# l.l [l·l] and ll



## Outsider

Salut, Catalan speakers!

Written Catalan has the unusual digraph _l.l_. According to Internet sources, it's pronounced as a long vowel in some dialects, but it is indistinguishable from _ll_ in other dialects of Catalan. I'd like to know if you pronounce _ll_ and _l.l_ differently or not, and what you know about how other native speakers pronounce this digraph in your region.

My thanks.


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## valerie

As far as I know, in the normative pronounciation of catalan, l.l is very different from ll
l.l is pronounce like an long l, as in 'col.legi' or 'sol.licitud' for example 
ll seems to me similar to the spanish ll sound, for example in consell, llei.


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## Outsider

Thank you for replying. Your post makes me want to raise another question. 
I know that in French the digraph _ll_ is sometimes read as _y_, and other times as a normal _l_. I'm wondering whether there's any relation between the pronunciation of this digraph in French and the pronunciation of _ll/l.l_ in Catalan. Can anyone who speaks the two languages comment on this?


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## Samaruc

Hi everybody,

You are right, Valérie, that's how “ll” and “l·l” sound.

The “ll” digraph is pronounced like Portuguese “lh” or Spanish “ll” or Italian “gli”... It can appear anywhere in a word and it always maintains its sound (it never sounds like “l”).

Some examples:

Lloc (place).
Pollastre (chicken).
Coll (neck).
Folls (insanes).
Bellreguard (that's the name of a village).


The “l·l” digraph is called “ela geminada” and the dot in the middle is called “punt volat” (floating point). This “punt volat” simply indicates that both “l”s must be pronounced separately, that is, you must pronounce two consecutive “l”s, without any vowel in the middle. It's exactly the same as the Italian “ll”.

Some examples:

Col·laborar (to collaborate).
Aquarel·la (watercolour)

In colloquial Catalan almost nobody pronounces the “l·l” as a double “l”, but as a simple “l”. In formal Catalan you should pronounce two “l”s when you find a “l·l”.


I hope it helps.


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## Roi Marphille

óla Outsider and other friends, 

I like this "ela geminada"! is indeed an odd digraph, isn't it?

I've been told that it is only used in Catalan language. I think it was invented by Pompeu Fabra when he first set the written rules about 80 years ago but I'm not sure. 
Is anyone around with more information?
Salutacions, 
Roi


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## jmx

Samaruc said:
			
		

> The “l·l” digraph is called “ela geminada” and the dot in the middle is called “punt volat” (floating point). This “punt volat” simply indicates that both “l”s must be pronounced separately, that is, you must pronounce two consecutive “l”s, without any vowel in the middle. It's exactly the same as the Italian “ll”.
> 
> Some examples:
> 
> Col·laborar (to collaborate).
> Aquarel·la (watercolour)
> 
> In colloquial Catalan almost nobody pronounces the “l·l” as a double “l”, but as a simple “l”. In formal Catalan you should pronounce two “l”s when you find a “l·l”.


I will add 2 things :

- Notice that the "ela geminada" is written l·l, *not* l.l
  In the regular spanish keyboards this special sign "·" appears on top of the "3" key.

- The double sound of "l·l" still exists in the Balearic Islands, where it sounds quite distinctly in words such as "al·lot" and "al·lota" ('boy' and 'girl').


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## Fernando

Just a doubt. I understand when saying "Spanish ll" is a sound similar to "ly" (more or less the "traditional" "ll" pronunciation) rather than the usual "y".

l·l Wow! It works. Thank you, jmartins.


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## Roi Marphille

Fernando said:
			
		

> Just a doubt. I understand when saying "Spanish ll" is a sound similar to "ly" (more or less the "traditional" "ll" pronunciation) rather than the usual "y".


yep, I'd say that. 
Well, actually the sound of "ll" is the same in Catalan and Castilian..but, some people have this _yeísmo_ thing. Specially in many Spanish dialects or accents. 
Some Catalan speakers have _yeísmo_ too, specially in Barcelona-area.


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## Fernando

Thank you. As you possibly know, "yeísmo" is nowadays the rule rather than the exception. I am a yeísta too.


