# Yeah, yup, yep



## Cathy Rose

In the past few days, I've read these words [yeah, yup, yep]  over and over again in responses to questions posed on the reference. As a general rule, when would you use these words in writing?  I was taught that the answer to that question is, "Never!"  However, I am old, and things may have changed.


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## Packard

*Nope*. Never use "yeah", "yup" or "yep" when writing (and I never use "nope" either).

I am embarrassed to say that I frequently hear myself say, "yeah" in conversation. I've quite given up on fixing that problem (a hectoring wife would probably solve it, but the price seems too steep for the nature of the problem).


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## Franzi

I would use 'yeah' in pretty much anything less formal than an essay.  'Yup' and 'yep' I would only use in highly informal contexts like blog comments and real time chats.  The real question is, how do people classify Word Reference unconsciously?


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## Cathy Rose

Franzi said:


> I would use 'yeah' in pretty much anything less formal than an essay.  'Yup' and 'yep' I would only use in highly informal contexts like blog comments and real time chats.  The real question is, how do people classify Word Reference unconsciously?



Good point, Franzi.  But do you think it sends the wrong message to non-native speakers?


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## Franzi

Cathy Rose said:


> Good point, Franzi. But do you think it sends the wrong message to non-native speakers?


 
That depends: How formal are they expecting our English to be?  

It's a lucky foreign language learner who's at a level where they can worry about choosing an appropriate register.  I'd think they'd have enough to worry about with sorting out the different dialects of English represented here.  (Not that having diverse dialects represented is a bad thing!)  It's true that 'yeah' is fairly informal, but then we're posting somewhere that has graphical emoticons enabled.


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## Thomas Tompion

The rules say: Members are required to make their best attempt to write in standard English in this forum. That includes using _*capital letters*_ and _*punctuation*_.

I interpret that as meaning that we say yes and no, and cut out nope's and other loose familiar formulae which are acceptable in informal speech to some people, but potentially irritating to people one doesn't know, because perhaps suggesting overfamiliarity.

I feel it's best on the web - where we don't know each other, and can't gesture or provide intonation; where we have new members joining continuously, some of whom think it's amusing to be rude, and some of whom take time to realize that we are serious, and work best when we are polite - to keep a certain reserve, however strange it may seem to some.


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## gaer

Thomas Tompion said:


> The rules say: Members are required to make their best attempt to write in standard English in this forum. That includes using _*capital letters*_ and _*punctuation*_.
> 
> I interpret that as meaning that we say yes and no, and cut out nope's and other loose familiar formulae which are acceptable in informal speech to some people, but potentially irritating to people one doesn't know, because perhaps suggesting overfamiliarity.
> 
> I feel it's best on the web - where we don't know each other, and can't gesture or provide intonation; where we have new members joining continuously, some of whom think it's amusing to be rude, and some of whom take time to realize that we are serious, and work best when we are polite - to keep a certain reserve, however strange it may seem to some.


The greatest potential problem I see is that people who are learning English might form extremely rude habits, unintentionally, by mimicking informal usage without understanding the exact situations in which such usage is appropriate or not appropriate.

When I'm teaching, I will frequently say,"Yeah!" with a great deal of enthusiasm accompanied by a pat on the shoulder or a little clapping.

This is a special case. It involves appropriate gestures, body language, and so on.

In this environment, the possibility of miscommunication is always very high because we can't see and hear each other.

I think a bit of extra formality is a small price to pay for clear communication and the avoidance of even the appearance of impoliteness.


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## ewie

*Guilty as charged*, Cathy: I'm a chronic _yepper_.  (But only an occasional _noper_.)
I do (sometimes, sort of) feel at a disadvantage here in that I never *ever* write anything formal ~ I read formal stuff, yeah, but I just don't write it.
Erm...
And I _erm_ a lot: I say it a lot when I'm speaking, I'm 'speaking' while I'm writing here, so I _write_ it.  I write down on the page/screen whatever's going on in my bonce head.
I should be more careful: I apologize.

