# I/me (disjunctive pronoun): Who attended? <I, Me, My parents> and <I, me, my parents>.



## Robocop

Disjunctive pronouns seem to be a controversial issue in English.
Look at this example: 
Who attended the meeting with the headmaster?
(a) My parents and I!
(b) My parents and me! 
(c) I and my parents! 
(d) Me and my parents!
Which answer(s) is (are) correct?
According to a Wikipedia article, "modern speakers" would generally use "me" whereas language purists would insist on "I".
Thanks for any useful guidance on this topic.


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## tepatria

If I were starting the conversation, I would say "My parents and I met with the headmaster". If I were answering the question I might use either "Me and my parents" or "My parents and I" depending on how formal I want to be. Usually you put yourself last in the list, so (a) is the correct usage. (b) and (d) are banes on a teacher's existence, but widely used.


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## Alxmrphi

I always say "Me an <subject>", and I don't think I would ever say otherwise, I don't think I've ever said "<subject> and I" in a serious way, ever in my entire life.
I know a lot of people are going to mooaaan and moooaaan about how it's correct to use it, it's just been such a long time for many people not saying it, it feels wrong to change.


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## Robocop

@tepatria: thanks.
I presume that in your second sentence you wanted to write "... I might use either "My parents and me" (instead of "Me and my parents"!) or "My parents and I" ..." because otherwise you would contradict your statements in the two sentences at the end.


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## mally pense

To me, (c) is the only one which strikes me as incorrect in the sense that no-one (I assume) would ever use it. The other three are all possibilities, depending, as others have said, on the degree of formality amongst other things.

In terms of the purist argument, it seems odd to me that 'I' should be considered more correct because if you break down the reply into its elements you only have the following as possibilities:

Who attended the meeting with the headmaster?
(i) My parents
(ii) Me

"I" would not be an option (unless expanded to "I did").

Anyway, I'm sure there are purist arguments I'm not aware of, but perhaps looking at the response in that way would at least avoid the danger of coming up with the incorrect option (c).


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## GreenWhiteBlue

mally pense said:


> In terms of the purist argument, it seems odd to me that 'I' should be considered more correct because if you break down the reply into its elements you only have the following as possibilities:
> 
> Who attended the meeting with the headmaster?
> (i) My parents
> (ii) Me
> 
> "I" would not be an option (unless expanded to "I did").


 
Actually, when one breaks the question down to its elements, "I" is definitely an option, while "me" seems absurd:

*Who* attended the meeting with the headmaster?
_*My parents* [attended the meeting with the headmaster]._ (Yes, that sounds fine.)
_*Me* [attended the meeting with the headmaster]._ ("Me attended"?  Unless one is doing a bad imitation of an old Tarzan movie, this sounds very odd, and is unacceptable.)
*I* [_attended the meeting with the headmaster]_.  (No problem there at all...)


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## mally pense

Just another little (or not so little) UK/USA difference I think


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## anhonestfool

I'm with Mally, and I speak American English.  I'm going to assume that what you're asking is what the common usage would be.  Most people speaking to each other in an informal situation would use the "me" form.  
Yes, of course it sounds ridiculous if you say "me attended".  Nobody says that.  
Using the "me" form may not be proper English, but it's common English.  Language changes all the time, so that the lines between what's right and wrong become blurred.


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## GreenWhiteBlue

The lines have not "blurred" so far that, when one "breaks down the reply into its elements" (as I did), it is in any way clear that "'I' would not be an option", let alone an "incorrect option".  

"Me" may be common, and tolerated without a qualm by some, but that in no way makes the grammatically correct choice either unavailable or "incorrect" for those who use it.


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## mally pense

I think the interpretation of the grammar of the reply is what is at question here, and obviously subject to UK/US differences. In the UK grammar, an object (albeit human) is obviously acceptable as a reply. According to your explanation of the US grammar, it seems to be an implied sentence that is expected as the reply even if only the actual subject part of that implied sentence is given in the reply.

Yes "Me attended" is absurd and obviously incorrect if used in a sentence, but that's not what's happening in the UK English. It's just the one word on its own - no actual or implied sentence at all. That's why I said specifically that replying with a sentence ("I did") would make a difference. (And of course, "Me did" *would be absurd).

Obviously with your explanation of the US grammar, "I" does become a valid option, and I stand corrected, but not to the degree of accepting that "Me" is an absurd or unacceptable option. Clearly it isn't, not in the UK at least.


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## GreenWhiteBlue

mally pense said:


> Obviously with your explanation of the US grammar, "I" does become a valid option, and I stand corrected, but not to the degree of accepting that "Me" is an absurd or unacceptable option. Clearly it isn't, not in the UK at least.


 
My explanation is not merely of US grammar.  "I" is just as grammatically correct in the UK as it is in the US.  It is certainly not "incorrect" in the UK to say "I and my parents attended".


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## mally pense

> It is certainly not "incorrect" in the UK to say "I and my parents attended".


 
Very true, and I obviously wasn't trying to disagree with you on that, except that if you look at the actual replies in the original example, the word "attended" is missing. It is implied in your grammar, and I would conjecture, not in mine. I think there is possibly a historical usage in which "I" would be accepted, and for some reason I have an image of Captain Bligh at his court martial answering a question "Who gave the order?" "I, Sir", but in current use, I think it would sound odd, to my ears at least.

If I haven't explained myself well enough (and I have to admit it is a little convoluted and I'm not necessarily using all the correct grammatical terminology), I think I'll leave it there. There's nothing I can really add, and I don't think there's any particular need to reach a definitive agreement - even if such a thing were possible.

Mally


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## dobes

I totally agree with GreenWhiteBlue. Bad grammar is always attributed to AE in this forum, and I'm getting upset about that!  "My parents and I" is what I would say now, and what I would have said as a child. I recognize "My parents and me" as in use, but also as ungrammatical.  The others I don't even recognize, and have not heard in use -- everyone I know would put themselves last in the list, whether they used "I" or "me".


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## Thomas Tompion

I hadn't realized this was as difficult as some people make it sound.
What's the matter with the following rules? :-

1. Always say the other person first, out of deference.
2. Always use whichever of *I *or *me* you would use if you were the only person.

The value of the second rule is illustrated by the absurdity of *me attended*. And *I and my parents attended* just sounds ill-mannered.

Who attended? Are you a person who naturally says *I*, or *me*, if it's just you in such a case? The answer to that question determines how you should reply when you are with other people. I would say 'my parents and I', but then my family and I are regarded as over-fussy about how we speak. I wouldn't be shocked by 'my parents and me' used disjunctively, the way I am frequently by things like 'Me and Charlie are going to the football match'. And, or course, I'd say *the headmaster saw my parents and me.*


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## mally pense

dobes said:


> I totally agree with GreenWhiteBlue. Bad grammar is always attributed to AE in this forum, and I'm getting upset about that! "My parents and I" is what I would say now, and what I would have said as a child. I recognize "My parents and me" as in use, but also as ungrammatical. The others I don't even recognize, and have not heard in use -- everyone I know would put themselves last in the list, whether they used "I" or "me".


 
Who attributed bad grammar to American English? Certainly not me - my own observations were coming from a background of UK English, something I would hope would be reasonably clear from my avatar and profile info.

I don't think there's any need for anyone to get upset over this type of discussion. I'm certainly not upset that my own habitual/shared usage is being dismissed as grammatically incorrect.

In practice, I think there needs to be at least a sensitivity that what's considered normal in one part of the world or one section of society is not necessarily going to sound right in another.


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## anhonestfool

Yes,
I have to say that people seem to be getting a bit unneccesarily heated about this topic.  There surely isn't any need to throw out snippy comments.  
Clearly there are some here that are absolute purists when it comes to how the English language should be used.  I believe that that's okay.
And then there are those of us, like myself, who very much appreciate the informal language, even when it is not rigidly adhering to the rules.
I find that the common language of people is often more warm and fun, and that's why I like it.
Eventually, I believe, common usage becomes proper usage.  It is interesting to watch it change.
Let's all get along despite our differences.


