# Pronunciation of μψ and γξ



## sumelic

I have a question about the pronunciation of Greek. I know that the letter π normally is pronounced as the voiceless plosive /p/, but words written with μπ have the voiced plosive /b/ instead. Similarly, κ is normally /k/, but γκ has /g/ instead. I've read that some speakers pronounce a nasal sound when a vowel comes before μπ or γκ, but other speakers leave it out. The letters ψ and ξ are normally pronounced as sequences of two sounds, /ps/ and /ks/. How are μψ and γξ pronounced? I guess these are uncommon sequence of letters, but they seem to exist in a few words.

I tried to find clips of words with these sequences being pronounced online.
In the pronunciation here, I hear a voiceless consonant /p/ preceded by a nasal sound: Wordhippo ακαμψία It sounds like [akampsia] to me. There is one Forvo pronunciation that sounds like [mps] also.


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## apmoy70

I think that μψ is more like /ɱp͡s/, the /ɱ/ is a nasal sound like the m in the English word symphony.
On the other hand, γκ at the beginning of the word is /g/ but when found elsewhere in a word is /ŋg/ with /ŋ/ representing again a nasal sound like the English word sing.


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## dmtrs

γξ is pronounced using the same /ŋ/ apmoy70 describes above before ξ (ks). The word (θα/να) ελέγξω is pronounced (tha/na) eleŋkso (e as in egg).


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## sumelic

Thank you, apmoy70 and dmtrs. So it sounds like the rule about using the sounds /b/ and /d/ applies only to μπ and γκ, not μψ and γξ. That makes sense. And I just thought of one more thing--are /mp/ and /ŋk/ also used before a /t/ sound, as in άμεμπτος and πλαγκτόν?


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## dmtrs

sumelic said:


> are /mp/ and /ŋk/ also used before a /t/ sound, as in άμεμπτος and πλαγκτόν?



Exactly. Very good, sumelic!


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## Alexiosgreek

sumelic said:


> I have a question about the pronunciation of Greek. I know that the letter π normally is pronounced as the voiceless plosive /p/, but words written with μπ have the voiced plosive /b/ instead. Similarly, κ is normally /k/, but γκ has /g/ instead. I've read that some speakers pronounce a nasal sound when a vowel comes before μπ or γκ, but other speakers leave it out. The letters ψ and ξ are normally pronounced as sequences of two sounds, /ps/ and /ks/. How are μψ and γξ pronounced? I guess these are uncommon sequence of letters, but they seem to exist in a few words.
> 
> I tried to find clips of words with these sequences being pronounced online.
> In the pronunciation here, I hear a voiceless consonant /p/ preceded by a nasal sound: Wordhippo ακαμψία It sounds like [akampsia] to me. There is one Forvo pronunciation that sounds like [mps] also.


I "ll try to answer as a Greek native and not a phonologist or philologist. 

1. (μψ). There is a little stop before "ψ", "ακαμ-ψία", "akam-psia". So, "μ" and "ψ" pronounced separately, "m-ps". Wordhippo pronunciation sounds  closer to original,  let alone the prosody, which reminds me a Russian speaker. I would bet the speaker,she is a Russia-born.
2. (γξ). The only word I can recall is "απήγξατο". It's from Matthew Gospel 27.5. " ...και ρίψας τα αργύρια εν τω ναώ ανεχώρησε, και απελθών απήγξατο". It's about Judas remorse and suicide, "απήγξατο"means "κρεμάστηκε", "hung himself".
I can't  recall any word with γξ , in Modern Greek (Dimotiki). I think only an intellectual priest , philologist or theologian can pronounce this word correctly. If there is something absolutely  "correct" with regards to "απήγξατο". The most I can say  is generally acceptable to pronounce "απήγξατο" as 
"apin-ksato" or "apin-gsato". Maybe the latter is the most correct,  but is a tongue twister for a Modern Greek and the former is the most heard in churches. . Whatever the correct pronunciation is, there is always an "n", like in word " συγχωρώ"- sinhoro, "forgive".


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## Armas

Alexiosgreek said:


> I can't  recall any word with γξ , in Modern Greek (Dimotiki).


At least inflected forms like έλεγξα.
As for the pronunciation, I'd found /ŋgs/ rather cumbersome to pronounce. It's difficult to not pronounce it /ŋgz/.
I think I've always heard έλεγξα as /ŋks/, but I haven't payed any particular attention.


