# F. Pessoa



## marcolinocro

Hello folk!
I need our help with this poem of Fernando Pessoa.
I want to translate it. 
I have problem only with the last line (in cursive/italiac)

Sendo nós portugueses, convém saber o que é que somos.
a) adaptabilidade, que no mental dá a instabilidade, e portanto a diversificação do indivíduo dentro de si mesmo. O bom português é várias pessoas.
b) a predominância da emoção sobre a paixão. Somos ternos e pouco intensos, ao contrário dos espanhóis — nossos absolutos contrários — que são apaixonados e frios.
Nunca me sinto tão portuguesmente eu como quando me sinto diferente de mim – 
_Alberto Caeiro, Ricardo Reis, Álvaro de Campos, Fernando Pessoa, e quantos mais haja havidos ou por haver._

I don't undestand the meaning... Pessoa says something like "Alberto Caeiro, Ricardo Reis, Álvaro de Campos, Fernando Pessoa, and many other that I have or I could have"

Pessoa want to underline that, He have inside himself Alberto Caeiro and other indentity,  but also, there's a possibility that He can have, inside himself, other more characters.

Do I understand?


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## machadinho

Marcolino, great poet, isn't _they?_  I'll translate the passage however poorly into English. I wish I knew Italian to translate it directly. Alberto Caeiro, Ricardo Reis, Álvaro de Campos, Fernando Pessoa, and all others which have existed or will exist. You already know about his dozens of heteronyms, don't you? The first three are the most widely known. Fernando Pessoa, the autonym, is just another heteronym from Fernando's viewpoint. They are not strictly inside him. Rather they are different though interrelated modes of being which exist through poetry. It is like a number of variously stained mirrors facing one another. Portuguese foreros may explain it further and provide you a better translation.


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## joaosilva

"Alberto Caeiro, Ricardo Reis, Álvaro de Campos, Fernando Pessoa, and as many as there had been or will be" would be my translation. It`s impossible for me though to improve machadinho's explanations.


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## GamblingCamel

Guys, might you explain the translation of the verbs in a bit more detail?

haja = present subjunctive haver
habidos = participle plural haver
por = preposition, right? (at first I thought it was related to pôr)
haver = infinitive


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## marcolinocro

machadinho said:


> Marcolino, great poet, isn't _they?_  I'll translate the passage however poorly into English. I wish I knew Italian to translate it directly. Alberto Caeiro, Ricardo Reis, Álvaro de Campos, Fernando Pessoa, and all others which have existed or will exist. You already know about his dozens of heteronyms, don't you? The first three are the most widely known. Fernando Pessoa, the autonym, is just another heteronym from Fernando's viewpoint. They are not strictly inside him. Rather they are different though interrelated modes of being which exist through poetry. It is like a number of variously stained mirrors facing one another. Portuguese foreros may explain it further and provide you a better translation.



Pessoa's heteronyms are so charming!


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## machadinho

GamblingCamel said:


> Guys, might you explain the translation of the verbs in a bit more detail?
> 
> haja = present subjunctive haver
> habvidos = participle plural haver  (Spanish is absolutely not allowed here, GC! "ao contrário dos espanhóis — nossos absolutos contrários")
> por = preposition, right?  (at first I thought it was related to pôr)
> haver = infinitive


Yes, sure. But why don't you write in Portuguese, GC? 

*Forma impessoal ------ Forma pessoal*
(haja ) + (havidos )   = tenham existidos
(there) + (had been) = had existed

( por )    + (haver)   = existirão
(about) + (to be) = shall exist


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## marcolinocro

machadinho said:


> Yes, sure. But why don't you write in Portuguese, GC?
> 
> *Forma impessoal ------ Forma pessoal*
> (haja ) + (havidos )   = tenham existidos
> (there) + (had been) = had existed
> 
> ( por )    + (existir )   = existirão
> (about) + (to exist) = shall exist



 You are so good with portugues! I'm a "newcomer" of Portugues.
I understand the written (probably because portugues is similar to italian) but I'm not able to write, speak or something more.

But I like so much the sound of European portogues. 

When I will be in retirement I will study it!


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## GamblingCamel

machadinho said:


> Yes, sure. But why don't you write in Portuguese, GC?


Because duty obliges me to serve as a model of proper English for Portuguese speakers. 
It's a burden that I try to bear graciously.

Both you and Sean translated _haja havidos_ as HAD BEEN. Do you think it should instead be HAVE BEEN ~~ the heteronyms that have been + will be?
___

> Marco, when do you retire? Don't put off until tomorrow what you can do today!


