# Wheeling and Dealing



## M2k

Is that any French translation for:


The are good wheelers and dealers
They are good at wheeling and dealing


Thanks WR Crew!


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## GamblingCamel

To help French speakers, "wheeling and dealing" means 
"to be constantly looking for good business opportunities." 

"He's the sort of guy who likes to drive fast cars and _wheel and deal_ on the stock exchange." 

_M2K_, please correct me if you think my definition is off.
Do you think the phrase sometimes suggests that the person is willing to make ethically questionable business deals ?


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## M2k

GamblingCamel- Thanks for the clarification of the word. I think you are correct, it has the connotation of something slightly 'dodgy', not in an extremely harmful way, but just sometimes their deals could be called into question.

A classic example would be Del Boy in Only Fools and Horses.


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## GamblingCamel

This American just learned a couple of new things.
I had never heard "dodgy", but it's great BE.
_Again, to help the French, it means "evasive, tricky, risky."_

And I now know about the BBC sitcom, "Only Fools and Heroes."
I looked up the show on Wiki, and interestingly, its description of Del Boy
pretty much matches the example I used for "wheeler and deeler."

"Del Boy : a fast-talking, archetypal cockney market trader"

Now, French guys, it's time for you all to help us out.


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## Teafrog

A wheeler dealer will be very difficult to translate, I bet. Now here's a challenge… 
My try: Un vendeur à la sauvette, un camelot, un charlatan, un bonimenteur,  un phraseur, un 'I give up'


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## M2k

Thanks tea fog- Any ideas on wheeling and dealing i.e the verb to wheel and deal.

I wold have thought that would be easier to translate?


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## hotpocket

M2k said:


> Thanks tea fog- Any ideas on wheeling and dealing i.e the verb to wheel and deal.
> 
> I wold have thought that would be easier to translate?



The term seems to be related to gambling...i.e. wheeling = roulette wheel, dealing = cards.

...but this doesn't really help--does it.


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## catay

In the Harrap's College Dictionary:
wheeler-dealer - magouilleur/magouilleuse
wheeling and dealing - les manigances
Qu'en pensent les francophones?


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## itka

Hi guys !
You're giving a lot of hints but I can't find a translation to your sentences. What do you wan't exactly ?



> * They* are good wheelers and dealers
> * They* are good at wheeling and dealing



Where are these "they" acting ? Are they trading ? Gambling ? Do they sell something in the street ? In a bank ?

As far as I understand (not so far actually !) I can't decide if they are "smart" in their jobs or in their lifes as well (they like driving fast cars...).

Could you explain a little bit more ?


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## GamblingCamel

French speakers, please tell me if I am on the right track.

Anglocom.com (a translation firm) provides this definition.

_to wheel and deal :_ brasser des affaires.
_Entrepreneurs like to wheel and deal: Les entrepreneurs aiment brasser des affaires._
Dans le même ordre d'idées, ceux qui brassent des affaires s'appellent 
_des wheeler-dealers _ou_ des wheelers-and-dealers._ 

_Tresor_ says:
_Brasser des affaires. _Traiter de nombreuses et importantes affaires en même temps, souvent à la hâte et sans grand scrupule. _Brasser de l'argent, des millions. _En posséder, en manier beaucoup et le faire travailler :

I believe the French etymology comes from "brasser", as in mixing or shaking a liquid.


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## itka

I think you're on the right way GamblingCamel, but all the translations given are quite different and it's very difficult to me to choose one.

"Un brasseur d'affaires" may fit in your context as well as "un charlatan". Though they are completely different !


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## GamblingCamel

On the Internet I found only a couple of examples in French of "wheeler and dealer."

The first one seems along the lines of what we've been talking about.

Au cours de cette phase de *wheeler-dealer* (*brasseur d'affaires* plus ou moins transparentes), il ne développe aucune stratégie industrielle : l'opportunité est la règle, et il n'hésite pas à se disperser. Toute occasion de réaliser des plus-values est bonne à prendre.

Il existe également une technologie développée par une jeune française qui consiste à controler le fonctionnement d'un ordinateur grâce aux yeux ... Cette jeune s'est vu rejetée *des wheelers and dealers français* de la haute technologie.


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## itka

GamblingCamel said:


> On the Internet I found only a couple of examples in French of "wheeler and dealer."
> 
> The first one seems along the lines of what we've been talking about.
> 
> Au cours de cette phase de *wheeler-dealer* (*brasseur d'affaires* plus ou moins transparentes), il ne développe aucune stratégie industrielle : l'opportunité est la règle, et il n'hésite pas à se disperser. Toute occasion de réaliser des plus-values est bonne à prendre.



