# you have done all I could have asked of you



## thetazuo

1. she said. “You have done all I could have asked of you, and a hundred times more...

2. "The thing is, you did not know the Starks. Lord Eddard is a proud, honorable, and honest man, and his lady wife is worse. Oh, no doubt she would have found a coin or two for you when this was all over, and pressed it in your hand with a polite word and a look of distaste, but that’s the most you could have hoped for..."

Source:Game of Thrones
Can I think sentence 1 implies a condition "if I had been in need"?
Can I think sentence 2 implies a condition "if you had ever bothered to expect what prize she would give you"?
Thank you.


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## Durnett

In sentence 1 she means "You have done more than it would have been fair of me to ask of you."  Judging by how grateful speaker 1 sounds, it's likely that she was in need but didn't ask for help because of other reasons (Maybe she was unable to speak with the other person directly).  So I think the condition is more like, "if I had been in a position to ask you to do certain things"

I think you're right about sentence 2.


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## VicNicSor

Basically, the two examples mean "It would have been impossible for me/you to ask/hope for more."


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## thetazuo

Thank you both. But your interpretation is a bit different from mine. I understand my examples as "*unrealized past possibility/ability*". So I would interpret the first one as "it would have been possible for me to ask all the things of you, but actually I didn't do so. And I imagine if I had been in a position to ask you to do certain things, I would have asked them". I would interpret my second example as "it would have been possible for you to ask the most, but you didn't actually do so, but if if you had ever bothered to expect what prize she would give you, you would have hoped for the most".
What do you think?


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## andrewg927

I don't believe 1 implies "if I had been in need". I think it says "you have done more than perhaps I expected". It was a praise and a show of gratitude. In fact, I think the person did ask for a favor.

Sentence 2 implies a surprise. I would say the person did not receive the response they expected from Eddard's wife because they "did not know the Starks".


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## thetazuo

andrewg927 said:


> I don't believe 1 implies "if I had been in need". I think it says "you have done more than perhaps I expected". It was a praise and a show of gratitude. In fact, I think the person did ask for a favor.
> 
> Sentence 2 implies a surprise. I would say the person did not receive the response they expected from Eddard's wife because they "did not know the Starks".


Thank you. I have since refined my understanding, as is written in #4. Do you think my interpretation in #4 makes good sense to you?
And I don't quite understand how you infer the meaning "more than" from the original examples?


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## andrewg927

"A hundred times more" in the original example means it's a lot more than the person expected.

I didn't read post 4 before but your explanation is quite off the mark.


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## thetazuo

Thank you. I see. But I don't think my interpretation is absolutely wrong since I was told by another native English teacher that my examples express "*unrealized past possibility/ability*".


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## wandle

thetazuo said:


> “You have done all I could have asked of you, and a hundred times more


The speaker does not say 'You have done all that I asked of you'. This means there can only be one of two possibilities: either she had not asked for anything at all; or she had asked for something less than was actually done. In either case, therefore, she could have made a request which she did not make. That is an unrealised possibility. I see the implied condition as, for example, 'if I had chosen to do so'.


thetazuo said:


> that’s the most you could have hoped for.


In this case, the implication is that the person had not been in a position to hope for anything (though there is not enough context to tell us why). That too is an unrealised possibility. I see the implied condition as, for example, 'if you had been in a position to do so'.


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## thetazuo

wandle said:


> the implication is that the person had not been in a position to hope for anything


Thank you, wandle. Does this amount to saying he didn't actually hoped for the most but he could have?


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## andrewg927

He didn't know what to expect so he couldn't have hoped for anything. But if he did hope for something, the most of what he could have hoped for is what the speaker explains.


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## thetazuo

Thank you. This is a quote that precedes the sentence 2 in the op:
_“Well, why do sellswords do anything? For gold. *You were thinking Lady Catelyn would reward you for your help*, perhaps even take you into her service. Here, that should do, I hope. Do you have a flint?” _
So I think he did actually hope for something/some reward, but he didn't hope for the most because the person had not been in a position to hope for the most.
Sorry, this might seem a bit hair-splitting. Does my understanding of this kind make sense to you?


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## Edinburgher

wandle said:


> In either case, therefore, she could have made a request which she did not make.


Agreed, but my impression is that the reason the request was not made is that it was unnecessary to make it.  The speaker could have asked the helper to do several specific things for her, but he had already done them all without needing to be asked.
Does that still count as unrealised possibility?  I'm not sure.


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## wandle

Edinburgher said:


> The speaker could have asked the helper to do several specific things for her, but he had already done them all without needing to be asked.


