# וּבְצָהֳלָה - pronunciation



## deswind

Many know this word as being in Lecha Dodi וּבְצָהֳלָה - I have heard several different procounciations of the vowels.
Everything from tzahala  tzahola  tzohola   tzawhola, etc

What is the proper way to pronounce the vowels in this word?

THANKS very much in advance.  
AB


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## origumi

The correct pronounciation is "u-ve-tzohola". Modern Hebrew speakers are likely to pronounce it (outside the poetic context) "ve-be-tzahala".


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## deswind

Thank you very much.


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## roltan

deswind said:


> Many know this word as being in Lecha Dodi וּבְצָהֳלָה - I have heard several different procounciations of the vowels.
> Everything from tzahala  tzahola  tzohola   tzawhola, etc
> 
> What is the proper way to pronounce the vowels in this word?
> 
> THANKS very much in advance.
> AB



You missed the UhVuh, but that's no doubt 'cos everybody pronounces that bit the same

Breaking it down.

Vav with Shuruk   (all-  uh)
Vet with Vocal Shva (all- vuh)
Tzaddik with Kamatz Gadol 
  (ashkenazim - Tzoh.  - yemenites I think also do OH for every kamatz as ashkenazim do)
  (sephardim- Tzah)
Heh with Chataf Kamatz
  (ashkenazim- Tzoh)
  (sephardim- Tzoh)
Lamed with Kamatz Gadol
  (ashkenazim- Loh)
  (sephardim- Lah)
Heh alone


so.

ashkenazim.  uhvuhtzohholoh  
Any letter with T, any kamatz, in any form, is OH.  
So,  OH OH OH   Tzoh Hoh Loh

sephardim,  uhvuh tzahholah.   
The only OH, for sephardim, in that word, is the vowel under the middle HEH.
Tzah Hoh Lah


The OH I refer to. is a sound that doesn't exist in american english! It does exist in british english.
Listen to a british person say OFF, DOG,BOB,DOCK,ORANGE.

some americans manage it when they say democrat.  other americans don't 'cos they say it like they say orange.

The Rinat Yisrael siddur shows you which Kamatz are OH , by extending the stem.
It'd be the kamatz katan and the chataf kamatz.


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## deswind

thanks - do yo know of any sound clip, mp3, youtube, etc. that would have this correct pronounciation in the Sephardic? It sounds like hearing it would be a lot better than trying to come up with an English equivalent. But I have an Israeli friend here and you went through a lot of effort to write back, so I will check with that friend in any event.

THANKS for everything.
AB


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## roltan

DON'T QUOTE THIS POST IN A REPLY


I checked 2 lecha dodis on youtube but they were not clear..

Look, I found one. It sounds clear.
I would amend the way he does it. But I can explain how.. very simple amendment. 

<< link removed by moderator >>
great jewish music  - lecha dodi
1:46

Uh (yes)
Vuh(yes)

Tzoh(I think not. It should be Tzah, like the Lah he does at the end)
Hoh (yes)
Lah (yes)


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## deswind

Thank you.  You are very kind.  One note - I thought the sb'va should the Vet should sound like the e in the English word "bet?"

I will check out the You tube link.

Have a great night!
AB


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## roltan

no prob..

The vocal shva(the sound under the letter bet), is not like an e.like the word "bet" or "red"

The 'e' in the english word "bet" or "red", is a segol, (the 3 dots.in the form of an upside down triangle)
Listen to lecha dodi, ECHAD  (shamor vezachor vediboor Echad)
and see the 3 dots under the Aleph of Echad in the siddur.


I am interested in pronunciations of SHVA and who pronounces it in which way.
So if anybody else pronounces the SHVA differently, and you can get a clear answer from them as to how they pronounce it, along with what tradition of pronunciation he is using, then that'd be interesting.

If somebody says that a SHVA is pronounced EH, then how does he do a segol(As in echad) 'cos a segol is EH.  
And if he says it's IH, then how does he do MIN(as in the hebrew word from) 'cos MIN uses the chirik, which is IH.
I pronounce SHVA like in SEvere, or Banana. 

Do report back.. the more info the better!

be interesting to see what the israeli wrote..if anything differing.


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## deswind

I was told by an Israeli who contacted a relative who taught Hebrew in Israel (like double hearsay!) - that there was a conference on this in Israel and it was decided to pronounce the sh'va (when it is pronouned) with the eh sound. The example is Lecha Dodi itself. I do not believe it is Luhcha dodi. But Lecha dodi. Shekhinah is another one. Sh'va under the Shin. Yes it has the same sound as the segol from what I can tell.

Is this guy a good accurate speaker? http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0101.htm

I will check with some others tomorrow as I will be seeing some Israelis tomorrow night.

THANKS,
AB


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## roltan

mechon mamre would certainly have an accurate guy..

