# An article before "English" (as a language)



## Albionneur

There are very few guys I've met who speak __ English as brilliant as yours.

Can we use an article before the word English in any or both of the following sentences?

There are very few guys I've met who speak an English as brilliant as yours.
There are very few guys I've met who speak the English as brilliant as yours.

I personally incline towards the 2nd one, based on one of the established article usage rules ("that particular", "that very").


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## Miss Julie

I'm afraid all your examples are grammatically incorrect. In English, a definite or indefinite article is rarely used with languages (at least AmE).

_There are very few guys I've met *whose* English *is* as brilliant as yours._

_There are very few guys I've met who speak English as brilliant*ly* as *you*._


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## Albionneur

I thought so too. Thanks. I meant to give it a poetic touch. Technically, which one would you go with?


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## ribran

Albionneur said:


> There are very few guys I've met who speak English as brilliant as yours.
> 
> Can we use an article before the word English in any or both of the following sentences?
> 
> There are very few guys I've met who speak an English as brilliant as yours.
> There are very few guys I've met who speak the English as brilliant as yours.
> 
> I personally incline towards the 2nd one, based on one of the established article usage rules ("that particular", "that very").



I do not see anything wrong with your first sentence, but it does seem slightly literary. MissJulie's suggestions are very good.


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## ribran

Albionneur said:


> I thought so too. Thanks. I meant to give it a poetic touch. Technically, which one would you go with?



Ah, we were typing at the same time! If you want to give it a poetic touch, use the first of your examples.


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## Miss Julie

Miss Julie said:


> _There are very few guys I've met *whose* English *is* as brilliant as yours._
> 
> _There are very few guys I've met who speak English as brilliant*ly* as *you*._


 
If speaking, I would go with the second one. If writing, I have no preference...either one is fine.


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## Albionneur

Super! Thanks!


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## Miss Julie

ribran said:


> Ah, we were typing at the same time! If you want to give it a poetic touch, use the first of your examples.


 


Albionneur said:


> There are very few guys I've met who speak English as brilliant as yours.


 
No, do not use it; it is grammatically incorrect. He's describing _how_ someone speaks English, so he must use the adverbial form brilliant*ly*. And there is no noun that "yours" refers to. It would be "...as brilliantly as *you*."


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## ribran

Miss Julie said:


> I'm afraid all your examples are grammatically incorrect. In English, a definite or indefinite article is rarely used with languages (at least AmE).
> 
> _There are very few guys I've met *whose* English *is* as brilliant as yours._
> 
> _There are very few guys I've met who speak English as brilliant*ly* as *you*._



I do not agree that the poster's first example is incorrect. I think his example is slightly similar to the unusual, though correct, use of the definite article in the sentence, "We should also bear in mind the minimal distinction, if any, made in *the* France of the 1950s between the nationalities of Anglophone writers, other than British and American." - Alistair Rolls, _Mostly French: French (in) Detective Fiction_


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## Albionneur

What I meant to say is "such brilliant English as yours".
Compare:
I always wanted a car as comfortable as his.

In our case, its like saying
There are very few guys I've met who speak an/the English *which is* as brilliant as yours.

Can we dispense with an article here at all?


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## Miss Julie

ribran said:


> I do not agree that the poster's first example is incorrect. I think his example is slightly similar to the unusual, though correct, use of the definite article in the sentence, "We should also bear in mind the minimal distinction, if any, made in *the* France of the 1950s between the nationalities of Anglophone writers, other than British and American." - Alistair Rolls, _Mostly French: French (in) Detective Fiction_


 
Yes, but your example refers to France (the country), not French (the language). As I said, articles are rarely used before languages, except in an example like this:

_*The* French spoken in Quebec is very different from *the* French spoken in France._

An article would not work in the context of the sentences originally provided by the poster.


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## Miss Julie

Albionneur said:


> There are very few guys I've met who speak an/the English *which is* as brilliant as yours.
> 
> Can we dispense with an article here at all?


 
I guess you could use "an" here (definitely not "the"), but it is an awkward construction, one that I doubt a native speaker would use.


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## Albionneur

I really can't argue with you Miss Julie, since I'm not (unfortunately) a native speaker. Thanks for your input.


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## ribran

From _Cheerful Americans_ by Charles Battell Loomis:

_Now we come to the unexplainable part. I was an ear witness, but I can offer no explanations. I was sitting at a neighboring table; I knew them both slightly, and there is no manner of doubt that on a sudden M. Albertin began to speak an English as idiomatic and pure as the best. And Benton replied in a faultless French._ (on a sudden = all of a sudden)

From _Literature_, a literary magazine:

_Grace, strength, neatness of expression, lucidity of thought: all these are in Racine, we allow, but surely our great writers from Dryden to Johnson were masters of all these elements, and could have taught the foreigner to speak an English as vivid, nervous, and brilliant as his native French._

From _Modern Scottish Culture_ by Michael Gardiner:

_This ebb and flow structures Scots' linguistic experience: there are places where using an English word which is too Standard is positively dangerous... and others... where people will try to speak an English as Standard as possible._

From _The Joy Bringer: A Tale of the Painted Desert_ by Grace MacGowan Cooke:

_The gentleman from Kentucky found himself able to speak an English as unintelligible to Tereva as Hopi was to him, and in it he chose to converse when she was present. _


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## Albionneur

Wow! Cool, buddy!


