# Hindi/Urdu: Rejoice, bride unwed!



## souminwé

I'm trying to translate the Greek Orthodox hymn 'Agnē Parthene' (O Pure Virgin) into Hindi-Urdu. It has a clever chorus in pretty much every language it's been translated into from the original Greek (except English, haha) 

Greek: _Chaire, nymphē anympheute _

Old Church Slavonic: _Radujsia__, nieviesto nienieviestnaja_

Arabic: _Afra7, yā 3arūsan lā 3arūsa lahā_

English translation of all three: Rejoice, bride unwed!

Especially in the Greek it's easy to hear the intended echo of "*nymphē*" in "_*anympheute*"._
Translating this into Hindi-Urdu has been hard for two reasons:

1) "Rejoice!" - I don't want to just translate this as a simple *xush ho!* Anyone able to think of something better?
2) *nymphē, nieviesta, 3aruusan*, all mean "bride". In these languages, the word for "wed" and "bride" are derived from each other. I don't think there is any word in Hindi-Urdu meaning "to wed" that is derived from dulhan or dulha, or any other word making reference to a spouse. Any suggestions?
I'm pretty sure the Slavonic word for 'unwed', * nienieviestnaja* (lit. 'unbrided') was coined just for this song, as the modern Russian word is *niemuzhnaja* (lit. 'unmanned'). If I made up a word such as '*andulhaai*' to mean 'unwed', how would you feel hearing it?


So far, the translations I've made, which I'm VERY unsatisfied with are:

*Xush ho, dulhaniya bin dulha!*
*Xush ho, dulhaniya anbyaahi!* (<- I gave up trying to translate the echoing effect with this one)


(Let's keep special vocabulary limited to Urdu, since this is a Christian song and I want it to be 'pan-Hindustani')

Thank you for the help!


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## greatbear

"Dulhaniya anbyaahi" seems to me the only option available here, even if the echo effect is lost.

Regarding "khush ho", I can't find a better imperative, unless you extend your choices farther to words like "Jhoom".


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## souminwé

What about the word *riijhna*? I'm not sure if it's commonly used.

And even then maybe the line_* riijho, dulhaniya anbyaahi*_ sounds kind of odd (to my ears). *Xush ho* just seems so plain when compared to 'rejoice'. Maybe I should just settle : /


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## greatbear

But "riijhnaa" means to be _*seduced *_by someone or something; it seems to me quite far from rejoicing.


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## Qureshpor

souminwé said:


> I'm trying to translate the Greek Orthodox hymn 'Agnē Parthene' (O Pure Virgin) into Hindi-Urdu. It has a clever chorus in pretty much every language it's been translated into from the original Greek (except English, haha)
> 
> Greek: _Chaire, nymphē anympheute _
> 
> Old Church Slavonic: _Radujsia__, nieviesto nienieviestnaja_
> 
> Arabic: _Afra7, yā 3arūsan lā 3arūsa lahā_
> 
> English translation of all three: Rejoice, bride unwed!
> 
> Especially in the Greek it's easy to hear the intended echo of "*nymphē*" in "_*anympheute*"._
> Translating this into Hindi-Urdu has been hard for two reasons:
> 
> 1) "Rejoice!" - I don't want to just translate this as a simple *xush ho!* Anyone able to think of something better?
> 2) *nymphē, nieviesta, 3aruusan*, all mean "bride". In these languages, the word for "wed" and "bride" are derived from each other. I don't think there is any word in Hindi-Urdu meaning "to wed" that is derived from dulhan or dulha, or any other word making reference to a spouse. Any suggestions?
> I'm pretty sure the Slavonic word for 'unwed', *nienieviestnaja* (lit. 'unbrided') was coined just for this song, as the modern Russian word is *niemuzhnaja* (lit. 'unmanned'). If I made up a word such as '*andulhaai*' to mean 'unwed', how would you feel hearing it?
> 
> 
> So far, the translations I've made, which I'm VERY unsatisfied with are:
> 
> *Xush ho, dulhaniya bin dulha!*
> *Xush ho, dulhaniya anbyaahi!* (<- I gave up trying to translate the echoing effect with this one)
> 
> 
> (Let's keep special vocabulary limited to Urdu, since this is a Christian song and I want it to be 'pan-Hindustani')
> 
> Thank you for the help!




Here is my penny's worth.

