# FR: He doesn't know what a plane is



## FreddieFirebird

I am really confused on how to structure the "what" in this sentence (regarding le Petit Prince)
He doens't know what a plane is.

"Il ne sait pas ce que c'est un avion" is my only guess.  If it's right, can you help me understand why it works?  If not, can you give me an explanation of the right answer?

thanks


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## SwissPete

« Il ne sait pas ce qu'est un avion », but I can't explain why.


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## FreddieFirebird

Thanks for the right structure, at least!!


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## djweaverbeaver

Hi,

There's also  *Il ne sait pas ce que c'est qu'un avion*, but it's a less formal that SwissPete's translation.


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## zx81

Hello!
Your sentence is right, FreddyBirdy, if you add a comma after "c'est". 
But it's less formal than Swisspete's or djweaverbeaver's.

"Il ne sait pas ce que c'est, un avion."


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## SwissPete

I tried without success to find this sentence in an online version of Le Petit Prince, to see how de Saint-Exupery wrote it.

Has anybody found it?


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## filoumouton

the correct translation is :
"il ne sait pas ce qu'est qu'un avion."

"il ne sait pas ce que c'est, un avion" is correct but not very french...


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## atokad

SwissPete said:


> I tried without success to find this sentence in an online version of Le Petit Prince, to see how de Saint-Exupery wrote it.
> 
> Has anybody found it?



I think FreddieFirebird was paraphrasing, not quoting the book.  I believe the relevant sentence is at the beginning of chapter 3:
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cette chose-là?"


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## FreddieFirebird

Atokad is correct. I teach this book to my French students. This sentence was part of a response to a study question. That's why I asked *why* the structures you provided work. I don't see how the grammar works here. I have a lot to learn!


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## djweaverbeaver

Hi,

If I had to venture an explication,  I think it has to do with _*indirect/reported speech (le discours indirect)*_.

In French, when asking the question about what something is, like an airplane, there are a two ways of asking this:_*Qu'est-ce qu'*__*un avion*__*?*_  and *Qu'est-ce que c'est qu'un avion?*.​ 
In indirect/reported speech, the interrogative pronoun _*what*_, introducing the noun clause, is translated as _*ce qui est*_...  or _*ce que c'est que*_... . The colors correspond to the question words above, respectively.  These corresponds to the answers SwissPete and I gave above:*Il ne sait pas ce qui est un avion./Il ne sait pas ce que c'est qu'un avion.*​ 
You should note that *est-ce que*...? is _*never *_translated in reported speech, although this rule is not always respected by French speakers.  Thus,  *_*Il ne sait pas qu'est-ce que c'est qu'un avion*_ is deemed incorrect, although one would occasionally hear some people say it.  

Furthermore, when *est-ce que *starts a yes or no question, it becomes *si *in a indirect question:_*Est-ce que ça va? ⟹  Il lui demande si ça va.*_​ 
When *est-ce que* is preceded by an interrogative word (où, quand, qui, etc...) in a question, then the _*est-ce que*_ is dropped in indirect speech:_*Où est-ce que qu'elle va?*_ ⟹ *Il me demande où elle va.*​ 
I hope this answers your question.


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## FreddieFirebird

Thank you so much for the detail but I think I'm now more confused. 

If I am asking the question, what is an airplane, can I say " qu'est-ce que c'est, un avion?" or even just "qu'est-ce que c'est?"  Assume I'm testing my kids on the vocab word. Do my sentences here work?  

I'm trying so hard to get this but I'm really frustrated.


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## djweaverbeaver

Qu'est-ce qu'un avion? = Qu'est-ce que c'est qu'un avion? =  What is an airplane?
Qu'est-ce que c'est, un avion? =  What is an airplane?  (the most informal of the three)


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## snarkhunter

djweaverbeaver said:


> *Qu'est-ce que c'est, un avion? =  What is it? An airplane?*


*
Hello,

No, I think you're wrong here with such a translation.
This sentence is indeed only one sentence and one question.

