# um die eine Million Yen / um eine Million Yen



## Kay Champs

"Jede seiner Puppen verkauft sich für um die eine Million Yen."
My translation of this sentence is:
"Each of his dolls sells for about one million yen."
What I do not understand is "die".  What difference does it make in the meaning?


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## perpend

It's hard to translation the "die". It's just idiomatic.

I might say: Every one of his dolls goes for around about one million yen.


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## Kay Champs

Then, it does not make any difference in meaning, it just makes the sentence sound casual or conversational, right?


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## perpend

There's a lot of grammar happening.

"etwas verkauft sich für XXX"

XXX = um die eine Million Yen

XXX = for around about one million Yen (as I stated above)
XXX = for approximately one million Yen (alternative)

It's quite the interesting question, Kay. I'm trying!


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## Kay Champs

Considering that you added "approximately" as an alternative, it seems like what "die eine" does  is not just adding casualness. "Round about" sounds very informal, but "approximately" doesn't.


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## perpend

Kay Champs said:


> "Each of his dolls sells for about one million yen."



Are you comfortable with your own translation?


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## Kay Champs

I don't see any problem with mine, except for the part related to "die eine", since I don't know its meaning or the nuance it gives.


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## manfy

Kay Champs said:


> Then, it does not make any difference in meaning, it just makes the sentence sound casual or conversational, right?


Nope, it does make a difference!
Here, 'die' is part of the fixed phrase 'um die' = circa, grob, ungefähr
And yes, in comparison to 'circa, grob, ungefähr' the phrase 'um die' appears a bit casual. Nevertheless, it is often used in many environments from colloquial to high level business language.

"Jede seiner Puppen verkauft sich für eine Million Yen." gives the impression that they sell for exactly 1mio Yen.


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## perpend

manfy said:


> "Jede seiner Puppen verkauft sich für eine Million Yen." gives the impression that they sell for exactly 1mio Yen.



It's "... für *um *die eine Millionen Yen ...." in the OP, manfy. (Siehe ganz oben.)

Hier direkt aus dem OP: _"Jede seiner Puppen verkauft sich für um die eine Million Yen."_


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## manfy

perpend said:


> It's "... für um die eine Millionen Yen ...." in the OP, manfy. (Siehe ganz oben.)


Yes, sorry, I should've completed the comparison:

"Jede seiner Puppen verkauft sich für eine Million Yen." gives the impression that they sell for exactly 1mio Yen.
but
"Jede seiner Puppen verkauft sich für *um die *eine Million Yen." explicitly expresses that they sell for about/roughly/approximately 1mio Yen.

And BTW: "Jede seiner Puppen verkauft sich für *um* eine Million Yen." would be grammatically wrong! (even though such a version can be heard in pre-school circles and in very colloquial language)


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## Kay Champs

It's interesting. For me, a Japanese, "die eine Million" sounds precise or exact, and "eine Million" seems to convey "about". But in fact,  it's quite the opposite, right?
Thank you, perpend and manfy.


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## perpend

Direkt aus dem OP: _"Jede seiner Puppen verkauft sich für *um *die eine Million Yen."_

There's an "*um*", Kay, that changes things. 

I don't think it's grammatically wrong, as manfy said. It's just a different way of expressing something.


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## Kay Champs

I think what manfy says is grammatically wrong is the expression "um eine" without "die" in between.


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## Demiurg

I think "die" can be omitted in some cases:

_Eine seiner Puppen kostet so um die 1000 Euro._
_Eine seiner Puppen kostet so um 1000 Euro._

But I would prefer the version with "um die".


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## manfy

Demiurg said:


> I think "die" can be omitted in some cases:
> 
> _Eine seiner Puppen kostet so um die 1000 Euro._
> _Eine seiner Puppen kostet so um 1000 Euro._
> 
> But I would prefer the version with "um die".



"so um" = "um die" = "so um die" = approximately
I think a semantic difference between the 3 phrases is practically nonexistent. The filler word 'so' does emphasize the nature of estimation for the value that follows.



