# client vs. customer



## Morgan

Do client and customer mean the same?

example: I worked in an IT company. Our major _clients\customer_s were AAA, BBB, ZZZ

TIA
Morgan


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## lsp

They are often used interchangeably, even though a client is usually someone using a company's services, while a customer is usually a purchaser of a company's products. Some upscale retailers refer to customers as clients as a snob-appeal contrivance.


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## Morgan

If my company sells both a product (the software) and a service(the project consulting) at the same time, what should I use?

...I back your pardon I don't understand your last phrase


> Some upscale retailers refer to customers as clients as a snob-appeal contrivance



Thank's


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## GenJen54

Morgan, 

I think what Isp is trying to say is that "client" is used as a more formal setting because many people believe the word holds more weight (importance) than the word, "customer," which is considered more informal. The phrase "snob-factor" essentially means that the word has more meaning to certain people because it makes them feel more important.

For example, I shop in a grocery store around the corner. Therefore, I am a customer of that store. Technically, I am also a client, but its a very stuffy word to use in this context.

However, I use the services of a law firm to assist me in writing a will. In that sense, I am a client of the lawyer / law firm. If my law firm were to simply call me a customer (which essentially, I am), I would be offended. 

I think in your case, where your company sells both products and services, you would not go wrong to consider everyone as your "clients." It is more widely accepted (again, that "snob-factor" thing) in corporate business to consider those individuals who purchase your goods and services as clients.

Hope this helps. 

Cheers.

p.s.  I back your pardon....  
This should be:  I beg your pardon.


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## Morgan

Thank's GenJen54.
Now all it's clear.

and..I beg your pardon for my mistake.

bye.


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## modgirl

lsp said:
			
		

> They are often used interchangeably, even though a client is usually someone using a company's services, while a customer is usually a purchaser of a company's products. .


 
I very much agree. I think of a client as the one who purchases a service, not a product. For instance, advertisers refer to people who hire them (the advertisers) to write ads as _clients_.



> Some upscale retailers refer to customers as clients as a snob-appeal contrivance


 
And, and it sounds rather silly sometimes, doesn't it? Can you imagine the people who pick up your trash calling you their _client_?!


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## foxfirebrand

lsp has it exactly right, and modgirl gave a perfect example why [?she] said "usually."

Of course my "sanitation engineers" refer to me as their client, but they're just being pretentious.  Well maybe not, now that I look at this month's bill.  Must've been all those boxes full of musty old books I hauled out a few days ago.


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## modgirl

foxfirebrand said:
			
		

> lsp has it exactly right, and modgirl gave a perfect example why [?she]


 
Well, I'm not a mod_boy_.


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## cuchuflete

modgirl said:
			
		

> Well, I'm not a mod_boy_.



Delightfully off-topic


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## elroy

foxfirebrand said:
			
		

> Must've been all those boxes full of musty old books I hauled out a few days ago.


 
As was that. 

Even though I didn't pay you, could I be considered your client for receiving a valuable lesson from you by making you get rid of all those books?


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## lsp

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> I think what Lsp is trying to say....


Thanks, GenJen for helping me out while I was in the real world.  You said exactly what I meant, but you said it better.


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## foxfirebrand

> Well, I'm not a mod_boy_.


 
I meant lsp, since s/he's the one who said "usually."  And now my confusion expands to the topic of capitalizing the _L_.Isn't that a lower-case _l_ in your posts' headers, L/lsp?  



> Even though I didn't pay you, could I be considered your client for receiving a valuable lesson from you by making you get rid of all those books?


 
Valuable as the lesson was, if it was a service-- doesn't that make me _your_ client?  Oh, I see what you mean, it was you who learned something, even though I was the one who acted on information I learned here?  That's the kind of wonderful site this is, learning flows everywhich way.  And for people of such high intelligence, the clientele is/are unusually friendly!


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## elroy

foxfirebrand said:
			
		

> I meant lsp, since s/he's the one who said "usually." And now my confusion expands to the topic of capitalizing the _L_.Isn't that a lower-case _l_ in your posts' headers, L/lsp?
> 
> 
> 
> Valuable as the lesson was, if it was a service-- doesn't that make me _your_ client? Oh, I see what you mean, it was you who learned something, even though I was the one who acted on information I learned here? That's the kind of wonderful site this is, learning flows everywhich way. And for people of such high intelligence, the clientele is/are unusually friendly!


 
I learned a lesson about hasty generalizations.  Remember?  I thanked you for putting me in my place.  If you were my client, you got bad service because the information you "learned" from me was pretty lousy. 

At least that's the way I saw it.  I guess we're all clients of this site, though!


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## lsp

foxfirebrand said:
			
		

> I meant lsp, since s/he's the one who said "usually."  And now my confusion expands to the topic of capitalizing the _L_.Isn't that a lower-case _l_ in your posts' headers, L/lsp?


Most people reply to me as ISP. I don't mind at all and I answer to both, but I'd have made 5000 more posts if I corrected each instance. Periodically I throw in an upper case 'L' and a few more people catch on that it's not an 'i'. So to answer both for the record: 
lsp (not isp), is a she


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## meili

lsp said:
			
		

> So to answer both for the record: lsp (not isp), is a she


lsp is a she.  (I didn't know that.)
I agree to the meaning of customer and client.  A client is someone who purchases or gets your service while a customer is the one who takes advantage or purchases your products.
I also know that there are two kinds of customers: Internal Customers and External Customers.  
I used to work as a Human Resource Information Officer of the HR Department and my co-employees (from other departments but the same company) are our internal customers.  Those who come to us to apply for work are our external customers.


