# remare contro



## scarreth

*C*ome tradurre "qui c'è qualcuno che rema contro"?


----------



## furs

_Letteralmente remare contro = to backstroke._
_Nel senso figurato onestamente non ho idea. Mi sa che bisognera' parafrasare, perche' l'inglese e' molto piu' concreto e meno immaginifco dell'italiano (soprattutto nel linguaggio politico a cui credo tu ti riferisca)._


----------



## Paulfromitaly

furs said:


> _Letteralmente remare contro = to backstroke._
> _Nel senso figurato onestamente non ho idea. Mi sa che bisognera' parafrasare, perche' l'inglese e' molto piu' concreto e meno immaginifco dell'italiano (soprattutto nel linguaggio politico a cui credo tu ti riferisca)._


Concordo.
Io userei _to interfere_.


----------



## GavinW

furs said:


> _(soprattutto nel linguaggio politico a cui credo tu ti riferisca)._


 
Yes, exactly: it's an idiom used especially in the sphere of politics and political journalism. The image in Italian is that somebody or some people are rowing in the opposite direction to the direction of motion of the others who are in the same boat as them. So the idea in English is that somebody is not collaborating with the efforts of the others in their group, or on their side. 

One might perhaps say that they are "not toeing the line" (not following instructions or the official stance), although clearly that's only a special case of "remare contro". Still, you get the idea. And the exact term or phrase in English is likely to depend on the exact context. They might even start singing from a different hymn-sheet! ;-)


----------



## furs

Gavin, you gave me a great tip: how about "someone is not singing from the same sheet of music"?


----------



## Cavaturaccioli

As in 'mi piacerebbe tanto, ma la geografia mi rema in contro, ahime`'


----------



## giovannino

furs said:


> _Letteralmente remare contro = to backstroke._
> _Nel senso figurato onestamente non ho idea. Mi sa che bisognera' parafrasare, perche' l'inglese e' molto piu' concreto e meno immaginifco dell'italiano (soprattutto nel linguaggio politico a cui credo tu ti riferisca)._


 
And yet I've found a few examples of "rowing against somebody" being used exactly as "remare contro" is in Italian, in a political context:

_Great things will happen quickly if the Republicans will just get on board rather than rowing against us_

_The governor and lawmakers will have to work together, he said. __“I want to make sure we’re all rowing in the same direction and nobody is rowing against us,” Peterson said._


----------



## Paulfromitaly

I think that "to throw a spanner in the works" is good too.


----------



## byrne

Paulfromitaly said:


> I think that "to throw a spanner in the works" is good too.



I really like that Paul..


I was toying with "_go against the tide" _but that has positive overtones which "_remare contro_" doesn't usually..


----------



## CPA

I think "remare contro" is a little more subtle and Machiavellian that "throw a spanner in the works", although the end result is probably the same.


----------



## byrne

CPA said:


> I think "remare contro" is a little more subtle and Macchiavellian that "throw a spanner in the works", although the end result is probably the same.



Ciao CPA,
agreed, _remare _really perhaps means _tramare_ which gives us _plotting_ but is there a subtle Macchiavellian way of conveying it in English?

I've had a flash which might (or not) help.... fresh from a visit to Ireland, I just thought of the term "to banjax" here , so maybe something along the lines of _to sabotage_?? Or is it too strong?

p.s. sorry (not terribly) but another francesismo...


----------



## CPA

I rather like "rowing against us", for want of anything better. It's nice and vague.


----------



## GavinW

CPA said:


> I rather like "rowing against us", for want of anything better. It's nice and vague.



Yes, but it's not fixed in English, and the meaning is not immediately clear. In fact, I doubt if the meaning is very clear even in the long term!


----------



## Teerex51

How about borrowing the journalese expression: _to push back (on, against)? _


----------



## giovannino

I, too, like "throw a spanner in the works". However, not only do I agree with CPA that 


> "remare contro" is a little more subtle and Machiavellian that "throw a spanner in the works"


but I would argue that it fails to convey the full meaning of the original phrase. From The Free Dictionary:


> *remare contro *ostacolare o contrastare dall'interno



I may be wrong but I think that in English someone who "throws a spanner in the works" is not necessarily someone doing that "dall'interno".
Also, to me "remare contro" suggests a repetitive pattern of behaviour whereas the "spanner" phrase seems to me to be used for single instances.
Of course, if I say "there is someone in the party who keeps throwing a spanner in the works" my objections don't apply anymore.


----------



## GavinW

giovannino said:


> ... anymore.



Aargh! Giovannino, not you too! OK, it's a lost battle, "any more" can now officially be written "anymore". ;-) (It's been official for years at least in AE, it seems).

