# How can it be tolerated? [Russian 'mat']



## Garbuz

I was really shocked to find that the so-called Russian mat ( Russian swear language), which is legally banned in all public places in Russia, is allowed on this forum. It is even used in thread titles. I'm not sure the moderators' board realizes that the Russian mat is not just any offensive words, it's *a sadistic porno-language*. And it doesn't make any difference under what pretext those words are used - explanation, clarification, meditation, - their effect would always be the same: people who hear or see them would feel humiliated. I suggest that the forum administration reconsider their policy regarding this particular issue and make an amendment to Rule 9 specifically banning the Russian mat from this forum. I hope the community will support me.


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## Cagey

Here is an earlier discussion of this very interesting issue:
Using bad language--curbed?​ It doesn't deal with the word that concerns you in particular, but it does include discussion of other words that have been used to humiliate people in other countries.

You can see that there would be a problem if we were to make an exception for a specific word from a specific country.  Among other things, where would we list these exceptions?


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## Garbuz

How can it be done technically? Easily. Just tell the Russian members that they can't use the Russian mat in their posts, whatever a question may be. You don't have to make a list of taboo words. Any Russian knows them. So does the moderator. S/he will see to it. 

If there is a question 'What is ...?' The answer should be "Sorry, we don't comment on the Russian mat."


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## cuchuflete

I write as a forum member, not as a moderator.

If there is anything that badly disturbs me for its ugliness and terrible effects on learners, it is censorship.  That has a long history of doing much more severe harm than any atrocious word or phrase.

Those who do not want to read questions and answers about terms they find upsetting are welcome to avoid the threads.
If they attempt to impose their values and viewpoints on others who would ask and answer, for whatever motives, then they are trying to practice censorship.


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## Cagey

Garbuz said:


> How can it be done technically? Easily. Just tell the Russian members that they can't use the Russian mat in their posts, whatever a question may be. You don't have to make a list of taboo words. Any Russian knows them. So does the moderator. S/he will see to it.
> 
> If there is a question 'What is ...?' The answer should be "Sorry, we don't comment on the Russian mat."


My point was that to forbid a specific word we have to list it.  Once we put it on a list, more people would be exposed to it than would otherwise be, which seems to be an effect opposite to the one you want.

I will add that I agree with cuchuflete ~ also speaking only for myself and not as a moderator.


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## Garbuz

cuchuflete said:


> I write as a forum member, not as a moderator.
> 
> If there is anything that badly disturbs me for its ugliness and terrible effects on learners, it is censorship.  That has a long history of doing much more severe harm than any atrocious word or phrase.
> 
> Those who do not want to read questions and answers about terms they find upsetting are welcome to avoid the threads.
> If they attempt to impose their values and viewpoints on others who would ask and answer, for whatever motives, then they are trying to practice censorship.



Why was smoking banned from most public places? Because it damages people's health, because it abuses the rights of those who don't smoke. And arguments like if you don't like smoke avoid the places where people smoke, didn't work. It's the same situation here. The language we are talking about is no less poisonous and no less harmful for people's health than smoke. Is it censorship that I suggest? Yes, it is. Civilized society has to protect itself from barbarians.


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## cuchuflete

"Protecting civilized society" is a term and an excuse used by dictators to prevent people who disagree with them from speaking freely.  There world is oversupplied with prisons holding those who have  had the courage to speak what "the authorities" have decided is bad for all of us.  

I thank the thread starter for directing my attention to a thread about terms some would censor.  Now I have learned something about the topic.  I think that's good. I didn't leave the thread with any desire to use those terms, and I don't feel at all poisoned for having become aware of their existence, and the fact that some people do use them.  

There are many such terms in my own language.  If somebody wants to claim that the ugly terms in their language are uglier than those in other languages, and have no equivalents, I'll be glad to step aside and let the person win that bragging contest.  It really doesn't matter.  

Every language, every culture, has its share of things I would choose not to speak or write.  That doesn't mean that I would ever deny myself or any other person the ability to learn of their existence, their meanings, and something of the contexts in which they are used.

Here is a curious afterthought:  The title of this thread is a call for suppression of discussions that are specifically allowed by the Guidelines and Rules of these forums.  That was clearly explained in the thread which led to this one.  Yet we do not censor this thread.  Rather, we have an open discussion about a request for censorship.  Intriguing and ironic, isn't it?


