# Indo-European languages: Vocative case: Compulsory?



## arn00b

Compulsory is a strange word, but I used it for lack of a better one.  

Proto-Indo-European had a vocative case and some languages inherited this case.  (I don't really know if all inherited it or developed it later, but anyway)

1. In languages in which a vocative case exists, is the use of the vocative in "vocative" situations the only grammatical possibility? 
1B. Would using nominative in such a scenario, such as calling someone's name, be considered ungrammatical?  To use Serbo-Croatian as an example - calling Marija "Marija!" instead of "Marijo!" 

Serbo-Croatian has some exceptions for vocative in which nominative may be used (mama, teta, tata) or some male names with certain endings (Luka, Marko, Ivo), but that's not what I mean.   

I mean, are there (IE) languages in which the use of the vocative case is optional and the use of nominative acceptable?

Are there languages in which vocative exists but is used in a restricted sense, such as in really big, grandiose, epic usage?  For example, "Ivan, pass me the salt" would keep Ivan in nominative, but "Ivane! Our hero!"  "My country!  It's a shame I have but one life to give to thee!" would use the vocative.    So in these languages vocative does exist, but it is not used to call people to attention, but to address them.

Are there languages that would use vocative to call someone (hey, neighbor! Long time!) to catch their attention or to address them for the first time, but use nominative when addressing them again in the middle of the conversation "The problem here, David, is that we did not take these figures into consideration..."  

Are there languages that make exceptions for proper names, surnames, place names, etc?

Are there languages in which vocative is only used in familiar T-forms (tu, ty) but not in V-forms (vous, vy)?

---

The only examples I know are Kurdish, which has vocative but is not obligatory, and Polish, which, according to Wikipedia uses vocative in certain cases (addressing someone's title: "doktorze!," after adjectives, demonstrative and possessive pronouns: "moja droga Basiu!" (my dear Basia), to address someone in an offensive manner "Spadaj, idioto!" (get lost, idiot), after "ty" (you) - ty kłamczuchu (you liar) and in affectionate uses.

But, Polish can use both vocative and nominative for "Annie, come here" - "Ania, chodź tu!" and "Aniu, chodź tu!" 

So Polish has vocative, but it is not obligatory in every single case.  The exceptions are usage-based, not because of awkwardness of the inflection (Luka, Marko in BCS).

Are there other languages that have a non-universal vocative?


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## Ben Jamin

I can give you some information about Polish.
1. The use of category "compulsory" or "obligatory" has not much sense in the case of the Polish vocative case. We can only speak about usage that can vary, depending on the register of speech, situation, and context.
2. The vocative case in Polish is in the stage of regression, that is it will disappear in future, even if nobody knows when. I suppose that this prosess started somewhere in the XIX century, even if the cases of using nominative instead of vocative might have ocurred earlier.
3. The use of vocative is regarded as a good usage in the "higher" registers of speech (oral and literature).
4. The use of vocative may be regarded as too "elevated" and avoided by some people in colloquial speech, especially among children, young people, people with little education, tough guys.
5. The vocative causes trouble for bureaucrats, because they often don't know how and when to use it.
6.The examples you quote are quite correct, even if I would be careful with too much generalizing.
I would add that adressing people formally with "Panie" is always followed by a name or a title in vocative:
panie dyrektorze!, panie Stanisławie!, panie kolego!. This applies also to feminine adressees, but only if their title has a feminine form (pani kierowniczko!), but if the feminine form does not exist (like prezydent) or is avoided (like dyrektorka) a nominative form is used: pani prezydent!, pani dyrektor!. However, using a masculine title in nominative after "panie" can be perceived as derogatory or uneducated.

7. The use of vocative case with first names varies depending on the tone of conversation. The vocative form is always softer and more polite. The nominative is usually used when you want to reprimand somebody harshly.
Certain first names are more often used in vocative form than others, depending on the custom.
8. Surnames in adjective form have no vocative form (Kowalski, Długi, Nieuważny).
9. Surnames in substantive form can form a vocative, but using it is avoided. It can be used for humorous purposes (panie Nowaku!).
NOTE: In Czech the surname in vocative is normal (pane Novaku!) as far as I know.

Summing up, one could write a paper of 50 pages about the issue, but vocative is a *slowly *disappearing form, preferred in more elevated usage, but only a few firm rules can be detected.
.


