# 老外



## Staarkali

Hello all,

I just realised a few days ago that 老外 which I assumed to be a nickname for 外国人 also means amateur/外行.
Is it often used with that meaning?
is it why people say we shouldn't use the word 老外 for talking about foreigners? otherwise why shouldn't we use 老外 for foreigners? is it just because it feels too casual with some people that someone is not even familiar with?

Thanks in advance for any contributions!


----------



## Geysere

Really? For me 老外 only means foreigners! But I'm not sure whether people from other regions of China have different interpretations...

老外 is indeed a casual word, but I never find it not appropriate when speaking to strangers or teachers, respected elderlies, etc. It's a very common and neutral word in that sense.


----------



## AVim

Geysere said:


> Really? For me 老外 only means foreigners! But I'm not sure whether people from other regions of China have different interpretations...


I agree with Staarkali.
For example, the following sentences (from google) contain 老外 which means 'out':
如果这也不知道，那只能说你太老外了。
我不会主动发起gossip，只是听听，显得不太老外而已。



> 老外 is indeed a casual word, but I never find it not appropriate when speaking to strangers or teachers, respected elderlies, etc. It's a very common and neutral word in that sense.



Hmm, for me, 老外 sounds a little exclusive, like what ... like the speaker has drawn a circle for all the Chinese people, but leave the foreigners out there. 

Oh, My God. Is it what the '外' originally mean --- "OUT"?


----------



## Staarkali

well, one of my colleague later that 老外 feels indeed very casual while 外国人 is more neutral, that's about it.

So back to the original question, it seems that amateur is not the first meaning that comes to mind when talking about 老外. Any more people to confirm?


----------



## BODYholic

In general (I can almost ascertain it is completely true if it is outside China), 老外 is a casual and informal term to address non-Chinese. I won't say 老外 is equivalent to foreigner because being a Singapore Chinese, if I go to China, that makes me a foreigner in their land. But no one will call me a 老外. Since it is casual and informal, this term is not heard over news, official speeches and the like.
Note: In Hong Kong, 鬼佬 (gweilo) is used in lieu of 老外.
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/鬼佬

In China, 外行人 (layman) is also called 老外. But this is uncommon outside China.


----------



## Staarkali

BODYholic said:


> In general (I can almost ascertain it is completely true if it is outside China), 老外 is a casual and informal term to address non-Chinese. I won't say 老外 is equivalent to foreigner because being a Singapore Chinese, if I go to China, that makes me a foreigner in their land. But no one will call me a 老外. [...]


 
老外 is probably not that natural for 华人 in general, regardless of their nationality.
An ABC (American Born Chinese) will be called ABC rather than 老外


----------



## AVim

BODYholic said:


> 老外 is a casual and informal term to address non-Chinese. I won't say 老外 is equivalent to foreigner because being a Singapore Chinese, if I go to China, that makes me a foreigner in their land. But no one will call me a 老外.



Good example, I now agree that '老外' is unequal to 'foreigner'.  

But I personally feel that 老外 only refers to the western people. Since it also feels unnatural for me use it to refer a Japanese or a Korean.


----------



## BODYholic

AVim said:


> But I personally feel that 老外 only refers to the western people.


To be honest, I have given it the same thought. As what Staarkali has pointed out earlier, and also by virtue of their looks, American Chinese (but not limiting to this group of people) is unlikely to be called 老外. But on second thought, your definition may be more precise and appropriate. 

I reckon that it is difficult to define it, in English at least. Anyhow, I believe Staarkali has gotten the idea of what 老外 means through this discussion.

In conclusion, I don't really think 老外 is, in anyway, associated with the meaning of amateur which is 业余 in Chinese.


----------



## kenny4528

I don't believe I have ever heard it used to mean amateur; the only meaning it has, as far as I know, is western people.


----------



## catamaran

kenny4528 said:


> I don't believe I have ever heard it used to mean amateur; the only meaning it has, as far as I know, is western people.


老外 is only used in some certain area when it means amateur.


----------



## alexcn

je crois que nous utilisons plustôt "外行" que "老外" , de plus, "外行" et "老外" ici ne signifient pas "amateur", mais "profane", "non professionnel". Personnellement, je crois même si l'on utilise "老外" pour décrire un profane est bizarre parce que certains sens rares des mots créés (e.g. 老外 comme un profane) sont éventuellement éliminés avec le temps...


