# Italian in Argentina



## panjabigator

How prevalent is the Italian language in Argentina?  I know many people who tell me that three or the granparents (or so) were Italian, but none of the parents learned that language.  They all learned Spanish.  

What percentage of the Rio de la Plata is Italian decendent?


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## diegodbs

Inmigración italiana en Argentina.


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## aleCcowaN

Me myself have six italian grand grand parents, but you realized it as my family name is ... Cowan  . Mi mother speaks very little Italian.

Italian inmigration was predominant from 1860 to 1900. In 1880 census Buenos Aires had 400000 inhabitants and 47% of them were born in Italy (mainly Northern Italy). From 1900 on Italian inmigration was decreasing (those days mainly Southern Italy) and in 1914 Spanish inmigration surpassed it. From 1930 to 1955 Italian inmigration was diminishing up to dissapear, but nowadays there are still about 600000 Italian born living in Argentina.

Argentinian population was about 46% Italian genetically in 1950, but differences in born rates and inmigration of Latin American countries plus a small emigration of white Argentinians have change this number to about 23% or 26% of our genetical heritage (all of this my educated guesses and number I remember partially, but enough to give you a general view)

We have a lot of Italian words in our slang, particularly Buenos Aires', and we undestand a few words and phrases in Italian as we can recognize and remember those that are close to the Spanish ones (no as many as you can imagine). Italian food is the very base of our daily meals. We don't like very much fatty meals as Italian cook established centuries before the cholesterol hysteria. Besides our mytological and folkloric barbacues, traditional pizza and pasta filled with meat, along with "milanesas" (Italian version of Wiener Schnitzel) with chips, spaghetti with all kind of sauses, stands as our dayly menu, along with many delitious meals from Spain and traditional stews of America.

I hope having illustrated the subject a little, I have to go as someone is pulling the door chime. It must be the pizza, fugazzetta and fainá  

AC


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## panjabigator

haha
do Argentinians (or is the term Argentines?) use the term "laborar" for "trabajar?"


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## norma 126

In my case my grandparents came here being a little children from Italy; two of them was born in Brazil but their parents were Italian, and my parents spoken Italian when they were children but then the custom was lost. My grandma by father was from Friuly region and spoken that dialect with her relatives when they had some meeting. 
I also wonder, why Italian language is not spoken, being such a lot of immigrants from that country in Argentina.


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## aleCcowaN

panjabigator said:
			
		

> haha
> do Argentinians (or is the term Argentines?) use the term "laborar" for "trabajar?"


Laborar is a Spanish word for plough, we use "laburar" meaning "to work". But "laburar" is slang.


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## Eugin

norma 126 said:
			
		

> I also wonder, why Italian language is not spoken, being such a lot of immigrants from that country in Argentina.


 
Very simple, norma.... Because this country was, first of all, conquered by Spain`s crown, and then, because our first governors were also Spaniards... with the Virreynato del Río de La Plata... remember now??  

(I am not too good at history, but I think the answer to your question has to be around that issue.... if I am not mistaken....)


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## Cnaeius

norma 126 said:
			
		

> I also wonder, why Italian language is not spoken, being such a lot of immigrants from that country in Argentina.


 

I am not an expert but I think one reason is quite clear. I read here that the most of italian immigration in Argentina occured between 1860 and 1900. In that period Italian language was not spread in Italy. It was at his very beginning, as official language. The most of the people spoke dialects, depending on the region they come from. And the dialects are many and different, so they couldn't convey "linguistic unity", in spite of the large percentage of immigrants. But surely there are also other reasons that I do not know.


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## aleCcowaN

Cnaeius said:
			
		

> I am not an expert but I think one reason is quite clear. I read here that the most of italian immigration in Argentina occured between 1860 and 1900. In that period Italian language was not spread in Italy. It was at his very beginning, as official language. The most of the people spoke dialects, depending on the region they come from. And the dialects are many and different, so they couldn't convey "linguistic unity", in spite of the large percentage of immigrants. But surely there are also other reasons that I do not know.


This is one valid reason. In that time, inmigrants came mainly from il Regno di Sardinia and the lands former belonging to Austria or under its influence, but I'm not saying that people from Regno di Napoli didn't come at all. In 1920' here it was often heard "lei parla la lingua" meaning "you speak vero italiano" (lingua toscana in boca romana).

In spite of these facts, the pampas accent, especially Buenos Aires' has clearly the rythm of Napolitan. And I remember having heard "cocoliche" as a child. "cocoliche" is Spanish spoken by foreigners with a funny accent and wrong words coming from "come dice?" which Italian inmigrants said constantly as they needed the locals repeating the sentences in Spanish in order they could manage to guess the meaning.

