# ante litteram



## jujjia

Salve a tutti! 
Stavo provando a tradurre questa frase:

"Questi giochi diffusi in tutto il mondo raccontano una storia di globalizzazione ante litteram"

These games, spread all over the world, are telling a story of ::::::: globalisation

Non saprei come rendere "ante litteram"....
avete qualche idea?

Grazie mille!!!

juj


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## miri

Forse "ahead-of-time globalization"  ? O "early globalization" ?


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## brian

Non so se esista un'espressione simile in inglese. Forse _globalization before/ahead of its time_, ma non mi suona tanto....


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## london calling

brian8733 said:


> Non so se esista un'espressione simile in inglese. Forse _globalization before/ahead of its time_, ma non mi suona tanto....


Yes, Brian, you're right,  we tend to speak of people as being ahead of their time (Leonardo Da Vinci, Jules Verne, just to name a couple).

What we mean here is that globalisation existed before the word itself was invented. Maybe we would have to paraphrase this in English:

_..tell the story of what was to become known as globalisation..._

What do you think?


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## jujjia

Thank you all!!!!
)


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## brian

_What was to become known as / what would later be known as_ sound fine to me.

I have a slight feeling that we have an equivalent in English, but it's not coming to mind. Hmm..


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## tomzenith

brian8733 said:


> _What was to become known as / what would later be known as_ sound fine to me.
> 
> I have a slight feeling that we have an equivalent in English, but it's not coming to mind. Hmm..



That's really annoying, I'm sure there's a word that's just dancing around in the back of my head! 

The only problem I can see with saying 'what would become know as' is that it implies a definite link between one and the other, that they are part of the same thing (ie. that what we know call globalization has its roots in the example being talked about) which seems stronger than the original 'ante litteram'.

It's very common in English to add the prefix 'proto' to something that appears before its time, but I'm not sure whether it would be the same in this context. 'Proto-globalization', anyone?


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## miri

Maybe "the games foreran/anticipated" ??


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## brian

Eh.. _forerunner_ is a nice noun, but (as far as I know) _to forerun_ does not exist as a verb, so _foreran_ .

_Anticipated_, okay but you already have a verb in the sentence: _to tell a story of_.

I think _proto-_ is pretty good except maybe sometimes it gives the sense of _crude_--because it's an old, imprecise, not-yet-improved, etc. version--for example a proto-computer might be a really big, old, slow piece of metal with about the same power as a cheap handheld calculator.


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## miri

Is Ragazzini dictionary wrong, Brian?

to forerun 
(pass. foreran, p. p. forerun), v. t.
precorrere; essere un precursore di; adombrare; prefigurare.

Moreover, "tell a story" might just mean "the games are an example of/hint at/make you think of", something less literal than actually telling a tale...  
jujjia??


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## tomzenith

brian8733 said:


> I think _proto-_ is pretty good except maybe sometimes it gives the sense of _crude_--because it's an old, imprecise, not-yet-improved, etc. version--for example a proto-computer might be a really big, old, slow piece of metal with about the same power as a cheap handheld calculator.



I agree to be honest, I also think it sounds too complicated. Along the lines of 'anticipate', how about 'are telling a story that *anticipates* globalization'? Though that doesn't quite have the same meaning I suppose.

Or, how about: 'are telling a story of globalization that precedes globalization'? Ugly, but it gets the job done.

This is a tricky one..


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## brian

Miri, I won't say 100% that your dictionary is "wrong," but I can say that I've never seen or heard _to forerun_ in my life--at least not that I know of.


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## tomzenith

I've just checked, and 'fore-run' is in the OED as a verb, though it's not that common (I don't think I've heard either, its latest citation is in Tennyson in 1859).

In light of Miri's suggestion that 'tell a story of' could be rephrased, I think 'act as precursors of' might fit.


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## miri

Brian, could you please take a look at "forerun" in dictionary.com and confirm if it is obsolete or something?


