# ח‎ - pronunciación



## Qua

Buenos días . Sé que los judíos Sephardi,  los Mizrahi y los  Yemeni pronuncian la n  como j pronunciada desde la faringe . No me refiero a las letras  , sé que en hebreo no existe este sonido de la j pronunciada desde la faringe , sino a los sonidos. Me han dicho que este sonido de j pronunciada desde la faringe se representa con un 7 .

Me gustaría  saber  algunos ejemplos de la pronunciación de la n como j ( pronuciada desde la faringe ) , con palabras . Gracias.

Saludos


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## Qua

Good morning. I know that the Sephardi Jews, Mizrahi and Yemeni pronounced n j as pronounced from the pharynx. I am not referring to the letters, I know that in Hebrew that there is no sound of the j pronounced from the throat but the sounds. I have been told that this sound j sharply from the pharynx is represented by a 7. 

I would like to know some examples of the pronunciation of the N as j (pronuciada from the pharynx), with words. Thanks.


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## Tamar

Some things are not clear: I understand you mean 'j' sound as in Spanish, right? What do N and 7 have to do with it? 
What is it that you want to know - where do Yemenites pronounce a pharyngeal fricative (like in arabic)?


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## elroy

I think Qua is talking about the Hebrew letter ח, which sort of looks like a lower-case n.   The number 7 is often used in transliterations to represent the Arabic equivalent - ح - but not the Hebrew letter ח, which is pronounced more or less like the Spanish _j_ by most native speakers, and like the Arabic ح by others.

There are many Hebrew words that contain this letter, for example חבר (_Haver_), שיחה (_siHa_), and אבטיח (_avateaH_).

I used _H_ to transliterate the letter in my examples.  See this thread for other transliteration possibilities.


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## Tamar

Thanks elroy!

I found two more words: [xayay] ("my life"). [xets] ("arrow"). But Yemenites who do pronounce a ð (IPA), would say it almost at any place where there is a ח (I've been told that this was the original sound of ח in Hebrew, so there was a difference between ח and כ, something you can here when they talk. ). Maybe it isn't pronounced at an end of a word (that's what I can tell from listening a bit to some songs, but I'm not sure about it, maybe someone else could tell us?).


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## Omeriko

Israeli-born Hebrew speakers pronounce it as [χ], in what I perceive as German influence. If I'm not mistaken this is also that way Spaniards (or at least some of them) usually pronounce the letter J nowadays, as opposed to the Latin American pronunciation of the letter.

Some common examples:
חיפה - Haifa (a city in Israel) - ['χajfa] (colloquially; [χɛi'fa] a more formal pronunciation)
מחר - tomorrow - [ma'χa:ʁ]
חלום - dream - [χa'lom]
אנחנו - we - [a'naχnu]
שחקן - player, actor - [saχ'kan]

Hope this helps


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## אדם

Chanukah. Most people seem to pronounce it as Hanukkah these days though. (as if it has a ה instead of a ח -- hey instead of chet)


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## elroy

Omeriko said:


> Israeli-born Hebrew speakers pronounce it as [χ], in what I perceive as German influence.


 What about those whose parents pronounce(d) it differently? 





אדם said:


> Chanukah. Most people seem to pronounce it as Hanukkah these days though. (as if it has a ה instead of a ח -- hey instead of chet)


 Are you talking about English?  In Hebrew it is not pronounced like a ה.


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## Omeriko

elroy said:


> What about those whose parents pronounce(d) it differently?


Interestingly they have an Israeli-born accent as well, which sounds like the common pronunciation they hear in kindergartens, schools, the streets etc. and not like the one in their home. Also true for ר, where you can often find a difference in the pronunciation between parents and their children. From what I see people who came to Israel when young also pronounce those letters the Israeli-born way, even if their parents still don't.


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## Nunty

Omeriko said:


> Interestingly they have an Israeli-born accent as well, which sounds like the common pronunciation they hear in kindergartens, schools, the streets etc. and not like the one in their home. Also true for ר, where you can often find a difference in the pronunciation between parents and their children. From what I see people who came to Israel when young also pronounce those letters the Israeli-born way, even if their parents still don't.



I am Israeli born, as was my father. My mother was born in the US. We spoke Yiddish, Hebrew and English at home, and the Hebrew we spoke at home was with a mostly ashkenazi accent (not pronouncing ע or ח), but pronouncing the vowels and the ת in the modern way.

My father also spoke Arabic pretty well. He spoke Arabic with 7 and 3 (like Hebrew ח and ע) and when he spoke Hebrew with people belonging to עדות המזרח he used sephardi pronunciation. It was kind of game he like to play, showing off his proficiency. 

