# English diphthongs /eɪ/, /aɪ/, /ɔɪ/ and diphthongization of /i:/



## merquiades

*Moderator note: Side discussion split from here.
*
By the way, Australia is recognizable. There is a sort of vowel shift occurring there too: Spain pronounced as spine, buy pronounced as boy, free as fray.


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## Dan2

merquiades said:


> By the way,  Australia is recognizable.  There is a sort of vowel shift occurring there too: Spain pronounced as spine, buy pronounced as boy, free as fray.


More accurately, I would say, "Spain" pronounced in such a way that Americans (and others) perceive it as being somewhat (not exactly) like _our _"spine"; the "buy" diphthong being "off" in the direction of _our _"boy" (but certainly not the _same _as our "boy").

Also, saying that "'Spain' is pronounced as 'spine'" (etc) _could _be interpreted as meaning that Australians pronounce "Spain" and "spine" alike. (Compare saying, "In Los Angeles, "marry" is pronounced as "Mary", which _does _in fact mean that residents pronounce these words identically.) The "Spain" and "spine" word classes have certainly _not _merged in Australia (as I realize you know, but I think it's worth saying for the record).

Yes, Australian English is recognizable, but some of these characteristic Australian diphthongs seem similar to Americans (and maybe others) to some varieties of London speech.


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## merquiades

Dan2 said:


> More accurately, I would say, "Spain" pronounced in such a way that Americans (and others) perceive it as being somewhat (not exactly) like _our _"spine"; the "buy" diphthong being "off" in the direction of _our _"boy" (but certainly not the _same _as our "boy").
> 
> Also, saying that "'Spain' is pronounced as 'spine'" (etc) _could _be interpreted as meaning that Australians pronounce "Spain" and "spine" alike. (Compare saying, "In Los Angeles, "marry" is pronounced as "Mary", which _does _in fact mean that residents pronounce these words identically.) The "Spain" and "spine" word classes have certainly _not _merged in Australia (as I realize you know, but I think it's worth saying for the record).
> 
> Yes, Australian English is recognizable, but some of these characteristic Australian diphthongs seem similar to Americans (and maybe others) to some varieties of London speech.



Agreed that /baɪ/ hasn't quite made it to /bɔɪ/ yet, but unless my ear is totally off /speɪn/ does sound like it has become /spaɪn/ at least in the speech of the prime minister.  See her interview in the Guardian on 22 October 2012 (Julia Gillard poll bounce following misogyny speech):  minute 1:24 table,  2:01 every day, 2:03 every way.  That does not mean "Spain" and "spine" are pronounced alike in their accent.  I said there is a vowel shift not a merger.


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## Youngfun

I think that if I hear Spain pronounced close to spine, I would perceive it as an heavy Australian accent, and so I will recognize it as Australian.
I was talking about Australians with a lighter accent, like the actor of _Thor_.

<...>


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## merquiades

Youngfun said:


> I think that if I hear Spain pronounced close to spine, I would perceive it as an heavy Australian accent, and so I will recognize it as Australian.
> I was talking about Australians with a lighter accent, like the actor of _Thor_.



He's trying to sound American.  Nicole Kidman does it too in her films. Many Australian actors do not have their accent in films.  I've heard Kate Blanchett put on any number of accents, British or American. Maybe it's required for their roles....


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## Dan2

merquiades said:


> ...Australia is recognizable.  There is a  sort of vowel shift occurring there too: Spain pronounced as spine, buy  pronounced as boy, ...





Dan2 said:


> More accurately, I would say, "Spain" pronounced in  such a way that Americans (and others) perceive it as being somewhat  (not exactly) like _our _"spine"; the "buy" diphthong being "off" in the direction of _our _"boy" (but certainly not the _same _as our "boy").





merquiades said:


> Agreed that /baɪ/ hasn't quite made it to /bɔɪ/ yet, but unless my ear is totally off /speɪn/ does sound like it has become /spaɪn/ at least in the speech of the prime minister.  See her interview in the Guardian on 22 October 2012 (Julia Gillard poll bounce following misogyny speech):  minute 1:24 table,  2:01 every day, 2:03 every way.


To see the main point I was making, delete, for the moment, my "somewhat (not exactly)".   I was objecting to your saying that Australians pronounce "Spain" as "spine".  As *whose *"spine"?  If you told the PM that she pronounced "Spain" as "spine" she'd tell you that her "spine" is completely different.  Many Londoners would also object that the way she says "Spain" doesn't sound like "spine" (_their _"spine").  We have a world-wide audience here.  If you want to say that the PM's "Spain" sounds like [spaIn] (as you do in your later post), that's fine, since what appears in brackets is assumed to be an absolute representation in terms of IPA.  As an alternative to using IPA, I wrote above "_our _"spine"" (the "spine" of you and me as Americans).

(In fact, even "American _spine_" is not unambiguous. Compare New York, Chicago, and Alabama...)