----------



## avlee

Supplementary: 老外 is a word also used to indicate someone who comes from overseas(mainly western people as explained in above posts) and probably knows few things about how local people work or live. And the natives usually excuse them of that for their special identify as of 老外. So later on, people colloquially call those who knows little about how things work as 老外. That's why it could also stand for _being_ _an amateur_ in some certain cases. In my opinion, it is mostly used as an adjective rather than a noun to meaning amateur, which can be seen in examples of one post above.


----------



## Staarkali

alexcn said:


> je crois que nous utilisons plustôt "外行" que "老外" , de plus, "外行" et "老外" ici ne signifient pas "amateur", mais "profane", "non professionnel". Personnellement, je crois même si l'on utilise "老外" pour décrire un profane est bizarre parce que certains sens rares des mots créés (e.g. 老外 comme un profane) sont éventuellement éliminés avec le temps...


It's good to know, but in my case, 老外 (as people outside a specific specialty) belongs to the list of vocabulary required for the HSK 中级 so I can't leave it aside 

HSK minus 6 days: 辛苦辛苦!!


----------



## Geysere

Staarkali said:


> It's good to know, but in my case, 老外 (as people outside a specific specialty) belongs to the list of vocabulary required for the HSK 中级 so I can't leave it aside
> 
> HSK minus 6 days: 辛苦辛苦!!


 
HSK=中国汉语水平考试?  I can't believe they include that meaning of 老外! I would fail the exam... Well, 加油


----------



## Staarkali

Geysere said:


> HSK=中国汉语水平考试? I can't believe they include that meaning of 老外! I would fail the exam... Well, 加油


Like I would fail the French TLF and American people would fail TOEFL/BEC/IELTS/CET...


----------



## Jerry Chan

Speaking of 老外, I'd like to offer a term with the same meaning, but used exclusively in Cantonese: 鬼佬 
Now the English term gwailo (or gweilo) is getting popular in Hong Kong and it's even in wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gweilo


----------



## samanthalee

BODYholic said:


> Note: In Hong Kong, 鬼佬 (gweilo) is used in lieu of 老外.
> http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/鬼佬
> 
> In China, 外行人 (layman) is also called 老外. But this is uncommon outside China.



A new term learnt today; I didn't know 老外 means "layman" too. 
Yes, in Hong Kong, 鬼佬 ("gwei lo" in Cantonese) is used in lieu of 老外.
And in Singapore, 红毛 ("ang mo" in Hokkien/Taiwanese) is used. All these terms have a slight affectionate nuance.


----------



## 52frank

I've never heard anyone around me talk about amateur as "老外", as I also have  never heard anyone call expert as "老内(行)" or "老专(家)".
老外 is a neutral noun to descripe foreigners, mostly western foreigners, and this usage is very common in Chinese.
But when you are not familiar with something, your Chinese friend may creat another usage of "老外", because the same 外 in chinese can be used to compose both 外国人 and 外行. Maybe that's why you are so confused.


----------



## qui

BODYholic said:


> In China, 外行人 (layman) is also called 老外. But this is uncommon outside China.


老外 = foreigner, especially Caucasion/white.

I've never heard anyone would call a layman that.


----------



## Flowers-CN

qui said:


> 老外 = foreigner, especially Caucasion/white.
> 
> I've never heard anyone would call a layman that.



 Agree At least not in standard/offical Chineses.


----------



## w84u

老外 is sometimes used to refer to someone who knows little about a particular subject, especially used between people who know each other very well. In this case, it means much the same as 'a layman' in English. When you make an elementary mistake, your friend may tease you: 'what a 老外 you are!'  This meaning of 老外 has just come into use for a few years, I guess.


----------



## wxr588

Let me append this:

*老外 lǎo wài* 

1. 外国人。foreigner
例：她嫁给一个老外，跟他出国了。
She married a foreigner and went abroad.

2. 外行。layman; someone unexperienced
例：你真老外，我告诉你如何用这个工具。
You're a layman.  Let me show you how to use this tool.

