# Anspruch



## kynnjo

A review I read recently of a _Tatort_ episode included ratings in the following categories: 

Humor
*Anspruch*
Action
Spannung
Erotik
I can figure out what all of these are, except for _Anspruch_.  The dictionary definitions don't help.  What would be a good translation to English for _Anspruch_ in this context?


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## Frieder

In this case _Anspruch _is derived from _anspruchsvoll_ (ambitious, sophisticated, demanding). So you'll have to find a term that covers that field. _Quality _perhaps?


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## kynnjo

Frieder said:


> In this case _Anspruch _is derived from _anspruchsvoll_ (ambitious, sophisticated, demanding). So you'll have to find a term that covers that field. _Quality _perhaps?



I realize now, after reading your reply, that my question was somewhat ill-posed.  What I should have asked is "what does _Anspruch mean_ in this context."  You see, I didn't even get the concept.  Now I gather it means something like "production value(s)"?  IOW, how-well-put-together-ness? (I've never seen such a concept as a rating category...  Maybe this reflects a distinctively German take on things.)


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## manfy

In this context, you can understand "Anspruch" as the intellectual capacity needed to watch and enjoy and understand the movie .... from an intellectual perspective.



kynnjo said:


> Maybe this reflects a distinctively German take on things.)


Probably, yes! Looking at what has come out of Hollywood over the past 10 years, there would be little need for this rating category as a criterion.


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## Demiurg

manfy said:


> In this context, you can understand "Anspruch" as the intellectual capacity needed to watch and enjoy and understand the movie .... from an intellectual perspective.



Regarding (German) "intellectual" filmmakers and their work, "Anspruch" is often simply a measure for boredom.


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## bearded

My suggestion: quality exigences.


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## DerFrosch

I feel it comes close to "artistic pretensions". Although I don't know if it's possible to say that any Tatort episode actually has artistic pretensions...

I'm afraid "exigences" doesn't work here, bearded man.


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## manfy

I am a bit of a movie buff and occasionally I skim through reviews and sites, but I don't recall any category or rating that could be called a direct equivalent to "Anspruch".
The idea is incorporated in the age-rating system, because it is assumed that people of a certain age have certain abilities. But being incorporated does not make it the same as "Anspruch".

"Anspruch: hoch" often can be but doesn't have to be boring. A good action movie with multiple intertwined storylines can be mentally demanding, if it is scripted and shot that way.
On the other hand, a hi-tech sci-fi movie that suggests to be demanding could turn out to be a "Anspruch: null"-flick when all the action is geared towards visual stimulation without a shred of storyline or coherent plot.

The movie category "Anspruch" by itself has no meaning and it does not guarantee a good or bad movie. It has to be evaluated in connection with genre, movie style, directing, acting.
So yes, I think "intellectual level" is an accurate description of "Anspruch" in that context. The word "Anspruch" is sufficiently vague in German, so that it doesn't negatively impact the sales of that movie; the same is not true for "intellectual level" though!


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## berndf

DerFrosch said:


> I feel it comes close to "artistic pretensions".


I think that's it. German is probably the only culture what "artistic pretensions" have a positive connotation (well, maybe French as well). _Artistic value_ and _entertainment _are often treated as opposites in German. This attitude is practically impossible to convey in other languages.

I think you can render _Anspruch _as _artistic value, artistic ambition_ and _artistic pretension_. It is somewhere in between.



DerFrosch said:


> Although I don't know if it's possible to say that any Tatort episode actually has artistic pretensions...


Many _Tatort _episodes (actually, _Tatort _is a kind of a franchise label for a group of quite different police series) are rather sinister. I suppose their prime ambition is to ruthlessly portray the abysses of human nature. I guess you have to be Swedish, Norwegian or German to understand this as a sign of artistic value.


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## bearded

DerFrosch said:


> I feel it comes close to "artistic pretensions". Although I don't know if it's possible to say that any Tatort episode actually has artistic pretensions...
> I'm afraid "exigences" doesn't work here, bearded man.


Then perhaps 'quality requirements'...?
I must frankly say that 'artistic pretensions' appears too ambiguous to me. Wessen Anspruch ist es?  Is it the author(s) who 'pretend(s)/maintain(s)' to be artistic, or is it the public/the critics who require(s) an artistic quality? Sort of: subjective or objective pretensions?  Should it be the author(s), then 'ambition' would indeed be a very good translation.


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## berndf

bearded man said:


> I must frankly say that 'artistic pretensions' appears too ambiguous to me.


I take this as final proof that DerForsch's translation is spot on. If the fuzziness really, really annoys you then you are on the right track towards understanding the concept of _Anspruch_.


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## DerFrosch

bearded man said:


> Then perhaps 'quality requirements'...?



Sorry, but "requirements" also seems wrong to me. If a film has a high _Anspruch_, it's because the *director *(and the rest of the film crew) had high ambitions. "Requirements" sounds as if an external party requires a certain quality from the film, like how certain cinemas only show "high-quality" films.



bearded man said:


> I must frankly say that 'artistic pretensions' appears too ambiguous to me.