_Wow! that was coherent, ewie ~ thanks!_


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## gasman

but potentially irritating to people one doesn't know,

I would suggest, even more irritating to people one does know, and who don't like the language misused.


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## ewie

(I'm putting this whole post in parentheses because it's not strictly relevant.
_MIS_USAGE = USAGE.  Tens-if-not-hundreds of millions of people 'misuse' English every day.  That *is* English.)


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## bibliolept

I'm an inveterate "yeah-er." I cannot help it and have decided it's just part of my personality and of how my brain "functions." On the other hand, I never feel tempted to use it in writing.

Yes, yeah and yup are both indefensible. Like OK and alright, one should be careful to use them only on some occasions or in certain contexts. Like OK and alright, they're now a perfectly valid part of the living language.


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## ewie

To me _yes, yeah_ and _yep_ have quite different 'meanings' (as do _no, nope _and _nah._)
Unfortunately a little too much methylated spirits wine water has flown flowed flew flowed under the bridge this evening for me to put my finger on etc.


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## Cathy Rose

Yes. I, who should know better, was gently reprimanded by an attorney for saying "yeah" in a sworn deposition.  Until that point in my life, I was operating under the illusion that the word had never passed through my lips. Apparently, I was an unconscious yeah-er.  I entered a 12-step program, but I don't think I have purged the word completely from my spoken vocabulary.  But I still, in writing, try to set a good example.  

One other thought: Is there a generation gap here?  I'm old enough to be Ewie's (much) older sister, and I've noticed that the young folk (at least those who post their ages) seem to feel more kindly toward the use of _yeah_. Discuss.


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## Eigenfunction

If you are representing dialect or slang speech, then you could write "yeah" etc. Otherwise, yes is the formal correct way to write it. I too use yeah, yep and yes in different situations to mean slightly different things. For me, yeah is quite general and can be said in different ways, yep is very affirmative and quite cheerful, while yes is very formal to the point of being slightly aggressive in a sibilant sort of way.


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## ewie

Eigenfunction said:


> I too use yeah, yep and yes in different situations to mean slightly different things. For me, yeah is quite general and can be said in different ways, yep is very affirmative and quite cheerful, while yes is very formal to the point of being slightly aggressive in a sibilant sort of way.


Ooh Eigen, where have you been all my life? Your _yes/yeah/yep_ tally perfectly with mine (I think)

Cathy: I risk the wrath of a zillion pedants but I might go so far as to say that _yeah_ is the 'neutral' version, _yes_ the highly formal one, and _yep_ the informal one.


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## timpeac

What ewie said. Yeah!


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## gasman

while yes is very formal to the point of being slightly aggressive in a sibilant sort of way.

I really don't believe I am aggressive, or even pushy, nor do I hiss, but I do like to stick to the "language as she is spoke" and that means correct pronunciation, and, if possible, usage. I do use standard abbreviations such as don't or didn't, but the language is part of me, and I hate to see it abused. And yes, I say yes, and no, and I see, but aggression is not part of my nature, so I won't hiss at you, just point out that I believe if doing something is worthwhile it is best done well, and that applies as much to spoken language as to the written form.


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## Forero

I think the forum guidelines say standard, not formal.  "Yeah" is standard informal English.  We usually replace it with "yes" in writing, even very informal writing, but we might write "yeah" when we need to be clear that we mean "yeah", not "yes", and are not being formal.

What is nonstandard is writing "ye" or "yea" for "yeah".  "Ye" is a second person pronoun, usually plural, and "yea" is a formal word (pronounced "yay") or an alternative spelling for "yay".  The formal "yea" means "indeed" in literature and "yes" or "affirmative" in voice voting.


