# all Slavic: noun or adverb for a language?



## Gavril

Some Slavic languages use different constructions to refer to a language, depending on the context. 

For example, a noun or noun phrase is used in some contexts:

Slovene: _Angleščina je uradni jezik v Veliki Britaniji._ "English is an official language in Great Britain"

In other contexts, an adverb or a prepositional phrase is used:

Slovene:
_Ali govorite angleško?_ "Do you speak English?"
_Kako se to reče po angleško? _"How do you say it in English?"

How does each Slavic language translate sentences like the above?

Thanks for any info


(PS. -- I realize that Google Translate could be used to investigate this question, but it doesn't seem equally reliable for all languages yet.)


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## itreius

BCS would use the adjective/adverb construction in all three cases. 


_Engleski_ je službeni jezik u Velikoj Britaniji.

Govorite li _engleski_?

Kako se to kaže na _engleskom_?


Languages used to be referred to as nouns in the past (_Portugalština_, _Talijanština_, etc.), but that's not too common anymore. Noun names for the local dialects are however still a common occurence (_Štokavština_, _Kajkavština_, etc.).


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## bibax

Czech:

_*Angličtina* je úředním jazykem ve Velké Británii.
_
_Mluvíte *anglicky*?
Jak se to řekne *anglicky*?_

There is also _"po anglicku"_ = in an English way.

_Udělej to *po anglicku*!_ = Do it in an English way (whatever that is)!


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## Azori

> Slovene: _Angleščina je uradni jezik v Veliki Britaniji._ "English is an official language in Great Britain"


In Slovak: _Angličtina_ je úradným jazykom vo Veľkej Británii. _(noun)_ / _Anglický jazyk_ je úradným jazykom vo Veľkej Británii. _(adjective + noun)_


> _Ali govorite angleško?_ "Do you speak English?"


Hovoríte _po anglicky?_ _(adverb; "po" is a particle)_ / Hovoríte _anglicky?_ _(adverb)_


> _Kako se to reče po angleško? _"How do you say it in English?"


Ako sa to povie _(po) anglicky?_ _(adverb)_


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## oveka

Ukrainian: _Англійська - офіційна мова у Великій Британії._ "English is an official language in Great Britain"
_Ви балакаєте aнглійською/по-англійськи__/по-англійському?_ "Do you speak English?"
_Як сказати __aнглійською__/__по-англійськи__/по-англійському__? _"How do you say it in English?"
Але ще _по-англійськи__/по-англійському _- так роблять англійці.


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## marco_2

Polish:  _Angielski _jest językiem urzędowym w Wielkiej Brytanii. (English is an official language in Great Britain)
          Czy mówisz / mówi pan(i) _po angielsku_? (Do you speak English?)
          Jak powiedzieć _po angielsku...? _/ Jak się mówi _po angielsku..._? (How do you say it in English?)

But we also use the word _polszczyzna_ (e.g. poprawna polszczyzna - correct Polish language), for other languages (angielszczyzna, francuszczyzna) it is not very common, though possible (not for all languages).

And for Latin we use the word _łacina_, though _język łaciński _is also possible, but only "mówić _po łacinie" _(to speak Latin). Also _greka _(Greek language), especially classical, ancient Greek (contemporary Greek is rather _język grecki_), but only "mówić _po grecku" _(to speak Greek).


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## Encolpius

Azori said:


> ... Ako sa to povie _(po) anglicky?_ _(adverb)_



Is there any difference between anglicky & po anglicky in style, frequency etc?


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## ahvalj

*Russian:*
"English is an official language in Great Britain" — «Английский — официальный язык в Великобритании» (adjective).
"Do you speak English?" — «Вы говорите по-английски?» (adverb from "по + former Instrumental Plural of the short adjective") or less often «Вы говорите на английском?» ("на + adjective").
"How do you say it in English?" — «Как сказать это по-английски» or less often «как сказать это на английском?» (the same constructions as in the previous case).

For Latin there is a noun «латынь», which is often preferred to the adjective «латинский (язык)»:
«Латынь (латинский) — официальный язык Румынии».
«Вы говорите на латыни (на латинском, по латыни, по-латински)?».
«Как сказать это на латыни (на латинском, по латыни, по-латински)?».

In the rare cases, the names of other languages are nouns — «санскрит», «иврит», «идиш», «брадж», «фарси», «суржик», «трасянка»:
«Санскрит — официальный язык Украины».
«Вы говорите на санскрите?» (note «на» instead of «по»).
«Как сказать это на санскрите?» (also «на», not «по»).


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## jakowo

I can understand -(к)и from the former Instr. Pl. of the short adjective (-ы),  but по- with Instr. Pl. ??


