# Literature Forum



## hiddenflow

Hello everyone,

I have become a forum member recently although I've been using the site and forums for years. I've found many threads related to literature issues, old english words - like shakespearian's - and fragments of poems or novels asking for an explanation about the meaning of some verses or paragraf.
I may suggest that it would be nice and accurate to have an specific literature forum, where we could gather all the information together, since now a days the topics about this issue are scattered around all the WordReference forums.

Thanks for reading,
Waiting your suggestions.


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## Vanda

Probably people will tell you that "that's what the cultural issues are for",
but, as for me, I loved the idea! Sometimes, I lose a lot of time
trying to link all the scatterred literature references on the threads and, 
in the end, I give up. 
Let's wait for the others opinion!


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## alc112

I like the idea 
Maybe Mike (the Admin) can makke a subforum of cultural issues for Literature


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## VenusEnvy

I think one issue may be the _demand _for such forum. I'm not doubting that it's a good idea, but there'd have to be more than a couple of people who want it.

Just something to add to the discussion....


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## nikvin

well it would get my vote!!


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## Moogey

What a good idea. I was going to suggest it myself but here it is: already suggested.


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## lsp

hiddenflow said:
			
		

> ... and fragments of poems or novels asking for an explanation about the meaning of some verses or paragraph.


I just wonder if these threads are language questions that happened to originate in literature someone was reading, or questions of interpretation, symbolism, an individual's writing style, a crtitique or review of a literary work... if it's the former predominantly than a language forum serves the purpose. We get song lyric questions all the time, but we wouldn't create a music subforum, if that helps illustrate my question any better.


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## Alundra

I like this idea too... I am a compulsive reader  and I would be delighted. 

I think a literature forum might become a very constructive and interesting forum,  if (as long as) we know how to take care it.

Now, the mods (or Mr. Kellog) have the last word. 

Alundra.


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## hiddenflow

"I just wonder if these threads are language questions that happened to originate in literature someone was reading, or questions of interpretation, symbolism, an individual's writing style, a crtitique or review of a literary work... if it's the former predominantly than a language forum serves the purpose. We get song lyric questions all the time, but we wouldn't create a music subforum, if that helps illustrate my question any better."

--------------------------------------------------------------

English learners and readers usually find trouble when facing literature classics, sometimes because of the language itself (the texts are given in O.E. or M.E.) and mainly because of the use of figures of speech; such as metaphors, allegories, symbolism, and so on.
Taking into consideration that WordReference is intended to be a help for people learning languages, it should provide not only a vast amount of terms (I know the WR dictionary also displays idioms and the use of phrasals, an example in support of my thread), but a way to dive into the language itself; since languages develop as a changeable organism.
I mean learning and speaking a language does not consist on applying those tons of words we already know, but involves using style features, metaphors and idioms in a colloquial speech such as those we find in literature.

Here are given some examples of threads I've found dealing with literature:
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=67236&highlight=literature (theorizing on literary concepts)
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=56581&highlight=Alexander+Pope (asking about explanation of Pope's verses)
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=8060&highlight=Coleridge
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=9336&highlight=Tennyson (asking for the plot of a poem)
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=46703&highlight=Wilde (Literature Issues)
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=14726&highlight=Poe (Readings)

I've even seen a thread with the title: "Which is your favourite book", with many members taking part in the discussion.

For those reasons I think literature is made with language, and language needs literature to purify and give lustre to itself.

From my point of view the comparison you pointed out between a hypothetical Literature Forum and a Music/lyrics subforum should be kept beyond compare.


However, let's hear the user's opinion.
Best Regards.


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## lsp

hiddenflow said:
			
		

> <snip> For those reasons I think literature is made with language, and language needs literature to purify and give lustre to itself.
> 
> From my point of view the comparison you pointed out between a hypothetical Literature Forum and a Music/lyrics subforum should be kept beyond compare.
> 
> However, let's hear the user's opinion.
> Best Regards.


