# Frau, Fräulein (formal words?)



## MidnightCharm

Hi, everybody.

I was wondering if _Frau_ and _Fräulein_ can only be used as formal terms of address. I think _Frau_ is more common, and therefore, more prone to be used in casual contexts. But what about_ Fräulein_?


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## Frank78

Fräulein is not used anymore in formal contexts. Similar to "Miss" in English.


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## Cliff Barnes

Exception: In restaurants or pubs, if you call the waitress.


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## elroy

Frank78 said:


> Similar to "Miss" in English.


 

"Miss" is used in English, in both formal and informal contexts.


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## Demiurg

elroy said:


> "Miss" is used in English, in both formal and informal contexts.



Here's a nice article on that topic: Mxing it.


> ‘Ms’ was supposed to solve the ‘is that Miss or Mrs?’ problem by replacing both options and becoming simply a female analogue of ‘Mr’. But English-speakers in their collective wisdom constructed a more complicated three-way system: ‘Miss’ for young unmarried women, ‘Mrs’ for married ones, and ‘Ms’ for all the anomalous women left over—older unmarried women, divorced women, lesbians, and of course, those pesky Wimmin’s Libbers who had supposedly come up with ‘Ms’ in the first place (though in fact it was originally proposed in 1901 as a way to avoid the awkwardness of having to address a woman whose marital status you didn’t know).



and regarding "Fräulein":


> The German title equivalent to ‘Miss’, ‘Fräulein’, was removed from government documents in West Germany in 1972, leaving ‘Frau’ as the recommended title for all women.


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## elroy

What is your first quote supposed to prove?


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## whir77

Fraulein is the diminuitive form of Frau; compare miss and missy. Whereas in English we may say miss, it's really the short form of "mistress." English uses "miss, madame, my lady," interchangeably.

Basically, Fraulein = missy.


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## elroy

whir77 said:


> Fraulein is the diminuitive form of Frau; compare miss and missy. Whereas in English we may say miss, it's really the short form of "mistress." English uses "miss, madame, my lady," interchangeably.
> 
> Basically, Fraulein = missy.


 For the benefit of other users, I feel the need to point out that almost every part of this post is inaccurate.


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## Demiurg

elroy said:


> What is your first quote supposed to prove?


That you're right?


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## whir77

elroy said:


> For the benefit of other users, I feel the need to point out that almost every part of this post is inaccurate.


Fraulein is the diminuitive form of Frau. 
Miss is the truncated form of mistress. 
Miss, madame, my lady, and other titles can be used interchangeably. 
Fraulein is thought to be rude when speaking to ladies, Missy is thought to be rude when speaking to ladies. 

I fail to find any inaccuracies.


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## Demiurg

whir77 said:


> Fraulein is thought to be rude when speaking to ladies, ....



Fr*ä*ulein is thought to be dated or inappropriate when speaking to any female above the age of 16.


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## whir77

Demiurg said:


> Fr*ä*ulein is thought to be dated or inappropriate when speaking to any female above the age of 16.


Exactly. My keyboard doesn't allow me to write the "ä."

Wiktionary, Fräulein:
*Usage notes*

_Fräulein_ as a formal address for an unmarried woman is now uncommon and considered disrespectful and sexist by some. _Frau_ is the normal address for all women.
As an informal address for a girl or young woman whose name one does not know, particularly a shop assistant, the word is still used by many older speakers and very few young speakers. (It is nevertheless advisable to avoid it in order to be on the safe side.)


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## elroy

Demiurg said:


> That you're right?


 Oops, I thought you were trying to show the opposite. 


whir77 said:


> Fräulein is the diminutive form of Frau.


 Yes, but only etymologically. 


> Miss is the truncated form of mistress.


 I don't know what the etymology of "miss" is, but either way, "miss" and "mistress" are completely different words with no pragmatic relationship to each other in modern English.


> Miss, madame, my lady, and other titles can be used interchangeably.


 Wrong.


> Fräulein is thought to be rude when speaking to ladies, Missy is thought to be rude when speaking to ladies.


 This depends on the context.


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## whir77

elroy said:


> Oops, I thought you were trying to show the opposite.
> 1.Yes, but only etymologically.
> 
> 2.I don't know what the etymology of "miss" is, but either way, "miss" and "mistress" are completely different words with no pragmatic relationship to each other in modern English.
> 
> 3. Wrong.
> 
> 4.This depends on the context.



1. No, not only etymologically,  it is literally the diminutive of "Frau" in the same manner that "doggy" is the diminutive of "dog."

2. Again, it's not only etymology, it is a literal contraction of "mistress." You can say mistress for miss. 
"Yes mistress, what may do I for you?" "Yes miss, what may I do for you?"

3. Just because you say it's wrong doesn't mean it is. I want you to read this article, especially the part where it says "In the United States, the titles of "Ma'am" or "Madam" are sometimes used instead of "Miss."

4. Again: "_Fräulein_ as a formal address for an unmarried woman is now uncommon and considered disrespectful and sexist by some."


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## elroy

whir77 said:


> it is literally the diminutive of "Frau" in the same manner that "doggy" is the diminutive of "dog."


 You are wrong.  It is _etymologically_ the diminutive of "Frau," but the _semantic and pragmatic _relationship between "Frau" and "Fräulein" is _not_ the same as that between "dog" and "doggy." 





> You can say mistress for miss.
> "Yes mistress, what may do I for you?" "Yes miss, what may I do for you?"


 Again, this is wrong.


> Just because you say it's wrong doesn't mean it is.


 I said it was wrong because it is.  The words you mentioned are not interchangeable.


> "_Fräulein_ as a formal address for an unmarried woman is now uncommon and considered disrespectful and sexist by some."


 I said it depended on the context.


