# Adjective possessive with neither...nor



## fandk

Hello,

I would like to ask for the sentence "Neither Jack nor Sarah knows their / her grandmother.    I wonder whether I should take only Sarah or both Jack and Sarah in consideration. 

Thanks for your help.


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## Barque

If the grandmother is both Jack and Sarah's, you need "their" and if she's only Sarah's, you need "her". The first is more likely from the sentence construction but the second can't be ruled out.

In either case, you need "know", not "knows".

Cross-posted.


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## entangledbank

'Her' can only refer to Sarah: it would mean Jack didn't know Sarah's grandmother. 'Their' refers to them both: Jack's grandmother and Sarah's grandmother (who might or might not be the same person).


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## wandle

The lady must be the grandmother of both: otherwise, the question is misconceived (in giving the option of 'their'). 
Consequently, the possessive adjective must be 'their.'

On the other hand, 'neither ... nor ...' distinguishes one from another. Hence the verb needs to be singular.


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## Barque

wandle said:


> The lady must be the grandmother of both:


That doesn't have to be the case, in my opinion, thought it's much more likely.


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## wandle

Barque said:


> That doesn't have to be the case, in my opinion, thought it's much more likely


This is a question (set, I presume, by a teacher or in an exam) where 'their' is one of the options presented to be chosen from.
If the lady were only Sarah's grandmother, 'their' would never come into the reckoning in the first place.

The fact that it is a choice at all shows that is the right choice for that question. 
Otherwise, the student has no way to choose. But choose he or she must.


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## PaulQ

If Jack and Sarah are brother and sister -> "Neither Jack nor Sarah knows know their grandmother.
If Jack and Sarah are unrelated -> "Neither Jack nor Sarah knows their grandmothers.
If Jack and Sarah are talking about two other people who are brother and sister -> "Neither Jack nor Sarah knows/know their grandmother.
If Jack and Sarah are talking about two other people who are unrelated -> "Neither Jack nor Sarah knows/know their grandmothers.

If Jack and Sarah are talking about Sarah -> "Neither Jack nor Sarah knows/know her grandmother.
If Jack and Sarah are talking about a woman/girl -> "Neither Jack nor Sarah knows/know her grandmother.

(It is possible to use knows but the context seems to indicate that Jack and Sarah are together and create a plural subject) -> They *do *not know their grandmother.


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## wandle

'Neither' means 'not either' and 'either' means 'one of two' or 'each of two'. Hence both 'either' and 'neither' are singular.


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## Englishmypassion

I agree with wandle-- it should be "know*s*".


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## fandk

Thank you very much for all of your explanation. It is now clear to me. I do really appreciate.


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## PaulQ

wandle said:


> 'Neither' means 'not either' and 'either' means 'one of two' or 'each of two'. Hence both 'either' and 'neither' are singular.


Of course I see your point, but both are in common use and both are defensible depending upon context - I see it as an aidaphoron adiaphoron. 

(Edit typo...)


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## Tofail

PaulQ said:


> Of course I see your point, but both are in common use and both are defensible depending upon context - I see it as an aidaphoron.


Don't mind. What is aidaphoron. Google search resulted "Your search - aidaphoron - did not match any documents."


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## siares

It has a typo: adiaphoron.

Here's another thread with more difficult example (regarding the singular or plural, not possessive):
Neither my sister nor I___going to the party tomorrow


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## PaulQ

Tofail said:


> What is aidaphoron.





siares said:


> It has a typo: adiaphoron.


OED:





> BE ˌ/adɪˈafərɒn/ -  U.S. /ˌædaɪˈæfərˌɑn/ Usually in the plural - Adiaphora.
> 
> An issue or practice not considered to be central to a religion, especially in Christianity; a religious matter that allows latitude; a non-essential element of a faith. Also: something of a morally neutral nature; *a thing which is neither inherently good nor bad.*


... or to put it another way - "It doesn't matter what you do."


