# Gendering trees



## Scholiast

Good afternoon everyone

It appears to be a consistent 'rule' of Latin that by grammatical gender, trees are feminine, irrespective of the declension to which their names belong (_ulmus_, _quercus_, _ilex_ and indeed _arbor_ itself). This appears to be generally true of Germanic terms as well (_die Eiche_, _die Olive_, _die Esche_, _die Ulme_ &c., but _der Ahorn_, and _der Baum_ itself).

I have two related questions.

(1) Is this pattern consistently followed in other IE languages, particularly those of the Romance legacy?
(2) Is there an agreed explanation for the pattern, going back to PIE?

Idle curiosity only.

Σ


----------



## rayloom

It seems French varies from Latin in that regard.
Un orme
Un chêne
Un sapin
Un olivier
Une arbre
I'm unsure of other Romance languages.


----------



## heterônimo

Off the top of my head, there's no specific rule in Portuguese. We use the suffix -_eiro_/-_eira _in a somewhat arbitrary fashion. _eg._ Oliveira (f), Palmeira (f), Cajueiro (m), Pinheiro (m). 

Comparatively, in French I can't think of a tree with suffix -_ière_, only -_ier_. _eg._ Cerisier (m), Palmier (m.).

I'm not sure about the tree names formed without the suffixes, though; Probably masculin? _s._ pt. o carvalho, fr. le chêne.


----------



## Nino83

In Italian those trees which produce fruits are normally masculine too (while the fruit is feminine). 
For example: pesca > pesco, pera > pero, mela > melo, oliva > ulivo, arancia > arancio and so on (but there is _mandarino, limone_ for both the fruit and the tree).
There are some trees that are feminine like _quercia, betulla_ but many trees are masculine.
The word _tree_ is masculine too (_albero_).


----------



## Scholiast

Dear all


Nino83 said:


> In Italian those tree which produce fruits are normally masculine too (while the fruit is feminine).
> pesca > pesco, pera > pero, mela > melo, oliva > ulivo, arancia > arancio and so on (but there is _mandarino, limone_ for both the fruit and the tree)


This arouses further curiosity. How did _arbor_, _arboris_ (f.) turn into _albero_ (m.), in contrast for example with _l'arbre_ which remains feminine)?

Or was this already an issue in ancient Vulgar Latin?

Σ


----------



## Dymn

French _arbre _is masculine. Only Portuguese (_árvore_) and her mother Galician (_árbore_) retain the feminine gender. Spanish (_árbol_), Catalan and French (_arbre_) and Italian (_albero_) are masculine. Even in Romanian (_arbore_) it's masculine.


----------



## Olaszinhok

rayloom said:


> Une arbre
> I'm unsure of other Romance languages.



The word _arbre_, tree,  is masculine in French, so _un arbre. _As it has already been mentioned, Portuguese is an exception, the word for tree is feminine _a àrvore_ and  plenty of trees are feminine too:
_oliveira_ = olive tree
_pereira_  = pear tree
_laranjeira_ = orange tree
_macieira_ = apple tree
_figueira  = _fig tree, *also in Spanish fig tree is feminine higuera *
However, there are some exceptions such as:
_limoeiro_ = lemon tree (masculine)
_pessegueir_o = peach tree and so on

Most of these trees are masculine in the other romance languages.


----------



## heterônimo

Olaszinhok said:


> However, there are some exceptions such as:
> _limoeiro_ = lemon tree (masculine)
> _pessegueir_o = peach tree and so on



Limoeiro, mamoeiro, juazeiro, abacateiro, cajueiro, cacaueiro, umbuzeiro, etc.

I don't think that masculine named trees are exceptions. Off the top of my head I can name you an equal amount of masculine and femine named trees in Portuguese. Even the most common trees in Mainland Portugal are masculine: pinheiro (pine tree), castanheiro (chestnut tree) and sobreiro (cork oak).


----------



## Olaszinhok

heterônimo said:


> Even the most common trees in Mainland Portugal are masculine: pinheiro (pine tree), castanheiro (chestnut tree) and sobreiro (cork oak).



Most fruit trees are feminine in Mainland Portugal, this is a peculiarity of Portuguese compared to other romance languages.



6.1. Distribution of Gender in Fruit Trees and in Their Fruits in Latin-Derived Languages
Percentages of fruit trees in the feminine in the Latin-derived languages examined, hereafter referred to as feminine trees, range from 0% in Romanian to 64% in Portuguese (median of 22%), while in Latin the value is higher, reaching 85% (Figure 7a).
Percentages of fruits in the feminine in the Latin-derived languages examined, hereafter referred to as feminine fruits, range from 43% in Asturian to 90% in Romanian (median of 64%), while in Latin the value is as low as 29%. However, names of fruits in Latin are almost never masculine (only in the ase of dates) but instead almost always neuter (Figure 7b).


----------



## Sardokan1.0

In Sardinian is feminine, like Portuguese, in Latin it was feminine

_S'àrvure, Sas àrvures_

the fruit trees in Sardinian are usually named like "àrvure de....."

_àrvure de pira
àrvure de mela
àrvure de figu (figu is feminine, even if it looks like a masculine uses the feminine articles : sa figu, sas figos)
àrvure de cariàsa
àrvure de olìa
àrvure de nughe
àrvure de mèndula_

etc.etc

while other trees (not fruit trees) don't use this kind of introduction

_Su quercu (pronounce Kercu) - Masculine
S'ùlumu (ulmus) - M.
S'èlighe (ilex) - F.
S'àlinu (alnus) - M.
_
there are many words (not only trees) that in Italian have one gender and in Sardinian the opposite or they sometimes preserved the gender that they had in Latin

some examples :

_*Sar*. - s'èlighe - F. - *Ita*. il leccio - M. - *Lat*. ilex-ilicis - F.
*Sar*. - su fìlighe - M. - *Ita*. la felce - F. - *Lat*. filex-filecis - F.
*Sar*. - sa dente - F. - *Ita*. il dente - M. - *Lat*. dens-dentis - M.
*Sar*. - su pùlighe - M. - *Ita*. la pulce - F. - *Lat*. pulex-pulicis - M.
*Sar*. - su ràndine - M. - *Ita*. la grandine - F. - *Lat*. grando-grandinis - F.
*Sar*. - su nie - M. - *Ita*. - la neve - F. - *Lat*. nix-nivis - F.
*Sar*. - su mugòre - M. - *Ita*. - la muffa - F. -* Lat*. mucor-mucoris - M.
*Sar*. - s'isprene - M. - *Ita*. - la milza - F. - *Lat*. splen-splenis - M.

