# 不很大



## yuechu

大家好！

I read the following sentence on someone's blog today: "尽管魁北克城市*不很大*，老城区更是可以靠暴走就能轻松转遍各处，但要真正领略这个城市的美妙，感受其风土民情，还需把节奏放慢下来，细细地体验品味。"
I was wondering, does "魁北克城市不很大" sound more literary than if it had been "魁北克城市不是很大"? Is there any difference between these two sentences?
Thanks!


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## Skatinginbc

「魁北克城市」是什麼東西？應該是「魁北克城」或「魁北克市」吧！
「魁北克城不很大」比「魁北克市不很大」好，因為後者聽起來像是「魁北克是不很大」.
「魁北克市不很大」又比「魁北克市不是很大」好，因為後者有點兒繞口，「市不是」(是不是)？

至於意義的區別，就看是否要強調「是」(的確 as in 是不很大；or 否定對方 as in 不是很大).  在這個語境下，好像沒必要，所以不用畫蛇添足，多加個「是」.


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## SuperXW

Hi Yuechu, the blog is not a language textbook, so it may use some very casual, colloquial expressions which may not be perfectly grammatical. 
Strictly speaking, the sentence should better be 魁北克城不是很大.
But people can still get it as as we often talks in this way: 魁北克, 城市不太大...


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## Sylvia_scj

"不很大" is not proper. It's not even acceptable as casual language. So just ignore it. Usually, we say "不是很大“ or ”不算很大“.


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## solidtext

Skatinginbc said:


> 「魁北克城市」是什麼東西？應該是「魁北克城」或「魁北克市」吧！
> 「魁北克城不很大」比「魁北克市不很大」好，因為後者聽起來像是「魁北克是不很大」.
> 「魁北克市不很大」又比「魁北克市不是很大」好，因為後者有點兒繞口，「市不是」(是不是)？
> 
> 至於意義的區別，就看是否要強調「是」(的確 as in 是不很大；or 否定對方 as in 不是很大).  在這個語境下，好像沒必要，所以不用畫蛇添足，多加個「是」.



I assume when he/she says "魁北克城市", he/she was using the same approach as we would say with "the city of Quebec". An emphasis was put on the "*city*" . When reading the "魁北克城市*不很大*", I could map out a longer version as "魁北克这座城市*不算很大*" . Basically we can't say this is a wrong expression...

Just personal opinion.


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## Skatinginbc

大城通常都會形成一個自然相連的metropolitan area (e.g., Quebec City and area, the Greater Vancouver, etc.).  倘若要指 Quebec City proper (the city of Quebec or Quebec City)，最好就用專有名詞「魁北克市」 (武斷劃分出來的行政區域).

我住溫哥華.  The City of Vancouver 其實不大，不包括北溫，西溫，及其他熱鬧、高樓林立的衛星城區(譬如列治文、本那比等等).  你要是說「溫哥華這個城市不大」，我會愣一下，想想「這個城市」是不是狹義的溫哥華 (人口僅僅六十多萬 vs. 大溫哥華 250萬左右). 然而, 你若說「奧克拉荷馬這座城市不大」，我肯定會把「這座城市」理解為「市區」 (人口、建築物密集，商業繁榮的地區), 因為「奧克拉荷馬市」(Oklahoma City)這個行政區域，幅員廣大，包含了人煙稀少的一大片土地.

換句話說，「城市」可能指一個行政區，或一個人口密集的地方，倒底是何種解釋，需要一點 background knowledge.  在沒有背景資料的情況下，一座城市的「座」似乎暗示是一個自然形成一體的城市區，可超越人為劃定的行政界線.

.


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## Tom Greenhill

Skatinginbc said:


> 「魁北克城市」是什麼東西？應該是「魁北克城」或「魁北克市」吧！


COOOOOOOL!

3. Please do not overwhelm the thread starter with too much information. Above all, make sure that the thread starter has received *an adequate and appropriate reply.*

Rule #9. Please keep your language clean and decent. This includes personal inflammatory language as well as obscenities.


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## Tom Greenhill

To the OP:

I agree with solidtext, "魁北克城市不很大" could be an abbreviation of the sentence "*魁北克*这座*城市*并*不*是*很大*"
I've seen many TW and HK bloggers use this kind of expression a lot, and some people in mainland China would consider it as a fashionable speech style.

"不很大" is equivalent to "不是很大" just as you have pointed out.
Although one should try their best to avoid such a "fashionable" yet (frequently) ambiguous speech style.


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## Skatinginbc

「不很大」 is not a Taiwan or Hong Kong invention.  Such sentences as 「不很大的工夫兒」 「這件不很好」 「我們家裡天天兒的花費不很多」 「他們的本錢大概不很多」 「打我母親死了, 他缺奶, 後來不很足壯」 「斬賊的那一把刀不很快」 are included in the 1886 textbook designed to assist the student of colloquial Chinese as spoken in the Qing Empire capital Beijing.

「魁北克(的)市區不很大」 sounds fine and dandy to me.  No grammatical error, no semantic ambiguity.


Tom Greenhill said:


> (frequently) ambiguous speech style.


