# Pronunciation: /ŋ/ in British English



## L.P. Translator

Hello,

I haven't used the forum for a while but here I am - back and starving for more and more English.

Today's question is:

How do you exactly pronounce the ŋ  sound in Standard British English? Is it a strong "G" like that of "[G]utter" or is it more like pronouncing the world almost with no final "G" sound as in "singin'"? I know that g-dropping is viewed as lazy and/or lower class, but it seems that in more educated form of speech, speakers don't enunciate the G very much either. 

On online dictionaries such as this one you do in fact hear words ending in ŋ almost pronounced without a G sound - maybe the sound is produced only by the slight movement of your tongue against your palate when you end the word?

Thanks for your help,
Leonardo


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## Scholiast

Greetings!

I understand L.P. Translator's perplexity here, for despite the phonetic alphabet including ŋ, it is hard to describe how the sound is actually produced - especially when it is completely alien to another's language (Germans always have difficulty with "th" in English, as English speakers do with Scots "lo*ch*" or French "r*ue*" - never mind the doubled consonants in _sore*ll*a_).

And there is no such sound as ŋ in modern Italian. My suggestion: start with a standard Italian "n" sound, with the tip of the tongue fairly fairly well forward, almost at the root of the front teeth, then try pulling it back towards the throat, until the sides of the tongue make contact with the side-walls of the palate, and the breath coming out exclusively through the nose.

L. P. is right, there are class- (and local/regional) dialectical variants of this pronunciation, so sometimes one will hear "sin*g*inŋ" (as in "fin*g*er", "hun*g*er", "an*g*er", but if anythin', the omission of the g-sound at the end of participles and gerunds ("huntin', shootin' and fishin'") is the mark either of old-fashioned gentry- speak, or (more likely these days) wannabes.

Does this help?

Σ


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## L.P. Translator

Scholiast said:


> Greetings!
> 
> I understand L.P. Translator's perplexity here, for despite the phonetic alphabet including ŋ, it is hard to describe how the sound is actually produced - especially when it is completely alien to another's language (Germans always have difficulty with "th" in English, as English speakers do with Scots "lo*ch*" or French "r*ue*" - never mind the doubled consonants in _sore*ll*a_).
> 
> And there is no such sound as ŋ in modern Italian. My suggestion: start with a standard Italian "n" sound, with the tip of the tongue fairly fairly well forward, almost at the root of the front teeth, then try pulling it back towards the throat, until the sides of the tongue make contact with the side-walls of the palate, and the breath coming out exclusively through the nose.
> 
> L. P. is right, there are class- (and local/regional) dialectical variants of this pronunciation, so sometimes one will hear "sin*g*inŋ" (as in "fin*g*er", "hun*g*er", "an*g*er", but if anythin', the omission of the g-sound at the end of participles and gerunds ("huntin', shootin' and fishin'") is the mark either of old-fashioned gentry- speak, or (more likely these days) wannabes.
> 
> Does this help?
> 
> Σ



It DOES help, thank you! 

I've tried pronouncing the sound as you say, and it definitely sounds like a normal "g" without the final "guttural" sound - am I right here or have I completely misunderstood you?

Thanks a lot,
Leonardo


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## Scholiast

Greetings Leonardo

Without actually hearing you try it, I can't say whether you have it quite right. But yes, in RP (BrE) English, there would be no final guttural sound - the problem remains, that English orthography does not distinguish between those words where the guttural g is pronounced and where it is not, and there are some dialects in which you will hear "sin*g*in*g*". But as a rule of thumb, at least if it's at the end of a word, the g will not be pronounced as a separate consonant (this actually applies to AmE too).

Σ


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## L.P. Translator

Scholiast said:


> Greetings Leonardo
> 
> Without actually hearing you try it, I can't say whether you have it quite right. But yes, in RP (BrE) English, there would be no final guttural sound - the problem remains, that English orthography does not distinguish between those words where the guttural g is pronounced and where it is not, and there are some dialects in which you will hear "sin*g*in*g*". But as a rule of thumb, at least if it's at the end of a word, the g will not be pronounced as a separate consonant (this actually applies to AmE too).
> 
> Σ



Thank you Scholiast - all of this is really useful to me, who am trying to improve my British English as much as possible (for a foreigner). 

