# όταν και όποτε



## Ancolie

Κάτι χωριάτες παραπονίουνται ( είμαστε το 1943 ) · "Αυτοί δεν έχουν οδηγό, δεν έχουν ζώα κάθε μέρα, τους έχουνε στραγγίξει πια με τις επιτάξεις. Κι όταν και όποτε τους τα επιστρέψουν, είναι πια σαράβαλα, του θανατά."

όταν και όποτε έχουν διαφορετική σημασία ; ή είναι ένας τρόπος για να επιμείνουν οι χωριάτες ;


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## Helleno File

I've not  seen the Greek phrase before but it seems like a common English expression: "_when and if_ they are returned, they are wrecks, at death's door". This therefore includes the possibility that they will never return.  Όποτε meaning whenever. 

Tony


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## Perseas

Ο σύνδεμος «όταν» έχει ορισμένες φορές χρονικοϋποθετική σημασία, δηλαδή λειτουργεί και ως χρονικός και ως υποθετικός. Άλλες φορές είναι μόνο χρονικός.


Ancolie said:


> όταν και όποτε έχουν διαφορετική σημασία ; ή είναι ένας τρόπος για να επιμείνουν οι χωριάτες ;


1. Αν ο σύνδεσμος είναι μόνο χρονικός, δεν έχουν τόσο διαφορετική σημασία. Στην περίπτωση αυτή:
Το «όταν» δηλώνει ότι κάποια στιγμή στο μέλλον θα τους επιστραφούν.
Το «όποτε» δηλώνει ότι ο ομιλητής δε θέλει να ορίσει πότε θα είναι η στιγμή αυτή. Μπορεί πχ. να είναι σε ένα, δύο, τρία κλπ. χρόνια.

2. Αν ο σύνδεσμος είναι χρονικοϋποθετικός, το «όταν» έχει και τη σημασία του «αν».



Helleno File said:


> _when and if_


_Όταν και αν_ or _αν και όταν_ are very common.


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## Ancolie

Yes, we have the same in French, but the problem is that neither όταν nor όποτε means if !


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## Ancolie

ευχαριστώ θερμά, Πέρσεα, "ου μόνον" για αυτή τη απάντηση αλλά και για όλες !


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## Perseas

Ancolie said:


> ευχαριστώ θερμά, Πέρσεα, "ου μόνον" για αυτή τη απάντηση αλλά και για όλες !


Παρακαλώ!


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## dmtrs

Ancolie said:


> Yes, we have the same in French, but the problem is that neither όταν nor όποτε means if !


"όταν" initially (in Ancient Greek) was a compound word (not perceived widely as such nowadays) meaning "when and if" (ότε + αν). The conditional (hypothetical) dimension is also present in "όποτε" (όπ- being an equivalent to -ever; όποτε = whenever). As you can see, both of the words imply "if".


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## bearded

dmtrs said:


> "όταν" in Ancient Greek was a compound word ... meaning "when and if" (ότε + αν)


If I remember correctly, in Ancient Greek that 'an' actually did not mean 'if', but ''possibly/_ eventuellement''._
Mod.Greek ''an''(=if) comes from ancient ei+an(if possibly) > eàn > an.


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## dmtrs

bearded said:


> If I remember correctly, in Ancient Greek that 'an' actually did not mean 'if', but ''possibly/_ eventuellement''._
> Mod.Greek ''an''(=if) comes from ancient ei+an(if possibly) > eàn > an.


Not quite so. 
In Ancient Greek 'if' can be:
-εἰ (when followed by a verb in indicative or optative mood)
-ἐάν / ἄν / ἤν (when followed by a verb in subjunctive mood).

'ἄν', on the other hand, is not only a conditional conjunction but it can also function as an indicator of potentiality, uncertainty etc. (δυνητικό, αοριστολογικό κλπ.).
[I'd like to be more specific but unfortunately I'm not that familiar with Grammar terminology in English, though I teach Grammar in Greek. 
For more info on 'ἄν' you can check out the following link: ἄν - Wiktionary .]


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## bearded

What I meant was: the <an> part in the compound word _otan _is the modal particle indicating potentiality..etc., not the 'an' meaning 'if' (contracted from ei an>ean>an). In your #7 you wrote _otan _coming from ote+an (when *and if*). That seems inaccurate to me.
Am I mistaken?


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## Perseas

bearded said:


> What I meant was: the <an> part in the compound word _otan _is the modal particle indicating potentiality..etc., not the 'an' meaning 'if'


 ἄν was initially potential (δυνητικό) particle and then conditional (υποθετικό).
The conjuction ὅταν was made up of ὅτε_+_'αοριστολογικό' ἄν (not sure about the term in English)_._ 



bearded said:


> (contracted from ei an>ean>an)


ἐάν was made up of εἰ+ἄν_. _


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## dmtrs

You are probably right to a certain extend. Typically, the 2nd part of the compound word is THAT 'an' you describe. But any form of 'an' carries the conditional (hypothetical) dimension of the conditional 'an'. (There is a conditional dimension in potentiality or uncertainty, don't you agree?)
Consider also the fact that dependent sentences (clauses) beginning with 'otan' are always χρονικοϋποθετικές (time+conditional sentences/clauses).
Therefore the stress should lie more to the meaning of 'an' in 'otan' than to its grammatical/linguistic definition (its being a conjunction or modal particle or whatever).
To my opinion language has to do with meaning, with content; the study of its structure (in word or sentence level / word building or syntax) can be useful for understanding many things but it is secondary to meaning as it is an abductive conclusion derived from usage (which has to do with meaning) and cannot be enforced as a rule over it.

(My comment refers to bearded's last comment. Perseas replied while I was typing.)


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## bearded

Dmtrs, thank you for illustrating your point so exhaustively. I agree that languages have more to do with meaning/content than with grammar/etymology definitions.



Perseas said:


> ἐάν was made up of εἰ+ἄν_._


Isn't that the same thing I said (initially ei+an = if possibly, then ei+an>ean - and finally the contraction from ean to the  conditional an=if), at least it's what I was taught many years ago. It also corresponds to indications in all dictionaries of Anc.Greek, which distinguish between the two 'an's.


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## Perseas

bearded, you're right. This is what I know too:
εἰ(=conditional conjunction)+ἄν(=potential particle) > ἐάν (by contraction) &
ἐάν> ἄν(by crasis)

Just to mention only that Babiniotis' dictionary doesn't refer to the crasis. I read: ἄν< εἰ ἄν< εἰ(conditional conjunction)+ ἄν(potential particle). Does he mean that *ἄν* parted as conditional conjunction from *εἰ ἄν* before the contraction took place?


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## bearded

Perseas said:


> Does he mean that *ἄν* parted as conditional conjunction from *εἰ ἄν* before the contraction took place?


I don't think so.  But I find it strange that he doesn't explicitly mention the important (long used) form 'eàn'.

I noticed that in Mod.Greek the word opote is stressed òpote, whereas in Anc.Greek it was opòte. Do you by chance know when the stress shift took place?  Thank you.


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## Perseas

bearded said:


> I noticed that in Mod.Greek the word opote is stressed òpote, whereas in Anc.Greek it was opòte. Do you by chance know when the stress shift took place?  Thank you.


I could only find this: μσν. _όποτε_ < αρχ. _ὁπότε.
_(μσν.=medieval)

Btw. in Mod. Gr. "οπότε" is used -and it is very common- but mainly with consecutive meaning.


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## bearded

Perseas, s'efcharisto kai pali.


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