# Persian and Urdu: khor/khord-o-nosh



## Alfaaz

*Background:*
Recently, in response to this thread, I wrote the following: *"ashyaa"; "ashyaa-e-khor-o-nosh" supplies/things of eating and drinking*. 

I will be quoting from PM's below and _hope that BP won't mind_(have edited the quotes to include only those that pertain to this thread)! 

BelligerentPacifist suggested the following: 



> In the oblique forms thread, please correct this spelling mistake in your post: Change khor-o-nosh to khor*d*-o-nosh.



My reply: 


> This was discussed in a program on Geo tv called "Khabarnaak" (segment Zabaan-o-Bayaan) in which host Aftaab Iqbal said that 'this is a ghalat-ul-a'am. A kaatib probably added the daal at the end by mistake during katabat. Therefore, the correct pronunciation should be "khor".'
> As stated previously, I am just a learner; so not really sure if the above descriptions and corrections are right or not...What do you think?



BelligerentPacifist's suggestion/reply: 


> Fascinating! Maybe you are right, but maybe is is as I understood it khurdan (eating) -> khurd (what which is eaten). *You could make a thread on htat*.
> Do you have a link to that show?



My reply again: 


> It's on Youtube, but don't remember the date/episode....so that would require a lot of searching...! In the show, they include common ghalat-ul-aam's




*Question:* So, is it khor-o-nosh or khord-o-nosh? Which one is correct? (This was probably discussed in a thread a long time ago...)

Khord-o-nosh definitely seems to be what's common in Urdu (and probably Persian) right now....

(Probably shouldn't be saying this, but sometimes one wonders if members on this forum might be famous celebrities/poets (in disguise))....?!?!! If not they should be, for the immense amount of knowledge they possess _*and share with others*_! شکریہ ! خدا حافظ!


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## searcher123

in Persian we will say لوازم خوردن و نوشيدن.


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## Alfaaz

> in Persian we will say لوازم خوردن و نوشيدن



Thanks for replying! I'm guessing that is for Modern Persian...? What about Classical? Could it have changed from khor to khord (because khor is also used as in aadam-khor, sheer-khuar, rishwat-khor, etc.)...?


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## searcher123

> I'm guessing that is for Modern Persian...?



Yes, it is. Also you can change نوشيدن to آشاميدن too.


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## BP.

Thanks for floating the thread Alfaaz.


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## Qureshpor

Iqbal knew a thing or two about Persian. 







yih 3aalam yih butxaanah-i-chashm-o-gosh
jahaaN zindagii hai faqat *xurd-o-nosh
*
Iqbal

ای روزه داران! عواقب وخيم زياده روی در* خورد و نوش* در دين و دنيا بر شخص عاقل پوشيده نيست، علاوه بر آنکه گذشت اين زياده روی تنبلی و کاهلی را بار آورده، مانع تفکير درست شده، سختی و قساوت قلب، امراض، بر انگيختن انگيزه های شر و بدی ها و تسلط شيطان را باعث ميشود.

http://eslahonline.net/26291

aadaab-i-xvurd-o-nosh - آداب خورد و نوش

http://www.islamtape.com/Printable.php?ArticleID=595

Here is an entry from Dehxodaa:

زنج . [ زَ ن َ ] (ع مص ) سخت تشنه گردیدن . (ناظم الاطباء). فراهم آمدن امعاء کسی از تشنگی چنانکه از *خور و نوش* زائد باز ماند. (از اقرب الموارد). || تشنه گردیدن شتر دفعه به دفعه و تنگ شدن شکم آن . (از اقرب الموارد). رجوع به ماده ٔ بعد شود.

