# Shall I / Shall we



## Txinarro

Hi,
As far as I know, the following sentences are commonly used in Britain but I would like to know whether they are common  in the USA. If not, could you tell me how you would say them? 

You look hot, shall I open the window?
Shall we dance?
It´s late, shall we go?

Thanks in advance.


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## INFOJACK

You could, but I can assure you that you won't get very far with that shall I open the window line. That's just lame.


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## inib

INFOJACK said:


> You could, but I can assure you that you won't get very far with that shall I open the window line. That's just lame.


I don't think your answer was very helpful, Jack. As Txinarro says, the "window" example is perfectly normal in BE, and I'm as curious as he is to know how you'd say that in an everyday conversational, familiar way. 
_Would you like me to open the window?, _maybe? But that sounds much more polite to me than a plain "Shall I open the window?"
Edit: Can any other Americans tell us how you'd avoid the "shall" in a question like this?


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## CarolinaGuy

From an AE perspective, the sentences as written are perfectly correct, but the word "shall" is seldom used here, and sounds somewhat formal. In everyday conversation you would more likely hear:

You look hot, would you like (for) me to open the window?
Would you like to dance?
It's late. Would you like to go?

I'm sure others will offer other alternatives.


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## gengo

inib said:


> I don't think your answer was very helpful, Jack.



Inib, I'm sure that what Jack meant was that this sounds like a lame pickup line used at a bar.  On the other hand, I'm sure that in the sentence given by Txinarro, no such meaning of "hot" was intended, and the literal meaning was instead intended (Parece que tienes calor.  ¿Te abro la ventana?).

Also, I'm rather shocked that CarolinaGuy thinks that "shall" sounds unnatural in these sentences, as they sound perfect to my ear.  They are all exactly how I would say them (although his versions also sound natural to me).


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## CarolinaGuy

gengo, I don't think "shall" sound unnatural, and I might very well say those sentences with "shall". But I do think it sounds rather formal and I don't think many people in the U.S. under the age of 50 would use the word "shall". Do you?


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## gengo

The second one (Shall we dance?) is indeed a bit formal, but the others sound perfectly normal to me.  When I am asking for permission or agreement, I use shall in such questions.  But then, I'm over 50...


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## CarolinaGuy

Entendido. Tengo 67 años. Mi hija, la profesora, nunca diría "shall".


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## gengo

CarolinaGuy said:


> Entendido. Tengo 67 años. Mi hija, la profesora, nunca diría "shall".



Interesante.  Tendré que escuchar cuidadosamente a mis hijos (12 y 10) para ver qué dicen.


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## inib

Thanks for your post #5, gengo. I had completely missed the double meaning of Txinarro's "window" sentence, so my apologies to Infojack too. However, I agree that the OP probably intended the literal meaning.
It's not the first time that I've heard that Americans sometimes find the use of "shall" overformal/stiff/antiquated for some situations, so my question was genuine.
But, from a British point of view, "shall" is more to the point, and "would you like me to..." sounds like you are speaking rather carefully.


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## ribran

Hi, Inib.

I would say our normal solution is to substitute "should" for "shall." That being said, I don't find "shall" especially formal in questions. I think what we find stiff/antiquated is the whole shall/will paradigm, which seems to be natural to most English English* speakers.

*I've always wished there were a more elegant way of describing the form of English spoken in England. Spanish has Peninsular Spanish, Portuguese has Continental Portuguese, so what could the English equivalent be?


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## Giorgio Spizzi

British English, what else? 

GS


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## ribran

No, I'm talking about English as spoken in *England*​, not the United Kingdom as a whole.


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## FromPA

I'm over 50 and I've never used "shall" in my entire life except in writing contracts, and I've never heard anyone else (in the US) use it as part of normal, everyday speech.  If someone from the US were to ask me, "Shall I open the window?"  I would assume they were trying to be humorous.  So I'm very surprised by the AE posters who say that it doesn't seem out of the ordinary to them in AE usage.


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## inib

ribran said:


> Hi, Inib.
> 
> I would say our normal solution is to substitute "should" for "shall." That being said, I don't find "shall" especially formal in questions. I think what we find stiff/antiquated is the whole shall/will paradigm, which seems to be natural to most English English* speakers.
> 
> *I've always wished there were a more elegant way of describing the form of English spoken in England. Spanish has Peninsular Spanish, Portuguese has Continental Portuguese, so what could the English equivalent be?


