# We close until 9



## uRbAnlP

This is probably a spanish question after all, but I was always puzzled by the translation of it.

La frase completa dice: *"Don't you worry about it, actually, we close until 10"* se traduce de 2 maneras distintas, pero no se cual seria la mas correcta:

*No se preocupe, cerramos hasta las 10.*

o

*No se preocupe, no cerramos hasta las 10.*

Las frases son negativas y la traduccion no siempre es la misma, pero por que siendo 2 frases diferentes se traducen de la misma manera?

Saludos.


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## Juan Jacob Vilalta

uRbAnlP said:


> This is probably a spanish question after all, but I was always puzzled by the translation of it.
> 
> La frase completa dice: *"Don't you worry about it, actually, we close until 10"* se traduce de 2 maneras distintas, pero no se cual seria la mas correcta:
> 
> *No se preocupe, cerramos hasta las 10.  Cerramos A las 10.*
> 
> o
> 
> *No se preocupe, no cerramos hasta las 10. No cerramos SINO hasta las 10.*
> 
> Las frases son negativas y la traduccion no siempre es la misma, pero por que siendo 2 frases diferentes se traducen de la misma manera?
> 
> Saludos.


 
Mira, quítate de problemas con esto del *hasta*: cerramos a las 10, y ya está.


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## ixo_

uRbAnlP said:


> This is probably a spanish question after all, but I was always puzzled by the translation of it.
> 
> La frase completa dice: *"Don't you worry about it, actually, we close until 10"* se traduce de 2 maneras distintas, pero no se cual seria la mas correcta:
> 
> *No se preocupe, cerramos hasta las 10.*
> 
> o
> 
> *No se preocupe, no cerramos hasta las 10.*
> 
> Las frases son negativas y la traduccion no siempre es la misma, pero por que siendo 2 frases diferentes se traducen de la misma manera?
> 
> Saludos.


Hola *uRbAnlP.* A mí la frase en inglés me suena mal.

"Don't you worry about it, we *don't* close until 10" tendría mucho más sentido.

Si ha querido decir que no abren hasta las 10, entonces sería posible:

"Don't you worry about it, *we're closed* until 10".

Pero lo de "we close until 10", al menos por estos lados, no suena nada bien.


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## workingonit

"We don't close until 10:00" = Estamos abiertos hasta las 10:00; entonces cerramos.

"We're closed until 10:00" = Estamos cerrados hasta las 10:00; entonces estamos abiertos.

"We close until 10:00" = Cerramos (a algún hora), y no abremos hasta las 10:00.  Esta frase debe seguir otra para tener buen sentido:  We're open each day until 6:00 pm, and then we close until 10:00.


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## neal41

uRbAnlP said:


> This is probably a spanish question after all, but I was always puzzled by the translation of it.
> 
> La frase completa dice: *"Don't you worry about it, actually, we close until 10"* se traduce de 2 maneras distintas, pero no se cual seria la mas correcta:
> 
> *No se preocupe, cerramos hasta las 10.*
> 
> o
> 
> *No se preocupe, no cerramos hasta las 10.*
> 
> Las frases son negativas y la traduccion no siempre es la misma, pero por que siendo 2 frases diferentes se traducen de la misma manera?
> 
> Saludos.


 
La oración en inglés es incorrecta. Tiene que ser

Don't you worry, we don't close until 10:00.

Mi opinión es que las 2 oraciónes en español son correctas y tienen el mismo significado. ¿Es así?


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## workingonit

No es incorrecta la phrase en inglés, "Don't you worry about it, actually, we close until 10." 

En español, esa frase se traduce asi:

No se preocupe de eso; cerramos hasta las 10:00.  

Pero como ya he dicho, es mas claro decirlo así:  Estamos abiertos hasta las ___; entonces cerramos hasta las 10:00.


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## uRbAnlP

Gracias a todos.

Aunque creo que seria mejor decir "We close at 10" instead of "We close until 10" pero tendría que tomar en cuenta la connotación de la frase completa. Ahora sí puedo preguntar por que las 2 frases en Español significan lo mismo.

Esto lo leí en un libro, y pense que se diría de una manera pero tambien se podía decir de otra. Ademas no mucha gente usa ese tipo de lenguaje formal cuando se habla con alguna persona que conoces... En fin.

Tal vez mi pregunta tenia otro fondo literario mas complejo. Llevare esta pregunta a los foros en Espanol.


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## elprofe

En castellano no es lo mismo:
"cerramos hasta las 10" que "cerramos a las 10", de hecho, tienen significados totalmente opuestos.
1-Cerramos hasta las 10" = el bar está cerrado, y cuando son las 10, abren hasta no se sabe cuando.
2- Cerramos a las 10 = el bar está abierto, y cuando son las 10:00 se cierra.


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## uRbAnlP

elprofe said:


> En castellano no es lo mismo:
> "cerramos hasta las 10" que "cerramos a las 10", de hecho, tienen significados totalmente opuestos.
> 1-Cerramos hasta las 10" = el bar está cerrado, y cuando son las 10, abren hasta no se sabe cuando.
> 2- Cerramos a las 10 = el bar está abierto, y cuando son las 10:00 se cierra.



No, las frases en cuestion son:

Cerramos hasta las 10

y

No cerramos hasta las 10.


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## elprofe

pues entonces...
Cerramos hasta las 10 : el bar está cerrado, y a las 10 abren.
No cerramos hasta las 10: el bar está abierto, y a las 10 cierran

Date cuenta de que " no cerramos hasta las 10" es lo mismo que "cerramos a las 10"


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## Juan Jacob Vilalta

Con todo respeto, creo que te estás ahogando en un vaso de agua.
Las 2 frases significan exactamente lo mismo.
El *hasta *presta a confusión porque se utiliza incorrectamente.
Cerramos a las 10, y ya está.


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## elprofe

No se está usando incorrectamente ...
Son 2 formas de decir lo mismo, una más liosa que la otra...


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## neal41

uRbAnlP said:


> No, las frases en cuestion son:
> 
> Cerramos hasta las 10
> 
> y
> 
> No cerramos hasta las 10.


 
Tienes razón.

Eres parlante nativo del español de México. En México ¿se usan las 2 frases o sólo una? Y dejando a un lado consideraciones teóricas, si las dos se usan, ¿tienen el mismo significado o no? En las lenguas es muy normal poder decir algo de 2 maneras, pero en este caso en inglés "We close until 10:00" no se usa, por lo menos en mi dialecto.


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## elprofe

We close until 10:00 = Cerramos hasta las 10:00
Es correcta pero no es la forma más natural de decirlo.

We are closed until 10:00 = Abrimos a las 10:00 (estamos cerrados hasta las 10:00)
We don't close until 10:00 = No cerramos hasta las 10:00


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## Sköll

neal41 said:


> pero en este caso en inglés "We close until 10:00" no se usa, por lo menos en mi dialecto.


   No sé cuál es tu dialecto pero en mío tampoco.


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## chamyto

No sé, until a mí no me encaja, aunque tal vez me equivoque.

Yo usaría we close_ up to/ at_ 10:00

???


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## workingonit

Sköll posted: 

Re: We close until 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by neal41  
pero en este caso en inglés "We close until 10:00" no se usa, por lo menos en mi dialecto.
No sé cuál es tu dialecto pero en mío tampoco. 
-------
Sí, se usa esa construcción en inglés.  Por ejemplo, algunas tiendas cierran al mediodía para que los empleados pueden almorzar.  Si alguien les pregunte las horas que esta abierta la tienda, pueden decirle, "We're open from 9:00 until noon; _we close until 1:00_ for lunch, and then we're open until 9:00 pm."

Neal41 and Sköll, don't people ever say it that way where you live?


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## neal41

workingonit said:


> Sköll posted:
> 
> Re: We close until 9
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by neal41
> pero en este caso en inglés "We close until 10:00" no se usa, por lo menos en mi dialecto.
> No sé cuál es tu dialecto pero en mío tampoco.
> -------
> Sí, se usa esa construcción en inglés. Por ejemplo, algunas tiendas cierran al mediodía para que los empleados pueden almorzar. Si alguien les pregunte las horas que esta abierta la tienda, pueden decirle, "We're open from 9:00 until noon; _we close until 1:00_ for lunch, and then we're open until 9:00 pm."
> 
> Neal41 and Sköll, don't people ever say it that way where you live?


 
Prefiero "we are closed until 1:00 for lunch" pero "we close until 1:00 for lunch" es posible. Lo importante es que el significado de tu ejemplo y el significado del ejemplo que para mí es imposible ("We close until 10:00) son distintos. En tu ejemplo la tienda está *cerrada* antes de y hasta la hora mencionada mientras que en mi ejemplo la tienda está *abierta* antes de y hasta la hora mencionada.

Acabo de hablar con una costaricense y ella dice que las dos formas

Cerramos hasta las 10.
y
No cerramos hasta las 10.

son aceptables pero que la primera es más común y más normal. Eso es consistente con mis observaciones en México.

Como ha dicho Juan Jacob, es posible evitar problemas diciendo "Cerramos a las 10.", pero el propósito de este foro es explorar la lengua en toda la amplitud en que de veras se habla.


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## ManPaisa

uRbAnlP said:


> *No se preocupe, cerramos hasta las 10.*
> 
> *No se preocupe, no cerramos hasta las 10.*
> 
> Las frases son negativas y la traduccion no siempre es la misma, pero por que siendo 2 frases diferentes se traducen de la misma manera?


 
El problema radica en el uso de _*hasta*_ en el español de México que-- paradójicamente--a veces denota un comienzo y a veces un término.

En castellano estándar la primera dice que abren a las 10, y la segunda que cierran a las 10.