_


----------



## Olaszinhok

Sardokan1.0 said:


> the fruit trees in Sardinian are usually named like "àrvure de....."
> 
> _àrvure de pira
> àrvure de mela
> àrvure de figu (figu is feminine, even if it looks like a masculine uses the feminine articles : sa figu, sas figos)
> àrvure de cariàsa
> àrvure de olìa
> àrvure de nughe
> àrvure de mèndula_



Just like in English.


----------



## sotos

It seems that plants change gender easily. In greek many have two or even 3 genders. Most fruit trees are female in new greek.


----------



## heterônimo

Olaszinhok said:


> Most *fruit trees* are feminine *in Mainland Portugal*, this is a peculiarity of Portuguese compared to other romance languages.



Fair enough, but, it's interesting to mention that it isn't the case when analyzing trees from everywhere else and/or don't have a (suculent) fruit.

Also, if in Portugal you have a castanheir*o*, in Brazil, we have a castanheir*a*-do-pará (brazil-nut tree); and Sobreira is an attested valid variant (at least historically).

I honestly don't believe there's a deeper meaning behind the -eiro/-eira suffix. Do you have some literature to back your assumption?



Sardokan1.0 said:


> the fruit trees in Sardinian are usually named like "àrvure de....."



In Brazil we can also say "um pé de ..." (a foot of ...).


----------



## Sardokan1.0

When there are many trees of the same kind, like a plantation or a wood, an adjective is coined from the name of the tree or from the fruit

_Nughe (nut) -> Nughedu (nut orchard)
Pira (pear) -> Pirastedu
Olìa (olive) -> Oliàriu
Àlinu (alnus) -> Alanedu
Ùlumu (ulmus) -> Ulumedu
Ozastru (wild olive tree) -> Ozastredu
Figu (fig) -> Figariu
Mèndula (almond) -> Mèndulariu_


----------



## Kotlas

Nino83 said:


> In Italian... the word _tree_ is masculine too (_albero_).





Scholiast said:


> This arouses further curiosity. How did _arbor_, _arboris_ (f.) turn into _albero_ (m.), in contrast for example with _l'arbre_ which remains feminine)?
> Or was this already an issue in ancient Vulgar Latin?


I find this Etimologia : albaro, albero; interesting.
So _albero_ (from lat. _albus_ - bianco) was a synonym for _poplar _(pioppo) and then became a general term for any tree.

That reminds me of this pair of words: the Italian _passero_ (sparrow) and the Romanian _pasăre_ (bird). (Sorry for going off topic).


----------



## Olaszinhok

Kotlas said:


> I find this Etimologia : albaro, albero; interesting.
> So _albero_ (from lat. _albus_ - bianco) was a synonym for _poplar _(pioppo) and then became a general term for any tree.



Interesting, indeed! So _Albero_ and _Albione- _Albion, the ancient name for Great Britain, have the same Latin root: _albus - bianco_ - White.


----------



## Scholiast

Greetings all once more


Scholiast said:


> ...in contrast for example with _l'arbre_ which remains feminine


Yes, I was obviously wrong about that, and thanks to those who have pointed it out. A bit like _la mer_ (Latin neuters are usually assimilated into the masculine in French but Latin _mare_ (n.) is a very obvious exception, remaining though, if I am not mistaken again, _*il *mare_ in Italian). My question remains: is there an identifiable philological pattern or 'rule' for these, so to speak, 'transvestite' nouns?
Σ


----------



## Nino83

Also in Sicilian, like in Portuguese, the suffix -ara (-eira/o in Portuguese) is very common and many trees are feminine.
pèssica > pissicara, alivu > luvara, castagna > castagnara, arancia > aranciara, mannarinu > mannarinara, lumiuni > lumiunara, pira > pirara, fica > ficara, girasa > girasara, nuci > nuciara, pricopa > pricupara
It seems there are more feminine trees than in Portuguese.
However "quercia" is masculine, "rùvulu", maybe from Latin rōbor (rovere, in Italian).
Also the word "ramo" (branch) is feminine, "rama", but the word "albero" is masculine, "àbbiru".

N.B.
If someone is stubborn, his head is as hard as the wood of the oak, "testa (d)i rùvulu".


----------



## Nino83

heterônimo said:


> In Brazil we can also say


In Sicilian too!
un pedi (d)i luvara = um pé de oliveira


----------



## Dymn

In *Catalan *the most productive is masculine _-er_ (_poma > pomer, taronja > taronger, cirera > cirerer, avellana > avellaner, castanya > castanyer, llimona > llimoner, préssec > presseguer_) and to a lesser degree feminine _-era_ (_oliva > olivera, pera > perera, nou >~ noguera_).

Trees mentioned by the OP: _om _(m, "elm"), _roure _(m, "oak"), _alzina _(f, "holm oak"), _freixe _(m, "ash"), _auró _(m, "maple").

On the other hand _-a > -o_ is a pretty common derivation in *Spanish* (_manzana > manzano, oliva > olivo, naranja > naranjo, cereza > cerezo, avellana > avellano, castaña > castaño_). There's also _-ero _(_limón > limonero, melocotón > melocotonero_) and _-al _(_pera > peral, nuez >~ nogal_).

Trees mentioned by the OP: _olmo _(m, "elm"), _roble _(m, "oak"), _encina _(f, "holm oak"), _fresno _(m, "ash"), _arce _(m, "maple").


----------



## heterônimo

Olaszinhok said:


> Percentages of fruit trees in the feminine in the Latin-derived languages examined, hereafter referred to as feminine trees, range from 0% in Romanian to 64% in Portuguese (median of 22%), while in Latin the value is higher, reaching 85% (Figure 7a).



