# cómo se dice - reflexive/transitive



## Lancel0t

Guys, I need some help regarding the use of the pronoun se in this phrase. Why is it "se" is use rather than "le"? Is there a specific rule when to use the se when referring to "you"?

Thanks in advance.


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## Artrella

Lancel0t said:
			
		

> Guys, I need some help regarding the use of the pronoun se in this phrase. Why is it "se" is use rather than "le"? Is there a specific rule when to use the se when referring to "you"?
> 
> Thanks in advance.




Cómo se dice >>> "se" is used here because it is the "impersonal" pronoun, if you used "le" you would be refering to a person, in this case.
If you want to make this sentence "personal" you have to say "Cómo dices XXX?" or "Cómo dice XXX usted?".  The same happens in English, you don't have the "Spanish impersonal construction"... so you need to say "How do *you * say XXX in Spanish?"

Now you use "se" referring to "you" when you are addressing to the person in a formal way.  Otherwise you use "te".
Examples:

"Se lo regalo a usted"  ("usted" formal for "you)
"Te lo reaglo a tí"  ("tú" informal for "you")


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## Rayines

Una cosita más: es el "se" que corresponde a la voz pasiva:
"Es dicho"= "se dice", y así con todos los verbos en voz pasiva. (Por lo tanto: "¿Cómo se dice?" = "¿Cómo es dicho?" (Pero esta última no se usa)
"Es leído"= "se lee"


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## Edwin

Artrella said:
			
		

> Cómo se dice >>> "se" is used here because it is the "impersonal" pronoun, if you used "le" you would be refering to a person, in this case.
> If you want to make this sentence "personal" you have to say "Cómo dices XXX?" or "Cómo dice XXX usted?".  The same happens in English, you don't have the "Spanish impersonal construction"... so you need to say "How do *you * say XXX in Spanish?"



But we do have the impersonal pronoun *one*.  And I seem to recall having been taught that ''Cómo se dice XXX" is equivalent to "How does one say XXX".  Or can't you also translate this as ''How is XXX said" (English passive voice.)

By the way, how does one know if the use of se is as an impersonal pronoun or as the equivalent of the English passive voice? (Or does it really make no difference?)


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## Edwin

Rayines said:
			
		

> Una cosita más: es el "se" que corresponde a la voz pasiva:
> "Es dicho"= "se dice", y así con todos los verbos en voz pasiva. (Por lo tanto: "¿Cómo se dice?" = "¿Cómo es dicho?" (Pero esta última no se usa)
> "Es leído"= "se lee"



Esto me recuerda alguna duda. Son correctas estos?

1. se vende autos aqui = one sells cars here


2. se venden autos aqui = cars are sold here


3. se vende un auto = a car is sold?  one sells a car?  car for sale?


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## Rayines

> But we do have the impersonal pronoun *one*. And I seem to recall having been taught that ''Cómo se dice XXX" is equivalent to "How does one say XXX". Or can't you also translate this as ''How is XXX said" (English passive voice.)


*Yes, both are right, Edwin. *

*With regard to this:*


> Esto me recuerda alguna duda. Son correctas estos?
> 
> 1. se vende autos aqui = one sells cars here
> 
> 2. se venden autos aqui = cars are sold here *(for the former too)*
> 
> 3. se vende un auto = a car is sold? one sells a car? car for sale?


*Lancelot: I hope you can understand this way (in English) too!*

*Maybe there're other opinions too.*


> By the way, how does one know if the use of se is as an impersonal pronoun or as the equivalent of the English passive voice? (Or does it really make no difference?)


*Step by step, Edwin ! . It's not a simple subject.But I suggest you to write some examples if you have doubts, and then we see if we can explain it better!*


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## Artrella

Edwin said:
			
		

> But we do have the impersonal pronoun *one*.  And I seem to recall having been taught that ''Cómo se dice XXX" is equivalent to "How does one say XXX".  Or can't you also translate this as ''How is XXX said" (English passive voice.)



But are you sure that "one" does not refer to a person?  This is about a person... whereas in Spanish that "se" refers to the word which you are asking about how it is said... And  without having the need of using passive voice in  Spanish, we can have an impersonal way of saying that...not in English active voice....
Well, at least this is what I understand as "impersonal"... 

What do you think?


