# Χτες - από χτες



## Raakajaska

EasyGreek episode. A phrase is translated we’d bought some (refering to youghurt) yesterday:
Είχαμε αγοράσει από χτες 

Why από? Wouldn’t είχαμε αγοράσει χτες be enough? Or is από acting like ”ne” in italian? Like we had bought ”some of it” yesterday?

Thanks in advance
Juha


----------



## Perseas

I think it's similar to "since yesterday" or "from yesterday" vs "yesterday".


----------



## velisarius

If you are talking about something that happened earlier today, "

- We ate cold pizza for lunch today.
- Did you go out this morning to buy pizza?
- No. We (had already) bought some yesterday".


----------



## Raakajaska

Oh I see. So it would be fine also without από?


----------



## sotos

The "από" gives emphasis to the meaning "we were prepared".


----------



## Helleno File

Very interesting question Raakajaska!


sotos said:


> The "από" gives emphasis to the meaning "we were prepared".


I would have thought είχαμε αγοράσει would convey that.


----------



## Perseas

Raakajaska said:


> Oh I see. So it would be fine also without από?


"από χθες" signifies that the consequences of "είχαμε αγοράσει" are relevant to another subsequent point in time.
"χθες" just refers to the point of the verb's action, i.e. yesterday.


----------



## διαφορετικός

Perseas said:


> "από χθες" signifies that the consequences of "είχαμε αγοράσει" are relevant to another subsequent point in time.


Consequently does it have a similar meaning as the παρακείμενος (as opposed to υπερσυντέλικος), so that the "από" in "έχουμε αγοράσει από χθες" would be needless or even excess?


----------



## Perseas

διαφορετικός said:


> Consequently does it have a similar meaning as the παρακείμενος (as opposed to υπερσυντέλικος), so that the "από" in "έχουμε αγοράσει από χθες" would be needless or even excess?


In παρακείμενος "από" is necessary if you use the adverb "χθες": "Έχουμε αγοράσει από χθές"  
Αlso, I think "έχουμε αγοράσει από χθές" is more appropriate than "είχαμε αγοράσει από χθες".


----------



## διαφορετικός

I had forgotten that one should not use temporal adverbial phrases with the παρακείμενος ... but it seems that this rule does not apply if one adds "από". Do you agree?


----------



## Perseas

διαφορετικός said:


> I had forgotten that one should not use temporal adverbial phrases with the παρακείμενος ... but it seems that this rule does not apply if one adds "από". Do you agree?


Παρακείμενος describes an action that is completed in the past but whose consequences are relevant to the present. 
"από + a point in time like χθες" expresses a timespan which begins "yesterday". So there is no problem.


----------



## διαφορετικός

I see, "από χθες" means a real timespan indeed.
So "έχω αγοράσει από χθες" does not mean "I have bought yesterday", but "I have bought since yesterday" ("any time in the timespan from yesterday to now"), does it?


----------



## Perseas

διαφορετικός said:


> I see, "από χθες" means a real timespan indeed.
> So "έχω αγοράσει από χθες" [... ]  ("any time in the timespan from yesterday to now"), does it?


Actually no, it means yesterday. I meant to say that the usage of "από χθες" contrary to "χθες" is very idiomatic, when you have the present perfect given the function of that tense: _describes an action that is completed in the past but whose consequences are relevant to the present._
The action is completed in the past (yesterday), and  I have it now (consequences relevant to the present).


----------



## διαφορετικός

Okay, now I understand it better, thanks.


----------



## διαφορετικός

How can I say "I have bought since yesterday" (with consequences relevant to the present) in Greek? (I think it is difficult to distinguish that case from "I have bought yesterday", isn't it?)


----------



## Perseas

διαφορετικός said:


> How can I say "I have bought since yesterday" (with consequences relevant to the present) in Greek? (I think it is difficult to distinguish that case from "I have bought yesterday", isn't it?)


Is "I have bought yesterday" valid? I think you cannot use the present perfect tense with time adverbs like yesterday.


----------



## διαφορετικός

Perseas said:


> I think you cannot use the present perfect tense with time adverbs like yesterday.


