# Курица - не птица, Польша - не заграница



## Thomas1

Привет всем,

"Курица - не птица, Польша - не заграница"
Какие значение етой поговорки? У ней есть что-нибудь что является общим с "Курица не птица, женщина не человек"?


Заранее спасибо,
Том


PS: Excuse me my poor Russian, in case you don't understand me: I'd like to know the meaning of the saying from the title and if it's somehow related to the other one I gave.


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## Maroseika

Thomas1 said:


> Привет всем,
> 
> "Курица - не птица, Польша - не заграница"
> Какие значение етой поговорки? У ней есть что-нибудь что является общим с "Курица не птица, женщина не человек"?
> 
> 
> Заранее спасибо,
> Том
> 
> 
> PS: Excuse me my poor Russian, in case you don't understand me: I'd like to know the meaning of the saying from the title and if it's somehow related to the other one I gave.


 
In epoch of the USSR one could not visit any "western" country (even as a tourist) before he visits one of the socialist states. Only if he behaved well, he could hope to get permission in the future to visit capitalist country.
Though even socialist countries were not so easily reachable, but anyway much easier than capitalist. But more often this saying was applied to Bulgaria.
And in this sense, yes, any socialist country was not a "full-value" country like a hen is not a "full-value" bird (because cannot fly), and like woman is not "full-value" human being (in the terms of this proverb).


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## Ptak

Thomas1 said:


> "Курица - не птица, Польша - не заграница"
> Какие значение *э*той поговорки? У не*ё* есть что-нибудь*,* что является общим с "Курица не птица, женщина не человек"?


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## Anatoli

To Thomas1:

Don't feel offended for Poland, the same saying was used for a few countries, where one could get in easier than into any country behind the Iron Curtain.


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## dima_david

Actually, I'd never heard Poland used in this saying. The more traditional version is "Курица не птица, _Болгария_ не заграница". Bulgaria was the country most friendly to the USSR, the most "willingly" socialist, and the Golden Sands resort (Золотые пески) was the only place in the world outside of USSR that an ordinary Soviet citizen could actually get a permission to visit "on his own", without special connections or extraordinary achievements. Poland was much much more tricky, especially in the late 70s-early 80s, when everybody was whispering about the possibility of another Hungary-56 or Prague-68.


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## Anatoli

I heard about Mongolia more than about Poland or Bulgaria.


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## Ptak

Hm, by the way, I'd never heard "Курица - не птица, *Польша* - не заграница" either. I only know the variant "Курица не птица, _Болгария_ не заграница".


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## Etcetera

I've only heard about Bulgaria in this context.
But, as Thomas is from Poland, naturally he had more chances to hear about his country.


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## Crescent

Etcetera said:


> I've only heard about Bulgaria in this context.
> But, as Thomas is from Poland, naturally he had more chances to hear about his country.



I hace an idea! Perhaps this is ''авторский неологизм''??  ( thank you very much, Etcetera, for the new word! I couldn't even suspect that it might be so useful once!)
In other words, that even though the saying which we have all heard off, using ''Bulgaria'' is indeed the original, the author of this one, using ''Poland'' might have especially invented this phrase for a special purpose.
Tom, may I ask - where did you get this saying from? What is the soucre and (if there is any) context? 

When I heard someone say that saying (using Bulgaria) I always assumed that what it meant was that because of the USSR being united at the time, citizens from any country which was part of the USSR could travel from one country to the other, and it didn't really count as ''abroad'' because the USSR was like one big united country...
I am not however sure of how far my version is accurate..


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## Jana337

Crescent said:


> When I heard someone say that saying (using Bulgaria) I always assumed that what it meant was that because of the USSR being united at the time, citizens from any country which was part of the USSR could travel from one country to the other, and it didn't really count as ''abroad'' because the USSR was like one big united country...
> I am not however sure of how far my version is accurate..


