# South Slavic Dialect Continuum - Classifications



## DarkChild

MOD EDIT: Moved from the standard Language Comprehension thread



Bog Svarog said:


> The Pirin Macedonian sounds the most natural to me, along with the Shopski, although I wouldn't classify them as strictly "Bulgarian".


And what do you classify them as?


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## Bog Svarog

DarkChild said:


> And what do you classify them as?


I'll *definately* not classify them as Bulgarian in any conceivable way, with Pirin Macedonian obviously being a Macedonian dialect, and Shopski being just that, Shopski (neither Bulgarian or Macedonian, but a South Slavic transitional language).
Sort of like Kumanovski, which is a transition into southern Serb Torlak. Then again, Kumanovski is part of the historic Shop region.

In retrospect, I will go on to say, that I declare the inhabitants of the  Bogdanci/Gevgelija area in Macedonia, to be speaking *Bulgarian*, and nothing but Bulgarian.


As I can see some obvious accusations coming my way, I'll say that I've never called myself a Macedonian (in the ethnic sense), nor will I ever, and my motivations cannot be politically motivated in any way. I'm just making observations from a linguistic point of view, so try to not be offended. ;-)


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## DenisBiH

Bog Svarog said:


> As I can see some obvious accusations coming my way, I'll say that I've never called myself a Macedonian (in the ethnic sense), nor will I ever, and my motivations cannot be politically motivated in any way. I'm just making observations from a linguistic point of view, so try to not be offended. ;-)




In my experience, pretty much everybody who wants to convince somebody else that he or another person does not speak the language they claim they speak, but in fact speak another language, will make the assertion of not being motivated by anything else but pure linguistic science. It warms my heart when I read that claim.


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## Arath

Bog Svarog said:


> The Pirin Macedonian sounds the most natural to me, along with the Shopski, although I wouldn't classify them as strictly "Bulgarian".



It's interesting because the dialects spoken in Pirin Macedonia don't have the antepenultimate stess of the standard Macedonian language (as far as I know neither do the dialects spoken in Eastern Vardar Macedonia). In fact, they have a universal last syllable stress in the aorist tense, in contrast with the dialects of Northwestern and Eastern Bulgaria.


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## Bog Svarog

DenisBiH said:


> In my experience, pretty much everybody who wants to convince somebody else that he or another person does not speak the language they claim they speak, but in fact speak another language, will make the assertion of not being motivated by anything else but pure linguistic science. It warms my heart when I read that claim.


You are making quite some wrongful assumptions there my friend, as I don't have to try to convince anybody, as the facts speak for themselves. 
Pay note to the part where you say "they claim to speak".

I've been to Bulgaria numerous times, and 9 out of 10 Pirin Macedonians tell me that they speak Macedonian.
I always try to get a confirmation out of them by asking: "so hold on, you don't speak Bulgarian, but Macedonian?". They always reply "yes" to this.
If from a linguistic point of view they speak Macedonian, and not Bulgarian, and they say this themselves too, I believe this part is solved.
On to the Shopi.

The Shopski spoken on both the Macedonian and Bulgarian territory can factually be called one and the same language/dialect.
However, the speakers on the Macedonian side claim they speak a Macedonian dialect, and the speakers on the Bulgarian side claim they speak a Bulgarian dialect.
Logic dictates that this is impossible, and hence these feeling can only be political ones, which have no linguistic base.
You can not have two nearly identical dialects which are classified as two dialects of two officially recognized different languages. It's absurd.


This is not a political discussion, but a linguistic one. I'm betting the average inhabitant of Bulgaria will feel offended by my statements, however, I've already showed that the pendulum swings both ways here.
There is language spoken on Macedonian soil which is not classifiable as Macedonian, and there is language spoken on Bulgarian soil which is not classifiable as Bulgarian. This is not the only part in the world where it is like this. The imaginary political boundaries drawn up in the 19th century shouldn't influence our objective view on the (ethno)linguistic composition of South Slavic peoples; let's leave that to the fanatics.
No hard feelings here towards anybody by the way.


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## DenisBiH

> Logic dictates that this is impossible, and hence these feeling can only be political ones, which have no linguistic base.
> You can not have two nearly identical dialects which are classified as two dialects of two officially recognized different languages. It's absurd.



Logic dictates no such thing. Linguistic identity is not made of nor by isoglosses but by political and social factors. Now, since politics existed much before modern linguistics was ever conceived, politics naturally gets to have the primary say about linguistic identity. If linguists are not happy, they can always satisfy themselves dealing with (studying and classifying) dialects and stop meddling in linguistic identity and identity politics in general.

But again, in my opinion it is more often than not true that those dealing with linguistic identity have their own political agendas. You seem to be one of them. So am I, but I don't think I hide that fact.



> This is not a political discussion, but a linguistic one.



No, it is exactly the opposite. The moment you start playing with linguistic identity you've crossed into politics. If you want to be purely linguistic, speak about dialects and dialect groups or about standard languages and their norms. But the moment you start throwing the word "language" about without these additional qualifications, by default you are dealing with politics.


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## TriglavNationalPark

DenisBiH said:


> No, it is exactly the opposite. The moment you start playing with linguistic identity you've crossed into politics. If you want to be purely linguistic, speak about dialects and dialect groups or about standard languages and their norms. But the moment you start throwing the word "language" about without these additional qualifications, by default you are dealing with politics.



MOD NOTE: Denis is absolutely right, so please limit the discussion to purely linguistic issues.


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## Bog Svarog

Arath said:


> It's interesting because the dialects spoken in Pirin Macedonia don't have the antepenultimate stess of the standard Macedonian language (as far as I know neither do the dialects spoken in Eastern Vardar Macedonia). In fact, they have a universal last syllable stress in the aorist tense, in contrast with the dialects of Northwestern and Eastern Bulgaria.


What you say is true, I'm not going to deny that.
However, as you say, they share a lot of commonalities with the language spoken in Eastern Macedonia, as far as stress goes.
Just two examples:
káži vs kaží.
Znáči vs značí.
My girlfriend has a friend from Sandanski, and I clearly hear her talking like this with her other friends from Sandanski.
Overal I'd still say that Pirin Macedonian, just like regular Eastern Macedonian, has a very Bulgarian feel to me, when it comes down to stress.

However, I can turn it around, and say that even the Bulgarian from Sofia has a very Macedonian feel to me.
This is what my girlfriend (from Sofia) says:
She: Се видиме
Macedonian: Се видиме
She: чуеш ли защо ти збора(м)?
Macedonian: чуеш ли зашто ти зборам?
Her parents are from Pernik though, so she could be influenced by that, I can't say for sure.

A potentially endless discussion is what you can get out of these things... 

PS: I'll leave it at that though, as it is getting a bit off-topic.


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## Arath

Bog Svarog said:


> I've been to Bulgaria numerous times, and 9 out of 10 Pirin Macedonians tell me that they speak Macedonian.
> I always try to get a confirmation out of them by asking: "so hold on, you don't speak Bulgarian, but Macedonian?". They always reply "yes" to this.
> If from a linguistic point of view they speak Macedonian, and not Bulgarian, and they say this themselves too, I believe this part is solved.
> 
> There is language spoken on Macedonian soil which is not classifiable as Macedonian, and there is language spoken on Bulgarian soil which is not classifiable as Bulgarian.



We may have to split because the moderators in this forum are very strict. I sincerely hope that these last few comments don't get deleted.

I can scientifically prove that the dialects spoken in Pirin Macedonia are closer to the standard Bulgarian language than to the Western Macedonian dialects and the standard Macedonian language.

First, the yat border crosses this region, so in the extreme South East (Gotse Delchev), they speak an Eastern Bulgarian dialect - they have vowel reduction, allophonic palatalization in front of "*e*" and "*i*" and the reflex of *ѫ* and *ъ* is the schwa vowel, so they say *път (/pɤ̞t/) * and *сън (/sɤ̞n/)*, not  *пат (/pat/)* and *сон (/sɔn/)* as in standard Macedonian

Throughout this region the consonant clusters **tj* and **dj* are pronounced */ʃt/* and */ʒd/*, so people from this region say *леща (/'lɛʃta/)* and *вежда (/'vɛʒda/)*, unlike the standard Macedonian *леќа* *(/'lɛca/)* and *веѓа (/'vɛɟa/)*.

The stress position in free, unlike the antepenultimate stress of western Macedonian dialects.

The dialects of Pirin Macedonia don't have three definite articles, like standard Macedonian.

They don't have *има-* and *сум-* constructions.

The biggest difference between the dialects of Pirin Macedonia and the standard Macedonian language is the absence of Serbian and Latin words. I would really like to know if a 70-year-old person who claims to speak Macedonian, understands words like "*negiram*", "*afirmiram*".



Bog Svarog said:


> káži vs kaží.


*Káži* is used by people from Plovdiv or Haskovo or even my own grandparents from Southern Starozagorsko. In fact it is only in the extreme Northeast that people say *kaží*.



Bog Svarog said:


> Znáči vs značí.


I have never heard anyone say *značí*, you must be confused.



Bog Svarog said:


> This is what my girlfriend (from Sofia) says:
> She: Се видиме
> Macedonian: Се видиме.



People from Sofia say *ш'се видиме*. The "*ш*" might be difficult to hear.


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## Bog Svarog

Arath said:


> We may have to split because the moderators in  this forum are very strict. I sincerely hope that these last few  comments don't get deleted.


I guess I'm allowed to continue the discussion here. 



> I can scientifically prove that the dialects spoken in Pirin Macedonia  are closer to the standard Bulgarian language than to the Western  Macedonian dialects and the standard Macedonian language.


Oh boy...I feel a difficult discussion coming up.



> First, the yat border crosses this region, so in the extreme South East  (Gotse Delchev), they speak an Eastern Bulgarian dialect - they have  vowel reduction, allophonic palatalization in front of "*e*" and "*i*" and the reflex of *ѫ* and *ъ* is the schwa vowel, so they say *път (/pɤ̞t/) * and *сън (/sɤ̞n/)*, not  *пат (/pat/)* and *сон (/sɔn/)* as in standard Macedonian


You are absolutely right.
I do consider the Yat-border to be important, although not a be-all-end-all solution to any question regarding this issue.
Gotse Delchev is, by my definition, a place where they speak a Bulgarian dialect. I wouldn't call it an Eastern Bulgarian dialect though.



> Throughout this region the consonant clusters **tj* and **dj* are pronounced */ʃt/* and */ʒd/*, so people from this region say *леща (/'lɛʃta/)* and *вежда (/'vɛʒda/)*, unlike the standard Macedonian *леќа* *(/'lɛca/)* and *веѓа (/'vɛɟa/)*.


I'm not that interested in "standard Macedonian"; fact of the matter is, that the pronunciation you speak of, is to some degree quite common in Eastern Macedonia.
My pronunciation is a northern (Skopje) one, and I pronounce *леќа *and*веѓа* as *лека* and*вега*.
As I've said: the Eastern Macedonian speaking has a very Bulgarian feel to me. 



> The stress position in free, unlike the antepenultimate stress of western Macedonian dialects.


Like you say: in Western Macedonian dialects yes.
Even some northern dialects have (appearant) free stress.



