# con la cual



## Henrik Larsson

¿Cómo traduciríais la siguiente frase?

Luego escondió el arma *con la cual *me golpeó la cabeza

Tal vez:

Afterwards, He hid the weapon *whereby* he hit my head

??


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## Edwin

Henrik Larsson said:
			
		

> ¿Cómo traduciríais la siguiente frase?
> 
> Luego escondió el arma *con la cual *me golpeó la cabeza
> 
> Tal vez:
> 
> Afterwards, He hid the weapon *whereby* he hit my head
> 
> ??



He hid the weapon that he hit me in the head with.


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## cuchuflete

Henrik Larsson said:
			
		

> ¿Cómo traduciríais la siguiente frase?
> 
> Luego escondió el arma *con la cual *me golpeó la cabeza
> 
> Tal vez:
> 
> Afterwards, He hid the weapon *whereby** with which* he hit my head
> 
> ??



Casi perfecto Henrik.


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## Henrik Larsson

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Casi perfecto Henrik.



No acabo de ver porqué "whereby" no cuaja.


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## mylam

"Whereby" tiene que ver con medios o razones, no con cosas. Es algo antiquado, y no puedo pensar en ejemplos.


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## cuchuflete

Henrik Larsson said:
			
		

> No acabo de ver porqué "whereby" no cuaja.


Mylam tiene razón.  Es arcaico.


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## sergio11

Henrik Larsson said:
			
		

> No acabo de ver porqué "whereby" no cuaja.


 
No cuaja porque "whereby" es un *adverbio *relativo o interrogativo, y lo que tú necesitas es un *pronombre* relativo.


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## Edwin

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Casi perfecto Henrik.



Now really Cuchu. Who's going to say, ''he hid the weapon with which he hit my head" ?    I guess, people who believe that a preposition is not something to end a sentence with.


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## asm

Tengo una duda entre el cual y el que, 
Puede ser "el arma con *la que *me golpeo..."
si no, por que?


			
				cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Casi perfecto Henrik.


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## mjscott

"Luego escondió el arma con la cual me golpeó la cabeza"

Why is it_ el _ arma, y _la _ cual?


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## el alabamiano

mjscott said:
			
		

> "Luego escondió el arma con la cual me golpeó la cabeza"
> 
> Why is it_ el _ arma, y _la _ cual?


Actually, it's la arma, but since the stress is on the first a, it takes el or un in the singular. el arma, las armas -- it's the same as water -- el agua las aguas


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## sergio11

mjscott said:
			
		

> "Luego escondió el arma con la cual me golpeó la cabeza"
> 
> Why is it_ el _arma, y _la _cual?


 "Arma" is feminine; it is "las armas", and it takes a masculine article in the singular because when the word starts with a tonic "a", the final "a" of the article is elided. "Una" becomes "un" and since "la" cannot become "l", it becomes "el". It is the same case as "águila", "agua", "alta" (discharge), "aura", etc. Then it is only natural that it would be "la cual". 




			
				asm said:
			
		

> Tengo una duda entre el cual y el que,
> Puede ser "el arma con *la que *me golpeo..."
> si no, por que?


 Es lo mismo. Que y cual son sinónimos cuando se usan como pronombres relativos.


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## Chaucer

Edwin said:
			
		

> Now really Cuchu. *Who's going to say,* ''he hid the weapon with which he hit my head" ?   *I guess*, people who believe that a preposition is not something to end a sentence with.



*I hope this helps, Edwin:*

Often we tell non-native speakers to read, watch movies, and talk to a variety of people when learning Spanish, and also to look in grammar books. It's a suggestion English natives don't often make to fellow native speakers of English; which is odd since as native speakers, we are, after all, also involved in the process of expanding our own use and knowledge of English.

*Suggestions:*
Read more magazines, different books, involve yourself with different social or professional situations/settings than what you have become accustomed to; it will expand your knowledge and idea of how people speak or write the English language. That should help answer your question and eliminate some of your guessing about the uses of English as a first-language.


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## Misao

Henrik Larsson said:
			
		

> ¿Cómo traduciríais la siguiente frase?
> 
> Luego escondió el arma *con la cual *me golpeó la cabeza
> 
> Tal vez:
> 
> Afterwards, He hid the weapon *whereby* he hit my head
> 
> ??


 

Si el problema va a ser el pronombre relativo, reformula la frase 

He hit my head with a weapon and afterwards hid it

O algo así. De todas formas, ¿se podría cambiar "weapon" por "gun"?


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## RussUS

Chaucer, I think Edwin hooked you big time with his subtle comment.