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## Alexiosgreek

Armas said:


> At least inflected forms like έλεγξα.
> As for the pronunciation, I'd found /ŋgs/ rather cumbersome to pronounce. It's difficult to not pronounce it /ŋgz/.
> I think I've always heard έλεγξα as /ŋks/, but I haven't payed any particular attention.


You are absolutely right for "έλεγξα" and other inflected forms of "ελέγχω" . And /nks/ is the right pronunciation. I wiil post a quizz for my FB friends , in order to find out if there are more words with "γξ".


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## Φρύδια

Hello there. I'm aware this is quite an old thread but I was curious if anyone might be able to help me with the following.

We've established that within word forms, clusters of voiceless obstruents generally overrule preceding nasals' propensity to voice subsequent stops, giving rise to forms like "λάμψη" [mps], "ίντσα" [nts], "έλεγξα" [ŋks], "πέμπτος" [mpt], "πλάγκτον" [ŋkt], etc.

What's going on across word boundaries though? I put my intuition to the test with some expressions that parallel the examples mentioned, and as far as I could tell, realisations of "δεν ξέρω" as [ŋ‿ɡz] or "την ψυχή" as [m‿bz] seemed to occur more or less in free variation with their unvoiced counterparts. Additionally, a number of sources are consistent in their transcription of "δεν ξέρω" as voiced (e.g. Peter Mackridge (1985): "The Modern Greek Language").

The behaviour of stop sequences on the other hand appears to be stable across word forms (i.e. "την πτώση" [m‿pt]). But as far as stop–fricative clusters go, is there indeed an assimilatory process at work that applies between, but not within phonological words? Or is it something about the internal composition of the clusters that I'm missing? While there's the obvious distinction in orthography, the assumption that <μ,ν,γ> ultimately denote the same phoneme /n/ in this context seems to me quite difficult to abandon.


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## sotos

Φρύδια said:


> What's going on across word boundaries though?


The same. Την ψυχή sounds like timbsichi. 
My wife who is foreigner thinks that the opposite of "Δεν πειράζει" is "μπειράζει".


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## ioanell

Φρύδια said:


> What's going on across word boundaries though? I put my intuition to the test with some expressions that parallel the examples mentioned, and as far as I could tell, realisations of "δεν ξέρω" as [ŋ‿ɡz] or "την ψυχή" as [m‿bz] seemed to occur more or less in free variation with their unvoiced counterparts.


The above realisations take place in their voiced “version” when the speech is rather uttered in a normal or fast pace, while when uttered in a slow pace “δεν ξέρω” can be heard as [ðén kséro] and “την ψυχή” can be heard as [tin psiçí].



Φρύδια said:


> The behaviour of stop sequences on the other hand appears to be stable across word forms (i.e. "την πτώση" [m‿pt]).


Again, in a fast speech pace it could be heard “τιμ‿μπντώση [tim‿bdosi]”, e.g. Οι ιστορικοί τοποθετούν την πτώση της Βυζαντινής Αυτοκρατορίας το 1453 / Historians place the fall of the Byzantine Empire in 1453.



Φρύδια said:


> is there indeed an assimilatory process at work that applies between, but not within phonological words?


In general, assimilation happening in regard to sonority: The conversion of the voiceless plosives π, τ, κ into the respective voiced plosives μπ, ντ, γκ and the voiceless affricate τσ /t͡s/ into the voiced affricate τζ /d͡z/ takes place after a nasal consonant (e.g. _στον Πέτρο _the_ *ν*_ of the article _στο*ν*_ is conversed into_ *μ* _and in a tie with the initial *Π* of *Π*έτρος is finally pronounced as *Mπ *[with the nasal *μ* either being heard as in _στομ‿Πέτρο_ > _στομ‿Μπέτρο_ > _stom‿Betro_ or not as in _στο‿Μπέτρο_ > _sto‿Betro_, depending on each one’s idiolect] and the conversion of the sibilant fricative *ς* into the sibilant fricative *ζ* takes place before another voiced consonant (e.g. in “της ζωής μου” the final *ς* of the word ζωή*ς* (gen.) before the first letter of the following word *μ*ου > της ζωήζ‿μου)


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## Αγγελος

Alexiosgreek said:


> (γξ). The only word I can recall is "απήγξατο". ^[...] I can't  recall any word with γξ , in Modern Greek (Dimotiki).


Have you never said «έλεγξέ το», «το 'χω ελέγξει»? Or «μη μου κάνεις κόγξες!» (also spelled κόνξες)? Or «τανκς»?
In all those words, the consonant cluster is pronounced [ŋks], and I don't think any Greek has difficulty pronouncing them that way!


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