# 给他打没打电话？ / 给没给他打电话？



## stelingo

In an exercise from NCPR1 I have to change statements into questions by using the verb not verb structure. I'm not sure how to do this with the following sentence:

你上午给他打了电话。

Would it be:

你上午给他打没打电话？

or

你上午给没给他打电话？

Thanks in advance.


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## xiaolijie

Auxiliary elements (such as _may, can, not_, etc.) have to come with the first verb, so your sentence should be "你上午*给没给*他打电话？"


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## gvergara

By the way, our teacher told us that in the case of verbs made up of two or more syllables it is more common to repeat only the first syllable; however, in the textbooks I've been using as reference (which are a far cry from formal Chinese) the "not" is put between the "complete" forms of the verbs. For example: 

Version "teacher": 你*喜**不喜欢*喝茶？
Version "textbook": 你*喜欢**不喜欢*喝茶？

Is one actually preferrable over the other? Thanks in advance, 
G.


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## stellari

Your teacher's version is BETTER, but not the BEST. Usually people don't use both "verb+不+verb" an "...吗" in a question like this. You can say either 你喜不喜欢喝茶？or 你喜欢喝茶吗？


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## gvergara

Sorry, that was a typo! (my fault) Thanks


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## SuperXW

Although 你上午给没给他打电话？sounds better,
I think 你上午给他打没打电话？ is also acceptable.
In a casual situation, it's very possible people talk like this.


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## stellari

stelingo said:


> In an exercise from NCPR1 I have to change statements into questions by using the verb not verb structure. I'm not sure how to do this with the following sentence:
> 
> 你上午给他打了电话。
> 
> Would it be:
> 
> 你上午给他打没打电话？
> 
> or
> 
> 你上午给没给他打电话？
> 
> Thanks in advance.



Grammatically, I would say 你上午给没给他打电话？is more correct. However, I personally use the other version "你上午给他打没打电话" sometimes, if I feel the verb '打' must be stressed. So  I'd say this version is also acceptable colloquially. By the way, my preferred way to ask this question is: 你上午给他打电话没(有)？


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## DernierVirage

stellari said:


> Grammatically, I would say 你上午给没给他打电话？is more correct. However, I personally use the other version "你上午给他打没打电话" sometimes, if I feel the verb '打' must be stressed. So  I'd say this version is also acceptable colloquially. By the way, my preferred way to ask this question is: 你上午给他打电话没(有)？



Would you ever say 你上午给他打电话*了*没有 (and, if so, would there be any small difference in meaning)? The reason I ask is that I would have automatically added the "le" and I am interested to see that a native speaker didn't !


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## xiaolijie

There is no difference in meaning between the two versions. As I said in  *a similar thread*,  了 in this case is a spoken feature. It's optional and carries no significant additional meaning, if at all.


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## zhg

I totally agree the second sentence is better however the first sentence is not bad if you reword it in this way 你上午打没打电话给他？It's a matter of style if one wants to stress 给他 or 打电话,The more important verb goes first,and also a little guess, I don't know if this is true or even written in a gramma book but when there are two verbs in a roll it seems natural for me to"verb not verb" the first verb.
2.Stricly speaking with or without 了 is similar to the difference between "did" and "have done" but like xiaolijie has mentioned it's optional and is not as important as in English to native Chinese speaker.


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## SuperXW

There are sooo many ways to express the same meaning:
你上午给他打没打电话？
你上午给没给他打电话？
你上午有没有给他打电话？
你上午给他打了电话没有？
你上午给他打电话了没有？
你上午打没打过电话给他？
你上午给没给过他电话？
你上午给他打电话了吗？
……


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## BJren

“你上午给他打没打电话”， 突出重点是“打电话”， 你也许给他发电子邮件了，也许手机给他发短信了，但是你打没打电话呢？

“你上午给没给他打电话”， 突出重点是“给他电话”。 你也许一上午都在给不同的人打电话，但是你“给他” 打电话了吗？


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## SuperXW

BJren said:


> “你上午给他打没打电话”， 突出重点是“打电话”， 你也许给他发电子邮件了，也许手机给他发短信了，但是你打没打电话呢？
> 
> “你上午给没给他打电话”， 突出重点是“给他电话”。 你也许一上午都在给不同的人打电话，但是你“给他” 打电话了吗？


理論上說是這樣。不過人們日常說話時經常不假思索，兩種混用。


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## BJren

SuperXW said:


> 理論上說是這樣。不過人們日常說話時經常不假思索，兩種混用。




,说得正确。如果是我，一般会说 ” 你上午给他打电话了吗？”。


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## crystal941

Actually, "你上午给他打没打电话？" is weird but acceptable. You'd better say "你上午打没打电话给他？".

