# Branlette intellectuelle



## timpeac

I was interested very recently to learn this phrase in French. It was in relation to people who like to make themselves sound big and clever and go so far as to invent situations for themselves to show off how wonderful they are even where the comments are not relevant to the point under discussion - off-topic, I suppose, to use WR language! I had come across the concept in Spanish before, and of course since this is the French English forum I could not possibly mention that that phrase is "pajas mentales", and have long been trying to think of an English synonym.

The closest that occurs is "self-agrandisement". However, this sounds too refined, too clinical. A more direct translation such as "mental wanking" doesn't seem to ring true.

If I had to translate it I think I'd go for "intellectual onanism". How would you express this concept in English? If no ready phrase springs to mind how would you translate it?


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## la grive solitaire

The expression is new to me, but If I've understood it, how about _grandstanding_ ?


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## Monsieur Moose

There is, of course, *stroking one's ego *but I'm not sure if that is what you are looking for.


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## virtdave

how about _intellectual jerk-off_?
sounds cruder in English, though


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## timpeac

Monsieur Moose said:
			
		

> There is, of course, *stroking one's ego *but I'm not sure if that is what you are looking for.


Hi - yes I like that indeed, because of the imagery of "stroking" goes well with the original.

By the way - I'm not looking for anything in particular other than a neat translation. It's not for a specific piece of work, just me thinking out loud. I'd often thought how neat "pajas mentales" was, and so when I found out French had "branlette intellectuelle" it got me to thinking how we might best express that in English.


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## Benjy

Monsieur Moose said:
			
		

> There is, of course, *stroking one's ego  *but I'm not sure if that is what you are looking for.



that's brilliant if nothing because of the rather hilarious continuation of the same image (intention or not ).

edition: postes croisés avec tim


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## timpeac

virtdave said:
			
		

> how about _intellectual jerk-off_?
> sounds cruder in English, though


Does it? I thought that the original was quite rude, which was a lot of its charm mixing the rude with the high-brow - maybe a native speaker could confirm how rude "branlette intellectuelle" is.


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## Le Passant/Ze Passant.

Well I thought that branlette intellectuelle was (also?) when you speak hours on a subject that you think doesn't need so much reflexion. 
  Non...?


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## prêt-à-penser

Jumping to the conclusion that someone is doing something for egotistical purposes seems to be rude in its own right and seems to be an effective technique for controlling differing opinions. Probably because of this, one uses rude idioms such as "intellectual onanism" to describe it.

"circle jerk" is a good English expression for those engaged in a discussion meant to reinforce each others commonly accepted opinions. I'm not sure if this is what branlette intellectuelle refers to.


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## timpeac

Le Passant/Ze Passant. said:
			
		

> Well I thought that branlette intellectuelle was (also?) when you speak hours on a subject that you think doesn't need so much reflexion.
> Non...?


You mean that the branleur intellectuel gets his enjoyment simply from speaking a long time about something simple, as opposed to stretching out a subject and discussing it beyond the current need in order to give himself the opportunity to show off his knowledge to others? (I was under the impression that the meaning was the second of these).

"Enjoying the sound of one's own voice" is a translation that just sprung to mind - but it lacks the, hmmm, vivid immediacy of the French I think.


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## DearPrudence

timpeac said:
			
		

> You mean that the branleur intellectuel gets his enjoyment simply from thinking a long time about something simple, as opposed to stretching out a subject and discussing it beyond the current need in order to give himself the opportunity to show off his knowledge to others? (I was under the impression that the meaning was the second of these).


 
I would go with Timpeac's definition.
[A bit off-topic] Personally, an expression I also like is"*c'est de l'enculage de mouches*".


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## Le Passant/Ze Passant.

Salut Dear prudence: oui je disais que branlette intellectuelle c'est comme voir quelqu'un se casser la tete sur un sujet alors de notre point de vue, pour il n'y a pas de quoi reflechir autant. Je me trompe ou c'est bien cela?


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## Le Passant/Ze Passant.

Je ne savais pas que l'ego etait la motivation premmiere.
La branlette intellectuelle peut etre...involontaire de mon point de vue, comme discuter 30 ans de la vie privee de Mitterrand ou des relations politico economique ayant abouti a la chute de Bernard Tapis etc...