If I understand you correctly, you urgently need a history and geography refresher. 
Bulgaria and other countries west of Ukraine (roughly) have never been a part of the USSR, although the USSR acted as if. 
The USSR and the Soviet bloc are two different concepts.


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## cyanista

Well, in Belarus, the version with Польша was very widespread (perhaps understandably - consult a map if necessary  ). Actually, I only ever heard it used this way. So this thread was sort of a revelation to me.


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## Crescent

Jana337 said:


> If I understand you correctly, you urgently need a history and geography refresher.
> Bulgaria and other countries west of Ukraine (roughly) have never been a part of the USSR, although the USSR acted as if.
> The USSR and the Soviet bloc are two different concepts.



Ooops...

Well that obviously shows my brilliant geography and history skills, doesn't it?
Thanks, Jana, for the history and geography refreshments/lessons!  Hopefully, I will refrain from making stupid mistakes like that in the future, when talking to really smart people, like you guys, who, judging by my geography skills, probably think I grew up on a desert island in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean. 
But this is also bad news, because that means all my wonderful theories (which I have honestly had faith in up until now!) are proven wrong! So how do we explain why Bulgaria is not the ''заграница?''


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## Maroseika

Crescent said:


> So how do we explain why Bulgaria is not the ''заграница?''


Just because (as somebody has already explained) this country was the easiest one to visit for a Soviet citizen. Simple as that.


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## Anatoli

Now that countries like Ukraine, Belarus, etc. are officially "abroad", the expression is applied to them as well. I heard "Украина не заграница" many times also, meaning well, yes, it is but a foreign country should very different from a former Soviet citizen's point of view.

It doesn't have to be in the former Soviet block. A friend of mine said the comment about Turkey - he travelled there many times. It was somewhat negative but he meant that Turkey was too close to Russia and it's easy to come across a countryman there and even get by by speaking only Russian in some cases.


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## Etcetera

Maroseika said:


> Just because (as somebody has already explained) this country was the easiest one to visit for a Soviet citizen. Simple as that.


And as it was a Slavic country and a Socialist one, it wasn't as different to the USSR countries as France and West Germany, for example.


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## cajzl

It seems that Jana need a tiny history refresher, too. 

Bulgaria was the most loyal satellite of the Soviet Union. Zhivkov's main policy was to follow the Soviet model. He often stated that loyalty to the Soviet Union was the test of a Bulgarian's patriotism. He pursued increasing integration with the Soviet economy. Even further, *Todor Zhivkov once suggested to Brezhnev that Bulgaria become the U.S.S.R.'s 16th republic.* It was a big difference between Bulgaria and Poland.


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## cyanista

cajzl said:


> It seems that Jana need a tiny history refresher, too.
> 
> Bulgaria was the most loyal satellite of the Soviet Union. Zhivkov's main policy was to follow the Soviet model. He often stated that loyalty to the Soviet Union was the test of a Bulgarian's patriotism. He pursued increasing integration with the Soviet economy. Even further, *Todor Zhivkov once suggested to Brezhnev that Bulgaria become the U.S.S.R.'s 16th republic.* It was a big difference between Bulgaria and Poland.



It certainly seems that yours and Jana's words don't contradict each other.


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## Jana337

cajzl said:


> It seems that Jana need a tiny history refresher, too.


Surely can't hurt. 


> Bulgaria was the most loyal satellite of the Soviet Union. Zhivkov's main policy was to follow the Soviet model. He often stated that loyalty to the Soviet Union was the test of a Bulgarian's patriotism. He pursued increasing integration with the Soviet economy. Even further, *Todor Zhivkov once suggested to Brezhnev that Bulgaria become the U.S.S.R.'s 16th republic.* It was a big difference between Bulgaria and Poland.


So what? It never happened. A de facto guberniya can still have an internationally recognized frontier with the empire.


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## cajzl

I wanted to say that Bulgaria was an independent state _de iure_, but the Soviet republic _de facto_.

And, of course, I wanted to give a support to Crescent. Maybe she heard about the Zhivkov's proposal and thought that it was signed, sealed and delivered.