Ma é vero, noi non parliamo un catxo di italiano in l'Argentina, ma capishiamo un pó <-------- this is a sample of " 'vero' cocoliche"


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## montblanc

Hello,
I am Argentinian, part Italian (Toscana, Genova and Milano) and part French. I can understand Italian pretty well, but no, i haven't learnt it at home. I am very fond of it, though  and would love to take it seriously someday. My parents do know some italian slang, mostly phrases they have picked up as kids, they can repeat them and know what they mean but they wouldn't know how to write them. However, Italians did contribute to Argentinian language, most foreigners say our Spanish sounds like Italian. It even happens to me, ie zapping thru the channels, i think i heard  Argentinians talking, but nope, was an Italian program!


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## norma 126

He leído un artículo de una diario de Italia (La Republica de Italia)
donde dice que habitan 25 millones de italianos
en una población de 37 millones y que después de Italia
donde hay más italianos en el mundo es
en la Argentina, es esto verdad? se que somos muchos los 
descendientes de italianos pero no pensaba que tantos,quizás
alguien sepa, verdaderamente, si esto es así.


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## aleCcowaN

Seguramente de 39 millones de habitantes habremos entre 22 y 28 millones que tenemos entre el 1% y el 100% de ascendencia italiana.

Yo tengo 75% de ascendencia italiana y no me considero muy italiano, aunque le tenga mucho cariño a Italia. Personas con 50%, 37,5% o 25% de ascendencia italiana abundan por todo el país.

Muchas personas con piel trigueña, que no pasan por europeos, tiene cantidades de sangre italiana.

Pareciera que se habla de que la Argentina tendría que ser una pequeña Italia sólo porque tuvo una enorme aportación genética italiana.

Es muy simple: en la Argentina no existen los ghetos impuestos, sólo los voluntarios, y si ciertas comunidades religiosas protestantes o grupos del oriente asiático desean vivir sin vinculaciones con los demás, allá ellos, están en libertad. Pero un país donde la mayoría de los judíos festejan la Navidad en casa de sus amigos o parientes cristianos; donde los árabes y judios tienen cámaras de comercio conjuntas en ciertos pueblos; donde en un pueblo hay un barrio chino que se llama así porque décadas atrás vivió un zapatero de ese origen; un país donde los descendientes de eslovenos comen el locro y los gauchos prueban el apfel strudel, es un país donde las cosas se funden más tarde o más temprano en algo nuevo, y eso nuevo se llama "argentinos".


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## sound shift

In Argentina, "dale" means "come on". In Spain "dale" does not have this meaning, so I wonder if the Argentinian "dale" is of Italian origin. Does anyone know?


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## Eugin

In Italian "dale" is "_Dai_"..... probably it is related to it in some way.....

what do you think?


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## aleCcowaN

sound shift said:
			
		

> In Argentina, "dale" means "come on". In Spain "dale" does not have this meaning, so I wonder if the Argentinian "dale" is of Italian origin. Does anyone know?


Non lo so.

Sólo puedo decir que muchas expresiones de claro origen italiano como "¡Guarda!" y "¡Ufa!" van perdiendo fuerza progresivamente en la medida que no se realimentan con inmigración italiana y dada la baja tasa de natalidad en todos los sectores con alguna ascendencia italiana, de la misma forma que se come cada vez más pizza, pero cada vez menos risotto. Eso sí, el "piove! piove! governo ladro!" lo tenemos totalmente incorporado


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## Rayines

sound shift said:
			
		

> In Argentina, "dale" means "come on". In Spain "dale" does not have this meaning, so I wonder if the Argentinian "dale" is of Italian origin. Does anyone know?


Ya que lo mencionaste, ¿qué significa "¡Dale!" en España?, ¿o te refieres simplemente a la conjugación del verbo dar + el pronombre, como en "Dale un libro"?

(Ya sé que me voy de tema, no me lo contesten si no quieren, cualquier cosa abrimos un nuevo thread. Gracias)


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## panjabigator

Should this thread be moved to the Italian forum?


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## Eugin

The last part of it, probably.
The first part, I don´t think so, since it was started as a Cultural topic...

let´s wait for the moderators to decide....


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## cirrus

My experience of being in BA is that any amount of people will swear blind they are Italian and speak it fluently but when push comes to shove they can't say much more than "Ciao bello".


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## Eugin

Probably off topic, but....

TODAY, MORE THAN EVER, *ARGENTINA IS ANOTHER PROVINCE OF ITALY*!!!

* COMPLIMENTI*, *ITALIA*!!!


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## anthodocheio

sound shift said:
			
		

> In Argentina, "dale" means "come on". In Spain "dale" does not have this meaning, so I wonder if the Argentinian "dale" is of Italian origin. Does anyone know?


