# how many syllables, on average a verb has?



## zzzwor

How can I make statistics of how many syllables a Japanese verb has? 

I want to statistic *godan* and *ichdan* verbs, respectively and exclude all the する verbs.

The purpose for me to statistic it is to figure out the entropy of Japanese verbs.


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## gengo

zzzwor said:


> The purpose for me to statistic it is to figure out the entropy of Japanese verbs.



I don't understand what that means.  

Why would you want or need to know the average number of syllables in JP verbs?


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## zzzwor

information entropy, the ratio of morphemes to syllables


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## Joschl

Why don't you ask Japanese morphologists who work in quantitative linguistics for help?

I think the number of the morphemes in a Japanese verb with a monomorphemic stem will be considered to be two in the traditional school grammar. An inflected verb form can also have a stem extension such as "-_a_-" in "kak-_a_-", "-_i_-" in "ka(k)-_i_" or "-_re/e_-" in "mi-_re_-ba, kak-_e_-ba". The verb ending suffixes can also have form variants, such as "-yoo/-oo", "-ru/-u", "-te/-de", "-ta/-da", -tara/-dara", "-tari/-dari" or "-ro/-e". There are also morphologists who consider "-_y_-" in "-yoo", "-_r-_" in "-ru" to be stem extensions (i.e., "mi-_r_=u", "mi-_y_=oo"). It is theory dependent.

"mi=na(k)=i / kak-_a=_na(k)=i", etc. (=nu, =N)
"mi=yoo / kak=oo"
"mi=te / ka(k)-_i=t_e / ko(g)-_i_-de / yoN-de", etc. (=Ta, =Tara, =Tari)
"mi=ru / kak=u"
"mi-_re=_ba / kak-_e=_ba", etc. (=do)
"mi=ro / kak=e", etc.
(A verb root with or without a stem extension and the suffix "-na(k)-" create another polymorphemic verb stem. The archiphoneme /T/ stands for /t/ oder /d/, depending on the inflectional class that the verb belongs to.)

Japanese is traditionally considered to be a mora-counting language. Syllable bodies /((C)y)V/ with or without the pre-vocalic consonant(s) /C/ or /Cy/, the so-called "mora nasal" /N/(ん) and "mora obstruent" /Q/(っ) in the syllable coda are counted as one mora, respectively.


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## SoLaTiDoberman

Only the dictionary form.
Excluding compand verbs.
Excluding --する, --っている.

Two syllables are most common:
持つ　mo tsu (have)
食う ku u (eat)*       If you regard this as "kū," only one syllable verb does exist.
寝る ne ru (sleep)
飛ぶ to bu (fly)
聞く ki ku (listen)
這う ha u (crawl)
行く i ku (go)
引く hi ku (extract)
挽く hi ku (grind)
弾く hi ku (play)
見る mi ru (see)
死ぬ　shi nu (die)
etc.

Three:
食べる ta be ru (eat)
帰る ka e ru (go back)
学ぶ ma na bu (study)
習う na ra u (learn)
遊ぶ a so bu (play)
盗む nu su mu (steal)
歌う u ta u (sing)
なげる na ge ru (throw)
etc.

Four:
教える o si e ru (teach)
抗う a ra ga u (make registance to)
導く mi chi bi ku (lead)
おぼえる o bo e ru (memorize)
etc.

Five:
鑑みる ka n ga mi ru (take it into consideration)
etc.?

Six:
慮る o mo n ba ka ru (consider)  This might be a compaund verb, 思ん図る.
etc.?

I don't have any statistics or references, but in my impression, there is no verb with only one syllable.
Two syllable verbs are most common, followed by three, and sometimes four.
Five and six ones are very rare.
I can't think of seven or more right now.

My wild guess for the mean sillables of Japanese verbs would be 2.9-3.3, if I take a chance.
I gave up dividing them into the two groups, godan and ichidan though.


