# 'Sergei' or 'Sergey'



## SMD62

I have the misfortune of having this first name and after 20 years of experimenting I still haven't found the spelling that people in US and Canada could pronounce and spell with few problems! I left Russia when FRENCH was the transliteration language in documents, so my first name was spelt "SERGUEI" in my passport. No one can spell that here and I mostly use 'Sergey' as this is how it was spelt on my US Visa back when I lived in Russia. The US official told me then they didn't care how the name was spelt in English in my Russian 'foreign' passport and that 'Sergey' was how they did it. 

Recently I've been noticing that 'Sergey' is kind of obsolete and is used when referring to people living in earlier times. 'Sergei' is the more modern way and is actually closer to the Library of Congress rules. 

I"m not going to even say much about spelling of my last name which has 'TCH' in it! Curiously enough I live near Kitchener Ontario Canada and somehow local people have no problem with saying and spelling kiTCHener but once I tell them my last name which has TCH (Russian Ч) in the middle, they freak out!

So, I guess the question I'm asking in this super long post (sorry!) is this: should I call myself 'Sergei' or "Sergey" and how shall I spell the Russian Ч in my last name: as TCH or simply as CH. My last name is **ATCHE*. Interestingly enough, guys who immigrated to Canada after me - when ENGLISH was used for transliteration have totally different spelling in their documents. I know a guy named TKACHEV and that's exactly how his name is spelt in his passport because he immigrated after 2000. He would have been TKATCHEV had he immigrated earlier.


----------



## morzh

1. There are no spelling rules in English when it comes to foreign last names. Everyone spells (at least here in the US) any way he wants.

For instance, a person with name "Карлицкий" is spelled "Karlicky" which, read back, will yield "Карлики".
Your last name I would spell as "Tkachyov" (as you have "ё" In there and it is stressed).

2. I would not use name "Sergey" in English, as together with Yakov it sounds bad, and is used to tease people (especially with kids). I would change it for "Serge" which is French / European version of the same name. 
Should you still want "Sergey" - this is how it is spelled.


----------



## SMD62

What about 'SERGEI'? When I was talking to a US recruiter at the trucking company I work for now and she saw my name was spelt SERGUEI, she started calling me SERGIE over the phone. When I asked what first name I should use (Serge, Sergei, Sergey, Serguei), the recruiter said, "I like SERGIE"  I actually like it too - it sounds like Seryozha or СЕРЕЖА. I remember that my Mom would always call me СЕРГЕЙ (Sergey) when she was angry with me, and СЕРЕЖА (Seriozha) when she was in a good mood


----------



## morzh

SMD62 said:


> What about 'SERGEI'?



It is up to you. You are a big boy now - you can decide which way you like to see it spelled, and which way you like it to sound.

For instance, when I got out of the USSR, my name was spelled exactly like Gorbachev's - Mikhail. I did not like it, it did not sound anything close to how it was pronounced in Russian, and I already was going by "Mike", so, when given a chance (getting citizenship - you can change the name right there on the spot without any other legal actions), I simply made it "Michael".

As long as you like the sound, spell it any way you want, just make sure that the rest of the folks will pronounce it correctly the first time. English is know for allowing any word to be read in multiple ways, but the first time people try to use some rules (however scarce and murky), and only when corrected, will pronounce it the way you want.


----------



## SMD62

morzh said:


> As long as you like the sound, spell it any way you want, just make sure that the rest of the folks will pronounce it correctly the first time.



You're lucky to have a name that is common both in US and Russia! Mike, Alex, Kate, George (Georgiy) ... these names need very little 'modding' to be accepted here. I used to work here with a guy named 'Igor' (he was from Moldova). Some local folks actually made jokes about his name because of the 2008 animated movie by the same name.


----------



## Maroseika

Why not Serguey? It cannot be misspelled if read according to the rules, while Sergey can be read Sɜːdʒi.


----------



## LilianaB

Why a misfortune, it is a beautiful name. I would spell it Sergey, because this way it is pronounced right.I mostly see it spelled this way in the US.


----------



## ahvalj

Let's look at this situation from the opposite side: why should you care how somebody mispronounces your name or surname? Those familiar with you will eventually do it right, especially if you can insist. My surname is hardly pronounceable in any human language, and still any foreign person who needs to address me, learns how to do it (though, honestly, not so many need to, but that's another story). From my personal perspective, changing the name to accommodate it to the habits of the locals is a little bit tasteless, and when some Курбанбабай Алимаджонович becomes Константин Александрович, it causes no less dissonance anyway when you see him personally and hear him speaking. As they sing, «не стоит прогибаться под изменчивый мир, пусть лучше он прогнётся под нас».


----------



## Maroseika

But if basing only on the spelling rules, what variant for Сергей you think the best in English?


----------



## ahvalj

Maroseika said:


> But if basing only on the spelling rules, what variant for Сергей you think the best in English?


Just compare how many words in English end on "i" vs. "y".


----------



## Maroseika

ahvalj said:


> Just compare how many words in English end on "i" vs. "y".



My main concern is ge or gue.


----------



## Syline

I know that "Сергей" is traditionally spelled "Sergey" in English. As for pronunciation, why bother so much? It is a beautiful Russian name, so teach people to pronounce it properly, the way it's pronounced in Russian, corrected to the English phonetics, of course.


----------



## Maroseika

Instead of teaching people, why not writing it such a way that it would be spelled correct just according with the rules?
If only this is possible, of course.


----------



## LilianaB

I personally think it should be just transcribed from the Cyrillic into the Latin alphabet, that's all. People should be taught then how to pronounce it.


----------



## SMD62

Maroseika said:


> Why not Serguey? It cannot be misspelled if read according to the rules, while Sergey can be read Sɜːdʒi.



'Serguei' then makes more sense. The 'U' after the 'G' makes people say it as 'GG' and not "DJ". Check out 'GUEST' but 'GESTURE'; 'GUESS' but 'GEM'. So, 'G' plus 'U' makes it 'G'. This is how my name was originally spelled in my Russian 'foreign' passport when I was leaving Russia in 1997: SERGUEI.


