# The Use of "Tu"



## Anne

I am interested in learning when people in Spanish speaking countries start using the personal tense after meeting someone.

I understand it is immediately used in Spain but not Mexico.  How about Cuba, Honduras, and other places?

Anne


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## concafeina

Hello! i know that in Argentina or Uruguay they use "vos", but in many countries like Ecuador they use it too, but many times.

In Spain we use "Tu" when we talk in a home environment, but if we talk, for exemple, with our boss (it's common to say) we called him/her "Usted"

I hope help you.
Best regards


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## cubaMania

> ...but if we talk, for example, with our boss (it's common to say) we called him/her "Usted"


Ah, but if you say "Usted" to your boss, what does your boss say to you? Usted or Tú?


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## Fernando

cubaMania said:


> Ah, but if you say "Usted" to your boss, what does your boss say to you? Usted or Tú?



The use is symmetrical among adults. If your boss decide to address you with "tú" you are entitled to speak with "tú".

"¿Qué quiere que haga, Sr. Peláez?"

"Ve a Mantenimiento y diles que o arreglan las calderas o la tenemos" (en lugar de "Vaya a (...) y dígales...).

"Vale, ¿quiereS alguna cosa más?"


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## Stiannu

Sorry, is this thread only about Spanish?
'Cause I think it would be interesting to compare different languages... 
In fact I noticed that in some languages (Portuguese? French?) the use of formal pronouns is more widespread that, for example, in Italian. In bossa nova songs the singer often declare his love using *vocé* (the equivalent of usted), and in France's "nouvelle vague" films (at least in the 60s and the 70s), young couples of the same age who maybe are still not very acquainted, but are already lovers, use the *vous* form ("je vous aime"). This sounds a little bit absurd in Italian.


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## Fernando

Você is not an equivalent to "usted" in Brasil. 
Informal: Eu amo a você (BR). Eu amo a ti (Eu che amo?) (PT).
Formal: Eu amo à senhora.


Please, any Portuguese/Brazilian could confirm?

"Je vous aime" (la amo) it would be very strange also in Spanish (except if we were in 19th century).


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## palomnik

Stiannu, In modern Brazilian Portuguese _você _has completely superseded _tu _in just about every application except prayers, maybe.  for all practical purposes it's like English _you._

One advice given to English speakers learning Spanish is that in Latin America anyway, if you would address somebody by their first name in English, then you would use _tu _(or _vos) _with that person in Spanish.  By and large, this seems to be true, based on my experience, but it's definitely not true in France, Russia, or even Spain, as far as I can tell.


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## mjmuak

Fernando said:


> The use is symmetrical among adults. If your boss decide to address you with "tú" you are entitled to speak with "tú".
> 
> "¿Qué quiere que haga, Sr. Peláez?"
> 
> "Ve a Mantenimiento y diles que o arreglan las calderas o la tenemos" (en lugar de "Vaya a (...) y dígales...).
> 
> "Vale, ¿quiereS alguna cosa más?"


 
Fernando, that is not always like that, if I'm 30 and my boss is 30 years older than me, I would never treat him/her with "tú" unless, somehow, he/she makes me feels or tells me that I can (IT'S THE BOSS!!).  Even if it was a person of my age (or even younger), I would always wait and make sure that it is ok to say "tú". It would always depend on his/her attitude towards me and the rest of the employees.

I think that in the south of Spain we  use "usted" less often than in the rest of the country. Unless it is very clear that you should show respect (an old person, for example), I never say "usted", it sounds very forced to me. I only use "usted" when I talk to the elders or when I feel that the other person is "above" me at some level (I ususally feel that someone wearing a suit is marking a difference between us); for exemple, when I go to the doctor's, I always say "usted", even if the doctor is only a few years older than me, or if I had to seek advice from a lawyer, I would always say "usted". When I was in secondary school I used to say "usted" to the teachers who were over 35 or so, and with younger teachers I always hesitated and waited to see how warm they were when speaking to us. At university, the year gap between students and teachers is smaller so I hardly ever said "usted" to a teacher, only to those who were fifty or sixty or those who really showed that they wished to be treated as "usted". I remember I teacher of around 40 who used to call us  "usted, el de la tercera fila", always in a very cold way, so obviously you couldn't call him "tú"; however, another teacher of 55 or so, was very warm and close, which showed that it was ok if you wanted to call him "tú".