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## Henrik Larsson

asm said:
			
		

> Tengo una duda entre el cual y el que,
> Puede ser "el arma con *la que *me golpeo..."
> si no, por que?



Sí, se podría decir "con la que", sólo que esa frase la oí tal y como la había escrito.


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## Henrik Larsson

Misao said:
			
		

> Si el problema va a ser el pronombre relativo, reformula la frase
> 
> He hit my head with a weapon and afterwards hid it
> 
> O algo así. De todas formas, ¿se podría cambiar "weapon" por "gun"?



No, porque en ese contexto, el arma con la que agreden al tío, es una especie de porra, entonces imagino que se podría cambiar por club, cudgel, bludgeon etc


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## cuchuflete

Edwin said:
			
		

> Now really Cuchu. Who's going to say, ''he hid the weapon with which he hit my head" ?    I guess, people who believe that a preposition is not something to end a sentence with.



It has nothing to do with rules, real or imagined.  You prefer a different style:

Yours: I guess, people who believe that a preposition is not something to end a sentence with.

Mine: People who don't like to end a sentence with a preposition, I guess. 

Your point is one I don't care to argue with


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## Edwin

Chaucer said:
			
		

> *I hope this helps, Edwin:*
> 
> Often we tell non-native speakers to read, watch movies, and talk to a variety of people when learning Spanish, and also to look in grammar books. It's a suggestion English natives don't often make to fellow native speakers of English; which is odd since as native speakers, we are, after all, also involved in the process of expanding our own use and knowledge of English.
> 
> *Suggestions:*
> Read more magazines, different books, involve yourself with different social or professional situations/settings than what you have become accustomed to; it will expand your knowledge and idea of how people speak or write the English language. That should help answer your question and eliminate some of your guessing about the uses of English as a first-language.



Chaucer, thanks for the advice on how to improve my knowledge of English.  But I'm having a little difficulty with  it. 

I know I shouldn't argue with the author of the Canterbury Tales, but I just don't believe that

  "he hid the weapon with which he hit my head" 

is a sentence that any native speaker of English  is  going to write or say.  Do you?  Don't you think it much more likely that one would say

   "he hid the weapon that he hit me on the head with."


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## cuchuflete

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> It has nothing to do with rules, real or imagined.  You prefer a different style:
> 
> Yours: I guess, people who believe that a preposition is not something to end a sentence with.
> 
> Mine: People who don't like to end a sentence with a preposition, I guess.
> 
> Your point is one I don't care to argue with



saludos,
Cuchu

PD- Some people like to hang out their laundry, others their prepositions, and some just like to hang out.


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## sergio11

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Some people like to hang out their laundry, others their prepositions, and some just like to hang out.


What a great quote! I loved it.

Thank you, Cuchuflete.


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## cubaMania

Edwin said:
			
		

> but I just don't believe that
> "he hid the weapon with which he hit my head"
> is a sentence that any native speaker of English is going to write or say. Do you? Don't you think it much more likely that one would say
> "he hid the weapon that he hit me on the head with."


I am a native speaker of English.  I would automatically say "with which he hit my head."  I hear that type of phrase said both ways--with or without the preposition dangling at the end--and have no quarrel with either style, but what I grew up saying and continue to say is "with which he hit my head."   (Well, actually, I am seldom, if ever, hit upon the head, but you know what I mean.)


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## Edwin

cubaMania said:
			
		

> I am a native speaker of English.  I would automatically say "with which he hit my head."  I hear that type of phrase said both ways--with or without the preposition dangling at the end--and have no quarrel with either style, but what I grew up saying and continue to say is "with which he hit my head."   (Well, actually, I am seldom, if ever, hit upon the head, but you know what I mean.)



Wow. I guess you grew up in more erudite surroundings that I did. Live and learn! That's something with which I cannot argue.   Maybe Chaucer is right, I should get out more.


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## cuchuflete

Edwin said:
			
		

> Wow. I guess you grew up in more erudite surroundings that I did. Live and learn! That's something with which I cannot argue.   Maybe Chaucer is right, I should get out more.



I fully agree with CubaMania.  Yet I think it has nothing to do with erudition.

I learned English from reading, from listening to family, and from playing on ballfields and in the street.  Nothing surprising there, nor unusual.  Perhaps its a regional difference.  

I'm just surprised that you are so incredulous that others may choose a style different than your own. I found your sentence perfectly understanable and in no way objectionable, yet I couldn't imagine constructing it myself. 

saludos,
Cuchu


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## HeatherR

I would agree with you Cuchu, however I wouldn't be adverse to using Edwin's translation.  Maybe it is regional, as I see you are from Maine, right next door to New Brunswick.