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## timpeac

Forero said:


> I think the forum guidelines say standard, not formal. "Yeah" is standard informal English. We usually replace it with "yes" in writing, even very informal writing, but we might write "yeah" when we need to be clear that we mean "yeah", not "yes", and are not being formal.
> 
> What is nonstandard is writing "ye" or "yea" for "yeah". "Ye" is a second person pronoun, usually plural, and "yea" is a formal word (pronounced "yay") or an alternative spelling for "yay". The formal "yea" means "indeed" in literature and "yes" or "affirmative" in voice voting.


My earlier reply was a bit flippant, but I think this says it very well. The forums are definitely against "chatspeak" as such, but here "yeah" "yep" "yes" etc are effectively different words. We may criticise the style of users for such choices (and indeed perhaps should for the benefit of non-native speakers since the basic point that "yes" is really the only acceptable alternative in a formal written context is true) but that remains a preference rather than a rule. I also think that in older times when paper was precious and putting pen to paper a more serious event than typing a post or an email such written correspondence was by nature more formal.


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## Eigenfunction

gasman said:


> the language is part of me, and I hate to see it abused.



I too love and respect the English language, but you could argue that language evolves by being abused, otherwise we'd still be speaking some sort of grunting proto-language. In this case, I think see that yes (If it was ever really the only affirmative at any point in the history of English, which I doubt) has evolved into several different forms which allow us to add yet more meaning to the syllable. Now we can not only affirm something, but also show how enthusiastic we are about this affirmation.

I think perhaps the reasons 'yes' seems more aggressive is that it is either short or sibilant. Either you say yes quite quickly, which is violent, or you say it slowly with a long sibilant ess, reminiscent of snakes which over the course of time man has learnt to avoid due to the fact many are dangerous to humans. As far as I can see, any other pronunciation of yes is approaching the other forms, yeah etc.

Personally I quite like 'aye'.


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## Forero

As far as the etymology, _yes_ is a contraction of _yea sie_ (I may have the spelling wrong), "indeed (may it) be".  _Yea_ is at least a modern spelling of an older form without the _sie_.


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## ruffy

Eigenfunction said:


> I think perhaps the reasons 'yes' seems more aggressive is that it is either short or sibilant. Either you say yes quite quickly, which is violent, or you say it slowly with a long sibilant ess, reminiscent of snakes which over the course of time man has learnt to avoid due to the fact many are dangerous to humans. As far as I can see, any other pronunciation of yes is approaching the other forms, yeah etc.
> 
> Personally I quite like 'aye'.


 

I couldn't agree more with what you say!  Language is ever-changing and certainly not immutable.

And _aye, _I'd agree with you on the last comment.  But then again my every-day spoken language is 'lallans' Scots, so _aye_ is used more frequently than _yes._


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## ewie

Eigenfunction said:


> Personally I quite like 'aye'.


Ditto again ~ I'd quite forgotten that I use _aye_ as well.  So _yes, yeah, yep, aye, uh-huh, _even_ yup _on occasion: *and they all 'mean' something slightly different from one another.*


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## Rivendell

Being a non-native speaker I learnt English at school in my country: it was formal English with 'yes' and 'no'. When I first travelled abroad, I found out that most people used 'yeah' and 'yep' (yes, in a cheerful way) instead and I didn't even know how to write it. If that's what most people say, why wasn't I taught at school?? 

I think it is not such a bad idea to write these expressions that have become popular and if you worry about foreign students learning English... believe me, most of them are not as lucky as I was and they don't have the chance (or just don't want) to travel abroad, so they only learn from reading books, throught the Internet and in places like this forum. Yeah, let them see these words exist and little by little they will learn the correct use. 

I just thought you'd like to hear my opinion...


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## Packard

In general my posts resemble my speech more than they resemble my written discourse.

I do make an effort to make my posts more like writing when I post in WordReference. I have observed that some non-native members are learning English from watching television. Learning English from watching the Simpsons, for example, requires an antidote. I suggest that the antidote should be WordReference.

For that reason we should avoid slang, and non-standard English. (When I was in grade school, "yeah" was called "slang".)


