# sein



## Dueño de Brucéfalo

Hello, everyone. In English, the verb "to be" can sometimes be used to mean "to exist", as "this is a thing that should not *be*". I'm not sure whether or not _sein_ can be used in the same way. I came across this in a song by Ramstein: _Ohne dich kann ich nicht sein_. Would this be best translated as "I can not [stand to] be without you" or "I cannot exist without you"?

Danke, alles.


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## muycuriosa

Hi!

  I'd say 'I cannot be without you' = 'I cannot live without you'.
I wonder, however, if there's a big difference in meaning if you say 'exist' instead of 'be'. And then I'd be curious to know if the one with 'exist' is a sentence you really use when you talk to someone you love.

Regards,
   muycuriosa


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## Aurin

I can´t see any difference between the meanings in:
Ohne dich kann ich nicht sein/leben/existieren.


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## muycuriosa

Aurin said:


> I can´t see any difference between the meanings in:
> Ohne dich kann ich nicht sein/leben/existieren.


 
That's what I, too, think about the German words.
What I meant was 'exist' and 'be' in English - the text in the first post made me think there might be one ...


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## driFDer

Ohne dich is a great song.  I think perhaps some are not considering the context of the song.  Obviously one can exist,live,and be without someone "physically" but the song is playing on the "emotional" side.  I think in that context (emotionally) any of these can be used or considered.  I think if Till wanted to say he could not "exist" or "live" without "dich" then he may not have chosen sein.  Also you have to consider the meter and rhyme of the song.  The following sentence in this song ends in "allein."  So I believe "sein" was choosen for rhyming reasons plus the emphasis of the sentence is on "ohne dich" instead of "ich kann nicht" where perhaps in a normal sentence it would be.  I believe each word more or less has the same meaning but I don't believe they all "feel" the same.


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## Begonaf

Well, however, I think that what the song exactly means is; I can’t be without you, in the sense of human behind, is like I’m not the same person without you, this person that I’m when you’re around


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## Dueño de Brucéfalo

driFDer said:


> Ohne dich is a great song. I think perhaps some are not considering the context of the song. Obviously one can exist,live,and be without someone "physically" but the song is playing on the "emotional" side. I think in that context (emotionally) any of these can be used or considered. I think if Till wanted to say he could not "exist" or "live" without "dich" then he may not have chosen sein. Also you have to consider the meter and rhyme of the song. The following sentence in this song ends in "allein." So I believe "sein" was choosen for rhyming reasons plus the emphasis of the sentence is on "ohne dich" instead of "ich kann nicht" where perhaps in a normal sentence it would be. I believe each word more or less has the same meaning but I don't believe they all "feel" the same.


 
 I'm relieved to see that you know the song, and I think you make a good point. Just for everyone, the lyrics can be found here: http://herzeleid.com/en/lyrics/reise_reise/ohne_dich with an unofficial English translation. I hope that seeing the full text will make it a little more clear. Thanks, all.


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## EvilWillow

Aurin said:


> I can´t see any difference between the meanings in:
> Ohne dich kann ich nicht sein/leben/existieren.


Die Variante mit _sein_ hört sich nach meinem Sprachgefühl ziemlich "schief" an. Vielleicht ist sie auch "nur" zu "poetisch".



			
				driFDer said:
			
		

> Also you have to consider the meter and rhyme of the song. The following sentence in this song ends in "allein." So I believe "sein" was choosen for rhyming reasons


Ich stimme zu. Das ist wohl der Grund, warum sie hier _sein _gewählt haben.


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## Whodunit

EvilWillow said:


> Die Variante mit _sein_ hört sich nach meinem Sprachgefühl ziemlich "schief" an. Vielleicht ist sie auch "nur" zu "poetisch".


 
Ich halte sie eher für poetisch als für schief. Das Wort "sein" kann in vielen Zusammenhängen sehr wohl "existieren" oder "leben" bedeuten. Nach einem "ohne dich" klingt es für mich sehr passend.


