# Urdu/Hindi: baahar/baahir/bahaar



## Qureshpor

All of us would agree that the word in question is "baahar" (outside) which one hears being pronounced as "baahir". But, this is not so bad I suppose. Have you come across the pronunication "bahaar"!?


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## Billaa

Just out of curiosity, did you hear the third variant in a cooking show?


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## Qureshpor

Billaa said:


> Just out of curiosity, did you hear the third variant in a cooking show?



Well, I have heard the third pronunciation on a number of occasions but I can't pin point the speakers. However, it was Jaya Bachchan using this pronunciation in a 1983 BBC interview which I saw today and it was this that became the catalyst for starting this thread.


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## Billaa

QURESHPOR said:


> Well, I have heard the third pronunciation on a number of occasions but I can't pin point the speakers. However, it was Jaya Bachchan using this pronunciation in a 1983 BBC interview which I saw today and it was this that became the catalyst for starting this thread.


Oh, in fact, I just heard 'bahaar' about an hour ago on a Pakistani cooking show for the first time. To be precise, it was different from bahaar (بہار/Spring), but the second vowel was definitely longer than the first.


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## marrish

I believe it is nothing new, here is what Platts has to tell us about it:

H 
بہار भार _bhār, adj. Corr. of bāhir or bāhar, q.v.
_
Also the version _baahir_ is somewhat closer to its predecessor (contains an ''i'').


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> I believe it is nothing new, here is what Platts has to tell us about it:
> 
> H بہار भार _bhār, adj. Corr. of bāhir or bāhar, q.v.
> _
> Also the version _baahir_ is somewhat closer to its predecessor (contains an ''i'').




par baadhaaho... this is "bhaar" not "bahaar"!

Regarding your second point, yes Platts gives "baahir" as the first entry. Another preconception shattered! What's the world coming to?


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## marrish

QURESHPOR said:


> par baadhaaho... this is "bhaar" not "bahaar"!
> 
> Regarding your second point, yes Platts gives "baahir" as the first entry. Another preconception shattered! What's the world coming to?


Yes, it is not ''_bahaar_'' in _nagari_ but it is so in Urdu!

Sarkaar, there is no much difference between the two, as per my taste. Then, however he puts _baahir_ at the first place, still he goes on using _baahar_ all the time in the definition. So the mystery is to be solved yet...


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## tonyspeed

QURESHPOR said:


> Well, I have heard the third pronunciation on a number of occasions but I can't pin point the speakers. However, it was Jaya Bachchan using this pronunciation in a 1983 BBC interview which I saw today and it was this that became the catalyst for starting this thread.



"Jaya Bhaduri was born in a Hindu Bengali family to Indira and Taroon Kumar Bhaduri, writer, journalist and stage artist in Jabalpur. She studied in St. Joseph's Convent School, Bhopal."

Could her upbringing in Madya Pradesh have anything to do with this pronunciation difference?


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> All of us would agree that the word in question is "baahar" (outside) which one hears being pronounced as "baahir". But, this is not so bad I suppose. Have you come across the pronunication "bahaar"!?


 Oh yes! Lots of times in Lahore (laa-haur), Islamabad and even Karachi. Almost all the time from Punjabis. In fact many of my Punjabi friends say this.


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## marrish

Faylasoof said:


> Oh yes! Lots of times in Lahore (laa-haur), Islamabad and even Karachi. Almost all the time from Punjabis. In fact many of my Punjabi friends say this.


Faylasoof SaaHib, I'll bet they are not producing the ''h'' when speaking like this.


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## BP.

Although we use baahar, I've known people who say baahir.


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## Faylasoof

marrish said:


> Faylasoof SaaHib, I'll bet they are not producing the ''h'' when speaking like this.


 marrish SaaHIb, I do seem to recall the "h"! Are you saying they say: baar ? I've this too but I wouldn't put my finger on whether they were in the majority or not.


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## Faylasoof

BelligerentPacifist said:


> Although we use baahar, I've known people who say baahir.


 _baahir_ is quite common in at least eastern UP!


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## Alfaaz

Generalizations (not at all representative of all individuals/groups/languages, neither an attempt to stereotype...): pronunciation could depend on a variety of factors including, but not limited to: education level, family members' pronunciations, location, etc. etc.  

