# Her room's window / The window of her room



## Roymalika

Hi

It's raining heavily outside. Lisa is in her room. *Her room's window/the window of her room* is open. She is reading a book, as well as enjoying the pleasant weather.

Source of context: self-made

Which one is correct and idiomatic please?

I've read that "Her room's window" is incorrect, while "The window of her room" is correct. (Source: Practical Usage of English, Michael Swan)


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## Hermione Golightly

Swan's advice is right - we'd say 'the window of her room'.


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## DonnyB

You could actually do that as "The window *in *her room is open", but I would mark "Her room's window..." as wrong.


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## Hermione Golightly

I can't say I would say 'the window _in _her room' but I had been thinking that there's no need to mention the room at all. It's very difficult to make up sentences.


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## Andygc

I agree. Mentioning her room adds nothing useful. 

I disagree that _her room's window_ is wrong, and I would not be surprised to hear it. The same goes for "the table's leg was badly scratched", "the car's door is dented" and "the water's surface was oily", all of which receive Swan's seal of disapproval, but are, to me, unremarkable.

It's raining heavily outside. Lisa is in her room. Her window is open. She is reading a book, as well as enjoying the pleasant weather.

Odd that Lisa finds heavy rain to be "pleasant weather".


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## Ömür Tokman

Roymalika said:


> Hi
> 
> It's raining heavily outside. Lisa is in her room. *Her room's window/the window of her room* is open. She is reading a book, as well as enjoying the pleasant weather.
> 
> Source of context: self-made
> 
> Which one is correct and idiomatic please?
> 
> I've read that "Her room's window" is incorrect, while "The window of her room" is correct. (Source: Practical Usage of English, Michael Swan)


Hello, I am Omur, this is my first post on this forum. If I understood the question correctly.
As far as I know "s" is used for living beings. "of" is used for inanimate objects.
for example;
man's hand.
handle of the door.
dog's leg.
the leg of the table.
Lisa's room.
window of the room.
the window of lisa's room.
her room's window.


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## The Newt

There is a long discussion on this earlier thread:

Possessive - using 's with inanimate nouns

The short answer is that there is no generally accepted prohibition against using the _'s_ genitive for inanimate objects in all cases.


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## Egmont

The Newt said:


> There is a long discussion on this earlier thread:
> 
> Possessive - using 's with inanimate nouns
> 
> The short answer is that there is no generally accepted prohibition against using the _'s_ genitive for inanimate objects in all cases.


Exactly - but, as a matter of style, the "a of b" form usually works better with inanimate objects. That is why we recommend "the window of her room" as the better style choice.


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## Roymalika

Andygc said:


> "the table's leg was badly scratched", "the car's door is dented" and "the water's surface was oily", all of which receive Swan's seal of disapproval, but are, to me, unremarkable.


Sorry, You mean to say that they're all fuly acceptable to you?


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## lingobingo

As always, what makes the difference is context.

She’s in her room and the window is open. 
The window of her room is open. 
Her room’s window is open. 
_Her_ room’s window is open, but his room’s is closed.


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## Ömür Tokman

Egmont said:


> Exactly - but, as a matter of style, the "a of b" form usually works better with inanimate objects. That is why we recommend "the window of her room" as the better style choice.


So, as a person who is learning English, will an Englishman understand me when I say mixed words?
if he will understand, my stress load will be reduced abroad. I've heard that the English are not as prescriptive about language as the French. 
ex:
The man's head hurts.
Head of man hurts.


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## elroy

I don’t think I would ever say “the window of her room.”  That feels very unidiomatic to me.

I would say “her bedroom window.”  That’s very idiomatic in US English.


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## Edinburgher

If I've just said that Lisa is in her room, I would not immediately mention the room again.
I'd say "Her window is open", or (probably better) "The window is open."


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## elroy

My point is that *if* I were to mention the room... (read my last post ).


