# Uno spostato



## Rossismad

Ciao,

Stavo guardando il primo film di Harry Potter e ho sentito questa parola spostata in forma sostantivo, la quale non riesco a trovare. 

La mamma in affidataria di Harry, all'inizio del film, parla della vera mamm di Harry, dicendo che "Tutti erano così fieri di lei, ma io ero l'unica a vederla com'era veramente: una *spostata*" 

Questa affermazione è decisamente negativa, cioè tutti pensavano fosse brava, ma io lo sapevo che era..... cattiva? O forse sta dicendo che tutti esageravano? 

Sarei grato per qualsiasi aiuto!
Ross


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## joanvillafane

Hi Rossismad - Here's a definition:
http://www.treccani.it/vocabolario/tag/spostato/
But I find the translation strange - you do know that the English word (from the text) is "freak" - 
I was the only one who saw her for what she was - a freak!


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## chipulukusu

Hi Rossismad, I think the exact translation of _spostata_ in English could be _a deviational person.
_I should say that _spostata_ is used rather easily in Italian, also for behaviours which are not _patologically _deviant. I don't know if there is a similar word in English...

Esempio: "quella ragazza torna sempre alle tre di notte. E' proprio una _spostata_"


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## joanvillafane

Hi chip - "pathologically"  - 
We have the word "deviant" but it's really strong and not used in a joking way.  Did you see my post #2 - the original word from the Harry Potter text is "freak" - so according to your definition, "spostata" is the right word!


Edit: one more question - the dictionary link (from Treccani) does not give the definition you gave, chip. That's why I thought it was strange, because it doesn't match the idea of "freak."


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## chipulukusu

Thank you Joan I had a doubt about a missing h, but I was to lazy to go and check...

Actually the term should be rather strong in Italian, it's just that it is used frquently, mostly by elderly persons, in a judgemental way, so to be applied also to behaviours which are not at all beyond the law or antisocial.

In a strict sense _spostato_ should be applied to a person which commits petty thefts, makes use of drugs, gets easily involved in brawls, etc., but it is judgementally applied to any behaviour which appears socially uncommendable.

P.S. This time I checked and fixed the spelling of _thefts_ before posting...


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## Ste_72

I remember that one of Marilyn Monroe's movie (and also Clark Gable's last one) was "The misfits". The italian issue of the movie was titled "Gli spostati". I see on WR "misfit" is translated with "disadattato".
Could "misfit" fit in this case?


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## chipulukusu

Misfit seems good, but maybe is more in the sense of a social outcast, not in the sense of someone necessarily doing anything wrong, simply someone ill-fitting in a certain environment. But we need a native opinion here.

_Spostato_ may also mean a social outcast, but I think a person should also break some rule to qualify as one. At least rules of acceptable behaviour.

If I were in the UK in these days I would say that _spostato_ is in the middle between a _misfit, a social outcast_, and an overt _ASBO kid _(for compliance with the forum rules: ASBO = Anti Social Behaviour Order).


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## joanvillafane

I'm learning a lot about the word "spostato/a" but just to get this discussion back on track -

We haven't heard from Rossismad, who, just to remind you, is reading an _Italian translation of an English novel._   I believe we do not need to translate "spostata" into English since we already know the original word was "freak" (post #2). 
In the context of the novel, Harry's mother also had the same magical powers, so in that sense she was seen as a "deviant," a "misfit," "pathological," "socially outcast," or any of the other words you have come up with. 

I am still interested in my question in post #4 - why the Treccani definition does not seem to match any of the terms you have been discussing.....


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## Ste_72

Hi Joan,
just a cut and paste from your Treccani link:

_*2.*__ agg. e s. m. Detto di chi, per una serie di circostanze non sempre dipendenti dalla sua volontà, non è riuscito a realizzarsi nella vita, e si trova quindi in una situazione di disagio psicologico, sociale, culturale e sim.: un giovane s., una ragazza s.; più com. come sost.: lei è un’ottima impiegata, ma il suo collega è uno s.; non vorrai prendere per marito quello s.!; con la sua eccessiva indulgenza ha fatto della figlia una s.; __che famiglia di spostati!

_It actually seems to match any of the terms we used. Or do I miss something?


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## chipulukusu

joanvillafane said:


> We haven't heard from Rossismad, who, just to remind you, is reading an _Italian translation of an English novel._   I believe we do not need to translate "spostata" into English since we already know the original word was "freak" (post #2).
> In the context of the novel, Harry's mother also had the same magical powers, so in that sense she was seen as a "deviant," a "misfit," "pathological," "socially outcast," or any of the other words you have come up with.



