# Overuse of the reflexive



## Perico Nuevo

As a fairly recent student of Spanish (I have been working on it for the last odd year), I find myself fairly competent with reading, writing, and listening. However, when speaking the language, I encounter many problems, one of which being the tendency to overuse the reflexive (Me jugaba... te quieres, etc.) Does anyone on this forum have advice for overcoming this or any issues that come with speaking a language?
I realize that practice makes perfect, but where I live there are very few Spanish speakers. 
Gracias de antemano!


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## Basenjigirl

First you need to figure out why you are doing this because your examples are not word-for-word translations from English. Usually when someone makes a frequent error when speaking a second language it is because they are carrying over a standard pattern from their native language. For example, many English speakers say "la gente son" instead of "la gente es" because in English we say "People are" whereas in Spanish it is "People is." 

 Are you teaching yourself Spanish (via books and tapes) or do you have an instructor who is stressing the use of reflexive verbs? It could be that you learned one grammar point (me lavo la cara, me despierto, etc.) and you have unwittingly trained your mind to think that all Spanish verbs need to be reflexive.


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## lazarus1907

Are you sure that all those cases you're talking about are real abuses of the reflexive pronoun? Can you give us a few examples to comment on?


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## stooge1970

The reflexive confuses me too because very often native speakers use it to give emphasis to what they say even if the verb is not necessarily reflexive. For example, "Me he comido 3 bocadillos" is perfectly normal to emphasize that eating 3 sandwiches is a lot, even though "comer" is not generally a reflexive verb. But I know I've tried to use it for emphasis in certain situations and been told that I'm wrong.

Generally speaking though, the reflexive is equivalent to the english "-self" such as "myself", "yourself", "itself". But often we don't use the "-self" ending where spanish uses "se". For example: "El vaso se rompió" =  The glass broke (itself). The "se" is imperative even though in English we will generally say "the glass broke", because it's really breaking itself.

I hope this helps a bit...


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## Perico Nuevo

It's actually stupid stuff ("me jugaba con mis amigos", "¿qué te quieres?" etc..) I'm taking Spanish in school and apparently it's a common problem in my class. I can't really explain why I would have a tendency to do this, but I'm fairly sure its mainly a lack of practice. I guess I just find it puzzling that one can be fairly competent in writing the language and yet have such a difficult time speaking it.
I guess this is where a term-abroad would come in handy


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## Dudu678

Yes, I think it's lack of practice. That's totally uncommon. I'll say more, it's incorrect. 

But hey, keep working.


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## muycuriosa

Might it be because you 'miss' the subject and replace it by a reflexive pronoun? 
I mean: instead of saying 'you love / want'  = 'tú quieres' you say 'te quieres'? (Of course, you know that in general one doesn't use the subject pronouns, so you don't use 'tú'!) 

I know that sounds a bit stupid but as the others have already said there doesn't seem to be a logical explanation.


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## Perico Nuevo

Haha... there definitely isn't a logical explanation. Gracias por todas las respuestas!


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## Magmod

stooge1970 said:


> For example, "Me he comido 3 bocadillos" is perfectly normal to emphasize that eating 3 sandwiches is a lot, even though "comer" is not generally a reflexive verb. But I know I've tried to use it for emphasis in certain situations and been told that I'm wrong.


 La traducción en inglés es así:

I have eaten *up* 3 sandwiches
También es muy difícil explicar por qué *up* y no *down* por ejemplo


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## stooge1970

Magmod said:


> La traducción en inglés es así:
> I have eaten *up* 3 sandwiches
> También es muy difícil explicar por qué *up* y no *down* por ejemplo
> 
> Esto me suena bastante raro. Yo diría “I’ve eaten three whole sandwiches”. Solamente se suele usar “up” con comida en la frase hecha “Eat up!”, por lo menos, donde vivo yo.


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## mazbook

muycuriosa said:


> Might it be because you 'miss' the subject and replace it by a reflexive pronoun?
> I mean: instead of saying 'you love / want'  = 'tú quieres' you say 'te quieres'? (Of course, you know that in general one doesn't use the subject pronouns, so you don't use 'tú'!)
> 
> I know that sounds a bit stupid but as the others have already said there doesn't seem to be a logical explanation.


Creo este es la explicación más correcta.  Tengo este problema también y cierto esta es la causa.

