# How do you pronounce your S ?



## Ajura

Since my native language, Tagalog, does not have a /θ/ I do sometimes pronounce the s as /θ/ or laminal s or rarely an apical s.

Do you have this kind of ceceism?


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## Outsider

Some people do something like that in Portuguese (which also has no /θ/). We call it _ceceio_.

In some varieties of Galician, though, /θ/ does exist as a phoneme. Galician and Portuguese are closely related.

Generally, people use the term _ceceio_ for any unfamiliar pronunciation of sibilant phonemes. These may be idiosyncratic, or in other cases regionalisms.

P.S. Portuguese has the phonemes /s/, /z/, /ʃ/, and /ʒ/. This is already way too much from the point of view of a Spanish speaker, for example, but in the north of the country the former two split further into /s̪/, /z̪/, /s̺/, and /z̺/. Six sibilants!


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## Nanon

Yeθ, θome people have that kind of liθp in French too.
Le _zézaiement_. Ils _zézaient_. Ou ils _zozotent_.
It is more frequent in children.

It is often said that those people "have a hair on the tongue": "ils ont un cheveu sur la langue" - may be pronounced as "un θeveu θur la langue" - /ʃ/ may be affected as well. 
Voiced consonants /z/ and /ʒ/ may become [ð].


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## Ajura

Nanon said:


> Yeθ, θome people have that kind of liθp in French too.
> Le _zézaiement_. Ils _zézaient_. Ou ils _zozotent_.
> It is more frequent in children.
> 
> It is often said that those people "have a hair on the tongue": "ils ont un cheveu sur la langue" - may be pronounced as "un θeveu θur la langue" - /ʃ/ may be affected as well.
> Voiced consonants /z/ and /ʒ/ may become [ð].



I sometimes wonder if the Japanese do it too.
Like tsunami becomes t̪θunami.  I bet it does not get stigmatized like l and r swapping is not stigmatized.


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## Flaminius

Hello,

Japanese does not have [θ] even as an allophone for /s/ or any other phonemes.  It is understandable since Japanese does not have [f], for the articulation of which the teeth take part, either.  If someone does produce [θ] in Japanese, I would suspect of dysphemia.  Edit1: The trend is the opposite for Japanese speakers.  As [θ] is not used in Japanese, Japanese speakers tend to use [s] for English /θ/ (and [z] for /ð/).

For the speakers of languages where [θ] can be an allophone of /s/ or /ʃ/, what are the conditions for the replacement?  Also, does your language have /f/ in its phonological palette?

Edit2:
In fact, _tsunami_ is often pronounced with the devoicing of _u_, which is most common between voiceless obstruents:
[t͡sɯ̥nami]
The devoiced vowel may completely disappear from articulation ([t͡snami]).  When [s] is juxtaposed to [n], the pronunciation attains stability due to the closeness of the places of articulation, and it becomes even tougher to change [s].


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## Ajura

Flaminius said:


> Hello,
> 
> Japanese does not have [θ] even as an allophone for /s/ or any other phonemes.  It is understandable since Japanese does not have [f], for the articulation of which the teeth take part, either.  If someone does produce [θ] in Japanese, I would suspect of dysphemia.  Edit1: The trend is the opposite for Japanese speakers.  As [θ] is not used in Japanese, Japanese speakers tend to use [s] for English /θ/ (and [z] for /ð/).
> 
> For the speakers of languages where [θ] can be an allophone of /s/ or /ʃ/, what are the conditions for the replacement?  Also, does your language have /f/ in its phonological palette?
> 
> Edit2:
> In fact, _tsunami_ is often pronounced with the devoicing of _u_, which is most common between voiceless obstruents:
> [t͡sɯ̥nami]
> The devoiced vowel may completely disappear from articulation ([t͡snami]).  When [s] is juxtaposed to [n], the pronunciation attains stability due to the closeness of the places of articulation, and it becomes even tougher to change [s].


My language does not have θ or f but some people swap p's with f and ɸ and s with θ but it is stigmatized because lots of Filipinos are anglophones and pronounce th and f correctly how about the Japanese do they stigmatize Ceceism


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## Flaminius

So you are saying, *Ajura*, that [f], [ɸ] and [θ] exist in Tagalog as allophones used by some (perhaps non-native) speech communities, right?  Japanese does not have [f] and [θ] even at phonetic level.



> How about the Japanese? Do they stigmatize Ceceism?


Like I said in #5 _supra_, I don't think the Japanese replace [s] with [θ].  If you think we actually do, would you care to provide the source?  By the way, I have done a quick search but could not find the definition of Ceceism.  I'd better ask you directly.  What is it?    If it means [θ] in place of [s], it is non-existent.  Therefore, there is no stigmatising.  I referred to dysphemia because this seems so rare that I cannot think of a cultural group in Japan that has this practise.


