# Male and Female teachers



## emma42

Hello everyone.  In the Thread "Male female relationships nowadays" the conversation has been turning to the matter of male and female teachers and some disparity in numbers.

Some forer@s are bemoaning the fact that, in their countries, there are too few male teachers.  In England, there are very few male teachers at elementary level,  but lots at secondary level.

What is the situation in your country and how do you feel about it?  Does the sex of a teacher have a notable effect on students?  Is your government trying to address any disparity?  Are there, for instance, more female teachers in art and more male in sciences?


----------



## GenJen54

My problem is not so much the gender of the teachers. It is the qualification of the teachers. 

Sadly, in my state, where budget shortfalls for education are commonplace, many of the male teachers are not hired as teachers, but as sports coaches. They are then asked to teach some class (social studies, history, English among them) in order for the budget to balance. 

This happened at the high school I attended, as well, although I only encountered a male coach-as-teacher in one class.

I think the general trend, however, remains the same. The majority of elementary teachers are female. Then by the time high school arrives, approximately 20-25% of the teachers are male. In the school I attended, the male teachers primarily taught the advanced mathematics and science classes, although one of our fine arts teachers was also male. 

As to your other questions, I don't think our government (schools are run primarily by each state) cares much about the disparity. They are trying to balance their budget, which is why it is not uncommon to see teachers pulling double-duty as sports coaches...or in my state, sports coaches pulling double-duty as teachers. 

On a personal aside, I struggled in math my entire school career, having only had male teachers up until that point. When I took a math class my junior year in high school that happened to be taught by a woman, I excelled. I have always wondered if it was her means of communication, or simply the subject-matter (trig) that made the difference. Whatever it was, I "got it."


----------



## Etcetera

I'll copy here my posts from the thread mentioned above.



> I've just thought that, indeed, before 1917 school teachers in Russia were mainly men, and they were well respected people. I don't know if their salaries were high, but I suppose it might be so.
> And after 1917 communists came, and teaching gradually became feminised...


 


> Here male teachers are few, even at universities. But at universities at also depends on the faculy. For example, at my Faculty of Philology most teachers are female, but at the Faculty for Jurisprudence most are male.


 
I must admit that my favourite teachers are male.  
As for the government's position - oh, it's so good that somebody still wants to teach children!..


----------



## moodywop

Here's the breakdown in my secondary school (1416 students between the ages of 14 and 18).

Female teachers: 118

Male teachers: 40

However, my school has a large section concentrating on business studies, where the percentage of male teachers is a bit higher.

When it comes to the humanities, there are only a few male teachers:

Italian/Latin/History/Philosophy:

Female teachers: 35 Male teachers: 6

Modern Languages (English/French/German):

Female teachers: 16 Male teachers: 2

In 2000 the percentages of female teachers in Italy were as follows:

Primary school : 95%

Middle School(11-14) : 73%

Secondary school (14-18): 60%


The average monthly salary is 1300-1400 euro.

The disparity is not perceived as a problem in Italy.


----------



## djchak

I could have probably become a teacher, as some members of my family are.

But the pay is awful, and acedemia is a stifling, politically correct environment, so I decided to go into IT.

I don't regret it. Some men decide to be Teachers when they are young, to work like 3 years, and then get another job. Bottom line... the pay, pressure, and environment is often not encouraging.


----------



## emma42

OFSTED, the Office for children and learners in England and Wales, reports that since 1993 there has been a 7% fall in the number of male teachers at secondary school and a 2% rise in the number of female teachers. Female teachers now outnumber male teachers at secondary level.

However, only 22% of secondary head teachers are women.


----------



## Tatzingo

emma42 said:
			
		

> Female teachers now outnumber male teachers at secondary level.



Emma,

I thought that this had always been the case? What is the current ratio according to OFSTED? (secondary ed.)

Tatz.


----------



## emma42

At secondary level it's 55% female teachers.  At primary level - 85%.


