# 言っていました



## José_A

Hi, people:

I'm trying to understand this phrase:
子供の時遊んだと言っていました
I think it says: "He/she said he/she spend his/her time pleasantly when he/she was a child"
Now, what I don't get is 言っていました isn't this "he/she was saying" ? if so, the phrase would sound awkward, "He/she was saying he/she spend his/her time pleasantly when he/she was a child"

I would appreciate any help.
Thanks!!


----------



## uchi.m

José_A said:


> Hi, people:
> 
> I'm trying to understand this phrase:
> 子供の時遊んだと言っていました
> I think it says: "He/she said he/she spend his/her time pleasantly when he/she was a child"
> Now, what I don't get is 言っていました isn't this "he/she was saying" ? if so, the phrase would sound awkward, "He/she was saying he/she spend his/her time pleasantly when he/she was a child"
> 
> I would appreciate any help.
> Thanks!!


He used to say he spent his time pleasantly when he was a child


----------



## kenmori

こんにちは。

 I cannot think of a situation where 言っていました means "someone was saying."  It usually means "someone said...," or "I heard someone say..." In other words, it is used when you tell someone what another person said.

It can also mean "someone used to say," but we usually say よく言っていました or よく言っていたものです to mean that.


----------



## José_A

Thank you for the explanation! I was wondering something, tho, shouldn't "someone said" be 言いました, or both are good?


----------



## almostfreebird

"言いました" is used for kind of narrative description,
and 
"言っていました" is used for kind of reporting description.

And also "言いました" sounds assertive, whereas "言っていました" sounds less assertive, or avoiding to be too assertive.

For example:

She said she wanted to kill  the man.(彼女はその男を殺したいと言いました)
She said she wanted to kill  the man.(彼女はその男を殺したいと言っていました)


----------



## José_A

What a great example!! haha
Thank you a lot, it's clear now =D


----------



## hmwestchester

Almostfeebird,
I love the examples!  

Yah, I agree with almostfreebird.

IMO 言っていました sounds like story telling, 言いました is just a general report of 3rd person's words.


----------



## YangMuye

Hello. It's just my personal feeling,
言った means something happened.
言っている means according to the fact/indication/evidence, it just behaves the same as "言った/言う".


I have some questions: which one should I use when I want to express
①自分の発言事実の存在
だから〔言った・？言ってる〕でしょ。(言ったとおりでしょ)
②他者の発言事実の存在
そんなことを(あなたが)〔言った・？言ってる〕か
③発言内容についての理解
なんと〔言っている・？言った〕のか
何を〔言っている・？言った〕のか
④他者の意思の伝達
先生が早く帰ってと〔言っている・？言った〕よ
⑤自分の意思の伝達
自分の意思の伝達は言う行為自体ですから、「私は『～』と言う・言った・言っている」とは言えないのではないでしょうか。
⑥意思を理解した上で、理由を聞くこと
あなたはなぜ「～と」〔言った・？言っている〕のですか
[いろいろ理由…]、故に、私は「～」と〔言った・？言っている〕のです。

⑦「言う」は「主張する」の意味で使えますか
「いけない」と〔言っている・？言う・？言った〕人は少なからずある。


----------



## Flaminius

Hi,

I shall analyze this using my favourite tool; aspects.  _Itta_ is a reference to an action that once took place in the past.  There is no guarantee that the subject of _itta_ is still saying the same thing at present.  In contrast, _itteita_ is a past state that continued for some time.  Since a state of saying something is a bit too abstract, let's use a more concrete term such as opinion or assertion.  When, if at all, the person changed their opinion is unknown.  Perhaps it does not matter.  In that case, the past marker _-ta_ is to indicate that the speaker learnt of their opinion in the past.  [The Japanese tenses system is relative to the cognitive framework of the speaker, so this is not a semantic acrobat.]


----------



## 82riceballs

Flaminius said:


> In contrast, _itteita_ is a past state that continued for some time.  Since a state of saying something is a bit too abstract, let's use a more concrete term such as opinion or assertion.  When, if at all, the person changed their opinion is unknown.  Perhaps it does not matter.  In that case, the past marker _-ta_ is to indicate that the speaker learnt of their opinion in the past.



Some of the comments I've seen by native speakers online (including almostfreebird's comment) is that 言っていた is softer and less assertive than 言った. I wonder if this perception is due to the fact that 言っていた implies that the person's opinion could have changed. Similar to us saying in English, "He said he would come [but I'm not sure if he still is...]". What do you think?


----------



## 82riceballs

I'm wondering if people agree with this interpretation of the difference between 言っていた and 言った？The writer seems to be saying that 言っていた puts the emphasis on the message being conveyed whereas 言った puts the emphasis on the action of saying something.


