# mnemonics for genders



## broglet

many people know the only six French words ending in 'age' that are feminine, or the only word ending in 'ence' (and the only one ending in 'ée') that is masculine, but does anyone know any other useful ways of remembering genders?


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## Katemonster

Personally, I don't find those lists useful, but find rather that by dint of hearing enough times, for example
_Chaux blanche_ ou _ciment blanc  _I get a (not entirely reliable) feeling for which is which.

PS Is it musee ?


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## MarionM

As far as I'm aware there are at least three nouns ending in -ée that are masculine:
un musée
un lycée
un camée.


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## broglet

Thanks Marion - but only one masculine '-ence' and six feminine '-ages'!  D'accord?  Any other ideas?


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## MarionM

I'm sorry, I really don't know about this - I never had to consciously learn noun genders. And I'm really happy about it


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## john_riemann_soong

I never worry about it, it should be just intuition... the thing to do when encountering new words or nouns is to articulate them. Generally this makes it easy for the word to replay in your head (with all its article-bearing glory) to deduce the gender.  

Of course, what happens in exams is that you may bump into a whole host of vocabulary that one you have never encountered before ... that's the only practical reason I can think of for having lists or special methods.


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## broglet

I absolutely agree, john, but I learnt French many years ago, and my teachers were silly enough to tell me that the French for "beach" was "plage (f.)" instead of saying it was "la plage".  Now I always try to learn French words with an article attached, and so should everybody, but lists and mnemonics are useful backup weapons in the war of the genders!


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## itka

Have a look there :

http://www.fourmilab.ch/francais/gender.html


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## geostan

MarionM said:


> As far as I'm aware there are at least three nouns ending in -ée that are masculine:
> un musée
> un lycée
> un camée.



Here are others: androcée, apogée, athénée, caducée, camée, colisée,
conopée, coryphée, écomusée, empyrée, gynécée, hyménée, hypogée, lépidostée, lépisostée, macchabée, mausolée, nymphée, périgée, périnée, 
pongée, propylée, protée, prytanée, pygmée, scarabée, sigisbée, spondée,
trochée, trophée, zée

Granted, many of these words are esoteric, but they do make clear that it is difficult to give rules for gender.

One of my favourite endings for exceptions is ette. Most nouns are feminine, but how about le squelette, le quartette and le quintette?

As for the six feminine nouns in -age, they are to my knowledge:
cage, page, plage, rage, image, hypallage. Although there may be others.


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## Markus

Most -ion words are feminine. There are plenty of exceptions but it's upwards of 90% I believe. Un avion, un camion, un bastion ...


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## broglet

geostan said:


> As for the six feminine nouns in -age, they are to my knowledge:
> cage, page, plage, rage, image, hypallage. Although there may be others.


Really, geostan! Hypallage is masculine - I thought everyone knew that! But, even if this disagrees with you, thank you for questioning my answer. "Nage", on the other hand, is feminine.


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## broglet

Markus said:


> Most -ion words are feminine. There are plenty of exceptions but it's upwards of 90% I believe. Un avion, un camion, un bastion ...


un lion, un thon, un bon, un con ...

Interestingly, most words for male sexual organs are feminine, and vice versa.


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## Markus

broglet said:


> un lion, un thon, un bon, un con ...
> 
> Interestingly, most words for male sexual organs are feminine, and vice versa.



*-i*on. 

Un penis? Or you mean the less scientific ones?


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## geostan

broglet said:


> Really, geostan! Hypallage is masculine - I thought everyone knew that! But, even if this disagrees with you, thank you for questioning my answer. "Nage", on the other hand, is feminine.



Try again. I know it should be masculine, because of the ending, but if you check a reputable dictionary, I'm certain you will find that it is feminine. And of course, nage is also feminine. I was using my memory to come up with six feminine nouns in -age.

Cheers!


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## broglet

Well, I'm going to give you seven marks out of six anyway, just in case Oxford-Hachette isn't as reputable as I thought it was


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## broglet

Markus said:


> *-i*on.
> 
> Un penis? Or you mean the less scientific ones?


a rare exception accompanied by testicule!  But how about le vagin, le clitoris, le mamelon, le sein, la prostate ... and, of course, many of the "rude" ones


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## geostan

broglet said:


> Well, I'm going to give you seven marks out of six anyway, just in case Oxford-Hachette isn't as reputable as I thought it was



Type in "une hypallage" along with the quotes in Google. Several sites will come up confirming the gender of this figure of speech.

Cheers!


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## broglet

Indeed.  But the gender of this unusual word might have got people wrong. It is certainly uncertain whether it is masculine or feminine and it might qualify as the most androgynous word in the French language.  Anyway, in view of your lack of gratitude I have decided to reduce your score to 6.5 sur 6.


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## pyan

I enjoyed reading all these posts.

