# Hindi, Urdu: jaanvaroN ke giroh (collective nouns)



## aevynn

dosto,

*nichoR.* maiN jaanvaroN se waabastaa/h urduu/hindii/hindustaanii/... ke _collective nouns_ ke baare meN jaannaa chaahtaa huuN 

*byaurevaar.* jaise ki(h) aap sab jaante hii hoN_ge, inglish kii ek xaaSiyat (yaa 3ajiibiyat?) hai ki(h) jaanvaroN ke girohoN ke liye jaanvar ke qism ke mutaabiq DheroN _collective nouns_ haiN. in_meN se bahuteroN se to meraa kabhii _dictionaries_ yaa _word lists_ ke baahar paalaa nahiiN paRaa, lekin kuchh haiN jo rozmarraa/h kii zubaan kaa HiSSaa/h haiN: _school of fish, flock of birds, herd of deer, pack of wolves, gaggle of geese_, waGairah. in _collective nouns_ meN thoRii _"specificity"_ hai: maslan, _flock of birds_ ke saath-saath _flock of sheep_ bhii chaltaa hai, lekin _flock of horses_ sunne meN 3ajiib lagtaa hai; yaa phir, _dolphins_ ke liye _pod_ yaa _school_ donoN chalte haiN, lekin _pack_ 3ajiib lagtaa hai.

kyaa bolchaal kii hindii/urduu/... meN bhii aise _"specific" collective nouns_ haiN?

baat shuruu3 karne ke liye, mujhe is _context_ meN ye(h) chaar-paanch shabd yaad aate haiN. in sab ke baare meN bhii mere kuchh sawaal haiN, aur agar in_ko lekar merii ko'ii Galat-fahmii ho to bataa'iye_gaa.
​jhunD -- "jhunD" to shaayad lag-bhag har qism ke jaanvaroN kaa hotaa hai: bakriyoN kaa, hiranoN kaa, panchhiyoN, haathiyoN, machhliyoN, saaNpoN, insaanoN kaa --- aur yahaaN tak ki(h) peRoN kaa bhii! meraa matlab hai ki(h) "jhunD" meN inglish ke jaanvaroN-waale _collective nouns_ jitnii "_specificity"_ shaayad nahiiN hai...?​​dal -- is _forum_ pe(h) _search_ maaraa to @Qureshpor jii se siikhne ko milaa ki(h) TiDDoN ke giroh ko "TiDDii-dal" kahte haiN  kyaa TiDDoN ke 3alaawaa/h aur bhii ko'ii jaanvar hai jis_ke giroh ko 3aam taur par "dal" hii kahaa jaataa hai? (Google par aur bhii bahut saare jaanvaroN ke "dal" milte haiN: bandaroN ke, ghoRoN ke, machhliyoN ke, panchhiyoN ke, machchharoN ke, waGairah. lekin Google par to _flock of horses_ bhii mil jaataa hai...).​​rewaR, gallaa/h -- ye(h) donoN shabd 3aam taur par shaayad khur-waale jaanvaroN ke liye iste3maal hote haiN: bheR, bakrii, gaa'e, bhaiNs, ghoRaa, uuNT, waGairah. kyaa ye(h) kisii aur taraH ke jaanvar ke liye bhii iste3maal hote haiN? kyaa ko'ii aisaa jaanvar hai jis_ke giroh ko "rewaR" kah(h) sakte haiN magar "gallaa/h" nahiiN? yaa jis ko "gallaa/h" kahte haiN aur "rewaR" nahiiN?​​TukRii -- ye(h) shabd kabhii-kabhii panchhiyoN ke giroh ke liye iste3maal hotaa hai (kabuutar, waGairah). kyaa "TukRii" 3aam taur par kisii aur taraH ke jaanvar ke liye bhii iste3maal hotaa hai?​
kyaa aap_ko in_ke 3alaawaa/h aur bhii ko'ii _collective noun_ dhyaan meN aataa hai (xaaS taur par jo shabdkoShoN-luGatoN ke baahar, bolchaal meN iste3maal hotaa ho)?

madad ke liye aap sab kaa bahut-bahut shukriyaa/h!


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## Happu

An interesting question and quite important vocabulary, methinks.

_JhuND _and _samuuh _can mean both, a herd (of cattle, animals) and a flock (of birds). _JhuND_ should also cover your 'pack' of wolves and _samuuh_ your 'gaggle' of geese.

I'm not sure about _giroh_, though; I've only ever heard it in the sense of a gang/group of people. Can it apply to animals, too?


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## littlepond

For _bandar _or_ laNgoor_, _dal _is used, though _Tolii _is the most frequent in my experience. Can also use _giroh _(for other animals too that hunt in a pack, etc.). _dal _can be used for many (all?) types of birds and insects (and other flying creatures), in my experience. _TiDDii-dal _is a very commonly used term.

