# Soft т in infinitives (pronunciation)



## VCH250

Hi,

I generally don't have any problems with soft consonants when I remember to make them.

But the two stops-*-Т/Д *are not ideal. I tend to have a little too much friction. I tend to make a soft* ць or дзь*. I'm really not sure how to get rid of/ reduce this fricative element. I will try to post a recording later today.

But I was wondering if anyone has any advise for making a soft *ць* (yes there is no such sound **) into a normal ть.

A speech therapist (we worked on ж, ш) told me once that it won't really be noticed in the flow of speech. But nonetheless I want to fix it.

By the way, I've been told that I say *ть* properly in words like новость, нефть, задумчивость, etc. And my soft т is good in тя, тё, те.


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## Vovan

VCH250 said:


> By the way, I've been told that I say *ть* properly in words like новость, нефть, задумчивость, etc. And my soft т is good in тя, тё, те.


So then, in what positions do you have difficulty pronouncing the soft [т/д]?
Could you give us some sample Russian words?


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## Klick2dude

I am not sure how we can help you with pronunciation by typing letters here. I think, the best way to learn it is having a native speaker nearby.. Or at least watching educational videos.


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## VCH250

Vovan said:


> So then, in what positions do you have difficulty pronouncing the soft [т/д]?
> Could you give us some sample Russian words?



In Verbs   брать, думать... So basically where there is no vowel.

I just though that some of the people here are really knowledgeable about the mechanics of speech. I learned to make soft sounds through books and descriptions, not from native speakers. I can't copy  but I can follow directions.


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## Klick2dude

Well, I will try, at least. When you pronounce English "t" you use a tip of your tongue. Try to pronounce "t" moving your tongue a little bit further, I can say - 0.5 centimetre or so. So that the tip must touch your teeth. And... Try to say ть!  
... I tried


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## Vovan

VCH250 said:


> In Verbs  брать, думать... So basically where there is no vowel


But it's the same sound as in _нефть_, for example.
If you trust those who told you that you pronounced it well, you might stop worrying.

Generally, pressing the tip of the tongue on the hard palate or, on the contrary, lowering it in the direction of the lower teeth should do the trick (i.e. eliminate the so-called _цеканье _and _дзеканье_).
But please remember that these phenomena are intrinsic of Russian pronunciation to a degree, so don't eliminate too much (as in French, for example).


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## Maroseika

VCH250 said:


> But I was wondering if anyone has any advise for making a soft *ць* (yes there is no such sound **) into a normal ть.


By the way, soft ц really exists, but not in standard Russian (namely in some Russian dialects and in in Belorussian).
As for your question, I'd suggest you moving to ть from ти, with which you say you have no problem. Pronounce дати, брати and other infinitives, gradually shortening the last vowel until you come to pure ть. Short stop on т may help.


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## Eirwyn

VCH250 said:


> But the two stops-*-Т/Д *are not ideal. I tend to have a little too much friction. I tend to make a soft* ць or дзь*. I'm really not sure how to get rid of/ reduce this fricative element.


Many speakers (especially younger ones) pronounce these sounds as affricates as well. Why would you need to get rid of that?


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## Maroseika

Eirwyn said:


> Many speakers (especially younger ones) pronounce these sounds as affricates as well.


I'm afraaid I've never heard anything like that from the Russian natives, no matter the age. Would you please give any proof of your assertion? Maybe we are talking about different things? Some terminology confusion?


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## Sobakus

Maroseika said:


> I'm afraaid I've never heard anything like that from the Russian natives, no matter the age. Would you please give any proof of your assertion? Maybe we are talking about different things? Some terminology confusion?


The soft stops are certainly affricated (ць/дзь-like) in almost all varieties of Russian and I personally hear little difference between the Russian soft ть/дь and their Belarusian counterparts in most pronunciations (the difference becomes apparent only in speakers who have a more open /е/ than in Russian). Here's how the non-affricated дь/ть (found in some rural Russian accents) sounds like: györgy, ďakovať

So yes, OP, I'm not quite sure what you're trying to fix as from your description it sounds like you're doing it right. Until we hear it, we can't really suggest anything.


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## Maroseika

Sobakus said:


> The soft stops are certainly affricated (ць/дзь-like) in almost all varieties of Russian and I personally hear little difference between the Russian soft ть/дь and their Belarusian counterparts in most pronunciations


I'm a bit confused now. Belarussian examples are evidently start from affricates, but what Russians counterparts you mean? The problem we are talking about is pronunciation ць instead of ть in the end of infinitives. Have you ever heard this from the natives?
And do you mean ть in делать and платье are different?