A percentage of only 64% of feminine trees hardly makes a masculine tree an exception - almost fifty-fifty, it doesn't show a preference of gender _in my opinion_...



Nino83 said:


> In Sicilian too!
> un pedi (d)i luvara = um pé de oliveira



That's interesting! Personally, I never even heard a Portuguese person say "um pé de ...", only Brazilians use it, as far as I know. Is there a similar construction in Spanish? That might explain the missing link between Sicilian and Brazilian Portuguese!

By the way, we normally say "um pé de azeitona (fruit)" and not "um pé de oliveira (tree)"


----------



## Riverplatense

Scholiast said:


> My question remains: is there an identifiable philological pattern or 'rule' for these, so to speak, 'transvestite' nouns?



Not a definite answer, but a consideration: in many (maybe most) cases in which there are diverging genders in Romance or between Romance and Latin, it's nouns of the third declension, lacking the characteristic masculine (-_u[m]_) and feminine (-_a[m]_) endings. That's the case, for instance, with MARE (n.) →_ la mer_ (Fr.),_ il mare_ (It.) or FLORE(M) (m.) → _il fiore_ (It.), _la flor_ (Sp.) etc. So my theory is that there is no actual rule at all, but that popular interpretation of words with unclear endings could have been almost arbitrary in some cases.

I can also give two (rather indirect, though) arguments:

The Italian word _pecora _is a good example for such a misinterpretation. Initially, it was the plural of the Latin (third declension) neuter noun PECUS, but then it was perceived as feminine singular, so today in Italian it's _la pecora_ (sg.), _le pecore_ (pl.).
There was always a tendency to do away with the unclear _-e_ ending (going back to the third declension) in both Northern and Central-South Italian dialects, cf. Lombard _la carna_ (It.: _la carne_), Roman: _'a canzona_ (It.: _la canzone_).


----------



## aefrizzo

Hello.
Just for fun. Actually I cannot answer to Scoliast's question, sorry. At least in the following case the gender seems to have been assessed according to the reproductive laws.

What about dioecious trees? Look at the pistachio (Lat.Pistacia vera, feminine, often grafted on more robust species).
In WS Sicilian the plant with female flowers is called "Fastuca", feminine. The plant with male flowers is "Scornabeccu", masculine.
The fruit, "pistakkiu", is always masculine.


----------



## Sardokan1.0

Riverplatense said:


> The Italian word _pecora _is a good example for such a misinterpretation. Initially, it was the plural of the Latin (third declension) neuter noun PECUS, but then it was perceived as feminine singular, so today in Italian it's _la pecora_ (sg.), _le pecore_ (pl.).



A similar thing happens with the Sardinian word "pettorra" (chest) from Latin "pectora", plural of "pectus" (from which derives the Italian "petto")

in Sardinian instead the plural has become singular and feminine : 

pectora -> sa pettorra

and the plural has become "sas pettorras"


----------



## ahvalj

Concerning the ancient Indo-European usage, this is the widespread explanation:


> Le nom des arbres, régulièrement de genre féminin dans les langues indo-européennes, pouvait se justifier à travers la métaphore de l’être sexué féminin portant les enfants



Sexe et genre féminin : origine d'une confusion théorique | Cairn.info


----------



## Dymn

Scholiast said:


> My question remains: is there an identifiable philological pattern or 'rule' for these, so to speak, 'transvestite' nouns?


Third declension is the most gender-shaky, it seems.

For example nouns ending in _-gin_: _imagen _is feminine in Spanish but _origen _and _margen _are masculine, and in French all _image,_ _marge _and _origine _(learned) are feminine. And in Portuguese not only all _imagem, margem _and _origem _are feminine, but it influenced both the form and the gender of the _-age _suffix (_-agem_, feminine), of Gallo-Romance origin, which was masculine, as it is in French _-age_, Catalan _-atge_, Spanish _-aje _and Italian _-aggio_.

Also, nouns ending in _-or _are feminine in French (except for _amour_, the form itself is weird, should be _ameur_?), but masculine in Spanish, Italian and Portuguese (with the exception of _cor _"colour"?). Catalan is kind of split between patrimonial words (feminine) and learned words (masculine).

As for isolated cases:

Also, in the third declension, _lacte, sal, mel _and _sangue _are feminine in Spanish and Catalan but masculine in Portuguese, French and Italian.

_Dente _is feminine in Catalan and French but masculine in Spanish and Italian, _fronte _("forehead" and not "front") the other way round.


----------



## fdb

Olaszinhok said:


> 6.1. Distribution of Gender in Fruit Trees and in Their Fruits in Latin-Derived Languages
> Percentages of fruit trees in the feminine in the Latin-derived languages examined, hereafter referred to as feminine trees, range from 0% in Romanian to 64% in Portuguese (median of 22%), while in Latin the value is higher, reaching 85% (Figure 7a).
> Percentages of fruits in the feminine in the Latin-derived languages examined, hereafter referred to as feminine fruits, range from 43% in Asturian to 90% in Romanian (median of 64%), while in Latin the value is as low as 29%. However, names of fruits in Latin are almost never masculine (only in the ase of dates) but instead almost always neuter (Figure 7b).



This is a quotation from something. Could you tell us what? Another question: how is 22 the median of 0 and 64? Is it even statistically meaningful to include 0 in the calculation of a median?


----------



## fdb

ahvalj said:


> Le nom des arbres, régulièrement de genre féminin dans les langues indo-européennes...



This is blatantly wrong, as can be seen from the entries in this thread.


----------



## Olaszinhok

Hello fdb

This is the title of the article:



*“Language Is the Place from Where the World Is Seen”—On the Gender of Trees, Fruit Trees and Edible Fruits in Portuguese and in Other Latin-Derived Languages"


by Luís Silva Dias * and Alexandra Soveral Dias
Department of Biology, University of Evora, Portugal
*


----------



## fdb

Thanks, I found it here: “Language Is the Place from Where the World Is Seen”—On the Gender of Trees, Fruit Trees and Edible Fruits in Portuguese and in Other Latin-Derived Languages

22% is obviously a typo (in the cited article) for 32%.


