# Persian: توجیه/justification



## PersoLatin

Is there a native Persian word for توجیه in its “justification” sense?


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## marrish

PersoLatin said:


> Is there a native Persian word for توجیه in its “justification” sense?


I am not certain if it meets your requirements – but فرنود should work somehow (since there's no context there).


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## PersoLatin

marrish said:


> I am not certain if it meets your requirements – but فرنود should work somehow (since there's no context there).



Sorry, have I broken the very rule I have complained about, myself.

e.g. تو این رفتار را چگونه توجیه میکنی؟/how do you justify this behaviour?

توجیه can also mean “explain” but  I want to know about the justification sense of it. Another variation is موجه, as in عذرش موجه است/his excuse/reason is justified/justifiable/legitimate.

فرنود would work if the question asks for the “reason” for behaving in that way.


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## Qureshpor

PersoLatin said:


> Sorry, have I broken the very rule I have complained about, myself.
> 
> e.g. تو این رفتار را چگونه توجیه میکنی؟/how do you justify this behaviour?
> 
> توجیه can also mean “explain” but  I want to know about the justification sense of it. Another variation is موجه, as in عذرش موجه است/his excuse/reason is justified/justifiable/legitimate.
> 
> فرنود would work if the question asks for the “reason” for behaving in that way.


Would a simple word such as پاسخ suffice?


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## PersoLatin

Qureshpor said:


> Would a simple word such as پاسخ suffice?


Thank you, so do you mean like this:
تو این رفتار را چگونه پاسخ میدهی؟
or maybe پاسخ گویی مبکنی 
for
“how do you justify this behaviour?” ?


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## mannoushka

PersoLatin, I think فرنود is a nice word to have around. Never mind that it has not well circulated yet among the general public and needs some getting used to.
There is this bit of colloquialism, but it may be just as obscure as the pure-Persian suggestion:
 این رفتار را چه‌گونه دسته‌اش را در می‌کنی؟
“How do you account for the behaviour so it appears justified?”
Or, this:
بیمار پذیرش نشد، و دسته‌اش را با گفتن که بیمارستان آلوده‌تر از منزل است در کردند
So, دسته در کردن is a bit like making some excuse or pretext stick, sort of imparting plausibility to something. I don’t know if the idiom is only locally used or if you could think of it as part of the universal vernacular. Nor could I trace it back to its original usage, sorry! 

Have you (or anyone else) ever heard of دسته در کردن?


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## Qureshpor

PersoLatin said:


> Thank you, so do you mean like this:
> تو این رفتار را چگونه پاسخ میدهی؟
> or maybe پاسخ گویی مبکنی
> for
> “how do you justify this behaviour?” ?


Yes, something like, "What's your answer for this kind of behaviour?" which can be stretched to imply "justification".


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## PersoLatin

mannoushka said:


> PersoLatin, I think فرنود is a nice word to have around. Never mind that it has not well circulated yet among the general public and needs some getting used to.
> There is this bit of colloquialism, but it may be just as obscure as the pure-Persian suggestion:
> این رفتار را چه‌گونه دسته‌اش را در می‌کنی؟
> “How do you account for the behaviour so it appears justified?”
> Or, this:
> بیمار پذیرش نشد، و دسته‌اش را با گفتن که بیمارستان آلوده‌تر از منزل است در کردند
> So, دسته در کردن is a bit like making some excuse or pretext stick, sort of imparting plausibility to something. I don’t know if the idiom is only locally used or if you could think of it as part of the universal vernacular. Nor could I trace it back to its original usage, sorry!


Thank you, I haven’t forgotten فرنود which is a perfect Persian word for ‘reason’, پاسخ certainly covers some of the requirements, although پاسخ lacks the ‘attempt to put right’ aspect in justify.

I have not heard دسته درکردن, if it is or can be used the way you have described, then perfect, let’s hope the expression was not formed for inappropriate situations, or it does not sound inappropriate, but we will know when we find more about it, or maybe we find another one just as good.

A quick scan online found nothing for دسته درکردن  but to me one meaning is, driving the blade in as far as the handle, but I can’t reconcile that with the question at hand, nor can I with the opposite possibility i.e. pulling out the blade by the handle, there’s also the possibility that it is دست and not دسته, if it is دست در کردن it could be referring to a hand gesture, either way I am none the wiser.


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## mannoushka

PersoLatin said:


> [...] let’s hope the expression was not formed for inappropriate situations, [...]


Who knows what it literally applied to originally!  I have certainly been using it in innocuous situations forever. Imagine you are trying to fit a frying pan inside a modest-sized bag. Putting the body of the pan in the bag is done easily enough, but the handle is sticking out, and you wonder how you are going to get the handle through. With _dar_ being what it is, ie a contradiction of its own self, the imaginary situation may as well be reimagined in reverse. You are trying to take a pan out, etc. But I am only guessing, of course.


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## mannoushka

تو این رفتار را چه‌گونه می‌گنجانی؟
Positively outrageous, this one. I do take it back, no comment necessary!


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## PersoLatin

I though of راستان شدن/کردن for “to justify & to be justified”, using the causative suffix on راست (as the present stem of the non-existent verb راستیدن)

راستان شدنی / justifiable
راستان ناشدنی / unjustifiable



PersoLatin said:


> e.g. تو این رفتار را چگونه توجیه میکنی؟/how do you justify this behaviour?


so تو این رفتار را چگونه راستان میکنی؟

Alternatively راستاندن / to justify.:
 تو این رفتار را چگونه می‌راستانی؟


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## Alfaaz

Addition to the suggestions discussed above: انگیزہ نمائی، فرنود آوردن/آوری are listed in a Persian-English dictionary.

