# Then and Than, genus pongo



## Christhiane

I've noticed that a few native English speakers have difficulties with the difference between then and than. Even though I'm not a native speaker, I've personally never had any problems. So when I see people writing 'larger then' for instance, I wonder why it is.

I know that 'than' is used to: 

'introduce a second part of a comparison,'
'comparing amounts, numbers, distances, etc.'
'showing that one thing happens straight after another.'
I also know that 'then' is used to:

'refer to a particular time in the past or future,'
'introduce the next item in a series of actions, events, instructions, etc.
'show the logical result of a particular statement or situation'
'introduce additional information'
'introduce a summary of something that has just been said
'show the beginning and the end of a conversation, statement, etc.
To quote my 'Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary.'

Anyone? =)


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## garryknight

Christhiane said:
			
		

> when I see people writing 'larger then' for instance, I wonder why it is.


I think it's simply that they don't know how it's spelt. There are also British people who spell "our" as "are" simply because that's how they pronounce the word.


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## jacinta

Yes, I agree.  It's just a matter of learning to spell.  Some are just better at it, I guess.  Another problem I see is keeping all the "there's" straight.
There
they're
their

and your
you're

Words that sound similar cause problems.


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## Christhiane

garryknight said:
			
		

> I think it's simply that they don't know how it's spelt. There are also British people who spell "our" as "are" simply because that's how they pronounce the word.



Really? That's something I've never seen! Interesting. 

But maybe it is so that it's only bad knowledge about spelling, thoug I pronounce 'then' and 'than' differently. =) 




			
				jacinta said:
			
		

> There
> they're
> their
> 
> and your
> you're



A lot of people here as well have problems with those words.


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## Wordsmyth

Christhiane said:
			
		

> I've noticed that a few native English speakers have difficulties with the difference between then and than. Even though I'm not a native speaker, I've personally never had any problems. So when I see people writing 'larger then' for instance, I wonder why it is. [...]


Sometimes, as Garry & Jacinta say, it's because people don't know how to spell. But it can also be a simple case of inattention.

Writer thinks "than"; brain moves on to the next word; hand starts to write; brain remembers a "th*n" word; hand writes "then".

Most people would notice the error if they re-read what they've written -- though sometimes not, because the brain can compensate and read "then" as "than" if it fits the context better.

W


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## Outsider

I think _then_ and _than_ are pronounced in a similar way, at least in some accents.


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## sp00ky05

I think you say than a bit louder than then.  I think that's how I pronounce it anyways.


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## Christhiane

Yeah, I think they are supposed to be prononced the same... except a rare strong form of 'than' has an 'a' in its phonetics. 

Or that is what my dictionary informs me. =) 



			
				Wordsmyth said:
			
		

> Most people would notice the error if they re-read what they've written -- though sometimes not, because the brain can compensate and read "then" as "than" if it fits the context better.



Yeah, I do that all the time with lots of words while writing and proofreading. It's very annoying since I don't notice my errors and let them continue being incorrect.


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## Benjy

herm.. in which accents would then and than be pronounced the same? to me they sound like two very distinct seperate words.


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## Outsider

Not exactly the same, I think, but similar.
Some American accents.


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## suzzzenn

> herm.. in which accents would then and than be pronounced the same? to me they sound like two very distinct seperate words.


 
Hi Benjy, 

I usually pronounce "then" and "than" the same way. The way I say "than" varies occasionally. I always think of my accent as so neutral even though I know there is no such thing!


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## Wordsmyth

Benjy said:
			
		

> herm.. in which accents would then and than be pronounced the same? to me they sound like two very distinct seperate words.


And to me, Ben, but as Outsider implied this is is definitely an AE/BE thing. In all the American accents I can think of, the short 'a' is much closer to an 'e' sound (or sometimes to a long 'a') than it is in BE. Hence the reaction of our AE foreros -- even going as far as: 





			
				suzzzenn said:
			
		

> I usually pronounce "then" and "than" the same way.


 ... which sounds astonishing to BE ears.

W


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## PSIONMAN

Christhiane said:
			
		

> I've noticed that a few native English speakers have difficulties with the difference between then and than. Even though I'm not a native speaker, I've personally never had any problems. So when I see people writing 'larger then' for instance, I wonder why it is.