> The dialects of Pirin Macedonia don't have three definite articles, like standard Macedonian.


Correct. 



> They don't have *има-* and *сум-* constructions.


Quite true.



> The biggest difference between the dialects of Pirin Macedonia and the  standard Macedonian language is the absence of Serbian and Latin words. I  would really like to know if a 70-year-old person who claims to speak  Macedonian, understands words like "*negiram*", "*afirmiram*".


Well, as far as "afirmiram" goes: this is the first time in my life that I've heard this word.
I would say "потвърдам".



> *Káži* is used by people from Plovdiv or Haskovo or even  my own grandparents from Southern Starozagorsko. In fact it is only in  the extreme Northeast that people say *kaží*.


I hear *kaží *coming out of the mouth of every living Bulgarian. The only time when I don't hear it, is when I hear this girl from Sandanski talk.
This summer I'm going to Burgas from Skopje, by car. I'll stop over in Haskovo, and have a hear. 



> I have never heard anyone say *značí*, you must be confused.


Most certainly not, sir.
From Sofia to Sozopol, I hear *značí* all the time.
I can even recall an exact conversation between two men from Kranevo and Sofia that I heard lately in a bar. The guy from Sofia said: "*značí*".



> People from Sofia say *ш'се видиме*. The "*ш*" might be difficult to hear.


Regardless of what is meant, there is definately no *ш *present.
Remember, I made a satirical comment, about how I could turn it around, and say that even Sofiski could sound Macedonian to me.


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## Arath

I can post the links to two videos, broadcast perhaps 50 or more years ago on the Macedonian national TV in the then Macedonian language. The only differences between the Macedonian language used in these videos and the standard Bulgarian language are different stress position and the pronunciation of *Ѣ, Ѫ*, *Ъ*, *Щ *and* ЖД*. Otherwise, it is perfectly understandable to Bulgarian speakers, much more so than the modern version of the Macedonian language with the many Serbian and Latin words. Why has the language changed so much in so little time?

In one of the videos, one can see how people from Blagoevgrad (then Gorna Dzhumaya) are being taught the literary Macedonian language by writing words in Standard Bulgarian (using the orthography before 1945) on the blackboard then an arrow pointing to their equivalent in literary Macedonian. I really looks like teaching someone a foreign language: first give the word in the native language and then its equivalent in the target language.



Bog Svarog said:


> Well, as far as "afirmiram" goes: this is the first time in my life that I've heard this word.
> I would say "потвърдам".



Again, I can give you links from national Macedonian TV channels using this word.

If any moderator is reading this, please, let me know if I'm allowed to post these links. [Contacted via PM -- TNP]


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## DarkChild

Bog Svarog said:


> However, I can turn it around, and say that even the Bulgarian from Sofia has a very Macedonian feel to me.
> This is what my girlfriend (from Sofia) says:
> She: Се видиме
> Macedonian: Се видиме
> She: чуеш ли защо ти збора(м)?
> Macedonian: чуеш ли зашто ти зборам?
> Her parents are from Pernik though, so she could be influenced by that, I can't say for sure.
> 
> A potentially endless discussion is what you can get out of these things...
> 
> PS: I'll leave it at that though, as it is getting a bit off-topic.



I don't know what she's influenced by but this definitely doesn't sound like anything a young person from Sofia would say. Се видиме without anything in the beginning sounds very unnatural for any dialect in Bulgarian. I would bet that she either said some form of ще (ше, шъ, ш') or хайде (айде, ай, etc.) in the beginning. And зборам is definitely not a word used in Sofia or anywhere else for that matter, unless maybe in some extreme dialects. So the person from your example is not a typical case of Sofia dialect.

By the way, I very much doubt your claim that 9 out of 10 people in South-Western Bulgaria would tell you they speak Macedonian.


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## Bog Svarog

Arath said:


> I can post the links to two videos, broadcast perhaps 50 or more years  ago on the Macedonian national TV in the then Macedonian language. The  only differences between the Macedonian language used in these videos and the standard Bulgarian language are different stress position and the pronunciation of *Ѣ, Ѫ*, *Ъ*, *Щ *and* ЖД*. Otherwise, it is perfectly understandable to Bulgarian speakers, much more so than the modern version of the Macedonian language with the many Serbian and Latin words. Why has the language changed so much in so little time?


The language has changed mostly because of (forced) Serbization of the Macedonian people.
What can I say...Bulgaria wasn't a part of the SFRJ, and the inhabitants of Vardar Macedonia got Serbisized, linguistically speaking.
But you know this.



> In one of the videos, one can see how people from Blagoevgrad (then Gorna Dzhumaya) are being taught the literary Macedonian language by writing words in Standard Bulgarian (using the orthography before 1945) on the blackboard then an arrow pointing to their equivalent in literary Macedonian. I really looks like teaching someone a foreign language: first give the word in the native language and then its equivalent in the target language.


I wouldn't say that this sounds completely objective.
Weren't they already being taught literary Bulgarian before that, by the Bulgarian exarchate? Hence, this literary Bulgarian would have been a good reference point for learning another literary language? You'll agree with me that there was never an official literary Pirin Macedonian language.



> Again, I can give you links from national Macedonian TV channels using this word.
> 
> If any moderator is reading this, please, let me know if I'm allowed to post these links.


The language used on TV sometimes sounds completely ridiculous and pretentious to me. I wouldn't attach much value to it if I were you.
A lot of these words I, as many of my fellow Skopians, would *never* use. Never ever.

The average Bulgarian that watches Macedonian TV and hears "leglo" will think "Hah they speak Bulgarian after all!", only to be completely confused and later disappointed when he finds out that every living person talks about "krevet", which is Serbian for bed.
I could make *quite* a lengthy list with examples like this.


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## Arath

Bog Svarog said:


> I wouldn't say that this sounds completely objective.
> Weren't they already being taught literary Bulgarian before that, by the Bulgarian exarchate? Hence, this literary Bulgarian would have been a good reference point for learning another literary language? You'll agree with me that there was never an official literary Pirin Macedonian language.



Yes, they had been taught literary Bulgarian, for many years perhaps. Ever since the standard Bulgarian language arose in the middle of the 19th century, people from all over Bulgaria, including the geographical region Macedonia, were taught this language. People like Jane Sandanski and Gotse Delchev are known to have used it.



Bog Svarog said:


> The language used on TV sometimes sounds completely ridiculous and pretentious to me. I wouldn't attach much value to it if I were you.
> A lot of these words I, as many of my fellow Skopians, would *never* use. Never ever.


We don't have that big a difference between the standard language used on television and everyday speech. There definitely are differences but they are mainly restricted to ones of pronunciation.



Bog Svarog said:


> The average Bulgarian that watches Macedonian TV and hears "leglo" will think "Hah they speak Bulgarian after all!", only to be completely confused and later disappointed when he finds out that every living person talks about "krevet", which is Serbian for bed.
> I could make *quite* a lengthy list with examples like this.



We have and use the word "креват". In some cases it is preferred over "легло" as in "креватна гимнастика".


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## DenisBiH

> The average Bulgarian that watches Macedonian TV and hears "leglo" will think "Hah they speak Bulgarian after all!", only to be completely confused and later disappointed when he finds out that every living person talks about "krevet", which is Serbian for bed.



Erm, _krevet _is actually a loanword from Ottoman Turkish, and to be even more precise, it got there from Greek. You sure it entered Macedonian via Serbian and that it isn't a borrowing Macedonian and Serbian share?


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## Bog Svarog

DarkChild said:


> I don't know what she's influenced by but this definitely doesn't sound like anything a young person from Sofia would say. Се видиме without anything in the beginning sounds very unnatural for any dialect in Bulgarian. I would bet that she either said some form of ще (ше, шъ, ш') or хайде (айде, ай, etc.) in the beginning. And зборам is definitely not a word used in Sofia or anywhere else for that matter, unless maybe in some extreme dialects. So the person from your example is not a typical case of Sofia dialect.


As I said: her parents are from a village near Breznik, Pernik, very close to the Serbian border.
She also uses words like "ружна" for "ugly", which I do not believe are part of common Bulgarian vocabulary.



> By the way, I very much doubt your claim that 9 out of 10 people in South-Western Bulgaria would tell you they speak Macedonian.


I have an interesting story to tell about that.
A long time ago, when I still hadn't visited Bulgaria, I was aware of all the rivalry between Macedonians and Bulgarians regarding this issue.
However, I always sided with the Bulgarians on this particular matter. I thought the Macedonians were just talking rubbish, fed to them by Serb-Communist propaganda. I would see and hear Bulgarians say "come to Bulgaria and you'll see they'll call themselves Bulgarians!", and thought this to be true.
When I came to Bulgaria (Sofia) for the first time, I was surprised to find Pirin Macedonians, who uncompromisingly declared themselves to be speaking Macedonian.
Because of my skepsis, I always tried to get reaffirmations out of them, which were in turn given to me: "Yes, I speak Macedonian, not Bulgarian".
On a side note though, most of the time they also say: "but Macedonian and Bulgarian are the same".


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## Bog Svarog

DenisBiH said:


> Erm, _krevet _is actually a loanword from Ottoman Turkish, and to be even more precise, it got there from Greek. You sure it entered Macedonian via Serbian and that it isn't a borrowing Macedonian and Serbian share?


I'm quite sure that Krevet, regardless of it's origin, came to Macedonian through Serbian.

Any scholar who has profound knowledge of this subject may feel free to correct me.


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## DenisBiH

Bog Svarog said:


> I'm quite sure that Krevet, regardless of it's origin, came to Macedonian through Serbian.
> 
> Any scholar who has profound knowledge of this subject may feel free to correct me.




Other than your profound knowledge, could you perhaps cite some sources for this?


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## Bog Svarog

Arath said:


> We don't have that big a difference between the standard language used on television and everyday speech. There definitely are differences but they are mainly restricted to ones of pronunciation.
> When I hear Shopski/Pirin Macedonian, the differences with the literary language are more profound than just mere pronunciation. ;-)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We have and use the word "креват". In some cases it is preferred over "легло" as in "креватна гимнастика".
> 
> 
> 
> I've never heard a Bulgarian say it, I'm sorry.
> Anyway, the point being, was that the words used on Macedonian TV are sometimes completely outlandish to the people (at least to me), and hence the language used on the Macedonian TV can't be used for comparison just like that.
Click to expand...


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## Arath

Bog Svarog said:


> When I hear Shopski/Pirin Macedonian, the differences with the literary language are more profound than just mere pronunciation. ;-)



What I mean to say is that in Bulgaria we have much more dialect  levelling than in Macedonia and the other countries of former  Yugoslavia. While it is true that there are people speaking in their  original dialect, their numbers are diminishing and such people are very  likely to be considered extremely uneducated. In my personal experience  I have never heard people below the age of 60 use h-dropping, despite  the fact that it is prevalent in most dialects, never heard anyone say  "сон", "пат", "пут", "со", "во". I have heard people say "мъжо" and "гъзо" but, as I said, that's very uneducated speech.



Bog Svarog said:


> Anyway, the point being, was that the words used on Macedonian TV are sometimes completely outlandish to the people (at least to me), and hence the language used on the Macedonian TV can't be used for comparison just like that.