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## machadinho

GamblingCamel said:


> Both you and Sean translated _haja havidos_ as HAD BEEN. Do you think it should instead be HAVE BEEN ~~ the heteronyms that have been + will be?


Yeah, I think you're right. In fact, por haver->about to exist isn't what we are looking for. But I couldn't come up with a better idea. So, my dear *Model*,  what about things to be? Heteronyms as many as have been and as are to be? Does that make sense?


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## englishmania

Pessoa's heteronyms are not just different names, they are different people with their own lives, date of birth, jobs, etc.  
Ricardo Reis is a doctor from Porto who likes the classics/ classical literature.
Álvaro de Campos is my favourite. His work is divided into 3 different phases. He is an engineer.
Alberto Caeiro is a shepherd. He has some nice reflections on senses/thought.
Bernardo Soares is very good too - closer to Pessoa's personality (?).

Just explore their works / Pessoa's work.


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## GamblingCamel

machadinho said:


> Yeah, I think you're right. In fact, por haver->about to exist isn't what we are looking for. But I couldn't come up with a better idea. So, my dear *Model*,  what about things to be? Heteronyms as many as have been and as are to be? Does that make sense?



"are to be" is very charming, but isn't a very natural phrasing. The first Google entry for it is from Luke 13:23 ~ Weymouth New Testament, 1903. "And one said to him, Sir, are such as are to be saved few in number?" 

I don't know Pessoa but I feel that he is speaking in a simple, direct voice, even if his grammar is literary. Am I right or wrong?



> Alberto Caeiro, Ricardo Reis, Álvaro de Campos, Fernando Pessoa, e quantos mais haja havidos ou por haver.
> 
> AC, RR, AdC, FP, and as many more as have been or will be.



LOL. I googled my translation, and it turns out that an Am English translator did it the exact same way.


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## GamblingCamel

englishmania said:


> Ricardo Reis is a doctor from Porto who likes the classics/ classical literature.
> Álvaro de Campos is my favourite. His work is divided into 3 different phases. He is an engineer.
> Alberto Caeiro is a shepherd. He has some nice reflections on senses/thought.
> Bernardo Soares is very good too - closer to Pessoa's personality (?).


English, it sounds like you know them personally.


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## englishmania

No, they're dead.


BTW, website.


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## GamblingCamel

englishmania said:


> No, they're dead.


I don't think that matters when we're talking about literature, does it?


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## englishmania

Of course not. I was just saying that I couldn't have met them as they had already died when I was born.


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## GamblingCamel

Understood. Thanks for the website link, English. Maybe when I have time I'll read some Pessoa and ask for translation help from foreros.


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## marta12

Vai perceber bem o Fernando Pessoa e vai gostar, Gambling.


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## J. Bailica

GamblingCamel said:


> Understood. Thanks for the website link, English. Maybe when I have time I'll read some Pessoa and ask for translation help from foreros.


 
GC, ele escreveu em inglês também. 
(Mas infelizmente a poesia dele em ingês não se aproxima da que escreveu em português, ao que parece; e por outro lado não serve para vc aprender português!)


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## J. Bailica

GamblingCamel said:


> "are to be" is very charming, but isn't a very natural phrasing. The first Google entry for it is from Luke 13:23 ~ Weymouth New Testament, 1903. "And one said to him, Sir, are such as are to be saved few in number?"


 
Já agora, qual seria a maneira mais natural de traduzir essa ideia (as are to be)?


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## GamblingCamel

J. Bailica said:


> Já agora, qual seria a maneira mais natural de traduzir essa ideia (as are to be)?


_as will be _
just the way sean bush translated it back in post 3 

JB > I'll read FP in Portguese.  No reason to read him in English. One of my heteronyms has been hanging out with one of his heteronyms every Thursday evening at a bar in Soho, and they/we/all of us converse only in English.


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## J. Bailica

Bem me parecia.
(Isto é, não fazia ideia)


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## Macunaíma

I like GC's translation - _and as many more as have been or will be_ -, except that "por haver" does not necessarily mean _will be_.... It can simply mean that it _never was_.


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## J. Bailica

Pois, não é necessariamente 'will be' - pelo menos no sentido primeiro (não sei se há outro), ou mais literal da expressão.

E 'yet to be', faz sentido?


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## GamblingCamel

J. Bailica said:


> Pois, não é necessariamente 'will be' - pelo menos no sentido primeiro (não sei se há outro), ou mais literal da expressão.
> 
> E 'yet to be', faz sentido?


