# How fragile are race relations - could it all erupt?



## xarruc

Hi all,

  A friend in the UK recently was telling me how senior (re. age) Muslims were discussing on a political TV show how they felt a level of animosity towards them from the public at large in the UK that they had never felt before, that for the first time in their lives they felt an unease in the air.

  Another acquaintance is a odd-job man. He said he hasn’t had a good job for two years because he can’t compete with the Polish immigrants.

  Another, from the same area was protesting to me that the local shops are now all in Polish, without English, and that road signs are being put into Polish too.

  David Cameron, the aspiring Tory leader has recently sacked an MP who said that during his time in the army it was common to call black soldiers “black bastards” in the same way that fat soldiers were called “fat bastards”, and such use, though rife was not serious racist bullying. (He did not condone it either).

  Another Tory councillor, today, is in trouble because he dressed up as Neslon Mandela at a fancy dress party.

  Illegal immigrants are now to be given suits, hair cuts and manicures to help them find work (which they aren’t actually allowed to do – hence the _illegal _bit of _illegal immigrant_). When their time to leave the country comes the government sends them a text message to remind them that they should return to their country of origin – or else!

  The British Government has devolved such policy as education to the regions … except that England has no regional assembly. This means that Scottish and Welsh MPs vote on matters with zero effect on their constituencies. There are cases, such as with the new Alzheimer’s drug, where the Scots and Welsh get it but the English don’t – even though the money to pay for it is raised in England.

  Whilst most nationalities in the UK (Scottish, Welsh, Irish, Cornish, + all the immigrant nationalities) are encouraged, English nationalism is seen as racist, and so discouraged by the establishment.


  In the late 1990s there were some riots in various UK cities (Bradford and Luton particularly, if I remember) that were principally young Muslims protesting endemic racism and so on. I fear that if the young Muslims took to the streets in angry protest like they did then that there would be a blood bath. Although I no longer live in the UK, my impression of the situation is that there is a lot of anger in the air. Terrorism certainly hasn’t helped (in fact that was what it was designed to do), immigration too has put a strain in some areas, but the biggest source of anger amongst the white population seems to be the attitude of the State to pussy-foot around minority groups and favour the unemployed whilst oppressing the employed with ever higher taxes. The political correctness movement further prevents open discussion and letting off of steam by attacking anyone in authority who echoes what many of the public say.


The intention of this thread is not to discuss the rights and wrongs of any of the above anecdotes, rather to discuss the mood in the air. Do you feel an unease? Do you feel race relations are at a high, or a low? This is not constrained to Britain. How are race relations in your country? Does positive discrimination or political correctness cause more problems than it solves? Have the recent major terrorist acts and related wars caused mistrust in your community?


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## xrayspex

Can you define "race"? 

*JUST KIDDING.*


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## Kajjo

Political correctness causes tremendously more problems than it solves, that's for sure. The public opinion is very far away from the average citizen's opinion in very many discussions. It's sad.

Knowledge, insight, objective facts and a pragmatic, honest understanding are not much sought after, while media hype and political correctness dominate. At least that's the tendency I feel. 

Kajjo


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## elpoderoso

In the factory where I work there are a large number of immigrant workers, mainly from Poland (I'd guess about 90% of the temporary workforce is Polish) but a lot of others from Iraq(Kurdish mostly), Ghana, South Asia and numerous other places.
Despite the combined Immigrant workforce outnumbering the ''natives'' I don't find much (open) hostility toward the newcomers. There are some people who like to blame all their hardships and woes on the ''bloody foreigners'' and there is often graffitti of a racist nature scattered around the factory, but I don't think this really points towards any general feeling of unease, these people would probably have another target if there were no immigrant workers.
In fact, the only 'racial' incident I recall, was between some Poles and some Iraqis. 

Tensions in the rest of the country are always overhyped by the media, and because of a lot of PC ignorance, any decent and well thought ideas for tweaking the system to help those who come here to benefit our society are outweighed by the patronisng PC concessions to minority groups by those who ignore the rest of the working class population.

