# ha fatto sí che tra i possibili significati del termine figuri



## juji

Proprio questa coincidenza ha fatto sí che tra i possibili significati del termine figuri anche quelllo di “destino”: il destino non è infatti che una serie di eventi detti o predetti da una parola autorevole.

I'm really struggling to translate this. 

Context: about medieval texts - the 'term' being discussed is an ambiguous and obsolete word that was used to indicate the telling of a story through speech, a narration of a series of events.

I've tried, but I am not at all sure about 'sí', 'che' and 'figuri':

Exactly this coincidence has meant that between possible meanings of the term, *it is hardly surprising that *there is not that of “fate": fate is not in fact a series of events known or foretold by an authoritative speech. 

Could anyone help point me in the right direction?
Many thanks.


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## King Crimson

I would say something like this:

_Exactly this coincidence has meant that the possible meanings of the term also include that of “fate": fate is indeed (in fact?) nothing but a series of events known or foretold by an authoritative speech._

EDIT: "nothing but" instead of "not but"


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## bobes

juji said:


> Proprio questa coincidenza ha fatto sí che tra i possibili significati del termine figuri anche quelllo di “destino”: il destino non è infatti che una serie di eventi detti o predetti da una parola autorevole.
> 
> Exactly this coincidence has meant that between possible meanings of the term, it is hardly surprising that there is not that of “fate": fate is not in fact (*just*) a series of events known or foretold by an authoritative speech.


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## london calling

Precisely this coincidence has meant that 'destiny/fate' is one of the possible meanings of the term, as destiny/fate is none other than a series of events recounted or foretold by an authoritative person.**

My take.

** 'speech' can't recount or foretell. And by _authoritative person_ I mean someone who knows his business (which I suppose fortune-tellers, astrologists or soothsayers do! Not that I think that the Italian sentence is implying any criticism ofpeople who predicted fate at the time).


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## King Crimson

london calling said:


> Precisely this coincidence has meant that 'destiny/fate' is one of the possible meanings of the term, as destiny/fate is none other than a series of events recounted or foretold by an authoritative person.**
> 
> My take.
> 
> ** *'speech' can't recount or foretell*. And by _authoritative person_ I mean someone who knows his business (which I suppose fortune-tellers, astrologists or soothsayers do! Not that I think that the Italian sentence is implying any criticism ofpeople who predicted fate at the time).


 
That's right and it may well be a typo, but maybe "parola" here is to be taken figuratively to mean "source" or something along these lines.


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## london calling

King Crimson said:


> That's right and it may well be a typo, but maybe "parola" here is to be taken figuratively to mean "source" or something along these lines.


True. How about:

Precisely this coincidence has meant that 'destiny/fate' is one of the possible meanings of the term, as destiny/fate is none other than a series of events recounted or foretold by an authoritative person *source. *(?)


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## alsace1961

Tutti avete tradotto "far sì che" con "mean". Ci sta ma non è del tutto esatto. Vuol dire rendere possibile e io la tradurrei più con "allowed" o meglio ancora "caused" che con "meant".


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## Mary49

alsace1961 said:


> Tutti avete tradotto "far sì che" con "mean". Ci sta ma non è del tutto esatto. Vuol dire rendere possibile e io la tradurrei più con "allowed" o meglio ancora "caused" che con "meant".


Concordo, è la prima cosa che ho pensato.


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## london calling

alsace1961 said:


> Tutti avete tradotto "far sì che" con "mean". Ci sta ma non è del tutto esatto. Vuol dire rendere possibile e io la tradurrei più con "allowed" o meglio ancora "caused" che con "meant".


Precisely this coincidence has caused  that 'destiny/fate' is one of the possible meanings of the term
Precisely this coincidence has allowed  that 'destiny/fate' is one of the possible meanings of the term


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## ohbice

"Far sì che..." in questo contesto potrebbe essere simile a "produrre come risultato", "avere come conseguenza", eccetera. La costruzione regge un congiuntivo, in questo caso "figuri" (figurare = essere presente).
Provando in un altro modo direi:
Proprio questa coincidenza
ha prodotto come risultato che,
tra i possibili significati del termine,
vi sia
anche il significato di “destino”
Sul tema "far sì che" ci sono altri thread, per esempio questo: http://forum.wordreference.com/threads/far-sì-che.93000/


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## london calling

Certo OB, ma perché farsi le s**he mentali quando _has meant_ rende esattamente la stessa idea?


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## ohbice

london calling said:


> Certo OB, ma perché farsi le s**he mentali quando _has meant_ rende esattamente la stessa idea?.


Ciao London Calling, oggi sono un po' sfasato: la mia risposta poteva avere senso come prima risposta, per cercare di facilitare la comprensione del problema a juji. In effetti, dopo che diversi post hanno già offerto diverse ipotesi di soluzione, potevo anche fare a meno di intervenire.


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## london calling

Non stavo dicendo che non dovevi intervenire, OB, fa sempre piacere sentire le tue opinioni.


