# Are Welsh's days numbered?



## James Bates

I've been reading up on Welsh and it seems to me that as a spoken language Welsh is moribund. Now before the Welsh nationalists start adducing facts and figures, let me explain why I say what I say. I have been living in Pakistan since the age of eleven. Before that I used to live in America, but had a passive knowledge of Urdu as my parents usually spoke it to each other. 
Nonetheless, English became my primary language, probably because I acquired my primary educaton in America rather than Pakistan. The fact that I now have a perfect command of the Urdu language does not and cannot change the fact that English is my first or default language, which means unless I married a person whose first language was Urdu my children would certainly have English as their first language. Now if Pakistan were populated by people like me, the Urdu language could be considered dead, for it would have no real speakers. Urdu would continue to be taught across the country, but that would not count for anything, for Urdu would have gone the way of Latin, i.e. it would have ceased to be a spoken or living language. The term "spoken language" is to be interpreted as "a language spoken as the first (or default) language".

Given the fact Welsh not only has very few speakers (i.e. people whose first language is Welsh), but also that only a fifth of the population has any knowledge of the language at all, it seems clear Welsh's days are numbered. Would somebody from Wales care to comment on my assessment?


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## cymro

Hi James
Maybe in many generations English will be the universal language, in Wales, Pakistan and everywhere else. I read your post with interest as your command of Urdu and English seems to mirror my use of Welsh and English,the common factor being English. However in view of the Welsh educational system I doubt that welsh will be moribund for many generations yet, as I believe the same will apply for Pakistan.
There are many similarities when you hear Bangla (mixed with english) being spoken in a local Indian restaurant. (even more strange when it is Bangla mixed with Welsh and English!!)


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## James Bates

*[off topic question snipped
Frank, moderator]*



cymro said:


> However in view of the welsh educational system I doubt that welsh will be moribund for many generations yet



Why? Is the Welsh educational system producing people whose first language is Welsh?


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## Suehil

Fifty (or so) years ago, when I was at primary school in a rural area of North Wales, I was the only child in the school whose native language was English; all the others were struggling not only with school work, but with the language as well.  The grandparents of my childhood friends spoke little or, in some cases, no English at all. 

This is changing, not least under the influence of education and television, but I still know people who have difficulty expressing themselves in English.  

Welsh's days may be numbered, but I don't think it will die out any time soon.


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## cymro

James Bates said:


> Thanks for the reply, cymro. How do you pronounce your name?
> 
> 
> 
> Why? Is the Welsh educational system producing people whose first language is Welsh?


 Hi James Bates,*
[off topic answer snipped
Frank, moderator]*

I wouldn't say producing first language Welsh speakers,but truly bilingual Welsh/English speakers:yes. Bilingual to me means being equally comfortable in either language. From my own experience I was brought up in an English speaking home; my mother being English, my first language was English. My primary education began in a school (in 1961) totally through the medium of Welsh. I can't remember not being able to speak the language, or the actual process of learning it. This took place only 15 miles from the centre of Liverpool (as the bird flies) and when people from my area speak English it is with more of a Liverpudlian accent than with a Welsh accent. During the 1960's there was a choice of education either in Welsh or English. In a great many areas of North Wales that choice has now been removed, with education at primary level in state funded schools only being available in Welsh. My 2 eldest children have been through this system, and my youngest has just entered into it. It is amazing to observe another language being absorbed so quickly without any actual formal learning. I have also observed that learning an additional language at this age does not detract from one's ability or level of fluency in the other language. Children seem to attain the same level of fluency and articulation in both languages.I think that exposure to 3 or perhaps even more languages at this age would prduce multiliterate children; but that is perhaps a topic for a pshycology forum! Being reasonably fluent in Spanish I have tried to introduce this to my youngest child. However I think one has to be exposed completely to the environment of a language for this type of assimilation to take place.
Of the British Celtic languages welsh is the most widely spoken and the stongest survivor. This in itself is something of a miracle, considering the geography of the British Isles.With its close proximity to England it is a miracle the language has survived at all during the last 2000 years-so perhaps it has acouple more generations left in it yet!

I do have one question of other bilingual members of the forum.I have friends /clients /acquaintances with whom I would normally speak in Welsh and some with whom I would normally speak in English, although all are fluent in both languages. If we use the language we don't normally communicate in we feel embarrased and awkward,even though we understand each other completely. Is this the case in other bilingual cultures?


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## James Bates

I see. Thanks for your informative post. I guess Welsh won't die out so long as there are people who use it spontaneously and on a day-to-day basis AND make sure their children do the same.
*
[snipped: the topic is Welsh
Frank, moderator]*


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## sokol

James Bates said:


> I see. Thanks for your informative post. I guess Welsh won't die out so long as there are people who use it spontaneously and on a day-to-day basis AND *make sure their children do the same*.