②’「スーさんは明日試験があると言っていました。」―「本当ですか。」

③’「スーさんは明日試験があると言いました。」―「本当ですか。」

②’の「本当ですか。」は「明日試験があること」が本当かと聞いているのに対して、③’の「本当ですか。」は「スーさんがそう言ったこと」が本当かと聞いているという意味の違いが出てきます。

また、次の例文からも「言っていました」が伝達内容を重視し、「言いました」が言った行為を問題にしていることがわかります。④Ａ）は『あいうえお』が単なる音声で内容がないので、そのままで完結した文ですが、④Ｂ）はなぜ先生が『あいうえお』と言ったのか、その理由まで言わないと文が完結しません。

④
Ａ）「先生が『あいうえお』と言いました。」（○）
Ｂ）「先生が『あいうえお』と言っていました。」（？）​
Any thoughts?


----------



## DaylightDelight

82riceballs said:


> The writer seems to be saying that 言っていた puts the emphasis on the message being conveyed whereas 言った puts the emphasis on the action of saying something.


I think that's reasonable enough.

Also 言っていた can sometimes mean "one was of the opinion that ...", "one meant ...":

彼はりんごが好きだと言っていた = He said he liked apples.
彼はりんごが好きだと言った = He said "I like apples."


----------



## Flaminius

82riceballs said:


> Some of the comments I've seen by native speakers online (including almostfreebird's comment) is that 言っていた is softer and less assertive than 言った. I wonder if this perception is due to the fact that 言っていた implies that the person's opinion could have changed. Similar to us saying in English, "He said he would come [but I'm not sure if he still is...]". What do you think?


The problem with 言っていた is that it can be used not only for repetitive act of saying but also for a single-time action.  My comment five years ago was an attempt to understood the latter use.

言っていた in contrast with 言った means that one holds a certain opinion, which is expected to last as is unless stated otherwise.  If that helps, you can conceive it as a contrast between the content of the saying and the act of saying.


----------



## frequency

82riceballs said:


> Ａ）「先生が『あいうえお』と言いました。」（○）
> Ｂ）「先生が『あいうえお』と言っていました。」（？）​


​If I speak about these examples only, A) is simple past. Not always, though it is used to say a one-time action. B) would be The sensei _was saying_ (then).

In other contexts, 言っていた can imply "used to say".
​


----------



## 82riceballs

Thanks for all of your answers! 
I must admit that this is getting a bit too theoretical for me haha. 

So let's imagine that there are two students in Japanese class: Peter and Mary.
Peter is paying attention and Mary is not. Mary asks Peter what the teacher just said.
Please let me know which option (言った/言ってた) you think is more appropriate:

Mary: 先生さっきなんって言った？ OR なんって言ってた？
Peter: 先生が『あいうえお』って言った OR 先生が『あいうえお』って言ってた

My guess is that Peter's response would use 言ってた, but not sure about Mary's question. 
Can you think of any situations in which Peter would respond using 言った ?


----------



## 82riceballs

Another question-  does the same need to use 〜ていた apply to other verbs like 叫ぶ, ささやく, つぶやく that have to do with speaking?

In other words, is the following necessary?
彼はリンゴが好きだと叫んでいた・ささやいていた・つぶやいていた？


----------



## DaylightDelight

82riceballs said:


> Mary: 先生さっきなんって言った？ OR なんって言ってた？
> Peter: 先生が『あいうえお』って言った OR 先生が『あいうえお』って言ってた
> 
> My guess is that Peter's response would use 言ってた, but not sure about Mary's question.
> Can you think of any situations in which Peter would respond using 言った ?


I think 言ってた is more natural in both Mary's and Peter's lines.  This conversation sounds like Peter was not there (or was not paying attention) when the teacher said something.  Peter knows/assumes that the teacher said something to Mary and wants to know what.

One situation for 言った that I can think of is when Peter has just missed what the teacher has said:
What did he say now?  先生今なんて言った？
He said あいうえお. 「あいうえお」って言った.​


82riceballs said:


> In other words, is the following necessary?
> 彼はリンゴが好きだと叫んでいた・ささやいていた・つぶやいていた？


They are different from 言っていた. These -ていた don't mean much more than just "was -ing."


----------



## frequency

82riceballs said:


> Please let me know which option (言った/言ってた) you think is more appropriate:
> Mary: 先生さっきなんって言った？ OR なんって言ってた？
> Peter: 先生が『あいうえお』って言った OR 先生が『あいうえお』って言ってた


In these cases, they're interchangeable. But the second can suggest "then or at that moment". The first one doesn't do this.

Do we rightly distinguish them? No, perhaps not at all. But I think that use of 言った can focus on whether the person did it or not.


----------



## 82riceballs

Thanks for all your help! It's a bit clearer now. Or at least less murky...

I just have a couple follow up questions
*
「XXX」と言った/言っていた*

*Is the difference between 言った and 言っていた related to the amount of time that has passed since「XXX」 was uttered*? 