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## Miss Julie

Impressive, but we're trying to guide the poster toward everyday, _colloquial_ English. These examples are very esoteric and not applicable here.


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## Hermione Golightly

Hello albionneur


I am sorry, but I agree that none of your examples is correct or acceptable. The first is plain  wrong and the other two are very strange. There might be constructions in which "an English" or "the English ( language)" are possible. In fact there is at least one regional variation,or dialect, in which 'the English' would be normal but if other people use it, it sounds plain wrong because it  not part of their normal speech pattern along with the accent and other dialect features. There would be nothing poetic about it, only a pseudo -elegance.

Are you writing a poem or some sort of  eulogy that might require  high flying style?

Hermione


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## Hermione Golightly

> Impressive, but we're trying to guide the poster toward everyday, _colloquial_ English. These examples are very esoteric and not applicable here.
> __________________



Well said Miss Julie.


Hermione


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## Parla

I'm totally in agreement with Ms Julie.


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## Albionneur

These discussions only make my love for this LANGUAGE stronger! Merci!


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## Albionneur

By the way, how would you react to the following statement?

I finally heard the/an English I hadn't had a chance to speak for all these years on the island.

Could Robinson Crusoe have thought that way?


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## Miss Julie

Albionneur said:


> I finally heard the/an English I hadn't had a chance to speak for all these years on the island.
> 
> Could Robinson Crusoe have thought that way?


 
I think either is OK...


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## Albionneur

I'm absolutely loving this! Many thanks!


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## Miss Julie

Albionneur said:


> I finally heard the/an English I hadn't had a chance to speak for all these years on the island.
> 
> Could Robinson Crusoe have thought that way?


 
I meant to add that it was OK because Crusoe was talking about a _particular type_ of English (dialect), and in this instance a definite or indefinite article would be appropriate.


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## synnove

I agree completely with Ribran.  I find these forums to be helpful because they deal with nuance, detail, and out of the ordinary usages in addition to colloquial use of language.  Including all possibilities for correct use is so helpful.

The original post's first option is a bit out of the ordinary, but I see nothing wrong with it when viewed a certain way, and can imagine an occasion when it could be used appropriately for effect.


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## synnove

Miss Julie said:


> I meant to add that it was OK because Crusoe was talking about a _particular type_ of English (dialect), and in this instance a definite or indefinite article would be appropriate.



In this situation, I would go with "the English," because to me using "an English" implies that he heard other types of English while on the island but is now hearing a different type.  "The English" seems to imply he hadn't heard the entire language at all.


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## ribran

synnove said:


> In this situation, I would go with "the English," because to me using "an English" implies that he heard other types of English while on the island but is now hearing a different type.  "The English" seems to imply he hadn't heard the entire language at all.



I agree. "The" English.


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## Albionneur

Synnove, thanks man. Truly, in English there are so many ways to convey an idea. Personally, I don't see a reason to learn a language other than English. It's a perfect communication channel for just about any occasion there is.


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## Havfruen

In this example, "an English" sounds correct. I want the indefinite article because the speaker is referring to the variety of English spoken by the guy being addressed. 

I agree this is literary or poetic. Definitely not what we say in casual conversation in US. It sounds like something out of an older British novel, "There's few chaps I've met who speak an English as brilliant as yours."

The second option "the English" is incorrect given what follows in the remainder of the sentence.


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## infant

Hermione Golightly said:


> In fact there is at least one regional variation,or dialect, in which 'the English' would be normal...
> Hermione


 
Dear Hermione,
Would you kindly provide that example.
thanks much


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## panjandrum

_<< Moderator note.
The topic of the thread is set out in the title and the first post.
Threads that did not address the thread topic have been deleted.
Please take more care to specifically address the thread topic.
panjandrum >>_


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## Roymalika

Hi 

I can speak English. 

Can I use article "an" or "the" before "English" in this sentence? 

Thanks.


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## Miss Julie

Roymalika said:


> Hi
> 
> I can speak English.
> 
> Can I use article "an" or "the" before "English" in this sentence?
> 
> Thanks.


No; it would make the sentence incorrect.


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## Roymalika

Miss Julie said:


> No; it would make the sentence incorrect.