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## GreenWhiteBlue

mally pense said:


> I'm certainly not upset that my own habitual/shared usage is being dismissed as grammatically incorrect.


 
Considering that you dismissed the gramatically correct use of _I_ as "not an option" (your words) and "incorrect" (your term), I agree that it would be unreasonable to be upset if anyone else should do much the same to your usage.


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## mally pense

Oh dear, do I have to repeat myself:



> "Obviously with your explanation of the US grammar, "I" does become a valid option, and *I stand corrected*".


 
Really though, looking at my original post, I don't see how I could have gone out of my way to make it more obvious that my opinion was qualified, personal and guarded, and as I've said, the UK context couldn't have be any clearer from my profile info and avatar. Just look at some of the language in my original post: "To me", "strikes me as", "(I assume)", "it seems odd to me", "should be considered", "possibilities", "unless", "arguments I'm not aware of", "perhaps". Not exactly laying the law down, and not universal in scope. Yes, I'm happy to admit looking back at my post that my final sentence was missing "what is possibly an" or similar, but given the qualifiers in the lead up to that last clause, was that really such an oversight?

I can only echo *anhonestfool*'s sentiments: Let's all get along despite our differences.

Mally


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## JamesM

I'd go with "my parents and I", but I have to admit that I might say, "my parents and me" in a casual conversation when I was thinking about what I was saying. It's so common to hear that nowadays.

I'm curious, though, if those would think "me" works also extend it to other conjugations. Would it also sound ok to those who use "me" to say:

Who attended the meeting?

Their parents and them/Them and their parents
His parents and him/Him and his parents
Her parents and her/Her and her parents


Or does it work primarily with the first person singular: me.


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## mally pense

"Him and his parents" sounds perfectly OK to me (personally, Cheshire UK and all that), and is what I'd use if the occasion arose. (Probably pronounced - by me - something like "Him an'is parents" in real life).


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## Outsider

Is there really an appreciable difference between AE and BE in this respect? That wasn't my impression.


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## mally pense

I think the evidence of the previous page tends to suggest that the difference is not only appreciable but also something which people feel strongly about.


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## Outsider

I disagree. Here's what I think happened in this thread: the two most vocal posters happened to be a traditionalist American and a (for the lack of a better term) non-traditionalist English person. This gave the impression that there's a divide between AE and BE in the population at large, but I don't know if those two posters are representative of the general situation. I have some doubts that they are.


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## mally pense

Well it would certainly be interesting to see. I'm happy to take a back seat and see what other people's experience of this is, and I can only apologise for hogging the discussion, but there's not really been a point until now that I've felt able to break off.


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## anhonestfool

Is there really an appreciable difference between AE and BE in this respect? That wasn't my impression.

I really don't believe that there is.  
I think the difference is that some people think that language should be spoken absolutely properly, and some don't.  Another possibility to consider is regional differences in the U.S.


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## GreenWhiteBlue

There is no difference at all between BE and AE in this respect. In both BE and AE, "My parents and I" would be the grammatically correct response, while "My parents and me" would be commonly said in casual conversation. My objection is to the repeated contention that "I" is grammatically correct in the US, but in the UK there is some different "grammar" in effect which makes "I" incorrect and "me" the grammatically preferred choice. 

The idea that there is a grammatical difference found on the different sides of the Atlantic Ocean is false. The structural grammar in both countries is, in fact, the same. In both countries, the understood verb is "attended", and so if one analyzes the structure of the sentence, the grammatical requirement is that the nominative be used. As it so happens, in both countries it is common to hear "me" used instead -- but there is no foundation whatsoever to any claim that "me", whicle technically ungrammatical in the US, is to be preferred by special rules of English grammar that are in effect only in the UK.


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## Loob

Thomas Tompion said:


> What's the matter with the following rules? :-
> 
> 1. Always say the other person first, out of deference.
> 2. Always use whichever of *I *or *me* you would use if you were the only person.


 
They're great rules, Thomas - I'm just not sure I follow them!

If I went alone to the meeting, then my answer to the question "Who attended the meeting?" would - depending on the formality of the context - be either "me" or "I did". Although I hear and understand the arguments, stand-alone "I" would not, for me, be an option.

If I went with my parents - an unlikely eventuality given that they're no longer alive, but let that pass - then, oddly enough, I would have three options: "me and my parents" (for use in very casual contexts); "my parents and I did"; and "my parents and I". "Me and my parents" breaks your rule 1; and the fact that I have an extra option in this context breaks your rule 2.

Why??? I think it's because it's drummed into us here (or at least it used to be) that the often-heard "me and Fred did X" is 'bad grammar', and that we ought to say "Fred and I" - so much so that people hypercorrect, and use "Fred and I" in grammatical contexts where "Fred and me" is perfectly proper. "[Other person] and I" has in a sense taken on a life of its own...



JamesM said:


> Would it also sound ok to those who use "me" to say:
> 
> Who attended the meeting?
> 
> Their parents and them/Them and their parents
> His parents and him/Him and his parents
> Her parents and her/Her and her parents


 
Again, there's a difference for me between the 'solo' situation and the 'person + parents' situation, though I personally wouldn't use _him, her, them_ in either context:

Who attended the meeting? _he did/ she did/ they did._

Who attended the meeting? _he and his parents/she and her parents/ they and their parents_
Who attended the meeting? _he and his parents did/she and her parents did/ they and their parents did._

Logical? Not at all! Robocop, you got it right in your original post in this thread:



> Disjunctive pronouns seem to be a controversial issue in English.


 
Loob


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## Loob

Robocop said:


> Disjunctive pronouns seem to be a controversial issue in English.
> Look at this example:
> Who attended the meeting with the headmaster?
> (a) My parents and I!
> (b) My parents and me!
> (c) I and my parents!
> (d) Me and my parents!
> Which answer(s) is (are) correct?
> According to a Wikipedia article, "modern speakers" would generally use "me" whereas language purists would insist on "I".
> Thanks for any useful guidance on this topic.


 
Reflecting further on my earlier equivocal input...

Robocop, the always-correct solution would be the one using the verb "did": 

"Who attended the meeting?" "My parents and I did" _(put "I" after the other attendees for politeness' sake)_
"Who attended the meeting?" "You and your parents did".
"Who attended the meeting?" "He and his parents did".
"Who attended the meeting?" "She and her parents did".
"Who attended the meeting?" "We and our parents did"_._
"Who attended the meeting?" "They and their parents did".

If you use "did" in this context, you can't upset anyone!

Loob


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## keepsakes

me denotes object
I denotes subject

I'm pretty sure that's the simplest way to look at it.

So in fact, "my parents and me" or more commonly "me and my parents" are technically wrong, while "my parents and I" is the correct form.

In most informal circumstances, it doesn't matter as much, but when you're talking about something like, a formal reflexive essay, then you must watch out.


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## mally pense

Having already established (in a different discussion) that there is no single 'correct' form of pronunciation, why do we have to have a single 'correct' form of grammar and a 'technically incorrect' form of grammar? I contend that the common usage ("Me" or "Me and my parents" etc) has its own rational grammar, and that that grammar is equally correct regardless of what the "received grammar" is.

In other words, if the "received" (for want of a better term) grammatical theory fails to describe the common usage, then that grammatical theory - for that particular usage - is not the appropriate theory to apply to that usage. Hence my suggested alternative of a different grammar for the "me" forms of response, namely that a single word object or an object phrase is an acceptable response to this type of question. I see no problem in having two or more alternative grammars just as there is no problem in having two or more alternative pronunciations, each of them equally valid in their areas of usage.

If this is complete and utter garbage, please don't worry too much about putting me to rights. I'm quite happy to let it stand as my own little anachronism of how I see the world... and I sincerely hope that it doesn't unintentionally offend anyone. Perhaps I should add that I don't have a clue what a disjunctive pronoun is other than what I've inferred from this discussion. Possibly in my case, ignorance is bliss?