Maybe you mean "users'" (of which I am one, of course)? Regarding the contect, I am afraid I don't understand your point, specifically the last paragraph. It seems to argue in the same direction as mine (language = literature =lyrics = any and every topic under the sun). But that's OK, I don't want to debate, just to  contribute my opinion, and I have done it. I wouldn't even have posted except for the apostrophe I think you misplaced.


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## ampurdan

I am totally for! A literature forum would be a very interesting place to discuss some of the questions that are often posted in the general forums.


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## Sumertopp

I agree that a literature forum would be very useful, not in the sense of complicating the language forum, but to create a separate entity entirely.  Wordreference would be an excellent place to pose questions about literature written in a foreign language to native speakers.  I would be happy to reply to posts about Mark Twain, and am sure there are plenty of Spaniards who wouldn’t mind posting about Cervantes.  There are certain cultural and historical issues which are essential to understanding these sorts of texts, and although I know a good amount about the time period around the American Civil War, I know just about nothing about Spain around 1600.  Wordreference is ideal for this purpose since it hosts one of the few foreign language forums which actually generates quick, useful, and accurate replies from members throughout the world.  I am a third year college student studying Spanish and Latin American literature, and this sort of forum would be extremely helpful to me personally.


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## ampurdan

I haven't changed my point of view since my last post, but I'd like that if a literature forum was created, people should be free to post for language questions related to literature in the general forum and not just get sent to the literature one...


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## la reine victoria

I agree entirely with *ampurdan.  *(I enjoy reading French literature and often have problems with translations because the words are archaic.)


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## Moogey

I haven't changed my opinion either!

Just imagine how much one could learn by reading a story from another language that he or she is learning! I translated a small fable today from Italian to English and I was just amazed at the imagery I was getting as I translated a bunch of words I didn't know and put it all together. I learned phrases and usage! I learned new words! I also learned a good fable 

-M


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## el alabamiano

How many would discuss French literature in Chinese?  Chinese literature in Tagalog?  Italian literature in Cherokee? etc.

And supposing someone did create a thread written in the Thai language about Armenian literature. What percentage would ignore it all together, or who would come along and write, in English, "could you please translate your post to English so your discussion will draw a wider audience?"

In reality, it all boils down to just another English-dominated forum, as evidenced by this thread's English-only posts.


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## ampurdan

El Alabaminao, the forum would be a "Literature forum", non-specific from any language, and anyone should feel free to express in the language they chose. I don't see what is the problem about English being the dominant language...


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## Sumertopp

Yes, I imagine it would be an English dominated forum, since majority of Wordreference forums are dominated by English. This may be unfair to the people in the world attempting to translate from Quechua to Farsi, but for the _vast_ majority of us who need more common translations, it would be incredibly useful. If it became a huge problem, the good people of Bolivia and Iran could make a post in the "Comments and Suggestions" forum.


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## Etain

I agree with ampurdan and if a vote it's needed I will vote for the Literature Forum. Of course english will be predominant but, english is spoken everywhere in the world, we should start to admit it.


Maybe there could be a subforum like the specialized ones (law, medicine)and of course not as many sub forums as possible languages. I'd say an English one of course, but also spanish, french, italian and german. 

I've been at wordreference only few weeks but as fas as I can see I think those are the mainstream languages. Then we could have a subforum for all the other languages. 

I think it would be a great experience, I mean, I assume almost everybody here likes to read, and reading is literature. Moreover it could be very helpful for those translating literature (and that's not my case)


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## Moogey

It would be good to have a place to find literature of another language in the first place, first of all. I have difficulty finding literature (Italian literature specifically as that's what I'm learning). Nonetheless, it would offer translations for such literature-- after all, many people translating the same thing may have the same question which could act as a permanent answer to it, if you get what I mean.

Perhaps others could also share their vision of such a forum.

-M


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## ampurdan

I don't see why one only forum with threads of all languages (as that one of other languages currently in WR) will be a hindrance to your purposes Moogey. Finding an answer between 5000 threads of between 100000 is virtually difficult alike.


