# German equivalent of the English gerund



## Johnnyjohn

*Moderator note: Split from here.*

<...>

If I may also ask, I hear the gerund/participle can't really be used in german the same as in English. I was told to reword a sentence such as "I don't like him ordering me around. "I am proud of winning" and "Coming here was great". 

But doesn't German have a present participle and gerund? Or has it disappeared in colloquial language?


----------



## berndf

Contrary to English, German has not grammaticalized the _-ung/-ing_ form and also hasn't merged it with the present participle. The present participle is still constructed with -_end-  _(_the runn*ing* child = das lauf*end*e Kind_ = Old English _þæt rinnende cild_) as in Old English and also still uses the infinitive where modern English uses the gerund: _I am proud of winning = Ich bin stolz zu siegen._


----------



## Schimmelreiter

Johnnyjohn said:


> If I may also ask, I hear the gerund/participle can't really be used in german the same as in English. I was told to reword a sentence such as "I don't like him ordering me around. "I am proud of winning" and "Coming here was great".
> 
> But doesn't German have a present participle and gerund? Or has it disappeared in colloquial language?


We do have a present participle but we don't have continuous forms of tenses. So while we do have _das singende Kind, _we don't have _*Das Kind ist singend.
_
Nouns can be nominalised: _Running is healthy. - __Laufen ist gesund.
_
We often avoid nominalising, though:_ I like playing tennis. - Ich spiele gerne Tennis _is heard more frequently than _Ich mag Tennisspielen _(except in an enumeration of hobbies). 


Your sentences:

_I don't like him ordering me around. - Ich mag es nicht, wenn er mich herumkommandiert.
_
_I am proud of winning. - Ich bin stolz darauf, dass ich gewonnen habe.
_
_Coming here was great. - Es war großartig hierherzukommen._


----------



## Hutschi

We can say "das Kind ist singend umhergesprungen." Here it might be kind of gerund.

How is this in English?
Is it a gerund construction?

The construction is not general.
It works for
"Er kam kauend/essend/singend aus der Küche".
But it does not work for
*"Er kochte naschend." - for example


----------



## Schimmelreiter

Hutschi said:


> It works for
> "Er kam kauend/essend/singend aus der Küche".
> But it does not work for
> *"Er kochte naschend." - for example


Why not?
Noch nie naschend gekocht?
What's the difference between _Er kam kauend/essend/singend aus der Küche _and _Er kochte naschend_?


----------



## Hutschi

It is the verb; er kam vs. er kochte ...
In my feeling the construction with verbs of movement is much more common.
But there is a contrary example: Er schlief schnarchend.

I do not know exactly what is wrong with "er kochte naschend" - may be "kochen" is a general verb and "naschen" a special verb.
I would say "Er naschte beim Kochen."
May be: "Er kochte, dabei immer wieder naschend."
It seems to be that the times are not commensurable without restriction.
Would you say "Er kochte naschend."?

I do not see a problem with "Suppe naschend kochte er."


----------



## ablativ

Hutschi said:


> We can say "das Kind ist singend umhergesprungen." Here it might be kind of gerund.
> 
> How is this in English?
> Is it a gerund construction?
> 
> The construction is not general.
> It works for
> "Er kam kauend/essend/singend aus der Küche".
> But it does not work for
> *"Er kochte naschend." - for example



In my opinion, all these examples belong to the category of present participle constructs rather than gerunds.

Gerunds in German are "Verbalsubstantive" (*substantivierte Verben*): (Das) *Rauchen* ist hier verboten!

Edit: "Verbalsubstantiv" is actually a wrong expression in this context. See "das missbrauchte Verbalsubstantiv".


----------



## berndf

Hutschi said:


> We can say "das Kind ist singend umhergesprungen." Here it might be kind of gerund.


No, German has no gerund. As I said, the German functional equivalent is the infinitive, see my and Ablativ's examples.

There is an etymological equivalent, the _-ung_ suffix but that is not grammaticalized in German. Words with this suffix are lexicalized. It means roughly the same as the suffix _-tion_. Example: _umleiten = to deviate_; _Umleit*ung* = devia*tion*_.


----------



## Gernot Back

Johnnyjohn said:


> But doesn't German have a present participle and gerund? Or has it disappeared in colloquial language?