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## Angel.Aura

Hello Garbuz,

As fellow users well pointed out before, I think that vulgar and offensive words are an important part of any language.
I think it's absolutely necessary to know that they exist and to be aware of their meaning. Where else could I ask how and when [not] to use a certain word or expression if not here?
To know bad words does not mean that I will ever use them. Words are too important to be misunderstood.

Smoking kills people, still we can buy cigarettes and smoke. 
But that's not really the point, I'm afraid.

I still can't understand why is this so intolerable to you, I'm really asking out of curiosity.


 Are you afraid that someone may use those words? (It will happen forever anyway)
 Are you afraid that knowing what a certain word means can cause its spreading worldwide? (Vulgarities are not a matter of words and places but a matter of individuals)
 Do you think that those who ask the meaning of those bad words have a hidden agenda? (As I can't really spot one)
 Are you really suggesting that we should ban words? (I would start with racism, starvation, murder, cancer and soooooooooo many others beforehand!! To ban a vulgar word doesn't extinguish vulgarities)
 
User Laura


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## Garbuz

Angel.Aura said:


> Hello Garbuz,
> 
> As fellow users well pointed out before, I think that vulgar and offensive words are an important part of any language.
> I think it's absolutely necessary to know that they exist and to be aware of their meaning. Where else could I ask how and when [not] to use a certain word or expression if not here?
> To know bad words does not mean that I will ever use them. Words are too important to be misunderstood.
> 
> Smoking kills people, still we can buy cigarettes and smoke.
> But that's not really the point, I'm afraid.
> 
> I still can't understand why is this so intolerable to you, I'm really asking out of curiosity.
> 
> 
> Are you afraid that someone may use those words? (It will happen forever anyway)
> Are you afraid that knowing what a certain word means can cause its spreading worldwide? (Vulgarities are not a matter of words and places but a matter of individuals)
> Do you think that those who ask the meaning of those bad words have a hidden agenda? (As I can't really spot one)
> Are you really suggesting that we should ban words? (I would start with racism, starvation, murder, cancer and soooooooooo many others beforehand!! To ban a vulgar word doesn't extinguish vulgarities)
> 
> User Laura



Hi Laura,
Let me answer you questions first.

1) No, I'm not afraid "that someone may use those words." I just know that using such words is not right, whatever the pretext is. That's why I'm against it.

2)"Afraid" is not the right word. I'm concerned. It's a misconception to think that actions are important and words are not. Words program a person's mind, and his actions are the implementation of that program. Everybody knows that language is a powerful manipulating tool. 

3) Yes, they do. And they don't necessarily realize that.

4) No, I am not suggesting that. The words that you listed belong to the standard vocabulary stock. They aren't vulgar. They adequately denote things we have to deal with in our life, no matter how ugly those things are. The words I'm against cultivate an ugly outlook on life, they affect your perception of reality, they destroy your personality and make an ugly, cynical and psychopathological person of you.    

Now, will you, please, tell me why do you think that "vulgar and offensive words are an important part of any language" and why is it "absolutely necessary to know that they exist and to be aware of their meaning"?


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## Angel.Aura

Garbuz said:


> Now, will you, please, tell me why do you think that "vulgar and offensive words are an important part of any language" and why is it "absolutely necessary to know that they exist and to be aware of their meaning"?


Because I want to be 100% sure to avoid using it!


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## Garbuz

cuchuflete said:


> "Protecting civilized society" is a term and an excuse used by dictators to prevent people who disagree with them from speaking freely.  There world is oversupplied with prisons holding those who have  had the courage to speak what "the authorities" have decided is bad for all of us.



Well, anything can be interpreted in any way. But this is not the issue. Would you allow porno films to be shown in prime-time? Would you allow fascist ideology to be propagated on TV? Would you allow destructive religious cults to schools and colleges? Why not? Because no person in their right mind would allow that. But isn't it censorship? So why are you against censoring this wonderful forum for the language which pours garbage into the people's minds.


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## cuchuflete

Garbuz said:


> Well, anything can be interpreted in any way. But this is not the issue. Would you allow porno films to be shown in prime-time? Would you allow fascist ideology to be propagated on TV? Would you allow destructive religious cults to schools and colleges? Why not? Because no person in their right mind would allow that. But isn't it censorship? _*So why are you against censoring this wonderful forum for the language which pours garbage into the people's minds.*_



I seem to have a much greater respect than you do for the minds of those who participate in these forums.  I believe that the great majority of people who ask and answer questions here are reasoning adults, perfectly capable, on their own, of deciding
what to do with the information they receive here.  