I agree it could be that people have not learned to spell. When my son was quite old (about 11) he used to write 'of' for 'have' as in ... 'he must of done it'


I think he's got over it now


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## Nick

Benjy said:
			
		

> herm.. in which accents would then and than be pronounced the same? to me they sound like two very distinct seperate words.


That is why they are commonly confused -- because they oftentimes sound identical.

"He's taller then me" vs "He's taller than me". Both are pronounced the same (sometimes there is a small difference) in America. The first is wrong on paper but fine in speech because there is no differenciating between "than" and "then" (most of the time, that is).


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## Wordsmyth

So there's very definitely an AE/BE difference here, but on reflection I think there's one American accent where 'then' and 'than' have distinctly different vowel sounds : 

In New York (and the locals will probably tell me it's only in Queens or Brooklyn or whatever!  ) : 'then' has a very short short 'e', and 'than' is prounounced with a neutral vowel (schwa).

And those vowel sounds are pretty much the same as in BE (at least southern): 
then and th'n  
(I'm using an apostrophe for the schwa; can't find how to get IPA symbols into a post)

Of course the consonant sound in the NY accent I'm talking about is another thing:
den and d'n  

"Noo Yoik is bedda d'n Noo Joisey"  

Natives please correct me if you see (hear!) it differently.

W


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## gotitadeleche

Nick said:
			
		

> That is why they are commonly confused -- because they oftentimes sound identical.
> 
> "He's taller then me" vs "He's taller than me". Both are pronounced the same (sometimes there is a small difference) in America. The first is wrong on paper but fine in speech because there is no differenciating between "than" and "then" (most of the time, that is).



I disagree, they are not pronounced the same. They are distinctly different, although in rapid speech it might not be noticed.


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## Wordsmyth

I just realised that suzzzenn, who's located in NY, says in post #11 that she usually pronounces "then" and "than" the same way.

So I'm guessing, Susan, that you're in NY but not from NY (?)  Or just don't have that accent? 

Or should I be rethinking my post #14?

W


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## JohninVirginia

I grew up in Baltimore Maryland, USA and pronounce them both "then", rhymes with "hen". "Than" may have a slight shallow 'a' sound to it, like the 'a' in 'pat', but barely just a suggestion of it. I'm sure my kids don't know the difference.
When I try to fake a British (London?) accent, I pronounce "than" to rhyme with the 'a' in 'pat'.

In the southern USA drawl, most exaggerated maybe in Georgia, they both can be pronounced as "thay-in" (soft 'th'), rhymes with "sayin' "

an online dictionary lists a shallow 'e' for 'then' (rhymes with 'pet'), but a shallow 'a' (rhymes with 'pat') or a 'schwa' (rhymes with the 'a' in 'about' or the 'u' in 'circus') for 'than'.


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## timpeac

This difference has come up a few times in the past in various guises. The difference is always large between the two vowels in BE. I have seen some Americans claim they are identical, some say they are similar, and some completely different just as we have seen in this thread!

I think it was Gaer - someone called Gary in any case - who said that his name would rhyme with Jerry. I think that was in a thread in which I asked about the American pronunciation of "Tara" which sounds to my BE ears like "terror" when pronounced by Americans, or at least those in Buffy (since we BE speakers don't pronounce "r" at the end of words)!


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## JohninVirginia

timpeac said:
			
		

> This difference has come up a few times in the past in various guises. The difference is always large between the two vowels in BE. I have seen some Americans claim they are identical, some say they are similar, and some completely different just as we have seen in this thread!
> 
> I think it was Gaer - someone called Gary in any case - who said that his name would rhyme with Jerry. I think that was in a thread in which I asked about the American pronunciation of "Tara" which sounds to my BE ears like "terror" when pronounced by Americans, or at least those in Buffy (since we BE speakers don't pronounce "r" at the end of words)!


 
I think there's a law of conservation of consonants, such that the 'r' which the British lose at the end of a word such as "heater" is replaced with an 'r' at the end of a word such as "Brenda".

And "the vice is versa" here in the states.


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## suzzzenn

> I just realised that suzzzenn, who's located in NY, says in post #11 that she usually pronounces "then" and "than" the same way.
> 
> So I'm guessing, Susan, that you're in NY but not from NY (?) Or just don't have that accent?
> 
> Or should I be rethinking my post #14?


Hi Word, 

No, you don't have to rethink your post. I can't speak for all NY accents. It's a big state and accents vary from place to place. I can only say how I pronounce things. Even though I have been here for ten years, I lived elsewhere for a while. My accent may be a bit muddled.