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## DearPrudence

Attends, on n'est pas en train d'enculer les mouches à débattre d'un sujet aussi futile?  
Peut-être "qu'enculer les mouches" n'a rien à voir avec l'égo alors que "branlette", forcément, c'est plutôt quand on a un égo surdimensionné. Peut-être que souvent c'est volontaire, pour montrer toute l'étendu de son savoir. Mais d'un autre côté je ne sais pas trop finalement ...


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## Cath.S.

Pour moi, enculer les mouches c'est débattre de points de détail apparemment sans importance, tandis que la masturbation intellectuelle consiste, je crois, à se faire mousser (pardonnez le jeu de mots, il était involontaire) de préférence en groupe, sur un sujet consensuel au sein de ce groupe, cet exercice permettant à chaque membre de se valoriser.


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## CARNESECCHI

Hello,
What about "Intellectual self-abuse" = at the same time intellectual masturbation, self deception and misusing one's intellect!


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## geve

N'oublions pas que dans "branlette", il y a avant tout l'idée de se faire plaisir... le moyen du plaisir étant l'intellect. Donc, une branlette intellectuelle, c'est raisonner pour le plaisir de raisonner (sous-entendu : sans que la réflexion n'ait un quelconque intérêt en dehors du plaisir immédiat). 
"Enjoying the sound of one's own voice" me paraît assez proche du sens, mais ça manque effectivement de couleur... 
"Stroking one's ego" a bien la bonne 'couleur' mais me paraît un peu éloigné de l'expression originale. 

A noter que l'on peut aussi dire "masturbation de cerveau". C'est beaucoup plus classe.  

Quant au niveau de crudeness... Je pense que le mot "branlette" est atténué par le "intellectuelle" derrière. Je crois avoir déjà utilisé "masturbation de cerveau" avec mes chefs (mais c'est le genre de chefs que l'on peut soupçonner ouvertement de pratiquer une telle activité sans se faire licencier sur le champ*  ) ; alors que je n'imagine pas utiliser devant eux le mot "masturbation" dans tout autre contexte.


* quand ils sont de bonne humeur, bien sûr.


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## Kelly B

"Self-abuse" sounds too much like masochism to me. "Intellectual masturbation" or maybe "intellectual self-gratification" would fit better, I think.

Edit: navel-gazing (nombrilisme) also comes to mind - it is not the same, but it has a similar flavor of self-absorption.


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## bernik

> You mean that the branleur intellectuel gets his enjoyment simply from
> 1) speaking a long time about something simple, as opposed to
> 2) stretching out a subject and discussing it beyond the current need in order to give himself the opportunity to show off his knowledge to others?


Yes, it is number 1.
I agree with Ze Passant.
It means that someone enjoys making intellectual fine points that do not really matter. Basically, it means the same as enculage de mouches.

branlette is slang for masturbation.
So, the natural translation would be intellectual masturbation.

Google results:
- 55,100 for "intellectual masturbation"
-   953 for "intellectual onanism"
-   50,300 for "masturbation intellectuelle"


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## timpeac

Well in that case, the appropriate translation, I would say, is "to have verbal diarrhea" (but to be clear this translates option 1 only - there is no indication there that you are speaking at length to show off, just that you don't know when to stop speaking).


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## Cath.S.

bernik said:
			
		

> Yes, it is number 1.
> I agree with Ze Passant.
> It means that someone enjoys making intellectual fine points that do not really matter. Basically, it means the same as enculage de mouches.


Le TLFi n'est pas d'accord avec cette définition ; voici ce qu'il y est dit :

*2. *Complaisance à traiter les mêmes thèmes (considérés comme inféconds) dans une discussion, une recherche intellectuelle ou artistique._Sus à la masturbation antifigurative _[_en peinture_] (_Les Lettres fr._, 25 janv. 1967, p.29, col. 1):
 
Entrent dans cette définition les notions de vide, de répétition et de fatuité.