It is highly unlikely that a word used on National TV would sound outlandish to a native Bulgarian speaker, unless it's some fancy medical, political or scientific term.


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## iobyo

Bog Svarog said:
			
		

> Anyway, the point being, was that the words used on Macedonian TV are sometimes completely outlandish to the people (at least to me), and hence the language used on the Macedonian TV can't be used for comparison just like that.



Naturally, I'd like to add my two cents in this thread. For now I'll just say that Standard Macedonian doesn't sound the least bit 'outlandish' to anyone living in the Republic of Macedonia because it's the language variety we use in every non-intimate situation. Please don't misinterpret me as I don't wish to sound rude but perhaps, as someone does not live in Macedonia, you should refrain from making such comments.


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## Bog Svarog

iobyo said:


> Naturally, I'd like to add my two cents in this thread.


I was expecting you. Welcome! 



> For  now I'll just say that Standard Macedonian doesn't sound the least bit  'outlandish' to anyone living in the Republic of Macedonia because it's  the language variety we use in every non-intimate situation.


What  are these non-intimate situations that you speak of? Discussions in  parliament? Not anything that's important for my everyday life  banalities, that I can be sure of.

I go shopping for groceries - I talk Skopian
I get in a taxi - I talk Skopian
I go talk with a friend/relative - I talk Skopian
I hear my neighbours talk - They talk Skopian
I go out - the barman talks Skopian to me - I order in Skopian likewise
I meet a girl - I talk Skopian to her
I take the taxi back home - I talk Skopian
Please do tell me: when did I use "Standard language" in my day?
By definition, if I never use it, and never have to, then it sounds outlandish to me.

I  happen to be in the situation where roughly 30% of my country's  population lives in my city, and economically/status-wise speaking,  Skopje = Macedonia, and Macedonia = Skopje.
Everybody understands me, wherever I go, and I do not feel any urge to use "literary" language when I speak.
Dare  to come to Skopje and say something like "колку чини на нејата мајка да  и купам нови обувки и велоципед или само легло. , ", and I will burst  out in laughing. If this doesn't happen, I'll buy you a beer (Skopsko  ofcourse).




> Please don't misinterpret me as I don't  wish to sound rude but perhaps, as someone does not live in Macedonia,  you should refrain from making such comments.


Well, you don't sound rude, but you are wrong, in my eyes.
Ти  се извинувам, ама јас живеам во Македонија. Во мој стан, во мој град,  кај што и имам работа, кај што и имам Скопски другари и фамилја, со кои  си зборам Скопски, и само Скопски. Зборам Скопски кога сум во Велес,  Охрид, Струга, Штип, и Куманово, и кај да сум, сите ми викат дека зборам  перфектно Македонски. Мислам дека многу добро знам за што правам муабет  тука.
Плус што имам Скопска мајка, со која си зборувам Скопски, и тоа стално.
Плус што имам роднини, со кои си зборувам преку интернет скоро секој ден.
Секој  жив чоек кој го знам, дали е мој другар, од мојата фамилија, или другар  од фамилијата, или обшто на улицата, од било каков статус, збори како и  јас што зборам. Не викам дека е 100%, ама скоро сите.

Јас ако  кажувам дека за мене, како прав Скопјанец, многу зборови на телевизијата  ми звучат смешни/претенциозни, тогаш тоа си е така. Ако за тебе, како  чоек од Битола, тоа не е така, тоа си е друг муабет.

Исто така ќе кажам дека сите Охриѓани си зборат на Охридски, без врска колку време се во Скопје.
И за нив е смешно кога слушат на телевизија "он прави" во место "он правит". Муабетот не е дали го разбират, но дали им е чудно/смешно.


PS: уште ке кажам ова: пред 2 години извадив Македонско државјанство и пасош. Пошто исмислиле нов закон треаше да одам на испит за владеенје Македонски јазик, у МВР беше ако не се лажам.
Влегов у собата, и имаше едни две бабички унутра. Седнав на астал и треаше да зборам.
Руките ми летат од лево до десно, а ја лупам, рокам, цепам Скопски бачко, тропам безвези од почеток до крај, ич неам гајле, ме сфаќаш ли шо ти викам?
Ја па мислев дека треаше целиот муабет сам да го водам, ама едната бабичка после 3-4 минути ми рече дека и беше јасно дека зборам одлично Македонски, и од тогаш она си кажујеше приказни за нејзините роднини у Амстердам.
Мислам дека тоа беше доста "non intimate", ама си владеев (и тоа доста дугачко), и изгледа дека знам за шо праам муабет.
Така да, имам пуно право да кажувам дека јазикот на телевизијата ми звучи смешен, без разлика колку месеци у годината сум у Скопје.

Разбираш ли ме, братко?


----------



## Bog Svarog

Arath said:


> What I mean to say is that in Bulgaria we have much more dialect  levelling than in Macedonia and the other countries of former  Yugoslavia. While it is true that there are people speaking in their  original dialect, their numbers are diminishing and such people are very  likely to be considered extremely uneducated. In my personal experience  I have never heard people below the age of 60 use h-dropping, despite  the fact that it is prevalent in most dialects, never heard anyone say  "сон", "пат", "пут", "со", "во". I have heard people say "мъжо" and "гъзо" but, as I said, that's very uneducated speech.


I've heard some young girls from Sofia tell me that I'm from "оуандия". So there you have it: both h-dropping *and* "mrazlivo l" in one. 



> It is highly unlikely that a word used on National TV would sound outlandish to a native Bulgarian speaker, unless it's some fancy medical, political or scientific term.


I know an official translator of Bulgarian - SerboCroatian - Russian. Needless to say, this guy has "some" education, and knows his way around Slavic languages.
He is from Kranevo by the way.
He often helped me with translating with a girl from Sliven.
He told me, that he often *can not* understand what this girl is saying.
Sliven and Kranevo aren't even that far apart.

I would dare to say that the dialectical differences in Bulgaria are in no way smaller than in Macedonia.


----------



## Arath

Bog Svarog said:


> I've heard some young girls from Sofia tell me that I'm from "оуандия". So there you have it: both h-dropping *and* "mrazlivo l" in one.



I find that really hard to believe. I have never heard h-dropping in young speakers and I just don't believe you. I don't think that the so called "мързеливо л" is a dialect feature because it's present to a greater or lesser degree in every region of Bulgaria, so it's not geographically marked. It's just a marker of informal youth speech.



Bog Svarog said:


> I know an official translator of Bulgarian - SerboCroatian - Russian. Needless to say, this guy has "some" education, and knows his way around Slavic languages.
> He is from Kranevo by the way.
> He often helped me with translating with a girl from Sliven.
> He told me, that he often *can not* understand what this girl is saying.
> Sliven and Kranevo aren't even that far apart.
> 
> I would dare to say that the dialectical differences in Bulgaria are in no way smaller than in Macedonia.



Some people from Eastern Bulgaria really do have strong accents, but it's just that - an accent, like the difference between American and British pronunciation.

I don't deny that the original dialects are very different, I'm just saying that they are dying out very fast. The following features are very unlikely to be found in the speech of people below the age of 50 unless they are some hardcore villagers who have never been to school, and who have never left their village:

h-dropping;
Pronouncing *път* and *сън* as *пат, пут, сон* and so on;
Pronouncing the definite article as *о*:* градо*;
Pronouncing* поляни, пияни, чаши, шапки* as *полени, пийени, чеши, шепки*;
Pronouncing *леща* and *вежда* as *леча*, *веджа*, or *лекя*,* вегя;*
Plural forms ending in "*е*" instead of "*и*": *пръстене, ръкаве*;
First person plural verb forms ending in -*мо* - *говоримо, давамо*;
First person singular verb forms of the first and second conjugation ending in -*м* - *аз говорим, аз перем, аз говорам, аз перам*;
Using words like *яс, я, немой, нога, кошуля, он, она, них*;
Nonstandard stress patterns in nouns: - *вóда, мéсо*, instead of *водá, месó*;
Nonstandard pronunciation of the groups* ър/ръ* and *ъл/лъ*: *влък, влк, вук, дръво, дрво* instead of *вълк, дърво*;
Use of three definite articles - *мъжъс, женаса, детесо, женисе, мъжън, женана, детено, женине* and so on.
Pronunciation of the future particle *ще* as *че, же, ке, кю, жа*;

As you can see there has been considerable dialect levelling.

I don't think that any Bulgarian considers the language spoken on national TV as a foreign language.


----------



## Bog Svarog

> Some people from Eastern Bulgaria really do have strong accents, but it's just that an accent, like the difference between American and British pronunciation.


I doubt that you could find two Brits, or two Americans, who live 150km apart, who are unable to understand eachother in their respective dialects.



> I don't deny that the original dialects are very different, I'm just saying that they are dying out very fast.


I find it nigh impossible that in the long run, through the entire region of Bulgaria, there will be one spoken Bulgarian.
Languages/dialects *always* diverge. History has shown this to be true, no matter how much you try to regulate them.



> The following features are very unlikely to be found in the speech of people below the age of 50 unless they are some hardcore villagers who have never been to school, and who have never left their village:
> 
> h-dropping;


Not so unlikely as you may think. As I've said before, I hear it more often. I do get the impression that this is more part of the Roma-Bulgarian Dialect.


> Using words like *яс, я, немой, нога, кошуля, он, она, них*;


I hear them in Pirin Macedonian. Yes in youngsters too.


> Pronunciation of the future particle *ще* as *че, же, ке, кю, жа*;


Well...you have *ше* in Sofian.
Also, when my girlfriend went to Petrič, and sat down in a cafe, she was asked "що ке се насъркаш?".
Apart from this, I once heard a Macedonian girl talk in a Macedonian that was influenced by Bulgarian, and she used *че*. I'm guessing she picked this up from some Bulgarian dialect (perhaps Blagoevgrad?).



> As you can see there has been considerable dialect levelling.


I will admit that there is dialect leveling.



> I don't think that any Bulgarian considers the language spoken on national TV as a foreign language.


Well I consider it a foreign language! 
All jokes aside though, I also don't consider the Macedonian on TV foreign at all. Sometimes it can be a bit pretentious and odd though, that's all.


----------



## Arath

Bog Svarog said:


> I find it nigh impossible that in the long run, through the entire region of Bulgaria, there will be one spoken Bulgarian.
> Languages/dialects *always* diverge. History has shown this to be true, no matter how much you try to regulate them.


I agree with you, but that's not what I wanted to say. I mean that the numerous original dialects are merging together and now we have less dialects but they cover larger areas.



Bog Svarog said:


> Not so unlikely as you may think. As I've said before, I hear it more often. I do get the impression that this is more part of the Roma-Bulgarian Dialect.


Most of Bulgaria's Roma population are social outsiders.



Bog Svarog said:


> I hear them in Pirin Macedonian. Yes in youngsters too.
> Also, when my girlfriend went to Petrič, and sat down in a cafe, she was asked "що ке се насъркаш?".
> Apart from this, I once heard a Macedonian girl talk in a Macedonian that was influenced by Bulgarian, and she used *че*. I'm guessing she picked this up from some Bulgarian dialect (perhaps Blagoevgrad?).



