# The more I know people the more I love my dog.



## 涼宮

Witam 

*The more I know people the more I love my dog *(By Diogenes of Sinope Greek philosopher) is a pretty famous saying to state that whereas humans are selfish, betray, ungrateful, etc a dog would never do such a thing thus being animals more valuable than humans. I don't know if in Poland people use it. I am looking for a translation, I don't know if it was rephrased in Polish but keeping its meaning.

My try:

Im więcej znam ludzi tym więcej kocham mój psa.


Thanks in advance


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## dreamlike

I can't think of any decent polish expression at the moment but I might lend you a hand in translating the english adage: 

*Im bardziej poznaję się na ludziach, tym bardziej kocham mojego psa. *(although others might come up with something better


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## BezierCurve

A tad shorter option: 

Im lepiej znam ludzi, tym bardziej kocham swojego psa.


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## Thomas1

Another option:
Im bardziej poznaję ludzi, tym bardziej kocham zwierzęta.


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## dreamlike

I think that both my and BezierCurve suggestion does not stand a chance of winning this little competition now that Thomas contributed  Seems like a perfect translation, getting heaps of google results - http://www.cytaty.info/cytat/imbardziejpoznajeludzi/1


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## majlo

Supposing Diogenes had meant the dog, and not animals in general, I'd stick to the literal version. Certainly, nobody loves, say, mosquitoes more than his or her dog.


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## LilianaB

The Polish saying, however is_ Czym lepiej poznasz ludzi tym bardziej polubisz zwierzęta_. Yours is a more literal translation.


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## dreamlike

Is it? I've never heard it and Google makes no mention of it. Also, "*czym lepiej"* seems rather dubious to me, I've never heard it either. It's always been "*Im* lepiej..." to me


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## majlo

"Czym lepiej" is considered a mistake. But Liliana surely knows about that.  
I've never heard this saying either but maybe our command of Polish (as well as Google's) is not sufficient enough. 

By the way, Liliana, why would you state obvious things like 'yours is a more literal translation'? I just said, 'I'd stick to the _*literal*_ version.


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## LilianaB

Since when _czym lepiej _has been considered a mistake, very interesting. ​


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## dreamlike

It sounds very odd to me, I've never heard it in my entire life. *The more... the more..* is construction always translated this way: *Im bardziej... tym bardziej...*


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## Rusak963

LilianaB said:


> Since when _czym lepiej _has been considered a mistake, very interesting. ​


I guess since ancient times .


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## LilianaB

Polish did not exist in the ancient times, do you mean Proto-Indo-European?


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## LilianaB

Czym lepiej znasz angielski tym latwiej ci nawiazywac kontakty, czym wiecej czlowiek je tym staje sie silniejszy. These are wrong too, in your opinion. Anybody from the Polish department, anybody with a degree in Polish or a Polish teacher?


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## BezierCurve

According to these two authors "czym" shouldn't be used instead of "im":

http://portalwiedzy.onet.pl/140449,,,,im_tym_czym_tym,haslo.html

Personally I don't see it as a terrible mistake, since it can be found in a number of serious publications. Still, I belong to that 99.9% of Polish speakers who don't have a degree in Polish, so don't mind me.


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## jazyk

They talk about it here too: http://poradnia.pwn.pl/lista.php?szukaj=%22czym+wi%EAcej%22&kat=18

I might inadvertently say it because of Czech, but I always try to use im.


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## majlo

LilianaB said:


> Czym lepiej znasz angielski*,* tym latwiej ci nawiazywac kontakty, czym wiecej czlowiek je*,* tym staje sie silniejszy. These are wrong too, in your opinion*? (unless you're mind reading again)* Anybody from the Polish department, anybody with a degree in Polish or a Polish teacher?


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## 涼宮

Thank you all of you! I will stick with Thomas' version  Just a little doubt about the verb to love in this case. The dictionary says it can take both accusative and dative, but you used more the dative case. Is it a personal like or does it have a difference of nuance depending on case?


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## Rusak963

LilianaB said:


> Polish did not exist in the ancient times, do you mean Proto-Indo-European?


I do not mean that. It was meant to be a joke. This is a mistake since I don't know when.


LilianaB said:


> These are wrong too, in your opinion?


Yes.


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## LilianaB

I would trust you, Bezier, because you write in decent Polish, no degree required. _Im_ sounds better, you are right, but I would not think czym is a mistake either. _Im lepiej poznasz ludzi tym bardziej pokochasz zwierzeta_, would be my version


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## BezierCurve

> Thank you all of you! I will stick with Thomas' version  Just a little doubt about the verb to love in this case. The dictionary says it can take both accusative and dative, but you used more the dative case. Is it a personal like or does it have a difference of nuance depending on case?



