# etymology of German toponym: Harrislee



## Unoverwordinesslogged

Reckon the placename _Harrislee_ seems odd to both Germans (even Low Germans) and Britons.

The _Harris-_ bit is not only odd too - can't be many other places in Germany bearing _-lee_ endings.

Guessing it is cognate to English placename elements: -ley -leigh -lee -lea(?)

Note one or two places like _Tholey_ in Germany, but other than that, Switzerland seems tp bear placenames ending in _-lei_

Anyway, what is the etymology of _Harrislee_ please?


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## mataripis

Any idea what it means?


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## Unoverwordinesslogged

mataripis said:


> Any idea what it means?



Because _Harrislee_ sits in a Low German area (right on the border with Denmark) I make it that the _-lee _is at least is cognate to English: _-lee_. As for the _Harris_, again it looks too straightforwardly a cognate for the English lastname _Harris_, but nevertheless it probably is. Anyway, I don't know what it means - maybe something clearing or waters(?)


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## berndf

The ending _-lee_ is a variant of the Low German _-leve_ = Danish _-lev_. Cf. the Danish name of the township: _Harreslev_. The verbal root is PGrmc _*laibjian_ (_=to leave_), i.e. _something that is left_ meaning the_ bequest_ of a noble or free man. The first part is therefore probably a personal name, the original owner of the land.


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## Unoverwordinesslogged

berndf said:


> The ending _-lee_ is a variant of the Low German _-leve_ = Danish _-lev_. Cf. the Danish name of the township: _Harreslev_. The verbal root is PGrmc _*laibjian_ (_=to leave_), i.e. _something that is left_ meaning the_ bequest_ of a noble or free man. The first part is therefore probably a personal name, the original owner of the land.



Are you sure bernf? - not sure about the Danish levs, but_ Harrislee_ sits faraway from all those other _-lebens_ placenames in Germany. What about _Kasterlee_ in Belgium - it more to do with the _-loo _in _Waterloo_ and English _-ley_ or these -_lebens_? Anyway, did someone once mis-translate Lev for lee?


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## ancalimon

It sounds very similar to Turkic suffix "li" "lı" which is the common suffix used for many place names around Turkic speaking geographies.



> The Containing Condition  "-li -lı -lü -lu"
> *The Suffix -li -lı -lü -lu - originating from, furnished with, place of,*
> This suffix gives the sense of belonging to something or somewhere. It  is used with place names - especially to say where one is from.



Of course it's far fetched to think of a Turkic connection (maybe through the Huns?) but just wanted to share this information.


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## Unoverwordinesslogged

ancalimon said:


> It sounds very similar to Turkic suffix "li" "lı" which is the common suffix used for many place names around Turkic speaking geographies.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course it's far fetched to think of a Turkic connection (maybe through the Huns?) but just wanted to share this information.



In truth, the answer given by bernf seems right, though the look of the name: _Harrislee_ still stands-out (I'm guessing) to most Germans from outside Sleswick.H. Anyway, still wondering why the unique(?) _-lee_ rather than the normal _-leben_. Anyway, If you were wondering, I don't know any Turkic, but _li_ could be more likely akin to something like the French word _lieu_, than to _-lee_. What is interesting aswell, is the Danish overset: _-lev_ could be mistaken for some kind of Slavic toponym. Anyway, think the _-lee_ spelling looks how it does because the pronunciation of Danish_ -lev_ sounds near to that - at least the on Google Translate. As for _Kasterlee_, reckon it's a false-friend of _Harrislee_, and that there, it's akin to _-loo -lee -lea -leigh -ley_, and NOT _-leben/lev._


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## berndf

Unoverwordinesslogged said:


> Are you sure bernf? - not sure about the Danish levs, but_ Harrislee_ sits faraway from all those other _-lebens_ placenames in Germany.


As sure as one can be with these old names. The (more) original Danish name seems clear enough to me. High-German renderings are in my view insignificant as that language played no role in the area until the early modern era. High-German renderings of place names in _-leben_ can have different origins depending on region. The closest place name with a High German rendering ending in _-leben_ (_Wasserleben_) is about 5km NE from the town centre of Harrislee.



