# Is it possible/ok to share your surname with a dictator or any other very infamous personality?



## Sidjanga

Hi all,

In Germany, after WW II, if you happened to have it too, it had become obviously impossible to go on carrying the surname "Hitler"; so everybody "affected" by this lot changed it, and nowadays there is not a single "Hitler" left.(**)

Nevertheless, the other day, succumbing to a sudden curiosity, I took a look at the Berlin telephone directory to see if there were anyone still sharing surnames with Hitler's very infamous henchmen Göring, Goebbels and Himmler, the ones who actually put into practice all those outrages atrocities and without whom Hitler probably would not have been more than a feable shadow of the horrible dictator he came to be through their help.
I was very surprised, incredulous and almost shocked when I found indeed, not very many, but still a few entries for each of these three surnames. 

Who wants to have these surnames?

There are basically two main *problems *about sharing a surname with a (very) negatively laden personality:
you might be taken for a sympathiser or for more or less close family, you be it or not (just judging by the obvious fact that you at least didn't find it necessary or really desirable to change your surname)
Psychology/the subconscious will always be more powerful than the parts of our minds we are able to control (more or less) rationally or making use of common sense; so, it will be impossible to avoid that people you deal with and who don't know you a little better will always have associations of any kind that are to do with your infamous surname-mate.
Thus, if your surname was _Hitler_, many/most people would probably feel _very _awkward and uncomfortable (or even keen to run..) when having to do with you, never mind how many times they would tell themselves "It's just a name and it obviously isn't really "him", take it easy".

And if someone finally *decides *to change or not his surname that has become so unlucky, will certainly depend on *various factors*, among these
how horrible or impacting was/is the infamous surname-mate in question
how many people (in the region) share this surname / how frequent is it:
If there are many thousands or even millions with this surname, it will be so much part of everyday's life that, at hearing or reading it, it will be rather unlikely to provoke you thoughts of any kind of a possible dictator or whatever other personality who might have carried it, too, however horrible he might have been.

 So, what about yourself, *your region/country*?
What is normal, acceptable, expected in this respect?
Have people changed their surnames who happened to share them with past (or present) dictators or their infamous henchmen, or with any other comparable negatively laden personality?
Would you expect people to change their surnames in similar circumstances? Would you yourself change it, or at least think of doing so? Why (not)?
Would you find it very strange/suspicious/awkward/… if, in whatever situation, you met someone who hadn't changed their (not frequent) surname they share with a present or historical personality of your or another country laden with negative/terrible memories or associations?
Saludos

____________________
** at least not in Germany, and well, never say never, but still…; in certain forums, though, there are said to be members who actually chose this nick…., but I guess that's a different topic.


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## Mahaodeh

In Arabic there is no "surname" per se, however, there is long set of names that you get in addition to your first name when you are born.  If you want to know more about Arabic names check this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_names

The following is based on my knowledge of the eastern parts of the Arab world, mostly Iraq, Jordan and the Gulf states.  But as a wild guess, it probably applies to most.




Sigianga said:


> what is normal, acceptable, expected in this respect?




Everyone keeps his own name, that is the normal and acceptable thing.  You do not even feel insulted if anyone asked you "what's your relationship to Hitler?" and generally you would not feel embarrassed to say "oh, he's/was my first cousin".




Sigianga said:


> Have people changed their surnames who happened to share them with past (or present) dictators or their infamous henchmen, or with any other comparable negatively laden personality?




Not that I know of; a clear example would be Usama Binladen, the Binladens didn't change their name and no one expects them to.




Sigianga said:


> Would you expect people to change their surnames in similar circumstances? Would you yourself change it, or at least think of doing so? Why (not)?




No, I do not expect people to do so.  I would neither change my name nor even think of it.  The reasons are:

1. Names are not the sole property of a single person no matter how famous he is: if his name happens to be like yours that does not mean you believe in him or what he is doing/did.

2. Changing your family name means you are giving yourself a false identity, it makes people think that it is YOU who has done something wrong because it is YOU who is hiding.

3. The nice thing about Arabic names is that you can actually choose what you want to be called by; the names are sooooo long and although in your birth certificate you will have most of it listed, in every other document you only use a few.  Hence people really do not need to change their names at all; they use another one of their names. 

4. Up to my understanding, it's illegal to change your name (other than the first name/given name) in most Arab countries.




Sigianga said:


> Would you find it very strange/suspicious/awkward/… if, in whatever situation, you met someone who hadn't changed their (not frequent) surname they share with a present or historical personality of your or another country laden with negative/terrible memories or associations?




