# FR: On ne peut pas faire de (la) natation



## Emster

I want to say a few phrases, such as 'you can't swim' and can't find anywhere that gives me a definite rule about when to use *de* to replace the indefinite article after a negative. 

Is it 'on ne peut pas faire *de* natation' or still 'on ne peut pas faire *de la* natation'? It's driving me mad!!
Please help me!!!


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## Seeda

Both are possible, it really depends on the context.
Do you mean 'you can't swim' as in 'you're (one is) not allowed to swim here because it's too dangerous'? Then you can simply go for: _On ne peut pas nager_.


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## Emster

Seeda said:


> Both are possible, it really depends on the context.
> Do you mean 'you can't swim' as in 'you're (one is) not allowed to swim here because it's too dangerous'? Then you can simply go for: _On ne peut pas nager_.



No - I'm talking about what there is to do in an area of England. I'm saying 'you can swim, play tennis etc, but you can't....'


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## Seeda

In this case, you can say _On ne peut pas faire de la natation _or _faire de natation_, both are heard. However, in an affirmative sentence, it's always _de la natation_.


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## Aoyama

But then you are right, a negative sentence would normally forbid the article. 
"On ne peut pas faire de différence".
But use of article is possible, in some cases :
"on ne peut pas faire de (la) musique après 22h".
"On ne peut pas faire de/du piano sans demander l'autorisation".
It depends ...


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## Emster

Thanks - that was what I was thinking, which is why I have been really confused about it! Is there a rule for when it is allowed, or do you have to guess?! When I have asked French native speakers before they haven't seemed too sure.


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## Aoyama

I have asked some "higher" brass, let's wait. I find myself, awkwardly enough, unable to come up with a real kosher explanation (that happens).


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## arsham

Usually, when faire is used as a light verb it governs "de" if no amount or quantity is specified:
_ faire du vélo/de la natation/de la corde etc_
but
_ faire une série de traction_.


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## Emster

Thanks for all your help! I thought it wasn't as simple as all that! I will continue with my 'on ne peut pas faire de natation' then!


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## Maître Capello

If you just want to say that you can't do it, you should use only _de_.

_On ne peut pas faire *de* natation.
_
On the other hand, if you oppose the thing(s) you can't do to the thing(s) you can do, you can add the definite article, although it is not required.

_On ne peut pas faire *de (la)* natation, mais on peut faire du tennis._

See also the following related discussions:
FR: (ne pas) aimer (manger/boire) + de / article partitif (du, de la) / défini (le, la)
FR: je n'écoute pas de (la) musique
FR: pas de/du chocolat / pas de/du piano


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## Aoyama

But then, I guess my two examples :
"on ne peut pas faire de (la) musique après 22h"
"On ne peut pas faire de/du piano sans demander l'autorisation"
 are correct though there is no real opposition here ...


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## Maître Capello

Well, in your examples there is indeed an implied opposition because you specify a condition:

_On ne peut pas faire de (la) musique après 22h_ → mais on peut en faire avant.
_On ne peut pas faire de/du piano sans demander l'autorisation_ → mais on peut en faire si on la demande.

But without that condition, you would use only _de_, wouldn't you?


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## CapnPrep

Maître Capello said:


> Well, in your examples there is indeed an implied opposition because you specify a condition:


The idea of opposition only really works for a simple negated verb, and it's not just any implied opposition, but one specifically relating to the direct object. Adapting your previous sentence, for example: _On ne fait pas de la natation, mais du tennis._ I don't think you would normally say _On ne fait pas de la musique après 22h, mais avant_.

The difference in the examples in this thread is that the negation is not directly on the verb _faire_, but on a different verb (_pouvoir_). As indicated in the first two threads linked to above (in #10), both ordinary indefinite articles (_un/une_, _de la_, _du_, etc.) and the reduced article _de_ are possible in sentences with this structure, without necessarily implying any opposition. The relevant quote from Grevisse is given by Anne345 in another thread, here.


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## Maître Capello

CapnPrep said:


> I don't think you would normally say _On ne fait pas de la musique après 22h, mais avant_.


Well, it just depends on what you want to say. As a matter of fact, if you want to stress that one should play music *before* 10pm (and not afterwards), the sentence sounds quite natural. Alternatively one would say:

_On fait de la musique *avant* 22h, pas après_.


> both ordinary indefinite articles (_un/une_, _de la_, _du_, etc.) and the reduced article _de_ are possible in sentences with this structure, without necessarily implying any opposition.


Yes, I agree that you *can* also use the article without any idea of opposition, but for some reason it doesn't sound as natural to me as just _de_.


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## Aoyama

CapnPrep said:


> (...) Adapting your previous sentence, for example: _On ne fait pas de la natation, mais du tennis._ I don't think you would normally say _On ne fait pas de la musique après 22h, mais avant_.
> 
> The difference in the examples in this thread is that the negation is not directly on the verb _faire_, but on a different verb (_pouvoir_). As indicated in the first two threads linked to above (in #10), both ordinary indefinite articles (_un/une_, _de la_, _du_, etc.) and the reduced article _de_ are possible in sentences with this structure, without necessarily implying any opposition. The relevant quote from Grevisse is given by Anne345 in another thread, here.


I agree on both counts .


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## Bluelady

Hello everybody,
CapnPrep is right (Adapting your previous sentence ... _mais avant_). But I'm not sure this is related with the verb _pouvoir_. Anyway, _On ne peut pas faire de la natation, mais du tennis _is perfect. In the case of no phrase beginning with _mais_ like here, the sentence must be : _on ne peut pas faire de natation._


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## Aoyama

> In the case of no phrase beginning with _mais_ like here, the sentence must be : _on ne peut pas faire de natation_


I wouldn't say "must be", because _on ne peut pas faire de la natation _without any following clause is possible, though true, "de" only is grammatically what should be expected.


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## Bluelady

@ Aoyama : yes, thinking it twice, you're right. Maybe because, as written above, _faire de la natation _is a kind of COD, the presence of _faire _allows _de la _to be unchanged.


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