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## Maroseika

cajzl said:


> I wanted to say that Bulgaria was an independent state _de iure_, but the Soviet republic _de facto_.
> 
> And, of course, I wanted to give a support to Crescent. Maybe she heard about the Zhivkov's proposal and thought that it was signed, sealed and delivered.


Could you please specify why exactly Bulgaria was the Soviet republic _de facto_ to a greater extent than any other member of Warsaw Treaty and Mongolia?


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## Thomas1

Thank you very much for the info.  

I have one more question:
Do you still hear this saying (whichever country is referred to) nowadays?


Tom


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## Maroseika

Thomas1 said:


> Thank you very much for the info.
> 
> I have one more question:
> Do you still hear this saying (whichever country is referred to) nowadays?
> 
> 
> Tom


Maybe about Turkey - too many Russians there are.


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## cajzl

> Could you please specify why exactly Bulgaria was the Soviet republic _de facto_ to a greater extent than any other member of Warsaw Treaty and Mongolia?


I must admit that I know nothing about Mongolia (never been there). Anyway the thread is mainly about Poland and Bulgaria.

Ergo, Todor Zhivkov (aka Tato) was the leader of Bulgaria for 35 years. He dreamed that Bulgaria will be the Soviet republic one time. Most likely Jaruzelski did not have such dream.

Besides:

- the Bulgarian economy strongly oriented to the USSR
- the Bulgarians spoke Russian times better than an average Pole or Czech (do not mention the Hungarians and DDRians)
- no such events like in Poland 1980, Hungary 1956, Czechoslovakia 1968

Only one Brezhnev's and Zhivkov's political decision separated Bulgaria from becoming the 16th Soviet republic.

So the saying is rather usable for Bulgaria than Poland (as already stated by others).


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## scriptum

Thomas1 said:


> Thank you very much for the info.
> 
> I have one more question:
> Do you still hear this saying (whichever country is referred to) nowadays?


 
Look it up in the Google. The phrase is said about every country in the world except Albania.


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## Maroseika

> So the saying is rather usable for Bulgaria than Poland (as already stated by others).


I would willingly agree with your arguments, cajzl, but for one problem: this popular saying was thought up and used by those who had absolutely no idea on how well (in respect with DDRians)Bulgarians knew Russian, on how closely Bulgarian economy depended on the USSR's and what exactly plans made comrade Zhivkov regarding his state.
The only thing those people knew very well was that visiting Bulgaria was much easier than any other socialist country, nothing else.


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## Kolan

Anatoli said:


> I heard about Mongolia more than about Poland or Bulgaria.


+1
I can confirm that Mongolia was used in this saying as well as Bulgaria. Though, it was not the same pleasure to visit these different countries.

Unlike Bulgaria, Mongolia is immediate neighbor of Russian Federation and the Mongolia's south border (with China) used to be protected by Soviet guards, which makes even more sense.


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## Kriviq

cajzl said:


> It seems that Jana need a tiny history refresher, too.
> 
> Bulgaria was the most loyal satellite of the Soviet Union. Zhivkov's main policy was to follow the Soviet model. He often stated that loyalty to the Soviet Union was the test of a Bulgarian's patriotism. He pursued increasing integration with the Soviet economy. Even further, *Todor Zhivkov once suggested to Brezhnev that Bulgaria become the U.S.S.R.'s 16th republic.* It was a big difference between Bulgaria and Poland.



Zhivkov was a cunning peasant Yeah, he used to say these things, and each time he  said  them,  he got  loads  of free  supplies.

As for following the Soviet model, it`s not true - these were only words. The Bulgarian model was much different - I can tell you that China followed it.


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## Etcetera

Thomas1 said:


> I have one more question:
> Do you still hear this saying (whichever country is referred to) nowadays?


I, no.


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## AndrzejR

20 years ago, for me this saying was a proof of imperialism of the Soviet Union. Now I see I was wrong.


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