Hi Joan, in fact I see a problem here: I found strange the choice of the word _spostata_ by the translator... _Spostata_ is always negative in Italian, while _freak_, as far as I know, can also have a positive meaning. A _freak_ can be a _weird_ but _original _and _creative person_, and a _freak _is usually seen as harmless, if I'm not wrong. But surely the translator know the character much better than me!



joanvillafane said:


> I am still interested in my question in post #4 - why the Treccani definition does not seem to match any of the terms you have been discussing.....



I have noticed that, but I don't have a precise answer.
Maybe _spostato/a_ is not very common nowadays, and maybe Treccani (which I don't know) is committed to polish up the language from any obsolete usage to keep the tune with actual current language...
To tell the truth, with reference to my previous post, the word _spostata_ immediately brings to my mind a ninety-something old lady which can't sleep at night and see her young neighbour coming back every night at three or four o'clock.
She may very likely say "_Quella la è proprio una spostata" _without even knowing what she's is doing.
Actually, I don't remember having heard the word _spostato/a _from someone my age or younger...

EDIT: oops, you are right Ste, I didn't click on _Leggi...
_But the definition of Treccani seems to contradict most of what I've been saying along this thread. I'm sorry if I mislead someone, but I was convinced that _spostata_ was used to indicate someone more _dangerous_ than an _unresolved_ person...


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## joanvillafane

Hi Ste and thank you!  I had missed that completely.  (forgot to click on "leggi.....") 

I found strange the choice of the word _spostata by the translator.. _ Chip, that's what I said in post #2


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## chipulukusu

joanvillafane said:


> Hi Ste and thank you!  I had missed that completely.  (forgot to click on "leggi.....")
> 
> I found strange the choice of the word _spostata by the translator.. _ Chip, that's what I said in post #2



Sorry Joan I didn't quite understand your post #2...
But if we stand with Treccani _original_ definition, then _spostata_ can be a good translation in this case... And usually translators are more precise in the use of words than common speakers like me
.


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## Ste_72

Ok, so a "freak" does not definitely have to be a "misfit"... 
Maybe it could have been translated simply with "una strana", given the context.


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## london calling

I take that to mean that she was a nutcase rather then a freak. Has anybody seen the film in English/got the book?.


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## CPA

In case anyone's interested, here's Lily Potter's biography. Petunia also calls her 11-year-old sister a weirdo.


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## london calling

CPA said:


> In case anyone's interested, here's Lily Potter's biography. Petunia also calls her 11-year-old sister a weirdo.


I can't read that link, for some reason.

Anyway, are you saying you think _spostata _= _nutcase/weirdo_?. Or do you prefer _freak_?


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## CPA

I'm saying you have to read "freak" and "weirdo" in context. A more apt translation might be "fenomeno da baraccone" because of Lily's magical abilities. In no way was she a _spostata/nutcase_, but she would certainly seem "odd" to her very normal, and envious, elder sister. Uhm, maybe "una strana"? In any case, you need a word that Petunia would use both as a young girl and as a grown woman. I don't envy whoever translated those books.


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## GavinW

CPA said:


> I don't envy whoever translated those books.



Me neither! It's always difficult to translate stuff that's badly written in the original language. And, let's be sure, they are badly written. Ineffably so. (But that's off-topic...)

EDIT: Anyway I think we may be suffering from polysemy in the Italian term. Any takers for the following sense division?
spostato (sost.)
1) a weirdo, someone who behaves in a strange way that is not in accordance with socially accepted/standardized norms
2) = spostato di mente: someone with psychological problems; nutcase, nutter


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## london calling

GavinW said:


> 1) a weirdo, someone who behaves in a strange way that is not in accordance with socially accepted/standardized norms
> 2) = spostato di mente: someone with psychological problems; nutcase, nutter


I just checked the Italian definition of the word 'spostato': _disadattato_ (misfit). If that is the case, then _weirdo (oddball) _ is the better term. However, colloquially I've often heard it to mean a nutcase.

The problem is we don't know which word the author used in the original text, do we. Maybe she did use the word _freak_.


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## Pat (√2)

london calling said:


> The problem is we don't know which word the author used in the original text, do we. Maybe she did use the word _freak_.


'giorno  Sì che lo sappiamo: vedi Joan 


joanvillafane said:


> the English word (from the text) is "freak" -
> I was the only one who saw her for what she was - a freak!


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## london calling

Pat (√2) said:


> 'giorno  Sì che lo sappiamo: vedi Joan


Silly me!


