# кое



## patricksecrets

Hi there. I was wondering what the sense of the word 'кое' is in phrases like кое-какой, кое-кто, кое-что and кое-где. 

How is кое different from, for example, где-то or где-нибудь, and the equivalents for the other examples above. 

thanks a lot


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## morzh

"кое" - by itself means "которое", "which, that".
"кое-кто" means "someone, a certain someone".
"кое-какой" - "some".
"кое-что" - "something"
"кое-где" - "some places, certain places".

Whereas "где-нибудь" may mean "no matter where" or "in some places".

It depends.

Example:

"Где-нибудь это любят; у нас - нет" - "maybe somewhere (in certain places) it is liked; not here".
"кое-где это любят; у нас - нет" - exactly the same.

But:

"Кое-где кое-кто кое-что мне сообщил" - "In a certain place, a certain someone told me certain something" (a phrase used to signify:"I do know something about it").


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## patricksecrets

thanks, that's great. But what is the difference between 'кое-...' and '...-то'?
Do they both mean 'a certain...'?


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## rusita preciosa

patricksecrets said:


> thanks, that's great. But what is the difference between 'кое-...' and '...-то'?
> Do they both mean 'a certain...'?


I'd say, as a rule of thumb, use "a certain" where кое- is involved, e.g. 
кое-кто - a certain someone (the speaker is likely to know who it is, but is not telling)
кто-то - someone (a speaker is likely not to know who)

But, as usual, much depends on the context.


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## patricksecrets

> "Кое-где кое-кто кое-что мне сообщил" - "In a certain place, a certain  someone told me certain something" (a phrase used to signify:"I do know  something about it").





> кое-кто - a certain someone (the speaker is likely to know who it is, but is not telling)



I'm getting the feeling that the word кое is mainly used in jokey situations, as if with a wink, perhaps. Would I be right?


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## Natalisha

patricksecrets said:


> I'm getting the feeling that the word кое is mainly used in jokey situations, as if with a wink, perhaps. Would I be right?


It can be used in jokey situations, too.

I agree with Rusita


rusita preciosa said:


> кое-кто - a certain someone (the speaker is likely to know who it is, but is not telling)


maybe because the speaker doesn't want to tell us the name of the implied person.


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## morzh

Sometimes this "кое-кто" is used when the speaker want to say "both you and I know who it is, but I won't name names".
Sometimes it is even done in the  presence of the person in question.

"Кое-кто (a wink and a nod toward the implied person) сказал мне, что он не ест мяса!" (the person in question is devouring a steak at the moment). - "A certain someone told me he eats no meat!"


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## patricksecrets

Thanks a bunch - it all makes sense now.



morzh said:


> он не ест мяса!



Just out of interest, why is мяса plural here? It's just that I can only remember having seen мясо, and I assumed the word was like its english equivalent (it would sound ever so slightly slightly odd to say 'I don't eat meats', though it does make perfect sense). On the other hand, I have generally only seen котлет*ы* as opposed to котлет*а*. Does мяса suggest that he doesn't eat 'all variety of meats', whereas мясо might suggest meat as a category of food?

Sorry, I'm sure I'm looking too far into this, but I would quite like to understand the subtleties of Russian.


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## morzh

patricksecrets said:


> Thanks a bunch - it all makes sense now.
> 
> 
> 
> Just out of interest, why is мяса plural here? It's just that I can only remember having seen мясо, and I assumed the word was like its english equivalent (it would sound ever so slightly slightly odd to say 'I don't eat meats', though it does make perfect sense). On the other hand, I have generally only seen котлет*ы* as opposed to котлет*а*. Does мяса suggest that he doesn't eat 'all variety of meats', whereas мясо might suggest meat as a category of food?
> 
> Sorry, I'm sure I'm looking too far into this, but I would quite like to understand the subtleties of Russian.



It is not plural. It is singular genitive.
Мясо-мяса-мясу-мясо--мясом-мясе

PS. It was discussed in other threads - where with positive action only accusative is used, with negative often both accusative and genitive are allowed.

Я пью чай - я не пью чай/чая.
Я ем мясо - я не ем мясо / мяса.

Matter of preference.


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## patricksecrets

morzh said:


> It is not plural. It is singular genitive.
> Мясо-мяса-мясу-мясо--мясом-мясе



Why is that then? I assume it's not suggesting the meat is animate?


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## morzh

No. I don't even think it depends on animate/inanimate. Though accusative for those looks different.
It's just so; might as well accept it. I am sure there are linguo-historical reasons for this. If you want - you can read up on it, or look up the earlier discussions - I am sure it was touched in there, or someone else may elaborate.

But as animate / inanimate goes:

Я сделал домашнее задание - я не сделал домашнее задание / домашнего задания. (inanim.)
Я побил вашего Пашку - я не трогал вашего Пашку / вашего Пашки. (animate, a name)

Somehow I think that with animate it is more of a spoken form, when the genitive is used, whereas with inanimate both are equal.
But I am not sure. As this is often used in direct speech, either one may be found in literature, as it will reflect the spoken style of a person depicted.