Also, what you have said leads us to a second question. Do you say the G when in between [EDIT: before] vowels? i_.e: playing American Football.
_
Thank you,
Leonardo


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## Scholiast

Greetings Leonardo



> Do you say the G when in between [EDIT: before] vowels? i_.e: playing American Football.
> _



Certainly not, unless you are from the Birmin*g*ham area - which (to my ear) is one of the least attractive accents in all English.

Ciao,

Σ


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## L.P. Translator

Scholiast said:


> Greetings Leonardo
> 
> 
> 
> Certainly not, unless you are from the Birmin*g*ham area - which (to my ear) is one of the least attractive accents in all English.
> 
> Ciao,
> 
> Σ



I see, thank you - on a funny note, I know some 'Brummie' English thanks to Harry Enfield, but I'm fairly sure that that's not an accurate representation of the average person from Birmingham, or that if I said so I'd get a few nasty comments.


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## tunaafi

Although the consonant  /ŋ/ is  produced with the tongue in the same part of the mouth as for /g/, /g/ is never part of the/ŋ/. sound.  In some words, such as 'finger', the letters *ng *are pronounced as /ŋg/ in nearly all varieties of English. In other words, such as 'singer', the letters *ng* are pronounced in most standard varieties as /ŋ/ and in some other varieties as /ŋg/.

My point is, and I say it again:/g/ is never part of the sound /ŋ/.


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## L.P. Translator

tunaafi said:


> Although the consonant  /ŋ/ is  produced with the tongue in the same part of the mouth as for /g/, /g/ is never part of the/ŋ/. sound.  In some words, such as 'finger', the letters *ng *are pronounced as /ŋg/ in nearly all varieties of English. In other words, such as 'singer', the letters *ng* are pronounced in most standard varieties as /ŋ/ and in some other varieties as /ŋg/.
> 
> My point is, and I say it again:/g/ is never part of the sound /ŋ/.



This further complicates the matter (for me, not for native English speakers of course) - Seems I ought to leave my strong italian G in the toolbox and buy some new sounds!


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## Scholiast

Greetings again

Sorry, tunaafli, 





> ...the consonant  /ŋ/ is  produced with the tongue in the same part of the mouth as for /g/


No it is not. g is a guttural, with the tongue held further back than for ŋ and with only its innermost sides in contact with the palate.

Σ

And (edit, after cross-posting): yes, keep the strong Italian "g" - as in "garage".

Σ


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## L.P. Translator

Scholiast said:


> Greetings again
> 
> Sorry, tunaafli,
> No it is not. g is a guttural, with the tongue held further back than for ŋ and with only its innermost sides in contact with the palate.
> 
> Σ



Still, the pronunciation of "singer" amazes me, I've just checked on the dictionary and it's reported like ˈsɪŋə(r)  - I can't believe I've never actually noticed that! I always thought it was pronounced like sinGer, but paying attention to the audio on the dictionary it sounds more like "sinner". Is there a rule for when to pronounce it like ng and ​ŋ?


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## mplsray

L.P. Translator said:


> Hello,
> 
> I haven't used the forum for a while but here I am - back and starving for more and more English.
> 
> Today's question is:
> 
> How do you exactly pronounce the ŋ  sound in Standard British English? Is it a strong "G" like that of "[G]utter" or is it more like pronouncing the world almost with no final "G" sound as in "singin'"? I know that g-dropping is viewed as lazy and/or lower class, but it seems that in more educated form of speech, speakers don't enunciate the G very much either.
> 
> On online dictionaries such as this one you do in fact hear words ending in ŋ almost pronounced without a G sound - maybe the sound is produced only by the slight movement of your tongue against your palate when you end the word?



This is not a comment on the pronunciation, but rather on the terminology you use. Your post is the first I have read in which /ŋ/ appears to be thought of as being a "_g_ sound." In both British or American English /ŋ/ is a nasal sound. In words in which /ŋ/ occurs with a following /g/, as in the words _finger_ and _linger_, there are two consonants being pronounced rather than one.


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## L.P. Translator

mplsray said:


> This is not a comment on the pronunciation, but rather on the terminology you use. Your post is the first I have read in which /ŋ/ appears to be thought of as being a "_g_ sound." In both British or American English /ŋ/ is a nasal sound. In words in which /ŋ/ occurs with a following /g/, as in the words _finger_ and _linger_, there are two consonants being pronounced rather than one.



I can assure I'm not the first to think to /ŋ/ as a /g/ - in Italy that's the norm! Maybe that's why the Italian accent is one of the strongest in Europe when it comes to speaking English?


