# Negative potential complement



## DernierVirage

Good morning !

I hope that you can help me to understand the following sentence that I found in some grammar notes that were given to me. 

"电视机被老王修得不完"

Can someone explain to me why 得 is used here before 不, rather than simply saying修不完?

Thanks very much for your help.


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## avlee

First off, what book or dictionary does this sentence come from?
The last four characters don't make any sense to me.
I'd skip this part of that section if I have to read through that book.
Usually, I'd just simply throw away the suspected pirated copies to save my mind from being poisoned and tortured.


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## DernierVirage

Thanks for your reply - to answer your question, it was a printed set of notes that my previous Putonghua teacher gave me.

In fact, the sentence was one a number of examples of the 被词句, but it was the negation of the verb that created the problem for me....

I read the sentence as meaning "the TV set can't be repaired by lao Wang"


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## avlee

Then the Chinese sentence is completely wrong if it's for "the TV set can't be repaired by lao Wang". Actually, if anyone does come up with one English sentence for that Chinese word string, I'd bow down to him/her, because grammatically, the sentence itself is incorrect or at least weird.
I could only figure out 老王修不了这台电视机 to match the English version, which is the only one sounds reasonable to me in terms of grammar.


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## DernierVirage

avlee said:


> Then the Chinese sentence is completely wrong if it's for "the TV set can't be repaired by lao Wang".
> I could only figure out 老王修不了这台电视机 to match the English version, which is the only one sounds reasonable to me in terms of grammar.


 
Thanks.

Is 修不了usually used in the spoken rather than written language? Also, would you say that 修不完 or 不能修得完 would also work here?


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## avlee

修不了 could be used in both spoken and written language. It means can't be repaired.
修不完 means can't finish repairing it.
不能修得完 means 修不完.
The latter two phrases usually mean there's too much work to be done.
They don't work in the original Chinese word string you post. Sounds weird to natives.


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## JJchang

被 in negative is similar to any other sentence in negative.
電視機被老王修好了 The TV set is repaired by Wang.
電視機沒有被老王修好 The TV set has not been fixed by Wang (he tried to fix but failed)
電視機不能被老王修 The TV set cannot be fixed by Wang (he is not allowed to fix it)
電視機沒有辦法被老王修好 The TV set is not able to be fixed by Wang. Wang doesn't have the capability to fix the TV.
沒有電視機能被老王修好 There are no TV set that can be repaired by Wang. Wang can't fix any TV Set.

Hopefully that's clear for you.


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## Ghabi

Hello DV. As you're probably aware, the passive construction is not something really natural in a Topic-Comment language. It's highly "marked" with a negative connotation, especially in natural, colloquial speech. When someone got killed, I'd use 被. But when a tv set got fixed, I won't use that.


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## DernierVirage

Avlee, JJchang and Ghabi - thanks to all of you for your help above!

It seems that the example in my grammar notes is not very well drafted anyway, which doesn't help!

I have tried to carefully follow all your examples and comments above, can I check one further point with you arising from these remarks. I have changed the example a bit to make it easier and also to avoid using the 被 structure.

Am I right in saying that:

昨天的功课我没做完 means that I didn't finish (but for no particular reason) 
昨天的功课我做不完 means that I didn't finish specifically because I didn't have the ability to do so

and that, going back to my initial question, 

昨天的功课我做得不完 is totally incorrect in any circumstances.

Thanks very much!


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## JJchang

Ghabi said:


> Hello DV. As you're probably aware, the passive construction is not something really natural in a Topic-Comment language. It's highly "marked" with a negative connotation, especially in natural, colloquial speech. When someone got killed, I'd use 被. But when a tv set got fixed, I won't use that.


I'd say that depends on the context. "今天電視機怎麼突然好了?" "電視機被老王修好了" It all depends on what's the emphasis here and what's the subject. If the question or the sentence leading up to the response has the TV as the subject, then it is less natural to reply using a different subject.



DernierVirage said:


> 昨天的功课我没做完 means that I didn't finish (but for no particular reason)
> 昨天的功课我做不完 means that I didn't finish specifically because I didn't have the ability to do so


昨天的功课我没做完 I haven't finished the homework from yesterday.
昨天的功课我做不完 I cannot finish the homework from yesterday.

Both sentences are in present tense, otherwise you need to say 昨天的功课我昨天没做完, 昨天的功课我昨天做不完. 

Other than that, I think you get the idea of this type of negation.


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## DernierVirage

JJchang said:


> I'd say that depends on the context. "今天電視機怎麼突然好了?" "電視機被老王修好了" It all depends on what's the emphasis here and what's the subject. If the question or the sentence leading up to the response has the TV as the subject, then it is less natural to reply using a different subject.


My Putonghua teacher (who is from Beijing) told me that the TV repair sentence would be OK with the 被 structure as long as we are saying that it could not be repaired, thereby maintaining the use of 被 in situations with a negative feeling...



JJchang said:


> 昨天的功课我没做完 I haven't finished the homework from yesterday.
> 昨天的功课我做不完 I cannot finish the homework from yesterday.
> 
> Both sentences are in present tense, otherwise you need to say 昨天的功课我昨天没做完, 昨天的功课我昨天做不完.
> 
> Other than that, I think you get the idea of this type of negation.


Perfect, thanks very much !


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## linglin66

電視機不能被老王修 The TV set cannot be fixed by Wang (he is not allowed to fix it)
坦白地说，这句中文实在太别扭了。如果说wang is not allowed to fix TV set中文可以说：不允许老王修理电视机。

電視機沒有辦法被老王修好 The TV set is not able to be fixed by Wang. Wang doesn't have the capability to fix the TV.
老王没有修电视机的本事（能力）。

沒有電視機能被老王修好 There are no TV set that can be repaired by Wang. Wang can't fix any TV Set.
 老王修不了电视机。


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## DernierVirage

linglin66 said:


> 電視機不能被老王修 The TV set cannot be fixed by Wang (he is not allowed to fix it)
> 坦白地说，这句中文实在太别扭了。如果说wang is not allowed to fix TV set中文可以说：不允许老王修理电视机。
> 
> 電視機沒有辦法被老王修好 The TV set is not able to be fixed by Wang. Wang doesn't have the capability to fix the TV.
> 老王没有修电视机的本事（能力）。
> 
> 沒有電視機能被老王修好 There are no TV set that can be repaired by Wang. Wang can't fix any TV Set.
> 老王修不了电视机。


 
In the last example you give, can we say

一台电视机老王也不会修 

instead of using the 修不了structure?