For, "O Pure Virgin"...

ai paak doshiizah

ai paakiizah doshiizah

ai paak-daaman doshiizah

For, "Rejoice thou unwedded bride!"..

shaadii manaa'o, ai Ghair-shaadii-shudah dulhan!

shaadiyaanah bajaa'o, ai Ghair shaadiishudah dulhan

Khushii manaa'o, ai kuNvaarii kaniyaa!

maNgal aachaar karo, he kuNvaarii kaniyaa!


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## greatbear

This is what starts all those debates, QureshPor! This is simply unacceptable! When the original thread poster says he wants something "pan-Hindustani," why would you want words like "doshiizah," which is completely unheard of and I don't think would be intelligible to even 10% of Indians?


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## Qureshpor

greatbear said:


> This is what starts all those debates, QureshPor! This is simply unacceptable! When the original thread poster says he wants something "pan-Hindustani," why would you want words like "doshiizah," which is completely unheard of and I don't think would be intelligible to even 10% of Indians?



I assure you Greatbear, a debate is the last thing on my mind. The thread is entitled "Hindi/Urdu: Rejoice, bride, unwed!" I have translated the original poster's questions in Urdu (and what I believe is Hindi). The word "doshiizah" is understood by any Urdu speaker who has had basic Urdu education. Besides, the request was as follows.

"(Let's keep special vocabulary limited to *Urdu,* since this is a Christian song and I want it to be 'pan-Hindustani')"


Ghaaratgar-i-tahammul, dilsoz dushman-i-jaaN
parvardah-i-manaazir, doshiizah-i-biyaabaaN

(From Jangal kii shahzaadii by Josh Maleehabadi)

I believe "Maleehabad" is in India. I will settle with 10% of Indians understanding "doshiizah"! It will come to a mighty large figure! A couple of more examples.

doshiizah sar-i-bazm agar naache gii 
gird us ke havas-kaar nazar naache gii
khaa jaaye gii laGhzish nigah-i-paak vahiiN 
jis vaqt vuh lachkaa ke kamar naache gii! 

Munishi Tilok Chand Mahroom

dil ke zulmat-kade meN terii yaad 
aaj aa'ii hai raNg-o-nuur liye 
jaise ik siim-posh doshiizah
maqbare meN jalaa rahii ho diye! 

Naresh Kumar Shad


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## greatbear

And will 10% be "pan-Hindustani"? I assume the original post meant the Urdu that is understood widely by most Indians.


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## BP.

greatbear said:


> This is what starts all those debates, QureshPor! This is simply unacceptable! When the original thread poster says he wants something "pan-Hindustani," why would you want words like "doshiizah," which is completely unheard of and I don't think would be intelligible to even 10% of Indians?



I think things like post 6 begin those debates. Let me explain: his last line, composed of 6 words, introduced me to 4 new ones. In the past we would say "Great, you taught me 4 new words, thank you so much", but since a few weeks/months (I can't tell when it began since I've been infrequent lately) some new people have begun saying "I've never heard of it so this is definitely not part of my language, it must be Urdu or some other foreign vocabulary". Maybe it's their age, but I hope our new members will season quickly. It's OK though, it all helps the cause of learning!


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## BP.

QURESHPOR said:


> ...
> For, "Rejoice thou unwedded bride!"..
> shaadii manaa'o, ai Ghair-shaadii-shudah dulhan!
> ...


_shaadii manaa2oo_ is so much culturally apt than that direct translation _khush hoo jaa2oo_.

How would you like the idea that first came to me: _a2ee 3aruusah ee baakirah_? I know virgin isn't unwed, and I'd like somebody to resolve the choice of words to me.


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## souminwé

Whoa how about we just not debate lol!

- We can't use "*doshiizah*" simply because the established translation for "Holy Virgin Mary" is* muqadsa kuNwari Maryam*.* KuNwari *must be used!

-Sorry I neglected to mention syllable counts. "_*Shaadi manaao*_", "*Gairshaadi-shudah dulhan*" are just too long and won't fit the song when sung.



> How would you like the idea that first came to me: _a2ee 3aruusah ee baakirah_? I know virgin isn't unwed, and I'd like somebody to resolve the choice of words to me



This does sound really good when sung! But the thing is one can be a virgin and a bride at the same time, and the point is to emphasise the status of Mary as Mother and Virgin. 

And it's also too foreign. My original translation. *Dulhaniya anbyaahi *was picked because it's a phrase the layman understands, and on both sides of the border, and I feel gives more to the Hindustani identity of the song.

3aruusa e baakirah is just not what I'd imagine hearing sung in churches!


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## BP.

