# outskirts is or are



## ramelot80

Hi there,

Could anyone help me with this question?

what must I put after "outskirts" in this sentence?

the outskirts of the city is/ are an ideal site for a company like ours.


Thanks in advanced


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## Wandering JJ

- The outskirts of the city *provide/offer *an ideal site for a company like ours.


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## alanla

It is used as singular. Example from article below:
massivecraft.wikia.com/wiki/Category:The_OutskirtsCached   [description ofvideo game]

This district is full of rouges, thieves, blaggards, villainsand other black-hearted people. Note that _the outskirts__* is*_ not a slum. It has just as much reputation as the…


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## Wandering JJ

'Outskirts' is plural, as are pants, pliers, premises, pyjamas, remains, scissors, thanks. There is no way we (BE) English speakers would say that 'the outskirts, pants, pliers, premises, pyjamas, remains, scissors, or thanks *is*.' The outskirts *are* sometimes a good place to live - whatever the Wiki article indicates.


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## inib

My usage certainly coincides with that of W. JJ, (but no surprises there!). I can't assure that no American would say "The outskirts* is*...", but I would explain the example given in post 3 in the following way: Note that the term/concept "_outskirts_" is not equivalent to a slum.
Just my train of thought, and no animosity intended.


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## alanla

I, and I think other Americans, use this in the singular. I, as an American, would say: 
“The outskirts *is *the place where you find most people living outside of this city.” 

I am an American. I can’t be the only one. In addition I have included a definite written reference by a game company plus one from a dictionary that might be very careful about these things. It may also be that Am. English allows for both. I, personally, use it in the singular; and I don’t consider myself illiterate.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/outskirts
*outskirts*


_Plural     form of _*outskirt*_._; the edges or areas     around a city     or town. 
_He lived on the *outskirts* of Paris for a time._
*Usage notes*



The plural is used much more often than the     singular 


[paragraph removed--frida-nc]


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## k-in-sc

(I think your space key must be stuck)
"Outskirts" is normally plural. "The Outskirts" in your reference in #3 is the name of a district in an imaginary city and so would be treated as singular.


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## FromPA

I've always heard it as plural too, but Collins says it is sometimes singular.

Collins
World English Dictionary
*outskirts*  (ˈaʊtˌskɜːts)   — *pl n*
( _sometimes singular _) outlying or bordering areas, districts, etc, as of a city




Collins English Dictionary - Complete & Unabridged 10th Edition
2009 © William Collins Sons & Co. Ltd. 1979, 1986 © HarperCollins
Publishers 1998, 2000, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2009


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## alanla

Yes, the space key was stuck or something. Thank you. Will fix that. 
As I said, usage varies. You might normally use it in the plural. I respect your usage. There are variations, as is many times the case. I just let the references speak for themselves. It has more weight than just a simple statement to the contrary. That reference might be ambiguous in the video game [outskirts]—I take it to mean what I said. In the end, it is pretty pedantic. In this case, I don’t think it’s about language, but how the question is approached here. Normally, you just let things stand and leave it because this is so common on this site. Sometimes it is not worth the trouble. I have seen threads like this go on foreverrrrrrr.
Ihave always found this quote very wise about ignorance [not knowing]. And I hopeyou can be open-minded enough to take in that spiritit is intended: 
“Thetruth is incontrovertible, malice may attack it, *ignorance* may derideit, but in the end; there it is.” --WinstonChurchill
I mean this in just the same way.We have got to keep an open mind. There are many English-speaking countries, not just mine. Not only that, things vary in my own country itself. 
Spanish Proverb: Rectificar es de sabios. A wise man changes his mind, a fool never.


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## gringuitoloco

I speak Am. English, and I would also use it in the plural....


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## inib

alanla said:


> Inib, I don’t mean any animosity either, but it is pretty audacious and presumptuous to claim no American would say anything like that when you are not an American and are, by no means, an undisputed authority on American English. A previous post listed by you claimed the same absolute certainty about a grammar point that turn out to be completely wrong. Sources are very easy to cite. They should be investigated before anyone say anything with absolute certainty and complete authority. It might even be possible that some English people use it in the singular, too.


