# Persian: طوطی lovebird as a female given name



## Stars011

Is this used as a female forename in Iran? I read it was once used in Ottoman Turkey times (Female Slaves’ Names – 16th-Century Istanbul ŞAİR BAKİ' NİN CARİYE TUTİ' YE OLAN AŞKI - Naim ÖZGÜNER  yazısı - Haber Name). Does it mean "lovebird" like I've read? Or does it just mean parrot? How is this name pronounced? Thank you


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## eskandar

In contemporary Iran طوطی (tūtī) means parrot and is not used as a personal name.


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## Qureshpor

Stars011 said:


> Is this used as a female forename in Iran? I read it was once used in Ottoman Turkey times (Female Slaves’ Names – 16th-Century Istanbul ŞAİR BAKİ' NİN CARİYE TUTİ' YE OLAN AŞKI - Naim ÖZGÜNER  yazısı - Haber Name). Does it mean "lovebird" like I've read? Or does it just mean parrot? How is this name pronounced? Thank you


Amir Khusrau Dehlavi is known as tuutii-I-Hind (literally the parrot of India). I believe a parrot is a symbol for eloquent speech and Khusrau in his time rivalled with the best, home and abroad.

The above is an epithet  but I personally am not aware of anyone, male or female, having been given this as a name by the parents.

By the way, طوطی though the common format is also written as توتی.


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## PersoLatin

As a native of iran I have never heard of anyone by that name.

In fact طوطی (parrot not lovebird) can be used in a derogatory way for people who speak too much.


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## PersoLatin

PersoLatin said:


> As a native of iran I have never heard of anyone by that name.


I was just talking to two of my Iranian friends, (on a video call), about this thread’s topic, to my surprise both of them said their paternal grandmothers were called توتی, with this spelling & as far as they know, this name has no association with the bird.

توت is a general name for “berries” but on its own it refers to mulberries which are white in colour and, unlike most other berries, very sweet.


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## Qureshpor

Platts dictionary has the following entry.

طوطی/ٹوٹی

i) A parrot, parquet

ii) The small singing bird
Loxia rosea or Carpodacus erythrinus

iii) (metaphorically) A sweet tongued or eloquent speaker

Perhaps, the two grandmothers' name is connected to ii) or iii)


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## PersoLatin

Qureshpor said:


> iii) (metamorically) A sweet tongued or eloquent speaker
> 
> Perhaps, the two grandmothers' name is connected to ii) or iii)


The term طوطی‌وار or parrot-fashion somewhat contradicts that idea but I suppose the older generations had different ideas about parrots.


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## Qureshpor

PersoLatin said:


> The term طوطی‌وار or parrot-fashion somewhat contradicts that idea but I suppose the older generations had different ideas about parrots.


Well, here is a quote from Hafiz who famously said:

شکر شکن شوند ہمہ طوطیان ہند
زاین قند پارسی کہ بہ بنگالہ میرود

All the parrots of India will become sweet-tongued
With the Persian candy that goes [all the way] to Bengal

(Translation not mine)


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## rarabara

Stars011 said:


> Is this used as a female forename in Iran? I read it was once used in Ottoman Turkey times (Female Slaves’ Names – 16th-Century Istanbul ŞAİR BAKİ' NİN CARİYE TUTİ' YE OLAN AŞKI - Naim ÖZGÜNER  yazısı - Haber Name). Does it mean "lovebird" like I've read? Or does it just mean parrot? How is this name pronounced? Thank you


hi,according to turkish resources (but to ottoman dictionary)  "tûti" ("*طوطی")  *

means a type of parrot which  is imitating.


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## PersoLatin

> شکرشکن شوند همه طوطیان هند
> زین قند پارسی که به بنگاله می‌رود


Isn’t حافظ saying, the parrots of India will become شکر‌شکن because they will be rewarded with sugar lumps while learning & reciting Persian poetry (قند پارسی)?

So they literally become sweet-tongued because they are enticed with sugar lumps & metaphorically sweet-tongued when they recite Persian poetry, and the literal & metaphoric merge into one.