Thanks, Ribran for your suggestion of "should". You lot find that less formal than "shall" in the situation given? Some would consider (and some would deny) that "should" is (or works as) the conditional of "shall". So, to me, "Should" just sounds more fancy than "shall". 
In reply to your query, I think I agree with Giogio's post #12 (the other one was deleted before I could see it). "British English" seems a fairly reasonable term to me when referring to *grammar*, because I don't think there are great differences between the English ("from England") with the Welsh or Scottish usages, and maybe just a few negligible ones with Irish English. (Accents would be a different question, of course).
It's been nice to hear from you again. I've missed you recently.


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## grahamcracker

In the United States, some people would use "shall" in the sentence but most would not. It is not that unusual and I cannot think of a reason why it would be viewed as "unnatural" except in some subdialects of English.


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## KeepinOn

In my opinion, the way that "shall" and "should" are produced in ordinary speech they often sound pretty much the same. They often end up sounding something like "sh + schwa" and the schwa may be produced more like an "ae" or "u". I think that may be why some people may interpret "shall we go now" as "should we go now." Having said that, I'm sure there is some dialectal and register variation related to the use of "shall."


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## FromPA

grahamcracker said:


> In the United States, some people would use "shall" in the sentence but most would not. It is not that unusual and I cannot think of a reason why it would be viewed as "unnatural" except in some subdialects of English.



It's not unnatural; it's just unamerican.


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## Istriano

In the music video for her song BLOW, Ke$ha (a singer from California) asks her date: _Shall we dance?_ And he replies: _Let's!_. 
So, I don't think _shall _is that uncommon in many parts of the USA, in this particular case: _an offer. Shall we dance _is shorter than _Would you like to dance with me?_


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## FromPA

Istriano said:


> In the music video for her song BLOW, Ke$ha (a singer from California) asks her date: _Shall we dance?_ And he replies: _Let's!_.



That's a famous song title from the musical "the King and I," the story of an English woman in Siam.  It's practically a set phrase, and although I haven't seen the video, I'd bet the intention was to feign formality.


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## sound shift

"Shall we dance?" sounds a bit old-fashioned over here too. Some might use it - in order to sound traditional/formal. This doesn't mean that the expression is formal in itself: We use "shall" to seek assent all the time over here and in all types of situation, many of them banal and informal, eg "Shall I turn the heat down?" I couldn't get through the day without using "shall" in this way.


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## FromPA

Istriano said:


> In the music video for her song BLOW, Ke$ha (a singer from California) asks her date: _Shall we dance?_ And he replies: _Let's!_.
> So, I don't think _shall _is that uncommon in many parts of the USA, in this particular case: _an offer. Shall we dance _is shorter than _Would you like to dance with me?_


 
I just watched the video, and the interlocutors are dressed in very formal attire at a very strange formal event.  The dialogue seems consistent with a surreal, staged formal event - it is attempting to be very formal.  Only hoity-toity characters in movies, plays and bizarre music videos speak that way.


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## grahamcracker

FromPA said:


> It's not unnatural; it's just unamerican.


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## ribran

inib said:


> Thanks, Ribran for your suggestion of "should". You lot find that less formal than "shall" in the situation given? Some would consider (and some would deny) that "should" is (or works as) the conditional of "shall". So, to me, "Should" just sounds more fancy than "shall".


I guess it really does depend on what you're used to. 



inib said:


> In reply to your query, I think I agree with Giogio's post #12 (the other one was deleted before I could see it). "British English" seems a fairly reasonable term to me when referring to *grammar*, because I don't think there are great differences between the English ("from England") with the Welsh or Scottish usages, and maybe just a few negligible ones with Irish English. (Accents would be a different question, of course).
> It's been nice to hear from you again. I've missed you recently.


Normally, I find "British English" sufficient, but I thought this was one area where there were some notable differences between the countries' varieties. Is that not the case?


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## irish223

I'm a pretty common midwesterner, and I use 'shall'. I do use 'should' more often, but I also use 'shall'.


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## roxcyn

Hi everyone!  We do use "shall" in American English, but it's in formal situations.  Maybe we're with business partners, at a dance or at a fancy dinner---you may hear "shall" being used.  It's a valid construction in English, but we don't use it as much as our British neighbors.  

You look hot, could/can/should/may I open the window?  
May/Can/Could we dance?  I'd probably use "shall" in this case because it sounds more polite, but I'd be more likely to go with the other options I wrote. 
It's late, can/may/could we go?


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## sound shift

ribran said:


> I would say our normal solution is to substitute "should" for "shall."


My usage sometimes mirrors yours, ribran, but not here. If someone said to me "It's a bit hot in here", I could not respond with "*Should* I turn the heat down?" if I wanted to offer to turn the heat down (which I now realise is not quite the same as seeking _assent _as per the title of this thread, but anyway ....)


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## ribran

sound shift said:


> My usage sometimes mirrors yours, ribran, but not here. If someone said to me "It's a bit hot in here", I could not respond with "*Should* I turn the heat down?" if I wanted to offer to turn the heat down (which I now realise is not quite the same as seeking _assent _as per the title of this thread, but anyway ....)



