# Persian: The suffix ē with present tense



## Qureshpor

Friends,

I am trying to understand the significance of the prefix ē added to present tense roots. I shall transcribe this ē as ے since in the Early New Persian and Classical Persian it was a "majhuul" sound. For everyone's benefit, this suffix is predominantly used with the past root although examples with the present root can also be found in both prose and verse. Here is an example from فرخانی سیستانی.

هر که را مهتریست اندر سر
گو بدر گاه میر ما بگذر

آسمان خواهدے که بر در او
یابدے جان کهترین چاکر

And another one from قاآنی

گه‌ گویمے به مطرب بنواز ارغنون را      
گه ‌گویمے به ساقی پر ساز ساتکین را

(که اگر من نیستمے دیر استے تا مغزھای شما کرگسان خوردندے (سیاست نامه

What does the suffix ے add to the meaning, especally in the first two examples?


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## PersoLatin

Qureshpor said:


> گه‌ گویمے به مطرب بنواز ارغنون را
> گه ‌گویمے به ساقی پر ساز ساتکین را


I have never seen this poetry before but reading it I’d say both گویمی’s can be replaced with میگویم.



Qureshpor said:


> آسمان خواهدے که بر در او
> یابدے جان کهترین چاکر


میخواهد and بیابد


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## Eastern Ludicrous Writer

Qureshpor said:


> What does the suffix ے add to the meaning,


As there are a lot of proposes to use it, please refer to the following page.
معنی ی  | لغت نامه دهخدا | پارسی ویکی



Qureshpor said:


> I shall transcribe this ē as ے since


In Farsi it is absolutely ی, and we call it ی پسوندی فعل so in many manuscript you can see ی:
هر که را مهتریست اندر سر
گو بدر گاه میر ما بگذر
در جهان خدمت امیر منست
خدمتی کان دهد بزرگی بر
آسمان *خواهدی* که بر در او
یابدی جان کهترین چاکر
من نه برخیره ایدر آمده ام
*مرمرا *بخت ره نمود ایدر
بخت من درجهان بگشت و ندید
هیچ درگاه ازین مبارک تر
Or
به ازین *گفتمی *مدایح تو
گر مرا عقده بر لسان نبدی
Or
گه *گویمی* به مطرب بنواز ارغنون را
گه *گویمی* به ساقی پر ساز ساتکین را


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## Qureshpor

Eastern Ludicrous Writer said:


> As there are a lot of proposes to use it, please refer to the following page.
> 
> معنی ی  | لغت نامه دهخدا | پارسی ویکی
> 
> In Farsi it is absolutely ی, and we call it ی پسوندی فعل so in many manuscript you can see ی:


Dear Eastern Ludicrous Writer, if I had found a satisfactory answer in Dehkhoda or anywhere else for that matter, would I have felt the need to ask this question here?

With regard to your second comment, I am sure you will know that Iran is not the only country where Farsi is spoken and written. Please see the link below for Iqbal's "Jaaved Naamah". Just flick through the pages and you will see ے (and nuun-i-Ghunnah ں). In fact you will see both of them on the first page.

Javed Nama  by Allama Iqbal | Rekhta


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## Alfaaz

Qureshpor said:
			
		

> Please see the link below for Iqbal's "Jaaved Naamah".


Just in case that link doesn't work (requests logging in after a few pages to proceed), here is another source.


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## Qureshpor

Alfaaz said:


> Just in case that link doesn't work (requests logging in after a few pages to proceed), here is another source.


Thank you Alfaaz, much appreciated.


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## Eastern Ludicrous Writer

Qureshpor said:


> if I had found a satisfactory answer in Dehkhoda


Oh I am really sorry!!! As I thought there are a lot of variations of this ی , so you are confused!



Qureshpor said:


> I shall transcribe this ē as ے since in the Early New Persian and Classical Persian it was a "majhuul" sound.


I misunderstood about what you mean! it seems you personally transcribe the poems and change the original.