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## Kelly B

There are other American accents besides suzzzenn's in which you cannot tell the difference between the words:

I slip into a southwestern Virginia accent once in a while and then the sentence suggested earlier becomes "He's taller'n me." Just try to figure out which than I'm using then?! Judging from recent press conferences, I suspect that pronunciation is not unusual in Texas, either.
Then there's a midwestern-flavored accent that I sometimes hear in western NY where it would be "He's taller thee-an me." (Cringe). You can't tell how that one should be spelled by listening to it, either.


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## Wordsmyth

Kelly B said:
			
		

> There are other American accents besides suzzzenn's in which you cannot tell the difference between the words:
> 
> I slip into a southwestern Virginia accent once in a while and then the sentence suggested earlier becomes "He's taller'n me." Just try to figure out which than I'm using then?! Judging from recent press conferences, I suspect that pronunciation is not unusual in Texas, either.
> Then there's a midwestern-flavored accent that I sometimes hear in western NY where it would be "He's taller thee-an me." (Cringe). You can't tell how that one should be spelled by listening to it, either.


Thanks for all those examples, Kelly. Confirms my belief that there are probably as many different US accents as there are Brit accents -- although in the US you have to travel further to pass from one to another (except perhaps in Manhattan, where you can hear all the accents of the US, maybe of the world, within a dozen blocks!).

W


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## Wordsmyth

JohninVirginia said:
			
		

> I think there's a law of conservation of consonants, such that the 'r' which the British lose at the end of a word such as "heater" is replaced with an 'r' at the end of a word such as "Brenda". [...]


Except for the exceptions John. Tim also mentioned BE speakers not pronouncing 'r' at the end of words: indeed that 'r' is totally absent in 'posh' speech, and there's only the slightest hint of it in RP and in some regional accents.

But in some regions it's well and truly there: all of the South-West of England, most of Scotland, some parts of Wales, and even one of the Manchester area accents (can't remember which one: Oldham side maybe?).

Similarly for Brenda+r : it's fairly localised. I really liked the "law of conservation of consonants", LOL, but it goes wrong in the South-West, where the 'r' is strong on both 'heater' and "Brender".

On the other hand the law works pretty well with the 'L' in Bristol, where Brendal, Rebeccal, Annal and Victorial drive Hondals and Toyotals -- but drop the finaw L in verbaw, loyaw, usefuw ...  and of course in Bristow!!

Hmmm, looks as if Wordsith's back!  

W


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## timpeac

Wordsmyth said:
			
		

> Except for the exceptions John. Tim also mentioned BE speakers not pronouncing 'r' at the end of words: indeed that 'r' is totally absent in 'posh' speech, and there's only the slightest hint of it in RP and in some regional accents.
> 
> But in some regions it's well and truly there: all of the South-West of England, most of Scotland, some parts of Wales, and even one of the Manchester area accents (can't remember which one: Oldham side maybe?).
> 
> Similarly for Brenda+r : it's fairly localised. I really liked the "law of conservation of consonants", LOL, but it goes wrong in the South-West, where the 'r' is strong on both 'heater' and "Brender".
> 
> On the other hand the law works pretty well with the 'L' in Bristol, where Brendal, Rebeccal, Annal and Victorial drive Hondals and Toyotals -- but drop the finaw L in verbaw, loyaw, usefuw ... and of course in Bristow!!
> 
> Hmmm, looks as if Wordsith's back!
> 
> W


 
True. I have no final r's or l's. At uni two of my best friends were Irish and Scottish, and they used to love to make me say "walls" and chuckle to themselves "waws" "waws". Ah, crazy days.


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## Wordsmyth

timpeac said:
			
		

> True. I have no final r's or l's. At uni two of my best friends were Irish and Scottish, and they used to love to make me say "walls" and chuckle to themselves "waws" "waws". Ah, crazy days.


Accent spotting time   : I'd guess that makes you South-East , Tim (??)

W


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## timpeac

Wordsmyth said:
			
		

> Accent spotting time  : I'd guess that makes you South-East , Tim (??)
> 
> W


 
Yeah, Bucks.


