# Old Irish :  fionndruine



## L'irlandais

Sorry, but I've been side tracked on the subject of loan-words.

I am trudging through the Irish epic *Táin Bó Cuailnge *(8th century) translated by Thomas Kinsella in 1969.
The word *findruine* intrigues me ;  perhaps from the old Irish *fionndruine* fionn = fair - however does anybody know what  the word *druine* might mean?


> in this case it's an alloy somtimes called *white bronze*. A decorative metal


Yet bronze in my dictionary is given as cré-umha, and copper given as umha (or more recently copar)

In terms of adding more context, it may have been an alloy of copper, with a high content of tin (stán)  Any ideas appreciated.


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## CapnPrep

If this book (_A Glossary of Gaelic Magic_ by Rod Mackay) is to be believed, the ‹d› is not etymological, but was inserted after the loss of the ‹b› of *bruine*.


			
				Mackay said:
			
		

> FIONNDRUINNE, obsolete designation for white bronze, EIr. [=Early Middle Irish] findruine, fionn (b) ruine, the latter conferring with the Eng. bronze.



This is consistent with the information in Dwelly's (SG):


†fionndruinne: see †fionn-bhruinne. 2 (White) bronze
†fionn-bhruinne: _s.m._ Fine brass
I don't have any more info on _bruine_/_bruinne_, but that seems to be the word you want.


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## L'irlandais

Hello CapnPrep,
Thanks for that.  As I mentioned above, bronze in my dictionary is given as *cré-umha*.  Which is what had left me wondering about the origins of this _Old Irish _word.
You are right in thinking I'm more interested in establishing what metal was used in the alloy, than anything else ; such as understanding how it fits into the currency of those times :


> The most valuable metal was pure or yellow-gold (*ór*).
> Then came red-gold (*dergeor*) an alloy of gold with copper content
> White/pale gold (*findeor*) an alloy of gold with silver content
> airgead (*airgid*)
> then our *findruine *(Which left me wondering if perhaps anyone good at eclipsis (urú) might be able to work out the word at the root of this.)
> bronze (*umha*)  or sometimes *cré-umha*
> copper (_copar_) sometimes given as *umha*.  ~shrug~


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## CapnPrep

I've had some more time to poke around. You may have already come across these references:


the entries for _findbruine/findruine_ in the eDIL
the entry for _findruine_ in the Oxford Dictionary of Celtic Mythology on Answers.com
this short 1964 article by Vernam Hull in the Zeitschrift für celtische Philologie (only page 1 is accessible for free)
an alternative etymology proposed by O'Curry (1873, p. cccclxvi, fn 827)


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## L'irlandais

Nice one,
This suggestion takes my fancy :


> Thurneysen ( Heldensage 83 ) takes the word to be a derivative from `finn' and `ór' meaning `white gold ,' gold from which the silver with which it is often found has not been entirely separated.


Which ties in with the 1964 article, giving *bruth* as a probable etymology.
Cheers!


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