# Urdu: طلبیدن



## Alfaaz

*Background:* Online Urdu Dictionary Word of the Day: طلبیدن

*Question:* How would this be used in a sentence? Is it a noun or a verb (the definition given is خواہش کرنا/_khaahish karnaa_ which makes it sounds like a verb...but it is listed as an _ism_)?

_*Attempts: 
*Kulfi par nazar paRte hi usne kulfi khane ki talbiidan (instead of khaahish ki)...
Insaan ko khaab dekhne chaahiyeN aur talbiidan chahiye! Issi se to zindagi ka ihsaas hota hai! (instead of kaahish karnaa)

_The "shortage" of verbs in Urdu/Hindi and "abundance" of nouns/adjectives has been discussed previously and this query seems to be related to that...


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## Qureshpor

Alfaaz said:


> *Background:* Online Urdu Dictionary Word of the Day: طلبیدن
> 
> *Question:* How would this be used in a sentence? Is it a noun or a verb (the definition given is خواہش کرنا/_khaahish karnaa_ which makes it sounds like a verb...but it is listed as an _ism_)?
> 
> _*Attempts:
> *Kulfi par nazar paRte hi usne kulfi khane ki talbiidan (instead of khaahish ki)...
> Insaan ko khaab dekhne chaahiyeN aur talbiidan chahiye! Issi se to zindagi ka ihsaas hota hai! (instead of kaahish karnaa)
> 
> _The "shortage" of verbs in Urdu/Hindi and "abundance" of nouns/adjectives has been discussed previously and this query seems to be related to that...




Your query is in the same vein as lafz_puchnevala when he was enquiring about "fareftan". talabiidan is a Persian verb and it is NOT used in this form. talab karnaa/bujhaanaa/talabii honaa yes but not talabiidan.

A little bit of useless information for you. talabiidan is one of few verbs in the Persian language that are generated from Arabic nouns. Another one is raqsiidan, no prizes for guessing its root! (cf. Urdu garmaanaa, sharmaanaa etc, based on Persian).

If you search under the ending -na in Platts, you will be astonished to see that there are many many verbs which are no longer used in Urdu/Hindi. As you have indicated a lot of them have become "nominal", e.g koshish karnaa, naaraaz honaa, qarz lenaa and so on and so forth.


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## Alfaaz

Thanks for the interesting reply! Just a quick question, if you don't mind: if this is not used in Urdu, why is it included in the dictionary...?


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## Qureshpor

Alfaaz said:


> Thanks for the interesting reply! Just a quick question, if you don't mind: if this is not used in Urdu, why is it included in the dictionary...?



Could you please provide a reference.


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## Alfaaz

> Could you please provide a reference.



The only reference is the online dictionary right now...(link given above)


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## Qureshpor

Alfaaz said:


> The only reference is the online dictionary right now...(link given above)



Well, I have failed my "obsevation skills" test! It is still early in the morning. It can only get better!

I can't really think of a logical reason for its inclusion. I've just looked in a "Classical" Urdu dictionary and "talabiidan" is not listed there. Besides, talabiidan is not Arabic as the dictionary indicates; talab is for sure. Don't believe everything you read, including what I am writing!!


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## Alfaaz

> Don't believe everything you read, including what I am writing!!



; Asked this question because often in _"high register"_ Urdu and especially poetry, Arabic and Persian words are included/used as in the original languages or _Urdu-ized_...(there was a discussion about this on PTV a while back, where modern/young poets participated: some prefer using very simple language while others enjoy employing words that might not be known to general public (or might not even be Urdu words) like awaail...)

So maybe طلبیدن could also be used in Urdu...


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## Qureshpor

Alfaaz said:


> ; Asked this question because often in _"high register"_ Urdu and especially poetry, Arabic and Persian words are included/used as in the original languages or _Urdu-ized_...(there was a discussion about this on PTV a while back, where modern/young poets participated: some prefer using very simple language while others enjoy employing words that might not be known to general public (or might not even be Urdu words) like awaail...)
> 
> So maybe طلبیدن could also be used in Urdu...



avaa'il is definitely part of the Urdu language. "avaa'i-i-3umr" (childhood), "biisviiN sadii 3iisavii ke avaa'il meN" (In the early part of the 20th century of the Christian era).


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## Alfaaz

> avaa'il is definitely part of the Urdu language



Certainly not denying that, just providing an example of how words might be used in some cases/settings that common people (like an engineer or gol-guppe wala) might not use in day to day conversations...so could talabiidan be one of those words-perhaps used in formal documents/poetry...
...and even if it isn't, could it be used/"coined" if one doesn't want to use ________ karna _(needs a single word)...?


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## Qureshpor

Alfaaz said:


> Certainly not denying that, just providing an example of how words might be used in some cases/settings that common people (like an engineer or gol-guppe wala) might not use in day to day conversations...so could talabiidan be one of those words-perhaps used in formal documents/poetry...
> ...and even if it isn't, could it be used/"coined" if one doesn't want to use ________ karna _(needs a single word)...?



I don't think so but I will stand corrected if I am wrong.


