# Punctual



## ThomasK

I had not realized it, but *'punctual'* refers to *'point'* (dot ?), _*punctus*_ in Latin, I guess. Does it in your language ? (If not, is it based on another word?) And do you do you have an expression with 'point' and 'time' ?

German _*pünktlich*_ (der Punkt -- der Zeitpunkt)
French *ponctuel* (le point - ???)
Dutch *stipt* (de stip, a fairly common word for 'de punt', as in _tijdstip_, [time-point], a point in time)

Any more ? Thanks !


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## phosphore

These words seem to be related in Serbian as well:

tačan - ponctual, exact
tačka - point, dot, full stop


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## sakvaka

*Finnish*:
_täsmällinen_

The root is "täsmä-", which refers to being very accurate or exact. _Täsmäisku_ is a strategic attack against the most important areas. It causes significant damage in a single hit. _Täsmäsää_ is a brief, accurate weather report of the moment.


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## apmoy70

ThomasK said:


> I had not realized it, but *'punctual'* refers to *'point'* (dot ?), _*punctus*_ in Latin, I guess. Does it in your language ? (If not, is it based on another word?)


Well, in Greek it bears a _slightly_ different connotation:
«Ακριβής, -ής, ές _adj._» (akri'vis _m._, akri'vis _f._, akri'ves _n._)-->lit. _exact, accurate, precise _metaph._ punctual.
_It's a compound formed by the joining together of the feminine noun «ἄκρος» ('akrŏs)-->_the furthest, highest, outermost point +  _Classical verb «Εἴβω» ('eibō)-->_to drop, let fall in drops. _Early spelling: «Ἄκρειβής» (ăkrei'bēs).
«Ακριβής, -ής, ές _adj._» was the one who poured enough water/wine/olive oil until the very edge of the amphora/jar (whatever); according to philologists the spelling shift from «ἀκρειβής» to «ἀκριβής», is a very early sign of iotacization.  


ThomasK said:


> And do you do you have an expression with 'point' and 'time' ?


That would be «στιγμή» (stiɣ'mi, _feminine noun_). A Classical feminine noun «στιγμὴ» (stīg'mē)-->_spot, jab, point_; derives from the verb «στίζω» ('stīzō)-->_to mark, put a punctuation mark, tattoo. _Its association with time is a very early one (already since the time of Simonides of Ceos - 5th c. BCE): «ἐν *στιγμῇ* χρόνου» (at this *point* in time)


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## ThomasK

Well, I am amazed... 

But @ apmoy: punctuality could be one aspect of acribia, could it not? (But that is what you're suggesting, I now realize) By the way, in that respect we say: *verzorgd tot in de puntjes* (taken care of, till [in] the little dots). Thanks for the hint !

But er... iotacization??? Oh yes, turning into iota/i, I suppose?


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## apmoy70

ThomasK said:


> But er... iotacization??? Oh yes, turning into iota/i, I suppose?


Exactly, it's the phenomenon that started roughly in the 4th-3rd c. BCE in the Greek language with the substitution of the sound of the diphthong _epsilon-iota_ «ει» (ei), by the plain iota «ι» (i); later the diphthongs «υι» (ui), «οι» (oi) and the _eta _«η» followed:
-Plato, Cratylus (360 BCE)
«τὸν οὖν ἄρχοντα τῆς δυνάμεως ταύτης θεόν ὠνόμασεν *Ποσειδώνα*, ὡς *ποσίδεσμον* ὄντα»
(Translation: "therefore he called the ruler of this element Poseidon; *Poseidon* is *Posidesmos*, the chain of the feet")


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## rusita preciosa

In Russian punctual (always on time) is *пунктуальный */punktualnyi/, which is an obvious loanword, probably from French.
 
However, "exact" is *точный* /tochnyi/. It has the same root as *точка */tochka/ - point.


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## ThomasK

Now, this is becoming amazing again. I am just wondering about the meaning of the dot/ point now. Will anyone venture upon the cultural-historic meaning of the dot/ point now? 

I guess it - simply - refers to the detail. In our Roman letters the dots on the i (and the j) - and the hyphen in the t - are the smallest elements of the letters, and yet they contribute to clarity. Or is it more complex (as they might not be that important in Greek and Cyrillic)?


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## CaruraLeam

Puntuale!!!!!Italian!


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## ThomasK

Si, grazie ! And do you use 'punto' elsewhere/ in other contexts as well (in a positive sense)?


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## rusita preciosa

ThomasK said:


> Now, this is becoming amazing again. I am just wondering about the meaning of the dot/ point now. Will anyone venture upon the cultural-historic meaning of the dot/ point now?


I looked up the etymology of the Russian *точка *and it seems to be related to words like *тыкать */tykat'/ - to poke/to point/to puncture. 

