# Today is [date]



## César Lasso

Hello,

How can I say in fuS7à "Today is February 1st"? And "Today is February 8th"?

Shukran.


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## Matat

الْيَوْمَ الْأَوَّلُ مِنْ شُبَاطَ
الْيَوْمَ الثَّامِنُ مِنْ شُبَاطَ


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## elroy

Matat said:


> الْيَوْمَ الْأَوَّلُ مِنْ شُبَاطَ
> الْيَوْمَ الثَّامِنُ مِنْ شُبَاطَ


 اليومُ, not اليومَ.  It's a مبتدأ here, not a ظرف زمان.


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## akhooha

I'm sure that this gets into a discussion about the definition of فصحى since both شُبَاط and فبراير are borrowed from languages other than Arabic, but I would say that فبراير is more commonly understood than شُبَاط


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## Matat

elroy said:


> اليومُ, not اليومَ. It's a مبتدأ here, not a ظرف زمان.


No, it's a ظرف زمان. The subject is الأول. "The first of February is today."



akhooha said:


> I'm sure that this gets into a discussion about the definition of فصحى since both شُبَاط and فبراير are borrowed from languages other than Arabic, but I would say that فبراير is more commonly understood than شُبَاط


It's dependent on the country. The Syriac months are used in Syria, so you'd hear شباط more than you'd hearفبراير. In Egypt, it would be the other way around.


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## akhooha

Where else in the Arab world would you hear شباط more than فبراير besides Syria (and probably Lebanon)?


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## Matat

Good question. I don't know. This would be a good forum question.


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## elroy

akhooha said:


> I would say that فبراير is more commonly understood than شُبَاط


 This doesn't have to do with the definition of فصحى; this is simply about regional differences.  Some countries use فبراير; others use شباط; and still others use something else.  In the Levant فبراير is not going to be readily understood by everyone.  It's never used in the spoken language, and in writing, when it's used, it's not used on its own - it's always شباط/فبراير.

فصحى has tons of borrowings from other languages.  I don't think anyone in their right mind would take any issue whatsoever with words like دفتر and برنامج. 


Matat said:


> Nope. It's a ظرف زمان. The subject is الأول. "The first of February is today."


 That's a different sentence, telling us something about the first of February.  The sentence we have here is telling us something about today. 


akhooha said:


> Where else in the Arab world would you hear شباط more than فبراير besides Syria (and probably Lebanon)?


 Palestine for sure, and undoubtedly Lebanon, Jordan, and Iraq as well. (Side note: I'm not sure why Syria so often gets treated as the token Levantine country.  The vast majority of notable Levantine features found in Syrian are found in the other Levantine dialects as well.  Syria is not linguistically distinct the way Egypt is.)


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## César Lasso

Thank you for the interesting discussion. I have two further doubts. How would I say February 11th and February 21st? My doubt has to do with the ordinal numbers. In Spanish we use cardinal numbers for dates.


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## elroy

الحادي عشر من شباط
الأول والعشرون من شباط


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## Matat

elroy said:


> That's a different sentence, telling us something about the first of February. The sentence we have here is telling us something about today.



It's not a different sentence at all. "Today" is the subject in the English sentence "Today is the Feb. 1st", but as a translation/interpreting instructor, you are well aware (even more so than I am) that the syntax of one language can't simply be applied to the other. In the Arabic sentence اليوم الأول من شباط, _alyawm_ is not the مبتدأ, unlike how "Today" is the subject in the English sentence. If اليوم was المبتدأ, then "February 1st" would be a description of the day, which it's not. You'd say اليومُ جميلٌ for "The day is beautiful". This is not the case in this sentence. اليوم is an adverb of time describing when a particular date is happening. This is similar to the famous Hadith


> *الْيَوْمَ يَوْمُ الْمَرْحَمَةِ*، الْيَوْمَ أَعَزّ اللهُ فِيهِ قُرَيْشًا


"Today is the Day of Mercy"

The syntax of الآن الساعة الثانية is no different. الآن would also not be المبتدأ, but a ظرف زمان.


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## elroy

Matat said:


> If اليوم was المبتدأ, then "February 1st" would be a description of the day, which it's not.


