# Pronouncing ש after ס



## airelibre

I am wondering if this a universal problem or a problem related to English: when I try to pronounce the sh sound after the s sound, for example in ערוץ שתיים I either have to pause between the words or not pronounce the s, instead saying ערותשתיים. 
I'm aware that Spanish speakers struggle to say combinations such as st or sp without a vowel before them. Likewise English speakers find it hard to pronounce shch in Russian without a vowel before and after. Therefore I'm wondering if Hebrew speakers find s followed by sh easy or if it is universally difficult to produce. I certainly can't think of any words in any language at this moment where the combination is found within a word, the combination usually happens between two words. Any thoughts?


----------



## arielipi

the tzadi isnt an s sound - it is a tz sound.
about the problem - it doesnt exist in hebrew.


----------



## airelibre

arielipi said:


> the tzadi isnt an s sound - it is a tz sound.
> about the problem - it doesnt exist in hebrew.



Is the tsadi not a quick glide between a t and an s sound? Even if you count it as a single sound, the tongue position is very similar to that for s, so I think the problem occurs the same with both s-sh and ts-sh for people who experience it.

And, you're sure that there is not a problem? - since to me ׳mechapes shoter' said quickly as 'mechapeshoter' sounds normal but it is just hard to pronounce both the s and the sh. Would you be able to tell that I hadn't said the s?


----------



## tFighterPilot

Well, it the case of "ערוץ שתיים" you have a cluster of /tsʃt/ which would obviously be difficult to anyone. Yes, in this case it's usually simplified to /tʃt/ or something similar. However if it's only /sʃ/ it's usually pronounced properly.


----------



## arielipi

tzadi is a single sound, yes id be able to hear you didnt say the s


----------



## airelibre

Thanks guys, I now see that what makes arutz shtaim so hard is the tsʃt cluster. Mechapes shoter I can say more easily, I think it will just to take a bit of practise to remember to glide the s to the sh rather than not pronouncing the s which is what I think we do in English. Eg when we say 'he stops shooting' you assume from the 'he' that 'stop' is conjugated as 'stops' so it doesn't matter that you don't pronounce the s properly. I think other examples that don't include verbs are also helped by context.


----------



## sawyeric1

Is it considered slang to pronounce ש as ʒ, like in נשבע? Or is it just a common effect that occurs, like tʃ in "... what you ..."?


----------



## shalom00

What do you mean?
נשבע is nishbah.
(depends how accurately you pronounce the ayin, but that is a separate issue)


----------



## airelibre

It’s not that common that you should try to emulate it by forcibly pronouncing ש as a voiced sound, but regressive assimilation of voicing is a natural consequence of spoken language. It can cause confusion between נסגר and נזכר for example.


----------



## utopia

I'd say that my pronouncing of ARUTS SHTAIM is also close to ARUTSHTAIM.

Try saying קיבוץ קציעות - KIBUTS KTSIOT, when saying it fast it would be KIBUKTSIOT - almost without the tsadi.

BTW that's why יששכר is pronounced ISAKHAR - איש שכר > יששכר.


----------



## shalom00

Except for people who make a point of pronouncing the two ש's. There are some.


----------



## utopia

I'm not talking about those who pronounce it ISASKHAR.


----------



## oopqoo

I also find that it's common in fast speech to contract צריכה, צריכים into צכה, צכים (tz5a, tz5im). I even contract צריך into צך (tz5), e.g. ani tz5 ezra.
Another example is אנחנו turning in fast speech into אנחו, e.g. ana5u tz5im lale5et.


----------

