# Thanks anyway / anyways.



## polyglotwannabe

I was looking in the forum threads, but saw none regarding the translationof this short phrase,
'.....you can attach that kind of document on our forum because it is too large......
_*Me : Okay, Thanks, anyways"*_

.'...das ist in diesem Forum leider nicht vorgesehen. Man kann nur Bilder bestimmter Formate anhängen und auch dabei gilt ein Größenlimit von ......'
Cool, Trotzdem, vielen Dank!.

Do Germans have an equivalent expression for this or, is the one given by me considered standard German?.
Thanks,
poly


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## Lhost Vokus

"Trotzdem vielen Dank" is good, but without comma.

There are several ways:

Schade, trotzdem vielen Dank.
Verstanden, danke auf jeden Fall.
Okay, aber Danke vielmals.

"Cool" is also used in German slang/ colloquial language, but does not fit at all in this case.


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## polyglotwannabe

Lhost Vokus said:


> "Trotzdem vielen Dank" is good, but without comma.
> 
> There are several ways:
> 
> Schade, trotzdem vielen Dank.
> Verstanden, danke auf jeden Fall.
> Okay, aber Danke vielmals.
> 
> "Cool" is also used in German slang/ colloquial language, but does not fit at all in this case.


Excellent.
 Thank you so much!


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## Şafak

Schade, vielen Dank jedenfalls.


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## polyglotwannabe

Jennifer Weiss said:


> Schade, vielen Dank jedenfalls.


Thanks, loved it.


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## Şafak

Be careful. My suggestions in the German forum are usually frowned upon.


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## polyglotwannabe

Jennifer Weiss said:


> Be careful. My suggestions in the German forum are usually frowned upon.


I love people who are frowned upon.


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## Kajjo

Jennifer Weiss said:


> Schade, vielen Dank jedenfalls.





Jennifer Weiss said:


> Be careful. My suggestions in the German forum are usually frowned upon.


Sorry, but in this case again: it's possible, but sounds not idiomatic to me.


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## elroy

Personally I don’t like the phrase “Thanks anyway(s)” in any language.  It has an undertone of disappointment, dissatisfaction, or even criticism — which is at odds with “Thank you.”  I recommend sticking to the thank-you part:

_Thank you!
Thank you for the information!
Thank you for your time!_
etc. 

No need for “anyway(s).”

In German:

_Vielen Dank!
Danke für die Info!
Danke für Ihre Mühe! _
usw.


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## berndf

elroy said:


> It has an undertone of disappointment, dissatisfaction, or even criticism — which is at odds with “Thank you.”


That describes the purpose of using this formulation very well. I guess we all know the state of mind that is well described by that dissonance.


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## Perseas

berndf said:


> That describes the purpose of using this formulation very well. I guess we all know the state of mind that is well described by that dissonance.


Ok, but it is ambiguous. That may express dissatisfaction, disappointment over the fact that they didn't get the answer they wanted or over the fact that the person who replied didn't try much to give a better answer (or both).


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## Hutschi

elroy said:


> It has an undertone of disappointment, dissatisfaction, or even criticism — which is at odds with “Thank you.”


This is just exactly what it is about. And it adds psychological context and shows emotions.

So I think it is correct.



> Schade, trotzdem vielen Dank.


This fits well to the given context.

In formal context, it might be good to omit emotions (Emotionen).

A coll. variant:
Me _: Okay, Thanks, anyways" _
Ich_: Na gut. Danke jedenfalls.

---
PS: in #1 you thank for the answer and are disappointed about the facts._


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## elroy

berndf said:


> the state of mind that is well described by that dissonance


 I don’t see that that state of mind needs to 
be conveyed.


Perseas said:


> it is ambiguous


 Exactly! 

If you want to thank someone, just thank them!  Don’t qualify your thanks.


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## berndf

Perseas said:


> Ok, but it is ambiguous.


Exactly. That's why it fits so well.


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## Hutschi

polyglotwannabe said:


> .....you can attach that kind of document on our forum because it is too large


This is the strange part. It is kind of a contradiction, or there is too much omitted from the sentence.

edit: PS: I would expect: .....you *cannot *attach that kind of document on our forum because it is too large


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## Hutschi

elroy said:


> If you want to thank someone, just thank them! Don’t qualify your thanks.


Danke.


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## Hutschi

Wouldn't #16 sound sarcastic?
In German it does.


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## elroy

berndf said:


> That's why it fits so well.