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## ahvalj

jakowo said:


> I can understand -(к)и from the former Instr. Pl. of the short adjective (-ы),  but по- with Instr. Pl. ??


I think it may be a contamination of two constructions: «мастерски» and «по-новому», the latter one using various cases across the Slavic languages (Dative in Russian, other cases elsewhere).


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## ahvalj

By the way, Russian also has this "по + the former Instr. Pl." in the adverbs formed from j-possessives: «по-лисьи», «по-волчьи». Occasionally, all the three forms exist: «по-человечески», «по-человечьи» and «по человечьему».


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## bibax

In Czech (IMO also in Polish) the preposition *po* needs the locative. In Russian *po* uses dative (in most cases): po teátr*am* = po divadl*ech*, po magazín*am* = po obchod*ech* (magazín*ech*), ...

So we say *po anglicku, po řecku,* ... where anglicku/řecku is locative sing. of short adjectives anglicko/řecko (neuter gender).

However some people say *po anglicky, po řecky, *... where anglicky/řecky is indeed instr. plur. Maybe it is an influence of Slovak (po anglicky, po grécky). On the web, you can find _"ryba po řecku"_ as well as _"ryba po řecky"_ (it sounds ugly to me).

In correct Czech the adverbs *anglicky, řecky,* ... are used without any preposition.

Mluvíme anglicky. 
Mluvíme po anglicky. 
Ryba po anglicku. 
Ryba po anglicky.


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## ahvalj

As far as understand, the Slovene "po angleško" (is it a feminine form?) must be in Accusative, so we have here a third variant of government. Also, Ukrainian «по-англійському», despite being formally identical to the Russian expression, is in fact in Locative if I am not mistaken («по першому поверсі»).


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## Azori

Encolpius said:


> Is there any difference between anglicky & po anglicky in style, frequency etc?


I think using "po" is more common, at least in written language. Otherwise, there's no difference in meaning.


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## jakowo

As far as I understand, the Slovene "po angleško" (is it a feminine form?) must be in Accusative...

@ahvalj:
Jože Toporišič in his «Zakaj ne po slovensko» declares p. 186:
"Iz pridevnikov delamo prislove tako, da osnovi dodamo obrazilo –o
(...) Iz nekaterih pridevnikov delamo prislov s po: govorim 
(...) po angleško..." .


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## ahvalj

jakowo said:


> As far as I understand, the Slovene "po angleško" (is it a feminine form?) must be in Accusative...
> 
> @ahvalj:
> Jože Toporišič in his «Zakaj ne po slovensko» declares p. 186:
> "Iz pridevnikov delamo prislove tako, da osnovi dodamo obrazilo –o
> (...) Iz nekaterih pridevnikov delamo prislov s po: govorim
> (...) po angleško..." .


Does this mean that nouns and adjectives use another case (e. g. Locative) after "po" in Slovene?


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## Gavril

ahvalj said:


> Does this mean that nouns and adjectives use another case (e. g. Locative) after "po" in Slovene?



Slovene _po_ can be followed by either the accusative or the locative. I would guess that a form like _angleško_ in _po angleško_ was originally an accusative (neuter singular?), since one of the meanings of _po_ + accusative is "in the manner of".


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## jasio

marco_2 said:


> But we also use the word _polszczyzna_ (e.g. poprawna polszczyzna - correct Polish language), for other languages (angielszczyzna, francuszczyzna) it is not very common, though possible (not for all languages).



I'd even say that they are used almost exclusively in very specific contexts, with a small subset of language names, and sound very colloquial, like "jego angielszczyzna jest do bani" ('his English just sucks'). Besides, these nouns - perhaps except for "_polszczyzna_" - do not univocally mean the language, sometimes they refer to influences, aping something etc. A special case is "_włoszczyzna_", which does not refer to the Italian language at all, but rather to a common, specific set of vegetables. 



marco_2 said:


> And for Latin we use the word _łacina_, though _język łaciński _is also possible, but only "mówić _po łacinie" _(to speak Latin). Also _greka _(Greek language), especially classical, ancient Greek (contemporary Greek is rather _język grecki_), but only "mówić _po grecku" _(to speak Greek).



I've never thought of it this way, but indeed you are right. 
"Znam łacinę" - "I speak (literally: I know) Latin" 
"Znam grekę" - "I speak/understand Greek (classical/ancient/koine)"
"Znam grecki" - "I speak Greek (modern)"

Where "greka" and "łacina" are both nouns, and "grecki" is an adjective.


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## Thomas1

jasio said:


> [...] A special case is "_włoszczyzna_", which does not refer to the Italian language at all, but rather to a common, specific set of vegetables.[...]