In all the examples above the object was in accusative (psa, zwierzęta; in dative it would be ps*u*, zwierzęt*om*).

I really doubt if "to love" > "kochać" can actually take dative though...


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## 涼宮

I said it because of the possessive pronoun.  mój masculine accusative but mojego genitive masculine/neuter. That's how I saw them.


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## BezierCurve

Ah, fair enough. But that's masculine *animate*, hence a different form. If it was an inanimate object, say, dom, (a house), we'd have it as you thought: "kocham swój (mój) dom".


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## Thomas1

'czym... tym' used to be considered erroneous, but it isn't anymore:





> *
> IV co* «spójnik» _pot._
> *a)* «łączący, zwykle wraz ze swoim odpowiednikiem _to_, wypowiedzenia lub ich równoważniki; komunikuje, że między regularnie powtarzającymi się faktami zachodzi związek polegający na tym, że za każdym razem, gdy ma miejsce pierwszy z nich, ma miejsce również drugi; ilekroć ..., (tylekroć ...); ile razy ..., (tyle razy ...)»:
> Co wstawał, robiło mu się ciemno w oczach.
> [...]
> Co strzelił, to chybił.
> [...]
> à _fraz._ Czym ..., tym ... «im ..., tym ...»:
> Czym starszy, tym głupszy.
> Czym większy przywódca, tym groźniejszy jego upadek.
> _Uniwersalny słownik języka polskiego [USJP],_ Wydawnictwo Naukowe PWN, 2004


I'm sure most of us know: _czym prędzej, tym lepiej_ (I'm well aware it was, or even still is, frowned upon by purists, but yet Polish native speakers have made a go of it.). However, the formula 'czym... tym...' still seems controversial to some Polish native speakers who won't accept it, maybe apart from some stock phrases. Personally, I see nothing wrong with it, but stylistically 'im... tym...' sounds more palatable in the case at hand.

Note that there should be a comma before 'tym' in these constructions.

@ Suzumiya: your translation has some grammatical mistakes:
Im więcej znam ludzi*,* tym więcej kocham mój* mojego* psa.
As to phraseology:
Im więcej znam ludzi --> this more implies the increasing number of people that you know rather than the time that grows longer as you know them, which I think is the case here. So that's why another adverb is more suitable, e.g.: bardziej.
In the second part of the sentence, the adverb 'więcej' sounds a little bit too colloquial to me, the more proper would be again 'bardziej'. Other, than that your translation works too.

EDIT: I've just seen some of the previous posts.
EDIT2: I have no degree in Polish either.


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## 涼宮

BezierCurve said:


> Ah, fair enough. But that's masculine *animate*, hence a different form. If it was an inanimate object, say, dom, (a house), we'd have it as you thought: "kocham swój (mój) dom".



Thank you! So that was why! From where I learnt the possessives, they never mentioned that -ój was for inanimateness  it just says ''masculine''


Thomas1 said:


> @ Suzumiya: your translation has some grammatical mistakes:
> Im więcej znam ludzi*,* tym więcej kocham mój* mojego* psa.
> As to phraseology:
> Im więcej znam ludzi --> this more implies the increasing number of people that you know rather than the time that grows longer as you know them, which I think is the case here. So that's why another adverb is more suitable, e.g.: bardziej.
> In the second part of the sentence, the adverb 'więcej' sounds a little bit too colloquial to me, the more proper would be again 'bardziej'. Other, than that your translation works too.
> 
> EDIT: I've just seen some of the previous posts.



Thank you!


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## BezierCurve

> Thank you! So that was why! From where I learnt the possessives, they never mentioned that -ój was for inanimateness  it just says ''masculine''



It actually applies to all the masculine "subgenders" (personal, animate, inanimate) in nominative case:

N: mój ojciec, mój pies, mój dom 

It just gets trickier in accusative:

A: mojego ojca, mojego psa, _mój_ dom

Hope it's all clear now.

PS.: In plural the animate nouns behave like inanimate though (A: moich ojców, moje psy, moje domy).


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## 涼宮

I see, thank you! What happens is that the PDF A grammar of contemporary Polish by Oscar E. Swan shows that the accusative for mój masculine can be mój (nominative) and genitive mojego. But he doesn't mention inanimateness. That was my confusion, I thought both versions would be fine in th'accusative.