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## linglin66

DernierVirage said:


> In the last example you give, can we say
> 
> 一台电视机老王也不会修
> 
> instead of using the 修不了structure?


 
可以简单地说：老王（根本）不会修电视。
总的来说，中文似乎用主动语态的时候比较多。


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## DernierVirage

linglin66 said:


> 可以简单地说：老王（根本）不会修电视。
> 总的来说，中文似乎用主动语态的时候比较多。


 
我感谢你！

我还有一个问题﹕〝他不会修〞和〝他修不了〞一样的吗﹖


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## Ghabi

DernierVirage said:


> 一台电视机老王也不会修


This sounds perfect to me. For example, 一台电视机，他也不会修/修不了，还常夸自己是电机工程系毕业呢！"He can't even fix a tv set. And he's always boasting he's a EE graduate!"


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## linglin66

DernierVirage said:


> 我感谢你！
> 
> 我还有一个问题﹕〝他不会修〞和〝他修不了〞一样的吗﹖


 
仔细想也不完全一样，两者可以构成因果关系，因为“不会”，所以“修不了”。但是，也可能“会修”，但没有所需的零配件而“修不了”。


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## JJchang

linglin66 said:


> 電視機不能被老王修 The TV set cannot be fixed by Wang (he is not allowed to fix it)
> 坦白地说，这句中文实在太别扭了。如果说wang is not allowed to fix TV set中文可以说：不允许老王修理电视机。
> 
> 電視機沒有辦法被老王修好 The TV set is not able to be fixed by Wang. Wang doesn't have the capability to fix the TV.
> 老王没有修电视机的本事（能力）。
> 
> 沒有電視機能被老王修好 There are no TV set that can be repaired by Wang. Wang can't fix any TV Set.
> 老王修不了电视机。


第一句一點問題都沒有, "秘密不能被他知道" "電視機不能被他修" 
"沒有電視機能被老王修好" is stronger than 老王修不了電視機



DernierVirage said:


> In the last example you give, can we say
> 
> 一台电视机老王也不会修
> 
> instead of using the 修不了structure?


一台電視機老王也不會修 the order of words is very strange.
老王一台電視機都不會修 is better, but this gives the impression that it is easy to repair TVs. "Wang doesn't even know how to fix a TV"
老王什麼電視都不會修 老王什麼電視也不會修Wang cannot fix any TV.


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## Ghabi

linglin66 said:


> 電視機不能被老王修 The TV set cannot be fixed by Wang (he is not allowed to fix it)
> 坦白地说，这句中文实在太别扭了。如果说wang is not allowed to fix TV set中文可以说：不允许老王修理电视机。
> 
> 電視機沒有辦法被老王修好 The TV set is not able to be fixed by Wang. Wang doesn't have the capability to fix the TV.
> 老王没有修电视机的本事（能力）。
> 
> 沒有電視機能被老王修好 There are no TV set that can be repaired by Wang. Wang can't fix any TV Set.
> 老王修不了电视机。


  I agree with you. When I hear these sentences, I’d think that it’s a foreigner speaking. Would a native Chinese speak this way? I find it hard to conjure up such a native speaker. But who knows.

@DV: The ball rolls back to your court, again! The perennial question for any language learner: do you want to sound like a native or a foreigner?


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## DernierVirage

Ghabi said:


> ...........
> @DV: The ball rolls back to your court, again! The perennial question for any language learner: do you want to sound like a native or a foreigner?


 
Sadly I can't see myself ever sounding like a native , but that said I enjoy trying to improve my understanding of the different shades of meaning, even with the use of "potential complements", which give me a lot of trouble.

What I have learned from the answers in this thread is that it is very hard to know the best way in a given situation to express the idea of failing to complete an action, given that the reason can be lack of time, lack of ability, lack of desire etc. 

For example, I really hesitate between the following (even though most of this has been well explained to me above):

没修
修不完
修不了
修不好
不能修得完 (or了or 好)
不会修 etc....

...not to mention the additional problem of deciding when I should or shouldn't use either the topic comment structure, the 把词句 or the 被词句 for the appropriate emphasis.

All the answers here have been really useful, I just need time to put them all together and keep on practising !


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## xiaolijie

> do you want to sound like a native or a foreigner?


Yes, I of course do *want to* sound like a native *but still* sound like a foreigner! 



> the following sentence that I found in some grammar notes that were given to me.
> "电视机被老王修得不完"
> Can someone explain to me why 得 is used here before 不, rather than simply saying修不完?


I think the sentence is probably meant to be:
"电视机被老王修得/不完" (both positive & negative versions are given)



Apart from this, I sometimes see native speaker/ teachers give stilted, unnatural examples in textbooks (when they have perhaps forgot to think of a realistic context for their examples).


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## DernierVirage

xiaolijie said:


> Yes, I of course do *want to* sound like a native *but still* sound like a foreigner!
> 
> I think the sentence is probably meant to be:
> "电视机被老王修得/不完" (both positive & negative versions are given)
> 
> Apart from this, I sometimes see native speaker/ teachers give stilted, unnatural examples in textbooks (when they have perhaps forgot to think of a realistic context for their examples).


 
Thanks - I'd never even thought of this, you could very well be right about the sentence simply trying to show the two possibilities 

Yes, I've noticed that frequently the examples used never seem to impress native speakers ! (for some reason, potential complement and 被词句 examples often fall into this category...).


