# одолжил ты меня!



## William Stein

Hi everybody,

There are a couple sentences I can't figure out at all here (http://www.magister.msk.ru/library/dostoevs/dostf04.htm):

The narrator asks his alcoholic friend why he doesn't get a job. Just joking, he says "Why don't you learn to be a tailor so you can sew up your terrible coat?". The friend takes him literally and takes out a needle but his hands are trembling and he can't thread the needle. Then the narrator says:

— Ну, Емеля, одолжил ты меня! было б при людях, так голову срезал бы! Да ведь я тебе, простому такому человеку, на смех, в укору сказал... Уж ступай, бог с тобой, от греха! сиди так, да срамного дела не делай, по лестницам не ночуй, меня не срами!..

I don't understand the meaning of  одолжил ты меня. Also in the next sentence, does it mean "I would have cut my head off with shame" or "I would have cut your head off'? (which seems unnecessarily brutal unless it's just a common expression).


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## Drink

It think this is definition #2 at Викисловарь: "(_устаревшее_) оказав какую-либо услугу, вызвать у кого-либо чувство признательности, благодарности, желание ответить услугой", meaning "to make someone feel indebted by doing them a favor". I am not sure what he means about cutting his head off.


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## William Stein

Drink said:


> It think this is definition #2 at Викисловарь: "(_устаревшее_) оказав какую-либо услугу, вызвать у кого-либо чувство признательности, благодарности, желание ответить услугой", meaning "to make someone feel indebted by doing them a favor". I am not sure what he means about cutting his head off.



Hi Drink. So it means "Now you've made me feel guilty" = now I owe you something because I forced you to make a fool of yourself?


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## Maroseika

William Stein said:


> Also in the next sentence, does it mean "I would have cut my head off with shame" or "I would have cut your head off'? (which seems unnecessarily brutal unless it's just a common expression).



I think he means his own head: he would have been so ashamed, just would have burnt with shame, if someone heard his joke.


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## William Stein

Hi Maroseika,

That's what I think, too, but I found some bilingual German-Russian version that says; "I would have torn your head off!" (maybe an example of cultural bias  For  Ну, Емеля, одолжил ты меня!, it says "Nu, Jemelj'sa, du bewährst dich!" = you are proving your worth! Do you think that's okay?


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## Drink

William Stein said:


> Hi Drink. So it means "Now you've made me feel guilty" = now I owe you something because I forced you to make a fool of yourself?



Yeah I think so.

I just realized I lost track of who was talking, which makes the head part make a little more sense to me and I would say that your first option of "I would have cut my head off with shame" is probably the case.


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## Drink

William Stein said:


> Hi Maroseika,
> 
> That's what I think, too, but I found some bilingual German-Russian version that says; "I would have torn your head off!" (maybe an example of cultural bias  For  Ну, Емеля, одолжил ты меня!, it says "Nu, Jemelj'sa, du bewährst dich!" = you are proving your worth! Do you think that's okay?



It could also just be a bad translation.


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## Maroseika

William Stein said:


> That's what I think, too, but I found some bilingual German-Russian version that says; "I would have torn your head off!" (maybe an example of cultural bias  For  Ну, Емеля, одолжил ты меня!, it says "Nu, Jemelj'sa, du bewährst dich!" = you are proving your worth! Do you think that's okay?



I think this is wrong - both things.


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## William Stein

Maroseika said:


> I think this is wrong - both things.



Okay, thanks Drink and Maroseika! I guess this proves that nobody should try to translate Doestoevsky without consulting with native linguists.


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## Colora

Hi William Stein! I would describe this situation as if I obligated to you since you did a favor for me.  http://www.classes.ru/all-russian/russian-dictionary-Ushakov-term-38691.htm *3.* _кого-что чем._ Оказав услугу, обязать благодарностью (_·устар._; теперь _·шутл._ ирон.). «Вы еще недавно его одолжили.» Достоевский. «- Чуть над тобой не заплакал я, бедная! Вот одолжил бы! ...» Некрасов. Исполнением просьбы вы меня очень одолжите.