Dans ce sens, je vous propose : *un affairiste* ou plus familièrement un *combinard,* un peu plus malhonnête : le *chevalier d'industrie*, un peu moins péjoratif, comme il a été dit : *le brasseur d'affaires*...


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## Teafrog

M2k said:


> Thanks tea fog- Any ideas on wheeling and dealing i.e the verb to wheel and deal.
> I wold have thought that would be easier to translate?


Errr, oooops ! Of course, you wanted the verb, which is much much harder to find . So sooooooooory .........


catay said:


> In the Harrap's College Dictionary:
> wheeler-dealer - magouilleur/magouilleuse
> wheeling and dealing - les manigances
> Qu'en pensent les francophones?


 I think you've hit the nail on the head, Catay: *magouiller* 
Could we have a French blessing on this one, or shall we sweep it under the carpet?


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## itka

Teafrog said:


> I think you've hit the nail on the head, Catay: *magouiller*
> Could we have a French blessing on this one, or shall we sweep it under the carpet?



Possible... mais *"magouiller"* ce n'est pas *"brasser des affaires"*... Il faudrait savoir exactement ce que ces verbes signifient en anglais...


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## GamblingCamel

For "magouilleur" I have this Encarta definition:

Personne qui se livre à des manœuvres, des combinaisons et des tractations douteuses ou malhonnêtes
_(familier; péjoratif)._

In my AE if I call someone a "wheeler dealer" I merely mean that
he/she is a tough, creative, hard-driving businessman, who sometimes plays it a bit loose ethically.
I do not mean that he is principally a schemer, a conspirator or a crook.

_Of course our interpretation of whether a tough businessman is by necessity a bit of a crook might reveal our personal __philosophies about the ethics of making money in a capitalist economy._

M2K, who started this thread, is British and may have his own slant.
He and some sleeping Frenchmen will be waking up in several hours to help us.


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## M2k

Non je suis ici.... A wheeler and dealer in my book in simple words is someone who buys stuff and sells it on for a profit. The things they sell in my book could be anything, regardless of whether they know much about it. 

I see as someone 'flogging things on'. If you have heard that expression before. Apologies, don't mean to be patronising, just I'm not au courrant on American English. 

I think we all have different interpretations of it, so it is very difficult to pin point a translation.


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## KaRiNe_Fr

Hello there,



GamblingCamel said:


> [...]
> some sleeping Frenchmen will be waking up in several hours to help us.


Would you mind a not-so-sleeping French woman giving her thoughts? 
Reading this thread I instantly thought of Bernard Tapie (also called _Nanard_). 
He is _un homme d'affaires rusé_ for some and _un combinard/magouilleur _for others...


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## Nicomon

M2k said:


> I see as someone 'flogging things on'. If you have heard that expression before. Apologies, don't mean to be patronising, just I'm not au courrant on American English.


 
To translate BE "flogging" or "to flog" (a verb I'm not familiar with) Robert & Collins suggest _vendre,_ _refiler _or_ (re)fourguer_

I'm also thinking of _trafiquer/traficoter _but this usually implies illegal business.

For "wheeling and dealing", my 2 Idioms dictionaries do not agree... one says _magouiller_ (which is clearly pejorative) and the other says _brasser des affaires_ (more neutral)

In Quebec French, _combinard = maniganceur. _


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## Franglais1969

For those who wish to know:

"To flog" is colloquial BE meaning "to sell."

Bonne nuit.


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## itka

Dear All, 

I don't think that Bernard Tapie was a "magouilleur" (He was maybe in sport, but we're speaking here of trading). Just remember he was crooked by the Credit Lyonnais...

I'd say he was "un brasseur d'affaires", "un affairiste habile" (...could be pleonastic !) but I agree with Karine, some would call him "un combinard"... It hangs on different interpretations of his work... and I'm not a specialist !


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## catay

Nicomon said:


> For "wheeling and dealing", my 2 Idioms dictionaries do not agree... one says _magouiller_ (which is clearly pejorative) and the other says _brasser des affaires_ (more neutral)
> 
> In Quebec French, _combinard = maniganceur. _


 
A great discussion….
I think Nicomon’s combinard\maniganceur works well.
Le Trésor: « _Fam._ et _péj._ (Personne) qui est habile à utiliser des combines, des moyens astucieux et peu honnêtes pour parvenir à ses fins. »
 

I came across the verb « manigancer ». Would it be used in this context as well?

