# Orhan



## Canbek

This word is the name of the second "Ottoman Emperor"...Is this word  Semitic OR  Irani ?

Thanks   kindly.


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## Wolverine9

Neither.  It appears to be of Turkish origin.


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## Canbek

How does it appear to be of Turkish origin ?


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## berndf

This is the apparent Turkish etymology: _or_ (_great_) + _khan_ (_leader_) (source). Why would it surprise you that a Turk should bear a Turkish name?


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## Canbek

The word  "Or"  according to Turkish Redhouse means  = archaik  dike: earth work protected by a ditch...

Xan in Pahlavi= House
 Han ( according to Redhouse, English-Turkish dictionary)= from Persian, means 1-) caravansaray, Khan;inn. 2-Large commercial building.

So,this "appearent" Turkish " Khan", according to Turkish dictionary, is a Pahlavi-Farsi word...Also,  after  " Osman, Murad and Mehmed" which are all Arabic words,  I would be a bit surprised to learn  that Orhan was a Turkish name...Appearently, its not !  How ever, I'm not still sure about the etymology...May be Arabic , considering that "Or" ?


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## berndf

_Khan=leader,ruler _exists in all Turkic an Mongolian languages. There is little room for serious doubt that in a Tukish king name name any other similar sounding word of any other language group should be relevant.

The Turkish etymology is straight forward and historically plausible. I see the onus of proof with the proponents of a different etymology, especially such a constructed one.

In Ottoman Turkish, ح‎, خ‎ and ه share the same pronunciation,  in modern Turkish, and all three are spelled <h> in modern Turkish. You cannot deduce anything from the spelling with <h> rather than <kh>.

The modern Turkish word _han _has the two distinct meanings you quoted:  _caravansaray_ and _Khan_. They have independent etymology, the former from Persian, the later is native Turkic.

About _or=great _we have to wait for our Turkish (or Turkic) speaking friends to shed some light on the issue. I can't find it in modern Turkish dictionaries either.


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## Treaty

Canbek said:


> The word  "Or"  according to Turkish Redhouse means  = archaik  dike: earth work protected by a ditch...
> 
> Xan in Pahlavi= House
> Han ( according to Redhouse, English-Turkish dictionary)= from Persian,  means 1-) caravansaray, Khan;inn. 2-Large commercial building.




I wonder when was the last time a king named his son "earth-worked house" 

Here, ör is defined as "above, up" in Turkish. So the meaning provided by *berndf *is likely. The etymology of han خان (= lord) seems obvious.

There is also Arabic عرهان _ʿurhān_ (as mentioned by Origumi) but it is different in spelling and pronunciation from اورخان _orxān_. So we should rule it out.

The Redhouse dictionary is a dictionary of common words in present time so it is not the best source for tracking the roots of a 14th century name (which itself may be much older). Like in other languages, there are many Turkish words not used any more and so no one bothers to put it in a dictionary.


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## Rallino

> [...]"Osman, Murad and Mehmed" which are all Arabic words [...]


That's not very surprising. After all, there were more than 35 rulers in the Ottoman history, but the names of all of them were an alternation of the ones in the following extremely short list:
 Murat, 
Mehmet, Mahmut, Ahmet (These all come from the same root)
Selim, 
Süleyman (which, by the way, is apparently Hebrew)
Mustafa, 
Abdül-mecit/hamit/aziz (Practically they all mean _the slave of God_)

So, saying that they all had an Arabic name doesn't really tell us much in my opinion: they weren't very creative, to start with. Plus, the names of Osman's father and grandfather were _Kaya Alp_ and _Ertuğrul Bey_ which are also Turkic. So, chances that his son's name is also Turkic is not so slim. 

The word _han_ in the meaning of _Khan_ is Turkic. You need to provide a really good resource to possibly prove that it's Persian. From what I know, the words _han_ and _Khan/__Kaan/Kağan_ are two different versions of the same word. There is also the word _hakan_ which is the Arabic version of _kağan_. (This last statement is from Nişanyan). 

I have never heard of _or_. According to TDK, it's a dialectal word that has a couple of different meanings among which there is _fire_. If it exists, it's not an active word in Standard Turkish (of Turkey). But I personally like the _fire_ meaning, though.