I don't mean to offend anyone but if a Bulgarian speaker uses such dialect vocabulary he or she will most definitely be considered illiterate and will be socially isolated. You can't be successful in mainstream Bulgarian society and speak like that. I strongly doubt that there are many people who actually do, and if there are, they are an exception.



Bog Svarog said:


> Well I consider it a foreign language!
> All jokes aside though, I also don't consider the Macedonian on TV foreign at all. Sometimes it can be a bit pretentious and odd though, that's all.


You kind of seem to have a negative attitude towards the standard language on Macedonian TV and you are not very eager to use it on an everyday basis. That's not the case in Bulgaria, we look up to and respect the standard Bulgarian language.


----------



## DarkChild

Bog Svarog said:


> I've heard some young girls from Sofia tell me that I'm from "оуандия". So there you have it: both h-dropping *and* "mrazlivo l" in one.



I think they lied to you when you were told you arrived in Sofia. 

EDIT: Oh, if you spoke to Gypsies, that's a completely different story!


----------



## Bog Svarog

Arath said:


> Most of Bulgaria's Roma population are social outsiders.


I don't think much of a linguistic discussion can come out of this, so I have nothing to reply.



> I don't mean to offend anyone but if a Bulgarian speaker uses  such dialect vocabulary he or she will most definitely be considered  illiterate and will be socially isolated.


Well, I actually do find that highly offensive, maybe even arrogant. No offence...
If it were me in that caffe, I would've given the waitress a 20 Leva tip, just for talking to me in her own language.
I  always gets highly annoyed when a Pirin Macedonian talks Bulgarian to  me. Or for that matter a true Sofian, who says something like "няма да  ходим".
No really, my skin starts to crawl in those situations. It's like an Englishman who sings in an American accent. 



> You  can't be successful in mainstream Bulgarian society and speak like  that. I strongly doubt that there are many people who actually do, and  if there are, they are an exception.


We weren't talking about mainstream Bulgarian society though, but a bar in Petrič.

EDIT: Hold on, how could I have forgotten this!? What you say is untrue, and can even be scientifically proven (yes I stole that expression from earlier on in this thread). Ever heard of Karolina Gočeva? She has been on Slavi Trifonov's Show, Bulgarian Idol, and does plenty of interviews on Bulgarian TV. Succesful in "Bulgarian mainstream society"? *Fact.*
Want to know in what language she speaks? The same one as that waitress in the bar in Petrič. Да да комшијо, и она си го срка кафенцето. ;-)
She is in no way regarded as illiterate, or being socially isolated, so your whole theory is hereby proven wrong.

Anyways, my girlfriend speaks in her own dialect - Sofian.
I copy her dialect word for word, sound for sound, and talk like this to every Bulgarian I encounter.
Believe  you me, I could not care less about those things you say about "being  succesful in Bulgarian mainstream society" or "sounding literate".
It  would be prententious beyond words for me, and typical of Balkan  culture (trying to elevate your perceived status by pretending to be  something you are not, with added _faux_ accent). I don't have such  complexes, and feel free and happy with myself because of it.

Over  here in the Netherlands we also have people who stop speaking their own  regional language, but all the regional languages (and we have no less  than 4) are still living and being used.
In Macedonia it's no less different.
In  Ohrid they stick to their dialect, and in Strumica they stick to  theirs. Even when I meet people from Ohrid in the Netherlands, they use  their own dialect, and I'm very happy that they do, to be quite honest.

The thing that you talk about is quite typical for "our people". I see it all the time in Skopje.
Immigrant villagers will not talk their own dialect to their children, because they fear that they will be seen as peasants.
Quite a shame.



> You kind of seem to have a negative attitude towards the standard  language on Macedonian TV and you are not very eager to use it on an  everyday basis. That's not the case in Bulgaria, we look up to and  respect the standard Bulgarian langauge.


The only "standard  language" I'll ever learn is Old Church Slavonic. I simply do not  recognize the authority of the fake standard languages in existence  today, as they are horribly prejudiced towards one group of people, and  are merely a political instrument.
Yes, I have a highly negative  attitude to linguistic imperialism. Everybody *should* speak his  own language, and keep speaking it. Whenever a Sofian speaks Standard Bulgarian to me, I ask him to just speak in his own dialect to me.
My grandmother spoke the way she  spoke as a child, and my mother speaks the same language as she spoke when  she was a child, and I speak like her, and I will teach all my children  to speak exactly like me.
Likewise, I will not tolerate my girlfriend *not* talking Sofian to our children.
Everytime  they'd dare to say something like "вярно" or "рака", I will correct  them. 10 times in a row and they have to do the dishes! Oh yes. 


The  existence of the South Slavic dialect continuum is something admirable,  and I feel that it must be preserved throughout the ages.


----------



## Arath

Bog Svarog said:


> The only "standard  language" I'll ever learn is Old Church Slavonic. I simply do not  recognize the authority of the fake standard languages in existence  today, as they are horribly prejudiced towards one group of people, and  are merely a political instrument.
> Yes, I have a highly negative  attitude to linguistic imperialism. Everybody *should* speak his  own language, and keep speaking it. Whenever a Sofian speaks Standard Bulgarian to me, I ask him to just speak in his own dialect to me.
> My grandmother spoke the way she  spoke as a child, and my mother speaks the same language as she spoke when  she was a child, and I speak like her, and I will teach all my children  to speak exactly like me.
> Likewise, I will not tolerate my girlfriend *not* talking Sofian to our children.
> Everytime  they'd dare to say something like "вярно" or "рака", I will correct  them. 10 times in a row and they have to do the dishes! Oh yes.
> 
> 
> The  existence of the South Slavic dialect continuum is something admirable,  and I feel that it must be preserved throughout the ages.



If people didn't make compromises they wouldn't be able to coexist. It's only natural to accommodate one's idiolect to that of one's interlocutor, otherwise communication would be considerably impaired or even unfeasible. You're taking into account only one of the reasons for the existence of a standard norm. If people all around Bulgaria stuck to their native dialects, we wouldn't be able to understand each other. Some people really do need subtitles.


----------



## DarkChild

Bog Svarog said:


> EDIT: Hold on, how could I have forgotten this!? What you say is untrue, and can even be scientifically proven (yes I stole that expression from earlier on in this thread). Ever heard of Karolina Gočeva? She has been on Slavi Trifonov's Show, Bulgarian Idol, and does plenty of interviews on Bulgarian TV. Succesful in "Bulgarian mainstream society"? *Fact.*



Not really, she became known during her participation in a singing competition but after that she's been totally forgotten. Her songs aren't known by most people, her videos can't be seen on Bulgarian channels. So I can't say she's a mainstream name. Of course, when she was giving interviews she was speaking in her own way, and no one expected her to speak Standard Bulgarian because everyone knew she was a foreigner. That waitress from Petri*ch *will not get the same treatment if she decides to speak like she did to you. She herself will never dream of doing that because she knows she will make a fool out of herself.

By the way, I don't know exactly what Sofia dialect means. There is Shopski in that area but not everyone in Sofia speaks that dialect. In fact, for the majority of Sofia residents Shopski is not a native "language". It is the native dialect of people from towns and villages around Sofia, but not the city itself.


----------



## Bog Svarog

Arath said:


> If people didn't make compromises they wouldn't be  able to coexist. It's only natural to accommodate one's idiolect to  that of one's interlocutor, otherwise communication would be  considerably impaired or even unfeasible. You're taking into account  only one of the reasons for the existence of a standard norm. If people  all around Bulgaria stuck to their native dialects, we wouldn't be able  to understand each other. Some people really do need subtitles.


What you say is very true, up to some extent.

What  I'm saying though, is that our three "invented" Standard languages  (Serbian/Bosnian, Bulgarian, Macedonian), that became state languages  gradually after the dissolvement of the Ottoman empire, are  co-responsible for tearing the dialect continuum apart. This is not  desirable, if you ask me. Then again, I'm a Yugoslav Slavophile (of the  most extreme kind you could think of), so perhaps I'm not  objective...sigh.
Regardless, we could learn much from the Arabic  people, who cling on to their biblical language for media/official use,  and don't let their personal dialects get swayed too much by it (any  Arab please correct me if I'm wrong!). No Arab would have to feel being  discriminated against, because the language that he uses for official  use *is* his own language, and the same for every other Arab as  well, while he can freely speak his own dialect with his neighbours.

I remember my first time in Sofia, my conversations would usually go like this:
"Random question in pseudo-Bulgarian"
"Ehm....do you speak English?"
"Да, ама знам и Български..."
"But I think it's better if we talk in English"
The conversation is rounded up in English, and is followed by an inquisitive face, with:
"Ти от Сърбия ли си бе?"
"Не бе, Македония....?!"
"Аааа...добре...ама защо говориш на Сръбски?"
The average Bulgarian definately needed subtitles for me.

If  it were up to me though, all three "standard" languages of Bulgaria,  Serbia (including Bosnia and Monte Negro), and Macedonia would be  instantly "taken out of service", and replaced by Old Church Slavonic.  If not OCS, then Church Slavic, hell even Russian if it must be so.
If all else fails, I'll even play the "srboman"-card, and advocate Serbian as the lingua franca.

Something that you may find interesting: my mother (Macedonian) speaks Serbocroatian with Bulgarians. When a Bulgarian tells her that he doesn't speak Serbocroatian, my mother asks if they can speak in English.


Standard  languages? Fine with me, but they must not be instruments in destroying  peoples local identity, nor must they be biased by means of prejudice  towards politically dominant groups.
Our standard languages comply with exactly these two things.


----------



## Bog Svarog

DarkChild said:


> Not really, she became known during her participation in a singing competition but after that she's been totally forgotten.


You say "she became known". I also think that she made some money. You thusly are admitting that she had mainstream success; what else could be the meaning of this term?



> Of course, when she was giving interviews she was speaking in her own way, and no one expected her to speak Standard Bulgarian because everyone knew she was a foreigner.


Don't even go there....don't. You know as well as I do, that every living Bulgarian was thinking to himself "She is a Bulgarian, speaking a Bulgarian dialect" when she was on tv. No Bulgarian would call her a foreigner, but merely a "brainwashed" Bulgarian.
Besides, she has a Bulgarian passport, so I can even say that she has the Bulgarian nationality.



> That waitress from Petri*ch *will not get the same treatment if she decides to speak like she did to you. She herself will never dream of doing that because she knows she will make a fool out of herself.


That waitress from Petrič will not get the same treatment, because she has been indoctrinated by the majority of her country, and is fearful of being laughed at, which I find quite shameful and disrespectful.
I've seen it happen countless times that somebody from say Kumanovo, talks in his own dialect, and the receiver (usually a Skopjanec) yelling "ILLITERATE MONKEY!" at him in return...
This happens in every country, no matter what culture. One culture becomes dominant, and tells all the other cultures in the country "you peasants should be quiet and behave like us!". It's the same in Macedonia. In Skopje, the favourite curse word is "seljak", which is used for literally anybody that's not from Skopje, by default.
Kumanovci, Ohridjani, Prilepcani, all "seljaci", who talk "selski".
In Amsterdam we have the same. Not from Amsterdam? Peasant.



> By the way, I don't know exactly what Sofia dialect means. There is Shopski in that area but not everyone in Sofia speaks that dialect. In fact, for the majority of Sofia residents Shopski is not a native "language". It is the native dialect of people from towns and villages around Sofia, but not the city itself.