No, I would neither find it strange nor suspicious nor awkward.  Actually I have met someone like that (no, not a binladen), the figure was historical in Iraq and a brutal dictator (not saddam either) and branded a traitor, plus, the name was not too common (Hussain is very common) so when he mentioned his name the first reaction from me was "really YYY? are you related to XXX YYY?".  No one was offended and, as it turned out, he _was_ related.


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## Outsider

The name Salazar is not unheard of in contemporary Portuguese. Although it's rare, there's at least one well-known person who bears it, the fashion designer Ana Salazar. I don't really know if she's related to the other Salazar. He never had any children.



Sigianga said:


> Would you find it very strange/suspicious/awkward/… if, in whatever situation, you met someone who hadn't changed their (not frequent) surname they share with a present or historical personality of your or another country laden with negative/terrible memories or associations?


In general, no. I don't believe in original sin. Each individual is a new individual.

I suppose "Hitler" is a special case, though.


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## Etcetera

Sigianga said:


> What is normal, acceptable, expected in this respect?


It depends on the surname, I believe. If the surname is common, it's OK. Headmistress of my school bore the surname Ezhova - just as the infamous henchman of the 1930s - and everyone felt OK about that. 

I can remember at least two famous persons who were related to dictarors and their henchmen: the first is Svetlana Alliluyeva, Stalin-s daughter, who changed her surname to her mother's. But the son of Lavrenty Beria, Sergo, kept his father's surname.



> Have people changed their surnames who happened to share them with past (or present) dictators or their infamous henchmen, or with any other comparable negatively laden personality?


I know no people who share their surnames with such persons, except for my school headmistresss (see above). By the way, her maiden name was Batmanova - she became Ezhova when she got married.



> Would you expect people to change their surnames in similar circumstances? Would you yourself change it, or at least think of doing so? Why (not)?


Again, it depends. If the surname is common, why bother. But if it's unique... Well, the first question I would ask would be why my parents/grandparents preferred to keep it. Maybe there was some reason not to do it.



> Would you find it very strange/suspicious/awkward/… if, in whatever situation, you met someone who hadn't changed their (not frequent) surname they share with a present or historical personality of your or another country laden with negative/terrible memories or associations?


I would certainly feel somewhat uneasy to address a person who share their surname with Stalin or Lenin, for instance. Luckily, we in Russia rarely use surnames when addressing people. 

As for the question "Why hasn't he/she change such an infamous surname?" - I don't think I would linger on it. Everyone has the right not to do something.


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## sound shift

Goebbels is quite a common surname in the Dutch Province of Limburg. It does not seem to be an impediment there. It is also found over the border in the German Land of North Rhine-Westphalia (sometimes with the spelling Göbbels). Clearly, a lot of people have decided not to get rid of it.


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## alexacohen

> What is normal, acceptable, expected in this respect?


Whatever the person who bears the surname decides. One workmate of mine bears the surname of our latest dictator, Franco. No one thinks it suspicious, but I admit he does get a lot of teasing.


> Would you expect people to change their surnames in similar circumstances? Would you yourself change it, or at least think of doing so? Why (not)?



Some people would change it, and some others wouldn't. If my parents had named me Vladimira Ilich I would certainly change my name fast at lighting. That would be after disowning my parents!


> Would you find it very strange/suspicious/awkward/… if, in whatever situation, you met someone who hadn't changed their (not frequent) surname they share with a present or historical personality of your or another country laden with negative/terrible memories or associations?


No, I wouldn't. Except if I ever met a Hitler, maybe. Even so, if I met someone named Edmund Hitler I would think "poor guy, he must have gone through hell at school".
I would only start to find it very suspicious indeed if his parents had decided to name him "Adolf".


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## Macunaíma

Hitler himself wasn't a real Hitler since the surname was adopted by his father Alois from his stepfather.
I know that there is a numerous Hudler family in the south of Brazil. I read about it in a magazine, and it mentioned that the name was one of the variants of the name Hitler. Funnily enough, the Brazilian Hudlers live in a neighbouring town, just a few kilometers away, from the Brazilian Wojtylas, akin to the late Pope John Paul II.


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## K-Milla

I'm not sure, but I think that in Mexico we don't have that sort of problem/issue/situation. At least, I don't know someone in that "_shoes_"


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## Miguelillo 87

K-Milla said:


> I'm not sure, but I think that in Mexico we don't have that sort of problem/issue/situation. At least, I don't know someone in that "_shoes_"


Yes I agree eventhought we have despreciable personalities, politicians the most part of them, as Salinas, Echeverría etc; We know it's just a surname and this person it's not the same as the guy who steal, kill and lie us. 

But maybe that's because we haven`t had a person as Hitler who made so much damage to entire countries. 