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## annettehola

hi, good morning!

  I'd like to know: WHAT is the real difference between "customer" and "client," and in WHAT SORT of context are the two used respectively?
My idea is: A person who buys a SERVICE rather than a tangible PRODUCT is a "client." (F.x a guest in a hotel, a whorehouse or whatever it might be. I am NOT joking.) A "customer", on the other hand, is a person buying an actual THING. (groceries, a computer, a pair of shoes...)
Am, or am not, I right?
I'm translating slides from Span. In Span. they use "cliente" and a colleague of mine tells me, that he is not satisfied with me translating "cliente" with "customer." I am puzzled over this. Context: software PRODUCTS. I think, it perhaps is because he learned Eng. in America. Could it be that Americans use "client" more than "customer"? That that is the reason?
Comments PLEASE.
Thanks.
Annette


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## PSIONMAN

I don't know the dictionary definition, but there is a difference in the sense conveyed by the two words. When I am giving a presentation to prospective 'clients' I often use the word 'client' to describe our existing 'customers'. It just sounds less like you take money from them, but provide a service and no one gets their hands dirty with money.

I think that today, in general usage, they're synonyms


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## Mr Bones

Hello, I'm interested in that question, too, because I'm not sure about the proper use of these two words in English. I had always thought that it was similar to Spanish. Anyway, I can contribute with a little explanation about Spanish, in which Annete seems to be interested too, and we'll see if it matches with the English one. In Spanish -and I think at both sides of the pond- the word we generaly use is "cliente". We talk about "consumidor" when we are thinking about clients in a more sociological or legal way: rights, movements, associacions, defence of consumers, etc. But I don't think the distinction made by Annete is true in Spanish. You are a client when you are staying at a hotel and when you are buying food. And in both cases you are a consumer, too. If they overcharge you, for instance, you can complain. The government has several places to do it.
Regards, Mr Bones.

Could anyone correct my English, please? It'd be so helpful...


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## PSIONMAN

Perhaps I should mention another shade of meaning.

Clients is used to describe people that receive a service without payment - e.g. some who receives benefits from a Social Services Dept. might be described as a client, but not a customer

Clients is also more genteel than customer - Walmart has customers, Harrods has clients


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## panjandrum

I rather like the customer buys product, client buys service distinction - but it doesn't always work.
Generally, it seems to be a question of choice, not definition.

"Is your service customer-responsive?" works as a question, "...client-responsive" doesn't seem right.

In the particular case of software products, the vendors often like to think that they are establishing relationships with the people who buy their products - hence they may prefer to call them clients.  

Maybe it would be useful to look at the marketing material produced in English by vendors offering similar products?


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## annettehola

Fine enough, Mr. Bones, but there is an Eng. equivalent to "consumidor." This is "consumer." You can consume goods (foods) and these goods go under the name "consumer goods" in Eng.
So? Is "customer" and "client" the same or not?
Annette


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## Brioche

A person who buys goods and/or services is a customer.

Clients are a subset of customers.
They are people who engage *professionals* for advice or services.

For example, lawyers, accountants, stockbrokers and the like have _clients_.

Joan's Mowing Service, Jim's Ironing Service and Gabby's Beauty Parlour have _customers_.

A person buying goods only, or non-professional services would normally be called a customer.

I would normally talk about the '_guests_' in a hotel, rather than customer or clients. 
Perhaps the better class of whorehouse would too.
Ordinary street-walkers refer to their customers as "johns".

I suppose you could say  "The Bloggs Corporation is a good customer of the Regal Hotel", but then we are not talking about people.


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## annettehola

Yeah, NOW it's beginning to make sense.
Thank you, Brioche.
Esp. that about lawyers, brokers and them having "clients." A fine definition and explanation.
Next question: would you call a person who buys software and as a consequence of that has the right to "customer (there it was again! Rascal!) service" a customer or a client?
Annette


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## Brioche

PSIONMAN said:
			
		

> Perhaps I should mention another shade of meaning.
> 
> Clients is used to describe people that receive a service without payment - e.g. some who receives benefits from a Social Services Dept. might be described as a client, but not a customer
> 
> Clients is also more genteel than customer - Walmart has customers, Harrods has clients


 
In the past, the people who depneded on  Social Security in Australia were called "pensioners" if they got a pension, or "beneficiaries" if they got a benefit.

A few years ago, they decided to call the Social Security Delivery Agency "Centrelink", and decreed that the recipients of the government's largesse would be called "customers".  
This was supposed to be empowering for them.  
The people on the other side of the counter are called "customer service officers", and Centrelink rabbits on about giving "good customer service".

I think you'll find that Harrod's has customers.


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## Brioche

annettehola said:
			
		

> Yeah, NOW it's beginning to make sense.
> Thank you, Brioche.
> Esp. that about lawyers, brokers and them having "clients." A fine definition and explanation.
> Next question: would you call a person who buys software and as a consequence of that has the right to "customer (there it was again! Rascal!) service" a customer or a client?
> Annette


 
A really large software company producing "tailor-made" solutions for big corporations might talk about its 'clients'.

I'd call the run-of-the mill purchaser of off-the-shelf software a "customer".


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## foxfirebrand

Here's an earlier thread with exactly the same topic-- and title:

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=41002&highlight=client

It might add something to the discussion.


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## annettehola

Just this: my definition cannot be totally correct, I agree with that. And yet there is no such thing as "Client Service." Sit on it. Is it because the client has already bought a service and so needs no more service? Is it because the customer bought a tangible product that could break or break down and so would need service? 
Client is more posh than customer, I think so; too. Full of prestige for those that obtain that by paying for it.
Annette


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## atlasan

"Client" certainly implies a more person-to-person, involved relationship than the more general "customer".

