# 是...的



## Kirimaru

大 家 好 ！

I saw the two sentences using the  是 。。。。 的 structure like this:

1。我  们 是 去 年 九 月  来  上 海  的 。
2。 你   什 么时 候 去  的  上 海 ？

I wonder why both of the above sentences include a noun functioning as a object, but in the first one, 的 is put behind the object;whereas, 的 precedes it.

Please let me know.

Many thanks


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## Yasin

Hi, Kirimaru
The first senetence has 来上海  as object. It is a vebal phrase as object.
The second has 上海 as object. 

May such explanatinon hits the point.


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## Kirimaru

Thank you Yasin.
If so,what is the verb in the first sentence ? Can you tell me please.

One more thing I'd like to ask ^^

Again, we put 的 after the object来上海  in the first sentence but before the object 上海 in the second one. I'm afraid I haven't understood it much.
Please clarify it for me.

Many thanks


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## shivasprogeny

In the first sentence, the 是...的 is used to mark past tense.  "We _came_ to Shanghai..."

But I don't see 是 in the second sentence.


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## samanthalee

shivasprogeny said:


> But I don't see 是 in the second sentence.


是 was dropped. We can add it in if we like.
2。 你是什么时候去的上海？



Kirimaru said:


> Again, we put 的 after the object来上海 in the first sentence but before the object 上海 in the second one. I'm afraid I haven't understood it much.


I don't know much about explaining grammar. I understand the second sentence as "你是什么时候去的？我指的是上海。" Applying the habit of dropping non-contributory parts of sentences, the sentence became "你是什么时候去的？我指的是上海。"


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## xiaolijie

Kirimaru said:


> Again, we put 的 after the object来上海 in the first sentence but before the object 上海 in the second one. I'm afraid I haven't understood it much.
> Please clarify it for me.


When an object is involved in the 是 。。。。 的 construction, the 的 has the option of either following or preceding the object; so, as I understand it,your examples are equally valid to be put this way:

1。我 们 是 去 年 九 月 来 的上 海 。
2。 你 什 么时 候 去 上 海 的？

However, 的 preceding the object tends to be the preferred pattern in this usage because it echoes the pattern "modifying+的+modified" in Chinese.


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## AVim

Kirimaru said:


> 1。我  们 是 去 年 九 月  来  上 海  的 。
> 2。 你   什 么时 候 去  的  上 海 ？



1) Here '的' is an auxiliary of the whole sentence, used at the end of a declarative sentence for emphasis, often used correspondingly with '是'.
 我 们(subject)     ||    是          ('be' as verb) |  去 年 九 月 来 上 海 (a phrase as object) 的<aux>

2) Here '的' is an auxiliary of the '去',  often describes the past tense.
 你         (subject)||  [      什么时候 (adverbial pharse)]   去(verb)的<aux>  | 上海 (object)？


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## Yasin

Kirimaru said:


> If so,what is the verb in the first sentence ? Can you tell me please.
> [...]
> Again, we put 的 after the object来上海 in the first sentence but before the object 上海 in the second one.



Hi, 是 as verb in the first sentence.
In Chinese, the words such as 的,了, 得 were put afer verb,adjective noun. Such words were used to express  state of subjective and objective, also the state of verb's action.
For instance, 我饱了。他学习得很刻苦。
我吃了饭。
such words are ancillary, you can be blind to them in  analysing the   grammar structure.
我和（北京）的同学[高兴]地*参观*了（著名）的（万里）长城。


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## shivasprogeny

AVim said:


> 1) Here '的' is an auxiliary of the whole sentence, used at the end of a declarative sentence for emphasis, often used correspondingly with '是'.
> 我 们(subject)     ||    是          ('be' as verb) |  去 年 九 月 来 上 海 (a phrase as object) 的<aux>



We learned in class that 是...的 is another past tense marker that assumes the action happened in the past.  For instance you would ask, "你是什麽時候出生的?" instead of "你什麽時候出生了?" because it is obvious the person you are talking to has already been born.

Is this not the case in the example sentence?  My understanding is that the example means "We *came* to Shanghai last year in September."


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## Kirimaru

Many thanks to you, shivasprogeny, samanthalee, xiaolijie and Avim for your all ideas.


xiaolijie said:


> When an object is involved in the 是 。。。。 的 construction, the 的 has the option of either following or preceding the object.


My book 汉 语  教  程 says;

后 行 动 词 如 果 有 名 词 作 宾 语 时, 宾 语 常 常 放 在 "的”  后 边。

However, the book itself include some examples like the first sentence;
"我 们 是 去 年 九 月 来 上 海 的" with "的"following the object. That's why it makes me puzzled.


