# Bulgarian: ни, ви



## Kartof

How are these words (meaning only the short accusative first and second person plural pronouns, respectively) pronounced in various Bulgarian dialects?  Their standard pronunciation doesn't sit right with me and in accordance with my dialect (a Balkan dialect) I typically pronounce them as нъ, въ or не, ве.  This caught my interest recently when I noticed that they are spelled не and ве in Macedonian.  I find it strange that they be spelled the same as their dative counterparts in the standard language and was wondering if anyone can attest to pronouncing them as they are spelled in Bulgarian.


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## Vulcho

They were originally pronounced ни, ви (as in standard Bulgarian) in all dialects, but then changed by analogy with 1st and 2nd person singular ме, те (or мъ, тъ in the east) to не, ве (нъ, въ). This change occurred in most dialects I think, but especially in the east, because easterners still use нъ, въ a lot, while Sofians speak correctly. I considered it a purely eastern feature until I found it in Macedonian and some Serbian dialects.


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## Gnoj

Kartof said:


> I noticed that they are spelled не and ве in Macedonian.


No. We have "не" (we write it "н*ѐ*" for distinguishing it with "не" [no]) and "ве", but we also have "ни" and "ви".
What's "те" - "ти" and "ме" - "ми" for singular is "ве" - "ви" and "нѐ" - "ни" for plural:

BG | MK
теб те = тебе те
на теб ти = тебе ти
мен ме = мене ме
на мен ми = мене ми

вас ви = вас ве
на вас ви = вас ви
нас ни = нас нѐ
на нас ни = нас ни


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## lavverats

I've heard не, ве in some villages around Sofia, Pernik and Radomir, and нъ, въ in the Goce Delchev area i.e. the west part of Bulgaria.
As far as the Macedonian standard is concerned I think they strictly use не, ве. Sometimes I have problems in understanding because of that - I can't distinguish the negative particle "ne" from the short accusative form plural (s. p.). For example: "Не поткрепиа Србите." that means: "Подкрепиха ни србите", but from my Bulgarian point of view it can mean "(Те) Не подкрепиха сърбите."


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## osemnais

Here's what is written in Българска диалектология:


> За 1 и 2 л. мн. ч., общо взето, източните говори имат форма _нѝе_, _вѝе_, a западните — _нѝйа, вѝйа, нѝа, вѝа_. Само в някои мизийски говори се среща старата форма за 1 л. _мы_. За гломеративен падеж в повечето говори има една пълна форма _нас_, _вас_ и кратка _ни, ви_. В някои тракийски и родопски говори обаче старата форма за дателен падеж _нам_ е поела функцията на гломеративен: _пѝтай нàм, у нàм н’àма кòзи, и на нàм зèха кòн’а, дàде на нàм, на вàм кàк ви йе ѝмето_. В много говори се срещат особени кратки форми за гломеративен падеж _не, ве_ (_на, ва; нъ, въ_), образувани по аналогия на кратките форми за ед. ч. _ме, те_ (_ма, та; мъ, тъ_): _пѝтạ не, вòдạт не нàс, вѝкạт ве вàс_. За дателен падеж в повечето говори няма особена пълна форма. Само в някои западни и рупски говори се срещат формите _нам, вам: дàде нàм, вѝкат вàм_. Кратката форма във всички говори е _ни, ви_.


unfortunately it doesn't mention any specific dialect


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## lavverats

Hey Gnoj,
I'm interested in whether all the dialects in RoM use не, ве?


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## Gnoj

lavverats said:


> Hey Gnoj,
> I'm interested in whether all the dialects in RoM use не, ве?


Yes, it's in all dialects. There is a dialectal difference only in using "на" - in some dialects it's "нас ни кажаа" and in other dialects - "на нас ни кажаа". But it's never "нас ни уплашија" instead of "нас *нѐ* уплашија".


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## Arath

lavverats said:


> For example: "Не поткрепиа Србите." that means: "Подкрепиха ни србите", but from my Bulgarian point of view it can mean "(Те) Не подкрепиха сърбите."



"Подкрепиха ни Сърбите" is "Нѐ подкрепиjа Србите"
"Не подкрепиха Сърбите" would be "Не ги подкрепиjа Србите".

In Macedonian, when the direct object is definite, one must use clitic doubling.



Vulcho said:


> I considered it a purely eastern feature until I  found it in Macedonian and some Serbian dialects.


Actually, the overwhelming majority of Bulgarian dialects on the present day territory of the Republic of Bulgaria use "мъ, тъ, съ" or "ма, та, са" instead of "ме, те, се". Look at this map: 

http://www.promacedonia.org/jchorb/st/karta_1b.gif

It's found in the North Western dialects as well: in Vratsa, Botevgrad, Vidin, even very close to Elin Pelin.

In the South West dialects they use "не" and "ве". So probably almost all Bulgarian dialects distinguish between the short accusative and short dative forms of the plural first and second person pronouns. It's funny this distinction didn't make it into the standard language.


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## Gnoj

osemnais said:


> Here's what is written in Българска диалектология:
> unfortunately it doesn't mention any specific dialect
> 
> 
> 
> _формите нам, вам: дàде нàм, вѝкат вàм._
Click to expand...

I had almost forgotten about this form. Standard Macedonian also allows "нам" and "вам" instead of what's "на нас" and "на вас" in standard Bulgarian.
So:

нас нѐ | (на) нас ни = нам ни
вас ве | (на) вас ви = вам ви


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