Unoverwordinesslogged said:


> What about _Kasterlee_ in Belgium - it more to do with the _-loo _in _Waterloo_ and English _-ley_ or these -_lebens_? Anyway, did someone once mis-translate Lev for lee?


This is a completely different dialect area, Rhine Germanic, not North Sea Germanic; I see no immediate relevance.

.... The only reason why this could possibly matter would be, if the town originated as a Frankish trading post and if the name were originally Frankish. The town's web site very unspecifically relates the town name to the Merovingian era. But without concrete evidence such an explanation would sound rather far fetched to me.


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## Ben Jamin

ancalimon said:


> It sounds very similar to Turkic suffix "li" "lı" which is the common suffix used for many place names around Turkic speaking geographies.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course it's far fetched to think of a Turkic connection (maybe through the Huns?) but just wanted to share this information.


This information seems to be irrelevant for this thread.


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## Unoverwordinesslogged

berndf said:


> As sure as one can be with these old names. The (more) original Danish name seems clear enough to me. High-German renderings are in my view insignificant as that language played no role in the area until the early modern era. High-German renderings of place names in _-leben_ can have different origins depending on region. The closest place name with a High German rendering ending in _-leben_ (_Wasserleben_) is about 5km NE from the town centre of Harrislee.
> 
> This is a completely different dialect area, Rhine Germanic, *not North Sea Germanic*; I see no immediate relevance.
> 
> .... The only reason why this could possibly matter would be, if the town originated as a Frankish trading post and if the name were originally Frankish. The town's web site very unspecifically relates the town name to the Merovingian era. But without concrete evidence such an explanation would sound rather far fetched to me.



Amongst others, _Peterlee_, England is within the abodes of North Sea Germanic, but yet, (I think) the _-leben_ meaning somehow never made into Britain. And neither is _Peterlee _Rhine Germanic - therefore that must leave three sundry roots for _-lee_ toponyms found within 'Germanic abodes'.


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## berndf

Peterlee is not a historical place name. It is a recently constructed town named for a person called Peter Lee.


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## Stoggler

Before suggesting etymological connections, wouldn't some quick research online be worth it? Peterlee's origin is well documented and is on a certain well known online encyclopaedia among plenty of other websites. It's less likely to undermine all of your suggestions!


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## Unoverwordinesslogged

Stoggler said:


> Before suggesting etymological connections, wouldn't some quick research online be worth it? Peterlee's origin is well documented and is on a certain well known online encyclopaedia among plenty of other websites. It's less likely to undermine all of your suggestions!



Yes wouldn't some quick research online be worth it indeed_, _the _-lee_ in _Peterlee_ means just the same as 'historical' _-lee_ endings in other placenames in England - I have a little list somewhere not to hand. So anyway, _Peterlee_ still works as an equation even though it is not an_ historical_ placename has bernf rightly pionted out.


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## berndf

Unoverwordinesslogged said:


> the _-lee_ in _Peterlee_ means just the same as 'historical' _-lee_ in other placenames in England


You must be joking or do you in earnest suggest that English historical place names ending in -lee are all derived from people with the surname "Lee"?


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## Unoverwordinesslogged

berndf said:


> You must be joking or do you in earnest suggest that English historical place names ending in -lee are all derived from people with the surname "Lee"?



No the other way.


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## berndf

Unoverwordinesslogged said:


> No the other way.


I am afraid the etymology of "Peterlee" is too well documented to leave any room for such statements.

English historical place names ending in _-lee, -leigh_ or _-ley_ are usually derived from OE _leah = open field, meadow_. It is akin to German place names ending in_ -loh_, Flemish _-loo_.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=lea&searchmode=none


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## Unoverwordinesslogged

berndf said:


> I am afraid the etymology of "Peterlee" is too well documented to leave any room for such statements.
> 
> English historical place names ending in _-lee, -leigh_ or _-ley_ are usually derived from OE _leah = open field, meadow_. *It is akin to German place names ending in -loh, Flemish -loo.*
> http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=lea&searchmode=none



...and placenames ending in _-lei_


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## berndf

Unoverwordinesslogged said:


> ...and placenames ending in _-lei_


Yes, and there are variants on the continental side as well: -lohe, -loe and -lo.


