# Learning Arabic



## englishman

I've been toying with the idea of learning Arabic for years, but I've never started as I've never seen a decent set of books. Does anyone know of any good, fairly formal, introductory Arabic texts that cover grammar in a traditional manner - most of the stuff I've seen seems to be aimed at people with an attention span of 5 minutes, and has looked painfully incomplete. 

And the other question, of course, is what kind of Arabic is it sensible to start with ? Egyptian ? Classical ? I really have no idea, so any sensible suggestions are gratefully accepted.


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## Outsider

Here's a start. 

P.S. And more.


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## linguist786

In my opinion, it's best to start with MSA/Classical, _then_ move on to different dialects. MSA is like the "pure" form of Arabic which I think you should learn first, then maybe go on to see how the Arabic is "changed" in the different dialects.


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## abusaf

I agree with Linguist. I dont know what your motive is for studying Arabic but if it has anything to do with reading newspapers, listening to media, reading Arabic books, then Classical Arabic, also called MSA, would be your first choice. 

And then to add some dialectial skills upon could be a good idea, however, you will pick up a dialect anyway after a while of Arabic studies, that's usually how it goes.

Wish you the best.


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## englishman

abusaf said:
			
		

> if it has anything to do with reading newspapers, listening to media, reading Arabic books, then Classical Arabic, also called MSA, would be your first choice.



That's pretty much it. BTW, I've seen Quranic Arabic referred to as classical - are they, in fact, the same thing ?

Thanks.


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## Abu Bishr

Hi Englishman

Some writers use the terms MSA & Classical Arabic interchangeably. I think they might be alternative translations for the Arabic term Fus-ha (الفصحى). The opposite of Fus-ha is 'Ammiyyah (العامية) colloquial (i.e. the Arabic of the masses or general Arab public). The main distinction between the two is the focus that the former puts on grammar (especially the rules pertaining to inflection & conjugation, etc.) as formulated by the past Arabic philologists and grammarians (stating in the 7th or 8th century), most of whom were - incidentally - non-Arabs.

Others, on the other hand, use MSA to signify Arabic as used in modern period in the areas of media, literature, formal contexts, etc. and Classical Arabic to signify the Arabic used in the Quranic and Prophetic expressions as well as other extant or later literary works. In other words, the two forms of Arabic while agreeing in grammar (as both fall in the category of Fus-ha) they disagree as to the words, phases, and expressions specific to each. To understand the language of Classical Arabic we often have to refer to classical dictionaries, which is an indication how different it is from MSA. The main dictionary for MSA used by English-speakers learning Arabic is Hans Wehr. If you have this dictionary you will do well to read the introduction (which I have'nt in a long while). It should give you valuable information. The best English dictionary for Classical Arabic is undoubtedly Lane's Lexicon (comprising a number of voulumes even though he never completed it). I think it took him 30 years to write. You would do well to read the introduction to his lexicon as well.

In short, MSA and Classical Arabic are both Fus-ha (grammatically correct Arabic) but differ in language and colloquial Arabic is not Fus-ha since it does not observe the grammatical rules of Fus-ha (i.e. classical Arabic & MSA).

I hope this makes sense.


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## englishman

Abu Bishr said:
			
		

> Others, on the other hand, use MSA to signify Arabic as used in modern period in the areas of media, literature, formal contexts, etc. and Classical Arabic to signify the Arabic used in the Quranic and Prophetic expressions as well as other extant or later literary works.


This is my understanding of the terms, but from what you wrote, it seems that Classical Arabic is also used by some to refer to MSA , in which case the term is fairly confusing.

Can you recommend any decent Arabic grammar texts ? I'm the sort of person who likes to understand the formal details of what I'm learning.


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## Thomas F. O'Gara

Englishman:

If you want a review of the grammar with extended exercises, you can't go wrong with "A New Arabic Grammar of the Written Language" by Haywood and Nahmad.  There is a separate key to the exercises available too.  It covers about everything on the written language.

Another choice that I like is "Arabic Language and Grammar", a four volume set by Jochanan Kapliwatzki.  It's become available recently from India, after being out of print for several years.

Both of these are strictly MSA, although Haywood includes some classical selections and a lot of the material in the last volume of Kapliwatzki is in the classical idiom.  There is nothing on dialects outside of a somewhat illuminating article in Haywood.

If you're looking for dialect material and you want a thorough working of the grammar, you can try T. F. Mitchell's exhaustive "An Introduction to Egyptian Colloquial Arabic".  It's a bit old - Mitchell wrote it for Shell Oil back when they had a large concession in Egypt - but it's still quite valid.  There's no Arabic script in this book, which stands to reason in a book written in the colloquial.  I've yet to see another dialect book that I'd recommend unequivocally.

You can work on both the colloquial and MSA at the same time.  While it may seem confusing at first, the grammar of any colloquial dialect is sufficiently different from MSA so that you won't confuse them, and in time you will find your study of the colloquial supported and strengthened by working on MSA.


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## MarcB

Englishman, Try the resources sticky for MSA,Colloquial,The Qura'an and Bible all for free and they will give you a start.


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## englishman

Yikes ! I hadn't actually noticed those - my eyes seem to have filtered them out for some reason. Thanks.


			
				Thomas F. O'Gara said:
			
		

> If you want a review of the grammar with extended exercises, you can't go wrong with "A New Arabic Grammar of the Written Language" by Haywood and Nahmad.  There is a separate key to the exercises available too.  It covers about everything on the written language.



This sounds like it may be what I'm looking for. Here's a quote from Amazon that I could have written myself:

"For those fed up learning a language my memorizing touristy phrases, or these new 'wonderfully cr@p' methods then check out this book. What appealed to me about Hayward & Nahamd was its grammar orientated approach to understanding Arabic. The book's approach reminded me my schooldays of learning Latin: declining nouns, conjugating verbs and translating texts"


			
				Thomas F. O'Gara said:
			
		

> There's no Arabic script in this book, which stands to reason in a book written in the colloquial.



I've no idea what you mean here - how can there be no Arabic script in an Arabic text ?

Thanks for the book tips.


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## MarcB

His tips are good. What he means is the Egyptian is transliterated only.


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## allblackfan333

To clarify that some more for you... the dialects are written in the MSA script when they are written at all, but since most written material is in MSA, many books regarding colloquial dialects will have little or no Arabic script.

also I would recommend Al-Kitaab Fii Ta'allum Al-'arabiyya from the Georgetown University press. I'm not very far into it but it seems to be a very good textbook and it comes with DVD supplements.


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## Anatoli

In the topic _*how to begin studying Arabic*_ I recommended this book:
Colloquial Arabic of Egypt
Concentrating on the Egyptian dialect, Arabic script is provided. Easy to follow.

Can't give more feedback, I only looked at a couple of lessons only, focussing on MSA at the moment. The author mentions that there could be different ways to write down the dialects, so they say it could also be written differently but it is in both Roman (main text and comments) and Arabic (at the back) script! The vocab uses both.

*Mastering Arabic* and *Ultimate Arabic* are also great books (there are some minor flaws).


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## Thomas F. O'Gara

Englishman, MarcB:

Regarding the use of Arabic writing in the colloquial, as Allblackfan333 mentioned in his notes, many, if not most, books on colloquial Arabic dialects will not include an Arabic script text, and just give a transliteration of the spoken language into some modified form of the Roman alphabet. The logic behind this is that using the Arabic alphabet can be misleading in writing dialect.

There are some books that do have Arabic script for the colloquial material, and Anatoli cites one in his blog above, although the book he cites - Colloquial Arabic of Egypt - is one that I'm not familiar with.

I do own one colloquial book that has Arabic script, an old 1970's item called "Vest Pocket Arabic", and I found the use of Arabic script somewhat misleading in determining the pronunciation, and had to rely on the tranliteration to work with the material. Actually, aside from that the book was quite handy as a source for Egyptian colloquialisms, and worth owning for that reason alone, although as a basic text for the Egyptian colloquial it has drawbacks.


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## Anatoli

The authors off "Colloquial Arabic of Egypt" are Jane Wightwick and Mahmoud Gaafar. It comes with CD's or cassettes.

It's not my blog but a topic discussed on this forum.


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## goheels

> also I would recommend Al-Kitaab Fii Ta'allum Al-'arabiyya from the Georgetown University press. I'm not very far into it but it seems to be a very good textbook and it comes with DVD supplements.


 
My class also uses this book. It seems to be the book that most American universities use. It's mainly MSA. The book (haha) follows a story of Maha, Khaled, others and their families. The DVD contains dialogues and monologues of the characters. It also has the same monologues (the main ones) in Egyptian 'aamiiyah. You can buy the answer key for only a few dollars.


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## abmateen

[Moderator's Note: Merged with a previous thread]
Asslam-u-Alikum,

I have a another question that every one here can see that arabic has more vocabulary and we cannot learn all of them.Can any one tell me some way about how to efficiently learn arabic language vocabulary.


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## mujahid7ia

Wa 'alaykum assalaam
I make index cards, but you have to make sure you can understand the word in a sentence. I try to learn at least the plural for nouns.


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## Hibou57

Hello AbMatten... may I suggest you to learn roots instead of learning only words...


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## shami

As'salamu alaykum

If you want to learn Arabic, you have to start from the alphabets..cuz because there is some specific arabic letters ..and then you have to follow by simple words such as greetings ..numbers ...and then try to learn the simple verbs such as I want, I like, I eat, I visit, I don't like..ect...

If you want to, I can teach you the pure Arabic with audio clip ... Well there are still many Arabic slang, each Arabic country has it slang so bear this in mind ...Have a nice day


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## cyclodextrin

could someone explain what roots are?  Just very basic, with a simple example would be great.

Thanks


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## elroy

The root of a word is the combinaton of letters (usually 3 or 4) that contain the main semantic information about the word.  

For example, the root ك-ت-ب means "writing" so all words based on that root have something to do with writing.

Various affixes are added to the root to alter the meaning.


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## underdawg

[Moderator's Note: Merged with a previous thread]
Hi,

I am learning the Arabic language. Currently, I can understand most verses of the Qur2aan, but it is very difficult for me to decode text on Arabic websites (news, etc.).

To acquire a vocabulary of the modern written language, and to better my reading without the use of short-vowels, I was thinking of reading Arabic novels, and their English translation side by side.

So my questions are:

1. Would a novel translation be literal enough to help me?
2. What are some famous Arabic novels, known for the eloquence of the language used, and that have been translated into English?
3. Is there an online bookstore that sells these books? (I am located in the US.)

Thanks,


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## MarcB

Welcome Underdawg,
Khalil Gibran's the Prophet here http://tyros.leb.net/gibran/indexar.html
In Arabic and English.
Here Poems from Morocco, Iraq and Egypt in Arabic and English.


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## Mahaodeh

I'm not sure about the "literal" translation though.  From my experience, the more literal the translation, the lower the standard of overal language and the better the translation the less "literal" it is; the translator starts to use better expression that may not be in the original but convey the same idea in good language.


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## Outsider

You can't expect a novel to be translated literally. If literal is what you want, I suggest reading appliance manuals (but that may get dull fast. )

How about the _Arabian Nights_? Or would its Arabic be too ancient?


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## Petter

> How about the _Arabian Nights_? Or would its Arabic be too ancient?



The problem with The Arabian Nights, is that there are many different versions in Arabic as well as numerous diverging translations.


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## clevermizo

Outsider said:


> You can't expect a novel to be translated literally. If literal is what you want, I suggest reading appliance manuals (but that may get dull fast. )
> 
> How about the _Arabian Nights_? Or would its Arabic be too ancient?



The popular translations of ألف ليلة وليلة　are not literal and often paraphrase or cut out sections, although there may be a scholarly English edition which attempts at close translation. That coupled with differing Arabic versions as has been mentioned makes it difficult. The Arabic overall is not "too ancient" as written Arabic has not changed so sweepingly, however there are some references to certain places or objects or idioms/poetry which may be difficult to understand in a modern context.

However, if one's Arabic is decent, one could use a popular English version as a rough guide, to at least make sure one understands the gists of stories.


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## underdawg

Thanks guys for the replies.



> The popular translations of ألف ليلة وليلة　are not literal and often paraphrase or cut out sections,...


Yes, I've tried the Arabian Nights, but abandoned it for this same reason.

I'm going for literal vs gist because I want to understand the choice of words. I can then go back and read it and appreciate it. Appliance manuals, huh?


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## Outsider

Well, here's a different, but serious suggestion. How about reading _Harry Potter_ in Arabic? Fantasy novels usually have translations that follow the original fairly closely, without being ungrammatical. And most people find them exciting.


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## MarcB

If you try the links I gave you, you should be able to understad them and you can ask questions here for what you don't.


