# Handwriting



## lmyyyks

Hello
I'm a newbie in learning Russian
The alphabets are new to me, I'd like to know if there are any sources that I can learn how to write them *by hand*
I can identify the russian text in typed form, but I don't know how to write them using a pen.

For example, the non-capitalized "T" looks exactly an "m", but then it seems very hard to distinguish it from the real "m"

Thanks everyone


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## slavic_one

Well if other letters in word or sentence are cyrillic, it's very probable that that "m" is cyrillic "t" 
You have cyrillic cursive in Wiki, here it's impossible to write it (don't know why).


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## sokol

Small 't' looks something like 'm', yes, but Cyrillic 'm' does not look at all like the Latin 'm' (well - not at all is not quite correct, but not very much so anyway).
What _really _looks very close in Cyrillic writing may be Cyrillic 't' and Cyrillic 'sh' if written with a fast hand not following exactly the 'school-type' letter, and I think Serbians like to use a horizontal bar above the Cyrillic 't' to clearly differentiate it from the Cyrillic 'sh' (which of course both look approximately like Latin 'm') - if I remember this correctly.
Same goes for Cyrillic 'i' and Cyrillic 'p' in small letters who both may look very nearly like Latin 'n' or 'u', and also here (if I remember correctly) Serbians like to distinguish Cyrillic 'p' with a horizontal bar above it.
(You won't find that one on a Wiki course I think.)

Don't know however if Russians also do this, or have other means of distinguishing letters which might, according to the individual handwriting, look very similar.


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## palomnik

The Russian handwritten т looks the way it does since in older Slavonic script the handwritten letter had two "hooks" hanging down from both ends so that it looked sort of like an upside-down ш.

There is a variant for handwriting т which looks like a printed т and does not connect with the following letter. Most texts for foreigners consider it to be substandard and you're only likely to encounter it when you start reading Russian handwriting for real.


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## TheGist

I wonder wether it's so important to learn Russian handwriting for someone who just started to learn Russian. Maybe it would be a better idea to use the time for something else like learning new words and expressions or learning to speak fluently without making mistakes with all these endings and stuff. I myself, being a native Russian speaker, seldom use handwriting (I only used it at school, i guess). I prefer to "type" letters when i write them by hand, and MY letters look pretty much the same as if they were typed with a typewriter of whatever.


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## TarisWerewolf

I don't speak Russian, but my advice is that you should learn the writing system. For all the languages I've attempted to study over the years, the ones I retain the most of are the ones where I've learned to write the letters and actually written out phrases. It's a very tactile thing and it's something that will help you remember it (moreso than typing). That and when you try to read Russian on the net, anything that's written in italics is cursive (a native can correct me on this one). I remember once having to reproduce a flyer for an organization I was doing website work for and the flyer was all in italics. It took me FOREVER to copy it 'cause I couldn't read the italic letters that were different from the block letters.


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## sokol

TarisWerewolf said:


> That and when you try to read Russian on the net, anything that's written in italics is cursive (a native can correct me on this one).



This is correct, Russian italics are quite different, you would have some troubles reading Russian italics if you only know normal letters. Knowing Russian handwriting helps a lot with Russian italics of course.

Apart from that, Russian italics are just beautiful  (while Russian handwriting is rather strange for those who only know Latin handwriting). Nevertheless I did quite some handwriting in Cyrillic script (in Serbian) some years ago to get the hang of it; I've almost forgotten about that, but I still can read Cyrillic italics and handwriting.


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## TheGist

TarisWerewolf said:


> I don't speak Russian, but my advice is that you should learn the writing system. <...>
> 
> That and when you try to read Russian on the net, anything that's written in italics is cursive (a native can correct me on this one). <...>
> 
> It took me FOREVER to copy it 'cause I couldn't read the italic letters that were different from the block letters.  <...>



Italics and handwriting are not quite the same thing. Even though some italic letters do resemble handwriting, it is still not the case with a lot of other letters, let alone all this lines used to connect the letters in handwriting. For example, Russian 'д' usually looks like _д_ in italics, but is similar to 'g' in handwriting. And trust me, some Russian handwriting is way to difficult to understand even for native speakers, depending on the person who wrote it (or jotted down in haste). The well known example is the handwriting of doctors who write so sloppy that no one except themselves can actually make it out. And the question is then, should a Russian learner really try all that hard to learn how to read doctor's handwriting???


