# doesn't have the cojones to fight fair



## malo sera

Pregunta rápida de responder para nativos:

Ya es la 4ª o 5ª vez que me encuentro textos de ingleses, canadienses, americanos,..., con la palabra ''cojones'' -bollocks-, (con respeto xD). 

¿La utilizan como un aforismo? ¿La entienden? Es curioso, a mí me parece una palabra muy castiza (como para que la usen en el extranjero).

Por ejemplo, ...mensaje  de un comentarista (canadiense, donde creo que no hay muchos hispanohablante como para que haya tal absorción idiomática) de un tabloide:

Someone who is looking for a fight but doesn't have the cojones to fight fair, with his fists. The epitome of cowardice.

Saludos y abrazo virtual.


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## William Stein

Most people in North America probably know the meaning of cojones (I don't know about the UK). 
It would also be possible to say "but doesn't have the balls to fight" and it would mean exactly the same thing, but maybe the word "balls" has been black-listed (or, black-balled) for journalists so they use "cojones" instead. Do you have words in Spanish that would never appear in a headline in El País?


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## jilar

Me quedo igual de sorprendido que tú, vecino 

De hecho lo tienen registrado en el Collins
http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/cojones
Con la pronunciación española.

Aunque no registran el singular. La explicación es obvia, en español es más común usar el plural, cojones, como sinónimo de "coraje" o "valor"

Aunque es muy común que las palabrotas sean de las primeras palabras que aprenden los extranjeros, 

Moderator's note - unauthorised video link removed


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## catspanish

En el inglés británico decimos "balls" para expresar coraje, valentía pero normalmente de una forma negativa: "He doesn't have the balls to ask for more money." Tiene un matiz inglés americano.


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## Argieman

William Stein said:


> Most people in North America probably know the meaning of cojones (I don't know about the UK). It would also be possible to say "but doesn't have the balls to fight" and it would mean exactly the same thing, but maybe the word "balls" has been black-listed (or, black-balled) for journalists so they use "cojones" instead. Do you have words in Spanish that would never appear in a headline in El País?


Cojones, polla, follar, I guess, though El País is edited in Madrid, and my spanish is argie 
Wait for a spaniard


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## William Stein

Argieman said:


> Cojones, polla, follar, I guess, though El País is edited in Madrid, and my spanish is argie
> Wait for a spaniard



I bet the English list is longer than the Spanish list, although English isn't very imaginative compared to French, they have slang words for everything!
You could add "culo", "panocho", "pinga", "picha". I don't know whether "mierda" is permitted in headlines or not.


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## malo sera

catspanish said:


> En el inglés británico decimos "balls" para expresar coraje, valentía pero normalmente de una forma negativa: "He doesn't have the balls to ask for more money." Tiene un matiz inglés americano.



Ya sé que en Inglaterra se dice ''balls'' como análoga directa, pero también tengo visto en algunos textos ingleses la palabra ''cojones''... se me viene a la cabeza cuando la mujer del vice primer ministro británico, Nick Glegg, que es española, dijo la palabra ''cojones'' también una vez en referencia de que las mujeres no deben dejarse pisotear por los hombres, y toda la audiencia lo entendió y se rieron -otras veces me lo encontré en comentarios por ahí que ahora no me acuerdo-.

 Yo lo creía hasta ahora una sobredosis británica de Benidorm, Magaluf  con un lenguaje de ''altísimo'' nivel:

-¿Qué haces? ¡joder!
-Ten cojones y dime lo que tengo que hacer

Pero un día lo vi en un texto americano, y me sorprendió,... y hoy lo vi en boca de un canadiense y ya me pareció muy, muy raro

Realmente, en España no causa tanto drama escuchar palabrotas, incluso entre las personas más intelectuales (Camilo José Cela, Dalí, Fernando Fernan Gómez, decian palabrotas cada vez que hablaban, en los programas de televisión todos los presentadores sueltan alguna, en la literatura o en el cine), bueno, nos autodefinimos como campechanos (vease guarros) xD... dicen palabrotas todo el mundo, y los periódicos no las omiten.... aunque los periódicos suelen ser bastante educados (aquí no existen los tabloides).. pero si alguien dicen una palabrota la ponen. Por ejemplo:

