# aimé bien / bien aimé



## MelB

Sometimes I get confused about the use of “aimer”    

In the context of, let’s say, liking dogs since I was a child, 

would this sentence work?

«Les chiens sont des animaux, que puisque j’étais un enfant, j’ai toujours aimés bien. »

Or would «bien aimés» work better. 

Something like:  “Les chiens sont des animaux, que puisque j’étais un enfant, J’ai toujours bien aimés. » 

Is there a difference in what the two uses of “aimer” mean?

Do both of these constructions look ok, for saying I’ve liked dogs since I was a child?


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## elroy

I would suggest "bien aimé."

*Les chiens sont des animaux que j'ai (toujours) bien aimés depuis que j'étais enfant.* 

(Notice that "since" is "depuis que" in this case and not "puisque.")


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## MelB

Thanks.  I'm still wondering, though, what the difference is in the meaning of the two expressions.  How would you translate the two?  Are they same in meaning? 

I think "aimé bien" translates as "liked."

Is "bien aimé" stronger?

You're right on "depuis que."


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## zaby

You can't say "j'ai aimé bien".
The construction depends on the conjugation of 'aimer' :
_j'aime bien_
_j'aimais bien_
but for compound tense bien is between the auxiliary and the past participle:
_j'ai bien aimé_
_j'avais bien aimé_


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## geve

Yes, the adverb is always right after the conjugated verb => for passé composé, it is after the auxiliary (and before the participe passé)

Also, MelB, I would say "...depuis que *je suis* enfant"

And your idea of "bien aimé" being stronger, probably refers to "bien-aimé" used as a word = the loved one 
_> mon bien-aimé, sa bien-aimée..._sounds old but can work in a romantic situation


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## somody

Certain adverbs always go before the verb.  For example, its "bien aimé" and "vite couru" and "toujours fait", but it's "marché lentement".  A general rule is that if the adverb is long, it comes after the verb.  If it's short, it comes before the verb.


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## bongbang

geve said:
			
		

> Also, MelB, I would say "...depuis que *je suis* enfant"



Okay, I can sort of (though not quite) understand the use of the passé composé in "j'ai (toujours) bien aimés" but why the present tense for this when we're clearly talking about the past?


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## geve

bongbang said:
			
		

> Okay, I can sort of (though not quite) understand the use of the passé composé in "j'ai (toujours) bien aimés" but why the present tense for this when we're clearly talking about the past?


another tricky point... you need to use "depuis que" with the present for something that is not a punctual action
_> depuis que j'ai trouvé du travail = since I have found a job ("finding" a job is punctual => passé composé)_
But : 
_> depuis que j'ai un travail = since I have a job ("having" a job is a lasting action => présent)_

See there (§3)


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## bongbang

Thanks, geve. That's a very good site that you link to. In saying this, though, it doesn't exactly clear up my confusion:



> Depuis que is followed by the present tense if the action of the verb is continuing:
> 
> Il est devenu beaucoup plus indépendant depuis qu'il est étudiant
> 
> He's become much more independent since he's been a student
> 
> Depuis que je suis ici je n'ai vu personne
> 
> Since I've been here I've seen no-one



Why should that apply to our case when the speaker is no longer a child?


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## Benjy

because the action is still going on *now* the animals are still loved by the person who is speaking.

depuis trois ans j'ai peur des chiens. on m'a lâché un chien d'attaque qui m'a mordu grave et maintenant la peur ne me lâche plus!

so in the sentence i just made up the person has been scared of dogs for 3 years and is still scared of them. so "j'ai peur depuis 3 ans" which in english would be "i have been scared for 3 years" is left in the present. does that make any sense?


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## geve

bongbang said:
			
		

> Why should that apply to our case when the speaker is no longer a child?


Yes, but the speaker has been a child for a long time ! I admit that the difference is difficult to see... Maybe it would be easier if you ask yourself this question : is it something you did (find a job, start university) or is it something you are or were (a worker, a student, a child...)
> something you did => passé composé _(depuis que j'ai trouvé du travail, depuis qu'il a commencé l'université)_
> something you are => présent _(depuis que je travaille, depuis qu'il est étudiant)_

But when reading your first post, I think there is another confusion here : we would not say in the same sentence "j'ai toujours aimé" and "depuis que". Because if you say "toujours" you don't need to specify since when... 
_> J'ai toujours aimé les chiens. Je les aime depuis que je suis enfant._ 

I'm not sure I'm being very clear here...  Y a-t-il un autre français sur le forum ??