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## Rayines

Volviendo a la pregunta de Edwin: Puedes diferenciar el "se" de la voz pasiva del "se" cuando es objeto directo porque, en éste último caso, justamente no lo puedes pasar a la voz pasiva. "Le dieron el libro" >>>> "Se lo dieron" = "le dieron el libro a él"
Voz pasiva: "El libro le fue dado". ("Se" reemplaza a "a él", y no al libro, por lo tanto no es el pronombre para la voz pasiva)


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## Rayines

> But are you sure that "one" does not refer to a person? This is about a person... whereas in Spanish that "se" refers to the word which you are asking about how it is said... And without having the need of using passive voice in Spanish, we can have an impersonal way of saying that...not in English active voice....
> Well, at least this is what I understand as "impersonal"...
> 
> What do you think?


*Acabo de leer en una larga página las diferencias entre las oraciones pasivas con "se" e impersonales con "se", acerca de las cuales parece que ni los mismos lingüistas se ponen de acuerdo, porque parecen ser muy sutiles. Así que no agrego nada más, para no confundir: sólo esto, porque yo no había tenido en cuenta las impersonales cuando expliqué lo anterior.  *


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## mjscott

I learned that "¿Cómo se dice?" is "How does one say?"....

Miss Manners, a columnist on proper social etiquette uses _how does one_ rather than _how do you_ in many of her responses:

http://women.msn.com/mannersindex.armx

One will surely find examples of her responses if one clicks on a link at the above website. I was taught in my Spanish class that _one_ is the impersonal pronoun for when one uses the reflexive verb in one's Spanish class.


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## Edwin

Artrella said:
			
		

> But are you sure that "one" does not refer to a person?  This is about a person... whereas in Spanish that "se" refers to the word which you are asking about how it is said... And  without having the need of using passive voice in  Spanish, we can have an impersonal way of saying that...not in English active voice....
> Well, at least this is what I understand as "impersonal"...
> 
> What do you think?



It is very interesting that you say that the ''se'' in "¿Cómo se dice X?" refers to X. mjscott and, I suspect, many other students of Spanish were taught that it translates  "How does one say X?"

There are two things here: one is that in English ''one'' is indeed called  an impersonal pronoun.  Sometimes "you" and "they" are used in a similar way.  See for example the following classification of pronouns in English:



> Pronouns.* These are basically placeholders for nouns in sentences.* They function grammatically just like nouns, but the things to which they refer are context-dependent.* They come in several flavors:
> *********** Personal Pronouns:* I, we (1st person), you (2nd person), he, she, it, they (3rd person).
> *********** Demonstrative Pronouns:* this, that, these, those.* (These words can also be used as adjectives.)
> *********** Relative Pronouns:* who, which, that, in phrases such as “the man who won” and “the book that I read.”
> *********** Interrogative Pronouns:* who, which, what used as question words, as in “Who is she?” and “What do you want?”
> *********** There’s also the impersonal pronoun one, as in “One should get lots of sleep.”


from http://courses.washington.edu/hindi31x/aut/b/EnglishGrammar.html

The other thing which I'm more interested in is the meaning of ''se dice'', ''se habla'', ''se vende'', etc., in Spanish.

Rayines said that both the following are correct.

1. se vende autos aqui = one sells cars here 

2. se venden autos aqui = cars are sold here

Perhaps Rayines missed the plural ''autos'' and ''vende(n)" ?  Are both correct and equivalent to:

 autos son vendido aqui

How about:

 Uno vende autos aqui.


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## Artrella

Edwin!! Your post is really interesting but since it deals with many aspects ,  I will give my opinion in chunks...



> It is very interesting that you say that the ''se'' in "¿Cómo se dice X?" refers to X. mjscott and, I suspect, many other students of Spanish were taught that it translates "How does one say X?"




In connection to this, I think that you can translate "How does one say X" into "Cómo dice uno X"?

_¿Cómo dice uno/a "correr" en polaco? _  >> although this is not common, and sounds strange, I consider it grammatically correct.

The examples you wrote with "one" you can say them in Spanish using "uno/una" and also with "se", which is why I say you don't have it in English.

One can say X.... >>>>>  Uno puede decir X .... Se puede decir X (see? you have two ways of saying the same thing, but I consider that "se" is more "impersonal" let's say, than "uno/a")




> Rayines said that both the following are correct.
> 
> 1. se vende autos aqui = one sells cars here
> 
> 2. se venden autos aqui = cars are sold here
> 
> Perhaps Rayines missed the plural ''autos'' and ''vende(n)" ? Are both correct and equivalent to:
> 
> autos son vendido aqui
> 
> How about:
> 
> Uno vende autos aqui.




