# Please don't ignore the original poster's attempt



## mochilero

Often someone will post a question on how to translate a particular word or phrase and will, as the forum rules dictate, give their own attempt, then several replies follow each of which gives the author's own take on the translation but *with no comment on the original poster's attempt*.

I imagine that this often leaves the original poster in the dark about whether his own attempt was correct, partially correct, or completely wrong. And not only the original poster but also those of us studying the same language who might also wonder about the validity of the original poster's attempt, as has happened to me on several occasions.

I wonder if it would be possible to amend the forum rules to ameliorate this state of affairs. I'd be interested in the opinion of other forum members on this subject.


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## swift

Hello Mochilero.

I totally share your concern. It would be better for the original poster to know why his attempt is (or is not) correct, since that way he will be reassured about his command of the target language. Should his translation be incorrect, a thoughtful comment  might be helpful to improve his language skills and to avoid similar mistakes in the future...

Thanks for opening this thread.

Regards,


swift


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## Miguelillo 87

Well I have seen several times in the forum that we are doing that, also in Sólo Español forum, when people ask if his options are ok, we do it, and even if he or she is not asking to, sometimes you see people correct their posts.

Or are you talking about another thing?


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## mochilero

Yes, I know people are doing it, but not all of the time. If we're going to insist that people attempt to translate their word/phrase before we help them, it doesn't seem fair on them if we simply ignore their efforts. And it doesn't help other people reading the thread if they don't know whether the translation is good, or bad, or simply not the way most native speakers would say it.

But thanks to you and to swift for your input.


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## Mauricet

This thread is a good reminder of what we all should consider doing when answering. Unfortunately the thread will soon disappear and be unseen by newcomers. I guess it would be a good idea to add a rule that would *advise, not require*, to explain why the original poster's attempt is considered correct or not. Just as we are warned that saying  hello and thanks (which I rarely do ...) is welcome.


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## kenny4528

I share your comment and sometimes I just need to ask again: Is my original sentence correct?

But I think the Forum Colleagues didn't mean to ignore it, just a little mindless about it.


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## Mate

Hello,

The rules do not say that in every case the poster "has to give his own attempt first." An attempt is required only if the poster is asking specifically for homework help (Rule 5). 

Many times members just know how to express the OP idea in their own language, but are unable to explain why. This may be due to the fact that not everybody knows enough grammar, syntax or correct punctuation; not even in their own native tongue.

The Spanish-English forums have a specific sub-forum --Grammar-- where you may find explanations about what is right and/or wrong in your original take. And also why 

Cheers!


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## Mauricet

Mateamargo said:


> The rules do not say that in every case the poster "has to give his own attempt first." An attempt is required only if the poster is asking specifically for homework help (Rule 5).


If this is the meaning of rule #5, then rule #5 violates rule #3 (be clear) because almost everybody understands an attempt is required in every case of translation request, not just homework.


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## swift

Bonjour Mauricet,


Mauricet said:


> If this is the meaning of rule #5, then rule #5 violates rule #3 (be clear) because almost everybody understands an attempt is required in every case of translation request, not just homework.


Or maybe there are specific rules in some  forums. Take a look at the rule number 3 of the French-Spanish forum:


> • Toda petición de ayuda a la traducción debe ser acompañada de un intento previo de traducción propia que aparecerá en el mensaje de pregunta, junto con el contexto y la frase original entera.


Any request of help must contain an attempt at the translation in addition to the context and the original full sentence.

Regards,


swift


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## Mate

Dear Mauricet, 

By referring to rule #5 I'm speaking about this:


> _*5. No proofreading or homework.*_
> _These forums do not provide free schoolwork, translations, or revisions of texts. Longer texts are accepted in order to answer a specific grammar or vocabulary question… and only if you post your own translation/interpretation first. _


If you follow the link, and scroll down a bit, you get here:


> These forums are neither a proofreading nor a free translation service. Each thread must deal with a question about a word, a phrase or a specific subject about language usage (which you should put or succinctly identify in the title of the thread) and, therefore, any translation, correction or proofreading must be done in a way which does not go against the principles explained below:* No proofreading requests*
> ​     You should not ask members to examine and correct your text, but only to help you with _*your question about a word, a phrase or a specific subject about language usage*_.
> ​ For those responding to a question: please address the specific question of the thread in your post. You may add to it brief general comments about grammar, syntax, style, punctuation and other defects in the thread starter's text, or indicate the thread where these issues have been dealt with._*You should not correct or re-write the entire text in any case.*_ ​* First attempt
> *​* Long translation requests*: if you want help with a translation of a text longer than the word or phrase in the title, you are required to show us your first attempt at a translation first.​* Short translation requests*: in these cases, while not strictly          necessary, you’re strongly encouraged to show us your first first attempt or, at least, to say that you have no idea.


This announcement is meant to be an explanation of rule #5 (underlined and coloured to enhance the relevant parts).

