small village? 

Thanks to all of you.


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## Mahaodeh

I can answer about Palestinian Arabic, and I think that Egyptian is the same, perhaps Cherine can confirm:

- In PA وسط البلد is also “city centre”. It does not mean “the centre of the country”, in fact, I wouldn’t use that expression even in English, I would go for “the middle of”. In PA I would say في نص followed by the name of the place. It rarely makes sense to use the name of a whole country but I suppose you can. If you say في نص البلد it could be understood as “the middle of the city or town”.

- In PA الكفر is a village, no difference. I was told that كفر is a village in Syriac, but I don’t speak Syriac so I can’t confirm. 

- I don’t think that عزبة is used in PA, at least I’ve never heard it used unless referring to something in Egypt, but in EA it refers to a country estate, as in, the large house/mansion of a rich land owner together with his farm. It may or may not include housing for the farm hands that work for him. Perhaps someone from Egypt can confirm.


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## ausermilar

Mahaodeh said:


> I can answer about Palestinian Arabic, and I think that Egyptian is the same, perhaps Cherine can confirm:
> 
> - In PA وسط البلد is also “city centre”. It does not mean “the centre of the country”, in fact, I wouldn’t use that expression even in English, I would go for “the middle of”. In PA I would say في نص followed by the name of the place. It rarely makes sense to use the name of a whole country but I suppose you can. If you say في نص البلد it could be understood as “the middle of the city or town”.
> 
> - In PA الكفر is a village, no difference. I was told that كفر is a village in Syriac, but I don’t speak Syriac so I can’t confirm.
> 
> - I don’t think that عزبة is used in PA, at least I’ve never heard it used unless referring to something in Egypt, but in EA it refers to a country estate, as in, the large house/mansion of a rich land owner together with his farm. It may or may not include housing for the farm hands that work for him. Perhaps someone from Egypt can confirm.


Thanks for your help.

I put the question because in fusha, I learnt the expression وسط المدينة (wasat al-madeena) and everything was clear: the city (madeena) had a centre and the country (balad) could have  another (geographical) centre. In any case, "city centre" is translated directly وسط المدينة in many road signs, at least in Egypt.


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## Ali Smith

ausermilar said:


> Thanks for your help.
> 
> I put the question because in fusha, I learnt the expression وسط المدينة (wasat al-madeena) and everything was clear: the city (madeena) had a centre and the country (balad) could have  another (geographical) centre. In any case, "city centre" is translated directly وسط المدينة in many road signs, at least in Egypt.


Actually, "country" is بِلاد, not بَلَد.


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## ausermilar

Ali Smith said:


> Actually, "country" is بِلاد, not بَلَد.


Of course, you're right!    👏   ! بلادي لك حبي و فؤادي          

 There's no possibility of confusion between the centre of the city and the centre of the country!   Thanks!!!


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## WadiH

بلد can mean country.


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## Abu Talha

Just adding info:

بلاد is technically a plural of بلد/بلدة and means "country" collectively.

See Lane:


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## 𒍝𒊑𒈾 𒂵𒉿𒀉

I think بلدة and بلد mean exactly the same thing because how else can you explain that بلدة is grammatially masculine (as in the ayah لِّنُحْۦِىَ بِهِۦ بَلْدَةً مَّيْتًا وَنُسْقِيَهُۥ مِمَّا خَلَقْنَآ أَنْعَٰمًا وَأَنَاسِىَّ كَثِيرًا)?


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