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## el alabamiano

Sumertopp said:
			
		

> Yes, I imagine it would be an English dominated forum, since majority of Wordreference forums are dominated by English. This may be unfair to the people in the world attempting to translate from Quechua to Farsi, but for the _vast_ majority of us who need more common translations, it would be incredibly useful. If it became a huge problem, the good people of Bolivia and Iran could make a post in the "Comments and Suggestions" forum.


Entiendo tu punto de vista. En cambio, todos mis esfuerzos se dirigen a aprender castellano, por lo tanto, prefiero que todo el mundo escriba en él; pero...ya hay bastante foros para todos, ¿no?


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## el alabamiano

ampurdan said:
			
		

> Bueno... El castellano no es un idioma precisamente infrarepresentado en WR. No creo que tuvieses problemas en encontrar abundante información y ayuda sobre literatura en lengua castellana en el eventual fórum de literatura.
> 
> ¡Un saludo!


Francamente, estoy totalmente a favor de la idea, pero hay que tratar de ver estas cosas con cierta perspectiva.


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## gian_eagle

Hello everyone!

I was glad that VenusEnvy told me there was already a thread about literature forum.
I was previously talking to JazzByChas about how the liberty of _Foreros_ of asking for the creation of new sub-forums could be managed... 

I tottally agree there should be a *literary/poetry work section *(like creative writing o little creations), as,with permission of Agnès, I liked how she (Agnès) was writing short and nice poems on the Congrats Section, and I bet there are very creative people like her in WR. I, myself, would like to express here in other ways, like writing short stories to be read or corrected.

And, due to the fact that there is a Cultural Discussion section, I think It shouldn't be a problem to have a literary/poetry work (by _foreros_) on WR as well.

Mr. and Ms. Moderators, do you think the creation of these kind of sub-forums might be possible?

Thank you in advance for your concern.


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## Jana337

gian_eagle said:
			
		

> I, myself, would like to express here in other ways, like writing short stories to be read or corrected.
> 
> Mr. and Ms. Moderators, do you think the creation of these kind of sub-forums might be possible?


I have seen quite a few poems or stories written by our forer@s. They posted them in one of our current forums to have them corrected. Why exactly isn't such an option sufficient?

Jana


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## gian_eagle

Jana337 said:
			
		

> I have seen quite a few poems or stories written by our forer@s. They posted them in one of our current forums to have them corrected. Why exactly isn't such an option sufficient?
> Jana


 
That could be an option and I respect it, but, in my opinion, there should be a more specified topic about both Literature and Literary/poetry creations.


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## JazzByChas

First, I would like to go on record as saying that, I think this idea is an excellent one. Poetry and literature express our languages and its meanings/nuances very well. In fact, litterature is that vehicle by which those of us who are most influenced by the "muses" express a language.

To answer your question Jana, I believe that Gian_Eagle and the others are expressing a desire to have an outlet for writing and discussing poetry/litterature. They are not debating the meanings of words or phrases only. Besides, there may be a lot of budding poets or writers out there, and they may debut here in WR!  

Just my $.02 (USD)



			
				Jana337 said:
			
		

> _I have seen quite a few poems or stories written by our forer@s. They posted them in one of our current forums to have them corrected. Why exactly isn't such an option sufficient?_
> _Jana_


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## Maria Juanita

Well, I'd really LOVE the idea of having a sub-forum related to litterature issues. (I'd also love the idea of having another one related to movies, and another one about music, and another one about social issues and so on, because I honestly think all of those subjects are part of what we can call "culture", but I know that be asking for too much). But as I know most of us foreros love books, I think it will be really nice. Sometimes, when I want to read opinions about some litterature I have to go through the search process and I'd be really good to have all threads about writers and readings in just one place, it'd be like an oasis!!! 

I know there are another websites that offer only litterature issues to talk about, but why can't this wonderful wordreference forum have it???


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## gian_eagle

Maria Juanita said:
			
		

> Well, I'd really LOVE the idea of having a sub-forum related to litterature issues. (I'd also love the idea of having another one related to movies, and another one about music, and another one about social issues and so on, because I honestly think all of those subjects are part of what we can call "culture", but I know that be asking for too much). But as I know most of us foreros love books, I think it will be really nice. Sometimes, when I want to read opinions about some litterature I have to go through the search process and I'd be really good to have all threads about writers and readings in just one place, it'd be like an oasis!!!
> 
> I know there are another websites that offer only litterature issues to talk about, but why can't this wonderful wordreference forum have it???