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## TheGist

Hmm, it's funny. The Russian 'д' in italics looks on this website not the way i intended it when i was posting the previous post. I meant the 'д' that looks like '6' written backwards.   But it has shown that it is not necessary to know all these letter variations, at least not on this site.


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## sokol

TheGist said:


> And the question is then, should a Russian learner really try all that hard to learn how to read doctor's handwriting???



Not a doctor's handwriting certainly! 
(By the way, the same problem occurs here - doctors all around the world seem to think that they do not have to bother with readable handwriting.)

Nevertheless I think it *is *a good idea to learn the handwriting of the language you are learning if it is considerably different from your own.
There are even different norms of handwriting in countries using Latin script; not even Austria and Germany have the same styles of handwriting, French style also is different, etc. - but in these cases it is usually very easy to decipher the foreign handwriting, or at most you only have to get accustomed to the odd letter being written different.

The same also occurs for Cyrillic alphabets, e. g. Serbian handwriting has no 'g'-like looking 'd = д', Serbian 'д' is rather similar to Latin handwritten 'd'.

But of course you can get by without learning Russian handwriting. Further it is one thing to learn only read it and another one to produce it - the latter is much more difficult, but nevertheless not very difficult, I'd say. (I managed to learn Russian handwriting while I never did learn Russian properly, I only have passive knowledge of the language, on a very low level of proficiency.)



TheGist said:


> Hmm, it's funny. The Russian 'д' in italics looks on this website not the way i intended it when i was posting the previous post. I meant the 'д' that looks like '6' written backwards.



This >'6' written backwards< is the Serbian handwritten 'д' and also the Russian italics 'д' in all Cyrillic TrueType fonts I know and use. Come to think of it, Russian italic fonts are somewhat closer to Latin fonts than 'hardcore' Russian handwriting.
It would be interesting if this has already had any influence on individual handwriting styles - but this probably would be off topic here (and then also difficult to discuss, because how should we post individual styles?! ).


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## venenum

sokol said:


> What _really _looks very close in Cyrillic writing may be Cyrillic 't' and Cyrillic 'sh' if written with a fast hand not following exactly the 'school-type' letter, and I think Serbians like to use a horizontal bar above the Cyrillic 't' to clearly differentiate it from the Cyrillic 'sh' (which of course both look approximately like Latin 'm') - if I remember this correctly.
> Same goes for Cyrillic 'i' and Cyrillic 'p' in small letters who both may look very nearly like Latin 'n' or 'u', and also here (if I remember correctly) Serbians like to distinguish Cyrillic 'p' with a horizontal bar above it.
> (You won't find that one on a Wiki course I think.)



I don't know much about the Russian alphabet, but (unless the official Serbian spelling has changed in the last 10 years) I do have to correct you concerning the Serbian Cyrillic handwritten letters: it is _mandatory_ to put a horizontal bar over the letters "p" and "t", to distinguish them from "i" and "sh" - since both "p" and "i" are written like the Latin letter "u", and "t" and "sh" are both written as two consecutive u's. The optional part is a horizontal bar _under_ the letter "sh", so you wouldn't confuse it with "mi", since in speed-writing, the letter "m" can resemble "i", and when they are combined, it's hard to tell "mi" and "sh" apart.
Wiki says that this is a major difference between Serbian and Russian alphabet - Russians use the equivalent of Latin "m" for "t" and "n" for "p".

Edit: also, the hand-written letter "d" did look like the Latin "g" 10 years ago - I don't know if they've changed it since. The capital "D" looked somewhat like a number 2, and the letter "b" somewhat resembled the Latin d.


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## sokol

venenum said:


> Edit: also, the hand-written letter "d" did look like the Latin "g" 10 years ago - I don't know if they've changed it since. The capital "D" looked somewhat like a number 2, and the letter "b" somewhat resembled the Latin d.


