# karamihan sa / ng



## Qcumber

1) *Nása-trabáho sa bukirín ang karamíhan sa mga laláki! *
= The majority of men are at work in the fields.

Can *sa* be replaced by *ng* [nang]?

2) *Nása-trabáho sa bukirín ang karamíhan ng mga laláki! *
= The majority of men are at work in the fields.

If so, is the meaning the same or is there a difference?


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## kios_01

Little or no difference. Replaceable, yes.

The difference it suggests, to me at least, is that the one with "ng" is more "objective." The quality emanates from them. The one with "sa" is more seen from the outside of the group (this case, men), so "subjective" i should say. That's just my analysis, of course.

Again, little difference and totally replaceable.


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## Qcumber

kios_01 said:


> Little or no difference. [...] The one with "sa" is more seen from the outside of the group (this case, men), so "subjective" [...]


I see. Very interesting.
Would you have the same impressions with *lahát*?

"All the new singers were rewarded."

*1) Ginantipaláan ang lahát ng mga bágong mang-aáwit.*

*2) Ginantipaláan ang lahát sa mga bágong mang-aáwit.*


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## kios_01

Qcumber said:


> Would you have the same impressions with *lahát*?
> 
> "All the new singers were rewarded."
> 
> *1) Ginantipaláan (ang) lahát ng mga bágong mang-aáwit.*
> 
> *2) Ginantipaláan (ang) lahát sa mga bágong mang-aáwit.*


 
Interesting. The sentence with "sa" seems a little awkward. Like when I tried to say it, I automatically choose to say "ng" instead of "sa."

I tried replacing the noun "mga bagong mang-aawit" with other nouns and none seem to fit as good as "ng." So I automatically say "ng."

The only exceptions I could think of concerned pronouns.

Lahat sa ámin/Lahat kamí (all of us-exc.)
Lahat sa átin/Lahat táyo (all of us-inc.)
Lahat sa inyó (all of you-pl.)
Lahat sa kanilá (all of them)


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## perfavore

Qcumber said:


> 1) *Nása-trabáho sa bukirín ang karamíhan sa mga laláki! I think sa is incorrect here.*
> = The majority of men are at work in the fields.
> 
> Can *sa* be replaced by *ng* [nang]?
> 
> 2) *Nása-trabáho sa bukirín ang karamíhan ng mga laláki! *
> = The majority of men are at work in the fields.
> 
> If so, is the meaning the same or is there a difference?


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## perfavore

Qcumber said:


> I see. Very interesting.
> Would you have the same impressions with *lahát*?
> 
> "All the new singers were rewarded."
> 
> *1) Ginantimpaláan ang lahát ng mga bágong mang-aáwit.*
> 
> *2) Ginantimpaláan ang lahát sa mga bágong mang-aáwit. Wrong*


 
I just realized that explaining to someone else the peculiarities of some of the participles we have in Tagalog is just as difficult as my attempts to understand the participles in Italian. I'll be happy to help if you have any more specific questions.


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## Cracker Jack

Yes. I agree with perfavore.  I would say ng instead of sa.  However the use of ng sometimes becomes colloquial.

''Sandali lang ha, punta lang ako ng library.''

Here most people would use ng.  However it is also grammatically correct to say sa.  But it would seem too formal.


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## Qcumber

kios_01 said:


> The only exceptions I could think of concerned pronouns.
> Lahat sa ámin/Lahat kamí (all of us-exc.)
> Lahat sa átin/Lahat táyo (all of us-inc.)
> Lahat sa inyó (all of you-pl.)
> Lahat sa kanilá (all of them)


Very tricky, Kios. Thanks a lot.
Can *lahát sa ámin* be replaced by *láhat námin*, etc. ?


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## Qcumber

It goes without saying that the default construction is with *ng* "of". That's the reason why I was arrested by the sentence with *sa *I came across in a text.


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## perfavore

Qcumber said:


> Very tricky, Kios. Thanks a lot.
> Can *lahát sa ámin* be replaced by *láhat námin*, etc. ?


 No, *lahat* *sa amin* could mean *all of us* but *lahat namin* is not a valid phrase.


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## Qcumber

perfavore said:


> No, *lahat* *sa amin* could mean *all of us* but *lahat namin* is not a valid phrase.


Yet these phrases do occur in books and on the Internet. Here are a few examples.

Pero ito si Ramon Jr. ay special as akin at sa lahat namin dito.

Ang lahat natin mismo ay hindi pa rin halos sapat ...

Taos-puso aking pasasalamat sa lahat ninyo.

Ang ating Panginoon ay namumuno sa lahat nila.


