# Ma necessariamente superstiziosa è la pretesa di comporre



## juji

I'm having trouble translating this into English.

"Ma necessariamente superstiziosa è la pretesa di comporre il caos informe della propria vita in un ordine demonico che la conduce infallibilmente al successo; autentica pietà è, al contrario, quella che riconosce proprio nella sobria accettazione di quel caos la sola condizione per la ricerca di una via d'uscita da ogni ordine apparente."

My attempt:

"Still necessarily superstitious is [the poet's] claim of assembling the formless chaos of his own life in a demonic order that always leads to [his] great success; authentic piety is, on the contrary, that which recognises its own simple acceptance of the chaos, the only condition for finding a way out of any apparent order."

Context: philosophy discussion of a poet and the poet's superstitious belief that a demon somehow guides his creative powers.

If anyone can help out a little, especially with the rhythm of the adjectives and adverbs running together, I'd be very grateful. "Still necessarily superstitious" sounds rather awkward.

Thanks.


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## bicontinental

I’m always up for a challenge, and this is indeed one! …I’m sure more suggestions will follow after this, so please be patient.

_The claim that creating the muddled chaos in life itself in a demonic order/(way?) which invariably leads to success is, however, necessarily superstitious. _

_On the other hand, it is true piety that in the very acceptance of this chaos discovers/recognizes the only condition for finding a way out of every apparent order._
(My take on the grammar of this sentence is as follows: autentica pietà è... quella che riconosce.... la sola condizione...) There is no comma before 'la sola condizione' in the Italian version.

Just don’t ask me what it all means…

Bic.


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## epoqueepique

juji said:


> di comporre il caos informe della propria vita


For one, ''la propria vita'' would be ''Life'' (in general, not ''his own life''...)



juji said:


> autentica pietà è, al contrario, quella che riconosce proprio nella sobria accettazione di quel caos la sola condizione per la ricerca di una via d'uscita da ogni ordine apparente.


''Authentic piety, on the contrary, is the recognition that it is precisely the acceptance of chaos that constitutes the only escape from (...)"

The sentence is complex. Those are only preliminary ideas. I hope more of us will work on this, it's interesting, and there are very good people here to help you.


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## bicontinental

epoqueepique said:


> The sentence is complex. ............... I hope more of us will work on this, it's interesting, ...............



Yes it is! I keep going back to edit and re-edit my response 
Bic.


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## epoqueepique

I've studied it myself for more than an hour! 
Now, will sleep on it. Be back tomorrow.


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## london calling

Yikes!

I'll have a go too, but this really is a killer. Be warned, my friends: I'll probably pinch some ideas from you!

_What is unquestionably superstitious is that he expects to be able to pick up the pieces of the chaos which make up his life and put them together in some kind of devilish order, a recipe for certain success; adversely, it is true piety  that acknowledges the very acceptance of this chaos  as the sole condition/prerequisite for finding a way out of all apparent order._

I'm not at all happy with it, especially the part where piety acknowledges... how can piety acknowledge or recognise anything at all? I can understand the concept of chaos and apparent order: there has to be chaos for there to be order, but where piety comes into that is quite beyond me.

I'll sleep on it too. Let's hope we're more inspired tomorrow.

Una cosa, juji: puoi postare qualche altro brano? Magari le frasi che precedono e che seguono queste? Ci potrebbero illuminare, chissà.


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## bicontinental

london calling said:


> adversely, it is true piety that acknowledges the very acceptance of this chaos as the sole condition/prerequisite for finding a way out of all apparent order.



LC,  it looks -to me at least- as if the only direct object for _riconosce_ is _la sola condizione_ _per_…., and that the meaning may be that ‘it is _in the acceptance of or by/through [by means of] accepting this chaos _that piety recognizes/acknowledges the sole prerequisite.’

It’s all getting a little fuzzy right now, but that would seem different from your version of the sentence in which piety recognizes/acknowledges the acceptance (direct object) *as* the sole prerequisite (object complement/predicate).