----------



## Fernando

My opinion as a student:

- I have had both male and female teachers throughout my student life.

- I would say that the ratio of male teachers have grown up from elementary to university.

- I have no problem with disparity. It is true that maybe a overwhelming percentage of female teachers at a low age can persuade many boys that studying is "girly" or something good for gays and nerds. 

- Actually, many of them think so, but the general environment push them in that direction (in every sitcom or TV series, the "smart" is the girl and the "dumb" is the boy, see "The Simpsons").

- Why? No idea. 40 years ago, teaching was the only "decent" profession fro women. Nowadays, however, the percentage has not moved very much. At least in Spain it is a part of a general trend for women searching for civil servant jobs.

- Anyway, I do not see the big problem. It is a free access profession. If women enjoy more the education (for whatever reason), it is OK to me.


----------



## emma42

The behaviour and attitude to studying of boys at the primary school where I work, seems to be more or less the same whether it's a male or female teacher. This is anecdotal, though.

By the way, I was very interested in what Genjen said about the sports coaches being used as under-qualified teachers.


----------



## Seana

I would like to say you something I learnt recently. It has shocked me.

Working at Education Department (but I am not a teacher) I have learnt the results of some statistics. It turn out that the highest degree of aggression amongst young people is observed at schools where the schoolmasters are the women the same time in the school run by the men as the schoolmasters these signs are much more lower.

What do you think about it? Do you know similar statistics in your countries.


----------



## Etcetera

Fernando said:
			
		

> - Anyway, I do not see the big problem. It is a free access profession. If women enjoy more the education (for whatever reason), it is OK to me.


Maybe that's the key to the whole problem?.. Women in general are more ready to work with children, as we know...

Seana, it's really shocking!
I don't know if there is any such statistics for Russia, and I even don't know any school with a male director. 
But in my school there were two directors in the time I was stufying there, and they both were ladies of a very strong character. So, the discipline was rather strict.


----------



## Seana

Etcetera said:
			
		

> (...)they both were ladies of a very strong character. So, the discipline was rather strict.


 
I am afraid that it doesn't depend on this.


----------



## emma42

Female teachers, in my vast experience, are perfectly capable of instilling discipline. However, I do think there is a debate to be had on the need for male teachers (not particularly in terms of discipline), particularly in secondary schools, but preferably in all.


----------



## Seana

I don't know the systems of statistical examinations but I believe them very much because they are hard-faced and ruthless worked out on very large groups.
In our department loads of statistics are analised. They show and reflect really every deflection in the global scale.There would not do any good to delude oneself.


----------



## cuchuflete

Personal experience...from an ancient history text:

Elementary school (ages 4-11 or 12) About 80% female teachers, and female head of school.
Junior High school- About 50% female, including math, sciences, advanced history; Head of school and vice-head were male.  Art teachers and music teachers were male.
High school (ages 14-18) About 45% female. No patterns by subject matter. Head and vice-head of school male.

University- about 80% male professors.  (At the same university today, it's about 60% male.)

Graduate School (MBA program)- I do not recall a single female with professorial rank!  This has changed, but only a little, since my student days at that University.


----------



## emma42

It should be remembered that (I think this is correct) in the US "professor" is assigned to any higher education teacher, but only to heads of department/those who hold a "chair" in England.  I hope I am not misleading.


----------



## cuchuflete

emma42 said:
			
		

> It should be remembered that (I think this is correct) in the US "professor" is assigned to any higher education teacher, but only to heads of department/those who hold a "chair" in England.  I hope I am not misleading.


It's not quite as simple as we all might like.  In US universities and colleges (smaller universities that offer undergraduate education primarily), there are adjunct teaching staff who are not called professors.  There are assistent professors, the most junior members of the faculty, untenured.  There are Associate Professors, sometimes tenured. Finally, there are "Full" Professors, generally just called Professors.  Typically the last group are the only ones to occupy endowed chairs, but not all full professors have endowed chairs.