From Platts:

P خور _ḵẖẉur_, _ḵẖor_ (act. part. of _ḵẖẉurdan_; rt. Zend _qar_; S. _svad_), part. adj. & s.m. Eating, drinking; devouring;—eater, devourer (used in comp., e.g. _ḥalāl-ḵẖor_, q.v.s.v. _ḥalāl_;—_mardum-ḵẖẉur_, 'Man-devouring');—s.m. Eating, food:—_ḵẖẉur-o-posh_, s.m. Food and raiment:—*ḵẖẉur-o-nosh,* s.m. Meat and drink.

kabhii ashk piinaa kabhii ranj khaanaa
yahii 3ishq meN hai *xor-o-nosh* apnaa

NaasiKh

So, both are used!


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## Qureshpor

Alfaaz said:


> (Probably shouldn't be saying this, but sometimes one wonders if members on this forum might be famous celebrities/poets (in disguise))....?!?!! If not they should be, for the immense amount of knowledge they possess _*and share with others*_! شکریہ ! خدا حافظ!




What an astute observation! I too think that the "gumnaam" lakhnavii poet Faylasoof SaaHib has quoted a couple of times is most likely to be Faylasoof SaaHib himself!!

banaa kar faqiiroN kaa ham bhes Ghalib
tamaashaa-i-ahl-i-karam dekhte haiN!


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## Alfaaz

> _What an astute observation!_ I too think that the "gumnaam" lakhnavii poet Faylasoof SaaHib has quoted a couple of times is most likely to be Faylasoof SaaHib himself!!
> 
> banaa kar faqiiroN kaa ham bhes Ghalib
> tamaashaa-i-ahl-i-karam dekhte haiN!



_(Isse tareef samjha jaaye ya tanz)_ Nice couplet! and could you Qureshpor be _the Qureshpor SaaHib_....


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## UrduMedium

Interesting question. Feroz-ul-Lughaat Jaami3 seems to list only _xor-o-nosh._

I  have also heard Javed Ghamidi, a religious scholar from Pakistan (who tends to be careful about his use of language), also refer to it as _xor-o-nosh_ and mention specifically that _xord-o-nosh _is not accurate.

I agree that _xord-o-nosh_ is very popular though. I grew up with it too.


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## Phosphorus

"Khord-o nush" and "khor-o nush" could be synonymous. In the current Persian they do not occur that much, but the first parts, "khord" and "khor", are used as "khord-o khoraak" or, as in the informal language, "bokhor-o bekhaab" (< Sa'adi has "khwar-u khwaab tanhaa tariiqii dadast").

But both of them may possess at least two different meanings with rather distinguished priorities:

khord (past stem of "khordan"): 1. food 2. eating (since it is mainly used in combinations such as "khord-o khoraak" ~ "food")

khor (present stem of "khordan"): 1. eating 2. food (since it is used mainly in combinations such as "bokhor-o bekhaab" ~ lit. "eating and sleeping" ~ "laziness").

In terms of "nushiidan", "nush" can play the role of both present and past stems (I think it might be due to the fact that its infinitive form is attained through adding "-iidan" to "nush" as opposed to "khord-" which is a pure form attested in Old Iraninan languages, cf. Av. "h/xvart-"), accordingly "nush" itself means both "drinking" as well as "drink".

So I personally infer that while "khord-o nush" can mean both "food and drink" and "eating and drinking", "khor-o nush" may mainly refer to "eating and drinking" (note that the exact sense of "nush" over here depends on the way we perceive "khord" and "khor").


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## Qureshpor

Apart from xor-o-nosh, can Forum members think of other instances where two present stems are combined to form such compound words. We have past-past (aamad-o-raft), past-present (guft-o-guu) but are there many present-present?


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## marrish

Not exactly what is being requested since it is present-past, with negation: nest-o-nabuud. I'll think about present-present.


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> Not exactly what is being requested since it is present-past, with negation: nest-o-nabuud. I'll think about present-present.



If I gave an example, then I would answer my own question. I have a feeling there are very few such compounds.


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## marrish

QURESHPOR said:


> If I gave an example, then I would answer my own question. I have a feeling there are very few such compounds.


It would be kind of you to exercise some patience and give us some time because my mind, confronted with this kind of questions usually doesn't return any results when I'd like to have them! Most of the time
they emerge spontaneously at unexpected moments!