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## Lorenc

涼宮 said:


> I see, thank you! What happens is that the PDF A grammar of contemporary Polish by Oscar E. Swan shows that the accusative for mój masculine can be mój (nominative) and genitive mojego. But he doesn't mention inanimateness. That was my confusion, I thought both versions would be fine in th'accusative.



Maybe you didn't read the grammar carefully enough (which is excusable, as it contains a lot of material!) The declension table for "mój" is at p167 and for the accusative says N/G meaning it's equal to the nominative or genitive depending on animacy. I quote below points 2. and 3. p67

Inanimate nouns take the Asg. like the Nsg. (no matter what the Gsg.):
stół table, NAsg. stół; ręcznik towel, NAsg. ręcznik.

Animate nouns take the Asg. like the Gsg. (which will be -a): koń horse,
GAsg. konia; student student, GAsg. studenta.


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## 涼宮

Thank you! I hadn't read that part. Yes, it's indeed a lot of pages. Almost 500.


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## pracadomowa

LilianaB said:


> Since when _czym lepiej _has been considered a mistake, very interesting. ​





LilianaB said:


> Czym lepiej znasz angielski tym latwiej ci nawiazywac kontakty, czym wiecej czlowiek je tym staje sie silniejszy. These are wrong too, in your opinion. Anybody from the Polish department, anybody with a degree in Polish or a Polish teacher?



_ "Czym"_, in the meaning being discussed here, is a bit outdated and I can think of some very old people who would use "czym" instead of "im".  

However, there is also a serious problem with "im", although it hadn't been described in the following link (I'm not allowed to add links, so you can look up the link submitted by BezierCurve):


_Związki wyrazowe
Poprawny spójnik zestawiony brzmi im..., tym...: Im więcej piszę, tym mniej mi się to podoba; Im więcej, tym lepiej. Niektórzy podmieniają pierwszy człon tego złożenia i tworzą błędne konstrukcje czym..., tym... *Takie złożenie jest jednak nielogiczne – czym to przecież zaimek *(N, Msc zaimka b), a nie spójnik.

_Well, "im" would be also illogical as it commonly means "them" as in _"give them some money" "daj im trochę pieniędzy"_. "czym" in phrases like:
_czym więcej, tym lepiej (the more the better) 
_is influenced by Russian _(чем больше, тем лучше - ch'em bol'she t'em lut'she)_ and I wouldn't dare to use "czym" in such phrases neither in my homework assignments nor in my thesis. However, you'll surely find thousands of books written in the 19th century, and possibly in the 20th century, where "czym" is commonly used in phrases  like *czym więcej, tym lepiej (the more the better). *


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## Thomas1

Despite the pronominal nature of ‘co’ steming from its origin, it is also used as other parts of speech. Let’s take the old-fashioned wording ‘co prędzej’ and its archaic-like form ‘czym prędzej’, still found in literature. The ‘co’ and ‘czym’ are adverbs here, they reinforce the meaning of the adverb ‘prędko’*. ‘Czym… tym…’ is a conjucntion composed of two adverbs ‘czym’ and ‘tym’ and it means ‘im… tym…’, the ‘im’ also acts as an adverb although pronoun by default. Both ‘czym’ and ‘im’, in conjunctive function, can modify either an adverb or an adjective either in the comparative or in the superlative.

*also compare: ‘co najmniej’, ‘co najwyżej’, ‘wybierał tylko co lepsze (sztuki)’, ‘co tchu’.

The conjunction ‘czym… tym…’ as well as ‘czym’ as an adverb were included by B. Linde in one of the first Polish dictionaries (the corpus comes from between the 16th and 18th centuries), published at the very beginning of the 19th century. In the middle of the 19th century it was still OK: 





> 6) Co, to, lub _czym, tym_, przy stopniu wyższym przysłówków, zamiast im -tym, np co dalej, to gorzej; czym wyżej, tym trudniej.
> Muczkowski, J., _Gramatyka języka polskiego_, 1836
> http://books.google.pl/books?id=yagZAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA194&dq="+czym+...+tym"&hl=pl&sa=X&ei=kaD9TpeGDdGFsgasm4jiDw&ved=0CFAQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=" czym ... tym"&f=false


 
Another example from an encyclopædia: 


> Czem więcej sobie ceniono instytucje kościelne spowiedzi i pokuty, tem większą przywiązywać musiano wagę do „pokory”.
> Gloger, Z., _Encyklopedia staropolska_, tom IV, 1900-1903
> http://literat.ug.edu.pl/glogers/0033.htm
> http://pl.wikisource.org/wiki/Encyklopedia_staropolska/Pokora_publiczna


So I’m wondering whether it is not originally Polish, or, in fact, even Panslavic. Then, at some time, ‘im… tym…’ must have taken precedence and the frequency of ‘czym… tym’ decreased. Since the construction ‘чем… тем…’is common in Russian, people started to think, ‘czym… tym…’ was a loan translation from the language of Pushkin. 