Saludos desde Mazatlán


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## Argónida

muycuriosa said:


> Might it be because you 'miss' the subject and replace it by a reflexive pronoun?
> I mean: instead of saying 'you love / want' = 'tú quieres' you say 'te quieres'?   (Of course, you know that in general one doesn't use the subject pronouns, so you don't use 'tú'!)


 
¿Tú quieres (algo)? = Do you want something?
¿Te quieres? =  Do you love yourself?

Efectivamente, el sujeto suele no aparecer, pero no se sustituye por ningún pronombre. La frase quedaría simplemente así: "¿Quieres algo?"


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## Magmod

stooge1970 said:


> Esto me suena bastante raro. Yo diría “I’ve eaten three whole sandwiches”. Solamente se suele usar “up” con comida en la frase hecha “Eat up!”, por lo menos, donde vivo yo.


 
*Comerse *significa to eat (up) y tiene nada que ver con whole como has dicho.

Del diccionario Collins, 3rd Ed.

sólo me he comido un bocadillo = I only had a sándwich
Se lo comió todo = he ate it all up.
Saludos


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## San

Comer and comerse can both work as transitive verbs, but they often take two different kinds of direct object. In the case of comer the DO is the type of meal you eat while in the case of comerse it is the amount of food you eat or the specific and definite food you eat.

Sometimes you can use both, with the pronominal form _comerse_ being more colloquial, but perhaps it is more instructive to see what you cannot. For example:

_ ¿Quén se ha comido el pollo que tenía en la nevera?_
_ ¿Quién ha comido el pollo que tenía en la nevera?_

_ Vamos a comer paella 
Vamos a comernos paella 
Vamos a comernos la paella 

Comer_ can replace verbs such as cenar o almorzar (_Hemos almorzado gazpacho/Hemos comido gazpacho_), _comerse_ cannot. In the same way you use _comer_ as a replacement of _probar_: Nunca he comido paella = Nunca he probado la paella = I've never tried paella), but _Nunca me he comido paella_, you must say _Nunca me he comido una paella, _although it sounds worse than the other phrase.


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## Magmod

San said:


> Comer and comerse can both work as transitive verbs, but they often take two different kinds of direct object. In the case of comer the DO is the type of meal you eat while in the case of comerse it is the amount of food you eat or the specific and definite food you eat.
> 
> Sometimes you can use both, with the pronominal form _comerse_ being more colloquial, but perhaps it is more instructive to see what you cannot. For example:
> 
> _¿Quén se ha comido el pollo que tenía en* la* nevera?_
> _¿Quién ha comido el pollo que tenía en la nevera?_
> 
> _Vamos a comer paella _
> _Vamos a comernos paella _
> _Vamos a comernos* la* paella _
> 
> _Comer_ can replace verbs such as cenar o almorzar (_Hemos almorzado gazpacho/Hemos comido gazpacho_), _comerse_ cannot. In the same way you use _comer_ as a replacement of _probar_: Nunca he comido paella = Nunca he probado la paella = I've never tried paella), but _Nunca me he comido paella_, you must say _Nunca me he comido* una* paella, _although it sounds worse than the other phrase.


 
You’ve answered very well San 

 Being reflexive, *comerse* must be transitive.

The original question Post#1 was the overuse of the reflexive. You have said *comerse* is used more colloquially than comer. 

 You have not explained the reasons using the reflexivity of comerse. 

For example:

why do we need *la* *y una* with the reflexive verb but not in the non-reflexive? 
Is this a general rule? 
Saludos


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## San

Magmod said:


> You’ve answered very well San
> 
> Being reflexive, *comerse* must be transitive.
> 
> The original question Post#1 was the overuse of the reflexive. You have said *comerse* is used more colloquially than comer.
> 
> You have not explained the reasons using the reflexivity of comerse.
> 
> For example:
> why do we need *la* *y una* with the reflexive verb but not in the non-reflexive?
> Is this a general rule?
> Saludos



First of all, comerse in _Me comí un bocata_ is not reflexive, it is pronominal. I saw how spanish learners like you insist once and again on calling such structure reflexive, but that's wrong.

Then, as I said before, comerse seems to need a direct object which referers to the whole amount of food you eat, a definite amount. So you can't say _Me comí paella_, you've got to say how much paella you ate: _Me comí la mitad de la paella/casi toda la paella/ la paella entera/una paella (entera)/la paella (entera, o un plato entero). _Perphaps this doesn't _answer_ why, but I can provide further explanations.


