# Glitch in "unread" (bold) display



## Wordsmyth

I'm sure this is a rare occurrence, but maybe there's a quick fix (... or not).

Today the WordReference Forums moving to new forum software  thread appeared at the top of my "Watched Threads" list, with a new post indicated: "Today at 1:48 PM". 

However the last visible post in the thread is dated Aug 20, 2015. I guess this could be because someone posted today, then deleted the post (moderator's invisible delete?). So far, no problem. 

But unfortunately the thread title remains bolded in my "Watched Threads" list, and keeps the 'unread' blue dot, even though I've opened the thread several times, and even tried 'unwatching' the thread then 're-watching' it. The same thing occurs in the 'Comments and Suggestions' Forum thread list.

It's not the end of the world, but it's a bit irritating having it appear permanently in my "unread watched threads". And if anyone should add a real new post to that thread I'll probably end up not noticing it (unless I recheck the latest post date every time I look there). And of course if the same thing happens again, I (and others) could end up with several wrongly flagged "unread watched threads".

Unless I'm missing some obvious 'cure' (which is quite possible), this may be something for your 'to do' list if you have time, Mike.

(@JamesM : I'm tagging you, James, because you may have an idea of what caused it. Today's post (now disappeared) was attributed to you.)

Ws


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## mkellogg

There is probably some issue with Watched Threads not being updated when posts are moved to the trash.  If a moderator can isolate exactly what the issue is, I can report it to Xenforo and we can hope that they agree it is a problem. There is a good chance that they will say "yea, Watched Threads isn't perfect, so we won't fix it", though.


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## siares

Hi Mike,
It is not only in Watched threads.
I am not watching either of the 2 threads which remain bolded after being read in C&S: Joke page on WR and WR moving to new forum software.


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## mkellogg

Siares, is this something that has changed recently, or has it always been a problem?


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## siares

Only from today.


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## Wordsmyth

Thanks for your quick reply, Mike. 

It's getting curiouser and curiouser. I've just read the 'Jokes' thread that siares mentioned. It's not a thread I'm watching, but yes, in the C&S thread list it remains obstinately bolded.

Clue (maybe)?: The last post in the 'Jokes' thread is dated "*Today at 8:08 AM*". But in the C&S thread list, in the 'last message' column, it's shown as "*Today at 10:31 AM*" (same member name as the real last post, and no sign of a deleted post in the thread). It seems it might be a problem of time-labelling, rather than of post-deletion (which was just my first guess at a possible cause, but now seems off the mark).

Similarly for the "new forum software" thread, the member name for the 'last message' (JamesM) is the same as for the real last post — it's just the times that are different: in this case by over three months!

I've checked several other threads, where the title is correctly unbolded after reading, and the last post time in the actual post is the same as the 'last message' time in the thread list.

Ws


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## mkellogg

Wordsmyth said:


> *Today at 10:31 AM*


I see that there was some moderator action on the thread at that time that could easily cause the issue you are talking about.   There isn't much to worry about there, though we will occasionally see threads where this happens.


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## Wordsmyth

OK Mike, thanks. Mystery solved, then.

Ws


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## Loob

It does seem to be the case that any thread bumped by a moderator continues to show permanently as unread, with the title in bold and the 'blue dot' to the left-hand side. (There's a current example in _English Only_.) It's only mildly irritating - but if you could have a look at it when life permits, that would be great, Mike.
......

Later Edit: 
Ah, watching the EO example I mentioned, I've worked out what happens.  A thread that's been bumped continues to have "permanently unread" status _until someone answers it_.  It then becomes an ordinary thread again. 
So I don't think there's any need for action, Mike!


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## Wordsmyth

Loob said:


> A thread that's been bumped continues to have "permanently unread" status _until someone answers it_. It then becomes an ordinary thread again.
> So I don't think there's any need for action, Mike!


Good work, Loob.

I've just tested that by posting in the "WR moving ..." thread that I mentioned in post #1 above. Bingo! It's no longer bolded.

Problem solved.

