# Why is German so deviant?



## 22caps

Hey, I don't speak German at all, but I was wondering if someone could explain to me why German, of all other languages, changes the most between languages. 

 For instance...  English = German.... Spanish = Alemán.... Italian = Tedesco... German = Deutsche (sp?)... 

Whereas for, let's say, Spanish.... English = Spanish.... Spanish = Español.... Italian = Spagnolo.... French = Espagnole.....

They are all very similar for other languages, just not German.  Anybody know the origin or reason of this?


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## mddb

An interesting question, indeed. I am far from being sure of this, but i wonder if it could somehow be related to the fact that Germany is a very recent nation, only existing as such since the 1870s. Before that, there were many small independent states and principalties (the landers, i believe they are called now), each with its name. So, to name them as a whole, as a people, maybe each language took a different reference depending on which nation they were confronted to, or something like this. Maybe someone else has more ideas on this.


Nevertheless, in the examples you give, there may be less differences than what appears at first glance: the spanish word "alemán" suggests it may have been originally the arabic word for "the germans" (al-german, or something like that), so it would be just like in english or french.

(i may be absolutelly wrong, as i am supposing all this, but is someone knows for true maybe he/she could shed some light on this).


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## gaer

22caps said:
			
		

> Hey, I don't speak German at all, but I was wondering if someone could explain to me why German, of all other languages, changes the most between languages.
> 
> For instance... English = German.... Spanish = Alemán.... Italian = Tedesco... German = Deutsche (sp?)...
> 
> Whereas for, let's say, Spanish.... English = Spanish.... Spanish = Español.... Italian = Spagnolo.... French = Espagnole.....
> 
> They are all very similar for other languages, just not German. Anybody know the origin or reason of this?


 
I have no idea, but it's interesting that it's so close the other way:

English=Englisch

More interesting to me is that German seems closer grammatically to English than French and Spanish. (The words order is often dramatically different, but otherwise there are striking similarities.)


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## Ralf

mddb said:
			
		

> ... if it could somehow be related to the fact that Germany is a very recent nation, only existing as such since the 1870s. Before that, there were many small independent states and principalties (the landers, i believe they are called now), each with its name. So, to name them as a whole, as a people, maybe each language took a different reference depending on which nation they were confronted to, or something like this. Maybe someone else has more ideas on this.


Well, I think the answer dates back some 2,000 years rather than can be found 200 years ago. The German spoken in various German states didn't differ that much. In fact, the term 'German' in reference to the people and language had been already established in early mediaeval ages. On the other hand, as far as I know, the language of the German tribes can be assumed to had been characterized by striking differences. About 500 B.C. the first vowel shift in German language caused an assimilation of several languages or better dialects and adopted various expressions to refer to one and the same term. So it is not unlikely that various expressions had been used to refer to the German language.

One of the larger tribes had been called the 'Teutons', who unmistakably gave rise to 'teutonic' and the related adjectives 'teutsch' (mediaeval) and 'deutsch' or 'te desca' (italian), while 'german' is of Latin origin. By the way, as far as I know, the Teutons settled across northern and northwestern Europe (Scandinavia, Great Britain). 



			
				mddb said:
			
		

> Nevertheless, in the examples you give, there may be less differences than what appears at first glance: the spanish word "alemán" suggests it may have been originally the arabic word for "the germans" (al-german, or something like that), so it would be just like in english or french.


This absolutely correct.


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## Tede

What a coincidence, we were talking about this yesterday in German class!  Ralf is pretty close to the mark, it started 2000 years ago with the Romans and a guy named Cornelius Tacitus in AD 98, a Roman historian.  The people living in the area known as Germany were dispersed and "barbaric" (to the Romans), so he called him, in Latin, Germanen.  When the Romans went north, they brought language, culture, and technology with them.  Some of the tribes allowed themselves to become latinized, these were the French (for the most part).

There are a few reasons other lands call Germans by different names, but mostly it's due to the fact that the German people were semi-nomadic and had no major cities or unification beyond language.  That is to say, they were not a well defined nation.  For instance, most European nations have one _major_ city, like Paris, or Rome, that is clearly the center.  But in Germany, you don't really have that.  Berlin is trying to become that center, but 1000 years ago there wasn't a cultural or economic center.

Anyway, the English called the Dutch people the Dutch (and the Germans call themselves "deutsch"), but then they heard from the Romans of these other people past the Dutch, these Germans, so they called the country Germany (Germania in Italian).  Many other languages call the Germans something related to "foreigner" or "stranger".

As far as the origin of the word Deutch and Deutchland, the Teutons and Charlemagne (Karl der Grosse in German, or "Karl the Big Guy") had a lot to do with it.  The Teutons threated the Roman Empire 113-101 BC, they called themselves "teutonisch", from which "deutch" is a derivative.  Karl der Grosse started using this word and spreading it's popularity.

Well there's a nutshell discription, there's a lot more to it than that but if you were just curious, hopefully this satiates you.


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## Ralf

Really interesting, Tede. Thanks a lot. Sometimes it is really worth to contemplate about one's own native language.


			
				Tede said:
			
		

> ... Berlin is trying to become that center, but 1000 years ago there wasn't a cultural or economic center.


Well, this is an intersting aspect as well. But the fact that Berlin has to 'take pains' to become the 'nation's center' today is also a result of the recent history since 1945. Because of the predominating Prussia Berlin had been the capital of Germany since the unification of the "Deutsche Reich" in 1871. However, you are absolutely right in your explanations and conclusions.

Cheers,

Ralf


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## 22caps

Wow!  I am always amazed at the wealth of knowledge on this website.  I consider myself satiated.  Thanks!


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## Whodunit

I'm also really impressed. I didn't know all these facts yet, but I can add that there might have been some certain tribes that founded their nations in other contries. Because it isn't different from nation to nation as the word "Deutsch" is called, since in Spanish it's Alemán, in Arabic 'almaanii ( ألمانى ), in French allemand (almost the same stem) and with German (English): the proper Latin word is Germanus/Germanicus that means something like brotherly/true/..., in Hebrew it's germanith ( גרמוית ). And I think the Chinese word is also something like this with the same stem.

But I cannot find a proper word in another language for tedesco.

Nevertheless, Tede did a good job and I don't know what to add any more.


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## gaer

Tede said:
			
		

> What a coincidence, we were talking about this yesterday in German class! Ralf is pretty close to the mark, it started 2000 years ago with the Romans and a guy named Cornelius Tacitus in AD 98, a Roman historian. The people living in the area known as Germany were dispersed and "barbaric" (to the Romans), so he called him, in Latin, Germanen. When the Romans went north, they brought language, culture, and technology with them. Some of the tribes allowed themselves to become latinized, these were the French (for the most part). (cutting...


 
Very, very interesting! Thanks for giving us that information.


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## Cynethrith

Thanks for the info, I've been wondering about this too


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## Outsider

mddb said:
			
		

> Nevertheless, in the examples you give, there may be less differences than what appears at first glance: the spanish word "alemán" suggests it may have been originally the arabic word for "the germans" (al-german, or something like that), so it would be just like in english or french.


I don't think so. The French word "Allemand" and the Spanish word "Alemán" (Portuguese "Alemão", etc.) are derived from the Latin "Alamanni", the name of one of the Germanic tribes that settled in Western Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire.


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## Apus

whodunit said:
			
		

> I'm also really impressed. I didn't know all these facts yet, but I can add that there might have been some certain tribes that founded their nations in other contries. Because it isn't different from nation to nation as the word "Deutsch" is called, since in Spanish it's Alemán, in Arabic 'almaanii ( ألمانى ), in French allemand (almost the same stem) and with German (English): the proper Latin word is Germanus/Germanicus that means something like brotherly/true/..., in Hebrew it's germanith ( גרמוית ). And I think the Chinese word is also something like this with the same stem.


 
_Alamann_ was the name of a German tribe established on the sides of the Rhine and in Switzerland. The name has nothing to do with Arabic. Not all names beginning with al- are Arabic. The Arabic word is a borrowing from either Spanish or French. The root of Alamann is al- from which are also Greek _allos_ "other", English _else, alien_, Old High German _Elisâzzo_ Elsaz (French _Alsace_): the land on the _other_ side of the Rhine.

English _German_ is borrowed from Latin _Germanus_ which mean "real" (Italian _germano_ "true real"). It was first mentioned by Poseidonios, Tacitus and Caesar. It is the exact equivalent of the French _franc_ meaning "true" and is also the name of the Germanic tribe who immigrated into northern France (the _Franks_), and means "the real ones":
The Germans were called by the Ancient Greeks _Gnesioi_ (the true ones). The Germans call themselves _Deutsch_, from a name meaning "the people", and cognate to Latvian _tauta_, Lithuanian _tauta_ "people", and also "Germany". Old High German _diot_ "people", _diutisk_ "German", Dutch _Duits "German"_. _Dutch_ was a name given by the British to the Germanic peoples but later has been restricted to the Netherlanders.
From "Deutsch" comes the Italian _Tedesco_ and the French _Teuton._The Germans are called _Saksa_ (the Saxons) by the Scandinavians, _Saksalaiset_ by the Finns, _Vâcietis_ by the Lithuanians (those from the West), _Nem_ by the Hungarians, _Neamts_ by the Romans, _Niemcy_ by the Poles, _Nemdzios_ by the Modern Greeks, _Nemets_ by the Russians, these words are related to Italian _nimico_ "ennemy" (The eastern European peoples having suffered many invasions by the Germanic tribes have come to call them "the ennemy").

Hope this helps.


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## Silvia

I loved this discussion. What's been said so far is very very interesting.

Let's solve the puzzle about the word "tedesco" 

If you look at it, the word tedesco is quite similar to "deutsch" and this is not a mere coincidence: they share the same root. In middle age, in the German territory (that is what we call Germany now), which was not unified, two languages were spoken: Latin (by clergy and educated people) and a popular/vulgar language called "Theodisce". This word appears for the first time in a paper dated 786 a.C. and comes from German dialects, simply meaning "of people". Therefore, originally "lingua tedesca" simply defined the "language of people", opposite to  Latin that was the language of monks, sages and those who could write and read. From "theodiscus" it evolved to "deutsch" by the Germans and "tedesco" in Italy by common Italian people.

In France, the term "allemand" is used , but also other words such as "germanique" and "tudesque". Apus explained the origin of the word "allemand" already, and to this day the german dialect spoken in those areas is called "alemannisch".


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## Jana337

> _Nemets_ by the Russians, these words are related to Italian _nimico_ "ennemy" (The eastern European peoples having suffered many invasions by the Germanic tribes have come to call them "the ennemy")



Like everyone else I appreciate this thread very much. However, the above quote puzzles me quite a bit. I have never seen such an explanation for the expressions the Slavic people use for the Germans. Here's what I incidentally posted in another thread a couple of days ago:



> The Czech name for Germany literally means "Dumbland" (dumb in the sense of "mute", "unable to speak", not "stupid"). The language the German tribes used was absolutely incomprehensible for the Slavic population. It was equally impossible to communicate with a German as it was with a dumb person.
> This holds for all Slavic languages as far as I am aware.



