# 飲む飲まないに関わりなく



## graysesame

I saw the sentence
お酒を飲む飲まないに関わりなく参加者には一人3000円払っていただきます
and started to think the interchangeability between "動詞＋か＋動詞＋か＋打消しの言葉" and "動詞＋動詞＋打消しの言葉" because the sentence I saw could be written with "飲むか飲まないかに関わりなく."

飲む飲まないに関わりなく（〇）
飲むか飲まないかに関わりなく（〇）

投票をするしない、それは各自の自由だ（〇）
投票をするかしないか、それは各自の自由だ（〇）

学園祭に行くか行かないか迷っています（〇）
学園祭に行く行かない迷っています I think it sounds faulty

Could you share more examples where the two patterns are not interchangeable and, if possible, the theory you come up with?


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## SoLaTiDoberman

学園祭に行くか行かないか迷っています
学園祭に行く行かない迷っています 
学園祭に行く行かない*で*迷っています
学園祭に行く行かない*、それを（orそれで）*迷っています　＝　投票をするしない、それは各自の自由だ 
投票をするしない各自の自由だ


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## kanadaaa

I think this is a complement/adjunct distinction.

学園祭に行くか行かないか迷っています
'I wonder whether I should go to the school festival.' (Complement of the verb) ⇒ In this case the first か can't be ommitted

お酒を飲む飲まないに関わりなく
'Regardless of whether you drink or not' (Adjunct)


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## graysesame

kanadaaa said:


> 学園祭に行くか行かないか迷っています
> 'I wonder whether I should go to the school festival.' (Complement of the verb)


Do you mean "complement of 迷う"?

I found a sentence:
特に人間関係がどの程度のものなのかは、*助言するしないを決める*のにとても大切なように思えました。
Does 学園祭に行く行かないを迷っています, resembling the sentence structure, sound natural?


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## kanadaaa

graysesame said:


> Do you mean "complement of 迷う"?


Yes.


graysesame said:


> I found a sentence:
> 特に人間関係がどの程度のものなのかは、*助言するしないを決める*のにとても大切なように思えました。


That's a different construction because the complement of 決める is a を-marked noun phrase.


graysesame said:


> Does 学園祭に行く行かないを迷っています, resembling the sentence structure, sound natural?


No.


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## graysesame

Is not the complement of 迷う also an を-marked noun phrase? (surface form: 行くか行かないか迷う underlying form: 行くか行かないかを迷う)


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## kanadaaa

graysesame said:


> 行くか行かないかを迷う


This is just impossible.
迷う takes a clausal complement, while 決める can take either a nominal or clausal complement.


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## graysesame

Just for clarification. I am not familiar with syntactic terms.


kanadaaa said:


> 迷う takes a clausal complement


Is  "道に"迷う or "道を"迷うa nominal complement? If not, the proper clarification for them is?


Does ...*助言するしないを決める*のに... obey 
complement/adjunct rule?

(The purpose of this question is to find when the two patterns are interchangeable.)


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## kanadaaa

In neutral terms, the verbs 迷う and 決める differ in whether they can have a noun phrase in their object positions.
The first can only have a clause in its object position, while the second can have either a noun phrase or a clause.

 するかしないか迷う
 するかしないかを迷う

 するかしないか決める
 するかしないかを決める

Thus, the following is impossible because 迷う doesn't take a noun phrase in its object position:



graysesame said:


> "道を"迷う


On the other hand, 道に in



graysesame said:


> "道に"迷う


is not something that is required by the verb 迷う (and thus is not a complement but an adjunct) because it's an adverbial, without which the sentence just makes sense. (Notice that 迷った is impeccable although it has no other words in the sentence.)

The pattern you’re concerned with here is the を-less one: that is, verbs that take a clause in their object positions.


graysesame said:


> 学園祭に行くか行かないか迷っています（〇）
> 学園祭に行く行かない迷っています I think it sounds faulty


The first and the second in the quoted are good and bad, respectively.
Thus the か-less pattern is impossible when the か...ないか clause is required to be there by the main verb (=when it's the complement of the verb).
On the other hand, when the か...ないか clause is *not* required by the main verb (=when it's an adjunct), both the "か-ful" and か-less patterns are allowed:

 投票 (を) するしない、それは各自の自由だ (Whether one votes or not, it's up to the person)
 投票をするかしないか、それは各自の自由だ
 それは各自の自由だ

