# 无 / 没



## themadprogramer

What's the difference between these two [无 and 没]. As far  as I can see they can both be used like the English -less suffix in certain circumstances. (I specifically am asking for the differences in this case not the other meanings or readings)


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## xiaolijie

The basic difference is: 没 is a word itself whereas 无 is part of a word or phrase.


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## zhg

Are you asking the differences between 没用/无用, 没害/无害? Maybe 没 sounds slightly more colloquial and informal, while 无 is often used to give a sense of formal speech. However you still need a context to differ the usages.


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## Ghabi

We need some examples to know what you mean exactly, *Ahmet*. But to build on what others have said above, I think you should not treat 没 as a prefix thing. For example, a "pilotless plane" is 无人驾驶飞机, not 没人驾驶飞机.  The latter would mean "no one is to drive the plane" (or something like that depending on the context).

Similarly, 无糖豆浆 means "sugar-free soy milk" while *没糖豆浆 doesn't make sense. On the other hand, 豆浆没糖 would mean something like "the soy milk has no sugar! (i.e. someone forgot to add sugar into it)".

So perhaps you can regard 没 as something used for the predicate and 无 used in a prefix.


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## fyl

Basically, 没 is the word in modern Mandarin, 无 is the word in ancient Chinese. You should always use 没 in spoken language, and you must never use 没 in a classic Chinese sentence.
Then why is 无 still a common character? First, we are still using many words and idioms from classic Chinese; Second, in modern written language there are also newly constructed words with 无 mimicking the usage in classic Chinese.
That's why 无 is usually a part of a word, and 没 can be used as a word itself. For Ghabi's examples, 无糖豆浆 is read as 无糖/豆浆 (无糖 is one word 'sugar-free'), 没糖豆浆 can only be read as 没/糖豆浆 (means 'have no 糖豆浆') which can make sense if '糖豆浆' is treated as the name of something.


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## Skatinginbc

A: 我們公司沒有沒良心(conscienceless)的人, 只有沒頭腦(brainless)的人.
B: 少白扯了, 到了法院, 我看你這沒骨氣(boneless), 沒德行(virtueless), 沒皮賴臉(shameless)的奸商,  還能不能說出這樣沒根據(baseless = 《朱子語類》沒巴鼻), 沒量斗(standardless)的話.


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## xiaolijie

I'm not sure what you were trying to say with the examples you cited, skatinginbc. 没 being a word doesn't prevent it from being part of a longer word or phrase, which is very different from 无, which can only be part of a word or phrase. In other words, 无 is a bound-morpheme.


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## Skatinginbc

無 in the following sentences does not appear to be a bound morpheme to me: 
有無沒錢的辦法? 
讓您再無沒電的煩惱.
無沒學歷但很有能力的人.


Ahmet Akkoç said:


> As far  as I can see they can both be used  like the English -less suffix in certain circumstances.





Ghabi said:


> We need some examples to know what you mean exactly, *Ahmet*.


That's why I threw in some examples in #6.  They are to demonstrate why a learner of Chinese could be confused by their usages: 沒, like 無, can sometimes be used like the English suffix "-less".


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## retrogradedwithwind

I think, to memorize more words and phrases that contain 没/无 is a practical way to learn their difference.Summing up all inputs above, my view is that 无is a classic and written way to express "dont have or without" whereas 没 is a modern and spoken way.没羞没臊，没脸没皮，没着没落.无穷无尽，无能为力，无处藏身。他是个没知识的人。他是个无知的人。他没脸没皮的。他无耻。没 is more spoken and 无 is more written.Phrases like 无人驾驶，无极变速certainly are written words.


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## Ghabi

But 无 and 没(有)...的 are essentially two different structures, and their difference is not just a matter of register. For example, 无人驾驶飞机 and 没人驾驶的飞机 mean two different things. The former is a type of plane designed to be pilotless, while the latter is a plane which, for one reason or another, is not driven by anyone at the moment. The former is used to describe a genre, the latter for a particular instance.


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## retrogradedwithwind

现在无人驾驶 is a complete sentence that means 现在没人开(飞机).
So I think my view can be proved.


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## Skatinginbc

To meaningfully discuss the issue at hand, I think we need to separate the following structures: 
1. Adjective (無/没 + N) + Noun: 無線電話 "cordless", 沒種的賊 "courageless".    
2. Relative clause + Noun: 你送我的花, 有人愛的家, 無人看管的小孩, 没人驾驶的飞机.     
3. participle + Noun: 下雨天,   屠龍刀, 人造花, 自動步枪, 无人驾驶飞机 (I'm not able to think of an example where 没 is used in this type of structure).

