# Pronunciation of Idee



## Rocoa8

Hello,

Idee should be pronounced as an I in the word "it" and then a long "e" at the end, rather than a long I also, correct?

Thanks a bunch


----------



## Nanexa

_Idee_ is pronounced: [ide:]
i like the I of it, ee like the e in bed, but longer like beeeed  and it is spoken a little bit more closed, like in Meer, Heer, sehr.


Nanexa


----------



## jebbe

Rocoa, do you know any German? The problem is that there simply is no vowel in the English language corresponding to the German "ee" in "Idee". It is a very open vowel, something between the English "ee" as in "see" and the "e" in "bed". I have been trying to teach it to an American choir, and I guess there is no way of getting it right without hearing it from a native. (And even then some still did not get it quite right...)

I would describe the "I" in "Idee" as similar to the English "ee" sound in "see", just a little shorter.

jebbe


----------



## Rocoa8

I have consulted my professor and several dictionairies and they all say it is a normal, short German I, whereas only the "ee" is long, in "Idee"


----------



## Outsider

Short-long, yes that part is right. As for the sound of the "ee", I'd suggest using the "ea" in English "ear", "fear", "clear", etc.


----------



## jester.

Outsider said:


> Short-long, yes that part is right. As for the sound of the "ee", I'd suggest using the "ea" in English "ear", "fear", "clear", etc.



This might be a good approximation, depending very much on the dialect of the English "ea".

Rocoa, if you know some French: the "ee" in Idee is like French "é"


----------



## Rocoa8

Hmm, could it also be described as the English A sound (when stating the alphabet)  mixed with a German long E?


----------



## Outsider

Alas, the English A "sound" is a diphthong. One thing you do _not_ want to do when speaking German is pronounce plain vowels as diphthongs.

P.S. How silly of me. You can hear the German "e" here. (The symbol is [e], too.) Now you just need to make it long.


----------



## jester.

Try this.

Stefan and Ulrike, although not perfect, are the best speakers I think. At least they pronounce "Idee" best.

Their pronunciation of the word as a whole is not ideal, but their "ee" is quite ok.


----------



## Rocoa8

Yes, but essenstially the English A soung and the long German E are the same sound, so to speak.


----------



## Outsider

Rocoa8 said:


> Yes, but essenstially the English A soung and the long German E are the same sound, so to speak.


Do they seem so to you?
They don't to me. I clearly notice that one is a diphthong, and the other is not. 
Or perhaps the pronunciation of the English "A" varies with dialect. I mean, I know it does; I've just never heard an _American_ accent where the long A was not pronounced "a*y*". (I can picture a Scotsman or an Irishman pronouncing "same" as [se:m], though.)


----------



## Rocoa8

Eh, that sounds like the I is also long, but all the dictionaries I have mark it as a short I :-/


----------



## Outsider

The "i" is not long, but it is tense, rather than lax. This has to do more with the quality of the vowel. You have to pronounce it like the "e" in "me", not like the "i" in "bit".


----------



## elroy

Outsider said:


> As for the sound of the "ee", I'd suggest using the "ea" in English "ear", "fear", "clear", etc.


 I wouldn't.  To me, they are very different sounds.

The German "ee" is more like the "ea" in "bear" or the "ai" in "sail" (American English pronunciation).


----------



## Outsider

elroy said:


> I wouldn't.  To me, they are very different sounds.
> 
> The German "ee" is more like the "ea" in "bear"


I strongly disagree.

"ear" --> mid-close vowel (followed by a schwa, I think, but let's simplify)

"bear" --> mid-_open_ vowel; Like in "get", "bet", "eggs" (again, possibly long, or followed by a schwa, or something like that, but that's not relevant here)



elroy said:


> or the "ai" in "sail" (American English pronunciation).


As I wrote above, every American I've ever heard pronounces that as a diphthong, which German [e] most certainly is not.


----------



## Conchita57

Outsider said:


> As I wrote above, every American I've ever heard pronounces that as a diphthong, which German [e] most certainly is not.


