# Russian : камень



## MAROUSSE

Hello Everybody
I have a question about the origine of the russian word "камень". It seems to me that it comes from ancient Greek. I am looking for this word in Greek. I may be on the wrong track. Who could help me ? Thank you


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## Perseas

Hello,
According to Wiktionary: _From Proto-Slavic *kamy, from Proto-Indo-European *h₂éḱmō ..._


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## MAROUSSE

Thank you Perseas, I read some place that the word "Kem" (χƐμ) or "Kum (χυμ) existed in ancient Greek, meaning "blackened", but I cannot find it anywhere… so...
Have a good day.


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## Perseas

The Ancient Greek word "κάμινος" (oven, furnace) may be  related to the Proto-Slavic _"*kamy" (stone), _but according to my dictionary this is a speculation.
Similar information has this page: κάμινος - Wiktionary


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## MAROUSSE

Very interesting, no, not a speculation, you may have found the key-word I was looking for. κάμινος (if I read well : kaminos) should have been related to the practice of alchemy, the "oven" where stones like coal were burnt and turned into gold (in fact where coal was burned and turned into diamond, since they have the same molecular composition but not the same structure). Yes, this is my word. THANK YOU VERY VERY MUCH !


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## rushalaim

Perseas said:


> The Ancient Greek word "κάμινος" (oven, furnace) may be  related to the Proto-Slavic _"*kamy" (stone), _but according to my dictionary this is a speculation.
> Similar information has this page: κάμινος - Wiktionary


Russian has "kamin" ("oven") word. But some dictionaries write as if Russian word "kamen" ("stone") derived from Greek "akmen" ("anvil"), similar to English "hammer" related to Russian "kamen".


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## MAROUSSE

Could you find the greek writting for "akmen" ? I cannot find it in my dictionary. Anyway, I am sure you came accross the right word . камень (kamen) was not at all my concern but only a possible door to reach the word you found "κάμινος". I could not reach it through latin.  I guessed there was a chance through the russian language…


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## Perseas

It is ἄκμων.
It is related to Sanskrit _açmâ_, Old High German _hamar_, English hammer, Lithuanian _akmú._


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## AndrasBP

Perseas said:


> Lithuanian _akmú_


The modern Lithuanian form is *akmuo *(Genitive: akmens).
In Latvian, both the nominative and genitive form is *akmens*.


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## ahvalj

Perseas said:


> According to Wiktionary: _From Proto-Slavic *kamy, from Proto-Indo-European *h₂éḱmō ..._


The Slavic word is quite complicated etymologically.

One variant is that it derives from the root _*kehₐ-._ One might assume a metathesis from _*hₐekʲ- _and then we would be dealing with the following scenario:

_*kʲm _depalatalizes into _*km_ (both in proto-Slavic and proto-Baltic)
in proto-Slavic this _*hₐekm-_ metathesizes into _*kehₐm-_ (proto-Baltic retains the non-metathesized form)
It's not impossible but it implies that depalatalization occurred when laryngeals still existed preconsonantally, i. e. as early as in dialectal Proto-Indo-European (since Indo-Iranic does not depalatalize _*kʲ_) or soon after.

Another variant is that, like in Germanic,_ *hₐekm- > akm-_ (the modern Lithuanian and Latvian forms, #9) > _*kam-_ (> the Germanic xamaraz), but then the root vowel lengthened in Slavic into _*kām-,_ and did it early enough to produce the acute intonation. In this scenario the problem is in this lengthening, perhaps motivated by words like _*stāmen-_ (→ Old Church Slavonic verb _ustameniti_ “to place”, North Macedonian стамен).


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## danielstan

I cannot help myself to notice a new language appeared in Europe:
North Macedonian!

Yes, probably it is "politically correct", but still... the series of "new" languages that appeared in the last 30 years (Croatian, Bosnian and surprisingly: Montenegrin!) seems to never end.


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## OBrasilo

North Macedonian is not new, it's just the language formerly known as simply (Slavic) Macedonian and has existed for ages.