I notice he got the syllable accent right e.g. Kara(hoo kara lyla) - accent on the first syllable of kara. So that's a good sign.

Listening to it..I think the style he uses is probably that 
Chirik is ih
and Chirik yud is ee

So  he says Buhraisheet.  and  Elokeem 

I have a book called How the hebrew language grew which says, and this appears natural too.  That a chirik in an open syllable, is EE.   A Chirik in a closed syllable is IH.
So, beraishit,  elokim.   It disputes the idea of long/short vowels, but doesn't make much of a case against them. long/short vowels are a foundation of lots of rules in hebrew grammar.

Everybody would say dodee as ee, as he does.

Regarding the Shva. One knowledgeable guy I know, does IH, like bit, but doesn't say it has to be done like that.  That's not mentioned in wikipedia.
According to wikipedia, and to some you spoke to, some do EH and some do UH.  UH is like that guy in the lecha dodi mp3, and the guy on machon mamre.. and that's how I learnt it too.

If you can verify whether the shva EH people pronounce it exactly the same as the segol, that's be interesting.. or if you run into anything else!


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## deswind

I wonder if we all hear things a little different based on our original language accents (i.e. mine from upstate N.Y.)

When I hear the line* attached* from Mechon-Mamre- I hear the eh sounds with the Sh'va.

How about you?

THANKS for conversing.

AB


<< attachment to audio file removed by moderator >>


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## roltan

we are hearing the same.

the first letter he says is an UH SHVA.

You should've posted the verse so we can see the vowels, it's Psalms 36:10
י  כִּי-עִמְּךָ, מְקוֹר חַיִּים;    בְּאוֹרְךָ, נִרְאֶה-אוֹר. 	10 For with Thee is the fountain of life; in Thy light do we see light.

There is no SHVA before Ohr.  You were hearing the segol of NirEh-Ohr

Listen to him from Gen 1:1 
BUH raishit
VUH haaretz
VUH choshech
VUH ruach
VUH haaretz


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## deswind

Actually - I am referring to the sh'va under the mem  - in Ki im-me-cha

it is like Yerushalayim - I am hearing the eh sound under the first yud.  But maybe it is my hearing!


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## roltan

deswind said:


> Actually - I am referring to the sh'va under the mem  - in Ki im-me-cha
> 
> it is like Yerushalayim - I am hearing the eh sound under the first yud.  But maybe it is my hearing!



he just hangs onto the M for a long time. and then does a little UH with it.
It's still an UH.
Maybe you're hearing the IH under the Ayin "im"
and then when you hear the UH, it sounds like EH to you. 

I don't even hear a slight EH.
If it was EH, you'd really hear it
Think of the word IMECHA or ECHAD.  YVARECH.

Perhaps it's the vocal shwa in the middle of a word. That's throwing you.

Listen from Gen 1, to the words   vehaaretz *HaYuhta* Tohu vavohu

Does that sound funny? it's in the middle of the word..perhaps it sounds a bit "ih" like, but it's not, it's UH.


I guess he isn't crystal clear 'cos of the middle eastern accent!

(the M is doubled the first is silent, the second vocal)
MimMcha

First m is no sound. On the second m, he'd be doing the same sound as he did when he said Braishit.  I guess it's not completely clear. But definitely doesn't sound like a segol! It's not like torat imEHcha or Ehchad.
He's just doing a very quick UH on the M. imMcha
Regardless, it's the same sound as occurs often in Gen 1, as the vowel marks on the text of the verse show, so if you hear something else, then I guess you don't hear him clearly!

So.. that guy is doing an UH

I am interested in  How the people that do SHVA like an EH, do a segol.. There are some that do it like IH, so I wonder how they would do a chirik.


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## deswind

I think we will have to agree to disagree!
for instance:
כִּי-עִמְּךָ, מְקוֹר חַיִּים
I hear the eh sound under the mem in mekor.

But if you hear the uh - that is great with me!

The main thing is that you cared to help me and I appreciate it (even though I guess I am stubborn!)

THANKS,
AB


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## roltan

If he reads that as EH, then either
a)you're hearing it wrong
b)he's reading it wrong

'cos we know that's a SHVA, and we know he pronounces his SHVAs as UH. from how he reads Gen 1.

and since I hear UH, I choose 'a'!

'b' is unlikely too since he's chosen by machon mamre .. they care alot about accuracy! rest assured this guy's a pro!


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## deswind

Here is a little more info:
On p. 308 of Chanting the Hebrew Bible, by Joshua Jacobson, The Jewish Publication Society, Philadelphia, 2002:

'In Contemporary Israeli Hebrew, the _sheva na_ is procnounced like a very short "uh" or "eh." '

Enjoy,
AB


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## hadronic

Not wanting to bash anybody... but by far, the worst explanations ever !
(both for how וּבְצָהֳלָה should be pronounced and how shva should be pronounced too. And also for the IH/EE distinction)

First of, if anything, it's not "uh-vuh" (I dislike very much those English pronunciation approximants, but well...)  but "oo-vuh".
Second, in Israeli ("modern" standard accent), as well as in Sephardic accent, it's "oo-veh".