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## Egmont

Ömür Tokman said:


> So, as a person who is learning English, will an Englishman understand me when I say mixed words?
> if he will understand, my stress load will be reduced abroad. I've heard that the English are not as prescriptive about language as the French.
> ex:
> The man's head hurts.
> Head of man hurts.


Since "man" is animate, the genitive form - "the man's head" - is more natural.

If you want to use the other form, which would be more natural for inanimate objects but sounds strange for a person, you'd need to add articles to the singular uncountable [originally had "uncountable" here, should be "countable"; thanks to *lingobingo* for catching my error] nouns "head" and "man." (There's a annual regatta (set of rowing races) in the Boston area called "Head of the Charles," because it is held on the Charles River, though it doesn't actually go near its head. Calling it the "Charles's Head Regatta" would sound strange for a river, though "Charles's head" for a person named Charles is fine.)


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## london calling

elroy said:


> I would say “her bedroom window.”  That’s very idiomatic in US English.


It is in BE too.


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## elroy

lingobingo said:


> She’s in her room and the window is open.
> The window of her room is open.
> Her room’s window is open.
> _Her_ room’s window is open, but his room’s is closed.


I can’t imagine saying the second or the fourth.

Her bedroom window is open.
Her bedroom window is open, but his is closed.


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## lingobingo

Dare I suggest that you’re missing the point, elroy? You’ve already said in #12 that you wouldn’t say “the window of her room” (I probably wouldn’t either – I’d say the window *in* her room), but it _is_ what’s under discussion here, since it’s precisely what Swan says we should say (see OP attachment).

And my point with the last one was that even the phrase that Swan says we shouldn’t say could, arguably, be used in a context that demanded emphasis on the possessive determiner, such as a  comparison between _her_ room and _his_.


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## elroy

lingobingo said:


> Dare I suggest that you’re missing the point, elroy?


You may.   However, I don’t think I’m missing the point.

You gave those two sentences a , and I don’t agree with those assessments.  In the last sentence, the same contrastive stress can be achieved with “bedroom window.”


lingobingo said:


> it _is_ what’s under discussion here, since it’s precisely what Swan says we should say (see OP attachment)


I understand that, and I’m saying I wouldn’t say it and I wouldn’t give it a .  In other words, my usage doesn’t agree with Swan’s.


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## DonnyB

lingobingo said:


> As always, what makes the difference is context.
> 
> She’s in her room and the window is open.
> The window of her room is open.
> Her room’s window is open.
> _Her_ room’s window is open, but his room’s is closed.


I certainly wouldn't say (4), which I think is hideously unidiomatic, and I can't say I'm wild about (2).

But then - and this is speaking entirely for myself - I don't really care what Swan says we should or shouldn't say.


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## Roymalika

elroy said:


> Her bedroom window is open.
> Her bedroom window is open, but his is closed


Can you say:

Her bedroom's window is open.

Her bedroom's window is open, but his is closed.

Would these be acceptable in AE?


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## elroy

No, drop the ’s.


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## Edinburgher

elroy said:


> In the last sentence, the same contrastive stress can be achieved with “bedroom window.”


That's all very well if the room in question actually is a bedroom.  We are happy to use 'bedroom/bathroom/kitchen/conservatory' or 'living/dining room' attributively, but unadorned 'room' doesn't work: _Her room window is open. _

So what do we do when the room is not a bedroom or any of the above specific types of room? Suppose the room is her study or studio. Would we say "her study window"/"her studio window"? They sound just about passable, if a bit borderline.  If we don't know what kind of room it is, then we could, I suppose, simply say _Her window is open. _

I'm also happy with LB's 'in' rather than 'of' (#18).


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## elroy

Edinburgher said:


> That's all very well if the room in question actually is a bedroom.





Roymalika said:


> Lisa is in her room.


For me, "her room" can only mean "her bedroom."  I would never say "her room" to refer to any other type of room; would you? 


Edinburgher said:


> Suppose the room is her study or studio. Would we say "her study window"/"her studio window"?