Of course we have both, a present participle and a gerund, even in colloquial language, why shouldn't we? They are two different forms and shouldn't be confused, neither in English nor in German! The gerund is a nominalised verb and has nothing to do whatsoever with a present participle, a verb form used as an adjective.



GermanEnglishverb:singento  singgerund:das Singensingingpresent participle:singendsingingverb:tanzento dancegerund:das Tanzendancingpresent participle:tanzenddancing

So the question is not whether German has lost one of these forms, the question is rather whether English hast lost one of these forms!


----------



## berndf

A gerund is a verbal noun different from the infinitive. German does not have that, at least not a grammaticalized one.


----------



## ablativ

berndf said:


> There is an etymological equivalent, the _-ung_ suffix but that is not grammaticalized in German words with this suffix are lexicalized. It means roughly the same as the suffix _-tion_. Example: _umleiten = to deviate_; _Umleit*ung* = devia*tion*_.


This is a good example for a "Verbalsubstantiv". (See my post #7)


----------



## bearded

Apropos Ersatz für gerund/participle im Deutschen:  es fällt mir ein ( seltener ) sprachlicher Gebrauch ein:  'sie kam gelaufen' (she came running).  Ich denke, es sei bedeutungsmäßig das Gleiche wie 'sie kam laufend'.


----------



## Schimmelreiter

bearded man said:


> 'sie kam gelaufen' (she came running). Ich denke, es sei bedeutungsmäßig das Gleiche wie 'sie kam laufend'.


Bedeutungsmäßig ist es das Gleiche.

Die Struktur ist interessant. "gelaufen" und "laufend" werden hier adverbial gebraucht. Das kann im Englischen wohl nicht der Fall sein, sonst hieße es ja _*She came runningly._


----------



## Hutschi

ablativ said:


> In my opinion, all these examples belong to the category of present participle constructs rather than gerunds.
> 
> Gerunds in German are "Verbalsubstantive" (*substantivierte Verben*): (Das) *Rauchen* ist hier verboten!
> 
> Edit: "Verbalsubstantiv" is actually a wrong expression in this context. See "das missbrauchte Verbalsubstantiv".



Hi, I exchanged the function and the formal grammatical form.
So I analysed the usage of the English gerund and searched how to express this.

The question for me is:
Do you want to know how to express an English gerund with an analogous German form or  do you search for an English grammaticalized gerund?

Is English Gerund really only a noun?

I think in German there are some forms and you can translate in very different ways.


----------



## Hutschi

Schimmelreiter said:


> Bedeutungsmäßig ist es das Gleiche.
> 
> Die Struktur ist interessant. "gelaufen" und "laufend" werden hier adverbial gebraucht. Das kann im Englischen wohl nicht der Fall sein, sonst hieße es ja _*She came runningly._



I think it is very different.

"Sie kam gelaufen." is not "Sie kam laufend".
Sie kam laufend. = idiom - She came again and again. This blocks the other meaning, if there is no context.
_Sie kam laufend_ in the sense _sie kam gelaufen_ is not used in this form.
However it is possible to say _Sie kam rasch laufend aus dem Wald. = Sie kam rasch aus dem Wald gelaufen. (with an additional context) 
_


----------



## berndf

Hutschi said:


> Is English Gerund really only a noun?


Yes.


----------



## Schimmelreiter

Hutschi said:


> This blocks the other meaning, if there is no context.


You are absolutely right. I took bearded man's sentences to be formal grammar examples, which he meant them to be, I believe.


----------



## berndf

Schimmelreiter said:


> Die Struktur ist interessant. "gelaufen" und "laufend" werden hier adverbial gebraucht. Das kann im Englischen wohl nicht der Fall sein, sonst hieße es ja _*She came runningly._


Adverbial gebrauchte Partizipien (auch ohne _-ly_) sind eigentlich auch im Englischen nichts ungewöhnliches: _Walking through the snow, he thought again and again of what old Will Donahue had said in the last weeks of his life. _(Craig Rice)


----------



## Schimmelreiter

berndf said:


> Hutschi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is English Gerund really only a noun?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes.
Click to expand...

That's what it originally was: _I like the playing of tennis._
In modern English, however, the gerund can also take objects: _I like playing tennis.
_
So, quoting Hutschi: Is it _really_ only a noun?