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## Phosphorus

QURESHPOR said:


> Apart from xor-o-nosh, can Forum members think of other instances where two present stems are combined to form such compound words. We have past-past (aamad-o-raft), past-present (guft-o-guu) but are there many present-present?



In Persian they happen rather sporadically, but I can for now recall "khwar-o khwaab" (modern "bokhor-o bekhaab"), "kiyaa biyaa", "giir-o daar", "keshaakesh", "khaah naakhaah" or maybe "begii nagii", "boro biyaa", "keshmakesh", "begiir-o beband".


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## Qureshpor

Phosphorus said:


> In Persian they happen rather sporadically, but I can for now recall "khwar-o khwaab" (modern "bokhor-o bekhaab"), "kiyaa biyaa", "giir-o daar", "keshaakesh", "khaah naakhaah" or maybe "begii nagii", "boro biyaa", "keshmakesh", "begiir-o beband".



Thank you, aaqaa-ye-Phosphorous. Out of your list, I would say that "giir-o-daar" is the most convincing. Eating and sleeping are not related verbs (as are eating and drinking) and boro biyaa" are just two imperatives. Same applies for bi-giir-o-bi-band. I have never come across "keshaakesh". Is this supposed to be the same root repeated?

The reason why I asked this question is that I was attempting to show that "xor-o-nosh" type is n't all that productive whereas puxt-o-paz, buud-o-baash (past-present) band-o-bast (present-past) and "xariid-o-faroxt" (past-past) are more productive. Therefore xurd-o-nosh, for me, is more likely and "correct" than xor-o-nosh.


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## marrish

It would be "daar-o-giir'' in Urdu.


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## marrish

This one has no izaafat but may be considered fitting the present-present pattern: fahm-daar.


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## Phosphorus

QURESHPOR said:


> Thank you, aaqaa-ye-Phosphorous. Out of your list, I would say that "giir-o-daar" is the most convincing. Eating and sleeping are not related verbs (as are eating and drinking) and boro biyaa" are just two imperatives. Same applies for bi-giir-o-bi-band. I have never come across "keshaakesh". Is this supposed to be the same root repeated?
> 
> The reason why I asked this question is that I was attempting to show that "xor-o-nosh" type is n't all that productive whereas puxt-o-paz, buud-o-baash (past-present) band-o-bast (present-past) and "xariid-o-faroxt" (past-past) are more productive. Therefore xurd-o-nosh, for me, is more likely and "correct" than xor-o-nosh.



Welcome Qureshpor SaaHiib. To me "khwar-o khwaab" is a combination of related elements in terms of conveying the sense of "laziness" (such as "zad-o band" for "conspiracy"). "boro biyaa" or "begiir nagiir" are not exactly "imperative" forms, they actually mean "raftan-o aamadan" and "bakhtyaar budan-o bakhtyaar nabudan". I am not sure but I have the feeling that they are probably contaminated by Central Iranian dialects in which the present stems usually accept prefixes, an example of this borrowed by colloquial Tehrani Persian is "hiirii viirii" (< "hiigiir viigiir" ~ "giiriiften" ~ Per. "gereftan"). From a technical viewpoint all present stems, with or without a prefix, are considered to be originally "imperative" forms, nonetheless the meaning they convey may not be imperative any more in the aforesaid examples. Yes "keshaakesh" is a famous word from "keshiidan" ~ "to pull" being repeated.

You are completely right about the past-past or past and present combinations being more widespread than the "present present" case, but it still does not conceive me in regard with favoring "khord-o nush" over "khor-o nush". I do not know maybe it is because I do not presently remember "khord" being used with another root (be it past or present) but a noun, "khord-o khoraak", while it is not the case for "khor": "khor-o khaab".

By the way "bud-o baash" sounds strange to me and I have never heard "khariid-o forukht", but "khariid-o forush".


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## UrduMedium

_kashakash _is also used in Urdu with the same meaning. In Urdu-Hindi, roughly synonymous to _kheNch-taan_.