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## mataripis

I agree that lee is leven or to leave or absent. I remember the word "liban" with meanings absent /except.The first part "harris" is a name of person or a word for people .


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## Unoverwordinesslogged

berndf said:


> Yes, and there are variants on the continental side as well: -lohe, -loe and -lo.



 Just to clear it up for others, _-lei_ is continental and is especially found in Switzerland.


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## Unoverwordinesslogged

mataripis said:


> I agree that lee is leven or to leave or absent. I remember the word "liban" with meanings absent /except.*The first part "harris" is a name of person or a word for people* .



...or maybe the unexplained unique(?) _-lee_ spelling (amongst a sea of _-leben_ and _-lev_) suggests the etymology is wrong, and therefore the first bit: _harris_ is the name for hares...

Bentilee
Bowlee
Brightholmlee
Crosslee
Dodlee
Fairlee
Fernilee
*Hareleeshill*
Langlee
Roughlee
Summerlee
Woodhouselee


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## Unoverwordinesslogged

Why does the toponym: _Harrislee_ bear the unique spelling _-lee_ rather than _-leben,_ is it from British/Frisian traders, British Heligoland and all that? Reckon the true ertmology of _Harrislee_ is nowt to do with _-leben/leaving._ Sorry.


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## Unoverwordinesslogged

Hare+lees+hill   

Har+ris+lee   (Hare+hris+lee)

crest (n.) early 14c., from Old French creste "tuft, comb" (Modern French crête), from Latin crista "tuft, plume," perhaps related to word for "hair" (such as crinis), but it also was used for crest of a cock or a helmet. *Replaced Old English hris.*


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## berndf

Unoverwordinesslogged said:


> Why does the toponym: _Harrislee_ bear the unique spelling _-lee_ rather than _-leben,_ is it from British/Frisian traders, British Heligoland and all that? Reckon the true ertmology of _Harrislee_ is nowt to do with _-leben/leaving._ Sorry.


Or a mere phonetic respelling of the, presumably more original, Danish name. If I heard _Harreslev _pronounced in Danish I might, with my German ear, also write down _Harrislee_.

If you want to establish an alternative etymology, you have to produce evidence that _Harrislee_ is indeed an original Frisian or Low German name and not a mere transcription of the Danish name which is very typical for the region and not at all unique.


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## Unoverwordinesslogged

berndf said:


> Or a mere phonetic respelling of the, presumably more original, Danish name. *If I heard Harreslev pronounced in Danish I might, with my German ear, also write down Harrislee.
> *
> If you want to establish an alternative etymology, you have to produce evidence that _Harrislee_ is indeed an original Frisian or Low German name and not a mere transcription of the Danish name which is very typical for the region and not at all unique.



Yes this was brought up in _post 7_, but why is neighbouring _Wassersleben_: _Wassers*leben*_ and not _Wassers*lee*_? Wonder what made _Harrislee_ the only toponym in all of Germany to bear an _-lee_ endfast?


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## berndf

Unoverwordinesslogged said:


> Yes this was brought up in _post 7_, but why is neighbouring _Wassersleben_: _Wassers*leben*_ and not _Wassers*lee*_? Wonder what made _Harrislee_ the only toponym in all of Germany to bear an _-lee_ endfast?


It is indeed puzzling. You have to ask people who really know, dig up old documents (the earliest known attestation is apparently from 1352 in _Steuerregister des Schleswiger Domkapitels, Registrum Capitulis Slesvicensis_). Speculations don't help and I won't engage in any.