---《New Slang of China 最新中国俚语》 李淑娟  颜力刚  编著  p.189


----------



## yong321

Native Chinese speakers use the word 老外 to refer to foreigners in an informal way. On the spectrum of complimentary to derogatory, it's either in the middle or slightly complimentary, especially when you consider the character 老 ("old"), which implies respect in the traditional culture. But I asked some non-Chinese people that are studying or know a little Chinese language. Most of them seem to think of the word as derogatory or discriminatory. What do you think?


----------



## 枫十二

I think it is slightly derogatory, I'll try to avoid the use of it. When I hear of "老", the first impression popping up is feeble, then wise, knowledgeable, kind etc. So the first reason we respect the old is, they are not as strong as they were, then they are wise, knowledgeable, kind etc. Do you want to be respected in that way? l am eager to see others' oppinions.


----------



## hx1997

I don't consider 老外 to be derogatory in any manner of speaking, nor did I spot, in daily conversations, any use of the word *itself* as an insult against foreigners. In my view, 老外 is neither disapproving nor approving. It's just a word for "foreigners" in colloquial speech.

For the prefix 老-, I tend to think it doesn't imply weakness (e.g. 老大).

Edit: 老外 and "foreigners" may not be equivalent, see posts above.


----------



## 枫十二

hx1997 said:


> For the prefix 老-, I tend to think it doesn't imply weakness (e.g. 老大).


Good direction!

那个老外长得好漂亮 positive
连老外都喜欢打麻将了slightly negative
我们家楼上住着两个老外 neutral

Maybe foreigners are very sensitive to "old" like me. I live in ChengDu, people use "老" to show respect, we even use“老” in short for “老师”(杜老，陈老 is short for 杜老师，陈老师). In a circumstance like this, I still think of aging first when I see "老"


----------



## luoruosi

我在赌场上班，大多数我的同事是中国人，而他们总是叫我老外。我讨厌这个词是因为我们都住在美国！我不是老外，我是本地人。在这边他们是真正的老外。
但我发现他们只叫白人 （欧洲人）老外。他们要是指黑人，就说 “老黑"。我一直没有听过他们叫那里的印度人，海地人或者韩国人 ”老外“。


----------



## yong321

I posted the question whether "老外" in the sense of "foreigner" (not the very uncommon "unskilled") has a negative connotation (as an independent question, but apparently the moderator merged it into this thread as msg #23). It seems more than half of the people would answer Yes to this question.

What determines the negative connotation of a word? I used to think it's purely the context in which the word is used that does so. Now I have at least two examples that prompt us to reconsider this criterion. "老外" is one. The other is "Oriental" (which I blogged about). The latter even led to the Obama administration to ban the word in future congressional documents. One thing common to both cases is that, it's the receiving end of the word, the denotee, not the speaker (writer) or the context the speaker creates, that we should consider in judging this connotaion of the word. That is, in the modern society, a well-intentioned speaker may unexpectely create a politically incorrect discourse simply by a word he considers neutral, even if the word is in his own native language which is foreign to the people the word refers to.

While I personally don't consider "Oriental" derogatory, let me end this message with someone's comment on an article titled "My 'Oriental' Father":
"As a dumpy old white guy, I have never thought of Oriental as a disrespectful term. Yet, regardless of my feelings on the matter, if someone feels marginalized by the term, it shouldn't be a problem for me to use a word or phrase that they find more appropriate."


----------



## brofeelgood

荒谬。

「老外」这词不褒也不贬，就一个中性的称呼好吧。不说别人就说我。我在国内工作多年，虽说我黄皮黑眼彻彻底底就是个汉人，但我所有的同事和朋友都把我当作是老外。我被如此称之，也被如此待之，但我心里清清楚楚，他们是一丝一毫的恶意都没有。

所以，我就是不明白为何有些人非得给这词硬生生套上一些莫明其妙的贬义、让自己觉得受万丈委屈了心里才舒服？拜托！真想侮辱你的话，没人会称你为「老外」的傻瓜，人家会直接叫你「白鬼」、「洋鬼」、「红毛鬼」或甚至「白皮猪」好不好。

Everything has to be somehow anally P.C. these days. At the slightest hint of aberration, the alleged perpetrator would be immediately taken to task, mercilessly rebuked, publicly castrated and sent for TOTAL reformation, no judge or jury required. It's complete and utter nonsense.


