# a handsome woman?



## Moon Palace

Hello everybody, 
I had always been told that the adjective 'handsome' is for men, and that women are supposed to be 'pretty'. 
Is there any added meaning if you say 'a handsome woman'? Which is what I have just found in an academic text about a novel by Jane Austen. Thanks for your help.


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## The Scrivener

Moon Palace said:


> Hello everybody,
> I had always been told that the adjective 'handsome' is for men, and that women are supposed to be 'pretty'.
> Is there any added meaning if you say 'a handsome woman'? Which is what I have just found in an academic text about a novel by Jane Austen. Thanks for your help.


 

Hello Moon Palace,

In the era of Jane Austen, "handsome" was an adjective frequently applied to women.  I don't know precisely when it fell out of use but it was used for a long time.  One doesn't normally hear it nowadays.


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## rusalka_bg

I found in Oxford dictionary that you can use handsome to describe both women and men, meaning good-looking, attractive, personable, elegant, fine, well-formed, well-proportioned

I suppose it is the same as in my language - we usually say a pretty woman and a handsome man, but it is more likely to hear a handsome woman than a pretty man. 

We say pretty about a face, and handsome about a well-built body, so a pretty girl doesn't necessarily mean she's handsome and vice verca. But in man, you don't look his face as much as his body.

Maybe that's it


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## LV4-26

Hello, Moon Palace
The adjective _handsome_ can indeed be used for a woman.
A woman can be pretty, beautiful or handsome, each word having a different meaning.
_Handsome_ is more related to harmony of proportions, dignity, gracefulness, elegance.

Wait for more answers.


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## Trisia

Hello, Moon Palace

Yes, I know, I've always used:

a beautiful woman - a handsome man
a pretty girl - a cute boy

I think a handsome woman is one whose features are symmetrical .

I was also surprised by Jane Austen's use of this adjective. In fact, from what I recall, she seems to use mostly these: plain (ugly), pretty (nice) and handsome (beautiful).


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## billdoor

A handsome woman is strikingly good-looking while a pretty woman's look is more conventional.
A handsome man is only good-looking.


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## The Scrivener

I've checked on google and found that it is still in use. There is a general opinion that handsome women age far better than pretty women.

Yours handsomely,
Scriv.


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## Moon Palace

Thank you all for your answers , I now grasp the nuance. But for the record, the phrase is not by Jane Austen here, I picked it in a critic's comment, and he does not quote her. So that it is a contemporary use, which is what made me wonder. And he in fact describes one of the Bennets' daughters, so that beautiful may be a hyperbole, while handsome then adds the subtlety you defined well.


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## The Scrivener

Moon Palace said:


> Thank you all for your answers , I now grasp the nuance. But for the record, the phrase is not by Jane Austen here, I picked it in a critic's comment, and he does not quote her. So that it is a contemporary use, which is what made me wonder. And he in fact describes one of the Bennets' daughters, so that beautiful may be a hyperbole, while handsome then adds the subtlety you defined well.


 

It was used by Jane Austen in Pride and Prejudice.  Mr Bingley describes Elizabeth Bennet as "a handsome woman".


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## Moon Palace

yes, but what I meant is that the critic uses it in another instance of his own making. Which gives it a different perspective if you see what I mean. Sorry for not being clear enough.


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## AngelEyes

I don't think one of my friends would be complimented if I told them they were a handsome-looking woman!

This is strictly AE speaking here.

It's probably different by country, but here in America, you tell a female she's handsome, and most likely she'll think she needs a new hairdresser, she needs to buy a new line of make-up, and she needs to make an appointment immediately at the spa with an electrologist! 

I'd rather some guy thought I was just average-looking than handsome. 


*AngelEyes*


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## JamesM

To me, a handsome woman has strong but beautiful features.  Glenn Close is a handsome woman, in my opinion.  I think it's more common to talk about a woman as handsome than to call her handsome while speaking to her.


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## Musical Chairs

This is something "correct" to say that people don't actually say (at least not in the US). It would be weird for a woman to hear herself being called "handsome", and if I called a woman handsome, my friends would probably think that I mean that she looks good in a mannish way (not exactly a good thing). "Handsome" is more for men but I would say that other adjectives are more common, especially among the younger generation.

Edit: Women aren't "supposed" to be "pretty" (i.e. that's not the only word you can use to describe a good-looking woman). These mean slightly different things:

- pretty: attractive
- beautiful: breathtakingly attractive
- gorgeous: somewhere in between "pretty" and "beautiful", usually used for older women (not for little girls)
- cute: the person has endearing qualities but this can be used more to describe personality than the other ones
- hot: I think of this as more "sexually arousing" attractive

There are more but I'd say those are the most popular ones.


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## Moon Palace

Musical Chairs said:


> Edit: Women aren't "supposed" to be "pretty" (i.e. that's not the only word you can use to describe a good-looking woman). These mean slightly different things:
> 
> - pretty: attractive
> - beautiful: breathtakingly attractive
> - gorgeous: somewhere in between "pretty" and "beautiful", usually used for older women (not for little girls)
> - cute: the person has endearing qualities but this can be used more to describe personality than the other ones
> - hot: I think of this as more "sexually arousing" attractive



Thanks Musical Chairs for this wonderful inventory of the genuine characteristics of women (this is to answer JamesBrandon )


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## James Brandon

I can see everybody is being terribly sensitive and polite here, since 'ugly' does not feature on the list. Or, if one wants to be tactful: 'She's not particularly attractive', or: 'I wouldn't say she's ugly, but...' And the old-time classic: 'Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.' Yeah, right.


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## liliput

I think saying a woman is _handsome_ suggests that she is attractive but but she has more of a masculine beauty. You can call a man _pretty_, but only if he looks a bit like a girl. On the other hand _beautiful_ can be applied to men and women.