----------



## apmoy70

sotos said:


> It seems that plants change gender easily. In greek many have two or even 3 genders. Most fruit trees are female in new greek.


If you think about it, every tree bearing fruit, is feminine in MoGr, while on the contrary the tree that does not bear fruit is neuter e.g.:
*«Μηλιά»* [miˈʎa] (fem.) --> _apple-tree_
*«Πορτοκαλιά»* [portokaˈʎa] (fem.) --> _orange-tree_
*«Ελιά»* [eˈʎa] (fem.) --> _olive-tree_
*«Ροδακινιά»* [ɾoðaciˈɲa] (fem.) --> _peach-tree_
*«Καστανιά»* [kastaˈɲa] (fem.) --> _chestnut-tree_
but...
*«Πεύκο»* [ˈpefko] (neut.) --> _pine-tree_
*«Κυπαρίσσι»* [cipaˈɾisi] (neut.) --> _cypress-tree_
*«Έλατο»* [ˈelato] (neut.) --> _fir-tree_.

Interstingly enough, the last three were also feminine in the ancient language:
*«Πεύκη» pe̯úkē* (PIE *pe̯uḱ- _sting_ cf Lat. quercus)
*«Κυπάρισσος» kŭpắrissŏs* (the -ss-/-tt- phoneme points to Pre-Greek substrate)
*«Ἐλάτη» ĕlátē* (unknown etymology)


----------



## ilocas2

In Czech trees are masculine or feminine, I can't think of a tree having neuter gender.

By the way, in Slavic languages, as opposed to Romance languages, cognates have nearly always the same gender across all Slavic languages.


----------



## ahvalj

fdb said:


> This is blatantly wrong, as can be seen from the entries in this thread.


The author here means the situation at the archaic stages within the family.

As far as I understand, this theory is based first of all on the presumable archaism of the Latin gender system: unlike other branches distinguishing masculine and feminine, Italic lacks this distinction in the adjectives and participles belonging to the _i-_ and consonant stems _(felix, fortis, major),_ e. g. the _nt-_participles uniquely have _-ns (<*nts)_ in both genders (and secondarily in neuter as well) vs. _*-ntihₐ_ in the feminine elsewhere.

This opposes Italic even to Celtic, where (though I don't understand how seriously) the Old Irish identical Nom. Sg. masc. and fem. in the _i- _(_maith_ "good") and _u- _(_il_ "many") stems are derived respectively from _-is : *-ī_ and _-us : *-ū _(e. g. _Pokorny J · 1914 · A concise Old Irish grammar and reader. Part I∶ grammar: _71).​
Latin nouns of the II, III and IV declensions are stably feminine whenever they denote trees (_quercus, laurus, ulmus, fāgus, taxus, pīnus, pirus, mālus, prūnus, alnus, carpinus, fīcus; īlex, larix, jūglāns, salix, abiēs; _including loans from Greek masculines:_ platanus, crataegus, murtus~myrtus, phoenīx;_ but _acer_ is somehow normally neuter and only occasionally feminine). In the case of the II declension this is a rare exception (also _humus_ and the names of countries, _Aegyptus,_ islands, _Rhodus, _and cities, _Corinthus_). Interestingly, river names in _-a _are often masculine (_Sēquana, Garumna, Amisia, Trebia_). All this suggests that Latin speakers had some strong motivation to assign _mālus_ to the feminine gender and _Garumna_ to the masculine.


----------



## Scholiast

Dear fellow-wordsmiths and foreasters

Thank you all for your most interesting responses and information.



Riverplatense said:


> in many (maybe most) cases in which there are diverging genders in Romance or between Romance and Latin, it's nouns of the third declension



Yes, I had a hunch about this, as the IIIrd declension verges morphologically towards a system akin to modern Danish, with a common (m. and f.) declension-pattern distinct from the n.



ahvalj said:


> including loans from Greek masculines:_ platanus, crataegus, murtus~myrtus, phoenīx_



This is fascinating—as a classicist by training I ought to have noticed that. Also ahvalj's added detail about rivers, which had not occurred to me. And 'Father' Tiber is self-evidently masc. as well.

Are there any other common anomalies in Romance, where the legacy-language genders are different from the Latin (any masculine 'hands' [> _manus_], for example?)

Σ


----------



## Scholiast

Dear all, but especially @Kotlas #15:


Kotlas said:


> That reminds me of this pair of words: the Italian _passero_ (sparrow) and the Romanian _pasăre_ (bird). (Sorry for going off topic)


Please do not apologise, at any rate not to me, for 'going off topic'. That's for the Moderator to decide. I find this fascinating. I am moved to wonder whether Lesbia's pet sparrow (_passer_, of course, in Latin, Catul. 3 &c.) was male or female.
Σ


----------



## Olaszinhok

Scholiast said:


> Dear all, but especially @Kotlas
> 
> Please do not apologise, at any rate not to me, for 'going off topic'. That's for the Moderator to decide. I find this fascinating. I am moved to wonder whether Lesbia's pet sparrow (_passer_, of course, in Latin, Catul. 3 &c.) was male or female.
> Σ



Also in Portuguese_ pàssaro _means bird and even in my Italian dialect p*a*ssaro = uccello = bird.


----------



## Scholiast

@Olaszinhok, and warm greetings to everyone.

_ucello > ocellus_? 'Darling of my eye'?

I'm glad I started this Thread, it grows more and more intriguing.

Σ


----------



## Olaszinhok

Scholiast said:


> _ucello > ocellus_? 'Darling of my eye'?
> 
> I'm glad I started this Thread, it grows more and more intriguing.



Hello Scholiast.
The etymology of Italian *uccello*, ancient Italian *augello,* meaning bird, should come from late Latin _Aucellus - avicellus/avicella_ diminutive of _Avis_ = bird


----------



## Scholiast

Ah, thank you Olaszinhok (# 38) for delivering me from another misapprehension!

Of course that makes sense.

Σ


----------



## Penyafort

The relationship between the common word for 'bird' and that of the 'sparrow' is certainly interesting.