Qureshpor said:


> ink below for Iqbal's "Jaaved Naamah"


Dear Quershpor, Surely you know better than me فرخی سیستانی in very first sample of  manuscript which we can find is in Farsi without any نون غنه or  ی بریا in writing style. Also you can see قاآنی  as well in the below photo.
ملکی‌گشود و مملکتی را نمود امن
بی‌زحمت سیاست و بی‌رنج لشکرا




Qureshpor said:


> link below for Iqbal's "Jaaved Naamah"



Regarding جاوید نامه, this is my favorite book of Iqbal specially the part he meets سیدجمال
خوش بیا ای نکته سنج خاوری
ای که می زیبد ترا حرف دری
محرم رازیم با ما راز گوی
آنچه میدانی ز ایران باز گوی

yes, About this book you are right so I deleted my post.





فرخی
برآمد نیلگون ابری ز روی نیلگون دریا
چو رای عاشقان گردان چو طبع بیدلان شیدا


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## Qureshpor

PersoLatin said:


> I have never seen this poetry before but reading it I’d say both گویمی’s can be replaced with میگویم.
> میخواهد and بیابد


Thank you @PersoLatin. I don't believe I will be getting any more responses. Thank you for your response with which I am in agreement to a large extent.


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## PersoLatin

Qureshpor said:


> که اگر من نیستمے دیر استے تا مغزھای شما کرگسان خوردندے (سیاست نامه


Along the same lines, you have:
نمی‌بودم/نبودم، می‌شد, می‌خوردند

Although I can not quite see why we have a تا/till there instead of a و/and, also I expected to see a را after شما, at least here in prose.

No comments about گ in کرگسان instead of a ک.


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## Eastern Ludicrous Writer

PersoLatin said:


> No comments about گ in کرگسان instead of a ک.


In نسخه نخجوانی one of the best manuscript which published under یارشاطر provision recorded کرکس, But I think I have seen it as کرگس as well in some manuscript which is correct.
In this version we have no نون غنه or ی بریا  but maybe in some Ordu or other manuscript which wrote with other Farsi users from other countries can be found.


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## Eastern Ludicrous Writer

in علامه قزوینی version of the book,   the verb  خورده اندی is خوردندی. Meanwhile in this edition recorded as کرکس


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## Qureshpor

PersoLatin said:


> Along the same lines, you have:
> نمی‌بودم/نبودم، می‌شد, می‌خوردند


How would you translate the prose sentence into English? Also why do you think both present and past constructions have been employed together?

As for کرگس please see link for Dehkhoda below.

دیکشنری آنلاین آبادیس - Abadis Dictionary - معنی کرگس


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## Qureshpor

Eastern Ludicrous Writer said:


> In this version we have no نون غنه or ی بریا  but maybe in some Ordu or other manuscript which wrote with other Farsi users from other countries can be found.Dear Quershpor, Surely you know better than me فرخی سیستانی in very first sample of manuscript which we can find is in Farsi without any نون غنه or ی بریا in writing style.



What is "ی بریا"? As for نون غنّه please see the below thread, most relevant posts being 11, 12, 13, 14.

Persian: Is there a nasal nuun in poetry?

The nuun-i-Ghunnah transcribed as a dotless nuun ں in the final position is not used in Iran. However, the sound did exist there. In th Subcontinent it began to be transcribed as ں to indicate nasality. If you have any comments on the nuun-i-Ghunnah, please post them in the thread I have copied above.


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## PersoLatin

Please refer to the picture of the handwritten text in post #9:

The handwritten text says ‌خورده‌اندی or می‌خورده‌اند which grammatically is more appropriate in the given context.

Also there’s no تا.


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## Qureshpor

PersoLatin said:


> Please refer to the picture of the handwritten text in post #9:
> 
> The handwritten text says ‌خورده‌اندی or می‌خورده‌اند which grammatically is more appropriate in the given context. Also there’s no تا.


The manuscript also appears to have..

من نی دارم = من نے دارم for من ندارم.


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## Eastern Ludicrous Writer

Qureshpor said:


> please post them in the thread I have copied above.


OK, thanks!


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## PersoLatin

Also in the manuscript, I couldn’t see دیر ستی the best word i can see is درستی


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## Qureshpor

PersoLatin said:


> Also in the manuscript, I couldn’t see دیر ستی the best word i can see is درستی


The words are indeed "der aste" دیر استے. I copied this sentence from Gilbert Lazard's "La langue des plus anciens monuments de la prose persane."


