# Duo/ dubitare



## ThomasK

There seems to be an etymological link between _2_ and _doubt_ in some languages.Fairly obvious, you might say, but is it the case in any language you know ? 

Dutch: _twee/ twijfelen_
German: _zwei/ zweifeln_
Danish: _to/ tvivl _
_ - and in a lot more Germanic languages, I guess_
Fr. : _deux/ doûter (doubt)_
Italian_: duo/ dubitare_
_ - and in more Romanic languages, so it seems to me_

_But then: _
Lingala: _mole/ metata_
Estonian: _kaks/ kahtlust_ 
Hungarian: _két/ kétség _

I do not think it is the case in Finnish, but... 
_Can you go on ?_


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## Awwal12

At least in *Russian* (and, I suppose, in most of Slavic languages) that isn't true. "Doubt" will be "сомнение" (somn*e*niye), related with the verb "сомневаться" (somnev*a*tsa) - to doubt, which literally means something like "to off-imagine oneself", "to off-think oneself".


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## apmoy70

Not in Greek:
2 is «δύο» ('ðio) & "to be doubtful" is «αμφιβάλλω» (amfi'valo); compound word formed by the joining together of the preposition «ἀμφί-» (am'pʰi-, "both, of both kinds, on both sides, around") + verb «βάλλω» ('balō, "throw so as to hit, hit with a missile, striking with a weapon in the hand"). Αμφιβάλλω in ancient Greek meant "to throw or shoot with a weapon around". Since the Hellenistic times its meaning has been altered and with it we mean "to be ambiguous, doubtful, uncertain".
Doubt (noun) is «αμφιβολία» (amfivo'lia, _f._).


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## ThomasK

This is great, Apmoy: you're proving my point but in a different way, as *ἀμφί* is quite related with 'two', don't you think so ? 

As for Russian, Awwal:  could you think of anything similar ? I mean: words like *hesitate, or ..., starting with two*? Could you imagine any words derived from _two_ in Russian?


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## apmoy70

ThomasK said:


> This is great, Apmoy: you're proving my point but in a different way, as *ἀμφί* is quite related with 'two', don't you think so ?


Come to think of it, you're right, one could find an indirect  connection between the preposition "am'pʰi-" & 2 (two, as a  quantitative property)


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## Awwal12

> As for Russian, Awwal: could you think of anything similar ? I mean: words like hesitate, or ..., starting with two?


"to hesitate" - "колебаться" /koleb*a*tsa/ (lit. "to shake" (oneself), "to vacillate"); "не решаться" /ne resh*a*tsa/ (lit. "not make up mind", "not decide", "not venture")


> Could you imagine any words derived from two in Russian?


Only directly related to "two": двойняшки /dvoyny*a*shki/ (twins), "двойной" /dvoyn*o*y/ (double) etc. Some nouns beginning on "dv-" are definitely unrelated (for example, "дверь" /dver'/, cognate of Germanic "Tür"/"door").


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## ThomasK

Thanks, A & A, just trying - and only being succesful once. _(I could have guessed I did not stand a chance with_ hesitate_, where not a choice is involved, but a decision - to move ahead)._


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## RaLo18

Hebrew:
Doubt - ספק (_safek_)
Two - שתיים (_shtayim_)

They don't seem to be related at all.


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## jazyk

In Portuguese:
two = dois (masc.), duas (fem.)
doubt = dúvida (fem. noun), duvidar (verb)


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## sakvaka

ThomasK said:


> I do not think it is the case in *Finnish*, but...



No, it's not, which is quite surprising since Hungarian and Estonian have the same connection.

_two, double_ — kaksi, kaksinkertainen
_doubt _— epäillä

The latter is, according to some research, originally the frequentative form of _evätä_ (refuse, deny, reject). So, the metaphor would be "to be continuously refusing something to enter your mind".


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## Maroseika

Ossetian:
Doubt, hesitation lit. mean "two-heartness":
doubt - дызæрдыг (dyzardyg)
two - дыууæ (dyu:a)
heart - зæрдæ (zarda)


Kazakh:
 doubtful (fig.) - екі ұшты (eki ishty)
 two - eki


Tatar:
doubt - икеләнү (ikeleni)
two - ике (ike) 


Chuvash:
doubt - иккӗленӳ (ikkeleni) 
two - йккӗ (ikke)


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## ThomasK

RaLo18 said:


> Hebrew:
> Doubt - ספק (_safek_)
> Two - שתיים (_shtayim_)
> 
> They don't seem to be related at all.


 
I agree, but maybe there are synonyms of _two_, like _both_ (_amphi_, in Greek) ? Or do you have verbs starting with _shta_ and referring to _2 _?

@Sakvaka: interesting information - and contributing to 'views on doubting' ! It does remind me of hesitating more than of doubting, though.

