# these and those



## polyglotwannabe

Liebe Freunde, ich habe diesen Satz in einem Deutschkurs gefunden und Sie haben ihn als '  _*Those* _headphones are really expensive' übersetzt.

_*'Diese*_ Kopfhörer sind sehr teuer'.
Those headphones are really expensive.
If _'*Diese*'  _means _'*those*', how can I say 'These'?.
_
_Vieken Dank im Voraus._


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## Frieder

You can translate _those _as _jene_. But „Jene Kopfhörer sind sehr teuer” is not what any normal German speaker would say, because _jene _is a word strictly assigned to written language – and even there it is becoming extinct.

Alternatively we use _diese_, meaning _diese dort_ or _die da_ instead of _jene_ in spoken language. In order to distinguish between _these _and _those _you can say _diese ... hier_ and _die ... da_.

„Diese Kopfhörer hier sind sehr teuer.” (these here)
„Die Kopfhörer da (drüben) sind sehr teuer.” (those over there)


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## polyglotwannabe

Thanks so much, Frieder, for the very clear explanation. I have fully understood now.


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## L'irlandais

Extract





polyglotwannabe said:


> If _'*Diese*'  _means _'*those*', how can I say 'These'?._


Just for the record, _diese_ is *these* in English (As one might expect given the similarities between the two languages.)
Diese - Wörterbuch Deutsch-Englisch - WordReference.com
The difference in English is one of “distance” from the speaker: (as Frieder explained in German)


> *These* modifies or refers to plural nouns that are near to the speaker.
> *Those* modifies or refers to plural nouns that are far from the speaker.


Source: http://www.myenglishpages.com/site_php_files/grammar-lesson-demonstratives.php


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## polyglotwannabe

Dear L'irlandais, I know the difference in English, but I was looking to differentiate  them in german. I asked the question because I searched the forums and couldn't  find something really clear, not until Frieder wrote this to me:
 'Alternatively we use _diese_, meaning _diese dort_ or _die da_ instead of _jene_ in spoken language. *In order to distinguish between these and those you can say diese ... hier and die ... da.'*
_That cleared away my doubts. But, thanks so much for writing. I really  appreciate it.

_


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## berndf

Frieder said:


> In order to distinguish between _these _and _those _you can say _diese ... hier_ and _*die ... da*_.


That is ambiguous. In some regions _da_ means_ dort_ and in others _da_ means _hier_.


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## Frieder

If I'm pointing my index finger in the intended direction there'll be no ambiguity .


berndf said:


> In some regions _da_ means_ dort_ and in others _da_ means _hier_.


Let's just stick with standard language ...


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## berndf

Frieder said:


> Let's just stick with standard language ...


Yes, I do. If _da _means _dort _or _hier _is regional, across all registers. That makes it so confusing.

That is why people tend to avoid da in standard written language except in case where it doesn't matter like _da sein_.


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## JClaudeK

Frieder said:


> „Die Kopfhörer da (drüben) sind sehr teuer.”


With "drüben", it's not ambiguous.


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## polyglotwannabe

Die Kopfhörer _da (drüben)_ sind sehr teuer.”
Yes, I think it would be like saying in English : _'the ones over there', which, of course, also means 'those over there'._


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## L'irlandais

polyglotwannabe said:


> ...
> If _'*Diese*'  _means _'*those*', how can I say 'These'?._


Hi again,
I guessed you knew the difference in English.  I mentioned it for any German speaker that might be confused reading the original question.





			
				alternative question said:
			
		

> If _'*Diese*'  _means _'*these*', how can I say 'Those'?._


Diese means these, rather than those, as written in OP. See link in #04
Die da drüben sounds like a good option for those.


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## polyglotwannabe

Danke vielmals, l'irish.
Danke an euch alle  versteh' ich jetzt klar, wie man sie benutzt!.
Thanks. I will be in touch. You know that when you study something hard doubts will come up. I am lucky that you all have my back!.


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## Pouriya

Frieder said:


> Alternatively we use _diese_, meaning _diese dort_ or _die da_ instead of _jene_ in spoken language.


Hi, Are there any differences between *diese* ... dort and *die* ... dort ?


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## Frieder

Not really. As a rule of thumb you could say that *diese* is more formal (written) German while *die* is more colloquial (spoken) German. But these sets overlap.


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## berndf

I am surprised you should say that. For me there is a clear difference. Contrasting _diese dort _and _die dort_, _diese dort_ would be the ones closer to me.


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## JClaudeK

berndf said:


> For me there is a clear difference.