Come and have a chat with my girlfriend. I can assure you that it's not the same as what's heard on the TV, and also not the same as the Shopski spoken around Sofia.


If there's anything that makes me proud, it's a Skopian talking hardcore Skopian while being interviewed for the news.
These people deserve a medal and statue.


----------



## DarkChild

Bog Svarog said:


> You say "she became known". I also think that she made some money. You thusly are admitting that she had mainstream success; what else could be the meaning of this term?


She had as much success as any random person on Big Brother and was similarly forgotten not long after. 



> Don't even go there....don't. You know as well as I do, that every living Bulgarian was thinking to himself "She is a Bulgarian, speaking a Bulgarian dialect" when she was on tv. No Bulgarian would call her a foreigner, but merely a "brainwashed" Bulgarian.
> Besides, she has a Bulgarian passport, so I can even say that she has the Bulgarian nationality.


I will not have this discussion. All I'm saying is that she had an excuse for speaking the way she was. Petrich waitress doesn't. After all, if you're on TV, you should speak so that all people, not only those in your village, can understand you.


----------



## DarkChild

Bog Svarog said:


> If  it were up to me though, all three "standard" languages of Bulgaria,  Serbia (including Bosnia and Monte Negro), and Macedonia would be  instantly "taken out of service", and replaced by Old Church Slavonic.  If not OCS, then Church Slavic, hell even Russian if it must be so.
> If all else fails, I'll even play the "srboman"-card, and advocate Serbian as the lingua franca.


Now you have really made me laugh.


----------



## Bog Svarog

DarkChild said:


> Now you have really made me laugh.


You shouldn't laugh; you know your country played the russophile-card for over a century, as is still evidenced by your language. 



> All I'm saying is that she had an  excuse for speaking the way  she was. Petrich waitress doesn't. After  all, if you're on TV, you  should speak so that all people, not only  those in your village, can  understand you.


Getting into this too much would possibly start a massive political debate....let's see if that can be prevented.

The thing that started this discussion was, that I don't classify Pirin  Macedonian as Bulgarian, just as I don't classify Shopski as either  Bulgarian or Macedonian. That's what this thread is about after all -  the dialect/language classifications in the South Slavic dialect  continuum.

It should come as no surprise to you, that I would object to said  waitress talking "standard Bulgarian" too much, as it clearly erodes  popularity/usage/knowledge of the own language, which can only be a  pity. I have met some Pirin Macedonians who giggle at the Macedonian  spoken by their fellow townsfolk, and have lost the ability to speak it  themselves, in favour of standard Bulgarian - this is an utter shame and  nothing less.
Likewise, you shouldn't be surprised by me calling the "Bulgarization"  of the Sofia vernacular in the 19th century "the great Shop tragedy".


----------



## iobyo

Bog Svarog said:
			
		

> I go shopping for groceries - I talk  Skopian



At the marketplace,  sure; most of the sellers are from rural areas and lesser educated  anyway (not to rip on the farmers, I'm from such family myself). But go  to one of the modern supermarkets and you won't be addressed in anything  but the best Standard Macedonian that the person knows. In Čair, the  ethnic Albanian checkout girls even speak Macedonian to the ethnic  Albanian customers.



			
				Bog Svarog said:
			
		

> I get in a taxi - I talk  Skopian



Perhaps. You ought to still 'correct' your speech a little. Being strangers, you'd  address the driver in the plural and avoid using too many localisms. It's all about image: we don't want strangers thinking we're uncouth.



			
				Bog Svarog said:
			
		

> I go talk with a friend/relative - I talk Skopian
> I hear my neighbours talk - They talk  Skopian



Naturally.



			
				Bog Svarog said:
			
		

> I go out - the barman talks Skopian to me - I order in  Skopian likewise



This is  where gender might play a role. The  bars and pubs are traditionally the men's domain: it's a place where you  go to unwind, speak your mind and be at ease. Any other time, the  barman recognizes me and greats me with an expletive (I'm sure the other  Balkanians know exactly what I mean). When I'm with a girl, however,  the tone changes and we speak in a more refined, lesser dialectal  manner.



			
				Bog Svarog said:
			
		

> Please do tell me: when did I use "Standard language"  in my day?



Whenever you write  something. That's the very purpose of a standard language.



			
				Bog Svarog said:
			
		

> By definition, if I never use it, and never have to,  then it sounds outlandish to  me.



You've never had to use the standard in Macedonia? 



			
				Bog Svarog said:
			
		

> Everybody understands me, wherever I go, and I do not  feel any urge to use "literary" language when I  speak.



I'm telling you, most  people would feel uncomfortable or even look down upon you if you don't  use it in the correct situations. There's a lot of respect for the  standard language and for those that know when and how to use  it, but twice as much ridicule for those that don't.



			
				Bog Svarog said:
			
		

> колку чини на нејата мајка да  и купам нови обувки и  велоципед или само легло.



„Обувка“ не е исто што и „чевел“, односно „легло“ и „кревет“.



			
				Bog Svarog said:
			
		

> многу зборови на телевизијата  ми звучат  смешни/претенциозни



Едно е  нешто да звучи смешно, а друго е да звучи претенциозно. Книжевниот стил секому е помпезен во споредба со колоритниот  народен јазик.



			
				Bog Svarog said:
			
		

> И за нив е смешно кога слушат на телевизија "он прави"  во место "он  правит".



Никогаш не се говори  „он“ на телевизија, освен како лапсус.



			
				Bog Svarog said:
			
		

> Така да, имам пуно право да кажувам дека јазикот на  телевизијата ми звучи  смешен



Тоа никој не ти го оспорува, но  останува дека на останатите граѓани не им е нималку  смешен.



			
				Bog Svarog said:
			
		

> The thing that started this discussion was, that I don't classify Pirin   Macedonian as Bulgarian, just as I don't classify Shopski as either   Bulgarian or Macedonian.



It's equally transitional to both sides = continuum.  



			
				Bog Svarog said:
			
		

> It should come as no surprise to you, that I would object to said   waitress talking "standard Bulgarian" too much



This is how we are programmed to behave. It would be like demanding a Japanese person not use an honorific.


----------



## DarkChild

Bog Svarog said:


> Getting into this too much would possibly start a massive political debate....let's see if that can be prevented.
> 
> The thing that started this discussion was, that I don't classify Pirin  Macedonian as Bulgarian, just as I don't classify Shopski as either  Bulgarian or Macedonian. That's what this thread is about after all -  the dialect/language classifications in the South Slavic dialect  continuum.
> 
> It should come as no surprise to you, that I would object to said  waitress talking "standard Bulgarian" too much, as it clearly erodes  popularity/usage/knowledge of the own language, which can only be a  pity. I have met some Pirin Macedonians who giggle at the Macedonian  spoken by their fellow townsfolk, and have lost the ability to speak it  themselves, in favour of standard Bulgarian - this is an utter shame and  nothing less.
> Likewise, you shouldn't be surprised by me calling the "Bulgarization"  of the Sofia vernacular in the 19th century "the great Shop tragedy".


I'm curious as to what you classify as Bulgarian. Because apparently, according to you, we speak some Russified Macedonian. Oh wait, that's what nationalist Macedonians claim.


----------



## Bog Svarog

iobyo said:


> At the marketplace,  sure; most of the sellers are  from rural areas and lesser educated  anyway (not to rip on the  farmers, I'm from such family myself). But go  to one of the modern  supermarkets and you won't be addressed in anything  but the best  Standard Macedonian that the person knows. In Čair, the  ethnic Albanian  checkout girls even speak Macedonian to the ethnic  Albanian customers.


You must be delirious....Albanians speaking Macedonian to eachother in public? Tape this for me please.
The only time they'll *ever* do this, is when they are surrounded by Macedonians, and don't want to create a hostile atmosphere. It will always be pressured and awkward sounding.
I  live right next to the Ramstore mall. If I say that I do not get  adressed in anything but the best Standard Macedonian that the person  knows, then you can hold this statement to be 100% true. It's not like I'm making this up... In your  defence, I will admit that some waiters in "high class" establishments  use Standard Macedonian towards me. The funny thing here is that the  boss usually talks Skopian with me nevertheless.
And even though I  was raised in Čair, and have been surrounded by Albanian neighbours, I  have close to 0 contact with Albanian people, so I can't really comment  on how/what they speak in too much detail.



> Perhaps. You ought to still 'correct' your speech a little. Being  strangers, you'd  address the driver in the plural and avoid using too  many localisms. It's all about image: we don't want strangers thinking  we're uncouth.


Hahaha! Oh please, you can not, for the love of god, be serious? Are you? 
The  average taxi driver is *THE BEST EXAMPLE* of a Skopian talking  person. You really couldn't have come up with a better example!
Besides, the average taxi driver conversational material revolves around quite uncouth matters, to say the very least...
I take the taxi up to 4 times a day in Skopje, so believe you me, I know what I'm talking about.



> This is  where gender might play a role. The  bars and pubs are  traditionally the men's domain: it's a place where you  go to unwind,  speak your mind and be at ease. Any other time, the  barman recognizes  me and greats me with an expletive (I'm sure the other  Balkanians know  exactly what I mean). When I'm with a girl, however,  the tone changes  and we speak in a more refined, lesser dialectal  manner.


It's  right the other way around. Your typical (balkan) male will try to show  off towards the other males when he is in the presence of a female, so  he will act especially more "mangupski".
The only thing that would change is the use of certain expletives that are derogatory towards women. This however, is a worldwide phenomena, and has nothing to do with any dialects whatsoever.



> Whenever you write  something. That's the very purpose of a standard language.


I don't write anything to Macedonians in everyday life.
The only time when I ever have to write something in Macedonian, is when I'm writing with another Skopian.
I write strictly Skopian, and usually get written Skopian back.
This forum is *quite* the exception.



> You've never had to use the standard in Macedonia?


When I had to apply for my citizenship, I had to write a biography.
Well then, this one time in nearly 30 years, I wouldn't call that exactly regularly.



> I'm telling you, most  people would feel uncomfortable or even  look down upon you if you don't  use it in the correct situations.  There's a lot of respect for the  standard language and for those that  know when and how to use  it, but twice as much ridicule for those that  don't.


I think that you are just projecting your own hopes onto the reality.
I  find your statement to be mostly true for immigrant villagers who want  to show that they are "high class" people now that they've moved into  the city.
It's interesting that I have never been in a situation where I was looked down upon in any way.
As I've said before: countless times, over and over again, people tell me how good my Macedonian sounds.
Sometimes  people don't even believe me that I was mostly raised in the  Netherlands, since most emigrants usually speak hilariously bad  Macedonian (odev so karot do partito so moite friendovi, you know what  people I'm talking about).
And I do stick to my dialect vigilantly, so what you are saying just can't be right.



> „Обувка“ не е исто што и „чевел“, односно „легло“ и „кревет“.


Кондура  е се живо што слагам на нога, освен патика. А не сум баш по чизми. Така  да обувка може да се користи кога јас би користел кондура. Ќе сечам  глава кога некој Скопјанец ќе ми рече дека купил обувки.
Легло имам  чуено точно еден пат, што ти е еден пат во цел живот мој. Жената  зборуваше за кревет, затошто гледав да си купам нов кревет за новиот  стан. Нема грешка во тоа.