The point at which she could have made the unrealised request was before anything was done.


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## wandle

thetazuo said:


> “Well, why do sellswords do anything? For gold. *You were thinking Lady Catelyn would reward you for your help*, perhaps even take you into her service. Here, that should do, I hope. Do you have a flint?”


That context makes it clear. The speaker means that the addressee (the 'sellsword') had been hoping for money.


thetazuo said:


> The thing is, you did not know the Starks.


In other words, the implication is 'If you had known the Starks, you would have understood that they would not reward such conduct; and, if you had understood that, then the most you could have hoped for is a coin or two'.
That understanding is the unrealised possibility.


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## thetazuo

Thank you for your further example. But my question in #12 still stands. 
Can I understand the second example as "you didn't understand that so you didn't hope for a coin or two" (implying you actually hoped for more reward)? Namely, "if you had understood that, then you could have hoped for no more than a coin or two"


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## wandle

thetazuo said:


> But my question in #12 still stands. ... Namely, "if you had understood that, then you could have hoped for no more than a coin or two"


Already answered:


wandle said:


> the implication is 'If you had known the Starks, you would have understood that they would not reward such conduct; and, if you had understood that, then the most you could have hoped for is a coin or two'.


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## thetazuo

wandle said:


> Already answered:


Thank you. I knew you answered that. But I can't help thinking it in a slightly different way than you (I am used to using "could have pp" as a predicate, which makes more sense to me), as is written in #16? Do you agree with that?


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## wandle

thetazuo said:


> as is written in #16


These two statements mean the same:


thetazuo said:


> you could have hoped for no more than a coin or two





wandle said:


> the most you could have hoped for is a coin or two


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## boozer

thetazuo said:


> Can I understand the second example as "you didn't understand that so you didn't hope for a coin or two" (implying you actually hoped for more reward)? Namely, "if you had understood that, then you could have hoped for no more than a coin or two"


Thetazuo, with enough imagination you could attach an implied condition to any 'could/might/would + perfect infinitive' phrase and thus turn the example into a type 3 conditional.

You could do that because the grammar of 'could have hoped' allows it even when the phrase is used to express an unrealised past possibility (or whatever name you give it).

The question is: "Is there really an implied condition to/for/in any such example?"

No.


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## thetazuo

To wandle. Thank you. I see. So example 2 suggests "you didn't understand that so you didn't hope for a coin or two" (implying you actually hoped for more reward)?
To boozer. Thank you. You mean example 2 doesn't imply a condition?


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## wandle

boozer said:


> The question is: "Is there really an implied condition to/for/in any such example?"
> No.


That amounts to saying that 'could have' can never involve a condition unless the condition is expressed.

On the contrary, regular usage in English and other languages allows phrases, clauses and whole sentences to be implied.
This possibility exists just as well with 'could have' as with a vast range of other expressions.

What a clumsy language it would be if everything had to be spelled out all the time!


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## wandle

thetazuo said:


> So example 2 suggests "you didn't understand that so you didn't hope for a coin or two" (implying you actually hoped for more reward)?


I have been agreeing with that basic idea since post 15 (though I express it differently for the sake of precision):


wandle said:


> The speaker means that the addressee (the 'sellsword') had been hoping for money.
> In other words, the implication is 'If you had known the Starks, you would have understood that they would not reward such conduct; and, if you had understood that, then the most you could have hoped for is a coin or two'.


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## thetazuo

Thank you. Sorry for to many questions.
1. But do you agree with these interpretations? I don't think they are quite right.
For example 1, "it wasn't possible to ask for any more"
For example 2, "it wasn't possible to hope for any more"
2. Do you think these two examples tend towards the "imagination" end of the spectrum, namely, they express more of imagination of the past possibility than counterfactuality?


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## wandle

In each case, there is an unrealised possibility. In (1), the lady did not ask for as much as was done. In (2), the mercenary did not understand what sort of people he was dealing with and consequently did not confine his hopes to what was realistic. To suppose that either of those possibilities had been realised would be contrary to fact.


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## boozer

wandle said:


> That amounts to saying that 'could have' can never involve a condition unless the condition is expressed.


No, it amounts to saying what it says. A condition may be implied, but that is not necessarily the case.


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## boozer

thetazuo said:


> To boozer. Thank you. You mean example 2 doesn't imply a condition?


Yes, I mean neither of the two examples implies a condition. It is just a way of expressing an unrealised possibility in the past tense and attaching a condition to it is actually over-analysing it.


