# Ask oneself/ wonder



## ThomasK

I would like to know: (1) can you use _*ask oneself*_ literally in your language? Or  is it uncommon?

And (2) do you have a verb like _*wonder*_ as well, which refers to amazement, or a more speculative thought, so it seems, but which implies at least asking questions ? 

Some sentences: 
a _- I ask myself what time she will be here_
_b - I ask myself if I have performed well really_
_c - I ask myself whether I ought to be doing this ;-)_
_d - I *wonder* if there is life after death_
_e - I *wonder* about the future of mankind, this planet_ 
I think 'wonder' would not be impossible in a-c. 

Dutch:
(1) *zich afvragen* (a-d, for e we need a paraphrase like I am curious)
(2) Not really. Maybe _zich verwonderen_, or _verwonderd zijn_ (but perfective), but I do not consider them synonyms, because the association with questions is not there, or not really. It would not fit into e for example.  

German:
(1) _*sich fragen*_, I think.
(2) _*sich wundern*_...


----------



## Maroseika

Russian:

1) "I ask myself" is possible but is used in very special cases for sounding too bookish (and probably being a calque of 19 cent.).
More used constructions are:
a) I'd like to know / It is interesting, what time she will be here.
b, c) I think about / I torture (bore) myself with the question...


2) "I wonder" is not used.
d) "It's interesting", whether there is a life after death.
e) "I ponder over" the future of mankind.


----------



## ThomasK

How about expressing expressing amazement, wonder: do you have verbs in Russian for that (not _I am ..._)? 'Ponder' is fine, but there is no idea of amazement implied in it. One of the key aspects, probably universal, is: I guess it should be followed by an indirect question...


----------



## apmoy70

In Greek:


			
				ThomasK said:
			
		

> (1) can you use *ask oneself* literally in your language? Or is it uncommon?


Yes we can (not literally though) and it's very common. We use the verb «αναρωτιέμαι» (anarotç*e*me) or in its more "archaic" form, «αναρωτώμαι» (anarot*o*me) for it. It derives from the Byzantine ἀναρωτῶ (anaro'to), which in turn derives from the ancient ἀνερωτῶ (anero'tō). In ancient times as you can see, the verb was in active voice and meant "to examine, to inspect". In modern Greek the verb is in mediopassive voice and it can be translated as "to examine oneself, to inspect oneself".


			
				ThomasK said:
			
		

> (2) do you have a verb like *wonder* as well, which refers to amazement, or a more speculative thought, so it seems, but which implies at least asking questions ?


No, we don't. We translate "wonder" (in its speculative/questioning thought) as «αναρωτιέμαι» or, (more accurately IMHO) as «διερωτώμαι» (ðierot*o*me). Διερωτώμαι carries the baggage of speculation/consideration with it, more than αναρωτιέμαι. Διερωτώμαι derives from the ancient διερωτῶ (ðiero'tō), which meant "to engage in speculation". Again, from active voice in ancient Greek, the verb is in mediopassive in modern Greek and can be translated as "to engage in speculation within oneself".  
We do have verb(s) which refer to amazement->θαυμάζω (θavm*a*zo), lit. "to look with amazement, to marvel"; or periphrastically->μένω έκπληκτος (m*e*no *e*kpliktos, _m._), έκπληκτη (*e*kplikti, _f._), έκπληκτο (*e*kplikto, _n._), lit. "to be amazed/at a loss" 

PS: I like your queries ThomasK, they're mind-bongling


----------



## berndf

German _sich wundern_ cannot be used in the same way as _to wonder_. The German verb expresses astonishment about an established fact and not wondering about something being true or not.


----------



## Alxmrphi

> Some sentences:
> a _- I ask myself what time she will be here_
> _b - I ask myself if I have performed well really_
> _c - I ask myself whether I ought to be doing this ;-)_
> _d - I *wonder* if there is life after death_
> _e - I *wonder* about the future of mankind, this planet_
> I think 'wonder' would not be impossible in a-c.


 
Wonder (in English) would sound fine in a-c, it's "_ask myself_" that does not work in a-c.
You can 'ask yourself' in Italian though, there are 2 ways of expressing it:

Domandarsi (lit. to ask 'question' onself) 
Chiedersi (lit. to ask onself)

Mi chiedo dove sia lei. (I wonder where she is)
Mi domando se sia giusto o no. (I wonder if it's right)


----------



## akerta

In French, 'je me demande si ...' (literally 'I ask myself if') is extremely common. I don't think there's another way of saying 'I wonder if...'.
In Spanish, it's the same as French: 'me pregunto si...' 
It's really the same in Dutch too, right? 'Ik vraag me af of ze zal komen'?