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## Gil

Tiré du TLFi:


> 2. Complaisance à traiter les mêmes thèmes (considérés comme inféconds) dans une discussion, une recherche intellectuelle ou artistique. Sus à la masturbation antifigurative [en peinture] (Les Lettres fr., 25 janv. 1967, p.29, col. 1):
> 
> 2. Tu me parles de ton journal. Ne l'abandonne pas, je t'en supplie. Tape-le. Il faut lui donner une ligne générale. Tu es partie en ne croyant à rien qu'au soleil. Vers quoi iras-tu? Pas trop de masturbation intellectuelle.
> B. GROULT, Les Trois quarts du temps, Paris, Grasset, 1983, p. 147.


On ne mentionne pas d'intention de faire valoir sa personne (ou son intellect)
Edit:  Je viens de lire egueule.  Je cherche la fatuité dans la définition.


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## Cath.S.

Gil said:
			
		

> Tiré du TLFi:
> 
> On ne mentionne pas d'intention de faire valoir sa personne (ou son intellect)
> Edit: Je viens de lire egueule. Je cherche la fatuité dans la définition.


Complaisance => auto-satisfaction


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## geve

timpeac said:
			
		

> Well in that case, the appropriate translation, I would say, is "to have verbal diarrhea" (but to be clear this translates option 1 only - there is no indication there that you are speaking at length to show off, just that you don't know when to stop speaking).


Unless diarrhea is something highly pleasurable, I'm afraid there is still something missing indeed 



			
				egueule said:
			
		

> Entrent dans cette définition les notions de vide, de répétition et de fatuité.


Et de plaisir !! (je radote !) complaisance = délectation, contentement, satisfaction (TLFi itou)


I thought that "intellectual masturbation/self-gratification" as Kelly suggested, translated the idea well, don't you think?  There would still be a problem of level of language though, considering that "branlette" is slang and "masturbation" is not.


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## Cath.S.

> I thought that "intellectual masturbation/self-gratification" as Kelly suggested, translated the idea well, don't you think?


I agree, taking into account the difference of register you noted.
intellectual self-gratification translates masturbation intellectuelle, but how to branlette ?


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## timpeac

This is so interesting! So is there a cultural idea in French that people masturbate simply to pass the time, rather than to give themselves pleasure? Or is it that there is an idea of "pleasure" in "branlette intellectuelle" but that it comes from simply talking at length rather than gaining any approbation _from others_ from what you say?
Anglophones - a phrase like "intellectual masturbation/onanism" does that not make you think (like it does me) of both gaining pleasure from the act of expounding your views at length but also from having someone else notice and agree with those views?


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## geve

egueule said:
			
		

> I agree, taking into account the difference of register you noted.
> intellectual self-gratification translates masturbation intellectuelle, but how to branlette ?


Isn't there a slang word for "masturbation" in English?


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## timpeac

geve said:
			
		

> I thought that "intellectual masturbation/self-gratification" as Kelly suggested, translated the idea well, don't you think?


No, or rather maybe. We need to be sure of exactly what we mean by "branlette intellectuelle" before the translation. What you think as a Frenchwoman of what an Englishman means by "intellectual masturbation" is very likely to be what you mean as a Frenchwoman by "branlette intellectuelle" because of the parity of the terms. That's no personal criticism - and indeed why I made my initial assumption of what the French must mean based on what I would guess an Englishman would mean by "intellectual wanking". It is one of the wonders of language that apparently identical phrases in very similar languages (as are French and English whether we like to admit it or not) can have very different effects on native speakers. Things that work and are "obvious" to one group are utterly mystifying to the other, or sound crass etc.


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## Cath.S.

geve said:
			
		

> Isn't there a slang word for "masturbation" in English?


_Jerk off_ was already suggested; how about _intellectual wank_?


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## geve

timpeac said:
			
		

> This is so interesting! So is there a cultural idea in French that people masturbate simply to pass the time, rather than to give themselves pleasure?


ROFL  
I have been insisting on pleasure, indeed. 
I also think that part of the pleasure of the_ masturbation intellectuelle_ comes from the fact that it is done in group. For the intellect is more demanding than the body and needs a public to get satisfied...