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## AngelEyes

JamesM said:


> To me, a handsome woman has strong but beautiful features. Glenn Close is a handsome woman, in my opinion.


 
In my mind, there are two kinds of handsome women. Here's one:

HERE

She's deserving of respect and honor, and if asked to physically describe her, those who had liked her would probably have called her a handsome woman.

I honestly don't know any woman who would _choose _to be called _handsome_ by a man.

This excludes lesbians, which is where you'll find the more attractive handsome women. Here is one who I think is handsome, as well as cute. (Jackie Warner from Workout):

HERE

*JamesM: I guess Glenn Close would fall somewhere in the middle of these two. This word is obviously a matter of personal opinion. *



*AngelEyes*


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## Teafrog

My votes:


LV4-26 said:


> _Handsome_ is more related to harmony of proportions, dignity, gracefulness, elegance.






billdoor said:


> A handsome woman is strikingly good-looking while a pretty woman's look is more conventional.






etabetapi said:


> a _beautiful_ woman is...well...beautiful.
> a _handsome_ woman on the other hand is (an older) woman of a certain age that carries herself well, & is well-groomed & confident.






liliput said:


> I think saying a woman is _handsome_ suggests that she is attractive but but she has more of a masculine beauty. You can call a man _pretty_, but only if he looks a bit like a girl. On the other hand _beautiful_ can be applied to men and women.


  However, I would say "a beautiful person" relating to their inner spirit. I wouldn't call a man "beautiful" (but that's just me). IMO  "Beau" in French is "handsome", "belle" is pretty or attractive.

I would refer to a woman as being handsome, rather than saying it to her. This would definitely be a compliment, unless of course it was meant as an obvious , catty put-down. To me, a handsome woman has poise, elegance, grace, pleasant proportions, attractive without being very girlish, er…


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## se16teddy

There are several other threads that touch on this subject. 
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=471143&highlight=beautiful+man
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=151924&highlight=beautiful+man&page=2
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=429486&highlight=beautiful+man
As a matter of taste, I'm much happier wasting time looking at a handsome woman than a pretty one!


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## Tagarela

Hi,

I ran into another example of "handsome woman" in A tale of two cities by Charles Dickens: "(...)_if she had been he vainest and handosmest of women._" [Part II, Chapter VI] 

So, as some of you have said, I should take it as "elegant", "in good shape", is that right? 

Thank you

Good bye.:


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## ewie

As the rest of the thread demonstrates, Taga, the use of _handsome_ for women is a *very* subjective thing. About the only thing we can say for sure is that it's a _compliment_


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## AngelEyes

> So, as some of you have said, I should take it as "elegant", "in good shape", is that right?


 
I would strongly recommend that you not call any woman handsome to her face, behind her back, in your diary, or just a thought passing through your brain if you plan on making a good impression and getting a second date with her.

Modern-day women would not appreciate it. Maybe a handsome woman might be considered fit and be a woman who carries herself with a certain strength in her gait, but there are so many other words that add a feminine touch, why would you want to use _handsome_ at all? 

I'd strongly suggest putting it at the bottom of your list of words. 

If she's elegant, you might tell her she has a wonderful style. Though elegant works the best, so just say that.

If she's in good shape and she's straight, don't tell her she's handsome to describe that. Just tell her she looks great.

This is such a no-brainer. *Handsome* is a word for guys.



> About the only thing we can say for sure is that it's a _compliment_


 
Don't ever tell me I'm handsome, ewester. 

*AngelEyes*

Edit_: _
_I shan't waste another post to type this drivel: actually, Ewie, I like your second choice.(Printed below.) But you can get your own newspaper & slippers..._


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## ewie

AngelEyes said:


> Don't ever tell me I'm handsome, ewester.


Okay, bulldogface.


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## Thomas Tompion

The use of the word has clearly changed greatly in the past 240 years.  It couldn't now be used as Jane Austen uses it in Chapter 6 of P & P: Of this she was perfectly unaware; -- to her he was only the man who made himself agreeable no where, and who had not thought her handsome enough to dance with.


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## JamesM

AngelEyes said:


> I would strongly recommend that you not call any woman handsome to her face, behind her back, in your diary, or just a thought passing through your brain if you plan on making a good impression and getting a second date with her.


 
There are other reasons to describe someone besides wanting a second date. 

The question was:



> I had always been told that the adjective 'handsome' is for men, and that women are supposed to be 'pretty'.
> Is there any added meaning if you say 'a handsome woman'? Which is what I have just found in an academic text about a novel by Jane Austen. Thanks for your help.


 
The word is still in use by some people to describe a certain kind of beauty in women. 

From the BBC Press Officewebsite , Oct. 2, 2007 describing a role played by Kelly Reilly (who is no horse-face  ):

After memorable performances in Mrs Henderson Presents, Pride And Prejudice, The Libertine, Puffball and Last Orders, Kelly now portrays an elegantly handsome woman who is well to do but nevertheless unhappy with her lot in life. She is trying to fill the void in her existence by carrying on an ardent affair with a dashing, high-flying politician called Richard. 

From a 2008 book excerpt in the New York Times of "Breath", by Tim Winton:

The mother looks at me properly for the first time. She's a handsome woman in her forties with short, dark hair and arty pendant earrings, and I can imagine that an hour ago, when her lipstick and her life were still intact, she'd have been erect and confident, even a little haughty. 


The word is used. It may engender the kind of vehement response that Angeleyes posted if used directly, just as calling a man "pretty" to his face might, but it is a perfectly serviceable word for describing women.


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## Franzi

JamesM said:


> The word is still in use by some people to describe a certain kind of beauty in women.


 
Agreed.  I see it used for older women all the time, especially sophisticated, elegant older women.  I wouldn't find it insulting at all.  However, if you use 'handsome' in a context where a woman was expecting you to call her "pretty" or "cute" or "sexy" instead, I could see it being fairly insulting.


