# again / against



## ThomasK

Sometimes repetition can refer to opposition, contrast, I just realized. 

English: _*again*_ and _*against*_ certainly have the same root. 
German: *wieder* and _*wider*_-, the verb prefix 
Dutch : *weer* and _*weer*_-, id. 

Not so sure but: 
Finnish: *taas*...


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## hui

ThomasK said:


> Not so sure but:
> Finnish: *taas*...



again:
- *taas* ("to back"), taka- (back) > taas
- *jälleen* ("onto one's trail"), jälki (trail) > jäljelleen > jälleen
- *uudelleen* ("onto one's new") < uusi = new
- *uudestaan* ("from one's new")
- *toistamiseen* ("into repeating") < toistaa = repeat; < toinen = second (2nd)

against:
- *vastaan

*


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## ThomasK

I see, but do you sense a link between _*taas*_ and *vas-taan* ? 

I suddenly think of something: *Dutch te-rug*, _back_ in English (rug is the back, the backside of a man), and when one turns one's back to someone, one might perhaps say that one opposes that person (instead of confronting him, which does not sound very friendly either though). 

Normally though _terug_ can only be used to express 'back', maybe 'back again' (but it is on the move in Dutch: back > back AND again - the epidemic (of that 'mistake') is spreading...


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## hui

ThomasK said:


> I see, but do you sense a link between _*taas*_ and *vas-taan* ?



No.


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## ThomasK

That is quite a concise answer, but: any trace in prefixes, in the use that repetition and contrast could be linked? I keep on trying, but don't feel obliged to explore all kinds of possibilities!


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## berndf

ThomasK said:


> Sometimes repetition can refer to opposition, contrast, I just realized.


_Umgekehrt wird ein Schuh draus_, as they we say in German. 

The original meaning were _against, opposite, opposed to _in both English and German. The meanings _again_ or _with_ (_with_ is the English cognate of German _wider_ and the German cognate of again/against is _gegen_ (=_opposite, opposed to_)) are derived.

The best example to explain these shifts is to German word _widerspiegeln _(_= to mirror_) which literally means _to mirror against_, i.e. _to show an opposing mirror image_. But it could easily be interpreted also as _to reflect back_. Accordingly, the verb is frequently misspelled as _wi*e*derspiegeln_. Both spellings would be meaningful.


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## ThomasK

Aha, mistake... Thanks, and I apologize, but my specialties are 'wishful thinking' and jumping to conclusions. So they are all based on contrast, or opposition... Let me think that through and see if it leads to other insights as well. But I'll be more careful... 

But : _umgekehrt wird ein schuh draus_? Does that mean one has to turn the reasoning over in order to arrive at the right (the only) conclusion?


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## berndf

ThomasK said:


> But : _umgekehrt wird ein schuh draus_? Does that mean one has to turn the reasoning over in order to arrive at the right (the only) conclusion?


Exactly.


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## apmoy70

In Greek:
_Again_: «Ξανά» (ksa'na, _adv._); Medieval/Byzantine «ξανὰ» (ksa'na) compound formed by the joining together of the prefix and preposition «ἐk» (ĕk) which becomes «ἐξ» (ĕks) when the next word begins with a vowel-->_out of, from within, upwards_ + preposition «ἀνὰ» (ā'nă)-->_up to, toward, exceedingly, back_. In the Byzantine language, the untressed initial vowel was omitted.
_Against_: «Εναντίον» (enan'dion, _adv._); Medieval/Byzantine «ἐναντίον» (enan'tion) deriving form the Classical adj. «ἐναντίος/ἐναντία/ἐναντίον» (ĕnăn'tīŏs _m._/ĕnăn'tīă _f._/ĕnăn'tīŏn _n._)-->_opposite_. Compound formed by the joining together of the prefix and preposition «ἐν» (ĕn)-->_in_ + prefix and preposition «ἀντὶ» (ān'tĭ)-->_against, opposite, instead of_, earlier form «ἄντα» ('āntă), «ἄντην» ('āntēn).  
I do not think the two are related.


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## ThomasK

I am just wondering, Apmoy and Sakvaka, how you translate _*to*_ *reflect* (like a mirror), because in Dutch and German it contains _weer_, again (_weerspiegelen, widerspiegeln_). 

Of course it just contains _re_-, which can on the other hand - so I now realize - mean 'against', as in _resist_, which certainly does not mean 'stand again'. Etymonline.org confirms that: _re_- meant 'against' first. Here again we are reminded of what Berndf pointed out: the story starts with 'against', and goes on with 'again' - amazingly...