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## wandle

PaulQ said:


> I see it as an aidaphoron adiaphoron.





PaulQ said:


> ... or to put it another way - "It doesn't matter what you do."


For the sake of consistency in teaching and learning and of quality in spoken or written English, it does matter.


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## Barque

wandle said:


> This is a question (set, I presume, by a teacher or in an exam)...If the lady were only Sarah's grandmother, 'their' would never come into the reckoning in the first place.


I don't know where the OP got this sentence from. I was pointing out there is a situation in which "her" is also possible, so that the OP doesn't get the impression that only "their" is possible in such sentences.


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## wandle

Barque said:


> there is a situation in which "her" is also possible,


I would call it a situation in which 'her' is possible and 'their' is not.


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## Barque

I'm not sure I have understood you but that _is_ what I said.


Barque said:


> and if she's only Sarah's, you need "her".



Edit: All right, I think I see what you mean. By "also" I meant that there's also a situation in which "her" is possible, not that both "their" and "her" are possible. I thought that was clear.


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## wandle

In such a case, the choice of 'her' or 'their' cannot be offered. But in the topic sentence, it has been offered.


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## Barque

I don't agree with that reasoning. If the question was set by a teacher/examiner, he or she might have believed that "their" was the only possible answer without realising that there was a situation in which "her" could also work. 

If the OP himself came up with it, he might not have been sure which one to use - even if he was referring to a common grandmother he might have thought that "her" was appropriate because the last name before the pronoun was a female name. As he said (emphasis mine):


fandk said:


> I wonder whether I should take *only Sarah or* both Jack and Sarah in consideration.



I don't understand why you think it necessary to argue the point. I agree that "their" is the more likely word and have said as much above. I have also explained why I pointed out that "her" could work.


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## wandle

Barque said:


> I don't understand why you think it necessary to argue the point.


I hope I may gain your understanding of my view.

As stated above, I assume this is a question set for a student to answer. I take that as the context.

If we detach the sentence from that context, then of course it can have either meaning. But then there would be no way for the student to choose one or the other.

If you are a student faced with that question, you have to choose. It would be incompetent or else unfair of a teacher or examiner to set a question in which there was no way to choose between the alternatives offered.

Hence there must be a way to choose. We have to assume (as the student in a test must assume) that there is a way to know that one answer is wrong and the other right. The only situation which fits that bill is that the lady is the grandmother of both.


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## PaulQ

The "test question" that the OP quoted has so many possible contexts, that it could never be possible to give a correct answer without referring to all possible meanings.

Arguing on a basis of "it should be X" is pointless for those without the requisite crystal ball to see what the examiner thought the context was or are willing to give all contexts.


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## wandle

wandle said:


> We have to assume ... that there is a way to know that one answer is wrong and the other right.


On any other assumption the point cannot be decided.


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## Andygc

Neither Jack nor Sarah knows their grandmother.

Two grandmothers. 'Their' used as the singular, gender-free, possessive pronoun.

Neither Jack nor Sarah knows their grandmother.

One grandmother. 'Their' used as the plural possessive pronoun.

Neither Jack nor Sarah knows her grandmother.

One grandmother. Sarah's.

Neither Jack nor Sarah knows his grandmother.

One grandmother. Jack's - but a slightly unusual word order.


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## wandle

Andygc said:


> Two grandmothers.


For that case, you need 'his or her grandmother'. Even so, some ambiguity remains.


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## Andygc

wandle said:


> For that case, you need 'his or her grandmother'. Even so, some ambiguity remains.


Edited while you were writing, but I disagree.


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## wandle

Andygc said:


> Neither Jack nor Sarah knows their grandmother.
> Two grandmothers. 'Their' used as the singular, gender-free, possessive pronoun.
> Neither Jack nor Sarah knows their grandmother.
> One grandmother. 'Their' used as the plural possessive pronoun.