Department heads may be either Associate or Full Professors.
Department administrative leadership often rotates among the faculty every few years, and is not always linked to excellence in either teaching or research.

Males and females are present in every one of these categories.

If you are not confused yet, try to explain this to a European friend.


----------



## Joelline

The explanation of rank that Cuchu describes is generally correct, but there are little differences in most colleges and universities.  For example, at my university, all associate and full professors are tenured; however, with only one or two exceptions that I know of, only full professors may be department chairs (the exceptions are in the performing arts).  In addition, only full professors are on "tenure committees" (those committees that decide who has satisfied the requirements for tenure).

Regarding gender differences, my university is typical: the higher the rank, the greater the percentage of males; the higher the rank, the higher the salary.  Again, there are exceptions, but they are in schools that have always had large numbers of females:  Library Science, Nursing, Social Work.

Finally, I would love to see more male teachers in the elementary schools.  One of the reasons that so many boys in the US don't read well is that they have so few role models to prove to them that, yes, real men do read books (and not just the sports pages of the newspapers).


----------



## Brioche

Etcetera said:
			
		

> Maybe that's the key to the whole problem?.. Women in general are more ready to work with children, as we know...


 
Many men don't want to work with children because of the hysteria about child molestation.


----------



## emma42

That is a very good point, actually, and a really sad one.


----------



## coconutpalm

My exams are pressing, so I don't have much time to find much statistical figures. I will provide my personal experiences and some information I know for sure.

In kindergartens, 1:213, male versus female (the government data)
In primary schools, fairly equal.
In secondary schools, male teachers are a little more than females.
In high school, much much more male teachers.
In universities, I think that depends on the subjects. Arts: a little more females than males. Science, much much more males than females.

In all of these schools, female teachers can rarely climb up to the higher/highest ladder. And female teachers mainly teach arts subject while male teachers teach both, maybe more opt to science under college level.


----------



## Etcetera

coconutpalm said:
			
		

> In all of these schools, female teachers can rarely climb up to the higher/highest ladder. And female teachers mainly teach arts subject while male teachers teach both, maybe more opt to science under college level.


How strange. Here in Russia, female professors aren't so few. In fact, they are as many as male professors, I suppose.


----------



## coconutpalm

It's really really hard for females to gain a professor position. There is a saying "Associate professor is what a woman can ever achieve." Joking? I'm afraid not. There are rarely female professors. A "decent" amount of female associate professors, though.


----------



## djchak

As an aside (but related to the discussion), what do you think of miltary schools, and the obvious greater male to female ratio?

Are they the "answer" to helping boys achieve better than in a "standard" school? Are they a way to attract/recruit more male teachers from other professions? 

It's an open ended question/subject, there is no wrong answer....


----------



## moodywop

Joelline said:
			
		

> Finally, I would love to see more male teachers in the elementary schools. One of the reasons that so many boys in the US don't read well is that they have so few role models to prove to them that, yes, real men do read books (and not just the sports pages of the newspapers).


 
Joelline, I wonder whether this "role model" idea is not just an assumption we take for granted and that may prove to be unfounded. 
There is probably some academic research on the subject and I may be proved wrong, but in my experience what matters is the teacher's ability to motivate students rather than the teacher's gender. What can make a far bigger difference is whether kids are used to seeing their parents read at home.

On a related topic, there are quite a few studies claiming that girls do better in single sex schools:

_In a twenty-year Australian study of 270,000 students, Dr. Ken Rowe found that both boys and girls performed between 15 and 22 percentile points higher on standardized tests when they went to separate schools._

_A 2001 British study of 2954 high schools and 979 primary schools showed that while boys at the lowest ends academically improved the most in single sex schools, nearly every girl regardless of her ability or socio-economic status performed better in single sex classrooms than co-ed ones. The study concluded that single sex education was particularly beneficial to girls. Highest achieving students in this study were girls in single sex schools followed by co-ed girls, then boys in single sex schools and finally co-ed boys. _

Does anybody know of similar studies in other countries?