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## dobes

Hi, anhonestfool and mally pense --

One thing I could wish for more of in this forum is a clear division between what people believe is correct AE or BE grammar and what is in use in different English-speaking countries around the world.  To me, when someone says, "Oh, that must be AE" -- and what 'must' be AE is to my AE ears ungrammatical and uneducated-- well, it does upset me. I don't have a problem with an AE-speaker saying, "That's what they say where I live" but I do have a problem when it's labeled AE, as if we all accept it and use it. 

I think a distinction between what is correct grammar and what is in use -- on both sides of the ocean -- would be helpful in avoiding misunderstandings.


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## panjandrum

mally pense said:


> Having already established (in a different discussion) that there is no single 'correct' form of pronunciation, why do we have to have a single 'correct' form of grammar and a 'technically incorrect' form of grammar? I contend that the common usage ("Me" or "Me and my parents" etc) has its own rational grammar, and that that grammar is equally correct regardless of what the "received grammar" is.
> 
> In other words, if the "received" (for want of a better term) grammatical theory fails to describe the common usage, then that grammatical theory - for that particular usage - is not the appropriate theory to apply to that usage. Hence my suggested alternative of a different grammar for the "me" forms of response, namely that a single word object or an object phrase is an acceptable response to this type of question. I see no problem in having two or more alternative grammars just as there is no problem in having two or more alternative pronunciations, each of them equally valid in their areas of usage.
> 
> If this is complete and utter garbage, please don't worry too much about putting me to rights. I'm quite happy to let it stand as my own little anachronism of how I see the world... and I sincerely hope that it doesn't unintentionally offend anyone. Perhaps I should add that I don't have a clue what a disjunctive pronoun is other than what I've inferred from this discussion. Possibly in my case, ignorance is bliss?


mally,
People come to these forums with a range of interests and needs.
Many need to know how to write using English that will be accepted as correct by examiners and employers.
Many need to know how to communicate fluently and effectively in conversation with business and professional colleagues.
Many need to know the most appropriate usage in natural conversation in XXXX wherever XXXX happens to be.

Many are interested in all of these and more.
So it is important that we try to ensure that a reader, finding a thread on a particular topic, is not misled into believing that one of these is the norm for all purposes.  We should all try to be clear which level of communication is the context for our comments.
So, for example, while I support your stand for the naturalness of "Whe went to see the teacher? Me," as being a natural exchange, it is also important to note that this would probably draw criticism in some contexts.

It's not always easy, and it's often a difficult line to keep to, but in the interests of maintaining the ethos of these forums: "The Forums promote learning and maintain an atmosphere that is serious, academic and collaborative, with a respectful, helpful and cordial tone," we all need to try.



dobes said:


> Hi, anhonestfool and mally pense --
> 
> One thing I could wish for more of in this forum is a clear division between what people believe is correct AE or BE grammar and what is in use in different English-speaking countries around the world.  To me, when someone says, "Oh, that must be AE" -- and what 'must' be AE is to my AE ears ungrammatical and uneducated-- well, it does upset me. I don't have a problem with an AE-speaker saying, "That's what they say where I live" but I do have a problem when it's labeled AE, as if we all accept it and use it.
> 
> I think a distinction between what is correct grammar and what is in use -- on both sides of the ocean -- would be helpful in avoiding misunderstandings.


A heartfelt sigh of support for dobes' point.  It  is too easy to label usage that is unfamiliar as an AE/BE difference.  We really should not do that unless there is clear corroboration that the difference is not just two people with different opinions.  I'll quote a forum rule: 
13. Any information, translations and definitions posted in these forums must be accompanied by a reasonable attempt to verify accuracy. Give sources for extensive quotations. If you are unsure of the accuracy of your information or translation, please say so.

One thing that has struck me very forcibly over the past couple of years here is the number of times current AE usage has turned out to be the original English, from which BE has diverged.  It behoves all of us to take care.


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## Forero

Hi, Robocop, and welcome!

I use the French model (with _me_ as disjunctive) in day-to-day conversation and the Latin model (with _I_ as nominative) in careful writing.  They are both common all over the English speaking world, but the Latin model is what is taught in most schools and the French model is what most of us grew up with.

One result of this conflict is that there are now second-generation users of _I_ as a disjunctive and nominative (with _me_ as accusative and dative).  This seems to have started with those who were taught to use _I_ where _me_ would be natural but were not taught the complete Latin model.

If we wanted to be most conservative, we would use the Anglo-Saxon/German model (e.g. That am I).  As far as I know, though, *no* modern native does this.

Anyway, since the French invasion of 1066 and centuries in which all educated Englishmen wrote in Latin and studied grammar from a Latin viewpoint, this conflict has been an inescapable part of our culture.

Good question!


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## anhonestfool

It is too easy to label usage that is unfamiliar as an AE/BE difference.
I don't believe I ever made a statement suggesting that this was the case.  Quite the opposite actually.  See the post in which I replied to this question:
Is there really an appreciable difference between AE and BE in this respect? That wasn't my impression.

I really don't believe that there is. 
I think the difference is that some people think that language should be spoken absolutely properly, and some don't. Another possibility to consider is regional differences in the U.S.

And I don't think that I could have been more clear in my posts saying that my preferences definitely don't reflect proper English usage.  I do realize that there needs to be a distinction made in order to provide the people who visit this forum with the information that they need.


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## mally pense

panjandrum said:


> ...
> ...We should all try to be clear which level of communication is the context for our comments.
> ...
> ...in the interests of maintaining the ethos of these forums: "The Forums promote learning and maintain an atmosphere that is serious, academic and collaborative, with a respectful, helpful and cordial tone," we all need to try...
> ...


 
As panjandrum's reply is addressed to me personally, I think perhaps it is pertinent to clarify that the "all" in the above really does apply to _all_ of us. I assume also that the need to maintain the respectful, helpful and cordial tone of the forum doesn't just apply to me personally either, but I think that is understood. 

Mally


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## Thomas Tompion

mally pense said:


> I assume also that the need to maintain the respectful, helpful and cordial tone of the forum doesn't just apply to me personally either, but I think that is understood.
> 
> Mally


 
Honi soit.


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## Forero

Thomas Tompion said:


> I hadn't realized this was as difficult as some people make it sound.
> What's the matter with the following rules? :-
> 
> 1. Always say the other person first, out of deference.
> 2. Always use whichever of *I *or *me* you would use if you were the only person.
> 
> The value of the second rule is illustrated by the absurdity of *me attended*. And *I and my parents attended* just sounds ill-mannered.
> 
> Who attended? Are you a person who naturally says *I*, or *me*, if it's just you in such a case? The answer to that question determines how you should reply when you are with other people. I would say 'my parents and I', but then my family and I are regarded as over-fussy about how we speak. I wouldn't be shocked by 'my parents and me' used disjunctively, the way I am frequently by things like 'Me and Charlie are going to the football match'. And, or course, I'd say *the headmaster saw my parents and me.*



This describes the Latin model very well (nominative v. dative/accusative).  This is the way "proper" schools teach us to write.  It is also the way my parents taught me, except that they sometimes slipped and used the French model (subjective v. objective v. disjunctive).  Others around me used the French model exclusively when speaking.

I have never heard anyone "slip" into the French model when speaking Spanish, so I think of the two "models" as two traditions that are both operating in English, as I have said.

The best approach to good English, as I see it, is to be as familiar with the Latin model as possible, since it is used for formal writing, but then to recognize that the (modified) French model is excellent for learning French and persists for a reason.

Actually, no one follows French or Latin to a T (e.g. "Fifi and me, we knew each other in high school." or "It was _he_ that found her, after seeking her _I_.").  Maybe that's because of the Parisian French/Anglo-French divide, or maybe it's because _I_ is a little easier to stress than _j'_.