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## AngelEyes

I have to respectfully disagree with those who think it's okay to use this word when referring to a woman.

Why use it at all if there's such a large degree of differing opinions on it? 

As Thomas Tompion stated, the use and meaning of the word has vastly changed in modern day meaning.

I would encourage anyone who is tempted to use it as a compliment to forget it. There are other, better words to choose.

The opportunity for misunderstanding, insult, and bad impressions is very high if you do use it.

*AngelEyes*


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## George French

EN-UK usage, a handsome woman should have some qualities that make her stand out in someway. She is attractive etc. but there is that extra bit of class there.

I would happily use it on a Brit but according to this thread there are no longer handsome US women. What about it then you Ozzies and the rest of the old Empire; what do you think?

GF..


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## Franzi

George French said:


> I would happily use it on a Brit but according to this thread there are no longer handsome US women.


 
Not at all.  According to this thread, AE speakers strongly disagree about whether the term is acceptable.


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## Franzi

AngelEyes said:


> Why use it at all if there's such a large degree of differing opinions on it?


 
I would use it because it indicates a very specific type of beauty that isn't conveyed as accurately and concisely by other words.  The usage of all words varies over time and space and between speakers.  I would expect to find a large range of opinions on many words.


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## AngelEyes

Because when you use a word to give a compliment to someone, it's just as important - if not more so - how *they* view that word than how *you* do, I decided to ask my Mom - an older woman.

"Mom, let me ask you something. If I told you that I thought you were a handsome woman, would you take it as a compliment?"

Answer:
"No!"

I asked her how it would make her feel to think I thought that about her. She said she'd think she was viewed as a stout, muscular woman who needed a shave.

Maybe it's just me. Or her.

So ask a woman you know. And please let me know.

*AngelEyes*


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## JamesM

AngelEyes said:


> I have to respectfully disagree with those who think it's okay to use this word when referring to a woman.
> 
> Why use it at all if there's such a large degree of differing opinions on it?


 
With all due respect, AngelEyes, you are the only one who is having a strong negative reaction to the word.



> As Thomas Tompion stated, the use and meaning of the word has vastly changed in modern day meaning.


 
Nevertheless, the word is still in use to describe women and it is a complimentary word.



> I would encourage anyone who is tempted to use it as a compliment to forget it. There are other, better words to choose.
> 
> 
> The opportunity for misunderstanding, insult, and bad impressions is very high if you do use it.
> 
> *AngelEyes*


 
It is a word used to describe a woman in a complimentary fashion, not necessarily a word used directly to a woman as a compliment.   I have no doubt that the opportunity for misunderstanding and insult is very high if we use it to describe AngelEyes_, _ but that is not universally true.

Here is a comment posted in the last 24 hours by a woman (ostensibly) in response to a remark about Michelle Obama:

_She's very tall, and generously proportioned. Her features suit her build. A delicate face would look wrong on her. I would say she is a "handsome" woman, and I mean that as a compliment to her._ 

I have no problem with providing a caution about its use, but I do object to characterizing it universally as a word not to be used because of a high probability of untoward results when using it.


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## silverdaizy

I just have to say that I agree with Angel Eyes and I would NEVER use handsome for a women...  and I think most of the "younger generation" would agree... especially from North America..

Am I wrong?


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## AngelEyes

> _With all due respect, AngelEyes, you are the only one who is having a strong negative reaction to the word._


 
I highly doubt that's why I'm standing here all alone.  




> _Nevertheless, the word is still in use to describe women and it is a complimentary word._


 
Go ask your wife, James, if she feels all cuddly and romantic after you tell her she's a handsome woman. I think telling her she's pretty and funny would get you more...




> _It is a word used to describe a woman in a complimentary fashion, not necessarily a word used directly to a woman as a compliment. I have no doubt that the opportunity for misunderstanding and insult is very high if we use it to describe AngelEyes,  but that is not universally true._


 
Uh, yes. Call me _ugly_, but don't call me _handsome_. 




> _Here is a __comment __posted in the last 24 hours by a woman (ostensibly) in response to a remark about Michelle Obama:_


 
I went and read that and a person already was warning everybody that word could be taken the wrong way, which is exactly the point I'm trying to make. Why chance it?




> _(Michelle Obama) She's very tall, and generously proportioned. Her features suit her build. A delicate face would look wrong on her. I would say she is a "handsome" woman, and I mean that as a compliment to her. _


 
I have to decline to make any comment about this woman. It wouldn't be a dispassionate reponse.

But, okay. I accept the fact I'm the lone voice on this one. It's just a humble opinion. 


*AngelEyes*


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## Franzi

AngelEyes said:


> I asked her how it would make her feel to think I thought that about her. She said she'd think she was viewed as a stout, muscular woman who needed a shave.
> 
> Maybe it's just me. Or her.
> 
> So ask a woman you know. And please let me know.


 
Considering I _am _a woman (as it says in my profile), that's a little inflammatory, AngelEyes.

The word that I personally would use for a "stout, muscular woman who need[s] a shave" is 'mannish'.  I'm not saying that no one reacts to 'handsome' this way, but that's not the meaning of 'handsome' I am familiar with.  To me, the word clearly indicates someone like Katherine Hepburn.

I agree that you don't use it to someone's face as a direct compliment, but it's quite common in talking _about _someone in a favorable way.  Here's a fairly typical usage (from an article about Hepburn):

"Her physical presence was distinctive, her often-imitated voice filled with the vowels of a well-bred New Englander, and her sharp-planed face defined by remarkably high cheekbones. In her youth she did not have classical leading-lady looks, but a handsome beauty."
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9401EED8143AF933A05755C0A9659C8B63


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## Topsie

AngelEyes said:


> ...I asked her how it would make her feel to think I thought that about her. She said she'd think she was viewed as a stout, muscular woman who needed a shave. ...


