# μέσα και αποθετικά ρήματα



## larshgf

Hi,

Wonder how you would translate this "μέσα και αποθετικά ρήματα" into English?
The term "αποθετικά" means deponent, but the term "μέσα" means something like "inside"?

BR Lars


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## Perseas

Μέσα ρήματα:
"μέσα" here is the plural of "μέσο" (-->το μέσο, τα μέσα). I think it's "medium" in English.

An example:
1.(εγώ) σηκώνω κάτι---> σηκώνω is «ενεργητικό».
2.(εγώ) σηκώνομαι από το κρεβάτι ---> σηκώνομαι (σηκώνω τον εαυτό μου) is «μέσο».
3.(εγώ) σηκώνομαι από τη μητέρα μου ---> σηκώνομαι is «παθητικό».
4.(εγώ) κοιμάμαι —-> κοιμάμαι is «ουδέτερο».
The designations «ενεργητικό, μέσο, παθητικό, ουδέτερο» concern the category «verb’s disposition” (διάθεση του ρήματος).

I edited a little my reply.


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## Acestor

They are called *middle verbs*, and in modern Greek they are called μεσοπαθητικά, *mediopassive*, because there are no morphological differences between the middle and the passive voice.


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## Perseas

If you refer to the disposition (διάθεση) of a verb, they are called just «*μέσα*».
«σηκώνομαι» in my second example above is μέσο, in terms of disposition.
The dispositions (διαθέσεις) are four: ενεργητική, μέση, παθητική & ουδέτερη (διάθεση).


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## larshgf

I guess you might say  that the "ουδέτερη" is like deponent (αποθετικά) verbs (the meaning is active, but the morphology is passive) ?
Examples: λυπάμαι, θυμάμαι, κοιμάμαι and φοβάμαι.


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## bearded

Perseas said:


> "μέσα" here is the plural of "μέσο" (-->το μέσο


Is that a nominalized adjective originally (considering also the _mesi diathesis_): from mesos/i/o ?


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## Perseas

bearded said:


> Is that a nominalized adjective originally (considering also the _mesi diathesis_): from mesos/i/o ?


Νο, "μέσα" is just an adjective (not nominalized) and refers to "ρήματα" --> "μέσα ρήματα". Also, as you say, "μέση διάθεσις/-η". Yes, it's the adjective "μέσος-μέση-μέσον".



larshgf said:


> I guess you might say  that the "ουδέτερη" is like deponent (αποθετικά) verbs (the meaning is active, but the morphology is passive) ?
> Examples: λυπάμαι, θυμάμαι, κοιμάμαι and φοβάμαι.


"Deponent verbs" ("αποθετικά ρήματα") are morphologically*(1)* only (medio)passive. As to their disposition*(2)* they can be active, middle, passive or neutral. For example: "εκμεταλλεύομαι" is passive morphologically, but regarding its disposition it is active because it can take an object---> "εκμεταλλεύομαι όλες τις δυνατότητές μου".

These verbs [λυπάμαι, θυμάμαι, κοιμάμαι and φοβάμαι] are deponent (αποθετικά), i.e. they are (medio)passive in terms of morphology. In terms of their disposition only "κοιμάμαι" is "ουδέτερο"; the others can be middle (μέσα) or active (ενεργητικά) since they can get an object.

---------------------------------------------------
*(1)*According to morphology, verbs belong to two categories: active & (medio)passive -->ενεργητικά & (μεσο)παθητικά ρήματα, as Acestor said in #3. Example: θεωρ*ώ *is active but θεωρού*μαι *is (medio)passive.

*(2)*According to if the subject of the verb is active, passive or is in a state, there are four verbal dispositions: active, middle, passive & (I guess) neutral --> ενεργητική, μέση, παθητική & ουδέτερη (διάθεση). I have written examples in my previous posts.
[The four verbal dispositions (διαθέσεις) -- active, passive, middle and neutral-- denote that the subject performs an action, is acted upon or is in a state.]


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## dmtrs

larshgf said:


> I guess you might say that the "ουδέτερη" is like deponent (αποθετικά) verbs (the meaning is active, but the morphology is passive) ?
> Examples: λυπάμαι, θυμάμαι, κοιμάμαι and φοβάμαι.



As Perseas wrote, "ουδέτερo ρήμα" applies to its disposition (neutral), without any connection to its morphology.
Morphologically (voice wise) a verb can be either active (ending in -ω) or passive (ending in -μαι).
The four dispositions mean:
_Active_: the subject performs an action [κλωτσάω τη μπάλα / εργάζομαι / πηδάω / δίνω τη μπάλα στο Γιώργο = I kick the ball / I work / I jump / I give John the ball; active verbs can take an object (or two) -verbs with active disposition can be *either in active or in passive* *voice*,* the latter are called αποθετικά*]
_Passive_: the subject is the target of an action performed by someone else [ο στρατιώτης χτυπήθηκε από σφαίρα / ο ποιητής τιμήθηκε = the soldier was hit by a bullet / the poet was honoured; passive verbs have an agent, be that mentioned or omitted - verbs with passive disposition are normally in passive voice too]
_Middle_: the subject performs an action that affects himself [πλένομαι / αυταπατώμαι = I wash myself / Ι deceive myself; middle verbs are normally in passive voice; there might be exceptions, but I cannot think of one right now]
_Neutral_: the subject finds himself in a specific state (κοιμάμαι / ξεκουράζομαι / χαίρομαι / ρεμβάζω = Ι sleep / I rest / I am glad / I daydream; neutral verbs can be* either in active or in passive* *voice *-this is where you have it wrong]


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## bearded

Perseas said:


> not nominalized


Sorry, I had misunderstood your ''to meso'' then.


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## Perseas

bearded said:


> Sorry, I had misunderstood your ''to meso'' then.


Yes, I had dropped "ρήμα", but in other cases "το μέσο" can work as noun, e.g. "μεταφορικό μέσο" = "means of transport".


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## larshgf

Thank you Perseas and dmtrs for your comprehensive answers. The distinction between morphology and disposition is clear now…


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## ioanell

dmtrs said:


> middle verbs are normally in passive voice; there might be exceptions, but I cannot think of one right now]



Just to complete a specific point of dmtrs’ post #8 with verbs of middle disposition, active voice: the subject performs (either on his/her own or through the mediation of somebody else) an action that affects himself/herself, e.g. "Έπεσε πάνω σε μια κολόνα και χτύπησε (<χτυπώ) άσχημα" (=he fell onto a post and hit himself badly) and "Χτίζω σπίτι στην εξοχή" ( δηλ. ένας εργολάβος με το συνεργείο του το χτίζουν για λογαριασμό μου=that is a contractor with his team are building a house for me in the countryside) (equivalent to the English: I am having a house being built in the countryside).


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