# 아무리.....-도 vs 아무리....-지만



## Flooooooooor

In a previous post, some forum members kindly helped me to understand this dialogue:

A: *아무리 잔칫날이라지만* 동네 시끄럽게 난장판을 치면 어떡합니까?​B: 죄송합니다. 조용히 하겠습니다.​
This is one of the first times I have seen a clause with the structure *아무리 ...지만* -- in my experience people often use *아무리 *with *-도 *(ex. *아무리 애써도* 소용이 없었다). While* -도* and *-지만* are similar, I wonder if the nuance reads differently to native speakers.

Looking online, I found a few more examples:

*아무리 교활한 놈들이라지만* 눈 밑으로 굴을 파 가며 접근해 오리라곤 믿어지지 않는다. (From 네이버 국어자선)​*아무리 젊다지만*···, 목숨 걸고 고공크레인에 매달린 남성 (From this article)​*아무리 친구지만*...알베스 ''메시의 코파 비난, 분명한 잘못이다" (From this article)​또 다른 시청자는 "*아무리 드라마지만* 현실을 잘 알아보고 그에 근거해서 만들어 달라. 학교생활이나 학생들 실제 모습, 가장 민감한 입시 부분까지 너무 심하게 왜곡되어 있다. 현재 고등학생들이 보고 납득할만한 내용이길 바란다"고 적었다. (From this article)​
I have four questions about this grammar use:

1. In the examples I have found, I don't feel the hypothetical sense that certainly can come with *아무리 ...-도*. (ex. *아무리 애써도* 소용이 없겠다 I think has a hypothetical sense -- someone could say this before anybody has actually begun exerting effort, right?) In fact, all of the clauses with *-지만* seem to acknowledge that they are accurately describing reality as it is NOW. Am I right about this in general?

2. Perhaps related to #1....In all of these cases I get a sense that the speaker has a claim X that they wish to make, and that they use *아무리 Y지만* to concede that the nature of Y makes it at least somewhat plausible to believe (not X). I don't get a sense of that rhetorical appeal, a sense that the speaker anticipates some skepticism from an audience, in a typical use of *아무리 ...-도*:

"However much you/we/I say it is a big feast (_which, sure, makes it harder for me to ask you to be quiet since how can you make a feast quiet?_)_, _what am I supposed to do if the neighborhood is in this much of a ruckus?"​"However much they are friends _(which, sure, makes it harder to believe that one would criticize the other_), one criticized the other."​"However much it is just a TV drama (_which, sure, makes it harder to demand that it must be very realistic_)_, _please make it more based on the realities of students' lives."​
Native speakers, what are your thoughts on this? Am I close to how you interpret it?

3. In my brief look for examples of *아무리 ...지만*, I came across many examples that used a quotative* -다* or *-라* before the *-지만* (젊*다*지만, 놈들*이라*지만, 잔치*라*지만). Is there any particular reason it seems that these are used very often together in this type of grammar structure, and if so, is this related to my thoughts on #2? Is it used here to add a sense of someone (either the speaker or the audience) _saying _a fact out loud to add a sense of acknowledging or conceding a point?

4. Finally, and I apologize for what seems like a translation request -- what exactly is the first example sentence saying? (*아무리 *교활한 놈들이라*지만*...). Try as I might, and despite thinking I know each word in the sentence, I cannot make any sense of it grammatically or semantically -- so poor is my understanding that I cannot even come up with a plausible _guess. _Is the subject of "눈 밑으로 굴을 파 가며 접근해" the "교활한 놈들"? What exactly is the speaker finding difficult to believe?

Thank you for any perspective on these questions!


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## pcy0308

Hello Flooooooooor,
"아무리 ...지만" can be translated as *despite/despite the fact that*, *although/even though/though, *and depending on some contexts, *while*, just as you've suggested. Quite literally, it can be translated as this following phrase: *as [adjective] as ~ may be...*

Take a look at one of your own examples here:
*아무리 교활한 놈들이라지만* 눈 밑으로 굴을 파 가며 접근해 오리라곤 믿어지지 않는다. 
= *As cunning as they may be*, the idea that they dig their way underground just to reach us is hard to believe.
*= As cunning as they may be*, I find it hard to believe that they will dig their way just to reach here.
*아무리 젊다지만*···, 목숨 걸고 고공크레인에 매달린 남성
= *As young (and active) as they may be*...(it is just too reckless, dangerous and stupid of these youngsters to be) dangling on a crane
*아무리 친구지만*...알베스 ''메시의 코파 비난, 분명한 잘못이다"
= *Despite being friends/on good terms*, Alves (is critical of) "Messi's disapproving comment on Copa America (is still wrong)"
"*아무리 드라마지만* 현실을 잘 알아보고 그에 근거해서 만들어 달라. 학교생활이나 학생들 실제 모습, 가장 민감한 입시 부분까지 너무 심하게 왜곡되어 있다. 
="*In spite of being a fiction/drama*, it still (excessively) distorts the reality to the point where even the simplest and the most sensitive subjects are misrepresented entirely."