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## GavinW

Harry's aunt criticised her own sister for being "abnormal" (freak). She had weird powers that normal people don't have. This made her a kind of monster (per intendersi*). It's not a behavioural thing, it has its roots in "physiology", almost. "Spostata" seems to have more than one meaning, but even in the meaning that is closest to this sense (the main sense) of "freak", the meaning of the Italian noun is both different, and too mild (at the same time). That's my opinion, anyway. 
I was initially inclined to allow a certain elasticity in the translation, but I now find I'm not satisfied with "spostata". It has different connotations, and doesn't resonate in the same way. In fact, I suspect that the only thing "spostata" has in common with "freak" is that it _does_ resonate (in a negative "direction", clearly). But I don't think the _intensity_ of the word can entirely be a substitute for meaning.

(*In fact, I would not totally discard "mostro" as a candidate for being a viable translation of "freak". It's a good guide, at least.)


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## chipulukusu

If it can be of any interest here (I suspect it won't...) we have the (oldish) word _fricchettona_ in Italian which comes directly from the English _freak_, but it only refers to someone whose dressing and hair style and behaviour (at least one of the three...) resembles those of the _hippies _from the sixties and seventies.


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## GavinW

Yes, freak was once also used for hippies, but that use is a bit old-fashioned now. Or, rather, the social/cultural phenomenon which it refers /referred) to is no longer current... unfortunately... ;-)


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## giovannino

GavinW said:


> EDIT: Anyway I think we may be suffering from polysemy in the Italian term. Any takers for the following sense division?
> spostato (sost.)
> 1) a weirdo, someone who behaves in a strange way that is not in accordance with socially accepted/standardized norms
> 2) = spostato di mente: someone with psychological problems; nutcase, nutter



I agree with your sense division, Gavin, although I would add that the narrow-minded people who use the word "spostato" (from my perspective the word reflects negatively on those who use it rather than on those who it is used about) often have both senses in mind at the same time.
I also agree with your objections to the translator's choice to translate "freak" as "spostato" in the context we are dealing with.


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## GavinW

Thanks for your input, g. And it's helpful to stress the subjective element attached to the use of the term. Not to say prejudice.


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## CPA

GavinW said:


> And it's helpful to stress the subjective element attached to the use of the term. Not to say prejudice.



Ah, we're getting there. No matter how badly you may think they are written, what most impressed me about the first of the HP books was the spot-on description of an agonizingly snooty, blinkered, habit-driven, middle-class English family in the 1960s. Not that Aunt Petunia would have said "freak" and "weirdo" in those days, but this is fiction, isn't it?


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## Rossismad

Wonderful! Forgive me for not checking back, I was content with the translation as freak. Shall we settle on misfit? Any takers on delinquent?


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## london calling

Rossismad said:


> Wonderful! Forgive me for not checking back, I was content with the translation as freak. Shall we settle on misfit? Any takers on delinquent?


Not really. It says 'freak' in the original, as Joan pointed out a while back.


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## Rossismad

I noticed. But through the next 30 posts it would seem that spostato isn't exactly a freak, wouldn't it?


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## chipulukusu

You are right Rossimad, the thread is about determining the exact meaning of the word _spostata_ at least as much as about deciding if _spostata_ is the best translation for _freak.
_
Even after knowing what the _Treccani DIctionary_ says, I still think that _spostata_ is very much _pejorative_ with regard to _freak_. I would never call _spostato _in Italian a person whom I would call a _freak _in English.

_Spostato _means someone who is not moving on the right path, is breaking the rules and creating problems to himself and others. A _freak_ is on his _own_ path, he doesn't necessarily break any rule and doesn't create problems to anyone (but himself according to most conservative people...).
If I meet a _spostato _down a streetI expect him to threaten me with a knife at any time, if I meet a _freak_ I expect him to call me _brah_ and to ask me for a cigarette...

I'm exaggerating of course, but my answer as a native is: _No_, a _spostato_​ is not exactly a freak.


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## Rossismad

I disagree with your definition of freak, but that's neither here nor there! What you just described about spostato, however, is ABSOLUTELY what I would call a delinquent!


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## CPA

Rossismad said:


> I noticed. But through the next 30 posts it would seem that spostato isn't exactly a freak, wouldn't it?



That's exactly the point. We still haven't come up with a decent translation of "freak" in this context, given that "spostata" doesn't exactly fit the bill. But I mean, they had to get the Italian edition into the bookshops, didn't they? 

And then re-translate all the names when the second book came along.


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## Rossismad

True, and I'm not one to give Italian substitutes for English. I was actually watching the movie, not the book, and I was watching it through Sky, therefore was able to switch languages. I really started this thread because I knew it wasn't the best of translations, and wanted to understand spostato better. But thanks to many, many posts I think we have it!