HeatherR


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## cuchuflete

HeatherR said:
			
		

> I would agree with you Cuchu, however I wouldn't be adverse to using Edwin's translation. Maybe it is regional, as I see you are from Maine, right next door to New Brunswick.
> 
> HeatherR



Hola Heather,
Bienvenida.  I've said more than once that I see nothing wrong with Edwin's translation.  I prefer a different style.  Must be the good influences from up the road

un saludo,
Cuchu


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## Edwin

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> I found your sentence perfectly understanable and in no way objectionable, yet I couldn't imagine constructing it myself.





			
				Edwin said:
			
		

> To belabor the point, it is interesting that you say, ''I couldn't imagine constructing it myself.''  So it appears that our emotions are symmetrical on the issue.





			
				cuchuflete said:
			
		

> It's got diddly squat to do with emotions for me. We have different writing styles.



Okay, okay! Perhaps I should have said, ''It appears that our imaginations are symmetrical on the issue."  

Still and all--Maine is not so far away that I cannot understand ''diddly squat''.  





...


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## cuchuflete

Edwin said:
			
		

> *(1)* Just reminds me of what Winston Churchill is rumored to have said: "That is the sort of thing up with which I will not put." Is that natural to you. If not how would you say it?
> 
> To belabor the point, it is interesting that you say, ''I couldn't imagine constructing it myself.''  *(2)*So it appears that our emotions are symmetrical on the issue.
> 
> ...



(1) Mr Churchill is said to have made that remark in a witty effort to slam some slave to grammatical "rules".  With that sarcastic intent, I wouldn't change a single letter!

(2) It's got diddly squat to do with emotions for me. We have different writing styles.


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## Edwin

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> (1) Mr Churchill is said to have made that remark in a witty effort to slam some slave to grammatical "rules".  With that sarcastic intent, I wouldn't change a single letter!
> 
> (2) It's got diddly squat to do with emotions for me. We have different writing styles.




Chucu, I screwed up this silly thread somehow. I think in trying to get the quotes straight I ended up editing one of my previous messages when attempting to reply to your last message.  So my reply now appears before your message.


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## cubaMania

We are beating this silly horse to death Edwin, Chuchu and I, but let me add that I too see this particular question as one of style and not of erudition or correctness.  Besides geography, ethnic and national background, academic experience, profession, and myriad other variables which affect our speaking styles, I'd suspect age to be a significant influence in this particular case.  If we took a survey we might find that the older folks are more likely to say *with which he hit my head*.  But let's not (take a survey, that is. )


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## cuchuflete

cubaMania said:
			
		

> We are beating this silly horse to death Edwin, Chuchu and I, but let me add that I too see this particular question as one of style and not of erudition or correctness. Besides geography, ethnic and national background, academic experience, profession, and myriad other variables which affect our speaking styles, I'd suspect age to be a significant influence in this particular case. If we took a survey we might find that the older folks are more likely to say *with which he hit my head*.  But let's not (take a survey, that is. )



Well stated CM.  I suspect I am in the Old Curmudgeon category.  I used to listen to The Lone Ranger on the Emerson radio when I was a kid.  It had a paper wiring diagram on the back.

Ours was the first family in the neighborhood to get a television...a Dumont. Walking and reading books were considered normal.

Recently I moved to Maine, where walking and reading books are considered normal.  

Saludos,
Cuchu


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## Edwin

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Well stated CM.  I suspect I am in the Old Curmudgeon category.  I used to listen to The Lone Ranger on the Emerson radio when I was a kid.  It had a paper wiring diagram on the back.
> 
> Ours was the first family in the neighborhood to get a television...a Dumont. Walking and reading books were considered normal.
> 
> Recently I moved to Maine, where walking and reading books are considered normal.
> 
> Saludos,
> Cuchu



Aah, Cuchu! Maybe that's it.  I'm a young man! (Well, at an age where they say, "What can I do for you, young man?".  Books? I guess I have read a few. But, hey, I do remember listening to The Lone Ranger, The Shadow, The Green Hornet, Let's Pretend, Lum and Abner, Jack Benny,etc, on a Philco.

How I missed that ''with which'' thing, I'll never know.


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## RussUS

..to all of you for as a new guy posting before I kinda knew experience and knowledge level of the posters.

But, having done so, I say the following:

There ARE grammar rules for such things as not ending sentences with prepositions. What people choose to do, through imagination, creativity, or whatever is not to learn or follow them. That doesn't make them go away.

