# pride and arrogance



## scotu

In the culture of my youth *pride* was considered a positive thing and *arrogance* was a negative thing; Is this true today in your culture? 

Or are pride and arrogance really the same thing?

scotu


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## cuchuflete

Hi Scotu,

Do your uses of these words correspond fully, or somewhat, with these dictionary definitions?


*Pride:

*a feeling of self-respect and personal worth  
satisfaction with your (or another's) achievements; "he takes pride in his son's success"  
the trait of being spurred on by a dislike of falling below your standards  
a group of lions  
unreasonable and inordinate self-esteem (personified as one of the deadly sins)  
be proud of; "He prides himself on making it into law school"  
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

1.a high or inordinate opinion of one's own dignity, importance, merit, or superiority, whether as cherished in the mind or as displayed in bearing, conduct, etc.   2.the state or feeling of being proud.   3.a becoming or dignified sense of what is due to oneself or one's position or character; self-respect; self-esteem.   4.pleasure or satisfaction taken in something done by or belonging to oneself or believed to reflect credit upon oneself: civic pride.source: Random House Unabridged, as displayed at dictionary.com



A sense of one's own proper dignity or value; self-respect.
Pleasure or satisfaction taken in an achievement, possession, or association: _parental pride._
Arrogant or disdainful conduct or treatment; haughtiness.
American Heritage Dict.


a feeling of pleasure or satisfaction that you get when you or people who are connected with you have done sth well or own sth that other people admire

Oxford Advanced Learner's Dict.
​*Arrogance:

*the behaviour of a person when they feel that they are more important than other people, so that they are rude to them or do not consider them

Oxford ALD


offensive display of superiority or self-importance; overbearing pride. 

Random House



​


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## Nomesy

scotu said:


> In the culture of my youth *pride* was considered a positive thing and *arrogance* was a negative thing; Is this true today in your culture?
> 
> Or are pride and arrogance really the same thing?
> 
> scotu


Arrogance is the dark side of pride, in the general point of view.

Pride isn't exactly a negative thing, though it tends to generate arrogance, and everyone knows that, though most people fall into arrogance thinking :yeah, I know, but this is different, it's not arrogance, it's just I can't/don't want to be bothered with this, I think it's a waste of my time to pay any attention (at least that's the case for me). So have some pride, but try to harden the wall between pride and arrogance.

*First post!


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## scotu

Hi chuchu, Thanks for helping me focus on the meanings of the two words. I like this particular definition as it seems to say that in some aspects pride and arrogance are synonyms and partially answers the second part of my question. It also focuses on the meat of my question which is at what point do dignity and self respect become arrogant, where's the line between the two?





cuchuflete said:


> ,Definition of pride:
> 
> A sense of one's own proper dignity or value; self-respect.(good?)
> Pleasure or satisfaction taken in an achievement, possession, or association: _parental pride._
> Arrogant or disdainful conduct or treatment; haughtiness. (bad?)
> American Heritage Dict.​


Hi, Nomesy, welcome to the forum. Thank you for your contribution.

scotu​


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## Etcetera

scotu said:


> In the culture of my youth *pride* was considered a positive thing and *arrogance* was a negative thing; Is this true today in your culture?


It's definitely true in my opinion. 

However, I'm not sure that it's so in my culture in the whole. Pride is something which arises from individualism (so it seems to me), and in Russia, individualism had long been considered almost "bad".


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## alexacohen

scotu said:


> In the culture of my youth *pride* was considered a positive thing and *arrogance* was a negative thing; Is this true today in your culture?
> 
> scotu


 
Yes, it is so in Spain too. There's nothing wrong with pride, unless you are proud of the wrong achievement.


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## Outsider

Pride (_orgulho_) and arrogance (_arrogância_) are often treated as near synonyms in Portugal. It's not that you can't distinguish them -- arrogance is always a negative thing, unlike pride -- but one thing I've noticed is that Americans say much more frequently that they are "proud" of something than us.

Also, this being a Catholic country, pride is technically one of the seven deadly sins.