So far, what we have is: (1) There is very little doubt that _han_ is Turkic. and (2) We don't know much about the _or_ syllable.


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## ancalimon

"OR" shares the same root withwords like *ordu* (horde, army) and *orta* (middle; which is also another word related with the position of the leader in army). It also might be the root of many different words about direction and geography.

OR has another Turkic meaning that is also shared with Mongolian which is "place, throne" which I think also is related the word *ORDU*

There is another meaning of "OR" which is related with reddish ~ blondish colour ~ shining and also "high" which is suggested by some experts of Proto-Turkic.

I think the name ORHAN shares the same "OR" root with other names like "ORHUN (my name)", "ORÇUN", "ORBAY", "ORAY", etc.

The word "khan" ~ "han" is related with the word "kan" ~ "ğan" meaning blood, lineage. In my opinion it is also related with "kayın" meaning "beech tree", "tree of life", "in-law (which is also the root of Kayı; the clan that founded Ottoman Empire)"



> Proto-Turkic: *or-
> 
> Altaic etymology: Altaic etymology
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meaning: 1 place 2 palace 3 lair, den 4 middle 5 place of staying (of the army, ruler etc.) 6 army
> Russian meaning: 1 место 2 дворец 3 берлога, логово 4 середина 5 место стоянки (армии, правителя) 6 армия
> Old Turkic: orun 1 (OUygh.), ordu 2, 5, ortu 4 (Orkh., OUygh.)
> Karakhanid: orun 1, ordu 2, 3, otra ~ ortu (MK) 5
> Turkish: orun 1, ordu 6, orta 4
> Tatar: urɨn 1, urda 5, urta 4
> Middle Turkic: orun 1, ordu, orda 5, orta 4 (Pav. C.)
> Uzbek: ọrin 1, ọrda 5, ọrta 4
> Uighur: orun 1, o(r)da 5, orta 4
> Sary-Yughur: orɨn 1, orta, orto, otra 4
> Azerbaidzhan: ordu 6, orta 4
> Turkmen: orun 1, orta 4, orda 6
> Khakassian: orɨn 1, orda 5, ortɨ 4
> Oyrat: orɨn 1, ordo 5, orto 4
> Chuvash: vɨrъn 1, vъda 4
> Yakut: ordū 1, 3, 5, oron 1, orto 4
> Dolgan: onnu 1
> Tuva: orun 1, ortu 4
> Tofalar: oron 1
> Kirghiz: orun 1, ordo 5, orto 4
> Kazakh: orɨn 1, orda 4, 5, orta 4
> Noghai: orɨn 1, orda 5, orta 4
> Bashkir: urɨn 1, urda 5, urta 4
> Balkar: orun 1, orta 4
> Gagauz: orta 4
> Karaim: orun 1, ordu 6, orta 4
> Karakalpak: orɨn 1, orda 5, orta 4
> Kumyk: orun 1, orda 5, 6, orta 4
> Comments: EDT 203-204, 233, VEWT 364, 365, TMN 2, 141, ЭСТЯ 1, 470-472, 474-479, Лексика 495, 563, 569, Stachowski 193, 196. Turkic is the source of Mong. oron 'place', ordo(n) 'palace' (cf. TMN 1, 164-165, 2, 38-39, Щербак 1997, 130), whence Man. oron etc., see Doerfer MT  116. The PT *ordu 'place of staying' may need to be separated from  other forms here: it contains a very untypical *-rd- cluster (as opposed  to *or-tu 'middle') and may reflect an ancient borrowing from some  unknown source. Cf. in that respect WMong. örte- 'to change post  horses', örtegen 'postal relay station', also somewhat obscure in  origin.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Proto-Turkic: *or
> 
> Altaic etymology: Altaic etymology
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meaning: red-brown (of a horse)
> Russian meaning: каштаново-гнедой (о масти лошади)
> Karakhanid: _or_ (MK, IM)
> Oyrat: _or_ 'grey'
> Yakut: _or_ 'blackish piebald'
> Kazakh: _or_
> Bashkir: ur-ɣujan 'заяц-русак'
> Comments: EDT 192-193, VEWT 364.