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## Scholiast

Greetings once more



> Is there a rule for when to pronounce it like ng and ​ŋ?



Unfortunately not. The "default setting" appears to be that intervocalic ŋ is not then followed by a guttural g ("stinger", "hangar", "clinger", "flinging", "banger"), so may be the others ("fiŋger", "aŋger", "Birmiŋgham" [in the local argot]) have to be learned as exceptions to the "rule".

I'd be interested if anyone can suggest refinements to this principle.

Σ


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## L.P. Translator

Scholiast said:


> Greetings once more
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately not. The "default setting" appears to be that intervocalic ŋ is not then followed by a guttural g ("stinger", "hangar", "clinger", "flinging", "banger"), so may be the others ("fiŋger", "aŋger", "Birmiŋgham" [in the local argot]) have to be learned as exceptions to the "rule".
> 
> I'd be interested if anyone can suggest refinements to this principle.
> 
> Σ



Greetings to you 

I'd be interested on hearing more on this subject too.


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## sumelic

The main rule is that words can never end with /ŋg/, only /ŋ/. In general, the words that have an intervocalic /ŋ/ are derivatives of words that end in /ŋ/, so we have /sɪŋ/ and /sɪŋɚ/, /haŋ/ and /haŋɚ/ and so on. If there is no related word that ends in /ŋ/, the sequence "ng" is probably pronounced with an /ŋg/ or /ndʒ/, as in finger /fɪŋgɚ/, anger /aŋgɚ/, manger /mandʒɚ/: there are no related words "fing" or "ang".


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## PaulQ

Google Books' extracts from "English Accents and Dialects" By Arthur Hughes, Peter Trudgill, Dominic Watt has some useful observations on /ŋg/ and /ŋ/. (The word "dinghy" is interesting.)


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## duvija

Do you realize that the sound in 'finger' is NOT the same as the one in 'singer' ?


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## PaulQ

As I say finger and singer, I can note no difference.


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## Scholiast

Greetings once more

I am moved to wonder where PaulQ (# 19) would locate his accent, as in what I take to be (British) RP, there is a clearly audible difference between "fiŋger" and "siŋer (singer)" (or between "aŋger" and "baŋer" ("banger")).

Σ


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## PaulQ

My accent was formed in Derby in your much maligned East Midlands, an accent that bears little immediate relationship to Birmingham's. I spent the next 20 years in East Yorkshire where, as far as I can recall, there is also no distinction between _singer _and _finger_. To me, the 'b' apart, there is no difference at all between _anger _and _banger_, and _sinner _is close to /siŋer/ (which is all but impossible for me to say without hesitant thought) and nothing like _singer_.

Edit to add:
Hunting shooting, and fishing.
Upper-class = huntən, shootən, an fishən 
Lower class = ‘untɪn, shootɪn, n fishɪn
Some parts of the UK = Huntɪŋg, shootɪŋg  ʌnd fishɪŋg


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## Scholiast

Greetings again


PaulQ said:


> My accent was formed in Derby in your much maligned East Midlands...


Far be it from me, brought up from the age of eight, until I left school, in Nottingham (though of mixed London/Glaswegian parentage), to malign the East Midlands. And, now I come to think of it, there are traces of ...ŋ*g*... there too, in words such as "singer", "ringer", "banger" - where (I would still maintain) RP does not sound the g.

Σ


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## duvija

So PaulQ has no difference between derivation and inflection?


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## L.P. Translator

I can but delightfully notice how with my thread I managed again to spark a peaceful and intelligent linguistical debate on the English language - in the hope, of course, of receiving one day an English citizenship honoris causa 

Please keep this coming!


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## duvija

L.P. Translator said:


> I can but delightfully notice how with my thread I managed again to spark a peaceful and intelligent linguistical debate on the English language - in the hope, of course, of receiving one day an English citizenship honoris causa
> 
> Please keep this coming!



My people at the Linguistics Dept. gave me once a pin that read: "Honorable Native English Speaker. Allowed to make puns"


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## london calling

Scholiast said:


> And, now I come to think of it, there are traces of ...ŋ*g*... there too, in words such as "singer", "ringer", "banger" - where (I would still maintain) RP does not sound the g.


Hello everyone. My accent is classed as Standard Southern British English: I most certainly do not sound the g in singer (which I pronounce siŋer), but I do sound it in finger i.e. fiŋger.