 
No, it isn't, but we could safely say the the German 'e' sound in 'Idee' is like the first part of the diphthong [ei] (as in abc).


----------



## elroy

Outsider said:


> I strongly disagree.
> 
> "ear" --> mid-close vowel (followed by a schwa, I think, but let's simplify)
> 
> "bear" --> mid-_open_ vowel; Like in "get", "bet", "eggs" (again, possibly long, or followed by a schwa, or something like that, but that's not relevant here)


 Linguistic terminology aside  ,the "ea" in "ear" is simply _not_ the same sound as the "ee" in "Idee" - not even close! At least not in American English. The "ea" in "ear" is like the German "ie" in "bieten." 

The "ea" in "bear" is much closer to the German "ee." 


> As I wrote above, every American I've ever heard pronounces that as a diphthong, which German [e] most certainly is not.


 I have an American accent but I do not pronounce it like a diphthong (speaking of which, what diphthong would that be?). What you said may apply to some areas of the South, where people are prone to elongate syllables, but it certainly doesn't apply to most American accents.

By the way, I wish to stress that I did not mean to imply that the sounds were identical - just that the "ea" in "bear" is much closer to the German "ee" than the "ea" in "ear."


----------



## elroy

Conchita57 said:


> No, it isn't, but we could safely say the the German 'e' sound in 'Idee' is like the first part of the diphthong [ei] (as in abc).


 Yes, except it's longer.  That's what I was trying to communicate earlier.


----------



## I.C.

For the “i” in “Idee” I might possibly suggest the first “e” in “even”, both for type of sound and duration (as it is pronounced in RP - just for instance).


----------



## Rocoa8

Wouldn't that still classify technically as a long I sound in a dictionary then?


----------



## I.C.

Rocoa8 said:


> Wouldn't that still classify technically as a long I sound in a dictionary then?


I'm not that familiar with phonetic symbols, so I don't really know. It may be. I don't think it's a particularly short sound. 
Not to write something wrong I just consulted an English dictionary and I'd say the "i" in question certainly is closer to the [i:] as in "read" or "meet" (the examples given there) than to the _ in "sit". I tend to think "even" is pretty close, if not perfect. 
At least as long as one is modest (as one should) and does not succumb to the habit of drawing out the first "e" in "even" pretentiously long._


----------



## Outsider

elroy said:


> I have an American accent but I do not pronounce it like a diphthong (speaking of which, what diphthong would that be?).


Conchita seems to agree with me that it's a diphthong.



Conchita57 said:


> No, it isn't, but we could safely say the the German 'e' sound in 'Idee' is like the first part of the diphthong [ei] (as in abc).


The trouble with that description is that English speakers are totally incapable of "subtracting" the glide from the end of the diphthong.



elroy said:


> What you said may apply to some areas of the South, where people are prone to elongate syllables, but it certainly doesn't apply to most American accents.


It's more likely that English speakers like you are simply tone-deaf to the difference between the diphthong and the monophthong. Which is why "long a"-style explanations of the [e] sound are so woefully bad and misleading.



elroy said:


> Linguistic terminology aside  ,the "ea" in "ear" is simply _not_ the same sound as the "ee" in "Idee" - not even close!


Sorry, but it's definitely closer than the "ay" in "sail" (pronounced [seil], not [sel]).



elroy said:


> At least not in American English. The "ea" in "ear" is like the German "ie" in "bieten."


I'm not familiar with that German word, but I would imagine the "ie" is pronounced like the "ea" in "beat" [i:] -- lightyears away from the "ear" in "bear" [E:].



elroy said:


> The "ea" in "bear" is much closer to the German "ee."


In terms of quantity, perhaps, but not in terms of quality.


----------



## Outsider

Rocoa8 said:


> Wouldn't that still classify technically as a long I sound in a dictionary then?


