# Loro, essi, esse



## Bookmom

In addition to the death of loro, I've recently been hearing of the death of esse/essi in spoken usage, written only? Any comments? Confirmations? Opinions?


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## Paulfromitaly

You mean _esse/essi_, that is you plural?
They are hardly used in spoken Italian, and you can find them in very formal written Italian or in poems and books written during the past centuries.


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## Bookmom

Exactly, thanks Paul.


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## Alxmrphi

Gyurme said:


> what do you mean by the death of loro. what is specifically is the change in usage?



The death of "*L*oro" (Plural, "you"), not "loro" (they)


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## Bookmom

Good catch Alex!  Thanks


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## Paulfromitaly

Alex_Murphy said:


> The death of "*L*oro" (Plural, "you"), not "loro" (they)



I must be particularly thick today because I don't understand what we are talking about..
I was wrong of course when when I said :



Paulfromitaly said:


> You mean _esse/essi_, that is you plural?
> They are hardly used in spoken Italian, and you can find them in very formal written Italian or in poems and books written during the past centuries.



_esse/essi_, that is a synonym of _loro_ means _They_, not You (plural).


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## Alxmrphi

We're talking about "Loro" (you) not "they" (refering to post #10)
When was the last time you adressed a group of people with "Loro"?
I don't understand how you don't understand, it's probably been one of the most major topics on this forum.

I know ALL about "those days", I have them every other day, sleep, and see it again tomorrow.

Take this for instance, they haven't included "you" formal plural?
Make sense now ickle Pawl?


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## Paulfromitaly

O'rite chuck, I got ya now!!

You were talking about _Loro_ used instead of _Voi_ as an extremely polite way to address people..it's so rarely used that I didn't understand what the hell you were on about!
_Loro_ instead of _Voi _is as old-fashioned as _Voi_ instead of_ Lei_, although it's still the right way to address the highest offices of the Church as Archbishops, Bishops and Cardinals.
My comment about the progressive loss of _esse/essi_ is still valid.


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## Alxmrphi

Esse/Essi are used for "they" and not "you"? right?(to clarify, cos I've gone and got confused now, haha).


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## uinni

Alex_Murphy said:


> Esse/Essi are used for "they" and not "you"? right?(to clarify, cos I've gone and got confused now, haha).


 
Yes!
But nowadays they are less and less used, supplanted by "loro".

Uinni


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## Alxmrphi

Well that's good Cos I've never learnt them, hehe. I suppose I should make myself "aware" of them incase someone does use them.


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## Paulfromitaly

Alex_Murphy said:


> Esse/Essi are used for "they" and not "you"? right?(to clarify, cos I've gone and got confused now, haha).



Yes, _Essi/Esse_ are a "sexwise" synonym of _loro_ meaning They.
Although it's not very common in spoken Italian you can use _essi_ for a group of males, _esse_ for a group of females, whereas if there are both males and females we normally just say _loro_.


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## Alxmrphi

You're enjoying confusing me today, aren't you!!! lol.

Uppercase "L" + oro = You
Lowercase "l" + oro = they

So if "esse/essi" are synonyms of "they", then why did you say "Loro" (plural you), maybe it's the way I have read grammar lessons, but "loro = they" (unless at the beginning of a sentence) and the other one is for "You, formal, plural".

Yes, _Essi/Esse_ are a "sexwise" synonym of _*loro*_ meaning They.

If this is what you meant, keep it this way Lots of my books say if it is a lowercase "l" it's "they", and you don't want to go around confusing people now do you Paul? Tormenting their dreams and making them rip their hair out in confusion! lol. Only joking


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## Paulfromitaly

Alex_Murphy said:


> You're enjoying confusing me today, aren't you!!! lol.
> 
> Uppercase "L" + oro = You
> Lowercase "l" + oro = they
> 
> So if "esse/essi" are synonyms of "they", then why did you say "Loro" (plural you), maybe it's the way I have read grammar lessons, but "loro = they" (unless at the beginning of a sentence) and the other one is for "You, formal, plural".
> 
> Yes, _Essi/Esse_ are a "sexwise" synonym of _*loro*_ meaning They.
> 
> If this is what you meant, keep it this way Lots of my books say if it is a lowercase "l" it's "they", and you don't want to go around confusing people now do you Paul? Tormenting their dreams and making them rip their hair out in confusion! lol. Only joking



Sorry, mate..you're right all along the line.

_Loro_ = you plural, but really formal
_loro _(essi/esse) = they

I'm going to correct my old post in order to avoid confusion.


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## Gyurme

the good news is that they don't even teach essi/esse anymore in the US introductory Italian texts. However, they continue to present Loro (2nd person formal plural.) that's why I was curious about the death of Loro. 
So do I understand correctly that voi or Voi is used instead? And Loro is reserved for heads of state etc.?
Thanks guys.


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## Paulfromitaly

Gyurme said:


> the good news is that they don't even teach essi/esse anymore in the US introductory Italian texts. However, they continue to present Loro (2nd person formal plural.)



That's funny because_ essi/esse_ is still much more common than _Loro_ used as 2nd person formal plural..