I think you are right.
I was wondering whether there is a simple way to express the meaning of "Έχουμε αγοράσει από χθές" in Greek,
but with the exception that the act(s) of αγοράζω did not happen "yesterday", but "since yesterday" (or, e.g., "since Wednesday"), i.e. in a timespan.


----------



## Perseas

You can say, for example, "αγόρασα κάτι στο διάστημα από Τετάρτη έως Παρασκευή".


----------



## διαφορετικός

Thanks, Perseas.
I am asking this mainly because I still find it confusing. I will make examples to ask the remaining questions.

In both examples, Mr. X has bought some rice, and therefore he can prepare dinner today. He did not have any rice on Monday, but because he has bought some, he can now prepare dinner. In the first example, I want to express the fact that he bought the rice on Wednesday. In the second example, I want to express the fact that he bought it since Monday (the day when he looked for rice in his kitchen, and did not find any).

Which of the following sentences to express the meaning of the two examples are correct? What would be "the" usual way(s) to express it in Greek?

First example ("He has* bought some rice on Wednesday" (and can therefore prepare dinner today)):

(1a) Αγόρασε κάποιο λίγο ρύζι την Τετάρτη.
(1b) Αγόρασε κάποιο λίγο ρύζι από την Τετάρτη.
(1c) Έχει αγοράσει κάποιο λίγο ρύζι από την Τετάρτη. (I think that this corresponds to the initial example of this discussion thread: "Είχαμε αγοράσει από χτες")
(1d) Έχει αγοράσει κάποιο λίγο ρύζι την Τετάρτη.
Second example ("He has* bought some rice since Monday" (and can therefore prepare dinner today)):

(2a) Αγόρασε κάποιο λίγο ρύζι από την Δευτέρα.
(2b) Αγόρασε κάποιο λίγο ρύζι στο διάστημα από την Δευτέρα έως σήμερα.
(2c) Έχει αγοράσει κάποιο λίγο ρύζι από την Δευτέρα.
(2d) Έχει αγοράσει κάποιο λίγο ρύζι στο διάστημα από την Δευτέρα έως σήμερα.
(* Contrary to what I wrote in post #17, I think that the present perfect is not wrong here, but rather mandatory in these examples, because I want to emphasize the connection with the present. I have looked it up in my English grammar meanwhile.)
PS: this remark about English grammar is misleading. See post #39.


----------



## Perseas

In my opinion, all Greek sentences are idiomatic, except maybe 1d, which I don't think it's appropriate for written speech.

In the first example the meaning is that he bought the rice on Wednesday, while in the second example he bought it on Monday (2a, 2c) and in a timespan between Monday and today (2b, 2d).
In Greek (unlike English when "since" is used) the past tense and the present perfect tense are both valid in cases when "από χθες" is used. "από + time adverb denoting past" connects the past with the present either by using the present perfect (probably this is stronger) or the past tense.


----------



## διαφορετικός

Thank you for your reply. I have added the numbers (1a, 1b, 1c, 1d, 2a, 2b, 2c, 2d) afterwards. Do they match with the numbers in your reply?


----------



## Perseas

διαφορετικός said:


> Thank you for your reply. I have added the numbers (1a, 1b, 1c, 1d, 2a, 2b, 2c, 2d) afterwards. Do they match with the numbers in your reply?


Yes.


----------



## διαφορετικός

I am not sure why you have connected "second example" with 1a, 1b, 1c, 1d. A mistake? (My "second example" contains 2a, 2b, 2c, 2d.)


----------



## Perseas

διαφορετικός said:


> I am not sure why you have connected "second example" with 1a, 1b, 1c, 1d. A mistake? (My "second example" contains 2a, 2b, 2c, 2d.)


I realized it just now and I fixed it.


----------



## διαφορετικός

Okay, consequently 2a and 2c are wrong, because they do not express what they should express (they don't match the English text).


----------



## διαφορετικός

My last question, hopefully: In what contexts does "από" really mean "since"?
In the examples, it does not ("Αγόρασε λίγο ρύζι από την Δευτέρα" means "He bought some rice on Monday", not "since Monday"). Can you make an example in which "από" really means "since"? (The temporal preposition "since" is translated as "από" in my dictionary.)


