# Use of middle finger outside US



## boardslide315

I've heard that the middle finger is not an obscene gesture in many countries, and is not used at all in others. However, considering the growing cultural influence of America on the rest of the world, I am curious as to how well known this gesture has become outside of the United States...

If it is used in your country, is it derogatory? How long has it been in use for?
If it is not, what other negative gestures are used in your culture instead, if any?


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## jaq

_If it is used in your country, is it derogatory?_ 

Yes, it means the same as it does in the US

_How long has it been in use for?_

As long as I can remember (I'm in my late 20's) but I'd say that it's become more popular in recent years due to American influence. I say this because we have our own British *two-finger* salute...

_If it is not, what other negative gestures are used in your culture instead, if any?_

The abovementioned two-finger salute (see here: dervala.net/images/two-fingers.jpeg) which basically means "f*ck off" and is considered an aggressive and offensive gesture.


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## pickypuck

It is used in Spain and it is derogatory. It's been used as long as I can remember.

Other negative gesture is corte de mangas

¡Olé!


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## boardslide315

jaq said:
			
		

> The abovementioned two-finger salute (see here: dervala.net/images/two-fingers.jpeg) which basically means "f*ck off" and is considered an aggressive and offensive gesture.


 Very interesting, since that would almost surely be recognized as the peace sign by an American http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/16/Tadeusz_Mazowiecki1.jpg


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## panjabigator

I have no clue about India, but my father (who grew up there) often points with his middle finger.  I have had to "correct" him countless times.  My friends mom, (Dutch Brazilian from Holombra Brazil) also points with her middle finger.


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## jaq

boardslide315 said:
			
		

> Very interesting, since that would almost surely be recognized as the peace sign by an American


The two finger salute in that pic would also be considered a peace sign here too (or, for some old people, perhaps as a "V" for victory sign, as used by Winston Churchill.)
But if you do the same sign with the palm of the hand facing towards the body (as seen in the pic linked to in my above post) then it means "f*ck off".


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## Chazzwozzer

Yes. That gesture is very degrading here in Turkey. This and that are other pejorative gestures in Turkish Culture. But this only means "Peace!" here, nothing else.


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## jaq

Just as an additional note, in the UK we also use the expression "to give two fingers to someone" (which obviously refers to the gesture).
Here's an article from The Guardian newspaper about Hugo Chávez, entitled "Two fingers to America" guardian.co.uk/venezuela/story/0,12716,1555809,00.html


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## Frank06

Hi,


			
				boardslide315 said:
			
		

> I've heard that the middle finger is not an obscene gesture in many countries, and is not used at all in others. However, considering the growing cultural influence of America on the rest of the world, I am curious as to how well known this gesture has become outside of the United States...
> If it is used in your country, is it derogatory? How long has it been in use for?
> If it is not, what other negative gestures are used in your culture instead, if any?



In Belgium, the middle finger is one of the many possibilities to make an obscene gesture.

In Iran -- and I had to experience that myself -- raising your thumb (the way we use it to indicate it's good, great, or okay) has the same, erm, value as the middle finger.
(luckily, the guy to whom I made the gesture, realised I was a foreigner and started to laugh.)

Groetjes,

Frank


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## GenJen54

> In Iran -- and I had to experience that myself -- raising your thumb (the way we use it to indicate it's good, great, or okay) has the same, erm, value as the middle finger.


I wonder if this is true of other countries in the same geographical area. If that is true, then even our innocent "thumbs-up" smiley,  , could prove offensive.  

That sheds a whole new light on some of those posts out there!


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## jaq

Frank06 said:
			
		

> In Iran -- and I had to experience that myself -- raising your thumb (the way we use it to indicate it's good, great, or okay) has the same, erm, value as the middle finger.
> (luckily, the guy to whom I made the gesture, realised I was a foreigner and started to laugh.)
> 
> Groetjes,
> 
> Frank


That's interesting... I remember a TV advertisment (for a large credit card company) that they showed here a few years ago where there was a guy travelling through South America on his motorbike. The "thumbs up" gesture apparently got him a positive response wherever he went - apart from in Brazil where it's supposed to mean something else (perhaps the same as in Iran)... I wonder why that is?


