# Na, Sie Primel!



## Biff Burger

I came across an expression in German, and can't find an adequate translation for it. The expression is "Na, Sie Primel! Sie leben ja noch!"

From what I've been able to figure out, a Primel is literally a primrose, and the flower is associated (in some regions) with regeneration/rebirth. The author of the expression was a Franconian German, and used the expression in 1947, following a nearly fatal accident which he survived.

Any ideas on how to translate this would be greatly appreciated!


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## Demiurg

There's an expression in German: "eingehen wie eine Primel" (_to die like a primrose_) maybe because primroses are very sensitive plants. So it's a kind of wonder if a primrose survives.


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## Frieder

If someone would call me a _Primel_, I'd be more than a bit offended. So I take it that the speaker doesn't think too much of the addressee: It sounds very condescending.


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## manfy

Frieder said:


> If someone would call me a _Primel_, I'd be more than a bit offended. So I take it that the speaker doesn't think too much of the addressee: It sounds very condescending.


 
  I see it the same way, even without having a clear idea how to interpret "Primel". The formal "Sie" doesn't make it sound any better, it makes it even more condescending.
It's close to "Hey, du Stengel". I've heard that in Bavaria -- again, I have no clear idea how to interpret it but I'm sure it's not friendly! ("Stengel" is normally the stem of a flower)


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## erroranalysis

_Na, Sie Primel!
_
Possible translation: _So, you big baby! (Let's talk like real men this time.)_

The sentence in brackets is just an attempt to add context so that the previous sentence can be understood better. 

Just an idea. It's not precisely it. Actually I'd find it better to be called a _Primel_ than _a big baby_. Does anybody know a better translation?


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## Kajjo

1. The title phrase is very unusual and not idiomatic at all. It is an absolutely new phrase to me. Using "Primel" as derogative in this way I have never heard before.

2. It appears to me to be a newly invented form of very mild, possibly somewhat joking offensive address. Probably, the speaker was mildly pissed off in a still friendly-enough way. However, I agree it sounds condescending.

3. The word "Primel" is more or less exchangeably and has no special meaning or power. The relatedness to "Eingehen wie eine Primel" would suggest that the speaker might consider this plant to be weak.


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## Biff Burger

Thank you for all the responses! The utterance in question was made immediately after the author recovered from a state of unconsciousness following an accident.


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## elroy

Demiurg said:


> There's an expression in German: "eingehen wie eine Primel" (_to die like a primrose_) maybe because primroses are very sensitive plants. So it's a kind of wonder if a primrose survives.


 This seems to be the most plausible explanation in this context.  As in, you weren't expected to survive, but you did.  Would that fit?


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## Biff Burger

I think it makes sense. Thanks!


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## manfy

elroy said:


> This seems to be the most plausible explanation in this context.  As in, you weren't expected to survive, but you did.  Would that fit?


 
Naah, sorry. However I twist and turn it, it doesn't fit to my language logic.
Finally I bothered to look it up: Primel = Schlüsselblume = Himmelsschlüssel (that might be a southern term).
Those flowers are some of the first to show up after Winter; they signify the beginning of spring, i.e. figuratively, a new beginning and hope after a lengthy period of harsh conditions. So, maybe the author was thinking along those lines.

But it's definitely not a common and general saying. In Ngram-viewer I couldn't find a single occurrence of the figurative use of "Primel" around 1947. It was only used in botanical context.


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## perpend

In the meantime, I'm starting to get mad at the person who said it, , since it would be really insensitive to say something derogatory, when a person was just unconscious. Does everyone think it's still meant as a sort of insult?

Do the surrounding sentences/context reveal that the two of them were at odds, Biff?


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## Demiurg

It sounds rude but it may be a sign of surprise and appreciation. For instance when an officer talks to one of his soldiers.  It depends on the relationship between the two men.


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## elroy

Could it be a sort of mock berating, as in "You little rascal!"?  In the sense of "You managed to survive despite all odds, you little rascal!"?


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## berndf

Kajjo said:


> It appears to me to be a newly invented form of very mild, possibly somewhat joking offensive address. Probably, the speaker was mildly pissed off in a still friendly-enough way. However, I agree it sounds condescending.


It is not new at all. I have known this expression since my adolescence. You call someone a "Primel" who is annoyingly touchy or sensitive, especially if he brags with it.


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## Kajjo

@berndf: I know only "Mimose" for it.


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## berndf

Kajjo said:


> @berndf: I know only "Mimose" for it.


Yes, similar meaning. For me, _Mimose_ much is stronger and has an implication of hypocrisy which I don't sense with _Primel_.

PS: I would be interested, if anybody can relate to my description.


