# coeducation



## Bonjules

Hola,
I'm amazed the search doesn't show much.
Is it so common (mixed gender schools at middle/highschool level) that it is accepted as gospel?
Why is it (supposed to be) so great?
After going to an all boys school myself and suffering
through putting various children through mixed schools
I am not convinced it is a great idea. Endless preoccupations with 'popularity', with having to have the latest 'cool' clothes ( to be fair, that might happen anyway unless you had uniforms), but most of all -
what exactly is the great advantage?
Tell me!


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## Layzie

I can't imagine going to a school without girls. I'd be less willing to go because I'd have nothing to look forward to.


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## JamesM

From a purely practical standpoint, half as many school campuses.    In a non-egalitarian society it also guarantees females access to the same education that males get.

I don't know that there's any great advantage.  It's more a function of what the standard set-up is in your country, I suppose.


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## muselinazi

Most people in industrialized Western societies are not segregated along lines of gender, neither at work nor indeed  in most aspects of their daily life. I guess the advantage of coeducational schools is that students develop relationships and interact with both sexes in their peer group. Being able to communicate with the opposite sex is fundamental necessity of everyday/adult life. 
I'm sure students in same-sex schools develop these skills too but maybe co-ed kids get a headstart.
With regards to the problems you mention, I think your average coeducational public school is like a microcosm of society at large. The problems and inequities within the school tend to mirror those within the society.


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## muselinazi

I remember reading about a study once which claimed that boys perform better academically in coeducational schools while girls perform better in sex-segregated ones.


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## Etcetera

muselinazi said:


> Most people in industrialized Western societies are not segregated along lines of gender, neither at work nor indeed  in most aspects of their daily life. I guess the advantage of coeducational schools is that students develop relationships and interact with both sexes in their peer group. Being able to communicate with the opposite sex is fundamental necessity of everyday/adult life.


Yes, I remember reading an article where this feature was called the greatest advantage of co-educational schools. 
But... I'd certainly prefer to attend a single-sex school. Every time I remember the boys in the schools I attended, especially the first one...


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## Kajjo

Bonjules said:


> Is it so common (mixed gender schools at middle/highschool level) that it is accepted as gospel? Why is it (supposed to be) so great?


There is actually no German translation for "co-education", because the concept is foreign to us.  The term "co-education" in itself sounds funny and constructed to me.

Personally, I see no point whatsoever why anyone should want to educate children separated by gender, when their whole life will have to be lived in presence of the other sex. School needs to prepare and educate children with the real world in mind. Children are raised gender-mixed, they play gender-mixed (or, maybe they do not someplace?), they go on holidays swimming and hiking gender-mixed. 

Why are there no separate supermarkets for men and women?
Why are there no separate buses and trains for men and women?
Why are there no separate universities for men and women?

I guess, the term "co-education" and the concept of separating children by gender stems from very old-fashioned, conservative role models. 

Kajjo


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## Bonjules

Kajjo said:


> There is actually no German translation for "co-education", because the concept is foreign to us. The term "co-education" in itself sounds funny and constructed to me.
> 
> Personally, I see no point whatsoever why anyone should want to educate children separated by gender, when their whole life will have to be lived in presence of the other sex. School needs to prepare and educate children with the real world in mind. Children are raised gender-mixed, they play gender-mixed (or, maybe they do not someplace?), they go on holidays swimming and hiking gender-mixed.
> Kajjo


 
This of course is the central question and I come to the opposite
conclusion after having seen the reality of it up close (although the beauty of it seems so temptingly obvious for someone - like you and me- who came from a place where it is 'foreign').
1. Do children have to be 'taught' to relate to one the other sex at that age? There are plenty opportunities and activities, like you yourself enumerate outside of school where they meet anyway.
2. Is school the best place? For those children who are eager learners
'naturally', the distraction of having to define one's place in the popularity and 'clique' games is maybe little more than an annoying distraction. For all those who have to struggle a bit to stay focussed
on learning it might become a serious problem.
We are talking about an age of great change, a lot of insecurity and emotional upheaval already, without any additional burdens.
School could be a great place for quiet stability and focus on something different.....learning, for example
3. What is the 'real' world? Gimme a break!
The world of celebrity, sex selling and pervading every aspect of life,
of having to scrutinize which is exactly the correct crocodile on your
T-shirt that will notch you up or down accordingly in the school-societal acceptance scale?
But your comment is faily typical of someone who hasn't been in
that 'real world' lately.
I know we have quite a few people here who spend a lot of time
in the schools. Will we hear from them?