Original sentence: 





> "autentica pietà è, al contrario, quella che riconosce proprio nella sobria accettazione di quel caos la sola condizione per la ricerca di una via d'uscita da ogni ordine apparente."



If we cut up the sentence and rearrange it in a more straight forward subject-verb-object order, I’d say we get:

'al contrario, *autentica pietà è quella che riconosce* [proprio nella sobria accettazione di quel caos] *la sola condizione* [per la ricerca di una via d'uscita da ogni ordine apparente]'

If that’s correct (that’s a big ‘if’), my new version (in part inspired by your translation) is as follows:

_*On the other hand, it is in/through the very act of accepting this chaos that true piety knows/recognizes the sole prerequisite for finding a way out of all apparent order. *_



london calling said:


> how can piety acknowledge or recognise anything at all? I can understand the concept of chaos and apparent order: there has to be chaos for there to be order, but where piety comes into that is quite beyond me.



The OP can probably explain that...This apparently deals with superstition/demonic influence(s) vs. piety and it sounds as if piety is used here as 'piety personified'.


...I think I’ll go rest my little grey cells, too!
Bic.


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## epoqueepique

Good tries! 

Original quote:


juji said:


> "Ma necessariamente superstiziosa è la pretesa di comporre il caos informe della propria vita in un ordine demonico che la conduce infallibilmente al successo; autentica pietà è, al contrario, quella che riconosce proprio nella sobria accettazione di quel caos la sola condizione per la ricerca di una via d'uscita da ogni ordine apparente."



Picking bits from both of you, this is what I come up with, this morning:
_But pretending to organise one's life into some kind of successful demonic order is necessarily (for ''necessarily'' we need previous context) superstitious; on the contrary, true piety is in acknowledging that the very acceptance of this chaos is the sole condition to finding a way out of all apparent order. 
_
Does that look right?


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## london calling

Morning everyone.

Juji, abbiamo bisogno di te, come vedi, innanzitutto per l'interpretazione della seconda parte, vedi quello che dice Bic (post 7). Puoi dirci quale interpretazione è corretta? Anzi, se potresti riscrivere in maniera più semplice la frase (in italiano) sarebbe di grande aiuto (come lo sarebbe poter leggere qualche altro brano del testo).

Dopodiché ho un altro po' di domande.

1. Pietà. Il dizionario WR riporta quanto segue:

*pietà *_nf_ (sentimento di compassione) pity, compassion, sympathy _n_
*pietà *_nf_ _estensione, informale_ (cosa che suscita compatimento) pitiful _adj_
  Questo spettacolo fa pietà!
  This show is pitiful.
*pietà *_nf_ _teologia_ (dono dello Spirito Santo) piety, reverence _n_
*pietà *_nf_ _letterario_ (devozione, affetto) devotion, respect _n
_
Noi l'abbiamo interpretato come_ piety/reverence. _E' corretto?

2. Quella.

_autentica pietà è, al contrario, quella che riconosce proprio nella sobria accettazione ....._

_Quella_ che cosa? Cioè, 'quella' a che cosa si riferisce? Non riesco a trovare alcun legame con la parte precedente. Oppure s'intende semplicemente _ciò che_?

3. L'autentica pietà riconosce...

Vedi il post di Bic.  Ho qualche problema con l'idea che un nome astratto (la pietà, appunto) venga seguito da un verbo che implica l'utilizzo degli occhi e del cervello. Stiamo parlando forse della pietà personificata?

4. Necessariamente.

Perché necessariamente superstiziosa? Non si capisce dal contesto.

Io personalmente mi fermo in attesa di chiarimenti da parte tua.


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## london calling

epoqueepique said:


> Picking bits from both of you, this is what I come up with, this morning:
> _But pretending to organise one's life into some kind of successful demonic order is necessarily (for ''necessarily'' we need previous context) superstitious; on the contrary, true piety is in acknowledging that the very acceptance of this chaos is the sole condition to finding a way out of all apparent order. _


We might well be getting there.