> So do I understand correctly that voi or Voi is used instead? And Loro is reserved for heads of state etc.?
> Thanks guys.


Let me try to recap:

_*lei* _is the usual way to address a person, male or female (you 2nd singular)
*Voi* is the _very_ formal way to address a person, male or female (you 2nd singular)
*voi* is the usual way to address people, males or females (you 2nd plural)
*Loro  *is the _very _formal way to address people, males or females (you 2nd plural)


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## uinni

Hi.
Paul, I am afraid you got tired out by all these posts  


Paulfromitaly said:


> Let me try to recap:
> 
> _*Lei* _is the *formal *way to address a person, male or female (you 2nd singular)
> *lei *is the usual way to address a female (she).
> *Voi* is the _very*(?)*_ formal way to address a person, male or female (you 2nd singular)* in South Italy.*
> *Voi *is the formal way to address more than one person (you 2nd plural)
> *voi* is the usual way to address people, males or females (you 2nd plural)
> *Loro *is the _very _formal way to address people, males or females (you 2nd plural), which is in decline (but you may hear it in restaurants/hotels where waiters and the like tend to be highly formal).
> *loro* is the iusual way to address more than one person (they) -which has almost replaced essi/esse)


 
Uinni


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## Paulfromitaly

uinni said:


> Hi.
> Paul, I am afraid you got tired out by all these posts
> 
> 
> Uinni



Qui tra i mangiapolenta, dare del _Voi_ è molto formale..


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## Neutrino

Doesn't "loro" also mean "their"?


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## Paulfromitaly

Neutrino said:


> Doesn't "loro" also mean "their"?



Yes: il loro cane = their dog.


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## Akire72

Paulfromitaly said:


> Qui tra i mangiapolenta, dare del _Voi_ è molto formale..



Qui tra i mangiabistecche è praticamente morto e sepolto, anzi direi estinto!!!  Si usa praticamente solo nell'italiano commerciale scritto, ma non nella lingua parlata.


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## uinni

Paulfromitaly said:


> Qui tra i mangiapolenta, dare del _Voi_ è molto formale..


 
Anche qui tra i mangia polenta dell'Est è molto formale ma solo in friulano (e anche lì è in disuso a favore di Jê/Lui  ).

Ma non certo in Italiano standard (almeno dalla caduta del fascismo  )

Uinni



Akire72 said:


> Qui tra i mangiabistecche è praticamente morto e sepolto, anzi direi estinto!!!  Si usa praticamente solo nell'italiano commerciale scritto, ma non nella lingua parlata.


 
In realtà nì. Nell'italiano commerciale scritto si usa il Voi non come formale per persona singola ma come formale per una pluralità di persone (che compongoo l'azienda). Tralaltro, il "Voi" viene sempre più soppiantato dal "voi" minuscolo.

Uinni



Neutrino said:


> Doesn't "loro" also mean "their"?


 
Yes, and in fact although at the end even purists gave up, its usage instead of essi/e was considered an ERROR (not long ago)!
Alas our language is worsening more and more...

Uinni


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## Akire72

uinni said:


> In realtà nì. Nell'italiano commerciale scritto si usa il Voi non come formale per persona singola ma come formale per una pluralità di persone (che compongoo l'azienda).  VERO!
> 
> Tralaltro, il "Voi" viene sempre più soppiantato dal "voi" minuscolo. Voglia Iddio, con tutte queste maiuscole si perde la via per tornare a casa!!!
> 
> Uinni



P.s., ma "tra l'altro" si può scrivere tutto attaccato? Non l'avevo mai visto scritto così


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## marialdina27

So,"Essi sono sporchi" would be an old fashion way of saying they are dirty. Instead I should say, "loro sono sporchi". Right?


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## arthurlee

marialdina27 said:


> So,"Essi sono sporchi" would be an old fashion way of saying they are dirty. Instead I should say, "loro sono sporchi" . Right?



Even better: "_Sono sporchi_". When speaking we usually don't "stress" the person. 
Anyway it's funny because I NEVER used "essi/esse" in my whole life, still if you flip through any Italian grammar book you'll find this pronominal list:
"Io, tu, egli, noi, voi, essi". ("Ella" and "esse" are EVEN less used, at least here up in Northern Italy)


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## Akire72

Fortunately (or unfortunately, depending on the standpoint) the new school teacher tend to teach the children the new personal pronouns: lui/lei (instead of egli/ella) and loro (instead of essi/esse).


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## Duarte

So is this lui\lei (and loro) instead of egli/ella trend French influence? Because the former is pretty much the same as in Portuguese or Spanish.


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## Bookmom

I love this thread. It's so much like who's on first? Why is it that no one answered Duarte's query? Is there, indeed, a trending French influence?


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## merquiades

Paulfromitaly said:


> Yes: il loro cane = their dog.


So, il Loro cane = your dog ?
Capital Loro meaning formal you plural.

Signore e Signora Rossi, questo è il Loro cane, non è vero?


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## Paulfromitaly

merquiades said:


> Signore e Signora Rossi, questo è il Loro cane, non è vero?


Yes, but bear in mind nobody uses such a formal language nowadays as it'd sound kind of ridiculous.


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