  

There is a huge difference between
“I know you did everything you could to help, and I genuinely appreciate your efforts, and I regret that things didn’t turn out the way I was hoping they would.”
and
“I don’t think you cared enough about this and I think you could have given me what I needed if you had put in more effort, and I’m only saying ‘thank you’ because, well, you _did_ spend _some_ time on it after all, and I want to be polite and not insult you outright.”

In what way does an expression that could mean either of these things “fit so well”?  Do you think this kind of ambiguity amounts to effective communication?

Furthermore, my feeling is that nine times out of ten what’s meant is closer to the second of the two interpretations I gave above.  Most of the time people  who want to express the first sentiment use other wording.  “Thanks anyway(s)” sounds dismissive, as in “Okay, fine, don’t waste any more of my time.”


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## berndf

elroy said:


> There is a huge difference between
> “I know you did everything you could to help, and I genuinely appreciate your efforts, and I regret that things didn’t turn out the way I was hoping they would.”
> and
> “I don’t think you cared enough about this and I think you could have given me what I needed if you had put in more effort, and I’m only saying ‘thank you’ because, well, you _did_ spend _some_ time on it after all, and I want to be polite and not insult you outright.”


Yes. Those are the ambivalent feelings that frustrating situations can generate at the same time.


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## Hutschi

Hutschi said:


> Wouldn't #16 sound sarcastic?
> In German it does.



Hi, Elroy, I want to explain:

To me it sounds as a kind of blow to me in this pure form. I want to be friendly and say "Thank you, nevertheless."
B: says: _If you want to thank someone, just thank them! Don’t qualify your thanks._
If I say "Danke" in this case, it is strange for me.


But:

You did not write it this way. You wrote:



> Exactly!
> 
> If you want to thank someone, just thank them! Don’t qualify your thanks.



This changes it. "Exactly!" softens it. It gives context.
If I say "Danke!" here, it is not sarcastic.

---
I think, often it is better to write a little bit more and put in emotions. ("Exactly!" builds positive emotions.)


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## Kajjo

elroy said:


> I don’t see that that state of mind needs to
> be conveyed.


I do. The other one knows you will be disappointed or frustrated and he knows he has to pass on a negative statement. There is no need to hide that. Why hide emotions that are absolutely natural and wide-spread and not tabooed? 

When I say "Trotzdem vielen Dank für deine Mühe" then I convey all that is necessary: I understood that it is a negative statement, I expressed my disappointment and I express my thanks.

If I were the one who has to pass on the negative statement and the other one would just thank me, I would be in doubt whether he got the negativity. I would probably repeat myself!

_A: Ich habe Sabine gefragt, ob du auch mitkommen darfst. Sie hat leider gesagt, dass es dieses Mal nicht geht.
B: Danke!
A: äh....?! Es geht NICHT!  
_


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## elroy

berndf said:


> Those are the ambivalent feelings that frustrating situations can generate at the same time.


 The two interpretations I gave are mutually exclusive.  


Hutschi said:


> To me it sounds as a kind of blow to me in this poor form.


 I didn’t mean that you should only ever say “Danke” with a period after.  I said you shouldn’t _qualify_ (“relativieren”, “abschwächen”) your thanks.  By all means feel free to be expressive and enthusiastic in expressing your thanks!

_Thank you so much!
Thank you so much for your generosity!
I’m so thankful for all the hard work you’ve put into this!_
etc.

My beef is specifically with “anyway(s).”


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## Hutschi

I agree I was unfair. I cut off a part of your text. So it was not really your text. Omitting one word made it just to an example. Kajjo explained it further with the original text in #1.


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## elroy

Kajjo said:


> _A: Ich habe Sabine gefragt, ob du auch mitkommen darfst. Sie hat leider gesagt, dass es dieses Mal nicht geht._


 As I said to @Hutschi, I’m not saying you should only ever say “Danke” with no other words.  In this context, for example, I might say “Ach so, schade. Danke, dass du gefragt hast!”.

“Schade” expresses your disappointment with the _outcome_, with no possible implication that you’re disappointed with the _person_ (for example, because they didn’t try to convince Sabine).

If you do want to express disappointment with the person, by all means do so, just not in the same breath as “thank you.”  I’m not saying people should not be able to express their emotions; I’m specifically saying I don’t like this particular phrase, for the reasons I’ve explained.


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## JClaudeK

Hutschi said:


> I agree I was unfair. I cut off a part of your text.


Why unfair? "Danke! *=*


elroy said:


> Vielen Dank!


