# کلبُ دار نابح



## Qureshpor

Can کلبُ دار نابح mean both:

1) A barking house-dog

and 

2) A house dog is barking (a domestic dog as opposed to a street-dog)?


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## shafaq

We may see two opinions here which one will say
- Yes for the number 1 and No for the number 2.  Because a Mubteda' has to be Ma'rifa where   کلبُ isn't (even if it is a Mudhaf).

and a second one will say
- Yes for the number *1 and* 2! Because کلبُ is Ma'rifa due to its being as Mudhaf.

Edit: Please note that to avoid misunderstanding; I added missing "*1 and* " in the last line.


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## Qureshpor

Thank you @shafaq for your explanation.


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## Abbe

shafaq said:


> and a second one will say
> - Yes for the number *1 and* 2! Because کلبُ is Ma'rifa due to its being as Mudhaf



Just a question, who says that the idafa to a nakira makes it definite?


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## shafaq

Abbe said:


> Just a question, who says that the idafa to a nakira makes it definite?


Let's just wait and see who will say this .


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## Mahaodeh

shafaq said:


> - Yes for the number 1 and No for the number 2. Because a Mubteda' has to be Ma'rifa where کلبُ isn't (even if it is a Mudhaf).


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## Abbe

It is allowed to have an indefinite mubtada if it's mudaf (even if the mudaf ilayhi is not definite) or if it's followed by an adjective.


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## Qureshpor

Mahaodeh said:


>


Examples of indefinite mubtada.

 عَمَلُ بِرٍّ يَزِينُ and عَدْلُ ساعةٍ خيرٌ من عبادةِ ألفِ شهرٍ


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## Qureshpor

If کلبُ دار نابح can not mean "A house-dog is barking", can this structure be inverted in the format below to provide the meaning "A house-dog is barking"?

نابح کلب دار 

I am asking this, because I remember coming across ناقص قطعۃ for which the meaning was "A piece is missing".


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## Mahaodeh

Qureshpor said:


> عَمَلُ بِرٍّ يَزِينُ and عَدْلُ ساعةٍ خيرٌ من عبادةِ ألفِ شهرٍ


 good point, I missed these! 



Qureshpor said:


> نابح کلب دار


Maybe, but I don't think so.



Qureshpor said:


> I am asking this, because I remember coming across ناقص قطعۃ for which the meaning was "A piece is missing".



This sound excessively colloquial to me. I can see it in MSA meaning "it's missing a piece" or "minus a piece" and I can't see it as the beginning of the sentence. I don't want to just say definitely because I might have forgotten something like I did in the first time .


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## Qureshpor

Mahaodeh said:


> This sound excessively colloquial to me. I can see it in MSA meaning "it's missing a piece" or "minus a piece" and I can't see it as the beginning of the sentence. I don't want to just say definitely because I might have forgotten something like I did in the first time .


I think there are examples of participles (فاعل and مفعول) used as starting points in sentences.

مکرِم للضیف عمل حسن Honouring the guest is a good deed.

مطلوب مھندس  للعمل فی الکویت An engineer is required to work in Kuwait.

Returning back to my original enquiry. If عَدْلُ ساعةٍ خيرٌ من عبادةِ ألفِ شهرٍ is acceptable, then why not...

کلبُ دار نابح A house dog is barking (?)


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## Mahaodeh

Qureshpor said:


> then why not...
> 
> کلبُ دار نابح A house dog is barking (?)



I don't know, I can't say. I just feel that it's an incomplete sentence. But then again, I might be wrong.


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## Ibn Nacer

Un exemple similaire dans un autre fil à partir du message #13...
Le mubtada' peut être indéfini : Begin a sentence with indefinite noun+adjective


Abbe said:


> Just a question, who says that the idafa to a nakira makes it definite?


Certains le croient et le disent même dans des livres (regardez par exemple la seconde partie du message #19) mais la majorité des références disent qu'il n'est pas défini mais spécifié/particularisé (مُخَصَّص).
See #17


shafaq said:


> and a second one will say
> - Yes for the number *1 and* 2! Because کلبُ is Ma'rifa due to its being as Mudhaf.


Si کلب était défini alors le mot نابح ne pourrait pas être un adjectif de کلب car le mot نابح est indéfini.


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## Qureshpor

Would  ناقص قطعة "A piece is missing" and مطلوب مھندس "An enginner is required" 

be considered acceptable، grammatically speaking? These are sentences that have  اسم فاعل  and اسم مفعول as مبتدأ but with a verbal force.


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## Ibn Nacer

Salut,

En principe le mubtada' doit être défini (معرفة) ou spécifié/particularisé (مُخَصَّص) mais il existe peut-être une règle ou une exception que je ne connais pas, c'est peut-être possible dans certains contextes ...


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## Qureshpor

^ Apologies but I do not know French.


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## Ibn Nacer

Qureshpor said:


> Would  ناقص قطعة "A piece is missing" and مطلوب مھندس "An enginner is required"
> 
> be considered acceptable، grammatically speaking? These are sentences that have  اسم فاعل  and اسم مفعول as مبتدأ but with a verbal force.


Finally, I may have misunderstood your question: Are you asking if the words مطلوب|ناقص are mubtada' and if the words مھندس|قطعة are khabar (predicates) ?


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## Qureshpor

Ibn Nacer said:


> Finally, I may have misunderstood your question: Are you asking if the words مطلوب|ناقص are mubtada' and if the words مھندس|قطعة are khabar (predicates) ?


Yes, this is what I think is happening.

 ناقص قطعة A piece is missing. 

مطلوب مھندس An enginner is required

I can't remember for sure but I think these came from "Teach Yourself Arabic" by Jack Smart


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