# voivani/oltavani



## 盲人瞎馬

"Ongelma on siinä, että menin myöntämään tämän eräälle ystävälleni (joka on siis tyttö, ei tietenkään enää normaali), jolle luulin *voivani *kertoa tällaiset asiat ihan normaalisti..."

Everything goes alright until I get to the voivani part. This is a construction that I've seen quite often lately. I suppose "voivani" is the active present participle of voida +ni, but when I try to understand what it means, I fail miserably.

A related phrase would be "Hän kertoi että _oltavani_ vielä pahenisi asteittain."

I need enlightenment, what does it mean to attach a possessive suffix to a participle?
I thought about using the search engine but I couldn't think of any keyword that could help me.

Thanks.


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## Gavril

Vitalore said:


> "Ongelma on siinä, että menin myöntämään tämän eräälle ystävälleni (joka on siis tyttö, ei tietenkään enää normaali), jolle luulin *voivani *kertoa tällaiset asiat ihan normaalisti..."
> 
> Everything goes alright until I get to the voivani part. This is a construction that I've seen quite often lately. I suppose "voivani" is the active present participle of voida +ni, but when I try to understand what it means, I fail miserably.



This construction is called _lauseenvastike_ and involves the participial forms of the verb, plus the genitive of the verb's subject (which is sometimes a possessive suffix). Here are some other examples of the construction:

_Luulen pystyväni juoksemaan maratonin _"I think I can run the marathon"

_Hän väittää Pekan olleen juhlissa sillä illalla _"He claims that Pekka was at a party that night"

_Odotan voittojen kasvavan tulevana vuonna _"I expect that profits will grow in the coming year."



> A related phrase would be "Hän kertoi että _oltavani_ vielä pahenisi asteittain."



This is a different construction than the one in the other sentence. In this case, the noun is _oltavat _"condition, state" + _-ni _= "the state I am in".



> I need enlightenment, what does it mean to attach a possessive suffix to a participle?
> I thought about using the search engine but I couldn't think of any keyword that could help me.



The keyword _lauseenvastike _should give you a great deal of results on the pattern in the first sentence.


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## Grumpy Old Man

Gavril said:


> _Hän väittää Pekan olleen juhlissa sillä illalla _"He claims that Pekka was at a party that night"


_Sillä illalla_ is incorrect. It should be _sinä iltana._


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## Grumpy Old Man

A related phrase would be "Hän kertoi että _oltavani_ vielä pahenisi asteittain."

_Oltavani _is wrong. I'm not sure, but I think you want to say: _Hän kertoi, että *oloni/vointini* vielä pahenisi asteittain._


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## 盲人瞎馬

Hän sanoi, että olen...
Hän sanoi olevani...

Hän sanoi, että olin...
Hän sanoi olleeni...

Do these mean the same? Is the participle + possessive suffix a way to exclude the use of että?


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## Hakro

Grumpy Old Man said:


> _Oltavani _is wrong. I'm not sure, but I think you want to say: _Hän kertoi, että *oloni/vointini* vielä pahenisi asteittain._


_Oltavani_ is not necessarily wrong:
_- Hän kertoi että oltavani vielä pahenisi asteittain_ = He told me that my circumstances would become even worse / I would be even worse off.
- _Hän kertoi, että oloni/vointini vielä pahenisi asteittain_ = He told me that my condition / state of health would be even worse / I would be feeling even worse.


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## Hakro

Vitalore said:


> Hän sanoi, että olen...
> Hän sanoi olevani...
> 
> Hän sanoi, että olin...
> Hän sanoi olleeni...
> 
> Do these mean the same? Is the participle + possessive suffix a way to exclude the use of että?


You've got the right idea but please note the difference depending on the subject of the sentence:

Minä sanoin, että olen... --> Minä sanoin olevani...
Sinä sanoit, että olet... --> Sinä sanoit olevasi... 
Hän sanoi, että (minä) olen... --> Hän sanoi minun olevan... (different subject, pronoun is needed, no possessive suffix)

I hope this helps. If not, please ask again.


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## 盲人瞎馬

Hakro said:


> You've got the right idea but please note the difference depending on the subject of the sentence:
> 
> Minä sanoin, että olen... --> Minä sanoin olevani...
> Sinä sanoit, että olet... --> Sinä sanoit olevasi...
> Hän sanoi, että (minä) olen... --> Hän sanoi minun olevan... (different subject, pronoun is needed, no possessive suffix)
> 
> I hope this helps. If not, please ask again.



Thanks, that's very helpful.
Would the 3rd person plural be "Hän sanoi heidän olev*ien*..." or olevan nonetheless? Does that construction exist only with the active participles (-va/vä -nut/nyt) or you can do something similar with the passive ones as well?
In order words, is there such thing as "sinä sanoit olluni" (from oltu) and "sinä sanoit oltavani" (from oltava)?
Bear with me, I'm trying to explain this as simply as possible without complicating what's already complicated by nature.


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## Hakro

Vitalore said:


> Would the 3rd person plural be "Hän sanoi heidän olev*ien*..." or olevan nonetheless?


"Hän sanoi minun / sinun / hänen / meidän / teidän / heidän olev*an*..."


> Does that construction exist only with the active participles (-va/vä  -nut/nyt) or you can do something similar with the passive ones as well?


Maybe you know that the Finnish passive is not a real passive, only the subject is not mentioned. For example:

- He said that in Brazil people are happy for the lady president.
Either in active form:
"Hän sanoi ihmisten Brasiliassa *olevan* iloisia naispresidentistä." 
Or in passive form:
"Hän sanoi Brasiliassa *oltavan* iloisia naispresidentistä." 

You can also say it in past tense:
Either in active form:
"Hän sanoi ihmisten Brasiliassa *olleen* iloisia naispresidentistä." 
Or in passive form:
"Hän sanoi Brasiliassa *ollun* iloisia naispresidentistä." (this is correct but extremely rare)


> In order words, is there such thing as "sinä sanoit olluni" (from oltu) and "sinä sanoit oltavani" (from oltava)?


No possessive suffix here.

Note that it may be good to recognize these forms when you're reading Finnish, but when you're speaking or writing yourself you can always use "että" and simpler verb forms.


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## 盲人瞎馬

Such detailed explanations are always highly appreciated.
Thank you.


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