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## scotu

Outsider said:


> one thing I've noticed is that Americans say much more frequently that they are "proud" of something than *us*.


 
Does *us* mean Portuguese or Europeans?

Yes Americans are fond of saying "I'm proud to be American" This has always struck me as strange...How can one be proud of something that, for most, is inherited by accident?


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## Outsider

scotu said:


> Yes Americans are fond of saying "I'm proud to be American"


Oh, but not just that! Proud of your children, proud of having done this or that, proud that someone you know did this or that... 

"Us" means the Portuguese, to the best of my knowledge. According to Alexacohen above, it's different in Spain.


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## ernest_

scotu said:


> Or are pride and arrogance really the same thing?



No.


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## scotu

Outsider said:


> Oh, but not just that! Proud of your children, proud of having done this or that, proud that someone you know did this or that...


When I state that "I'm proud of my children." Maybe I'm saying that my children are better than your children, or maybe I'm just hinting that I'm a great parent and my wonderful children are proof of that?

(that being said I don´t think anyone should ever pass up an opportunity to let their children know that you are proud of them.)


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## alexacohen

scotu said:


> When I state that "I'm proud of my children." Maybe I'm saying that my children are better than your children,


 
Gosh, no. When a mother says "I'm proud of my child" it should mean that she is glad that her child has achieved something, but just for the child's sake. If she is making a comparison and finds the other children worse than hers, then it's the wrong kind of pride.


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## LALO1968

Hi scotu. I think you are right. "Pride" is always used in a positive meaning and "arrogance" means somethings bad...
I agree with you.


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## LALO1968

Therefore, pride an arrogance mean very different things...


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## scotu

Outsider said:


> Also, this being a Catholic country, pride is technically one of the seven deadly sins.


 
That's curious; If pride is a good thing then why is it a "deadly sin"?


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## LALO1968

Religious context is a very different point.... it could change some things...


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## brian mc

Nomesy said:


> Arrogance is the dark side of pride, in the general point of view.


Yes, arrogance is to pride what jealousy is to admiration... I think.


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## alexacohen

scotu said:


> That's curious; If pride is a good thing then why is it a "deadly sin"?


 
Er... what's a deadly sin?
Sounds like Harry Potter's three unforgivable curses.


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## etabetapi

alexacohen said:


> Er... what's a deadly sin?
> Sounds like Harry Potter's three unforgivable curses.


 
I shall resist asking what the 3 unforgivable curses are 

"Deadly sins" are human weaknesses we must resist so that we won't end up in Hell.

See the website http://deadlysins.com/

Oh yeah! I can post URL now!!


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## EmilyD

There is a *Yiddish* concept of familial, joyful, healthy *pride*:  *naches *(o najes?).

I don't know if the word derives from German (or Hebrew, Russian, Polish, Lithuanian, et cetera), but it doesn't translate well into English.

It is closer to _orgullo_, I think.

When my friend (who is like a brother to me) received his doctorate degree, I felt *naches...

*_Nomi_


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## alexacohen

EmilyD said:


> There is a *Yiddish* concept of familial, joyful, healthy *pride*: *naches *(o najes?).
> 
> I don't know if the word derives from German (or Hebrew, Russian, Polish, Lithuanian, et cetera), but it doesn't translate well into English.
> 
> When my friend (who is like a brother to me) received his doctorate degree, I felt *naches...*
> 
> _Nomi_


 
Yes, that's it. And it's a good thing.


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## scotu

EmilyD said:


> When my friend (who is like a brother to me) received his doctorate degree, I felt *naches...*_i_


 
I think there may be a distinction between "being proud" of someone else's actions and "taking pride" for someone else´s actions. Being proud is more like  being gratified, thrilled or, delighted all appropiate emotions for the accomplishments of someone else (*naches *??). Pride has more to do with you, your ego, self-satisfaction, or self-worth. I trust that you were proud of your brother,  not of yourself,  for his accomplishments.

scotu


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## divisortheory

etabetapi said:


> "Deadly sins" are human weaknesses we must resist so that we won't end up in Hell.