"Не видел я вашу лошадь - не видал я вашей лошади".


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## patricksecrets

OK then. I suppose it does make sense in English too, to say 'he doesn't eat of meat' - a vague idiom a suppose.


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## morzh

Well, "to eat of " I believe is a bit obsolete, but one might still see that in ,say "little miss Moffett" who ate "*of* curds and wey".


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## morzh

I remember this phrase about Tesla from my childhood, and I thought I  could find this book by Ludwig Souchek and just found it - I remembered  right 
So here it is:

"_Тесла_ так и _не_ женился, у него _не_ было своего дома, жил он в отелях. Он *не ел мяса,* *не пил чая*, кофе, *алкоголя*, _не_ курил и верил, что доживет хотя бы до 140 лет."


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## patricksecrets

> "to eat of " I believe is a bit obsolete



Yes, you are exactly right, which is why I wasn't convinced at first. But, on the other hand, just so I'm sure, you are saying that that is the gist of the meaning in Russian?


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## patricksecrets

patricksecrets said:


> But, on the other hand, just so I'm sure, you are saying that that is the gist of the meaning in Russian?



And the genitive with Tesla's alcohol would seem to back that up.


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## morzh

Not really.

What you are trying to describe, "to eat of something", I think, is Russian "partitivus", "partitive case", a subcase of genitive. Also called "разделительный падеж" (dividing case).

It is used when it is implied the part of the whole is used.

Like "Налил чаю" vs. "налил чай". 

If it is used, then even with positive action (not only with negative) it may take form of Genitive:

Он поел борща, потом мяса. - Он поел борщ, потом мясо.

As you may see, both are positive actions, but first may be translated as "he ate of soup, then of meat" - the second, "he ate soup, then meat".

Either one can be used, and it is a matter of style, but the partitive will give a feeling that there was more and he ate part of it.


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## morzh

With Tesla's alcohol it is not so. There, as well as with "мясо/чай", it only says he did not eat meat and did not drink tea/alcohol.

Say, Tesla came to visit someone and ate meat and drank alcohol.
Then it'd be "он ел мясо и пил алкоголь".
If he did not - "он не ел мясо/мяса и не пил алкоголь/алкоголя".

But, if it is "he ate some meat and drank some alcohol" then "он выпил алкоголя и поел мяса".

Notice (important) - it is only used here with perfect forms of action.

You cannot say "Он пил алкоголя и ел мяса".


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## patricksecrets

morzh said:


> "he ate of soup, then of meat"



In English, 'eating of' seems to me to have a slight Biblical or religious-ritual ring to it. For example, when talking about Christian Mass/Communion, you might hear 'to eat of the body of Christ/drink of the blood of Christ'. As you said, this again has overtones of eating a part of the whole, but I feel you would only hear it in such a situation.

Is there any such cultural/situational connection in Russian, or are Tesla's genitives unweighted in normal Russian?


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## morzh

As for religious: Little miss Moffett was not at a mass and did not receive Eucharist - she ate of curds and whey, and then there came a large spider, who sat right beside her, and he was no priest either, as you probably remember 
So it is not necessarily religious.
It is a bit outdated, and we tend to read outdated language in religious texts, and this why you might've said so.

As for the Tesla's genitives  (sounds weird, ain't it?) - yes it is quite common.

That is, to summarize:

1. Positive vs. negative action:

Он *ел мясо*  /  он *не ел мясо/мяса* (he *ate meat* / he *ate no  meat*(he *did not eat meat*)).

Note: No genitive is used with positive action when the action is not complete (non-perfect).
Note: Usage is interchangeable and both forms are used at will.

2. Partitive case.
Он съел мясо / он съел мяса.
Он выпил водку / он выпил водки.

Here Genitive Partitive is used to denote "part vs. whole".

Note: Partitive (which looks here (it may look otherwise) like Genitive) may be used with both positive and negative action.
Note: Usage is also at the discretion of the speaker and does not change the sense of what's been said, being most often a matter of a spoken style, but will nevertheless deliver a notion of "partial consumption".


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## patricksecrets

I have also just realised that (at the very least) with мясо/мяса you are unlikely to hear the difference in spoken Russian anyway, because of the lack of stress on the last syllable.

Didn't I say right at the beginning I was probably looking too far into it?


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## morzh

In a way - yes.
But.
Some nouns have clear distinction between them when pronounced.

Он насыпал песок/песку в стакан.
Он налил чай/чаю в стакан.
Он намазал икру/икры на хлеб.

As you can see, the partitive, as well as genitive forms may be different, and then you will see and hear the distinction, and will think "why, oh why!".

But yes - it is too advanced; most Russians actually have no idea about all this, let alone about the existence of more than 6 cases, so if you are not yet at a level where you are fully fluent - this presents purely theoretical interest for you.

Then again, extra knowledge does not hurt, as long as you have enough gigabytes left up there, en la cabeza  .


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## patricksecrets

> Some nouns have clear distinction between them when pronounced.


 I know, obviously - I just meant it doesn't really matter much with the original example after all.



morzh said:


> if you are not yet at a level where you are fully fluent - this presents purely theoretical interest for you.
> 
> Then again, extra knowledge does not hurt, as long as you have enough gigabytes left up there, en la cabeza  .