It seems that, at some point, there was a distinction in West Iberian between the Latin AVIS for (big) birds, and small birds, for which the word taken was that for the sparrow, PASSER. So in Spanish, _ave _is used for general birds, specially big ones (bird of prey = _ave de rapiña_) while the common word for smaller birds is _pájaro_ (_pássaro _in Portuguese, _pasăre _in Romanian).

The word for a small bird in Latin, diminutive of AVIS (AVICELLUS), would the one be used in the central area (Italian _uccello_, French _oiseau_, Catalan _ocell_). In this sense (and oftentimes, as it is a matter of periphery vs centre), Portuguese and Spanish were conservative while Catalan, French and Italian were innovative (although Catalan would be more in the middle, as it retains the word _au _too).

In Valencian Catalan, though, the common word for 'bird' is _pardal_, which in general Catalan means 'sparrow'. _Pardal _also means 'sparrow' in Portuguese and in Old Spanish, which replaced it with the word _gorrión_, of uncertain origin. That Iberian pardal comes from Latin PARDALIS,a Greek loanword, related to the greyish brown colour of the bird.

That colour is also what the French considered for their word for sparrow, _moineau_, as it comes from the word for monk, _moine _(<MONACHUS), due to the clothes they wore.

PASSER is preserved as sparrow in Italian (_passero_) and French (_passereau_, from PASSERELLU). In Catalan, _passerell _is used instead for another passeriform, the linnet (and more commonly, in slang, for a greenhorn).



Scholiast said:


> It appears to be a consistent 'rule' of Latin that by grammatical gender, trees are feminine, irrespective of the declension to which their names belong (_ulmus_, _quercus_, _ilex_ and indeed _arbor_ itself).
> 
> (1) Is this pattern consistently followed in other IE languages, particularly those of the Romance legacy?





Dymn said:


> In *Catalan *the most productive is masculine _-er_ (_poma > pomer, taronja > taronger, cirera > cirerer, avellana > avellaner, castanya > castanyer, llimona > llimoner, préssec > presseguer_) and to a lesser degree feminine _-era_ (_oliva > olivera, pera > perera, nou >~ noguera_).
> 
> Trees mentioned by the OP: _om _(m, "elm"), _roure _(m, "oak"), _alzina _(f, "holm oak"), _freixe _(m, "ash"), _auró _(m, "maple").



The -er/-era suffix is mainly applied to fruit trees, though. I would say that the rest tend to be closer in gender to that of Latin.

Although apparently some tree names came from the Latin adjective, not the noun. _Alzina _in Catalan, like _encina _in Spanish, are feminine because they did not come straight from ILEX, but from *ILICINA. Others like _faig _(m.) in Catalan and _haya _(f.) in Spanish (that is, the beech) didn't come from FAGUS, but from FAGEUS and FAGEA, respectively. In cases like these, the noun gender indicates the gender of the adjective in Latin, but the choice could vary from language to language.


----------



## heterônimo

Similarly:

Portugese _veado _(deer) from _venatus _(hunted);
Portuguese _carneiro _(ram) from _carnarius _(meat);


----------



## Nino83

Probably after the loss of the final _m_ and the neuter gender people needed to distinguish between the fruit and the tree: 
_pirus_, accusative _pirum > piru > pero_ 
_pirum_, accusative _pirum > piru > pero_ 
As far as I know the plural form of the fruits was reanalyzed as feminine plural (_pira_, accusative plural of _pirum_ > _pera, pera/pere_). This happened also with _folia_ (accusative plural of _folium_)_ > folia, folias/folie_. 
_Piru > pero_ was seen as masculine, because of its ending and so all the other fruit trees, unless a specific feminine suffix was used (-(a)ra, -eira, -era and the like). 
This can explain the Italian _il pero_ (m.), French _le poirier_ (m.), Spanish _el peral_, Catalan _el perer_ (m.) or _la perera_ (f.), Portuguese _a pereira_ (f.), Sicilian _a pirara_ (f.).


----------



## sotos

apmoy70 said:


> If you think about it, every tree bearing fruit, is feminine in MoGr, while on the contrary the tree that does not bear fruit is neuter e.g.:



*«Πεύκο»* [ˈpefko] (neut.) --> _pine-tree_

*«Έλατο»* [ˈelato] (neut.) --> _fir-tree_.

Interstingly enough, the last three were also feminine in the ancient language:
*«Πεύκη» pe̯úkē* (PIE *pe̯uḱ- _sting_ cf Lat. quercus)

*«Ἐλάτη» ĕlátē* (unknown etymology)[/QUOTE]

But also ο πεύκος (male), o έλατος (male). Multigendered


----------



## Scholiast

Greetings all round, and thanks to Penyafort, heterônimo, Nino83 and sotos for more fascinating observations and details.



sotos said:


> Inter[e]stingly enough, the last three were also feminine in the ancient language:
> *Πεύκη» pe̯úkē* (PIE *pe̯uḱ- _sting..._)



How so? Because of pine-_needles_? And could the fluidity of the genders in Modern Greek have been influenced by Ottoman Turkish (a language of which I know virtually nothing)?

And is the community here generally agreed that what appears to be the predominating feminine gender in IE languages, at least for fructifers, is due to the analogy with animal reproduction?

Σ


----------



## Olaszinhok

Scholiast said:


> And is the community here generally agreed that what appears to be *the predominating feminine gender in IE languages, at least for fructifers*, is due to the analogy with animal reproduction?



Almost all fructifers are masculine in Italian.


----------



## aefrizzo

Buona sera, Scholiast. 
I feel a little marginalised, with all the respect to this community.


			
				And is the community here generally agreed that what appears to be the predominating feminine gender in IE languages said:
			
		

> .
> In my neck of woods I cannot quote any fructifer tree of feminine gender, from *A*ranciu  to *Z*inzulu (Ziziphus Jujube). The Pistachio of my post #23 is the only case that could recall  the animal reproduction. By the way it is also the only diocieous, traditional fructifer I know here. (Any other?)
> Western Sicilian, still an IE (sub)language, is apparently a bit different from Eastern Sicilian. As Nino83 has several times explained there are in Sicily at least three different linguistic areas, with different heritage from foreign dominations.


----------



## Scholiast

@aefrizzo



aefrizzo said:


> I feel a little marginalised



I apologise sincerely, aefrizzo, of course...