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## stooge1970

Magmod said:


> *Comerse *significa to eat (up) y tiene nada que ver con whole como has dicho.
> 
> Del diccionario Collins, 3rd Ed.
> sólo me he comido un bocadillo = I only had a sándwich
> Se lo comió todo = he ate it all up.
> Saludos



 Sólo estaba diciendo que para dar énfasis, decir “eaten up” me suena un poco raro. Prefiero aún el empleo de “whole”. Sin embargo, según San, “comerse” no sólo quiere dar énfasis a la cantidad de comida, y por eso supongo que las frases no son iguales.


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## stooge1970

San said:


> First of all, comerse in _Me comí un bocata_ is not reflexive, it is pronominal. I saw how spanish learners like you insist once and again on calling such structure reflexive, but that's wrong.
> 
> Then, as I said before, comerse seems to need a direct object which referers to the whole amount of food you eat, a definite amount. So you can't say _Me comí paella_, you've got to say how much paella you ate: _Me comí la mitad de la paella/casi toda la paella/ la paella entera/una paella (entera)/la paella (entera, o un plato entero). _Perphaps this doesn't _answer_ why, but I can provide further explanations.



Could you possibly explain when it is imperative that we use "comerse" and not "comer"? For example, why is it incorrect to say:

_"¿Quién ha comido el pollo que tenía en la nevera?"_


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## lazarus1907

Magmod said:


> why do we need *la* *y una* with the reflexive verb but not in the non-reflexive?
> Is this a general rule?


With verbs used as transitive ones, like _comer, beber, estudiar, saber, pensar, andar_..., which remain transitive after having added the reflexive pronoun, this pronoun emphasizes the totality of the action indicated by the verb.

These verbs indicate a plain transitive action, but when this pronoun is added, this action is stressed, and directed towards the subject so that they are both intimately related in a way. Thus, if the object is not specific (e.g. me comí arroz), this relationship makes no sense. You have to determine or quantify the direct object: Me comí el arroz / una manzana / mi ración...


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## david13

San said:


> First of all, comerse in _Me comí un bocata_ is not reflexive, it is pronominal. I saw how spanish learners like you insist once and again on calling such structure reflexive, but that's wrong.



This is an excellent point. There is an excellent thread on pronominal verbs,  which I find confusing as well. Hey, I grew up saying "I washed my face" and not "i washed myself the face".  Reflexive verbs are extremely rare in English. And just when you think you understand the concept you discover verbs that look like reflexives (I called them "reflexivos falsos" before I knew the term pronominal) but really are not.   

But, it's emininently learnable and that's why we're here!  Have I thanked everyone lately for all the great support I find here?  If not, consider this a big thank you to all!

_*David*_


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## david13

litt96 said:


> As a fairly recent student of Spanish (I have been working on it for the last odd year), I find myself fairly competent with reading, writing, and listening. However, when speaking the language, I encounter many problems, one of which being the tendency to overuse the reflexive (Me jugaba... te quieres, etc.) Does anyone on this forum have advice for overcoming this or any issues that come with speaking a language?
> I realize that practice makes perfect, but where I live there are very few Spanish speakers.
> Gracias de antemano!



One possible reason for the "overuse" of any feature of a language is the tendency to overlearn those aspects which are the most foreign to our ear. For all intents and purposes, English has no reflexive. So we work really hard to master it and think it's necessary when it is not. We do the same with the subjunctive, which for awhile I tended to use in every subordinate clause!

Just a thought...


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## San

stooge1970 said:


> Could you possibly explain when it is imperative that we use "comerse" and not "comer"? For example, why is it incorrect to say:
> 
> _"¿Quién ha comido el pollo que tenía en la nevera?"_



That's a good question, because it is often said that comer can also be used as pronominal, no that it *must* be used as pronominal sometimes. Sorry I haven't got the answer, so wait for other replies, but I can tell you that everyone doubtless will say _¿Quién *se* ha comido el pollo que tenía en la nevera?_


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## lazarus1907

stooge1970 said:


> Could you possibly explain when it is imperative that we use "comerse" and not "comer"? For example, why is it incorrect to say:
> 
> _"¿Quién ha comido el pollo que tenía en la nevera?"_


It is hard to say whether omitting the pronoun in certain cases is incorrect, but it is certainly rare and it sounds strange to any native.