My mother, who is 48, hates it when someone says "usted" because it makes her feel old.

Just my opinion.

Regards


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## Outsider

Fernando said:


> Você is not an equivalent to "usted" in Brasil.
> Informal: Eu amo a você (BR). Eu amo (a) ti (Eu te amo) (PT).
> Formal: Eu amo a senhora.
> 
> Please, any Portuguese/Brazilian could confirm?


You are absolutely correct, Fernando. _Você_ and _usted_ are etymologically related, but they are not equivalent in terms of formality in modern Spanish and modern Portuguese. When Brazilians address each other as _você_ they are not being formal, quite the opposite.



			
				Stiannu said:
			
		

> [...] and in France's "nouvelle vague" films (at least in the 60s and the 70s), young couples of the same age who maybe are still not very acquainted, but are already lovers, use the vous form ("je vous aime"). This sounds a little bit absurd in Italian.


That was the 60s and the 70s. I think that modern French people would say _Je t'aime_.


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## Fernando

Do you mean your boss, or the doctor could use "tú" with you and you still would use "usted"?. That is bad manners to me. 

I drop the "usted" in the very moment the other guy uses the "tú". To me, "usted" is a way to show MUTUAL respect.


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## Fernando

Thank you for the corrections, Outsider.


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## faranji

palomnik said:


> Stiannu, In modern Brazilian Portuguese _você _has *completely *superseded _tu _in just about every application except prayers, maybe.


 
_Tu_ is widely used nowadays in several regions of Brazil such as Rio de Janeiro, some southern states, Maranhão or the Bahian Baixo Sul, to name a few.


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## Stiannu

Outsider said:


> That was the 60s and the 70s. I think that modern French people would say _Je t'aime_.


 
Yes, I think you're right, but still it's surprising to see two young people in the heart of post-68 Paris saying "je vous aime", etc. as in the movie "La maman et la putain" by Jean Eustache (where liberated love and _ménage à trois_ are shown, by the way; or maybe it was a provocation by the director?)...


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## mjmuak

Fernando said:


> Do you mean your boss, or the doctor could use "tú" with you and you still would use "usted"?. That is bad manners to me.
> 
> I drop the "usted" in the very moment the other guy uses the "tú". To me, "usted" is a way to show MUTUAL respect.


 

Yes, unless I feel sure that I can say "tú", I would never say it to my boss, even if he/she called me "tú" . They are above me, so they "don't" need to show that kind of respect. 

And with the doctor, before even entering their office and seeing how old they are, I know I am going to start speaking with "usted", and only if the doctor is very young (and cute!!) and warm and close, I would use "tú".

I don't know how old you are, Fernando, but  I am 23 and probably in twenty years I won't feel that I should use "usted" with the doctors if they are calling me "tú". But right now, I always feel I have to, weather they are 50 or 27, and they will most of the times use "tú" with me, but I will always reply with a "usted".


Regards


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## faranji

Funny thing is, in Spain, at least in certain enviroments, _usted _is becoming almost the opposite of what it used to mean. I heard some people addressing their bosses and superiors with a casual "tú" but then using _usted_ when dealing with their janitors, cleaning ladies, menial workers, etc., even though they know them since time immemorial.


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## mjmuak

faranji said:


> Funny thing is, in Spain, at least in certain enviroments, _usted _is becoming almost the opposite of what it used to mean. I heard some people addressing their bosses and superiors with a casual "tú" but then using _usted_ when dealing with their janitors, cleaning ladies, menial workers, etc., even though they know them since time immemorial.


 
Very interesting, faranji, it is true, I think it is problably a way to show that even though the cleaning ladies/men (some men clean too!!) are below them and have (according to our society) a not very prestigious job, they are very respectul with them.



Please feel free to correct my mistakes!!


