# Icelandic: Case System- hjálpa!



## sollilja90

Hi, I am a native English speaker trying to teach myself Icelandic. All is going pretty well for the most part, despite the severe lack of resources for this obscure and beautiful language, except that I find myself getting confused when it comes to casses in Icelandic grammar. The main problem I seem to be having is knowing when to use the accusative and the dative case. I took a few years of German in school, so I do have some knowledge of how the case system works in Germanic lanuages, but I gues the main questions I have for Icelandic are:

1. Knowing when verbs govern the accusative or dative case? A lot of sources seem to state that the direct object is always placed in the accusative, however I notice a great many verbs seem to govern te dative, and I can't seem to find a pattern as to when verbs govern th dative.

2. Forming sentences in the genitive case, showing posession has got me confused as well. 

3. Also the use of the reflexive pronoun sig. Could anyone show me some examples of how and when to use this in a sentence?

Any and all help is very much appreciated!

Takk fyrrir!


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## Segorian

> 1. Knowing when verbs govern the accusative or dative case?


 There are a few general rules that apply in a great many cases, and then there are numerous exceptions.

A good way to learn the main rule is to refer to the Icelandic names of the accusative and the dative: _þolfall_ (the case of "being subject to something") and _þágufall_ (the case of "having something done for you"). To simplify, the rule can be formulated as follows: Where something is being done *to* someone/something, the case to use is the accusative; and where something is being done *for* someone/something, the case to use is the dative. The verb _gefa_ (to give) is a good example of the application of this rule. In the sentence _Við gáfum börnunum fisk að borða_, we get the accusative of _fiskur_ because the giving is being done *to* the fish, and we get the dative of _börnin_ because the giving is being done *for* the children (for their benefit). Another example would be _Kennarinn lagði nemendunum lífsreglurnar_, where the accusative is used for the rules being taught, and the dative for the pupils receiving the instruction.

Another important rule is that the dative is often used where something is being used as a tool, implement or means: _Gunnar beitti boganum rétt_; _Anna skellti hurðinni_.

Sometimes, these two rules combine: _Ástarsorgin rændi Hjört vitinu_ (robbed him of his senses).

The exceptions to these rules are too numerous to list here and have to be learned as one goes along.


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## Silver_Biscuit

I tried to learn some basic rules for it when I started as well, but I didn't actually find that it helped me all that much. For me it was easier to rationalise it after I'd learned it, but I basically learned by using the language, reading and listening to Icelandic as much as possible. Most of the verbs I use regularly just sound right or wrong to me now with the dative or accusative (or genitive).

2. Do you have some sort of teaching aid, like a book? Possession is a big topic also. "Þetta er hundurinn minn / bókin mín / húsið mitt" is the most basic way of saying "This is my ______". Could you be more specific about what you want to know?

3. Sig / sér / sín are basically like the equivalent of herself / himself / themselves. So... Ég rakaði mig = I shaved myself, Hann rakaði sig = He shaved himself. Although they don't always translate this literally, e.g. Ég var heima hjá mér = I was at (my) home, Hún var heima hjá sér = She was at (her) home. To compare to the non-reflexive: Hún var heima hjá mér = She was at my house, Ég var heima hjá henni = I was at her house.


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## Gavril

Segorian said:


> Another important rule is that the dative is often used where something is being used as a tool, implement or means: _Gunnar beitti boganum rétt_; _Anna skellti hurðinni_.



The dative also seems to be used with many (most?) transitive verbs of motion, regardless of whether the object is a person or a thing: 

- _Hann sparkaði bolt*anum* _"He kicked the ball"
- _Hann ýtti mann*inum* niður_ "He pushed the man down"
- _Ég lyfti stein*i*_ "I lifted a stone"


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## Segorian

Gavril said:


> The dative also seems to be used with many (most?) transitive verbs of motion


 Absolutely, that is yet another rule: _fleygja/henda/__kasta/varpa_ (to throw), _verpa_ (to lay an egg), _sigla_ (to sail), _róa_ (to row), _sökkva_ (to sink), _hrinda_ (to push), _kippa_ (to pull) are all verbs of motion governing the dative. The list goes on.

Curiously, _hreyfa_ (to move) takes the accusative (_Sigurður hreyfði sig ekki_ (didn't move)), except when used in a non-literal sense: _Ég hreyfði því máli ekki frekar_, "I didn't pursue the matter any further."


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## Alxmrphi

There really is no easy answer to the question. The way you go about learning it all (at least in my experience) is focus on the words themselves, the possible noun declensions, the possible verbal conjugations and make sure you know how each word behaves. Then, you can widen your learning context from focusing on individual words and start associating what cases match with which verbs (following some generalised principles I'll mention below). Then once that is down, you can zoom that little bit further out and start noticing what prepositions are used with certain cases, notice idioms and then add the wider layers of detail.

There is a good paper on the statistical distribution of case in Icelandic (link) and if you're really into that kind of stuff, you will probably want to read it all. However, if not, and you only want to take the bare minimum of the conclusions, then you only need to pay attention to the listed conclusions on pages 87, 91-92, 96, 100. Of course, there are numerous complexities that you will come across - that's part of the journey - but it's definitely not insurmountable.