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## xiaolijie

> it is very hard to know the best way in a given situation to express the idea of failing to complete an action, given that the reason can be lack of time, lack of ability, lack of desire etc.


I'm a learner too and I think the main reason for this difficulty is the lack of the opportunity to be exposed to the language and to use it (i.e, I don't find them hard to differentiate, just hard to remember when to use what ). 
Language use is a set of habits and as long as we have the condition for the habits to be set, then we are set!


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## BODYholic

DernierVirage said:


> For example, I really hesitate between the following (even though most of this has been well explained to me above):




 没修 - Did not even attempt. 
 修不完 - Attempted but the job is incomplete. 
 修不了- May or may not attempted. It can not be repaired due to  time/capability or any other constraints. 
 修不好 - Attempted but unsuccessful. 
不能修得完 - May or may not attempted. The speaker predicts that the job can not be completed within the stipulated time frame. 
 不会修 - May or may not attempted. Basically, the speaker hasn't a clue how to fix/repair. 
Note: 修完 and 修好 may or may not mean the same thing.



DernierVirage said:


> In the last example you give, can we say
> 
> 一台电视机老王也不会修
> 
> instead of using the 修不了structure?


Just add a "连" in front of your sentence will do the job.
Context: 老王has been working as a TV technician for 6 months but he has yet to pick up the trade. You might hear this from colleagues.


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## DernierVirage

BODYholic said:


> 没修 - Did not even attempt.
> 修不完 - Attempted but the job is incomplete.
> 修不了- May or may not attempted. It can not be repaired due to time/capability or any other constraints.
> 修不好 - Attempted but unsuccessful.
> 不能修得完 - May or may not attempted. The speaker predicts that the job can not be completed within the stipulated time frame.
> 不会修 - May or may not attempted. Basically, the speaker hasn't a clue how to fix/repair.
> Note: 修完 and 修好 may or may not mean the same thing.


 
This is very helpful indeed, thank you . In fact, your list also highlights one of the problems I have, which is the difference between the use of 好,完 and 了 as complements. 

I have written some examples based on the above list and I would welcome any comments that you or the others may have:

If the situation is a student who has not finished his homework, are the following correct ?:

1. If he wants to just say that he hasn't finished his homework, without any explanation (this may sound a bit rude in this context perhaps):
昨天的功课我没做完 (_I guess that we would not normally use 好 or了 here_)

2. If he wants to say that he started but couldn't finish:
昨天的功课我做不好 (_suggests that he had difficulty with the work_)
昨天的功课我做不完 (_the reason for not finishing is not made clear_)

3. It seems to me that we would not say 昨天的功课我做不了, unless the student wants to avoid even saying whether he started the work

4. As regards the use of 不能, am I right to say that this would not normally be used to refer to a past event? However, could we say:
今晚我很忙,所以今天的功课我不能做得完

I hope that I am not over-complicating things here, anyway I appreciate all the help I am getting!


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## Ghabi

DernierVirage said:


> 1. If he wants to just say that he hasn't finished his homework, without any explanation (this may sound a bit rude in this context perhaps):
> 昨天的功课我還没做完 (_I guess that we would not normally use 好 or了 here_) 還没做好 is also okay.
> 
> 2. If he wants to say that he started but couldn't finish:
> 昨天的功课我做不好 (_suggests that he had difficulty with the work_)
> 昨天的功课我做不完 (_the reason for not finishing is not made clear_)
> 
> 3. It seems to me that we would not say 昨天的功课我做不了, unless the student wants to avoid even saying whether he started the work 做不了/做不來/做不好 are quite similar, but the former two sound more like "it's beyond my capability ..." For homework I'd use 做不好.
> 
> 4. As regards the use of 不能, am I right to say that this would not normally be used to refer to a past event? However, could we say:
> 今晚我很忙,所以今天的功课我不能做得完 I'm not sure what you intent to say, but it doesn't sound natural.


The tricky thing is, different verbs call for different collocations. For example,   这鬼东西太重了,我拿不起  "I can't lift this sucker. It's too heavy."


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## BODYholic

DernierVirage said:


> 1. If he wants to just say that he hasn't finished his homework, without any explanation (this may sound a bit rude in this context perhaps):
> 昨天的功课我没做完 (_I guess that we would not normally use 好 or了 here_)


If your intention is to sound (a bit) rude, you should say "昨天的功课我没做" -> Unless a valid reason is given, the speaker seems indifferent and could not be bothered.

昨天的功课我没做完/昨天的功课我還没做完 -> This suggests that you have attempted the homework but, for some reasons, you couldn't finished at the time of speaking. But this doesn't sound rude to my ears.



DernierVirage said:


> 2. If he wants to say that he started but couldn't finish:
> 昨天的功课我做不好 (_suggests that he had difficulty with the work_)
> 昨天的功课我做不完 (_the reason for not finishing is not made clear_)


 Your second sentence is correct. No dispute.

For your first sentence, 昨天的功课我做不好, I find it vague and, to certain extend, confusing. I've heard primary school kids said this but it sounds colloquial at best or at worst, broken. 
昨天的功课我做不好 - I would interpret it as the speaker attempted the homework but encountered difficulties. But we are unsure if the homework is completed or otherwise. For the same meaning, I much prefer "昨天的功课我做*得*不好"

If you want to have all the information (started, couldn't finish, _had difficulty_), I would say "昨天的功课太难了,我做不完".



DernierVirage said:


> 3. It seems to me that *we would not say* 昨天的功课我做不*了(le)*, unless the student wants to avoid even saying whether he started the work


Yes and No.
You are absolutely right if we limit the scope to 了(le) which functions as a particle. In this case, 了(le) is used to modify the state of the verb 做. 做不了(le) is incorrect because 了(le) can not modify the word 不 which is not a verb.

It makes sense if 了(liao3) is a verb. 做不了(liao3) means 'not capable to do something'. 



DernierVirage said:


> 4. As regards the use of 不能, am I right to say that this would not normally be used to refer to a past event? However, could we say:
> 今晚我很忙,所以今天的功课我不能做得完.


