# Persian: میاوق (transliteration of qaaf ق)



## sb70012

*q* بنویسن، نوشتن  *g*  سلام دوستان. پسوند شهرت من* میاوق* هست. میاوق اسم یک روستا در ارومیه هست. ولی نمیدونم چرا در ویکیپیدیا عوض اینکه آخرشو 



در ویکیپیدیا نوشته شده
*Miavaq*

  نیست؟ *g* چرا آخرش  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miavaqv​


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## colognial

سلام. فکر می کنم حرف "کیو" در عربی با حرف "ق" نزدیکی دارد
برای مثال، قرآن را که یک واژه ی عربی است در انگلیسی با "کیو" شروع می کنند
The Quran
با این حال تا آن جا که پای نام های بومی درمیان است یک نویسش معیار وجود ندارد: هرکس می تواند نه تنها املای انگلیسی نام زادگاه اش را به چیزی که فکر می کند منطقی است تغییر دهد بلکه قطعاً طرز نوشتن نام خود را خود تعیین کند​


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## molana

sb70012 said:


> در ویکیپیدیا نوشته شده
> *Miavaq*
> نیست؟ *g* چرا آخرش


*g*?
Then it is pronounced میاوگ [=Miavag].
Did you mean *gh*? If yes, then why are you thinking it must be written by *gh* instead of *q*?


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## colognial

molana, I'm only guessing here, but maybe a 'g' would sound just right in the case of میاوق. It may be closer to how the name of the town is actually pronounced. Perhaps the owner of the thread can correct me if I'm wrong.


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## PersoLatin

^ In my experience, the pronunciation of Persian words with *ق*, (while speaking Turkish or Persian) by majority of Turkish Iranians, is much closer to *گ *than *ق*. My Father is originally from a Turkish speaking village close to Hamedân, so I have experienced it there as well as heard Azarbâijânis in Tehran.


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## Treaty

Even some Arabs (like a friend of mine from Abha, KSA) pronounce it as [g].


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## Alfaaz

Quote from Arabic forum thread ق => q - g - gh:


			
				Alfaaz said:
			
		

> sb70012: In light of this question here and your other recent thread in the IIL Forum discussing the same topic, here is a list of few relevant threads which might be helpful:
> 
> Persian: آقا و آغا
> Urdu, Persian: Qaf - Khey/Ghayn
> Persian: Pronunciation of letters غ and ق in Modern Persian
> As mentioned in the threads listed above, while the distinction between غ and ق might not have remained in certain dialects of Irani Persian (and Arabic), it is still generally present in Standard Arabic, Dari/Afghani Persian, and other regional languages like Urdu, Pashto, etc.
> 
> Examples from Forvo illustrating the difference in pronunciation of the two letters:
> 
> آغا - _aaGhaa_
> آقا - _aaqaa_


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## Jamal31

I will quote my post from the Arabic forum:



Jamal31 said:


> From what I've read, in classical Fusha ق is pronounced as qh (somewhat similar to خ and غ but using the back of the tongue instead of being in the throat. It was its deviation towards ك, which is a little further down the throat, which caused its pronunciation to become 'q' by some people; and it's deviation toward غ, which is further back in the mouth at the top of the throat without using the tongue, which caused its pronunciation to change to 'g' by some people. It's also the deviation of ق towards q/k and the deviation of Dhammah 'u' to an 'o' which has given birth to the spelling "Koran" for قرآن.
> 
> You can kind of hear the sound which is more correct in this recitation of Surah Qhaf/Qaf (Surah 50), which is named after the letter:
> [Video link removed by mod as per Forum Rule#4]


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## sb70012

پس یعنی باقری که
Bagheri
نوشته میشه صحیح نیست دیگه درسته؟
باید بنویسیم 
Baqeri

نظرتون راجب شهرت باقری چی هست؟


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## colognial

sb70012, I don't believe the suggestion to change 'Bagheri' to 'Baqeri' is one that needs to concern anyone except the person whose surname this is. It is up to each individual how they would like their name spelled.