 My sentiments (almost) entirely! 
For me a _handsome woman_ is definitely post menopausal, carefully groomed (so not in need of a shave!), stout (for some reason _handsome _implies _stout_ - if not muscular) and people who knew her when she was young would probably remark on how beautiful she _was_!
So if not completely negative, then not really a compliment either!


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## Nunty

I think there is a difference you might be missing, AngelEyes. People are *not* talking about telling a woman she is handsome, but as describing a woman as such. I find it a very elegant way to say that a woman is not a stereotypical "pretty girl", but that she has a strong, elegant kind of beauty.

Katherine Hepurn would have been described as "handsome"; Audrey Hepburn, as "pretty".


EDIT: I left out the "not".


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## JamesM

> Go ask your wife, James, if she feels all cuddly and romantic after you tell her she's a handsome woman. I think telling her she's pretty and funny would get you more...


 
I don't know why you insist on continuing down this path.  It has been stated by most, if not all, of the "pro-handsome woman" crowd, including me, that the word is used to describe a woman, not used as a direct compliment.  You are arguing against a position no one has taken.

If I write "he was a slim man with delicate features" it is a valid, complimentary description.  It is not something I would use in a direct compliment to any man, nor would I expect a woman to say it as a compliment to a man.  They are two _completely_ different things.

Can the word "handsome" be used to describe a woman?  Yes.  Is it in use still today? Yes (see examples above.)  Could it be misconstrued when said directly to a woman, intending it as a compliment? Absolutely.  That does not bar its use as a descriptive word with positive overtones.


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## AngelEyes

Nope. I've thought about this again and tried to remain detached while I came to my conclusion, and I still feel the same, regardless whether I'm describing someone or saying what I think to her face.

Or describing a type of woman. If I did use this word about a type of woman, I'd either use it to demean her or to describe her as not feminine-looking. And the point that it would be different if it's used to describe someone as opposed to saying it to someone's face really contains no difference, in my mind. If you say it about someone, you're still dealing with the possibility that it's going to be taken in a negative light, so why take that chance? That's all I'm saying.

Katherine Hepburn was a proud, regal, striking woman. She was beautiful when she was younger; stunningly imposing and a dramatic beauty when she grew older.

Golda Meir was a handsome woman. 

This is just my opinion. None of us are wrong.

*AngelEyes*


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## dNZ

The word "Handsome" can also be used in the case instead of the word "Fitting" or "Suited" but these days it rarely is.


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## JamesM

Personally, I would not call Golda Meir a handsome woman.  As someone said earlier, I would use "mannish" for such a woman.  

From www.m-w.com entry for mannish:

1 *:* resembling or suggesting a man rather than a woman 
2 *:* generally associated with or characteristic of a man rather than a woman <her _mannish_ clothes> 

From www.m-w.com's entry for handsome:

5*:* having a pleasing and usually impressive or dignified appearance

(I would not call Golda Meir's appearance "pleasing", no matter how much I respect the woman's accomplishments.)


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## Franzi

AngelEyes said:


> If you say it about someone, you're still dealing with the possibility that it's going to be taken in a negative light, so why take that chance? That's all I'm saying.


 
And what I'm saying is that we shouldn't mislead non-native speakers into thinking that this word isn't used commonly in contexts like the one I quoted before.

Due to individual dialect variation/background/reading tastes/whatever, there is always a chance that your audience will take something in a negative light when you meant it to be positive. That by itself isn't a good argument for avoiding using a word in the way it's normally used.

I will say again: The word 'handsome' is used quite frequently in newspapers and other writing of that sort to describe Katherine Hepburn in particular and elegant, striking, regal-looking women in general.

Yes, there is an element of personal opinion here (whether we'd find it insulting if applied to us), but I really don't think your take on this word reflects how it's most typically used, at least in news media and literature.

*Edited to add:* Actually, the definitions on Urban Dictionary are fairly illuminating. (Look not only at what the definitions say but also the tone they're written in, how many votes they have--both positive and negative--and what women they give as examples.)
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Handsome%20Woman


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## Tagarela

Hi,

As a non-native speaker, I was learned in English courses that handsome was only for men and for women we should say pretty or beautiful, that is why that passage of Dickens was so remarkable to me. 

Well, by what I have read here in the thread, it seems that the usage of handsome for women is possible, but I do not believe that it is very common, since there is some controversy on it, and it still unknown for many non-native, even for those who have a real good knowledge of English. 
I agree with those that in general it is a positive word, but I also agree that, if you are not very confident about it, you should use another word in order to avoid a misunderstanding. 

I was also wondering if in Britain it is more often used than in USA. 

Good bye.:


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## Franzi

Tagarela said:


> As a non-native speaker, I was learned in English courses that handsome was only for men and for women we should say pretty or beautiful, that is why that passage of Dickens was so remarkable to me.


 
Whether or not 'handsome' is common now, it was very common in the past.  Dickens isn't exactly recent.


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## Tagarela

Hi,



Franzi said:


> Whether or not 'handsome' is common now, it was very common in the past.  Dickens isn't exactly recent.



Franzi, o, for sure, you are right. But I meant that if it was more common today, I guess that non-native would be more aware of it, and natives would not have quarrels about =) 

Good bye.:


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## Moon Palace

Waow... I wouldn't have imagined my question would raise such a passionate debate. I must admit I am impressed.
What I retain from all that has been said is that first, it ought not be used in a direct address to a woman, then that although it is used in BE as a compliment on the beauty of a woman, conveying the idea that a woman has class, it is not the case in AE. But I would now be grateful if you could stop arguing about it, I believe the case is clear enough. Yet it reminds me of so many arguments between French people on the different stances on a word, that I wouldn't like to sound like one giving lessons as I myself can feel very strongly too on a given word or phrase. 
Anyway, thanks to all of you for very precious inputs. I really appreciate.


