# national pride



## Seana

Hi all,

If you could choose only one thing/person/phenomenon which caused your national pride in all history of your country what would you choose then.
Have you got some feeling what could be called national pride?
Does such emotion still exists or maybe nowadays is little bit passe?
Perhaps we could discuss these choices whether they are coinciding with assessments of others.

My choice is *Fryderyk Chopin.*


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## elpoderoso

Maybe Shane Horgan scoring a try at Twickenham, but in general i think i can only be proud of people i know personally.


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## emma42

My choice is William Shakespeare.  He has enriched our language and culture in such a way that, often, we do not even realise what we have said originated in some way with him.

Of course, I know it is only an accident of birth that I was born in the same country as WS.

As for a "phenomenon" - the National Health Service.


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## LouisaB

emma42 said:


> My choice is William Shakespeare. He has enriched our language and culture in such a way that, often, we do not even realise what we have said originated in some way with him.
> 
> Of course, I know it is only an accident of birth that I was born in the same country as WS.
> 
> As for a "phenomenon" - the National Health Service.


 
I agree with Emma. Shakespeare, without question.

For your other questions, I'd say I personally do have some national pride, but it's hard to express it these days. 'Healthy competitiveness' even in sport is suppressed in many of our schools, because the feeling is that to praise one person above another is to degrade the other. In the same way, to support your country is seen as denigrating other countries. 'Patriotism' is seen as a word which almost equates to 'bigotry'.

England used to be (probably) the most arrogant country in the world. Over the last century, we've become the opposite. We apologise for everything and are quick to criticise ourselves to forestall anyone else doing so. We have many things in our past of which to be ashamed, but what makes me sad is that there is a present tendency for us to forget the things in our past (and present) that should also make us proud. 

However, I suspect there may be a backlash on the way. My fear is that since it's largely championed by BNP hooligans demanding massive restrictions on immigration, it will take us right back to our worst excesses, and then we'll have to start apologising all over again...!

I do apologise for offering up such massive generalisations, but I think this is a fair description of a general tendency.


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## LouisaB

Seana said:


> Hi all,
> 
> If you could choose only one thing/person/phenomenon which caused your national pride in all history of your country what would you choose then.
> Have you got some feeling what could be called national pride?
> Does such emotion still exists or maybe nowadays is little bit passe?
> Perhaps we could discuss these choices whether they are coinciding with assessments of others.
> 
> My choice is *Fryderyk Chopin.*


 
Sorry, Seana, I forgot to comment on your own assessment. I think Chopin is a terrific choice. But for a phenomenon, I'd consider perhaps the Uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto - badly armed men,women and children holding out all that time against tanks and machine guns. I'd be very, very proud if that was my country.

Louisa


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## Paulfromitaly

As an Italian, my choice is Leonardo da Vinci: he changed the history with his inventions.


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## emma42

Yes, Chopin and the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, both amazing phenomena.

You are right, Louisa.  Many British/English people (Guardian readers especially, perhaps [me included]), have a tendency to avoid any statements of national pride, particularly bearing in mind the Empire.  

I still have a problem with national pride.  Why should I be proud just because Shakespeare is the same nationality as I am?  I will try to think of a word that means "a feeling of happiness at a connection with something admirable".  That sounds a bit like "pride", doesn't it?!  But without the element of arrogance.  This is where German would come in handy.

ps  Leonardo da Vinci - quel homme!


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## cuchuflete

emma42 said:


> Yes, Chopin and the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, both amazing phenomena.
> 
> Why should I be proud just because Shakespeare is the same nationality as I am?  I will try to think of a word that means "a feeling of happiness at a connection with something admirable". Try "Tribalism".  It's an extremely common phenomenon.


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## emma42

Cuchu, "tribalism" is the same thing as national pride, but smaller, no?


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## cuchuflete

Some folk have expansive senses of tribe.  I'd like to think that mine is the human race, so that I might take pride in Cervantes, Lispector, Cortázar, and Shakespeare as well as George Washington Carver and E.E. Cummings.


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## emma42

Excellent point.  I, then, will also claim kinship with Shostakovich and Al Jolson.


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## Fleurs263

John Lennon for obvious reasons and Mrs Lawrence, as in mother of murdered Stephen Lawrence, who has fought on in the face of racism and injustice. Given her personal loss, she is a shining light.


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## Conrado Herrera

Seana said:


> Hi all,
> 
> If you could choose only one thing/person/phenomenon which caused your national pride in all history of your country what would you choose then.
> Have you got some feeling what could be called national pride?
> Does such emotion still exists or maybe nowadays is little bit passe?
> Perhaps we could discuss these choices whether they are coinciding with assessments of others.
> 
> My choice is *Fryderyk Chopin.*


 
Poland has much to be pride worldwide
Faustina Kowalska, John Paul II.
Regards Seana;
Regards


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## LouisaB

emma42 said:


> I still have a problem with national pride. Why should I be proud just because Shakespeare is the same nationality as I am? I will try to think of a word that means "a feeling of happiness at a connection with something admirable". That sounds a bit like "pride", doesn't it?! But without the element of arrogance. This is where German would come in handy.
> 
> ps Leonardo da Vinci - quel homme!


 
You've really made me think with this one. I've a horrid feeling you're quite right. Pride in anything other than yourself doesn't seem to make much sense when you think about it. I could be proud of what my children did, because that's indirect praise of myself, but why on earth should I be proud of what my sister did? Or my school? Or my county? Or my country? Help, I can see my own long-cherished beliefs heading inexorably down the drain.

Perhaps, as you suggest, it's the phrasing. People do say 'I am proud to be associated with something' and that at least makes sense. In Utopia, of course, we would all be proud of what everyone did, because, as cuchuflete says, our tribe is ultimately the human race.

Oh dear. Does this mean I can't ever wave the flag at the Last Night of the Proms again?  

Louisa


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## LouisaB

Conrado Herrera said:


> Poland has much to be pride worldwide
> Faustina Kowalska, John Paul II.
> Regards Seana;
> Regards


 
Yes indeed. I also just remembered Lech Walesa, Cardinal Wyszynski (sorry if that's spelt wrong) - and Marie Curie.

Still, personally I think Chopin's the best choice.

Louisa


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## Kenya

This is a really interesting discussion. It's true that we can identify with the human race, and I definitely want to post my admiration of Chinua Achebe and Edward Said... As far as Americans go, it's sort of ironic that my heroes tend to be the people who have fought against some societal injustice. Martin Luther King Jr, for sure! It's hard to declare him as a symbol of national pride when so many things were definitely going wrong with the nation to make his actions so powerful.

Anyway, cool thoughts, everyone.


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## Victoria32

Seana said:


> Hi all,
> 
> If you could choose only one thing/person/phenomenon which caused your national pride in all history of your country what would you choose then. *Sir Ernest Rutherford (nuclear physicist.) *
> Have you got some feeling what could be called national pride? Not really
> Does such emotion still exists or maybe nowadays is little bit passe?
> Passe I think, and nowadays here it is all about sport!
> Perhaps we could discuss these choices whether they are coinciding with assessments of others.
> 
> My choice is *Fryderyk Chopin.*


I'd go for *Marie Curie* along with all the others mentioned - Poland has a lot to be proud of!


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## emma42

Dear Louisa, of course you may wave your flag.  But you have to tell yourself you are indulging in "associative happiness", not pride.  Now I'm off to lunch with Big Brother.


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## Etcetera

My choice is Peter the Great. I consider him to be the greatest Russian leader of all times, and above all, he founded St. Petersburg.


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## übermönch

Hey Seana, I wanted to start that thread!  

*Karl Liebknecht *for being the only Reichstag deputé to vote against declaring war in 1914 + *Kurt Tucholsky, Brecht *and other critics of the Prussian ways; however, just as Martin Luther King, they all they can hardly be called _national _heroes, they hardly acted in _"national interests"_, but rather in _people's_. Just as in England, nationalism is a synonym of bigotry over here; I guess it's a trend all over EU. For good .

That said I'm a tribalist, I admire our very own Grafengeschlecht Erbach who united Odenwald, kicked the Spaniards and Swedes out retaining neutrality and tolerance during the 30 years war, conquered the Breuberg scum and subjugated the arrogant Fürstenauers.  I voted for their noble highness during last communal elections.


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## LouisaB

Kenya said:


> As far as Americans go, it's sort of ironic that my heroes tend to be the people who have fought against some societal injustice. Martin Luther King Jr, for sure! It's hard to declare him as a symbol of national pride when so many things were definitely going wrong with the nation to make his actions so powerful.
> 
> Anyway, cool thoughts, everyone.


 
That's a really good point, Kenya. I was trying to work out why I wasn't so sure about the suggestion of Fleurs263 of 'Mrs Lawrence' for England, and I think you've hit it. I admire her so much, but if she were made an icon of English national pride it would be like celebrating everything that's rotten and evil in our society (ie racism and injustice) not what's best. Martin Luther King has a better case, I feel, because he never ever preached vengeance or hate. He didn't just speak for Black Americans, he spoke for _all _Americans. He spoke for all humankind. Easier for him, I'm sure than Mrs Lawrence, whose son was so callously murdered, and whose case was so disgustingly ignored by racist police officers, but MLK was never interested in blame, nor did he seek to attack those whose only association in the crimes committed against blacks lay in the fact that their skin was white. To be fair, I suspect Mrs Lawrence wasn't either, but her legal representatives have unfortunately done it for her, and a number of innocent (as well as guilty) people have suffered since as a result. That's the tragedy of getting involved with the media.