I checked into this again. I find it very unlikely that we borrowed from Italians in those distant times. The connection between "němý" (mute) and "Německo" (Germany), "němčina" (German, the language), "Němec" (German, the person), "německá" (German, the adjective), on the other hand, is very clear.

This is what I was told at school. This explanation is also widespread in the Czech internet. I haven't discovered a single source supporting what Apus wrote.

Jana


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## Whodunit

Apus said:
			
		

> Alamann was the name of a German tribe established on the sides of the Rhine and in Switzerland. The name has nothing to do with Arabic. Not all names beginning with al- are Arabic. The Arabic word is a borrowing from either Spanish or French. The root of Alamann is al- from which are also Greek allos "other", English else, alien, Old High German Elisâzzo Elsaz (French Alsace): the land on the other side of the Rhine.
> 
> English German is borrowed from Latin Germanus which mean "real" (Italian germano "true real"). It was first mentioned by Poseidonios, Tacitus and Caesar. It is the exact equivalent of the French franc meaning "true" and is also the name of the Germanic tribe who immigrated into northern France (the Franks), and means "the real ones":
> The Germans were called by the Ancient Greeks Gnesioi (the true). The Germans call themselves Deutsch, from a name meaning "the people" (never heard such a meaning of "Deutsch"), and cognate to Latvian tauta, Lithuanian tauta "people", and also "Germany". Old High German diot "people", diutisk "German", Dutch Duits "German". Dutch was a name given by the British to the Germanic peoples but later has been restricted to the Netherlanders.
> From "Deutsch" comes the Italian Tedesco and the French Teuton. The Germans are called Saksa (the Saxons) by the Scandinavians, Saksalaiset by the Finns, Vâcietis by the Lithuanians (those from the West), Nem by the Hungarians, Neamts by the Romans, Niemcy by the Poles, Nemdzios by the Modern Greeks, Nemets by the Russians, these words are related to Italian n*e*mico "enemy" (The eastern European peoples having suffered many invasions by the Germanic tribes have come to call them "the enemy").
> 
> Hope this helps.



I didn't declared that the origin of "Alemand/alemán/..." is from an Arabic word. I only wanted to say that French, Spanish, Portuguese (as you said), and Arabic use the same stem to identify the "German" language.

Jana gave another stem of the Slavic people: "nemec", e.g. Russian and Czech. I don't know Rhaeto-Romanic but that may also have such a stem.

I'm not very good at etymology, so I don't want to dispute on anything anyone wrote.

And as far as I remember my vocabulary, there isn't any related German word that means something like "true, real, mute, or enemy".


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## Vanda

It's interesting how this word was modified in all these languages.

I've always listened to the Italian immigrants in my country using the word
"tedesco" referring to Germans. After reading all the comments above I looked it up in my Portuguese dic and found that we have a mutation from the Italian word to *tudesco.* And the explanation below:
 "From old  high German: thiutisk, diutisc, 'popular', as opposed to "scholar" (al. mod. deutsch), from  latin  theudiscus and from French  tudesque or from Spanish  tudesco.


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## MrMagoo

22caps said:
			
		

> Hey, I don't speak German at all, but I was wondering if someone could explain to me why German, of all other languages, changes the most between languages.
> 
> For instance... English = German.... Spanish = Alemán.... Italian = Tedesco... German = Deutsche (sp?)...
> 
> Whereas for, let's say, Spanish.... English = Spanish.... Spanish = Español.... Italian = Spagnolo.... French = Espagnole.....
> 
> They are all very similar for other languages, just not German. Anybody know the origin or reason of this?


 

Very interesting question - and even more interesting answers...

May I support you a little bit:


Ralf wrote:


> Well, I think the answer dates back some 2,000 years rather than can be found 200 years ago. The German spoken in various German states didn't differ that much.


 
The German dialects are _very_ different from each other, they always have been. Only because of the fact that writing and reading became more popular and necessary, the dialects "unitised", kind of, on the basis of standard grammars.
As the German speaking areas were untited not before 1871, almost every kingdom had its own spelling rules, which of course had an effect on the spoken language as well... the more people could read and write, the more influence from a standardized grammar.



Ralf:


> About 500 B.C. the first vowel shift in German language caused an assimilation of several languages or better dialects and adopted various expressions to refer to one and the same term. So it is not unlikely that various expressions had been used to refer to the German language.


 
Oh no no... shifts usualy do the opposite: They separate languages.
The first consonant shift (about 2000 B.C.) separated the Germanic languages from the Indogermanic group. 
You can still see these changes when you compare a language that didn't participate in this shift to another one which did, e.g. Latin and English:
The Germanic "f" corresponds to the Indogermanic "p", e.g.:
Latin: "pater" ---> Englisch: "Father".

The 2nd consonant shift (about 6th century) excluded the High-German language from all the other Germanic languages.

A Germanic "p" turned to either "pf" or "ff" in High-German, e.g.:
English and Low-German: Ape ---> High-German: Affe
English pound, LG: Pund ---> HG: Pfund

A Germanic "t" turned to either "ss" or "(t)z" in High-German, e.g.:
English, LG: Water ---> HG: Wasser
English heat ---> HG: Hitze

A Germanic "k" shifted to "ch" in High-German:
English, LG: Milk ---> HG: Milch
(---> Just take a dictionary and look several words up yourself, you'll see there are thousands of words where you can notice these shifts).




Ralf:


> One of the larger tribes had been called the 'Teutons', who unmistakably gave rise to 'teutonic' and the related adjectives 'teutsch' (mediaeval) and 'deutsch' or 'te desca' (italian), while 'german' is of Latin origin. By the way, as far as I know, the Teutons settled across northern and northwestern Europe (Scandinavia, Great Britain).


 
Tede:


> As far as the origin of the word Deutch and Deutchland, the Teutons and Charlemagne (Karl der Grosse in German, or "Karl the Big Guy") had a lot to do with it. The Teutons threated the Roman Empire 113-101 BC, they called themselves "teutonisch", from which "deutch" is a derivative. Karl der Grosse started using this word and spreading it's popularity.


 

I have to disappoint you in this case, Ralf and Tede  
--> Deriving "deutsch" from "teutonisch" is _volksetymologisch_ and not correct.

The term "deutsch" is derived from the Gothic adjective *þiutisc*, an adjective of the noun _þiuda_, which means "Volk, the people".
"deutsch" simply means "völkisch, zum Volk gehörig = belonging to the people".
The Germans (="Die Deutschen") therefore are the only people in the world that named itself after the _language_ they speak, not the tribe they belong to.

"deutsch" referring to the language was first mentioned as _*theotisce* _by Otfried von Weißenburg, a scholar of Karl der Große, in the 8th century:
_Cur scriptor hunc librum theotisce dictaverit_.
(=Why this book is written in German).
---> Otfried wrote a Gospel book in German and he had to declare and explain to the bishop why he has written the book in "theotisce" (= the language of the people), and not in Latin which would have been the more appropriate language for Gospels that time. This declaration of course had to be in Latin though, anyway, Otfried used "theotisc" to have an expression separated from the Latin "germanicus".


Bye for now 
-MrMagoo


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## Jana337

Hier ist dazu ein italienischer (auf Englisch geschriebener) Faden. Es gibt dort nicht besonders viel zu lesen, aber vollständigkeitshalber verlinke ich die beiden.

Jana


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## gaer

Who,

If you don't mind, I'm going to make a couple suggestions:
====
_I didn't declared *state/say* that the origin of "Alemand/alemán/..." is from an Arabic word. I only wanted to say that French, Spanish, Portuguese (as you said), and Arabic use the same stem to identify the "German" language._
------
In this sentence, "declare" sounds stiff. Not necessarily wrong, but it sounds strange to me.
====
_I'm not very good at etymology, so I don't want to dispute on anything anyone wrote._
------
I have a suggestion for you, if it is not too difficult:

_I'm not very good at etymology, so I had/have no intention of disputing anything anyone wrote._

I believe you can use either "had" or "have" here, depending on the exact meaning you wish to communicate. Personally, I would tend to use "had" simply because you seem to be talking about comments already made, and that sort of statement most people would assume would mean that you would not want to do such a thing in the future. It's a fine point. 

Gaer


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> Who,
> 
> If you don't mind, I'm going to make a couple suggestions:
> ====
> _I didn't declared *state/say* that the origin of "Alemand/alemán/..." is from an Arabic word. I only wanted to say that French, Spanish, Portuguese (as you said), and Arabic use the same stem to identify the "German" language._
> ------
> In this sentence, "declare" sounds stiff. Not necessarily wrong, but it sounds strange to me.
> ====
> _I'm not very good at etymology, so I don't want to dispute on anything anyone wrote._
> ------
> I have a suggestion for you, if it is not too difficult:
> 
> _I'm not very good at etymology, so I had/have no intention of disputing anything anyone wrote._
> 
> I believe you can use either "had" or "have" here, depending on the exact meaning you wish to communicate. Personally, I would tend to use "had" simply because you seem to be talking about comments already made, and that sort of statement most people would assume would mean that you would not want to do such a thing in the future. It's a fine point.
> 
> Gaer


 
When I saw this thread yesterday, I wanted to edit my post because of some mistakes in my "former" () English, but since that post was older than three days, I couldn't modify it anymore. However, thank you for the tips and corrections.


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## gaer

Whodunit said:
			
		

> When I saw this thread yesterday, I wanted to edit my post because of some mistakes in my "former" () English, but since that post was older than three days, I couldn't modify it anymore. However, thank you for the tips and corrections.


You're welcome, and I just learnd about the "three day rule". I see that the "edit" button disappears for posts older. I didn't know that! 

Gaer


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## Outsider

Whodunit said:
			
		

> I'm also really impressed. I didn't know all these facts yet, but I can add that there might have been some certain tribes that founded their nations in other contries. Because it isn't different from nation to nation as the word "Deutsch" is called, since in Spanish it's Alemán, in Arabic 'almaanii ( ألمانى ), in French allemand (almost the same stem) and with German (English): the proper Latin word is Germanus/Germanicus that means something like brotherly/true/..., in Hebrew it's germanith ( גרמוית ).


So it's more likely that Arabic borrowed the word from a Romance language, and not the other way around...


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## malemany

This is very interesting considering my last name "alemany" is closely similar to the word aleman. And I have been trying to do research on the origins of my last name and reading these postings have given me a better understanding as to its roots. Was always confused as to whether it was of arabic, spanish or germanic origins. I know it came from catalonia spain thats about it. Thanks everyone.


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## Apus

malemany said:
			
		

> This is very interesting considering my last name "alemany" is closely similar to the word aleman. And I have been trying to do research on the origins of my last name and reading these postings have given me a better understanding as to its roots. Was always confused as to whether it was of arabic, spanish or germanic origins. I know it came from catalonia spain thats about it. Thanks everyone.


 
Hi!
The family name Allemand, Lallemand, Alleman, Allamont, Allemany is fairly widespread in France and French Switzerland. Allemany, Alemany is a typical Catalunyan ending.


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## cyanista

Thank you so much, Jana, for posting a link to this interesting and useful thread!  This question has been puzzling me for a long time, and it feels so good to be rid of it at last.  