Zapatero (el anterior presidente de España) se reunió con el anterior presidente de Rusia (Dimitri Medvedev) y dijo

-Hemos firmado un acuerdo, para estimular, par favorecer, para follar(en vez de ''apoyar'') el turismo español en Rusia...(es gracioso ver la cara que se le queda al ruso cuando lo escucha por los cascos de traducción  )

titular de los periódicos --> Zapatero:''Hemos firmado un acuerdo para estimular, para favorecer, para follar el turismo español en Rusia''
titular de los periódicos --> Zapatero:''Hemos firmado un acuerdo para estimular, para favorecer, para follar '' este suena más guarrete xD

P.D: no se si esto se va fuera de alguna norma por salir por la tangente del tema


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## William Stein

malo sera said:


> :''Hemos firmado un acuerdo, para estimular, par favorecer, para follar el turismo español en Rusia''



Por lo menos no pusieron "para estimular y luego follar los turistas españoles en Rusia"!



malo sera said:


> España no causa tanto drama escuchar palabrotas


Por eso dije que la lista debería ser más extensa en EEUU. Nunca he entendido porque (o por qué?) pero es absolutamente imposible decir "fuck" en los periódicos o en la televisión (en el cable sí, pero no en los programas para todo público (y nada púbico)
Todo  eso para decir que no pondrían "balls" en la mayoría de los periódicos americanos pero "cojones" sí (qué primate extraño es el hombre...)


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## ucles

*malo sera*, existe tanto el derecho a oír como el derecho de no tener que oír palabras malsonantes en medios de comunicación que llegan hasta el público general estadounidense, palabras que tenían un nombre, las four-letters words, e incluso últimamente además de un pitido se pixela la boca del que las diga para no escandalizar a sordomudos lectores de labios. es todo un mundo complicado. yo después de ver determinadas series españolas me acojo a no oírlas.


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## malo sera

ucles said:


> *malo sera*, existe tanto el derecho a oír como el derecho de no tener que oír palabras malsonantes en medios de comunicación que llegan hasta el público general estadounidense, palabras que tenían un nombre, las four-letters words, e incluso últimamente además de un pitido se pixela la boca del que las diga para no escandalizar a sordomudos lectores de labios. es todo un mundo complicado. yo después de ver determinadas series españolas me acojo a no oírlas.




es cierto, pero yo creo que en los países anglosajones dicen más palabrotas.. al menos, el ''fuck'' se hace muy aburrido de escucharlo, es como la reacción de niños pequeños, que te quitan algo y después tu quieres más,... y además, un periódico americano o un programa de televisión no (en EEUU se auto-censuraron las portadas del Chalie Hebdob, es una visión distinta de cara a lo que es correcto o no),... pero una película americana está llena de palabrotas (y si es de ciencia ficción ya ni te digo)


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## outkast

Es cierto, yo he oído "cojones" tanto en películas como en programas de TV. Siempre me llamó la atención, pero bueno, también usan "gordo", "pronto", "vamoose" (vamos o vámonos), etc.


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## aloofsocialite

Se me hace que durante los ochenta se usaban palabras de origen español para darle "sabor" a nuestra manera de hablar. Eso de _vamoose, pronto, cojones, ándale, rápido, arriba _(estas últimas gracias a Speedy Gonzalez) casi siempre las oigo en pelis de esa época, casi nadie las dice en realidad donde yo vivo, o si las dice, es solo en plan humorístico.


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## outkast

Yo tampoco he oído a nadie usarlas, solo en películas y en series de TV, y no sólo de los 80.


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## The Newt

aloofsocialite said:


> Se me hace que durante los ochenta se usaban palabras de origen español para darle "sabor" a nuestra manera de hablar. Eso de _vamoose, pronto, cojones, ándale, rápido, arriba _(estas últimas gracias a Speedy Gonzalez) casi siempre las oigo en pelis de esa época, casi nadie las dice en realidad donde yo vivo, o si las dice, es solo en plan humorístico.



