# iDafa/iDaafa الإضافة in both mubtada2 مبتدأ and khabar خبر without huwa هو



## Idris

I want to say, "The doctor's son is the patient's friend." Is it okay to say this in MSA like this:

ابن الطبيب صديق المريض

without using هو in between like this:

ابن الطبيب هو صديق المريض

?


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## إسكندراني

Yes, I prefer the first way actually.


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## benss

Salâm,

in a book, i've read that using the pronoun as you did, that is putting it between the _mubtada_ and the _khabar,_ is allowed when the latter is _ma3rifa_ (definite), which is the case in your example.
Moreover, it might be for me that the sense switches a bite from your first to your second sentence.
Let me try to explain.

When you say: 


ابن الطبيب صديق المريض ( 1


it literally means: " _The doctor's son is the patient's friend._ " (as you rightly mentioned)

while:

ابن الطبيب هو صديق المريض ( 2

would means "_The doctor's son, He is the patient's friend." _So, here in 2, you can imagine saying a dialogue like:

-  Ahmed say: "ابن الطبيب صديق المدرس"
-  Mohammed replies: "لا ,ابن الطبيب هو صديق المريض "

it's like if the Mohammed contradicts a Ahmed. So, Mohammed uses the pronoun هو to focus on who is really the doctor's son.
Got it ?
Another situation would be: you have two boys one tall name Aziz and the second little named Bachir.
_So you can say: Aziz houa al-oualadou al kabirou ou Bachir houa al-oualadou al-Saghîrou.

_
Right ? That's how it sounds for me.

However, as for the grammatical function/role of هو i don't know

Hope it helps.


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## Learning Arabic

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
السلام عليكم
Generally (and someone please correct me if i'm wrong), adding the هو would signify that you're emphasizing that the it is the Dr.'s son who is the patient's friend.  So they are both correct, but you would say the second sentence if you want to add emphasis on the Dr.'s son, that he's the friend of the patient.

And someone please correct me if i'm wrong and Allahu 'alam


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## benss

Learning Arabic said:


> بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
> السلام عليكم
> Generally (and someone please correct me if i'm wrong), adding the هو would signify that you're emphasizing that the it is the Dr.'s son who is the patient's friend.  So they are both correct, but you would say the second sentence if you want to add emphasis on the Dr.'s son, that he's the friend of the patient.
> 
> And someone please correct me if i'm wrong and Allahu 'alam




That's right !


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## إسكندراني

Yes; benss got it mixed up  but the point is there is emphasis when you use هو


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## Abu Talha

It seems to me that all you need to avoid a pronoun* is the absence of a definite article in the خبر. For example, you could say (I think)
الطبيب صديق المريض
and it would mean, "The doctor *is *the patient's friend." 

Also, the only way it could _not _be interpreted as المبتدأ and الخبر is if صديق المريض was a false iDaafa (albeit a weird one), in which case you would have to say
الطبيبُ الصديقُ المريضِ ...

Is that right, do you think?
----
*By the way, even if the khabar has the article, it does not necessarily need the pronoun as discussed in this recent thread: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2262235


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## إسكندراني

Your suggested false idhafa doesn't exist  one can only say
الطبيب الصديق للمريض


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## Abu Talha

إسكندراني said:


> Your suggested false idhafa doesn't exist


heh, I guess it doesn't.
Best use the textbook example: الرجلُ كثيرُ المالِ for "The man is wealthy," and الرجلُ الكثيرُ المالِ for, "The wealthy man."


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## إسكندراني

daee said:


> heh, I guess it doesn't.
> Best use the textbook example: الرجلُ كثيرُ المالِ for "The man is wealthy," and الرجلُ الكثيرُ المالِ for, "The wealthy man."


This is rare, and I can't think of a situation where you'd really need هو because it's like with all the other حركات - the context clarifies what you mean


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## ayed

It is a mere personal interpretation:
ابن الطبيب صديق المريض 
The doctor's son, the patient's friend( in this case, _the patient's friend _is an *appositive*:_badal_)

ابن الطبيب هو صديف المريض I would say as has just been said: The doctor's son is the patient's friend.


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## benss

إسكندراني said:


> Yes; benss got it mixed up  but the point is there is emphasis when you use هو



How did i get it mix up ?

Could you please explain me.

Thanks.


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## إسكندراني

اقتراحك​


> -  Ahmed say: ابن الطبيب صديق المدرس
> -  Mohammed replies: لا ,ابن الطبيب هو صديق المريض


أما الصواب​


> Ahmed: فلان صديق المدرس
> Mohammed replies: لا، علّان هو صديق المدرس


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## benss

إسكندراني said:


> اقتراحك
> 
> 
> أما الصواب​




BârakAllahoufik brother.
Could you also give me the translation of "علّان" please ? Is it a " حرف ردع " or maybe " حرف جواب " ?

Thanks a lot brother.


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## cherine

3ellaan عِلاّن is just another form of fulaan فُلاّن when we want to talk about 2 person and don't have/know their names.


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## benss

Thank you cherine,

Is عِلاّن used in Egyptian dialect or in "classical arabic" (Fus7a) ?

By the way, if عِلاّن is like فُلاّن then i don't see what's wrong when using "ابن الطبيب" in place of عِلاّن as brother *إسكندراني* suggested me in:



> -  Ahmed say: ابن الطبيب صديق المدرس
> -  Mohammed replies: لا ,ابن الطبيب هو صديق المريض




Sorry for insisting but i just wanna make things clear in my mind.


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## إسكندراني

I don't know if علّان is classical but you can use it in modern fusHa with فلان - just like زيد وعبيد
Only use هو if the person preceding it changes.


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## benss

BârakAllahoufik إسكندراني

By the way I've created another discussion regarding the use of علّان here: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2304917&p=11567204#post11567204


Thanks.


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## إسكندراني

benss said:


> BârakAllahoufik إسكندراني
> 
> By the way I've created another discussion regarding the use of علّان here: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2304917&p=11567204#post11567204
> 
> 
> Thanks.


وفيك بارك الله


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## Ibn Nacer

ayed said:


> It is a mere personal interpretation:
> ابن الطبيب صديق المريض
> The doctor's son, the patient's friend( in this case, _the patient's friend _is an *appositive*:_badal_)
> 
> ابن الطبيب هو صديف المريض I would say as has just been said: The doctor's son is the patient's friend.



I think like you. For me in this case the pronoun removes the ambiguity (it separates the mubtada- and the khabar which are both definites by an annexation). In other cases this pronom can provide an emphasis.


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## barkoosh

When one thinks Arabic, his brain would automatically put what is verb "to be" in the middle of ابن الطبيب صديق المريض when the sentence is complete.
For example, two persons are talking to each other:
-  لماذا يُولي الطبيب هذا المريض عناية مميزة؟ Why is the doctor taking special care of this patient?
- ابن الطبيب صديق المريض The doctor's son is the patient's friend.

The sentence is complete and the meaning is understood without هو, although هو can be used even when no emphasis is intended.

However, when the sentence is incomplete, one could tell that it's "badal":
‫ابن الطبيب صديق المريض...

For example, 
-  لماذا يُولي الطبيب هذا المريض عناية مميزة؟ Why is the doctor taking special care of this patient?
-  ابن الطبيب صديق المريض طلب ذلك من أبيه The doctor's son, the patient's friend, asked his father to.
(using commas in Arabic is preferable: ابن الطبيب، صديق المريض، طلب ذلك من أبيه)


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## Ibn Nacer

Merci Barkoosh pour ces précisions.


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