I do think you have to mention chaos in the first part, however. Apart from the fact that the author refers back to  it in the second part, there's the whole "there can't be order without chaos" thing.

Anyway, I'm going to wait for juji to get back to us.


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## epoqueepique

Right, or maybe: _...the very acceptance of chaos is the sole condition..._
Sounds much better. 
But, as you say, let's wait for more information. One or two sentences would do the trick, hopefully.


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## Pietruzzo

While waiting for @juji...
Of course they are talking about the contrast between a truely religious(but what religion?) attitude and a superstitious attitude. I'm not sure that "demonico" has to do with Sathan. It could also mean "supernatural".
demonico
de·mò·ni·co/
lett.
_aggettivo e sostantivo maschile_

*1*.
_aggettivo_
Dovuto a spiriti o influssi soprannaturali, non necessariamente maligni.
"potenza d."
*2*.
_sostantivo maschile_
Genio ispiratore, demone.
Poets often have their own "demoni ispiratori", which are not devils but supernatural spirits.


juji said:


> the poet's superstitious belief that a demon somehow guides his creative powers.


"Necessariamente" means "definitely". @london calling's "unquestionably" sounds fine. I don't know about "necessarily"


juji said:


> autentica pietà è, al contrario, quella che riconosce proprio nella sobria accettazione di quel caos la sola condizione per la ricerca di una via d'uscita da ogni ordine apparente


Al contrario la vera pietà(devozione, spirito religioso) consiste nel riconoscere che l'umile accettazione del caos è il solo modo per sfuggire al falso ordine(demonico)


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## london calling

Ecco, grazie, è più chiaro ora, Pietruzzo. Quindi (forse):

_His attitude is unquestionably one of superstition, as he takes it for granted that the shapeless chaos of his life can be remoulded into a demonic/supernatural order that will, without doubt, ensure success in life; adversely, true piety means to acknowledge that humble acceptance of chaos is the only means of escape from a false sense of order._

E adesso mi fermo veramente.


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## epoqueepique

LC.... that looks terrific.


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## london calling

In that case let's hope it's right. It's no good if it looks terrific and it totally wrong, is it.

Juji, dove sei?!


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## juji

Please forgive the length of this reply. I have tried to shorten it.

The text is an interrogation of a poem by Goethe, 'Urworte. Orphisch' (le ‘Parole originarie. Parole orfiche’). Goethe’s poem consists of five stanzas that address five deities, Daimon [Daimôn], Chance [Tykhê], Love [Erôs], Necessity, or Compulsion [Anangkê], and Hope [Elpis]. The ‘demonico’ in the Italian sentence above refers to this ‘Daimon’ rather than to the devil or some other random demon. So I think Pietruzzo in post #12 is absolutely right. The Daimon is a supernatural spirit, a muse for the poet. But also much stronger than a muse. A primary guiding principle. A guardian angel that constantly stands behind both his life and his writing.

The Italian translation of the first stanza ‘Daimon’ is:

“Come nel giorno che al mondo ti ha prestato
il sole stava al saluto dei pianeti,
cosi subito avanti hai proceduto
seguendo la legge, secondo Cui eri apparso.
Cosi devi essere, non puoi sfuggire,
cosi dissero Sibille e profeti.
Noti vi è tempo né potere che spezzi
forma plasmata che vivendo evolve.”

The paragraph in the Italian that immediately preceeds the one we are discussing:

“Elpis, la Speranza, che chiude il prosimetro, non è qui che un travestimento di Daimon, che, con il suo colpo d’ala, dovrebbe elevare la vita del singolo al di là della terra e del tempo (‘un colpo d'ala e dietro noi gli Eoni’ [quote from Goethe’s poem]). Manca, a quest'ultima parola orfica, la fede, la quale soltanto potrebbe darle sostanza. Elpis rimane imprigionata nella sfera superstiziosa del demone. È da questo, e non dalla  speranza, che il poeta aspetta la salvezza.”

