# με τη γης



## jcot05

Hi,

I am currently reading (at least trying to) Alexis Zorba :

« Κρέμασα πάλι τη λάμπα στη θέση της, κοίταζα το Ζορμπά να δουλεύει. Δίνουνταν όλος στη δουλειά, δεν είχε τίποτα άλλο στο νου του, γίνουνταν ένα *με τη γης*, με τον κασμά, με το κάρβουνο. »

Which I think translates into : « I hung back the torch in its place, I was looking at Zorba working. He was all work, he didn't had anything else in mind, he was one with the earth, with the pickaxe, with charcoal. »

Why the use of the genitive « γης » after to « με »? It seems to me that « κασμά » and « κάρβουνο » are accusatives. 

Ευχαριστώ !


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## dmtrs

jcot05 said:


> Why the use of the genitive « γης » after to « με »? It seems to me that « κασμά » and « κάρβουνο » are accusatives.



Your translation is correct and you are absolutely right to wonder.
The 'correct' form is η γη - της γης - τη(ν) γη.
But there is also the form η γης - της γης - τη(ν) γης, that you can find in demotika (folk songs), in literature or in very 'folk' (or 'folk-ish') speech.


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## jcot05

Thank you dmtrs!
Indeed I find in this book a lot of words with a different spelling than the one I know (and sometimes i don't recognize the word…). The same goes for the forms (and I didn't realized at first, I guess I've grown used to it!) : Δίνουνταν (δινόταν ?), γίνουνταν (γινόταν ?)... for the imperfective. Are those still in use ? I realize they could be easily mistaken for the plural (or at least, I could easily mistake them for it…)


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## dmtrs

Many variants are in use for lots of words; many times in different regions of Greece people have their own forms.
e.g. _ήταν(ε)_ (3rd person plural of _είμαι_) can also be found (most usually in spoken language) as _ήσαν(ε), ήσαντε, ήντουσαν..._
Kazantzakis uses a lot of this kind of words; many of them are dated, others rather rare even in his time or even invented (I suspect) to sound folk-ish. This is why -in spite of his literary quality- I don't recommend his books to people that still learn the language, not only foreigners but Greek students that need to build their vocabulary and style through literature also.


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## jcot05

Thanks for the clarification. I'd probably would't have started reading this book if I knew this !


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## Helleno File

jcot05 said:


> Thanks for the clarification. I'd probably would't have started reading this book if I knew this !


Me too, though to be honest I've hardly tried. It just feels like a challenge - "because it's there", as the mountain climbers say.

Μπράβο jcot05!


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## dmtrs

jcot05 said:


> Thanks for the clarification. I'd probably would't have started reading this book if I knew this !



You're welcome, jcot05.
But since you've started, I wouldn't like to be the cause of (or excuse for) you quitting it!
Kazantzakis is a great writer, nevertheless.


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## Παντελής

jcot05 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am currently reading (at least trying to) Alexis Zorba :
> 
> « Κρέμασα πάλι τη λάμπα στη θέση της, κοίταζα το Ζορμπά να δουλεύει. Δίνουνταν όλος στη δουλειά, δεν είχε τίποτα άλλο στο νου του, γίνουνταν ένα *με τη γης*, με τον κασμά, με το κάρβουνο. »
> 
> Which I think translates into : « I hung back the torch in its place, I was looking at Zorba working. He was all work, he didn't had anything else in mind, he was one with the earth, with the pickaxe, with charcoal. »
> 
> Why the use of the genitive « γης » after to « με »? It seems to me that « κασμά » and « κάρβουνο » are accusatives.
> 
> Ευχαριστώ !


NOT accusatives at all... (γίνουνταν ένα *με τη γης*, με τον κασμά, με το κάρβουνο) All it means is that, Zorba ensures all his effort with his entire mind in what he was doing which was the pickaxe to dig the coal out; He was stuck on earth like the racing car tyre sticks on the road at a very high speed

In other words, Zorba was sticked to his guns


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## Perseas

Παντελής said:


> NOT accusatives at all... (γίνουνταν ένα *με τη γης*, με τον κασμά, με το κάρβουνο)


But the nouns are in accusative case.


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## bearded

Παντελής said:


> NOT accusatives at all






jcot05 said:


> γίνουνταν ένα


Does the neuter 'ena' mean ''one thing'' here? (he became ''one thing with/the same thing as..''). I'm sure it can't be masculine accusative, but I also find that ''_he was one with the earth.._'' is a rather free translation (as if it were 'enas/eis').


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## jcot05

"he became / was becoming one with the earth", yes, I just thought the direct translation didn't fit well in english that's why I used a more free interpretation (but I'm no english expert…).

As for "ενα", I admit I don't know… I would have guessed it is indeed masculine (or neuter) accusative. But then, shouldn't we say "γίνουνταν ένα*ς*" (speaking of Zorba) ?


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## bearded

jcot05 said:


> I would have guessed it is indeed masculine (or neuter) accusative.


But normally,  verbs that mean 'to be/to become' are followed by the nominative case (predicate of the subject). This is valid for all languages possessing cases, to my knowledge… That's why I surmise it is neuter ('one thing'). I hope that natives will confirm.


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## Acestor

γίνουνταν ένα με τη γης, με τον κασμά, με το κάρβουνο = he became one with the earth, the pick and the coal.

“ένα” in the phrase “γίνομαι ένα” is, as already mentioned, the nominative case of the neuter pronoun, in the same way that one would say “έγινε άλλος άνθρωπος” (nominative, masculine). Bearded has also mentioned the rule about verbs that mean “to be/to become”.

“γης” in “γίνουνταν ένα με τη γης” is, like “κασμά”,  in the accusative case since it comes after the preposition “με”.

I’m afraid Παντελής has stirred a needless discussion, but I suspect that, when he said “not accusatives at all”, he was thinking of “accusative” in some non-grammatical sense (_accusatory?_).


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## bearded

Thank you, Acestor.


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## Perseas

jcot05 said:


> « Κρέμασα πάλι τη λάμπα στη θέση της, κοίταζα το Ζορμπά να δουλεύει. Δίνουνταν όλος στη δουλειά, δεν είχε τίποτα άλλο στο νου του, γίνουνταν ένα *με τη γης*, με τον κασμά, με το κάρβουνο. »
> 
> Which I think translates into : « I hung back the torch in its place, I was looking at Zorba working. He was all work, he didn't had anything else in mind, he was one with the earth, with the pickaxe, with charcoal. »


I found a translation of Kazantzakis' book online for anybody interested. Here's the relevant part:
_I hung the lamp up again on the nail and watched Zorba work. He was completely absorbed in his task; he thought of nothing else; he was *one with the earth, the pick and the coal.*_
Full text of "Nikos Kazantzakis Zorba The Greek"


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## Perseas

jcot05 said:


> But then, shouldn't we say "γίνουνταν ένα*ς*" (speaking of Zorba) ?


That's true. We could say "έγινε ένας e.g. διαφορετικός άνθρωπος". >> Here "ένας" is an indefinite article.
But "γίνομαι *ένα με*+ Χ (acc.)" is an expression and, as was already mentioned, the pronoun "ένα" is nominative singular neuter.

Ι think "to blend in/into" translates well the Greek expression.
"blend in":_To look the same as, or similar to, someone or something._
Example: _Security men were trying to blend in with the crowd._
blend in (phrasal verb) definition and synonyms | Macmillan Dictionary


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## jcot05

Thanks Perseas ! Everything's clear.


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