En inglés se deben traducir así:
*Don't worry, we'll be closed till 10*
*Don't worry, we don't close until 10*


Para evitar equívocos, es mejor seguir el consejo de Juan Jacob_*:*_
*Abrimos a las 10*
*Cerramos a las 10*
Así no hay confusión.


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## uRbAnlP

ManPaisa said:


> El problema radica en el uso de _*hasta*_ en el español de México que-- paradójicamente--a veces denota un comienzo y a veces un término.
> 
> En castellano estándar la primera dice que abren a las 10, y la segunda que cierran a las 10.
> 
> En inglés se deben traducir así:
> *Don't worry, we'll be closed till 10*
> *Don't worry, we don't close until 10*
> 
> 
> Para evitar equívocos, es mejor seguir el consejo de Juan Jacob_*:*_
> *Abrimos a las 10*
> *Cerramos a las 10*
> Así no hay confusión.



Ya me habian convencido de que "We don't close until 10" no esta bien dicho, y que la palabra "Hasta" esta siendo mal usada...

The word Until/Hasta is used in everything BUT this case? I've never had a problem with such arrangement of words in a phrase but it seems that the problem covers both languages.

For instance, I could say:

*"Abriremos hasta que se vayan"  -  "We'll open until they go away"

"No abriremos hasta que se vayan"  -  "We won't open until they go away"*

Sort of like that...


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## Sköll

uRbAnlP said:


> Ya me habian convencido de que "We don't close until 10" no esta bien dicho



It sounds perfectly idiomatic to me.


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## workingonit

"We don't close until 10" is perfectly good English.  Quiere decir que nos quedamos abiertos hasta las 10: cerramos a las 10, y no cerramos antes de las 10.


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## panglos

neal41 said:


> Prefiero "we are closed until 1:00 for lunch" pero "we close until 1:00 for lunch" es posible. Lo importante es que el significado de tu ejemplo y el significado del ejemplo que para mí es imposible ("We close until 10:00) son distintos. En tu ejemplo la tienda está *cerrada* antes de y hasta la hora mencionada mientras que en mi ejemplo la tienda está *abierta* antes de y hasta la hora mencionada.
> 
> Acabo de hablar con una costaricense y ella dice que las dos formas
> 
> Cerramos hasta las 10.
> y
> No cerramos hasta las 10.
> 
> son aceptables pero que la primera es más común y más normal. Eso es consistente con mis observaciones en México.
> 
> Como ha dicho Juan Jacob, es posible evitar problemas diciendo "Cerramos a las 10.", pero el propósito de este foro es explorar la lengua en toda la amplitud en que de veras se habla.



Las dos expresiones podrán utilizarse, pero en contextos distintos.

El significado de _no cerramos hasta las 10_ es opuesto a _cerramos hasta las 10_. Pero ambos podrían utilizarse en la misma conversación dependiendo de si en el momento de la conversación el lugar está abierto o cerrado, o de si entre la hora actual y las 10 habrá un periodo en que el lugar esté cerrado o no.

Si el lugar está abierto y va a permanecer abierto, entonces es _no cerramos hasta las 10_, y el interlocutor podrá irse para volver posteriormente, encontrándose el lugar aún abierto.

Si el lugar está o va a estar cerrado antes de las 10:

- _No cerramos hasta las 10_: Después de abrir de nuevo, permanecerá abierto hasta las 10. _Por la tarde, abrimos a las 5 y no cerramos hasta las 10_.

- _Cerramos hasta las 10_: El lugar permanecerá cerrado hasta las 10 y será entonces cuando se vuelva a abrir. _Por la noche no damos servicio, cerramos hasta las 10 de la mañana_.


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## ixo_

uRbAnlP said:


> Ya me habian convencido de que "We don't close until 10" no esta bien dicho


"We don't close until 10" is totally fine. "We close until 10" is the dubious sentence.


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## elprofe

Yo creo que pasa lo mismo con las frases en castellano que en inglés.
"We close until 10", es correcto, al igual que "cerramos hasta las 10".
Pero normalmente se dice (y queda más natural) "abrimos a las 10" o "We are open from 10"
La última frase que está en inglés no estoy muy seguro, pero supongo que se dirá así.


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## ixo_

En español no sé, pero "We close until 10", sin más, suena mal en inglés, al menos donde yo vivo.

El verbo se refiere a la acción de cerrar la tienda, por eso no tiene sentido decir "we close *until*..." a menos que, como se mencionó en otro post, ya se haya dicho algo así como:



workingonit said:


> We're open each day until 6:00 pm, and then we close until 10:00


...when we open again.


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## ixo_

Additional thought: maybe "cerramos hasta las 10" sounds okay in Spanish because it's normal to use the simple present tense in that way, but in English you would usually say "we are closed until".


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## workingonit

In phrasing my examples, I was considering the grammatical structures involved rather than the time given in the original example.  To illustrate the grammatical structure in a way that people could understand it more easily, I created a more typical example, in which a business is closed for lunch.  There are, however, many businesses that do not open until 10 am.  It also seems conceivable to me that a particular night club might not open until 10 pm--although I do not go to night clubs, so what do I know!

(side note:  the exclamation point can be used in a "question" such as "What do I know?" in this sort of context, where the actual intention is like that of a statement of fact:  "But then, I don't know much about night clubs!"  The speaker is not asking someone else to evaluate his knowledge; in effect, he is making a statement.)

Regarding the grammatical aspects of "We close until" or "We're closed until," both are good English; and both mean that the business is closed for some unspecified time period prior to the given time.  "We close until" refers to an ongoing routine (Every day we close until...), while "We're closed until" can also refer to a one-time instance (We're closed now, and we will remain closed until...).

I believe the focus of the original question is the use of "until," which of course can be used with many verbs:  "I'm at work until 5" or "I work until 5"  is the same as "I don't get off work until 5."  "The doctor is (or will be) out of the office until Thursday" = "The doctor is not in the office, but he will be back Thursday."

As others have stated, when the verb is "close," the phrase typically refers to a business:  "We're closed for the holidays until January 1."  "They're closed until 11 am on Saturdays."


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## swift

Hola:

No sé si alguien ya lo mencionó. Si es así, ofrezco mis disculpas por la repetición. Hay algo interesante en el enunciado "cerramos hasta las 10": transmite la idea de que los propietarios del negocio cierran constantemente durante el intervalo que se extiende desde la hora de apertura hasta las diez. Lo mismo se puede decir de este otro enunciado: el señor Corrales da consulta hasta las diez.

Saludos,


swift


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## Sköll

swift said:


> Hola:
> 
> No sé si alguien ya lo mencionó. Si es así, ofrezco mis disculpas por la repetición. Hay algo interesante en el enunciado "cerramos hasta las 10": transmite la idea de que los propietarios del negocio cierran constantemente durante el intervalo que se extiende desde la hora de apertura hasta las diez. Lo mismo se puede decir de este otro enunciado: el señor Corrales da consulta hasta las diez.
> 
> Saludos,
> 
> 
> swift



Sí, transmite la misma idea en inglés.


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## ixo_

In the original sentence, someone is being told not to worry because they close the shop "until" a certain time.
In that context, "we close until", although grammatically correct if referring to the habitual action of the shop being closed at that time (otherwise incorrect as "closing" a shop is not an ongoing process like working in an office, you close the shop and it's closed until being opened again), I personally wouldn't say it that way, and it seems 5 other posters in this thread wouldn't either.

Forgetting the "until" for a moment:

*Cerramos *los domingos = *We're closed* on Sundays

...would be the most common way to say that sentence in each language.


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## workingonit

"We close until..." is not only grammatically correct; it's a commonly used construction, at least hereabouts.  It is not taken to mean that we continue performing the action (of closing the shop) until the stated time; it is understood to mean that the shop will remain closed until that time.


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## ixo_

Well, according to the other English-speaking (both American) contributors to this thread:



neal41 said:


> La oración en inglés es incorrecta.





neal41 said:


> pero en este caso en inglés "We close until 10:00" no se usa, por lo menos en mi dialecto.





Sköll said:


> No sé cuál es tu dialecto pero en mío tampoco.


Although neal41 later said that he would *prefer *to say it a different way.

To me the sentence sounds like it may have been translated directly from Spanish (I'm still not sure if that's the case).

But anyway, depending on the intended meaning, "don't worry, we close until 10" is grammatically correct, yes, but at least where I live it definitely isn't a commonly used construction.


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## workingonit

Interesting.  So in the UK, nobody would say "We close until 1:00 for lunch" when asked about their business hours?


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## neal41

workingonit said:


> Interesting. So in the UK, nobody would say "We close until 1:00 for lunch" when asked about their business hours?


 
I live a lot closer to California than the Brits do.  I would normally say "We are closed until 1:00 for lunch" rather than your version.

The sentence originally under discussion was "We close until 10:00".  I and others said that this sentence is not acceptable in English, that is, in the dialect that we speak.  You changed the example by adding 'for lunch' and in so doing made it for me marginally acceptable.

Why did it become marginally acceptable.  I am not sure.  Language is a very complex phenomenon.  The reason may be as follows:

If you say "We close for lunch -- until 1:00" where the dashes represent a slight pause in the spoken language, that sentence is for me fully acceptable.  It is a shortened version of "We close for lunch and we remain closed until 1:00."  If you leave out the pause you really haven't changed it all that much, and if you move 'until 1:00' forward it may be that the mind regards it as meaning what my sentence with dashes means.

It would be more meaningful and relevant to restrict our discussion to the original sentence "We close until 10:00."

Yesterday I was speaking to a Mexican and I said, "Hasta noviembre tiene cita" meaning "He doesn't have an appointment until November".  It then occurred to me to ask him which is more common or more nomral

Hasta noviembre tiene cita.
or
No tiene cita hasta noviembre.

According to the Mexican both are normal and they mean the same thing.  He declined to say that one was more common than the other.