----------



## Albertovna

Transliteration systems are numerous. I like that by MAIK "Nauka" Interperiodica:
a, b, v, g, d, e (for е, ё), zh, z, i (и, й), k, l, m, n, o, p, r, s, t, u, f, kh, ts, ch, sh, shch, " (ъ), y, ' (ь), e, yu, ya
So, Sergei **ache*.
  As regards the pronunciation of the first name, I am for Serge, Sergie, and Serezha. Sergei sounds not very good.


----------



## SMD62

ahvalj said:


> Just compare how many words in English end on "i" vs. "y".



Agreed. Most English words that end with a 'i' sound, use 'Y' letter, not 'I'. "Day", 'May", "Ray". Usually if you see an 'I' at the end, there will be an 'AI' sound somewhere. I agree with American passport clerk who issued me the US Visa back in 1995 in Moscow, RUSSIA. They spelled it as 'SERGEY'.


----------



## SMD62

Albertovna said:


> Transliteration systems are numerous. I like that by MAIK "Nauka" Interperiodica:
> a, b, v, g, d, e (for е, ё), zh, z, i (и, й), k, l, m, n, o, p, r, s, t, u, f, kh, ts, ch, sh, shch, " (ъ), y, ' (ь), e, yu, ya
> So, Sergei **ache*.
> As regards the pronunciation of the first name, I am for Serge and Sergie. Sergei sounds not very good.



I remember visiting Herbalife offices near London in UK once as 'consultant/translator' back in 90ies. The office girls were being very polite and did their best saying my first name close to what it sounds in Russian (Sergei). I saw them struggling though and I said, "If it's easier, you can call me 'SERGE'." You should have seen the relief on their faces  They understood 'Serge'; they didn't understand 'Sergei'. After all, France is a stone's throw away from them, and 'Serge' is a known French name.


----------



## SMD62

ahvalj said:


> From my personal perspective, changing the name to accommodate it to the habits of the locals is a little bit tasteless...



Believe it or not guys, I tried it  I was so disillusioned with Russia when I left for Canada in 1997, that I decided to distance myself as much as possible from the country, its language, and its culture. So I looked online for some advice and found this site. For a fee they offer to help you select a 'balanced' name, something that fits you better than your original name - from the point of view of Kabalarian philosophy. So I became ... 'Zayne'. Changed all my documents and everything. Well, it didn't work. First of all, most people would spell it as 'Zane', and then they would look at my Russian mug and start wondering why a European looking guy has a Muslim name  So, I used it for a year and a half and then paid another 200 bucks to the Government to change it back. For some reason I changed it back to the way it was originally spelled: Serguei. So, no - choosing a name that would be easier to say doesn't work. You have to stay who you are. 

Having said that, note that SECOND GENERATION immigrants (those who are born in US and Canada) rarely use a native first name; they keep the weird family name  but the parents give them a typical American first name. Eg: Mark Zhong or Steve Rabinovich or Mary Volkov.


----------



## LilianaB

I think Sergey sounds very good, but I do not like most nicknames.


----------



## Albertovna

LilianaB said:


> I think Sergey sounds very good


 The first syllable - yes. The second one is suggestive of... erm...


----------



## LilianaB

I don't think anything strange in it. Like Yesenin. As a nickname, I think Serge is nice.


----------



## Maroseika

So is it that  *Serguey *is the most appropriate variant? I mean will it be spelled by any English native as Сергей if he just follows English spelling rules?


----------



## Syline

Albertovna said:


> The first syllable - yes. The second one is suggestive of... erm...


У вас и в русском Сергей ассоциируется с геем? 
Причем, хочется заметить, что в английском языке это слово пишется: g*a*y, в то время, как в русском - стопроцентное совпадение по буквам. И ниче, имя пользуется популярностью в России.


----------



## SMD62

LilianaB said:


> I think Sergey sounds very good, but I do not like most nicknames.



I worked in real estate in Moscow when I lived there and I once met an American named ... Sergey Riabokobylko. His parents immigrated and he grew up in US but then he came back as American and started a real estate brokerage. He's a big shot over there now (google the name and see) which shows that even extremely unusual names (by US and Canadian standards)  cannot hinder a motivated person.


----------



## LilianaB

I think you, misunderstood me. I do not like short forms of names, usually. Sergey is a full form.


----------



## SMD62

Maroseika said:


> So is it that  *Serguey *is the most appropriate variant? I mean will it be spelled by any English native as Сергей if he just follows English spelling rules?



I'll try to experiment at the Starbucks today... You know when they ask, "May I have your name, sir?" Instead of my usual '007', I'll say "Sergey" and then check the cup to see how they spelled it


----------



## Albertovna

Syline said:


> Причем, хочется заметить, что в английском языке это слово пишется: g*a*y, в то время, как в русском - стопроцентное совпадение по буквам.


Вот. Пишется. А я говорю о произношении, о созвучии. Для англосаксов также неприятны имена Настя (созвучно с nasty "противный") и Яков (yuk "фу").


----------



## LilianaB

I do not think so. I cannot talk for everybody, but Nastassja is a very nice name, quite admired in the US. There is nothing wrong with Yakov, a very popular name among Jewish people mostly, in New York.


----------



## Syline

Albertovna said:


> Вот. Пишется. А я говорю о произношении, о созвучии. Для англосаксов также неприятны имена Настя (созвучно с nasty "противный") и Яков (yuk "фу").


Так а в русском "-гей" в "Сергей" вы произносите как-то по другому, нежели слово "гей"? Нет созвучия? 

А вообще, ерунда все это. Если то же имя Настя будет восприниматься англосаксами не иначе как русское имя, то всякие левые ассоциации будет настолько несущественны, что никто даже мысленно не заострит на них внимание.


----------



## Maroseika

Syline said:


> Если то же имя Настя будет восприниматься англосаксами не иначе как русское имя, то всякие левые ассоциации будет настолько несущественны, что никто даже мысленно не заострит на них внимание.



Как сказать. Имя Сруль вряд ли способно не привлечь внимания носителя русского языка, даром что не воспринимается как русское.


----------



## ahvalj

Well, in Russia during many decades English or English-sounding names with "j" and "ch" are popular among dog owners for their pets. Does this imply that a person from an English-speaking country when living here should modify his or her name to avoid confusion? I think it only depends on the degree the person percepts him/herself as a self-sufficient individuality.


----------



## morzh

Syline said:


> Так а в русском "-гей" в "Сергей" вы произносите как-то по другому, нежели слово "гей"? Нет созвучия?
> 
> А вообще, ерунда все это. Если то же имя Настя будет восприниматься англосаксами не иначе как русское имя, то всякие левые ассоциации будет настолько несущественны, что никто даже мысленно не заострит на них внимание.