But Martin Luther King didn't look to the past, he was interested in the future. The 'I have a dream' speech is one that I can't hear or see without crying. _That_ is what it means to say our tribe is the human race. He is one of my all-time, forever heroes, and I don't even stop to think what nationality he was.

Still, it clarifies for me what (in my personal opinion) we should be looking for:

I suspect our icons need to be dead, so we can have a true historical perspective on what their achievements were. Other than Mrs Lawrence (on whom the media jury is still out) I'd also mention the only recently dead Todd Beamer for the USA. To me, he's wonderful. But I know there are now media hints at conspiracies, and accusations of forged tapes, and there's also the issue of media exploitation by the poor man's widow. Time will (I hope) settle these things. My own hope is that both these people will emerge clean and intact from the stock-pot of history. But it is _too soon_ to say.

I suspect they need to be people who represent _all_ of their country, and not only a section of it. For me, that would rule out Lincoln (another really great man, but unfortunately seen also as the representative of one part of the USA against another). It would also rule out William Wilberforce for England, because although he championed the abolition of slavery here (long before the USA by the way!! ) his mere existence points out only too clearly the culpability of many British people who _did_ have financial interests in this most abhorrent of trades.

I suspect they probably need to be people (or things) that other countries would recognise as being also part of that bigger, greater tribe of the human race.

And that's what I most love about this thread (thank you, Seana, for starting it). It actually encourages us to say _nice_ things about each other's countries, instead of griping. 

I'll give a few to kick start this end of things.

For Germany, Beethoven by a mile. Beethoven at the first performance of the Ninth, having to be physically turned to face the applause of an audience he would never, ever hear, because he wrote one of the greatest pieces of music in the whole world after he was deaf...

For Sweden, Raoul Wallenberg. Great, great, great, great man, who put humanity and the cause of it, above every other consideration, including his own life. I'm really jealous he wasn't English (which is possibly another criterion for each of us to adopt)

For the USA, surely the phenomenon has to be the moon-landing. What nation (if they're truthful) doesn't wish they'd done that?

For France, I'm just stuffed. They have far too many, and it's not fair. Writers? Voltaire, Molière, Camus, ten thousand others? Composers? Don't even go there. I can maybe live without Debussy and Ravel (just) but Saint-Saens and Gounod are life and death to me. So is Fauré. Soldiers, politicians? Er, what about Napoleon? He'd have run rings round Wellington if he hadn't been let down by his generals. Entertainers? Let's see anyone beat Piaf. Leaders of the people? I've always had a soft spot for Danton, myself, which has (of course) absolutely _nothing_ to do with having been once portrayed by the greatest living actor of any nation, who is Gerad Depardieu. Who happens also to be French....
I have an idea. Let's boycott the French from this. They're too damn good at everything... 

I shall stop before I dissolve in a postive welter of sentiment...



emma42 said:


> Dear Louisa, of course you may wave your flag. But you have to tell yourself you are indulging in "associative happiness", not pride. Now I'm off to lunch with Big Brother.


 
Dear Emma, you're going to have to patent that phrase 'associative happiness' fast. It's terrific, and I fully intend to nick it myself at every possible opportunity... 

Louisa (holder of record for longest and most self-indulgent post in the forum)


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## ireney

I have multiple problems in answering the first one. I feel enormous admiration for many personalities and some of the are Greek. Having a long history it's hard to actually choose one person or one event I am especially fond of. Same goes for choosing one person or event I am especially ashamed of. You see I dislike looking only at the bright pages of history. Any history, local or not.

I'm not proud per se for anything that I wasn't involved in. That does not mean I am not proud to be Greek. For all that is Greece and for me being part of all that is Greece. What Greece is has to do with its past too. Good and bad. In that sense I am proud of what others have done.
The thing is, I don't think there's any country its citizens shouldn't be proud of belonging to (these prepositions will be the death of me and those who read my posts).

So, am I proud Euripides was Greek? No, not really proud. I love his works but the same goes for the writings of i.e. Baudelaire. And there's also Alexander the Great. Should I be proud of what he did or not? I mean yes, he was Great but go all the way to India? What for? I don't think we had lent them the lawn-mower and they hadn't brought it back.  Byzantine Empire? Did some great service to the world. After doing it some disservice. And it didn't exactly had the greater good of mankind to mind and I wasn't alive then.We did great in WWII. We weren't the only ones were we? And what if we didn't? And we REALLY messed things up afterwards. See my point?

In general the emotion still exists. Unfortunately quite often it's not  the kind of pride that makes people want to immitate the good acts of our illustrious predecessors. It's the kind of pride that makes one sit on other people's laurels, an act that he thinks allows him to look down upon others. It's the kind of pride (nationalism if you wish; this poor word, "pride" has been blamed for to many faults belonging to other feelings) that made a former minister (if I remember correctly he was minister of Foreign Affairs at the time; if not he did become one later on for all that is good!) say,referring to Western Europeans, in a burst of populism,  (note the personal pronouns) "When we were building Parthenons they were eating acorns (always regarded in Greek culture as mast, pig food)". That kind of nauseating, embarassing "pride".


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## Paulfromitaly

_Question: If you could choose only one person who caused your national pride in all history of your country what would you choose. 
_


Fleurs263 said:


> John Lennon for *obvious reasons*



Excuse me, but I'm not that bright: would you please explain which are those *obvious reasons ?* I'm kinda curious to know them... Thanks.


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## Paraíso

Seana,
talking about Polish I deeply admire journalist Ryszard Kapuściński, an example for all journalists and, probably, as he's sometimes called, "the best reporter of the world".
As a citizen of the world, I would say Gandhi.
As a Spanish, Cervantes, for creating Don Quixote.
As a Catalan, Antoni Gaudi, for Sagrada Familia and those amazing buildings...
...Difficult to choose just one.

Saludos!


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## luis masci

I have a problem with national pride, because first of all I think I was born in Argentina just for accident; besides I tend to think there is not pride for things I wasn’t involved in. 
So I was sick seeing how my fellow citizens gained the streets and shouted like a crazies after a success in some football match. Still there are here many Maradona advocated who think he is a kind of god and deserve honor because shared “happiness”  among the people. 
I always have seen it as a total absurdity.
--------------------
Corrections will be always welcome


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## Frank06

Hi,
It's weird that people who were born even before the country came to existence are chosen as an exponent of that country, as van Beethoven and Germany... 

As for Belgium, who else than the most famous Bruxellois, Manneke Pis?

Groetjes,

Frank


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## itxaro

Fleurs263 said:


> and Mrs Lawrence, as in mother of murdered Stephen Lawrence, who has fought on in the face of racism and injustice. Given her personal loss, she is a shining light.


A shining light, maybe, but are you sure about 'one person who caused your national pride in all history of your country'? Talk about the influence of the media...

If I had to vote for one Briton then it would possibly be Isaac Newton, the father of modern physics.


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## maxiogee

Politically, I wouldn't have voted fror this guy, but then I didn't have a vote when he was in office. 
Irish history and folk-lore makes much of our "patriot dead", guys who died for Ireland. In a generation which saw service in the 1916 Rising and the War of Independence and the Civil War there was one man who saw the future, as it could be - and strove all his political lifetime to bring it about.

*Séan Lemass* was our Taoiseach (Prime Minister) from 1959 to 1966 and held various ministries prior to that - Minister for Industry & Commerce, Minister for Supplies, and Tánaiste (Deputy Taoiseach).

He is generally regarded as the architect of modern Ireland and as having laid the foundations for our current tiger economy. A man of apparently boundless energy and great social vision he was one of the few real politicians who emerged from the militants who had fought the military campaigns.

His one flaw, in my eyes, was that he rejected the Treaty with Britain. The state had sent a team of negotiators to Britain and had given them full powers to conclude the best treaty they could get. What they got was short of an fully independent Ireland and Éamon de Valera, the man who had sent the team, rejected the result - even though it had the support of the majority in the parliament, and later the support of the electorate. Lemass backed de Valera and took up arms against the new nation. I cannot, as a pacifist and a democrat, accept that.

That is partly to blame for why I cannot easily express what "national pride" means in Ireland today, and why I am uncomfortable with the concept. Since the mid-1960s 'national pride' was almost totally hijacked by the armed republican movement which, in its fight with the British, claims direct descent from the men of 1916 and the rejection of the Treaty. Southern Irish people who don't yearn for a united Ireland find it difficult to focus their pride on anything particular.
The concept of a "united Ireland" is the great, unattained _sine qua non_ of a truly free Ireland. We have almost come to believe that without unity and freedom we don't have much worth celebrating.
I disagree, but find it difficult to say so. People may have voted to drop the constitution's claim to Northern Ireland, but they don't want to hear people saying that they don't want unity.