> Едно е  нешто да звучи смешно, а друго е да звучи претенциозно.  Книжевниот стил секому е помпезен во споредба со колоритниот  народен  јазик.


Можеби не си ме разбрал. Јас викам дека ми е многу  претенциозно кога еден Скопјанец зборејќи со друг Скопјанец користува  книжевен стил.
Книжевниот стил нека си биде за во политиката, или за националните вести, а не за граѓани меѓу себе.
Не  гледам никаква причина за тоа, освен ако е за да покажат дека се  "високи". Тоа ако не е претенциозно, мене нека ме фрлат во Вардар.
Пак ќе кажам дека кога сум на Македонски слави во Холандија, сите таму ми цепат на локални диалекти.
Чоекот  што вика за разликата меѓу Македонија и Бугарија стој: кај нас луѓето  многу строго се држат за родниот диалект, и тоа дури до највисокиот  социален степен, во јавност.

"Никогаш не се говори  „он“ на телевизија, освен како лапсус."
И сега ми даваш потврда дека јазикот на телевизија за мене ми звучи чуден.
Да умрам ако "он" не се кажува барем по 50 пати на ден.



> Тоа никој не ти го оспорува, но  останува дека на останатите граѓани не им е нималку  смешен.


Муабетот ми беше дека за мене ми звучи чудно и смешно, и за други Скопјани сугурно ќе звучи чудно ако јас ќе им зборам така.



> It's equally transitional to both sides = continuum.


Yes, that's what I've been saying.
The  common viewpoints in Bulgaria and Macedonia are quite absolutistic  though, and don't follow any proper borders, except the political ones.
This is common for the entire Balkans ofcourse.



> This is how we are programmed to behave. It would be like demanding a Japanese person not use an honorific.


That is quite a leap you are making...
The  situation here is that a majority of Bulgarians is using its political  weight in order to change the language of subordinate peoples, and these  peoples are just complying, giving up their language without protest.
The  same is happening in the Netherlands, where non-Hollandic people are  replacing their own language by Hollandic. And even though I'm Hollandic  myself; I want them to keep their own language.
It's just a pitiful development in my eyes.


----------



## Bog Svarog

DarkChild said:


> I'm curious as to what you classify as Bulgarian.


Anything that can not be classified as either Shop/Torlak or Macedonian.
To me they speak Bulgarian in Sofia, and definately in Varna, and Burgas, and in Plovdiv.
The Yat-border is a somewhat good guideline, with Sofia being the obvious exception.
But as has been said before: dialects are dying out. I think that I can say only Bulgarian is spoken in Bulgaria, before the time my beard turns grey.



> Because apparently, according to you, we speak some Russified Macedonian. Oh wait, that's what nationalist Macedonians claim.


Bulgarian has a *very* Russian feel to me, regardless of the loanwords. When I hear some people from the most northeastern villages talk, I sometimes get the feeling I'm just listening to a Russian patois with Bulgarian.

Macedonian can only mean two things to me:
1) an ancient Hellenic language, died out.
2) a modern Slavic language, which corresponds to the western variety of Eastern South Slavic. I happen to speak this one.
I fail to see where the "nationalist Macedonian" claim is.


----------



## iobyo

Arath said:


> Pronouncing* поляни, пияни, чаши, шапки* as *полени, пийени, чеши, шепки*;



Would you be able to please tell me more about this, Arath? This is how the most elderly of the elderly speak in my village.

Mods: Maybe my question should be split into a new thread?


----------



## Bog Svarog

iobyo said:


> Would you be able to please tell me more about this, Arath? This is how the most elderly of the elderly speak in my village.
> 
> Mods: Maybe my question should be split into a new thread?


Мислам дека ова е добар пример од поентата ми.
Ти не би рекол ли дека младите кај вас не го користат стариот диалект, заради влијае на книжевниот стил?


----------



## Arath

iobyo said:


> Would you be able to please tell me more about this, Arath? This is how the most elderly of the elderly speak in my village.
> 
> Mods: Maybe my question should be split into a new thread?


This a feature of the Northeastern Bulgarian dialects, the so-called Balkan dialects. In them, the old yat vowel is pronounced either as "*я*", or "*е*", if the following syllable contains "*е*" or "*и*": *голям, големи, бял, бели*.

Due to analogy this pronunciation spread to every stressed *я* vowel or *а*, after *ж, ч, ш*, even if etymologically it wasn't the original yat vowel. So in these dialects they say:

*поляна*, but *полени*
*пиян*, but *пийени*
*Стоян*, but *Стойене*
*жаба*, but *жеби*
*чаша*, but *чеши*
*шапка*, but *шепки*.

I have never heard any living person in Bulgaria use this pronunciation. I learned about it from Stoikov's dialect atlas.


----------



## DarkChild

Arath said:


> This a feature of the Northeastern Bulgarian dialects, the so-called Balkan dialects. In them, the old yat vowel is pronounced either as "*я*", or "*е*", if the following syllable contains "*е*" or "*и*": *голям, големи, бял, бели*.
> 
> Due to analogy this pronunciation spread to every stressed *я* vowel or *а*, after *ж, ч, ш*, even if etymologically it wasn't the original yat vowel. So in these dialects they say:
> 
> *поляна*, but *полени*
> *пиян*, but *пийени*
> *Стоян*, but *Стойене*
> *жаба*, but *жеби*
> *чаша*, but *чеши*
> *шапка*, but *шепки*.
> 
> I have never heard any living person in Bulgaria use this pronunciation. I learned about it from Stoikov's dialect atlas.


I think some old people still talk like that.


----------



## iobyo

Arath said:


> This a feature of the Northeastern Bulgarian  dialects, the so-called Balkan dialects. In them, the old yat vowel is  pronounced either as "*я*", or "*е*", if the following syllable contains "*е*" or "*и*": *голям, големи, бял, бели*.
> 
> Due to analogy this pronunciation spread to every stressed *я* vowel or *а*, after *ж, ч, ш*, even if etymologically it wasn't the original yat vowel. So in these dialects they say:
> 
> *поляна*, but *полени*
> *пиян*, but *пийени*
> *Стоян*, but *Стойене*
> *жаба*, but *жеби*
> *чаша*, but *чеши*
> *шапка*, but *шепки*.
> 
> I have never heard any living person in Bulgaria use this pronunciation.  I learned about it from Stoikov's dialect atlas.



I see. Thank you.

This a little different to how the elderly (70+) speak back home where it's both _чеша _and _чеши_.

If it's of any interest to you, I stumbled across this:



			
				http://books.google.com/books?id=yaBiAAAAMAAJ&q said:
			
		

> На тој ареал не се ретки примери со прегласено |а| во |е| зад (историски) меките консонанти, сп:_ јäска_, _јäгне_,_ јерем_ (Бобошчица), _јесен_, _воденичéр_, _чеша_, _жер_ (Нестрам) и др.





Bog Svarog said:


> Мислам дека ова е добар пример од поентата ми.
> Ти не би рекол ли дека младите кај вас не го користат стариот диалект, заради влијае на книжевниот стил?



The young people still do speak the original dialect, just a few features (such as the one above) have disappeared. I'm guessing it may have become stigmatized as even today when we want to act as a simpleton when joking, we'd speak like this. Of course, general dialect leveling through mass education and so forth also would have played a role.


----------



## yael*

Hi guys! 

Very, very interesting discussion! I enjoyed so much reading it. I don't know anything about Macedonian and Bulgarian dialects to the extent that I often confuse these two languages (I candistinguish them only when written). And I thought that šopski was a dialect of Serbian... I have checked and I know now that I was wrong, but unfortunatelly, I don't know much of Serbian dialects neither. I would love to read a nice discussion about the dialects in BCS too, hopefully this topic will expand westwards... 
I have one question (and it's a bit OT, sorry) - Bog Svarog's story about the citizenship application was interesting and I could understand it easily, but there was this word: "муабет", which was totally new to me. Sounds like a turcism, or orientalism anyway. It is translated as "chat", but I would like to know is it just a slang word or it is used in the formal language? I have never heard it in any BCS dialect, which is a bit strange, especially if it's really a turcism. 

Thank you!

Cheers.


----------



## iobyo

yael* said:


> I have one question (and it's a bit OT, sorry) - Bog Svarog's story about the citizenship application was interesting and I could understand it easily, but there was this word: "муабет", which was totally new to me. Sounds like a turcism, or orientalism anyway. It is translated as "chat", but I would like to know is it just a slang word or it is used in the formal language? I have never heard it in any BCS dialect, which is a bit strange, especially if it's really a turcism.



_Муабетење _is sort of like BCS _ćaskanje_ but used more broadly, so _муабет_ could be synonymous with _говор_, _збор _(= reč), etc. in a given context. It was loaned from Turkish which in turn loaned it from Arabic, if I remember correctly. It is extremely common in everyday language but its use in written texts would be somewhat limited and, of course, avoided altogether in the most formal of texts. I'm guessing BCS might, at least as an archaism, have something like _*muhabet_.


----------



## Bog Svarog

yael* said:


> Hi guys!



Поштовање брате!  



> Very, very interesting discussion! I enjoyed so much reading it. I  don't know anything about Macedonian and Bulgarian dialects to the  extent that I often confuse these two languages (I candistinguish them  only when written).


The average Chinese person would not even be able to distinguish Bulgarian from Slovenian.



> And I thought that šopski was a dialect of Serbian...


Every nationalist of either Serbia, Bulgaria, or Macedonia, will claim that it's a dialect of his respective language.
I have always called it an independant transitional language.



> I don't know much of Serbian dialects neither.


In  Macedonia I once watched a Serbian Torlak tv channel. The show that was  on was about an old woman with supposed psychic powers who would advise  the viewers about everyday issues (she was dressed as a gypsy to make  her look more authentic). It was hilarious beyond words for me... At first I thought it was some sort of comedy show, where the punch line was the mixing of Macedonian and Serbian.
If I  remember correctly, she used *svite* instead of *svi/site*. I still sometimes say svite myself, as a joke. 



> I would love to read a nice discussion about the dialects in BCS too, hopefully this topic will expand westwards...


Same here. Especially Torlak. I'll be quite grateful if anybody could write some examples of it.




> I  have one question (and it's a bit OT, sorry) - Bog Svarog's story about  the citizenship application was interesting and I could understand it  easily, but there was this word: "муабет", which was totally new to me.  Sounds like a turcism, or orientalism anyway. It is translated as  "chat", but I would like to know is it just a slang word or it is used  in the formal language? I have never heard it in any BCS dialect, which  is a bit strange, especially if it's really a turcism.


Over in Macedonia we are *quite* deep into using Turkisms.
I  myself am even an extremity compared to most people, and can sometimes  use Turkish words while there is a very easy and widespread Macedonian  word available (or a Serbian/Latin one).
*Kasapnica* (from Turkish Kasab) for *mesarnica*
Likewise, I'll mostly use *ama* while *no* would be viable.
*Saat* instead of *čas/časovnik/časot*
*Kale* instead of *tvrdina*
*Ćorš/ćuš/**čoš* instead of *agol/ivica*
*Čaršija* instead of *trgovski centar* (not synonymous perse though)
In contrast, I will never say *čifte*, but instead use *par*.
And the list goes on and on and on.....





iobyo said:


> _Муабетење _is sort of like BCS _ćaskanje_ but used more broadly, so _муабет_ could be synonymous with _говор_, _збор _(=  reč), etc. in a given context. It was loaned from Turkish which in turn  loaned it from Arabic, if I remember correctly.