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## Robocop

I was warned that the topic is controversial, and it is indeed!
My principal concern was the disjunctive form, which has the *pronoun standing alone* or *with a copula only*. This got a bit out of the focus in some posts.
As a native German speaker, I know very well the flexion of the noun and pronoun as well as the disjunctive construction with a *nominative* pronoun. Therefore, on the one hand I am prepared to think that English disjunctive expressions with the nominative pronoun (I, you, he/her, we, you, they) would be the "logical thing". On the other hand, for some reason English disjunctive expressions with the accusative/dative pronoun (me, you, his/her, us, you, them) appeal to me more (because they seem "smoother" somehow). Be it as it may, my conclusion from your replies is: 
English does *not* have a one and only prescribed form of use for the disjunctive pronoun. 
However, applied to the initial example sentence, I would distinguish the variants as follows by now: 

Question: Who attended the meeting with the headmaster?

Variant (a), which is considered correct by *linguists'* opinion/conviction:
I! It is I! He! It is he! My parents and I! His sister and he!

Variant (b), which is considered acceptable/correct in *colloquial* English, and probably the most commonly used form:
Me! It is me! Him! It is him! My parents and me! His sister and him!

Variant (c), which is considered not correct (because of inappropriate subject order):
I and my parents! Me and my parents! He and his sister! Him and his sister!

By the way, it would be interesting to know how examination boards view this issue?!


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## anhonestfool

Robocop,
It appears to me that the following conclusions are mostly correct:

Question: Who attended the meeting with the headmaster?

Variant (a), which is considered correct by linguists' opinion/conviction:
I! It is I! He! It is he! My parents and I! His sister and he!

Variant (b), which is considered acceptable/correct in colloquial English, and probably the most commonly used form:
Me! It is me! Him! It is him! My parents and me! His sister and him!

Variant (c), which is considered not correct (because of inappropriate subject order):
I and my parents! Me and my parents! He and his sister! Him and his sister!
One thing I would change is making the verb tense of the question and the answers match (Who attended the meeting with the headmaster? It _was_ I, It _was_ me, etc.)
Also, the exclamation point looks a bit out of place.  

In regard to Variant (c):
I don't think I've ever heard anybody say "I and my parents" or "He and his sister".  Both these sentences sound clumsy and unnatural to me.

However, I've commonly heard people say "Me and my parents" and "Him and his sister".  I am fully aware that it is grammatically incorrect, but quite common.

I hope this is helpful for you.


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## Forero

Robocop said:


> Variant (a), which is considered correct by *linguists'* opinion/conviction:
> I! It is I! He! It is he! My parents and I! His sister and he!


 
Not all linguists believe English necessarily follows a Latin model.  I would not say "linguists" but rather "most prescriptive grammarians" or "those trained in formal writing".

An English-speaking person who doesn't know or can't correctly use the nominative and accusative/dative as in the Latin model would be at a decided disadvantage in the English-speaking world.  That said, and since you are asking about the disjunctive, I have to say that the Latin model clearly does not always apply in all registers.

I halfway recall seeing a situation in a WR posting where even formal English prohibits using a nominative pronoun per the Latin model.  If such a situation is real, I am sure some would say "recast the sentence" rather than to allow the disjunctive construction, and others would find a clear way to delimit the exceptional case and prescribe a disjunctive only for that case.

I don't have much time right now, but I'll be on the lookout for that exceptional situation.


----------



## Robocop

@Anhonestfool: You are absolutely right, there is no need for an exclamation mark and, of course, the tenses of question and answer should agree in general.

@Forero: I agree, "most prescriptive grammarians" is a more appropriate denomination in this context. 

Also, I am well aware that disjunctive constructions in English are quite dispensable (not so in German!) and can always (?) be avoided.


----------



## liliput

Another good lengthy thread I see. Time to stick my oar in, although I may be repeating much of what has already been said.
"My parents and I" is obviously the correct grammatical form, and most people are well aware of this.
"Me and my parents" is probably the most common spoken form, at least in my part of the world. This is true to such an extent that I find it difficult to say "My parents and I" without it sounding like an affectation.
I don't mean to say that it *is* an affectation - some people had correct grammar more effectively drilled into them or weren't heavily exposed to the influence of the "me" form - and those people use the correct form perfectly naturally.
As an English teacher, I consider it my duty to teach and use the correct form. Socially, some of my friends might look at me a little strangely if I said "my parents and I".
Since it's probably relevant, I should add that I come from the same county as mally pense.


----------



## mally pense

Lots of theory here - some of it way over my head - but I can't help feeling that _actual usage_, which is what this forum is nominally about ("For questions involving English usage"), seems to throw up a strong case for the "Me and my parents" form being as correct as any alternative.

I have to come back to my previous naive question as to why alternative forms of actual usage cannot be dealt with by having more than one grammatical form that is considered correct, rather than having to relate to a _single _grammatical form (e.g. that traditionally taught in schools) with the end result that one spoken form then inevitably appears correct and another incorrect.

I'm sorry, but to me, if a grammatical theory fails to adequately model the most commonly spoken form (at least in certain parts of the world) then the theory itself is incorrect, at least as applied to that spoken form, though it would perhaps be better to say that it is incorrectly or inappropriately _applied _to that form rather than being incorrect in itself.

I am sure this argument has been run many times before, but in all of this, it is the continued insistence that millions of people are wrong in the way they speak simply because it does not match some supposedly 'correct' grammatical model which surprises me, especially as it appears from another thread that the futility of seeking singular forms of correctness in regard to pronunciation has long since been recognised and accepted.

Why then does grammatical form have to comply with a single model which is uniquely considered correct? Why can't we simply say that the ""Me and my parents" spoken form conforms to the XXX grammatical model and the "My parents and I" form conforms to the YYY grammatical model, _both_ of which are correct in their respective areas of usage, be that geographical, social, job interview, academic environment, or whatever.

Yes, there is a lot on controversy and disagreement over this I/Me issue, but doesn't most of that stem from the insistence that only a single grammatical form can be considered correct?


----------



## Thomas Tompion

mally pense said:


> Yes, there is a lot on controversy and disagreement over this I/Me issue, but doesn't most of that stem from the insistence that only a single grammatical form can be considered correct?


 
But Mally,

First, quite a lot of the posts have stated that different answers will be given by different people.

Second, surely if there were no standards of speech and writing, there'd be little point in having this forum, which partly exists to help people know what forms are acceptable and correct, as opposed to uneducated and barbarous. The moment you say anything goes in language, you ignore the fact that a lot of people draw important deductions from the way people speak. You may deplore the fact, but you ignore it at your peril, and, as we are concerned here with standards of communication, part of accurate civilized communication is knowing how others are likely to respond to the register and grammatical or ungrammatical structures we employ. Language is an elaborate convention, and the teachers need to pass the conventions onto the learners. Many of the members of the forum are learning English; they need advice about how best to communicate clearly and gracefully, and it's hard for them to do that if we native speakers don't give them an idea of what is correct or not, whether we hold only one or many forms to be correct.

I seem to remember Panjandrum putting all this very clearly many posts back.


----------



## mally pense

> quite a lot of the posts have stated that different answers will be given by different people


 
Yes, but many continue to insist that these people are speaking incorrectly. I don't think that is right.



> surely if there were no standards of speech and writing, there'd be little point in having this forum, which partly exists to help people know what forms are acceptable and correct, as opposed to uneducated and barbarous?


 
I suppose it depends on whether one considers "questions involving English usage" to be prescriptive or descriptive. For me, millions of native English speakers using a common form simply cannot be wrong, regardless of how much that contravenes a specific grammatical theory which fails to model their usage. And in terms of usefulness, I suppose it depends, as Panjandrum said, on whether they are seeking conformity to 'received grammar' (my words, not his), or are interested in finding out about actual usage. In any of these scenarios, there's no need to describe any particular usage as incorrect (a trap I myself fell into!). It is perfectly possibly to say that to conform to recieved grammar, one says this, to conform to common usage (in some contexts), one says the other. There's no need to describe either as incorrect.

I presume the "uneducated and barbarous" is tongue-in-cheek by the way.


----------



## mother earth

My two cents..... I learned that if you remove one of the subjects, the sentence would still be correct, as in: My parents and I went to...
My parents went to....I went to....
She and I went...
He and I went...
Me is often used in spoken english on every continent, but it is grammatically incorrect.


