# על עבר פניה



## Holop

עַל-עֵבֶר פָּנֶיהָ

What would be your best translation of this phrase?


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## scriptum

"...that they may give light *over against it*" (King James Bible).
"...чтобы светили *на переднюю сторону его*" (Синодальный перевод).


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## Holop

scriptum said:


> "...that they may give light *over against it*" (King James Bible).
> "...чтобы светили *на переднюю сторону его*" (Синодальный перевод).



These two translation contradict each other. In russian it literaly says "to light on the front of it". Enlish version as you can see says "against it". Which is correct?


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## scriptum

I am not sure... The literal translation seems to be: "in the direction of its face".


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## amikama

Holop said:


> עַל-עֵבֶר פָּנֶיהָ


This is from Exodus 25:37, right? (Don't forget to add the context! )

The full verse:
 וְעָשִׂיתָ אֶת-נֵרֹתֶיהָ, שִׁבְעָה; וְהֶעֱלָה, אֶת-נֵרֹתֶיהָ, וְהֵאִיר, עַל-עֵבֶר פָּנֶיהָ.


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## Holop

amikama said:


> This is from Exodus 25:37, right? (Don't forget to add the context! )
> 
> The full verse:
> וְעָשִׂיתָ אֶת-נֵרֹתֶיהָ, שִׁבְעָה; וְהֶעֱלָה, אֶת-נֵרֹתֶיהָ, וְהֵאִיר, עַל-עֵבֶר פָּנֶיהָ.


Yes, you are correct.

I'm having a discussin with one guy, and he says that:

AL PANEHA - is translated as ON its surface.
LEFANEHA - is translated IN FRONT OF its surface.
Therefore EL EVER PANEHA (Ex 25:37) is translated TO THE MIDDLE.
Is he correct to say that? How is correctly to translate עַל-עֵבֶר פָּנֶיהָ ???


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## Holop

Any help, thanks?


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## origumi

In the language level I don't think you'd find any better translation than the ones provided by scriptum. This expression is not self-explained.

Regarding the actual meaning - it is usually agreed that the six candled were arranged in a way that they shed light on the central candle and on the candelabrum מנורה, or alternatively on the table that faces the menorah.
 
שד"ל:
כל הנרות יהיו מאירין לצד השולחן שכנגד המנורה

רש"י:
עשה פי ששת הנרות שבראשי הקנים, היוצאים מצדיה, מסובים כלפי האמצעי, כדי שיהיו הנרות כשתדליקם מאירים אל עבר פניה, מוסב אורם אל צד פני הקנה האמצעי

אבן עזרא:
ונכון הוא להיות טעם יערוך בעבור היות הנרות כחצי עיגולה

רבי סעדיה גאון:
ויהי עניין הקפת ששת הנרות למחצית העיגול שמרכזו הנר השביעי עד שנעשית צורתם כקשת, כדרך תלמידים היושבים לפני רבם מקיפים אותו כחצי קשת והוא במרכז


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## Holop

origumi said:


> *In the language level* I don't think you'd find any better translation than the ones provided by scriptum. This expression is not self-explained.
> 
> Regarding the actual meaning - *it is usually agreed* that the six candled were arranged in a way that they shed light on the central candle and on the candelabrum מנורה, or alternatively on the table that faces the menorah.


I am looking for answer in the language level (*literal* level). That's why I didn't provide the context. Because people tend to give a biased ("_it is usually agreed"_) opinion if you provide context in this case.

Can you, origumi, provide literal עַל-עֵבֶר פָּנֶיהָ translation? Does this phrase translate to "on the opposite side of the facade"?



origumi said:


> שד"ל:
> כל הנרות יהיו מאירין לצד השולחן שכנגד המנורה
> 
> רש"י:
> עשה פי ששת הנרות שבראשי הקנים, היוצאים מצדיה, מסובים כלפי האמצעי, כדי שיהיו הנרות כשתדליקם מאירים אל עבר פניה, מוסב אורם אל צד פני הקנה האמצעי
> 
> אבן עזרא:
> ונכון הוא להיות טעם יערוך בעבור היות הנרות כחצי עיגולה
> 
> רבי סעדיה גאון:
> ויהי עניין הקפת ששת הנרות למחצית העיגול שמרכזו הנר השביעי עד שנעשית צורתם כקשת, כדרך תלמידים היושבים לפני רבם מקיפים אותו כחצי קשת והוא במרכז


 Sorry, didn't understand a single word from the above.


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## Holop

Finally I found out the problem. Unfortunately nobody gave me the correct answer on this forum.... So I am writting the following for the other people who might inquire about it in the future.

This word *פנים* can be read either *panim* or *pnim*.

*Panim* means _face side, the front or facade_.
*Pnim* means _middle, core_. 

So phrase עַל-עֵבֶר פָּנֶיהָ without vowls (niqqud) can be translated as either "*to the middle*" or "*on the opposite side of the face*".


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## origumi

Now seriously: פָּנֶיהָ is related to panim (face), not to pnim (interior), no matter what nikkud you take.


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## scriptum

Good morning Holop


origumi said:


> פָּנֶיהָ is related to panim (face), not to pnim (interior), no matter what nikkud you take.


More exactly, the very nikkud of the word tells clearly that the meaning is "face". This is why nobody thought of other possibilities.
It is quite certain that no one wanted to hide anything from you. I hope you will soon discover that people here are friendly and co-operative.
Welcome to the forum.


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## Holop

scriptum said:


> Good morning Holop
> 
> More exactly, the very nikkud of the word tells clearly that the meaning is "face". This is why nobody thought of other possibilities.
> It is quite certain that no one wanted to hide anything from you. I hope you will soon discover that people here are friendly and co-operative.


 Sorry if I sounded too harsh, but I just couldn't understand why "friendly" people ignored my question in post #9. All I wanted is to get to the bottom of the confusion.


scriptum said:


> Welcome to the forum.


Thank you.



			
				origumi said:
			
		

> Now seriously: פָּנֶיהָ is related to panim (face), not to pnim (interior), no matter what nikkud you take.


 Could you please explain then why is it "usually agreed that the six candled were arranged in a way that they shed light on the central candle" instead of the front? If it clearly implies that lamstand had a front face, why is it menorah light are forwarded to the center of the lampstand rather that to the front?


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## origumi

Holop said:


> Could you please explain then why is it "usually agreed that the six candled were arranged in a way that they shed light on the central candle" instead of the front? If it clearly implies that lamstand had a front face, why is it menorah light are forwarded to the center of the lampstand rather that to the front?


This is what three of the four very wise men quoted above (in Medieval Hebrew) suggest. Yet, as was said before, they care more about the Menorah's shape than about the linguistic aspect.


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## Holop

Thanks again, *origumi*, for the full answer! Now I understand the whole situation with פָּנֶיהָ clearly. 
Best regards,
Holop


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