I am also confused by ‘piety’. It is either meant as (a) superstition vs. ‘piety’, or (b) it refers to the superstition the poet holds. bicontinental in post #7 seems to be pushing for this latter meaning with: “On the other hand, it is in/through the very act of accepting this chaos that true piety knows/recognizes the sole prerequisite for finding a way out of all apparent order.” The Italian text has referred to ‘piety’ previously as ‘devozione’. I posted a query about the beginning of this sentence here:

"Una lettura appena un po’ attenta delle ‘Parole’ mostra che la devozione, che nell’autobiografia era espressa con qualche riserva, qui viene organizzata in una sorta di Credo, in cui confluiscono astrologia e scienza. Poiché ciò che per il poeta era in questione nel demone, era il tentativo di costruire come un destino il nesso fra la sua vita e la sua opera. Il Daimon che apre l’elenco non è più, infatti, un essere inconcepibile e contraddittorio, ma, come testimonia l’inserzione delle strofe nel contesto degli scritti sulla Metamorfosi delle piante, esso è diventato una potenza cosmica e una sorta di legge di natura.”

It perhaps also worth quoting from Goethe’s autobiography ‘Poesia e verità’:

“Egli credette di scoprire nella natura, vivente e morta, animata e inanimata, qualcosa che si manifestava solo in contraddizioni e non poteva essere colto in nessun concetto, e tanto meno m una parola. Non era divino, perché pareva irrazionale; non era umano, poiché era privo di intelligenza; non era diabolico, poiché era benefico; non era angelico, perché rivelava spesso qualcosa di maligno. Somigliava al caso, poiché non mostrava nessuna coerenza; somigliava alla provvidenza, perché alludeva a una connessione. Tutto ciò che ci limita sembrava per esso penetrabile; pareva governare a suo arbitrio gli elementi necessari della nostra esistenza; abbreviava il tempo e ampliava lo spazio. Pareva compiacersi solo dell’impossibi. le e respingere da sé il possibile con disprezzo. A questo essere, che sembrava mescolarsi a tutti gli altri, diedi il nome di demonico, secondo l’esempio degli antichi e di quelli che avevano avvertito qualcosa di simile. Cercai di salvarmi da questo essere temibile”.

So I add a further attempt, by no means the best, drawing on all of your brilliant attempts and very interesting discussions:

"The claim* that what leads to certain success is to put the shapeless chaos of life into some kind of demonic order is unquestionably superstitious; on the other hand, it is the simple acceptance of chaos through true devotion that is the only way to find an escape out of the appearance of order."

[* I think ‘pretend’ would be too weak here as Goethe is writing what he believes to be true]

Or this:

What is unquestionably superstitious is the claim that to ensure success, the shapeless chaos of life needs to be put under the command of a demon; on the contrary, it is rather that the simple acceptance of chaos through true devotion is the only way to find escape from the appearance of order.

This begins to make more sense?


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## london calling

Grazie! Ci potevi dire che si trattava di Goethe....

1. Claim
The noun _claim_ is not the right word here, in my opinion. I changed my translation (see my post 13 : I chose to use 'take for granted' (dare per scontato).  _Pretesa_ translates to 'claim', 'demand' and 'right'. In this case it isn't a 'simple' claim, as there is a certain arrogance underlying  the word 'pretesa': the author means he was demanding a God-given right to etc. etc., which obviously can't be used here, what with all the various deities you mention above. PS. _Pretend_ doesn't just mean_ fare finta di_, it also means 'pretendere'.

2. Pietà
Okay, _piety_ in English means devotion/reverence, so we could use either piety/devotion. I think I prefer 'devotion'.

3. Ordine demonico
I found this book on the internet: 'Goethe's Concept of the Daemonic', so _daemonic/demonic order_ it is.

4. Ordine apparente
Si dice _Apparent Order _in English. I changed it to 'false' when I read pietruzzo's illuminating post. I think I'll correct that, given that it is a set expression.

