# Put your coffee on the...ledge?



## thatsnotfootball

In Australia I would call what is being shown in the following four pictures, a ledge. I am not sure what you would call it in England or the US, and I definitely have no idea what you would call it in Germany! 











Could you or would you use the same word in German to describe what is being shown in each of the four different photographs? Perhaps the following examples might help.

"Put your coffee on the ledge"

"They were sitting on the ledge" (as in they, the people)


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## wandle

I would not say 'ledge'. A ledge is a shelf-like projection from a wall or a cliff, say.

Chambers English Dictionary, under 'ledge', gives the meaning 'a raised edge (obs.)', which would fit those images, so it seems that Australian usage still retains that older meaning.

I would just say 'on (the) top of' the barrier, counter or whatever.


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## manfy

Same here! The first image that comes to mind when I hear 'ledge' is a cornice on the outside of a building. In relation to the context 'coffee', I'd think of a decorative protrusion somewhere inside the room.
In your first picture the wall looks like a counter but in the other images it is too narrow to call it that.
In German I might say "Stell den Kaffee auf die Zwischenwand" (or maybe "Halbwand"). That's something like a divider wall (separator wall ??). Without seeing the actual structure, the term "Zwischenwand" might not be very clear, but when you do, I guess, every native speaker would make the mental connection.


BTW, 'ledge' would usually be translated as "Sims or Gesims". But this word doesn't fit to your pictures either, because in German it always describes a rather narrow protrusion at the wall or a recess in the wall, e.g. Fenstersims = windowsill.

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PS: Due to surprisingly relentless rainshowers I have to post again. 
It seems, in internet-Englishland the term "half wall" or "knee wall" is in frequent use for the structure in your pictures; in internet-Germanland you do find "Halbmauer", "Halbwand" - but somewhat less consistent than in English.


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## perpend

I would use "ledge" in American English for those items in the pics.

I think too technical of terms aren't necessary in context (in the moment), so I think many people would avoid a technical term and say:

Put your coffee up there. Put your coffee on that.
They were sitting up there. They were sitting on that.

Stell deinen Kaffee da darauf.
Sie sassen da darauf.


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## thatsnotfootball

Thanks for the replies so far. 

Firstly, wandle, that is true. I would call what you describe in your post, a ledge - but I would also use the same word to describe each and every object shown in these images. So it sounds to me like you are saying that in your experience from where you are from, seperate words are used to describe these things. 

I'm not really interested in the official definition of the word, more just what you (and others) would call such a thing in everyday language.

So just to clarify, according to you:

Shelf = Ledge (and Ledge can also be used when describing something that justs out, like a cliff, or window sill/ledge)
Pictures 1-4 = No specific word comes to mind. You would just say "the top of" - whatever it is. If you wouldn't mind could you give me an example for each of the pictures using "the top of"?


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## thatsnotfootball

manfy said:


> Same here! The first image that comes to mind when I hear 'ledge' is a cornice on the outside of a building. In relation to the context 'coffee', I'd think of a decorative protrusion somewhere inside the room.
> In your first picture the wall looks like a counter but in the other images it is too narrow to call it that.
> In German I might say "Stell den Kaffee auf die Zwischenwand" (or maybe "Halbwand"). That's something like a divider wall (separator wall ??). Without seeing the actual structure, the term "Zwischenwand" might not be very clear, but when you do, I guess, every native speaker would make the mental connection.
> 
> BTW, 'ledge' would usually be translated as "Sims or Gesims". But this word doesn't fit to your pictures either, because in German it always describes a rather narrow protrusion at the wall or a recess in the wall, e.g. Fenstersims = windowsill.
> 
> --------------
> PS: Due to surprisingly relentless rainshowers I have to post again.
> It seems, in internet-Englishland the term "half wall" or "knee wall" is in frequent use for the structure in your pictures; in internet-Germanland you do find "Halbmauer", "Halbwand" - but somewhat less consistent than in English.



Okay so here manfy it sounds like you are saying:

Ledge = Shelf (this is similar to wandle's understanding)
Picture 1 = Counter. So you are saying that you would describe both the surface used to prepare food AND the upper wall/ledge part as a "counter" here? Everything shown here is part of the "counter" and you would call it such?
Pictures 2-4 = You would just call a wall or half wall.

