# reversing family relationship in addressing children



## bilal_b

Hi,

does anyone have an explanation for the phenomenon of adults calling their children 'mama' or 'baba' or nephews '3ammo' etc.? Typically this would be tagged on to the end of a sentence (question, command), with 'ya ...' where appropriate.
This might be restricted to Levantine or even Palestine for all I know.

Thanks.


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## cherine

We sometimes use it in Egypt too 
I think it maybe has started as "ya Habib mama" -for example- then it evolved to become "ya mama".
Just a wild guess, but I think it can be plausible.

And welcome to the forum


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## zooz

Yes, it's very common to say them notabely in The Levant. Kind of odd, but nice, IMO. Even using them with '*يا*' is not necessary.E.g. *بابا روح العب مع اخواتك. *Moreover, it's customary in the society that the youngers call the olders '*عمو*' for men and '*خالي*' for women, and vice versa.

Cherine's statement is likely; the other words were crossed out to simplify the call.


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## misa

most of the arabs in north africa and in the middle east call their children " baba, بابا" or " mama, ماما". children call older people " 3ammo, 3ammi, عمي" for men and "khalty, خالتي " as a kind of respect.


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## MarcB

I found this on the Sudanese lessons site, to adddress different people
http://aramati.com/sudanesearabic/lesson3.htm


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## bilal_b

Thanks for confirming the reverse call is used throughout the Arabic speaking region. I agree Cherine's explanation is plausible as a first guess (thanks!) but would still be interested to hear about any hard research on this, whether it happens in any other language etc.

The matter of youngsters calling unrelated adults 'uncle' etc. is not relevant here, I think. It's not a _reversal_ of the kind we started talking about and in any case this practice is pretty much universal, certainly in all the languages I've ever come across. In German there's even a word for someone you address that way: 'Nennonkel' (roughly 'titular uncle').
Or do you mean that these non-familymembers call _the children_ 'uncle'?

Any other thoughts strictly on the reversed call? Are there 'rules' for its usage? Thanks for pointing out it works without 'ya ...'.


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## cherine

The use of "ya" is only a mark of "calling" someone, but we can also call someone without the "ya" (both in MSA and colloquials).
As for the reverse, I'll speak of what's used in my country, Egypt. We call a boy "baba" (father) and a girl "mama" (mother). We don't call them "3ammo".

But what I know about Levantine usage is that the "mother" call her kids (be they girls or boys) "mama" and the "father" calls them "baba".  I guess this is where my guess in the second post applies 
As for the usage in Egypt, I don't have an explanation for it. Frankly, I don't think this is something that has been subject of a study.


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## lama

my mum is psychiatrist and she said that adults call their little children mama,or baba when they are very young unconsiosly just to let them know that that's mum and that's dad so that the child can say it himself when he gets a bit older but after that it just becomes a habit .even my mum always sais :ya mama for me


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## bilal_b

Interesting. But then why is this specific to Arabic?


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## cherine

Interesting question.
But as we're not really sure it's specific to Arabic, maybe you could open a new thread, in the Other Languages forum, to ask about that.
What do you think ?


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## bilal_b

Not sure that's necessary. The point is not whether Arabic really is the _only_ language where this is done, but if the reason was something fundamental about the psychology of parents then it should be the same in _most_ languages. But we know that's not the case, given that between us we can't think of another example. 

Anyway, I'm already very happy with the information I got from you about the different usage in Egypt and the Levant, so I think the thread has run its course...


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## cherine

Sorry to continue with the thread after it has run its course  but I thought it could be necessary to point out that this thing is not necessarily phsycological, nor is it really a "reversing" of family relationship.
I consider it more of an evolution of a word to acquire more connotation.
It's a bit like the word Habibi حبيبي (which literaly means my love (to a male) ) this word evolved to become synonym of "my dear", and is used to female loves ones/friends as well.

The word "mama" has the connotation of "dear", we sometimes use it between friends. Same things with "baba". I sometimes call my friends and my brothers "ya baba", which is in no way a reversing of anything. It's just this normal evolution of words in colloquials, when words gain new meanings and new usages


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## Lugubert

cherine said:


> As for the usage in Egypt, I don't have an explanation for it. Frankly, I don't think this is something that has been subject of a study.