Credo che il mio tentativo (post 13) si trovi piuttosto d'accordo con quello che ci hai detto qui, ma lo riporto qui, in versione rivista e aggiornata in base alle informazioni che ci hai dato ora. Comunque vorrei sentire  anche EE e Bic.

_His attitude is unquestionably one of superstition, as he takes it for granted that the shapeless chaos of his life can be remoulded into a daemonic order that will, without doubt, ensure success in life; adversely, true devotion means to acknowledge/acknowledging that humble acceptance of chaos is the only means of escape from Apparent Order.
_
Edit. Questa parte mi piace della tua traduzione mi piace:_ it is rather that the simple acceptance of chaos through true devotion is the only way to...._


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## epoqueepique

Ah! You've come back!

Thank you for the excellent feedback!

Just one remark. You write:
''it is the simple acceptance of chaos through true devotion that is...''
To me, _autentica pietá_ is the subject of the original quote, and should remain the subject, or else we deviate...


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## Pietruzzo

london calling said:


> His attitude is unquestionably one of superstition, as he takes it for granted that the shapeless chaos of his life can be remoulded into a daemonic order that will, without doubt, ensure success in life; adversely, true devotion _means to acknowledge/acknowledging _that humble acceptance of chaos is the only means of escape from Apparent Order.


All of that is beyond me but it sounds good. Please check "from Apparent Order". The original Italian reads "ogni ordine apparente"


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## juji

Hi, I did mention Goethe originally, apologies, but then my OP got very complicated and so I deleted the reference. I honestly didn't think anybody would be interested! I'm very happy there has been so many responses. 

@london calling: I love 'attitude'.  Thank you for finding 'Goethe's Concept of the Daemonic'. I have posted a PDF copy here. I think your translation is great, so I am not at all correcting it by posting another version below.

@epoqueepique:  I have changed it accordingly, thank you!

@ Pietruzzo:  I'm thinking that perhaps 'order' could also be 'command'. In which case the 'order' in the first part refers to the demon's command, and the 'order' in the last part refers to order in society in general, perhaps governing 'law'.

"Yet unquestionably superstitious is the attitude that in order to ensure success the shapeless chaos of life needs to be placed under the command of a demon; true devotion, on the contrary, means acknowledging that the simple acceptance of chaos is the only condition to seeking a means of escape from apparent order (if 'law', then 'the existing order' might be better?)."


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## Pietruzzo

juji said:


> comporre il caos informe della propria vita in un ordine demonico





juji said:


> the shapeless chaos of life needs to be placed under the command of a demon


Unfortunately this interpretation is wrong. "Comporre  in un ordine demonico" *cannot *mean "Mettere agli ordini di un demone".
*ordine* _nm_ (disposizione, schema) order, layout _n_
    disposition _n
*ordine* nm (direttiva, disposizione) directive, order n
_


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## juji

Perhaps 'placed under demonic command' or 'in a demonic command'? This would make more sense of 'ordine'.

Yet unquestionably superstitious is the attitude that in order to ensure success the shapeless chaos of life needs to be formed under demonic command; true devotion, on the contrary, means acknowledging that the simple acceptance of chaos is the only condition for seeking a means of escape from all apparent order.

Yet unquestionably superstitious is the attitude that in order to ensure success the shapeless chaos of life needs to be formed under demonic command; true devotion, on the contrary, is rather the simple acceptance of chaos as the only way to find escape from all apparent order.

Of course, I could be wrong — I need to translate the next part of the text and see if I find further clues!


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## london calling

Righty ho, people. A few comments.



