# Etymology : Typhoon



## yields

Quite the peculiar word given the following Wiktionary definition, it is reaaally making me curious. A rare word if it stays unchanged from China to the mediterranean area.

_Etymology__Probably ultimately of Sinitic origin, Mandarin 大风 (dàfēng, “big wind”), Cantonese 大風 (daai6 fung1, “big wind”), via Arabic طوفان (ṭūfān), Hindi तूफ़ान (tūfān), and Persian توفان (tufân). Given the location of typhoons as a Pacific Ocean phenomena, it is more likely it began east and moved west. Ancient Greek Τυφῶν (Tuphōn, “Typhon, father of the winds”) is unrelated but has secondarily contaminated the word_.


Any thoughts on this word ? Coming from an arabic backgroud, I see than the verb related to _ṭūfān_ is _ṭaafa - ya__ṭuufu. _"طاف- يطوف" which means to circumgyrate, basically like the shape of typhoons.


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## origumi

typhoon 

Tiphon "violent storm, whirlwind, tornado," 1550s, from Gk. typhon "whirlwind," personified as a giant, father of the winds, perhaps from typhein "to smoke" (cf. typhus).  The meaning "cyclone, violent hurricane of India or the China Seas"  (1580s) is first recorded in T. Hickock's translation of an account in  Italian of a voyage to the East Indies by Caesar Frederick, a merchant  of Venice:
.concerning which Touffon ye are to vnderstand, that in the East Indies  often times, there are not stormes as in other countreys; but euery 10.  or 12. yeeres there are such tempests and stormes, that it is a thing  incredible, but to those that haue seene it, neither do they know  certainly what yeere they wil come. ["The voyage and trauell of M.  Caesar Fredericke, Marchant of Venice, into the East India, and beyond  the Indies"]​ 
This sense of the word, in reference to titanic storms in the East  Indies, first appears in Europe in Portuguese in the mid-16th century.  It apparently is from tufan, a word in  Arabic, Persian, and Hindi meaning "big cyclonic storm." Yule  ["Hobson-Jobson," London, 1903] writes that "the probability is that  Vasco [da Gama] and his followers got the tufao ... direct from the Arab pilots." The Arabic word sometimes is said to be from Gk. typhon, but other sources consider it purely Semitic, though the Greek word might have influenced the form of the word in English.  Al-tufan occurs several times in the Koran for "a flood or storm" and also for Noah's Flood. Chinese (Cantonese) tai fung  "a great wind" also might have influenced the form or sense of the word  in English, and that term and the Indian one may have had some mutual  influence; toofan still means "big storm" in India.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=typhoon

Note that the comments about Arabic *tufan *misses an important issue: *tufan* is already evident in 1st century BC Aramaic, the Onkelos translation for Noah's *flood* in the Pentateuch.


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## Ghabi

Hi! I think its entry in _Hobson-Jobson_ is quite detailed, which, among other things, points out that:

-"But again, the sense of whirlwind is not recognised in classical Arabic. Even Dozy in his dictionary of later Arabic only cites a modern French-Arabic dictionary (Boethor's) for the sense, _Tourbillon, trombe_."

-"Sometimes claimed as a Chinese word meaning 'a great wind' . . . but this seems to be a late mystification. In old authors the forms are _tuffon, tuffoon, tiphon_, &c."

And it can be added that in Hokkien the word for typhoon is 風颱 _hong thai_, and that in old-fashioned Cantonese it's 風舊 _fung kau_, in both of which the morpheme for "wind" 風 is placed at the beginning (I don't know what _thai_ and _kau_ are supposed to mean).


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## Perseas

The English_ typhoon_ seems identical to the Greek _τυφών, _say transliterated from Greek into English. That said, the Easterner and Arabic versions may indeed be unrelated to the Greek word.