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## Fernando

mjmuak said:


> I don't know how old you are, Fernando, but  I am 23 and probably in twenty years I won't feel that I should use "usted" with the doctors if they are calling me "tú". But right now, I always feel I have to, weather they are 50 or 27, and they will most of the times use "tú" with me, but I will always reply with a "usted".



For the purpose of this thread, I will only say I am older than you. I will not give you my exact age since all women in the forum think I am a 20 Latin lover and I do not want to break many hearts at a time.

Anyhow, I like using usted (and being addressed), but I would never admit NONE to address me with tú when I am speaking with usted. Doctors are not (for sure) an exception.

For subordinates or gardeners or waiters or so on, I think there are two ways of bad manners:

- To stay with usted after 20 years treatment. It is a way to keep them at a distance.

- To begin with "tú" with a false friendship.

In companies it is usual a universal "tú" (except with top-level bosses), which DOES IT NOT MEAN democracy is universal (rather the opposite).


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## Anne

Well I am definitely an older woman by any measurement, and in my years of Spanish study, I've been addressed as "tu" one time by a young stranger and didn't like it.

Does anyone know the custom in Cuba?

Thanks to everyone -

Anne


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## HUMBERT0

The same thing happens here, I address the cleaning lady, janitors as usted, and my boss as tú, however my boss is only a little bit older and the cleaning lady is much older and you do use usted to maintain a respectful distance.

  But in general terms I only use usted with people older than me, and like mjmuak said with a doctor, or layer, etc. or to address my parents, with everybody else I use tú.


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## faranji

Fernando said:


> Anyhow, I like using usted (and being addressed), but I would never admit NONE to address me with tú when I am speaking with usted.


 
Same here, Fernando, I sympathize wholeheartedly. I especially hate being _tuteado_ by one of those tele-vendors or telephone operators or whaddayacallem who's never seen me or talked to me in his/her life. 
Sad thing is, apparently, it's not always their fault. Once I asked one of them why did she insist in that cloying hollow familiarity when I was addressing her by means of a polite and respectful _usted_. She said she was sorry but that's how they were instructed to address all customers. 
I assume it's probably the same with those _tú_-toting waiters and waitresses who greet you as if you were their kindergarten long-lost best buddie.


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## argentina84

concafeina said:


> Hello! i know that in Argentina or Uruguay they use "vos", but in many countries like Ecuador they use it too, but many times.
> 
> In Spain we use "Tu" when we talk in a home environment, but if we talk, for exemple, with our boss (it's common to say) we called him/her "Usted"


 

Completely right concafeina! We almost never use "usted" and never use "tu" in Argentina! And verb inflexions also vary because if it. E.g.:

*Tu **eres* bueno 
*Vos sos* bueno


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## Loob

Interesting posts!  I first went to Spain nearly forty years ago, when the distinctions were clear-cut: you used "tu" to friends your own (young) age and to children younger than you; you used "Usted" to everyone else.

Now, the use of "tu" seems to have spread: I'm surprised, at the age of 50+, to be addressed as "tu" in some (not all) shops.  Should I call the waiters in our Spanish timeshare, where we have been visiting for 20+ years, ""tu" or "Usted?

Loob


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## chics

I agree whith Fernando, at least it's like this in the north of Spain. Here "usted" is almost stinguish. My friends and I don't use it with our boss, we didn't use it with teachers (except some old ones, because they also spoke us with "you", and boys and girs from nun's schools), we don't use it any more with most of old people (they're upset becaue of we're calling them "old")...

Now it's a formule of distance, used only to servers, as they have to say "usted" as well; and in some protocollary situations (interviews to a politician or royal family, when going to an embassy, etc.).


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## PABLO DE SOTO

I  still use *usted* when I address to someone with whom I have no relationship, say a passenger next to me on a plane, if he or she is older than 30.
When I go shopping I expect that the assistants call me *usted *and they generally do it so, and I don't like it if they call me *tú*
I am 43.