I would say "the window in her study/studio." 


Edinburgher said:


> If we don't know what kind of room it is


For me, that's not possible, because as I said "her room" automatically means "her bedroom" to me, and any other type of room would be specified.


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## Edinburgher

elroy said:


> I would never say "her room" to refer to any other type of room; would you?


Suppose she's a student living in an all-purpose room in which she lives, watches TV, has guests, studies, eats, and also sleeps.  It might even be a boarding-school type of room shared among several boarders.  Since sleeping is not the sole or even main purpose of the room, I would not call it a bedroom.  I'd call it her room.  Wouldn't you?


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## elroy

Yes, I would call it her bedroom.  Lots of people do those other things in their bedrooms, and your bedroom is still your bedroom even if others sleep there too.  I think you might be over-thinking this.


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## Edinburgher

You seem to have an obsession with beds.   Let's forget beds.

Suppose she's a college lecturer, and this is the room at work in which she spends most of her time whenever she's not actually teaching (in a classroom).  It's where she does her research, prepares her lectures, etc.  I would not hesitate to call it "her room", and indeed I'd be more likely to do that than to call it "her office".

Now, to go back to the window, I could of course say "her office window", but I might not want to.  I wouldn't say "her room window", but I could say "her window".


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## elroy

Edinburgher said:


> Suppose she's a college lecturer, and this is the room at work in which she spends most of her time whenever she's not actually teaching (in a classroom). It's where she does her research, prepares her lectures, etc. I would not hesitate to call it "her room", and indeed I'd be more likely to do that than to call it "her office".


I would not call it "her room."  I don't see why "her office" wouldn't fit.


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## Keith Bradford

If we could get back to the actual question: the apostrophe-s.

This is a matter of probabilities.  In 95% of cases, native English speakers follow Swan's guidance, cited in #1.  A foreign learner will very rarely be wrong if he does so. But of course, it's not a "rule" - neither Swan nor anyone else has the power to make such rules.


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## Roymalika

Keith Bradford said:


> If we could get back to the actual question: the apostrophe-s.
> 
> This is a matter of probabilities.  In 95% of cases, native English speakers follow Swan's guidance, cited in #1.  A foreign learner will very rarely be wrong if he does so. But of course, it's not a "rule" - neither Swan nor anyone else has the power to make such rules.


May I ask what your personal preference would be, please? Would you use Swan's advice or would you use either structure?


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## Andygc

Keith Bradford said:


> In 95% of cases, native English speakers follow Swan's guidance, cited in #1


I'd describe that as a gross exaggeration.


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## Keith Bradford

Andygc said:


> I'd describe that as a gross exaggeration.


It isn't.

As it happens, I tested this about six months ago.  I took several thousand words of university-level essays from a US website, and analysed them for the *of*-structures and the *apostrophe-s* structures.  (It's not difficult using Microsoft Word and control-F.)  I can't remember exactly the figure complying with the Swan recommendations, but it was around 96%.


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## Keith Bradford

Roymalika said:


> May I ask what your personal preference would be, please? Would you use Swan's advice or would you use either structure?


Without the slightest shadow of doubt, I would use "The window of her room".  The other is so uncommon as to be called wrong (300:1 against).

Google Books Ngram Viewer


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## Andygc

I don't accept that a selection of university-level essays from a US website is a valid test of the general use of possessives with inanimate objects. I will continue to describe your 95% as a gross exaggeration.


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## elroy

I agree with Swan's _Don't say_, but not with his _Say_.
"the window of her room" sounds to me like a calque on a Romance language.


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## Keith Bradford

@Andygc. I challenge you for proof: I've told you mine.  Here are the criteria:

_Take several thousand words of continuous prose, randomly chosen from a number of different writers on a number of topics (so as to include both human and inanimate cases).  Analyse them into the four criteria cited in Swan:_​
_Animate using apostrophe-s_
_Inanimate using "of"_
_Organisations may use either_
_Measures of time may use an apostrophe_
_I prophesy that cases falling outside those four categories will be no more than 6%._​
I promise not to gloat if I'm right.



elroy said:


> ...
> "the window of her room" sounds to me like a calque on a Romance language.


