# EN: negative question with subject-verb inversion



## chuann6

Hi,

A question : what would be the good Engklish way of saying : "les résultats n'atteignent-ils pas les objectifs de l'XYZ?

Do the results not arrive at the aims of  the XYZ?
... this is something that's bothered me for long... !


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## jann

We would use the standard syntax for a negative question in English. 

_Don't + subject + verb 

_Don't the results meet XYZ's objectives?


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## ascoltate

I see a subtle difference in meaning between:
"Do the results not... ?"
and "Don't the results... ?"

In the second case, you expect a positive answer ("Yes, you're right; they do!"), but not in the first case.


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## jann

ascoltate said:


> I see a subtle difference in meaning between:
> "Do the results not... ?"
> and "Don't the results... ?"
> 
> In the second case, you expect a positive answer ("Yes, you're right; they do!"), but not in the first case.


And it's exactly the same in French!   Chuann6's sentence is the second one, stated in the negative:  _les resultats n'atteingent-ils pas...? 

_To ask "do the results not meet the objectives" you would say _Est-ce que les résultats n'atteignent pas... ?  _And quite honestly, both the French and the English versions sound a bit awkward here!


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## ascoltate

jann said:


> And it's exactly the same in French!   Chuann6's sentence is the second one, stated in the negative:  _les resultats n'atteingent-ils pas...?
> 
> _To ask "do the results not meet the objectives" you would say _Est-ce que les résultats n'atteignent pas... ?  _And quite honestly, both the French and the English versions sound a bit awkward here!



I don't see the difference between the two French sentences - for me, the difference is one of register (inversion with a noun subject is _extremely_ formal, almost never occurring in unscripted speech (actually never occurring according to any sociolinguistic studies that have been done)), but not one of meaning.

But you are right that the sentence sounds a bit too awkward to even get to the next step about figuring out their intended meaning!...


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## itka

Jann, I'm afraid you were puzzled between english and french in these sentences. I agree with ascoltate : both sentences in french have the same meaning except for the register.

_"Les résultats n'atteignent-ils pas les objectifs ?"_
---> answer expected : yes.
_"Les résultats atteignent-ils les objectifs ?"_
---> answer expected : no.

But both can as well be true questions, at which one could answer yes or no...


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## jann

I think we're all confusing each other here, even though we are all saying essentially the same thing! 

I did not mean to imply that there was a difference in meaning between _Les résultats n'atteignent-ils pas ? _vs. _Est-ce que les résultats n'atteignent pas ?_ My post #4 was supposed to point out that we also have two possible structures in English, and that they differ in awkwardness.

The French inverted structure for an negative question is so polished that it belongs in a high/written register.  The English inverted structure (don't + subject) is polished but pefectly current.  

The French non-inverted structure for a negative question is less polished and therefore more current.  The English alternate stucture (do they not meet) is also less polished... to the point of being a bit awkward.

Both negative questions mean essentially the same thing and expect essentially the same answer... regardless of whether they are in French or in English.  

I misread Ascoltate's comment here:





ascoltate said:


> "Do the results not... ?"
> and "Don't the results... ?"
> In the second case, you expect a positive answer ("Yes, you're right; they do!"), but not in the first case.


Actually, I disagree.  I expect the same answer both times.

If am surprised, because I have always assumed that the objectives are being met, but someone has just suggested data to the contrary, I will say either:  "Wait, don't the results meet the objectives?!" or "Hold on, do the results not meet the objectives?!"  The second sentence might express slightly more surprise than the first, but both mean essentially the same thing and both expect that the person will either reply that he has mispoken ("No, sorry, I mispoke!  The results *do* meet the objectives.") or to tell me that I have indeed heard correctly ("No, unfortunately the results *do not* meet the objectives.")

I hope that's clearer.


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## CapnPrep

jann said:


> I hope that's clearer.


I am not sure what you mean by "polished"…

I agree that the most natural-sounding translation is "Don't the results meet the objectives?" but what about in a highly formal written register where one might prefer to avoid contractions? You can't say "Do not the results meet …" 

In that situation I would have no trouble writing "Do the results not meet the objectives?" As opposed to something like "Is it not the case that the results meet …"


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## timpeac

In English, for me, the difference is one of emphasis and register. A politician would say in a speech

And does not the economic success we have enjoyed justify the capital invested?

but the man on the street would say

don't the house price rises justify the investment?

The first, for me, is indicative of an oratory style. The first expects a postive reply but the second doesn't preclude it.


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## chuann6

Thank you all for the discussion which brought out interesting nuances. For me too, the idea essentially was don't they... but I thought one was obliged to say "do they not" and not "do not they"... 

this is a text on international relations and politics, so it is in a somewhat oratory-rhetorical style.


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## timpeac

chuann6 said:


> Thank you all for the discussion which brought out interesting nuances. For me too, the idea essentially was don't they... but I thought one was obliged to say "do they not" and not "do not they"...
> 
> this is a text on international relations and politics, so it is in a somewhat oratory-rhetorical style.


Careful - you can say "don't they" and "do they not" but not "do not they".

Edit - or if you can it is very unusual.


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## chuann6

Exactly my problem timpeac. 
So i guess i'm obliged to stick with "do the results not...", even if i want to say "don't the results...", as it is a formal academic text. This also confirms CapnPrep's reply.

Thanks a lot for the native speakers' ears...A la prochaine


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## geostan

timpeac said:


> Careful - you can say "don't they" and "do they not" but not "do not they".
> 
> Edit - or if you can it is very unusual.



I'm happy to see that you added your edit. Your first statement was a little too dogmatic. In fact, looking at Timpeac's example:

_ And does not the economic success we have enjoyed justify the capital invested?_

I can see a practical reason for placing the negative after _does_. The second part of the verb phrase is separated from the auxiliary by a rather lengthy noun phrase. By placing _not_ right after the auxiliary, it's clear from the start hat we are dealing with a negative question.

But I agree that this structure is relatively rare.


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## timpeac

geostan said:


> I'm happy to see that you added your edit. Your first statement was a little too dogmatic. In fact, looking at Timpeac's example:
> 
> _And does not the economic success we have enjoyed justify the capital invested?_
> 
> I can see a practical reason for placing the negative after _does_. The second part of the verb phrase is separated from the auxiliary by a rather lengthy noun phrase. By placing _not_ right after the auxiliary, it's clear from the start hat we are dealing with a negative question.
> 
> But I agree that this structure is relatively rare.


 Yes, when I gave the politician example earlier I meant (in retrospect a bit unclearly) to show that this wasn't something found in normal discourse (formal or otherwise). 

So I suppose in summary from normal, to formal, to markedly stilted -

Doesn't the xxx...
Does the xxx not....
Does not the xxx...


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