^I thought kunwaarii is single and baakirah is virgin. We'll use the word that fits won't we?


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## souminwé

greatbear said:


> And will 10% be "pan-Hindustani"? I assume the original post meant the Urdu that is understood widely by most Indians.



Well, because of the precedent set by the original Urdu Bible, one can get pretty heavy on the Urdu in Christian texts. That being said, I did say pan-Hindustani, so I'm trying to keep a bit of a cap on it, but other than that, words like _*doshiizah*_ would be totally acceptable if the usage of *kunWari* wasn't already tradition.


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## souminwé

BelligerentPacifist said:


> ^I thought kunwaarii is single and baakirah is virgin. We'll use the word that fits won't we?



That maybe the case, but kunwaari is the established term for "The Virgin". It's just what's used. The British probably mistranslated it, but even the Urdu wiki-article on Mary refers to her as کنواری


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## Qureshpor

BelligerentPacifist said:


> _shaadii manaa2oo_ is so much culturally apt than that direct translation _khush hoo jaa2oo_.
> 
> How would you like the idea that first came to me: _a2ee 3aruusah ee baakirah_? I know virgin isn't unwed, and I'd like somebody to resolve the choice of words to me.



BP SaaHib, I did contemplate your suggestion, "3aruusah-i-baakirah" but I felt "baakirah" might be too unfamiliar for most Urdu speakers. "3azraa" came to mind too, as well as "batuul" but I decided to go for "doshiizah" for greater familiarity.


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## souminwé

Thank you BP, QURESHPOR and greatbear for the input! I think I will stick with *xush ho, dulhaniya anbyaahi*, but many of the suggestions you guys have made were very useful for the rest of the hymn (particularly _*doshiizah*_, which I think I will use to translate "maiden")

How familiar to Urdu speakers are *3azra'a *and *batuul,* QURESHPOR? Those words are used in the Arabic version (_3adhrāu yā umma al-ilāh; ta7qīqa al-batūlīh), _and I would love for there to be cohesion between the Hindustani and Arabic version


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## Qureshpor

souminwé said:


> Whoa how about we just not debate lol!
> 
> - We can't use "*doshiizah*" simply because the established translation for "Holy Virgin Mary" is* muqadsa kuNwari Maryam*.* KuNwari *must be used!
> 
> Just as a point of accuracy, the word is "muqaddasah" for "Holy".
> 
> And it's also too foreign. My original translation. *Dulhaniya anbyaahi *was picked because it's a phrase the layman understands, and on both sides of the border, and I feel gives more to the Hindustani identity of the song. 3aruusa e baakirah is just not what I'd imagine hearing sung in churches!
> 
> Very interesting! Whilst "muqaddasah" is acceptable, "3aruusah-i-baakirah" is "too foreign" and not quite suitable to be sung in churches!!
> 
> Would "bin-biyaahii" sound better in place of "an-biyaahii"?


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## Qureshpor

souminwé said:


> Well, because of the precedent set by the original Urdu Bible, one can get pretty heavy on the Urdu in Christian texts. That being said, I did say pan-Hindustani, so I'm trying to keep a bit of a cap on it, but other than that, words like _*doshiizah*_ would be totally acceptable if the usage of *kunWari* wasn't already tradition.



Another point of accuracy Souminwe SaaHib. Hindustani might be a term which is generally taken as a mid-way language for Urdu-Hindi but in academia it has always meant "Urdu". Just take Platts grammar book title as an example. " A Grammar of the Urdu or Hindustani Language" originally published in 1874.


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## Qureshpor

souminwé said:


> Thank you BP, QURESHPOR and greatbear for the input! I think I will stick with *xush ho, dulhaniya anbyaahi*, but many of the suggestions you guys have made were very useful for the rest of the hymn (particularly _*doshiizah*_, which I think I will use to translate "maiden")
> 
> For me 'Khush ho" does not have the impact that is inherent in "Rejoice!"
> 
> How familiar to Urdu speakers are *3azra'a *and *batuul,* QURESHPOR? Those words are used in the Arabic version (_3adhrāu yā umma al-ilāh; ta7qīqa al-batūlīh), _and I would love for there to be cohesion between the Hindustani and Arabic version
> 
> "batuul", according to Platts is "A virgin: a pure and chaste woman, who is detached from worldly things and devoted to God (usually applied to the Virgin Mary and to Fatimah, daughter of Mohammad and wife of Ali").
> 
> 3azraa is simply defined as "A virgin: sign of virgo". Both names are common amongst Muslims.