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## don maico

As a child I had dreafil national pride , not about the country I grew up, Argentina, in but the one I felt I should have been born. I use read books about our "great' Empire, about our military victories and I would look at atlases to see the areas coloured pink denoting our dominions. Military defeats I regarded as shameful including, oddly , 1066 and the Norman invasion. Even to this day it grates.
I only ever wanted to own British made products and regarded anything "foreign" with disdain. All nonsense of course and now I consider myself a citizen of the world and am mighty glad that the internet came along to dissolves boundaries and enable me to learn about others.I dont care where my consumer products come from and am quite happy to own Japanese ,American or any other nation's products .
 The world is my home and I like to think I can travel anywhere and feel as if I belonged.The only thing I feel nationalistic about now is --------------------sport! England get your act together and play some decent rugby will you!
Next year I am travelling for the third time in a row to Argentina a country close to my affections. This is something somewhat proud about - on of a small number of AngloArgentines residing in the UK. Neither fish nor fowl , neither one or t'other and I like it that way


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## emma42

What a lovely and honest post, Don Maico.

I feel "associative happiness" in relation to the BBC (especially Radio 4), and the Guardian and a couple of other news publications.  When I see how difficult it is in some other countries to obtain properly investigated and reported news, I feel extremely fortunate to have access to such things.


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## Tao

Seana said:


> Hi all,
> 
> If you could choose only one thing/person/phenomenon which caused your national pride in all history of your country what would you choose then.
> Have you got some feeling what could be called national pride?
> Does such emotion still exists or maybe nowadays is little bit passe?
> Perhaps we could discuss these choices whether they are coinciding with assessments of others.
> 
> My choice is *Fryderyk Chopin.*


1. Van Gogh
2. No, not really or not so much. I speak more English than Dutch and I feel like more of an international person than a Dutch one.
3. I'm certain there are still people around here who feel some kind of national pride. I don't notice them that much, though. I mostly notice them when football is going on and the national team is playing.


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## Lemminkäinen

Seana said:


> If you could choose only one thing/person/phenomenon which caused your national pride in all history of your country what would you choose then.


Our bloodless "revolution" in 1905, when the Storting declared that King Karl Johan no longer could be the King of Norway in a dependent clause of a dependent clause, causing Norway to finally be an independant country, after five centuries of unions.



> Have you got some feeling what could be called national pride?


Yes, I have. I feel proud when I look down the parade street on our Constitutional Day and see tens of thousands of happy children waving flags and waving at the royal family. 
I realise, however, that it is an irrational feeling; why should I be proud of things I have had no influence over? When we win a football match, why should I be happy when I didn't play?  



> Does such emotion still exists or maybe nowadays is little bit passe?


It definitely still exist to various degrees in various countries and various individuals.



cuchuflete said:


> Some folk have expansive senses of tribe.  I'd like to think that mine is the human race, so that I might take pride in Cervantes, Lispector, Cortázar, and Shakespeare as well as George Washington Carver and E.E. Cummings.


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## don maico

emma42 said:


> What a lovely and honest post, Don Maico.
> 
> I feel "associative happiness" in relation to the BBC (especially Radio 4), and the Guardian and a couple of other news publications.  When I see how difficult it is in some other countries to obtain properly investigated and reported news, I feel extremely fortunate to have access to such things.


Thank oyu . I must admit I enjoy the BBC as well!

Hogarth - for me Englands greates ever painter
Jerusalem - a stunning song that pought be our anthem
Last night at the proms - gives me goosebumps and other flags are welcome too.
Glastonbury festival -awesome occasion. Three days of fun music and frolic , nud or no mud and great atmosphere too.


France --- awesomely beautiful country with so much to offer . Lot to be proud about they have -- trouble is they are!


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## itxaro

Just a point about English people not being able to feel proud of their country due to being the supposed "baddies" of history:

Remember that English working-class people (i.e. the vast majority) have been one of the most exploited and oppressed groups of people in Europe ever.

Recommended reading: "The slaves of England" ...can't remember the author at the moment.


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## invictaspirit

My national hero is Shakespeare because he did unbelievably beautiful things with the English language and also with ideas.  I think the national phenomenon I would choose would be, rather predictably, the first two years of World War 2, especially after the Fall of France and the Battle of Britain, when the UK fought alone to stop the Nazi invasion.  I am not an excessively nationalistic or militaristic person, but I believe that our country and Europe would perhaps be very different today if Germany had invaded the UK in 1940.

I feel something more like national love or national fondness rather than total pride.  Like a lot of others said, my being English, British and European are accidents of birth.  It's the same with my family.  But I love my family and am very fond of my country.  My patriotism isn't really about winning wars and flags and the monarchy.  It's about the land itself, humour, ways of doing things.  Above all it is about the feeling I get when I come home after a long time away.  We must all get that sometimes...whatever our country?  That 'No-one does it quite like us and it's so good to be home' feeling.  It's not about museums or history so much with me.  

The most happy, patriotic and tearful moment I ever had was when I returned from a year working in America.  I like America and Americans, but it wasn't for me and I felt homesick a lot.  My flight home landed at London Heathrow very early one morning when it was not totally light.  As the plane was just about to touch down I could see a white British Airports Authority service van speeding along a service road quite near the runway and could see the glow of the guy's cig and the folded newspaper on the top of his dashboard.  There was nothing at all 'British' about this...airport workers in all countries drive vans, may smoke, and carry that day's newspaper in their van with them.  But it had an extraordinary effect on me.  It made me very happy and tearful and glad to be home.  Sometimes when Immigration can see in your passport you have been living away for a long time, they greet you back to Britain.  The immigration officer at Heathrow said "Welcome home, Mr Spirit" and that set me off all over again.  

My patriotism is a fondness and familiarity, not really tub-thumping nationalism.


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## don maico

itxaro said:


> Just a point about English people not being able to feel proud of their country due to being the supposed "baddies" of history:
> 
> Remember that English working-class people (i.e. the vast majority) have been one of the most exploited and oppressed groups of people in Europe ever.
> 
> Recommended reading: "The slaves of England" ...can't remember the author at the moment.


I think Gandhi related to the ordinary English working classes, didnt he?


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## don maico

invictaspirit said:


> My national hero is Shakespeare because he did unbelievably beautiful things with the English language and also with ideas.  I think the national phenomenon I would choose would be, rather predictably, the first two years of World War 2, especially after the Fall of France and the Battle of Britain, when the UK fought alone to stop the Nazi invasion.  I am not an excessively nationalistic or militaristic person, but I believe that our country and Europe would perhaps be very different today if Germany had invaded the UK in 1940.
> 
> I feel something more like national love or national fondness rather than total pride.  Like a lot of others said, my being English, British and European are accidents of birth.  It's the same with my family.  But I love my family and am very fond of my country.  My patriotism isn't really about winning wars and flags and the monarchy.  It's about the land itself, humour, ways of doing things.  Above all it is about the feeling I get when I come home after a long time away.  We must all get that sometimes...whatever our country?  That 'No-one does it quite like us and it's so good to be home' feeling.  It's not about museums or history so much with me.
> 
> The most happy, patriotic and tearful moment I ever had was when I returned from a year working in America.  I like America and Americans, but it wasn't for me and I felt homesick a lot.  My flight home landed at London Heathrow very early one morning when it was not totally light.  As the plane was just about to touch down I could see a white British Airports Authority service van speeding along a service road quite near the runway and could see the glow of the guy's cig and the folded newspaper on the top of his dashboard.  There was nothing at all 'British' about this...airport workers in all countries drive vans, may smoke, and carry that day's newspaper in their van with them.  But it had an extraordinary effect on me.  It made me very happy and tearful and glad to be home.  Sometimes when Immigration can see in your passport you have been living away for a long time, they greet you back to Britain.  The immigration officer at Heathrow said "Welcome home, Mr Spirit" and that set me off all over again.
> 
> My patriotism is a fondness and familiarity, not really tub-thumping nationalism.


Nice post and one I can relate to . I had similar sentiments when I flew back too Argentina for the first time in 35 years. Visiting my old school ( St Johns) and the street I spent my childhood in  was quite emotive.


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## Victoria32

luis masci said:


> I have a problem with national pride, because first of all I think I was born in Argentina just for by accident; besides I tend to think there is not  should not be pride for things I wasn’t involved in.
> So I was sick seeing how my fellow citizens gained took to the streets and shouted like a crazies after a success in some football match. Still there are here many Maradona advocateds/fans who think he is a kind of god and deserves honor because shared “happiness”  among the people.
> I always have seen it as a total absurdity.
> --------------------
> Corrections will be always welcome


A few corrections, Luis... I hope you don't mind?

Regarding Maradona, I named my son for him in 1986 (his brother's idea, but just as a middle name...  )

Have you heard of the Maradona cult, who claim to actually worship him? It was on TV, but I suspect it is just a joke... 

VL


----------



## LouisaB

invictaspirit said:


> My national hero is Shakespeare because he did unbelievably beautiful things with the English language and also with ideas. I think the national phenomenon I would choose would be, rather predictably, the first two years of World War 2, especially after the Fall of France and the Battle of Britain, when the UK fought alone to stop the Nazi invasion. I am not an excessively nationalistic or militaristic person, but I believe that our country and Europe would perhaps be very different today if Germany had invaded the UK in 1940.
> 
> I feel something more like national love or national fondness rather than total pride. Like a lot of others said, my being English, British and European are accidents of birth. It's the same with my family. But I love my family and am very fond of my country. My patriotism isn't really about winning wars and flags and the monarchy. It's about the land itself, humour, ways of doing things. Above all it is about the feeling I get when I come home after a long time away. We must all get that sometimes...whatever our country? That 'No-one does it quite like us and it's so good to be home' feeling. It's not about museums or history so much with me.
> 
> The most happy, patriotic and tearful moment I ever had was when I returned from a year working in America. I like America and Americans, but it wasn't for me and I felt homesick a lot. My flight home landed at London Heathrow very early one morning when it was not totally light. As the plane was just about to touch down I could see a white British Airports Authority service van speeding along a service road quite near the runway and could see the glow of the guy's cig and the folded newspaper on the top of his dashboard. There was nothing at all 'British' about this...airport workers in all countries drive vans, may smoke, and carry that day's newspaper in their van with them. But it had an extraordinary effect on me. It made me very happy and tearful and glad to be home. Sometimes when Immigration can see in your passport you have been living away for a long time, they greet you back to Britain. The immigration officer at Heathrow said "Welcome home, Mr Spirit" and that set me off all over again.
> 
> My patriotism is a fondness and familiarity, not really tub-thumping nationalism.