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## farasso0

sb70012 said:


> نظرتون *راجب *شهرت باقری چی هست؟


راجع به


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## sb70012

colognial said:


> sb70012, I don't believe the suggestion to change 'Bagheri' to 'Baqeri' is one that needs to concern anyone except the person whose surname this is. It is up to each individual how they would like their name spelled.



خب برادر مگه یادگرفتن املای صحیحش اشکال داره؟ من یعنی حق ندارم املای صحیح این شهرت رو یاد بگیرم؟ و به خودم بگم بابا ولش کن خب هرجور مینویسی بنویس و مهم اینه که تلفظتو برسونه. این که نمیشه. بهتره آدم یه چیزی رو که یاد میگیره دقیق یاد بگیره دیگه. راستش من شهرتم باقری هست برا همون این همه مدت "ق" رو با "جی ایچ" مینوشتم ولی الان احساس میکنم که "ق" در باقری هم باید با "کیو" نوشته بشه. ولی باز مطمعن نیستم و برا همون اینو پرسیدم اینجا

با تشکر​


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## colognial

شما صاحب صلاحیت هستید و حق دارید و ضمناً حق انتخاب املای نام هم با شماست چون صاحب نام شمایید.​


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## Treaty

موضوع اینه که املای صحیح و غلط نداره. هر جور بنویسیدش صحیحه. اگر در یک کشور عربی یا ترکیه زندگی می کردید اونوقت موضوع فرق می کرد چون حرف ق تلفط متمایزی داشت. ولی در ایران، از اونجا که در زبان رسمی، حرف ق و غ یه تلفظ دارند املای اون خیلی مهم نیست​


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## PersoLatin

رو بکار ببری *q* نوشته بشه زیاده،‏ به همین دلیل توصیه من اینه که *q* به نظر من امکان اینکه در ایرا ن،‏ ‏تدریجاً و یا رسماً،‏ ‏غ و ق با


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## Aloyalfriend

علیک سلام
.استفاده می شود q در نظام واجی زبان فارسی، برای توصیف همخوان «ق» از
.برای مطالعه ی بیشتر، می توانید کتاب «ساخت زبان فارسی» از خانم آزیتا افراشی را مطالعه کنید


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## colognial

Aloyalfriend said:


> علیک سلام
> .استفاده می شود q در نظام واجی زبان فارسی، برای توصیف همخوان «ق» از
> .برای مطالعه ی بیشتر، می توانید کتاب «ساخت زبان فارسی» از خانم آزیتا افراشی را مطالعه کنید


Interesting! Aloyalfriend, what exactly is "نظام واجی زبان فارسی"? Do you think you could elaborate a bit? Thanks.


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## Aloyalfriend

در همه ی زبان ها میتونیم واج ها رو به دو طبقه ی اصلی تقسیم کنیم که عبارتند از: الف) طبقه ی همخوان ها و ب) طبقه ی واکه ها. از دیدگاه های مختلفی میشه میان همخوانها و واکه ها تفاوت نهاد: مثلا در تفاوت همخوان و واکه میشه به این مسئله اشاره داشت که در زبان فارسی، فقط  همخوانها در آغاز هجا به کار میروند.
در نظام واجی زبان فارسی، شش واکه وجود داره:
/a/; /e/; /o/; /*â/; /u/; /i/
 بیست سه همخوان
/b/; /p/; /t/; /s/; /j/; /č/; /h/; /x/; /d/; /z/; /r/; /ž/; /š /; /ʔ/; /q/; /f/; /k/; /g/; /l/; /m/; /n/; /v/; /y/.
/ketâb/; /ruz/; /kušeš/: کتاب، روز، کوشش*


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## colognial

I see now. Thank you, Aloyalfriend. Are these symbols supposed to be used when spelling names? For instance, do we spell قاجار as qâjâr?


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## Aloyalfriend

colognial said:


> I see now. Thank you, Aloyalfriend. Are these symbols supposed to be used when spelling names? For instance, do we spell قاجار as qâjâr?