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## arn00b

Thank you for your answer.   So, if I get this right, the vocative/nominative use is less of a duality than it is of the slow disappearance of the vocative case.  Is this a correct assessment?  

I have one more question, or set of questions, if you don't mind.   

What is the status of vocative in lyrics and poetry?  When singing a song to Anna, for example, addressing her ("Where were you, Anna, all this time? etc"), is the vocative used?

Is using the nominative permissible when addressing someone in lyrics?   You mentioned register, which I hadn't considered.)   You say that it might be too elevated and avoided by some - so is there a nominative/vocative split along the lines of rock/punk/rap music on one hand and higher register art music/poetry on the other?  

In high/more formal arts where good usage means that vocative is expected, can nominative be used for the sake of rhyme and not sound off/out of place?  So keeping Ania as "Ania" for the -nia rhyme.    Artistic license says "yes, artists can do anything" but does it work stylistically or will that line sound odd at best and "street" at worst?

For those curious, BCS has that flexibility of keeping things in nominative for rhymes, at least in popular music:

The band Bajaga: 

"Tamara, čekanje me strašno zamara.
Bele noći vetar šamara,
A tebe nema."

The band Magazin:

"Tamara, Tamara 
koga si noćas varala...
...
Tamara, Tamara 
za kim si noćas plakala.."


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## fdb

Both in Greek and Latin the nominative is often used where we expect the vocative. This is a common syntactic feature in Greek, and it is probably a Graecism in Latin. In some Latin words, the nominative eventually replaced the vocative altogether, e.g. in puer, older puere (Plautus, As. 2, 3, 2; 5, 2, 42; id. Most. 4, 2, 32 et saep. acc. to Lewis/Short). In other instances the two forms can be used interchangeably.


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## Ben Jamin

arn00b said:


> Thank you for your answer.   So, if I get this right, the vocative/nominative use is less of a duality than it is of the slow disappearance of the vocative case.  Is this a correct assessment?
> 
> I have one more question, or set of questions, if you don't mind.



What is the status of vocative in lyrics and poetry?  When singing a song to Anna, for example, addressing her ("Where were you, Anna, all this time? etc"), is the vocative used?
_Maybe in punk and rap, yes, not in "classical" song lyrics. As said before, nominative is a brisker version._ 

Is using the nominative permissible when addressing someone in lyrics?   You mentioned register, which I hadn't considered.)   You say that it might be too elevated and avoided by some - so is there a nominative/vocative split along the lines of rock/punk/rap music on one hand and higher register art music/poetry on the other? 
_See the answer above_.

In high/more formal arts where good usage means that vocative is expected, can nominative be used for the sake of rhyme and not sound off/out of place?  So keeping Ania as "Ania" for the -nia rhyme.    Artistic license says "yes, artists can do anything" but does it work stylistically or will that line sound odd at best and "street" at worst?
_"Licentia poetica" allows many divergences, also the one you describe._


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## Dib

Sanskrit:

In Classical Sanskrit, usage of vocatives was generally strictly adhered to by the authors. However, in the earliest extant Vedic literature - which is all religious hymns - there exist some deviations:
- When two vocatives appear connected by "ca" (and), the second vocative is often replaced by a nominative.
- On the other hand, predicative nominative complements to 2nd person subjects could sometimes be replaced by a vocative.


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## Panceltic

In Bulgarian, vocative for feminine names is avoided, as far as I know. It sounds vulgar and pejorative.

In Slovenian, there is no vocative, we use the nominative. The word "oče" (father) is derived from the vocative case (_*otьče_) of Proto-Slavic _*otьcь_, though.

Also some people say "sine!" to their sons, but I'm not sure if this isn't just borrowed from BCS.


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## Karton Realista

Something about names in Polish in non-formal speech. 
Masculine:
- normal names - nominative (Krzysztof) 
- dimunitives ending on a consonant - nominative (Krzysiek) 
- dimunitives ending on a vowel/ś- vocative (Krzysio - - - > Krzysiu) 
Feminine:
-normal names - nominative, I guess? Names like Katarzyna, Anna, Zofia, Małgorzata, etc. aren't used in informal situations almost at all
- dimunitives ending on - ka (Zośka) - always nominative 
- dimunitives ending differently - pretty much always vocative (Zosia - - - > Zosiu).


