# Etymology of French "par"



## Testing1234567

French "par" is derived from Latin "PER". Also, the prefix "par-" is derived from Latin "PER-". However, the rules I know cannot explain this E>a change. This seems to be the only instance of such derivation?

Normally, I would expect PER > [pɛr] > [pɛr] > **pèr* /pɛr/, or PER > [pɛr] > [pɛ] > [pjɛ] > **pier* /pje/ ("r" is because of re-latinization).


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## did concombre

it also exists in the *per* form as in "permettre" or "percevoir".
It seems that *par- pour- per- para-* are all from the greek and latin *pro-*


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## did concombre

and sorry, that doesn't answer your question


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## ahvalj

Manuals on the history of French mention a tendency in Middle French to pronounce _er_ as _ar_ (_darnier, aparcevoir_), which caused a counter-reaction among educated people who even came to the pronunciations _Peris, meri_ etc. Apparently, some of these spoken forms have eventually penetrated the national language.


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## bearded

Testing1234567 said:


> This seems to be the only instance of such derivation?


No, in my Bolognese dialect we say ''par tèra'' for ''down, on the earth'' (French 'par terre'), and I think that 'par' also exists in other Romance dialects.
Presumably, it is derived from a late_Latin pronunciation *pèr instead of 'pér'.


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## ahvalj

Note that this _per_ is unstressed, hence it had no diphthongization (cp. also _pour,_ which, if stressed, would have produced **_peur_).


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## CapnPrep

ahvalj said:


> Note that this _per_ is unstressed, hence it had no diphthongization (cp. also _pour,_ which, if stressed, would have produced **_peur_).


_Per_ and _por_ are closed syllables, so one would not expect diphthongization (in French) anyway.


Testing1234567 said:


> PER > [pɛr] > [pɛ] > [pjɛ]


The loss of final consonants happened about 1000 years after diphthongization of ɛ…


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## ahvalj

CapnPrep said:


> _Per_ and _por_ are closed syllables, so one would not expect diphthongization (in French) anyway.


Yes, of course, but as proclitics they sometimes occur before initial vowels (_pour il, auparavant_).


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## CapnPrep

ahvalj said:


> Yes, of course, but as proclitics they sometimes occur before initial vowels (_pour il, auparavant_).


This _enchaînement_ is characteristic of middle/modern French, but I don't think that was the case at the time of diphthongization. Do you have any examples of diphthongization in an initially closed syllable that is made possible by resyllabification across a word boundary?


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## ahvalj

CapnPrep said:


> This _enchaînement_ is characteristic of middle/modern French, but I don't think that was the case at the time of diphthongization. Do you have any examples of diphthongization in an initially closed syllable that is made possible by resyllabification across a word boundary?


_Rem>rien_, peut-être.


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## Testing1234567

bearded man said:


> Testing1234567 said: ↑
> This seems to be the only instance of such derivation?
> 
> No, in my Bolognese dialect we say ''par tèra'' for ''down, on the earth'' (French 'par terre'), and I think that 'par' also exists in other Romance dialects.
> Presumably, it is derived from a late_Latin pronunciation *pèr instead of 'pér'.


I meant in French, where a Latin "E" becomes a French "a".


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## Testing1234567

ahvalj said:


> _Rem>rien_, peut être.


Le "m" ne se prononçait pas, donc le syllabe était ouvert.


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## ahvalj

Testing1234567 said:


> Le "m" ne se prononçait pas, donc le syllabe était ouvert.


How could it be if the nasal in this word persists to date?


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## Testing1234567

ahvalj said:


> How could it be if the nasal in this word persists to date?


Oui, ma faute.


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## Testing1234567

ahvalj said:


> How could it be if the nasal in this word persists to date?


Mais pourquoi le "m" était-il devenu un "n"?


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## CapnPrep

ahvalj said:


> _Rem>rien_, peut-être.


For examples like _rĕm_ > _rien_, _mĕl_ > _miel_, etc. it is usually supposed that the vowel in monosyllables was lengthened and thus subject to diphthongization. I don't think there is any reason to think that the following word (if any) was typically vowel-initial.

But this also implies that _per_ and _por_ might have diphthongized, if not for their proclitic status.


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## ahvalj

Testing1234567 said:


> Mais pourquoi le "m" était-il devenu un "n"?


Don't know what scholars think. I guess, it could be that at some point after the loss of the final _-m _in late Vulgar Latin but before the loss of most final vowels in Old French this _-m_ in _*riem_ was the only instance of the final _-m_ in the language, so it was leveled after the more widespread _-n_ (in _en_ etc.).   

By the way, I agree that in #6 I made a stupid comment, the proclitics of this kind are indeed almost always unstressed, so the further discussion shouldn't deviate from the thread topic.


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## did concombre

ahvalj said:


> Manuals on the history of French mention a tendency in Middle French to pronounce _er_ as _ar_ (_darnier, aparcevoir_), which caused a counter-reaction among educated people who even came to the pronunciations _Peris, meri_ etc. Apparently, some of these spoken forms have eventually penetrated the national language.



In Quebec the word "merde" is pronounced "marde" and can be written marde too i guess.
In France, the differences between regional accents are often about how to pronounce the vowels. Unfortunately I have no example (exemple in french) to propose.


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## Testing1234567

ahvalj said:


> after the loss of the final _-m _in late Vulgar Latin but before the loss of most final vowels in Old French this _-m_ in _*riem_ was the only instance of the final _-m_ in the language, so it was leveled after the more widespread _-n_ (in _en_ etc.).



nom, raim, fam, hom, ...

But yes, words ending in "n" are much more than words ending in "m".


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## Testing1234567

did concombre said:


> In Quebec the word "merde" is pronounced "marde" and can be written marde too i guess.
> In France, the differences between regional accents are often about how to pronounce the vowels. Unfortunately I have no example (exemple in french) to propose.



I still hear "darnier" for "dernier" even in French French.


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## ahvalj

Testing1234567 said:


> nom, raim, fam, hom, ...


All of them had final vowels in pre-Old French (Latin _nōmen, rāmus, fēmina, homō_).


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## Testing1234567

Wait, I know this is off-topic, but how come "raim" is diphthongized but "nom" is not?


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## ahvalj

Testing1234567 said:


> Wait, I know this is off-topic, but how come "raim" is diphthongized but "nom" is not?


See the table here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonological_history_of_French#Table_of_vowel_outcomes (Vowels + _n_). As a Russian joke about a Georgian teacher explaining the rules of the Russian pronunciation to his pupils tells: "you have to learn this because it can't be explained".  Yes, even _pēna>peine_ but _nōmen>nom_. The influence of the nasal somehow inhibited the rise of _u̯ _but not of _ı̯ _(in contrast to English: Latin _sonus > _Old French _son > _English _sound_ etc.).


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