As has been already mentioned, ‘czym… tym…’ has been used in literature and in serious publications, but since ‘im… tym…’ is much better established in modern Polish and ‘czym… tym…’ has got a somewhat archaic overtone, regardless of the fact that it was/is regarded by many people incorrect, you have to know how to use it _correctly_.


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## LilianaB

_Czym predzej_ shouldn't be that archaic. I do not speak the language from the 16th century. I do not think forty would qualify as old people who say _czym_. Most of the people I know who are about forty or fifty the most would use _czym_ instead of _im _in certain contexts. Even the Christmas carol has czym _czym predzej sie wybierajcie do Bethlejem pospieszajcie_. I think the problem is more complex than just archaic versus modern.


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## Thomas1

That's why I wrote 'a somewhat archaic'. Also, a lot depends on context of course. For instance, the Christmas carol you're quoting uses a modernised version of Old Polish, or was written for this effect, whose language is perfectly understandable to a Pole in the street, but not many a Pole would use, for example, the verb 'pospieszać/pośpieszać' in this meaning in an everyday conversation. Such language spurs associations with the Old Polish language. In many instances, 'czym' will only sound outdated. It's just occured to me that it may be also a generational thing.
I've also heard the version of the carol which uses 'czem' instead of 'czym'.

PS: 'Bethlehem' is spelled 'Betlejem' in Polish.


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## LilianaB

Yes, you are right, czem, would be the archaic form. What is your opinion about czym and im? Are they mutually exclusive? Is _czym _ only appropriate in certain contexts where _im_ is not? Are they interchangeable in certain contexts? Does it also depend on the phonetic aspect of the words they are followed by?


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## BezierCurve

> Well, "im" would be also illogical as it commonly means "them"



I wonder if both "im"-s here have a common etymological source... Can't find anything at the moment though.


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## Thomas1

Please note that I’m not a regular user of ‘czym’, I rather know some people who use it more or less on a regular basis and I can’t think of all possible contexts where you can use the words. So take what I’ll say in a moment with a lump of salt, Liliana. 


LilianaB said:


> Yes, you are right, czem, would be the archaic form.


This form is also used by some people, especially in rural areas. Maybe I’ll give an analogical example. Some time ago I caught a glimpse of a documentary on TV in which people’s life from some remote region in Poland was shown (unfortunately, I don’t remember which one). A man, around 50, used ‘ku’ in a way that I regard as archaic: poszła ku szkole. I was quite surprised by that. I and people I rub elbows with normally use ‘ku’ in a metaphorical way as in ‘skłaniać się ku czemuś’ or ‘pomnik ku czci’, but not in a spacial sense. So archaic may be relative depending on the criteria you accept. Anyway, in the standard Polish of media and most other people I know it so.


LilianaB said:


> What is your opinion about czym and im?


I think they are both Polish words. I believe I don’t use ‘czym’ often in speech in the meaning we’re discussing here and I would think twice before using it in writing. Most often I perceive it as obsolete and antiquated, sometimes old-fashioned.


LilianaB said:


> Are they mutually exclusive?


Could you please provide a sample in which this process could be illustrated (can be completely different words either in Polish or in English)?


LilianaB said:


> Is _czym _only appropriate in certain contexts where _im_ is not?


Yes, it is. Example: the Christmas carol you’ve given. When ‘czym + the comparative’ is used to mean ‘jak + superlative’ then ‘im’ is not an appropriate word as its substitute. Moreover, ‘czym’ used like that seems even rarer to me than ‘czym… tym…’. I have problems giving another example used in modern Polish where it would be used like that. It seems to me that ‘czym prędzej’ is still known thanks to the Christmas carol, but some research would have to be done to confirm that. [The more I think about it, the more I believe that the version with ‘czem’ is what I’ve heard the most often.]


LilianaB said:


> Are they interchangeable in certain contexts?


Yes, they are. Example: the sentence discussed in this thread is where they are semantically equivalent. In other words, they are interchangeable only in conjunction with ‘tym’, though the overtone of the sentences is different to me.