  Some transitive verbs express an action that can reach a limit (e.g. finish eating sth), and they also offer the possibility of expressing whether this limit has been reached or not. Thus, in this sentences:

_Ya comí._
_Ayer comí bien._
_Hoy he comido arroz._
_Como__ carne siempre que puedo._

  no information is given about the amount eaten, or whether the meal was consumed completely. They all just mean “eat”, with no limitations, and it is common with non delimited habitual events. The pronoun is omitted in the great majority of the cases; it is not even used in written literature.

_Ya comí todo.__ _
_Hoy he comido el arroz.__ _
_Como la carne siempre que puedo. _

Never read any grammar saying that it is wrong. They just say that it is not used.

  However, if you are interested in delimit the event, specifying what exactly was eaten (completely), you do this by using the pronoun. Therefore, there must be something very specific to refer to:

_Ya comí  _(eat yourself?)
  Ayer me comí bien_ _ (what?)
_Hoy me he comido arroz__ _ (how much?)
_Como__ me carne siempre que puedo__ _(what meat?)

  In order to use the pronoun, there must be a specific object to eat, and you  must use articles, quantifiers, numerals,… or something that indicates clearly the limits of what you eat.

_Ya me comí todo._
_Hoy me he comido el arroz._
_Me como la carne (que cocinan) siempre que puedo._


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## Magmod

San said:


> First of all, comerse in _Me comí un bocata_ is not reflexive, it is pronominal. I saw how spanish learners like you insist once and again on calling such structure reflexive, but that's wrong.
> 
> Then, as I said before, comerse seems to need a direct object which referers to the whole amount of food you eat, a definite amount. So you can't say _Me comí paella_, you've got to say how much paella you ate: _Me comí la mitad de la paella/casi toda la paella/ la paella entera/una paella (entera)/la paella (entera, o un plato entero). _Perphaps this doesn't _answer_ why, but I can provide further explanations.


 
** Claro, pero! La culpa no es mía! 
En el diccionario WR se pone:


*►**comerse* _verbo reflexivo_ 
*1* to eat: *cómete todo el puré,* eat up your purée 
Reflexive is just one of the meanings that a pronominal verb can have. In our discussion, since the object pronoun is of the same person as the verb’s subject then *comerse* is reflexive.

Please feel free to give more explanations.


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## San

Magmod said:


> ** Claro, pero! La culpa no es mía!
> En el diccionario WR se pone:
> *►**comerse* _verbo reflexivo_
> *1* to eat: *cómete todo el puré,* eat up your purée
> Reflexive is just one of the meanings that a pronominal verb can have. In our discussion, since the object pronoun is of the same person as the verb’s subject then *comerse* is reflexive.
> 
> Please feel free to give more explanations.



Until I know a verb works as reflexive when the subject and the direct objet are the same. With comer that will never be possible, at the most you can eat a piece of yourself as in _Estaba tan nervioso que me comía las uñas_, but me and my nails are two different things  That what logic tells me, but I'm not a grammar expert.


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## lazarus1907

San:

A reflexive verb, both in English and Spanish, are verbs that are constructed with the reflexive pronoun, so "comerse" is reflexive in a way. The problem with this terminology, is that "reflexive" also means "to oneself/itself", and in this case the action is not reflexive even if the verb is called that. As long as they keep using that term, we'll keep answering the question "Why reflexive, if you are not eating yourself? It would be a lot easier if they differenciated between all kind of *SE*'s, because in this case this "se" is a dative, not a direct or indirect object, like in "lavarse".


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## San

lazarus1907 said:


> San:
> 
> A reflexive verb, both in English and Spanish, are verbs that are constructed with the reflexive pronoun, so "comerse" is reflexive in a way. The problem with this terminology, is that "reflexive" also means "to oneself/itself", and in this case the action is not reflexive even if the verb is called that. As long as they keep using that term, we'll keep answering the question "Why reflexive, if you are not eating yourself? It would be a lot easier if they differenciated between all kind of *SE*'s, because in this case this "se" is a dative, not a direct or indirect object, like in "lavarse".



Ya veo, no tenía ni idea, pero el DRAE no habla para nada de verbos reflexivos, habla de verbos que pueden tener un uso transitivo o intransitivo, y eventualmente, pronominal.