			
				AVim said:
			
		

> 1) Here '的' is an auxiliary of the whole sentence, used at the end of a declarative sentence for emphasis, often used correspondingly with '是'.
> 我 们(subject)     ||    是          ('be' as verb) |  去 年 九 月 来 上 海 (a phrase as object) 的<aux>
> 
> 2) Here '的' is an auxiliary of the '去',  often describes the past tense.
> 你         (subject)||  [      什么时候 (adverbial pharse)]   去(verb)的<aux>  | 上海 (object)？


Thanks a lot, Avim ,but could you please tell me when '的' performs the function of an auxiliary in a sentence and when it  functions as an auxiliary of  a verb?  How can I distinguish these two cases ?

Many thanks again ^^​


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## AVim

shivasprogeny said:


> We learned in class that 是...的 is another past tense marker that assumes the action happened in the past. For instance you would ask, "你是什麽時候出生的?" instead of "你什麽時候出生了?" because it is obvious the person you are talking to has already been born.



Yes, sometimes this form implies past tense, not always.  For example:
 这花是红的 (declares a state, not a past tense marker, right?)

When you describe an action, for example:
你是xx年出生的
*I think* the main function of 是... 的 here is also "declaring, confirming or emphasizing" the action, meanwhile, it implies the past tense (sub function).



			
				Kirimaru said:
			
		

> Thanks a lot, Avim ,but could you please tell me when '的' performs the function of an auxiliary in a sentence and when it functions as an auxiliary of a verb? How can I distinguish these two cases ?



when you encounter a '的' at the end of a sentence, you may take it as an auxiliary of the sentence. Another example from XianHan:
这事(儿)我知道的

In the 是... 的 form, I think, the '的' may also be considered as the auxiliary of '是' rather than the whole sentence, acceptable?  

Anyway, IMHO in my humble opinion, AFAIK as far as I know, there's no real grammer in the Chinese language, so the best way to learn the language is imitating.


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## Zulis

AVim said:


> ...
> 
> Anyway, IMHO, AFAIK, there's no real grammer in the Chinese language, so the best way to learn the language is imitating.



In a sense yes, but just most of the time Chinese follow certain (subtle) rules, just not as clearly stated as in Western languages.

IMO in Chinese we have no tenses, so 是...的 clauses simply do not imply any time issues to me. What determines the tenses is the context itself or by using words like "昨天" "以前" "明天" "下星期" etc to indicate time. The example above about "出生" already has a past-tense sense in it.



Kirimaru said:


> ........
> 
> However, the book itself include some examples like the first sentence;
> "我 们 是 去 年 九 月 来 上 海 的" with "的"following the object. That's why it makes me puzzled.
> .......



This is because "的" here doesn't really have meaning.

Personally I do not think that "的" is a auxiliary in "1。我 们 是 去 年 九 月 来 上 海 的 。" If you drop the 的, I can understand it just fine, because "去年九月" has already given enough info about the action "來" is in past-tense

For 2 it is a bit tricky because it sounds strange to me.
2。 你 什 么时 候 去 的 上 海 ?
But it will sound just fine if it is like this :
2。 你 什 么时 候 去 上 海 的 ?

the 的 cannot be dropped here because it vaguely implies the sentence is in past-tense. If it is dropped, it becomes :

"你 什 么时 候 去 上 海?" Now to me it implies future tense "when WILL you go to Shanghai?"

However, I think 2 as in sentence level is sort of ambiguous that triggers discussion on whether or not "的" is an auxiliary because "去" can imply quite a few meanings..


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## AVim

Hi Kirimaru, 
I came across a book called <<现代实用汉语语法>> in library today. The author use one whole chapter to interpret the "是... 的" form, which is different from some dictionary and more complex than what I've thought.

One may have his own way to describe and classify the phenomenon of the language,  so you may pick up the interpretation which is easier for you to comprehend.


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## Kirimaru

Thank you, Avim.
To be honest, I feel that what written in the textbook is sometimes very difficult to explain. That makes learners, like me, think that a foreign language is more difficult than it actually is. Even my teacher feels puzzled about it too, I'm afraid to say.

To Zulis: I'll keep in mind what you said about the tense implication of "是... 的" structure. Thanks a lot ^^


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## Skatinginbc

xiaolijie said:


> 的 preceding the object tends to be the preferred pattern in this usage


的 following the object (e.g., 你什么时候去上海的, 是我先到爺爺家的) tends to be the preferred pattern in Taiwan Mandarin.  的 preceding the object (e.g., 你什么时候去的上海, 是我先到的爺爺家) oozes a dialectal flavor to me (perhaps 北方官話).

However, when the verb phrase is a set phrase (e.g., 看病, 打针, 做饭) that is commonly listed as an entry in the dictionary, the dialectal flavor seems to reduce significantly (e.g., 是張医生給我看的病, 是你给我打的针, 是你帮我做的饭).


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