# pronunciation: Carlos's



## Akasaka

Hello everyone,

How do you pronounce "Carlos's house"? Do I have to pronounce "'s"? If so, how? Carlos is house?

Thanks in advance.


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## AngelEyes

I would add an extra syllable to the name Carlos.

For instance:

Carlos-sus house.

*AngelEyes*


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## Akasaka

Thanks for your advice. But I wonder which is correct?


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## SwissPete

Perhaps it's a matter of preference, as is the spelling itself: *Carlos' house, or Carlos's house.*


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## jj3118

It is Carlos-sus house as says angel eyes.


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## GreenWhiteBlue

If it is spelled "Carlos's house" (which is better than "Carlos' house"), then it is pronounced "Carlos-sus house"


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## vido

Which is the more common spelling, "Carlos' house" or "Carlos's house"?


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## Oeco

I learned to spell it by just putting the apostrophe on the end, but I now see it both ways.  In speaking, I agree with the others.  You have to put the extra syllable in or you could be misunderstood.  Without the extra "sus", the phrase could mean that the house is named Carlos. Like "Ronald McDonald House" (a charity which funds houses near hospitals for family to be near their loved ones)


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## majlo

Carlos's. An apostrophe stands alone at the end of a word when it's plural, e.g. _students' house_.

GreenWhiteBlue, wouldn't the last sound in _Carlos's_ be voiced?


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## GreenWhiteBlue

majlo said:


> GreenWhiteBlue, wouldn't the last sound in _Carlos's_ be voiced?


 
Yes, absolutely, which is exactly why my post above describes just such a pronunciation:


			
				GreenWhiteBlue said:
			
		

> it is pronounced "Carlos-sus house"


 
Do you see something in that description which in any way suggests the last sound in _Carlos's _is not voiced?


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## beccamutt

majlo said:


> Carlos's. An apostrophe stands alone at the end of a word when it's plural, e.g. _students' house_.
> 
> GreenWhiteBlue, wouldn't the last sound in _Carlos's_ be voiced?


 
I agree with majlo: 

It should be _Carlos's house_.  (The house belonging to Carlos.)

If you write _Carlos' house_, you would be saying the house belonging to multiple men named Carlos.  I.e. three friends, all named Carlos, that own a house together.  That would be _Carlos' house_ (although a far-fetched example). 

That being said, many people write _s'_ instead of _s's _anyway.  The example above is getting technical.    And either way, it's pronounced _Carlos-sus._


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## majlo

GreenWhiteBlue said:


> Do you see something in that description which in any way suggests the last sound in _Carlos's _is not voiced?





Yes, I do. The last letter _s _in _Carlos-sus_. If I'd meant a voiced consonant, I would've written _z_. That's why I got confused...


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## Oeco

> Carlos's. An apostrophe stands alone at the end of a word when it's plural, e.g. _students' house_.


There are varying opinions among respected style guides regarding this issue. Some, such as the Chicago Manual on Style, recommend an apostrophe alone without an added "s" after words ending in a voiced "s" but it notes that both styles are correct. Classical and Biblical names generally don't have an additional "s" (Jesus' life, Moses' leadership) but as one style guide puts it "It an acceptable liturgical archaism."  See the Wikipedia article on this.


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## AngelEyes

Yes, Oeco.

The nuns taught me to just add that apostrophe at the end.

It would seem so strange to change now.

This is a stylistic choice, isn't it? Or have the rules changed and wiped out the options?

*AngelEyes*


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## majlo

Oeco said:


> There are varying opinions among respected style guides regarding this issue. Some, such as the Chicago Manual on Style, recommend an apostrophe alone without an added "s" after words ending in a voiced "s" but it notes that both styles are correct. Classical and Biblical names generally don't have an additional "s" (Jesus' life, Moses' leadership) but as one style guide puts it "It an acceptable liturgical archaism."  See the Wikipedia article on this.



I think there's only one correct style with _students' house._ I've never seen a guide, book or whatever thay says it's acceptable to put another _s _in possessives of plural nouns (please, mind I'm writing about this particular structure, not possessives in general), for instance, students's house*, which is what I referred to in my post. The wiki article doesn't either.


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## JamesM

Just as a note, if you didn't pronounce the second "s" it could easily be misheard as:

"Carlo's house" (the house of Carlo)


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## Oeco

majlo said:


> I think there's only one correct style with _students' house._ I've never seen a guide, book or whatever thay says it's acceptable to put another _s _in possessives of plural nouns (please, mind I'm writing about this particular structure, not possessives in general), for instance, students's house*, which is what I referred to in my post. The wiki article doesn't either.