Urdu speaking (and/or those who speak Urdu "properly") baahar or sometimes baahir

Punjabi influenced: ba'ar (with a very, very slight h, or perhaps more like a dull 'ain________but this again depends on areas...); or just baahir/baahar 

Pashto influenced: baa-ar or baa-ir (with the h seeming absent, but again not necessarily...); or just baahir/baahar 

Sindhi influenced: baa-er,  baa-her (again not necessarily); or just baahir/baahar 

Probably Hyderabaadi or Gujraati or some other part....: baahir (again not necessarily); or just baahar 

This is the first time hearing bahaar! Is it like the same _bahaar_ as in: khizaaN naheeN bahaar hooN, bahaar ka nishaan hooN...? Interesting!


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## JaiHind

QURESHPOR said:


> All of us would agree that the word in question is "baahar" (outside) which one hears being pronounced as "baahir". But, this is not so bad I suppose. Have you come across the pronunication "bahaar"!?



If it is meant to mean "outside", it should always be pronounced as "baahar". "bahaar" or "baahir" are both wrong pronunciations of this word.


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## Qureshpor

My understanding is that "bahaar" is not restricted to Punjabi speakers as Jaya Bachchan's example clearly shows. I do find it strange though, since the Punjabi "baahr" (h for tone) is nothing like "bahaar". But languages work in weird and wonderful ways!


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## Faylasoof

Faylasoof said:


> Originally Posted by *BelligerentPacifist*
> Although we use baahar, I've known people who say baahir.
> 
> 
> 
> _baahir_ is quite common in at least eastern UP!
Click to expand...

 As the question of _*baahar*_ vs. _*baahir*_ once again came up in this thread, I thought I’d add a bit more here on this.

Although *baahir* is used quite commonly, we don’t consider this as standard Urdu pronunciation. It is always *baahar* for us!

The only place I can think of at the moment where a _baah*i*r-related_ term appears in Urdu is in the term _saadaat-e-baah*i*rah_ which is often mutilated in speech to saadaat baarhaa / saadaat baahraa / saadaat-e-baaraa (Saadat-e-Bara) etc. All wrong!

Should be سادات باہرہ _saadaat-e-baah*i*rah_ (= The Glittering / Dazzling Syeds) where the term *baahirah* is from the Arabic root b-h-r (_bahara_) -> *baahir *باهر =  dazzling / brilliant / splendid. These days this term refers also to an area near Muzaffarnagar, western UP.

The Syed Brothers who became the King-Makers of the mid-Mughal period were from this clan.


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## BP.

Faylasoof said:


> ...
> The only place I can think of at the moment where a _baah*i*r-related_ term appears in Urdu is in the term _saadaat-e-baah*i*rah_ which is often mutilated in speech to saadaat baarhaa / saadaat baahraa / saadaat-e-baaraa (Saadat-e-Bara) etc. All wrong!
> 
> Should be سادات باہرہ _saadaat-e-baah*i*rah_ (= The Glittering / Dazzling Syeds) where the term *baahirah* is from the Arabic root b-h-r (_bahara_) -> *baahir *باهر =  dazzling / brilliant / splendid. These days this term refers also to an area near Muzaffarnagar, western UP...



And I was told by one that he was from saadaate baaraaN! I'm sure they did not wash down with the rain!
But they were here more than half a millennium before we were, and the pronunciation has had ample time to be, as you put, mutilated.


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## greatbear

QURESHPOR said:


> All of us would agree that the word in question is "baahar" (outside) which one hears being pronounced as "baahir". But, this is not so bad I suppose. Have you come across the pronunication "bahaar"!?



I have heard the third one sometimes but never the second one (baahir)!


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## Faylasoof

greatbear said:


> I have heard the third one sometimes but never the second one (baahir)!


 Apart from hearing _baah*i*r_ instead of what we always say, i.e. _baah*a*r,_ in both India  and Pakistan, I just looked up Standard 20th Century Urdu-English  dictionary (Publiishers: _Educational Publishing House, Delhi, India_) and  was surprised to see _baah*i*r _listed but _not_ _baah*a*r_!! Dictionary entry: _baah*i*r_ (colloq. _baah*a*r_): Outside ....

Platts has both but seems to prefer _baah*a*r_:
H *باهر बाहिर bāhir, बाहर bāhar *[S. वहिस्, वहिर्],  adv. & postposn. (governing gen., -_ke_, or abl., -_se_), Outside, exterior; externally, outward; out, out of; beyond, exceeding; beyond the effect or influence (of, -_se_); without, abroad, away;—intj. Out! away!:—_*bāhar*-bhītar_, s.m. Outside and inside; ingress and egress; going out, visiting;—adv. In and out; within and without:—_*bāhar *jānā_, v.n. To go out; to go away or on a journey:—*bāhar* ....


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