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## Qureshpor

PersoLatin said:


> Isn’t حافظ saying, the parrots of India will become شکر‌شکن because they will be rewarded with sugar lumps while learning & reciting Persian poetry (قند پارسی)?
> 
> So they literally become sweet-tongued because they are enticed with sugar lumps & metaphorically sweet-tongued when they recite Persian poetry, and the literal & metaphoric merge into one.


No he is saying that when his qand-i-paarsii reaches India, the parrots (the poets) of India will also be sweet-tongued if they were to imitate his style.


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## PersoLatin

Qureshpor said:


> No he is saying that when his qand-i-paarsii reaches India, the parrots (the poets) of India will also be sweet-tongued if they were to imitate his style.


That’s an interpretation, the words certainly don’t say that. Ok then in that interpretation طوطی is a figurative reference to poets of India, as you say, but for a poet to be likened to a parrot can not be complementary, as by extension, they are just repeating words & not understanding them, I can’t see حافظ doing that,


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## eskandar

PersoLatin said:


> for a poet to be likened to a parrot can not be complementary, as by extension, they are just repeating words & not understanding them


If you want to understand Persian poetry, it would behoove you to learn more about traditional Persianate culture. There are very different sets of associations operating in Persian texts than in the Anglophone world. For example, in the West owls are a symbol of wisdom, but in Persian literature they're associated with evil, inauspiciousness, gloom, and idiocy. Similarly, in English parrots are associated with mindless repetition ("parroting" someone else's ideas, for example), but in classical Persian literature they are symbols of eloquence, similar to the nightingale. For that reason the great poet Amir Khosrow was called--favorably--the "parrot of India" (طوتی هند).



PersoLatin said:


> but for a poet to be likened to a parrot can not be complementary ... I can’t see حافظ doing that,


Hafez himself does exactly that when he describes himself as a parrot: طوطی طبعم ز عشق شکر و بادام دوست . Many other poets boasted of their eloquence by comparing themselves to poets, like when Mohtasham Kashani says: زبان طوطی نطقم ز غصه لال شده .


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## marrish

eskandar said:


> ز غصه لال شده .


Really?  Does it just mean what I'm thinking?


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## eskandar

marrish said:


> Really?  Does it just mean what I'm thinking?


What are you thinking? Here is the full context. The part you quoted means "has fallen dumb (mute) from grief".


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## marrish

I had Urdu "غصہ سے لال ہؤا Ghusse se laal hu'aa/-ii" in mind  (became red from anger)۔


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## eskandar

Haha, it didn't occur to me to parse it in Urdu


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## Alfaaz

Qureshpor said:
			
		

> Amir Khusrau Dehlavi is known as tuutii-I-Hind (literally the parrot of India). I believe a parrot is a symbol for eloquent speech and Khusrau in his time rivalled with the best, home and abroad.
> 
> The above is an epithet


In addition, طوطیِ طوس seems to be used for _Firdausi_.


			
				Qureshpor said:
			
		

> Platts dictionary has the following entry.
> ...





			
				PersoLatin said:
			
		

> In fact طوطی (parrot not lovebird) can be used in a derogatory way for people who speak too much.





			
				eskandar said:
			
		

> Similarly, in English parrots are associated with mindless repetition ("parroting" someone else's ideas, for example), but in classical Persian literature they are symbols of eloquence, similar to the nightingale.


 The entry for the variant form توتا indicates that it can be used as a term of endearment for children. Does such usage exist in current Irani Persian or is it always employed in a derogatory sense?


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## eskandar

Alfaaz said:


> The entry for the variant form توتا indicates that it can be used as a term of endearment for children. Does such usage exist in current Irani Persian or is it always employed in a derogatory sense?


توتا doesn't exist in Iranian Persian, and as far as I can tell, it's just a Hindi/Urdu word, not in use in Persian (whether in Iran or South Asia). I don't see it recorded in any Persian dictionaries.