Kay Champs said:


> I think what manfy says is grammatically wrong is the expression "um eine" without "die" in between.


No, it's actually the double use a preposition ("für um") that makes it grammatically wrong.
To recognize this you have to analyze the function of 'um' in the sentence:

"Jede seiner Puppen verkauft sich für eine Million Yen."  standard German, 'für' is a preposition
"Jede seiner Puppen verkauft sich um eine Million Yen."  Austrian German (according to WR dictionary), 'um' is a preposition
"Jede seiner Puppen verkauft sich für um eine Million Yen."  double preposition!
"Jede seiner Puppen verkauft sich für um die eine Million Yen."  'um die' is a fixed phrase and an adverbial with meaning approximately


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## bearded

@ manfy
1) In the expression 'um die eine Million Yen' is 'die' actually singular or plural?
2) Suppose the English said ''....for about the value of 1000Y'.  Would it be possible to say in German ''...fuer um einen Wert von 1000Y'?  If yes, then the 'fixed phrase' would not sound 'um die' any more.


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## Kay Champs

Is double preposition grammatically incorrect except for set phrases? But in the case under discussion, it just so happens that "für" and "um" follows one after another: "für" is related to "verkaufen", "um" to "die eine". Besides, there's a case of double preposition "bis auf" (meaning "including" or "excluding") , which is correct. (But then again, this may also be a case of a set phrase)


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## berndf

The best way to understand the phrase is to understand_ um die eine Million Yen_ as short for _für einen Preis um die eine Million Yen-Marke herum _(_for a price around the one million Yen mark_). This is how it is understood and it also explains the definite article.


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## Glockenblume

I just looked into DWDS:
1) They consider "um die" as colloquial.
2) They see as variants: um (die) ... (herum)
    One of the cited exemples: "_das Buch kostet um (die) 10 Euro herum"

_@bearded man:Would it be possible to say in German_ ''...für um einen Wert von 1000Y"?
> _It's mixing up a rather colloquial style "_für um ..._" and a very standard style "_für einen Wert_", so it's sounds stylistically strange to me. I would either say:
- _für um die 1000 Y_ (rather colloquial) or:
-_ für einen Wert von etwa 1000 Y_ (standard)


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## manfy

bearded man said:


> @ manfy
> 1) In the expression 'um die eine Million Yen' is 'die' actually singular or plural?


I'm not sure, but I would guess it expresses plural for an anticipated plural noun to follow.
Anyways, it doesn't matter, because it has developed into a fixed phrase that is not inflected any more.
Example:
Q: Wie lange wohnst du schon hier? A: Um die zweieinhalb Jahre.
Q: Wie alt ist deine Tochter jezt schon? A: Um die ein Jahr.

It is noteworthy that this expression 'um die' with meaning approximately can only be used before numerals; everything else sounds odd! (as far as I can see)



Glockenblume said:


> - _für um die 1000 Y_ (rather colloquial)


I might not quite condemn it as colloquial but I agree, '_für um die_' does not sound nice.
Instinctively I would replace it here with '_für grob 1000 Y_' or '_für circa 1000 Y_' (particularly in written language).


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## bearded

The set phrase 'um die' sounds particularly odd in the expression 'um die ein Jahr'.  Do you confirm it is idiomatic (Standard? Umgang?).


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## manfy

bearded man said:


> The set phrase 'um die' sounds particularly odd in the expression 'um die ein Jahr'. Do you confirm it is idiomatic (Standard? Umgang?).


I know! And I'm sure, strict grammarians will scream in agony when they see 'um die ein Jahr'. 
But that's just how this expression developed. 
Look at it as if it were a single word, like 'ungefähr', without trying to analyze the individual constituents of this adverbial.
Personally, I see it as a standard expression, not just colloquial.


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## berndf

bearded man said:


> The set phrase 'um die' sounds particularly odd in the expression 'um die ein Jahr'.  Do you confirm it is idiomatic (Standard? Umgang?).


