# se te, se le, se nos, se ha



## jota_pe

Hi everyone i've been studying and learning spanish for a little over three years now and I'm doing ok! However I still can not grasp the pronombre "se" in certain aspects of its usage and I am hoping that you fine people can help me out a little bit.  

I know already that basicly
se ha realizado means it has been accomplished but what I wish to know is 

Does the "se" mean the action of it being accomplished?

also why is "se" placed before the "te" in the following sentance?

Al verla, Jesús se dirigió a ella y le dijo: “Mujer se te pone en libertad de tu debilidad.”

In english the same phase would be "Woman you are released from your weakness."
What I really wish to know is if anyone could explain why the se is placed before the se, le, te, or nos here are some examples.

se te pone en libertad 
se le llama
se le llame
se nos a dado
se te ocurre algo mas?

I've asked many spanish speaking friends to explain its usage "se" , however to them its easy to comprehend having been raised speeking spanish and they can not really give me a clear answer to which im satisfied.  I know someone out there can help me understand.  

Thank you very much!!!
jadon


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## Rayines

Hallo, jota pe:"Se" is used in these cases to form Passive Voice; the pronoun "se" is accompanied by the verb in Active Voice and the subject is only possible in third person singular or plural. It's called in Spanish "Pasiva refleja". In your examples, you say "Se te pone en libertad", instead of "Tú eres puesto en libertad".


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## Tino_no

Yo- se me
Tú- se te
El/Ella- se le
Nosotros- se nos
Ustedes- se les
Ellos- Se les

Espero que esto te ayude


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## jota_pe

So if...
se te pone en libertad = Tú eres puesto en libertad

¿se te ocurre algo más? would mean = ?

also 
se le y se les are used in the Passive Voice?


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## jacinta

jota_pe said:
			
		

> So if...
> se te pone en libertad = Tú eres puesto en libertad
> 
> ¿se te ocurre algo más? would mean = ?


Did you think of anything else?
Or:
Can you think of anything else?

Now, you are not going to like this translation because it will make no sense to you if you try to figure out literally what the Spanish means.  You just can't translate things literally.


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## jota_pe

se te pone en libertad = Tú eres puesto en libertad.    means almost the same thing.

¿se te ocurre algo más? significaria = ?

queria una respuesta en espanol


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## Eugens

Hi! 
The matter of when using the "se", or rather, the function the "se" perfoms in different kinds of sentences is complex to explain. We native speakers use it instinctively, many times being unaware of which syntactic function the "se" is fulfilling in our sentences. We just use it. This may be the reason why your Spanish-speaking friends can tell you whether or not a certain sentence should carry a "se", but not explain you exactly why.

In high school, I was taught that, when parsing sentences, we could find 5 types of "se's". Namely:
1) "se" as a direct object
2) "se" as an indirect object
3) "se" to indicate passive voice 
4) "se" as "signo de cuasi-reflejo" o "se cuasi-refleja" (I don't know how to translate this)
5) impersonal se

I have dug out my ring binders from that time in order to give you an example of a "se" of each type:
1) El llanto acaba siempre en el momento en que uno *se* suena enérgicamente.
2) Los vecinos *se* lo comunicaron al Jefe de Gobierno porteño.
3) A partir de la expulsión de los jesuitas, *se* impone a los indios la lengua castellana obligatoria y única.
4) Nadie *se* resigna a quedar mudo y sin memoria. o *Se *alegraron al saber la noticia.
5) En las misiones *se *hablaba en guaraní y *se* leía en guaraní.

Unfortunately, I myself have forgotten a lot about these classifications. Maybe someone might find a good website (there must be one) explaining this further.
I hope this has helped a little.


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## Eugens

jota_pe said:
			
		

> se te pone en libertad = Tú eres puesto en libertad. means almost the same thing.
> 
> ¿se te ocurre algo más? significaria = ?
> 
> queria una respuesta en espanol


I think that the only case you can do the transformation you want to do from sentence with "se" to sentence in passive voice is, precisely, when your original sentence has a "se" to indicate passive voice. For example in my sentence number 3, it would be: 
3) A partir de la expulsión de los jesuitas, la lengua castellana obligatoria y única es impuesta a los indios.