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## Qureshpor

Apart from "giir-o-daar"/"daar-o-giir", I can think of "soz-o-saaz" and "pech-o-taab". There is also "tag-o-dau". My point is that xurd-o-nosh type of formations are more numerous than xor-o-nosh type. For this reason I can not see the basis the Maulana would deem xurd-o-nosh wrong.


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## Phosphorus

QURESHPOR said:


> Apart from "giir-o-daar"/"daar-o-giir", I can think of "soz-o-saaz" and "pech-o-taab". There is also "tag-o-dau". My point is that xurd-o-nosh type of formations are more numerous than xor-o-nosh type. For this reason I can not see the basis the Maulana would deem xurd-o-nosh wrong.



Yes "piich-o taab" is also a good example, however they usually use "suxt-o saaz" instead of "suz-o saaz". For "tag-o daw" I am not sure whether the verb "tagiidan" is attested in either Middle Persian or New Persian or not? But I am sure "tag" itself stays there as a noun (also found in "paatak"), along with "daw" (nonetheless "daw-" is also the present stem for "dawedan" ~ "daviidan"). The original development of Old Iranian root "tak-" (where modern "tag" is derived from) is actually traceable in New Persian as "taaz-" and "taaxtan" ~ "taaziidan" (cf. Mazandarani "taj-" and Kurdish "tajh-").

I have already confirmed your point about present-past or past-past prevalence bro. Nobody said "xord-o nush" is wrong, but I just inferred, based on the aforementioned clues, that there is no way to asseverate that "xord-o nush" is correcter than "xor-o nush", Qureshpor SaaHiib.


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## Qureshpor

Phosphorus said:


> Yes "piich-o taab" is also a good example, however they usually use "suxt-o saaz" instead of "suz-o saaz". For "tag-o daw" I am not sure whether the verb "tagiidan" is attested in either Middle Persian or New Persian or not? But I am sure "tag" itself stays there as a noun (also found in "paatak"), along with "daw" (nonetheless "daw-" is also the present stem for "dawedan" ~ "daviidan"). The original development of Old Iranian root "tak-" (where modern "tag" is derived from) is actually traceable in New Persian as "taaz-" and "taaxtan" ~ "taaziidan" (cf. Mazandarani "taj-" and Kurdish "tajh-").
> 
> I have already confirmed your point about present-past or past-past prevalence bro. Nobody said "xord-o nush" is wrong, but I just inferred, based on the aforementioned clues, that there is no way to asseverate that "xord-o nush" is correcter than "xor-o nush", Qureshpor SaaHiib.


(تگیدن . [ ت َ دَ ] (مص ) دوندگی کردن و این سوی و آن سوی رفتن . (ناظم الاطباء

تگیدن _tagīdan, To run to and fro, hither and thither._(Steingass)

می ساختم چو بربط و می ساختم چو عود 
زیرا که چارۂ دل من سوز و ساز بود 
خواجو 

baraadar-i-giraamii. I was referring to a Maulana UrduMedium had mentioned.


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## Phosphorus

QURESHPOR said:


> (تگیدن . [ ت َ دَ ] (مص ) دوندگی کردن و این سوی و آن سوی رفتن . (ناظم الاطباء
> 
> تگیدن _tagīdan, To run to and fro, hither and thither._(Steingass)
> 
> می ساختم چو بربط و می ساختم چو عود
> زیرا که چارۂ دل من سوز و ساز بود
> خواجو
> 
> baraadar-i-giraamii. I was referring to a Maulana UrduMedium had mentioned.



Thanks for the information about "tagiidan".

I know about "suz-o saaz" occurring in Persian, I just pointed out the prevalence of "suxt-o saaz".

I see, sorry Qureshpor SaaHiib I have the vaguest idea about Maylana UrduMedium.


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## Qureshpor

Phosphorus said:


> I see, sorry Qureshpor SaaHiib I have the vaguest idea about Maulana UrduMedium.


Please see Post 9 and all will be crystal clear.


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