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## jazyk

I see no connection in Portuguese contra (against) and de novo or novamente (again), the latter based on novo (new), just like English anew.


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## hui

ThomasK said:


> That is quite a concise answer, but: any trace in prefixes, in the use that repetition and contrast could be linked? I keep on trying, but don't feel obliged to explore all kinds of possibilities!



There may be a "back-front" link but I am only guessing:

*taka* (back, behind)
*jälki* (trail) > jälkeen = after (lit. "into a trail")

*vasta* (originally maybe: place in front)
*vastaisuudessa*, in the future, i.e., "in front"


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## ThomasK

Thanks, Jazyk. I suppose there is a link, but only in the re- that you have in Portuguese too: as in _to reflect_, to shine against, or back.

@ hui: Would that be like _post-_ and _pro-_ as prefixes? In the meantime Google T does funny things with _*vastaisuudessa*_: it translates the word as _future, advent, toekomst,_ but when I separate _vastai _from _suudessa_ I get 'in contrast with the future', and _vastaa_ as 'reply' (here we go again)... How funny is Google this time ?


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## hui

> Would that be like _post-_ and _pro-_ as prefixes?


I guess...



> In the meantime Google T does funny things with _*vastaisuudessa*_: it translates the word as _future, advent, toekomst,_ but when I separate _vastai _from _suudessa_ I get 'in contrast with the future', and _vastaa_ as 'reply' (here we go again)... How funny is Google this time ?


Neither _*vastai *_nor _*suudessa *_are Finnish words. Clearly, Google T does not understand hyphens between syllables used at the end of line like:
... vastai-
suudessa

Google T: _*vas tai suu dessa!*_ = left foot or the future!
- vas., short for _vasen_ = left
_- tai_ = or
_- suu_ = mouth (not foot)
_- dessa_ = not a Finnish word

The foot in mouth (pun intended) error above is probably caused by correct translation of foot and mouth disease (= _suu- ja sorkkatauti_, lit. "mouth and hoof disease").

Moreover, Google T does not understand that the "definitions" of Finnish suffixes in the dictionary only indicate something but should not be translated as such. Like *-suus (-isuus, -uus, -us)* indicates some kind of content similarly to English *-ness*. But Google T thinks the translation is "content".


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## ThomasK

Tell Google T please! But do tell me: what is _reply_ in Finnish, and is there another word for _future_ in Finnish (shorter) ?


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## hui

> But do tell me: what is _reply_ in Finnish



a reply = _vastaus
_to reply = _vastata
__vastaan_ = I reply
_hän vastaa_ = he/she replies
_vastaa!_ = reply! (imperative)



> and is there another word for _future_ in Finnish (shorter) ?



_tuleva_ = future (adj.); can sometimes be used as substantive: _ennustaa tulevaa _(to tell the future)
_futuuri_ = future tense
_tulevaisuus_ = the future
_vastaisuus_ = the future; almost always (or not?): _vastaisuudessa_ (in the future)
 I just realized that _vastaisuudessa_ often indicates that in the future, we will try not to repeat the past. But if we will try to do the same, then I would say _vastaisuudessa*kin*_ (*also* in the future).


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## rusita preciosa

In Russian there seem to be a connection between "again" and "back / backwards".
Опять /opiat’/ - again
Пятиться /piatitsia/ - to walk backwards, to back up


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## francisgranada

Hungarian: 

_ellen_ - against

_ismét, megint -_ again 
_újból_, _újra_ (_új=_new) - again

_vissza -_ back

(no connection)


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## francisgranada

Slovak: 

_proti_ - against

_zas(e), opäť -_ again 
_znovu_ (_nový=_new) - again

_späť -_ back

(connection between _again_ and _back_)


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## ThomasK

Thnaks, everyone !

Finnish seems to hint at a resemblance, I'd think, when I read the last line.