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## PersoLatin

Qureshpor said:


> The words are indeed "der aste" دیر استے. I copied this sentence from Gilbert Lazard's "La langue des plus anciens monuments de la prose persane."


Was the manuscript, or a handwritten copy of it by someone else?


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## Qureshpor

I copied the sentence in question from Gilbert Lazard's work and it did not have Persian script in it, but it was in the Latin script. So, the words were "dēr astē".


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## PersoLatin

Qureshpor said:


> How would you translate the prose sentence into English?


The manuscript as I remember it   in modern Perso-Arabic:
اگر که من نیستمی دیرستی مغزهای شما کرکسان خورده‌اندی
Rephrased:
اگر که من نمی‌بودم دیر می‌بود و مغزهای شما را کرکسان می‌خورده‌اند
If I had not been it would’ve been late and your brains would have been eaten by vultures.

If you replace نیستمی (maybe first to نیرسیدمی) then you’d have نمیرسیدم, this is in current use: اگر نم‌ی‌رسیدم می‌رفته‌اند
if I hadn’t arrived they would have gone.

In modern colloquial Persian می‌رفته‌اند will be pronounced close to می‌رفتن, more like mi..rafta..n where dots stretch the letter before them.


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## Eastern Ludicrous Writer

Qureshpor said:


> The nuun-i-Ghunnah transcribed as a dotless nuun ں


I know what is نون غنیه!!!

The poem is from *جاوید نامه

Iranian Farsi version:*
سراغ او ز خیابان لاله میگیرند
نوای خون شدهٔ ما ز ما چه میجوئی
نظر ز صحبت روشندلان بیفزاید
ز درد کم بصری توتیا چه میجوئی
قلندریم و کرامات ما *جهان بینی *است
ز ما نگاه طلب ، کیمیا چه می جوئی

*Urdu - Farsi version 
جهان with نون غنیه*




*Iqbal handwriting 
جهان *




based on my knowledge in Iranian- Farsi we have no nasal nun as نون غتیه!


Qureshpor said:


> آسمان خواهدے که بر در او


what you call this ے. We call this letter *Baṛī ye. *


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## Qureshpor

PersoLatin said:


> The manuscript as I remember it in modern Perso-Arabic:
> اگر که من نیستمی دیرستی مغزهای شما کرکسان خورده‌اندی
> Rephrased:
> اگر که من نمی‌بودم دیر می‌بود و مغزهای شما را کرکسان می‌خورده‌اند
> If I had not been it would’ve been late and your brains would have been eaten by vultures.
> 
> If you replace نیستمی (maybe first to نیرسیدمی) then you’d have نمیرسیدم, this is in current use: اگر نم‌ی‌رسیدم می‌رفته‌اند
> if I hadn’t arrived they would have gone.
> 
> In modern colloquial Persian می‌رفته‌اند will be pronounced close to می‌رفتن, more like mi..rafta..n where dots stretch the letter before them.


Thank you @PersoLatin for the translation. For me, although I know the precise difference between خوردندے and خوردہ اندے, it does not make any difference when one is translating it in English. I shall use the sentence I quoted originally.

که اگر من نیستمے دیر استے تا مغزھای شما کرگسان خوردندے 

... that if it were n't for me, it would be too late and (consequently/as a result) your brains would be eaten by vultures.

You have n't shared your views why we have a present tense with an ē and a past tense with an ē. (?)


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## Qureshpor

Eastern Ludicrous Writer said:


> I know what is نون غنیه!!!
> 
> The poem is from *جاوید نامه
> 
> Iranian Farsi version:*
> سراغ او ز خیابان لاله میگیرند
> نوای خون شدهٔ ما ز ما چه میجوئی
> نظر ز صحبت روشندلان بیفزاید
> ز درد کم بصری توتیا چه میجوئی
> قلندریم و کرامات ما *جهان بینی *است
> ز ما نگاه طلب ، کیمیا چه می جوئی
> 
> *Urdu - Farsi version
> جهان with نون غنیه*
> 
> View attachment 36273
> *Iqbal handwriting
> جهان *
> 
> View attachment 36272
> based on my knowledge in Iranian- Farsi we have no nasal nun as نون غتیه!
> 
> what you call this ے. We call this letter *Baṛī ye. *


All that needs to be said about nuun-i-Ghunnah in Persian has been said in the thread mentioned already.


