# Yiddish transliteration



## ahvalj

What is considered a more appropriate way of transliterating Yiddish with Latin letters: to revert the words to their German prototypes (_sagen, Brot, dünn, Maus, Reutemann_) or to forget about etymology and write the words as they actually sounded (_zogn, broyt, din, moyz, Roytman_)? What to do with Hebrew and Slavic loans?


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## Hulalessar

Neither of your suggestions would be likely to produce a strict transliteration.

A transliteration aims to represent the graphemes of one system by the graphemes of another on a consistent basis and ignoring the fact that a grapheme may have more than one value. So, taking Russian as an example, since I know no Yiddish and studied Russian half a century ago, if transliterating the word <его> you will write <yego> and not <yevo>.

Writing the words as they actually sound is more correctly described as a transcription. The graphemes chosen will depend on whom the transcription is aimed at and how much accuracy is required or possible given the system chosen. A transcription will usually involve some compromise if the system chosen has no way of representing all the sounds of the language being transcribed. So, taking Russian as an example again, if transcribing the word_ <_шум> you will write <shum> for English speakers, <schum> for German speakers and <choum> for French speakers. If you are aiming at Spanish speakers you have a slight problem as there is no way of representing /ʃ/ in Spanish orthography, though <sh> seems to be generally accepted.

Reverting to German prototypes looks like a step too far and halfway to translating into Standard German.


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## berndf

You have the YIVO transliteration rules which is the closest you can get to anything "official". But they are aimed at English speaking audience.



ahvalj said:


> the words as they actually sounded (_zogn, br*oy*t, din, m*oy*z, R*oy*tman_)?


The highlighted transliteration is not exactly "how it really sounds" but it is a phonemic/graphemic transcription of <ױ> independently of its actual pronunciation. It is phonetic ([ɔj]) only for the Galitzish dialect. In Lithuanian (which used to be the literary standard) the pronunciation is [ej]~[ɛj] and in Western Yiddish (at least Northern Western Yiddish as it was spoken in the Netherlands and NW Germany) [ɔu].


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## ahvalj

Thanks.

Concerning Roytman, there is a journalist with this surname ([ Радио Свобода: Сотрудники ]), and I had a classmate (well, actually he studied in the parallel class) with the surname Broydo (Олег Бройдо, Коммерческий директор | Executive.ru) that seems to originate from _Ungarisch Brod_ (Uherský Brod – Wikipedia), so I am somewhat biased towards this _oy_ ,-)


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## berndf

Southern Eastern Yiddish is probably the dialect with most modern speakers. So, not surprising.


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## Forero

So:

_Yiddish_ or _Iddish_?
_Beygelakh_ un _rugalakh_ or _beygelekh_ un _rugelekh_?
_Shabus_ or _Shabas_?
_Tevye_ or _Tovya_?


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## berndf

Forero said:


> So:
> 
> _Yiddish_ or _Iddish_?
> _Beygelakh_ un _rugalakh_ or _beygelekh_ un _rugelekh_?
> _Shabus_ or _Shabas_?
> _Tevye_ or _Tovya_?


I don't understand you. What _Iddish_ supposed to mean?


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## Forero

berndf said:


> I don't understand you. What _Iddish_ supposed to mean?


Same as _Yiddish_. (It is not my language, but a Yiddish speaker told me it was spelled אידיש.)

I am asking about transliteration of Yiddish words into Latin letters.


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## berndf

Forero said:


> spelled אידיש


Wow. I have never come across that spelling. What dialect is that?


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## Forero

berndf said:


> Wow. I have never come across that spelling. What dialect is that?


(Unfortunately I can't ask him since he and his son have since passed away.)

The man also spoke Russian. Does that help?

(He started yinglakh the same way, and he pronounced them with [ʔiː].)

(Maybe he couldn't spell.) I see the most common spelling is probably יידיש. Should that be transliterated "Eydish" by the YIVO rules?


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## berndf

No, in יידיש the first yud represents a [j] and the second an [ i ]. To disambiguate a word initial diphthong יי from [ji] you put an aleph in front, like in איין.