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## apmoy70

ThomasK said:


> I am just wondering, Apmoy and Sakvaka, how you translate _*to*_ *reflect* (like a mirror), because in Dutch and German it contains _weer_, again (_weerspiegelen, widerspiegeln_)


In Greek:
_Reflect_-->
1/«Αντικατοπτρίζω» (andikatopt'rizo); compound formed by the joining together of the prefix and preposition «ἀντὶ» (ā'ntĭ)-->_against, opposite, instead of _+ verb «κατοπτρίζω» (kătŏp'trīzō)--> _to_ _show as in a mirror_ or _by reflection _(from the neuter noun «κάτοπτρον», 'kătŏptrŏn, _the mirror_)
2/«Ανακλώ» (ana'klo); Classical verb «ἀνακλάω/'ανακλῶ» (ănā'klāō [uncontracted]/ănā'klō [contracted])-->_to bend back, __reflect. _Compound formed by the joining together of the prefix and preposition «ἀνὰ» (ā'nă)-->_up to, toward, exceedingly, back, against, again_ + verb «κλάω/κλῶ» (klāō [uncontracted]/klō [contracted])-->_to deflect, inflect, break, weaken.
_


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## HUMBERT0

The closet sounding in Spanish are Again "*otra*" and Against "*contra*", however no relation 

contra.
(Del lat. contra).

otro, tra.
(Del lat. altĕrum, acus. de alter).

Saludos


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## ThomasK

Mind you, there might be a link. For a second I thought there is -_tra_ in both, but then indeed we'd have to find the etymology of Latin _tra_ (though the otra seems to have its origin in a "non-_tra_ word". I had a quick look at etymonline.org and to my surprise I found : 


> com-teros, from Old L. com "with, together" (see com-) + -tr, zero degree of the comp. suffix -ter-.


There is a link with _extra_, and even with _alter _(-_ter_). But how one could explain this -_ter_ suffix, no idea. It is a comparative of which word - and what is the meaning? How can com (with) + ter result in the opposite. At least alter is similar to _again_ (think of _another_, ...). 

So thanks, Humberto, it proved more interesting than I had thought. 

On the other hand, for anyone not finding resemblances: the apparent '_again_-prefix' (such as _weer_- in Dutch) often refers to the old meaning without us realizing it - as was the case with me.


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## ThomasK

I needed to get six month older - and wiser - to find out that *this mysterious '-ter' *in all those *-tra *words (extra, contra, but also alter) refers to: 



> pie. _*-tero-_ (IEW 37), een achtervoegsel dat een tegenstelling aangaf [_ a suffix that referred to opposition, as in_], als in
> → *achter [behind]*, → *ander [other]*, → *ieder [every]*, wrsch. ook [probably also] in → *neer [down, downwards]*, en zie de leenwoorden [_and see borrowed words such as_] → *contra* en → *et cetera*.


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## jana.bo99

Slovenian:

again - spet
against - proti (two words have nothing to do with each other)

Croatian:

again: opet
against - protiv (the same, as above)

B.


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## ThomasK

You're right, but FrancisG pointed out a resemblance between again and back in _spät _(back) / _zas(e), opäť (_again) in Slovak. I think the *-pet *words _opet/spet _have slighty different meanings in different Slavic languages, varying between 'again' and 'back', but indeed not 'against'.


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## bibax

Czech:

*proti* (OCz protiv) = against;

*opět* = again; (znovu = anew);

*zpět* (OCz vzpět) = back;

Both zpět and opět are derived from the noun *pata* (Protoslav. *pęta*) = heel.

There are verbs derived from proti and zpět: *protiviti se, zpěčovati se*, both mean _to resist, to oppose_.


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## ThomasK

Great information, Bibax, especially the reference to the verbs.  

But one sec: is _heel _English, referring to a part of the foot (the backside, by coincidence)? _(It is not Dutch, meaning 'whole', is it ??? [I think I read some words in Dutch from you]) _


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## bibax

> [I think I read some words in Dutch from you]


No, only Deutsch.


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## ThomasK

Klar ! ;-) Still, it is quite interesting to read that again(st) refer[s] back to 'heel'. Can I really conclude, do you think, that your preposition is based on that noun ?


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## bibax

The preposition *proti* (against) is of IE origin.


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## berndf

ThomasK said:


> Klar ! ;-) Still, it is quite interesting to read that again(st) refer[s] back to 'heel'. Can I really conclude, do you think, that your preposition is based on that noun ?


That's not what he wrote. He wrote the Czech words for _again _and _back _refer to the Czech word for _heel _but not the Czech word for _against_.


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## ThomasK

You're right, I am sorry. (I keep 'thinkng wishfully', thereby ignoring facts, until some - and often the same - smart moderator points out my mistake! ;-) 

But doesn't  *protiviti se, zpěčovati se, *opposing, allow me to hint at a link with 'against' (#27) ?


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## Orlin

ThomasK said:


> But doesn't *protiviti se, zpěčovati se, *opposing, allow me to hint at a link with 'against' (#27) ?


