# The person whose...



## nikorai

Hello!
I’d appreciate if you could clear up a few things for me. I was recently revising my poor French by looking through phrases in my dictionary. And I was thinking at the same time how to say the same thing in Japanese (which I know much worse). It turned out that I have troubles with subordinate clauses.

The English phrase is
“The person whose sister I know”
In French you’d have to use the complicated word ‘dont’ here. 
“L’homme dont je connais la sœur”.

But what about Japanese? What I came up with is this:
私の知っている姉のいる人。

Does it convey the meaning?


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## akimura

nikorai said:


> The English phrase is
> “The person whose sister I know”
> In French you’d have to use the complicated word ‘dont’ here.
> “L’homme dont je connais la sœur”.
> 
> But what about Japanese? What I came up with is this:
> 私の知っている姉のいる人。
> 
> Does it convey the meaning?



Yes, it does, although it sounds a little unnatural.  But it's not your fault.  As long as _the person whose sister I know_ is a natural English phrase, there's no way, in my opinion, to come up with a good Japanese phrase translated word for word.

In Japanese, we usually say, _an/the older brother of my __acquaintance's_, _an/the older sister of my acquaintance's_, _a/the younger brother of my __acquaintance's_,or _a/the younger sister of my __acquaintance__'s, _which are translated as 私の知人のお兄さん, 私の知人のお姉さん, 私の知人の弟（さん）、私の知人の妹（さん） respectively.  You can replace 知人（ちじん） with 知り合い（しりあい）.

So you need to know which one of the four _the person whose sister I know_ is.  We usually do, when we need to talk about this kind of topic.


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## divisortheory

akimura said:


> Yes, it does, although it sounds a little unnatural.  But it's not your fault.  As long as _the person whose sister I know_ is a natural English phrase, there's no way, in my opinion, to come up with a good Japanese phrase translated word for word.
> 
> In Japanese, we usually say, _an/the older brother of my __acquaintance's_, _an/the older sister of my acquaintance's_, _an/the younger brother of my __acquaintance's_,or _an/the younger sister of my __acquaintance__'s, _which are translated as 私の知人のお兄さん, 私の知人のお姉さん, 私の知人の弟（さん）、私の知人の妹（さん） respectively.  You can replace 知人（ちじん） with 知り合い（しりあい）.
> 
> So you need to know which one of the four _the person whose sister I know_ is.  We usually do, when we need to talk about this kind of topic.



What do the following sound like:

私が妹さんを知っている人
私がその人の妹さんを知っている人
私があちらの妹さんを知っている人

I also think these are either confusing or convey a different meaning, but I'm curious what it sounds like to a native speaker.


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## akimura

divisortheory said:


> 私が妹さんを知っている人
> 私がその人の妹さんを知っている人
> 私があちらの妹さんを知っている人



I'm afraid none of these sound natural.

Let me put it this way: if you ever need to talk about someone with whom you have a secondary relationship, you should initially call him or her, your _primary_'s <your _secondary_>.  Also, the secondary has to be a noun that is more descriptive than just _a person_, whereas your primary can be merely _an acquaintance_ or _a friend_.

For example, _the person whose father I know_ has to be one of these: my friend's son (私の友人の息子）, my friend's daughter （私の友人の娘）, my friend's child (私の友人の子供）, and any replacement of _friend_ with _acquaintance_ (知人 or 知り合い).  There are still variations, for example, ones with or without honorifics.  But I hope these examples give you the basic idea.

You can extend this approach to your tertiary: e.g., 私の旧友の息子の友達 or _my old friend's son's friend_.  Or even to your quaternary: e.g., 私のクラスメートのお父さんの同僚のいとこ or _my classmate's father's colleague's cousin_.


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## nikorai

*divisortheory*
Thank you for your suggestions.


> but I'm curious what it sounds like to a native speaker.


Same here.

There are still a few questions left though.

*akimura*
Thank you for your effort to explain.