I'll be blunt:  I do not need any other individual to decide on my behalf what is or is not
an acceptable word or phrase to learn about.  I don't believe the other foreros do either.  

If I were to seek guidance about the usefulness or acceptability of a term in a language other than my own, I would seek it from someone with some objectivity and an academic approach to language.  I would avoid censors and those on a crusade to protect me from what they consider evil, pernicious, and contaminating by mere exposure.

I have been exposed to many ugly words and spoken and written ideas.  I have not embraced them, or the thoughts behind them; to the contrary, I have chosen to oppose such things.  I trust my fellow forum members to make their own decisions about what to do with unpleasant words and ideas.


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## Cagey

In the English Only forum we get real questions from people who have heard a word and either don't realize that it is offensive, or think it may be offensive, but aren't certain whether it is or how offensive it might be.

Discussion of these words serves a useful purpose, and helps well-intentioned people avoid inadvertently saying something that might be hurtful to other people.

This is _just one_ reason I would insist on our being able to discuss any word and its meaning in the forum.

Added: This responds to just one of the points raised, specific to the purposes of this forum.  cuchuflete posted a fuller reply to the issue in general as I was writing it.


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## panjandrum

I knew nothing at all about _mat _until I came across this thread.
Looking around, I find that _mat_ is used extensively.
Despite the public ban, mat is used by Russians of all ages and in all  social groups, with particular fervor in male-dominated military and the  structurally similar social strata.
...
It was first introduced into literature in the 18th century by the poet Ivan  Barkov, whose poetry, combining lofty lyrics with brutally obscene  words, may be regarded as a forerunner of Russian literary parody.
Wikipedia​It seems that there are very widely varying attitudes to _mat_.


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## Valeria Mesalina

I would never have known what it was, nah, that such a slang existed if this thread had not been opened...

Isn´t it ironic?


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## Frank06

Hi,

To answer your question "How can it be tolerated?": Well, very easily.

1. WR is not Russia. In WR, we pledge alligiance to the WR Rules/FAQ, not to the Russian constitution;
2. As you said yourself, it's *language*, which happens to be the topic of WR. 
Okay, vulgar language. Okay okay, incredibly vulgar language. But language nevertheless and that means discussing it is not the same as "allowing porn movies on prime-time", "allowing destructive religious cults", "promoting tobacco", or any other off the wall comparison. 
3. In the original discussion (дохуя (Vulgar) no members were harmed. 
(if you'd consider this to be a deliberate sadistic porn pun, then please replace the word "members" by "posters". See also point 4);
In the original thread, the word was not used in a gratuitous way and the term was discussed in a serene and adult fashion (again, no pun intended). At least, up to a certain point.
4. As far as I can see and contrary to what you predicted/stated, not one member of WR was affected in their perception of reality, no member's personality was destroyed, nobody turned into an ugly, cynical and psychopathological person. At least not more (or less) than before you did your utmost best to bring this interesting topic of "mat" to our attention.


What I find difficult to tolerate, and even offensive, dear Garbuz, is that you seem to suggest that _we_ cannot handle this kind of things. Are you doubting our mental faculties? Do you really think that we need anybody's "protection" (read censorship) because we'd be mentally vulnerable or even mentally instable to such an extent that simply reading a pornographic term would turn us in psychopathological cases?
By the way, this is almost like magical thinking. A discussion on walking pneumonia doesn't turn me into a patient with pneumonia, a discussion on Certified Fraud Examiner doesn't turn me into a certified fraud examiner, neither into a fraud. A serene discussion on a vulgar, pornographic term, no matter how extreme, doesn't turn me nor anybody else into an pornomaniac.


Can we please decide ourselves, without anybody's aid or censorship, what we choose to find offensive, intolerable etc.? 
Can we please be allowed to make a distinction between a discussion of an offensive *word* and the *activity* it refers to (which is a Linguistics 101 topic)? 
In short, can we please be treated as adults who are here on WR to discuss language issues, *any* language issue? 
Please?

Frank
(member)


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## Loob

Garbuz said:


> I hope the community will support me.


As you can see, Garbuz, the community is not supporting you.

Let me add my voice to those who believe it important that discussion of offensive words and phrases is permitted here.


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## Ynez

Garbuz, I can imagine that you would like those words to disappear from the forum because you think they hurt some people's sensitivity. From what you say, it seems they have a very strong impact on Russian minds. But they would go on being used. Here at least they are analysed from a linguistic point of view, and that way they might lose their strong impact, and people could get bored with using them when they no longer create a strong reaction in others.

But I don't really know...