The bold part in my experience is the most important thing here.

Sociolinguists continually discover that minority languages - that is, Welsh here (even though it once was the native language of the majority) - are in danger of dying out as soon as parents begin to use the majority language - so English here - only when talking to their kids.

Note, even if parents (= "generation A") still use Welsh among adults but only speak English to their children that's already the first stage of language shift.

A second stage could be that those children ("generation B") still learn Welsh as a second language later (in school for example) and even use it as adults, but that they aren't very proficient in it any more.

The third and final stage could be that _their _children (= "generation C", the kids of "generation B") only grow up with English and don't even learn Welsh at a later stage because there aren't many people around who still are proficient in Welsh - as their parents ("generation B") already wouldn't be fully proficient anymore.

But from what is written above Welsh still has a long way to go - or it might even happen that fortune turns around; because it is not at all impossible to reverse language shift: it is certainly difficult, but it is achievable, in case the community concerned wants to achieve this.


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## iar

I would just like to add the experience of a Cardiff-ian to the mix. I am 21, from and English-speaking (though nationally, Welsh) home. I was however, educated through the medium of Welsh from the age of 3. I speak Welsh on a daily basis at University (Cardiff) and work. I also frequently use it when socialising with other welsh-speakers. Almost everybody at my place of work speaks welsh as do many of our customers.

All my schoolfriends still use Welsh regularly and I know a large number of children and young adults, both native to Cardiff and from outside who use the language.

Also, the welsh-medium education system is growing so quickly. Here in Cardiff a number of English-medium high schools will be closing very soon because there aren't enough children to fill them. They are being replaced by new Welsh-medium high schools. This is amazing because when I started secondary school, mine was the only Welsh-medium high school in the capital. There will soon be three.

Cardiff is traditionally one of the weakest areas for the language so I hope that my above comments can help you see that the language is far from dead. It has a long way to go and it will always live alongside English, but walking around the capital city you will be sure to hear it in coversation and see it on signs everywhere.


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## MarcB

I have been told that Argentinians of Welsh decent still speak fluent Welsh in some parts of Argentina.Can anyone elaborate?


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## Suehil

Patagonia, to be exact.  I once met a native of Patagonia who could speak Welsh (first language) and Spanish, but no English.  He was working with a Welsh-language theatre company in Wales.


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## iar

Yeah that is very true. Quite a few come over every summer and I serve them in my shop. Their accents are bizzare, but its so cool! I remember having a group of Patagonians visit our primary school years ago. We ended up doing a project on the area. Also, a girl joined my highschool in Yr 9 from Patagonia. Again, her Spanish and Welsh were fluent but she could speak no English. The headteacher had to tutor her for her GCSE's. Now she's fluent in all three.

I have a Breton colleague who speaks French, English, Breton and Welsh. These days he predominently speaks Welsh, and he has a young Welsh-speaking family. I believe you are able to learn Welsh in the University of Nantes.


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## sokol

iar said:


> I would just like to add the experience of a Cardiff-ian to the mix. I am 21, from and English-speaking (though nationally, Welsh) home. I was however, educated through the medium of Welsh from the age of 3. I speak Welsh on a daily basis at University (Cardiff) and work. I also frequently use it when socialising with other welsh-speakers. Almost everybody at my place of work speaks welsh as do many of our customers.


Thanks for your contribution!

It clearly indicates a quite strong status of Welsh in Cardiff which really would mean something - as you say for yourself Welsh should (most likely) be even more present in many rural areas of Wales.

In an environment like that, where Welsh is used broadly in everyday communication, I do not see any danger of Welsh becoming extinct: that is, as long as a minority language (Welsh) is able to even expand to native speakers of the majority language (English = your native language).

Of course I do not know the situation of Welsh from my own experience, but from what you've written it seems pretty obvious that at least for now Welsh seems not to be endangered.


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## toc

sokol said:


> It clearly indicates a quite strong status of Welsh in Cardiff which really would mean something - as you say for yourself Welsh should (most likely) be even more present in many rural areas of Wales.


I'm not Welsh but go to South Wales quite a bit, and to be honest, with a few rare exceptions, I never hear anyone speak Welsh in Cardiff. I'm pretty sure if you walked into the average high street shop in Cardiff and started speaking in Welsh to the first shop assistant you saw, they wouldn't understand you. The only part of Wales I've been where you can hear the language spoken by local people in the street, pubs, shops, etc, is in the north west part of the country.


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## Grekh

Well, from my experience, I once went to Caerdydd and to Caerphily and spoke to some of the natives there and they told me they didn't know the language in the sense that they didn't know to speak it. They barely knew some words. I don't know if it's a general rule, but seems that every person I talked to didn't know how to speak Welsh.