So?  It's what most English writers write.  (Until 1940 it was the only version they wrote.)  Did you look at the data cited in #33?


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## elroy

Keith Bradford said:


> It's what most English writers write. Did you look at the data cited in #33?


Your link only tells me that "her room's window" returns no results.  I don't see anything about "the window of her room."  And even if there are some results for it, that doesn't tell us it's what "most English writers write"; we'd need to compare it with "the window in her room" and "her bedroom window" (at least). 

(When I say it sounds like a calque on a Romance language, I mean it sounds unidiomatic and that I don't think most native English speakers would use it.)


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## elroy

Keith Bradford said:


> _Animate using apostrophe-s_
> _Inanimate using "of"_
> _Organisations may use either_
> _Measures of time may use an apostrophe_


This is already problematic, because it assumes "of" and 's are the only two options.  It doesn't account for other options, like "in" ("the window in her room") and compound nouns ("her bedroom window").

I would never say _either _"the semester's break" (hello Turkish) or "the break of the semester" (hello Spanish), but _only_ "the semester break."

(I'm not taking any sides here; I'm simply pointing out a methodological weakness.)


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## Keith Bradford

Elroy, one issue at a time, please.  I'm addressing #1.  It may take an hour or two...


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## e2efour

In the COCA corpus of American English there is one example of _her room's window.
"Oddly enough, *her* *room's* *window* was the only one in the whole hotel that had been shattered by the blast."_

There are 7 examples of _the window in her room _and 14 examples_ of the window of her room._

This does not make _her room's window _incorrect, but I find it rather unnatural.

Why some people insist on _bedroom_ is a mystery to me.


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## Andygc

Keith Bradford said:


> @Andygc. I challenge you for proof:


I have no intention whatsoever of wasting my time on a fruitless competition. I know how I use the possessive s with inanimate nouns. I also know that I find it unlikely that I would say "the window of her room" unless there was some particular context that drove me that way. I talk of my boat's anchor and my boat's masts, my car's engine and my car's wheels, my cupboard's shelves, my drill's chuck, my bandsaw's blade, the bed's springs (my bed doesn't have any springs). I must get around to painting the shed's door, so perhaps that would be a better use of my time than wondering about painting the door of the shed.


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## elroy

e2efour said:


> Why some people insist on _bedroom_ is a mystery to me.


No one is "insisting" on it.  That's simply what I would use in this case. Why? I would generally use a compound noun to refer to windows in various rooms ("kitchen window," "living room window," "attic window," etc.). For some reason, we don't say "her room window," and for me, "her room" can only mean "her *bed*room," so for me, "her *bed*room window" is the go-to choice.  "the window in her room" is also okay.


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## elroy

Andygc said:


> I also know that I find it unlikely that I would say "the window of her room" unless there was some particular context that drove me that way.


Would you say "her room's window" or one of the other alternatives?


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## Keith Bradford

Andygc said:


> I have no intention whatsoever of wasting my time on a fruitless competition. I know how I use the possessive s ...


If you've no intention of checking your facts, perhaps you might stop saying things like "I'd describe that as a gross exaggeration" when other people do try to talk from data rather than from their personal opinion?

I've just redone my original research from new data (details below*) and come up with this:

Persons with apostrophe-s................11
Persons with "of"................................6
Organisations &c with apostrophe-s....9
Organisations &c with "of" .................5
Inanimates with 's .............................0
Inanimates with "of" ........................54
Exceptions (time) ..............................1
The only apostrophe-s after an inanimate was two instances of "the word's", which comes within Swan's category of places.  My new, revised, suggestion is:  _In *94%* of cases, native English speakers follow Swan's guidance, cited in #1.  A foreign learner will very rarely be wrong if he does so._

* SOURCES A Guardian lead article, an essay on education, an extract from a prize-winning novel, an article on rock music.  
Total number of words: 4015.  Total number of possessives: 103.  
Cases falling outside Swan's guidelines: 6.  Percentage within the guidelines: 94.2%.  Full data if you send me a PM.