Another term for wheeler dealer that came to my mind was « an operator, or a smooth operator », someone who is an adept negotiator and resorts to unscrupulous or questionable means for personal gain or rusé, as Karine_Fr suggested: Le Trésor : « Qui est adroit à se glisser, à déjouer les pièges pour arriver à ses fins. »

Although a wheeler dealer’s activities are not completely illegal, I think Gambling Camel’s definition of someone “who sometimes plays it a bit loose ethically” captures the nuance, not an outright “crook”, but someone who may be willing to engage in “shady deals” to further their own interests. 
For me the term has a "pejorative flavour"


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## Teafrog

From the Oxford dict.( phrases): — _To wheel and deal:_ engage in commercial or political scheming. The wheel of Fortune the wheel which the deity Fortune is fabled to turn as a symbol of random luck or change. Wheels within wheels secret or indirect influences affecting a complex situation.

Un combinard? 
Mmmh! Ama, le terme que nous recherchons tombe (peut-être) entre "brasser les affaires" et "se livrer à des magouilles". Un magouilleur fait des affaires louches et malhonnêtes, tandis qu’un "brasseur d’affaire" est plutôt qcq d’honnête qui s’efforce de traiter beaucoup … d’affaires, dans le même domaine, par ex, de vendre des voitures (? pas 100% sûr de ça… !) ; autrement dit, un businessman sur stéroïdes .
Est-ce que l'on peu dire "un traficoteur" (thanks Nicomon) ou un maniganceur" (thanks Catay)?

Un "wheeler dealer" serait donc un petit businessman qui se débat pour faire n’importe quelle affaire (il traficote à droite et à gauche) - un jour, il vend des pommes, l’autre des ordinateurs (qui lui serait vendus à un prix dérisoire > c.a.d. piqués), et un autre jour, ça pourrait être des éponges. A la fin du compte, le tout pour lui est de faire un profit. >>> He will flog anything to turn a profit!

Tout ça pour répondre au post #15 d'Itka . J’espère que cela va vous aider pour nous trouver la traduction de "Wheeler Dealer" 
How about "*un **honnête **magouilleur*" ? 
Phhhhew!


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## Nicomon

catay said:


> A great discussion….
> I think Nicomon’s combinard\maniganceur works well.


 
To render onto Ceasar... *itka *(posts #13 & 21) and *KaRiNe* (post #18) suggested combinard. I mainly gave the Quebec equivalence. 

I kind of like the ring of *traficoteur.*


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## Gil

Nicomon said:


> To render onto Ceasar... *itka *(posts #13 & 21) and *KaRiNe* (post #18) suggested combinard. I mainly gave the Quebec equivalence.
> 
> I kind of like the ring of *traficoteur.*


Salut Nicomon
Et moi j'aime le "ring" de _maquignon_ et _maquignonnage_


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## yvandas

My suggestion: 
They are good wheelers and dealers = ce sont de bons brasseurs d'affaires.
They are good at wheeling and dealing = ils excèlent à brasser des affaires.
_Magouilleurs _is very prejorative and should only be used in the context of crooks.


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## Nicomon

Gil said:


> Salut Nicomon
> Et moi j'aime le "ring" de _maquignon_ et _maquignonnage_


 
Salut Gil.  Autant l'avouer... j'ai dù vérifier dans le dico. 

Maquigonnage me semble plus utilisé dans le sens de manigance/manoeuvre malhonnête que vente non? À moins bien sûr que le gars vende des chevaux. 




> [Vieilli]Marchand de chevaux ou de bovins.
> Marchand de chevaux ou de bovins peu scrupuleux.
> Personne qui fait des manœuvres malhonnêtes.
> 
> Manœuvres malhonnêtes. Maquignonnage électoral.


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## Gil

Nicomon said:


> Salut Gil.  Autant l'avouer... j'ai dù vérifier dans le dico.
> 
> Maquigonnage me semble plus utilisé dans le sens de manigance/manoeuvre malhonnête que vente non? À moins bien sûr que le gars vende des chevaux.


La dernière définition de "maquignonnage" que j'ai vue (je l'ai écrite) c'est "commerce international réglé comptant"


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## parbr2

Sorry to reply to such an old thread, but Termium uses "grenouillage" as wheeling and dealing, but it also mentions "brasseur d'affaires" for wheeler dealer.

I would love to know if you can simply say: Cette personne était adepte à négocier et conclure des ventes.


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