# Watashi ga ogoru wa yo



## Cereth

hola!

I was having dinner with a male friend and I wanted to say that the dinner was on me, so I just remembered the verb "oguro"..So I said "watashi ha ogoru"...
He corrected me and said that it is better to say : _watashi ga ogoru wa yo_, he said it sounded sexy.

So, last week was another friend´s birthday and I said this phrase to him, suddenly his face became red and said : hazukashii... (at the beginning I thought he felt that way because I was going to pay for him, but he confirmed that my choice of words were very rare for him)....and he said more things but I couldn´t understand... at the end he said: from now on is better if you say _"watashi ga ogoru yo_"

Why do you natives think? ... What is the difference between those sentences for you?is it wrong to use "wa"...
If I say:  samui wa yo!, does it sound bad too?
Please explain.

Muchas gracias.


----------



## Eso

I'm no expert on the particle "wa" but I personally feel as if the particle gives the sentence a more "feminine" feel to it.

Now, to break down that sentence. I think the combination of "ga" and "wa" together sounded 'sexy' so when you said that to your other friend, he was probably embarassed that you said it in such a tone. The "ga" made it so that you personally will "ogoru" and the "wa" gave it a more feminine feel.

If none of what I just wrote made any sense, just remember that the first friend said it sounded sexy if you said it that way. If that is so, then saying something like that to another friend will have that kind of an effect.


----------



## yamada

Judging from the two of said expressions, your good terms with your friends can be detected. 
I think the latter expression would indicate closer assosiation, but these expressions would provide different impressions depending upon the intonation, 
and by adding 'wa' the aggressiveness could be expressed to demonstrate that you are insisting on your payment. 
At any rate in view of the politeness they would not be recommendable, so that you might want to say in the form of a question, for example:
watashi ni ogorasete moraeru?
or in an imperative sentence:
watashi ni ogorasete (ne). 'ne' is optional.


----------



## Flaminius

Particle _-wa_ is a modal that serves functions similar to _-yo_, that is, adding emotional touch to the sentence.  It is used by women, so it is part of feminine speech.  Note that -_wa_ cannot be used in place of _-yo_ when it is used cohortatively (*たべるわ as opposed to たべるよ, Let's eat; *たべてわ as opposed to たべてよ, Please do eat).

わたしがおごるよ／わ
This is the simplest way to say, "I will treat you."  A woman can use both _-yo_ and _-wa_ but the latter sounds more feminine.

わたしがおごるわよ
Compared to the sentence above, this one implies the speaker is more insistent on paying the bill for the interlocutor.  As both わ and よ are used to intensify declarative sentences, double intensification may at times sound too strong.  I would need a time machine and telepathy to find out what exactly caused your friend to blush and say, "hazukashii" but _-wayo_ may have sounded too insistent for him on that occasion.


----------



## cheshire

語気助詞「わ」が女っぽいことは_殿方_のおっしゃるとおりまったく正しい_わ_！それと、それが廃れつつあることもしておかなく_っちゃ_ね。

First off, neither "watashi *wa* ogoru yo" nor "watashi *wa* ogoru wa" sound right. Using "wa" places focus (topicalization) on "watashi," where the topic should be in fact on "the dinner." I'd think you'll have no problem with such sentences that both have "ga" and "wa" in one clause, but those with only "ga" in one clause must be tough to deal with. To help you overcome that, I sugest you look for the possible, unmentioned topic that could be attached by "-wa." In this particular case, you've first got this sentence "watashi *ga *ogoru yo." What would be the topic of this sentence? "konkai no ryouri *wa*" "konkai no shokuji *wa*" "konkai no nomikai *wa*" would all be possible. 

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=320946&highlight=&#12521;&#12486;&#12531;&#35486;

As for "wa yo" being too feminine or even sexy, that's right. "-wa" has been fading away like an old soldier! 今キャンディキャンディの歌を歌ったら誰もが赤面することは間違いないわ！Cereth さん、 why don't you remember and sing "the theme for Candy-Candy" for him as a birthday present? 