> an/the older brother of my acquaintance's


You know what confuses me is that
This phrase – ‘the person whose sister I know’
Means I know the sister but I have nothing to do with her brother.
つまり、この人のお姉さんを知っていますが、彼女の弟に関係がありません。

But in this example


> 私の知人のお兄さん


It's 'the brother of my acquaintance'. 
The situation is opposite here. I know 'the person' (i.e. he is my friend) but I have nothing to do with his brother (or sister).
How do I avoid this confusion?

*divisortheory*-san caught the English meaning but the literal translation into Japanese sounds a bit strange as *akimura*-san has pointed out.


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## Flaminius

*Nikolai*, it is difficult in Japanese to create a relative clause with a genitive noun.  In highly technical or formal context, その is used in the relative clause in the place where the posticedent (?) would be expected in a simple sentence but this is seldom applicable in a casual context like yours.
その中の点が全て内点であるような集合を、開集合という。

Translating a phrase like “L’homme dont je connais la sœur” into natural Japanese needs the whole sentence.  So let me create one:
ピエールさんという人がいて、わたしはその妹さんと友達なのであるが、彼が今度の人事異動で私の部署の責任者に着任するらしい。


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## nikorai

*Flaminius*さん！
ご説明、ありがとうございます。とても勉強になりました。
でも結局、このような英語の文章の意味を伝えるために、言い換えなければなりませんね。
分かりました。改めて、お手伝いありがとうございました。


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## akimura

nikorai said:


> *akimura*
> Thank you for your effort to explain.
> You know what confuses me is that
> This phrase – ‘the person whose sister I know’
> Means I know the sister but I have nothing to do with her brother.
> つまり、この人のお姉さんを知っていますが、彼女の弟に関係がありません。



Yes, I understand.



nikorai said:


> But in this example
> It's 'the brother of my acquaintance'.
> The situation is opposite here. I know 'the person' (i.e. he is my friend) but I have nothing to do with his brother (or sister).
> How do I avoid this confusion?



I believe I've got your relationship correctly.  I meant, "the acquaintance = (the) sister I know", and "the person = her brother".


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## divisortheory

nikorai said:


> *divisortheory*
> *akimura*
> Thank you for your effort to explain.
> You know what confuses me is that
> This phrase – ‘the person whose sister I know’
> Means I know the sister but I have nothing to do with her brother.
> つまり、この人のお姉さんを知っていますが、彼女の弟に関係がありません。
> 
> But in this example
> It's 'the brother of my acquaintance'.
> The situation is opposite here. I know 'the person' (i.e. he is my friend) but I have nothing to do with his brother (or sister).
> How do I avoid this confusion?
> 
> *divisortheory*-san caught the English meaning but the literal translation into Japanese sounds a bit strange as *akimura*-san has pointed out.



I think right here akimura-sensei explained it best with this quote:



			
				akimura said:
			
		

> For example, the person whose father I know has to be one of these: my friend's son (私の友人の息子）, my friend's daughter （私の友人の娘）, my friend's child (私の友人の子供）, and any replacement of friend with acquaintance (知人 or 知り合い). There are still variations, for example, ones with or without honorifics. But I hope these examples give you the basic idea.



So if you want to say "the person(A) whose sister(B) I know" then you are trying to refer to A, yes?  Well, then B is your acquaintance.  and A must be one of:
Ｂさんの妹、Ｂさんの弟、Ｂさんの姉、Ｂさんの兄.

Thus, can you say 私の友達の兄, or one of the other 3 choices.  Here, 友達 is B and 兄 is A, thus you are still referring to A.


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## nikorai

*divisortheory*
Thank you very much for explaining it once again. I’m sorry I’m a bit slow.


> Thus, can you say 私の友達の兄


Still I can't help but read this as «my friend's brother (i.e the brother of my friend).
Same as akimura-sensei has suggested


> my friend's daughter
> 私の友人の娘





> So if you want to say "the person(A) whose sister(B) I know" then you are trying to refer to A, yes? Well, then B is your acquaintance. and A must be one of:
> Ｂさんの妹、Ｂさんの弟、Ｂさんの姉、Ｂさんの兄.


