# Icelandic: þöll



## Gavril

What does _þöll_ (as seen in the word _þallarætt_ etc.) normally mean?

I've seen _þöll_ translated as "hemlock" (a type of tree), but since hemlocks aren't native to Europe, it seems that _þöll_ must (at least originally) have meant something else.

Thanks


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## Tjahzi

An adequate guess:

_Þöll_ appears to be a cognate of Swedish _tall_, generally translating to English _pine_ (Latin _pinus_). As such, I believe it covers the entire family of pine tree, all of which can be referred to as _tallar/þallir/pines/pinus_.


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## sindridah

Other Icelanders correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty convinced that Þöll is just a name and not a word.


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## Alxmrphi

sindridah said:


> Other Icelanders correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty convinced that Þöll is just a name and not a word.



It looks that way, orðabók marks it as a woman's name (konunafn) and Beygingarlýsing íslensks nútímamáls also lists it as only a woman's name (kvenmansnafn).


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## Gavril

sindridah said:


> Other Icelanders correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty convinced that Þöll is just a name and not a word.



It doesn't seem to be a very common word, but the Orðabanki dictionary (ordabanki.hi.is) translates _þöll_ as "hemlock, hemlock spruce". I've found a couple of other sites that use _þöll_ with this meaning.


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## Tjahzi

Well, that would make perfect sense considering there are no _þallir _in Iceland?


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## Alxmrphi

Tjahzi said:


> Well, that would make perfect sense considering there are no _þallir _in Iceland?



Hey, what do you mean here?
Which quote makes sense? I can't see a comment after your last one that would make sense because there aren't any in Iceland. Is it the fact that an Icelander wouldn't know the word?


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## Tjahzi

Ok, I've done some additional digging and this is my attempt to an analysis:

In Old Norse, the word for _pine (tree) _was _furu_. However, sometimes during the 15th-18th century, this word came to be replaced by the word _tall_ in Swedish. The meaning and origin of _tall_ is unclear, but it seems to have meant "the top of a growing tree" or "a young conifer (whose sprouts could be eaten by both humans or animals)". (Source here, but I doubt you'll make much out of it.) (After seemingly existing parallelly, the word for _pine tree_ finally ended up being _tall_ while _furu_ is used to denote the _wood__ of a pine tree_ in modern Swedish.)

To sum up, what we have is a very unusual word, _þöll, _that, according to one source, means _hemlock_ (a tree belonging to the _pine_ family) and that seems to be the cognate of a word, meaning _pine,_ whose origin is unclear, but seems to be related to trees in general and possibly to pines in particular. 
As such, my guess would be that _þöll_ could be another word for _pine_, or a certain type of _pine_, or just something else pertaining to trees.

What I meant to say with my previous post was that it makes perfect sense that it's an unknown/"not a very common" word, given the fact that it's related to trees, of which there are no on Iceland.


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## Alxmrphi

But we're agreed_ þöll_ and _tall_ are cognate?


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## Gavril

The only thing I can add is that, according to Koebler (link -- see the fifth entry from the bottom), the Old Norse ancestor of _þöll_ meant "young spruce tree" ("junger Fichtenbaum").

What's odd is that _þallarætt_ refers to the whole pine family (Pinaceae), just like Swedish _tallsläktet_, but the individual word _þöll_ (unlike Swedish _tall_) never seems to have meant "pine", and was chosen at some point to refer to a tree that's foreign to Iceland/Scandinavia.


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## Tjahzi

No, again, just me speculating. But we have very good reason to believe that the ON form of _þöll_ was _þallu_, and the above source, the dictionary of the Swedish Academy, lists OWN _þǫll_, which should be just in between _þallu_ and _þöll,_ as an early form of _tall_.

So...I'm not sure if you agree with me, but I'm rather sure.


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## Tjahzi

Indeed. It seems that the origin of the word was related to conifers in general, but that it later came to be connected with pines in particular in Swedish. Your earlier finds, and phrases such as _"*Skógarfura* __er barrtré af þallarætt." _(from here) makes me suspect a similar development, of some kind, to have occurred in Icelandic as well. 
I'm curious to learn whether Norwegian and Danish uses _tall_ or any derivates of it.



Gavril said:


> What's odd is that _þallarætt_ refers to the whole pine family (Pinaceae), just like Swedish _tallsläktet_, but the individual word _þöll_ (unlike Swedish _tall_)  never seems to have meant "pine", and was chosen at some point to refer  to a tree that's foreign to Iceland/Scandinavia.


Indeed. Well, it makes sense that _þöll _never meant pine, there were no pines to refer to. However, to from there pick one particular type of pine to be the one _þöll_ really seems a bit weird. That said, it certainly fits in as a word being revived. 

To really go to the bottom with this, I suspect we'll need an Icelandic tree expert. If there is such a thing, that is...


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## Donnerstag

This is a word from Old Norse. It is not really used in Icelandic anymore - the modern Icelandic word is _fura_ - although you might possibly see it used in a poetic context, and most Icelanders would know what you meant if you said it.

I remembered a verse from Hávamál when I saw this thread - it's one of the most quoted and famous verses:
_
Hrörnar þöll, 
sú er stendr þorpi á, 
hlýr-at henni börkr né barr; 
svá er maðr, 
sá er manngi ann. 
Hvat skal hann lengi lifa?_

Wise words, indeed


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