# Kill time



## ThomasK

I had asked about how you refer to spending and wasting time elsewhere in AL, but I'd like to focus on another aspect of time: killing time.

Sometimes it seems like a burden, or an irritating animal perhaps, as we can say in Dutch: 
- _de tijd *doden*_: to *kill *time (which seemed common in some European languages, as appeared from some of the answers in the previous thread)
- _de tijd *verdrijven*_: to *drive *it *away*
-_ tijd *doorbrengen*_: *pass *(the) time -but that is quite common, I believe - or to *spend *time

So what other expressions do you have for that concept?


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## DearPrudence

Hi Thomas!

In *French* as well we "*kill *time":
*"tuer le temps"
*or "*pass *it":
*"passer le temps*


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## ThomasK

Mais donc pas _chasser_? (Ciao e grazie !) In fact, does tuer remind you of wild animals, or any other living thing ?


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## apmoy70

In Greek:

«Σκοτώνω *[1]* τον χρόνο *[2]* μου»
/sko'tono ton 'xrono mu/
lit. "to kill/killing the time of mine"

*[1]*Byzantine and Modern Greek verb «σκοτώνω» (sko'tono)--> _to kill_, deriving from the Classical verb «σκοτόω/σκοτῶ» (skŏ'tŏō [uncontracted]/skŏ'tō [contracted])--> lit. _to darken, blind, make dark_, metaph. _to kill_. PIE base *skot-, _dark, shade_.
*[2]*Masculine noun «χρόνος» ('xronos)--> _time, year_, deriving from the Classical masculine noun «χρόνος» ('xrŏnŏs)--> _time, year_, with obscure etymology (a couple of suggestions for it: 1/ From the PIE base *dher-, _hold_; 2/ from the PIE base *gre-/*ger-, _to age, ripen_)


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## ThomasK

I wonder how we get to this killing. Can anyone tell me/us what the underlying vision of time here is ?


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## Tamar

In Hebrew, like in French:

להרוג זמן  laharog zman = to kill time

And also simply: להעביר את הזמן le-ha'avir et ha-zman = to pass the time

To waste time would be לבזבז זמן le-vazbez zman


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## ThomasK

So the killing turns up again and again. Could the 'beasty' character of time refer to Chronos devouring people (as opposed to Kairos), Apmoy? I suddenly think I have read about people being 'devoured' by time, but... I am not so sure...


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## apmoy70

You've read Aristotle, haven't you? 
Aristotle (I think in his "Constitution of the Bottiaeans") suggests that Kronos=Chronos (Chronos devours people just like Kronos devoured his sons and daughters).
But I think Aristotle (and Plato, and Plutarch and many ancient Greek philosophers) are prone to paretymological approach.


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## ThomasK

I had not, believe it or not, I just thought of a parellel as the metaphor seems to imply some resemblance between time and with a wild animal (or god ?). But I am not so sure I understand you well: "Kronos" (time) is not to be equated to "Chronos" (the god)? Sorry, if I am mistaken. 

But paretymology is so... very human, isn't it? I think even our metaphors (and language for that) are somehow so very human: we think of abstract things starting from concrete things, as Lakoff pointed out, and thus reduce complexity by referring to our physical perception, which to me seems the only analogy we could use. I mainly wondered about why we use something like 'time', and always worry about paretymology or folk etymology! ;-)


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## jazyk

> In *French* as well we "*kill *time":
> *"tuer le temps"
> *or "*pass *it":
> *"passer le temps*


Same in Portuguese: matar o tempo, passar o tempo.


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## kloie

in estonian=aega surnuks lööma
in german= die Zeit totschlagen
in croatian=utucati vrijeme
in persian=vaght gozarandan


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## DearPrudence

kloie said:


> in estonian=aega surnuks lööma
> in german= die Zeit totschlagen
> in croatian=utucati vrijeme
> in persian=vaght gozarandan


Thank you, kloie  But what are the literal translations?  Do they all use the expression "to kill time"?


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## kloie

german
die zeit=time
totschlagen=to beat to death
estonian
aega=time
surnuks=to the death
lööma=to beat
persian
vaght=time
gozarandan=to pass
croatian
vrijeme=time
utucati=It's derived from _tući_, so it's sort of like 'beating time to death'.