The linguist Jane H. Hill has named this phenomenon "Mock Spanish" (although many of the words are, of course, real Spanish words), and has noted that most of the words employed in this manner serve to reinforce negative stereotypes, particularly of Mexicans. English-speakers who would never think of borrowing Spanish words like _cielo, tierra, edificio_, or _arte_ will nevertheless sprinkle their conversation with words like _cojones, macho,_ and _cerveza_.


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## aloofsocialite

Thanks for the reference drop Newt, found a paper by her on the subject. Looks good.

(Mods: please forgive the public post, Newt doesn't accept PMs).


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## malo sera

ya, esto es como que todas las palabras derivadas del español en el inglés son negativas: mosquito, machismo, macho (está palabra cada vez que la escucho, ''he's a macho'' me parece surrealista), senorita (con ''n'' en vez de ''señorita'' palabra que, al menos en España, para decir a una mujer es bastante machista y anticuada, es un diminutivo y los diminutivos siempre son negativos), fiasco, ....


bueno, gracias por resolverme la duda... me llamaba la atención eso de escuchar ''cojones'', una palabra bastante, bastante vulgar. Al menos en ingles no se pronuncia la ''j'' porque con la pronunciación española aún la hace más fuerte y violenta de escuchar (es como ''joder'' la ''j'' suena como si fueses a escupir o a hacer gargaras)


Abrazos


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## Argieman

aloofsocialite said:


> Thanks for the reference drop Newt, found a paper by her on the subject. Looks good.
> 
> (Mods: please forgive the public post, Newt doesn't accept PMs).


But it´s good anyway, no matter if you already knew it or if Newt doesn´t accept PMs. I didn´t noticed it, but it´s good to name it "Mock Spanish". I haven´t noticed that by myself. Remembers me when in Hollywood movies, black people could only have negative roles, like, say, servants, bad guys, etc. 
You recalled Speedy Gonzalez! He was a piece of my childhood
Besos argentinos


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## jilar

Aquí en España no creo que haya tanta censura como programas de EEUU (cada vez se ven más, suena el pitido y ahora hasta pixelan/tapan la boca)
Si acaso, un periodista, o un locutor de TV o radio, ... no diría "cojones" (Arturo Pérez-Reverte es una excepción, en general), en cambio podría sustituirlo por "bemoles", que quiere decir lo mismo en ese contexto, pero, digamos que la segunda, bemoles, está permitida, no se considera una palabrota sino más bien una licencia educada, y hasta inteligente, para decir lo mismo sin usar una palabrota tan clara como "cojones".

Luego en las películas, creo que hay muchas licencias, incluso en la traducción posterior. Por ejemplo, ahora mismo están emitiendo en la TV la película "Los ángeles de Charlie:Al límite"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie's_Angels:_Full_Throttle

En una secuencia, el personaje que interpreta Drew Barrymore, Dylan, explica a sus compañeras que antes se llamaba "Helen Granano", así lo dicen y escriben en los subtítulos.
A mí en ese momento "Granano" no me llamó la atención, me parece un apellido más, como otro cualquiera, quizá con origen italiano.

Pero la escena continúa y el personaje que interpreta Shia LaBeouf, Max Petroni, le pregunta a Dylan algo así:
-Entonces tú antes eras Helen "Gran Ano". Gran Ano, ¿de verdad/bromeas?

Dylan se lo confirma, y a partir de ahí varios personajes tienen varias frases haciendo alguna broma por cambiar una palabra existente por otra cambiando una letra, para emplear en esa palabra inventada la secuencia "ano".
Por ejemplo, y aquí hablo de memoria:

Anolizar, por analizar.

Todo esto en la versión española. Lo que me pregunto es qué dirán en el original en inglés.
El nombre original es Helen Zaas (como se puede comprobar en la Wikipedia), que lo convierten en español, como ya dije, en Helen Granano.

Ass = culo. Vale.

