# pulled <a> sleeve off your sweater



## Phoebe1200

School of Rock, TV show
Context: Summer likes Freddy and her friend Tomika tells her about the ways she can let Freddy know that she likes him without actually telling it. For example, laugh at his jokes, always maintain eye contact and find an excuse to casually touch his arm, maybe pull some lint off his sweater or something. And now Summer is trying to do all that when she ran into Freddy in the hall but it's not really working. When she pretends to pull a lint off his shoulder she accidentally pulls the whole sleeve off his sweater and at that moment another girl comes over, Kale and sees it. 

*Summer*: Oh, no. You've got a little lint on (the sleeve falls off)
*Kale*: Hey, Freddy!
*Freddy*: What's happening??
*Kale*: Summer just pulled *a* sleeve off your sweater _and _made it a million times better!


I think she used "a". Is it correct here?


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## owlman5

It seems okay to me, Phoebe.  Perhaps Kale didn't use "the sleeve" because the sweater had more than one sleeve.


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## Phoebe1200

Thank you.


owlman5 said:


> Perhaps Kale didn't use "the sleeve" because the sweater had more than one sleeve.


Yes, of course, Freddy's sweater consisted of two sleeves. So she used the indefinite article to mean one of the sleeves?


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## Dretagoto

Yes. Personally I'd be inclined to say "the sleeve", but I'd guess that she said "a sleeve" because there is more than one, and it didn't matter which - she thought that removing either of them has improved the sweater.


Cross-posted.


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## Phoebe1200

Thank you.



owlman5 said:


> Perhaps Kale didn't use "the sleeve"





Dretagoto said:


> but I'd guess that she said "a sleeve"


I don't really know which article she actually said, I only think that it was "a".

So "the" would be more natural and idiomatic to use in the OP?


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## VicNicSor

Phoebe1200 said:


> Summer just pulled *a* sleeve off your sweater _and _made it a million times better!


It means the sweater looks much better without a/one sleeve (no matter the right one or the left one).
I don't understand what would justify the use of "the" in this context...


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## Barque

I think I'd use "the" too. 
Pulled the sleeve off your sweater = Pulled off the sleeve that's part of your sweater, as one of a pair.


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## VicNicSor

Barque said:


> = Pulled off *the sleeve that's part of your sweater*


Doesn't it sound like one sleeve _is _part of your sweater, while the other sleeve_ is not_?


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## Barque

That's why I added "as one of a pair".


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## VicNicSor

If it's *one of* a pair, why it is "*the*"? Besides, in the OP there's no "one of a pair". I'm confused...


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## Glasguensis

Both "a" and "the" are acceptable. It would be misleading to say that one was more idiomatic than the other - native speakers would choose one or the other without thinking about it.


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## Barque

VicNicSor said:


> If it's *one of* a pair, why it is "*the*"? Besides, in the OP there's no "one of a pair". I'm confused...


It's not a question of logic but of usage. I gave the explanation that I did because I thought it might be a possible reason but perhaps there's none.


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## VicNicSor

Ah, it's perhaps because of the "of-phrase" -- "*the *sleeve *of *your sweater".

It's like: "John is *the *son of Mr. Smith", which could be said even though Mr. Smith is known to have other sons. Right?


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## Barque

VicNicSor said:


> the "of-phrase" -- "*the *sleeve *off *your sweater".


"Off" and "of" are different. "Off" goes with "pull" here and refers to the removal of the sleeve. _The sleeve was pulled off._


VicNicSor said:


> It's like: "John is *the *son of Mr. Smith",


I don't know if it's the same principle (if there's one here) but you could look at it that way if it makes it easier.


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## VicNicSor

Barque said:


> "Off" and "of" are different. "Off" goes with "pull" here and refers to the removal of the sleeve. _The sleeve was pulled off._


Oh, obviously it was just a typo, I know the difference between off and of


Barque said:


> I don't know if it's the same principle (if there's one here) but you could look at it that way if it makes it easier.


If you are not sure if they are similar, why do you think I could look at it that way?
Thanks.