Customers buy bread and cheese. Clients seek tax advice and investment counselling!


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## annettehola

Yes, all it really is when it comes down to it is verbal snobbery.
"Purchase" for "buy".
"Seek" for "look for".
"Counselling" for "advice".
"Client" for "customer".

It's worthless.

Annette


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## atlasan

It's not worthless to make distinctions, is it? 

Annettehole, have you been reading Orwell's Newspeak dictionary? It's said to be double plus good because it really roots out verbal snobbery. In fact, it roots out verbs

Seriously, verbal snobbery is a concept that should apply to the way words are selected for use, by the user....the words themselves are innocent of conceit... mere useful tools for self-effacing, modest souls, like us.


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## annettehola

Oh, yeah? The words sort of invented themselves, did they?
AnnetteholE, I liked that!
Annette
PS: I have never read that dictionary. It sounds profoundly real and funny, though. As for me, I just spoke my mind.
By the way: I think it IS useless to make distinctions. What the heck are they good for? Do you really feel more imPORtant being addressed (that's another example) client than being called (that's the counter-example) customer?
Personally I don't God gives a fiddlers flying fart for whether his worshippers call him that or the Lord or whatever along that line.
I want to say: A thing is a thing. Look at it, see what it does, and say what it is.
Annette


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## GenJen54

> Originally posted by *annettehola*
> And yet there is no such thing as "Client Service."


 
I agree with this in theory (semantically), but practically speaking, "Client Services" do exist and are apart of service industry vernacular. 

I have been in the service industry for several years.  Even though a client originally "buys into" the service my company is "selling," we still provide continued services to them.  They are called "Client Services."


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## atlasan

Hi GenJen54!

I think there is a 'upscale shift' in being a client, as opposed to a (mere!) customer, at least in the perception of most people. Along these lines, wouldn't it be likely for a business to 'flatter' customers by anointing them as 'clients"?  
The fact that an organization deems itself to be serving 'clients' instead of 'customers' does not therefore compel Engligh to agree with the imposed usage --or rather, the usage (of 'client) claimed by those applying it.

I hope my fast-food operator in town doesn't refer to me as one of his "clients" the next time I stop there for a cup of coffee! (If he did, I'd expect the coffee to be about 15 cents more expensive than preciously).

Thanks for the observation,
Atlasan


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## GenJen54

> I think there is a 'upscale shift' in being a client, as opposed to a (mere!) customer, at least in the perception of most people.


 
I don't disagree.  My previous experience was with a law firm (definitely _client_-oriented) and my current role is in development and fundraising for a performing arts venue.  Our "donors" are our clients because they receive "services" (benefits) from us in return for their donations.  In our literature, we refer to this as "donor services."

In theory, they are all "customers," but the agreed-upon and accepted semantic, as previously noted, is "client."  That doens't mean the rest of English has to agree, but certainly means that it is what is mutually acceptable between the "clients" themselves and the organization providing the service.


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## atlasan

That "mutuality" is hollow though, don't you think? As the provider of the service, I'll be glad to refer to you as "O! Radiant Star of the North!" (both on the phone and in all correspondance....as long as you sign the check!

My heavy-handed point is that I think that where intentional action by any group (or even governement) is involved in the application of a term, that term has artificial life which will disappear as soon as the effort to perpetuate it is removed.

Say what we will, but it is the masses who write all living languages, do you agree?


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## foxfirebrand

Some businesses value customers more than other, and some individual business owners feel downright emotional about them.  They're a businessman's life blood.

Since "customers" is what just anybody calls the people they deal or cater to, there are some businesses that use the more honorific "client" out of a genuine feeling toward those people.

In other words it's not all done out of cynicism.  I wouldn't argue with someone who wanted to force the point that semantic upshifting isn't "real" or that euphemism and flattery are terrible things, but there's the school of thought that values civility too.  Let's say a shop owner comes up to you as your package is being wrapped and bagged, asks how you're doing, acts genuinely glad to hear your daughter has stopped partying so much and is getting good grades now, and shakes your hand goodbye and says, "you are my valued customer."  Is he "elevating" the simple right-as-rain word, and therefore to be branded as a phony?

Language that conveys gratitude and affection will promote loyalty in customers.  Most of us can tell if there's an inkling of genuine appreciation in it.
.


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## panjandrum

Let's not get carried away in a euphoric condemnation of all those who have clients, not customers.  There may well be contexts in which the choice of word is determined by cynicism.  But that is not always the case.
Take, for example, the social services example quoted by Psionman a lifetime ago (alternatively, about 15 posts up this thread).

Social workers, and other care professionals, do not consider that they have customers.  Those receiving care do not consider themselves to be customers.  It's easy for doctors and nurses, they have patients.  At some point through the spectrum of health and social care the word patient is no longer valid.  For these care professionals, the people they care for are clients.


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## atlasan

Let's say a shop owner comes up to you as your package is being wrapped and bagged, asks how you're doing, acts genuinely glad to hear your daughter has stopped partying so much and is getting good grades now, and shakes your hand goodbye and says, "you are my valued customer." Is he "elevating" the simple right-as-rain word, and therefore to be branded as a phony?

I would like to meet such a shop keeper. When I consider the felonious snarls we are treated to routinely by resentful clerks here in the US, i can only wonder at the person you posit.


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## atlasan

Dear Foxfirebrand,
In all sincere honesty may I ask if you believe that the shop-keeper is actually ---really---interested in something other than the profits you represent?  I fear his "sincere" joy, etc., at seeing someone in his store is  intensified and reinforeced each time the cash register prints a reciept.