My greengrocer told me all fruits which end in e are feminine, sauf pamplemousse, and I found that useful.  I have been told, but have not checked, that every English county is masculine except Cornwall.

Like Katemonster, I find an adjective easier to use as a handle to anchor the gender in my brain.  In my head I often use 'blanc',  'blanche', 'beau' or 'belle' even if they inappropriate.  They stick better than 'un' or 'une', 'le' or 'la'.


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## john_riemann_soong

pyan said:


> I enjoyed reading all these posts.
> 
> My greengrocer told me all fruits which end in e are feminine, sauf pamplemousse, and I found that useful.  I have been told, but have not checked, that every English county is masculine except Cornwall.



How does French determine the gender of foreign regions? I mean, does it determine the gender of every new county East Timor creates?


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## Fred_C

john_riemann_soong said:


> How does French determine the gender of foreign regions? I mean, does it determine the gender of every new county East Timor creates?


That is a very good question, and it is not ridiculous, nor is it restricted to the French language.
I think the answer lies in the fact that most of the time, noun gender is not related to the meaning of words, but to their morphology.
the more abstract a word is, the more accurate this idea is : for example, every noun ending in "isme" is masculine, whatever they mean.
Countries or region are always abstract entities, and therefore, their genders must be choses uncounsciously through analogies :
For example, "Cornouaille" (Cornwall) is feminine because it sounds like a french words, and it ends in "ille".
On the contrary, "Sussex" is masculine because the pronounced X ending is rare in French, and even more when it comes to feminine nouns ending in X.
There are no rules, but always analogies, that make people choose a gender with no hesitation.


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## doodlebugger

broglet said:


> Really, geostan! Hypallage is masculine - I thought everyone knew that! But, even if this disagrees with you, thank you for questioning my answer. "Nage", on the other hand, is feminine.


 
To add to the confusion, you say _un anthropophage _for a man but _une anthropophage _for a woman.
The same goes for all the _-phage _ending nouns (except _sarcophage_ of course).

And we say _*le *Timor Oriental_, don't ask me why!


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## Tresley

Some words that relate to human beings can be either masculine or feminine, such as: enfant, adepte, colocataire, locataire, lâche, complice etc. All these words relate to human beings and the gender changes according to the context.

However, as far as I know, there is only "après-midi" that can be either masculine or feminine according to personal preference.

For example:

Sometimes I see 'cet après-midi' and sometimes I see 'cette après-midi'.

Am I correct in thinking that this is the only noun that doesn't refer to human beings where the gender can change? Or, are there others...?


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## broglet

there is also the peculiarity of an organ, which is masculine, while its plural is feminine: un orgue, les grandes orgues


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## esprit

À ma connaissance, tous les noms *finissant en -tion sont féminins*.  

Quelqu'un a mentionné -ion, mais comme on a vu il y a plein d'exceptions.  

Pour -tion, j'en connais pas d'exceptions (mais mon vocab est limité aussi).  

Aussi, en traduisant de l'anglais, j'ai remarqué que presque tous les mots qui finissent en -tion sont les mêmes en anglais/français... sauf quelques un... comme vacances/vacation...

 bon soir 
-esprit


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## Tresley

broglet said:


> there is also the peculiarity of an organ, which is masculine, while its plural is feminine: un orgue, les grandes orgues


 
Hi Broglet,

I had forgotten all about that one!  But I did remember that there were THREE words like that (masculine in the singular and feminine in the plural).  I had to go running for my old French book...

Here they are:

L'amour (m) / les amours (f)
Le délice (m) / les délices (f)
L'orgue (m) / les orgues (f)

But, is 'après-midi' the only word (not describing a human being) that can be masculine or feminine?


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## Markus

esprit said:


> À ma connaissance, tous les noms *finissant en -tion sont féminins*.
> 
> Quelqu'un a mentionné -ion, mais comme on a vu il y a plein d'exceptions.
> 
> Pour -tion, j'en connais pas d'exceptions (mais mon vocab est limité aussi).
> 
> Aussi, en traduisant de l'anglais, j'ai remarqué que presque tous les mots qui finissent en -tion sont les mêmes en anglais/français... sauf quelques un... comme vacances/vacation...
> 
> bon soir
> -esprit



un bastion (mais tu as raison il y en a peu)


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## Agnès E.

Oui, mais les noms masculins en -tion se prononcent -tion, alors que les féminins se prononcent -ssion. C'est un bon moyen de se souvenir, si on sait les prononcer.


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## john_riemann_soong

Eh, that's a good way as one can often tell by their English cognates ...


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## john_riemann_soong

Agnès E. said:


> Oui, mais les noms masculins en -tion se prononcent -tion, alors que les féminins se prononcent -ssion. C'est un bon moyen de se souvenir, si on sait les prononcer.



Wait, I just realised "la question" has the same phonetic ending as "le bastion"...


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## Agnès E.

