# The Gallic shrug vs. the 'oh là là' gesture: are they viewed as typically French?



## geve

Hello forum,

An English forer@ has been mentioning to me how a gesture called *the "Gallic shrug" *was viewed as typical of the French, to the point that one only needed to do this gesture while making nasal sounds and everyone would understand they're mimicking a French person. 
Here is the description of a Gallic shrug, or there. I guess we could call it the _bof_ gesture too. Edit: see details about the gallic shrug in my post #7.

On the other hand, I once discussed the topic of typical French gestures with French language learners living in France and coming from a variety of countries (no British among them though) and they showed me a gesture that - from their everyday contact with French natives - struck them as typically French. I call it *the oh là là gesture*, and even though I hadn't thought of it in the first place and it is a lot less advertised on resources for tourists or French learners, I reckon it's a very common gesture here.
Here is the gesture they meant.

I eventually came up with the hypothesis that the Gallic shrug is a widespread stereotype about the French, and the oh là là gesture a less known but real typical French tic; and I would like to have your opinions on this. So my question is twofold:

1. In your country, *is any of these gestures readily associated with the French?*

2. *For those of you who live or have lived in France, have you noticed any of these two gestures being used a lot?* (sometimes it's hard for a native to tell what's really used!!)


[This thread is about these two gestures and how they can symbolize the French in other countries, either as a stereotype or as a real habit, but for other gestures and countries, you might be interested by these previous threads: French gestures, Hand Gestures and Misunderstandings, Out of curiosity - Gestures and beliefs, gesture for money in your culture , does this gesture exist in France (shaking head for no), Paralinguistics/body language, Use of middle finger outside US, Tongue click for "no", Attracting attention in a restaurant]


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## JamesM

I think the first gesture (the Gallic shrug) would be readily identified as French, particularly if it was accompanied by a throaty sound of some kind.  The "throatiness" is something that American stereotypes of French always include, much like doing a Maurice Chevalier impression (probably the most iconic image of a Frenchman in 20th Century U.S. culture.) The pouting lower lip is also part of that image.

The second gesture, although I've personally seen it used by the French, isn't something that would immediately identify them as French, in my opinion. There's a similar Italian gesture, I think. 

I've only enjoyed eight wonderful days in France in my entire life, last September. I didn't see much of the shrug, although it did occur, especially when someone was puzzled or confused by circumstances. For example, we were waiting for a Batobus along the Seine and a boat went by that a French person thought should have stopped to pick us up. (It wasn't a batobus, but they thought it was.) They turned to us and did that shrug, with a smile, as if to say, "What happened there?" 

I saw a lot more of the "oh-la-la" gesture, used to mean all sorts of things, "That's expensive! That's wonderful! That was stupid! That was dangerous!" It seems to be a universal gesture.  The sound of "oh-la-la" is quintessentially French, though, with or without the gesture. All you have to do to indicate "French" to most Americans is say, "Oo-la-la" (we say, "oo", not "oh", when we're imitating the French, but when I hear the French say it, it sounds more like "oh").


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## Antpax

Hi,

I would not associate these gestures to French people as they are widely used in Spain, mainly the second "gallic shrug" you linked.

Cheers.

Ant


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## geve

JamesM said:


> I think the first gesture (the Gallic shrug) would be readily identified as French, particularly if it was accompanied by a throaty sound of some kind.  The "throatiness" is something that American stereotypes of French always include, much like doing a Maurice Chevalier impression (probably the most iconic image of a Frenchman in 20th Century U.S. culture.) The pouting lower lip is also part of that image.


So it works with US Americans too then... I'm not sure what you mean by "throaty sounds" though.  Do you mean a deep voice, or nasal vowels, or R sounds?



JamesM said:


> I saw a lot more of the "oh-la-la" gesture, used to mean all sorts of things, "That's expensive! That's wonderful! That was stupid! That was dangerous!" It seems to be a universal gesture.


By "universal" do you mean it can be used for many things, or that it's used everywhere?

(By the way, here's a thread on "oh là là" in the French-English forum.)



Antpax said:


> I would not associate these gestures to French people as they are widely used in Spain, mainly the second "gallic shrug"


Thanks Antpax. So the "gallic" in "gallic shrug" is abusive then! What about the oh là là gesture? Is it used in Spain too?


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## ireney

Well if you say "oh là là" yes  If not no, I wouldn't really since we use both gestures ourselves although the second one much more rarely than the first (I am judging by the pictures/links you've posted by the way since I am unfamiliar with the terminology about gestures I'm afraid)


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## JamesM

geve said:


> So it works with US Americans too then... I'm not sure what you mean by "throaty sounds" though.  Do you mean a deep voice, or nasal vowels, or R sounds?