 "włoszczyzna" can also refer to the Italian language, culture, etc. From the dictionary by W. Doroszewski:
Ustała przewaga włoszczyzny, miejsce jej zajęła francuszczyzna. Brück. _Lit. 122_.


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## jakowo

@ ahvalj
Yes, but I believe now it's rather an acc. neuter sg. (see Gavril).
My doubts turned out to be unfounded. Excuse me. 
Wo.


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## jasio

Thomas1 said:


> "włoszczyzna" can also refer to the Italian language, culture, etc. From the dictionary by W. Doroszewski:
> Ustała przewaga włoszczyzny, miejsce jej zajęła francuszczyzna. Brück. _Lit. 122_.



Formally, perhaps you are right. But have you ever heard it in this meaning in a real life situation?


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## Thomas1

jasio said:


> Formally, perhaps you are right. But have you ever heard it in this meaning in a real life situation?


There are lots of words I've only come across in written texts (which are real, by the way), but that's not the point. Saying that «A special case is "_włoszczyzna_", which does not refer to the Italian language at all» is misleading. Besides, 1) you hardly ever hear these forms in common parlance except for a handful of them, 2) I can easily imagine it being used in a conversation in a specific context.


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## jarabina

> Originally Posted by *Encolpius*
> 
> 
> Is there any difference between anglicky & po anglicky in style, frequency etc?





> I think using "po" is more common, at least in written language. Otherwise, there's no difference in meaning.



I was told that 'Hovorite anglicky?' was a Czechism and should not be used in Slovak. I'd be interested in what others think about this. I always use 'po anglicky' in these kind of sentences because I thought it was wrong to miss out the 'po'.


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## Encolpius

jarabina said:


> I was told that 'Hovorite anglicky?' was a Czechism and should not be used in Slovak. I'd be interested in what others think about this. I always use 'po anglicky' in these kind of sentences because I thought it was wrong to miss out the 'po'.



That was my observation, too.


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## Azori

jarabina said:


> I was told that 'Hovorite anglicky?' was a Czechism and should not be used in Slovak. I'd be interested in what others think about this. I always use 'po anglicky' in these kind of sentences because I thought it was wrong to miss out the 'po'.


Both "hovoriť anglicky" and "hovoriť po anglicky" are correct:

http://slovniky.korpus.sk/?w=anglicky&s=exact&c=4328&d=kssj4&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
http://jazykovaporadna.sme.sk/q/5838/

Using "po" seems to be more common, though. Some search results from the Slovak National Corpus:

hovoriť po anglicky - 161 results vs. hovoriť anglicky - 37 results
hovoríte po anglicky - 28 results vs. hovoríte anglicky - 1 result
hovoriť po nemecky - 61 results vs. hovoriť nemecky - 8 results
hovoriť po česky - 44 results vs. hovoriť česky - 11 results


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## jarabina

Good to know - thanks very much Azori.


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## iezik

jakowo said:


> As far as I understand, the Slovene "po angleško" (is it a feminine form?) must be in Accusative...
> 
> @ahvalj:
> Jože Toporišič in his «Zakaj ne po slovensko» declares p. 186:
> "Iz pridevnikov delamo prislove tako, da osnovi dodamo obrazilo –o
> (...) Iz nekaterih pridevnikov delamo prislov s po: govorim
> (...) po angleško..." .



Toporišič uses term "multipart words" what others usually name "phrase". In his grammar, it lists in the chapter on morphology as examples of "multipart word" to be "misliti na", "delal sem". In similar way, he also lists examples of prepositional phrases in the morphology chapter "po slovensko", "po naše". I prefer to use term "prepositional phrase", like the starter of this thread. Ahvalj's quote is another manifestation of proclaiming "po angleško" to be a single word. Dictionaries often do the same, one of my favorite lists phrases as words: fifth column, fifty pence, fig leaf, figure head. These phrases are claimed to be nouns.

The form "po naše" supports the usage of adjective in neutrum singular accusative (as already others noticed) without a noun.


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## jakowo

Thank you very much for your statement, jezik.

Greetings, jakowo.


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## ahvalj

iezik said:


> Ahvalj's quote is another manifestation of proclaiming "po angleško" to be a single word.


The Russian grammatical tradition uses a very simple principle: if the basic component doesn't exist separately, the entire construction is considered a single word, thus _po-angliyski_ is one word, since *_angliyski_ doesn't exist anymore. There are also several "broken" words (not an official term), in which the prefix may be separated from the root by a preposition, e. g. _nikogó_ vs. _ni ot kogó_ or _nékomu_ vs. _né po komu_.


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