 
Perfect post, invictaspirit. These are my feelings too - but now you make me feel much better about it.

Louisa


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## emma42

Nice one, Invictaspirit.  I am filling up as I write.


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## heidita

Paulfromitaly said:


> _Question: If you could choose only one person who caused your national pride in all history of your country what would you choose. _
> 
> 
> 
> Excuse me, but I'm not that bright: would you please explain which are those *obvious reasons ?* I'm kinda curious to know them... Thanks.


 So am I.


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## Seana

Hi again,
Many thanks for all your nice words about Poland.
In my opinion whatever you would say about national pride I don't believe that there was no moment in your life with such national identity feelings what could be called as a primitive tribal identification.
When I come back home after long trip and the plane is going down I feel heart flutter and I am so excited seeing the fields 'chessboards' of my country. 
To be honest I see other countries just through its famous people and music - not stereotypes or bad/noble military behaviour in past history. I don't know why but I just see it in that way. 
If you don't mind I am going to give some things/persons that come to my mind at first when I am thinking about your countries. As person from bit distant country my choices wouldn't be the same as yours.

Austria - Mozart - Spanische Reitschule 
Danmark - Andersen - social politic
France - many but maybe Baron de Montesquieu ( Piaf is my favorite better say her voice) and wherever you look everywhere there are 'tonnes of beauty' 
Spain - Manuel de Falla - El Escorial
Italy I agree Leonardo da Vinci-Roman law and of course tonnes of beauty 
Greece Alexander the Great - Ancient Greece as contributor of present-day civilization - Greek philosophy 
Germany - Beetoven - gorgeous tase of bear - and maybe Mercedes... 
Norway - Edvard Grieg - Peer Gynt
Sweden - Olof Palme *-* Nobel Prize 
Finnland - Sibelius 
Russia - Пётр I Алексеевич - Teatr Bolszoj
Ireland - James Joyce and many mnay others- *music* - Irish whisky 
UK - William Shakespeare - British sense of humor - castels - long great history


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## HUMBERT0

Of the Spanish speaking world, I feel proud of two Spanish Protestants Casiodoro de Reina and Cipriano de Valera, for their courageous and  invaluable translation of the Bible to Spanish in the XVI century even at great peril to their lives from the inquisition, thus making it accessible to the average person.
 
In my homeland I’m proud of Benito Juárez the only native-American to become President of the country, he lead what we call the Reform in the XIX century, he suppress clerical and military privileges, and we owe him the separation of church and state. He is still rememberd for his saying _“Entre los individuos, como entre las naciones, el respeto al derecho ajeno es la paz”_ _“Among individuals, as among nations, the respect for the rights of others is peace”_.


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## natasha2000

My choice. Nikola Tesla. In some way, if it weren't for him, we wouldn't be able to have all those interesting discussions...


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## 1Euro

A strong stance for national pride is minoritary in Spain. Nationalisms and the appropiation of "Spanishism" by the Francoist regime made millions of Spaniards extremely suspicious of demonstrations of national pride -including myself. 

A Spanish flag in your car or wour watchwrist is commonly seen as a far-right demonstration (although not always is, but it's perceived that way). In fact, national flag and symbols are rare to see, other than in state buildings or events.

Shouting "¡Viva España!" (long life Spain!) out of very rightist or military environments will easily spark laughs, cold glances, murmurations and, sometimes, an insult. If it's a foreigner who does, it is accepted with a condescendent smile, out of sympathy.

Best regards.


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## djchak

Um, as an ignoramus yank who knows nothing about soccer/football... 
can I ask...what is the point of all this? 

Can't we get back to the original topic?

From my point of view, there is nothing wrong with national pride, provided it isn't used for jingoistic/nationalist (my nation is better than yours) beliefs and actions.

All nations are different, and there is always something to learn about other nations, as well as your own.


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## natasha2000

For those who think that a drug addict cannot be a national pride.
click
click
Amogn those people you'll see names as Churchil, Freud, General Nelson... Ia can also add Jim Morrison, Jannis Joplin, or maybe some who still perform - some of the Rolling Stones' members... 
There are also some other names such Goehring, who for sure cannot be a national pride, but not for being a drug addict, but for other things he did in his life... 

We are talking here about the people whose professional achievements can make their nations to be proud of them. Maradona was an excellent footbal player, period. Argentinians are proud of him because of that. 

The man I am proud of, Nikola Tesla, was a genious in his field, but in private life a complete freak. For each meal he needed 16 paper tissues to clean each piece of cutlery, for example. But I am proud of his great mind, not of what he was or did in his private life.

I think that we should use more trustful and more serious sources than "Salsa Rosa". I mean, really...


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## danielfranco

I had avoided this thread like the plague, but somehow or other I find myself right smack in the middle of it, dragged here kicking and screaming... Don't ask how, it happens sometimes here in the WRF's...

First, what could I possibly say about "national pride"?
Didn't I abandon my country of birth for one I liked better? Oh, yes I did!
And since when did sports became a participatory sport? I mean, really: those guys do what God made them for and get paid a bizi-gazillion dollars for doing it. It's not as if they're depending on their nation to draw strength and ability from them. I mean, if when the athlete moves to a different country he will still be great, won't he? And if the athlete were to change shirts in the middle of the game, he'd still kick ass, wouldn't him?
I find it hard to agree with _anyone_ in this thread. I mean, the guys they're talking about, well, they coulda been born just about anywhere. It's not as if the spirit of the nation miraculously impregnated the mother of the celebrity in question, is it? Their abilities and skills were given by God, or Allah, or Bhudda, or Gaia, or Eugenics, or Whoever.

I think it's more important to be proud of your family and the ones you love, and if that love is strong enough, then it will be something to be proud of, no matter where in this God-forsaken world you live.

So there.






[As for Heidi's signature, many agree I'm very very very happy  ]


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## maxiogee

don maico said:


> Maradona is a flawed individual



… aren't we all?


----------



## Pedro y La Torre

maxiogee said:


> … aren't we all?



Precisely my point. 

In fairness to this heidita person, perhaps she lives in a utopian world where everyone picks flowers and signs nursery rhymes all day. Thus, she cannot comprehend how someone who has fallen into life's pit falls can become a good example. However, I think the rest of us in the real world have to define what a true role model is.

For me it's someone, who through adversity and setbacks (INCLUDING DRUG ADDICTION), overcomes their struggles and sets example.

Maradona (amongst others) for me is good role models because he clearly states (in interviews and his autobiography) where and how he went wrong and that drug addiction is a path not to be followed. On the plus side he's brought so much happiness to many people through his footballing exploits and is a magnificent example of how hard work and dedication can make you a great football player, but there obviously are pitfalls.

Everyone has seen the trouble he and others has got into because of drugs, what sensible person could think such a path is an enviable one?

If you want a person who lived a perfect life choose Jesus or Buddha as your role model (both very worthwhile people), if you however choose modern day celebrities you must accept their weakness as well as their strengths.


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## heidita

danielfranco said:


> IDidn't I abandon my country of birth for one I liked better? Oh, yes I did!


 
So did I , Danny, so did I!


> It's not as if the spirit of the nation miraculously impregnated the mother of the celebrity in question, is it? Their abilities and skills were given by God, or Allah, or Bhudda, or Gaia, or Eugenics, or Whoever.


 
And so is the badness of mankind. No good only remembering one particular person of one particular nationality. One finds good and bad in all nationalities and among all kind of people. 



> I think it's more important to be proud of your family and the ones you love, and if that love is strong enough, then it will be something to be proud of, no matter where in this God-forsaken world you live.


Yo creo que voy a tomar como ejemplo a seguir a mi joya.  ¿Se puede? Una persona que no se enfada nunca (unlike his loving wife!), siempre optimista, siempre de buen humor (como ha demostrado en más de un hilo), y siempre pendiente de las personas a las que quiere. Eso es importante, no ser celebre. 
Bueno, para mí lo es.  




> [As for Heidi's signature, many agree I'm very very very happy  ]


 
You are a genious, that's what you are!


----------



## chung

Seana said:


> Hi all,
> 
> If you could choose only one thing/person/phenomenon which caused your national pride in all history of your country what would you choose then.
> Have you got some feeling what could be called national pride?
> Does such emotion still exists or maybe nowadays is little bit passe?
> Perhaps we could discuss these choices whether they are coinciding with assessments of others.
> 
> My choice is *Fryderyk Chopin.*


 
1. Nothing. I feel that my birth and national affiliation are accidental, and if it weren't for certain decisions made by my ancestors, I may or may not have been born somewhere else.