Thanks for clarification, and as an addition: the "d" written not like "g" in Serbian but rather like reversed "6" is something which a student in Graz, Austria (of Serbian origin) used, that's where I got it; it may have been a personal style of this person (and not actual school norm of written Cyrillic letters), that I don't know.


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## palomnik

It's an interesting question.  How important is it for a foreigner to learn handwriting?  When I studied Russian thirty years ago it was pointless to ask such a question; there was no other way for the average student to produce anything on paper for class without learning the handwriting, unless you had a spare Cyrillic typewriter (or, by the 1980's, a Cyrillic element for your electric typerwiter), which of course entailed learning how to type in Russian as well.  Now anybody can use their PC to write Cyrillic.

Still, I tend to agree with Tariswerewolf that learning handwriting is an important step in internalizing a language. When I worked on Arabic, Japanese and Chinese it helped immensely to learn to write the language with a proper hand - i.e., the way the natives write it and not just the local version of block printing.  On the other hand, I have had considerable difficulties learning south Asian languages when I tried to merely learn the letters and not actually spend time writing out words and sentences with acceptable penmanship.


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## lmyyyks

palomnik said:


> It's an interesting question. How important is it for a foreigner to learn handwriting? When I studied Russian thirty years ago it was pointless to ask such a question; there was no other way for the average student to produce anything on paper for class without learning the handwriting, unless you had a spare Cyrillic typewriter (or, by the 1980's, a Cyrillic element for your electric typerwiter), which of course entailed learning how to type in Russian as well. Now anybody can use their PC to write Cyrillic.
> 
> Still, I tend to agree with Tariswerewolf that learning handwriting is an important step in internalizing a language. When I worked on Arabic, Japanese and Chinese it helped immensely to learn to write the language with a proper hand - i.e., the way the natives write it and not just the local version of block printing. On the other hand, I have had considerable difficulties learning south Asian languages when I tried to merely learn the letters and not actually spend time writing out words and sentences with acceptable penmanship.


Well, because I have some notes teaching Russian with some exercise in it. Moreover, I want to drop some notes. It seems weird to use English-equivalent alphabets to denote Russian words.


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## venenum

sokol said:


> Thanks for clarification, and as an addition: the "d" written not like "g" in Serbian but rather like reversed "6" is something which a student in Graz, Austria (of Serbian origin) used, that's where I got it; it may have been a personal style of this person (and not actual school norm of written Cyrillic letters), that I don't know.



It was probably his "well-written" handwriting, although the "reversed 6" description actually reminds me of the letter "b". I've learned Cyrillic script at school a long time ago, but it's been over 10 years since I've either used it or read any handwritten Cyrillic text, so your comments were a bit confusing. Maybe we should ask some of the natives, who actually use it on a daily basis?
I've actually always found Cyrillic handwriting very hard to read - even my own, and the "well-written" handwritings which use personalized, adapted letters, were always my nightmare. Thank good I'm not a schoolteacher in Serbia (or any other country which uses Cyrillic script) - I honestly don't know how I would correct the students' papers and notebooks!


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## Maroseika

sokol said:


> Same goes for Cyrillic 'i' and Cyrillic 'p' in small letters who both may look very nearly like Latin 'n' or 'u', and also here (if I remember correctly) Serbians like to distinguish Cyrillic 'p' with a horizontal bar above it.


In Russian handwritten и's and п's are never marked, but т's and ш's are marked very often exactly the way you have described - with a horisontal bar above (т) or under (ш) the letter.
However actually the main goal of this mark is not to distinguish т from ш, because I can hardly imagine a word were it might be really necessary. But we use these bars just to mark this letter out of a row of very similar hooks which it's rather hard to divide into the separate letters. Just imagine how look the following words without special marks: шитик, шишига, лишить, пилить and so on.


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## Duya

sokol said:


> Same goes for Cyrillic 'i' and Cyrillic 'p' in small letters who both may look very nearly like Latin 'n' or 'u', and also here (if I remember correctly) Serbians like to distinguish Cyrillic 'p' with a horizontal bar above it.
> (You won't find that one on a Wiki course I think.)
> 
> Don't know however if Russians also do this, or have other means of distinguishing letters which might, according to the individual handwriting, look very similar.