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## evanovka

[Moderator's Note: Merged with a previous thread]
Hello everybody,
first I'd like to say that I'm really impressed by this forum ... I don't really understand a lot of what is going on here, but I can see that you are serious in interest and helping, and this is promising for my question 
I am trying to learn arabic since a couple of years now, because my husband is arab and I would like to take some advantage from this. Meanwhile, I can understand what he's talking on the phone and passively follow conversations on everyday topics, but I am quite frustrated when it comes to speaking myself or reading more complex texts. My impression is that people won't expect me to speak any fusha, and will not understand when I use fusha words mixed with dialect. But alas, when I try to learn dialect, it seems to be extremely important to learn the correct dialect ... and my people's special spice of galilean does not seem to be written down in any book, but I need books to learn!
So finally my question: do you have any hints? do you share the same problems? is it all just not so serious about the wrong and right dialects? is there any chance to get people to accept a mixture of fusha and dialect, possibly even dialects? Is it a good idea to improve usage of dialectal arabic, and then have an easier time in reading fusha?
Is there an old thread about this?
Thank you very much... I am looking forward to spend more time in this forum and learn a bit every day


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## clevermizo

I doubt you will find a text to teach you Galilean, but if you find one, be sure to share it with us. You can find texts in Palestinian (probably based on the speech of Jerusalem) and Syrian (based on Damascus). 

Galilean is part of the same dialect continuum. My suggestion would be to pick a Levantine dialect for which you can find a good text. Learn through the text. Then in talking with your husband and others, as well as using other resources like this forum, you 'll be able to learn differences in grammar and vocabulary that may distinguish your husband's speech from whatever it is that you are learning textually. It seems complicated, but that's life. Doing this won't help you learn to read fus7a easier - that requires a separate effort, and there are a plethora of texts to teach it.


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## WadiH

evanovka said:


> My impression is that people won't expect me to speak any fusha, and will not understand when I use fusha words mixed with dialect. ... is there any chance to get people to accept a mixture of fusha and dialect, possibly even dialects?


 
Nobody speaks in "pure" dialect or pure Fus7a; these are just two poles or "ideals", but in reality most people's speech includes elements that are associated with Fus7a, and vice versa.  Also, in the 21st century, most people (especially urban people) speak in composite or "mixed" dialects.  Arabic-speakers generally do not recognize nearly as many discrete and separate dialects as linguists and scholars do.


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## Mahaodeh

evanovka said:


> My impression is that people won't expect me to speak any fusha, and will not understand when I use fusha words mixed with dialect.


 
They would not expect you to be perfect in Arrabic either . However, I believe that they would understand fusHa words and unless you are using obselete or very poetic words and they have had little education, they would probably understand all fusHa. My 88 year old grandmother with only 4 years of schooling can understand fusHa very well; she understands the Quran and she follows TV with no difficulty; it is the modern loan words she finds difficulty with (such ديناميكية) not the classical ones.

In general, you need not worry, things will come to you; what I have noticed is that non-native speakers find the difference between fusHa and collequal great while native speakers in general don't.


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## evanovka

Thank you so far for the answers!
I am aware that most people use their dialect for everyday words, and add some fusha words where it comes to more technical topics, for example. Still, it sounds very strange to use a fusha verb conjugation together with a dialect rest of the phrase, while it is not half as bad to use a dialect verb with a fusha object, for example. For my ears of a stranger, of course ... I really don't know if that counts! 
... and yes, I agree that most natives don't feel that there is a great difference, that is part of my problem 
I get corrected almost every time I use a fusha alternative, such as صديق instead of صحب , or حجرة instead of غرفة, for example. It is nice to be understood, but it would be even nicer to be understood with less corrections - that's the long time goal


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## clevermizo

I think that extent to which fus7a finds itself in dialect speech is largely in word choice. It probably would sound strange to speak in a dialect and use the fus7a grammar for half of a sentence, unless you were trying to make a point by doing so.

Personally, I speak a "mixed" dialect because as a learner I, strangely enough, don't have a native dialect at all.  And I use fus7a words and pronunciations in speech when the occasion arises and no one to whom I have talked has pointed out (yet) that that has sounded strange. My core grammar is Lebanese/Syrian, but I usually pronounce the sound ث _th_ (_mathalan_ and not _masalan_, etc.), etc.

It's true that I would never utter "Uriidu an adhhaba ila l-maT3ami ma3aki", and I wouldn't mix it and say "Baddi adhhab ila l-maT3am" or something like that. But I'm finally competent enough in my speaking that I'm picking up a lot of the subtleties of when and how fus7a vocabulary finds itself in speech and I'm starting to find it's really wonderful to have almost the whole Arabic lexicon (barring obscurities that people won't understand) at your disposal. It doesn't hurt at the beginning to fool yourself into thinking that you have to memorize double for everything (colloquial vs. fus7a), because I think it makes you work harder. This hard work eventually lets you discover and appreciate the actual continuity that exists on the ground.


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## elroy

Willkommen im Forum, evanovka! 


evanovka said:


> My impression is that people won't expect me to speak any fusha, and will not understand when I use fusha words mixed with dialect.


 Don't be frustrated.  In my experience, most Arabs are understanding and patient with foreigners who use MSA, and as Maha said, comprehension should not present a huge problem in the vast majority of cases, unless you start speaking like المتنبي or something! 





> But alas, when I try to learn dialect, it seems to be extremely important to learn the correct dialect ... and my people's special spice of galilean does not seem to be written down in any book, but I need books to learn!


 It's not as bad as you're making it out to be.  If you learn any Levantine dialect you should be absolutely fine in the Galilee.  I should know; I'm Galilean myself.   We have absolutely no problems understanding any other Levantine dialects, whether Palestinian or otherwise (with the exception of the occasional unknown word or phrase).  So I would say just do the best you can with whatever books you have available, and I'm sure your husband will "Galilize" your speech as necessary and appropriate. 


> is there any chance to get people to accept a mixture of fusha and dialect, possibly even dialects?


 As I said, we are generally understanding when foreigners mix the two, so don't sweat it.  It may sound strange, but as long as you can make yourself understood people won't give you a hard time about it.  They'll probably correct the most dissonant-sounding concoctions you come up with  but that'll only help you iron out such oddities and get as close to natural speech as you can.  I'm not sure what you mean by "possibly even dialects." 





> Is it a good idea to improve usage of dialectal arabic, and then have an easier time in reading fusha?


 If I understood your question correctly, you're asking whether it's a good idea to improve your knowledge of colloquial to have an easier time reading MSA.  I don't really think colloquial Arabic will do much to improve your ability to read MSA. 


Mahaodeh said:


> what I have noticed is that non-native speakers find the difference between fusHa and collequal great while native speakers in general don't.


 I think it depends, but this is a topic for another thread, I think. 


evanovka said:


> Still, it sounds very strange to use a fusha verb conjugation together with a dialect rest of the phrase, while it is not half as bad to use a dialect verb with a fusha object, for example. For my ears of a stranger, of course ... I really don't know if that counts!


 You are absolutely right!  Here's the deal: Generally, your speech is going to sound strange if your _matrix language_ is MSA and your _embedded language_ is colloquial.  Those are linguistic terms related to code-switching, which is what you're doing when you mix MSA and colloquial.  The matrix language is the dominant language in a discourse or a part thereof, and the embedded language is the one from which different codes are inserted into the matrix-language framework.  For a good summary of what the terms mean, read the first paragraph here.  (The second paragraph states that there are exceptions to the way things generally work, but that's hardly surprising in linguistics. )

Every language has different registers - colloquial and formal, among others - but what makes Arabic different from most other languages (what makes it a _diglossia_ language) is that the entire structure and makeup of colloquial Arabic is substantially different from that of MSA.  That's why it's _not_ just a question of register; the two varieties of the language have different structures and different sets of rules underlying their grammar (while at the same time having a lot in common, of course, which is why they are not considered two different languages despite their differences).  Because MSA is not the norm in everyday speech, utterances with MSA as the matrix language do sound out of place indeed. 





> I get corrected almost every time I use a fusha alternative, such as صديق instead of صاحب , or حجرة instead of غرفة, for example.


 I'm not surprised, as those are extremely common words so it sounds very odd to use an MSA word instead of the normal word.  But it would also sound odd (albeit less so) to use, say, the Syrian equivalent in the case of lexical divergence  (for example, رفيق for صاحب).  The more common a word is, the more likely it is that you'll be "corrected" if you use the equivalent from MSA or another dialect.


clevermizo said:


> It probably would sound strange to speak in a dialect and use the fus7a grammar for half of a sentence, unless you were trying to make a point by doing so.


 Indeed.  MSA grammar is rarely used in colloquial speech; it's mostly restricted to fixed expressions, sayings, etc. 





> But I'm finally competent enough in my speaking that I'm picking up a lot of the subtleties of when and how fus7a vocabulary finds itself in speech and I'm starting to find it's really wonderful to have almost the whole Arabic lexicon (barring obscurities that people won't understand) at your disposal.


 Bravo 3aleek  both on your competence and on your realization of the utility of the entire Arabic lexicon (in both varieties) in everyday speech. I think I touched on that a while back in a PM I sent you.


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## Pivra

I learn the "Juwaiti" dialect and fus7a at the same time so I have 2 notebooks one for Kuwaiti dialect vocabs.


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## GDAN

[Moderator's Note: Merged with a previous thread]
I came across an article by Dr. Wilmsen, a Director at the American University of Cairo that had a very different theory than the norm in regards to teaching westerners arabic.  It was too long to list so I'll sum it up.  According to Dr. Wilmsen westerners learn arabic in a completely opposite fashion than that of native speakers.  Arabs grow up learning their dialect at home and don't start learning fusHa until they enter school. (approx. age 5)   Non-natives are taught fusHa first, generally for about 3 terms before they are introduced to a dialect. (assuming their university has a dialect program)   If I understood his arguement correctly, diglossia, coupled with traditional methods of teaching puts students with 2 or more years of study under their belt in a position where they may be able to read a book but can't even participate in a simple, non-formal conversation.  He says the method should be reversed like the norms of other languages, speak first, read and write second.

Since I have noticed that there seems to be some very educated native speakers as well as knowledgeable non-native students in this forum, I would love to learn of your opinions about this.  Basically, would you suggest this method to non-arab learners of the language?


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## Ghabi

Naturally it has to depend on you purpose. There are many who can't care less about spoken Arabic, since their only goal is the perusal of texts.


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## Finland

I don't really agree totally with these arguments. Many foreign students learn dialect first and only then standard Arabic. It all depends on the individual's background, motivations and goals. And I don't necessarily think that either way is easier or more efficient than the other. I for one started by studying standard Arabic, and it is true that for the first two years I had a really hard time understanding anything from spoken conversations, but then again some acquaintances of mine started studying a dialect, and after two years they could speak just fine but were unable to read texts. I think it's a good idea to start with one, either dialect or standard, and then start slowly familiarising oneself more and more with the other. And diglossia is not a phenomenon unique to Arabic - basically the same situation exists with my mother tongue, Finnish.

The topic, however, is obviously always interesteing!

S


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## kcarnold

I took a year of Arabic at Cornell, where the instructor, Munther Younes, takes a non-standard approach. In his textbooks (I've used the Elementary and Intermediate -- Google him and you'll find them) and classes, listening and speaking is done in the Levantine dialect, while reading and writing is MSA. For both, the emphasis is comprehension and understandability over strict accuracy; for example, he strongly de-emphasizes the case system, which I hear is emphasized early on in more traditional classes. I think higher-level classes cover the case system and finer grammar points.

I still don't actually have it, but the Barrons' Fast and Fun Arabic book (see Amazon), written by my friend Ragy Ibrahim and Munther Younes, takes a similar philosophy with the Egyptian dialect.

With only a year, and that several years ago, it's hard to say how effective the approach is, as I'm still far from comfortable with Arabic (written or spoken, dialect or MSA). But with that qualification, I'd say I think the general approach is good, and much of the material is good but could use a lot of refinement to reach the level of the books for more commonly taught languages like Spanish or German. (Though that's probably true of all Arabic resources.) The one particular point of refinement I particularly encouaged Munther about most is guided at-home speaking practice -- which helped me immensely when I was learning Spanish. But that suggestion wouldn't even be relevant if the course were not teaching the real spoken language from the start.


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## Razin'

Hi

   Very interesting topic. I think it depends on your location and as Ghabi said, on the goal you seek through learning Arabic.

   Arabic 'native' speakers and Arabic learners are not in the same situation: While the former are surrounded by dialect speakers with whom they learn to communicate through their mother tongue (_darija _or _3ammiya_) ; arabic students are often learning Arabic in their countries and practicing the language with speakers from different countries, so learning FuSHa first is the evident choice since it's the only variety of Arabic that can be understood by any Arabic speaker.
Learning a specific dialect only allows you to communicate with speakers of that dialect. There are few exceptions such as Egyptian or Levantine, but I do have Tunisian friends that can't understand any sentence in Egyptian dialect.

