# I saved money on electricity this month.



## Abu Talha

Hello,

How would you translate "save" in the sentence, "I saved money on electricity this month."
EDIT: This means that possibly by being careful in my electricity usage, I was able to able to limit the amount of electric energy I consumed and thus, when I received my bill at the end of the month, it was for less money than what I am accustomed to being charged. 

Here is a thread which suggests توفير for saving time.
The town got bypassed just to save 10 minutes of driving. 

Does it also work here for saving money. I thought توفير meant to make something available, but perhaps it means that once you have saved it from being spent, it is now available for other purposes? محمد العدناني in his معجم الأغلاط اللغوية does not like the sentence:

فلانٌ بخيلٌ ويُوفِّر كثيرا النَّفَقَةَ على عِياله and says the correct way to say it is يُقَتِّرُ على عياله or يُقَلِّلُ النفقة على عياله.

He says:





			
				معجم الأغلاط اللغوية لمحمد العدناني said:
			
		

> أما جملة وَفَّرَ النفقة فمعناها :كَثَّرَها. وإذا كان غير مسرفٍ في النفقة وغير مُقَتِّرٍ، قلنا: هو مقتصد في الإنفاق.


So if I say, وَفَّرْت مالا كثيرا على الكهرباء هذا الشهر would this mean that I made much money available to the electricity [company] this month, i.e., an unidiomatic way of saying that I spent too much on electricity?

Thanks.


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## barkoosh

One way to put it is to say: وفّرتُ المال من فاتورة الكهرباء هذا الشهر

Although the original meaning of وفّر is "make abundant", this verb is used in MSA to mean:
1. make available (as you said)
2. save by spending less (True, العدناني doesn't like it. But it's common.)

I don't think that anybody today would understand the expression "وفّر المال" to mean "make abundant". It means now "make available" (as in وفّر المال للمشروع) or "save" (as in وفّر المال للذهاب في عطلة).


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## Abu Talha

barkoosh said:


> One way to put it is to say: وفّرتُ المال من فاتورة الكهرباء هذا الشهر


Thank you very much Barkoosh. Using the preposition من seems like a good way to remove all ambiguity.


> 2. save by spending less (True, العدناني doesn't like it. But it's common.)


Purely as an exercise, what would say would be the closest way to express saving money from a Classical Arabic perspective. I understand that the concept may be foreign to classical Arabic as they didn't have monthly bills back then, but given the original meanings of the words, would احتفظت ببعض المال مما كان علي من حساب الكهرباء be viable?

I also remember a story about Abu Bakr رضي الله عنه where it is said that his wife saved up some money so that she could make a sweet dish, and Abu Bakr then decreased his allowance from the treasury by that amount. I can't find this report in Arabic, or find a reference to any text or for it so I don't know about its authenticity, but does anyone remember reading this? Here is an English version:


> Once Abu Bakr's (Radhiyallaho anho) wife said to him:
> 
> "I would like to have a sweet dish."
> Abu Bakr: "I have no money to arrange for the dish."
> 
> His wife: "If you permit, I shall try to save something daily from our allowance, which will some day make enough to enable us to prepare the sweet dish."
> He agreed. A little money was saved in many days. When his wife brought him the money to make purchases for the sweet dish, he said:
> 
> "It seems that we have received so much over and above our needs."
> 
> He deposited the saving in the Bait-ul-Mal and for the future got his allowance cut down by the amount saved by his wife.
> Source: http://www.fazaileamaal.com/1303_bakr_baitulmal.htm


I suppose "saving up for something" is different from "saving on something" but it may still be relevant.


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## barkoosh

The Arabic verb used for "save" in this story is اقتصد

Accordingly, you may say:
اقتصدت في مصروف الكهرباء هذا الشهر


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## Abu Talha

barkoosh said:


> The Arabic verb used for "save" in this story is اقتصد
> 
> Accordingly, you may say:
> اقتصدت في مصروف الكهرباء هذا الشهر


That's excellent research, thanks very much Barkoosh! If I may draw upon your kindness further, given that the original meaning of اقتصد is to be frugal, how could one use it with a specific amount of money, especially, if one wasn't really frugal, but the savings just happened to fall in his lap. For instance, say you go to the store and see that they have a "buy 1 get 1 free" deal on pencils. Could you say

ذهبت إلى الدكان ووجدتهم يبيعون قلمين بسعر قلمٍ فأخذتُ به فاقتصدتُ من ثلاثة دراهم

By the way, does احتفظ seem extremely out of place to you?