Is it possible that those different meanings could be intended in different contexts? Yes.
Does that help the student needing to choose between the alternatives offered in the question? No.


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## Andygc

It doesn't help the student at all. It's an ill-conceived question in giving the options as "their" and "her", since both are grammatically correct.

You made an assumption early in this thread which was invalid.


wandle said:


> The lady must be the grandmother of both: otherwise, the question is misconceived (in giving the option of 'their').


The singular possessive "their" is standard English and valid in that sentence.

"Neither Sarah nor Jane knows their grandmother." That seems to be just one grandmother, otherwise we'd expect "her".
"Neither Jack nor John knows his grandmother." One or two grandmothers. We have no way of knowing. Note the singular possessive pronoun.
"Neither Sarah nor Jane knows her grandmother." One or two grandmothers. We have no way of knowing. Note the singular possessive pronoun.
"Neither Jack nor Jane knows their grandmother."Oh dear. Is that the standard use of "their" as a singular possessive pronoun to avoid "his or her"? If so there are probably two grandmothers. But if it is plural "their" then there's only one grandmother. 

But none of that helps to do anything other than point out that "Neither Jack nor Sarah knows their grandmother." and "Neither Jack nor Sarah knows her grandmother." are both valid. All you can tell from the two sentences is that the second refers to a single grandmother.


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## siares

I can't follow it what with kids not knowing (some of) their grandmothers, and taking into account that they have two in total if they are siblings and 4 in total if they are not.


Andygc said:


> Is that the standard use of "their" as a singular possessive pronoun to avoid "his or her"?


I don't understand this Are these sentences correct, or at least the first one?
_Neither the boy nor the girl likes his or her physics teacher.
Neither girl 1 nor girl 2 likes her or her physic teacher._


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## Andygc

Where a singular possessive pronoun is needed and a single gender one cannot be used, some people insist on saying "his or her". English has used "their" in such cases for several hundred years. There are threads on that topic. This is probably the most comprehensive:  Gender neutral 3rd person singular pronouns - she, he, them, they, their, he/she, s/he, his, her, its


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## siares

Thanks, Andygc, I know the 'their' but was having trouble with it specifically in the 'neither nor' construction, and with people being related or not.
Would you please have a look at these:


PaulQ said:


> If Jack and Sarah are brother and sister -> "Neither Jack nor Sarah knows know their grandmother.
> If Jack and Sarah are unrelated -> "Neither Jack nor Sarah knows their *grandmothers.*





Andygc said:


> "Neither Jack nor Jane knows their *grandmother.*"
> Oh dear.
> 1)Is that the standard use of "their" as a singular possessive pronoun to avoid "his or her"? If so there are probably *two grandmothers.*
> 2) But if it is plural "their" then there's only one grandmother.


Are the coloured sentences tallying?
Why is there a plural 'grandmothers' in the PaulQ's post and only one in your post? Did you not analyse the situation when Jack and Sarah are unrelated? Ideally, I'd like an answer with a grandmother-less examples, please!

Thank you.


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## PaulQ

I think Andy will agree that English is deficient in resolving unequivocally cases in which there are multiple people and multiple possessions/one possession/a common possession. Although, in most cases, common sense or context will give the meaning, in _extremis_, we have to resort to
(i) rewriting
(ii) adding parentheses
(iii) adding more context.


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## siares

Thank you, PaulQ. I'd still like an example with a singular and plural physics teacher, please.



PaulQ said:


> (i) rewriting


In case there is call for brevity and clarity and not for elegance or idiomatic language, are these unequivocal?
- for a case when Bob didn't complete his 1 mission, Jane didn't complete hers; there wasn't a mission they would have shared completing
_Neither Jane nor Bob completed each's mission.
Neither Jane nor Bob completed their respective mission.
_
Thank you.


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## PaulQ

siares said:


> In case there is call for brevity and clarity


Exactly how long have you been an optimist? 