> Particle _-wa_ is a modal that serves functions similar to _-yo_, that is, adding emotional touch to the sentence. It is used by women, so it is part of feminine speech. _Note that -wa cannot be used in place of -yo when it is used cohortatively (*たべるわ as opposed to たべるよ, Let's eat; *たべてわ as opposed to たべてよ, Please do eat).
> _


というより「わ」は連体形のみにつき、「よ」は連体形でも連用形のどちらにもつくことができるんでしょう。

On additional note, the particle の is very similar in both usage and function to わ, and it's more alive than わ, though it's also fading away. 

皆さんとこうして文法、用法について語れるのは光栄だわ。私のお気に入りのフォーラムなの。


----------



## Flaminius

Nitpicker in full action....



cheshire said:


> 語気助詞　終助詞「わ」が女っぽいことは_殿方_のおっしゃるとおりまったく正しい_わ_！それと、それが廃れつつあることも指摘しておかなく_っちゃ_ね。



個人的には語気助詞という名称でもいいと思いますが、国語文法では終助詞と呼びます。完結した命題構造の後に付いて、情報内容を、発言として相手に持ち掛けるその持ち掛け方を制御するからです。日本語文法でなんというのかはちょっと度忘れしました。吹毛求疵のつもりではなく、このスレッドから更に進んで自分で参考資料にあたる人のために、ね。



> というより「わ」は連体形のみにつき、「よ」は連体形でも連用形のどちらにもつくことができるんでしょう。


そういえたら、単純になっていいのですが、「わ」つきの終止形（「静かだわ」であり、「静かなわ」でないことから、「わ」は終止形に接続するのでしょう）では「よ」のもつ命令と勧誘の中間にあるような機能を行使できません。
さあ座って座って、ご飯たべるよ。
*さあ座って座って、ご飯たべるわ。

結構気合を入れて書きましたわ。<--- Low accent on _-wa_.


----------



## cheshire

終止形とかを指摘してくれてうれしいわ！

確かに、終助詞「わ」は終止形につくんだわ。でね、その理由を考えてみたってわけ。
大辞泉によると、終助詞「わ」は係助詞の「は」に由来する。Yahoo 辞書で見れるわけだけど、その４番目の定義（感動・詠嘆）から由来したと思います。それは文末に位置し、「...なことよ」と訳せます。

....ありける*は*！　（なんと尻尾が優雅な*こと*よ！）

「こと」に注目したいのですが、これはいわゆる「体言　maker」です。そう解釈していいように思います。体言を作る他の助詞は思いつくのは「と」と「の」と「や」です。どれも終止形につくようです。

私の推理はどうかしら？


----------



## Cereth

Eeto....I didn´t understand your discussion written in kanji... 
However... I´ll sing Candy´s song for my friend Cheshire-cat, thanks !!!

Ureshii wa yo !


----------



## Hiro Sasaki

In Kansai, わ　is not exclusively a feminine expression. For example,
あかんわ。

In Kanto, だめだわ　can be said by a man, but its intonation is different
from the feminine expresion of だめだわ and a man will never say
だめだわよ　except "maricones " ( in Spanish ).

Hiro Sasaki


----------



## Cereth

Hiro-san, Do you know any link where I can listen to that entonation?

Another question, You say "Damedawayo" sounds "gayish" in Kanto, but that sounds gay also in another regions of Japan?


----------



## Hiro Sasaki

Cereth said:


> Hiro-san, Do you know any link where I can listen to that entonation?
> 
> Cereth san, I don't know any fonetic link for Kansai dialect. Sorry,
> I'm a pasokon onchi. I' dont know how to speak on internet. There is
> a slight difference of nuance in the meaming also between the
> Kanto だめだわ　and Kansai あかんわ　which is more rich in its connotations
> depending on the context.
> 
> Another question, You say "Damedawayo" sounds "gayish" in Kanto, but that sounds agy also in another regions of Japan?


I'm not an authority on many regional dialects, but as far as I suppose,
だめだわよ　will not be spoken by men in any region.

In the case of "Watashi ga ogoruwa yo", with "yo" added, it means 
"It's my turn to pay for xxx " ( Me toca pagar esta vez, no, tu no debes pagar ). Usually, men will pay when they go out eating, as is the
same in Spanish America and therefore, we can rarely hear it spoken.
When two or more women eat together, one girl my say so.If a woman
says " Watashi ga ogoru wa yo" to his boyfriend, it may hurt his 
feeling and he would consider you as a pushy woman. 

" Boku ga oguru yo " is more commonly heard.

