# 'correct'/'alternate' pronunciation of 'ch'



## wolverine77

Hallo,

I am a bit confused about correct german pronunciation of some words, mostly the ones with "ch" in them.

Such as:

rechts
ich
sprechen 
nacht
sechs

Is it a local specific pronunciation? I have heard from germans on these words the "ch" said as "k" sound, an "ish" sound, and somewhat of a mixture of both. It's very difficult for me to understand spoken german and I think this has something to do with it.

My family lived in Munich when I was a child and my dad told me that he said "rechts" as "rekts" and the germans didn't correct his pronunciation.

This came to mind as I was reading about how the words nackt and nacht are pronounced. These are two that I obivously don't want to be mistaken for when I am speaking german.


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## Sepia

The key point is the vowel that comes before the ch. (e and i). You have the same thing in English with these vowels coming after c.

The citizens of California and Colorado are not Celtic.


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## DerKleineFreak

rechts (without k, with ch)
ich (without k, with ch)
sprechen (without k, with ch)
nacht (without k, witch ch)
sechs (without ch, with k)

Is it a local specific pronunciation?
- Yeah. The Berlin pronunciation of "ich" is mostly the wrong "ik".

My family lived in Munich when I was a child and my dad told me that he said "rechts" as "rekts" and the germans didn't correct his pronunciation.
- It' wrong. "Rechts" is without a k.

This came to mind as I was reading about how the words nackt and nacht are pronounced. These are two that I obivously don't want to be mistaken for when I am speaking german. 
- nacht (without k, with ch)
- nackt (wihtout ch, with k)


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## Lykurg

We shouldn't forget the difference between 
1) ch after a, o, u  and 
2) ch after e, i, ä, ü, ö and consonants:

1) In the first case we use the voiceless uvular fricative [χ], as in Scottish "Loch", German "nachts" , "Bach" etc.
2) Otherwise it will be the voiceless palatal fricative [ç], similar to English "huge" or "human"; you'll need this for "rechts", "sprechen" and "ich".

There are some regional differences, though. Austrians (and Bavarians?) use the first one for "Furcht" (fear), which sounds dreadful to me. ;-)


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## Whodunit

In the word "*sechs*", the pronunciation is easy for English natives: "zeks". Every time you see "chs", it is pronounced like "ks" (it's one sound for us), but there are of course exceptions like "Buchstütze" (because it is a compoun of the two words Buch and Stütze).


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## MrMagoo

Whodunit said:
			
		

> In the word "*sechs*", the pronunciation is easy for English natives: "zeks". Every time you see "chs", it is pronounced like "ks" (it's one sound for us), but there are of course exceptions like "Buchstütze" (because it is a compoun of the two words Buch and Stütze).


 
And exceptions like "der nächste und höchste Berg" - obwohl auch hier in einigen Mundarten das [Cs] zum [ks] wird.


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## FloVi

DerKleineFreak said:
			
		

> Is it a local specific pronunciation?
> - Yeah. The Berlin pronunciation of "ich" is mostly the wrong "ik".



Das ist aber schon Dialekt, der ist soo häufig gar nicht mehr zu hören. Viel öfter hört man hier in Berlin das "ch" als "sch".


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## Whodunit

MrMagoo said:
			
		

> And exceptions like "der nächste und höchste Berg" - obwohl auch hier in einigen Mundarten das [Cs] zum [ks] wird.


 
Das lässt sich noch weiter verkomplizieren: 

Ich verwende drei Versionen: Um korrekt sprechen zu wollen, nehme ich [çs], wenn ich schnell spreche, dann klingt es nur wie [s] (d.h. ich spreche kein "ch"). Manchmal – ich weiß aber nicht wann – sage ich wirklich [ks].


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## Kajjo

wolverine77 said:
			
		

> rechts
> ich
> sprechen
> nacht
> sechs
> 
> Is it a local specific pronunciation? I have heard from germans on these words the "ch" said as "k" sound, an "ish" sound, and somewhat of a mixture of both. It's very difficult for me to understand spoken german and I think this has something to do with it.



Hi Wolverine,
some straightforward answers:

1) Yes, the sounds you describe are dialect and not proper standard German. It is understandable that you have difficulties with such sounds.

2) There are two standard pronunciations for ch, depending on the vowel (see above).

3) The word "sechs" is different, because "chs" is a sometimes a different sound like english -ks or -x. However, as MrMagoo pointed out, there are words with "chs" that are pronounced like -ch and -s (nächste, höchste).