It has, but I can't for my life remember where I read it. It might have been explained as a way of fooling the evil eye, parallel to when in some cultures children are named 'the ugly one', 'stupid' etc., so as to make them unappetizing to demons.


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## Abu Bishr

I can come up with three reasons for this phenomenon, all of which are speculation of course. The first is a stylistic phenomenon in Arabic called من باب ما سيكون (referring to someone or something by that which he / she will one day become). The second reason is to instil courage in the child by addressing him / her in adult terms. The third is that maybe parents like to see themselves or their spouses in their kids so much so that in certain cultures parents even call their kids by their parental titles. Somewhere I heard that in certain Arab cultures as a rule boys resemble their fathers and girls their their mothers.

Nevertheless, I think it is a very interesting phenomenon.


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## suma

Good job Abu Bishr
Your explanation is by far the best! and I totally agree with the three main reasons you list.

And I also suspect that it's not unique to Arabic either. In fact my mother used to call my sister mommy, especially during the early years of her childhood.


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## the-quality-man-4

just to spoiling them .I think


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## Mahaodeh

I just wanted to add that this is also very common in Iraq, it's even common for total strangers to do that; as an example, a young person goes into a shop where an elderly shopkeeper is and the shop keeper would say: na3am 3amoo, shitreed.

By the way, I don't think it has anything to do with من باب ما سيكون because I would call both my necies and nephews خالتو, my dad calls me and my brother بابا and my mum calls the both of us ماما - everyone calls the child/youngster with what the child/youngster is supposed to call him/her.


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## rosieg

Yes in the Levant an older man may call his grandson or granddaughter "granddad". So the titles are gender specific only to the speaker not to the addressee. 
Apparently some Hispanic cultures do this too, at least in terms of calling one's children by one's own title.
I am interested in any other thoughts on this fascinating habit.


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## Jasmine_Chila

In Egypt I've heard people calling anyone 'mama and baba'.

Examples: A university student shooing an annoying little girl away on the street 'go away ya mama'.

Elderly landlady to her 20-something male tenant 'baba'.

Husband telling his wife to be quiet while arguing in public 'shhh ya mama!'

Is this normal? This isn't for anyone's kids but definitely heard all 3.


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## rosieg

That seems to be quite a different phenomenon, Jasmine. It's not a reversal since the title used is the role of neither the speaker or the addressee. And it seems that what you speak of is gender-specific to the addressee, ie, they all call males 'baba', but females 'mama'. Interesting addition though. It links to what Cherine was saying above, also based on experience in Egypt, that these words seem to have evolved away from meaning 'mother' and 'father' and become simply a title for anyone. This is much broader than English speakers or Arabic speakers calling unrelated older ones Aunt or Uncle out of respect.

Neither situation is the same as the one first raised, where a mother in the Levant may call her son and daughter both Mama and it is specific to her relationship with them, she doesn't use it for others, as has been said above.


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## gusfand

laydiC said:


> ..'mami/ mamita' or 'papi/ papito'.. In some countries in  Latinamerica, I think mostly Dominican Republic, Cuba, Puerto Rico and a  few others maybe, these terms are used as nicknames for loved ones...to  a young child in Puerto Rico we may say mamita or papito, and to your  boyfriend..


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## WadiH

I think people do this because they are mimicking what their children call them.

For example, your daughter calls you "baba" so you start calling her "baba" as a form of affection (the mother would say "mama" even to her son).  That's what I noticed from observing a Palestinian acquaintance of mine.

In my dialect, though, the son is called "baba" or "ubooy" or "yuba" and the daughter "mama" or "ummi" or "yumma."  I think the rationale here is that, in our culture, love of parents is the supreme form of love, so you are basically saying that your daughter is equal to your mother in how much you love her.  Even in Classical Arabic you express your devotion to someone by saying بأبي أنت وأمي ("I'd sacrifice my mother and father for you").


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## djara

A similar, through admittedly different, phenomenon in French. Some men calling their wives "maman" (mother); maybe mimicking their children.


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## L.2

Jasmine_Chila said:


> In Egypt I've heard people calling anyone 'mama and baba'.
> 
> Examples: A university student shooing an annoying little girl away on the street 'go away ya mama'.
> 
> Elderly landlady to her 20-something male tenant 'baba'.
> 
> Husband telling his wife to be quiet while arguing in public 'shhh ya mama!'
> 
> Is this normal? This isn't for anyone's kids but definitely heard all 3.