Thanks again for all your help.


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## إسكندراني

I have become quite wary of these معاجم الأخطاء الشائعة , they sometimes seem to criticise structures which seem to have no viable alternative and which are used almost universally.


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## Abu Talha

إسكندراني said:


> I have become quite wary of these معاجم الأخطاء الشائعة , they sometimes seem to criticise structures which seem to have no viable alternative and which are used almost universally.


Heh, yeah, I guess I've quoted them too much here! Actually محمد العدناني has been critiqued  for his methodology.

But I've come to check up every new word I come across (whose usage doesn't match classical definitions) in his dictionaries, so sometimes I discuss what I find here. However, I'd like to say that most of these discussions have only theoretical value. MSA as used and understood is what it is. I just like to document any possible "errors" from a prescriptive viewpoint in my personal notes and have possible alternatives that may be more "correct".


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## barkoosh

Abu Talha said:


> ذهبت إلى الدكان ووجدتهم يبيعون قلمين بسعر قلمٍ فأخذتُ به فاقتصدتُ من ثلاثة دراهم


I've never seen the verb اقتصد used with a specific amount of money! I would say وفّرت ثلاثة دراهم instantly.


Abu Talha said:


> By the way, does احتفظ seem extremely out of place to you?


احتفظ means "keep"; it doesn't convey the same idea.


إسكندراني said:


> I have become quite wary of these معاجم الأخطاء الشائعة , they sometimes seem to criticise structures which seem to have no viable alternative and which are used almost universally.


Tell me about it!


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## Abu Talha

barkoosh said:


> I've never seen the verb اقتصد used with a specific amount of money! I would say وفّرت ثلاثة دراهم instantly.


I found in لسان العرب





			
				لسان العرب: وفر said:
			
		

> ووَفَرَه عِرْضَه ووَفَّره له: لم يَشْتِمْه كأَنه أَبقاه له كثيراً طيباً لم يَنْقُصْه بشتم؛


Also I see that محمد العدناني had mentioned it too, but I had missed it in my first reading. So perhaps one could use it for money too..
Thanks everyone for all your help.


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## إسكندراني

But what does يشتم supposed to mean then if it says لم ينقصه بشتم? I looked it up and only found سبّ=شتم


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## Abu Talha

إسكندراني said:


> But what does يشتم supposed to mean then if it says لم ينقصه بشتم? I looked it up and only found سبّ=شتم


I understand شتم to mean "to revile someone". So if we substitute مال (wealth) for عرض (honor), and إنفاق (spending) for شتم (reviling), then we could say

ووَفَرَه مالَه ووَفَّره له: لم يُنْفِقْهُ كأَنه أَبقاه له كثيراً طيباً لم يَنْقُصْه بإنفاق؛

So thus it could mean, "He saved his (someone else's) money: He did not spend it as if he were causing it to remain in abundance and goodness [and] he did not decrease it by spending it."

From here it is once step to changing "someone else" to "oneself". Kind of convoluted, I know, but do you think it works?


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## إسكندراني

Is اللسان really the only source on classical arabic usage? The only classical search engine I know of is الباحث العربي but maybe there are other places we can look so we don't have to tire ourselves out finding a way to connect اللسان to modern usage...


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## Abu Talha

إسكندراني said:


> Is اللسان really the only source on classical arabic usage? The only classical search engine I know of is الباحث العربي but maybe there are other places we can look so we don't have to tire ourselves out finding a way to connect اللسان to modern usage...


I guess ideally I should look up all sources, but from what little I've read, I've found اللسان to usually cover what the other dictionaries in baheth.info have. 

I know that تاج العروس is supposed to be even more comprehensive but sadly its online version on sakhr.com has been dead for a few months now (at least for me). There is a scanned version here http://archive.org/details/alhelawy09 but wading through it is time-consuming...

Lane has an Arabic-English lexicon based on التاج but it is only complete until the letter ق I think, and beyond that only has very little information in its entries. Here are some good sites to access it:
http://www.tyndalearchive.com/tabs/lane/
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper...:perseus,work,Lane, An Arabic-English Lexicon

---
By the way, I also found the verb أحرز which may also be relevant but I would like to research it a bit more before formulating a post.