Read my post again:I said "I *can't *assure that no American would say 'the outskirts is...' ", so there's no sweeping statement there.


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## ramelot80

First of all, thank everybody for this enriching thread. I will use it definitely as in Spanish, where you can use it both ways despite the fact that it is always plural.
e.g:
Las afueras de esta ciudad son un buen lugar para vivir.

las afueras de esta ciudad es un buen lugar para vivir.


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## k-in-sc

Keep in mind that "afueras" are often "suburbs" rather than "outskirts."


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## Cayenarama

It's curious that a question like this should generate so much controversy when in fact it would apparently come down to something very clear and beyond debate, at least on a grammatical level. This is a grammar forum after all. 
The word _outskirts _is plural and therefore still needs to be followed by a corresponding plural verb form _(e.g.provide/offer/are). 

_There are of course certain words like 'news'  which, although originally plural, are now treated as singular. E.g: _The news was shocking.

_Ultimately the only thing to discuss here is the 'usage' and whether that has or has not changed in the respective American and British styles.


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## k-in-sc

If we said something you don't think we should have, you can just ignore it


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## Cayenarama

k-in-sc said:


> If we said something you don't think we should have, you can just ignore it


Thanks. Sorry if I sounded 'uppety'.


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## alanla

Normally, I would not bother to continue this discussion. You see what is happening here so, so often. A response to this sort of intransigence is futile. I’ve seen many people who have had to respond to this kind of thing and know it is not worth it. And I don’t think I will be spending much time on the site any more. But think I will do this once and for all, though, since this is something that is about a little more than just “outskirts.”What generated the controversy about _outskirts _is that it is *not just plural*. [y punto]
The inability to accept documented fact, rather than accepting what amounts to unsubstantiated “personal opinion” as fact generates controversy, contributes to nothing more than adding unnecessary confusion, and wastes people’s time, for something other than any logical reason. 
If, in fact, _only _the plural is acceptable, then *substantiate it* with something more than a vacant, emotional opinion. Whether it is used with more frequency is another question. You can’t lend much credibility or respect to an unsubstantiated emotional opinion? How can anyone? That doesn’t do it. Nor, do I think, that works for most people.

What I do respect is the*Collins English Dictionary*.It is from the *UK* and published there:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collins_Dictionary
The *CollinsEnglish Dictionary* is an important printed and online dictionary of English. It is published by HarperCollins in Glasgow.[1][2]
I tend to think they are a slightly more credible sourcethat an unsubstantiated personal opinion. Besides, do you real think the Collins English dictionary people don’t know their business? Really! They don’t just think up stuff and print it. Dictionaries of that sort are researched. I think most open-minded, right-thinking people would go with the Collins dictionary. 
Following is an additional site that gives other instances where plurals are used as singular and some examples in which _either _the pural or singular is acceptable:
http://www.tolearnenglish.com/exercises/exercise-english-2/exercise-english-7495.php
*In the same way, we often use a plural verb afterthe name of a sports team or a company:*
*• **Scotland are** playing France next week (in a football match).*
*• **Shell have** increased the price of petrol.*
This above is Br. English. Am.English would use the singular [Scotland *is*].Do I like it? Doesn’t matter. It’s *true*. [not your personal truth] That’s just how it is.
I bet you could get a 60-entry thread out of that, too!

_Outskirts_ is used in the singular also. Those are the facts—not speculation. The truth is the truth—you accepted it or you don’t. 
 There should be no controversy.


Why create it? There is no logical reason to.

Nothing has any credibility at this stage if it is not backed up. I would really [and I mean this in a nice way, seriously] like that premise about it being used exclusively as plural backed up, please. They never are and never will be because they can’t be. 
Nothing has been said here after that simple fact that was stated and supported by 3 people to prove otherwise. And ramelot80 is intelligent enough to make that decision and understands the discrepancy there can be in Spanish also. He wrote the question in perfect English. The way he wishes to use _outskirts_ is his choice now and can be supported with this information. And he made an intelligent decision based on the information. I’ve got to give him credit. He cut through all of this…      What controversy?