 
We do that to in hijazi, anyone is أمي or أبويا. They lost their literal meaning and are used for simply calling anyone. In fights, as your first example, they are said in a mockingly tone along with حبيبي/حبيبتي.


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## rosieg

Interesting contributions. Thanks.


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## jess1972

hi all
i really have no idea why they do this. i dont think its anything to do with making the child feel secure or anything.
im an aussie married into a palestinian family. the mother and father both call the kids/grandkids their title. i.e. mother calls the daughter mamma(mother), the dad calls the daughter babba(father), the grandmother calls the grandchild tatta(grandmother), the grandfather calls the grandchild jido(grandfather). I find it totally weird and when asked they cant explain why they do it. Infact they seemed quite astonished that i asked.
i dont know of any other culture that does this.
perhaps it was something started a long time ago, and with most things, some people wont let go of something, even if its weird. would still like to know why they do it, but even when the people doing it cant explain, then who would know


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## hiba

Two male Iraqi friends of mine sometimes refer to me as baba, and we're the same age. Now that I think of it, it's always been when they were explaining something to me that I 'should have known already'.


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## إسكندراني

In brief there seem to be two phenomena:
i/ Sarcastic; used in arguments similar to '7abibi' / 'ro7i'
ii/Affectionate
reversal where male/female kids are addressed by their parents as mama/baba. 
(in Egypt; other cultures such as the Levant and the Peninsula seem to extend this to anyone and to grandparents with their titles too) 
I make sense of this as follows: your child calls you by a name and you're so happy you call them back by '7abib baba' then 'baba' - I recall this happening to me and my siblings with our father.
But strangely enough I never heard anyone call my sister 'mama' and only our father would call me and my brother 'baba'..


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## rajulbat

In this thread we learned that, at least in Syria, a mother can call her son "ummy" (mom) even though she means "son." My Skype friend told me the same things apply to dads. A dad might say,
شو يابا بدك مساعده ؟
Yaba hear meaning father but referring to the son. 

My questions:
Is this unique to Syria, or common in other Levant (Palestine, Jordan, Lebanon) dialects as well?
Does this happen in non-Levantine dialects (e.g., Egyptian, Gulf, Maghrebi)?

Thanks.


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## barkoosh

It's very common in Lebanon. And it's not limited to mothers and fathers. When talking to my sister's son, I say to him: يا خالو (never يا ابن أختي). My mother's sister says to me: كيفك يا خالتو؟ (never يا ابن أختي). My grandmother used to keep saying: يا ستّي كول بعد, that is, have some more [food] (never يا حفيدي or يا ابن بنتي).

You can see that it's limited to the instances of calling (...يا).


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## tounsi51

In Golfe countries or Kuwait at least as far as I know, they also call yoba يوبا or yoma يوما especially parents to their children at any ages.


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## Peacechild

bilal_b said:


> The point is not whether Arabic really is the _only_ language where this is done, but if the reason was something fundamental about the psychology of parents then it should be the same in _most_ languages. But we know that's not the case, given that between us we can't think of another example.


Nope, not only Arabic. Turks do that too. But mu guess is that it migrated feom Arabic


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## dakaplo

مرحبا،

I know that it is common in Levantine Arabic for a father to address his child (son or daughter) as يا بابا or يابا and for a mother to address her child (son or daughter) as يا ماما or ياما. But what about addressing multiple children as a group? I get thousands of Google hits for "تعال يا ماما" and "تعالي يا ماما" but only a couple for "تعالوا يا ماما" so I'm guessing that's not the answer.

شكرا لكم


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## momai

تعالوا يا ماما is correct.


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## Zareza

cherine said:


> the "mother" call her kids (be they girls or boys) "mama" and the "father" calls them "baba"


In Romanian sometimes the mother calls her son or her daughter: *mamă, mami = mother, mummy* and the father calls his son or his daughter: *tată, tati = father, daddy *. I think it is a short form from *mummy's son/daughter *and *daddy's son/daughter*


djara said:


> Some men calling their wives "maman" (mother)


My mother calls my father *tată *(father) and my father calls my mother *mamă *(mother). This because is a short form from: *my children's father *and *my children's mother* .