 
Here's a clip from "Gigi". At the very beginning of the clip, Mr. Chevalier says the line, "I was on time!" There's a throatiness to it that is very typically French to me. I suppose I should qualify that; it's a typically French sound for males. For females, there is a fluty, sing-song sound to their voices that isn't like any other language I've heard. Not all French women have it, but many that I've met do.

http://www.reelclassics.com/Audio_V...gi_chevalier_gingold_irememberitwell_clip.mp3

I suppose I should qualify that; it's a typically French sound for males, as my stereotyped image of them goes. I can't think of a modern French actor who has that throatiness, other than perhaps Jean Reno. For females, there is a fluty, sing-song sound to their voices that isn't like any other language I've heard. Not all French women have it, but many that I've met do. It's a wonderful combination of lower and upper registers at the same time. 


In the song "Be Our Guest" from Disney's "Beauty and the Beast", the actor/singer is doing the stereotypical French character voice for Americans (scroll down to music samples):

http://www.amazon.com/Beauty-Beast-...3748024?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1179945020&sr=1-7




> By "universal" do you mean it can be used for many things, or that it's used everywhere?
> 
> (By the way, here's a thread on "oh là là" in the French-English forum.)


 
I mean that it is used for many things by the French, at least in my limited exposure to it. I haven't traveled enough in France to say it's used everyhere. You probably know better than I do if it is.


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## geve

I apologize - it seems my description of the gallic shrug was inaccurate.  Apparently the arms play a crucial part in the game. So a gallic shrug is: a shrug + a pout + the two hands downwards with palms open.
Here are a few links to illustrate the gesture: 1, 2, 3, 4.

Thanks for the explanation James, I get what you mean now (the links were especially helpful).


ireney said:


> Well if you say "oh là là" yes  If not no, I wouldn't really since we use both gestures ourselves although the second one much more rarely than the first (I am judging by the pictures/links you've posted by the way since I am unfamiliar with the terminology about gestures I'm afraid)


I didn't know the terminology either - I only just discovered the word "gallic shrug" yesterday - and I'm gallic!


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## JamesM

Here are a few more images of the shrug.  The first one shows a great full-body image of one variation of the shrug.  The second one illustrates the pouty mouth perfectly:

http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200410/r33166_82344.jpg
http://www.parisist.com/attachments/parisist_bridget/shrug.jpg


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## ireney

Thanks James  Yes we definitely have those two in our repertoire of body gestures (truth to tell there are very few body gestures NOT in the Greek repertoire  )


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## curly

Hello,

 we have this shrug here also, it sort of says, "hey, don't look at me, I don't know..". With an horrible French accent, it gives the impression of French culture being more liberal than others, Every time I see this imitation it makes me think of a joke about an American prude and a French pimp, the punch line escape me, but the shrug comes across as a sort of, "Mais oui,  biensûr, pourquoi pas???" Old stereotypes die hard.


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## Qcumber

geve said:


> An English forer@ has been mentioning to me how a gesture called *the "Gallic shrug" *was viewed as typical of the French, to the point that one only needed to do this gesture while making nasal sounds and everyone would understand they're mimicking a French person.
> Here is the description of a Gallic shrug, or there. I guess we could call it the _bof_ gesture too. Edit: see details about the gallic shrug in my post #7.]


I have seen it in many countries. Everywhere it expresses doubt.


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## Qcumber

geve said:


> *the oh là là gesture*, and even though I hadn't thought of it in the first place and it is a lot less advertised on resources for tourists or French learners, I reckon it's a very common gesture here.
> Here is the gesture they meant.


I have seen children do it in Provence, including by a girl from Toulouse (South-West of France) who'd say "boudie!"  Do adults do it?


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## Qcumber

JamesM said:


> http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200410/r33166_82344.jpg


This gesture is universal. It means: "I swear I didn't do it (on purpose)." etc.


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## Qcumber

JamesM said:


> For example, we were waiting for a Batobus along the Seine and a boat went by that a French person thought should have stopped to pick us up. (It wasn't a batobus, but they thought it was.) They turned to us and did that shrug, with a smile, as if to say, "What happened there?"


By sheer chance, I rode the batobus you are talking about on Monday, and I didn't see any French passenger on it. Only tourists ride it. The only French persons on board were the pilot, and the stewardess. Are you sure the person was French?