 
According to some religious beliefs.


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## scotu

etabetapi said:


> "Deadly sins" are human weaknesses we must resist so that we won't end up in Hell.


 
The seven deadly sins as outlined in Dante´s epic poem The Divine Comedy are also known in the Catholic Church as the capital vices or cardinal sins. According to Catholic dogma, you "won't end up in hell" if you confess or resolve your sin.
Pride is considered to be the worst of the seven sins (Pride. Envy. Wrath, Gluttony, Lust, Sloth and Greed) because each of the others can be included in the idea of pride. 
(_Pride in this context = vanity; a desire to be important or attractive to others or excessive love of self)_ 

But discussing pride-as-a-sin takes this thread on an unintended deviation which I would like to avoid.
scotu


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## alexacohen

scotu said:


> I think there may be a distinction between "being proud" of someone else's actions and "taking pride" for someone else´s actions. Being proud is more like being gratified, thrilled or, delighted all appropiate emotions for the accomplishments of someone else (*naches *??). Pride has more to do with you, your ego, self-satisfaction, or self-worth.
> scotu


 
No, not self satisfaction, but delight that someone you love has achieved what he or she thrived to do. Something like it.


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## scotu

alexacohen said:


> No, not self satisfaction, but delight that someone you love has achieved what he or she thrived to do. Something like it.


 
I certainly agree than pride _for someone else_ is a good thing. I know that we commonly accept the word pride in this sense. 

My (Thread) question relates more to pride in yourself. Is self-pride a good thing? Is it the same as self-respect? or is it the same as arrogance?

scotu


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## alexacohen

Scotu, I'm afraid that what I think would be just my personal opinion. When I was at school we were taught that pride was good, that if you worked hard and achieved something it was right to be proud of yourself. But never because someone else had failed to achieve what you had (that would be the wrong kind of pride).
I don't think it is the same thing as arrogance. Arrogance means you feel superior to others for whatever the reason.


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## scotu

alexacohen said:


> Scotu, I'm afraid that what I think would be just my personal opinion. When I was at school we were taught that pride was good, that if you worked hard and achieved something it was right to be proud of yourself.
> Yes, I learned the same thing growing up.
> 
> But never because someone else had failed to achieve what you had
> But one could argue that pride is basically quiet gloating over having achieved more than others. (that would be the wrong kind of pride).
> 
> I don't think it is the same thing as arrogance. Arrogance means you feel superior to others for whatever the reason.
> When one has accomplished more than others isn't it natural to feel a little superior?


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## Etcetera

Outsider said:


> Also, this being a Catholic country, pride is technically one of the seven deadly sins.


Not pride, but arrogance.


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## scotu

Etcetera said:


> Not pride, but arrogance.


I think outsider has it right with pride, (from Latin; superbia) Vanity also works but "arrogance" would not be consistent with Dante's definition which was "love of self and contempt for one's neighbor." Arrogance would be the outward manifestation of this idea of pride.

scotu


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## Outsider

The Catholic Encyclopedia uses the word "pride". Please note that I was not referring to Orthodox Christianity.


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## Woland

The Orthodox Churh also considers ''pride'' to be a sin. The Orthodox Church recommends godliness(smerenie in Romanian language) and compassion(milostenie)


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## alexacohen

Hello again:
I've checked the seven deadly sins, as etabetapi suggested, but in Spanish. And "pride" (orgullo) isn't listed as a deadly sin.
In Spanish they are:
*Lujuria* (lust, I don't get this one either, a deadly sin??? ), *Gula* (gluttony), *Avaricia* (greed), *Pereza* (laziness), *Ira *(wrath), *Envidia* ((envy) and *Soberbia* (arrogance).

I don't want this thread to end in a religious discussion (I'd get lost, for one).
But perhaps the answer is that being proud is OK and being too proud is not.
Same as eating is OK but eating till you can't is bad. Or drinking a cocktail is _O_K and binge drinking is not.