I'm guessing some people named their children with a name starting with OR because it is a word that denotes highness, prestige. But I guess the only person that achieved that prestige was "Orhan Gazi" 

After a while people of Turkey started mass converting to Islam and I guess that is when Arabic and Persian names were started to be used frequently. Actually they did not specifically convert to Islam they simply adopted religion. Before that they did not have any religion and they were all what we today call as Tengriist which is not a religion in itself (it does not have any religious elite or rules. It's just how people perceived and deducted the universe by thinking on their own without being bound by clergy or rules)


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## Wolverine9

ancalimon said:


> The word "khan" ~ "han" is related with the word "kan" ~ "ğan" meaning blood, lineage. In my opinion it is also related with "kayın" meaning "beech tree", "tree of life", "in-law (which is also the root of Kayı; the clan that founded Ottoman Empire)"



So you don't think Khan "lord" is the meaning intended in the name?


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## ancalimon

Wolverine9 said:


> So you don't think Khan "lord" is the meaning intended in the name?



I think the word khan is related with a so-called royal lineage. There was an ancient tradition among Turkic people. They used poles made of kayın (beech) tree which is sacred in Turkic cosmology and is a connection between realms. On it they wrote the branching family tree. That's is why we have the word soy ağacı (family tree, race tree). When two families become one by marrying their children, the other child's family becomes the "kayın" (in-law) of the other child. (thus we have words like kayınana : mother in law, kayınbaba : father in law)

The name of the clan that founded Ottoman empire is "Kayı" which supposedly means "those that gained power via becoming relatives (probably meaning two prominent families combined to form a stronger family). It might be because of this that Orhan Gazi was named this way; maybe to pay respect to the beech tree, and thus the family.


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## berndf

You still didn't answer Wolverine's question with a clear yes or no. Is your explanation an attempt to explain the etymology of Khan=ruler or is it an alternative to the or+khan=ruler theory?


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## ancalimon

berndf said:


> You still didn't answer Wolverine's question with a clear yes or no. Is your explanation an attempt to explain the etymology of Khan=ruler or is it an alternative to the or+khan=ruler theory?



It's both an alternative to khan itself, and thus an alternative to Or+Khan.

Don't get me wrong. Khan itself means lord - ruler - king. But I just tried to explain why it could mean that.


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## Canbek

When we think of two seperate words - appearantly it is-  berndf's prompt  response turns 
out to be correct.

Khan, in Mongol = Ruler...To Turkish, as " Han"  and in my opinion to Persian  from Turkish but in
" Xan" form...Or, straight from Mongolian to Persian , I don't know.

Pahlavi   Xan, which I previously stated ,  is actually the Xan-Xane-Xana-Hane  seen  in  Irani languages,means " Home"  the last one is of Turkish  form.

To  " Or"  things get a bit different...In Turkey's  Turkish,   berndf stated the word " Or" as  "High" , I've personally  haven't  read or witnessed this word used collaquily or officially  meaning High in English...May be some one has...There is no such word  exists in my two dictionaries  as meaning High in English and neither in  Asiatic Turkish, in " Or" form.There is many words come from the root "  Or"  but, not Or as itself, which is a seperate  issue.

Only one  exception and  just in that,  as far as I know, used for the "Highest"  ranking senior army officials, as " Or General"...

There is two words correspond to High in English which are colloquially and officially used and very well known is:

1-  Yüksek = high, tall...The root word  "Yük"  means " Load" in  English..And there is quiet a few words generated  from this root in  both meanings...How ever, as in High, it's unlikely used in Central  Asiatic Turkish.

2-Yukari/Yokari   I think  this is the original  one  because its used in Central Asian Turkish too...means :  1- above,  on top 2-tall, 3- high, high up 4- senior

In my opinion,in this   we should look at Mongolian ...Ur(mak) in Mongolian=to strike.Exactly as  same as in Asiatic  Turkish and in Turkey, which  it takes letter V in  front and  forms "V-urmak"...However, personally I witnessed Turks (  Yörük  and Türkmen  peoples)  using this word in original form.

From Mongolian Ur, forms Urdu= camp of strikers, army camp...Asiatic Turkish form is same,
Urdu=camp...To Persian, it becomes Ordu= camp, army...In Turkey Turkish same, Ordu=army...

