# Он разговаривает Иваном Семёновичем у себя в комнате.



## wonlon

mycHi, I need your help in my translation exercise again.
The chapter is mainly about Russian names, along with conjugations of foreign names.

Questions: *He is talking with Иван Семёнович in his room. *(free translation from Chinese.)

 The reference answer: *Он разгова́ривает с Ива́ном Семёновичем у себя́ в ко́мнате.*

My answer: *Он говори́т в **свое́й** ко́мнате с Ива́ном Семёновичем.*

Is my answer correct? Any strange sense or wrong grammar in my answer?

 Thanks for your help.


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## alevtinka

"Он говорит в своей комнате с Иваном Семёновичем. " sounds like "He is talking with Ivan Semenovich in his (his own, not Ivan's) room", but the question you wrote is "I'm talking with IS ....".


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## wonlon

alevtinka said:


> "Он говорит в своей комнате с Иваном Семёновичем. " sounds like "He is talking with Ivan Semenovich in his (his own, not Ivan's) room", but the question you wrote is "I'm talking with IS ....".


Thanks for your reminder. My mind was thinking about too many things at that time.
It should be "He is..."


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## Saluton

Он разговаривает/говорит с Иваном Семёновичем у меня в комнате/в моей комнате.


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## wonlon

just feel so sorry, the question was typed carelessly, it should be *He is talking with Иван Семёнович in his room.*


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## Sobakus

The reference answer is the most natural one. "В своей" hints that there are lots of rooms around here and he's in his own room, for example there's a big house and he has his private study there. While "у себя" just mentions his general location.


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## Maroseika

wonlon said:


> just feel so sorry, the question was typed carelessly, it should be *He is talking with Иван Семёнович in his room.*



In whose room he is talking - his or Ivan's?

Он разговаривает с И.С. в своей комнате (in his room).
Он разговаривает с И.С. в его комнате (in the room of Ivan)


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## wonlon

Maroseika said:


> In whose room he is talking - his or Ivan's?
> 
> Он разговаривает с И.С. в своей комнате (in his room).
> Он разговаривает с И.С. в его комнате (in the room of Ivan)



In his, not Ivan's.

But I doubt if there is ambiguity in Он разговаривает с И.С. в его комнате. It may mean his and Ivan's, if I am right.

And about разговаривает and говорит, are they synonymic, at least here?


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## Orlin

Если подлежащее в 3. лице и хочешь сказать, что что-нибудь принадлежит _подлежащему_, обязательно употребляется возвратное притяжательное местоимение _свой_. Если употреблено _невозвратное_ притяжательное местоимение в 3. лице (его, ее, их), предмет принадлежит лицу, *отличающемуся от подлежащего*.


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## Maroseika

wonlon said:


> In his, not Ivan's.
> 
> But I doubt if there is ambiguity in Он разговаривает с И.С. в его комнате. It may mean his and Ivan's, if I am right.



Yes, there is, and better follow Orlin's recommendation. 



> And about разговаривает and говорит, are they synonymic, at least here?


Yes, there are more or less synonymic in this situation.


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## wonlon

Orlin said:


> Если подлежащее в 3. лице и хочешь сказать, что что-нибудь принадлежит _подлежащему_, обязательно употребляется возвратное притяжательное местоимение _свой_. Если употреблено _невозвратное_ притяжательное местоимение в 3. лице (его, ее, их), предмет принадлежит лицу, *отличающемуся от подлежащего*.


I google translated it:
If the subject of 3. face and want to say that something belongs to the subject, necessarily reflexive possessive pronoun used his. If consumed in transient possessive pronoun 3. face (his, her, them), the object belongs to a person different from the subject.

Roughly got the meaning:

If the subject is in 3rd (3. = 3rd??) person and you want to say that something belongs to the subject, the reflexive possessive pronoun _свой _is used definitely. If a non-reflexive possessive pronoun  (его, ее, их) is used,  the object belongs to a person different from the subject.


