# FR: avoir / être - auxiliary for compound tenses



## jumpita

Hi all!!

I'm a bit confused with which auxiliary verb to use when forming the passé composé.
For instance, from what i read the verb "Parler" would be conjugated with the auxiliary verb avoir... "J'ai parlé". But i already saw written "on ne s'est pas parlé"...
So which auxiliary verb to use after all?? Is it an exception?? What's the rule??

Thanks!


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## Nil-the-Frogg

It's not an exception but a reflexive form, or so I think.


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## alisonp

Yes, I agree.

BTW, I presume you know the rhyme:
"Aller, venir, arriver, partir,
Monter, descendre, entrer, sortir,
Rester, tomber, mourir, naître
Forment le passé avec être.
N'oubliez pas, je vous en prie,
Les verbes qui sont réfléchis."


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## jumpita

Is it because we're using the "se" in the sentence and thus we have to use the rule as if it was a reflexive verb (auxiliary verb ÊTRE)?


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## pieanne

All reflexive verbs are conjugated with "être", even if they're not in their non reflexive form


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## DearPrudence

Yes, all reflexive verbs use the "*être*" auxiliary & not "avoir":

*"J'ai coupé du bois" *(I have cut wood)
*"Je me suis coupé" *(I have cut myself)
*"Je me suis coupé le doigt"* (I have cut my finger)


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## yema

when did this distinction in constructing passe compose come into being? and why? i know etre is associated with a couple of verbs describing movement, but is there any reason deeper than that? thanks guys! merci beaucoup!


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## Fred_C

Hi, 
historically, the past participle of some verbs had an active meaning, while the other participles have a passive meaning. (This originated in latin)
For example, the past participle of "manger" is "mangé", and it meant "having been eaten". (passive meaning), while the past participle of "tomber", namely "tombé" meant "having fallen". (active meaning).
For those reasons, the sentence "je suis - tombé" literally meant "I am - in the state where I have fallen". (with the active meaning), and therefore came to mean "I have fallen", while the sentence "J'ai - mangé une pomme" meant "I have - an apple that has been eaten". (with the passive meaning), and therefore meant "I ate an apple".


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## berndf

General rule:
_transitive -> avoir_
_intransitive -> être_
_reflexive -> être_
There are exceptions, but as a guideline it may suffice.

This is consistent with Fred_C's explanation because the past participle is passive for transitive verbs and active for intransitive verbs. For reflexive verbs you may flip the coin either way because active and passive are identical for those verbs. French chose _être_ while, e.g., German which has by and large the same logic chose _haben_ (to have).


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## Sponge78

Forgive me if this is a stupid question, but when french people speak do they associate an active meaning with some verb's past-participle eg; tomber?

So what I mean is do they actually think like this:

"je suis - tombé" 
"I am - in the state where I have fallen" ..
..(associating these meanings with each word)

OR. Having been brought up and learnt to sometimes use être instead of avoir (but not necessarily knowing why), do they think like this:

"je suis tombé" 
"I have fallen"..
..(associating these meanings with the words)

I'm just wondering how to best understand these phrases myself.


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## berndf

_Tombé_ has indeed an active meaning. Remember that active/passive in grammar has nothing to do with activity/inactivity. Passive simply means the exchange of the roles of subject and object. As _tomber_ is intransitive there cannot be a passive meaning to the past participle. Imagine if you heard the English sentences
_He has fallen_
_He is fallen_
The latter would still be understood to be related to him falling; whereas, if you take the sentences
_He has eaten_
_He was eaten_
the latter means something completely different from the former. Here the past participle has a passive meaning and, accordingly, in French you say
_Il a mangé_


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## Grop

Hi, I am not really fond of this passive vs active story. It sure works with _tomber_, but how can _aller _or _monter _be viewed as passive in such sentences as _Je suis allé chercher de l'eau_ or _Je suis monté sur le toit_ ?

Edit: Oh oui, pardon.


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## Fred_C

Grop said:


> Hi, I am not really fond of this passive vs active story. It sure works with _tomber_, but how can _aller _or _monter _be viewed as passive in such sentences as _Je suis allé chercher de l'eau_ or _Je suis monté sur le toit_ ?


 
Hi,
Read the explanation again.
verbe like "aller" or "monter" are ACTIVE, not passive.
"Je suis allé" : "I am ... in the state where I have gone."

To Sponge78 : 
This should answer your question : Nowadays, the French do not understand the sentence "je suis allé" like "I am  ... in the state where I have gone".
However, the  active meaning is still understood in noun phrases like "Une pomme tombée" (An apple that has fallen (from a tree), and the passive meaning of other verbs : "Une pomme à moitié mangée".


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## berndf

Fred_C gave the answer to your example with _Aller_.
 
_Monter_ has also a transitive use where the passé composé is consequently constructed with _avoir_:
_Il a monté l'escalier._
With intransitive uses of_ monter_ you can uses both _être_ and _avoir_. -> dictionnaire de l'academie française sous _monter_ *B: "le thermomètre a monté, est monté". Reading the explanations under *B, I wonder if _le thermomètre est monté_ wouldn't be better regarded as a passive present than as a passé compose?


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## Sponge78

Thanks to all for the replies so far 



Fred_C said:


> ...To Sponge78 :
> This should answer your question : Nowadays, the French do not understand the sentence "je suis allé" like "I am ... in the state where I have gone".


 
I see. So they would understand it like this:
"je suis allé" 
"I have gone"

Isn't this a bit confusing for the french? Essentially changing the meaning of être to avoir.

And what if someone speaks very slow and says:
"je suis.."

then the listener will be thinking "I am..", then the speaker says:
"..allé"

then the listener has to change their understanding of the previous words from "I am" to "I have".


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## Fred_C

Yes.
That seems cumbersome only if you are afraid of the French language :

Imagine someone saying "I have..."
His peer might think "What have you got?"
Then the speaker goes on... "been to London".


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## berndf

Sponge78 said:


> then the listener has to change their understanding of the previous words from "I am" to "I have".


Not really. To a French or German ear "I have gone" ("J'ai allé", [...]) sounds just as odd as "I am gone" for "I have gone" does to you. It is just a convention which auxiliary verb you use to construct the present perfect. There is nothing "natural" in using "to have". It is just the convention in English.


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## skyblue7

When the verbs transform to the past tense,,,

Je viens -> Je suis venu (venir verb)

Je cours -> Je ai couru (courir verb)

I think if there is any common rule for the verb past tense, 


'Je ai couru' should be like  'Je suis couru'.

But why for the verb 'couru',    Je ai.

But for the verb 'venu',     Je suis ? when they change into the past tense?


How people know that they would use 'suis' or 'ai'

when they change the verbs into the past tense?


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## flyingcabbage

There are *13 verbs *that use *être *in the past tense: *a**ller, arriver, descendre, entrer, monter, mourir, naître, partir, rester, retourner, sortir, tomber, venir*. (+ any that are compounds of these, eg. *devenir, revenir, rentrer*). 

Also,* every reflexive verb *(one with "se" in front of it) also uses être. *Se laver *- "_Je me suis lavé_"
You just have to learn them. All other verbs use avoir.

Oh, and make sure you use the apostrophe:*j'ai courru *(not je ai).


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## Seeda

Well, the similarity between _venir / partir / sortir / aller_ is they're all verbs of motion, but it's not a rule (for ex. we say _j'*ai* marché_, not _je suis marché_).
Only a minority of French verbs require the auxiliary _être_. You should just learn the list of them without considering a rule.


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