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## Sköll

neal41 said:


> Why did it become marginally acceptable.  I am not sure.  Language is a very complex phenomenon.  The reason may be as follows:
> 
> If you say "We close for lunch -- until 1:00" where the dashes represent a slight pause in the spoken language, that sentence is for me fully acceptable.  It is a shortened version of "We close for lunch and we remain closed until 1:00."  If you leave out the pause you really haven't changed it all that much, and if you move 'until 1:00' forward it may be that the mind regards it as meaning what my sentence with dashes means.



I was wondering the same thing, but couldn't put my finger on it.


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## workingonit

To me, "we are closed until 1:00 for lunch" refers only to the present instance, while if you say "we close until 1:00 for lunch," it is clear that this is something we do every day.


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## neal41

workingonit said:


> To me, "we are closed until 1:00 for lunch" refers only to the present instance, while if you say "we close until 1:00 for lunch," it is clear that this is something we do every day.


 
It appears to me that you and I are really talking about 2 different things. In message # 3 you said

"We close until 10:00" = Cerramos (a algún hora), y no abremos hasta las 10:00.

Your example with the phrase 'until 1:00 for lunch' is consistent with what you said in message # 3. The store is closed prior to the indicated hour and at that hour it opens.

In the original sentence "Don't you worry about it, actually, we close until 10:00", the meaning is different. The store is open prior to the indicated hour and at that hour it closes. When I say that "we close until 10:00" is ungrammatical (meaning unacceptable, not in fact used), I am thinking primarily about the meaning indicated in this paragraph.

However, I would also not say "we close until 10:00" with the meaning that you give in message # 3 and without any other phrases like 'for lunch'.


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## NewdestinyX

I find it interesting that this thread has gone on for this long. 

Both "We close until 9" (without any other words or phrases) and "We are closed until 9"(without any other words or phrases) are perfect English but they mean slightly different things. Although language always permits the ability for overlap of meaning between 2 sentences like this.

Strictly speaking and I think some others may have said this already..:
"We close until 9." - refers to something that happens as a regular operating practice of the establishment. It's their habitual practice. It could appear on a sign or placard and it refers to a time at which they 're-open' their establishment 'after' it's been closed for a period.

"We are closed until 9" is something someone would say in the present to a person who asks the establishment about their hours on that given day.

As I said -- before anyone blasts me - there 'is' some overlap. I agree already.. But those who are saying 'we close until 9' is ungrammatical or less common or sub-standard English - simply are wrong. They are simple different sentences with different meaning. Any cursory search of Google will prove out that both are very common.

Chao,
Grant


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## Forero

No creo que pueda traducirse "We close until 10" como "No cerramos hasta las 10." Es más común decir "Don't worry. We don't close until 10" que decir "Don't worry. We close until 10", pero son distintas frases válidas.

Veo dos distintas interpretaciones para "We close until 10":

_We close until 10_. = "We always close until 10."
_We close until 10._ = "We are going to close until 10."

Todo depende del contexto.

¿De qué es que tememos que alguien se preocupara? Si tememos que se procupara de que pudiéramos cerrar por un tiempo demasiado corto o de que pudiéramos reabrir demasiado pronto, entonces conviene la frase tal y como está.


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## JamesM

workingonit said:


> To me, "we are closed until 1:00 for lunch" refers only to the present instance, while if you say "we close until 1:00 for lunch," it is clear that this is something we do every day.


 
That doesn't seem very clear to me. I would find this odd, and I'm also from California. 

"We close from 12:00 to 1:00 for lunch" would make sense to me, but "We close until 1:00 for lunch" leaves me wondering what the "from" time is.  If it's habitual I expect the person to be telling me the start and end times, not just the end time.


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## Forero

I don't feel the need to specify a closing time to say "we close":

_We close our doors until 10._ = "We close our doors (whenever we close them) and keep them closed until 10.

_We close until 10._ = "We close (whenever we close), and we stay closed until 10."

_(At four o'clock every Thursday) we close until ten.

_


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## JamesM

Forero said:


> I don't feel the need to specify a closing time to say "we close":
> 
> _We close our doors until 10._ = "We close our doors (whenever we close them) and keep them closed until 10.
> 
> _We close until 10._ = "We close (whenever we close), and we stay closed until 10."
> 
> _(At four o'clock every Thursday) we close until ten._


 
Perhaps it's an individual thing. To me, "we close our doors" is talking about the process of closing them. "We are closed until 10" sounds perfectly normal to me, but "we close until 10" sounds very odd, just as "we open until 10" would sound very odd to me. "We close at X" or "We are closed until X" are the two I would expect to hear.

I'll look for some examples. It may just be something I haven't heard or haven't been aware that I've heard.

[edit] Using bing, I didn't find too many examples where a "from" time or date wasn't mentioned.  Here are a few.  They still sound odd to me.  I'm not even sure what the first one is meant to express:

http://www.thebiggestloser.com.au/forums/thread.jspa?threadID=99504&tstart=30&start=15
I run a small business (and have for some time) and we close until 11-12am on ANZAC day. If you're not a public hospital don't really understand why you HAVE to be open all day - we choose to be open.

http://www.sfgallery143.com/blog/
Come by before we close until December. We have even added more items to the store to keep things lively and new.

http://apps.komen.org/forums/tm.aspx?m=175123&mpage=13
I still feel a little spacey today but I am here at work closing out the year end.  We close until the New Year. 

http://tumbleweedsandthyme.typepad.com/tumbleweedsandthyme/2007/12/index.html
I have time off from work now (we close until April), yet my wheels continue to go round in forward motion.


----------



## Loob

uRbAnlP said:


> This is probably a spanish question after all, but I was always puzzled by the translation of it.
> 
> La frase completa dice: *"Don't you worry about it, actually, we close until 10"* se traduce de 2 maneras distintas, pero no se cual seria la mas correcta:
> 
> *No se preocupe, cerramos hasta las 10.*
> 
> o
> 
> *No se preocupe, no cerramos hasta las 10.*
> 
> Las frases son negativas y la traduccion no siempre es la misma, pero por que siendo 2 frases diferentes se traducen de la misma manera?
> 
> Saludos.


I've just read the whole thread, and it seems to me that uRbAnlP's question is actually 'the wrong way round'.

The underlying issue appears to be that in Mexican (and Costa Rican) Spanish, *cerramos hasta las 10 *and* no cerramos hasta las 10* have the same meaning: they both mean _*we don't close until 10*_ {= _we don't close before 10/we close at 10/we are open until 10_}.

Then somebody - presumably a speaker of Mexican Spanish - has translated *cerramos hasta las 10* (meaning _*we don't close until 10*) _as *we close until 10**.* Which (a) is an incorrect translation (b) produces a sentence which is not natural English, except in the very restricted circumstances which workingonit has outlined.

URbAnlP, I think you're right - this is "a Spanish question after all"


----------



## uRbAnlP

Loob said:
			
		

> URbAnlP, I think you're right - this is "a Spanish question after all"



The fact that "We close until (some given time)" is widely used, yet not a lot of people have heard about it, makes me wonder the big question... why.

One thing is for sure, I'm not translating anything anymore, I'm trying to understand the specific circumstances where the use of the word "Hasta/Until" have different meanings in different parts of the world.

*We're closed until 10.
Meaning store is closed now but it'll open at 10.

We're not closed until 10.
Means store is open and will close at 10.

We don't close until 10.
Means store is not going to be open after 10.

We close until 10.
Same thing, although, some people might argue that this particular sentence is grammatically incorrenct.*


----------



## uRbAnlP

I did a Google search of the phrase "We close until/we don't close until" and found interesting examples using this arrangement of words.

      - This coming week will be my last week at the store! You will see me Wednesday through Sunday, and then we close until August 1.
http://www.raredevice.net/blog/?m=200707

      - We don't close until the last customer leaves.
http://es.miami.com/club-pisco-article

- Abrimos de 9:00 y cerramos hasta que se vaya el ultimo cliente.
http://es.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080627190521AAaT8zU"]http://es.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080627190521AAaT8zU




The deepest question here why is that by using the word until/hasta both sentences mean the same thing.


----------



## Loob

uRbAnlP said:


> The fact that "We close until (some given time)" is widely used, yet not a lot of people have heard about it, makes me wonder the big question... why.
> 
> One thing is for sure, I'm not translating anything anymore, I'm trying to understand the specific circumstances where the use of the word "Hasta/Until" have different meanings in different parts of the world.
> 
> *We're closed until 10.*
> *Meaning store is closed now but it'll open at 10.*
> 
> *We're not closed until 10.*
> *Means store is open and will close at 10.*
> 
> *We don't close until 10.*
> *Means store is not going to be open after 10. Has the same meaning as We're not closed until 10, except that the verb tense implies habitual action.*
> 
> *We close until 10.*
> *Same thing, although, some people might argue that this particular sentence is grammatically incorrenct. **No,* _We close until 10 _*means we are closed and we will open at 10 o'clock, not before. Again, the verb tense implies habitual action.*


 


uRbAnlP said:


> The deepest question here why is that by using the word until/ hasta both sentences mean the same thing.


That seems to be the case only in some varieties of Spanish.


uRbAnlP said:


> The deepest question here why is that by using the word until /hasta both sentences mean the same thing.


They don't mean the same thing in English - see above.


----------



## NewdestinyX

uRbAnlP said:


> The deepest question here why is that by using the word until/hasta both sentences mean the same thing.


They don't mean the same thing. That's just it. They transmit something completely different. It's true that 10 o'clock is still the time that the availability of store changes -- but the two are completely different in what's transmitted and a speaker would not use them interchangeably. Loob's explanation in post #47 is exactly right.

And again - "we close until 10" is 'perfect' English. A few people on the forum have said it sounds odd to them but only 1 person has sugggested it's incorrect grammar. And they are wrong. So let's take that off the table.