I couldn't for the life of me figure out that there is a connection between "Deutschland" and the Norwegian name for Germany "Tyskland" but now it seems obvious that they both stem from the common root _thiutisk, diutisc. _Well, I get more and more interested in etymology!




			
				Jana337 said:
			
		

> The Czech name for Germany literally means "Dumbland" (dumb in the sense of "mute", "unable to speak", not "stupid"). The language the German tribes used was absolutely incomprehensible for the Slavic population. It was equally impossible to communicate with a German as it was with a dumb person.
> This holds for all Slavic languages as far as I am aware.
> Jana


I'll second that.


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## DaleC

Since "deutsch" derives from thiutisk or a similar pronunciation, it is clear that so does the Italian "tedesco". Thiutisk --> tiutisk. Tiu - tisk --> te - desk - o. 

I haven't looked up the historical details. For example, it's possible that the original Italian form of 1200 - 1500 years ago was closer to ti - tisk -o. 

About the Slavic name: it was common worldwide for peoples to give hostile or insulting names to neighboring tribes or even to all outsiders. It has been claimed that the Greek word "barbarian" consists of Greeks mocking how foreign languages sounded to them. So it is very reasonable to suppose that the Slavs called the Germans "mute". Possibly also, the Slavic word may have had a broader range of meaning at the time.


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## xav

Two pence more.



> Deriving "deutsch" from "teutonisch" is _volksetymologisch_ and not correct.
> 
> The term "deutsch" is derived from the Gothic adjective *þiutisc*, an adjective of the noun _þiuda_, which means "Volk, the people".


 
I completely agree. "Deutsch" doesn't come from "Teuton", but both derive from _þiuda _(þ = English "th") which means "Volk, people". Teutons had disappeared long before the word "thiutisk" was created. Today's word
"Deutsch" is exactly the same one as tedesco = tudesque = tudesco, since the Roman final -esco comes from German -isk.

I suppose that if Otfried von Weissenburg used this term "theotisce" instead of "germanice", that was to say "in the language the people uses and understands". Exactly on the same way, when, a bit later, somebody said the priests had to preach in "French", he used the expression "lingua vulgare", from "vulgum" = "people". "Theotisce" is the translation of this expression in German (with a Latin "-e" for ablatif !).

Today's German word "deutlich" has the same origin and a very near meaning : "clear" = "which everybody understands".



> _Alamann_ was the name of a German tribe established on the sides of the Rhine and in Switzerland. The name has nothing to do with Arabic. Not all names beginning with al- are Arabic. The Arabic word is a borrowing from either Spanish or French. The root of Alamann is al- from which are also Greek _allos_ "other", English _else, alien_, Old High German _Elisâzzo_ Elsaz (French _Alsace_): the land on the _other_ side of the Rhine.


I agree with the first part, but I don't think a people can call himself "The other ones" ! For me, "Alla Man" means "All the men". And Ellsass is the country of the Ill, the river which flows through it, from Sundgau to Strasbourg.

About the main question "why didn't people around Germany call its inhabitants Germans, as the Romans did ?", I propose this (for western Europe languages) : 
When they had to give a name to these inhabitants, Western Europe people couldn't call them "Germans", since they already had German people at home : Franks, Lombards, Wisigoths, Angels or Saxons... a big choice. They had to use another word for naming German people who still were living in Germany. French people gave them the name of the next German people they knew, the Alamanni, exactly as the Scandinavian did with the Saxons. That name was used afterwards by Hispanic and Arab people. Italian people used the name forged by Otfried, which came into French, Spanish etc. too, but was never much in use.


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## Outsider

xav said:
			
		

> I completely agree. "Deutsch" doesn't come from "Teuton", but both derive from _þiuda _(þ = English "th") which means "Volk, people". Teutons had disappeared long before the word "thiutisk" was created.


Isn't "thiutisk" a Gothic word? The Goths had disappeared long before the Teutonic Knights emerged. Perhaps that's what you meant.


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## xav

You're completely right - I hadn't thought about the Teutonic Knights ! 
I was, like Tede hereover (#5), speaking about the Teutons, a Germanic tribe who was defeated and destroyed, with their brothers the Cimbers, by Marius in Provence 100 years BC.
"Thiutisk" is of course a Gothic or Germanic word, but I think it was forged rather late, in parallel to the Latin expression "lingua vulgare", to mean the languages spoken and understood by everybody in High Middle Age. This word translates a notion of "all Germanic languages spoken in a common politic area", what probably didn't exist before the Holy Roman Empire of Karolus Magnus. Before that, the name of each tribe should have been used for its language, as they still today speak "Moselfränkisch", "Platt", "Schwäbisch", "Bayrisch" etc. (My father pretends German doesn't really exist !).
Not sure. I'll look into my Dudenherkunftswörterbuch  !

_the day after : _It says the same thing : "Deutsch" is probably the only name of a people which comes from his language. It originally means "the non-roman speaking people of the Holy Roman Empire". Hence the problem of the German identity (Wer ist Deutsch ?), hence the _jus sanguinis_, the exaltation of this blood and of the race, and nazism. And the fact this name and this identity came late and were weak for a long time drove people around to invent their own way to name this people.


----------



## Outsider

xav said:
			
		

> You're completely right - I hadn't thought about the Teutonic Knights !
> I was, like Tede hereover (#5), speaking about the Teutons, a Germanic tribe who was defeated and destroyed, with their brothers the Cimbers, by Marius in Provence 100 years BC.


Oh, I didn't know about _those_ Teutons.


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## xav

Apus said:
			
		

> The family name Allemand, Lallemand, Alleman, Allamont, Allemany is fairly widespread in France and French Switzerland. Allemany, Alemany is a typical Catalunyan ending.


But the "y" is typically arab ! "Alemany" = "almaani" is the interesting mix of a Germanic word "All-man" with a Semitic ending "i" or "y", which means "from the tribe, the city or the country named...".


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## DaleC

Good move! You've just given insult to 8 -9 million Catalans! (I myself have no Catalonian ancestry or ties.) 

'ny' is the equivalent in the Catalan alphabet of French 'gn' and Spanish 'ñ'. 'Allemagne', 'Alemany' -- they're pronounced the same (except for trivial differences in the vowels). 



			
				xav said:
			
		

> But the "y" is typically arab ! "Alemany" = "almaani" is the interesting mix of a Germanic word "All-man" with a Semitic ending "i" or "y", which means "from the tribe, the city or the country named...".


 



> La Catalogne (*Catalunya *en catalan;*Cataluña *en espagnol) est une région de 31 930 km² (à peu près l'équivalent de la Belgique) située au nord-est de l'Espagne (_voir la carte détaillée_).


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## OMOIKANE

Hi. Russian words "nEmets", "nEmtsy" (from "nemOy"("mute")) - 
"don't speaking (russian)", "alien", "foreigner". Like "bakagaidjin" in Nipponese.
But present days russians do not associate "nemets" with "nemoy", this is just name for people from Germany (Germania).
Sorry 'bout my runglish, i can't write english properly.


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## Whodunit

OMOIKANE said:


> Hi. Russian words "nEmets", "nEmtsy" (from "nemOy"("mute")) -
> "don't speaking (russian)", "alien", "foreigner". Like "bakagaidjin" in Nipponese.


 
What does 馬鹿外人 has to do with Germans and this thread? Do you mean that Немцы would mean "stupid foreigner?" 



> But present days russians do not associate "nemets" with "nemoy", this is just name for people from Germany (Germania).
> Sorry 'bout my runglish, i can't write english properly.


 
But you could try to follow our rules (#22).


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## MrMagoo

Whodunit said:


> What does 馬鹿外人 has to do with Germans and this thread? Do you mean that Немцы would mean "stupid foreigner?"



"Немцы" means "not speaking (Russian")", as Omoikane explained. 
Somebody who doesn't speak your language is a foreigner first of all, and somebody who doesn't speak your language might be regarded to be stupid in a certain way. Of course, this is not what the Russian word means, but keep in mind that these words are thousands of years old, developed when globalisation was not as "popular"  as today... 




> But you could try to follow our rules (#22).



My goodness, it was just an apostrophe, Who'  I wouldn't have noticed it, if you hadn't said a word... 

Cheers
-MrMagoo


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## cyanista

In der Umgangssprache kann "немец" immer noch eine nicht besonders  schlaue, langsame Person bedeuten.  So was sagen natürlich nur Leute, die ehmm.. nicht sehr gebildet sind (leider gehören dazu ein Paar von meinen Schullehrern, die Kinder ab und zu so beschimft haben: "Ну что за немцы!").


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## FloVi

cyanista said:


> So was sagen natürlich nur Leute, die ehmm.. nicht sehr gebildet sind (leider gehören dazu ein Paar von meinen Schullehrern, die Kinder ab und zu so beschimft haben: "Ну что за немцы!").


Wer's sagt isses selber, lachen alle Kälber...

SCNR


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## ceann-feachd

Whodunit said:


> But I cannot find a proper word in another language for tedesco.



Well, in Icelandic, it's _þýska_ (THEES-ka) for the language and _Þýskaland_ (THEES-ka-land) for the country.

Somewhat similar, right?

 Auf isländisch, die Sprache heißt _þýska_ und das Land heißt _Þýskaland_.

Ein bißchen ähnlich, nicht wahr?


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## MrMagoo

xav said:


> I completely agree. "Deutsch" doesn't come from "Teuton", but both derive from _þiuda_




As far as I know, "Deutsch" and "Teuton" are not related at all.
"Teuton" refers back to the ancestor _Teut_, which usually led to confusion.
In the Etymological Dictionary of the German Language by Kluge, you can find the following:
"Mhd. _tiutsch_ mag (wie in _tâht_ "Docht" und _tûsent_ "1000") _t-_ an das auslautende _t_ angeglichen haben.
Luthers Form ist deudsch, _teutsch_ wird lange durch Berufung auf den angeblichen Stammvater Teut gestützt, bis Gottsched, Adelung und Jacob Grimm die richtige Etymologie durchsetzen.".





> I suppose that if Otfried von Weissenburg used this term "theotisce" instead of "germanice", that was to say "in the language the people uses and understands". Exactly on the same way, when, a bit later, somebody said the priests had to preach in "French", he used the expression "lingua vulgare", from "vulgum" = "people". "Theotisce" is the translation of this expression in German (with a Latin "-e" for ablatif !).



"theotisce" was not the language the people use and understands, it is the "vulgar" language "of the people" in contrast to Latin.
People in the Middle Ages did not speak Old-High-German, nor Middle-High-German, they were speaking their own Germanic dialects.
Versions of Old-High-German were introduced to them and they had to learn them as Karl der Große wanted a unique language for his empire, but he did not succeed. 
A standardized German language was introduced finally in the end of the 19th century, completed by Konrad Duden in 1901.
Still, this standard-version is the language of the people; esp. since ca. 1940, the dialects (which _are_ the languages people speak) have been disappearing and/or moving towards the Standard language, but still, it is _not_ (yet) the language people _speak_.




> Today's German word "deutlich" has the same origin and a very near meaning : "clear" = "which everybody understands".
> 
> I agree with the first part, but I don't think a people can call himself "The other ones" ! For me, "Alla Man" means "All the men". And Ellsass is the country of the Ill, the river which flows through it, from Sundgau to Strasbourg.