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## perfavore

Qcumber said:


> Yet these phrases do occur in books and on the Internet. Here are a few examples.
> 
> Pero itong si Ramon Jr. ay special sa akin at sa lahat sa amin namin dito. nàmin means our or we. The problem with Tagalog is unless you hear it from a pure native, it would be very easy to substitute the pronouns and come out stilted. People from other regions write and speak it confidently not really knowing the true shades of each pronoun. Just to give you more ideas how to use nàmin:
> 
> Our grandfather = ang lòlo namin
> Our food = ang pagkàin nàmin
> We gave it to him/her = ibinìgay nàmin sa kanya iyon.
> We don't know = hindì nàmin alam.
> 
> 
> Ang lahat natin mismo ay hindi pa rin halos sapat ...All of ours indeed is still not enough
> 
> Taos-puso ang aking pasasalamat sa lahat ninyo. My heartfelt thanks to all of you.
> 
> Ang ating Panginoon ay namumuno sa lahat nila sounds stilted, better: Ang ating Panginoon ay namumuno sa kanilang lahat.


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## kios_01

Qcumber said:


> Yet these phrases do occur in books and on the Internet. Here are a few examples.
> 
> Pero ito si Ramon Jr. ay special as akin at sa lahat namin dito.
> 
> Ang lahat natin mismo ay hindi pa rin halos sapat ...
> 
> Taos-puso aking pasasalamat sa lahat ninyo.
> 
> Ang ating Panginoon ay namumuno sa lahat nila.


 
I agree with perfavore. These sound wrong. In fact, they are wrong, unnatural and should be corrected. And you said you found them in books? Sheesh. I hope they're not the kinds used in school like textbooks or what not. Not that I'm a grammar purist but these just sound wrong. 

It should be:
lahat namin => lahat sa amin
lahat natin => lahat sa atin
lahat ninyo => lahat sa inyo
lahat nila => lahat sa kanila


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## Qcumber

kios_01 said:


> I agree with perfavore. These sound wrong. In fact, they are wrong, unnatural and should be corrected. And you said you found them in books? Sheesh. I hope they're not the kinds used in school like textbooks or what not. Not that I'm a grammar purist but these just sound wrong.
> It should be:
> lahat namin => lahat sa amin
> lahat natin => lahat sa atin
> lahat ninyo => lahat sa inyo
> lahat nila => lahat sa kanila


All I notice is that Tagalog speakers disagree on many things as regard their language, and this is just one case among many. Perhaps there is a huge difference between spoken Tagalog and written Tagalog.Thanks a lot.


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## perfavore

Hi Qcumber,

I appreciate your interest in Tagalog and apologize for the confusion it has caused you but I have to disagree that spoken and written Tagalog contain a lot of differences. Tagalog is one of the most phonetic languages on the planet. Every letter sounds the same in every word and we were taught in elementary that every word is spelled according to how it is spoken. The variability you have seen comes from old and new versions of Tagalog as I have mentioned. I have also said that non-native Tagalogs are sometimes confident about what they don't actually know. If I could be of any help, please let me know.


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## Qcumber

perfavore said:


> I have also said that non-native Tagalogs are sometimes confident about what they don't actually know.


 What are you driving at exactly? What is a "non-native Tagalog"? This is not serious!
The examples I quoted come from educated native speakers of Tagalog. They were not written for foreigners, but for other educated native speakers of Tagalogs.
Incidentally, I quoted
"Nasa-trabaho sa bukirin ang karamihan sa mga lalaki!"
from
Lazaro FRANCISCO, _Ama_, 1929, chapter XXVI
You can check this if you read Tagalog literature.

By the way what Tagalog author(s) have you read so far?

Thanks a lot for your answers.


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## perfavore

kios_01 said:


> *I agree with perfavore*. These sound wrong. In fact, they are wrong, unnatural and should be corrected. And you said you found them in books? Sheesh. I hope they're not the kinds used in school like textbooks or what not. Not that I'm a grammar purist but these just sound wrong.
> 
> *It should be:*
> lahat namin => lahat sa amin
> lahat natin => lahat sa atin
> lahat ninyo => lahat sa inyo
> lahat nila => lahat sa kanila


 
Hi Qcumber,

Even *kios* found the phrases to be unusual.


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## Qcumber

perfavore said:


> Even *kios* found the phrases to be unusual.


Yes that's why I said there is a marked difference between spoken Tagalog and written Tagalog since phrases that are used in written Tagalog are regarded as incorrect by forumites.

You still haven't told me what you mean by "non-native Tagalog".


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## perfavore

Hi Qcumber,

Sorry, I think I confused you by writing incompletely. I meant to say non-native Tagalog speaker. Tagalog has been adopted as the national language among the many languages in the Philippines and is now one of the official media of instruction in schools. All educated Filipinos speak Tagalog but we who were born in the Tagalog regions could tell if somebody is not a native Tagalog speaker. Like Kios, I'm just trying to help because I know how hard it is to study a foreign language.


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## kios_01

Non-native Tagalogs are those who were born in the non-Tagalog-speaking regions of the Philippines, basically north and south of the Greater Manila area. But since Tagalog, or more correctly, its standardized form, Filipino, has been adopted as the official lingua franca in the country, everybody speaks it. Some better than others. (I'm using standardized Filipino as yardstick here.) And there lies the variation. Non-natives naturally have the tendency to use structures from their native tongue when they speak Tagalog, hence the "mistakes" only native Tagalogs could identify. I've heard some of these little mistakes here and there from my non-Tagalog friends. For the most part, they're still intelligible, thus we just let it pass.