Back to the thread: "spanner in the works" was obviously inappropriate right from the start (pace Paul et al). "Internal sniping" is better. But we're still not there yet, I feel. To make progress, we would need some actual examples of usage in Italian, so people can see for themselves the problems and specific issues that exist in trying to translate this idiom (or, perhaps better, this "cliché").


----------



## lumage

GavinW said:


> Aargh! Giovannino, not you too! OK, it's a lost battle, "any more" can now officially be written "anymore". ;-) (It's been official for years at least in AE, it seems).
> 
> Back to the thread: "spanner in the works" was obviously inappropriate right from the start (pace Paul et al). "Internal sniping" is better. But we're still not there yet, I feel. To make progress, we would need some actual examples of usage in Italian, so people can see for themselves the problems and specific issues that exist in trying to translate this idiom (or, perhaps better, this "cliché").



I have another example that may help (I hope!!). I wish to translate the sentence:

"Stando alle indicazioni raccolte finora sembrerebbe che la soluzione migliore sia l'inizio di un programma di "Supply chain finance", ma i coefficienti "Aij" dei nodi coinvolti remano contro questa ipotesi"

I was going to translate it as "the 'Aij' coefficients of the involved nodes are against this options", but if there is a better translation that is able to carry the meaning, I'll be glad


----------



## CPA

Premesso che non capisco un'h D) della tua frase, lu, direi:

_the "Aij"_ _coefficients of the nodes involved work against this theory._


----------



## lumage

CPA said:


> Premesso che non capisco un'h D) della tua frase, lu, direi:
> 
> _the "Aij"_ _coefficients of the nodes involved work against this theory._


Si immagino sia abbastanza criptica  ma non mi volevo lanciare in spiegazioni tecniche (abbastanza noiose...)

comunque il punto era che volevo rendere l'idea di un qualcosa che è "contro" l'ipotesi iniziale, ma senza un significato così forte come "are against"... comunque "work against" mi suona bene!

grazie


----------



## gettingby

Hello! 
I understand this idiom perfectly, but although WR gives it as "row against" I don't really think that is the corresponding idiom. 
In this headline, 
Bersani: Renzi rema contro, no, anzi..

I can think of the OPPOSITE idiom- not toeing the line. But I can't think of one that fits exactly. It's not swimming against the tide, because it's rather an action in opposition to someone. Help!


----------



## london calling

I can see what you mean, but I think if you said _row against the stream/swimming against the tide_ you'd get the idea across. However, I must say I'd translate it as you suggest, it sounds a whole lot better:

_Bersani: Renzi isn't toeing the line (or is he...)._


----------



## Ceccis

I think that "rowing against" should have a meaning like "superare delle difficoltà contro"... so you should definitely keep it out
Maybe, if you want to use an idiom, "To throw a spanner in the works" or something like that? 
Or you could use a simple verbal forms like giving troubles, straiten, causing problems...


----------



## joanvillafane

I can't think of anything with the "rowing" theme - but I just saw a headline in today's paper here that expresses somewhat the  same idea:

.....breaks with the pack

also seen as: break from the pack

However, I do see a slight difference in meaning.  "Rowing against the tide" sounds more positive.  If Bersani said, "Renzi is rowing against *us*..." it would have a negative connotation (from his point of view, of course.)

Breaking from the pack can also be seen as a positive move (by someone outside the pack)


----------



## Teerex51

gettingby said:


> I can think of the OPPOSITE idiom- not towing the line.



For the record, the idiom goes _"to toe the line" _, the verb being _to to_e, not _to tow _.


----------



## london calling

Teerex51 said:


> For the record, the idiom goes _"to toe the line" _, the verb being _to to_e, not _to tow _.


Stupid woman, of course it is! Will correct, now.


----------



## GavinW

Ceccis said:


> I think that "rowing against" should have a meaning like "superare delle difficoltà contro"... so you should definitely keep it out
> Maybe, if you want to use an idiom, "To throw a spanner in the works" or something like that?



Your suggestion is not half bad. I like "to put spokes in (somebody's) wheel(s)".


----------



## Teerex51

For lack of a better idiom, I'd go with: _Renzi's dragging his feet_ or _won't play along. _​Not quite the same as "remare contro" but pretty close, in my opinion.


----------



## gettingby

All very good! How about "to go against the grain?"


----------



## GavinW

gettingby said:


> How about "to go against the grain?"



No, that means something else.


----------



## Teerex51

gettingby said:


> All very good! How about "to go against the grain?"


I think that'd work. 
This idiom has, in my opinion, two slightly different meanings: (a) to go against the wishes of others/the trend, and (b) to be contrary to one's disposition.


----------



## GavinW

Teerex51 said:


> This idiom has, in my opinion, two slightly different meanings: (a) to go against the wishes of others/the trend, and (b) to be contrary to one's disposition.



Really? You surprise me! Can you find/invent a context to illustrate sense b)? It's completely new to me...