Yes, I agree to all of this. 

Cheers
-MrMagoo


----------



## OMOIKANE

cyanista said:


> In der Umgangssprache kann "немец" immer noch eine nicht besonders  schlaue, langsame Person bedeuten.  So was sagen natürlich nur Leute, die ehmm.. nicht sehr gebildet sind (leider gehören dazu ein Paar von meinen Schullehrern, die Kinder ab und zu so beschimft haben: "Ну что за немцы!").



Я думаю, что это не соответствует действительности. В наши дни никто не использует слово "немец" в уничижительной форме. Более того, я поспрашивал своих знакомых "Что значит 'немец'?". Ответ был всё время приблизительно одинаковый: "Как что? Немец - тот, кто живёт в Германии." И они были несколько обескуражены, когда я объяснил значение этого слова. В древние времена "немцами" называли всех чужестранцев, которые не могли говорить по-русски. Немцев же  
называли "немецкие псы", т.к. немецкая речь для русского уха звучит как лай собаки (когда не понимаешь смысл сказанного). Я не хочу никого обидеть или задеть, это всего лишь история. Во время Великой Отечественной Войны слово "немцы" уже употреблялось лишь как обозначение национальности. В уничижительной форме использовались слова "фриц", "фрицы". А с ненавистью - "фашисты". В наши дни некоторые русские продолжают называть немцев фашистами, не думая о  настоящем значении этого слова.


----------



## FloVi

OMOIKANE said:


> Я думаю, что это не соответствует действительности. В наши дни никто не использует слово "немец" в уничижительной форме. Более того, я поспрашивал своих знакомых "Что значит 'немец'?". Ответ был всё время приблизительно одинаковый: "Как что? Немец - тот, кто живёт в Германии." И они были несколько обескуражены, когда я объяснил значение этого слова. В древние времена "немцами" называли всех чужестранцев, которые не могли говорить по-русски. Немцев же
> называли "немецкие псы", т.к. немецкая речь для русского уха звучит как лай собаки (когда не понимаешь смысл сказанного). Я не хочу никого обидеть или задеть, это всего лишь история. Во время Великой Отечественной Войны слово "немцы" уже употреблялось лишь как обозначение национальности. В уничижительной форме использовались слова "фриц", "фрицы". А с ненавистью - "фашисты". В наши дни некоторые русские продолжают называть немцев фашистами, не думая о  настоящем значении этого слова.



Das lag mir auch grad auf der Zunge...


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## cyanista

Omoikane hat widersprochen, weder er noch seine Bekannten kennen "немец" in einer solchen Bedeutung. Also ist es höchstwahrscheinlich ein regionaler Ausdruck, in welchem immer noch etwas von der ursprünglichen, politisch unkorrekten Bedeutung mitschwingt.


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## FloVi

cyanista said:


> Omoikane hat widersprochen...



Ein doppeltes Danke, denn
1. wurmt es mich, wenn ich etwas gar nicht verstehen kann, und
2. finde ich, dass es eine interessante Information ist.


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## übermönch

Ha! Eine herrliche Angelegenheit. 's kommt selten vor, dass man was aus russisch in das deutsche übersetzen kann, also, das will ich nicht verpassen. Ich hoffe, dass Omoikane's mir nicht übel nehmen wird! 



			
				OMOIKANE said:
			
		

> Ich denke, dass dies nicht der Wahrheit entspricht. Heut' zu Tage benutzt niemand das Wort "Njemez" in erniedrigender Forum. Mehr dazu, ich habe bei meinen Bekannten herumgefragt "Was bedeutet 'Njemez'" . Die Antwort war immer ungefähr gleich: "Wie _was_? Ein Njemez ist derjenige, der in Deutschland wohnt." Und sie waren etwas bestürtzt, als ich die bedeutung dieses Wortes erklärte. In alten Zeiten wurden alle Fremdländer, die kein Russisch kannten, als "Njemzy" bezeichnet. Die Deutschen aber  beizeichnete man als "Nemezische Hunde", weil die deutsche Redeart sich dem russischen Ohr wie das Bellen eines Hundes anhörte (wenn man den Sinn des gesagten nicht versteht). Ich will niemanden beleidigen oder kränken, es ist einfach nur Geschichte. Zur Zeit des großen Vaterländischen Krieges, war das Wort "Njemzy" bereits ausschließlich als der Begriff für die Nationalität angewandt. In erniedrigender Form waren die Worte "Fritz", "Fritzy" angewandt, und mit Grimm "Faschisten". Heut zu Tage fahren manche Russe damit fort, Deutsche "Faschisten" zu nennen, ohne sich um die wahre Bedeutung des Wortes Gedanken zu machen.


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## Vast

In my todays quest for the origen of the word Deutsch/Duits/Dietsch/Duutsch\Dutch etc. and although Wikipedia already answerd my question with _Thiuda = Folk (Which is Gothic = Germanic language Group) _i was happy to stumble on to this discussion and great Forum!!

But i like to add regarding "das wort Njemez" that it's just a jocose that over history developed into a'n official noun for Germans. The same is in my mother language Dutch  we also some time ago gave the name Moffen (Muffs) to the Germans (By now an officialy national accepted 4 letter word).. The origen of this lies in the German customs-officers which wore Muffs to warm there hands while guarding the border.

Maybe if this happend even longer ago before the Dutch became the Dutch and the Germans the Germans  "Moffen" could have developed the same way as the word "Njemez".


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## Kajjo

> Ich denke, dass dies nicht der Wahrheit entspricht. Heutzutage benutzt niemand mehr das Wort "Njemez" in erniedrigender Form. Mehr dazu (???), ich habe bei meinen Bekannten herumgefragt "Was bedeutet 'Njemez'?". Die Antwort war immer ungefähr gleich: "Wie _was_? [Was bitte?] Ein Njemez ist jemand, der in Deutschland wohnt." Und sie waren etwas bestürzt, als ich die Bedeutung dieses Wortes erklärte. In alten Zeiten wurden alle Ausländer, die kein Russisch konnten/sprachen, als "Njemzy" bezeichnet. Die Deutschen aber  bezeichnete man als "Nemezische Hunde", weil sich die deutsche Art zu sprechen für das russische Ohr wie das Bellen eines Hundes anhörte (wenn man den Sinn des Gesagten nicht versteht). Ich will niemanden beleidigen oder kränken, es ist einfach nur Geschichte. Zur Zeit des großen Vaterländischen Krieges (,) wurde das Wort "Njemzy" bereits ausschließlich als der Begriff für die Nationalität angewandt. In erniedrigender Form wurden die Worte "Fritz" und "Fritzy" angewandt, und mit Grimm (???) "Faschisten". Auch heutzutage bezeichnen manche Russen Deutsche noch als "Faschisten" , ohne sich über die wahre Bedeutung des Wortes Gedanken zu machen.


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## Henryk

FloVi said:


> Ein doppeltes Danke, denn
> 1. wurmt es mich, wenn ich etwas gar nicht verstehen kann, und


не волнуйся ^^


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## Whodunit

MrMagoo said:


> "Немцы" means "not speaking (Russian")", as Omoikane explained.
> Somebody who doesn't speak your language is a foreigner first of all, and somebody who doesn't speak your language might be regarded to be stupid in a certain way. Of course, this is not what the Russian word means, but keep in mind that these words are thousands of years old, developed when globalisation was not as "popular"  as today...


 
I was rather referring to the Japanese word "馬鹿外人," which means something like "stupid foreigner" (I'd consider "baka" extremely harsh and insulting). But this has nothing to do with "not speaking (Russian)," does it? And since when do the Japanese use such words to describe Germans? 




> My goodness, it was just an apostrophe, Who'  I wouldn't have noticed it, if you hadn't said a word...


 
Not, we should pay attention to capital letters as well ...


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## OMOIKANE

Whodunit said:


> I'd consider "baka" extremely harsh and insulting.



No. "baka" is soft childish word. Something like "дурачок", "дурашка" in Russian.
Rude form is "bakayarou".





Whodunit said:


> Not, we should pay attention to capital letters as well ...



What's wrong with capital letters?


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## gaer

OMOIKANE said:


> No. "baka" is soft childish word. Something like "дурачок", "дурашка" in Russian.
> Rude form is "bakayarou".


link

There is a discussion of "baka" here in the Japanese forum. I started it to avoid topic drift in German.

Gaer


----------



## kgulbran

I was told that the Russian use of Nemetz (mute) for German was due to the Hanseatic league using sign language to conduct business. Anyone able to confirm that?


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## Schwichtenhövel

22caps said:


> .....
> 
> English = German.... Spanish = Alemán.... Italian = Tedesco... German = Deutsche (sp?)... </p>
> Whereas for, let's say, Spanish.... English = Spanish.... Spanish = Español.... Italian = Spagnolo.... French = Espagnole.....
> 
> They are all very similar for other languages, just not German.  Anybody know the origin or reason of this?


 
It's because the germans always wanted to be someone special. Look at me, I'm a german! So the other nations agreed and gave them special names... No. I'm afraid that is not quite right. As far as I remember, it had been already Caesar who wrote a book called 'Germania'. Alemán, almao (portug.???) and allemand might derive from 'alemannisch', and I believe that even today there is a Swiss tribe called the 'Alamannen'. But I'm not sure. The point to be sure is the origin of these: deutsch, teutsch, duits (Nederlande), tysk (swedish???, danish?), tedesco. They all derive from something like - no clue, thiudisk or thiudesk? Might be East Gothic. So there are not too many names para las cabezas cuadradas. Only three. Look at me! Look at me!


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## Whodunit

Schwichtenhövel, are you referring to the Alemannen and their language Alemannisch?


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## Jana337

kgulbran said:


> I was told that the Russian use of Nemetz (mute) for German was due to the Hanseatic league using sign language to conduct business. Anyone able to confirm that?


Hi and welcome!

I would be surprised to hear that the Slavic word Němec (this is the Czech version) appeared only after the Hanseatic league was founded (14th century).

Jana


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## Schwichtenhövel

Whodunit said:


> Schwichtenhövel, are you referring to the Alemannen and their language Alemannisch?


 
Actually, I don't thoroughly know what about I had been talking. I just remembered the word in question in a very dark region of my brain that was not in use for years. I believe there is an 'Alamannische Fasnacht' which should be the carnival in some Swiss area...

It is not important.


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## konungursvia

My two cents (after reading many excellent replies): we must not forget that there were numerous small German "nations" comparable to North America's indigenous nations or tribes, each of which at times warred and traded with neighbours in various parts of Europe. The concept of a German nation is only a couple hundred years old, as many contributors pointed out above. Each language group thus arrived at a separate consensus on what to call "its" Germanic neighbour, whence the variations, and errors, on what they have been called. The Flemish and Netherlanders have also been called Dutch, for instance, and were among those Teutonic tribes perceived as a collectivity by others over the last couple thousand years. An interesting story, isn't it? Those darned Tysklanders!


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## Schwichtenhövel

"Those darned Tysklanders!"


Yes, one has to bear one's cross, I experience that every day when staring in the mirror. I would pay a million for having been born as a Monegasque. They have the most cash in Europe...