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## fdb

Arabic ṭūfān “flood” occurs already in the Qurʾān and it seems very unlikely that it could have been borrowed from Chinese at such an early date. The, in Arabic, unusual pattern fūʻāl suggests that it is a loanword from Aramaic ṭāwpānā (thus vocalised in Syriac), “flood”, specifically “Noah’s flood”, from the Aramaic verb ṭāf ”to swim, to be inundated” etc. Later, the Arabic word took on the meaning “typhoon” in the context of Indian Ocean seafaring. The Chinese connection seems all in all very dubious.

The cited Persian and Hindi forms are borrowed from Arabic, not its source. And the date of the Targum ascribed to Onqelos is hotly debated.


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## yields

Thanks for the links and info everyone, I thought the chinese link is quite far-fetched too... 
Another interesting thing, I heard that a sort of flood is also mentioned in the babylonian version of *Gilgamesh*, does anyone know what word was used there ? Should be nice if it does indeed cognate with the aramaic and arabic.


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## origumi

Akkadian _abūbu_. See for example Gilgamesh Tablet 11: http://www.soas.ac.uk/baplar/record...ablet-xi-lines-1-163-read-by-karl-hecker.html


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## yields

I see, a bit far from it from what I see hahaha. (by the way any useful aramaic dictionary where I could check the taf and tawpana?)


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## origumi

I hold this dictionary (but it requires ability to read Hebrew/Aramaic alphabet): http://archive.org/details/DictionaryOfTargumsTalmudsAndMidrashlit.index.aramhebJastrow.1903.2vols. It's for Jewish Aramaic, yet for 1000 years it's the same language that was spoken everywhere in the neighborhood.

A suggestion that _tofan_ is related to root t-f (Hebrew צ-ו-פ) = _to float_, to _flood_ was mentioned earlier. Jastrow in his dictionary mentions relation to root t-b-` (where ` = ayin, Hebrew ט-ב-ע) = _to drown_,_ to sink_.


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## fdb

Jastrow’s dictionary is old and completely out of date. And of course ṭ-w-p has nothing to do with ṭ-b-ʻ. If you have access to scholarly libraries you could consult Brockelmann/Sokoloff “Syriac lexicon”, Sokoloff “Dictionary of Jewish Babylonian Aramaic”, Driver/Macuch “Mandaic dictionary”, etc.


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## origumi

fdb said:


> And of course ṭ-w-p has nothing to do with ṭ-b-ʻ.


"Of course" is meaningless and non constructive unless backed up by established facts and references. And there was no claim that t--p and t-b-` have anything to do with each other.


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## fdb

origumi said:


> And there was no claim that t--p and t-b-` have anything to do with each other.



You yourself attributed this claim to Jastrow in #9.


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## OneStroke

According to Wikipedia, a Qing record seems to show that Chinese 颱風/台风 referred to Taiwanese winds. I looked up the traditional character 颱 and simplified/Japanese character 台 (which also means Taiwan in both traditional and simplified Chinese) in an online Middle Chinese pronouncing dictionary (http://www.eastling.org/tdfweb/midage.aspx/midage.aspx) and it seems that the pronunciations were not even close to the 'ty' in 'typhoon' in Middle Chinese. Therefore, if it really were from Chinese, it must have been borrowed to other languages after the Tang Dynasty.

It seems to be a good time to be talking about typhoons since a serious one just struck.


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## Forero

OneStroke said:


> According to Wikipedia, a Qing record seems to show that Chinese 颱風/台风 referred to Taiwanese winds. I looked up the traditional character 颱 and simplified/Japanese character 台 (which also means Taiwan in both traditional and simplified Chinese) in an online Middle Chinese pronouncing dictionary (http://www.eastling.org/tdfweb/midage.aspx/midage.aspx) and it seems that the pronunciations were not even close to the 'ty' in 'typhoon' in Middle Chinese. Therefore, if it really were from Chinese, it must have been borrowed to other languages after the Tang Dynasty.
> 
> It seems to be a good time to be talking about typhoons since a serious one just struck.


