# こんにちは。私はヌノですそしてポルト住んでいます。



## nuno

こんにちは。私はヌノですそしてポルト住んでいます。

While I'm trying to memorize the characters I'm also trying to make meaningful sentences. Can anyone analyse this one?

ありがとう


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## Cereth

It says:
Konnichiwa, watashi ha tano desu soshite poruto sunde imasu....

translated: Hello, I´m tano, I live in Portugal...

ok, an observation: Portugal is ポルトガル and you have to say Portogaru "*ni*" sunde imasu...
I´m sorry no kanas in this computer...
mm..just one doubt you are tano or nuno?


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## Whodunit

Okay, let me try. 

こんにちは。 - ko n ni chi wa (= Hello)
私 - watashi (= I)
は - wa (= subject marker particle)
ヌノ - nuno (= your name)
です - desu (= to be in the present tense, like "ser" in Spanish)
そして - so shi te (= and)
ポルト - poruto (= Porto)
住ん - su n (= to live)
で - de (= locative particle)
います。 - imasu (= polite verb)

Your sentence means:
Hello, my name is Nuno and I'm living in Porto. I would write it like this:

こんにちは。私はヌノです然してポルト住んでいます。
こんにちは。わたしはぬのですそしてぽるとすんでいます。 (in hiragana only)

Hope it helps. 



nuno said:


> こんにちは。私はヌノですそしてポルト住んでいます。
> 
> While I'm trying to memorize the characters I'm also trying to make meaningful sentences. Can anyone analyse this one?
> 
> ありがとう


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## Whodunit

Cereth said:


> mm..just one doubt you are tano or nuno?


 
He wrote *ヌノ* and not *タノ*.


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## nuno

ポルト - poruto (= *Porto*) -- It's the city where I live  It's not porutogaru (Portugal)


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## Whodunit

nuno said:


> ポルト - poruto (= *Porto*) -- It's the city where I live  It's not porutogaru (Portugal)


 
Oops, we could have known that. Anyway, I'm going to edit my reply.


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## nuno

> ok, an observation: Portugal is ポルトガル and you have to say Portogaru "*ni*" sunde imasu...


So I guess the sentence should be like this:
こんいちは。　私はヌノですそしてポルト*に*すんでいます。 (I don't write with kanjis (only 私) because I don't have much knowledge in that area yet)


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## jorge_val_ribera

Daniel said:
			
		

> こんにちは。私はヌノです然して葡萄牙住んでいます。 (in kanji + hiragana)
> こんにちは。わたしはぬのですしかしてぶどうきばすんでいます。 (in hiragana only)




red: I think that would be read そして, not しかして. But kanji isn't generally used for そして, so it should just stay that way. 

green: Huh?


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## jorge_val_ribera

nuno said:


> So I guess the sentence should be like this:
> こんいちは。　私はヌノですそしてポルト*に*すんでいます。 (I don't write with kanjis (only 私) because I don't much knowledge in tat area yet)


 
The way I would write it (that doesn't mean that it's right, of course) would be:

私はヌノで、ポルトにすんでいます。

That is, joining both phrases into one sentence.


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## nuno

jorge_val_ribera said:


> The way I would write it (that doesn't mean that it's right, of course) would be:
> 
> 私はヌノで、ポルトにすんでいます。
> 
> That is, joining both phrases into one sentence.




Isn't す missing in  私はヌノで*す*、ポルトにすんでいます。?


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## Cereth

Whodunit said:


> He wrote *ヌノ* and not *タノ*.


 
oh sorry for misunderstanding!! This is what you get for posting fast and hiding from your boss!

Gomen ne!

And about Porto...well we always learn something new!!

No more fast posting!!!!


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## jorge_val_ribera

> Isn't す missing in 私はヌノで*す*、ポルトにすんでいます。?


 
No. です is only used at the end of a sentence. This で is joining the phrases together.


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## nuno

Hehe ok. We're always learning new things.


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## Whodunit

jorge_val_ribera said:


> red: I think that would be read そして, not しかして. But kanji isn't generally used for そして, so it should just stay that way.




I took the kanji form from here. Enter "soshite" and you'll see.  The stupid hiragana I wrote were just typos. I will correct it.



> green: Huh?


 
That was before I knew that nuno was refering to Porto. Strangely, I immedately thought of Portugal, just like Careth.