1. "아무리 ...지만" is hardly implying anything hypothetical; rather, it is used to state a fact, an empirical observation that does not leave much room for discussion. In your examples, it is quite obvious that whoever is dangling on a crane is young; Messi and Alves are on good terms, and it is hard to argue otherwise; the TV program in question is a soap opera, and no one would dispute this fact.

2. Your interpretation is correct and very reasonable, but keep in mind that it is not just skepticism or disbelief that the expression is underlining. *"아무리 ...지만"* could be emphasizing other aspects and nuances, such as a subtle or outright contradiction, contrast, paradox, etc. That is why it could simply be translated as *although *or *despite*. "*Despite being friends/on good terms*, Alves is still criticized of Messi's disapproving commment on Copa America", "(*Though *I understand that you guys are having a party and all,) how can you explain this excessive noise that is disrupting the entire neighborhood?", "*In spite of being a fiction/drama*, it still (excessively) distorts the reality to the point where even the simplest and the most sensitive subjects are completely misrepresented." In all those examples, rather than one's skepticism or disbelief, it is respectively a contradiction or a straightforward criticism (of some actions that have crossed the line) that is underlined through the use of *"아무리 ...지만"*.

3. Just as you said, it adds a sense of declaration, observation of a fact. That being said, it does not mean using "아무리 잔치지만," "아무리 젊지만", "아무리 친구지만", "아무리 드라마지만" (without the particles "다" or "라") would be grammatically wrong. It is just more common to see this specific expression used with the aforementioned particles to add that sense of declaration and observation, which in turn renders the entire sentence more credible and reasonable.

4. *아무리 교활한 놈들이라지만* 눈 밑으로 굴을 파 가며 접근해 오리라곤 믿어지지 않는다. 
= *As cunning as they may be*, the idea that they dig their way underground just to reach us is hard to believe.
*= As cunning as they may be*, I find it hard to believe that they will dig their way underground just to approach us/reach here.
The main verb of the sentence is "믿어지지 않는다", and it is plausible to assume that whoever is having a hard time believing (the idea that these cunning people/things may dig their way underground just to approach a certain place) is the speaker him/herself. In other words, you could definitely say that the subject *"I"* is omitted in this sentence. Another possible interpretation may be that *"the idea that they dig their way underground just to reach us"* is the subject since the sentence is written in what seems like a passive voice. Hope this helps.


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## Flooooooooor

Hi pcy0308, and thank you for your very detailed feedback! I think I now have a solid understanding of the nuance here and will keep an eye out for more use cases in the future.

And thank you for your help on that final question's sentence. I had had difficulty parsing "오리라곤" and was struggling unsuccessfully to see it as a use of 오리+ -라고 (as in "saying that it is a duck") instead of 오 + -리라고 ("the idea that they would come"). One very quick foll/ow-up question (which I can move to a new thread if moderators think a good idea): is there only one reasonable interpretation of "눈" in this sentence? I can read it plausibly as both:

1. "As cunning as they may be, the idea that they dig their way *beneath where their eyes are* (i.e. underground) just to reach us is hard to believe."; and​2. "As cunning as they may be, the idea that they dig their way* beneath the snow* (i.e. underground) just to reach us is hard to believe."​
...but am not sure if a native speaker would prefer only one meaning. Thank you again!


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## pcy0308

Hi Flooooooooor,
(My bad! I did not even notice the word, "눈" there. ) Definitely your second translation is the right choice. "눈 밑으로" may seem like it could be used to describe actions done stealthily and secretly ("beneath where one's eyes are"), it just sounds unnatural in this case. If you'd like to emphasize on such cautious, stealthy aspect of an action, "눈을 피해서", which literally is translated as "avoiding one's eyes (attention/field of vision)" would be a good choice. Hope this clarifies.


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## Flooooooooor

Hi pcy0308, 

Yes, this clarifies exactly what I needed to know! It is always amusing that as a foreign language student I sometimes get a little _too_ creative to find meaning in a sentence and come up with some unnatural interpretations. This sentence makes perfect sense to me now -- I can even picture myself among whatever characters are hiding underground from the 교활한 놈들 -- and to boot I have learned a nice idiomatic phrase "눈을 피하다". Thank you once again!


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## pcy0308

Hi Flooooooooor,
I find myself in the same boat in fact.  Getting way too creative and imaginative when stumbling upon new phrasal expressions and idioms(!) I am right there with you! I also believe such personal and "unnatural interpretations" pave way to a better understanding of not only the literal definitions and usage of such expressions but also those very cultural, customary, and genuine aspects that each different language has. All of your interpretation were quite intriguing and thought-provoking. I'd go as far as to say that they were brave and original insights into how different phrases and words can be perceived by both native speakers and Korean as a second language students. I have no doubt your inquisitive and analytical interpretations are doing all the other users a favor. "*시선을 피해서* (시선을 피하다)" is another commonly used alternative.


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## Flooooooooor

Hi pcy0308,

Thank you for these words of encouragement, and for the extra Korean tip. I couldn't agree with you more that sometimes it is what ultimately prove to be the "wrong" interpretations of language that make for effective (and fun!) studying. I will certainly keep my questions coming!


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