# Egyptian Arabic/MSA: it is necessary/ unnecessary



## londonmasri

Hi I think this means 'it has no need' i.e. there is no need for it.

What if I wanted to say* it is necessary* and *unneccesary* (i think the word is _Daruury_ but I am not sure how to use it)

e.g. How would you translate the following (Egyptian arabic + MSA):

It is unnecessary to eat (I think MSA would be _min aDaruury an ta2kul_?)

It is necessary to eat

Many thanks.


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## Little_LIS

londonmasri said:


> It is unnecessary to eat (I think MSA would be laysa _min aDaruury an ta2kul_?)
> 
> Many thanks.


 
It is necessary to eat (_min aDaruury an ta2kul)_


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## londonmasri

Dr.Susy said:


> It is necessary to eat (_min aDaruury an ta2kul)_


 
Thanks what about the Egyptian Ya ductuura? (or anyone else )


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## Little_LIS

Do you mean in the Egyptian dialect ? If that is what you mean, it will be:

It is necessary to eat (Lazem takol)

It is unnecessary to eat (msh lazem takol) or, maloosh lazma el akl .


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## ayed

_*Dururi tukul*_ it is necessary
*Mish Dururi takul* it is *un*necessary


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## londonmasri

Thanks Dr.Susy and Ayed - those were the ones I was searching for.

Mutashakker


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## ArabianPrincess

Ayed Mish isn't MSA, 

It is
Lais Min Al-dururi an takul - It is unnecessary to eat.

Mish - Mush are used in Gulf / Egyptians dialects.


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## xebonyx

Hey ArabianPrincess, welcome to the forum.

Would it be incorrect to remove the "min" and "al" and simply say:
"*Laysa Daruury....*" ?


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## londonmasri

ArabianPrincess said:


> Ayed Mish isn't MSA,
> 
> It is
> Lais Min Al-dururi an takul - It is unnecessary to eat.
> 
> Mish - Mush are used in Gulf / Egyptians dialects.


 
Thats true.

But I am also looking for the ways to say this in MSA and Egyptian arabic. (I didnt know that gulf dialects use mush also?)


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## Nikola

londonmasri said:


> Thats true.
> 
> But I am also looking for the ways to say this in MSA and Egyptian arabic. (I didnt know that gulf dialects use mush also?)


Gulf dialects usually use mu or mub. The influences of Egyptian and other dialects are strong since in many Gulf states foreigners out number locals.


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## Mr.Slade

Nikola said:


> Gulf dialects usually use mu or mub. The influences of Egyptian and other dialects are strong since in many Gulf states foreigners out number locals.


 
As you say, "mish/mush" can pop up anywhere because of dialect borrowing. But it, along with the verbal circumfix "ma...sh," are common in all African dialects except Hassaniyah and Chadian, and in some Levantine areas (most or all of Palestine and parts of Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria). "Mish/mush" is also used in Yemen.


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## Nikola

Mr.Slade said:


> As you say, "mish/mush" can pop up anywhere because of dialect borrowing. But it, along with the verbal circumfix "ma...sh," are common in all African dialects except Hassaniyah and Chadian, and in some Levantine areas (most or all of Palestine and parts of Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria). "Mish/mush" is also used in Yemen.


My comments were about Gulf Arabic not the other places you mentioned except that features of several dialects are borrowed.
As for Yemen ma sh and mush are used but on a limited basis in the many dialects in Yemen.


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## ayed

ArabianPrincess said:


> Ayed Mish isn't MSA,
> 
> It is
> Lais Min Al-dururi an takul - It is unnecessary to eat.
> 
> Mish - Mush are used in Gulf / Egyptians dialects.


 I didn't say it is MSA.It is in Egyptian dialect
In Gulf, at least in Saudi, "mish"is not commnly used as a negation particle at all.A few people may use it as a matter of new fashion change


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## ayed

xebonyx said:


> Hey ArabianPrincess, welcome to the forum.
> 
> Would it be incorrect to remove the "min" and "al" and simply say:
> "*Laysa Daruury....*" ?


 If you want to drop the preposition"min",don't complete the sentence"to eat" 
what I often hear  :
*ليس من الضروري *often comes at the beginning of a sentence"initial phrases"

If you would like to use it without the prepositon"min" then it usually follows a phrase or comes as an answer or response
(A) Let's take our gun when travelling to that dangerous town!
(B) not necessarily"laisa Dhuruuri" *ليس ضروري/غير* *ضروري*

The preposition "min" is *a partitive particle*(*من* *التبعيضية*)_*min at-tab3eeDhiyyah*_
Consider this 
It is necessary ..No one would translate it as  *ضروري* It would be *من الضروري* the negation particle preceds the negated..
_You private box is full of messeages and couldn't answer your question.._


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## xebonyx

ayed said:


> Consider this
> It is necessary ..No one would translate it as  *ضروري* It would be *من الضروري* the negation particle preceds the negated..



Thanks, I pretty much already knew that, but was making sure. I've had a few friends translate "laysa duruury" as "*its not* necessary". I have to be careful about who I listen to, haha. 



> _You private box is full of messeages and couldn't answer your question.._



Yeah, I need to clear it already..


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## ArabianPrincess

xebonyx said:


> Hey ArabianPrincess, welcome to the forum.
> 
> Would it be incorrect to remove the "min" and "al" and simply say:
> "*Laysa Daruury....*" ?




Hey, thank you.  

Yes it would be incorrect in that sentence. You would not see it written in books that way.

You can say: 
Laysa darurian an takul. (Add _tanwiin_)
or 
Laysa min al-durury an takul.