"你上午给没给他打电话？" is also correct.

To sum up, the "verb not verb" structure is used for the *first verb *in the sentence.


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## SI SON

I am Chinese....I am good at writing chinese essay.

你上午给他打了电话。 >>>>>  你上午有沒有打电話給他? 

给他打没打电话？  ( It is wrong sentence)

给没给他打电话？ (This sentence means: Do you let him to call someone?)

If you have more problems about learning Chinese, welcome.


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## YangMuye

SI SON said:


> 给没给他打电话？ (This sentence means: Do you let him to call someone?)



It reminds me of a paper I read before.
李宇明, 陈前瑞(2005) 北京话“给”字被动句的地位及其历史发展, 方言, 4



> 蒋绍愚（2002）指出，“给”从表示“给与”到表示“被动”是这样一种发展：“给1”（给予）→*“给2”（让、叫）*→“给3”（被）①。
> 
> 木村英树（2005）认为，上述发展路径应是*广东话类型的发展路径*，而北京话类型以“给予”义为起点的被动发展路径应是：给予→受益→被动。
> 
> “给”义动词的*使役用法，南方方言多见而北京话少见*②，语法化不大可能发生在一种不常见的用法上。


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## stellari

SI SON said:


> I am Chinese....I am good at writing chinese essay.
> 
> 给没给他打电话？ (This sentence means: Do you let him to call someone?)



It wasn't until I went to Southern China for college did I learn that some people would interpret 给 this way. As a northerner myself, I can see the rationale behind your explanation, but I for one would never understand the sentence as so.


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## 潇湘夜雨

As a native Chinese speaker, in this context I would say ‘你上午给没给他打电话？’ or ‘你上午有没有给他打电话？’, but I won't say '你上午给他打没打电话？'.


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## SI SON

stellari said:


> It wasn't until I went to Southern China for college did I learn that some people would interpret 给 this way. As a northerner myself, I can see the rationale behind your explanation, but I for one would never understand the sentence as so.


 或許我表達不夠清晰。嚴格上來講，「給沒給他打電話？」是一個語病：語意不清。
 (1) 你允不允許他打電話？
 (2) 你有沒有打電話給他？
 中文應儘量避免語意不清的情況，特別在寫作的時候。
 這種表達方式多半來自於藍青官話 (即：夾雜地方方言或土音的普通話)


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## SuperXW

SI SON said:


> 或許我表達不夠清晰。嚴格上來講，「給沒給他打電話？」是一個語病：語意不清。
> (1) 你允不允許他打電話？
> (2) 你有沒有打電話給他？
> 中文應儘量避免語意不清的情況，特別在寫作的時候。
> 這種表達方式多半來自於藍青官話 (即：夾雜地方方言或土音的普通話)


在不同語境下確實可能造成歧義，但由於目前中國官方語言以北京話為基礎，而北京話包含「給沒給」的說法，所以就不能算是「語病」了。我會當兩種理解「都對」，句子有「歧義」，但無「語病」。
很多字本身就有多個意思，比如「給」，有to，也有let，總不能說這個字本身就犯了「語意不清」的錯誤吧？


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## YangMuye

有歧义 ≠ 有语病 吧。
各个地方表达的习惯不同。我猜在北方，大部分人在这句话里不会把“给”理解成“让”的。


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## SuperXW

SI SON said:


> 你上午给他打了电话。 >>>>>  你上午有沒有打电話給他?
> 
> 给他打没打电话？  ( It is wrong sentence)
> 给没给他打电话？ (This sentence means: Do you let him to call someone?)


The two sentences are all idiomatic and "correct", although they are not in a formal/written style.
I think your standard of "correctness" should be called "formal/written Chinese", which doesn't include the idiomatic expressions based on Beijing dialect, which are currently adopted as "standard Putonghua" by the PRC government.