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## ahvalj

Well, the "North Macedonian" language is my own invention, a little trolling: I don't know if for joining the safe and happy North Atlantic family they were made to pay this price as well. Though the future looks promising since they still have the European Union as the ultimate target with Greece as (so far) a member (σλαβομακεδονική)…

Also, the East Balkanic form _стамен_ may look ambiguous, as it is equally derivable from _*stamьnъ:_ in this respect the Croatian, Croatian Bosnian, Muslim Bosnian, Serbian Bosnian, Serbian and Montenegrin form stamen is more solid as it can only come from _*stamenъ_ (since _*stamьnъ_ would have produced **_staman_).

Concerning the Slavic etymology. There is no doubt that this word comes from the above Proto-Indo-European _*hₐekʲmen-._ The problem is in several irregularities. A completely straightforward outcome would be _*osmy_ (accusative singular _*osmenь_), compare the Lithuanian ašmuo (accusative _ašmenį_). Assuming a depalatalization of _*kʲ_ before a sonorant (unpredictable but not infrequent in Balto-Slavic), we would expect _*okmy, *okmenь_ (Lithuanian akmuo, _akmenį_). Assuming a subsequent metathesis, we would expect _*komy, *komenь_ (Germanic xam-araz). Up to this stage we have trivial and confirmed phonetic changes. But the attested Slavic _a_ comes from _*ā,_ and the change from a short *_a_ to a long _*ā_ is unexpected in this environment and it is this that causes some troubles.


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## AndrasBP

ahvalj said:


> compare the Lithuanian ašmuo (accusative _ašmenį_).


If "ašmuo" (blade) shares its etymology with "akmuo", can we hypothesize that originally it referred to a chipped stone blade?


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## ahvalj

AndrasBP said:


> If "ašmuo" (blade) shares its etymology with "akmuo", can we hypothesize that originally it referred to a chipped stone blade?


That's what is most often assumed. The root is apparently hₐekʲ-. Compare in particular ἀκμή and ἄκων.

Another possibility is from “whetstone”, as in the Slavic osьl-: then _*hₐekʲmen- _(_-men-_ is the suffix of agent or instrument nouns) would have meant "sharpener, whetter".

_“Этимологический словарь славянских языков… Выпуск 9 (jьz – klenьje)” · ОН Трубачёв · 1983:_ 137 mentions _*kamorъ_ (cited in Wiktionary) continued in the dialectal Slovene _kamor_ "stone": if ancient, this would be the exact match to the Germanic and Indic words, but again with this puzzling _ka-_.


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## rastlin1

MAROUSSE said:


> Hello Everybody
> I have a question about the origine of the russian word "камень". It seems to me that it comes from ancient Greek. I am looking for this word in Greek. I may be on the wrong track. Who could help me ? Thank you


You have made mistakes in your post! Kamen is a common Slavonic word, not just the russian! The origin of  this word is a Celtic language.
Let's analyze.
Because Russian is a root - based tongue, let's list all the words with the common root of this word:
-каМЕНь
-дольМЕН
-креМЕНь
Дольмен is a Celtic word( in which men means a stone) whose root is in the other two. Not only they all have the same root, but also all 3 relate to various composition or shapes of stones.


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## ahvalj

ahvalj said:


> Well, the "North Macedonian" language is my own invention, a little trolling: I don't know if for joining the safe and happy North Atlantic family they were made to pay this price as well. Though the future looks promising since they still have the European Union as the ultimate target with Greece as (so far) a member (σλαβομακεδονική)…


A strike from another side:


> Bulgaria, as reported by Greek City Times, told “North Macedonia” that if it wants to become an EU member, it must drop the claim that a “Macedonian” minority exists in Bulgaria, as well as acknowledge that there is no Macedonian language and rather that they speak a Bulgarian dialect.


Sorry for this digression, I just wanted to restore the good name of Greece.


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## Awwal12

ahvalj said:


> Sorry for this digression, I just wanted to restore the good name of Greece.


I doubt it was necessary. As a matter of fact, the whole region is still highly nationalistic, in the most primitive forms, and Greece is by no means an exception. How it can come together with strong Christian sentiments among the population is almost beyond my understanding.


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