# Open sesame



## .   1

G'day Arabic@s,
I have a silly little question about the cartoon saying, "Open sesame!"

_*Oh, I forgot to add that. "iftaH" just means open, "simsim" means sesame, and "ya" is just a vocative particle used when directly addressing someone (or in this case something), like the English "Oh" -- "Open, Oh sesame."*_

This is confusing to me and I do not want to folderol the thread in the Cultural forum that this is taken from.

What do you hear in Arabic when I say the sounds, "Open sesame."

I have always thought that this was just a cute twist on the English, "Open Says (a) Me" because it is always associated with opening a door or a lock or some magic trick but I have been led to beleive that it may be a straight lift from Arabic.

Does anybody have any idea of what I am clumsily trying to ask?

.,,


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## Abu Rashid

Sounds like Strine to me.

This saying does come directly from Arabic I think.


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## cherine

Welcome to the Arabic forum 


. said:


> G'day Arabic@s,
> I have a silly little question about the cartoon saying, "Open sesame!"
> 
> _*Oh, I forgot to add that. "iftaH" just means open, "simsim" means sesame, and "ya" is just a vocative particle used when directly addressing someone (or in this case something), like the English "Oh" -- "Open, Oh sesame."*_
> 
> What do you hear in Arabic when I say the sounds, "Open sesame."


If you mean how it sounds, go here, choose (Arabic) and paste the sentence in Arabic افتح يا سمسم . (I'm sorry if the first word is not very clearly pronounced  )

If you mean the expression itself (iftaH ya simsim) it's a very famous sentence found in one of the Arabian Nights stories (Ali Baba and the 40 thieves); where the chief of the thieves say "IftaH ya simsim" and then a door in the mountain open, and the thieves inter inside the cave.
The "cave of Ali Baba" is a famous expression in Arabic litterature, and even in daily usage in many Arab countries, denoting a place where lots of money, jewls, and/or wealth... is hidden.
When someone finds a treasure, we say "he found the cave of Ali Baba".


> I have always thought that this was just a cute twist on the English, "Open Says (a) Me" because it is always associated with opening a door or a lock or some magic trick but I have been led to beleive that it may be a straight lift from Arabic.


The sentence is Arabic, and it's the first time I hear this hypothesis. Simsim is the Arabic word for "sesame". We don't really know why the thief calls simsim and not another name  There's even a hypothesis that says that simsim is the name of another thief who used to wait for the others inside the cave and when they call his name he opens the cave's door from the inside for them 


> Does anybody have any idea of what I am clumsily trying to ask?


I hope I understood your question. If not, please try to elaborate more.


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## Nunty

Iftah ya simsim is the real Arabic phrase for what is "translated" (in the same story, Cherine) as "Open sesame." I've always understood the English phrase the way the Lord of Punctuation explains it.


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## .   1

G'day Cherine,
The link doesn't work for me but that is not my question.
I am interested in what an Arabic person hears when I say, "Open sesame"
Is there a word in Arabic that sounds like "open" and if so what does it mean?
What does that mean when combined with sesame.

I remember an old poem about an apple or pommegranet being considered to be a jewel box or a container of treasure.

Does the sesame have some iconic significance in Arabic culture?

.,,


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## Abu Rashid

> Is there a word in Arabic that sounds like "open" and if so what does it mean?


The sound "p" doesn't even exist in Arabic so I doubt it.

I think what Cherine's trying to tell you is this expression has existed in Arabic for about 1000 years, back when the English language probably didn't even know the words "open" nor "sesame" in the form it does today.

This is an entry from the online etymology dictionary:



> First as a magic password in 1785 translation of Galland's "Mille et une nuits," where it opens the door of the thieves' den in "Ali Baba and the Forty Thieves." Phrase open sesame current since about 1826.



I think the play on the sounds that you've made is just a co-incidence. I'm a native speaker of Australian English also and have never made such a connection.


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## .   1

Abu Rashid said:


> I think the play on the sounds that you've made is just a co-incidence. I'm a native speaker of Australian English also and have never made such a connection.


Did you ever watch Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck?
Chuck Jones had a ball with the wordplay.
Open seza me.
There have been so many jokes depicting the stereotypical Italian accent playing with this word grouping.
It is difficult for me to think that such a sound coincidence is purely coincidental.