Leonardo, I have lived in Italy for the past thirty-odd years. My surname ends in -ing (pronounced /ɪŋ/). I notice you say that you are "not the first to think to think to (sic) /ŋ/ as a /g/ - in Italy that's the norm!": very few people here pronounce my surname with a /g/, believe me.


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## L.P. Translator

duvija said:


> My people at the Linguistics Dept. gave me once a pin that read: "Honorable Native English Speaker. Allowed to make puns"



How can I obtain such a thing?


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## L.P. Translator

london calling said:


> Hello everyone. My accent is classed as Standard Southern British English: I most certainly do not sound the g in singer (which I pronounce siŋer), but I do sound it in finger i.e. fiŋger.
> 
> Leonardo, I have lived in Italy for the past thirty-odd years. My surname ends in -ing (pronounced /ɪŋ/). I notice you say that you are "not the first to think to think to (sic) /ŋ/ as a /g/ - in Italy that's the norm!": very few people here pronounce my surname with a /g/, believe me.



Very interesting, may I ask you in which region of Italy you live? Maybe it's a regional thing.


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## london calling

My location (i.e. where I live) is written in the box on the upper right-hand side of all my posts and I work in Naples.  Not that that makes much difference, in my opinion: I have travelled all over Italy and am in daily contact with Italians from various parts of the country. People very rarely mispronounce my surname (although they may misunderstand it at first).


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## e2efour

At least half the population of the UK (roughly the north) _always_ pronounce ŋ as ŋg (e.g. /siŋginŋg/ for singing).
Having grown up in the north, I tend to pronounce dinghy with a clear g sound, although the RP pronuncation is diŋy.


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## Scholiast

Greetings once more

The knives are out now:





> At least half the population of the UK (roughly the north)


 (thus e2efour).

Such a thiŋ as ŋg would never be heard north of the border except in "finger", "anger", or "strangler". All of which might be erroneously attributed to Glaswegians.

Σ


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## e2efour

"Until perhaps about 1600, everyone pronounced words of this kind [_song, hang, ring_] with a  plosive, a [g]-sound, after the nasal: [bæNg]. And of course you can  still hear this pronunciation in Birmingham, Stoke, Manchester,  Liverpool and even in Sheffield (though not, I think, in Leeds and  Bradford)."
John Wells (http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/wells/yorksdial.htm).

PS I should have said the population of England.


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## L.P. Translator

Hello again,

I've been watching some YouTube videos on the subject. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the "ng" sound just an elongation of the final "n", similarly to what happens to the "r" at the end of words such as _far, car, bar, _etc.?


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## Einstein

L.P. Translator said:


> Hello again,
> 
> I've been watching some YouTube videos on the subject. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the "ng" sound just an elongation of the final "n", similarly to what happens to the "r" at the end of words such as _far, car, bar, _etc.?


No, it's not! The "n" sound is formed near the front of the mouth, while the "ng" is formed where we form the (hard) "g". Prepare to say the "g", but instead of exploding it make a continuous sound through your nose. The "ng" has the same relationship to "g" as "m" has to "b".

Chinese names are spelt in Europe with English phonetics and it's interesting to notice how the Italians have no idea about this and pronounce Hong Kong with a very strong final "g". (mods please don't consider this irrelevant to a discussion about English pronunciation).

PS You can open your mouth wide while you say "ng", but not while you say "n".


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## PaulQ

Yes, but in 'ng' the 'n' has a "hint of the nasal" about it. Compare 'thin', 'thing' and thingy: /θɪn/; /θɪŋ/; /ˈθɪŋgi.


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## L.P. Translator

Einstein said:


> No, it's not! The "n" sound is formed near the front of the mouth, while the "ng" is formed where we form the (hard) "g". Prepare to say the "g", but instead of exploding it make a continuous sound through your nose. The "ng" has the same relationship to "g" as "m" has to "b".
> 
> Chinese names are spelt in Europe with English phonetics and it's interesting to notice how the Italians have no idea about this and pronounce Hong Kong with a very strong final "g". (mods please don't consider this irrelevant to a discussion about English pronunciation).
> 
> PS You can open your mouth wide while you say "ng", but not while you say "n".



Nice to see you again Einstein, this is all very interesting.

Can we say then that the "ng" sound is similar to an elongated "n" but pronounced with your mouth open and your tongue rearwards? Also, I now understand how to say "sing" correctly, but how to say "singing"!? Does it sound like "sining?" 