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## scotu

I looked up *Soberbia* in the WR dictionary and in RAE. I find "_orgullo_" but do not find "_arrogante_" in those definitions of _soberia_. I assume that _soberia_ stems from the Latin *superbia* which is pride*. *I think that (in the religious context) pride is the sin and arrogance is merely an outward manisfestation of pride. 

But my question has nothing to do with religion or sin (sin is itself a religious (Christian / catholic) concept. I did think it was interesting that within the Cristian philosophy, pride is considered a bad thing (a sin)

http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltConsulta?TIPO_BUS=3&LEMA=Soberbia


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## alexacohen

Mine says:
*soberbia*. f. Elación de ánimo y apetito desordenado de ser preferido a otros. *2* Satisfacción y desvanecimiento en contemplación de las propias prendas con menosprecio de las de los demás. *3* Exceso en la magnificiencia, suntuosidad o pompa, especialmente hablando de los edificios. *4* Cólera o ira expresadas con acciones descompuestas o palabras altivas e injuriosas.
*arrogancia*. f. Calidad de arrogante. SIN. _soberbia_.

We aren't using the same dictionary!!!


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## Outsider

alexacohen said:


> We aren't using the same dictionary!!!


Indeed. I'm pretty sure that Scotu went to look in a Latin dictionary.


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## scotu

Well if some dictionaries say "pride" and some say "arrogance" Maybe that just means that pride and arrogance are pretty close to the same thing.

I note that most dictionaries give "humility" as the antonym of both pride and arrogance.


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## mirx

scotu said:


> Well if some dictionaries say "pride" and some say "arrogance" Maybe that just means that pride and arrogance are pretty close to the same thing.
> 
> I note that most dictionaries give "humility" as the antonym of both pride and arrogance.


 
Well, I think they are very closely related but I think pride is something that keeps you motivated, while arrogance is more like something you project onto others in a bad way. It has nothing to do with motivation or keeping a positive attitude.

I´ve met many proud people who don't have the least bit of arrogance.


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## scotu

Ok so let me put it another way.... If humility is the opposite of pride, and pride is good then is humility bad? 

scotu


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## Etcetera

Woland said:


> The Orthodox Churh also considers ''pride'' to be a sin. The Orthodox Church recommends godliness(smerenie in Romanian language) and compassion(milostenie)


"Pride" isn't a sin. 
In Russian, there are two related words, гордость and гордыня. The first is usually translated into English as 'pride', the second as 'arrogance'. And the second is listed in the Bible as one of the seven sins.


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## scotu

Etcetera said:


> "Pride" isn't a sin.
> In Russian, there are two related words, гордость and гордыня. The first is usually translated into English as 'pride', the second as 'arrogance'. And the second is listed in the Bible as one of the seven sins.


 
I confess that I'm not much of a bible student, but I don't think that there is any reference anywhere in the bible to the seven deadly sins, please let me know if I am wrong.


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## Cnaeius

In italian, as in spanish, the capital sin is "superbia". And "superbia" is different from "orgoglio". The first one is always negative, the second can be positive. Moreover "superbia" is slightly different from "arroganza". It seems there is a mismatch in the translation into English, as I undestand that "pride" is not necessarily a positive or negative feature.


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## Outsider

I guess we'd have to look into the Greek text...


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## scotu

Etcetera said:


> "Pride" isn't a sin.
> In Russian, there are two related words, гордость and гордыня. The first is usually translated into English as 'pride', the second as 'arrogance'. And the second is listed in the Bible as one of the seven sins.


 
I did a little research, an found 13 sins, pride was one of them but arrogance was not.  Mark 7:20-24

I also came across these references which contain both pride and arrogance in the same verse:

All who fear the Lord will hate evil. That is why I hate *pride, arrogance*, corruption, and perverted speech. Pro 8:3

The *arrogance* of all people will be brought low. Their *pride* will lie in the dust. The Lord alone will be exalted! Isa 2:17


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## Outsider

...and the Hebrew text.


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## alexacohen

Outsider said:


> ...and the Hebrew text.


 
Well, you will not find seven deadly sins in it  .  But I think it is useless to check on Bibles. The translations vary so much from one another that we would soon be throwing bibles at one another .