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## zzzwor

SoLaTiDoberman said:


> Only the dictionary form.
> Excluding compand verbs.
> Excluding --する, --っている.
> 
> Two syllables are most common:
> 持つ　mo tsu (have)
> 食う ku u (eat)*       If you regard this as "kū," only one syllable verb does exist.
> 寝る ne ru (sleep)
> 飛ぶ to bu (fly)
> 聞く ki ku (listen)
> 這う ha u (crawl)
> 行く i ku (go)
> 引く hi ku (extract)
> 挽く hi ku (grind)
> 弾く hi ku (play)
> 見る mi ru (see)
> 死ぬ　shi nu (die)
> etc.
> 
> Three:
> 食べる ta be ru (eat)
> 帰る ka e ru (go back)
> 学ぶ ma na bu (study)
> 習う na ra u (learn)
> 遊ぶ a so bu (play)
> 盗む nu su mu (steal)
> 歌う u ta u (sing)
> なげる na ge ru (throw)
> etc.
> 
> Four:
> 教える o si e ru (teach)
> 抗う a ra ga u (make registance to)
> 導く mi chi bi ku (lead)
> おぼえる o bo e ru (memorize)
> etc.
> 
> Five:
> 鑑みる ka n ga mi ru (take it into consideration)
> etc.?
> 
> Six:
> 慮る o mo n ba ka ru (consider)  This might be a compaund verb, 思ん図る.
> etc.?
> 
> I don't have any statistics or references, but in my impression, there is no verb with only one syllable.
> Two syllable verbs are most common, followed by three, and sometimes four.
> Five and six ones are very rare.
> I can't think of seven or more right now.
> 
> My wild guess for the mean sillables of Japanese verbs would be 2.9-3.3, if I take a chance.
> I gave up dividing them into the two groups, godan and ichidan though.



Thank you for sharing. The only reason I divide them into 一段 and 五段 is because I think they have different property in terms of length of phoneme. For example, the stem 食べ tabe has 2 syllables, but the stem 行く iku has 1.5 syllables because the vowel u is a placeholder which will change itself in different conditions, only the consonant k is constant here.

The last vowel of 五段 stem is like a valence electron in a molecule.


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## Joschl

I think that it is not at all unusual that the phonological boundaries and the morphological ones do not always coincide with each other.

The stem of the verbs belonging to the 五段 class end in a consonant, which can also disappear or change in some phonological environments (e.g. "kaw-/ka(_w_)-", "kak-/ka(_k_)-", "kog-/ko(_g_)-", "ik-/iQ-", "yob-/yoN-", etc.). The stem of the verbs belonging to the 一段 class end in either /i/ or /e/, which remains the same.

The items "-a-, -i-, -e-" or "-r-, -re-" following the verbal roots can be considered to be a part of the extended verbal stem (e.g. kak·a-na(k)-i/kak·i-mas-u/kak·e-ba, mi·r-u/mi·re-ba, etc.) or the part of the derivational/inflectional suffixes (e.g. kak-ana-i/kak-i·mas-u/kak-eba, mi-na-i/mi-mas-u/mi-reba/mi-ru). There are both opinions among the morphologists. No matter which position we take on this issue, the items between the verbal roots and the derivational/inflectional suffixes are morphologically relevant.


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## SoLaTiDoberman

動詞の五段活用と音便をマスターしよう



zzzwor said:


> For example, the stem 食べ tabe has 2 syllables, but the stem 行く iku has 1.5 syllables because the vowel u is a placeholder which will change itself in different conditions, only the consonant k is constant here.
> 
> The last vowel of 五段 stem is like a valence electron in a molecule.


The stem(語幹） of 行く should be 行(i）, not "ik." from a standard Japanese grammar viewpoint.

*行*か ナイ
*行*こ　ウ
*行*き マス
*行*く
*行*く　トキ
*行*け　バ


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## Joschl

SoLaTiDoberman said:
			
		

> The stem(語幹） of 行く should be 行(i）, not "ik." from a standard Japanese grammar viewpoint.


Right. But the traditional Japanese grammar is only one of the grammar concepts that have been developed for Japanese and we don't know what grammar underlies _zzzwor's_ analysis.
The segmentation practice in the framework of the traditional grammar also has to do with the mora-based kana script and the morphological boundaries and the phonological ones always coincide so morphological units remain pronounceable, except for the stem ending in /Q/<っ> where the morphological boundaries and the word boundaries do not coincide with each other (e.g. 行っ-て，行っ-た，行っ-たら，行っ-たり).


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## SoLaTiDoberman

行っとく　*itt*o
行った* itt*a
行ったり *itt*a
行って *itt*e
行か *ik*a
行く *ik*u
行こ *ik*o
行け *ik*e

@#9: As you mentioned above, I have more confidence that the common stem should be "i" not "ik,"  because of the "itt" version now.
Anyway, I don't know what's going on here. So I'll shut my mouth. Thanks!


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