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## bongbang

Thanks, geve. I think you're being clearer than you give yourself credit for. And you're right, too, about my having another confusion. 

To be absolutely crystal-clear, then, can I rewrite MelB's original sentence thus:

_Les chiens sont des animaux que j'aime bien depuis que je suis enfant._

If yes, is it preferable to Elroy's version (with your modification)?


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## Gil

Dogs are animals.  We know it. Why say it?
My try:
J'aime les chiens depuis ma plus tendre enfance.


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## geve

> To be absolutely crystal-clear, then, can I rewrite MelB's original sentence thus:
> _Les chiens sont des animaux que j'aime bien depuis que je suis enfant._
> If yes, is it preferable to Elroy's version (with your modification)?


absolutely ! 

but I have to admit, Gil's got a point  :


> Dogs are animals. We know it. Why say it?


In French we don't use much this kind of 'tournure' (don't know the word in English, will make a thread on that...) and it seems unnecessarily long to express what you want to say
=> J'aime les chiens depuis que je suis enfant. Or Gil's suggestion, more 'poetic' !


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## bongbang

Thanks geve. Of course, Gil's got a point. But I'm on this thread for the grammar, not the translation. I think MelB is the same way.

That said, when I do start a thread myself, I usually am indeed looking for a translation.


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## MelB

Yes, now I understand.  My confusion was I had a text/grammar lesson that had, "j'aime bien" for I like (distinguishing from "j'aime," which is stronger.  But if I put it in the past tense, then I have to say, "j'ai bien aimé."  "Bien must follow the "ai."  I had a blank and didn't see that last night.  [Also, I sometimes mix up "puisque" with "depuis"].  I know "puisque" doesn't relate to time.    

And I like Gil's re-write:  "J'aime les chiens depuis ma plus tendre enfance."  It's very simple, using "depuis as a preposition.  What I had was too wordy, in using "dupuis que."  I do though want to say, "J'ai aimé les chiens [I have liked dogs] depuis ma plus tendre enfance.  I hope I can use past tense there, when I'm only using "depuis" as a prepositiion.  

Geve, you said:  "And your idea of "bien aimé" being stronger, probably refers to "bien-aimé" used as a word = the loved one"  Exactly.  But here, it would just mean "I have liked dogs." 

Now Geve, you said, Also, "MelB, I would say "...depuis que je suis enfant."
You used the present tense, since the action is continuing up until now.  The sentence then would be: "Les chiens sont des animaux, que depuis que je suis enfant, j’ai bien aimés»  I understand that!  Voila! You're an excellent teacher.   

The only sentence that grates my ear is the one from that link, Geve, that you passed on to "bongbang":  "Il est devenu beaucoup plus indépendant depuis qu'il est étudiant . . ."  What bothers me there is you're starting in the past tense and ending in the present.  A literal translation into English might be:  "He became more independant since he is a student."    Still, I think I understand, if the action is continuing from the past, we use the present tense, and we can translate the phrase as "since he has been a student."

And Gil/Geve, unlike bongbang, I'm not just on the thread for grammar.  I'm delighted with hearing "word choices," the best words to use, translation, etc.  So please don't hesitate to offer those for me also.


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## geve

> "J'ai aimé les chiens [I have liked dogs] depuis ma plus tendre enfance. I hope I can use past tense there, when I'm only using "depuis" as a prepositiion


 
Well… no  But it’s not really a question of grammar : why use the past, when you still love dogs ?



> "Les chiens sont des animaux, que depuis que je suis enfant, j’ai bien aimés» I understand that! Voila! You're an excellent teacher.


 
hmm, I’m afraid you might be over-complimenting me here  … (not that I don't like compliments !) Your sentence isn’t entirely correct… : 
"…que j’aime depuis que je suis enfant" (you use the present because of the reason mentioned above)
or
"…que j’ai toujours aimés" (the passé composé here used with "toujours" expresses a past fact continuing in the present)

_Oh do I admire non-French-natives who have to learn these one billion silly grammar rules… Keep the faith !!_




> The only sentence that grates my ear is the one from that link, Geve, that you passed on to "bongbang": "Il est devenu beaucoup plus indépendant depuis qu'il est étudiant . . ." What bothers me there is you're starting in the past tense and ending in the present. A literal translation into English might be: "He became more independant since he is a student." Still, I think I understand, if the action is continuing from the past, we use the present tense, and we can translate the phrase as "since he has been a student."