So let me just add a bit here. I would also call what is being shown in pictures 2-4 a "wall" - in certain circumstances. If I saw an indentically looking object somewhere outside, i could definitely call it that. But when it is in a house (like in the images shown) and especially when used in the context of putting something on there (ie. a cup of coffee or a person's backside as in my two examples) the first word that comes to my mind is "ledge".

Also, I do very much want to get the German translation for this word (or words) - I'm just trying to make sure that everyone is on the same page here in regards to what we're talking about, using English first. I think this will be important for clarity.


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## wandle

thatsnotfootball said:


> So just to clarify, according to you:
> Shelf = Ledge


I do not say shelf equals ledge. A ledge is a shelf-like thing.
It resembles a shelf, but it is not the same thing.


> Pictures 1-4 = No specific word comes to mind.


I gave the terms 'barrier' and 'counter' as examples.


> If you wouldn't mind could you give me an example for each of the pictures using "the top of"?


'On top of the counter', 'on the top of the barrier', as appropriate.


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## thatsnotfootball

Perpend. Interesting that you say you would also use the word "ledge" to describe what is being shown in all four images - using American English.

Sorry but what I am actually looking for is the specific noun or nouns that describe what is being shown in each picture. I am already familiar with the concept of using da as a pronoun.


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## thatsnotfootball

wandle said:


> I do not say shelf equals ledge. A ledge is a shelf-like thing.
> It resembles a shelf, but it is not the same thing.
> 
> I gave the terms 'barrier' and 'counter' as examples.
> 
> 'On top of the counter', 'on the top of the barrier', as appropriate.



Okay, thanks for that. So that would be:

Picture 1 = "on top of the counter"
Picture 2 = "on top of the barrier"
Picture 3 = "on top of the barrier"
Picture 4 = "on top of the barrier"

Whereas I would say:

Picture 1 = To me this is showing two things. The marble "bench" or "bench top", and the white "ledge". Pretty much the only thing I would be able to call the white part would be a "ledge" here.
Picture 2 = A "ledge". I could also call this a "wall", in certain situations.
Picture 3 = A "ledge". I might also call this a "wall" or possibly even "barrier" as it covers a few different sections/areas.
Picture 4 = A "ledge". I could also call this a "wall", in certain situations.


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## Schimmelreiter

thatsnotfootball said:


> wall


Since this is the German forum , except for ledge #2, which fails to be _gemauert_, _Mäuerchen_ comes to mind, also _Mäuerl_​ in my dialect.





thatsnotfootball said:


> Put your coffee on the ledge


_Stell deinen Kaffee aufs Mäuerl!_


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## wandle

thatsnotfootball said:


> So that would be:
> 
> Picture 1 = "on top of the counter"
> Picture 2 = "on top of the barrier"
> Picture 3 = "on top of the barrier"
> Picture 4 = "on top of the barrier"


Not quite. I deliberately varied the expression between 'on top of' and 'on the top of', adding the remark 'as appropriate'.

The OED does include the following meaning for 'ledge', among others:


> 3 a. A narrow horizontal surface, formed by the top of some vertical structure


This meaning would apply to the top of the structures in the images.


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## thatsnotfootball

Schimmelreiter said:


> Since this is the German forum , except for ledge #2, which fails to be _gemauert_, _Mäuerchen_ comes to mind, also _Mäuerl_​ in my dialect._Stell deinen Kaffee aufs Mäuerl!_



Thanks Schimmelreiter. So that goes for picture 1 as well? 

(Sorry I've just realised that I don't know the German word for kitchen bench either! So what it is that I'm trying to ask now has just become a little bit more difficult haha)

In picture 1, I can see two things - the marbled surface/bench area that would mainly be used for preparing food etc and then also the white section that I would call a "ledge". If I've understood you correctly you would call the white "ledge" that is being shown here, a "_Mäuerl"?

_Would you then agree with the following? I would appreciate it you could correct any mistakes or fill in the blanks where necessary. Also, what is your dialect if you don't mind me asking?

Table = Tisch
Desk = Schreibtisch or Arbeitstisch
Kitchen bench/counter (ie. the marbled surface area shown in Picture 1) = ??
The white "ledge" part shown in Picture 1 = _Mäuerl_​
Picture 2 = _Mäuerl_​
Picture 3 = _Mäuerl_​
Picture 4 = _Mäuerl_​
Shelf = Regal
Ledge = Sims


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## wandle

It seems to me that an essential part of the meaning of 'ledge' is a horizontal or roughly horizontal surface of some kind.