Σ


----------



## Nino83

aefrizzo said:


> *A*ranciu to *Z*inzulu


And it's arancinu, not arancina! 



Spoiler: aranciu/arancinu vs. arancia/arancina



Nel dialetto siciliano, come registrano tutti i dizionari dialettali, il frutto dell’_arancio_ è _aranciu_ e nell’italiano regionale diventa _arancio_.
Al dialettale _aranciu_ per ‘arancia’ corrispondono il diminutivo _arancinu_ per ‘piccola arancia’, _arancino _nell’italiano regionale
Si può ipotizzare che il prestigio del codice linguistico standard, verso cui sono sempre state più ricettive le aree urbane, abbia portato la forma femminile _arancia_ a prevalere su quella maschile _arancio_ nell’uso dei parlanti palermitani
Si dice arancino o  arancina? | Accademia della Crusca


----------



## merquiades

Scholiast said:


> And is the community here generally agreed that what appears to be the predominating feminine gender in IE languages, at least for fructifers, is due to the analogy with animal reproduction?
> 
> Σ


Quite the contrary,  the fruit trees are almost all masculine in Spanish and French at least (quite often in other languages too), but the fruits themselves are frequently feminine.  See post number 20 for more extensive information.
An example of this is apple, pear, orange
Trees (m):  el manzano, el peral, el naranjo  and  le pommier, le poirier, l'oranger
Fruits (f):   la manzana, la pera, la naranja   and  la pomme, la poire, l'orange


----------



## apmoy70

Scholiast said:


> Greetings all round, and thanks to Penyafort, heterônimo, Nino83 and sotos for more fascinating observations and details
> 
> How so? Because of pine-_needles_?


Perhaps who knows?


Scholiast said:


> And could the fluidity of the genders in Modern Greek have been influenced by Ottoman Turkish (a language of which I know virtually nothing)?


Nah, I think that is impossible as Turkish (like all Turkic languages) is genderless.
If I had to make a guess I'd say that the fluidity of the genders of trees in MoGr is simply dialectal.
Also one should not underestimate that often demotic words (i.e. the language that evolved naturally from Koine > Byzantine > MoGr) exist side by side with the Classical words (that were possibly re-introduced into MoGr through Katharevousa).
Thus, a tree that in the Classical (and Katharevousa) language was feminine, in demotic became neuter, often because difficult words of the Classical 3rd declension with complicated inflection, are simplified, and become 1st or 2nd declension nouns (and usually take the neuter gender).


----------



## sotos

Scholiast said:


> How so? Because of pine-_needles_?



A thought to the right direction, as that about fruits and femininity. Linguistic genders of trees should seem to be related to the biology and use of trees. There are tree species where the male and female are different individuals (e.g. in pistacia, if i'm not mistaken). Farmers can easily see that some trees are "male". In modern era, Freud first examined the relation of trees or wood to the female gender (mother, woman), with his observations on the linguistics of "mother, madeira, materia" etc. Shapes of fruits etc may also have a "freudian" symbolism. May I add my "observation" that in Greek mythology usually women are transformed to trees, but men to rocks. 




> And could the fluidity of the genders in Modern Greek have been influenced by Ottoman Turkish (a language of which I know virtually nothing)?



I don't think so. This multigenderism seem to exist before the ottomanocracy. Besides, in mainland Greece the turkish was not much spoken becoz the "Turks" were mostly albanian speakers. But I don't know anything about albanian language.


----------



## ahvalj

_Friedrich P · 1970 · Proto-Indo-European trees: the arboreal system of a prehistoric people_ discusses the names of 18 tree genera and mentions the following presumable gender distribution for the names belonging to the _o_-stems (page 156):


> two masculine _o_-stems (_*kosVlo-_ and _*akVrno-_), and at least seven feminine _o_-stems (_*alyso-, *bherHǵo-, *bhāǵo, *eywo-, *Vlmo-, *maHlo-,_ and _*tVḱso_)


----------



## Scholiast

Ahah. ahvalj, I knew I could rely on you to come up with the most sophisticated and learned remarks. спасиво

Σ


----------



## irinet

Hi,

Off-topic...

I have just realised that _pomegranate_, which is _rodie _in Romanian (<ngr. rhódi, ὀρθός) might have be the only fruit noun that changes into a verb '_a rodi_' (to yield fruits; via sl. 'roditi'). I believe there could be a relation.

Of course, it's feminine, while the tree, _rodier/rodiu_, of whose name I had no idea, is masculine.


----------



## sotos

irinet said:


> _rodie _in Romanian (<ngr. rhódi, ὀρθός)



Ορθός??  I don't think so. More related to "rose", because the pomegranade fruit, when small, looks like the "fruit" of rose.


----------



## apmoy70

irinet said:


> Hi,
> 
> Off-topic...
> 
> I have just realised that _pomegranate_, which is _rodie _in Romanian (<ngr. rhódi, ὀρθός)...


&


sotos said:


> Ορθός??  I don't think so. More related to "rose", because the pomegranade fruit, when small, looks like the "fruit" of rose.


Rom. *rodie* & MoGr *«ρόδι»* [ˈɾoði] (neut.) --> _pomegranate_ derive from the Byz.Gr. *«ῥοΐδιν» rhŏ.ídin* (neut.) < Classical fem. *«ῥόᾱ» rʰóā*, var. *«ῥοιά» rʰo̯iā́* < Classical deverbative fem. *«ῥοή» rʰŏḗ* < Classical v. *«ῥέω» rʰéō* --> _to flow, stream, stream off, (of hair/rip fruits) to fall off _ (PIE *sre̯u- _to flow, stream_ cf Skt. स्रवति (sravati), _to leak_, Lith. srava, _flow_, Proto-Slavic *struja, _stream_ > Rus. струя, BCS струja/struja; Persian رود (rud), _torrent_).
«Ῥέω» > «ῥόᾱ/ῥοιά» > «ρόδι» because of the fruit's rich juices.


----------



## irinet

Wow, that is very interesting. By analogy, your description is very similar to one of _grapes_: "rich juice" and "falling off".