You may or may not know it, but there are problems with certain names in any language.
In particular, in English such names from Russian are "Sergey" and "Yakov". "Sergey" sounds close to "sir gay", and "Yakov" somehow (do not know how, but when I was told that I ran it by some Americans and they confirmed it) associates with "jerk off".


----------



## morzh

LilianaB said:


> I do not think so. I cannot talk for everybody, but Nastassja is a very nice name, quite admired in the US. There is nothing wrong with Yakov, a very popular name among Jewish people mostly, in New York.



There is a problem with Yakov. I myself did not believe it until I asked around.


----------



## rusita preciosa

Well, luckily, you can have one name in the documents and go by another one. I am Ekaterina and I go by Katia (I really like it + it is a bit more palatable for locals). Katia is the name that is on my business cards, medical records, resume, voicemail etc... If someone asks about the difference, I usually say "it's like Robert and Bob" and people are quite satisfied with that explanation. So you can easily be officially *Serguei* and go by *Serge* in everyday life. 



ahvalj said:


> I think it only depends on the degree the person percepts him/herself as a self-sufficient individuality.


It tells me that you have absolutely no personal experience of leaving with a different name every single day of your life. Katia is an easy name, right? Well, I heard it all: Kат*и*я, К*э*тийя, Kат*ай*я, Kот*э*я (latter being probably the most exotic one). Most of the time I have to say it twice and still need to spell it. It really gets old after a while. So, my system is: if I do not care how the person pronounces my name (hairdresser, Starbucks, restaurant reservation etc…), then I’m Kate. If I do care, I make an effort so that the person learns the proper pronunciation.

Honestly, if in an English-speaking country I had a name like Yakov (yak / jack-off), Nastya/Anastassia (nasty, anesthesia), Oksana (ox), I would change it without thinking a second - everyday struggle is just not worth the... (whatever the value of an appellation someone else randomly selected at your birth).


----------



## SMD62

morzh said:


> There is a problem with Yakov. I myself did not believe it until I asked around.



Wait a sec... Maybe that's why I see more 'Sergei's. When it's spelled like that, it might help people NOT to associate it with 'gay' (which happens when you spell it as 'Sergey'). The pic below shows the grave of Sergei Rachmaninoff and how his name is spelled 

.


----------



## ahvalj

rusita preciosa said:


> I am Ekaterina and I go by Katia


By the way, why Ekaterina? Was your Russian name Экатерина?


----------



## rusita preciosa

ahvalj said:


> By the way, why Ekaterina? Was your Russian name Экатерина?


Not sure I understand the question. You mean as opposed to Yekaterina? - simply because I find it extremely ugly spelled with an initial Y in Latinic.


----------



## morzh

SMD62 said:


> Wait a sec... Maybe that's why I see more 'Sergei's. When it's spelled like that, it might help people NOT to associate it with 'gay' (which happens when you spell it as 'Sergey'). The pic below shows the grave of Sergei Rachmaninoff and how his name is spelled
> 
> .



Well, what matters more is how it sounds vs. how it is spelled. 

PS. Actually, if someone did not know how to red "Sergei" he would read it as "Ser-dzhey" or even "Ser-dzhee-eye". 
Luckily, Am. English is liberal this way.


----------



## gvozd

Во рассусолили... Этак с любым именем заморочки будут. Вряд ли я буду жить за границей, но, допустим, если я попаду в подобную ситуацию, как быть мне? Иван-Ivan-John? Айвэном быть прикольно, наверное


----------



## LilianaB

I think it should be Sergey, because Sergei changes the pronunciation of the name to short i, I do not know how to explain it better.There is nothing about gay in the name spelled Sergey. Plus more intelligent people in the English speaking world know that it is a Russian name, if they know Sergey Rachmaninoff.


----------



## SMD62

Пообщайся в иностранной среде и тебе быстро надоест как англо-говорящие коверкают твое русское имя. А "Иван" я бы попробовал писать VANYUSHA или VANYA чисто чтобы поржать с их реакции. Китайцы давно на это дело рукой махнули. У меня есть приятель настоящее имя которого Xingzhi. Фамилия - SUN. Так он везде (и на работе и с друзьями) обзывает себя MARK.


----------



## SMD62

LilianaB said:


> I think it should be Sergey, because Sergei changes the pronunciation of the name to short i, I do not know how to explain it better.There is nothing about gay in the name spelled Sergey. Plus more intelligent people in the English speaking world know that it is a Russian name, if they know Sergey Rachmaninoff.



Well, actually it's "SERGEI RACHMANINOFF". He became a US citizen shortly before his death and that's how his name is spelled in Wikipedia AND on his tomb stone.


----------



## gvozd

SMD62 said:


> Пообщайся в иностранной среде и тебе быстро надоест как англо-говорящие коверкают твое русское имя.



Чтобы они его не коверкали, Вам придется обучить англоговорящих русскому произношению. В английском и русском нет ни одного одинакового звука. Ну или почти ни одного.


----------



## LilianaB

See, in New York there are a lot of Jewish people and I think this is why people perceive this name fist of all as a Biblical name and only then as something else. I do not know in fact, but this is my impression.


----------



## Maroseika

gvozd said:


> Иван-Ivan-John?



Evun.


----------



## SMD62

rusita preciosa said:


> Well, luckily, you can have one name in the documents and go by another one.



Yeah, I know. That's the beauty of living in the West. No one cares how you call yourself and if it's the same name as in your documents. I knew one Italian guy (second generation immigrant). He was born in Canada but his parents decided to keep up the traditions and called him "Corrado". Guess what? He goes by the name 'Charlie'. This is the name on his business cards, voice mail, resume etc. His driver's license says 'Corrado'.

You can even ask your bank to make a note of your new 'name' (or new spelling) in the file so that people can write checks using your new 'identity'. My bank has all my variants: Sergei, Sergey, Serguei. I'm thinking of adding 'Ray' or 'Max' to the mix


----------



## LilianaB

I have never had any problems with my name in the United States. I had more problems in Europe.   I think my mother took it from an American movie, but it was supposed to be spelled without the a, I like it this way, however.


----------



## gvozd

Maroseika said:


> Evun.