I must say I fail to see what's so ambiguous about "pretensions". Oxford Dictionaries define it as "a claim or aspiration to a particular quality".



bearded man said:


> Is it the author(s) who 'pretend(s)/maintain(s)' to be artistic, or is it the public/the critics who require(s) an artistic quality?



It's *only *the author. The only relation the verb "require" has to _Anspruch _in this sense is that a film _mit hohem (künstlerischem) Anspruch_ requires more of the viewer (and the critic). The viewers themselves don't require or demand anything.


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## manfy

I think you shouldn't correlate this use of "Anspruch" too closely with the common meaning of 'claim' ("Anspruch auf etwas haben")
As Frieder said, its meaning here is derived from "anspruchsvoll", so "Anspruchsvoll-igkeit" would be a less ambiguous noun, but of course this word doesn't exist!


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## bearded

I of course agree on the definition of 'pretension'.  It is actually 'Anspruch' that appears somewhat ambiguous to me.  Don't you say 'Anspruch auf etwas haben' in German?  See also WRDictionary (Anspruch - among other definitions: _Forderung, Anforderungen..._): hence my suggestion 'requirements', which might well come from critics/public. I regard the interpretation 'pretensions' (by the author) as a one-sided/einseitige translation.

Cross-posted with manfy.
If/when natives think that I'm wrong, I have to surrender...


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## berndf

bearded man said:


> If/when natives think that I'm wrong, I have to surrender...


Yes, I think you have to. I presume it is easy to see how _Anspruch=demandingness/ambitiousness_ and _Anspruch=claim_ are semantically and etymologically related (_to challenge or demand verbally_) but in modern language the two meanings are firmly separated and should best be understood as distinct words.

PS: I think there is a way how you can reconcile the two meaning and keep the notion of two uses of a single concept: Try to understand _Anspruch=demandingness/ambitiousness_ as reflexive, i.e. _ambitiousness_ is a _claim against oneself_. But again, this is only to give a rationale why you use the same word in both meanings. The fact remains that the two meanings are well separated and that it is absolutely clear which of them applies here.


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## bearded

@ berndf
Thanks to you and others above, for explaining that concept so clearly to me. As a matter of fact, in Italian we distinguish  the 2 meanings of Anspruch ('claim' and 'ambitiousness') by using two different words (_pretesa/pretenziosità)._


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## Perseas

Ι agree with bearded man on the ambiguity of "Anspruch" and I admit it is not a word I feel at home with. I believe anyway that Frieder's suggestion in #2 is the appropriate one here. Duden has "Quality" as third meaning with the example "ein Werk mit hohem künstlerischem, wissenschaftlichem Anspruch".
I think in some cases it means "ideal" or "perfection" as the aim in someone's actions.
Now what "quality" is in relation to the series "Tatort", I assume it has to do with its popularity for so many years in Germany and other countries.


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## berndf

Perseas said:


> Now what "quality" is in relation to the series "Tatort", I think it has to do with its popularity for so many years in Germany and other countries.


This is just the standard grid of German TV program reviews. All programs are rated in the following categories


kynnjo said:


> Humor
> 
> *Anspruch*
> 
> Action
> 
> Spannung
> 
> Erotik


The "Anspruch" rating of that episode was 2 on a scale of 0 to 3, i.e. "above average". As Demiurg said, a high "Anspruch" rating can often be understood as "boring".


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## Perseas

berndf said:


> The "Anspruch" rating of that episode was 2 on a scale of 0 to 3, i.e. "above average". As Demiurg said, a high "Anspruch" rating can often be understood as "boring".


OK, thanks. Then I agree with your suggestion "artistic value" (#10) or maybe "artistic level".


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## Kajjo

_Anspruch _is about intellectual demand, about depth and complexity of the storyline, often also about socially critical views. The opposite would be a simple, straight-forward story with nothing at all to think about.

While usually a certain degree of _Anspruch_ is desirable for complexity and depth as well as for stimulation of the brain, I agree that too much of _Anspruch_ usually tends to be boring and less fun, less action, less understandable. A medium value is what I prefer...


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## se16teddy

Perseas said:


> OK, thanks. Then I agree with your suggestion "artistic value" (#10) or maybe "artistic level".


Or perhaps "artistic merit". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artistic_merit
A similar concept is the_ art film_. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_film


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## Kajjo

I agree that artistic value might be part of "Anspruch". However, it does not need to be pure artistic value but also stimulating to think about the topic or socially critical. Thus, I do not like the translation "artistic" here. It is too much focus on a small part of it all.


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## elroy

I wonder if "complexity" or "depth" would be along the right lines?

Or maybe something about the "screenwriting" or the "plot"?

"Plot complexity"?


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## Kajjo

For me it's something along BOTH "depth/complexity" and "intellectual demand". 

Let's take it more literally: "Anspuch" means something like requirement or demand. In this case with regards to brain. What kind of requirements must the user have to understand and digest the material? 

So the question could be, what kind of intellectual demands might a movie pose to the user. Of course, the complexity/depth of the storyline, the required knowledge to understand the topic, the ability to think lateral, to have an educated opinion about certain social, political, scientific content.