Once we distinguish the horizontal from the vertical part of a structure, then it seems to me incorrect to apply the word 'ledge' to the vertical part.


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## Frank78

thatsnotfootball said:


> Kitchen bench/counter (ie. the marbled surface area shown in Picture 1) = *Arbeitsplatte*


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## thatsnotfootball

wandle said:


> It seems to me that an essential part of the meaning of 'ledge' is a horizontal or roughly horizontal surface of some kind.
> 
> Once we distinguish the horizontal from the vertical part of a structure, then it seems to me incorrect to apply the word 'ledge' to the vertical part.



True enough, but in my experience (Australia maybe just different) if the context refers to the ledge part of the wall then the whole object is generally just called a ledge. Also, if the walls are inside a house (like in the examples) then they are just generally called ledges by default ie. it's the first thing you think of. I tried to explain this a bit in post number 6. I would really only call such a wall, a "wall" if the context was that it was in my way - and since you generally wouldn't being saying that a wall is in your way when you're in a house (they're built not to be in your way pretty much) - it's mostly a ledge. 

Another way I could explain it is the only time such a wall would ever be mentioned is usually in a ledge kind of context. For example "Have you seen my keys?" "Yeah, they're on the ledge near the telephone" or "Yeah, they're on the ledge in the kitchen (ie. see white part in Picture 1)"

Wow that all sounds strange to read but I really hope that I'm not crazy.

Anyway perhaps you could have a go at the German translations of the following too? That way everyone can compare:

 Table = ??
Desk = ??
Kitchen bench/counter (ie. the marbled surface area shown in Picture 1) = ??
The white "ledge" part shown in Picture 1 = ??
Picture 2 = ??
Picture 3 = ??
Picture 4 = ??
Shelf = ??
Ledge = ??


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## thatsnotfootball

Thanks Frank78. How would you go at translating a word for the white  part of the "Arbeitsplatte" that is also being shown in that picture? Is  it the same word for that part also? What about for the other pictures  too, bearing in mind my two examples:

"Put your coffee on the "??" (for pictures 2-4)

"They were sitting on the "??" (for pictures 2-4) (they as in they, the people)


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## manfy

thatsnotfootball said:


> Shelf = Ledge (this is similar to wandle's understanding)
> Picture 1 = Counter. So you are saying that you would describe both the surface used to prepare food AND the upper wall/ledge part as a Counter here? Everything shown here is part of the Counter and you would call it such?
> Pictures 2-4 = You would just call a wall or half wall.



First off, I'm not a native English speaker. For everyday use, I gave up dictionaries long ago, which means that I learn the meaning of unknown words like a child, i.e. through logical conclusions based on context or by asking what that word means exactly. (in professional life it's a different story, of course)
Also, I'm not an architect, therefore I don't have the need to find technically correct terms for such everyday items. If I'm forced to name them I just find a reasonably descriptive word for it that a 'normal person' (whatever that is) would understand (that's true for German and English).

* all of the structures in your pictures could be called 'half wall'. Inside a building I'd rarely call it just 'wall' because that always implies - for me - a wall from floor to ceiling. Out in the open, since there is no ceiling, any wall from 50cm to as high as it can go is a wall.
* a counter is for me any narrow, shelf-like table for temporary use (ticket counter, service counter, bar counter, etc.). So, whenever that half wall has a top board with 20-30cm width, I'd feel inclined to call it a counter. Image 1 qualifies, the others do not.
In German, I might call that "Theke" = bar counter (particularly if it is in front of a kichen or an actual booze bar or equivalent) 

* image 2 is clearly just a separation wall and I'd call it half wall. In German "Halbwand", "kleine Trennwand" or also "Mäuerchen/ dialectal: Mäuerl"
* image 3 looks like a safety wall near an open staircase. I'd call it half wall (near/at the stairs); in German "Mauer an der Treppe" or "Stiegenmauer"
* image 4 looks also like a separation wall, hence half wall, "Halbwand", Trennwand or also "Mäuerchen/ dialectal: Mäuerl"


