# ليس له ثمن



## Interprete

Hello,

In a 1001 Nights story, I found the phrase ليس له ثمن with the meaning of 'having no value/worthless'. Whenever I remember this phrase though I find it confusing because I'm always tempted to understand it as 'priceless' wich would be the opposite meaning.
As an aside, it's funny because the same confusing pattern seems to exist in English, with 'invaluable' which is the opposite of 'having no value', right?

So I was wondering if this phrase is still common in MSA, and if it always means 'having no value'?

Thanks

(ps: here's the sentence in which I found it, even though it probably won't help: مضى أبو قير إلى السوق فرآى النيلة وليس لها ثمن فاشترى جميع ما يحتاج إليه

Thank you very much.


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## Xence

The same is true for the French _inestimable_.

In MSA, I would rather say لا يُقدَّر بثمن.


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## Interprete

Thank you!
Yes but when you hear ليس له ثمن do you understand it as inestimable or as worthless? That was actually my question, sorry if it wasn't clear.


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## Xence

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

In the context of the above mentioned tale, I understand ليس له ثمن as _cost prohibitive _(FR : _hors de prix_). It has to do with expensiveness. In nowadays language, we would say سعر ملتهب or something like this.

But I may be wrong.


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## Interprete

Thank you, so this confirms my doubts. In the passage above, it actually means the opposite of what you understand (Abu Qir notices that indigo 'has no value' = is extremely cheap, so he buys lots of it). So I take it this is classical Arabic and is no longer used in MSA. Please correct me if I got it wrong.

Thank you!


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## Xence

All I can say is that to disambiguate this phrase ليس له ثمن is to comprehend correctly the context in which it's used. I personally don't know what was the price of the indigo dye at the time the tale is supposed to have occurred, but this would certainly help.


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## Bakr

Xence أتفق مع
ألف ليلة وليلة حكاية شفوية  وليست فصيحة حين قرأت السؤال
ليس له ثمن
ما المعنى : لا يساوي شيئا أم لا يقدر بثمن..المعنى في السياق ـ


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## Ibn Nacer

Is Arabic used in these tales is bad?

Est-ce que l'arabe utilisé dans ces contes est mauvais ?


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## Xence

Ibn Nacer said:


> Est-ce que l'arabe utilisé dans ces contes est mauvais ?



Le problème c'est que, d'abord, les textes sont une compilation de plusieurs versions orales étalées sur le temps. Ensuite, on peut constater une nette différence dans le style entre les textes provenant de la branche irakienne (du IXe au XIe siècles) et ceux de la branche égyptienne (du XIIe au XVIe siècles). Ces derniers sont nettement plus médiocres du point de vue stylistique et linguistique. Or, il se trouve justement que le conte de Abou Qir et Abou Sir, d'où est extraite la phrase dont il est question ici, fait partie des textes tardifs.


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## Ibn Nacer

Merci. Comment distinguer les deux sources ? Est-ce que les contes traduits en anglais (qu'on trouve dans ce site ici) proviennent de la branche irakienne ?

En fait je cherche à savoir lesquels je peux lire et lesquels je dois délaisser.


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## cherine

I think there is a difference between ليس له ثمن and لا يُقَدَّر بثمن. The first one, though not common, means that something is so cheap that it doesn't have a price, meaning that it's almost free. While لا يقدّر بثمن means invaluable = very pricey.

As for ألف ليلة وليلة, Ibn Nacer, it is commonly viewed as an intertaining text but not as a good source to learn or practice the language (especially MSA/fuS7a) because there's a lot of colloquial expressions in it.


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## Bakr

لا يمكن تفسير"ليس له ثمن" بـ "بخس" أو ما شابه..حتى لو كان تعبيرا غير شائع..ما هو السياق أو الجملة..لكي نحكم بأن هذا هو المعنى..فقد يكون المعنى "ما لا يقدر بثمن"..!ـ


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## abdulwahid

السياق هنا

http://alhaijah.blogspot.se/p/blog-page_5180.html


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## Bakr

بدأت أبحث عن :ـ
ليس له ثمن
بينما كان علي البحث عن :ـ
ليس لها ثمن
ودائما ما المعنى..!ـ


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## cherine

Bakr said:


> لا يمكن تفسير"ليس له ثمن" بـ "بخس" أو ما شابه..حتى لو كان تعبيرا غير شائع..ما هو السياق أو الجملة..لكي نحكم بأن هذا هو المعنى..فقد يكون المعنى "ما لا يقدر بثمن"..!ـ


You're right of course. The context was provided in the first post:


Interprete said:


> مضى أبو قير إلى السوق فرآى النيلة وليس لها ثمن فاشترى جميع ما يحتاج إليه


If the meaning was "priceless/expensive", I don't think he could've bought _all_ what he needed. It is because it's very cheap that he could do that.


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## Interprete

Exactly Cherine, and the whole story is actually that Abu Qir settles in a new city where everyone wears garments of the same color and no one ever had the idea of dying their clothes with indigo. So Abu Qir, coming from a place where indigo is used as a dye, checks whether indigo is also available in this city and finds that 'laysa laha thaman' and so buys everything he needs indigo-Wise, and starts marketing indigo-died clothes, and he soon becomes the richest man in the city.


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## Salim-F

haven't you Google "ليس له ثمن" here . this sentence depending context .specially words before it , either means "so cheap" - "worthless"  , or "has no price " - "priceless"
IN MSA have look on top Google result :-
"الحب ليس له ثمن"  deep descripe is  you can't sell love with any price , in short "love is priceless" .
"وإذا كان تعب مثلي _ليس له ثمن_... فمن أين أطعم الأولاد الصغار " Source meaning "if toil of some one like me have no price ... from where I feed the young childs"    
So in MSA "ليس له ثمن" propebly means pricless 
Back to the story , author means the sellers were not not asking price for the indigo so it up to the buyer (Abu Qir) , and let the reader undersand it was so cheap so he buy alot .


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