Вы, батенька, большой оригинал


----------



## LilianaB

It just depended who translated the papers. It does not mean that this spelling is more correct than Sergey.


----------



## Syline

Maroseika said:


> Как сказать. Имя Сруль вряд ли способно не привлечь внимания носителя русского языка, даром что не воспринимается как русское.


Сруль тока по первости звучит колоритно (кстати, у меня одновременно пошла ассоциация с рулем), но можно привыкнуть, воспринимать именно как еврейское имя. Также пусть и американцы привыкают к русским именам, к их звучанию, дабы впредь не возникали нехорошие ассоциации. Подстраиваться, комплексовать, стесняться своего русского имени перед иностранцами неправильно, по моему мнению.  

Верно там заметил ahvalj. Вряд ли какой-нибудь американец Джек, приехавший в Россию, будет париться по поводу того, что у него собачье имя, и будет менять его на человеческое русское.


----------



## rusita preciosa

LilianaB said:


> I have never had any problems with my name in the United States. I had more problems in Europe.


Interestingly enough, I have just the opposite experience. Outside of the US (incl. English-speeaking countries like Australia and UK), people do not have problem reading either my full name or the nickname. In the US Katia turns into Kateeya, and Ekaterina... they I don't even try.


----------



## LilianaB

My name is just more common in the US, it is a quite common American name without the final a, not that often used any  more. My last names however I would not like to mention. People do not even try to pronounce them.


----------



## Maroseika

gvozd said:


> Вы, батенька, большой оригинал



Ну нет, так нет, дело-то хозяйское. Но по-моему, прочитано будет как раз правильно.


----------



## SMD62

Conducted the Starbucks experiment  Ordered a tall Americano and asked the young girl behind the counter to try spelling my name on the cup. She said she was afraid she'd make a mistake. So, her colleague jumped in and asked me to say it in English. I did and she spelled it: SERGEY (with the 'y'); which might show that using 'y' at the end feels more natural to English-speaking people.

BTW, her own name was 'Lyndsay' and people 'constantly misspell the name'. So this spelling thing is not limited to names of immigrants only.


----------



## SMD62

Syline said:


> ...Вряд ли какой-нибудь американец Джек, приехавший в Россию, будет париться по поводу того, что у него собачье имя, и будет менять его на человеческое русское.



Эттт-то точно. Американцы считают что все вокруг владеют английским. Они ни под кого не подстраиваются. Меня часто хоккей выручают. Почти все здесь знают нашего бывшего NHL игрока по имени Сергей Федоров (Sergei Fedorov).


----------



## Maroseika

Syline said:


> Сруль тока по первости звучит колоритно (кстати, у меня одновременно пошла ассоциация с рулем), но можно привыкнуть, воспринимать именно как еврейское имя. Также пусть и американцы привыкают к русским именам, к их звучанию, дабы впредь не возникали нехорошие ассоциации. Подстраиваться, комплексовать, стесняться своего русского имени перед иностранцами неправильно, по моему мнению.



Попробуйте объяснить это ребенку, которого дразнят в школе. Несколько таких школьных лет могут поломать человеку психику на всю жизнь. Этим лучше не шутить.


----------



## gvozd

А как в Америке живется американцам, носящим имя Dick?


----------



## SMD62

Wikipedia has an interesting article about famous Russians and their names spelled in English. Here's the link.


----------



## ahvalj

SMD62 said:


> That's the beauty of living in the West. No one cares how you call yourself and if it's the same name as in your documents. I knew one Italian guy (second generation immigrant). He was born in Canada but his parents decided to keep up the traditions and called him "Corrado". Guess what? He goes by the name 'Charlie'. This is the name on his business cards, voice mail, resume etc. His driver's license says 'Corrado'.


«Этот стих вполне приемлем и в русском языке» © :
http://stanis-sadal.livejournal.com/229229.html


----------



## ahvalj

rusita preciosa said:


> Not sure I understand the question. You mean as opposed to Yekaterina? - simply because I find it extremely ugly spelled with an initial Y in Latinic.


Well, I don't hope to change your opinion here, but linguistically "Ekaterina" is just wrong. It's like writing Юрий as "Ürij" when transliterating this name in German or Яков as "Äkov" in Finnish. Plus, I find "y" to be the most beautiful letter in the Latin alphabet ,-)


----------



## morzh

gvozd said:


> А как в Америке живется американцам, носящим имя Dick?



Хорошо живется. Если не считатрь угроз импичмента и проч.  В таком случае к имени "Дик" прибавляется еще что-то, вот как в данном - "Трики Дики".
Как ни странно, над "Диками" не издеваются особо.
Однако, при случае, да - могут.

Ну и, надо же понимать - подбные проблемы в основном возникают у детей, а не у взрослых. К тому же Дик, как ум. от Ричард - довольно популярное местние имя, что сильно уменьшает эффект дразнилок, тогда как в случае с необычным именем это будет по-другому.

Я работал с инженером, пожилым мужиком, из Белл Лэбс, по имени Дик - как-то и в голову не приходило никому....


----------



## morzh

ahvalj said:


> Well, I don't hope to change your opinion here, but linguistically "Ekaterina" is just wrong. It's like writing Юрий as "Ürij" when transliterating this name in German or Яков as "Äkov" in Finnish. Plus, I find "y" to be the most beautiful letter in the Latin alphabet ,-)



Yekaterina то Ekaterina is like Yeltsin to Eltsin, and the latter would be "Эльцин". You know who uses that


----------



## LilianaB

Dick is from Richard but some seem to like the name Dick, whereas others call themselves Rick, Ricky, Rich.


----------



## rusita preciosa

ahvalj said:


> linguistically "Ekaterina" is just wrong


See, here is the difference in our approach: I don't care about "linguistically". It's *my* name, I live with it, and I use/spell it however the hell I want.


----------



## rusita preciosa

gvozd said:


> А как в Америке живется американцам, носящим имя Dick?


I do not think there are many Richards younger than 70 who go by Dick. Most people are just Rich/Rick. However, I knew a *Dick Power*, and I have to say is a GREAT name. If I were a Richard Power, I would not use any other name but Dick.


----------



## gvozd

rusita preciosa said:


> *Dick Power*



Oh my god...