----------



## liliput

mally pense said:


> Yes, but many continue to insist that these people are speaking incorrectly. I don't think that is right.
> 
> 
> 
> I suppose it depends on whether one considers "questions involving English usage" to be prescriptive or descriptive. For me, millions of native English speakers using a common form simply cannot be wrong, regardless of how much that contravenes a specific grammatical theory which fails to model their usage. And in terms of usefulness, I suppose it depends, as Panjandrum said, on whether they are seeking conformity to 'received grammar' (my words, not his), or are interested in finding out about actual usage. In any of these scenarios, there's no need to describe any particular usage as incorrect (a trap I myself fell into!). It is perfectly possibly to say that to conform to recieved grammar, one says this, to conform to common usage (in some contexts), one says the other. There's no need to describe either as incorrect.
> 
> I presume the "uneducated and barbarous" is tongue-in-cheek by the way.


 

I can't speak for TT, but personally I use the terms _correct_ and _incorrect_ in this forum when referring to conformity to received grammar wthout the intention of dismissing the validity of common and colloquial usage. I mean it's correct or incorrect in the eyes of an English exam marker. These terms are considerably more convenient than "conforms to received grammar" and "doesn't conform to received grammar", I don't believe anyone intends to cause offence when they use them and people almost always refer to colloquial/common usage.
Having said that, your point coincides with that of Thomas Tompion who says "...a lot of people draw important deductions from the way people speak." Perhaps the terms _correct_ and _incorrect_ give the impression that the colloquial forms are completely unacceptable when speaking with natives. For grammatical purists, this colloquial form "me and my parents" _is_ completely unacceptable, but for a large number of the people it's perfectly normal use of the spoken language.
I agree with TT that it's important to have standards to work from, but the rules are constantly evolving (albeit slowly) in response to changes in usage. One of the joys of the English language is it's evolution and growth through the acceptance of new forms and structures. Like species, languages must adapt in order to survive. Efforts to maintain the "purity" of a language are important but, in my opinion, doomed to failure.


----------



## Robocop

Panjandrum mentioned the wide range of inquirers' motivations to turn to this forum, which consequently should be considered when replying. Right he is! 

In the course of this discussion, I have also learnt that discrimination between normative English (prescriptive grammar) and common use English (descriptive grammar) will in many cases be essential to appropriate answers. Having said that, it is obvious to me that inquirers, at the receiving end, should assist in the process by stating explicitly if they are aiming at a prescriptive language information (for example, by saying that they are learning for an exam).

*(Suggestion to the mods!!) *I wonder if it were helpful (and practicable) to have a checkbox "Normative English, please" in the post entry form, which you could optionally tick to indicate that the reply should be based on prescriptive English grammar?!


----------



## panjandrum

Robocop said:


> [...]
> *(Suggestion to the mods!!) *I wonder if it were helpful (and practicable) to have a checkbox "Normative English, please" in the post entry form, which you could optionally tick to indicate that the reply should be based on prescriptive English grammar?!


It's often quite obvious which kind of answer is required. If you look around the forum you should find that many posts explain the register of the response - comments like: OK in casual speech, not normally in writing, only in formal communications, if you're writing this for an exam, prescriptive grammarians would insist that, ... ...
No matter what kind of answer is appropriate, people like to offer variations and alternatives.  Mods, and others, quite often steer a thread back to the register appropriate to the question.


----------



## Dandee

Hello:

*"You and I"* or *"You and me"*

Wich one is correct or more correct?. Why?. In what situation or context?.

Thanks in advance.
Dandee.


----------



## Talant

Hi Dandee,

Both can be right or wrong.

"You and I" is the subject of the sentence (although we would say "we" more often)
"You and me" could be, for instance, the indirect object.

Bye


----------



## SpanishStudent_39

If it's the subject of the sentence, use "You and I".

Example: *You and I* are going to pick who is on the team.

If it's an object of the sentence, use "You and me".

Example: He picked *you and me* to be on the team. (direct object)
Example: He threw the ball to *you and me*. (indirect object)

If in doubt, just try forming the sentence just using "I" or "me" and leave out the "you".  It will become more obvious which one you should use.

He picked *me.*  (obviously not "I")
He picked *you and me.*


----------



## Thomas Tompion

Dandee said:


> Hello:
> 
> *"You and I"* or *"You and me"*
> 
> Wich one is correct or more correct?. Why?. In what situation or context?.
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> Dandee.


If you'd like to see a discussion of this in some detail, try http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=xxxxxxx&highlight=and+me


Moderator note:  Don't click on the link above.  The threads have been merged.


----------



## nichec

Dandee said:


> Hello:
> 
> *"You and I"* or *"You and me"*
> 
> Wich one is correct or more correct?. Why?. In what situation or context?.
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> Dandee.


 
--*You and I/we*, we have something in common.
--And what's that? The fact that everyone hates *you and me/us*?


----------



## dn88

I may be wrong, but:

_ "*You and I* went shopping."
"*Me and you* went shopping."
"*My brother and I* went shopping."
"*Me and my brother* went shopping."_

That's how I would say that.

dn88


----------



## SpanishStudent_39

In everyday conversation, I think dn88 is right.  But technically I think you are supposed to put a first person pronoun _*last*_: "you and *I*"  "her and *us*" etc.


----------



## englishinmadrid

dn88 said:


> I may be wrong, but:
> 
> _ "*You and I* went shopping."
> "*Me and you* went shopping."
> "*My brother and I* went shopping."
> "*Me and my brother* went shopping."_
> 
> That's how I would say that.
> 
> dn88



Grammatically, it should always be I/He/She/We/They for the subject.  So your example _Me and my brother went shopping_ is grammatically incorrect.  The word order (_My brother and me_ or _Me and my brother_) makes no difference.  However, it is a very common "mistake" and many native speakers would find it perfectly acceptable and comfortable in informal speech.  So arguably it is not a mistake at all, so long as the situation is informal.

Conclusion: in writing a report:
"My manager and I have discussed the issue."
but in the pub:
"My boss and me have talked about the problem."

The second one is "wrong" but acceptable to many people.


----------



## dn88

Oh, I see... But somehow "Me and my brother went shopping." sounds much better to me than "I and my brother went shopping." (And I would venture to say the former is much more common than the latter, albeit grammatically incorrect). 

Thanks a lot,

dn88


----------



## liliput

englishinmadrid said:


> Grammatically, it should always be I/He/She/We/They for the subject. So your example _Me and my brother went shopping_ is grammatically incorrect. The word order (_My brother and me_ or _Me and my brother_) makes no difference. However, it is a very common "mistake" and many native speakers would find it perfectly acceptable and comfortable in informal speech. So arguably it is not a mistake at all, so long as the situation is informal.
> 
> Conclusion: in writing a report:
> "My manager and I have discussed the issue."
> but in the pub:
> "My boss and me have talked about the problem."
> 
> The second one is "wrong" but acceptable to many people.


 
I would say "My manager and I" or "Me and my boss", but for some reason "My boss and me" doesn't sound good to me.


----------



## Arrius

SpanishStudent_39 said:


> In everyday conversation, I think dn88 is right. But technically I think you are supposed to put a first person pronoun _*last*_: "you and *I*" "her and *us*" etc.


 
It was rumoured that King Henry VIII was going, in spite of receiving from him the gift of Hampton Court Palace, to execute Cardinal Wolsey partly because he used the order Ego et rex meus (I and my King) in his writings, which in fact is fine in Latin but not even then in English.
The Cardinal discreetly died a natural death when about to be arrested.


----------



## englishinmadrid

liliput said:


> I would say "My manager and I" or "Me and my boss", but for some reason "My boss and me" doesn't sound good to me.