Repeated denial of the obvious doesn’t make anyone right. That is what makes controversy. 
Bottom line:
“The truth is incontrovertible, malice may attack it, *ignorance* may derideit, but in the end; there it is.” –Winston Churchill


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## Wandering JJ

I tried hard to find the use of 'outskirts' as a singular noun in your link to the Collins Dictionary, but couldn't find it.

Nobody has said that 'the outskirts *is*' is never used, all that I have gleaned is that it is highly unlikely in BE and possible in AE. I could see this thread expanding, which is why I said in post#2 'provide' or 'offer'. Ramelot, quite understandably, was concerned because the noun *following* the copula was in the singular, so by suggesting a different verb, we overcame the problem of plural/singular in different parts of the sentence. 

If we're going to quote dictionaries, I offer the Oxford Dictionay (OED) summary. As you say, dictionaries are researched and, unlike your quoting lots from Collins without any reference to 'outskirts' I quote the OED:

Definition of *outskirts*
plural noun 

the outer parts of a town or city: _he built a new factory *on the outskirts of* Birmingham



_


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## alanla

*You illustrate perfectly the point that was made in my previous posts. What you posted speaks volumes for itself. *
There are a few discrepancies here with what you are saying:
By the way, just so we get the information correct, your _option/offer _does not solve the problem of plurality, nor does it answer the original question. If it has a singular usage, *provides/offers* would be acceptable as the singular.[i.e., The outskirts of the city *provides/offers* an ideal site for a companylike ours.] I think you’re wandering here. 


*First,* I beg to differ with you about the fact that no one said it was only plural:
*1)* You [Wandering JJ Post #4] said this:: “The outskirts *are* sometimes a good place to live - whatever the Wiki article indicates”.
To me, to say that, indicating that you disregard the Wiki article, is an indication you think it is plural. That it clear enough to me.You clearly don’t allow for the possibility when you add that tag on the end. I don’t care what you say.Wiki has very much to do with Am. English. And, incidentally, no matter what you say, it is a much more valid source than your personal opinion, which is not supported. 
**Sorry, but I still have my doubts about its usage in the UK after seeing what the Collins people wrote. But I’m not going to automatically disregard it and go grammar Nazi if I hear something to the contrary. Everyone—no matter who—needs to keep an open mind. I don’t really see this being approached this way, do you?  

*2)* Cayenrama [Post # 14]  said: The word _outskirts _*is plural *and therefore still needs to be followed by a corresponding plural verb form _(e.g.provide/offer/are). _
That is a pretty definitive statement to me, no matter what followed.

*Secondly,* the reference was already given by FromPa for the _Collins Dictionary_. If you had carefully read the post *before *posting wrong information it helps.There was no need for me to post that reference a second time for that reason. Apparently, that assumption was wrong. The dictionary reference was stated clearly in the _previous _post.Was it that you maybe didn’t find that acceptable? I don’t understand what the difficulty was there. Please read the following carefully again:

*1)* See post # 8 by FromPA
1.     Collins
World English Dictionary
*outskirts* (ˈaʊtˌskɜːts) — *pl n*
( _sometimes singular _) outlying or bordering areas, districts, etc, asof a city





Collins English Dictionary - Complete &Unabridged 10th Edition
2009 © William Collins Sons & Co. Ltd. 1979, 1986 © HarperCollins
Publishers 1998, 2000, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2009
*2)* I found thisreference very easily in the _CollinsDictionary_:
http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/outskirts  [outskirts is used as singular or plural]. I have no idea what you are talkingabout.
*outskirts(ˈaʊtˌskɜːts) *


Definitions
plural noun
1.      _sometimes singular_ outlyingor bordering areas, districts, etc, as of a city