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## JamesM

Qcumber said:


> By sheer chance, I rode the batobus you are talking about on Monday, and I didn't see any French passenger on it. Only tourists ride it. The only French persons on board were the pilot, and the stewardess. Are you sure the person was French?


 
Yes, We were there during "les jours du patrimoine" and there were thousands of French tourists from all over France in Paris that weekend. It was actually a fantastic time to visit because so many of the buildings were open to the public that are not normally open (the French Senate, for example) and there were free concerts and free tours of museums, and special fares (two days for the price of one on the Batobus, for example.)  We happened to arrive there on this special weekend by accident, but I'd go back at the same time any year. 

The reason I think the person was French because he spoke to someone later on the Batobus in French and it sounded native to me. That's conjecture, I know, but that's the best I can offer. Also, he made a sound that was definitely not English to go along with the gesture, sort of like "bouf!"


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## JamesM

Qcumber said:


> This gesture is universal. It means: "I swear I didn't do it (on purpose)." etc.


 
I agree that the gesture is universal. Children here will pull it on their parents (although the pouty lip and the puff of air don't go along with it, usually.) 

It just seems that it's used by the French for more things than just "I swear I didn't do it." It's also used for, "What can you do?" or "I have no idea" or "What were you expecting?" or "who would have guessed"? Actually, there's a gesture used by Italian Americans that looks very similar to this, but the sound that accompanies it is very different, sort of a nasal, "ahhhh".  It can be a greeting, an offer of peace, or a question.  

I'm not saying it's _exclusively _French, but that it's _typically_ French.


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## Antpax

geve said:


> Thanks Antpax. So the "gallic" in "gallic shrug" is abusive then! What about the oh là là gesture? Is it used in Spain too?


 
Hi geve,

Yes, it is also used with several porpouses: when someone is in trouble, just to give the impression something important or very bad has happened, when you are in a big pain, and I supposse some more I cannot remember.

Cheers.

Ant


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## geve

So why do you reckon this gesture was called the gallic shrug in the first place, if it is used in other countries? I would venture a guess that the gesture acts as a symbol of (stereo)typical French attitude in general - the _bof_ attitude, le français râleur, arrogant, jamais content... your typical French guy. 





Qcumber said:


> I have seen children do it in Provence, including by a girl from Toulouse (South-West of France) who'd say "boudie!"  Do adults do it?


Yes, adults use it. I'm not sure what you mean by "boudie" though - maybe some kid's talk made from the verb "bouder"? But that wouldn't fit with the meaning of the gesture...


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## Teafrog

Gallic = French or typically French (of the Gauls), says my concise Oxford dict.

I think ‘le shrug Gallic’ , is a very stereotypical French gesture. “Oh là là”, IMO, is less so common as a gesture and used more frequently as an amusing verbal parody. The Thierry Henri (?) gesture given by JamesM is a perfect example of the gesture.

Should a person, in the UK, combine this Gallic shrug (google 'Gallic shrug" and you will get tons of returns, which proves it is a universal expression) with a pseudo “French nasal sound”, s/he would have, in my view, the archetypal French parody. The whole thing is done 'tongue in cheek' and is not meant in an insulting way.

The sound: Imagine for a moment that you are an English speaker and that you don't know a thing about the French language.
When you hear someone talk French, all you would hear is a jumble of unintelligible words and sounds that an English throat and mouth would not be able to imitate at all. A lot of these sounds would come from the French words with "in" “an" "on" etc in them, which simply do not exist in English.
So an English speaking person would actually hear is a wall of sound with lots of “on on on”, or as the English would say jokingly “hon hon hon” as they can’t say the sound without placing an “h” in front.

I’m not sure if the “*French shrug + hon hon hon*” works with non-English speakers, as other foreigners might have their own takes on the French (c’est à voir). Note that the extra H is required (in English, at least), as Brits cannot say the “on” sound on its own. Note that the "hon hon hon" must be said 'à la française', with short sounds, rather than ‘elongated’ English ones…

This gesture (and ‘verbal portrayal) is done 'almost every time' someone in the UK wants to parody, mimic or caricature a Frenchman/woman, that’s all they have to do: a Gallic shrug and utter “hon hon hon”, for good measure. 

Could the same be said for people in Australia and the USA? It would be good to have some input from these quarters (hint hint…)


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## PhilFrEn

The "oh là là" is definitely well know here in Germany, people always fool me with this one . But not as a gesture, only as a sentence, as Teafrog described it also.

"oh là là, you're not happy!" or "oh là là, that's bad!".

Each time I have to concentrate no to laugh, hearing that with the sweet accent of my girlfriend is brilliant .