Chao,
Grant


----------



## neal41

NewdestinyX said:


> And again - "we close until 10" is 'perfect' English. A few people on the forum have said it sounds odd to them but only 1 person has sugggested it's incorrect grammar. And they are wrong. So let's take that off the table.
> 
> Chao,
> Grant


 
Let's be a bit less dogmatic. Surely one of the things that this forum teaches us is that the concept of 'dialect' is real. If the speakers of a given dialect do not say X, then X is ungrammatical, unacceptable, wrong in that dialect. If you and the people you routinely communicate with say "We close until 10", then it is correct in your dialect. However, since various people have said that it does not occur or that it sounds strange in their dialect, it probably should not be recommended to learners of the language, and it probably does not qualify as being 'perfect'.

It appears to me that Loob has captured the essence of the matter.


----------



## NewdestinyX

neal41 said:


> Let's be a bit less dogmatic. Surely one of the things that this forum teaches us is that the concept of 'dialect' is real. If the speakers of a given dialect do not say X, then X is ungrammatical, unacceptable, wrong in that dialect. If you and the people you routinely communicate with say "We close until 10", then it is correct in your dialect. However, since various people have said that it does not occur or that it sounds strange in their dialect, it probably should not be recommended to learners of the language, and it probably does not qualify as being 'perfect'.
> 
> It appears to me that Loob has captured the essence of the matter.


I'm sorry to disagree Neal. But grammatical correctness isn't a matter of opinion. It's a matter of established precedents for the use of syntax by those who prescribe and describe usage (in academia). The 'fact' is that 'We close until 10' follows all the rules of proper syntax - subject + verb + complements. So we should not give the non natives the idea that at anywhere in the English speaking world it's 'incorrect'. It simply isn't. Nor is it strange or far fetched as some have promoted here. Nor is it more American than British or vice versa.

Now "usage preference" is another matter entirely and I agree with you that people tend to 'find/deem correct' some usages over others. And a foreigner needs to learn a 'standard' English. To that end.. I will concede that if they used 'We are closed until 10' they would be understood fully anywhere in the English speaking world without any ambiguity. So I think we'd probably agree there. But there should also learn that 'We close until 10' is 'not' a regional usage as you're suggesting and it means something completely different than the other one.

Chao,
Grant


----------



## Forero

Encontré esto en el DRAE bajo "Hasta":

*3.     * adv. t._ Am. Cen._,_ Ec._ y_ Méx._ No antes de. _Cierran hasta las nueve.

_Entonces:

"No se preocupe, cerramos hasta las 10" = _Don't worry, we don't close before 10._ [Am. Cen., Ec. y Méx.]


----------



## JamesM

uRbAnlP said:


> The fact that "We close until (some given time)" is widely used, yet not a lot of people have heard about it, makes me wonder the big question... why.


 
I don't think there's evidence that this is widely used.  If you said "At 4 p.m. we close until 6 to get ready for the dinner rush" I would understand you and wouldn't think twice about it.  To say "we close until 6" with no other context is not familiar to me at all and doesn't seem to be very common on the internet, either.


----------



## Forero

To me, to _close_ means to change availability from "open" to "closed", and  generally to remain closed for a time thereafter. Thus "we close until X" presupposes being "open" first and is not the same thing as "We are closed until X" which does not presuppose being "open" first.

If we close on Friday and stay closed until Monday, I don't say "We are open Monday through Friday but we close on Saturday and Sunday" because "... we are closed on Saturday and Sunday" makes more sense to me, but I might very well say "At evening each day, we close until the next day, except on Friday evening, when we close until Monday."


----------



## NewdestinyX

Forero said:


> To me, to _close_ means to change availability from "open" to "closed", and  generally to remain closed for a time thereafter. Thus "we close until X" presupposes being "open" first and is not the same thing as "We are closed until X" which does not presuppose being "open" first.
> 
> If we close on Friday and stay closed until Monday, I don't say "We are open Monday through Friday but we close on Saturday and Sunday" because "... we are closed on Saturday and Sunday" makes more sense to me, but I might very well say "At evening each day, we close until the next day, except on Friday evening, when we close until Monday."


Well explained. More context certainly makes it clearer - I will acknowledge that. But I felt I needed to 'pull us back from the edge' when several were trying to say this is 'uncommon English'. It isn't that - for sure.

Grant


----------



## JamesM

What are you basing that statement on, though, NewDestinyX? I do think it's uncommon English to use it outside of a context that includes the starting point of the closure, and I haven't seen anything to change my opinion.  If I called a store at 8 in the morning and asked if they were open and got the response, "We close until 10" I would find that to be a very strange response, and definitely uncommon.


----------



## workingonit

uRbAnlP said:


> La frase completa dice: *"Don't you worry about it, actually, we close until 10"*



It appeared to me that the statement appeared in the context of a conversation, in which the starting time of the closure had already been established.  I agree that the statement would be unusual (though not ungrammatical) without such context.

With that clarification, I do hope this thread can be put to rest!


----------



## NewdestinyX

JamesM said:


> What are you basing that statement on, though, NewDestinyX? I do think it's uncommon English to use it outside of a context that includes the starting point of the closure, and I haven't seen anything to change my opinion.  If I called a store at 8 in the morning and asked if they were open and got the response, "We close until 10" I would find that to be a very strange response, and definitely uncommon.


My opinion is formed simply by how many signs I've seen it on in my lifetime -- all over the country.. Not just in my area. The sentence needs no other context to be clear, James. Sorry to disagree. I'm just completely baffled by native English speakers saying it's strange.. Sorry -- Not trying to be thickheaded.. Really..


----------



## Forero

I am still curious about _hasta_ seeming to have contradictory meanings.

How do native speakers know which is meant in any given situation?
Does this usage come from Arabic usage of _hatta_, or does it really have a New World origin?


----------



## JamesM

NewdestinyX said:


> My opinion is formed simply by how many signs I've seen it on in my lifetime -- all over the country.. Not just in my area. The sentence needs no other context to be clear, James. Sorry to disagree. I'm just completely baffled by native English speakers saying it's strange.. Sorry -- Not trying to be thickheaded.. Really..


 
I would be very interested in seeing such a sign. I have never seen one.

You are saying that you have seen printed signs that say:

"(We) close until _____ "

That is amazing to me. I can imagine a handwritten note in a store window that is written as "close*d* until 2 p.m." but not "we close until 2 p.m." if an unexpected emergency arose, but I can't imagine it on a printed sign.

Most signs I see are set up this way:

Hours of Operation

Monday ____ to ____
Tuesday ___ to ____

etc.

Can you find an example online of the sign you're referring to? A picture's worth a thousand words, as they say.

As a side note, the original question was about a phrase such as "We close until 10" in conversation, I believe, so we're straying a bit here.


----------



## neal41

Forero said:


> I am still curious about _hasta_ seeming to have contradictory meanings.
> 
> How do native speakers know which is meant in any given situation?
> Does this usage come from Arabic usage of _hatta_, or does it really have a New World origin?


 
Your reference to DRAE was helpful. I looked up 'hasta' in my 1984 DRAE, and the meaning that you cited is not there.

Remember that until very recently language was used almost exclusively within small communities where everyone speaks the same dialect. Only recently do people of different dialects communicate with each other via the internet or even read newspapers from far away places. By 'recently' I really mean 200 years or so.

In Mexico and Central America, "Cerramos hasta las 10:00" and "No cerramos hasta las 10:00" seem to mean the same, so there is no possibility of misunderstanding within that speech area. Just two ways to say the same thing.

Outside of that area the first variant is not used or they have different meanings, so again no possibility of misunderstanding.


----------



## neal41

JamesM said:


> As a side note, the original question was about a phrase such as "We close until 10" in conversation, I believe, so we're straying a bit here.


 
That's an important observation.  Signage is often highly abbreviated and hence not a particularly good indication of how people speak.


----------



## NewdestinyX

JamesM said:


> I would be very interested in seeing such a sign. I have never seen one.
> 
> You are saying that you have seen printed signs that say:
> 
> "(We) close until _____ "
> 
> That is amazing to me. I can imagine a handwritten note in a store window that is written as "close*d* until 2 p.m." but not "we close until 2 p.m." if an unexpected emergency arose, but I can't imagine it on a printed sign.
> 
> Most signs I see are set up this way:
> 
> Hours of Operation
> 
> Monday ____ to ____
> Tuesday ___ to ____
> 
> etc.
> 
> Can you find an example online of the sign you're referring to? A picture's worth a thousand words, as they say.
> 
> As a side note, the original question was about a phrase such as "We close until 10" in conversation, I believe, so we're straying a bit here.


Any Ocean town, James. The Fudge store we frequent in OC New Jersey on the boardwalk.. A Realty company in our area has a plastic sign that says it. Doctor's offices usually close for a two or three hour period. One I saw at my dentist's says "We Close from noon - 3pm Mon-Fri" -- now I know that's 'from' -- but the big issue of this thread is the contrast between 'we're closed' and 'we close'.. If you're saying that the 'until' makes all the difference then I have less examples but still several. Finding a picture wouldn't be easy but not impossible. 

Hey it 'could' be more regional. I travel a bunch and have still seen it in other venues. And 'of course' "we are closed until" in more common but as I've said from the beginning - it means something completely different than 'we close until 10'. When the speaker wants to express something for 'one day' they use "we are closed" - when they want to transmit a daily closing period - they would say 'we close until'. 

James- since they mean something completely different please tell me what 'you' would say to transmit the meaning of a repeated closing that happens every day. I would be very interested to know how you would evpress the difference -- in a 'sign or placard' manner.

Thanks,
Grant


----------



## NewdestinyX

neal41 said:


> That's an important observation.  Signage is often highly abbreviated and hence not a particularly good indication of how people speak.