@Maroseika: I love this Ossetian interpretation ! Would you be able to add any comment as to the second part of the K, T and C word ? _(But this has been quite interesting already !)_


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## Maroseika

ThomasK said:


> @Maroseika: I love this Ossetian interpretation ! Would you be able to add any comment as to the second part of the K, T and C word ?


Unfortunately I can't say for sure. At least in the Kazakh expression the second part seems to be a verb (smth. like Ger. X machen).
As for Chuvash and Tatar, I guess this is just a suffix, like in Turkish *ikilem* - dilemma (iki - two and I don't think this is a kind of semi-calque and '-lem' is directly from Gr. lemma, because for 'lemma' Turkish has another word).


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## ThomasK

That seems plausible at least. Thanks !


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## Maroseika

I'm not sure but maybe we can interprete Russian *сомнение* < соумнение as сѫ- + мнение:

мнение - opinion
сѫ- - noun prefix meaning connection, mutuality i.e. to some extent twoness or duality, e.g.:
сугубый (lit. two-folded) - double
сѫсѣдъ (lit. the one sitting together) - neighbour

Maybe this is wrong, but I don't see any other explanation of *сомнение*.


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## Awwal12

> I'm not sure but maybe we can interprete Russian сомнение < соумнение as сѫ- + мнение:
> 
> мнение - opinion
> сѫ- - noun prefix meaning connection, mutuality i.e. to some extent twoness or duality, e.g.:
> сугубый (lit. two-folded) - double
> сѫсѣдъ (lit. the one sitting together) - neighbour
> 
> Maybe this is wrong, but I don't see any other explanation of сомнение


1. Are you sure that "со-" here means "connection, mutuality"?
2. Sorry, but "to some extent" doubt itself means "twoness or duality". Nevertheless, there is no any etymological relation in Russian, only slight semantical one (which actually causes the use of "two-related" words in many other languages). And there is no any etymological relation between "со-" and "два" as well, despite any meaning of the former here (which never means "two" by itself, I must remind).


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## Maroseika

Awwal12 said:


> 1. Are you sure that "со-" here means "connection, mutuality"?


Vasmer is with me here (or I'm with him?).



> And there is no any etymological relation between "со-" and "два" as well, despite any meaning of the former here (which never means "two" by itself, I must remind).


It was just a guess, I don't insists. However I don't see any other etymological explanation or Russian сомневаться. And at least this construction semantically seems to be closer to the "two-type" of the words for doubt, than to any other type.


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## ThomasK

I am an outsider, but the interpretation is at least attractive (if not seducing) considering my hypothesis... ;-) If I understand well, the question here is whether there is a reference in "два" to 'two'. I do think mutuality implies two-ness ;-) . So... 

_But I am too much of a wishful thinker from time to time !_


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## ThomasK

Can anyone comment on this link in Polish ? Could it be a link ? I looked up both words, and now wonder: 
_wątpić < dwa ?_


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## Equinozio

ThomasK said:


> Dutch: _twee/ twijfelen_
> German: _zwei/ zweifeln_
> Danish: _to/ tvivl _
> _ - and in a lot more Germanic languages, I guess_
> Fr. : _deux/ doûter (doubt)_
> Italian_: duo/ dubitare_
> _ - and in more Romanic languages, so it seems to me_



Very interesting observation. I tried to look for a similar link in Tagalog but couldn't find any.

Two - dalawa
Doubt, hesitate - mag-alinlangan, mag-alangan, mag-atubili, mag-urong-sulong

We do say, _magduda_ though, from Spanish _(dos/duda?)_.


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## ThomasK

ONe suggestion,Equinozo, or no, some: 
 - what do all the _mag_-words mean ? (_alinalangan, alangan, atubili, urong-sulong_) It seems a little strange that you have so many; do they have a different meaning ? 
 - any chance that your _doubt_ refers to _both/ either/_ splitting ? I am exploring possibilities...


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## Equinozio

ThomasK said:


> - what do all the _mag_-words mean ? (_alinalangan, alangan, atubili, urong-sulong_) It seems a little strange that you have so many; do they have a different meaning ?
> - any chance that your _doubt_ refers to _both/ either/_ splitting ? I am exploring possibilities...


mag-alinlangan - to doubt
 alinlangan - doubt (noun)

 mag-alangan - to hesitate, to vacillate
 alangan - abnormal, irregular, improper
  alanganin - doubtful, uncertain, hesitant

 mag-atubili - to hesitate
 atubili - reluctance, hesitation

 mag-urong-sulong - to go backward and forward, to waver, to oscillate
 urong-sulong - indecisive, hesitant (literally, going backward and forward)

That's about all I know, ThomasK. I wish I had an etymological dictionary so I can go deeper into these words!


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## ThomasK

Well, the latter is certainly very interesting and speaks for itself: going backwards and forwards. 

This variation seems intriguing to me as well: 



> alangan - abnormal, irregular, improper
> alanganin - doubtful, uncertain, hesitant


 
Is the _*-in*_ some kind of special ending ? 