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## VCH250

Ok, so here is a recording— Vocaroo | Voice message


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## Vovan

Your [т']-s are perfectly fine, VCH250!!!


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## Maroseika

VCH250 said:


> Ok, so here is a recording— Vocaroo | Voice message


Your ть may sound not ideal (accent-free), but this is evidently ть. I cannot discern any trace of ць. Just for comparison, here is like Belorussian ць sounds.


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## VCH250

Maroseika said:


> Your ть may sound not ideal (accent-free), but this is evidently ть. I cannot discern any trace of ць. Just for comparison, here is like Belorussian ць sounds.



How is it different from a normal Russian ть?) I'm just curious.)

I know quite a lot about phonology as I've spent the last 4 months reading books, etc on the topic of Russian phonology. You can give a technical explanation if you like.


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## Sobakus

Maroseika said:


> I'm a bit confused now. Belarussian examples are evidently start from affricates, but what Russians counterparts you mean? The problem we are talking about is pronunciation ць instead of ть in the end of infinitives. Have you ever heard this from the natives?
> And do you mean ть in делать and платье are different?


The Russian counterparts of дзь/ць are дь/ть and in most accents their phonetic spaces largely overlap before vowels (although in some extremely affricating Belarusian accents they fall outside the phonetic space of the Russian phonemes). When no vowel follows, however, they're literally identical - extremely affricated - in both languages apart from those rare Russian accents that pronounce them as in Slovak. The ть in быть = ць in быць, it's the exact same affricate.


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## Sobakus

VCH250 said:


> Ok, so here is a recording— Vocaroo | Voice message


The affrication is as it should be, but it's a hard affricate, i.e. a hard Ц. You need to palatalise it, that is press the middle of the tongue to the roof of the mouth.


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## Maroseika

VCH250 said:


> How is it different from a normal Russian ть?) I'm just curious.)
> 
> I know quite a lot about phonology as I've spent the last 4 months reading books, etc on the topic of Russian phonology. You can give a technical explanation if you like.


I'm afraid I can't. I just hear difference. Normal Russian ть and your own ть are evidently different from the Belorussian ць.


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## Maroseika

Sobakus said:


> The ть in быть = ць in быць, it's the exact same affricate.


I agree they sound equally in your example. I don't know what's that - influence of Russian and hence just orthographical ць in this Belorussian word or something else. But earlier I linked a Belorussian word with real soft ц, to show the difference between phonetical ть and ць. The difference seems to me quite distinct.


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## Sobakus

Maroseika said:


> I agree they sound equally in your example. I don't know what's that - influence of Russian and hence just orthographical ць in this Belorussian word or something else. But earlier I linked a Belorussian word with real soft ц, to show the difference between phonetical ть and ць. The difference seems to me quite distinct.


I don't think there's any difference besides recording quality - this is called sibilance. If you compare the Russian/Belarusian final soft t to the one in Slovak, I think you will instantly recognise that it's very strongly affricated in North-West Eastern Slavic. The Slovak/Southern Eastern Slavic sound is muffled in comparison.


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## Maroseika

Sobakus said:


> If you compare the Russian/Belarusian final soft t to the one in Slovak, I think you will instantly recognise that it's very strongly affricated in North-West Eastern Slavic. The Slovak/Southern Eastern Slavic sound is muffled in comparison.


According to Русская Грамматика -1980, there are only two affricates in Russian - ц and ч. And I definetely cannot discern and trace of ц in the end of Russian infinitives.
So maybe it's worth to specify what exactly "affricated" sound means? Does it mean an affricate or an affricate-like sound or anything else? Is there any difference between ть in делать and платье?


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## Awwal12

Maroseika said:


> By the way, soft ц really exists, but not in standard Russian (namely in some Russian dialects and in in Belorussian).


/т'/ ~ [ц'] exists throughout Russian, the only difference here is the intensity of the fricative element. The dialectal map is already quite telling: it is all covered in spots which don't correlate much with either geographical factors or other isoglosses - meaning there is a measurement uncertainty at play. Even though there are areas with a stronger assibilation (like around Tver) and dialects where it apparently doesn't exist (most proper North Russian dialects, including those which have [ц'] as a realization of/ц/ or /ч/), generally Russian speakers rather poorly differentiate [ц'] from [т']. So, in most instances of Belarusian speech (where the respective sound is traditionally described as an affricate) most Russian speakers will recognize [ц'] as /т'/ and won't even notice anything unusual (in my youth I personally was pretty surprised after seeing the lyrics of songs by Песняры in their written form). Some Russian philologists go as far as to plainly describe russian /т'/ and /д'/ as affricate-like sounds.