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## Keith Bradford

elroy said:


> Your link only tells me that "her room's window" returns no results.  I don't see anything about "the window of her room."  ...


There's sometimes a glitch in Ngrams.  You may need to go to the command line and hit ENTER to get the full readout.


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## Edinburgher

Keith Bradford said:


> There's sometimes a glitch in Ngrams. You may need to go to the command line and hit ENTER to get the full readout.


Yes, this tends to happen when the search line has special characters in it, like apostrophes.


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## Andygc

elroy said:


> Would you say "her room's window" or one of the other alternatives?


Sorry to be slow, but I had other things to do. Again, it depends on context - for example:


lingobingo said:


> _Her_ room’s window is open, but his room’s is closed.


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## Andygc

Keith Bradford said:


> I've just redone my original research from new data (details below*) and come up with this:


I used to be a reviewer for a scientific journal.

Editor
Thank you for asking me to review this study report. The author seems to be ignorant of some elementary errors in a study of this type. As usual, I defer to your statistical adviser, but the sample size seems grossly inadequate to draw any meaningful conclusion from the data. The study is also very severely impacted by selection bias - just four examples of text coming from a narrow range that ignores, for example, spoken English, the popular press and magazines. I fear that this study is so defective that it cannot be salvaged.
Andygc



Keith Bradford said:


> A foreign learner will very rarely be wrong if he does so.


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## Keith Bradford

Andy, I would gladly take your criticism if you were prepared to try and do better yourself.  I have done this quick-and-dirty survey twice, using 200 samples of the possessive by eight writers from two countries.  The first result gave 96% credence to Swan, the second 94%.  All you can say is, essentially, that I must be wrong because I don't do it your way.

By the way, were your two Ngram examples randomly chosen?  They seem curiously similar to each other.  Here's another three inanimate nouns (*lintel*, *sanction *and *poison*) which I did choose at random by sticking a knife in a dictionary.  I then analysed them using your method:
Google Books Ngram Viewer
Google Books Ngram Viewer
Google Books Ngram Viewer
They show a bias against the apostrophe-s of 15:1, 43:1 and 6:1 respectively.

I rest my case.


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## Andygc

Keith

You are using a tiny sample of English to try to prove your point. I'm saying your conclusions are invalid because your methodology is invalid. The concepts of adequate sample size and selection bias are not my invention. If you wish to prove your point you need to start with a representative sample of English which does not show selection bias. If you want to spend your time on this you could explore the Corpus of Contemporary American English, which would give you a sample size of one billion words. The British National Corpus is smaller at 100 million words, and has the merit of including a considerable amount of spoken English. A corpus of 4,000 words from 4 documents is trivial.

When using ngrams you might like to keep in mind this caution from Wikipedia:



> The data set has been criticized for its reliance upon inaccurate OCR, an overabundance of scientific literature, and for including large numbers of incorrectly dated and categorized texts. Because of these errors, and because it is uncontrolled for bias (such as the increasing amount of scientific literature, which causes other terms to appear to decline in popularity), it is risky to use this corpus to study language or test theories. Since the data set does not include metadata, it may not reflect general linguistic or cultural change and can only hint at such an effect.



I have better things to do with my time.


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## DonnyB

I think this might be an opportune moment to draw this thread to a close.  It seems highly unlikely to me that we're going to reach a conclusion on which we're all agreed as to the viability of using the apostrophe-s  in most of the examples people have come up with.

Thanks to everyone for their contributions, which I hope Roy feels have gone some way towards answering his question. DonnyB - moderator


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