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## cuchuflete

A thorough search may prove me wrong, but I tend not to use nope, yeah, yeh, yup or yep with any frequency in these forums.  They are not, in AE, wrong; they are informal and standard.  We may have yet another AE/BE distinction for _nope_, which a good BE
dictionary calls non-standard.  

Here are results from a good AE dictionary, the Random House Unabridged (RHUD), and two publications of the Oxford University Press, the Compact OED and the Advanced Learners Dictionary:

nope –adverb Informal. RHUD
yeah –adverb Informal. RHUD
yep –adverb, noun Informal. RHUD
yup –adverb, noun Informal.RHUD


Compact OED

yeah

(also yeh)

  • exclamation & noun informal _non-standard_ spelling of YES.

Nope  not listed
yep not listed
yup not listed

Oxford Advanced Learners Dict.

nope exclamation (informal) used to say ‘no’  (North Amer. English)
yeah exclamation (informal) yes 
yep exclamation (informal) used to say ‘yes’
yup   not listed


I'm surprised that some people have called yes aggressive.  For me it's neither more nor less than a very ordinary affirmative word.  Do these people refer to yeah/nope questions, as opposed to the rather unaggressive yes/no variety?


This may seem a bit off topic, but for general amusement here are the forum Guidelines. (I had a hand in drafting these, so take this with a grain of salt.)



> The WordReference Forums Guidelines
> Mission Statement
> 
> I. WordReference.com provides Forums for exchanges about translation, word usage, terminology equivalency and other linguistic topics.
> 
> II. The Forums promote learning and maintain an atmosphere that is _serious, academic_ and collaborative, with a respectful, helpful and cordial tone.
> 
> III. We welcome members who share our goals and philosophy, and agree to act in accord with the rules and guidelines of the Forums.


_emphasis added_

I don't find any of the words in question objectionable, but I don't think they meet the forum standard of "serious, academic".  As an active member, I don't use them much if at all.  As a moderator I do not censor them, unless they are part of a collection of sloppy, non-standard writing.  

This thread raises a good question about the responsibility of native speakers to present an example to learners of English.  Suppose a native were to write a good post in standard, formal (serious, academic) English, and include a _nope_ or a _yeah_.  As a forero or as a mod, should somebody point out the dissonance?  That's a little different from a good, helpful post written entirely in an informal and standard style.


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## panjandrum

Rivendell said:


> [...]
> Yeah, let them see these words exist and little by little they will learn the correct use.
> [...]


The risk is that people may get the impression that only these words exist.
The challenge is to make sure that people understand the normal, formal, standard (insert adjective of choice) form on which the alternative forms are based - AND to make sure they understand the more relaxed forms too. I think it is easier to adapt from the former to the latter than vice versa 

Which takes me back to another point that we sometimes forget in this forum: many people reading these threads are seeking to become fluent in "exam-passing" English.


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## ruffy

Eigenfunction said:


> Personally I quite like 'aye'.


 
Aye is great, although it does have two meanings in Scots:

1) Is to express assent - synonymous with 'yes' which is thought to originate from 16th Century English.  Most likely from the first person personal pronoun 'I'
2) Is the archaic middle-English/present-day Scots adverb for 'always'/'still'/'forever' (derived from Old norse - ei, ey and related to the Latin _aevum_ (age) and Greek _aie(i) _'ever'


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## Grop

As a non-native speaker, I know I have had the same surprise as Rivendell mentionned (although these questions are also present in other languages as well). And there was a time when I would always say yeah, even though it was often inappropriate - which I didn't know.

In the view that non-native speakers are somehow learning English on WR forums, I think it would be wrong to pretend that informal English (and yeah-likes) does not exist.

However, I think native speakers should be clear when they are being informal and when they are not. I think an informal phrase in an informal post (such as Ewie's for instance) is not misleading, while an informal word hidden in a formal-looking post can be.