2. See 1. Legally I have my allegiance to my country, and would be duty-bound to serve it as a citizen. It goes no further than that and I find it offensive to harp on old injustices and use it to justify future revenge.

3. Yes, national pride still exists and I'm usually indifferent to nationalism and national pride. However, I have a very low opinion of those who take them too far (for my tastes) and abuse them to imply biological, cultural or technical superiority and justify their actions of dominating or depriving their neighbours or even everyone else in the world. My attitudes are related to 1. where I believe that birth and national affiliation are accidental.


----------



## danielfranco

chung said:


> 1. Nothing. I feel that my birth and national affiliation are accidental, and if it weren't for certain decisions made by my ancestors, I may or may not have been born somewhere else.
> 
> 2. See 1. Legally I have my allegiance to my country, and would be duty-bound to serve it as a citizen. It goes no further than that and I find it offensive to harp on old injustices and use it to justify future revenge.
> 
> 3. Yes, national pride still exists and I'm usually indifferent to nationalism and national pride. However, I have a very low opinion of those who take them too far (for my tastes) and abuse them to imply biological, cultural or technical superiority and justify their actions of dominating or depriving their neighbours or even everyone else in the world. My attitudes are related to 1. where I believe that birth and national affiliation are accidental.



Please re-read honorable Chung's post again with me. It's worth it. It states precisely what I so ineptly tried to express. Thank you for your words.


----------



## maxiogee

danielfranco said:


> Please re-read honorable Chung's post again with me. It's worth it. It states precisely what I so ineptly tried to express. Thank you for your words.



I agree.
It's all 'accident of birth' stuff.
Chung and danielfranco can live in my house any time and together wen can design "I am a citizen of the world" passports and donate them to like-minded people.


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## natasha2000

On one hand, I agree with Chung's words. On the other, I really don't see much sense in denying of what one is. While my sense of nationality does not include derogatory attitude towards others, I think its ok. We are NOT all the same, meaning that we have been born and raised in different cultures, and that is the beauty of a humankind. If qe were all the same, this world would be such a boring place.
Forgetting completely of nations means exatly this.I am a citizen of the world, yes, but I am also a Serbian, and I am proud of it. This for sure does not imply that I am better or worse from anyone in this world. Likewise, I can be proud of people like Nikola Tesla or Ivo Andric, but also ashamed of people like Miloshevic. I am just what I am, and I don't run away from it.


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## caballoschica

I haven't jumped in this thread because well....I pretty much agree with chung...I hadn't really thought that birth and national affiliation are accidental, but they really are.  It is a decision by your ancestors..
...Although you are raised in a specific culture.  Maybe you're proud of that, and thus, your nation. Frankly, I'm not.  

I really don't have a feeling of national pride.  There is patriotism, and there is blind patriotism.  The latter goes way too far.  My wardrobe reflects my opinion.  I have a couple fourth-of-July t-shirts (they aren't obvious, normally just small flags on the shirt so I can say, look, I'm wearing something for the fourth of July...) , but otherwise, I avoid red, white, and blue combinations.   It looks too patriotic.  People get really obnoxious sometimes.  Maybe during some sporting events it's fine...Mind you, when I watch tennis, I usually cheer against the Americans.  It's probably not a great thing to do, but I don't like most of them as people. Even during Davis Cup I find it hard to cheer for the Americans and even cheer against them sometimes.  Like against Russia, I cheered for Russia.  I know, I'm a horrible citizen, but I do vote and do my homework before I vote.


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## PandaX

Too many things to choose just one item. I believe my country has accomplished more in its short history than any other country that exists, or has ever existed.

I have plenty of national pride. I consider myself a patriot and I know the difference between patriotism and nationalism. That said, I have no problem saying my country and culture is superior to others in certain aspects. I can easily say America is superior to China because we allow dissent. 

I gladly and proudly display my flag in and outside of my home. I am also not offended if someone from another country feels great pride in their country.


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## maxiogee

PandaX said:


> I gladly and proudly display my flag in and outside of my home. I am also not offended if someone from another country feels great pride in their country.


 
Flags and other symbols of belonging are generally displayed to identify us to others.
Who are you trying to inform by displaying your flag *in* your home?

In our homes we tend to display items which we venerate or worship or which tell us something about ourselves.

I would feel rather uneasy to see a flag displayed inside someone's home.


----------



## PandaX

maxiogee said:


> Flags and other symbols of belonging are generally displayed to identify us to others.
> Who are you trying to inform by displaying your flag *in* your home?
> 
> In our homes we tend to display items which we venerate or worship or which tell us something about ourselves.
> 
> I would feel rather uneasy to see a flag displayed inside someone's home.



Who are we, as Americans, identifying ourselves to when we hang the flag outside throughout the country. I see no difference.

Why would it make you feel uneasy?


----------



## maxiogee

PandaX said:


> Who are we, as Americans, identifying ourselves to when we hang the flag outside throughout the country.


 
I don't know.
We Irish don't see the need to hang the Irish flag outside our homes. Nor do the French, Spanish or Italians, it seems to me.

I suppose that your impulse is to identify yourselves, as individuals, as belonging to the same 'club' as your neighbours. It may be a 'settler' thing, I don't know. 
I feel that it has tinges of McCarthyism about it - I'm a fine and upstanding citizen! Why would wish to proclaim that? SHoudl it not be taken for granted?





PandaX said:


> Why would it make you feel uneasy?


Public displays of patriotism are something I'm wary of, private ones are even more unsettling.
In identifying ourselves by way of flags and symbols we automatically exclude those who don't identify with them, or who hold them in much less esteem.


----------



## PandaX

maxiogee said:


> I don't know.
> We Irish don't see the need to hang the Irish flag outside our homes. Nor do the French, Spanish or Italians, it seems to me.
> 
> I suppose that your impulse is to identify yourselves, as individuals, as belonging to the same 'club' as your neighbours. It may be a 'settler' thing, I don't know.
> I feel that it has tinges of McCarthyism about it - I'm a fine and upstanding citizen! Why would wish to proclaim that? SHoudl it not be taken for granted?
> 
> Public displays of patriotism are something I'm wary of, private ones are even more unsettling.
> In identifying ourselves by way of flags and symbols we automatically exclude those who don't identify with them, or who hold them in much less esteem.



I don't see my regard to my flag as a way of saying I am a good citizen. I doubt most Americans would even care what others think about their desire to fly their flag. It's a personal thing that no one is pressured into.

I think many Europeans have been conditioned to be wary of patriotism and displays of such due to the world wars and fascism of the past century. I think it's a shame and a terrible overeaction. 

On your last point, do you lessen your capacity to show love and affection for others by showing your love and affection for one?


----------



## maxiogee

PandaX said:


> I think many Europeans have been conditioned to be wary of patriotism and displays of such due to the world wars and fascism of the past century. I think it's a shame and a terrible overeaction.


Maybe we realise more than others that patriotism is outdated?





PandaX said:


> On your last point, do you lessen your capacity to show love and affection for others by showing your love and affection for one?


I fail to see the connection - one's country is (by and large) an accident of birth. The love of one's life is a whole other ball game involving choice and opportunity.

It is not in the showing of love and respect for one - to that one - that one would do that, it is in the showing of it to others that one makes public where one's values lie.


----------



## PandaX

maxiogee said:


> Maybe we realise more than others that patriotism is outdated?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I fail to see the connection - one's country is (by and large) an accident of birth. The love of one's life is a whole other ball game involving choice and opportunity.
> 
> It is not in the showing of love and respect for one - to that one - that one would do that, it is in the showing of it to others that one makes public where one's values lie.



Why do you believe it is outdated? 

Just because it is an "accident of birth," as you say, doesn't mean one can not be proud of their country. Displaying a flag, a most obvious symbol of a country, is merely one simple way of displaying that pride.

It doesn't matter what it is you are loving. In your remarks you said, and I'm paraphrasing, that you diminish the capacity to care for other things by showing that you care for one particular thing. That only makes sense if we are only capable of loving and appreciating one thing or one person.

With all due respect your last remark is quite cynical in nature.


----------



## cherine

*Guys,*
*If you're so much interested in taking this flag conversation any further, please do it in its thread (or another related one, if you know of any), not in this one which is about "National Pride".*

*Thanks *


----------



## Lada

Hi everyone!

I just want to say that I'm proud to be Russian and I LOVE my homeland. I travelled a lot in my huge beautiful country and travelled abroad...It's difficuelt to explain but when you sail on boat along great river Volga, it's so wonderful feeling inside that you go, go further and your homeland doesnt have end, it's endless and increadibly beautiful, it's like a planet...

I like other countries as well, but I _like_ them, not _love._


----------



## maxiogee

PandaX said:


> With all due respect your last remark is quite cynical in nature.



You say that as if cynicism were a bad thing.
I don't deny being a cynic. (such a one as to know that when people preface a remark with "with all due respect" they rarely mean it!) 





PandaX said:


> It doesn't matter what it is you are loving. In your remarks you said, and I'm paraphrasing, that you diminish the capacity to care for other things by showing that you care for one particular thing. That only makes sense if we are only capable of loving and appreciating one thing or one person.


If that's the only way that you can read my remarks then you misunderstand me totally and there is little point in dragging this any further off topic.