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## Ajura

Flaminius said:


> So you are saying, *Ajura*, that [f], [ɸ] and [θ] exist in Tagalog as allophones used by some (perhaps non-native) speech communities, right? Japanese does not have [f] and [θ] even at phonetic level.
> 
> Like I said in #5 _supra_, I don't think the Japanese replace [s] with [θ]. If you think we actually do, would you care to provide the source? By the way, I have done a quick search but could not find the definition of Ceceism. I'd better ask you directly. What is it?  If it means [θ] in place of [s], it is non-existent. Therefore, there is no stigmatising. I referred to dysphemia because this seems so rare that I cannot think of a cultural group in Japan that has this practise.


 

Yes, I agree on that replacing s with θ is rare on Japanese and also in Tagalog too almost all people of all dialects of Tagalog use s instead of θ,when pronouncing s as θ i get stigmatized...

While ɸ and f instead of /p/ is quite popular among gays and transvestites...

I heard in a song that a Japanese singer swaps /t/ with θ or s before open low vowel such as teru becomes θeru or perhaps seru...

Ceceism, I created this term to use for the people who swap articulations.


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## Outsider

There already is an English word for that: a lisp.


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## timpeac

Outsider said:


> There already is an English word for that: a lisp.


Yes - and that makes me wonder what Japanese speakers who would lisp if they had been brought up English speaking do to avoid that in Japanese then?

Just to be clear - lisping in English is pronouncing /s/ as /θ/ because of some physical problems with getting the mouth and tongue position right for /s/, and while I wouldn't exactly call it common it is certainly heard a fair amount.


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## Flaminius

Hmmmm, there might be Japanese speakers with lisping but I don't think I have encountered with or heard about one.  True, producing [s] poses difficulty for some young children and those with speech disorder but the commonly known substitutes are; [t], [t͡ʃ] and [ʃ].  In fact, I have always found _lisp_ a word with such a strange limitation.  Why is [θ] a special substitute for [s] in English?



			
				Ajura said:
			
		

> I heard in a song that a japanese singer swaps /t/ with θ or s before open low vowel such as teru becomes θeru or perhaps seru...


Again, hmmmm.  It sounds logically possible as a contrast to palatalisation caused by /i/, which is a high frontal vowel (e.g., [s] ALWAYS becoming [ʃ] before /i/), but I wouldn't know it even if you could provide a recording.  People here usually have a hard time telling [θ] from [s] when they are not anticipating the pronunciation, so what few [θ] substitutions there are in Japanese may largely go unnoticed.

Realising sibilants (/s/, /z/) with pronunciations other than [s] and [z] is a stigmatised characteristic of dysphemic individuals as well as certain dialects.  For instance, the Wakayama dialect is known for pronouncing /z/ as [d].  Thus, _zōtē_ (presentment) turns into _dōtē_ (virginity).


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## Ajura

Flaminius said:


> Hmmmm, there might be Japanese speakers with lisping but I don't think I have encountered with or heard about one. True, producing [s] poses difficulty for some young children and those with speech disorder but the commonly known substitutes are; [t], [t͡ʃ] and [ʃ]. In fact, I have always found _lisp_ a word with such a strange limitation. Why is [θ] a special substitute for [s] in English?
> 
> 
> Again, hmmmm. It sounds logically possible as a contrast to palatalisation caused by /i/, which is a high frontal vowel (e.g., [s] ALWAYS becoming [ʃ] before /i/), but I wouldn't know it even if you could provide a recording. People here usually have a hard time telling [θ] from [s] when they are not anticipating the pronunciation, so what few [θ] substitutions there are in Japanese may largely go unnoticed.
> 
> Realising sibilants (/s/, /z/) with pronunciations other than [s] and [z] is a stigmatised characteristic of dysphemic individuals as well as certain dialects. For instance, the Wakayama dialect is known for pronouncing /z/ as [d]. Thus, _zōtē_ (presentment) turns into _dōtē_ (virginity).


 
_But dzōtē (dsouteh) is not as stigmatized as dōtē, in fact it's quite common...._

In Tagalog palatalization of d before i as dʒi is common in some areas in Luzon only less fricated they pronounce words like dipa as jipa...


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## Flaminius

But to be sure, _dōtē_ in place of _zōtē_ is rather embarrassing....    Please contrast _hanataba zōtē_ and _hanataba dōtē_.

At any rate, it must be noted after your transcription that the standard pronunciation for /z/ is [d͡z].  Japanese, however, is considered to be in possession of a phoneme /z/ since [d͡z] appears where [s], which is the phonetic value of /s/, is expected to be voiced.