You're right  "Me and my boss" sounds better. So it's weird, because the "correct" version is "My manager and I" so when we switch to the informal "me" version then we swap the word order for some reason.  As I often say to my students, "there's no reason for it, it's just the crazy English people"


----------



## mally pense

Hmmm... interesting to see this discussion continuing. I must admit in the time it's been sat dormant, I've become convinced that if the answer to the original question "Who attended _etc"_ is just me, then I'm sure my answer would be "I did", never the single word answer "Me". However, in a group situation, like someone asking a group of children who wants an ice cream, the answer is almost certainly going to be "Me!", or just as likely, "Me me me me me!". Maybe if you're lucky there'll be a 'please' on the end, but either way, it's hard to image "I I I I I!" as a response.


----------



## englishinmadrid

mally pense said:


> ...in a group situation, like someone asking a group of children who wants an ice cream, the answer is almost certainly going to be "Me!", or just as likely, "Me me me me me!". Maybe if you're lucky there'll be a 'please' on the end, but either way, it's hard to image "I I I I I!" as a response.



Very true!  Isn't this related to something like:
"Who did this?" ...
"Not me!" or "Me!"
or "It wasn't me!"
or "It was me!"

"It was I" would be "correct" but sounds almost Shakespearian.  Furthermore, "It wasn't I" sounds totally weird, yet "It wasn't I who did that." sounds ok albeit overly formal.

Hmm, only joined this forum today - It's fun - I really ought to get on with some work


----------



## mally pense

Yes, it's certainly fun, and a relatively recent newcomer myself, can I be presumptuous enough to welcome you to the forum?

As an aside (are we allowed 'asides'?), "almost Shakespearian" seems a very good way of expressing that sense that the language has moved on (or arguably to some perhaps, _is_ moving on), but it always bemuses me a little when I see our French friends (for example, and no disrespect intended) describing English as "the language of Shakespeare" because clearly present day English _has_ moved on so much since that time.


----------



## englishinmadrid

Thy point is most valid and in truth thou hast made it well    Thanks for the welcome.

Here is Spain, I recently saw locally produced _"current" _English course materials (elementary level) which told students that English people say "How do you do?" when they are introduced. These were materials produced by a respectable state institution.  I can't remember the last time I heard anyone say "How do you do?"

They also seem to think we say "chin chin" when raising a glass.

Well, this is off topic, so I will stop now.  Or maybe: I _shall_ stop now.


----------



## panjandrum

Thanks for stopping at that point, englishinmadrid 

I have noticed more and more well-educated, highly-paid people saying "Me and my brother ..." but it still sounds wrong to me.
I still cringe a little when I hear it, and I am sure it will be marked incorrect in English exams for some time to come.


----------



## englishinmadrid

panjandrum said:


> Thanks for stopping at that point, englishinmadrid
> 
> I have noticed more and more well-educated, highly-paid people saying "Me and my brother ..." but it still sounds wrong to me.
> I still cringe a little when I hear it, and I am sure it will be marked incorrect in English exams for some time to come.



I agree it sounds "bad", and perhaps they're the same people who say _"If I was you..."_, but I think we have to accept that language evolves, and unless there's any genuine reason for not accepting a modern way of speaking or writing (e.g. it makes things more difficult to understand or learn) then why object?  At the end of the day, what does it really matter, so long as people understand?

A few statistics from Google:
"my brother and I are..." - 94,400 references
"me and my brother are..." - 19,300 references

So it would seem that the "correct" version stills wins by five to one, at least as currently written on the web.

But here's something interesting, more Google statistics:
"my brother and I should..." - 1,070,000 references
"me and my brother should..." - 1,030 references

So in this case the "correct" version is a thousand times more popular.  The ratio is even bigger for "me and my brother think..."

I'm not sure what conclusion to draw, but at least it seems there's still hope!

Andy


----------



## Arrius

One point that I don't think has been mentioned so far is the reverse effect when people anxious not to say _me_ when they should say _I _make a mistake through over-correction: e.g. Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II(Happy birthday, ma'am!) is often heard to say "It is a great ple-asure for my husband and* I *to be with you today". And Sir Cliff Richard having only the slim excuse of another pronoun not a noun separating his second pronoun from a preposition requiring the oblique case, used blithely to sing in the lyrics of "In the Country" :
Hur-ry, hur-ry, hur-ry, the tahm is passing bah. You don' need a ticket. it belongs to you and* I . *Perhaps his knighthood was in part due to his enthusiastic support of Her Majesty in this grammatical error.


----------



## panjandrum

Are you sure Arrius?
I have often heard her start a sentence with "My husband and I ..." - correctly.
I have never noticed her make the error you have quoted.
Can you give us a link?


----------



## Arrius

panjandrum said:


> Are you sure Arrius?
> I have often heard her start a sentence with "My husband and I ..." - correctly.
> I have never noticed her make the error you have quoted.
> Can you give us a link?


Sure, she says it right when it's the subject of the sentence but the same form is wrong after a preposition - that was my point. I have no link, only my own memory. But the lyrics of Sir Cliff's greatest hit, and the bane of English teachers everywhere, have no doubt been immortalized somewhere on the web. 
  Possibly she no longer says this: she has obviously had some coaching, and her delivery and unique family accent has changed quite a bit over the years, as has that of ex-public schoolboys, Oxbridge graduates, and BBC announcers, moving in the direction of Estuary English.


----------



## englishinmadrid

Whilst probably none are attributable to HRH QE2, Google has the following references:

"for my husband and I" --- 114,000  (74%)
"for my husband and me" --- 40,000  (26%)

"for my wife and I" --- 144,000  (75%)
"for my wife and me" --- 46,000 (25%)

"for my brother and I" --- 25,700  (58%)
 "for my brother and me" --- 18,900  (42%)

"for my sister and I" --- 29,300  (65%)
 "for my sister and me" --- 15,800 (35%)

Conclusion - Arrius made a very good point (which wouldn't have occured to me otherwise), and whether or not HRH makes this "mistake", it seems that a large majority of other people do.

(Is that on-topic enough?


----------



## Robocop

englishinmadrid said:


> Whilst probably none are attributable to HRH QE2, Google has the following references:
> 
> "for my husband and I" --- 114,000  (74%)
> "for my husband and me" --- 40,000  (26%)
> 
> "for my wife and I" --- 144,000  (75%)
> "for my wife and me" --- 46,000 (25%)
> 
> "for my brother and I" --- 25,700  (58%)
> "for my brother and me" --- 18,900  (42%)
> 
> "for my sister and I" --- 29,300  (65%)
> "for my sister and me" --- 15,800 (35%)
> 
> Conclusion - Arrius made a very good point (which wouldn't have occured to me otherwise), and whether or not HRH makes this "mistake", it seems that a large majority of other people do.
> 
> (Is that on-topic enough?



I don't think that the examples above lend themselves well to the cause of disjunctive pronouns in the *nominative *case. So far, it did not occur to me that the other cases (dative, accusative!) should be an issue as well?!


----------



## Robocop

I have just read in a Swiss German newspaper that a *web poll* has resulted in "*You and I*" (nominative case!) by Céline Dion becoming Hillary Clinton's campaign song. Well, I am inclined to see that as a clear vote with regard to my original question!


----------



## mally pense

> I am inclined to see that as a clear vote with regard to my original question!


 
The relevant lyrics (according to a quick online search) are:

"You and I
Were meant to fly
..."

As this is a simple statement, not a reply to a question, I don't see how this is relevant to your original question. Perhaps you could explain further?

Or perhaps it is a joke?


----------



## Robocop

mally pense said:


> The relevant lyrics (according to a quick online search) are:
> 
> "You and I
> Were meant to fly
> ..."
> 
> As this is a simple statement, not a reply to a question, I don't see how this is relevant to your original question. Perhaps you could explain further?
> 
> Or perhaps it is a joke?



I am *not *joking. My newspaper's headline and article is not about the lyrics of this song. What I am referring to is only the song title, "You and I", which *standing by itself*, represents disjunctive prounouns in the nominative case, as far as I understand at least. 
If I am wrong, I shall have to accept that.


