# She will ask



## Gwunderi

Shalom

Future of ask (2nd f. and 2nd and 3rd pl.)
תשאלי
הם ישאלו
Do you spell it "tish*a*li" and "hem tish*a*lu" or "tishli" and "hem jishlu"?
I have only one example with לצחוק, and there you say "tizkhaki" and "jizchaku", but I'm not sure if the "a" here is only because of the many consonants - "tish*a*li" sounds a bit strange to me and I don't want to learn the whole group with the wrong spelling.

Toda raba


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## arbelyoni

תשאלי - tish'ali (2nd person, feminine singular)
תשאלו - tish'alu (2nd person, feminine/masculine plural)
ישאלו - yish'alu (3rd person, feminine/masculine plural)

The root שאל is a "strong verb" (belongs to גזרת השלמים), so Aleph is always pronounced as a consonant (glottal stop) in all forms of the verb.


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## TrampGuy

The above is correct, as were you (almost). Since you're native German you might find the 3rd person easier to read as "jish'alu" (just like you thought of it).


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## Gwunderi

arbelyoni said:


> The root שאל is a "strong verb" (belongs to גזרת השלמים), so Aleph is always pronounced as a consonant (glottal stop) in all forms of the verb.



 Sometimes it sounds strange only till you get used to it 

I had to look what ?זרת השלמים means: it's the regular verbs with three root consonants.
Than I think it's the same reason why you maintain the "e" in "tishme'I" (hear), the ע is a root consonant. 

And I found now also the verb לשמוח - here you say "tismekhi" and not "tismakhi", so it's not always an "a" like in the example. I have about 200 tables with the pronunciation, but the important verb "to ask" is not mentionned there.

Thank you very much


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## Gwunderi

TrampGuy said:


> The above is correct, as were you (almost). Since you're native German you might find the 3rd person easier to read as "jish'alu" (just like you thought of it).



 But now that I got used that in the past you say "awda" and not "awada" (you worked) - now the rules change again !!!


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## TrampGuy

Gwunderi said:


> But now that I got used that in the past you say "awda" and not "awada" (you worked) - now the rules change again !!!



I was just saying, since the German 'j' sounds "as" the English 'y', it might look more natural to you.

So, worked (feminine singular) would be : 'avda' in English and 'awda' in German due to the similarities of v-w sounds in both languages. I can't see how you confused it with "awada"?

(I'm not good with transliterations so I hope it sounds ok.)


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## Gwunderi

TrampGuy said:


> I was just saying, since the German 'j' sounds "as" the English 'y', it might look more natural to you.
> 
> So, worked (feminine singular) would be : 'avda' in English and 'awda' in German due to the similarities of v-w sounds in both languages. I can't see how you confused it with "awada"?



 Oh, I didn't realize that in English "j" sounds like in "just" or "jump" and not like the "y" in "yesterday" (as you say, in German it sound like the English "y").
I confused "avda" and "avada" because the 3rd masculin singular form (the one you learn first) is "avad", so if you join an "a" in the feminine form it should become "avada". And it was very hard for me  to get used to say "avda" and "avdu".


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## TrampGuy

Gwunderi said:


> Oh, I didn't realize that in English "j" sounds like in "just" or "jump" and not like the "y" in "yesterday" (as you say, in German it sound like the English "y").
> I confused "avda" and "avada" because the 3rd masculin singular form (the one you learn first) is "avad", so if you join an "a" in the feminine form it should become "avada". And it was very hard for me  to get used to say "avda" and "avdu".



Ah yes, now I see  Btw, if you really didn't know about the j-y thing - how come it didn't confuse you to see "*y*ish'alu"?


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## Gwunderi

TrampGuy said:


> Ah yes, now I see  Btw, if you really didn't know about the j-y thing - how come it didn't confuse you to see "*y*ish'alu"?



I just didn't think about it or didn't really realize it (as it sounds the same way in my ears).
Hope I will remember the different spellings in the future. (And in Italian, my second mother tongue, "j" and "y" don't even exist.)


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## JaiHare

Look at the difference:

תִּמְזְגוּ - you (pl) will pour
תִּמְסְרוּ - you (pl) will pass on
תִּנְעֲלוּ - you (pl) will lock (or, put on shoes!)
תִּשְׁאֲלוּ - you (pl) will ask

There are two things playing here:

(1) In the first two examples, we have two shevas side-by-side. The first is silent, while the second is vocal. It takes on a small (e) sound. So, it's not _tim-sru_ but _tim-se-ru_ (if shrinking the _e_ makes it any clearer).

