# مناسبتيًا



## Interprete

Hello,

In a radio programme, the host talks about a Palestinian girl who speaks MSA in her daily life instead of speaking a dialect. The host says about her that:
ولا تعتبر الحديث باللغة العربية مناسبتياً بل اتخذتها لسان حياتها اليومية

I'm not sure if it was مناسبتيا or مناسباتيا

I can't find this word in any dictionary...
Thanks for your help.


----------



## momai

It should be مناسبتياً which means "occasionally".
Correctly,this sentence should be also this way ولا تعتبر الحديث باللغة العربية شيئاً مناسبتياً


Interprete said:


> I can't find this word in any dictionary...


 I didn't check myself any dictionary but I guess the word is just a loan translation from some European language.BTW, the word should be very rarely used,in fact, I don't remember having heard or read this word myself before.


----------



## elroy

Yes, this is an obvious (and, in my opinion, dreadful) calque.


----------



## Matat

What language is this supposed to be from?


----------



## elroy

English.  "Occasion" = مناسبة.


----------



## Matat

I'm still confused. What is the sentence saying and how is مناسبتيا used as a loan translation in this sentence?


----------



## elroy

She doesn't just speak MSA _occasionally_; she uses it for everyday communication.


----------



## Matat

Using تعتبر الحديث to mean "to speak" seems odd to me. Is this a common phrase? Reading "ولا تعتبر الحديث باللغة العربية مناسبتيا", I would think that it was saying "She doesn't consider speaking in Arabic to be _munaasibatiyyan". _From this angle, it doesn't make sense for _munaasibatiyyan _to mean "occasionally".


----------



## elroy

See momai's correction of the sentence in #2.

Also, the pronunciation is _munāsabatiyyan_.


----------



## Matat

Based on what you and momai are saying, I understand this sentence as "She doesn't consider speaking in MSA to be (something which is to be done) occasionally".

It seems that the host tried to construct an artificial nisba adjective from مناسبة, but did so improperly, since when constructing a nisba from an ism which ends with ة, the ة always gets dropped.

However, I'm still uncertain about what you guys meant when you said that it was a loan translation from English. The structure of both the word and the sentence don't sound like they would come from a loan translation of English.


----------



## apricots

"She doesn't consider conversing in fus7a to be an occasional thing" is fine in English. It's really unclear what you're arguing for Matat when two native speakers have explained whats happening in this sentence.


----------



## cherine

Matat, you are right, but I think you misunderstood Elroy's post. He didn't give a literal translation of the Arabic sentence, but a more naturally-sounding English one. And


Matat said:


> It seems that the host tried to construct an artificial nisba adjective from مناسبة, but did so improperly, since when constructing a nisba from an ism which ends with ة, the ة always gets dropped.


That's exactly what the others said, that مناسبتيًا is a badly formed word. Wether it's a calque or not is debatable, I personally think he just made up a word instead of saying something longer like لا تعتبر الحديث باللغة العربية (الفصحى) شيئًا خاصًا بالمناسبات فقط.


----------



## elroy

Matat said:


> when constructing a nisba from an ism which ends with ة, the ة always gets dropped.


 That's the general/traditional/classical rule, but for newer creations it's not always upheld.  See ثقافوي for another example.


----------



## Matat

apricots said:


> It's really unclear what you're arguing for Matat when two native speakers have explained whats happening in this sentence.


I'm not arguing for anything. Please reread the conversation.



cherine said:


> Wether it's a calque or not is debatable, I personally think he just made up a word


That's what it feels like to me too.



elroy said:


> That's the general/traditional/classical rule, but for newer creations it's not always upheld. See ثقافوي for another example.


This is also pretty interesting since it's not proper as well. However, constructing the nisba adjective of words which end with an alif turns the alif into an ـوي (e.g. دنيا to دنيوي), and considering the ة and alif virtually sound the same in MSA, it is not completely far fetched that one would construct ثقافويّ from ثقافة (even though it should just be ثقافيّ). On the other hand, where مناسبتي came from doesn't make much sense.


----------



## elroy

Matat said:


> On the other hand, where مناسبتي came from doesn't make much sense.


 How does it not make sense?  Obviously the ة was changed to a ت, as in إضافة.


----------



## Matat

elroy said:


> How does it not make sense? Obviously the ة was changed to a ت, as in إضافة.


Of course that's obvious, but that's not what I meant. I meant that it doesn't make sense from the angle that nisba adjectives are never constructed with the feminine marker ة left in place. The feminine marker is always dropped from the origin noun (if it has a feminine marker) when constructing a nisba. For example, the nisba of مدرسة is مدرسيّ, not مدرستيّ.  The ـوي ending, on the other hand, does exist as an ending in certain nisba adjectives, despite it being incorrectly added in the ثقافوي example you provided.

Basically, it seems odd that someone would come up with something like مناسبتي when no other nisba adjective exists of that same form (i.e. with the feminine marker left in place).


----------



## elroy

It's not odd from a native-speaker perspective.  Native speakers do these things by intuition, and the fact that ة becomes ت in إضافة is enough to make this creation not surprising.  This process happens in all languages, and it's called paradigm leveling.


----------



## Matat

elroy said:


> Native speakers do these things by intuition, and the fact that ة becomes ت in إضافة is enough to make this creation not surprising.


Idaafas and nisbas are different and unrelated enough that I would not initially think that a native speaker would extrapolate one to the other.  I would think that a native speaker would intuitively feel that a nisba construction from ة to ـتيّ would feel wrong purely based on the fact that it doesn't exist naturally in any other nisba. Nevertheless, I'd be interested to hear what other words you've come across which are like this with the feminine marker intact within the nisba which feel intuitive and natural to you.