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## bobes

juji said:


> Context: about medieval texts - the 'term' being discussed is an ambiguous and obsolete word that was used to indicate the telling of a story through speech, a narration of a series of events.


Precisely, what 'term' are we talking about? ... if you don't mind


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## london calling

bobes said:


> Precisely, what 'term' are we talking about? ... if you don't mind


... the 'term' being discussed is an ambiguous and obsolete word that was used to indicate the telling of a story through speech, a narration of a series of events.

But it might be in German.

Seriously juji,  Bobes has asked an interesting question: is the 'term' you mention in Italian in the text you have in front of you?


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## juji

The term is - in Old French, though it pops up in other forms in High German and Middle English - '_aventure_', and it is difficult to translate as '_avventura_'.  A quick summary:

The term is for a sequence of events that a hero undertakes in romance. For the hero, the sequence of events that happen are coincidence, or chance encounters: fights to be fought, other persons that appear, baddies to be killed, maidens to be saved, wrongs to be righted: the sequence restores order. But the term also denotes a series of tests that the knight is willing to undergo to prove his bravery and prowess, but which need to be revealed, mostly at court. The series of events, the _aventure_, is thus revealed only through the telling of a story. The telling of the story thus also reveals the hero, whose very existence is part of the events. The term is therefore part of a broader concept of fate/destiny not being known or revealed to human beings, as the ending of a story is not revealed to the audience/reader until the very end.

This has all been very helpful, many thanks. I was so confused by the 'non', so I'm glad you cleared it up for me! 

As OB writes, perhaps the difficulty does come from the subjunctive — how to translate into English? If you translate as 'appear to be', it sounds awkward, but...

Using 'allow' might work, because 'has meant' sounds too definite. Maybe 'perhaps has meant'.

Precisely this coincidence *has allowed* "fate" *to appear as* one of the possible meanings of the term, as fate is none other than a series of events recounted or foretold by an authoritative source.

Precisely this coincidence *has meant* that "fate" *is* one of the possible meanings of the term, as fate is none other than a series of events recounted or foretold by an authoritative source.


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## bicontinental

Good morning

Looks like I'm a little late for this, but this is my suggestion:



> Proprio questa coincidenza *ha fatto sí che* tra i possibili significati del termine figuri anche quelllo di “destino”: il destino *non è infatti che* una serie di eventi detti o predetti da una parola autorevole.



_Exactly this coincidence/this very coincidence *has contributed to the fact that *possible meanings of the term also include [the concept of] destiny: Destiny *is in fact nothing but* a series of events, told or foretold by an authoritative *source._

*I like King Crimson’s interpretation of “word” ~ “source”

Bic.


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## london calling

If you use _has allowed fate to appear as_, that's fine. What isn't possible is this (as you know, of course):

_Precisely this coincidence has *allowed* that 'destiny/fate' is one of the possible meanings of the term_

However, I still think that 'has meant' is fine, because of the use of 'possible' afterwards. And OB wasn't suggesting we use the subjunctive in English: he just says that what it means is that the result of this coincidence is that the term can mean fate, amongst other possible meanings. Which is exactly what 'Precisely this coincidence has meant that 'destiny/fate' is one of the possible meanings of the term' means.

Yes Bic, I edited my suggestion to include 'source'.


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## King Crimson

As a side note, I see that two native speakers (Bic and the OP) have elected to use "in fact" here to translate "infatti". The use of "in fact" to reinforce rather than refute a previous statement has been discussed at great length here and also in the EO forum and while there's no clear consensus, it seems to me that most native speakers are inclined to use "in fact" just to change what was said before or not use it altogether (this is why I used "indeed" in my translation attempt and inserted "in fact" between parentheses).


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## juji

Many thanks! Yes, I like Bic's and LC's translations and will think about "in fact". In fact, that is a crucial part of this. These romances come from a time when there was less distinction between stories and fact, so the recounting and representation of events is constantly interrupted by a speaker testifying to the authority and truth of his story (i.e., 'look, I saw it with my own eyes'). The storyteller always has the ability to render events more dramatically, which is where the suspicion of lies starts to creep in ... perhaps not so very different from today: we still need to swear at the witness stand that terrible things will happen to us if we commit perjury.


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## King Crimson

juji said:


> Many thanks! Yes, I like Bic's and LC's translations and will think about "in fact". *In fact, that is a crucial part of this*. These romances come from a time when there was less distinction between stories and fact, so the recounting and representation of events is constantly interrupted by a speaker testifying to the authority and truth of his story (i.e., 'look, I saw it with my own eyes'). The storyteller always has the ability to render events more dramatically, which is where the suspicion of lies starts to creep in ... perhaps not so very different from today, and why we need to swear in at the witness stand that terrible things will happen to us if we commit perjury.


 
You've just used "in fact" to confirm / reinforce a previous statement, haven't you?


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## juji




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## bobes

Thanks for the explanation... well I think the Italian term is _ventura _for Old French _Aventura_. But this is off topic...


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## london calling

King Crimson said:


> As a side note, I see that two native speakers (Bic and the OP) have elected to use "in fact" here to translate "infatti".