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## Glasguensis

The reference is sufficiently specific as to allow the use of "the" - everyone knows which sleeve has been removed. But since it's a first use, "a" is also possible.


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## Barque

VicNicSor said:


> why do you think I could look at it that way?


I don't know if you're joking but if you look again, you'll see I gave you the reason in the same sentence.


Barque said:


> if it makes it easier.


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## VicNicSor

Glasguensis said:


> The reference is sufficiently specific as to allow the use of "the" - everyone knows which sleeve has been removed.


Wouldn't it then be referred to by "that"?


Barque said:


> I don't know if you're joking but if you look again, you'll see I gave you the reason in the same sentence.


I'm serious It's like "I don't know if it's correct, but if it makes it easier you can think of it that way" = It certainly could make it easier (for you to understand) even though it could be incorrect.


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## Glasguensis

VicNicSor said:


> Wouldn't it then be referred to by "that"?


No. "That" would be used to emphasize or intensify the specific reference.


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## VicNicSor

Glasguensis said:


> No. "That" would be used to emphasize or intensify the specific reference.


But how does it differ from this?:


Glasguensis said:


> The reference is sufficiently specific as to allow the use of "the" - everyone knows which sleeve has been removed.


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## Barque

VicNicSor said:


> I'm serious It's like "I don't know if it's correct, but if it makes it easier you can think of it that way" = It certainly could make it easier (for you to understand) even though it could be incorrect.


I don't analyse each word of what I say to such an extent. My meaning was simply "If you are particular about identifying a reason for "the", go ahead and think of the _of_-phrase as the reason". It's as good as any. Hopefully someone else will give you a better answer.


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## Edinburgher

Both "a" and "the" can be justified.  A sweater has two sleeves, and she pulled off one of them:
"Hey look, she's pulled *a* sleeve off your sweater."  -- It is unimportant which sleeve she pulled off.
"Hey look, she's pulled *the* sleeve off your sweater." --   It's a specific reference to the sleeve that she had been picking at (pretending to pull lint off it).  This should only be said if there is no danger of misinterpreting it to mean that she pulled off the only sleeve it had.


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## VicNicSor

Barque said:


> My meaning was simply "If you are particular about identifying a reason for "the", go ahead and think of the _of_-phrase as the reason". It's as good as any.


Of course I am. There must be one reason that is better than others, not just "as good as"...


Edinburgher said:


> "Hey look, she's pulled *the* sleeve off your sweater." -- It's a specific reference to the sleeve that she had been picking at (pretending to pull lint off it). This should only be said if there is no danger of misinterpreting it to mean that she pulled off the only sleeve it had.


I still don't understand If it is not the same reference as if it had been made by the demonstrative adjective "*that*", what is the difference?..


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## Glasguensis

VicNicSor said:


> But how does it differ from this?:


I'm pretty sure we've already discussed this, but the difference between "the" and "that" is one of emphasis or of clarification.

1 Look at the cat - only one cat could be the subject
2 Look at that cat - accompanied by a gesture indicating which of multiple cats is the subject
3 Look at that cat - only one cat could be the subject but I want to emphasize how special in some way the cat is (funny, lazy, fat, or whatever)
In the OP there is nothing special about the sleeve to justify usage 3, and we don't need to identify it as in usage 2, so we stick with usage 1.


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## VicNicSor

Glasguensis said:


> 1 Look at the cat - only one cat could be the subject


By saying "the cat" I identify the object the listener should look at. "A cat" would be incorrect.

But in the OP it seems very different to me:
"Summer just pulled *a* sleeve off your sweater and made it a million times better!"

I don't identify any object, and don't draw attention to it, I just state the fact that the sweater looks better now, with one sleeve left


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## Glasguensis

"A cat" would be inappropriate only in the sense that if there is only one cat you are incorrectly implying that there is a choice. If there is in fact a choice and it doesn't matter which the listener looks at, "a cat" is perfectly possible.

The original case is different in the sense that there is more than one sleeve but only one which has been pulled off. It is therefore perfectly acceptable to use either "a" or "the" depending on whether you are considering all sleeves or only the recently detached one. "That" on the other hand is not appropriate because there is no need to specify the sleeve, nor any reason to emphasise its specialness.