----------



## NewAmerica

luoruosi said:


> 我在赌场上班，大多数我的同事是中国人，而他们总是叫我老外。我讨厌这个词是因为我们都住在美国！我不是老外，我是本地人。在这边他们是真正的老外。



  对啊，这叫反客为主，应该勇敢反击叫他们“老外”（叫得狠点就叫“死老外！”*）！到中国作客时你是老外可不能赖账。

*（反击时的完整说法：“死老外！这里是美国！想反客为主啊？没门儿！” ——供参考。 如果你有兴趣的话就把活学活用的结果报告上来。）


----------



## 枫十二

yong321 said:


> It seems more than half of the people would answer Yes to this question.


It seems most people consider it neutral, I only spoke for myself.



brofeelgood said:


> 荒谬。
> 所以，我就是不明白为何有些人非得给这词硬生生套上一些莫明其妙的贬义



I hope you didn't refer to me. I just wonder why some foreigners don't like it. Does it mean: When some native Chinese call foreigners as "老外", they make them feel that the atmosphere is not so friendly? when I saw the original thread, I thought of "连老外都喜欢打麻将了" immediately. It was a story my relative told me recently and I am sure that it was slightly negative because he implied that “老外” wasn't good at mathematics/logic later. And I just said it is "slightly" negative for me and I don't force anyone to understand in that way.


----------



## yong321

It's unfortunate that this forum no longer allows polls. I have confirmed it with the moderator. So let me manually collect the opinions from this discussion:

The fields are: message#, username (native language), neutral or negative.
#2 Geysere (C) neutral
#3 AVim (C) negative
#18 52frank (C) neutral
#24 枫十二 (C) negative
#25 hx1997 (C) neutral
#27 luoruosi (E) negative
#29 brofeelgood (E) neutral

The sample is too small to be statistically significant. But it does show that the connotation for the word 老外 is about half-half between neutral and slightly negative.

But some time ago, I asked the same question on the Facebook Polyglots group, which has ca. 30,000 members. My count shows a higher number for the "negative" opinion. I remember most if not all who answered my question are not native Chinese speakers. Unfortunately, I didn't save the link and it's hard to search for old discussions on Facebook.


----------



## I am a Chinese boy

According to how I understand 老外，I would say, it only contains ONE meaning which means 外国人，and the most important in my opinion, it contains no offensive negative meaning in lao wai.  Some foreigners think of lao wai as some bad word meaning "always being kept outside (by local people)",  and my answer is NO!  Laowai has no offensive meaning! At least I think so.

I don't think lao wai also means 外行, I never use it this way.   外行 is layman.

I notice that a few replies above right here say 老外 means layman, I have no idea about that usage, I am from the capital of China. I do not know whether 老外layman exists in some Chinese dialects/vernacular.

Hopefully my answer is informative.


----------



## stephenlearner

If some people use 老外 to mean 外行，I would think they are misusing/abusing the Chinese language. To me, 老外 never means 外行.

Politically, as regards to nationality, Japanese, Korean, Singaporean, Indians and Westerners are all 老外.
But, psychologically, we use 老外 to refer to Westerners only.  We use 外国人 to refer to Japanese, Korean, Singaporeans as well as Westerners.


----------



## 2PieRad

Hello.

I think you were on the right track, @yong321. I would certainly say that context is hugely important. After all, what are spoken words other than just random sounds we make with our mouths, to which meanings are arbitrarily assigned based on the context in which we say them? And we all know that most of what we communicate to other people is not dependent on the words we choose to say (and whether they're "politically correct or not"), but rather on non-verbal communication methods (ie, facial expressions, body language, intonation, and context.)