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## rrose17

I have to agree with Brian8733 that despite the dictionary I've never heard the word foreran used nor forerun used as a verb, for that matter. It doesn't mean it doesn't exist but certainly not in common usage.

What about the following
These games, spread all over the world, are telling a story of predestined globalisation

Not exactly the same but gives a similar meaning.


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## brian

There are five definitions in the OED for _forerun_. The first three are obsolete. The last two, "to be a precursor of" and "to anticipate, forestall" are not labeled as obsolete, but they do not have attestations listed after 1859 (by Tennyson).

Of course it's completely natural to assume that _forerun_ works as a verb; indeed, it _should_ be usable since it's so easily understandable. The fact is, however, no one ever uses it, so I'd say it's best to avoid it.

Anyway, maybe more context would help. What kinds of games are these? How exactly does a game "tell" a story? What kind of story?


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## miri

Thank you Tom, rrose and Brian for your clarification


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## tomzenith

This might be a really appalingly lazy suggestion, but since it's a latin term, and latin terms are often used in accademic discourse, you could always just use 'ante litteram'..


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## brian

The problem is that I don't think _ante litteram_ exists as an expression in English--and even if it does, it's not widely known.

And it hardly even helps if you know Latin, since the literal translation is _before the letter_.

If anything, upon reading the Latin I would personally think _before letters / before writing_, i.e. pre-literate times, and that's certainly not correct.


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## tomzenith

Yeah, didn't think that one would fly..


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## Fred_C

brian8733 said:


> The problem is that I don't think _ante litteram_ exists as an expression in English--and even if it does, it's not widely known.
> 
> And it hardly even helps if you know Latin, since the literal translation is _before the letter_.
> 
> If anything, upon reading the Latin I would personally think _before letters / before writing_, i.e. pre-literate times, and that's certainly not correct.


 Hi,
The situation you are describing is very common.
Latin phrases used in a given language are very seldomly international. It is wrong to believe that it safe to keep them as they are when you are translating a text.


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## brian

Yes, that was exactly my point, Fred.


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## ancilianumae

I'd probably say something like "before the concept even existed."


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## Paulfromitaly

A useful list

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Latin_phrases_%28A%29


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## london calling

Paulfromitaly said:


> A useful list
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Latin_phrases_(A)


Thanks, Paul.
I still think what I suggested many moons ago would work, however. Pardon my blowing my own trumpet!


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## dutchneil13

See also  http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=19008&langid=13.  You could use "avant la lettre", it's quite common in (American?)  English (it's in the Merriam-Webster -  http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/avant la lettre).


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## london calling

dutchneil13 said:


> You could use "avant la lettre", it's quite common in (American?)  English (it's in the Merriam-Webster .


I've never heard or read that in my life, so maybe it is only AE.


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## joanvillafane

I speak AE and I speak French and I have never heard "avant la lettre" used by an English speaker!  It would be as obscure as the Latin phrase, I imagine.  
And just for the record, I think the best equivalents we've had here are in post #4 (I'll toot your horn for you, LC!) and post #23. Also, it may not fit exactly in the sentence in the OP, but "forerunner" to me is also an excellent choice (mentioned by brian in post #9, but then the discussion went off on a tangent about forerun/foreran.)


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## GavinW

joanvillafane said:


> I speak AE and I speak French and I have never heard "avant la lettre" used by an English speaker! It would be as obscure as the Latin phrase, I imagine. And just for the record, I think the best equivalents we've had here are in post #4 (I'll toot your horn for you, LC!) and post #23. Also, it may not fit exactly in the sentence in the OP, but "forerunner" to me is also an excellent choice (mentioned by brian in post #9, but then the discussion went off on a tangent about forerun/foreran.)



You make some sane and valid points (which needed to be stressed). I also like "an early forerunner", "an early precursor".


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## alfajor

Before the term existed.
Before the term was coined.

Ahead of its/one's time.


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## johngiovanni

Before we had ever heard the term.


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