----------



## elroy

There are feminine words that end in a regular ت that is retained in the نسبة form: for example, كهنوت-كهنوتي، جبروت-جبروتي.  There are also words ending in a feminine-plural ات that is also retained in the نسبة form: for example, الإمارات-إماراتي.  In colloquial Arabic we also have adjectives like بنّاتي (from بنات), ستّاتي (from ستّات), حكواتي (from حكايات), etc. These instances of a feminine ت being preserved in a نسبة adjective aren't very far removed from something like مناسبتي as far as intuitive acceptability is concerned.


----------



## Matat

None of those examples are comparable to مناسبتي. Of course, a root ت like that in كهنوتي and جبروتي would be different than a feminine ة and is treated differently. As for الإمارات, though its origins are that of a جمع مؤنث سالم, it is treated as a proper noun in most contexts including when constructing the nisba, not as a sound feminine plural. True feminine sound plurals are not used when constructing nisbas in MSA. Nevertheless, even when considering them to be used in constructing nisbas in dialect, feminine sound plurals are not comparable to singular feminine marked nouns since the two are constructed from different places. An ـات to ـاتيّ construction would not be comparable to a ـَة to ـَـتِيّ.

I am hoping you could provide an example which is more along the lines of مناسبتي if possible (a nisba with the singular feminine marker intact which would be intuitive and natural). If not, that's fine.


----------



## elroy

Matat said:


> None of those examples are comparable to مناسبتي.


 They are comparable in that they end with a feminine ت that is pronounced [t] and precedes the نسبة ending ي.  Because native speakers are used to these forms, something like مناسبتي - although not 100% comparable in every possible way, of course - is not a far stretch, i.e. it doesn't _sound_ particularly jarring, nor is it something that a native speaker would never utter (this example being a case in point).  This is what paradigm leveling is all about; native speakers will create new forms that match existing forms in certain ways, i.e. they increase similarities and decrease differences. 





Matat said:


> I am hoping you could provide an example which is more along the lines of مناسبتي if possible (a nisba with the singular feminine marker intact which would be intuitive and natural).


 If I think of one, I will share it.


----------



## analeeh

One note - it seems that Cherine interprets this as 'on [big] occasions' (i.e. مناسبات) whilst Elroy sees it as a calque of English 'occasionally'.


----------



## Ghabi

That's why it's confusing. In English "occasional" can mean "done on special occasions", but "occasionally" only means أحيانًا.


----------



## analeeh

Ghabi said:


> That's why it's confusing. In English "occasional" can mean "done on special occasions", but "occasionally" only means أحيانًا.



Sort of - because Cherine is interpreting it as an on-the-fly derivation from مناسبة (which I think makes more sense in context) but elroy interpreted it as a calque on English 'occasionally'.


----------



## elroy

Ghabi said:


> In English "occasional" can mean "done on special occasions"


 I would never use it to mean that in English. Would you, analeeh?  For me "occasional" is just the adjective corresponding to "occasionally."  


analeeh said:


> Cherine is interpreting it as an on-the-fly derivation from مناسبة (which I think makes more sense in context) but elroy interpreted it as a calque on English 'occasionally'.


 I did initially agree with momai's reading ("occasionally") but I think Cherine's reading ("only on special occasions") is completely plausible as well.


----------



## cherine

Yes, I don't see a reason why this would be a calque from English. In my opinion it's something this person made-up incorrectly from the word مناسبة/مناسبات. I still believe it's incorrect, but the meaning is clear from the context.


----------



## Ghabi

elroy said:


> I would never use it to mean that in English.


The usage is more high-register. You may see, for example, "an occasional poem".


----------



## elroy

I don't see why it _can't_ be a calque.  I think both are possible (الاحتمالان واردان) - although Cherine's is probably more likely. 


Ghabi said:


> The usage is more high-register. You may see, for example, "an occasional poem".


 I've never come across this in American English.  For me "an occasional poem" means "a poem every once in a while."


----------



## analeeh

It exists in American and British English, it's just jargon ('occasional poetry' is a term used in literary studies for example) rather than being a normal usage.


----------



## elroy

I don't think that's enough to make it confusing in our example.


----------



## Ghabi

When I first saw OP's sentence, I thought it means "she doesn't consider fuS7a something used only on special occasions (e.g. formal interviews, religious ceremonies)", and I still believe so. That's why I found the discussion a bit confusing.


analeeh said:


> it's just jargon ('occasional poetry' is a term used in literary studies for example)


Forgive my stubbornness, but I won't say it belongs to the realms of "jargon". One may hear, for example, "Trump delivers the occasional speech" in the news (source).


----------



## analeeh

Ghabi said:


> Forgive my stubbornness, but I won't say it belongs to the realms of "jargon". One may hear, for example, "Trump delivers the occasional speech" in the news (source).



That line is synonymous with 'Trump delivers speeches occasionally'. It's a different usage of 'occasional' (i.e. 'happening on occasion', like 'I go for the occasional run') - not the one we're discussing here.

In any case, I still think it's most likely that مناسبتياً was supposed to refer here to مناسبات as in 'on special occasions', as you and Cherine suggested (and possibly this was what Momai meant as well, which is where the confusing English word comes in). There doesn't seem to be much more to say on this discussion


----------



## elroy

Ghabi said:


> "Trump delivers the occasional speech"


 In that context it means "Trump occasionally gives speeches," i.e. "Trump only gives speeches from time to time."

I am in complete agreement with analeeh.  The predominant meaning of "occasional" (by which I mean the meaning it has 99% of the time) is "not happening frequently."


----------