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## Etcetera

Kajjo said:


> Why are there no separate supermarkets for men and women?
> Why are there no separate buses and trains for men and women?
> Why are there no separate universities for men and women?


Well, in fact, there are separate compartments for men and women in some long-distance trains. I've learnt about them quite recently, and I liked the idea immensely, but, funnily enough, I always forget about it when I come to buy a ticket. 
As for universities, yes, there aren't separate universities for men and women, but on most faculties there's a clear "segregation". For example, there are quite a few boys at my Faculty of Philology, but Faculty of Physics has very few female students.


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## palomnik

I went to an all-male secondary school.  I don't feel that I missed anything.  If anything, I think it helped me to respect women more than I might if I was in a coeducational school, with all the social overtones that go along with it.  There was considerably less discipline problems there than in coeducational schools too.

In short, I think it can be argued either way.


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## sarcie

I have to say, having experienced both, that I would have preferred to stay in a co-ed environment for the whole of my time at school. 



Kajjo said:


> School needs to prepare and educate children with the real world in mind.



This is my main argument as well - I noticed, and was quite astonished at the reactions of the large majority of my peer group upon entering our first year of university together. It wasn't that the two sexes had any problems interacting - it was more the fact that you could tell those that had been to a co-ed secondary school immediately, because they interacted the same way with everyone. 



Bonjules said:


> Endless preoccupations with 'popularity', with having to have the latest 'cool' clothes ( to be fair, that might happen anyway unless you had uniforms)



Believe me, and I cannot stress this enough, because it seems to be a common misconception - this happens in single-sex schools too. Even those with uniforms. When you're encouraged to look the same, there is more impetus to stand out from the crowd. Even if it's just wearing your hair a certain way, or buying a particular brand of shoes (which may look the same as all the other shoes, with the exception of the name on the side). 



Bonjules said:


> 1. Do children have to be 'taught' to relate to one the other sex at that age? There are plenty opportunities and activities, like you yourself enumerate outside of school where they meet anyway.



In my experience, the older children (the one's who need to be taught to relate to the opposite sex, in my opinion) receive far too little opportunity to interact with others in their peer group outside school. This may be specific to the part of Ireland I grew up in, but my acquaintances at that time were almost exclusively from school.


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## Bonjules

Etcetera said:


> Well, in fact, there are separate compartments for men and women in some long-distance trains. I've learnt about them quite recently, and I liked the idea immensely, but, funnily enough, I always forget about it when I come to buy a ticket.
> As for universities, yes, there aren't separate universities for men and women, but on most faculties there's a clear "segregation". For example, there are quite a few boys at my Faculty of Philology, but Faculty of Physics has very few female students.


Yes, Etc.,
there are entire train wagons(trains?)segregated according to sex in some countries. But I'd like to
to stick to Middle/High School, a confusing and vulnerable time in life.
Universities are also a different matter. Although there are some (all women-) in the US, you can't compare the situation entirely. You are older, on average more secure and have a lot more liberty in arranging your study habits to avoid unwanted situations - or seek the interactions you want. You can also assume, one would hope, that U-students woul be more motivated and focussed to begin with.


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## Bonjules

sarcie said:


> In my experience, the older children (the one's who need to be taught to relate to the opposite sex, in my opinion) receive far too little opportunity to interact with others in their peer group outside school. This may be specific to the part of Ireland I grew up in, but my acquaintances at that time were almost exclusively from school.


Well, scarcie, I can see your point, that is if you come from a rural or scarecly populated area. I a bigger city this was certainly not a problem; it usually offers many opportunities for activities outside school, or simply a varied, populated neighborhood.
But maybe I should be more specific: I have no problem
with gender interaction, even in the same physical space
such as the school yard during breaks (that addresses the concerns of those who fear one would have to build more schools also), and I am not saying that never anything good could come from such an experience. I just don't think it is helpful where
the (academic) learning is supposed to go on, that is in the CLASSROOM. There I think it introduces too many  interferences and distractions.


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## Kajjo

Bonjules said:


> 1. Do children have to be 'taught' to relate to one the other sex at that age?