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## nichec

geve said:


> Hello forum,
> 
> An English forer@ has been mentioning to me how a gesture called *the "Gallic shrug" *was viewed as typical of the French, to the point that one only needed to do this gesture while making nasal sounds and everyone would understand they're mimicking a French person.
> Here is the description of a Gallic shrug, or there. I guess we could call it the _bof_ gesture too. Edit: see details about the gallic shrug in my post #7.
> 
> On the other hand, I once discussed the topic of typical French gestures with French language learners living in France and coming from a variety of countries (no British among them though) and they showed me a gesture that - from their everyday contact with French natives - struck them as typically French. I call it *the oh là là gesture*, and even though I hadn't thought of it in the first place and it is a lot less advertised on resources for tourists or French learners, I reckon it's a very common gesture here.
> Here is the gesture they meant.
> 
> I eventually came up with the hypothesis that the Gallic shrug is a widespread stereotype about the French, and the oh là là gesture a less known but real typical French tic; and I would like to have your opinions on this. So my question is twofold:
> 
> 1. In your country, *is any of these gestures readily associated with the French?*
> 
> 2. *For those of you who live or have lived in France, have you noticed any of these two gestures being used a lot?* (sometimes it's hard for a native to tell what's really used!!)
> 
> 
> [This thread is about these two gestures and how they can symbolize the French in other countries, either as a stereotype or as a real habit, but for other gestures and countries, you might be interested by these previous threads: French gestures, Hand Gestures and Misunderstandings, Out of curiosity - Gestures and beliefs, gesture for money in your culture , does this gesture exist in France (shaking head for no), Paralinguistics/body language, Use of middle finger outside US, Tongue click for "no", Attracting attention in a restaurant]


 
Dear geve:
Oh, I'm thrilled to read (and reply to) this thread (Et ca fait long temps...J'espere que tout est bien)

1. Yes, they are readily associated with the French by my friends. whenever I do that, they'll be like: 'Oh! not that French thing again!" But then, there are many things they deem as "being French" in USA, at least among my close friends, including always wearing black, drinking mineral water, walking a lot......As for the Taiwanese, they don't know much about these things, so there's no association whatsoever.

2. Yes, I see them all the time whenever I'm in Paris, including my years as a student there. Actually, my French teacher, who's a very beautiful and kind French lady, did that all the time as I can remember. And I also notice that the French do love to say: "c'est pas ma faute!" (even when I have absolutely no intension whatsoever to blame them). The "oh la la" thing is my personal favorite, I use it all the time myself, it just sounds so funny


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## Qcumber

JamesM said:


> The reason I think the person was French because he spoke to someone later on the Batobus in French and it sounded native to me. That's conjecture, I know, but that's the best I can offer. Also, he made a sound that was definitely not English to go along with the gesture, sort of like "bouf!"


OK. A special day with plenty of French people out. Yes, from what you say, he must have been French.


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## Qcumber

geve said:


> Yes, adults use it. I'm not sure what you mean by "boudie" though - maybe some kid's talk made from the verb "bouder"? But that wouldn't fit with the meaning of the gesture...


I asked her (learned) mother what "boudie" meant, and she said it was a local version of "bon Dieu" with the value of "mon Dieu!" (Oh my God!) - "bon Dieu" being a rude expletive.


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## geve

Teafrog said:


> Gallic = French or typically French (of the Gauls), says my concise Oxford dict.


The Gallic shrug must be something that English speakers (or at least part of them) view as typically French since they had to coin a term for that... The gallic shrug even appears in the entry for "gallic" in the WRD.



nichec said:


> 1. Yes, they are readily associated with the French by my friends. whenever I do that, they'll be like: 'Oh! not that French thing again!" But then, there are many things they deem as "being French" in USA, at least among my close friends, including always wearing black, drinking mineral water, walking a lot......As for the Taiwanese, they don't know much about these things, so there's no association whatsoever.
> 
> 2. Yes, I see them all the time whenever I'm in Paris, including my years as a student there. Actually, my French teacher, who's a very beautiful and kind French lady, did that all the time as I can remember. And I also notice that the French do love to say: "c'est pas ma faute!" (even when I have absolutely no intension whatsoever to blame them). The "oh la la" thing is my personal favorite, I use it all the time myself, it just sounds so funny


Nice to see you Nichec.  Your remark about drinking water made me laugh: during my stays in the USA I was indeed nicknamed "the water girl".  So, do your comments apply to both gestures? Do you reckon they're both used by the French and associated with the French? Is there one that is or is viewed more typical of the French?



