# Urdu/Hindi: Does the oblique case always go before the nominative case?



## Darraptor

In the example sentence: The water of these wells is cold / In kuom ka pani thanda hai , I've noticed that it starts off with the oblique case wells and not the nominative case water. This kinda bothers me because water is first mentioned so I thought water should go first. My initial thought was the sentence should be like "Pani thanda in kuom hai" which I tried translating as water is cold in the wells but it doesn't sound right and my translation is off. If the oblique case doesn't always go before the nominative case then is there a rule for deciding the word ordering of the cases(i.e does the sentence always have to start with nominative because that is the subject. My understanding is that the oblique case is anything but the nominative case so I dont think the oblique case can ever be the subject


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## amiramir

Darraptor said:


> "Pani thanda in kuom hai"



First point: while Hindi/Urdu word order is somewhat flexible, the unmarked order always has adjectives before nouns-- as such, it would be thandaa paanii (like English), not paanii thandaa (unless it's predicative of course. The water is cold would be paanii thandaa hai, but that's not the same as just saying 'cold water,' which is thandaa paanii).

Second point: it's not a question of which case (in the sense of nominative vs oblique). It's a question of how one analyses the subject:

- The water is cold: paanii thandaa hai
- The blue water is cold: niilaa paanii thanda hai
- The water in the jug is cold: jag kaa paani thandaa hai
- The blue water in the jug is cold: jag kaa niilaa paani thandaa hai
- The blue water in the yellow jug is cold: piilee (OBL.) jag (OBL) kaa niilaa paani thandaa hai.


The above is unmarked for word order. 

I suppose it does look from the above the OBL goes first, but I could easily come up with lots of examples where nominative starts the sentence:
- I saw the blue water in the yellow jug: MaiN (NOM) ne piile (OBL) jag (OBL) meiN niilaa paani dekhaa

I fear I am not coming up with a great framework for understanding this. Perhaps someone else can do a better job.


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## phubaba

To preface this answer, I am learning Urdu and I have also struggled with the Urdu possessive construction as well as word ordering.

Firstly to answer your last question, word order in Urdu can generally all over the place as long as the verb is at the end. Subject object verb. object subject verb are totally fine. The word order places importance in the sentence from right to left from the verb. Notice in all of AmirAmir's sentences thandaa is the closest to the verb. Its not a coincidence that this is also the translation of the predictive form of the English adjective. <Edited out example sentence saying you could move the adjective around>. If you are reading Urdu poetry you will see word order moved around all the time, with subtle differences in meaning.

Further, English has a variety of ways to say what you are saying: The well of the water... The water's well.... The water in the well... Urdu just has one way, the possessive construction, which is possessive kaa/ke/ki possession.

Separately, to help you with "This kinda bothers me because water is first mentioned" question, I have one approach for you to help understand how to translate English possessives to urdu possessives and one trick. Maybe this will help you in your translating efforts?

*Approach*:
Urdu possessive follows English "of construction" in reverse order:
First thing to note is that English is left to right towards the verb whereas Urdu goes right to left away from the verb. Therefore left to right in English is right to left in Urdu.

The two examples below are the same Of/Ka forms and their word order is the same when you consider that Urdu and English are flipped. So in English the water comes first and (from the perspective of right to left) in Urdu the water also comes fist.

English:
left to right towards verb: the water of the well ....

Urdu: (starts from the right)
right to left away from verb: kuaNveN kaa pani .... (fixed oblique plural per below)

Note even in the "right to left" nature of the possessive the "word importance" pops out with the possession being more important in the sentence than the possessive object

*Trick*:
The "apostrophe possessive" construction in English is not present in Urdu BUT in the way the words are said... they come out in the same order.
right to left towards verb: the well's water ....  kuaNveN kaa pani. (fixed oblique per below)

So this might make it easier if you are translating something in your head.



Lastly, are you a native English speaker?


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## amiramir

phubaba said:


> thandaa jag kaa paani hai" is also valid urdu.




For the purpose of posterity, I'm pretty sure this is not valid Urdu, but someone more learned than I will chime in if I am wrong. I mean, what is supposed to be cold? If paanii, I'm not sure this works. Even if it's the jug that is cold, it still doesn't work for me (unless it's thande).