Agreed. But just the other day I was asking the grounds keeper at our private pool what the hours will be thru the rennovation project to the snack bar. And he said to me, very naturally. "Well we'll close until noon each day through the duration of the project."

Now it's the future tense.. and there's more than just 4 words to the sentence -- but it was the first thins he 'naturally' said.. and it's the only thing 'he would' say to transmit the ongoing daily closing that would happen. There's no syntactic or semantic difference that I can see between "Well we'll close until noon..." and "We close until noon".

Grant


----------



## neal41

NewdestinyX said:


> Agreed. But just the other day I was asking the grounds keeper at our private pool what the hours will be thru the rennovation project to the snack bar. And he said to me, very naturally. "Well we'll close until noon each day through the duration of the project."


 
I regard your sentence as completely acceptable.  Many messages back I tried to fashion an explanation of why a longer sentence like yours is acceptable whereas "We close until 10:00" (meaning that we are now open and that at 10:00 we will close) is for me not acceptable.  Whether or not my explanation was psychologically correct I don't know.

For me the key element in this whole discussion has always been 'until' and 'hasta'.


----------



## Loob

Forero said:


> I am still curious about _hasta_ seeming to have contradictory meanings.
> 
> How do native speakers know which is meant in any given situation?


 
Doesn't it depend on the language variety? I assume that _cerramos hasta las 10_ only means "we don't close until 10" in the varieties listed in your post 51 ie _Am. Cen._,_ Ec._ y_ Méx;_ and that in those varieties it always has that meaning - there is no ambiguity. (That may be a rather big assumption.) Neal41 said this before me, and much better

Probably off-topic aside: I've always found_ hasta_ intriguing, in that it can take a "no expletivo": _no me voy hasta que no llegue = no me voy hasta que llegue_ (more in hasta que no venga and no doubt many other previous threads).

*NewDestinyX/Grant*: you keep saying that there are plenty of examples of signs where "we close until 10" means "we [habitually] close from x o'clock to 10 o'clock". I don't doubt you; but the OP's question was surely about "we close until 10" meaning "no cerramos hasta las 10" - *we don't close until 10*. I still see this as a mis-translation from _Am. Cen._,_ Ec._ y_ Méx_ Spanish to English.


----------



## NewdestinyX

neal41 said:


> I regard your sentence as completely acceptable.  Many messages back I tried to fashion an explanation of why a longer sentence like yours is acceptable whereas "We close until 10:00" (meaning that we are now open and that at 10:00 we will close) is for me not acceptable.


 Yes I remember your thoughts and I see what you mean to a degree that with a longer sentence there's no room for ambiguity.

But -- I have to say that your definition of what it means above (in parentheses) is not at all what it means to me.. So here we go again.. We 'close until' has nothing at all to do with the 'openness' of the establishment.. in fact it means the exact opposite of what you just said.  The store is NOT open and won't open until 10. And more importantly it doesn't really talk about a 'current state' as much as a habit done daily.. But it 'could be an current state' I'm still weighing that one out.

But the store is not open -- at all. Can't imagine how you think it is.. Please explain..  

Grant


----------



## NewdestinyX

Loob said:


> *NewDestinyX/Grant*: you keep saying that there are plenty of examples of signs where "we close until 10" means "we [habitually] close from x o'clock to 10 o'clock". I don't doubt you; but the OP's question was surely about "we close until 10" meaning "no cerramos hasta las 10" - *we don't close until 10*. I still see this as a mis-translation from _Am. Cen._,_ Ec._ y_ Méx_ Spanish to English.


But "we close until 10" could never mean 'we don't close until 10' in English.. therefore it could never be translated to 'no cerramos hasta las 10'. I thought we cleared that up a while back.. But I dont' mind saying it's getting a little convoulted now..  I'm having trouble keeping up..  The Spanish 'hasta' in Mexico blows my mind that it could mean both. But never in English could they mean the same thing.

Chao,
Grant


----------



## Loob

I think, finally, that we agree.


----------



## JamesM

NewdestinyX said:


> Any Ocean town, James. The Fudge store we frequent in OC New Jersey on the boardwalk.. A Realty company in our area has a plastic sign that says it. Doctor's offices usually close for a two or three hour period. One I saw at my dentist's says "We Close from noon - 3pm Mon-Fri" -- now I know that's 'from' -- but the big issue of this thread is the contrast between 'we're closed' and 'we close'.. If you're saying that the 'until' makes all the difference then I have less examples but still several. Finding a picture wouldn't be easy but not impossible.


 
Yes, I am saying the "until" makes all the difference.  To me the issue hasn't been the difference between "we're closed" and "we close" but the difference between "we're closed until" and "we close until". We may have been talking at cross purposes.



> Hey it 'could' be more regional. I travel a bunch and have still seen it in other venues. And 'of course' "we are closed until" in more common but as I've said from the beginning - it means something completely different than 'we close until 10'. When the speaker wants to express something for 'one day' they use "we are closed" - when they want to transmit a daily closing period - they would say 'we close until'.
> 
> James- since they mean something completely different please tell me what 'you' would say to transmit the meaning of a repeated closing that happens every day. I would be very interested to know how you would evpress the difference -- in a 'sign or placard' manner.
> 
> Thanks,
> Grant


 

I would say, "We open at 10" or "we're closed until 10" (or "We stay closed until 10" in the worst case) but never "we close until 10" unless it was in the context of "we are open from 10 to 2 and then we close until 10". In other words, it makes sense when the "close" is related to a specific time (in this case, 2) but not when it is only in relation to an opening time.

If I walk up to a place and someone is standing in front of the door and I say, "Can I go in?" I would never expect "Sorry, we close until 10." It would sound like an odd translation from another language to me.

As one of the earlier posters said, "close" to me is an action, not a state.

To put it another way, "We close until 10" by itself is as odd to me as "We open until 10". Both are unidiomatic.


----------



## NewdestinyX

JamesM said:


> I would say, "We open at 10" or "we're closed until 10" (or "We stay closed until 10" in the worst case) but never "we close until 10" unless it was in the context of "we are open from 10 to 2 and then we close until 10". In other words, it makes sense when the "close" is related to a specific time (in this case, 2) but not when it is only in relation to an opening time.
> 
> As one of the earlier posters said, "close" to me is an action, not a state


The sentence we're studying has 'close' as an action verb - never a state. "We're closed" is a state. "We close until.." is simply is an ellipsis for 'We close (the store) until..." "Close" is still an action verb in the "we close until" examples. That's for certain.



> To put it another way, "We close until 10" by itself is as odd to me as "We open until 10". Both are unidiomatic.


Well James, I don't know what more to say. We must speak different languages my good colleague.  I've given you several examples including one from our pool's ground's keeper -- and you'll just have to take my word for it on the placards I've referenced.. But here are 'many' more for you to sift thru that should prove to you that this is a very common and 'idiomatic', even daily, usage. 

*Google search -- Web* Results *1* - *10* of about *138,000* for *"we close until"*.  
*Web*http://www.google.com/search?q="we+open+until"&hl=en&lr=&tbo=1 Results *1* - *10* of about *370* for *"we open until"*. (this one's obviously much less common and even sounds weird to my ears.. I wonder why... Same syntax)


The first 40 examples or so are all the usage I'm talking about.. The first two, of course, are citations from our thread..  We're famous!!

Thanks for the interchange,
Grant


----------



## goodoldave

Grant, 



Here are the first 10 entries from your Google search.  I really don't see anything there that supports your position.  Most seem to be qualified with another phrase, as other posters have suggested is appropriate.  Others are just run-on sentences or parts of two sentences.  


Also, I asked my chauffeur (who by definition drives around a lot) and he doesn't seem to recall signs that say "We close until X).  He also agrees with the downstairs maid, the chef and the gardener that "We close until X" by itself doesn't sound right to them. 









 Results *1* - *10* of about *138,000* for *"we close until"*.  (*0.08* seconds) 
*Search Results*



*We close until 9 - Page 4 - WordReference Forums*

3 posts - 2 authors - Last post: 4 hours ago
As a side note, the original question was about a phrase such as "_We close until_ 10" in conversation, I believe, so we're straying a bit here. *...*
forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t...page=4 - 4 hours ago - Similar
*We close until 9 - Page 2 - WordReference Forums*

 - [ Translate this page ]20 posts - 9 authors
Prefiero "we are closed until 1:00 for lunch" pero "_we close until_ 1:00 for lunch" es posible. Lo importante es que el significado de tu ejemplo y el *...*
forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1473116...2 - Cached - Similar
More results from forum.wordreference.com »
*Willimantic Food Co-Op - Membership*

Bulk bagging occurs everyday, and each day we need help closing from 1 and half hours before _we close until_ a half hour after close. *...*
www.willimanticfood.coop/membership.shtml - Cached - Similar
*Rare Device / Rare Device / good stuff for you and your home / San ...*

You will see me Wednesday through Sunday,  and then _we close until_ August 1. I will be in San Francisco primarily, but will put a note on this blog when I *...*
www.raredevice.net/blog/?m=200707 - Cached - Similar
*Russian Festival*

Oct 15, 2008 *...* food (including carry out) and recorded music 5:00 pm Opening Procession with festival icon 9:00 pm _We close until_ the following noon *...*
www.russfest.org/ - Cached - Similar
*McGinley Associates P.A. Home Page*

Usually _We Close Until_ 1:00.... Sometimes We're Gone Until 2. We Close About 5:00 PM.... Occasionally As Early As 4.... Many Nights As Late As 10:00 *...*
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From the moment _we close until_ the next morning when we are open again, a triage nurse will be available to answer your questions. *...*
www.ppadocs.com/Pages/PPA-AboutUs.html - Cached - Similar
*Untitled Document*

We have a narrow window from the time _we close until_ our first frost. Typically, the first frost arrives between the 10th and 20th of October. *...*
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We have about five weeks until _we close until_ we actually do close, anything could happen. I'll be staying even closer to my spiritual path. *...*
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Dave


----------



## JamesM

NewdestinyX said:


> The sentence we're studying has 'close' as an action verb - never a state. "We're closed" is a state. "We close until.." is simply is an ellipsis for 'We close (the store) until..." "Close" is still an action verb in the "we close until" examples. That's for certain.