----------



## ahvalj

rusita preciosa said:


> I do not think there are many Richards younger than 70 who go by Dick. Most people are just Rich/Rick. However, I knew a *Dick Power*, and I have to say is a GREAT name. If I were a Richard Power, I would not use any other name but Dick.


Am I the only one who thinks that the Americans went a little too far with democratization?


----------



## SMD62

ahvalj said:


> Am I the only one who thinks that the Americans went a little too far with democratization?



Looks so, especially when the loaded question is posted in a forum dealing with the spelling of names.


----------



## ahvalj

SMD62 said:


> Looks so, especially when the loaded question is posted in a forum dealing with the spelling of names.


Почтительно умолкаю.


----------



## SMD62

BTW, as long haul trucker I cross the border into US from Canada once or twice each week. Sometimes they send me to the Customs and I wait in the driver's lounge till my name is called over the PA system. The way my name is spelled in the trucking paperwork is the same way it's spelled in my official IDs: Serguei. To the credit of the US Customs I have to say I yet have to hear them mis-pronounce my name. The spelling looks weird but Americans can read it and say it correctly, at least those beefy para-military types with big guns on their belts


----------



## morzh

Were it Spanish, it would be quite unambiguous. "Gue" in Spanish is "geh" (like in Guevara), "u" being a silent separator between letters that otherwise would be palatalized by "e" (same case with "i").

In English, of course, there are all kinds of possibilities with "guei" part.

1) ghew-eye (Amer.) / gyoo-eye (Brit.)
2) ghew-ee
3) ghee (silent "ue", like in Sprague, Vague).
4) gway
5) ghey.

The last one being yours - Sehr-ghey.

Well, I tend to attribute the accuracy of reading to the big goons with guns' work experience - Canada is known to house tons of Russians / Ukrainians, and there is probably more then just one Serguei crossing the border at Buffalo  every day or so.


----------



## Syline

Maroseika said:


> Попробуйте объяснить это ребенку, которого дразнят в школе. Несколько таких школьных лет могут поломать человеку психику на всю жизнь. Этим лучше не шутить.


Евреи, живущие в России, вряд ли назовут этим именем своих детей.


----------



## Maroseika

Syline said:


> Евреи, живущие в России, вряд ли назовут этим именем своих детей.


Это всего лишь пример. Но представьте, сколько проблем в детстве было, например, у Адольфа Шаевича (1937 г.р.).


----------



## ahvalj

Maroseika said:


> Это всего лишь пример. Но представьте, сколько проблем в детстве было, например, у Адольфа Шаевича (1937 г.р.).


На самом деле такие проблемы могут быть с любым непривычным именем. Бывшую девушку одного моего заграничного приятеля, москвичку, на половину или на четверть чеченку, назвали мусульманским именем при русской фамилии. По рассказам приятеля, это, как и характерные кавказские черты внешности, наложили довольно тяжёлый отпечаток на её жизнь — при больших талантах в разных областях, девушка эта чувствовала некоторую чужеродность и слишком часто, по мнению приятеля, проявляла подавленность и депрессию там, где, на его взгляд, к этому не было никаких оснований. Мне всё же кажется, в повторение высказанного вчера, что это всё — следствие неправильной мотивации родителями: человек не должен воспитываться в такой зависимости от мнения окружающих, наоборот, такие дурацкие, на самом деле, затруднения должны бы, по-хорошему, способствовать выработке большей твёрдости и цельности характера.


----------



## Maroseika

Это похоже на совет сходить в армию для укрепления характера. Незадача, однако, в том, что многие особенности личности носят врожденный (психосоматический) характер, и без учета этого обстоятельства личность можно просто сломать. Поэтому прежде чем давать ребенку оригинальное имя, которое поможет ему впоследствии выработать необычайно твердый и цельный характер, стоит хорошенько подумать.
Но мы снова очень далеко ушли от проблемы Sergey/Sergei.

Мне все-таки очень хотелось бы получить ответ на вопрос: как прочитает носитель английского языка имя Serguey, если будет руководствоваться обычными правилами чтения?


----------



## ahvalj

Maroseika said:


> Это похоже на совет сходить в армию для укрепления характера. Незадача, однако, в том, что многие особенности личности носят врожденный (психосоматический) характер, и без учета этого обстоятельства личность можно просто сломать. Поэтому прежде чем давать ребенку оригинальное имя, которое поможет ему впоследствии выработать необычайно твердый и цельный характер, стоит хорошенько подумать.


Ну, видимо родители могли бы ориентироваться на свои собственные характеры.



Maroseika said:


> Но мы снова очень далеко ушли от проблемы Sergey/Sergei.


На самом деле, нет — мне кажется, вопрос именно в том, насколько вообще носителя имени такие вещи должны волновать.



Maroseika said:


> Мне все-таки очень хотелось бы получить ответ на вопрос: как прочитает носитель английского языка имя Serguey, если будет руководствоваться обычными правилами чтения?


Тогда уж стоит задаться более общим вопросом — как передавать в английской транслитерации русские «ге» и «ги», в том числе и в именах Георгий, Геннадий итп. Мне кажется, уже сложилась система с написанием "ge", "gi", тем более, что исконные слова в самом английском палатализации "g" за редкими исключениями не имеют (get).


----------



## Maroseika

ahvalj said:


> Тогда уж стоит задаться более общим вопросом — как передавать в английской транслитерации русские «ге» и «ги», в том числе и в именах Георгий, Геннадий итп. Мне кажется, уже сложилась система с написанием "ge", "gi", тем более, что исконные слова в самом английском палатализации "g" за редкими исключениями не имеют (get).



Это очень интересный теоретический вопрос, но мне хотелось бы получить у специалиста или носителя языка ответ на совсем другой, практический вопрос: как прочитает носитель английского языка незнакомое слово Serguey, если будет руководствоваться не знанием культурных или этнографических реалий, а только лишь правилами чтения?


----------



## LilianaB

I think they will read it the way they were told to read it by the bearer of that name. There are no strict phonetic rules how things should be read in English. English pronunciation is  customary rather than based on rules.


----------



## Maroseika

LilianaB said:


> I think they will read it the way they were told to read it by the bearer of that name. There are no strict phonetic rules how things should be read in English. English pronunciation is rather customary than based on rules.



Oh, really? No rules - that's just great.
But when one is reading a book, he has nobody to ask about spelling, and the only way is to try read it accoridng to the rules. So my question is: how it will read?