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## VicNicSor

Glasguensis said:


> "A cat" would be inappropriate only in the sense that if there is only one cat you are incorrectly implying that there is a choice. If there is in fact a choice and it doesn't matter which the listener looks at, "a cat" is perfectly possible.


It would be an entirely different context.


Glasguensis said:


> The original case is different in the sense that there is more than one sleeve but only one which has been pulled off. It is therefore perfectly acceptable to use either "a" or "the" depending on whether you are considering all sleeves or only the recently detached one. "That" on the other hand is not appropriate because there is no need to specify the sleeve, nor any reason to emphasise its specialness.


I don't understnad how the very fact that something happened to a thing can make that thing specific.

You see your friend give one of his apples to a former friend of you two. You asks him:
-- What did you just do??
-- I gave him *an apple*.
-- You shouldn't! We are not friends with him anymore! You forget?

Would you use "*the*" here for the same reason as you would in the OP?


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## Glasguensis

No, but the situation is different. You could say to the ex-friend either "give him back the apple" or "give him back that apple". In that case it's the fact that it's the specific apple which has been handed over and is NOW being specified which makes it specific. But your friend's answer only works with "an apple" because he is referring to a random apple which was in his possession PRIOR  to handing it over. 
It's similar with the sleeve.


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## VicNicSor

Glasguensis said:


> No, but the situation is different. You could say to the ex-friend either "give him back the apple" or "give him back that apple". In that case it's the fact that it's the specific apple which has been handed over and is NOW being specified which makes it specific. But your friend's answer only works with "an apple" because he is referring to a random apple which was in his possession PRIOR  to handing it over.
> It's similar with the sleeve.


I'm confused a little... The two red parts contradict one another. Am I missing something?


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## Barque

VicNicSor said:


> There must be one reason that is better than others, not just "as good as"...


We're talking about the reason for "the" that _you_ came up with in #12. I'm saying "Ok, maybe that works. Use it if you like". By "It's as good as any", I was acknowledging that maybe you have a point. That's all. It's not meant to be taken so literally.


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## Glasguensis

My final sentence was intended to mean that the reasoning for choosing "a" or "the" depending on the perspective was the same between the two scenarios - before an event the object is one of many, but an event causes a particular object to become unique. The choice of article depends on whether we have a à perspective of before or after the event. 

When I said that the situation was different, I was referring to the fact that in your example sentence only one perspective is natural (as it happens, the "before the event" perspective), whereas in the OP, both perspectives are possible.


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## VicNicSor

Glasguensis said:


> My final sentence was intended to mean that the reasoning for choosing "a" or "the" depending on the perspective was the same between the two scenarios - before an event the object is one of many, but an event causes a particular object to become unique. The choice of article depends on whether we have a à perspective of before or after the event.
> 
> When I said that the situation was different, I was referring to the fact that in your example sentence only one perspective is natural (as it happens, the "before the event" perspective), whereas in the OP, both perspectives are possible.


Why, in both scenarios -- my example and the OP -- the perspective is "*after *the event": *after *giving one apple, and *after *pulling one sleeve off.
For a greater similarity, let's say the friend had *two *apples (just like the sweater had two sleeves).


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## Glasguensis

No - in your example the perspective is before the event - I gave him an apple : some random apple which I had in my possession. The dialogue takes place after the event but the way we regard the apple in this sentence is in its pre-event form. I suggested other sentences which regard the apple in its post-event form. 

Where the OP sentence is different from the apple sentences is that it allows the sleeve to be regarded in either form.


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## VicNicSor

Glasguensis said:


> No - in your example the perspective is *before *the event - I gave him an apple : some random* apple which I had in my possession. The dialogue takes place after the event but the way we regard the apple in this sentence is in its pre-event form.


The same is in the OP -- Summer pulled one of the sleeves off that the sweater had *before *she did so.*

*As I suggested, let's say he had only two apples.



Glasguensis said:


> I suggested other sentences which regard the apple in its post-event form.