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## nuno

How could you not know the beautiful city of Porto?


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## jorge_val_ribera

Daniel, let me give you a little tip:

When you enter a word in that dictionary, you usually get some tags along with the translation. When you enter "soshite", this is what you get:

然して(P); 而して 【そして(P); しかして】 (conj) (uk) and; and then; thus; and now; (P) 

A tag there is (uk). That means "usually kana". In other words, that word is rarely written with kanji. It is much better to stick with kana in this case.


> green: Huh?
> 
> 
> 
> That was before I knew that nuno was refering to Porto. Strangely, I immedately thought of Portugal, just like Careth.
Click to expand...


I was only referring to the unusual kana you used (ぶどうきば).


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## nuno

I entered  然して in the j-talk.com/nihongo parser, and it gave me the romaji shikashite. Shouldn't it be soshite? Or is the parser wrong about that kanji?


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## s_a_n_t_i

jorge_val_ribera said:


> 私はヌノで、ポルトにすんでいます。



That's the best way to say it. With this pattern, you put two concepts together.

I.e.:
この椅子は大きくて便利だ。
_Kono isu wa, ookikute benrida.
_This chair is big and comfortable.

あのテレビは、高くてとても買えない。
_Ano terebi wa, takakute totemo kaenai._
That TV is very expensive, and I so can not buy it.

Notice how adjectives change 

*い形容詞*：　高い→高くて　大きい→大きくて
_I keiyoushi: Takai→Takakute Ookii→Ookikute_

*な形容詞*：　きれい→きれいで　便利→便利で
_NA keiyoushi: Kirei→Kireide Benri→Benride
_
And with です happens the same as NA Keiyoushi's. です→で.

But, If you want to write it as two separated sentences,
私（の名前）はヌノです。ポルトに住んでいます。
_Watashi (no namae) wa Nuno desu. Poruto ni sunde imasu.


_About 然して／そして , It's VERY rare to write it that way, I'd say no one nowadays write 然して. 
About 然し（て）／しかし（て）, the same, but I have seen it written that way, some few times.

Santi.


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## gaer

jorge_val_ribera said:


> Daniel, let me give you a little tip:
> 
> When you enter a word in that dictionary, you usually get some tags along with the translation. When you enter "soshite", this is what you get:
> 
> 然して(P); 而して 【そして(P); しかして】 (conj) (uk) and; and then; thus; and now; (P)


Shoot, Jorge, I did not see your post. I will delete mine (I was just writing it), but I want to mention that it's very important to click on examples when they are available, because those together with the main entry does much of what a dictionary does. The English translations are a bit clunky sometimes, and they are also sometimes too free, but they are very helpful. 

Gaer


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## Hiro Sasaki

http://d.hatena.ne.jp/keyword/%A5%AA%A5%DD%A5%EB%A5%C8

こんにちは、　私は　タノです。　オボルトに住んでいます。

こんにちは、　私は　オポルトに住んでいる　タノです。

The second largest city of Portural, O porto is known as オポルト　as far as
I know.  (with the definate article included ), although "the Hague in the Netherlands" is known as ハーグ。

Hiro Sasaki


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## cheshire

> こんにちは、　私は　タノです。　オボルトに住んでいます。
> 
> こんにちは、　私は　オポルトに住んでいる　タノです。
> 
> The second largest city of Portural, O porto is known as オポルト　as far as
> I know.


I doubt that. My maps and dictionaries said it ポルト and never "オボルト." Will you show us some source of it?


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## Hiro Sasaki

On google, we can see オポルト　but many people write  ポルト。

http://d.hatena.ne.jp/keyword/%A5%AA%A5%DD%A5%EB%A5%C8
”現在の地図では、ポルト(Porto)とも表記される。ポルトは、「港」という意味であり、混同を避けるため、都市を特定するときは、「オポルト(Oporto)」と呼ぶ。”　 ( 西洋語では
都市名には　通常　定冠詞は　つけないが　意味の混同を避けるため　定冠詞の
ついた　都市名があり、　定冠詞は　都市名の一部と考えられる。

http://search.yahoo.co.jp/search?p=...%C8&fr=top_v2&tid=top_v2&search.x=1&x=18&y=16

オポルト　is the name of the city, and ポルト　is used in Japan for the names of the theme park with the atmosphere of a European port city,  housing complexs near the coast 　and organizations and therefore, the number of
hits on Google does not mean much. 