As previously suggested by swift, the rules of each particular forum may differ. 

I was referring to the General Rules of WRF.

Regards.


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## mochilero

If people requesting translations are encouraged to show their first attempt, perhaps people replying might be encouraged to at least comment on the correctness or incorrectness of the poster's attempt.


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## cuchuflete

Mauricet said:


> If this is the meaning of rule #5, then rule #5 violates rule #3 (be clear) because almost everybody understands an attempt is required in every case of translation request, not just homework.



Perhaps not everybody, but a great many people _*misunderstand*_* and assume* that a translation attempt is required for every translation request.  That is only the case for homework.  As has been discussed in this Comments & Suggestions forum many times before, there are circumstances in which the thread starter has no knowledge whatsoever of the target language, and short of using a machine translator is absolutely unable to provide a first attempt at a translation.  As an example, a relative may wish to send birthday greetings to a child with a parent who speaks a different language.  

The general forum rules require a first attempt for schoolwork.  Individual forum guidelines may request such an attempt otherwise.


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## Mauricet

Sorry to insist loudly, but rule #5 as it is displays no link to a thread of the Spanish-English vocabulary forum. When reading it we are left with

*No proofreading or homework.*_ These forums do not provide free schoolwork, translations, or revisions of texts. Longer texts are accepted in order to answer a specific grammar or vocabulary question ... and only if you post your translation/interpretation first_.

This may be why so many people (including me, up to now) have misunderstood the rule. "Longer texts" could be for homework or not, right ? Moreover, the French translation given in one of the attached threads of the French-English vocabulary forum splits the sentence _Longer texts ..._ into two sentences, the last of which seeming to have a wider range than just "longer texts". 

So, if mochilero's suggestion could be retained, I think it would be useful to rephrase rule #5 to make it clear that "posting your attempt at translation first" is encouraged in all cases, and required for schoolwork and for longer texts; while answerers are encouraged to "not forget the original poster's attempt".


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## Nanon

Thank you, Mauricet, for your conclusion. I was afraid we were drifting too much away from the original question, which is whether and how we should thoughtfully comment on the original poster's attempt, and whether this should be added to the rules, or not.

On a first thought, I was not certain that I would second a proposal to add this as a _rule. _But I must say that sometimes, we do not keep in mind that asking or opening a thread does not imply that the first attempt at translation always require an improvement. Same as for the fact of not being a native speaker: some first attempts are good, some responses given by non-natives are good, some responses given by natives are inaccurate. There is no absolute rule in this respect.

I admit I sometimes forget to say "Your proposal is excellent, but you can also say..." or "Basically this is the right meaning, but you may consider conjugating the verb" before suggesting or correcting. And I do believe in the pedagogical value of working on mistakes: this is why I am not too keen on suggesting corrections via PM. However, being nice and adding (sometimes) a smiley can help a lot.

So, on a second thought... maybe not a rule, but it is good to have a reminder here. Yes, answerers should always consider, answer to, come back to... the original poster's first attempt. And if self-discipline is not enough, maybe we will need a rule.


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## Ynez

In general, if people don't tell you that it is right, it means that it is wrong. If you are not sure, you could always ask.


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## Mauricet

But many attempts (by the thread starter) are not simply "right" or "wrong", but somewhere in between: maybe a little clumsy, not very colloquial, or with minor inaccuracies. Some feedback is needed then; not only for the original poster him/herself but for future readers as well.


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## Ynez

Mauricet, I think communication in this forum is far from perfect. You might even get a totally wrong answer. So the best we personally can do is to go on asking about every little detail until we are sure that is the best answer (or until we understand the topic completely).


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## Södertjej

cuchuflete said:


> there are circumstances in which the thread starter has no knowledge whatsoever of the target language, and short of using a machine translator is absolutely unable to provide a first attempt at a translation.  As an example, a relative may wish to send birthday greetings to a child with a parent who speaks a different language.


I understand that but considering this:


> These forums are neither a proofreading *nor a free translation service*.


how acceptable are those kind of requests? In the Scandinavian forum we often find requests to translate some sentences into one of the Scandinavian languages because one guy has met a Norwegian/Danish/Swedish/Icelandic girl he wants to impress on their next date or by sending her an email.

Sometimes people get a message in a Scandinavian language and I understand they want to know what's that odd sms they got on their phones or whatever, but helping people to impress a girl when they are not interested in ever learning the language is something I find very similar to being a free translation service.

Sorry i I got a bit off-topic!


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## cuchuflete

The current rules state:



> *No proofreading or homework.
> These forums do not provide free *schoolwork,* translations,* or revisions of  texts.



Please note that this is not a global statement.  It appears in the section that addresses proofreading and homework. 

If you don't wish to assist the amorous advances of those who live by text messages, you are free to ignore such threads. I find such threads annoying, so I don't reply to them.


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