# ללוות vs לשאול



## dukaine

Both of these words can be used for "to borrow".  Are these used interchangeably?  How would a native say, "I borrowed a dress from my roommate"?


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## mediterraneo24

ללקוח is actualy not a word, the two words for "borrow" are לשאול ולהלוות
They are not interchangeable: לשאול is of higher register and is not used in daily speech.
להלוות is the common word for borrowing, you could say הלוויתי שמלה מהשותפה לדירה שלי


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## Carrot Ironfoundersson

Basically   לִלְווֹת  = to borrow and להלוות = to lend, but mostly this difference is neglected.


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## OsehAlyah

mediterraneo24 said:


> ללקוח is actualy not a word


I wonder if she was thinking of לקחת
the infinitive form of "to take"
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/לקח


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## arielipi

לקחת
לשאול
ללוות
take, borrow, [common] borrow.

להשאיל
להלוות
to lend,[common] lend.

though they arent used interchangeably, but cant explain when each.


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## dukaine

OsehAlyah said:


> I wonder if she was thinking of לקחת
> the infinitive form of "to take"
> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/לקח



You're exactly right; that infinitive lesson must have slipped my brain!!  I heard "lakaxat" used in a practice video that I watched, where two friends in college went to the library, and one guy needed to borrow a pencil and paper from his friend.  Also, in my verbs book, "lilvot" is listed as "borrow (money)".  I saw "lishol" used in a sample sentence in the same book for another verb.


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## arielipi

lish'ol can also be [to] ask, and yes lilvot is more for money, more financial stuff. lish'ol is more material stuff.


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## arbelyoni

Both לשאול and ללוות mean "to borrow", but they're not interchangeable:
לשאול is used when the borrower intends to return the exact same object (book, dress etc.).
ללוות is used when the borrower intends to return something of the same value like the borrowed object, but not the object itself (money, sugar etc.).


> How would a native say, "I borrowed a dress from my roommate"?



שאלתי שמלה מהשותפה שלי לדירה

להשאיל and להלוות mean "to lend" (antonyms of לשאול and ללוות respectively), but many speakers don't make this distinction, and use להשאיל and להלוות for both lending and borrowing.


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## arielipi

no they dont, because lehashil and lehalvot are active-self, and lilvot and lishol are active-dependent!


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## anipo

While there is a clear difference, many people do not make the distinction in daily speech, as arbelyoni already stated.


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## Carrot Ironfoundersson

arielipi said:


> no they dont, because lehashil and lehalvot are *active-self*, and lilvot and lishol are *active-dependent*!



There no need to complicate matters. _Borrow _is just the opposite of _lend  _and that's it.


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## arielipi

pardon missies, i am not here to complicate matters, rather to clarify things.
hebrew is not easy, and we shouldnt teach incorrect hebrew!


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## Carrot Ironfoundersson

We certainly shouldn't. Could you please give a link to the distinction made in your previous post? Borrow and lend are not different from, say, take and give. Just two opposite actions. Both verbs can have direct and indirect objects.


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## arielipi

no they dont was about the "israelis dont distinct between those" in the post above.
and there is no link, i jsut made that with how i felt, because there are verbs that make you the one with the power and opposite ones.


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## dukaine

Which is more commonly used, the פעל or הפעיל ?  mediterraneo24 mentioned that לשאול isn't used in daily conversation.  Is this true of להשיל also?  Also, two distinctions were made between לשאול and ללוות - one was that ללוות was for financial borrowing and לשאול for material borrowing, and that לשאול was for returning the exact same object, while ללוות is used when returning something of equal value, but not the exact same thing.  Are all these true?  So confused right now.


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## OsehAlyah

dukaine said:


> Which is more commonly used, the פעל or הפעיל ?


I don't think this is a valid question.   Which one you use will depend entirely on what you want to say. I think in this case they are actually antonyms so they have the opposite meaning of each other.


dukaine said:


> mediterraneo24 mentioned that לשאול isn't used in daily conversation.


When he said daily I think he meant colloquially. For whatever it might be worth, I tend to see these two as:
1.לשאול  - to ask (I asked this dress from my room mate)
2.ללוות  - to borrow ( I borrowed this dress from my room mate)

Both communicate the same idea, but the two are not exactly the same.


dukaine said:


> Also, two distinctions were made between לשאול and ללוות - one was that ללוות was for financial borrowing and לשאול for material borrowing,


These may not be hard and fast rules but rather guidelines. If you or I were buying a house we would not walk into a bank and "ask" for money (without some very serious consequences) we would most likely be looking to "borrow" money from the bank.


dukaine said:


> and that לשאול was for returning the exact same object, while ללוות is used when returning something of equal value, but not the exact same thing.  Are all these true?