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## Faylasoof

Alfaaz said:


> *
> Background:* Online Urdu Dictionary Word of the Day: طلبیدن
> 
> *Question:* How would this be used in a sentence? Is it a noun or a verb (the definition given is خواہش کرنا/_khaahish karnaa_ which makes it sounds like a verb...but it is listed as an _ism_)?
> 
> _*Attempts:
> *Kulfi par nazar paRte hi usne kulfi khane ki talbiidan (instead of khaahish ki)...
> Insaan ko khaab dekhne chaahiyeN aur talbiidan chahiye! Issi se to zindagi ka ihsaas hota hai! (instead of kaahish karnaa)
> 
> _The "shortage" of verbs in Urdu/Hindi and "abundance" of nouns/adjectives has been discussed previously and this query seems to be related to that...


 Just to add some more here. This is indeed like fareftan / fariiftan we discussed in that thread and my argument is the same here as it was there. To my knowledge, and like _fareftan_,  _Talbiidan_ was never part of the Urdu lexicon. Its inclusion here is odd but we can look up the older, "classical" Urdu lexicons just to be sure. I somehow doubt we'll find it used as such since the -an suffix is typical of the Persian infinitive, just as the -naa infnitive is for us. 

So for your above sentence we can have: _*q*ulfii par naZar paRte hii usne *q*ulfi khaane kii Talab kii / xaahish kii /xwaahish kii 

.... and I wouldn't say we have  a  "shortage  " of verbs. We use a lot of compound verbs just like in Modern Persian, where a lot of the earlier simple verbs have been set aside for the their compound forms. 
_


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## marrish

Alfaaz said:


> *Background:* Online Urdu Dictionary Word of the Day: طلبیدن
> 
> *Question:* How would this be used in a sentence? Is it a noun or a verb (the definition given is خواہش کرنا/_khaahish karnaa_ which makes it sounds like a verb...but it is listed as an _ism_)?
> 
> _*Attempts:
> *Kulfi par nazar paRte hi usne kulfi khane ki talbiidan (instead of khaahish ki)...
> Insaan ko khaab dekhne chaahiyeN aur talbiidan chahiye! Issi se to zindagi ka ihsaas hota hai! (instead of kaahish karnaa)
> 
> _The "shortage" of verbs in Urdu/Hindi and "abundance" of nouns/adjectives has been discussed previously and this query seems to be related to that...



Let me repeat what others have said: it is not Urdu, it has never been Urdu and I don't think it can ever become a part of this language. 

Let me repeat what Qureshpor SaaHib has said: do consult word-listing sites like the one you passionately do but keep in mind that the traditional dictionaries are qualitative. Ultimately, we are here to help you interpreting the right meanings and usage, but I think posting hundreds of words that are very remotely associated with a given meaning misses the point.

It is very good you posted this particular query because it gives a chance to look at the quality of this source. As you aptly pointed out, it is a verb but is listed as a noun, and of course, it is not Urdu!


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## marrish

Alfaaz said:


> ; Asked this question because often in _"high register"_ Urdu and especially poetry, Arabic and Persian words are included/used as in the original languages or _Urdu-ized_...(there was a discussion about this on PTV a while back, where modern/young poets participated: some prefer using very simple language while others enjoy employing words that might not be known to general public (or might not even be Urdu words) like awaail...)
> 
> So maybe طلبیدن could also be used in Urdu...


*avaa'il *is perfectly Urdu and I believe it is known to ''general public'' of course if they speak Urdu . 

رواں ماہ کے اوائل میں - in the first days of the current month.

طلبیدن on the contrary, can not be used in Urdu simply because Urdu doesn't borrow Persian infinitives, as far as I know. I think this verb is not used in Persian, though.


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## Alfaaz

Thanks for replying everyone!


> So for your above sentence we can have: _*q*ulfii par naZar paRte hii usne *q*ulfi khaane kii Talab kii / xaahish kii /xwaahish kii
> .... and I wouldn't say we have a "shortage " of verbs. We use a lot of compound verbs just like in Modern Persian, where a lot of the earlier simple verbs have been set aside for the their compound forms.
> _


So we have to use ______ kii, ________ karna, ________ kardi, etc. With the comment about "shortage" of verbs, *I was merely summarizing what was discussed in a couple of threads a long time ago:* that we have to say talaash karna, and not just talaashna, whereas English allows greater flexibility, and very few words are left such as bhagnaa (as QP pointed out above: Platts) etc. etc. (can't find the thread, but it was something comparing English and Urdu...);

Again, that was one of the reasons of asking the question. It was surprising to find such a word in the dictionary (which might be wrong, as it often has many mistakes), that would stand alone and not require noun+karnaa...



> Let me repeat what others have said: it is not Urdu, it has never been Urdu and I don't think it can ever become a part of this language.


Thanks! The point has set in now...


> Let me repeat what Qureshpor SaaHib has said: do consult word-listing sites_ *like the one you passionately do *but keep in mind that the traditional dictionaries are qualitative._ Ultimately, we are here to help you interpreting the right meanings and usage, but I think posting hundreds of words that are very remotely associated with a given meaning misses the point.