----------



## Schimmelreiter

berndf said:


> Adverbial gebrauchte Partizipien (auch ohne _-ly_) sind eigentlich auch im Englischen nichts ungewöhnliches: _Walking through the snow, he thought again and again of what old Will Donahue had said in the last weeks of his life. _(Craig Rice)


Bin jetzt nicht so firm, aber ich hätt nicht gedacht, dass die englische Grammatik _Walking through the snow_ als adverbial auffasst. Ich hätte eine solche _non-absolute participle group _eher in einer Kategorie mit _relative clauses _gesehen (zum Unterschied von _absolute_ _participle groups, _deren adverbiale Natur ins Auge sticht: _Weather permitting, I'll go to the beach_).


----------



## berndf

Schimmelreiter said:


> In modern English, however, the gerund can also take objects: _I like playing tennis._


The gerund phrase _playing tennis_ still is a noun, or noun phrase, to be precise. The phrase is the (direct) object of the sentence. By its nature, the gerund is a verb form (that is what "grammaticalized" means in this context). Its, syntactic function is that of a noun, like the infinitive. By contrast the syntactic function of a participle is that of an adjective; supplemented by adverbializations (see example above) and nominalizations (_the mourning need consolation_).


----------



## Johnnyjohn

So let me get this straight, there are no verbs taking gerunds nor can you combine a preposition with an -ung word, and using verbal nouns (I don't like him/his telling me what to do) is avoided but it exists, right?

Sorry, I am new to linguistics and I have a hard time wondering why those example sentences had to be retranslated.


----------



## Schimmelreiter

berndf said:


> The gerund phrase _playing tennis_ still is a noun, or noun phrase, to be precise.


I promise this is my last attempt at getting it. I'm trying hard. 

Permit me to recapitulate. Hutschi asked, _Is English gerund really only a noun? _Your answer was, _Yes._ 

As per your post #21, _playing tennis_ is a gerund phrase _aka_ noun phrase composed of two nouns (as _playing_ is a gerund and, hence, a noun and _tennis_ is a noun, too). How can a noun take a noun as an object? 

I used to think of gerunds as being similar to photones, which possess properties of waves *and* particles, i.e. I thought gerunds had properties of nouns *and* verbs.


----------



## berndf

Schimmelreiter said:


> Bin jetzt nicht so firm, aber ich hätt nicht gedacht, dass die englische Grammatik _Walking through the snow als adverbial auffasst. Ich hätte eine solche non-absolute participle group eher in einer Kategorie mit relative clauses gesehen (zum Unterschied von absolute participle groups, deren adverbiale Natur ins Auge sticht: Weather permitting, I'll go to the beach)._


Da stehe ich ein wenig auf dem Schlauch. _Absolut _ist eine semantische und _adverbial _eine syntaktische Kategorie. Ich verstehe nicht, warum die Frage, ob _walking through the snow_ absolut ist oder nicht einen Einfluss auf hat, ob die Gruppe adverbial ist?


----------



## Johnnyjohn

"I don't like him ordering me around. "I am proud of winning" and "Coming here was great". 

So why can't I say them as: 

Das Kommen hier war gut.

Ich bin stolz (insert correct preposition) das gewinnen.

Ich mag sein herumkommandierten mich nicht./ Ich mag ihn herumkommandiertend(inflection?) mich nicht.

I am sorry for asking so much but I just want to gain a better understanding of definitions in linguistics. 

The last one is ambiguous in English though, it could either be a participle or gerund. The "Ordering me around" can be an adjective of sorts describing the "him" or it can be a verbal noun. I use the verbal noun though with a possessive to avoid ambiguity.


----------



## berndf

Schimmelreiter said:


> I used to think of gerunds as being similar to photones, which possess properties of waves *and* particles, i.e. I thought gerunds had properties of nouns *and* verbs.


We obviously understood Hutschi's "only" differently.

I understood his question as: "Does the gerund always have the syntactical function of a noun or can it also have other functions like, say, an adjective?"
You understood his question as: "Is the nature of the gerund only that of a noun or is it also a verb?"

I am still not quite sure who understood him correctly.


----------



## Johnnyjohn

My question _is _is what is so different between German and English herein and why German can't use gerunds the same way as in English.


----------



## Schimmelreiter

berndf said:


> Da stehe ich ein wenig auf dem Schlauch. _Absolut _ist eine semantische und _adverbial _eine syntaktische Kategorie. Ich verstehe nicht, warum die Frage, ob _walking through the snow_ absolut ist oder nicht einen Einfluss auf hat, ob die Gruppe adverbial ist?


