# Persian: Is نوده used in Iranian Persian?



## HZKhan

Is the word نوده/навда/navda, which means a little and young branch of a tree, also used in Iranian Persian or is it only a Central Asian peculiarity?

"Одамон як олами бузургро бо хубӣ тақсим карда наметавонанд, аммо паррандаҳо бо меҳру муҳаббат дар як навда қомат рост мекунанд."
"آدمان یک عالم بزرگ را با خوبی تقسیم کرده نمی‌توانند، اما پرنده‌ها با مهر و محبت در یک نوده قامت راست می‌کنند."


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## Ray Ray

Hi, 
I've never heard of نوده in Persian.


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## colognial

Me, neither. However, the word seems to have its roots in old Persian, since it does appear in the literature as the name of quite a number of well-established rural settlements across Iran, as the link below shows. 

http://fa.wikipedia.org/wiki/نوده


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## fdb

nawda or nawada seems to be a rare variant of nawāda “grandson”, according to the Lughatnāma:

http://68.67.73.14/dehkhodaworddetail-cc8f9712a0714699a17542caa4a7514c-fa.html


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## HZKhan

fdb said:


> nawda or nawada seems to be a rare variant of nawāda “grandson”, according to the Lughatnāma:
> 
> http://68.67.73.14/dehkhodaworddetail-cc8f9712a0714699a17542caa4a7514c-fa.html



In my opinion, that seems to be an entirely another word, unrelated to the Tajik Persian _navda_. 

A Tajik Persian dictionary gives the meaning of the word as: شاخچهٔ نورس درخت؛ قلمچه


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## colognial

Hi, Pakistani Khan. I just noticed something. Going back to your transliteration of the word, I realize that it is quite possible we have the word, not as _navda_, but as _nodeh_, or, strictly speaking, _no deh_, with the half muted _h_ pronounced only briefly.

The meaning would then be 'new village'. This meaning is highly likely to be the true sense of the word in Iranian Persian, borne by the fact that so many Iranian villages carry this very name.

The question in my mind is whether or not there's a kinship between _navda_ in the sense of a bird's nest or an animal's small den, and _nodeh_ as it refers to a rural settlement, either as proper noun or as an attribute.


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## eskandar

The Persian word نو (originally pronounced _naw_ but it has become _no_ with a monophthong in Tehrani Persian) directly corresponds to Tajik нав (_nav_). However my guess is that the second element is different. _Deh_ in Persian ‌نوده means 'village' as you said, thus ‌نوده = 'new village'. However I think a more likely meaning of the _da_ part of Tajik _navda_ is the stem of the word _daadan_, ie. _dah_, thus a young branch of a tree is 'newly-given' or recently grown. That seems to make more sense to me than some connection between a tree branch and a rural settlement, but again I am only speculating.


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## colognial

eskandar, the word is pronounced navda in Tajik Persian. I don't think we could pronounce the imperative 2nd person singular verb "da", could we? It's always "deh", is it not? (Your knowledge of Persian exceeds mine, so the question is not exactly rhetorical!)


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## Qureshpor

Pakistani Khan said:


> Is the word نوده/навда/navda, which means a little and young branch of a tree, also used in Iranian Persian or is it only a Central Asian peculiarity?
> 
> "Одамон як олами бузургро бо хубӣ тақсим карда наметавонанд, аммо паррандаҳо бо меҳру муҳаббат дар як навда қомат рост мекунанд."
> "آدمان یک عالم بزرگ را با خوبی تقسیم کرده نمی‌توانند، اما پرنده‌ها با مهر و محبت در یک نوده قامت راست می‌کنند."


This is what Steingass says.

نوده _nauda, Air, *atmosphere*; bold;--nawada, A grandchild; beloved offspring._

So, the meaning of your sentence could be:

Humans are unable to share (?) this big wide world yet birds stand up/live proudly within one *atmosphere *with kindness and love.


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## HZKhan

Qureshpor said:


> This is what Steingass says. So
> 
> 
> نوده_nauda, Air, *atmosphere*; bold;--nawada, A grandchild; beloved offspring._
> 
> So, the meaning of your sentence could be:
> 
> Humans are unable to share (?) this big wide world yet birds stand up/live proudly within one *atmosphere *with kindness and love.



I don't think so. My reasons being: first, the authorized Tajik Persian  dictionary doesn't give that meaning of the word, which means that it is safe to assume that a common Tajik wouldn't use the word in that connotation. And second, the facebook post, where I saw the sentence, vividly shows a branch on which birds are resting.

While searching on google, I found that a famous Tajik poet Laiq Sher-Ali has also used the word in one of his poems:
برگ سبز و نوده سبز،
شاخساران شاد و شادابند از مادر-زمین
لیک یک جای درختِ سبز خونین است
.........
​By the way, there are some online instances of it being used in neighbouring Uzbeki language, too.