Obviously my place of work can't be used as a model for the rest of the country, but my local pub can!!, no seriously, like at work there are some racist attitudes but never any real open hostility, I think these attitudes come mainly from genuine ignorance and some peer pressure though I think these attitudes have been around a long time and didn't just spring up because of recent events and influxes of immigrants. 
The biggest change is that before 2001-2002 a lot of racist talk featured ''pakis'' without mention of religion, now a lot of the talk is 'bloody Muslims', but this again hasn't turned into any real community tension.(at least where I live)


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## maxiogee

xrayspex said:


> Can you define "race"?



Homo Sapiens
Homo Heidelbergensis
Homo Ergaster
Homo Rudolfensis
etc, etc.

These races are all our relations but I'd be surprised to see anything erupt


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## JamesM

> How fragile are race relations?


 
Very, or not at all, depending on who you ask. (Just staying _completely_ on-topic.  )



> Could it all erupt?


 
Yes... or no. See answer above. 

- James

p.s. Now wasn't that enlightening?  (If "hijacking" or "off-topic" appears after _this _post, I will definitely develop a complex about posting in the CD forum  )


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## french4beth

xarruc said:


> . The intention of this thread is not to discuss the rights and wrongs of any of the above anecdotes, rather to discuss the mood in the air. Do you feel an unease? Somewhat, particularly towards anyone from the Middle East (not personally but in the US in general).
> Do you feel race relations are at a high, or a low? At a low world-wide - whenever the economy gets tough, people want to find a scapegoat to blame things on.
> How are race relations in your country? Could be better, could be worse... overall, much better than the last century over all. In some parts of the US, it was not considered a crime if a black person was murdered until after the civil rights movement.
> Does positive discrimination or political correctness cause more problems than it solves? Hard to say - it has helped more people than it hurt, in my opinion; people have gotten into university, have gotten better jobs, so there has been more opportunities over all.
> Have the recent major terrorist acts and related wars caused mistrust in your community?


 I would say yes (not personally, but in the community).


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## Brioche

xarruc said:


> Hi all,
> 
> A friend in the UK recently was telling me how senior (re. age) Muslims were discussing on a political TV show how they felt a level of animosity towards them from the public at large in the UK that they had never felt before, that for the first time in their lives they felt an unease in the air.



Islam is not a race, it is a religion. 

Anyone can join - just like Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses, Buddhists and so on. There are blond, blue-eyed Muslims/Catholics, and black as coal Muslims/Catholics, and everything in between.


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## geve

xrayspex said:


> Can you define "race"?
> 
> *JUST KIDDING.*


This is not a joke. One can have a very particular understanding of the notion of race, but no matter what, "muslim" is not a race. "Polish" is not a race. "Immigrant" is not a race. "Unemployed" is not a race.

This thread is about social cohesion, not race relations.


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## Etcetera

I don't have anything against immigrants. But I don't like _illegal_ immigrants. When people don't want to legalise themselves, I immediately grow suspicious. When people want to obtain a country's citizenship or at least permission to live and work there, they usually do it. When a person refuses to apply for a permission, it may be understood as that they don't respect the country they came to. 
There are circumstances, of course. But nonetheless. I know several people who moved to Russia from neighbouring countries (mostly Ukraine) and now live and work here legally.


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## geve

Etcetera said:


> When people want to obtain a country's citizenship or at least permission to live and work there, they usually do it.


Are you speaking for Russia?
This is not true at all in France, as one can read and hear every day in the news.


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## Etcetera

geve said:


> Are you speaking for Russia?
> This is not true at all in France, as one can read and hear every day in the news.


I'm sure there are many people in Russia who would argue with me; but I know people who actually managed to get past all bureaucratic troubles.


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## geve

Etcetera said:


> I'm sure there are many people in Russia who would argue with me; but I know people who actually managed to get past all bureaucratic troubles.


Sure, but it is quite different to say "I know people who succeeded", and "If someone is illegal that's because he isn't trying".


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## Etcetera

geve said:


> Sure, but it is quite different to say "I know people who succeeded", and "If someone is illegal that's because he isn't trying".