Pietruzzo said:


> Please check "from Apparent Order". The original Italian reads "ogni ordine apparente"



I know it says that, but _all or every Apparent Order_  sounds odd in English (although we all translated it that way originally) as it is generally considered as a one-off kind of thing. This I found rather interesting: "Jim Crutchfield illustrates the computational power of Order and Chaos".



juji said:


> I'm thinking that perhaps 'order' could also be 'command'. In which case the 'order' in the first part refers to the demon's command, and the 'order' in the last part refers to order in society in general, perhaps governing 'law'.
> 
> "Yet unquestionably superstitious is the attitude that in order to ensure success the shapeless chaos of life needs to be placed under the command of a demon; true devotion, on the contrary, means acknowledging that the simple acceptance of chaos is the only condition to seeking a means of escape from apparent order (if 'law', then 'the existing order' might be better?)
> "



I thought that _order_ might  mean command too, but have since changed my mind. It is 'order' in both parts, because this whole thing is about Order vs. Chaos. And no, this has nothing to with any laws governing society, in my opinion. The definition of _Apparent Order_ from the link I posted above is, I quote_ "Apparent Order " is "order," but acknowledges that order implies chaos. Without some chaos, there is no order. _ It's a set expression. 



juji said:


> Perhaps 'placed under demonic command' or 'in a demonic command'? This would make more sense of 'ordine'.


Same answer as above: _order_, not command.

Per sintetizzare. Adesso abbiamo capito che qui si parla di ordine vs. chaos e quindi, per mantenere la coerenza del discorso,  bisogna tradurre con _order_ and _chaos. _Secondo me.

EE and Bic, does my reasoning and of my last version of the translation pass muster? Any changes you feel should be made or parts which you think do not quite convey the idea (or just sounds weird?). I've given this so much thought that I'm now unable to trust my own judgement!


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## bicontinental

@LC: 





> Any changes you feel should be made or parts which you think do not quite convey the idea (or just sounds weird?). I've given this so much thought that I'm now unable to trust my own judgement!


I know what you mean



> Yet unquestionably superstitious is the attitude that in order to ensure success the shapeless *chaos* of life *needs to be formed* under demonic command; true *devotion*, on the contrary, *is* rather the simple *acceptance of chaos as* the only way to find escape from all apparent order.



To my eye this translation looks very nice. I have just a few final comments/questions:

Do you _form_ or do you _create_ chaos? Maybe the former sounds more poetic, but the latter sounds more natural, at least to my ear 

I’m sorry to bring this up again, but I don’t think that anyone has addressed it yet, and I’m curious to know what you (all) think:

I find that the original sentence expresses the idea that it is by/’in’ the very acceptance of this chaos (proprio nella sobria accettazione di quel caos ) *that* true devotion finds the only escape from all apparent order.

In other words, it’s by the acceptance of chaos that the only escape is found. It is not the acceptance of chaos *as* the only way to find escape, is it?

I realize the differences are subtle, but does it make sense or am I wrong? (I wonder what it said in the original _Aus meinem Leben, Dichtung und Wahrheit._ By now my German is so rusty it probably wouldn’t do me much good to see it anyway)

But...it’s been fun to be part of this educational exercise!

Bic.


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## epoqueepique

bicontinental said:


> Do you _form_ or do you _create_ chaos? Maybe the former sounds more poetic, but the latter sounds more natural, at least to my ear



I suggested this (in post #8), but forgot to mention the word chaos... (as LC gently observed in post #10):
_But pretending to *organize* (the chaos of) one's life into some kind of successful demonic order is necessarily (for ''necessarily'' we need previous context) superstitious; on the contrary, true piety is in acknowledging that the very acceptance of this chaos is the sole condition to finding a way out of all apparent order._


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## london calling

Bic, the translation you quote is not mine. Juji took parts of it and re-wrote it. The part you are talking about is actually her version, not mine:  _true *devotion*, on the contrary, *is* rather the simple *acceptance of chaos as* the only way to find escape from all apparent order._ 

This is the last thing I came up with:

_His attitude is unquestionably one of superstition, as he takes it for granted that the shapeless chaos of his life can be remoulded into a daemonic order that will, without doubt, ensure success in life; adversely, true devotion means to acknowledge/acknowledging that humble acceptance of chaos is the only means of escape from Apparent Order._

My second part is based on Pietruzzo's re-writing of the original (with which Juji agreed):
_
Al contrario la vera pietà(devozione, spirito religioso) consiste nel riconoscere che l'umile accettazione del caos è il solo modo per sfuggire al falso ordine(demonico)_

And as you can see I use _remould_ and not _form_.

