# All Slavic: ty, vy



## Encolpius

Hello, I know Czechs, Slovaks ans Russians use the system like French: 

*tu* = ty or ты (informal)

*vous* = vy or вы (informal plural + formal singular and plural)

I wonder if all Slavic languages use that system. 

Of course it would be interesting to know if there was any French influence. 

Please do not write how you translate the pronoun "you", but what you use for tutoiement or vouvoiement. 


Thanks.


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## Awwal12

> Of course it would be interesting to know if there was any French influence.


In Russian there really was some European influence (not sure which one it was, though). As far as I remember, in Russian "вы" had not been used in its "polite singular" meaning until XVIII century. Church Slavonic also never uses "вы" in singular number, for instance, only in plural.


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## Encolpius

Awwal12 said:


> In Russian there really was some European influence (not sure which one it was, though). As far as I remember, in Russian "вы" had not been used in its "polite singular" meaning until XVIII century. Church Slavonic also never uses "вы" in singular number, for instance, only in plural.



Very interesting answer in general, but especial what you mention about European influence. You do not consider yourself European, do you?  But maybe the situation is similar to Turkey.


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## TriglavNationalPark

Slovenian used *onikanje* (*oni* = 3rd person plural), much like "siezen" in modern German, as recently as the beginning of the 20th century, but now only *vikanje*  or "vouvoiement" (*vi* = formal singular, otherwise 2nd person plural) survives as a formal form of address.


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## Encolpius

TriglavNationalPark said:


> Slovenian used *onikanje* (*oni* = 3rd person plural), much like "siezen" in modern German, as recently as the beginning of the 20th century, but now only *vikanje*  or "vouvoiement" (*vi* = formal singular, otherwise 2nd person plural) survives as a formal form of address.



The situation is similar to Czech, they also used *onikání*.
Of course it would be interesting to know if other Slavic languages used something similar in the past, too.


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## Awwal12

> Very interesting answer in general, but especial what you mention about European influence. You do not consider yourself European, do you?


In sociocultural aspects, Russia always was rather a separate world, I believe. And, especially, before the reforms of Peter the Great who totally changed the lifestyle of Russian elite (since we are talking about that age now). 


> But maybe the situation is similar to Turkey.


To some degree, yes, there are some parallels. The only difference is that the Russian history and historical relations between Russia ans Western countries were even more complicated and ambiguous. But I'm afraid that turns into the great off-topic. )


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## phosphore

Serbian:

ti = informal singular you
tutoyer = tikati, tutoiement = tikanje

vi = formal singular and plural you
vouvoyer = persirati, vouvoiement = persiranje


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## indiegrl

Encolpius said:


> Hello, I know Czechs, Slovaks ans Russians use the system like French:
> 
> *tu* = ty or ты (informal)
> 
> *vous* = vy or вы (informal plural + formal singular and plural)
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks.



The only difference is that in writing, it's Bы(singular) and вы(plural)


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## Encolpius

phosphore said:


> Serbian:
> 
> ti = informal singular you
> tutoyer = tikati, tutoiement = tikanje
> 
> vi = formal singular and plural you
> vouvoyer = persirati, vouvoiement = persiranje



why persirati? what is the etymology of persirati, what does it mean literally? Why not vikati? thanks.


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## phosphore

Encolpius said:


> why persirati? what is the etymology of persirati, what does it mean literally? Why not vikati? thanks.


 
Good question.

I found that "persirati" comes from Latin "per" and German "sie" (and the three other morphemes {-ir-} as an aspect marker, {-a-} as a conjugation marker and {-ti} as an infinitive marker). On the other hand, "vikati" means "to yell" (though it carries the long rising accent on the first syllable, while a form that would mean "vouvoyer" would most probably carry the short falling accent, but nevertheless it does not exist).


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## Orlin

Bulgarian: tu=ти; vous=вие (2nd p. pl.), Вие (formal 2nd p. sg.). I think that that special verbs for tutoiement and vouvoiement don't exist or at least aren't used much, and the expressions "говоря на ти" and "говоря на Вие" are normally used for this.


