# Persian: to drown, to sink into the water



## CyrusSH

I can find words for it in almost all Indo-European languages but not Persian, the word "marg" sounds like Latin _mergo_ (merge) but I doubt it could be related!


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## kloie

For to drown I found qargh kardan.


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## CyrusSH

kloie said:


> For to drown I found qargh kardan.



Of course, but it has Arabic origin, not Persian.


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## fdb

In Parthian there is the noun nixāb “drowning” and the verb nixāf-, perhaps “to drown (trans.)”.


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## colognial

Hi, CyrusSH. The verb is غرق شدن or غرق کردن in the Persian normally spoken around Iran. As for an old word that is close in sound to merge, I can't think of anything, I'm sure. The only word that comes to my mind is Marjaan = coral. Could you do anything with that, do you think?


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## fdb

Neither marg (death) nor marjān (corral) has anything to do with “drowning”. What are you actually asking?


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## PersoLatin

Hi fdb, do you think nixâb and nixâf are related to xafé or xapé?


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## fdb

I think xafa خفه goes with xafīdan, xufīdan “to cough, sneeze, strangle”.


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## Alfaaz

In Urdu, apart from the Arabic (غرق، وغیرہ) and Prakrit/Sanskrit (ڈوبنا، وغیرہ) origin words, the following derivations from Persian seem to be used (depending on context):  

آب برد/بردہ
زیرِ آب آنا - _(literally)_ _to come under water_


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## CyrusSH

What do you think about غوتیدن (qutidan) and غوته (quteh)? The verb seems to have a Sogdian origin and it is widely used by Tajiks.


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## Alfaaz

_ghautah/ghutah_ might have an Arabic origin as suggested by some dictionaries, but the suggestion could be wrong as well...!? Steingass and Platts:


> غوته _g̠ẖauta, g̠ẖūta,_ A plunge under water (cf. A. غوطة).





> P غوطه _g̠ot̤a_ (prob. for A. غوطة _g̠aut̤at_, n. of un. fr. _g̠aut̤_; see _g̠ot̤_), s.m. Diving, plunging (into); dipping, immersion; a plunge (into water), a dive, a dip:


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## CyrusSH

It could be related to Persian _god_ (_godal_) which means "sink, deep".


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## colognial

It seems anything is possible! May I suggest to you, CyrusSH, that غوطه خوردن and غوطه ور are, scientifically speaking, different to غرق شدن and مغروق. As you may know, a body may be afloat in liquid, bob up and down in it - a state known as 'neutral buoyancy', or sink to the bottom of the vessel holding the liquid. I expect غوطه خوردن is the state of 'neutral buoyancy', i.e. staying not quite afloat, but not quite sinking either.


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## PersoLatin

Hi colognial - I agree. A drowned person can be غوطه ور, eventually but that's not drowning.

It seems that drowning in Germanic languages, relate to 'taking in water', in the same sense as drinking.

I suppose *‏در‏آب ‏خفه ‏شدن* is a mouthful (no pun intended) but as for a single verb, I think we have to invent one like: margâbidan margâbé ŝodan/kardan, or based on the Germanic examples, abarâŝâmidan


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## colognial

Your 'invention' is definitely useful, PersoLatin, although it sounds wrong when you first read it: مرگابه sounds more like the name for the_ place_ in which one may drown. How about فرومردن در آب? I'm just playing along, you understand, don't you? We would need to try our inventions out! Here's mine, with a bit of help from Madame Sosostris:

_With a wicked pack of cards. Here, said she, _
با یک دست ورق معرکه ، این هم، گفت او
_Is your card, the drowned Phoenician Sailor, _
ورق ات، جاشوی فنیقی فرومرده
Compare with: جاشوی فنیقی مغروق

(The lines are by T.S. Eliott)

Well? How does it sound? (And, would you replace it with 'جاشوی فنیقی مرگابه شده'?)


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## PersoLatin

no, فرومرده is much better, I suppose, by default, it can mean drowning in water, and when another medium is involved, you specify, e.g. in a bog, pool of blood, sand, vat of whiskey etc.

مرگابه needs the auxiliary verbs: ŝodan & kardan


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## CyrusSH

In some Persian texts the word "changulak" is used for a drowned person.

بمردن به آب اندرون چنگلوک
به از غوطه خوردن به نیروی غوک


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## PersoLatin

چنگلوک (poetic licence!!) refers to the state of a person after death, due drowning, or any other painful form of it.
Correct version is چنگولک


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## colognial

I read it as 'changalook'. I doubt the word refers to a drowned or drowning person.


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## PersoLatin

By چنگلوک or چنگولک, the author most probably is referring to the state of a body after rigor mortis.


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## PersoLatin

Is the poet actually saying that: even this (painful &) undignified watery death, is preferable to being kept afloat by (the strength of an unworthy) frog?


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## colognial

Makes you wonder what context may possibly have prompted this! But, strange as it sounds, this is what the honorable poet does actually say. This may be a poem about the plight of a small insect that's been flung into water, where a frog offers it help, but puts a price on it which the insect finds undignified and hence unacceptable! A case of an 'indecent proposal' of a sort, maybe. (Compare it, if you would, with the famous parable of the eagle and the raven by Dr. Khaanlari. The same idea is put into eloquent verse in that poem.)


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## PersoLatin

Found this (here):

I don't know, why there are two versions of this:

به مردن به آب اندرون چنگلوک / بِه از رستگاری به نیروی غوک - عنصری۳۵۷

colognial - I think this version, is the exact scenario you described above.