There is many words from this root, Ur, in Turkish...urunmak = to fight, to beat, toss...

   uru(sh)mak ( actually urusmak, that S gives a sound  as Sh of Show  in  English)= to struggle, to fight, to wage war...And there's some more out  of this "Ur" root...

 So  finally, in my opinion " Or-Han"   means, striking or warring, fighting ruler  in Turkish...U sound and  letter, some how replaced by O  and  Ur  becoming Or ...Orhan...اورخان غازی If some one could transliterate to English, would be helpful...

The  arousing issue is :  although name Orhan sounds and is perfectly   Turkish,and one of the Emperors name,  it's a bit strange that  the  Ottoman Empires of that era, even Orhan himself, didn't use the  Turkish  word  Han  ...

Instead, they used Padisah, which is a very old Irani  word...This is , obviously, something to be discussed in other platforms.


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## Ben Jamin

Canbek said:


> The word  "Or"  according to Turkish Redhouse means  = archaik  dike: earth work protected by a ditch...
> 
> Xan in Pahlavi= House
> Han ( according to Redhouse, English-Turkish dictionary)= from Persian, means 1-) caravansaray, Khan;inn. 2-Large commercial building.


Are you serious, or is it a joke?


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## Treaty

Canbek said:


> So  finally, in my opinion " Or-Han"   means, striking or warring, fighting ruler  in Turkish...U sound and  letter, some how replaced by O  and  Ur  becoming Or ...Orhan...اورخان غازی If some one could transliterate to English, would be helpful...



Third, I guess you want the meaning of اورخان غازی. It means "Orhan the holy warrior". غازی _ḡāzī _is the subject noun for the Arabic root _ḡ-z-w_ which connotes fighting and conquering for Islam.


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## Canbek

Treaty said:


> Third, I guess you want the meaning of اورخان غازی. It means "Orhan the holy warrior". غازی _ḡāzī _is the subject noun for the Arabic root _ḡ-z-w_ which connotes fighting and conquering for Islam.



 Thanks for it...Is it exactly as Orhan, or similar or with some different letter...Is it  as Xan or Han exactly ?  Or or  Ur or Ar exactly ?  Mean time " gazi" in my opinion might be from a different root:   Avestan  " vi - zainti" = to hit against ;  Persian "gazidan" = hit against...


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## ancalimon

Gazi is from Arabic. It means veteran in Turkish. But Orhan does not mean Striking Khan.

Atatürk also is known as Gazi Mustafa Kemal Atatürk.  And anyone who has been in a battle and came back.


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## Treaty

Canbek said:


> Thanks for it...Is it exactly as Orhan, or  similar or with some different letter...Is it  as Xan or Han exactly ?   Or or  Ur or Ar exactly ?  Mean time " gazi" in my opinion might be from  a different root:   Avestan  " vi - zainti" = to hit against ;  Persian  "gazidan" = hit against...



Again the spelling and alphabet issue. غازی is written with غ _ḡ_ (called _ḡayn_ and pronounced γ or the Greek gamma). Those you said are written with گ g (called _gāf  _and  pronounced like g in English). The loyalty to the original spelling was  a big deal at that time (as I told, a sign of literacy and  scholarship). 

_ḡāzī _is  a common Arabic term for people who fight for the Islamic side (specially against  non-Muslim territories). It well connects to his successful campaigns against the Byzantine Empire.


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## berndf

Canbek said:


> Or or  Ur or Ar exactly ?


The difference between O and U cannot be expressed in Arabic script.


Canbek said:


> Mean time " gazi" in my opinion might be from a different root:   Avestan  " vi - zainti" = to hit against ;  Persian "gazidan" = hit against...


The name is _*Gh*azi Orhan_, not _*G*azi Orhan_. Be careful not to confuse the letters گ (g) and غ (gh) of the Persian version of the Arabic alphabet. They do *not* sound the same in Persian.

EDIT: Crossed with #19


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## Canbek

berndf, shortly, is it with Ar  or Or-Ur ?  Is it Khan-Han or Xan ?