Rocoa, everything you know about "long vowels" is wrong. English schools and dictionaries use a terminology that has nothing to do with the continental terminology, or with IPA. You probably learned that short vowels are:

"a" as in "bad"
"e" as in "get"
"i" as in "bit"
etc.

and long vowels are:

"a" as in "game"
"ee" as in "weed"
"i" as in "bite"

Unfortunately, this is not at all what vowel length means in German, or other languages in general. My advice: forget all you were taught about long/short in English. Listen to native German speakers, and learn all the sounds anew. It will be less confusing.


----------



## Rocoa8

Interesting, considering this all came from a German source ;-)


----------



## elroy

Outsider said:


> It's more likely that English speakers like you are simply tone-deaf to the difference between the diphthong and the monophthong. Which is why "long a"-style explanations of the [e] sound are so woefully bad and misleading.


 That's quite a presumptuous statement, and one I do not appreciate. I certainly know the difference between a diphthong and a monophthong. I did not compare the sound to _any_ long "a," but specifically to the one in "bear" and "sail" - which is different from the one in "name" and "rain." 


> Sorry, but it's definitely closer than the "ay" in "sail" (pronounced [seil], not [sel]).


 This statement suggests to me that you do not realize that the "ai" in "sail" is different from the one in "rain." There is no "ay" in "sail"; there is only an [e]. In fact, /seil/ is a wrong pronunciation that is frequent among native speakers of Spanish, who I suppose hyper-correct by pronouncing an [ei] where one does not exist (I don't know if Portuguese speakers do the same thing). "Sail" is pronounced /sel/ (more or less) whereas "rain" is pronounced /rein/.


> I'm not familiar with that German word, but I would imagine the "ie" is pronounced like the "ea" in "beat" [i:] -- lightyears away from the "ear" in "bear" [E:].


 That's right! What _you_ said was that the "ea" in "ear" (the "ie" in "bieten" and the "ea" in "beat") was similar to the "ee" in "Idee." That would lead to the conclusion that the "ie" in "bieten" is the same as the "ee" in "Idee," which is definitely not true.


> In terms of quantity, perhaps, but not in terms of quality.


 I was referring primarily to quality.

*Disclaimer: I wish to point out that I am using my own pronunciation of English - which is generically American - as a basis for my comparisons.  Other varieties/dialects may differ.  *


----------



## gaer

Outsider said:


> The trouble with that description is that English speakers are totally incapable of "subtracting" the glide from the end of the diphthong.


This is only true, perhaps, for those who speak ONLY English and who have never seriously listened to other languages.

Just listening to the pronunciation of the German alphabet immediately slammed me over the head with the difference. By that, I mean the difference was huge, obvious.


> It's more likely that English speakers like you are simply tone-deaf to the difference between the diphthong and the monophthong. Which is why "long a"-style explanations of the [e] sound are so woefully bad and misleading.


That's an incredibly personal statement, isn't it? I think there is some truth in what you have said for most people who speak English and only English.

Regardless, it would be much more useful to use the links suggested to listen rather than to describe German in terms of any other language. 

Gaer


----------



## gaer

Outsider said:


> Unfortunately, this is not at all what vowel length means in German, or other languages in general. My advice: forget all you were taught about long/short in English. Listen to native German speakers, and learn all the sounds anew.  It will be less confusing.


I could not agree with you more. It's a lot like music. All the words in the world are useless when decribing it, in the end, because using descriptions of sound to help MAKE a sound just doesn't work! 

Gaer


----------



## Conchita57

elroy said:


> This statement suggests to me that you do not realize that the "ai" in "sail" is different from the one in "rain." There is no "ay" in "sail"; there is only an [e]. In fact, /seil/ is a wrong pronunciation that is frequent among native speakers of Spanish, who I suppose hyper-correct by pronouncing an [ei] where one does not exist (I don't know if Portuguese speakers do the same thing). "Sail" is pronounced /sel/ (more or less) whereas "rain" is pronounced /rein/.