Pero de Zaas a Granano. Hay que tener imaginación (lo digo positivamente), ya que, como explico, el diálogo posterior necesita algún tipo de conversión para que en cualquier lengua haya "gracia" o "chiste" a ese respecto. Chistoso juego de palabras, sencillamente.


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## LanguageUser1234

> Arturo Pérez-Reverte es una excepción, en general



Eso sí. En muchos sentidos. 

Para volver al tema original, es interesante cuando una palabra malsonante como "cojones" es adaptada en otra lengua. A veces la gente la usa en inglés sin darse cuenta de que realmente es algo fuerte. Recuerdo que hace muchos años la entonces Secretaria de Estado Madeleine Albright usó la palabra "cojones" cuando hablaba ante, creo, la Asamblea General de Naciones Unidas. Seguramente nunca se le habría ocurrido usar la palabra "balls" en tal foro.

Por otra parte, leí hace unos meses que Angela Merkel había causado cierto asombro al usar en una conferencia de prensa o algo así la palabra inglesa "shitstorm", que al parecer se ha incorporado al alemán como palabra normal y corriente.


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## William Stein

jilar said:


> Pero la escena continúa y el personaje que interpreta Shia LaBeouf, Max Petroni, le pregunta a Dylan algo así:
> -Entonces tú antes eras Helen "Gran Ano". Gran Ano, ¿de verdad/bromeas?
> 
> Dylan se lo confirma, y a partir de ahí varios personajes tienen varias frases haciendo alguna broma por cambiar una palabra existente por otra cambiando una letra, para emplear en esa palabra inventada la secuencia "ano".
> Por ejemplo, y aquí hablo de memoria:
> 
> Anolizar, por analizar.
> 
> Todo esto en la versión española. Lo que me pregunto es qué dirán en el original en inglés.
> El nombre original es Helen Zaas (como se puede comprobar en la Wikipedia), que lo convierten en español, como ya dije, en Helen Granano.
> 
> Ass = culo. Vale.
> 
> Pero de Zaas a Granano. Hay que tener imaginación (lo digo positivamente), ya que, como explico, el diálogo posterior necesita algún tipo de conversión para que en cualquier lengua haya "gracia" o "chiste" a ese respecto. Chistoso juego de palabras, sencillamente.



Helen Zaas -> Helen's Ass (imagino). Eso de "Granano" me hace pensar en Bigas (big ass) Luna.


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## jilar

Yo pensé lo mismo, William  Primero busqué "Helen Big Ass. Drew Barrymore" ... y como no encontraba resultados pensé en "Big Ass". Pero al leer la Wikipedia en inglés de esa película ya encontré lo que buscaba = Helen Zaas.

¿Sabes cuál puede ser el diálogo de esa película en la versión original? Me interesa.


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## William Stein

The Newt said:


> The linguist Jane H. Hill has named this phenomenon "Mock Spanish" (although many of the words are, of course, real Spanish words), and has noted that most of the words employed in this manner serve to reinforce negative stereotypes, particularly of Mexicans. English-speakers who would never think of borrowing Spanish words like _cielo, tierra, edificio_, or _arte_ will nevertheless sprinkle their conversation with words like _cojones, macho,_ and _cerveza_.



It think that theory is a bit paranoid. Almost every example of a borrowed word in English is due to the fact that the foreign word is more descriptive or corresponds to a foreign concept for which there is no native word so we borrow it as an asset. Of course we don't borrow words like "cielo" and "tierra" or "edificio" because we already have English words for those things, what would be the point? The use of "cojones" is probably a way to get around censorship of the word "balls" as much as anything, along with the fact that it sounds cool, and there's certainly nothing negative about the word "cerveza"; it's true we have an English word but "beer" doesn't sound nearly as appetizing. As for "macho", it's a specific hispanic concept based on "bull-like immobility in the face of aggression", as explained by Octavio Paz in "Laberinto de la Soledad". Since we don't have any exact equivalent it's only natural to adopt the foreign word.