What is ambiguous about it?  Perhaps an example may help explain your point. To me, the ambiguous part is actually 城市 (城市化的区域即地理学意义上城市的面积), a term of geography (地理学名词), unlike 市 in XX市, which is a 行政區域 (中国的「市」并不是地理学上的城市化区域，而是一个行政区划单位).  In other words, "魁北克这座城市" (地理名词) does not necessarily mean "Quebec City" (or the City of Quebec)(行政區域).


Tom Greenhill said:


> "魁北克城市不很大" could be an abbreviation of the sentence "魁北克这座城市并不是很大"


Yes, it could, but it could also mean 魁北克(的)城市(都)不很大 (like 中國(的)人民(都)不很高). "不很大" is actually the least ambiguous part of that sentence.


Tom Greenhill said:


> (frequently) ambiguous speech style.


It is not restricted to speech.  For example, you may find it in 汉语大辞典: 中篇小说： 篇幅介乎长篇和短篇小说之间的小说，叙述不很铺张，但是可以对社会生活作广泛的描写.
老舍 (滿洲正红旗人，生於北京) 《駱駝樣子》他没有什么模样，使他可爱的是脸上的精神.  头不很大，圆眼，肉鼻子，两条眉很短很粗，头上剃得永远发亮
何蜀 (四川江油人) 《样板戏红岩夭折记》 声音不很大，但是语气份量很重。
曹雪芹 《红楼梦》 这烟火都是各处进贡的,虽不很大,却十分精巧


yuechu said:


> does "魁北克城市不很大" sound more literary than if it had been "魁北克城市不是很大"?


To me, yes.  魁北克市區不很大 indeed sounds more literary than 魁北克市區不是很大 to my ear.


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## Tom Greenhill

Thank you, Skatinginbc, for the clarification on the issue.

Unfortunately, being an authority of Chinese grammar is not a legit justification for your arrogance and your unfriendly reply. I suppose you are well-educated, so please try to avoid replying stuff like "「xxx」是什麼東西？應該是「xx」或「xxxx」吧！" next time. OK?

Now, let's talk about the "不很大" issue. I never know that this expression could be dated back to the Qing Dynasty, so thank you for the information. And yes, "不很大" is not ambiguous, it has only one potential interpretation.

However, is "不很大" an expression being commonly used in daily life? According to my own experience: Nope. Please feel free to ask someone from China, and see if he or she will agree with me.

I would like to remind you that most people learn the language primarily because they want to be able to communicate with others in Chinese, not that they are interested in Chinese literatures or some beautiful early-20th-century-Chinese expressions.

In my perspective, it is important to teach them the "modern daily expression", instead of the "fossil expression".

I won't make any further comments on this issue.


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## Skatinginbc

Tom Greenhill said:


> please try to avoid replying stuff like "「xxx」是什麼東西？應該是「xx」或「xxxx」吧！


I understand 「你是什麼東西」 is offensive because 你(a person) is being equated to an object (東西).  But I don't understand why 「魁北克城市」 (inanimate object) 是什麼東西 is so "_personal inflammatory_" (post #7) since 「魁北克城市」 is not a person (i.e., It is actually a 東西: 泛指各种具体或抽象的事物) and not something made up by the original poster (i.e., My remark was obviously not meant to put the OP down).  Are such sentences as 「蒟蒻是什么东西？多吃好吗？」, 「『寒天』是什麼東西呀?」, 「图片里墙上的那个是什么东西？应该是安防类的东西」 offensive to you?  After reading the subsequent posts, I've gathered that 「魁北克城市」是什麼東西 might be construed as "condescending" to some people because they might actually make utterances like 「魁北克城市」.  I was the first person to reply to the original post, and honestly little did I expect that 「XXX城市」 would be common in Mainland China.  All I knew was that 「魁北克城市」 sounded "awkward" (which I thought was an important piece of information that a language learner should know) and 「不很大」 fine and dandy to my ear.  As far as I know, 「不很大」 is a living expression (as you have admitted in #8 that "many TW and HK bloggers use this kind of expression a lot"), and I frankly don't know and am not able to foretell what constitutes "modern daily expression" and "fossil expression" in Mainland China.  I guess you regard my reply as a violation of the forum rules for not being "_adequate and appropriate_" (post #7) because it did not reflect the actual language in Mainland China.  I got the message: _If one's response doesn't reflect Mainland Mandarin, he shouldn't be posting here_.

By the way, I consciously use traditional characters in most, if not all, of my posts to constantly remind people that my opinion does not reflect the Mainland standard, with which I am not familiar at all.  My native language is given as 國語，which is not a common Mainland expression for Standard Mandarin--another clue that my opinion may not reflect the Mainland standard.

「魁北克視區不很大」==> 魁北克「視區」是什麼東西？ 是魁北克「市區」吧！
你若能接受上面的例子，不感到 offensive, 就說明不是我的語氣有問題, 而是我的意見和你的認知不符，因此無意之間冒犯了你.


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## Ivan the Immigrant

*不*
*Bù*
*很*
*hěn *
*大*
*dà*

*Not very big*

*= *

*小*
Xiǎo

*Small*

...I guess..:dunno:


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## yuechu

Thank you all for your replies! I appreciate hearing about both the Mainland Chinese and Taiwan standards (and others!). I think there may be some regional differences about the acceptability of this expression, which is ok! I hope no one has been offended by anything in this thread. We are all here to discuss language together 
 謝謝大家的幫助！


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