    My point (I don't think I've made clear so far  ): it depends on the people you want to talk to, if you're around people that come from the same country or region, you'd better learn a dialect first. And if you have to communicate with speakers from different countries, or if you're more interested on reading the books and understanding the news, MSA would be the best choice to make.


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## kcarnold

Razin' said:


> learning FuSHa first is the evident choice since it's the only variety of Arabic that can be understood by any Arabic speaker.
> Learning a specific dialect only allows you to communicate with speakers of that dialect. There are few exceptions such as Egyptian or Levantine, but I do have Tunisian friends that can't understand any sentence in Egyptian dialect.



On the other hand, many movies and songs are Egyptian or Levantine, so people who can't understand those dialects are missing out on a lot more than just talking with you. An Egyptian friend reports the converse experience: having to read the English subtitles on a Tunisian movie. From what I hear, if you speak only Egyptian (perhaps also Levantine), most anyone will understand you but you might not understand them. Perhaps that's why Munther also had us _listen _to the MSA reading selections: in case of a severe dialect mismatch, our interlocutor could try to speak MSA and we'd be able to roughly understand them.

Your main point is strong and very valid: you can't just take an "Arabic" class; you must carefully consider what your goals are. But the original poster has a very good point also: for Arabic learners (like me) who want to talk naturally with ordinary people on the street more than they want to study formal texts, options are far too limited.


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## Andrew___

Razin' said:


> but I do have Tunisian friends that can't understand any sentence in Egyptian dialect.



I find that extremely surprising, and a little difficult to believe.  Are you sure that they maybe just didn't understand one sentence or two?   

I can't imagine a Tunisian going into an Egyptian film and not understanding what was said.  Now, as to me on the other hand...


----------



## Razin'

I'm really telling it as it is. I was surprised too when I first learned that there are a few classmates of mine who don't understand this dialect since I find it pretty easy myself. Well, they might understand a sentence if it's simple enough, but not a movie nor a song, for example. 
Not everybody is into Egyptian cinema, you know. This phenomenon is more common among the younger generation (people under 25, I would say) since most of them now care more about American and French cinema -and even Tunisian cinema- than Egyptian cinema, the same goes for music.


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## londonmasri

I spoke to an Egyptian guy once who said he couldn't understand a word of most other dialects especially the gulf/syrian/iraqi dialects.


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## Finland

Hello!


Razin' said:


> I'm really telling it as it is. I was surprised too when I first learned that there are a few classmates of mine who don't understand this dialect since I find it pretty easy myself. Well, they might understand a sentence if it's simple enough, but not a movie nor a song, for example.
> Not everybody is into Egyptian cinema, you know. This phenomenon is more common among the younger generation (people under 25, I would say) since most of them now care more about American and French cinema -and even Tunisian cinema- than Egyptian cinema, the same goes for music.


 
Exactly - I have come across this phenomenon a couple of times. Egyptian popular culture is losing ground in many areas, because other things appeal to certain segments of the society. That is how in many countries an arguably growing number of young people find themselves in a situation where they are mostly at home with their own dialect and English (and obviously the fus7a they learn at school). If they are not exposed to Egyptian, it is not a surprise they have a hard time understanding a lot of it!

S


----------



## GDAN

So Razin, would it be safe to say that you don't agree with the idea of teaching western students a dialect first?  If this is the case, and assuming I didn't read too much into what you were trying to say, would it be the result of young arabs losing interest in Egyptian films?  In other words, if the younger generation of arabs are more into foreign (American and French) films than Egyptian, or maybe Lebanese films as you say, then they aren't being exposed to other dialects unless they travel to other arabic speaking countries.  If that premise is true then it would make little sense to teach westerners a dialect since its just a matter of time before the younger generation of arabs will be forced to resort to english, french, or fusHa in order to communicate with arabs from other countries.


----------



## WadiH

Well, I've never been much into Egyptian movies myself.  Of course, there were many other avenues for my exposure to the Egyptian dialect other than the famous movies, but it was by no means extensive, and I had much more extensive contact with Syrian-type ("Levantine") dialects.  Still, by the time I became exposed to Egyptian movies I was already comfortable with Egyptian Arabic.

I think the situation with the young Tunisians above has a lot to do with the difference between Maghrebi and Mashriqi dialects, and I think the wide currency that Egyptian Arabic has in the eastern Arab world is not solely attributed to Egyptian media.


----------



## Razin'

GDAN said:


> So Razin, would it be safe to say that you don't agree with the idea of teaching western students a dialect first?  If this is the case, and assuming I didn't read too much into what you were trying to say, would it be the result of young arabs losing interest in Egyptian films?  In other words, if the younger generation of arabs are more into foreign (American and French) films than Egyptian, or maybe Lebanese films as you say, then they aren't being exposed to other dialects unless they travel to other arabic speaking countries.  If that premise is true then it would make little sense to teach westerners a dialect since its just a matter of time before the younger generation of arabs will be forced to resort to english, french, or fusHa in order to communicate with arabs from other countries.


I'm not saying that I totally disagree with teaching a dialect first. If you want to learn Arabic because you're going to work in Algeria, Jordan or Israel, I think it's better to learn the dialect in order to communicate immediately and naturally with people around you. But if you're in the Emirates or the USA and you have collegues speaking different Arab dialects, you should learn FuSHa first to "speak Arabic" to all of them, since they are already doing so themselves! (unless they accept to make an effort of adaptation vis-à-vis the other dialects).


----------



## Razin'

Wadi Hanifa said:


> I think the situation with the young Tunisians above has a lot to do with the difference between Maghrebi and Mashriqi dialects, and I think the wide currency that Egyptian Arabic has in the eastern Arab world is not solely attributed to Egyptian media.



That difference has always been there, and the partial incomprehension always worked in one way. But now It's slowly becoming more and more bilateral. Levantine and Egyptian dialects are still widely understood, but more and more young people (especially highly educated male students) are reluctant to Mashriqi culture nowadays.
Maybe because of a decline in quality concerning the Egyptian media, but that's another subject


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## GDAN

Razin, I think I misunderstood you.  Were you just talking about the younger generation of arabs in the maghrib and not all of the arab countries? (generally speaking of course)

The responses are throwing me off a bit because I've been given the impression that arabs don't use fusHa unless they're in a formal setting.  If a group made up of Saudis, Egyptians, Palestinians, and Tunisians are all going to speak fusHa instead of their native dialects, then I see why you would say learn fusHa first if you're to visit multiple countries instead of staying in just one.


----------



## Razin'

I'm talking about people in my country since I see them and talk to them everyday. I don't know If the phenomenon exists outside of the Maghreb, but I wouldn't be surprised if so.

Now, people with different Arabic dialects may use FuSHa, but sooner or later they will begin to use a mixture of FuSHa and simple dialect words, and maybe some english terms, as they get used to those dialects. They also may switch completely to one dialect within some time. But FuSHa allows an immediate comprehension between Arabic speakers.


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## elroy

We already have multiple threads on the following topics:

-whether a foreigner should learn MSA or a dialect
-how Arabs from different countries communicate with each other
-how universally comprehensible different dialects are

Please search the forum for previous discussions on these topics.

My understanding of the first post was that it was based on the assumption that a foreigner should learn both MSA and a dialect, and the discussion topic was about what the best pedagogical technique in that case would be.

I personally find the suggested approach quite interesting but I'm not sure it's necessarily more effective _per se_ than learning MSA first and then learning a dialect.  I think there's a lot more to effectively teaching Arabic than which variety you teach first.  Here on WRF, we have some very competent non-native speakers who are proficient in both MSA and a dialect; some of them started with MSA, while others started with a dialect.  This shows that it is possible to attain a high degree of proficiency in both varieites of the language regardless of which one you start with.  As I said, there is a lot more to it than that.


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## londonmasri

elroy said:


> I personally find the suggested approach quite interesting but I'm not sure it's necessarily more effective _per se_ than learning MSA first and then learning a dialect. I think there's a lot more to effectively teaching Arabic than which variety you teach first. Here on WRF, we have some very competent non-native speakers who are proficient in both MSA and a dialect; some of them started with MSA, while others started with a dialect. This shows that it is possible to attain a high degree of proficiency in both varieites of the language regardless of which one you start with. As I said, there is a lot more to it than that.


 
I have to agree with you Elroy. Nice post.


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## SalamSalam

[Moderator's Note: Merged with a previous thread]
السلام عليكم

First of all, I apologise in advance if this is in the wrong section.

OK well, I need some advice. To give some background info': I want some advice on how to further learn Arabic. I am of Arab origin and it might be possible to speak Arabic with Arabs around me, that may be a start! I recently took an official Arabic exam alhamdulillah, but cannot speak fluently (my Arabic could be described as more "mookesiruh"), and cannot understand Arabic books (though that is quite a big step in language learning, isn't it?). I have heard that watching Arabic series on TV may help, but do you have more advice?

I thought it'd be best to post this to Arabic speakers.

Thanks in advance.


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## Faylasoof

Hi SalamSalam!

Welcome! 

You are in the correct forum for sure! 

Firstly, what kind of Arabic are you after - fus7a / MSA or dialects, and if the latter, which dialect?

In the meantime you can have a look at this. Plenty to keep you busy!

BTW, what dooes this mean <_mookesiruh_> and which dialect? I assume it is from a dailect.


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## WadiH

Faylasoof said:


> BTW, what dooes this mean <_mookesiruh_> and which dialect? I assume it is from a dailect.



It's مكسّرة ("broken").


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## Faylasoof

Oh, it is so obvious now! Thanks WH!


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## SalamSalam

Faylasoof said:


> Hi SalamSalam!
> 
> Welcome!
> 
> You are in the correct forum for sure!
> 
> Firstly, what kind of Arabic are you after - fus7a / MSA or dialects, and if the latter, which dialect?



Fus7a to be honest, but if I go to an Arab country I'd want to communicate well with people there who speak the dialect of whichever country so that's where I thought Arab series may help? I heard that suggestion from somewhere..

Thanks for the link, too.



Wadi Hanifa said:


> It's مكسّرة ("broken").



That's right.


----------



## shafaq

SalamSalam said:


> السلام عليكم
> I have heard that watching Arabic series on TV may help, but do you have more advice?


و عليك السلام​Yes I have more !
Without enough aural background; it is too difficult to speak any language even if you know all the rules and words. All we have learned our native tongue just by listening but no other way. Then if you wish to master a language you must listen it a lot to dispatch the lack of aural background. It means listening a good many .But it must be passive listening; not active !
Now, I am supposing as if you say how ?!
Well ! It was so difficult in our times to obtain it. But todays it is so easy !  Just like a 20-30 $ !  Buy a cheap MP3 player (if you already don't have one; even 250 kB obsolute versions does) and a cheapest pair of computer speakers on the market and a pair of mini headset. Download podcasts in MP3 format from radio or tv broadcasting sites and load them into MP3 player. After than; just listen it repeatedly over and over as you walking, working and *sleeping*. Yes ! Sleeping !  Because it wil be real passvie listening (with a lowered volume) when you sleep. *Never try to understand*. Because it activates the analitic mind and dramatically lowers the expected benefit. For Arabic, listen MSA and dialects. After some 4-5 months you will encounter the miracle. I promise you ! (on condition that you perform what I say). If you need some help like where you find such like podcasts; I am ready to supply you with what I have. Or just try BBC's podcasts for example. By doing so, one can take giant steps toward the mastering on native and/or (especially) non-native languages. This method was used and still being in use for rapid learning a language by diplomats,spys and so on.


----------



## Abu Rashid

Try watching cartoons in Arabic. Generally the language is a little easier, and there's lots of them in fus7a. Not too many in 3ameeyah though, perhaps just a few in Egyptian.


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## haydy

abu rashid said:


> try watching cartoons in arabic. Generally the language is a little easier, and there's lots of them in fus7a. Not too many in 3ameeyah though, perhaps just a few in egyptian.


good idea


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## SalamSalam

shafaq said:


> Well ! It was so difficult in our times to obtain it. But todays it is so easy !  Just like a 20-30 $ !  Buy a cheap MP3 player (if you already don't have one; even 250 kB obsolute versions does) and a cheapest pair of computer speakers on the market and a pair of mini headset. Download podcasts in MP3 format from radio or tv broadcasting sites and load them into MP3 player. After than; just listen it repeatedly over and over as you walking, working and *sleeping*. Yes ! Sleeping !  Because it wil be real passvie listening (with a lowered volume) when you sleep. *Never try to understand*. Because it activates the analitic mind and dramatically lowers the expected benefit. For Arabic, listen MSA and dialects. After some 4-5 months you will encounter the miracle. I promise you! [...]



Interesting, thanks for that. Yes, if you could supply me with say a BBC Podcast first that'd be great but I'm quite unfamiliar with podcasts in general.. what are they? :$

And also, if one listens to a language for a long period of time and hears many new vocabulary they don't understand, if they keep listening to that for time and time, how would they eventually understand the meaning of the words without looking them up in a dictionary or something? Or is that the point?