Ich meine _absolut_ syntaktisch (vgl. ablativus absolutus). 


_Weather permitting, I'll go to the beach. 
Weather permitting _ist eine _absolute participle group_ (Im Lateinischen wär's ein abl.abs.). Klar, man kann die Gruppe als einen Konditionalsatz vertretend auffassen _(wenn es das Wetter erlaubt)_, man kann sie aber auch adverbial sehen (natürlich auch mit konditionaler Bedeutung): _bei geeignetem Wetter/_wörtlich: _bei es erlaubendem Wetter


Walking through the snow, he thought again and again of what old Will Donahue had said in the last weeks of his life.

Walking through the snow _ist eine _participle group_, aber eben keine absolute, da sie kein eigenes Subjekt enthält. Man kann sie als attributiv auffassen: _He, walking through the snow, thought again and again of what old Will Donahue had said in the last weeks of his life._

Man kann _Walking through the snow_ auch als einen Nebensatz vertretend auffassen, aber ich seh da nichts Adverbiales, außer Du siehst einen (in diesem Fall temporalen) Nebensatz als ein Adverbiale: _As/While he was walking through the snow, ..._


----------



## Johnnyjohn

If you use this thread to debate instead of helping me out, then I will be quite cross. Fine lemme throw something in. 

English permits SS raising, Object raising, and Subject raising, which I believe cannot be done in standard German. Is the use of a gerund in some situations an absence or dropping of a verb? Ex:

I find running to be good.
= I find running-good.

As for German you have the sentence:
Es ist leicht zu tun. This may look like subject raising but I consider the infinitive a gerundive and not a shifting. And the amount of verbs can be counted with one hand that do this.

So combining the gerund is an abbreviation or a different technique, is it or isn't it?

To add: This may show English syntax is regaining some complexity again after it lost so much once; adverbs of frequency also have a rule where they must come before the main verb too, so some stuff is coming back.


----------



## Schimmelreiter

Johnnyjohn said:


> "I don't like him ordering me around. "I am proud of winning" and "Coming here was great".
> 
> So why can't I say them as:
> 
> Das Kommen hier war gut.
> 
> Ich bin stolz (insert correct preposition) das gewinnen.
> 
> Ich mag sein herumkommandierten mich nicht./ Ich mag ihn herumkommandiertend(inflection?) mich nicht.
> 
> I am sorry for asking so much but I just want to gain a better understanding of definitions in linguistics.
> 
> The last one is ambiguous in English though, it could either be a participle or gerund. The "Ordering me around" can be an adjective of sorts describing the "him" or it can be a verbal noun. I use the verbal noun though with a possessive to avoid ambiguity.


We would have to say sentences like _*Ich mag sein Michherumkommandieren nicht._ We simply don't.


----------



## berndf

Schimmelreiter said:


> ...außer Du siehst einen (in diesem Fall temporalen) Nebensatz als ein Adverbiale: _As/While he was walking through the snow, ..._


Ja, natürlich. Ein Nebensatz hat ja eine Funktion im Hauptsatz; und welche außer adverbial käme denn hier in Frage?

Abgesehen davon, verstehe auch immer noch nicht, was das mit dem Absolut zu tun hat. Ob diese _phrase _auch eine _clause _ist, hängt doch nicht davon ab, ob sie absolut ist oder nicht. So einfache syntaktische Merkmale, wie im Lateinischen gibt es im Englischen ja nicht. Ein Absolut ist morphologisch nicht gekennzeichnet und er kann sehr wohl auch ein eigenes Subjekt haben (_His accomplice distracting her, the pick-pocket stole her purse_). Darum halte ich im Englischen den Absolut für eine rein semantische Kategorie.

In deinem umgestellten Satz (_He, walking through the snow, thought..._) zeigen die Kommas auch deutlich an, dass die Partizipialgruppe adverbial und nicht attributiv ist. Die Verbindung zum Subjekt ist rein semantisch und nicht syntaktisch.


----------



## Gernot Back

Schimmelreiter said:


> Man kann _Walking through the snow_  auch als einen Nebensatz vertretend auffassen, aber ich seh da nichts  Adverbiales, außer Du siehst einen (in diesem Fall temporalen) Nebensatz  als ein Adverbiale: _As/While he was walking through the snow, ..._


Als was sollte man es denn sonst ansehen, wenn nicht als Adverbiale?