I wonder if *pointing* (indicating the location of something) or *poking/puncturing* (making a small opening) has more to do with "exactness" than the fact that we need to dot the i's and cross the t's to be clear.


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## ThomasK

These are interesting tracks. I had a quick look at etymonline.org : 



> both ultimately from
> (1) L. _pungere_ "prick, pierce" (see *pungent*). The neut. pp. _punctum_ was used as a noun, meaning *"small hole made by pricking*," subsequently extended to anything that looked like one, hence, "dot, particle," etc., which was its meaning as O.Fr. _point_, borrowed in M.E. by c.1300.
> (2) The fem. pp. of _pungere_ was _puncta_, which was used in M.L. to mean _"sharp tip_," and became O.Fr. _pointe,_ which also passed into English, early 14c.


 
The pointed stick might be used for showing, or no, pointing at things, I guess, not improbable. The link with 'puncture' is also... funny, had not thought of that. The exactness track might be a good one, but i/t issue has to do with exactness as well...


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## merquiades

Yes, it's related in Spanish and kind of similar in English.

A las siete en punto =  Seven o'clock on the dot.

Right at 7, punctually

In French, I can't think of a time expression with point...
Actually "ponctuellement" can strangely enough mean once in a while.


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## ilocas2

Czech

*bod* - point (maybe from "bodat" - to stab, to sting)
*přesný* - exact, punctual

*puntičkářský* - too punctual, negative meaning

*tečka* - dot, full stop


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## ThomasK

What would be your conclusion, ilocas? Are the last two related? But then: is _*pun*_ a preposition ?


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## ThomasK

sakvaka said:


> *Finnish*:
> 
> The root is "täsmä-", which refers to being very accurate or exact.


Is there any link with dots or points as such, do you think, Sakvaka? I would think there is something 'pointed' about the word when I read the explanations...


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## ilocas2

ThomasK said:


> What would be your conclusion, ilocas? Are the last two related? But then: is _*pun*_ a preposition ?



Puntičkářský is probably somewhat deformed loanword from the sort of punctual, pünktlich etc., tečka may be loanword too, they are not related. Pun doesn't mean anything in Czech.


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## ThomasK

So no link. I just wondered because it seemed like a prefix and a stem/baseword (?)...


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## sakvaka

ThomasK said:


> Is there any link with dots or points as such, do you think, Sakvaka? I would think there is something 'pointed' about the word when I read the explanations...


 
I don't think so, and the etymology confirms this. _Kutoa täsmälleen_ has originally meant to weave something srictly according to the pattern. _Täsmä_ is then a part of such pattern.

Point is _piste_, and a point of time is _hetki _(moment). But there are no derivations of these which have something to do with being punctual. _Hetkellinen_ means "brief, momentary, instantaneous".

The word _täsmällinen_ was coined up in the late 19th century.


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## Orlin

phosphore said:


> These words seem to be related in Serbian as well:
> 
> tačan - ponctual, exact
> tačka - point, dot, full stop


 


rusita preciosa said:


> In Russian punctual (always on time) is *пунктуальный */punktualnyi/, which is an obvious loanword, probably from French.
> 
> However, "exact" is *точный* /tochnyi/. It has the same root as *точка */tochka/ - point.


 
Bulgarian has such a relation too: точен/tochen-точка/tochka and uses пунктуален/punktualen as a loanword as well.


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## hui

sakvaka said:


> _Täsmäsää_ is a brief, accurate weather report of the moment.



No, it is a trademarked term for "*very local* weather forecast".


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## bibax

Czech (some additions):

*puntičkářský* (Latin root: punt-, suffixes: -ičkář, -ský) = punctilious, pedantic, (puntičkář = pedant);

*bod* = point; a postverbale from bodu/bůsti (= pungo/pungere, to prick); so bod = punctum;

*tečka* (teč-ka) = dot, full stop; from the verbal root tk-, tyk-, tek- (to touch); the noun tečka is really a loanword/calque from Russian (točka); (btw, tečka meaning full stop is a _touch_ of the pen);

adjectives:
*bodový* = punctual;
*tečný* = tangential;
both used only in geometrical sense !!

In connection with time we use exclusively the adjective *přesný* (adverb *přesně*) with somewhat weird etymology.

Common Slavic presen and Old Czech přesný meant "unfermented, unleavened, azymous" (přesný chléb,  пресный хлеб = azymous bread). Later the meaning changed to "clean, intact, incorrupted, inviolated". And later to "punctual, exact" (only in Czech and Slovak).

When we say _"Budu tam v 7 hodin *přesně*"_, other Slavs understand _"I'll be there at 7 o'clock *azymously*"_. 

So not related to "punctum".


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## Arrius

*On the dot* in English (and presumably _en punto_ in Spanish too) refers literally to the dots around the face of the clock: when the minute hand is on the dot. This is the opinion of the Online Etymological Dictionary.


