# French:  Developments of <oi>



## Flaminius

Hello forum,

As I was reading a letter written in late 18th century, I came across a lot of strange cases of <oi>.  The letter is quoted as Note 31 to _Memoirs of My Life_ by Edward Gibbon (in this electronic version, the note is incorporated in the text body).

Looking at a passage like below, I see that some instances of <oi> would be spelt <ai> in the modern orthography.
L'Abbé (...) bien persuadé que le savant Anglois l'approuveroit (...)

I am wondering if this is not an idiosyncracy of the write, and, if it isn't, what it is.  For reference, some word where <oi> may be expected are actually with <ai> (_populaire_ and not *_populoire_).

If this is due to and old spelling or conjugation pattern, I'd appreciate input as to when it was reformed.

Thank you very much.


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## franc 91

This is an old form of spelling that reflected the way the language was pronounced at the time - anglois for anglais, roi was pronounced roué, moi - moué and so on - I believe that in Québécois it is still the case.


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## Natalie Mondor

This form was used in France well into the 18th century, both in spoken and written French. The entries in the Encyclopedie compiled by Diderot and d'Alembert use this and many other spellings that have changed. The case of the spoken  "oi" is interesting because it reflected the pronunciation of the court. The "ai" was a variation spoken by the people of Paris.After the Revolution, people wanted to blend in with the people and not be indentified with the nobility for obvious reasons.
There are many books youmight enjoy written about the history of the French language; some even in English.


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## Flaminius

Thanks, both of you.

Let me summarise what I understood.  Until around the Revolution, there was a diphthong /ue/ (written <oi>).  The first /u/ was dropped, to produce /e/, in some phonetic environments and the now-single vowel was merged with <ai> in spelling.  In other environments, it became /wa/ and the spelling remained intact.

So then, what were the defining conditions that separated <oi> into two equivalents in the next generation of the French language?

Another question.  The whole discussion suggests many changes have contributed the formation of words like _roi_, king.  It definately originates from the Latin _rex_ but I cannot imagine what middles forms it assumed till the present form in French.  Would anyone be able to help me on this?


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## franc 91

I suggest that you look at the other forum that deals with what you are asking (see above)


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## CapnPrep

Flaminius said:


> So then, what were the defining conditions that separated <oi> into two equivalents in the next generation of the French language?


The split into [ɛ] and [wa] was quite haphazard, and as far as I know not phonologically conditioned. The biggest mess is in the nationalities: we've already seen _anglais_ (_français_, _japonais_, …) vs. _québécois_ (_danois_, _chinois_, …) in this thread. But apart from the imperfect/conditional verb endings, I would say that _most_ instances of ‹oi› remained ‹oi› and are now pronounced [wa].



> The whole discussion suggests many changes have contributed the formation of words like _roi_, king.  It definately originates from the Latin _rex_ but I cannot imagine what middles forms it assumed till the present form in French.  Would anyone be able to help me on this?


In most cases the diphthong ‹oi› traces back to an original _ē_ or _ĭ_. So for example:
r*ē*ge(m) > rei > roi > rwɛ > rwa​
This explains why you won't find *_populoire_: this suffix developed from _-*ā*ris_.


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## Flaminius

CapnPrep said:


> The split into [ɛ] and [wa] was quite haphazard, and as far as I know not phonologically conditioned.


Oh, well...  Anyway, thanks for a more accurate phonetic indication.



> In most cases the diphthong ‹oi› traces back to an original _ē_ or _ĭ_. So for example:r*ē*ge(m) > rei > roi > rwɛ > rwa​This explains why you won't find *_populoire_: this suffix developed from _-*ā*ris_.


Yes, yes, _ē_ and _ĭ_ were already confused in the 3rd century Latin.  I see _rei_ is very similar to the Spanish _rey_.  And was ‹roi› really pronounced /roi/?


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## CapnPrep

Flaminius said:


> And was ‹roi› really pronounced /roi/?


Yes. After all, isn't that how you pronounce the English words _royal_, _voice_, _choice_, _convoy_, _employ_, … (< French _royal_, _voix_, _choix_, _convoi_,_ emploi_, …) ?


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## Outsider

CapnPrep said:


> In most cases the diphthong ‹oi› traces back to an original _ē_ or _ĭ_. So for example:
> r*ē*ge(m) > rei > roi > rwɛ > rwa​


It looks like there may have been a stress shift as well:

ey > *oy > oï* (in hiatus) > ouè > wa


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## CapnPrep

Outsider said:


> It looks like there may have been a stress shift as well


This implies that at some point the vowel split into two syllables, but I don't believe that there is evidence for that. I suppose that a falling diphthong can turn into a rising diphthong without necessarily passing through a stage with two vowels in hiatus.


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## Angelo di fuoco

CapnPrep said:


> The split into [ɛ] and [wa] was quite haphazard, and as far as I know not phonologically conditioned. The biggest mess is in the nationalities: we've already seen _anglais_ (_français_, _japonais_, …) vs. _québécois_ (_danois_, _chinois_, …) in this thread. But apart from the imperfect/conditional verb endings, I would say that _most_ instances of ‹oi› remained ‹oi› and are now pronounced [wa].



