# Different warnings: Keep young children and the elderly away



## alogbe

I have an outdoor grill made by a well-known company. It displays a safety warning in 11 languages. Here is the English version:

_*Grill and accessible parts may be very hot. Keep young children and the elderly away!*_

One of them is in Finnish, which I have not deciphered, but the other ten are quite easy to understand, and - with one exception - they all say the same thing. For instance, here is the French:

*Le barbecue et les pièces accessibles peuvent être très chauds. Garder les enfants et les personnes âgées éloignées!*

But look at the exception:

*Der Grill und berührbare Teile können sehr heiß werden. Halten Sie kleine Kinder und Haustiere fern!*

Does this tell us something about the German attitude to old people? I hope not. 

*<deleted by moderator>*


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## Hutschi

alogbe said:


> ...
> But look at the exception:
> 
> *Der Grill und berührbare Teile können sehr heiß werden.  Halten Sie kleine Kinder und Haustiere fern!*
> 
> Does this tell us something about the German attitude to old people?  I hope not.
> ...




It shows that they trust old people. Maybe there were very few accidents in Germany with old people but many with children and domestic animals.

Maybe it is a cultural translation considering different laws.

---

You certainly know the urban legend in the U.S.A. about the old woman who dried a cat in a microwave device ...
Maybe your text warns that in Germany the cats themselves spring into the grill without help of old women  .

---

Seriously: I suppose it is not a translation but a new text considering the requirements of law in different countries.


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## alogbe

Hutschi said:


> Seriously: I suppose it is not a translation but a new text considering the requirements of law in different countries.


Truly, I hadn't thought of that possibility.


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## HON_Redakteur

Hi, alogbe:

I wonder in what language the _*original*_ text (which was then translated into the other 12 languages) was. Maybe English? But even if it was English: Perhaps it was written by someone in Singapore or India.

Best,


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## Hutschi

Ich denke, es kann (neben eventuellen gesetzlichen Erfordernissen) auch an Traditionen liegen. Hier wird auch von sehr alten Menschen gegrillt. Grillen hat eine lange Tradition. Das wurde vielleicht berücksichtigt. Es wäre sehr schlecht, sie auszuschließen. Ich wundere mich, dass die Altersdiskriminierung in vielen Ländern in diesem Falle "normal" erscheint.

Mein Vater hat noch mit 76 Jahren gegrillt.


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## berndf

alogbe said:


> Does this tell us something about the German attitude to old people? I hope not.


I actually *do* hope it does. Like Hutschi, I would be very irritated to read a text where senior citizens are compared to small children.
 
Well, comparing small children to animals is also irritating but unfortunately not without tradition in Germany; like the famous sign "Kinder und Haustiere verboten".


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## alogbe

Hutschi said:


> Mein Vater hat noch mit 76 Jahren gegrillt.


Ist das denn merkwürdig?  Um Gottes Willen, Hutschi, ich bin selber schon 72 und kann nicht nur grillen, sondern auch die Sicherheitsvorschriften lesen (allerdings nur mit Brille).


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## Hutschi

Das freut mich.

Der Text scheint von den Herstellern schlecht durchdacht zu sein.

What is the exact meaning of "elderly"? Maybe I misunderstand the connotations.


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## alogbe

Hutschi said:


> What is the exact meaning of "elderly"?


I don't think it has an exact meaning.  It's almost "old" but not quite; I would say it suggests a greater degree of mobility.  

If in doubt, "elderly" is rather more polite, I think.

In my own case I prefer the term "mature".


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## dec-sev

What do you think of "Keep young children..."?I don't see any need to use "young". Besides, as far as I know, a young girl is older than just a girl.


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## Hutschi

I think the goal of the text is a warning. 

Only very young children, up to three or maybe six will not know that it is heated.

So the text "young children" seems to be ok.
Animals cannot think, so you should take care, too.

I suppose the office used "elderly" for senile (e.g.with, Alzheimer or other diseases) old man or women as a kind of euphemism. If they cannot take care for themselves you have to take care. But the document goes too far and considers age itself as disease.


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## dec-sev

berndf said:


> "Kinder und Haustiere verboten".


Und was schlägst du vor? Zwei separate Schilde zu hängen?


alogbe said:


> You certainly know the urban legend in the U.S.A. about the old woman who dried a cat in a microwave device ...


I'll say you more. I know the legend is continued. The woman sued the maker of the macrowave and won the case. 
That's why if I were to write such warnings I would think of every possilbe and impossilbe thing a person could do with a macrowave or a grill and include them into the waring. 


Hutschi said:


> Only very young children, up to three or maybe six will not know that it is heated.


 My point is that "small children" is better than "young children", but I would omit "young" altogether.
P.S. I've heard that there is a law in Alaska that it's not allowed to drop a deer from a flying plane there


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## alogbe

We are perhaps wandering from the original topic, but if I were hired to advise the grill manufacturer, I would say: don't try to decide who needs to be allowed to go near this device - you cannot possibly know.  Give the information that is really important, and let the user decide who needs to be warned.

The user doesn't need to be told that the grill gets hot.  He knows that; that's why he bought it.  What he needs to be told is what he might not have realized, for example (1) that other parts of the apparatus get hot, not only the grill; and (2) that things may stay hot for some time after the grill has been turned off.

Only my opinion.  What a pity that the manufacturer won't pay me for it.


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## Ben Jamin

HON_Redakteur said:


> Hi, alogbe:
> 
> I wonder in what language the _*original*_ text (which was then translated into the other 12 languages) was. Maybe English? But even if it was English: Perhaps it was written by someone in Singapore or India.
> 
> Best,


Is 'young children' good English? Can children be old?