Of course, you're right. Thanks for all your patience with us learners


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## Memphis9489

patricksecrets said:


> Hi there. I was wondering what the sense of the word 'кое' is in phrases like кое-какой, кое-кто, кое-что and кое-где.
> 
> How is кое different from, for example, где-то or где-нибудь, and the equivalents for the other examples above.
> 
> thanks a lot




*Я должен купить что-то.*

"I have to buy _something_." 

"I don't know what I need to buy, but I just can't walk out of this store without buying something. Perhaps I'm a compulsive shopper. Let me look around a little more, I'm sure I'll find something to buy."

It's unclear what they're going to buy.

*Я должен купить кое-что.*

"I have to buy something." 

"You wait right here. There is something I need to buy in this store. I can't tell you what it is."

Maybe it's a gift for somebody and it needs to remain a secret. There is obviously something very specific this person is talking about - but they don't want to reveal it. They don't mean _anything_, or some undetermined _something_, they're talking about something they already have in mind.

*Что-то* and *кое-что* both translate to "something". *Что-то* has a indefinite connotation whereas the *кое-что* is more definite. In English, this can only be conveyed via context and intonation.

For example, in my first example, in English, emphasis would probably be placed on the word "something" to indicate it's indefinite nature. In the second example, it's unlikely that the word "something" would be emphasized. Russians simply have two _different _words to convey this nuance.


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## morzh

Memphis9489 said:


> *Я должен купить что-то.*
> 
> "I have to buy _something_."
> 
> "I don't know what I need to buy, but I just can't walk out of this store without buying something. Perhaps I'm a compulsive shopper. Let me look around a little more, I'm sure I'll find something to buy."
> 
> It's unclear what they're going to buy.
> 
> *Я должен купить кое-что.*
> 
> "I have to buy something."
> 
> "You wait right here. There is something I need to buy in this store. I can't tell you what it is."
> 
> Maybe it's a gift for somebody and it needs to remain a secret. There is obviously something very specific this person is talking about - but they don't want to reveal it. They don't mean _anything_, or some undetermined _something_, they're talking about something they already have in mind.
> 
> *Что-то* and *кое-что* both translate to "something". *Что-то* has a indefinite connotation whereas the *кое-что* is more definite. In English, this can only be conveyed via context and intonation.
> 
> For example, in my first example, in English, emphasis would probably be placed on the word "something" to indicate it's indefinite nature. In the second example, it's unlikely that the word "something" would be emphasized. Russians simply have two _different _words to convey this nuance.



Actually, in the case with "купить" the two are almost exactly the same.

In case of "wait here, I need to buy something", either "Мне нужно кое-что купить" and "Мне нужно что-то купить" do not have any difference whatsoever.

However if I say, without any pretext, "Мне нужно кое-что купить", it then mean that I know what I need to buy.
If I said the same using "что-то", "Мне нужно что-то купить", it may mean that I do not know what I want and I just want to buy something, just because I feel like buying something.


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## Sobakus

morzh said:


> In case of "wait here, I need to buy something", either "Мне нужно кое-что купить" and "Мне нужно что-то купить" do not have any difference whatsoever.



I can't agree, regardless of the context I feel the difference that *Memphis9489* has brilliantly explained. Sometimes что-то may mean кое-что (Иди сюда, я тебе что-то покажу), but to me it's very colloquial or simply an incorrect use of the language. And it's never vice-versa.


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## Natalisha

Memphis9489 said:


> *Я должен купить что-то.*
> 
> "I have to buy _something_."
> 
> "I don't know what I need to buy, but I just can't walk out of this store without buying something. Perhaps I'm a compulsive shopper. Let me look around a little more, I'm sure I'll find something to buy."


In this case I'd rather use 'что-нибудь'.

_Я обязтельно должна/должен что-нибудь купить._


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## eni8ma

It is my understanding that the affixes give a different general sense, and I found it useful to consider them in pairs:
1.
*кое-~ *and* ~-то* "some~"
кое-~ : when you know what/who, etc but are not stating (someone rang for you)
~-то : when you do _not_ know exactly what/who, etc (someone's at the door)

2.
*~-нибудь* and *~-либо*
~-нибудь : "some~, any~" (did anyone call?) 
~-либо : "some~ or other" (I left it somewhere or other)
In questions, it seems both can used in the sense of "any~ at all?"

This is by no means an exhaustive list, just a very elementary overview.
~ represents whichever word you are using (either in Russian or English), кто, что, где, etc. There are a fair few words that can be used with these affixes, although not all variations are usable words. Also, for some (когда and как in particular), the meaning changes more than the general statements above.

These usages could take a whole chapter of a grammar book on their own, I think. It took me ages to track down the list of different words that can take one ending or another, and what they mean, at least enough to get a beginner's handle on them. I could easily be corrected on anything I have put here.


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## Orlin

Natalisha said:


> In this case I'd rather use 'что-нибудь'.
> 
> _Я обязательно должна/должен что-нибудь купить._


Очепятка.


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