Both  sound sarcastic to me in the OP-context.


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## elroy

JClaudeK said:


> Both sound sarcastic to me in the OP-context.


 I was not suggesting “Vielen Dank!” for the OP context specifically.  My post was general.


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## Hutschi

JClaudeK said:


> Why unfair? "Danke! *=*


I shortened the quotation so that it did fit. But I mentioned it later.


elroy said:


> I was not suggesting “Vielen Dank!” for the OP context specifically. My post was general.


I think there may be differences in German and English language. In general the meaning depends on context in German language. In most cases it is positive. But depending on context it can change the mood.


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## polyglotwannabe

Very interesting comments. Thanks to you all.
The only thing of merit I can add is that, in USA, when you say _thanks, anyways_, [and it is qualified with a smile or other positive gesture], is not in any way shape or form understood to transmit any feelings of dissatisfaction with the fact that the object of your inquiry was not successful.
As to its effect on a German-speaking audience I am on the outside just lookin' in.


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## elroy

polyglotwannabe said:


> in USA, when you say _thanks, anyways_, [and it is qualified with a smile or other positive gesture], is not in any way shape or form understood to transmit any feelings of dissatisfaction with the fact that the object of your inquiry was not successful.


 Wrong.


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## polyglotwannabe

Thanks to everyone. Elroy, my good friend.  You're entitled to your opinion. I love you for that. Thanks for your interesting input.  It is highly valued by me.


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## JClaudeK

elroy said:


> I was not suggesting “Vielen Dank!” for the OP context specifically.


By OP-context I meant  "Thanks anyway / anyways" e.g.  _thanks with an undertone of disappointment. _


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## polyglotwannabe

Right. Depends on the tone. That is all.


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## elroy

My whole point was that I would *not* use “thanks anyway(s).”  My suggestions were intended to be alternatives that do *not* convey an undertone of disappointment, etc.


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## JClaudeK

elroy said:


> My suggestions were intended to be alternatives that do *not* convey an undertone of disappointment, etc.


But, if the person you've adressed couldn't help you, saying just “Vielen Dank!” sounds sarcastic, so it expresses even a _strong disappointment_.



Lhost Vokus said:


> Trotzdem vielen Dank.


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## elroy

It all depends on context.


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## berndf

elroy said:


> The two interpretations I gave are mutually exclusive.


Yes, that is correct. Both readings at the same time yield a logically inconsistent statement. In the particular case, this is an advantage because it describes an emotional state of minds that is incoherent as well.


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## elroy

In my experience, people do not use this expression to convey mixed or contradictory emotions.


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## Hutschi

In German language it is quite common to express disappointment about the facts explicitly and to thank the other one for explaining the facts or for her or his effords  nevertheless.

_Das ist schade. Ich möchte dir/Dir//Ihnen trotzdem danken.
Murks. Trotzdem vielen Dank._ (stärker umgangssprachlich)
_Schade. Vielleicht gibt es doch noch eine Lösung. Danke für die Antwort._
etc.


In German, if there are bad news, usually you cannot say just "danke".
Of course it also depends on context. 


In English, polyglotwannabe asked explicitely about such phrases in German.

I think for German it is approbriate. I do not decide about English forms here.


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## berndf

elroy said:


> In my experience, people do not use this expression to convey mixed or contradictory emotions.


In my experience, people transmit mixed messages all the time and they do it for a couple of reasons. True ambivalence of their own feelings and opinions is one reason; failure to conceal ones true feelings or opinions  is another and sarcasm a third one. All three of these reasons are potentially applicable here.


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## polyglotwannabe

elroy said:


> The two interpretations I gave are mutually exclusive.
> I didn’t mean that you should only ever say “Danke” with a period after.  I said you shouldn’t _qualify_ (“relativieren”, “abschwächen”) your thanks.  By all means feel free to be expressive and enthusiastic in expressing your thanks!
> 
> _Thank you so much!
> Thank you so much for your generosity!
> I’m so thankful for all the hard work you’ve put into this!_
> etc.
> 
> My beef is specifically with “anyway(s).”


Elroy,
Thanks anyways( I know you tried hard, as hard as you could but you could not do it for me). No matter the results, I am appreciative. That is all there is to it, my friend.


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## Kajjo

Hutschi said:


> In German language it is quite common to express disappointment about the facts explicitly


We express a lot of things more directly and we even act more directly. So if we want a idiomatic, normal-German way, then it is absolutely OK to express such aspects.