This has always been my understanding. We don't use _typhoon_ for Atlantic hurricanes, for storms in the Indian Ocean, or even for hurricanes in the eastern Pacific, only for those in the western Pacific. _Phoon_ is _fong_, "wind", but _ty_ is _T'ai_, "Taiwan", as in the words _Taiwan_ and _Taipei_.


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## Ghabi

Hi! The name "Taiwan" didn't become established until the 17th century, while the form _tufão_/_touffon_ goes back to the 16th (according to the citations in the _Hobson-Jobson_ entry as quoted above). Moreover, as mentioned above, in Hokkien typhoon is known as "Wind [_hong_] Something [_thai_]", not "Something Wind".


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## OneStroke

I've looked up 大 and 風 in the Middle Chinese dictionary. 大 actually makes sense, but not 風. Since the Quran already had the word, I think it's possible to conclude that typhoon can't be from Chinese.


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## Ghabi

The simple fact is that the Chinese who live on the coast, and have suffered this tropical cyclone for ages, have very specific names for, and knowledge of, it. They don't just call it "Big Wind", and know quite a lot about its nature, besides its bigness. In a 17th-century work about the Canton Province a whole passage is devoted to it: 

南海歲有舊風，亦曰風舊，蓋颶風也。其起也，自東北者必自北而西，自西北者必自北而東，而俱至南乃息，謂之落西，亦曰蕩西，又曰迴南，凡二晝夜乃息，亦曰風癡。若不落西，不迴南，則逾月復作，作必對時，日作次日止，夜作次夜止。諺曰：「朝北暮南子夜東。」  又曰：「朝三暮七，晝不過一。」蓋其暴者不久，或數時，或一日夜。其柔者久，或二三夜。有一歲再三作者，有三四歲不作者。凡歲有一鬼打節，則有一颶。有二鬼打節，則有二颶。鬼，鬼宿也。打節者，或立春、立夏等節，值鬼宿也。又凡六月有北風必作颶。諺曰：「六月無閑北。」北風為正風舊，東風為左風舊。風舊以鐵颶為大，無堅不摧，故曰鐵，迴南時勢尤猛烈。 

In spite of this fact, perhaps the "Big Wind" explanation is too cute to be rubbished. Almost as cute as the proverbial bigness of the Eskimo snow vocabulary.


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## mataripis

I believe this word came from Aramaic and adopted by many civilizations. In Tagalog there is no word typhoon but has "Ipo Ipo" meaning a circling wind that move in any direction.If i use the ancient term " Te" meaning "there is" i can  create a word that sounds  Te ipo ipo. ( there is a circling wind).


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## MidoriHaru

In Japanese the word for typhoon is 台風 which is pronounced taifu


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## Mike Greenwood

I just wanted to add a general comment about the etymology of Typhoon.  Having been to Egypt I have learnt a few words of the ancient hieroglyphs and am aware there is a hieroglyphs for 'Fan'.  In a dry arid hot country the position of the one who fanned the royal household was an important position.  But the waving of a fan is just the tip of the Iceberg about the word and it's meanings and usage. The fan was involved in the movement of air which was regarded as 'life'.  Which of course is true as with-out the air our planet would not support human kind.  Fan as a letter or hieroglyph could result from the ideological associated importance with the moment of essential air could therefore also mean spirit.  Hebrew has one letter for Pay or Fae (P or F or PH) so 'Fan could also be spelt Pan or Phan and as some may know Pan was the All Everything Spirit, some times considered mischievous.  So fan can be the origin of the wind or breath which cooled the Pharaohs. Therefore there is evidence of the usage of a related word dating to pre 2000 BCE. So before 4019 years ago.   But originally it was a pictograph. A picture of a fan.  The tool which the fan was became the symbol for the phonetic sound of the letter or hieroglyph.
              This is my first post and so I hope it goes to the general comments.


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## berndf

Typhoon is an artificial 16th century English word that is probably derived from three sources: Basically Greek but probably with intended association to Arabic and Chinese words. The English spelling transliterates the Greek source, _τυφών_:_ τ=t, υ=y, φ=ph, ω=oo _and_ ν=n_.


