# Urdu: six



## BP.

Hello again

How do you say the word for six i.e. چھ? I do it with a diphthong i.e. ch.ha2ee (چھئے) but it seems I'm the odd one out on this.

Thanks for your attention.


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## Qureshpor

in dinoN aap baRe dil-chasp savaal puuchh rahe haiN. chaliye isii bahaane gintii bhii aa jaa'e gii!!

Farhang-i-Asifiyyah gives this word as "chha" (i.e chh with a zabar).

Nur-ul-luGhaat also gives it "chha" but adds that "ahl-i-dihlii" pronounce it as "chhai" (like you I suppose). 

I (possibly like most people) pronounce it as "chhe". Perhaps this is the Punjabi way.

There is a book entitled "Urdu kaise likhi jaa'e?" by "Rashiid Hasan Khan" (ahl-i-UP). As far as I can remember, he recommended writing it as چھے . Now, what I don't remember, and this is rather unfortunate, is whether this implied "chhai" or "chhe"!


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## BP.

Thank you for the reference-laden post.



> I (possibly like most people) pronounce it as "chhe". Perhaps this is the Punjabi way.


And the Hyderabadi (Deccani) way too, from my limited experience. And Pesawari as well. Looks like I'm in a minority on this one. Let's see which way the forum-gurus besides yourself fall.


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## marrish

I wouldn't say Punjabi has anything to do with it, I pronounce it always as _chhe_ and write as چھِہ _chhih._


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## Faylasoof

BelligerentPacifist said:


> Hello again
> 
> How do you say the word for six i.e. چھ? I do it with a diphthong i.e. ch.ha2ee (چھئے) but it seems I'm the odd one out on this.
> 
> Thanks for your attention.


 We always say _chhai_ - with a diphthong!


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## Qureshpor

QURESHPOR said:


> I (possibly like most people) pronounce it as "chhe". Perhaps this is the Punjabi way.
> 
> There is a book entitled "Urdu kaise likhi jaa'e?" by "Rashiid Hasan Khan" (ahl-i-UP). As far as I can remember, he recommended writing it as چھے . Now, what I don't remember, and this is rather unfortunate, is whether this implied "chhai" or "chhe"!



C.M. Naim gives it as "chhe".


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> C.M. Naim gives it as "chhe".


 My best wishes to _na3iim SaaHib_ and his _chhe_! For us both _chhe_ and _chhaa_ are respectively treated as vulgate and bucolic!


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## BP.

So once again, variety seems to be the rule. Comforting also to know I'm not alone in my group.


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> My best wishes to _na3iim SaaHib_ and his _chhe_! For us both _chhe_ and _chhaa_ are respectively treated as vulgate and bucolic!



Ah, if only you could appreciate the joys of the countryside! By the way, I don't think anyone has suggested "chhaa".


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> Ah, if only you could appreciate the joys of the countryside! By the way, *I don't think anyone has suggested "chhaa*".


 *That depends on how one pronounces it!* 



QURESHPOR said:


> in dinoN aap baRe dil-chasp savaal puuchh rahe haiN. chaliye isii bahaane gintii bhii aa jaa'e gii!!
> 
> *Farhang-i-Asifiyyah gives this word as "chha" (i.e chh with a zabar).*
> 
> Nur-ul-luGhaat also gives it "chha" but adds that "ahl-i-dihlii" pronounce it as "chhai" (like you I suppose).
> 
> I (possibly like most people) pronounce it as "chhe". Perhaps this is the Punjabi way.
> 
> There is a book entitled "Urdu kaise likhi jaa'e?" by "Rashiid Hasan Khan" (ahl-i-UP). As far as I can remember, he recommended writing it as چھے . Now, what I don't remember, and this is rather unfortunate, is whether this implied "chhai" or "chhe"!