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## thatsnotfootball

manfy said:


> First off, I'm not a native English speaker. For everyday use, I gave up dictionaries long ago, which means that I learn the meaning of unknown words like a child, i.e. through logical conclusions based on context or by asking what that word means exactly. (in professional life it's a different story, of course)
> Also, I'm not an architect, therefore I don't have the need to find technically correct terms for such everyday items. If I'm forced to name them I just find a reasonably descriptive word for it that a 'normal person' (whatever that is) would understand (that's true for German and English).
> 
> * all of the structures in your pictures could be called 'half wall'. Inside a building I'd rarely call it just 'wall' because that always implies - for me - a wall from floor to ceiling. Out in the open, since there is no ceiling, any wall from 50cm to as high as it can go is a wall.
> * a counter is for me any narrow, shelf-like table for temporary use (ticket counter, service counter, bar counter, etc.). So, whenever that half wall has a top board with 20-30cm width, I'd feel inclined to call it a counter. Image 1 qualifies, the others do not.
> In German, I might call that "Theke" = bar counter (particularly if it is in front of a kichen or an actual booze bar or equivalent)
> 
> * image 2 is clearly just a separation wall and I'd call it half wall. In German "Halbwand" or also "Mäuerchen/ dialectal: Mäuerl"
> * image 3 looks like a safety wall near an open staircase. I'd call it half wall (near/at the stairs); in German "Mauer an der Treppe" or "Stiegenmauer"
> * image 4 looks also like a separation wall, hence half wall, "Halbwand" or also "Mäuerchen/ dialectal: Mäuerl"



I find this post to be especially helpful. Thanks for taking the time. 

"Theke" is another new word for me too, so I'll look into that one.

Would you also describe the marbled section of picture 1 as an "arbeitsplatte", as according to Frank78? *

*edit* It looks like a kitchen to me, so I would just like to confirm that "arbeitsplatte" is the correct word here. Also, wow it sure would have been easier if you guys used the same word for all four of the examples like we do over here!


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## manfy

thatsnotfootball said:


> Would you also describe the marbled section of picture 1 as an "arbeitsplatte", as according to Frank78? *


No, definitely not! "Arbeitsplatte" is the actual work surface where you prepare your food for cooking. That little shelf/ledge/counter in picture 1 is (or may be) intended as space for the finished food, to be collected from teh other side and then served at the table.
My house has got a similar design...well, it's actually a large hole in the wall between kitchen and living room. In German that hole is called "Durchreiche", but that little counter I'd call "Theke" (or "Küchentheke" if you have several).


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## Frank78

manfy said:


> No, definitely not! "Arbeitsplatte" is the actual work surface where you prepare your food for cooking. That little shelf/ledge/counter in picture 1 is (or may be) intended as space for the finished food, to be collected from teh other side and then served at the table.
> My house has got a similar design...well, it's actually a large hole in the wall between kitchen and living room. In German that hole is called "Durchreiche", but that little counter I'd call "Theke" (or "Küchentheke" if you have several).



The horizontal thing with the sink is for sure an "Arbeitsplatte"


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## Ancana

Image 1 I'd call "(Küchen-)Tresen"
Image 2 "Mäuerchen"
Image 3 "Brüstung" if there is a staircase behind
Image 4 "Trennwand"


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## manfy

Frank78 said:


> The horizontal thing with the sink is for sure an "Arbeitsplatte"


Ah, ok! You're talking about the brown marble surface at sink level. Yes, that's called Arbeitsplatte. But not the white marble shelf that's about 30cm higher.
I've heard some people call that counter "Anrichte" (=serving area).
But I still prefer "Küchentheke". I also like Ancana's "Küchentresen" - but the words are synonymous, just a regional difference in use.

I also like "Brüstung" for picture 3; I'd immediately understand the meaning and I'd have used it myself if I had thought of it earlier.


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## ABBA Stanza

manfy said:


> Ah, ok! You're talking about the brown marble surface at sink level. Yes, that's called Arbeitsplatte. But not the white marble shelf that's about 30cm higher.
> I've heard some people call that counter "Anrichte" (=serving area).
> But I still prefer "Küchentheke". I also like Ancana's "Küchentresen" - but the words are synonymous, just a regional difference in use.