In Israeli, tsere, segol and shva are all pronounced as EH.


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## hadronic

roltan said:


> a chirik in an open syllable, is EE. A Chirik in a closed syllable is IH.
> So, beraishit, elokim. It disputes the idea of long/short vowels, but doesn't make much of a case against them. long/short vowels are a foundation of lots of rules in hebrew grammar.


 
A chirik in an open syllable OR in a closed _toned _syllable is "ee" (actually, [i:], long i). A chirik in a closed _toneless_ syllable is "ih" (actually, _, short i). This is valid for the massoretic pronunciation.
In Modern Hebrew, it's  throughout._


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## deswind

Thank you. That is what Israeli's have told me. I still put a little "ai" in the tsere, as many Americans do. (and perhaps a throwover from my own ashkenazic roots.) But every source about modern Israeli speaking I can find agrees with your statement. (Of course, when the Sh'va is pronounced!)

Did you agree with tsaw-ho-la ???  (sephardic)  I know these are English approximations.



hadronic said:


> In Israeli, tsere, segol and shva are all pronounced as EH.


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## deswind

By the way, I spoke with Mechon-Mamre and
the sh'va under the vet is a NACH, and it is
tso-ho-la

so it is -- Uv-tso-ho-la
That is technically correct based on their use of Tiberian manuscripts in pronounciation.


Also, the sh'va if it was pronounced would have more of an "eh" sound (Sephardic).


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## hadronic

No, this shva is definitely NA`.


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## deswind

Only according to modern rules, but not based on Tiberian manuscripts.  Email the folks at Mechon-Mamre who have studied this for years.



hadronic said:


> No, this shva is definitely NA`.


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## roltan

וּבְצָהֳלָה was from lecha dodi. 
Is it spoken on the machon mamre website Deswind? 
Then we could hear how he is pronouncing it. 

I'm wondering also what made you think it was a shva nach in the first place, to have asked machon mamre.. besides the suprising thing of them saying it's a shva nach.

I take hadronic's correction, on what I said about chirik, and shuruk. thanks for the correction. + I guess shuruk, and perhaps kubutz, both those oo vowels, never get pronounced short.

But hadronic, regarding shva na. It's not always 'e'. wikipedia's article on shva na says that in modern hebrew, it's always that 'e'/eh. Transliterated as 'e'. There's a strong suggestion in that article that in classical or biblical hebrew some or all pronounce it [ə]. The article says it's misleading to transliterate it [ə] in modern hebrew. 
Wikipedia's article on tiberian vocalization concurs it says there is a shva na prounced as UH , that's the UH in THE, [ə]. 
That must be more of some traditions. Like some or most ashkenazim. I learnt it as [ə] and i'm ashkenazi.


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## deswind

Unfortunately, it is not on their website.  I gave them the word in hebrew and asked hw to prnounce the kataf kamatz and when they responded THEY ASKED ME why I did not ask about the sh'va.  I assumed it was a Sh'va Na because the "U" is a separate word.
And then they responded they volunteered that information about their work with the Tiberian manuscripts and something about a metag not being on the first vov and therefore the Sh'va being a Nach.  (I hope I am repeating their reasoning correctly.

HOWEVER, they said that most people do not know this.

So I did not know enough to bring it up.  They did.  And they were VERY friendly and very helpful.  I was amazed.  I am going to make a donation to them, franklly.

FWIW - you are probably correct about the "uh" sound with the Ashkenazic tradition.

Listen to many people say Yerushalayim.  Most Ashkenaz I know, say YUHrushalayim.

However, I was listening to the composer if Jerusalem, City of Gold, obviously an Israeli - and she was saying YEHrushalayim.


All the best,
AB



roltan said:


> וּבְצָהֳלָה was from lecha dodi.
> Is it spoken on the machon mamre website Deswind?
> Then we could hear how he is pronouncing it.
> 
> I'm wondering also what made you think it was a shva nach in the first place, to have asked machon mamre.. besides the suprising thing of them saying it's a shva nach.
> 
> I take hadronic's correction, on what I said about chirik, and shuruk. thanks for the correction. + I guess shuruk, and perhaps kubutz, both those oo vowels, never get pronounced short.
> 
> But hadronic, regarding shva na. It's not always 'e'. wikipedia's article on shva na says that in modern hebrew, it's always that 'e'/eh. Transliterated as 'e'. There's a strong suggestion in that article that in classical or biblical hebrew some or all pronounce it [ə]. The article says it's misleading to transliterate it [ə] in modern hebrew.
> Wikipedia's article on tiberian vocalization concurs it says there is a shva na prounced as UH , that's the UH in THE, [ə].
> That must be more of some traditions. Like some or most ashkenazim. I learnt it as [ə] and i'm ashkenazi.