 *and therfore how one chooses to write the tranliterated form:* _chha _or _chhaa_ both are bucolic for us! From Awadhi speakers I always heard _*chha / chhaa*_:

*uu chha / chhaa baje aawaa howe *= *woh chhai baje aayaa hai*


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## marrish

Faylasoof said:


> We always say _chhai_ - with a diphthong!


Do you pronounce a clear diphthong here?


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## Faylasoof

marrish said:


> Do you pronounce a clear diphthong here?


 Oh, yes! Absolutely!


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## marrish

Faylasoof said:


> Oh, yes! Absolutely!


Very informative! As a matter of fact, the ''e'' in _chhe_ as spoken by us is not the same ''e'' like in _meN_. It's somewhat shorter and more open, which suggests perhaps an underlying diphthong.


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## Faylasoof

marrish said:


> Very informative! As a matter of fact, the ''e'' in _chhe_ as spoken by us is not the same ''e'' like in _meN_. It's somewhat shorter and more open, which suggests perhaps an underlying diphthong.


 Interesting! So along the way in some regions / amongst some speakers the diphthong either dropped or was attenuated!


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## Qureshpor

Just a thought Faylasoof SaaHib. I have never seen "six" written as "chhe" (chh +baRii ye) or as "chhai" (chh + zabar +baRii ye) except of course in the book, "Urdu kaise likhii jaa'e". It has always been "chh" and as we all know who read and write Urdu, that zabar is not written ordinarily. So, has the original "chha" changed to "chhai" and "chhe" pronunciations? If yes, those who pronounce "chha/chhaa" are possibly the closest to the original. What do you think?


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## marrish

Since this thread is devoted to Urdu, it is wise to ask permission before making a side note with regard to the spelling convention in _nagari_. Six is spelled in three different ways: 

छह _chhah_, छः _chhah(a)_, छै _chhai_ - in order of popularity. I believe छह is the most common way to write six.


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> Just a thought Faylasoof SaaHib. I have never seen "six" written as "chhe" (chh +baRii ye) or as "chhai" (chh + zabar +baRii ye) except of course in the book, "Urdu kaise likhii jaa'e". It has always been "chh" and as we all know who read and write Urdu, that zabar is not written ordinarily. So, has the original "chha" changed to "chhai" and "chhe" pronunciations? If yes, those who pronounce "chha/chhaa" are possibly the closest to the original. What do you think?


 I guess one will need to do some digging but as a general point there are many words which we no longer pronounce or prefer to pronounce as they were once. So even if chha / chhaa is closest to the original it / they would still raise eyebrows in our company because the diphithonged form became standard in not just Lucknow but also Delhi. 

To give another example, and with out trying to go off-topic, the word was originally _giraaN_ (expensive / heavy - depending on usage). Makes sense as that is how we say it in Persian but in our Urdu speech it became _garaaN_, which Platts says is vulgate! But for us _giraaN _in Urdu is vulgate though not in our Persian! In the latter we still say it as the original!

So coming back to chhai / chhe / chha (chhaa), even the way we spell it now is different! Platts has it as:

H* چهه* छः, छ _ćha

But all Urdu dictionaries I have give it as _o_ne with ch چ and a single do-chashmii_ _he_ - can't reproduce it here - always get the _kaanii_ he, thus: *چه*


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## tonyspeed

The standard form of it in Devanagari is छः which is in essence CHaha. 
The actual pronunciation as "CHai" by some seems to fit with the "h" exeception we have in the middle of words like _maihail_ for _mahal_ and _kainaa_ for _kahanaa_. 
Of course, the problem is this rule isn't supposed to apply at the end of words. 

If we to go by regular rules, words such as _vajah_ in Hindi that end with a "h" are usually pronounced with a long "aa". So logically it would be CHaa. (Just as vajah is pronounced "vajaa")

We also have talked about the tendency by some to pronounce words that end in "h" in Hindi as "e" so vajah becomes "vaje" - jagah becomes "jage" etc..
This seems to match with the pronunciation of Chaha as CHe.


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