Did you see my note above?


berndf said:


> The best way to understand the phrase is to understand_ um die eine Million Yen_ as short for _für einen Preis um die eine Million Yen-Marke herum _(_for a price around the one million Yen mark_). This is how it is understood and it also explains the definite article.


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## bearded

The oddity consists in the fact that 'eine Million' is feminine, while 'ein Jahr' is neuter. Your answer implies that  'um die' is in fact invariable, no matter what the gender or number of the following words is. Manfy explains it in #22, but to a non-native speaker it really does not sound natural...


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## berndf

bearded man said:


> The oddity consists in the fact that 'eine Million' is feminine, while 'ein Jahr' is neuter. Your answer implies that in 'um die' is in fact invariable, no matter what the gender or number of the following words is. Manfy explains it in #22, but to a non-native speaker it really does not sound natural...


I can only repeat it for a third time: You can only understand the logic of the expression, if you understand it as elliptic.


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## Sowka

Hello 



bearded man said:


> The set phrase 'um die' sounds particularly odd in the expression 'um die ein Jahr'.


I agree with you; to me, it sounds very odd (although I understand manfy's and berndf's reasoning). I would certainly not say "um die ein Jahr" (or "um die ein Meter", to take a masculine example). I would use this phrase only with feminine or plural nouns. In the other cases, I'd use "etwa" or something similar. On the Internet, you can find many instances of "um die ein Jahr", but all those that I've seen involve another structure, like "um die ein Jahr zuvor eingegangene Allianz" etc.


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## manfy

Kay Champs said:


> Is double preposition grammatically incorrect except for set phrases? But in the case under discussion, it just so happens that "für" and "um" follows one after another: "für" is related to "verkaufen", "um" to "die eine". Besides, there's a case of double preposition "bis auf" (meaning "including" or "excluding") , which is correct. (But then again, this may also be a case of a set phrase)


You're right! In German double prepositions are possible and allowed, but only when each preposition has its own unique function.
For example:
"Ich gehe zum Laden" = I go to the shop. (This implies I go into it)
"Ich gehe bis zum Laden (und biege dort rechts ab)" = I walk up to the shop (and then turn right). 

"Ich gehe zu in den Laden" = I go to into the shop.  This is wrong because both prepositions 'zu' and 'in' describe the same function (in a slightly different manner).

Similarly, in "etwas für einen Betrag verkaufen" and "etwas um einen Betrag verkaufen" both prepositions perform the same function, hence you can use one or the other but not both at the same time.

And of course, if the same word has a different grammatical function it might be allowed again, e.g:
"Er verkaufte die Puppen, um für sein neues Hobby Platz zu machen." (He sold his dolls to make space for his new hobby). Here 'für' is a preposition but 'um' is used as a conjunction (I think).
and
"...verkauft sich für um die eine Million Yen" 'für' is a preposition and 'um die' is an adverbial.


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## bearded

Sowka said:


> Hello
> 
> 
> I agree with you; to me, it sounds very odd (although I understand manfy's and berndf's reasoning). I would certainly not say "um die ein Jahr" (or "um die ein Meter", to take a masculine example). I would use this phrase only with feminine or plural nouns. In the other cases, I'd use "etwa" or something similar. On the Internet, you can find many instances of "um die ein Jahr", but all those that I've seen involve another structure, like "um die ein Jahr zuvor eingegangene Allianz" etc.


It is good to know that even to (some) German ear that expression sounds odd, so my remark was not so ''überspannt'' after all.


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## Schimmelreiter

manfy said:


> 'um die' is an adverbial.


It's not:


berndf said:


> _um die eine Million Yen-Marke herum_


So _um_ is a preposition. 
Or are you actually saying _um die eine Million Yen_ is an adverbial, which is the case indeed? The fun part being that it's an adverbial embedded in an adverbial _(für *um die eine Million Yen*)._


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## bearded

@ Schimmelreiter
You say that 'um die' is not an adverbial, therefore it must be a preposition+accusative.  Consequently, expressions like 'für um die 1Mio.Yen' or 'für um die 1000Yen', where 'die' is accusative singular/plural, should be correct, whereas 'um die ein Jahr' should be wrong.  If this is what you think, then your opinion is contrary to Manfy's and berndf's. I hope that you native speakers can find an agreement, for the sake of foreigners' orientation.


