# 是介於兩者之間的



## viajero_canjeado

I was listening to a scientist's perspective on the evolutionary significance of the 文昌魚, and he said in Chinese "有兩門 [vertebrates and invertebrates]。 牠[文昌魚]不是無椎動物門也不是椎動物門；是介於兩者之間的。

那，這個"者"到底是指什麼? 可以替代者為個嗎? Because basically what it means is "the lancelet is actually between the two [groups, kinds, categories]" if my interpretation is correct.


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## Lamb67

It means it encompasses some characters from the two both.


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## viajero_canjeado

者 means that? I'm asking about the function of the word 者, I'm otherwise clear on the overall meaning of the sentence.


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## Lamb67

無椎動物門 and 椎動物門 are substituted by 者 each
个和者有细微的差别的，者属于文学，个口语一些。


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## viajero_canjeado

所以呢, 可不可以說"牠介於兩個之間的"? If not, why? 會聽起來不準確吧, 還是太口語的?


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## Lamb67

viajero_canjeado said:


> 所以呢, 可不可以說"牠介於兩個之間的"? If not, why? 會聽起來不準確吧, 還是太口語的?


你对了。书面语和口语的区别而已。


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## Ghabi

As you may be aware, 者 is often used like the English "the", for example, 貧者愈貧 "the poor gets poorer", so 兩者 is simply "the two". In "intellectual Chinese", you'd hear 前者 "the former" and 後者 "the latter" all the time. In a romantic relationship, you'd hear 第三者 very often, for example, 我不想再當第三者了,你儘快跟你老婆辦離婚吧!


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## viajero_canjeado

呃...您是說, 對了可以使用"個"還是對了會聽起來不準確或口語的?

Oh, 謝謝你的解釋Ghabi. 所以這裡的用法跟"個"差不多吧?


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## Lamb67

个和者有共同的意思。比如你的问题里，两个和两者都对。Ghabi, is trying to explain the difference between the two.

第一个，到第一万个，个更多表达计算的概念。不可以说第一者，只有第三者。有意思吧？


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## Ghabi

viajero_canjeado said:


> 所以這裡的用法跟"個"差不多吧?


I think you should say "介於這兩個之間", with the definiteness clearly expressed. On the contrary, 兩者 is definite by itself.


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## Lamb67

I am bold enough to make a point:

这和者读音上相似，意思上也互相补充。

同样，个和颗有同样的结论。


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## BODYholic

viajero_canjeado said:


> 那，這個"者"到底是指什麼?



"两者" refers to 前者 (former) / 后者 (latter)。



viajero_canjeado said:


> 可以替代者為個嗎?


It's easy to answer this question.
Ask yourself do you say 一个"無椎動物門"? (The 門 here is really awkward.)


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## viajero_canjeado

BODYholic said:


> The 門 here is really awkward.



Why is that? It is used as a classifier for branches and phyla, right?


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## xiaolijie

Lamb67 said:
			
		

> 不可以说第一者，只有第三者。有意思吧？


This is normal (in many languages) due to the logical relationship between the parties involved. It's possible to identify something as "3rd party", but it's not possible to identify the two parties involved as "1st party" and "2nd party" (ie., on what grounds do you decide which is 1st and which is 2nd?). For this reason, we don't say "1st party", "2nd party" but we do say "3rd party".

Xiaolijie
(A lawyer in the making )


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## BODYholic

viajero_canjeado said:


> Why is that? It is used as a classifier for branches and phyla, right?



Err ... no. 

If he said "有兩門文昌魚", then 門 becomes a classifier. But I've never heard any native speaker says that before. We typically say 兩种/类魚 but 一门学问/手艺.

In the case of "無椎動物門", the 門 is just a noun. Yes, it also serves the meaning of 'category' but the usage is atypical. I'm not a scientist but even as a layman, I think it sounds better to say 無椎動物*科*.

As to why I find it awkward is because 们 and 门/門 are homophonic. When someone says  xx動物+men2, listeners may wrongly understood it as xx動物们 (= they).


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## Ghabi

BODYholic said:


> I'm not a scientist but even as a layman, I think it sounds better to say 無椎動物*科*.


門 is _Phylum_ and 科 is _Family_, which are different rungs in the hierarchy of biological classification. Being jargon, they can't be used randomly. In any case, there's nothing called *無椎動物門 in biological  classification, although there's 脊椎動物亞門 _Vertebrata_*.* For vertebrates and invertebrates, one simply says 脊椎動物 and 無脊椎動物.

Back to the original question: 個 is a classifier and 者 is not. When the things you're referring to have no classifier, then it doesn't sound natural to refer them as 這兩個, although people would understand. For example, it sounds wierd to say *"愛情與事業,這兩個如何選擇?" You see we don't say *一個愛情 or *一個事業, thus it sounds strange to refer to them as 這兩個. In such a case, the little word 者 comes in handy, i.e. "愛情與事業,兩者如何選擇?"