----------



## Etcetera

No, Moodywop. 
I even don't know if there are single-sex schools here in Russia (except military schools, of course). 
But it is well-known that girls are more smart and quicker on the uptake than boys of the same age. Then, girls and boys need different treatment, 'cause girls are more quite, and boys (it seems to me) need to be more interested in the subject. 
Had I had children, I'd like them to go to single-sex school!


----------



## emma42

I have to say that I am suspicious that single sex schools are better for either sex. There are lots of studies showing greater academic success, particularly for girls (as Moodywop says), but, as far as I am concerned, academic success is far from the only measure. Success in non-academic subjects, personal success, social and emotional education are incredibly important. Unfortunately, the British Government, with its League Tables and SATs does not seem to agree with me.  I really believe that girls and boys are  best served in a holistic educational setting.  They are together in life, so school should reflect this.  I thoroughly enjoyed being at a mixed sex school and did well academically, but that is anecdotal.


----------



## moodywop

emma42 said:
			
		

> They are together in life, so school should reflect this


 
I agree!

I only quoted those studies because they've always intrigued me. They mainly seem to have been conducted in countries whose education systems are based on the British model - where there is a long tradition of single-sex schools, especially independent(private) schools. The studies are actually often quoted in the brochures of these schools.


----------



## la reine victoria

Brioche said:
			
		

> Many men don't want to work with children because of the hysteria about child molestation.


 


Before I started working with my local Young Archaeologists' Group (age 9+) I had to obtain police clearance, even though I'm a female.




LRV


----------



## Seana

moodywop said:
			
		

> _(...) while boys at the lowest ends academically improved the most in single sex schools, nearly every girl regardless of her ability or socio-economic status performed better in single sex classrooms than co-ed ones. The study concluded that single sex education was particularly beneficial to girls. Highest achieving students in this study were girls in single sex schools followed by co-ed girls, then boys in single sex schools and finally co-ed boys. _
> Does anybody know of similar studies in other countries?


 
Yes, I know such a surprising result. It was fully uncanny for me. I have never thought about schools in this way - but really according these studies young people from co-educational schools have much more poorer achievements then students from single sex high school. And really, particularly girls are better.


----------



## Etcetera

There used to be single sex schools in Russia before 1917. And what's interesting, there were generally no problems in establishing men-women relationships after school - and nowadays those who oppose the idea of single sex education, often say that separating girls and boys from each other at school may prevent them from establishing normal relationships in adult life.


----------



## emma42

Moodywop, I thought you would agree!

LRV, yes, you do have to obtain clearance from the CRB (Criminal Records Bureau), but I was talking more about teachers being unfairly accused.  I know, from experience, that adolescent girls can be very passionate and insistent.


----------



## la reine victoria

Etcetera said:
			
		

> There used to be single sex schools in Russia before 1917. And what's interesting, there were generally no problems in establishing men-women relationships after school - and nowadays those who oppose the idea of single sex education, often say that separating girls and boys from each other at school may prevent them from establishing normal relationships in adult life.


 

My primary school education, up to age 11, was in a co-educational school with male and female teachers.

My grammar school education, 11-17, was in a 'girls only' school with all female staff.

The lack of male company didn't bother me - there was plenty of that outside school.

I had no problems forming heterosexual relationships when I left school. I had many admirers, which made my mother say, "Well, you certainly have plenty of strings to your bow!" (A charming old British idiom.) 





LRV


----------



## Seana

Etcetera, would you have a look on this link.
http://www.lo-urszulanki.wroc.pl/galeria/galeria.html

Would you believe that it is 21 century? I know personally its two representatives - the women -architects. 
100 percent of all these girls graduate good academies or universities, They are open minded and erudite persons, athletic and emancipated. Simply ideals.


----------



## Etcetera

Oh, Seana! It's just marvellous. 
Somehow reminded me of Hogwarts, you know.


----------



## Seana

Isn't Hogwarts co-educational school?  