Speaking of the を-marked pattern, both the "か-ful" and か-less patterns are allowed, as long as the main verb can have a noun phrase in its object position:

 助言するしないを決める
 助言するかしないかを決める

 助言するしないを迷う
 助言するかしないかを迷う


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## graysesame

kanadaaa said:


> In neutral terms, the verbs 迷う and 決める differ in whether they can have a noun phrase in their object positions.
> The first can only have a clause in its object position, while the second can have either a noun phrase or a clause.
> 
> するかしないか迷う
> するかしないかを迷う
> 
> するかしないか決める
> するかしないかを決める




 するかしないか決める (underlined part is a か-marked clausal complement)
 するかしないかを決める (underlined part is a を-marked nominal complement)
Do I understand it correctly?


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## kanadaaa

graysesame said:


> するかしないか決める (underlined part is a か-marked clausal complement)
> するかしないかを決める (underlined part is a を-marked nominal complement)
> Do I understand it correctly?


Yes, you got it.


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## graysesame

(For word usage)
I found 6365 hits and 1342 hits for を迷う and に迷う, respectively, in TWC (Tsukuba Web Corpus). I know it is advisable to use に with 迷う but  SoLaTiDoberman _san _wrote down それを迷っています and the 1342 hits so it seems that を迷う is sometimes used. 道に迷う is much more frequently used than 道を迷う, though.

(For complement/adjunct distinction)


kanadaaa said:


> お酒を飲む飲まないに関わりなく
> 'Regardless of whether you drink or not' (Adjunct)


I suppose you mean お酒を飲む飲まないに is an adjunct in お酒を飲む飲まないに関わりなく.
If I understand it correctly, a complement and an adjunct can be distinguished from whether it is adjacent to the head and is inside the verb phrase. An easy method is to check whether the part examined is required by the main verb.
Observing kanadaaa _san_'s posts, I found that に-marked phrases are categorized into adjuncts and を-marked phrases are categorized into complements, However, I doubt if that is always the case. しこりを触れる and しこりに触れる have almost the same meaning and exactly the same structure. And (I feel that) the word 関わる needs "somethingに" to complete the meaning.

(For the main question of the thread)
投票をするしない、それは各自の自由だ (adjunct) is natural.
参加するかしないかを決める (を-marked nominal complement) is natural.
参加するしないを決める (を-marked nominal complement) is natural.
助言するしない決める (lack of を to form を-marked nominal complement) is unnatural.
参加するしない迷う (lack of か to form か-marked clausal complement) is unnatural.
Is the summarization correct?

(A side note)
There are 7 hits for "*か*＋*を*＋迷う（語彙素）", 5 hits for "*か*＋*に*＋迷う（語彙素）", 741 hits for "*か*＋迷う（語彙素）" in BCCWJ.
Examples
目的地が決まらないのに、飛行機で行くか、電車で行く か (を)(迷っ)ているようなもの。
こまった警察はどうすべき か (に)(まよっ)た。
着替えた方がいいかどう か (迷っ)たが, ...

(Acknowledgement)
I know it takes time and effort to provide answers and examples. We questioners cannot thank all the kind-hearted answerers enough!


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## kanadaaa

graysesame said:


> Is the summarization correct?


It's exactly to the point.

I think 迷う has lexical ambiguity between intransitive and transitive.
迷う in 道に迷う is obviously intransitive, while the one in 応募を迷う is transitive.
When the verb is preceded by a clause, it's always intransitive because transitive verbs don't take a clausal complement.


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## graysesame

There is one more thing that I would like to ask. Is the version without か less formal? Or it depends on the context. Sometimes it is considered less formal, sometimes considered a concise expression?

P.S. か-less phrase can also be the subject of a sentence.
膵臓の裏側の、レントゲンに写らない場所に、五、六センチくらいの大きさのものがあって、これがガンであるかどうかによって、手術をするしないが決まるわけです。
Q: ｖｏｄａｆｏｎｅからａｕへキャリアの変更をしようと思っているんですが、そういった場合登録されているアドレスは移し変えてもらえるのですか？A: お店によって出来る出来ないがあります。購入される際お店に聞いた方が良いですね。


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## kanadaaa

graysesame said:


> Is the version without か less formal?


I don't think there's any difference in formality.


graysesame said:


> P.S. か-less phrase can also be the subject of a sentence.


This is not exceptional because those phrases are nominal.


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