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## prêt-à-penser

If a "branlette intellectuelle" is a group of people getting together to discuss or reinforce truisms and thus give themselves an intellectual ego boost then I believe it equates best in English to a "circle jerk"


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## timpeac

geve said:
			
		

> ROFL
> I have been insisting on pleasure, indeed.
> I also think that part of the pleasure of the_ masturbation intellectuelle_ comes from the fact that it is done in group. For the intellect is more demanding than the body and needs a public to get satisfied...


Well that would certainly be my assumption. Masturbation may often be a pleasurable and solitary affair, but speaking at great lengths to an empty room - I find it hard to imagine how that could be pleasurable to anyone but a masochist. Surely we all, or the vast majority of us, are always looking for approbation from our peers?



			
				prêt-à-penser said:
			
		

> If a "branlette intellectuelle" is a group of people getting together to discuss or reinforce truisms and thus give themselves an intellectual ego boost then I believe it equates best in English to a "circle jerk"


I think that "circle jerk" is a great translation where you have more than one "branleur intellectuel". The trouble is that in French you can have one on their own, and then "circle jerk" can't work.


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## prêt-à-penser

timpeac said:
			
		

> I think that "circle jerk" is a great translation where you have more than one "branleur intellectuel". The trouble is that in French you can have one on their own, and then "circle jerk" can't work.



Doesn't branlette assume a group discussion?


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## geve

timpeac said:
			
		

> No, or rather maybe. We need to be sure of exactly what we mean by "branlette intellectuelle" before the translation. What you think as a Frenchwoman of what an Englishman means by "intellectual masturbation" is very likely to be what you mean as a Frenchwoman by "branlette intellectuelle" because of the parity of the terms. That's no personal criticism - and indeed why I made my initial assumption of what the French must mean based on what I would guess an Englishman would mean by "intellectual wanking". It is one of the wonders of language that apparently identical phrases in very similar languages (as are French and English whether we like to admit it or not) can have very different effects on native speakers. Things that work and are "obvious" to one group are utterly mystifying to the other, or sound crass etc.


And this thread seems to show that the same phrase in French can have different effects on native French speakers...

About the importance of the group in the pleasure, I would just like to say that the expression as I use it, doesn't only apply to verbal diarrhea. I could talk about _branlette intellectuelle_ while reading a report sent by someone for instance. Of course, the person who wrote the report intended to be read (hence to have a public). --edit: which is what egueule brilliantly demonstrated in post #35  and I soooo very agree with you all, man, this is such a blast!


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## timpeac

geve said:
			
		

> And this thread seems to show that the same phrase in French can have different effects on native French speakers...
> 
> About the importance of the group in the pleasure, I would just like to say that the expression as I use it, doesn't only apply to verbal diarrhea. I could talk about _branlette intellectuelle_ while reading a report sent by someone for instance. Of course, the person who wrote the report intended to be read (hence to have a public). --edit: which is what egueule brilliantly demonstrated in post #35  and I soooo very agree with you all, man, this is such a blast!


Ah yes - I suggested "verbal diarrhea" only as a translation of someone who talks and talks and talks and talks. If you read the novels of many "celebrated" novellists you get the impression often, or at least I do, that they are writing on a certain topic or in a certain style "to show off".

Is it fair to say that "branlettes intellectuelles" refer to discourses, spoken or written, that the writer has at least given himself pleasure in making (and that he thinks will almost certainly gain approbation from others)? In other words he has written a poem and as he reads it out to a crowd who didn't even ask to be there he is thinking even as he reads "ah that rhyme is lovely! Oh that literary reference is so clever!"?


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## geve

timpeac said:
			
		

> Ah yes - I suggested "verbal diarrhea" only as a translation of someone who talks and talks and talks and talks. If you read the novels of many "celebrated" novellists you get the impression often, or at least I do, that they are writing on a certain topic or in a certain style "to show off".
> 
> Is it fair to say that "branlettes intellectuelles" refer to discourses, spoken or written, that the writer has at least given himself pleasure in making (and that he thinks will almost certainly gain approbation from others)? In other words he has written a poem and as he reads it out to a crowd who didn't even ask to be there he is thinking even as he reads "ah that rhyme is lovely! Oh that literary reference is so clever!"?


I would say that the greatest part of the pleasure comes while performing the act (of talking, writing... racking one's brain endlessly/aimlessly). But yes, I guess the _branlette intellectuelle_ is different from the regular _branlette_ in that you can come back to it and still find it pleasurable afterwards.


