# Icelandic : use of 'sést'



## Hspo

Good morning. 
Could someone please explain why:
_Fólk drekkur sólarkaffi = Það er drukkið sólarkaffi.
Félagið gaf út sumarblað handa börnum = Það var  gefið út sumarblað handa börnum._
BUT:
_Við sjáum sólina = Það  sést til sólar._ (not_ séð )._
 I thought the passive form was 'vera + Lýsingarháttur þátíðar' but 'sést' is the *Sagnbót midmynd *form of 'sjá'.
Is this an exception to the regular rule? Or is it a different form of 'sjá'? ( I know this is an impersonal or reflexive form of the verb.)
Thank you for any help.


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## Roman A.

Hspo said:


> Það var  gefið út sumarblað handa börnum.



By the way, if we say simply, without expletive _Það,_ *sumarblað var gefið út handa börnum, *would it sound normal?



Hspo said:


> Það  sést til sólar



Impersonal construction, my dictionary gives an example *(Það) sér til sólar *with the same meaning



Hspo said:


> I thought the passive form was 'vera + Lýsingarháttur þátíðar



Maybe *sól er séð *would be an analogical passive construction?


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## Roman A.

Hspo said:


> Or is it a different form of 'sjá'?



It is a different form, reflexive.
For example:
*hann klæddi sig *(he clothed himself)
*hann klæddist* (he clothed himself)
*hann er klæddur *(he is clothed)


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## Hspo

Takk fyrir Roman A.
This was an exercise in Icelandic Online so it was just a test to fill in the missing word (in red). 
We had seen the passive with _vera _and I managed to complete the task except for "Það sést til sólar" which I didn't expect. 

This passive with 'það' is to me a little awkward, I think "*sumarblað var gefið út handa börnum"  *is easier. Am I right?

I know about the reflexive forms and recognise them well. (I use the reflexive all the time in French, my second language).

I'm beginning to understand Icelandic moderately well but still feel incapable of holding a conversation. I have trouble coping with the grammar, (declensions and conjugation), as there is so much to learn, but I'm enjoying the challenge and grateful for your help.


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## Segorian

Hspo said:


> Or is it a different form of 'sjá'?


Yes. The confusion stems from the fact that _sést_ in this sentence is the present indicative singular, not the ‘sagnbót’. This verb happens to be conjugated in a way that makes these two reflexive forms identical (the indicative being a contraction of _sér-st_ and the sagnbót a contraction of _séð-st_), which is unusual, I guess.



Roman A. said:


> By the way, if we say simply, without expletive _Það,_ *sumarblað var gefið út handa börnum, *would it sound normal?


Yes, that is a normal construction. The one with _Það_ is more colloquial.



Roman A. said:


> Impersonal construction, my dictionary gives an example *(Það) sér til sólar *with the same meaning


That is correct. Both are used.



Roman A. said:


> Maybe *sól er séð *would be an analogical passive construction?


Yes. This construction is correct, but is hardly ever used. The use of the past participle _séður_ is mostly limited to a range of special constructions and meanings, the reflexive forms being used instead to convey passive meanings. Examples of these special constructions and meanings include _vera vel/illa séður_ (‘to be well regarded/frowned upon’) and _séður_ used as adjective (‘cunning, clever’).


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## Hspo

Thank you Segorian.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, I said :


Hspo said:


> I thought the passive form was 'vera + Lýsingarháttur þátíðar' but 'sést' is the *Sagnbót midmynd *form of 'sjá'.


 You mention the ‘sagnbót'. This is the supine I believe? Is the ' ‘sagnbót germynd  used for the 'perfect' tense with 'hafa'?

I'm still not sure about the use of the 'sagnbót miðmynd' in comparison to 'Ópersónuleg notkun - Miðmynd'. t.d. að tala = talast, talaðist and 'sagnbót miðmynd' of að tala is 'talast'.

Thank you again.


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## Segorian

Hspo said:


> You mention the ‘sagnbót'. This is the supine I believe? Is the ' ‘sagnbót germynd used for the 'perfect' tense with 'hafa'?