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## Outsider

That's the beauty of looking at the original text: you don't need to worry about the inaccuracy of translations.


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## HUMBERT0

I think English confuses Orgullo (pride) with Soberbia (arrogance) . Nowhere in the Spanish text mentions orgullo; soberbia and altivez it's mentioned.

  RVR (Reina Valera 1960) 

  Pr 8:13 “El temor de Jehová es aborrecer el mal;
   La *soberbia *y la *arrogancia*, el mal camino, 
  Y la boca perversa aborrezco”

  Is 2:17 “La *altivez* del hombre será abatida, y la *soberbia* de los hombres será humillada; y solo Jehová será exaltado en aquel día.

  In Spanish we use soberbia, altivez, arrogancia, altaneria in a negative way and orgullo in a positive way, though sometimes orgullo is used to suggest that it's sliding into arrogance “Tu orgullo no te deja aceptarlo”, “Eres muy orgulloso”.


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## scotu

I was just about to come to the conclusion that "pride is bad" is a christian religious thing, but I looked it up in the Koran and it seems like there are problems with pride in this faith also. 



> [2.206] And when it is said to him, guard against (the punish ment of) Allah; pride carries him off to sin, therefore hell is sufficient for him; and certainly it is an evil resting place.


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## robbie_SWE

scotu said:


> In the culture of my youth *pride* was considered a positive thing and *arrogance* was a negative thing; Is this true today in your culture?
> 
> Or are pride and arrogance really the same thing?
> 
> scotu


 
I personally don't believe that they are the same thing. "Pride" is for me an acceptable part of human character. If a person believes that the things he or she does are better than anybody else's, why not feel pride? "Arrogance" is nevertheless unacceptable. 

But if I take in consideration the cultural aspects, these things tend to be a bit different. 

In Sweden pride and arrogance are "unwritten" sins (_Jante-lagen_; a subconscious cultural law telling you, that you are and never will be anything and that you never will be better than anybody else). Taking this in consideration it's a bit taboo to take pride of something that you do. This is however changing in modern-day Sweden. 



> The Orthodox Churh also considers ''pride'' to be a sin. The Orthodox Church recommends godliness(smerenie in Romanian language ; *umilinţă *is a more comon term) and compassion (milostenie ; *compasiune*)


 
Even if Romania is considered to be a religious country, I have never really seen the Romanian people through that light. Pride is something that people seek, while arrogance is something barred. 

 robbie


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## scotu

robbie_SWE said:


> I personally don't believe that they are the same thing. "Pride" is for me an acceptable part of human character. If a person believes that the things he or she does are better than anybody else's, why not feel pride? "Arrogance" is nevertheless unacceptable.


 
But where is the line between pride (acceptable) and arrogance (unacceptable)? At what point does pride become arrogance?


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## alexacohen

Hi again, Scotu.
Acceptable is when Ms. Flowery looks at her beautiful garden and feels proud of its beauty.
Unacceptable would be if she rejoiced that her neighbour's garden is dead.

It's hard for me to explain, but when one starts comparing, and despising.


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## robbie_SWE

alexacohen said:


> Hi again, Scotu.
> Acceptable is when Ms. Flowery looks at her beautiful garden and feels proud of its beauty.
> Unacceptable would be if she rejoiced that her neighbour's garden is dead.
> 
> It's hard for me to explain, but when one starts comparing, and despising.


 
It's like telepathy Alexacohen!  You summarized my thoughts precisely. 

 robbie


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## Etcetera

alexacohen said:


> Hi again, Scotu.
> Acceptable is when Ms. Flowery looks at her beautiful garden and feels proud of its beauty.
> Unacceptable would be if she rejoiced that her neighbour's garden is dead.
> 
> It's hard for me to explain, but when one starts comparing, and despising.


Oh, you explained it brilliantly, in my opinion.


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## scotu

alexacohen said:


> Unacceptable would be if she rejoiced that her neighbour's garden is dead.


 
I agree, clearly unacceptable, but your example deals with an extreme that goes far beyond arrogance. To rejoice in another's misfortune is not arrogant it is sociopathic. 