 
Then that's very odd. We spend from now until 10 closing? That would be its meaning as an action verb. If I ask someone in front of a store "Are you open?" and they respond, "No, we close until 10 a.m.", it doesn't make sense to me, even as "we close the store until 10 a.m.". 




> Well James, I don't know what more to say. We must speak different languages my good colleague.  I've given you several examples including one from our pool's ground's keeper -- and you'll just have to take my word for it on the placards I've referenced.. But here are 'many' more for you to sift thru that should prove to you that this is a very common and 'idiomatic', even daily, usage.


 
Not intending any offense, but is English the native language of the person you refer to?


Look at the examples provided. Each of them are basically "...and then we close" followed by "until (something or other)." In other words, the "we close" is referring to a specific point in time. It's not describing a state of being closed...

You will see me Wednesday through Sunday, and _then we close_ until August 1. I will be in San Francisco primarily, but will put a note on this blog when I *...*

We have a narrow window_ from the time we close_ until our first frost.

_*Lunch Time Starts About 11:30.... **Usually We Close Until 1:00....* _
_*Sometimes We're Gone Until 2 *(closest example to your construction, but it refers to a starting time of the closure (11:30))_​ 

Many of the others are "from the time we close until..."​ 


I don't see evidence of "we close until X" being a phrase without reference to a previous time of being open.​


----------



## Forero

JamesM said:


> _*Lunch Time Starts About 11:30.... **Usually We Close Until 1:00....* __*Sometimes We're Gone Until 2 *(closest example to your construction, but it refers to a starting time of the closure (11:30))_


To me, we have here (in bold) three valid sentences, and any one of them is valid and keeps its same meaning whether or not it is accompanied by the other two.

If I say "We take the children until 10:00" or "We go to sleep until 10:00" or "We stop doing business until 10:00" or "We close until 10:00", the verb indicates the initiation of a state (having the children in our care, sleeping, refraining from doing business, or being closed) and "until 10:00" expresses that ten o'clock is the earliest time that state will end. I do not mean that we spend until ten o'clock in the process of taking the children, going to sleep, stopping doing business, or closing. I may or may not specify what time we take the children, go to sleep, stop doing business, or close the shop, depending on whether I have a purpose in so doing. The sentences are to me grammatical and idiomatic.

As far as I know, "We close until 10" never means "We don't close until 10" or "We don't close before 10".

Pero "Cerramos hasta las 10" es otra cosa. Me es curioso, y querría saber si se confunde un poco en los lugares donde se usa para decir que "No cerramos antes de las 10." O ¿siempre se interpreta de la misma manera en esos lugares?


----------



## JamesM

> To me, we have here (in bold) three valid sentences, and any one of them is valid and keeps its same meaning whether or not it is accompanied by the other two.


 
I see what you're saying about the verb initiating a state. I can see the interpretation of "we close until 10" meaning "we close (and then re-open) at 10". I think the difference is that "we close" is a _change _of state, not just an initiation of a state.

I can't imagine saying to someone, "So what are your operating hours?" "Well, we close until 10." 

My question would be: "Do you mean you open at 10?" 

Without the context of when they were open I don't see how this can make sense.

The original context was: "Don't worry! We close until 10." I can't imagine a context where this would make sense and it doesn't make sense to me on its own.  Is this idiomatic to you, Forero?


----------



## Forero

Yes, with a particular interpretation of "Don't worry" (see post #40), the original English sentence made sense to me. I agree that "We close until 10" would not answer "What are your operating hours?" but for me it could serve as an answer to "Are you closing for the rest of the morning?"

Is either "We go to sleep until 10" or "We stop doing business until 10" problematic for you too, or is it just closing and opening for a period of time that you feel requires more context?

From the Spanish translation, I believe the original context was meant to be "Don't you worry about it. Actually, we *don't* close until 10." Before I knew about the "no antes de" meaning of _hasta_ in certain regions, I thought the second translation was wrong and of course "we close until 10" = "cerramos hasta las 10."


----------



## neal41

NewdestinyX said:


> Yes I remember your thoughts and I see what you mean to a degree that with a longer sentence there's no room for ambiguity.
> 
> But -- I have to say that your definition of what it means above (in parentheses) is not at all what it means to me.. So here we go again.. We 'close until' has nothing at all to do with the 'openness' of the establishment.. in fact it means the exact opposite of what you just said.  The store is NOT open and won't open until 10. And more importantly it doesn't really talk about a 'current state' as much as a habit done daily.. But it 'could be an current state' I'm still weighing that one out.
> 
> But the store is not open -- at all. Can't imagine how you think it is.. Please explain..
> 
> Grant


 
You are right about the definition in parentheses.  I got confused.  If you replace what is in parentheses with "meaning that we are now closed and at 10:00 we will open", you will have what I intended to say.  I'm sorry I introduced even more confusion.


----------



## JamesM

Forero said:


> Yes, with a particular interpretation of "Don't worry" (see post #40), the original English sentence made sense to me. I agree that "We close until 10" would not answer "What are your operating hours?" but for me it could serve as an answer to "Are you closing for the rest of the morning?"


 
Hmm... I suppose that's possible but it still sounds odd to me. In the same situation I would expect: "We open back up at 10" or "We're closed only from 8 to 10 and then re-open." "We close until 10" would still really surprise me, even in that context.



> Is either "We go to sleep until 10" or "We stop doing business until 10" problematic for you too, or is it just closing and opening for a period of time that you feel requires more context?


 
I can see someone saying "we go to sleep until 10". I would normally say "We sleep until 10" or "we sleep in until 10" if I meant to emphasize the luxury of the thought.   If it's one event in a series of events, "we go to sleep until 10" makes more sense to me.

"We stop doing business until 10" makes some sense to me but it seems very convoluted, especially without some other context. "We're closed from X to/until 10", "we close from X to 10" or "we're closed until 10" would be normal for me. As a sentence alone "we stop doing business until 10" would catch my ear or eye.

I'll be keeping an ear open for "we close until X" over the next few weeks. Sometimes it takes a conversation like this to make it noticeable for me, but I don't really expect to hear it.



			
				NewDestinyX said:
			
		

> But just the other day I was asking the grounds keeper at our private pool what the hours will be thru the rennovation project to the snack bar. And he said to me, very naturally. "Well we'll close until noon each day through the duration of the project."


 
This, for example, sounds very odd to me. If you don't open until noon, "we close until noon" really, honestly does not make sense to me. To me, you have to be open first (in a day) to close until a certain time. In this situation I would say or expect to hear "Well, we won't open until noon" or "We'll open up at noon" or "We'll stay closed until noon", but I don't see how you can close until noon if you have not yet opened that day. I can see "well, we'll close at 5 p.m. every day until noon the next day." In this same context, I can't see "we'll stop doing business until noon each day". It just doesn't compute for me.


----------



## NewdestinyX

JamesM said:


> Then that's very odd. We spend from now until 10 closing? That would be its meaning as an action verb.


 We have to compare apples and apples, James. That's an entirely different syntax not related at all to the one we're studying. "Close" and "Closing" are completely different words with different application yet 'based' on the same action. Neither are 'states'. "Closed" is a state. Let's focus like a lasar beam, please. This top is hard enough. 


> If I ask someone in front of a store "Are you open?" and they respond, "No, we close until 10 a.m.", it doesn't make sense to me, even as "we close the store until 10 a.m.".


 Again we have to agree to disagree. Makes perfect sense to me and I hear it as I've said. No one learning English should be afraid of this syntax. Because it's rarely used in isolation (in implication or actual).. and that may be the point we agree on and where we've gotten a little off track. As you'll see below -your last paragraph below opened my eyes as to where we've probably been missing each other for the last 30 posts or so. 


> Not intending any offense, but is English the native language of the person you refer to?


Nope. American born native speaker.



> Look at the examples provided. Each of them are basically "...and then we close" followed by "until (something or other)." In other words, the "we close" is referring to a specific point in time. It's not describing a state of being closed...
> 
> You will see me Wednesday through Sunday, and _then we close_ until August 1. I will be in San Francisco primarily, but will put a note on this blog when I *...*
> 
> We have a narrow window_ from the time we close_ until our first frost.
> 
> _*Lunch Time Starts About 11:30.... **Usually We Close Until 1:00....* _
> _*Sometimes We're Gone Until 2 *(closest example to your construction, but it refers to a starting time of the closure (11:30))_​
> Many of the others are "from the time we close until..."
> 
> I don't see evidence of "we close until X" being a phrase without reference to a previous time of being open.


James I think this is maybe where we've missed each other. Where have I ever said the 'we close' version exists in isolation without relation to or implying another timeframe? Of 'course' 'we close until' implies a a larger time context (but not necessarily having anything to do with 'when they're open'. From the beginning of the thread you and other have said that the 'we close' syntax is 'entirely uncommon'. I have argued it is not and shown many examples of my point. I've even told you of placards in my area I've seen with it. But I'm okay with agreeing with you that the 'closed until' and the 'we're closed' answer in speech would be 'more' common. Are we getting closer in agreement now? What I want students of English to know here and they can see it with their own eyes in the perfectly complete sentence examples from Google is that the syntax is very common and is used to transmit something completely different than the 'we're closed' syntax. I've even explained why. 