De todos modos, repito, no me acuerdo mucho. Hice una búsqueda rápida en internet y encontré estos dos sitios (me parece que los tipos de "se" en estos lugares aparecen con nombres diferentes de los que yo di). Quizá alguien encuentre un sitio mejor o pueda explicar el tema mejor. 
Clasificación de las construcciones con se
Tipos de SE
¡Saludos!


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## Artrella

jota_pe said:
			
		

> Hi everyone i've been studying and learning spanish for a little over three years now and I'm doing ok! However I still can not grasp the pronombre "se" in certain aspects of its usage and I am hoping that you fine people can help me out a little bit.
> 
> I know already that basicly
> se ha realizado means it has been accomplished but what I wish to know is
> 
> Does the "se" mean the action of it being accomplished?  *>>  No, the action being accomplished is shown by the passive voice, that "se" is referred to the indirect object >> "poner el libertad a la mujer  "*
> also why is "se" placed before the "te" in the following sent*e*nce?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The passive se may be followed by an indirect object pronoun indicating the person who undergoes the action of the verb (to whom?)*:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Al verla, Jesús se dirigió a ella y le dijo: “Mujer se te pone en libertad de tu debilidad.”
> 
> In english the same phase would be "Woman you are released from your weakness."
> What I really wish to know is if anyone could explain why the se is placed before the se, le, te, or nos here are some examples.
> 
> se te pone en libertad
> se le llama
> se le llame
> se nos *h*a dado
> se te ocurre algo mas?  *>>> en estos casos el "se" está referido al objeto indirecto*
> I've asked many spanish speaking friends to explain its usage "se" , however to them its easy to comprehend having been raised spe*a*king spanish and they can not really give me a clear answer to which im satisfied.  I know someone out there can help me understand.
> 
> Thank you very much!!!
> jadon
Click to expand...





> Spanish avoids the passive with ser when the agent of the action is unknown or irrelevant.  The most common way of expressing a passive idea in Spanish –that something happens, but without expressing who in particular does it–, is by using se with a verb in the third person:



  Mira esto


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## Rayines

> se te pone en libertad
> se le llama
> se le llame
> se nos *h*a dado
> se te ocurre algo mas?


*Hola, jota_pe: Mira, de tus ejemplos, comparando con el cuadro que tan bien dio Eugen, se corresponderían de la siguiente manera:* 
**Se te pone en libertad >>>>Tú eres puesto en libertad>>>>3)*
**Se le llama>>>>>Él es llamado >>>>>>3)*
**Se nos ha dado >>>>Algo ha sido dado a nosotros>>>>puede entrar en 3) o en 5) (impersonal): a veces hay dudas entre estos dos.*
**Se te ocurre algo más?>>>>Está utilizado como verbo pronominal, en el sentido de venirse una idea a la mente de repente (RAE), se conjuga siempre con el pronombre: ocurrírseme, ocurrírsete, etc. No sé si entraría en la forma 4) (cuasi-refleja), aquí yo estaría en duda.*

*Como ves, no es nada fácil. **Cualquier cosa, preguntanos otros ejemplos concretos en los que dudes.*


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## jota_pe

Muchísimas gracias a todos ustedes tanto los de habla hispana como ingles por ayudarme a entender ese asunto del idioma.
Sigo apriendiendo

jae pee


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## jota_pe

Hi agian
which would be correct.

Se le cayó las plumas or
Se le cayeron las plumas?


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## mylam

The subject of the sentence is "las plumas", so it's "Se le cayeron las plumas."


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## Stoichkov8

jota_pe said:
			
		

> se te pone en libertad = Tú eres puesto en libertad. means almost the same thing.
> 
> ¿se te ocurre algo más? significaria = ?
> 
> queria una respuesta en espanol


 
Se te ocurre algo mas?= ¿Can you come up with anything else?


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## Paul Wessen

Perhaps it will help you if I add one other approach which I have found helpful, because the whole *se* thing was troublsome for me, too.