4) The ch-sounds are indeed a challenge for English native speakers. Be careful to train the correct pronunciation and not dialect versions.

Kajjo


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## Kajjo

Whodunit said:
			
		

> Ich verwende drei Versionen: Um korrekt sprechen zu wollen, nehme ich [çs], wenn ich schnell spreche, dann klingt es nur wie [s] (d.h. ich spreche kein "ch"). Manchmal – ich weiß aber nicht wann – sage ich wirklich [ks].



Ich dachte, wir wollten bei Anfänger-Fragen nicht solche Dialekt-Spielchen treiben. Der Fragesteller sollte eine konkrete, hochdeutsche Antwort bekommen und keine Verwirrspielchen entschlüssel müssen.

Kajjo


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## Whodunit

Kajjo said:
			
		

> Ich dachte, wir wollten bei Anfänger-Fragen nicht solche Dialekt-Spielchen treiben. Der Fragesteller sollte eine konkrete, hochdeutsche Antwort bekommen und keine Verwirrspielchen entschlüssel müssen.
> 
> Kajjo


 
Ich wollte damit sagen, dass es nicht ungewöhnlich ist, wenn jemand das "ch" vor einem etra gesprochenen "s" weglässt. Wenn er "höste" sagen würde, würde ich nichts korrigieren. Ihr habt außerdem auch zwei Varianten aufgelistet, also war es auch keine *ein*deutige Antwort. 

Die einfachste Sache ist erst einmal: "chs" spricht man wie x [ks] aus, es gibt aber Ausnahmen.


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## Kajjo

Whodunit said:
			
		

> Ich wollte damit sagen, dass es nicht ungewöhnlich ist, wenn jemand das "ch" vor einem etra gesprochenen "s" weglässt. Wenn er "höste" sagen würde, würde ich nichts korrigieren. Ihr habt außerdem auch zwei Varianten aufgelistet, also war es auch keine *ein*deutige Antwort.
> 
> Die einfachste Sache ist erst einmal: "chs" spricht man wie x [ks] aus, es gibt aber Ausnahmen.



OK, soweit ist das in Ordnung. 

Kajjo


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## gaer

FloVi said:
			
		

> Das ist aber schon Dialekt, der ist soo häufig gar nicht mehr zu hören. Viel öfter hört man hier in Berlin das "ch" als "sch".


I have heard what sounds to me close to "isch" in many book recordings using more than one reader. Same with "misch" (mich). Other speakers quite clearly say "ich", "mich". I assumed it was regional.

When I visited Berlin, everyone laughed at me when I said that I wanted to spend a lot of time looking for "Büsche". This is what people heard. I was attempting to say "Bücher". Very embarrassing. 

Gaer


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## wolverine77

Danke sehr. It's nice to hear from actual german speakers about this. On some internet language sites "sechs" is pronounced as "chs" instead the "ks". Good to know I was right about something for a change.

Ich bin dankbar für die Hilfe.


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## MrMagoo

gaer said:
			
		

> When I visited Berlin, everyone laughed at me when I said that I wanted to spend a lot of time looking for "Büsche". This is what people heard. I was attempting to say "Bücher". Very embarrassing.
> 
> Gaer



*haha*
"Büsche" indeed has a meaning, and I can imagine, everybody thought you were looking for a "drive-through-bathroom" sort of...


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## calfieria

I also had the same question. My friend takes German, and says that words like ich and dich are pronounced with a "k" sound. But I also listen to some German music and they pronounce these words as "sh" sounds.


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## Sidjanga

calfieria said:


> I also had the same question. My friend takes German, and says that words like ich and dich are pronounced with a "k" sound. definitely not But I also listen to some German music and they pronounce these words as "sh" sounds. maybe when imitating the French or other foreign or very regional accents


In standard pronounciation (which is normally also used in songs) the pronounciation of _ch _is neither of these. 
In regional dialects, though, you may find just about any version imaginable. But these are not standard and just regional phenomena.

_ch _in _ich _or _rechnen _is pronounced really just [ç], a palatal sound quite similar to the whizzing sound at the beginning of the English name _Hugh_, especially if you prolong it and use much air.

The only officially recognised exeption is the Swiss German pronounciation of _ch_, where there is no distinction between its pronounciation in words like _ich _or _lachen_. There, it's always pronounced [x] (like in Spanish _*J*uan_)


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## Sidjanga

In some Western regions of Germany there's a linuistic phenomenon that works rather the other way round: instead of [ʃ] (like for example in _Fi*sch*_, or also English _fi*sh*_) people there pronounce [ç] (like in standard _i*ch*_).