----------



## shafaq

A podcast is a recording of any radio or tv program on any type of media to maintain it ready for listening or viewing on demand; especially made by radio or tv broadcasting corps.  Mostly they are free of charge. You may explore many sources by searching "podcast directory" on internet. Here is an example : BBC podcast directory. Please click on BBC Extra for Arabic podcasts and download freely. Also here is an other site hosting freely downloadable Arabic podcasts. These are just two examples where you may find many of them. Omit all online listening offers for not to waste your time. For listening please choose native speakers.
.  
Editing: Addin second part:
.
Before I go further; have to correct  my misexposition occured on "passive listening". The passive listening is not an alternative stand alone language learning way. It is just an unusual, mostly omited tool that speeds up conventional learning ways by doubling, tripling even quadrupling their efficacy. It is a catalyzer that can't be neglected. As I said in advance, without sufficient aural background; one can't speak a language fluently; can't pronounce words properly. Please take a moment and think on how you learned your native tongue... You were goodly speaking it when you are at 3 (when you lack an (fully working) analytic mind). Who taught you tenses and other grammar rules and pronounciation ? Simply no one ! You learned all of them just by passive listening and observing; which means "by the most natural method"...  The rate of contrubition for the observing here is some thing like %25-30 but it (observing) can't be discarded.
As an after learner in progressing ages; one can't achive similar success even if he lives in full of native speaking environment. Because; from now on; one has had an analitic mind which makes the learning more difficult by judgeing,reasoning and evaluating all things that encountered. Due to all conventional learning efforts are being done within consciousness ruled by analytic mind; it takes pretty long time to learn an other language leaving a big gap at the pronounciation. To overcome this; one needs the "passive listening" bypassing analytic mind. It must take place pretty before other conventional learning efforts -if it is possible-; to speed up it. Even if it isn't the case; still you benefit from it to get fluent in speaking, correct at pronounciation and thinking in target language. Especially for one who lacks chances to speak it. It is a magic forgotten. It maintains you what you lacks as a language learner and lets you include all of your times for learning. It lets you wondering how you speaking something -that you don't remember when you learn it- like a native speaker. It is tested and experienced.
.
You heard a commercial.


----------



## Faylasoof

Hello SalamSalam!
With all the good advice you are getting I thought I might add just a few more things. 

The audio for any language is essential but so are grammatical rules. We need both and for fus7a you'll need to learn a good deal of grammar. You said that fus7a is on your cards. So here is a thread that discusses some of the books we are using. One of my favourites is “A New Arabic Grammar of the Written Language” by Haywood and Nahmad. If you finish it then you’ll have a solid grounding and reach the intermediate level. There is also “Standard Arabic: an elementary-intermediate course” by Eckehard Schulz, Günther Krahl & Wolfgang Reuschel. I like this one too.

The fact you have may be able to speak Arabic with Arabs around you is a bonus. Don’t know which dialect(s) you are thinking of but there are many here too who would be available to help you. In the link I gave earlier you’ll find links to resources for dialects as well. Besides you can chase more by googling. 

There is this very useful site too. For Arabic (fus7a) you can use different levels for both listening and reading on various topics.


----------



## AndyRoo

I'm sorry Shafaq, but I doubt that passive listening is an effective method of learning a language. I think you need to put a lot of effort into understanding the meaning of what you are listening to. You could use transcripts, translations, dictionaries, pictures etc. I think that would lead to much faster progress than just passively listening to things you don't understand.

But if you have evidence that passive listening really works, it would be very interesting to see.


----------



## Faylasoof

AndyRoo said:


> I'm sorry Shafaq, but I doubt that passive listening is an effective method of learning a language. I think you need to put a lot of effort into understanding the meaning of what you are listening to. You could use transcripts, translations, dictionaries, pictures etc. I think that would lead to much faster progress than just passively listening to things you don't understand.
> 
> But if you have evidence that passive listening really works, it would be very interesting to see.



Couldn't agree more!! In fact one of the sites I found quite useful is GLOSS (Global Language Online Support) - second link in my post above. 

With an increasing understanding of the working knowlegde of Arabic one finds the simultaneous reading and listening of texts there as a very helpful learning tool. But one has to know the grammar, morphology and syntax.


----------



## SalamSalam

shafaq said:


> A podcast is a recording of any radio or tv program on any type of media to maintain it ready for listening or viewing on demand; especially made by radio or tv broadcasting corps.  Mostly they are free of charge. You may explore many sources by searching "podcast directory" on internet. Here is an example : BBC podcast directory. Please click on BBC Extra for Arabic podcasts and download freely. Also here is an other site hosting freely downloadable Arabic podcasts. These are just two examples where you may find many of them. Omit all online listening offers for not to waste your time. For listening please choose native speakers.



Shukran jazeelan for such a long post, it is very much appreciated. I've never heard of this before, but it seems interesting and I see where you're coming from - although I agree with your edit, it doesn't seem like a  stand-alone way to learn a language completely, just something additional that may benefit someone a lot.


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## Outlandish

Sorry if I gave my opinion before Shafaq could do it, but yes! Shafaq's method works magic with me, it's amazing and I was surprised to see that somebody could learn the same way I did.


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## shafaq

A last word on "passive listening" in "beleive it or leave it" taste:
. I had studied some Arabic grammar in middle school and that is all in my life as Arabic education. After years when I first time heard Arabic speaking people; bet with my companion on that they are speaking Bulgarian. Thank God and than a pocket radio receiver (instead of recent MP3 players for "passive listening"); without any further course or sthg like that in any manner; after 5 months I became official translator of an Arabic firm. The story goes on and I think is sufficient for whom it concerns.
Happy passive listenings for all !


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## Faylasoof

Shafaq, I can well believe what you say about learning by listening. As I said above, audio input for language learning is important but so is the grammar. However, let me add that there are people who are “listen and learn” type. In fact, as children that is how we learn but I think majority of adults don’t manage well by listening alone. Most of us -I’m certainly one of them - need to look at the written words to remember them. I can recall fairly long passages but only after I have seen them, be it only once or twice, and almost never by just hearing them – pictographic memory they call it, as opposed to an audio based memory. In ancient times this was _the way_ knowledge was passed on to the next generation. Purely oral transmission so there were people who learnt just by listening even as adults. They still exist but you still need to know the logic of a sentence. 

I’m more like a _read and learn_ type rather than a _listen and learn_ type though listening is something I emphasize very much. In either case one needs to understand the relationship between words – the whole purpose of grammar. That is why the best courses are those that do both grammar written exercises as well as audio & oral.

BTW, some people claim they find talking to themselves very useful when learning a new language! They say it helps a lot. At least this was _one _of the ways Ziad Fazah – purportedly the greatest living polyglot - says he learnt languages and keeps up with all the languages he knows.


----------



## SalamSalam

Outlandish said:


> Sorry if I gave my opinion before Shafaq could do it, but yes! Shafaq's method works magic with me, it's amazing and I was surprised to see that somebody could learn the same way I did.


Interesting..


shafaq said:


> A last word on "passive listening" in "beleive it or leave it" taste:
> I had studied some Arabic grammar in middle school and that is all in my life as Arabic education. After years when I first time heard Arabic speaking people; bet with my companion on that they are speaking Bulgarian. Thank God and than a pocket radio receiver (instead of recent MP3 players for "passive listening"); without any further course or sthg like that in any manner; after 5 months I became official translator of an Arabic firm. The story goes on and I think is sufficient for whom it concerns.
> Happy passive listenings for all !


Thanks for your input to this thread, and interesting that you became an official translator in the way you described masha' Allah.


Faylasoof said:


> Shafaq, I can well believe what you say about learning by listening. As I said above, audio input for language learning is important but so is the grammar. However, let me add that there are people who are “listen and learn” type. In fact, as children that is how we learn but I think majority of adults don’t manage well by listening alone. Most of us -I’m certainly one of them - need to look at the written words to remember them. I can recall fairly long passages but only after I have seen them, be it only once or twice, and almost never by just hearing them – pictographic memory they call it, as opposed to an audio based memory. In ancient times this was the way knowledge was passed on to the next generation. Purely oral transmission so there were people who learnt just by listening even as adults. They still exist but you still need to know the logic of a sentence.


I know this answer wasn't directed at me but it's an interesting point you bring up with "photographic  memory" and "auditory memory". And interesting about the talking to yourself idea, it seems to sound quite effective.

Thank you everybody for your input to this thread, some great advice has been given!


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## HBZ55

I found that the best way to learn a language is by studying a little grammar, and then following it by an enormous stream of subtitled TV series, movies, sitcoms, etc... At least that was what helped me with learning English. I admit that I'm still way behind on my active use of the language, but I now find English as easy to understand as Arabic.


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## gsc

Some interesting thoughts and ideas here. I often fall asleep listening to my audio lessons and wonder if any of it sinks in that way.

I would like to try downloading stuff to listen to but I am primarily interested in Egyptian Arabic. Can anyone suggest the best place for downloads?


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## Muwahid

OK, So I'm now getting serious in my 3arabi studies. I have a fluent person teaching me, and is basically guarantees me I can learn the language to an extent that I can understand it and respond to people in a basic level (not "fluent" per se, but enough to communicate). So what he is telling me is, basically beef up on vocabulary, for example he says if I can learn 300-500 of the most common words used in addition to him immersing me in the language, and basic grammatical guidance, that within say, 3-6 months, I can be at a level in which I can speak with native speakers, understand arabic TV, et cetera.

To me this method seems unconventional, but in any of your experiences has something like this helped you, or got you at a level of understanding atleast? I once heard a fluent, non-native speaker needs around 5,000 vocabulary words memorized while a fluent native speaker usually has double that (10,000 words).


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## AndyRoo

Hello Muwahid,

Unfortunately, learning 500 words won't get you very far, no matter if they are the most common words.

If you want to understand authentic material you will need at least 10,000 words plus probably an equal number of collocations/expressions/idioms. Even then you'd still find plenty you don't understand.

People underestimate how hard it is to learn a language.


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## clevermizo

Muwahid said:


> OK, So I'm now getting serious in my 3arabi studies. I have a fluent person teaching me, and is basically guarantees me I can learn the language to an extent that I can understand it and respond to people in a basic level (not "fluent" per se, but enough to communicate).



Well I'm sure you can, but no one can guarantee anything, although I'm sure you are guaranteed to pay him. Did he do some sort of initial assessment or does he guarantee that anyone he tutors will have basic competency after 6 months? Because that can vary a lot, and learning Arabic is usually harder for a speaker of a European language, than say learning a European language is** (**a tenuous statement in its own right).



> So what he is telling me is, basically beef up on vocabulary, for example he says if I can learn 300-500 of the most common words used in addition to him immersing me in the language, and basic grammatical guidance, that within say, 3-6 months, I can be at a level in which I can speak with native speakers, understand arabic TV, et cetera.


I doubt it. That's a very short period of time and when it comes to language, 500 words is like a handful of words. 

You'll definitely be able to say something, but if you want to get serious, why assume you're going to learn anything in any specific amount of time? Deadlines are useful, but you may find that if you are still not capable of understanding TV after 6 months you will just get discouraged. Instead of that, how about you set yourself a year goal to complete a beginners course with him, not assuming any sort of guarantees? 

The only thing that matters is that you practice and study, _every day_. Even a little bit; especially when you first start out. I used to tutor Spanish and I had a lot of people try to meet with me once a week without any other instruction. I told them they needed to practice every day or actually join a class additionally. What ends up happening is that you never reach a "threshold" at which you retain information. They'd come one week to the next but finally they wouldn't remember most basic things time and again.

Also learning words in context is really the best. It's a natural mnemonic. Memorizing lists I doubt works very well. At least not for me. I'm really bad at rote memorization.

There's a reason these courses at university level are 5 days a week typically.



> To me this method seems unconventional,


...and I wouldn't put much stock in it. Yes immersion is good, and yes you should learn the 500 commonest words.... in fact you should learn in far excess of that. And you shouldn't expect to have attained any level after 6 months to be honest. I would start with a year at least, with constant practice.



> but in any of your experiences has something like this helped you, or got you at a level of understanding atleast?


I just started studying, without any sort of expectation, so I don't know. I have no idea how many words I know.



> I once heard a fluent, non-native speaker needs around 5,000 vocabulary words memorized while a fluent native speaker usually has double that (10,000 words).


That sounds about right.


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## Muwahid

Pay? he's family! Haha, he came to the USA (and is telling me my 3arabi is at the same level where his English was when he came here) and never took English lessons but basically was self immersed into the language, and I'd dare any of you to tell me he has any real accent in English. I don't study everyday, but I have a lesson and study everyday, I have good grammatical skills (especially in Fus-Ha) but my vocabulary is definitely lacking significantly. I probably have a few hundred words under my belt now, however they are all "proper" or Fus-Ha words, so hearing the average speaker is more difficult for me to understand. Thankfully 3arabi isn't something "foreign" to me, meaning I'm use to it, I can speak it with no real accent, the problem is I wasn't formally immersed into it since living in the west. 