Schimmelreiter said:


> We would have to say sentences like _*Ich mag sein Michherumkommandieren nicht._ We simply don't.


I do! What should be wrong with it?


----------



## Johnnyjohn

Gernot Back said:


> I do! What should be wrong with it?




Excellent, German now has something English has, they got a pseudo-progressive and now this. What next? The will have tones?
English speakers won't evolve their language complicated (I mean, no gender yeah, but why not measure words) and German having nearly everything now is rustling my jimmies. Whose fault is this? I want English to be as cool as German.


----------



## Schimmelreiter

Gernot Back said:


> Als was sollte man es denn sonst ansehen, wenn nicht als Adverbiale?


Danke, wieder was gelernt. Mit meiner Lateingrammatikfolie, die ich über Deutsch und Englisch drüberlege, hätte ich mir das nicht gedacht.




Gernot Back said:


> I do! What should be wrong with it?


Sorry for the premature _we._


----------



## berndf

Johnnyjohn said:


> My question _is _is what is so different between German and English herein and why German can't use gerunds the same way as in English.


What more can I say, we've simply never developed the English gerund with all its flexibility. The capitalized infinitive (_Schwimmen macht Spass ~ swimming is fun_) acts as a lexicalized noun and doesn't have the power of the gerund forming non-finite clauses.

If you want to construct clauses, you can use the ordinary, non-lexicalized infinitive like in English:
_We are proud to have won the match ~ Wir sind stolz, das Spiel gewonnen zu haben._
In English you have the additional possibility to use the gerund: _We are proud having won the match_. We have no equivalent in German. The _-ung _form is a lexical noun and does not have the power to take on object.

Your example _I don't like him ordering me around_ is a specialty. It is a variation of what is called an ACI (accusativus cum infinitivo) in Latin grammar an exists in both, English and German, too. I said variation, because the infinitive can be replaced by the gerund (_I don't like him to order me around ~ __I don't like him ordering me around_) But this type of construction is limited to certain verbs and German is more restrictive. You can use the ACI only with verbs of perception (Ich hörte das Auto beschleunigen ~ I heard the car accelerate/accelerating). You sentence would need some rephrasing to be directly translatable:
_I don't like it that/if he orders me around = Ich mag es nicht, dass/wenn er mich herumkommandiert._


----------



## Johnnyjohn

I see thanks, one more thing. What say you of the possibilities to raise subject, objects, s-s in German? Am I correct in that they are more limited or even nonexistent as I hypothesized?


----------



## ablativ

bearded man said:


> Apropos Ersatz für gerund/participle im Deutschen:  es fällt mir ein ( seltener ) sprachlicher Gebrauch ein:  'sie kam gelaufen' (she came running).  Ich denke, es sei bedeutungsmäßig das Gleiche wie 'sie kam laufend'.



Zum einen hat _sie kam laufend _eine völlig andere Bedeutung (vielleicht kann man es mit _she kept coming_ übersetzen [?]) als _sie kam gelaufen; _zum anderen wäre die Bedeutung, die dir vorschwebt (_she came running) _ohne einen weiteren Zusatz wie z.B. _sie kam rennend *die Treppe herunter *_vielleicht nicht ganz ungrammatisch, aber sicher nicht idiomatisch.

_Sie kam gelaufen _ist eine ganz spezielle Konstruktion, die nur mit dem Verb "kommen" gebildet wird. 

Der Duden schreibt dazu: 





> "_Kommen verbindet sich mit dem Partizip II von intransitiven Verben der Fortbewegung u. Ä. zu Verbalkomplexen eindeutig telischer Aktionsart: Das Kind kam ins Zimmer gerannt."
> 
> _


Also: Der Bus kommt angefahren, das Kind kommt angerannt, der Frühling kommt übers Land gezogen, der Fisch kommt geschwommen, das Paar kommt angetanzt ...

Das Partizip II (Perf.) übernimmt hier die Funktion eine Adverbs.

Telische Aktionsart: ein Ziel, ein Ende beinhaltend


----------



## berndf

Johnnyjohn said:


> I see thanks, one more thing. What say you of the possibilities to raise subject, objects, s-s in German? Am I correct in that they are more limited or even nonexistent as I hypothesized?