LilianaB said:


> Does it also depend on the phonetic aspect of the words they are followed by?


If by phonetic aspect, we can understand that the words are supposed to sound like archaic/old-fashioned or the text is stylised to imitate someone from the east borderline, Russia, the Ukraine, Belarus or the like then I’d say that ‘czym’ could hit the mark. But then again, such texts usually brim with this type of vocabulary.


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## LilianaB

What do you think about such phrases as: _czym lepiej_, _czym dluzej_? Would you say it should be _Im lepiej znasz_, _im dluzej_ _znasz_? I think the newspapers and magazines used _czym_ more often some twenty years ago. I do not read Polish press that often anymore, especially press printed in Poland, but I think those expressions were quite standard a while ago. The _ku_ you mentioned must be from the Ukrainian border, I think._ Czym_, however, was standard Polish some time ago. What I meant also, was whether you would use czym prendzej rather than im predzej, whereas im lepiej rather than czym lepiej. Would they be fixed expressions, in a way?


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## Thomas1

I'm not familiar with constructions like '_czym lepiej_, _czym dluzej_' or '_Im lepiej znasz_, _im dluzej_ _znasz_'. They are meaningless to me. Unless there's some context? I'd have said: (tym) _lepiej znasz, im dłużej znasz_. ['czym' could replace 'im' here technically, but I haven't come across it used with this type of order.] _. _However,  this is good to draw the attention of the reader, as it uses an  unusual word order; the best would be to reverse the parts and use the  normal wording: _im dłużej znasz, tym lepiej znasz_.


'Czym prędzej się wybierajcie' is the only option here. It is equivalent to 'jak najprędzej się wybierajcie'.
If, however, you use it in conjunction with 'tym' both 'czym' and 'im' are possible:
'czym/im prędzej to zrobisz, tym lepiej.'

'Im lepiej to zrobisz, tym więcej zarobisz.' is an example of how I could use 'im' with 'lepiej'. Would I use 'czym'? I don't think so. I wouldn't use it in many other cases either, 'im dalej w las, tym więcej drzew' .


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## dreamlike

I'd like to make a few points.



			
				LilianaB said:
			
		

> What do you think about such phrases as: _czym lepiej_, _czym dluzej_?



I would expect to hear _*im* lepiej_, _*im* dłużej_. It was only after I read this thread that I realised that it is acceptable for one to use _czym_ instead of _im_. Although such usage is permissible, I think it would cause some raised eyebrows in my area. And I don't think it would be loooked upon favourably by linguist since it's obsolete.

If one want to show a relation between something, *Im... tym...* seems the best choice to me. What purpose does it serve to replace *im* with *czym* if it is the former that is widely-used? To achieve bizzare-language effect?

The bottom line is that unless you want your speech or writing to seem old-fashioned, you should stick to more common conjunction, the one with *im*.


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## marco_2

LilianaB said:


> The _ku_ you mentioned must be from the Ukrainian border, I think.



... and  *ku  *has nothing in common with "the Ukrainian border", it is just an old preposition which you can find in many older texts (cf. Jak Belina z swą szabelką pędzi ku Warszawie) and in many dialects far away from Ukraine.


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## pracadomowa

dreamlike said:


> What purpose does it serve to replace *im* with *czym* if it is the former that is widely-used? To achieve bizzare-language effect?
> 
> The bottom line is that unless you want your speech or writing to seem  old-fashioned, you should stick to more common conjunction, the one with  *im*.



Polish schools with their national  curriculum have produced a unified modern Polish language; at the same  time Polish schools have developed significant awarness of the language  of the past (the Polish language as it used to be during the 5 past  centuries) among Polish students. Polish students learn archaic words  and forms because they are required to be able to write not only modern  Polish language, but also archaic Polish language. 

The phrases with the pattern _czym .... , tym ..._ belong to modern Polish language as long as they don't carry the meaning of the English phrase _the ... the ...._ . I mean it is possible to say in modern Polish:

_*czym *się perfumujesz, *tym *pachniesz_

and  please take a closer look at this phrase, because I want to use the  phrase to prove that basically incorrect are the following phrases:

_*czym *szybciej idziesz, tym prędzej dojdziesz (*im *_must be used instead of _*czym*_)
or
_*czym *uważniejszej słuchasz, tym więcej zrozumiesz (*im *_must be used instead of _*czym*_).
the above line should be: _*czym *uważniej słuchasz, tym więcej zrozumiesz (*im *_must be used instead of _*czym*_). (I'm sorry to have written a form so stupid and nonsense, I didn't mean it at all. I didn't want to. )

However, the above rule does not apply when you don't have to write in correct modern Polish , or  when you want to produce an archaic or funny effect. By speaking  incorrectly (and there are lots of ways to speak incorrect Polish) you  can produce various comic effects.