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## Qureshpor

greatbear said:


> And will 10% be "pan-Hindustani"? I assume the original post meant the Urdu that is understood widely by most Indians.



Whatever "pan-Hindustani" may or may not mean, if you type "Ae Dosheeza by Kshitij Tarey" on Youtube, you will hear this word over and over. I would suggest a lot of Indians would have heard this song in which "doshiizah" is part of the refrain.


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## souminwé

Muqaddasah, I think, is quite established (probably because of "muqaddas Bible"), where as 3aruusah and baakirah, I wouldn't say so much.

I really don't know what else to put for xush ho, but you're right, I don't find it very impacting either. Any suggestions? I think with the "rejoice" part, you could get into some very Arabic/Persian phrases without worrying too much about how affected or not they sound.


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## souminwé

K, I've thought of two new candidates!:

- xurram
- hulasna

Would these words fit the meaning?


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## BP.

souminwé said:


> K, I've thought of two new candidates!:
> - xurram
> ...
> Would these words fit the meaning?


Yes _khurram_-خرم- is synonymous to _khush _or _shaad_.

I would also suggest _khujastah_-خجسته- since it is stronger and even evocative of being blessed. I so like that word I named one of my cats that.


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## souminwé

BelligerentPacifist said:


> Yes _khurram_-خرم- is synonymous to _khush _or _shaad_.
> 
> I would also suggest _khujastah_-خجسته- since it is stronger and even evocative of being blessed. I so like that word I named one of my cats that.



:O that word is awesome!! Thank you so much, and that is a very refined name for a cat


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## souminwé

Allow me to be a nuisance one last time !

How's *byaahta anbyaahi *sound?


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## panjabigator

Just to echo Belligerent Pacifist in post #9. Live and let live! If you don't recognize said word as a part of your language, say so but TRY not provoke an argument. 

Carry on!

How about "ānand māno, binbyāhini". I may be taking some liberty with the "ni" suffix, but I wonder if it might work.


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## Todd The Bod

souminwé said:


> I'm trying to translate the Greek Orthodox hymn 'Agnē Parthene' (O Pure Virgin) into Hindi-Urdu. It has a clever chorus in pretty much every language it's been translated into from the original Greek (except English, haha)
> 
> Greek: _Chaire, nymphē anympheute _
> 
> Old Church Slavonic: _Radujsia__, nieviesto nienieviestnaja_
> 
> Arabic: _Afra7, yā 3arūsan lā 3arūsa lahā_
> 
> English translation of all three: Rejoice, bride unwed!
> 
> Especially in the Greek it's easy to hear the intended echo of "*nymphē*" in "_*anympheute*"._
> Translating this into Hindi-Urdu has been hard for two reasons:
> 
> 1) "Rejoice!" - I don't want to just translate this as a simple *xush ho!* Anyone able to think of something better?
> 2) *nymphē, nieviesta, 3aruusan*, all mean "bride". In these languages, the word for "wed" and "bride" are derived from each other. I don't think there is any word in Hindi-Urdu meaning "to wed" that is derived from dulhan or dulha, or any other word making reference to a spouse. Any suggestions?



This is why I study languages.  Translations suck!  lol  This is like trying to get a taste for Greek chicken by eating chicken tikka masala.  I mean translations are great for getting a meaning across, but as far as the flavor of the original; if they don't want to learn the language, they're not gonna get the flavor, lol....


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## Athanasios

souminwé said:


> Muqaddasah, I think, is quite established (probably because of "muqaddas Bible"), where as 3aruusah and baakirah, I wouldn't say so much.
> 
> I really don't know what else to put for xush ho, but you're right, I don't find it very impacting either. Any suggestions? I think with the "rejoice" part, you could get into some very Arabic/Persian phrases without worrying too much about how affected or not they sound.



This phrase, _muqaddas Bible_, is interesting, though it seems odd to me. Why not _Kitab-e-Muqaddas_​? Wouldn't that convey the meaning of the term better?


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## Qureshpor

Athanasios said:


> This phrase, _muqaddas Bible_, is interesting, though it seems odd to me. Why not _Kitab-e-Muqaddas_​? Wouldn't that convey the meaning of the term better?




I don't think so. I believe the reason for keeping the word "Bible" is because this is *the *name associated with the Holy Book. *Bible* implies this particular book. What I am trying to say is that Bible has become a proper noun whereas "kitaab" would be a common noun.


