# CA/MSA: Plural of سنة



## Drink

When is سنوات used and when is سنون/سنين used? Or is it just a matter of preference?


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## AndyRoo

Hi,

سنين is generally used to mean "many years" while سنوات usually means "years".


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## rajulbat

I sometimes here things like عشرة سنين  (ten years) or طوار السنين (over the years), but I've never heard anyone say سنون

As AndyRoo says, سنوات is the conventional plural for سنة in my experience.


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## Drink

rajulbat said:


> but I've never heard anyone say سنون



That's because سنون is just the nominative case of سنين, and the dialects don't use cases. But I am asking about Classical Arabic and Modern Standard Arabic.


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## rajulbat

Yes, I'm referring to spoken MSA that I've heard on news programs, for example. I realize that سنون is nominative, and I guess it doesn't come up much because it is not very common that you would have it in a nominative position. It's usually always preceded by a preposition. Maybe:
السنون الأطول تقع كل أربع سنوات,
but it seems like a most unlikely thing to say .


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## Drink

You're right, but what I'm really asking about is سنون/سنين (taken as a whole) compared to سنواب. I'm not asking about the difference between سنون and سنين.

So what I've gathered so far is that in MSA, سنين is used in some expressions, but سنوات is the norm. But what about in CA?


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## Matat

سنون (nominative) and سنين (accusative/genitive) are used in MSA as well as سنوات, though سنوات is used more often based on my experience.
Here is a list of recent news articles that use سنون/سنين: (nominative) http://www.google.com/#tbm=nws&q="سنون"
and (accusative/genitive) http://www.google.com/#q="سنين"&tbm=nws&start=0

In Classical Arabic, it is actually used more than سنوات. The Quran uses this plural numerous times. Here are three examples: 



فِي بِضْعِ سِنِينَ لِلَّهِ الْأَمْرُ مِن قَبْلُ وَمِن بَعْدُ وَيَوْمَئِذٍ يَفْرَحُ الْمُؤْمِنُونَ 
30:4

قَالَ تَزْرَعُونَ سَبْعَ سِنِينَ دَأَبًا فَمَا حَصَدتُّمْ فَذَرُوهُ فِي سُنبُلِهِ إِلَّا قَلِيلًا مِّمَّا تَأْكُلُونَ
12:47

فَضَرَبْنَا عَلَىٰ آذَانِهِمْ فِي الْكَهْفِ سِنِينَ عَدَدًا
18:11


سنون/سنين is an unusual noun that works like a regular masculine human plural. Another word that does this is مئون/مئين (hundreds) which is the plural of مائة (hundred). Though, مائة has another plural مئات which is used much more often.


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## Schem

My Arabic grammar knowledge may need some dusting but doesn't سنون belong to some sort of جمع الجموع "über plural" broken plural pattern? I don't think it's simply a matter of grammatical case. I remember being taught specific cases where it may be used.


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## Drink

Schem said:


> My Arabic grammar knowledge may need some dusting but doesn't سنون belong to some sort of جمع الجموع "über plural" broken plural pattern? I don't think it's simply a matter of grammatical case. I remember being taught specific cases where it may be used.



I thought it's a sound plural (جمع سالم).


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## Matat

Schem: Yes I believe it is جمع الجمع ,but it is not broken nor a diptote . It works like جمع سالم مذكر (regular masculine plural) , which is extremely rare for non-human nouns. In Standard Arabic, سنون is considered to be the 'stronger' plural so to speak than is سنوات. I think it is credible to think of it as سنوات is the plural of سنة, and سنون is the plural of سنوات, as how جمع الجمع (plural of plurals) works.

Drink: I forgot to answer your main question. Generally speaking, yes, it is a matter of preference, though as mentioned earlier, سنون has a stronger meaning than سنوات


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## ajamiyya عجمية

Matat said:


> Drink: I forgot to answer your main question. Generally speaking, yes, it is a matter of preference, though as mentioned earlier, سنون has a stronger meaning than سنوات



The plural السنين can connote years of famine and privation.  I am unfamiliar with any similar usage of the plural سناوات .