BTW
Etcetera you are troublesome child.


----------



## Etcetera

It is. But still, the atmosphere of both schools... And the library... Ah!

Returning to the subject of the thread, I think one more advantage of single sex schools is that girls are generally taught by women, and boys be men. So, the children aren't in any danger of adopting wrong social roles.


----------



## Seana

The goal of Ursuline Girls’ High School is to nurture the growth of the student as a whole individual in the spirit of freedom, love and truth and development of a whole person, actively participating in the life of the family and the country.
It is beautiful mission, isn't it?
There are a few single sex school here and all of them have very high level of education.

The teachers are both genders. But there are less the male teachers too.


----------



## emma42

And what, dear etcetera, troublesome child, do you mean by that? - "adopting wrong social roles".


----------



## maxiogee

Etcetera said:
			
		

> So, the children aren't in any danger of adopting wrong social roles.


 
Are you saying that being taught by members of the opposite sex is going to make girls "manly" and boys "womanly"?


----------



## GenJen54

Putting on my OLD SCHOOL MARM hat:  There is much too much chatter and side talk in this thread.  Please stick to the topic at hand. 

Here is a reminder:





> Hello everyone. In the Thread "Male female relationships nowadays" the conversation has been turning to the matter of male and female teachers and some disparity in numbers.
> 
> Some forer@s are bemoaning the fact that, in their countries, there are too few male teachers. In England, there are very few male teachers at elementary level, but lots at secondary level.
> 
> What is the situation in your country and how do you feel about it? Does the sex of a teacher have a notable effect on students? Is your government trying to address any disparity? Are there, for instance, more female teachers in art and more male in sciences?


----------



## emma42

Genjen, I am sorry, I thought I was sticking to the topic.  Etcetera talked about it being better for girls to be taught by women and boys by men in order to ensure that the right social roles were adopted.  How is this off-topic, dear mod?


----------



## GenJen54

I was actually talking about the comments regarding Hogwarts, et. al. You all beat me to the punch. Carry on!


----------



## Etcetera

An interesting fact. In Japanese there are two manners of writing letters, for instance. Women usually use more polite forms, so it's rather easy to see if a letter was written by a woman or by a man. 
So, at elementary school, where the majority of teachers are women, boys adopt this womanly manner of writing, and they have to re-learn how to write at secondary and higher school. 
I don't remember where I've read this, but it seemed to be some reliable source. 
Anyway, I suppose no one would deny that men amd women are rather different in their behaviour and attitude, and teachers' influence on their pupils is usually pretty strong...

And yes, Emma, I am sure that it's better for girls to be taught by women and boys to be taught by men. At the level of primary and - partially - secondary school, at least.


----------



## Seana

Etcetera said:
			
		

> It is. But still, the atmosphere of both schools... And the library... Ah!
> 
> Returning to the subject of the thread, I think one more advantage of single sex schools is that girls are generally taught by women, and boys be men. So, the children aren't in any danger of adopting wrong social roles.


 

I am very sorry to interupt here but I have understood it as - it is good for boys to be in sex single school and for girls to be in sex single school,  I know that in those school the teachers are the both genders.


----------



## emma42

But, etcetera, you have given no reason as to why you think this, except for the writing letters point which, though significant, does not constitute an argument, to my mind.


----------



## Etcetera

Dearest Emma, the reason is so simple! 
Just the same as to why a girl needs a mother to bring her up, and a boy needs a father. A woman knows better what is right for a girl and how to treat her, and just the same thing with a man!


----------



## djchak

Etcetera said:
			
		

> Dearest Emma, the reason is so simple!
> Just the same as to why a girl needs a mother to bring her up, and a boy needs a father. A woman knows better what is right for a girl and how to treat her, and just the same thing with a man!



While that seems ideal, plenty of single parents would disagree.

Anyway, single sex education seems to work better for education.

BUT:

" Success in non-academic subjects, personal success, social and emotional education are incredibly important."