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## phubaba

definitely would love some more clarity and a reference. I have searched through introductory urdu c naim and haven't found anything. I'll check my urdu grammar book at home later.  -- Digital South Asia Library "word order adjectives". 

also word order specifically;
http://dsal.uchicago.edu/digbooks/digpager.html?BOOKID=PK1983.N2_1999_V1&object=174


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## marrish

amiramir said:


> For the purpose of posterity, I'm pretty sure this is not valid Urdu, but someone more learned than I will chime in if I am wrong. I mean, what is supposed to be cold? If paanii, I'm not sure this works. Even if it's the jug that is cold, it still doesn't work for me (unless it's thande).


Thanks, the posterity will be warned. It should be jug kaa (from a/the jug) ThanDaa paanii. ThanDe jug (the jug is cold) kaa paanii. na'e jug kaa paanii. na'e jug kaa garm paanii etc. etc. 


phubaba said:


> right to left away from verb: kuaN ka pani ....


Here too should be *kuNweN kaa* paanii  (in two places).


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## Darraptor

phubaba said:


> To preface this answer, I am learning Urdu and I have also struggled with the Urdu possessive construction as well as word ordering.
> 
> Firstly to answer your last question, word order in Urdu can generally all over the place as long as the verb is at the end. Subject object verb. object subject verb are totally fine. The word order places importance in the sentence from right to left from the verb. Notice in all of AmirAmir's sentences thandaa is the closest to the verb. Its not a coincidence that this is also the translation of the predictive form of the English adjective. <Edited out example sentence saying you could move the adjective around>. If you are reading Urdu poetry you will see word order moved around all the time, with subtle differences in meaning.
> 
> Further, English has a variety of ways to say what you are saying: The well of the water... The water's well.... The water in the well... Urdu just has one way, the possessive construction, which is possessive kaa/ke/ki possession.
> 
> Separately, to help you with "This kinda bothers me because water is first mentioned" question, I have one approach for you to help understand how to translate English possessives to urdu possessives and one trick. Maybe this will help you in your translating efforts?
> 
> *Approach*:
> Urdu possessive follows English "of construction" in reverse order:
> First thing to note is that English is left to right towards the verb whereas Urdu goes right to left away from the verb. Therefore left to right in English is right to left in Urdu.
> 
> The two examples below are the same Of/Ka forms and their word order is the same when you consider that Urdu and English are flipped. So in English the water comes first and (from the perspective of right to left) in Urdu the water also comes fist.
> 
> English:
> left to right towards verb: the water of the well ....
> 
> Urdu: (starts from the right)
> right to left away from verb: kuaNveN kaa pani .... (fixed oblique plural per below)
> 
> Note even in the "right to left" nature of the possessive the "word importance" pops out with the possession being more important in the sentence than the possessive object
> 
> *Trick*:
> The "apostrophe possessive" construction in English is not present in Urdu BUT in the way the words are said... they come out in the same order.
> right to left towards verb: the well's water ....  kuaNveN kaa pani. (fixed oblique per below)
> 
> So this might make it easier if you are translating something in your head.
> 
> 
> 
> Lastly, are you a native English speaker?



I am a native English speaker. The right to left logic makes sense. How would I go about it with with the sentence "I want you to help me learn urdu" By the right to left object I might say something like Mujhe apki madat urdu seekne ki chaata hai because me is the closest to the verb (learn) followed by help. However I think this sentence is wrong and it should be something like mai chaata hoon ke mujhe apki madat seekna hai? Again something seems off


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## amiramir

Darraptor said:


> I want you to help me learn urdu



MaiN chaahata huN (chaahungaa, is what I would be more likely to say) ki aap urdu siikhne meiN meri madad kareN. 

Perhaps there is a more idiomatic way of phrasing this-- if so, I'm sure someone will correct me. 

Being a native English speaker, you may have learned Spanish or French in school. You will recall your sentence above will require the subjunctive in both languages-- same deal in Hindi (i.e. kareN). The complicating factor here the way helping someone is  constructed in Hindi-Urdu (kisii chiiz meiN kisii kii madad karna).


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## Darraptor

amiramir said:


> MaiN chaahata huN (chaahungaa, is what I would be more likely to say) ki aap urdu siikhne meiN meri madad kareN.
> 
> Perhaps there is a more idiomatic way of phrasing this-- if so, I'm sure someone will correct me.
> 
> Being a native English speaker, you may have learned Spanish or French in school. You will recall your sentence above will require the subjunctive in both languages-- same deal in Hindi (i.e. kareN). The complicating factor here the way helping someone is  constructed in Hindi-Urdu (kisii chiiz meiN kisii kii madad karna).



