# Applying Polish grammar to English words.



## ><FISH'>

What does everyone think of how people (especially younger) apply the Polish noun case grammar to English words when speaking Polish? Does this seem normal, correct, desirable?


----------



## BezierCurve

It depends what type of words you have in mind. If you mean all those technical neologisms then it does seem normal and correct, but it usually needs time to get officially accepted and to become part of the Polish dictionary. Meanwhile people somehow have to deal with it.

It's not only nouns. There are quite a few verbs and even adjectives which had to take such a flexible form in order to be used at all.

In some cases the word ending may decide whether the word will undergo inflections or not. If it sounds awkward (like: "fee" - btw. with a very narrow scope in Polish), people tend to leave it without any alterations. 

In other cases, like all the "-er"s, "-or"s and "-ing"s it happens almost automatically, as there are hundreds of similar cases already incorporated into the Polish dictionary.

Now, if you meant ordinary words like "payslip" used instead of "fiszka", a change of words which can't be really justified - that's something that Polish teachers and generally well educated Poles would certainly frown upon.

But then again, during last few years a new generation emerged (counted in hundred of thousands people) who live abroad, use such words on daily basis and often come back to the country with that new habbit. 

Not sure what the outcome will be, but I bet a few new words will finally replace original (i.e. Polish) ones; especially since modern media love to use such terms.


----------



## El Torero

IMHO applying polish grammar to foreign words (not just English; note how many words are derived from German especially in Western and South-Western Poland) is... interesting ;] It doesn't bother me but I think it's easy to overdo.
However, it annoys me that the names of new technologies are simply _polonised _(?). Scientists, professors and whoever it may concern should find equivalents in Polish language or create some.
On the other hand artificial naming may sound... well: artificial ;] Sometimes it's easy to use the English name as to avoid misinterpretation by translation. 
So when we take a foreign word, at first it's not always comprehensible, but a bit later it's recognizable by everyone and slowly planted into the Polish language; Polish suffixed are added, Polish declination is applied - in the end the word is neither English nor Polish


----------



## majlo

Yesterday I heard a woman say _Samochód jest targetowany (...)_ (A car is targeted at (...)) which to my ears sounds ridiculous. 

I second Bezier's opinion that it doesn't sound so bad if it's a jargon, be it technical or any other.


----------



## Kos

I'm not a native Polish speaker, but I do see a lot of anglicized words. I agree with El Torero, that its easy to overdo. I love learning Polish because it is the language of my ancestors, and of course, because its a language _other_ than my native one.  It's hard to put what I want to say in words, but when languages are translated word for word, it almost takes away the cultural feel, you know? I'm learning Polish to learn Polish - not to learn English words with a "Polish feel".


----------



## Ben Jamin

BezierCurve said:


> It depends what type of words you have in mind. If you mean all those technical neologisms then it does seem normal and correct, but it usually needs time to get officially accepted and to become part of the Polish dictionary. Meanwhile people somehow have to deal with it.
> 
> It's not only nouns. There are quite a few verbs and even adjectives which had to take such a flexible form in order to be used at all.
> 
> In some cases the word ending may decide whether the word will undergo inflections or not. If it sounds awkward (like: "fee" - btw. with a very narrow scope in Polish), people tend to leave it without any alterations.
> 
> In other cases, like all the "-er"s, "-or"s and "-ing"s it happens almost automatically, as there are hundreds of similar cases already incorporated into the Polish dictionary.
> 
> Now, if you meant ordinary words like "payslip" used instead of "fiszka", a change of words which can't be really justified - that's something that Polish teachers and generally well educated Poles would certainly frown upon.
> 
> But then again, during last few years a new generation emerged (counted in hundred of thousands people) who live abroad, use such words on daily basis and often come back to the country with that new habbit.
> 
> Not sure what the outcome will be, but I bet a few new words will finally replace original (i.e. Polish) ones; especially since modern media love to use such terms.


 
A great deal of "word import" happens mainly because the user does not know that there already is a native word which can (and should) be used.
I like the Ockham's razor principle: "entia non sunt multiplicanda sine necessitate" (entities must not be multiplied without necessity), and applying it to language: words must not be multiplied without necessity.


----------



## BezierCurve

> I like the Ockham's razor principle: "entia non sunt multiplicanda sine necessitate" (entities must not be multiplied without necessity), and applying it to language: words must not be multiplied without necessity.


True, but this trend to keep things simple can (and it does!) make people use the shorter and more convenient words. English words - on average - are shorter than their Polish counterparts, hence some people will often replace the Polish version with the English one. 

And so, "opłata" is no longer used where "fee" applies, "pod koniec tygodnia" more and more often will be replaced with "w weekend" and "samochód dostawczy" with "wan" etc.


----------



## Ben Jamin

BezierCurve said:


> True, but this trend to keep things simple can (and it does!) make people use the shorter and more convenient words. English words - on average - are shorter than their Polish counterparts, hence some people will often replace the Polish version with the English one.
> 
> And so, "opłata" is no longer used where "fee" applies, "pod koniec tygodnia" more and more often will be replaced with "w weekend" and "samochód dostawczy" with "wan" etc.


 I think that 'fee' is a good example of a very bad new word in Polish. Impossible to inflect and completely reduntant. Who has problems with pronouncing 'opłata'? Those using it should be ridiculed (stoi kara na kornerze).


----------



## majlo

That's interesting. To me "pod koniec tygodnia" is quite different from "w weekend". If I say "pod koniec tygodnia", I most likely mean Thursday or Friday. "W weekend" would be Saturday and Sunday. 