Not cynical, sadly realistic!


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## GenJen54

> I fear his "sincere" joy, etc., at seeing someone in his store is intensified and reinforeced each time the cash register prints a reciept.  Not cynical, sadly realistic!


 
Perhaps from where you come from, but certainly not in my part of the US, nor in my industry. 

When a non-profit organization that provides services not only for its "clients," but other organizations, as well, receives a donation that helps it fulfill its mission, then yes, we are truly grateful for that donation. 

There is no cynicism there, but simple heart-felt thanks for monies given and an opportunity for my organization to continue working to enhance our community via cultural education programs. 

As for Foxfire's example, do you not think it possible that someone - a small shop owner or business owner - cannot feel a genuine gratitude towards his patrons?  These people may be providing money that fills his and/or her pocket, yes, but if he is proud of what he owns, can he/she not be sincerely grateful towards those who chose to shop at his business?

I cannot tell what part of the country you are from, but from where I hail, deals can still be "done on a handshake," and gratitude, whether expressed towards a client or customer, is honest and sincere.  That's what keeps me going back to the local shops as opposed to the larger corporate chains.


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## nycphotography

atlasan said:
			
		

> Customers buy bread and cheese. Clients seek tax advice and investment counselling!


 
And _Marketers_ try to convince customers that they are clients (when in reality they are lucky to be even treated as humans).


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## nycphotography

atlasan said:
			
		

> Say what we will, but it is the masses who write all living languages, do you agree?


 
I think that may have been true more or less, right up until gutenberg and the birth of printed mass market made literature more accessible to the masses.  Then the writers of the living languages, slowly, started to become the writers.

And now, in the media age, you have many camps who contribute to the language.

1) The masses - they still create by speaking, and repeating what they hear.

2) marketers, corporations, politicians, and anyone else who wants to advance some sort of agenda - they twist, warp, and pervert the language to suit their purposes, and in the process, alter it for everyone.

3) the writers (of mass market media) - they create the language that is consumed by millions.  Whether they invent it, or acquire it and put it on blast, they are I suspect the most powerful force in changing language.

4) Finally, lets not leave out the massive impact that the communists had on Mandarin Chinese.


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## bartonig

I feel that client and customer are truly synonyms. Their meanings are one and the same. However, they may have different connotations in some registers (and no difference in other registers).


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## daviesri

They are pretty much the same thing.  In the world of profesional businesses, the word client is prefered.  In corporate business if someone buys something from you they are a client.  In general retail where goods are sold to the public (grocery store, chain retail store, ....), most call those customers.  The general rule is:

You can call a customer either a customer or a client and they will not care.

If you call a client a customer they may be offended so it is best to call them a client.


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## foxfirebrand

atlasan said:
			
		

> _"Let's say a shop *owner* comes up to you..."_
> 
> I would like to meet such a shop *keeper*. When I consider the felonious snarls we are treated to routinely by *resentful clerks* here in the US, i can only wonder at the person you posit.


You can do more than "wonder at the person I posit."  First, get a clearer notion of who I'm talking about.  Then find that person's business.  With your concern for money, I have to assume you're still doing battle with "outlets" like WalMart and BestBuy and CircuitCity and the like.  Places you know about because of mass-market advertising.

Try sizing down a little.  Find a different business zone than the one the mega-mall complexes are located in, and find the kind of place that is run with proprietary interest-- an an attitude that values customers.

You sound like you're trying to argue me out of believing that they even exist.  Problem is, I've know lots of them over the years-- I'm going to prove a little stubborn about denying they exist.  Same with the sincerity-- they value customers because they have the kind who seek them out.  It takes some effort, something beyond simply letting oneself be led by TV advertising, which of course small businesses can't afford.  If more consumers looked for alternatives, and stopped patronizing the mass-market outlets who hire minimum-wage employees to move customers along the aisles and out the door, with an unfriendly "snarl"-- the situation would improve and your "realism" might deteriorate a little.
.


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## Brioche

bartonig said:
			
		

> I feel that client and customer are truly synonyms. Their meanings are one and the same. However, they may have different connotations in some registers (and no difference in other registers).


 
If you muck up those registers, it may have a large effect on your cash register.


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## annettehola

No, I don't. It's the "masses" that use the languages and so make them live (because they are part of their lived lives), but terms like fx. "client" are not written by the "masses," nor are they used by them in normal living speech among people. Why? Because such terms are examples of language that has DIED. Such terms are exactly "terms," not words. They have been created by economical interests. (uh, man, they are going to call me a leftover from the Marxist seventies now. Well, let them.)
  All people in the entire world have their own opinion on this and everything else, and they have a right to air it. True. And that way we built the Tower of Babel. Maybe it was time to write a little graffiti at its holy base; though? Something like Tower of Bla-bla? (uh, now they are going to call me an elitist and an anarchist. Well, let them. I know I don't belong to any -ism.)
Annette


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## panjandrum

annettehola said:
			
		

> [...] It's the "masses" that use the languages and so make them live (because they are part of their lived lives), but terms like fx. "client" are not written by the "masses," nor are they used by them in normal living speech among people.[...]


That may well be true in your world. In mine, *client* is used as a matter of routine - in normal everyday living speech - by thousands of very straightforward, genuine, caring people.
They use *client* from choice, and because it includes, for them, a sense of commitment and engagement between them and their ... their *clients*


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## annettehola

That may well be true in your world.
Annette


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## bartonig

Brioche said:
			
		

> If you muck up those registers, it may have a large effect on your cash register.



A nice play on _register_.