(Unless of course, you give hints there is something tricky in your phrase).


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## gaer

cuchuflete said:


> A thorough search may prove me wrong, but I tend not to use nope, yeah, yeh, yup or yep with any frequency in these forums. They are not, in AE, wrong; they are informal and standard. We may have yet another AE/BE distinction for _nope_, which a good BE dictionary calls non-standard.


I have a few thoughts:

First, knowing standard English is immensely useful for students who may visit any one of countless countries in which English is spoken. In short, "yes" and "no" work anywhere.

Second, there is no need to use such words as yeah, yup, yep. It is only necessary to understand them.

Third, I see nothing wrong in teaching these informal words as long as the idea is stressed that they _may_ sound less polite.

Finally, common sense tells all of us that "yes" and "no" can be extremely rude, while the less formal forms may not be rude at all. For example:

1) "No. You are completely wrong." (very rude in my opinion)
2) "Yup. I couldn't agree with you more. That's an excellent idea." (perfectly polite in my opinion)

As always, context is the most important factor.

Gaer


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## Loob

I don't use them in the forums; I do use them in PMs.

I'm not sure what that says about me and/or the forms concerned....


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## Packard

I tell my dog, "Yes, Good boy!" and "No!  Bad boy!"

I wonder why I never say "Yeah, Good boy" and yet I can't stop saying "yeah" in conversations.

(I'd us an "erm..." but I never quite know when to use one.)


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## Janey UK

I'm with the 'yeah' camp. I know I say it often - probably at least as often as I say 'yes' - and there are times when nothing but a 'yeah' would seem to fit the occasion. 

I know I've given utterance to the odd 'yep' in my time too (though I can't vouch for having ever said 'yup' or 'nope').  I know I've definitely typed 'yep' in the occasional Skype conversation with my Italian friends...it's a fast and lighthearted affirmative and - at least in my opinion - a relatively harmless and innocuous word. Certainly it often seems much more friendly than saying 'yes'. 

However, I write 'yeah/yep' rarely, and then only in the most informal types of writing. When talking to my Italian friends I usually mention that yeah/yep are colloquial - but they seem to realise that anyway! Luckily they're not studying English to pass formal exams, and they've all expressed a desire to sound 'more English and more natural'. If they were studying for exams and relying on me to set them an example I'd probably try to be more careful. 

In my opinion, though, we're doing a disservice to non-native speakers if we encourage them always to speak as though they've just stepped out of the pages of a dictionary or a grammar textbook. The language is living and evolving, and it's hardly an assault to the ears to hear 'yeah' uttered in the spoken language. I would have thought it was a relatively simple thing to point out to non-native speakers that 'yeah/yep/yup' are fine for every day colloquial speech, but are better avoided in formal spoken or written forms of communication. It seems a little insulting to non-native speakers to assume that they won't be able to grasp when it's acceptable to be informal , and when it's not acceptable.


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## Cathy Rose

Grop said:


> However, I think native speakers should be clear when they are being informal and when they are not. I think an informal phrase in an informal post (such as Ewie's for instance) is not misleading, while an informal word hidden in a formal-looking post can be.



Thank you.  This is more or less what I was looking for ~ the opinion of a non-native speaker.  I think what has bothered me a _little_ is the fact that so many "serious" posts begin with, "Yeah, you're right about that."  I say "yeah" and "nah" a lot (didn't realize it until recently, but I do) and I write that way when I'm fairly certain that people will not misunderstand me.  I think a non-native speaker knows when someone on the forum is kidding around, but in the short time I've posted here, I've seen an increase in "yeah," "gonna," "wanna," and "kinda sorta," from both native and non-native speakers.  If non-native speakers write this way on the TOEFL, they will fail, and I think we do them a disservice to model that kind of writing for them. I'm just wondering when we descend to the level of informality where we use phrases such as "I might could" (maybe I'll do that and maybe I won't) or "I use-ta could" (at one time I could do this, but I no longer have that talent).  This is the language I heard when I student taught in Appalachia. As someone else said, non-native speakers have ample opportunity to learn this kind of English by watching sitcoms and animated series.  This is officially the end of my rant.