 
What about being dalle(pronounced like dale) which means _from the_ (desde el)? *Dalle-alle?*


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## sound shift

Anthodocheio,

At Argentinian football matches the crowd chants "Dale" + the first syllable of the name of the club: "Dale Ve" ("Come on Velez "), "Dale Bo" ("Come on Boca"), etc. I don't think that has anything to do with Italian "dalle".

The founders of Boca Juniors were immigrants from Genoa, and I have read that Boca crowds in the first decades of the last century used to shout "Daguele" (or "Daguelo" or similar; I can't remember exactly) followed by a player's name. If "daguele" (etc.) is Genoese, then there must be a chance that "dale" (which is a common expression in Argentina) is ultimately of Italian origin. No sé.


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## anthodocheio

Entonces dale *no es* _Italian in Argentina._ Es darle. I believe I understand the meaning, we say the same in Greek.

Gracias   sound shift


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## sound shift

I don't know if it is anything to do with the Spanish verb "dar". I suspect not, because my Argentinian e-friends have told me that the "le" in "dale" (I assure you it is written that way, without an "r") cannot be analysed in isolation from the "da"; "dale" is indivisible and means "come on".


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## Eugin

sound shift said:
			
		

> I don't know if it is anything to do with the Spanish verb "dar". I suspect not, because my Argentinian e-friends have told me that the "le" in "dale" (I assure you it is written that way, without an "r") cannot be analysed in isolation from the "da"; "dale" is indivisible and means "come on".


here I copy a link, from the Italian-English forum, where you can see where "dai" comes from and its relation to "come on"

Cheers


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## cirrus

En lengua cotidiana en Medellín, Colombia también se dice dale.  Que yo sepa la capital paisa nunca tuvo una ola de inmigración italiana.


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## sound shift

In that case, "dale" is probably not of Italian origin. But "pibe", a common Argentinian word, definitely is. It comes from the Genoese "pive" and means "child".


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## aleCcowaN

Quiero aclarar que la influencia del italiano es fuerte en el argot de Buenos Aires, el lunfardo, y en el habla coloquial de la región pampeana.

Con respecto a "pibe" que todavía se usa en Buenos Aires, es sustituida total o parcialmente en toda la Argentina por la palabra "chango" o "changuito/a". El lenguaje de las grandes ciudades del Plata y su llanura circundante es hablado por la mitad de la población de la Argentina, y en él hay muchas palabras y giros coloquiales con evidente influencia del italiano. Pero quede claro que no se trata del "castellano de la Argentina" sino de una variedad del mismo, y si esas mismas palabras o giros se usan en otras partes del país es por fuerte influencia de esta región, pero ese uso no es tan habitual, porque esos coloquialismos se entienden pero no necesariamente se usan.

Con respecto al tema de este hilo, debe quedar en claro que el aporte humano y cultural de Italia en la Argentina ha sido muy importante y conserva parte de su importancia, pero *no ha sido ni es uniforme en todo el país*. La natural evolución e integración de la sociedad nacional va haciendo lentamente que estos aportes sean suavizados o eliminados de nuestra cultura. La Argentina tiene regiones mas "italianizadas" que otras, y la Ciudad de Buenos Aires es una de ellas. Pero Buenos Aires no es "la" Argentina, y aunque muy influyente, sólo es una parte.

Si aquí hablamos de Buenos Aires (una región de 5000 kilómetros cuadrados) y del Interior del País (los casi tres millones de kilómetros cuadrados restantes) es por vergonzantes restos de viejas estructuras mentales y económicas. La Argentina no tiene un "Interior" que abarque el 99,9% del país, y es más que errado usar esa palabra horrible, que sugiere la idea de que el país tiene partes donde la gente está en paños menores.

Los extranjeros que visitan Buenos Aires, se quedan impresionados por su boato venido a menos, y la evidencia de que ha sido una de las ciudades más pobladas del mundo a lo largo de más de un siglo. Pero extienden su percepción de Buenos Aires a todo el país, y eso es muy errado. Cualquiera que visite o estudie la Argentina se admirará de su variedad de paisajes, gentes y culturas. Buenos Aires con su arquitectura afrancesada y sus giros italianizantes podrá ser la joya de la corona, pero no la corona, y mucho menos el reino.


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## cirrus

aleCcowaN said:
			
		

> Quiero aclarar que la influencia del italiano es fuerte en el argot de Buenos Aires, el lunfardo, y en el habla coloquial de la región pampeana.
> 
> Buenos Aires con su arquitectura afrancesada y sus giros italianizantes podrá ser la joya de la corona, pero no la corona, y mucho menos el reino.


De acuerdo Alec - basta la comparación de Jujuy con la zona metropolitana - el contraste llega a proporciones gigantescas.


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