No, you are misleading here. Children do not have to be taught ro relate, but they should not be hindered in relating to other people and they should see that boys and girls are equal and that there is no need to separate them.


> 2. For those children who are eager learners 'naturally', the distraction of having to define one's place in the popularity.


Sure, and you really believe in all-boys schools the hierachy is less, the fighting for popularity is not present? Simply put, you are very far from coming close to reality.


> 3. What is the 'real' world? Gimme a break! The world of celebrity, sex selling and pervading every aspect of life


Wow! That is a statement. Boys and girls being in school together has absolutely nothing to do with sex pervading your life. Co-educational schools are by far not so sexy as people are made to believe. Is Working together with women also pervading your life with sex? Is traveling by plane with a female person on the neighboring seat pervading your flight with sex? Has your own school time been pervaded with sex? 

Kajjo


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## Bonjules

Kajjo said:


> Boys and girls being in school together has absolutely nothing to do with sex pervading your life. Co-educational schools are by far not so sexy as people are made to believe. Is Working together with women also pervading your life with sex? Is traveling by plane with a female person on the neighboring seat pervading your flight with sex? Has your own school time been pervaded with sex?
> 
> Kajjo


 
No, Kajjo schools are not very sexy, and I suspect co-ed
ones even less so. I think they can be quite frightening, as a matter of fact.
Mine, like probably yours, was not pervaded by sex at all
(we both went to all boys schools, I assume, and I am greatful for having gone to one after what I have seen since).
What I am obviously saying here is that these children do not live in a vacuum. They grow up in an environment where sex is used to sell just about everything, where there exists a general 'culture' of superficiality and celebrity(you may take a look around yourself). They take these things with them, imitate them, think that that's 'where it's at'. Like to have to be 'sexy and attractive' to be 'popular', or that your success in life depends on how 'desirable' you are(a lot of that, in turn, comes from material things). I am not saying that single sex instruction would miraculously wipe all that off the
table, but from what I have seen myself and through my children in mixed schools- it exaggerates the problem greatly. Besides propagating unhealthy attitudes, it distracts, in my opinion, from the learning experience.

PS. Your 'real world' is, and has been for some time a human
construct. You, we, have to decide which values and attitudes in it
we want to encourage and which ones not.


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## muselinazi

Bonjules said:


> What I am obviously saying here is that these children do not live in a vacuum. They grow up in an environment where sex is used to sell just about everything, where there exists a general 'culture' of superficiality and celebrity(you may take a look around yourself). They take these things with them, imitate them, think that that's 'where it's at'. Like to have to be 'sexy and attractive' to be 'popular', or that your success in life depends on how 'desirable' you are(a lot of that, in turn, comes from material things). I am not saying that single sex instruction would miraculously wipe all that off the
> table, but from what I have seen myself and through my children in mixed schools- it exaggerates the problem greatly. Besides propagating unhealthy attitudes, it distracts, in my opinion, from the learning experience.
> 
> PS. Your 'real world' is, and has been for some time a human
> construct. You, we, have to decide which values and attitudes in it
> we want to encourage and which ones not.



I'm not convinced. I went to both single-sex and co-educational schools and I honestly don't believe that the problems you're talking about are either created or exacerbated in co-educational schools. 
The 'real world'- an idea you continue to unreasonably derride- contains two sexes and that is an unavoidable fact, not a human construct. To accuse co-educational schools of propogating unhealthy attitudes seems really illogical to me. Surely such attitudes are drawn from the world at large and the way in which the word is mediated or constructed (to use your word) by the media. _All _teenagers are vulnerable to the problems your posts describe because adolescence is typically a time when kids want to be seen as 'normal', to be seen as by and large conforming to the attitudes, values and image of their peer group. I just don't understand your reasoning.


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## roxcyn

Advantages of same-sex schools:
a) Students can bond with the same sex to establish friendships.
b) Schools (teachers) can customize instruction to that sex.  Some boys may be able to move around or do projects, some girls may be able to explore in depth more issues.  
c) Generally in same sex school, the teachers are usually that sex.  Most male teachers in all male school, most female teachers in all female school (at least I assume).  Therefore, the teacher can relate with how the students.  

Disadvantages:
a) The school may not address sexual issues (between the opposite sex).
b) Students may not have time to bond with the opposite sex.