Returning to the question of how close the Australian "day" vowel comes to typical American pronunciations of the "die" vowel: This isn't the first time that I've seen reference to the pronunciation of PM Gillard, and I admit that when I listen "categorically" (is it X or Y) to her speech, I hear many or most of her "day" vowels as my "die" vowel.  I take that to mean simply that in these cases, her "day" is closer to my "image" of "die" than to my image of "day"; it doesn't mean it's the *same*, that "_Spain_ is said as _spine_" (even _my_ "spine").

However, even for PM Gillard, I perceive many of her "day" vowels correctly.  For ex., in this famous misogyny speech, there are several occurrences of "Australia" in which I perceive the stressed syllable as my "stray" rather than as having the "die" vowel.

Every dialect has variability.  (We tend not hear our own variability.)  Based on the above sort of observations, I conclude that the Australian "day" vowel resides near the boundary of my (note _my_, tho I think many other non-Australians perceive it similarly) "day" and "die" vowels.  As a result of natural variation (from utterance to utterance for a given speaker, and from speaker to speaker (PM Gillard seems to be "advanced" compared to the previous PM and to Australian broadcast news readers)), the Australian "day" vowel sometimes falls on one side of my boundary, sometimes on the other.

Sorry to be so wordy, but I think more precision would often be useful in our EHL discussions.


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## berndf

merquiades said:


> By the way, Australia is recognizable. There is a sort of vowel shift occurring there too: Spain pronounced as spine, buy pronounced as boy, free as fray.


To my knowledge, the realization of the diphthongs /eɪ/ and /aɪ/ are approximately as in Cockney which is: /eɪ/>/ʌɪ/* and /aɪ/>/ɒɪ/.

_* The rain in Spain stays mainly in the plain.

_


Dan2 said:


> More accurately, I would say, "Spain" pronounced in such a way that Americans (and others) perceive it as being somewhat (*not exactly*) like _our _"spine"


It should also be noted that the London /ʌ/ is more forward than is most other varieties of English an is very close to /a/, just a bit higher, about like the German short "a". This explains the "somewhat but not exactly".


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## Youngfun

According to Wikipedia:
/iː/ → [əi~ɐi]:[40][41] [bəiʔ] "beet"
/eɪ/ → [æɪ~aɪ]:[42] [bæɪʔ] "bait"
/aɪ/ → [ɑɪ] or even [ɒɪ]

_Buy_ [bɒɪ] would sound pretty close to American _boy_. _Innit?_

Then trascriptions can also differ.


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## berndf

Youngfun said:


> /eɪ/ → [æɪ~aɪ]:[42] [bæɪʔ] "bait"


It is almost exactly the vowel of _but_ in London accent which is a raised [a], i.e. [ɐ]. I suppose you could describe it as a sound in between [æ] and [a]. But since this is the realization of the London /ʌ/, I prefer the transcription /ʌɪ/.

Listen how Freddy pronounces the word _governor _here.


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## Youngfun

I think you are transcribing phonemically, while Wikipedia phonetically.
Maybe [ɐɪ] would be a more accurate phonetic transcription?


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## berndf

Youngfun said:


> I think you are transcribing phonemically, while Wikipedia phonetically.
> Maybe [ɐɪ] would be a more accurate phonetic transcription?


In my view, yes.

PS: Given the fact that it is a bit on the front side of [ɐ], I could relate to [ɐɪ]~[æɪ] as well.


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## merquiades

berndf said:


> To my knowledge, the realization of the diphthongs /eɪ/ and /aɪ/ are approximately as in Cockney which is: /eɪ/>/ʌɪ/* and /aɪ/>/ɒɪ/.
> 
> _* The rain in Spain stays mainly in the plain._


_

Yes, love it.  It's the the classical comical scene from [My Fair Lady - The rain in Spain (wrong)].  This is probably the origin of the Australian pronunciation as with J.G.  Nineteenth century migrations. I'm not sure if it was exaggerated here just for the comic effect of the film/musical.

_


			
				berndf said:
			
		

> It should also be noted that the London /ʌ/ is more forward than is most other varieties of English an is very close to /a/, just a bit higher, about like the German short "a". This explains the "somewhat but not exactly".



I just realized it's true the people in Southeast England pronounce their /ʌ/ closer to /ɐ/:  It can sound close to /a/: /batter ap the ban/, /kap av ti:/.  There is a similar vowel in Portuguese and I recognize it.  I've also heard Brits, not just Cockney speakers, say /tu:-'dɐI), yet still it seems to me that (many, most) Australians go further and do say /ai/.  See my other post.


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## berndf

merquiades said:


> I'm not sure if it was exaggerated here just for the comic effect of the film/musical.


No, that's indeed how real East End Cockney sounds.


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## Youngfun

merquiades said:


> He's trying to sound American.  Nicole Kidman does it too in her films. Many Australian actors do not have their accent in films.  I've heard Kate Blanchett put on any number of accents, British or American. Maybe it's required for their roles....


To my experience, some Australians, especially those from Sydney, speak natively with a more Americanized accent in daily life, and many of them don't even lower the /ei/ diphthong.


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## merquiades

Youngfun said:


> To my experience, some Australians, especially those from Sydney, speak natively with a more Americanized accent in daily life, and many of them don't even lower the /ei/ diphthong.