----------



## alisonp

Getting back to the original question, what makes you think that German is so "deviant"?  What about Basque, for instance?  The other languages you quoted were Romance languages or ones strongly influenced by them.  If you started quoting some of the other Teutonic-influenced languages such as Dutch ("duits"), Swedish ("tysk") etc. you'd see that German isn't so far out after all.  Or have I misunderstood the original query?


----------



## Outsider

You may have. The original query was about why there are such different words for "German" in different languages.


----------



## beclija

Someone has mentioned that the English word "Dutch" is a cognate of "Deutsch". An interesting parallel that I think has not been mentioned here is that the Arabic word [nîmsâ] for "Austria" is a cognate to Slavic "Nijemac" (Croatian, this one). 

The reason is very similar in both cases, in my opinion: Up until rather recently, there was no coherent notion to cover all and only what is now Germany - in any language (someone mentioned the 1870s already). So when the need arose for a term for Germany as opposed to Austria, Arabic applied the earlier, more generic term to Austria and borrowed a new word for Germany ([almânijâ]) - remember that at the time there was still the Ottoman and Habsburg empires, so for a Syrian, Palestinian or Iraqi, Austria would have been a neighbouring country with whom you would potentially involve in trading or go to war any time, while Germany was a largely irrelevant state half a continent away. 
A slightly different hypothesis would be that Morocco adopted the Spanish word to mean all "Germans", while in the Ottoman Empire, the South Slavic term was used, and when the need to differentiate arose, they found it convenient to have two terms already and just standardized their terminology (I think the second variation is more in line with the fact that the language is called [almânijja] rather than [nimsawijja]). If you have read Karl May, you may remember that he still used "Nimsa" to refer to all "Germans", notably himself who is from Saxony.

The parallel with "Dutch" is that a few centuries earlier, there was no concieved reason to distinguish between Dutch and Germans either, and when it did arise, the English had way more contact with the Dutch than the Germans further to the east (presumably also called "Dutch" before) and for convenience sticked to the old term referring to them while introducing a new one for "German".

So, in my opinion, the basic reason for the international terminological chaos is that for most of history, there was no reason to refer to all and only "Germany" or "Germans", so languages would (in many cases) just take the name of the nearest German tribe and generalize it when it became meaningful to do so.


----------



## alisonp

In that case, the answer is surely that it depends on which "branch" of languages they come from: Romance, Germanic, etc., which is what I was trying to say.  I'm sure that if you took a less Indo-European-centric view you'd find that e.g. oriental languages' words for German are probably no more different from Western European languages than are their words for, say, French or Spanish.  (Wait for someone to contradict me )


----------



## beclija

Here we go... I don't think any East Asian (I always get it mixed - does Oriental mean East Asian or Middle Eastern in Britain? Same argument anyway, except for Greece and possibly some other places in the Eastern Mediterranean) language will have a very original name for any European country. They probably just adopted the Portuguese names when the Portuguese opened trade in the 16th century, or alternatively, if the Portuguese didn't think the country in question important enough to talk about it, they use the name its nationals used to introduce themselves. 

Granted, there might have been a lot of phonetic adjustment, often making the word unrecognizable. Say, the language in question doesn't have "f" and "r" and disallows consonant clusters: "France" will come out as something like "Palanasi", maybe shortened to Pala-"land". But these are rather predictable changes, on a par with Tyskland - Duitsland - Deutschland. 
The "outragious" thing about Germany (more or less the same for Greece) is that, besides these, there are totally _unrelated _names like "Saksa", "Vācija", "Allemagne", "Njemačka", and "Germany". I think the chance that you find an Oriental language that hase an _unrelated _name for any European country is about as high as finding a European language where China is called "Prulong". 

I wouldn't be surprised to learn, though, that China has a dozen unrelated names in, say, Tibetan, Korean, Burmese, Vietnamese, Mongolian etc... (Btw, I think our European names derive from Arabic (Sîn), which again picked it up in India, and it is indeed unrelated to the Chinese.)


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## alisonp

You could be right: probably "oriental" was a bad choice for a group of languages, but it was the only one that came to mind.  In the UK, it would refer to Japanese/Chinese/Korean etc. - the very Far Eastern languages.  Wonder how Germany is referred to in the East European languages ...


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## konungursvia

Germany is referred to in the East as "德国" or "De guo", an ingenious way of using a polite word "De," or "virtue" that sounds something like Deutsch. (guo means country in Chinese, and nearly all Far Eastern languages use the Chinese construction even though not directly related to Chinese, such as the Koreans and Japanese.)


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## konungursvia

Addendum: the Chinese have always been very clever at reinventing suitable Western names in their totally unrelated language. Consider the Biblical David, translated as 大卫, or "Da wei", i.e. "Great Defense". I believe "Da wei" is quite close to the original Hebrew pronunciation.


----------



## beclija

> Wonder how Germany is referred to in the East European languages ...


 It's been mentioned in some detail in the thread, or maybe you go to Wikipedia and check the links to the other language editions (Germany should have an article in most editions).
Vokietija (Lithuanian) Vācija (Latvian), Nem-c- in various varieties in Slavic languages (Croation Njemačka, Polish Niemcy, etc.), Saksa in Finnish and Estonian, and Germania in Romanian.


----------



## Whodunit

konungursvia said:


> Germany is referred to in the East as "德国" or "De guo", an ingenious way of using a polite word "De," or "virtue" that sounds something like Deutsch. (guo means country in Chinese, and nearly all Far Eastern languages use the Chinese construction even though not directly related to Chinese, such as the Koreans and Japanese.)


 
In Japanese, it is pronounced like "deishi go" (go meaning language): ドイツ語. It reflects the pronunciation of "deutsch" or "duits."


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## Outsider

This seems to be a recurring question.


----------



## alisonp

beclija said:


> It's been mentioned in some detail in the thread,


Oops, sorry .  It was rather a long thread, and I did just skim-read it.


----------



## Outsider

There's a related thread in the Arabic forum: Austria.


----------



## Kaschiller

Hi, everybody
Right on my alley of thought.
I have been trying to find out the etymology of the word DACIA ( ancient name for Romania ), a sound alike with DeutchLand and Dutch.( DACH ), but they are a litle different though.
DACIA , originally DAGAE (in some ancient maps ) means Land . Trajan, the roman emperor called this land ( today's Romania ) , DACIA FELIX ( elix -icis [fruitful , fertile]. Transf., [of good omen, favorable, bringing good luck; fortunate, lucky, successful]; Felix, [the Lucky One, surname of Sulla]. Adv. feliciter, [fruitfully; auspiciously, favorably; luckily, successfully]
Now, in romanian DUSH = SHOWER  and DUH = SPIRIT. So, DutchLand it could be 'Land of many rivers' or' Land of lots of Rain' . 

But Ud as in ( ud(rom)=wet(eng) ) , usually is present in words that have to do with reproduction. Uterus, Udder, so it is related to birth . Nations were taking names as ' WE THE PEOPLE ' - TEUDA, TEUTA (celtic), TUZI ( rom), like in TODO(span) , TOT(rom) meaning ALL.

Here are some proto-germanic words for PEOPLE:

Proto-Germanic: *?iud?; *?iudana-s
Meaning: people
IE etymology: 
Gothic: ?iuda f. (?) `people, nation; heathen, gentiles'; ?iudan-s m. (a) `king'
Old Norse: ?j?? f. `Volk'; ?j??an-n m. `Fürst, König' (poet.)
Norwegian: tjod
Swedish: gotl. tjaud
Old English: ??od, -e f. `nation, people; district occupied by a people, country; language'; { ??oden `king, lord, God' }
Old Frisian: thiade
Old Saxon: thiod, thioda; thiudan st. m. `ruler, lord ofvthe people'
Middle Dutch: diet; holl. duutsc, vlam. dietsc
Dutch: duits
Old High German: thiota, thiot `Volk' (8.Jh.); thiutisc (um 1000)
Middle High German: diet st. f., n., m. 'volk, leute', st. m. 'mensch, kerl'; diutisch, diutsch, tiutsch, tiusch, mitteld. d?desch, d?tsch, d?sch 'deutsch'
German: Deutsch
Comments: lat.-germ. Teutoni

So, DeutchLand = Land of the People!

GERMANY
In romanian we have GER = FROST, ICICLE, COLD WEATHER ( gello)
One possibility will be German - People from the cold land
Gheara - sharp, Claw
Ger - Spear so Germany = People with spears
In Romanian Jertfa=Sacrifice ...Ancient Dacian used to send messengers to their God , Zamolxes by throwing the chosen one on top of a bed of spears.
In this case Ger = Jer = Spear.
Greek GERAKI = HAWK , simbol on the German Flag!
Germans - Hawk People!?

NEAMTS ( romanian )
Related words:
Neam = Relatives , which is synonim with the latin Germanus 
(germanitas -atis f. [the relationship between brothers or sisters; brotherhood , sisterhood].
germanus -a -um [having the same parents]; m. or f. as subst. [own brother , own sister]. Transf., [brotherly, sisterly; genuine, real, true]. Adv., germane, [faithfully, honestly].

Nimici (neemeechee) = To destroy

Nametsi (rom) - Hills of snow, deep snow

Here is what weekipedia has:
From Latin "Germania", of the 3rd century BC, of unknown origin. The Oxford English Dictionary records theories about the Celtic roots gair ("neighbour") (from Zeuß), and gairm ("battle-cry") (from Wachter and from Grimm). Partridge suggested *gar ("to shout"), and describes the gar ("spear") theory as "obsolete". Italian, Romanian, and other languages use the latinate Germania as the name for Germany.

The rest here

You might want to see this also:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_for_Germany


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## yuggoth

Tede said:


> What a coincidence, we were talking about this yesterday in German class!  Ralf is pretty close to the mark, it started 2000 years ago with the Romans and a guy named Cornelius Tacitus in AD 98, a Roman historian.  The people living in the area known as Germany were dispersed and "barbaric" (to the Romans), so he called him, in Latin, Germanen.  When the Romans went north, they brought language, culture, and technology with them.  Some of the tribes allowed themselves to become latinized, these were the French (for the most part).
> 
> There are a few reasons other lands call Germans by different names, but mostly it's due to the fact that the German people were semi-nomadic and had no major cities or unification beyond language.  That is to say, they were not a well defined nation.  For instance, most European nations have one _major_ city, like Paris, or Rome, that is clearly the center.  But in Germany, you don't really have that.  Berlin is trying to become that center, but 1000 years ago there wasn't a cultural or economic center.
> 
> Anyway, *the English called the Dutch people the Dutch (and the Germans call themselves "deutsch"), but then they heard from the Romans of these other people past the Dutch, these Germans, so they called the country Germany *(Germania in Italian).  Many other languages call the Germans something related to "foreigner" or "stranger".
> 
> As far as the origin of the word Deutch and Deutchland, the Teutons and Charlemagne (Karl der Grosse in German, or "Karl the Big Guy") had a lot to do with it.  The Teutons threated the Roman Empire 113-101 BC, they called themselves "teutonisch", from which "deutch" is a derivative.  Karl der Grosse started using this word and spreading it's popularity.
> 
> Well there's a nutshell discription, there's a lot more to it than that but if you were just curious, hopefully this satiates you.