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## snoopymanatee

Hello,

In Turkish also, we "*kill time*".

*Zaman öldürmek.*


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## ThomasK

So time like an animal and time like a tunnel, somehow?


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## snoopymanatee

ThomasK said:


> So time like an animal and time like a tunnel, somehow?



Like an animal or something alive.

_*Dün iyi zaman öldürdük.*_ --> _*We killed too much time yesterday.*_

_*Dün kazara bir köpek öldürdük.*_ --> _*We killed a dog accidentally yesterday.*_


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## 涼宮

In Spanish it also uses ''kill',* matar* (el) tiempo. 

In Japanese you say 時間を*つぶす* jikan wo tsubusu /ʤikan o tsu'busu/ = to crush/to smash/to block/to shut down time.


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## ThomasK

Just one extra question: when you use those verbs, what kind of 'thing' must time be ? Some kind of a building?


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## 涼宮

Time (jikan) is a noun, wo marks the accusative case. You can smash (つぶす) pretty much everything, things, people and time, a noun. But I don't know the historical reason why tsubusu is used for time and not 殺す korosu (to kill). nevertheless, some people indeed say jikan wo korosu in Japanese.


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## ThomasK

But then blocking and shutting do seem to refer to houses as well, don't they ?


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## 涼宮

Of course  what happens is, that in Japanese there are verbs that can even have 13 different meanings. Tsubusu will change its meaning depending on context. 

For instance:

事件は彼女の面目をつぶした. jiken wa kanojo no menboku wo tsubushita. The scandal brought her to shame. lit: as regard to the scandal/event her reputation was crushed.

Tsubusu can also mean ''to put paid to'' when it comes to plans and wishes. And also ''to wash out'' talking about rain and storms.


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## ThomasK

I see... I did not realize those verbs could have that broad meanings. Thanks !


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## terredepomme

What's important to ask here is if these expressions were simultaneously developped in different languages or originally an expression of a particular language(French or English) that spread to others.
For example the Japanese word 時間 is a modern word so it couldn't predate the European equivalents of this expression.
Although there is the expression 暇つぶし where 暇 is like "spare time." 
Also in Korean we say 시간때우기 or literally "filling up, making up for" time but we also use the English word 타임킬링(time killing).
So it's highly likely that for non-European languages like Hebrew or Turkish to have adopted the expression from French or English.
My theory is that most of these expressions are directly from the French one which we see from 1504( http://www.expressio.fr/expressions/tuer-le-temps.php )  or from the English one which is attested in 1728 ( http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=kill ), probably from French.


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## ThomasK

Interesting theory, and not implausible. It might be true indeed that even metaphors, or well, expressions, are copied. 

In fact all the questions I am asking very often have to do with metaphors, and seeing whether they are different - supposing they might betray aspects of a different worldview.


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## Selyd

In Ukrainian:
губити, загубити, згубити час  /huby'ty, zahuby'ty, zhuby'ty chas/ it is vain to expend
струювати час /stru'yuvaty chas/ approximately to destroy


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## apmoy70

ThomasK said:


> I had not, believe it or not, I just thought of a parellel as the metaphor seems to imply some resemblance between time and with a wild animal (or god ?). But I am not so sure I understand you well: "Kronos" (time) is not to be equated to "Chronos" (the god)? Sorry, if I am mistaken.


I apologise for not responding earlier, I honestly, did not see your reply!
«Κρόνος» ('kronos) is the god, or rather, the father of the ancient Greek gods who devoured his children (in Latin, _Cronus_).
«Χρόνος» ('xronos or chronus) is time, who-according to Aristotle-like «Κρόνος» devours people.


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## ThomasK

No problem, Apmoy. So there is no link between the two, they are quite different, aren't they? I simply thought the god symbolised time, the way Apollo can be said to stand for reason.


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## Encolpius

*Czech *zabít čas (killing time)


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## ThomasK

I now realize we also fill time, as in Korean, though not that stylish. So time can also be like an *empty hole*, or something, that one can fall into... (And if you fill time, you can't fall into it...)
 Another is *besteden*, which is like spending (on):it is like *money*! ;-) (_Hoe besteed je je (vrije) tijd?_ - How do you spend your (free) time)? BUT implying as well: what do you spend it on? )


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## ilocas2

Czech:

*zabít* (perf.) / *zabíjet* (imperf.) *čas* - to kill time


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## 810senior

涼宮 said:


> In Spanish it also uses ''kill',* matar* (el) tiempo.
> 
> In Japanese you say 時間を*つぶす* jikan wo tsubusu /ʤikan o tsu'busu/ = to crush/to smash/to block/to shut down time.