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## The Newt

William Stein said:


> It think that theory is a bit paranoid. Almost every example of a borrowed word in English is due to the fact that the foreign word is more descriptive or corresponds to a foreign concept for which there is no native word so we borrow it as an asset. Of course we don't borrow words like "cielo" and "tierra" or "edificio" because we already have English words for those things, what would be the point? The use of "cojones" is probably a way to get around censorship of the word "balls" as much as anything, along with the fact that it sounds cool, and there's certainly nothing negative about the word "cerveza"; it's true we have an English word but "beer" doesn't sound nearly as appetizing. As for "macho", it's a specific hispanic concept based on "bull-like immobility in the face of aggression", as explained by Octavio Paz in "Laberinto de la Soledad". Since we don't have any exact equivalent it's only natural to adopt the foreign word.



I think "macho" is a special case, and I'm not sure the author is entirely correct about it; certainly Latin American scholars have had discussions of _machismo_ that go beyond the simple notion of "maleness." But I think she's correct about much of the rest; _cerveza_ is not "a negative word," but inserting it into your conversation does imply a conscious or unconscious association of Mexican identity with beer-drinking. 

The best example I can think of is _mañana:_ countless English-speakers who were not raised to speak Spanish and have never studied it are familiar with the word and may occasionally use it, but precious few would be able to come up with _ayer _for "yesterday." _Ayer_ has no stereotypical value, but _mañana_ is the promise that Mexicans are stereotypically thought to make when asked to do anything.


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## William Stein

The Newt said:


> _cerveza_ is not "a negative word," but inserting it into your conversation does imply a conscious or unconscious association of Mexican identity with beer-drinking.



First of all I don't think there's anything inherently bad about beer drinking, the Prohibition days are over, beer-drinking is as American as mom and apple pie, and the typical use is: "I could sure use a few cervezas right now", which places it in a highly positive light.



The Newt said:


> The best example I can think of is _mañana:_ countless English-speakers who were not raised to speak Spanish and have never studied it are familiar with the word and may occasionally use it, but precious few would be able to come up with _ayer _for "yesterday." _Ayer_ has no stereotypical value, but _mañana_ is the promise that Mexicans are stereotypically thought to make when asked to do anything.



You have a point there, but I can't think of any other Spanish word that's used pejoratively  (besides "macho", which we already discussed) and every culture really does have certain typical weaknesses so there's nothing wrong with mentioning them. Procrastination is not very serious as far as vices go, it's hardly a deadly sin.


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## The Newt

William Stein said:


> First of all I don't think there's anything inherently bad about beer drinking, the Prohibition days are over, beer-drinking is as American as mom and apple pie, and the typical use is: "I could sure use a few cervezas right now", which places it in a highly positive light. [...]



I don't think there's anything inherently bad about beer drinking either, but the fact that we choose to use a Spanish word _may_ suggest that we associate the practice of beer-drinking with one ethnicity, and that we believe that people of that ethnicity are characteristically prone to alcohol [ab]use.

Procrastination is indeed not one of the more grave sins, but when you have a cluster of borrowed words associated with laziness, inebriation, banditry, and the like, you _may_ be indicating the existence of a deeper and more serious stereotype.


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## William Stein

The Newt said:


> I don't think there's anything inherently bad about beer drinking either, but the fact that we choose to use a Spanish word _may_ suggest that we associate the practice of beer-drinking with one ethnicity, and that we believe that people of that ethnicity are characteristically prone to alcohol [ab]use.
> 
> Procrastination is indeed not one of the more grave sins, but when you have a cluster of borrowed words associated with laziness, inebriation, banditry, and the like, you _may_ be indicating the existence of a deeper and more serious stereotype.