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## cubaMania

There is a difference between discussing a term and using a  term.

Of course WR would not allow the use of offensive language, i.e.  you cannot use it in your posts or direct it at somebody or something.   The use of offensive language may cause harm, but I cannot credit  the idea that simply seeing an offensive term in print causes harm.  That notion makes no sense to me.  It is just words; it becomes  offensive only in use.

I agree with the WR policy of allowing open discussion of all language,  including terminology which would be objectionable and prohibited by WR  rules if instead of being discussed it were being used.

And, in my view, we discuss these terms not for the purpose of reducing their impact or making them less attractive; we discuss them for the sake of knowledge.  We want to know about language, its history, what it means, and how it is used, period.


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## Garbuz

It looks my message is like the voice of a person calling in the wilderness. I respect your right to have an opinion, but the thing is that seeing you do not see, and hearing you do not understand. You keep saying one and the same thing: "we are discussing it, we are not using it", "it is for us to decide what to read". Let me tell you, there is something  that always happens no matter whether you deny it or not: "You reap what you sow, more than you sow and later than you sow", period.


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## cuchuflete

> We can never be sure that the opinion we are endeavoring to stifle is a false opinion; and if we were sure, stifling it would be an evil still.


~John Stuart Mill, _On Liberty_, 1859




> The fact is that censorship always defeats its own purpose, for it creates, in the end, the kind of society that is incapable of exercising real discretion.


~Henry Steele Commager




> Censorship reflects society's lack of confidence in itself.  It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime.


~Potter Stewart




> The dirtiest book of all is the expurgated book.


~Walt Whitman




> Assassination is the extreme form of censorship.


~George Bernard Shaw




> Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever.


~Nadine Gordimer



> Censorship is the height of vanity.


~Martha Graham



> Censorship is to art as lynching is to justice.


~Henry Louis Gates



> Censorship, like charity, should begin at home, but, unlike charity, it should end there.


~Claire Booth Luce




> Censorship creates and perpetuates ignorance.  Ignorance breeds misunderstanding at best, hatred at worst.


~cuchuflete


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## Pedro y La Torre

I won't pretend to understand the intricacies of Russian mat but let me take another English example.

In America, the word cunt is seen as highly offensive, indeed many Americans refer to it as the "C-word" and would probably be appalled to hear it used in everyday conversation.

In Ireland, on the other hand, the word is regularly used by a large proportion of the population and, in its proper context, is not seen as being offensive in the slightest. Indeed, the American view of it often provokes amusement.

Should we ban the word "cunt" being used because _some_ find it a vulgar, reprehensible word? Of course not. It is part of the language, and on a language forum it can be discussed, dissected etc.

The same, I believe, is true of Russian mat. Like it or not, there are areas of Russian society where it is regularly employed and hence it merits discussion here.

How can one learn if one cannot ask questions?


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## Garbuz

cuchuflete said:


> ~John Stuart Mill, _On Liberty_, 1859
> 
> Henry Steele Commager
> 
> Potter Stewart
> 
> Walt Whitman
> 
> George Bernard Shaw
> 
> Nadine Gordimer
> 
> Martha Graham
> 
> Henry Louis Gates
> 
> Claire Booth Luce
> 
> [/FONT]~cuchuflete



They didn't like censorship because they knew they didn't need anybody to censor them, they had a censor in their own minds. That censoring spirit told them what they could or could not write.


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## cuchuflete

Pedro y La Torre said:


> How can one learn if one cannot ask questions?



That is an astute question.  

The real and would-be censors have decided that there are things that _they_ know about but that _we_ must not learn.  They prefer to do our thinking and deciding for us.  "Trust us," they say, "We know what's good for you to know and not know."  

I decline their offer.


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## panjandrum

Well Garbuz, I hope that you are happy now.
As a result of your campaign, many more people now know about the thing that you are so determined to suppress.  And the more you protest that we shouldn't know about it, the more people will become curious.  Keep it up


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## mhp

This is fascinating. I had no idea such a thing existed. Reading _Russian joke: Taboo vocabulary_ in Wikipedia, I realized that some of the best jokes I know in Spanish are in fact poor translations from the Russian originals---for example, this one.


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## Garbuz

One of my collegues, a Russian, once said: "I've never been interested to know what exactly those words mean. I know it's something very bad. Whenever I hear somebody say them, I have a strong feeling of disgust." (BTW, she is a doctor of philology). And it's a natural reaction to "mat" with a lot of decent people here. I can't imagine a situation when it could become the subject of linguistic analysis in class. Actually, there's nothing to analyze in it from the linguistic perspective. 