I thought Edwin had to know because anybody with the interest to read and post on a board like this would know. If he truly didn't, then I agree in his, (your words Edwin) you should get out more.

As you all know, for languages such as English without an academy to try to force following of rules, usage eventually changes them. To a degree, the ending of sentences with prepositions could be, I guess effectively a changed rule. 

Anyway, I enjoy the interplay on the forum and appreciate the opportunity to read your thoughts and be entertained and to learn.

R


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## Edwin

RussUS said:
			
		

> There ARE grammar rules for such things as not ending sentences with prepositions. What people choose to do, through imagination, creativity, or whatever is not to learn or follow them. That doesn't make them go away.
> 
> I thought Edwin had to know because anybody with the interest to read and post on a board like this would know. If he truly didn't, then I agree in his, (your words Edwin) you should get out more.



I also said, "Live and learn."  They have gone away! The following quote is from The Chicago Manual of Style 



> Q. Dear Sir or Madam, I’m having a disagreement with a coworker on a particular subject, and as my CMS is at home, I can’t go to it for a ruling. I’m arguing that the prohibition against ending a sentence with a preposition is an invalid injunction—one that often serves to confuse and befuddle the reader by forcing tortured and mangled word placements. She says that the “rule” must be followed. So, is it appropriate to end a sentence with a preposition? Thank you.
> 
> A. That old rule was long ago abandoned by most usage manuals and grammar police. In my own writing, I no longer try to avoid ending with a preposition. That said, when I am editing a manuscript and come across a sentence that clearly has been structured to avoid the ending preposition, I do try to leave it alone. It is possible that the author is elderly or conservative, probably is meticulous, and would be upset by the interference. Only if the result is very awkward do I suggest ending with a preposition.



See also:
Seven Outdated Rules of Grammar
English Prescriptivists


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## RussUS

Edwin said:
			
		

> I also said, "Live and learn." They have gone away!
> 
> You are precisely correct, Edwin. I misspoke. My original point, however, was that you seemed to know of the "rule," and so obviously so that you were joking about it. Then I learned by your words you did not know about it and was amazed that you didn't.
> 
> As others have posted, the "real" lesson we learn here is that people who are knowledgeable about the English language have a sense and feel to it beyond the rules. You identified, correctly, that it is not likely that a person finding themselves in a circumstance of being hit on the head with a gun would use such dated grammar.
> 
> If I may end my bit of beating a dead horse (which I am aware, has entirely left the original "la cual" question) with a bit of dignity, I'd like to leave you with an amusing story from an "elderly, conservative, and meticulous" speaker of English and a joke I hope you'll find amusing:
> 
> A father was nightly reading to his son from a book the son didn't like. On this particular night he brought that book up (don't get me started on bring and take) to the son's upstairs bedroom to read. Upon seeing it the son said "What did you bring the book I didn't want to be read to out of up for?" Five of them, but still understandable.
> 
> Finally. Young eager kid from Kansas gets into Yale. First day on campus sees a preppy looking guy and says: "Excuse me, can you tell me where the library's at?"
> 
> "One doesn't end a sentence with a preposition," answers the prep very snobbily.
> 
> "Oh, okay, can you tell me where the library's at, asshole?"


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## Edwin

RussUS said:
			
		

> As others have posted, the "real" lesson we learn here is that people who are knowledgeable about the English language have a sense and feel to it beyond the rules. You identified, correctly, that it is not likely that a person finding themselves in a circumstance of being hit on the head with a gun would use such dated grammar.



Huuy!  Entonces estas de acuerdo conmigo!  Bueno!    

Yeah, Russ, if you hang around here longer you will notice that in determining whether or not a phrase in any language is "correct'' or not, native speakers go by how it sounds: se dicen, "Eso me suena bien o eso no me suena nada bien."  Es la regla y basta


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## cuchuflete

The ease with which one retreats to well-worn phrases when clobbered by a blunderbuss is akin to the grace with which the miscreant propels the firearm against the cranial shell of the victim.  



> Only if the result is very *awkward* do I suggest ending with a preposition.



My own rule, within or without grammatical constraints, is to avoid whatever sounds awkward.  Edwin seems to follow the identical rule.  

We end up with different outcomes. With what alternate results do we end up??  Is the horse defunct or expired, gone, deceased or departed?  Has the equine passed on to greener pastures, or is the nag no longer with us? 


Just for fun, we might try to translate our sundry offerings back to Spanish.  I have no idea if they would differ.

Saludos,
Cuchu


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