----------



## Teerex51

Hi Gavin, I'll try...



_Having to reprimand co-workers truly goes against my grain_
_To blab on for hours on the cellphone goes against my grain_
_It went against her grain to refuse helping someone_


----------



## sound shift

GavinW said:


> Really? You surprise me! Can you find/invent a context to illustrate sense b)? It's completely new to me...


Personally, I have only ever used it with sense (b). Most of the times I have seen it used with sense (a), the speaker was American.


----------



## elfa

I can see used it both ways. However, I am not at all familiar with "against my/her grain" - in BE, it's usually "to go against *the* grain". Maybe Teerex's version is AmE usage?


----------



## GavinW

Hang on, we're talking at cross purposes (at least me and TR are! Anche se sono grato a TR per la disponibilità). I took TR's post to mean that he confirmed that the Italian idiom in question (remare contro) can be translated by "to go against the grain" (as proposed by gb in post 10, a suggestion which I disputed). There is of course no doubt over the meaning or existence of the English idiom. However, I continue to object that it can never be used to translate "remare contro" (or indeed, vice versa). Tutto qua!

EDIT: So my request for example contexts meant I was interested in seeing usages of "remare contro" which illustrate situations that correspond to the meaning of "to go against the grain".


----------



## elfa

GavinW said:


> However, I continue to object that it can never be used to translate "remare contro" (or indeed, vice versa). Tutto qua!



I'm in agreement with that, Gavin. To me, "to go against the grain" has a different nuance - one of going against a generally accepted trend, not of not towing a specific line.


----------



## Teerex51

GavinW said:


> EDIT: So my request for example contexts meant I was interested in seeing usages of "remare contro" which illustrate situations that correspond to the meaning of "to go against the grain".



Just realized Gavin had been asking for examples...(the best ones use the verb _to work_) 

_He's a mainstream visionary, working against the grain._ [in performing arts]  
_Working against the grain isn’t something new for Sxxx_ [crossing party lines]
_They are working against the grain of government policy _[at odds with public policy]

In the final analysis, the Italian idiom means "azione o atteggiamento di contrasto, di opposizione all’indirizzo seguito (o alle decisioni prese) dalla maggioranza o dagli altri componenti di un gruppo, di un partito"



			
				elfa said:
			
		

> To me, "to go against the grain" has a different nuance - one of going against a generally accepted trend, not of not *towing a specific line*.



I guess you didn't read the memo whole thread. This particular line is *toed*, not *towed*.


----------



## GavinW

Thanks again for your efforts, TR. But, alas, we're still not understanding each other. 
I was calling for example sentences _in Italian_ of the _Italian_ idiom "remare contro". (Subsequently, from this raw material, it should then be easier to confirm, or reject, the possibility of using the _English _idiom "go against the grain" [or indeed any other expression using "grain"] as a translation for any of the given _Italian _example sentences). In other words, you've missed my point about directionality. ;-)


----------



## Teerex51

GavinW said:


> In other words, you've missed my point about directionality. ;-)



Mmmhh, it was so subtle I must have read right past it...

No problemo.

_Smettila di remare contro, siamo tutti nella stessa situazione.
Qui in azienda c'è sempre qualcuno che rema contro.
Quelli che remano contro sono avvertiti!
_


----------



## GavinW

Great! Thanks! My argument remains that none of these can be translated by the idiom "(to) go against the grain"!


----------



## elfa

Teerex51 said:


> I guess you didn't read the memo whole thread. This particular line is *toed*, not *towed*.



According to this, it's both, Teerex.


----------



## Teerex51

And they're wrong. 

This being a learning forum, I assume we want to uphold correct usage of the English language - not the incorrect one (however widespread that may be) - without embarking on little ego-trips at the expense of learners and enthusiasts..

(I hope we're not starting a debate on _defuse/diffuse_, etc. Two posters out of three - you being #3 - hastened to correct the word they'd misspelled on this thread.)


----------



## elfa

Far be it from me to criticise or otherwise the merits of the Free Dictionary. Without wishing to go too much off topic, I am generally of the opinion that usage is formed by users and not by dictionaries, dictionaries being there to record usage. This is an article about language not being static but evolving, sometimes in the direction of embracing a "wrong" word.


----------



## Teerex51

The case you're desperately trying to make rests on a _*common misspelling*_ that's hoping against all hope to become mainstream. I have the greatest respect for people who own up to a spelling error (and there are two on this very thread).
I guess two out of three is not bad.

Your Oxford Dictionary warns: Do not confuse toe with tow. But, please, confuse away to your heart's content. I am sure WRF readers will weigh all the facts and give your opinion the consideration it deserves. (Or we could take this to the English Only forum and let the chips fall where they may).


----------



## sound shift

An idea: "Renzi is not pulling in the same direction as everyone else/as the rest of us/etc."


----------