As for "opłata", I've never heard it replaced with "fee", but when I worked in a cinema, "pasek wypłat" would often be replaced with "payslip". And "zwrot pieniędzy" was always referred to as "refund".


----------



## BezierCurve

> To me "pod koniec tygodnia" is quite different from "w weekend".


You have a point here, in many cases that's how it's used by people working 5 days per week (so, the majority). That was the first example I could think of in my own context though.

Also, in case of a "wan" I am aware of the word "furgon" / "furgonetka"; both of them aren't very popular though, apparently losing to "wan".

As for the "fee" I find it a bit ridiculous myself, but that's how some of the advertising agencies try to create their "cosmopolitan" image. It can be found in some of  printed dictionaries of Polish and also on  http://www.sjp.pl/fee


----------



## kknd

In most cases using borrowed words is due to ignorance of speaker which should be stigmatised—you've already shown very natural substitutes for some borrowings and this proves that one can use language in a consious way. I do not find any fair uses for words like _fee_ or _target_ (_corner_ as _korner_!?) in Polish; in my opinion those come from inability of speaker to think critically especially if Pole in question lives in Poland!

Although I understand reasons for using those words (shorter, etc.) and I feel that words like _weekend_ or _ketchup_ (but cf. keczup!) have already found their way to Polish (language and hearts), I think that we should be more aware in using words we already have to our disposition.

Problems of new words (for new ideas) should be treated as of most concern in scientific and academic environments where new words for new technologies and concepts are coined—but this seems to be a little bit different matter… Nonetheless the utmost care should be ensured here!


----------



## BezierCurve

While I agree with your point of view, I think it is hard to tell in what direction a natural language "should" evolve. It happens by itself.

Further borrowing of words is inevitable, I'm afraid.


----------



## majlo

I couldn't agree more. In France, Sarkozy wanted to replace the English-sounding names in computing with their French equivalents which were especially made up for that occasion. The French wouldn't even hear about it.


----------



## atsamo

><FISH'> said:


> What does everyone think of how people (especially younger) apply the Polish noun case grammar to English words when speaking Polish? Does this seem normal, correct, desirable?


 
Hi,

I strongly believe that prescriptive grammar is always going to lose to the descriptive one. What seems to be unacceptable today, it will be in use tomorrow. American technology, especially IT, is developing in such a speed that it is almost natural to acquire new English words without even trying to find a Polish equivalent. In Polish the noun "poczta elektroniczna" is called "email" or "e-mail" and it is very often used in different cases, e.g. " ...powiadomiłem go e-mail'em", or without case "usługa e-mail". Which usage is correct I'm not quite sure; in my opinion both are acceptable.


----------



## Kos

atsamo said:


> American technology, especially IT, is developing in such a speed that it is almost natural to acquire new English words without even trying to find a Polish equivalent.


 
I know this thread is a bit old, but I recently came across an article, and something in it completely caught me off guard.

Sentence from an article on Gazeta.pl:
"_Na Facebooka pędzą firmy, by kusić internautów i przekonywać, że są cool_."

I don't know what native Poles would think of this, but as a native English speaker, this actually annoys me.  I thought Gazeta.pl was a trusted and "professional" news site. Do you guys have any thoughts on this? 

If anyone would like to read the article I'm talking about, it can be found here.


----------



## robin74

In this context I don't have any problem with the phrase.


----------



## jacquesvd

majlo said:


> I couldn't agree more. In France, Sarkozy wanted to replace the English-sounding names in computing with their French equivalents which were especially made up for that occasion. The French wouldn't even hear about it.


 
Sometimes the French equivalent sounds artificial and doesn't make it; sometimes though it completely replaces the Englishe.g. "logiciel" instead of "software", télécharger instead of to download, etc) or comes to live next to the English and is generally used more frequently (e.g. courriel instead of e-mail).


----------



## acornek

Oh, come on! Borrowing words from other languages is a phenomenon that always existed! That is how languages develop, so it is - just like BezierCurve said - inevitable.

So, as long as these "English words with a Polish feel" are used in a right context why bother? And by "right context" I mean in unofficial communication until they are accepted in official use.


----------



## jacquesvd

acornek said:


> Oh, come on! Borrowing words from other languages is a phenomenon that always existed! That is how languages develop, so it is - just like BezierCurve said - inevitable.
> 
> So, as long as these "English words with a Polish feel" are used in a right context why bother? And by "right context" I mean in unofficial communication until they are accepted in official use.


 
I don't think anybody has a problem with borrowing words from other languages: English itself is a good example!

There may be examples of excessive borrowing when the imported word doesn't fill a gap or isn't adding any nuance but I don't think it would ever hurt the normal development of a language. 
Very often a language will --over time-- adapt the English word in prononciation, orthography; sometimes use it slightly differently or --surprisingly-- replace it with a new word after years or even decades (e.g. originally all soccer  terms in my language were English for several decades but at the end they were replaced with Dutch words; the same happened or is happening with some but not all computer terms and nobody can steer it)
We only know that coercion doesn't work and that it must be a natural development. Take as an example the French word 'courriel' for email:at first the French Academy recommended the literal translation 'poste électronique' that didn't catch on but 'courriel', first used by a Canadian is now the more common word because it fits so much more smoothly in the melody of French .   

I wouldn't bother at all about "borrowings": if they don't really fit or constitute bad style they usually get  thrown out at the end and replaced.


----------