PaulQ said:


> Yes, but in 'ng' the 'n' has a "hint of the nasal" about it. Compare 'thin', 'thing' and thingy: /θɪn/; /θɪŋ/; /ˈθɪŋgi.



This too is very explanatory, thank you.


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## sound shift

L.P. Translator said:


> Also, I now understand how to say "sing" correctly, but how to say "singing"!? Does it sound like "sining?"


No. "Sinning" is pronounced differently from "singing" in all varieties of English. /ŋ/ occurs twice in "singing".


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## L.P. Translator

Then I'm really confused - I can't help pronouncing it either like "sinning" or "seeghin" (made up word).


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## sound shift

You say you can pronounce "sing" correctly, so you must be able to pronounce /ŋ/. Just say "sing" and then repeat it, minus the "s".


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## Einstein

L.P. Translator said:


> Can we say then that the "ng" sound is similar to an elongated "n" but pronounced with your mouth open and your tongue rearwards? *Yes*
> 
> Also, I now understand how to say "sing" correctly, but how to say "singing"!? Does it sound like "sining?" *Not really. We also have the verb "sin" and say "sinning". It doesn't sound the same. You must practice saying "inginginginginging".*


PS I see soundshift has preceded me on this point.


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## L.P. Translator

Actually my problem is saying the "ging" part in "singing" without the "G", and not the "ing" alone


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## PaulQ

sound shift said:


> No. "Sinning" is pronounced differently from "singing" in all varieties of English. /ŋ/ occurs twice in "singing".


I think this shows the varieties of English pronunciation: I (also from Derby) would say /sɪŋgɪŋg/ I find /sɪŋɪŋ/ impossible to say and I would take /sɪŋgɪŋ/ as the southern (RP) pronunciation. The good news for L.P. Translator is that any combination of ŋg/ŋ will be understood and sound OK.


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## L.P. Translator

PaulQ said:


> I think this shows the varieties of English pronunciation: I (also from Derby) would say /sɪŋgɪŋg/ I find /sɪŋɪŋ/ impossible to say and I would take /sɪŋgɪŋ/ as the southern (RP) pronunciation. The good news for L.P. Translator is that any combination of ŋg/ŋ will be understood and sound OK.



Good news indeed Paul, and you can call me Leonardo


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## sound shift

Despite Paul's comment that I am "also from Derby", I _can _say /sɪŋɪŋ/, which I don't regard as _just _the southern pronunciation: it does occur in parts of the Midlands and parts of the North. I do agree, though, that it's not going to cause a diplomatic incident if you use /ŋg/.


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## L.P. Translator

The more I practice, the better it sounds. I think I'm going to say "singing" all day long 

Too bad I don't have an English teacher to hear me at hand at the moment.


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## duvija

You can find an example here, but of course it's only one dialect (and they don't say which one).


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## Scholiast

Greetings once again

Perhaps L.P. could practise, and record for us, some real singing - at which Italians are so much better than we.

Σ


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## L.P. Translator

Scholiast said:


> Greetings once again
> 
> Perhaps L.P. could practise, and record for us, some real singing - at which Italians are so much better than we.
> 
> Σ



Please don't tempt me - I love singing but never having performed in public I really don't know whether that would be a pleasant experience


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## L.P. Translator

duvija said:


> You can find an example here, but of course it's only one dialect (and they don't say which one).



That does sound like SinGin'. The final ing is becomes "ŋ" but you can clearly hear the man saying "SinGin'".


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## ewie

L.P. Translator said:


> That does sound like SinGin'. The final ing is becomes "ŋ" but you can clearly hear the man saying "SinGin'".


 There's absolutely no doubt in my ears that he says /sɪŋɪŋ/ not /sɪŋgɪŋ/


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## L.P. Translator

ewie said:


> There's absolutely no doubt in my ears that he says /sɪŋɪŋ/ not /sɪŋgɪŋ/



I trust you, being you a native English speaker. I think my ears need recalibration


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## PaulQ

ewie said:


> There's absolutely no doubt in my ears that he says /sɪŋɪŋ/ not /sɪŋgɪŋ/


You're right. I know because I can't copy him.


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## L.P. Translator

PaulQ said:


> You're right. I know because I can't copy him.



I think some sound is missing in our repertoire PaulQ, I just can't get it right. I keep hearing "sinGing"


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