I agree that sometimes it's the circumstances to blame for the person's moving to another country. But what I can't understand is when people prefer to work illegally for years and explain it as "Oh, but you know, getting an official permission would take so much time!.."


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## Outsider

Brioche said:


> Islam is not a race, it is a religion.
> 
> Anyone can join - just like Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses, Buddhists and so on. There are blond, blue-eyed Muslims/Catholics, and black as coal Muslims/Catholics, and everything in between.


Yes, but there is a tendency to racialize Muslims in the West. I'm reminded of the Menezes affair.


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## maxiogee

geve said:


> This thread is about social cohesion, not race relations.



Indeed, and social cohesion is all down to the efforts we are _all_ prepared to make to cohese  (Yeah, I know it's cohere!)

If natives of any country think it is all down to their immigrants to make the adjustments there won't be any cohesion and there won't be any _social_ either.


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## geve

Etcetera said:


> I agree that sometimes it's the circumstances to blame for the person's moving to another country. But what I can't understand is when people prefer to work illegally for years and explain it as "Oh, but you know, getting an official permission would take so much time!.."


Yes, some people leave their countries in despair, and yes, some struggle for years to get legal papers. In the meantime, living as an illegal is not a nice situation. Working illegally means that you can be exploited, underpaid, pestered and fired and you can't say a word. You can be arrested at any time, while walking your children to school for instance (a recent case in France) or getting food at a soup kitchen (another recent case). You can't have health insurance. You can't rent an apartment. You can't have a bank account. You have no rights, for god's sake!! This is precariousness at its highest, and I don't think much people would willingly choose to remain in that situation.
It is important to see the persons behind the words, and judge things on a case-by-base basis.


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## Etcetera

geve said:


> This is precariousness at its highest, and I don't think much people would willingly choose to remain in that situation.


I once heard about a woman who preferred to work illegally so she got her salary directly from the employer and didn't have to pay taxes.
I guess it may well be the situation with the so-called gastarbeiters from Ukraine and Moldavia who work here during summers as builders. Illegally, of course.


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## xarruc

It is about social cohesion but lack of social cohesion often manifests itself as racism. All Arabs become Muslims. All Eastern Europeans become "Polish". The words lose their original meaning.


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## xarruc

Please note this thread is not about the rights of illegal immigrants. Is social cohesion at breaking point or improving? 

The anecdotes in the original thread do not represent my views. They merely illustrate the question.


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## Etcetera

OK, let's return to the topic.


xarruc said:


> Is social cohesion at breaking point or improving?


Hard to say for Russia. On the one hand, there are now more moving around than it used to be some two decades ago. On the other hand, people (especially the people who belong to the ethnical majority in the given area) are inevitably getting suspicious to 'strangers'. 
But what I've never heard here are laments that the newcomers have left somebody without a job. The thing is that in Russia, it's the newcomers who have more difficulties in finding any job.


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## geve

xarruc said:


> Is social cohesion at breaking point or improving?


To get back on track: something stroke me in your original post:


xarruc said:


> Although I no longer live in the UK, my impression of the situation is that there is a lot of anger in the air.


I think it always seems worse when seen from outside.
During the riots in France in 2005, people living abroad thought that the whole country was at war and there were cars burning at every street corner and everyone was either fighting or hiding. Meanwhile, many French citizens kept driving to work every day, shopping, making love or squabbling over whose turn it was to wash the dishes.
Presidential elections in France often brings to light that a good proportion of those who vote for extreme right parties live in the countryside. People who barely ever set foot in a suburb and/or have almost never met a colored national see on TV that life is brutal in big cities' surroundings and they fear that it might reach them one day.

I don't think social cohesion is at breaking point. I don't think it's improving, either.


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## geve

geve said:


> To get back on track: something stroke me in your original post:


This will remain on the WR board for everyone to see as I can't edit it out any more. It's probably for the best anyway, people should be informed that things occasionally stroke me on this forum - I mentioned this fascinating phenomenon before.


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