----------



## LilianaB

No, there are no strict rules in English, Maroseika. I think English might be the only Indo-European language where there are no rules. You have to remember how words are read in most cases.


----------



## Albertovna

LilianaB said:


> no rules


The traditional principle of spelling. Russian has it, too, along with the morphological and phonetical ones.

As regards Sergey/Sergei, I suggest one more option - *Sergius*.


----------



## LilianaB

What do you mean?


----------



## Albertovna

LilianaB said:


> What do you mean?


Every language (at least a completely developed, full-fledged one) has rules. It often seems that there are none, but, in fact, much is governed by tradition. In this case the tradition itself is like a rule. It is incorrect to say that English spelling has no rules.


----------



## Albertovna

Maroseika said:


> So my question is: how it will read?


  I think "guei" in Serguei will most probably be read as "gway" in English. This is because, for example, "s*ue*de" is pronounced as "swayd."


----------



## LilianaB

No, I do not agree. English has no strict pronunciation rules: you have to know how to pronounce each word.


----------



## morzh

LilianaB said:


> No, I do not agree. English has no strict pronunciation rules: you have to know how to pronounce each word.



I agree.
The reading in English is very much like it's code of law - based on precedent and very flexible.
There are some set rules, but very few.
The reading of complex words is mostly taught by example.


----------



## ahvalj

Если продолжить издеваться над вопрошающим, я бы предложил вариант "Serghey" — (1) устраняется двусмысленность между «г» и «джь», (2) повышается чувство собственной значимости в связи с меньшей распространённостью подобного написания, (3) облик слова удаляется от написания "gay", (4) масса прочих преимуществ, которые мне пока не приходят в голову. Клиент попадает в изысканную компанию персонажей вроде "Serghey Shapiro", "Serghey Sichkorez" (ума не приложу, как его могли звать здесь) и "Serghey Dolintsa" (http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q="serghey"&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8).


----------



## Carrot Ironfoundersson

> The reading in English is very much like it's code of law - based on precedent and very flexible.



Made me think about _bough_, _dough _and _trough_.


----------



## morzh

Carrot Ironfoundersson said:


> Made me think about _bough_, _dough _and _trough_.


And "plough" / cough / laugh 

Well, One does not have to venture even that far:

read-read (reed-red)
wound-wound (woond - wah-oond)
tear-tear (teer-tehr)
lead-lead (leed - led)
route-route (rah-oot - root).

etc.


----------



## ewie

How we pronounce foreign ~ or even just unfamiliar-to-us ~ words/names is largely done by _analogy_: "Is there anything _like_ it in the English I know?"

So to take a random example rolleyes, if I'm reading a book in English and suddenly a character appears whose name is Gerge [a name I just invented], my brain will go:
_Is there anything like it in the English I know?
Yes, there's George ...
... and there's merge/verge/serge
>>> pronounce it _/'ʤə:ʤ/.
--------------------------
The difference with *Sergei* (as I said in the thread in English Only) is that it's _such_ a familiar name to English-speakers (those of us who don't know of Eisenstein or Diaghilev or Rachmaninov or Witte or Prokofiev will certainly have seen umpteen Cold War films with characters called Sergei; in the UK we even have a bloody advertising _meerkat_ called Sergei ~ even little kids know the name!) that you'd have to look pretty hard to find someone who, coming across the name *Sergei* or *Sergey* in print for the first time, would have no idea what it was supposed to represent.


----------



## gvozd

ewie said:


> that you'd have to look pretty hard to find someone who, coming across the name *Sergei* or *Sergey* in print for the first time, would have no idea what it was supposed to represent.




So why SMD62 is complaining of butchering his name by English-speakers?


----------



## ewie

Does he live in the USA, Gvozd?

EDIT: Ah I see ~ he's the thread-starter.

These rules don't apply in North America


----------



## siuxa

I have to transliterate many names from many sources in many different spellings, so I have to devise a scheme that would fit all cases.

The best approach so far is to use UN-approved transliteration for cyrillic:

Сергей —  Sergej
Юрий — Jurij
Снежана — Snežana

and so on.  Very simple and almost letter for letter.  But you have to live with your latinized name in a specific country this of course is entirely different thing.  Although if I were Сергей I would go for Sergej, since no one would pronounce it the way you like, no matter how you spell it, but transliteration at least reflects the original spelling.


----------



## Syline

*ž
*there's no such letter in English...


----------



## morzh

siuxa said:


> I have to transliterate many names from many sources in many different spellings, so I have to devise a scheme that would fit all cases.
> 
> The best approach so far is to use UN-approved transliteration for cyrillic:
> 
> Сергей —  Sergej
> Юрий — Jurij
> Снежана — Snežana
> 
> and so on.  Very simple and almost letter for letter.  But you have to live with your latinized name in a specific country this of course is entirely different thing.  Although if I were Сергей I would go for Sergej, since no one would pronounce it the way you like, no matter how you spell it, but transliteration at least reflects the original spelling.



Really....how do you suppose English/American folks will deal with "*ž*" ? 

Also, I can promise you "Sergej" will be read by most as "Ser-ghe-dzh", and Yuri - as "Yoo-ri-dzh". Every single time a new person reads that name. Then, of course, you tell them how to pronounce it, but isn't the purpose of spelling to make people read it correctly the first time?
UN spelling is a total bull - there is no such thing as "universal" spelling. Unless simply preserving a name that is already in Latin letters, like when coming from Italian to English, when transliterating from a different alphabet, or, God forbid, abjad/abugida, one spells according to the best usage of rules of pronunciation, should those exist at all, or, like in the case of English - by analogy.
But if English is your target language, you never purposely transliterate "й" as "j".


----------



## Syline

morzh said:


> But if English is your target language, you never purposely transliterate "й" as "j".


Agreed. It's good for German.


----------



## morzh

Ja, ja.


----------



## Syline

Btw, I noticed that siuxa had written *J*urij, so it will likely be pronounced by English speakers as Dzhoo-ridzh


----------



## siuxa

Syline said:


> Agreed. It's good for German.



You can't be good for everyone.  I fail to see why English must be special among hundreds of languages that use Latin script.
If you are Jean, or Jonas, and move to (or, are a native to) Canada, you wouldn't change you name just because that "j" in your name is not pronounced the way it should in English.