----------



## ThomasK

Alxmrphi said:


> Wonder (in English) would sound fine in a-c, it's "_ask myself_" that does not work in a-c.


 
Thanks, but can one use 'ask oneself' in English, and when/ where ?


----------



## Alxmrphi

It is possible, but not in many circumstances, the only examples that come to mind are when you might be describing a previous situation to a friend, for example..

_"And I was standing at the bus stop... asking myself / wondering 'What the hell am I doing here?' then 5 mins later she turned up..."_

In a statement, like it seemd your examples were, it wouldn't be idiomatic English, I've never heard that, but when speaking to someone and being a bit figurative (where you aren't actually 'asking yourself' but it suits as a metaphor for thinking something) then it would be ok to use.

Besides that example, I'm not sure when else I'd use it, or have ever heard it used.
It's used in other figurative senses, like "_Before you make a judgement, you have to ask yourself if this is something you really want to do.",_ again, it's not really 'asking yourself' but a metaphor for 'thinking about'.


----------



## akerta

The question is really interesting, I would be curious to hear how it functions in Croatian as well: you can say 'pitam se zašto ...' which would mean literally 'I ask myself why... ' right?


----------



## Malti

Alxmrphi said:


> it's "_ask myself_" that does not work in a-c.



I think "ask myself" is fine in _a_-_c_. _b _sounds a bit off to me, but it's the "if I have performed well really" that I don't like, not the "ask myself"/"wonder".


----------



## Alxmrphi

Would you ever, as a statement, turn to someone and say "I ask myself what time she'll be here" ?
If in a situation where you're not sure what to do, start talking to the person closest to you and say "I ask myself if I ought to be doing this" ?


----------



## akerta

nooo lol. If I said that, my mother would immediately correct me with 'I wonder if' ...  
(She speaks US English.)


----------



## Alxmrphi

Hi akerta, what statement are you referring to sorry?


----------



## akerta

Alxmrphi said:


> Hi akerta, what statement are you referring to sorry?



oh sorry, I was answering your question 'would you ever turn to someone and say 'I ask myself if...'

That is, she'd say the correct sentences are: 'I wonder what time she'll be here' and 'I wonder what I ought to do' or 'I wonder if I should be doing this' etc.


----------



## Alxmrphi

Ah thank you, my question was directed at Malti (because they said it sounded fine), but I am in agreement with you, I wouldn't say it and would correct a learner of English (like your US-speaking mother)



> That is, she'd say the correct sentences are: 'I wonder what time she'll be here' and 'I wonder what I ought to do'


 agreed.


----------



## Malti

Alxmrphi said:


> Would you ever, as a statement, turn to someone and say "I ask myself what time she'll be here" ?
> If in a situation where you're not sure what to do, start talking to the person closest to you and say "I ask myself if I ought to be doing this" ?



Definitely to the second one, I'd say "I ask myself if I really ought to be doing this.", though not in the case where I didn't know what to do, but in the case where I wasn't sure what I was doing was right/best. The first I think I'd usually say the "wonder" version, but the "ask myself" doesn't sound wrong to me. And in the past tense I'd say "I asked myself what time she would be here." in preference to "I wondered what time she would be here.".


----------



## Forero

_Wonder_ is one of those verbs that can have a "continuous" meaning without using _be_ + _-ing_ form. For example, "I wonder" can mean "I am wondering". _Ask_ sometimes behaves this way too, but in the sample sentences, I would want to be explicit:

a*'* _- I *am *ask*ing* myself what time she will be here._
_b*'* - I *am *ask*ing* myself if I have performed well really._
_c*'* - I *am* ask*ing* myself whether I ought to be doing this._
__ 
Otherwise "I ask myself" suggests doing it multiple times.


----------



## ThomasK

May I ask: this is quite interesting, but is there a native speaker of English who could formulate *a practical (and generally accepted)  rule about the use of 'ask oneself' vs. 'wonder'* ? 

Other contributions from other language still welcome to comment on any difference from their perspective !


