# إنْ / إذا (conditional)



## Qureshpor

Could you please point out for me the difference achieved by the use of "in" and "idzaa" in the following conditional sentence.

This is the context:

[in saraqtu wa sa'alanii 'an haadzaa rasuula_llaahu fa-maa aquulu lahu jawaab-an]

in qultu laa, Khuntu_l'ahda bi_kidzb

wa idzaa qultu na'm, qaTa'a yadii


----------



## DireStraits1

For me, there is no difference between 'in' and "Idza', they're synonyms and the example confirms it.


----------



## Qureshpor

DireStraits1 said:


> For me, there is no difference between 'in' and "Idza', they're synonyms and the example confirms it.



I believe there must be a subtle difference otherwise in or idzaa could have been used in both places. The seperate use must point to a subtlety which has perhaps disappeared from the modern language.


----------



## Muwahid

إن would be used more for distant possibilities and hypotheses. إن شاء الله may even demonstrate this (If it's the case that Allah has willed it sth. will happen) Where as إذا would be used for general possibilities that may not be a shock if the condition is true. "If you're here/there, If you want, etc" These days I think إذا is just more common and subtle connotations are perhaps less apparent?


----------



## Qureshpor

Muwahid said:


> إن would be used more for distant possibilities and hypotheses. إن شاء الله may even demonstrate this (If it's the case that Allah has willed it sth. will happen) Where as إذا would be used for general possibilities that may not be a shock if the condition is true. "If you're here/there, If you want, etc" These days I think إذا is just more common and subtle connotations are perhaps less apparent?



*[in saraqtu wa sa'alanii 'an haadzaa rasuula_llaahu fa-maa aquulu lahu jawaab-an]
*
If I steal and the Messenger of Allah asks me about this, then what will be my reply?

*in qultu laa, Khuntu_l'ahda bi_kidzb*

If I say no, I have betrayed the promise with a lie

*wa idzaa qultu na'm, qaTa'a yadii*

and when I say yes, he will cut my hand.

 This is how I feel this can be resolved. He has made a promise to the Prophet not to lie and wants very much to keep his promise. So he uses "in" for this condition because the likelihood is that he is not going to tell a lie.

In fact he is more likely to tell the truth but *when* *(idzaa) *he does that the result will be extreme because he will have his hand cut. [So, he stops stealing..]

Therefore I wonder if *"idzaa" *here is more of a "when" than an "if". If my understanding is correct, in Classical Arabic "lammaa" was used as "when" for past events and "idzaa" for present/future. I hope all this make sense.


----------



## lukebeadgcf

QURESHPOR said:


> *[in saraqtu wa sa'alanii 'an haadzaa rasuula_llaahu fa-maa aquulu lahu jawaab-an]
> *
> If I steal and the Messenger of Allah asks me about this, then what will be my reply?
> 
> *in qultu laa, Khuntu_l'ahda bi_kidzb*
> 
> If I say no, I have betrayed the promise with a lie
> 
> *wa idzaa qultu na'm, qaTa'a yadii*
> 
> and when I say yes, he will cut my hand.
> 
> This is how I feel this can be resolved. He has made a promise to the Prophet not to lie and wants very much to keep his promise. So he uses "in" for this condition because the likelihood is that he is not going to tell a lie.
> 
> In fact he is more likely to tell the truth but *when* *(idzaa) *he does that the result will be extreme because he will have his hand cut. [So, he stops stealing..]
> 
> Therefore I wonder if *"idzaa" *here is more of a "when" than an "if". If my understanding is correct, in Classical Arabic "lammaa" was used as "when" for past events and "idzaa" for present/future. I hope all this make sense.



lamma doesn't usually carry a conditional meaning, whereas idzaa almost always does. And I agree, idzaa particularly in Classical Arabic, translates more appropriately to "when," instead of "if."


----------



## Qureshpor

lukebeadgcf said:


> lamma doesn't usually carry a conditional meaning, whereas idzaa almost always does. And I agree, idzaa particularly in Classical Arabic, translates more appropriately to "when," instead of "if."



I was pointing to the fact that in Classical Arabci "when" for past was "lammaa" and for present/future "idzaa"


----------



## lukebeadgcf

QURESHPOR said:


> I was pointing to the fact that in Classical Arabci "when" for past was "lammaa" and for present/future "idzaa"



Yes, lammaa is used as "when" for the past tense like:

lamma saafartu ilaa hunaak... When I traveled there...