 The function of a خبر is not just to describe, as you know.  It can also establish an equivalence, as in الأسد رئيس سوريا.  I don't see why اليوم الأول من شباط can't be analyzed the same way.

I'm not mapping English syntax onto Arabic.  Certainly you agree that regardless of language, there is a difference between saying "Today is February 1st" and "February 1st is today."  These are different statements. 


Matat said:


> The syntax of الآن الساعة الثانية is no different.


 This _is_ different.  الساعة الثانية is a مبتدأ وخبر and can stand alone as a sentence.  الآن is an adverb modifying what is already a complete sentence.  الساعة الثانية = The time is two o'clock.  الآن الساعة الثانية = The time is two o'clock now.


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## Matat

elroy said:


> Certainly you agree that regardless of language, there is a difference between saying "Today is February 1st" and "February 1st is today." These are different statements.


Yes, in English there is a grammatical difference, because in English the subject is "Today" in the first sentence while the rest of the sentence is the predicate. In the second sentence, the subject and predicate are reversed. However, the overall meaning is the same. You can also reverse the subject and predicate in different sentences in Arabic as well (in most cases) if the subject and predicate are both definite اسم's which are not شبه جملة's.

But the Arabic sentence اليوم الأول من شباط doesn't operate in the same manner in Arabic as the English translation of the sentence operates in English. There aren't two different varieties of the sentences with a subtle difference like there is in English. It is only said in one way where اليوم is the adverb, just as in the example I gave above اليومَ يومُ المرحمةِ.



elroy said:


> This _is_ different. الساعة الثانية is a مبتدأ وخبر and can stand alone as a sentence. الآن is an adverb modifying what is already a complete sentence. الساعة الثانية = The time is two o'clock. الآن الساعة الثانية = The time is two o'clock now.


No. الثانية is not a خبر. It's a نعت/صفة of الساعة. The خبر is الآن, which is a ظرف زمان مقدم وشبه الجملة في محل رفع خبر (or others would say that it's ظرف زمان مقدم متعلق بخبر محذوف, which is also a valid explanation). The ِArabic sentence is not saying "The hour is the second, now"; it's saying "The second hour is now" or "Now is the second hour". اليومَ الأولُ من شباط works the exact same way. اليومَ يومُ المرحمة works the exact same way as well. Just because there is a subtle difference between "The second hour is now" and "Now is the second hour" in English, in Arabic, only variety exists, which is الآن الساعة الثانية where الآن is the adverb, not المبتدأ.


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## Matat

elroy said:


> The function of a خبر is not just to describe, as you know. It can also establish an equivalence, as in الأسد رئيس سوريا. I don't see why اليوم الأول من شباط can't be analyzed the same way.


As I think about it a little more, I'm starting to think that your interpretation may be equally valid. I now feel like both could be correct.
اليومَ الأولُ من شباط where اليوم is a ظرف زمان مقدم  and الأول is المبتدأ. (Today is the first of February)
اليومُ (هو) الأولُ من شباط where اليوم is a مبتدأ and الأول is a خبر. (The day is the first of February)


So I'm going to take back saying that it's wrong, since it seems to be a valid opinion, but I still think the standard إعراب for saying the date would be in making اليوم a ظرف.


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## Matat

I'm convinced now that both are valid. Read here: 


> وقوله: *اليوم يوم الرضع بالرفع فيهما، وبنصب الأول ورفع الثاني،* حكى سيبويه: *اليوم يومك، على أن تجعل اليوم ظرفا في موضع خبر للثاني*، لأن ظروف الزمان يخبر بها عن زمان مثلها إذا كان الظرف يتسع ولا يضيق على الثاني


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## elroy

Matat said:


> Yes, in English there is a grammatical difference


 I'm not talking about grammatical differences.  I'm talking about the semantic content.

"Today is February 1st" (please ignore the grammatical structure and the fact that this is English and just focus on what the sentence is actually saying) is telling us something about "today."  "February 1st is today," on the other hand, is telling us something about "February 1st."  This difference can definitely be expressed in Arabic as well:

1.) Today is February 1st: اليوم الأول من شباط
2.) February 1st is today: يقع الأول من شباط اليوم

What I've been trying to say is that if, in the original sentence, اليوم الأول من شباط, اليوم is ظرف مكان منصوب, then the topic (مبتدأ) of the sentence is الأول من شباط, making the sentence _semantically _equivalent to #2 above.  Similarly, in تحت السرير وسادة, where تحت is a ظرف مكان منصوب في محل رفع خبر مقدم, the topic of the sentence is وسادة and the sentence is semantically equivalent to هناك وسادة تحت السرير.