Right.  Sorry.  I misunderstood you to mean that the isolated apostrophe *only* applies to plurals.  Thanks for clearing that up.


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## ewie

Akasaka said:


> Carlos is house?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's how I'd pronounce it, Akasaka: _carloss-iz-house_.
> But, having read through this thread, I've no idea now how I'd go about _spelling_ it.
Click to expand...


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## GreenWhiteBlue

majlo said:


> Yes, I do. The last letter _s _in _Carlos-sus_. If I'd meant a voiced consonant, I would've written _z_. That's why I got confused...


 
Ahhh, we are using two different meanings of "voiced" here. I was using it to mean "said out loud" (as in "They voiced their objections"), as opposed to the meaning found in, for example "B is voiced, and P is voiceless".


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## majlo

So if we take the phonetic terminology into consideration, do you voice that last sound or not?


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## dougelly

Sometimes I write Carlos' (and equivalents); sometimes - less often, I think - I write Carlos's (and equivalents).

However I write it, I_ say_ Carlos's.  Which I pronounce _*Carlosiz.*_


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## JamesM

majlo said:


> So if we take the phonetic terminology into consideration, do you voice that last sound or not?


 
For me it would depend on the word that followed.

For "Carlos's sister" I would not voice the second "s" in Carlos's.

For "Carlos's answer" I would voice the second "s" in Carlos's. 

I am not sure if there is a "rule" I apply.  I think it would be voiced if the next word started with a vowel and not voiced if it started with a consonant.


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## majlo

I see the point. What about _Carlos's father_ then? A consonant follows, but I think there occurs voicing.


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## JamesM

majlo said:


> I see the point. What about _Carlos's father_ then? A consonant follows, but I think there occurs voicing.


 
As I said, I am unaware of a rule. I think I might voice it if speaking slowly and not voice it if speaking quickly. Does that help?


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## AngelEyes

If I were reading it in a commercial, I'd say Carlos-sus, no matter what.

Carlos-sus sister.

Carlos-sus father.

Anything else would sound like I'm slurring and not speaking distinctly.

*AngelEyes*


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## majlo

JamesM said:


> As I said, I am unaware of a rule.



I know, just trying to come up with one; it one even exists...



JamesM said:


> I think I might voice it if speaking slowly and not voice it if speaking quickly. Does that help?



Hmm, let's see...
Would you apply the same method with, say, _These bus*es th*ere_?


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## JamesM

AngelEyes said:


> If I were reading it in a commercial, I'd say Carlos-sus, no matter what.
> 
> Carlos-sus sister.
> 
> Carlos-sus father.
> 
> Anything else would sound like I'm slurring and not speaking distinctly.
> 
> *AngelEyes*


 
I don't think we're discussing whether you say the "sus", AngelEyes, but whether it comes out "sus" or "suz", depending on circumstances.


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## AngelEyes

Oops! Okay, James. 

Boy, that's a tough one. I still think I would be consistent, though, and it would come out "sus" no matter what. 

Mainly for the same reason: It will sound distinct and uncluttered. 

In fact, I'm sitting here saying, "Carlos-sus sister" over and over again. ..._I'm getting a headache..._
It's very difficult to put that *z* sound in. It slows things down for me. Same with "Carlos-sus father."

Honestly? I think it's just a matter of personal taste and regional accent.


*AngelEyes*


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## JamesM

AngelEyes said:


> Oops! Okay, James.
> 
> Boy, that's a tough one. I still think I would be consistent, though, and it would come out "sus" no matter what.
> 
> Mainly for the same reason: It will sound distinct and uncluttered.
> 
> In fact, I'm sitting here saying, "Carlos-sus sister" over and over again. ..._I'm getting a headache..._
> It's very difficult to put that *z* sound in. It slows things down for me. Same with "Carlos-sus father."
> 
> Honestly? I think it's just a matter of personal taste and regional accent.
> 
> 
> *AngelEyes*


 
Try "Carlos's uncle". I find it hard to not voice the second "s" because the "unc" is voiced.  It comes out as "Car-low-seh-zunk-ull". I can force myself to not voice the second "s" ("Car-low-sess-Unk-ull")  but it takes some work. (I feel a little silly going on about this, but it is an interesting puzzle.)


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## kalamazoo

It's not voiced in the phonetic sense, but it is said out loud. "Carlos-sus-house".


