# FR: saint XXX / Saint-XXX / St XXX - trait d'union, majuscule & abréviation



## Pó de Pirlimpimpim

I have read in the Internet the both ways: with or without hyphen. And I have not found in any french grammar how is the use of hyphen in those cases. It is used in double names, like Jean-Pierre and Anne-Marie, but how about Saint someone?

Thank you


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## Lezert

I found here http://www.uzine.net/article1802.html that 
-If you speak about the "original" saint (the man, Jacques,  in your example) , there is no hyphen ( saint Jacques)
-If it is something derivated from the saint, ( a place, a monument, a religious order...) it is written with hyphen ( l'église Saint-Jacques)


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## Renaudbb

The hyphen is needed if the "saint" is used as a street name, hospital name, building name, etc. but not for the "saint" itself.

Examples : 

"La basilique Saint-Pierre est ainsi nommée en l'honneur de Saint Pierre".


edit : ooops, too late


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## Pó de Pirlimpimpim

Uoa, thank you for the answers, guys. Had a lot of doubts about this. Clear now. 

Thanks again

Pity I haven´t found this site before.


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## tilt

Welcome to the WR forums, Pó de Pirlimpimpim.

Lezert is right about capitals: when speaking of the person, _saint _is lower case only.


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## anastasia0000

Hello,

When writing the name of a female Saint, I am not sure if the word "Saint" must agree in gender. I find references with and without the gender agreement, so I am confused.

For example:

Saint Catherine

Saint Cathérine or Sainte Cathérine

Thanks a lot if you can help me understand this!


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## SwissPete

anastasia0000 said:


> Saint Cathérine
> or
> Sainte Cathérine


As for possible abbreviations, see *here*.


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## auptitgallo

Very interesting, _*la banque de dépannage linguistique* _page on abbreviations (and a great name!) ; thank you, SwissPete.  

But now I'm wondering if this page is specifically French-Canadian?  Are the rules on abbreviation and saint's names the same in metropolitan France, I wonder.  Where should I go to check this, I also wonder...  Language is an unending roundabout of complexities.


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## pointvirgule

When referring to the actual person, it is written thus: _sainte Catherine, _where _saint(e) _is all lowercase (unless it is at the beginning of a sentence, of course), and should not be abbreviated. It agrees in gender.

By the way, I'm afraid the BDL article Pete referred to is specifically about family, place and street names.
This is the more general BDL page on the usages of _saint_.


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## clairehelen

Can someone clarify whether the articles mentioned above in the BDL refer only to Canadian French? Are the usage rules for the word "saint" (or its abbreviations) different in France?


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## Maître Capello

The usage in Europe is the same as in Canada.


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## olivier68

In French from France, "Saint" (St) is considered as an adjectif and, thus, takes the gender agreement:
Saint Luc, Saint Marius, Saint Georges ("St")
Sainte Lucie, Sainte Maria, Sainte Georgette ("Ste", always: wroten elision is not possible)

[NB. Note, moreover, that a "-" is put when refeering to churches or places and not to the saints themselves.


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## clairehelen

I assume that means the abbreviations and capitalizations as well, and whether to hyphenate...Right?


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## Maître Capello

Yes, all those rules are the same as far as I know.


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## olivier68

The rule is that you will have to capitalize when refeering to a location. It is not so clear-cut if you refer to the person. Some do, some don't. Most don't (except, of course, if "saint(e)" comes at the beginning of a sentence).
I would say that hyphenation should be avoided, as far as possible.


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## clairehelen

Thanks to everyone for the responses / guidance. And final last questions (I hope)...
When using the abbreviation, do you use a period as well? (ex: "Paroisse St-Augustin" or "Paroisse St.-Augustin"; "Paroisse Ste-Anne" or "Paroisse Ste.-Anne"). And is a parish considered a "place"?


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## Maître Capello

clairehelen said:


> When using the abbreviation, do you use a period as well?


No, because the last letter of _saint_, namely _t_, is included in the abbreviation. In French, an abreviation period shall be used only when the abbreviated word is truncated (e.g., "M." for _monsieur_, "av." for _avenue_, but "St" for _saint_, "bd" for boulevard). Anyway, unlike in English, the word _saint(e)_ is usually *not* abbreviated in French.



clairehelen said:


> And is a parish considered a "place"?


Yes it is. It is the name of the corresponding church. Thus, _la paroisse Saint-Augustin_ is a short form of _la paroisse de l'église Saint-Augustin_.


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## olivier68

I fully agree with Capello's answers: 1) a parish has to be considered as a place, as explained; 2) the abbreviation is not that common in France, except, maybe, if it is to design a specific day or feast (this last point opens an interesting compraison with French and English. See Shakespeare's famous Ajincourt address in Henry V).


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## clairehelen

Merci mille fois!! I am proofreading an index that has all sorts of variations (St.-, St., Saint-, Saint, etc.--and corresponding feminine forms) and I just did not know which way to go. They represent mostly parishes, places, and churches in France, Canada, and Louisiana. This helps a lot. But then the ones in Louisiana are in English (except the early ones, which come from the time when the parishioners spoke only French!!) So I have my work cut out for me. But this has helped enormously! This forum is a fabulous resource. Je vous en remercie tous!


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