# ביצים/ביצה ,פירות/פרי



## albondiga

I searched for a thread on this and couldn't find any, so here goes:

Is there any way to determine which masculine nouns get *-ot* and which feminine nouns get *-im*, or am I correct in understanding that each one must be memorized on its own?  Also, when these nouns are "doing something" (e.g., fruits being eaten), am I correct in understanding that they get conjugated in line with their actual gender, and it is only the plurals of the nouns (as well as any adjectives that are modifying them and must agree) that act like the opposite gender?

Do native speakers also confuse these, and if so then is it generally accepted as ok or are they corrected on it?

Also, what are the most commonly confused nouns of this sort?

Thanks!


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## Nunty

Hi Albondiga,




albondiga said:


> Is there any way to determine which masculine nouns get *-ot* and which feminine nouns get *-im*, or am I correct in understanding that each one must be memorized on its own?


I'm sorry, but I can't think of any rule off hand. I hope someone else can.



albondiga said:


> [...]Also, when these nouns are "doing something" (e.g., fruits being eaten), am I correct in understanding that they get conjugated in line with their actual gender, and it is only the plurals of the nouns (as well as any adjectives that are modifying them and must agree) that act like the opposite gender?


I'm not sure I understand the question, but this is the rule: Adjectives are always formed according to the gender of the noun they modify, which does not change even if the plural form _looks_ like something else. ביצה is feminine and stays that way, so we say ביצים קשות.
There seems to be more to your question, but I'm afraid I don't understand it. Sorry. 



albondiga said:


> [...]Do native speakers also confuse these, and if so then is it generally accepted as ok or are they corrected on it?


New immigrants often confuse them, but I don't think that many native-born and reasonably well-educated people do. I could be wrong, of course, as I often am. 



albondiga said:


> [...] Also, what are the most commonly confused nouns of this sort?
> 
> Thanks!


Hmmm... קיר - קירות leaps to mind, but I'm afraid I have the sort of mind that never can come up with lists of things. I'm sure someone else will help, though.


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## albondiga

Nun-Translator said:


> I'm not sure I understand the question, but this is the rule: Adjectives are always formed according to the gender of the noun they modify, which does not change even if the plural form _looks_ like something else. ביצה is feminine and stays that way, so we say ביצים קשות.
> There seems to be more to your question, but I'm afraid I don't understand it. Sorry.



Thanks, I think that does answer my question (sorry for the awkward phrasing above )... so just to be clear: in those cases where the plural of a word is irregular, _nothing _else changes besides that one thing (the *-im* or *-ot  *attached to that noun)...  So all adjectives, verbs, etc. that relate to that noun behave as they normally would for a verb of its gender.  Thus, "ביצ*ים* קש*ות* נאכל*ות* בארוחת בקר" (I don't know if that sentence is slightly awkward, but I hope you understand what I'm trying to say )...


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## Nunty

Yes, that is correct. The gender of a word is always determined in the singular. The way the plural looks (-im or -ot) does not affect the gender. (A woman wearing trousers is still a woman.) I don't think I'd say the sentence you give  , but it's perfectly correct.


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## albondiga

I wasn't even thinking about that other meaning of ביצים, I just guessed that phrase meant "hard-boiled eggs"! (please tell me it does!)

If it doesn't, then I sincerely apologize to anyone else who has to read it, as I will have officially made my first bad Hebrew blunder...


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## Nunty

Oh dear, I wasn't thinking of that either 

I only meant that the clothing doesn't change the gender of the person, just like the suffix doesn't change the gender of the noun.

Oh my, oh my... 

Going to go hide somewhere...


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## Nunty

P.S. Yes, your phrase is just about breakfast.


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## albondiga

Phew... I think I misinterpreted where you wrote:


> I don't think I'd say the sentence you give  , but it's perfectly correct.


Were you just saying you would not say that "hard-boiled eggs are eaten at breakfast"?


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## albondiga

Nun-Translator said:


> P.S. Yes, your phrase is just about breakfast.



Thanks!


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## Nunty

albondiga said:


> Phew... I think I misinterpreted where you wrote:
> Were you just saying you would not say that "hard-boiled eggs are eaten at breakfast"?


I meant your sentence is, as you suggested, a little awkward. Most people would say "אוכלים ביצים קשות בארוחת בוקר" or "בארוחת בוקר אוכלים ביצים קשות".

Phew indeed!


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## albondiga

Nun-Translator said:


> I meant your sentence is, as you suggested, a little awkward. Most people would say "אוכלים ביצים קשות בארוחת בוקר" or "בארוחת בוקר אוכלים ביצים קשות".



Ah, okay, that makes sense.. yes, I knew it was awkward but I had to have the eggs _doing _something  (in order to apply a conjugated verb ending with -ot their "actions" ), and the only thing I could think of was to have them "be eaten" by making it passive and applying the nif'al... glad that's all cleared up though, and thanks again for your help!


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## amikama

Nun-Translator said:


> I'm sorry, but I can't think of any rule off hand. I hope someone else can.


I'm afraid no one can, for the simple reason that there is no such rule. Irregular plural must be memorized (and unfortunately they are many, many).



> New immigrants often confuse them, but I don't think that many native-born and reasonably well-educated people do. I could be wrong, of course, as I often am.


I agree with your observation (not the last one, the former ).



Nun-Translator said:


> Yes, that is correct. The gender of a word is always determined in the singular. The way the plural looks (-im or -ot) does not affect the gender. (A woman wearing trousers is still a woman.)


Great analogy! I like it


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