# Ukrainian: Москаль



## übermönch

Just a simple question: Is it true that, aside from being a common ethnical slur for a Russian('Muscowite'), it also means something else? ('queer'?)


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## Etcetera

I know only one meaning of this word - it's used as an offensive term for a Muscovite. Don't know if it can be used to describe _any _Russian.


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## cyanista

I'm afraid you are mistaken, Etcetera. Ukrainians (see the title of the thread) use this derogatory word for any Russian. But if used by a Russian it may indeed denote exclusively Muscovites.

I am not aware of any other meanings but then, I am not a Ukrainian either.


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## ucraniana

cyanista said:


> I'm afraid you are mistaken, Etcetera. Ukrainians (see the title of the thread) use this derogatory word for any Russian. But if used by a Russian it may indeed denote exclusively Muscovites.
> 
> I am not aware of any other meanings but then, I am not a Ukrainian either.


 

Hi friends!

I am from Ukraine, though my native language is Russian. 

This word is used as a negative nickname of any Russian-speaking person. Why Moscal: because far in the past the only city that the Ukrainians (Malorusy) new was Moscow. 

I am not sure, but I guess it traces back to the times of Ekaterina II when the Russian soldiers became frequent visitors to the Ukrainian territories. Why it is derogative, first, because it was the time of putting the majority of Ukrainian peasantry to the serfdom due to the decrees Ekaterina issued after Zaporozhskaya Sech was destroyed. The soldiers that appeared to control the situation were treated as invaders. 

Also, it may be because many Ukrainian girls were too naive to trust in these brave guys and their family paid high price for this.:-(( Even now we have surnames Moskalyuk or Moskalenko which means "bastard/unlawful child of a Moscal".

Still I do not insist this version is correct. If anybody has others, please share them!

BR


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## cyanista

Sorry, I have no stories to share but I had much fun reading the article about Москаль in the Ukrainian Wikipedia. It is a well-known fact that Ukrainians weren't (some still aren't) particularly fond of Russians and the old sayings mentioned on the site demonstrate it very clearly. For example: "Тату, тату, лізе чорт у хату" - "Дарма, аби не москаль".  (To be taken with a grain of salt, dear Russians!) But, mind you, this article is very well-considered and informative on the whole!


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## Anatoli

Source: http://gramota.ru/


> *МОСКАЛИ *мн. разг.-сниж.
> 
> 1. Прозвище русских - первоначально солдат - на Украине и в Белоруссии (обычно с оттенком презрительности).


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## werrr

Anatoli said:


> МОСКАЛИ мн. разг.-сниж.
> 
> 1. Прозвище русских - первоначально солдат - на Украине и в Белоруссии (обычно с оттенком презрительности).


The same in Czech:

Moskal(i) = Russian soldier(s)

Used mostly in relation to Russian army in WWI or in Polish-Russian wars, sometimes for bolshevik army in civic war, only rarely for Russian army or Russians at all.

And yes, it's a little pejorative.


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## Jana337

werrr said:


> The same in Czech:
> 
> Moskal(i) = Russian soldier(s)
> 
> Used mostly in relation to Russian army in WWI or in Polish-Russian wars, sometimes for bolshevik army in civic war, only rarely for Russian army or Russians at all.
> 
> And yes, it's a little pejorative.


Really?  Totally new to me. 

Jana


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## Setwale_Charm

I even know a lovely a song: Я хохол мiж клятiх москалiв. sung to the tune of "I`m an Englishman in New-York".


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## Anatoli

Setwale_Charm said:


> I even know a lovely a song: Я хохол мiж клятiх москалiв. sung to the tune of "I`m an Englishman in New-York".


Cool, should it be "Я хохол мiж клятих москалiв."?


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## Setwale_Charm

Anatoli said:


> Cool, should it be "Я хохол мiж клятих москалiв."?


 
 Yes, you are evidently right. I always confuse them: *i *and *и*. Another expression of the nationalistic era that I know is : Геть москалiв с украiнских тюрем!!!


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## Anatoli

Setwale_Charm said:


> Yes, you are evidently right. I always confuse them: *i *and *и*. Another expression of the nationalistic era that I know is : Геть москалiв с украiнских тюрем!!!


Sorry for correcting you again but it's "Геть москалiв з українських тюрем".

I prefer not to promote any such slogans, though - abusing either side.



> I always confuse them: *i *and *и*.


You probably know this but the Ukrainian "и" is pronounced as the Russian "ы" (Polish "y")

So "клятий" is pronounced as "клятый" (in Russian transliteration) = "проклятый".


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## Setwale_Charm

Not at all. I am happy to be corrected. But I think most Ukrainians and Russian both alike take this slogan rather as humourous.


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## Anatoli

Agree but I thought I'll post this disclaimer anyway, because there are people who are serious about this. I personally don't use "хохлы" or "москали" even in joke, why not украинцы - русские?


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## Rulon Oboev

Setwale_Charm said:


> Not at all. I am happy to be corrected. But I think most Ukrainians and Russian both alike take this slogan rather as humourous.


 
Depending on your sense of humour and how familiar do you with your interlocutor. Personally, I'm not offended by word "хохол" in any case.


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## Setwale_Charm

Rulon Oboev said:


> Depending on your sense of humour and how familiar do you with your interlocutor. Personally, I'm not offended by word "õîõîë" in any case.


 
 I wonder what its origins are. What does it mean originally?


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## Rulon Oboev

Setwale_Charm said:


> I wonder what its origins are. What does it mean originally?


 
Origins of words "khohol" and " moskal' "?
As already wrote, moskal' - rude meaning (Ukrainian, Polish) of Russian soldier and khohol is a favorite haircut of kozaks (kossacks). Ukrainians who escaped from slavery united in a military oriented groups. They call themselves kozaks. Kozaks call this haircut as "оселедець" (oseledets). "хохол" (khohol) is a Russian rude variant of oseledets. 
ABBYY Lingvo:
Хохол - topknot, tuft of hair.
Here, take a look:

Oops, can not post it.
"You are only allowed to post URLs to other sites after you have made 30 posts or more."
 
Oops, can not post it.
"You are only allowed to post URLs to other sites after you have made 30 posts or more."


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## Marijka

http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Оселедець
http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Хохли


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