We close until 11 = We close (the store) until 11. "the store" is the direct object of the action verb 'close'. Of course it's ellipsed in the syntax we're discussing but very common. 

I have nothing more to offer except the citations from Google which show my point. And that's all I've been arguing from the beginning.. For awhile I know I was focussing on the 'placards' as my main point. But for the sake of the student learning please let's not throw away the syntax entirely which is very much what they would received from this thread in the position that others are taking.

Are we close enough to agreement now?

Grant


----------



## NewdestinyX

goodoldave said:


> Grant,
> Here are the first 10 entries from your Google search.  I really don't see anything there that supports your position.  Most seem to be qualified with another phrase, as other posters have suggested is appropriate.  Others are just run-on sentences or parts of two sentences.


If that's your conclusion then I'm pretty sure you don't understand my position, Dave. Each of the sentences/parts of sentences, "after the first 2 which are quotes from our thread" support my position perfectly. They are all part of a larger context and even though some are fragments they support what I've been saying because that means they were on notices or placards or in titles, etc.. I'm backing away a little from the 'in isolation' position I took for a while because there does need to be implied some 'other timeframe' of openness current or eventual.. But I only begrudgingly accept that too because I don't want non native speakers to be afraid of this syntax which is perfect and common English from everything I can see and research. Read on beyond the first 10 hits.

I also acknowledge for the non native speaker's benefit that they would never be misunderstood if the used 'We're closed until 10". And I think that would be their best choice. No problem acknowledging that. I just don't want them to be confused that the 'we close..' means something different and has its own usage.

Grant


----------



## goodoldave

Grant, 

I agree that "We close until X" is perfectly fine when surrounded by the proper context, as is shown by the Google listings. But, to my mind, the issue has been that you have maintained that "We close until X" can stand alone, which I have a problem with. 

Here is your statement in Post 57 where you clearly state that additional context is not needed: 

"My opinion is formed simply by how many signs I've seen it on in my lifetime -- all over the country.. Not just in my area. The sentence needs no other context to be clear, James. Sorry to disagree. I'm just completely baffled by native English speakers saying it's strange.. Sorry -- Not trying to be thickheaded.. Really..  "

Dave


----------



## NewdestinyX

goodoldave said:


> Grant, Here is your statement in Post 57 where you clearly state that additional context is not needed:
> 
> "My opinion is formed simply by how many signs I've seen it on in my lifetime -- all over the country.. Not just in my area. The sentence needs no other context to be clear, James. Sorry to disagree. I'm just completely baffled by native English speakers saying it's strange.. Sorry -- Not trying to be thickheaded.. Really..  "
> 
> Dave


I already acknowledged that post a few posts back, Dave.. What I've also said as support... is that I still see it stand alone and it 'always implies' context. That's why it should not be avoided or considered substandard English in a standalone context either. Does English syntax lose its cohesion just because the whole context isn't there? 

He went.
They call.
We close.

They're all 'sentences' with meaning.

I think all points have been made at this point. I have nothing more to add. I believe I've made and proved my point as best I can. I guess the non natives will just have to wonder why natives concluded differently about this syntax.

The thing I leave this thread unresolved about is why my ears won't allow. "We open until.." at all! But they totally accept - "we close until".. That's - well -- unsettling. Because syntactically they're identical.

Thanks for your input too,
Grant


----------



## JamesM

I also agree that "we close until 11;00" can be perfectly fine in a context that describes it as an event after being open, either a recurring event or a big one-time event, such as "we are open until Christmas Eve when we close until New Year's." I don't think it's nearly as common as "we're closed until 10 a.m tomorrow", for example, but it's fine. 

My disagreement is that it doesn't make sense without something being open first, so "We close until 10:00" does not mean to me "we open at 10:00" if that's the first time a place opens in a day. Your groundskeeper example uses it this way and you have said that "we close until 10:00" is a reasonable and common response to a question about when a store opens for the first time in a day. I just can't see that.

I also honestly have never seen "we close until" on a sign or placard, that I can recall. I"ve been searching on Google to see if I can find one. I'm open to that being something I just haven't seen in my life.

I can also agree that it's not substandard or grammatically wrong, but I do think it's only idiomatic in very specific circumstances and, because of that, it's not common.


----------



## NewdestinyX

JamesM said:


> I also agree that "we close until 11;00" can be perfectly fine in a context that describes it as an event after being open, either a recurring event or a big one-time event, such as "we are open until Christmas Eve when we close until New Year's." I don't think it's nearly as common as "we're closed until 10 a.m tomorrow", for example, but it's fine.


Well the 'main' context it makes sense to me in is referring to a regular 'closing' daily -- until a point when the establishment opens again.. I know you don't accept that one. Agree to disagree.



> My disagreement is that it doesn't make sense without something being open first, so "We close until 10:00" does not mean to me "we open at 10:00" if that's the first time a place opens in a day.


Completely disagree. That's the only context it makes sense in to me. Though the establishment being open first then closing then reopening is fine to my ears..



> Your groundskeeper example uses it this way


No he doesn't. He meant: the snack bar's closed from sun up until it opens later. Simply 'unbelievable' that any English speaker can't see that.   I don't mean that pejoratively -- I'm just baffled that we speak the same language.. . 



> I also honestly have never seen "we close until" on a sign or placard, that I can recall. I"ve been searching on Google to see if I can find one. I'm open to that being something I just haven't seen in my life.


I'll clik one on my iPhone next time I'm at my dentists.



> I can also agree that it's not substandard or grammatically wrong, but I do think it's only idiomatic in very specific circumstances


Oh sure.. but that wasn't the question of the original poster. They asked -- does 'it work'.



> and, because of that, it's not common.


Agree to disagree.

Thanks for the interchange, James,
Grant


----------



## JamesM

> No he doesn't. He meant: the snack bar's closed from sun up until it opens later. Simply 'unbelievable' that any English speaker can't see that.  I don't mean that pejoratively -- I'm just baffled that we speak the same language.. .


 
Yes, this is where the confusion lies for me. It was open before sun-up? If not, it doesn't make sense to me if I see him at 9 a.m. that he would say, "We close until noon", talking about the same day. "We're closed until noon" would make perfect sense to me (although I would expect "we open at noon" or "we don't open until noon"), but "we close until noon" would not. This is where the core of the difference lies between our experiences, in my opinion. I'm curious if others have heard it used this way as well. So far I think only Forero might have expressed familiarity with this use.


----------



## cuchuflete

Having waded through all 84 posts, and not knowing if the original sentence was in Spanish, or what context may have surrounded it, I look at the bare English spoken and transcribed sentence:
*"Don't you worry about it, actually, we close until 10"

*​First and foremost, thanks to Forero, Loob and JamesM for making this all less confusing.

I don't know if my thoughts are in any way original, but here are some questions that have been raised about the English sentence, and my reactions. Note that I am not in any way trying to interpret this as a possible translation from another language.  I'm taking it on its own in English. 

Question #1:  Is it grammatically incorrect?
A.  Absolutely not.  None of those who object to it as unusual in their dialect, or confusing without context, or awkward sounding have provided any evidence of a grammatical flaw.  

Question #2:  Is it idiomatic?
A.  That's a function of context, for me at least.  I can imagine some contexts in which it is perfectly idiomatic, and in which alternative phrasing would be less so.  I'll get back to that later.

Question #3:  Is it perplexing without more context?
A. Certainly.  If the original post had presented us with background—setting the scene—including the cast of characters, the topic of the conversation, and some of the preceding and following dialogue, I suspect this might have been a three post thread. In a way I'm glad we have had to dig so deeply and tenaciously into it, but background and context have never been more noteworthy for their absence.  

Question #4:  What is an example of context in which this entire matter might be far less contentious?


The players:  

-Barney, a person who is going to be late for his 7:30 am appointment with a professional services office that keeps odd hours.

- Brenda, the receptionist at that office.

The time is now 7:13 am.  Barney calls the office and Brenda answers.

Barney:  _Hi, this is Barney Bottlebrush calling.  I've got an appointment for 7:30 this morning, and my wife's car won't start so I have to get the kids to school. There's no way I'll be able to keep the appointment.  I'm really sorry.

_Brenda: _It's ok, Mr. Bottlebrush, we can try to reschedule you for a little later this morning, if that works for you.

_Barney: _Well that's really good of you.  Problem is, after I drop Betty and Buster and Barney Junior off, I've got to pick up a prescription for Belinda—she's our gerbil—and give her the medication.  There's no way I could make it before ten.
_
Brenda: *"Don't you worry about it, actually, we close until 10"

*
Ok, it is a little far-fetched, and it won't win a Pulitzer for fiction, but it is a context in which the topic sentence works.


_Pesky afterthought:  Why is the thread title different from the topic sentence?  It may not matter, but then again it may._


----------



## NewdestinyX

cuchuflete said:


> Question #1:  Is it grammatically incorrect?
> A.  Absolutely not.  None of those who object to it as unusual in their dialect, or confusing without context, or awkward sounding have provided any evidence of a grammatical flaw.
> 
> Question #2:  Is it idiomatic?
> A.  That's a function of context, for me at least.  I can imagine some contexts in which it is perfectly idiomatic, and in which alternative phrasing would be less so.  I'll get back to that later.
> 
> Question #3:  Is it perplexing without more context?
> A. Certainly.  If the original post had presented us with background—setting the scene—including the cast of characters, the topic of the conversation, and some of the preceding and following dialogue, I suspect this might have been a three post thread. In a way I'm glad we have had to dig so deeply and tenaciously into it, but background and context have never been more noteworthy for their absence.


Thanks Cuchu. I agree with the answers to all your questions. You have stated it ver clearly and in potentially less 'posturing' way that I have. There are many contexts in which - the sentence alone - could be perfectly understood and again, I maintain, would mean something different than 'we are closed until 9'. 