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## dougelly

I'm puzzled.

In Carlos's, the second "s" is is surely voiced /z/, regardless of what follows.


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## AngelEyes

JamesM said:


> Try "Carlos's uncle". I find it hard to not voice the second "s" because the "unc" is voiced. It comes out as "Car-low-seh-zunk-ull". I can force myself to not voice the second "s" ("Car-low-sess-Unk-ull") but it takes some work. (I feel a little silly going on about this, but it is an interesting puzzle.)


 
Nope. For me, this is an easy one.

I automatically say, "Carlos-sus uncle."

How would you say:
"Carlos' zany brother."

My brain especially wants to make it clear that those are two distinctly different letters and so it comes out of my mouth that way. (Carlos-sus zany brother)

_...My eyes are starting to water now..._

*AngelEyes*


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## JamesM

Well, akasaka, from this grand sample of two AE speakers it doesn't appear that there is a rule.


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## panjandrum

For more discussion on the spelling AND pronunciation - the two are inextricably linked - why not look at one of the previous threads on this topic?
How to find one?
First I'll try looking up possessive in the WR dictionary.
Bingo.
This is a good one - Possessive - proper names ending in Z or S

Whatever follows or precedes, I think I pronounce 's as schwa-s.
So if you will allow me to warite 3 for schwa, Carlos's is pronounced as Carlos3s.  The version Carlos-sus suggests too many sibilants, or rather too strong a sibilant before the schwa.


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## AngelEyes

panjandrum said:


> Whatever follows or precedes, I think I pronounce 's as schwa-s.
> So if you will allow me to warite 3 for schwa, Carlos's is pronounced as Carlos3s. The version Carlos-sus suggests too many sibilants, or rather too strong a sibilant before the schwa.


 
Panj,

I don't understand hardly anything you just wrote. 

How can you have too many syllables when you're just reading what's there? Nothing more or less.

Ah well...I'm sure it's just a matter of personal taste.

*AngelEyes*


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## panjandrum

AngelEyes said:


> Panj,
> 
> I don't understand hardly anything you just wrote.
> 
> How can you have too many syllables when you're just reading what's there? Nothing more or less.
> 
> Ah well...I'm sure it's just a matter of personal taste.
> 
> *AngelEyes*


Too many sibilants - too many esses - not too many syllables.

I'm trying, unsuccessfully it seems, to suggest that Carlos-sus has too much s if I read it as it is written.
When I say Carlos's there are two equal sibilants separated by an unidentifiable vowel sound - a schwa. The s's in Carlos's sounds just like the first syllable of suspend - which I pronounce as *səs*


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## AngelEyes

Okay. How about:

*Carlos-us house.*

_Now I'm developing a twitch... _

*AngelEyes*


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## panjandrum

AngelEyes said:


> Okay. How about:
> 
> *Carlos-us house.*
> 
> _Now I'm developing a twitch... _
> 
> *AngelEyes*


Swap that u for a schwa and we can shake on it.


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## majlo

James, I don't think there is a rule either. I've just come to this conclusion. Except, maybe, that one is more likely to voice the _s_ if a vowel follows.

Panj, it'd be easier if we had phonetic alphabet font at our disposal.


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## ewie

Twitch, eye-strain, headache, sweaty palms, this thread is driving me up the cacking wall.


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## panjandrum

majlo said:


> [...]
> 
> Panj, it'd be easier if we had phonetic alphabet font at our disposal.


We have.  I use one of the IPA typewriters listed in the forum sticky.


> *3. International Phonetic Alphabet - IPA.*
> There are many different ways to use the IPA symbols within your posts.
> Some of these are listed *HERE*.


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## majlo

/əʊ aɪ dɪdnt nəʊ ðæt/ but I'm sure it'll prove useful.


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## AngelEyes

panjandrum said:


> Swap that u for a schwa and we can shake on it.


 
Buy me a shot of Irish whiskey and we're square.

Seriously...I have to think about your answers some more.

Thanks,

*AngelEyes*


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## majlo

AngelEyes, do you mean to say you don't get the 'schwa' thing?


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## AngelEyes

majlo said:


> AngelEyes, do you mean to say you don't get the 'schwa' thing?


 
If I said no, I don't, would I be voted the dumbest member here?

I really don't want that distinction.



I *think* I've expressed clearly how I say this, and I know I'm not unique from others where I live. So I guess I'll leave it at that.


*AngelEyes*


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## majlo

Of course not!


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