At that time,most of the peoples who formed what today is called "England" were in what today is known as Denmark (Anglo) and part of Germany (Saxon).The people who lived in (Great) Britain were...the celtic Britons.


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## yuggoth

Whodunit said:


> I'm also really impressed. I didn't know all these facts yet, but I can add that there might have been some certain tribes that founded their nations in other contries. Because it isn't different from nation to nation as the word "Deutsch" is called, since in Spanish it's Alemán, in Arabic 'almaanii ( ألمانى ), in French allemand (almost the same stem) and with German (English): the proper Latin word is Germanus/Germanicus that means something like brotherly/true/..., in Hebrew it's germanith ( גרמוית ). And I think the Chinese word is also something like this with the same stem.
> 
> But I cannot find a proper word in another language for tedesco.
> 
> Nevertheless, Tede did a good job and I don't know what to add any more.


In Chinese, the name is "_Dé-guó_",which comes from "_De-sha-lan_" (adaptation of _Deutschland_) and _guó _(country).
I know the writing in chinese caracters,but I don't know how to type them.
"*Tedesco*" is a form of "_teuton_",but modified by the time and the diference of language.It existed in old Spanish too the form "_tudesco_"​


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## yuggoth

Jana337 said:


> Like everyone else I appreciate this thread very much. However, the above quote puzzles me quite a bit. I have never seen such an explanation for the expressions the Slavic people use for the Germans. Here's what I incidentally posted in another thread a couple of days ago:
> 
> 
> 
> I checked into this again. I find it very unlikely that we borrowed from Italians in those distant times. The connection between "němý" (mute) and "Německo" (Germany), "němčina" (German, the language), "Němec" (German, the person), "německá" (German, the adjective), on the other hand, is very clear.
> 
> This is what I was told at school. This explanation is also widespread in the Czech internet. I haven't discovered a single source supporting what Apus wrote.
> 
> Jana


I had been looking for this answer for years!!Thank you the maximum.
I'm not from the slavic world,but I find logical that explanation.


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## yuggoth

*


Apus said:



Alamann was the name of a German tribe established on the sides of the Rhine and in Switzerland. The name has nothing to do with Arabic. Not all names beginning with al- are Arabic. The Arabic word is a borrowing from either Spanish or French. The root of Alamann is al- from which are also Greek allos "other", English else, alien, Old High German Elisâzzo Elsaz (French Alsace): the land on the other side of the Rhine.
		
Click to expand...

*

I have heard that it comes from _alles-mensch_, "all the men",since that tribe was actually a confederation.Could it be true or is it a fantastic etimology?


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## Whodunit

yuggoth said:


> In Chinese, the name is "_Dé-guó_",which comes from "_De-sha-lan_" (adaptation of _Deutschland_) and _guó _(country).
> 
> I know the writing in chinese caracters,but I don't know how to type them.​


​ 
I guess you mean 德国 (de2 guo2). In Japanese, they use an adapted form of the Dutch "Duitsland:"

ドイツ語 - doitsu go = German language


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## yuggoth

Whodunit said:


> Schwichtenhövel, are you referring to the Alemannen and their language Alemannisch?


Yes,I think he does.It's the same people who are called "al*a*manes" in Spanish and their land "Al*a*mania" (sic).


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## yuggoth

Whodunit said:


> [/left]
> 
> I guess you mean 德国 (de2 guo2). In Japanese, they use an adapted form of the Dutch "Duitsland:"
> 
> ドイツ語 - doitsu go = German language


Yes,that's true,but names of countries that today have in Chinese an ending in "guo" (country) had formerly allonger form, so _Fa-guo_ (France) was _Fa-lan-xí_, _Ying-guó_ (England) was _Ying-ge-lán_,and so on...


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## Forero

And the term Wealh was applied by Germanic people to Romance speakers.  It might have meant something like "foreigners".

Related words are Vlachoi (6th cent. Byzantine), Wallachians, die Welschen, die welsche Schweiz, olasz, and Welsh.


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## Arrius

I knew that the German word _deutsch_ came from a Gothic word meaning _people _(cf. Scandinavian _tysk_ and Italian _tedesco),_ just as _Bantu_ is the the plural of _Muntu_ (also man), and that the rest of the names mostly derive from the names of individual Germanic ribes, but what about the Russian *nyemyetski,* which I vaguely remember is derived from some quite unpleasant Russian word meaning something like enemy. I fear I have no means, myself, of checking this.


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## Jana337

In all (?) Slavic languages, the word for Germany is derived from "mute", as I said in post 14. Russian was specifically mentioned in post 33.


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## avok

yuggoth said:


> I have heard that it comes from _alles-mensch_, "all the men",since that tribe was actually a confederation.Could it be true or is it a fantastic etimology?


 
That's what I have known too ...  weird that no one has mentioned it


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## sdgraham

In re: Dutch-Deutsch
When people hear terms in a language not their own, they often use similar-sounding words from their own language.
On my mother's side of the family, my ancestors came from what is now Germany/Deutschland and settled in the state of Pennsylvania. 
The story that I got in German class was that the American corruption of Deutsch to Dutch comes from that quirk to apply familiar-sounding terms rather than the non-native original and thus my ancestors were called the _Pennsylvania Dutch_ even though they were Germanic.
Thus, in earlier times in the U.S., particularly during the rather heavy immigration of German/Deutsch -speaking peoples, folks with Germanic names often gained the nickname (sobriquet) of "Dutch."
"Dutch" Schultz, an American Gangster of the past century, is an example.


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## Outsider

sdgraham said:


> The story that I got in German class was that the American corruption of Deutsch to Dutch comes from that quirk to apply familiar-sounding terms rather than the non-native original and thus my ancestors were called the _Pennsylvania Dutch_ even though they were Germanic.


That story is not accurate. You should read the first pages of this thread and the links in it. "Dutch" is not a misreading of "Deutsch"; it's simply a word whose meaning has changed over time and space.


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## ed6514

I was looking for references to the Italian word "tedesco."

I am appreciative of Mr. Magoo's explanation.  It makes sense to me that "tedesco" would come from "theotisce" rather than directly from "Deutsch."  Is my thinking correct?

Thanks for this site.  I am glad that I found it!


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## Erutuon

In case anyone's interested, the Old English for German _Deutsch_ (and Dutch _Duits_, Icelandic _þýska_, etc.) is _þéodisc_, the Modern English equivalent of which might be _*Thedish_ (judging from the Oxford English Dictionary's _thede_), or perhaps *_Theech_ (judging from High German's _diutisc_ -> _Deutsch_).


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## zpoludnia swiata

Interesting the idea that alemán comes from Arabic.  Much more probable is that it comes from the Germanic tribe the Allemani (Allemanen=all the men, all the people).  Those were the ¨Germans¨ with whom people farther to west had contact with.


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## Outsider

According to what was said earlier in this thread, _Allamann_ did not mean "all the men", but rather "the men from the other side". "The outsiders", as it were.


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## Frank06

Hi,


Outsider said:


> According to what was said earlier in this thread, _Allamann_ did not mean "all the men", but rather "the men from the other side". "The outsiders", as it were.


I must have missed that post #12 you are referring to, but Apu*s* could at least have mentioned that (s)he found this explanation in footnote number 6 of the Wiki-article on the Alamanni, a footnote triggered by the explanation in the main article that "the etymology [alamanni - all men] has remained the standard derivation".

The footnote doesn't mention that some people think that "al-" refers to the Alle River. This explanation I found in my favourite French dictionary, which by the way, definitely prefers "all-men".

On the other hand, many of the names of Germanic tribes were _originally_ given by people who did not belong to that group. (Compare with the simple example "Chinese"). So, all in all, "the Others" is not that impossible.

It's only later that Romanised Germanic tribal leaders writers, being _very well_ aware of the Latin and even Greek literary traditions, used those names to refer to their band, whether or not their group had connections with the "original" tribe. 
It may be an exaggeration, but in those days 'tribal' names seemed to have been wandering around Eurasia even more than the so-called 'tribes' themselves...
And a name like Alamanni (written in half a dozen of ways) was and still is easy to re-interpreted.

Groetjes,

Frank


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## Erutuon

As far as it goes, "all men" (or the equivalent in Proto-Germanic, Alamanniz) is the etymology the Oxford English Dictionary gives.


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## Blacklack

Apus said:


> ..._Nem_ by the Hungarians, _Neamts_ by the Romans, _Niemcy_ by the Poles, _Nemdzios_ by the Modern Greeks,_Nemets_ by the Russians, these words are related to Italian _nimico_ "ennemy" (The eastern European peoples having suffered many invasions by the Germanic tribes have come to call them "the ennemy").


Thank you for so much examples. They seem to prove that Protoslavic root emerged quite early, even before Slavic population reached southern Balkans in 6-7 centuries A.D.
Your Roman etymology is something quite new to me as well as many people here. Sounds interesting anyway.



Jana337 said:


> Like everyone else I appreciate this thread very much. However, the above quote puzzles me quite a bit... I checked into this again. I find it very unlikely that we borrowed from Italians in those distant times.


Well, the times being 5th century A.D. or a bit earlier, that would've been nothing strange. Roman-speaking people lived already in modern Romania and were likely to have some contacts with Slavs. Besides that Roman-speaking people could be living in modern-day western Hungary (Roman province of Pannonia), i.e. also in the vicinity of ancient Slavs.



Jana337 said:


> The connection between "němý" (mute) and "Německo" (Germany), "němčina" (German, the language), "Němec" (German, the person), "německá" (German, the adjective), on the other hand, is very clear.
> This is what I was told at school. This explanation is also widespread in the Czech internet. I haven't discovered a single source supporting what Apus wrote.


That explanation is widespread in all the Russian-speaking world too, I believe. It's very simple and "obvious". Still that doesn't prove it right automatically. There's another explanation — Slavic root having derived from a German tribe name "Nemeti" (see "Nemetes" in Wiki).


----------



## ho chi feen

I'm just wondering where this term, seemingly unique amongst the Romance languages, has its origin.


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## Spectre scolaire

The Italian word _tedesco_ goes back to Late Latin _teutiscu(m)_, ultimately from Gothic thiuda, “people”. Obviously, the German form _deutsch_ also comes via Latin, and – together with _tedesco_ – it means “popular; vernacular [language]”.

As to the historical background, see Charlemagne, f.ex. in Wikipedia.
 ​


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## cyaxares_died

What is the origin of the Latvian and Lithuanian names for Germany?

-Vācija (Latvian), Vokietija (Lithuanian).


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## CapnPrep

Have a look here for one (unsourced) hypothesis: Wikipedia.


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## 89ten

Spectre scolaire said:


> The Italian word _tedesco_ goes back to Late Latin _teutiscu(m)_, ultimately from Gothic thiuda, “people”. Obviously, the German form _deutsch_ also comes via Latin, and – together with _tedesco_ – it means “popular; vernacular [language]”.
> 
> As to the historical background, see Charlemagne, f.ex. in Wikipedia.
> ​


 How can deutsch come from Latin if the cognate is present in gothic?
The same root was used to describe not only Goths, Guttiuddai, also early English, Angel-teod and Swedes, Sui-tjod. It means people; the same root was used to describe Celtic tribes. It goes back to proto Germanic and proto Indo-European. The Latin Tedesco doesn’t have to come from gothic since it is a proto Indo-European cognate.