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## Alfaaz

eskandar said:
			
		

> توتا doesn't exist in Iranian Persian, and as far as I can tell, it's just a Hindi/Urdu word, not in use in Persian (whether in Iran or South Asia). I don't see it recorded in any Persian dictionaries.


 Please excuse the potentially confusing wording in my previous post. I was wondering if طوطی - _parrot_ is ever used positively/as a term of endearment for children or if it is only used as a metaphor for an excessively talkative person as PersoLatin suggested?


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## PersoLatin

eskandar said:


> Similarly, in English parrots are associated with mindless repetition ("parroting" someone else's ideas, for example), but in classical Persian literature they are symbols of eloquence,


I am happy to learn from any situation, I am aware of symbolic meanings of nightingales, owls, wolves, lions, scorpions etc. in Persian literature, what you are saying is that association of parrots with repetition is an English influence in modern Persian (??). I’m not sure when parrot-fashion came into the English language but you would’ve thought with the long association of the British with the subcontinent, they would've come across  classical Persian & wondered why their view of parrots is so wildly different and maybe re-evaluated its meaning, maybe they did.


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## marrish

Sorry for adding Urdu to all of this, but since different linguistic perspectives and a broader _Persianate_ culture have already been brought forward, I hope it be of some interest at least to Urdu speaking persons who've taken part. It's relevant to the thread insofar as the gender of the word (unlike Persian, Urdu nouns are either masculine or feminine) is discussed here. The conclusion is that in modern language it's a masculine noun. (لغات روزمرہ، شمس الرحمٰن فاروقی، ۲۰۱۰)
[* طوطی *بعض کا قول ہے کہ اس پرندے کا نام واحد حالت میں مذکر ہے، لیکن جمع کی حالت میں مونث۔ امداد علی بحر کا شعر ہے :
سحر کی باتیں ہیں غنچہ سا دہن گل ہو گیا  … …  طوطی روے مخطط صاف بلبل ہو گیا

غالب نے اپنے مکتوب مورخہ ۸ دسمبر ۱۸۶۳ میں میر مہدی مجروح کو لکھا ہے:
"طوطی بولتا ہے۔ بلبل بولتی ہے۔"

امداد علی بحر ؔ ہی نے جمع کی حالت میں مؤنث باندھا ہے   ؎
آئینہ ہوتا ہے منھ دیکھ کے پانی پانی   … …  طوطیاں ہوتی ہیں سن کر تری تقریر سفید

بحر کے دیوان "ریاض البحر" مطبوعہ لکھنؤ، ۱۸۶۸ میں یہ شعر یوں درج ہے  ؎
آئینہ ہوتا ہی منھ دیکھ کی پانی پانی … … طوطیاں ہوتی ہیں سن کر تری تقریر سفید

یہاں چونکہ چھوٹی ی اور بڑی ے کی کتابت میں فرق نہیں کیا گیا ہے، اس لئے ممکن ہے کہ بحر نے "طوطیاں ہوتے ہیں" لکھا ہو۔ نظیر اکبر آبادی نے البتہ صاف مونث لکھا ہے  ؎
بولے جو شوم بھڑوا مار اس کے سر پہ جوتی  … …  دو دن تو دوستوں میں بلوا لے اپنی طوطی

اس سے اس قول کی تردید ہو جاتی ہے کہ واحد کی حالت میں یہ لفظ مذکر ہے۔ صاحب "آصفیہ" نے اسے صرف مذکر لکھا ہے، لیکن نظیر کی سند کے ساتھ کہا ہے کہ آج کل لوگوں کی زبان پر مونث ہی ہے۔ لیکن نظیر کے سوا جتنے شعر انھوں نے نقل کئے ہیں سب میں یہ مذکر ہی بندھا ہے۔ عبدالرشید نے مثالوں سے ثابت کیا ہے کہ ولی اور سودا نے اسے مونث باندھا ہے۔ شان الحق حقی نے اسے مذکر بتایا ہے اور آج کے زمانے میں یہی درست ہے اور یہ قول اب درست نہیں کہ جمع کی حالت میں یہ لفظ مونث ہے اور واحد کی حالت میں مذکر۔


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