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## Bonjules

muselinazi said:


> I'm not convinced. I went to both single-sex and co-educational schools and I honestly don't believe that the problems you're talking about are either created or exacerbated in co-educational schools.
> The 'real world'- an idea you continue to unreasonably derride- contains two sexes and that is an unavoidable fact, not a human construct. To accuse co-educational schools of propogating unhealthy attitudes seems really illogical to me. Surely such attitudes are drawn from the world at large and the way in which the word is mediated or constructed (to use your word) by the media. _All _teenagers are vulnerable to the problems your posts describe because adolescence is typically a time when kids want to be seen as 'normal', to be seen as by and large conforming to the attitudes, values and image of their peer group.


Exactly, that's what I said, except at the end. The schools are not responsible for the screwy values and preoccupations
the kids bring from the outside. And these schools are not actively 'propogating' them obviously (bad word choice, if one wants to pounce on it). That boys and girls exist is
obvious, the 'real world' here deals with what they are exposed to
and absorb. Not all of them want to be part this 'peer group', but the pressure, esp. if it gets mixed up with
the boy/girl issue is great, the demand to conform is great.
That is exactly the problem: where a school could provide a relatively 'safe haven' for children to experience -hopefully- the pleasure of learning and develop their own priorities, they have to deal with
all these pressures. Some are very unhappy, some commit suicide. Some learn to survive as social butterflies, but at the expense of ever learnig how to learn.
I am not saying one cannot dig up arguments pro and con for both. The most amazing thing to me is thet there is no public debate raging over this.


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## Bonjules

roxcyn said:


> Disadvantages:
> a) The school may not address sexual issues (between the opposite sex).
> b) Students may not have time to bond with the opposite sex.


Why? I would imagine that Sex Education would not be
any harder, but probably a lot easier in a single sex class.
Why would they have trouble 'bonding'(?) with the other sex, if they so desire? Like I said, where I went, there were only boys or girls schools. We had no trouble seeking the friendships we wanted, after school or in other activities. For those, however, who were not ready
or interested, it was not pushed on them either. What a relief! ("Johnny, you haven't been interested in any of us....is there something 'wrong' with you, maybe''?  We can be very cruel, at all ages...)


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## muselinazi

Bonjules said:


> Exactly, that's what I said, except at the end. The schools are not responsible for the screwy values and preoccupations
> the kids bring from the outside. And these schools are not actively 'propogating' them obviously (bad word choice, if one wants to pounce on it). That boys and girls exist is
> obvious, the 'real world' here deals with they are exposed to
> and absorb. Not all of them want to be part this 'peer group', but the pressure, esp. if it gets mixed up with
> the boy/girl issue is great, the demand to conform is great.
> That is exactly the problem: where a school could provide a relatively 'safe haven' for children to experience -hopefully- the pleasure of learning and develop their own priorities, they have to deal with
> all these pressures. Some are very unhappy, some commit suicide. Some learn to survive as social butterflies, but at the expense of ever learnig how to learn.
> I am not saying one cannot dig up arguments pro and con for both. The most amazing thing to me is thet there is no public debate raging over this.



Essentially what I'm saying is that a school's ability to provide such a 'safe haven' is not contigent on whether or not it is co-educational. Concerns about popularity and peer-group pressure are pretty universal. So are issues of depression, learning difficulties and teen suicide. If a school is having difficulties establishing a culture of learning and intellectual curiosity within the student body, I would suggest that other factors are involved.
As for the lack of public debate, I think it's because (at least in my country) most middle-class parents have a right to choose how their child is educated (albeit at some financial cost in many instances).


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## TRG

And what about the teachers? I remember one class from high school in which the teacher was a young female who always wore high heels, a short skirt, and tight fitting sweaters. I don't even remember what she taught, but I still remember her 45 years later. It was a major distraction to say the least. I never attended a single sex school nor did any of my children, but I can see some logic to it.


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## Bonjules

Another interesting fact is
(can't cite any numbers, so correct me if I'm wrong)
that among expensive private schools, the percentage
of single-sex seems much higher. I wonder why.


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## Kajjo

Bonjules said:


> Another interesting fact is that among expensive private schools, the percentage of single-sex seems much higher. I wonder why.


Because rich and conservative parents are afraid of "sex pervading the life" as you called it. Keeping their young ones from all _perceived _evils... usually with emotional damage, by the way.