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## ssbws

Dear friends,
In Syrian and Levantine Colloquial Arabic when an adult family member is addressing a child or a teenager they tend to call them by their name adding the title they themselves bear in the family, like: Nara will be addressed as Mama Nara if called by her Mum, Baba Nara if called by her Dad, The same pattern seems to be also applied by grandparents and devoted uncles and aunts. 

To put it in a nutshell, my question is there any meaning or purpose of this unusual way of address?


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## analeeh

There have been many threads on this before which you'll find if you search the forum, but in short, the name itself (نارة) isn't necessary. Older relatives address their younger relatives using the same title that those relatives use for them - maama, baaba, 3ammo, khaale etc. There's no particular meaning or purpose to it any more than there is to calling them by pet names in English or whatever is normally used to refer to younger relatives in Russian - it's just one common way of addressing children.


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## ssbws

Great. Many thanks. It was very interesting to read.


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## gbasfora

In Brazil we say painho and mainha to the children:

Painho (Diminutive of papai - بابا )
Mainha (Diminutive of mamãe - ماما )


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## Derakhshan

It is not limited to Arabic; see this map:






Source: 




__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/chupok


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## Ghabi

Thanks @Derakhshan !   Can you also provide the source? Thanks again!


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## Derakhshan

I added the source.


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## ssbws

Many thanks Derakhshan. A wonderful   Illustration of this linguistic event. I thought it was unique and restricted to Syria and Lebanon. The map is a real discovery.


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## cherine

I don't see the source  and I dare say the map or the data in the map is not very accurate in what concerns Egypt. Here, a mother wouldn't call her son يا ماما , though she can call him يا بابا. The same for a father, he wouldn't call his daughter يا بابا but ya mama.
I mean, the difference between Egyptian usage and Levantine usage is the Egyptians use the gender of the addressed, and it's only بابا - ماما. I personally have never heard an uncle or an aunt address their niece or nephew عمو، خالو، عمتو، خالتو. While in Levantine Arabic, adults address the young ones in reference to themselves (for example: an uncle calling his niece يا عمو).


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## Derakhshan

cherine said:


> I don't see the source


I edited my first post. The source is a reddit user's own original research, so it might not be fully accurate.



cherine said:


> and I dare say the map or the data in the map is not very accurate in what concerns Egypt. Here, a mother wouldn't call her son يا ماما , though she can call him يا بابا. The same for a father, he wouldn't call his daughter يا بابا but ya mama.
> I mean, the difference between Egyptian usage and Levantine usage is the Egyptians use the gender of the addressed, and it's only بابا - ماما. I personally have never heard an uncle or an aunt address their niece or nephew عمو، خالو، عمتو، خالتو. While in Levantine Arabic, adults address the young ones in reference to themselves (for example: an uncle calling his niece يا عمو).


That's interesting. Khaleeji mirrors the Levantine usage. I didn't know Egyptians were any different.


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## Hemza

cherine said:


> Here, a mother wouldn't call her son يا ماما , though she can call him يا بابا. The same for a father, he wouldn't call his daughter يا بابا but ya mama.
> I mean, the difference between Egyptian usage and Levantine usage is the Egyptians use the gender of the addressed, and it's only بابا - ماما. I personally have never heard an uncle or an aunt address their niece or nephew عمو، خالو، عمتو، خالتو. While in Levantine Arabic, adults address the young ones in reference to themselves (for example: an uncle calling his niece يا عمو).


In Morocco it is similar to Egypt (I'm tempted to say Maghreb but I wait for my Tunisian fellows of the forum confirming it).

Edit: now I think about it, I remember that when I call my mum, she used to reply me "نعم يا ماما؟" so actually it is not like Egypt


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## WadiH

Derakhshan said:


> That's interesting. Khaleeji mirrors the Levantine usage. I didn't know Egyptians were any different.



In our circles it's the same as what Cherine has described.


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## Derakhshan

It must be different in Najd, then. It's interesting, and almost shocking to me, I always thought all Arabs did it that way (mother calls all children mama, father calls all children baba, etc). I'm pretty sure it's the same way for Iraqis as well.


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## Mahaodeh

Yes, it’s the same for Iraqis too.


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