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## Schimmelreiter

bearded man said:


> @ Schimmelreiter
> You say that 'um die' is not an adverbial, therefore it must be a preposition+accusative. Consequently, expressions like 'für um die 1Mio.Yen' or 'für um die 1000Yen', where 'die' is accusative singular/plural, should be correct, whereas 'um die ein Jahr' should be wrong. If this is what you think, then your opinion is contrary to Manfy's and berndf's. I hope that you native speakers can find an agreement, for the sake of foreigners' orientation.


The accusative is the elliptical _die Marke_, see my quotation of berndf. It doesn't work with _*um die ein Jahr_ because virtual agreement with an ellipsis doesn't work, so it only works with plural _(um die zwei Jahre).

_The interesting question is whether _während um die zwei Jahre_ can be allowed, where the first preposition governs the genitive but can't here.


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## manfy

Schimmelreiter said:


> It's not:
> 
> So _um_ is a preposition.
> Or are you actually saying _um die eine Million Yen_ is an adverbial, which is the case indeed? The fun part being that it's an adverbial embedded in an adverbial _(für *um die eine Million Yen*)._


Indeed, in Bernd's full phrase "_um die eine Million Yen-Marke herum_" it looks like 'um' takes the function of a preposition.
So I looked it up on my PC dictionary (Merriam Webster-based), but it calls '*um...* _accusative_ *herum*' an adverb, too !??

Anyways, the main reason I called it an adverbial was because it has the very same meaning as 'ungefähr', which is an adverb; hence, my conclusion that the shortened set phrase 'um die' must be an adverbial.
But probably you're right, since 'um die' by itself makes little sense maybe it should be better defined as '*um die* + _numeral_ [+_ countable noun_]'.


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## Kay Champs

Sorry I've been away. But I've caught up with you all. Amazing there's so much to learn about this topic that I thought would be much simpler.


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## Kay Champs

I wonder why eigentlich "um die" and not "um den".  As has been discussed above, mascular nouns could just as well follow. Maybe it's because as earlier mentioned, "die" is supposed to be plural and covers both gender. That's why "um die ein (singular)" sounds a bit odd.


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## manfy

First off a note to non-native speakers who are astounded, how a simple word such as 'um' could possibly be controversial among native speakers.

1) According to Grimm's dictionary, this word has been in documented use at least since the 13th century and its use has undergone many changes. Ontop of that it's safe to assume that those changes were not always geographically homogeneous, which would also be reflected in actual current-day use in different german speaking regions.

2) According to Duden, there remain at least 3 different grammatical main functions for the word 'um' in modern German:
Preposition, Conjunction, Adverb
Comparing these entries and their usage samples shows that some of these functions seem to be overlapping, meaning, in some complex sentences it's open to the viewing angle of the analyzer whether it's interpreted as a preposition, conjunction or adverb. This does not change the actual meaning of the word in that sentence, but it can change the terminology used for some of the logical elements in that sentence, e.g. adverbial phrase vs. prepositional phrase and so on.

3) The set phrase '*um die* + _numeral_ [+_ optional countable noun_] [+ _usually elliptical _*herum*]' has evolved over a long period of time (min 100 years, since my granny, born in the 1890's, already used it).
I do not know the actual origin, but I'd guess it would be something along the lines of Bernd's explanatory full phrase "_*um die *numeral+noun -Marke *herum*_".