So, an acquaintance recently sent me an article to read. The article detailed the author's experience living in China for a year and a half. He told a story of his experience as a foreigner in a Starbucks in Beijing. I don't drink coffee nor do I go to Starbucks often, but the barista generally writes (or tries to spell) your name on your coffee cup when he takes your order. I presume this is the same in China as well. The author described his experience as "especially bizarre." He doesn't elaborate too much, but he simply said that instead of writing his name (or trying to write his name) on the cup, the barista simply wrote "foreigner" in Chinese. Not sure exactly what was written, but I'm betting it was 老外。

Imagine a Chinese person goes to a Starbucks with an almost all-white clientele, in a mostly white country. He orders a drink and gives his Chinese name to the barista. The barista doesn't speak a lick of Chinese and has no idea how to write his name. So instead, the barista writes on his cup "Chinese" (or "foreigner") because he's the only Asian in the store at the time and he would be easily identifiable that way. Or maybe the barista writes "Japanese" instead because he can't tell the difference between Chinese and Japanese people. The Chinese person certainly reads enough English to understand that the barista wrote "中国人" (or 日本人 or 外国人) on his cup. Would the Chinese person be a bit offended?

The author of the article goes on to say that little Chinese kids on the streets would gather near him and they would point at him while laughing and gossiping amongst themselves. Would it have mattered what word they chose to call him while pointing and laughing at him? 老外? Or something more politically correct like 外国人? Or something more crude like 白鬼 or 白皮猪? Not really. He probably wouldn't even understand the names they were calling him, just that they were pointing and laughing at him. Again, most of what we communicate is communicated non-verbally, and the words we choose really have very little bearing by comparison. Those words simply "absorb" the connotations and meanings conveyed non-verbally by the context.

A work friend told me of a similar experience during his time in Japan, when kids would gather near him and talk amongst themselves about him. The only word he could make out was "外人" _gaijin_, which I think is a fairly accurate translation of 老外 in Japanese. Would it have mattered if the Japanese kids laughed at him and called him something more formal instead, like 外国人 _gaikokujin, _or something more offensive? Yeah, context is so incredibly important. Even neutral words such as "Chinese" and (presumably) "老外" can have negative connotations if the context so dictates.

And context varies from one person to another because (surprise, surprise) we're all unique individuals with unique upbringings, experiences and backgrounds, thus we approach situations from different contexts. If, from his context, the foreigner at the Starbucks feels offended, then he has every right to feel so. If, from the barista's context, he feels like he's done nothing wrong, then rightfully so as well. Hence it's kind of nice to take a moment to let go of one's own feelings, thoughts, and perceived suffering, and y'know, walk in the other person's shoes (context) for a bit. 

My two cents...


----------



## yong321

Erebos12345,

Very interesting stories, especially the one about ordering a drink at Starbucks in Beijing. I agree with you that the Chinese word written on the cup must be "老外", and it means nothing else than just "foreigner" with absolutely no negative connotation. The scenario of being surrounded by kids may be in a small town. In big cities like Beijing, westerners are seen every minute if not second.

I'd like to make two comments on consciously "walk[ing] in the other person's shoes (context)". First, that is a commendable thing to do. I wish everyone in the world could do that. Secondly, it brings up the question whether the speaker is at least partially responsible for any implication felt by the listener but not the speaker. In the 21st century, the answer seems to be an obvious Yes. But should we extend this Yes to the case where the language is native to the speaker but foreign to the listener? Shouldn't the native speaker have what I call linguistic authority, for lack of a better term, over the meaning of his words and sentences? (Note that the situation I'm concerned with is when the speaker does NOT have the intention to cause the implication.) On the other hand, the distinction between native and foreign is blurred when immigrants and especially their descendents are involved. While the Congress bans the word "Oriental" in official documents because some Asian Americans believe the word is derogatory, I personally think the right decision on such connotation, or lack of, ought to be made by the majority of the language community. If needed, a big corpus of samples in which the word occurs should be collected and analyzed. Without such analysis, we may end up throwing more and more words to the pile of taboo words and make well-behaved citizens' life increasingly inconvenient.


----------



## 2PieRad

Hello


yong321 said:


> Erebos12345,
> 
> Very interesting stories, especially the one about ordering a drink at Starbucks in Beijing. I agree with you that the Chinese word written on the cup must be "老外", and it means nothing else than just "foreigner" with absolutely no negative connotation. The scenario of being surrounded by kids may be in a small town. In big cities like Beijing, westerners are seen every minute if not second.


Hmm, I'm not sure if I've gotten my point across. It's not a matter of the word itself having any negative connotations. It's the _context _in which the word is used that gives the word connotations.