In many, many cases. /se/ is used when the Verb in English is used with a Preposition.  For example.
Juan ate it.  (Juan lo comió)   but:  Juan ate it UP.   (Juan SE lo comió.)
I woke UP = ME despertó.
Ana sat DOWN. =  Ana SE sentó.
Jorge went AWAY = Jorge SE fué      etc, etc, etc

If you know any German, you will find the same pattern regarding separable prefixes.

Hope this helps a bit.

--------------------------  Paul


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## nikvin

Paul, your example seems good, up to a point..........
john ate it, and john ate it up dont really quite mean the same, in English...

but  I woke up at 8. or I woke at 8 would both have the same meaning and be me desperté a las 8

she sat down on the sofa, she sat on the sofa, se sentó en el sofá

he went away, he went to the match, se fué ,se fué al partido...........

Basically, most useages are something that just doesnt happen in English
so can´t really be equated  to english examples, except, when in English one would use  myself, etc . 
somewhat old fashioned and not often used in English is the _one _format , 
easier for a french speaker when _on_ is more naturally used , and ofetn comes close to the use of _se_ in Spanish


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## Paul Wessen

Hello, Nivkin, and thanks for your interest.
I didn't mean to imply that the translations of my examples would always be precise.  However, bear in mind that we are trying to give some direction (no matter how feeble) to a student who is haplessly thrashing around trying to find _any crutch_ to lead him out of the wilderness.  So perhaps my advice concerning the prepositions should be...
"If you can _possibly_ find _any way_ to use the English verb with a preposition (that doesn't have its own object, of course) in _this sentence any other sentence_, then your _best bet_ is that you can use _se_ with the Spanish Verb."   "And get it right most of the time."

I believe I can stand by my example with _eating_.

Poppa Bear _ate_ his porridge.  (normal behavior, nothing startling about that),  but Goldilocks *ate* Baby Bear's porridge *all up.  *(Horrors!!!  Wolfed it down, as it were!)

Ana comió su pizza con gentileza, porque es bien educada, pero Jorge *se *lo *comió* la suya como si fuera  hambriente. 

  Saludos  ----------------------  Paul

                                               ***** correcciones bienvenidas  *****


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## nikvin

Paul

totally agree about trying to help, however........ sometimes...one can give wrong idea, hence my post.
I DID and do agree with you re the eating example.........
not so much with the others.

comerse, tends to mean eat it al up, wolf it down, rather than just eat...........
Sometimes (personal opinion admittedly) a little help, can be counterproductive to (some) people, because rather than taking things as a clue to the right direction they can take it as gospel!

The whole reflexive verb thing can be difficult for English only speakers to take on board, especially as in may instances, it isnt needed , in order to be understood, although occasionally the meaning changes. Abit like learning that _to be, can be ser/ estar / and sometimes tener. _A concept thats hard to grasp, and some simplified suggestions, can be harmful in the long run


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## DaleC

As for word order: there is no reason for it, at least from the standpoint of practical language teaching. It's like asking why English statements have the default order subject verb object. (If reasons could be traced, the arguments would be too theoretical for the masses to follow, and they would probably, as mentioned, have no practical implications for helping learners learn better). 

se, te, me, le, lo, la, nos, and os are not just any pronouns. They're unstressed pronouns (termed clitics). Clitics have an obligatory order with respect to one another. The order in Spanish is se, 2d person, 1st person, 3d person. 

As for meaning: 'se' has many meanings, even one or two that are not generally recognized, but only have been discussed in linguistics journals. Textbooks for the general learner recognize five meanings. Apparently, you feel you already grasp the meanings, you just wanted to give names to them and refine your understanding. 

But to answer a specific statement you made: no, 'se' does not refer to completion of action. 'se' as a pronoun refers to a participant in the action or event.


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## Outsider

Paul Wessen said:
			
		

> Juan ate it.  (Juan lo comió)   but:  Juan ate it UP.   (Juan SE lo comió.)
> I woke UP = ME desperté.
> Ana sat DOWN. =  Ana SE sentó.
> Jorge went AWAY = Jorge SE fué      etc, etc, etc


...I think.