Hiro Sasaki


----------



## Aoyama

> _watashi ga ogoru wa yo_, he said it sounded sexy.





> だめだ*わよ*　will not be said by men in any region


The ending *wa yo *is unusual but definitely exclusively feminine, if it is used. 
Now, is saying _ogoru wa yo _sexy or rather is the fact that a woman saying to a Japanese male friend "it's my treat" (men are supposed to pay in Japan, as we know) _sounds_ sexy because of an inversion of roles ... Well ...


----------



## Pearl-Man

I think another colloquial way you can respond in this situation is to simply say;
'Atashi no ogori de...' while grabbing the check. I have heard men replace the pronoun with their name as well, finishing it with 'da yo' when with friends.
Just my 2 cents. It has been more than a decade...


----------



## Hiro Sasaki

An decent woman should say : " Kondo wa washashi ni  harawasete(kudasai) " .


"watashi ga oguruwa yo" is rarely heard because few women are so 
pushy and bossy. 

Hiro Sasaki


----------



## Cereth

Pushy and bossy?????

Oh God!!!!
That is not pushy or bossy, being a woman and saying that you pay in a special ocassion  means you care for the other person...that you want to do a gift for him/her.....

  ´I am a decent woman and I said that phrase....
I feel so sad now...


----------



## cheshire

Don't worry, Cereth, some suggestions made here are based on 'traditional' values, if not sexist.
Rest assured, "ogoruwayo" won't make anyone feel it's pushy or bossy.


----------



## Hiro Sasaki

Cereth said:


> Pushy and bossy?????
> 
> Oh God!!!!
> That is not pushy or bossy, being a woman and saying that you pay in a special ocassion means you care for the other person...that you want to do a gift for him/her.....
> 
> ´I am a decent woman and I said that phrase....
> I feel so sad now...


 
Cereth san, have't you noticed several comments by those who are 
not native speakers but are well-informed of the the Japanese traditions 
and the language ? The language is the culture and the tradition.
You can express what you think in other ways than " Watashiwa
ogoru wa yo". It depends on the tone of the remark,  and also on whether 
it is addressed to a man or woman, but  "Watashi wa ogoruwayo 
if sopken by a woman, it sounds harsh. But, don't worry, we are 
tolerant with the improper expressions of foreigners.


But, the proper ways of saying are :

1. Itsumo harawashite bakari de kinodokudawa. Kondo wa watashi ni
harawashite kudasai. 

2. Kondo wa watashi ni harawashite kudasai.

3. Kyo wa watashi ni harawasete kudasai.

The verb "Ogoru" is addressed to an iqual or your inferiors.

You had better not insist to pay strongly. Let him pay and say
"Gochiso sama deshita".  You are insisting to pay by any means 
with the remark " Watashi wa ogoruwayo ".

Hiro Sasaki


----------



## cheshire

Hiro Sasaki, you're unwittingly (I hope!) suffocating the creative potential of Japanese language, making it seem rigid, unimaginative and boring.
Putting down your version of exemplary sentences is fine, but do you ever wonder if you might have failed to offer advice on how it's done for learners to reproduce sentences?


----------



## Hiro Sasaki

cheshire said:


> Hiro Sasaki, you're unwittingly (I hope!) suffocating the creative potential of Japanese language, making it seem rigid, unimaginative and boring.
> Putting down your version of exemplary sentences is fine, but do you ever wonder if you might have failed to offer advice on how it's done for learners to reproduce sentences?


 
With a little imagination, a native can undestand what connotations 
" Watashiwa ogorouwayo " means and I have noted that some people who
are not  native have undestood it. Anyone not always is correct and so
I am opened mineded to any contraditions to my remarks.


Hiro Sasaki


----------



## Hiro Sasaki

Cereth said:


> Pushy and bossy?????
> 
> Oh God!!!!
> That is not pushy or bossy, being a woman and saying that you pay in a special ocassion means you care for the other person...that you want to do a gift for him/her.....
> 
> ´I am a decent woman and I said that phrase....
> I feel so sad now...


 
Cereth san, calm down.! I know already know  what you are. A couple of 
personal mails have been exchanged already. I have not written anywhere
that you are an indecent woman. Do you want me to say already 
that your Japanese is splendid ? 

Hiro Sasaki


----------