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## berndf

Kajjo said:


> I agree that artistic value might be part of "Anspruch". However, it does not need to be pure artistic value but also stimulating to think about the topic or socially critical. Thus, I do not like the translation "artistic" here. It is too much focus on a small part of it all.





Kajjo said:


> For me it's something along BOTH "depth/complexity" and "intellectual demand".
> 
> Let's take it more literally: "Anspuch" means something like requirement or demand. In this case with regards to brain. What kind of requirements must the user have to understand and digest the material?
> 
> So the question could be, what kind of intellectual demands might a movie pose to the user. Of course, the complexity/depth of the storyline, the required knowledge to understand the topic, the ability to think lateral, to have an educated opinion about certain social, political, scientific content.


_Artistic value _is still the appropriate rendition even if it needs explanation. The connotations you described reflect a debate about the nature of art itself and does not transcend art. It is unlikely one will concern oneself very much with the concept of _Anspruch _of a piece of art unless one is also of the opinion that its social and critical relevance is also its true _artistic value_.


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## elroy

I understand the meaning of the German word in this context.  The challenge is coming up with a concise English equivalent.

Unfortunately "demandingness" isn't really a word and even if it were it wouldn't really have the right connotation.  "Demanding" tends to have a negative - or at best neutral - connotation, but not a positive one, which "Anspruch" could have here if that's the kind of movie you're looking for.  Also, "demanding" doesn't really collocate with "movie."  A class or an academic program can be demanding, but we wouldn't really call a movie that. 

"Mentally stimulating" is much better, but again, "stimulatingness" isn't a word. 

I think the screenwriting and the plot are the aspects of a movie where its "Anspruch" would be most evident.  I suggested "plot complexity" because a complex plot is definitely mentally stimulating and would require a lot in the way of intellectual and cognitive abilities and/or familiarity with certain concepts, topics, or issues (depending on the movie).


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## Kajjo

I disagreee with "artistic value", because art can be found in very many aspects. Yes, I agree that intellectual demand might be one aspect of art -- in this sense you are right. However, other aspects of art like music, beauty, dance and so on which might be focus of a artistic valuable movie would not be described as "Anspruch" in German. 

Thus, in one direction it works: demand might be artistic value. However, the other direction does not work: Artistic value ist not always intellectual demand. 

I recommend to render "Anspruch" as "Intellectual demand". This is as close as it gets.


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## DerFrosch

elroy said:


> I suggested "plot complexity" because a complex plot is definitely mentally stimulating and would require a lot in the way of intellectual and cognitive abilities and/or familiarity with certain concepts, topics, or issues (depending on the movie).



While that's true, a complex plot is hardly the defining feature of a film with _Anspruch_. The film may have a straight-forward plot but be demanding in other ways. Also, at the other end of the spectrum you have seemingly plotless films, and they often have quite high Anspruch. After all, the lack of plot is challenging for an audience that's used to a plot.


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## elroy

DerFrosch said:


> The film may have a straight-forward plot but be demanding in other ways.


 Such as? 





> Also, at the other end of the spectrum you have seemingly plotless films, and they often have quite high Anspruch. After all, the lack of plot is challenging for an audience that's used to a plot.


 Are they seemingly plotless or actually plotless?  If it's the former, "plot" could still work, and part of the plot's complexity could be that it's hard to identify.

I guess there are films with no plots, though, such as documentaries. So maybe "screenwriting complexity" is better.


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## DerFrosch

elroy said:


> Such as?



Primarily through dialogue, but also through underlying symbolism, unconventional camerawork, editing and so on. Also, don't forget about the subject, the topic. A film with _Anspruch _may also be a film that forces the viewer to think about important subjects.



elroy said:


> So maybe "screenwriting complexity" is better.



A bit, maybe, but I still feel that it's not only the screenwriter that makes a movie "anspruchsvoll". And it would of course be limited to the film industry, which isn't true for other suggestions in this thread, such as "artistic value".


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## elroy

So maybe just "complexity" then?  Or maybe "intellectual complexity" or "intellectual depth"?


> And it would of course be limited to the film industry


 That's not an issue.  I'm only trying to figure out a good, concise translation in this particular context (movie ratings).


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## Kajjo

You don't like the term "(intellectual) demand", do you? Why?


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## elroy

I don't, because "demand" isn't really used to mean "demandingness."  We can say "That class is demanding" but we wouldn't say "That class will require a lot of time because of its demand."  Or, to put it another way, if we were going to rate a class based on different criteria, we wouldn't use the noun "demand" as a category referring to how demanding the class was.  We might say "rigor."  "Demand" also comes with a potential risk of confusion since it also means "Nachfrage" in an economic sense. 

Also, as I said in an earlier post: 





> [Even if "demandingness" were a word] it wouldn't really have the right connotation. "Demanding" tends to have a negative - or at best neutral - connotation, but not a positive one, which "Anspruch" could have here if that's the kind of movie you're looking for. Also, "demanding" doesn't really collocate with "movie." A class or an academic program can be demanding, but we wouldn't really call a movie that.


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