# All Slavic: kobieta (woman) - (archaic) variants



## polskajason

In most Slavic languages some variant of *žena* is used for woman. Polish is a bit of an exception, using the term *kobieta*.

However, I just read from a Croat here that a similar word to kobieta was historically used, but s/he hints that it had a negative connotation.

Are there words with a similar root and general sense that are no longer used? How are they perceived today?


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## jazyk

There is _żona_ in Polish, but I see it being used only as _wife_.


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## ilocas2

polskajason said:


> ...I just read from a Croat here...



Some new posts were added there, it turned out that the Croat meant the word *kobila* (female horse).


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## Panceltic

Same here. Hearing _kobieta_, I can only think of _kobila_ which is indeed a mare (female horse).


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## Ben Jamin

The word "kobieta" was originaly a derogatory one, even offensive. The etymology of this word is not explained well enough. Some linguists suggest a common origin with "kobyła" (a derogatory word for a mare). "żona" was used i the meaning of "woman" until the XVI century.


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## marco_2

That's right - Brückner suggests that 'kobieta' comes either from 'kobyła' or from an old word 'kob', which meant 'pigsty' (from German 'Koben', 'Kobe'). Anyway, the word was derogatory until the 16th century.


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## DarkChild

Ben Jamin said:


> The word "kobieta" was originaly a derogatory one, even offensive. The etymology of this word is not explained well enough. Some linguists suggest a common origin with "kobyła" (a derogatory word for a mare). "żona" was used i the meaning of "woman" until the XVI century.


That's funny because kobieta makes me think of kobila, too. Kobila in Bulgarian is mare (not offensive). The offensive word for mare or horse, though, is kranta, which can be used also for a tall and/or large woman.


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## ahvalj

It is worth mentioning that the suffix _-ieta_ can't be ancient in Polish since the old _et_ became _iot_ (_letъ>lot_) and the old _ět_ became _iat_ (_lěto>lato_). So, indeed, like Wiktionary suggests, this form must have been restructured after foreign personal names (_Elżbieta _etc.). _Этимологический словарь славянских языков. Праславянский лексический фонд. Выпуск 10 (klepačь–konь) · 1983:_ 88–91 (http://etymolog.ruslang.ru/doc/essja10.pdf) mentions the parallel dialectal Polish form _kobita,_ which looks a better candidate for etymological analysis. Nevertheless, the word is confined to Polish and semantically unclear. The above dictionary compares it with deadjectival nouns in _-itъ/-ita/-ito, _e. g. _ulьjь _"hive" _→ ulita_ "snail" and thus tries to connect with _kobь_ (p. 101) "a kind of divination; augury; omen; doom", with the original use _*kobita žena_ "wilful woman".


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## Ben Jamin

In old Polish the word was spelled _kobiéta_ indicating pronunciation as /e/ ("high" e), which i dialects developed to /i/, but in standard Polish to /ɛ/.


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## ahvalj

But does Polish have inherited words with _iet_? From what I imagine about the Polish phonetic evolution, it shouldn’t.


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## Ben Jamin

ahvalj said:


> But does Polish have inherited words with _iet_? From what I imagine about the Polish phonetic evolution, it shouldn’t.


There are few native Polish words that contain "-iet, but I think they are quite late formations, like "podnieta" (incitament) from "podniecać" so I suppose that these don't count as inherited.


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## ilocas2

I was thinking about *konkubina* when this thread popped up.


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## Panceltic

To expand on my previous reply, *žena* in Slovenian usually means _wife_ (as in Polish), whereas _woman_ is *ženska*. There are some fossilized expressions where "žena" can mean "woman", e.g. _Dan žena_ (the day of the women, 8th March).


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## Ben Jamin

ilocas2 said:


> I was thinking about *konkubina* when this thread popped up.


No connection whatsoever.


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## ilocas2

Ben Jamin said:


> No connection whatsoever.



In Czech there is old word *kuběna* from *konkubína* and then there are only 2 steps to kobieta - u -> o, n -> t


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## ahvalj

I thought it might be a Lithuanian loan as the word itself looks very Lithuanian (e. g. _kupeta _"haymow"), but no, _Лаучюте ЮА · 1982 · Словарь балтизмов в славянских языках_ doesn't mention it…


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## Ben Jamin

ilocas2 said:


> In Czech there is old word *kuběna* from *konkubína* and then there are only 2 steps to kobieta - u -> o, n -> t


How old is this word?