For example my last name is Calderón as the actual president of my country, and as he didn't arrive to the presidency in a very "democratic and fair" way (some persons feel that in Mexico) as one of my teachers does; sometimes they joke with you and tell you "You're the same as the FECAL" Or thinks like that, but as a joke and they know I'm not even a far kin of the president.


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## Hakro

Maybe this is a bit off topic, but I've read that especially in Italy, after WWII, many communist parents gave their sons first names Stalin or Lenin. Later these poor kids had to change their names. 

Can anybody from Italy confirm this?

From Finland I can't recall any problems about "infamous surnames" exept the Russian names of the refugees who came to Finland during and after the Russian revolution, and the Russian families who had lived here already before the revolution. Many of them chose a new name that sounded Finnish, as the Russians and the Soviet Union were not very highly appreciated, rather hated, in Finland those days.


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## alexacohen

Hello Hakro,

There is at least a couple of Spanish parents, quite well known sometime ago, who named his son Vladimiro Ilich ¿González? to honour Lenin. 

The name, in Spanish, sounds utterly ridiculous and pretentious.


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## Zsanna

I like the attitude that Mahaodeh put through, it seems to me "healthy" apart from being very sensible. 
Unfortunately, however, I think I would suffer from having such a name to the extent of wanting to change it surely. I can imagine that such would be the reaction of most Hungarians. (Especially my generation and older.)

I think the reason for that is that I was brought up in a society where others' (and society's) opinion counted a lot, i.e. a lot more than one's individual opinion. 
For the individual it meant a lot of stress even if there was some sort of a protection provided by society at the same time. (Hereby the everlasting debate about "which type of society is better" - which is not our topic here, _Dieu merci!_)

In other words, I think the question is very good because it points out that our reaction does not depend on mainly what we'd find (personally) "good" but mostly what society taught us or expect from us...


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## sokol

Macunaíma said:


> Hitler himself wasn't a real Hitler since the surname was adopted by his father Alois from his stepfather.
> I know that there is a numerous Hudler family in the south of Brazil. I read about it in a magazine, and it mentioned that the name was one of the variants of the name Hitler.


The name 'Hitler' once was quite common here in Austria (after all it's here that Hitler was born) and it came in many varieties (and essentially, I think, meant 'hat maker') like 'Hiatler', 'Hütler', 'Hirtler' and others.
In Austria, I think, there is not a single Hitler left, and if not all of them had their name changed then at least most had. However, there still are some 'Hirtler's' etc. around: as they differ in writing the stigma of the name wasn't so obvious.
(The original name of 'Hitler' was 'Schicklgruber', and there still are lots of 'Schicklegruber's' here in Austria  as you mentioned his name was adopted only later; just imagine how it would have sounded saying 'Heil Schicklgruber' - and sorry for this very, very old joke, it was already told during Hitler's regime, you know.)

By the way, there just was a TV documentation on Hitler's family in German TV: the original written form of 'Hitler' was 'Hiedler' (when his father assumed the name it was changed to 'Hitler'). See also Wiki for etymology (I still favour 'hatmaker' but 'Kleinhäusler too is a good try = one who lives in a hut' = farmer with only three or for cows or alternatively a few sheep, 'small' farmer).



sound shift said:


> Goebbels is quite a common surname in the Dutch Province of Limburg. It does not seem to be an impediment there. It is also found over the border in the German Land of North Rhine-Westphalia (sometimes with the spelling Göbbels). Clearly, a lot of people have decided not to get rid of it.


With other popular*) well-known Nazis the stigma of the name wasn't as obvious, and anyway only a Goebbels living in an area where he is the only one Goebbels he would stick out - not if he would live in an area where there's a Goebbels in almost every street.

*) it's obviously 'well-known' that I meant here and not popular, sorry for this error due to interference of my mother tongue, and thanks to Sigianga


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## IxOhOxI

> Have people changed their surnames who happened to share them with past (or present) dictators or their infamous henchmen, or with any other comparable negatively laden personality?


If one by chance shares the same surname with the wanted criminal, then I suppose he would definitely change his surname to something else on account that I do not think he could possibly live in the social society due to such the infamous surname was bringing him to the public attention. As the matter of fact, that person wasn't even related to the henchman himself but this isn't the point, everyone would generalize him with the henchman anyway.​ 



> Would you expect people to change their surnames in similar circumstances? Would you yourself change it, or at least think of doing so? Why (not)?