The correct Serbian handwriting is presented (at I assert the validity of the image) at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_Cyrillic. Like venenum said, the underlining bar under lowercase Ш is optional. 

The typographic difference between italic/handwritten lowercase letters in Serbian and other Cyrillic alphabets -- which poses a problem even for Unicode commitee -- is explained here: http://jankojs.tripod.com/SerbianCyr.htm


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## sokol

venenum said:


> Maybe we should ask some of the natives, who actually use it on a daily basis?


Of course native speakers' input would be most welcome here. 

So many thanks to you, Duya! 



venenum said:


> I've actually always found Cyrillic handwriting very hard to read - even my own, and the "well-written" handwritings which use personalized, adapted letters, were always my nightmare.


Well, I once could write fluently (but now I am completely out of practice) and I could read my own handwriting quite okay, but foreign hands really were difficult. But then I didn't read a lot in Cyrillic handwriting - the purpose in learning Cyrillc handwriting had been to get a feeling for the script. I never did intend (and never did) write an essay or something like that in Cyrillic.


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## Nanon

I think Russian learners should definitely learn to read handwriting. If they go to Russia, they will probably see some (even very short) handwritten material.
It doesn't mean that learners have to change their habits to produce the handwriting style that is taught at Russian schools.

Like Palomnik, I had no other solution when I studied Russian, back in the '70-'80s. Yet nowadays it is extremely useful for me to be able to take quick notes in Russian when I am in Russia.

My own style in both Latin and Cyrillic is a hybrid of classical handwriting mixed with some print characters and bent to the right (the French school handwriting style has no right slant, my handwriting has but it does not come from the Russian script) Unfortunately, since I write too fast and my penmanship has been spoilt by the overuse of computers, it's a doctor's handwriting in any language anyway


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## kt_11

in my experience/opinion, using lines under sh, over 't' is a matter of personal style.. my grama did that. same goes for using 'g' vs. reverse 6 for D.. i use both depending on the mood  

depending on how far u plan to take your learning of Russian, i would rec'd at least being able to recognize the written letters, i also prefer to take notes while learning a language so it might help.


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## Manticore

I just ran into this topic through google, although I've been using this site's dictionary for a very long time. I've been trying to learn Russian for quite a while now. I'm rather slow at it, but stuff seems to stick eventually. The one thing I really do have problems with is the handwriting, I mean I can read italics, but of all the russian, or generally speaking cyrillic handwritten texts I've seen up until now, I've never been able to make out more than isolated words or very common idioms.

Dunno why, but the way that the words are linked together makes the whole thing a blur. I for one like to write letters as isolated as possible, but since I can understand my own cyrillic writing just as well as latin writing, and I'm unable to make out anything of authentic cyrillic handwritings, I really doubt that my writing _is_ proper cyrillic at all...

I was wondering if any people who write cyrillic in their native language could give me a hand here... 

Moderator note: The link has been edited out in accordance with rule 17.


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## Manticore

So that means you understood what I have written? Does it look roughly authentic or is it just intelligible scribble?


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## Ptak

I'm a Russian native and I must say your handwriting is perfectly understandable and doesn't look 'non-native' (it's only there's a mistake there: *парен* instead of *парень*). But you should understand that every native writes in his own way, and you probably know that it's called "почерк" in Russian. Почерк is an individual manner of handwriting. So it's not a surprise that your handwriting looks OK. Why can't you have your own manner of handwriting? 

P.S. By the way, your 'п' is a bit strange. But it doesn't mean that a native couldn't write like that.


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## Manticore

my main concern was that I've seen a lot of Russian handwriting lately and all of it looked neither legible (to me) nor any similar to mine... I just figured I might have a problem there


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## Ptak

Manticore said:


> I've seen a lot of Russian handwriting lately and all of it looked neither legible (to me) nor any similar to mine...