As far as  can be read on the internet, it's supposed to be from Turkish  *muhabbet*, which means "excited small talk", while the original  Arabic meaning is "rich and famous". The original Arabic meaning makes  it understandable how Muhabbet is also used as a Turkish first name.
All quite easy to google ofcourse... 
I'm guessing it stems from *haber* (talk), but could be wrong about that.



> It  is extremely common in everyday language but its use in written texts  would be somewhat limited and, of course, avoided altogether in the most  formal of texts.


Yes, even I won't use it when filling in some document for the government or something along that line.
That should really mean something... ;-)



> I'm guessing BCS might, at least as an archaism, have something like _*muhabet_.


I  wouldn't be surprised if it's quite common amongst the Bosniaks. They  are known to have a "very" positive opinion about anything Turkish.


----------



## iobyo

Bog Svarog said:
			
		

> Same here. Especially Torlak. I'll be quite grateful if anybody could write some examples of it.



The movie _Zona Zamfirova _comes to mind.


----------



## Arath

I think that one of the main reasons that here in Bulgaria we have more dialect levelling is that on our Television we hear almost exclusively Bulgarian speech. All of the foreign TV shows, such as House MD, Grey's Anatomy, all sitcoms, soap operas etc., are dubbed. And it has been like that for quite a while, for as long as I can remember actually. I don't think that's the case in Serbia and Macedonia, where even soap operas are subtitled. I can't imagine a soap opera on Bulgarian TV with subtitles, even the poorest cable TV channel wouldn't broadcast such a thing. The people who dub these shows are voice actors trained in standard Bulgarian. The only programmes using subtitles are feature films (and not all of them). A few years ago they used to air one movie a day, at 20:00 usually, and a few more at weekends. Now, they do that only on weekends, it's very difficult to find a subtitled programme on weekdays.



Bog Svarog said:


> Over in Macedonia we are *quite* deep into using Turkisms.
> I  myself am even an extremity compared to most people, and can  sometimes  use Turkish words while there is a very easy and widespread  Macedonian  word available (or a Serbian/Latin one).
> *Kasapnica* (from Turkish Kasab) for *mesarnica*
> Likewise, I'll mostly use *ama* while *no* would be viable.
> *Saat* instead of *čas/časovnik/časot*
> *Kale* instead of *tvrdina*
> *Ćorš/ćuš/**čoš* instead of *agol/ivica*
> *Čaršija* instead of *trgovski centar* (not synonymous perse though)
> In contrast, I will never say *čifte*, but instead use *par*.
> And the list goes on and on and on.....



Citizens of Macedonia definitely use more Turkish words than citizens of Bulgaria. Nowadays, many of the Turkish words are old-fashioned and used primarily by the older generation.

We do have *касапница*, but it also has the meaning of "massacre, carnage", unlike *месарница*.
We use *ама*, mostly colloquially, and I think it has a slightly different meaning than *но.
Саат, *is not in wide usage at all, I've encountered it only on Macedonian TV, otherwise I wouldn't know what it means.
I know what *кале* and *мухабет* mean, but they are definitely old-fashioned.
*Чаршия* is not equivalent to *търговски център*, but we do use it.
The word *чифт* is not even colloquial, it's the standard word for a pair of something.
*Барем* is a word used by my grandparents, but not by me or my parents. We use *поне* in stead.


----------



## Duya

Bog Svarog said:


> I  wouldn't be surprised if it's quite common amongst the Bosniaks. They  are known to have a "very" positive opinion about anything Turkish.



Coming from Bosnia, and knowing quite a few Turkisms, I don't recognize it. http://www.google.com/search?q=muhabet+site*.ba gives 40 unique hits, mostly from archaic and religious contexts. So, I conclude it is only marginally used among Bosniaks.


----------



## yael*

Well, I will not quote because I am afraid I would mess up my post, I am not familiar with this forum. But I'll try to reply in order.

First of all: sestra, ne brat.  
Poštovanje!

And, what kind of consolation is that? The average chinese doesn't distinguish Russian from Italian... While living and travelling throughout Asia, I was frequently asked questions like: "Is Serbia the same as Syria?" or "Is Serbia in South America?" (I am still trying to figure out what is the country they confused us with).  

I do hope I am not a nationalist, but it's not up to me to judge. My mistake is a result of ignorance, not prejudice (hard to say which one is worse). I am afraid that for the average Serbian, the adjective šopski is strictly related to a salad: šopska (with feta cheese) as opposed to srpska (without cheese), for many years the only possible summer side dishes. 

I have checked in internet too and, yes, "muhabet" is used in Bosnian, though, I don't think so often, because in two years I have spent in Sarajevo, I don't think I have ever heard it... Of course, I might be wrong.  It's not in use in Serbia and that's strange because, although Serbs probably don't have a very "positive" opinion on anything Turkish, they tend to use turcish words abundantly, more often than not, without knowing (personally, I discovered only ten years ago that "kašika" was a turkish word and that came as a surprise).  "Haber" or "aber" is used, but not so often. However, all native speakers are familiar with the word.


I am really sorry, I don't know anything about Torlak dialect.  I have tried to find a good classification of Serbian dialects in internet, but the results were rather disappointing: I found categories like "šumadijsko-vojvođanski dijalekt" and that sounds a too vague, too generic.  I would think that "vojvođanski" is too generic already, let alone put together with "šumadijski". I will have to do a serious research here...  

Uzdravlje!


----------



## iobyo

Arath said:
			
		

> All of the foreign TV shows, such as House MD, Grey's Anatomy, all sitcoms, soap operas etc., are dubbed. And it has been like that for quite a while, for as long as I can remember actually. I don't think that's the case in Serbia and Macedonia, where even soap operas are subtitled.



Almost always subtitled, yes. I can only think of one soap opera from Turkey which is dubbed. Haha, you'll be surprised at how many teenage Serbian and Macedonian girls speak conversational Spanish because of the South American soaps.



			
				Arath said:
			
		

> *Чаршия* is not equivalent to *търговски център*, but we do use it.



_Чаршија_ in the meaning _трговски центар _is very, very odd because almost every larger city has an Ottoman _чаршија _(even Kruševo).


----------



## yael*

I can't quote, for technical reasons, so in reply to iobyo - Zona Zamfirova is niški dialect, I don't think that's considered torlak. 
Many years ago I went to Bujanovac (Southern Serbia, near Preševo), I was still a child.  I remember that people spoke in a dialect that was really very hard to understand.  I dare to say that it was easier to understand Macedonian.  Can that be Torlak?  It should be also spoken in Kosovo but, for what I know, the Serbs in Kosovo usually speak standard Serbian.


----------



## DenisBiH

I at least am familiar with muhabetiti. It's similar in meaning to eglen(d)isati.  

On the other hand, I'm also familiar with the (I presume) Dalmatian ćakulati, so it may be more of a literary exposure.

Now, unlike either of those first two Orientalisms, mahalati is very much used today for people chatting where I live, but with the added meaning of "to gossip".


EDIT: Here's a nice example of the literary use of _muhabet _from 1898, by Branislav Nušić:



> Tako pred veče, a tako i po večeri. Koliko je puta o ramazanu odsjedio  na ovome sidžadetu po cijele noći, pušeći i zabavljajući se gustim  dimom, razmišljajući i udišući meki miris, koji pušta lipa, što se u  bahči razgranala.  Sjedne tu na sidžade, kod njegovih nogu, i hanuma mu  Atije po koji put, pa razvezu muhabet o svijetu, o godini, o ćesatluku  .... Dok oni tako na doksatu, a u bahči nazli-Đulsime, mjezimica  Hadži-Abduševa, obilazi cvijeće...



Times do change, the words _sidžade_, _ćesatluk_ and _doksat_ are not familiar to me. Unless _sidžade _in fact means _se(r)džada_.


----------



## Bog Svarog

iobyo said:


> Almost always subtitled, yes. I can only think of one soap opera from Turkey which is dubbed. Haha, you'll be surprised at how many teenage Serbian and Macedonian girls speak conversational Spanish because of the South American soaps.


You should meet my aunt-in-law. 67 year old Kumanovka, and *will not miss one single episode of any Hispanic Soap*, so help her god.
By the way: although I never catch her speaking Kumanovski (except for some very rare slipups), she is quite hardcore when it comes to the use of the vocative in particular, and the *do/so/kaj [name]+a* construction (I can't recall the English name for this).
I've actually copied this from her in my speech. 



> _Чаршија_ in the meaning _трговски центар _is very, very odd because almost every larger city has an Ottoman _чаршија _(even Kruševo).


Yes, it is very odd.
If I get called on my phone while walking in the _трговски центар_, I couldn't say I'm in the _чаршија_, because чаршија has somewhat fossilized into a meaning of_ Турски трговски центар._ More precisely the authentic Turkish shopping centres that are leftovers from Ottoman times. Anything modern would automatically be a trgovski centar.
However, if I met somebody in person in the _трговски центар_, and get greeted with_ "шо праиш бе?"_, I could reply_ "__у чашија __шетам бе"_.
My wordplay would be obvious, and I would be understood. Though it would require me to accompany it with a funny look on my face, or I might get "corrected". ;-)
What's important though, is that a чаршија *is* by default a _трговски центар_, and a Turkish word at the same time.

EDIT: I could imagine somebody being interviewed about the Turska Čaršija in Skopje. It should be possible for the interviewee to say "I think that our čaršija is a very nice trgovski centar" or "the čaršija is my favourite trgovski centar of Skopje". Maybe not likely, but certainly not outlandish. In any way, this would sound less outlandish to me than when hearing *toj* being used as a pronoun. ;-)


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## DenisBiH

Somewhat off-topic, but it could be interesting to contrast with the Macedonian usage - I must say I don't really associate Bosnian _čaršija_ with (_turski) trgovinski centar_. For me _čaršija_ can be the old Ottoman center in Sarajevo or any other city/town that has it. In some cases I could even use it simply for "city center", Ottoman or not. Of course, it has the added meaning of "people from čaršija" (as in "_Čaršija priča da_...").

My Bosnian dictionary seems to agree with me:



> čaršija im. ž. r. (perz.) - dio grada koji je društveni, proizvodni, zanatski i trgovački centar; prenes. ljudi i njihov uticaj na razvoj političkog i društvenog života.


The word I associate the most with_ turski trgovinski centar_ would be, at least in Sarajevo, _bezistan_.


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## iobyo

DenisBiH said:


> Somewhat off-topic, but it could be interesting to contrast with the Macedonian usage - I must say I don't really associate Bosnian _čaršija_ with (_turski) trgovinski centar_. For me _čaršija_ can be the old Ottoman center in Sarajevo or any other city/town that has it. In some cases I could even use it simply for "city center", Ottoman or not. Of course, it has the added meaning of "people from čaršija" (as in "_Čaršija priča da_...").
> 
> My Bosnian dictionary seems to agree with me:
> 
> 
> The word I associate the most with_ turski trgovinski centar_ would be, at least in Sarajevo, _bezistan_.