Qcumber said:


> I asked her (learned) mother what "boudie" meant, and she said it was a local version of "bon Dieu" with the value of "mon Dieu!" (Oh my God!) - "bon Dieu" being a rude expletive.


Oh, I see - it's like "boudiou" - an interjection typical of South of France indeed.


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## Teafrog

The "Gallic shrug" is so universal that it is found in the Standard English dictionary (Eng-Eng) as well as on the Net. A Google search for it has yielded - in record time I might add: "Results 1 - 10 of about 18,700 for "Gallic shrug". (0.06 seconds)".

Newspapers in the UK can have headlines with 'gallic shrug' in them (sometimes, the articles have with no bearing with France whatsoever!) and do not require any form of explanation whatsoever, as it is instantly recognisable as being quintessentially French and fully understood by everyone.

Add a few pseudo French 'throaty sounds' to Le Shrug, and you have an instant 'winner’. 
This is much more than "coining a phrase", it is now part of the English vocabulary! Well, I can only speak of GB, and not for Australia and the USA…


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## geve

Teafrog said:


> This is much more than "coining a phrase", it is now part of the English vocabulary! Well, I can only speak of GB, and not for Australia and the USA…


Well sure, but before it made its way into the dictionary, the phrase needed to be coined, didn't it?

(I think this calls for an EO thread.)


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## LV4-26

Listening to the samples, I finally understood what you people meant by "throaty sound".
Actually, that sound is typically *Parisian*. Maurice Chevalier had a very strong Parisian accent and so has the person who sings in _Be Our Guest.

_I can easily imagine both of them say_ : Ça, c'est Paname, mon pote ! _with that specific tone of voice.

Come to think of it, I'm beginning to wonder whether that sound is purely and simply idiosyncratic to Maurice Chevalier alone. 
I mean I think I only ever make that sound when I want to mimick that guy.


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## geve

LV4-26 said:


> Come to think of it, I'm beginning to wonder whether that sound is purely and simply idiosyncratic to Maurice Chevalier alone.
> I mean I think I only ever make that sound when I want to mimick that guy.


Maybe to non-native ears it can sound as illustrating well their perception of how French language sounds...? It seems to me that what makes Maurice Chevalier's voice specific is a combination of *huskiness* (which could be related to the R sound that English speakers will especially notice) and exaggerated *nasal sounds* (like a Parisian could do).


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## ernest_

Interestingly, I don't find any of these gestures to be arrogant at all. However, we have an expression in Catalonia that is "to say goodbye the French way", and it means to leave the place _without_ saying goodbye, which is pretty (but not extreme) bad manners.


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## LV4-26

About the arm gesture (with or without the shrug), as in Thierry Henri's pic, it can mean different things.

- confusion
What do you mean?
I'm totally confused
I haven't got a clue
This is extremely mysterious

- powerlessness or related feelings
It wasn't my fault.
Don't ask *me.*
There's nothing I can do about it
What can be done?
That's the way the cookie crumbles.

The gesture will remain just about the same but the facial expression may be different.


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## Adasta

The Gallic Shrug exemplifies something of the "annoying French attitude" to me (an Englishman). I know it can mean "I don't know" or something similar (the English shrug and say "dunno" if we don't know something), but it also seems to highlight the French ability to annoy by being extremely passive, as if they simply could not change the situation.

If the Gallic Shrug was expressed in words (in this instance), then I think it would say "I could help you, but it's not really my problem, is it?"



ernest_ said:


> we have an expression in Catalonia that is "to say goodbye the French way", and it means to leave the place _without_ saying goodbye, which is pretty (but not extreme) bad manners.



The same exists in English: "To take French leave".

For example, if one was invited to a dinner party, and left without saying goodbye, one would be "taking French leave".


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## Teafrog

ernest_ said:


> Interestingly, I don't find any of these gestures to be arrogant at all. However, we have an expression in Catalonia that is "to say goodbye the French way", and it means to leave the place _without_ saying goodbye, which is pretty (but not extreme) bad manners.