The idea he has is basically give me the bare essentials, and then I can understand maybe 50% of the conversation, but from that pick up new words, new meanings, more grammar from listening. When I said 3-6 months I didn't mean lessons end right there I'm a fluent speaker, rather that I should have a firm understanding and concept of the language enough to communicate my way out of a wet paper bag. I would never stop 3arabi studies not even in ten years (I heard 3arabi has 9 million words (lowest estimate) and the highest estimate was 15 million words!).


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## clevermizo

Well the situation for language learning is quite different when you come from a background of exposure to the language vs. no background at all. My comments above were based on the assumption that you had _no experience with Arabic at all whatsoever_. Obviously, I don't know you, so without clarification I had no way to know that you had already had potentially years of experience with Arabic. I apologize for my joke implying your family member was potentially trying to swindle you.

If you are a heritage speaker of Arabic you can expect that with some dedicated work you will learn it a lot faster than a non-native speaker who has never had any exposure. In that case I wish you the best of luck.

Also when you say you don't study every day, but yet have a lesson and study every day.....that doesn't make much sense, so I don't really know what you mean. My point was that at the beginning you should try to expose yourself to Arabic in study every day if possible.


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## AndyRoo

Muwahid said:


> The idea he has is basically give me the bare essentials, and then I can understand maybe 50% of the conversation, but from that pick up new words, new meanings, more grammar from listening.


 
I think this is an idea that looks good on paper, but in practice is unworkable. Obviously you don't want to be learning completely obscure vocabulary (e.g. from poems), but most newspaper vocabulary, for example, would be useful. Unfortunately the words that carry the meaning are often the less common ones.

I would suggest you go through newspaper articles (or something similar which interests you) with your teacher. You'll automatically pick up the common vocabulary and you'll have a context to help you remember and understand the vocabulary.

And listen as much as possible!


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## londonmasri

I was watching a vid the other day and saw this:

There are approxiamately 40 000 roots in Arabic.

If you learn 3000 roots, and 900 phrases, you achieve 'fluency'. Whether this is correct or not, I think people overestimate how difficult it is to learn a language IMO.

It doesn't have to take years to learn a language. I can think of at least one instance in which a writer learnt English in 6 months and then wrote a book in that language. We limit ourselves more than any external factor.

Just my opinion.


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## Muwahid

> Also when you say you don't study every day, but yet have a lesson and study every day.....that doesn't make much sense, so I don't really know what you mean. My point was that at the beginning you should try to expose yourself to Arabic in study every day if possible.



I don't only study everyday ... Meaning I do more than study daily.



> I think this is an idea that looks good on paper, but in practice is unworkable. Obviously you don't want to be learning completely obscure vocabulary (e.g. from poems), but most newspaper vocabulary, for example, would be useful. Unfortunately the words that carry the meaning are often the less common ones.



I agree, but this is where the immersion aspect comes in I believe. If I can have a basic conversation then hear a word or two I didn't get, I can just ask (or get it depending on context, like I would do if I hear an English word I'm not familiar with). I'll give it a few months and come back to you guys and either say "You were right!" or rub it in your faces heh heh, kidding of course. I do believe it depends on your motivation as londonmasri has said, one who wants to go for a few times a week to learn a language, take practice as homework (boring, a job to do..etc) instead of something you do because you want, this wont get you anywhere, as I saw with my four years of study in Spanish. My problem is probably in one aspect of Arabic I know I could probably teach natives a thing or two about grammar, but then in vocabulary, dialects, and so on, is my major weakpoint. I'm more skeptical that 300 - 500 words is too little, albeit I already have many (more proper) words under my belt. If I can start understanding news articles and TV in a few months that's what I consider a success.


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## AndyRoo

Muwahid said:


> If I can start understanding news articles and TV in a few months that's what I consider a success.


 
If you can do that, it will truly be impressive. Please do come back and gloat!


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## Ceca90

Hi everyone, I am new here and I am thinking of studying Arabic? So, is it hard for one Serbian to learn it?


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## AndyRoo

Hello Ceca. Welcome to the forum

I think learning any language is a difficult thing. Or rather, it is very time-consuming - it's a lifelong task and you have to make sure you do it the right way (e.g. listening and learning from context).

I don't think Arabic is any easier or harder than any other language in itself. The problem is how different it is from your language. I should imagine that Arabic is very different from Serbian and so that will make it harder/take more time.

I think the hardest part about Arabic is its vocabulary - it seems to go on forever. Plus you have the issue of diglossia, where there is one written form of Arabic, but many spoken dialects.

Arabic grammar is very logical and quite easy to understand, though the finer points can be difficult sometimes.

I recommend Arabic! It's a very beautiful language and has a long history.


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## Ceca90

Thanks 

Well Serbian has two types, but more important is Cyrillic, we use Latin too... Yes it is big difference :S but its ok for me, I really think Arabic is very interesting language and could be really nice studying it, but I am worried about alphabet, they are unique, I dont know whats the easiest way to learn alphabet and the way you write it, maybe some link could help 
Yay! for easy grammar.


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## AndyRoo

You don't need to worry about the Arabic alphabet too much. There are only 28 letters (though they change shape a bit when joining together) and it can be learned very quickly. 

I suggest you look here:
http://www.naturalarabic.com/free_article.php?artid=10150
to learn the alphabet

and here:
http://www.stanford.edu/dept/lc/arabic/alphabet/alphabet.html
to see how to write the letters.


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## Ceca90

Ah thanks a lot really I was looking for something like that you gave me, but I couldnt find. I saw up here Arabic but letters like latin, is that like we have in Serbian, so people use both types?


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## AndyRoo

I'm not exactly sure how you do it in Serbian, but really Arabic people only use Arabic letters to write. They're only using the latin letters here because they're writing on an English speaking forum. Sometimes they use latin letters to write SMS (text) messages, but I think that's about it.

The latin script can be useful to make the pronunciation clear. There are lots of different conventions, some of which use numbers, which is explained in post no. 4 here: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=53282 

Actually, Arabic is almost 100% phonetic, but to make it so you should show the small vowel markings (which are normally omitted).These can be fiddly to write and difficult to see and you have to swap your keyboard over - so sometimes it's simpler to write in the latin script.


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## Muwahid

Do not fear the alphabet! In fact, most can learn to read-write Arabic to an extent within days of study, because like AndyRoo said, it's a very phonetic system, it's a matter of simply memorizing the script, however not knowing the words (unlike English for example) makes it rather difficult to pronounce since most modern Arabic works do not have vowel markings (Arabic generally separates vowels from consonants; with the exception of long vowels (difference between "Boo/بو" and "Bu/بُ") which can be used both as long vowels and consonants based on the word), but if you know the word and how to read and write it, when you see it you recognize it quickly like any other language. Personally I can't see learning Arabic without learning to read and write it, especially because correct pronunciation is crucial; Arabic contains many subtle differences for example (S-sound) "ص" versus "ش" for an English native the difference is too subtle to notice, since English combines the two sounds indiscriminately, but "ش" has the equivalent sound to "So" in English, where the mouth is looser and the S sound is less intense, where as "ص" has the equivalent S-sound as "Sword" in English, where the mouth is narrower, making a more whistling and intense S-sound.

And of course, Arabic is the funnest to do Art and Calligraphy with, since it's a nice cursive language


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## AndyRoo

Hi Muwahid!

You're back! How is the studying going? It'd be great to hear if your system is working


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## nos-falasteeniyah

[Moderator's Note: Merged with a previous thread]
because i am trying to learn quickly to be able to communicate with my many family members who do not speak english and they laugh at me when i say anything in fusha. some people tell me to learn fusha first then palestinian / fala7i dialect. what do you all think? also any suggestions in learning quickly? we have the arabic satelite tv which i learn alot from the syrian shows. i am having a tough time learning on my own though and do not have anyone in my family to sit with regularly to teach me either. any suggestions greatly appreciated. jazak allah khair


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## ellypunk88

Hi,
I'm studying Arabic too and i would suggest you to buy this book:" Al-Kitaab fi Taallum al-Arabiyya"you can find it on Amazon.
It was really useful for me as it contains also DVDs with people speaking, so this can help you in understanding and pronunciation.
I've spent some time in Damascus last year and Syrian dialect isn't much different from al-fusha,so I think learning fusha can help you as well.


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## Muwahid

أهلا 

Fus7a al-3asr is the standardized way of speaking, with it all the necessary grammatical rules, and I believe most dialects are directly derived from Fus7a. If you speak with your family in Fus7a they will surely understand it. I teach myself Fus7a and I have natives teaching me 3amiyya (Jordanian Dialect) and I can distinguish between the two quite easily. But what I found, especially in the more rural places, the people follow no real grammatical rules, they'll ignore feminine/masculine rules, pronounce things differently, so when learning the dialect from them, it's difficult for them to make sense of it to me, because they themselves aren't following the rules strictly. That's why I opted to learn strict formal Fus7a along with dialectical, and conversational Arabic. 

If you understand Fus7a I don't think understanding Palestinian would be too much different, like ellypunk88 is saying, the Levant area speaks relatively close to Fus7a, the most major changes I've seen were, for example, Syrians, Palestinians, Egyptians, replace the qaaf letter to sound like the hamza, like Qaala becomes 'aala, Jordanian, the Qaaf becomes a 'G' sound, Metraqa becomes Metraga, so if I were you try your hardest to make these distinctions otherwise you'll be scratching your head over words you normally know, but because of the dialect you don't make it out. Also, take note of verb conjugations, these can vary majorly, for example some dialects will use a 'b' sound for verbs rather than the standard way, those confused me the most when listening to natives.

In my opinion, if you're going to learn a dialect, not knowing at least intermediate Fus7a grammatical rules, it will be much much harder, just because of confusion, unless you want to just memorize phrases and not know why you're saying it like that, then you can gloss over rules, but then you'll just feel like a tourist.


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## Abu Rashid

> and I believe most dialects are directly derived from Fus7a.



Not necessarily. There's ample evidence to suggest they've always existed alongside it.


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## Noam X

[Moderator's Note: Merged with a previous thread]
Does anyone have any advice for someone attempting to learn the Arabic alphabet? 

I've been using the book "Arabic Alphabet" (Nicholas Awde) which was recommended to me, but I still find myself making little progress. Learning the Hebrew alphabet was nowhere near as difficult; perhaps it's just the various forms and the cursive nature of Arabic which is throwing me off.

Is there any other method but pure rote memorization that any of you ArabicSL folks used?


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## Sidjanga

At least in the beginning, I found it somewhat easier to accustom my brain to reading the Arabic script than what I rememnber from the same process with Hebrew. (I think this was basically due to the fact that in Arabic there's more difference in letter hight).

But yes, then there comes a phase when you seem to make little progress and struggle with getting really fluent. 
I think this is not so much to do with the various forms the Arabic letters take according to their position within a word, but rather with the fact that several letter groups share the same basic shape with the only difference being one or more dots somewhere.

From my experience, writing a lot yourself - and rereading what you've written - helps a lot.


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## Abu Fahm

[Moderator's Note: Merged with a previous thread]
اريد سؤال أعضاء المنتدة العزاء غير العرب عن مراحل وسبل تعلّمهم. فانا مثلا لم اتعلّم العربية سواء عن طريق الجامعة ام عن طريق المدارس. إنّي تعلّمت كل شيء  بتدريس وتدريب نفسي. إنّ السبب اسألكم هذا راجع إلى تعليقات  بعض تلاَمذ اللغة العربية على منتدة واحدة، كانوا يناقشون عندئذ صعوبة اللغة العربية وتعقيد تعلّمها. فاحد منهم علّق إنّه من المستحيل تعليم النفس لغة صعبة كالعربية، فبالتالي كنت أعتبر نفسي فريدا من نوع متعلّمين العربية لاَنّي تعلّمت بنفسي بدون مساعدة إلا هذه المنتدة وغيرها من موارد موجودة على إنترنت.

إنّي اريدكم أن تعلّقون على هذا الموضوع  بخصوص تجريباتكم المتنوع في هذا المجال. هل أخذتم خطواتكم الأولى في تعلّم العربية من خلال إنتماءكم إلى كلية اللغات تبعة للجامعة او اية مؤسسة تعليمية أخرة ام من خلال طريقكم الخص مشيتم طواله قاصدين مستوى متفوقة في إستخدام هذه اللغة.