Kajjo


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## Kajjo

muselinazi said:


> Essentially [...] a school's ability to provide a 'safe haven' is not contigent on whether or not it is co-educational. Concerns about popularity and peer-group pressure are pretty universal. So are issues of depression, learning difficulties and teen suicide. If a school is having difficulties establishing a culture of learning and intellectual curiosity within the student body, I would suggest that other factors are involved.


I could not agree more!

Many schools nowadays have problems -- but they cannot be solved by superficial actions like separation by gender. Most problems arise due to drastic differences of the social and cultural background, a lack of discipline and a lack of parental influence and education. A school is not supposed to replace parents, but to convey knowledge.

Kajjo


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## Riccardino

In the USA there are single-sex colleges - the 7 sisters colleges for example, though some of them have gone co-ed. I don't think there's any all-male schools left, though, correct me if I'm wrong.


I myself went to an all-male highschool. It was nice for the drama of highschool to be non-existent, and to not have to care about your appearance. But, I wouldn't say it helped me concentrate better.

There were quite a few negatives. During highschool I had practically no female friends or interaction with girls that weren't my sisters. 2 years removed, these effects still linger as my social skills with females are still lacking.


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## roxcyn

Bonjules said:


> Another interesting fact is
> (can't cite any numbers, so correct me if I'm wrong)
> that among expensive private schools, the percentage
> of single-sex seems much higher. I wonder why.



At least in the USA, the public schools get funding from the government so that they are not allowed to discriminate baised on gender, race, religion, and sexual orientation.  That is why I think there are no same-sex public schools in USA (they are private or self-funded).


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## roxcyn

Bonjules said:


> Why? I would imagine that Sex Education would not be
> any harder, but probably a lot easier in a single sex class.
> Why would they have trouble 'bonding'(?) with the other sex, if they so desire? Like I said, where I went, there were only boys or girls schools. We had no trouble seeking the friendships we wanted, after school or in other activities. For those, however, who were not ready
> or interested, it was not pushed on them either. What a relief! ("Johnny, you haven't been interested in any of us....is there something 'wrong' with you, maybe''?  We can be very cruel, at all ages...)



I was refering to the schools may not address the issues of safe sex, sexual education, and education of the opposite sex (males about their own bodies and then learning about the female bodies).  However, I think it would depend on the schools, and all.  As I was saying in the USA most all gender schools are private (no public funding) and therefore are usually religious based.  Therefore, the schools may think that they do not need to address sexual education.


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## Bonjules

roxcyn said:


> At least in the USA, the public schools get funding from the government so that they are not allowed to discriminate baised on gender, race, religion, and sexual orientation. That is why I think there are no same-sex public schools in USA (they are private or self-funded).


roxyn, why would separate instruction for the 2 sexes constitute discrimination as long as the quality was exactly the same? I don't see that at all.
secondly, who says single sex school or single sex classroom ( I don't care if, for practical reasons they used the same building) would have worse or no sex education? Don't see that either.


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## Chevaux

I must say, the thought of a segregated school is entirely alien to me. I have always gone to a co-ed school, and I can't imagine what my education would have been like without the input of peers from both sexes. 

If one is looking at this subject from an egalitarian point of view, however, I would have to say that a co-ed school doesn't really prepare students for society in the future. Things are entirely different outside of school, and even in the levels of education. In grade school, boys and girls are treated completely alike, but as the grade goes up,  I have seen the system lean towards men. I am now applying for college, and compared to my brother, I have found that I am offered far less scholarships than he was, even though I have superior test scores, a higher GPA and I am a well rounded student, where he was not. There is still the problem in society today with men being paid more than women for doing the same jobs. The attempt to make males and females equal in schools is a worthless attempt if things remain how they are in all other parts of society.

Despite this, I am glad I have gone to co-ed schools my whole life, because it has only confirmed my beliefs that women are equal to men in every way.

(sorry if this has gone off subject, I know I'm kind of splitting hairs on this topic)


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## Bonjules

Kajjo said:


> Because rich and conservative parents are afraid of "sex pervading the life" as you called it. Keeping their young ones from all _perceived _evils... usually with emotional damage, by the way.
> 
> Kajjo


Do people have to be conservative to be rich? 
could it be they prefer single sex classrooms/schools because they get better results?


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