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## colognial

What's the difference? Oh, I see. Thanks, PersoLatin, CyrusSH. What is the actual tale about, PersoLatin? Could you please provide the link to the poem?


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## PersoLatin

Here it is: http://www.vajehyab.com/amid/چنگلوک
but there's no more of it, there.


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## CyrusSH

And here is the one that I mentioned: http://www.vajehyab.com/dehkhoda/مردن


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## colognial

Thank you, PersoLatin.


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## colognial

Thank you, CyrusSH.


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## Alfaaz

Relevant entries from Steingass: 


> درآب افتادن _dar āb uftādan,_ To sink in the water; to be annihilated.
> در آب فرو شدن _dar āb furo shudan,_ To *sink* in the water; to be annihilated, lost.





> چنگلوك _changalok,_ چنگوك _changūk,_ A man debilitated by disease, having his hands and feet contracted, lame, maimed, muti- lated; unable to walk by himself.


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## colognial

Alfaaz, thank you for posting the entries. I'm a bit puzzled about the first one: در آب افتادن to me simply means 'to fall into the water'. I can't seem able to think of an example where the verb has been used to suggest 'annihilation'. Does Steingass mention examples from existing texts?


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## CyrusSH

I think I found the verb: *damerdan* (دمردن) https://www.vajehyab.com/dehkhoda/دمردن


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## Alfaaz

colognial said:
			
		

> Alfaaz, thank you for posting the entries. I'm a bit puzzled about the first one: در آب افتادن to me simply means 'to fall into the water'. I can't seem able to think of an example where the verb has been used to suggest 'annihilation'. Does Steingass mention examples from existing texts?


 You're welcome. No, examples from literature unfortunately are not provided.

Just as a matter of interest, would the phrases I previously listed in post #9 (آب برد/بردہ or زیرِ آب) be used in Persian?


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## fdb

One of the many problems with Steingass's very old dictionary is that it (or rather its source, an 18th-century Indo-Persian lexicon) does not distinguish between literal and figurative meanings. I do not doubt that in the more extravagant sort of Persian poetry در آب افتادن could be used in the meaning "to be annihilated". It is however very misleading to give the latter as a dictionary "definition".


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## colognial

CyrusSH said:


> I think I found the verb: *damerdan* (دمردن) https://www.vajehyab.com/dehkhoda/دمردن


What a coincidence! The word is exactly what you are looking for, and has a nice sound to it which is a bonus. Even though it's out of a local dialect, it's still Persian enough, I'd say. If only one knew how it's conjugated in the Mȃzani dialect.


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## colognial

Alfaaz said:


> You're welcome. No, examples from literature unfortunately are not provided.
> 
> Just as a matter of interest, would the phrases I previously listed in post #9 (آب برد/بردہ or زیرِ آب) be used in Persian?



زیرِ آب بردن means to drag (sth) beneath the surface of the water. زیر آب برده is the past participle: dragged below the surface. زیر آب آنا is only partially Persian. آنا is not Persian. زیر آب of course means underwater.


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## Alfaaz

colognial said:
			
		

> زیرِ آب بردن means to drag (sth) beneath the surface of the water. زیر آب برده is the past participle: dragged below the surface. زیر آب آنا is only partially Persian. آنا is not Persian. زیر آب of course means underwater.


Thanks. It seemed آب برده would indicate _something_ _bearing (the weight/burden of) water_...from burdan...? I did not know the Persian equivalent for آنا - _to come_ (and didn't know if _amadan_ would work in this context, so just translated it into English above).


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## colognial

fdb said:


> One of the many problems with Steingass's very old dictionary is that it (or rather its source, an 18th-century Indo-Persian lexicon) does not distinguish between literal and figurative meanings. I do not doubt that in the more extravagant sort of Persian poetry در آب افتادن could be used in the meaning "to be annihilated". It is however very misleading to give the latter as a dictionary "definition".



fdb, I'm not sure if you're thinking of a figurative annihilation, but even if you are, I still doubt very much 'در آب افتادن' has such a figurative meaning of its own accord. Let's say it is possible, but highly improbable. One could use the verb in the sense of being annihilated if one so wished, but one would have to place it within the right context. For implying some sort of 'being wiped out', these might work better: بر باد رفتن (literally, to be blown away in the wind), به خاک سیاه نشستن (literally, to descend on dark earth) or خاکسترنشین شدن (to be reduced to living among cinders), به دیارعدم پیوستن (to join the land of non-existence).


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## colognial

Alfaaz said:


> Thanks. It seemed آب برده would indicate _something_ _bearing (the weight/burden of) water_...from burdan...? I did not know the Persian equivalent for آنا - _to come_ (and didn't know if _amadan_ would work in this context, so just translated it into English above).


 Not really, Alfaaz. آب برده (which is distinct from زیر آب برده) means 'lost in water', 'carried away by a current'. زیر آب آمدن is a possible construction, but does not imply drowning in the sense of dying of suffocation.


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## colognial

fdb said:


> In Parthian there is the noun nixāb “drowning” and the verb nixāf-, perhaps “to drown (trans.)”.


 fdb, if I wanted to write this Parthian word (nixāb) using the Persian alphabet, is this how I'd have to spell the word: نیخ آب ? What I mean to ask is, do the last two letters represent the Persian word آب ?


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## fdb

In Manichaean script it is written nxʼb. Presumably this involves the Indo-Iranian prefix ni- meaning “down”. I would therefore tentatively divide it into ni + xāb, but I have no good explanation for the second bit.


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