Meanwhile, _jhunD_ for trees, too? Sounds strange. Especially when there is a nice word for a grove of trees: _jhurmuT_.

_TukRii_, I guess, can also be used for army units (horses, elephants, etc.)?

Meanwhile, in case you haven't read it, I think it was Conan Doyle's novel _Sir Nigel_, which has a lot of collective nouns for different animals in English. I had learnt a lot when I read it as a child (though I don't remember most of them now).


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## littlepond

Happu said:


> _JhuND_ should also cover your 'pack' of wolves and _samuuh_ your 'gaggle' of geese.



"samuuh" is more used for people: of course, as it is a generic word for a group, it can be used for any animal or bird, too. Meanwhile, I would rather use "bheRiyoN kaa giroh/kii Tolii" and "battakhoN kaa jhunD/dal."


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## Happu

_MachliyoN kaa juND _should be 'school of fish', though on the internet one also finds _'skuul'_ instead of _jhuND_, obviously a direct translation from English.

A 'pod' of dolphins would also be _jhuND,_ I assume. Again, on the net one finds the direct translation _phalii,_ which I'm not sure would make sense to the average native speaker.


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## littlepond

Note also, @aevynn jii, that in Hindi, words for a group, except the generic word such as "samooh," have certain connotations: so a "dal" of lions feels differently than "giroh" of lions, which feels different to a "Tolii" of lions. A "dal" of lions feels more like a team of lions, a "professional" outfit; a "giroh" feels more like lions on the prowl or ready to be on the prowl; a "Tolii" of lions feels more like a fraternity of lions, a chummy set of lions (they could be playing or hunting, that doesn't matter).

And so on, for all the words, except of course the generic "samooh" (used not so much anyway for non-humans).


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## Happu

littlepond said:


> Meanwhile, in case you haven't read it, I think it was Conan Doyle's novel _Sir Nigel_, which has a lot of collective nouns for different animals in English. I had learnt a lot when I read it as a child (though I don't remember most of them now).


A sloth / sleuth of bears comes to mind. Then there's the odd term 'murder of crows'.


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## littlepond

I forgot to mention that there's the -aa counterpart to _Tolii_, too: _Tolaa_. Both are used a lot.

They can be used for humans, too, just like the other words, without being poetic.


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## Alfaaz

aevynn said:
			
		

> kyaa aap_ko in_ke 3alaawaa/h aur bhii ko'ii _collective noun_ dhyaan meN aataa hai (xaaS taur par jo shabdkoShoN-luGatoN ke baahar, bolchaal meN iste3maal hotaa ho)?


mazkuurah-e-baalaa alfaaz ke 3ilaawah mundarajah-e-zail alfaaz bhii Urdu meN ba-kasrat musta3mal milte haiN (siyaaq-o-sabaaq ke mutaabiq):

جوق - _jauq_
غول - _Ghaul_
جتھا - _jathaa/jaththaa_
جرگہ - _jargah_
لشکر - _lashkar_
جمعِ غفیر - _jam3-e-Ghafiir_
ہجوم - _hujuum_
وغیرہ -_ waGhairah_
Many of these words can be used for both animals and humans._ _

Relevant quote from _Fann-e-Khataabat_:


> اسی طرح بعض جانداروں اور غیر جانداروں کی بھیڑ کے لئے خاص الفاظ مقرر ہیں جو اسم جمع کی حیثیت رکھتے ہیں مثلاً طلباء کی جماعت، رندوں کا حلقہ، پرندوں کا غول، بھیڑوں کا گلہ، بکریوں کا ریوڑ، گؤوں کا چونا، مکھیوں کا جھلڑ، تاروں کا جھرمٹ یا جھومر، آدمیوں کی بھیڑ، جہازوں کا بیڑا، ہاتھیوں کی ڈار، کبوتروں کی ٹکڑی، بانسوں کا جنگل، درختوں کا جھنڈ، اناروں کا کنج، بدمعاشوں کی ٹولی، سواروں کا دستہ، انگور کا گچھا، ٹڈی دل، کیلوں کی گہل، ریشم کا لچھا، مزدوروں کا جتھا، فوج کا پرّہ، روٹیوں کی تھئی، لکڑیوں کا گٹھا، کاغذوں کی گڈی، خطوں کا طومار، بالوں کا گچھا، پانوں کی ڈھولی، کلابتو کی کنجی۔
> 
> از فنِّ خطابت - آغا شورش کاشمیری - (صفحہ ۱۰۶)​


Transliteration:

_isii tarH ba3z jaan-daaroN aur Ghair jaan-daaroN kii bhiiR ke li'e xaaS alfaaz muqarrar haiN jo ism-e-jam3 kii Haisiyyat rakhte haiN masal-an talabaa2 kii jamaa3at, rindoN kaa Halqah, parandoN kaa Ghaul, bheRoN kaa gallah, bakriiyoN kaa revaR, gau2oN kaa chaunaa, makhkhiiyoN kaa jhillaR, taaroN kaa jhurmaT yaa jhuumar, aadamiiyoN kii bhiiR, jahaazoN kaa beRaa, haathiiyoN kii Daar, kabuutaroN kii TukRii, baaNsoN kaa jangal, daraxtoN kaa jhunD, anaaroN kaa kunj, bad-ma3aashoN kii Tolii, sawaaroN kaa dastah, anguur kaa guchchaa, TiDDii dal, keloN kii gahal, resham kaa lachchaa, mazduuroN kaa jathaa, fauj kaa parrah, roTiiyoN kii tha2ii, lakriiyoN kaa gaThThaa, kaaGhazoN kii gaDDii, xattoN kaa tuumaar, baaloN kaa guchchaa, paanoN kii Dholii, kalaabattuu kii kunjii._​​_az fann-e-khataabat - aaGhaa shorish kaashmiirii - (SafHah 106)_​
(The book is currently available here.)


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## aevynn

Thank you all! This is a lot of information that I'm very happy to have and that will take me some time to organize properly in my mind. I'll of course appreciate it if you all continued adding information to this thread as it occurs to you (other specific animals? other specific collective nouns?), and I hope others chime in as well. Meanwhile, a few minor comments:



littlepond said:


> Meanwhile, _jhunD_ for trees, too? Sounds strange. Especially when there is a nice word for a grove of trees: _jhurmuT_.


"jhurmuT" sach meN bahut hii pyaaraa shabd hai  maiN_ne lekin "peRoN kaa jhunD" sunaa bhii hai aur paRhaa bhii. @Alfaaz jii kii kwoT meN "peRoN kaa" nahiiN magar "daraxtoN kaa jhunD" aataa hai, aur nirmal varmaa kii nauval "raat kaa riporTar" meN ye(h) likhaa hu'aa miltaa hai:


> शंकर रोड, विलिंगडन अस्पताल। पीछे की तरफ़ *पेड़ों का झुंड* था, जहाँ सुबह के वक्त कव्वे और दुपहर की घड़ी हिप्पियों के झुंड दिखाई देते थे।





Alfaaz said:


> غول - _Ghaul_


غول meN "au" kii jagah "o" honaa chaahiye, shaayad? [luGat, Platts, shabd-saagar, ...]



Alfaaz said:


> پرندوں کا غول


kitaab meN پرندوں کا غول shaayad likhaa hu'aa nahiiN hai? agar maiN saHii(H) paRh rahaa huuN, to "rindoN kaa Halqah" ke baad/ba3d siidhaa "bheRoN kaa gallah" likhaa hai...?








Alfaaz said:


> بکریوں کا ریوڑ... bakriiyoN kaa revaR...


maiN_ne is_se pahle "revaR" kaa Sirf mu'annas iste3maal hii dekhaa thaa, lekin zaahir hai ki(h) is_kaa muzakkar iste3maal bhii hotaa hai! 



Alfaaz said:


> گؤوں کا چونا... gau2oN kaa chaunaa


kyaa ko'ii pakkaa bataa saktaa hai ki(h) ye(h) shabd sach meN "chaunaa" hii hai? mujhe na(h) "chaunaa" kisii shabdkosh yaa luGat meN dikhaa, na(h) "chonaa," na(h) [is maanii/ma3nii kaa] "chuunaa." kyaa ho saktaa hai ki(h) yahaaN waa'o kii jagah re, matlab "charnaa" likhaa ho...? (waise to mujhe _collective noun_ vaalaa "charnaa" bhii shabd-saagar, Platts, aur urduu luGat meN nahiiN dikhaa, magar andaazaa/h lagaayaa jaa saktaa hai ki(h) charne vaaloN jaanvaroN ke giroh ko kabhii-kabhaar "charnaa" kahaa jaataa ho...?)


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## Happu

aevynn said:


> kyaa ko'ii pakkaa bataa saktaa hai ki(h) ye(h) shabd sach meN "chaunaa" hii hai? mujhe na(h) "chaunaa" kisii shabdkosh yaa luGat meN dikhaa, na(h) "chonaa," na(h) [is maanii/ma3nii kaa] "chuunaa." kyaa ho saktaa hai ki(h) yahaaN waa'o kii jagah re, matlab "charnaa" likhaa ho...? (waise to mujhe _collective noun_ vaalaa "charnaa" bhii shabd-saagar, Platts, aur urduu luGat meN nahiiN dikhaa, magar andaazaa/h lagaayaa jaa saktaa hai ki(h) charne vaaloN jaanvaroN ke giroh ko kabhii-kabhaar "charnaa" kahaa jaataa ho...?)