Situation A-1: Students are both in class, one just misses what the teacher said. Short time lapse so use 言った
先生今なんて言った？
「あいうえお」って言った. 

Situation A-2: The students have just returned to the classroom from a 1 hour lunch break. Longer time lapse so use 言っていた
先生昼休みの前になんて言ってた？
「あいうえお」って言ってた.

*Or is the difference between 言った and 言っていた related to people not being present when 「XXX」 was said?*

Situation B-1: Both students are present when teacher said あいうえお, so use 言った
先生今なんて言った？
「あいうえお」って言った. 

Situation B-2: Mary is not paying attention or not physically present (e.g. in the bathroom) when teacher said あいうえお. She comes back from the bathroom and asks Peter what the teacher said. Both students use 言っていた to indicate that Peter was present.
先生なんて言ってた？
「あいうえお」って言ってた.

Any help is appreciated- thank you!


----
----
I'm not sure if this helps, but further up in this explanation I found, the blogger wrote of the need for 現場性 when using 言っていた: 
②「スーさんは明日試験があると言っていました。」
③「スーさんは明日試験があると言いました。」

②では、スーさんが「明日試験がありますよ。」と言ったのを*実際に自分が聞いたことを意味しています*。では、なぜ「言っていました」の場合に「現場性」が必要なのでしょうか。それは言った内容が重要であるという状況の提示のためだと思われます。


----------



## DaylightDelight

I don't really think either the time or the people's presence matter much in this case.
I also don't know if that 現場性 from the blog applies here.
As repeatedly mentioned in this thread, 言っていた focuses on what was being said while 言った focuses on the act of saying itself.

You ask "なんて言った？" when you want to know the exact words as they were spoken.
On the other hand "なんて言ってた？" implies that you want to know the content of what was said.
So when the subject of 言う is second or third person, I can't think of many cases where 言った is appropriate.

In your teacher example, the one asking the question usually wants to know what the teacher meant. So in most cases it's "なんて言ってた？". 
When, for example, the teacher announces the answer to a question, and one student fails to hear it, then the student might ask a nearby student "先生いまなんて言った？" because in that case the student wants to know the exact words.


----------



## frequency

82riceballs said:


> Another question-  does the same need to use 〜ていた apply to other verbs like 叫ぶ, ささやく, つぶやく that have to do with speaking?
> In other words, is the following necessary?
> 彼はリンゴが好きだと叫んでいた・ささやいていた・つぶやいていた？


In these examples, he _was doing_ so.


----------



## frequency

82riceballs said:


> I'm not sure if this helps, but further up in this explanation I found, the blogger wrote of the need for 現場性 when using 言っていた:
> ②「スーさんは明日試験があると言っていました。」
> ③「スーさんは明日試験があると言いました。」
> 
> ②では、スーさんが「明日試験がありますよ。」と言ったのを*実際に自分が聞いたことを意味しています*。では、なぜ「言っていました」の場合に「現場性」が必要なのでしょうか。それは言った内容が重要であるという状況の提示のためだと思われます。


This is nonsense and explains nothing.

See, ①「私が部屋に入ったとき、彼はテレビを見ていました。」
At this moment（部屋に入った） he _was doing_ so.

Both 2 and 3 are the thing the speaker heard lol. But I agree that 3 focuses on "Sue said so" more than 2.


And this is a bit spin-off but see, if you say
先生が*よく*『あいうえお』と言っていました。

..this sensei is a bit strange, so let's say

彼はよくりんごが好きだと言っていた。
This means _He used to say that he liked apples_.

But we sometimes leave よく out from this one. If so, it's
彼はりんごが好きだと言っていた。
You know, this is _He *was saying* that he liked apples_.


I mean that if よく is left out,
彼はりんごが好きだと言っていた ends up in two-way like that―but not very often.


----------



## 82riceballs

DaylightDelight said:


> You ask "なんて言った？" when you want to know the exact words as they were spoken.
> On the other hand "なんて言ってた？" implies that you want to know the content of what was said.
> So when the subject of 言う is second or third person, I can't think of many cases where 言った is appropriate.
> 
> In your teacher example, the one asking the question usually wants to know what the teacher meant. So in most cases it's "なんて言ってた？".
> When, for example, the teacher announces the answer to a question, and one student fails to hear it, then the student might ask a nearby student "先生いまなんて言った？" because in that case the student wants to know the exact words.





frequency said:


> This is nonsense and explains nothing.
> 
> ...
> 
> 彼はよくりんごが好きだと言っていた。
> This means _He used to say that he liked apples_.
> 
> But we sometimes leave よく out from this one. If so, it's
> 彼はりんごが好きだと言っていた。
> You know, this is _He *was saying* that he liked apples_.
> 
> 
> I mean that if よく is left out,
> 彼はりんごが好きだと言っていた ends up in two-way like that―but not very often.



Thank you all, it is clear now!!


----------