Exactly. But when you try to combine these with 'who I know' the result is ambiguous.

What I've concluded from the above examples is that the phrases like
"the person who I know who has a sister
and 'the person whose sister I know' sound the same in Japanese.

So in the end, I assume it’s better to paraphrase it to avoid this double meaning.


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## divisortheory

nikorai said:


> *divisortheory*
> Exactly. But when you try to combine these with 'who I know' the result is ambiguous.



Well, if he's your friend, then certainly you know him right   The friend part implies the "who I know" part, there is no need to add anything additional.



			
				nikorai said:
			
		

> What I've concluded from the above examples is that the phrases like
> "the person who I know who has a sister
> and 'the person whose sister I know' sound the same in Japanese.


When i think about it, it sounds the same in English too.

1: The person(A) whose brother(B) I know.
2: My acquiantance's (B's) sister/brother(A).

These have exactly the same meaning right?  They unambiguously refer to the same person.  Another case:

1: The person whose husband I know
2: My acquaintance's wife

The only difference with English is that in English you can say it both ways, in Japanese it seems you can only say it by first converting to 2.  Either way, meaning is identical.


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## nikorai

*divisortheory*
Oh, this is great.


> it seems you can only say it by first converting to 2.


So in this phrase 私の友達の兄
we just don't specify the sister from the original example because I'm supposed to know who my friend is.
Thanks a lot again. I was just slow at first to get how the conversion works. Finally it somehow settled in my head.


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## Wishfull

nikorai said:


> Hello!
> I’d appreciate if you could clear up a few things for me. I was recently revising my poor French by looking through phrases in my dictionary. And I was thinking at the same time how to say the same thing in Japanese (which I know much worse). It turned out that I have troubles with subordinate clauses.
> 
> The English phrase is
> “The person whose sister I know”
> In French you’d have to use the complicated word ‘dont’ here.
> “L’homme dont je connais la sœur”.
> 
> But what about Japanese? What I came up with is this:
> 私の知っている姉のいる人。
> 
> Does it convey the meaning?



その方のお姉さん（妹さん）とは（私は）面識がある人物


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## nikorai

*Wishfull*


> その方のお姉さん（妹さん）とは（私は）面識がある人物


It's like «His sister is the person who I know». This is an interesting way to express the idea.
Thank you for your suggestion.


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## akimura

Actually, Wishfull's suggestion captures the structure of "the person whose sister I know" well.  I'm nicely surprised to see that the use of 面識がある, the structure of which is "noun+particle+auxiliary verb", functions as a phrasal verb to enable it fantastically.  I still think that my initial suggestions would work better, and it's more natural in many cases, but Wishfull's suggestion would work as well.

Based on Wishfull's idea, I now think that 私が(I)+お姉さま（妹さん）とは(whose sister)+面識がある(know)+人物(the person) should work.  I would more likely prefer 方, a gender neutral translation of the gentleman/lady to 人物(the person), depending on context, though.


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## Wishfull

akimura said:


> I still think that my initial suggestions would work better, and it's more natural in many cases,


I agree with* akimura.*
I too think #1-#12 discussion is better.
In Japanese, we usually use a different syntax to describe the original English sentence's context.

///////////////////////////
_
私が(I)+お姉さま（妹さん）とは(whose sister)+面識がある(know)+人物(the person) _
_その方のお姉さん（妹さん）とは（私は）面識がある人物 _
_　私がお姉さまとは面識があるところの人物_

These sentences are not classical, standard, natural syntax of Japanese language, I think.
These are 翻訳体 (translation style), which is used for describing foreign-literature-syntax's translation, which is weird in a certain point of view.
But in another point of view, it might be natural, because we now see a lot of 翻訳体（translation style), and we've got accustomed to it.

To be honest with you, I hate to write 翻訳体 in this forum.
I don't want to admit that 翻訳体　is the correct, standard Japanese.
Yet, sometimes 翻訳体　is very convenient to translate literally. Especially in English lessons.


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