Hi, sound shift.

We don't always use _should _instead of _shall_. That's just the general tendency. I could easily use _shall_​ in that example.


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## Spug

CarolinaGuy said:


> ...I do think it sounds rather formal and I don't think many people in the U.S. under the age of 50 would use the word "shall". Do you?



No, absolutely not. _Shall _had fallen into disuse when I was young (I'm 58). I still have an English grammar textbook from high school, and it notes that _shall_, even in the 1960s, was considered formal/pedantic, and was falling out of use. _Will _replaced _shall _in everyday usage, and we haven't looked back.

With the exception of a few set phrases, such as _Shall we?_ (basically, "Should we go?"), the use of _shall _in the US today sounds pretty affected to me.


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## gengo

FromPA said:


> It's not unnatural; it's just un-American.



Whoa there, fella!  Let's not get into a debate about whose English is more American.  I consider my English as fully American as anyone's, and I use "shall" often.  Let me stress, though, that I am talking about the context of this thread, namely, interrogative sentences.  I would never say "I shall try my best," because I agree that such constructions are not used in modern American English.  However, I and pretty much all the people I know, who come from many parts of the US, do indeed say things like "Shall we go now?"  Of course, there are also other ways to say this, but it does not sound stiff, unnatural, or un-American in any way.  I hear it in movies and on TV, read it in books, newspapers, and magazines, and read it in forums online, etc.  There really is just no question that this use of "shall" is still alive in the US.


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## Txinarro

Thanks everybody. Your information was very helpful.


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## La MexUS

All three sentences are correct and accepted in the US.  It would be considered proper English.


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## Mexico RV'er

KeepinOn said:


> In my opinion, the way that "shall" and "should" are produced in ordinary speech they often sound pretty much the same. They often end up sounding something like "sh + schwa" and the schwa may be produced more like an "ae" or "u". I think that may be why some people may interpret "shall we go now" as "should we go now." Having said that, I'm sure there is some dialectal and register variation related to the use of "shall."



I disagree. They sound nothing alike to me. I don't hear anything resembling "sh + schwa" in either word. I'm curious. What part of the US are you from?

Also, I do use "shall" sometimes in the examples given by the OP.


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## ribran

Mexico RV'er said:


> I disagree. They sound nothing alike to me. I don't hear anything resembling "sh + schwa" in either word. I'm curious. What part of the US are you from?
> 
> Also, I do use "shall" sometimes in the examples given by the OP.



When I'm speaking at a normal speed, "shall" usually comes out as _something like_ "shull."


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## Mexico RV'er

ribran said:


> When I'm speaking at a normal speed, "shall" usually comes out as _something like_ "shull."



Interesting.  I have been sitting here practicing out loud trying to get that sound, and it just doesn't work for me. I do only use "shall" interrogatively, so maybe that makes a difference. I would never use it in the affirmative.


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## L'Inconnu

Txinarro said:


> Hi,
> As far as I know, the following sentences are commonly used in Britain but I would like to know whether they are common  in the USA. If not, could you tell me how you would say them?
> 
> You look hot, shall I open the window?
> Shall we dance?
> It´s late, shall we go?
> 
> Thanks in advance.



_Very_ Polite (and acceptable): "Would you like it if I opened the window?"
Normal: "Do you want me to open the window?"

Polite: "Would you like to dance?"
Normal: "Do you want to dance?"

Polite: It's getting late. :Would you like to go now?"
Normal: It's getting late. Do you want to go now?"

So, <would you like> goes with polite phrases, which is perfectly acceptable for Americans, and American women _are_ sensitive to these subtle distinctions. Whereas, <do you want> is normal day to day usage. 

As for <shall>, it looks like a regional difference to me. The guy on West Coast thinks it sounds natural, but the guys on the East Coast (me) think it sounds silly. And, the Texans appear to fall somewhere between the two extremes.


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## KeepinOn

Mexico RV'er said:


> I disagree. They sound nothing alike to me. I don't hear anything resembling "sh + schwa" in either word. I'm curious. What part of the US are you from?
> 
> Also, I do use "shall" sometimes in the examples given by the OP.


If it were possible to upload short sound files, I might record myself saying that so you could hear it. I'm from the southwest. What part of the US are you from? By the way, sorry for the 8 year delay in my reply.


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## KalAlbè

The only time I use shall is in the set phrase "Shall we?", but this is, of course, only in formal contexts.


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## Forero

For me, "Shall I open the window?" and "It´s late, shall we go?" are perfectly natural, but "Shall we dance?" does sound just a little bit formal / foreign.


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