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## berndf

elroy said:


> You are wrong. It is _etymologically_ the diminutive of "Frau," but the _semantic and pragmatic _relationship between "Frau" and "Fräulein" is _not_ the same as that between "dog" and "doggy."


That is correct. Yet he has a point, though poorly stated: The origin as a diminutive is transparent since it uses a productive suffix. This adds to the non-PC-ness of the word as it is belittling and therefore felt as inherently sexist unless applied to a child or adolescent.


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## whir77

elroy said:


> You are wrong.  It is _etymologically_ the diminutive of "Frau," but the _semantic and pragmatic _relationship between "Frau" and "Fräulein" is _not_ the same as that between "dog" and "doggy."  Again, this is wrong.
> I said it was wrong because it is.  The words you mentioned are not interchangeable.
> I said it depended on the context.


You are spouting misinformation.
Fraulein means literally "little lady", and was used as the term Miss in the past. You can claim _semantics and pragmatics,_ but it does not change the fact that it is a diminutive. I said that it's usage nowadays is akin to using missy.

Mistress sounds more elegant than miss, but they can both be used. Mistress is the feminine form of "mister" after all.



elroy said:


> I said it was wrong because it is.  The words you mentioned are not interchangeable.


I gave you the information and proof that it is used interchangeably, yet you still deny it?


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## elroy

whir77 said:


> You are spouting misinformation.


 Oh, the irony.


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## berndf

whir77 said:


> I said that it's usage nowadays is akin to using missy.


No it is not. That is absolutely ridiculous.


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## whir77

berndf said:


> No it is not. That is absolutely ridiculous.


How is it ridiculous?


berndf said:


> This adds to the non-PC-ness of the word as it is belittling and therefore felt as inherently sexist unless applied to a child or adolescent.


You explained the exact idea that I am conveying. Are you telling me that your explanation is equally ridiculous?

The use of "missy" as a title would be considered sexist or rude in the same way that Fräulein nowadays would be considered sexist or rude.


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## MidnightCharm

Wow, I wasn't expecting a fight... Thank you for your replies anyway , I hope we can debate without fighting.


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## berndf

whir77 said:


> How is it ridiculous?
> 
> You explained the exact idea that I am conveying. Are you telling me that your explanation is equally ridiculous?
> 
> Missy would be considered sexist or rude in the same way that Fräulein nowadays would be considered sexist or rude.


There is a very long way from my "The origin as a diminutive is transparent" to your "I said that it's usage nowadays is akin to using missy". It is precisely not the "usage nowadys" but the etymology that is the issue here.

But since you agree to my reformulation of your point of the issue is settled now and everything's good.


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## whir77

berndf said:


> There is a very long way from my "The origin as a diminutive is transparent" to your "I said that it's usage nowadays is akin to using missy". It is precisely not the "usage nowadys" but the etymology that is the issue here.


We are talking about the usage of Fräulein as a title. Contemporary usage of Fräulein can be considered disrespectful because it can be considered "belittling," as whoever may take it that she is being called "little miss."
Missy, or "little miss," also can be considered disrespectful because it can be considered "belittling."

For this reason, I equate the meaning when using Fräulein contemporarily as a title.



whir77 said:


> Basically, Fraulein = missy.


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## whir77

berndf said:


> But since you agree to my reformulation of your point of the issue is settled now and everything's good.


I'd have to, we're talking about the same thing after all!


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## Hutschi

Hi, today Fräulein is dated and I did not hear it anymore except in an ironic way, for example to a young girl. "Fräulein, kommst du nun endlich?"
Fraulein however is not used. I do not know why, maybe it is blocked because of Fräulein.
In historical context "Fräulein" is used.
It became obsolete starting with the 1968 movements during the 1970th. In the GDR it became also obsolete, but a little bit later.

As pure diminutive "Frauchen" is used sometimes (seldom) as "Kosewort" for wife.
"Fräuchen" does not exist, however.


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## Frank78

Hutschi said:


> It became obsolete starting with the 1968 movements during the 1970th. In the GDR it became also obsolete, but a little bit later.



Pardon? "Fräulein" was alive and kicking until 1989. I still remember my first teacher in elementary school 1985-1987. We had to address her "Fräulein XXX" before she then got married.


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## Frieder

[Started school in 1964:] Yes, all of our teachers (feminine) were _Fräulein_, even if they were married (what did _we_ know?). But you could tell they didn't like being called _Fräulein_, and some of them _did _tell us so. So that was the time I conciously stopped calling female fellow citizens _Fräulein_. Education helps.
Upshot: _Fräulein _died during the sixties. And it didn't come back (for good, I hope).


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## Hutschi

Offensichtlich war der konkrete Zeitpunkt des Verschwindens von "Fräulein" regional doch unterschiedlicher, als ich es auf Grund eigener Erfahrungen annahm. Und es hing also auch von sozialen Gegebenheiten ab (Alter, soziale Gruppe.) In den 1980er Jahren sprachen wir uns im Betrieb alle mit Vornahmen an, jedenfalls dort, wo ich war. "Fräulein" tauchte nicht auf.  Das beweist nicht, dass es nicht irgendwo verwendet wurde. In den 1970er Jahren war aber die Zeit, in der wir uns darüber unterhielten, dass Fräulein nicht mehr verwendet werden sollte. (Dresden, mein Alter war ca. 23 ... 25 Jahre.)


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## berndf

Hutschi said:


> In den 1970er Jahren war aber die Zeit, in der wir uns darüber unterhielten, dass Fräulein nicht mehr verwendet werden sollte. (Dresden, mein Alter war ca. 23 ... 25 Jahre.)


Bei uns im Westen auch. Allerdings eher in den frühen 70ern, obwohl Rückzugsgefechte von _Fräulein_-Befürwortern bis in die frühen 80er gedauert haben.


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