# 仁人之所以為事者，必興天下之利



## Zbigniew

[仁人之所以為事者，必興天下之利]
Hello, this is Mozi, book 4, Universal Love II,
Terrible problems with translating it. Having translated each character: 
man of humanness (仁人), 
the reason why (之所以),
man who does his duty (business?) (為事者)
necesarily) (必)
will rise (興)
to the profil in the world (天下之利)
putting together: that's why the man of wisdom, who takes care of affairs (events), necessarily will get the profit
Makes sense????
Zbigniew


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## zhg

This is a bit tricky to explain, because Classical Chinese is very different from Modern Chinese. I don't how good is your Mandarin, anyway this is the translation I have found on Baidu.
_子墨子言曰：“仁人之所以为事者，必兴天下之利，除去天下之害，以此为事者也。”

墨子说：“仁人处理事务的原则，一定是为天下兴利除害，以此原则来处理事务。”_

As you can see here 之所以 are interpreted separately as  three independent characters(not one!), 之 is a grammatical particle indicating a possessive relation between subject 仁人 and the object (which is like 的 in modern Chinese). 所 is also a functional word when combined with 以 means “ the method/principle/...etc of <one> uses to". 

Besides, be ware that adjectives are commonly used as transitive verbs in Classical Chinese, like 兴 here.


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## SuperXW

Beside 之所以, 為事者 is not one word either.
為事: do things; 者 (also 也): grammatical particle to finish a clause. No meaning.

The whole sentence basically means:
The reason for a good man to do things must be that: to increase the benefits of the world, and to eliminate the harms of the world, that's why he do things.


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## fyl

I think zhg's explanation is better.
仁人之所以为事者=仁人所用来做事的东西, in other words, 仁人做事的原则.
I don't think there should involve anything about "reason".


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## SuperXW

I took a second look, I agree zhg's explanation could be better. 之所以 might have developed the meaning of "the reason why" later, but not in Mozi's age. I'm not sure.

Anyway, the general meaning of the sentence is clear.


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## retrogradedwithwind

者，this character itself could mean “……的原因”，吾妻之美我者，私我也。

者也，this phrase could be seen as the modern word “啊”. 舍鱼而取熊掌者也。

之所以，here we can simply see it as the modern phrase “之所以”.
If we explain those three characters separately, 之 would connect a subject with a noun phrase i.e. the “所 structure ”.
So how should we translate “所以”？


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## fyl

retrogradedwithwind said:


> 之所以，here we can simply see it as the modern phrase “之所以”.


Then it would be 仁人“为事”的原因是兴天下之利除天下之害.
说不通。如果要讲“为事”的原因，就得先有“仁人为事”这个特殊现象，然后才能解释这个现象的原因。
比如你可以说“仁人之所以叫做仁人者”，后面解释仁人为什么叫仁人。
而这里，整篇文章并没有把“为事”当作一个需要解释的特殊现象，“为事”就只是“处理事情”的意思。



retrogradedwithwind said:


> If we explain those three characters separately, 之 would connect a subject with a noun phrase i.e. the “所 structure ”.
> So how should we translate “所以”？


所以＝所用以，所用来

我觉得最后一句“以此为事者也”和前面“所以为事者”相呼应，两个“以”意思相同，整句话并没有歧义。


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## retrogradedwithwind

为事 is not 处理事情, and is closer to 主动做某事，有目的的做某事 doing things with a purpose, such as “今若国之与国之相攻，家之与家之相篡，人之与人之相贼，君臣不惠忠，父子不慈孝，兄弟不和调”.

In a nutshell 墨子's meaning is that all the people should not 为事 to harm the world, not be active to do things to harm the world.

——————————————
之所以
仁人之所以为事
仁人所用来处理事情的（原因）
or
仁人做事的原因？

所以 is a very common word in both classic and modern Chinese. In classic Chinese 所以 already has a meaning which is the same as the meaning in modern Chinese.
At least here our translating the original sentence as 仁人决定如何做事的原因，是……  is basically right.


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## fyl

retrogradedwithwind said:


> In a nutshell 墨子's meaning is that all the people should not 为事 to harm the world, not be active to do things to harm the world.


I'm believe you will find this wrong if you read the article again.
子墨子言曰：“仁人之所以为事者，必兴天下之利，除去天下之害，以此为事者也。”然则天下之利何也？天下之害何也？子墨子言曰：“今若国之与国之相攻，家之与家之相篡，人之与人之相贼，君臣不惠忠，父子不慈孝，兄弟不和调，此则天下之害也。”
然则察此害亦何用生哉？以不相爱生邪？子墨子言：“以不相爱生。”........
既以非之，何以易之？子墨子言曰：“以兼相爱、交相利之法易之。”........
Obviously, 去天下之害＝仁人为事 is what 墨子 suggested.


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## retrogradedwithwind

去天下之害＝不主动做坏事，因为要兼爱


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## fyl

去天下之害＝去除(天下之害), 天下之害 is a noun phrase defined in the first paragraph quoted in my previous post.

I think this is a quite easy article and I don't understand why there are different understandings at all.

Let's assume 之所以 is the same as in modern Chinese and see what happens. We both agree 兴天下之利，除去天下之害 is what 墨子 suggested, right? "仁人之所以为事者，必兴天下之利，除去天下之害", according to your explanation, means 仁人“为事” or “主动做坏事” 的原因是“兴天下之利，除去天下之害”. What's the logic? If you want to claim one should not 为事, you need 仁人之所以不应为事者，兴天下之利，除去天下之害.


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## retrogradedwithwind

为事＝做事

So the purpose of 仁人做事 is to 除天下之害。

天下之害 is what?
Answer: 国之与国之相攻，家之与家之相篡，人之与人之相贼，君臣不惠忠，父子不慈孝，兄弟不和调

How to 除害？
Through 做事.
仁人做事以除害。

做什么事？
兼爱。
只要君王兼爱，则害除。
楚王好细腰宫中多饿死。

仁人，可以认为是指君王。孟子，焉有仁人在位，罔民而可为也。


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## fyl

^ Yes, that's what my understanding is.

*Edit: Finally I see where the argument came from. Sorry!*
You wrote:





> In a nutshell 墨子's meaning is that all the people should not 为事 to harm the world, not be active to do things to harm the world.


You actually meant "all people should not 为事 to harm the world, but they can 为事 to benefit the world", the stress is on "to harm the world".
I understood it as "all people should not 为事, and 为事 is a thing to harm the world", the stress is on 为事, like "in an exam one should not look at other's answer to cheat".
This is where the misunderstanding came from. Sorry again!

For the 之所以 thing, I found there isn't much difference between the two explanations.所'以'(verb)的(东西) is roughly the same as the modern word 所以.


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## retrogradedwithwind

fly 握手


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