# Fuck you - gramática



## pcplus

Sé lo que significa "Fuck you!", pero me gustaría descifrarlo gramaticalmente, ya que tengo una duda:

En realidad se trata de 

1)(I) fuck you! - omisión del sujeto de primera persona
2)fuck you! - imperativo, siguiendo el ejemplo de: Run! (¡Corre!), o "You fool!" (¡Tonto!)

También me interesa saber si en inglés coloquial, cuando se omite el sujeto, sólo se omite en primera persona del singular (I) o plural (we), o eso no es cierto, y cuando lo vemos o lo oimos se trata de una omisión únicamente de segunda persona del plural (You):


Ex. Got to read the book


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## arosemp

En inglés no se deberían omitir los sujetos porque resulta confuso 
Imagina que alguien dice "Buy food" omitiendo el sujeto... Esto podría ser (I, you, we, they) buy food... Demasiadas opciones
"Buy food" sería entonces el imperativo: "(Tú)Compra comida/(Ud.)Compre comida/(Uds.) Compren comida"

En conclusión "F*ck you" sería el imperativo equivalente a la expresión "J*dete, J*dase,J*danse"
Si ultilizas sujeto, pues la accion la haría el sujeto sobre el objeto directo


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## grahamcracker

It is a profane and vulgar insult.


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## duvija

_Studies out in left field_

Aquí podés ver cómo se describe. El primer artículo (creo que no está subido a la internet) es precisamente una discusión sobre 'fuck you'. Fijate a ver si lo encontrás. (James McCawley fue mi profesor más interesante. Un genio, el tipo).


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## duvija

¡ Lo encontré ! Está aquí .  A pesar del tema, la discusión es impecable.


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## Wandering JJ

duvija said:


> ¡ Lo encontré ! Está aquí . A pesar del tema, la discusión es impecable.


What a brilliant article. I shall have to read it again - somewhat complex.


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## grahamcracker

Wandering JJ said:


> What a brilliant article. I shall have to read it again - somewhat complex.


Sorry but it strikes me as strange that someone would consider it something worthy of academic pursuit.


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## pcplus

arosemp said:


> En inglés no se deberían omitir los sujetos porque resulta confuso
> Imagina que alguien dice "Buy food" omitiendo el sujeto... Esto podría ser (I, you, we, they) buy food... Demasiadas opciones
> "Buy food" sería entonces el imperativo: "(Tú)Compra comida/(Ud.)Compre comida/(Uds.) Compren comida"
> 
> En conclusión "F*ck you" sería el imperativo equivalente a la expresión "J*dete, J*dase,J*danse"
> Si ultilizas sujeto, pues la accion la haría el sujeto sobre el objeto directo


Según lo que he aprendido del inglés coloquial, la omisión del sujeto en "slang", sólo corresponde a primera persona del singular (o plural en casos determinados), se puede apreciar en canciones:

(I) Don't wanna close the door, etc

Quien habla es quien la utiliza haciendo referencia a él mismo.


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## Outsider

pcplus said:


> En realidad se trata de
> 
> 1)(I) fuck you! - omisión del sujeto de primera persona


No creo que se pueda interpretar así. No hay sujeto omiso. A lo mejor el sujeto es "you". El sentido es "que te jodas [tú]".



pcplus said:


> 2)fuck you! - imperativo, siguiendo el ejemplo de: Run! (¡Corre!), o "You fool!" (¡Tonto!)


Aunque el profesor McCawley niega que esta frase sea imperativa, no tengo dudas de que su sentido se acerca más de 2) que de 1). En mi opinión es más propiamente la expresión de un deseo (o maldición), es decir tiene sentido optativo.

Añado que frases hechas como esta no son buenas para estudiar la gramática del inglés en general, porque su sintáxis muchas veces es incomún.


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## roanheads

> Añado que frases hechas como esta no son buenas para estudiar la gramática del inglés en general, porque su sintáxis muchas veces es incomún.



De acuerdo, es el lenguaje de la calle y debe quedarse en la calle a mi parecer.


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## duvija

roanheads said:


> De acuerdo, es el lenguaje de la calle y debe quedarse en la calle a mi parecer.