Idzaa may be used for the future, but the point is that it is conditional, introducing a protasis which is plausible. If we were comparing conditional particles, it would be more appropriate to compare idzaa إذا and law لو. The latter introduces a highly improbable protasis and is more apt for conditions situated in the past.


----------



## Qureshpor

My implication is that perhaps idzaa was only a temporal particle in Classical Arabic, but used for present/future whereas lammaa was temporal for the past situation. Later on, idzaa has taken on the role of a conditional and finally displacing "in" from the modern language almost altogether. I could be totally wrong.


----------



## lukebeadgcf

QURESHPOR said:


> My implication is that perhaps idzaa was only a temporal particle in Classical Arabic, but used for present/future whereas lammaa was temporal for the past situation. Later on, idzaa has taken on the role of a conditional and finally displacing "in" from the modern language almost altogether. I could be totally wrong.



You could also be right. I am MSA-biased.


----------



## إسكندراني

إذا I associate with the German for 'if', which is 'wenn' - and also means 'when'.


----------



## إسكندراني

QURESHPOR said:


> My implication is that perhaps idzaa was only a temporal particle in Classical Arabic, but used for present/future whereas lammaa was temporal for the past situation. Later on, idzaa has taken on the role of a conditional and finally displacing "in" from the modern language almost altogether. I could be totally wrong.



It still means 'when' in some dialects.


----------



## Ibn Nacer

Hello,

What do you think of this:



 إذا، وقد تَلحقُها (ما) الزائدةُ للتوكيد، فيقالُ: (إذا ما). وهي اسمُ زمانٍ تضمنَ معنى الشرط. ولا تجزم إلا في الشعر، كقول الشاعر:ا

 *إستَغْنِ، ما أغناكَ ربُّكَ، بالغِنى * وإذا تُصِبْكَ خَصاصَةٌ فَتَجَمَّلِ*

 وقد يُجزَمُ بها في النثر على قِلَّة : ومنه حديثُ علي وفاطمة، رضيَ الله عنهما : "إذا أخذتُما مَضاجِعَكما، تُكَبِّرا أربعاً وثلاثين".ا

والفرقُ بين (إنْ) : أن الأولى تدخل على ما يُشَكُّ في حصولهِ. والثانية تَدخل على ما هو مُحقّقُ الحصول. فإن قلتَ (إن جئت أكرمتك)، فأنتَ شاكٌّ في مجيئه، وإن قلتَ : (إذا جئت أَكرمتُكَ)، فأنتَ على يقين من مجيئه.ا(والجزم باذا شاذ، للمنافاة بينها وبين "إن" الشرطية. وذلك أن أدواتِ الشرط إنما تجزم لتضمنها معنى "إن" : التي هي موضوعة للابهام والشك، وكلمة "إذا" موضوعة للتحقيق فهما متنافيتان).ا

​Source : http://islamport.com/w/lqh/Web/2185/131.htm


----------



## Ibn Nacer

Bonsoir,

J'ai aussi vu cela (http://www.welovearabic.com/qawaed/part2/100-47-o-.html) : 


هناك فرق يسير في المعنى  بين (إذا) و(إن)، وهو أن الأصل أن تكون (إذا) لِما يتحقّق، و(إن) لما يُشكّ  فيه. ولكن قد يقع في الاستعمال تعاقُبهما

​ 

Comment vous comprenez/traduiriez la phrase qui est donné dans le lien :

إذا كانَ عندي وقتٌ فسوفَ أزُورُك غداً​
1 - "*Si j'ai du temps je te rendrai visite demain"* c'est-à-dire un  potentiel, dans ce cas idhâ serait utilisé avec le sens de In. 
2- Ou "*Quand  j'aurai du temps je te rendrai visite demain*".

Merci.


----------



## إسكندراني

Somewhere in between.


----------



## Ibn Nacer

Ok thank you.


---------------

I found this: تكون "إذا" شرطاً فِي وقت موقت. تقول: "إذا خرجتَ خرجتُ".ا

- But I'm not sure I understand its meaning especially the part "فِي وقت موقت", what do you think ?

- How would you translate the example : إذا خرجتَ خرجتُ

1 - When you (will) go I will go out.
2 - If you go I will go out.
3 - If/when you go I go.

Thank you.


----------



## إسكندراني

Again, somewhere in between. It means 'if', but it is used only where you expect the thing to happen. So in that sense it also means 'when'. If forced to translate, choose 'when' for carefully written or classical texts.