I don't speak Czech, but I'd say the former is almost sure to be related with "against" and I'm not sure about the latter.


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## ThomasK

Couldn't there be other words referring to/ containing 'against' in Slavic languages? I did not realize that before, but in Dutch the weer in some weer verbs just referred to 'against', not to 'anew/again', but of course they are somehow related.


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## ThomasK

In Dutch we even have *a verb "weren" *(like German "wehren"), as in "brandweer" (fire brigade, "fire defense-against"), "afweer" (keeping off...).


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## Dymn

*Catalan *usually translates "again" with the periphrasis _tornar a _+ infinitive, and the primary meaning of _tornar _is "to go/give back".

_torno a cantar _"I'm singing again"
_torno a casa _"I'm going back home"

Same in Spanish with verb "volver" which means "to go back" (not "to give back" which is _devolver_):

_vuelvo a cantar
vuelvo a casa _
(same as above)

I don't know if this is relevant to the thread.


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## ThomasK

Everything is interesting, Dymn. I am just trying to explore meanings and relations between meanings. Now, as for tornar (which reminds me of "tour(ner)", I can imagine a link with repetition only. Is there any opposition implied in "tornare'? Against someone? (Se tourner contre???)

I think 'volver" has to do with "revolution": turning upside down then???

I just wonder, just exploring possible options...


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## berndf

ThomasK said:


> In Dutch we even have *a verb "weren" *(like German "wehren"), as in "brandweer" (fire brigade, "fire defense-against"), "afweer" (keeping off...).


The verb stem _weer-_ a completely different root and only accidentally homonym with _weer=again(st)_ in Dutch because of the loss of the _d_ in the latter.


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## ThomasK

I had not checked it, I must admit. But I thought the semantic parallels (against) seemed so self-evident that the etymological link was self-evident as well. Jumped to conclusions then... Oh, oh... I checked for the Ie. root, but even there the -t- is present. So: I withdraw my theory regarding the link.But I still find the form and semantic parallels somehow amazing. though etymologically not related.


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## Sardokan1.0

Sardinian language works partially like Italian and partially like Catalan, but we have two different versions of "again".

*Again (1)* *= *torra (from the verb "torrare" = to return; we also use the same formula of Catalan "torrare a", the same formula exists also in Corsican language "torna" = again, tornà a + infinitive = to repeat an action)

example :

_- to sing again = torrare a cantare
- to do again = torrare a faghere

- I went to the doctor = so andadu dae su duttore
- again? = torra?_

*Again (2)* *= *ancòra (same of Italian "ancòra", same of French "encore") this second version of "again" matches more or less with english "still" or "yet".

example :

_- are you still here? = ancòra in hoche ses? (in Italian "sei ancòra qui?")
- I haven't been there yet = no bi so ancòra andadu (in Italian "non ci sono ancòra stato")


*Against = *contra / contra a (same of Italian "contro", French "contre", Spanish "contra")

example :

- against your will = contra sa voluntade tua (in Italian "contro la tua volontà")
- against the others = contra a sos àteros (in Italian "contro gli altri")_


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## Ghabi

ThomasK said:


> Sometimes repetition can refer to opposition, contrast


You have to turn you back when you return, and when you oppose someone you turn your back to him, so "to return" and "to oppose" can easily be the same word in a language (cf. Chinese 反). "To return" and "again" can also be related in a language for apparent reasons (Arabic, Spanish etc). But it doesn't follow that "to oppose" and "again" would be related.


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## ThomasK

Good idea, never thought of that of the rationale between returning and opposing.

Now, I did not wish to suggest that any of those semantic links implies anything. I am only interested in factual relations (_again/against_) and the reasons why. And I often wonder whether any of those links could be universal, as seems to be the case with explaining/ clarifying: the light metaphor and the idea of de-taching, dis-entangling (ex-plain) are quite common in quite some languages. What is true, is that I am a wishful thinker and for that reason I do sometimes jump to conclusions.


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## Dymn

ThomasK said:


> I am just trying to explore meanings and relations between meanings. Now, as for tornar (which reminds me of "tour(ner)", I can imagine a link with repetition only. Is there any opposition implied in "tornare'? Against someone? (Se tourner contre???)


It bridges the concepts of repetition ("again") and reversal ("back"), which is more or less the same usage as in _re-_. Not necessarily opposition I think.