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## Ben Jamin

Karton Realista said:


> Feminine:
> -normal names - *nominative, I guess?* Names like Katarzyna, Anna, Zofia, Małgorzata, etc. *aren't used in informal *situations almost at all


This sentence is self contradictory.


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## Karton Realista

Ben Jamin said:


> This sentence is self contradictory.


Not really. The usage of full feminine names in informal situations is rare. Therefore technically it would be nominative, but in practice none.
"*almost* at all".


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## apmoy70

fdb said:


> Both in Greek and Latin the nominative is often used where we expect the vocative. This is a common syntactic feature in Greek, and it is probably a Graecism in Latin. In some Latin words, the nominative eventually replaced the vocative altogether, e.g. in puer, older puere (Plautus, As. 2, 3, 2; 5, 2, 42; id. Most. 4, 2, 32 et saep. acc. to Lewis/Short). In other instances the two forms can be used interchangeably.


That's still a feature in MoGr but it's considered a colloquialism (if not soldier-coined slang, influencing everyday language; the common way soldiers addressing each other is by using surnames, and the nominative case instead of the vocative i.e. *«Παπαδόπουλος!»* [papaˈðopulos] (nominative) instead of *«Παπαδόπουλε!»* [papaˈðopule] (vocative)).


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## Ben Jamin

Karton Realista said:


> Therefore technically it would be nominative, but in practice none.


This is an interesting statement. How can you infer a rule if you have a zero population of observable cases?
It would be more straightforward to answer: "not used", or "never heard".


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## Ben Jamin

Karton Realista said:


> Feminine:
> - dimunitives ending on - ka (Zośka) - always nominative
> - dimunitives ending differently - pretty much always vocative (Zosia - - - > Zosiu).


Well observed! I would add that there are at least three classes of feminine diminutives:
Basic: Zofia-> Zosia
Rough: Zofia-> Zośka
Enhanced: Zosia-> Zosieńka
While Zośka can be heardly ever used in the vocative (except licentia poetica), and Zosieńka heardly ever addressed in the nominative, Zosia can be used in both cases.


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## bibax

In Czech the use of the vocative is *"compulsory"* (with some very special exceptions).

_nom. - voc._
otec - otče (father)
syn - synu (son)
Pavel - Pavle (Paul)
Josef, Pepík - Josefe, Pepíku (Joseph, Joe/Sepp)
idiot - idiote
pianista - pianisto
president - presidente
žena - ženo (woman, wife)
pianistka - pianistko (female pianist)
presidentka - presidentko
Anna, Anička - Anno, Aničko (Ann, Annie)
Ježíš Kristus (Old Czech Ježúš) - Ježíši Kriste (Old Czech voc. Ježúšu)
Pán Bůh - Pane Bože (Lord God)
můj domov - můj domove (my home)
moje domovina - moje domovino (my homeland)
Litva, moje vlast - Litvo, moje vlasti! (Lithuania! My fatherland! _Pol._ Litwo! Ojczyzno moja! - _Mickiewicz: Pan Tadeusz_)

The use of the nominative case instead of the vocative is considered rude and derogatory. In the past the nominativ was often used by the members of the upper class or bourgeoisie to address their servants and maids:

Obléknou se, *Mařenka* (instead of voc. Mařenko)! Už jsem hotov. _(Dress yourself, Mary! I am already finished.)_

Nowadays - as we have neither lords nor servants in our country - we use the nominative in the jokes about the lords:

- *Žán* (instead of voc. Žáne), přinesl mi piáno! _(Jean, bring me the piano!)_
- Jeho Lordstvo bude hrát? _(His Lordship will be playing?)_
- Ne, mám na něm doutník. _(No, I have a cigar on it.)_

Like in Greece the nominative is also used in the military:

*Čermák!* instead of voc. Čermáku! (esp. if Čermák is a low rank soldier, a private)


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## Lugubert

Vocative is dead in Swedish. One exception: In the standard dialect of Gothenburg, there's a 2nd p. sing. pronoun vocative, written "Dô", pronounced [dœ] (the d is almost retroflex). People from other parts of Sweden often find calling for somebody's attention by using dô, vulgar.


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