سواء كانت دراساتكم خصة ام جامعية كم من الوقت إستغرقت حتى وصولكم إلى مستوى عالية من اللغة؟ انا طبعا أدرك إنه من الصعب تحديد معنى "مستوى عالية" ولكننا نستطيع ان نقول إنّ مستوى عالية هي مرحلة تقدرون فيها على قراءة روايات ادابية ومقالات صحفية بدون اية مشاكل وقلة لجأ إلى قاموس.
شكور من صميم فؤادي على تعليقاتكم


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## Qatari

عن طريق المدارس بشكل عام
ومن قراءة الكتب و الكتب و الشعر

أنصحك بقراءة وفهم متن الآجرومية فهي من أهم المتون لغهم اللغة العربية

http://www.al-eman.com/islamlib/viewchp.asp?BID=392&CID=1


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## Masjeen

لا أعتقد أن هناك أحد يمكنه أن يتعلم اللغة العربية بنفسه من دون معلم.. هذا تقريبا شبه مستحيل بالنسبة للغربيين.. يمكنه أن يتسلى بتعلمها لكن لن يستمر..   اللغة العربية ليست مثل باقي اللغة الأوروبية المتشابهة من بعضها البعض.. اللغة العربية  تختلف بكل شيء وفي كل شيء


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## Abu Fahm

كما قلته انا شخصيا علّمت نفسي يا خوي، طبعا قدرتي اللغوية ليست كاملة كما هي عند البعض، ولكن سوف تستكمل عن قريب إن شاء اللّه. صحيح كانت تجريبتي صعبة شئا ما غير ان ذهاب إلى قول إنّه من المستحيل تعلّم بنفس ليس صحيحا


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## AndyRoo

درست اللغة العربية في الجامعة ولكن بعد التخرج كان ما يزال من الصعب عليّ أن أقرأ الجريدة باللغة العربية فأقمت أربع سنوات في سلطنة عمان ولكن في شركة بريطانية ولم أجد الفرصة أن أستخدم اللغة إلا نادرًا فبقيت قدرتي فيها ضعيفة.وبعد ذلك نسيت اللغة لسنوات وفكرت أن الأمر قد انتهى، ولكن أصبحت مدرسًا للغة الإنكليزية وكان لا بد من خلال عملي أن أفكر في الأساليب المختلفة لتعليم اللغات فقررت إعادة النظر في اللغة العربية . فوجدت مدرسًا خاصًا ولكن لسوء الحظ كان يصر أن يتكلم نفسه طول الوقت دون أن أنبس ببنت شفة فطردته .

أخيرًا ... وجدت طريقة تصلح طابعي وهي أن أجد مقالة أو قصة عربية قصيرة تعجبني وأترجمها بمساعدة سيدة عربية لطيفة إلى اللغة الانكليزية ثم أسجل السيدة وهي تقرأ المقالة . عندي المئات من هذه المقالات الآن وأستطيع أن أتذكر تقريبًا كل كلمة من كل مقالة.

أعتقد أن المهم في هذه الطريقة هو أن أرى الكلمات في سياق طبيعي وكذلك أسمع اللغة لكي أعتاد موسيقاها.


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## Abu Fahm

تعليقك ممتع يا أندي ويبدو إنّ تجريبتك شابهة تجريبتي من بعض النواحي. أخذت أتعلّم العربية قبل حوالي ستة سنين بصورة غير رأسميةاي بدون مناهج تعليمية معيّنة. كأولى خطوة تعلّمت الأبجدية عن طريق كتب لأطفل ثم تدريجيا تعلّمت بعض القواعد للكتابة والقراءة. كنت استمر في دراستي لعدّة سنوات بصورة متقطعة فكان من الصعب متابعتها وليس هناك أحد يشجعني.صحيح إنّه لأكثر من مرّة توقّفت ولكنّي إستأنفت دائما ولم أستلم ابدا ولو كان شبه مستحيل، كما قاله اخ مسجين، ان احقّق هدفي. حاولت ان اتعلّم من كل مكان، من كتب مدرسية ومنتدات كهذه، وفوق هذا كله، كنت من غاية واقح، و إقتربت من كل إبن او بنت عرب عثرت علهم في شوارع مدن سكنت فيها، و حاطبتهم بدون اي خجل او حرج بطريقة متقطعة ومكسورة ولكن قد ساعدتني هذة طريقة التصرّف في تحقيق ما حببته.


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## إسكندراني

شخصيا نشأت في عائلة مصرية لكن فترة شبابي أقضيتها في انجلترا فمن ناحية العامية فهي لغتي الأم لكن الفصحى وافتهام بقية اللهجات فكان من خلال الإحتكاك القليل المتاح والأهم من ذلك في رأيي من خلال قرائة القرآن الكريم وبعض المكتوبات البسيطة مثل مجلات ميكي والكتب القصيرة والمغامرات فشيئا بشيء اوصلت تلك القطبين في المستوىٰ من خلال الإطلاع على ويكيبيديا العربية والجرايد والمواقع والفضائيات - والإستماع أهم من كل شيء ليتاح للمرؤ مجالا للتفكّر


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## kalmarunion

[Moderator's Note: Merged with a previous thread]
My goal is to learn Arabic (MSA initially) after my BA, but I figured I'd start it off  now in my spare time. Since I won't have much time, only a few hours a  week, I was wondering what the best way to go about it would be. My idea  was to become comfortable with the script (reading and writing),  perhaps pronunciation, as well as the very basics of grammar. That way I  can jump straight in after my BA and learn at a quick pace, with full  dedication.

So, any tips for going about learning the very basics of Arabic when I only have very little time? And specific ideas for resources?


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## Qureshpor

My suggestion would be for you to master the Arabic script in the spare time that you have at the moment. One thing I must impress upon you is whole "word recognition", avoiding the dependence upon the inclusion of the short vowels. In normal everyday Arabic, short vowels are not indicated. So, an Arabic reader applies his/her knowledge of word patterns and grammar to "fill in" the vowels as the script is being read. All this will make more sense to you when you begin learning the script. But, as an example, if we look at the following word... (I did have another good example in mind, but unfortunately I can't recall it at the moment). This is how you would see the printed word.

كفر  kfr

But, this could be, "kufr" (disbelief), "kafr" (small village) or "kafar" (rubber tyre).


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## إسكندراني

1/ Read and write the Alphabet proficiently.
2/ Pronouns in all tenses, some of the basic joining words
3/ Decline regular verbs
those are the main steps to beginning to recognise what's going on, and should help accelerate you once you begin.


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## AndyRoo

I think it is very important you have audio right from the beginning. You could try http://www.madinaharabic.com - there is a lot of information here and most comes with audio.


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## إسكندراني

This course I've had a look at before, and it's good to start off with but I found it gruellingly slow as it went on! I suppose it wasn't designed for the internet.


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## Tracer

kalmarunion said:


> So, any tips for going about learning the very basics of Arabic when I only have very little time? And specific ideas for resources?


Given your time restrictions and the "spare time" you'll have to devote to learning beginning Arabic, I'm going to suggest another path for your initial, and I guess, introductory "confrontation" with Arabic.

To wit, I think you should start with a "dialect" and forget MSA for the moment. Here's why:

1. All, not most, *all* native Arabic speakers first spoke a dialect of Arabic and only later on, either at home, in grade school or in high school, did they take up the study of MSA. There's no reason, in my opinion, why a non-native speaker of Arabic should reverse this process.

_(Of course, the reality is that native speakers living in the Middle East really grow up speaking a dialect but surrounded by MSA so by the time they take up the "formal" study of MSA, they're already very familiar with it.....a kind of linguistic osmosis)_

2. A very frustrating element of learning MSA at the expense of total neglect of a dialect is that one day, you'll realize that no one really speaks MSA on a daily basis so that even the simplest common phrases in any language, like "Don't do that" will be beyond your ken.

SideBar: _*Of course, you might be able to "say" "Don't do that" in MSA, but if you go around speaking MSA say, in Cairo, you risk being chased around Midan Tahreer by a gang of wild children throwing rocks and pebbles at you, jeering and mocking you.*_

3. No matter how attractive publishers try to make their MSA texts appear, the fact remains they all remind me of textbooks teaching *Differential Equations or Non-Euclidian Geometry.* What this leads to is often an overwhelming sense of "impossibility" with eventual abandonment of the project.

4. I really don't think you can make any but the most minimal (and ultimately useless)  progress in MSA given your time limits. It's going to require much more focus than a "spare time" approach.

*Therefore, I strongly suggest that you trot on over to your local bookstore and pick up a course on "Colloquial Arabic" that comes with a CD, DVD or tapes so that you can hear how Arabic is spoken. Any dialect is ok, though "Levantine" or Egyptian are your best bets. (I'd stay away from Moroccan and other "western" Arabic dialects for the moment, unless that's the area you plan to eventually head to).*

5. Remember that even to this day, there is ...._Je ne sais pas comme le dire_.......a minimizing and even disdain of the "colloquials" by many native speakers, particularly if you're a foreigner trying to learn Arabic. Almost to a man and woman, they're going to push that you start your Arabic with MSA since that's the only "proper Arabic".

Don't listen to 'em.

Once you start full-time with Arabic, then I again strongly suggest that you study both MSA and an appropriate colloquial at the same time. They differ substantially at the "beginning levels", but the more sophisticated the subject matter discussed becomes, the more they tend to merge into one.

For example, almost all groups of dialects use a different term for the basic word "What?" and pronounce the word for "water" differently, but when using an "advanced" term like "The Middle East", they all say the same thing with only slight variations in the "accent".

Sidebar 2: _*Careful with the word "accent". Among the less linguistically inclined, it's used to mean "dialect" so you often might hear the exclamation: "Oh, he speaks with a Jordanian accent" when what is really meant is the Jordanian "dialect". (I don't think there's such a thing as a "Jordanian accent")*_

Good luck


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## إسكندراني

Tracer said:


> SideBar: _*Of course, you might be able to "say" "Don't do that" in MSA, but if you go around speaking MSA say, in Cairo, you risk being chased around Midan Tahreer by a gang of wild children throwing rocks and pebbles at you, jeering and mocking you.*_


Wild children?! I am starting to wonder what traumatising experiences you endured in your early stages of Arabic education!


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## Qureshpor

I have had the good fortune and pleasure of travelling in several Arab countries all the way from the east to the extreme west. I have tried to put into practice my "bookish" (MSA) Arabic with varying degrees of success. I must also add that at no time did I ever feel that the "natives" were making fun of my feeble attempts at communicating with them in a non-colloquial setting. On the contrary, they were somewhat amazed at hearing a foreigner stringing together, on occasions, quite complex sentences which they could actually understand. My problem was n't that I could n't make them understand but, the difficulty arose in the opposite direction. It was I who could not quite follow their replies at their pace!

Having said all this, I do not know much about the colloquials. So, I can not recommend one over the other.


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## Abu Fahm

I started first with MSA, but then soon realized that i had learn a dialect and MSA together in order to be able enjoy the language. When you live in non arab country you will come across arab emigrants from different countries speaking different dialects so you may end up learning at least couple of dialects to be able to understand majority speakers. I would suggest learning Iraqi and Egyptian. This will most likely allow you to understand Levantine dialects and gulf dialects. In retrospect, if I didnt learn MSA right away I doubt I would have continued with arabic because knowing how to read allowed me with various success read kids books in the beginning various texts and stories for beginners eventually culminating in my ability to read anything, book, news. Learning dialect to a level where you can understand dialect media like soap operas and movies will take a very long time  mainly due lack of resources in dialects. You would be able to say basic things, but you wont have the depth of vacabulary required to understand a real conversation. I have spent about 6 or 7 years of on and off study of both MSA and dialects (all that I could get my hands on) and know I can read everything and understand in various degrees most dialects excluding western ones which I dont know much about. I can understand Iraqi the best with my understandin reducing with the distance away from Iraq. So my advice is learn the script. start with learning dialect and basics of MSA the two will work together to help  you read basic texts. This will help you to stay with arabic and not leave it because it is easy to get bored.


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## Muwahid

> SideBar: Of course, you might be able to "say" "Don't do that" in MSA, but if you go around speaking MSA say, in Cairo, you risk being chased around Midan Tahreer by a gang of wild children throwing rocks and pebbles at you, jeering and mocking you.



Obviously you're being sarcastic! However, if you were to speak MSA in my experiences you'll be well understood especially for non-Arabs (if an Arab is speaking MSA in informal contexts you might get a few awkward glances).

This is why I feel MSA should be taught first, you can speak to everyone - and other Arabs can switch to MSA to communicate back to you. Plus there's just a plethora of content in MSA from Media to the net you'll never run out of practice material. Dialects vary so much, you can go to the next town and hear a different dialect. So it's hard to study them when you're not there immersed in it. But in the end I feel dialects are as equally important to learn as MSA.