I can easily suggest other sentences which regard the sleeve in its post-event form, too. E.g.: "Summer, sew *the sleeve* back to my shirt immediately!"

So I still see no difference


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## Glasguensis

I'm not sure I can make it any clearer. The OP sentence offers the possibility to consider the sleeve in either its before or after state. Your apple example doesn't - only the before state is natural. In both situations other sentences can be constructed, and each has different possibilities - some sentences would allow only before, some only after and some both. It is the combination of the context and sentence which determines this - not one or the other on its own.


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## VicNicSor

Glasguensis said:


> The OP sentence offers the possibility to consider the sleeve in either its before or after state. Your apple example doesn't - only the before state is natural.


Yes, that's the problem -- to me, the OP context and mine are identical as to the use of the article..


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## Oddmania

You guys have a knack for finding tricky examples! This probably won't be a very satisfying answer, but at this point I don't think it hinges on grammar anymore, but rather on usage. This is one of those moments when you should just stop trying to read anything into it. The indefinite article would sound pretty odd to me in this context. It sounds either *1.* over-descriptive, or *2.* as though his sweater had numerous sleeves.

If you were trying to describe a process very precisely, step by step, you very well might say "_I ripped *a *sleeve off my shirt and tied it tightly around the wound_" or _"I wanted a one-sleeve jacket, so I cut *a *sleeve off my old denim jacket and then..._". If there was a large number of items, you also could say "_I took such a deep breath *a *button popped off my shirt_" or "_A fish bit *a *finger off her left hand_". In the context of the TV show, though, the indefinite article wouldn't have occured to me. _She pulled so hard she ripped *the *sleeve off his jumper._


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## VicNicSor

Oddmania said:


> In the context of the TV show, the indefinite article wouldn't have occured to me. _She pulled so hard she ripped *the *sleeve off his jumper._


So what would be your explanation for the definite article here?


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## Oddmania

I don't have any. *1. *The sentence is not descriptive and *2.* a jumper is not a piece of clothing that has a large number of sleeves, so the indefinite article is simply unnecessary. "_The_" is what we're most likely to say in French, Spanish and Italian as well. I'd always thought it was some 'universal' practice that didn't require any explanation, so I've never really studied deep into the matter. Maybe someone else will come up with a better explanation (but frankly after reading all of this thread I don't think much needs to be added. It's simply much more idiomatic).


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## VicNicSor

Oddmania said:


> *1. *The sentence is not descriptive and *2.* a jumper is not a piece of clothing that has a large number of sleeves, so the indefinite article is simply unnecessary.


I feel I have problems with these two points...

*1*. Why isn't it descriptive?... It describes "what's happening"... i.e., what kind of thing is happening...

*2*. Does it really matter whether it's only two or a larger number? I thought what's important was it's more than one... no?


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## Oddmania

1. The indefinite article would make more sense to me in a narrative, because the reader cannot _see _what's happening so the author needs to be very descriptive ("John sat down and tore a sleeve off his shirt to bandage his head"); or if you were walking someone through a process: "First, cut *a *sleeve from your jacket and carefully cut it open along the seam, using the scissors".

2. I came up with this because you obviously cannot say "She went for a swim in the river and a piranha bit *the *finger off her right hand" (because we have numerous fingers), but it sounds fine with "*the *sleeve", even though there are two of them. You would also say "I nearly tore _the _pocket off my trousers trying to get my money out!".


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## VicNicSor

Oddmania said:


> but it sounds fine with "*the *sleeve", even though there are two of them. You would also say "I nearly tore _the _pocket off my trousers trying to get my money out!".


I'm wondering, if it a special use of the definite article with garments when speaking about one of a pair (trouser leg, sleeve, etc)?


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## Oddmania

Possibly. I have no idea. It's simply idiomatic.


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## Barque

Whatever the reason might be (and the longer this goes on the more I'm tending to the possibility that there isn't one) it isn't that. 

Cross-posted.


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## VicNicSor

Thank you for the answers

(feeling uncomfortable though, because of still not having a clear idea about the definite article here)


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