 
Do you mean to say that you pronounce 'sail' like the word 'sell', i.e. [sel]?  When you added your disclaimer, I think you should have made a correction:  it is not 'wrong', as you put it, to pronounce 'sail' as [seil], but rather standard pronunciation.  The way Americans pronounce the 'l' might somewhat distort the diphthong, but that word has the same diphthong as in 'rain'.


----------



## Outsider

This conversation is getting a little off-topic, for which I take some of the blame, so I thought it was best to start a new thread, and reply there.


----------



## elroy

Conchita57 said:


> Do you mean to say that you pronounce 'sail' like the word 'sell', i.e. [sel]? When you added your disclaimer, I think you should have made a correction: it is not 'wrong', as you put it, to pronounce 'sail' as [seil], but rather standard pronunciation. The way Americans pronounce the 'l' might somewhat distort the diphthong, but that word has the same diphthong as in 'rain'.


 No, I do not pronoune "sail" like "sell."

All I was saying was that the way I pronounce the "ai" in "sail" is not the same as the way I pronounce the "ai" in "rain."  Because there is an "l" at the end, there is no "glide" after the long "a" sound.


----------



## gaer

elroy said:


> No, I do not pronoune "sail" like "sell."
> 
> All I was saying was that the way I pronounce the "ai" in "sail" is not the same as the way I pronounce the "ai" in "rain." Because there is an "l" at the end, there is no "glide" after the long "a" sound.


In fact, Elroy, I hear a DIFFERNT glide, which I did not want to get into in the same discussion, now in English.

This is a gross distortion, but if you say it VERY slowly, you might here something like: se: &l (using & for VERY short "schwa"), where the tongue drops and the throat opens.

Remember, do it VERY slowly. Do it over and over, then speed up. I feel a glide acutally going in the opposite way a word such as "sane".

"Sell" is different because then you have the "e" sound in the English word "bet" with the same change at the end.

Regardless, I still feel that such discussions always become futile. We should be linking to sound files and discussing if they represent the way we pronounce all these words.

I find the sound files remarkably helpful, at least close, and the ones now available for English, becuase they are not coming from a program, are at least 100% perfect representations of the way SOMEONE actually speaks English.

Gaer


----------



## elroy

gaer said:


> In fact, Elroy, I hear a DIFFERNT glide, which I did not want to get into in the same discussion, now in English.
> 
> This is a gross distortion, but if you say it VERY slowly, you might here something like: se: &l (using & for VERY short "schwa"), where the tongue drops and the throat opens.
> 
> Remember, do it VERY slowly. Do it over and over, then speed up. I feel a glide acutally going in the opposite way a word such as "sane".
> 
> "Sell" is different because then you have the "e" sound in the English word "bet" with the same change at the end.


 This is correct.  I used "glide" the way I thought Outsider meant it: i.e. the "y" sound you hear in "rain" and "name." 


> Regardless, I still feel that such discussions always become futile. We should be linking to sound files and discussing if they represent the way we pronounce all these words.
> 
> I find the sound files remarkably helpful, at least close, and the ones now available for English, becuase they are not coming from a program, are at least 100% perfect representations of the way SOMEONE actually speaks English.


 I agree with this.  I was thinking the same thing.  It's really hard to discuss these things without audio resources.


----------



## gaer

Conchita57 said:


> Do you mean to say that you pronounce 'sail' like the word 'sell', i.e. [sel]? When you added your disclaimer, I think you should have made a correction: it is not 'wrong', as you put it, to pronounce 'sail' as [seil], but rather standard pronunciation. The way Americans pronounce the 'l' might somewhat distort the diphthong, but that word has the same diphthong as in 'rain'.


The ending "l" HUGELY changes the the beginning of sail. I can't understand why people can't hear that.

The "a" in "sale", which has the same pronunciation as "ai" in "sail", is different from the "e" in sell AND is different from the "a" in "say".

Not to all: why do so many of you insist on describing _sound_ with _words_ when we have sound files avialable that are so much clearer?

Gaer


----------

