# Schwarmgeister, schwärmerisch



## Löwenfrau

My first attempt to render this pair of terms is: Schwarmgeister = fanatics (fanatic people); schwärmerisch = fanatic (to be fanatic). 


"Schlimm genug für den Protestantismus, daß Luther und Melanchthon, die Politiker, keinen Sinn hatten für den _Enthusiasmus (in-Gott-sein)_, die Exzesse _(excessus =_ _ekstasis_) der Schwarmgeister _(schwärmerisch_ seither = _ekstatisch)_." Mauthner

But Mauthner has mentioned _Enthusiasmus_, so I wonder if I should not consider "enthusiastic people" and "enthusiasm" as well. _Fanatic_ is much stronger than just _enthusiastic_.


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## Schimmelreiter

Löwenfrau said:


> Schwarmgeister = fanatics (fanatic people); schwärmerisch = fanatic (to be fanatic).


_
schwärmerisch/fanatic_ is pejorative. Luther preached against the enthusiastic _Schwarmgeister/fanatics. _This explains why _excess_ and _ecstasy_ have since been pejorative, too. I've always been wondering.


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## wandle

The terms 'enthusiasm' and 'enthusiast' in English used to express divine possession or excessive religious zeal. This idea was taken directly from the Greek terms such as _enthusiasmos_ ἐνθουσιασμός defined by LSJ as 'inspiration, enthusiasm, frenzy'. _Enthusiazein_ from ἐνθουσιάζω is defined as 'to be inspired or possessed by a god, to be in ecstasy'.

The idea behind these and related terms in the Greek is that the divine is present in the human, not the other way round, as Mauthner seems to suggest (also the  ending _-ein_ is standard for the Greek present infinitive and does not mean _sein_).

It is true that in the Vulgate _excessus mentis_, or just _excessus_, means a state of ecstasy. From this was derived a similar sense (now obsolete) in English 'excess'.

However, the modern pejorative sense of 'excess' is derived from a different meaning of the Latin: that of going beyond some due bound or limit.

In English the emotion expressed by 'ecstasy', etc., is generally positive: 'I was in ecstasy' implies happiness and elation: similarly 'I was ecstatic'. 
If we mean it negatively, we need to make that explicit: e.g. 'ecstatic with rage' or 'in an ecstasy of rage'.


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## Löwenfrau

Thanks for explanation, wandle. But that doesn't mean you don't agree with the translation of _schwärmerisch_ as _fanatic_, correct? In this case, Mauthner is purposely using a pejorative word.


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## berndf

Löwenfrau said:


> Thanks for explanation, wandle. But that doesn't mean you don't agree with the translation of _schwärmerisch_ as _fanatic_, correct? In this case, Mauthner is purposely using a pejorative word.


If he doesn't disagree, I do. _Schwärmerisch _(~ _enthusiastic_)is not quite the same as _fanatic_. I can't imagine that anyone would use the German words _schwärmerisch _and_ fanatisch_ interchangeably. Duden lists _fanatisch _as synonym of _schwärmerisch_ but I think this requires a very liberal understanding of "synonym", more in the sense of "semantically related".


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## wandle

> Schlimm genug für den Protestantismus, daß Luther und Melanchthon, die Politiker, keinen Sinn hatten für den Enthusiasmus (in-Gott-sein), die Exzesse (excessus = ekstasis) der Schwarmgeister (schwärmerisch seither = ekstatisch). Ekstase ist so christlich, daß ein rechter Christ ohne Ekstase nicht ganz Christ ist.


Mauthner is evidently in favour of _Ekstase_ and is regretting (or is he gloating?) that the Protestant reformers associated that concept with religious error or heresy: which according to DWB is one sense of _Schwärmen_ (_im 16. jahrh. und später gern in religiösem sinne, auf irrgläubigkeit zielend_) and related terms. The progression of sense between the terms in  Mauthner's sentence needs to be handled delicately. Without more work, I would not trust my knowledge of German to suggest a version, especially since Mauthner seems to mishandle _Enthusiasmus_: and perhaps other terms.


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## Löwenfrau

> If he doesn't disagree, I do. _Schwärmerisch (~ enthusiastic)is not quite the same as fanatic. I can't imagine that anyone would use the German words schwärmerisch and fanatisch interchangeably. Duden lists fanatisch as synonym of schwärmerisch but I think this requires a very liberal understanding of "synonym", more in the sense of "semantically related"._



I understand. The point is then: did Mauthner or did he not understand it very liberally?

If he agrees with you, then the options would be _enthusiastic_ or _exalted_. What do you think?