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## roltan

you "and" machon mamre are right.. I looked for another example of shuruk followed by vav with a shva. And to see whether it's nah or nach.
Where no meteg. 'cos a meteg would make it vocal e.g. vayehi gen 1:5. (according to some people.. and according to machon mamre, meteg on one letter makes the next letter's shva vocal)

no meteg... 
Leviticus 13:20 
וּשְׂעָרָהּ

silent shva (shva nach) in my tikkun(chumash one uses for leining).

My tikkun had it right so I guess you don't need tiberian manuscripts!


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## deswind

Mechon is correct.  I knew nothing about it until they told me.  THANKS SO MUCH for finding some examples.  That is fantastic.  I have really enjoyed our communications on this website.  You are a MENSCH!
All the best,
AB



roltan said:


> you "and" machon mamre are right.. I looked for another example of shuruk followed by vav with a shva. And to see whether it's nah or nach.
> Where no meteg. 'cos a meteg would make it vocal e.g. vayehi gen 1:5. (according to some people.. and according to machon mamre, meteg on one letter makes the next letter's shva vocal)
> 
> no meteg...
> Leviticus 13:20
> וּשְׂעָרָהּ
> 
> silent shva (shva nach) in my tikkun(chumash one uses for leining).


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## roltan

deswind said:


> Mechon is correct.  I knew nothing about it until they told me.  THANKS SO MUCH for finding some examples.  That is fantastic.  I have really enjoyed our communications on this website.  You are a MENSCH!
> All the best,
> AB



we've been learning from each other in this thread.. pooling our knowledge and research together and helping each other figure out a question that is of interest to all of us..  
so don't look at it like a one way asker helper situation where you ask get an answer and you feel guilty and indebted!  just people with an interest in this having a discussion.


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## deswind

What is the name of that chumash?  I am interested in it.
THANKS,
AB




roltan said:


> silent shva (shva nach) in my tikkun(chumash one uses for leining).
> 
> My tikkun had it right so I guess you don't need tiberian manuscripts!


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## roltan

deswind said:


> What is the name of that chumash? I am interested in it.
> THANKS,
> AB


 
the tikkun is, 

Tikkun Korim -Simanim

minchas shai
ashkenaz (this may be the commentary is ashkenazi)

It has commentary with rules written in hebrew, I can't understand hebrew well enough to read them. I think it has ashkenazi traditions on how to pronounce written.. I think all the commentary is on pronunciation, though I don't know hebrew well enough to read it.

The main thing I use it for, is it marks Kamatz as kamatz gadol or kamatz katan (this is useful for sephardi and modern hebrew)..
It marks the 2 types of shva. And it might mark the 2 types of dagesh. dagesh kal and dagesh chazak. 

looking at google images for tikun simanim, I see it's the same as the one I have.  nehora.com has one, and same number of pages so same one. and so we know we're looking at the same thing. it's currently $32 there!


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## deswind

Thank you. That is great information. I am going to look for it right now!
All the best,
AB


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## roltan

Sephardim do OOV (this is in the shema too)
Ashkenazim do OO Vuh

so I guess sephardim there act a bit like that shurik isn't a long vowel.. in that I guess it is but they don't make the shwa vocal.

If I remember right.. If there's a meteg on the letter before the letter with the shwa. e.g.  HAYTAH / HAYUHTAH. (In Gen  Hayutah tohu vavohu). 
HEH with a meteg.  Yud with a shwa.
Then some do vocal, some do silent.  This was if i recall what I was told, written by sephardi grammarians  and ashkenazim go by that..
So  I guess when you have a vav-shuruk then a letter with a shwa. If there's a meteg on that vav-shuruk, then sephardim may vary whether vocalizing the shwa or not.  Ashkenazim always do a vocal shwa after a shuruk.

Modern hebrew might follow the ashkenazi way in respect to vav-shuruk followed by a letter with a shwa.. I don't know.


But certainly, ashkenazim don't say OOV.  It's a sephardi thing. That I recall very clearly from somebody that knows what he's talking about.


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## roltan

New
In the case of oovshochbecha/oovuhshochbecha in the shema, where there's also a meteg, i'm not sure if I have it the right way around re who says oov and who says oovuh.. I think it may be ashkenazim say oov and sephardim say oovuh, for oovshochbecha/oovuhshohbecha!

also feldheim tanach simanim is very good for marking them in, bold when vocal.

of course, if sephardim pronounce their vocal shva as eh , and they do a vocal shva there, then it'd be ooveh!


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