# 拳を開くように



## Riccardo91

Dear Japanese forum,

could you help me to get the meaning of the following sentence? Two men are talking about music being more direct than words when it comes to convey feelings, as it reaches the heart directly, and this example is made:

軍隊の音楽はまるで拳を開くように私の背筋を伸ばす
(Music from armed forces gets me to straighten up my back just like I unclench my fists.)

I'm not getting the 拳を開くように part at all, so I guess I'm mistaking something in my translation.

Thank you!


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## Flaminius

You translated the sentence correctly.  It really says that military tattoos straighten my back just like unclenching the fists.  It, however, leaves ample room for interpretation who unclenches whose fists.  It may be that the music unclenches my fists or its fists. It may be that the subject is I, the speaker.

You may want to show us more context so we may further analyze your text.  But it may turn out to be a typo or a flight of fancy.


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## Riccardo91

There's no more context that could provide additional informations, alas. That sentence is said to be a Goethe quotation in the movie, but I've checked and it doesn't appear to be true. The character just quotes it to reaffirm the fact tha sounds are more important than meanings (this is important in the plot, given that the character has found a way to induce violent acts through the sound of words).

It's true, however, that Goethe talked about the effects of music on human beings. I've found this text:
Full text of "Goethe and Beethoven"

_I know nothing more terrible than military music  in a minor key. Here the two extremes clash, and wound the heart instead of stunning it. The most remarkable example of this is the Marseillaise._

And about fists unclenching:
_Milder's voice, Szymanowska's playing, even the public performances of the local infantry band — they all make me relax just as a man's fist, closed in anger, opens under a friendly impulse._

It doesn't help us, though. Goethe is talking about relaxation here, and that's not what you'd expect from listening a military march.

I was wondering: if the music makes the speaker straighten up his back, it means the he's assuming a military position, like a soldier at attention. And they usually have their hands wide open, like in this picture:
https://image.shutterstock.com/image-photo/full-body-side-view-young-600w-162040508.jpg

Could it be "Music from armed forces gets me to straighten up my back, just like it unclenches my fists"? Does it work from a grammatical point of view?

Thank you again!


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## Flaminius

Yes, it works grammatically, although I would choose a more straight-forward expression if that is the intended meaning.  Well, I must confess that this is too recondite to my analytical abilities!


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## Riccardo91

It's the movie itself that's too recondite. I'm struggling a lot with it, unfortunately.

If other interpretations come to your mind, please feel free to share them!

Thank you very much, as always!


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## SoLaTiDoberman

What is the context?
Is it a Japanese movie or a western movie with Japanese subtitle?
Are the two men Japanese?
Are they talking about Japanese army (戦中戦前の日本軍）or Japanese self-defence forces (自衛隊）?
Was the sentence spoken by the actor or was it written?
When is it?

I think the sentence might be a direct translation from other language.
If so, you should check the original version.

If Goethe didn't write or say it, the man just tried to make an imitated, directly-translated and sounds-funny proverb which seems Goethe would say originally in German.
Something lofty and recondite, pretending that the guy was very smart and clever.

*The point is that a directly-translated Japanese could be unnatural.*


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## Riccardo91

It's a Japanese anime movie, the two man speaking are American. It takes place in the near future (2022).
They're not talking about any army in particular, the focus is on the power of sound. They say it's a quotation from Goethe, so we may say it could be referred to the German army, but I don't think it's relevant.

The sentence is spoken by the character. Searching for the original version is what I did, but I couldn't find anything. I then contacted a Goethe research association, that confirmed to me that the sentence hasn't been written by Goethe, almost certainly.

Being a sentence thrown there for sense of coolness, there's no other context that clarifies it.
The only thing I can do is to understand its literal meaning, I think.

Thank you very much!


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## SoLaTiDoberman

So is there any possibility you misunderstood what the guy actually said?
What exactly did he say?
"軍隊の音楽はまるで拳を開くように私の背筋を伸ばす" is definitely not a spoken expression.
You edit the original version, didn't you?

こぶしをひらく or こぶしをあく？


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## Flaminius

Hi,
I located the quote.  It's something that floats on the 'Net, so I don't know the exact chapter and verse.


> ゲーテはこう書いた。軍隊の音楽は、まるで拳を開くようにわたしの背筋を伸ばす、とね。
> 伊藤計劃『虐殺器官』​


As you can see, Riccardo's quote is the same with mine, all but one comma.  This won't count as an edit to the original.  I still don't have much hope that reading more of Itō's work will elucidate this conundrum.


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## Riccardo91

You found the original book from which the movie is taken. I've read it, and it doesn't clarify the sentence more than the movie.
I was trying to find where Goethe originally wrote this, but it seems it's not an actual quotation from him.

I can only translate it literally in a way that makes some sense. My version in post #3 is my best attempt so far.

Thank you!