I don think that it help to use the taboos or political-correctness or "good intentions" of other languages in such a question.

Fact is, most Germans would say something like "Trotzdem danke".


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## elroy

I think we all know why people use it.  Those reasons are exactly why I don’t like it and don’t think I’ve ever used it (or ever will).


Kajjo said:


> I don think that it help to use the taboos or political-correctness or "good intentions" of other languages in such a question.


 None of these have anything to do with why I don’t like the expression.


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## Sowka

I tend to separate my thanks from any other considerations that I may have. Recently, I had an exchange about a suggestion I made. The person replying wrote that they were considering it, but there was little chance of it being implemented.

I wrote: "Vielen Dank für Ihre prompte Antwort! Allerdings muss ich sagen, dass ..."

In the OP context, there is no need for "anyway". If someone told me that a system simply can't handle the size of my file, I would say or write:

_Alles klar. Vielen Dank! _

I was often in the situation of the person giving the (disappointing) info, and I had no means to change anything about what disappointed my customers.


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## Kajjo

Sowka said:


> Alles klar. Vielen Dank!


That's very idiomatic for me in exactly this situation, too.


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## elroy

Let me clarify a few things:
1.) I'm not saying that "danke trotzdem" is *not* a good translation of "thanks anyway(s)."  I agree that they are equivalents of each other, and I agree that many people use them.  I'm saying that I wouldn't use or recommend using either expression.
2.) When I suggested "Vielen Dank!", I didn't necessarily mean that I would say _nothing else_.  What else I would say would depend on the context/situation.  I agree that a naked "Vielen Dank!" (or a naked "Danke!") could be curt, dismissive, or sarcastic in certain situations (and depending on the tone of voice).
3.) I'm not saying one should not be able to express their disappointment (or any other emotion they are feeling).  There are numerous ways to express your disappointment if that's what you want to do (I gave an example, "schade").  What I'm saying is that I wouldn't use this particular formulation; i.e. I would not express disappointment while simultaneously thanking someone.

Having thought about this a bit more, I think I've managed to more clearly identify why the expression bugs me so much.

We use "anyway"/"trotzdem" to mean or imply that although one might expect that X would _not_ happen under certain circustmances, it actually _did_ happen or _is_ happening or _will_ happen.

For example:

It's not supposed to rain today.  I'm taking my umbrella anyway.​Es soll heute nicht regnen.  Ich nehme trotzdem meinen Regenschirm mit.​
The usual expectation would be that you _wouldn't_ take your umbrella if it's not supposed to rain.  "anyway"/"trotzdem" highlights that something is being done _contrary to usual expectations_.

So "thanks anyway"/"danke trotzdem" to me implies that the usual expectation would be that I would _not_ be thanked, but this person, out of the greatness of their heart, is thanking me _anyway_.  Oh, how mighty generous of them!  They're thanking me _anyway_!  I should be so lucky to be graced with such magnanimity!

Uh, no thanks.  If I made efforts to help you with something, I deserve to be thanked regardless of the outcome.  My receiving thanks should not be contingent upon whether or not you got the outcome you wanted!  As @Sowka says, those are two separate matters.

1.) Thank you for your efforts.
2.) I'm disappointed / upset / angry / sad / ...

Both of these can be expressed.  Expressing them in the same breath is like a back-handed compliment.  No thanks.


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## Kajjo

elroy said:


> So "thanks anyway"/"danke trotzdem" to me implies that the usual expectation would be that I would _not_ be thanked, but this person, out of the greatness of their heart, is thanking me _anyway_. Oh, how mighty generous of them! They're thanking me _anyway_! I should be so lucky to be graced with such magnanimity!


I understand now better where you are coming from. However, I never understood the phrase this way. We all know how it is meant -- so there is no sense in a word-by-word analysis that leads to the contrary interpretation than was originally intended. Bu again, yes, you are right, if we were to use this analogous reasoning it would be magnanimous.


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## elroy

Kajjo said:


> We all know how it is meant -- so there is no sense in a word-by-word analysis that leads to the contrary interpretation than was originally intended.


 That's the thing, though -- I _don't_ think it's always meant the same way.  As a matter of fact, as I said earlier, I think most of the time there are in fact at least traces of the exaggerated implications I described.  So I'm not just engaging in a literal analysis; I think my reactions to the phrase are related to the actual intentions behind it in many cases.  My lexical analysis and the umbrella analogy were attempts to better articulate or explain my discomfort with the expression.