			
				Paul Wessen said:
			
		

> "If you can _possibly_ find _any way_ to use the English verb with a preposition (that doesn't have its own object, of course) in _this sentence any other sentence_, then your _best bet_ is that you can use _se_ with the Spanish Verb."   "And get it right most of the time."


In many cases, the Spanish verb is also prepositional, or simple, though. I dare say in most cases.



			
				DaleC said:
			
		

> As for word order: there is no reason for it, at least from the standpoint of practical language teaching. It's like asking why English statements have the default order subject verb object. (If reasons could be traced, the arguments would be too theoretical for the masses to follow, and they would probably, as mentioned, have no practical implications for helping learners learn better).
> 
> se, te, me, le, lo, la, nos, and os are not just any pronouns. They're unstressed pronouns (termed clitics). Clitics have an obligatory order with respect to one another. The order in Spanish is se, 2d person, 1st person, 3d person.


When one of the pronouns is "se", it always comes first.

Regarding the meaning of these pronouns, see this.


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## Alude

¿Entonces no hay una traducción literal para "se..."?

¿Cómo sería la oración "Su alma se pudre"?

________

Edit: Perdón Rayines, para la próxima leeré todo.


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## Rayines

Alude said:
			
		

> ¿Entonces no hay una traducción literal para "se..."?
> 
> ¿Cómo sería la oración "Su alma se pudre"?


Alude: has traído a la luz este viejísimo thread; te recomiendo leerlo cuidadosamente. En sus respuestas, los links y otros threads a los que remiten, está absolutamente contestada tu pregunta.
Creo que *pudrirse* es simplemente un verbo pronominal.
"Se" puede traducirse en algunos casos, como en los verbos reflexivos (itself/himself/herself).


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## Ivy29

jota_pe said:


> Hi agian
> which would be correct.
> 
> Se le cayó las plumas or
> Se le cayeron las plumas?


Este 'SE' es un NON-FAULT SE.
se le cayeron las plumas.

Hay situaciones con los clíticos distintas a tus ejemplos :
Según KANY, autor citado por OLGA FERNÁNDEZ, en su libro los pronombres átonos, pág 26 : < en Hispanoamérica es habitual colocar el morfema de plural de un ACUSATIVO singular, si va precedido por un dativo referido a más de una persona.


LES (IO) doy el regalo (singular, DO) a los niños (IO)=
SE LOS DOY. Correct.

Ivy29


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## Jellby

Ivy29 said:


> Según KANY, autor citado por OLGA FERNÁNDEZ, en su libro los pronombres átonos, pág 26 : < en Hispanoamérica es habitual colocar el morfema de plural de un ACUSATIVO singular, si va precedido por un dativo referido a más de una persona.
> 
> LES (IO) doy el regalo (singular, DO) a los niños (IO)=
> SE LOS DOY. Correct.



Que se haga no quiere decir que sea correcto. A esta costumbre en particular no le veo el sentido, "lo" se refiere al regalo, ponerlo en plural porque se lo dé a varias personas... no encaja.

Si doy una flor... ¿"se las doy"?
Si os doy un regalo a vosotros (aunque ya sé que en América no se usa): ¿"os los doy"? ¿"te los doy"?
Si doy un regalo a ellas... ¿"se las doy"? (si puedo desplazar el plural, ¿por qué no el femenino?)

Estoy de acuerdo con que se usa, y cuando uno se acostumbra puede parecer intuitivo en un primer momento. Pero no puedo aceptar que sea correcto.


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## Ivy29

Jellby said:


> Que se haga no quiere decir que sea correcto. A esta costumbre en particular no le veo el sentido, "lo" se refiere al regalo, ponerlo en plural porque se lo dé a varias personas... no encaja.
> 
> Si doy una flor... ¿"se las doy"?
> Si os doy un regalo a vosotros (aunque ya sé que en América no se usa): ¿"os los doy"? ¿"te los doy"?
> Si doy un regalo a ellas... ¿"se las doy"? (si puedo desplazar el plural, ¿por qué no el femenino?)
> *PORQUE el femenino no es el acusativo de la frase, y esta es una ley creada y estudiada por KANY, citado por la autora que señalo más abajo*
> Estoy de acuerdo con que se usa, y cuando uno se acostumbra puede parecer intuitivo en un primer momento. Pero no puedo aceptar que sea correcto.