----------



## Armas

διαφορετικός said:


> In the second example, I want to express the fact that he bought it since Monday (the day when he looked for rice in his kitchen, and did not find any).


'Since Monday' here means _between Monday and__ today_? Couldn't this be said το νωρίτερο την Δευτέρα?


----------



## Perseas

διαφορετικός said:


> My last question, hopefully: In what contexts does "από" really mean "since"?
> In the examples, it does not ("Αγόρασε λίγο ρύζι από την Δευτέρα" means "He bought some rice on Monday", not "since Monday"). Can you make an example in which "από" really means "since"? (The temporal preposition "since" is translated as "από" in my dictionary.)


I think both "He has bought some rice since Monday" and "He  bought some rice on Monday" mean hat the verb's action has been completed on Monday, isn't it?

An example from WR dictionary:
_He hasn't been seen since he made that terrible scene.
Δεν τον έχει δει κανείς από τότε πού έκανε σκηνή._


----------



## διαφορετικός

Perseas said:


> I think both "He has bought some rice since Monday" and "He bought some rice on Monday" mean hat the verb's action has been completed on Monday, isn't it?


I don't think so. I think that this means that he bought the rice at an unspecified point of time between Monday and the present. 
I think that this dictionary entry confirms my view: since - Wiktionary
In German at least, it means what I have described, and it is also translated as "από". Of course, it can also mean "Continuously in the whole timespan from Monday till now". Maybe this is the only temporal "since"-related meaning of "από"?


----------



## διαφορετικός

Armas said:


> _between Monday and__ today_? Couldn't this be said το νωρίτερο την Δευτέρα?


It is probably not wrong, but I would prefer a simpler expression, if available.


----------



## Perseas

The following sentences express the timespan between Monday and now:
_Είμαι εδώ από τη Δευτέρα / Ι've been here since Monday / Ich bin hier seit Montag.
In Greek like in German the verb is in present tense._

But "Έχω διαβάσει αυτό το βιβλίο από τη Δευτέρα" means on Monday. It seems that this a Greek peculiarity. I am not sure how it translates idiomatically into English. If you want to express a continuing action from Monday till now, you use the present tense, not the present perfect: _Από τη Δευτέρα αγοράζω κάθε μέρα από λίγο ρύζι._


----------



## διαφορετικός

Perseas said:


> _Είμαι εδώ από τη Δευτέρα / Ι've been here since Monday_
> ...
> But "Έχω διαβάσει αυτό το βιβλίο από τη Δευτέρα" means on Monday. It seems that this a Greek peculiarity.


Thanks a lot. This is a surprise to me.


----------



## Perseas

After consideration, I have to revise my previous statement. Sorry.


Perseas said:


> In the first example the meaning is that he bought the rice on Wednesday, while in the second example he bought it on Monday (2a, 2c) and in a timespan between Monday and today (2b, 2d).


"από + a point in time" can mean both that specific point and the span between that point and a subsequent point.
For example, "από τη Δευτέρα έχω αγοράσει 5 πακέτα ρύζι" can mean both on 'Monday' and 'since Monday'. It depends on context and intonation.
It seems that I just had a fixation only with the one meaning. Sorry for that.


----------



## διαφορετικός

Thank you nevertheless, Perseas.

So there is only the following peculiarity about "since" / "από" in Greek, in comparison to English and other languages: "από + a point in time" _can_ mean that specific point, and in this case, "από" does not represent the meaning of "since" (which is the other possible - and non-surprising - meaning).

What's more: in this case, it means that the consequences of the action which took place at this point of time are relevant to another subsequent point in time. Is this right?


----------



## bearded

Talking about the future, would you still use  από - for example in a sentence like this:  Starting today/from today on I will do….
Apo simera tha kano…?
or else how would you express that meaning?
Thanks in advance.


