# 弁当まで持っていく



## Starfrown

The following is a sentence from 『神様』by Kawakami Hiromi:

春先に、鴫をみるために、行ったことはあったが、暑い季節にこうして弁当まで持っていくのははじめてである。

I understand this sentence, but I'm wondering about the reason for the choice of まで after 弁当.  Is the meaning as follows:

"...it was the first time I had taken *so much as a box lunch*..." ?

In other words, a box lunch is the most she has ever ventured to take in the hot season.  Am I right?

Thank you


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## Flaminius

謹賀新年、星顰兄。  



> [A] box lunch is the most she has ever ventured to take in the hot season.  Am I right?


Sometimes Japanese postpositional adverbs (副助詞) do this but _-made_ is modifying the noun in form but the whole verb phrase in reality.

A grammatically self-explanatory rewrite is:
暑い季節にこうして弁当を持ってまでいく

Somehow this does not sound natural.


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## Starfrown

Flaminius said:


> 謹賀新年、星顰兄。


Likewise:

新年あけましておめでとうございます


Flaminius said:


> Sometimes Japanese postpositional adverbs (副助詞) do this but _-made_ is modifying the noun in form but the whole verb phrase in reality.
> 
> A grammatically self-explanatory rewrite is:
> 暑い季節にこうして弁当を持ってまでいく
> 
> Somehow this does not sound natural.


I'm not quite sure that I follow you.  Could you suggest an English translation?


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## Flaminius

Going there in the hot season, with a lunch box at that.

The place seems to be an uncomfortable place in the hot season.  Taking a lunch box means that the protagonist is going to stay there while they eat it, no?  The postpositional _-made_ means that taking a lunch box implies extra trouble; it is not burdensome in itself but it makes the stay longer, thus more uncomfortable.


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## rukiak

In this case, まで means surpassing one's expectation or its limit.
So your reading seems right.
It does imply "big thing" or "extra trouble" by using the word　"まで" as Flaminius says, but it doesn't need to imply "uncomfortable" not only in this case, but also in other cases.

This use has a property of "comparison with something", so it doesn't be used in a sentence which has no implication of comparison. If it's used in such a sentence, it usually means until/ to/ through.


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## Yabanjin

Starfrown said:


> The following is a sentence from 『神様』by Kawakami Hiromi:
> 
> 春先に、鴫をみるために、行ったことはあったが、暑い季節にこうして弁当まで持っていくのははじめてである。
> 
> I understand this sentence, but I'm wondering about the reason for the choice of まで after 弁当.  Is the meaning as follows:
> 
> "...it was the first time I had taken *so much as a box lunch*..." ?
> 
> In other words, a box lunch is the most she has ever ventured to take in the hot season.  Am I right?


No. The meaning here is "... it was the first time I had * gone as far as * taking a box lunch ..."


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## Wishfull

Starfrown said:


> The following is a sentence from 『神様』by Kawakami Hiromi:
> 
> a box lunch is the most she has ever ventured to take in the hot season.  Am I right?
> 
> Thank you


No.
She has experienced two things, which are independent each other.
春先に行くことはあっても、熱い季節にいくことはなかった。（初めて夏に訪れた。）
１－２時間滞在することはあっても、半日（５－８時間）（間に食事を一回はさむほどの期間）もの長時間にわたって、（徹底的に）滞在したことはない。

弁当を持って何かをする　means "making a big thing out of it and taking half-a-day."


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## Starfrown

Flaminius said:


> Going there in the hot season, with a lunch box at that.
> The place seems to be an uncomfortable place in the hot season. Taking a lunch box means that the protagonist is going to stay there while they eat it, no? The postpositional -made means that taking a lunch box implies extra trouble; it is not burdensome in itself but it makes the stay longer, thus more uncomfortable.


I now clearly see what you meant in post #2. Very good translation --"at that" will do nicely.