.,,


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## Whodunit

. said:


> I am interested in what an Arabic person hears when I say, "Open sesame"
> Is there a word in Arabic that sounds like "open" and if so what does it mean?


 
Such words are impossible in Arabic:

Arabic doesn't have the "p" sound nor a real "o" vowel
The combination أوب [uub-] at the beginning is only present in some forms of آب [aaba] (to come back) and English borrowings such as أوبرا [oopiraa (actually: uub(i)raa)]
To my knowledge, the combinations سز (siz-) and سيز (siiz-) at the beginning do not appear in MSA.
I think Arabs who understand English, will understand that the expression is English (I don't say they understand its meaning). German, for example, has its own version for it and uses a literal translation of "sesame" (سمسم) as well: "Sesame, öffne dich!" ([Oh] Sesame, open!)


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## Nunty

Thing is, iftah means "open!", and that is why I said it's a sort-of kind-of "translation". Back when 1001 Nights was translated, it would not have worked to transliterate the Arabic phrase, so he made a literal translation. Since then, of course, the understanding of it has been corrupted to what Dot and Commas and I hear.


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## cherine

. said:


> G'day Cherine,
> The link doesn't work for me but that is not my question.
> I am interested in what an Arabic person hears when I say, "Open sesame"
> Is there a word in Arabic that sounds like "open" and if so what does it mean?
> What does that mean when combined with sesame.


I'm sorry about the link. But now if I understood you correctly then it doesn't matter, because you're not looking for the Arabic sentence (iftaH ya simsim) but for the Arabic perception of the English sentence "open sesame".
In this case, I'd say: No.
An Arab who doesn't know any English won't understand the meaning of the sentence, nor would the sentence sound any familiar to him/her.
"Open sesame" doesn't sound similar to any Arabic expression. So all the sound coincidence you think about won't work here, even if they work with Italian (as I believe I understood from your last post).
As Whodunit said: we don't have the letter "p" (only b) and we don't pronounce the vowels the same way; so it would be hard to imagine a sound similarity between the two languages in this sentence.


> Does the sesame have some iconic significance in Arabic culture?


Not that I know of.
The word simsim (sesame) was just a name in the story of Ali Baba, that some people tried to interpret differently. Some said it's the name of a thief hiding inside the cave, other said it's a genie  But we don't know for sure.


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## elroy

Maybe it's because I'm a native speaker of Arabic, but it never occurred to me that "sesame" had anything to do with "says (a) me" - I always understood it as a translation of the Arabic sentence.

I agree with the others that the similarity between "sesame" and "says a me" is purely coincidental.  I don't have a hard time with this since it's not exactly uncommon for English speakers to play on words like there's no tomorrow.


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## Arrius

Of course, the phrase "iftaH ya simsim" (Open, Sesame/ ouvre-toi, sésame) comes from the alf layla wa layla ( A Thousand and One Nights"). The popular and erroneous etymology based on the American English phrase "Open sez me!" derives from an early Popeye the Sailorman cartoon, now possibly 60 years old but still shown on TV to this day.
The "sez me" is meant to indicate the rough, uneducated way in which the old salt,Popeye, always talks.
In this opuscule, already in technicolor and much better made than later efforts, Popeye plays the part of Sindbad the Sailor (sindebad albaHrii) actually taken from another of the tales, and his regular arch-enemy Bluto, plays the burly,villainous and scimitar-wielding robber chief Kassim. These two rival protagonists fight furiously over the treasure of the cave and the favours of the fair Olive Oil, a veiled lady dressed harem-fashion. There is an excellent song sung by Bluto in basso profundo. Popeye naturally wins out and manages even to roast the Roc, a monstrous bird from the Sindbad story, over an active volcano. Don't miss it!


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## .   1

Thanks Arrius,
That very cartoon is the basis for my confusion.

Elroy,
Yep,
You're dead right.
I'm probably one of the most active exponents of this fascinating sport.

Cherine,
How fascinating that I totally missed you again.
My language is far too imprecise.
The stereotypical Italian accent I was talking about was the stereotypical Italian English wherea everya worda isa endeda witha a 'a' sound.
There is a famous song around these parts.
It is a parody of ignorant Australians from the 1950s viewed through the eyes of an Italian immigrant to Australia that playsa ona thisa.

http://www.lyricsandsongs.com/song/321045.html

That the Italian immigrant singing is a fully fledged Englishman just adds poetry to the whole piece.  The song still crops up and just about every Aussie of my age knows the song off by heart.
It'sa rippa.