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## Laia

Yes, (we) people of Barcelona, (_lovingly_ called "pixapins", "camacus" and "cobis") usually have _yeísmo_, but sometimes only with Spanish. In fact, when I speak in Spanish I have yeísmo, but not in Catalan (well... sometimes, some words). 
jejejeje


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## Roi Marphille

Laia said:
			
		

> Yes, (we) people of Barcelona, (_lovingly_ called "pixapins", "camacus" and "cobis") usually have _yeísmo_, but sometimes only with Spanish. In fact, when I speak in Spanish I have yeísmo, but not in Catalan (well... sometimes, some words).
> jejejeje


I am _yeísta_ only with "vermell" I think, and not always. I don't know why. But I'm not a Barcelonian in origin...I'm from the couuuuntry


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## kalina

Fernando said:
			
		

> Thank you. As you possibly know, "yeísmo" is nowadays the rule rather than the exception. I am a yeísta too.


Hi! I'm relatively new to studying Catalan, can someone explain what this word is? (yeísmo)
I love learning about Spain/Catalunya.

adeu!


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## Laia

kalina said:
			
		

> Hi! I'm relatively new to studying Catalan, can someone explain what this word is? (yeísmo)
> I love learning about Spain/Catalunya.
> 
> adeu!


 
Hola,

_yeísmo_ means to pronunce "ll" with "y" sound... really hard to explain by words :s 
Excuse me for my awful explanation! jajaja 

adéu!


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## kalina

Laia said:
			
		

> Hola,
> 
> _yeísmo_ means to pronunce "ll" with "y" sound... really hard to explain by words :s
> Excuse me for my awful explanation! jajaja
> 
> adéu!


I see.. I have always thought that the "ll" is normally pronounced as "y" (in Spanish). I don't remember the Catalan pronounciation rules - they are very different from Castellano. 

Gràcies!


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## Roi Marphille

kalina said:
			
		

> I see.. I have always thought that the "ll" is normally pronounced as "y" (in Spanish). I don't remember the Catalan pronounciation rules - they are very different from Castellano.
> 
> Gràcies!


hi Kalina, 
For some Spanish-speaking people and foreigners is impossible to pronounce the "ll". You have to put your tongue in a very determinated way, squeezing it to the palate.
You may find a Catalan person to teach it to you but the success is not guaranteed. I know it because I unsuccessfully tried many times to teach it to my "guiri" (foreigner) friends. 
good luck!

Roi


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## Outsider

kalina said:
			
		

> I see.. I have always thought that the "ll" is normally pronounced as "y" (in Spanish). I don't remember the Catalan pronounciation rules - they are very different from Castellano.


It is indeed normally pronounced "y" in Spanish, but some people pronounce it as a palatal lateral approximant, and this was the original pronunciation. The pronunciation of _ll_ as "y" in Spanish is called "yeísmo"; more on this phenomenon here.
In Catalan, however, the palatal lateral approximant is the normal pronunciation of _ll_.


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## Roi Marphille

As a curiosity, there is this University in Barcelona named after the Catalan writer, alchemist and philopher Ramon Llull. 
Some who attend to this University can not pronounce correctly the name of itself!   ja ja ja


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## Laia

Roi Marphille said:
			
		

> As a curiosity, there is this University in Barcelona named after the Catalan writer, alchemist and philopher Ramon Llull.
> Some who attend to this University can not pronounce correctly the name of itself!  ja ja ja


 
What about the humorist... la LLOLL!!!


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## Outsider

Oops, I made an embarassing mistake above!

What I actually meant to say in the first post was:



			
				Outsider said:
			
		

> Salut, Catalan speakers!
> 
> Written Catalan has the unusual digraph _l.l_. According to Internet sources, it's pronounced as a long vowel in some dialects, but it is indistinguishable from _l_ in other dialects of Catalan. I'd like to know if you pronounce _l_ and _l.l_ differently or not, and what you know about how other native speakers pronounce this digraph in your region.
> 
> My thanks.


My apologies. I only noticed this now.