 
Hello, Maria Juanita!

I agree with having art or artistic-related forums like literature/literary creations and music, but, concerning to social issues, I think that is included already in the "cultural discussions" section. 

By the way, I liked that frease... to be on an oasis... on the dessert of the translation world


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## Sparrow22

it would be fantastic to have a sub-forum like that, as Juanita said and Gian Eagle too, (Juanita, I love books and moreover movies, I could spend a whole weekend watching movies or reading).
I don't think the sub-forum would lead to chatting, it would just be an exchange of ideas and opinions, keeping the esence of the other forums, don't you think ???


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## lauranazario

I am often puzzled when I see requests to "transform" WR to accommodate special interests that are well served elsewhere. 
Why must we ask WR to lose its uniqueness as a serious language learning oriented forum??? That's our undeniable _specialty_, our NICHE... and what sets us _apart_ from the rest!

Anybody who has a real need for or interest in a literature forum can choose and pick from the myriad alternatives out there.

It's been said before but I think it bears repeating... WR cannot be all things to all people.

Two chocolate coins.


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## gian_eagle

That's a shame, Laura.

I think having sub-forums related to arts will enrich WordReference, instead of reducing its worthiness and uniqueness.


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## JazzByChas

I'm going to have to agree, here...language is a living entity, and is enriched by how we express it.  In order to more accurately define how you would use a word, there has to be precedence, and great writers do just that. Discussion of and creation of great writings, could only add more to our understanding of language and its meaning!



			
				gian_eagle said:
			
		

> That's a shame, Laura.
> 
> I think having sub-forums related to arts will enrich WordReference, instead of reducing its worthiness and uniqueness.


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## gian_eagle

JazzByChas said:
			
		

> I'm going to have to agree, here...language is a living entity, and is enriched by how we express it. In order to more accurately define how you would use a word, there has to be precedence, and great writers do just that. Discussion of and creation of great writings, could only add more to our understanding of language and its meaning!


 
That's for sure. Why, when we talk about US legislation, there's a need to refer to previous cases?? It's because of the need of precedents.

That's the same for literature and language. In order to understand some idiomatic expressions, or thoughts, we should have a section to discuss about literature, novelists.

Perhaps not to have literary works made by foreros, but to talk specifically about Authors, quotes and thoughts; not only small pieces of words sticked to the rule to make a translation.


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## Moogey

lauranazario said:
			
		

> I am often puzzled when I see requests to "transform" WR to accommodate special interests that are well served elsewhere.
> Why must we ask WR to lose its uniqueness as a serious language learning oriented forum??? That's our undeniable _specialty_, our NICHE... and what sets us _apart_ from the rest!
> 
> Anybody who has a real need for or interest in a literature forum can choose and pick from the myriad alternatives out there.
> 
> It's been said before but I think it bears repeating... WR cannot be all things to all people.
> 
> Two chocolate coins.


 
I don't think you get it lauranazario! We want this forum to help us learn the languages! You say language learning and that's really the only reason we want the forum, to learn languages! (Although I can only speak for myself)

-M


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## Maria Juanita

esta vez voy a hablar en español, porque así me expreso mejor.

Laura:
Yo considero que nos malentendiste en el sentido de que en ningun momento queremos "acomodar" las exigencias del foro para intereses personales. A lo que me refería cuando dije que me parecía fantástica la idea de un foro especializado en literatura era que no hay nada que refleje más un idioma que sus letras y la mejor manera de aprenderlo es leyendo, así que como la mayoría de los foreros son personas ávidas de este tipo de temas, sería chévere tener una categoría dedicada a esto. Lo de la música y las películas lo dije también pero no lo coloqué como una sugerencia pues soy consciente de que, a pesar de ser cultura, añadirlos no iría con los propósitos del foro. Pero insisto -y muy respetuosamente- que a mi parecer, un foro de literatura no tendría nada de malo. 