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## dinji

_Tedesco_ is certainly a loanword from Germanic, because there is no trace of the PIE semivowel /_*w*_/.

The German word _deutsch_ is however a true cognate to ia. Gothic and Swedish.


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## 89ten

Sure, Tedesco must be a Germanic cognate in Italian; after all it refers to Germany, although I don’t understand the role of semivowel “w” here. What is PIE root for this cognate?


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## Outsider

89ten said:


> How can deutsch come from Latin if the cognate is present in gothic?


I think you misunderstood Spectre Solaire's post.


----------



## Hulalessar

The explanation that the Slavic word for "German" comes from a Slavic word meaning "mute" is unconvincing. First, it cannot surely be the case that the Slavs thought the German tribes could not speak at all. Secondly, if you are going to call a people after the way they speak then a word meaning "mute" hardly seems applicable. One would expect a word meaning something like "babbler" or "stutterer" to be used.


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## trance0

In Slovene we use "Nemec" for a person of German nationality. The word "nemec" means literally "a mute person" in Modern Slovene. (nemec -> (nem=mute) +ec = nemec).


----------



## dinji

89ten said:


> Sure, Tedesco must be a Germanic cognate in Italian; after all it refers to Germany, although I don’t understand the role of semivowel “w” here. What is PIE root for this cognate?


PIE *teu-(ta where /u/ stands for a semivowel "w".
There are true cognates in Celtic, Baltic, Hettitic and even in Oscan _touto_ 'citizen'. The Italian word is however not a cognate but a borrowing. It does not display any back or rounded vowel here.


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## Hulalessar

trance0 said:


> In Slovene we use "Nemec" for a person of German nationality. The word "nemec" means literally "a mute person" in Modern Slovene. (nemec -> (nem=mute) +ec = nemec).


 
It does not follow that the two words have the same etymology.


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## sokol

Hulalessar said:


> The explanation that the Slavic word for "German" comes from a Slavic word meaning "mute" is unconvincing. First, it cannot surely be the case that the Slavs thought the German tribes could not speak at all. Secondly, if you are going to call a people after the way they speak then a word meaning "mute" hardly seems applicable. One would expect a word meaning something like "babbler" or "stutterer" to be used.


"Barbar(ian)" means something like "babbler", "stutterer" - that's correct.

However, in Slavic languages it is true that the word just means "mute" - German = Nemec (I also think, like Jana, that it is the same in all Slavic languages). This etymology is well-established and widely accepted by the scientific community - it is not a folk-etymology based on coincidental homonymy but an established historic etymology.

And how to explain that they call Germans "mute"? - Well, surely Slavs knew that that German babbling was a language, but to them it wasn't intelligible and thus falls basically in the same category as "barbarian - babbler". So I don't see a real problem here, to be honest.


----------



## 89ten

Then how comes the Italian word Nemiti and the Czech word Nemetz are similar
  in morphology. Wouldn’t it be reasonable to assume that the cognate was spread along eastern and southern Germanic borders? As one of posters in this thread mentioned,
  the Italian “Nemiti” means enemy in Italian, which, I presume, was borrowed into English, and here it means “enemy.” I wonder if someone can successfully separate the Italian root from the Czech one. Also, is the Czech or the west Slavic “Nemetz” cognate known in Russian, not necessary to describe Germany?


----------



## Hulalessar

sokol said:


> "Barbar(ian)" means something like "babbler", "stutterer" - that's correct.
> 
> However, in Slavic languages it is true that the word just means "mute" - German = Nemec (I also think, like Jana, that it is the same in all Slavic languages). This etymology is well-established and widely accepted by the scientific community - it is not a folk-etymology based on coincidental homonymy but an established historic etymology.
> 
> And how to explain that they call Germans "mute"? - Well, surely Slavs knew that that German babbling was a language, but to them it wasn't intelligible and thus falls basically in the same category as "barbarian - babbler". So I don't see a real problem here, to be honest.


 
I can only think that there must have been some semantic shift in the Slavic word that now means "mute". Could it at one one have meant or included the meaning "incapable of _coherent_ speech" or "given to using few words" and not just simply "incapable of speech"? Were any German tribes noted for their taciturnity so that they might have been described as "the silent ones"?

My Russian teacher said that "nyemyetskiy" came from "nye moy" = "not mine". I am not sure that that is any more plausible.

Since the derivation of "Polski", a word used by Slavs to describe Slavs, is uncertain, it seems unwise to be too dogmatic about the derivation of a word used by Slavs to describe non-Slavs.


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## Kanes

Hulalessar said:


> Since the derivation of "Polski", a word used by Slavs to describe Slavs, is uncertain, it seems unwise to be too dogmatic about the derivation of a word used by Slavs to describe non-Slavs.


 
Polski on Bulgarian literaly means _from a field/flatland. _From_ pole_ - field. Having in mind Polish geography seems logical too.


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## trance0

Since Slavic languages are more conservative than Romance and Germanic ones, I don't believe a significant semantic shift of "nemec" is very plausible. Especially because the word has basically retained the same meaning in all existing Slavic languages.


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## Hulalessar

Kanes said:


> Polski on Bulgarian literaly means _from a field/flatland. _From_ pole_ - field. Having in mind Polish geography seems logical too.


 
I have heard other explanations, though I cannot remember exactly what they were.


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## Christo Tamarin

> Why is German so deviant?


We should not wonder. Also, we may wonder why "computer" has various notations in different languages but we should not.

There are other examples of different names for the same nation/country:

Greece, Albania, Hungaria, Czech rep., Russia, China, Egypt, Italy, et many others perhaps.



Hulalessar said:


> My Russian teacher said that "nyemyetskiy" came from "nye moy" = "not mine". I am not sure that that is any more plausible.


This etymology seems unprobable to me. 

The Slavonic word *nēmъ *means just _mute, _not stupid. 

Both volks, Germans and Slavs, have lived in neighbourhood long time in the basin of the middle Danube. In that situation, both ethnonyms, *slovēne *(Slavs) and *nēmьцi *(Germans), were developed at the same time and, since then, have always stayed in mutual opposition. The former means "people capable to speak" and the latter - "people incapable to speak".

Please note that, usually, people do not feel the need of an own ethnonym. In many circumstances in the past, most people did not know any ethnonym of their own. Even now, for instance, Bosniac Muslims have not any ethnonym of their own.


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## Hulalessar

Christo Tamarin said:


> Both volks, Germans and Slavs, have lived in neighbourhood long time in the basin of the middle Danube. In that situation, both ethnonyms, *slovēne *(Slavs) and *nēmьцi *(Germans), were developed at the same time and, since then, have always stayed in mutual opposition. The former means "people capable to speak" and the latter - "people incapable to speak".


 
That begins to make some sense.


----------



## Goerzer

89ten said:


> Then how comes the Italian word Nemiti and the Czech word Nemetz are similar
> in morphology. Wouldn’t it be reasonable to assume that the cognate was spread along eastern and southern Germanic borders? As one of posters in this thread mentioned,
> the Italian “Nemiti” means enemy in Italian, which, I presume, was borrowed into English, and here it means “enemy.” I wonder if someone can successfully separate the Italian root from the Czech one. Also, is the Czech or the west Slavic “Nemetz” cognate known in Russian, not necessary to describe Germany?



"Nemiti"  is not an Italian word. Probably you meant "nemici" (plural of "nemico") which derives from Latin "_inimicus_" and means "enemies" of course.


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## trance0

Yes, I forgot to mention that  *nēmьцi *(Germans) is basically just an antonym of *slovēne *(Slavs). It is of course perfectly logical, in fact one of the most logical and primal way of naming the nations based on understanding of their languages.


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## sokol

Hulalessar said:


> My Russian teacher said that "nyemyetskiy" came from "nye moy" = "not mine". I am not sure that that is any more plausible.


Like Christo Tamarin I wouldn't consider this etymology useful; I'd say that this classifies as folk etymology.

Christo already explained it very well; to be honest I never seriously doubted the traditional etymology (= "mute") because it always sounded logical to me.

But here a source - Vasmer's Etymological Dictionary (just a few lines to stay within the 4-lines-rule):
*"ORIGIN:*  Праслав. *němьcь "чужестранец" образовано от němъ (см. _немо́й_). *Ср.* диал. _говори́ть_ _не́мо_, т. е. *"невнятно говорить* (о ребенке)", вятск. (Васн.), _не́мчик_ "малыш, ребенок, который еще не говорит", смол. (Добровольский), _немко́_ "немой", арханг. (Подв.), _немты́рь_, _немтура́_ "косноязычный, заика", вятск. (Васн.), др.-русск.: _Югра_ _же_ _людие_ _есть_ _языкъ_ _нѣмъ_, т. е. "чужой, иноязычный (немой) народ" (Лаврентьевск. летоп. под 1096 г.)"

It's basically what we said above - Nemec = mute, foreigner originally, but also silly/dumb people; in Middle Russian (that's what Cp. seems to stand for) it was also used to denote speaking not very clearly (like kids babbling), and so on: I think that fits perfectly really with everything written above.


----------



## 89ten

Could the Slavic etymology have the same root with the Italian word “nemici?”
  I don’t see a problem with calling foreigners mute or anything semantically close to it.
  If the root meant once people incapable of speaking your own language, then those people were foreigners who also might have become your enemies. So, we have one cognate “nem,” which in Slavic means mute and also a German and in Italian enemy.
  This may be a coincidence of course.


----------



## Hulalessar

89ten said:


> Could the Slavic etymology have the same root with the Italian word “nemici?”


 
I think that must come from the Latin _inimicus_ = _in+amicus_ = "not friend".


----------



## Hulalessar

sokol said:


> It's basically what we said above - Nemec = mute, foreigner originally, but also silly/dumb people; in Middle Russian (that's what Cp. seems to stand for) it was also used to denote speaking not very clearly (like kids babbling), and so on: I think that fits perfectly really with everything written above.


 
That seems to confirm my suspicion that the word did have a wider meaning that simply "incapable of speech".


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## sokol

Hulalessar said:


> I think that must come from the Latin _inimicus_ = _in+amicus_ = "not friend".


Yes, surely this has to be the correct etymology (unfortunately no entry in etimo.it so I can't check) - there's surely no relation to the Slavic word for Germans.

Of course, Nemec also was a name for the foreigners and (thus, logically) potential enemies - but the similarity to Italian has to be pure coincidence.


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## tkan

Interestingly the word Nemec seems to relate to Germans in particular. cf Polish     Włoch (italy) and Bulgarian влашко (vlashko) (Rumanian) cognate with the English word Welsh?


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## sokol

tkan said:


> Interestingly the word Nemec seems to relate to Germans in particular. cf Polish     Włoch (italy) and Bulgarian влашко (vlashko) (Rumanian) cognate with the English word Welsh?


Concerning "Wlach" please see this thread.


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## berndf

Spectre scolaire said:


> The Italian word _tedesco_ goes back to Late Latin _teutiscu(m)_, ultimately from Gothic thiuda, “people”. Obviously, the German form _deutsch_ also comes via Latin, and – together with _tedesco_ – it means “popular; vernacular [language]”.