Besides, last time I checked, Canada used to have two official languages, with different interpretation of "j" (among many-many other letters of otherwise common alphabet, n'est-ce pas?), so the alleged inaptitude of the locals to uncommon pronunciation schemes is to be dismissed.


----------



## morzh

siuxa said:


> You can't be good for everyone.  I fail to see why English must be special among hundreds of languages that use Latin script.
> If you are Jean, or Jonas, and move to (or, are a native to) Canada, you wouldn't change you name just because that "j" in your name is not pronounced the way it should in English.
> 
> Besides, last time I checked, Canada used to have two official languages, with different interpretation of "j" (among many-many other letters of otherwise common alphabet, n'est-ce pas?), so the alleged inaptitude of the locals to uncommon pronunciation schemes is to be dismissed.




As I said before - we are talking of transliteration. If the name was originally in Latin alphabet, it is usually preserved despite the fact that it will sound differently.

For instance, last name "Rzewski" (Polish) in English sounds like "Rzew-skee", and the owner of the name was OK with it, but originally it sounds like "Жевуски" (Zhe-woo-skee).

Or "Pugliese" - the owner pronounces it as "Puh-glee-see", but it is originally "Poo-lieh-zeh".
People with names originally written in Latin prefer to keep the spelling.

But, again, we are talking of transliteration, in this case - Cyrillic-to-English.


----------



## LilianaB

I think Rzewuski needs another u. It is a very posh name, high nobility usually.


----------



## siuxa

morzh said:


> As I said before - we are talking of transliteration. If the name was originally in Latin alphabet, it is usually preserved despite the fact that it will sound differently.



The question is what one deems to be original. In Latvia all Сергей-s are spelled "Sergejs", in Lithiania "Sergejus" and so on, and, this, aside from the nominative ending, follows the pronunciation closely enough.  That's the one and only spelling of name that this person ever receives — in Latin script.  No document is made in Cyrillic, but our Сергей is russophone and native to his country at the same time.  Shall he change the spelling in Canada in this case?  If yes, on what grounds?


----------



## ajparis

For me, Sergei has a cleaner, more modern look than Sergey. (I take it that you don't really relate to Seryozha anymore, but that would probably be more of of a problem.) As for your last name, it depends on the context of the whole name. I studied with an old ballerina who went at different times by Nemchinova or Nemtchinova, and in the first case some people pronounced the second syllable like the word "chin," and in the second case they made a sneezing kind of sound, like, Nem-ta-cheenova. So there might be problems either way.


----------



## rusita preciosa

siuxa said:


> The best approach so far is to use UN-approved transliteration for cyrillic:


I think you just did not understand the context and the purpose of this thread. You want some universal, "linguistic" rules. My point is the same I made to *ahvaj*: the solution is based not on "linguistic accuracy" or whatever rules you imagine (UN-approved??). It is based on practical, everyday needs of a person who live in a specific country with an unusual name for that language. So it does not matter what how this name is spelled in Lithuanian, UN-approved, German (mine is Katja ), Katakana or an Arabic script. If "UN-approved" does not help making someone's life easier, there is no use for that.


----------



## morzh

siuxa said:


> The question is what one deems to be original. In Latvia all Сергей-s are spelled "Sergejs", in Lithiania "Sergejus" and so on, and, this, aside from the nominative ending, follows the pronunciation closely enough.  That's the one and only spelling of name that this person ever receives — in Latin script.  No document is made in Cyrillic, but our Сергей is russophone and native to his country at the same time.  Shall he change the spelling in Canada in this case?  If yes, on what grounds?



Again, I could only repeat this: in No. American English there are no grounds required, or even exist, for spelling one's name any way the owner of the name sees fit.
As long as the name owner is pleased with the way the name looks on the paper, and at the same time with the way it sounds when pronounced the first time by a stranger, this is the sole ground needed for changing it. Also, the second part is even less important as a written name cannot be changed and is interpreted visually and mentally, whereas the sound of the name is taught to others by the owner in accordance with his/her wishes, and then it will be pronounced correctly.

I think we've over-discussed this topic by now, as it seems to me, we are repeating ourselves.


----------



## LilianaB

I agree with you. I have the best name, because no one can ever pronounce it correctly in its entirety in any language, so I go by my first name. I like the Icelandic way of naming, after the father's first name. This way I would have been Liliana Henriksdottir, and that would be it, as simple as that. In the meantime I go by my name which I cannot even pronounce anymore, but I like it, anyhow. I am not sure how married women are called in Iceland, but this would have been fun, anyhow.


----------



## Syline

siuxa said:


> You can't be good for everyone.


 Actually, in this question you can. For instance, when I write my name in English I spell it Natasha while in German I write Natascha. As for the last name I use the ending -eva for English and -ewa for German. Just traditional transliteration.


----------



## morzh

Syline said:


> Actually, in this question you can. For instance, when I write my name in English I spell it Natasha while in German I write Natascha. As for the last name I use the ending -eva for English and -ewa for German. Just traditional transliteration.



You contradict yourself. "To be good for everyone" means "using the same exact spelling for every language using Latin alphabet". You use different spellings for different languages.
Some last name can be good for everyone, some can't.
Mine actually is - it sounds more or less the same in every Latin-alphabet using language. Simply because it has no digraphs, and long/short vowels are in such positions that makes them sound the same as they would in Latin (u-u, e-e etc). 
Not that I care, I don't. 
But it's not a rule.


----------



## Syline

morzh said:


> You contradict yourself. "To be good for everyone" means "using the same exact spelling for every language using Latin alphabet". You use different spellings for different languages.


I'll try to explain what I meant. 
There's no universal means of transliteration, there's no way of "using the same exact spelling for every language using Latin alphabet" if you want to be good for everyone. It is an impossible situation. So, the only way of being good for everyone is to adapt the spelling of your name to the reading rules of a certain language, thus making it easier to be pronounced by a certain native speaker.    
You see contradiction in my words because for you "to be good for everyone" = "to be good for all", while for me "to be good for everyone" = "to be good for each".


----------



## morzh

Well, OK then. I thought we were talking of a universal spelling, that's good for everyone.

Actually  I was always of the opinion, that the best spelling is the phonetic one.

Anyway, my suggestion to curtail this topis still stands - we can chew this cud 'till time ends, but we started repeating ourselves which is a good sign for ending this.