 Yes  ! “Il est devenu beaucoup plus indépendant” could also be said “il est beaucoup plus indépendant”


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## MelB

Geve, you have said, 

"Well… no  But it’s not really a question of grammar : why use the past, when you still love dogs?"

I'm using the passé composé to mean,"have liked."  In English that means from the past going up to the present.  It's one of the descriptions of the meaning of  "J'ai aimé" given in my book on French verbs . . . I have liked.  

It feels awkward to me to be in the present. 

Je marche, je regarde des arbres, et je vois une chien.  Maintenant, j'aime bien des chiens puisque je suis un enfant.  je vais proche et frotte le nez de ce chien. 

Maybe that's fine if I got used to it.  

In English, we would say, I walk, I look at trees, and I see a dog.  Now, I have liked dogs since I was a child.  I go up to it, rub its nose. 

Do you see how I've shifted tenses.  

In French, I can apparently write the section this way: 

Je marche, je regarde des arbres, et je vois une chien.  Maintenant, j'aime bien les chiens depuis mon enfance.  Je vais proche et frotte le nez de cet chien. 

Am I grammatically correct to write it like this, instead?

Je marche, je regarde des arbres, et je vois une chien.  Maintenant, j'ai bien aimé les chiens depuis mon enfance.  je vais proche et frotte le nez de cet chien. 

And geve, just focus on the part about the tense I use to describe liking dogs since I was a child (as there are probably a million other errors in my French sentence).    

Can I use "Maintenant, j'ai bien aimé les chiens depuis mon enfance."

Is it grammatcally correct in the context I've put it?  Would a french person write it that way.  Or would he/she just use the present tense with depuis (even when depuis is simply used as a preposition)?  

In other words:  "J'aime bien les chien depuis mon enfance."


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## xav

"since" has two different meanings : "puisque" and "depuis que". Here, it's the temporal one. To avoid the problem about choosing the tense of the verb after "since", I'd say, as you suggest "depuis l'enfance" - clear, that you speak of yours.

About the tense of the verb before "since", the equivalent here of the present perfect is the french présent : "que j'aime depuis l'enfance"
But I'd say too "que j'ai toujours aimés".


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## MelB

But I want to say, 

(1) J'ai bien aimé les chiens depuis l'enfance.

Geve says I should say, 

(2) "J'aime bien les chiens depuis l'enfance."

Is what she says the way I should write the sentence?  I have to choose one or the other.

I'm in the present tense.  

I walk, I see trees, a dog. [      ]

Now which is it, no. 1 or no. 2?  Are both correct grammatically?  Would a French person say it either way?


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## xav

Not exactly, I think

(1) means it has ended - the french passé composé is for past things, EXCEPT if you put "toujours", or "jamais" for negative sentences ; then it becomes the equivalent of the present perfect.

(2) is nearly correct

I'd say "J'ai toujours (bien) aimé les chiens" (still true now)
Or perhaps "Depuis l'enfance, j'ai toujours (bien) aimé les chiens"
Or "Depuis mon enfance, j'aime (bien) les chiens".
For me, I wouldn't put the "bien", which is understood anyway.


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## MelB

What's hard for me to understand is why, just changing "mon enfance" to "l'enfance" makes a difference?

With the one, I say:  "J'aime bien les chiens depuis mon enfance."

But with the other, I can say:

"J'ai bien aimé les chiens depuis l'enfance.


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## geve

Here are the correct forms :
 J'aime les chiens depuis que je suis enfant (= I like dogs, and I have liked them since I was a child)
  J'aime les chiens depuis mon enfance (= I like dogs, and I have liked them since my childhood)
  J'ai toujours aimé les chiens. (= I have always liked dogs)

 If you just say "j'ai aimé les chiens" (without "toujours"), since passé composé is for punctual actions in the past (imparfait is for continuing actions) it will mean that you liked the dogs you've just seen or you've seen once (in a show for example : "j'ai bien aimé les chiens du cirque Gruss")
 If you say "j'ai aimé les chiens depuis mon enfance", it would therefore mean "I liked the dogs I've just seen since my childhood" - not possible
 and you cannot use imparfait either "j'aimais bien les chiens" because it would mean that you used to like dogs but you don't anymore

Xav, would you confirm that ?