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## Ben Jamin

ahvalj said:


> I thought it might be a Lithuanian loan as the word itself looks very Lithuanian (e. g. _kupeta _"haymow"), but no, _Лаучюте ЮА · 1982 · Словарь балтизмов в славянских языках_ doesn't mention it…


Beacuse nobody knows for sure, but a Lithuanian influence can't be excluded. Polish has for instance the first name Danuta, with a clear analogy to some Lithuanian first names.


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## ilocas2

Ben Jamin said:


> How old is this word?



I don't know. I have just some unspecified medieval feeling from this word.

---

I googled some sources where etymological link between kuběna and kobieta is discussed. For example here - Kobieta


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## ahvalj

ilocas2 said:


> I don't know. I have just some unspecified medieval feeling from this word.


_Machek V · 1957 · Etymologický slovník jazyka českého:_ 303 and _Rejzek J · 2001 · Český etymologický slovník:_ 319 both derive it from the Latin word.


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## ilocas2

ahvalj said:


> _Machek V · 1957 · Etymologický slovník jazyka českého:_ 303 and _Rejzek J · 2001 · Český etymologický slovník:_ 319 both derive it from the Latin word.



Yes, I wrote that it's from konkubína.


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## jasio

ahvalj said:


> I thought it might be a Lithuanian loan as the word itself looks very Lithuanian (e. g. _kupeta _"haymow"), but no, _Лаучюте ЮА · 1982 · Словарь балтизмов в славянских языках_ doesn't mention it…


Although this option cannot be entirely excluded, I would not personally bet on it. It's a paradox because of a Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, but socio-economical and demographic status of Lithuanian language was too low to significantly influence Polish language on a larger than a strictly regional scale. In fact, Grand Duchy of Lithuania was "Lithuanian" mainly by name, with  Lithuanian language used only regionally, and by rather uneducated people (nobles were very quickly rutenised by the Ruthenian majority and then polonised, and educated classes often used Latin anyway as a lingua franca).



ilocas2 said:


> I googled some sources where etymological link between kuběna and kobieta is discussed. For example here - Kobieta


In this interesting article, I would bet on an old-German hipothesis (because of long-lasting migrations to Poland, which eventual led to dominating Slavic population with German in the Western Poland and strong presence of German speaking city populations across the whole country) or a Latin one (because of fairly large populations speaking the language and its official status in Poland). Both suggest bed/sexual connotations, which would support originally derogatory meaning of the word. 

I've also found an article CEEOL - Article Detail, where a relationship with the stem referring the magical world is suggested (adjective: *kobitā žona ‘clairvoyant woman’). This also may explain a negative connotation (compare "wiedźma"). However, in the article it's also said "Even though around 30 different etymologies were created in the 20th century, the origins of that word have never been fully proven".


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## ahvalj

Yet, the Lithuanian _-eta_ forms nouns with pejorative meaning: _šemeta_ "fidget", _meleta_ "chatterer", _rauketa_ "sullen person". By the way, _kabeta_ "woman" exists as well, but as a Polish loan (Kas yra Kabeta? | Terminų žodynas). In proper Lithuanian words the root _kab-_ means "to hang; to hook; to hitch up" (e. g. _kabus_ "tenacious"; _kabintis ant kaklo_ "to fall on somebody's neck"; _kabeika_ "caviller"), so, speculating, we might imagine some _**kabeta_ as "who falls on somebody's neck" or "caviller" or any other such meaning.


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## Lorenc

The etymologies of the Polish words historically used for 'woman' (_żona_, _niewiasta_, _białogłowa_, _kobieta_) are discussed in the delightful, little known 60-year-old booklet written by Stanisław Westfal "The Polish language", which I warmly recommend to everyone; you can find it here: http://www.pau.krakow.pl/Antemurale/tomy/Antemurale_X_1966.pdf
The discussion of the word _kobieta_ is at pagg. 78-81 of the pdf. By the way, English wikitionary kobieta - Wiktionary says that _kobieta _was 'Considered derogatory until the 19th century'. This seems to be completely false, as Westfal reports that:

_Kobieta _was first recorded in the satires of Bielski written about 1566-1569.  It was disparaging them [sic]. [...]
it can be safely said that it did not take _kobieta _long to lose its originally light character.  Petrycy wrote in his translation of Aristotle (1605) that "_kobiety strojów niezwyczajnych nie mają wymyślić_", '_women ought not to invent extraordinary attires_'. J.C. Pasek, the sprightly Mazovian nobleman, said in his Memoirs (1656-88) about the widow who was to become his wife: "_Już też i żal było owej kobiety, widząc jej wielki affekt_", '_I pitied that woman when I saw her great affection_'.
The 18th century finally disposed of all lowly associations with _kobieta_. "_My rządzim światem, a nami kobiety_", '_We rule the world, and the women rule us_' - said the Prince-Bishop of Warmia, a writer whose language was both selective and fastidious. Another 18th century writer, Zabłocki, boasted in one of his comedies, written in 1781, that "_żyjąc w wielkim świecie, wie, jak się przymilić kobiecie_", '_living in the elegant world, he knows how to gain a woman's favours_'.

So it seems the derogatory character was lost (totally or in large measure) already by the mid-17th century. Westfal goes on discussing some tentative etymologies; as already mentioned in this thread, one possibility is that it's related to the old-Polish word _koba_ 'mare, female horse' (modern Polish -- as Russian -- _kobyła_).
Another hypothesis is that it's related to old-Polish _kob_ 'pigsty'. He mentions two other, theories: that it's a loan-word of Finnish origin (?) and that it's related to the (presumably, old Slavic roots) _kobi_ 'augurium' and _veta_ (to talk), so that 'kobieta' might have meant something alike 'witch, fortune teller'. 

He concludes on a romantic tone, perhaps exemplary of old-fashioned Polish gallantry: 

However, they have been beset by doubt ever since they took their scalpels to this enigmatic word; no one can claim to have reached a satisfactory conclusion.  Most probably they will never reach it, and _kobieta_ will remain the secret of the hoary past, a secret unsolved and insoluble, a really adequate word for the divine and inscrutable being it denotes.


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## Lorenc

Lorenc said:


> "_My rządzim światem, a nami kobiety_", '_We rule the world, and the women rule us_' - said the Prince-Bishop of Warmia, a writer whose language was both selective and fastidious.



BTW, the 'Prince-Bishop of Warmia' mentioned above is Ignacy Krasicki, and the quote above comes from his mock-heroic poem 'Myszeida' from 1775 (Ignacy Krasicki – Wikicytaty)


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## jasio

Lorenc said:


> _Kobieta _was first recorded in the satires of Bielski written about 1566-1569.  It was disparaging them [sic]. [...]
> it can be safely said that it did not take _kobieta _long to lose its originally light character.  Petrycy wrote in his translation of Aristotle (1605) that "_kobiety strojów niezwyczajnych nie mają wymyślić_", '_women ought not to invent extraordinary attires_'.


Whether it's long or not, is a matter of judgement. A period of 30-40 years between the two works is more than enough for a word to change the shade. When I was a teenager in 80s, the word "laska" referred to an extraordinary attractive young woman, while some 20 years later its meaning was closer to 'just a woman' - and there are some nuances depending on whether the word is used by a man or by a woman. In case of "_kobieta_", with a lack of mass media, specific shade might evolve independently in regions, social classes etc, leading to differences which might be preserved for decades, or even centuries. Antemurale mentions the word "białka" in context of this phenomenon, as still (in the sixties) being used in some rural dialects (p. 71 of the book or 79 of PDF), while it had been long forgotten in the other parts of Poland. My grandma pronounced "e pochylone" (as well as sounded "h" and dark 'l') until her death in 90s, although "e pochylone" theoretically disappeared from the language in 19th century.


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## ilocas2

*kokieta* - only 1 letter is different

kokieta - Słownik SJP


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## Teukor

ilocas2 said:


> *kokieta* - only 1 letter is different
> 
> kokieta - Słownik SJP


Right. In Slovak *koketa, *both languages borrowed the word from French *cocqet *which was ultimately derived from French *cocq *(Pol. kokot, Slk. kohút). You probably know what *kokot *means in Slovak.


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## rusita preciosa

Mod note: Please stick to the thread topic *kobieta *to avoid confusion. The discussion on* laska *is split into a separate thread


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