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## Hutschi

elroy said:


> So "thanks anyway"/"danke trotzdem" to me implies that the usual expectation would be that I would _not_ be thanked, but this person, out of the greatness of their heart, is thanking me _anyway_.


I see. So I indicate the difference.
I omit "thanks anyway" because of possible English connotations.

"Danke trotzdem" implies that the usual expectation would be that I would _not_ be thanked* if *such hard errors/failures occur at my side (meaning if I  disappointed the person due to an error in my system), but this person, out of the greatness of their heart, is thanking me _anyway_.

"Danke" you say  in German if someone helps you.

Danke trotzdem - this says that the other could not help you but tried it or gave you some explaining answers. The help was unsuccessfully.

Example:
I go into a radio shop with a new ad from today's newspaper and want to buy a radio defined in the ad. They say in the ad: "Please come to us, it is a really good one" in the ad.  (Such things were quite common but are forbidden now as far as I know.)

I go there and they tell me: _Sorry, we do not have it anymore. Two weeks ago we sold the last one._
If I say only _Danke. _in German it clearly is sarcasm.
If I say "Danke trotzdem", it says "Even while  you completely disappointed me and the ad was a pure lie, I want to thank you. I think it is not your personal fault. So I try to be cooperative even if your shop is not.
(If I thank you because I am polite or just by generosity does not matter.)


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## elroy

Hutschi said:


> If I say only _Danke. _in German it clearly is sarcasm.


 I don’t know why you keep harping on this point.  As I said repeatedly, I’m not saying the alternative is a bare “Danke.”  There are a million things you could add to express your sentiments and strike the right tone.


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## Sowka

Hutschi said:


> If I say "Danke trotzdem", it says "Even while you completely disappointed me and the ad was a pure lie, I want to thank you. I think it is not your personal fault. So I try to be cooperative even if your shop is not.


For me, the problem is that the person you are talking to probably can't do anything about it and may even share your feelings of disappointment. It's probably a mere shop assistant who is as cheated and exploited by the company as you are. 

As I said before, I tend to be very clear. I thank the person for their efforts. Period. And, separately, I tell them where I see a problem. This doesn't cloud my thanks to them as a person.


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## bearded

Suppose I ask someone in the street: ''Wo befindet sich der Augsburger Platz, bitte?''
and the person replies: ''Ich bin leider nicht ortskundig''.
In this case both ''Danke trotzdem'' and in English ''(Well), thanks anyway''  would seem appropriate to me. Elroy, wouldn't this be the right context /scenario? 



elroy said:


> It all depends on context.


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## Sowka

I would say: "Kein Problem. Danke!" because I would feel that the person felt bad for not being able to help me ("leider").


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## JClaudeK

bearded said:


> Elroy, wouldn't this be the right context?


Ursprünglich ging es um eine schriftliche Antwort (im Forum) auf einen negativen Bescheid. Da fände ich ein schlichtes_ "Danke./ Vielen Dank!" _auf jeden Fall unangebracht.


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## bearded

Sowka said:


> I would say: "Kein Problem. Danke!" because I would feel that the person felt bad for not being able to help me ("leider").


Du bist höflicher/einfühlender als ich.


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## Hutschi

elroy said:


> I don’t know why you keep harping on this point.  As I said repeatedly, I’m not saying the alternative is a bare “Danke.”  There are a million things you could add to express your sentiments and strike the right tone.


I am sure they will misunderstand you in context #1 in many cases in Germany. It may be  another thing in English - it may also be it is different in different parts of Germany. I did not know that in English in this situation pure "Danke" is enough. Thank you for this information.
In German the option is to say a kind of "good bye" or to say "danke" making it clear that this refers to the friendlyness of the other one, not to the fact that he could not really help.

Edit: PS:

Obzwar:


> '.....you *cannot *attach that kind of document on our forum because it is too large......
> _*Me : Good Bye"*_


This might be received as  rude and it says that I do not want to meet the other one again.

(I understand "can" as typo for "cannot" because the sentence does not make any sense else. The proper answer would not be "Thank you" but "What do you mean with this, could you explain please? Was it a typo?")

---


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## JClaudeK

bearded said:


> Suppose I ask someone in the street: ''Wo befindet sich der Augsburger Platz, bitte?''
> and the person replies: ''Ich bin leider nicht ortskundig''.
> 
> 
> Sowka said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would say: "Kein Problem. Danke!"
Click to expand...


Oder "Das macht nichts, danke!"


