# Classical Persian: همي شده



## Qureshpor

In the following Hafiz couplet, what is the significance of "hame shudah"? Could you please translate the second line for me.


bulbul ba-naalah dar chaman aamad bah subH dam
az vasl-i-gul hame-shudah andar Khazaan judaa

Thanks.
Qureshpor


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## panjabigator

What does "khazaan" mean? Treasure?

Couldn't "shudah" belong at the end of the sentence, grammatically? ھمہ از وصلِ گل اندرِ خزان جدہ شدہ۔

Just my musings. Not at all a Persian expert.


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## Qureshpor

panjabigator said:


> What does "khazaan" mean? Treasure?
> 
> Couldn't "shudah" belong at the end of the sentence, grammatically? ھمہ از وصلِ گل اندرِ خزان جدہ شدہ۔
> 
> Just my musings. Not at all a Persian expert.



Khazaan (colloquial: Khizaan), where n is nasalised in Urdu is autumn (of course!)

I do not believe "hame" belongs else where.

Qureshpor


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## searcher123

Albeit I don't think this is a couple of Hafiz, because I can not found it in his poetical works.

بلبل به ناله در چمن آمد به صبح دم
از وصل گل همي شده اندر خزان جدا

But the meaning is (albeit you know, poem specially Persian poems are not translatable at all):

The nightingale start chitter in a ruthful song that why autumn must be separated me of flower?


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## Qureshpor

searcher123 said:


> Albeit I don't think this is a couple of Hafiz, because I can not found it in his poetical works.
> 
> بلبل به ناله در چمن آمد به صبح دم
> از وصل گل همي شده اندر خزان جدا
> 
> But the meaning is (albeit you know, poem specially Persian poems are not translatable at all):
> 
> The nightingale start chitter in a ruthful song that why autumn must be separated me of flower?



It is indeed Hafiz's. The Ghazal begins...

hingaam-i-nau-bahaar gul az bostaan judaa
yaa rab mabaad-o-hech kas az dostaan judaa

I am merely asking about "hame-shudah". Nothing else.

Thank you.


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## searcher123

Very interesting! I was encountered with this in another topic too (*this address*).

In any case, I'm sure your phrase is not همه شده, but همي شده that is short for همي شده است and means "كاملا شده است" at this poem.


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## Qureshpor

searcher123 said:


> Very interesting! I was encountered with this in another topic too (*this address*).
> 
> In any case, I'm sure your phrase is not همه شده, but همي شده that is short for همي شده است and means "كاملا شده است" at this poem.



Thank you for providing the link. I am curious as to how hame/hamii has come to mean "kaamilan" ! Is there a precedence for this?

Please allow me to offer the following explanation. Let me know what you think.

The past participle of a Persian verb, in addition to the normal past meaning has a secondary meaning too. This is best explained by examples. 

giriftah  = caught/held
kardah= done (as in kardah ast: S/he has done)

The secondary meaning is kardah = Having done
                                   giriftah = Having held

e.g. kaard-e ba-dast giriftah, guft (Chahaar Maqaalah)

Having held (or Hoding) a knife in his hand, he said.

Similarly "judaa kardan" = to seperate

            "judaa shudan"= to be seperated

So judaa shudah = Having been apart

and judaa hame-shudah = Continuously having been apart

So, the second line could be translated as:

Having continuously been apart from union during the autumn season.

What do you make of this?

Qureshpor


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## Qureshpor

Reviving an old thread (and bearing in mind the recent discussion on "chiidah chiidah", I would like an insight into "hame-shudah" in the Hafiz Ghazal.