(ok, "emotional educations" sounds scary as hell. WTF is it?)

What Emma said seems to be what PARENTS seem to want also (at least where I live)

So single sex education seems to be forever a niche market for :

1: parents who want the highest educational standards, and screw everything else

2: Boys who keep goofing off in co-ed schools, and usually improve substantially...


----------



## maxiogee

Etcetera said:
			
		

> Dearest Emma, the reason is so simple!
> Just the same as to why a girl needs a mother to bring her up, and a boy needs a father. A woman knows better what is right for a girl and how to treat her, and just the same thing with a man!



Children need - where available - the presence and influence of both parents in their upbringing.
Children brought up by one parent struggling alone (be they male or female) _can_ develop unrealistic attitudes to the role in their lives of those of the gender of the absent parent. This can, of course, also happen in two-parent families, particularly those which have one very domineering parent - but it is more likely to happen, I believe, in one-parent families.

I am aghast at the notion that boys _need_ male teachers, or that girls _need_ female ones. What they each need is committed teachers given the tools, resources and curriculum to do the job.


----------



## gato2

Estoy de acuerdo en que lo que se necesitan son buenos profesores independientemente de su sexo.


----------



## emma42

Basically, children need good role models of both sexes.  This does not mean that single parent families may fail children, as long as there are other role models around - friends, uncles, aunts, whatever.

In schools, though, children spend a heck of a lot of time there with adults to whom they are specifically and repeatedly told to listen, so, for a properly rounded education the preference, in my view, is for teachers of  both sexes.


----------



## cuchuflete

emma42 said:
			
		

> Basically, *children need good role models of both sexes.*  This does not mean that single parent families may fail children, as long as there are other role models around - friends, uncles, aunts, whatever.
> 
> In schools, though, children spend a heck of a lot of time there with adults to whom they are specifically and repeatedly told to listen, so, for a properly rounded education the preference, in my view, is for teachers of  both sexes.



Opening Pandora's box...

What about getting past the biology of "both", and including
homosexual men and women among the role models?

All of my elementary school teachers were female.
Half of my junior and senior high school teachers were
female. Very few of my university teachers were female.
I really don't see how any of that made a difference in
either education or "socialization".  Of course, I had two parents at home, who were important role models.


----------



## emma42

Well, Cuchuflete, I do usually include gay people when I talk about "men and women"!


----------



## moodywop

Am I the only one who thinks that the only way teachers should act as role models is by doing their job with professionalism and enthusiam?


----------



## emma42

No, you are not, Moodywop.


----------



## cuchuflete

moodywop said:
			
		

> Am I the only one who thinks that the only way teachers should act as role models is by doing their job with professionalism and enthusiam?



You have company.  That's why the discussion of men and women as teachers seems so pointless.  I have had excellent female and excellent male teachers.  They were good role models.  I have suffered poor teachers, both male and female.
They too were role models, for what to avoid.


----------



## almostfreebird

Etcetera said:
			
		

> An interesting fact. In Japanese there are two manners of writing letters, for instance. Women usually use more polite forms, so it's rather easy to see if a letter was written by a woman or by a man.


 
When I read novels(written in Japanese) I don't see any difference between male writers and female writers except colloquial parts,or unless it is written in a colloquial or chatting manner.And we usually are not taught how to chat in school but in everyday life. I would detect which gender the writer is through context or contents if it was an anonym.


----------



## coconutpalm

I believe both female and male teachers can do a good job, and my experiences prove my thought.

I also believe that a child brought up by mother and father is less opt to be happy. I'm not saying that a single parent can't do a good job, but two heads are better than one, and there are many other psychological fators working.

I don't think boys should only be taught by male teachers and girls should only be taught by female teachers. In the teacher case, I don't think gender matters so much. I agree with Carlo.

We don't have single-sex schools in China, and I don't like this form of schools, either.


----------



## emma42

Hi almostfreebird, "If the writer were anonymous".


----------