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## Enquiring Mind

I think I'd say (in this particular context) "I'm much obliged to you", or maybe "I owe you a debt of gratitude".


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## William Stein

Enquiring Mind said:


> I think I'd say (in this particular context) "I'm much obliged to you", or maybe "I owe you a debt of gratitude".



Hi Colora and Enquiring Mind,

It's true that the narrator "owes something to the alcoholic" in the figurative sense, but the problem is that the alcoholic didn't really do any kind of favor to the narrator, he just fell into his trap and made a fool of himself (when the narrator asked him "Why don't you learn how to be a tailor and fix your coat!" he took it literally and made a pathetic attempt to thread a needle).

I mean there's no reason why the narrator should feel any kind of gratitude towards the alcoholic, it's more like a sense of guilt or shame. Maybe: "How can I ever make it up to you?" would work. Or maybe?: "I owe you an apology"


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## Colora

Hi! I reread this passage in Dostoevski's book. There is no question that the narrator feels for that guy, he wants him to get back on his feet. And, at the same time he's kind of sarcastic and harsh with Emelian during that conversation. 
I want to show you my attempt to translate these sentences: Oh my, Emelian, you've really made me feel responsible for what just happened! If anything like that happened in front of people, I would cut your head off!


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## William Stein

Colora said:


> Hi! I reread this passage in Dostoevski's book. There is no question that the narrator feels for that guy, he wants him to get back on his feet. And, at the same time he's kind of sarcastic and harsh with Emelian during that conversation.
> I want to show you my attempt to translate these sentences: Oh my, Emelian, you've really made me feel responsible for what just happened! If anything like that happened in front of people, I would cut your head off!



I like "you've really made me feel responsible for what just happened!" (or more vulgarly, "I feel like such a schmuck!"), but I'm still not sure about whose head is getting cut off  He swings back and forth emotionally so much it's hard to tell what's going on. Anyway, thanks for making such a big effort to help me out, it's a very good lesson for me. I haven't studied Russian in years and don't get any feedback from any teachers.


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## Colora

...было бы при людях, так голову (и) срезал бы! Так голову (башку (colloq.)) и оторвал бы!
 Declaration of beheading is a hypothetical Russian threat of violence in order to punish someone if his/or her actions do not meet expectations or when someone misbehave. This threat usually remains in theory that will never come true, somehow people are doing this on purpose to discipline or just upset you. 
I think that these words "...было бы при людях, так голову срезал бы!" were spoken to Emelya by the narrator .  
Russians usually don't cut they own heads over the embarrassment,  , they have another common suicidal phrasings which can express deep emotions. 
I'd like to tell you one thing-your translations are very proficient, keep going!


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## Maroseika

I think it is extremely unlikely that he meant Emelya's head. It looks like a cognate of the word срезать (шуткой, метким словом) - to destroy somebody with a word.
If the narrator is so ashamed (sincerely ashamed!), why would he cut the head off the one who has ashamed him?


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## blind pew

Dals dictionary says *срезать голову* means to shame smb. *Голова* here is not a part of body, but mind, brains. So *срезать кому-то голову* means to say somebody not to try  to be  clever ,  not to  get smart with or not to show off.
*Одолжить кого-то*  imho means here to give smb pleasure (ironically).
 So I understand the whole passage 
*"Ну, Емеля, одолжил ты меня! было б при людях, так голову срезал бы!**"*
as follows:
Well, Emelya, you did make me laugh <with your monkey-business>. If we were in public , I would shame you.


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## Maroseika

blind pew said:


> So I would translate the whole passage
> *"Ну, Емеля, одолжил ты меня! было б при людях, так голову срезал бы!**"*
> as follows:
> Well, Emelya, you did make me laugh <with your monkey-business>. If we were in public , I would shame you.