The meaning is really "What is (it, we call) an airplane?"

It is very similar to the other sentence.
But it is by no means that "Is it a bird? Is it a plane?" kind of multiple-question sentence!*


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## djweaverbeaver

Actually, I stand corrected.  As I say it to myself, it is indeed the same question, just more informal than the other two questions.  I'd relegate it to the spoken register.  The indirect question that corresponds to this is the one given by zx81 in post #5.


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## zx81

SwissPete said:


> I tried without success to find this sentence in an online version of Le Petit Prince, to see how de Saint-Exupery wrote it.
> 
> Has anybody found it?



Here's the extract of the text :



> Ce sont des mots prononcés par hasard qui, peu à peu, m'ont tout révélé. Ainsi, quand il aperçut pour la première fois mon avion (je ne dessinerai pas mon avion, c'est un dessin beaucoup trop compliqué pour moi) il me demanda :
> 
> - Qu'est-ce que c'est que cette chose-là ?
> 
> *- Ce n'est pas une chose. Ça vole. C'est un avion. C'est mon avion.*
> 
> Et j'étais fier de lui apprendre que je volais.


Comme tu le vois, la phrase que tu proposes n'est pas telle quelle dans l'extrait.

from http://lepetitprinceexupery.free.fr/


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## FreddieFirebird

I think I need a more in-depth explanation of this concept.  So, in my sentence "He does not know what a plane is", is the "what" a relative pronoun?  

And if "Qu'est-ce que c'est, _____?" (the line being a French vocab word that I want to see if my kids know) doesn't work, what could I say instead?  Do I just have to use "Comment dit-on ____ en anglais"  or "Qu'est-ce que ça veut dire en anglais"?

You are very helpful, and I appreciate it, but I think I just need to get a more clear understanding.  maybe there is a video I can watch.  If anyone would like to continue this privately that's fine with me.  I just don't want all my questions to get too far from the original topic.


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## Maître Capello

FreddieFirebird said:


> So, in my sentence "He does not know what a plane is", is the "what" a relative pronoun?


No, "what" is an interrogative pronoun.

Anyway, see also the numerous related threads:

FR: l don't know what X is
FR: Would you know what a X is?
FR: Do you know what X is?
FR: What is X?
FR: Qu'est-ce que c'est, X ? / Qu'est-ce que X ? / Qu'est-ce que c'est que X ?
FR: Quel/Quelle est X ? / Qu'est-ce que (c'est,) X ?


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## FreddieFirebird

Thanks for those links, Capello.  I appreciate it!


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## Curt Jugg

SwissPete said:


> « Il ne sait pas ce qu'est un avion », but I can't explain why.



Could you also say, "Il ne sait pas ce qu'un avion est"?


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## Maître Capello

You could, but it would not be as common as inverting the subject and predicate because _être_ is not a transitive verb. (The non-inversion is however equally common with verbs taking a direct object, e.g., see FR: Inversion sujet-verbe dans les propositions relatives (introduites par que, dont, où).)

_Il ne sait pas ce qu'est un avion._ 
_Il ne sait pas ce qu'un avion est._ tick
_Il ne sait pas ce que c'est qu'un avion._ 
_Il ne sait pas ce que c'est, un avion._  (colloquial)


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## Curt Jugg

Thanks, Maître Capello.


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## zx81

Personnellement, je pense que la phrase "_Il ne sait pas ce qu'un avion est._" est trop calquée sur l'anglais. Je ne la dirais certainement pas.


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## Curt Jugg

Thanks, zx81. Interesting to learn there is disagreement among francophones on this point.


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## Maître Capello

No, CJ, there is no real disagreement.  That turn of phrase is not incorrect but it doesn't sound very natural…


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## Curt Jugg

Maître Capello said:


> No, CJ, there is no real disagreement.  That turn of phrase is not incorrect but it doesn't sound very natural…



Thanks, MC, I take your point.


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