So, I'm curious. What would you think if a barista at a Starbucks in the States wrote "Chinese" or "foreigner" on your cup? They're perfectly neutral words as well in English. And it's perfectly accurate too. You're Chinese and you're a foreigner.

Also, although the author doesn't specify where he was when the kids pointed at him and gossiped, he does mention early on that he spent his year and a half in...北京, and when recounting some of his other stories, he states that they happened in 北京as well. And the article was published last week, so presumably it was a relatively recent experience.

Furthermore, when my work friend told me his experience, I also assumed he was living in a smaller Japanese town. But nope, it was 东京. 


> Secondly, it brings up the question whether the speaker is at least partially responsible for any implication felt by the listener but not the speaker. In the 21st century, the answer seems to be an obvious Yes. But should we extend this Yes to the case where the language is native to the speaker but foreign to the listener? Shouldn't the native speaker have what I call linguistic authority, for lack of a better term, over the meaning of his words and sentences? (Note that the situation I'm concerned with is when the speaker does NOT have the intention to cause the implication.)


And herein lies the crux of what I'm trying to get across. What language we use, what words we use, what language we speak natively, they're not important.  We need to remember that most of what we communicate is instead communicated non-verbally. Most of what we communicate is communicated through the context we create, the attitudes we bring, and the culture from which we approach the situation. People will detect even the smallest nuances of these non-verbal cues.

If a foreigner only encounters the word 老外 (or _any _particular word) in contexts where he's being mocked, excluded, and treated differently than others, then of course he'll start associating negative connotations with the word (in his own unique experience and context). This is _not _a conscious, active decision he makes to "give" the word 老外 a negative connotation. 

If an Asian person encounters the word "oriental" in contexts where he's being mocked, excluded, and treated differently, then of course he'll start giving negative connotations to the word "oriental." But again, it's not the word that matters. It's the context, culture, and attitude people bring to the situation. This is how regular, "neutral" words pick up their negative connotations-when they're used (repeatedly) in negative contexts.

It doesn't mean the barista had bad intentions and was purposely mocking, excluding or treating someone differently. He probably had no idea how to write the foreigner's name and was just trying to find a way to process the order in a timely manner. Most people do not have bad intentions when they do things. Even the most terrible people in history had good intentions and thought they were acting in a way that bettered themselves and the world around them.

And yet, bad things happen in this world, and people still get hurt despite you not having any bad intentions. Why? Because, as I said, we're all unique individuals with unique experiences, approaching things from different contexts. And our "good intentions" are usually only good for us, for the ones closest to us, and for our own context. It takes a bit more effort to consider if our good intentions are actually good for other people and other people's contexts as well.

Reminds me of a nice English expression that goes: "The road/path to hell is paved with good intentions."
The road to hell is paved with good intentions
Road to hell is paved with good intentions

Hence, why I suggested walking in the other person's shoes. As the foreigner, realizing he's seeing things from his own context, letting go of his own perceived hurt feelings, and looking to understand the barista's context. If the foreigner gets offended, the barista can also try to let go of his own perceived hurt feelings, and try to see things from the foreigner's context. 



> Without such analysis, we may end up throwing more and more words to the pile of taboo words and make well-behaved citizens' life increasingly inconvenient.


Again, to reiterate, it's not the _word _that's important. It's the context, attitude, and culture we bring whenever we use that word. 

"Well-behaved citizen." Same problem as "good intentions." The vast majority of us think we're "well-behaved citizens" with "good intentions." In our own minds, most of our actions and thoughts are justified and righteous, and of course, that's why we choose to do and say the things we do. 

And bad things still happen in the world despite almost each and every one of us believing that "I'm a well-behaved person with good intentions." Why? Because "I'm well-behaved and I have good intentions" only applies to our own personal context and the context of a few closest to us, and less often to people beyond our own little circle, who have their own unique experiences and contexts.

"...make [...] life increasingly inconvenient." This is sort of the "perceived suffering" I was talking about. Will life really become increasingly inconvenient? There are lots of words that we don't use ever, but are we inconvenienced by it? Perceptions are incredibly powerful.


----------



## syf08678

I never heard anybody use 老外 in the sense of 外行. For me it refers to foreigners only.


----------