You are welcome.
Yes.
واج نگاریِ داده های زبان فارسی مستلزم دانستن قواعد ویژه ای هستش از جمله:
در واج نگاری هیچگاه دو واکه کنار هم قرار نمی گیرند. بر این اساس، لغت زیر اشتباه هست:
nemi*âyam
و لغت زیر صحیح است:
nemiâ
.  قرار دهیم./ʔ/  در واج نگاری هر گاه پیش از واکه ی واقع در اول هجا، همخوانی وجود نداشت، قبل از واکه، اول هجا علامت 
چونکه در زبان فارسی هجا نمی تونه با واکه آغاز بشه. بر این اساس، نمونه ی زیر اشتباهه:
âmadam
و نمونه ی زیر صحیح:
ʔâmadam
در ارتباط با صورت های زبانی ای که در آنها همخوانی مشدد تلفظ میشه، همخوان مورد نظر رو در واج نگاری دو بار مینویسیم:
moʔallem
ه ملفوظ در آخر واژه ها در واج نگاری در نظر گرفته نمیشه:
šanbe- panjare
*


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## colognial

Thanks Aloyalfriend. This is quite fascinating. Only, I don't understand how *nemiâ *can be correct by the rules of "vajnegari"? Did you perhaps mean *nemyâ?*


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## PersoLatin

Hi Aloyalfriend,

As far as you know, has نظام واج نگارى been developed in order to help with transliteration of Persian to Latin?



Aloyalfriend said:


> واج نگاریِ داده های زبان فارسی مستلزم دانستن قواعد ویژه ای هستش از جمله:
> در واج نگاری هیچگاه دو واکه کنار هم قرار نمی گیرند. بر این اساس، لغت زیر اشتباه هست:
> nemi*âyam*


So what's the correct version of nemiâyam?



Aloyalfriend said:


> ه ملفوظ در آخر واژه ها در واج نگاری در نظر گرفته نمیشه:
> šanbe- panjare


what do you mean by this please?


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## colognial

I think maybe Aloyalfriend means ه غیرملفوظ rather than ملفوظ.


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## PersoLatin

^ Well spotted colognial, it makes sense now.


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## colognial

The rules of vaaj-negaari do provide us with a phonetic alphabet specifically designed for Persian, and can serve as a guide for spelling a Persian introduction to foreign languages written in the Latin alphabet. However, I still think that in the case of spelling one's own name with its peculiar sounds, one may well opt for using what letters are available in the foreign language and be happy with one's chosen design.


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## Aloyalfriend

colognial said:


> I think maybe Aloyalfriend means ه غیرملفوظ rather than ملفوظ.


Yes.


PersoLatin said:


> As far as you know, has نظام واج نگارى been developed in order to help with transliteration of Persian to Latin?


Yes.
زبان شناسان برای ثبت داده های زبانی از خطوط متداول زبانهای بشری استفاده نمی کنند بلکه غالبا از دو نوع نظام نوشتاری بهره می جویند که از درجات متفاوتی از دقت برای ثبت این داده ها بر‌خورداند؛ این دو نوع نظام نوشتاری که مورد استفاده تخصصی زبان شناسان قرار میگیرند، یکی خط آوانگار
Phonetic transcription
و دیگری خط واج نگار
Phonological transcription
نام دارند.


colognial said:


> Thanks Aloyalfriend. This is quite fascinating. Only, I don't understand how *nemiâ *can be correct by the rules of "vajnegari"? Did you perhaps mean *nemyâ?*


My bad.
This is the correct form:
*nemiʔâyam*


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## PersoLatin

Aloyalfriend said:


> This is the correct form:
> nemiʔâyam


I can not understand why /?/ is there at all, nemiâyam works perfectly well, same goes for âmadan, why ?âmadan? (The second ? is a question mark). I can see why you'd need something for تعاون i.e. ta?âvon, also why use /?/ and not something less confusing.

Either I don't understand it or نظام واج نگارى is not a well thought out نظام after all.


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## molana

^In Farsi, a syllable never begins with a vowel.
آب has 3 phonemes. [?âb]
The native Farsi speakers pronounce the word _star_, as you know, [?s+târ] instead of [stâr].
The possible syllables in Modern Persian:
cv(c(c))
But in English:
(((c)c)c)v(c(c(c(c))))strengths[strɛŋθs]


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## PersoLatin

^ Thank you. 