Most unfortunately I can only pronounce ח if I really think about it, and ע almost never. I lived from the age of 13 or 14 to age 28 in the USA, and that probably has something to do with it.

My point (yes I do have one!) is that even for native-born Israelis the social milieu has a lot to do with how we habitually pronounce the language.


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## אדם

elroy said:


> Are you talking about English?  In Hebrew it is not pronounced like a ה.



Yeah, I was trying to say that it's supposed to be pronounced as Chanukah (with the chet), but a lot of English speakers pronounce it as Hanukah (as if it has a hey). Another good word that I like to think about is כוח (koa*ch*).

Hehe, it's kinda funny that ח is usually associated the spanish j, when ח on a standard QWERTY corresponds with the letter j.


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## Josh_

Interesting thread.  

I was under the impression that the Hebrew ח was only pronounced one way -- like the German 'ch' or the Arabic خ (kha), so it's interesting to note that there is variation.  On the note of this pronunciation, I disagree with Omeriko that it is a sound of German influence, but rather a sound which is found in Semitic languages.  That the German sound and Hebrew sound are similar is just a coincidence.

On a side note, the ח is not only the cognate of Arabic ح, but also خ.  Some examples include Hebrew חמש and Arabic خمسة (khamsa) -- the number five; the Hebrew root ח-נ-ק and Arabic خ-ن-ق (kh-n-q) -- meanings related to choking; and Elroy's example, אבטיח with the Arabic بطيخ (baTTiikh) -- watermelon.  

So it's possible that two distinct letters existed in early Hebrew, one with the raspy sound like the Spanish_ j_ and one with the strongly aspirated _h_ sound like Arabic ح , but then merged into one.  Like might be the case with the Hebrew ע .


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## elroy

Josh_ said:


> I was under the impression that the Hebrew ח was only pronounced one way -- like the German 'ch' or the Arabic خ (kha), so it's interesting to note that there is variation. On the note of this pronunciation, I disagree with Omeriko that it is a sound of German influence, but rather a sound which is found in Semitic languages. That the German sound and Hebrew sound are similar is just a coincidence.


 I think Omerico's point was not that the Hebrew sound came from German, but that not pronouncing ח as an unvoiced pharyngeal fricative (the Arabic ح) but as a voiceless velar fricative (the German _ch _in _Kuchen_) may have been a German influence.


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## Josh_

Possibly, but I'm not convinced. I have no idea how long the ח has been predominantly pronounced as a voiceless velar fricative, but my intuition (which is only right half of the time) tells me that it has been pronounced that way for a long time, long before Hebrew and German intermingled. But as Hebrew has only been resurrected as a popularly spoken language within the last 150 years, with many of the first עולים to Israel coming from Europe and speaking European languages natively, there is no doubt that these languages have had an influence (even if only small) on modern Hebrew pronunciation. So there may be some truth to it. It would be interesting to know the pronunciation differences between modern and ancient Hebrew.


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## Qua

Omeriko said:


> Israeli-born Hebrew speakers pronounce it as [χ], in what I perceive as German influence. If I'm not mistaken this is also that way Spaniards (or at least some of them) usually pronounce the letter J nowadays, as opposed to the Latin American pronunciation of the letter.
> 
> Some common examples:
> חיפה - Haifa (a city in Israel) - ['χajfa] (colloquially; [χɛi'fa] a more formal pronunciation)
> מחר - tomorrow - [ma'χa:ʁ]
> חלום - dream - [χa'lom]
> אנחנו - we - [a'naχnu]
> שחקן - player, actor - [saχ'kan]
> 
> Hope this helps


 
Buenas noches , no sé lo que quieres decir en las palabras entre parentesis ( algunas las comprendo otras no ) . A ver ¿es esto ? :

Palabra             Pronunciación 

Mañana             ma?a
Sueño                   ?
Nosostros               ?
Actor                     ?


1º A lo que me refiero es a la pronunciación de la j en Hebreo . 

2º Sé que hay muchas palabras en español que llevan ache ( *h *) pero que en verdad se pronuncian como *j* . Ejemplos :

Palabra Pronunciación 

*H*anuka *J*anuca
*H*abibi *J*abibi 

3º Hay otras palabras que han perdido su significado original para dar lugar a otras palabras :

*H*uelga es protesta laboral.
*J*uerga es diversión .

Palabras similares a juerga : 

_Jolgorio _es diversión .

_Juergista_ es persona a la que le gusta disfrutar de su tiempo libre o de ocio .