----------



## velisarius

_- Πεινάω, αλλά βλ__έπω ότι δεν έχεις μαγειρέψει σήμερα. Δεν πειραζει. Ας παραγγείλουμε μία πίτσα.
- Όχι, δεν χρειάζεται. Ήξερα ότι θα ερχόσουνα και *έχω *_*μαγειρέψει από χτες. *_Το φαγητό είναι στο ψυγείο. Απλώς θέλει ξαναζέσταμα._

_I knew you were coming, so *I cooked (something) yesterday*. It's in the fridge; it just needs heating up._

It's difficult to convey in English the sense " I've already done something in preparation for now. In English we don't use the present perfect with a time expression like "yesterday".


*Aπό *can of course also express English "since"._ *"από τη Δευτέρα έχω αγοράσει 5 πακέτα ρύζι" *- I've bought 5 packets of rice since Monday. _I would understand that between Monday and today 5 packets have been bought, on two or more separate occasions. It would be odd to say that if the 5 packets had all been bought on Monday.


----------



## Perseas

velisarius said:


> *Aπό *can of course also express English "since".


Of course you are right! Είχα κολλήσει για πολλή ώρα με την άλλη σημασία.  


διαφορετικός said:


> What's more: in this case, it means that the consequences of the action which took place at this point of time are relevant to another subsequent point in time. Is this right?


Yes, so it is. 


bearded said:


> Talking about the future, would you still use  από - for example in a sentence like this:  Starting today/from to day on I will do….
> Apo simera tha kano…?


Yes, it is correct.


----------



## διαφορετικός

About the English grammar:


velisarius said:


> In English we don't use the present perfect with a time expression like "yesterday".


Thanks. Obviously I was wrong about that in post #19. With the present perfect, you should not use time adverbials which refer to a definite time of the past (but you may use time adverbials containing "since ..."). In the above example, this conflicts with the rule that the present perfect should be used if the effect on the present should be stressed. But the rule about the time adverbial seems to have the priority.


----------



## velisarius

_Έχω 5 πακέτα ρύζι __στη ντουλάπα *από* τη Δευτέρα, που πήγα και ψώνισα._

_I've had 5 packets of rice in the cupboard *since* Monday, when I went shopping. _It's possible, due to the fact that "have" has duration. 

_I bought some rice on Monday. _(Not " have bought".)
_I have bought rice since Monday.
I have had (in stock) some rice since Monday._


----------



## dmtrs

I'd like to join the interesting conversation in order to remind our foreign friends the flexibility in word order in Greek; it can be very helpful in situations like this.
While 
_Αγόρασε / Έχει αγοράσει λίγο ρύζι από τη Δευτέρα_ 
would normally mean, as is's been noted in previous posts, that he's bought the rice *on* Monday, 
_Από τη Δευτέρα αγόρασε / έχει αγοράσει λίγο ρύζι_ 
would be preferred to express that he's bought the rice in the meantime.

In oral speech things are easier, due to the intonation of the sentences (stressed words in bold):
*Αγόρασε/Έχει *αγοράσει λίγο ρύζι από τη Δευτέρα. = In the time between Monday and now he's bought some rice.
Αγόρασε/Έχει αγοράσει λίγο ρύζι από τη *Δευτέρα.* = He's already bought some rice, on Monday.
Από τη Δευτέρα *αγόρασε/έχει *αγοράσει λίγο ρύζι. = In the time between Monday and now he's bought some rice.
Από τη *Δευτέρα* αγόρασε/έχει αγοράσει λίγο ρύζι. = He's bought some rice, on Monday already. (I think this can be said in English, excuse me if I'm wrong.)


----------



## Perseas

dmtrs said:


> _Αγόρασε / Έχει αγοράσει λίγο ρύζι από τη Δευτέρα_
> would normally mean, as is's been noted in previous posts, that he's bought the rice *on* Monday,
> _Από τη Δευτέρα αγόρασε / έχει αγοράσει λίγο ρύζι_
> would be preferred to express that he's bought the rice in the meantime.


----------



## sotos

Helleno File said:


> I would have thought είχαμε αγοράσει would convey that.


The "από" is equivalent to the "already" here. Both are not essential, but they give the air of "preparedness".


----------