Lastly, I'd just like to say that at this point I'm not trying to say what should or shouldn't be MSA, but just trying to do some academic research into Classical Arabic with the advice and guidance of the very helpful collaborators here, whose help is much appreciated.


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## barkoosh

I need to make this correction regarding the word اقتصد as used by Abu Bakr's wife. While reading the whole story in Arabic, it became obvious to me that this is a modern paraphrasing of the actual story (for example نفقتنا اليومية is definitely modern). I then found that the story in Arabic is taken from a book called عظماؤنا في التاريخ, which tells the stories in a modern, comprehensible way.

I can't find the original story in Arabic, but I can say that Abu Bakr's wife didn't use the word اقتصد, since even this word has "save" as modern meaning. The original meaning of اقتصد is لم يسرف ولم يقتر (that is, being moderate).


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## Abu Talha

barkoosh said:


> I need to make this correction regarding the word اقتصد as used by Abu Bakr's wife. While reading the whole story in Arabic, it became obvious to me that this is a modern paraphrasing of the actual story (for example نفقتنا اليومية is definitely modern). I then found that the story in Arabic is taken from a book called عظماؤنا في التاريخ, which tells the stories in a modern, comprehensible way.
> 
> I can't find the original story in Arabic, but I can say that Abu Bakr's wife didn't use the word اقتصد, since even this word has "save" as modern meaning. The original meaning of اقتصد is لم يسرف ولم يقتر (that is, being moderate).


Thanks very much Barkoosh for your diligence and research.


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## Abu Talha

Hello, I've been trying to read up on the verb أحرز and I was wondering if you could help me with your valued opinions regarding what I found.

لسان العرب says regarding أحرز :


			
				لسان العرب:حرز said:
			
		

> يقال: أَحْرَزْت الشيء أُحْرِزُه إِحْرازاً إِذا حفظته وضممته إِليك وصُنْتَه عن الأَخذ.
> ...
> ومن أَمثالهم فيمن طَمِع في الربح حتى فاته رأْس المال قولهم: واحَرَزَا وأَبْتَغِي النَّوافِلا يريد واحَرَزَاهُ، فَحَذف وقد اختلف فيه؛
> وفي حديث الصدّيق، رضي الله عنه: أَنه كان يُوتِرُ من أَوّل الليل ويقول: وَاحَرَزا وأَبْتَغِي النَّوافلا ويروى: أَحْرزتُ نَهْبِي وأَبْتَغِي النوافلا؛ يريد أَنه قضى وتره وأَمِن فَواتَه وأَحْرَز أَجْره، فإِن استيقظ من الليل تَنَفَّل، وإِلا فقد خرج من عُهْدة الوتر.
> والحَرَز، بفتح الحاء: المُحْرَز، فَعَل بمعنى مُفْعَل، والأَلفُ في واحَرَزَا مُنْقَلبةٌ عن ياءِ الإِضافة كقولهم: يا غلاما أَقْبِل، في يا غلامي.
> ...
> وفي حديث الزكاة لا تأُخذوا من حَرَزات أَموال الناس شيئاً أَي من خيارِها، هكذا روي بتقديم الراء على الزاي، وهي جمع حَرْزة، بسكون الراء، وهي خيار المال لأَن صاحبَها يُحْرِزها ويصونها، والروايةُ المشهورةُ بتقديم الزاي على الراء، وقد تقدم ذكره في موضعه.
> 
> Source: http://www.baheth.info/all.jsp?term=حرز


I didn't understand the proverb about the principal sum and the risk in business, but perhaps it is relevant?
And in سنن الترمذي:


			
				سنن الترمذي said:
			
		

> حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ مُوسَى الْبَصْرِيُّ، حَدَّثَنَا جَعْفَرُ بْنُ سُلَيْمَانَ الضُّبَعِيُّ، عَنْ أَبِي عِمْرَانَ الْجَوْنِيِّ، عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ الصَّامِتِ، عَنْ أَبِي ذَرٍّ، قَالَ قَالَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ يَا أَبَا ذَرٍّ أُمَرَاءُ يَكُونُونَ بَعْدِي يُمِيتُونَ الصَّلاَةَ فَصَلِّ الصَّلاَةَ لِوَقْتِهَا فَإِنْ صُلِّيَتْ لِوَقْتِهَا كَانَتْ لَكَ نَافِلَةً وَإِلاَّ كُنْتَ قَدْ أَحْرَزْتَ صَلاَتَكَ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ وَفِي الْبَابِ عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ مَسْعُودٍ وَعُبَادَةَ بْنِ الصَّامِتِ ‏.‏ قَالَ أَبُو عِيسَى حَدِيثُ أَبِي ذَرٍّ حَدِيثٌ حَسَنٌ ‏.‏ وَهُوَ قَوْلُ غَيْرِ وَاحِدٍ مِنْ أَهْلِ الْعِلْمِ يَسْتَحِبُّونَ أَنْ يُصَلِّيَ الرَّجُلُ الصَّلاَةَ لِمِيقَاتِهَا إِذَا أَخَّرَهَا الإِمَامُ ثُمَّ يُصَلِّي مَعَ الإِمَامِ وَالصَّلاَةُ الأُولَى هِيَ الْمَكْتُوبَةُ عِنْدَ أَكْثَرِ أَهْلِ الْعِلْمِ ‏.‏ وَأَبُو عِمْرَانَ الْجَوْنِيُّ اسْمُهُ عَبْدُ الْمَلِكِ بْنُ حَبِيبٍ ‏.‏
> Abu Dharr narrated that: the Prophet said: "O Abu Dharr! There will be leaders after me who cause the Salat to die; so perform the Salat during its time. If you pray (with them) during its time, then that will be voluntary Salat for you, if not, then you will have attained your Salat."
> Source: http://sunnah.com/urn/701760


So my question, is أحرز still understood with the above meaning in MSA?
Secondly, how do the following sentences sound:

اقتصدتُ في استعمالي الأجهزة الكهربائية هذا الشهر فأحرزت بعض المال في مصروف الكهرباء.
ذهبت إلى الدكان ووجدتهم يبيعون قلمين بسعر قلمٍ فأخذتُ به فأحرزتُ ثلاثة دراهم.

They both employ the صنته عن الأخذ meaning found in اللسان.

Thank you.


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## إسكندراني

I think there is a thread on أحراز \ حرز \ أحرز somewhere  hopefully this previous discussion is helpful. It's still widely used; أحراز القضية is a legal term, أحرز هدفًا is used in football, etc.


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## barkoosh

While I didn't understand the proverb either, all I can say is that this meaning of أحرز is unfamiliar to me. That verb means today نال or كسب. That's why I feel that using أحرز in those two examples is very awkward, esp. when I realize that using the word وفّر can convey the correct meaning without brainstorming.


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## Abu Talha

Thanks Iskenderany, Barkoosh. I think what you both say makes much sense. أحرز هدفًا (MSA) and أحرزت نهبي (Classical) are both comparable as in acquiring and preserving something. Like "to clinch a deal".

Just conjecture here but perhaps the meaning of the proverb is that the person is telling himself to at least recover his capital before shooting for large gains.


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## Ali Smith

barkoosh said:


> One way to put it is to say: وفّرتُ المال من فاتورة الكهرباء هذا الشهر



If you are translating "I saved money on electricity this month." wouldn't the following have worked?

وفّرتُ مالاً من فاتورة الكهرباء هذا الشهر

Why insert لام التعريف? What's wrong with مالاً?


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## barkoosh

It's way better without أل التعريف. Thanks for drawing my attention to it.


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## Ali Smith

Thanks. But what would it mean with لام التعريف?

وفّرتُ المال من فاتورة الكهرباء هذا الشهر
وفّرتُ مالًا من فاتورة الكهرباء هذا الشهر

Would there be a significant difference in meaning?


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## barkoosh

It would then mean "this money".


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## ayed

Ali Smith said:


> Thanks. But what would it mean with لام التعريف?
> 
> وفّرتُ المال من فاتورة الكهرباء هذا الشهر
> وفّرتُ مالًا من فاتورة الكهرباء هذا الشهر
> 
> Would there be a significant difference in meaning?


المال= specific amount of money known to you (in mind)
مالاً= any amount of money, as usual


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## Ali Smith

But couldn't المال in وفّرتُ المال من فاتورة الكهرباء هذا الشهر refer to money in general? E.g. يحبّ المال 'He loves money (in general).', يكره المال 'He hates money (in general).' I don't think you could say يحبّ مالًا or يكره مالًا, could you?


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## Mahaodeh

Yes it could. I don’t think that there is much difference in meaning in this particular context.


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