So, how can I improve it?


PS. I think it's 'demonic' in AE, but I'm a Brit, so....


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## bicontinental

london calling said:


> _His attitude is unquestionably one of superstition, as he takes it for granted that the shapeless chaos of his life can be remoulded into a daemonic order that will, without doubt, ensure success in life; adversely, true devotion means to acknowledge/acknowledging that humble acceptance of chaos is the only means of escape from Apparent Order._



I think this looks excellent, LC! And now I just hope
1. -that juji agrees,
2. -that the rest of the translation of this work is more straight forward.


Yes 'demonic' looks fine spelled with just the 'e'...American orthography takes the easy way out!


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## london calling

I bet the rest of the translation is as bad if not worse.  Poor juji, I hope it isn't too long.


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## epoqueepique

We can do the rest...


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## juji

Many thanks to everyone for their comments! The community spirit on this forum is really rather wonderful.



london calling said:


> His attitude is unquestionably one of superstition, as he takes it for granted that the shapeless chaos of his life can be remoulded into a daemonic order that will, without doubt, ensure success in life; adversely, true devotion _means to acknowledge/acknowledging _that humble acceptance of chaos is the only means of escape from Apparent Order.



Lovely translation! I think 'remould' is very good. Do you think 'mould' might work too? Goethe in the poem 'Urworte' uses the verb 'bilden', to make, shape, build, form, develop.

I agree with bicontinental:



bicontinental said:


> I find that the original sentence expresses the idea that it is by/’in’ the very acceptance of this chaos (proprio nella sobria accettazione di quel caos ) *that* true devotion finds the only escape from all apparent order.
> 
> In other words, it’s by the acceptance of chaos that the only escape is found. It is not the acceptance of chaos *as* the only way to find escape, is it?



In an 1820 edition of Goethe's _Zur Morphologie_, and immediately after 'Urworte', these lines in Latin:

Natura infinita est
sed qui symbola animadverterit
omnia intelliget
licet non omnino

Nature is infinite
– he who attends to symbols
will know all
but not everything

(Similar is the refrain: 'Willst du ins Unendliche schreiten, geh’ im Endlichen nach allen Seiten!'
[If you want to stride the infinite, just go and explore everything in the finite.]
Goethe, 'Gott, Gemüt und Welt', 1815.)

Later Goethe added a small commentary to the first 'Daimon' stanza of 'Urworte' (which I've tried to translate from the German):

"The demon here means the necessary and limited individuality and character of the person, which is definitively pronounced at birth, and through which the individuality of people differs from each other no matter how great their similarity. This determination was assigned under an influencing heavenly body, and it it may well be the infinitely varied movements and relationships of the heavenly bodies, among themselves and in relation to the world, which mainly account for the countless variations of births. On this the future fate of mankind is dependent, and admitting this first determining, confessing it even, it may well be the case that innate strength and individuality more than anything rule the fate of mankind.

"Therefore, this verse asserts the immutability of of the individual repeatedly. The thus-determined being, as a finite being, can  be totally destroyed, but, so long as his core being holds together, he cannot be splintered or fragmented, even across generations.

This strong, tough being, this being that has evolved only through itself, comes in many shapes and forms indeed, whereby its first and original character is now inhibited in its doings, is hindered in its dispositions, and what here now enters, our philosophy calls: Tyche [Chance]."

[Goethe Gedichte, ed. Erich Trunz (Münich: C.H. Beck, 1998) p.403]

I have some success reading _Conversations of Goethe _by Johann Peter Eckermann, where he and Goethe discuss the daemonic.

