# Condition



## ThomasK

Do you have a specific word for _condition_ in your language, not the Latin word (meaning: kind of a proviso, requirement - as in : 'A condition for you to become a member is that you ...') ? 

Finnish - *ehto*
Dutch - *voorwaarde* (pre-guard, lit., i.e. a compound)


_(Thanks again !)_


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## Orlin

Bulgarian and Russian use _условие_, Serbian _uslov_, Croatian _uvjet_ http://hjp.srce.hr/index.php?show=search_by_id&id=f19gUBZ9&keyword=uvjet and sometimes _uslov_ http://hjp.srce.hr/index.php?show=search_by_id&id=f19gWxl1&keyword=uslov too.


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## ThomasK

I believe the uv- or -us refers to a prefix. Is it directional or does it refer to separation?


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## Orlin

ThomasK said:


> I believe the uv- or -us refers to a prefix. Is it directional or does it refer to separation?


I don't know, see the etymology that the on-line dictionary HJP gives. I'm not a specialist in etymology.


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## ThomasK

No problem, but I haven't been able to trace the HJP dictionary. Internet refers to Harry James Potter, but he certainly is not an etymologist ! ;-)


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## Orlin

ThomasK said:


> No problem, but I haven't been able to trace the HJP dictionary. Internet refers to Harry James Potter, but he certainly is not an etymologist ! ;-)


My links above are directly to the respective dictionary entries of HJP containing information about etymology in them.


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## ThomasK

Now I realize it is the source you referred to above. Too bad I cannot read Slavic, but I guess someone will be able to answer the question. Thanks! In the meantime I found out that _*slovo*_ is an important word in Slavic, and means either letter, word or even farewell. So I guess here it will be a kind of word (as in 'con-dit-ion').


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## apmoy70

In Greek:
«Προϋπόθεση» (proi'poθesi _f._); a learned (katharevousa) compound word constructed by the joining together of the ancient prefix and preposition «πρὸ» (prŏ)-->_before, in front of_ + feminine noun «ὑπόθεσις/υπόθεση» (hū'pŏtʰĕsīs [ancient 3rd declension feminine noun]/i'poθesi [modern Greek feminine noun])-->_proposal, proposed action, suggestion, advice_. «Προϋπόθεση» is something like "pre-condition, pre-assumption".


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## ThomasK

_It seems strange to me that neither Greek, nor Dutch or English have an easy word for 'condition', as I am exploring __here__. _

It seems self-evident to me that it begins with 'pro'/'pre' (first fulfil the conditions and only then...), and yet, English/ French nor Finnish refer to conditions necessarily preceding the 'execution'.


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## bibax

> Do you have a specific word for condition in your language, not the Latin word...
> 
> So I guess here it will be a kind of word (as in 'con-dit-ion').


Strangely the Latin word for _condition_ is NOT *conditio* but *condicio*. *Conditio* means something else.

*condicio* = agreement, a condition/requirement arising from an agreement; from con-dico, dicere = to negotiate;

*conditio* = seasoning; from con-dio, dire = to spice, also to embalm;

The English (and French) condition is a misspelling from the times when both condicio and conditio were pronounced the same way.

Btw, in Russian *кондитер* (konditer) means confectioner (pastry cook).


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## ThomasK

Quite interesting, thanks for pointing that out. And indeed, a German _Konditorei_ offers no 'conditions' in return for its pastries or cakes. 

In the meantime I thought of the German *'Bedingung'*, which reminded me of the older Dutch word *'beding'* (_onder geen beding_ = no way [under no condition]), which indeed refers back to a 'ding' in Dutch, which referred to a court case (and implies some negotiation)._ [That explains, so I read, why our Tuesday is_ *dinsdag* _(not_ dingsdag _though)]_


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## Alxmrphi

I'm struggling to understand what you mean b_y easy word_, can you elaborate?
To express conditions I thought English* if* would be counted.