This is probably a source of confusion for many people. The ‘supine’ or ‘sagnbót’ in Icelandic is no other than the neuter singular of the past participle, when used in certain compound verb forms. To understand why the term ‘supine’ is used, it helps to remember that the Latin supine (although different in function from the _sagnbót_) is likewise identical in form with the neuter singular of the past participle. _Sagnbót_ is an unnecessary term in Icelandic, however. It obscures the fact that we are essentially dealing with the past participle, and thus makes learning this part of Icelandic grammar too complicated. (This is somewhat unlike the situation in Swedish, where the _supinum_ is also derived from the past participle but has developed a form of its own (albeit one only slightly different from the p.p.).)

The past participle is used in this fashion with only a handful of auxiliaries, principally _hafa_ and _geta_, but also _fá_ (when used in the meaning ‘be able to’):

_hafa *skilið*
geta *skilið*
fá _*skilið* (like the previous, ‘be able to understand’)​
Since you know French, it is worth pointing out a parallel with that language, namely that in some constructions, the past participle is invariable (_Ce matin, j'ai *pris* une photo de la Tour Eiffel_) while in others it agrees with the noun (or other) to which it refers (_La photo de la Tour Eiffel que j'ai *prise* ce matin_).

Another thread also explaining the _sagnbót_ is found here.


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## Hspo

Segorian said:


> This is probably a source of confusion for many people. The ‘supine’ or ‘sagnbót’ in Icelandic is no other than the neuter singular of the past participle, when used in certain compound verb forms. To understand why the term ‘supine’ is used, it helps to remember that the Latin supine (although different in function from the _sagnbót_) is likewise identical in form with the neuter singular of the past participle. _Sagnbót_ is an unnecessary term in Icelandic, however. It obscures the fact that we are essentially dealing with the past participle, and thus makes learning this part of Icelandic grammar too complicated. (This is somewhat unlike the situation in Swedish, where the _supinum_ is also derived from the past participle but has developed a form of its own (albeit one only slightly different from the p.p.).)
> 
> The past participle is used in this fashion with only a handful of auxiliaries, principally _hafa_ and _geta_, but also _fá_ (when used in the meaning ‘be able to’):
> 
> _hafa *skilið*
> geta *skilið*
> fá _*skilið* (like the previous, ‘be able to understand’)​
> Since you know French, it is worth pointing out a parallel with that language, namely that in some constructions, the past participle is invariable (_Ce matin, j'ai *pris* une photo de la Tour Eiffel_) while in others it agrees with the noun (or other) to which it refers (_La photo de la Tour Eiffel que j'ai *prise* ce matin_).
> 
> Another thread also explaining the _sagnbót_ is found here.



Thank you so much for this! It's the best explanation I have ever seen along with the thread above. I finally see the light!


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## Segorian

Hspo said:


> I'm still not sure about the use of the 'sagnbót miðmynd' in comparison to 'Ópersónuleg notkun - Miðmynd'. t.d. að tala = talast, talaðist and 'sagnbót miðmynd' of að tala is 'talast'.


The problem here is simply that the two forms are identical in this particular case (as in some others). Always try to compare the middle with the active voice:

Active:

present: _Stúlkurnar *tala* saman_; perfect: _Stúlkurnar hafa *talað* saman_​
Middle (reflexive/reciprocal):

present: _Stúlkurnar _*talast*_ við_; perfect: _Stúlkurnar hafa *talast* við_​
Depending on the conjugation of the verb, these two middle voice forms are either identical or distinct. An example of the latter is _fá_:

present: _Margir Íslendingar _*fást*_ við fiskveiðar_; perfect: _Margir Íslendingar hafa *fengist* við fiskveiðar_​
In fact, the two forms are always distinct “behind the scenes”. Grossly simplified, the modern form of the ‘sagnbót miðmyndar’ of _tala_ is the result of the following changes:

_talað-sk_ (for _sik_ = _sig_, ‘oneself’)  ->  _talað-st_  ->  _talaðst_ (the official spelling until 1974 was _talazt_)  ->  _talast_​


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## Hspo

Thank you again Segorian for a very complete explanation. This a great help!


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