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## JamesM

JudgeX said:


> Please do yourself a favor and do not refer to women as handsome in the USA. You don't seem smart for doing so.


 
Actually, I would say the opposite. The most common present-day settings for "handsome" are in literature and journalism. If anything, it is a marker of a literary or journalistic bent, in my opinion.  I would not expect it in everyday conversation.



> What I retain from all that has been said is that first, it ought not be used in a direct address to a woman, then that although it is used in BE as a compliment on the beauty of a woman, conveying the idea that a woman has class, it is not the case in AE.


 
I think you have misunderstood. Several current examples have been quoted in AE writing, both in literature and the general press. It is not a word that would be used as a direct compliment to a woman in AE. That much is agreed. However, it would not be out of place in a magazine article, a newspaper column, or a book in AE as a complimentary description of a woman, despite some personal preferences.


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## JudgeX

JamesM said:


> Actually, I would say the opposite. The most common present-day settings for "handsome" are in literature and journalism. If anything, it is a marker of a literary or journalistic bent, in my opinion.  I would not expect it in everyday conversation.



Actually, you came close to grasping my point, but missed it, I think.  What I was conveying is that if you use the word "handsome" to describe a woman, it draws more focus on your poor choice of words than it does on the actual subject you're trying to compliment.  The mind of the American reader/listener often then goes into a loop of trying to figure out why you used the word handsome (perhaps you're foreign and don't realize that in the states we use that for guys, which is cool, or... the negative idea that maybe you're intentionally using poor word choice in an attempt to mark yourself journalistic or literary.)

In other words, do yourself a favor and just avoid it, when you have a plethora of other words and phrases that can mean exactly the same thing, without carrying the "faux-literate" or "possibly pretentious" connotation.  Since you're NOT from the 1920's-1960's, writing a book in that era... and you're NOT from a country that still uses that word in that way, you're only going to earn yourself undue attention.


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## Franzi

JudgeX said:


> the negative idea that maybe you're intentionally using poor word choice in an attempt to mark yourself journalistic or literary.)


 
Or using apt word choice in an attempt to not sound folksy and pseudo-populist?


There have already been examples given of contemporary uses of 'handsome' as applied to women in AE.  We've also gone over the connotations of the word and the contexts where it's appropriate and inappropriate.  We've also established that AE speakers don't agree on how dated or how insulting the word is.


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## GreenWhiteBlue

JudgeX said:


> What I was conveying is that if you use the word "handsome" to describe a woman, it draws more focus on your poor choice of words than it does on the actual subject you're trying to compliment.


"Handsome" is a perfectly acceptable word in American English (certainly in American English as spoken by educated adult speakers) when describing a certain type of attractive woman, and there is nothing whatsoever about the word that would make its choice "poor", other than the possibility that the woman described is not, in fact, handsome.  There is no reason to avoid this perfectly suitable word.


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## JamesM

JudgeX said:


> Since you're NOT from the 1920's-1960's, writing a book in that era... and you're NOT from a country that still uses that word in that way, you're only going to earn yourself undue attention.


 
This impression that it is not in current use is simply unfounded. I don't know any way to dispel it other than to cite _current_ examples of popular and respected American authors using the word:

*Beautiful Boy,* by David Sheff, published 2008, Non-fiction

A handsome woman with auburn hair cut short, wearing a silk blouse, cardigan, and wool pants, says that she is a doctor. Deeply sad, she admits that for more than a year she conducted surgeries while high on meth.

*The New Single Woman,* by Ellen Kay Trimberger, published 2006, Non-fiction 

Mary was a tall - about five foot eleven - handsome woman with short salt-and-pepper hair. She was outgoing and open. When remembering the fun she had had as a teenager in her convent boarding school, she broke into a hearty laugh.

*Runner of Pern,* by Anne McCaffrey, published 1998, Fiction

And Cesila was a handsome woman: lithe still and slender, with graceful hands and feet. Tenna wished she were more like her mother.

*Godplayer,* by Robin Cook, published 2000, Fiction 

She was sitting by the window, pale and expectant, arms on her knees, hands clasped. Thomas walked over to her and looked down. He'd seen her once before in his office and knew her name was Laura. She was a handsome woman, probably about thirty, with fine light brown hair pulled back from her forehead in a long ponytail.

*The Teahouse Fire, *by Ellis Avery, published 2006, Fiction

I looked in the washstand mirror the next morning and saw that I would have been a reasonably pretty girl had I grown up in New York, a black-and-pale gamine. At thirty-five, I was a handsome woman.


Here are some examples from newspaper articles:

The Other Son, L.A. Times, October 19, 2008

A handsome woman with prominent features, she was a single mom whose ex-husband sat in jail for helping to run a speak-easy. She was also a professional woman who worked at the telephone company and apparently prided herself on maintaining a nonemotional, businesslike manner when dealing with men in authority. 

From a review of "110 in the Shade", L.A. Times, May 10, 2007

Like *LaChanze* in 'The Color Purple' and *Eve Best *in 'A Moon for the Misbegotten,' McDonald must whip up the passions of a handsome woman who feels ugly inside. Although embarrassed by blatant efforts to marry her off, Lizzie cherishes the depths of her family's affection for her."

From a review of a Barbecue Restaurant in Culver City, L.A. Times, undated

Lulled by the heat and my hunger, it takes me a minute before I notice the fresh orchid sprays in vases along the counter.
"There's Jeanie," whispers Mr. Barbecue as a handsome woman with an apron tied matter-of-factly around her middle approaches. "You want some rib tips?" she asks him in a honeyed Memphis drawl.

