# 出勤したら / 出勤して



## theseus_

Context:
今日は会社に出勤したら、先週より人が増えていて嬉しかったです。

I suppose "たら" mean "after" here, it use for the sequence of events or actions, and I feel the useage of "たら"  is similar to the te-form. 
Is there any coincidence on meaning bwteen them?

Could "出勤したら" be replaced with "出勤して" in this context?


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## gengo

I would translate it as "When I went into work today..."

I would not use the -te form because it doesn't fit as well in this context, but I don't think it would be incorrect.  The -te form often implies cause, so using it here almost sounds like your going to work was the cause of the increase in people.  Using -tara just tells us the timing of when you found out about the increase.


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## SoLaTiDoberman

今日は会社に出勤したら、先週より人が増えていて嬉しかったです。...A
＝今日、会社に出勤したところ、先週より人が増えていて嬉しかったです。 ...B
=今日、会社に出勤してみると、先週より人が増えていて嬉しかったです。 ...C
=今日、会社に出勤してみたところ、先週より人が増えていて嬉しかったです。  ...D
=今日、会社に出勤して気が付いたことなのですが、先週より人が増えていて嬉しかったです。 ...E

≠今日は会社に出勤して、先週より人が増えていて嬉しかったです。....F 
F sounds weird.

今日は会社に出勤して、先週より人が増えているのに気づきました。嬉しい事です。...G
This sentence sounds natural.

今日、会社に出勤し、先週より人が増えていて嬉しかったです。...H 


F sounds funny probably because for one thing, the duplication of -te form in a single sentence.
H sounds a little bit better than F. H doesn't include the double -te form.
Yet, I feel that H is still a little strange.

G is okay.

A~E and also G are okay, and they convey the nuance:
When I went to work,* (I happened to notice that) *there were more people than the previous week. So I felt happy.
When I went to work,* (I unexpectedly noticed that) *there were more people than the previous week. So I felt happy.

F and H don't include such nuance.
In this context, the author was talking about "a little surprise" or "an unexpected happy thing," therefore, A~E and G would be preferable to F and H.

Does it make sense?
This is very hard for me to explain, but the original and your version are different, and yours doesn't fit with this context.


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## Joschl

gengo said:
			
		

> Using -tara just tells us the timing of when you found out about the increase.


Right.

The basic construction underlying the construction "[*V1*]-tara [*V2*]-te i-te" is "[*V1*]-tara [*V2*]-te i-ta" ('_When _[*V1*] happend, [*V2*] had already happend.'). An alternative construction would be "[*V1*]-ta tokoro [*V2*]-te i-ta." (see "B" above) "[*V1*]-tara" in this construction can not be replaced with "[*V1*]-te" (see "F" above).

The description of "-tara" on the following webpage might be helpful.


> *継起関係を表わす [...]「たら」*
> ９　[...]「～たら」は、S1、S2が、時間的に前後して起きた、という継起関係を表わすことができます。​(16) 部屋で｛[...]／勉強していたら｝、太郎が来ました。
> (17) 木村さんに手紙を｛[...]／出したら｝、すぐに返事がきました。
> 日本語 文法 条件：解説


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## theseus_

gengo said:


> I would translate it as "When I went into work today..."
> 
> I would not use the -te form because it doesn't fit as well in this context, but I don't think it would be incorrect.  The -te form often implies cause, so using it here almost sounds like your going to work was the cause of the increase in people.  Using -tara just tells us the timing of when you found out about the increase.


Thanks for the explanation.
I feel like the "-te form" that implies cause is kind of similar to "-shi", as SoLaTiDoberman's EX. "H" above. Right?
(I guess "-shi" also implies there are other causes that are not listed.)




SoLaTiDoberman said:


> 今日は会社に出勤したら、先週より人が増えていて嬉しかったです。...A
> ＝今日、会社に出勤したところ、先週より人が増えていて嬉しかったです。 ...B
> =今日、会社に出勤してみると、先週より人が増えていて嬉しかったです。 ...C
> =今日、会社に出勤してみたところ、先週より人が増えていて嬉しかったです。  ...D
> =今日、会社に出勤して気が付いたことなのですが、先週より人が増えていて嬉しかったです。 ...E
> 
> ≠今日は会社に出勤して、先週より人が増えていて嬉しかったです。....F
> F sounds weird.
> 
> 今日は会社に出勤して、先週より人が増えているのに気づきました。嬉しい事です。...G
> This sentence sounds natural.
> 
> 今日、会社に出勤し、先週より人が増えていて嬉しかったです。...H
> 
> 
> F sounds funny probably because for one thing, the duplication of -te form in a single sentence.
> H sounds a little bit better than F. H doesn't include the double -te form.
> Yet, I feel that H is still a little strange.
> 
> G is okay.
> 
> A~E and also G are okay, and they convey the nuance:
> When I went to work,* (I happened to notice that) *there were more people than the previous week. So I felt happy.
> When I went to work,* (I unexpectedly noticed that) *there were more people than the previous week. So I felt happy.
> 
> F and H don't include such nuance.
> In this context, the author was talking about "a little surprise" or "an unexpected happy thing," therefore, A~E and G would be preferable to F and H.