Questions: 

Could ب‍ﮩ‍انه simply be used in certain cases (depending on exact context)?
Would بَجا/روا داشتن یا دانستن be potential options?


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## PersoLatin

Alfaaz said:


> Addition to the suggestions discussed above: انگیزہ نمائی، فرنود آوردن/آوری are listed in a Persian-English dictionary.
> 
> Questions:
> 
> Could ب‍ﮩ‍انه simply be used in certain cases (depending on exact context)?
> Would بَجا/روا داشتن یا دانستن be potential options?


Thank you Alfaaz.

I was looking to get as close as possible to “justify”, I know that approach does not always work or is not alway right but “justify” is a simple verb, of course these days ‘to justify’ is an attempt to make things right or put the record straight but بهانه is just an excuse, فرنود آوری is close and covers elements of justify,

I thought of راست/ارد نمایی but avoided them since نمایی has the element of ‘pretence’ built in and is not in the right spirit.

بجا دانستن in modern Persian is recognising the appropriateness or the timing of saying/stating something, also جا داشتن.

روا is a very good suggestion as it’s in line with راست, right or correct.

روا now needs a verb to enact it,  ساختن is an obvious one but there are others, maybe زدن or پرداختن or others, even رواکنش if it doesn’t get confused with واکنش.


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## Alfaaz

PersoLatin said:
			
		

> روا now needs a verb to enact it, ساختن is an obvious one but there are others, maybe زدن or پرداختن..


 Do داشتن or دانستن not work? 

Hayyim and Steingass: 


> روا داشتن Transitive verb To consent, allow, deem it right or allowable; approve of.





> — _rawā dāshtan_, To judge right, commend, approve, allow;


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## PersoLatin

Alfaaz said:


> Do داشتن or دانستن not work?


 روا دانستن won't work semantically and it is already used for "knowing/recognising right (from wrong)".



> روا داشتن Transitive verb To consent, allow, deem it right or allowable; approve of.


روا داشتن means, to recommend/allow something that is right but justify, as you will know, is to give/provide reasons in order to put things right.

E.g. امروز رئیس شرکت را به دادگاه خواندند تا *فرنود* ورشکستگی شرکت را توجیه کند/*رواپردازی*/*راستان* کند (a made up sentence)


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## mannoushka

How about this: او را به دادگاه فرا خواندند تا اعلام ورشکستگی شرکت را روانمایی کند?


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## truce

To me "توجیه کردن" partially means "دفاع کردن". In the above-mentioned case that simply could be replaced with "دفاع کردن" or perhaps "تطهیر کردن". , but having said that, both suggestions are Arabic.
تو چگونه از این رفتار دفاع میکنی؟
تو چگونه این رفتار را تطهیر میکنی؟


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## PersoLatin

truce said:


> To me "توجیه کردن" partially means "دفاع کردن".


Without getting too deep into legal area here, justifying one's actions can be part of one's defence/دفاع but not the whole thing as you say.
تطهیر means purification and can only happen after reasons for the actions are given/justification.

I'm sure Arabic speakers can correct/assist me here:
توجیه in Arabic = directing, orienting, in Persian = to justify, justifying
توجه in Arabic  = orientation, in Persian = attention, so close to the Arabic meaning
موجه in Arabic  = directed, guided, in Persian = justifiable


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## PersoLatin

mannoushka said:


> How about this: او را به دادگاه فرا خواندند تا اعلام ورشکستگی شرکت را روانمایی کند?


I didn't use نمایی (same as نمایش) for the reason below:


PersoLatin said:


> I thought of راست/ارد نمایی but avoided them since نمایی has the element of ‘pretence’ built in and is not in the right spirit.


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## Alfaaz

PersoLatin said:
			
		

> روا داشتن means, to recommend/allow something that is right but justify, as you will know, is to give/provide reasons in order to put things right.





			
				PersoLatin said:
			
		

> how do you justify this behaviour?


Thanks for the informative answer. I had your example sentence in mind and was thinking روا داشتن could indicate the following: 

_How do you _داشتن /_"hold/keep" this _روا_? → How do you deem this right/correct/_جائز_?  → _by extension (perhaps stretching it a bit!) _→ What reasoning do you have for considering it _روا_? H__ow do you justify this?_​


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## PersoLatin

Alfaaz said:


> _How do you _داشتن /_"hold/keep" this _روا_? → How do you deem this right/correct/_جائز_? → _by extension (perhaps stretching it a bit!) _→ What reasoning do you have for considering it _روا_? H__ow do you justify this?_


Yes you are right, e.g. when one goes to justify their action which was seen as unfair/ناروا‏, the other party could ask that exact question, but that covers one side of the story, the other side is when their action was seen as fair/روا‏ and the other party is happy, so the first party has 'justified' their action, رواداشتن as a transitive verb won't work here maybe just روا نهادم/‏کردم, I haven't found the right verb yet.


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## marrish

PersoLatin said:


> I haven't found the right verb yet


روا گراییدن
روا گردانیدن
روا گفتن
راستی قرار دادن
؟


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## PersoLatin

marrish said:


> روا گراییدن
> روا گردانیدن
> روا گفتن
> راستی قرار دادن


روا گردانیدن sounds very good, it gives the sense of ‘restoring’, thanks marrish.

گراییدن is more تمایل داشتن/having tendency.

I was also thinking about روا ایستانی or روا استواری to give the sense of ‘setting’


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