Esperando tu y los otros moderadores reconsideren esta petición,

Maria Juanita


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## Moogey

I'd also like to add that this could also be a forum for song lyric translations. Learning to translate songs right, I've learned, is an _extremely_ good aid to learning a foreign language.

-M


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## ampurdan

What about making the forum inclusive of all the arts which use words: literature, song lyrics and cinema, all in one forum. Cinema and literature are closely related, after all.

I don't understand why having a separated forum about literature and cinema has to reduce WR value as a translation forum. I would sincerely appreciate someone explaining to me how this could happen.

Un saludo!


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## Isotta

lauranazario said:
			
		

> I am often puzzled when I see requests to "transform" WR to accommodate special interests that are well served elsewhere.
> Why must we ask WR to lose its uniqueness as a serious language learning oriented forum??? That's our undeniable _specialty_, our NICHE... and what sets us _apart_ from the rest!
> 
> Anybody who has a real need for or interest in a literature forum can choose and pick from the myriad alternatives out there.
> 
> It's been said before but I think it bears repeating... WR cannot be all things to all people.
> 
> Two chocolate coins.



Your argument is good for a travel forum, for example--subjects that people in the forum might be interested in but that bear no correlation with forum essence.

I fail to see the gap between language and literature. I often see literary references here, and I sense that a great many among us at least dally in reading.

I am not so inclined to support a literary forum in terms of showing writing samples of forer@s. Perhaps this is from witnessing a couple less-than-impressive open-mic nights back in the U.S.

I am interested in discussing books in a less language-specific manner. My only concern is a potential lack of focus. Does anyone have ideas on this?

Z.


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## JazzByChas

To the point that this forum is not intended for “Special Interests” that are well served elsewhere, and that this forum is merely intended as a “language learning” forum, I must take issue.

As Maria Juanita referred to in her post, Language is not merely about words and their definition. Language is an expression of the thoughts, ideas, and experiences of human beings, in whatever language that it is manifested.

From the time we are born, we go through a gradual process of learning sounds, words, and sentences. These gradually become the building blocks for conversations. A language is not merely the words that comprise it, but the ideas expressed therein. These ideas come from all aspects of life, including Arts, Sciences, Politics, Business, and History. The way a culture develops words is in their expression. And, since languages are living entities, they are always adapting and changing to reflect the culture that employs them.

www.wordreference.com, hereinafter referred to as the Dictionary, and http://forum.Wordreference.com, hereinafter referred to as the Forum, serve two different purposes. The dictionary represents words and phrases, and how they appear in different languages. The Forum is the “incubator” of new ideas and interpretations of words, phrases, and ideas. Not only is the meaning of a word discussed, or its translation into another language, but it application in our culture, using the culture itself as a reference. 

It is not merely by coincidence that the number of forums has increased over the last year and a half the Forum has been in existence. This is not by accident, but is to be expected, as the discussion of language must represent all the ideas it represents. As well as just a forum for the translation of one language to another, forums have developed that are more specialized in nature; the “Language Only” forum, where discussion can go on in only one language. These forums have also diversified into “Themed Lists,” “Specialized Terminology,” “Resources,” and “Congrats Pages.” The point: the forums celebrate *life*, and not just merely words. Which is the primary reason the “Cultural _Discussions_” forum developed: to discuss cultural issues. Well, there are a multitude of cultural themes that could be discussed, and just as the other forums have diversified to enable more specific aspects of that forum to be discussed in sub-forums, I believe that sub-forums of Cultural Discussion will develop, e.g. a “Literature” sub-forum.

If all you want is just to learn the meaning of a word in English, or another language, then refer to the dictionary. But if you want to see how and why a word is used, then discuss it in the forums. Quite often, this is how new concepts expressed by a word or phrase, and uses of a word or words comes about! Discussions, whether formal or informal, need to take place in order for new ideas to come about. The Forum is a place for formal discussions. But there also needs to be a means by which informal discussion, or “Chat” can come about, as this is also an exchange of ideas. I discuss this in the “Announcements” forum suggestion, and the original.