 
*Según la autora Olga Fernández Soriano es correcta, pues es una ley (KANY) de transformación de los clíticos. Tú que estás en ESPAÑA, le puedes escribir a la UNIVERSIDAD AUTÓNOMA de Madrid donde es PROFESORA y le señalas ese error.*
*A mí me suena muy bien y correcta.*
* Como el incremento clítico de objeto indirecto de las construcción IMPERSONAL : se respeta a los ancianos = SE LES RESPETA. ( a pesar de ser COMPLEMENTO DIRECTO : a los ancianos.*
Felicidades
Ivy29


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## Jellby

Ivy29 said:


> Según la autora Olga Fernández Soriano es correcta, pues es una ley (KANY) de transformación de los clíticos. Tú que estás en ESPAÑA, le puedes escribir a la UNIVERSIDAD AUTÓNOMA de Madrid donde es PROFESORA y le señalas ese error.



Es posible que lo haga, pero para escribir por correo electrónico (incluso por correo normal) no es necesario estar en España, si la señora Fernández estuviera en la Isla de Pascua, también podría escribirle 



> A mí me suena muy bien y correcta.
> Como el incremento clítico de objeto indirecto de las construcción IMPERSONAL : se respeta a los ancianos = SE LES RESPETA. ( a pesar de ser COMPLEMENTO DIRECTO : a los ancianos.



Pero ¿te has parado a pensar en la lógica?

Les doy un regalo a los niños
Se _(a los niños)_ lo _(un regalo)_ doy
¿Cómo se justifica poner "lo", que se refiere a "un regalo" en plural?

El ejemplo que pones de oraciones impersonales es otro cantar, ahí sí se pone el plural en el pronombre que tiene un referente plural:

Se respeta a los ancianos
Se les/los _(a los ancianos)_ respeta


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## Hiro Sasaki

> Se te pone en libetad = Tu eres puesto en libertad.


Parece que no esta todavia en libertad, y entonces, quiere decir "Tu 
sera en libertad en un un futuro muy cercano ? 

saludos

Hiro Sasaki


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## baz259

Hi, would these sentences be correct using se
Se puede comprar //// aqui= can one buy //// here
Se ve los torres de aqui= one can see the towers from here.
barry


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## Rayines

Hiro Sasaki said:


> Quote:
> Se te pone en libetad = Tu eres puesto en libertad.
> 
> Parece que no esta todavia en libertad, y entonces, quiere decir "Tu sera en libertad en un un futuro muy cercano ?
> 
> saludos
> 
> Hiro Sasaki


Hola Hiro: puedes mantener ambas estructuras en el futuro: 

_"Serás puesto en libertad (próximamente)"_>>> *voz pasiva*, 
o 
_"Se te pondrá en libertad (próximamente)" >>>_* pasiva refleja *(con "se").

Coloquialmente, más bien diríamos (por lo menos en Argentina):
_"Te van a poner en libertad próximamente" _(Recuerda el hilo sobre "presente perfecto y futuro") .


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## Rayines

baz259 said:


> Hi, would these sentences be correct using se
> Se puede comprar //// aqui= can one buy //// here
> Se ve*n* l*a*s torres de*sde* aqu*í*= one can see the towers from here.(The verb must agree with the number of the noun, because it's a Direct Object)
> barry


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## Ivy29

Jellby said:


> Es posible que lo haga, pero para escribir por correo electrónico (incluso por correo normal) no es necesario estar en España, si la señora Fernández estuviera en la Isla de Pascua, también podría escribirle
> 
> 
> 
> Pero ¿te has parado a pensar en la lógica?
> 
> Les doy un regalo a los niños
> Se _(a los niños)_ lo _(un regalo)_ doy
> ¿Cómo se justifica poner "lo", que se refiere a "un regalo" en plural?
> 
> *Es la ley de KANY en la transformación de los clíticos una autoridad mundial en CLÍTICOS. Hay casos especiales ( muchos) en español o cualquier otra lengua. *
> *Aquí tienes otro caso El que yo sea médico ( falso subjuntivo) pues soy médico, y es correcto.*
> 
> El ejemplo que pones de oraciones impersonales es otro cantar, ahí sí se pone el plural en el pronombre que tiene un referente plural:
> *PERO es 'LES' usado para complemento directo ( plural) sería incorrecto según las* normas del uso de LES complemento átono para OBJETO INDIRECTO o DATIVO.
> 
> Se respeta a los ancianos
> Se les/los _(a los ancianos)_ respeta


 

Ivy29


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## generatrix

This is the way I always describe the pasiva refleja to myself:

Jesus se dirigió 
Jesus directed himself

se te pone en libertad 
It puts itself -- to you -- in liberty

se nos ha dado
it has given itself to us

se te ocurre 
it occurs itself to you

Inanimate objects, or concepts, if you will, are personified when the reflexive construction is used.  

se te pone en libertad 
In this case, an abstract "it" puts itself to you.  "It" being the totality of circumstances in the world.  

se te ocurre
In this case, "it" is the thing which may (or may not) have occurred to the listener.
It occurs itself to you


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## Ivy29

generatrix said:


> This is the way I always describe the pasiva refleja to myself:
> 
> Jesus se dirigió
> Jesus directed himself
> 
> se te pone en libertad
> It puts itself -- to you -- in liberty
> 
> se nos ha dado
> it has given itself to us
> 
> se te ocurre
> it occurs itself to you
> 
> Inanimate objects, or concepts, if you will, are personified when the reflexive construction is used.
> 
> se te pone en libertad
> In this case, an abstract "it" puts itself to you. "It" being the totality of circumstances in the world.
> 
> se te ocurre
> In this case, "it" is the thing which may (or may not) have occurred to the listener.
> It occurs itself to you


 

SE TE OCURRE, this verb is pronominal so the 'SE' is a marker of the verb, and the 'ITSELF' has NOT place there.
Also with IMPERSONAL construction because there is NOT subject.

Ivy29


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## generatrix

Ivy29 said:


> SE TE OCURRE, this verb is pronominal so the 'SE' is a marker of the verb, and the 'ITSELF' has NOT place there.
> Also with IMPERSONAL construction because there is NOT subject.
> 
> Ivy29



I understand that the Spanish phrases (e.g., "se te occurre") that I used above are not typically described in the way that I described them, and also that the different phrases I used have different textbook grammatical classifications from each other. Se te Occure -- "it" (the idea) occurred itself to me. This interpretation _works_ despite the typical grammatical explanation.  Grammatical classifcations are the "map" not the "territory."


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## Ivy29

generatrix said:


> I understand that the Spanish phrases (e.g., "se te occurre") that I used above are not typically described in the way that I described them, and also that the different phrases I used have different textbook grammatical classifications from each other. Se te Occure -- "it" (the idea) occurred itself to me. This interpretation _works_ despite the typical grammatical explanation. Grammatical classifcations are the "map" not the "territory."


 
I do agree with your perception of  ITSELF but in Spanish the PRONOMINAL VERB, especially the OBLIGATORY PRONOMINALS is just a marker ( necessary,  in INTRANSITIVE VERBS this personal increment with ME, TE, SE, NOS, OS is a type of *reflexive*  ( describing the person acting as the GRAMMATICAL SUBJECT). In  the facultative PRONOMINAL, the pronouns used change the meaning using 'SE' or not .
SPECIFICATION = Las tropas ocuparon la ciudad; los concejales se OCUPAN DE LA CIUDAD ( It is a prepositional object= de la ciudad).

To clarify your PERCEPTION which is CORRECT, ONLY in the obligatory usage of the REAL PRONOMINALS the SE is a MARKER as in IMPERSONAL CONSTRUCTION, but in the others is a REFLEXIVE as you clearly stated.
Thanks for your question and statement.
Feliz tarde
Ivy29


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## AndrewFoo

Thanks all of you. I am facing the same problem. I am a Chinese, learning Spanish. The forum is helpful.


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