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## viajero_canjeado

As always, I find your input both instructive and thought-provoking. As to the use of 門 in the original quote, like I mentioned it was spoken by a Chinese scientist, and so I suppose he had his reasons in choosing to tack on 門 to the statement.

If I remember correctly, a more exact quotation is "文昌魚不是無椎動物門的也不是脊椎動物門的", in this case translating into English as "the lancelet isn't a member of the invertebrate phylum, nor does it belong to the vertebrate phylum" or more literally "it is/isn't _of_" those phyla. So I think 門 here serves a useful purpose.

As for using 個 when I ought not, I'm afraid I'm still learning the ropes, but your comments will no doubt come in handy in the future. Out of curiosity, if the things you're talking about *do* have a classifier, then it would probably sound silly to use 者 instead of the appropriate classifier, is that correct? For example:

我有一本政治學書，還有一本數學書；兩者都無聊死了。/兩本都十二萬分無聊。


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## Ghabi

viajero_canjeado said:


> Out of curiosity, if the things you're talking about *do* have a classifier, then it would probably sound silly to use 者 instead of the appropriate classifier, is that correct? For example:
> 
> 我有一本政治學書，還有一本數學書；兩者都無聊死了。/兩本都十二萬分無聊。


Yes, the former sounds very strange while the latter is perfect.


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## viajero_canjeado

Thanks for the quick response. Just as a short clarification, I didn't mean to assert that just because a Chinese person uttered the sentence then it's necessarily correct - I'm prone to making mistakes in English (越來越多, 真可怕!); no one's infallible. But at the same time, I wouldn't wish to be too quick to dismiss what he said as wrong.


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## Ghabi

viajero_canjeado said:


> But at the same time, I wouldn't wish to be too quick to dismiss what he said as wrong.


Oh no, I didn't mean your quotation is "wrong" ... I'm just ... saying. For those familiar with the classification, 無脊椎動物門 obviously means "all the phyla excluding the subphylum Vertebrata", used as an umbrella term, while for those who are not familiar with the scheme, all these 界門綱目科屬種 mean nothing, so never mind.


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## BODYholic

Ghabi said:


> 門 is _Phylum_ and 科 is _Family_, which are different rungs in the hierarchy of biological classification.


I stand corrected then. Thanks.



Ghabi said:


> For vertebrates and invertebrates, one simply says 脊椎動物 and 無脊椎動物.


Yes, the above terms are straight forward and would be readily understood by most native speakers.


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## Lamb67

viajero_canjeado said:


> 我有一本政治學書，還有一本數學書；兩者都無聊死了。/兩本都十二萬分無聊。


I assume that by using 兩者,she or he implies that neither politics nor mathmatics are interesting while by using 兩本, implies that although the writing in both may be poor he or she is still interested in both topics.


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## Razzle Storm

I don't think I've seen it said yet, so I'll add a little bit of classical for viajero_canjeado. 者 in classical (and modern usage) simply means "one who does X" where X comes before 者. It's similar to the function of -er on the end of a noun in English.

Examples:

读者 = reader, or "one who reads"
说者 = speaker, or "one who speaks"
or for more classical contexts:
道者 = one who follows the 道,
孝者 = one who is 孝.
etc.

 In classical Chinese, 者 could be put on the end of almost anything to make it a noun, and it can still function similarly in Chinese, although the usage differs a little now. It's where 两者，三者，前者，后者 all come from. If you were translating them based on grammatical function, it would be something like "they who are two/three", "that/s/he which is ahead (either in space or time)", and "that/s/he which is behind (either in space or time)".


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## xiaolijie

Applying the rule in the above post, I can now call myself a "*中文学者*" because I'm a learner of Chinese (or even "*中文大学者*" because I like learning Chinese very, very much!)


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## Lamb67

兩者都無聊死了=这两者（两本书的主题）both are boring.我讨厌死了*中文学者. 请相信这是在说中文是我不喜欢的，不是 Xiaolijie这个人。*
*中文大学者 would be like counting a few top scholars and *讨厌死了*中文大学者了 could become a personal insult.*


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## viajero_canjeado

Razzle Storm said:


> 者 in classical (and modern usage) simply means "one who does X" where X comes before 者. It's similar to the function of -er on the end of a noun in English.



I think this is a good summary for its typical usage. But can 者 also have a 的話 sort of meaning? Take for example article 39 from the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties:

條約得以當事國之協議修訂之，除條約可能另有規定者外，此種協議適用'第二編所訂之規則'。

I guess I have a hard time understanding how to make the 者 here fit the mold of the suffix "-er".


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## Ghabi

To be more precise, in classical Chinese 者 is used as a norminalizer (like the Japanese _mono_). It can turn a whole sentence into a noun, not just a verb or an adjective. Here we have "except that which is otherwise stipulated in the treaty ..."

In other cases, "the fact that ..." can be a useful _ad-hoc_ translation to aid your understanding. For example, 夏蟲不可以語於冰者，篤於時也 "the fact that you can't talk about ice with a summer insect, well, it's because the creature is limited by its life-season".


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