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## sollilja90

Thank you to everybody who responded! I'm currently only making use of Icelandic: Grammar, texts, gossary and the free program online at icelandiconline.is (which is very good for a free program b the way!) But I'm thinking of getting a newer book perhaps to supplement Einarsson's. I really do appreciate all the responses to my questions so thanks again!


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## Alxmrphi

sollilja90 said:


> Thank you to everybody who responded! I'm currently only making use of Icelandic: Grammar, texts, gossary and the free program online at icelandiconline.is (which is very good for a free program b the way!) But I'm thinking of getting a newer book perhaps to supplement Einarsson's. I really do appreciate all the responses to my questions so thanks again!


I bought the Einarsson book quite early on in my learning journey and talking from experience, it really is more of a reference book than anything else. This guy was born in the 1800s though and I have had Icelandic friends look in it and see some of the examples and actually laugh out loud at how ridiculous some of it sounds. You really need a better, more modern book. It's great as a reference, because a lot of the stuff will be correct, but I definitely would not recommend it being either the sole or one of the sole books a new learner has. Through time, I've found just how much modern stuff is available that is much better. If you want a book to buy, go for _Colloquial Icelandic_. Also, asking questions here will be a great help as it's real-time help from other people who have faced the same issues.


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## Daniel20

I'm happy to act as some sort of correspondence - unlike Alxmrphi, SB and the other native English speakers on here I'm probably only a bit (if any) ahead of you, so can speak on the same level etc. Just message me over here or something if you want.

I back Alex's recommendation for Colloquial Icelandic. I got it from my University's library and it is quite good, even if the texts are a little challenging. I feel like with Icelandic, unlike other languages, you need to learn the grammar and declension patterns before really speaking but CI introduces you quite slowly to the grammar.


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## Sepia

@1. Knowing when verbs govern the accusative or dative case? A lot of sources seem to state that the direct object is always placed in the accusative, however I notice a great many verbs seem to govern te dative, and I can't seem to find a pattern as to when verbs govern th dative.


As you already have drawn comparisons between Icelandic and "other Germanic languages": a fact that is neglected by many students of High German as well as native speakers is that a direct object is not really a direct object when thinking in practical terms. What seems to be a direct object in a phrase, because it is the only object mentioned in the phrase may not really be a direct object when you look closer at the "basic grammar" of the situation you are describing.

Imagine you have a flat and I am changing your tire for you. (Just theoretically - I might break my finger nails)
I might say,
- I'll change your tire

or 

- I'll help you

In English this really doesn't make any difference. You recognize an object by the position in the phrase.

In High German however, the verb "helfen" would have the object in the dative case. If you take a closer look at the image you have in your mind while speaking the two phrases, the difference should be obvious.

Could be similar in Icelandic. (It is the kind of logic I find in a lot of languages)


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## Hspo

I'm sorry but I haven't found the right button to click for asking a new question. Nothing happens when I click on 'new thread'...
While trying to solve this problem I hope you don't mind if I ask a question about cases here. I know how to use dative and accusative (past latin and german studies), but as I was doing an excercise on Icelandic online (Iceland Uni) I don't understand this:
"ég gleymi heitum (missing adjective that I add correctly for the dative plural of feminine noun _súpa_) *súpur*." (word in the plural that I can't alter in the exercise). Shouldn't it be *súpum*? I checked on BÍN and súpum is the dative plural. Is there an error in this exercise , or am I having a bad day? It seems straight forward and I have done all the other questions correctly. It is Náttúra lesson 4-1-3.
Thank you for any help!


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## Silver_Biscuit

Yep, looks like a mistake to me. Gleyma definitely takes the dative case, so it should be _heitum súpum_. Although "I forget hot soups" has got to be one of the stupidest example sentences I've ever seen. For some reason I am unable to log in to Icelandic online at the moment, but if this is definitely what it says, it is worth sending them an email I would say. Then they can fix it.

Although, is it possible you misread geymi as gleymi? Because the verb geyma (to keep) does take the accusative and then it would be _heitar súpur_.

Edit: No, I managed to log in and found the page you are talking about. It is definitely a mistake.


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## Hspo

Thank you very much Silver biscuit. I have come across other problems in this course, for example, some oral exercises don't work, and on the page I mention above we get the same exercise twice instead of an exercise on conjugation.
Otherwise I'm enjoying this course. I'll try to tell them about these problems anyway.


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## Segorian

Hspo said:


> "ég gleymi heitum (missing adjective that I add correctly for the dative plural of feminine noun _súpa_) *súpur*."


This example has a lysergic flavour to it. May we presume that the course is generally psychedelic in character?


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## Hspo

Ha ha! Yes, I agree. We come across all sorts of strange examples when learning languages. Maybe through a lack of imagination, sometimes it's difficult to find the right sentence to use. This example at least uses the appropriate vocabulary at this point in the course. I'm happy to be making progress, learning a little about Iceland, (the course begins with whales ), even though this language is quite challenging.


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