# EN: je parlais X et Y, mais j'ai presque tout oublié



## sahelonline

Hello,

my question is pretty much all in my title : I know that a language is a system and not only a collection of words, so any given language's name has to function as an uncountable noun and you can only forget "all of it".
But what about two different languages taken as a whole ?

If I were to write to a pen friend : "I used to study German and Russian in high school but that's a long time ago and I've forgotten almost all of them now.", would that be correct ? Or should I stick with "all of it" ?

I'm leaning towards the first solution, but it doesn't feel very natural to me.

Native speakers, what do you think ?


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## mark85

I think 'all of them' when using the 2 languages, but 'all of it' when speaking about 1 of them. But 'I've forgetten them/it all' sounds more natural I think.

Does that help?


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## sahelonline

Thanks Mark85 !

I kind of understand that you agree with my initial gut feeling.

Only... what exactly do you mean by :


mark85 said:


> But 'I've forgetten them/it all' sounds more natural I think.


- Which is it you think sounds more natural : "them" or "it" ?
- You're not suggesting that I use "forg*e*tten" instead of "forg*o*tten", are you ? I assume that's a typo (or maybe some version of Ye Olde Queen's English I don't know of ? ;-)

Cheers from the South bank of the Channel !

OK, sorry mark85 ! Now I get it (I think) !

If I read you well this time, you meant "I've forgotten them all" (in that order) sounds more natural than "I've forgotten all of them", right ?

I guess I was influenced by the lenghty structure of my whole sentence :
"I used to study German and Russian in high school but that's a long time ago and I've forgotten almost all of them now."
Do you suggest that I write instead : "I used to study German and Russian in high school but that's a long time ago and I've almost forgotten them all now." ?

Thanks again for your help !


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## jann

With one language, the answer is simple.

--> I used to study German, but that/it *was* a long time ago, and I've forgotten almost all of it. (you remember a little bit)
-->... I've forgotten it all by now. (you don't remember any German)

The idea is that you have forgotten most of the German you learned.  Your knowledge of the German language is understood to be divisible:  it is not a question of all or nothing.  It is possible to remember "some" of the German you learned.  The antecedent for "it" is "German," and the words "almost all" indicate a portion of the whole "it."

With many languages, the answer is also clear.

--> I used to study German, Russian, Italian, Portuguese, Spanish and Swahili, but it was a long time ago, and I've forgotten almost all of them. (you remember a couple of the languages, but you have forgotten the rest)
--> ...but I've forgotten them all (you don't remember any of the languages).

The word "them" refers to the countable languages you studied.   The question is no longer about remembering "some" of the German or "some" of the Swahili you learned.  Instead it is about remembering the German but forgetting the Russian, Italian, Portuguese, and Spanish.  The implied divsibility is not within your knowledge of a single language, but rather between your knowledge of different languages.

If you want to indicate that you remember a little bit of all of these languages, then you would say 
--> "...but I've forgotten almost all of what I learned" or "...but don't remember much."

The confusion comes when there are only two languages.  With two languages, you cannot use "all" to talk about them as a list; instead you must use "both."  However, you can certainly use "all" to talk about "all of what you learned of those 2 languages."  You must therefore find a sentence that makes your meaning clear: if you want to use the word "all," you must ensure that it will not be misunderstood as a grammatical error for "both."

--> I used to study German and Russian, but I've forgotton both of them by now / but I've forgotten them both. (You don't remember either of these languages)

--> ... but I've forgotton almost all of what I learned (you remember a little bit of both languages)
--> ... but I've forgotton almost all of both languages / almost all of both of them (you remember a little bit of both languages)

What you cannot say, because it is not grammatical when there are only two items in your list, is "I studied X & Y, but I've forgotten almost all of them." 

Does that help at all?


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## quinoa

Is it possible that "it" refers to "German and Russian", taken as a whole?


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## EnFrDe

I would personally say "...but I've forgotten almost all of it" - where "it" acts as a pronoun for "what I learned".  It may not be the most perfect or the most grammatically correct, but it _is_ what I as a native speaker would instinctively say.


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## jann

> Is it possible that "it" refers to "German and Russian", taken as a  whole?


Technically, no.  "German and Russian" is the antecedent, and it is clearly plural.  So the pronoun should be "them."   The pronoun "it" requires a different antecedent, one to indicate "that which I learned."  This antecedent is not explicit in the sentence, so if you use "it" the pronoun is heard/understood as a grammatical error (i.e., it sounds like you're using singular "it" to refer to plural "German and Russian).

