# The vowel sound in "short", "north"



## ampurdan

La fonètica anglesa em porta una mica de corcoll pel que fa a les vocals.

I would like to know if the vowel sound in "short" and "north" is the same as the one in the Catalan word "camió", but just slightly longer.

I think there is no difference in British RP and General American here (not talking about the "r" being pronounced or not here).

Thank you!


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## catatonia.today

Hola ampurdan,

En el diccionari Merriam Webster es pot escoltar la pronunciació de les paraules. Clar, és anglès americà, però espero que et pugui estar d'ajut:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/short


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## ernest_

Aquí pots escoltar la pronunciació en RP d'aquestes vocals angleses:
LOT, THOUGHT
(tret d'aquest CD: http://www3.hi.is/~peturk/KENNSLA/02/LAB SOUND/index.html)
 La prova que pots fer és gravar-te a tu mateix i després comparar la pronunciació.


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## ampurdan

Gràcies per les vostres respostes.

No puc obrir els arxius de so que m'adjunteu, de moment.

El meu problema és que el límit entre les vocals se'm difumina molt i arriba un moment que ja no estic segur de quin so sento.

Pensava que algun estudiant de parla anglesa de català potser em podria dir si té la impressió que aquests sons es corresponen bastant o hi ha molta diferència des del seu punt de vista - o d'oïda, en aquest cas.


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## Agró

Jo diria que la vocal 'o' a 'short' o 'north' és més llarga i més oberta que la 'o' catalana a 'camió'.
La seva transcripció en caràcters IPA és /ɔː/ (mig oberta); la de la 'o' catalana és /o/ (tancada).


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## Joannes

Exactly, the sound in *short*, *north*, etc. is like a long Catalan òò. Perhaps the vowel the British say in *what* for example is confusing you -- that one is even more open, and shorter obviously. You will find Catalan ó in some variants of AmE, but as part of a diphtong: e.g. in *no* /nóu/ *okay* /óukéi/.

(In Dutch there's the difference ò - ó as well.)


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## ManPaisa

> I think there is no difference in British RP and General American here (not talking about the "r" being pronounced or not here).


 
The fact that General American is rhotic, and RP is not, does make a difference in the quality of the o sound. 

The o becomes longer (more protracted) in British English, thereby compensating for the loss of the r sound.


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## ampurdan

Thank you. What I can gather from all your comments is:

So, in "north", "short" and "awe" in RP British the vowel sound is a long medium o (not as open as the Catalan ò, but more open than the Catalan ó).

In American English, it's the same sound in "north" and "short" (not in "awe"), but slightly shorter.

Is that it?


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## roboir

Basically you've got it, but I would add that...


short, north = *[ɔ*ː*]* - somewhere between Catalan/Portuguese/Italian *[ɔ]* (only more open) and English* [ɑː]* as in_ 'father'_ (but more closed)...
in the following forms of English*: American English, Northern English (Northern England), Hiberno-English (Ireland). But, notice the opposition in
*aw*e = *[ɔːɔː]* = the effect is lengthened, similar to what happens when the RP *[ɔ*ː*]* appears before a non-rhotic r. In reality, I think that this phoneme should be represented by a distinctive IPA symbol, but perhaps that would be impractical, so it'd be best conveyed by *[ɔːɔː]* or better yet *[ɔːː].*

Therefore, in RP, Estuary English** and Australasian English, *aw*e is identical to *sh*ort and *no*rth = *[ɔːɔː]*


* = let these be understood to be forms of educated spoken usage, not necessarily dialect or heavy vernacular. Besides which, even within this set some regional dialects do present exemptions to this rule, eg: North-Eastern USA tends to preserve non-rhotic forms; hence sh*or*t and *awe *both contain* [ɔːɔː] *as in RP.

** = the less informal, and increasingly middle-class form of spoken English in Southern England. Closer to RP than northern English, but increasingly influenced by regional southern dialects (as well as those international ones from cosmopolitan London).


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## merquiades

Hello again Ampurdan... It's an exercise trying to explain how I pronounce these sounds...  First of all, the word 'Awe' I pronounce a long ÀÀ like in català, for 'what' it's also an à but not as long... I don't pronounce short and north the same way... Neither of them are like the ó in camió... I'll try to write it phonetically for you... xòòt and nòez.. This is American at least in the east. I think it could be different everywhere, anywhere from à to ò and in between.. Some Brits pronounce these vowels quite long to my ear.. Hope it is of some help.


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## sound shift

In BE, the vowel in "short" is pronounced with the lips rounded. I don't know if any of the Catalan vowels are pronounced with the lips rounded. If none of them entail rounding, there can be only limited value in approximating the BE phoneme in "short" to a Catalan phoneme.


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## Outsider

It's not quite the same vowel, but it is a good first approximation for Catalan or Portuguese speakers.


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## ampurdan

Both "ó", as in "camió", and "ò", as in "arròs", are rounded in Catalan, if I'm not mistaken. They degree of roundedness is different but they differ mostly in _height_. "A", as in "mà", is not rounded. It differs from both "ò" and "ó" in height and in roundedness.

I've listened to the pronunciations tagged as US in the Wordreference English-Spanish dictionary (Oxford) for the words "north" and "short" and I agree that both "or" do not sound completely alike (although it is phonetically transcribed with the same symbol *ɔ*ː).

Anyway, I think I'm going to pronounce /ɔː/ as a long "ò", but more rounded. 

Thank you for your answers.


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