I think if you just focus on the negative words you can fabricate a negative stereotype, just as you could fabricate a positive stereotype from fiesta, piñata, rodeo, pronto, taco, enchilada, etc.
To take a random sample in alphabetical order, there's hardly a single negative term in the whole list (http://spanish.about.com/cs/historyofspanish/a/spanishloanword.htm):



adios (from _adiós_)
adobe (originally Coptic _tobe_, "brick")
aficionado
albino
alcove (from Spanish _alcoba_, originallyArabic _al-qubba_)
alfalfa (originally Arabic _al-fasfasah_. Many other English words beginning with "al" were originally Arabic, and many may have had a Spanish-language connection in becoming English.)
alligator (from _el lagarto_, "the lizard")
alpaca (animal similar to a llama, from Aymara _allpaca_)
armada
armadillo (literally, "the little armed one")
arroyo (English regionalism for "stream")
avocado (originally a Nahuatl word, _ahuacatl_)
bajada (a geological term referring to a type of alluvial slope at the base of a mountain, from _bajada_, meaning "slope")
banana (word, originally of African origin, entered English via either Spanish or Portuguese)
bandoleer (type of belt, from _bandolera_)
barbecue (from _barbacoa_, a word of Caribbean origin)
barracuda
bizarre (some sources, not all, say this word came from the Spanish _bizarro_)
bonanza (although the Spanish _bonanza_ can be used synonymously with the Englishcognate, it more often means "calm seas" or "fair weather")
booby (from _bobo_, meaning "silly" or "selfish")
bravo (from either Italian or Old Spanish)
bronco (means "wild" or "rough" in Spanish)
buckaroo (possibly from _vaquero_, "cowboy")
bunco (probably from _banco_, "bank")
burrito (literally "little donkey")
burro


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## The Newt

William Stein said:


> I think if you just focus on the negative words you can fabricate a negative stereotype, just as you could fabricate a positive stereotype from fiesta, piñata, rodeo, pronto, taco, enchilada, etc.



But _piñata, taco, _and_ enchilada_ (and maybe _rodeo_) aren't simply borrowed words; they're borrowed artifacts or practices that have brought their original names with them. So it's not quite the same as borrowing _mañana, cojones, cerveza,_ etc.


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## jilar

Yo creo que sí, no todas las palabras tomadas del español, pero algunas de ellas (no teniendo necesidad, p. ej: Mañana= morning = tomorrow. Cerveza=Beer. Que, curiosamente no están integradas en el idioma inglés, respecto a la pronunciación. El diccionario me indica la pronunciación española) pueden crear en el subconsciente algún que otro estereotipo.
Si la autora que expresa esa idea, "Mock Spanish", es lingüista, algún estudio habrá realizado, con cierta base, me imagino.

Es algo como cuando en español usamos la palabra "yanki". Habrá gente que la use sin ninguna malicia, o sin ningún doble sentido o insinuación, pero no es lo común, diría.
Creo que incluso pasa en el mismo EEUU, es decir, estadounidenses que no se consideran "yankees", por ejemplo estadounidenses sureños, para hacer alguna gracia, mofa, burla, chiste, ... llamémosle como queramos, sobre sus convecinos de más al norte.
¿Me equivoco?


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## William Stein

aloofsocialite said:


> I see some parallels between what's being discussed and the fact that when I was a little kid the only Spanish I knew was fragments of _La cucaracha, _usually accompanied in my mind by a drunken cartoon mouse wearing a Mexican sombrero ('cuz I saw it on the Speedy Gonzalez show, duh).



Everybody is always ridiculous in cartoons, including all the American characters and other nationalities (cf. the French in the illustrious personage of Pepe La Phew!), and they're practically all "lovable" at the same time, except for the rabid dogs, so you can't claim that they were an incitation to racial hatred. Cartoon characters are simplified stereotypes by nature, but everybody knows that and nobody takes them seriously. In any case, people have the right to caricature anything and laugh at anything, like Charlie Hebdo and its predecessor Hara Kiri, which were really wonderful magazines and had me laughing out loud all the time. They are the true expression of freedom of the press and civil liberties, carrying the torch from Mad Magazine.



jilar said:


> Mañana= morning = tomorrow. Cerveza=Beer. Que, curiosamente no están integradas en el idioma inglés, respecto a la pronunciación. El diccionario me indica la pronunciación española) pueden crear en el subconsciente algún que otro estereotipo.