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## ThomasK

I know that I am (always...) venturing upon dangerous hypotheses, but _ehto_ in Finnish is simple to me: 
- just a stem, 'extremely' Finnish ;-), 
- no derivation, no compound (_voorwaarde_, _uslov_) 
- not a loan word (_condition, Προϋπόθεση,_ which Apmoy calls 'a learned (katharevousa) compound word')
I agree that _if/ then_ refer to conditions, but they are not nouns. 

_But it might be better to explore that __here__. Background for my research is language learning: what are essential words or no, concepts, in a language? _


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## bibax

Czech:

*podmínka* = condition; from the verb *podmínit* = to make/give a condition;

pod + mínit = to under + mean; (we already discussed the verb mínit = to mean, do you remember?);

Another word is *předpoklad* = presumption, premise; and *požadavek* = requirement.

The Latin word *kondice* has another meaning in Czech:

tělesná kondice (body condition) =  shape, fitness;
dobrá tělesná kondice =  eutaxia (good body condition);
chovná kondice = stud condition, breeding condition;
...

(The word *úsloví* (u + slovo) means locution, saying.)


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## Orlin

bibax said:


> The Latin word *kondice* has another meaning in Czech:
> 
> tělesná kondice (body condition) =  shape, fitness;
> dobrá tělesná kondice =  eutaxia (good body condition);
> chovná kondice = stud condition, breeding condition;
> ...
> 
> (The word *úsloví* (u + slovo) means locution, saying.)


It's interesting that _кондиция_ in Bulgarian and Russian is equivalent to Czech _kondice_ while Croatian kondicija can be equivalent to English _condition_ in both senses.


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## ThomasK

@ Orlin: oh, those languages ! Quite unpredictable !

@ Bibax: quite interesting... 
- I am so sorry, but where did we discuss 'to mean' ? 
- *'under-mean'*: quite challenging, but could you paraphrase that? Something like: what I understand has to be done before you reach... the top ? 
- interesting links with *'premise', 'presumption', 'requirement'*, but do you consider the words in Czech quite synonymous ? 
- 'condition' is also situation in Dutch (_in goede conditie_, _werkvoorwaarden_/ working conditions)
- *úsloví* will be something like out-speak, I guess; correct ?


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## ThomasK

I may be allowed to mention these sentences in order to make sure we are referring to the same concept (in order not to unknowingly discuss different things): 

_1. You can do it, but on this condition : you ... _
_2. The condition for you to participate is that you... _
_3. You must meet the condition that ... _


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## apmoy70

ThomasK said:


> I may be allowed to mention these sentences in order to make sure we are referring to the same concept (in order not to unknowingly discuss different things):
> 
> _1. You can do it, but on this condition : you ... _
> _2. The condition for you to participate is that you... _
> _3. You must meet the condition that ... _


All of the above are covered by «προϋπόθεση» or «προϋποθέσεις» (proipo'θesis _plural f._; it's more natural in Greek to say "you can do it but under *these προϋποθέσεις*).


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## bibax

> I am so sorry, but where did we discuss 'to mean' ?


"I mean/the word means" in July 2010.



> - 'under-mean': quite challenging, but could you paraphrase that? Something like: what I understand has to be done before you reach... the top ?


I don't know why we "undermean" (your participation in an event, for example). It is similar like "podvod" (from podvádět = to under-lead) = fraud (from Latin) = Betrug (from be-tragen, = Schwindel).



> - interesting links with 'premise', 'presumption', 'requirement', but do you consider the words in Czech quite synonymous ?


I think they are quite synonymous in English, too, esp. requirement.



> - úsloví will be something like out-speak, I guess; correct ?


Yes, from the verb usloviti, vysloviti = aussprechen, aussagen, to "out-speak", to pronounce.


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## ThomasK

Thanks, both of you. 

@Bibax
- sorry for my forgetfulness !
- I know that kind of 'under': avoiding taxes for instance is onder- or no, ontduiken (de-diving --> going under the radar ;-) - or maybe as in _presupposition_ (_sub_)

As for synonymity: would you be able to substitute one for the other in the sentences in #17? I don't think so. Or ... ? (Thanks !)