The Romanian word _strugure/i_, which is *masculine* in sg. and plural, can derive from the origin you mentioned: "Proto-Slavic *struja,_stream_ > Rus. струя, BCS струja/struja".
The origins given in the dictionary awfully vary from Greek to German or Latin...

On the other hand, _rodie/i _is *feminine* in sg. and plural.

And now, what seems very interesting to me to emphasize here is that there seems to be a gendering question about the rule we apply with these two fruits. _How do we know that they differ in gender?!_
On a second thought, it's true that _strugure _used to be 'strugur'.

Those fruits are dissimilar in appearance: one is coated/covered, and the other's not.


----------



## Sumbecausecogito

rayloom said:


> It seems French varies from Latin in that regard.
> Un orme
> Un chêne
> Un sapin
> Un olivier
> Une arbre
> I'm unsure of other Romance languages.


Actually,in French "tree" (arbre) is MASCULINE! As in UN arbre. (French native speaker).


----------



## miasam

In Bulgarian all fruit-trees I can think of (праскова/praskova - peach, круша/krusha - pear, слива/sliva - plum, etc.) bear the names of their fruits which are usually female. Other trees have names of both genders (бор/bor m. - pine, ела/ela f. - fir) and the generic word for "tree" (дърво - durvo) is neutral.


----------



## Red Arrow

In *Dutch*, it is very regular. "linde" seems to be an exception.
I had to use the dictionary.

*masculine:* de boom, de eik, de spar, de beuk, de esdoorn, de den, de hazelaar (suffix -aar), de kerselaar, de populier, de berk, de wilg, de vlier, de iep, de hulst, de abeel, de els, de plataan

*feminine:* de linde
(Linde is also a female name, as is Els)

*neuter:* het sporkehout
=> because "hout" (wood) is neuter

*masculine or feminine depending on the meaning:* de kastanje, de vogelkers, de mispel
=> the tree is masculine, the nut / fruit is feminine


----------



## Olaszinhok

Red Arrow :D said:


> In *Dutch*, it is very regular. "linde" seems to be an exception. I had to use the dictionary.



What does _de linde_ mean?


----------



## Red Arrow

Any tree from the Tilia genus. The word "linden" is also used in English.
Tilia - Wikipedia


----------



## merquiades

Lime tree but I wouldn't know how to identify one.


----------



## Red Arrow

The leaves are quite large. The fruits are easily recognizable.


----------



## Olaszinhok

Ok thank you, _tiglio_ in Italian and _tilleul_ in French. Lime in English.


----------



## merquiades

Red Arrow :D said:


> The leaves are quite large. The fruits are easily recognizable.


  Ok, I see the typical Lime tree leaves.  I might see these trees a lot actually but confuse them with elm trees.  Apparently they make lime blossom tea from it.


----------



## apmoy70

Olaszinhok said:


> Ok thank you, _tiglio_ in Italian and _tilleul_ in French. Lime in English.


*«Μοσχολέμονο»* [mɔs.xɔ.ˈle.mɔ.nɔ] (neut.) in Greek


----------



## bearded

Olaszinhok said:


> What does _de linde_ mean?


Linde is also the German name of that tree (It. _tiglio_).  You probably heard of a famous avenue in Berlin called _Unter den Linden _(sotto i tigli).


----------



## Olaszinhok

Hallo Bearded.
Danke für deine Erklärung. Leider erinnere ich mich nicht an die berühnte Allee in Berlin “Unter den Linden”. Ich habe dieses Wort (die Linde) vorher nie gehört.


----------



## Red Arrow

The leaves of a lime tree are shaped like hearts, which is why it is considered the tree of love, which is maybe why linde is a feminine word unlike all other tree names?

Maybe I'm overthinking this... Other trees have similar leaf shapes.
There could be no reason at all.


----------



## Olaszinhok

Red Arrow :D said:


> which is maybe why linde is a feminine word unlike all other tree names?


I'm wondering how Flemish speakers can distiguish between a feminine and a masculine noun. Both grammatical genders use the same definite article (de), there is no particular ending for each gender and most  singular nouns are usually made plural Just by adding the endings - en or -s?! Am I wrong?


----------



## Red Arrow

Olaszinhok said:


> I'm wondering how Flemish speakers can distiguish between a feminine and a masculine noun. Both grammatical genders use the same definite article (de), there is no particular ending for each gender and most  singular nous are usually made plural by just adding the endings - en or -s?! Am I wrong?


I didn't know. I had to look all up in the dictionary 

In Belgian dialects, the articles do look different.
masculine: de(n) - ne(n)
feminine: de - een
neuter: het - e(en)

The N's between brackets are only pronounced before a vowel, H, B, D or T.
a car = nen auto
a man = ne man

Now I think about it, my grandfather would indeed say "ne kastanje" (a chestnut tree) and "een kastanje" (a chestnut).


----------



## Circunflejo

Dymn said:


> Also, nouns ending in _-or _are feminine in French (except for _amour_, the form itself is weird, should be _ameur_?), but masculine in Spanish



We could make a bit of an exception with Spanish calor because it can be used both as masculine and as femenine; depending on the speaker.



Red Arrow :D said:


> *feminine:* de linde



In Spanish is masculine: tilo.



merquiades said:


> the fruit trees are almost all masculine in Spanish



Some exceptions: higuera and palmera. Not trees but mandioca, parra and pasionaria are femenine too.


----------



## merquiades

Circunflejo said:


> Not trees but mandioca, parra and pasionaria are femenine too.


 Ok, never heard of these types of trees.

It's correct to say la calor?


----------



## Circunflejo

merquiades said:


> Ok, never heard of these types of trees.



As I said they aren't trees. Mandioca (also known as yuca) (English: Cassava) is a shrub. Parra (English: Grapevines) and Pasionaria (Latin: Passiflora Edulis; not sure of the popular name in English) are plants.



merquiades said:


> It's correct to say la calor?



The RAE doesn't like it (take a look at:http://lema.rae.es/dpd/?key=calor) but it's alive in some places as the RAE itself admits at: RAE on Twitter.


----------



## bearded

Olaszinhok said:


> Danke für deine Erklärung.