_Neither Jane nor Bob completed each's mission._ -> 
(i) Jane did not complete the mission that Bob was given [by the organiser] and Bob did not complete the mission that Jane was given [by the organiser.] There is no information as to whether they completed their own mission. 
(ii) Jane did not complete the mission that Bob gave her and Bob did not complete the mission that Jane gave him. _

Neither Jane nor Bob completed their respective mission. _-> 
(i) Separately, neither Jane nor Bob completed their mission of retrieving a barrel from the middle of a lake that they were given. 
(ii) Separately, neither Jane nor Bob completed their individual, unique mission that each was given. 
(iii) Acting together, neither Jane nor Bob completed the mission of retrieving a barrel from the middle of a lake, which was their mission. 
(iv) Acting together, neither Jane nor Bob completed the individual, unique mission that each pair of competitors was given.
(v) as (iii) and (iv) but with the difference that Bob and Jane were not a pair but teamed with someone else.

I suppose there might be some disagreement on the ideas above.


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## wandle

siares said:


> Neither Jane nor Bob completed each's mission.
> Neither Jane nor Bob completed their respective mission.


Neither of these is valid, I am afraid. 'Each's' is not a valid form: 'her or his'. 
In the second sentence, it needs to be 'missions', because each had one.


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## siares

PaulQ said:


> Exactly how long have you been an optimist?


All right, you should train all those ESL teachers who give questions imagining only one possible answer, which then get posted on a forum.


wandle said:


> Neither of these is valid, I am afraid. 'Each's' is not a valid form: 'her or his'.
> In the second sentence, it needs to be 'missions', because each had one.


Thank you, wandle.
Each's is not valid, but it is not meaningless I think, I used it spontaneously before and as I heard it coming out it did sound strange. After that I founda discussion here: each's

Perhaps there should be a little contest on who can write the most concise unequivocal phrasing of the needed information.
I'd really love that!



PaulQ said:


> I think Andy will agree that English is deficient in resolving unequivocally cases in which there are multiple people and multiple possessions/one possession/a common possession.


A plural possession thread to enjoy: Proper possessives [Bob's and Mary's dog/ Bob and Mary's dogs, etc.]


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## Andygc

I haven't had the opportunity to reply sooner. 


PaulQ said:


> I think Andy will agree that English is deficient in resolving unequivocally cases in which there are multiple people and multiple possessions/one possession/a common possession. Although, in most cases, common sense or context will give the meaning, in _extremis_, we have to resort to
> (i) rewriting
> (ii) adding parentheses
> (iii) adding more context.


Yes. Preferably rewriting. Here's some grandmother-free sentences.

Any voter in Britain has only one member of Parliament (MP).

Neither John nor Jane knows their MP. I don't know if they have the same MP or different MPs.
Neither John nor Jack knows their MP. That should be the same MP, but some people have started to use "their" singular even when the gender is blindingly obvious.
Neither John nor Jack knows his MP. Very probably an MP each - but not necessarily so.


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## siares

It all snapped clear, thank you.


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## Dale Texas

I love the idea of "grandmother-free" sentences.  

Maybe we should ban the word "grandmother" from the English language.


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## siares

Oh no, sorry, another query occurred to me.

For my purposes, I choose one MP each interpretation in:


Andygc said:


> _Neither John nor Jane knows their MP._ I don't know if they have the same MP or *different MPs*.



One mission each
_Neither Jane nor Bob completed their respective mission._


wandle said:


> it needs to be 'missions', because each had one.



Is it the word _respective_ which demands the noun after it be in plural?

Thank you.


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## wandle

siares said:


> Is it the word _respective_ which demands the noun after it be in plural?


 Good question. On reflection, I would prefer to change my earlier comment and say that the sentence 'Neither Jane nor Bob completed their respective mission' is not good because it confuses singular and plural. The clear and simple way to express the idea is:

'Neither Jane nor Bob completed her or his mission.'


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## siares

Thank you very much, wandle, for coming back. I see!


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