I also do not find 'Le Gallic Shrug' arrogant at all > just hilarious and so full of meaning, especially when the whole body is put behind it, 'à la Thierry Henri' as it were. When the "hon hon" throaty sounds are added, it really becomes unbeatable!
Hence the world famous 'gallic shrug'…

LV4-26 is correct, Maurice Chevalier may well have started it, but to an English ear - especially one that doesn't understand a word of the French language - "eet sooonds ol ze saïm" . And so this 'special sound' has stuck to all French speakers now.
Having said this, you can apply this 'logic' to all languages (and ears) 
Take, for instance, the French view of the English language: to an untrained ear it sounds like a wall of "ow" sound and English 'wet' R's. But it is not a gesture…

And yes, we also say "to take French leave", as Adasta explained. I do not, however, find the 'gallic shrug' annoying - just entertaining. I use it myself from time to time: a gesture is worth a thousand words, in this case.
(Before anyone jumps up, I know the expression is "a picture is worth…")

So many expressions with the 'French' tag! Why is that, I wonder…?
I think I can guess what the French forum legions  are going to say about this: "hon hon hon" 

just teasing


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## Qcumber

Teafrog said:


> And yes, we also say "to take French leave", as Adasta explained.


The French say: "filer à l'anglaise". So ...


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## Teafrog

Qcumber said:


> The French say: "filer à l'anglaise". So ...



  I had forgotten about that one! What a great expression 
Although to me, it has a somewhat lighter connotation than "to take French leave" (can't put my finger on the reason…).


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## chics

Hello!

I think the first gest is universal, the second one is widely used in Spain -I'd say more than in France- and all the south of Europe. I never would associate any of them of French people in particular.

The word "Oh la la".. of course! And moreover when it's "Oh la la la". Also, there is their intonation -the accent always at the end of a sentence- and R pronuntiation.

If you cherche a visual characteristic... well, perhaps French people gesticulate more than others with their mouth, when talking. But I couldn't guess if a person is French o not only by it!

PS: I think the singer (Maurice Chevalier?) would be great singing tangos.


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## JamesM

geve said:


> Maybe to non-native ears it can sound as illustrating well their perception of how French language sounds...? It seems to me that what makes Maurice Chevalier's voice specific is a combination of *huskiness* (which could be related to the R sound that English speakers will especially notice) and exaggerated *nasal sounds* (like a Parisian could do).


 

That's a good possibility. 

I'm at work, so I can't hear this sound clip, but I have the soundtrack on my I-Pod and this song is a great example of that same throatiness (with the rolled "r") that is stereotypically French-sounding to us, only sung by a female. (I don't think the singer is French, though; I believe she's Italian.) Anyway, it gives another view of the "typically French" sound for Americans. Is this also an imitation of a Parisian accent?


The sound clip can be found if you scroll down the following page and look for "Ah, Paree!":

http://www.amazon.com/Follies-Conce...563644?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1180124740&sr=8-12


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## Qcumber

Teafrog said:


> I had forgotten about that one! What a great expression
> Although to me, it has a somewhat lighter connotation than "to take a French leave" (can't put my finger on the reason…).


To me whether English, French or Spanish the expressions always imply
the same reproach.


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## chics

But it seems that these gestures only seem French to people in GB and USA, isn't it?


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## Teafrog

chics said:


> Hello!
> 
> I think the first gest is universal, the second one is widely used in Spain -I'd say more than in France- and all the south of Europe. I never would associate any of them of French people in particular.



Do you mean what we, in the UK at least, call the 'gallic shrug' is universally recognised as French, or that this type of shrug is universally used (and recognised, with its meaning) around the world?
And do you mean the "oh là là" idiom/phrase is more widely used in Spain than in France?


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## JamesM

chics said:


> But it seems that these gestures only seem French to people in GB and USA, isn't it?


 
nichec is from Taiwan and says that it is also associated with the French, in her opinion.

The gesture is used widely.  I don't think anyone is saying it's the property of the French.    It is something typically French according to our French stereotype.  Americans use this gesture, too, and wouldn't call it French unless it was accompanied with "French sounds" of some kind.  If someone did the shrug and said, "who, me?"  it would look very American (except for the pouty lip - that doesn't fit my expectations from an American.   )  

I think the best we can do when discussing stereotypes is to say whether or not something seems consistent with the stereotype.


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## chics

> Do you mean what we, in the UK at least, call the 'gallic shrug' is universally recognised as French?
> And do you mean the "oh là là" idiom/phrase is more widely used in Spain than in France?


 
Yes, universally used, isn't it?
I talked about the gestures, the "oh la la" word is French, of course.


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## chics

JamesM said:


> The gesture is used widely. I don't think anyone is saying it's the property of the French.  It is something typically French according to our French stereotype.


 
Of couse. I mean it seems that it's only an English stereotype... Like, for example, for us is tea and _flema_ for the English; but I bet than Chinese people don't agree whith that...


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## JamesM

chics said:


> Of couse. I mean it seems that it's only an English stereotype... Like, for example, for us is tea and _flema_ for the English; but I bet than Chinese people don't agree whith that...


flema? phlegm?