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## Rallino

In Turkish we have two words for it: _*Koşul*_ (which is a Turkic word) and _*Şart*_ (from Arabic).


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## ThomasK

Dio they differ in use, Rallino? Can you use both of them in the sentences in #17 ? Do you have any idea of the etymology ?


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## Rallino

ThomasK said:


> Dio they differ in use, Rallino? Can you use both of them in the sentences in #17 ? Do you have any idea of the etymology ?



Yes, they are interchangeable in every context but one: _Normal şartlar altında_ is a fixed-expression in chemistry (means: under standard conditions). We never say "normal koşullar altında", although it is grammatically correct.

About their Etymology: 
"Şart" is Arabic, I have no idea what it originally means in that language. About koşul, I have a very childish idea that I'm embarassed to share ... 
O.K. here we go: It is possible that _Koşul _, comes from *koş-mak* (to run). In order to achieve something, _certain events must already be running_: These events are "conditions".


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## ThomasK

Well, I don't mind hypotheses, if one just mentions that it is just a hypothesis. But I'd say that in most cases the events have already have been done for something else to happen. No ? But what the two elements: pre + run ?

I just checked a thread about conditional clauses and wondered if the word _Şart_ can be used as some kind of conjunction, like _in the case of . _


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## Orlin

ThomasK said:


> I may be allowed to mention these sentences in order to make sure we are referring to the same concept (in order not to unknowingly discuss different things):
> 
> _1. You can do it, but on this condition : you ... _
> _2. The condition for you to participate is that you... _
> _3. You must meet the condition that ... _


I think we have BG/RUS условие and BCS uslov/uvjet in all of them.


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## Rallino

ThomasK said:


> Well, I don't mind hypotheses, if one just mentions that it is just a hypothesis. But I'd say that in most cases the events have already have been done for something else to happen. No ? But what the two elements: pre + run ?
> 
> I just checked a thread about conditional clauses and wondered if the word _Şart_ can be used as some kind of conjunction, like _in the case of . _



No, "in the case of" and "in the condition that" are translated differently in Turkish. The latter can be said with _şart_; the former is translated as: *durumunda* which means _in the situation of_.


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## ThomasK

That is an interesting track as well: a condition is like a case - on condition, in the case that, don't you think. You do not consider them interchangeable, I believe. 

I wonder if Sakvaka is still around. I'd like to know if you could use 'ehto' like 'case' as well, or how one translates 'on condition that' into Finnish.


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## Black4blue

Rallino said:


> Yes, they are interchangeable in every context but one: _Normal şartlar altında_ is a fixed-expression in chemistry (means: under standard conditions). We never say "normal koşullar altında", although it is grammatically correct.
> 
> About their Etymology:
> "Şart" is Arabic, I have no idea what it originally means in that language. About koşul, I have a very childish idea that I'm embarassed to share ...
> O.K. here we go: It is possible that _Koşul _, comes from *koş-mak* (to run). In order to achieve something, _certain events must already be running_: These events are "conditions".


 
Yes it comes from *koşmak* (to run). Don't we say "*şart koşmak*" (to condition)


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## Outsider

ThomasK said:


> That is an interesting track as well: a condition is like a case - on condition, in the case that, don't you think.


I was trying to think of a synonym in the Romance languages that didn't sound so much like a learned word as "condition"... The cognates of "case" (from Latin _casus_) would be a good choice.


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## ThomasK

Of course in Romanic languages you will have that word. I am still trying to find out whether we spontaneously refer to conditions. I suppose something like *demands* could work too : when I want conditions to be fulfilled, then those are kind-of demands we impose. I suppose 'conditions' belongs to a fairly formal language.


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## francisgranada

Hungarian:

*feltétel* 
_fel_ = up
_tétel_ = cca. thesis, from _tenni_ = to put, to do


on/under condition:

_feltétel mellett_ (by condition) 
_azzal a feltétellel, hogy..._ (with the condition, that ...) 
_feltéve, hogy..._ (cca. "having put up", that ...)