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## Lusitania

mjmuak said:


> Fernando, that is not always like that, if I'm 30 and my boss is 30 years older than me, I would never treat him/her with "tú" unless, somehow, he/she makes me feels or tells me that I can (IT'S THE BOSS!!). Even if it was a person of my age (or even younger), I would always wait and make sure that it is ok to say "tú". It would always depend on his/her attitude towards me and the rest of the employees.
> 
> I think that in the south of Spain we use "usted" less often than in the rest of the country. Unless it is very clear that you should show respect (an old person, for example), I never say "usted", it sounds very forced to me. I only use "usted" when I talk to the elders or when I feel that the other person is "above" me at some level (I ususally feel that someone wearing a suit is marking a difference between us); for exemple, when I go to the doctor's, I always say "usted", even if the doctor is only a few years older than me, or if I had to seek advice from a lawyer, I would always say "usted". When I was in secondary school I used to say "usted" to the teachers who were over 35 or so, and with younger teachers I always hesitated and waited to see how warm they were when speaking to us. At university, the year gap between students and teachers is smaller so I hardly ever said "usted" to a teacher, only to those who were fifty or sixty or those who really showed that they wished to be treated as "usted". I remember I teacher of around 40 who used to call us "usted, el de la tercera fila", always in a very cold way, so obviously you couldn't call him "tú"; however, another teacher of 55 or so, was very warm and close, which showed that it was ok if you wanted to call him "tú".
> 
> My mother, who is 48, hates it when someone says "usted" because it makes her feel old.
> 
> Just my opinion.
> 
> Regards


 

I fully agree regarding the Portuguese. If it's a person I don't know I will say "Você" "o Senhor" like in "usted". If the person says that I can give him/her the "tu" treatment I will, if not, I'll keep the formal way. 
I also don't like people calling me "você" as it makes me feel older.


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## panjabigator

In Hindi, there are several levels of formality.  Tu (informal), Tum (somewhat more formal) and Aap (formal).  With our parents we use Aap.  With friends and age-close family members, we use tum.  And with close-close friends and children, we use tu.   I have no problem being formal; it is always a good thing to do (even when it is with a young child).  I also prefer to be referred to formally with strangers.  It would be odd if someone said "tum" to me on the street that didn't know me, and extremely rude if they used "tu" (unless of course it was an old person).


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## Harry Batt

As far back as 1948 when I attended l'univérsité catholique d'louest at Angers at age 55 after two days I gave up using vousvoyer and joined the rest of the students in "tu." It has been that way every since. Nobody has complained. I'm sure it will happen.


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## faranji

panjabigator said:


> In Hindi, there are several levels of formality. Tu (informal), Tum (somewhat more formal) and Aap (formal). With our parents we use Aap. With friends and age-close family members, we use tum. And with close-close friends and children, we use tu.


 
And also with God, right, Panja?


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## elizabeth_b

Lusitania said:


> I fully agree regarding the Portuguese. If it's a person I don't know I will say "Você" "o Senhor" like in "usted". If the person says that I can give him/her the "tu" treatment I will, if not, I'll keep the formal way.
> I also don't like people calling me "você" as it makes me feel older.


 
Hi Lusitania, 

     Then we can say that in Portugal Portuguese the "você" is equivalent to the Spanish "usted"?


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## JamesM

Harry Batt said:


> As far back as *1948 when I attended* l'univérsité catholique d'louest at Angers *at age 55* after two days I gave up using vousvoyer and joined the rest of the students in "tu." It has been that way every since. Nobody has complained. I'm sure it will happen.


 
Sorry... this is a bit off-topic, but wouldn't that make you 114 years old? 

I was just recently in France for the first time.  In the country and outlying areas it seemed like the adults always spoke to me with "vous" still, although a college-age clerk at a car rental agency used "tu".


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## panjabigator

faranji said:


> And also with God, right, Panja?



Right.  With God, you are supposed to have an intimiately close relationship.  So Tu.  But I have heard people use aap too.  Personal preference, perhaps?


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## mitchmcc

Hello all, and thanks for this interesting discussion.

I, too, have shared the confusion about how and when to use "tu" vs. "Ud.", and asking native speakers (mostly _compañeros de trabajo de america latina_) has not helped.

So here is what I decided.  It may be a little bit old-fashioned, but so what?  I also realize it might not work in some locations, such as Argentina.