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## Morgan

Do client and customer mean the same?

example: I worked in an IT company. Our major _clients\customer_s were AAA, BBB, ZZZ

TIA
Morgan


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## lsp

They are often used interchangeably, even though a client is usually someone using a company's services, while a customer is usually a purchaser of a company's products. Some upscale retailers refer to customers as clients as a snob-appeal contrivance.


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## Morgan

If my company sells both a product (the software) and a service(the project consulting) at the same time, what should I use?

...I back your pardon I don't understand your last phrase


> Some upscale retailers refer to customers as clients as a snob-appeal contrivance



Thank's


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## GenJen54

Morgan, 

I think what Isp is trying to say is that "client" is used as a more formal setting because many people believe the word holds more weight (importance) than the word, "customer," which is considered more informal. The phrase "snob-factor" essentially means that the word has more meaning to certain people because it makes them feel more important.

For example, I shop in a grocery store around the corner. Therefore, I am a customer of that store. Technically, I am also a client, but its a very stuffy word to use in this context.

However, I use the services of a law firm to assist me in writing a will. In that sense, I am a client of the lawyer / law firm. If my law firm were to simply call me a customer (which essentially, I am), I would be offended. 

I think in your case, where your company sells both products and services, you would not go wrong to consider everyone as your "clients." It is more widely accepted (again, that "snob-factor" thing) in corporate business to consider those individuals who purchase your goods and services as clients.

Hope this helps. 

Cheers.

p.s.  I back your pardon....  
This should be:  I beg your pardon.


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## Morgan

Thank's GenJen54.
Now all it's clear.

and..I beg your pardon for my mistake.

bye.


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## modgirl

lsp said:
			
		

> They are often used interchangeably, even though a client is usually someone using a company's services, while a customer is usually a purchaser of a company's products. .


 
I very much agree. I think of a client as the one who purchases a service, not a product. For instance, advertisers refer to people who hire them (the advertisers) to write ads as _clients_.



> Some upscale retailers refer to customers as clients as a snob-appeal contrivance


 
And, and it sounds rather silly sometimes, doesn't it? Can you imagine the people who pick up your trash calling you their _client_?!


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## foxfirebrand

lsp has it exactly right, and modgirl gave a perfect example why [?she] said "usually."

Of course my "sanitation engineers" refer to me as their client, but they're just being pretentious.  Well maybe not, now that I look at this month's bill.  Must've been all those boxes full of musty old books I hauled out a few days ago.


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## modgirl

foxfirebrand said:
			
		

> lsp has it exactly right, and modgirl gave a perfect example why [?she]


 
Well, I'm not a mod_boy_.


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## cuchuflete

modgirl said:
			
		

> Well, I'm not a mod_boy_.



Delightfully off-topic


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## elroy

foxfirebrand said:
			
		

> Must've been all those boxes full of musty old books I hauled out a few days ago.


 
As was that. 

Even though I didn't pay you, could I be considered your client for receiving a valuable lesson from you by making you get rid of all those books?


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## lsp

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> I think what Lsp is trying to say....


Thanks, GenJen for helping me out while I was in the real world.  You said exactly what I meant, but you said it better.


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## foxfirebrand

> Well, I'm not a mod_boy_.


 
I meant lsp, since s/he's the one who said "usually."  And now my confusion expands to the topic of capitalizing the _L_.Isn't that a lower-case _l_ in your posts' headers, L/lsp?  



> Even though I didn't pay you, could I be considered your client for receiving a valuable lesson from you by making you get rid of all those books?


 
Valuable as the lesson was, if it was a service-- doesn't that make me _your_ client?  Oh, I see what you mean, it was you who learned something, even though I was the one who acted on information I learned here?  That's the kind of wonderful site this is, learning flows everywhich way.  And for people of such high intelligence, the clientele is/are unusually friendly!


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## elroy

foxfirebrand said:
			
		

> I meant lsp, since s/he's the one who said "usually." And now my confusion expands to the topic of capitalizing the _L_.Isn't that a lower-case _l_ in your posts' headers, L/lsp?
> 
> 
> 
> Valuable as the lesson was, if it was a service-- doesn't that make me _your_ client? Oh, I see what you mean, it was you who learned something, even though I was the one who acted on information I learned here? That's the kind of wonderful site this is, learning flows everywhich way. And for people of such high intelligence, the clientele is/are unusually friendly!


 
I learned a lesson about hasty generalizations.  Remember?  I thanked you for putting me in my place.  If you were my client, you got bad service because the information you "learned" from me was pretty lousy. 

At least that's the way I saw it.  I guess we're all clients of this site, though!


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## lsp

foxfirebrand said:
			
		

> I meant lsp, since s/he's the one who said "usually."  And now my confusion expands to the topic of capitalizing the _L_.Isn't that a lower-case _l_ in your posts' headers, L/lsp?


Most people reply to me as ISP. I don't mind at all and I answer to both, but I'd have made 5000 more posts if I corrected each instance. Periodically I throw in an upper case 'L' and a few more people catch on that it's not an 'i'. So to answer both for the record: 
lsp (not isp), is a she


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## meili

lsp said:
			
		

> So to answer both for the record: lsp (not isp), is a she


lsp is a she.  (I didn't know that.)
I agree to the meaning of customer and client.  A client is someone who purchases or gets your service while a customer is the one who takes advantage or purchases your products.
I also know that there are two kinds of customers: Internal Customers and External Customers.  
I used to work as a Human Resource Information Officer of the HR Department and my co-employees (from other departments but the same company) are our internal customers.  Those who come to us to apply for work are our external customers.