Could you please explain the reason why "a" or "the" wouldn't be used here?
As I understand, English is a countable noun. There is not just one English. There are many Englishes, i.e. American English, British English, Australian English, Canadian English etc. So we can count them. So "an" can be used. 
And If we are talking about one specific English, we can use "the". I mean, if my listeners/readers know which English I am talking about, I can use "the". 
So that's how I understand it:
I can speak *an* English (= I can speak _any_ English, i.e American, British, Australian etc.)
I can speak *the* English (= I can speak one _specific_ English, which my readers/listeners are aware of. For example, _American English._)


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## Uncle Jack

Roymalika said:


> As I understand, English is a countable noun.


What gives you this idea?


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## Miss Julie

Then you would say "I speak American/British/Australian/Canadian English." An article, definite or indefinite, would still not be used.


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## Uncle Jack

Miss Julie said:


> Then you would say "I speak American/British/Australian/Canadian English." An article, definite or indefinite, would still not be used.


Correct.


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## dojibear

Roymalika said:


> As I understand, English is a countable noun.
> There is not just one English.


You are incorrect. It is uncountable. The dictionary says so (meaning #4):
English - WordReference.com Dictionary of English



Roymalika said:


> There are many Englishes, i.e. American English, British English, Australian English, Canadian English etc.)


These are different dialects of one language. Every language has multiple dialects, including Punjabi. 

English is spoken in a much larger area than Punjabi, so its dialects might differ more. The US is 4,500 km wide, and is 4,700 km away from the UK. Australia and India are even farther. Despite all this distance, most of the difference is pronunciation. The dialects use mostly (99%) the same words and mostly (99%) the same grammar.

I am sure it is VERY frustrating for a student learning English. The spoken dialects sound so different! Even fluent speakers from one region (for me, northeastern US) need practice in order to understand speakers using other dialects.


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## Roymalika

dojibear said:


> It is uncountable.


@dojibear Is that the reason why we can't use "an" with "English" in the sentence I gave in #32? And please can you also tell me why we can't use "the" with "English" in that sentence?


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## dojibear

I think that a language name is a proper noun. That's why I write "Punjabi" instead of "punjabi".
So the rules for proper nouns apply. That includes not using "a/an/the" before the noun.


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## sdgraham

Roymalika said:


> Could you please explain the reason why "a" or "the" wouldn't be used here?


I suggest you simply accept the fact that no English speaker of native ability would _eve_r say it.
In fact, it's frequently used to denigrate immigrants struggling with English
See: Urban Dictionary: No Speaka Da English


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## Roymalika

Uncle Jack said:


> What gives you this idea?


Haven't you read my fill post (#34)? I've explained there why I thought so?


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## Uncle Jack

There are doubtless many different types of happiness, but that does not make happiness a countable noun. There being different types of the thing is only very loosely related to a noun being countable.


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## Edinburgher

Roymalika said:


> As I understand, English is a countable noun. There is not just one English. There are many Englishes, i.e. American English, British English, Australian English, Canadian English etc. So we can count them. So "an" can be used.


You are right.  "English" is in principle countable, and indeed Ngrams shows that in some specialized contexts, it can be so used.  It has links to books.  In particular, the phrase "World Englishes" seems to be a thing.

That said, *in practice, we do not use it countably in ordinary everyday language*, and so you would be well advised to abstain.

If we collocate 'an' or 'the' with 'English' in ordinary everyday language, then 'English' is likely to be attributive (in the role of an adjective), and then the article really applies to the noun that follows, for example:
_I heard *an English dialect* yesterday that was new to me.
'Hungry' and 'angry' are two words that end in -gry.  There are three words in *the English language*. What is the third word?_


Roymalika said:


> So that's how I understand it:
> I can speak *an* English (= I can speak _any_ English, i.e American, British, Australian etc.)
> I can speak *the* English (= I can speak one _specific_ English, which my readers/listeners are aware of. For example, _American English._)


These explanations are faulty.  'An' does not mean 'any', it means 'one'.
"I can speak an English", if it were idiomatic, would mean that there exists one English that I can speak.
'The' does not mean 'one specific' unless you contextualize it, for example by adding "of ...".  Otherwise it means the only one.


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## Roymalika

Uncle Jack said:


> There are doubtless many different types of happiness, but that does not make happiness a countable noun. There being different types of the thing is only very loosely related to a noun being countable.





Edinburgher said:


> That said, *in practice, we do not use it countably in ordinary everyday language*, and so you would be well advised to absta


@Uncle Jack @Edinburgher 
Can I say that we cannot use *a* or *the* with 'English' because it is a proper noun and all proper nouns are uncountable?


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## Uncle Jack

Roymalika said:


> Can I say that we cannot use *a* or *the* with 'English' because it is a proper noun and all proper nouns are uncountable?


You cannot say that all proper nouns are uncountable. There are usually three or four Audis in the car park at work, for example.

The English language defies logic and appears to revel in inconsistency; for every rule there appears to be an exception. There isn't really any reason that I can see for why lentils should be countable and rice uncountable.


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