Like for example in this famous sentence:

_"Ich kam nach Haus', sah auf den Tich [tiç], kein Fleich [flaiç], kein Fich [fiç], komich [komiç], nich'?"_
(instead of _Tisch_, _Fleisch_, _Fisch, komisch_ with [ʃ] like in also in English _fi*sh*_.

But obviously, this isn't standard pronounciation, either.


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## PMCB

I was discussing German pronunciation with a colleague the other day, and she mentioned that someone had told her that "sh" is a possible pronunciation of *ch* in German.  I have only heard Germans (from the north of Germany, I believe) pronounce it this way on one or two occasions, and, to my ear, saying "sh" for *ch* doesn't sound quite standard.  What do the completely native German speakers have to say about this?

(Ihr könnt mir auf Deutsch sowohl wie auf Englisch zurückschreiben; ich habe hier meistens auf Englisch geschrieben, weil ich in Eile bin J!)
Vielen Dank für eure Hilfe!


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## Chefe

PMCB said:


> I was discussing German pronunciation with a colleague the other day, and she mentioned that someone had told her that "sh" is a possible pronunciation of *ch* in German.  I have only heard Germans (from the north of Germany, I believe) pronounce it this way on one or two occasions, and, to my ear, saying "sh" for *ch* doesn't sound quite standard.  What do the completely native German speakers have to say about this?
> 
> (Ihr könnt mir auf Deutsch sowohl wie auf Englisch zurückschreiben; ich habe hier meistens auf Englisch geschrieben, weil ich in Eile bin J!)
> Vielen Dank für eure Hilfe!



Hello,

i think it is difficult in general to talk about "possible" pronounciations in the German language. I know for a fact that in the Mannheim region people speaking the local dialect seem to be unable to pronounce the ch altogether, but you can already tell from my slightly sarcastic way to say this that people from different dialect regions would tell you that pronouncing the ch like a sh is absolutely not an option  It is certainly not standard in any case.


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## Forero

_Ch_ in _ach_ is nothing like an _sh_.  _Ch_ in _ich_ may sound a lot like an English _sh_, but it is still very different from German _sch_.


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## Hutschi

There are some regional accents where "ch" in "ich" sounds like "sh", but this is definitely nonstandard usage. 

The German "sch" is very similar to English "sh".


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## Sidjanga

Good morning, 

I have merged the new question ("alternate pronunciation of 'ch'") with this very similar old one ("correct pronunciation ..."), where that topic has also been dealt with. Please continue the discussion here.

And these threads might bee interesting, too: Pronunciation of "Ich", [x]/[ç]: significance of the phonetic context

(using the search function in the top right corner or at the bottom of each forum's main page, you can find previous questions/discussions about a certain topic you are interested in)
,


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## berndf

Mixing _ich-ch_ and _sch _is quite typical for "Mitteldeutsch" dialects (see here for a map these dialects). A piculiarity is the region labeled "1" in this map. There _ch_ and _sch_ are swapped, i.e. you pronounce _Mädchen_ like _Mädsche_ and _Mensch_ like _Men(t)ch_. Many "Oberdeutsch" dialects (i.e. south of the region on the map) tend to merge the _ich-ch_ into the _ach-ch. _Northern dialects tend to keep the three (_ich-ch, ach-ch _and_ sch_) distinct.


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## ABBA Stanza

Thanks for the map, Bernd!

I live just about in region 4 (between Frankfurt and Heidelberg). Where I live, _Fläche_ is pronounced exactly like English speakers pronounce "flesh", just with an "e" stuck on the end.

(...)

Cheers,
Abba


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## berndf

The region you are referring to (southern Hesse) has an other peculiarity: They pronounce _sch_ and _ich-ch_ voiced, i.e. like French _g_ in front of e or i. The  South-Hessian shibboleth  is  "Aschenbecher" (ash tray) which  you have to pronounce "Aggebäggä" (sorry, I can't produce IPA on the terminal from which I am typing; "gg" is representing a long French palatalized _g_).


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## driFDer

I have always had particular trouble with the word "bisschen."  I am always trying to pronounce this word as: biss-chen.   Of course, never does it come out that way.