Hiro Sasaki


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## nuno

The name of the city is *Porto*, Oporto is only used by English speakers, I guess.


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## Hiro Sasaki

Nudo

Porto Alegre, a city in the south of Brazil is not called O Porto Alegre.
O Porto in Portugal is the correct proper noun. Therefore, I would prefer 
to write オポルト。　" O " is a part of the proper noun.


Hiro Sasaki


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## cheshire

Thanks, Hiro Sasaki. It's just like Le havre ル・アーヴル　in France that means "the Port" in French.





> Oporto is only used by English speakers, I guess


That, too,  is interesting!


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## Flaminius

Ladies and gentlemen and other language lovers whose proper appellations escape my mind,

Could I prevail upon you to ask if the thread has accomplished its purpose, to wit, helping our fellow poster *Nuno* explain his name and place of residence in a Japanese sentence as simple as possible? If my assumption is confirmed, most of the posts in this second page are discussing an out-of-scope topic. In case fellow posters find more points to be discussed, refuted, reiterated or otherwise anent linguistic aspects of *Nuno*'s self-introduction, I request them to please step up to the podium and let others know what they have to say.    

Flaminius, Japanese Forum moderētā


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## gaer

Flaminius said:


> Ladies and gentlemen and other language lovers whose proper appellations escape my mind,
> 
> Could I prevail upon you to ask if the thread has accomplished its purpose, to wit, helping our fellow poster *Nuno* explain his name and place of residence in a Japanese sentence as simple as possible? If my assumption is confirmed, most of the posts in this second page are discussing an out-of-scope topic. In case fellow posters find more points to be discussed, refuted, reiterated or otherwise anent linguistic aspects of *Nuno*'s self-introduction, I request them to please step up to the podium and let others know what they have to say.
> 
> Flaminius, Japanese Forum moderētā


For me this topic would be useful if we could determine one fact.

Jorge and Santi suggested this:

私はヌノで、ポルトにすんでいます。

This was never confirmed as correct by any of our "natives" (Japanese members). It is always helpful to be told that we are right or wrong when those of us who are not Japanese make suggestions. 

Gaer


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## Flaminius

Okay, this is a very important point I have been thinking how to explain.

I suggest this "__ de, __ desu" construction not to be used in this context;
*私はヌノで、ポルトにすんでいます。

This sentence sounds to me that being Nuno is as mutable as living in Porto for the speaker (_watashi _or "I"), that is, it can be inferred that the speaker may be Bono living in New York other times, for example.  Using this construction for mutable attribute, however, is perfectly okay;
OK私は日本人で、鎌倉にすんでいます。
watashi-wa Nihonjin de, Kamakura-ni sunde imasu.
I am a Japanese and live in Kamakura.

For yours sincerely, being a Japanese is a more mutable attribute than being Flaminius.


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## Flaminius

On a second thought, "__ de, __ desu" construction seems to me a quasi-relative clause.  I label it as _quasi _because usual Japanese relative clauses are placed before the nouns they modify.

And I further think that this quasi-relative can be used only for restrictive content.

OK私は日本人で、鎌倉にすんでいます。
I am a Japanese who lives in Kamakura.
Alernatively, "I am a Japanese, living in Kamakura"

But *「私はFlaminiusで、鎌倉にすんでいます」 is ungrammatical just as *"I am Flaminius that lives in Kamakura" is.

Well, before starting to mumble a third thought, I shall let my case rest, however temporarily.

Flaminius


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## gaer

Flaminius said:


> On a second thought, "__ de, __ desu" construction seems to me a quasi-relative clause. I label it as _quasi _because usual Japanese relative clauses are placed before the nouns they modify.
> 
> And I further think that this quasi-relative can be used only for restrictive content.
> 
> OK私は日本人で、鎌倉にすんでいます。
> I am a Japanese who lives in Kamakura.
> Alernatively, "I am a Japanese, living in Kamakura"
> 
> But *「私はFlaminiusで、鎌倉にすんでいます」 is ungrammatical just as *"I am Flaminius that lives in Kamakura" is.
> 
> Well, before starting to mumble a third thought, I shall let my case rest, however temporarily.
> 
> Flaminius


I have an idea . Instead of using the construction suggested by others, if I start from scratch and express a simliar set of thoughts in English, think I might write this:

"My name is Gary, and I live in Coral Springs."