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## Athanasios

QURESHPOR said:


> I don't think so. I believe the reason for keeping the word "Bible" is because this is *the *name associated with the Holy Book. *Bible* implies this particular book. What I am trying to say is that Bible has become a proper noun whereas "kitaab" would be a common noun.



I understand your point. That may very well be true. _Kitab-e-Muqaddas_ just sounds so much nicer to my ears than _Muqaddas Bible_.

That being said, _"__Kitab-e-Muqaddas_" yielded 14,500 Google hits, all or most being about the Holy Bible in Urdu. "_Muqaddas Bible_" only yielded 174 hits, and most seem to be due to _Muqaddas _and _Bible _being beside/near each other in a text, not because they were being used as part of a single phrase. Of course, I searched with Romanised spellings. The results may be different in Nastaliq, but I can't read Nastaliq, so someone else would have to test that.


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## souminwé

I would agree with what QP says and also throw in my two cents:

Kitaab-e-muqaddas is definitely used, and is what I've seen written on many Urdu Bibles. "Muqaddas Bible" may be an artefact of the colonial era. It may be seen as more Christian because of the English/Latin roots of the word "Bible".


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## Qureshpor

Athanasios said:


> I understand your point. That may very well be true. _Kitab-e-Muqaddas_ just sounds so much nicer to my ears than _Muqaddas Bible_.
> 
> That being said, _"__Kitab-e-Muqaddas_" yielded 14,500 Google hits, all or most being about the Holy Bible in Urdu. "_Muqaddas Bible_" only yielded 174 hits, and most seem to be due to _Muqaddas _and _Bible _being beside/near each other in a text, not because they were being used as part of a single phrase. Of course, I searched with Romanised spellings. The results may be different in Nastaliq, but I can't read Nastaliq, so someone else would have to test that.




Yes, I certainly understand your point and "kitaab-i-muqaddis" is fine by me. I typed it in Urdu and it yielded 11,300,000 results, the first page being mainly Farsi. I also found "kitaab-i-muqaddas-i-Injiil", which perhaps is more accurate.

"kitaab-i-muqaddas" on its own can mean "Gita", "Qur'an", "Granth", "Bible" etc because they are all considered "holy" by the followers of these faiths.


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## Athanasios

> "kitaab-i-muqaddas" on its own can mean "Gita", "Qur'an", "Granth", "Bible" etc because they are all considered "holy" by the respective religion followers.



This is true. _Bible _would remove ambiguity. Also, it is analogous to religious borrowings that occur into English too, I suppose. It would be odd if someone told me he just finished reading a chapter of _The Recitation_, or _The Song of God_. Sometimes borrowings have a certain air of "greater authenticity".


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## tonyspeed

There is only one Kitab-e-Muqaddas. All other holy books have their own names. The Bible is not a book but a collection of books that each have proper names. 
Kitab-e-Muqaddas is the proper way (at least in Urdu) to refer to what is known in Europe as the Bible or some variant thereof. The addition of i-injil would refer only to the Injil portion
but as you know the Bible consists of the torah, prophets, zabur, injil and other such books and collections of books.

Quoting Wikipedia...
"The English word Bible is from the Latin biblia, from the same word in Medieval Latin and Late Latin and ultimately from Greek τὰ βιβλία ta biblia "the books""

So at least Holy Book is a bit more descriptive than Bible. Plus, since the Bible predates the Latin translation of it, forcing a Latin derived name on it seems a bit euro-centric in my opinion.
Not to mention the original Christians were Hebrew, Jewish converts of various background , and then Asian. Europeans came a little bit later.

The situation changes in Hindi however as I think Pavitra Baaibal is the standard terminology.


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## eskandar

I'm in agreement with tonyspeed saaHib here. Though I understand that borrowed terms often take on their own meanings in Urdu, کتاب مقدس in Persian, الكتاب المقدس in Arabic, and 'Kitab-ı Mukaddes' in Turkish refer _exclusively_ to the Bible, and not to other holy books. (Though Indonesian has no relation to Urdu the way Persian, Arabic, and Turkish do, it's still noteworthy that in Indonesian the word 'Alkitab' also refers exclusively to the Bible).

Though I have far less experience with Urdu than the rest of you, if I saw کتابِ مقدس in an Urdu text I would never assume it referred to any holy book other than the Bible, especially since the others have their own names (and often their own euphemisms as well, like کلام الله among others for the Qur'an).


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## Qureshpor

Thank you Tony SaaHib. I follow what you and Eskandar SaaHib have said.

It is good to see that the word "kitaab" is being kept alive in the Urdu Bible.


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