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## sokol

toc said:


> I'm pretty sure if you walked into the average high street shop in Cardiff and started speaking in Welsh to the first shop assistant you saw, they wouldn't understand you.


Well then, that would be counter-evidence to the post above, but as I can't decide this myself I'll have to leave it at that. Probably iar could elaborate?

The thing is that iar is talking about the educational system and university, further a Welsh workplace and the Welsh community.
It is of course clear that Welsh speakers wouldn't address an Englishman in Welsh, but your post stating that in Cardiff streetlife you hardly hear someone speaking Welsh at least to me seems to be in conflict with iar's post. It may be though that you are both right and accurate: it is thinkable that Welsh might not be used much in the streets and shops, in the town of Cardiff.


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## toc

I don't want to contradict Iar seeing as he is Welsh and lives in Wales, but I can assure you 100% that most people in urban South Wales don't speak Welsh. I think you'll find that the people from Cardiff who are able to speak the language are warn:generalisation alert) mainly from middle-class backgrounds and have attended certain schools where it is taught. Whereas the average working-class Cardiffian (like the friends I have there, who are slightly older than Iar) don't speak Welsh. In north west Wales on the other hand, the average person speaks Welsh as his/her first language.


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## cymro

Hi Toc 
I agree with both yourself and Iar. You don't want to contradict him and you are not contradicting him. I would totally agree with you. The older, average Cardiffian has very little knowlledge of the language. However, in accordance with the points I raised earlier in the thread I think things are changing. I would also venture to say that if you asked your welsh friends if they would  like to have been fluent in welsh ,the answer would have been a resounding yes. (Especially on rugby international days!!!)


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## MarX

It's quite interesting to see that the younger generations seem to be more proficient. Perhaps it's comparable to Catalan? In spite of castellanització, the language is pretty much alive and the younger generations are sometimes even more proficient when it comes to writing and reading.


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## elirlandes

cymro said:


> I do have one question of other bilingual members of the forum.I have friends /clients /acquaintances with whom I would normally speak in Welsh and some with whom I would normally speak in English, although all are fluent in both languages. If we use the language we don't normally communicate in we feel embarrased and awkward,even though we understand each other completely. Is this the case in other bilingual cultures?



Hi Cymro -
I am an English speaking Irish person with effectively native level Spanish & French. Although I did high school in Ireland in English, I did university in France through French and am married to a Spaniard [Spanish is the medium of communication in our house]. 

I notice that my personality (and the personalities of my bi-lingual/polylingual friends) is slightly different in each language, and that as a result we always end up reverting back to the language that we originally made friends in.

For example, an old French friend who was my room-mate in university, subsequently lived in Dublin and reached perfection in English (not just language, but slang, accent and knowledge of local culture). We can converse perfectly well in English (and sometimes have to because non-French speakers may be around) but as soon as we are on our own we revert to French - not because my French is better than his English, but because it is where our friendship resides, and it is how we know each other.

Similarly, although we now live in Ireland and my wife speaks fairly good english (albeit with a Spanish accent and some flawed grammar) it is just plain weird to speak in English. When in conversation with others in public we will of course speak English, but anything directed to each other specifically will always be in Spanish. A conversation between us in English would be like talking to somebody we only know half as well, for both of us.


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## toc

I was reading about this topic on a different forum and a BBC article (news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/4390598.stm) was mentioned, which begins:

_*Welsh-speaking areas 'in danger'*

Language campaigners have claimed that "natural Welsh-speaking communities" could disappear within 15 years.
Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg - the Welsh Language Society - argued that rising house prices were destroying the communities, along with the language.
Leader Huw Lewis told a Caernarfon rally that, under present trends, no such communities would be left by 2020._

A forum member commented:

_All the Celtic languages are "thriving" in the sense of some young urban hip people considering them "cool" and studying them to get a nice job in the media. All the Celtic languages are still dying as traditional community languages, in the sense of normal people using them in everyday life and speaking them naturally and confidently to their children and grandchildren - people who have themselves learned the language from their own parents and grandparents, not as 20-somethings during their cool media studies.
_
Which is kind of what I was referring to above about people who are able to speak Welsh in places like Cardiff and other urban areas being young people from middle-class backgrounds, and not really "natural" speakers of the language.


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## nbv

Given that money is now being invested by the government into the ressurection of Kernowek (the Cornish language), I doubt very much that Welsh will be left to extinction. I live with 2 fluent Welsh speakers both of whom wouldn't hesitate to bring up their families as Welsh speakers, there is a lot of pride in the language from speakers and non-speakers alike.


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