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## Forero

berndf said:


> No, in יידיש the first yud represents a [j] and the second an [ i ]. To disambiguate a word initial diphthong יי from [ji] you put an aleph in front, like in איין.


That makes sense. And then the transliteration would start with "yi", right?

What about my other examples?


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## berndf

Forero said:


> And then the transliteration would start with "yi", right?


Right.


Forero said:


> What about my other examples?





Forero said:


> _Beygelakh_ un _rugalakh_ or _beygelekh_ un _rugelekh_?


Based on spelling with Aramaic letters, it should be _beygelekh_ and _rogalekh_.


Forero said:


> _Shabus_ or _Shabas_?


This is a bit trickier because in Aramaic letters there is no "farteytshte" spelling and hence no systematic transcription but the original Hebrew spelling is retained. But I would write _shabes_.


Forero said:


> _Tevye_ or _Tovya_?


The original spelling is _טעוויע_, which would be _Tevye_.


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## Forero

berndf said:


> The original spelling is _טעוויע_, which would be _Tevye_.


That's on the front cover. On the next page, it's טביה; and on the next טוביה (Is that Polish?). I assumed it was Hebrew for "Toby" and would be spelled as in Hebrew.


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## berndf

Forero said:


> On the next page, it's טביה; and on the next טוביה (Is that Polish?). I assumed it was Hebrew for "Toby" and would be spelled as in Hebrew.


Well... טוביה [tovja] is the Hebrew origin of the name to be analysed as טוב = _good_ and יה =  _God_ (shortened and pronouncable form of יהוה). And  טעוויע is a phonetic respelling of the Yiddish pronunciation of the Hebrew name.

_Toby_ is from Greek Τοβίας (_Tobias_), which is in turn from טוביה. So, "_Toby_ is English for טוביה" and not the other way round.


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## Forero

berndf said:


> Well... טוביה [tovja] is the Hebrew origin of the name to be analysed as טוב = _good_ and יה =  _God_ (shortened and pronouncable form of יהוה).
> 
> _Toby_ is from Greek Τοβίας (_Tobias_) which is in turn from טוביה. So, "_Toby_ is English for טוביה" and not the other way round.


Sorry, I meant, was that other language Polish (on the page with טוביה)?

On different pages I see "טעוויע דער מילכיקער", "טבֿיה דער מילכיגער", and "טוביה דער מילכיקער". I assume all three are Yiddish, so how should they be transliterated?


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## berndf

Those are various degrees of faithfulness to the Herbrew origin. The thing is that Hebrew and Aramaic loans are usually not phonetically respelled, even if the colloquial Yiddish pronunciation differs from the (Ashkenazi) pronunciation of the original.

I have once seen a Modern Israeli Hebrew rendition of the name of the character as טוביה with Segols underneath the ט and the י  to indicate that it should be pronounced _Tevje_. I think that is how Yiddish versions like טבֿיה should be interpreted too.

In Soviet times there was some pressure to use phonetic respelling of Hebrew and Aramaic words. I don't know exactly why, probably to secularise Yiddish culture.


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## Forero

berndf said:


> Those are various degrees of faithfulness to the Herbrew origin. The thing is that Hebrew and Aramaic loans are usually not phonetically respelled, even if the colloquial Yiddish pronunciation differs from the (Ashkenazi) pronunciation of the original.
> 
> I have once seen a Modern Israeli Hebrew rendition of the name of the character as טוביה with Segols underneath the ט and the י  to indicate that it should be pronounced _Tevje_. I think that is how Yiddish versions like טבֿיה should be interpreted too.
> 
> In Soviet times there was some pressure to use phonetic respelling of Hebrew and Aramaic words. I don't know exactly why, probably to secularise Yiddish culture.


So, Tevye for all three?


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## berndf

Forero said:


> So, Tevye for all three?


That would be my not entirely uneducated guess, yes. But I don't claim to be an expert on Yiddish.


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