From an article on a mass murder at a Goleta postal facility, L.A. Times, Feb. 1, 2006:

The killing of 33-year-old Ze Vang Fairchild, a slight, handsome woman known for her vivacity, stunned the 60 employees of Santa Barbara Airbus, where Fairchild’s husband, Joe, worked as a dispatcher.


It is simple work to find hundreds of examples from all sorts of sources.

[edit] One more great example from a review of the book "Tallulah!" from L.A. Times, January 9, 2005:

Photographs in “Tallulah!” dispel the notion of Lobenthal and others that Bankhead was a great beauty. A smashingly handsome woman, she appeared increasingly mannish as she aged, becoming finally almost identical to the drag queens who imitated her. Like Bette Davis and the later Joan Crawford, she played only beautiful women, their entrances requiring preparatory tributes to their beauty to suspend disbelief.


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## AngelEyes

I can't argue that these are many fine examples of popular fiction and non-fiction where the use of this word seems to fit the context of the authors' storyline goal.

But there is a legitimate "other side" to this word, too. And it would be incomplete not to at least acknowledge it.

In the world of women's contemporary romance fiction, if the word "handsome" were used as part of the physical profile of any heroine in a book, it would never work. No hero of romance would be attracted to a woman who was handsome. I've never once read a book where the man was overcome with feelings of sexual weakness for a woman who might be described as *handsome*.

It just wouldn't compute. He wouldn't look twice at this female. She wouldn't be a blip on his sexual radar.

There may be some stories out there, but I've never personally seen them.

And I'm not talking _bodice rippers,_ either. I'm talking legitimate top-of-the-line romance stories. Women who are incurable romantics would never believe a rugged, sexy man would seek out a handsome woman. So the word is not relevant to many, many women. It's not looked at as positive in terms of beauty and sexual attraction. 

I would be very careful in advising someone to use this word because whether you use it as a compliment right to a woman's face, or you use it to describe a woman to someone else, many many people will not take it as such.

There's no judgment in this. It's just a fact of life and non-native speakers should at least be presented with both sides of the story and decide for themselves if they want to use it in this context.

Does handsome = female beauty? To some, it does. To others who aren't exposed to it in a positive physical context, it most definitely isn't.

*AngelEyes*


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## Nymeria

Let me just weigh in here and state that I agree with AngelEyes. It seems like if persons in the thread are trying to do the unwise: divorce the denotative meaning of the word from its connotation and intended use. While "handsome" may have a lovely definition, the fact remains that in modern day usage it is most unwelcome in many situations.

If any word is meant to be complimentary, whether in a direct sense or as an indirect description, there should be no confusion. The _*aim *_of a compliment, or a complimentary statement, is to be positive and uplifting. If there is a possibility that the person being spoken to, or about, will not feel complimented, then be safe and choose another word. Simple. That's all it boils down to really.

Even if they are a number of instances where "handsome" was used successfully, the word still remains a "hit or miss" and, among many modern women, a most definite miss. So unless you are writing a novel set in times gone by, I suggest *very *careful use of the word, if at all.


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## ewie

AngelEyes said:


> Women who are incurable romantics would never believe a rugged, sexy man would seek out a handsome woman.


And yet they would find a man in a toupée _sexy_.  [BE _rug_ = wig, toupée]


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## Thomas Tompion

Don't you think there are times when you want to use an adjective in a transexual way? I knew someone, a long time ago, who said that if you went up to someone and said Have you heard they're doing a film biography of Gertrude Stein?, this always provoked the rejoinder Oh really! Who's playing the big lead? He said he always replied: Spencer Tracey.

The point I'm making is that in some women you see the man they might have been, and then an adjective which is normally applied to men becomes a way of implying this. I'm not suggesting you do this when addressing the person themselves, and you might, of course, cause offence whoever you said it to in these politically correct times. At all times we must choose our interlocutors with care.

Before every woman on WR crosses me off her list, I ought to add that the process can equally be applied in the opposite direction, of an effeminate man.

I'm not saying either that this is the only way in which handsome can be applied to a woman - I agree with a lot of James's posts here, just one possible way.


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## panjandrum

I've just read through JamesM's examples again in the light of AngelEyes' and Nymeria's comments.  These have helped to focus an elusive concern about this term.

The description "a handsome woman" suggests to me an objective and dispassionate opinion.  She is a good example of the kind, well-constructed and well-presented - but almost certainly not my ideal companion.


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## Loob

Tagarela said:


> I ran into another example of "handsome woman" in A tale of two cities by Charles Dickens: "(...)_if she had been he vainest and handosmest of women._" [Part II, Chapter VI]
> 
> So, as some of you have said, I should take it as "elegant", "in good shape", is that right?


In the context in which Tagarela revived this thread, I think the "elegant"/"in good shape" meaning is exactly right.

Or, as the OED puts it 





> *6. a.* Having a fine form or figure (usually in conjunction with full size or stateliness); ‘beautiful with dignity’ (J.) ‘fine’.


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## pretty women

A woman with the kind of refined beauty and attractiveness that requires poise, dignity, and strength of mind and character, things that often come with age; not merely sex-appeal. Usually applied to a woman who is also very well-groomed and from an upper class background. 

This phrase is very dated and rarely used in today's English. Those who don't understand the term could almost be insulted by the word "handsome" being applied to a woman, mistakenly thinking you're saying she is masculine. 
  "Though she had lost long ago her virginal loveliness, she had ripened into a handsome and fruitful looking woman.


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## spatula

This is an interesting one.  I wouldn't be pleased to be told I was a handsome woman, and yet I only recently described another woman as being exactly that without intending any malice!  I agree with what's been said about symmetry and, to a certain extent, would add androgynous to the mix.  I picture a handsome woman to be striking in an attractive, yet somewhat masculine way.  Amazonian perhaps.

But I'd still prefer to be thought of as pretty any day!