Again, I'm not sure how appropriate is my train of thought here, but when I think of ask it implies that it may or may not be returned. Whereas a loan pretty much requires a return. A neighbor asks you for a cup of sugar or an onion then they may or may not return it. Whereas if they borrow it then they most likely will.


dukaine said:


> So confused right now.


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## Carrot Ironfoundersson

dukaine said:


> Which is more commonly used, the פעל or הפעיל ?  mediterraneo24 mentioned that לשאול isn't used in daily conversation.  Is this true of להשיל also?  Also, two distinctions were made between לשאול and ללוות - one was that ללוות was for financial borrowing and לשאול for material borrowing, and that לשאול was for returning the exact same object, while ללוות is used when returning something of equal value, but not the exact same thing.  Are all these true?  So confused right now.



1)Although the distinction is rather clear (ללוות, לשאול for "borrow" and להלוות, להשאיל for lend), hifil is used more commonly(both for "borrow" and "lend") in informal speech. 
2) One can לשאול ממישהו a book, a car, a cellphone, an item of clothing etc.  for an hour, a day, a week etc. For expendable items like money, sugar, paper and such I'd rather use ללוות or לבקש.


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## rosemarino

Morfix also gives the expression לקחת בהשאלה.  How does that fit in?

חג שמח לכולם.


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## arbelyoni

> Which is more commonly used, the פעל or הפעיל ?


The difference is very clear in the standard language: לווה and שאל are used for "borrow". הלווה and השאיל are used for "lend".
It is not uncommon, however, to hear Israelis use השאיל and הלווה for "borrow" in colloquial day-to-day Hebrew:
החזרתי את הספר שהשאלתי מהספרייה
אפשר להלוות ממך 20 שקל?
The examples above are not considered correct or proper Hebrew, but they are common and prevalent among many Israelis; too common for us to ignore. (Read more here)


> Also, two distinctions were made between לשאול and ללוות - one was that ללוות was for financial borrowing and לשאול for material borrowing, and that לשאול was for returning the exact same object, while ללוות is used when returning something of equal value, but not the exact same thing. Are all these true?


The traditional distinction is the latter (also according to Even Shoshan): שאל when one returns the same object, לווה when one returns the value of the object.
לווה/הלווה is mainly used for money, but not only: when you ask your neighbor for a cup of sugar and two eggs, you - _לווה _כוס סוכר ושתי ביצים.


> When he said daily I think he meant colloquially. For whatever it might be worth, I tend to see these two as:
> 1.לשאול - to ask (I asked this dress from my room mate)
> 2.ללוות - to borrow ( I borrowed this dress from my room mate)


לשאול has two different meanings: "to ask (a question)" and "to borrow". I would translate your first phrase as: ביקשתי את השמלה הזאת מהשותפה שלי
Note that לשאול is not used in Hebrew for asking requests.


> Morfix also gives the expression לקחת בהשאלה. How does that fit in?


It has the same meaning like לשאול.


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## rosemarino

> לשאול has two different meanings: "to ask (a question)" and "to borrow". I would translate your first phrase as: ביקשתי את השמלה הזאת מהשותפה שלי
> Note that לשאול is not used in Hebrew for asking requests.
> 
> Morfix also gives the expression לקחת בהשאלה. How does that fit in?
> 
> 
> It has the same meaning like לשאול.



Could you say

ביקשתי בהשאלה את השמלה הזאת מהשותפה שלי?

Or, if this is correct, is it too high a register?

Otherwise couldn't  ביקשתי את השמלה הזאת מהשותפה שלי have the meaning, I asked her to give it to me (as a gift).  Or is it understood contextually?


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## arielipi

The second is not good,rather sha'alti\lakahti instead of bikashti.
The first is perfect in my opinion.


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## arbelyoni

> Could you say
> 
> ביקשתי בהשאלה את השמלה הזאת מהשותפה שלי?
> 
> Or, if this is correct, is it too high a register?


Yes, in colloquial Hebrew you could say it; no, it is not too high, but rather low and "improper". In standard, "proper" Hebrew you'd say בקשתי לשאול or בקשתי לקחת בהשאלה.
בהשאלה is an adverb meaning both "borrowingly" and "metaphorically". In standard Hebrew we analyze לבקש בהשאלה as "asking metaphorically".


> Otherwise couldn't ביקשתי את השמלה הזאת מהשותפה שלי have the meaning, I asked her to give it to me (as a gift). Or is it understood contextually?


It means "I asked her for this dress"; it doesn't necessarily mean that I want this dress as a gift, but without any further information, this is likely the case. I wrote it referring to OsehAlyah's post (#16):


> 1.לשאול - to ask (I asked this dress from my room mate)


What I meant to say is that "asking (requests)" is not לשאול but לבקש.


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## rosemarino

Okay, thanks arbelyoni!!


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