PandaX said:


> Why do you believe it is outdated?


It died a little when the trans-global corporations began to demand even greater loyalty than people give their countries;
It died a little when people saw the utter futility of the patriotism which had been whipped up in them to get them into the trenches of the First World War;
It died a little when people saw the anti-communist tag stuck on people who were merely not thinking the same way as other people.
It is a dying art this patriotism - it has been killing my fellow islanders for generations - and a fat lot of good it has done any of they who died or they who lived.

It received a fatal wound when Wilfred Owen found an eager audience who reacted sympathetically to his lines

My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,  
The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est  
Pro patria mori.​
I cannot post more than four lines of it, but you'll find the rest easily if you don't know it already.

National pride is not a thing worth killing for, all the less is it worth dying for. 
Surely it is better to live for one's country than to die for it?


----------



## Pedro y La Torre

What is Ireland, Spain, Argentina? They are ideas created by the human mind. If I was living on the Brazilian border and tomorrow I became part of Argentina would I then take pride in Buenos Aires rather than Brasilia? "National" pride is nonsensical IMO.


----------



## invictaspirit

*Maxiogee*

There is a (characteristic) great deal of sense in your last post, but I would take issue with your last point, because I think it is an all-too-easy one to make.

Owen wrote a particularly brilliant poem about a particularly ridiculous and ghastly war. There are very many millions who would agree with the point he made, and a great many of them would disagree with him with regard to the next war.

I also feel that the founding of an independent Ireland was built on the sacrifice of men's lives. Would you have delayed this independence by decades to have spared these lives? I am tempted to answer impertinently, as a foreigner, and as a citizen of the then aggressor. But it is not my right so to do.


----------



## PandaX

maxiogee said:


> You say that as if cynicism were a bad thing.
> I don't deny being a cynic. (such a one as to know that when people preface a remark with "with all due respect" they rarely mean it!)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If that's the only way that you can read my remarks then you misunderstand me totally and there is little point in dragging this any further off topic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It died a little when the trans-global corporations began to demand even greater loyalty than people give their countries;
> It died a little when people saw the utter futility of the patriotism which had been whipped up in them to get them into the trenches of the First World War;
> It died a little when people saw the anti-communist tag stuck on people who were merely not thinking the same way as other people.
> It is a dying art this patriotism - it has been killing my fellow islanders for generations - and a fat lot of good it has done any of they who died or they who lived.
> 
> It received a fatal wound when Wilfred Owen found an eager audience who reacted sympathetically to his lines
> My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
> To children ardent for some desperate glory,
> The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est
> Pro patria mori.​I cannot post more than four lines of it, but you'll find the rest easily if you don't know it already.
> 
> National pride is not a thing worth killing for, all the less is it worth dying for.
> Surely it is better to live for one's country than to die for it?



There is nothing positive about cynicism. One can be objective without being cynical. Cynicism is negative, it expects the worse, and it is entirely unobjective.

How did I misunderstand your remarks?

I think you confuse nationalism with patriotism.

Patriotism has done America just fine.

Sometimes it is worth dying for your country to help preserve a better life for those you love that might otherwise be speaking German.


----------



## Setwale_Charm

I agree that maxiogee`s vision of patriotism seems to be extremely one-sided and only focusing on wars somehow. Why cannot people grasp that patriotism and nationalism do not necessarily go with aggression in the same way as a kitchen knife does not necessarily go with murder. Patriotism will exist as long as there is such a thing as division of humans into groups, I guess. It is natural for people belonging to one group to have common features and to be distinguishable and strive to distinguish "their own" folk from the rest. What on earth has it got to do with hostility and suppression of other groups?
And it is more than just an accident of birth. It might look as such to people who have been living within their own group all their life. But it very quickly goes beyond this and there is the whole way of thinking, of perceptions of the surrounding world and of what is right and wrong with regard to behaviour. This is why integration is such a major issue and why strategies working for the welfare of one country never work for another. People who deny this are the ones who simply ignore the problem for far too long and this is why we are reaping today what we have sown.


----------



## maxiogee

invictaspirit said:


> I also feel that the founding of an independent Ireland was built on the sacrifice of men's lives. Would you have delayed this independence by decades to have spared these lives?



Yes. I would.
I would argue against the notion that only violent, non-democratic action could secure Ireland's independence.
I would have much preferred to see some of the leaders of 1916 live one to serve their cause, rather than die to further it. (I say 'some of the leaders' as I'm not sure that others had a lot to offer politically.)

Along with the "we'd all be speaking German if the Germans had won" positions adopted by people in debates there is a tendency to assume that 1916 was a _sine qua non_ of Irish independence. If these people were the visionaries we are led to believe they were they would have had much to contribute.
The loss of certain lives in our War of Independence and our Civil War are to be regretted to an extent greater than any benefits accruing from them.


----------



## Setwale_Charm

The problem is, maxiogee, you are trying to tie the broad phenomenon and notion to some negative instances where it played a bad role. But anything can be carried to extremes and when it is used by idiots or assumes pathological forms. Is football bad as such only because there are football hooligans and violence connected with that? Believe me, if we abolish football, they will find other reason to fight, as well as people will have wars even if the notion of nationality as such is obliterated. It is like an acquaintance of mine whose family life was a terrible wreck and he now believes that the fault lies uniquely with the emancipation of women and the laws which allow them to work. And the world can exist no other way but the way it was 200 years ago.
Do not link national pride to wars only, esp. as they might have been caused in reality by completely different goals and circumstances.


----------



## maxiogee

PandaX said:


> There is nothing positive about cynicism. One can be objective without being cynical. Cynicism is negative, it expects the worse, and it is entirely unobjective.


I disagree - I think many who know me would sday that I am very objective.





> How did I misunderstand your remarks?





> That only makes sense if we are only capable of loving and appreciating one thing or one person.


Do you love anyone in the same way as you love your husband or wife?
Can a patriot love any other country as they love their own?

You seem to think that love is a cornucopia - and it is to the extent that there are forms of love which are non-exclusive, but many forms of love are exclusive, and I put patriotism in that class.




> I think you confuse nationalism with patriotism.


No, I see them as complexly intertwined. Nationalism feeds off patriotism to the extent that it cannot exist without it.




> Patriotism has done America just fine.


But has American patriotism done the rest of the world "just fine"?




> Sometimes it is worth dying for your country to help preserve a better life for those you love that might otherwise be speaking German.


Well now, had you said "might otherwise be living under a vile dictatorship" you might have almost made a valid point. But as it is, you diminish your theoretical patriot's sacrifice by having them die to preserve a language.


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## LV4-26

There's nothing more effective than the hatred, contempt or rejection of outsiders to bring the members of a group together.

When you say you're proud of your country, what does that say about your feeling towards other countries? It's a sincere question, I'm not sure I have the answer. Can "national pride" work in a circle, or is it necessarily "comparative"? I mean, when you say you're proud of your country doesn't it imply that you think it's in some way better than others?
This issue inevitably brings to my mind the "God is on our side"  nonsense.

What is "my country"?  Governement, culture, history, people, landscapes,...? Being proud of such a complex and, above all, untangible entity, isn't that a feeling for.... poets?


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## Setwale_Charm

LV4-26 said:


> There's nothing more effective than the hatred, contempt or rejection of outsiders to bring the members of a group together.
> 
> When you say you're proud of your country, what does that say about your feeling towards other countries? It's a sincere question, I'm not sure I have the answer. Can "national pride" work in a circle, or is it necessarily "comparative"? I mean, when you say you're proud of your country doesn't it imply that you think it's in some way better than others?
> This issue inevitably brings to my mind the "God is on our side" nonsense.
> 
> What is "my country"? Governement, culture, history, people, landscapes,...? Being proud of such a complex and, above all, untangible entity, isn't that a feeling for.... poets?


 
 Disagree. Again the above argument. It MAY be hatred, but it DOES NOT HAVE to be hatred. It might be genuine interest and respect for others. 
 I am fascinated by languages, cultures myself but one needs to have some sort of sense of belonging. And I can say all the more for it having lived in so many countries.
 Again, I do not know why you have to take only the negative extreme side of it, you can do that with anything. 
  You have special feeling for your nearest and dearest, yet does it mean you hate and despise other people and think them worse? I do not think my nation any BETTER, I just think them as being "nearer" to me, like members of my family who are more likely to understand me and share the same perceptions.
 And as long as the phenomenon of division be degree of "community" exists and is likely to continue to, it is far better to try and exploit the positive aspects of it.
 After all, you are not proposing to eliminate families only because family violence exists in abundance and logically only within the situation of family. There would not exist family violence if there were no families and no ties between people, and probably, no communication at all.


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## timpeac

I find patriotism and nationalism both equally hard to fathom. I agree with LV4's post above. I find it difficult to be "proud" of a form of government which I had nothing to do with to bring into existence. I don't feel anymore affiliated to the achievements of my direct ancenstors than I do, or could, of any other human achievement around the world. That said, I don't feel particularly guilty at their atrocities either - apart from a desire to heal any resulting wound that may exist, but I would want to help people who were suffering whatever the cause.

I suppose if we define "patriotism" very very narrowly as the desire to defend what you consider to be good in the culture you are (in my case lucky enough to be) born into then I would be patriotic in acting to prevent communism, say, taking hold since I disagree with that ideology. Nationalism, on the other hand, leaves me utter perplexed in those who feel it.