الكتب *» *الجامع لأحكام القرآن *» *سورة الأعراف *» *قوله تعالى ولقد أخذنا آل فرعون بالسنين ونقص من الثمرات*

** تعالى ولقد أخذنا آل فرعون بالسنين يعني الجدوب . وهذا معروف في اللغة ; يقال : أصابتهم سنة ، أي جدب . وتقديره جدب سنة . وفي الحديث :اللهم اجعلها عليهم سنين كسني يوسف . ومن العرب من يعرب النون في السنين ; وأنشد الفراء : 
أرى مر السنين أخذن مني كما أخذ السرار من الهلال​
This quote was taken from Tafseer Al QurTubi and offers an alternate definition of both singular سنة and  plural سنين .  For some reason, the edit function is not available to me, so I hope that Cherine will be kind enough to merge this with my previous post.  Thank you. 

*


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## rightnow

Hi,

a feminine noun cannot form its plural using the masculine sound plural. Yet, the first vowel changes from فتحة into كسرة, so I wonder whether this change implies that سنون/سنين is 'theoretically' a broken plural.

Otherwise, I'd like to know the reason why the first vowel is changed.

Thanks in advance.


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## Drink

Sound plurals often have a different stem than the singular. For example, اِبْن becomes بَنُون, and اِبْنَة or بِنْت becomes بَنَات.


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## rightnow

Hi, those examples are obviously special for several reasons, among them the biconsonantal root or their being borrowings from other languages.


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## Drink

They were not borrowed from other languages. Doesn't سَنَة also have a seemingly biconsonantal root?


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## rightnow

Indeed it does, which is why I meantioned it. Quranic terms should also be left out for they're fossilized forms.
Therefore, do you agree with me that it's rather جَمْعُ تَكْسِيرٍ what سنين shows?


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## Drink

No I don't agree. Broken plural just means it doesn't have one of the plural suffixes. Look at the declension: nom. سِنُونَ and gen./acc. سِنِينَ, as opposed to a broken plural like عُيُونٌ with the gen. عُيُونٍ and acc. عُيُونًا.


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## rightnow

Drink said:


> Broken plural just means it doesn't have one of the plural suffixes


O.k. I agree. Now, the question which remains unsolved is why the initial فتحة turns into كسرة ? I am not very fluent, so perhaps it's quite common or a norm that I am unaware of (I cannot think of any other example in which an internal vowel changes in sound plurals)


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## Drink

I just gave you other examples. Some more examples: أُخْت becomes أَخَوَات, and there are many nouns in the pattern فَعْلَة that become فَعَلَات, like حَمْلَة becomes حَمَلَات, and many nouns in the pattern فُعْلَة have sound plurals فُعُلَات or فُعَلَات in addition to فُعْلَات, for example ظُلْمَة becomes ظُلُمَات or ظُلَمَات or ظُلْمَات. Same goes for the فِعْلَة pattern.


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## rightnow

Drink said:


> I just gave you other examples


Thank you. I'd like to know how to figure out when and what vowel must be added, for there seems to be variance among different terms.
Are there groups/lists of terms following different patterns? In English, I learned irregular verbs (put-put-put; bite-bit), or irregular plurals (mouse-mice) that way, memorizing lists of terms.

Hi again, I've just found in wiktionary that رئة may have both plurals رِئَات or رِئُون ‎. Could you, please, confirm whether this is true? If so, I had assumed a false statement in my first post.


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## Drink

Yes, both the Hans Wehr Dictionary and Lane's Lexicon give both plurals رِئُون and رِئَات.


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## rightnow

Sorry, I forgot to mention I am interested in whether both are actually heard today, whether in 'MSA' or native dialects.


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## Drink

Both of these dictionaries list رِئُون first, so I assume that one is more common. Hans Wehr is more of an MSA dictionary, while Lane's Lexicon is more of a Classical dictionary. I can't tell you how much people actually use them, I'm not a native speaker. From searching Google, it seems that the dual (رِئَتَان/رِئَتَيْن) is more common than the plural anyway.


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## rightnow

Drink said:


> the dual is more common than the plural.


Yeah, that makes sense totally.


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## Drink

سنين however is used and quite common in dialects in my experience.


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