----------



## mally pense

No, I'm sure you're right about that, but again, a song title is not the same as the reply to a question, which is what your original query was about. I therefore still have to question whether it is relevant. (Besides which, a song title could _arguably_ be a quote from any part of the lyric, so is not necessarily a particular part of speech.).

Apologies for assuming you might be joking by the way. That wasn't intending to be derogatory, it's just that in plain text it's not always easy to tell one way or another.


----------



## mplsray

Some of the controversies in this thread have been described by making use of the term _disjunctive._ Does it indeed make sense to use that term when speaking of English grammar? I've done some searching on the Internet, but nothing I've found has settled the matter in my mind. I'd like, in particular, to reconcile the term _disjunctive_ as used with English pronouns with the same term as used with French pronouns.


----------



## Robocop

mally pense said:


> ... but again, a song title is not the same as *the reply to a question*, which is what your original query was about. I therefore still have to question whether it is relevant.



While it is true that I used question and answer as an example for my query, I did not mean to restrict it this way. My concern was "disjunctive pronouns in the *nominative *case".

Look at this example (no question preceding here!):
*You and I / You and me* were the only ones to go home early last night.

For me, this example is part of the same issue. Won't you agree?

*My apologies*, I have just realized that the latest example does *not *qualify for the cause of "*disjunctive *pronouns". Nevertheless, I think the question of which form is correct would apply here also and is, I hope, not too far off-topic.


----------



## mally pense

I don't want to get involved in discussing this beyond the context which I thought, rightly or wrongly, that we had already established. Sorry! Perhaps a new thread would be more appropriate?


----------



## pomar

I have just read this thread through (?correct?), but there's still something I don't understand.
The grammar and you all (despite all different opinions) agree that, in a phrase like "My husband and I", the reason for putting the I after is a matter of politeness. Yet, in a reported speech or when talking about third persons, I don't see any politeness in keeping this order. Let's suppose the Queen says "My husband and I are very pleased to meet you", would you say, in a reported speech, "the Queen said that her husband and her were pleased to meet them"?  Not only it doesn't seem polite, but on the contrary it sounds to me somewhat disrespectful! Another example: I am talking with a female friend, whom I know very well, while I never met her husband, and ask them both to dinner. Why would it be polite asking her "Would your husband and you come to dinner tonight", if not for grammar reasons?
I know the formal rule and I know I will (shall) have to use it in a formal context. But it really recalls me the bowler-hat-and-umbrella Englishman


----------



## mally pense

Shame on me for never having been taught this politeness rule (or did I miss it?), but I've never been _aware _of it happening in practice. That's not to say it doesn't of course, but it maybe that that politeness would be wasted on the listener in many cases? If there was a 'rule' (in the loosest sense) for everyday usage, I suspect it would be to put the person you're talking to first when asking a question:

Would you and your husband like to come to dinner?

but when used at the start of a statement, it's possibly more usual to put the other person first:

My husband and I are going to the Algarve this summer.

Maybe...


----------



## Arrius

mplsray said:


> Some of the controversies in this thread have been described by making use of the term _disjunctive._ Does it indeed make sense to use that term when speaking of English grammar? I've done some searching on the Internet, but nothing I've found has settled the matter in my mind. I'd like, in particular, to reconcile the term _disjunctive_ as used with English pronouns with the same term as used with French pronouns.


 
You have a point there: in fact, in its article on English personal pronouns Wikipedia has to use French sentences to explain what it is meant by that term! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disjunctive_pronoun


----------



## liliput

pomar said:


> I have just read this thread through (?correct?), but there's still something I don't understand.
> The grammar and you all (despite all different opinions) agree that, in a phrase like "My husband and I", the reason for putting the I after is a matter of politeness. Yet, in a reported speech or when talking about third persons, I don't see any politeness in keeping this order. Let's suppose the Queen says "My husband and I are very pleased to meet you", would you say, in a reported speech, "the Queen said that her husband and her were pleased to meet them"? Not only it doesn't seem polite, but on the contrary it sounds to me somewhat disrespectful! Another example: I am talking with a female friend, whom I know very well, while I never met her husband, and ask them both to dinner. Why would it be polite asking her "Would your husband and you come to dinner tonight", if not for grammar reasons?
> I know the formal rule and I know I will (shall) have to use it in a formal context. But it really recalls me the bowler-hat-and-umbrella Englishman


 
For reported speech I would say "The Queen said that *she* and her husband were pleased to meet them."
And for the question "Would you and your husband come to dinner tonight?"
The politeness issue is only to do with putting *yourself *first. In formal English it's important to put other people first, but in colloquial English it's not so important (hence "My husband and I" vs. "Me and my husband"). I don't know how it is in Italian but even in colloquial Spanish I understand it's a serious error to mention yourself first.


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## englishinmadrid

liliput said:


> For reported speech I would say "The Queen said that *she* and her husband were pleased to meet them."



I agree, it should be: _She said that she and her husband..._ and that's certainly the gramatically correct version.  But, I can imagine some people saying: _She said that her and her husband_  or indeed  _...her husband and her...  _So, is this another another example where, like "My brother and me...", the grammatical "error" has become acceptable?


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## Arrius

I am not going to read all through this thread again but I don't think anybody has given the explanation yet that one says in colloquial English _Me and my husband_ instead of the carefully polite _My husband and I/me_, simply because the first statement flows better and is easier to say than the second. For the same reason all the many contractions in the language _isn't, won't_ etc.- it's just easier that way. We even use the technically wrong person of the verb in the question "Are'nt I" (BE /a:nt/ai, AE /ar-ent ai/) and even our well-to-do ancestors said "Ain't I?" to avoid the awkward Am not I? (Not irrelevant - I merely wished to show the lengths to which English is prepared to go to speak with greater ease)


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## englishinmadrid

Arrius said:


> I am not going to read all through this thread again but I don't think anybody has given the explanation yet that one says in colloquial English _Me and my husband_ instead of the carefully polite _My husband and I/me_, simply because the first statement flows better and is easier to say than the second.



Seems like a good theory, though to me, the only part which is difficult to say is "husband and" because of the double "and" sound.  By comparison, "My wife and I", said as "My wife'n'I" is just as easy, if not easier to say than "Me'n'my wife".  So, I accept that ease-of-speech has a part to play, but I think the two main reasons for this type of "error" are ignorance/laziness on the one hand and the desire to appear informal on the other.  On the latter point, I can remember as a child choosing to tone-down both my grammar and pronunciation because more than once my local peers made fun of my "posh" way of speaking.


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## pomar

Thank you all, but my question was not about grammar or about current use. All along these thread there have been, grosso modo, two positions:
one strictly keeping to prescriptive grammar and the other keeping to real use and descriptive grammar. Sorry for semplifing too much.
I read through all the proposed "paradigmas" in this thread: in the examples with the "My husband and I",  "Her husband and she" and "Their husbands and them" (_mutatis mutandis_) follow. Nobody seemed to notice or to mention a difference between speaking in first person and addressing other people or reporting a speech. The only difference everybody was pointing out was the "prescription" and the "use", and a lot af related _distinguo _(ex: is the prescription a real prescription, is there a difference between BE and AE, never _me_ in 2nd position and never _I_ in 1st position, and a lot more).
As for me, I know that somebody in some context could expect from me the "formal" use (particularly for my being a foreigner), but I would never use it with people I am in first name terms.
What I ask is: in a formal and grammatically prescriptive contest, what pronoun order I am supposed to use in the case of third persons and reported speech.
I know what to use in real life.

Arrius, in Italian we normally say "io" first, but write it in small letters 
By the way, we don't need a disjunctive pronoun as the French "moi", because we normally omit the pronouns and use them only they would be stressed in other languages.


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## englishinmadrid

In my opinion, in reported speech with two pronouns, a singular will come before a plural pronoun.  Other than that the order of pronouns is fairly unimportant, but that the pronoun which represents the speaker is more likely to come first.  

Example:
Joe said that he and his friends had gone to the beach.
-> Joe said that he and they had gone to the beach.
-> Joe said that they and he had gone to the beach.