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## elroy

Sowka said:


> I would say: "Kein Problem. Danke!" because I would feel that the person felt bad for not being able to help me ("leider").


Exactly.  In English I might say "Oh, okay, no problem.  Thank you!".

My comment about context was in relation to my suggestion of "Vielen Dank!".  I meant to say that whether or not that would come across as sarcastic would depend on the context, what is said before and/or after, etc.

I can't think of a context in which I would find any merit to adding "anyway/trotzdem."


JClaudeK said:


> Da fände ich ein schlichtes_ "Danke./ Vielen Dank!" _auf jeden Fall unangebracht.


 How many times do I have to say that "Vielen Dank!" was *just one possible GENERAL suggestion *that may or may not work depending on the specific context/situation.  *I was not referring to the specific context in the OP.  *My point was that I would _*never*_ use "Danke trotzdem" in _*any*_ situation, and I gave some possible alternatives that, again, may or may not work depending on the specific context/situation.


Hutschi said:


> I did not know that in English in this situation pure "Danke" is enough.


 Nicht zu fassen. 

Seriously, are people even reading my posts?!


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## JClaudeK

elroy said:


> How many times do I have to say that "Vielen Dank!" was *just one possible GENERAL suggestion *that may or may not work depending on the specific context/situation


Na klar.
Aber wenn das *allgemein gültig* sein soll (schließlich ist Deine #9 ja auch eine Antwort auf die Titelfrage, oder? - sonst wäre  sie ja _off topic ......!_) ist mein Einwand durchaus berechtigt.


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## berndf

JClaudeK said:


> ber wenn das *allgemein gültig* sein soll


Von _allgemein *gültig*_ hat er nichts gesagt. Er hat nur gesagt, dass es eine _allgemeine _Lösung sei, für die es im Einzelfall natürlich Gegenargumente geben könne.


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## JClaudeK

berndf said:


> für die es im Einzelfall natürlich Gegenargumente geben könne.


Davon steht in #9 nichts.


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## elroy

No, your objection is not valid, because (for the umpteenth time) I never said that "Vielen Dank!" would necessarily be the _only_ thing you would say in response!  As I've repeatedly said over and over again in this thread, you can add things before and after depending on how you want to convey the sentiment.

For example, in the OP example:

A: _Dieses Document können Sie leider nicht anhängen, weil es zu groß ist._
B: _Ach so, alles klar! Das wusste ich gar nicht. Sie haben mir mit dieser Information sehr geholfen. Vielen Dank! _


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## berndf

JClaudeK said:


> Davon steht in #9 nichts.


Das ist genau der Unterschied zwischen _allgemein _und _allgemein gültig_ und letzteres hat er, wie gesagt, nie benutzt. Er sagte _general_ und das bedeutet _allgemein_ und nicht _allgemein gültig_. Der Zusatz _allgemein_ weist immer auf mögliche Ausnahmen hin.


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## elroy

berndf said:


> für die es im Einzelfall natürlich Gegenargumente geben könne.





JClaudeK said:


> Davon steht in #9 nichts.


 Nicht explizit, aber ich habe doch mittlerweile wiederholt haargenau beschrieben, was ich gemeint habe. Möchtest Du denn aufgrund neuer Erkenntnisse und dessen, was ich tatsächlich gemeint habe, weitermachen oder immer wieder aufgrund dessen, was Du bei meinem allerersten Beitrag, dem mittlerweile mehr als fünfzig Beiträge gefolgt sind, (miss)verstanden hattest?


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## Hutschi

...


elroy said:


> I can't think of a context in which I would find any merit to adding "anyway/trotzdem."


Hi, elroy, maybe if you consider them as false friends in this context, this might help.


I give context, it is not about our conversation:

_Ich denke, was Du schreibst, ist falsch.
Trotzdem vielen Dank._

If I say:

_Ich denke, was Du schreibst, ist falsch.
Vielen Dank._
Here it is sarcastic. Es ist ein "vergifteter" Dank.

_Ich denke, was Du schreibst, ist falsch.
Vielen Dank auch.
Das verstärkt den Sarkasmus._

Es spielt dabei keine besondere Rolle, ob der jeweils erste Satz vom anderen gesagt wurde oder mit zur Antwort gehört.

Es ist sicherlich eine unterschiedliche Denkweise unserer Kulturen.

---

Noch ein Dialog zur Verdeutlichung:

A: _Ich habe dir das jetzt schon hundertmal gesagt!_

Hier kann man nicht neutral mit "Vielen Dank!" antworten.
"Trotzdem vielen Dank!" würde passen. Auch wenn es sarkastisch ist.