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## panjandrum

Deeply into rhotic and non-rhotic accents here, which is way off the topic.  My kids STILL get were and where mixed up (average age 28).
As a confirmed rhotic speaker, I get hysterical about the BBC version of "laura nawda" for law and order, and was especially intrigued by Oliver Seer - who used to sign off the BBC Today Programme on Radio 4 - "....and it's goodbye from Oliver Seer (all of us here) in the studio".


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## gotitadeleche

panjandrum said:
			
		

> Deeply into rhotic and non-rhotic accents here, which is way off the topic.  My kids STILL get were and where mixed up (average age 28).
> As a confirmed rhotic speaker, I get hysterical about the BBC version of "laura nawda" for law and order, and was especially intrigued by Oliver Seer - who used to sign off the BBC Today Programme on Radio 4 - "....and it's goodbye from Oliver Seer (all of us here) in the studio".



Pardon my ignorance---What is rhotic? I didn't find it in the dictionary.


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## daviesri

No matter how you pronounce it, you should still be able to spell it properly.  Lazy spelling is the reason for so many people getting them mixed up.  The same with there, their, they're and were and where.


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## panjandrum

Please accept my apologies. 
Rhotic accents actively pronounce "r" where it appears. Non-rhotic don't. So a rhotic accent will fully pronounce both "r"s in "worker", whereas a non-rhotic accent will pronounce the word as "wuhkuh" or something similar. 
Say "worker" and think carefully about whether your tongue moves or not as you say it. If you are rhotic, it will be very active. If you are non-rhotic, it will not move at all.
For an excellent explanation, see "The Oxford Companion to the English Language", or apply personally to me (a rhotic speaker) for further instruction.


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## JohninVirginia

Wordsmyth said:
			
		

> Except for the exceptions John. Tim also mentioned BE speakers not pronouncing 'r' at the end of words: indeed that 'r' is totally absent in 'posh' speech, and there's only the slightest hint of it in RP and in some regional accents.
> 
> But in some regions it's well and truly there: all of the South-West of England, most of Scotland, some parts of Wales, and even one of the Manchester area accents (can't remember which one: Oldham side maybe?).
> 
> Similarly for Brenda+r : it's fairly localised. I really liked the "law of conservation of consonants", LOL, but it goes wrong in the South-West, where the 'r' is strong on both 'heater' and "Brender".
> 
> On the other hand the law works pretty well with the 'L' in Bristol, where Brendal, Rebeccal, Annal and Victorial drive Hondals and Toyotals -- but drop the finaw L in verbaw, loyaw, usefuw ...  and of course in Bristow!!
> 
> Hmmm, looks as if Wordsith's back!
> 
> W



You must have heard of the famous anecdote in which the American actress Jean Harlowe met the British ballerina Margot Fontaine, and asked, "Is your name spelled 'M-a-r-g-o' or 'M-a-r-g-o-t'"; to which Ms. Fontaine replied, "It's 'M-a-r-g-o-t'".  The 'T' is silent, as in "Harlowe"


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## JohninVirginia

daviesri said:
			
		

> No matter how you pronounce it, you should still be able to spell it properly. Lazy spelling is the reason for so many people getting them mixed up. The same with there, their, they're and were and where.



...and wear.

"A weyr is where a dragon lives."


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## JohninVirginia

daviesri said:
			
		

> No matter how you pronounce it, you should still be able to spell it properly. Lazy spelling is the reason for so many people getting them mixed up. The same with there, their, they're and were and where.



Actually, shouldn't 'were' go with 'whirr'?


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## daviesri

JohninVirginia said:
			
		

> Actually, shouldn't 'were' go with 'whirr'?


 
I agree with you, that the above go together as far as pronunciation.  The problem is that I have seen 'were' used for 'where' and visa versa in writing many times.


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## panjandrum

Uh, sowwy to be bowing abaht the wottic (rhotic) topic.  My friendly Oxford Companion lists the following as mainly-rhotic: "Canada; India; Ireland; south-western England; Scotland; the northern and western states of the US apart from the Boston area and New York city; Barbados.  Mainly non-rhotic are: Black Africa; Australia; the Caribbean, except for Barbados; England, apart, in the main, from the south-west; New Zealand; South Africa; the southern states, the Boston area of New England, and New York vernacular speech; and Black English Vernacular in the US; Wales."


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## timpeac

gotitadeleche said:
			
		

> Pardon my ignorance---What is rhotic? I didn't find it in the dictionary.