How do you know your supposed to add ne to the verb in this case? The only time I know when to do that is in a sentence like "Mujhe zyda sone ki zaroorat hai". Maybe its because if the verb is followed by a postposition like mein or se etc


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## amiramir

Darraptor said:


> How do you know your supposed to add ne to the verb in this case? The only time I know when to do that is in a sentence like "Mujhe zyda sone ki zaroorat hai". Maybe its because if the verb is followed by a postposition like mein or se etc




Yes, that's exactly right. The verb is declined due to the post-position. This is very common in Hindi and you will see it in any grammar book.


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## Darraptor

amiramir said:


> Yes, that's exactly right. The verb is declined due to the post-position. This is very common in Hindi and you will see it in any grammar book.



How do you know mein goes after sikhne? I don't see the word in for the sentence "I want you to help me learn urdu"? I think a problem of mine is not correctly adding the subjunctive and the postposition to the verb due to me not recognizing when to add the subjunctive in urdu


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## phubaba

English has a zillion ways to say it. I want your help with urdu. I want your help to learn urdu. I want your help in learning urdu. I want your help with learning urdu. I want you to help me learn urdu. I want you to help me in learning urdu.

The last one is the urdu translation. The English has an implicit <that> which is hidden but shown in urdu. I want that you help me learn urdu.

maiN chata huN kii .... (in subjunctive). Subjunctive is used because it is polite. But you could use karo (with someone you know closely)/kijie(formal) as well. Usually subjunctive is used with wanting something because it is uncertain that it will happen subjunctive is also used with uncertain outcomes. I want that I become strong. MaiN chata huN ka mojhe taqat ae

The rules for which ka/se/meiN go with verbs in urdu have to be memorized.

<who> ki <with what> meiN madad karna

but lets be honest I have used ke sath instead of meiN many times and my wife understands me.


Mujhe apki urdu seekne mieN madad karni chaie would mean (I believe) I would like to help you learn urdu.


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## littlepond

phubaba said:


> English has a zillion ways to say it. I want your help with urdu. I want your help to learn urdu. I want your help in learning urdu. I want your help with learning urdu. I want you to help me learn urdu. I want you to help me in learning urdu.
> 
> The last one is the urdu translation. The English has an implicit <that> which is hidden but shown in urdu. I want that you help me learn urdu.



Well, Urdu-Hindi also have a zillion ways to say it, and the "that" part can be implicit in Urdu or Hindi too.



phubaba said:


> maiN chata huN kii .... (in subjunctive). Subjunctive is used because it is polite. But you could use karo (with someone you know closely)/kijie(formal) as well.



Well, not really: it is "aap" that makes the sentence formal in the previous example. Subjunctive in itself has nothing do with formality: you want someone to do something, so it's subjective - and hence subjunctive. (Unless you want someone to do something imperatively.)



phubaba said:


> but lets be honest I have used ke sath instead of meiN many times and my wife understands me.



Your wife understands you does not mean that the rest of the world will understand such a construction or that it becomes correct. "ke saath" to replace "meN" is simply wrong.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]


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## littlepond

amiramir said:


> First point: while Hindi/Urdu word order is somewhat flexible, the unmarked order always has adjectives before nouns-- as such, it would be thandaa paanii (like English), not paanii thandaa (unless it's predicative of course. The water is cold would be paanii thandaa hai, but that's not the same as just saying 'cold water,' which is thandaa paanii).



A very good answer by amiramir jii: the adjective, unless you are making up poetry or talking in riddles, usually goes before the noun, it's as simple as that. What kind of "paanii"? The one from the wells. So, "the one from the wells water is cold". That is to say, "These wells' water is cold".


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## amiramir

phubaba said:


> maiN chata huN kii .... (in subjunctive). Subjunctive is used because it is polite. But you could use karo (with someone you know closely)/kijie(formal) as well. Usually subjunctive is used with wanting something because it is uncertain that it will happen subjunctive is also used with uncertain outcomes. I want that I become strong. MaiN chata huN ka mojhe taqat ae



To build on littlepondji's answer (again, for posterity, as I have learned so much from past threads), you are conflating subjunctive (karuuN, kare, karo, kareN) and the imperative (kar, karo, kijiye, kijiyega) here. 



Darraptor said:


> How do you know mein goes after sikhne?




Because, as I said above, that's how it just is in Hindi when talking about helping: "The complicating factor here the way helping someone is constructed in Hindi-Urdu (kisii chiiz meiN kisii kii madad karna)."