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## gaer

Aurin said:


> I can´t see any difference between the meanings in:
> Ohne dich kann ich nicht sein/leben/existieren.


The problem is translation, not German. 

I can't ___ without out you.

"Be" won't work. "Exist" will, and "live" will also work. 

Gaer


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## Whodunit

gaer said:


> The problem is translation, not German.
> 
> I can't ___ without out you.
> 
> "Be" won't work. "Exist" will, and "live" will also work.
> 
> Gaer


 
Hm, ich meine, es klingt vielleicht nicht besonders schön, aber ist es wirklich so ungebräuchlich, "I can't be without you" zu sagen?


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## gaer

Whodunit said:


> Hm, ich meine, es klingt vielleicht nicht besonders schön, aber ist es wirklich so ungebräuchlich, "I can't be without you" zu sagen?


TOUGH question!

My intepretation:

"I can't be without you"="I can't stand to be without you"="I feel terribly lonely without you"

However, other people may disagree. I think you've made a good point. 

Gaer


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## Dueño de Brucéfalo

Sorry, folks. I think I forgot to mention that my own command of German is extremely limited, so a few of those last posts when whizzing right over my head....


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## Whodunit

No problem, Dueño. We're all here to learn. 

To sum up the last important messages, I can tell you that the verb "sein" sounds weird to Aurin in the context given. I, however, consider it rather poetic than weird. Then I wanted to know if it was possible to use the verb "be" in English in this context, but Gaer didn't quite know.


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## driFDer

Whodunit said:


> I can tell you that the verb "sein" sounds weird to Aurin in the context given. I, however, consider it rather poetic than weird.


 
If anyone thinks that "sein" sounds weird at the end of the sentence, you should hear the rest of the chorus!

After the sentence already given, Till contradicts himself with: _Mit dir bin ich auch allein. _That is weird.  "I can not stand to be without you" (I like Gaer's interpretaion) followed by "I am also alone with you."

And if that isn't weird, the last sentence in the chorus is "Lohnen nicht ohne dich.  Lohnen is not even used with a reflexive pronoun!  I guess it is just assumed? But have a look at the rhyming pattern.

Lohnen nicht ohne dich. = o e i o e i


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## gaer

driFDer said:


> If anyone thinks that "sein" sounds weird at the end of the sentence, you should hear the rest of the chorus!
> 
> After the sentence already given, Till contradicts himself with: _Mit dir bin ich auch allein. _That is weird. "I can not stand to be without you" (I like Gaer's interpretaion) followed by "I am also alone with you."
> 
> And if that isn't weird, the last sentence in the chorus is "Lohnen nicht ohne dich. Lohnen is not even used with a reflexive pronoun! I guess it is just assumed? But have a look at the rhyming pattern.
> 
> Lohnen nicht ohne dich. = o e i o e i


Results 1 - 10 of about 197,000 for "I can't live without you".
Results 1 - 10 of about 14,000 for "I can't be without you"
Results 1 - 10 of about 116 for "I can't exist without you".

I think the meaning may turn out to be: "I can't live with you, and I can't live without you."

Gaer


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## Dueño de Brucéfalo

gaer said:


> Results 1 - 10 of about 197,000 for "I can't live without you".
> Results 1 - 10 of about 14,000 for "I can't be without you"
> Results 1 - 10 of about 116 for "I can't exist without you".
> 
> I think the meaning may turn out to be: "I can't live with you, and I can't live without you."
> 
> Gaer



Thanks for the summary, who! Anyway, I'm afraid that in the context of the song, "I can't live with you, and I can't live without you" really doesn't make much sense. Overall, it's about losing a loved one (I think).


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## gaer

Dueño de Brucéfalo said:


> Thanks for the summary, who! Anyway, I'm afraid that in the context of the song, "I can't live with you, and I can't live without you" really doesn't make much sense. Overall, it's about losing a loved one (I think).