I'm not sure about "se vende autos aquí" it sounds incorrect to me, BUT I cannot say it is incorrect.  I have to do some research, because honestly, I don't know that. I would have said "Alguien vende autos aquí" but "se vende autos aquí" sounds odd to may ear.  I think that there is no agreement between the subject (DO in active >> "autos") and the verb "vende" (think that this sentence comes from the active "Alguien/Uno/Juan vende autos aquí" but when you turn it into the passive the object "autos" comes to the place of the subject, so you need to make it plural.... the sentence would be>> Autos son vendidos aquí (por Juan/uno/Alguien >> agent, doer of the action)
The second sentence is perfect for me.


*PASSIVE CONSTRUCTIONS USING SE*

• Spanish avoids the passive with ser when the agent of the action is unknown or irrelevant.  The most common way of expressing a passive idea in Spanish –that something happens, but without expressing who in particular does it–, is by using se with a verb in the third person: 
        Ese modelo ya no se usa. That model is not used (in use) anymore. 
• When the subject (modelo in the above example) is plural, the verb must be plural: 
    Esos modelos ya no se usan. Those models are not used anymore. 
 *Se venden camisas en esta tienda. Shirts are sold in this store. * 


Check this last example:::  Shirts are sold in this store by someone/by one

*See the whole text in point 41 b* 


Uno vende autos aquí  >>> Autos son vendidos aquí(por uno) = Se venden autos aquí

These examples with "Autos son vendidos aquí" are not used in Spanish, at least you can say "Los autos son vendidos aquí"... but since we don't have "los" in the original sentence we say "Se venden autos aquí"... I wrote those examples just to show the alternation.

Well, this is ONLY MY ANALYSIS of this.  I may be *perfectly wrong*.


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## mariposa

It has been a very long time since my Spanish classes but I recall the teacher, a native Spanish speaker, saying the se in "como se dice" and other uses would be "itself" so that a literal translation would be "how does it say itself " about the word being asked about.

He used an example that sticks with me yet, when he jokingly said Spanish speakers "accept no blame" for accidents, but will say "the glass broke itself".  I can't remember the words for the glass or broke.  Just the example.  

Is this in line with your studies?


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## Artrella

mariposa said:
			
		

> It has been a very long time since my Spanish classes but I recall the teacher, a native Spanish speaker, saying the se in "como se dice" and other uses would be "itself" so that a literal translation would be "how does it say itself " about the word being asked about.
> 
> He used an example that sticks with me yet, when he jokingly said Spanish speakers "accept no blame" for accidents, but will say "the glass broke itself".  I can't remember the words for the glass or broke.  Just the example.
> 
> Is this in line with your studies?




Yes, Mariposa!! This is what I said... I think the same way as your teacher...

BTW...welcome to WR!!


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## elroy

mariposa said:
			
		

> It has been a very long time since my Spanish classes but I recall the teacher, a native Spanish speaker, saying the se in "como se dice" and other uses would be "itself" so that a literal translation would be "how does it say itself " about the word being asked about.
> 
> He used an example that sticks with me yet, when he jokingly said Spanish speakers "accept no blame" for accidents, but will say "the glass broke itself".  I can't remember the words for the glass or broke.  Just the example.
> 
> Is this in line with your studies?



That would be "Se rompió el vidrio."  And you are absolutely right.   

That "se," however, is referred to as the "accidental se," since it has to do with accidents.


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## Artrella

elroy said:
			
		

> That "se," however, is referred to as the "accidental se," since it has to do with accidents.




Wow!! I didn't know we have an "accidental se"... how many things they teach about Spanish to the foreigners... we are not taught that!!


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## elroy

Artrella said:
			
		

> Wow!! I didn't know we have an "accidental se"... how many things they teach about Spanish to the foreigners... we are not taught that!!



Haha   ...yeah, you use the "accidental se" when something happens to something that belongs to you, but you don't want to "take the blame," as somebody said in an earlier post.

Perhaps a few examples might help make it clearer:

*Se me rompió el lápiz.*
(In English we would say "My pencil broke" or "I broke my pencil."  However, in Spanish you don't say "Mi lápiz rompió" or "Rompí mi lápiz."  You use the "accidental se"!  )

*Se me olvidó tu nombre.*
(not "Olvidé tu nombre")

*Se me mojó la camisa.*
(not "mojé mi camisa")

I know you know all of this but I just wanted to show you what we were taught the "accidental se" is!