What a brilliant citation from Dahl! However I understand it quite in contrary: if we were in public, I would have been put to mortal shame. This seems to me the only psychologically possible interpretation. Lauging at Emelya never even crossed narrator's mind, he just have realized to his great shame how inappropriate was suggesting to mend the coat to the one who could hardly see with his running eys and almost lost the use of his trembling fingers.


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## William Stein

Maroseika said:


> What a brilliant citation from Dahl! However I understand it quite in contrary: if we were in public, I would have been put to mortal shame. This seems to me the only psychologically possible interpretation. Lauging at Emelya never even crossed narrator's mind, he just have realized to his great shame how inappropriate was suggesting to mend the coat to the one who could hardly see with his running eys and almost lost the use of his trembling fingers.



Thanks for all the analyses and explanations everybody! What about this?:

I owe you an apology (or according to Blind Pew's interpretation, "Thanks for obliging me! (ironically)] You would have really made me ashamed if anybody had been there watching!


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## Maroseika

William Stein said:


> What about this?:
> 
> I owe you an apology (or according to Blind Pew's interpretation, "Thanks for obliging me! (ironically)] You would have really made me ashamed if anybody had been there watching!



The point is that he was ashamed anyway - no matter did anybody watch him or not, this was just his own feeling and this is very "Dostoyevskiy" thing. But there is a difference between being ashamed and disgraced. Disgrace - that's what he meant, I think, saying голову срезал бы.

As for одолжил, this is very tricky word. Generally speaking, he means Emelya beat him morally, Emelya's artlessness and simple-hearted obedience made his joke just nasty. So ironical "obliging me" seems quite irrelevant.


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## William Stein

Maroseika said:


> The point is that he was ashamed anyway - no matter did anybody watch him or not, this was just his own feeling and this is very "Dostoyevskiy" thing. But there is a difference between being ashamed and disgraced. Disgrace - that's what he meant, I think, saying голову срезал бы.



I agree that the narrator was ashamed anyway but he's he the one who said "* было б при людях" * so it must mean something. My vesion was just a variation on your own:  "if we were in public, I would have been put to mortal shame." That's an interesting point about "disgraced". 



Maroseika said:


> As for одолжил, this is very tricky word. Generally speaking, he means Emelya beat him morally, Emelya's artlessness and simple-hearted obedience made his joke just nasty. So ironical "obliging me" seems quite irrelevant.



The narrator is clearly ashamed but I think it's too much to ask of a Dostoevksiy character to abandon all irony. The narrator is not the one in tears and out of control, although he's affected, so I could easily imagine him saying "Much obliged!", ironically (in a gentle tone of voice), because Emelya didn't really do him any favor at all and his attempt was so pathetic (in every sense of the term).


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## Словеса

William Stein said:


> It's true that the narrator "owes something to the alcoholic" in the figurative sense, but the problem is that the alcoholic didn't really do any kind of favor to the narrator, he just fell into his trap and made a fool of himself.


Why, he did. He imposed a funny thought on the narrator. The narrator is being softly ironic. "Одолжить кого-либо" here means "to impose a debt on someone"; here it's the debt of the joke being watched. This is not an obsolete expression for this context, though the verb itself is somewhat cryptic. The narrator ironises not on the point that Yemelia did a thing that was not useful, but on the point that it was a weird situation (he does not blame Yemelia), so "much obliged" does not work at all.


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## William Stein

Словеса said:


> Why, he did. He imposed a funny thought on the narrator. The narrator is being softly ironic. "Одолжить кого-либо" here means "to impose a debt on someone"; here it's the debt of the joke being watched. This is not an obsolete expression for this context, though the verb itself is somewhat cryptic. The narrator ironises not on the point that Yemelia did a thing that was not useful, but on the point that it was a weird situation (he does not blame Yemelia), so "much obliged" does not work at all.



I agree, that's exactly what I said (see my previous post).

i never said that every single word in the story was obsolete and my Russian definitely isn't good enough to judge that for myself, but a lot of the words in that story (but not in the second story I read) are marked as obsolete in the Oxford Russian-English Dictionary, and I assume they know what they're talking abouit.


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