Thanks for so many examples.
I have learnt that the duplication of -te form is funny in a single sentence, and the nuance of "unexpected happy".




Joschl said:


> Right.
> 
> The basic construction underlying the construction "[*V1*]-tara [*V2*]-te i-te" is "[*V1*]-tara [*V2*]-te i-ta" ('_When _[*V1*] happend, [*V2*] had already happend.'). An alternative construction would be "[*V1*]-ta tokoro [*V2*]-te i-ta." (see "B" above) "[*V1*]-tara" in this construction can not be replaced with "[*V1*]-te" (see "F" above).
> 
> The description of "-tara" on the following webpage might be helpful.


Thanks for explaining in further detail and the useful link.


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## Joschl

I have just found another description of the construction "~たら ~た" that I think will suite the context of your sentence better than "9" (see #4 above) on the same web page. This one also takes account of the subtle nuance that _SoLaTiDoberman_ tried to convey in #3 (i.e., "(I happened to notice that)").


> [...]*「～たら」の発見用法*
> 15 [...]「～たら」には、S1の動作をした結果、S2のことがらを発見したという関係を表わす用法があります。​(25) 学校に｛[...]／行ったら｝、新入生がたくさんいました。
> ただし、この使い方の「～たら」は、くだけた話し方だという印象を与えますから、注意が必要です。
> 日本語 文法 条件：解説


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## theseus_

Joschl said:


> I have just found another description of the construction "~たら ~た" that I think will suite the context of your sentence better than "9" (see #4 above) on the same web page. This one also takes account of the subtle nuance that _SoLaTiDoberman_ tried to convey in #3 (i.e., "(I happened to notice that)").


Thanks again! 
I have tried to understand the difference between “継起関係” and “発見用法”.


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## Joschl

theseus_ said:
			
		

> I have tried to understand the difference between “継起関係” and “発見用法”.


I’m afraid I owe you an apology. I have just realised that interpretation 9 (継起関係) of the _tara_-construction (see my post #4) doesn't suite the context of your example in post #1. because in that example, *S2* happens before *S1* ("When *S1*" happend, (someone noticed that) *S2* had already happend.").

I can imagine that interpretation 15 (発見用法) is more likely if a _tara_-clause is combined with another clause in the perfective-resultative aspect in the past, which is true for your example, too.


> 今日は会社に出勤したら、先週より人が増えていて嬉しかったです。
> = 今日は会社に出勤したら、先週より人が増えていたので嬉しかったです。


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## theseus_

Joschl said:


> I’m afraid I owe you an apology. I have just realised that interpretation 9 (継起関係) of the _tara_-construction (see my post #4) doesn't suite the context of your example in post #1. because in that example, *S2* happens before *S1* ("When *S1*" happend, (someone noticed that) *S2* had already happend.").
> 
> I can imagine that interpretation 15 (発見用法) is more likely if a _tara_-clause is combined with another clause in the perfective-resultative aspect in the past, which is true for your example, too.


Ooh, it's so kind of you!
To be honest, before you told me, I didn't succeed in making clear the difference between “継起関係”(sequential events) and “発見用法”(detect/sniff out).
Now I know the key "*S2* happens before *S1*".


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## Joschl

I found a website that provides a bit more examples of "発見用法" of the "_~tara ~ta_"-construction yesterday.


> *「~タラ」の様々な用法* *４、発見（後件の述語はタ形）*
> ● デパートに行ったら、休みだった。
> ● 外に出たら、一面の銀世界でした。
> ● 買い物をしていたら、クラスメートのトムさんに会った。
> →前件の出来事がきっかけで、後件のことが分かったり、
> 予期していなかったことが起こった時に使います。
> 条件表現「～たら」 | 日本語教師の広場


Within the framework of 東京外国語大学, the third example would be classified as an example of "9 継起関係を表す用法"(see example (16) in post #4), I guess.

The webpage "~と/~たら【発見】" of the website "Hedgehog Japanese" explains a little more in detail (see と/たら（発見） JLPT Grammar (N3)).


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## theseus_

Joschl said:


> I found a website that provides a bit more examples of "発見用法" of the "_~tara ~ta_"-construction yesterday.
> ...
> The webpage "~と/~たら【発見】" of the website "Hedgehog Japanese" explains a little more in detail (see と/たら（発見） JLPT Grammar (N3)).


Many thanks for these useful links.