Victor Hugo wrote in "Les misérables" something about a person (noble one, I think - don't remember it all too well) who sai _polonois_ and _hongrais_.


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## Mishe

Interesting, the French of _l'ancien_ _regime_ was quite different in pronunciation, for example even ll (as in Marseille) was pronounced differently (closer to today's pronunciation of Spanish double l). It's one of the few instances when a historical event, that is the French revolution changed the way many words were pronounced for the reasons that were already mentioned before. > many of these old pronunciations are, however, preserved in contemporary Canadian French.


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## Aoyama

franc 91 said:


> This is an old form of spelling that reflected the way the language was pronounced at the time - anglois for anglais, roi was pronounced roué, moi - moué and so on - I believe that in Québécois it is still the case.


very true, you find obvious proof of this in 17th century drama and poetry, where rhymes or rythm do not work if you use modern pronunciation.
"Roi sans gloire"/ roué sans glouére etc.
You still find trace of this in many examples :
- names like Langlois (for l'Anglais)
- raide/roide but roideur (but baring in mind that "oi" was pronounced "ouais")
- even "oui" pronounced colloquially "ouais"
probably the best example is found with François and Français, both being originally the same word. A phrase like "François roi des Français" was pronounced "Frinçouais rouais des Frinçouais", undeniably giving a different ring to it ...
But if you think of it _you very well know that you find a similar pronounciation shift in Japanese as well :_
words ending in "ai" (a-i) like _takai,katai,yabai_ can be pronounced colloquially as _take, kate, yabe_
some words ending in "oi" (o-i) will be pronounced "e".


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## seitt

Greetings

Apologies if I haven't got the right term, but I would think that the works of Mme Guyon count as _français classique_ rather than _moyen français_ (Middle French) – please correct me if I'm wrong.

Anyway, as those who have kindly answered my threads have seen, the imperfect endings _–ais/-ait_ are always written _–ois/-oit_. Furthermore, I can't help but be reminded of the English loanword ‘connoisseur’, presumably borrowed into English from French before _oi_ was replaced by _ai_ in this case too.

How would this _oi_ have been pronounced? As in Old French, when, as Kibler says, it was pronounced like _oy_ in the English word _boy_? Then again, in Kibler’s _Old French_ (p. 31) we read:
_oi_ was pronounced in twelfth century Francien as in the English _boy_ and then by the turn of the thirteenth century as in the English _sway_
Francien was the dialect of Old French spoken around Paris, I believe.

Best wishes, and many thanks,

Simon


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## Kecha

Ancien français : 9th to 14th century
Moyen français : up to somewhere in the 17th century (1611 is often given although no event supports giving such a clear cut date)
français classique : up to 18th century

Mme Guyon being born in 1648 (died 1717), she was probably right in the middle of the transition from moyen to classique.

It's actually hard to know for sure of prononciation except by looking at how poets had word riming. But then poets sometimes use old fashioned words or usage so it's not even a fool proof source.

A famous example is how Molière had "grammaire" and "grand-mère" being confused in La Bourgeois Gentilhomme, giving a hint that they were pronounced similarly then (while they are pronounced differently now). (Molière dates being 1622-1673 so roughly the same period as Mme Guyon).

It is generally admitted that -oi was probably pronounced ... -wé.
But most people reading it these days would be tempted to pronounced it -wa.


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## chatkigazouille

Cui cui tout le monde 

J'aimerais savoir comment se prononcent les suffixes -ois/-oi chez le français du 19e siècle.

Voici un extrait de "Préparation à la mort" de St Alphonse-Marie de Liguori de 1823 (traduit de l'italien), page 71
"O mon divin Rédempteur, je n'oserai par*oî*tre devant Vous si je ne Vous voy*ois* attaché à la cr*oix*, honni, couvert de plaies et mort pour m*oi*..."

Cela se prononce comme aujourd'hui (wa) Ou plutôt _wè_ ? Je trouve que celle-ci parait assez bizarre surtout avec voyois - "vwajwè" ?

Bon merci d'avance


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## pointvirgule

Au début du XIXe, le _oi_ de _paroître _et de _voyois _se prononçait [ɛ] depuis au moins un siècle, mais la graphie _oi_ persistait toujours. En 1835, une réforme de l'orthographe consacra enfin la graphie _ai_.


> Ainsi [l'Académie française] adopta-t-elle en 1835, dans la sixième édition de son Dictionnaire, l’orthographe -_ais_ pour les mots terminés jusqu’alors en -_ois_ mais prononcés depuis longtemps _è _(_le françois, j’étois_, etc.), réforme réclamée au siècle précédent par Voltaire. (Source : Académie française)


Quant à _croix _et _moi_, j'imagine qu'il y avait belle lurette qu'ils se prononçaient [wa].


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