_Chaunaa_ in Hindi (छौना) is the young of an animal. 

_Carnaa_ (चरना) is the verb 'to graze', so I would reckon it's unlikely it would also be a collective noun. It would be a unusual way to form a noun.


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## Happu

Btw, has anyone mentioned the Hindi word यूथ / _yuuth _for herd, flock? I assume it's quite rare, and to add confusion, it reads just like the Hindi transliteration of 'youth'.


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## littlepond

Happu said:


> _Chaunaa_ in Hindi (छौना) is the young of an animal.



I think @aevynn jii was asking about a word that would be spelt as चौना (chaunaa). छौना (ch*h*aunaa) is a well-known word.


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## Alfaaz

aevynn said:
			
		

> غول meN "au" kii jagah "o" honaa chaahiye, shaayad?


_durust._


			
				aevynn said:
			
		

> kitaab meN پرندوں کا غول shaayad likhaa hu'aa nahiiN hai? agar maiN saHii(H) paRh rahaa huuN, to "rindoN kaa Halqah" ke baad/ba3d siidhaa "bheRoN kaa gallah" likhaa hai...?


(I had first found the quote in typed versions (on other websites/forums) of the book online and copied it from there, but there were obvious spelling mistakes. The book initially couldn't be located searching with the English transliteration of the title. However, writing the title in Urdu script yielded the version linked above.)


			
				aevynn said:
			
		

> kyaa ko'ii pakkaa bataa saktaa hai ki(h) ye(h) shabd sach meN "chaunaa" hii hai? mujhe na(h) "chaunaa" kisii shabdkosh yaa luGat meN dikhaa, na(h) "chonaa," na(h) [is maanii/ma3nii kaa] "chuunaa."


Platts does have the following:


> — dhan-ćaunā, s.m. A herd of horned cattle


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## Happu

Alfaaz said:


> Platts does have the following: -dhan-ćaunā, s.m. A herd of horned cattle



Interesting, I can't find _ćaunā _in any modern Hindi dictionary. With much difficulty I found a sentence in a book, which talks about 'a group of boats', and after_ samūh_ for 'group', in brackets _ćaunā _is added, as if for clarification.


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## aevynn

Thanks! I guess I did ask for words used outside of dictionaries. It is both unexpected and amusing that this led us to a word that almost can't even be found in dictionaries!


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## littlepond

Has anyone mentioned "guT"? For humans, used for specific subgroupings, but it is also used for animal groups.


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## aevynn

Are there any particular animals for which _guT_ would be a natural choice? Or does using _guT_ connote some particular characteristics of the group, as you very astutely observed in #6 with some of the other collective nouns? Or would it be fairly neutral/universal/bland, like _samuuh_? 

Speaking of #6, are you able to identify a similar connotation associated with _jhunD_? It doesn't feel as bland as _samuuh_ to me, but I've been having trouble articulating what the connotation might be. Wild and out-of-control, perhaps?


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## Happu

aevynn said:


> Are there any particular animals for which _guT_ would be a natural choice?



I'd be curious too, as I only only know _guT _as a political grouping, faction, outfit or organization.


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## littlepond

aevynn said:


> Are there any particular animals for which _guT_ would be a natural choice?



A "guT," I feel, is like "dal," only much less heavy. A "bandaroN kaa guT" would be strange to use (as would be "bandaroN kaa dal"): they are too chummy and naughty for that! But a "haathiyoN kaa guT" or "genDoN kaa guT" would work. It's not the most heavily used word for animals, but I've heard it now and then. It is especially appropriate to describe the small lion families as an alternative to "parivaar."



aevynn said:


> Speaking of #6, are you able to identify a similar connotation associated with _jhunD_? It doesn't feel as bland as _samuuh_ to me, but I've been having trouble articulating what the connotation might be. Wild and out-of-control, perhaps?



To me, at least, "jhunD" gives a strong connotation of a flock: i.e., not for which animals the word "flock" is used, but rather the connotation of flock as in a mass of men/animals which are alike, where one doesn't search for the particulars. So, a _jhunD _can be as much that of wild, romping elephants as of nervous, neem-leaves-eating goats. It's like one has alienated any possibility of a (one's own) personality from every member of the _jhunD_, though, of course, the _jhunD_ in itself may have a well-defined personality (thus, to which, every member of it is supposed to map neatly).


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## aevynn

Thank you, @littlepond jii, for explaining the usage of _guT_. And also for for hitting the nail on the head with _jhunD_  The connotation you describe feels quite right.


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