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## LV4-26

Setwale_Charm said:


> Disagree. Again the above argument. It MAY be hatred, but it DOES NOT HAVE to be hatred. It might be genuine interest and respect for others.


Reread the first sentence you quoted carefully and you'll see that I didn't say that hatred of outsiders is the only basis for group unity. (even though I was very much tempted to  ). I just said group unity is enhanced by it.


> [....]
> You have special feeling for your nearest and dearest, yet does it mean you hate and despise other people and think them worse? I do not think my nation any BETTER, I just think them as being "nearer" to me, like members of my family who are more likely to understand me and share the same perceptions.


But I know the members of my family personally. I don't know the 60,000,000 other people of my country personally. I know some. And I know that there's a good many I couldn't even discuss with, the way I'm discussing with you. And, among the few I know, I know there are two who undertook to beat my head off once.  Those obviously didn't understand me or share my perceptions.
Yet, I'm willing to grant you that the absence of a cultural gap between those people and me makes communication easier. All the rest is delusive, I believe. I mean it may exist as a "collective phantasm" but I don't think that supposed feeling of closeness would resist one second were I to be introduced to each of my compatriots individually.

Of course, there's one particular case in which I'd feel close to any other French person, that is if we were two lonely French, lost in a crowd of non-French whose language I wouldn't understand (or, worse, if they were bullying us). And even then...not really *any *other French person. Then again, can "patriotism" or "national pride" exist without any reference to other nations?


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## Setwale_Charm

The sense of unity within a group can be enhanced by loads of things. 
 And as for beating (did you say you did not deserve it?  maybe they felt so ashamed of your being part of their great nation that they decided to give a brotherly lesson on how to be a true citizen of N49*5.87 W0*21.16, strictly within a family, of course) this can happen within a family as well, it does not change the concept. I guess, it is only living among foreigners who might find it normal what you consider outrageous and who seem not to possess the features which we long considered the inalienable parts of human behaviour that makes one realise the differences.


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## Setwale_Charm

There is one other point that we are not taking into account here.
 These days people love talking about multi-cultural societies and are sincerely amazed at that it does not work. Well, it never has, it can be multi-ethnic, yes. But any community is bound to share the same laws, notions of what is acceptable, what is crime, what is the way of behaviour, otherwise, it becomes utter chaos and Babylon and a society like that simply collapses. The world is large enough a place and one can only establish this within separate groups of people. They will still have disagreements, desire to breal the existing rules but you probably do not realise how little this is compared to having to live in a Papua tribe or in Saudi Arabia. Those styles are not worse but they can hardly co-exist with ours side by side without major conflicts appearing. 
 I mean, it is probably nice to think that we are all brothers on this earth and should live together happily but one has to be pratical too and not ask for more wars. In actual reality this will hardly ever work this way. I mean, we are all to respect and value each other but in terms of norms and rules for life we will hardly ever become one mass.


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## Outsider

maxiogee said:


> It died a little when the trans-global corporations began to demand even greater loyalty than people give their countries;
> It died a little when people saw the utter futility of the patriotism which had been whipped up in them to get them into the trenches of the First World War;
> It died a little when people saw the anti-communist tag stuck on people who were merely not thinking the same way as other people.
> It is a dying art this patriotism - it has been killing my fellow islanders for generations - and a fat lot of good it has done any of they who died or they who lived.


I think the greatest blow against patriotism/nationalism was struck by its most enthusiastic supporters. After Hitler, Mussolini and the others, I don't think Europeans in general can look at a compulsive flag waver and keep a straight face. We know what they're really after.


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## Etcetera

LV4-26 said:


> What is "my country"? Governement, culture, history, people, landscapes,...? Being proud of such a complex and, above all, untangible entity, isn't that a feeling for.... poets?


Being proud of "my country" doesn't mean being proud of its government and all the people, for example. 
I distinguish clearly between Russia and its president, it government, its parliament. 
I also distinguish between educated, clever, intelligent people and those who can burn a village priest and all his family in their house - did you hear about this shocking affair?

I strongly disagree that being proud for your home country automatically means that you think it's better than other countries. It's... just something different, I suppose.


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## Setwale_Charm

Outsider said:


> I think the greatest blow against patriotism/nationalism was struck by its most enthusiastic supporters. After Hitler, Mussolini and the others, I don't think Europeans in general can look at a compulsive flag waver and keep a straight face. We know what they're really after.


 
 That is a bit of paranoia already.


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## timpeac

Etcetera said:


> Being proud of "my country" doesn't mean being proud of its government and all the people, for example.
> I distinguish clearly between Russia and its president, it government, its parliament.
> I also distinguish between educated, clever, intelligent people and those who can burn a village priest and all his family in their house - did you hear about this shocking affair?
> 
> I strongly disagree that being proud for your home country automatically means that you think it's better than other countries. It's... just something different, I suppose.


If it's not (necessarily) being proud of its people or government and it doesn't mean you think your country is better than others, then what is it? (I'm not saying you're wrong necessarily, just asking).


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## Outsider

Setwale_Charm said:


> That is a bit of paranoia already.


Same causes, same effects.

My previous post was rather blunt, I must admit. I do not think that people who feel patriotism are (necessarily) wicked. But patriotic feelings are too easily exploited by unscrupulous crowd manipulators for dark purposes (or at least with no regard for the possibly bleak consequences). Far from being a people's strength, patriotism can be a dangerous emotional weakness.


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## Etcetera

timpeac said:


> If it's not (necessarily) being proud of its people or government and it doesn't mean you think your country is better than others, then what is it? (I'm not saying you're wrong necessarily, just asking).


A feeling of belonging to a country. 
There are things in my country I am proud of. In history, for example. Peter the Great. Catherine the Second. Alexander the First. The Decembrists. The defence of Leningrad. And many others...


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## Etcetera

Outsider said:


> Same causes, same effects.
> 
> My previous post was rather blunt, I must admit. I do not think that people who feel patriotism are (necessarily) wicked. But patriotic feelings are too easily exploited by unscrupulous crowd manipulators for dark purposes (or at least with no regard for the possibly bleak consequences). Far from being a people's strength, patriotism can be a dangerous emotional weakness.


I can't but agree. 
When I see young people waving flags and shouting something like "Russia forever!", I feel really scary. And I try to keep as far from them as possible. 
I am sure most people feel the same.

At the same time, patriotism is a good feeling, that's my opinion. But it should be accompanied with tolerance.


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## Sepia

timpeac said:


> If it's not (necessarily) being proud of its people or government and it doesn't mean you think your country is better than others, then what is it? (I'm not saying you're wrong necessarily, just asking).



For one he said "all its people".

If I take pride in something that sprang out of my culture or one of the cultures I am closely related to it surely does not mean I have to approve of anything or anyone who comes from there, does it? 

And like someone said, the place of birth may be more or less coincidential. Personally I can find better things to be proud of than something that happened by coincidence.


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## timpeac

Etcetera said:


> A feeling of belonging to a country.
> There are things in my country I am proud of. In history, for example. Peter the Great. Catherine the Second. Alexander the First. The Decembrists. The defence of Leningrad. And many others...


I think this is more effect than cause though - surely it's because you are patriotic you feel pride in these people? To put it the other way round, how can you feel pride in the achievements of people years before your birth? Presumably because you are patriotic, but that answer leads us in full circle.


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## Setwale_Charm

Outsider said:


> Same causes, same effects.
> 
> My previous post was rather blunt, I must admit. I do not think that people who feel patriotism are (necessarily) wicked. But patriotic feelings are too easily exploited by unscrupulous crowd manipulators for dark purposes (or at least with no regard for the possibly bleak consequences). Far from being a people's strength, patriotism can be a dangerous emotional weakness.


 
 No, no, I did not mean YOU. I was talking of Europeans who react that way. Again, it is a bit like hating geneticists because Hitler used some of their ideas perverting them in a horrible way or hating Wagner and all of classical music for that matter. It is really hard to live with that label, esp. for geneticists, demographers and like of our brothers. Anything you say that sounds remotely relating to the subject is labelled Nazism at once without even listening. Believe it or not, but I have been called nazi simply for liking Germans. their language and culture.


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## Outsider

Setwale_Charm said:


> Again, it is a bit like hating geneticists because Hitler used some of their ideas perverting them in a horrible way or hating Wagner and all of classical music for that matter.


Well, Wagner _was_ an anti-semite... (and a romantic, not a classicist )



Setwale_Charm said:


> It is really hard to live with that label, esp. for geneticists, demographers and like of our brothers.


Some geneticists defended outrageous "eugeny" programmes, in the decades that preceded Nazism (and sometimes afterwards still), in Germany and elsewhere. They should be held accountable. It's too easy to blame it all on "mad Hitler" and make him the escape goat.



Setwale_Charm said:


> Believe it or not, but I have been called nazi simply for liking Germans. their language and culture.


That's just silly, of course.


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## timpeac

Sepia said:


> For one he said "all its people".


Yes, I know - that's why I put the "necessarily" in. 


Sepia said:


> If I take pride in something that sprang out of my culture or one of the cultures I am closely related to it surely does not mean I have to approve of anything or anyone who comes from there, does it?


I should hope not. But my question is why you would be taking pride in something that sprang from the culture you happened to be born in.


Sepia said:


> And like someone said, the place of birth may be more or less coincidential. Personally I can find better things to be proud of than something that happened by coincidence.