(2) In the final two examples, we have guttural letters as middle radicals, and these take a quality vowel. It is considered a half-vowel, but it basically sounds like a full one. This is why you hear _tish-a-lu_ in your example.

Just to provide a full answer, since your topic specifically asks how you say "she will ask," it is exactly like the second-person masculine singular: תשאל _tish-al_, which is a full vowel anyway!


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## Gwunderi

Shalom JaiHare

(1) This sheva gave me indeed some problems at the beginning. The first explanation of the vowel marks I read said that sheva is "mostly mute", so I learned "hu mvaker" or, even better, "hu mlamed". I don't think there is a rule when to speak a "small e" after a sheva? (I now know e.g. that all pi'el verbs begin with "me..." in the conjugated form of the present.)

(2) With א and ע I think I had misunderstood something: when I begun learning I read somewhere that א and ע don't have a specific sound, but that it depends on the vowel marks, or on the following ו - and that is only half-true. They DO also have a sound of their own, isn't it?
The א I think is like the first letter in ארבע (this guttural "a"), and ע sounds nearly the same way? I than also went through my vocabulary list and realized that there's not a single word with a mute א or ע. Before this I threatened these two letters nearly as "non existent" for their own.

I think this is correct and (hope) I understood it now?

P.S. How did you write these beautiful letters? with Unicode? I try to write a word now, to see how it looks תוֹדַה
It should be toda raba!


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## JaiHare

Gwunderi said:


> Shalom JaiHare
> 
> (1) This sheva gave me indeed some problems at the beginning. The first explanation of the vowel marks I read said that sheva is "mostly mute", so I learned "hu mvaker" or, even better, "hu mlamed". I don't think there is a rule when to speak a "small e" after a sheva? (I now know e.g. that all pi'el verbs begin with "me..." in the conjugated form of the present.)



There are actually rules about when it's vocal (na) and when it's silent (nach). Perhaps someone will spell them out for you. I have to get dressed right now, because I'm hopping on a plane to Berlin in a couple of hours. If no one has written this out for you by the time I get back on (later tonight), I'll set out to do so (בלי נדר).



Gwunderi said:


> (2) With א and ע I think I had misunderstood something: when I begun learning I read somewhere that א and ע don't have a specific sound, but that it depends on the vowel marks, or on the following ו - and that is only half-true. They DO also have a sound of their own, isn't it?
> The א I think is like the first letter in ארבע (this guttural "a"), and ע sounds nearly the same way? I than also went through my vocabulary list and realized that there's not a single word with a mute א or ע. Before this I threatened these two letters nearly as "non existent" for their own.
> 
> I think this is correct and (hope) I understood it now?
> 
> P.S. How did you write these beautiful letters? with Unicode? I try to write a word now, to see how it looks תוֹדַה
> It should be toda raba!



Alef is the stop in the throat that comes between two separately pronounced vowels. We don't hear it in English since we assign it no written value. You have to at least hear the pause that it creates, though, as in the word _coordinate_, where the _oo_ are not pronounced as a single vowel but as _co-ordinate_ (which is why we used to write _coördinate_ in English, as we often still write _naïve_).

Ayin is another creature entirely. You have to hear it to understand. Those who use the pronunciation of ayin when speaking Hebrew have a very different sound. It is not the majority in Israel, by the way. Most pronounce ayin like alef. There is a sizable minority, though, who pronounce it as they do in Arabic. I can't explain it. Maybe someone else would like to. (I don't pronounce ayin unless I have to stress that a certain word has ayin to distinguish it from another word.)


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## Gwunderi

JaiHare said:


> If no one has written this out for you by the time I get back on (later tonight), I'll set out to do so (בלי נדר).


You were already very helpful. And I wouldn't have taken it personnally (?) if you said that you have no time now. Next time you surely may (as I will).

BTW I found that there are some cases where א and ע are mute.
In the plural: שומעים, מוצאים etc. In ארבעים the ע is pronounced, but in תשעים not.
(So perhaps it had its reasons why you made the examples with the middle radicals?)

And as Hebrew has a consonant alphabeth it would be strange if it had letters which are vocals. Indeed you write "they _take_ a quality vowel".
From a list of the alphabeth: א = "glottal stop" / ע = "for simplicity, like a glottal stop".