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## Sowka

Ich gehöre auch zu dieser "anderen Kultur" 



Hutschi said:


> I give context, it is not about our conversation:
> 
> _Ich denke, was Du schreibst, ist falsch.
> Trotzdem vielen Dank._



Wie ich in meiner #43 schon geschrieben habe, würde ich das genau anders herum formulieren: Erst den Dank. Und dann alle weiteren Überlegungen.

In Deinem Fall also zum Beispiel:

"Vielen Dank für Deine schnelle Antwort!

Ich kann Deine Einschätzung jedoch nicht teilen (, weil ....)."

Wie gesagt: Mir ist es wichtig, den Dank (für die Antwort, für die Mühe) uneingeschränkt zu äußern. Und danach setze ich mich mit dem auseinander, was möglicherweise problematisch ist.


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## διαφορετικός

bearded said:


> Suppose I ask someone in the street: ''Wo befindet sich der Augsburger Platz, bitte?''
> and the person replies: ''Ich bin leider nicht ortskundig''.
> In this case both ''Danke trotzdem'' and in English ''(Well), thanks anyway'' would seem appropriate to me.


I agree. "Danke, kein Problem" could be more polite, but it might also sound like a lie. You could also say the single word sentence "Danke", but this displays less respect for the other person's statement.


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## elroy

διαφορετικός said:


> it might also sound like a lie.


  
Why would it be more likely to sound like a lie than "Danke trotzdem"?


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## διαφορετικός

elroy said:


> Why would it be more likely to sound like a lie than "Danke trotzdem"?


Because I still have the problem to find the "Augsburger Platz" and there might be no one who can help me.


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## elroy

"Kein Problem" means "It's no problem that you don't know" (i.e. "Don't worry about it"), not "It's not a problem that I don't know where the Augsburger Platz is."


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## διαφορετικός

elroy said:


> "Don't worry about it"


Well, for me this has a clearly different meaning. I do not understand how "Kein Problem" could mean the same. Except if you would say "Kein Problem für dich" - which would seem sarcastic again.


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## elroy

I don’t know about Switzerland.  In Germany, it has the meaning I gave.  It has a pragmatic function as a polite response to a direct or indirect apology (as in this example).


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## Hutschi

elroy said:


> "Kein Problem" means "It's no problem that you don't know" (i.e. "Don't worry about it"), not "It's not a problem that I don't know where the Augsburger Platz is."


I agree.  

---


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## JClaudeK

Gerade fällt mir eine "Kompromisslösung*" ein: "Danke jedenfalls!"

* kein _ undertone of disappointment, dissatisfaction, or even criticism, / _kann (m.E.) nicht als Sarkasmus aufgefasst werden.


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## berndf

Ich habe gestern erst wieder _Danke, trotzdem_ gehört. Die Wendung ist m.E. tatsächlich üblich. Normalerweise ist durch Kontext, Intonation und Gesichtsgestik klar, wie es gemeint ist. In dem Fall war es freundlich gemeint.


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## Schlabberlatz

JClaudeK said:


> Gerade fällt mir eine "Kompromisslösung*" ein: "Danke jedenfalls!"


Siehe oben #2 und #4 


Lhost Vokus said:


> Verstanden, danke auf jeden Fall.





Jennifer Weiss said:


> Schade, vielen Dank jedenfalls.




"Thanks anyway" wurde auch an anderer Stelle schon besprochen:
Search results for query: thank anyway


aprendiendo1 said:


> If someone tried to help and helped a little or not at all I say
> 
> 1) Thanks anyway!
> 2) Thanks for trying!
> 
> Say it with a smile and it's fine. I don't mind when people say it to me. It's all about your tone of voice.


Scheint also nicht von allen Muttersprachlern so kritisch gesehen zu werden wie von elroy 


Thank you anyway

Edit:


Lyng said:


> Do you think only "Thank you" is always better?





a little edgy said:


> Always better? Not necessarily. If the person has obviously not been able to help, despite his best efforts, then "thanks anyway" or "thanks for trying" is probably better because it's the conventional, expected response. Saying just "thank you" may elicit the reply "for what?"


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## elroy

Schlabberlatz said:


> Scheint also nicht von allen Muttersprachlern so kritisch gesehen zu werden wie von elroy


 Ja, natürlich nicht. Es wird genauso wie der deutsche Ausdruck sehr oft verwendet. Meine Ablehnung hat ja wie gesagt nicht mit Englisch oder Deutsch zu tun, sondern mit dem Ausdruck an sich, abgesehen von der Sprache.