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## annettehola

hi, good morning!

  I'd like to know: WHAT is the real difference between "customer" and "client," and in WHAT SORT of context are the two used respectively?
My idea is: A person who buys a SERVICE rather than a tangible PRODUCT is a "client." (F.x a guest in a hotel, a whorehouse or whatever it might be. I am NOT joking.) A "customer", on the other hand, is a person buying an actual THING. (groceries, a computer, a pair of shoes...)
Am, or am not, I right?
I'm translating slides from Span. In Span. they use "cliente" and a colleague of mine tells me, that he is not satisfied with me translating "cliente" with "customer." I am puzzled over this. Context: software PRODUCTS. I think, it perhaps is because he learned Eng. in America. Could it be that Americans use "client" more than "customer"? That that is the reason?
Comments PLEASE.
Thanks.
Annette


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## PSIONMAN

I don't know the dictionary definition, but there is a difference in the sense conveyed by the two words. When I am giving a presentation to prospective 'clients' I often use the word 'client' to describe our existing 'customers'. It just sounds less like you take money from them, but provide a service and no one gets their hands dirty with money.

I think that today, in general usage, they're synonyms


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## Mr Bones

Hello, I'm interested in that question, too, because I'm not sure about the proper use of these two words in English. I had always thought that it was similar to Spanish. Anyway, I can contribute with a little explanation about Spanish, in which Annete seems to be interested too, and we'll see if it matches with the English one. In Spanish -and I think at both sides of the pond- the word we generaly use is "cliente". We talk about "consumidor" when we are thinking about clients in a more sociological or legal way: rights, movements, associacions, defence of consumers, etc. But I don't think the distinction made by Annete is true in Spanish. You are a client when you are staying at a hotel and when you are buying food. And in both cases you are a consumer, too. If they overcharge you, for instance, you can complain. The government has several places to do it.
Regards, Mr Bones.

Could anyone correct my English, please? It'd be so helpful...


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## PSIONMAN

Perhaps I should mention another shade of meaning.

Clients is used to describe people that receive a service without payment - e.g. some who receives benefits from a Social Services Dept. might be described as a client, but not a customer

Clients is also more genteel than customer - Walmart has customers, Harrods has clients


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## panjandrum

I rather like the customer buys product, client buys service distinction - but it doesn't always work.
Generally, it seems to be a question of choice, not definition.

"Is your service customer-responsive?" works as a question, "...client-responsive" doesn't seem right.

In the particular case of software products, the vendors often like to think that they are establishing relationships with the people who buy their products - hence they may prefer to call them clients.  

Maybe it would be useful to look at the marketing material produced in English by vendors offering similar products?


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## annettehola

Fine enough, Mr. Bones, but there is an Eng. equivalent to "consumidor." This is "consumer." You can consume goods (foods) and these goods go under the name "consumer goods" in Eng.
So? Is "customer" and "client" the same or not?
Annette


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## Brioche

A person who buys goods and/or services is a customer.

Clients are a subset of customers.
They are people who engage *professionals* for advice or services.

For example, lawyers, accountants, stockbrokers and the like have _clients_.

Joan's Mowing Service, Jim's Ironing Service and Gabby's Beauty Parlour have _customers_.

A person buying goods only, or non-professional services would normally be called a customer.

I would normally talk about the '_guests_' in a hotel, rather than customer or clients. 
Perhaps the better class of whorehouse would too.
Ordinary street-walkers refer to their customers as "johns".

I suppose you could say  "The Bloggs Corporation is a good customer of the Regal Hotel", but then we are not talking about people.


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## annettehola

Yeah, NOW it's beginning to make sense.
Thank you, Brioche.
Esp. that about lawyers, brokers and them having "clients." A fine definition and explanation.
Next question: would you call a person who buys software and as a consequence of that has the right to "customer (there it was again! Rascal!) service" a customer or a client?
Annette


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## Brioche

PSIONMAN said:
			
		

> Perhaps I should mention another shade of meaning.
> 
> Clients is used to describe people that receive a service without payment - e.g. some who receives benefits from a Social Services Dept. might be described as a client, but not a customer
> 
> Clients is also more genteel than customer - Walmart has customers, Harrods has clients


 
In the past, the people who depneded on  Social Security in Australia were called "pensioners" if they got a pension, or "beneficiaries" if they got a benefit.

A few years ago, they decided to call the Social Security Delivery Agency "Centrelink", and decreed that the recipients of the government's largesse would be called "customers".  
This was supposed to be empowering for them.  
The people on the other side of the counter are called "customer service officers", and Centrelink rabbits on about giving "good customer service".

I think you'll find that Harrod's has customers.


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## Brioche

annettehola said:
			
		

> Yeah, NOW it's beginning to make sense.
> Thank you, Brioche.
> Esp. that about lawyers, brokers and them having "clients." A fine definition and explanation.
> Next question: would you call a person who buys software and as a consequence of that has the right to "customer (there it was again! Rascal!) service" a customer or a client?
> Annette


 
A really large software company producing "tailor-made" solutions for big corporations might talk about its 'clients'.

I'd call the run-of-the mill purchaser of off-the-shelf software a "customer".


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## foxfirebrand

Here's an earlier thread with exactly the same topic-- and title:

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=41002&highlight=client

It might add something to the discussion.


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## annettehola

Just this: my definition cannot be totally correct, I agree with that. And yet there is no such thing as "Client Service." Sit on it. Is it because the client has already bought a service and so needs no more service? Is it because the customer bought a tangible product that could break or break down and so would need service? 
Client is more posh than customer, I think so; too. Full of prestige for those that obtain that by paying for it.
Annette


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## atlasan

"Client" certainly implies a more person-to-person, involved relationship than the more general "customer".