I imagine that the only practical implication of more specialized sub-forums is the need for more moderators. But, what a nice problem to have!


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## cuchuflete

Please read this:

http://forum.wordreference.com/showpost.php?p=540028&postcount=25


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## cuchuflete

Jazz by Chas said:
			
		

> But there also needs to be a means by which informal discussion, or “Chat” can come about, as this is also an exchange of ideas.



There is some serious confusion here between two verbs:  to want, and to need.


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## Gremli Skremli

If someone knows about a good literature forum somewhere on the www, please let me know. As an at home master student of Latin American literature (not English) I'd love to discuss the subject with someone.


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## hiddenflow

A los moderadores y usuarios de WR:

La idea que propuse inicialmente fue crear un foro de literatura donde pudieran incluirse todos los asuntos que este género implica. Ni yo ni los demás usuarios que están a favor del proyecto estamos pidiendo poner una foto de Shakespare en la página de inicio. Simplemente, ustedes los administradores deberían saber mejor que nadie que el lenguaje no funciona a la manera del 2+2 y que la pragmática impide sustituir una palabra por otra cuando se traduce de una lengua A a otra B. Puesto que todo lo escrito se apoya en el lenguaje, y el lenguaje ha de ser estudiado en todas sus vertientes, no es lícito obviar esta faceta del mismo. 
Numerosas preguntas acerca de escritos y textos literarios han tenido lugar y los usuarios tienen que apañarselas para insertarla en el foro que mejor convenga. Básicamente, se pide una organización más cohesionada, y si existen foros para temas como asuntos culturales, no veo por qué nuestra petición les parece tan descabellada.

Muchas gracias.


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## hiddenflow

To the Admin.

I have read your opinion and I respect it despite being quite disappointing. As I've already explained in the last post, WR is a great source for vocabulary and grammar, I dare say one of the most complete websites on the net related to this issue. But denying our petition means forgeting and dismissing a vital side of language; suggestion that I thought, in my naivety, you wouldn't put aside; since all moderators should be first of all language-lovers as a pattern to follow. However, as you've exposed it looks like language is but a business to make profits with, so I won't expect my proposal to be considered.


Thanks to all users who had supported the request, but this is not a democracy, although users are the ones who WR exists for.


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## Alunarada

that's a great idea!!! I totally agree  Let's go for it !


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## cuchuflete

To all those who persist in clamoring for such a forum,

You may not have seen this, despite the link posted above, in this thread.  Hence, here it is, yet again:



> Hi Chaz and everybody,
> 
> I understand the desire to have more forums covering other needs of the community here. Announcements, literature, poetry, pen pals, even off-topic chat. These are all areas that many people would enjoy having here, and many of them are good ideas in general.
> 
> I'm Sorry, but I have no plans to open any of these forums anytime soon. First, there isn't sufficient moderator manpower nor willingness to moderate such forums. Second, these forums are growing at at amazing rate (+50% more posts compared to September). We want to concentrate on doing general language forums and continue doing it well without distraction by other ideas. Third, some of the suggested forums (like literature) are outside of the WR Forums' core purpose, which is basically vocabulary, grammar and other linguistic issues.
> 
> I also want to add one more note. I have seen quite a few references to democracy in the forums here. I just want to politely remind everyone that WordReference is a business, not a democracy. Like any good business it listens carefully to suggestions, of course.
> 
> And thanks for the suggestions,
> Mike


This was written by the person who created these forums, and maintains them for all of us.   Courtesy would suggest that people read his words, carefully, and stop repeating the same request that has been addressed previously.


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## cuchuflete

As of 7 March 2006, there are nearly 43 000 registered members of these forums, and of these, approximately 7 200 have been active within the past month. A dozen, or maybe thirteen--feel free to do your own count-- foreros have requested a facility for literary discussion. Some of those requesting such a forum have not been active in the current forum. 

This clearly is not a topic of importance to a huge majority of the active WR community. For those for whom literary discussion is important, there are a great many fine literature forums on the web.


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