Ws


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## siares

Loob said:


> A thread that's been bumped continues to have "permanently unread" status _until someone answers it_. It then becomes an ordinary thread again.


Is this to help old threads with new questions? I notice these get less views than new threads, so I think bolding itself would not help, but if they remained on the first page until they are answered, that would be good.


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## Loob

I don't know if having "permanently unread" status means that a thread remains on the front page of the forum, siares.

I suspect it probably doesn't mean that.


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## Wordsmyth

I'm posting this here because I think it's another manifestation of the same root problem, so the above posts may be relevant. The symptoms, however, are different, and a bit more bothersome than just the bolding issue.

I recently noticed that a thread I was watching had seemingly disappeared from my Watched Threads. After some searching, I finally found it on page 2 of my Watched Threads, with the 'last message' shown as Nov 20, 2015. But the last message (correctly dated _within_ the thread) was actually yesterday (Dec 20). The thread had had several posts (visibly) deleted by a moderator, but the last untouched post was still from Dec 20. *So I guess this is a re-dating bug following moderator action*. 

Following Loob's discovery above (#9), I tried posting to the thread, and bingo! It reappeared at the top of my Watched Threads list. I then deleted the test post, and the thread correctly shifted down the list to the date-position of the last undeleted post (Dec 20). So deletion by a member (non-moderator) doesn't seem to cause the same glitch.

The bolding issue isn't a major problem, but this apparent 'disappearance' is a bit more annoying. (It was only by chance that I discovered I'd missed seeing a post in that thread.)

It seems this false re-dating can affect several different areas of the forum, so maybe XenForo ought to look into it.

Ws


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## JamesM

Great troubleshooting, Wordsmyth!


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## Loob

JamesM said:


> Great troubleshooting, Wordsmyth!


James, what had happened to Wordsmyth's thread?


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## Wordsmyth

I guess, Loob, that it's much the same as what Mike mentioned in #7, and what you tracked down (#9) — except that here the (random?) redating caused the thread to shoot off and hide on another page, instead of just affecting the 'unread' status.

But maybe James (with his Mod access and occupational expertise) might have a better idea of what's lurking under the stones we've lifted ...?

As Mike said ... 





mkellogg said:


> If a moderator can isolate exactly what the issue is, I can report it to Xenforo and we can hope that they agree it is a problem.


 Hint, hint, James.

Ws


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## siares

Here is another thread wrongly dated in the list (a month before the last message)
May I ask the right meaning of these sentences??
I can't see a moderator's action in there.
Just wondering if this took the thread right off the first page and contributed to it remain unanswered, with a welcome to forum at least.


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## JamesM

It appears to be related to de-bumping, an action that moderators take when a thread has been bumped in a way that is against the rules or has been bumped by moderator actions on the thread.

I'll bring it up with the other moderators.  It ssems to be having unintended consequences.


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## Wordsmyth

JamesM said:


> I'll bring it up with the other moderators. It ssems to be having unintended consequences.


Thanks, James.


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## mkellogg

This issue seems to be with WR's modification of the XF software.  It might be a few months before we work on it, but I've made a note that this is something that needs to be fixed.


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## Wordsmyth

Thanks for that, Mike.


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## mkellogg

Can somebody show me an example of this that is happening now?  I need to get into the database and try to figure out what exactly is happening.


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## JamesM

Are you asking about the unread status issue ("unread bold display") or the debumping issue?   I think the unread status makes sense.


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## Wordsmyth

I've had a look back through several pages of my own Watched Threads, and can't see one that currently seems to suffer from the problem. 

But then the circumstances that seem to cause it are very particular. If it is related to de-bumping (JamesM's post #18), then I'd see it only if a thread has been de-bumped AND nobody has since posted to it.

Maybe the best bet is for a moderator who knows that he/she has very recently de-bumped a thread to see if it shows the symptoms (incorrect date and list position, and 'locked' bolding), and flag it to you, Mike (before anyone else posts to it and resets it to normal).

Ws


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## Wordsmyth

JamesM said:


> Are you asking about the unread status issue ("unread bold display") or the debumping issue? I think the unread status makes sense.