Customers buy bread and cheese. Clients seek tax advice and investment counselling!


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## annettehola

Yes, all it really is when it comes down to it is verbal snobbery.
"Purchase" for "buy".
"Seek" for "look for".
"Counselling" for "advice".
"Client" for "customer".

It's worthless.

Annette


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## atlasan

It's not worthless to make distinctions, is it? 

Annettehole, have you been reading Orwell's Newspeak dictionary? It's said to be double plus good because it really roots out verbal snobbery. In fact, it roots out verbs

Seriously, verbal snobbery is a concept that should apply to the way words are selected for use, by the user....the words themselves are innocent of conceit... mere useful tools for self-effacing, modest souls, like us.


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## annettehola

Oh, yeah? The words sort of invented themselves, did they?
AnnetteholE, I liked that!
Annette
PS: I have never read that dictionary. It sounds profoundly real and funny, though. As for me, I just spoke my mind.
By the way: I think it IS useless to make distinctions. What the heck are they good for? Do you really feel more imPORtant being addressed (that's another example) client than being called (that's the counter-example) customer?
Personally I don't God gives a fiddlers flying fart for whether his worshippers call him that or the Lord or whatever along that line.
I want to say: A thing is a thing. Look at it, see what it does, and say what it is.
Annette


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## GenJen54

> Originally posted by *annettehola*
> And yet there is no such thing as "Client Service."


 
I agree with this in theory (semantically), but practically speaking, "Client Services" do exist and are apart of service industry vernacular. 

I have been in the service industry for several years.  Even though a client originally "buys into" the service my company is "selling," we still provide continued services to them.  They are called "Client Services."


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## atlasan

Hi GenJen54!

I think there is a 'upscale shift' in being a client, as opposed to a (mere!) customer, at least in the perception of most people. Along these lines, wouldn't it be likely for a business to 'flatter' customers by anointing them as 'clients"?  
The fact that an organization deems itself to be serving 'clients' instead of 'customers' does not therefore compel Engligh to agree with the imposed usage --or rather, the usage (of 'client) claimed by those applying it.

I hope my fast-food operator in town doesn't refer to me as one of his "clients" the next time I stop there for a cup of coffee! (If he did, I'd expect the coffee to be about 15 cents more expensive than preciously).

Thanks for the observation,
Atlasan


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## GenJen54

> I think there is a 'upscale shift' in being a client, as opposed to a (mere!) customer, at least in the perception of most people.


 
I don't disagree.  My previous experience was with a law firm (definitely _client_-oriented) and my current role is in development and fundraising for a performing arts venue.  Our "donors" are our clients because they receive "services" (benefits) from us in return for their donations.  In our literature, we refer to this as "donor services."

In theory, they are all "customers," but the agreed-upon and accepted semantic, as previously noted, is "client."  That doens't mean the rest of English has to agree, but certainly means that it is what is mutually acceptable between the "clients" themselves and the organization providing the service.


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## atlasan

That "mutuality" is hollow though, don't you think? As the provider of the service, I'll be glad to refer to you as "O! Radiant Star of the North!" (both on the phone and in all correspondance....as long as you sign the check!

My heavy-handed point is that I think that where intentional action by any group (or even governement) is involved in the application of a term, that term has artificial life which will disappear as soon as the effort to perpetuate it is removed.

Say what we will, but it is the masses who write all living languages, do you agree?


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## foxfirebrand

Some businesses value customers more than other, and some individual business owners feel downright emotional about them.  They're a businessman's life blood.

Since "customers" is what just anybody calls the people they deal or cater to, there are some businesses that use the more honorific "client" out of a genuine feeling toward those people.

In other words it's not all done out of cynicism.  I wouldn't argue with someone who wanted to force the point that semantic upshifting isn't "real" or that euphemism and flattery are terrible things, but there's the school of thought that values civility too.  Let's say a shop owner comes up to you as your package is being wrapped and bagged, asks how you're doing, acts genuinely glad to hear your daughter has stopped partying so much and is getting good grades now, and shakes your hand goodbye and says, "you are my valued customer."  Is he "elevating" the simple right-as-rain word, and therefore to be branded as a phony?

Language that conveys gratitude and affection will promote loyalty in customers.  Most of us can tell if there's an inkling of genuine appreciation in it.
.


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## panjandrum

Let's not get carried away in a euphoric condemnation of all those who have clients, not customers.  There may well be contexts in which the choice of word is determined by cynicism.  But that is not always the case.
Take, for example, the social services example quoted by Psionman a lifetime ago (alternatively, about 15 posts up this thread).

Social workers, and other care professionals, do not consider that they have customers.  Those receiving care do not consider themselves to be customers.  It's easy for doctors and nurses, they have patients.  At some point through the spectrum of health and social care the word patient is no longer valid.  For these care professionals, the people they care for are clients.


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## atlasan

Let's say a shop owner comes up to you as your package is being wrapped and bagged, asks how you're doing, acts genuinely glad to hear your daughter has stopped partying so much and is getting good grades now, and shakes your hand goodbye and says, "you are my valued customer." Is he "elevating" the simple right-as-rain word, and therefore to be branded as a phony?

I would like to meet such a shop keeper. When I consider the felonious snarls we are treated to routinely by resentful clerks here in the US, i can only wonder at the person you posit.


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## atlasan

Dear Foxfirebrand,
In all sincere honesty may I ask if you believe that the shop-keeper is actually ---really---interested in something other than the profits you represent?  I fear his "sincere" joy, etc., at seeing someone in his store is  intensified and reinforeced each time the cash register prints a reciept.