Raising exists in German but I think it is more limited than in English.

An example where it works in both languages:
_He appears to leave the building ~ Er scheint das Gebäude zu verlassen._

Here are examples (from Wikipedia) where it works in English but not in German:
_Fred wants us to help._
_That proves him to be hiding something._
_She predicts there to be a problem._
If I am not mistaken, these examples are all related to the greater flexibility to construct ACIs in English than in German.


----------



## Gernot Back

Johnnyjohn said:


> Excellent, German now has something English has, they got a pseudo-progressive and now this..


I can't see any progressive aspect in 


> Ich mag sein Michherumkommandieren nicht.


It's a gerund, a nominalised verb or a deverbal noun, however you want to put it, but it is definitely *not* a _progressive form_, neither is

_I don't like *his *ordering me around_​ 
in English!


----------



## Schimmelreiter

@ Gernot Back

All you are saying is of course correct (no progressive). What I'm now going to say is not related to progressive, which simply doesn't exist as an independent form in German, but please permit me to point out that you changed the TO's

_I don't like *him* ordering me around.

_to

_I don't like *his *ordering me around.

_thereby dramatically changing its structure.

Whilst, in the former, _ordering_​ is a present participle, it's a gerund in the latter.




@ berndf
@ Gernot Back

You both explained that _Walking through the snow_, as a participle group, was adverbial in _Walking through the snow, he thought again and again of what old Will Donahue had said in the last weeks of his life.

_Do you also say this of the participle group _ordering me around _in _I don't like him ordering me around_? Is this participle group also adverbial?

In my mind it's clearly attributive, qualifying _him._


----------



## bearded

Hallo ablativ
Danke für Deine interessante Erklärung unter # 37.


----------



## Hutschi

I put my details into the text.


Johnnyjohn said:


> "I don't like him ordering me around. "I am proud of winning" and "Coming here was great".
> 
> So why can't I say them as:
> 
> Das Kommen hier war gut. - It would be _"Das Hierherkommen war gut." - This is possible, but mostly we avoid noun style. So it becomes "Hierherzukommen war gut."
> "Coming here"  may have two meanings, as far as I see.
> 1. The fact (the result) 2. the way.
> 2. It would be - "der Weg hierher war gut." or "Die Fahrt hierher war gut."_
> 
> Ich bin stolz *auf das Gewinnen*. possible but only used in special context. Example;  Ich mag das Gewinnen und nicht das Verlieren.
> 
> Ich mag sein *H*erumkommandie*ren* nicht. This is possible, and it is used. / Ich mag ihn *mich herumkommandierend *nicht. Possible - but in most context bad style.
> Er lief immer mich herumkommandierend durch die Wohnung.
> The problem is that the participle with "end" is seldom used.
> When I was 6 years old, I overgeneralized it and tried to use it like a gerund to express a progressive form. But I got bad results this way.
> I am sorry for asking so much but I just want to gain a better understanding of definitions in linguistics.
> 
> The last one is ambiguous in English though, it could either be a participle or gerund. The "Ordering me around" can be an adjective of sorts describing the "him" or it can be a verbal noun. I use the verbal noun though with a possessive to avoid ambiguity.



The German sentenced are:
Ich bin stolz auf den Sieg.
Hierher zu kommen war klasse/gut.
Ich mag sein Herumkommandieren nicht.
(Coll. and pejorativ - Ich mag sein Herumgekommandiere nicht. - This is a strange colloquial form.)

When you translate a gerund form, it will mostly be a verb and sometimes a noun.


----------



## Johnnyjohn

I see the "Ich bin stolz auf Das Gewinnen" translate more to "I am proud of the win". English sometimes transforms verbs into nouns distinct from gerunds but it is not productive. This is common for most indo-euro languages I suppose.

For the "coming here sentence" an article would change the meaning into either of those two "The coming here" vs "Coming here"

As for this "bad style" would you say that they are like pronominal adverbs in English, in that these forms are possible but rare to the same or similar degree?


----------



## Hutschi

Indeed I would say that these forms are rare but I cannot compare it to the situation in English, because I do not feel the English form as bad style.

The forms are possible in some context, but you can seldom use the participle form alone and isolated.