Nun Translator
I suspect that you are right but you are often a prime suspect for that.

Whodunnit,
I thought as much.
I was just trying to clarify a confusing response I had received in the English forums.

Abu Rashid
You are right.  Coincidences abound in English.  This looks like one.

My thanks to all.
May your god go with you gently.

Robert


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## Abu Rashid

> That the Italian immigrant singing is a fully fledged Englishman just adds poetry to the whole piece. The song still crops up and just about every Aussie of my age knows the song off by heart



That would have to be 'shaddapya face' right?


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## .   1

Abu Rashid said:


> That would have to be 'shaddapya face' right?


Close.
Shut upa you face.

.,,


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## Josh_

Arrius said:


> Of course, the phrase "iftaH ya simsim" (Open, Sesame/ ouvre-toi, sésame) comes from the alf layla wa layla ( A Thousand and One Nights"). The popular and erroneous etymology based on the American English phrase "Open sez me!" derives from an early Popeye the Sailorman cartoon, now possibly 60 years old but still shown on TV to this day.
> The "sez me" is meant to indicate the rough, uneducated way in which the old salt,Popeye, always talks.
> In this opuscule, already in technicolor and much better made than later efforts, Popeye plays the part of Sindbad the Sailor (sindebad albaHrii) actually taken from another of the tales, and his regular arch-enemy Bluto, plays the burly,villainous and scimitar-wielding robber chief Kassim. These two rival protagonists fight furiously over the treasure of the cave and the favours of the fair Olive Oil, a veiled lady dressed harem-fashion. There is an excellent song sung by Bluto in basso profundo. Popeye naturally wins out and manages even to roast the Roc, a monstrous bird from the Sindbad story, over an active volcano. Don't miss it!


Yes, I have seen and enjoyed that cartoon many times.  As for the "open says me" deriving specifically from that cartoon though, I don't know if we can be so sure of that.  

As an aside, the name of the giant mythical bird, Roc, actually derives from Arabic --  رخّ rukhkh.  I would not have known that had I not read portions of Ibn Battutah's Travels in which he relates a story of some sailors supposedly seeing the "foul fowl" (for those who love play-on-words).



> When someone finds a treasure, we say "he found the cave of Ali Baba".


How would that be said in Egyptian, ya Cherine?  la2a ghaar/maghaarit 3ali baba?  or something else?


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## Abu Rashid

> Close.
> Shut upa you face.



Well I was just transliterating it the way it's pronounced. I mean that's the song you're referring to.


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## Arrius

Josh Adkins: "Yes, I have seen and enjoyed that cartoon many times. As for the "open says me" deriving specifically from that cartoon though, I don't know if we can be so sure of that. 

As an aside, the name of the giant mythical bird, Roc, actually derives from Arabic -- رخّ rukhkh."

If the cartoon is not the only origin of this erroneous etymology, at least it has served to perpetuate and spread it world-wide for well over half a century.

/rukhkh/ is also the normal word for the tower-shaped chess piece known by the cognate term "rook" (or castle) in English. But I can see no connexion between the monstrous bird and the game. The English bird "rook", a black bird of the Corvidae family, presumably has no etymological connexion with its over-sized oriental cousin.
(I fear that as a computer semi-literate I have not yet mastered the technique of quoting sections of past postings so that they include the coloured background. A private message or e-mail from some kind person with a few tips on the subject would be much appreciated).


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## cherine

Josh Adkins said:


> How would that be said in Egyptian, ya Cherine? la2a ghaar/maghaarit 3ali baba? or something else?


We would say "la2a maghaaret 3ali baba" (he found Ali Baba's cave); la2eet maghaaret 3ali baba (I/you found Ali Baba's cave).

In fuS7a, we say: wajada/iktashafa maghaarata 3ali Baba وجد/اكتشف مغارة علي بابا


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## Abu Talha

I have a question about the command ٱفْتَحْ يا سمسم!

Since فَتَحَ يَفْتَحُ is a transitive verb, i.e., it means "he opened something", not "he/it was opened", doesn't the above command mean that the speaker is telling "Simsim" to open something, not that Simsim should open itself?

For this latter meaning, wouldn't you have to say, ٱنْفَتِحْ يا سمسم! or ٱفْتَحْ نفسَك يا سمسم! ?