Yes, I assumed so. I would change it for sure, because I would have had some kind of uncomfortable feeling if I were happen to be named after the infamous one. I believe, some folks might find me suspicious and I always hated it when I was found doubting. It's like anyone would imagine, oh so you've been conspired with that criminal or you are the criminal's relative! Wow that's horrible! Actually, I have an elder friend and I've known him quite a long time. I found out that his name originally was Hitler, but then he changed it to the new name. Anyway, I didn't bother to question him whys but I kinda understood the reason that he never mentioned about his old name. However, in my point of view, I think it's hella better not to bear the surname like the henchman's or whoever the dangerous criminal's. Btw, teasing could occur as well.​ 



> Would you find it very strange/suspicious/awkward/… if, in whatever situation, you met someone who hadn't changed their (not frequent) surname they share with a present or historical personality of your or another country laden with negative/terrible memories or associations?


Of course, it would be very odd.​ 
I think that having the same surname with someone who commits very severe crime in my country would be more or less unacceptable but then there are exceptions that only if the surname is very common used and antique.​


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## alexandro

Here in Italy the surname "Mussolini" (the dictator and prime minister of Italy during WW II) is common and his descendants didn't change it at all (maybe some did...), a granddaughter of his is actually in politics. If my surname were Mussolini...I wouldn't change it, if it were Hitler, Pinochet, Stalin, Lenin, Kim Il Sung, Jong Il, Sar (Pol Pot) and others I'd do it for sure.

For Hakro: I've never heard about that but no wonder it could be possible!!!


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## Dr. Quizá

A bunch of ministers of the previous Spanish goverment are children and relatives to former Franco's ministers and other high-ranking government officials, so guess about the importance that people give to sharing a surname with one of these guys.

I know a pair of Franciscos Francos, being Franco not a rare surname and Francisco an extremely common name. I also know an Ilich, although he's half-French.


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## alexacohen

I've just remembered a case, several years ago. 
The crime was really hideous, and one of the killers escaped and was never found.

He had quite an unusual surname, and his family had to change it because they were unable to find jobs anywhere; their future employers read the surname, made the connection and refused point blank to employ any relative of so infamous a character.

So there are names that the Spanish people think unacceptable.


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## danielfranco

My middle name is STALINslao.

No, it's not true. But my last name goes unremarked in Mexico. I wonder if it would have been different had I been Spanish...

Hmm
[wonders...]

D. Franco


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## cuchuflete

danielfranco said:


> But my last name goes unremarked in Mexico. I wonder if it would have been different had I been Spanish...
> 
> Hmm
> [wonders...]
> 
> D. Franco



As Dr. Quizá said just a few posts back...



> I know a pair of Franciscos Francos, being Franco not a rare surname and Francisco an extremely common name.


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## danielfranco

Ah, well, there you go. Perhaps the only examples of this that I've seen in person are people that share the same name with someone famous, or infamous, depending on the case. Usually, around these here parts, the person in question always tires of repeating the same disclaimer every time he's introduced. For example: "I'm Michael Jackson..._* erm, no relation!*_"

D


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## sokol

You know what, Daniel Franco?

Even though in Spain your name very likely would go unnoticed this *might not* be the case here in Austria.
The explanation is simple: we Austrians just don't know that "Franco" is a very common Spanish name. If we see the name "Franco" (well - obviously only the ones who do remember _some _history lections from their school years) it is rather obvious for us to connect this name with the Spanish dictator.


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## Jaén

K-Milla said:


> I'm not sure, but I think that in Mexico we don't have that sort of problem/issue/situation. At least, I don't know someone in that "_shoes_"


I think this is because people considered really infamous in Mexican history (in fact, I only remember Huerta, Santanna, Díaz... who else? All of them from the XIX century) they had very common surnames, so, noone would expect that any Santanna you happen to met is kin from that considered traitor to the country.

The most recent infamous people (all of them politicians on active or former presidents of the country) have also very common surnames (Salinas - excepting "de Gortari" -, Echeverría, Álvarez, López, Portillo...).

As Miguelillo said, maybe because there is no any really evil person in our (recent or far) history, as a Hitler, in such case, as many others here, I wouldn't expect them to change their surname. At the most, I would feel pity for them.


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## PABLO DE SOTO

I have just read the Spanish law about surnames, and there is no mention about the possibility of changing one's surname for the mere reason of sharing it with someone else, dictator or not.


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## Black Sheep

I see in the German telephone directory there are a few women called Eva Braun (the notorious mistress of Hitler, and his wife during the last few hours of his life).

I presume they are leading normal lives.

I can't say I would be happy with such a name.


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## Black Sheep

PABLO DE SOTO said:


> I have just read the Spanish law about surnames, and there is no mention about the possibility of changing one's surname for the mere reason of sharing it with someone else, dictator or not.


 
In the UK anyone can change their Christian and surname simply by telling their aquaintances that this is how they would like to be known in future.

To make it official you need to go through the process of changing your name by Deed Poll. I don't think there are any restrictions on this.


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