 
Just to explain to any non-English speakers (or even English speakers who didn't realise) I think that what panjandrum is referring to here is not only in my accent would I not pronounce the "r" at the end of a word, but I would put it in where it doesn't exist to prevent two vowels coming together (in certain circumstances).

So whereas many English speakers would say "law and order" as "looooah and order" I would say "looah rand order". There is no difference in the pronunciation, in my accent, or "sawing" and "soaring". This is something I hadn't even noticed before said Scottish and Irish friends pointed it out. Not only do South eastern English speakers not pronounce "r"s where the exist, but we insert them where they don't exist!


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## panjandrum

Thanks Timpeac.  True.  We rhotics hear you say "law and order" without the "r" where it appears in the spelling, and WITH an "r" where it does not appear in the spelling!  For some reason we find this funny because we are able to articulate the words as they are written.  I hesitate to correct you, but I am convinced that I would hear you say "laura naw daw".  Strangely, if I said "looah rand order" the way those letters suggest, I would sound half-Geordie!


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## timpeac

panjandrum said:
			
		

> Thanks Timpeac. True. We rhotics hear you say "law and order" without the "r" where it appears in the spelling, and WITH an "r" where it does not appear in the spelling! For some reason we find this funny because we are able to articulate the words as they are written. I hesitate to correct you, but I am convinced that I would hear you say "laura naw daw". Strangely, if I said "looah rand order" the way those letters suggest, I would sound half-Geordie!


 
Yes, quite true panjandrum. Your words are a better transliteration of what I would say.


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## Wordsmyth

I'd like to add some new rhotic comments to this thread, but I'm feeling quite calm and unemotional at the moment  

W


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## Wordsmyth

JohninVirginia said:
			
		

> You must have heard of the famous anecdote in which the American actress Jean Harlowe met the British ballerina Margot Fontaine, and asked, "Is your name spelled 'M-a-r-g-o' or 'M-a-r-g-o-t'"; to which Ms. Fontaine replied, "It's 'M-a-r-g-o-t'".  The 'T' is silent, as in "Harlowe"


No John, I hadn't, but I l-i-i-i-ke it 



			
				JohninVirginia said:
			
		

> "A weyr is where a dragon lives."


... but how many people knew that pre-Ms.McCaffrey?

W


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## Wordsmyth

daviesri said:
			
		

> I agree with you, that the above go together as far as pronunciation.  The problem is that I have seen 'were' used for 'where' and visa versa in writing many times.


... and 'visa' used for 'vice'?  

Sorry about that ... Wordsith strikes again!!  

W


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## JohninVirginia

panjandrum said:
			
		

> Uh, sowwy to be bowing abaht the wottic (rhotic) topic. My friendly Oxford Companion lists the following as mainly-rhotic: "Canada; India; Ireland; south-western England; Scotland; the northern and western states of the US apart from the Boston area and New York city; Barbados. Mainly non-rhotic are: Black Africa; Australia; the Caribbean, except for Barbados; England, apart, in the main, from the south-west; New Zealand; South Africa; the southern states, the Boston area of New England, and New York vernacular speech; and Black English Vernacular in the US; Wales."


 
>>Black English Vernacular<<

Where does "shi-mo-fo" fall in the spectrum of rhotic vs. non-rhotic speech?

LOL


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## panjandrum

*JiV:*  You're way over my head there!  I only quoted the book, don't claim to be able to justify what it says   In any case, as the book was printed more than half-an-hour ago, it is WAY out of date in that respect.


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## JohninVirginia

panjandrum said:
			
		

> *JiV:* You're way over my head there! I only quoted the book, don't claim to be able to justify what it says In any case, as the book was printed more than half-an-hour ago, it is WAY out of date in that respect.


 
I was just messin' with you.

"Shi mo fo" is a saying in black USA vernacular which translates loosely as, "Darn, sir!"  (There are several syllables as well as several 'r's dropped from the saying.)

LOL
John in Virginia


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## panjandrum

No problem John: taken as meant.  I wonder, would the original would be both scatological and incestuous?


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## JohninVirginia

panjandrum said:
			
		

> No problem John: taken as meant. I wonder, would the original would be both scatological and incestuous?


 
Most perspicacious of you!


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## Kelly B

And Oedipal, besides.


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## panjandrum

_*MAX CHUCKLE*_
I wanted to say that, but I wasn't certain that Oedipus had gone quite so far, even in anticipation.  Clearly my classical education needs a boost.


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