There are many of handwritings which are not similar to each other


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## Manticore

Well in this case the difference was so big it made me _run_ (not walk ) to my computer and check for any advice on cyrillic handwriting on google. Sadly there wasn't a whole lot thereof, except maybe this thread... I think the main thing that ticked me off was that I really don't understand how you can tie letters together in cyrillic and still be able to make stuff out. As I mentioned I try not to do that at all, how about you? could you give me a sample of your writing so I can compare, or any advice on bonding letters?

Oh and by the way, what would п look like if done by the book? I tried to make it look like the Greek 'pi' I used in maths, which is probably it's ancestor...


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## Ptak

Manticore said:


> I think the main thing that ticked me off was that I really don't understand how you can tie letters together in cyrillic and still be able to make stuff out.


I could ask, "how can you tie words together in English speech and still be able to make stuff out??!" Because I can't -- you speak too quickly! 
I think everyone ties letters in writing intuitively, without thinking how to do. And everyone has his own manner. Someone who reads the stuff, doesn't try to make out every separate letter, he just perceives it all together. You see, it's like it happens in speech: sometimes you could not make out certain word(s), but context always helps you to understand the whole sentence and to figure out the word then.
There's a thing I've heard about: if you write a sentence where words would contain all their letters, only in an 'entangled' order, you'll understand the words and the sentence anyway (you you're a native, of course). Only the first and the latter letters should be in the right positions. For example:

_Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at an Elingsh uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer is at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae we do not raed ervey lteter by it slef but the wrod as a wlohe._

Well, something like that feels a Russian when he reads a Russian handwriting. 



> Oh and by the way, what would п look like if done by the book? I tried to make it look like the Greek 'pi' I used in maths, which is probably it's ancestor...


I didn't understand well what you mean "done by the book". The small Russian "п" in handwriting looks exactly like the small English "n".


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## Manticore

Ptak said:


> I didn't understand well what you mean "done by the book". The small Russian "п" in handwriting looks exactly like the small English "n".



yep, that's what I meant! - and yes, I know reading goes faster according to experience, but hey, my vocabulary isn't really that inclusive so I'll regularly have to look individual words up... which of course means there's no room for intuitive recognition on that bit of text... On the other hand, you as a Russian may also occasionally encounter words you don't know, but more often than not you'll still be able to read them. It really comes down to having contact with many authentic samples of handwriting... you know of any resources?


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## Tate_Harmann

I definitely need to learn how to write Russian, I feel it helps me learn a bit faster.  But I was wondering if there is only one system of writing in Russian?  Because it seems that the system being discussed here (and the only one I've ever seen) closely resembles the cursive system in English.  Mostly everybody here in the Midwest of the US had to learn that system in elementary  school but few actually use it on a day to day basis (except when writing checks).  I've noticed that the majority use a different writing system that resembles the printed letters.  Some say that it takes longer to write but it's always what I use when taking notes or studying.  But from what I've seen, there is no such system in Russian handwriting...it's cursive or nothing.  Is that true?

Thanks,


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## Panda Nocta

Tate_Harmann said:


> I've noticed that the majority use a different writing system that resembles the printed letters.  Some say that it takes longer to write but it's always what I use when taking notes or studying.  But from what I've seen, there is no such system in Russian handwriting...it's cursive or nothing.  Is that true?


I used to spell with the printed letters, Russian classes being the only exception.


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## Tate_Harmann

So when an average Russian person takes notes they are using the cursive version of Cyrillic?


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## Kazman

I just quickly Googled "Russian handwriting" and found a site that shows how the Russian letters look when handwritten. The address is: masterrussian.com/blalphabet.shtml. I hope this resource helps (it doesn't show how to write the letters, just how they look).
Once you get the hang of writing Cyrillic, you'll find it's really fun (maybe you won't be able to stop! :-} ).


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## cyanista

Check out the website http://www.dailytype.ru/ .
It is a project run by several russian type designers who create original typefaces (Latin and Cyrillic). There are quite a lot of fonts that imitate handwriting. Just browse around a bit and test your abilities. 


Here you can find samples of old Russian handwriting. BUT you have to be cautious with those scripts because 1) some spelling and calligraphic conventions have changed and 2) there are some transcription mistakes, such as фебраля (correct февраля). So... mostly useful for advanced learners, I guess.


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## Tate_Harmann

Thanks guys!~


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