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## HZKhan

میرے ذہن میں اس شعر کا یہ لفظی اردو ترجمہ بن رہا ہے:
خزاں میں وصلِ گل سے جدا ہوتے رہنے کے باعث، صبح کے وقت بلبل چمن میں نالہ زناں آیا۔

ویسے یہ ایک الحاقی شعر ہے، حافظ کا نہیں ہے۔


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## Qureshpor

^ For the sake of our Persian speaking friends, could you elaborate in English your perception of "me-shudah" in the shi3r in question. I've changed the word order slightly to make it a little easier to follow.

ba-subH dam bulbul ba-naalah dar chaman aamad
az vasl-i-gul andar xizaan *judaa hame-shudah*


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## HZKhan

I would translate the couplet as following: 
Due to its continuously having been separated from the union with flower, at the time of daybreak, the nightingale entered the garden moaning.

You see, English is not my native language, so you'll excuse me if you see any mistakes.


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## colognial

Hello, Qureshpor Saahib. I am not sure the quoted couplet is by Haafez. If it is, then it may be an early Haafez, belonging to the time when Haafez was still practicing his skills in order to learn how to write his later verse! It doesn't sound Haafezaane to me. There's something missing, some fluency, so that you feel the connections are not complete, the circle of associations is not closed off, if you know what I mean. Of course I am not adept at classical poetry, so may be completely wrong.

Generally, though, I could try to shed light on the 'jodaa hami shode'. This looks like a verb but in fact it is only an adjective. The nightingale is in a separated state. The hami serves to make it, 'it' being the adjective, present continuous. The nightingale is at the time of sobhdam in a state of being separated from the rose continuously.



panjabigator said:


> What does "khazaan" mean? Treasure?
> 
> Couldn't "shudah" belong at the end of the sentence, grammatically? ھمہ از وصلِ گل اندرِ خزان جدہ شدہ۔
> 
> Just my musings. Not at all a Persian expert.



Jodaa hami shode is the standard order of the words. However, hami shode .... jodaa is OK, too. Poetic licence may be said to be responsible. Also, syntax is not a great concern of Persian speakers. Indeed we tend to change the order of words in our sentences to add meaning to what we have to say. I believe the same is practiced in English, only in Persian there are more ways of doing it. Sentences may be delivered in various ways just by the words getting juggled about or even omitted. As for 'khazaan', there's a famous poem by the classical poet Manouchehri. The first line goes "Kheezeed o khaz aareed ke hengaam e khazaan ast, Baade khonak az jaaneb e Khaarazm ravaan ast". Translation: Get up (mobilize) and bring out the mink (the warm clothing), since it is the time of Khazaan (Autumn) / the cool breeze is blowing from the direction of Khaarazm.



Qureshpor said:


> [...]
> The past participle of a Persian verb, in addition to the normal past meaning has a secondary meaning too. This is best explained by examples.
> 
> giriftah  = caught/held
> kardah= done (as in kardah ast: S/he has done)
> 
> The secondary meaning is kardah = Having done
> giriftah = Having held
> [...]



I totally agree with your explanation, Qureshpor Saahib. What we have in the second line, or the second _misra_, is not a full sentence, but a phrase.


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## Qureshpor

colognial said:


> [...]I totally agree with your explanation, Qureshpor Saahib. What we have in the second line, or the second _misra_, is not a full sentence, but a phrase.


Thank you. Are you suggesting that ھمی شدہ is in reality ھمی شدہ است or ھمی شدہ بود ?


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## colognial

Qureshpor said:


> Thank you. Are you suggesting that ھمی شدہ is in reality ھمی شدہ است or ھمی شدہ بود ?


 No. On the contrary, I'm maintaining that the sentence already has a verb, which is 'aamad'. There is only the one verb in the couplet, and so "the nightingale, having been separated from the rose in autumn, entered the garden", constitutes one sentence.


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## Qureshpor

colognial said:


> No. On the contrary, I'm maintaining that the sentence already has a verb, which is 'aamad'. There is only the one verb in the couplet, and so "the nightingale, having been separated from the rose in autumn, entered the garden", constitutes one sentence.


Thank you aaqaa-ye-colognial for the clarification.


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