# per commercium epistolicum discutiren



## Quentin Dollinger

This is from a German letter written in 1827. He is writing to a friend in Switzerland, a person he presumably might meet in Bern. There are 2 phrases here I need help on. 

All of my future plans are still immature, embryos, who must be delivered first. They are Spanish castles in the air which need to be realised and finished first, thus I am pleased to accept suggestions, we can discuss these, when I am in Paris, per commercium epistolicum discutiren [[Latin]] or better in Bern, post visum repertum [[Latin]] as you wrote me.


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## Starfrown

_per commercium epistolicum_ = (quite literally) "on account of epistolic business_[more literally, trade]_/communication" 
(I would of course suggest either retaining the Latin phrase _commercium epistolicum_--which would be known to certain scholarly types--in your translation or coming up with more natural English.)

_post visum repertum_ = (literally) "after a seen discovery" = "after seeing a discovery" 
(I'm not entirely sure about this one)


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## Quentin Dollinger

Thanks, I always retain the Latin in the translated text, and give footnotes about its origin when necessary. I'll leave this thread open in case someone else has a further idea about post visum repertum. I thought it might mean "after a visual investigation" if we take the word discovery in a legal sense. What do you think of this?


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## loco44

_Visum et repertum_ = seen and discovered (_post_ = after).
Again _discutiren_ is Catalan = to discuss, to talk about.

Also you should attemp a bit of translation too ...


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## Quentin Dollinger

Thanks, I had no idea Catalan was involved here. I've managed to figure out 95% of the Latin in these 87 letters I'm working on. Just posting a few of the ones I can't do!


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## Starfrown

loco44 said:


> _Visum et repertum_ = seen and discovered (_post_ = after).


I didn't see an _et_ in the text posted. As it stands, I think I must interpret one of the two participles as a substantive; to me, it seems more likely that _repertum_ is the correct choice--"a discovered [thing]," i.e. "a discovery."


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## Stoicorum_simia

I think he is suggesting to discuss plans either by letter when in Paris (per commercium epistolicum = through the interchange of letters) or better, in person in Bern (post visum repertum = 'after sight has been found' = when I see you). Both slightly odd phrases, though.
The Catalan forms are probably a coincidence. I think _discutiren_ is again a compound Latin-German form, this time using the _-ieren of a German infinitive._


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## Quentin Dollinger

Thanks Stoicorum for your help on this and the other threads from today. 
I think "when I see you" actually makes the most sense, in the context of the letter. Tbe writer often wrote in elliptical language, employed made-up words in German, and used obscure analogies, such as "Veronese Kharamsin" to denote the ill winds of change that came from the Congress of Verona!


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## loco44

Stoicorum_simia said:


> I think he is suggesting to discuss plans either by letter when in Paris (per commercium epistolicum = through the interchange of letters) or better, in person in Bern (post visum repertum = 'after sight has been found' = when I see you). Both slightly odd phrases, though.
> The Catalan forms are probably a coincidence. I think _discutiren_ is again a compound Latin-German form, this time using the _-ieren of a German infinitive._



Also in a previous post (same letter author) there was a Catalan verb: thus the coincidences are starting to become a little too many...


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## Fred_C

Hi,
Diskutieren (modern spelling) is a perfectly genuine German word meaning "to discuss".
Perhaps "Discutiren" is an old spelling.

Perhaps it is a bad idea to provide us with the English translations of your letters, because the translator, who does not know latin, did not know how to connect the German text with the Latin text. There might be losses at the borders...


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## Quentin Dollinger

Here is the full sentence and the preceding ones in the original transcript:

Ich reise morgen den 9tn von hier ab, und gedencke den 13tn  höchstens den 14tn in Paris zu seyn, von da ich Ihnen meine Ankunft, und mein dortiges Leben und Treiben melden werde. Alle meine künftige Lebens-Pläne sind noch alle unreif, und lauter Embryonen, die erst zur Welt gebracht werden müssen. Es sind spanische Luftschlösser die erst realisirt und ausgebaut werden müssen, ich nehme daher sehr gern Vorschläge an, diese können wir, wenn ich in Paris bin, per commercium epistolicum discutiren, oder noch besser in Bern, post visum repertum, wie Sie mir schreiben.


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## Fred_C

Since the German spelling in the whole letter is strange, it makes no doubt anymore that "discutiren" is German.
Besides, it is already translated into English :  "Diese können wir per commercium epistolicum diskutieren" means "We can discuss these matters by mail", the translator just forgot to remove the word "Discutiren" when he copied and pasted the latin excerpt.

I have found this for "Visum repertum", in a good German dictionary :
Visum repertum : der in der Jurisprudenz gebräuchliche Ausdruck für Fundschein, Bescheinigung eines gemachten Fundes.
It is a legal term used to mean "certificate of discovery". (something like that)

Your latin sentences are not genuinely latin, they are just small latin phrases used in German, like English uses some, just not the same ones.
Guessing their meaning is almost impossible if you know only latin, because they are abbreviations carrying a special meaning. Someone with a good knowledge of German will be of better help.
To solve your problems, do not ask someone who knows latin, ask someone who knows German BETTER.



"I will leave this place tomorrow the 9th, and I am planning to be in Paris on the 13th or the 14th, and I will inform you about my arrival from there. All of my future plans are still immature, embryos, who must be delivered first. They are Spanish castles in the air which need to be realised and finished first, thus I am pleased to accept suggestions, we can discuss these, when I am in Paris, by mail or better in Bern, after the certificate of discovery, as you wrote me.


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## Quentin Dollinger

Much appreciated, thanks Fred


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## Starfrown

Stoicorum_simia said:


> I think he is suggesting to discuss plans either by letter when in Paris (per commercium epistolicum = through the interchange of letters)...


I would just like to add that I agree with Stoicorum_simia and Fred on this point.  Latin _per_ literally means "through," and it was sometimes used by extension to indicate the cause for something, being then translated as "because of," "on account of," "by reason of," etc.--I mistakenly interpreted it as such above.  I thought at first that the author was giving _commercium epistolicum_ as his reason for being in Paris, but upon considering the larger context, I must agree with the others.


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