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## Chazzwozzer

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> I wonder if this is true of other countries in the same geographical area. If that is true, then even our innocent "thumbs-up" smiley,  , could prove offensive.
> 
> That sheds a whole new light on some of those posts out there!


According to this, thumbs-up is an obscene gesture in West Africa, Russia, Australia, Iran, Greece, and Sardinia. So a good movie is never said to be a "thumbs-up" in these countries, I suppose.


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## .   1

Chazzwozzer said:
			
		

> According to this, thumbs-up is an obscene gesture in West Africa, Russia, Australia, Iran, Greece, and Sardinia. So a good movie is never said to be a "thumbs-up" in these countries, I suppose.


 
The thumbs up is used in a few ways down here.
It is the signal for a hitch hiker to flag down a motorist.
It is most commonly used as a sign of obvious approval or a positive reinforcement. I use it probably every second day in this way. The hand is held out with the thumb up and the hand not moving.
It is rarely used as in stick it up your arse but this is when the thumb and hand is jerked upwards rapidly.

To raise the second finger and flip a bird to someone is extremely insulting. To use both hands is doubly insulting. I am 49 and to my knowledge the bird has been in use in Australia since my childhood.

I suspect that it may have originated when U.S. American military were over-paid over-sexed and over-here.

.,,


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## Frank06

Frank06 said:
			
		

> In Iran -- and I had to experience that myself -- raising your thumb (the way we use it to indicate it's good, great, or okay) has the same, erm, value as the middle finger.



Hi,

I forgot to mention that this is probably one of the reasons Iranians count on their hand starting with the pinkie (mostly females) or with the index finger (index, middle, ring, pinkie, thumb = 5) (mostly men, though not exlusively).

F


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## jazyk

> That's interesting... I remember a TV advertisment (for a large credit card company) that they showed here a few years ago where there was a guy travelling through South America on his motorbike. The "thumbs up" gesture apparently got him a positive response wherever he went - apart from in Brazil where it's supposed to mean something else (perhaps the same as in Iran)... I wonder why that is?


Not Brazil, we also have thumbs-up.  On the other hand, I wouldn't recommend doing the ok sign here.


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## Brioche

Thanks to American movies and tv, the up-raised middle finger gesture is well-known in Australia.

When I was a lad,  we used 2 fingers, the index and middle, with an upward thrust, for much the same effect. This gesture is still used.


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## jaq

jazyk said:
			
		

> Not Brazil, we also have thumbs-up. On the other hand, I wouldn't recommend doing the ok sign here.


Come to think of it, it wasn't the thumbs-up sign they used in that ad but the OK sign, yes!
So, what does it mean in Brazil?


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## Victoria32

boardslide315 said:
			
		

> I've heard that the middle finger is not an obscene gesture in many countries, and is not used at all in others. However, considering the growing cultural influence of America on the rest of the world, I am curious as to how well known this gesture has become outside of the United States...
> 
> If it is used in your country, is it derogatory? How long has it been in use for?
> If it is not, what other negative gestures are used in your culture instead, if any?


 
It's definitely used in NZ, and is definitely an obscene gesture... but probably not quite as obscene as in the USA...


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## Victoria32

. said:
			
		

> The thumbs up is used in a few ways down here.
> It is the signal for a hitch hiker to flag down a motorist.
> It is most commonly used as a sign of obvious approval or a positive reinforcement. I use it probably every second day in this way. The hand is held out with the thumb up and the hand not moving.
> It is rarely used as in stick it up your arse but this is when the thumb and hand is jerked upwards rapidly.
> 
> 
> .,,


 
I used to work with people with disabilities, the  gesture is not only used for encouragement of deaf children, but is actually the way deaf people applaud a performer!


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## .   1

Victoria32 said:
			
		

> I used to work with people with disabilities, the  gesture is not only used for encouragement of deaf children, but is actually the way deaf people applaud a performer!


That would be so cool to stand in front of such an audience and see a sea of hands of raised thumbs smiling at me (assuming I had been clever).

Is the thumbs down the equivalent of a boo or is it the clenched fist of Ancient Rome.

.,,


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## Brioche

Victoria32 said:
			
		

> I used to work with people with disabilities, the  gesture is not only used for encouragement of deaf children, but is actually the way deaf people applaud a performer!