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## Edwin

Artrella said:
			
		

> • Spanish avoids the passive with ser when the agent of the action is unknown or irrelevant.  The most common way of expressing a passive idea in Spanish –that something happens, but without expressing who in particular does it–, is by using se with a verb in the third person:
> Ese modelo ya no se usa. That model is not used (in use) anymore.
> • When the subject (modelo in the above example) is plural, the verb must be plural:
> Esos modelos ya no se usan. Those models are not used anymore.
> *Se venden camisas en esta tienda. Shirts are sold in this store. *
> 
> 
> Check this last example:::  Shirts are sold in this store by someone/by one
> 
> *See the whole text in point 41 b*



Gracias, Art. Ese enlace es bonito.  Ojalá que, por fin, la voz pasiva con y sin ser haya sido entendido por mí.  ?


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## Ana Raquel

Edwin said:
			
		

> Esto me recuerda alguna duda. Son correctas estos?
> 
> 1. se vende autos aqui = one sells cars here
> 
> 
> 2. se venden autos aqui = cars are sold here
> 
> 
> 3. se vende un auto = a car is sold? one sells a car? car for sale?


¿Son correctos estos (ejemplos)? ¿Son correctas estas (frases)?
Se venden autos.


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## Ana Raquel

Edwin said:
			
		

> autos son vendido aqui
> 
> How about:
> 
> Uno vende autos aqui.


Hi Edwin. 
None of these expressions works in Spanish.
First, it would be 'vendidos' if the expression could be used, but it can't.
Then, the natural expression would be 'Se venden coches' or, better, (though I know you are asking about de use of 'se'), 'Venta de coches'

I know too that you are "dissecting" the expressions and checking meanings and uses, but I've found the thread confusing and I wanted to simplify it, to stick to the correct uses.


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## Boerboel

Yes, I know the general meaning of "Cómo se dice", but as I've been sorting out the different uses of "se" I was wondering if my thoughts on the literal translation of "Cómo se dice" are correct.  I actually have not yet read in a Spanish book the technical grammatical use of "se" in this context (if I have, then what I'm about to say is totally wrong) ,but from reading and from oral translations in my Spanish class, I have an idea.  Please correct me if I'm wrong, but does "Cómo se dice" literally translate to "How is said"?  Go ahead and laugh all you want, but I would like to know the literal meaning.

Thanks!


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## uruguacha

Boerboel, nobody is going to laugh, we are here to learn from others and to help i f we can.

I use to say:

"How do yo say?"

I hope it help, anyway, many peolpe is going to help you.


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## ealtes

There is not a literal translation, because in "How is said", "said" is a participle. "Dice" is a present tense, third person indicative verb. The "se" is a "reflexive pronoun", which turns the action of the verb back on onto the subject.

"Me llamo" is "I call" if you don't translate the "me", and that reflexive pronoun turns the action of "calling" back onto "myself".

If I was to translate "Como se dice" as literally as possible (and still make sense), I would also say, "How is (it, which is implied) said." But that still isn't the same.

In Spanish, the "se", "te", "me", etc. all serve to direct the action of the verb.


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## jacinta

¿Cómo se dice door en español?  How is door said in Spanish?

*Se dice *is the passive form of the verb.  The passive voice in Spanish uses "se" as the pronoun, similar to the English "one".  Another way to translate it would be "How does one say...?"

*Se venden boletos de lotería aquí. * Lottery tickets are sold here.
*Se habla español aquí*.  Spanish is spoken here.


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## arevalch

how it is said?


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## Boerboel

Thanks!  I'll look up the passive form in my Spanish books tonight.


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## Porteño

I would translate it as 'How do you say?'


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## psicutrinius

Well, I am afraid that there is no use (that I know of), of the reflexive in English for this case, therefore, there is no litteral translation (and, btw, why would we use litteral translations anyway?). 

You can either go passive (_how is it said?_), or (if you want to avoid doing this), "_how would we say_...?" or, perhaps, "_how would one say...?_", which gets closer to the non-personal "value" of the "se", but which sounds weird to me.

Notice also that if you go passive, you have said _before_ the "how..." what you want to know, but in the latter cases you say it immediately _afterwards,_ which is also the case for _"cómo se dice..."._

This "no-use" works both ways: If you translate the passive litterally into Spanish you get "¿_cómo es dicho_?", which every Spanish speaker would understand, but which sounds very weird, and which no Spaniard would say himself, ever.


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## elchoco

Here's some examples with different english versions. The "you" versions at the end are the most coloquial and are an impersonal "you" meaning, sort of, "everyone". 