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## Roi Marphille

Laia said:
			
		

> What about the humorist... la LLOLL!!!


you call her humorist? she scares me to death


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## valerie

Outsider said:
			
		

> Thank you for replying. Your post makes me want to raise another question.
> I know that in French the digraph _ll_ is sometimes read as _y_, and other times as a normal _l_. I'm wondering whether there's any relation between the pronunciation of this digraph in French and the pronunciation of _ll/l.l_ in Catalan. Can anyone who speaks the two languages comment on this?



In French: I would say that only 'ill' may be pronounced like 'y', as in 'famille', or 'recueillir'. 'ill' can also be pronounced like 'l' or long 'l', as in 'illégal'. I would not know a rule to decide how to pronounce it. 
In other cases of 'll', I think it is pronounced 'l' as in 'folle', and may be long 'l' as in 'allitération'.

The Catalan or clasical Spanish 'll' does not exist in French. The nearest I can imagine is 'li', as in 'aliéner'


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## panjabigator

Is the "ll" sound similar to the indic retroflex L?  The tongue goes to the back of the mouth and is kind of rolled.


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## betulina

panjabigator said:
			
		

> Is the "ll" sound similar to the indic retroflex L?  The tongue goes to the back of the mouth and is kind of rolled.



I don't think so, Panjabigator. I'm afraid is quite difficult for us to make this kind of sound... and "movement" with the tongue while speaking.  
It's a palatal lateral approximant and it's made by (let's see...) putting the tongue between your teeth and sort of "pushing" up the centre of the tongue against the palate.  Well, I don't know what kind of sound comes out if you are following my instructions... but you see that the tongue does not make the movement you said.


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## Outsider

Panjabigator, you will find an excellent explanation of what the palatal lateral approximant (Catalan ll) is in here. As for l.l, I understand that most people pronounce it as a regular l. It's just an etymological spelling.


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## sound shift

I can pronounce Catalan ll, but not when it is followed by "s", as in "Valls" (a town in the province of Tarragona). Impossible!


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## vince

Catalan -ll at the end of words often turned into French u
So you have foll --> fou, coll --> cou, bell --> beau


In other cases, ll was kept, but is either pronounced as y or l. Perhaps the y pronunciation is derived from an ancient yeísmo.
Consell --> Conseil

famille
fille


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## panjabigator

Thank you guys for the explanation!  I am pretty good at the double letter l.l because of Indian half letters, and I'll work on the pronounciation part of the palatal one.


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## panjabigator

betulina said:


> I don't think so, Panjabigator. I'm afraid is quite difficult for us to make this kind of sound... and "movement" with the tongue while speaking.



I probably explained it incorrectly!  That's why it's difficult!

Anyway, I think I have gotten a grasp on this sound.  It sounds like an L initially but it has a second almost immediate sount after it.  Ostres, I don't know how to explain it...


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## xarruc

Talking of yeisimo en catalan, I know several catalans who cannot say the l.l. They pronounce it as a j when it is at the beginning of a word:

jit for llit
joguer for lloguer  etc. 

this can be very confusing.


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## panjabigator

Might this be a dialectual diference in pronunciation?


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## betulina

Hi!

I suppose Xarruc meant the "ll" sound and not the "l·l", but I don't think it is a dialectual difference. There are "yeïstes" everywhere, and some make a "j" (although, I don't know why, but I think these are mostly Spanish native speakers) and some, most of them, make a "y".

However, I've notice that many people from the Balearics Islands are "yeïstes", but I wouldn't say that all of them are; it's just that the ones I met were.



> It sounds like an L initially but it has a second almost immediate sount after it.  Ostres, I don't know how to explain it...



I think it is much easier, Panja. It's not two sounds, it's just one. Yes, it's so hard to explain it here...


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## xarruc

yeah...I mean't ll not l.l

oh well must have been all that festive cheer!


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## xarruc

the best analogy of the ll I have heard is that its the ll in William

of the l.l I have heard people say that you end one syllable with one l and start the next with an l too, which makes you linger that little bit longer on the l.


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## ampurdan

To my ear, it's very different the Catalan ll sound from the sound of William. William sounds to me just as something like "uiliem"...


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