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## ArabianPrincess

londonmasri said:


> Thats true.
> 
> But I am also looking for the ways to say this in MSA and Egyptian arabic. (I didnt know that gulf dialects use mush also?)



Well in Egyptians dialects they USE Mush.
In Gulf dialects, we use Mu, Mub, Mish/Msh. And yes a lot of gulf people use Msh it depends on where they come from, in Jeddah dialect I hear the word "Mish/Msh" a lot.
Like saying "Msh Ma3gool" which means unbelieveable! Also there are now lots of gulf people advertisements and a lot use Mish, I use Mu, but dad use Mish LOL, weird eh?


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## xebonyx

ArabianPrincess said:


> You can say:
> Laysa darurian an takul. (Add _tanwiin_)



Thanks!


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## ayed

ArabianPrincess said:


> Hey, thank you.
> 
> Yes it would be incorrect in that sentence. You would not see it written in books that way.
> 
> You can say:
> Laysa darurian an takul. (Add _tanwiin_)
> or
> Laysa min al-durury an takul.


 There is a difference between ضروري وضرورياً
It is *necessary* 
It is *necessarily*


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## ArabianPrincess

ayed said:


> I didn't say it is MSA.It is in Egyptian dialect
> In Gulf, at least in Saudi, "mish"is not commnly used as a negation particle at all.A few people may use it as a matter of new fashion change



Okay Egyptians pronounce it as Mush not Mish, they type it as مش but they pronounce it with "u". 
Plus in your sentence you've mixed some of _MSA_ words with eygptians Dialect words (If you know what I mean). So if you wanted it to be a sentence in eygptians dialect, it would be _Mush Lazmak takul._
I live in Saudi as well, and trust me I hear a lot of people use Msh/Mish as well.


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## cherine

ArabianPrincess said:


> Okay Egyptians pronounce it as Mush not Mish, they type it as مش but they pronounce it with "u".


Egyptians pronounce it mish and mush. Both are used.


> So if you wanted it to be a sentence in eygptians dialect, it would be _Mush Lazmak takul._


Mush/mish lazmak taakul is not very accurate, both in structure and in meaning that it's not necessary.
When I say that something is "mesh lazmek" I mean: you don't need it.
A common question in Egypt is: mesh lazmak 7aaga? and it means: do you need anything?

As for unnecessary, in Egyptian, we say:
mesh/mush laazem
mesh/mush Daruury

Saying that something is "maluush lazma" means that it's not needed.


P.S. ArabianPrincess, would you please use a more visible color in your posts? This color is very tiring مُتعِب للعين . Thanks


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## ArabianPrincess

cherine said:


> Egyptians pronounce it mish and mush. Both are used.
> 
> Mush/mish lazmak taakul is not very accurate, both in structure and in meaning that it's not necessary.
> When I say that something is "mesh lazmek" I mean: you don't need it.
> A common question in Egypt is: mesh lazmak 7aaga? and it means: do you need anything?
> 
> As for unnecessary, in Egyptian, we say:
> mesh/mush laazem
> mesh/mush Daruury
> 
> Saying that something is "maluush lazma" means that it's not needed.
> 
> 
> P.S. ArabianPrincess, would you please use a more visible color in your posts? This color is very tiring مُتعِب للعين . Thanks



I've always heard the word Mush, People say Mish/Mush depending on where they come from? Like what city/town they live in? 
When I said "Mush lazmek" I meant to add "Ek" so that it would mean (Enta). You are Egyptian so you know better than me. Thank you for explaining more.

I am sorry that my font color is مُتعِب للعين. How about this one? I want to use any color but black.


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## cherine

ArabianPrincess said:


> I've always heard the word Mush, People say Mish/Mush depending on where they come from? Like what city/town they live in?
> When I said "Mush lazmek" I meant to add "Ek" so that it would mean (Enta). You are Egyptian so you know better than me. Thank you for explaining more.


I'm not sure if the variation is region based. But both pronounciations are used in Egypt.

To express that I'm addressing you, we show it in the verb following mesh laazem:
mesh laazem takli/teshrabi/teshtaghali....

Adding the pronoun to laazem (mesh lazmek/lazemni/lazemna/lazmo....) only means: you/I/we/he don't need.


> I am sorry that my font color is مُتعِب للعين. How about this one? I want to use any color but black.


Yes, it's much better. Thanks


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## Sidjanga

Hi all,

I'm not sure I understood this correctly. (I haven't read the suggestions in Latin script though.)

So, in MSA, can I say ...ليس من الضروري أن for _It's not necessary to.../ It's not necessary that I/you...do X_?

And I take it you can*not* say لا يجب أن or لا يجب عليّ, إلخ here, as these would mean _must not_ (and not _don't have to/it's not necessary_), correct?


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## cherine

Hi,


Sidjanga said:


> So, in MSA, can I say ...ليس من الضروري أن for _It's not necessary to.../ It's not necessary that I/you...do X_?


Yes, ليس من الضروري أن or ليس ضروريًا أن mean that it is not necessary that...


> And I take it you can*not* say لا يجب أن or لا يجب عليّ, إلخ here, as these would mean _must not_ (and not _don't have to/it's not necessary_), correct?


More or less.
لا يجب أن means "you shouldn't", so I think it can be understood as "it is not necessary". But you can find it used with the meaning of "must not", so maybe it's better to avoid using it with the meaning of "not necessary".
But يجب ألا means you must not. Because it starts with the affirmative verb يجب (you should/must) followed by a negation of the action ألا=أنْ لا .


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## Sidjanga

Many thanks, Cherine. It's very clear now.


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