# Urdu-Hindi: kii bajaa'e vs ke bajaa'e



## Qureshpor

Do you use "kii bajaa'e" or "ke bajaa'e"? Which one do you feel is the correct or preferred usage?


----------



## BP.

I think I'm hearing the first for the first time.


----------



## Qureshpor

BelligerentPacifist said:


> I think I'm hearing the first for the first time.



I am flabbergasted!


----------



## BP.

Whenever you think you've known it all, the world springs another surprise at you!


----------



## Qureshpor

BelligerentPacifist said:


> Whenever you think you've known it all, the world springs another surprise at you!



na3uuzu billaah! It would be an utter absurdity if I claimed I knew everything. I am surprised that you have never come across "kii bajaa'e". That's all.


----------



## Alfaaz

> Do you use "kii bajaa'e" or "ke bajaa'e"? Which one do you feel is the correct or preferred usage?


At first glance, I would say that I've heard the first more by Hindi speakers/media....while the second seems to be used more by Urdu speakers/media.

Then again, there seems to be something more complex for some speakers (Urdu and Hindi):
aaj daal ki bajaa'e gosht banaa lo 
but...
aaj gosht ke bajaa'e daal banaa lo

Then it seems that some of us use both randomly, without giving much attention to or knowing which one is correct....

will be interesting to read the conclusion/answer to the thread! (If I remember correctly, this was discussed somewhere else also...or maybe not...)


----------



## Qureshpor

Alfaaz said:


> At first glance, I would say that I've heard the first more by Hindi speakers/media....while the second seems to be used more by Urdu speakers/media.
> 
> Then again, there seems to be something more complex for some speakers (Urdu and Hindi):
> aaj daal ki bajaa'e gosht banaa lo
> but...
> aaj gosht ke bajaa'e daal banaa lo
> 
> Then it seems that some of us use both randomly, without giving much attention to or knowing which one is correct....
> 
> will be interesting to read the conclusion/answer to the thread! (If I remember correctly, this was discussed somewhere else also...or maybe not...)



You being, as ever, your typically sure self! I did try to search this topic before posting but could not find anything. 

daal kii thaalii
gosht kii boTii

daal ke chhilke
gosht ke tukRe

You will notice that kii/kaa/ke depends on the gender of the following word and not the preceding one!!


----------



## marrish

QURESHPOR said:


> Do you use "kii bajaa'e" or "ke bajaa'e"? Which one do you feel is the correct or preferred usage?


I feel they are both correct but I use _kii bajaa'e_ rather than _ke bajaa'e_.


----------



## Alfaaz

Qureshpor said:
			
		

> You will notice that kii/kaa/ke depends on the gender of the following word and not the preceding one!!


Yes, I was just presenting three different views/observations of speakers!
1) Urdu speakers seem to use ke bajaa'e more than kii (while searching, I found a thread in which I wrote kii bajaa'e but Faylasoof wrote ke bajaa'e in response to the question...)
2) Some speakers tend to use ke and ki depending on gender _(even if it might not make sense gramatically as you have illustrated)_ ; observation from Hindi and Urdu news and media....
3) Some speakers use both!  As you might have already guessed (guessing by your comment): "_You being, as ever, your typically sure self!"
_


----------



## BP.

QURESHPOR said:


> na3uuzu billaah! It would be an utter absurdity if I claimed I knew everything. I am surprised that you have never come across "kii bajaa'e". That's all.


Sorry if I spoke without thinking enough about it. I just meant that you might have anticipated your ignorance about my ignorance
Let me stop drifting...

If indeed 





> You will notice that kii/kaa/ke depends on the gender of the following word and not the preceding one!!


 is true, then maybe we do have an aberration here, because jaa is feminine.

I once pondered over whether the use of kee (or kii too as you say) is supernecessary, and that bajaa2ee suffices on its own. The non-prefix use of the term however, in my hypothesis, not being habitual for the speaker, causes/d the insertion of k.. (1), and we might never have learnt which version of it to insert.