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## cherine

You guessed right.  Open yourself is انْفَتِح .


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## Abu Talha

Thanks for replying, Cherine. I wonder if I may ask for some clarification.

I always thought that the person saying, "Open Sesame!" is commanding the door itself to open, not some third party to open the door. If this is the case, shouldn't انفتح يا سمسم! be more correct?

As an example, if you are trying to open a jar whose lid is tightly closed, and being in expressive mood, you say to the jar, "Open!" would you say انفتح! or افتح! in Arabic?

Thanks.


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## Jabir

Assalamu Alaykum, daee SaaHib.

Indeed, in Portuguese, this sentence is made famous as "Abre-te, Sésamo!", which literally means "Open yourself, sesame!". 
I wonder why it is not so in Arabic...


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## Abu Talha

وعليكم السلام يا أخي الكريم جابر
It's good to see you back in the Arabic forums. We use the intransitive verb command in Urdu too, _khul jaa simsim!_. Let's wait for Arabic experts to explain the افتح يا سمسم.


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## HermanTheGerman

daee said:


> We use the intransitive verb command in Urdu too, _khul jaa simsim!_.


BTW, the German translation mirrors the Portuguese one. The German translation is "Sesam öffne dich!" (=Sesame, open thyself)
According to Wiktionary, most Indoeuropean languages (except for English of course) use a reflexive pronoun in the translation. 
However, the reason for this might be that many European translators probably used Gallard's French translation (Sésame ouvre-toi) as the basis for their translations.


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## cherine

daee said:


> I always thought that the person saying, "Open Sesame!" is commanding the door itself to open, not some third party to open the door. If this is the case, shouldn't انفتح يا سمسم! be more correct?
> 
> As an example, if you are trying to open a jar whose lid is tightly closed, and being in expressive mood, you say to the jar, "Open!" would you say انفتح! or افتح! in Arabic?


I didn't want to go into details in my previous post.  I was going to say that افتح يا سمسم could be addressing the door itself in such a literary context (you know, personifying objects is not rare at all).
So, technically it should have been infati7. But ifta7 is also correct.
And in a previous post I said that there are some interpretation to who that simsim was/could be. So, having the form افتح gives way to more interpretations (=imagination) than the strict انفتح.


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## barkoosh

It's common in Arabic to omit the مفعول به if it's too obvious or not the center of focus:
تفتح محلاتنا من الساعة 8 إلى الساعة 5
سمعتُ الولد يشتم
(someone who is locked in a room would shout) افتحوا لي!‏
هو يحلّ ويعقد
أعطوا تُعطَوا
مَن أحبَّ سامحَ


Likewise, افتح يا سمسم has an omitted مفعول به which could be الباب or الصخرة or anything else.


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## Abu Talha

Thanks everyone for your very helpful replies. I hope you don't mind if I ask you one last question for clarification, in افتح يا سمسم does it come to your mind that سمسم could be not the door itself, but some third party?

Also, in the "jar" analogy, would you rather say انفتح or افتح? Also, if you are telling a knot to open, would you say حُلّ! or انحلّ! The reason behind these questions is that I'm wondering whether the imperative of a transitive verb is preferred when it is shorter (فعل مجرد), even though its reflexive (مطاوع) would more strictly apply.

EDIT:





barkoosh said:


> تفتح محلاتنا من الساعة 8 إلى الساعة 5


In this sentence, is تفتح in passive voice: تُفْتَحُ محلاتُنا من الساعة 8 إلى الساعة 5 . "Our stores *are opened* from 8 am to 5 pm." If so, then it  would be normal that the فاعل is absent, right?

Also, I noticed in hadith that the فعل أمر can also be used for the past tense:


> وَكَانَ عَمْرٌو يَقُولُ أَخْبَرَنَا أَبُو صَالِحٍ أَنَّ قَيْسَ بْنَ سَعْدٍ قَالَ لأَبِيهِ كُنْتُ فِى الْجَيْشِ فَجَاعُوا . قَالَ انْحَرْ . قَالَ نَحَرْتُ . قَالَ ثُمَّ جَاعُوا قَالَ انْحَرْ . قَالَ نَحَرْتُ . قَالَ ثُمَّ جَاعُوا قَالَ انْحَرْ . قَالَ نَحَرْتُ ثُمَّ جَاعُوا قَالَ انْحَرْ . قَالَ نُهِيتُ


(source)
Narrated Abu Salih: Qais bin Sad said to his father. "I was present in the army and the people were struck with severe hunger." He said, "You should have slaughtered (camels) (for them)." Qais said, "I did slaughter camels but they were hungry again. He said, "You should have slaughtered (camels) again." Qais said, "I did slaughter (camels) again but the people felt hungry again." He said, "You should have slaughtered (camels) again." Qais said, "I did slaughter (camels) again, but the people again felt hungry." He said, "You should have slaughtered (camels) again." Qais said, "But I was forbidden (by Abu 'Ubaida this time)."