I have thought about the question (#1) again, now I guess _tara_-construction and _te_-form all can express "継起関係", but only _tara_-construction can used as "発見用法"(find out), and "たら" in the context #1 is obviously "発見用法", therefore,  "出勤したら" can't be replaced with "出勤して". 
Does it make sense?



Joschl said:


> Within the framework of 東京外国語大学, the third example would be classified as an example of "9 継起関係を表す用法"(see example (16) in post #4), I guess.


Does the third example refer to "買い物をしていたら、クラスメートのトムさんに会った。"? And "たら" actually be used as "継起関係" here?


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## Joschl

I was not careful enough and inadvertently misled you about the suitable interpretation here. 御免なさい。Yes, I would classify the sentence in your post #1 as an example of "発見用法". The "[*V*(i)]-tara" can be replaced with "[*V*(r)u] to".


> *15「～と」「～たら」の発見用法*
> (25) 学校に｛行くと／行ったら｝、新入生がたくさんいました。
> 日本語 文法 条件：解説



Replacing "[*V*(i)]-tara" with [*V*(i)-te] wouldn't make sense here. Even if your sentence in post #1 were an example of "継起関係を表す用法", I wouldn't recommend using "[*V*(i)]-te" instead of "[*V*(i)]-tara" or "[*V*(r)u] to".


> *9 継起関係を表わす「と」と「たら」*
> (16) 部屋で｛勉強していると／勉強していたら｝、太郎が来ました。
> (17) 木村さんに手紙を｛出すと／出したら｝、すぐに返事がきました。
> 日本語 文法 条件：解説



I think that the grammarians at 東京外国語大学 would classify the sentence "買い物をしていたら、クラスメートのトムさんに会った。as an example of "継起関係を表す用法" because that sentence has the same grammatical and temporal structure as their example sentence (16) above.


> (日本語教師の広場) 買い物を*していたら*、クラスメートのトムさんに会った [= 会いまし*た*]。
> (東京外国語大学) 部屋で｛[...]／勉強*していたら*｝、太郎が来まし*た*。



If I have understood the difference between "継起関係を表す用法" and "発見用法" in the framework of 東京外国語大学 correctly, the following sentences must be right examples.


> (継起関係を表す用法) 駅に着い*たら*/駅に着く*と*，妻が迎えに来てくれ*た*。
> (発見用法) 駅に着い*たら*/駅に着く*と*，妻が迎えに来てくれ*ていた*。


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## theseus_

Joschl said:


> I was not careful enough and inadvertently misled you about the suitable interpretation here. 御免なさい。Yes, I would classify the sentence in your post #1 as an example of "発見用法". The "[*V*(i)]-tara" can be replaced with "[*V*(r)u] to".
> 
> Replacing "[*V*(i)]-tara" with [*V*(i)-te] wouldn't make sense here. Even if your sentence in post #1 were an example of "継起関係を表す用法", I wouldn't recommend using "[*V*(i)]-te" instead of "[*V*(i)]-tara" or "[*V*(r)u] to".
> 
> I think that the grammarians at 東京外国語大学 would classify the sentence "買い物をしていたら、クラスメートのトムさんに会った。as an example of "継起関係を表す用法" because that sentence has the same grammatical and temporal structure as their example sentence (16) above.


It seems that I rely too much on an simple rule to solve the problem, that's my mistake.
Thanks for answering all my questions!



Joschl said:


> If I have understood the difference between "継起関係を表す用法" and "発見用法" in the framework of 東京外国語大学 correctly, the following sentences must be right examples.
> 
> (継起関係を表す用法) 駅に着い*たら*/駅に着く*と*，妻が迎えに来てくれ*た*。
> (発見用法) 駅に着い*たら*/駅に着く*と*，妻が迎えに来てくれ*ていた*。


And thanks for pointing out the key difference of tense, which I hadn't noticed.


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## FredYanagi

theseus_ said:


> It seems that I rely too much on an simple rule to solve the problem, that's my mistake.
> Thanks for answering all my questions!
> 
> 
> And thanks for pointing out the key difference of tense, which I hadn't noticed.


Really hard to explain (in English...) 

(継起関係を表す用法) 駅に着い*たら*/駅に着く*と*，妻が迎えに来てくれ*た*。 -> 一…就…（an action）
(発見用法) 駅に着い*たら*/駅に着く*と*，妻が迎えに来てくれ*ていた*。        -> …的時候…已經…(a status)
seems more understandable in my humble opinion🙂


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## theseus_

FredYanagi said:


> (継起関係を表す用法) 駅に着い*たら*/駅に着く*と*，妻が迎えに来てくれ*た*。 -> 一…就…（an action）
> (発見用法) 駅に着い*たら*/駅に着く*と*，妻が迎えに来てくれ*ていた*。        -> …的時候…已經…(a status)


Thanks for explaining it in Chinese.


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