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## Hutschi

Hi, I see the logic with "eingehen wie eine Primel", and might be it was supposed, (supported by "sie leben ja noch.")
Primel is "empfindlicher Mensch" this way.

I never heard this metaphor before, so I had assicitations to "Nieselprim". (Maybe used in a wrong way.
http://de.bab.la/woerterbuch/deutsch-englisch/nieselpriem misery guts

But "Primel" produces not the same degorative feeling as "Nieselprim".

Because of studying dictionaries, I agree that it is more like "empfindlicher Mensch" - not at the same level as "Mimose", however.

At the very first moment, I had none of these associations, but more,

"Hey guy, long time no see."
And I think, I stay with this.
It just means "Hallo, lange nicht gesehen!"./"Na, Sie, lange nicht gesehen!"


elroy said:


> Could it be a sort of mock berating, as in "You little rascal!"?  In the sense of "You managed to survive despite all odds, you little rascal!"?


I agree.
"You little rascall, long time no see."

I would not see it degorative in any way if there is no extra context. It indicates some fun in the relations, and gives a hint to coll. informal language, even with "Sie".

---


> following a nearly fatal accident which he survived.


 The speaker survived, so it has no influence to the other he met.

---
PS: Nieselpriem = mürrischer Mensch. So I think "Priem" is just (dated or regional) Mensch here.

Do not overestimate "Sie leben ja noch!" - it is an idiom, a dead metaphor.


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## Kajjo

berndf said:


> Yes, similar meaning. For me, _Mimose_ much is stronger and has an implication of hypocrisy which I don't sense with _Primel_.
> 
> PS: I would be interested, if anybody can relate to my description.


Again, I have never heard someone use "Primel" to address a person. Unknown usage for me.

_Mimose _carries the connotation "overly sensitive" (auf Deutsch: _überempfindlich_). It's a negative attribute of someone who reacts inadequate to a psychological stimulus. I usually do not associate "hyprocrisy" with it, but more a mental weakness or lability. However, I agree that "Mimose" could be used in situations in which we believe the other just plays the role.


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## Frieder

Just googled "Du Primel" and indeed there are some rare appearances in literature. In all cases _du Primel_ is a mildly derogative term.
I have to admit I never heard _du/Sie Primel_ anywhere in Germany - and I lived in quite a lot of different regions, excluding only the eastern provinces.


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## Hutschi

Context was  expression in 1947.
I think it does not exist in general usage anymore.

Grimm does not know it in the given meaning. http://woerterbuchnetz.de/DWB/?sigle=DWB&mode=Vernetzung&lemid=GP07635#XGP07635


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## berndf

Frieder said:


> Just googled "Du Primel" and indeed there are some rare appearances in literature. In all cases _du Primel_ is a mildly derogative term.
> I have to admit I never heard _du/Sie Primel_ anywhere in Germany - and I lived in quite a lot of different regions, excluding only the eastern provinces.


I don't think I have ever *heard* it either. Only *read*.


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## elroy

So what would be a good translation in this context?


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## perpend

Interesting stuff.  The consensus is clear on the derogatory side, I just guess it come down to where on the spectrum of being offense.

With the added input, I could imagine all of these.
-- Well, well, you (poor little) fragile thing! You are still alive! (Maybe good for 1947.)
-- Hey, you big sissy! "" (Probably too offensive and wouldn't work back then.)
-- Well, well, my prima donna! "" (Might also work for that era. Oddly enough starts with "prim" like "Prim-el". )


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## manfy

I can't quite make up my mind.
With this sentence in isolation, I'd probably go with a pejorative term or maybe even a derogatory one. But within this context, it does sound a bit strange.

I'd probably skim through the surrounding context to get a feel for the tone between these 2 people. And if still undecided, I'd probably use something neutral or something that allows multiple interpretations like elroy's "You little rascal!".


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## Biff Burger

Thanks again for all the feedback. I should add some amplifying notes to the original context: The speaker is a WWII era military doctor, who is addressing a sailor that had just attempted suicide and survived. This confirms the slightly pejorative sense of the term. I've also spoken with someone who has access to a person that would have lived through the era. I was told that the term denotes an unstable individual, someone who is not firm or steadfast.

Thank you again for all the help!


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## Biff Burger

perpend said:


> Interesting stuff.  The consensus is clear on the derogatory side, I just guess it come down to where on the spectrum of being offense.
> 
> With the added input, I could imagine all of these.
> -- Well, well, you (poor little) fragile thing! You are still alive! (Maybe good for 1947.)
> -- Hey, you big sissy! "" (Probably too offensive and wouldn't work back then.)
> -- Well, well, my prima donna! "" (Might also work for that era. Oddly enough starts with "prim" like "Prim-el". )



I think the "prima donna" idea works nicely.


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