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## Maroseika

wonlon said:


> If the subject is in 3rd (3. = 3rd??) person and you want to say that something belongs to the subject, the reflexive possessive pronoun _свой _is used definitely. If a non-reflexive possessive pronoun  (его, ее, их) is used,  the object belongs to a person different from the subject.


Right.


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## wonlon

As I know, 1st and 2nd person are like this, too. i.e. я пригласил свою подругую. Or colloquially мою, but using both means the same.


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## wonlon

Just read from another textbook which I have.

It says that when the subject (whether grammatical or logical)  is 1st and 2nd person, in object (and the like) свой can be used interchangeably with мой, твой, наш and ваш.
If it is 3rd person, the relationship of belonging MUST be denoted by свой.

By the way (somwhat off-topic), this is the textbook I am considering switching to. It is written by a team of 24 professors from Russian departments in China.
The seriousness of compiling makes me feel confident, but the complexity makes me feel like climbing a 8000-metre mountain. Just imagine 150 words or above per lesson, and around 40 lessons.

But Penguin Russian Course is far too simple, it doesn't even mention Иванов in instru. is Иванов*ым*


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## Maroseika

wonlon said:


> It says that when the subject (whether grammatical or logical)  is 1st and 2nd person, in object (and the like) свой can be used interchangeably with мой, твой, наш and ваш.
> If it is 3rd person, the relationship of belonging MUST be denoted by свой.



Looks quite correct.


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## Sobakus

I still wouldn't say that in 1st and 2nd person свой can be used interchangeable with non-reflexive pronouns. The latter sound very clumsy.


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## wonlon

Sobakus said:


> I still wouldn't say that in 1st and 2nd person свой can be used interchangeable with non-reflexive pronouns. The latter sound very clumsy.


the example on the book:  Мы кончили свою/нашу работу.


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## Sobakus

wonlon said:


> Мы кончили нашу работу.


 Clumsy, plus закончили should be used here to avoid sexual connotations. There are plenty of threads on the matter around here. On both matters, actually.


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## wonlon

** If it is 3rd person, the relationship of belonging MUST be denoted by свой.
Examples on book:
Брат отправил *своё *письмо. (the letter belongs to the brother.)
Брат отправил *его *письмо. (the letter belongs not to the brother, but to other(s).)


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## wonlon

But another paragraph adds:
"Anyway, only when the object denoted by the possessive pronoun belongs to the subject (gramm./log.), свой is used."
It seems not "MUST".
It seems the brain of the professor was obsessed by grammatical controversies.


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## Sobakus

Why, these two sentences perfectly agree with each other:

 "If it is 3rd person, the relationship of belonging MUST be denoted by свой."
 "Only when the object denoted by the possessive pronoun belongs to the subject (gramm./log.), свой is used."

The subject is in 3d person and письмо belongs to the subject => свой MUST be used.

If it doesn't belong to the subject, свой is never used. If it isn't 3d person however, I still think свой to be the only correct usage.


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## wonlon

Sobakus said:


> Why, these two sentences perfectly agree with each other:
> 
> "If it is 3rd person, the relationship of belonging MUST be denoted by свой."
> "Only when the object denoted by the possessive pronoun belongs to the subject (gramm./log.), свой is used."


I agree that they do not contradict. I try to digest them once (or twice) more.


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## Orlin

Sobakus said:


> I still wouldn't say that in 1st and 2nd person свой can be used interchangeable with non-reflexive pronouns. The latter sound very clumsy.


Насколько я знаю, эта проблема "общеславянская", и рекомендации в основном одни и то же во всех славянских языках, хотя бы в тех, которыми я владею: В 1-м и 2-лице невозвратное притяжательное местоимение не звучит хорошо, если имеется в виду принадлежность подлежащему, но допускается хотя бы в разговорной речи, так как замена не влияет на смысл (1-е и 2-е лица однозначно определены) - это считается проблемой "для продвинутых"; однако в 3-м лице выбор возвратного или невозвратного местоимения влияет на смысл и поэтому нужно особое внимание, чтобы избежать искажения смысла.


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