Confío que no lo estén diciendo en serio. Estas expresiones a veces explican posibilidades gramaticales que tiene el lenguaje en cuestión, que no se dan en el idioma de la calle. ¿Leyeron el artículo? Ël encuentra dos verbos fuck1/fuck2 y logra demostrar lo que el inglés permite y lo que no. 
Todo ese libro (cuyas ediciones se agotan apenas salen a la venta, y la gente empieza a robarlo de las bibliotecas) tiene análisis excelentes con ejemplos del idioma real y no inventados (cosa que le da validez lingüística).

Obviamente, también nos matamos de risa, pero con Jim McCawley (de paso, uno de los lingüistas más reconocidos en el mundo, con una enorme producción en sintaxis/semántica/lógica lingüística y filosofía del lenguaje) aprendí que si das ejemplos graciosos, los estudiantes entienden mejor las 'reglas' que con ejemplos aburridos. Esto lo sigo usando en mi vida académica.


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## roanheads

duvija,
Como dice el refrán --- "cada uno a su lado "  ----


Saludos.


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## duvija

roanheads said:


> duvija,
> Como dice el refrán --- "cada uno a su lado " ----
> 
> 'cada uno por su lado' ¿querés decir?
> 
> 
> Saludos.


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## roanheads

duvija,
Ya te conozco, en el foro te defiendes bien. --- Pero acabo de averiguarlo en Google, los dos son posibles.

Saludos.


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## Uriel-

Creo que "fuck you", "damn you" y otras frases como esas no tienen mucho sentido literal, pero siguen la forma del imperativo, y por eso no tienen sujetos.

En el lenguage corriente se omita el sujeto solamente si dejas muy claro de quien refieres por contexto, pero normalmente no lo ves fuera de una conversación informal.


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## duvija

Uriel- said:


> Creo que "fuck you", "damn you" y otras frases como esas no tienen mucho sentido literal, pero siguen la forma del imperativo, y por eso no tienen sujetos.
> 
> En el lenguage corriente se omita el sujeto solamente si dejas muy claro de quien refieres por contexto, pero normalmente no lo ves fuera de una conversación informal.



Actually, in Linguistics, you see it quite a bit. The theory is that a language is meant to be used, and there are no 'four letter words'. The only stuff that's not allowed, is using words that aren't understood by all. Insults qualify as real words.


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## Peterdg

I have always seen it as a kind of a wish where the wish is reduced to its most important component:

Fuck you = May you be fucked
Damn Lyndon Johnson = May Lyndon Johnson be damned
Shit on L.J. = May shit descend on L.J.

Etc.

(Sorry for the "vocabulary") Fortunately, we don't have the "beep"s here in TV series so we do know our vocabulary.


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## duvija

Peterdg said:


> (Sorry for the "vocabulary") Fortunately, we don't have the "beep"s here in TV series so we do know our vocabulary.



Really? the bleeps/beeps here drive me crazy. As if the public isn't old enough...


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## Moritzchen

I don't get it!
These phrases are used every day. They are part of the living English language.
If we take the approach of some of the participants in this thread to another field, medical science shouldn't  investigate and try to find possible treatments for sexually transmitted diseases.


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## ribran

Peterdg said:


> I have always seen it as a kind of a wish where the wish is reduced to its most important component:
> 
> Fuck you = May you be fucked
> Damn Lyndon Johnson = May Lyndon Johnson be damned
> Shit on L.J. = May shit descend on L.J.
> 
> Etc.
> 
> (Sorry for the "vocabulary") Fortunately, we don't have the "beep"s here in TV series so we do know our vocabulary.



HAHAHA! Best laugh of the day.


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## duvija

Moritzchen said:


> I don't get it!
> These phrases are used every day. They are part of the living English language.
> If we take the approach of some of the participants in this thread to another field, medical science shouldn't investigate and try to find possible treatments for sexually transmitted diseases.



And a judge shouldn't marry people, cuz we know what happens next...


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## inib

Peterdg said:


> I have always seen it as a kind of a wish where the wish is reduced to its most important component:
> 
> Fuck you = May you be fucked
> Damn Lyndon Johnson = May Lyndon Johnson be damned
> Shit on L.J. = May shit descend on L.J.
> 
> Etc.
> 
> (Sorry for the "vocabulary") Fortunately, we don't have the "beep"s here in TV series so we do know our vocabulary.