Schimmelreiter, if you are still reading this thread, I'd like to know whether you agree with berndf and wandle or you still read _schwärmerisch_ as _fanatic_.

Thank you.


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## Schimmelreiter

DWB explicitly renders _Schwarmgeist _as _fanaticus. 

_That's how Luther denounced the "enthusiasts". Similarly, people who hold sectarian views tend to be denounced as _​fanatics._


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## berndf

Mautner is clear about the way he wants _schwärmerisch_ to be understood: _extatic_. We are talking about _mysticism _here. Whatever hairsplittery we may indulge in about the word and the concept of _ecstasy_. _Mystical*_ _ecstasy_ is a very special state of mind and _fanaticism_, which is about strength of conviction or dedication, may well go together with mystical ecstasy but is not the same thing.
_______________________________
*_Mystik, Mystizismus mag vorläufig einen Seelenzustand bedeuten, in welchem man sich zur geheimnisvollen Vereinigung mit dem All hingezogen fühlt und das Unwißbare zu wissen glaubt über solche Vereinigung._


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## berndf

Schimmelreiter said:


> DWB explicitly renders _Schwarmgeist _as _fanaticus._


If the target language of the translation were classical or medieval Latin than this would be relevant. I don't think it is.


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## Schimmelreiter

I read it as meaning that Mauthner rejects Luther's and Melanchthon's denouncing enthusiasts as _Schwarmgeister/fanatics. _It's not Mauthner's usage but he criticises Luther and Melanchthon for theirs.


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## Löwenfrau

Schimmelreiter said:


> I read it as meaning that Mauthner rejects Luther's and Melanchthon's denouncing enthusiasts as _Schwarmgeister/fanatics. _It's not Mauthner's usage but he criticises Luther and Melanchthon for theirs.



That's exactly what I was going to say: he employs _schwärmerisch_ thinking that this is how Melanchthon and Luther viewed ecstatic and enthusiastic people; he criticizes the way they twist enthusiasm into fanaticism.

EDIT: "they_ twist_ enthusiasm_ into_ fanaticism" - I'm not sure this is grammatically allowed.


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## Schimmelreiter

Löwenfrau said:


> That's exactly what I was going to say: he employs _schwärmerisch_ thinking that this is how Melanchthon and Luther viewed ecstatic and enthusiastic people; he criticizes the way they twist enthusiasm into fanaticism.


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## berndf

Schimmelreiter said:


> I read it as meaning that Mauthner rejects Luther's and Melanchthon's denouncing enthusiasts as _Schwarmgeister/fanatics. _It's not Mauthner's usage but he criticises Luther and Melanchthon for theirs.


Luther and Melanchthon have no regard for _mystical __ecstasy_ (_in-Gott-sein_). For them, as politicians, _faith _is intellectual and practical, not mystical.





berndf said:


> Mautner is *clear* *about the way he wants _schwärmerisch_ to be understood: _extatic_.


______________________
*The bracket (_schwärmerisch_ seither = _ekstatisch_) is part of Mauthner's text.


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## Schimmelreiter

Mauthner regrets the equation of _ecstatic _and _schwärmerisch, _brought about by Luther and Melachchthon.


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## berndf

Schimmelreiter said:


> Mauthner regrets the equation of _ecstatic _and _schwärmerisch, _brought about by Luther and Melachchthon.


So, you agree with me that _ecstatic _= _schwärmerisch_, is the relevant meaning in this sentence about Luther and Melanchthon.


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## Löwenfrau

berndf said:


> So, you agree with me that _ecstatic _= _schwärmerisch_, is the relevant meaning in this sentence about Luther and Melanchthon.



But here again you are not considering that what Mauthner calls _ecstatic_ Luther and Melanchthon call _fanatic_.


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## berndf

Löwenfrau said:


> ...what Mauthner calls _ecstatic_ Luther and Melanchthon call _fanatic_.


Where did you get that from? Certainly not from the text. Maunthner doesn't use the word _fanatisch_ at all.


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## Löwenfrau

berndf said:


> Where did you get that from? Certainly not from the text. Maunthner doesn't use the word _fanatisch_ at all.



That's not what I meant. I meant: what Mauthner calls _ekstatisch_ in a good sense of the word, Luther and Melanchthon call _schwärmerisch_ in a pejorative sense, as they say _schwärmerisch_ meaning _fanatic_ - which doesn't mean that the word is itself a synonym of fanatic: Mauthner does not think so, he only means that L. e M. do).


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## berndf

Again, where did you get "they say schwärmerisch meaning fanatic" from?