P.S. I'm from Manila so the Tagalog I speak is the Manileño kind.


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## pharabus

I know there are occasions where my Fiancee speaks English in preference to Tagalog to another Philippino as the Tagalog they speak is more varied than the English! 

She is Pangasinan and particularly this occurred when speaking to a Visayan


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## Qcumber

Kios and Perfavore,  I am very grateful for the help you bring me, but, please, don't be offended if I considerer that you are good informants for spoken Tagalog, but unreliable ones for written Tagalog. 

From the documents I have collected, diglossia exists in _Katagalúgan_. This is very common all over the world. The academic version of the language has a richer lexicon and more grammatical possibilities than the vernacular version.

Also, don't think your efforts were wasted. I have carefully taken down the phrases with _lahát_ and _karamíhan_ that are eliminated from spoken Tagalog.

_Maráming salámat sa inyóng dalawá._


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## perfavore

pharabus said:


> I know there are occasions where my Fiancee speaks English in preference to Tagalog to another Philippino as the Tagalog they speak is more varied than the English!
> 
> She is Pangasinan and particularly this occurred when speaking to a Visayan


 
Yes, you're absolutely right. People from Pangasinan speak either Ilokano or Panggalatok while somebody Visayan would be speaking something Cebuano, Waray, Ilonggo, etc. Both of them are foreigners with respect to Tagalog which they most likely learned in school so it would be just as easy for them to speak in English as it is to speak in Tagalog.


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## perfavore

Qcumber said:


> Kios and Perfavore,  I am very grateful for the help you bring me, but, please, don't be offended if I considerer that you are good informants for spoken Tagalog, but unreliable ones for written Tagalog.
> 
> From the documents I have collected, diglossia exists in _Katagalúgan_. This is very common all over the world. The academic version of the language has a richer lexicon and more grammatical possibilities than the vernacular version.
> 
> Also, don't think your efforts were wasted. I have carefully taken down the phrases with _lahát_ and _karamíhan_ that are eliminated from spoken Tagalog.
> 
> _Maráming salámat sa inyóng dalawá._


 
Walàng ànuman. Totoò ang sinàbi mo. Mas mahìrap màgsulat ng Tagàlog kaysà magsalità nitò. Sàna ay magkàroon ka ng pagkakàtaon na mabàsa ang nobèlang Flòrante at Laùra ni Balagtàs pàra làlo mong makìta at maapùhap ang kasaganàan at kayamànan ng wìkang Pilipìno. Umaàsa akò na papatnubàyan ka ng Poòng Màykapal. Hanggàng dìto na lang at sumasaìyo.


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## Qcumber

perfavore said:


> Walàng ànuman. Totoò ang sinàbi mo. Mas mahìrap màgsulat ng Tagàlog kaysà magsalità nitò. Sàna ay magkàroon ka ng pagkakàtaon na mabàsa ang nobèlang Flòrante at Laùra ni Balagtàs pàra làlo mong makìta at maapùhap ang kasaganàan at kayamànan ng wìkang Pilipìno. Umaàsa akò na papatnubàyan ka ng Poòng Màykapal. Hanggàng dìto na lang at sumasaìyo.


Oo, nabása ko ná ang kurídong _Florante at Laura_ ni Balagtás. Ngúnit ang akdáng itó ay hindî talagáng akmâ sa panlingwístikáng pananaliksík dáhil tulâ. Nobélang túlúyan lámang ang kailángan kó. 
Maráming salámat. Sumásainyó.


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## perfavore

Qcumber said:


> Oo, nabása ko ná ang kurídong _Florante at Laura_ ni Balagtás. Ngúnit ang akdáng itó ay hindî talagáng akmâ sa panlingwístikáng pananaliksík dáhil tulâ làmang itò. Nobélang túlúyan lámang ang kailángan kó.
> Maráming salámat. Sumásainyó.


 
Akò'y namamanghà sa galìng mong makipag-ùsap sa pamamagìtan ng Tagàlog. Alàm kong may mga sikàt na manunulàt sa wìkang Pilipìno katùlad ni F. Siònil Josè. Sàna ay masumpungàn mo ang iyòng pinakaààsam. Sumàsaiyò.


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## Qcumber

perfavore said:


> Alàm kong may mga sikàt na manunulàt sa wìkang Pilipìno katùlad ni F. Siònil Josè.


??? Sa Inglés lámang ay sumúsúlat si Siónil Jose!!!
Sionil Jose only writes in English. Why do you say he is a famous writer in Filipino?


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## perfavore

Qcumber said:


> ??? Sa Inglés lámang ay sumúsúlat si Siónil Jose!!!
> Sionil Jose only writes in English. Why do you say he is a famous writer in Filipino?


 
Ang alàm ko ay magalìng siyà. Hindì ko alàm na hindì palà siyà sumusùlat sa Tagàlog. Matagàl na kasì akòng walà sa Pilipìnas. Ipàgpaumanhin mo. Sàna ay makahànap ka ng magandàng nobèlang Tagàlog. Hanggàng sa mulì.


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