(Eckermann) “Is the Daemonic … perceptible in events…?”
(Goethe) “Particularly … and, indeed, in all which we cannot explain by Reason and Understanding. It manifests itself in the most varied manner throughout all nature — in the invisible as in the visible.” 

"It is a productive force, incredibly powerful. It goes beyond all bounds," Eckermann writes later.

Urworte/Orphisch:

Daimon [il Demone]
“Even as the sun and planets stood, to salute one another, on the day you entered the world - even so you began straightaway to grow and have continued to do so, according to the law [Gesetz] that prevailed over your beginning. It is thus that you must be, you cannot escape yourself - seers and sybils said the same thing long ago; and no time or power can destroy the '*shape* impressed' [Geprägte *Form*] upon evolving life.

Chance, la Sorte [Tyche]
“And yet these stern bounds are obligingly transgressed by an element of change which moves with us and around us; one does not remain in isolation, one is *moulded* in society [*bildest* dich gesellig] and falls in with the ways of others. Life falls out sometimes this way, sometimes that; it is a trifle, and thus it is trifled away. Already the circle of the years has quietly completed itself: the lamp awaits the kindling flame.

Love, l'Amore [Eros]
“And sure enough it comes. The god, who once soared from the ancient wilderness up to heaven, plunges down and thence towards us like a bird on airy pinions and flutters around our heads and breasts all through the spring day; at times he seems to withdraw, but he returns from his withdrawal; then our anguish is delight and our tremor is sweetness. Many a heart wanders and is lost in too general a love; but the noblest devotes itself to one object alone.

Necessity, la Necessità [Ananche]
“And then, once more, what the stars have decreed comes to pass — the condition, the law is imposed; and all our will is a mere willing of what we were bound to do, and before this will creativity is dumb; what we have loved most dearly is angrily driven from our hearts, and wish and whim submit to a hard ‘must’. Such then is our illusory freedom — after many years we are more bound more tightly than at the start.

Hope, la Speranza [Elpsis]
“And yet the dread gate in this imprisoning brazen wall can be unbolted, though it stand firm as ancient rock! There is a Being that moves, lightly and untrammelled, lifting us with her out of cloudy skies, fog and showers of rain, giving us wings: you know her well, she roves from zone to zone; one of her wing-beats - and aeons fall behind us.”

Finally, 'order' reflects Goethe’s notion of a binary tension between the creative individual and the constraint of formal rules. But the Daimon also imposes common limitations on human beings. As Eckermann writes: "We seem to see further and more clearly, but soon perceive that the object is too great and manifold, and that our eyes only reach a certain limit."


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## london calling

juji said:


> Many thanks to everyone for their comments! The community spirit on this forum is really rather wonderful.
> 
> Lovely translation! I think 'remould' is very good. Do you think 'mould' might work too? Goethe in the poem 'Urworte' uses the verb 'bilden', to make, shape, build, form, develop. *I think so*.
> 
> I agree with bicontinental.


Ok, but please post the final version so we can see it.


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## bicontinental

Thanks for all the extra background information which I find very interesting (even if it’s far from light reading in my opinion )



juji said:


> Lovely translation! I think 'remould' is very good. Do you think 'mould' might work too? Goethe in the poem 'Urworte' uses the verb 'bilden', to make, shape, build, form, develop.



If I have understood the philosophical content of the quotes correctly, it seems that one underlying idea here is the stability of the individual’s core form, the degree to which it remains unchanged:



> …this verse asserts the immutability of the individual repeatedly





> Daimon [il Demone]
> ...and no time or power can destroy the '*shape* impressed' [Geprägte *Form*] upon evolving life.



Taking that into consideration, assuming it’s correct of course, plus the fact that ‘_bilden_’ is the verb used in the original format, I think it would be more in keeping with the concept presented above to use just _mould_ and not _re-mould._ That should also be an acceptable translation of the Italian “comporre” as far as I can tell.

Best,

Bic.


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## epoqueepique

That sure was a tough one
I'd love to see the final version too!


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## Paulfromitaly

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