> فَقُلْتُ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ بَيْنَمَا أَنَا الْبَارِحَةَ مِنْ جَوْفِ اللَّيْلِ أَقْرَأُ فِى مِرْبَدِى إِذْ جَالَتْ فَرَسِى . فَقَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم اقْرَإِ ابْنَ حُضَيْرٍ . قَالَ فَقَرَأْتُ ثُمَّ جَالَتْ أَيْضًا . فَقَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم اقْرَإِ ابْنَ حُضَيْرٍ . قَالَ فَقَرَأْتُ ثُمَّ جَالَتْ أَيْضًا . فَقَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم اقْرَإِ ابْنَ حُضَيْرٍ


(source)
... and said: Messenger of Allah, I recited the Qur'an during the night in my enclosure and my horse began to jump. Upon this the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: You should have kept on reciting, Ibn Hudair. He (Ibn Hudair) said: I recited. It jumped (as before). Upon this the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) again said: You should have kept on reciting, Ibn Hudair. He (Ibn Hudair) said: I recited and it again jumped (as before). The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) again said: You should kave kept on reciting, Ibu Hudair.

Perhaps it is also flexible in active vs. passive voice?


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## barkoosh

> in افتح يا سمسم does it come to your mind that سمسم could be not the door itself, but some third party?


Personally, I never thought about it that way. I always thought it's the door itself.



> Also, in the "jar" analogy, would you rather say انفتح or افتح? Also, if you are telling a knot to open, would you say حُلّ! or انحلّ!


Since we use dialects in our daily life, all I can say, for my part, is that I use "افتح" and "فكّ" (also "سكّر" [slang for أغلِق]). Can't say if this works in MSA.



> is تفتح in passive voice: تُفْتَحُ محلاتُنا من الساعة 8 إلى الساعة 5


It's تَفْتَح. The مفعول به is implied: تفتح محلاتنا أبوابَها...



> I noticed in hadith that the فعل أمر can also be used for the past tense


This is new to me. I believe it's not used in MSA.


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## Abu Rashid

barkoosh said:


> Since we use dialects in our daily life.. (also "سكّر" [slang for أغلِق]). Can't say if this works in MSA.



سكر is not slang, it is a very old Arabic word which is just not used much in fus7a.


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## Abu Talha

barkoosh said:


> Personally, I never thought about it that way. I always thought it's the door itself.





> It's تَفْتَح. The مفعول به is implied: تفتح محلاتنا أبوابَها...


Thanks very much for your patience with me. I think I'm finally getting the hang of it. So it seems that in such situations there is a deleted مفعول به somehow referring either back to the object (نفسَك), or to part of it (أبوابَك). 





> Since we use dialects in our daily life, all I can say, for my part, is that I use "افتح" and "فكّ" (also "سكّر" [slang for أغلِق]). Can't say if this works in MSA.


So if the فعل مجرد was intransitive (لازم), would you use a transitive form (فعل متعد) of the verb for a command? I can't think of any example right now except غَلَى يَغْلِي غَلَيانًا meaning to boil. If water was taking too long to boil, would you say to it غَلِّ/أَغْلِ! or اغْلِ! ? 

I don't want to influence your reasoning, but I'm guessing you would use the intransitive اغْلِ! because it is just like saying اخْرُجْ! , i.e., there is no need to say أَخْرِجْ [نفسك]!


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## barkoosh

> So if the فعل مجرد was intransitive (لازم), would you use a transitive form (فعل متعد) of the verb for a command?



It's definitely the intransitive form. I would say: "اغلِ".


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## Abu Talha

barkoosh said:


> It's definitely the intransitive form. I would say: "اغلِ".


Excellent. Thanks. The more I learn the more I appreciate how complex Arabic is!


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