You said 'past event' but your example is "今晚 ... 今天"!!?? 

In any case, "不能做得完" is not idiomatic. I don't know why but we usually drop the "得" here. -> "不能做完" or "做不完"

So, "今晚我很忙,所以今天的功课我不能做完". Since this is making a prediction which may or may not be accurate. You may want to soften the tone by adding words like "应该", "可能" or "也许".

"今晚我很忙,所以今天的功课我 应该/也许 不能做完"


Hope this helps.


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## DernierVirage

*Ghabi and BODYholic* - thanks for taking so much trouble to reply, I really appreciate these detailed comments!

I will need a day or so to study and digest all this information, but I once I have finished everything I will probably be back here to double check on some points again, if I may...

Just to clarify one point in my previous post, I seem to have confused both of you when I said:

" As regards the use of 不能, am I right to say that this would not normally be used to refer to a past event? However, could we say:
今晚我很忙,所以今天的功课我不能做得完 "

Apologies, this was my bad English  - what I wanted to confirm was whether this structure is usually not used in the past, BUT it is OK to use if we are referring to a present or future event - hence my example. Sorry about that.

Once again, thanks a lot - and I will be back


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## Ghabi

DernierVirage said:


> " As regards the use of 不能, am I right to say that this would not normally be used to refer to a past event? However, could we say:
> 今晚我很忙,所以今天的功课我不能做得完 "
> 
> Apologies, this was my bad English  - what I wanted to confirm was whether this structure is usually not used in the past, BUT it is OK to use if we are referring to a present or future event - hence my example. Sorry about that.


The combination "不能+verb+完" has another meaning, and it should be followed by something. For example, 你不能吃完饭马上睡觉，这样对身体不好。"You can't go straight to sleep after eating. That's not healthy." For the meaning "can't finish", you have to use "verb+不完". For example, 这么多菜，我一个人吃不完。  "No way for me to chow down so many dishes!"


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## xiaolijie

> " As regards the use of 不能, am I right to say that this would not normally be used to refer to a past event? However, could we say:
> 今晚我很忙,所以今天的功课我不能做得完 "
> 
> Apologies, this was my bad English  - what I wanted to confirm was whether this structure is usually not used in the past, BUT it is OK to use if we are referring to a present or future event - hence my example. Sorry about that.


Just from my limited experience:
1. 不能 can also be used for past events (You'll also see 没能 used in this way).
2. 不能做得完: 不能 expresses potentiality and 做得完 also expresses potentiality. So nomally you should see either 不能做完 or 做不完. However, it's not uncommon to see 不能做得完 (just as it's not uncommon to see the double negative in English).


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## DernierVirage

I've been carefully piecing together all your helpful replies above, can I check a few points again with you?

*A. 昨天的功课我做不好*

Interestingly, there is a big difference of opinion between Ghabi and BODYholic on my sentence:

- Ghabi's reply:
" 昨天的功课我做不好 (_suggests that he had difficulty with the work_) "

- BODYholic's reply: 
" For your first sentence, 昨天的功课我做不好, I find it vague and, to certain extend, confusing. I've heard primary school kids said this but it sounds colloquial at best or at worst, broken. 
昨天的功课我做不好 - I would interpret it as the speaker attempted the homework but encountered difficulties. But we are unsure if the homework is completed or otherwise. For the same meaning, I much prefer "昨天的功课我做*得*不好" "

I also mention that BODYholic's suggestion "昨天的功课我做得不好" actually used the "...得不..." structure that started off this whole thread and which an earlier post said was not a normal structure to use.

*B. 不能做得完* 

Again, two different views on this:

- Xiaolijie's reply:
"However, it's not uncommon to see 不能做得完 (just as it's not uncommon to see the double negative in English). "

- BODYholic's reply:
"不能做得完" is not idiomatic. I don't know why but we usually drop the "得" here. -> "不能做完" or "做不完"

Any extra thoughts would be very welcome!

*C.* Last question, if I have understood all your advice, I think that the two following sentences carry exactly the same meaning and nuances (namely that the homework has not been completed, without stating if it was even begun and without indicating whether this was due to lack of time, lack of ability, lack of desire etc.):

昨天的功课我没做完
昨天的功课我做不了

Thanks again to everyone for your time and trouble !


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## Ghabi

My two yuans:

-昨天的功课太难了，我怎样做也做不好。Literally: “Yesterday’s homework is too difficult. I couldn’t do it well no matter how hard I tried.”

-昨天的功课，我只看了一眼，就知道太难了，根本做不了，所以没做。Literally: “A single glance at yesterday’s homework told me that it is beyond my ability. So I didn’t do it.”

-昨天的功课我做得不好，被老师修理了一顿。Literally: “I didn’t do yesterday’s homework properly. So I was called to the carpet by the teacher.” Note that 修理 can be used in the passive voice when it means “to reprimand” instead of “to repair”.

-昨天晚上我太困了，所以昨天的功课我还没做完。Literally: “I was too sleepy last night. So I didn’t finish my homework.”

-Personally I never say 不能做得完 or 不能做完.


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## DernierVirage

Ghabi: I have read your reply above - thanks. Am I right in thinking then that the problem with my examples is that I have used very short, simple sentences? It seems to me from reading your (and others') answers that a lot depends on the rest of the sentence, which of course in real life is usually more explicit in terms of meaning?

In other words, it not really possible to say which is the "right" complement to use, unless there is already much more information stated, rather than just implied? Which means, logically, that you cannot depend only on the complement (完,好,了) or the verb structure (能,会) to give the full depth of meaning?


----------



## xiaolijie

> Again, two different views on this:
> 
> - Xiaolijie's reply:
> "However, it's not uncommon to see 不能做得完 (just as it's not uncommon to see the double negative in English). "
> 
> - BODYholic's reply:
> "不能做得完" is not idiomatic. I don't know why but we usually drop the "得" here. -> "不能做完" or "做不完"


No, they are not really different. It's just the way you quoted what I said that makes it appear to be so . Here's what I said:


> nomally you should see either 不能做完 or 做不完. However, it's not uncommon to see 不能做得完


It means that you can see 不能做得完 but 不能做完 and 做不完 are more of the norm.


