# sphere & سپهر



## mkh

Hi,

Are ُ*sphere* and *سپهر* (sepehr in Persian means sky) cognate?
sphere in etymonline.com: "space, conceived as a hollow globe about the world,"
سپهر in شاهنامه (shahnameh) from فردوسی (ferdowsi): 
"همي برشد ابر و فرود آمد آب   -----             همي گشت گرد سپهر آفتاب"

Thanks.
Mahdi.


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## Frank06

Hi,

May I suggest that you transcribe the Persian words / translate the Persian sentence(s) in order to give more people a chance to reply. I don't think everybody reads or understands Persian.
May I also suggest that -- if you quote from etymological dictionaries -- you also give the etymology.

Eng. sphere < Middle English _spere_ < Old French _espere_, < Latin _sphaera_ < from Greek _sphaira_.

So, we can see immediately that the question is not about (Modern) English and Persian, but about Greek _sphaira _and Persian, at least so far. 
Do you have an idea about the history of the Persian word? What does your Persian dictionary say about that?

Groetjes,

Frank


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## mkh

Hi,
"همي برشد ابر و فرود آمد آب   -----             همي گشت گرد *سپهر* آفتاب" is from Ferdowsi  935-1020 CE.
means:
"Vapor was rising, and water was falling (it was raining),
---------------- The Sun was circling around the *sky*"
from mibosearch.com: from Middle Persian 224-654 CE هوسپیتر (Huspiter).


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## Lugubert

etymonline.con gives you "Gk. _sphaira_ "globe, ball," of unknown origin."

The Persian dictionary of Steingass has no etymology or origin.

Platts (Urdu) is more interesting: "sipihr, vulg. sipahr [Pehl. śpas; prob, akin to Zend śpār and to Sanskrit sphar or sphur]".

Now to M. Monier-Williams' Sanskrit dictionary. It relates sphur to English spur, spurn, and a Greek spairoo (i.e. not sph-). Some sphar meanings are 'expand, open', which perhaps could be regarded as "akin" to a sphere...


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## mkh

Hi,
From mibosearch.com: سپهر (sepehr) in old Per. was Spiθra.
As you see in many Persian poems or texts, meaning of سپهر is sky, from old times till now.


Lugubert said:


> It relates sphur to English spur, spurn, and a Greek spairoo (i.e. not sph-).


I consider that, two cognate words at least, should have meanings with some relation. 
would you please explain,  the derivation of meaning of *sky* from *spur* or vice versa.

Thanks,
Mahdi.


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## sokol

The old Indoeuropean root (link in resources in this forum, sticky thread, ref. to Köbler, Gerhard: Indogermanisches Wörterbuch) would be *sper- or similar (Latin sphaera, Greek sphaira, but Persian not being listed).

It _could _be that there is an old Indoeuropean relation; _another _possibility would be borrowing from Greek a very long time ago (at the times of Alexander the Great and centuries afterwards there was considerable Greek influence on Persian, although the Islamisation might have wiped out most Greek words - I wouldn't know and can only guess as this is not my field of expertise at all.)

Even though the similarity of the words points to there being some relation, it's _also _possible that the two words are not related at all.
Such pairs of not related words do exist all over the world (see thread "Accidentally similar words" ...).


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## Alijsh

mkh said:


> Hi,
> From mibosearch.com: سپهر (sepehr) in old Per. was Spiθra.
> As you see in many Persian poems or texts, meaning of سپهر is sky, from old times till now.


They should be cognates. On a side note, *θ* (it sounds th as in three) of Old Persian becomes *h* in Middle Persian. We have many such words (e.g. Miθra : Mihr (Mithra); xšaθra: šahr). Also, the final vowel drops in Middle Persian resulting in *spihr*.


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## Asgaard

Hi all,

Related words?

Irish - *spéir* (heaven)
Scottish -*ceabhar*

*gk. *peri-* "around", skt. *pari*- "round , around , about , round about", Avestan. *pairi- *"around" 
*Peri-od
*Spiral - fr.spire, it., lat. spira, gr. speira



and this ...