----------



## clevermizo

ThomasK said:


> May I ask: this is quite interesting, but is there a native speaker of English who could formulate *a practical (and generally accepted)  rule about the use of 'ask oneself' vs. 'wonder'* ?
> 
> Other contributions from other language still welcome to comment on any difference from their perspective !



Honestly, I would rarely if ever say "ask myself" in any context. It sounds a little old-fashioned or poetic to me.


----------



## sakvaka

1) I believe English and *Finnish* deal with this question very similarly. In my language I would be "asking myself" things only when I've done something bad and want to know the reason to it, or just analyze my personality. In every case the wondering should concern me or my behaviour (it also sounds a bit poetical). There are many common ways to generate other types of sentences with wonder: for example, the particle -hAn or the verb 'mahtaa'. They both make questions more polite and indirect. 

In other words, it sounds strange to say "I am asking myself if it tastes good". However, "I am asking myself if it really tastes so good that I would eat it and forget my diet" would make sense. It seems that the first example isn't a question to which you could find an answer inside you or just by rationalizing.

2) The verb 'to wonder' (feel wonder at) is 'ihmetellä'. It can also be followed by a dependent clause. 

In the sense of speculating curiously, "to wonder" can be translated with the verb "miettiä" (think) or "pohtia" (ponder). The particle -hAn is also common if the original sentence is an indirect question.

Your sentences in Finnish:
a - Mihinkähän aikaan hän on täällä?
b - Mahdoinko esiintyä hyvin?
c - Kysyn itseltäni, pitäisikö minun tehdä tätä. / Pitäisiköhän minun tehdä tätä?
d - Onkohan kuolemanjälkeistä elämää? / Mietin, onko kuolemanjälkeistä elämää.  
e - Pohdin ihmissuvun tulevaisuutta tällä planeetalla.


----------



## badtrip

Hello!
That's an interesting question and I can probably explain how it works in Polish language.

As to (1) - yes. Polish is very flexible and you can go all around it and the thing you say would probably be right, so to "ask onself" would literally be: *Pytam siebie*. It can be used in different contexts, for example there's a song titled exactly "Pytam siebie" and it goes:

_Siadam przed stołem i *pytam siebie* czy
Dalej wieje wiatr w moją smutna twarz_

It can be literally translated into: 

_I sit in front of the table and I *ask myself* whether 
the wind is still blowing right into my sad face_

It's relatively common thing in Polish, you can hear it on the street but I guess it's going to be marginalized in time to literature and poetry... but still it's more common to use the verb "wonder" - so "I wonder" would be: "zastanawiam się". 

So we're at (2) now and as I mentioned before - yes, in Polish there is a form for "to wonder (about sth)" and it's "zastanawiać się". You can actually use different words and verbs to say the same (as I said before, Polish is very flexible and right now there are lots of slang words and it's common to say "kminić" or "ogarniać" instead of "zastanawiać" but it's probably the youth only.. and it's another discussion)

So,

you can both "wonder" and "ask oneself" if the wind is still blowing right into your face in Polish and the fragment of song I posted would be

(1)
_Siadam przed stołem i *pytam siebie* czy
 Dalej wieje wiatr w moją smutna twarz_

(2)
_Siadam przed stołem i *zastanawiam się* czy
 Dalej wieje wiatr w moją smutna twarz_


----------



## jazyk

> In French, 'je me demande si ...' (literally 'I ask myself if') is extremely common. I don't think there's another way of saying 'I wonder if...'.
> In Spanish, it's the same as French: 'me pregunto si...'


Same thing in Portuguese: pergunto-me/me pergunto se...


----------



## ThomasK

The other question is: do you think of questions in Polish, Portugese, when using the expression? Somehow we do, whereas strictly speaking it is not a real question of course... 

Polish: are 1 and 2 different to some extent to you (pytam siebe and zast...) ?


----------



## badtrip

ThomasK said:


> Polish: are 1 and 2 different to some extent to you (pytam siebe and zast...) ?



Yeah, it has completely different meaning. If you're the narrator of the song I've posted above then while using "Pytam siebie" you imply that you have no idea what's going on around and you're confused, and when you use "Zastanawiam się..." then you say that you just sit and wonder what's going on.
It's details that vary depending on the context of the sentence. You can use "pytam siebie" while speaking of something you've done while telling it to your friends and it would mean something completely different than "zastanawiam się" in the context.