The reason that 没人驾驶的飞机 differs from 无人驾驶飞机 rests mainly on their structural disparity.  I don't see a clear difference in meaning between 無人看管的小孩 and 没人看管的小孩, or 无人驾驶的飞机 and 没人驾驶的飞机.

As far as the first category is concerned, I think it is a matter of collocation and sometimes a matter of register as retrogradedwithwind correctly explained in #9.  The only rule of thumb that I can come up with at this moment is: 沒 + abstract notion or intangible object, whereas 無 has no restriction. 
So we have: 無尾熊, 無毛犬, 无糖豆浆, 無線電話...(Note: The nouns in 沒心沒肝 or 沒頭沒腦 are used in their figurative senses, which are abstract notions, not tangible objects).


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## themadprogramer

As far as I can understand 没 acts a bit like the no in no-brains, whereas 无 is more close to "-less". Although it seems that in some cases you'd use 没 rather than 无. I thank everyone here for elaborating


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## retrogradedwithwind

Skatinginbc said:


> To meaningfully discuss the issue at hand, I think we need to separate the following structures:
> 1. Adjective (無/没 + N) + Noun: 無線電話 "cordless", 沒種的賊 "courageless".
> 2. Relative clause + Noun: 你送我的花, 有人愛的家, 無人看管的小孩, 没人驾驶的飞机.
> 3. participle + Noun: 下雨天,   屠龍刀, 人造花, 自動步枪, 无人驾驶飞机 (I'm not able to think of an example where 没 is used in this type of structure).
> 
> The reason that 没人驾驶的飞机 differs from 无人驾驶飞机 rests mainly on their structural disparity.  I don't see a clear difference in meaning between 無人看管的小孩 and 没人看管的小孩, or 无人驾驶的飞机 and 没人驾驶的飞机.
> 
> As far as the first category is concerned, I think it is a matter of collocation and sometimes a matter of register as retrogradedwithwind correctly explained in #9.  The only rule of thumb that I can come up with at this moment is: 沒 + abstract notion or intangible object, whereas 無 has no restriction.
> So we have: 無尾熊, 無毛犬, 无糖豆浆, 無線電話...(Note: The nouns in 沒心沒肝 or 沒頭沒腦 are used in their figurative senses, which are abstract notions, not tangible objects).



I think you are right.
And participle+noun may be the crucial difference.


Ahmet Akkoç said:


> 没 acts a bit like the no in no-brains, whereas 无 is more close to "-less".


This is a marvelous understanding.


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## brofeelgood

Nice insights. I would agree that 无 fits most but not all -less words, as pointed out by *skatinginbc* in post #6.


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## Skatinginbc

Ghabi said:


> I think you should not treat 没 as a prefix  thing...So perhaps you can regard 没 as something used for the predicate  and 无 used in a prefix.


Do 無 and 沒 differ in grammatical/morphological function in the following pairs: 無頭案子 vs. 沒頭案子; 無脚蟹 vs. 沒腳蟹; 無嘴葫蘆 vs. 沒嘴葫蘆; 無頭蒼蠅 vs. 沒頭蒼蠅; 無本生意 vs. 沒本生意?  All of the above are old expressions used in their  figurative or abstract senses; for instance, 頭 does not really mean "head" but "clue" instead.   

I do see differences in the following pairs: 無脊椎動物 vs. 沒脊椎動物; 無灰粉筆 vs. 沒灰粉筆; 無人飛機 vs. 沒人的飛機; 無人銀行 vs. 沒人的銀行.  These are all recent innovations that refer to physical  existence of an object.  For instance, 脊椎 indeed means "spine" and 人 "human being".

The supposed distinction between "bound-morpheme 無" and "free-morpheme 沒" seems to be a recent development.  無 is widely used as a prefix in modern terminologies such as  無糖豆浆 and 無線電話.  This development is pushing 沒 into a complementary distribution with 無.


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## retrogradedwithwind

软脚虾，无头公案，无本生意。
没嘴葫芦，没头苍蝇。
Excellent!
没头苍蝇 is a decisive envidence.


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## Wangxinqing

东边日出西边雨，道是无晴却有晴。
无花无酒锄作田。
可怜无定河边骨，犹是深闺梦里人。
多情却被无情恼。
落红不是无情物，化作春泥更护花。
假作真时真亦假，无为有处有还无。
亲朋无一字，老病有孤舟。
As you can see, 无 seems more formal.


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## kenosdi

无 could mean 没有.
没 is not a word on its own, and it usually means 没有 by default.

I totally agree with every example people gave above, and I think there is only one point I need to make:
无 could also mean 空无, and it relates to 空 when it comes to 佛教/道教经典, such as 无相，无智亦无得，etc.

I would recommend you don't see 无 as a separate word, but part of a word, because it could mean very different things when putting in different words, such as 无论，一无所有，无量天尊，无可奈何,etc.


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