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## wandle

boozer said:


> The question is: "Is there really an implied condition to/for/in any such example?"
> No.


That says there is no implied condition in any such example. That covers all cases of such examples. It means that no such example (a sentence with 'could have') has an implied condition.

Suppose there are boxes of different colours, red, blue and green, some of which contain sweets, while others do not.

Suppose we point to a red box and ask, 'Is there a sweet in any such box?' If the answer is No, it means that no red boxes contain sweets.


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## boozer

Okay, I may have worded it ambiguously, apologies. What I really mean is that a condition may be implied, but this is not necessarily the case.


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## wandle

It seems to me that a condition is always logically implied, even if not consciously registered by the speaker or writer.


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## boozer

wandle said:


> It seems to me that a condition is always logically implied, even if not consciously registered by the speaker or writer.



"What the Minoan visitor to the site would have seen at any one moment in the Late Bronze Age would have been quite different"
Architecture of Minoan Crete

This is a book about Minoan architecture of that time and they talk about some building so, obviously, Minoan visitors surely saw what they saw. The "would have" is used by the author to make an educated guess as to what actually they did see. I see no condition implied.

Then, again, someone more imaginative than me might see a condition but for me this is not a matter of logic. Just imagination.


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## wandle

boozer said:


> at any one moment


These words contain the implied condition 'if they had seen the place at any particular time'.


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## boozer

I am not surprised.


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## wandle

It is a condition of seeing the site or its buildings that you must be present at and able to see the place.


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## boozer

Experience has taught me that it is pointless to argue. I will just say that I disagree and that the sentence can exist quite happily without 'at any one moment'.


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## wandle

Logically, there is a whole series of conditions implied (all the physical assumptions that need to be made, for example).

By saying 'would have seen' instead of 'saw', John McEnroe is simply admitting that he does not have direct evidence and is stating what would be true if normal assumptions were met.


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## thetazuo

wandle said:


> These words contain the implied condition 'if they had seen the place at any particular time'.


The assumption/belief use of "would have pp" can accompany a condition (If he had opened the envelope, he would have seen the letter). But it is somewhat so-called "meta-condition", which is supposed to have happened, as opposed to unreal condition.


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## boozer

wandle said:


> By saying 'would have seen' instead of 'saw', John McEnroe is simply admitting that he does not have direct evidence and is stating what would be true if normal assumptions were met.


Sure, yes. We are maybe, just maybe, on the same page now.
If normal assumptions were met, as opposed to 'had been met'. This is no longer an implied 3rd conditional and 'would have seen' does not mean they 'did not see', just as I argued in post 20, where I did use the phrase 'type 3 conditional'. In other words, it is a way of wording an assumption about past events, no closed past-time condition involved.

I said all that because the OP tried to attach a closed past-time condition (type 3) to the original example.


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## wandle

All conditions with 'would' rather than 'will' are closed conditions. 
The basic condition in the Minoan example is 'would have seen at any one moment if he or she had been present'.
'If he or she had been present' does not imply that no visitor was ever present, only that it is impossible to state that anyone was present at any particular time.

As for the original question, there are indeed closed past conditions implied, including these:


wandle said:


> the implication is 'If you had known the Starks, you would have understood that they would not reward such conduct; and, if you had understood that, then the most you could have hoped for is a coin or two'.


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## boozer

OK, then we agree to disagree.


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## thetazuo

wandle said:


> closed conditions


Hi, wandle. What is a closed condition?


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## wandle

A closed condition (also known as a hypothetical or unreal condition) is distinguished from an open condition (also called a factual or real condition).

The Oxford English Grammar defines the difference as follows:


> Direct conditions may be open (or real) or hypothetical (closed or unreal).
> Open conditions leave completely open whether the condition will be fulfilled.
> Hypothetical conditions ... express the speaker's belief that the condition has not been fulfilled (for past conditions), is not fulfilled (for present conditions) or is unlikely to be fulfilled (for future conditions).



Thus in the case of the mercenary, the implied condition 'if you had known the Starks' is a closed (hypothetical) past condition, expressing the speaker's belief that the mercenary did not know the Starks.


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## thetazuo

wandle said:


> open condition (also called a factual or real condition).


Many thanks. I see. So "open condition" is only used in type 1 conditional, right?


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## wandle

thetazuo said:


> So "open condition" is only used in type 1 conditional, right?


No. Each kind (open or closed) can be past, present or future. I made this table to show the six basic types.


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## thetazuo

Thanks. It's so educative.


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