It could be that the shrug is typically French only for English speakers. That's an interesting thought, although nichec's comments don't seem to bear that out. I can accept that it's definitely _not_ typically French for you and possibly for all Spaniards.  It makes sense that stereotypes for groups would change from country to country.  I don't think we've had enough input to make it exclusively an English-based stereotype of the French.


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## geve

JamesM said:


> nichec is from Taiwan and says that it is also associated with the French, in her opinion.
> 
> The gesture is used widely. I don't think anyone is saying it's the property of the French.  It is something typically French according to our French stereotype.


Well, Nichec talked about her friends in the USA - she said there was no association whatsoever for the Taiwanese.  But I agree we cannot say for sure that the gallic shrug stereotype works exclusively with English speakers.

I agree with what you're saying about the gallic shrug fitting with the stereotype that one can have. That's what I said earlier:


geve said:


> I would venture a guess that the gesture acts as a symbol of (stereo)typical French attitude in general - the _bof_ attitude, le français râleur, arrogant, jamais content... your typical French guy.


You call this shrug "gallic" because it represents an attitude at which the French seem particularly good. 
What is funny is that this stereotypical image seems to be shared by British and US Americans. It's as if the language had created the stereotype...


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## LV4-26

JamesM said:


> [...]I don't think the singer is French, though; I believe she's Italian.) Anyway, it gives another view of the "typically French" sound for Americans. Is this also an imitation of a Parisian accent?


She's French all right. And Parisian, too. Again, that sounds like an imitation of Maurice Chevalier, to me. Not especially the accent, but the throaty sound and the 'r's.
I may be wrong but I suspect many French singers who want to make an international career, especially in English speaking countries, tend to sing like Maurice Chevalier, probably because he was so successful thanks to his (supposedly) typical accent.


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## JamesM

geve said:


> Well, Nichec talked about her friends in the USA - she said there was no association whatsoever for the Taiwanese.


 
Good catch! Sorry, I missed that. Interesting! So it's only confirmed for US and UK, just as chics was saying.



> I agree with what you're saying about the gallic shrug fitting with the stereotype that one can have. That's what I said earlier:
> 
> You call this shrug "gallic" because it represents an attitude at which the French seem particularly good.
> What is funny is that this stereotypical image seems to be shared by British and US Americans. It's as if the language had created the stereotype...


 
I wonder if we inherited our "image" of the French from the UK. 

I've been thinking a lot about French stereotypes. We actually have several. By NO means am I saying that any of these are accurate. They are just caricatures that show up in all sorts of places.

There is "the French lover", a suave, sophisticated, impeccably dressed, highly cultured continental who speaks in low, rich murmurs.  There are more than a few current French actors who fit this image.

There's the "French maid" - sexy bimbo who's unbelievably attractive and very frisky. 

There's the Gauloise-smoking, apathetic Frenchman who barely moves in response to a question (and, for some reason, is usually pictured wearing a white shirt with large blue horizontal stripes, like a sailor.  I've never understood the origin of the shirt.)

There's the energetic French trapper or explorer from our days of expansion - lusty, strapping, big-bearded, hearty, the "lumberjack" type.

There's the Parisian woman - elegantly dressed, even for the most menial tasks or insignificant errands, pampering some tiny dog and walking on impossibly high heels.

There's the Frenchman from the small village - happy, boisterous, plump, generous, dramatic, gesturing, bustling.

Just for the record, I didn't see _anyone_ in France who reminded me of any of these stereotypes. (Well, a few of the Parisian women were pretty stunningly dressed, but no more than people you'd see in New York or Beverly Hills. There _were_ an awful lot of small dogs in Paris with very attentive owners, though.  )


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## chics

JamesM said:


> So it's only confirmed for US and UK, just as chics was saying.


I really don't know... it would be interesting to know in which countries (or languages!?) it's like that.

Your idea of inheritage is very interesting, too.


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## geve

JamesM said:


> Just for the record, I didn't see _anyone_ in France who reminded me of any of these stereotypes.


Because stereotypes don't exist in real life  - at best, they are dramatizations of inclinations, but you will rarely find someone who will fit the sketch perfectly. Our brain associates words with pictures, and stereotypes are mental images required by the brain. The same is true at an individual level. Say the name of one of my relatives and it will raise unconsciously a mental image, a sort of caricature that is not - that cannot be fully accurate or comprehensive. That does not mean that my understanding of the person is limited to a few simple characteristics, only that these are the traits that come more readily to my mind.



JamesM said:


> I wonder if we inherited our "image" of the French from the UK.