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## DernierVirage

xiaolijie said:


> No, they are not really different. It's just the way you quoted what I said that makes it appear to be so . Here's what I said:
> It means that you can see 不能做得完 but 不能做完 and 做不完 are more of the norm.


 
Apologies for having "misquoted" you, it was completely unintentional ...

I was getting completely tangled up in all my points and this was the unfortunate result!


----------



## xiaolijie

> Apologies for having "misquoted" you, it was completely unintentional ...


Don't worry. I was not offended or meant in any negative way. Only wanted to clarify. 



			
				DernierVirage said:
			
		

> "昨天的功课我做得不好" actually used the "...得不..." structure that started off this whole thread and which an earlier post said was not a normal structure to use.


This is an interesting point, as 做得不好 seems ok whereas something appearing very similar such as 修得不完 seems not. 
Since trying to point out the difference between the above two phrases in a short post may lead to further confusion, I'll just put it simply as below and hope that it may help somehow: 
Although in appearance the two phrases look the same, 修得不完 is not ok as a *Potential Complement* structure (see the Heading you gave to this thread). 做得不好 on the other hand is perfectly ok as it is a structure involving a *Complement of Degree. *Along with 做得不好, you can have similar structures such as 做得很好， 做得非常好，which are all complements of degree.
That is to say, the bit 得不 is _*problematic*_ in a Potential Complement structure (Some more unacceptable Potential Complement structures for you to consider: 看得不懂，记得不住， 睡得不着, etc.) but not in a Degree Complement structure. So if you change 修得不完 into a complement-of-degree expression, there should be no longer a problem: 修得不好, 修得很快, etc.


----------



## DernierVirage

Ghabi said:


> The tricky thing is, different verbs call for different collocations. For example, 这鬼东西太重了,我拿不起 "I can't lift this sucker. It's too heavy."


 
Would it also be acceptable to express this as follows ? :

这鬼东西太重了,我不能拿起
我不能拿起这鬼东西，它太重了

The first sentence doesn't sound quite right though... 



xiaolijie said:


> ...This is an interesting point, as 做得不好 seems ok whereas something appearing very similar such as 修得不完 seems not.
> Since trying to point out the difference between the above two phrases in a short post may lead to further confusion, I'll just put it simply as below and hope that it may help somehow:
> Although in appearance the two phrases look the same, 修得不完 is not ok as a *Potential Complement* structure (see the Heading you gave to this thread). 做得不好 on the other hand is perfectly ok as it is a structure involving a *Complement of Degree. *Along with 做得不好, you can have similar structures such as 做得很好， 做得非常好，which are all complements of degree.
> That is to say, the bit 得不 is _*problematic*_ in a Potential Complement structure (Some more unacceptable Potential Complement structures for you to consider: 看得不懂，记得不住， 睡得不着, etc.) but not in a Degree Complement structure. So if you change 修得不完 into a complement-of-degree expression, there should be no longer a problem: 修得不好, 修得很快, etc.


 
Thanks for your very helpful reply, where I have highlighted the issue that seems to be key. You are right - that I was so focused on the potential complement aspects of all the examples that I forgot to consider any other types of complement !

Following your reasoning, the phrase "昨天的功课我做得不好" is not referring to the fact that the work could not be completed, but is stressing the fact that the quality was not poor (without even saying whether ithe work was finished or not). 

I am thinking that this may be why BODYholic and Ghabi had diverging views on my sentence "昨天的功课我做不好"; since 好 can be used both as a potential complement and a complement of degree, does this sentence sound ambiguous (or strange) when it is in the negative? Maybe the best approach is therefore to stick to 完 or了when referring to the lack of ability to finish something and avoid using 好 completely....


----------



## Ghabi

DernierVirage said:


> Ghabi: I have read your reply above - thanks. Am I right in thinking then that the problem with my examples is that I have used very short, simple sentences? It seems to me from reading your (and others') answers that a lot depends on the rest of the sentence, which of course in real life is usually more explicit in terms of meaning?


 You can say it again!



> Would it also be acceptable to express this as follows ? :
> 
> 这鬼东西太重了,我不能拿起
> 我不能拿起这鬼东西，它太重了
> 
> The first sentence doesn't sound quite right though...


I won't say this, but perhaps some people do. There're always stylistic preferences and regional differences. But I want to add that, although you probably know, that 能 doesn't necessarily refer to ability. Like the English "can", it's also used to signify permission or moral obligation.   我能进来吗? "Can I come in?"   杀人?这种事不能做. "To kill someone? We can't do things like this." When I hear 我不能拿起, this second sense of 能  comes to my mind.



> Following your reasoning, the phrase "昨天的功课我做得不好" is not referring to the fact that the work could not be completed, but is stressing the fact that the quality was not poor (without even saying whether ithe work was finished or not).
> 
> I am thinking that this may be why BODYholic and Ghabi had diverging views on my sentence "昨天的功课我做不好"; since 好 can be used both as a potential complement and a complement of degree, does this sentence sound ambiguous (or strange) when it is in the negative? Maybe the best approach is therefore to stick to 完 or了when referring to the lack of ability to finish something and avoid using 好 completely....


Yes, I'll say ... but rememebr that 做不完 (can't be finished) and 做不了 (beyond someone's ability) are not the same.


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## linglin66

这鬼东西太重了,我不能拿起
我不能拿起这鬼东西，它太重了

we would say 这鬼东西太重了,我拿不动。


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## DernierVirage

linglin66 said:


> 这鬼东西太重了,我不能拿起
> 我不能拿起这鬼东西，它太重了
> 
> we would say 这鬼东西太重了,我拿不动。


 
感谢你的回答！我还有一个问题：

〝我拿不动〞和〝我拿不起〞一样的吗？


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## BODYholic

linglin66 said:


> 这鬼东西太重了,我不能拿起


I think there is a regional difference between the Northern and Southern speakers in this aspect.