In addition to it, we'd say 暇をつぶす _hima wo tsubusu_ meaning to crush free time(_hima _refers to a time when you can spend out as you want it to do)


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## ThomasK

in what contexts do you normally use this verb? With what kind of objects/food? What does time look like based on this verb?


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## SuperXW

In Chinese (simplified):

消磨时间 (written style) - to wear down or fritter away time

打发时间 (written or colloquial) - to send away or dismiss time

耗时间 (colloquial) - to consume or waste time


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## ThomasK

To send away time is new to me. Time like a burden ?

_[I am off for a couple of days. Will only be in touch after Monday]_


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## SuperXW

ThomasK said:


> To send away time is new to me. Time like a burden ?


Sure, like you said at the beginning.
If we can so cruelly kill it, why not just send it off, being nicer to the time and yourself?


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## Messquito

SuperXW said:


> In Chinese (simplified):
> 
> 消磨时间 (written style) - to wear down or fritter away time
> 
> 打发时间 (written or colloquial) - to send away or dismiss time
> 
> 耗时间 (colloquial) - to consume or waste time



I don't know about China, but in Taiwan, besides 消磨时间 and 打发时间, the direct translation 殺時間 is also widely used here, which is highly likely a loanword from English.
殺＝kill
Also, 耗時間 sounds somewhat negative to me, which I wouldn't consider "killing time" because it gives a sense of "wasting time", or, as some may say, "dawdling" or "lingering". It is often used as verb meaning "wasting time doing something as long as possible" or "delaying (as a tactic)" or as an adjective meaning "time-consuming". There might be some regional difference, though.


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## Dymn

Catalan and Spanish just as French ('to kill' and 'to pass'):

Catalan:
_*matar *el temps
*passar *el temps
_
Spanish:
_*matar *el tiempo
*pasar *el tiempo_


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## apmoy70

ThomasK said:


> No problem, Apmoy. So there is no link between the two, they are quite different, aren't they? I simply thought the god symbolised time, the way Apollo can be said to stand for reason.


The etymology of *«Κρόνος» Krónŏs* (the mythical father of the ancient Greek Olympian gods) is obscure (it's possibly linked to the ancient Greek v. *«κραιαίνω» kraiaínō*, later form *«κραίνω» kraínō* --> _to rule, complete, (intr.) to end_ < PIE *ḱrh₂-s-n- _head_ cf Gr. «κάρᾱ» (kárā), _head_; Skt. शिरस् (śiras), _top, peak_; Proto-Germanic *hirsniją > Ger. Hirn). Its earlier form was perhaps *Κρόσνος < *kr̥sneh₂-
*«Χρόνος» kʰrónŏs* (masc.) on the other hand has a possible PIE root *ǵʰer- _to enclose_ > *gʰr-ono- (cf  Skt. हरति (hárati), _to carry, offer_; Av. gərədha; Lat. hortus; Proto-Germanic *gardô > Dt. gaarde, Eng. garden). On the semantic side, an original meaning "encompassing time-limit" has been assumed for «χρόνος» or even "seizer" (Beekes pg. 1652).


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## ger4

kloie said:


> in german= die Zeit totschlagen





kloie said:


> die Zeit=time
> totschlagen=to beat to death


In addition to that, you can say _(sich)*_ _die Zeit vertreiben_ or _die Zeit verbringen_ - as in Dutch: 


ThomasK said:


> - _de tijd *verdrijven*_: to *drive *it *away*
> -_ tijd *doorbrengen*_: *pass *(the) time -but that is quite common, I believe - or to *spend *time


* _sich_ = reflexive pronoun, difficult to define its function here. I guess it takes the attention away from the 'object', in a way - it doesn't really matter what it is you 'drive away' the time with... By contrast, the expression _die Zeit verbringen_ ('to spend time') - never used with a reflexive pronoun -  seems to focus more on the activity itself.