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## ThomasK

Well, an interesting variant. It reminds me of imposing: -pose' , 'put', 'thesis', seem related). Does the _fel_ element refer to imposing in other situations? We use an _op_/_up_-word to say that we impose/ _opleggen_ conditions. I suppose that is a link, but I am not sure.


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## Outsider

Francisgranada's example made me think of the word "postulate", which I thought might be related to Latin _ponere_ (to put), but it turns out that it isn't:



> early 15c. (implied in _postulation_), "nominate to a church office," from M.L. _postulatus_, pp. of _postulare_ "to ask, demand," probably formed from pp. of L. _poscere_ "ask urgently, demand," from *_posk-to_-, Italic inchoative of PIE base *_prek_- "to ask questions" (cf. Skt. _prcchati_, Avestan _peresaiti_ "interrogates," O.H.G. _forskon_, Ger. _forschen_ "to search, inquire"). Use in logic dates from 1640s, borrowed from M.L. The noun is first recorded 1580s.


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## ThomasK

I keep thinking about the word. The concept can't be that new, but we are getting all kinds of roots. It seems every language has developed its own word, or almost (_condition_). That would make one (or only me ?) think it must be fairly old. I keep thinking about the Finnish _ehto_, which has no relation to any verb, whereas most have, it seems to me. 

I enquired at the Arabic section what the Turkish word '*Şart* ', borrowed from Arabic, could mean originally, and Ustaath replied that 


> The root verb (...) means *'to constrain', 'constrict'* and therefore also by association: 'to place a condition ( an absolute) upon someone or something' , (as a verb) and a 'condition' (as a noun). It also means to* 'slash/shred using a sharp blade'*.


 
When I try to generalize so far, I can see : 
- negatation (condicio, ding in Dutch)
- speaking out (Slavic, if I am not too general)
- something like imposing (Greek, Hungarian)
- something mysterious, or simply 'condition' in Finnish
- constraint or cutting (Arabic)
- maybe running (Turkish)
Anyone ready to venture upon some conclusion ? _(Of course new contributions are most welcome !)_


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## mataripis

Tagalog: Kalagayan.              note: never use this word with the visayan folks, cause it means " male sex organ".


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## ThomasK

Is there some special root in it, M ?


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## AutumnOwl

ThomasK said:


> _1. You can do it, but on this condition : you ... _
> _2. The condition for you to participate is that you... _
> _3. You must meet the condition that ... _


_*Swedish:*_
1. Du kan göra det, under _*förutsättning*_ att du...
2. _*Förutsättningen*_ för ditt deltagande är att du...
3. Du måste _*uppfylla kravet*_ att... (uppfylla kravet = fulfill the demand)


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## ThomasK

I suppose *förutsättning* and German _Voraussetzung _consist of the same elements. And I suppose _*kravet *_has the same root as the English _craving_. Thanks.


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## mataripis

ThomasK said:


> Is there some special root in it, M ?


The root word is "Lagay" (where it is placed)


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## arielipi

in hebrew its pretty much combined like in english, tnay would be condition, either as in order for you to... and the current condition forces us to...


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## darush

in Persian we use a plural Arabic word for condition and conditions that is _sharaayet_ شرایط single form of it is _shart _شرط 
but arabs use a different word for condotions; _zoruf _ظروف
(Persian is Heavily influenced by Arabic)


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## ancalimon

I think Turkish "koşul" might be related with "KO" meaning "the put something into place" (in order to meet a precondition).  Thus "if something is going to happen, another thing has to be placed in position.

The Ş might be a suffix that is added to different types of words that give the word a meaning of "relationship between two things"

But it I might be totally off track. (I think I'm wrong)

The etymology dictionary I have talks about it being related to "running" but that running might not be related with running as in "moving fast" at all...  "koş" also means something related but totally different which is "to ready the horses for running" (for example ready the necessary equipment) or get ready for a long journey.


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## ThomasK

Lithuanian: *sąlyga *< lygus  (at the same level: you must get to that level).


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