# erga homines



## Aoyama

My knowledge of Latin being quite primitive ...
What is the meaning of "erga homines" ?
I thought it should be "erga hominem" (but no).


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## aviv chadash

erga goes with the accusative, as you rightly suggest. In the plural, homines is the nominative, vocative and accusative.


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## Aoyama

Right. But then, what is the meaning ?
"In front of everybody" ?


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## Hamlet2508

Aoyama said:


> Right. But then, what is the meaning ?
> "In front of everybody" ?



You wouldn't be referring to *benigni estote erga homines* ?
because this would simply mean
*be nice to people*

regards,hamlet


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## Aoyama

That's one translation (to people), thank you.
In fact "erga homines" appeared yesterday in the mouth of the lawyer of the French accountant who accused Pdt. Sarkozy of receiving illegal campaign funds. The lady had been questioned by police after (sic) "saying _erga homines_ that the President had received XX euros in cash". Ergo my question.
What's your opinion ?


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## Hamlet2508

Aoyama said:


> The lady had been questioned by police after (sic) "saying _erga homines_ that the President had received XX euros in cash". Ergo my question.
> What's your opinion ?



And the laywer never said _*erga omnes*_ , but *erga homines*?


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## Aoyama

Very good question. As I heard it on the radio, it could have very well been [erga] "omnes" (in front of all, "loud and clear" ?). The journalist didn't even understand it ...
But "erga homines" exists, you find references in many texts ...
Here, obviously one has to understand that "she proffered[at first] in front of/facing everybody accusations [to retract them later on, supposedly under pressure ...].


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## XiaoRoel

*Erga* en latín tiene un significado de 'en favor de', *nunca* *en 'contra de'* que en latín se expresa con _in + acusativo_ (cf. Cic. _in Verrem_). El uso moderno _erga aliquem_ ('contra alguien') en latín es un solecismo.


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## aviv chadash

Was thinking of erga omnes in terms of it’s legal usage. As for erga homines, I couldn’t find any reference to erga homines used as a legal term, or as a general saying such as ad nauseam; it may be in France, but the OP would know this better than me). Otherwise, I can’t understand why someone would throw in some Latin just for the sake of it. It’s possible the individual misused the term.



Aoyama said:


> As I heard it on the radio, it could have very well been [erga] "omnes" (in front of all, "loud and clear" ?). The journalist didn't even understand it …


 
I would agree and guess it meant ‘for all’ as in ‘for all to hear’, something like that. But of course, it’s just a guess and I would be interested in the opinons of others. As such, Xiao Roel, are you saying that it means 'for (in favour of) the people?':



XiaoRoel said:


> Erga en latín tiene un significado de 'en favor de', nunca en 'contra de' que en latín se expresa con in + acusativo (cf. Cic. in Verrem). El uso moderno erga aliquem ('contra alguien') en latín es un solecismo.


 
I’m also interested now!


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## Hamlet2508

It would help if there was a transcript.

Still, it does make more sense if one assumes it was *erga omnes* in the sense of *toward all*, what with a laywer having said it.


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## XiaoRoel

_Apud_ *Ernout*, DEL, los _gramáticos advierten de que *erga* tiene un uso benevolente_ o, en palabras de Ernout:


> Il s'accompagne de l'accusatif et signifie "dans la direction de", au sens local (rare, attesté à basse époque, mais sans doute  par reprise de l'usage ancien), et plus fréquemment "à l'égard de, envers" (sens classique et fréquent, qui s'est conservé dans toute la latinité). Dans la langue de Plaute, *erga* est le plus souvent postposé au mot qu'il qualifie, comme *ergo*… Mais, …chez Cicéron, *erga* précéde toujours le mot qu'il détermine. Les grammaires latins enseignent qu'*erga* s'emploie seulement avec l'idée de bienveillance, au rebours de *in*, qui marque une idée d'hostilité.


Es un caso parecido al de *uersus* en el sentido de *contra* en inglés actual.


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## Aoyama

> signifie "dans la direction de",


which is what Hamlet is saying


> it does make more sense if one assumes it was *erga omnes* in the sense of *toward all*


and which is what I had in mind in my post #7.
Something like *urbi et orbi *(_mutatis mutandis..._).


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## Ben Jamin

Aoyama said:


> Very good question. As I heard it on the radio, it could have very well been [erga] "omnes" (in front of all, "loud and clear" ?). The journalist didn't even understand it ...
> But "erga homines" exists, you find references in many texts ...
> Here, obviously one has to understand that "she proffered[at first] in front of/facing everybody accusations [to retract them later on, supposedly under pressure ...].


 What language did the lawyer speak? If French, then the "h" would most probably not be pronounced.


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## Aoyama

That is very true, so the hypothesis that it is/was *omnes* instead of *homines *is very possible (I don't even think that "h" as in "home" exists/existed in Latin, as there is no "h" in Italian).
But still, once again, both *erga homines* and *erga omnes *exist, so ...


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## aviv chadash

There is a 'h' in Latin (Classical); as you say, it's not voiced in Italian.
As to whether its erga homines or erga omnes, without a transcript, I don't think your going to know!
I think you can get a transcript if you go to the Wiki article on Sarkozy, go to controversies, and then go to the sources for the citations concerning the case. But I'm not absolutely sure, it's in French, and I can't navigate a website in French! Alternatively, does the radio station have a website? You can usually find old programs on there.
Good luck.


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## Aoyama

The radio station in question is BFM. It has a web site, but the broadcast was just a kind of daily debate on current affairs. I don't think they keep a record of everything (but they might). But be it as it may, I take both possibilities as  ... possible.
Erga homines : in front of (all) men/everybody
Erga omnes : in front of everybody


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## Hamlet2508

Went there to have a look and found out that apparently a preliminary investigation into the allegations of Miss Thibout has been opened.

So this would favour "erga omnes".

I find I'm getting rather fond of this particular post.


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## Aoyama

> apparently a preliminary investigation into the allegations of Miss Thibout has been opened


absolutely, but that doesn't affect "omnes" or "homines".
The problem with her (or with the related matter) is that she has made allegations "erga homines/omnes" about giving 150.000 E in cash as illegal campaign funds (allegations which started the whole shebang), to retract most of them later on, when questioned by police (under pressure, or because she had lied ?).
But once again, I don't think it makes much difference (homines/omnes) but I am pretty sure I heard "homines". But then, the lawyer may be a bad latinist (or an extremely good one) ...


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