# Icelandic: Jafnvel trén sýnast letileg og syfjuleg.



## ShakeyX

I think I get what is going on but just wanted to confirm. I will try not to use the wrong terminology and not upset anyone 

So. Jafnvel trén sýnast letileg og syfjuleg.

I was wondering if "trén" is the subject and "Jafnvel" is an adverb (given also that Icelandic is a V2 language) why sýnast in the 3rd position?

I am also aware in common sentences using virðast or sýnast that a dative pronoun normally sits in the first position and the tré would be in the 3rd position (mér sýnist tréð leið) "to me the tre seems sad"

So I thought maybe as this is impersonal that Jafnvel is in place of using a það but this still doesn't explain why trén is where it is.

Thanks for your help.


----------



## Alxmrphi

> I was wondering if "trén" is the subject and "Jafnvel" is an adverb (given also that Icelandic is a V2 language) why sýnast in the 3rd position?


Icelandic is mostly V2 but can easily be V3 in other places. A typical example is with discourse markers that show some sort of way of reflecting the speaker's attitude. That's why you will often see/hear things like, "Ég bara *veit* [3] það ekki," or, "Þeir einfaldlega/nátturulega* geta *[3]ekki tekið það upp hjá sjálfum sér að..." With jafnvel, it's the same sort of issue of putting in speaker nuance, "_Even the trees_ seemed....."


> I am also aware in common sentences using virðast or sýnast that a dative pronoun normally sits in the first position and the tré would be in the 3rd position (mér sýnist tréð leið) "to me the tre seems sad"


True, but trees are not conscious and don't have the ability to perceive things.  You can get away with writing_ trjánum virðast _only if the next word is _Hobbitarnir_ 


> So I thought maybe as this is impersonal that Jafnvel is in place of using a það but this still doesn't explain why trén is where it is.


Nope, nothing like that.


----------



## ShakeyX

Ah yeh I am familiar with the "ég bara veit" situation  makes sense.

So if this is just a nuance, and not specific to the specific sentence we are dealing with, does that mean the typical "adverb verb noun" construction can go unflipped?

"Ég fer heim á morgun" - "Á morgun fer ég heim"

Add abit of nuance and we could get "Á morgun ég fer heim"?

Maybe a bad example as I see how jafnvel has this feeling of stress and I get what is going on but... okei replace á morgun for anything else if this particular example doesnt work but you understand what I am getting at. In a normal (any) situation is this also possible, trying to remove the possibility that this is related to something that is happening in an already quite complicated structure (mér virðist eitthvað) and just see if this nuance can be added to a more standard sentence.

Thanks


----------



## Silver_Biscuit

Ég fer heim á morgun. 

Á morgun fer ég heim. 

Á morgun ég fer heim. 

_Jafnvel_ isn't really the same as _á morgun_, but I'm sorry, I don't really know why! I think it's because _jafnvel noun_ is a noun phrase, so _jafnvel trén_ only counts as one unit, grammatically speaking. However, this is just a guess, maybe it wouldn't be classed as a noun phrase.


----------



## Silver_Biscuit

I found this: http://www.ljod.is/index.php/ljod/view_poem/2662

Which suggests you can actually use that form. But it is a poem, and poetry often uses peculiar syntax that you wouldn't see in other sorts of writing.


----------



## ShakeyX

Yeh I should have probably said that this is Mr Men  Herra Latur to be specific

Herra Latur býr í Syfjulandi sem er letilegur og syfjulegur staður.

Fuglarnir í Syfjulandi fljúga svo hægt að þeir detta stundum ofan úr loftinu.

Grasið vex svo hægt að það þarf ekki að slá það nema einu sinni á ári.

Jafnvel trén sýnast letileg og syfjuleg.

Maybe the kindof poetic/childish style is the answer for the unusual non-swapping with a adverb placed at the start.


----------



## ShakeyX

I just wonder where both subject and indirect object would be placed in a normal situation (non poetic) if an adverb was topicalised.

Eitthvað virðist mér... - "standard construction"

mér virðist eitthvað... "mér topicalised (common)"

Jafnvel virðist eitthvað mér ??? would it be like this. This is abit off the original topic just trying to see what the normal flipping and tweeking would be like. It seems in the case of Herra Latur that it simply hasn't been flipped due to the nuance in the style of writing that Alxmrphi was referring to.

EDIT: using the word standard to mean.. in a standard SVO order not what is "standard" to the language as in most common.


----------



## Alxmrphi

> Eitthvað virðist mér... - "standard construction"
> Mér virðist eitthvað... "mér topicalised (common)"


That's not a settled issue in Icelandic syntax. It really, really isn't necessary to get into those details in order to understand this construction or use it, so it's best not to add totally OTT complexity for a question like this.


> Jafnvel virðist eitthvað mér ??? would it be like this.


_Mér_ is the subject, so it must go after the verb when topicalisation happens. Not long ago, it was thought (based on how other languages work) that eitthvað would have been the subject and this is the result of some transformations, but Icelandic linguists are famous for actually arguing for whole paradigm shifts on these types of sentences, and in the last 30-40 years there has been a shift of opinion. Whereas previously people analysed _þetta virðist mér_ as the standard order, this is now seen as topicalisation as the neutral/natural order should actually be _mér virðist þetta_ for a collection of reasons (this is why I said it's not a totally settled issue). But anyway, the answer to the specific question is that you need _mér_ after the verb if topicalisation happens - _enginn vafi leikur á því_.


----------



## ShakeyX

Cheers for the help.

So.

1) If this kind of sentenced underwent topicalisation we would have t.d. "Jafnvel virðist mér eitthvað...

2) Jafnvel doesn't juggle the subject and verb in herra Latur much in the same way we can say "ég bara veit ekki", as sort of... expression, emphasis but in most situations, jafnvel would apply the same rules as other adverbs.


----------



## Alxmrphi

> 1) If this kind of sentenced underwent topicalisation we would have t.d. "Jafnvel virðist mér eitthvað...


The key word being *if* here. It seems quite forced and doesn't sound that natural to me, but your question was specifically about a hypothetical.


> 2) Jafnvel doesn't juggle the subject and verb in herra Latur much in the same way we can say "ég bara veit ekki", as sort of... expression, emphasis but in most situations, jafnvel would apply the same rules as other adverbs.


I'm hesitant to say anything about this with confidence as that was just my postulating before and not anything I had specifically read about. It was a personal observation that those kind of subjective markers often do interrupt otherwise-strict syntactic rules. You'd be ill-advised to generalise_ [jafnvel + noun]_ to anything to do with_ jafnvel _when used by itself, I'd say. You're better viewing this as part of the noun phrase [even trees] even though it's not really like that. Maybe [even [trees]] [verb] if you want to imagine it systematically; a unit within a unit. Basically, this just needs to be put on a mental Post-it note and then forgotten about - ever-present just under your conscious mind but not tearing down any useful rules that can help you when understanding 99% of the language.


----------



## ShakeyX

Haha okay it's put on a post-it.

I have a literal one on my desktop, with the biggest Icelandic mysteries (to me).


----------



## Silver_Biscuit

ShakeyX said:


> Maybe the kindof poetic/childish style is the answer for the unusual non-swapping with a adverb placed at the start.



No, it's a completely typical sentence. There's nothing unusual about it.


----------

