# Using קָרָא with indefinite and definite objects



## Eddie

Hello, everyone. Please forgive me for asking such elementary questions; but there are loose ends that were never tied up for me. 
I know the first sentence is correct. 
I'm not sure about #2. 
Is #3 a possibility?

הוּא קוֹרֵא בְּעִתּוֹן.
 הוּא קוֹרֵא אֶת הָעִתּוֹן.
הוּא קוֹרֵא בָּעִתּוֹן 


Thanks for any clarification you can give me.

Ed​


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## Marnavot

All three are possibilities, though the first one is different than the other two.
The first sentence means: He is reading *a *newspaper.
The other two have the same meaning, and both are equally correct.
Their meaning is: He is reading *the *newspaper.

There is only a small difference between the last two:
הוא קורא את העיתון=He is reading the newspaper
הוא קורא בָעיתון= He is reading the newspaper
_but_
הוא קורא בָעיתון על האולימפיאדה בבייג'ין= He is reading in the newspaper about the Olympic Games in Beijing. 
הוא קורא את העיתון על האולימפיאדה בבייג'ין=


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## Eddie

Thank you, Marnavot. It's much clearer to me now. The last two sentences are interchangeable as long as they're not qualified by what it is a person is reading.


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## Tararam

Is the first sentence correct? it doesn't seem right to me...
Besides, all sentences that uses the preposition "be" (ב) must be followed by something because it actually means "He is reading in/in the newspaper", you can't end a sentence like that. 
People will undoubtedly understand you if you say the third sentence alone, with no continuation because it has become a common term. The second sentence simply means "He's reading the newspaper" and that's it. The first sentence seems completely false to me and I've never heard it without a continuation to it.


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## Aoyama

> all sentences that uses the preposition "be" (ב) must be followed by something because it actually means "He is reading in/in the newspaper", you can't end a sentence like that.


I agree with that. 
הוא קורא בָעיתון cannot be a conclusive sentence and must be followed by a subordinate :
he is reading (in) the newspaper about something.
הוא קורא את העיתון can work as a conclusive sentence : he is (just)reading the newspaper
For the difference between *bé*iton and *ba*iton I would say (but could be wrong) that it is just a matter of "phonetic rules".
Ba iton is standard Hebrew whereas Bé iton is the correct way, according to vocalic change in Hebrew .


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## BezierCurve

> For the difference between *bé*iton and *ba*iton


 
I'd say it's rather the question of the definite article (ha) before the noun and its shortening to ba (be + ha = ba).

Correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Tararam

Ammm.... no, I seriously think that "*bé*iton" is completely incorrect.
If there's another native speaker that can verify that that'd be great.

The only example that works is if you use the name of the newspaper you are reading. For instance:
אני קורא בעיתון הארץ/ידיעות אחרונות/מעריב...
(those are israeli newspapers)
and even in that case you have to continue the sentence and say what you're reading.


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## Marnavot

I don't think be'iton is incorrect (I'm a native speaker), but it is just used less frequently.


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## berndf

Are
הוּא קוֹרֵא אֶת הָעִתּוֹן
הוּא קוֹרֵא בָּעִתּוֹן 
really interchangable? Naively, I would have understood the first to mean "He reads (all) the newspaper" and the second "He reads (something) in the newspaper". Am I wrong?


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## Tararam

No you're not wrong at all...
but הוּא קוֹרֵא בָּעִתּוֹן  has become a very popular term that is used quite often.
it basically means "He is reading the newspaper", so although it's not gramtically interchangable with הוּא קוֹרֵא אֶת הָעִתּוֹן, it means the exact same thing in spoken, everyday language.
Hebrew excels in that sort of things...


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## berndf

That is interesting. I think it shows that Modern Hebrew is now leaving behind its origin as a constructed language, constructed mainly by speakers of European languages. The expressions
הוּא קוֹרֵא אֶת הָעִתּוֹן
הוּא קוֹרֵא בָּעִתּוֹן 
have probably been taken from German (either directly via German or indirectly via Yiddish speaking Jews) which has exactly these two forms with the semantic distinction I described.
 
I find it a natural and healthy development for the language to develop (have developed) its proper logic going beyond both ancient Hebrew and the European roots of the people how constructed Modern Hebrew although in this particular case one might regards the loss of precision as regrettable.


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## Tararam

Does German has a word like "את"?
I thought את is "Hebrew Exclusive" (or at least semetic exc) since all languages just use "the" whereas hebrew uses "את + the"
הוא קורא *את ה*עיתון
He is reading *the* newspaper.

I don't see the similarity with German *specifically,* since probably all languages use this structure (both for בעיתון and העיתון).
The fact that also in German both sentences with העיתון and בעיתון are interchangable could be a coincidence. 
But no doubt Hebrew was influenced by German and Yiddish so perheps I'm wrong and this case is in fact of German-like origin.