El que un verbo transitivo pueda ser reflexivo en sentido matemático supongo que depende sólo del significado del verbo.  Pero es un poco chocante ver que "caerse" es un verbo reflexivo, cuando caerse es en casi todas sus acepciones intransitivo. Es una terminología un pomo confusa, sí. Además veo que el DRAE no recoge en abosuto el sentido matemático o lógico del adjetivo reflexivo,  así es que ya estoy perdido del todo.


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## Perico Nuevo

david13 said:


> One possible reason for the "overuse" of any feature of a language is the tendency to overlearn those aspects which are the most foreign to our ear. For all intents and purposes, English has no reflexive. So we work really hard to master it and think it's necessary when it is not. We do the same with the subjunctive, which for awhile I tended to use in every subordinate clause!
> 
> Just a thought...



Yeah I totally agree with this. Overuse of subjunctive is something I've noticed among Spanish students.. something (I think) I've avoided thus far.


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## Magmod

litt96 said:


> Yeah I totally agree with this. Overuse of subjunctive is something I've noticed among Spanish students.. something (I think) I've avoided thus far.


 
  Claro, pero ¿dónde están vuestros ejemplos David y Litt para corroborar vuestros pensamientos?
 
Saludos


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## david13

Magmod said:


> Claro, pero ¿dónde están vuestros ejemplos David y Litt para corroborar vuestros pensamientos?
> 
> Saludos



¿Ejemplos? Cometo tantos errores que no puedo contarlos. _O se debe decir "...que no pueda contarlos..." o "que he perdido el hilo..." _En serio, hay un artículo erdito que trata este asunto a fondo pero no puedo acceder al archivo: Smith, Karen L., _*Avoidance, Overuse, and Misuse: Three Trial and Error Learning Strategies of Second Language Learners*_ 
_Hispania_,        Vol. 65,        No. 4 (Dec., 1982),                     pp. 605-609.

Baste con decir que sé las areas en que (_¿en las que?_) me equivoco con frecuencia.   Saludos.


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## stooge1970

lazarus1907 said:


> With verbs used as transitive ones, like _comer, beber, estudiar, saber, pensar, andar_..., which remain transitive after having added the reflexive pronoun, this pronoun emphasizes the totality of the action indicated by the verb.
> 
> These verbs indicate a plain transitive action, but when this pronoun is added, this action is stressed, and directed towards the subject so that they are both intimately related in a way. Thus, if the object is not specific (e.g. me comí arroz), this relationship makes no sense. You have to determine or quantify the direct object: Me comí el arroz / una manzana / mi ración...



 Entonces, ¿tendría que decir “Me he comprado dos billetes” en vez de “He comprado dos billetes”?


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## Magmod

stooge1970 said:


> Entonces, ¿tendría que decir “Me he comprado dos billetes” en vez de “He comprado dos billetes”?


I find difficulty understanding what Lazarus has said because I am not a native speaker. What's yours? 

I think* h*e means examples like:

Piénsalo
Think about it
Piénsatelo 
Think about it ( completely )
Tóma(te) un somnífero
(se ) lo ha tagado.
¿(Te ) sabes los verbos irreulares?
Anyway I let Lazarus aswer.


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## on a rose

Creo que una mejor traducción para "comerse", en vez de "to eat up", sería "to finish/polish off". 

"We polished off the pie." 
"We polished off pie." 

"To eat up", aunque también es correcto, suena un poco necio, como un frase que se usaría con un niño ("Did you like your ice cream? Did you eat it all up?").


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## Barbara S.

Reflexive verbs are often translated as "get" in English.

Lavarse - to get washed
cansarse - to get tired
embarrazarse - to get pregnant
levantarse - to get up
bañarse - to take a bath

Sometimes as has been noted above it's to emphasize an action.

me murió - he died (as in he dropped dead) El gato se murió. Si no me muero antes..
murió - he died (no surprize) Murieron muchos soldados en la guerra.


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## cthulhufhtagn

In reference to the first post:

"¿Te quieres creer que se me ha olvidado?" == ("¿Quieres creer que se me ha olvidado?") == Can you believe I forgot it?
"Me jugaba mis cuartos a que no es capaz de hacerlo". == "If I had to, I would bet he is not able to do it."


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## Perico Nuevo

Para que así conste, este problema aclaró con más practica en el lenguaje hablado. Gracias a todos por vuestra ayuda.


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