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## bernik

_"On ne mentionne pas d'intention de faire valoir sa personne (ou son intellect)"_

Dans l'exemple donné ici, si je comprends bien, B. Groult parle de quelqu'un qui dépense toute son énergie dans des préoccupations intellectuelles et qui a tendance à s'y enliser, alors qu'il devrait se tourner un peu plus vers l'action et la pratique, et commencer à écrire son livre.
C'est à dire que quand on parle de masturbation intellectuelle, on pense à des gens qui sont un peu maniaques, et qui se complaisent dans la réflexion pure sans trop se soucier des questions pratiques. C'est un comportement qui peut procurer du plaisir au début, mais qui conduit vite au mal de crâne. En tout cas, ce n'est pas la même chose que d'être bavard.

A la rigueur, on pourrait aussi parler de masturbation intellectuelle à propos des exercices de style où on prend un sujet bidon qui ne nous intéresse pas vraiment, et où on s'en sert comme prétexte à bavarder dans le vide, comme si on était en train d'écrire une dissertation de français. Un peu comme on ferait des mots croisés.


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## geve

Oui, on produit du jus de cerveau, quoi !
Il me semble qu'on est tous d'accord, en fait. On a simplement eu du mal à traduire en mots ce qu'évoque l'expression, bien qu'elle soit en fin de compte assez littérale : on se prend le cerveau et on se le secoue un bon coup, de façon tout à fait stérile, juste parce que c'est bon... la notion de fatuité pouvant venir de la perception de l'acte par une personne extérieure. 
Alors, traduction anglaise littérale (intellectual wank, intellectual jerk-off...), or not? 


I hope it was as good for you as it was for me. I love you guys!


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## GenJen54

Mental Masturbation Without Orgasm?

Afterall, surely someone who continues to go on and on and on with his or her viewpoint, never reaching a conclusion, only does it for the pure self-gratification of hearing one's words spoken, and doesn't derive any pleasure in finishing the task.


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## virtdave

Wank : BE
Jerk-off : AE
and of course _branlette_ : Fr.

Lots of amusing suggestions above....


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## Ludito

I would really say "intellectual jerk off" or "intellectual wank". I think that "branlette" is quite rude , so why not use the same type of vocabulary in English.


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## carolineR

No offence, Bernik, but I also believe, like Timpeac, "branlette intellectuelle" is number 2 : stretching out a subject and discussing it beyond the current need in order to give himself the opportunity to show off his knowledge to others.
"enculage de mouches", is what egueule said : c'est débattre de points de détail apparemment sans importance. 
Now "intellectual masturbation" seems to stick to the french phrase, doesn't it ? But "stroking one's ego" sounds perfect, too.


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## sound shift

How about good old "waffle" (exclusive to BE?) or
"going round the sun to meet the moon"?


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## KaRiNe_Fr

And why not keeping the word "branlette" and saying "this is intellectual _branlette,_ as French say"? 
How would it sound in English? Maybe not that nice... I don't know! (I'm going to acapela site to hear this...)


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## KittyCatty

I like "intellectual self-gratification" or "Intellectual self-satisfaction"- what do you think? 
But what's wrong with "blowing your own trumpet (intellectually)"? 
I don't feel like masturbation, wanking or jerk-off etc is right here. Sure, it might translate that way, but I don't like it. It sounds and looks so much uglier than Branlette intellectuelle, and surely it should be pleasurable to say and see, eh geve?


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## sound shift

Now that I've scan-read all the posts I reckon "self-indulgent pseudo-intellectualising" covers it pretty well.


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## badgrammar

Oh, goodness, I'm a little late, but it is called - and has long been called - "mental masturbation".  Not intellectual, but mental...


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## hHold

My belated contribution:
you must know Lord Byron used the term mental masturbation.
I can't exactly recall in what context but it may well have been in reference to Shelley whom Byron disliked.


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## DazednConfused

I have heard the phrase "masturbating their egos" on more than one occasion, and I would suggest this is the most faithful translation of the above. 

It is a development on the (more commonly used) "massaging their egos."


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