> Alef is the stop in the throat that comes between two separately pronounced vowels. We don't hear it in English since we assign it no written value. You have to at least hear the pause that it creates, though, as in the word _coordinate_, where the _oo_ are not pronounced as a single vowel but as _co-ordinate_ (which is why we used to write _coördinate_ in English, as we often still write _naïve_).


So I think I really got it now - I indeed hear these pauses, like in שואל (scho'el), מאוד (me'od) etc. Also if it's at the beginning of a word like in אוכל where you read an open "o" with a little break between, even if you nearly don't hear it. So I think the main problem with א is resolved now. (And with the ע perhaps I'll get it too one day.)

I hope you had a good flight and a good (though very short) stay in Berlin; I never was yet. So now we can speak German together  I take your בלי נדר seriously, if you have no time or are not in the mood to answer after your trip, I'll really not be offended at all. Perhaps I'll find something in the internet with the shevas, but it's not urgent.

שלום and "Tschüss" like they say in Berlin


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## JaiHare

I just got off my flight, and I'm going to have a shower. 

The ע in תשעים is actually pronounced by those who pronounce the letter.

There are indeed words in which aleph is _not_ pronounced, and this is called _quiescent aleph_ (in English grammar terms). An example of this is רֹאשׁ _rosh_, in which the aleph really serves no purpose. There are many words like this, and you can identify in situations in which the aleph does not carry its own vowel. In the Bible, the change from אֱלֹהִים to לֵאלֹהִים contains a change from consonant aleph to quiescent aleph.

Ayin, technically, should never be silent. If it appears, it should be pronounced. Only aleph quiesces.

The issue of _sh'va_ will occupy me for a little while. Let me take a shower and then I'll try to handle it as successfully and clearly as I can.


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## JaiHare

{By the way...}

I use the font SBL HEBREW and back it up with TIMES NEW ROMAN and just make the font large.

... [.... close tags ....]


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## Gwunderi

JaiHare said:


> The ע in תשעים is actually pronounced by those who pronounce the letter.
> 
> There are indeed words in which aleph is _not_ pronounced, and this is called _quiescent aleph_ (in English grammar terms). An example of this is רֹאשׁ _rosh_, in which the aleph really serves no purpose. There are many words like this, and you can identify in situations in which the aleph does not carry its own vowel. In the Bible, the change from אֱלֹהִים to לֵאלֹהִים contains a change from consonant aleph to quiescent aleph.
> 
> Ayin, technically, should never be silent. If it appears, it should be pronounced. Only aleph quiesces.



Wow, that was really a VERY short trip - hope you are well refreshed now 

In my book the pronounciation is written "arba'im", but "tish'im"; so it's not really the same sound? Do you mean that in תשעים there's a stop before -im, or is there also this "strange sound" I should hear to understand?

Yes, in ראש aleph is really mute (quiescent aleph), another is שמאל I think, and I think these are the only such words I know till now.

I newer heard/read לאלהים or of this change - the ל here is not a prefix, but belongs to the word?

I now have also two hard working days before me, so let you all the time you need ...

 תודה רבה


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## JaiHare

אֱלֹהִים > לֵאלֹהִים
אֲדֹנִי > לַאדֹנִי


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## JaiHare

So, sh'va tends to close a syllable. When it does so, it is silent (sh'va nach).

If sh'va follows a long vowel (regular kamats [a rather than o], tsere, holam, hirek-yod, etc.) in an unstressed syllable, then it is vocal (sh'va na). There are long vowels and short vowels.

If there are two sh'vas together, the first is always silent and the second is always vocal.

If a sh'va comes at the beginning of a word, it is vocal (though most Israelis tend to drop it if they can create a consonant cluster).


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## Gwunderi

JaiHare said:


> אֱלֹהִים > לֵאלֹהִים
> אֲדֹנִי > לַאדֹנִי



Yes, "technically", I see what you mean:
In the new words there's no more need for the aleph to carry the "e" or "a", so it becomes a "cuiescent aleph". 
But you say that in the Bible there was a change from אלהים to לאלהים, and I never heard of this and also don't find it on internet. The same for אדני ("my Lord"). Or do you really mean only the prefix ל? 

I think also ראש underwent a change in the time, and that the aleph is a "remain" of an older form? (I supposed this already when I saw the word for the first time).

And there's still something not really clear with aleph: Is it a guttural stop also in אלוהים, or in אני or אצל e.g. - or has it only the function to carry the vocal in these words? (In אני it's difficult for me to say if there's a pause (a'ni) or if it's simply because the accent is on the "i" (anI), as it sounds the same.)