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## berndf

If course the "את" does not exist in German as a _word_. But it has its correspondence in the accusative/dative distinction. I remember we had the same question in the German forum (definite article+accusative vs. _in_+definite article+dative) which showed that the difference was not obvious to English speakers. Having a similar question from an English speaker in this forum made me think the distinction might be originally German.


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## Aoyama

The function of " את" is an interesting debate, but maybe off-topic. את as a particle introducing a complement is found in the Bible, even in the Ten Commandments. 
I had thought (naively) that it could have come from ... Russian, the first Modern Hebrew scholars (Ben Yehuda etc) being from Russia and Poland (but that was WRONG).
For Bé iton/ba iton, I'd say it's a bit like Bé Yirushalaim/ Birushalaim ...
Karati ba iton *but* bé itonéinu haya katuv (it was written in our paper)


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## Menachem Avinoam

I may not be a native speaker but I know a thing or two about biblical grammar.
Let me point out that the definite article hints to the listener that the thing should be familiar to him or her from a previous introduction to it.
Thus if your father is reading from the *usual* newspaper you say:
הוּא קוֹרֵא בָּעִתּוֹן
Yet if he is reading from an unusual newspaper or if it is unusual for him to read the paper you say:
הוּא קוֹרֵא בְּעִתּוֹן

Regarding the whole ב thing mentioned earlier and whether the sentence should continue, I believe it is all based on whether the tone places emphasis on הוא קורא followed by a slight pause before pronouncing בעתון. If the whole sentence is said in the same boring tone, you guys are right and it would need to continue...  although I think it is 100% grammatically correct to end the sentence if you change your tone on קורא so the listener isn't expecting the sentence to continue. Of coarse I'm not a native speaker and could be wrong...

Finally:
  הוּא קוֹרֵא אֶת הָעִתּוֹן
Regarding the debate between ב and ה, I second what _berndf_ said: "He reads (all) the newspaper" vs. "He reads (something) in the newspaper". Thus picking one over the other also implies an observation of how much of the paper you observe the person to read.

Perhaps another candidate would be:
הוא קורא עתון
"He is reading a newspaper"

Which is more proper really depends on the emphasis you are aiming for.  Are you trying to say that he reads the newspaper _silently_? Or are you merely trying to say that he just reads from it? And because we want to say nothing more than "He is reading the paper," I think the best way to say it is הוּא קוֹרֵא בָּעִתּוֹן seeing people that read the newspaper are accustomed to reading it thus using the definite article. Just make sure to place emphasis on the sentence correctly with your tone so it is obvious the sentence is about to end.


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## Aoyama

> if your father is reading from the *usual* newspaper you say:
> הוּא קוֹרֵא בָּעִתּוֹן
> Yet if he is reading from an unusual newspaper or if it is unusual for him to read the paper you say:
> הוּא קוֹרֵא בְּעִתּוֹן


Very true.
B*a* iton being bé + ha (bé haiton) = in THE newspaper
Bé iton = in A newspaper ...


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## Tararam

Bé iton DOES NOT EXIST without a continuation to it (when the only continuation possible in my opinion is the name of the newspaper).
If it's an undifined newspaper (meaning it doesn't take "the") than you just say:
הוא קורא עיתון
You cannot use "הוּא קוֹרֵא בְּעִתּוֹן" as a stand-alone sentence for someone who is reading an undifined newspaper, even under the pretext Menachem Avinoam pointed out.
It's not just gramatically incorrect, it's not possible even in slang.


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## Menachem Avinoam

Tararam said:


> If it's an undifined newspaper (meaning it doesn't take "the") than you just say:
> הוא קורא עיתון


Ah so the candidate I recommended at the end of my post was actually a winner, hehe.


Tararam said:


> You cannot use "הוּא קוֹרֵא בְּעִתּוֹן" as a stand-alone sentence for someone who is reading an undifined newspaper, even under the pretext Menachem Avinoam pointed out.
> It's not just gramatically incorrect, it's not possible even in slang.


Alright, makes sense. Yet הוּא קוֹרֵא בָּעִתּוֹן with a קָמָץ still stands because it is definite, eh?


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## Tararam

Menachem Avinoam said:


> Ah so the candidate I recommended at the end of my post was actually a winner, hehe.
> 
> Alright, makes sense. Yet הוּא קוֹרֵא בָּעִתּוֹן with a קָמָץ still stands because it is definite, eh?


 
הוּא קוֹרֵא בָּעִתּוֹן is not gramatically correct as a stand-alone sentence (like "he is reading in the newspaper" isn't a stand-alone sentence in english) however it has become a very popular term for replacing: 
הוא קורא עיתון
They are interchangeable, and it's fine using it.

But "Be iton" = NO!


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