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## Unoverwordinesslogged

Just getting the lie/lay/ley of the land:

From southwest to northwest: _Westerlee - Heiligerlee - Leeshaus - Leybucht - Hiligenley - Harrislee..._

Aren't _-lee (clearing)_ and _-leben_ _(leaving/left/inherrit)_ kind of the same things, in that, woodland cleared, leaves gone, light in, the _leaving/-leben_ being cleared/open space, aka a _-lee_. And _ley lines_ and _migration routes_: http://www.geo.org/dowse1.htm, http://http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2498599

_leave, beleave, leaf, light, lea 

lea (n.)__ Old English leah "open field, meadow, piece of untilled ground," earlier læch, recorded in place names, from Proto-Germanic *laukhaz (cognates: Old High German loh "cluster of bushes," and probably also Flemish -loo, which forms the second element in Waterloo), from PIE *louquo- (cognates: Sanskrit lokah *"open space,"* Latin lucus "grove," Lithuanian laukas "open field"), perhaps from or related to *leuk- "to shine, be bright" (see light (n.))._


leave (v.) Old English læfan "to let remain; remain; have left; bequeath," from Proto-Germanic *laibijan (cognates: Old Frisian leva "to leave," Old Saxon farlebid "left over"), causative of *liban "remain," (source of Old English belifan, German bleiben, Gothic bileiban "to remain"), from root *laf- "remnant, what remains," from PIE *leip- "to stick, adhere;" also "fat." _

The Germanic root has only the sense "remain, continue," which also is in Greek lipares  "persevering, importunate." But this usually is regarded as a  development from the primary PIE sense of "adhere, be sticky" (compare  Lithuanian lipti, Old Church Slavonic lipet "to adhere," Greek lipos "grease," Sanskrit rip-/lip- "to smear, adhere to."  Seemingly contradictory meaning of "depart" (early 13c.) comes from notion of "to leave behind" (as in to leave the earth "to die;" to leave the field "retreat").
_

In other words A _lev or leben_ must of looked like a _lee_ or_ ley_ or _lea_. And _Harrislee_ is the start of the newer meaning(?)


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## Unoverwordinesslogged

Even if _Harrislee_ is nowt but an odd spelling of _-leben/-lev_, this rather indepth link (which I haven't read) still seems it might still be relevant ...

http://www.academia.edu/3528216/Leah_names_in_the_Anglo-Saxon_charters_of_Wiltshire


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## ger4

> #25 Yes this was brought up in _post 7, but why is neighbouring Wassersleben: Wassers*leben* and not Wassers*lee*? Wonder what made Harrislee the only toponym in all of Germany to bear an -lee endfast?_


According to this Wikipedia article, the name _Wassersleben_ is derived from a proper name, _Joachim Wasserschlebe_. The Danish name is _Sosti_. - Anyway, it is still puzzling why Danish _Harreslev_ has become _Harrislee_ while the German version of _Haderslev_ (some kilometres further north) is _Hadersleben... _


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## ger4

In the local variety of Danish, _Sønderjysk_, the name _Harreslev/Harrislee_ is pronounced without the final -v (see this list). That might explain the German spelling (another example is _Frøslev > Fröslee_). 

Most other local Danish place names ending in Standard Danish _-lev_  have German versions ending in either _-leben_ (_Alslev > Alsleben, Haderslev > Hadersleben_ etc) or _-leff_ (_Birkelev > Birkeleff, Emmerlev > Emmerleff_). - This one seems to be quite unique, though: _Okslev > Owschlag_.


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## Unoverwordinesslogged

Holger2014 said:


> In the local variety of Danish, _Sønderjysk_, *the name Harreslev/Harrislee is pronounced without the final -v* (see this list). That might explain the German spelling (another example is _Frøslev > Fröslee_).
> 
> Most other local Danish place names ending in Standard Danish _-lev_  have German versions ending in either _-leben_ (_Alslev > Alsleben, Haderslev > Hadersleben_ etc) or _-leff_ (_Birkelev > Birkeleff, Emmerlev > Emmerleff_). - This one seems to be quite unique, though: _Okslev > Owschlag_.



That's what I had thought when playing it through Google translate audio - that the _-lev_ came out as an _-lee_like sound. Maybe _Harrislee_ and _Fröslee_ betoken (whats left) of an native (old/southern(?)) _Jutlandic_ and _Low German_ thing going on, whilst _-lev_ and _-leben_ betoken the invasive 'island Danish' and High German oversets(?) 

Good digging re the invasive(?) etymology of_ Wassersleben_ - maybe some kind of political thing by the Prussians(?)


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