(This is really incomplete, but I don't want to add another clause, which would make it more complicated.)

I think the best solution and one that most of us would be most grateful for is ANY idiomatically correct solution that seems natural to those living in Japan!

So perhaps you and our other Japanese members could show us how they would write such a sentence.

(The complete sentence I would write would be: My name is Gary, and I live in Coral Springs, Florida—in the US.)

Gaer


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## cheshire

Flaminius, could you elaborate on "mutable attribute"? Your grammatical explanations are helpful and even for a native speaker, helpful. But sometimes your wordings are a bit too "GRE 3000.(no offense )"


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## Flaminius

Gary,
My name is Gary, and I live in Coral Springs.
私の名前はゲーリーです。コーラル・スプリングズに住んでいます。
watashi-no namae-wa Gary desu.  Coral Springs-ni sunde imasu.

Cheshire,
My point about mutable/immutable attributes is rather shaky (this is the reason I wrote a post on a second thought) but what I wanted to say was some attributes are permanent for the described noun in any conditions while others are mutable according to the possible conditions that the described might undergo.  

E.g., メアリーは学生で、横浜に住んでいます。
Mary is a student and lives in Yokohama.

Being a student is a mutable attribute of Mary.  Mary will be still Mary even if she graduates.  On the other hand, being Mary is an immutable attribute for her.  Mary is not Mary if she changes her name to Jane (philosophically she is still the same person, but linguistically she isn't). Therefore, "Mary de" construction is ungrammatical;
*私はメアリーで、横浜に住んでいます。
watashi-wa Mary de, Yokohama-ni sunde imasu.


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## cheshire

> Being a student is a mutable attribute of Mary. Mary will be still Mary even if she graduates. On the other hand, being Mary is an immutable attribute for her. Mary is not Mary if she changes her name to Jane (philosophically she is still the same person, but linguistically she isn't). Therefore, "Mary de" construction is ungrammatical;
> *私はメアリーで、横浜に住んでいます。
> watashi-wa Mary de, Yokohama-ni sunde imasu.


Is it really the issue here? Would it not rather be a stylistic issue? 

メアリーは学生で、横浜に住んでいます。

I have no problem with this sentence. But if it's in a formal text, it should be *better *for _a stylistic reason _to avoid that construction.


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## Flaminius

OK メアリーは学生で、横浜に住んでいます。 
* 私はメアリーで、横浜に住んでいます。

The former is okay since 学生 is a mutable attribute for Mary whereas the latter is ungrammatical since メアリー is immutable for 私.


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## cheshire

I'm sorry for the confusion on my part. Now it became all clear for me!


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## gaer

Flaminius said:


> Gary,
> My name is Gary, and I live in Coral Springs.
> 私の名前はゲーリーです。コーラル・スプリングズに住んでいます。
> watashi-no namae-wa Gary desu. Coral Springs-ni sunde imasu.


Thank you. Everyone seems to agree that it is best to express these ideas in two sentences. That is a help!

Gaer


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## Hiro Sasaki

gaer said:


> Thank you. Everyone seems to agree that it is best to express these ideas in two sentences. That is a help!
> 
> Gaer


 
Gaer san, there are Japanese sentences which sound very odd or very 
clumsy and others sounds  very slightly odd.

When we don't answer some questions, it is not too much due to our 
negligeance but it is difficult for us to explain why some sentences are
odd.  When many Japanese write the same seｎtnces slightly odd, I 
hesitate to point out that the sentences are odd.

The following sentences are good and logical. 

1. 私は　日本人で　東京に住んでいます。

２．　彼は軍人で　大佐です。

３．　彼は　臆病（おくびょう）で　馬鹿（ばか）です。

４．　彼女は　美人で　気立て（　きだて）がよい。

5. ジョンは　留学生（りゅうがくせい）で　横浜に住んでいます。　

The following asetences sounds slightly odd but some Japanese 
do not notice it　and say so. 

６．　彼は　アメリカ人で　ジョンです。
７. 彼は日本人で　兄弟が　５人います。

More and more, I believe that a foreign language is very difficult for 
everyone who is not the native speaker of a language.

Even if I can explain why each sentence is good or bad, it would 
need pages to explain them well.

There are also sentences which are between very good and slightly
odd.

Hiro Sasaki


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