# -seru, causative



## ThomasK

I do not speak Japanese at all, but I happened to learn that this suffix refers to causative verbs. Now that is a phenomenon I am interested in.

My question is: could you give me some examples of that or - even better - refer to a website where I can find them all (with the translation)?

Thanks a lot!


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## frequency

Then Weblio?
(Sa)seru (Dictionary page)
(Sa)seru (Examples)

The examples in the pages are written in Japanese, so they may look difficult for you. If they're not sufficient, let us know.


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## ThomasK

Thank you very much indeed. The list of examples makes me wonder: is it not a productive suffix that you can use freely. I mean: do you need a dictionary to understand these causatives? Is it not a little like "It rains > I make it rain", but of course in Japanese it is some kind of a lexical suffix, maybe a grammatical phenomenon?

If I may: in Japanese the causative form is based on the "stative" then. I just read that in (West) Germanic languages the grammatical causative form ("fell a tree", make it fall) gave rise to the stative, so that it strictly speaking comes first. I am quite astonished, as I thought the descriptive non-personal subject verb (The tree falls, the bread rises, ...) would be the oldest. Would you agree to say that the stative form is the basis of the causative?


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## frequency

Well, Japanese _-seru_ and _-saseru_ are categorized as auxiliary verb, in the Japanese grammar.
I'm not sure if I can answer your question though, for example,
Taberu (to eat, bare infinitive) _Tabe saseru_ ― "ru" drops off.
Yomu (to read, bare infinitive)  _Yoma seru_ ― "yomu" conjugates to "yoma".

As you can see above, we need to use _saseru_ and _seru_ separately. But sorry I don't know about the difference between _saseru_ and _seru_. I hope a member who is more familiar with it comes to this thread.

We don't need a dictionary to understand causatives.


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## citrustree

Hi,

My understanding is that depending on the verb conjugation type, you attach either -seru or -saseru. You conjugate the verb into 'mizen-kei' and then attach the auxiliary verb, -seru or -saseru. 

For (1)'godankatsuyou' verbs and (2)'sagyouhenkakukatsuyou' verbs, you use -seru. 
For (3)'shimoichidankatsuyou' verbs, (4)'kamiichidankatsuyou' verbs and (5)'kagyouhenkakukatsuyou' verbs, you use -saseru. 

We, native Japanese speakers, know which of the two to use without thinking about the conjugation etc. I guess that's true of the native speakers of any language.  

examples:

(1) utawa-seru - to make (someone) sing
(2) sa-seru -to make (someone) do
(3) wasure-saseru - to make (someone) forget
(4) mi-saseru - to make (someone) see
(5) ko-saseru - to make (someone) come


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## Nino83

Hello, Thomask.


ThomasK said:


> in Japanese it is some kind of a lexical suffix


In Japanese there are pairs of intransitive and transitive verbs, like 閉まる (shimaru, to close, intransitive) and　閉める (shimeru, to close something, transitive), _the door closes_　ドルが閉まる and _I close the door_　ドルを閉める, while in English often they don't change form.
These pairs are somewhat "closed" or "lexically determined", i.e you cannot simply take an intransitive verb, change the vowel of the stem from "a" to "e" and create a new transitive verb.


ThomasK said:


> The list of examples makes me wonder: is it not a productive suffix that you can use freely.


As for _-(sa)seru_, it is an auxiliar verb (or modal verb, if you prefer), it is productive and you can use it to form a causative sentence (where there is a causer and a causee) but not to transform an intransitive verb into a transitive one.

*John goes to school *_=>_* I make John go to school 
John wa gakkō e iku *_=>_* (Watashi wa) John ni/o gakkō e ikaseru 
John reads a book *_=>_* I make John read a book 
John wa hon o yomu *_=>_* (Watashi wa) John ni hon o yomaseru*

The causer takes the "nominative" case (ga, wa, depending on the context) and the causee the "dative" case (ni).

As for the conjugation, there are basically two types of verbs in Japanese, _ichidan_ and _godan_. For the former you take off _-ru_ and add _-saseru_ (_taberu => tabesaseru_), for the latter you have to use the form used for the negative conjugation (_yomu = I read, yom*a*nai_ = I don't read) and add _-seru _(_yom*a*seru_). This, because _-(sa)seru_ takes this form.

crossposted with citrustree


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## frequency

Nino83 said:


> the negative conjugation (_yomu = I read, yom*a*nai_ = I don't read) and add _-seru _(_yom*a*seru_). This, because _-(sa)seru_ takes this form.


Yes, the conjugation is the result when you add the auxiliary verb _seru_ or _saseru_ to a verb. (Including from _taberu_ to _tabe_.)


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## ThomasK

This is very valuable information, thank you, and I guess I'd appreciate it even more if I were a real expert in morphology and knew Japanese.

@Nino83: There is one thing I wonder about while reading the translations. Do you also use lexical phrases like "to encourage", "to incite", etc.? I guess that you do and that the underlying meaning is similar (someone exerting some pressure) but that the lexical verbs specify the way pressure is exerted. In that sense there would be a real parallel - when forgetting about the Japanese aux. status - between the two forms, i.e., the"make"/ "ru" & seaseru" aux. as opposed to causation expressed lexically. Or do you think English "make" and Japanese "ru" & "saseru" are quite distinct?


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## Nino83

Hi, frequency! Yes, you're right, I forgot to say that also with _ichidan_ verbs _saseru_ takes the _mizenkei_, even if the _ichidan_ stem doesn't change. 


ThomasK said:


> In that sense there would be a real parallel - when forgetting about the Japanese aux. - between the"make"/ "ru" & seaseru" aux. as opposed to causation expressed lexically.


It seems to me (I'd wait for a native speaker to confirm) that _(sa)seru_ is similar to the English verb _make_ and to the Romance verb _fare, faire, hacer, fazer_. It is a "general" verb. If you want to specify the type of pressure (demand, order, and so on) you can use other lexical verbs.
You can also see that the construction is very similar in Japanese and Romance languages, _far fare qualcosa a qualcuno_ (lit. make do something to someone, i.e make + verb + "accusative" + "dative") and _dareka ni nanika o sa-seru_ (lit. to someone something do-make, in the opposite order).


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## Nino83

It is so general that it can mean also "let someone do something" (this is true also for the Romance verb _fare, faire, hacer, fazer_, for example in Italian _fare_ (make) in the appropriate context can mean also _lasciare_ (let) or_ permettere, consentire_ (allow)).


> Note:  If the person is willing to do something, it means  ~させる( = saseru) could also means “to let someone do something.”


from this site (it's a useful site with many examples that help you understand idiomatic uses):
*Kodomo ni kyanpu ni ikaseru*. (Japanese)
*Faccio andare il bambino in campeggio*. (Italian)
These sentences can mean both _I make my kid go camping_ (for example he doesn't want to go there and their parents oblige him to go) and _I let(/allow) my kid (to) go camping_ (the kid wants to go there and their parents allow him to go).


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