You would have to rebuild the beginning of the sentence to offer an alternate antecedent, e.g., "I learned a lot of German and Russian, but I've forgotten almost all of it."  Now the antecedent can be "a lot of X & Y" which is singular because of "a lot."

That said, by the time you have a really long sentence with an intervening clause about how long ago it all was, I think the slip to "it" doesn't sound so unnatural, especially in spoken English.

Personally, I think I might avoid the problem entirely by saying... 

I studied German and Russian in high school, but it was a long time ago, and I've forgotten almost everything.


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## sahelonline

Thanks A LOT jann for this very detailed explanation !
It helps A GREAT DEAL !!!

What I meant was exactly this :


jann said:


> If you want to indicate that you remember a little bit of all of these languages, then you would say
> --> "...but I've forgotten almost all of what I learned" or "...but don't remember much."


...and now that I've gone through your whole reasoning I agree with your suggestions.

In the latter instance, though, the question of "it or them" remains, doesn't it ? Since "much" can stand either for "much of it" or for "much of them".

I'm guessing the proper complete phrasing would then be : "I don't remember much of any of them." Would you agree with that ?

Of course, your solution using "both of them" instead of "any of them" also works in the context of an assertive sentence :


jann said:


> --> ... but I've forgotton almost all of both languages / almost all  of both of them (you remember a little bit of both languages)



(OMG ! The present instead of the preterite and "all" instead of "both" in just one sentence ! Iiick ! :-[ )


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## sahelonline

Thanks to you too quinoa and EnFrDe !

jann, again : nicely done ! ;-)


jann said:


> Personally, I think I might avoid the problem entirely by saying...
> 
> I studied German and Russian in high school, but it was a long time ago, and I've forgotten almost everything.


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## jann

I'm glad to have been able to help. 


sahelonline said:


> In the latter instance, though, the question of "it or them" remains, doesn't it ? Since "much" can stand either for "much of it" or for "much of them".


 No, because "much" refers to something uncountable.  Languages are countable.  So if you say "much of it" then "it" = what you learned.  If you want to refer to the languages, you have to say "many of them"  where "them" = the languages. 



> I'm guessing the proper complete phrasing would then be : "I don't remember much of any of them." Would you agree with that ?


This phrasing is correct, but it is not grammatically necessary to add "of any of them."


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## geostan

jann said:


> I studied German and Russian in high school, but *it* was a long time ago, and I've forgotten almost everything.



Of course it's not incorrect to use "it," but I would spontaneously say "that." With a slightly different phrasing, I would use *it*.

...but it's been a long time,...

Just a personal choice, nothing more.


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## jann

Actually, I agree... there have just been so many versions of the sentence by now that I ended up reusing one of the ones with "it" instead of "that."


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## sahelonline

jann said:


> No, because "much" refers to something uncountable.  Languages are countable.  So if you say "much of it" then "it" = what you learned.  If you want to refer to the languages, you have to say "many of them"  where "them" = the languages.



OMG !!! How fucked up am I today ! This is English 101 !!! Sorry for waisting your time, guys... :-(

Thanks for your remark, geostan. I agree.


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## unmec

Hmmm
I think I would avoid the 'them" instinctively because of the confusion it would cause.
I used to study German and Russian but I've forgotten almost everything I learned


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## mark85

Hi! Yeah, it was a typo! I did mean to write 'forgotten'! The following sentance would be correct:

I used to study German and Russian in high school but that's a long time ago and I've almost forgotten them all now." 

Hope that helps!


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## brian

jann said:


> What you cannot say, because it is not grammatical when there are only two items in your list, is "I studied X & Y, but I've forgotten almost all of them."



Then what about: _I studied X and Y, but I've forgotten almost all of each _(or _both_)_ of them._  It's not the best sentence, but I'll admit I use similar constructions in conversation, when I'm in a bind. For example: _I've never actually read any of Dickens's books in its entirety, though I've read almost all of each of them._

It takes a bit more thinking (relatively speaking) on the part of the interlocutor to understand, but in fast conversation, on the spot, I often can't think of a clearer way to express such an idea. Sometimes there is no other way.

Luckily, however, for the sentence in question, that's not the case:



			
				jann said:
			
		

> I studied German and Russian in high school, but it was a long time ago, and I've forgotten almost everything.



This is the first thing that came to my mind.


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