My suspicion was that (a) the false unread status (bolded title and blue dot both remaining, even after I've read an affected thread repeatedly, with no new posts), and (b) the false dating and incorrect list position, both come from the same source problem. Both sets of symptoms (a & b) occur together for any affected thread (see my #6), and both are 'cured' if someone adds a new post to the thread (see Loob's #9 and my #10 & #13).

If you're right about de-bumping being the cause, my guess is it could be the cause of both issues.

Ws


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## Loob

I suspect that bumping/de-bumping must always have affected the position of threads in people's _Watched Threads/My Threads_ list, given that it affects their position in the forum listings.  (But perhaps I'm wrong?)

What's new, I think, is that bumped threads - and de-bumped threads too, I see from Ws's comments - have "permanently unread" status until someone answers them.  By "permanently unread" status I mean that however many times someone reads them, the titles still rermain bolded and there's still a "dot" on the LH-side of the thread title.

This is slightly annoying from the point of view of a reader, but I don't know how important it is in the grand scheme of things.

I may be missing the point.

EDIT: typo​


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## JamesM

I just created a test thread and de-bumped it.  Here is the link:

http://forum.wordreference.com/search/553798/

It is only a minute old but it doesn't appear on the first page anymore.  Can one of you reply to it and let me know here?  Then I'll de-bump it again and we'll see what happens.


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## Peterdg

When I click the link, it says:
*WordReference Forums - Error*
The requested search could not be found.


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## Wordsmyth

@JamesM : Same for me: 

*WordReference Forums - Error*
The requested search could not be found.

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Loob said:


> I suspect that that bumping/de-bumping probably must always have affected the position of threads in people's _Watched Threads/My Threads_ list, given that they affect their position in the forum listings. (But perhaps I'm wrong?)



Good point, Loob — given that the very reason for de-bumping is to drop a thread back down the list. But it would make sense to me for it to drop back to the date and time of the last 'valid' (undeleted) post, rather than to some (random?) earlier date. Take the example I mentioned in #13:


Wordsmyth said:


> After some searching, I finally found it on page 2 of my Watched Threads, with the 'last message' shown as Nov 20, 2015. But the last message (correctly dated _within_ the thread) was actually yesterday (Dec 20). The thread had had several posts (visibly) deleted by a moderator, but the last untouched post was still from Dec 20.


The problem for me was that I hadn't ever seen the last valid post, which referred back to comments I'd made a little earlier, and I'd probably never have seen it if I hadn't happened to go searching for it. I tend to look at all bolded threads at the top of my Watched Threads list, but I wouldn't normally think to look on page 2 for a thread with a new post from just the day before. 

In fact the thread hadn't really been de-bumped, because the last valid post (Dec 20) wasn't a bump. It had just been 'demoted' to a list position a month earlier than that last valid (and, in my case, unread) post. Maybe moderators have some good reason for doing that, but if the 'de-bump' date is arbitrary, perhaps there'd be some merit in my idea of only 'de-bumping' back to the date of the last valid (undeleted) post.

Ws


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## JamesM

Sorry... let's try that again:

This is a test thread - please ignore

I thought the link looked odd.


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## JamesM

Moderators do not have a choice of dates when de-bumping.  It calculates it automatically.  I believe it just moves it back exactly one month.

There are several reasons for de-bumping.  

One of them (that I hadn't even thought of before) came out of our conversation among the moderators.  Some moderators de-bump a thread that is a new question on an old topic.  This gives them the chance to merge the thread with a pre-existing thread and then bump it back up to the top.  It's a housekeeping chore.  

Also, we sometimes get comment spammers who comment on some old post in order to create a backward link from a popular site.  They resurrect threads from years ago with a useless comment.  This takes away room on the first page from people asking legitimate questions.  

Sometimes a new member posts a question with no context.  Rather than delete the post and send a note, some moderators choose to de-bump the thread and then communicate with the member.  Once the member adds a post with context that thread will pop back up to the first page.  We avoid deleting a newcomer's first message that way.