Over here, it is more natural for us to say "这鬼东西太重了,我拿不起(来)". We do use "不能拿" but it is usually limited to the meaning of 'not supposed to'. E.g. "这东西不是我的,我不能拿" or "老爸提醒我不能拿起那东西"

@DernierVirage,
"拿/提不起" seems to be more common. For "不动", you find it more common with verbs like "推" and "搬".

PS: 拿不起来 - This has to be pronounced accurately. Or else it will sound like Hokkien vulgar words.


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## DernierVirage

BODYholic said:


> .....
> @DernierVirage,
> "拿/提不起" seems to be more common. For "不动", you find it more common with verbs like "推" and "搬".
> 
> PS: 拿不起来 - This has to be pronounced accurately. Or else it will sound like Hokkien vulgar words.


 
Thanks for your help. Can I also ask you this - would you say that "拿不起" and "拿不起来" are interchangeable, or does the 来 vary the meaning at all ?

(And I will remember to be careful if one day I have to tell a Hokkien speaker in Putonghua that I can't lift something )


----------



## Ghabi

BODYholic said:


> "拿/提不起" seems to be more common. For "不动", you find it more common with verbs like "推" and "搬".


I'm reminded of some lines from classical literature:

李易安：聞說雙溪春尚好，也擬泛輕舟。只恐雙溪舴艋舟，載不動，許多愁。

西廂：遍人間煩惱填胸臆，量這些大小車兒如何載得起！



DernierVirage said:


> Thanks for your help. Can I also ask you this - would you say that "拿不起" and "拿不起来" are interchangeable, or does the 来 vary the meaning at all ?


They're the same in this case. But don't take this as a rule. For example, your girlfriend is a shop-till-drop type (you're to pay for her of course), and finally you want to break up with her, saying, "  不是我不爱你,是我爱不起你" ("not that I don't love you: I can't afford to love you!") In this case you can't use 起来.


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## DernierVirage

Ghabi said:


> ....
> They're the same in this case. But don't take this as a rule. For example, your girlfriend is a shop-till-drop type (you're to pay for her of course), and finally you want to break up with her, saying, " 不是我不爱你,是我爱不起你" ("not that I don't love you: I can't afford to love you!") In this case you can't use 起来.


 
Thanks for giving me a new phrase - 爱不起 . I was previously taught various structures like this, such as 买不起, 吃不起, 看不起, 干不起, all without 来.

As regards 拿不起(来), it's good to know that both have the same meaning.


----------



## BODYholic

DernierVirage said:


> Thanks for your help. Can I also ask you this - would you say that "拿不起" and "拿不起来" are interchangeable, or does the 来 vary the meaning at all ?


I think it depends where is the object/object phrase.
老是提不起精神
精神老是提不起来

端上饭菜
把饭菜端上来



Ghabi said:


> I'm reminded of some lines from classical literature:
> 
> 李易安：聞說雙溪春尚好，也擬泛輕舟。只恐雙溪舴艋舟，載不動，許多愁。
> 
> 西廂：遍人間煩惱填胸臆，量這些大小車兒如何載得起！


菊花台 : 愁莫渡江 秋心拆两半

拆了。就载得动了。


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## xiaolijie

> I think it depends where is the object/object phrase.
> 老是提不起精神
> 精神老是提不起来


But it's quite common to see 老是提不起精神来, so there may also be other reasons?


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## YangMuye

有些中文的思維似乎很難解釋。很抱歉我英文不好。

這個問題有些複雜，我想分成幾部分講。

一：中文的“被”字句不等於英文的被動語態(passive voice)。
中文的主語/主題(topic)可以不受語態的限制，可以是除了施動者和受動者以外的成份。
中文的“被”字語，很少由沒有生命的物體允當主語。如果有，通常是：a)受動者發生了變化，施動者負有責任/是直接原因；b)意外、難得、感歎等語氣。
比如：
电视机被老王好了。(a和b同時)
电视机居然能被老王好了。(因爲“可能”是狀態不是動態，所以a不可能。只可能是b)
电视机能被老王好了？(b驚)
电视机能被老王好了。(???。如果語氣得當，b驚歎/鄭重)

二：中文沒有時態(grammatical tense)。
這裡的時態不是指英文的時態，而是純粹的語法時態。中文沒有辦法用語法表逹敘述的時間是過去、現在、還是未來。這點不用疑問。

三：敘述事件的發生，必需加上能表逹完成體貌(perfect aspect)的助詞。
完成體表明特定的一次性事件是完整的（有开始，有結束）。
電視機老王修好*了*。
電視機老王*沒*修好。
電視機老王*沒*修好了。???
電視機老王能修好了。???(此處“了”是一種語氣詞，此外還有一種“過去不能，現在能”的感覺)
電視機老王沒能修得好。???(fails to 使“修好”這個件事發生)

可能性的描述都是狀態性的，不能加“了”或“沒”。但“能”這個詞很奇怪。

四：動詞可能表達未來必然的事件和主語的意志。
這種未來的感覺是，按照通常，按照道理，自然原因等的感覺。比如：
這麼推，石頭肯定不(會)動。
但當當主語是人時，多半表明自己意志。
我不(會)去。I will not go.
所以您#29的句子“今晚我很忙,所以今天的功课我不能做得完”會讓人誤解。

五：表示結果階段的“得了”“不了”
“得”的本意大概是“結果”。後來用於表示肯定。“不”表示否定。
“做不了”相當於“做，但/也 不(會)了”(了：完結，出結果)。這個不是現代漢語，可能比較難理解。我們先考慮另一個例子：
“推不動”：“這麼肯定*推不動*石頭”->“這麼*推*，石頭肯定*不動*。”
這句話裡，如果除去“肯定”二字，實際上是以一種客觀的角度觀察，石頭“自己不動”“不會動”的感覺。
通過這種語法，我們其實得到了一個表示動作(推)的結果的動詞(不動)。因爲動作(推)的結果沒有意志，所以(不動)也是對結果的客觀評價。
如#19所言“仔细想也不完全一样，两者可以构成因果关系，因为“不会”，所以“修不了”。但是，也可能“会修”，但没有所需的零配件而“修不了”。”
因爲人“不會修”，所以“人”的“修”不會“了”(直譯His repairing will never success)。
注：此用法本質上和“完成體貌”不能共存，即不可能加“了”“沒”等助詞。