----------



## LilianaB

No, I do not agree with you, Syline. I think last names should just be transliterated. The option you are proposing would create a lot of confusion in different offices. I think there is more freedom with first names.


----------



## Syline

LilianaB said:


> No, I do not agree with you, Syline. I think last names should just be transliterated. The option you are proposing would create a lot of confusion in different offices. I think there is more freedom with first names.


Что касается документов, это отдельная тема со своими нюансами. Я же говорила просто об удобстве понимания той или иной транслитерации иностранцами.


----------



## morzh

Guys, girls, let's agree - immigration is always a stress, and there are necessary losses and adjustments, and no matter how you dance  your name will never (with very few exceptions) sound the same in another language. Consider it a part of accepting a new life.
And if it is just for the passport / traveling purposes, what do you care if for a week or two people will call you "Айвэн" i/o "Иван". 

It's yooks and zooks all over again.


----------



## SMD62

ewie said:


> The difference with *Sergei* (as I said in the thread in English Only) is that it's _such_ a familiar name to English-speakers (those of us who don't know of Eisenstein or Diaghilev or Rachmaninov or Witte or Prokofiev will certainly have seen umpteen Cold War films with characters called Sergei; in the UK we even have a bloody advertising _meerkat_ called Sergei ~ even little kids know the name!) that you'd have to look pretty hard to find someone who, coming across the name *Sergei* or *Sergey* in print for the first time, would have no idea what it was supposed to represent.



All right... let me ask again: 'SERGEI" or "SERGEY"? Which is more familiar in the West to the GENERAL PUBLIC?


----------



## SMD62

Albertovna said:


> The traditional principle of spelling. Russian has it, too, along with the morphological and phonetical ones.
> 
> As regards Sergey/Sergei, I suggest one more option - *Sergius*.



No, there was already one Sergius. If I ever decide to go all religious, I'd call  myself Sergius II


----------



## SMD62

Albertovna said:


> I think "guei" in Serguei will most probably be read as "gway" in English. This is because, for example, "s*ue*de" is pronounced as "swayd."



Oh really? What about 'guest', 'guerrilla', 'guess'?


----------



## SMD62

morzh said:


> As I said before - we are talking of transliteration. If the name was originally in Latin alphabet, it is usually preserved despite the fact that it will sound differently.
> 
> For instance, last name "Rzewski" (Polish) in English sounds like "Rzew-skee", and the owner of the name was OK with it, but originally it sounds like "Жевуски" (Zhe-woo-skee).
> 
> Or "Pugliese" - the owner pronounces it as "Puh-glee-see", but it is originally "Poo-lieh-zeh".
> People with names originally written in Latin prefer to keep the spelling.
> 
> But, again, we are talking of transliteration, in this case - Cyrillic-to-English.



By the way all Polish guys here in Canada chose an interesting route: they keep spelling their names in POLISH, exactly the way it was spelled at home. When I asked one of them if English speakers have problems pronouncing his name, he said, "**ck them! I'm not going to change the name just so that some Canadian can say it. Let them learn." BTW, it's some kind of a twisted reality here that immigrants who have very weak English come here pretty much hating the English language and local people. People who studied GERMAN at high school and then decided to immigrate are the worst  Luckily, I'm not one of them because I learned my English BEFORE coming to Canada.


----------



## SMD62

Well, I think I have my answer. After the moderator's post, I did a google search on this 'meerkat Sergei'  and there's a ton of results. I had no ideal UK had this advertising campaign going! But if this spelling is on TV (and there might have been a reason why they chose 'Sergei' and 'Sergey'), that's the way to go. It's be easier for people to pronounce if they have heard it before. So I agree with another poster who wrote that 'Sergei' has a cleaner more modern look. There was a couple of 'Sergei's in the US/Russia joint space program and they too chose this modern spelling of 'Sergei'. Rules do not matter. Familiarity with the name does. 

If I start a massive TV advertising campaign and the main character's name will be 'ADAM' but on the show everyone says it as 'ei -dahm', that will become a pronunciation people feel okay with


----------



## Syline

smd62 said:


> no, there was already one sergius. If i ever decide to go all religious, i'd call  myself sergius ii


 Не обязательно ) Так можно еще назваться, если у вас вдруг появится потребность почувствовать себя римским патрицием :d


----------



## LilianaB

I think Polish and Lithuanian names are supposed to be spelled exactly the way they are spelled, just without the diacritics. I have never seen anything else in English, unless in cases of second generation descendants or people who changed their names while becoming US citizens. There are some letters in Lithuanian that have to be adjusted.


----------



## Doktor Zlo

SMD62 said:


> All right... let me ask again: 'SERGEI" or "SERGEY"? Which is more familiar in the West to the GENERAL PUBLIC?



Sergei. 

Why? Well, _ the West_ is pretty widespread, but you live in North America, specifically Canada. Since roughly 1989, the Russian Сергеи that have been the most well known in Canada have been professional hockey players. The vast majority of them use the spelling _Sergei_: Sergei Makarov, Sergei Nemchinov, Sergei Fedorov, Sergei Samsonov, Sergei Gonchar, Sergei Kostitsyn, etc.

That's not to say other spellings aren't used.



Albertovna said:


> Transliteration systems are numerous. I like that by MAIK "Nauka" Interperiodica:
> a, b, v, g, d, e (for е, ё), zh, z, i (и, й), k, l, m, n, o, p, r, s, t, u, f, kh, ts, ch, sh, shch, " (ъ), y, ' (ь), e, yu, ya
> So, Sergei **ache*.



Not exactly. 

Having worked for IAPC Nauka/Interperiodica for over seven years, I'm extremely familiar with this transliteration system. In the company's House Style Guide, the introductory note to the transliteration table says "There should be no deviations from this system but for the exceptions listed below and in journal appendixes, and preferences of individual authors regarding the spelling of their names."

So, it would be _Sergei_ or whatever spelling preferred by an author. 

Take home message: Spell your name how you want to spell it (at your peril).


----------



## SMD62

That what I figured. Just changed the name on my blog and YouTube channel. See the new spelling here. Check out how the author's name is now spelled on the first page of my YouTube channel  Thanks to everyone for contributing! It has been a very interesting and useful discussion.


----------



## morzh

We're gonna keep that flapjack on the griddle for awhile, aren't we......


----------