Hallo Olaszinhok
Gerne geschehen!
Hier findest Du ein Bild und eine kurze Beschreibung dieser Allee:  Unter den Linden - Berlin.


----------



## Olaszinhok

bearded said:


> Hallo Olaszinhok
> Gerne geschehen!
> Hier findest Du ein Bild und eine kurze Beschreibung dieser Allee: Unter den Linden - Berlin.[/Quote



Danke! Das foto ist ganz schön. Die Straße Unter den Linden ist die älteste Flaniermeile Berlins. Das ist wirklich sehr interessant!


----------



## Olaszinhok

Red Arrow :D said:


> In Belgian dialects, the articles do look different.
> masculine: de(n) - ne(n)
> feminine: de - een
> neuter: het - e(en)



Are those articles used in the written language as well or do you generally use a standardised form of Dutch in writing?


----------



## Red Arrow

Olaszinhok said:


> Are those articles used in the written language as well or do you generally use a standardised form of Dutch in writing?


They are never used in writing.

Since the 80s or 90s, there is a tendency for all parents to speak with just de/het/een/e* and jij/je/jou/jullie to their children. I don't know _any _parent who doesn't speak like that. You are just considered a bad parent if you don't. Say jij/je/jou to children and gij/ge to teenagers and adults.

As a result, people like me are very bad at guessing the proper gender. (The forum members at the Dutch forum refuse to believe this, but it's true. I guess they are too old to see what's going on) When their children get older, their parents start saying dialectal articles and pronouns, and then their children quickly change to gij/ge/u. The plural "gijle" is often not adopted. Gij is associated with being Flemish, it has some pride. Gijle... not so much. Most just keep saying jullie.

Short answer: I never see "ne" or "den" in writing, not even in chat.

(*yep, that's right, e is often kept, because people don't notice it to be different. e and een are both spelled "een")

EDIT: If you want to know, I switched to gij/ge/u in September or October 2009. My sister in September 2004.


----------



## Delvo

merquiades said:


> Ok, I see the typical Lime tree leaves.  I might see these trees a lot actually but confuse them with elm trees.


It's usually best to call it "linden". "Lime" normally refers to an entirely different tree which we have no other name for, similar to lemon & orange trees. I don't know how anybody got started calling linden "lime" anywhere, but I suppose it's because the names seemed similar, both were trees, and lots of English speakers at one time had heard the name "lime" for some kind of tree somewhere but weren't familiar with actual lime trees.



Red Arrow :D said:


> The leaves of a lime tree are shaped like hearts, which is why it is considered the tree of love, which is maybe why linde is a feminine word unlike all other tree names?
> 
> Maybe I'm overthinking this... Other trees have similar leaf shapes.
> There could be no reason at all.


Linden wood is not very useful for most things people would want to make from wood, but its flowers & fruits are used for making perfume & tea.

In English, the name Lindsey/Lindsay (linden by the lake/sea) was also a male name but has been shifting toward becoming a female name in the last century or two. That might be phonetic rather than meaning-based; the same thing has also happened to Ashley and Kelly, for example.


----------



## Frank78

Delvo said:


> It's usually best to call it "linden". "Lime" normally refers to an entirely different tree which we have no other name for, similar to lemon & orange trees. I don't know how anybody got started calling linden "lime" anywhere, but I suppose it's because the names seemed similar, both were trees, and lots of English speakers at one time had heard the name "lime" for some kind of tree somewhere but weren't familiar with actual lime trees.



Lime tree is only used in BE. In North America it's basswood or better it's the American sister of the European "linden".


----------



## merquiades

I've always heard Lime Tree, and never heard of Basswood, just Dogwood. Linden is vaguely familiar but maybe it's because of Unter den Linden.

@Red Arrow :D   All those articles and pronouns and switching from one to another sounds so complicated!  So you switched in September 2009, why would you bother?


----------



## Red Arrow

merquiades said:


> @Red Arrow :D   All those articles and pronouns and switching from one to another sounds so complicated!  So you switched in September 2009, why would you bother?


I turned 12 years old in April and went to high school in September. Suddenly everyone dropped the jij/je/jou and switched to gij/ge/u. Children, teachers, parents.
I remember being quite conservative (why change it?!) but you also don't want to feel left out.
If people in Lorraine all start saying splourf instead of tu/vous starting tomorrow, let's wait and see how long it will take for you to say "Avez-splourf un mouchoir s'il splourf plait?" 

I am going off-topic...


----------



## Olaszinhok

Red Arrow :D said:


> splourf



C'est quoi ça?  Is that a personal pronoun?! Really? Never have I heard it before.


----------



## Red Arrow

Olaszinhok said:


> C'est quoi ça?  Is that a personal pronoun?! Really? Never have I heard it before.


It was a joke!


----------



## Olaszinhok

I see, thanks. I ought to read some posts twice instead of answering back!


----------



## Olaszinhok

Circunflejo said:


> We could make a bit of an exception with Spanish calor because it can be used both as masculine and as femenine; depending on the speaker.



Hello, I'll ask my question here without opening a new thread, since you were speaking about this grammar feature in one of the previous posts, as quoted above. 
 I was reading a novel in Spanish by Eduardo Mendoza when I came accross this sentence:

_Hacía una calor intenso y húmedo_

Apparently, the author uses_ calor_ as feminine, therefore the indefinite article is _una_, but why doesn't he make any noun-adjective agreement betweetn _calor_ and  _intenso y húmedo? _Shouldn't that be _intensa y húmeda,_ feminine singular? This doesn't make any sense to me... Could you please explain  a little bit that "weird" choice of the author? Thank you very much in advance.


----------



## Circunflejo

Olaszinhok said:


> Shouldn't that be _intensa y húmeda,_ feminine singular?



Yes, it should. Therefore, as it's easier to make one mistake than two, I'd say he wanted to write _un_ but he wrote _una _(or there's a typo on the edition that you are reading).


----------



## Olaszinhok

Circunflejo said:


> Yes, it should. Therefore, as it's easier to make one mistake than two, I'd say he wanted to write _un_ but he wrote _una _(or there's a typo on the edition that you are reading).


Thanks. It is probably a typo, this makes sense.


----------

