# ال  for compound words



## Idris

In English we have compound words like keyboard, toothbrush.

When making compund words in Arabic, is the article "al-" needed, like this:

لوحة المفاتيح

فرشاة الأسنان

?


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## durra

بحسب علمي
عندما تتحدث عن شيء معين نستخدم ال

وعندما يكون الكلام عام لا نستخدم ال

مثلاً نقول : هذه سماعة الهاتف ، نقصد سماعة معينه 

وإذا قلنا هذه سماعة هاتف نقصد أي سماعة

هذا بحسب فهمي​


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## WadiH

As Durra said, you need it to indicate definiteness.

"The keyboard" --> لوحة المفاتيح
"A keyboard" --> لوحة مفاتيح

Examples:

"Hit f-6 on the keyboard."
اضغط فـ6 على لوحة المفاتيح

"Buy yourself a new keyboard."
اشتر لنفسك لوحة مفاتيح جديدة


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## Idris

So how can I say something like, "Give me your keyboard."?


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## WadiH

أعطني لوحة مفاتيحك.

Note that you do not need to attach الـ to مفاتيحك here because مفاتيح is already defined by the pronoun ـك ("it's not _any_ keyboard, it's _your_ keyboard).


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## Idris

If it's not any keyboard, but your keyboard, then this is definite, right? So shouldn't it be

أعطني لوحتك المفاتيح؟


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## WadiH

Well لوحة is defined by مفاتيح, and مفاتيح is defined by ـك.  So you just took out the ألـ and replaced it with the pronoun ـك and therefore it remains definite.

(an aside: in Arabic, definiteness can occur either through the article ألـ or through إضافة.  The word مفاتيحك is definite by إضافة, or in Arabic معرّف بالإضافة).

You cannot say لوحتك المفاتيح, but I suppose you can say لوحة المفاتيح الخاصة بك (most people would find this too stilted), or in spoken Arabic you can say: لوحة المفاتيح حقّتك/بتاعتك/مالتك/تبعتك, etc.


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## Mahaodeh

You don't use two methods of making a word definite, it's either this or that. The word لوحة is already definite by اضافة to مفاتيح, it is always definite whether the entire expression is definite or not (they are not any _keys_, they are the keys on/related to the _board_). You must add the pronoun to مفاتيح.


edit: oops, it seems Wadi and I gave the answer at the same time.


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## Idris

How do I say this sentence:

"What is the reason of your not giving your keyboard to him?"

Here is my try:

ما سبب عدم إعطائه لوحة مفاحيك؟

or

ما سبب عدم إعطاء لوحة مفاحيك له؟

EDIT: I'm sure both are wrong.


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## WadiH

I would simply say:
لـِـمَ لـَمْ تُعْطـِهِ لوحةَ مفاتيحك؟
(you can use لماذا instead of لـِمَ)

But if you're really set on using "سبب" you can say:
ما سبب عدم إعطائك لوحة مفاتيحك له؟
ما سبب عدم إعطائك إيّاه لوحة مفاتيحك؟


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## Abu Talha

Wadi Hanifa said:


> Well لوحة is defined by مفاتيح, and مفاتيح is defined by ـك.  So you just took out the ألـ and replaced it with the pronoun ـك and therefore it remains definite.
> 
> (an aside: in Arabic, definiteness can occur either through the article ألـ or through إضافة.  The word مفاتيحك is definite by إضافة, or in Arabic معرّف بالإضافة).
> 
> You cannot say لوحتك المفاتيح, but I suppose you can say لوحة المفاتيح الخاصة بك (most people would find this too stilted), or in spoken Arabic you can say: لوحة المفاتيح حقّتك/بتاعتك/مالتك/تبعتك, etc.



Hi, I'm resurrecting this thread because I wanted to get some opinions about when dealing with possession of compound nouns. In most cases it seems that the person more accurately possesses the مضاف not the مضاف إليه . For example the person would possess the board not the keys, in this case.

Could we use something like لوحتك للمفاتيح or is لوحة مفاتيحك the only idiomatic way (for MSA)?

I'll give some more examples to see if there is a general rule that can be applied or if it's on a case-by-case basis:
غرفة النوم
ملابس النوم
 ساعة يد

At least in the case of النوم it seems like you shouldn't possess it but rather the room/clothes. What do you think?

Thanks in advance.


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## Mahaodeh

If it's iDafa, then the pronoun MUST be on the muDaaf ilaihi, i.e., the second word. Hence, it's غرفة نومك - ملابس نومك - ساعة يدك; however, it's understood that the possession is for the room, clothes and watch respectively.


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## Abu Talha

Thanks Mahaodeh. So my question becomes: is it preferable to the iDafa or can you also say ملابسك لــلنوم ?


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## إسكندراني

ملابسك للنوم
is a sentence meaning 'your clothes are for sleeping'


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## WadiH

daee said:


> I'll give some more examples to see if there is a general rule that can be applied or if it's on a case-by-case basis:
> غرفة النوم
> ملابس النوم
> ساعة يد
> 
> At least in the case of النوم it seems like you shouldn't possess it but rather the room/clothes. What do you think?



If you think about it, there's really no reason not to say غرفة نومك (i.e. "the room in which you sleep," rather than "your room for sleeping")
وقس على ذلك


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## Abu Talha

I think I understand. Thanks everyone.


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