# We shall never surrender



## rupertbrooke

I have translated the rest of Churchill's speech into Latin & the best I can come up with for this phrase is 'numquam nos dedemus'. Can anyone suggest a better?


----------



## jazyk

I can put forth In neminis potestatem nunquam veniemus, but I like your suggestion better.


----------



## rupertbrooke

Multas tibi gratias ago, Linguae nomine, natura Linguae cui nomen Jazyk Linguam significat.


----------



## Scholiast

salvete amici!

_numquam nos dedemus!_ looks fine to me—pithy and epigrammatic, with the emphatic first-word position of _numquam_ just right for rhetorical flavour. I'd love to hear, or read, the rest of rupertbrooke's translation. Post here or send in a PM, please?

Curiosity is aroused: was this translation just a rhetorical (or school-?) exercise? Or self-imposed? As a student decades ago I was called upon to translate extracts of speeches by Burke or Gladstone into Latin, which I accomplished with (then) only mixed success.

Incidentally, fellow-Foreasters might be amused by a fragment of Ps.-Tacitus which I unearthed recently:

interim aliae supervenerunt res. civitas quam ipse iam mendaciis ac furtibus improvisis foedaverat novo prehendebatur sceleratu. nam sui rariter compos princeps incompositius etiam se gesserat stipendio mulieri cuidam ex cohorte tempestivarum scaenicae artis experti penso—dubium an lasciviarum ille capacior vel meretricius scortillum.​
Σ


----------



## jazyk

I would like to receive a copy per PM as well.


----------



## rupertbrooke

I'll do my best to search Churchill's speech out. I think I know where it is! I really liked the 'Ps.-Tacitus'. Just one query: what is the meaning of meretricius scortillum? Do you mean meretricii scortillum to balance lasciviarum ille i.e. it is doubtful whether he [the emperor] was more fit for acts of lewdness or the harlot for plying her trade?


----------



## Scholiast

salvete omnes!


rupertbrooke said:


> meretricius scortillum


 to be taken in comparative sense with _lasciviarum...capacior_. Stylish advanced Latin, especially that of Tacitus, likes expressions such as _occultius non melior_.

Further fragments of Ps.-Tacitus come to light (he has been encouraged to make a blog of this) and may also amuse.

pueritiae honesta, senescenti illi gravitas ad rem publicam capessendam apta procul fuere—nisi lubidinum vi egregius praecellere quam mentis; quippe comis aeque flagrans ac morum turpitudine, deterrimo cuique ipse deterior, quin ob simulatos stupros an rebus vere gestis vilior discerneretur, incredibilium vulgator civitatem grassationibus foedaverat. qui ille nomine etiam linguae honesto togatae recente crudi more dehonestat, mores ac gentes Africae ut testamonii stercus imperturbiliter opprobans.​
And from Ps.-Gibbon, this:

By habit a thief, by profession a pedlar, and in the politer arts a novice, the claimant vaunted his less amiable accomplishments with the same large proficiency with which a gladiator might equally stir enthusiasm or dismay among a public for whom horror vied with enthralment at the aspect of blood. Soothsayers and a vulgar suasion had conferred on the incumbent elect, as they had denied to his vanquished rival, an eligibility for elevation to the purple incommensurate with the canons of reason, the precepts of government, or the sensibilities of a candid historian.​
Σ


----------



## rupertbrooke

So meretricius is an adverb. I've not come across occultius non melior. He says of Pompey: Cn.Pompeius occultiior non melior: with a character more disguised but no way better. I enjoy these paragraphs of yours & am spending time mulling over them 'in a cool hour'. Thanks for them! Incidentally, testamonii and imperturbiliter are, I presume, typos for testimonii and imperturbabiliter.


----------



## Scholiast

salvete de novo

_meretricius_ is both a comparative adjective (neuter, agreeing with _scortillum_) and adverb. Construed as an adjective, it will mean 'more whorely'. But the rhetorical point would be  _capacior...meretricius_, 'he more capable of lascivious behaviour, or she of being a slut.'

I'm told by a London Professor that Ps.-Tacitus ought to start a blog.

Perhaps he should.

Σ


----------



## rupertbrooke

Thanks, Ps.-Tacitus. Since your Gibbon is so typical of his style, now translate into Ps.-Gibbon your admirable fragment of Ps.-Tacitus! Prep for tonight!


----------



## Scholiast

salvete iterum


rupertbrooke said:


> testamonii and imperturbiliter are, I presume, typos


Perfectly shocking, how careless some of our MS authorities can be.
Σ


----------



## bearded

Hello
I have a couple of questions for you experts:
1. Does ''we shall never surrender'' - in the famous speech - really mean ''we won't surrender/yield to the enemy'' (literal meaning) or does it generally mean ''we shall never give up/renounce to our principles...''? (*)   I'm asking this because the translations proposed (nos dedemus / in neminis potestatem..veniemus) only seem to correspond to the former meaning but not so much to the latter. If this is true, I'll leave it to you to find a more suitable verb/expression.
2. In jazyk's translation there is a double negation (in _neminis _potestatem _numquam _veniemus): is that really correct in Latin, or should it be ''unquam''?
Thanks in adcance for your replies.

(*) for those among you who know German: _wir werden uns niemals ergeben _vs. _wir werden niemals aufgeben._


----------



## jazyk

Yes, in my proposal it should be unquam (or umquam).


----------



## rupertbrooke

Here is the context of Churchill's speech:-

Churchill warned that Britain was in for more trouble:

"We are told that Herr Hitler has a plan for invading the British Isles. ,

Declaring, defiantly, that Britain would defend herself - even if she had to do it "alone" - Churchill (at the end of this speech) told his country (and Hitler):

"We shall defend our island whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills. We shall NEVER surrender."

It is clear that he means surrender to the Nazis.


----------



## Mezzofanti

Are you chaps really happy with _neminis_ as genitive of _nemo _? In my day it was a defective pronoun with genitive _nullius _borrowed to fill the gap.


----------



## jazyk

nemo, neminis [m. or f.] C - Latin is Simple Online Dictionary
ONLINE LATIN DICTIONARY

But this is also interesting: Jacob Wackernagel, Lectures on Syntax


----------



## Mezzofanti

Sure, Jazyk, _neminis _is fine for pre-classical or post-classical Latin, or for colloquial contexts, but these exercises such as translating great vernacular orators into Latin, normally call for Ciceronian purity,  and I am convinced that the model authors of the classical period eschewed _neminis _in favour of _nullius_.


----------



## Scholiast

Scholiasta amicis SPD


Mezzofanti said:


> I am convinced that the model authors of the classical period eschewed _neminis _in favour of _nullius_.


Quite. That is Tacitus' hypercorrect irony.
Σ


----------



## rupertbrooke

True, Classical authors avoid neminis & use nullius. Plautus, however, does use neminis.


----------