You can also say _tornar-se contra _in Catalan, but I'm not sure if the idea of opposition is carried by _contra _itself and not _tornar-se. _By the way _tornar-se_ (pronominal), or _tornar _alone in Majorca can also mean "to turn, to become".

It certainly does not mean "to turn" in the sense of changing one's direction, which is _girar. _Now I think of _se'm gira feina_ (lit. _"_work turns itself to me (?)"), which does show opposition I think.



ThomasK said:


> I think 'volver" has to do with "revolution": turning upside down then???


Latin _volvere _apparently means "to roll" originally. Hence _devolve, revolve, involve, evolve... _There does some to be a link between rotation and reversal/opposition... You need to turn before going back... "To turn one's back on"... In Spanish "to wrap" is _envolver. _In Catalan it's _embolicar_, from _involvicare_, intensive form of _involvere._


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## Sardokan1.0

Dymn said:


> Latin _volvere _apparently means "to roll" originally. Hence _devolve, revolve, involve, evolve... _There does some to be a link between rotation and reversal/opposition... You need to turn before going back... "To turn one's back on"... In Spanish "to wrap" is _envolver. _In Catalan it's _embolicar_, from _involvicare_, intensive form of _involvere._



The same situation happens also between Italian and Sardinian

from Latin "volvere" 

_- Italian "volgere" = to turn
- Italian "avvolgere" = to wrap_

example : 
_- volgere le spalle = to turn the shoulders (synonymous of "to go away")
- avvolgere un pacco = to wrap a pack_

While in Sardinian the verb "to turn" is "_girare_" (used also in Italian); but we also use another verb : "_furriare_" which literally means "to rotate", it's also used as synonymous of "to throw something away" (making it rotate in the air); curiously this verb reminds the English "flurry" = swirl, turbine, vortex

example :
_- happo furriadu sa contonada = I've turned behind the corner (in Sardinian "sos contones" are the squared stone blocks used to build the corners of the ancient houses)
- happo furriadu s'alga = I've thrown away the garbage (used as synonymous of to throw way)_

While the verb normally used to translate "to throw away" is "_frundire_", from Vulgar Latin "flundare" = to sling; Instead the verb used for "to wrap" in Sardinian followed the same evolutive path of Catalan, we use _"imbolicare or imboligare" (the adjective "imboligosu" it's also used as synonymous of "contorted, twisted, convoluted")

- imboligare unu paccu = to wrap a pack
- est una persone imboligosa = it's a contorted person (who speaks in a contorted/convoluted way)
- imboligare s'arrejonu = to contort the subject (literally "arrejonu = reasoning")_


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## ilocas2

Čakavian (dialect of Croatian):

against* - kontra* (loanword from Romance languages)

for example song _Ništa kontra Splita_ (Nothing against Split) or saying _Ča je pusta Londra kontra Splita grada_ (What is deserted London against the town of Split)


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## ThomasK

But then I suppose there is no link with "again" in Cakavian…


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## bibax

In Czech we also use *kontra* (Lat. prep. _contrā_) in some context (esp. legal). The derived verb *kontrovati* means_ to counter, to riposte_.

In Latin no obvious connection between against and again:

against:* contra*;
again: *rursum/rursus, iterum, iterato, denuo*;


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## ilocas2

ThomasK said:


> But then I suppose there is no link with "again" in Cakavian…



I checked some dictionaries and the words for "again" are similar to the standard Croatian, so there's no link.



bibax said:


> In Czech we also use *kontra* (Lat. prep. _contrā_) in some context (esp. legal). The derived verb *kontrovati* means_ to counter, to riposte_.



I think that the word kontra is used sometimes in every language in the world. It's such an "international" word.


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## ThomasK

Thanks a lot for your replies. Now, I generally start from a hunch about (etymological) links between words, wondering about some underlying logic for the link for example (as between back/ again and against), and then exploring whether I can sustantiate that hypothesis using information from various languages. But I am too wishful. But in this case I wonder whether equivalents of 'back' might be able to offer a new perspective.


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## berndf

This seems to be a specifically North and West Germanic logic. It is interesting that it applies to different roots: _against>again, wieder>wider, back(noun)>back(adverb), Rücken>zurück_. (The ">" means "semantic shift" here.)


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## Jimbob_Disco

No link in French:

Against - contre
Again - encore


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## ThomasK

@berndf : I wonder whether this association of both concepts (again, against) could not be universal. In the Latin *re*- there is this double meaning: reflection implies against and again. Etymologiebank.nl calls the former a change of direction (not just opposition or contrast).


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