Saludos


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## jdotjdot89

1º:  la j en hebreo es la letra כ.  En hebreo, hay dos letras que se suenan similar al j de español.  כ es lo mismo.  ח originalmente (y todavía hoy día entre los judíos sefardis y los árabes) se suena como la letra ح en árabe sin equivalente en español, pero hoy en día se dice como j y כ por la mayoría de los israelís y hebreohablantes.

2º: Tienens razón que piensas que muchas veces la h verdaderamente debe ser j.  Los dos ejemplos que diste se ecriben con la letra ח cuya pronunciación ya expliqué.

3º:  ¿Tienes una pregunta?  No la veo, si la tienes.


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## jdotjdot89

La razón que la ח a veces se escriba como h es porque el sonido original es en la faringe como dijiste y no verdaderamente es un j.


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## Qua

Buenas , a ver , entonces en hebreo se pronuncia casi de manera similar la j española como una c , escrita al revés ( no tengo o no consigo poner este signo ) .

¿ Y la pronunciación de la n es como el sonido s o cómo qué? Pongame un o algunos ejemplos con palabras por favor.



Saludos


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## Omeriko

Qua said:


> Buenas noches , no sé lo que quieres decir en las palabras entre parentesis ( algunas las comprendo otras no ) . A ver ¿es esto ? :
> 
> Palabra             Pronunciación
> 
> Mañana             ma?a
> Sueño                   ?
> Nosostros               ?
> Actor                     ?


Hola, 

Escribí estas palabras en IPA - International Phonetic Alphabet.
En letras españolas -
Mañana - majar (el 'r' es como en francés o alemán)
Sueño - jalom
Nosotros - anajnu
Actor/jugador -  sajcán



Qua said:


> Buenas , a ver , entonces en hebreo se pronuncia casi de manera similar la j española como una c , escrita al revés .
> 
> ¿ Y la pronunciacin de la n es como el sonido sh ingles o cómo qué? Pongame un o algunos ejemplos con palabras por favor.
> 
> 
> 
> Saludos
> 
> 
> 
> Good, let's see, then in Hebrew is pronounced almost the similarly  j  Spanish  as a c , written upside down.
> 
> And the pronunciation of the n is like the sound sh English or how what?  One or a few examples with words   please.


Pienso que quisiste escribir "English h" - si tiengo razón, la letra hebrea que suena como el h inglesa es ה.  La alta pronunciación de la letra ח es entre j española y h inglesa. Hoy la pronunciación de ח es como j española en España

Por favor corregime si hací faltas en español - ladino es la lingua de mis abuelos y así comprendo español un poco, pero no es perfecto


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## jdotjdot89

Qua said:


> Buenas , a ver , entonces en hebreo se pronuncia casi de manera similar la j española como una c , escrita al revés .
> 
> ¿ Y la pronunciación de la n es como el sonido sh ingles o cómo qué? Pongame un o algunos ejemplos con palabras por favor.
> 
> 
> 
> Saludos
> 
> 
> 
> Good, let's see, then in Hebrew is pronounced almost the similarly  j  Spanish  as a c , written upside down.
> 
> And the pronunciation of the n is like the sound sh English or how what?  One or a few examples with words   please.



Discupla, pero ahora pienso que no he entendido tu pregunta.  ¿Puedes preguntarla otra vez, más clara?


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## Qua

He escrito otra vez mis dudas .


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## Qua

Qua said:


> Buenas , a ver , entonces en hebreo se pronuncia casi de manera similar la j española como una c , escrita al revés ( no tengo o no consigo poner este signo ) .
> 
> ¿ Y la pronunciación de la n es como el sonido s o cómo qué? Pongame un o algunos ejemplos con palabras por favor.
> 
> 
> 
> Saludos


 
Good, let's see, then in Hebrew is pronounced almost in a similar way as the Spanish j c, written upside down (or not I can not put this sign). 

And the pronunciation of the No sound is like how so what? Pongame one or a few examples with words please.


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## jdotjdot89

Ve, pienso que todavía no entiendes.  1º, no es una "c" el revés, es una letra completamente diferente, una letra en hebreo.
Voy a tratar de explicarlo otra vez:

De hebreo a español:
Le letra כ en hebreo se suena como j y se escriba j en español
La letra ח en hebreo se suena como j según ashkenazim (diferente según sefárdim) y se escriba h en español a menudo, pero también se puede escribir como j

ejemplos:
מדריך - madrij (la letra final de la palabra en hebreo es un כ final)
חלה - jalá
חנוכה - Jánuca o hánuka


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## Qua

ke saviya  , no so `` una c al revés´´ .

Que lo  sé  , no es   `` una c al revés ´´.

That I know, is not a c upside down.                To me it seems.


Saludos


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