# Urdu: عظمیٰ



## teaboy

Is the name عظمیٰ (Uzma) written using the little _alif_ over the _ye_, or has that been abandoned in favour of the modern Persian orthography of a simple _alif_? ( عظما )


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## Qureshpor

teaboy said:


> Is the name عظمیٰ (Uzma) written using the little _alif_ over the _ye_, or has that been abandoned in favour of the modern Persian orthography of a simple _alif_? ( عظما )



In Urdu, as far as I am aware, with one exception all such words are written with the alif above the ye (alif-i-maqsuuraa). Common examples of these words are kubraa, suGhraa, lailaa, adnaa etc. dunyaa is the exception because of two ye's coming together.


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## teaboy

Thanks, QP!


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## marrish

QURESHPOR said:


> In Urdu, as far as I am aware, with one exception all such words are written with the alif above the ye (alif-i-maqsuuraa). Common examples of these words are kubraa, suGhraa, lailaa, adnaa etc. dunyaa is the exception because of two ye's coming together.


In addition to this very knowledgeable contribution I can add that this 'little alif' is frequently omitted, especially in careless writing.


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## UrduMedium

marrish said:


> In addition to this very knowledgeable contribution I can add that this 'little alif' is frequently omitted, especially in careless writing.



_*Side note-*_ As I recall, that omission would be consistent with Arabic way of spelling, where a chhotii ye (in ending form) without the two dots is always pronounced as alif (or aa). No chhota alif marker needed there. In order to make it into an 'ii' sound you put two dots below the ye. For example موسى is muusaa and  موسي is muusii.


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## BP.

^Which is a consistent source of annoyance when you try to read aloud an Arabic text, with your training in reading Urdu.

Here in the maghrib the text throws another googly at you: the Q is written with one dot i.e. as an F from our perspective! PS: the F has an additional dot underneath.


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## marrish

BelligerentPacifist said:


> ^Which is a consistent source of annoyance when you try to read aloud an Arabic text, with your training in reading Urdu.
> 
> Here in the maghrib the text throws another googly at you: the Q is written with one dot i.e. as an F from our perspective! PS: the F has an additional dot underneath.


I had the impression you were talking of thrice dotted F in order to represent 'v'.


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## UrduMedium

marrish said:


> I had the impression you were talking of thrice dotted F in order to represent 'v'.



I wish we had the three-dotted fe for V sound in Urdu. Then we would be able to read advoket rather aduuket (for English advocate)


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## marrish

It is a valid remark. My satisfaction would be complete if we could read _vakiil_ and write _vakiil_!


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## rayloom

BelligerentPacifist said:


> ^Which is a consistent source of annoyance when you try to read aloud an Arabic text, with your training in reading Urdu.
> 
> Here in the maghrib the text throws another googly at you: the Q is written with one dot i.e. as an F from our perspective! PS: the F has an additional dot underneath.



Hello,
I was intrigued by your comment.
Maghrib =  Morocco?
I didn't know they had such a peculiar way of writing the faa and qaf!


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## BP.

Yes Maghrib is Morocco and they have the rasm ull khat maghribi which has unique features. You could go to some Parisian masaajid and read a musHaf of the Qur'aan in the maghribi script.


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## Qureshpor

mbasit said:


> _*Side note-*_ As I recall, that omission would be consistent with Arabic way of spelling, where a chhotii ye (in ending form) without the two dots is always pronounced as alif (or aa). No chhota alif marker needed there. In order to make it into an 'ii' sound you put two dots below the ye. For example موسى is muusaa and  موسي is muusii.




You and marrish SaaHib may be interested in this.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt....b19f6bb54ef?lnk=gst&q=lailii#d04d7b19f6bb54ef


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## marrish

QURESHPOR said:


> You and marrish SaaHib may be interested in this.


I'm grateful for this. It is very well researched and highly informative.


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## UrduMedium

QURESHPOR said:


> You and marrish SaaHib may be interested in this.
> 
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt....b19f6bb54ef?lnk=gst&q=lailii#d04d7b19f6bb54ef



Thanks Qureshpor saahib. Delightful! I had heard about 'imaalah' but was not clear about it. Very helpful.


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## Qureshpor

mbasit said:


> Thanks Qureshpor saahib. Delightful! I had heard about 'imaalah' but was not clear about it. Very helpful.



You are welcome. And we know that "ma3ne" is really the plural form of "ma3naa" the original word, which is often pronounced as "ma3nii".


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## UrduMedium

QURESHPOR said:


> You are welcome. And we know that "ma3ne" is really the plural form of "ma3naa" the original word, which is often pronounced as "ma3nii".



I thought that was more like _*ma3aanii*_? ma3ne is just alternate pronunciation for ma3naa from my experience.


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## rayloom

BelligerentPacifist said:


> Yes Maghrib is Morocco and they have the rasm ull khat maghribi which has unique features. You could go to some Parisian masaajid and read a musHaf of the Qur'aan in the maghribi script.



I've only read about the western (Maghrebi/Andalusian) khat tradition, never thought it still lives on. But it's probably limited to just Maghrebi musHafs. But it's worth checking out.
Thank you


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## Qureshpor

mbasit said:


> I thought that was more like _*ma3aanii*_? ma3ne is just alternate pronunciation for ma3naa from my experience.



You are right. But I was thinking about the sense "is ke *ma3ne* kyaa *haiN?*


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## marrish

QURESHPOR said:


> You are right. But I was thinking about the sense "is ke *ma3ne* kyaa *haiN?*


You are right, this noun is treated as a plural noun.


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