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## LilianaB

Uwazniejszej is not a Polish word. Uwazniej. Czym uwazniej sluchasz tym wiecej sie dowiesz. Im uwazniej sluchasz tym wiecej uslyszysz. Both phrases are fine, I have checked with a journalist who still writes for a Polish paper. Happy New Year.


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## dreamlike

pracadomowa said:
			
		

> Polish students learn archaic words  and forms because they are required  to be able to write not only modern  Polish language, but also archaic  Polish language.



Writing archaic Polish may prove difficult to do for most of Polish students. The vast majority of them have difficulties writing modern Polish, let alone the archaic one. Anyway, I got your point and I think it's imporant for us to know how our language looked like in past, and what changes it underwent.



			
				pracadomowa said:
			
		

> The phrases with the pattern _czym .... , tym ..._ belong to modern Polish language as long as they don't carry the meaning of the English phrase _the ... the ...._



In my post on the first page I refused to believe that _czym .... , tym ... _is correct as @LilianaB used it to translate the very English phrase _the ... the ... _It struck me as very odd. Later on I realised there are some instances where one can use it. But as we all agree translating the English the ... the ... is not one of them. Unless one wants to sound old-fashioned.



			
				LilianaB said:
			
		

> uwazniejszej is not a Polish word. Uwazniej. Czym uwazniej sluchasz tym  wiecej sie dowiesz. Im uwazniej sluchasz tym wiecej uslyszysz. Both  phrases are fine, I have checked with a journalist who still writes for a  Polish paper.



I'm sure @pracadomowa meant "uważniej". I'd have a hard time believing that a native-speaker could make such a blatant error. Both phrases are fine to the extent that they're correct. But as all almost everyone in this thread pointed out, such usage is obsolete and one would expect to hear "im" instead.


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## Thomas1

pracadomowa said:


> Polish schools with their national   curriculum have produced a unified modern Polish language; at the same   time Polish schools have developed significant awarness of the language   of the past (the Polish language as it used to be during the 5 past   centuries) among Polish students. Polish students learn archaic words   and forms because they are required to be able to write not only modern   Polish language, but also archaic Polish language.
> 
> The phrases with the pattern _czym .... , tym ..._ belong to modern Polish language as long as they don't carry the meaning of the English phrase _the ... the ...._ . I mean it is possible to say in modern Polish:
> 
> _*czym *się perfumujesz, *tym *pachniesz_
> 
> and  please take a closer look at this phrase, because I want to use the   phrase to prove that basically incorrect are the following phrases:
> 
> _*czym *szybciej idziesz, tym prędzej dojdziesz (*im *_must be used instead of _*czym*_)
> or
> _*czym *uważniejszej słuchasz, tym więcej zrozumiesz (*im *_must be used instead of _*czym*_).
> 
> However, the above rule does not apply when you don't have to write in  correct modern Polish , or  when you want to produce an archaic or funny  effect. By speaking  incorrectly (and there are lots of ways to speak  incorrect Polish) you  can produce various comic effects.



How would you translate these then?





> Czym starszy, tym głupszy.
> Czym większy przywódca, tym groźniejszy jego upadek.





LilianaB said:


> Uwazniejszej is not a Polish word. Uwazniej. Czym uwazniej sluchasz tym wiecej sie dowiesz. Im uwazniej sluchasz tym wiecej uslyszysz. Both phrases are fine, I have checked with a journalist who still writes for a Polish paper. Happy New Year.



I would like to add to what I've written so far that ‘czym’ used with the comparative sounds more antiquated and obsolete to me than ‘czym… tym…’.

