# FR: les enfants des immigrés / les enfants d'immigrés



## fluffkin

I have so much trouble with 'de' it's unreal!

I'm inclined to think that because I'm using 'de' in the sense of 'of', I'm correct to use 'des'.

Is this correct?


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## marget

fluffkin said:


> I have so much trouble with 'de' it's unreal!
> 
> I'm inclined to think that because I'm using 'de' in the sense of 'of', I'm correct to use 'des'.
> 
> Is this correct?



It sounds correct to me.


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## Benoît abroad

I think both are correct.


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## Maître Capello

Benoît abroad said:


> I think both are correct.


 I agree (though only for the given example).


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## geostan

fluffkin said:


> I have so much trouble with 'de' it's unreal!
> 
> I'm inclined to think that because I'm using 'de' in the sense of 'of', I'm correct to use 'des'.
> 
> Is this correct?



Both are possible, but they do not mean quite the same thing to me.

With de, the meaning is almost adjectival. "of some unspecified immigrants."
With des, the meaning is more specific, "of THE immigrants."

Other opinions?

Cheers!


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## Benoît abroad

geostan said:


> Both are possible, but they do not mean quite the same thing to me.
> 
> With de, the meaning is almost adjectival. "of some unspecified immigrants."
> With des, the meaning is more specific, "of THE immigrants."
> 
> Other opinions?
> 
> Cheers!


 
Sorry but I don't think so: the meaning of "les enfants des immigrés" without any precision means "immigrés" in general.

If you give some precision, for instance "les enfants des immigrés du quatrième étage" means THOSE immigrants and not other ones.


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## Maître Capello

geostan said:


> Both are possible, but they do not mean quite the same thing to me.
> With de, the meaning is almost adjectival. "of some unspecified immigrants."
> With des, the meaning is more specific, "of THE immigrants."



In French the article _the_/_les_ (contracted with _de _to _des_) may not be as “strong” as in English *in the current example*. I mean that in French both sentences could really be used interchangeably…


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## geostan

For Benoit and Capello: While I bow to your native instincts in the matter, I wonder why one would bother to use the form with "des." I suspect if we had  more context, there could be a difference.

For Capello: You stressed "in the current example." Could you provide a few examples where this would not be the case?

I'm always open to nuances and subtleties!

Cheers!


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## Maître Capello

geostan said:


> For Capello: You stressed "in the current example." Could you provide a few examples where this would not be the case?


_Les enfants *des* villes 
Les enfants *de* villes 
_


> I'm always open to nuances and subtleties!


So am I!


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## geostan

Maître Capello said:


> _Les enfants *des* villes
> Les enfants *de* villes
> _



I agree with these examples. It would never have occurred to me to say "les enfants de villes."

I'm wondering if the difference between the original expressions might be the difference between the following two expressions in English. They both mean more or less the same thing, but the stress is slightly different.

les enfants d'immigrés - immigrant children
les enfants des immigrés - children of immigrants

???


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## radagasty

geostan said:


> les enfants d'immigrés - immigrant children
> les enfants des immigrés - children of immigrants


 
Wouldn't _immigrant children_ simply be _les enfants immigrés_?


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## Maître Capello

geostan said:


> les enfants d'immigrés - immigrant children
> les enfants des immigrés - children of immigrants


_Immigrant children_ rather means _enfants immigrés_ (not _enfants d'/des immigrés_)…

However I'd say the difference between _d'_ and _des_ *might* be similar to _children of  immigrants_ vs. _immigrants' children_. (I'm not too sure as I still haven't fully understood the subtlety between the _of_ construction vs. possessive…)


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## geostan

Maître Capello said:


> _Immigrant children_ rather means _enfants immigrés_ (not _enfants d'/des immigrés_)…
> 
> However I'd say the difference between _d'_ and _des_ *might* be similar to _children of  immigrants_ vs. _immigrants' children_. (I'm not too sure as I still haven't fully understood the subtelty between the _of_ construction vs. possessive…)



Neither have I but the form with the apostrophe s would simply be a variation of "children of immigrants." There would be no difference in meaning.

I'm now wondering if we need a complete sentence to differentiate between the two expressions. How about these?

Les enfants d'immigrés n'ont absolument aucune protection dans ce pays.
Les enfants des immigrés parlent mieux la langue que les parents. 

Or, could either expression be used in both sentences?


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## Maître Capello

geostan said:


> I'm now wondering if we need a complete sentence to differentiate between the two expressions. How about these?
> _Les enfants d'immigrés n'ont absolument aucune protection dans ce pays.
> Les enfants des immigrés parlent mieux la langue que les parents.
> _ Or, could either expression be used in both sentences?


I'd say either one could be used for each:

_ Les enfants *des/d'*immigrés n'ont absolument aucune protection dans ce pays.
Les enfants *des/d'*immigrés parlent mieux la langue que leurs parents._


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## Fred_C

geostan said:


> Both are possible, but they do not mean quite the same thing to me.
> 
> With de, the meaning is almost adjectival. "of some unspecified immigrants."
> With des, the meaning is more specific, "of THE immigrants."
> 
> Other opinions?
> 
> Cheers!


 Hi,
I agree.
In "les enfants des immigrés", "des" is the contraction of "de + les".
In "les enfants d'immigrés", "de" could be the contraction of "de + des" (but it is not very likely in this case), or it could be the preposition "de" with no article at all.
This case where you use the preposition "de" without an article very often corresponds to a case where you use just a noun modified by another noun and no preposition in English.


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## camille veillard

I don't know about which "children of immigrants" you're talking about and if it's helpful, but I can tell you that in France, we (people, medias, politicians...) almost always say "enfants d'immigrés".


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## geostan

camille veillard said:


> I don't know about which "children of immigrants" you're talking about and if it's helpful, but I can tell you that in France, we (people, medias, politicians...) almost always say "enfants d'immigrés".



...unless the immigrants have already been mentioned or identified. Then _des immigrés_ would be necessary.


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## Donaldos

The two expressions do not sound exactly the same to me._ les enfants d'immigrés_ sounds slightly more general and I would expect _les enfants des immigrés _to be used in a more specific context.


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