For the shevas I must look for examples to see if I've understood it, I hadn't time yet.

And funny thing: Tonight I dreamt that you were a pilot, perhaps because I "saw" you in the plane while writing the post; funny, isn't it?


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## arielipi

Imot kria serve to help us read words. The letters alef,he,vav,yod are the imot kria. We dont always pronounce the sound of the letter, but we write ti just like you have aeuio in english.
alef = a,o, i(rarely)
ayin = e
vav = u,o
yod = i


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## JaiHare

arielipi said:


> Imot kria serve to help us read words. The letters alef,he,vav,yod are the imot kria. We dont always pronounce the sound of the letter, but we write ti just like you have aeuio in english.
> alef = a,o, i(rarely)
> ayin = e
> vav = u,o
> yod = i



It's true that ע = e in Yiddish, but that certainly is not the case in Hebrew. It's never used as a vowel letter (אֵם קְרִיאָה = Latin, _mater lectionis_) in Hebrew, as far as I know.

There are also very few words in which א is used as a vowel letter. In most cases, it is simply a root letter (אוֹת שֹׁרֶשׁ) that has quiesced (as I mentioned above). (Interestingly, the _o_ of רֹאשׁ is actually _a_ in Arabic رأس! Notice that the hamsa corresponds to the Hebrew aleph.)

The vowel letter that refers to a is actually ה, which occurs in this way mostly at the end of words. He also has no consonantal quality after other vowels at the end of words (for example, כֹּה and מוֹרֶה).


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## OsehAlyah

Gwunderi said:


> And there's still something not really clear with aleph: Is it a guttural stop also in אלוהים, or in אני or אצל e.g. - or has it only the function to carry the vocal in these words? (In אני it's difficult for me to say if there's a pause (a'ni) or if it's simply because the accent is on the "i" (anI), as it sounds the same.)


I believe the stop would come *before* a ('ani) and not after (a'ni). Someone correct me if I'm wrong please.


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## amikama

*The discussion about transliteration and pronunciation of ח/כ is now in a separate thread. *


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## JaiHare

OsehAlyah said:


> I believe the stop would come *before* a ('ani) and not after (a'ni). Someone correct me if I'm wrong please.



Yep.


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## arielipi

Sorry, i was tired at the time -
he = a

now words that come from arabic:
he = e
alef = a

ayin is a semi-em kria that acts as e


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## Gwunderi

OsehAlyah said:


> I believe the stop would come *before* a ('ani) and not after (a'ni). Someone correct me if I'm wrong please.


 Indeed also in my online dictionnary the pronunciation is written «'anI», as there are many words beginning with this: 'Etzel, 'agAw and many others. But I never understood this, since there's a stop before a new word anyway (although I'm sure there's a reason for these '). I would simply write "anI". So I have no difficulties with it, I simply "ignore" this sign at the beginning of a word and speak the words as I hear them on my CD or in online videos. 
For the beginning I think that's enough to know for me ... 

Thank you for all explanations.


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## JaiHare

Gwunderi said:


> Indeed also in my online dictionnary the pronunciation is written «'anI», as there are many words beginning with this: 'Etzel, 'agAw and many others. But I never understood this, since there's a stop before a new word anyway (although I'm sure there's a reason for these '). I would simply write "anI". So I have no difficulties with it, I simply "ignore" this sign at the beginning of a word and speak the words as I hear them on my CD or in online videos.
> For the beginning I think that's enough to know for me ...
> 
> Thank you for all explanations.



Don't forget that syllables (and, indeed, words) cannot begin with a vowel in Hebrew! So, you cannot write _ani_ without a consonant at the beginning of the word - and that is the purpose of the aleph, to hold the vowel so that it can begin a word (or syllable). When it doesn't serve this function, it is called "quiescent," as I mentioned before.


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## Gwunderi

JaiHare said:


> Don't forget that syllables (and, indeed, words) cannot begin with a vowel in Hebrew! So, you cannot write _ani_ without a consonant at the beginning of the word - and that is the purpose of the aleph, to hold the vowel so that it can begin a word (or syllable). When it doesn't serve this function, it is called "quiescent," as I mentioned before.



I could not forget it since I never heard before that syllabes (and words) cannot begin with a vowel in Hebrew. So this explains this 'at the beginning of a word (so I'll only half-ignore them in future ). _Now_ it's all clear - תודה רבה


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