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## Thomas Tompion

Hi Spatula,  Your public profile doesn't give your age.  I'm not suggesting that you need to do this, but don't you think that how old a woman is influences how she views herself, and hence how she'd be likely to respond to being called handsome?  In my book it's an epithet which could be a compliment to an older woman and almost offensive when applied to a younger one.


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## natkretep

I think the important point is JamesM's that _handsome_ for a woman is not something you say off the cuff, or to compliment a woman to her face. It is *literary* and *journalistic *in nature. It is mainly to do with a woman's physical features, whereas _beautiful_ is more general and _pretty_ implies a degree of softness. If I was discussing the physical features of a woman with my wife (not to her face, of course, but where careful selection of words might be assumed), I might also use the word in panj's sense 'well-constructed and well-presented', or the OED sense 6a (as quoted by Loob). I think it's also important not to tell learners of English _not_ to use the word: they just need to be sensitised to the nuances and the contexts in which it might be appropriate.


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## James Brandon

The nuances spelt out by the various contributors are undoubtedly interesting. As far as learners of English are concerned, however, and as mentioned by some contributors, I think it is important for them to realise that they don't need to worry about this issue at all, i.e. using the word 'handsome' when talking about a woman, which would be relatively rare any way. 

They should stick to the trusted 'good-looking', which can be used for both men and women, or 'handsome', for a man, or 'beautiful', 'pretty', and 'attractive', which can be used for women (even though they may have slightly different meanings). 

The most neutral term for a woman probably is 'good-looking' or 'attractive'. In my experience, you can even say it about a colleague or business acquaintance in a PC context, in work, here in the UK, _without_ risking being (by female colleagues, more particularly) accused of being sexist, or a sex maniac, or a lecher, or a potential rapist. It is nice to know that certain adjectives will not land you in court.


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## spatula

Hi Thomas

Thanks for pointing out that my age does not appear, I shall amend this (thought I'd ticked the right box upon registering). I agree that one's age can be a major contributing factor to appreciating a person's use and comprehension of language, making it a very useful tool on this forum to grasp what interpretation is most likely to be the one closest to a person's needs.

Nevertheless, I'd maintain that that's irrelevant in this instance, as to this 45-year-old, _'handsome'_ still signifies an attractive androgynous look, rather than beauty pertaining to a specific gender!


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## cuchuflete

For those who insist that the term is literary or old-fashioned, please note that this isn't always the case.  The following quote is spoken by a man in his thirties or forties, talking about his mother.  The tone throughout is conversational, rather than formal or literary.

She was still handsome.  Her skin shined and her hair was salt-and-peppery, off the shoulder in a fifties way she'd worn since I could remember.  There was something winsome about her, even in her sixties.  

​_Bob the Gambler  _by Frederick Barthelme, Houghton Mifflin, 1997, p 103


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## LV4-26

Here's another quote, while we're at it.
You'll notice that the adjective _handsome_ doesn't apply to the woman herself, but to her neck. This particular detail might be of some interest.

Interesting as well, is the fact that, on the whole, the author writes a very informal English (though it doesn't particularly show in this passage).



> She had her hair up, pinned loosely behind her head, and as she turned she showed a long, cool, naked neck, downy and handsome.



_Dead Birds_, by John Milne, 1986.


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## spatula

Another thought from me as I heard it said this weekend. My (elderly) aunt described another (elderly) woman as having 'definitely been a handsome woman in her day'. Something about it made me wonder whether it in some way was appropriate to a woman who appeared to have a healthy constitution, from which her good looks emanate. It comes back to the image of strength and fitness.


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## George French

spatula said:


> This is an interesting one. I wouldn't be pleased to be told I was a handsome woman, and yet I only recently described another woman as being exactly that without intending any malice! I agree with what's been said about symmetry and, to a certain extent, would add androgynous to the mix. I picture a handsome woman to be striking in an attractive, yet somewhat masculine way. Amazonian perhaps.
> 
> But I'd still prefer to be thought of as pretty any day!


 
One avantage of handsome, it probably outlasts prettyness/beauty.
Also, why can't we just accept that although usage changes just let people like me live out their 3 score & 10 (hopefully more) without having to worry about the effect of using "old fashioned forms" of the language!!

Just think about how some modern usage make us oldies cringe!

GF..


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## AndreH

I have to say that I am kind of appalled by some peoples reaction to the term 'handsome women'. I think it is a very positive term and I did some research to prove this. What I found is a Japanese website with a very nice definition which I would like to share here:

The (Japanese) website is "hsww.jp" (to the moderator: there is nothing to by there, it is not any kind of promotion.. I simply think they have a great definition and I want to provide my resource to prove I'm not making this up) and in the About section of that site there is this definition:

"When you say "handsome" in Japanese, the first thought you come up with in your mind is good-looking men. However, the word "handsome" in English has various meanings. It refers to women with their total beauty involving not only their physical attractiveness, their dignity and grace, but also their inner strength and sophisticated image. When the word is used for objects, it indicates something of fine quality and significant quantity, such as "handsome price" and "handsome present".[...]."

I hope this sheds some light on this matter and makes people having a more positive attitude to "handsome women".

Thank you!

- Andre


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## natkretep

Thanks, Andre, and welcome to the Forums.

The site, however, seems to be mainly in Japanese, and does it not focus more on how 'handsome' is used in Japanese rather than in English?


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## AndreH

natkretep said:


> Thanks, Andre, and welcome to the Forums.
> 
> The site, however, seems to be mainly in Japanese, and does it not focus more on how 'handsome' is used in Japanese rather than in English?



True, the site is mainly Japanese.. but the excerpt I added to the post clearly states that the writer refers to how "handsome" is used in English. 