I think it would be good to see how the construction is used. Here are some Google results from the media (just bear in mind that sometimes you will have to read the sample as there are also results that are not relevant):
"im * tym " site:tygodnik.onet.pl/
"czym * tym " site:tygodnik.onet.pl/
"czym * tym " site:www.dziennikpolski24.pl
"im * tym " site:www.dziennikpolski24.pl
"czym * tym " site:www.gazeta.pl
"im * tym " site:www.gazeta.pl
"czym * tym " site:www.wprost.pl
"im * tym " site:www.wprost.pl
"czym * tym " site:www.rp.pl
"im * tym " site:www.rp.pl
"im * tym " site:www2.tygodnik.com.pl/
"czym * tym " site:www2.tygodnik.com.pl/
"czym * tym " site:www.tvn.pl/
"im * tym " site:www.tvn.pl/
"im * tym " site:www.tvn24.pl/
"czym * tym " site:www.tvn24.pl/
"czym * tym " site:tvp.info/
"im * tym " site:tvp.info/
"im * tym " site:www.tvp.pl/
"czym * tym " site:www.tvp.pl/
"czym * tym " site:www.polsat.pl/
"im * tym " site:www.polsat.pl/
"im * tym " site:tvpolsat.info/
"czym * tym " site:tvpolsat.info/
"czym * tym " site:www.newsweek.pl/
"im * tym " site:www.newsweek.pl/
"im * tym " Google Wiadomości
"czym * tym " Google Wiadomości

Whichever medium you will research to see if the constructions are used, you will immediately note that ‘im… tym…’ is overwhelmingly more frequent than ‘czym… tym…’.  Sometimes there aren’t any results for the latter at all. You will also notice that ‘czym… tym… is quite frequently used in oral speech [here I mean either transcription of someone’s words or comments that haven’t been edited by a proofreader.]

PS: Happy New Year to everyone!


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## LilianaB

Hi, Thomas. Thank you for all that effort. What do you think about the use of im and czym in proverbs? Wouln't czym be more appropriate for proverbs?


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## dreamlike

LilianaB said:
			
		

> Wouln't czym be more appropriate for proverbs?



I think you're splitting hairs here. We all arrived at the conclusion that although "czym... im..." is correct, it is outdated and makes your text/speech old-fashioned. So it becomes clear that "czym" would be appropriate for proverbs coined before, say, 20th century. I don't think it makes any difference if you use "czym" or "im" other than that of modernity of your text/speech, and the same goes for proverbs.


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## LilianaB

Aren't proverbs outdated as you call it, or rather eternal in a way. The language of proverbs and fairy tales is different, isn't it?


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## dreamlike

I was about to add that since most of the proverbs were coined long time ago "czym" might be more apt than "im". I wonder what others think of it.


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## LilianaB

I would think czym is more appropriate for proverbs, or at least as valid.


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## pracadomowa

LilianaB said:


> Hi, Thomas. Thank you for all that effort. What do you think about the use of im and czym in proverbs? Wouln't czym be more appropriate for proverbs?



Yes, Polish proverbs belong to the traditional language of common folks and their forms and patterns don't have to follow modern grammar not only because those proverbs had been created by mostly uneducated or inadequately educated people, but also by people of different regions with their various local language traditions. However, please have in mind that educated people in Poland had used Latin or French on daily basis, and the most popular collection of proverbs had been published in Latin, not in Polish. When Poland was divided into Russia and German countries, schools began teaching Russian and German and these languages became the languages of educated people in former Poland.  *Polish proverbs had never been published until the very end of the 19th century.* For this reason Polish proverbs are only slightly influenced by grammar whereas  they are significantly influenced by the language patters and forms typical for the peasants.

Happy New Year!!!


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## pracadomowa

LilianaB said:


> Uwazniejszej is not a Polish word. Uwazniej. Czym uwazniej sluchasz tym wiecej sie dowiesz. Im uwazniej sluchasz tym wiecej uslyszysz. Both phrases are fine, I have checked with a journalist who still writes for a Polish paper. Happy New Year.



I'm sorry Liliana for making so much mess with having written _uważniejszej _instead of _uważniej  _- and thank you for correcting me. I have added a corrected line to my post. 

You seem still somehow disregard the use of czym..., tym... in homework assignments, exam essays, or theses. Such use is considered a mistake and you'll experience considerable difficulty trying to find a teacher of Polish who would say otherwise. However, your point is interesting and your explanation is very convincing.


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## LilianaB

Thank you Pracadomowa, I might say im automatically in constructions not related to proverbs or old language, I am not sure. I think I used czym  because it was a proverb. I could have heard it this way. I use im but I am not sure when exactly, it is more automatic. When I think about it too much, I get confused. As for your other post, this is true the other languages were literary languages in certain parts of Poland, this is why people from those regions, older people, did not usually speak literary Polish, only a dialect and German or Russian, of course it also depended on the individuals: there might have been exceptions.


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## Ben Jamin

Rusak963 said:


> I guess since ancient times .


