# کـ before personal pronouns



## Treaty

Hi,

Is کـ ("like") used before personal pronouns ـه, ها, ي, etc? If so, how is کي pronounced?

Thanks.


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## elroy

It is not.


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## Abu Talha

Just to add, مثلي ، مثلك ، مثله are used instead.


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## Treaty

Thanks.


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## Stranger_

Is there an apparent reason for not using it before personal pronouns in particular?


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## Ectab

The arabic preposition ka means (like, as) is used with nouns and preposition inna, anna, and an.
well but it is not used with personal pronouns like: ee, hu, haa...etc
i don't know why and don't think there is a reason anyway. The other prepositions like li,bi.. are used with personal pronouns. but ka is not!
we use instead mithla.
mithlee, mithlahu...etc


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## elroy

I just don't think there would be any _semantic _reason - or very few semantic reasons - to use كـ with a pronoun - in _any_ language.  What contexts are you thinking of, Treaty?

By the way, كـ and مثل are not always interchangeable!

أنا أعمل كمعلم - I work as a teacher. / I _am_ a teacher.
أنا أعمل مثل معلم - I work like a teacher. / I'm not a teacher, but I do some things the way a teacher would.


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## Drink

How would you say something like "I starred in the movie as you" (this is, for example, something that Eddie Redmayne could say to the real-life Stephen Hawking about the movie _The Theory of Everything_)? Wouldn't you normally use كـ in that situation if it weren't a pronoun?


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## elroy

I would say لعبت دورك في الفيلم.  Even if it weren't a pronoun I wouldn't use كـ (for example, لعبت دور الطبيب).

(in movie credits, etc.) _Eddie Redmayne as Stephen Hawkung _= إيدي ريدماين في دور ستيفن هوكينع

Do you know if Hebrew would use כ for any of these?


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## Drink

elroy said:


> I would say لعبت دورك في الفيلم.  Even if it weren't a pronoun I wouldn't use كـ (for example, لعبت دور الطبيب).
> 
> (in movie credits, etc.) _Eddie Redmayne as Stephen Hawkung _= إيدي ريدماين في دور ستيفن هوكينع
> 
> Do you know if Hebrew would use כ for any of these?



You definitely say "אני עובד כמורה" ("I work as a teacher"). With כיכב (to star) it seems that usually you would use בתפקיד (in the role of), but I think it's possible to also use כ. But my everyday-Hebrew instincts are not that great.

But what I was trying to do was to force a situation in Arabic where you could conceivably use كـ with a specific person, and then ask what would happen when you want to replace the person with a pronoun. Perhaps you could more easily come up with such a situation. In colloquial English, it is common to use a person to refer to the person's role. For example, "He works for them as a Tom Hagen" (a _Godfather_ reference) would mean he works as a consigliere (mafia advisor). And you could even use a pronoun: "After I leave, you'll be working as me." Maybe you can't do exactly that in Arabic, but hopefully you can think of a comparable situation.


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## Stranger_

Can this "کـ" be attached to "مثل"? I am sure it can because I have seen many verses in the Quran with the word "کمثل" like 29:41, 62:5, 59:16, 2:261, 2:17, but why? isn't "کـ" redundant here?


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## fdb

ka- is used very rarely with pronominal suffixes (ka-hu) and more commonly with independent personal pronouns (ka-huwa). There are some examples in Wright’s Grammar II p. 177.


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## elroy

The word used in all of those verses is مَثَل not مِثْل.

كَمَثَل is literally "like the example of." 

In all but 59:16, the structure is مثل...كمثل.  مثل is found on either side of كـ. ("The example of X is like the example of Y.")


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## Matat

fdb said:


> ka- is used very rarely with pronominal suffixes (ka-hu) and more commonly with independent personal pronouns (ka-huwa). There are some examples in Wright’s Grammar II p. 177.



Hi fdb, can you recheck the page number? I looked on p. 177 of the second volume, but didn't find any mention of this.


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## fdb

3rd edition (Caspari-Wright-Smith-de Goeje), volume II, p. 177, Remark a.


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## Matat

fdb said:


> 3rd edition (Caspari-Wright-Smith-de Goeje), volume II, p. 177, Remark a.


Found it. Thank you.


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## elroy

Drink said:


> But what I was trying to do was to force a situation in Arabic where you could conceivably use كـ with a specific person, and then ask what would happen when you want to replace the person with a pronoun. Perhaps you could more easily come up with such a situation. In colloquial English, it is common to use a person to refer to the person's role. For example, "He works for them as a Tom Hagen" (a _Godfather_ reference) would mean he works as a consigliere (mafia advisor). And you could even use a pronoun: "After I leave, you'll be working as me." Maybe you can't do exactly that in Arabic, but hopefully you can think of a comparable situation.


 I think such situations are few and would always involve rewording in Arabic:

عندما أغادر ستقوم أنت بوظيفتي/بمهمتي
يعمل لديهم كأحد أمثال توم هايجن
etc. 

I should also add that for "to work as," you don't even need كـ (and in fact, it may be prescriptively incorrect): أنا أعمل معلمًا، هو يعمل طبيبًا، إلخ.

fdb's "very rarely" probably means "never, except in poetry and suchlike."  And his "more commonly" probably means "marginally/negligibly more commonly."  Neither form is in any way common in MSA, and they are both likely to confuse native speakers or be perceived as mistakes.


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