There are probably other reasons, but that gives you an idea of the way the tool is sometimes used.


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## Wordsmyth

JamesM said:


> Sorry... let's try that again:
> 
> This is a test thread - please ignore
> 
> I thought the link looked odd.



OK, found it. It's on page 77 of the EO forum thread list, marked 'Last message Dec 9' (my time zone), and of course the posting time within the thread is today ("31 minutes ago").

I then 'watched' the thread, and it appears in my Watched Threads, date-labelled as above.

In both cases, the thread title is unbolded (logically, because I've read it). So the 'permanent bolding' doesn't seem to be caused by de-bumping (or the bug has gone away?). Maybe it's something to do with moderator deletion of the last post (followed by de-bumping?), but we could only test that if someone replies and then you delete the post.

Ws


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## JamesM

Go ahead and reply and I'll de-bump it after you do.


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## Wordsmyth

OK, done.


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## JamesM

It has been de-bumped.  How does it look in your watched threads list?  In mine it is not highlighted and there is no blue dot, even though you did make a new post to it.  Of course, I read the thread from the first page before de-bumping it, so it shouldn't be highlighted.

What about you?


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## JamesM

How about posting to it again and I'll delete the second of your posts.  We can see what happens in that case.


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## Wordsmyth

Still 'Dec 9' in the list, still unbolded (without my having opened it). I then opened the thread, and came back out. Still unbolded (as you'd expect).

... OK, I've posted again.


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## JamesM

Okay, I deleted a post, then added a post of my own, then de-bumped it.  I would expect it to be highlighted on your list.


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## Wordsmyth

Still Dec 9, still unbolded. I wonder, though, if your added post affects the test.

One final try maybe, to reproduce the conditions of earlier cases:

- How about you re-bump it back to today, delete my first reply (or your 2nd post, or both), then don't re-post yourself, then de-bump it ...?

If that doesn't reproduce the bolding bug, I give up (but at least we'll have tried).

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_[Edit]: _
Aside from the testing, James, many thanks for your explanation (in #31) of the way de-bumping is used. I've also seen one or two instances where I think it's been done (after a moderator has deleted several off-topic or 'chat' posts) to discourage further off-topic/chat posting. I can now see better the usefulness of the tool, and if it occasionally causes a little inconvenience (like my 'missed post' story), I guess we can live with it 'for the greater good'.



JamesM said:


> Moderators do not have a choice of dates when de-bumping. It calculates it automatically. I believe it just moves it back exactly one month.


 OK, that accounts for the cases where there's a one-month shift. But then I'm puzzled by the case I mentioned in post #6 ...


Wordsmyth said:


> Clue (maybe)?: The last post in the 'Jokes' thread is dated "*Today at 8:08 AM*". But in the C&S thread list, in the 'last message' column, it's shown as "*Today at 10:31 AM*" (same member name as the real last post, and no sign of a deleted post in the thread). It seems it might be a problem of time-labelling, rather than of post-deletion (which was just my first guess at a possible cause, but now seems off the mark).


The anomaly there was a time difference of 2hours 23 min. Mike did mention (in #7) "some moderator action on the thread at that time that could easily cause the issue you are talking about" — but presumably that was some other action, not de-bumping.

Ws

​


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## JamesM

I have:

1) bumped it
2) deleted everything but my first post
3) de-bumped it again


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## Wordsmyth

Thanks. 

- Refreshed my Watched Threads page, went to Dec 9: thread title still unbolded.
- Opened thread, exited: still unbolded.

Oh well, either the bug's gone away or the test didn't exactly reproduce whatever was causing it before; (a bit like calling out the TV repair man, and when he arrives it's working OK). If I ever come across the problem again I'll post back. Anyway, thanks a lot for all your efforts in trying to track it down, James.

Ws


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## JamesM

Well, at least we tried.


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## mkellogg

JamesM said:


> Are you asking about the unread status issue ("unread bold display") or the debumping issue?   I think the unread status makes sense.


I thought it was the same issue, basically that debumping a thread caused the unread status issue.

Next time that it occurs, let me know and I'll investigate.


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