Honestly, I work in the localization business for more than 11 years and work together with people from Germany, Britain, the U.S., Korea, Japan, China, and other countries and I do not believe that any one of them would have a problem using 'handsome' in front of women. Maybe I try it on them and see what I get.


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## Thomas Tompion

AndreH said:


> [...]Honestly, I work in the localization business for more than 11 years and work together with people from Germany, Britain, the U.S., Korea, Japan, China, and other countries and I do not believe that any one of them would have a problem using 'handsome' in front of women. Maybe I try it on them and see what I get.


You say they wouldn't have a problem using the word, but are you sure they appreciate its overtones in English?


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## almostfreebird

well, I'm a native Japanese and I'm sure ordinary people don't use "handsome"
to describe women in Japan.

I wouldn't mind to use it though, if the woman is mannish and attractive(like some pro-wrestler).

By the way, ordinary Japanese people don't appreciate its overtones in English unless they're good at English language. 

Reference: http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...rdreference+japanese+ハンドサム&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk


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## Thomas Tompion

I think you illustrate the point I was making, Almostfreebird.  The word doesn't suggest that the woman looks like some pro-wrestler.

JamesM (in post 12# and later in this thread, for instance) gives good explanations of how it is used, in my view.


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## AngelEyes

If a handsome man - young or old - told me to my face or said behind my back I was a handsome woman, I'd want to shoot myself.

I actually asked my younger, beautiful niece last night if she'd consider it a compliment, and she looked at me like I was crazy.

My advice is to tread very carefully when using this phrase, at least here in Michigan.


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## london calling

AngelEyes said:


> If a handsome man - young or old - told me to my face or said behind my back I was a handsome woman, I'd want to shoot myself.
> 
> I actually asked my younger, beautiful niece last night if she'd consider it a compliment, and she looked at me like I was crazy.
> 
> My advice is to tread very carefully when using this phrase, at least here in Michigan.


I agree!
This came out recently when my father commented that a friend of my mother's was a "handsome woman". Given his reply when I asked exactly what he meant (I already had my suspicions and he confirmed them: a handsome woman is not beautiful or even pretty, she's rather mannish), I would also shoot myself if I were ever to be defined as such.


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## AngelEyes

For those in this thread who think this phrase is a nice comment, I'd be very interested in having you ask around your circle of female friends/family how they'd feel if you told them they were handsome.

Maybe it is a regional choice.

I'm curious who and where these women are who would like you to think of them that way.

I'm being sincere here.

Please ask a woman you know if she likes the fact you think she's handsome.


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## Forero

"Handsome" is not something I go about calling women I know, but "mannish" is nothing at all what the term means to me. Maybe "handsome woman" is a sort of men's secret.

To me, a handsome woman is a woman with timeless, classical physical beauty, irrespective of cultural or fashion. Not so much the temptress type as the type a (classical) man would never think of leaving, the kind that turns up in dreams and daydreams, not the kind commonly "advertized" in movies and television.

I know perhaps many women of this body type, but of course I never tell them. They tend to be "already spoken for", but I always keep an eye out for one that isn't.

Examples in art: Greek Goddesses, and Lady Liberty in that famous painting. (Sorry, I have never been good at remembering famous people's names.)


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## Thomas Tompion

You say nothing unequivocal about age, Forero.  Could you use it of a woman under forty, for instance, without it sounding like a euphemism?  I'm not sure I could.

Of a woman over sixty, I'd think it a compliment.  I'm not sure our suicide candidates have been explicit about their ages.


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## JamesM

AngelEyes said:


> For those in this thread who think this phrase is a nice comment, I'd be very interested in having you ask around your circle of female friends/family how they'd feel if you told them they were handsome.



I asked my wife.  She said that she would consider it a compliment, not necessarily about beauty but strength of character.  To her a handsome woman is one who has a strength and a presence that is striking.


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## AngelEyes

JamesM said:


> I asked my wife. She said that she would consider it a compliment, not necessarily about beauty but strength of character. To her a handsome woman is one who has a strength and a presence that is striking.


 

James, thanks for asking your wife. Yes, I would readily think of strength of character as the positive meaning of this phrase.

_Striking_ is a little trickier. Maybe because no one has ever in my life told me I was striking-looking, so I don't have any experience with my reaction to it. Still, it builds in my mind images of sturdy, solid females. The men I'm attracted to aren't attracted to this kind of woman, so maybe that's my weak point here, and why I just can't give my support of it being a full-blown compliment.

My recommendation is to steer clear of using this phrase if you want to make a good impression on the female in question.



> _I'm not sure our suicide candidates have been explicit about their ages._


   And that's not going to happen any time soon, either.


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## JamesM

You are still stuck on this idea that the question was about complimenting a woman by calling her handsome.  This has nothing to do with the original question, which was:



> Hello everybody,
> I had always been told that the adjective 'handsome' is for men, and that women are supposed to be 'pretty'.
> Is there any added meaning if you say 'a handsome woman'? Which is what I have just found in an academic text about a novel by Jane Austen. Thanks for your help.



Now that you have warned people at least four times in this thread that they should not use it directly unless they're willing to risk insulting the woman, I think you've made your tangential point.

The word exists.  It has connotations which have been laid out in detail in the posts above.  It _is _used to describe women.   It is not typically used as a direct compliment and some women would find it insulting.  It is, however, current in writing and, by some accounts, in speech, both in BE and AE.

Can we please put it to rest now, without another repeat of "don't call _me_ handsome"?


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## AngelEyes

James,

The initial question involved learning contemporary _nuances_ of the word. I assumed, apparently incorrectly, that nuances are found most easily in personal experience and opinion.

My comments are not the only ones that involve these, but you're right. I've made my point, as you've made yours.


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## Nunty

This seems like a good place to close the thread. The original question, its nuances and implications have been discussed at length and there does not seem to be much more to say.

Thank you for participating, everybody.

Nunty, moderator


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