¿Como se dice? = How is it said? = How does one say it? How do you say?

¿Como se juega? = How is it played? = How does one play it? = How do you play it?

¿Como se cocina? = How is it cooked = Does does one cook it? = How do you cook it? 

Also constructions like this:

¿como se suena? = How does it sound? = What does it sound like?


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## Boerboel

Muchas gracias a todos!  

I read about passive tense in a couple of different Spanish books, and that helped.  And thank you all for your explanations and examples!


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## Soy Yo

¿Cómo se dice 'X'?"

How is X said?
How do you say X?
How does one say X?

Es una construcción pasiva especial que utiliza el "se" y el verbo en 3a persona.


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## ChicaCanadiense

Hi de nuevo, foreros 
Tengo una pregunta para ustedes: por qué dicen "Cómo se dice", si decir no es un verbo reflexivo? Estoy más o menos segura que no es. 

Puede alguien explicarme eso? 

Estoy pensando que *(o estoy pensando de que??)* el "se" significa que la gente en general lo están haciendo? Pero no sé para nada, es solo una adivina. 
__________________________________________________
In English: Why do people say "Cómo se dice", if "decir" is not a reflexive verb?
What is the "se" for? I thought it meant "How do people say ..."


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## lazarus1907

Hello,

This "se" in Spanish is far more complex than just a simple "reflexive". Here it is used as impersonal. Let me explain:

When there is no one in particular, you say: 
_How do you say? __How does someone say?_
In Spanish you say:¿Cómo se dice?

Other examples:
¿Cómo se pronuncia...? ¿Cómo se traduce...? (how do you pronunce/how is it pronunced...?...)


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## Rayines

"Se dice" es lo que "se dice" voz pasiva refleja: en lugar de decir "es dicho" (voz pasiva), dices "se dice". Pero también es correcto tu razonamiento. Cuando equivale a "lo que la gente dice", se denomina "impersonal". Podría ubicarse en una u otra categoría.
Nunca "pensar de  que" .
Edit: lazarus da su voto al impersonal >>>>Síguelo a él .


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## Perico Nuevo

http://spanish.about.com/cs/verbs/a/passive_se.htm

Este enlace debe ayudarte


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## Piru

respondo tu segunda pregunta: se dice "estoy pensando que" sin la preposicion "de", para que te des cuenta seria: estoy pensado "esto" ("de esto" no seria correcto)


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## ChicaCanadiense

Muchas gracias 

Man, this forum is helpful. 
Aunque necesito ayudarles a los otros foreros más; me siento que soy un dependiente.


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## thes0ulfly

if someone can help me with this, i am not too sure on how to word my sentences, especially a long one. i know some of how they go and i am afraid i am going to get it wrong and offend someone. here is an example of a sentence:

i am busy now, call me later or i will call you in 5 hours.

here is how i think it is:

*estoy ocupado, tu me llamar adelente o, yo tu llamo en 5 horas.*


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## Angiebot

thes0ulfly said:


> if someone can help me with this, i am not too sure on how to word my sentences, especially a long one. i know some of how they go and i am afraid i am going to get it wrong and offend someone. here is an example of a sentence:
> 
> i am busy now, call me later or i will call you in 5 hours.
> 
> here is how i think it is:
> 
> *estoy ocupado, tu me llamar adelente o, yo tu llamo en 5 horas.*


 

I am busy now = *ahora estoy ocupado*

call me later = *llámame* (tú) *más tarde*

or i will call you in 5 hours = *o te llamaré* (yo) *dentro de(/en)* *cinco horas*

*Hoping to be helpful*


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## jmacc2

"como se dice"  means 'how does one say'. this sounds formal or "english" to an american because we always use 'you' instead of 'one'. sometimes in spanish (although not with this particular phrase) the 'se' this replaced with 'uno'.
for instance..."como SE llega a la calle tal y tal" could be said as "como llega UNO a la calle tal y tal" in other words, the use of the word 'uno' is less "correct", just as using "you" is less "correct" than  using "one" which sound more "British". in this case, decir is not being used as a reflexive verb. 
another point of view could be taken if one were to translate this phrase as " how it said". in this case, then it would be classified as "the passive voice" (se habla espanol aqui= spanish IS SPOKEN here.) the passive voice is much more widely used in spanish than in english. why that is the case is another subject. if anybody wants to tackle that subject go ahead. if not, i'll be glad to give you a FAST answer next time.


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