Side note: We English speakers use the terms "box(ed) lunch" and "lunch box" more or less interchangeably in many contexts, though of course in some cases it is imperative to use either one or the other. For instance, you couldn't say:

"He's eating his lunch box."  (Unless of course he was indeed eating the box )



rukiak said:


> In this case, まで means surpassing one's expectation or its limit.
> So your reading seems right.
> It does imply "big thing" or "extra trouble" by using the word　"まで" as Flaminius says, but it doesn't need tonecessarily imply "uncomfortable" not only in this case, but also in other cases.
> This use has a property of "comparison with something", so it doesn't beisn't used in a sentence which has no implication of comparison. If it's used in such a sentence, it usually means until/ to/ through.


Thanks, rukiak. I think I have a better understanding now.



Wishfull said:


> No.
> She has experienced two things, which are independent of each other.
> 春先に行くことはあっても、熱い季節にいくことはなかった。（初めて夏に訪れた。）
> １－２時間滞在することはあっても、半日（５－８時間）（間に食事を一回はさむほどの期間）もの長時間にわたって、（徹底的に）滞在したことはない。
> 弁当を持って何かをする　means "making a big thing out of it and taking half-a-day."


Very well put Wishfull. I think my problem arose from the fact that I was viewing _motte iku_ as a single unit, when I should have been treating the verbal phrase _bentou made motte_ as separate from _iku_.



Yabanjin said:


> No. The meaning here is "... it was the first time I had gone as far as taking a box lunch ..."


I considered this translation, but had trouble making it work because, as Wishfull made explicit in his post, it must be clear that the narrator had never been to the river bed before in the hot season. Flaminius' suggestion with "at that" captures it perfectly, I think.
-----
Here's my revised translation of the entire sentence:

"I had been in the early spring to see the snipes, but it was the first time I had gone like this in the hot season--and with a box lunch at that."

I have two more minor related questions:

1. Would it be possible to use も instead of まで here with the same effect?

2. How exactly does こうして relate to 弁当まで持って? I translated it above as though it were more or less separate. That is, does こう refer specifically to 弁当まで持って or does it simply refer collectively to the circumstances (事態) of the trip?


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## rukiak

Thank you for your correction.


Starfrown said:


> I have two more minor related questions:
> 
> 1. Would it be possible to use も instead of まで here with the same effect?
> 
> 2. How exactly does こうして relate to 弁当まで持って? I translated it above as though it were more or less separate. That is, does こう refer specifically to 弁当まで持って or does it simply refer collectively to the circumstances (事態) of the trip?


For the question 1, yes. I thought whether I should refered to the topic or not when I last posted. There is a little difference between them, but roughly, no difference. You can also say "までも" insted of "まで" here.
As for 2,  こうして refers specifically to 弁当まで持って.


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## Starfrown

rukiak said:


> As for 2, こうして refers specifically to 弁当まで持って.


Yes, I suppose it would have to, wouldn't it?  

Now that I reflect upon it, my revised translation still leaves open the possibility that she had been to the river bed before in the hot season.  Well, I suppose I'll just have to give a re-revised translation:

"I had been in the early spring to see the snipes, but it was the first time I had gone in the hot season--let alone in this manner, taking [along] a box lunch."

Unfortunately, "at that" no longer sounded natural to me, but "let alone" works similarly well to get the idea across I think.


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## Yabanjin

Starfrown said:


> I considered this translation, but had trouble making it work because, as Wishfull made explicit in his post, it must be clear that the narrator had never been to the river bed before in the hot season. Flaminius' suggestion with "at that" captures it perfectly, I think.


But I wasn't trying to translate the sentence, I was trying to explain what the "made" meant. In your first post, 


> In other words, a box lunch is the most she has ever ventured to take in the hot season. Am I right?


you had misunderstood that.


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## Starfrown

Yabanjin said:


> But I wasn't trying to translate the sentence, I was trying to explain what the "made" meant. In your first post, you had misunderstood that.


Ah, now I see.  You were translating only that fragment.

おゆるしを


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