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## SI SON

嗯, 我的確是建基在寫作的層面上來分析句子的對錯。
 現代口語傳承自明清官話(先秦雅言>中古、近古通語>明清官話) , 書面語則直接傳承自明清古白話(請參考:明清小說)
 書面語是全國通行的 (不應有南北分異)，忌夾雜方言口語。 (小說除外)
 所以，我是以書寫的層面來判斷，至於口語的層面的是否正確，留待來自北京的朋友們討論。
 我記得，在我中學的時候，歧義被老師歸納進語病的部份，所以我才說有語病。我會再去求證。謝謝朋友們的指正。


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## Skatinginbc

stelingo said:


> I have to change statements into questions by using the *verb not verb* structure...你上午给没给他打电话？


I do not consider 给 a verb in 给他打电话, and so I don't know if 给没给 could fulfill the requirement of "verb not verb".  The only idiomatic way for me to form a "verb + 没 + verb" structure in this case is 你上午有没有给他打电话.
给他打没打电话 is not idiomatic in my dialect.  打没打电话给他, however, is.  The "verb not verb" structure has to be close to the subject.   
给 (like 向 and 對) is a preposition in my mind, and "preposition + 不 + preposition" is possible, for instance, 向不向父母摊牌, 對不對國家盡忠.   Also possible is "preposition + 没 + preposition", for instance, 向没向他借钱, 對没對他说真话.  Therefore, 给没给他打电话 is grammatically correct.


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## YangMuye

Skatinginbc said:


> I do not consider 给 a verb in 给他打电话, and so I don't know if 给没给 could fulfill the *requirement of "verb not verb"*.  The only idiomatic way for me to form a "verb not verb" structure in this case is 你上午有没有给他打电话.


Um? Do you say “你让不让/叫不叫/要不要人活”, “被不被人看好”? I don't say 使不使, though, but I say 是否使, which fits better in writing.

Sometimes I feel really hard to tell whether a word is a preposition or a verb. e.g. 用笔写字，买书给他. 我 大声 *叫*弟弟 *去*书店 *帮*我 买支笔 *给*我 写字。


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## Skatinginbc

YangMuye said:


> Um? Do you say “你让不让/叫不叫/要不要人活”?


Yes, but they are 使役動詞. 给 can also function as 使役動詞 meaning "let".  In that case, 给没给他打电话 means "let him make a phone call or not".


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## stellari

SI SON said:


> 或許我表達不夠清晰。嚴格上來講，「給沒給他打電話？」是一個語病：語意不清。
> (1) 你允不允許他打電話？
> (2) 你有沒有打電話給他？
> 中文應儘量避免語意不清的情況，特別在寫作的時候。
> 這種表達方式多半來自於藍青官話 (即：夾雜地方方言或土音的普通話)



No you were perfectly clear and I totally understand what you mean and can see that your argument is well-grounded. However, for Northerners like me, 给 in the sense of 'to let' is used in a much more limited manner than it might be in the south. Therefore, in the context of making a phone call, even without any further information, the phrase 

给没给他打电话？

will VERY RARELY, if ever, be understood as ''to let him make a phone call". It is much, much (at least 100 times) more common to say '让没让他打电话' or use '允许' in a more literal situation. 

Thus, from my point of view, there is no ambiguity in this sentence since one of the interpretations ''to let him make a phone call" does not even stand for Northerners (as was also pointed out in a few other replies). Had I never been exposed to speakers of Southern dialects, I wouldn't have even known such an interpretation exists. 

PS: Now this reminds me of the different usages of 米 and 饭, which got me into a lot of confusions when I first came to the south.


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## SI SON

HaHa, I also learned more about Northerners.
Now, we can see that there are some difference between Northerner and Southerner. Just like BE and AE.


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## Skatinginbc

I have a question for those who consider both "你給沒給他打電話" and "你給他打沒打電話" correct sentences: Is "你打電話給沒給他 also correct in your dialect? 
By the way, both "你打電話給沒給他" and "你給他打沒打電話" are wrong in my dialect.


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## YangMuye

Skatinginbc said:


> By the way, both "你打電話給沒給他" and "你給他打沒打電話" are wrong in my dialect.


They sound wrong to my ears.


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## stellari

Skatinginbc said:


> I have a question for those who consider both "你給沒給他打電話" and "你給他打沒打電話" correct sentences: Is "你打電話給沒給他 also correct in your dialect?
> By the way, both "你打電話給沒給他" and "你給他打沒打電話" are wrong in my dialect.



In colloquial usage, I find it really hard to simply label something as 'correct' or 'incorrect'. For instance, I don't see 你給他打沒打電話 as good usage, however I still use it colloquially sometimes simply to emphasize 打, and it definitely feels much 'more correct' than 你打電話給沒給他, which adds no more emphasis than '你給沒給他打電話' but the words are arranged in a very inappropriate order. On a scale of 'colloquial acceptability' ranging from 0 -10, with 0 being totally unacceptable/incomprehensible, and 10 being the most natural/idiomatic expression. 你給沒給他打電話 stands at around 9, 你給他打沒打電話 may be somewhere near 6-7. 你打電話給沒給他 sounds like 2-3 at most.  I don't think I have heard anyone use the last expression.


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