Look at the example "maiN nee bajaa2ee sharbat paanii piyaa". It is in my view grammatically correct. Now reverse the order of the two beverages: "maiN nee paanii bajaa2ee sharbat piyaa". The meaning doesn't change, but the possibility of mal-comprehension suddenly increases. I think we mentally unwind it to "maiN nee sharbat kii jaa par paanii piyaa" and say on the template of the first sentence "maiN nee sharbat _kee _bajaa2ee paanii piyaa".

(1) Scroll down to posix, first table, here.


----------



## Qureshpor

BelligerentPacifist said:


> Sorry if I spoke without thinking enough about it. I just meant that you might have anticipated your ignorance about my ignorance
> Let me stop drifting...
> 
> If indeed  is true, then maybe we do have an aberration here, because jaa is feminine.
> 
> I once pondered over whether theuse of kee (or kii too as you say) is supernecessary, and that bajaa2ee suffices on its own. The non-prefix use of the term however, in my hypothesis, not being habitual for the speaker, causes/d the insertion of k??, and we might never have learnt which version of it to insert.
> 
> Look at the example "maiN nee bajaa2ee sharbat paanii piyaa". It is in my view grammatically correct. Now reverse the order of the two beverages: "maiN nee paanii bajaa2ee sharbat piyaa". The meaning doesn't change, but the possibility of malcomprehension suddenly increased. I think we mentally unwind it to "maiN nee sharbat kii jaa par paanii piyaa" and say on the template of the first sentence "maiN nee sharbat _kee _bajaa2ee paanii piyaa".



No hard feelings, BP SaaHib.

There are two issues here.

1) Should we use kii bajaa'e or ke bajaa'e?

2) Is there a need for kii or ke in the first place?

For 1), let us wait for others' views.

For 2), I am with you all the way. If I am understanding you correctly, the "ba-jaa-i-X" (or ba-jaa-e-X) already has "kaa/kii/ke" in the form of an izaafat. So the use of kii/ke bajaa'e ends up having two "of"s just as I tried to explain in the "sivaa/sivaa'e" thread. 

maiN ne *bajaa'e sharbat* paanii piyaa = I drank water *in place of/in stead of sherbet.
*
maiN ne paani, *bajaa'e sharbat* piyaa = I drank water, *in place of/in stead of sherbet.
*
 maiN ne *paani bajaa'e* sharbat piyaa = I drank sherbet *in place of/in stead of water.
*


----------



## BP.

You understood perfectly, and even made it easier for me to understand what I'd written!

Come to think of it, we do shed the _kee _off in the reflexive case: _apnee bajaa2ee_ or _bajaa2ee khud_. The first of these seems to suffer from gender confusion, and technically should've been _apnii bajaa2ee_, following the gender of _jaa_. Maybe _apnee _doubles as neuter.


----------



## Qureshpor

BelligerentPacifist said:


> You understood perfectly, and even made it easier for me to understand what I'd written!
> 
> Come to think of it, we do shed the _kee _off in the reflexive case: _apnee bajaa2ee_ or _bajaa2ee khud_. The first of these seems to suffer from gender confusion, and technically should've been _apnii bajaa2ee_, following the gender of _jaa_. Maybe _apnee _doubles as neuter.




We don't really because:-

apnaa = "apun *kaa*"/"xud *kaa*"

ba-jaa-*e *, as I have said already indicated, has the izaafat which is effectively equivalent to kaa/kii/ke


----------



## greatbear

I am also hearing "kii bajaa'e" for the first time!


----------



## UrduMedium

QURESHPOR said:


> Do you use "kii bajaa'e" or "ke bajaa'e"? Which one do you feel is the correct or preferred usage?



I say and mostly hear "ke bajaa'e". I have heard "kii bajaa'e" also though.


----------



## BP.

QURESHPOR said:


> We don't really because:-
> apnaa = "apun *kaa*"/"xud *kaa*"...


I didn't know apun existed in Urdu or Hindi. It was this forum probably that told me it was a Marathi word.