P.S.: Another characteristic example are Ukrainians who sometimes hypercorrectly imitate the standard Russian pronunciation replacing /т'/ with Ukrainian /ц'/ (in Ukraine they are mostly surrounded by Ukrainian Russian, which is another story; suffice it to say, it is full of subtle Ukrainian influences on the phonetic level).


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## Sobakus

Maroseika said:


> So maybe it's worth to specify what exactly "affricated" sound means? Does it mean an affricate or an affricate-like sound or anything else? Is there any difference between ть in делать and платье?


By "affricated" I meant that the consonant isn't a stop, like, say, the hard т/д, but that the initial stop is followed by a fricative element, involving a much longer release time (the time the consonant is "held"). This element isn't phonemic, unlike with ц (that is you can pronounce the soft stop only and it will register as the same phoneme), and it also differs based on phonetic environment (strongest when utterance-final, absent before homorganic consonants) and speaker. The non-Russian language descriptions of this phenomenon aren't lacking, which frankly isn't surprising as non-native phoneticians don't have the phonemic/orthographic bias that we do and perceive foreign sounds more keenly.

Here's the top Google result on the topic, very much adequate: Sergey Knyazev, "Affricated Dental Plosives in Russian"


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## VCH250

Sobakus said:


> The affrication is as it should be, but it's a hard affricate, i.e. a hard Ц. You need to palatalise it, that is press the middle of the tongue to the roof of the mouth.



I've found this super interesting. Some Russians will hear ц, because there is no such sound as ць. But I assure you I do all the soft sounds correctly enough (and my speech therapist and GF say it's soft)--so this is just your bias  Some Russians hear this as ц while others as ць. Like the brains says "no way ц can be soft".

Anyway, I have fixed the problem and now it sounds exactly like the Russian ть--which turns out does have friction but it's more of a muffled sound that results from pressing the area directly behind the tip of the tongue to the teeth ridge harder in a different direction to what I was doing before.

In a word--you push out against the teeth ridge and not down so like this ---> and not like this \. Pushing out reduced the fricative element and my GF says I do it correctly now, whereas before it was too fricative.

Here are two English language references that describe the phenomenon. One from 1944, and the other from 1969 (Jones and Ward)

Imgur


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## VCH250

It seems that in some cases softness is related not by the position of the tongue (as in и), but by other elements, like friction. All in all, I feel like the ть in verbs is changing into something else and in 100 years we won't have the current sound.


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## Sobakus

VCH250 said:


> I've found this super interesting. Some Russians will hear ц, because there is no such sound as ць. But I assure you I do all the soft sounds correctly enough (and my speech therapist and GF say it's soft)--so this is just your bias  Some Russians hear this as ц while others as ць. Like the brains says "no way ц can be soft".
> 
> Anyway, I have fixed the problem and now it sounds exactly like the Russian ть--which turns out does have friction but it's more of a muffled sound that results from pressing the area directly behind the tip of the tongue to the teeth ridge harder in a different direction to what I was doing before.


If you read the above discussion you will see that I'm arguing exactly in favour for the ubiquitousness of that soft ць pronunciation - however, yours wasn't one. I can absolutely assure you that in your recording there's a lack of palatalisation, but not lack of friction - however, it occurs at the tip of the tongue, which means there's no proper contact with the palate. It's an underaffricated hard ц, no more no less. What you describe as "the area directly behind the tip of the tongue" is the area touching the hard palate, so hopefully you're doing it right (but, again, I only trust my own ears ).


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## Awwal12

As for the recording, in part (!) of the examples there is a certain palatalization, but the whole articulation is still largely wrong, as long as we speak about Russian /т'/ (and, likely, dialectal variants of the Russian affricates as well). I have a feeling that you try to pronounce the consonant as an apical one, while it should be rather dorsal, with the very tip of your tongue touching your lower teeth, while the frontal part of the tongue's upper surface makes the entire articulation, bending and touching the frontal part of the alveola. In fact, the position is almost the same as for [с'] (which certainly is not apical either).

It may be useful to keep in mind that Russian articulation is generally characterized by the 'lazy' tip of the tongue (which is unlikely to raise unless it's absolutely necessary) and complicated shapes which the upper surface of the tongue tends to take.


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