# pronunciation of "Pilke"



## marsbeing

Hello everybody, Pilke is a place in Finland. How is it pronounced?

Thanks in advance.


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## DrWatson

It's pronounced like it's written, /pilke/


However, if it appears before another word, there may be a glottal stop or a consonant in the end as a result of certain sandhi phenomena (not indicated in spelling):


_Pilke on paikka Suomessa._ /pilke*ʔ ʔ*on pɑikkɑ suomessɑ/
_Pilke sijaitsee Suomessa._ /pilke*s s*ijɑitse: suomessɑ/


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## natkretep

Finnish spelling is very regular, so you should be able to work out the Finnish pronunciation from the spelling: in this case _pill _+ _ken _without the <n> pronounced.


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## marsbeing

I see. Thanks Dr. : )

Edit:

And thank you, natkretep.


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## Gavril

In some people's pronunciation, would you hear a short vowel sound between the "l" and the "k"? (I.e., ['piləke])


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## marsbeing

I see. Thanks for the information, Gavril. : )


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## Gavril

marsbeing said:


> I see. Thanks for the information, Gavril. : )



I just rephrased it as a question because I'm not absolutely sure I've heard this pronunciation. 

I have heard it in similar-sounding words, though: _helppo _("easy") pronounced as ['heləppo], or _terve_ ("healthy, hello") pronounced as ['terəve].


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## marsbeing

No worries. 

Since DrWaston was the first and only native speaker of Finnish in this thread, I transliterated the word based on the pronunciation he provided. That being said, it's interesting to note that there may be other ways of pronouncing the word. Thanks! : D


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## DrWatson

Gavril said:


> In some people's pronunciation, would you hear a short vowel sound between the "l" and the "k"? (I.e., ['piləke])


A short vowel, yes, but not a schwa (even though in Finnish grammar tradition this phenomenon is called _svaavokaali_). It's usually the same vowel as in the preceding syllable. So yes, in some dialects it would be more like ['pilike] or ['pilike] instead of ['pilke].


Gavril said:


> I have heard it in similar-sounding words, though: _helppo _("easy") pronounced as ['heləppo], or _terve_ ("healthy, hello") pronounced as ['terəve].


I'm quite sure _terve_ never gets the epenthetic vowel. It only applies to some consonant clusters that begin with either /l/ or /h/ and (sometimes) the clusters /nj/, /rj/ and /nh/.


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## Gavril

DrWatson said:


> I'm quite sure _terve_ never gets the epenthetic vowel. It only applies to some consonant clusters that begin with either /l/ or /h/ and (sometimes) the clusters /nj/, /rj/ and /nh/.



Well I do recall hearing this pronunciation at some point, though perhaps I'm confusing it with something else. 

What phonological restriction would prevent this process from applying to -_rv_-, but allow it to apply to -_lp_- and -_rj_-?


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## DrWatson

Gavril said:


> What phonological restriction would prevent this process from applying to -_rv_-, but allow it to apply to -_lp_- and -_rj_-?


This is a thing I once actually set out to explore myself. To this day I don't recall seeing a systematic overview of it, but maybe I just haven't found the right one yet.

I noticed that both of the two main environments where the epenthetic vowel appears (i.e. clusters of the type _lC_ and _hC_) have their own restrictions. In the former one, there won't be a "svaavokaali" if the subsequent consonant is dental/alveolar, which rules out combinations _lt_, _ln_, and _ls_. In the latter one, the second consonant can't be plosive. This rules out _ht_, _hk_ and _hd_. Granted, we still have _rj_, _nj_ and _nh_ left, but it does account for the majority of the cases.

It seems to be slowly coming to some _rC_-clusters as well. I've heard people sporadically uttering or even writing e.g. _karakki_ instead of _karkki_ 'candy'.


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## Gavril

DrWatson said:


> In the latter one, the second consonant can't be plosive. This rules out _ht_, _hk_ and *hd*.



I definitely remember hearing a vowel inserted in the cluster -_hd_-. In the tape that accompanied my old Finnish textbook, there was a line of dialogue with the phrase _yhden hengen huone, _where _yhden_ sounded trisyllabic.


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## DrWatson

Gavril said:


> I definitely remember hearing a vowel inserted in the cluster -_hd_-. In the tape that accompanied my old Finnish textbook, there was a line of dialogue with the phrase _yhden hengen huone, _where _yhden_ sounded trisyllabic.


In some dialects (Southwestern, Häme and Southern Ostrobothnian dialects) the *d* in the written language (in cases where it is the successor of the older /δ/) is pronounced as /r/ or /ɾ/. Maybe he said something like [yhyɾen]?


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## Gavril

DrWatson said:


> In some dialects (Southwestern, Häme and Southern Ostrobothnian dialects) the *d* in the written language (in cases where it is the successor of the older /δ/) is pronounced as /r/ or /ɾ/. Maybe he said something like [yhyɾen]?



I just listened to the clip again, and it sounds more like a "d" to me than [ɾ]. I'll send you an mp3 of it if you want to confirm.


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## Gavril

Gavril said:


> I'll send you an mp3 of it if you want to confirm.



It looks like I can't put attachments in private messages, so here is the relevant clip: View attachment yhdenhengenhuone.mp3.


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## Maabdreo

Gavril said:


> It looks like I can't put attachments in private messages, so here is the relevant clip.


Better that you shared it with everyone anyway so we can follow the interesting conversation...


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## DrWatson

I'm sorry, I can't hear the epenthetic vowel. If there were one, it should be quite clearly audible. This one may be more like [yɦden] where the /h/ is actually realised as [ɦ] because it occurs between voiced sounds.


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## Gavril

DrWatson said:


> I'm sorry, I can't hear the epenthetic vowel. If there were one, it should be quite clearly audible.



Why? It could be a very short vowel sound ([yɦyden] or similar).



> This one may be more like [yɦden] where the /h/ is actually realised as [ɦ] because it occurs between voiced sounds.



Maybe the vowel sound is pronounced simultaneously with the [ɦ].


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## Gavril

Gavril said:


> Why? It could be a very short vowel sound ([yɦyden] or similar).



After many re-listens, I'm not completely sure if there is a vowel between "h" and "d" in this word, but I still find it very surprising that this epenthesis pattern would apply to clusters such as -hr- and -rj-, but never to -hd- (yhden) or -rv- (terve).


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