Maybe the fact that there is a term for a thing makes the thing more tangible for the mind... (At this point I am not sure at all that I'm making any sense!!)


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## JamesM

geve said:


> Because stereotypes don't exist in real life  - at best, they are dramatizations of inclinations, but you will rarely find someone who will fit the sketch perfectly.


 
I was aware of this, geve.  I was simply hoping to stave off any assumption on anyone's part that I put any stock in these stereotypes.

If anything, the one thing I noticed on a widespread basis was that the French people I met, in general, seemed more reserved than I expected them to be.  That was a mild surprise.


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## geve

JamesM said:


> I was aware of this, geve.  I was simply hoping to stave off any assumption on anyone's part that I put any stock in these stereotypes.


I know - I was merely introducing my idea that an existing turn of speech might help shape a mental image. Sorry if it comes out a bit fuzzy - ce qui se conçoit mal s'énonce obscurément.


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## Teafrog

JamesM said:


> I've been thinking a lot about French stereotypes. We actually have several. By NO means am I saying that any of these are accurate. They are just caricatures that show up in all sorts of places.
> 
> There is "the French lover", a suave, sophisticated, impeccably dressed, highly cultured continental who speaks in low, rich murmurs.  There are more than a few current French actors who fit this image.
> 
> There's the "French maid" - sexy bimbo who's unbelievably attractive and very frisky.
> 
> There's the Gauloise-smoking, apathetic Frenchman who barely moves in response to a question (and, for some reason, is usually pictured wearing a white shirt with large blue horizontal stripes, like a sailor.  I've never understood the origin of the shirt.)
> 
> There's the energetic French trapper or explorer from our days of expansion - lusty, strapping, big-bearded, hearty, the "lumberjack" type.
> 
> There's the Parisian woman - elegantly dressed, even for the most menial tasks or insignificant errands, pampering some tiny dog and walking on impossibly high heels.
> 
> There's the Frenchman from the small village - happy, boisterous, plump, generous, dramatic, gesturing, bustling.
> 
> Just for the record, I didn't see _anyone_ in France who reminded me of any of these stereotypes. (Well, a few of the Parisian women were pretty stunningly dressed, but no more than people you'd see in New York or Beverly Hills. There _were_ an awful lot of small dogs in Paris with very attentive owners, though.  )



Et……… le béret?!? Où est le béret dans tout ça?
Hein?
Very well observed, JamesM, but … you left out the essential part! 
(read this 'à la Maurice Chevalier') 

PS: Oh oh, I had forgotten this was an English only post – so sorry.
I noticed, with some sadness, that the ‘Gallic beret’ was completely absent from the list. I personally regard this piece of ‘clothing’ the epitome of stereotypes, although some might disagree…


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## Punky Zoé

Teafrog said:


> Et……… le béret?!? Où est le béret dans tout ça?
> Hein?
> I noticed, with some sadness, that the ‘Gallic beret’ was completely absent from the list. I personally regard this piece of ‘clothing’ the epitome of stereotypes, although some might disagree…


Is the 'Gallic béret' a trade mark in your country ?

In France, nothing gallic in the béret, it is called "béret basque" (in spite of being originally from Béarn - the adjoining country - not from the Basque Country ).
And we do have a museum of the béret !


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## Teafrog

Punky Zoé said:


> Is the 'Gallic béret' a trade mark in your country ?
> 
> In France, nothing gallic in the béret, it is called "béret basque" (in spite of being originally from Béarn - the adjoining country - not from the Basque Country ).
> And we do have a museum of the béret !


Yes, it is the trade mark of France . It tickles me that French people are learning about the their 'trademarks' via 'us lot'. Mind you, I had to understand the English stereotypes by going abroad: bowler hat (chapeau melon ), cup of tea with uplifted pinky, pin-stiped suit, etc.)…
Facscinating web site (if you're into bérets ) - thanks. Look what I found in it; this should answer your own Q:
[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Aujourd'hui, les caricaturistes se servent du béret pour représenter le français typique avec la baguette et le litre de rouge. Étant un élément qui s' inscrit au plus profond de la tradition, il a également cette représentation dans l' imagerie des touristes étrangers qui le trouvent singulier. Mais c' est aussi souvent chez eux la coiffure des snobs et il est distingué de porter le béret "noir" à l' étranger pour se donner un "air français". Et cet "air français", c' est tout ce que la France a de positif, ce qu' on lui envie, ce pourquoi on l' aime et ce pourquoi on veut toujours l' imiter, loin de ses frontières.
 oh là là [/FONT]


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