Matat said:


> No. الثانية is not a خبر. It's a نعت/صفة of الساعة. The خبر is الآن, which is a ظرف زمان مقدم وشبه الجملة في محل رفع خبر (or others would say that it's ظرف زمان مقدم متعلق بخبر محذوف, which is also a valid explanation). The ِArabic sentence is not saying "The hour is the second, now"; it's saying "The second hour is now" or "Now is the second hour".


 It's not enough to simply restate what you already said in different words.   You haven't proved that your analysis is valid and mine is not.

الساعة الثانية is indisputably a complete sentence, where الساعة مبتدأ والثانية خبر.  This is the normal way to say "It is two o'clock."  If we add الآن, why would the analysis suddenly change from مبتدأ وخبر to نعت ومنعوت??  It is entirely commonplace in Arabic to add adverbs to already complete sentences, and I see absolutely no reason to reject that analysis here.  Another example would be الطعام جاهز الآن or الآن الطعام جاهز.  There's no difference.


Matat said:


> Just because there is a subtle difference between "The second hour is now" and "Now is the second hour" in English, in Arabic, only variety exists, which is الآن الساعة الثانية where الآن is the adverb, not المبتدأ.


 No, in Arabic, too, you can say either الساعة الثانية الآن or الآن الساعة الثانية.  And I never said الآن was a مبتدأ (where did you get that from what I said?).  We agree it's a ظرف.  What we disagree about is the analysis of الساعة الثانية.


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## Mahaodeh

elroy said:


> This doesn't have to do with the definition of فصحى; this is simply about regional differences. Some countries use فبراير; others use شباط; and still others use something else. In the Levant فبراير is not going to be readily understood by everyone. It's never used in the spoken language, and in writing, when it's used, it's not used on its own - it's always شباط/فبراير.
> 
> فصحى has tons of borrowings from other languages. I don't think anyone in their right mind would take any issue whatsoever with words like دفتر and برنامج.



 Especially the last paragraph. Once a word is borrowed it becomes part of the language permanently, and one can not say that شباط is any less Arabic than ربيع الأول unless we are discussing etymology. 



elroy said:


> الأول والعشرون من شباط


I think you mean الحادي والعشرون من شباط


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## elroy

Mahaodeh said:


> I think you mean الحادي والعشرون من شباط


You’re right!  Something about الأول والعشرون sounded off as I was writing it, but I couldn’t think of anything else in the moment!


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## Matat

Matat said:


> اليومُ (هو) الأولُ من شباط





elroy said:


> الساعة الثانية is indisputably a complete sentence,


You are now starting to move into interpretations which require one to stretch extremely far into technicalities. From a purely grammatical point of view, you can make an argument for a lot of sentences, but that doesn't mean those are the best grammatical analyses of those sentences. You are interpreting الساعة الثانية as a مبتدأ وخبر, but the problem with الساعةُ الثانيةُ and اليومُ الأولُ من شباط being a مبتدأ وخبر is that there is no ضمير الفصل. If these were really thought of as مبتدأ وخبر instinctually by speakers, especially in MSA, you would without question hear الساعةُ *هي* الثانيةُ (not الساعة الثانية) and اليومُ *هو* الأولُ من شباط (not اليومُ الأولُ من شباط), just as you'd hear القائد *هو* الأطول for "The leader is the tallest", not القائد الأطول. In any other مبتدأ وخبر links where two الـ ـ الـ's meet, you would hear that extra ضمير الفصل. This is done virtually 100% of the time in MSA. Even in Classical Arabic, where you would expect to find omissions of the ضمير الفصل, this is still done almost 100% the time. I only say "almost" just in case there are examples I'm not thinking of, but I can't think of any real examples of a مبتدأ والخبر where both are الـ..الـ, both meeting without a word in between, where there is no ضمير فصل. If you look at post #14 where I accepted that you may be able to make an argument that اليوم could be a مبتدأ, I couldn't help but include a هو along with it. In post #15 where I show the example used by one grammarian اليومُ يومُ الرضع (he also accepts اليومَ يومُ الرضع), a ضمير فصل is not used, which is normal in Classical Arabic and MSA since the second يوم doesn't have an الـ. This is similar to your example, الأسد رئيس سوريا, where رئيس doesn't have the الـ on it, but is in idaafa, so no ضمير فصل is used, but had it been الأسد *(هو)* الرئيس, you would unquestionably put a هو in between.