 
In Australian Sign Language - Auslan - 
the up-raised thumb = good, the up-raised little finger = bad, and there are various signs built on those concepts.


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## jazyk

> Come to think of it, it wasn't the thumbs-up sign they used in that ad but the OK sign, yes!
> So, what does it mean in Brazil?


The same thing as the middle finger.


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## Sallyb36

jaq said:
			
		

> _If it is used in your country, is it derogatory?_
> 
> Yes, it means the same as it does in the US
> 
> _How long has it been in use for?_
> 
> As long as I can remember (I'm in my late 20's) but I'd say that it's become more popular in recent years due to American influence. I say this because we have our own British *two-finger* salute...
> 
> _If it is not, what other negative gestures are used in your culture instead, if any?_
> 
> The abovementioned two-finger salute (see here: dervala.net/images/two-fingers.jpeg) which basically means "f*ck off" and is considered an aggressive and offensive gesture.



Our two fingered gesture comes from the days when we used to fight with bows and arrows.  I believe that it was in a war against the french when they used to chop off the two first fingers of British prisoners so they couldn't fire any more arrows, so the British developed this display of their first two fingers to show the French that they hadn't as yet caught them!


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## Outsider

boardslide315 said:
			
		

> I've heard that the middle finger is not an obscene gesture in many countries, and is not used at all in others. However, considering the growing cultural influence of America on the rest of the world, I am curious as to how well known this gesture has become outside of the United States...
> 
> If it is used in your country, is it derogatory? How long has it been in use for?


Yes, the gesture is well known, and widely used with the same meaning as in the U.S. I think it goes back to the Romans, though I'm not sure.

We also have this gesture, which is at least as rude.


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## moura

This particular use of the middle finger is also an obscene gesture in Portugal and is frequently seen in traffic, where some pacific Portuguese almost transfigure themselves in beligerant warriors. 

Comparing with this, the "manguito", what we call the "corte de mangas" referred by Pickpuck is really a more pacific gesture. In my country, it was popularized in 19. century by a famous Portuguese multifaced artist, Bordalo Pinheiro, with his Zé Povinho, a caricature of the popular common Portuguese 

There is another obscene, more a provocative, gesture made to a man suggesting his wife was having an extra-conjugal affair, indicating he had a pair of horns: like this (little and index figers pointing, and the other there curled). Curiously I see it is also made specially by young people in rock stars concerts - there I don't know exactly what it means, but surely they are not calling the star that name 

Edit: Ups! Sorry, Out, I put my post without seeing yours (now there are 3 Zé povinhos in this thread, ah-ah-ah)


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## maxiogee

The middle-finger gesture would be understood to be rude here in Ireland having arrived through films, but we tend to use the V-sign.


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## stephyjh

moura said:
			
		

> http://www.citi.pt/cultura/artes_plasticas/caricatura/bordalo_pinheiro/ze_povo.html
> 
> There is another obscene, more a provocative, gesture made to a man suggesting his wife was having an extra-conjugal affair, indicating he had a pair of horns: like this (little and index figers pointing, and the other there curled). Curiously I see it is also made specially by young people in rock stars concerts - there I don't know exactly what it means, but surely they are not calling the star that name



Here that's the "Rock on!" gesture rather than an insult.


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## Chazzwozzer

moura said:
			
		

> There is another obscene, more a provocative, gesture made to a man suggesting his wife was having an extra-conjugal affair, indicating he had a pair of horns: like this (little and index figers pointing, and the other there curled). Curiously I see it is also made specially by young people in rock stars concerts - there I don't know exactly what it means, but surely they are not calling the star that name


Wow. In Turkey, this gesture is a symbol for Turanism. You know, it signifies wolf's ears.  It may have something to do with Tengrism, as well. It's also widely known as the symbolic gesture of Nationalist Movement Party.

In the Netherlands, I heard this gesture implies Satanism. I need a Dutch native to confirm me, though.


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## ireney

I don't know if we have imported the middle finger gesture or not but it is widely understood as an insult. 

However we mostly use it to show that someone is either going to be youknowwhat or is going to youknowwhat. In general the use of the middle finger (others curved or closed) to denote the sexual act is quite wide-spread (there's even a joke)

This is done by using the same finger display but holding our palm side ways and making rapid back and forth movements in the air with it. The other fingers don't need to be closed though, just curved.