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## Ajura

Flaminius said:


> But to be sure, _dōtē_ in place of _zōtē_ is rather embarrassing....  Please contrast _hanataba zōtē_ and _hanataba dōtē_.
> 
> At any rate, it must be noted after your transcription that the standard pronunciation for /z/ is [d͡z]. Japanese, however, is considered to be in possession of a phoneme /z/ since [d͡z] appears where [s], which is the phonetic value of /s/, is expected to be voiced.


 
No wonder why some write banzai as bandsai not as banzai,and sometimes /zi/ which is realized as ji(dʒi) turns to ci(tʃ) like Jikan(time,hour) becomes Nicikan(2 hours) in devoicing that is why some people prefer the ji of da(voiced equivalent of ta line) line rather than of za line to write words with dʒ sound.

Why is konnitwa > konnitta "as for today" is pronounced konitta instead of konitsa did old japanese /ts/ and /dz/ merge with /dz~z/ and ts as /tt/ at some contexts and retaining du as dzu in some dialects but in most /du/ merged with dz~z before u and tu as tsu,i think same thing but still different happened in castillian dz,ts turning to θ in dialects with distinction but in most dialects dz,ts,z,s>s~θ...


I am thinking if s can be pronounced as θ in languages without θ phoneme without bearing stigma.


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## Ajura

Correction:
Nijikan "2 hours" is usually pronounced as "nichikan/nich'kan" in Mitsukaido dialect only not in standard japanese.

I admit I was wrong in the analysis of the [ts] allophone of /t/ in Japanese,because some dialects actually use [tu] and [du] instead of [tsu] and [dzu].
http://home.hiroshima-u.ac.jp/ikonishi/narada/narada_tu&du.html


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## Flaminius

Ajura said:


> Why is konnitwa > konnitta "as for today" is pronounced konitta instead of konitsa


You must be talking about _konnichiwa_, which is a greeting phrase meaning "Hello."  Here /t͡ʃi/ is from /ti/ that was influenced by a tendency to shift the place of articulation for consonants towards the centre of the mouth.


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## Ajura

Flaminius said:


> You must be talking about _konnichiwa_, which is a greeting phrase meaning "Hello." Here /t͡ʃi/ is from /ti/ that was influenced by a tendency to shift the place of articulation for consonants towards the centre of the mouth.


No,i was talking about "konitta<konitwa" which is a word that means "today",a word were /t/ used to be labialized.


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## Black4blue

Turkish *S* is the same as English one and phonetic /s/.
Turkish doesn't have /θ/ either. Only the people who have a space between their teeth or who have pronounciation problems, might prononounce *S* as /θ/.


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## Orlin

Bulgarian has only s, no θ.


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## apmoy70

Greek has s (in some regiolects is lamino-alveolar [ɕ]) and θ.


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## English Speaker

Spanish doesn't have /θ/. We use the /s/ Sound, if you say any word with the consonant /s/ using the /θ/ the people around will laugh.. For example, you can't say "queθo" jajaja come on, the correct pronounciation is "queSo" (Cheese).

When I was a child, I used to pronounce /θ/ instead /s/.

Actually, I have a serious problem in English with /θ/ sound, I can't do it yet, I think I've got to practice.


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## merquiades

English Speaker said:


> Spanish doesn't have /θ/. We use the /s/ Sound, if you say any word with the consonant /s/ using the /θ/ the people around will laugh.. For example, you can't say "queθo" jajaja come on, the correct pronounciation is "queSo" (Cheese).
> 
> When I was a child, I used to pronounce /θ/ instead /s/.
> 
> Actually, I have a serious problem in English with /θ/ sound, I can't do it yet, I think I've got to practice.



English Speaker, this is not true of all dialects of Spanish.  In Spain people distinguish between /θ/ in calabaza /kalabaθa/ and /s/ in queso /keso/, which is never pronounced θ.

Anyway, back to Ajura's question, using /θ/ were it should be /s/ is called ceceo in Spanish.


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## English Speaker

merquiades said:


> English Speaker, this is not true of all dialects of Spanish. In Spain people distinguish between /θ/ in calabaza /kalabaθa/ and /s/ in queso /keso/, which is never pronounced θ.
> 
> Anyway, back to Ajura's question, using /θ/ were it should be /s/ is called ceceo in Spanish.


 
You're right my friend, I forgot that point.

Al menos en el Español mexicano no hay ese sonido.

Saludos.


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## Outsider

You are right of course, Merquiades, but the sound /θ/ is spelled _z/c_ in Spanish, and distinguished from /s/.


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