You have to realize that Spanish is extremely common in the US and that Spanish-speakers even make up the majority of the population in Los Angeles, all the announcements are bilingual in many or even most airports, so people come into contact with Spanish every day in real life, not just in cartoons, and it's only to be expected that certain Spanish words make a big impression and "stick". Of course, you can say 'but why the negative ones?" but they're really a very small minority of the loan words from Spanish as shown by the loan-word link I gave above, there are really a lot more positive ones (cf. bonanza) or at least neutral ones.

"Yanqui" is not a fair example, that's sort of a derogatory national/racial term, that''s not we're talking about.


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## The Newt

William Stein said:


> [...]In any case, people have the right to cariacture anything and laugh at anything, like Charlie Hebdo and its predecessor Hara Kiri, which were really wonderful magazines and had me laughing out loud all the time. They are the true expression of freedom of the press and civil liberties, carrying the torch from Mad Magazine.



We're getting far from the theme of this thread, but I don't think freedom of expression is the issue. I'm not suggesting that racial stereotypes should be legally banned or that anyone should suffer violence for indulging in them. We do have to recognize, however, that such stereotypes can be extremely harmful, especially when they are the outward expression of racial discrimination, segregation, and racism. Few people would be comfortable today with stereotypical representations of African-Americans as shuffling, watermelon-eating simpletons. There have been similar, if perhaps somewhat more ambiguous, representations of Mexicans and other Hispanics.


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## William Stein

The Newt said:


> We're getting far from the theme of this thread, but I don't think freedom of expression is the issue. I'm not suggesting that racial stereotypes should be legally banned or that anyone should suffer violence for indulging in them. We do have to recognize, however, that such stereotypes can be extremely harmful, especially when they are the outward expression of racial discrimination, segregation, and racism. Few people would be comfortable today with stereotypical representations of African-Americans as shuffling, watermelon-eating simpletons. There have been similar, if perhaps somewhat more ambiguous, representations of Mexicans and other Hispanics.



I think the cartoons are a bit off topic, too, and it should be pointed out that they're not even shown on TV anymore, but I was responding to Aloofsocialite's post. I'm not in favor of racial sterotypes, either, but I still think the idea that the loan words reflect some dangerous stereotype overall is silly, most of the loan words are positive or neutral.


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## The Newt

William Stein said:


> I'm not in favor of racial stereotypes, either, but I still think the idea that the loan words reflect some dangerous stereotype overall is silly, most of the loan words are positive or neutral.



I don't want to drag this out further, but if you're interested in pursuing it the discussion of Mock Spanish is in _The Everyday Language of White Racism_ by Jane H. Hill.


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## William Stein

The Newt said:


> I don't want to drag this out further, but if you're interested in pursuing it the discussion of Mock Spanish is in _The Everyday Language of White Racism_ by Jane H. Hill.



That's precisely the work I'm criticizing. Anyway, to get back on topic, I think there's absolutely nothing derogatory in the use of cojones in English, unless one claims that "testicles" are bad in and of themselves or as expressions of courage (which is exactly the same as with " balls"), which I for one contest.


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## The Newt

William Stein said:


> That's precisely the work I'm criticizing. Anyway, to get back on topic, I think there's absolutely nothing derogatory in the use of cojones in English, unless one claims that "testicles" are bad in and of themselves or as expressions of courage (which is exactly the same as with " balls"), which I for one contest.



One of her points (and this starts to get heavy on the linguistics) is disputing what she calls the "referentialist ideology" that the expressions of Mock Spanish "'mean the same' as the corresponding English words." "Mañana," for instance, "means the same" as "tomorrow," but "the word projects many non-referential meanings..." She carefully distinguishes Mock Spanish from "slurs"; the point isn't that a particular word is "derogatory," but that the choice by particular speakers to use it in specific settings reflects the fact that language does more than simply neutrally refer to the objects or actions that we wish to describe; it also serves a host of social functions. But I'm oversimplifying her work, so I'll let it go there. 

Nevertheless, I appreciate the civility of this discussion, since this kind of topic often provokes incivility.


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