For the insult the middle finger stands for we prefer the (probably imported from Italy) gesture in which you
a) hold your right arm in a right angle (forming a "L" shape so to speak) 
b) bring your left palm to sharply 'hit' your right arm just above the angle (elbow)

You can see a picture of a guy doing it in  this link 

There are other insulting gestures of course but that would be off topic


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## Outsider

ireney said:
			
		

> You can see a picture of a guy doing it in  this link


Yes, a popular gesture in this thread.


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## natasha2000

pickypuck said:
			
		

> It is used in Spain and it is derogatory. It's been used as long as I can remember.
> 
> Other negative gesture is corte de mangas
> 
> ¡Olé!


 
Same in Serbia. Both of these.

This in Serbia means: You will have nothing! I'll give you nothing! It is not insulting, or at least depends on the situation.

EDIT: And, yes... three fingers are the symbol of Serbia...


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## Frank06

Hi,


			
				Chazzwozzer said:
			
		

> In the Netherlands, I heard this gesture implies Satanism. I need a Dutch native to confirm me, though.


Indeed 
It can be seen especially at shows by certain types of hard rock bands which link themselves with satanism. I mean the kind of bands the songs of which have more satanic messages when played forwards than when played backwards ;-).

Groetjes,

Frank


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## ireney

Outsider said:
			
		

> Yes, a popular gesture in this thread.




Whoops! that would teach me to read more carefully and open all links.

By the way two of the most insulting gestures in greece are
1.
a) pelvis thusted a bit in front
b) arms parallel to each other start from being in an upward angle  next to your shoulders and then come down so as to 'frame' the scotum

2. Open you palm wide as if showing "five" to someone emphatically. Thust your hand towards the person's face. Watch him/her explode. You can give a "moutza" to yourself too if you feel stupid. There's always the double one (both hands, fingers of the hand at the back showing between the fingers of the front arm) for more emphasis.


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## Victoria32

. said:
			
		

> That would be so cool to stand in front of such an audience and see a sea of hands of raised thumbs smiling at me (assuming I had been clever).
> 
> Is the thumbs down the equivalent of a boo or is it the clenched fist of Ancient Rome.
> 
> .,,



When I worked with intellectually disabled teens, we used the thumbs down as a 'telling off' for the deaf boy when he engaged in what we called (every job has its jargon) 'challenging behaviours'...

As an aside, my graduation from the disability diploma was amazing, with a blind woman singing, a dance group called 'Touch Compass' which included people with Downs syndrome and a woman in a wheelchair, and it was that graduation where I first learned about deaf applause.


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## Victoria32

ireney said:
			
		

> For the insult the middle finger stands for we prefer the (probably imported from Italy) gesture in which you
> a) hold your right arm in a right angle (forming a "L" shape so to speak)
> b) bring your left palm to sharply 'hit' your right arm just above the angle (elbow)



I was amused and astonished when my Italian student did that back in March to indicate his opinion of our local Mayor and the "renovation" (which he saw as uglification) of our city!


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## Brioche

Sallyb36 said:
			
		

> Our two fingered gesture comes from the days when we used to fight with bows and arrows. I believe that it was in a war against the french when they used to chop off the two first fingers of British prisoners so they couldn't fire any more arrows, so the British developed this display of their first two fingers to show the French that they hadn't as yet caught them!


 
I've seen this explanation on the net - wikipedia thinks it is a myth.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_sign


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## Sallyb36

I've heard this since I was a child, don't know why it's thought of as a myth, sounds plausible to me.  It could be a myth, as could the origin of anything that's based in the long distant past.


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## .   1

Brioche said:
			
		

> I've seen this explanation on the net - wikipedia thinks it is a myth.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_sign


I have read of the 'Archers' Insult' in far too many books that I have purchased with hard currency.  Books that have been in print for far too long to be willing to dismiss the theory on the basis of a weblog.

It is possible that the gesture predated the Hundred Years War but this is in no way a hinderence to the adoption of the stated insult to mean, "Yeay, slimeball, but look what I've got (two fingers) and I'm gunna give you a good cloth yard of hard English timber right where it'll do you least good."