Not for me. I agree with Frieder's analysis.


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## Frieder

@berndf Really? I can't see those nuances in everyday language. Most people say "die da" using their index finger to point at the item in question. _Schriftdeutsch _will always be ambiguous in this respect.


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## berndf

Frieder said:


> Most people say "die da" using their index finger to point at the item in question.


I haven't denied that. _Die da_ can be close or can be far away. But _diese da_ can only be close.


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## Frieder

JClaudeK said:


> Not for me.


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## berndf

Would you seriously say "Diese da hinten"?

("Die da hinten" is fine.)


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## Frieder

I would neither say "diese da hinten" nor "jene dort hinten", because _diese _and _jene _are becoming extinct.


berndf said:


> ("Die da hinten" is fine.)



The question was


Pouriya said:


> Are there any differences between *diese* ... dort and *die* ... dort ?



My answer still holds:


Frieder said:


> As a rule of thumb you could say that *diese* is more formal (written) German while *die* is more colloquial (spoken) German.


I would like to add: ...and _*jene *_isn't used any more.

As I understand it, the concept of being »closer« or »more distant« to my location has nothing to do with the »diese vs. die« question in this context.


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## berndf

Frieder said:


> As I understand it, the concept of being »closer« or »more distant« to my location has nothing to do with the »diese vs. die« question in this context.


I think it has. _Diese _and _jene _have close and distant connotation, respectively. _Die_ has no such connotation.

For the original question, this means that _diese _should be translated _these_ and not _those_. *What *is irrelevant to the original question is whether _diese_ is becoming rare or not: The question was what it means and how it should be translated _if, when and where_ it occurs.


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## Demiurg

Frieder said:


> I would neither say "diese da hinten" nor "jene dort hinten", because _diese _and _jene _are becoming extinct.


Same here.  In my dialect, "diese" and "jene" don't even exist. There's only "die".


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## JClaudeK

Frieder said:


> As I understand it, the concept of being »closer« or »more distant« to my location has nothing to do with the »diese vs. die« question in this context.





berndf said:


> _Diese _and _jene _have close and distant connotation, respectively.


In spoken language, nobody uses "jene" any more.
"die" *=* diese" in spoken language. 


_die(se) *dort*_ would be the ones *most distant* from me (no matter if I use _die_ or _diese_).
And _die(se) *hier*_ would be the ones *closest* to me.

"hier" or "dort" make the difference, not _die_ or _diese _!

cf.:


> Generally, if 'hier', 'da' and 'dort' are used to designate place of varying distance, then - 'hier' refers to closest proximity - 'da' refers to a larger distance from the speaker - 'dort' indicates largest distance.


That's what I think, too.


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## berndf

JClaudeK said:


> _die(se) *dort*_ would be the ones *most distant* from me (no matter if you use _die_ or _diese_).


Interesting. For me using _diese _for a distant object is a contradiction in terms.

This is the definition of diese in DWDS:
_weist auf eine bereits bekannte oder noch zu kennzeichnende Größe hin, *die dem Sprecher räumlich oder in der Vorstellung nahe ist*; nachdrücklicher als der, die, _
(my highlighting)

This is precisely how I understand and use _diese_. It comes as an utter surprise to me that a native speaker could understand this differently. Maybe it is indeed because _diese_ is becoming rare and younger speakers lose this connotation and only regard _diese _as an old-fashioned version of _die_. I don't know.


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## Demiurg

berndf said:


> It comes as an utter surprise to me that a native speaker could understand this differently. Maybe it is indeed because _diese_ is becoming rare and younger speakers lose this connotation and only regard _diese _as an old-fashioned version of _die_. I don't know.


To me, "diese" is elevated style - just a fancy way to say "die". I see no difference in meaning.  I wouldn't use "diese" in spoken language and only as an anaphoric reference in written language.


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## berndf

Demiurg said:


> To me, "diese" is elevated style - just a fancy way to say "die". I see no difference in meaning.  I wouldn't use "diese" in spoken language and only as an anaphoric reference in written language.


Wow. I was born in 1959. Are you much younger then me?


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## Frieder

Demiurg said:


> To me, "diese" is elevated style - just a fancy way to say "die". I see no difference in meaning. I wouldn't use "diese" in spoken language and only as an anaphoric reference in written language.


I second that. And I'm two years older than berndf.


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## berndf

Is there maybe a regional difference? What do fellow northerners think? @Sowka ?