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## marrish

No, it is not like this. Have a look at this description, it can help you with understanding {samajhne meN}

[EDIT: I can see that it took me too long to make the table! Darraptor has just got the solution and deleted his query]

_maiN chaahtaa huuN kih aap Urdu siikhne meN merii madad kareN_


*word**part of speech**form**meaning*chaahtaa huuNverb, present simple tense1st pers. sg. 'want' kihconjunction-thataappersonal pron. 2nd personnominative pl.'you' [singular or plural]urduunoun fem.nominative sg. 'Urdu' siikhneverb, infinitive; verbal noun oblique  'learning' meNpostposition- 'in' merii possesive pron. fem., 1st pers. sg.nominative 'my' madadnoun, f.nominative 'help'kareNverb, 2nd pers. pl.simple subjunctive [you] [would] do 


[TR]


[TD][/TD]
[TD]maiN[/TD]
[TD]personal pron. 1
st
 person[/TD]
[TD] nominative sg. [/TD]
[TD] I [/TD]


[/TR]


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## Darraptor

marrish said:


> No, it is not like this. Have a look at this description, it can help you with understanding {samajhne meN}
> 
> [EDIT: I can see that it took me too long to make the table! Darraptor has just got the solution and deleted his query]
> 
> _maiN chaahtaa huuN kih aap Urdu siikhne meN merii madad kareN_
> 
> 
> *word**part of speech**form**meaning*chaahtaa huuNverb, present simple tense1st pers. sg. 'want' kihconjunction-thataappersonal pron. 2nd personnominative pl.'you' [singular or plural]urduunoun fem.nominative sg. 'Urdu' siikhneverb, infinitive; verbal noun oblique  'learning' meNpostposition- 'in' merii possesive pron. fem., 1st pers. sg.nominative 'my' madadnoun, f.nominative 'help'kareNverb, 2nd pers. pl.simple subjunctive [you] [would] do
> 
> 
> [TR]
> 
> 
> [TD][/TD]
> [TD]maiN[/TD]
> [TD]personal pron. 1
> st
> person[/TD]
> [TD] nominative sg. [/TD]
> [TD] I [/TD]
> 
> 
> [/TR]



I had forgotten that madat is a noun and not a verb and because of that we needed to attach kareN to do the action of helping. With that being said would it be a fair assumption to say you add the subjunctive to a nominative noun that can act as a verb(if that makes sense), assuming that we want that noun like verb to act as a verb in the sentence?


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## littlepond

Darraptor said:


> I had forgotten that madat is a noun and not a verb and because of that we needed to attach kareN to do the action of helping. With that being said would it be a fair assumption to say you add the subjunctive to a nominative noun that can act as a verb(if that makes sense), assuming that we want that noun like verb to act as a verb in the sentence?



The subjunctive has nothing to do with "nouns acting as verbs" (and "madad" _cannot _act as a verb!).

"maiN chaahtaa hooN ki aap chaleN" - I would like that you walk. "chaleN" is the (sing.) subjunctive form here of the verb "chalnaa" (to walk). Subjunctive has only to do with one's emotionality, one's subjectiveness: it has little to do with the presence of x, y or z syntactic elements in a sentence.


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## Darraptor

littlepond said:


> The subjunctive has nothing to do with "nouns acting as verbs" (and "madad" _cannot _act as a verb!).
> 
> "maiN chaahtaa hooN ki aap chaleN" - I would like that you walk. "chaleN" is the (sing.) subjunctive form here of the verb "chalnaa" (to walk). Subjunctive has only to do with one's emotionality, one's subjectiveness: it has little to do with the presence of x, y or z syntactic elements in a sentence.



If I changed the sentence to main chaata hoon ki aap chaalna would the meaning be I want you to walk?


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## amiramir

Darraptor said:


> If I changed the sentence to main chaata hoon ki aap chaalna would the meaning be I want you to walk?



That would be an ungrammatical sentence. The verb in the subordinate clause must be in the subjunctive (as it would be in French, Spanish, Farsi, etc...). What you've done above is just stick the infinitive in without conjugating it.


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## Darraptor

amiramir said:


> That would be an ungrammatical sentence. The verb in the subordinate clause must be in the subjunctive (as it would be in French, Spanish, Farsi, etc...). What you've done above is just stick the infinitive in without conjugating it.



Ah this is the answer that I was looking for!


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