# EN: She wants the boy taught his alphabet



## margauxktp

She wants the boy taught his alphabet

Bonjour,

Mon professeur de version a employé cette expression aujourd'hui et je ne l'ai jamais entendu?

C'est peut-être parce que je suis française mais la phrase sonne juste tout simplement bizarrement. Peut-être que '*TAUGHT*' est mal placé ?

A l'oreille, je pense que 'she wants the boy his alphabet *TAUGHT*' sonne mieux... ou peut-être pas...?

L'expression existe vraiment? Si oui, y'a-t-il une règle en particulier dans ce cas-là?


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## Gérard Napalinex

Bonjour,

La forme "vouloir que qqun soit + adj./part.passé" se traduit effectivement par "to want someone + adj./part.passé" 
Je veux qu'il soit tué = I want him killed
"She wants him taught" doit donc être compris comme "Elle veut qu'il soit instruit de / Elle veut que lui soit enseigné" (en français courant: "elle veut qu'on lui enseigne")
La place d'un éventuel complément (ici, ce qui est enseigné, ie l'alphabet) est naturellement à la suite de cette structure.

En bref: pas choqué !


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## guillaumedemanzac

It's a short form of the passive - She wants her son *to be* taught the Alphabet - she doesn't believe in this modern way of teaching phonics instead of the ABC - the way we *were taught* in the good old days.

Other examples of this common shortening of verbs :

I want him (to be) locked up for molesting my daughter like that.

They want him (to be) executed for that horrific murder.

I would like to see him (be/being)forgiven and (be/being) pardoned.


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## Hildy1

I agree with the posters above that it is a passive form. However, it is not quite like the examples that they give, where the *direct object* of an active verb becomes the subject of a passive verb.

Active form: _The boss gave a bonus to the employees._
Passive form: _A bonus was given to the employees by the boss._

Active form: _I want the instructor to teach the alphabet to the children._
Passive form: _I want the alphabet (to be) taught to the children._

So far, so good. Something similar can be done in many languages.

Now to complicate matters: In English (and possibly in other languages?), the *indirect* *object* can sometimes become the subject of a passive verb, and there can still be a direct object.

Active form: _The boss gave a bonus to the employees._
Passive form: _The employees were given a bonus by the boss_.

Active form: _I want the instructor to teach the alphabet to the children._
Passive form: _I want the children (to be) taught the alphabet._


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## Gérard Napalinex

Hildy1 said:


> Now to complicate matters: In English (and possibly in other languages?), the *indirect* *object* can sometimes become the subject of a passive verb, and there can still be a direct object.
> 
> Active form: _I want the instructor to teach the alphabet to the children._
> Passive form: _I want the children (to be) taught the alphabet._



And to complicate matters even more: in that case, the preposition introducing the indirect object (_ie_ to) merely disappears, which make it difficult for unexperienced readers to distinguish the indirect object from the direct objet.
I don't think this would be acceptable: _I want the children taught the alphabet *to*. _


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## guillaumedemanzac

A preposition is not a word to end a sentence up with.  

I want my children (to be) taught the ABC *by* their teachers. 
All teachers should teach the ABC* to* their students/children.


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## guillaumedemanzac

Gérard Napalinex said:


> I don't think this would be acceptable:
> _I want the children taught the alphabet *to*. _



Nobut you can (as always with passive tenses) change it round :   I want the alphabet (to be) taught *to* all the children in THIS school.         I want you teachers to teach the alphabet to all the children in this school.


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## Terrae novae

"she wants the boy *to be *taught his alphabet" 

Mais, _elle veut le garçon être enseigné son alphabet _does not sound right in French.  I would just say "she wants to teach the boy the alphabet," ou, en français "_elle veut enseigner le garçon __l'alphabet._" 

Stay away from the passive until you are deeply immersed in the language, even us natives get it wrong.


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## Hildy1

Terrae novae said:


> I would just say "she wants to teach the boy the alphabet,"



1. "She wants to teach the boy the alphabet."
Though this is of course a good sentence, it does not mean the same thing as 
2. "She wants the boy taught the alphabet."

In sentence 1, she wants to do the teaching. In sentence 2, we don't know who is supposed to do the teaching. Most likely it is another person.


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## atcheque

Bonjour,


Terrae novae said:


> en français "_elle veut enseigner le garçon __l'alphabet._"



"_elle veut enseigner __l'alphabet__ *au* garçon._"


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## Terrae novae

Désolée, j'ai oublié qu'on doit modifier l'ordre de la phrase. Ma faute


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## guillaumedemanzac

The "to be taught" is passive i.e. by someone.
She wants to teach the boy the alphabet = actively herself doing the teaching.
You can also use the subjunctive in English which sounds archaic and pedantic.
She wishes that the boy be taught the Alphabet  (or possibly)
She wishes that the boy were taught the Alphabet.
However, the subjunctive sounds better in French and the passive is better in English.
Elle veut que le ABC soit enseigné à tous les enfants à partir de 4/5/6 ans.
She wished/es that her child were/be taught the alphabet at the start of junior school.


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## dictionarynut

In English the form under discussion is common, clear and probably better than longer possibilities.   For instance, "I want that done."  is perfectly formed and clear (assuming we know what "that" is and what should be done to it.
"I want him taught properly" is equally well formed and clear.   This form is very strong; it is practically a command rather than a request.   The person speaking may well be shouting or quite emphatic in tone.


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## guillaumedemanzac

@ dictionary nut

also  : I want that done/cooked/painted properly.
I want all children brought up knowing that ......
He wants his wife to come home/ He wants his wife punished for running away.
She wants him executed for what he did to her.

As you say, the "what" or "that" or "it" must be clear from the context, and the "subject" of the wish _*can *_be included or omitted depending on the situation e.g. I want *that* done *by* a professional. I think *that *should be done *by* the teacher not *by* the parent = I want *that* done *by *the teacher.

Note that the use of *by *shows the hidden passive form = I want that (to be) done *by* the teacher. I want that (to be) cooked *by* a proper cook!


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## Bezoard

La difficulté de Margauxktp vient du fait que _to teach_, enseigner, se construit avec le double accusatif en anglais (comme le latin, _doceo pueros grammaticam_), chose que nous ne connaissons pas en français. Il en résulte ces formes passives très simples, qu'on doit contourner pour les traduire en français : _elle veut qu'on apprenne l'alphabet au garçon_. Dans bien des cas, quand le contexte est clair, on pourra alléger la traduction en _"elle veut que le garçon apprenne l'alphabet", _mais ce n'est pas une traduction fidèle puisque cela peut signifier autre chose.


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