You say that I've made "forbidden fruit" of "mat" by suggesting that it should be banned from the forum. Well, that wasn't my intention, of course. On the other hand, if somebody gets excited every time they find something that stinks, there isn't much you can do about it. However, I don't want to be like that serpent in the Garden of Eden that said "You surely will not die".

Those who ardently deny any censorship, I am sure, will find support and understanding among all kinds of sexually deviant individuals including pedophiles.


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## mhp

Fascinating, indeed! Garbuz, I don't mean to be disrepectful, but it is obvious, but to most casual observer, that you are reaching for straws. What is next? Pedophilia? Oh wait, you already used that one.


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## ampurdan

Garbuz said:


> ( Russian swear language), which is legally banned in all public places in Russia



If I'm not mistaken, that's what Russian written law says:

"1. Disorderly conduct, that is, violation of public order in the form of *open disrespect of the public accompanied by foul language* in public places, abusive pestering of the people or destruction or damage caused to other people's property, -  
 shall involve the imposition of an administrative fine in the amount of five to ten minimum wages or an administrative arrest for a period up to fifteen days."

I may be wrong but I would be very surprised to learn that Russian law-interpreters take serious linguistic discussion of foul language to be open disrespect.

Now, "exchanges about translation, word usage, terminology equivalency and other linguistic topics" are the "core business" of these forums.

In fact, the wording of the Russian rule is quite similar to our rule against use of foul language here in Wordreference, which allows civilized and respectful discussion of foul language. 



Garbuz said:


> It looks my message is like the voice of a person calling in the wilderness. I respect your right to have an opinion, but the thing is that seeing you do not see, and hearing you do not understand.



I think people have understood you message very well, most do not simply agree with your point of view. That does not make them blind or deaf.



Garbuz said:


> You keep saying one and the same thing: "we are discussing it, we are not using it", "it is for us to decide what to read". Let me tell you, there is something  that always happens no matter whether you deny it or not: "You reap what you sow, more than you sow and later than you sow", period.



People responding to requests about foul language, if done according to our rules, are sowing awareness. 

I don't think awareness of bad things is evil. Unawareness of bad things may pose some problems or lead to undesirable situations in real life.



Garbuz said:


> On the other hand, if somebody gets excited every time they find something that stinks, there isn't much you can do about it.



Discussion of foul language does not imply any kind of excitement about it or any support of its use. In fact, these forums encourage our members to warn about the social reaction some words may cause. 

If someone gets excited about it, it's not really anyone else's business, provided that they do not directly annoy other people with it (and by that I only mean using foul language against other people or harassing).



Garbuz said:


> Those who ardently deny any censorship, I am sure, will find support and understanding among all kinds of sexually deviant individuals including pedophiles.



Perhaps some pedophiles do that, perhaps some other pedophiles prefer to publicly protest against civilized discussions of foul language. That does not make censorship or any other measure any better or worse.


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## Nunty

Moderator's note:

We have reached the point of endless repetition without adding anything new, so I am going to close this thread with two comments.

1. WordReference Forums rules and philosophy require respect and polite discourse, while allowing discussion of any and all terms.



> *Keep your language clean and decent.*
> Discussion of offensive words and phrases is permitted, but the  conversation  must remain respectful and serious. You may discuss offensive words, but  you may  not use them with malicious intent.
> Nicknames and signatures that we feel are inflammatory, vulgar,  promotional, or  rude will be removed.


(The emphasis is mine.)

This is not going to change in the foreseeable future.

2. The Comments & Suggestions forum is not the place for a broader discussion about the impact of words on thoughts and behavior or about censorship or any of the very interesting issues that have been raised in this thread. The Culture Café is the right place for such discussions. Please feel free to open a thread about _one_ of these topics in that forum if you want.

Thank you for your participation, everyone. This thread is now closed.

Nunty


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## mkellogg

I know the thread is closed, but as the administrator, I wanted to add my own note.

1. You might want to discuss this with the moderators of the Russian forum, if you haven't already.  I am surprised that no native Russian speakers joined this discussion.  I would have liked to hear other opinions.
2. In some forums we will hide an offensive title using asterisks like "s**t" "f**k" while they are on the first page.  Once the offensive terms move off the from page, they are retitled so that they can be found in the dictionaries.  Maybe this is appropriate here.  I don't know.
3. I hope that, in discussion of these terms, it is pointed out how offensive some people perceive them to be. 

Mike


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