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## SoLaTiDoberman

＃９＠：重要なインフォメーションをいただきありがとうございます。

『軍隊の音楽はまるで拳を開くように私の背筋を伸ばす 』と『ゲーテはこう書いた。軍隊の音楽は、まるで拳を開くようにわたしの背筋を伸ばす、とね。』 は私には全く違うcontextと思われます。前者は文語であり、後者はゲーテの格言を引用した会話文です。『伊藤計劃『虐殺器官』 』もバックグラウンドがわかりキーポイントになると思います。
*　*スレッドの＃１に＃９の文面をノンネイティブスピーカーが提示さえしてくれていれば、莫大な無駄な時間を費やさずにすんでいました。

　やはり私の解釈では、伊藤計劃 が、偉人の格言を引き合いに出すようなキャラを演出するため、架空のゲーテの格言を作り出し、もったいぶって話させたのだと思います。ゲーテの格言らしく見せるために、直訳体の、不自然な表現を創作したものと思います。（実際のゲーテの格言にはない、ということが前提ですが。）読み手をケムに巻いてかっこよいと思わせる一種の修辞法か、伊藤計劃のスタイルなのだと思いますけど。実際のゲーテの格言にあったのなら、それを引用したまでのことであり、実際にあろうがなかろうが、どちらでも良いことと私は思います。

　こちらの欲しい情報をノンネイティブスピーカーがcontext, backgroundとともに、原文を忠実に提示さえしてくれれば、話しは簡単になるのですが、言い換えれば、＃９の情報を＃１で提示さえしてくれれば良いことなのですが、それはノンネイティブスピーカーには期待できないことであり、それをたずねてもランゲージバリアがあるのか、こちらの欲しい情報は答えてくれず無駄な時間が過ぎる、それがこのフォーラムの(このフォーラムに限らず国際コミュニケ－ションの）限界かもしれないと最近思います。


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## Riccardo91

Dear SoLaTiDoberman,

thanks for your message! Being involved in translations almost on a daily basis, I deeply understand how much context is essential to correctly interpret a sentence, or even a single word. As a result, I see how knowing that the topic sentence is actually a "reported quotation" can affect your perception of the sentence itself.

In this particular case, however, I spent a lot of time myself searching for additional context than that provided by the original work, only to come to the conclusion that it didn't give me any additional key on how to interpret the problematic part. We'll never know if the author voluntarily made up a Goethe-like quotation of if he genuinely believed it true (because he read it somewhere else, for example). Although interesting, I'm afraid that knowing this won't give us any hint on how to translate it (we're still stuck to the interpretation given in post #3, after all).

Also, sometimes I find valuable to just present the issue in terms of "If something like this pops out to you, what would be your fist impression?". It's not that different to what happens in the movie itself, after all. In a case like this one, in my opinion, it's more useful to just list all the grammatically possibile options and then go for exclusion. Knowing that we'll never be 100% sure about what the author meant by that.

I hope you will forgive me if this time I focused myself merely on the grammatical meaning of the sentence. It seemed to me the best thing to do when I posted the topic. 
As you helped me a lot in the past, I'm sure you've come through some wordy explanation of mine too, in those cases where I believed it was important to have the complete picture of the scene. Of course, sometimes we can be wrong and omit crucial informations or underline unnecessary ones, but that's part of the game, I think!

Finally, I totally agree with you that knowing who the original author is and which work we're talking about would be useful, Unfortunately, publishers are generally not too happy with collaborators publicly saying what they're working on, so I have to keep my requests as generic as possibile.

This said, I still have a couple of sentences troubling me, so I'm afraid I'll have to ask again for your help! It's always a pleasure to discuss with you all, you really help me a lot and improve my understanding of Japanese language.

Thank you so much,

Riccardo


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## Flaminius

この作品について知っておくべきことは、もう少しあると思いました。この記事によれば、伊藤氏は病に侵されながら10日でこの作品を執筆したそうです。リッカルドさんがあげたこの一文のように不正確な引用が混ざっているのも、作品の成立過程からはやむを得ないことではないかと思われます。有名な引用を振り回すエセインテリの造型が意図されていたと考える必要は必ずしもありません。

さて、「まるで拳を開くように」に別の解釈ができることに気づいたので、お知らせします。これは、人にとって拳を開くのが容易であるのと同じくらい容易に、という意味の暗喩表現ではないでしょうか。


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## SoLaTiDoberman

「拳を開くよう」に
には、
「手の指が180度以上屈曲した状態（拳の状態）から、まっすぐになるように、背骨がひどくまがっていても、*まっすぐに*なる」
「拳を開くように*一瞬で*」
「拳を開くように、パッと、*パアっと*（ぐうちょきパアのダジャレ→ゲーテは外人なのであり得ないか。）」
という意味もありえないことはないと思います。

さらに、この文脈には絶対に合わないと思いますが、
「態度が硬化していたのが、軟化する」「攻撃的だったのが融和的になる」「仲直りする」「打ち解ける」的な意味もありると思います。
日本語のイディオムではないから、言語によらず様々な解釈があると思います。


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## Riccardo91

The "fast/easy as opening a punch" interpretation seems to fit very well. If it's the right one, however, I find the original sentence to be a bit sloppy: without an adjective it's not clear at all.

If nothing else comes out, I'll go with this one. Thank you very much!

Edit: or maybe, more simply, if you open a punch and at the end of the process the fingers point to the sky, they have straightened up in a way that's similar to what the back does. Who knows...


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