*I think this post reference says everything*. Whatever relevance there is, if we are going to quote dictionaries, make sure they encompass the whole question after evidence is already clearly given which is clearly contrary to any person truth or fact you just can’t seem to leave and doesn’t address the _whole_ question. Make sure you know what you are talking about first.That doesn’t take long. Otherwise, it becomes a personal, myopic agenda and ceases to have anything to do with the basic purpose of this forum. A little time with that and more time actually carefully reading a thread and considering what has been said goes a long way to solving a problem, not creating one unnecessarily.
There’s alot to be said in proverbs, too. I hope you understand this in the spiritintended. It’s just a proverb:
Spanish Proverb:Rectificar es de sabios. A wise man changes his mind, a fool never.


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## gringuitoloco

Here is the issue: (sometimes singular)
In _one_ dictionary it says that it is _possible_ to use it in the singular. The other dictionaries, and that one as well, all list it as plural. Generally, the usage for this word is plural. *Can* it be used in singular? Sure. But it's atypical. When someone asks a question like this, it is always better an answer that is ALWAYS correct, instead of one that is SOMETIMES correct. If you would like to add a note that the singular is also possible, do so. But make sure that it is noted as a possibility, and not the understood definition.


The answer to the question is this:
"Are" would be the most acceptable conjugation of the verb "to be" in this sentence, although "is" can, and is sometimes, used in its stead. 

(And here you would provide your link for the possibility of "is," i.e. your like to the definition listing it as "sometimes singular.")


/Thread.

Please don't unnecessarily spam threads with pointless arguments and trivialities.


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## k-in-sc

Proposed sign over grammar forum


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## Cayenarama

k-in-sc said:


> Proposed sign over grammar forum


Love it! I think it would be very appropriate.


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## inib

ramelot80 said:


> Hi there,
> 
> Could anyone help me with this question?
> 
> what must I put after "outskirts" in this sentence?
> 
> the outskirts of the city is/ are an ideal site for a company like ours.
> 
> 
> Thanks in advanced


Ramelot, apart from the issue of whether the word _outskirts_ is singular/plural/both, could you please confirm if your doubt was based on the fact that there was a(n apparently) plural noun before the verb and a singular one after the verb, (as Wandering JJ suggested)? I mean, would you have the same dilemma with the following sentence:_ Potatoes is/are my favourite dish_ ? I believe we may have all been missing the point of the question.


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## Wandering JJ

k-in-sc: I like your suggestion.

alanla: you'll be delighted to learn that I checked my up-to-date 2-volume Shorter Oxford English Dictionary and it clearly states that *outskirt*, the singular noun, is usually used in the plural, *outskirts*. For comparison, I checked *news* and the entry advised that this word is usually treated as singular these days; there was no such mention in the entry for 'outskirts'. Remember I'm talking BE - as already acknowledged AE may be different. The entry in the OED is 'outskirt' without an 's'.

Wiki articles are written by and amended by un-named people: I am a registered contributor and am therefore well aware that errors are fairly common especially where no citation is offered.


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## k-in-sc

inib said:


> Ramelot, apart from the issue of whether the word _outskirts_ is singular/plural/both, could you please confirm if your doubt was based on the fact that there was a(n apparently) plural noun before the verb and a singular one after the verb, (as Wandering JJ suggested)? I mean, would you have the same dilemma with the following sentence:_ Potatoes is/are my favourite dish_ ? I believe we may have all been missing the point of the question.


Good point. This tends to confuse Spanish speakers because the plural always wins out in Spanish, unlike in English.


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## Wandering JJ

k-in-sc said:


> Proposed sign over grammar forum


Por cirto tu MP inbox está llena...


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## alanla

*Inib,* I  somehow misread your previous post and said you categorically claimed no American would use outskirts in the singular either.  You did not.
 My apologies.


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## inib

alanla said:


> *Inib,* I somehow misread your previous post and said you categorically claimed no American would use outskirts in the singular either. You did not.
> My apologies.


Accepted, of course


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