I left it out on purpose. You may have noticed that I put 'as' instead of using a colon - well, having done that it seemed even more superfluous than usual.


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## ohbice

bicontinental said:


> _Exactly this coincidence/this very coincidence *has contributed to the fact that *possible meanings of the term also include [the concept of] destiny: Destiny *is in fact nothing but* a series of events, told or foretold by an authoritative *source._


Oggi, essendo influenzato, non mi vergogno di "sfruttare" il lavoro altrui: "_Exactly this coincidence/this very coincidence *has determined the fact that *possible meanings of the term also include destiny: Destiny *is nothing but* a series of events, told or foretold by an authoritative voice."_
Quanto a *in fact*, non mi piaceva nemmeno in italiano


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## sorry66

Just out of curiosity: Is the term 'errantry'? as in knight errant?


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## King Crimson

london calling said:


> I left it out on purpose. You may have noticed that I put 'as' instead of using a colon - well, having done that it seemed even more superfluous than usual.


 
Nice workaround


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## juji

ohbice said:


> Oggi, essendo influenzato, non mi vergogno di "sfruttare" il lavoro altrui: "_Exactly this coincidence/this very coincidence *has determined the fact that *possible meanings of the term also include destiny: Destiny *is nothing but* a series of events, told or foretold by an authoritative voice."_
> Quanto a *in fact*, non mi piaceva nemmeno in italiano



ohbice, I'm interested that you translate 'parola' as voice. Would it not be 'voce' if that were the case?


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## sorry66

Would you mind answering my question in post # 26? I think knowing what the 'term' is would make the translation easier? Chivalry? Errantry?


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## juji

sorry66 said:


> Would you mind answering my question in post # 26? I think knowing what the 'term' is would make the translation easier? Chivalry? Errantry?



Interesting. I am still exploring this, so I am probably being a little careful here. I think 'errant' describes the condition of the knight, it has its etymology in 'journey', and also 'wander' and 'stray' (to err). In this sense it can be seen as a function. Errantry is not something happening to the knight, it is a condition of the knight-errant.


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## sorry66

juji said:


> Proprio questa coincidenza ha fatto sí che tra i possibili significati del termine figuri anche quelllo di “destino”: il destino non è infatti che una serie di eventi detti o predetti da una parola autorevole.


This very coincidence suggests that the meaning 'destiny' can be added to the other possible meanings of the term where destiny is, actually, only a series of events, told or foretold by a sovereign voice.


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## juji

sorry66 said:


> This very coincidence suggests that the meaning 'destiny' can be added to the other possible meanings of the term *where* destiny is, actually, only a series of events, told or foretold by a sovereign *voice*.



Thank you! Do you think using '*where*' rather than a colon changes the meaning? Is 'voice' more favoured than 'source'? — see #28


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## sorry66

I don't think 'where' changes the meaning; the second part of the sentence is giving an explanation of destiny in that particular context and so you can introduce it in various ways.
I think 'source' makes more sense but I think 'voice' is closer to the 'ambiguity' of the original?


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## juji

Perfect, thank you!


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## bobes

sorry66 said:


> I think 'source' makes more sense but I think 'voice' is closer to the 'ambiguity' of the original?


Perchè non _'word'_ allora, che è la traduzione più diretta di '_parola'_?


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## london calling

bobes said:


> Perchè non _'word'_ allora, che è la traduzione più diretta di '_parola'_?


_An authorititive word_ would sound very odd to me. I prefer source, personally.


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## bobes

Grazie LC, credo di capire cosa intendi, posso solo dire che 'una parola autorevole' non è espressione comune neppure in italiano. Le possibili traduzioni che sono state proposte qui sono tutte valide, compreso ovviamente 'source', però a mio avviso tutte introducono una sfumatura diversa, che può essere accettata o meno. Ecco perchè credo che in questo caso la forma più diretta di traduzione sia anche la migliore. Ovviamente è solo una mia idea, ma ho preso spunto da qui, dove la 'parola' si svincola dalla 'fonte' che l'ha generata e assurge a vita autonoma. In fondo il concetto stesso di destino non è che sia poi così semplice


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## sorry66

london calling said:


> _An authorititive word_ would sound very odd to me


I agree with LC. It also makes me think of something like the Bible, as in your link, bobes.


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## bobes

OK, thanks!


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## london calling

london calling said:


> _An *authoritative* word_ would sound very odd to me. I prefer source, personally.


Typo, apologies - I can't edit my post any more.


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## ohbice

juji said:


> ohbice, I'm interested that you translate 'parola' as voice. Would it not be 'voce' if that were the case?


Ciao ju. Qui, e mi sembra che lo hai capito anche tu, *parola autorevole *is a condensed form for "parola pronunciata da una persona autorevole". _*Voce autorevole*_ is not so different, and not so different also is_* fonte autorevole, *_tradotto più sopra (post 5) con "source" (although *fonte autorevole *is (more) often used in the journalistic jargon - and in this context I don't like it too much).
Ciao
p


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