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## Ustaath

Tracer said:


> Sidebar 2: _*Careful with the word "accent". Among the less linguistically inclined, it's used to mean "dialect" so you often might hear the exclamation: "Oh, he speaks with a Jordanian accent" when what is really meant is the Jordanian "dialect". (I don't think there's such a thing as a "Jordanian accent")*_
> 
> Good luck



Actually there is. A Jordanian accent is important especially for the 'Jordanian purists' to communicate: we're not from the majority 'Palestinian Jordanians". (Very sensitive subject)
I can tell from someone's accent what part of Iraq they come from, which town in Syria they come from. Even what sect they belong to .... Why? Because of their accent y'all ! 
Don't over generalize.


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## Tracer

Muwahid said:


> Obviously you're being sarcastic! However, if you were to speak MSA in my experiences you'll be well understood especially for non-Arabs (if an Arab is speaking MSA in informal contexts you might get a few awkward glances).
> 
> This is why I feel MSA should be taught first, you can speak to everyone - and other Arabs can switch to MSA to communicate back to you. Plus there's just a plethora of content in MSA from Media to the net you'll never run out of practice material. Dialects vary so much, you can go to the next town and hear a different dialect. So it's hard to study them when you're not there immersed in it. But in the end I feel dialects are as equally important to learn as MSA.


Ordinarily, I would agree with you.  But the whole point of *Kalmarunion's* post is that he has not only limited time but extremely limited time at his disposal.  Given that situation, I think he can make much faster progress learning some "everyday" sentences that will expose him at a basic level as to how Arabic works.

And.....most "colloquial" courses give some information on the alphabet anyway.

If he starts fiddling around with MSA while devoting maximum 2 or 3 hours of study a week to it, he's not only going to get nowhere, he's going to get confused and end up like so many other beginning students of Arabic by hurling his "MSA textbook" into the nearest dustbin and stomping off. 

(I'm assuming he's going to be self-taught at this early stage.  If he has a teacher, that would be different, of course).

Sidebar 1: I'm a strong believer, particularly with Arabic, that the best way to learn it is "Dialect first, MSA later" or better "Both at the same time".

Sidebar 2:  I'm a rabid disbeliever that a language can be learned, especially at the beginning stages, via the Internet.  It can't.  It's a malicious hoax that's been hoisted on the innocent by I don't know who and I don't know why _*(actually, I do, but that's another subject).*_


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## Abu Fahm

You can learn a language purely via the internet. It took awhile but I did it none the less


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## Tracer

Ustaath said:


> Actually there is. A Jordanian accent is important especially for the 'Jordanian purists' to communicate: we're not from the majority 'Palestinian Jordanians". (Very sensitive subject)
> I can tell from someone's accent what part of Iraq they come from, which town in Syria they come from. Even what sect they belong to .... Why? Because of their accent y'all !
> Don't over generalize.


 
I disagree... _*(it would take to long to explain why)*_ but even if you're correct, I said that my statement holds true "among the less linguistically inclined".  You undoubtedly don't belong to that group. 

A quick look at forums such as YouTube and FaceBook, will reveal that the vast majority of people when speaking on this subject obviously don't realize that there's a difference between a dialect and an accent and routinely confuse the two.



Abu Fahm said:


> You can learn a language purely via the internet. It took awhile but I did it none the less


 
I have yet to meet a single person that's accomplished that.  If you have, congratulations.  On the other hand, I've met countless dozens who have tried and given up *(and so they went out and bought a book or enrolled in a course somewhere).*

You may be the "exception that proves the rule".  But...it's still a rule (at least of mine).


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## Abu Fahm

I must admit that I did a months or so course where i learned some basics like the alphabet and some basics of the grammar and vacab. But since then , it was purely books and internet. lately I started watching kuwaity soap operas and slowly geting used to gulf arabic.


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## Ustaath

Tracer said:


> Well I agree with that


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## kifaru

What accent does BBC journalist Hasan Muawad حسن معوض have?


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## suma

QURESHPOR said:


> I have had the good fortune and pleasure of travelling in several Arab countries all the way from the east to the extreme west. I have tried to put into practice my "bookish" (MSA) Arabic with varying degrees of success. I must also add that at no time did I ever feel that the "natives" were making fun of my feeble attempts at communicating with them in a non-colloquial setting. On the contrary, they were somewhat amazed at hearing a foreigner stringing together, on occasions, quite complex sentences which they could actually understand. My problem was n't that I could n't make them understand but, the difficulty arose in the opposite direction. It was I who could not quite follow their replies at their pace!
> 
> Having said all this, I do not know much about the colloquials. So, I can not recommend one over the other.


 my experience as well, exactly.


Tracer said:


> To wit, I think you should start with a "dialect" and forget MSA for the moment. Here's why:
> 
> 1. All, not most, *all* native Arabic speakers first spoke a dialect of Arabic and only later on, either at home, in grade school or in high school, did they take up the study of MSA. There's no reason, in my opinion, why a non-native speaker of Arabic should reverse this process.
> 
> _(Of course, the reality is that native speakers living in the Middle East really grow up speaking a dialect but surrounded by MSA so by the time they take up the "formal" study of MSA, they're already very familiar with it.....a kind of linguistic osmosis)_


Growing up speaking colloquial, but surrouned by MSA everywhere else is a BIG part of the picture, that cannot be duplicated for the foreign language learner.

I advise folks, that if reading or writing Arabic has little to no value for you, then by all means go ahead and stick with colloquial.


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## uas60

[Moderator's Note: Merged with a previous thread]
Assalaamu 3alaykum jamee3an!

I don't know if this kind of thread is allowed but... I never cease to be amazed at the amount of languages people speak!!  And I, personally, feel... not _jealous_, but I feel motivated and inspired and keen to catch up! So what I would like, really, is for you to simply write a bit about how you learned your languages, and maybe a few tips or whatever you want to say, e.g. if you went to an Arabic country - what did you do? Attend an institute? For how long?

Ammaa ana... My strongest language is *English *but I'm conversational (though not very literate) in *Urdu *(mother tongue so this one came free I guess!). In school (ages 12-16) I studied *French *(consider myself at intermediate level - difficulty in understanding spoken French) and I studied *German *(passed at top grade but am completely zero now unfortunately... I tried to keep up French but not German). I studied *Arabic *in evening classes for approx 3 years, 1 class per week (ages 14-16ish) which included 1 month in Syria intensive. Now I'm an undergrad student (not studying languages), but I am DETERMINED that I will learn Arabic although it's a part-time thing on stand-by at the moment.

My weakest area by far is _*listening* _because I have only studied the languages here in England mostly, so any tips for improving that would be beneficial. And the other thing I would like a comment on is if I do go to an Arabic country after graduating or something, what are the ways in which one can make the most of it? Enrolling in an institute? Living there for a year? 6 months? 3 months?


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## إسكندراني

Visiting a country where the language is spoken for a fleeting few days was immensely valuable for me; it vastly improved my French, German and Spanish (and Moroccan, which was at first incomprehensible to me). They are all still poor/low intermediate but that's a huge step up from the 'casual school' level I had before visiting these places. In the case of French and German, I visited several times (for pleasure, not on a course or anything) and every time I would be surprised how much more I could understand / speak compared to before.
Also, English was a foreign language to me originally, and although I was a kid when I came to britain, I still learned it almost from scratch. This was by exposure, not by grammar or formal courses.
Maybe each of us is unique, but for me it is all about occasional intensive exposure and consistent light exposure. Grammar and such are no fun if you don't hear them used, and play with them yourself.
MSA came to me from satellite TV and from the Qur'aan - and from all the dialects you hear in Britain having to come to a middle ground somewhere. All the grammar I had from school was completely gone until my interest spiked a couple of years ago.


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## tr463

Hi there!

I'm an Arabic major at my University, I've studied Arabic for about 3 years and did a summer intensive program in America, then a summer intensive program in Alexandria, Egypt and now a year-long program in Alexandria as well.

In terms of improving listening, you should just listen to the news to get a feel for MSA Arabic and watch TV shows to improve whatever dialect you choose to focus on. Also, I've found really awesome websites for guided practice in terms of dialects that you can check out HERE and HERE.

Hope this helps and good luck!


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## Abu Talha

وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته


uas60 said:


> My weakest area by far is _*listening*..._


This is my weakest area too.. I'm trying to watch more TV programs to get a better ear at distinguishing the different sounds. Besides this, I try to read as much as I can and review my vocabulary daily. 

By the way, if you're interested, I've come to use Google Chrome's dictionary extension quite a bit. If you double-click a word, a small pop-up bubble translates the foreign word into English so you don't have to interrupt your reading to look up the word in a dictionary. Although, you may want to look it up later anyway and get a more precise definition.


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## إسكندراني

One of the main challenges facing westerners learning Arabic is that very few Arabic TV channels are available on satellites that are easily accessible in northern europe and the americas; only one or two are ever mildly interesting to watch. A way around this is to find popular programs and view them over the internet; most shows are available like this since it is much less of a tabboo to upload shows in Arab countries compared to most western countries.


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## londonmasri

tr463 said:


> Hi there!
> 
> I'm an Arabic major at my University, I've studied Arabic for about 3 years and did a summer intensive program in America, then a summer intensive program in Alexandria, Egypt and now a year-long program in Alexandria as well.
> 
> In terms of improving listening, you should just listen to the news to get a feel for MSA Arabic and watch TV shows to improve whatever dialect you choose to focus on. Also, I've found really awesome websites for guided practice in terms of dialects that you can check out HERE and HERE.
> 
> Hope this helps and good luck!



These links are simply outstanding!
Thank you very much for sharing 

The common denominator here is difficulty with listening. I would agree, in my case listening was/is the most difficult part. Even mroe so than speaking which is interesting. 

Definitely the more one listens the better - but if you can't make out what they are saying at all then there is no point (in my opinion). So one of hte best ways is to study a clip and try and understand everything in that one clip and so on. One thing which is highly valuable is transcripts - so you watch a video with a transcript so you have all the words in front of you. There is a good website for this which I can have a look for if anyone is interested and I'll post the link up.

Also DVDs in the target language with subtitles in the mother tongue can be very useful.


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## Schem

English required near-full immersion from me to master it as well as I mastered Classical and MS Arabic through school and literature. It was a fairly easy task as I was surrounded by English in the virtual world and it was also present in my day-to-day life (through TV and conversing with expats). What really helped improve my English though was the thirst I had as a young teenager for non-Arabic sources on different issues, usually pertaining to religion, philosophy, or politics: I would happily read long articles on news sites or encyclopedia sites only to end up understanding a fracture of what I read, which would only keep my ambition going.

The only other language I can confidently cite is Spanish, which I officially started learning at the end of last year and continue to learn on a school level today. My contact with Spanish dates at least ten years back when I discovered the world of Latin Pop-Rock (via a certain Colombian singer that shall remain unnamed ) and have been a fervent fan of the language ever since. That obviously gave me a head start by the time I took my first Spanish class but a lot of immersion still needs to be done, which is why I'm planning on spending the summer of next year in Spain/Mexico. Similarly, I'm hoping this would help my listening skills as well.

Finally, I'd also like to mention my interest in linguistics (and morphology in particular) as an important factor which helped me gain a lot of confidence in matters regarding meaning, spelling, and generally "the logic" of a language.

tl;dr version: Find something that you're passionate about in a language and try to apply it to your learning experience in whichever way possible.


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## future_polygot

[Moderator's Note: Merged with a previous thread]
Salaam everyone! Just to introduce myself, I'm an undergrad trying to learn languages on my own. I've had some religious experience with Arabic (I'm not Arab though), and having taken one semester of Arabic, I'm trying to work on proficiency. I have an Arabic language instruction book by Brustad et al., but since I want to use Google Translate in order to learn more words (I make some sentences and feed it to Google Translate), I would like to know how accurate _is_ Google Translate? So let's take this sentence for instance:
I have a lot of work to do

لدي الكثير من العمل القيام به
​
How close is that?


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## Finland

Hello!

The answer is very easy: you should absolutely not use Google Translate for studying Arabic. At best, some simple sentences *might* be translated correctly, but in the absolute majority of cases the result is nothing close to a translation. The sentence you had, for example, was not translated correctly. The sentence you got in Arabic makes no sense. So do stick to texts produced and translated by human beings!

HTH
S


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## tuhal

To add a bit to what Finland has already stated well, if you are in the beginning stages of learning Arabic, google translate is generally very poor for _sentence_ translation.  One reason is the lack of internal vowels - which can be rectified a bit by the audio function - but still, it is sometimes difficult to to decipher exactly what the computer-generated voice is saying.  If you use google translate, I would stick to looking up individual words, and still I would definitely *not* use it as my first source.  There are a number of online dictionary references that are superior and provide much more context, like the Arabic-English dictionary found on this website, or almaany dot com.

 Getting back to your sentence above.  First off, it would be better stated with a li- attached to the word al-qiyaam, forming lil-qiyaam bihi.  Once you have made that change it would be a correct translation of what you have entered in English.  But then you still have an of issue or two.  For example, the use of ladayya / لديّ is much less common than using 3indi / عندي  or lii / لي.  Using ladayya gives the sentence a bit of a classical or erudite feel, which I don't think your after with such a casual expression like 'I have a lot of work to do'.