But is it correct that your verbs (or these verbs) are derived from nouns or adjectives ? 

And one last question : could you use any of the words you mention in another sense ?

_But for all these: feel free to answer or not, I do not want to take too much of your time)_


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## Equinozio

ThomasK said:


> Is the _*-in*_ some kind of special ending ?
> But is it correct that your verbs (or these verbs) are derived from nouns or adjectives ?
> And one last question : could you use any of the words you mention in another sense ?


*-in* is a common affix in Tagalog.
Tagalog verbs are made up of a root (usually a noun or an adjective) and one or more affixes.
I'm sorry I'm not sure I understand your last question. Would you mind rephrasing it?


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## ThomasK

No problem. I sometimes need more time to formulate a hunch better. I develop the one question into three... 

I start from the _ala/ ali_ words:


> alangan - abnormal, irregular, improper
> alinlangan - doubt (noun)
> alanganin - doubtful, uncertain, hesitant


 
They seem linked. *(a)* Is 'alangan' the basis and are the other two derivations? Does the suffix have a specific meaning ? 

Next: *(b)* 'alangan' is translated by neg. adj. (_ab-, ir-, im-_). Is the Tagalog word also negative (like _al-angan, not-angan_)? Just guessing !

*(c)* Can you replace the three or the two verbs by one another in a sentence? Can you use the *atu*-verb where you use the _*ala*_ (or *ali*) verb ? 

Thanks !


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## Trauer

ThomasK said:


> Can anyone comment on this link in Polish ? Could it be a link ? I looked up both words, and now wonder:
> _wątpić < dwa ?_



They don't seem to be related at all actually.


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## ThomasK

Too bad... ;-) Is the d- so very important, or are both kind of a's so different? I am very mcuh of a wishful thinker, and want to pursue a 'thread' to the very end... ;-) _[By the way: I had never realized that _twijfelen _en_ twee _had anything to do with one another, until my dictionary informed me of that...]_


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## Trauer

I mean they seem to be pretty far away if you ask me  I know what you mean though... this (d)WA and WĄ(tpić) could fool some people indeed.

I checked in etymology dictionary online, cuz I don't have with me any decent book dictionary and it says that _wątpić_ comes from _wątpa_, whatever that means  There's sth about _tepa_ and _dotepa_ and how it used to mean _concept/idea_, but not a word about its correlation with _dwa_.


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## Equinozio

ThomasK said:


> *(a)* Is 'alangan' the basis and are the other two derivations? Does the suffix have a specific meaning ?


I'm pretty sure *alanganin* is based on *alangan*. But I'm not sure about *alinlangan*. The suffix can have several meanings and unfortunately, I can't pinpoint the right one in this case.



> *(b)* 'alangan' is translated by neg. adj. (_ab-, ir-, im-_). Is the Tagalog word also negative (like _al-angan, not-angan_)? Just guessing !


I'm not sure it works that way. We have many words starting with *al* that don't have a negative meaning.



> *(c)* Can you replace the three or the two verbs by one another in a sentence? Can you use the *atu*-verb where you use the _*ala*_ (or *ali*) verb ?


You can, if the meanings overlap.

*mag-alinlangan* - to doubt, in the sense of not being certain about something
*mag-alangan* - to hesitate or vacillate, in the sense of not knowing what to choose between two options or not being certain about something
*mag-atubili* - to hesitate, in the sense of holding back

As you can see, the differences are very subtle.


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## ThomasK

Just one more: could you give me 5 _*al*_-words (some perhaps neg., some pos.) ?


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## Equinozio

@ThomasK

Here are some words starting with *al*:

alaala - memory
alak - wine
alaga - pet
alagad - follower
alam - knowledge
alamat - legend
alapaap - clouds
alat - saltiness
alipin - slave
alingasngas - scandal
alingawngaw - echo

All of them have a rather neutral meaning. I cannot think of any with a negative or positive meaning right now.


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## ThomasK

No, no, you are certainly right, I am often too much of a wishful thinker.


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## ThomasK

Filipino (Tagalog), I guess: d*ala*wang *ala*paap, is suggested by nicetranslator.com. Is the ala of any importance. I guess not, but just asking. 

Malay : *dua ragu-ragu* --- is the reduplication of any importance here ? 

Romanian: *doi la îndoială ---* I guess the _doi_ is repeated 

Swahili: *mbili katika shaka ---* does the _ka_ matter in any way, anyone ?


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## itreius

Croatian

*dva* (two)
*dvojba* (a state of doubt)
*dvojiti* (to doubt / doubting)


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## Rallino

Thanks to these threads I learn new words in my own language  It seems *Turkish *also has it.

2 = *iki*
doubt =  _*şüphe*_, but it has a synonym which I've just learnt: _*ikircik*_

So there


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## ThomasK

Great to hear (about) that !!!


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