Other than the book by آزيتا افراشى, is there any other source, like a website for this, please?


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## Treaty

The main transliteration guideline is the one used by UN. You can find it here. The main difference is using a bar (ā) instead of circumflex (â) for long آ and ' instead of ʔ for glottal stop. However, regarding the vowel differences in different dialects, it is common to use bar above other vowels to distinguish them from their short version (ē, ī, ō, ū).

Anyway, there is a confusion in this thread between Romanisation and phonetic transcription. From a strict technical viewpoint, you may put the glottal stop in the beginning of a word in _phonetic _transcription (there was a discussion here about this as well). However, it is unnecessary and may not even be accurate. Nevertheless, it would be utterly wrong and unnecessary to do it for Romanisation (even in Arabic they don't do it). In the middle of compound words, it is again unnecessary and probably confusing to put glottal stop sign.For example, in words like می آیم it is more important mark the separation of می and آیم (e.g., like mī-āyam) rather than the existence of a glottal stop between ی and آ (which actually doesn't even exist).

By the way, formal Persian has seven vowels not six. The seventh (ō as in دور _dōr_) is not given the due recognition, probably because of the dogma of understanding Persian through the Arabic six-vowel system (almost all instances of ō in Persian are Arabic _aw_- loanword).


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## colognial

Treaty said:


> Anyway, there is a confusion in this thread between Romanisation and phonetic transcription.



Well said treaty. Of course, transliteration provides a sort of a guide for spelling in Romanized form. However, one couldn't abide by phonetic rules every time and get away with it. The reason for this is that there already is a tradition of Romanizing in place. Besides, I can't help feeling that the particular vaaj negaari we have been introduced to here may have unnecessary complications. آب for instance could be represented by *âb*, pure and simple.


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## PersoLatin

There is a need for a convention so that the join between ی & آ in mi-âyam (می آیم) is read correctly and is distinguished from the same combination, in m*iâ*m (میام) or m*iâ*n (میان). This almost always applies to verbs starting with â *آ*, AND, when they are combined (conjugated) with mi می/nemi نمی. All other verbs including those starting with a/e/o - ا, are unaffected.
For demonstration purposes, I will use /-/, to mark the separation, examples:

Separation needed:
mi-âvaradam می‌آوردم ‏ but miâram میارم
mi-âyam  می آیم  but miâm میام

miâvaradam should then be considered as undesirable, the same as its Perso-Arabic version, میاوردم.

Separation not needed:
miafkanam می‌افکنم
miandâzam می‌اندازم
mizanam می‌زنم

Compounds and other words with ی & آ:
âsiâb آسیاب
daryâftam دریافتم ‏


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## PersoLatin

Treaty said:


> The seventh (ō as in دور _dōr_) is not given the due recognition, probably because of the dogma of understanding Persian through the Arabic six-vowel system (almost all instances of ō in Persian are Arabic _aw_- loanword).


Correct, examples: Ferdôsi-فردوسی gôhar-گوهر and qôm- قوم, zôb-ذوب


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## molana

It is more correct to call *[ow]* a diphthong, and not a vowel. In the past, it was pronounced [av] or [aw].
*روشن*[rowšan]
*گوهر*[gowhar]
*جور*[jowr]
(*رو*(=بن مضارع[row]

Farsi also has another diphthong:*[ey]*. Actually, it was pronounced [ay] in the past.
*می*[mey]
*وی*[vey]
*شیدا*[šeydā]
Therefore, there exist 6 vowels and 2 diphthongs in Modern Persian.
Diphthongs

Many phonologists believe that there are certain hiatuses in Farsi, too.


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## Treaty

[ō] is not a diphthong. For being a diphthong, two _different_ vowels are needed. You don't make a diphthong by stretching one vowel. It was pronounced [aw] in past and in present eastern dialects. However, we are talking about present Persian. Regarding vowels preceding [y] (and not just [ey] but also [ay], [uy], etc.), [y] is usually considered a consonant in Persian. Nevertheless, the situation is different for informal Persian.


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## Alfaaz

Relevant thread discussing _diphthongs _and pronunciation changes (compared to Classical, Afghani, and Indo-Persian) in Irani Persian: Persian: /ow/, /oo/. 