That's precisely how I use the Macedonian _чаршија_ (even with the added meaning) but _трговски центар _is, at least in everyday use, usually only those modern multistory malls.

In Bitola, the _безистен_ is just that.


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## yael*

Bezistan exists in Belgrade as well, but it's actually a proper noun (the passage connecting Terazije with Marx & Engels Square).  The term čaršija is used in the same way as in Bosnian and Macedonian - "centro storico" as Italians would say, but it is not used so often. Even less used with the added meaning. 

Denis(e), englendisati and mahalati are so funny and so nice, I heard them before, but forgot completely - will start to use them again!!! Hvala!


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## DarkChild

In Bulgarian чаршия  has an archaic meaning of marketplace. It is used mostly in a historical sense.
I have also heard безистен but I don't know what it means.


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## !netko!

This thread's been very eye-opening for me. I had no idea dialects were considered a thing of shame in Bulgaria. I find that quite sad. What is the position of non-standard accents in Bulgarian society?


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## Bog Svarog

!netko! said:


> This thread's been very eye-opening for me. I had no idea dialects were considered a thing of shame in Bulgaria. I find that quite sad. What is the position of non-standard accents in Bulgarian society?


Puno pozdrav ;-)


I'm not the ideal person to be answering this question, but I do have a girlfriend from Sofia, so I can throw in a little fact of interest.

My girlfriend talks her native Sofian to about any Bulgarian she encounters, and I haven't seen her receive any negativity as a result of that.


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## DarkChild

!netko! said:


> This thread's been very eye-opening for me. I had no idea dialects were considered a thing of shame in Bulgaria. I find that quite sad. What is the position of non-standard accents in Bulgarian society?


I wouldn't say it's a shameful thing but its definitely not looked upon well when people on national television speak "regionally". Same with accents. In Eastern Bulgaria people tend to palatalize consonants and reduce vowels. It's definitely not looked upon well if people aren't able to control it when speaking outside of their circle of family and friends. Same with Western dialects where they can't pronounce soft L and change word stress. All in all, Standard Bulgarian is what's socially encouraged. There's no law for it, it's just the way society is. Of course, its not possible for everyone to speak the same way, but as far as no extremes are present in your speech, you should be fine.


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## DarkChild

Bog Svarog said:


> My girlfriend talks her native Sofian to about any Bulgarian she encounters, and I haven't seen her receive any negativity as a result of that.


What negativity did you expect? Obviously, no one is going to beat her up for speaking the way she is, but they might be jumping to conclusions in their minds about her.


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## Bog Svarog

DarkChild said:


> Same with Western dialects where they can't pronounce soft L and change word stress.


Can't? You mean *don't*. 

My  girlfriend *can* say "molja", but she just says "mola".  Well...actually she says "mowa", but that's a different story. 

Believe me, I *can* say *рацете*, but i just prefer to say *руките*, because this is how I've been talking since I was 2 years old, and makes me feel more comfortable.



DarkChild said:


> What negativity did you expect?





> they might be jumping to conclusions in their minds about her.


Does your own answer answer your answer?


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## DarkChild

Bog Svarog said:


> Can't? You mean *don't*.
> 
> My  girlfriend *can* say "molja", but she just says "mola".  Well...actually she says "mowa", but that's a different story.


That's not what I meant. I'm talking about for example лев being pronounced with a hard Л, it sounds something like уев, but it isn't у, it's the same л  as in локва. 



> Believe me, I *can* say *рацете*, but i just prefer to say *руките*, because this is how I've been talking since I was 2 years old, and makes me feel more comfortable.


The correct word is ръцете.




> Does your own answer answer your answer?


No, because you really don't know what people are thinking.


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## Arath

Bog Svarog said:


> Puno pozdrav ;-)
> 
> 
> I'm not the ideal person to be answering this question, but I do have a girlfriend from Sofia, so I can throw in a little fact of interest.
> 
> My girlfriend talks her native Sofian to about any Bulgarian she encounters, and I haven't seen her receive any negativity as a result of that.



If you mean the one who says "чуеш ли защо ти збора(м)?". If a young Bulgarian person speaks like that (which I strongly doubt) he or she will be laughed at.


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## Bog Svarog

DarkChild said:


> The correct word is ръцете.


Says who? You?
There is no such thing as a "correct" pronunciation.

I'd also have to "correct" you now, as it's *рацете* in Standard Macedonian, and not *ръцете*. On top of that, in my dialect it's *руките*, so you aren't making any sense with your "correction" whatsoever.



> No, because you really don't know what people are thinking.


Yes, and no, because people often act on a basis of their thoughts. This acting also reflects into facial expressions and what not.



Arath said:


> If a young Bulgarian person speaks like that  (which I strongly doubt) he or she will be laughed at.


I still have to see that happening. To be honest, I think that you are just projecting your own desire onto reality.
And on top of that: if some pretentious snob does laugh at her, it will do nothing but show her how limited he is mentally, which in the end is only a bad portrayal of himself, not her.

You might also want to pay more attention to what you are reading, and to what you are exactly commenting.
I quite clearly stated that she said this line *to me*, and for the rest I just hear her talking Sofian to other Bulgarians.


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## Arath

Bog Svarog said:


> I still have to see that happening. To be honest, I think that you are just projecting your own desire onto reality.
> And on top of that: if some pretentious snob does laugh at her, it will do nothing but show her how limited he is mentally, which in the end is only a bad portrayal of himself, not her.



I'm not projecting anything. I'm stating facts. "чуеш ли защо ти збора(м)?" is such an odd and ungrammatical sentence, which is even unintelligible to most Bulgarians, that anyone who uses it will be ridiculed. In Bulgaria, people who adhere strictly to their local traditional dialects are viewed as uneducated, unintelligent and even aggressive and inhospitable, because they use vocabulary which is unknown to speakers from other parts of the country. As a result of that there has been considerable dialect levelling and young people speak in a way which is very different from the way their grandparents speak. This isn't my opinion or projection. It's fact. You can ask other native speakers in this forum. I can provide you with videos where people make fun of local dialects on national TV, but it takes over a week to get permission.



Bog Svarog said:


> You might also want to pay more attention to what you are reading, and to what you are exactly commenting.
> I quite clearly stated that she said this line *to me*, and for the rest I just hear her talking Sofian to other Bulgarians.



Can I have a more elaborate description of the way she speaks?


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## Bog Svarog

Arath said:


> I can provide you with videos where people make fun of local dialects on national TV,


No need for that to be honest, as I've seen enough of those videos.
Last one I saw was about the Bulgarian Big Brother Family, and they had a voice over laughing at some dialects being used.
Needless to say: I didn't think that it was funny at all.



> Can I have a more elaborate description of the way she speaks?


Well, it's not like I'm going to carry around a notebook and write down what she says (sorry...).

You should keep in mind that I speak exclusively Skopian to her, and when listening to her, I automatically translate what she says and thusly register it in my own language.
Henceforth, when I have to recall something that she said, I usually recall it in Macedonian words.
The only time when I recall her exact phrasing is when I find it particulary peculiar or strikingly different from what I hear from most other Bulgarians, like "miwo", "she", "ruzhna" and so forth.


On a side note: I wonder if the average Bulgarian would understand me if I'd say *кой брой кондури носиш?*?


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## Arath

Bog Svarog said:


> On a side note: I wonder if the average Bulgarian would understand me if I'd say *кой брой кондури носиш?*?


 I don't know what "*кондури**"* means but I deduce it's some sort of clothing, trousers perhaps, and the question is about the size.


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## DarkChild

Bog Svarog said:


> The only time when I recall her exact phrasing is when I find it particulary peculiar or strikingly different from what I hear from most other Bulgarians, like "*miwo*", "*she*", "ruzhna" and so forth.


Neither of these two is "strikingly different". Both are very wide-spread. Ruzhna - I don't even know what that means.


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## Kartof

I'm from eastern Bulgaria and speak standard Bulgarian. Often, I simply don't want to make the effort to say ще so I say ше instead.  I certainly don't speak any dialect...it just feels more comfortable to drop that 'т'-sound in informal speech.


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## !netko!

Thanks, everyone who replied. I know very little about Bulgarian, and the dialectal variety and dialect levelling within Bulgarian, so I'm finding this thread very interesting


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## Transatlantic

Arath said:


> I'm not projecting anything. I'm stating facts. "чуеш ли защо ти збора(м)?" is such an odd and ungrammatical sentence, which is even unintelligible to most Bulgarians, that anyone who uses it will be ridiculed.



Linguistically speaking, "ли збора(м) чуеш защо ти?" would be ungrammatical, as it is mere word soup. The string "чуеш ли защо ти збора(м)?" could not possibly be ungrammatical, as it is formed in accordance with a native speaker's internal mental grammar. All you can say about is that it diverges from the standard. 

I find the ridiculing of dialects terribly bad manners, profoundly undemocratic, likely malicious, and, ultimately, kind of sad.


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## Arath

Transatlantic said:


> Linguistically speaking, "ли збора(м) чуеш защо ти?" would be ungrammatical, as it is mere word soup. The string "чуеш ли защо ти збора(м)?" could not possibly be ungrammatical, as it is formed in accordance with a native speaker's internal mental grammar. All you can say about is that it diverges from the standard.
> 
> I find the ridiculing of dialects terribly bad manners, profoundly undemocratic, likely malicious, and, ultimately, kind of sad.



Easy to saying from person, being lived in English-speaking society. English language not has many grammar diversity, despite it be speaked all around globe. It do has much accents, but no big grammar differences.

"Чуеш ли що ти збора(м)" is ungrammatical in standard Bulgarian, because the verb "чуя" is perfective and perfective verbs can't normally stand alone in independent clauses in the present tense. It just sounds bad.


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## osemnais

Bulgarian dialects are definately live and kicking, although they dont get used in big cities and media. In smaller cities and towns they are used regularly and do hear them used every now and then.


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## iobyo

Bog Svarog said:


> On a side note: I wonder if the average Bulgarian would understand me if I'd say *кой брой кондури носиш?*?



Probably not the average Bulgarian, but I think they have a variant as a regionalism (I've heard _кундурка_). Seems even BCS has it.



Arath said:


> I don't know what "*кондури**"* means but I deduce it's some sort of clothing, trousers perhaps, and the question is about the size.



Shoes (> Turkish _kundura_).


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## yael*

iobyo said:


> Probably not the average Bulgarian, but I think they have a variant as a regionalism (I've heard _кундурка_). Seems even BCS has it.


Never heard that word before...


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## trosheniorasi

DarkChild said:


> What negativity did you expect? Obviously, no one is going to beat her up for speaking the way she is, but they might be jumping to conclusions in their minds about her.



I second that! I avoid speaking in dialect because when I speak to people from other parts of the country, using words like дека (where), оти (why), он (he), сакам (want) they look at me like I am a stupid villager. Sometimes I do it for fun though


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## dopehooks

I came here hoping to read about the South Slavic dialect continuum, only to find myself reading 4 pages about Bulgarian and Macedonian. This thread should be renamed to "The Bulgarian-Macedonian divide"


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