Are you so sure? What about Old Polish?
It is, however, a common expression in many dialects, slang, and substandard speech. Not recognized in “język literacki”.


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## Ben Jamin

Since I began to participate in the Polish Forum I have wondered why the Polish “foreros” don't recognize the fact that a language has many “registers”, such as “standard language” (‘język literacki’)*, dialects, slang, colloquial everyday speech, and so on. The only classification has been correct/incorrect, which is a gross oversimplification.

* 'język literacki' exists both in written and spoken form.


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## bibax

> So I’m wondering whether it is not originally Polish, or, in fact, even Panslavic. Then, at some time, ‘im… tym…’ must have taken precedence and the frequency of ‘czym… tym’ decreased. Since the construction ‘чем… тем…’is common in Russian, people started to think, ‘czym… tym…’ was a loan translation from the language of Pushkin.


In Czech we also say čím-tím (= czym-tym). It is not a Russian influence at all. It is quite common to use an interrogative pronoun and the corresponding demonstrative pronoun in such constructions in many languages (compare with Latin quot-tot: quot homines, tot sententiae, in Czech kolik-tolik):

co - to;
jak - tak (jak wielki, tak głupi);
jaki - taki;
jaką miarą - taką miarą;

In Czech we can replace "čím-tím" by "o co-o to" (o co větší, o to hloupější). I think that "čím-tím (czym-tym)" is, in fact, an abbreviation of "jakým poměrem - takovým poměrem" or "o jaký kus - o takový kus".

The Polish "im-tym" sounds nonsensical to me if the "im" really means "to them" (like Czech jim, Russian им).


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## inter1908

bibax said:


> The Polish "im-tym" sounds nonsensical to me if the "im" really means "to them" (like Czech jim, Russian им).


So does double negation, so does look using one than more letter for the same sound, etc. But it's a part of our language. It's not meant to always make 100% sense.


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## LilianaB

In fact in Russian it is chyem tyem, sorry for the Latin letters, I do not want to switch my computer again. I think Polish is much different from Czech. I do not even understand Czech well. It is the hardest from all Slavic languages for me to understand. I don't know why this is the case.


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## dreamlike

Ben Jamin said:


> Since I began to participate in the Polish Forum I have wondered why the Polish “foreros” don't recognize the fact that a language has many “registers”, such as “standard language” (‘język literacki’)*, dialects, slang, colloquial everyday speech, and so on. The only classification has been correct/incorrect, which is a gross oversimplification.
> 
> * 'język literacki' exists both in written and spoken form.



You should entertain the possibility that one might be well-aware of the fact that language has many variations (I don't think "register" is the best choice of words here) but has never encountered "czym lepiej" in any of those variations. And that's the case with "czym lepiej", at least as far as I'm concerned.


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## bibax

In Latin it is *quo-eo* (instr.) which a direct equivalent of *czym-tym, чем-тем, čím-tím,* ...

*Quo* peius, *eo* melius. = *Чем* хуже, *тем* лучше. = *Čím* hůře, *tím* lépe. = _Im_ gorzej, *tym* lepiej.

You must admit that the Polish "im-tym" is an exception. The other similar constructions like jak-tak, jaki-taki, ile-tyle, ... are regular (interrogative-demonstrative).


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## LilianaB

Jaki ojciec taki syn. I cannot think about an example with jak tak. Happy New Year to Everyone.


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## majlo

dreamlike said:


> (I don't think "register" is the best choice of words here)


Why should you think so?




Ben Jamin said:


> Are you so sure? What about Old Polish?


Do you know what emoticons are used for?


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## dreamlike

majlo said:
			
		

> Why should you think so?



I thought the word "register" is used only as a name of distinction between formal and informal language. Apparently, I was mistaken.


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## majlo

Merrriam-Webster:

4c: any of the varieties of a language that a speaker uses in a particular social context


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## fandemafalda

涼宮 said:


> *The more I know people the more I love my dog *(By Diogenes of Sinope Greek philosopher)


Hola Suzumiya,
No puedo resistirme a citar el comentario de Mafalda a la frase en  cuestión:
"¿Qué *clase de periodismo es éste*? ¡*Falta la opinión del perro*!"
Saludos y Feliz Año Nuevo.


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## majlo

Where does this quote come from? What's its genesis?


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## kknd

obserwacja: wg mnie „czym-tym” (i zdaje się „jaki-taki”) sugeruje porównanie jakościowe, z kolei „im-tym” – ilościowe.


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