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## anahiseri

Ich glaube, ich verwende *diese* eher für abstrakte Begriffe:

In diesem Augenblick
Was sollen wir mit diesem Geld tun?
Diese Lösung ist am besten.
Für materielle Objekte in der Nähe des Sprechers:

*die* Gläser *hier* sind teurer als die anderen
Probier mal mit *dem* Schlüssel *hier*
Für materielle Objekte, die weiter entfernt sind (entspricht dem veralteten *jene)*:

*Die* Kinder *da* machen mich nervös.
Hast du *den* *da* gesehen?
*Die* T-shirts *dort* sind super.
(Jahrgang 1960, Nordrhein-Westfalen)


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## Demiurg

berndf said:


> Wow. I was born in 1959. Are you much younger then me?


I'm exactly one year younger than you.


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## Demiurg

anahiseri said:


> Ich glaube, ich verwende *diese* eher für abstrakte Begriffe:
> 
> In diesem Augenblick
> Was sollen wir mit diesem Geld tun?
> Diese Lösung ist am besten.


Das hatte ich in #26 mit "anaphorischer Referenz" gemeint.  Es bezieht sich auf etwas, was vorher im Text erwähnt wurde.

In gesprochener Sprache würde ich hier trotzdem "dem" bzw. "die" verwenden.


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## JClaudeK

anahiseri said:


> Ich glaube, ich verwende *diese* eher für abstrakte Begriffe:
> 
> Was sollen wir mit diesem Geld tun?


_Geld_ ist für mich kein _abstrakter Begriff_.


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## anahiseri

Na ja, wenn das nur ein paar Ziffern auf einem Papier oder am Bildschirm sind, kann man darüber streiten. . .


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## Frieder

berndf said:


> What do fellow northerners think?


We both wound up in different places, but I'm a northerner, too. 

I don't think that it's


berndf said:


> a regional difference


It's about how you're used to use your language. Maybe we can blame it on our parents. 
Or on the different books we used to read, or the different schools we attended, or ...

Anyway, we've come a long way from


polyglotwannabe said:


> If _'*Diese*' _means _'*those*', how can I say 'These'?._



Can we agree on: *Those*  is not _*diese*_. *Those* is _*jene*_, but nobody but schoolbook authors and classical philologists uses this word anymore. Under almost all conditions thinkable, in this context a German will say *die*, be it *die hier* (nearby) or _*die da*_ (remote). *Diese *is reserved for written language (and on the verge of disappearing, too).


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## berndf

_Dies ist ein günstige Gelegenheit._

Is this a sentence you wouldn't say?


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## Frieder

Yes, I wouldn't say that. Maybe I would write it in a text. It sounds quite formal.


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## berndf

Frieder said:


> Yes, I wouldn't say that. Maybe I would write it in a text. It sounds quite formal.


I see. So for you the semantic difference between _dies_ und _das_ is overshadowed by the register difference and not felt any more. Right?



Frieder said:


> It's about how you're used to use your language. Maybe we can blame it on our parents.


Could well be. My father was university professor and by mother is from a family of school teachers.


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## Frieder

berndf said:


> So for you the semantic difference between _dies_ und _das_ is overshadowed by the register difference and not felt any more. Right?


Couldn't have said it better myself .


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## Pouriya

berndf said:


> _Diese _and _jene _have close and distant connotation, respectively.


Well, this is what I found on Wiktionary



> Unlike English “this”, German _dieser_ is not necessarily restricted to what is close to the speaker. The pronoun is indeed _more likely_to be used referring to something close, but it is by no means uncommon to say, for example: _Siehst du diesen Turm da hinten am Horizont?_ Literally: “Do you see _this _tower back there at the horizon?”


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## berndf

Pouriya said:


> Well, this is what I found on Wiktionary


It is indeed not necessarily _physical_ closeness to the speaker. It could, e.g., also mean how close something is to the speaker's attention or focus. In actual fact this it not too far away from English _this/these_. See the definition in DWDS I quoted before:


berndf said:


> weist auf eine bereits bekannte oder noch zu kennzeichnende Größe hin, die dem Sprecher *räumlich oder in der Vorstellung nahe ist;* nachdrücklicher als der, die,


(Highlighting altered)


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## JClaudeK

> dieser
> Unlike English “this”, German _dieser_ is not necessarily restricted to what is close to the speaker. The pronoun is indeed _more likely _to be used referring to something close, but it is by no means uncommon to say, for example: _Siehst du diesen Turm da hinten am Horizont?_


 Thank you, _Pouriya._
That's exactly what I meant #24.


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