The only, seemingly related entry I found in Grimm is this:_B. bei zeitbestimmungen dient um meistens nur der ungefähren festlegung um einen zeitpunkt (vgl. oben A 1 b), so auch ags., s. Bosworth-Toller 1294.
_​_1) gewöhnlich bei bezeichnung eines zeitpunktes: umpi super (media nocte) ahd. gl. 2, 664, 22; umpi sub (casum hiemis) ebda 629, 38; umbi thia sextun inti umbi thia niuntun zit Tatian 109, 1, hier öfter, stets als übertragung von circa, während der lat. abl. temp. mit zi oder in wiedergegeben wird; umbe mitten tag (in meridie) Williram 13, 2 Seemüller;
_​_[...]_​_umb die vierden wach der nacht erste deutsche bibel 1, 144 lit. ver.; sie seint am morgen vol, ... z dem schlaftrunck vol und umb die x seind sie wider vol Keisersberg sünden des munds (1518) 5b; znacht um die elfen Th. Platter 90 Boos;
_​
4) It is not overly surprising that a historically set phrase does not always comply or fit into the current day grammar rules in every aspect.
But in my experience, for the general public this is usually not a good enough reason to stop using this phrase.


So, for the sake of peace between grammarians and the opposite group of more habitual, idiomatic language users, it's probably best to describe the construct '*um die* + *ein/e* +_ singular noun_' (e.g. um die ein Jahr) as being colloquial, after all!


Final info for those who are curious: I think, the reason why I, as a native speaker, find nothing wrong with a phrase like 'um die ein Jahr' lies in the fact that I picked up this use well before I even knew what grammar is, i.e. in my pre-school years from 1-6! 
As such it has become 'normal' for the language center in my brain and the phrase is automatically excluded from further grammatical analysis.
Grownup learners of a second language often do not have this liberty because their brains automatically and subconsciously run every phrase through a part of the brain that tries to make logical and grammatical sense of it.


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## perpend

manfy said:


> So, for the sake of peace between grammarians and the opposite group of more habitual, idiomatic language users, it's probably best to describe the construct '*um die* + *ein/e* +_ singular noun_' (e.g. um die ein Jahr) as being colloquial, after all!
> 
> 
> Final info for those who are curious: I think, the reason why I, as a native speaker, find nothing wrong with a phrase like 'um die ein Jahr' lies in the fact that I picked up this use well before I even knew what grammar is, i.e. in my pre-school years from 1-6!
> As such it has become 'normal' for the language center in my brain and the phrase is automatically excluded from further grammatical analysis.
> Grownup learners of a second language often do not have this liberty because their brains automatically and subconsciously run every phrase through a part of the brain that tries to make logical and grammatical sense of it.



I would use "um die ein Jahr" as a non-native, manfy, for the reasons you've stated. I've got your back.  You are not wrong, and in fact, you make a lot of sense.


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## manfy

perpend said:


> I would use "um die ein Jahr" as a non-native, manfy, for the reasons you've stated. I've got your back.  You are not wrong, and in fact, you make a lot of sense.


Thanks, perpend, for being the first supporter of my 'um die ein Jahr'-club and its parole 'Non-grammarians are fighting back!'
...might I be able to interest you in a membership in this club for the minor annual fee of xx,xxx Euros...???  Just kidding!!

But seriously, I'm not trying to promote this grammatically questionable use of 'um die + singular', I'm just saying that it *is* actually in use and German learners might want to keep that in the back of their minds, in case they hear it from native speakers.
Without hesitation, I'd recommend to speakers to replace 'um die ein Jahr' with the grammatically sound 'ungefähr ein Jahr', 'grob ein Jahr' or similar because the latter versions have no semantic difference to the former whatsoever.


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## berndf

manfy said:


> But seriously, I'm not trying to promote this grammatically questionable use of 'um die + singular', I'm just saying that it *is* actually in use...


It is in deed. Sentences like
_Das kostet so um die ein Euro_​ are quite normal.


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## bearded

Special thanks to Manfy for his splendid explanation in #35, which convinced me.
Ab heute ist für mich ''um die ein Jahr'' kein Skandal mehr.


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## berndf

''Um die ein Jahr'' somehow sounds stranger than "um die ein Euro". I don't know exactly why. But there are clear idiomatic examples of "um die ein <m/n noun>" and that's what counts.