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## ThomasK

I believe the 'sich' here would be called something like an involved object, but I am not really sure. It would be impossible in Dutch though.


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## ThomasK

Just read: _*meubler le temps*_, a euphemism (…) for killing time in French, I think, as filling the void… But a nice metaphor!

It reminds me also of *verdrijven/ drive away *or something, as mentioned above: time like a burdensome animal, or so? What the underlying time metaphor is for passing: no idee. Is it like a forest one has to get through? _[I refer to the Dutch meaning here, perhaps you don't have the same association in your language if you use something like passing...]_


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## DearPrudence

ThomasK said:


> Just read: _*meubler le temps*_, a euphemism (…) for killing time in French, I think, as filling the void… But a nice metaphor!


Let's just note that this is not a common collocation. It is rather used with "conversation" or "silence" (or nothing at all, to just talk to avoid silence).


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## ThomasK

(Ha, you're still around & alive and kicking! Welcome back - if you were gone…)
I had no idea that it was more common in other contexts. I just liked the metaphor, and as a matter of fact, I think they all have something in common: the void, the emptiness.


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## Dymn

In *Catalan *we'd also say: _fer temps _("to do time"), specifically when you're waiting for something and you fill up that time with whatever comes at hand, instead of doing nothing.


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## ThomasK

But then that seems like the opposite of killing time, doesn'it (when I may assume that "fer" is like making, creating). We might use that expression perhaps when we try to "win" time... Or how do you view "fer"? Both doing and making time?


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## Dymn

ThomasK said:


> But then that seems like the opposite of killing time, doesn'it (when I may assume that "fer" is like making, creating).


Just to make it clear, "_fer temps" _is not being productive, it's just doing anything at all to avoid getting bored. It's the same as "killing time" but only when you have to wait for something. If I'm downtown with someone and I have an appointment in an hour I might say, let's go _fer temps _and have a drink.

As for whether it seems counterintuitive (I think that's what you were asking), I wouldn't look much into it, _fer _is by far the most common verb in collocations in Catalan, it just acts as a verbal support to "_temps_" (I don't know if I'm making myself understood).


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## TheCrociato91

We do say literally "kill time" in *Italian*: _ammazzare il tempo_. Of course, there are other ways to say it, too.



Dymn said:


> In *Catalan *we'd also say: _fer temps _("to do time"), specifically when you're waiting for something and you fill up that time with whatever comes at hand, instead of doing nothing.





ThomasK said:


> But then that seems like the opposite of killing time, doesn'it (when I may assume that "fer" is like making, creating). We might use that expression perhaps when we try to "win" time... Or how do you view "fer"? Both doing and making time?





Dymn said:


> Just to make it clear, "_fer temps" _is not being productive, it's just doing anything at all to avoid getting bored. It's the same as "killing time" but only when you have to wait for something. If I'm downtown with someone and I have an appointment in an hour I might say, let's go _fer temps _and have a drink.
> 
> As for whether it seems counterintuitive (I think that's what you were asking), I wouldn't look much into it, _fer _is by far the most common verb in collocations in Catalan, it just acts as a verbal support to "_temps_" (I don't know if I'm making myself understood).



Assuming that _fer temps_ is equivalent to the Spanish _hacer tiempo_, I once partook in an interesting discussion revolving around the differences between _matar el tiempo_ and _hacer tiempo_. I'll leave a link to it in case someone's interested: Hacer tiempo


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## nimak

*Macedonian*

тепа време (tépa vréme) or утепа време (útepa vréme)

тепа (tepa) = 'to beat'; _in some context_ 'to kill'
утепа (utepa) = 'to beat to death'; _ in some context_ 'to kill'


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## Armas

Finnish:

_tappaa aikaa_ "to kill time"
_kuluttaa aikaa_ "to spend/consume/use up time"


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## Schlabberlatz

ThomasK said:


> What the underlying time metaphor is for passing: no idee.


Maybe it's like this:
to sink a ship = to make a ship sink
to pass time =   to make time pass = to make time go away


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## ThomasK

Maybe: to go through time???


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## Schlabberlatz

ThomasK said:


> Maybe: to go through time???


That's what you've said before. You may be right, but I don't think so.


ThomasK said:


> Is it like a forest one has to get through?