I did a bit of research.  It appears there are three accent types in Australia: posh, broad and something in the middle.  You can find them everywhere but in some regions there is a tendency towards one or another.  The posh one tries to approximate RP British speech a little bit, so they'd say something close to /Speɪn/.  Then the broad accent (Julia Gillard is given as an example) is the strongest:  /Spaɪn/ and other very typical Australian pronunciations.  Finally, there's the one in the middle:  /Spæɪn/.  It depends on how much the vowels have shifted.  I guess some people in the south of the US, not sure exactly which state(s), might say /Spæɪn/.


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## aprendiendo argento

merquiades said:


> Yes, love it.  It's the the classical comical scene from [My Fair Lady - The rain in Spain (wrong)].  This is probably the origin of the Australian pronunciation as with J.G.  Nineteenth century migrations. I'm not sure if it was exaggerated here just for the comic effect of the film/musical.
> 
> 
> 
> I just realized it's true the people in Southeast England pronounce their /ʌ/ closer to /ɐ/:  It can sound close to /a/: /batter ap the ban/, /kap av ti:/.  There is a similar vowel in Portuguese and I recognize it.  I've also heard Brits, not just Cockney speakers, say /tu:-'dɐI), yet still it seems to me that (many, most) Australians go further and do say /ai/.  See my other post.



According to OED (Oxford Dictionary of English) 

some /sʌm, s(ə)m/ 
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/some?q=some 
Sam /sam/ 
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/Sam+Browne 
 /sɒm/ is a river in France (Somme) 
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/Somme?q=somme 

-- 
flush  /flʌʃ/ 
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/flush?q=flush 

flash /flaʃ/ 
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/flash?q=flash 


In the contemporary RP (as well as in Cambridge and Oxford accents) /ʌ/ is indeed [ɐ], but it is never [a], since [a] is the value of old-RP /æ/ [æ] (which is now /æ/ [a]). 

It is a bit of paradox that in London [flaʃ] can mean both _flush _and _flash,_ depending on the accent_: flush_ in the low class accent and Cockney dialect and _flash _in the middle and upper class accents, and contemporary RP.

[flaʃ] is how FLUSH is pronounced in Australia and in the Cockney dialect, but it's how FLASH is pronounced in contemporary RP.

Newer dictionaries published by Oxford University Press use [a] for the old(er) [æ] (_trap _vowel), this is called Upton-revised IPA.


_flash / flesh _confusion is possible between the modern RP / shifted Canadian/Californian ~  Kiwi / shifted Inland North (Chicago, Detroit)
_flash / flush_ confusion is possible between the modern RP / shifted Canadian/Californian ~ Cockney / Australian


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## Youngfun

aprendiendo argento said:


> _flash / flesh _confusion is possible between the modern RP / shifted Canadian/Californian ~  Kiwi / shifted Inland North (Chicago, Detroit)
> _flash / flush_ confusion is possible between the modern RP / shifted Canadian/Californian ~ Cockney / Australian


Hi, aprendiendo!
That's interesting.
As a non native speaker, I think that when I'm more careful to pronunciation, I would pronounce _flash_ as /flæʃ/, and _flush_ as something close to /flʌʃ/.
But when I don't a attention in casual talking, I would pronounce _flash_ as /flɛʃ/, and _flush_ as /flaʃ/.
So am I a mix between Kiwi / shifted North Inland and Cockney / Australian?
P.S. Here we were talking about diphtongs, not simple vowels. 



merquiades said:


> The posh one tries to approximate RP British speech a little bit, so they'd say something close to /Speɪn/.  Then the broad accent (Julia Gillard is given as an example) is the strongest:  /Spaɪn/ and other very typical Australian pronunciations.  Finally, there's the one in the middle:  /Spæɪn/.


I think /Spein/ is possible too in "the one in the middle", and that American English has actually more influence on young people than British.
But perhaps my Australian friends are not good example of "genuine" Australian since they are raised in Australia, but one has Chinese origin, and the other has Filipino origins.
Maybe the _RP-ish_ posh accent must be really old-fashioned in Australia, if even the Prime Minister speaks with the broad accent.

Since this thread is also about the diphthongization of /i:/...
I've listened to the pronunciation of the word exactly in the WR dictionary, and to me the UK pronunciation sounds very close to [ɪg'zakʔlej].
I also feel that British /gz/ is less voiced than American.


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## berndf

aprendiendo argento said:


> In the contemporary RP (as well as in Cambridge and Oxford accents) /ʌ/ is indeed [ɐ], but it is never [a], since [a] is the value of old-RP /æ/ [æ] (which is now /æ/ [a]).


I disagree. The London /ʌ/ still stays above the [ɐ]/[a] divide. Even if _flash _is realized with a central [a] as in Northern Accents, the distinguishably between _flush _and _flash _is not impaired.


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## merquiades

For those of you wanting to check out and compare Australian accents here's a good link


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## aprendiendo argento

Here they give  [dɛˑɪ] for Australian _day_:
http://www.lel.ed.ac.uk/research/gsound/Eng/Database/Phonetics/Englishes/ByWord/Word_014_day.htm


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