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## fdb

Google translate is bad in all languages. Machines cannot produce coherent human speech in any language.


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## girlwithafacee

I'm also an undergrad learning Arabic... and I'll follow with what everyone else has said.  It's totally unreliable.  Since you're learning by yourself, I'll also assume you want to speak colloquially... which is even worse   Pick a dialect (whether it's MSA, the "formal" Arabic, or not), and roll with that.


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## tr463

In addition to what everyone else said here, keep at it with the al-Kitaab series. Go through the books thoroughly and try to internalize the grammar and the vocab because it'll be immensely helpful in the future. (I know this because I lived in Egypt  )


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## MarcB

Look in the resources thread at the top of the page. There are many links for MSA and colloquial.


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## future_polygot

Okay then, Google Translate is out of the picture. Thanks everyone for the advice!


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## إسكندراني

[Moderator's Note: Merged with a previous thread]
What would you say is the most difficult thing about Arabic for a learner? I mean once we have gotten over the shock of a language nothing like indo-European languages and become fluent with the script? in my limited experience teaching beginners, i would probably say i felt learners struggled with:
- reading without vowelling
- conjugating verbs
- the size of the vocabulary
- the fact you can't converse in dialect with fluency for quite a while
- understanding the grammar rules, which are quite extensive
- coming to terms with native speakers not adhering to them

in light of whatever problems you faced learning arabic, what did you find most useful to overcome those hurdles?


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## paieye

I was brought up from an early age on Latin.  English is largely based on Latin, and it was assumed in those far-off days that, to master English, school-children must have an understanding of Latin.  A vital part of learning it was to be able to analyse every single word grammatically, so as to determine whether it was simple or compound, what part of speech, and its relevant characteristics  -- for nouns and adjectives, its declension, case, number, gender, &c., for verbs, its conjugation, tense, number, mood, voice, &c.

Latin is exceptionally simple and terse.  Its descendants  --  Italian, French, Spanish, and many others, including English --  are less so, and the study of them benefits even more from analysis.

Arabic seems to me also much less simple and terse than Latin  (possibly far less so, but I need a little more time with it before I make up my mind).  In particular, it is exceptionally rich in compound words, that fairly cry out for analysis.  Take -- this is only an  example, not a real question ---   لَكَ.  Is that 1 word or 2 that have been merged ?  What parts of speech are they ?  If the 1st word started off as لِ, how and why has it become لَ ?  

I accordingly approach Arabic longing for grammatical analysis, but have so far found not a single book or course that makes any attempt at it, and indeed it seems an unfamiliar idea to most Arabic-speakers to whom I have mentioned it.  

There is also the difficulty to which you refer that in written Arabic vowels are largely treated as an extra.  This means that the foreign student may see a written or printed word, and have literally no idea how to pronounce it.

Mercifully, I have found a tutor who understands my difficulties, and is equal to the  task.

I might add, يا ا_سكندراني, _that I am much indebted to you and to other faithful supporters in this forum for your help with, and impressive understanding of,  my labours in this respect   اشُكْرُكُم !


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## Qureshpor

I started taking interest in Arabic whilst at University and started with "Teach Yourself Arabic" by Professor Tritton. I had the advantage of knowing the alphabet (as I had learnt to read the Qur'an as a child) and a lot of the words in Urdu are borrowed from Arabic, so vocabulary was not too much of a problem either. Urdu is also written without vowels, so yet again another advantage. However, when I got to the "construct state" (the izaafat), I just got stuck and gave up. This must have been page 5 or 6! My problem was n't so much the difficulty/difficulties encountered in Arabic but my own mind that is not prepared to accept anything until it has disected the problem into minute pieces!!

Later on I bought the "Linguaphone" Arabic course, which had tape cassettes and I enjoyed learning the language through this material. Still, when I come across a problem, I would search it in half a dozen text books at my disposal but they appeared to have everything in them except my query!! I would go back to Tritton's book now and again and then leave learning Arabic altogether once again. After a few years of this painful "struggle", I don't know what happened but things suddenly began to fall into place. I remember, when I first started to actually understand small passages in Wicken's lovely book and found myself laughing at the witty sentences interdispersed within the book, I knew I had finally found my way into this wonderful language. 

One of the difficulties that I encountered with Arabic was a lot of memory work in conjugations of verbs, especially in the "present-future". I wondered why, for example, the 3rd person singular/feminine is not "yaktubiin". This would make the whole conjugation set completely regular. I found it annoying that "taktubu" means both "you (masculine) write and "she writes"! ta prefix should have been for the second person and ya for the third!

There are still doubts in my mind about some of the grammatical things but I hope in due course they will be ironed out.

I have been to several Arabic speaking countries (including your homeland). I have always tried speaking the language and have made myself understood. However, when the natives have replied back to me, most of the time I have felt they were speaking too fast for my slow brain to capture everything. My speaking Arabic did cause a slight problem when I was in Aswan and went for a haircut with a friend. I was trying to show off my knowledge of Arabic to him. Anyway, I was unable to make myself understood as both of us just needed a trim. In the end I put my index finger out, pointing with my thumb the amount I wanted the barber to cut. Well he thought it was how much I wanted left. Needless to say, when we came out our wives walked right past us not recognising us!!


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## suma

I think the practice (thankfully now very obsolete) of studying English via Latin, and attempts to match English to Latin grammar are very wrong.
So I'm equally opposed to teaching or studying Arabic thru an English crutch.

Would you judge an orange using an apple as the standard of what a fruit is suppose to look/taste like?


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## Pathawi

For me, the two most difficult things have been the size of the vocabulary, & the chasm between فصحى & عامية.

I started by learning Egyptian Arabic, & have only more recently begun working on فصحى deliberately. This has meant that while learning to have conversations in Egypt, I wasn't necessarily learning skills that would help me read a newspaper. It's hard to get a sense of register. I also don't know when the vowels are different. (رحّب, for example, has a different second vowel.)

The difference between colloquial & فصحى has meant that my skills have developed very differently. I can have decent conversations in Egyptian Arabic, but I can't express myself to the same level in writing. In Spanish, French, & German, my speaking & writing skills are about on par, as there's not such a gulf between the spoken & written forms of the language. I write questions about Arabic in Arabic on Facebook, as the medium seems conversational, but I get the sense that I'd look foolish using عامية to ask general questions in a forum with strangers.

The size of the vocabulary is a challenge. I use a spaced repetition system with digital flashcards to learn vocabulary. Every time I encounter a word that's new to me, I look it up in the Hinds-Badawi Egyptian Arabic dictionary, & if there are example sentences, I add them to my flashcard deck. But this takes a lot of time, & my vocabulary acquisition goes more slowly than I'd like. I wish there were a similar dictionary with example sentences in فصحى. I also wish that there were good graded readers of عامية that used Arabic script & brought one beyond a beginner level. To make up for this, I've been using عامية texts that have English translations: the novel عايزة الجوّز, & the CultureTalk Egypt Website (http://langmedia.fivecolleges.edu/culturetalk/egypt/index.html). Neither is perfect, as the translations aren't quite exact (they're not meant to be), but they do the trick: If I can't understand what I'm reading in Arabic, I can compare it to a translation to get a general sense of where I'm getting something wrong. Additionally, with CultureTalk, I convert the video interviews to audio, & listen to them when I'm out walking here in the US. This is all very slow going.

I don't think verb conjugation is much more difficult than in Germanic or Romance languages. The pronunciation is dramatically different (I had a very hard time wrapping my brain around emphatic consonants at the beginning), but it's a limited set of skills to pick up. I don't find lack of vocalisation particularly hard to work with in reading, but one thing I notice is that I can often read text in فصحى & understand it without being quite sure how to pronounce it.

The one part of grammar that I've found unusually difficult is إعراب of numbers. Not so bad in Egyptian, but in فصحى…

---
Bob Offer-Westort
Oakland, California, USA


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## tr463

إسكندراني said:


> in light of whatever problems you faced learning arabic, what did you find most useful to overcome those hurdles?



Without a doubt, the one word that comes to mind as soon as I read this is *practice*.

My Arabic learning experience was somewhat different (and "ideal" if you will) because my university has what's considered the best Arabic program in the nation due to the fact that 2/3 al-Kitaab authors have been my teacher over the years and a small 15-20 student setting where they had ample time to focus on our personal needs.

That being said, because they were university classes, I had Arabic homework every single day that got progressively harder. The first year wasn't as difficult as I thought it would be, probably because the books didn't delve into much grammar and stuck mainly to introducing new vocab. 

I took my second year of Arabic over a 9-week summer period which was structured to cover a year's worth of material in that short time. Additionally, this is where heavier writing assignments were given and we went into the finer aspects of grammar, most notably "el i3rab." This intensive summer program gave students about 3-5 hours of homework each night and upwards of 10 hours of homework every weekend (and classes were from 9-4 Monday through Friday). I remember on my final test, we were given an un-voweled paragraph and were asked to write the conjugation marks AND i3rab marks on it - something I could do then but would laugh if you asked me to do the same now.

Third year consisted of lots and lots of writing and fine tuning our grammar knowledge. Additionally, I took an Egyptian Arabic course that really boosted my 3meeya abilities. Personally, I believe that I found EA easy to learn because of my fus7a base, so it was only a matter of changing the accent, dropping a few "formal" grammar aspects and learning new vocab.

The summer after that, I studied in Alexandria where I was able to cement in my EA skills and again hone my writing skills. Fourth year back in the USA where I took content courses and wrote essay upon essay. Then a year back in Alexandria where we wrote complicated papers on Arab philosophers, analyzed articles about sectarian strife, and translated academic papers to/from Arabic. In terms of EA, we watched about 2 Egyptian movies a week, wrote papers in EA, and made long recordings in EA as well. In addition to alll of that, we had a "language partner" we met ~once a week, took a class in Alexandria University (where it would be us, the one foreigner in the class and then anywhere from 100-500 other Egyptian students) and had to take those tests as well, and had an internship at an organization/business in Alex.

The reason I wrote that novel above is to clarify the depth and range in which I studied and the ENORMOUS amounts of homework I've done over the past 5 years. Strangely, it's never been about "what's difficult" to learn for me and my classmates because not learning/understanding was never an option because you'd just fall behind and fail. However, we've always had a teacher/native speaker available should we need clarification on anything so that's always helped.

However, my personal current situation, having been out of classes Arabic classes for about 6 months now, I can stay that getting in speaking time is difficult which has lead me to rely on my "back-up" fush7a inventory of vocab that's been hard coded into my brain. Meaning, in the random times I have spoken Arabic in the past months, if there's every a word or grammar structure I'm reaching for in EA, I'll usually just replace it with fush7a (if I remember that). I read books/the news here and there and listen to BBC podcasts in order to retain and learn new vocab. I've probably suffered the most in writing because I never liked writing to begin with (rather, the topics that were given to us in school) so I'd probably be the worst at that. Also, don't even get me started on the i3rab because that's completely gone from my memory.

Anyway, the key takeaway is *practice practice practice.*


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## إسكندراني

Thank you all.


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## rarabara

hi, I ask to native arabs or to someone who feel themself good in arabic language, whether I should be strict on grammar in learning arabic
I ask this,because I know that there were many resources in arabic but not written with their
حركته

for instance I will not be able to ddifferentiate the difference between some forms (like this
(etc كِتَبُ , كتَبِ , كِتَبٌ  ..)


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## princeipeazul

*This is just my personal experience working here in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. *

First of all you made this thread in 2006 so probably you have become fluent in Arabic, I guess.

Going back to the topic, if you wish learn Arabic to work here in Saudi Arabia then it's not necessary to master Arabic grammar. In fact, non-native speakers are speaking a "dumbed-down" version of the Arabic language which I think they call the _"mafi malum Arabic". _Mafi malum arabic is a pidgin langauge spoken mainly by Indians and Pakistanis. This is very frustating to me because even if I try to speak in a standard dialectal Arabic, native speakers still answer me back in that "dumbed-down" version of Arabic.

However, there are Arabs, especially Saudis, that when they notice that I speak the way they do they start speaking normally. That is the reason why I am very selective when speaking to native speakers. And that is the reason why spoken Arabic language is hard to learn: not because it is difficult bad because native speakers don't speak it correctly to non-native speakers.

On the other hand, if you wish to learn Arabic because your family speaks it and you don't I recommend to study dialectal arabic and they are pretty easier compared to MSA. If you wish to find sources of spoken Arabic for free you can download them here Internet Archive: Digital Library of Free & Borrowable Books, Movies, Music & Wayback Machine

And more obviously if you wish to learn Arabic to teach it to foreigners then definitely you will have to master MSA grammar which we have a lot of resources of in Google search.

Good luck


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