# Indefinite iDafa/iDaafa الإضافة (ـة taa' marbuuTa)



## theturkeyisfat

In the in definite idaafa phrase غرفة نوم (a bedroom), do you pronounce the taa marbuuta in the first word?


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## ayed

Yes, it is pronounced ..
If you want to follow the Arabic grammar say:
Ghurfat*u* nawm*in* .
If you do not want to bother youself with these grammars , say:
Ghurfat(...) nawm(...)


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## Taalib

How commonly is the taa marbuuta on the first term of the idafa pronounced, whether the entire construct is definite or indefinite, in the spectrum of Arabic dialects?


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## ayed

غُرْفَةُ نَوْمٍ
1.Ghurfa/tu nawmin: during an ongoing reading(MSA)
2.Ghurfa/tu nawm : if you stop at the last word"nawm"(MSA)
غُرْفَةُ النّوم 
1.Ghurfa/tunnawmi:during an ongoing reading(MSA)
2.Ghurfa/tunnawm :if you stop at the last word"an-nawm".
=======================================
* I am not a dialectician so as to give examples though I hope to be so.
*My dialect(Badawi Najdi):
1.Undefinitness :Ghur/ft nuum.However, during an ongoing speech , we retain the tanween :
"Ghurft nuumin(dialect)
*Definitness :Ghurftinnuum
pronunciation surely differs from a dialect to another.


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## cherine

Alchemy said:


> Hmm, what does نوم mean?


As the guys said, nawm is sleep. ghurfat(u) nawm(in) is "bedroom".



Taalib said:


> How commonly is the taa marbuuta on the first term of the idafa pronounced, whether the entire construct is definite or indefinite, in the spectrum of Arabic dialects?


I think it's very very common.
If we don't pronounce the taa2 words would sound a bit choppoed (?) and wrong.
I even found out something, while thinking of examples, that I never noticed before: 
In the Egyptian dialect we say:
3arabeyya = car
oDa = room
madrasa = school

When in an iDaafa structure, we say:
3arabeyyet sa7beti = my friend's car
odet nom = bedroom
madraset akhuya = my brother's school

I think the other dialects (or most of them) aren't very different from this; I mean the pronounciation of the "t". And I think this is the reason why the Arabic loan words in the other languages has the "t" as a fixed letter, even in non-iDaafa. Think of hikmet, gumhureyyet... (not sure about the writing, but I guess this is how these words -and other- are pronounced in Turkish, Urdu, Farsi...)


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## WadiH

Taalib said:


> How commonly is the taa marbuuta on the first term of the idafa pronounced, whether the entire construct is definite or indefinite, in the spectrum of Arabic dialects?


 
I've never heard anyone *not* pronounce it, except in the pidgin Arabic that's used by expatriate Asian workers in the Gulf region (ghurfa nom, ghurfa Hagg nom, ghurfa mal nom).


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## theturkeyisfat

Does that include those from the Indian Subcontinent?


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## WadiH

Yes most of them are in fact from there.


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## elroy

Palestinian Arabic is no exception.  We say _ghurfe_ and _ghurfe*t* noom_, and _*ghurfe noom_ sounds really weird.  Pronouncing the _t_ in idafa is such an integral part of colloquial grammar that we even apply it to loan words: _oode*t* noom_ (mentioned by Cherine), _sikriteere*t* ilmudiir_, _maakine*t* i7laa2a_, etc.


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## clevermizo

In the Levant as well, has this not also extended to some words that originally do not end in ة, like معنى?

e.g.: شو معنات* الكلمة? 'What is its meaning?'
instead of شو معنى الكلمة .

I find this interesting because it regularizes the change of anything with a suffix 'a,e' into -t.

I realize that this may be a generalization not present entirely in the Levant regions, or perhaps in variation with the إضافة sans 't'.


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## elroy

Absolutely!  Well noted.

In Palestinian Arabic, both forms exist for that particular word.  You can say "ma3na 'l-kilme" and "ma3naat il-kilme" (notice that in the second case the final vowel is elongated before the "t").

Another example that shows how widespread the "t" is, is names of some cities that do not even end with an "e" or an "a."  For example, "my Sakhnin" (a city in the north of Israel) would be "sakhniinti" and not "sakhniini" (which means "Sakhninean").


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## ayed

clevermizo said:


> In the Levant as well, has this not also extended to some words that originally do not end in ة, like معنى?
> 
> e.g.: شو معنات* الكلمة? 'What is its meaning?'
> instead of شو معنى الكلمة .


It does end in *"ة"* , Clevermizo!.It is written in Arabic as *شو* *معناة* *الكلمة*
and it is FuS.Ha word..


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## cherine

Are you sure Ayed? It would be interesting, because in Egypt we have this saying, that was used in a song:
منين أجيب ناس لمعناة الكلام يتلوه
Where can I find people who would understand [my] words.


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## WadiH

I was going to say the same thing that Ayed said.  معناة sounds like a word that conforms with Classical Arabic (think مرضاة الله).

Both معنى and معناة are used with idafah where I'm from.


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## Taalib

Ah, I see--so here is a strict grammatical convention that has survived localization in many different dialects.  Thanks!


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## WadiH

I would replace "many" with "all".


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