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## ThomasK

Strange but someone reacted to this thread, I was informed, calling in doubt my hint that passing is like going through. I cannot be sure either. As a matter of fact, etymologically speaking, *passing + DO is going past or along *something, I think. I wonder whether anyone has other ideas about this idea of passing time..


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## Schlabberlatz

On second thoughts, I guess you are probably right. It's possible that my interpretation has been influenced by German expressions like "sich die Zeit vertreiben" and "Zeit verbringen" (cf. above #39). But there's also "durchleben":


> Wörterbuch v1 Englisch-Deutsch © WordReference.com 2012:
> *durchleben *v/t (untrennb, hat) *go (oder live) through*, experience;
> (im Geiste) noch einmal durchleben relive
> durchleben - Wörterbuch Deutsch-Englisch - WordReference.com


e. g. "harte Zeiten durchleben", "to go through hard times".

Still, I would not rule out the other explanation completely. If you want to pass your time agreeably, it could mean you want *to make it pass* agreeably, possibly by the help of a *pastime*:


> WordReference Random House Learner's Dictionary of American English © 2019
> *pas•time* _/ˈpæsˌtaɪm/_  n. [countable]
> 
> something, as a game, sport, or hobby, that serves *to make time pass* agreeably:
> pastime - WordReference.com Dictionary of English


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## ThomasK

As for (a) pleased to hear that. did not know you coud use die Zeit durchleben in German. Very interesting! 

As for (b) I could agree with what you say, but I am looking a bit further and wonder then where this causative pass comes from: time is passing is probably something like time running out, but the how do we interpret time passing? Time going??? Time of duration going through the  large time (concept). You see what I mean? I am looking for an underlying metaphor…
 As a matter of fact, (past =) vorbei/ voorbij: how do we interpret the latter two? It is something like "gone by", which I suppose means "along"... What do you think?


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## Schlabberlatz

ThomasK said:


> did not know you coud use die Zeit durchleben in German


It is only a rough equivalent of "to pass"; "*die* Zeit durchleben" is not idiomatic; I guess I should have mentioned that. I think one would not say to live through *the* time, either. You live through "*a* hard time" or "hard times". Native speakers, please correct me if I'm wrong.


ThomasK said:


> I am looking for an underlying metaphor…
> As a matter of fact, (past =) vorbei/ voorbij: how do we interpret the latter two? It is something like "gone by",


Yes, that sounds reasonable. I think you can say "Die Jahre ziehen vorbei" in German, "The years go by". ("Es geht vorbei" means "It will end".) Maybe it means that it feels as if you were standing there while the years are going past you. Does time really *move*? At least it feels like it: past --> present --> future.


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## ThomasK

Interesting, this difference: you do say  *X *_Zeit verlieren,_ don't you? We generally try _*de* tijd te dode_n (time in general: English is certainly different, with regard to determiners). So we seem to be engaged in a battle with time as such. Yet, we are _*x*_ _tijd aan het verliezen (wasting [_fractions of ???]_ time). _

Does time move? It probably does not, but I believe Lakoff/ Johnson explained that man uses (physical) metaphors in order to describe abstract things. That does create some view of things, but that is not the truth an sich/ as such. As a matter of fact, when we change (succeed in changing) the metaphors used, we may arrive at a different world view - or at least view on the situation... That is why I like to examine roots of words...


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## Schlabberlatz

ThomasK said:


> Interesting, this difference: you do say *X *_Zeit verlieren,_ don't you?


Sorry, I don't really understand your question.
dadurch werde ich viel Zeit verlieren
dadurch werde ich einen ganzen Tag verlieren
Duden | verlieren | Rechtschreibung, Bedeutung, Definition, Herkunft

Wir haben keine Zeit zu verlieren = We can't waste any time = There's no time to lose


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## ThomasK

My simple question would be: you can at least say: _Dadurch werde ich Zeit verlieren_, don't you?


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## Schlabberlatz

ThomasK said:


> My simple question would be: you can at least say: _Dadurch werde ich Zeit verlieren_, don't you?


Yes, the sentence is correct. But what do you conclude from that?


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## ThomasK

I should not draw too many conclusions from that, but in my view "time" can be different from "the time". "Time" seems to be more general, " the time" more like a specific amount.  "die Zeit" in my view sounds like a container full of time...


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