"and _as_ many more _as_" is an indefinite phrasing, in respect to the future.  There may be no more, one more, many more.

"Add/have as many more as you like/want."
"What's the United States' greatest contribution to civilization?  
Ben & Jerry's ice cream flavors. Cherry Garcia, Chunky Monkey, Karamel Sutra and as many more flavors as Ben and Jerry's will invent."

"yet to be" is okay, it makes sense. It's just not conversational phrasing. It's all a question of style.


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## Macunaíma

Em português, se alguma coisa ficou por haver, por fazer, etc, isso significa que essa coisa nunca houve, nunca foi feita. Não implica que será feita, ou mesmo que é possível que seja feita um dia, ainda que se queira - como é o caso aqui, já que não pode mais haver novos heterônimos de Pessoa.

Recorrendo a uns versos célebres do próprio:



> Ó mar salgado, quanto do teu sal
> São lágrimas de Portugal!
> Por te cruzarmos, quantas mães choraram,
> Quantos filhos em vão rezaram!
> Quantas noivas ficaram *por casar*
> Para que fosses nosso, ó mar!
> 
> Valeu a pena? Tudo vale a pena
> Se a alma não é pequena.
> Quem quer passar além do Bojador
> Tem que passar além da dor.
> Deus ao mar o perigo e o abismo deu,
> Mas nele é que espelhou o céu.


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## GamblingCamel

Thanks, Mac.
PT speakers > Any ideas as to how Vanda could re-title this thread?


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## J. Bailica

GamblingCamel;10945103."
 
"yet to be" is okay said:
			
		

> Ah, certo. E quantas vezes o estilo não é tudo! [para usar um exemplo de 'não explitivo', ou lá o que é]
> 
> Então, cá vai outra sugestão, pegando na expressão 'por casar', do poema que trouxe Macuinaíma: 'without marrying'; pode usar-se?
> 
> No caso do 'por haver' seria 'without being' ou 'without existing', mas parce que soa mal, não sei.
> 
> Quanto a dar um título novo, não me lembro de nada. Se ninguém inventar nada, será uma coisa que fica _por fazer_ .
> 
> Só uma nota: nem sempre por + verbo tem este sentido de algo que não acontece, quando seria de supor que pudesse acontecer. Ex: _Por morrer uma andorinha não acaba a primavera - _aqui, '_por'_ é qualquer coisa como '_(Just) because'._


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## joaosilva

Na frase, _haja havidos_ corresponde ao Pretérito Perfeito Composto do Conjuntivo, só que é usado o verbo haver como auxiliar em lugar do ter. Portanto, acho que faz mais sentido dizer *had been* pois é referido algo num passado que não afecta o presente nem o futuro e que além do mais é precisamente o motivo do uso posterior do _por haver_, para abrir o leque de possibilidades (haver outros heterónimos) desde esse passado até ao futuro.
Se o *as many more as have been* tem a capacidade de abranger todo o espectro (desde esse passado até um futuro) não faz sentido acrescentar mais nada. Ficaria simplesmente *and as many more as have been.*
A outra opção seria *and as many more as had been or yet to be.* excepto se o GC ou outro nativo considerar  a frase inconveniente.

Quanto ao possível nome que lhe poderia pôr a Vanda...
F. Pessoa, to have been or not to have been...


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## J. Bailica

joaosilva said:


> Quanto ao possível nome que lhe poderia pôr a Vanda...
> F. Pessoa, to have been or not to have been...


 

_To have been or not to have been, that is the title!_


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## Macunaíma

joaosilva said:


> Na frase, _haja havidos_ corresponde ao Pretérito Perfeito Composto do Conjuntivo, só que é usado o verbo haver como auxiliar em lugar do ter.



Discordo. Se assim fosse, *havido *estaria no singular, uma vez que é verbo impessoal. A frase falta uma vírgula:

_



			Alberto Caeiro, Ricardo Reis, Álvaro de Campos, Fernando Pessoa, e quantos mais haja*,* havidos [existentes] ou por haver.
		
Click to expand...

_


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## machadinho

Macunaíma said:


> Discordo. Se assim fosse, *havido *estaria no singular, uma vez que é verbo impessoal. A frase falta uma vírgula:


Tem razão, Macu! Vou até riscar o meu _post_ acima.


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## joaosilva

OK... Quem não arrisca não petisca...

Encontrei o livro: An introduction to Fernando Pessoa: modernism and the paradoxes of authorship Por Darlene Joy Sadlier

e nele traduzem:
"...and as many more as have been or will be"


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## marcolinocro

Obrigado a todos !!


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