Because it is a -stion word, not a -tion one.


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## broglet

Mais c'est toujours vrai que tous les mots finissant en -tion qui se prononcent -ssion sont féminins!!   N'est-ce pas?


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## Agnès E.

J'ai essayé de faire une liste dans ma tête et je dirais oui... sauf si la syllabe -tion est précédée d'un s, naturellement. 

Mais attendons l'avis d'experts plus avertis que moi en linguistique.


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## broglet

Agnès E. said:


> ... sauf si la syllabe -tion est précédée d'un s, naturellement.


... mais alors la prononciation n'est pas "-ssion"!


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## Misccold

MarionM said:


> As far as I'm aware there are at least three nouns ending in -ée that are masculine:
> un musée
> un lycée
> un camée.


Et apogée, périgée, trophée, pedigrée... Et sûrement d'autres. 
Désolée de vous embrouiller.


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## john_riemann_soong

Agnès E. said:


> Because it is a -stion word, not a -tion one.



Okay, I think I know a few words that are masculine and end in -tion, but I can't remember them at the moment ... I thought when you said "-tion" and not "ssion" (I had been thinking about this for days), I thought you meant that the masculine "-tion" was literally pronoucned [tjɔ~] (ty-on) as opposed to [ʃjɔ~] (shion). 

Apparently I was trying too hard to try to find a "literal T" -ion phoneme, but it would be like "-tion" in English?


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## Markus

Agnès, both la question and le bastion are -stion words!


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## Gez

Tresley said:


> But, is 'après-midi' the only word (not describing a human being) that can be masculine or feminine?



Depending on how strict your definition of human being is, you can add words such as "ange," "elfe" and "gnome." 


Also, words in -cule and -ite often confuse even the natives. I still tend to say (while speaking, not in writing) "une tentacule" or "un météorite" (both are wrong).


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## broglet

I suppose that it's time to mention that both victime and personne are feminine, even when it turns out that "Le très masculin Monsieur Duval est la personne qui était la victime".  And there are words like le médecin that are always masculine.  Are there many others like these?


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## Agnès E.

What I said in French in my post #28 is the following:

As for words ending by -tion, if they are masculine you have to pronounce the -tion as it is written, with a _T_. If they are feminine, the T is pronounce like a double _S _(attention, mémorisation, punition, cotisation, ponctuation, ponction, addition, soustraction, multiplication...)
I added that it's a good way to find the gender, as long as you know the pronunciation, obviously!
I said nothing more. 

Someone spoke about _question_, which is a feminine word, but where the -tion syllable is preceeded by an _S_. I then pointed out that if there is an S before the -tion syllable, the latter is pronounced _T_, not like a double _S_. This is the reason why _bastion_ and _question_ are pronounced with _T_ (bas-t-ion, ques-t-ion) and not according to their gender.

I just gave you a pattern, according to the thread topic.


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## john_riemann_soong

Agnès E. said:


> What I said in French in my post #28 is the following:
> 
> As for words ending by -tion, if they are masculine you have to pronounce the -tion as it is written, with a _T_. If they are feminine, the T is pronounce like a double _S _(attention, mémorisation, punition, cotisation, ponctuation, ponction, addition, soustraction, multiplication...)
> I added that it's a good way to find the gender, as long as you know the pronunciation, obviously!
> I said nothing more.
> 
> Someone spoke about _question_, which is a feminine word, but where the -tion syllable is preceeded by an _S_. I then pointed out that if there is an S before the -tion syllable, the latter is pronounced _T_, not like a double _S_. This is the reason why _bastion_ and _question_ are pronounced with _T_ (bas-t-ion, ques-t-ion) and not according to their gender.
> 
> I just gave you a pattern, according to the thread topic.



How did this phonology arise anyway? English preserves many of the Old French pronunciations (e.g. the hard *ch* in chair, [*t*ʃ]) but I am unsure which of the French phonemes have been changed in English and which have been preserved. 

Especially because English as you know generally pronounces the -tion suffix with a [ʃən], and I think regardless of its gender of the French cognate. I'm curious whether this pronunciation is faithful to the Old French pronunciation, and that modern French split the phonemes based on gender, or whether English simplified them and merged them (well, especially since we no longer have a gender-noun system). Were the nasal vowels (or the final "n", or lack thereof) in the Old French words anyway? I'm wondering what the process was. It's because the phonemes are gender-specific that I'm wondering. 

I'm also curious if we invented our own euphony for ease of pronunciation., especially since the pronunciation does not literally follow the spelling (which tends to be a sign of imported influence, and hence rare to be from our own invention).  

There's an English word "mansion", which also uses the [ʃ] pronunciation, as opposed to the [s] one. It remains a word (of very limited use) in French, as I see, of feminine gender and as such would use the [s] pronunciation ... again I am curious about which side of the Channel the divergence occurred.


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