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## Qureshpor

^ In this case I stand corrected. It was merely a supposition on my part.


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## HZKhan

Qureshpor saahib, I think _قامت راست کردن_ means to rest. Maybe our Persian-speaking friends will be kind enough to shed some light on it.

 My guess is based on the fact that we also use a similar expression in Urdu: kamar siidhii karnaa.


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## Qureshpor

Pakistani Khan SaaHib, thank you for the explanation. I did not know the meaning of "qaamat raast kardan" so I used a bit of guesswork. Obviously I got it wrong.


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## HZKhan

No, my guess was wrong. I just consulted a dictionary and it says that the expression primarily means 'to stand up'.


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## eskandar

colognial said:


> eskandar, the word is pronounced navda in Tajik Persian. I don't think we could pronounce the imperative 2nd person singular verb "da", could we? It's always "deh", is it not? (Your knowledge of Persian exceeds mine, so the question is not exactly rhetorical!)


colognial, my knowledge of Persian is undoubtedly less than yours! You are right, it would have to be _deh_ (in Tajik Persian диҳ _dih_) and not *_da_. My mistake.



Pakistani Khan said:


> By the way, there are some online instances of it being used in neighbouring Uzbeki language, too.


There are many Uzbek loanwords in Tajik, and vice versa, so this could possibly be the source. Anyway, we can at least be sure that навда in Tajik is definitely used in the sense of "branch". In a translation of the Bible, we can see where the English word "branch" is used several times, the Tajik word навда is used, cf. John 15:2 and 15:4-6.


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## Qureshpor

eskandar said:


> [...]There are many Uzbek loanwords in Tajik, and vice versa, so this could possibly be the source. Anyway, we can at least be sure that навда in Tajik is definitely used in the sense of "branch". In a translation of the Bible, we can see where the English word "branch" is used several times, the Tajik word навда is used, cf. John 15:2 and 15:4-6.


It is interesting that it is found in Steingass albeit not covering the "branch" meaning. And Steinbgass is said to be a dictionary of "Indo-Persian" usage.


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## permawl

Hi, the word is old persian (seemingly really really old) and it means branch/wood on trees. I think you can get what it means as a whole (in that sentence) and no Iranians don't use it, this word is so old that even for old poetry books they replace it with somewhat of newer words.


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## colognial

Hi, permawl. As you point out, the sentence quoted with birds and humans in it can still make sense even if the meaning is taken to be 'branch' or 'bough', rather than 'nest'. I believe Dehkhoda mentions this definition for the same entry. If you know of any old texts where this word has been used, I'd appreciate it if you would cite them here.


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## permawl

colognial said:


> Hi, permawl. As you point out, the sentence quoted with birds and humans in it can still make sense even if the meaning is taken to be 'branch' or 'bough', rather than 'nest'. I believe Dehkhoda mentions this definition for the same entry. If you know of any old texts where this word has been used, I'd appreciate it if you would cite them here.


ٰThe reason they translate it with other words in persian, is that it's a "Dari"*دَری* word, which is used in east of Iran and most of Afghanistan. It's not Farsi Afghani, don't do the common mistake here, sadly I don't have access to their literature to give you more examples of that word, but it definitely means branch


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## eskandar

«دری» همان «فارسی افغانی» است و بین این دو عبارت هیچ فرقی وجود ندارد، همانطور که مثلاً «رضائیه» همان «ارومیه» است. در افغانستان گاهی به این زبان «دری» گفته می‌شود و گاهی «فارسی» یا «فارسی دری». ​


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## fdb

In early Persian texts the words Fārsī (Arabic Fārisī) and Darī (from dar “court”) are used either as synonyms, or as names for two different varieties of Persian, but from about the 12th century “Darī” is used only rarely, and then virtually only in poetry. In Afghanistan “Darī” was revived about 100 years ago as the official designation for the Persian used in Afghanistan as opposed to the Persian of Iran, but in recent years many Afghans have become tired of nationalist posturing and have gone back to the traditional “Fārsī”.


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## colognial

permawl said:


> ٰThe reason they translate it with other words in persian, is that it's a "Dari"*دَری* word, which is used in east of Iran and most of Afghanistan. It's not Farsi Afghani, don't do the common mistake here, sadly I don't have access to their literature to give you more examples of that word, but it definitely means branch


I'm sure I wouldn't want to make mistakes, especially mistakes of the common type.  Is the word still in use, perhaps in some obscure, maybe rural, part of eastern Iran? But really, I'm quite convinced 'branch' is a likely enough meaning, to make the word equivalent, in certain instances, with the more modern word 'javaane' (جوانه), yes or no?


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