_from _*: The Bizarre Notes and Queries in History, Folk-lore, Mathematics, Mysticism(1886) ...*  (see Google books)

- on the origin of the word 'sphere':

"The root of the word, however, as given by Dr. Kenealy, is the Hebrew sphr, and means " a book," because the concavity of the heavens was called by the Hebrews a scroll or book. Their word for book is sepher, or sphere, and anciently there was a library at Debir —Kirjath-Sepher, or city of books (Judges i, n ; Isaiah xxxiv, 4). "

Is the above folk etymology??


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## Alijsh

Asgaard said:


> Is the above folk etymology??


I don't think this etymology is right.


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## seyyah

There must also be a connection with the Turkish word "sıfır" (zero), which is a borrowing from Arabic "sifr"  سفر.


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## sokol

Alijsh said:


> Asgaard said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is the above folk etymology??
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think this etymology is right.
Click to expand...


No, it certainly isn't, it's _folk _ethymology.

No way the word from 'sphere' could have been given from Hebrew to Persion, neither from (related) Arab to Persian even if this were possible (theoretically: I'd guess that the Arab consonant root is similar if not identical to the Hebrew one, but I don't know and can only guess), because obviously the root is an Indoeuropean one and present in other languages of the Indoeuropean group.
Of course, there's a distant possibility of some relationship between Indoeuropean and Hamito/Semitic language groups (as was already speculated by some linguists), but this is very vague and would be extremely hard to prove, ever.

But that's not what is behind this folk etymology.
A few centuries ago (this dates back to the Middle ages or probably even further back), some scholars were absolutely convinced that all languages are descendants of Hebrew, for wasn't it the Holy language of the Bible (the Old Testament).
In this context, it would only seem logical to try and find any etymological roots in - Hebrew.


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## sokol

seyyah said:


> There must also be a connection with the Turkish word "sıfır" (zero), which is a borrowing from Arabic "sifr"  سفر.



This is not unlikely, but doesn't contribute to the original question: sifr/sifir is also where Middle Latin 'cifra' and German 'Ziffer' (= _number_) comes from: this is just borrowing and not ethymology.

On the other hand, I think Alijsh already might have solved the riddle, or at least I'm now inclined to believe that the Persian equivalent of 'sphere' should be related to the Latin word not by borrowing, but through common Indoeuropean roots.
But this is just a personal opinion, _not _a scientific opinion, as I'm no specialist in this field.


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## shannenms

Asgaard said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Related words?
> 
> Irish - *spéir* (heaven)
> Scottish -*ceabhar*
> 
> *gk. *peri-* "around", skt. *pari*- "round , around , about , round about", Avestan. *pairi- *"around"
> *Peri-od
> *Spiral - fr.spire, it., lat. spira, gr. speira
> 
> 
> 
> and this ...
> 
> _from _*: The Bizarre Notes and Queries in History, Folk-lore, Mathematics, Mysticism(1886) ...* (see Google books)
> 
> - on the origin of the word 'sphere':
> 
> "The root of the word, however, as given by Dr. Kenealy, is the Hebrew sphr, and means " a book," because the concavity of the heavens was called by the Hebrews a scroll or book. Their word for book is sepher, or sphere, and anciently there was a library at Debir —Kirjath-Sepher, or city of books (Judges i, n ; Isaiah xxxiv, 4). "
> 
> Is the above folk etymology??


 
To complete, I should add speur, meaning heaven or firmament, is cognate with Irish speir and speur; It is derived from Late Latin spera, meaning hemisphere or circle of each planet or celestial region; Compare with Sanskrit spere, meaning sphere or circle " the speir of the moon".

As for the folk etymology, I believe, as Gesenius said, these languages were derived from one language so many times ago, and we have to treat with each aspect of them very carefully. Though the relation seems so vague but we should consider this had undergone ineffable changes.


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## Lugubert

Asgaard said:


> "The root of the word, however, as given by Dr. Kenealy, is the Hebrew sphr, and means " a book," because the concavity of the heavens was called by the Hebrews a scroll or book. Their word for book is sepher, or sphere, and anciently there was a library at Debir —Kirjath-Sepher, or city of books (Judges i, n ; Isaiah xxxiv, 4). "
> 
> Is the above folk etymology??


It sure is. The Hebrew root SPR can be traced back to Akkadian, where it means something written. In those days, writing was on clay slabs, as flat as they could make them. Also, the initial 's' is an ordinary s, but the first letter of Arabic 'zero' is an emphatic 's'. Thus those two words are not related to one another.


