# Double verb exceptions



## kmoua809

Hoi! I am currently trying to learn Dutch over my summer break and had a few questions. First of all, I know that in Dutch, the second verb is placed at the end of the sentence, however, can somebody tell me why in, "ze is geboren in Zweden", the verb geboren is not last? I am assuming that 'is' is the first verb. This is very confusing, so any help will be greatly appreciated. Dank je wel!

Also, do you leave the second verb in the infinitive form or translate it? For example, I'm going to drive or he has received...


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## Lopes

Hi, 

Your questions are a bit vague, what do you mean by first and second verb?


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## kmoua809

Well, when there is more than one verb in a sentence, doesn't one get placed at the end of the sentence?  As well as with infinitives?


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## kmoua809

Actually, if I wanted to say, I tried to paint the picture, would the sentence be read (I don't know the dutch words for these yet): I tried the picture to paint.  With to paint, being left in the infinitive form, whereas, if I said, I have defeated the enemy, the word 'defeated' would be in the past tense, and also at the end of the sentence.  

In all dutch sentences, when there is more than one verb, does all but the first one to occur get moved to the end of the sentence?


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## Peterdg

Both options are valid: "Ze is geboren in Zweden" or "Ze is in Zweden geboren". 

"is geboren" are no really two verbs. It's one, conjugated verb. (Actually, it's kind of special, like in English: "to be born"; it's not possible to use it without the auxiliary "to be").

I'm a native speaker of Dutch and the truth is I don't know the rules. I apply them by instinct. But I have quite a number of non native friends who tell me that the word sequence in Dutch is a real pain in the ass for them.


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## Shayrubine

It is a real pain in the ass at the beginning 

But I think I know what you mean Kmoua... There are certain sentences in Dutch where you put two, sometimes three verbs in the infinitive form at the end of the sentence (not always at the end though).

Examples: Ik heb mijn zus kunnen bellen. Means: I was able to call my sister.

That's called the "double infinitive". 

That was just an example, but I really can't explain you the rules since I now apply them without thinking... What I remember is that it's always (not sure if there are exceptions) with words like _kunnen _(be able to), _mogen _(have the autorization to), _laten _(let)_, willen _(want) that even have a specific name (which I of course don't recall now).

Hope I didn't mess with your head here!

Shay


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## Kayla321

That special name is _koppelwerkwoorden_.

Wikipedia: http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koppelwerkwoord


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## Peterdg

Kayla321 said:


> That special name is _koppelwerkwoorden_.
> 
> Wikipedia: http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koppelwerkwoord


 
Don't agree. They are "modal verbs" or in Dutch: "modale werkwoorden".


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## Lopes

Shayrubine said:


> There are certain sentences in Dutch where you put two, sometimes three verbs in the infinitive form at the end of the sentence (not always at the end though).



Do you like the sentence "Ik zou je graag hebben willen kunnen laten winnen"? 

That's almost a piece of art! 

I'm not sure it's correct though.. 

But that's also not necessarily in the end of the sentence, you could put things behind it like "gisteren" or "op het toernooi."


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## Beninjam

Verb placement in Dutch is one of the hazards that frequently trips up the non-native.


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## Donderdag

Lopes said:


> Do you like the sentence "Ik zou je graag hebben willen kunnen laten winnen"?
> 
> That's almost a piece of art!
> 
> I'm not sure it's correct though..



Don't think that's correct Dutch :d 

Ignoring the fact that this sentence will never ever be used because it doesn't make much sense, I'd phrase it as:

Ik zou graag gewild hebben je te kunnen laten winnen.

But I think it's not possible to use _willen kunnen & hebben_ all in one (correct) sentence and all in infinitive


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## Peterdg

Donderdag said:


> But I think it's not possible to use _willen kunnen & hebben_ all in one (correct) sentence and all in infinitive


What about: "Ik had het kunnen hebben"?
or "Ik zou het kunnen hebben laten weghalen".

To me, Lopes' sentence is acceptable.

PD. Oops, I didn't see you put three verbs out there. Anyway, as said before, I think Lopes's sentence...


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## Chimel

kmoua809 said:


> Actually, if I wanted to say, I tried to paint the picture, would the sentence be read (I don't know the dutch words for these yet): I tried the picture to paint. With to paint, being left in the infinitive form, whereas, if I said, I have defeated the enemy, the word 'defeated' would be in the past tense, and also at the end of the sentence.
> 
> In all dutch sentences, when there is more than one verb, does all but the first one to occur get moved to the end of the sentence?


I'm afraid the way you asked your question is a bit confusing. You speak of "more than two verbs", so some people here thought you meant rather complex structures like double infinitives ("heb kunnen doen" and so on).

Actually, your question is more basic, which is normal as you start with Dutch. But in "I have defeated the enemy", there is *one* verb (to defeat), which happens to be here in two parts! And yes, in Dutch, the "second part" (past participle) is normally at the end of the sentence. Your example would be read "*I have the enemy defeated".

Now, there is some flexibility in this rule. When the sentence is very long, it may be that this past participle is not quite at the end (but rather at the end of the main idea). And when the second part is not felt as a real past participle, like in "Hij is geboren/He is born" (also see Peterdg's reply above), it is sometimes treated as one entity.

But you're certainly not wrong by saying "Hij is in Zweden geboren" and I would advise to start by applying the normal rule.


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## Lopes

Donderdag said:


> Don't think that's correct Dutch :d
> 
> Ignoring the fact that this sentence will never ever be used because it doesn't make much sense, I'd phrase it as:
> 
> Ik zou graag gewild hebben je te kunnen laten winnen.
> 
> But I think it's not possible to use _willen kunnen & hebben_ all in one (correct) sentence and all in infinitive



I agree, like this it makes no sense, but I think if you switch willen en hebben I think "Ik zou je graag willen hebben kunnen laten winnen" would be correct.


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## Kayla321

LOL Aren't you just creating problems? I would say "ik had je graag laten winnen".


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## Lopes

Kayla321 said:


> LOL Aren't you just creating problems? I would say "ik had je graag laten winnen".



Yeah I would never really say that obviously, but I do think it is gramatically correct. Just trying to get into the Guinness book of records


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## kmoua809

Shayrubine said:


> .
> 
> Hope I didn't mess with your head here!
> 
> Shay




Oh la la, oui!  Néerlandais est vraiment difficile, mais le francais, pour moi, est facile.


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## Suehil

This thread was becoming a linguistic war zone, it has now been closed.


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