Sure I will try to keep consulting them for help whenever needed; *I am not the creator of the site, nor affiliated to it in any way-it is a generally useful online resource and reference for Urdu to Urdu, just as Oxford's or Webster's have become for English;* _certainly have that and will keep it in mind;_ I understand and appreciate this! I shall try to refrain from posting such questions in the future if they are pointless...




> It is very good you posted this particular query because it gives a chance to look at the quality of this source. As you aptly pointed out, it is a verb but is listed as a noun, and of course, it is not Urdu!



Thanks, as I have said above that the source has many mistakes, but is a good reference for now (comparing it to other online Urdu dictionaries, it seems to be more comprehensive, in addition to Platts and a few others of course...)



> *avaa'il *is perfectly Urdu and I believe it is known to ''general public'' of course if they speak Urdu .


Again, not denying that the word is Urdu...


> Certainly not denying that, just providing an example of how words might be used _in some cases/settings _that common people (like an engineer or gol-guppe wala) might not use in day to day conversations



اس سوال پوچھنے کا مقصد ہرگز کسی کی دل آزاری کرنا، اردو کی توہین و تبدیلی، یا پھر بےمعنی ، فضول گفتگو کرنا نہیں تھا! اگر یہ محسوس ہوا ہو، تو اسکے لئے معذرت خان ہیں! خدا اور اسکی مخلوق معاف فرماے اگر کوئی گناہ ہوگیا ہو
The purpose of posting this question was certainly not to hurt anyone's feelings, try to disrespect or transform Urdu, or _just to post a thread _with meaningless, futile discussion/debate. If any of the aforementioned have been felt, then am apologetic. May the Almighty and his creation grant forgiveness if any sin has been committed!

Please excuse any spelling/grammatical mistakes!


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## Qureshpor

Alfaaz said:


> اس سوال پوچھنے کا مقصد ہرگز کسی کی دل آزاری کرنا، اردو کی توہین و تبدیلی، یا پھر بےمعنی ، فضول گفتگو کرنا نہیں تھا! اگر یہ محسوس ہوا ہو، تو اسکے لئے معذرت خان ہیں! خدا اور اسکی مخلوق معاف فرماے اگر کوئی گناہ ہوگیا ہو
> The purpose of posting this question was certainly not to hurt anyone's feelings, try to disrespect or transform Urdu, or _just to post a thread _with meaningless, futile discussion/debate. If any of the aforementioned have been felt, then am apologetic. May the Almighty and his creation grant forgiveness if any sin has been committed!
> 
> Please excuse any spelling/grammatical mistakes!



Alfaaz SaaHib. Please keep firing your questions. No one has any problem with this. The dictionary that you have been quoting from is possibly one of the best and as you have indicated much more up to date. If it has one or two errors, that is no big deal. 

We are all learning from each other. It is a pleasure becoming acquainted with so many learned people on this forum.


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## marrish

QURESHPOR said:


> Alfaaz SaaHib. Please keep firing your questions. No one has any problem with this. The dictionary that you have been quoting from is possibly one of the best and as you have indicated much more up to date. If it has one or two errors, that is no big deal.
> 
> We are all learning from each other. It is a pleasure becoming acquainted with so many learned people on this forum.


I agree, we are learning from each other and it is a pleasure indeed to have such enlightening discussions here!


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## eskandar

marrish said:


> طلبیدن on the contrary, can not be used in Urdu simply because Urdu doesn't borrow Persian infinitives, as far as I know. I think this verb is not used in Persian, though.


Not so; طلبیدن is still frequently used in contemporary Iranian Persian, formally as well as colloquially.


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## Qureshpor

Alfaaz said:


> So we have to use ______ kii, ________ karna, ________ kardi, etc. With the comment about "shortage" of verbs, *I was merely summarizing what was discussed in a couple of threads a long time ago:* that we have to say talaash karna, and not just talaashna, whereas English allows greater flexibility, and very few words are left such as bhagnaa (as QP pointed out above: Platts) etc. etc. (can't find the thread, but it was something comparing English and Urdu...);



Here is a thread entitled "A Deluge of Verbs.." which may be of interest to you and others with reference to verbs in Urdu. 

http://groups.google.com/group/alt....e676280e7c?lnk=gst&q=southey#2d7610e676280e7c


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## Alfaaz

> Here is a thread entitled "A Deluge of Verbs.." which may be of interest to you and others with reference to verbs in Urdu.
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.l...7610e676280e7c



Thanks for the link!


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## Qureshpor

Whilst looking for izaafat usage by Ghalib in his diivaan, I came across several of his ash3aar where he has used Persian infinitives in their complete form. I might have missed more but I came across "chakiidan" (Tapaknaa) "shaniidan" (sun_naa), "shikastan" (TuuTnaa) and "shiguftan" (khilnaa)

dar-kaar hai *shiguftan-*i*-*gulhaa-i-3aish ko
subH-i-bahaar panbah-i-miinaa kaheN jise

So, what I and other friends have said with regard to "talabiidan" (maaNgnaa) might not be correct because it too may be found in some poet's works.


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