# nihonjin demo machigau kurai nihongo ha muzukashii



## ty604

nihonjin demo machigau kurai nihongo ha muzukashii.

I know the meaning is basically, "Even Japanese make mistakes (with the Japanese language) so/therefore/so that means Japanese is difficult".

It is usually used with time as in 6ji kurai, donokurai, etc which means "about" but what does it mean in this sentence?

Is it the use of demo + kurai that is understood as "even"?

What is the exactly literal transaltion of this sentence?


Thanks


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## uchi.m

ty604 said:


> nihonjin demo machigau kurai nihongo ha muzukashii



I guess this sentence means _Japanese is such a difficult language that even Japanese people commit mistakes themselves_._nihongo ha muzukashii_ = The Japanese language is difficult_
nihonjin demo machigau_ = Even Japanese people commit mistakes themselves​


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## ty604

Thank you

I know that's what the general meaning is but what exactly is kurai and what is the part (demo [verb] kurai) doing?

kurai usually means about as in time, but what about in the context of this sentence?

Same with demo. Is demo being used as "even"?

Also could you translate it literally for me please? 

i.e.

Japanese even mistake about Japanese languge is difficult.

Like that but using the correct words.

Thanks


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## uchi.m

ty604 said:


> I know that's what the general meaning is but what exactly is _kurai _and what is the part _demo _[verb] _kurai_ doing?



_kurai _means _such... that:
__nihonjin demo machigau kurai nihongo ha muzukashii
The Japanese language is such difficult that even native speakers make mistakes themselves.
_​I highlit the two sentences above with different colors. Each color in Japanese corresponds to a respective translation into English.

In fact, _kurai _works by asserting or explaining the meaning of _muzukashii_, which is the most important word in this sentence. Have a look at another translation, which may make it clear:As for the Japanese language, it is so difficult that even native speakers make mistakes themselves.​This translation explicits_ nihongo ha..._, which can be translated as "_as for the Japanese language, it..."_ since -ha is a topic marker.



ty604 said:


> _kurai _usually means _about as_ in time, but what about in the context of this sentence?



In this case, _such... that_.



ty604 said:


> Same with _demo_. Is _demo _being used as "even"?



Yes, _demo _means _even _here.



ty604 said:


> Also could you translate it literally for me please?


_nihonjin. demo. machigau. kurai. nihongo. ha. muzukashii
Japanese(demonym). even. to make mistake. such~that. Japanese(language). TOPIC PARTICLE. difficult
_​


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## kyn

In this sense, くらい (kurai) has the same meaning as ほど (hodo), and the whole _"nihonjin demo machigau_" modifies "muzukashii". (How difficult? ->  so difficult that _"nihonjin demo machigau")_


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## ty604

so

you cannot understand this sentence until you've read all of it. you cannot predict it as you could with the equivalent English sentence. Because the question "how difficult" isn't asked until the very end.

This is why I posted this new thread. 

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=720608

Replace the 'xx' with 'tt'. This forum doesn't allow posting of URL's until you've posted 30 or more posts so I cheated


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## FaWzY

Is this the same "Kurai" that means "approximately"?!


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## ty604

yes it is.

6ji ni kurai etc


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## FaWzY

Okay, but why "Demo", wouldn't "Mada" be better and less confusing that demo?!


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## uchi.m

FaWzY said:


> Okay, but why "Demo", wouldn't "Mada" be better and less confusing that demo?!



How would you replace _demo _with _mada_? I am not sure if that would work.


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## ty604

FaWzY said:


> Okay, but why "Demo", wouldn't "Mada" be better and less confusing that demo?!



Because demo is used for 'even' & 'even if' type sentences, not just by itself as 'but'.

If I'm not mistaken 'demo' is correctly written 'de mo' is it not?


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## FaWzY

Yeah, that's how I got it!


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## Flaminius

First, moderator's note.
Several comments posted  in English "so...that..." vs. Japanese "...demo...kurai" thread have been moved over here.  The above thread looks like a comparison between two constructions from different languages while the moved posts dealt only with the Japanese construction.



FaWzY said:


> Is this the same "Kurai" that means "approximately"?!


_Kurai_ can modify either a noun or a noun clause (a full sentence).  If it modifies a noun (e.g., gonin kurai), it is approximately and if it modifies a noun clause (e.g., nihonjin demo machigaeru kurai) it denotes the intensity of the verb (or adjective) in the main clause (e.g., nihongo-wa muzukashii).  One way to look at it is to conceive _kurai_ as a particle of extent or degree.  For a reference, _hodo_ has the same functions.



ty604 said:


> Because demo is used for 'even' & 'even if' type sentences, not just by itself as 'but'.
> 
> If I'm not mistaken 'demo' is correctly written 'de mo' is it not?


The particle is regarded as a single unit; でも.  Upon transcription, _demo_ looks to me the most ordinary spelling.


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## KiPo

kurai in conjunction with a verb and/or adjective, used as in xxx kurai yyy can usually be translated as

"it is so yyy (that) it xxx"

itai kurai kanashii - I'm so sad it hurts
nemutte shimau kurai tsumaranai - it's so boring you fall asleep
machigau kurai muzukashii - it's so difficult (someone) makes mistakes
onaka ga itaku naru kurai waratta - I laughed so hard my stomach hurts

About the "demo" it means "even". 
Nihonjin demo = "even Japanese". 

Mada only means "yet, still" so it couldn't be used in your example sentence.


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