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## berndf

It is اورخان. The second character, و, represents the vowel U~O. Arabic does not distinguish between U and O, so the spelling doesn't give you a clue if it is pronounced O or U, so اور can mean Or or Ur. The Alif in front (ا) has no phonetic meaning. When transcribing foreign (i.e. non-Arabic) words that start with a vowel other than A you put an alif in front to indicate that the following letter represents a vowel. The second part, خان, starts with a kh (خ). The Arabic and also the Persian pronunciation of this letter is [x]. The modern Turkish one is . In older Turkic languages I think it was [x] as well, but I am not sure.


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## fdb

I have not joined in this discussion so far, because nobody actually knows what the name Orhan means. It is an unsolved problem. This much is certain: there is no “or” meaning “great” in any Turkic language. The words listed on the “Starling” site (see number 9) all have “or” as their first syllable, but in none of the languages listed does “or” on its own have the meaning “great”. The link in no. 4 is to a list of baby names. The name in any case is Orhan, not *Örhan; this rules out the suggestion in no. 7. Some may think that the absence of a clear answer means that you can say whatever you like. I prefer to go with Wittgenstein: „Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen.“


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## ancalimon

There is some information about the or- root and words derived from this root but it's in Azerbaijan Turkic.

dergiler.ankara.edu.tr/dergiler/12/847/10722.pdf



> Or kökünün xüsusilə Oğuz qrupu türk dilləri üçün səciyyəvi olan Orxan antroponiminin yaranmasında da rolu vardır. Or və xan (kağan sözünün sıxılmış forması) sözlərindən meydana gələn Orxan adı qədim dövrlərdə formalaşan şəxs adlarımızdandır. Bu ad hələ şəxs adı kimi formalaşmazdan əvvəl titul bildirən söz kimi türk xalqlarının söz xəzinəsində mövcud olmuşdur. Orxan qədim türklərin İslamdan əvvəlki mifik dünyagörüşləri, anlayış və qavrayışları ilə bağlı bir söz olmuşdur. Belə ki, ilk inanclarında bütlərə, tanrı və tanrıçalara tapan türklər Yer Allahını Or xan, Or təkin və Erlik adlandırmışlar4. Daha sonrakı mərhələlərdə isə bu söz şəxs adı kimi formalaşaraq bugünə kimi antroponimlər sistemində qorunub qala bilmişdir.
> Şeriat koricidiır hakikat ordusunda,
> Senün için korunur hasıl ordu içinde -
> misralarından Yunus Əmrə “Divan”ında işlənilən ordu sözünün məna və şəkil dəyişdirmədən günümüzə qədər gəldiyini görmək olur.
> Or kökünün “dövlət” mənasını bildirməsinə əsaslanaraq ordu sözündə sözün əsasında bu mənanın durduğunu və du şəkilçisinin isə sözə “qoruyan, keşiyində duran ” kimi mənalar əlavə etdiyini söyləyə bilərik. O zaman bizə görə bütövlükdə ordu sözünün mənası “dövləti qoruyanlar”, “dövlətin xidmətində duranlar” olacaqdır. Bu halda bugün sözün tərkibində şəkilçi kimi çıxış edən du-nun vaxtilə müstəqil leksik vahid olması ehtimalı şübhəsizdir.



In short it says the following:

The name Orhan is an ancient Turkic name that was used before Islam. The ultimate meaning is "ground, earth, place".

According to writer, Some Turks believed in multiple deities and one of them was the Deity of Underword. He had names like Or Han, Or Tigin and Erlik. (edit: Tengriism is monotheistic but there are many deities. They are not gods but can be seen as "angels")

He further writes that the meaning of ORDU (horde, army) means the protector of the realm ~ country.


So I think people naming children as Orhan is a army tradition (as in the military rank of "or general") and it probably means "Khan~Ruler~Protector of Earth~Country"


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## Canbek

fdb said:


> I have not joined in this discussion so far, because nobody actually knows what the name Orhan means. It is an unsolved problem. This much is certain: there is no “or” meaning “great” in any Turkic language. The words listed on the “Starling” site (see number 9) all have “or” as their first syllable, but in none of the languages listed does “or” on its own have the meaning “great”. The link in no. 4 is to a list of baby names. The name in any case is Orhan, not *Örhan; this rules out the suggestion in no. 7. Some may think that the absence of a clear answer means that you can say whatever you like. I prefer to go with Wittgenstein: „Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen.“