Good luck finding out what it really means, because it is absolute unclear:

Ohne dich kann ich nicht sein
Mit dir bin ich auch allein

Without you I cannot be/live/exist
With you I am alone too

OR

I am also alone with you.

(And then it goes on to say something about the seconds stand still when I'm with you, so it doesn't pay, isn't worth it.)

Regardless of what the "hidden meaning" is, it appears that the person who is talking about himself is lonely with or without someone else.

How does that relate to the person being dead unless the person saying these words spends time off and on with a corpse? 

Gaer


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## Whodunit

gaer said:


> Good luck finding out what it really means, because it is absolutely (?) unclear:


 
Okay, Gaer, let me try to interpret it how I understand the two lines:

The narrator/singer can't live without a certain person (let's say a woman), because he loves her and doesn't want to miss a minute with her. On the other hand, the person about whom he sings is cold-hearted and doesn't seem to let anyone (at least not the singer) come near her. Only heaven knows why!

This may be totally off, but I think it is one possibility to understand the text.


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## gaer

Whodunit said:


> Okay, Gaer, let me try to interpret it how I understand the two lines:
> 
> The narrator/singer can't live without a certain person (let's say a woman), because he loves her and doesn't want to miss a minute with her. On the other hand, the person about whom he sings is cold-hearted and doesn't seem to let anyone (at least not the singer) come near her. Only heaven knows why!
> 
> This may be totally off, but I think it is one possibility to understand the text.


That is VERY close to what I thought, Who.

For instance, if a man, is obsessed with a woman who doesn't care about him, then being with her or TRYING to be might be more painful, embarrassing, humiliating, depressing than being without her. 

Gaer


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## Aurin

Also ich interpretiere das Lied ganz anders. Ich sehe eher einen "kranken" ("liebessüchtigen") Menschen, der nicht in der Lage ist, allein zu sein, aber auch nicht mit dem Objekt seiner Sucht zusammen sein kann. 
Beim besten Willen kann ich keine "cold-hearted" Person (Objekt seiner angeblichen Liebe) herauslesen.


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## Dueño de Brucéfalo

Aurin said:


> Also ich interpretiere das Lied ganz anders. Ich sehe eher einen "kranken" ("liebessüchtigen") Menschen, der nicht in der Lage ist, allein zu sein, aber auch nicht mit dem Objekt seiner Sucht zusammen sein kann.
> Beim besten Willen kann ich keine "cold-hearted" Person (Objekt seiner angeblichen Liebe) herauslesen.



Beg pardon?  

Also, the music video for this song shows a group of men hiking into the wilderness, presumably looking for a missing woman. ("Ich werde in die Tannen gehen/ dahin wo ich *sie* zuletzt gesehen").


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## gaer

Dueño de Brucéfalo said:


> Beg pardon?
> 
> Also, the music video for this song shows a group of men hiking into the wilderness, presumably looking for a missing woman. ("Ich werde in die Tannen gehen/ dahin wo ich *sie* zuletzt gesehen").


We are just trying to figure things out from the words. The English translation looks fine to me, so that's not the problem.

Ohne dich zähl ich die Stunden ohne dich
Mit dir stehen die Sekunden
Lohnen nicht

What is your interpretation? The only other thing that I can think of is that someone is standing at a grave.

There is no language problem here other than the problem that all sorts of normal rules about structure, grammar and vocabulary are always broken in many song lyrics and in poetry.

The moment you change the tense, you see that "leben" is much more common:

Results 1 - 10 of about 1,610 for "Ohne dich könnte ich nicht leben".
Results 1 - 4 of about 8 for "Ohne dich könnte ich nicht sein".

So it's obvious that the use of "sein" is poetic and used for rhyme with "allein". The person speaking, if it is one person, is alone without her and alone _*with her*_. If she is dead, if he is at her grave, then it would make sense to me. The problem is not "sein".

Why don't you share with us what you think it means, since you obviously know the song and have seen the video.

Gaer

Gaer


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