Joe said that he and his girlfriend had gone to the beach.
-> Joe said that he and she had gone to the beach.
or: Joe said that she and he had gone to the beach. (less likely)

If I was actually talking to Joe (then one of the pronouns would be _you_) I think the above rules would still be followed:

_"Joe, you said that [you and she / she and you] had been to the beach, is that correct?" 
_


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## pomar

Thank you! I hope I got it now!
I've just realized that I made a lot of confusion, but the thread was so long!
I replied to the wrong person as well (it should have been liliput, not arrius).
Sorry!


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## Dr. Fumbles

Interesting discussion. Honestly I just stumbled upon the fact that we  have them in English (realistically they're just in the object case, but  that has a wide range of uses including being disjunctive) and it makes  sense considering the influence from French to English or vice versa  (hard to say which influenced which).  But it's standard in French but  not English, what's wrong with that picture, basically, native speakers  dictate what is correct, I saw he and they, this is wrong and an  over-correction, but I guess it stems from the fact that people consider  Him and them went to the store as something wrong when most say it.   Not too much longer now, and besides there is no ruling body to dictate  the standard anyways.

The one thing I don't understand is why order seems to be important, for instance:
(a) My parents and I!
 (b) My parents and me! 
 (c) I and my parents! 
 (d) Me and my parents!

Why does order matter?  But it seems that when we speak, I come first they come second, Me and my parents.

quoting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disjunctive_pronoun
But  as for the usage of object pronouns in disjunctive senses, disjunctive  pronouns are used for emphasis, or when no verb is present such as in an  elliptical construction. So going with that, Who wants cake. I.  Makes  no sense, Me sense the verb is missing and the person is disjuncted or  dislocated from the verb.  I do is correct if you use the verb but there  is a human tendency to use short answers, and me, you, him, her, etc.  fit perfectly for this.  And also in coordination with a noun phrase or  another pronoun:
Mes parents et moi arrivons dans une heure. Me and my parents are arriving in an hour. it would not literally be I and my parents...
And  also, it mentions the change from Middle to modern English where It am  I, paralleling eso soy yo in Castilian, became It is me, which is a lot  like C'est moi, which in all probability was Ce suis je in the past.

But  looking at their shared history, it makes sense that we say me and my  parents, and that it is also grammatically correct, as that's how actual  native speakers talk.  But hey just my opinion.  Why they never  standardized it is beyond me.  Maybe the Londoners never used it, just  like the double negative, but I digress. Later.


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## Dr. Fumbles

Completely agree, because, well, we don't include the verb in short answers, so Me would fit perfectly as it's dissociated from did.


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## Dr. Fumbles

No, that's incorrect, that's what most people think, but it's illogical.  The objective forms of the pronouns are filling in a syntactical need.  Me, him, her, us, them, you/it.  No native speaker (aside from kids still forming the language in there heads), and I mean no native speaker would ever say Me attended.  Because of the loss of the case system in English, My parents would technically be in the objective form as well.  But like I said, with the loss of the case system it doesn't seem that way.  The subject forms, I, he, she, we, they, you/it, fill in when there is an association, usually with the verb, but the object forms fill in when there is no association, Who wants cake?  We do.  Yes but Who wants cake. We.  Nobody in there right mind would say that unless trying to be overly correct.  Saying who attended, I unless you put it I did, would be like saying I say they.  But hey that's just my opinion.  Also like to point out that Whom attended wouldn't work but, I was asking whom it was would.  They want cake. Whom?  But sense we pretty much don't use that anymore that might seem absurd, but it's only following the rules we subconsciously use.


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## GreenWhiteBlue

Dr. Fumbles said:


> Also like to point out that Whom attended wouldn't work but, I was asking whom it was would.



No it wouldn't. You would not (or at least should not) say "whom was it?"  "Whom" works only if you are asking about a person who is the object of the verb, as in "Whom did you see?", or "Whom did he choose?" 



> They want cake. Whom?


Not at all.  Since the pronoun stands for the subject of the sentence (that is, those who want the cake), it needs to be nominative: "Who?"
In addition to the fact that "whom?" used this way is ungrammatical, it is also completely unnatural.  I have a hard time believing that many native speakers would say "Whom?" in this instance.


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## Dr. Fumbles

GreenWhiteBlue said:


> No it wouldn't. You would not (or at least should not) say "whom was it?"  "Whom" works only if you are asking about a person who is the object of the verb, as in "Whom did you see?", or "Whom did he choose?"
> 
> 
> Not at all.  Since the pronoun stands for the subject of the sentence (that is, those who want the cake), it needs to be nominative: "Who?"
> In addition to the fact that "whom?" used this way is ungrammatical, it is also completely unnatural.  I have a hard time believing that many native speakers would say "Whom?" in this instance.



Right, I wouldn't say Who wants cake?  Whom?  Neither would any other native speaker, but, since we say Who wants cake.  Me, him, her, etc, whom would fall into place; I was just using it to demonstrate that fact, since the object forms fill this syntactical roll.  But with the loss of whom, it's true, we wouldn't wouldn't say whom.


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## Forero

The disjunctive form applies to situations in which the pronoun is neither the subject of a verb nor an object of a verb or preposition. In most of the English-speaking world, the idea of a disjunctive case in English has been competing for centuries (at least since the original English case system (nominative, genitive, dative, instrumental, whatever) ceased to function and "It am I" became "It is me"/"It is I") with the idea that English should follow Latin-like rules (Latin has no disjunctive, and says merely "I am") and assign every pronoun in an utterance to either "subjective" (corresponding to nominative, vocative, or ablative absolute) or "objective" (corresponding to accusative, dative, or whatever else is not "subjective") case.

Both in French and in English, the disjunctive forms derive mostly, but not entirely, from accusative forms. In the case of _who_/_whom_, the disjunctive form is regularly _who_:

A: _I asked him to help me with this._
B:_Who?_ (= "Whom/Who did you ask to help you with that?")

The pronoun is objective in the complete sentence but disjunctive when used alone. In the complete sentence, _whom_ is correct but _who_ might be used in informal language; when used alone, only _who_ sounds natural (to me). I would not flinch at "Ask whom?", but just "Whom?" does not flow off the tongue.


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## Dr. Fumbles

I've had somewhat of a realisation, me in the sentence "The me that you know is a different me from today."  My question is would that be disjunctive, it's hard to say but I think it might be, any ideas?


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## mplsray

Dr. Fumbles said:


> I've had somewhat of a realisation, me in the sentence "The me that you know is a different me from today."  My question is would that be disjunctive, it's hard to say but I think it might be, any ideas?



The Oxford English Dictionary lists similar uses of _me_ as nouns. From the entry for _me_:


> *B.*_n.... _*2.* Personality, individuality; ego....
> 
> 1932   T. E. Lawrence tr. Homer _Odyssey_ xiv,   That was the fighting me: but labour I never could abide, nor the husbandry which breeds healthy children.
> 1988   S. Bellow _Theft_ 38,   I am in touch with the _me_ in myself.


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## JamesM

Dr. Fumbles said:


> I've had somewhat of a realisation, me in the sentence "The me that you know is a different me from today."  My question is would that be disjunctive, it's hard to say but I think it might be, any ideas?



I don't think that it's disjunctive.  It's just using "me" as a noun.  "The Dr. Fumbles you know is a different Dr. Fumbles from today."  "Me" is operating much like "Dr. Fumbles".


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## Forero

Dr. Fumbles said:


> I've had somewhat of a realisation, me in the sentence "The me that you know is a different me from today."  My question is would that be disjunctive, it's hard to say but I think it might be, any ideas?


This is _me_ used as a noun, not a pronoun, but also consider "_Me_ is what I call myself." The most natural, unmarked form of the pronoun _I_/_me_ is _me_. It is this unmarked form that most English speakers find natural to repurpose as a noun, verb, or whatever, not the subject form _I_.

French uses _moi_ (the disjunctive form) the same way, but in such cases German uses the same form as it uses for the subject of a finite verb, _ich_.


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