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## geve

MelB said:
			
		

> What's hard for me to understand is why, just changing "mon enfance" to "l'enfance" makes a difference?


no, the difference is with the word "toujours"


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## MelB

I guess the difference is Xav would be willing to use ''depuis" and "toujours" together (while Geve, you seemingly would not) and he would permit me  this.   

"Depuis l'enfance, j'ai toujours (bien) aimé les chiens"

or maybe, "j'ai toujours (bien) aimé les chiens depuis l'enfance."


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## xav

geve said:
			
		

> Here are the correct forms :
> J'aime les chiens depuis que je suis enfant (= I like dogs, and I have liked them since I was a child)
> J'aime les chiens depuis mon enfance (= I like dogs, and I have liked them since my childhood)
> J'ai toujours aimé les chiens. (= I have always liked dogs)
> 
> If you just say "j'ai aimé les chiens" (without "toujours"), since passé composé is for punctual actions in the past (imparfait is for continuing actions) it will mean that you liked the dogs you've just seen or you've seen once (in a show for example : "j'ai bien aimé les chiens du cirque Gruss")
> If you say "j'ai aimé les chiens depuis mon enfance", it would therefore mean "I liked the dogs I've just seen since my childhood" - not possible
> and you cannot use imparfait either "j'aimais bien les chiens" because it would mean that you used to like dogs but you don't anymore
> 
> Xav, would you confirm that ?


Oui, à un détail près : je pense qu'on peut dire 
"J'ai aimé les chiens" si cela a duré (même 40 ans !) à condition que ce soit terminé maintenant : "J'ai aimé les chiens, jusqu'au jour où j'ai été mordu". C'est plutôt le passé simple qui est réservé aux actions ponctuelles passées (le passé composé peut aussi prendre cette signification, mais a un champ plus large)
Donc, "J'ai aimé les chiens depuis mon enfance" serait possible - on attend l'explication : pourquoi est-ce terminé ?
"J'aimais (bien) les chiens" va dans le même sens, on attend un événement, mais cet amour n'est pas aussi nettement terminé qu'avec le passé composé :
"J'aimais les chiens, jusqu'au jour où j'ai été mordu - maintenant, je les aime moins" 

Do you agree, Geve ?


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## xav

MelB said:
			
		

> What's hard for me to understand is why, just changing "mon enfance" to "l'enfance" makes a difference?
> 
> With the one, I say: "J'aime bien les chiens depuis mon enfance."
> 
> But with the other, I can say:
> 
> "J'ai bien aimé les chiens depuis l'enfance.


Tout bien réfléchi, I think you can say both. "Depuis mon enfance" peut être un peu lourd, "depuis l'enfance" peut être ambigu (selon la disposition de la phrase, on peut être effleuré par
l'impression qu'il s'agit de l'enfance... des chiens)

So, just choose.


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## xav

MelB said:
			
		

> I guess the difference is Xav would be willing to use ''depuis" and "toujours" together (while Geve, you seemingly would not) and he would permit me  this.
> 
> "Depuis l'enfance, j'ai toujours (bien) aimé les chiens"
> 
> or maybe, "j'ai toujours (bien) aimé les chiens depuis l'enfance."


 
Oui oui, je confirme ! C'est parce que c'est depuis l'enfance, donc quasiment toute votre vie. On ne pourrait pas dire "Depuis l'année dernière, j'ai toujours pensé que..." 
Donc, le passé composé avec "toujours" n'est pas l'exact équivalent du present perfect - mais peut-être bien du present perfect avec "always" !


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## geve

No, no, MelB, I 'permit' you to use both "toujours" and "depuis" in the same sentence !! 
I just found it redundant... but I might be a bit fuddy-duddy here !

Et Xav a raison : Le passé composé est pour les actions brèves dans les passé ET pour des actions longues qui ont été interrompues (I think this has been discussed in another thread...)

Have to go now... avant de complètement mélanger l'anglais et le français  Bye !


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