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## HON_Redakteur

Hi, Ben Jamin:

>>Is 'young children' good English? Can children be old? <<

There is an entire continuum of growth stages (some overlapping) and corresponding terms: premies, newborns, infants, rug-rats, toddlers, pre-schoolers, kindergardeners, grade schoolers, pre-teens, teens, etc. As well as young children, older children, youths, youngsters, pre-adults, etc.

However, in my remark, I tried to make the point that the original language (Ausgangstext) could be relevant, as well as the national provenance of the respective translator.

After all: Wouldn't a Silesian translate differently than a Kashubian? A Wolhynian differently than a Danziger? The situation is even more extreme with English: Here, you have people from all over the world claiming it as their auxiliary language.

I'm merely saying that the phenomenon alogbe (see above) has brought to our attention has quite a few more dimensions.

Best,


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## dec-sev

Hi.





HON_Redakteur said:


> After all: Wouldn't a Silesian translate differently than a Kashubian? A Wolhynian differently than a Danziger? The situation is even more extreme with English: Here, you have people from all over the world claiming it as their auxiliary language.


I'm not sure I follow you here. The Silesian word for "book" will be translated into English as "book" as well as the German "Buch" will aslo be "book". 
I proposed that "young" should be omitted not only because of linguistic reasons, so to say. "Young" narrows, in my opinion, the age of the children who can't be allowed to use the grill which is not necessary at all: parents themselves can decide if thier children can use it or not. 
As for further dimensions, these are different laws which are different in different countries, I guess. May be there is a law on protecting of old people in Germany and not mentioning a correspondent warning on a grill will be a violation of this law. May be I'm  wrong here but I've heard that the US juridical system is based on precedents and that's why there are laws that, for example, prohibit bringing a lion to the theater.


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## HON_Redakteur

Hi, dec-sev:

>>I'm not sure I follow you here. The Silesian word for "book" will be translated into English as "book" as well as the German "Buch" will aslo be "book".<<

Are you sure? And are you sure that applies not just to "book," but to all words? My point was that, besides differences existing between regional variants / dialects of a single language (with correspondingly different translation results - q.v. the "Harry Potter" books, which have to be Americanized), there are also regional differences in mentality which likewise influence translations.

The case at hand is a little extreme / pathological, but in my day-to-day translation work, I'm frequently confronted with texts containing passages which are a real challenge to me, or at least require my attentiveness.

One trivial example: When in a German text mention is made of "Kollegen/innen," it would be stupid of me to translate that literally with "male/female colleagues" (unless the text has something to do with, e.g., bathroom use, etc.). Likewise, if I'm translating instructions on how to apply disposal baby diapers for, e.g., Iran, it might be considered offensive or outrageous if I didn't change references to the "father/mother" to, simply, the "mother."

Best,


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## dec-sev

I see your point now, but I can't believe it that the difference between the English and German versions ("edlerly" in English and "Haustiere" in German) is due to a regional differences in mentality. What's wrong with pets in England? Do they eat dogs like Koreans?


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## alogbe

Mit Hilfe vom finnischen Forumteil habe ich inzwischen festgestellt, daß ältere Leute auch in der finnischen Version geschützt sind, zusammen mit den Kindern.  Haustiere spielen da keine Rolle.


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## HON_Redakteur

dec-sev said:


> I see your point now, but I can't believe it that the difference between the English and German versions ("edlerly" in English and "Haustiere" in German) is due to a regional differences in mentality. What's wrong with pets in England? Do they eat dogs like Koreans?


 
Hi, dec-sev:

As I said above, the case at hand ("pets" / "elderly") is extreme / pathological - but it does reflect a true phenomenon of legitimate interest to translators.

Even within a single locality and language, enormous difficulties in understanding ("Verständnisschwierigkeiten") can arise when translating texts _*from different eras*_. How many times have other board members here submitted questions about texts dating back to the 19th Century, written in the exquisite, college-level High German of that time - and which are almost incomprehensible for modern Germans, simply b/c the _*realia*_ are no longer current?

Another example: Imagine a 14th-Century Persian noble, equipped with a good dictionary, or even an Internet connection, trying to translate a 1944 American High School Yearbook article about a successful Spring Sock Hop into 14th-Century Persian. He would be constantly stumped - simply b/c he couldn't believe that boys and girls that age were dancing _*together*_. He would insist that it must be a typographical error! Also, he would assume that the participants must all be of royal blood (to quote Monty Python's "Holy Grail": "Because they aren't covered in shit!").

Well, I've already gone on too long, here.

Best,


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## dec-sev

HON_Redakteur said:


> ...
> 
> Well, I've already gone on too long, here.
> 
> Best,


Long enough and deep enough  You example with a 14th century translator is a graphic one. I see your point. But it's a mere warning written on a grill and I don't think that cultural aspects should be taken into account to such extent in this particular case.


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## alogbe

Der Grill, der diese Diskussion verursachte, wurde vor einigen Jahren gekauft.  Ich habe gedacht, es wäre interessant zu wissen, ob es in der letzten Version irgendeine Änderung gibt, habe also auf Internet gesucht.  Und siehe da, in dem heutigen deutschen Informationsblatt für dieses Modell steht die neue Warnung:

_*Ihr Grill darf nicht von Kindern bedient werden.  Auch zugängliche Teile des Grills können sehr heiß sein. Halten Sie Kleinkinder vom Grill fern, während dieser in Gebrauch ist.  
*_
Nichts über ältere Personen.  Also darf ich jetzt auch in Deutschland grillen!

Scherz beiseite: es scheint mir nun durchaus möglich, daß es sich in der früheren Version tatsächlich um einen Fehler handelte.


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## el chapeador

Maybe the translator had a senior moment.


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