六：表示結果的“得”
前面提到的“得”是“表示肯定”。這裡的“得”表示“得到結果”。因爲出了結果，所以經常是完成體的。英語裡"past tense"和"present perfective"的特定事件的用法都是完成體(perfect)的。此用法可以參考“的地得的用法”。注意區別，類似#35的例子：
“修得不好”：修了，結果不好（沒修好）。
“修不好”：類以剛才用法。
“不能修得好”：？？？(主觀的意志“不能”後面加客觀的“修得好”很奇怪)
“能修得好”：(is able to [repair it and let it work])
“沒能修得好”：faild to [repair it and get it work]
“能修得好了”：是否還記得上面“三：”裡舉的例子？沒能(failed to be able to) 能...了(have become able to)
我不知道爲什麼“修得好”“不能修得好”裡的“得”只能理解爲“五：”的用法，而“(沒)能修得好(了)”“修得好”的“得”卻是“六：”的用法。

似乎“能”“會”這些詞用法很特別。

能：(條件/權力)許可
不能：(條件/權力)禁止/被禁止。
沒能：未遂
能了：(條件/權力)獲得。

會：技能具備
不會：意志/承諾/技能不具備。
會了：技能習得。
沒會：？？？

要：索取物品/要求/意志
不要：拒絶物品/抵制/
沒要：未索取物品(didn't)
要了：索取物品(did)


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## DernierVirage

YangMuye:

我已经花很多时间读您的非常有用﹑有意思的回答，感谢您！那个回答我要继续读下去﹐我要是有其他的问题﹐一定告诉您﹗

我可不可以问您这个问题﹖︰我#41的句子（〝昨天的功课我做不好〞）您觉得清楚吗﹖

多谢﹗


----------



## linglin66

DernierVirage said:


> YangMuye:
> 
> 我已经花很多时间读您的非常有用﹑有意思的回答，感谢您！那个回答我要继续读下去﹐我一有其他的问题﹐就告诉您﹗
> 
> 我可不可以问您这个问题﹖︰我#41的句子（〝昨天的功课我做不好〞）您觉得清楚吗﹖
> 
> 多谢﹗


昨天的功课我做不好equals to 'I could not finish yesterday's homework perfectly.'  It emphasizes that you don't have the ability to finish it with a high quality.

昨天的功课我做得不好=I finished yesterday's homework but the quality was poor. It just tells the others the result.  Maybe you didn't have enough time or you didn't take it seriously.



DernierVirage said:


> 感谢你的回答！我还有一个问题：
> 
> 〝我拿不动〞和〝我拿不起〞一样的吗？


“拿不动”和“拿不起来”是一样的。

另外，南方人会说“这鬼东西太重”；同样的语气，北京人可能会说“这破玩意儿太重”。但北方人会说某个人“这鬼东西，还真机灵”。 

“拿不起来”在北京还有另一层意思，指没有能力，比如：他平时挺能说的，真有事儿的时候，拿不起来。


----------



## DernierVirage

linglin66 said:


> “拿不动”和“拿不起来”是一样的。
> 
> 另外，南方人会说“这鬼东西太重”；同样的语气，北京人可能会说“这破玩意儿太重”。但北方人会说某个人“这鬼东西，还真机灵”。
> 
> “拿不起来”在北京还有另一层意思，指没有能力，比如：他平时挺能说的，真有事儿的时候，拿不起来。


 
很有意思﹐多谢﹗



linglin66 said:


> 昨天的功课我做不好equals to 'I could not finish yesterday's homework perfectly.' It emphasizes that you don't have the ability to finish it with a high quality.
> 
> 昨天的功课我做得不好=I finished yesterday's homework but the quality was poor. It just tells the others the result. Maybe you didn't have enough time or you didn't take it seriously.


 
Thanks very much for your input ! As regards the sentence "昨天的功课我做不好" - if you have a quick look at post # 31, you will see that one interpretation is that this sentence does not actually make it clear whether or not the work was actually completed...Do you think that the use of 好 in this sort of sentence risks being ambiguous?

As regards the other sentence, 昨天的功课我做得不好, I think I'm 100% clear now, and I now understand from what you say, also another recent post, that this is a complement of degree, so it is definitely referring, as you say, to the quality of the work.

Thanks again !

I am going to print this whole thread and do a summary of all the valuable information to add to my study material...


----------



## YangMuye

derniervirage said:


> 我#41的句子（〝昨天的功课我做不好〞）您觉得清楚吗﹖


意思很清楚，因爲自身、自然而然或者未知的原因，而無法做好。
如諸位所言，功課有沒有做，實際上並沒有提及。但“沒有做過，怎麼知道做不好呢？”，我想說這句話的人肯定嘗試過，但結果並未做完。如果說“沒做好”，這點就很明確了。



形容詞似乎既可做表示能願的補語，又可表示結果的補語。又似乎單音節詞的使用形式受限制，例如“好”字：
好：定語/狀語(比較)。例：好字。（哪個？）這字好（有感嘆）。
好的：定語(極不自然)。例：好的字。
很好：狀語。例：字很好。
很好的：定語。例：很好的字。
不好：狀語/狀語(比較)。例：字不好

(做)得好：能願。例：字寫得好。
(做)不好：能願。例：字寫不好。

(做)得好：結果。例：這個字寫得好。這字寫得好（對比，感嘆）。
(做)得不好：結果。例：這個字寫得不好。
(做)得很好：結果。例：這個字寫得很好。

(做)好：結果。例：字寫好（命令）。字寫好了（完成）。
沒(做)好：結果。例：字沒寫好（完成）。

我不知道這些用法裡有沒有神秘的對應關係。:d


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## linglin66

昨天的功课我做不好
这句话确实说不清到底做没做完。


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## BODYholic

linglin66 said:


> 昨天的功课我做得不好=I finished yesterday's homework but the quality was poor. It just tells the others the result.