(Post #14 provides a concise summary of the differences.)


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## Aloyalfriend

Treaty said:


> By the way, formal Persian has seven vowels not six. The seventh (ō as in دور _dōr_) is not given the due recognition, probably because of the dogma of understanding Persian through the Arabic six-vowel system (almost all instances of ō in Persian are Arabic _aw_- loanword).



Persian has six vowels namely [i,u,o,e,a,æ]. The number of vowels are different among Persian dialects. A loanword is pronounced based on the target language phonological rules. Sometimes a sound is borrowed from another language, but during the historical changes of a language phonology, the sound changes. For the above example, the middle vowel is produced as , if it means "far distance". To be certain how a sound is pronounced, you can check what is the origin of a word, if its Arabic, as its mentioned above, there are two method of pronouncing it. 
If you need more explanation, do not hesitate to ask me.
Warm regards.


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## Treaty

I'm not sure what your post was supposed to add or respond to mine. I think it is obvious that _dōr _in my post means "around" or "spin" not "far". In formal Iranian Persian (FIP), the long [o] (which I wrote as [ō]) is a vowel of its own merit (more examples provided in #33 and #34). Of course, in regional dialects and Dari/Tajik it is pronounced differently like [aʊ] or [əʊ]. While there is no problem to Romanise this vowel as [ow], it is problematic to phonetically transcribe it as [ow] because FIP doesn't have [w] to begin with. In any case, whether a stretched monophthong or a diphthong, it is still a distinct vowel.

This vowel is not usually recognised duly even in academia. In my opinion, a reason is that it doesn't have a single-symbol representation in the Perso-Arabic script. This is, in turn, because it didn't exist in the parent Arabic alphabet. Due to the script's abjad system (i.e., low regard to vowels) the need to add a sign or letter for this vowel (and also ē) was never crossed in the minds of our ancestors (unlike the need to add پ گ چ ژ). Another reason is probably that a number of both domestic and foreign linguists are still more interested in the late classical Persian than the modern Persian.


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## cherine

Moderator reminder:
Dear all,
This thread is (supposed to be) about the transliteration of ق not all the letters and sounds of Persians. Please try to foccus on the topic to keep the thread helpful and useful for everyone. And anyone is welcome to open another thread for any related -or non-related- topic.

Regards,
Cherine


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## Aloyalfriend

PersoLatin said:


> I can not understand why /?/ is there at all, nemiâyam works perfectly well, same goes for âmadan, why ?âmadan? (The second ? is a question mark). I can see why you'd need something for تعاون i.e. ta?âvon, also why use /?/ and not something less confusing.
> 
> Either I don't understand it or نظام واج نگارى is not a well thought out نظام after all





PersoLatin said:


> Other than the book by آزيتا افراشى, is there any other source, like a website for this, please?



The book 'Persian Language Structure' written by Afrashi is one of the availabe books about Persian Structure and some concepts related to Persian sounds. If you need more information please refer to Persian Phonetic and Phonology books as Samareh, Haghshenas and Modarresi.
This sound /*ʔ*/ is named 'glottal stop'. It means that the place of articulation for this sound is at glottis and its manner of articulation is stopping.
Also its orthography is different from question mark /?/. 
 There are different ideas regarding it among phoneticians. As any Persian word doesn't start with vowels, this sound (as some believe it's borrowed from Arabic alphabet) is inserted at the beginning of the words started with vowels. 
For the word "تعاون", based on Samareh, the same symbol as for 'glottal stop' is used for ع, but in other phonetc books, another symbol can be seen and the first one is more common to use.


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## Aloyalfriend

Treaty said:


> I'm not sure what your post was supposed to add or respond to mine


It was supposed to mean that Persian has 6 vowels, not 7.


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## molana

PersoLatin said:


> Other than the book by آزيتا افراشى, is there any other source, like a website for this, please?


۱. نگاهی بر پایه‌هایِ واج‌شناسی – دستورِ زبانِ پارسی

This website is at the same time in Persian, English and German. It has different parts, including phonology, morphology, terminology, roots of Persian verbs, and grammar in a very real sense.


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