This is my point - or at least the part I would like clarity on from those who manage to feel pride in something they have had nothing to do with creating (usually because these things happened before our birth).


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## Sepia

timpeac said:


> Yes, I know - that's why I put the "necessarily" in.
> I should hope not. But my question is why you would be taking pride in something that sprang from the culture you happened to be born in.
> 
> This is my point - or at least the part I would like clarity on from those who manage to feel pride in something they have had nothing to do with creating (usually because these things happened before our birth).



Ah, I see. Seems to include a lot of stuff that I don't even store in the drawer taggged "national pride."


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## Setwale_Charm

Outsider said:


> Well, Wagner _was_ an anti-semite... (and a romantic, not a classicist )


Which did not make him any worse of a musician. I wonder if you look into other musician`s background and private life, what will we find there.



Outsider said:


> Some geneticists defended outrageous "eugeny" programmes, in the decades that preceded Nazism (and sometimes afterwards still), in Germany and elsewhere. They should be held accountable. It's too easy to blame it all on "mad Hitler" and make him the escape goat.


One has to be careful here. And not to label the knowledge of genetical differences between various races which are real and yet tied up to Hitle`s eugeny so often with his ideas about exterminating other nations. The problem was: he took some of very real ideas and perverted them in his own way and for his own purpose. Thus making it inpossible to research them further because people immediately see red, as you pointed out with flags. Almost anything in any science can be associated with people who have abused it throught history.


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## Setwale_Charm

It seems we are confusing here pride with national identity, national feeling.


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## timpeac

Setwale_Charm said:


> It seems we are confusing here pride with national identity, national feeling.


Yes, I agree - national identity is something I can understand, since we all need to define ourselves in relation to others in some way. I certainly feel British in a way I am not French, and European in a way I am not American.

It's the _pride_ bit that gets me. Am I _proud_ to be British and European? Well I'm certainly not ashamed and am perhaps a little _pleased_ - is that the same thing?


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## Cereth

I think I have never asked this to myself....people can be famous whether they contribute to world´s development or not...
Personally I am proud of many people despite of their nationality..Christ, Marie curie, Joseph Wolpe (Psychologist), Hayao Miyazaki,Van goh, I personally don´t admire any mexican ...famous..(I admire people from my circle of friends or family and the aztec, mayan, olmec cultures)...

We are citizens of the world aren´t we? but despite this fact I don´t agree with Maxiogee, and other forer@s opinion, because I don´t think we were born in the land we born accidentally...I think all in this life has a reason ...but I don´t see the point in nationalism (because at the end it has implied the notion of : my land is better than yours in x, y and Z aspects...)...ahh such a stupid matter...When I was a child I used to hate spaniards because they "conquered" us mexicans and forced us to speak their language and believe in their God, killing our people and forcing us to believe that Virgen of Guadalupe really appeared to native mexican Juan Diego.. 
but that was quite a long ,long time ago, and my mind changed since I learned the people is the worth to be loved/admired not their nationality...


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## Outsider

Setwale_Charm said:


> One has to be careful here. And not to label the knowledge of genetical differences between various races which are real and yet tied up to Hitle`s eugeny so often with his ideas about exterminating other nations.


Differences between races are only in people's minds. Granted, this was little known back in the thirties, but that's still no excuse for racism.



Setwale_Charm said:


> The problem was: he took some of very real ideas and perverted them in his own way and for his own purpose. Thus making it inpossible to research them further because people immediately see red, as you pointed out with flags. Almost anything in any science can be associated with people who have abused it throught history.


The Nazis did not need to pervert racial theories very much. Respectable scientists had been promoting more or less the same ideologies for decades. They merely put those high ideals into practice. Remember Hitler's favorite saying, "Politics is applied biology"? He meant it!


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## Setwale_Charm

Outsider said:


> Differences between races are only in people's minds. Granted, this was little known back in the thirties, but that's still no excuse for racism.
> 
> The Nazis did not need to pervert racial theories very much. Respectable scientists had been promoting more or less the same ideologies for decades. They merely put those high ideals into practice. Remember Hitler's favorite saying, "Politics is applied biology"? He meant it!


 

 Sorry but the difference biological are quite real. Not in the sense of somebody being superior or inferior but int the way of reaction to various diseases etc. And we deny it, it makes dealing with various illnesses like AIDS and so on very difficult. The denial of this truth has been killing Africa for decades since nobody wants to take those objective differences into account while working on medicines.


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## chung

natasha2000 said:


> On one hand, I agree with Chung's words. On the other, I really don't see much sense in denying of what one is. While my sense of nationality does not include derogatory attitude towards others, I think its ok. We are NOT all the same, meaning that we have been born and raised in different cultures, and that is the beauty of a humankind. If qe were all the same, this world would be such a boring place.
> Forgetting completely of nations means exatly this.I am a citizen of the world, yes, but I am also a Serbian, and I am proud of it. This for sure does not imply that I am better or worse from anyone in this world. Likewise, I can be proud of people like Nikola Tesla or Ivo Andric, but also ashamed of people like Miloshevic. I am just what I am, and I don't run away from it.


 
Just to keep this thread on topic... 

Thank you danielfranco for your kind words, but I'm sure that I'm not the only one who has expressed these thoughts before.

Natasha, it's interesting that you mention Nikola Tesla since he comes to mind when I think about national pride. As much as I have reservations about Balkan nationalism (and Tesla's well-known eccentricites  ), I can't help but admire Tesla's attitude when he declared: "I am as proud of my Croatian homeland as I am of my Serbian name."

I want just want to reiterate that I still feel that birth and national affiliation are accidents and that people act as they see fit, which may or may not conform to some nebulous concept of how kindred folk are supposed to behave. Put it this way. It's a more accurate judgement of my character to say that "He is Chung" (i.e. implying that I'm some guy who does this and that and has such and such views) rather than to say "Chung is [insert national affiliation here]". Each person who has met me, gets a slightly different impression of me, and definitely would describe me with various character traits (based on our shared experiences or meetings) rather than emphasize my ancestry.

When we get beyond these somewhat arbitrary criteria of national identification, we see that humans form (break off) relationships with each other because of the presence of "absolute" traits such as loyalty (or disloyalty), reliability (or unreliability), generosity (or stinginess), affection (or dislike) and humour. These I find are decisive in forming and maintaining (or discarding) relationships. As one can tell, none of the "absolute" traits that I have mentioned are specific to national character. The only usefulness I find in respecting and acknowledging anyone's national character is:

i) It can make a good conversation piece/icebreaker. That's useful for social interaction. (e.g. "Hey! You're from X, aren't you? I have a good friend from there, would you know..." etc.)

ii) While I may ascribe little importance to my ancestry, my appearance and nominal attachment to a certain group of people can help me to understand why strangers treat me in the way that they do (at least at first glance). This point isn't necessarily bad and it helps me to deal with others in the least stressful way.

Regards
Chung


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## Outsider

Setwale_Charm said:


> Sorry but the difference biological are quite real. Not in the sense of somebody being superior or inferior but int the way of reaction to various diseases etc.


No, you are mistaken. We've discussed this matter here in the forum a few times. I suggest you Google for an excellent PBS documentary called "Race: The power of an illusion". There is a great website about it.

For decades, anthropologists tried to convince themselves and everyone else that races were real, but increasingly during the 20th century (starting even before WWII) they abandoned that sinking ship. What we think we see is just not there, biologically speaking.



Setwale_Charm said:


> And we deny it, it makes dealing with various illnesses like AIDS and so on very difficult. The denial of this truth has been killing Africa for decades since nobody wants to take those objective differences into account while working on medicines.


This is definitely off-topic, but I can't resist asking what are you talking about.


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## Setwale_Charm

Outsider said:


> No, you are mistaken. We've discussed this matter here in the forum a few times. I suggest you Google for an excellent PBS documentary called "Race: The power of an illusion". There is a great website about it.
> 
> For decades, anthropologists tried to convince themselves and everyone else that races were real, but increasingly during the 20th century (starting even before WWII) they abandoned that sinking ship. What we think we see is just not there, biologically speaking.
> 
> This is definitely off-topic, but I can't resist asking what are you talking about.


 About my job simply. I had to deal with that every day. I do not see the point in denying the known.


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## Outsider

I had never heard of a connection between AIDS and race before. As I don't believe in biological races in the first place, I'm skeptical to say the least, but I'll stop now as this is off-topic.


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## maxiogee

timpeac said:


> If it's not (necessarily) being proud of its people or government and it doesn't mean you think your country is better than others, then what is it? (I'm not saying you're wrong necessarily, just asking).



Tim, when you get an acceptable answer to this will you send a team to track down my great great grandchildren. They'll probably recollect grandma's granddar who spent is latter years mumbling 'patriotism - bah humbug!' in his Frillless Facility For Fuzzzybrained Forer@s & Eccentric Moderators Hall, which will be known as FFFFF eM 'all


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## PandaX

timpeac said:


> If it's not (necessarily) being proud of its people or government and it doesn't mean you think your country is better than others, then what is it? (I'm not saying you're wrong necessarily, just asking).



He or she said "all" its people. 

Are you suggesting you can't be proud of your own accomplishments without thinking you are better than someone else? No difference.

I can be proud of my country's many positive accomplishments without looking down on another country or people.


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