I was given 10 problem sums yesterday.
I attempted 5 of them but did badly.

The following day, my classmate asked, "昨天的功课做得怎样了?".
I said, "(昨天的功课我)做得不好.(做了五题都一样糟，干脆不做了)".

Both "昨天的功课我做不好" and "昨天的功课我做得不好"only tell the quality of homework, they don't give clue to the completion of task. Yes, you may say that the attempt / the trying has ceased but it does not imply that the assigned task is completed. I'm afraid this is a matter of logic, not grammar.

This may just be my personal preference,



I tend to use "做得不好" when recounting past events.
and "做不好" in active voice. Q:"做得怎样了?",A:"别提了,怎样做都做不好 / 还是做不好 / 就是做不好呀". Note: The task on hands is still incomplete at the point of asking.


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## DernierVirage

Thanks for all the helpful comments. Can I just check a couple of points with you again? I am of course not questioning the advice of native speakers, I am just trying to be sure that I understand everything clearly - apologies if I am being a bit slow 




linglin66 said:


> 昨天的功课我做不好
> 这句话确实说不清到底做没做完。


 
Since 好 is used as a potential complement here, can we nevertheless say that there is an underlying suggestion that the work was not completed? 



BODYholic said:


> I was given 10 problem sums yesterday.
> I attempted 5 of them but did badly.
> 
> The following day, my classmate asked, "昨天的功课做得怎样了?".
> I said, "(昨天的功课我)做得不好.(做了五题都一样糟，干脆不做了)".
> 
> Both "昨天的功课我做不好" and "昨天的功课我做得不好"only tell the quality of homework, they don't give clue to the completion of task. Yes, you may say that the attempt / the trying has ceased but it does not imply that the assigned task is completed. I'm afraid this is a matter of logic, not grammar.
> 
> This may just be my personal preference,
> 
> 
> 
> I tend to use "做得不好" when recounting past events.
> and "做不好" in active voice. Q:"做得怎样了?",A:"别提了,怎样做都做不好 / 还是做不好 / 就是做不好呀". Note: The task on hands is still incomplete at the point of asking.


 
In "昨天的功课我做得不好", since 好 is a complement of degree, is it fair to say that, although it is not stated if the work was finished, it is implied indirectly that this is the case. Otherwise, why would we not say 做不好 ?


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## BODYholic

I am typing this on my mobile. There are limitations how much I can write and please pardon me if there is any typo error.

To say completion in Chinese,
做好了, 做完了

To say incomplete in Chinese,
还没有做好 (or 还没做好),  还没有做完 (or 还没做完) (lit: have yet to complete/finish)

做不好 - The quality of work is undesirable. (Colloquially/informally, we do hear native speakers use this to imply the meaning of completion but this is unorthodox and only use when the context is very clear. e.g. A teacher may say this to his students, 做不好就别回家.  解：这里的先决条件是“要做得好”。老师要判断作业好坏，学生就必须提交。要提交的话，也得在作业完成后。所以，你所谓的“complement of degree”，在这情况下，其实只是间接性的产生。“做不好就别回家”是一句相当普及的句子。也许是听久了，一般华人都会习惯性的把它理解成“没做完就甭想回家”。it means that the teacher expects a certain degree of their work and arguably, the students have to complete the assignment before they can go home.)
做不完 - Unable to finish. Of cause, 做不完就别回家is completely clear and valid too.


posted via mobile


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## DernierVirage

YangMuye said:


> 意思很清楚，因爲自身、自然而然或者未知的原因，而無法做好。
> 如諸位所言，功課有沒有做，實際上並沒有提及。但“沒有做過，怎麼知道做不好呢？”，我想說這句話的人肯定嘗試過，但結果並未做完。如果說“沒做好”，這點就很明確了。
> 
> 形容詞似乎既可做表示能願的補語，又可表示結果的補語。又似乎單音節詞的使用形式受限制，例如“好”字：
> 好：定語/狀語(比較)。例：好字。（哪個？）這字好（有感嘆）。
> 好的：定語(極不自然)。例：好的字。
> 很好：狀語。例：字很好。
> 很好的：定語。例：很好的字。
> 不好：狀語/狀語(比較)。例：字不好
> 
> (做)得好：能願。例：字寫得好。
> (做)不好：能願。例：字寫不好。
> 
> (做)得好：結果。例：這個字寫得好。這字寫得好（對比，感嘆）。
> (做)得不好：結果。例：這個字寫得不好。
> (做)得很好：結果。例：這個字寫得很好。
> 
> (做)好：結果。例：字寫好（命令）。字寫好了（完成）。
> 沒(做)好：結果。例：字沒寫好（完成）。
> 
> 我不知道這些用法裡有沒有神秘的對應關係。:d


 


BODYholic said:


> I am typing this on my mobile. There are limitations how much I can write and please pardon me if there is any typo error.
> 
> To say completion in Chinese,
> 做好了, 做完了
> 
> To say incomplete in Chinese,
> 还没有做好, 还没有做完 (lit: have yet to complete/finish)
> 
> 做不好 - The quality of work is undesirable. (Colloquially/informally, we do hear native speakers use this to imply the meaning of completion but this is unorthodox and only use when the context is very clear. e.g. A teacher may say this to his students, 做不好就别回家. it means that the teacher expects a certain degree of their work and arguably, the students have to complete the assignment before they can go home.)
> 做不完 - Unable to finish. Of cause, 做不完就别回家is completely clear and valid too.
> 
> posted via mobile


 
Thanks very much to both of you for your additional help. I have highlighted in red above the key points that I noted and which are very helpful to know.

I now just need to digest all I have learned on the thread .


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