*Ich bin schwimmend. - In a certain sense it is not completely wrong but it is not used isolated in a main clause.
But you can use it as adjective: "der im Fluss schwimmende Baum." or as apposition: "Der Baum, im Fluss schwimmend, stößt gegen eine Brücke." This is strange because it is an abbraviation for "Der Baum, der im Fluss schwimmend ist". 
The abbreviation is valis, but the whole thing not. (They would understand you, however.)
But if you want a semantic equivalent (this is what I understood first)  you can say "Ich schwimme gerade."

We can say - there is no syntactical equivalent, but a semantic one. 
There are some sets of phrases which are similar, but not fully equivalent.

One strange form are some phrases which are similar:

Die Veranstaltung ist am Laufen. 
Herr Meier ist am Arbeiten.
Beim Schmieden verletzte er sich die Hand.
Here we have prepositions (rather than the postposition "ing".)

Semantically they are rather equivalent.

In our cases the distinction between verb and noun are purely by syntax, not by semantics.


----------



## ablativ

Schimmelreiter said:


> _I don't like *him* ordering me around.
> _to
> _I don't like *his *ordering me around.
> _thereby dramatically changing its structure.
> Whilst, in the former, _ordering_​ is a present participle, it's a gerund in the latter.



Trotz schwacher Englischkenntnisse meinerseits folgende Überlegung, die aber völlig daneben sein kann:
_
I don't like him to treat me like a fool: *AcI *(im Englischen); Ich mag nicht, *dass *er mich wie einen Idioten behandelt.

I don't like him treating me like a fool: Ich mag nicht, *wie *er mich ... behandelt; Adverbiale Bestimmung der Art u. Weise

I don't like his treating me like a fool: Ich mag sein Behandeln ... nicht; Gerundium aufgrund des Possessivpronomens, nach dem ja nur ein Nomen stehen kann.
_


----------



## Hutschi

Hi, 
I do not think that "Ich mag sein Behandeln nicht" is acceptable German style.
It would be "Ich mag die Art und Weise nicht, mich als Narr zu behandeln.

We are catched in the translation process.
What is the purpose here?
I do not think that the purpose of a translation is to keep all the grammatical structures.
The only purpose of such an experiment may be to understand the difference of the forms.

There is no strict difference between noun and verb in a nonsyntactical sense.


----------



## Johnnyjohn

Hutschi,

The Ich bin Schwimmend seems to seem more along the lines of "I am(exist) swimming" rather than a true progressive being used in combination with tenses for certain situations, so I got what you be saying. Those am+infinitive can't seem to be combined with the perfect, can they? And combined with the future, I have not seen that ever done outside of someone posting an example of what it may look like, and even he admitted it sounded awkward like the passive progressive perfect did in English to most of us. (I have gotten/been/become being ____)


----------



## Hutschi

Hi, these forms can be used - but actually they are not used:
Ich bin schwimmend. present
Ich war schwimmend. past 
Ich werde schwimmend sein. future

They are only used connected with additional content. Stand allone you can understand them but they are in very bad style.

Er wird, schwimmend im Fluss, das andere Ufer erreichen.
Er erreicht das andere Ufer, im Fluss schwimmend.
Er erreichte, schwimmend im Fluss, das andere Ufer.

Such sentences are possible and used.
(The sequence of phrases may change, I gave examples.)
In these sentences "schwimmend" takes the (semantic) time of the main verb (erreichen).


----------



## Johnnyjohn

Thanks but could you answer if the am+infinitives and those forms can be combined with the perfekt? 

He will having swum in the water, reach the bank.
He has reached the other bank by swimming in the water.
He had, by swimming in the water, reached the bank. 
(You can even double the perfect in two of these: I have/had, having swum in the water, reached the other bank")


----------



## Hutschi

Hi, they can be used in following way:

*Er war am Schwimmen, als er das andere Ufer erreichte. (Would be possible, but in my feeling it is bad style. I think it is blocked by semantics. When you reach the bank you cannot swim.) 
Ossibble is "Beim Schwimmen erreichte er das andere Ufer."
Er war am Ertrinken, als er das Ufer erreichte. (This is possible.)
Er ist am Ertrinken, als er das Ufer erreicht. (This is possible. It is a special story telling style.)

With future it is used very seldom.

There is an additional form "beim + Infinitive noun"
Beim Arbeiten erlitt er einen Schock.
When working he suffered a shock. (I am not sure if this English sentence is correct.)

The "beim" phrase is also a progressive form. It requires context what happend during this time.


----------