----------



## ThomasK

Interesting subtleties, thanks. But is there some amazement involved in 'zasta...', which there is in English ?


----------



## Maroseika

ThomasK said:


> How about expressing expressing amazement, wonder: do you have verbs in Russian for that (not _I am ..._)? 'Ponder' is fine, but there is no idea of amazement implied in it. One of the key aspects, probably universal, is: I guess it should be followed by an indirect question...


Standard way to express amazement is inversion: 
'Would like I know' instead of 'I'd like to know' (Хотел бы я знать instead of Я бы хотел знать).


----------



## badtrip

ThomasK said:


> Interesting subtleties, thanks. But is there some amazement involved in 'zasta...', which there is in English ?



Well, it's kinda hard to tell because it all depends on the context and form of the word that you use. 

If you'd say: "*Zastanawia*m się nad sensem życia" it would be: "I'm wondering about the purpose of life" or something close to that. But if you'd say: "Naprawdę? *Zastanawia*jące!" you'd say: "O really? Amazing/Interesting!" 

You can "zastanawiać się nad czymś" - "to wonder about something", you can say: "zastanawiające" and depending on intonation & context it can mean: "amazing" or "interesting" or "hard to believe" or anything in this area. 

The idea is that in polish you have LOTS of words, some of them you actually use, some you don't and depending on the way you'd say them they can mean lots of things. There are at least 5 words that come to my mind which I could use to express wondering about something in slightly different ways with slightly different meanings.

Here's the six that just came to my mind in three seconds

Rozmyślać - to wonder deeply, to think deeply about sth
Myśleć - to just think / wonder, used in various contexts
Przemyśleć - after you've heard something you sometimes need to wonder about it further, rethink it etc., so that's the verb

Zastanawiać - elaborated on it above
Ogarniać, Kminić - two slang forms used by youngsters now used in totally different meanings and contexts depending on the situation but they can mean "to wonder" too.


----------



## Natalisha

In Russian we can also express amazement using the impersonal sentence _"интересно"_ (it's interesting) and sometimes adding _"и"_ (and) or/and the particle _"бы"_ (can be translated as "could") for emphasis: 

 I wonder who it was. - Интересно, (и) кто (бы) это мог быть. (It's interesting and who it could be.)


----------



## Meyer Wolfsheim

The reflexive construction "to ask oneself" does not have any place in spoken English; a native will never say it unless trying to give some sort of style or tone to his speech.  You can find it in writing, especially older works and it is more than alloweable in modern day writing but it is seldomly used unless you need a new word for "to wonder" (We are taught in English that it is terrible to use repetition of a word in any writing).  

Unlike what the case may be in other languages, "to ask myself" and "to wonder" are interchangeable and have the same diction; there is no special difference.  However some cases you cannot switch one for another:

I wonder if it's going to snow today
I ask myself if it's going to snow today.  

The present tense is not very favorable to my ears.


----------



## ThomasK

I suppose I went too far in suggesting it might be possible in English to say 'to ask oneself'. It had to do with the phenomenon in Dutch (_zich afvragen_) and the variation that is possible in German (_sich wundern/ sich fragen_). IN fact what triggered this question was the fact that Sakvaka, who is Finnish, had mentioned in a private exchange - or so I understood it - that *asking [oneself] questions was a very strange kind of paraphrase of to wonder for him*. So the main idea was: does this association with asking exist in your language, and if a variation is possible, is there any difference in meaning between 'wonder' and 'ask'... 

@Natalisha: this variation is very interesting. But is 'interesting' the best translation of 'interesto' in Russian? It seems logical of course, but how old is that word ? Can you not use things like 'amazing' ? 
The 'and' is also very special to me; I had expected 'that' instead of 'and'. The whole sentence reminded me of special verbs: * Interestingly it had stopped raining. 

Important issue: in these cases a question is no longer implied. I should perhaps have focused on syntax as well: *is your [translation of] I wonder followed by if/whether or by that plus subclause*? As far as I can see it is the case, but not always.


----------



## Meyer Wolfsheim

I am not sure if this were mentioned or not, but "ask oneself" is required in English when you are forming a command. This comes from a translation of Le Petit Prince:

"Demandez-vous si...."
"Ask yourselves if..."

You cannot say "Wonder if..."


----------



## ThomasK

Not, it had not been mentioned yet. Interesting addition !


----------