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## Schlabberlatz

Na gut, alles klar.


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## Perseas

Yesterday, a colleague and friend invited me to her house for a drink with her family and I denied because I had a lot work to do.
This is a different context from the OP's, as the other person made me a very kind offer and it was me that I refused.
In this case I thought to use the Greek equivalent of "Danke trotzdem" meaning: "Danke für die Einladung, trotzdem kann ich leider nicht kommen". So, I think this is a context where this expression can be used.


elroy said:


> I can't think of a context in which I would find any merit to adding "anyway/trotzdem."
> How many times do I have to say that "Vielen Dank!" was *just one possible GENERAL suggestion *that may or may not work depending on the specific context/situation.  *I was not referring to the specific context in the OP. *My point was that I would _*never*_ use "Danke trotzdem" in _*any*_ situation, and I gave some possible alternatives that, again, may or may not work depending on the specific context/situation.


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## Thersites

Hutschi said:


> If I say only _Danke. _in German it clearly is sarcasm.


Lol, this much is true 😂


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## Sowka

Perseas said:


> Yesterday, a colleague and friend invited me to her house for a drink with her family and I denied because I had a lot work to do.
> This is a different context from the OP's, as the other person made me a very kind offer and it was me that I refused.
> In this case I thought to use the Greek equivalent of "Danke trotzdem" meaning: "Danke für die Einladung, trotzdem kann ich leider nicht kommen". So, I think this is a context where this expression can be used.


"Trotzdem" würde ich auch in dieser Situation nicht sagen. Irgendwie klingt für mich zuviel Opposition in dem Wort an. Eher so etwas wie "Oh, da kann ich leider nicht. Aber ganz lieben / herzlichen Dank für die Einladung jedenfalls! Bestimmt klappt es das nächste Mal."


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## διαφορετικός

Perseas said:


> "Danke für die Einladung, trotzdem kann ich leider nicht kommen"


Wie Sowka finde ich diese Formulierung nicht ganz passend: Sie klingt so, als ob der Dank im Normalfall das Nicht-Kommen-Können verhindern würde. In Wirklichkeit stellt man es sich eher umgekehrt vor: Wenn man der Einladung nicht folgt, dankt man vielleicht auch nicht, obschon man das in der Regel natürlich trotzdem tut. Mit einer kleinen Umstellung geht es wieder:
"Ich kann leider nicht kommen. Danke trotzdem für die Einladung."
Auch möglich:
"Danke für die Einladung, aber ich kann leider nicht kommen."


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## JClaudeK

Perseas said:


> "Danke für die Einladung, trotzdem kann ich leider nicht kommen"


Ich habe den Eindruck, dass Perseas eigentlich meint: "Danke für die Einladung, obwohl ich leider nicht kommen kann."

Aber auch das könnte missverstanden werden;  Sowkas Vorschlag
oder 


διαφορετικός said:


> "Ich kann leider nicht kommen. Danke trotzdem für die Einladung."


sind besser.


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## kwak22

elroy said:


> If I made efforts to help you with something, I deserve to be thanked regardless of the outcome.  My receiving thanks should not be contingent upon whether or not you got the outcome you wanted!


This is probably a question of worldview rather than language, but I do think that thanking shouldn't depend on the effort, but only on what Germans call, I believe, _Gemüt_. Thanking is an action of heart, one is free to perform it, and there are even unwelcome thanks, just like in general any unwelcome communication of feelings, it depends on the people involved and so on. Linking it to the linguistic question, that is what many people might _mean_ by thanks: a free communication of the feeling of gratitude; and while some might not like it, others are free to use it, and there is nothing bad about it.

Someone wants to say that he is disappointed, and that despite his bad feelings, he is willing to overcome them and to express his gratitude, acknowledgement, and so on. Sometimes it is an act of showing off one's magnamity, but very often it's not, it's just genuine and not so "grand". A normal thing to happen, and not at all a contradiction; may I even say that while disappointment is a _passion_ of heart (what we came to call 'feeling' in our era), acknowledgement (gratitude) is an _action_ of heart, so they cannot contradict each other, they only coexist. The first belongs to _Seele_, the second to _Gemüt_.

Of course (another linguistic note), all of that means that expressions of this sort are for use mainly in informal situations. When formal, people usually hide their feelings and speak words of convenience.


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