I am going to try and use the old rules that were always taught:

*Use Ud. to older persons, and to any persons in a position where you want to show respect.* 

Remember, at any time, both parties can agree to use "tu" if they want.   If co-workers all use "tu", then I will too.  It is not that big of a deal.  I mostly want my Spanish to be correct!!!

Finally, if someone (as I am sure happens) wants to use "tu" to me as a put-down, well I generally try to avoid people like that as much as possible.  I am certainly not going to lose any sleep over it.

How does this sound for a strategy?

Mitch


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## Outsider

It sounds like what a native speaker would do.


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## mitchmcc

>>>It sounds like what a native speaker would do. 

Outsider,

Obrigado!

Mitch


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## argentina84

mitchmcc said:


> I am going to try and use the old rules that were always taught:
> 
> *Use Ud. to older persons, and to any persons in a position where you want to show respect.*
> 
> Mitch


 
That is the safest way to address people..and..if they do not want to be treated as Ud...they will tell you.

Do not worry much about it. 

Good luck!


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## Jocaste

I live in the south of France and people do say "_tu_" easily, more easily than in the north anyway  (people are more welcoming and amiable in the south ).
But overall, anywhere in France, in the street for example, two people (adults > 25/30) may probably address each other using "_vous_" whereas two people (< 25/30) may rather say "_tu_" (if they don't know each other I mean).
It depends on the situation.
I say "_tu_" to people who are as old as me, but I'm only 20. If I were 40, I think I'd rather say "_vous_".
That's really a matter of point of view ^^


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## Nizo

Interesting thread!  Just a comment from a native English speaker:  If the familiar/formal is at such a level of debate among native Spanish (Portuguese, etc.) speakers, please always remember to have sympathy on us poor foreigners when we choose the wrong one!  

By the way, I had a French friend who once told me he thought it was very strange and awkward to have only one form (_you_) in English.  He was uncomfortable addressing a dignitary and a dog with the same word!  We used to have a familiar form (_thou/thee_), but that ended some 300 years ago...


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## jinti

Nizo said:


> We used to have a familiar form (_thou/thee_), but that ended some 300 years ago...


Well, it didn't *quite* end.  That form persists among some plain-speaking Quakers (Friends) to this day. In fact, a few weeks ago, I was at a Friends Gathering where about half the people used_ thee/thy._ (We don't use _thou_, though, and for some reason we always use 3rd person verbs, not 2nd person, with _thee_. ) And just tonight I came home to find a couple messages from a Friend on my answering machine -- "I'll call thee again later", and that sort of thing. So it's still around and in use. 

But the thing is, _thee_ is used indiscriminately for "dignitaries and dogs"  because of Friends' emphasis on equality, so having it in my vocabulary doesn't really help me choose between _tú_ and _usted,_ anyway....

(And _you_ is reserved for the plural, which was its original use before it was appropriated to show additional respect to some singular people. )


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## MarX

Stiannu said:


> Sorry, is this thread only about Spanish?
> 'Cause I think it would be interesting to compare different languages...
> In fact I noticed that in some languages (Portuguese? French?) the use of formal pronouns is more widespread that, for example, in Italian. In bossa nova songs the singer often declare his love using *vocé* (the equivalent of usted), and in France's "nouvelle vague" films (at least in the 60s and the 70s), young couples of the same age who maybe are still not very acquainted, but are already lovers, use the *vous* form ("je vous aime"). This sounds a little bit absurd in Italian.


Comparing the use of pronouns in other languages is exactly something I wouldn't do too much. It would only lead to confusion. Even within the same language there are variations.

I think it's ridiculous to insist on using "usted" or "ni" in Spain or Sweden respectively, just because you would use "vous" or "Sie" in similar situations in France or Germany.


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## VivaReggaeton88

Well, from my time of learning about cultures and ways of speaking i think i would use *vos* with central americans (Argentina & Uruguay included) that are around my age or that I know;* tú* with people that are around my age/that I know (the rest of the hispanic world) and *usted* with all older people that I want to show respect to. In central america it is better to use vos than tú because if two men are heard using tú, they are presumed as gay. Heads up for ppl traveling there


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