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## gaer

Cathy Rose said:


> I think a non-native speaker knows when someone on the forum is kidding around, but in the short time I've posted here, I've seen an increase in "yeah," "gonna," "wanna," and "kinda sorta," from both native and non-native speakers. *If non-native speakers write this way on the TOEFL, they will fail, and I think we do them a disservice to model that kind of writing for them*.


This is the reason I attempt to be especially careful when posting messages that might possibly be read by anyone in the forum. Also, I still believe that it is better to start off learning what is standard in a language before experimenting with less standard forms, even though I have absolutely no objection to them.


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## panjandrum

An exhaustive survey of this forum in the last week, excluding this thread, shows:
yeah - 37
yep - 5
yup - 3
nope - 2


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## gaer

Packard said:


> The reason I'm especially careful is because of the certainty if I screw up I'd hear it from someone--and usually in some embarrassing way (instead of a PM saying, _"Hey, quick! Before anyone else sees, you better make that correction...")_


Yeah, I know!


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## Packard

panjandrum said:


> An exhaustive survey of this forum in the last week, excluding this thread, shows:
> yeah - 37
> yep - 5
> yup - 3
> nope - 2


 

One of those "nopes" was mine, given in jest.  You might not want to count that one.


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## ewie

There are times when _nope_ just seems more 'appropriate' than _no _~ see *THIS THREAD* post #12 where I use (and _insist_ on using) _nope_ because it's not only somehow more categorical than _no_ but a darn sight _friendlier_ too.


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## Thomas Tompion

I can see that some people may regard it as friendlier, but others may regard it as irritatingly informal and loose. Yes and No, on paper to people you've never met, seem to me safer and unexceptionable.


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## gaer

Thomas Tompion said:


> I can see that some people may regard it as friendlier, but others may regard it as irritatingly informal and loose. Yes and No, on paper to people you've never met, seem to me safer and unexceptionable.


It's equally possible that a simple "no", combined with a short, clipped phrase, will seem irritatingly cold, distant and arrogant.

For instance this, which I've seen far too many times:

"No. You're wrong."

And nothing more.

I find something like this far more polite:

Nope. I don't think so. 

The same people who insist on formality at all times are often the same people who condemn the usage of anything else that lightens things up, such as an emoticon.

Gaer


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## Thomas Tompion

For me, Gaer, the impolite part of No, you're wrong is the you're wrong bit. I'd much prefer No, I can't agree with you to Nope, I can't agree with you. 

I prefer No, you're wrong to Nope, you're wrong and don't see the nope as softening anything. I regard it as further mild irritation.

I fully agree that we need to use polite formulae on paper if we are to get our views across without clouding them with irritation.

Your attempt to soften up the formalists may be based on fact, but I'd like a bit of evidence before I'm persuaded. The fact that the people you are talking about don't use emoticons doesn't mean that they condemn them, of course. I'd also add that the question was about writing in general and not just communication on a forum.  In most circumstances writers don't have ready access to emoticons.


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## natkretep

I'm an 'aye' (or do you spell that 'ay'?) person myself - no doubt from having lived in Scotland - but I confine it to family conversations.



ruffy said:


> Aye is great, although it does have two meanings in Scots:
> 
> 1) Is to express assent - synonymous with 'yes' which is thought to originate from 16th Century English.  Most likely from the first person personal pronoun 'I'
> 2) Is the archaic middle-English/present-day Scots adverb for 'always'/'still'/'forever' (derived from Old norse - ei, ey and related to the Latin _aevum_ (age) and Greek _aie(i) _'ever'



Wouldn't (2) be pronounced differently from (1)? (1) is normally /aɪ/ for me, and (2) is /eɪ/.


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