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## Skatinginbc

The Chinese word 颱 *t‘ai 'typhoon' dates back to 1625 in a Ming dynasty document concerning a war with the Dutch army in the Taiwan Strait.  In 1604, the Dutch army abandoned their plan of attacking Macau after encountering a typhoon and instead decided to occupy Penghu, a group of islands 30 miles west of Taiwan.

The word 颱 *t‘ai 'typhoon' is composed of 台 *t‘ai 'big; Taiwan' (台 = 大 'big' as in 台灣 'Taiwan' = 大員 'Taiwan' = 台員 'Taiwan') plus 風 *fyuŋ 'wind' (洪武正韻: 台 *t‘ai, 湯來切, 風 *fyuŋ, 方中切).

What is the earliest recorded date of the Dutch word _tyfoon_ 'typhoon'? If it is earlier than 1604, then the Chinese expression 台風 (also written as 颱) is perhaps borrowed from Dutch.


Ghabi said:


> The name "Taiwan" didn't become established until the 17th century


But the morpheme _Tai_- 台 was already in the names of Taiwan (e.g., 台員, 台窩灣) during the Ming dynasty.


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## Mike Greenwood

Skatinginbc said:


> The Chinese word 颱 *t‘ai 'typhoon' dates back to 1625 in a Ming dynasty document concerning a war with the Dutch army in the Taiwan Strait.  In 1604, the Dutch army abandoned their plan of attacking Macau after encountering a typhoon and instead decided to occupy Penghu, a group of islands 30 miles west of Taiwan.
> 
> The word 颱 *t‘ai 'typhoon' is composed of 台 *t‘ai 'big; Taiwan' (台 = 大 'big' as in 台灣 'Taiwan' = 大員 'Taiwan' = 台員 'Taiwan') plus 風 *fyuŋ 'wind' (洪武正韻: 台 *t‘ai, 湯來切, 風 *fyuŋ, 方中切).
> 
> What is the earliest recorded date of the Dutch word _tyfoon_ 'typhoon'? If it is earlier than 1604, then the Chinese expression 台風 (also written as 颱) is perhaps borrowed from Dutch.
> 
> But the morpheme _Tai_- 台 was already in the names of Taiwan (e.g., 台員, 台窩灣) during the Ming dynasty.



Typhon the monstrous storm god has been known of in Europe for thousands of years and was thought to be a son of Gaea mother earth.  Homer's illiados c.800BCE has references to Typhon who linked to the Egyptian Set or Seti.


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## Skatinginbc

I just learned that the term 風台/風颱 _foŋ-tai_ 'typhoon' (潮州 _huaŋ-thai_), as opposed to 台風/颱風 _tai-foŋ_ 'typhoon', already existed in 1566 Min-nan drama scripts (明嘉靖四十五年潮州戲文刻本《荔鏡記.顏臣》).  The character 台 is a homophone of 篩 'to strike' (as in 風篩 'typhoon') in Min dialects.  That is to say, 風台 was originally intended to mean 風篩 'striking wind', not 'big wind'.  The change from 風篩 _foŋ-tai_ 'typhoon' (dialectal) > 風台 _foŋ-tai _'typhoon' (dialectal) > 颱 _tai _'typhoon' (borrowed into Standard Written Chinese) to finally 颱風 _tai-foŋ_ 'typhoon' (Vernacular Mandarin) seems to me a very natural development that does not require a catalyst from a foreign language.


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## Awwal12

Forero said:


> This has always been my understanding. We don't use _typhoon_ for Atlantic hurricanes, for storms in the Indian Ocean, or even for hurricanes in the eastern Pacific, only for those in the western Pacific. _Phoon_ is _fong_, "wind", but _ty_ is _T'ai_, "Taiwan", as in the words _Taiwan_ and _Taipei_.


That recent usage of "typhoon" might have been possibly influenced by South Chinese idioms in China and on the Malay Archipelago, but the exact origin of the word is obviously unrelated.


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