----------



## greatbear

BelligerentPacifist said:


> I didn't know apun existed in Urdu or Hindi. It was this forum probably that told me it was a Marathi word.



It's Mumbaiyya Hindi; in other words, _chaluu_ or slang Hindi.


----------



## Qureshpor

I don't know whether you might have missed this thread Faylasoof SaaHib. In marrish SaaHib's "zahiiniyyat" thread you expressed your choice for "ke bajaa'e". I prefer to use "kii bajaa'e" purely because "jaa" = jagah is feminine. Your thoughts please.


----------



## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> I don't know whether you might have missed this thread Faylasoof SaaHib. In marrish SaaHib's "zahiiniyyat" thread you expressed your choice for "ke bajaa'e". I prefer to use "kii bajaa'e" purely because "jaa" = jagah is feminine. Your thoughts please.


 Well QP SaaHib it seems I did miss this one! We always say _ke bajaa'e_:

_is jagah / laRkii / 3aurat / xadimah ke bajaa'e
is mauqe3 / laRke / mard / xaadim ke bajaa'e 
_


----------



## marrish

Trying  to investigate the matter further I came to know that Platts gives *ke bajaa'e* only. There is no doubt *jaa* or *jaa'e* is feminine so I thought that the particle ba- would block the gender agreement between _kaa_ and _jaa_. However, it is not always the case. I could think of two similar postpositions for the purpose of comparison: _ba-daulat_ and _ba-nisbat_, both of them are based on a feminine noun. I'll have to strain my grey matter harder for other analogies. Now, this comparison leaves us where we departed from because the kii version scores in when compared with *kii ba-daulat* but loses against *ke ba-nisbat*!


----------



## marrish

In "luGhaat-e-roz~marrah", Shamsur Rahman Faruqi writes:
کی بجاے/کےبجاے: زیادہتر "کےبجاے" لکھا دیکھا گیا ہے۔ مستند لوگوں میں صرف محمد حسن عسکری التزاماً "کیبجاے"لکھتےتھے اس باعث 
کی بجاے"کوغلط نہیں کہا جا سکتا لیکن "کےبجاے"کوترجیح ہو گی۔
​_kii bajaae/ke bajaae: ziyaadah tar "ke bajaae" likhaa dekhaa gayaa hae. mustanad logoN meN sirf muHammad Hasan 3askarii iltizaaman "kii bajaae" likhte the is baa3is "kii bajaae" ko Ghalat nahiiN kahaa jaa saktaa lekin "ke bajaae" ko tarjiiH ho gii._

But on p. 2 of the introduction to the Farhang-e-Asafiyyah the author, Syed Ahmad Khan Dihlavi himself writes:
جب سے کسی ملک کی خاص زبان میں دوسرے ملک کی زبان کے الفاظ داخل ہونے شروع ہو جائیں تو یہ سمجھ لینا چاہئیے کہ کسی نئی زبان کی بُنیاد 
پڑی۔ اور اصل الفاظ *کی بجائے* نئے الفاظ نے اپنا قدم جمایا۔ جس سے پُرانی زبان کے لغات میں تنزُّل اور جدید الفاظ میں ترقّی کا آغاز ہو گیا ہے۔
​_jab se kisii mulk kii xaas zabaan meN duusre mulk kii zabaan ke alfaaz daaxil hone shuruu3 ho jaa'eN to yih samajh lenaa chaahi'ye kih kisii na'ii zabaan kii bunyaad paRii. aur asl alfaaz kii bajaa'e na'e alfaaz ne apnaa qadam jamaayaa. jis se puraanii zabaan ke luGhaat meN tanazzul aur jadiid alfaaz meN taraqqii kaa aaGhaaz ho gayaa hae._


----------



## Qureshpor

^ marrish SaaHib, thank you for presenting views from both side of the argument.


----------



## gagun

BP. said:


> I didn't know apun existed in Urdu or Hindi. It was this forum probably that told me it was a Marathi word.



don't know about apun but apan exists in urdu's slang


----------