Are you sure the thing we're talking about (picture 1) it's made of marble? It looks like wood painted white to me. Whichever one it's made of, I was wondering whether one could just refer to it as a _"Holzleiste"_ or _"Marmorleiste"_, as appropriate...



wandle said:


> It seems to me that an essential part of the meaning of 'ledge' is a horizontal or roughly horizontal surface of some kind.
> 
> Once we distinguish the horizontal from the vertical part of a structure, then it seems to me incorrect to apply the word 'ledge' to the vertical part.


I agree. For me, a ledge is just a special type of 2-dimensional surface (as per the OED definition you quoted). To refer to the whole 3-dimensional structure as a ledge seems just plain wrong to me as a non-Aussie. 

It's also interesting that many dictionaries (_Chambers_, etc.) seem to restrict their definition to horizontal surfaces projecting from vertical structures, because I've personally never had problems with referring to the "ledge of a wall" as meaning its top edge, for example. And indeed, one gets lots of hits for that particular phrase when doing a search for it on the web.

Cheers
Abba


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## manfy

ABBA Stanza said:


> Are you sure the thing we're talking about (picture 1) it's made of marble? It looks like wood painted white to me. Whichever one it's made of, I was wondering whether one could just refer to it as a _"Holzleiste"_ or _"Marmorleiste"_, as appropriate...


You're right! It might be just a painted wooden board. I was focussing only on a name for the whole structure and not really on individual parts. I hope we're not going down that road (my brother is a carpenter and his company is making fancy furniture for the ultra-rich. Hence I know, there are a hundred different fancy terms for what's basically just a piece of timber nailed to another piece of timber...  ) 



ABBA Stanza said:


> It's also interesting that many dictionaries (_Chambers_, etc.) seem to restrict their definition to horizontal surfaces projecting from vertical structures, [...]


Yes, somehow I have the same definition in my head.
I'm not sure if that comes from the fact that I primarily heard it used that way in English or whether it comes from the German equivalent in relation to mountaineering where "ledge" = "Felsvorsprung". Somehow, a ledge is not a ledge if it's not narrow and if it's not protruding from reasonably vertical surroundings.


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## ayuda?

Just an attempt to summarize and clarify things a little.
No,thatsnot football, you’re not crazy. Sometimes it’s like trying to untie the Gordian knot—been there.

=ledge: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ledgeà[See Entry #* 3a*]:
“a narrow flat surface”—it doesn’t have to necessarily project from one side or another of something;
For me, that is the word that immediately came to mind.
I understand the difficult because that meaning is not listed in all dictionaries. [no Duden here]

Perhaps it best applies to Images 2-4, even though it does not necessarily project/protrude.

=The exact word you are looking for is “the top of that whole structure” [_auf der oberen Fläche der__ Gegenstände_ ].


*Image #1:*
Since it is such a large structure, projects out a long way out, and is in what looks like a kitchen; it seemed to me, too, that _Theke/Kuchentheke_ was the best word. 
Also,it is elevated to such a level that you wouldn’t be using it as a work surface.

*Image #2-4 *in general_:_
_Halbwand/Halbmauer/Trennwand/__ Mäuerchen_ seem to be what most natives would use.
It would be called a _dividing wall/half wall_ here:
 http://www.diynetwork.com/how-to/how-to-build-a-half-wall/index.html [half wall in English]

*Image#3 **in specific:*
In addition to what we would see as a _Halbwand _surrounding the staircase, 
_Stiegermauer an der _Treppe/ Brüstung seem to coincide more precisely with the German definition of that structure and with Google Images.



*Bottomline:*
=Re:_Holzleister _and _Marmorleiste_:
Wouldn’t that mean the trim the goes around something and protrudes/juts out from the side of something [_Verzierung_]??

=Does anyone know exactly what the top piece of these walls is called in German*?? *

**That’s really the question, though, in Images 2-4.
Apparently, in German you just think of it only as the top of the whole structure [auf der Halbwand/ Brüstung usw.], not the actual top—and more attention is given to defining the type of structure, whereas we might more readily think only of it as the top of X [ledge]??
It seems to be more of a technical, architectural word in German, or one used in construction [Baukonstruktion/ Gebäudekonstruktion], and instead in German you use: _Stellen Sie den Kaffee auf die Halbwand_, etc. Is that right?


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