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## Eastern Ludicrous Writer

Qureshpor said:


> The nuun-i-Ghunnah transcribed as a dotless nuun ں in


You gave me explanation here and I confirmed that I know it, I used a sample of Iqbal poem in different style of writings.


Qureshpor said:


> What is "ی بریا"?


You asked me question I answered.
Is anything wrong?


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## PersoLatin

Qureshpor said:


> You have n't shared your views why we have a present tense with an ē and a past tense with an ē. (?)


I think you are referring to  است and نیستم & why the author didn’t use بود and نبودم, in the first place.

I don’t know but we can see the author has used the addition of ی (on است & نیست) as a style for converting the present tense to past which he requires for می خورده‌اند to work, of course that style can not work with other verbs.


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## Eastern Ludicrous Writer

Eastern Ludicrous Writer said:


> In نسخه نخجوانی one of the best manuscript which published


HaHaHa!!!! One day they delete my posts and one day they will return my deleted post
پایان سخن شنو که بر ما چه رسید
از حاک برآمدیم و بر باد شدیم

Really? have no access to some Eastern Ludicrous Writer books?
آن یکی نحوی به کشتی در نشست
رو به کشتیبان نهاد آن خودپرست
.
.
گفت کل عمرت ای نحوی فناست
زانک کشتی غرق این گردابهاست
.
.
ای که خلقان را تو خر می‌خوانده‌ای
این زمان چون خر برین یخ مانده‌ای
گر تو علامه زمانی در جهان
نک فنای این جهان بین وین زمان


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## Qureshpor

Eastern Ludicrous Writer said:


> You gave me explanation here and I confirmed that I know it, I used a sample of Iqbal poem in different style of writings.
> You asked me question I answered. Is anything wrong?


No, there is nothing wrong dear Eastern Rediculous Writer. I was trying to say that نونِ غُنّہ had its own thread and I did n't wish to mix up the topic being discussed in this thread with the nuun-i-Ghunnah topic. So, perhaps a bit of misunderstanding.

زبانِ یارِ من ترکی و من ترکی نمیدانم
چہ خوش بودے اگر بودے زبانش در دہانِ من
امیر خسرو دہلوی


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## Qureshpor

PersoLatin said:


> I think you are referring to  است and نیستم & why the author didn’t use بود and نبودم, in the first place.
> 
> I don’t know but we can see the author has used the addition of ی (on است & نیست) as a style for converting the present tense to past which he requires for می خورده‌اند to work, of course that style can not work with other verbs.


To be totally frank, PersoLatin, I don't really know how می خورده‌اند fits into all this. Perhaps I don't understand the exact meaning imparted by می خورده‌اند.

To the best of my understanding (which could well be faulty) the ے added to است، نیست or other verbs such as خواہد (example in my first post) does not convert the present to the past tense. If this were to be true, then خواہدے should also be read in the past meaning in the example cited.


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## PersoLatin

Qureshpor said:


> Perhaps I don't understand the exact meaning imparted by می خورده‌اند.


The translation you offered is absolutely correct but only if می خورده‌اند is used, I’ll find a reference for this tense.



Qureshpor said:


> To the best of my understanding (which could well be faulty) the ے added to است، نیست or other verbs such as خواہد (example in my first post) does not convert the present to the past tense. If this were to be true, then خواہدے should also be read in the past meaning in the example cited.


I did say I don’t know so all of that is conjecture. But also I said addition of ی ( to convert present to past) doesn’t work with other verbs, e.g.  خواہد only with the verb ‘to be’, as there’s no می است and می‌نیستم, which استی and نیستمی are after all l, so the author has used that fact here.

.


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## Eastern Ludicrous Writer

Qureshpor said:


> No, there is nothing wrong


Ok Thanks!


Qureshpor said:


> Eastern Rediculous Writer


My name is Eastern Ludicrous Writer



Qureshpor said:


> زبانِ یارِ من ترکی و من ترکی نمیدانم



زبان یار تو ترکی زبان یار من اردو
چه شادانم، نه این دانم نه آن دانم
زبان یار تو آب است زبان یارمن آتش
بسی شادم نه این خواهم نه آن خواهم
Eastern Ludicrous Writer


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