If Mrs F. looks at her garden and thinks: 
"I've got the prettiest garden in the city"
"Nobody has a better garden than I do"
"I'm a far better gardener than my neighbor"
"Nobody is a better gardener than I."
"I must be perfect because I've created a perfect garden"

Has she at any point, crossed the line between pride and arrogance with any of these thoughts?


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## alexacohen

Scotu, it's hard enough to try to explain what I mean in Spanish. Let alone in a language that is not my own.

I don't like any of Mrs. F. phrases. I think she has crossed the line in each and every one of them.The only acceptable one would be:
"I've worked so hard. I've planted, and projected, and I've slaved all spring. But all my hard work pays. It is so beautiful".


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## scotu

alexacohen said:


> Scotu, it's hard enough to try to explain what I mean in Spanish. Let alone in a language that is not my own.
> 
> I don't like any of Mrs. F. phrases. I think she has crossed the line in each and every one of them.The only acceptable one would be:
> "I've worked so hard. I've planted, and projected, and I've slaved all spring. But all my hard work pays. It is so beautiful".


 
Thank you alexa, you are a real trooper in being so patient with my trying to sort this out, I appreciate your help. Your English is so good that I didn't realize that it is not your native language.

scotu


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## alexacohen

Thank you, Scotu.
The trouble with me is that half the time I miss the implications of what I say, and I end up being as clear as mud.

I see the difference very clearly in my mind, but that does not mean I can explain it!


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## JamesM

Using Mrs. F, I'd say that if Mrs. F thinks she has the prettiest garden around, she is justifiably proud of her garden. If she then proceeds to tell everyone around her how to grow a perfect garden like hers, she has passed over into arrogance. 

To me, healthy pride is an internal comparison of your own standards to your own accomplishments. Arrogance is the expectation that everyone else should share the same high opinion of yourself and your accomplishments that you do.


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## tinlizzy

Healthy pride (to borrow from James) is figuring out a course for yourself on your own, arrogance is not believing others that you're headed in the wrong direction, pride is realizing you were wrong and stubbornly marching ahead, despite the fact that it is the wrong direction.

Most people who need to be rescued are examples of arrogance and pride.


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## scotu

I was invited to dinner yesterday, one of the guests was an ex priest. Since it was on my mind I introduced a discussion on the pride/arrogance thing. He told me that in catholic theology, pride is considered a sin because pride is taking taking personal credit insrtead of giving credit to God. According to him arrogance is thinking that youself, and not god is responsible for your accomplishments. Humility is the opposite, that is giving god the credit for all that is good in your life. So I asked; if a person doesn't believe there is a god is it ok to accept the pride yourself? His reply was God doesn't care whether you believe in him or not. And that a sin (like pride)only exists in an individual's relationship to god. In other words if you have no relation to god you cannot sin. (I have to think about this for awhile)


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## alexacohen

I'm lost with the priest's reasoning, Scotu. It looks to me like sort of twisted.
A transgression is a transgression, whether you believe in God or not.


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## Estiben

scotu said:


> ... Humility is the opposite, that is giving god the credit for all that is good in your life. ...


 
I would be very sceptical about the opinion of an ex-priest on Catholic theology. In my 'humble' opinion, humility is not the opposite of pride. Humility simply means to hold an accurate assessment of yourself. A large part of the culture I live in seems confused about pride and arrogance. Surely pride is a good thing, how far would we get with no pride in ourselves or our accomplishments?

Got to go, my lunch break is over.


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## birus

scotu said:


> Yes Americans are fond of saying "I'm proud to be American" This has always struck me as strange...How can one be proud of something that, for most, is inherited by accident?


Several fashionable clothes/caps sold in italian shops bear a small label on them, saying "Crafted in the U.S. with pride".
I often found that quite disturbing and I guess the majority of italians that are able to understand the meaning of those words share the same feeling.
So at least, I think other people's pride is most of times felt as a negative sentiment by (the) neighbours.
I hope that this is not OT.


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