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## Christo Tamarin

Awwal12 said:


> In Russian there really was some European influence (not sure which one it was, though). As far as I remember, in Russian "вы" had not been used in its "polite singular" meaning until XVIII century. Church Slavonic also never uses "вы" in singular number, for instance, only in plural.


 
French, Spanish, German developed specific grammatical models for "polite singular". 

Russian just adopted the French model. Bulgarian and Greek did the same. 

There is actually some differences in the details.

French, Bulgarian, Greek: Vous êtes très belle. Много сте красива. Είστε πολύ όμορφη. 

Russian: Вы очень красивы. The adjective is also in Plural, unlike French/Bugarian/Greek.


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## Orlin

Christo Tamarin said:


> Russian just adopted the French model. Bulgarian and Greek did the same.
> 
> There is actually some differences in the details.
> 
> French, Bulgarian, Greek: Vous êtes très belle. Много сте красива. Είστε πολύ όμορφη.
> 
> Russian: Вы очень красивы. The adjective is also in Plural, unlike French/Bugarian/Greek.


 
Btw, the French model has also been adopted by BCS and the detail is that adjectives *are always in masculine gender plural* if a "polite 2 p. sg." is meant: Vi ste lep*i*.
If 2 p. pl. is used, both masculine and feminine gender can be used according to what group of people they refer: Vi ste lep*i*/lep*e*.


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## Adnyre

As far as I know, Poles use "pan" rather than "wy".


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## alxz310

Adnyre said:


> As far as I know, Poles use "pan" rather than "wy".



(and pani for the feminine form)
This can also be heard in some western dialects of Ukrainian


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## robin74

In Polish, "ty" is an informal form (and takes second person singular form).

The formal form however is "Pan" (masc), "Pani" (fem) or "Państwo" (plural), which take _third_ person verbs (singular or plural, respectively), much like European Spanish "usted / ustedes" form.


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## marco_2

robin74 said:


> In Polish, "ty" is an informal form (and takes second person singular form).
> 
> The formal form however is "Pan" (masc), "Pani" (fem) or "Państwo" (plural), which take _third_ person verbs (singular or plural, respectively), much like European Spanish "usted / ustedes" form.


 
_That's right, although in the past people in the country also adressed each other using "wy" + 2. plural *(co mówicie, kumie;  usiądźcie, matulu etc*.) This form had been adopted and recommended by the followers of Communist regime and one could hear e.g. *wiecie, towarzyszu; pozwólcie, obywatelu *- fortunately, this epoch had gone away _


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## Encolpius

marco_2 said:


> _That's right, although in the past people in the country also adressed each other using "wy" + 2. plural *(co mówicie, kumie;  usiądźcie, matulu etc*.) This form had been adopted and recommended by the followers of Communist regime and one could hear e.g. *wiecie, towarzyszu; pozwólcie, obywatelu *- fortunately, this epoch had gone away _



What do you mean by *in the past*? 19th century, 20s or 40s of the 20th? or maybe even later?


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## marco_2

Encolpius said:


> What do you mean by *in the past*? 19th century, 20s or 40s of the 20th? or maybe even later?


 
_Well, my grandfather, born in 1894, used it after the WW II, but only speaking to elderly women, his friends' wives _


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## Encolpius

marco_2 said:


> _Well, my grandfather, born in 1894, used it after the WW II, but only speaking to elderly women, his friends' wives _



Very interesting. And do you think only people living in the country used wy, people in cities used pan/pani only?


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## marco_2

Encolpius said:


> Very interesting. And do you think only people living in the country used wy, people in cities used pan/pani only?


 
_Yes, even in 17th century noblemen addressed each other e.g. "waćpan" + 3. singular. And later reach people addressed their servants using their names and 3. singular, but when addressing peasants, they used names and "wy" + plural._


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