An interesting thing that I have picked up on while studying German is the varying degrees of the "harshness" of the spoken soft "ch."  I have heard "ich" or "mich" spoken very soft and almost voiceless, which to the ears of a native English speaker sounds VERY similar to the "sch" or our "sh."  (Seems to occur with males with low or soft-spoken voices, and most females.  Also, those who speak at slower pace.)However, I have also heard (usually with males with voices in a higher frequency range and those whom speak much faster) pronoun the "ch" with an abrupt, quick and sharp "ch."  Maybe it is just me but I have certainly notice a pattern.   Now, when it comes to the folks from Switzerland, forget it.  I can heardly understand a word.


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## berndf

driFDer said:


> I have always had particular trouble with the word "bisschen." I am always trying to pronounce this word as: biss-chen. Of course, never does it come out that way.


Low German speakers have the same problem. When speaking High German with a Northern accent they often pronounce it "bü-sch(e)n" (the proper Low German word is "beeten").


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## sokol

driFDer said:


> I have always had particular trouble with the word "bisschen."  I am always trying to pronounce this word as: biss-chen.   Of course, never does it come out that way.


As Bernd has noticed for Northerners it is also difficult for Southerners to pronounce "bisschen" like it is supposed to be according to the standard language normation.

Austrians do pronounce it with a velar /x/ (which is articulated furhter back than the "ich-sound");*) not even average educated television speakers manage this sound combination of /-sç-/: the difficulty involved here is that /s/ and /ç/ are pronounced almost at the same position on the palatum, but with different positions of the tongue.
(And I guess that the same is true for Swiss German only that their /ch/ is pronounced even further back in the throat: as an uvular fricative.)
*) This though is true for Austrian speech in general. Nevertheless, it is achievable for Austrians to learn pronouncing /ç/ but very difficult to also learn the combination of /sç/.

Now I would be really curious in which region of Germany most speakers *can *pronounce /-sç-/ correctly and with ease.


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## Kurtchen

berndf said:


> Low German speakers have the same problem. When speaking High German with a Northern accent they often pronounce it "bü-sch(e)n" (the proper Low German word is "beeten").



Got to say I'm _'n betten_ (... just teasing, berndf ) suprised at hearing this. Whenever I encounter things like _büschen_ (which I think may be _Missingsch_?) in normal conversation it's either laziness or somebody ostentatiously trying  to sound casual.



sokol said:


> Now I would be really curious in which region of Germany most speakers *can *pronounce /-sç-/ correctly and with ease.



I've never noticed people in my neck of the woods having particular problems pronouncing sç


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## berndf

Kurtchen said:


> Got to say I'm _'n betten_ (... just teasing, berndf ) suprised at hearing this.


Without teasing(): Both variations (and a few more) exist. Low German is not a homogeneous language.





Kurtchen said:


> _büschen_ (which I think may be _Missingsch_?)


Yes, that is precisely what it is*.
_____________________________
_* For the benefit of people who don't know the word "Missingsch": Northerners use it to refer to the High German dialects which developed after the replacement of Low German as a standard language._


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## Lojain

Thank you so so much for these good information.

But what is the differences between sh,ch,k?


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## Hutschi

"sh" does not exist in German as letter combination for a sound. In the texts above they usually mean the english "sh". In standard writing it may be compared to the German letter combination "sch".
"ch" has a lot of different pronunciations, see above in the text. It depends as well on the vowel in front of it as on the placement in the word (it is very different at the beginning of a syllable in some cases). "k" is spoken similar to the English "c" in "car" or to the k in "book".


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## Cpt.Eureka

The english "sh" is the german "sch".

Englisch
School - "Sch" is spoken like "sc" in "scar".

German
Schule - "Sch" is spoken like "sh" in "shoe".


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## Sidjanga

Lojain said:


> But what is the differences between sh,ch,k?


"*sh*" in English = "sch" in German = ش in Arabic.

"*ch*" in originally German words: after the vowels /a/, /o/, /u/ _normally _like خ (there are a few exceptions though).

In most other cases, it's pronounced like when _starting _to pronounce the ي in يا, for example, just that it's "voiceless", i.e. you _don't use your voice_; you put your _tongue in the same position_ you would need to pronounce the ي in يا, but you then _just blow out air.
_Or like the sound you get at the end of رأي if you let out a lot of air when pronouncing the ي (the sound is somewhat similar to the _sh _sound in English _ship_, but it's not the same).

(I wrote "in originally German words", as pronunciation normally differs in loan or foreign words that are used in German; see the explanations above)

*k* = ك

مع السلامة


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