Not cynical, sadly realistic!


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## GenJen54

> I fear his "sincere" joy, etc., at seeing someone in his store is intensified and reinforeced each time the cash register prints a reciept.  Not cynical, sadly realistic!


 
Perhaps from where you come from, but certainly not in my part of the US, nor in my industry. 

When a non-profit organization that provides services not only for its "clients," but other organizations, as well, receives a donation that helps it fulfill its mission, then yes, we are truly grateful for that donation. 

There is no cynicism there, but simple heart-felt thanks for monies given and an opportunity for my organization to continue working to enhance our community via cultural education programs. 

As for Foxfire's example, do you not think it possible that someone - a small shop owner or business owner - cannot feel a genuine gratitude towards his patrons?  These people may be providing money that fills his and/or her pocket, yes, but if he is proud of what he owns, can he/she not be sincerely grateful towards those who chose to shop at his business?

I cannot tell what part of the country you are from, but from where I hail, deals can still be "done on a handshake," and gratitude, whether expressed towards a client or customer, is honest and sincere.  That's what keeps me going back to the local shops as opposed to the larger corporate chains.


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## nycphotography

atlasan said:
			
		

> Customers buy bread and cheese. Clients seek tax advice and investment counselling!


 
And _Marketers_ try to convince customers that they are clients (when in reality they are lucky to be even treated as humans).


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## nycphotography

atlasan said:
			
		

> Say what we will, but it is the masses who write all living languages, do you agree?


 
I think that may have been true more or less, right up until gutenberg and the birth of printed mass market made literature more accessible to the masses.  Then the writers of the living languages, slowly, started to become the writers.

And now, in the media age, you have many camps who contribute to the language.

1) The masses - they still create by speaking, and repeating what they hear.

2) marketers, corporations, politicians, and anyone else who wants to advance some sort of agenda - they twist, warp, and pervert the language to suit their purposes, and in the process, alter it for everyone.

3) the writers (of mass market media) - they create the language that is consumed by millions.  Whether they invent it, or acquire it and put it on blast, they are I suspect the most powerful force in changing language.

4) Finally, lets not leave out the massive impact that the communists had on Mandarin Chinese.


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## bartonig

I feel that client and customer are truly synonyms. Their meanings are one and the same. However, they may have different connotations in some registers (and no difference in other registers).


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## daviesri

They are pretty much the same thing.  In the world of profesional businesses, the word client is prefered.  In corporate business if someone buys something from you they are a client.  In general retail where goods are sold to the public (grocery store, chain retail store, ....), most call those customers.  The general rule is:

You can call a customer either a customer or a client and they will not care.

If you call a client a customer they may be offended so it is best to call them a client.


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## foxfirebrand

atlasan said:
			
		

> _"Let's say a shop *owner* comes up to you..."_
> 
> I would like to meet such a shop *keeper*. When I consider the felonious snarls we are treated to routinely by *resentful clerks* here in the US, i can only wonder at the person you posit.


You can do more than "wonder at the person I posit."  First, get a clearer notion of who I'm talking about.  Then find that person's business.  With your concern for money, I have to assume you're still doing battle with "outlets" like WalMart and BestBuy and CircuitCity and the like.  Places you know about because of mass-market advertising.

Try sizing down a little.  Find a different business zone than the one the mega-mall complexes are located in, and find the kind of place that is run with proprietary interest-- an an attitude that values customers.

You sound like you're trying to argue me out of believing that they even exist.  Problem is, I've know lots of them over the years-- I'm going to prove a little stubborn about denying they exist.  Same with the sincerity-- they value customers because they have the kind who seek them out.  It takes some effort, something beyond simply letting oneself be led by TV advertising, which of course small businesses can't afford.  If more consumers looked for alternatives, and stopped patronizing the mass-market outlets who hire minimum-wage employees to move customers along the aisles and out the door, with an unfriendly "snarl"-- the situation would improve and your "realism" might deteriorate a little.
.


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## Brioche

bartonig said:
			
		

> I feel that client and customer are truly synonyms. Their meanings are one and the same. However, they may have different connotations in some registers (and no difference in other registers).


 
If you muck up those registers, it may have a large effect on your cash register.


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## annettehola

No, I don't. It's the "masses" that use the languages and so make them live (because they are part of their lived lives), but terms like fx. "client" are not written by the "masses," nor are they used by them in normal living speech among people. Why? Because such terms are examples of language that has DIED. Such terms are exactly "terms," not words. They have been created by economical interests. (uh, man, they are going to call me a leftover from the Marxist seventies now. Well, let them.)
  All people in the entire world have their own opinion on this and everything else, and they have a right to air it. True. And that way we built the Tower of Babel. Maybe it was time to write a little graffiti at its holy base; though? Something like Tower of Bla-bla? (uh, now they are going to call me an elitist and an anarchist. Well, let them. I know I don't belong to any -ism.)
Annette


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## panjandrum

annettehola said:
			
		

> [...] It's the "masses" that use the languages and so make them live (because they are part of their lived lives), but terms like fx. "client" are not written by the "masses," nor are they used by them in normal living speech among people.[...]


That may well be true in your world. In mine, *client* is used as a matter of routine - in normal everyday living speech - by thousands of very straightforward, genuine, caring people.
They use *client* from choice, and because it includes, for them, a sense of commitment and engagement between them and their ... their *clients*


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## annettehola

That may well be true in your world.
Annette


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## bartonig

Brioche said:
			
		

> If you muck up those registers, it may have a large effect on your cash register.



A nice play on _register_.


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