----------



## Ibn Nacer

Ok thank you.


----------



## Ali Smith

So in أَلاَ وَإِنَّ فِي الجَسَدِ مُضْغَةً : إِذَا صَلَحَتْ صَلَحَ الجَسَدُ كُلُّهُ ، وَإِذَا فَسَدَتْ فَسَدَ الجَسَدُ كُلُّهُ ، أَلاَ وَهِيَ القَلْبُ the meaning is:

Behold, and indeed in the body is a piece of flesh which, when it is sound, the whole body is sound, and when it is bad, the whole body is bad. Behold, and it is the heart.

Today I heard a scholar translate إذا as "if" in both places.


----------



## Qureshpor

Ali Smith said:


> So in أَلاَ وَإِنَّ فِي الجَسَدِ مُضْغَةً : إِذَا صَلَحَتْ صَلَحَ الجَسَدُ كُلُّهُ ، وَإِذَا فَسَدَتْ فَسَدَ الجَسَدُ كُلُّهُ ، أَلاَ وَهِيَ القَلْبُ the meaning is:
> 
> Behold, and indeed in the body is a piece of flesh which, when it is sound, the whole body is sound, and when it is bad, the whole body is bad. Behold, and it is the heart.
> 
> Today I heard a scholar translate إذا as "if" in both places.


Probably, the scholar was using the modern idiom. In Qur'anic Arabic, as far as I know إِذَا means "when", when present/future is implied and لمّا when a past event is being described.

I learnt recently that according to some (if not all) Classical Arabic grammarians, the conditional particles are  إن , لو and  أَما where as إذ , لمّا and إِذَا are put in the slot of ظرف. Therefore, by this definition إِذَا can not be a conditional particle and therefore can not mean "if" in Qur'anic and Classical Arabic language. By this reckoning...

إن طلعت الشّمسُ would be wrong because the sun always rises...whereas

إِذَا طلعت الشّمسُ would be right.


----------



## Ali Smith

DireStraits1 said:


> For me, there is no difference between 'in' and "Idza', they're synonyms and the example confirms it.


If they were synonymous you would find narrators of the same hadith replacing إن with إذا and vice versa. As it turns out, however, we never find people substituting one for the other. This proves that the Arabs of the first few centuries after the coming of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) certainly did not consider them interchangeable.


----------



## Adeejay

They mean exactly the same thing in MSA though, but in is never used in MSA.


----------



## jack_1313

Adeejay said:


> but in is never used in MSA.


This doesn't accord with my experience at all , though إذا may be more common for a simple "if".


----------



## Ali Smith

Qureshpor said:


> Probably, the scholar was using the modern idiom. In Qur'anic Arabic, as far as I know إِذَا means "when", when present/future is implied and لمّا when a past event is being described.
> 
> I learnt recently that according to some (if not all) Classical Arabic grammarians, the conditional particles are  إن , لو and  أَما where as إذ , لمّا and إِذَا are put in the slot of ظرف. Therefore, by this definition إِذَا can not be a conditional particle and therefore can not mean "if" in Qur'anic and Classical Arabic language. By this reckoning...
> 
> إن طلعت الشّمسُ would be wrong because the sun always rises...whereas
> 
> إِذَا طلعت الشّمسُ would be right.


Similarly, the disbelievers said أَإِذَا مِتْنَا وَكُنَّا تُرَابًا وَعِظَامًا أَإِنَّا لَمَبْعُوثُونَ, not أإن متنا وكنا ترابا وعظاما, because they knew they would die eventually; it was only a matter of _when_. So yes, إذا was not a conditional particle in classical Arabic; it was a ظَرْف, like لَمّا and إِذْ.

jack_1313: I have never come across إِنْ 'if' in MSA. Have you?


----------



## WadiH

It's hard to know what exactly American pedagogues have in mind when they talk about "MSA", but إنْ is used all the time in written Arabic, and it is used in many dialects, too.


----------



## jack_1313

Ali Smith said:


> jack_1313: I have never come across إِنْ 'if' in MSA. Have you?


It appears in several common fixed phrases or variants of them, such as إن صح التعبير and إن كان الأمر كذلك, and of course in the phrase وإن, where the meaning becomes "even if" in the sense of "even though".

As for its use in less rigid contexts, it seems normal to me, but for that very reason I haven't got any examples off the top of my head. However, just try Googling very generic phrases like "إن فعل ذلك فهو" or "إن فعلت ذلك" to for evidence of its real-world usage.


----------