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## chipulukusu

Rossismad said:


> I disagree with your definition of freak, but that's neither here nor there! What you just described about spostato, however, is ABSOLUTELY what I would call a delinquent!



Mine was in no way a _definition_ of freak neither I wanted to say that a _spostato_ goes around stabbing people at every corner

I just wanted to say this:

1) I see a man - I think that he looks like a _spostato_ - I think I could get into trouble and I don't look at him

2) I see a man - I think that he looks like he's a _freak - _I look at him and if he looks at me too I smile back.



> We still haven't come up with a decent translation of "freak" in this context, given that "spostata" doesn't exactly fit the bill



Hi CPA, I still think, at this point, that the best suggestion is Ste's #13: "_una strana_".


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## Rossismad

chipulukusu said:


> Mine was in no way a _definition_ of freak *nor did I want* to say that a _spostato_ goes around stabbing people at every corner
> 
> I just wanted to say this:
> 
> 1) I see a man - I think that he looks like a _spostato_ - I think I could get into trouble and I don't look at him
> 
> 2) I see a man - I think that he looks like he's a _freak - _I look at him and if he looks at me too I smile back.



That's ok. However, one might also say that you wouldn't smile at a freak on the street, either. But that's based purely on personal motives


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## CPA

chipulukusu said:


> Hi CPA, I still think, at this point, that the best suggestion is Ste's #13: "_una strana_".



Oooops, giuro che non l'avevo visto quando l'ho suggerito anch'io (#17).


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## Odysseus54

GavinW said:


> Me neither! It's always difficult to translate stuff that's badly written in the original language. And, let's be sure, they are badly written. Ineffably so. (But that's off-topic...)
> 
> EDIT: Anyway I think we may be suffering from polysemy in the Italian term. Any takers for the following sense division?
> spostato (sost.)
> 1) a weirdo, someone who behaves in a strange way that is not in accordance with socially accepted/standardized norms
> 2) = spostato di mente: someone with psychological problems; nutcase, nutter



Literally, 'spostato' means of course 'moved away' > 'off', 'eccentric'.

It is not a term used to describe any specific mental disease or social maladaptation.  

It is a generic term, like 'weird', 'freak', 'eccentric' - stronger that 'eccentric'.

I do not see a  "spostato di mente" meaning to it.  Socially awkward or generically maladjusted, with a wide range of acuity levels.


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## Odysseus54

CPA said:


> That's exactly the point. We still haven't come up with a decent translation of "freak" in this context, given that "spostata" doesn't exactly fit the bill. But I mean, they had to get the Italian edition into the bookshops, didn't they?
> 
> And then re-translate all the names when the second book came along.




Una "stramba", magari ?  

Mi pare pero' che ci stiamo avvitando su una discussione che e' un po' un cercare di pettinare le pulci - "spostata", "strana", "balorda", "stramba", "strampalata",  ecc ecc , sono termini privi di qualsiasi precisione descrittiva, come d'alta parte "weird" , "freak" ecc.


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## giovannino

chipulukusu said:


> If I meet a _spostato _down a streetI expect him to threaten me with a knife at any time



Although you did say that you were exaggerating I still think that saying that you would expect a "spostato" to threaten you with a knife is extremely  misleading (Rossismad was led to conclude that it's the same as a "delinquent"). As Odysseus said:



> It is a generic term, like 'weird', 'freak', 'eccentric' - stronger that 'eccentric'.
> 
> I do not see a "spostato di mente" meaning to it. Socially awkward or generically maladjusted, with a wide range of acuity levels.


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## Paulfromitaly

Odysseus54 said:


> Mi pare pero' che ci stiamo avvitando su una discussione che e' un po' un cercare di pettinare le pulci - "spostata", "strana", "balorda", "stramba", "strampalata",  ecc ecc , sono termini privi di qualsiasi precisione descrittiva, come d'alta parte "weird" , "freak" ecc.



Esattamente.



> http://www.treccani.it/vocabolario/spostato/
> *2.* agg. e s. m. Detto di  chi, per una serie di circostanze non sempre dipendenti dalla sua  volontà, non è riuscito a realizzarsi nella vita, e si trova quindi in  una situazione di disagio psicologico, sociale, culturale e sim.: _un giovane s._, _una ragazza s._; più com. come sost.: _lei è un’ottima impiegata_,_ ma il suo collega è uno s._; _non vorrai prendere per marito quello s.!_; _con la sua eccessiva indulgenza ha fatto della figlia una s._; _che famiglia di spostati!_



Il termine in italiano è presente nei dizionari, non c'è bisogno di interpretarlo o di definirlo ed è anche già stato tradotto più volte.


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