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## Rallino

In Turkish, we don't use any "points".

Minute = Dakika
Punctual = Dakik


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## Arrius

Rallino said:


> In Turkish, we don't use any "points".
> 
> Minute = Dakika
> Punctual = Dakik


 
I don't know Turkish, but indirectly I think there is a tenuous connection with points or dots here: _dakika_ pretty obviously derives from the Arabic for minute, _daqiiqa_, which is also _a small particle_ and _daqiiq_ means _fine, exact, precise_, and as a noun, _flour_, which consists of finely ground grains (_dots_). After all the English _minute_, pronounced as _my _*newt,* also means _extremely small_.
But actually, for _punctual_, Arabic itself uses *مُرَاعٍ لِلْمَوْعِد*
_muraa3in lilmau3id_, literally, _respectful of the appointment_.


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## ThomasK

Rallino said:


> In Turkish, we don't use any "points".
> 
> Minute = Dakika
> Punctual = Dakik


But your 'punctual' refers to minutes, I gather, doesn't it? --- But I now realize that there might even be a link with dot anything 'through' Arabic. Amazing. 

But then Arabic needs such a lengthy formula? How about: 10 o'clock *sharp* ? BTW: that makes me realize or no, assume, that the main aspect of the point in a cultural-historic perspective might be the sharpness. Could it be the underlying logic of our whole 'dot'/'point' story ??? Any ideas, anyone? _(Rusita and I both suggested possible explanations: see #8 and 11)_

BTW: Hui's addition in #21 might make the Finnish word come closer to Indo-germanic words, I think. 'Very local' could be 'punctual' in some Germanic/ Romanic languages, I think.


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## sakvaka

ThomasK said:


> BTW: Hui's addition in #21 might make the Finnish word come closer to Indo-germanic words, I think. 'Very local' could be 'punctual' in some Germanic/ Romanic languages, I think.



Yes, but you're again looking at it from a non-Finnish perspective.  Local is _paikallinen_ in Finnish, and the root word is clearly _paikka_ - place. I don't think the word _täsmällinen_ gives any kind of detectable (only imaginable) link with point, only accurateness. Hui is right about _Täsmäsää™_, I believe.

But isn't this a contradiction with the Heisenberg's uncertainty principle?  There's no real accurateness for place if speed (based on "accurateness of time") is known. Ok, this is too far-fetched.


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## ThomasK

_[Heisenberg??? Good Lord, some of those Fins are... _

_I love wishful- thinking, maybe too much even. But sometimes it is useful, if there are people around who think about my utopian ideas in some constructive way: thanks !]_

Yes, but I thought of pinpointing when reading about that very local news. But that is not implied, is what you are suggesting, is it?


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## sakvaka

Pinpointing is implied in _täsmäsää_, but not in _täsmällinen_ (punctual), which was what we were talking about.

And to mild all this down: these are naturally _my_ opinions, and I may be wrong. Although that would be quite rare.


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## ThomasK

OK, I skipped from one to the other, assuming (hoping) that could be a link - but I am often wrong in these matters though sometimes at least some aspects are interesting...


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## jazyk

> Yes, it's related in Spanish and kind of similar in English.
> 
> A las siete en punto =  Seven o'clock on the dot.
> 
> Right at 7, punctually


In Portuguese as well: às sete (horas) em ponto.
Punctual =pontual.


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## Lars H

sakvaka said:


> I don't think so, and the etymology confirms this. _Kutoa täsmälleen_ has originally meant to weave something srictly according to the pattern. _Täsmä_ is then a part of such pattern.
> 
> The word _täsmällinen_ was coined up in the late 19th century.



Hej

The Swedish word is "punktlig", and translated to finnish it should be "täsmällinen".


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## Rallino

ThomasK said:


> But your 'punctual' refers to minutes, I gather, doesn't it? --- But I now realize that there might even be a link with dot anything 'through' Arabic. Amazing.
> 
> But then Arabic needs such a lengthy formula? How about: 10 o'clock *sharp* ? BTW: that makes me realize or no, assume, that the main aspect of the point in a cultural-historic perspective might be the sharpness. Could it be the underlying logic of our whole 'dot'/'point' story ??? Any ideas, anyone? _(Rusita and I both suggested possible explanations: see #8 and 11)_



To say: It is 10 o'clock sharp, we say: "Saat tam 10" (The clock is fully 10). There is no reference to "sharpness", or "punctuality".

I guess, we use "dakik" (the root for dakika=minute), just because when you're punctual, we think you go to your appointments without even a minute later.


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## ThomasK

hui said:


> No, it is a trademarked term for "*very local* weather forecast".


Eight years later I am inclined to that local places can be like dots on the map. Just an idea... But maybe #29 counters that theory, not sure, but...


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