# Can



## FRENFR

Szia mindeki(nek!?) 

Egy kérdésem van:

Why is "can" translated as 'tudni' in Hungarian?  In English, 'can' can mean two things:  ability and permission:  I can drive to the shop (because my parents said I am allowed)/(Because I have a car).

Tudni, means to know.  How can tudni mean I know, I can (ability), I can (permission).

Seems impossible to me, unless I am missing something?

All is good in Pécs!
Thanks in advance...


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## Ateesh6800

A wonderful question! You'll see why.

*"Tudni"* is a Uralic word, so it is part of the "original" vocabulary of Hungarian.

*"Tud"* is a *verb* that expresses _knowledge_ (_ismeret_, _értesülés_, _tapasztalat_; i.e. _having knowledge_, _having information_, _being aware of sg_, _having experienced sg_), the _knowledge of a language_ (_tud franciául_); and _ability_ (_nem tudok elaludni_: "I am unable to fall asleep").

It may be used as:
- a *transitive word* (_tudom, hány óra_; I know what time it is)
- an *intransitive verb* with another complement (_tud angol*ul*, lengyel*ül*_)
- an *intransitive verb* without a complement (nagyon tud a gyerek; _the kid is really knowledgable_ or _the kid really knows his stuff_) *and*
- a verb acting as an *auxiliary* expressing an ability (physical ability or physical/mental skill) with an infinitive (_Pista tud úszni/olvasni/érvelni_; _Steve can swim/read/argue_).It even has an *informal* use: when you want to express that someone *can* be mean *occasionally*, you can say ironically "_A főnököm tud szemét lenni._", which is exactly the same as _"He can be mean sometimes."_, but because here we're not really talking about an _ability_, it sounds ironic in Hungarian (presenting a fault as an ability). You can also say _"A magyar csajok tudnak szépek lenni."_ (_"Hungarian girls can be pretty."_), but again, this is informal in Hungarian, and emotionally backs away a bit from saying _"Hungarian girls are beautiful"_ so as to prevent, for example, a backlash from GF (_"Don't you get excited about <other> Hungarian girls now!"_).​Now, here's piece of information that might surprise you. In English, *"can"*, which is now only an *auxiliary* (same as in _tud úszni_), comes from the Old English verb *cunnan*, which means _"know, have power to, be able,"_ (also _"to have carnal knowledge"_, that is, _to have had sex with someone in the Biblical sense_), from Proto-Germanic *kunnan* _"to be mentally able, to have learned"_.

All meanings except for the auxiliary use have disappeared from English, but as you see, *cunnan/can* *is originally the same as tud*: *an all-round verb expressing ability and knowledge.* The difference is that in English only the *auxiliary *use survives while in Hungarian all other uses are still around.Compare, by the way, German *kennen*; the Proto-Indo-European stem is **gno* => Greek *gnosis* (_gnostic/agnostic_). Also, does the adjective *cunning* ring a bell? It means a person who is _skilled _at what he does, _he can do it well_, _jól tudja csinálni_. (There's an excellent rap formation called Cunninlynguists, and I'm not joking. Don't say it too fast in public.)

Also related to this word in English is *couth/uncouth*: someone who _knows_ or _does not know_ his/her manners.​Another language that does the same is Spanish: *saber* means _to know something_ but it also expresses _(physical/skill-type) ability_: *no sé nadar*, _I can't swim_.

So there isn't that much of a difference between English and Hungarian if you take a look at it along a wider timescale. 

Fascinating stuff! Thanks for asking! 

*A.*


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## Vaskez

Actually, usage of "can" in terms of permission, is technically wrong in English, as you yourself probably know. In this case it is a colloquialism, since the word for "able to, due to permission" is "may". Therefore the question is slightly wrong  

In Hungarian, as in English, there are separate words for the two. 

Tudni = to know, and to be able to (the logic is you KNOW how, therefore you are able to), THAT is why tudni can be used for both "to know" and "to be able to"

Szabad = it is allowed

szabad valamit csinálni = (literally) something is allowed to be done

"tudni" is never used for permission in Hungarian

you also have the "hat/het" ending to denote permission

valamit csinál = he/she is doing something
valamit csinálHAT = he/she has permission to do something
valamit szabad neki csinálnia = he/she has permission to do something (actually szabad is the adjective for "free" (noun: szabadság), so literally this means he is free to do something)
valamit tud csinálni = he/she is able to do something

p.s. Ateesh is right - Cunninlynguists are dope, if you don't know them, you should check them out 



FRENFR said:


> Szia mindeki(nek!?)
> 
> Egy kérdésem van:
> 
> Why is "can" translated as 'tudni' in Hungarian? In English, 'can' can mean two things: ability and permission: I can drive to the shop (because my parents said I am allowed)/(Because I have a car).
> 
> Tudni, means to know. How can tudni mean I know, I can (ability), I can (permission).
> 
> Seems impossible to me, unless I am missing something?
> 
> All is good in Pécs!
> Thanks in advance...


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## Zsanna

So... _szabad_ was mentioned above as an example for expressing _permission_ in Hungarian.

I would just add that in French you can use savoir (as opposed to pouvoir) to translate "can".
E.g. Je sais nager./Tudok úszni./I can swim.


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## Zsanna

Oh, and the question "sousentendue":



FRENFR said:


> Szia mindeki(nek!?)


 
If you really want to greet everybody (several people/more than one person), the easiest is to say: Sziasztok!


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## FRENFR

Really wonderful all.  Thanks.  I'll add examples to my notebook.

Sorry for lack of response.  10,000 word translation for Wednesday for very posh hotel!


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