One of my friends responded yesterday that Osman and Orhan share  the same " form"  or " root", I don't lnow what it is...Ur , as I mentioned before,means strike...How ever the problem with this verb is ( still I'm not sure  whether my argument applies to this specific matter or not)how  to form a proper name with Khan...You should say, " striking-Khan" which sounds a proper name  may be , I don't know...In this case  the name would be different...As I previously mentioned, the word "Or"  was listed  in my 1996 edition dictionary, but has disappeared in 1999  one...I'm very sure, other than " Or general", means  highest rank of the senior army offical, this Or has got no use in Turkey's Turkish...In Central Asian one, I couldn't find any...Probably the ones that  provide  helpful  contributions would be the Persian linguists...


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## aruniyan

Canbek said:


> One of my friends responded yesterday that Osman and Orhan share  the same " form"  or " root", I don't lnow what it is...Ur , as I mentioned before,means strike...How ever the problem with this verb is ( still I'm not sure  whether my argument applies to this specific matter or not)how  to form a proper name with Khan...You should say, " striking-Khan" which sounds a proper name  may be , I don't know...In this case  the name would be different...As I previously mentioned, the word "Or"  was listed  in my 1996 edition dictionary, but has disappeared in 1999  one...I'm very sure, other than " Or general", means  highest rank of the senior army offical, this Or has got no use in Turkey's Turkish...In Central Asian one, I couldn't find any...Probably the ones that  provide  helpful  contributions would be the Persian linguists...




How about this?


http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/re...=/data/alt/altet&text_number=1607&root=config

Altaic etymology: Altaic etymology





Meaning: on top, high above
Russian meaning: наверху, высоко над
Old Turkic: üze / öze (Orkh., OUygh.)
Karakhanid: üze (MK)
Turkish: üzer 'upper part'
Middle Turkic: üze (Pav. C., Бор. Бад.)
Sary-Yughur: üze, üzi
Azerbaidzhan: üzäri
Oyrat: üzeri
Chuvash: vir (<*ö̆ŕ)
Yakut: ǖhe, üöhe
Dolgan: ühe, üöhe

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_*uyar*_ in Tamil also means High, Sanskrit also has  _*uttar, upar*_ etc... I am not saying these are related but looks similar sounding.


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## ancalimon

There is also the Proto-Turkic OZ which is related with the trance of shamans (the form of human soul that is between it's first created form and it's last form that enters the body. This information comes from a real Saka shaman. He told me this: "to become oz was practiced by my ancestors. Today nobody is able to achieve this. The only way to gain access to the 7th branch of tree of life is to free your mind to the point that you become oz. There you tie your spirit horse and Tengri sends its angels to counsel you about what you wish to know") and the root to other words like ozan (bard) and even özgür (free).
I remember reading that Osman might have existed in old Turkic. But I don't think this is correct and Osman only exists in Arabic. Osman Khan changed his name to Osman probably because of Islam.

There is also a mysterious thing. The sword of Hz. Osman which is accepted as a holy relic that is in Topkapı Museum has the IVI tamga which is the tamga of the Kayı clan of Oghuz. (The same tamga was also used by some Bulgars before they became Slavs.)

Also when we are talking about Turkic, it's more often than not that the R sound is replaced with S-Z sound and vise versa because of the Ogur~Oghuz dialect shift.


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## berndf

fdb said:


> I prefer to go with Wittgenstein: „Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen.“


That sounds like a good idea. Do you think that that casts doubt on the analysis اور plus خان altogether or would you still go with the explanation خان = _leader _and just say, we don't know that the first syllable meant?


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## fdb

I adhere to the principle that if you cannot explain the whole word there is no point in trying to explain part of it.


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## berndf

Sounds good to me.


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## ancalimon

I looked at some other Turkish - Turkic words that have the ~or sylable in them and found a pattern.

ordu: army, horde
ordu: sanctuary
-lar: plural suffix
orman: forest
or: warcry, shouting calling of many people,
yardım: help
sar: to wrap up, to swathe, to clothe
orna: to settle, to anchor
ori: to praise oneself

These are either related to "plurality" or "protection" or both.

So it may be related to protection or maybe praising.

It's possbile to Orhan could mean something like "protector khan" or "praised khan"


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