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## Schimmelreiter

berndf said:


> ''Um die ein Jahr'' somehow sounds stanger than "um die ein Euro". I don't know exactly why. But there are clear idiomatic examples of "um die ein <m/n noun>" and that's what counts.


There seems to be "felt plurality" in amounts of money even when the amount is one. So it works with _ein Euro _but I definitely don't think it does with _ein Jahr._


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## Kay Champs

Let me join bearded man in thanking manfy for the comprehensive explanation including own experience way back when.


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## bearded

I would be curious to know what other native speakers think about the issue raised by Schimmelreiter: is the expression _während um die zwei Jahre_ (with an initial preposition requiring genitive, but then no genitive following) correct or admitted?
I also find his remark in #41 about 'felt plurality' very interesting.


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## Glockenblume

bearded man said:


> I would be curious to know what other native speakers think about the issue raised by Schimmelreiter: is the expression _während um die zwei Jahre_ (with an initial preposition requiring genitive, but then no genitive following) correct or admitted?


It sounds strange to my ears.


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## Gernot Back

berndf said:


> It is in deed. Sentences like_Das kostet so um die ein Euro_​ are quite normal.



I would never say that.  I'd say:



_Das kostet um die ein*en* Euro_. 
_Die Strecke vom Dom zur Deutzer Brücke beträgt um die ein*en* Kilometer._ 
_Der Durchmesser eines Stecknadelkopfes beträgt um die ein*en* Millimeter._ 

I would use the accusative case here, not because the preposition "um" requires it, but because the verb does.
If we were talking about exact amounts I would say:



_Das kostet (exakt) ein*en* Euro_. 
_Die Strecke vom Dom zur Deutzer Brücke beträgt (genau) ein*en* Kilometer._ 
_Der Durchmesser eines Stecknadelkopfes beträgt (präzise) ein*en* Millimeter._ 

I agree that "um die" is a fixed phrase, probably derived from an omission of a determinatum like "Marke, Grenze, Schwelle" from a compund word.



_Das kostet um die Ein-Euro-Marke_. 
_Die Strecke vom Dom zur Deutzer Brücke beträgt um die Ein-Kilometer-Schwelle._ 
_Der Durchmesser eines Stecknadelkopfes beträgt um die Ein-Millimeter-Grenze._


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## Kay Champs

Wow, Gernot has now added a whole new dimension to the thread!


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## Liam Lew's

bearded man said:


> I would be curious to know what other native speakers think about the issue raised by Schimmelreiter: is the expression _während um die zwei Jahre_ (with an initial preposition requiring genitive, but then no genitive following) correct or admitted?
> I also find his remark in #41 about 'felt plurality' very interesting.


It also sounds very strange to my ears. I agree with Schimmelreiter in this discussion. "um die ein Jahr" is not possible for me. I also like the approach about "felt plurality". For me Gernots "Das kostet um die einen Euro" sounds wrong.


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## Schimmelreiter

Gernot Back said:


> _Das kostet um die ein*en* Euro_.


Would you say
_Das kostet um die einen Euro fünfzig._
or
_Das kostet um die ein Euro fünfzig._


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## Gernot Back

Schimmelreiter said:


> Would you say
> _Das kostet um die einen Euro fünfzig._
> or
> _Das kostet um die ein Euro fünfzig._


I would say the first (both, with or without _um die_)


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## Glockenblume

Mir erscheint Gernots Satz auch als richtiger. Dass man den anderen Satz (_"Das kostet um die ein Euro fünfzig") _im Ohr hat, kommt
 m. E. daher, dass dieser gleichlautend ist mit "_Das kostet um die ein'n Euro fünfzig"_.
Sagen würde ich trotzdem nicht "_Das kostet um die einen Euro fünfzig"_:
Entweder würde ich das "_die_" weglassen, oder ich würde sagen: "_Das kostet etwa einen Euro fünfzig"_.

*Moderator note:* The topic "Das kostet ein'n Euro / einen Euro / ein Euro" (discussion in German) has been split off to this new thread.


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