.,,


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## elizavazquez

well.. here in mexico is also very insulting the middle finger insult.. we also use the whole hand, showing the palm to the other person and contracting all fingers at the same time.. try to practice and make all fingers touch the palm while contracting..it means "eggs" which is part of the package of the middle finger... figuratively speaking the eggs resemble the ... well... it´s very clear so I won´t go into details...

also using the whole arm... (we mexicans basically curse a lot and make signs at everyone that is doing something annoying hahaha) and while extending the arm, make your upper arm go backwards (from the elbow to hand) and do it as many times to reinforce your message.. it means "go mess up with your mamma!... anything to do with your mother is bad".... and if you do that with your arm very strongly it means that now your very angry and about to mess up with your face...

i´ll think of some other ones... there are lots...


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## Juri

In Italy such gestures are frequent.
_Thumb up_ is not vulgar , and used a lot by hitchers;
to applaud a performer we use both hands; to signify something is good or well done, we make with thumb and forefinger a "O" of OK.
The use of _middle finger_ is common, but obscene, insultig and dangerous, especially in overtaking.

I asked some friends about. They all say the middle finger is coming from US, especially seen in films.Because the original(?) italian gesture with the same meaning is that with
"_the umbrella in the elbow_".


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## Blackleaf

boardslide315 said:
			
		

> I've heard that the middle finger is not an obscene gesture in many countries, and is not used at all in others. However, considering the growing cultural influence of America on the rest of the world, I am curious as to how well known this gesture has become outside of the United States...
> 
> If it is used in your country, is it derogatory? How long has it been in use for?
> If it is not, what other negative gestures are used in your culture instead, if any?


 
Sticking the middle finger up with the fingernail pointing outwards is also rude in Britain.

Also in Britain, it's obscene to stick two fingers up in a V-sign with the nails pointing outwards. In Britain, a V-sign with the nails pointing inwards is a V for Victory (as Churchill used) but do it the other way round with the nails pointing outwards then it is rude and obscene.

Many foreigners have fallen into the trap. Last week, a Dutchman opened a new health-giving bath spa in the city of Bath in South West England (which is famous for its baths that were built by the Romans using the hot mineral water from Britain's only natural thermal spring). At the opening ceremony, he stood on stage and did a V sign to the thousands of people in the crowd, wanting to do a V for Victory. But he did it with the fingernails pointing outwards, so he unintentionally gave the crowd an obscene gesture.


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## susana_coninck

boardslide315 said:
			
		

> I've heard that the middle finger is not an obscene gesture in many countries, and is not used at all in others. However, considering the growing cultural influence of America on the rest of the world, I am curious as to how well known this gesture has become outside of the United States...
> 
> If it is used in your country, is it derogatory? How long has it been in use for?
> If it is not, what other negative gestures are used in your culture instead, if any?


all I can say in Brazil the finger thing works (so watch out ur finger) and also the American "ok" which u make a circle w/ the thumb and index finger means something very bad... it means "take up in the as*... ;-/ so everytime I see someone doing this "ok" thing makes me laugh!


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## mytwolangs

GenJen54 said:


> I wonder if this is true of other countries in the same geographical area. If that is true, then even our innocent "thumbs-up" smiley,  , could prove offensive.
> 
> That sheds a whole new light on some of those posts out there!


 
Post deleted. Reason - Offensive hand gestures. 
One thing we use to call the "middle finger" is the "New York state bird".

So I have little recollection of this - but I have heard that a hand wave is offensive in some countries. It is similar to the goofy hand wave that kids do to show "good bye". 

I guess Miss America was doing this in some other country and people were shocked, it is similar to the Middle finger. Any feedback?


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## swyves

I'd agree that it's a rude gesture in the UK; maybe he was "sticking it to the man", but he certainly did it both ways around. I always thought of the "fingernails in" V as a peace sign and associated it with hippies.


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## .   1

swyves said:


> View attachment 3260
> 
> 
> I'd agree that it's a rude gesture in the UK; maybe he was "sticking it to the man", but he certainly did it both ways around. I always thought of the "fingernails" in V as a peace sign and associated it with hippies.


Maybe Sir Winston did not always make the V victory sign.
Perhaps he was being progressive and letting the press know what he thought of them.

.,,


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