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## Schimmelreiter

berndf said:


> Schimmelreiter said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mauthner regrets the equation of _ecstatic _and _schwärmerisch, _brought about by Luther and Melachchthon.
> 
> 
> 
> So, you agree with me that _ecstatic _= _schwärmerisch_, is the relevant meaning in this sentence about Luther and Melanchthon.
Click to expand...

Relevant to whom? To Luther and Melanchthon, _ecstatic_ meant _schwärmerisch_, and that meaning has existed ever since. 

Before Luther and Melanchthon, _ecstatic_ did not mean _schwärmerisch._

What's relevant here is that Mauthner would have much preferred the original, mystical meaning of _ecstatic_ to prevail rather than succumb to the new meaning forced upon the word by the mysticism-haters Luther and Melanchthon:

_SCHWARMGEIST, m. 

geist der schwarm (s. d. 2, a) macht, und der solchen geist besitzt; 

in religiösem sinne, *sectierer: *

das diese wort Christi (das ist mein leib etc.) noch fest stehen, wider die schwarmgeister. *LUTHER* 3, 375a (titel einer streitschrift);

 kurtz hernach muste doct. Luth. nicht allein sich wider der papisten rotte setzen und verteidingen, sondern auch wider viel andere irrige schwarmgeister, welcher etliche, weil sie sich für evangelische lerer und prediger ausgaben, die bauren hin und wider in Deudschland erregten, eine schreckliche aufruhr anzurichten. CRUTZIGER ebenda 1, 55a. 

im allgemeinen sinne:schwarmgeist, crepus STEINBACH 1, 582; 

schwarmgeist, *fanaticus* FRISCH 2, 243a; 

eben jetzt, da alle welt den preuszischen staat verloren gab und selbst die teutonischen schwarmgeister sich gleichgiltig von dem bilde Friedrichs abwendeten. TREITSCHKE d. gesch. 2, 36; 

die christlich-germanischen schwarmgeister. 37; 

der zauberspuk, die geisterseherei, die weissagende verzückung aller der schwarmgeister, welche bald hier bald dort das volk beunruhigten. 92. _


DWB


Bottom line:

_schwärmerisch_, which had started out as a pejorative word, aimed, by Luther, to denounce the mystics and their adherence to the concept of _ecstasy_, i.e.





wandle said:


> an out-of-body experience*


ended up, much to Mauthner's regret, as the accepted meaning of _ec​static_:





Löwenfrau said:


> _schwärmerisch_ *seither* = _ekstatisch_


*http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2890769&page=2


PS
Please note that, besides _fanatic_, another way of rendering _schwärmerisch_ is _sectarian/__sektiererisch_, likewise reflecting the denunciatory tone wherein Luther and Melanchthon spoke of the mystics' concept of _ecstasy_, looking down on all they stood for.


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## berndf

Not relevant to whom, relevant to what: the sentence which is about Luther and Melanchthon's attitude towards mysticism.


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## Schimmelreiter

berndf said:


> Not relevant to whom, relevant to what: the sentence which is about Luther and Melanchthon's attitude towards mysticism.


Our disagreement seems to be due to the fact that I read





Löwenfrau said:


> Schlimm genug für den Protestantismus, daß Luther und Melanchthon, die Politiker, keinen Sinn hatten für den _Enthusiasmus (in-Gott-sein)_, die Exzesse _(excessus =_ _ekstasis_) der Schwarmgeister _(schwärmerisch_ seither = _ekstatisch)_.


to mean

_Schlimm genug für den Protestantismus, dass Luther und Melanchthon, die Politiker, keinen Sinn hatten für den_ Enthusiasmus (in-Gott-sein)_, die Exzesse_ (excessus = ekstasis) _derer, die für sie bloß __Schwarmgeister waren, weshalb_ schwärmerisch _und_ ekstatisch _seither das Gleiche bedeuten, während ich, Mauthner, der alten mystischen Bedeutung von_ ekstatisch _den Vorzug gebe_.


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## Löwenfrau

> _Schlimm genug für den Protestantismus, dass Luther und Melanchthon, die Politiker, keinen Sinn hatten für denEnthusiasmus (in-Gott-sein), die Exzesse (excessus = ekstasis) derer, die für sie bloß Schwarmgeister waren, weshalb schwärmerisch und ekstatisch seither das Gleiche bedeuten, während ich, Mauthner, der alten mystischen Bedeutung von ekstatisch den Vorzug gebe._



That's what my _Sprachgefühl_ tells me too...


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## berndf

That is all fine but still doesn't mean that "fanatic" would be an adequate translation for "schwärmerisch" in this context.


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