It is not so "obvious" to me. The words _diota_ (Old High German), _þiod/þeod_ (Anglo-Saxon/Old English) and _þioð_ (Old Norse) meaning _people_ were still in *current* use in all Germanic languages during the entire first Millennium (cf. e.g. _þeodcyninga=of people kings_ in the first sentence of Beowulf). The words _Deutsch/Duits/Dutch_ may well have developed directly from its Germanic root without Latin help.


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## dinji

I agree with Berndf but would put the point stronger:

The words _Duits/Dutch_, if indeed borrowed from Late Latin _teutiscu(m),_ would most likely begin with Germanic /t/. From the point of view of etymological method it is also arbitrary and uneconomical to assume a borrowing when the Germanic words are perfect genetic cognates among themselves.


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## DigitalepurpureA

22caps said:


> Hey, I don't speak German at all, but I was wondering if someone could explain to me why German, of all other languages, changes the most between languages.
> 
> For instance...  English = German.... Spanish = Alemán.... Italian = Tedesco... German = Deutsche (sp?)...
> 
> Whereas for, let's say, Spanish.... English = Spanish.... Spanish = Español.... Italian = Spagnolo.... French = Espagnole.....
> 
> They are all very similar for other languages, just not German.  Anybody know the origin or reason of this?



You can easily understand the meaning of this deviation helping yourself with the history of Europe. The English word Germany or the Italian one Germania go back to the Latin subdivision of Europe. Latins used to call Germany as Germania that completely survived in the Italian Germania and  in the English Germany. The fact that Germany is translated as *Alemania* in Spanish and as *Allemagne* in French is maybe due to others historical factors. The fact that in Italian the name of the Germany language is *Tedesco* (that has no similarities with Germania) is due to the fact that we inherited the name of the Nation from the Latins, and the name we give to the Germany language (Tedesco, that's really similar to Deutsch) is due mostly to the fact that Latins called the Language spoken in Germany at their time as *Theodisce*, that means people's language (notice the similarity with Deutsch, that Germans inherited from this latin word).


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## dinji

DigitalepurpureA said:


> .....the fact that Latins called the Language spoken in Germany at their time as *Theodisce*, that means people's language (notice the similarity with Deutsch, that Germans inherited from this latin word).


Why on earth would _Deutsch_ be a loan from Late Latin when it is a lautgesätzlich a perfect genetic cognate to the other Germanic words with the same meaning?

For reference see my postings above as well as Seebold/Klüge: Etymologisches Wörterbuch der deutschen Sprache.

PS. The Late Latin word is a borrowing from an older Germanic language anyway.


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## DigitalepurpureA

Yes, the Latin word is a form deriving from an an older German, that's true, but the fact that tha Latins classified every region with its language led the to form of the word to survive...


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## berndf

DigitalepurpureA said:


> Yes, the Latin word is a form deriving from an an older German, that's true, but the fact that tha Latins classified every region with its language led the to form of the word to survive...


 
That is a bold claim. The are only *some* modern country names which are derived from Roman names of the province of region:
France: No
Deutschland: I say no, you say yes
England: No
Britain: Yes
Wales: No
Italia: Yes
Österreich: No
Schweiz: No
Magyarország: No
España: Yes
România: No (Roman name was Dacia)
Begië/Belgique/Belgien: Yes
Holland: No
Nederland: No


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## DigitalepurpureA

berndf said:


> That is a bold claim. The are only *some* modern country names which are derived from Roman names of the province of region:
> France: No
> Deutschland: I say no, you say yes
> England: No
> Britain: Yes
> Wales: No
> Italia: Yes
> Österreich: No
> Schweiz: No
> Magyarország: No
> España: Yes
> România: No (Roman name was Dacia)
> Begië/Belgique/Belgien: Yes
> Holland: No
> Nederland: No


There's no need to list all the region that took their name from the Latin one.
I studied too much Latin history.
I was talking about the name of the language (Theodisce, remember?) not about the name of the regions.
And I wrote that the Romans classified every region with its language.
They subdivided each region on the language spoken...
I didn't say that every name they gave to each region has survived.


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## berndf

Ok then:

If _diota _was still a normal German, _þeod _a normal English and _þioð_ a normal Nordic word in everyday language long after the collapse of the Roman empire, why does it need Latin to be kept alive?

_Diota _is a much more logical source for High German _deutsch _and Anglo-Saxon _þiudisc_ a much more logical source for Low German _düdesch_ than _theodisce_ (which comes from Gothic) could ever be.


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## Frank06

Hi,


DigitalepurpureA said:


> the Romans classified every region with its language. They subdivided each region on the language spoken...


Can you please substantiate that claim?

Groetjes,

Frank


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## DigitalepurpureA

Well, okay.
Let's say this: You can't assume that Latin had a great influence on the great part of the European languages.
The same fact that there are some words in non neolatin languages demonstrates it.
I was trying to say that this great influence helped the name of the German language, Teodische, to arrive until the present day.
It is also true, as you demonstred in the other post, that not all the Latin names of regions and languages survived.
It is also due to the fact that the Latin literature talked a lot about Germany and its language (see "Germania", Agricola).
This helped a lot of words to arrive until the present day.
I hope I've been clearer, now ^_^


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## berndf

DigitalepurpureA said:


> I was trying to say that this great influence helped the name of the German language, Teodische, to arrive until the present day.


This claim has not been substantiated yet. The word _Deutsch_ (or _Duits_ on Dutch of_ Dutch_ in English, etc) has an uninterrupted attested history in Germanic languages itself. It is not at all obvious that Latin had anything whatsoever to do with this. If you say it does, I would like to hear your reasons.


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## DigitalepurpureA

Frank06 said:


> Hi,
> 
> Can you please substantiate that claim?
> 
> Groetjes,
> 
> Frank


Is there need to substantiate it?
It is well known that they subdivided names of Regions and populations on their languages and uses.
As I wrote in the post before, see "Germania", by Agricola, or "De Bello Gallico" by Caesar.
In both are described uses & costumes, languages, landscapes, ways of making wars etc etc etc...


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## DigitalepurpureA

berndf said:


> This claim has not been substantiated yet. The word _Deutsch_ (or _Duits_ on Dutch of_ Dutch_ in English, etc) has an uninterrupted attested history in Germanic languages itself. It is not at all obvious that Latin had anything whatsoever to do with this. If you say it does, I would like to hear your reasons.


If we (Italian) call the Germany language "Tedesco" and not "Germanese" it is obviously due to the fact this name has been diffused through Italy thanks to that literature I was talking about.
Obviously, we call France Francia and not Britannia Minor because France is a much more older nation than Germany, and its own name supplanted the Latin one.
Regardless the fact that the name of the German language has always been attested through history, we call the German language as Tedesco not because we took it from the modern German "Deutsch" but because we inherited it from the Latins.


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## dinji

DigitalepurpureA said:


> Regardless the fact that the name of the German language has always been attested through history, we call the German language as Tedesco not because we took it from the modern German "Deutsch" but because we inherited it from the Latins.


Yes, but the "Late Latins" ("Early Romance"?) speakers had taken it from an ancient Germanic language (Gothic? Langobardic?, Vandal? who knows)


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## DigitalepurpureA

Yes,they took it from a Germanic language, but the thing I was trying to say is that in my nation it has been diffused by Latins, and it helped the almost original version of the word to survive until the present day in my country.


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## berndf

DigitalepurpureA said:


> If we (Italian) call the Germany language "Tedesco" and not "Germanese" it is obviously due to the fact this name has been diffused through Italy thanks to that literature I was talking about.
> Obviously, we call France Francia and not Britannia Minor because France is a much more older nation than Germany, and its own name supplanted the Latin one.
> Regardless the fact that the name of the German language has always been attested through history, we call the German language as Tedesco not because we took it from the modern German "Deutsch" but because we inherited it from the Latins.


Ah! Now you are *only* talking about why the *Italians* call German _tedesco _and not why the *Germans* call it _Deutsch_. That is completely uncontentious.

But in your first post in this thread you wrote "notice the similarity with Deutsch, that Germans inherited from this latin word". This is something totally different!


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## berndf

dinji said:


> Yes, but the "Late Latins" ("Early Romance"?) speakers had taken it from an ancient Germanic language (Gothic? Langobardic?, Vandal? who knows)


Yes, it is *Late* Latin and the origin is Gothic.


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## DigitalepurpureA

berndf said:


> Ah! Now you are *only* talking about why the *Italians* call German _tedesco _and not why the *Germans* call it _Deutsch_. That is completely uncontentious.
> 
> But in your first post in this thread you wrote "notice the similarity with Deutsch, that Germans inherited from this latin word". This is something totally different!


Yes, you're right on that sentence of mine


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## berndf

DigitalepurpureA said:


> Yes, you're right on that sentence of mine


Ok, then we are totally in agreement.

By the way, wellcome to the  forum and looking foreward to lively discussions!


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## DigitalepurpureA

Thank you ^-^


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## Orion7

22caps said:


> Hey, I don't speak German at all, but I was wondering if someone could explain to me why German, of all other languages, changes the most between languages.
> 
> For instance...  English = German.... Spanish = Alemán.... Italian = Tedesco... German = Deutsche (sp?)...
> 
> Whereas for, let's say, Spanish.... English = Spanish.... Spanish = Español.... Italian = Spagnolo.... French = Espagnole.....
> 
> They are all very similar for other languages, just not German.  Anybody know the origin or reason of this?



In Latvian Germans are _vācieši_ (Lithuanian _vōkiečiai_), also totally different word from the above mentioned. It comes from _vāk-_ 'to speak/voice', Skrt. _vāk, vāčam_, Latin _vōx < *vāks_ 'speach, voice'.
The fact of being so many names for Germans lies on so many different nations living around them, usually having it's own name for neighbouring nation.
For example, Latvians use _krievi_ (name from Northeast Baltic tribe _kreivaiči_ (Russ. _кривичи/kriviči_) former living on the right from Latvia) for Russians, _zviedri_ (from _Sverige < *Swēdrīke_ 'Sweden') for Swedes, _somi_ ['suomi] (Suomi 'Finland' in Finnish) for Finns, _leiši_ (from Curonian _leitis/leitji_ 'Lithuanian(s)') for Lithuanians, _igauņi_ (from _Ugaunija_, a district in Estonia) for Estonians. As you see no common names, comparing with _dāņi_ 'Danes', _itāļi_ 'italians', _spāņi_ 'Spanes', _franči, francūži_ 'Frenchmen', _angļi_ 'Englishmen, Angles', _ungāri, maģāri_ 'Hungarians, Magyars' etc.
The Germans' self name _Deutsche_, as also _Dutch'_ name is cognate to Latvian _tauta_ 'people, nation, folk', where _tauta < *tava-tā_ 'that of yours, thine', Latvian _tava_ 'thine', _tā_ 'it, that, she' .
Italian _Tedesco_, Proto-Germanic _*þeudisko_ are cognate to Latvian _tautisks_ 'national', where _tautisks < *tautas-kas_ 'that of nation', _tautas_ 'of nation', _kas_ 'what', as also the older form _Teut(i)sche_ seems to be direct cognate to Latvian _tautieši_ 'countrymen, compatriots'.


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