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## Mahaodeh

seyyah said:


> There must also be a connection with the Turkish word "sıfır" (zero), which is a borrowing from Arabic "sifr" سفر.


 
I agree with Lugubert, Arabic sifr for zero is صفر, a different letter sometimes translitrated as ts - tsifr, it comes from the root meaning "empty/null". Sifr as you wrote it is another root that comes from the same root as the Hebrew sifr - in Arabic the word meas specifically a very big book and the root holds the meaning of "disclosing/showing", both are two seperate roots with two different types of s and two unrealted meanings.

I don't know about sifr as book, but tsifr as zero is certianly not related.


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## Asgaard

Hi,



Lugubert said:


> The Hebrew root SPR can be traced back to Akkadian,
> where it means something written. In those days, writing was on clay slabs,
> as flat as they could make them.



Not quite so. Lets not forget the 'sumerian' cylinder seals - *kišib_rah*.



Greek '_dung'_, (droppings,pellets) - *spuras*, Attic - *sphuras.
*
*** Is there anyone out there who knows the Ancient Egyptian word for dung? 
      I'm thinking of the Egyptian scarab (*kpr*)

*** Another myth involving the sphere - The myth of Sysiphus (cognate to sphere?)

*** Ancient name of Corinth - Ephyra! (one of the Nereids)
      Pherusa, or Pherousa - "she who carries."(another Nereid)
                  (any connections with Sphere here?)


good luck
Asgaard


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## shannenms

mkh said:


> Hi,
> 
> Are ُ*sphere* and *سپهر* (sepehr in Persian means sky) cognate?
> sphere in etymonline.com: "space, conceived as a hollow globe about the world,"
> سپهر in شاهنامه (shahnameh) from فردوسی (ferdowsi):
> "همي برشد ابر و فرود آمد آب ----- همي گشت گرد سپهر آفتاب"
> 
> Thanks.
> Mahdi.


 
According to S. Nyberg they are related.
A Manual Pahlavi, S.Nyberg, Vol II


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## mkh

Hi,


shannenms said:


> According to S. Nyberg they are related.
> A Manual Pahlavi, S.Nyberg, Vol II


etymonline.com says :"... from Gk. *sphaira *... of *unknown origin*..."
if سپهر and sphere are related;
Is spiθra  older than sphaira or vice versa?
If spiθra in Per. is older than its cognate in GK. "sphaira" so may spiθra  be an origin of sphaira ?

Thanks,
Mahdi.


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## shannenms

mkh said:


> Hi,
> 
> etymonline.com says :"... from Gk. *sphaira *... of *unknown origin*..."
> if سپهر and sphere are related;
> Is spiθra older than sphaira or vice versa?
> If spiθra in Per. is older than its cognate in GK. "sphaira" so may spiθra be an origin of sphaira ?
> 
> Thanks,
> Mahdi.


 
It can not be deduced in this way, because we don't possess all the literatures of the ancient Greek and Persian. Avesta is much older than Iliad but still it shouldn't lead you to this conclusion that Greek Sphaira is taken from Avestan Sepehr. Maybe they are from one common root ( as it seems to me because it is hard to believe to take it that the Greek people had no word for Sky and Heaven and learnd it from anciect Persian).
Good luck.


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## HUMBERT0

seyyah said:


> There must also be a connection with the Turkish word "sıfır" (zero), which is a borrowing from Arabic "sifr"  سفر.


 In spanish we also have cifra. According to DRAE (Del b. lat. _cifra_, este del ár. hisp. _ṣ__ífr,_ y este del ár. clás. _ṣ__ifr_, vacío).


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## xashaiar

Hi everybody,  as frank06 says the question is whether Sphere goes back to Greek or Persian. Urdu does not play any role here for obvious reasons.  I was researching this and I found that  1. Persian (سپهر) goes back to Old Persian (سپیثره) [=sepisere], and that to Pahlavi (هوسپیتر) [=hospeter]. 2. I do not know what the equivalence in Avesta is. 3. There is a claim by Nedelke (?) that the Pahlavi version comes from Sanskrit (seviter).  What does Old Greek lexicon(s) says?  My ref: Dehkhoda Lexicon, Moin Lexicon.    regard Xashaiar


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