With two الـ's meeting in اليوم الأول من شباط, without the ضمير الفصل, speakers are clearly not instinctually using them as they would instinctually use a مبتدأ وخبر, but instead are thinking of it as a ظرف مقدم ومبتدأ مؤخر, making the argument that it's اليومَ, as an adverb, much stronger.



elroy said:


> making the sentence _semantically _equivalent to #2 above.


This is not about semantics. This is about what's the best way to say the date in Arabic. Using اليوم as a مبتدأ is not the best way to do so, especially without a ضمير فصل.

اليومُ الأولُ من شباط doesn't sound the best without a هو in between.

اليومَ الأولُ من شباط, on the other hand, sounds perfectly fine, since اليوم is not a مبتدأ, but a ظرف, and there is no problem with two الـ's meeting if one is an adverb.

The fact that the اليومُ (هو) الأولُ من شباط is semantically closer to "Today is Feb. 1" than اليومَ الأولُ من شباط, which is semantically closer to "Feb. 1st is today", doesn't mean that it's a better way to say the date.



elroy said:


> you can say either الساعة الثانية الآن or الآن الساعة الثانية.


Both of these mean the same thing despite the minor difference in word order. الآن is a ظرف in either case. The difference is simply whether الآن is مقدم or مؤخر. The fact that  الآن الساعة *هي* الثانية (with هي) is not what's being said is an indication that الثانية is not instinctually thought of as a خبر, but a نعت.



elroy said:


> And I never say الآن was a مبتدأ (where did you get that from what I said?).


I didn't say that you said that. I mentioned that it wasn't a مبتدأ to show you the relation between اليوم الأول من شباط and الآن الساعة الثانية (i.e. الآن is not a مبتدأ just as اليوم is not). This was before I found that اليوم could technically could be a مبتدأ (but once again, a ضمير الفصل should be placed if that is the case).


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## César Lasso

elroy said:


> الحادي عشر من شباط
> الأول والعشرون من شباط


Shukran!


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## Abu Talha

Matat said:


> I only say "almost" just in case there are examples I'm not thinking of, but I can't think of any real examples of a مبتدأ والخبر where both are الـ..الـ, both meeting without a word in between, where there is no ضمير فصل.


Just to add an example of this, there is a hadith: الدينُ النصيحةُ.


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## Matat

Abu Talha said:


> Just to add an example of this, there is a hadith: الدينُ النصيحةُ.


Thank you, Abu Talha. I suspected there may have been a few examples in CA out there somewhere.


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## akhooha

elroy said:


> and in writing, when it's used, it's not used on its own - it's always شباط/فبراير.





elroy said:


> Palestine for sure, and undoubtedly Lebanon, Jordan, and Iraq as well.


Yes. I am not arguing that شباط is not used. Levantine Arabic speakers (combined population of Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and Palestine) total 74 million, whereas total population of Arabic speaking nations totals 366 million. Especially in view of the fact that both terms (شباط/فبراير) are used together in writing in the Levant, I think it would have been more informative to answer that فبراير was the term for February with a P.S. that شباط is used by approximately 20% of Arabic speakers.


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## elroy

akhooha said:


> in view of the fact that both terms (شباط/فبراير) are used together in writing in the Levant


 No.  The vast majority of the time it's just شباط.  *Sometimes *فبراير is added.  As I said, 


elroy said:


> In the Levant فبراير is not going to be readily understood by everyone.


 I think most native speakers here answer based on their own usage, without stopping to think about what is used by the largest number of native speakers.

Moreover, as I said, فبراير is not the only term used outside the Levant and Iraq.  In Algeria and Tunisia it's  فيفري; in Saudi Arabia, the Gregorian calendar is not used at all; and Libya had its own set of names at least until 2011 (I'm not sure what they use now).


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