I read the article, but have to admit that it was a bit too deep and long for me to take it all in. So, without wishing to refute the opinion of an expert linguist, my feelings are similar to Peter's. I can't see it as a second person imperative (is that what everyone is referring to when they say "imperative"?), because in that case it would surely be "Fuck yourself".


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## Uriel-

duvija said:


> Actually, in Linguistics, you see it quite a bit. The theory is that a language is meant to be used, and there are no 'four letter words'. The only stuff that's not allowed, is using words that aren't understood by all. Insults qualify as real words.



You see people omitting the subject pronoun a lot in linguistics?  Go back and reread my comment -- I wasn't talking about swearing in that part, I was addressing the general practice of dropping pronouns in conversation.


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## grahamcracker

duvija said:


> And a judge shouldn't marry people, cuz we know what happens next...


Baby judges?


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## duvija

grahamcracker said:


> Baby judges?



Could be worse


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## duvija

Uriel- said:


> You see people omitting the subject pronoun a lot in linguistics? Go back and reread my comment -- I wasn't talking about swearing in that part, I was addressing the general practice of dropping pronouns in conversation.



Yes, I was answering your question. And yes, if in normal speech, people skip the pronoun, it's going to be studied in Linguistics, to see how the mind works and the reasons to avoid that particular lack of ambiguity. You know very well that the third person pronoun can be avoided, cuz the verb carries that info. And it gets dropped more than other pronouns. Nothing magical here, just a fact.


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## grahamcracker

duvija said:


> Originally Posted by grahamcracker
> Baby judges?
> 
> 
> 
> Could be worse
Click to expand...


I couldn't help myself.


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## Uriel-

duvija said:


> Yes, I was answering your question. And yes, if in normal speech, people skip the pronoun, it's going to be studied in Linguistics, to see how the mind works and the reasons to avoid that particular lack of ambiguity. You know very well that the third person pronoun can be avoided, cuz the verb carries that info. And it gets dropped more than other pronouns. Nothing magical here, just a fact.



I was talking about English, not Spanish.  Our verbs don't change much, so we usually only drop pronouns in very informal speech.


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## Word Police

I disagree. BUY FOOD: compre comida. Es decir, cualquiera. Como el anuncio "Eat at Joe´s"


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## duvija

Uriel- said:


> I was talking about English, not Spanish. Our verbs don't change much, so we usually only drop pronouns in very informal speech.



Uh, I was also talking about English. (Spanish is what's called a "PRO-drop language", where we'd never use the pronoun unless we really need it) . In English, you'll repeat the pron. as many times as you want. But yes, you may try to skip some, when everything else is clear.


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## SevenDays

I see _fuck!_ simply as an interjection, a word that plays no syntactic role other than to express surprise or emotion, much like_ Oh!_ _Wow!_ _Damn!_ _Great Scott!_ _Holy Batman! ¡Rayos! _ etc. (and one of my favorites, _Damn and Blast!_).  As interjection, _fuck_ has lost its verbal meaning, which is why it is interchangeable with other interjections:
_Fuck, I've missed the train!_
_Damn and blast, I've missed the train!
Fuck you!_ is more interesting; here, _fuck _does retain some of its verbal meaning (transitive verb, taking the complement "you"), but _fuck you!_ nonetheless functions as an _interjection phrase_ (which expresses emotion), and not an imperative.
Cheers


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## inib

Peterdg said:


> I have always seen it as a kind of a wish where the wish is reduced to its most important component:
> 
> Fuck you = May you be fucked
> Damn Lyndon Johnson = May Lyndon Johnson be damned
> Shit on L.J. = May shit descend on L.J.
> 
> Etc.
> 
> (Sorry for the "vocabulary") Fortunately, we don't have the "beep"s here in TV series so we do know our vocabulary.


I agree.
I hope I will be forgiven for the comparison, but if we normally interpret "Bless you" as "May God bless you", it then follows that "Fuck you!" should be "May someone fuck you".
It is therefore closer literally to "¡Que te jodan!" than to "¡Jódete!".


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## scotu

grahamcracker said:


> It is a profane and vulgar insult.



"Fuck you" is vulgar but it is not profane,

Profane: 
characterized by irreverence or contempt for God or sacred principles or things; irreligious.


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