From EnglishOnly forum which directs members to this thread:


			
				Nunty said:
			
		

> Without context, the sentence makes no sense.
> 
> As was stated in your we close until 9 thread, it is possible for a sentence to contain no grammatical error and still not mean anything.
> 
> On the other hand, in a particular context it could be the absolutely correct thing to say.


 I disagree with your opinion there, Nunty, and I've shown several examples - where it is perfectly understandable with an 'implied context' stated as a sentence alone. All sentences said as part of speech -- which the sentence of this thread was said -- in speech - have context implied or understood between the speakers. I will accept that in isolation written as its own paragraph - might be confusing. But that's not how it was presented in this thread. There was an implied context. Therefore it is completely understandable.

Where I think we're landing and I concur is that a context is needed to give meaning to most things and this sentence too. So if you see it on a placard there's an implied context. The sentence, alone, in a conversation would also have context. I do not accept that the context must come from 'other words' in the same sentence with 'we close until' as a phrase within the same sentence.

I do embrace the idea that context is everything. But I'm hoping noone is still supporting the notion of 'substandard English' as was a pervasive opinion in the early part of the thread.

Chao,
Grant


----------



## JamesM

cuchuflete said:


> Question #4: What is an example of context in which this entire matter might be far less contentious?
> 
> 
> The players:
> 
> -Barney, a person who is going to be late for his 7:30 am appointment with a professional services office that keeps odd hours.
> 
> - Brenda, the receptionist at that office.
> 
> The time is now 7:13 am. Barney calls the office and Brenda answers.
> 
> Barney: _Hi, this is Barney Bottlebrush calling. I've got an appointment for 7:30 this morning, and my wife's car won't start so I have to get the kids to school. There's no way I'll be able to keep the appointment. I'm really sorry._
> 
> Brenda: _It's ok, Mr. Bottlebrush, we can try to reschedule you for a little later this morning, if that works for you._
> 
> Barney: _Well that's really good of you. Problem is, after I drop Betty and Buster and Barney Junior off, I've got to pick up a prescription for Belinda—she's our gerbil—and give her the medication. There's no way I could make it before ten._
> 
> Brenda: *"Don't you worry about it, actually, we close until 10"*
> 
> 
> Ok, it is a little far-fetched, and it won't win a Pulitzer for fiction, but it is a context in which the topic sentence works.


 
Ok, now I'm worried.  This is a context where it doesn't make sense to me all. "We don't open until 10" or "we open at 10" would make sense to me here, but not "we close until 10" if they have opened up yet for the day. It's odd to me to the point of sounding foreign, as if someone had translated an idea from another language into English.

Could this be a regional difference of some kind? Cuchu is in Maine and NewDestinyX is in Pennsylvania.  It sounds natural to both of them.  Is there someone who has lived on both coasts that might have noticed this difference? 

I just read cuchu's scenario to my co-worker, born and raised on the west coast of the U.S. (like me), and she had a completely blank look when I finished the scenario. Her reaction was "What?!?" She expected the same thing I did and thought it made no sense to say "we close until 10" in those circumstances.


----------



## cuchuflete

NewdestinyX said:


> [/COLOR]There are many contexts in which - the sentence alone - could be perfectly understood and again, I maintain, would mean something different than 'we are closed until 9'.


  Please don't attempt to suggest that, in the bit of not-very-creative writing I provided, that it meant anything other than "We will close sometime after your original appointment, and will remain closed until 10 am, at which time we will re-open."  In any context I can imagine for this odd, though grammatically correct, bit of 
English, it is apt to mean precisely that "we are closed until X hour, and will re-open at that time".  This may refer, according to context, to a single event or a habitual schedule.  There is nothing in the expression "We close until ten" to suggest that it is routine or a one-off event.  




JamesM said:


> Ok, now I'm worried.  This is a context where it doesn't make sense to me all. "We don't open until 10" or "we open at 10" would make sense to me here, but not "we close until 10" if they have opened up yet for the day. It's odd to me to the point of sounding foreign, as if someone had translated an idea from another language into English.


  I suggest that the confusion is strictly my fault for not providing sufficient background.  I understand the episode as one in which an office opens for business, then closes after a while for a fixed time interval, and then re-opens.  It is much like closing for a lunch hour, except that in this case the reason for closing is not lunch, and is in fact not known or stated.  Mea culpa.


----------



## JamesM

Ah, now I understand.  I see it now.  They were open in the early morning, they close until 10 and then re-open.  It's a little unusual but understandable.   I just don't see how it could be said unless they were open first.


----------



## NewdestinyX

cuchuflete said:


> Please don't attempt to suggest that, in the bit of not-very-creative writing I provided, that it meant anything other than "We will close sometime after your original appointment, and will remain closed until 10 am, at which time we will re-open."


 That's one of the points I've made already.





> In any context I can imagine for this odd, though grammatically correct, bit of
> English, it is apt to mean precisely that "we are closed until X hour, and will re-open at that time".


Also what I've suggested in several posts.  





> This may refer, according to context, to a single event or a habitual schedule.  There is nothing in the expression "We close until ten" to suggest that it is routine or a one-off event.


Ok I accept that to a point. But 'we are closed until..', alone, could not refer to a habitual closing as I see it. 





> I suggest that the confusion is strictly my fault for not providing sufficient background.  I understand the episode as one in which an office opens for business, then closes after a while for a fixed time interval, and then re-opens.  It is much like closing for a lunch hour, except that in this case the reason for closing is not lunch, and is in fact not known or stated.  Mea culpa.


Again that's been my point all along. That's the only thing it 'can' mean. I don't see any angle from which you and I disagree, Cuchu, except in my more rigid position of it having to mean 'habitual'. We'd disagree there. And now I'm conceding that it doesn't have to be habitual given context.

Thanks,
Grant


----------



## NewdestinyX

JamesM said:


> Ah, now I understand.  I see it now.  They were open in the early morning, they close until 10 and then re-open.  It's a little unusual but understandable.   I just don't see how it could be said unless they were open first.


Oo a ray of hope that agreement is afoot. It would seem now, and correct me if I'm wrong, James, that you see Cuchu's scenario as a perfectly 'common' scenario: business open, then close, then open - and that referring to it with 'we close until..' would be perfectly germane and clear.. ?

But you're saying that without the business 'first being open' the 'we close..' phrase falls apart for you?

Test this one:

The president's motrcade is slated to come down Main Street at 6 and last for an hour and the museum along that route knows that their customers won't be able to get it during that period - but after they plan to reopen. A sign on the door reads:
"We close until 7PM tonight."

With the implied context of a person reading that that the President is coming -- in their heads.. Would that sign be weird to you?

Grant


----------



## panjandrum

NewdestinyX said:


> ... A sign on the door reads:
> "We close until 7PM tonight."
> 
> With the implied context of a person reading that that the President is coming -- in their heads.. Would that sign be weird to you?
> 
> Grant


The meaning is clear.
The sentence is bizarre.
I can understand many sentences that are bizarre.
It is not, of course, the topic sentence - which is even more bizarre without context.


----------



## JamesM

> It would seem now, and correct me if I'm wrong, James, that you see Cuchu's scenario as a perfectly 'common' scenario: business open, then close, then open - and that referring to it with 'we close until..' would be perfectly germane and clear.. ?


 
No, I didn't say "perfectly germane and clear" or "perfectly common". I said it would be _unusual but understandable_. To me "unusual" and "common" are nearly opposites in this context, and "understandable" is not "perfectly germane and clear."  I'm puzzled by the change in characterization of what I said.



> The president's motrcade is slated to come down Main Street at 6 and last for an hour and the museum along that route knows that their customers won't be able to get it during that period - but after they plan to reopen. A sign on the door reads:
> "We close until 7PM tonight."
> 
> With the implied context of a person reading that that the President is coming -- in their heads.. Would that sign be weird to you?


 
Yes, it would be distinctly weird to me. I would expect to see "we will be closed from 6 to 7 p.m. tonight" or, in shorthand, "Closed from 6 to 7 tonight (for motorcade)". In a very casual setting I can imagine "Back at 7" as a hastily scribbled note in a window long before I'd even think of "we close until 7". Frankly, I would never think of "we close until 7 tonight" in this context. "We close temporarily/briefly at 6 tonight for motorcade" would make sense to me. If I see a sign at 3 p.m. as I enter the museum, while the museum is open, that says, "We close until 7 tonight", how is this useful information? I'm walking through an open door but I don't know when they close. The closing time is more important than the re-opening time at that point.

Are you talking about a sign that was placed in the window at 6 p.m. (and not before) to indicate they are closed at the moment until 7 p.m.? To me, that could be "Closed until 7 p.m." or "We will re-open at 7 p.m." but not "we close until 7 tonight". 

Here's a context where it makes sense to me:

"Our dining room is open for lunch from 11:30 a.m. to 2:30 p.m. when we close until 7:00 p.m. for dinner." It's still a little odd to me but it's much less odd to me than many of the things that have appeared on this thread.


----------



## goodoldave

Grant, 

I have a question based on your response from Post 90:


Quote:
 I suggest that the confusion is strictly my fault for not providing sufficient background. I understand the episode as one in which an office opens for business, then closes after a while for a fixed time interval, and then re-opens. It is much like closing for a lunch hour, except that in this case the reason for closing is not lunch, and is in fact not known or stated. Mea culpa.  
Again that's been my point all along. That's the only thing it 'can' mean. I don't see any angle from which you and I disagree, Cuchu, except in my more rigid position of it having to mean 'habitual'. We'd disagree there. And now I'm conceding that it doesn't have to be habitual given context.


Given your previous statement that your Dentists office has a sign that says "We close until X", is it their business practice to open for awhile, then close and then reopen at "X"?

Dave


----------



## cuchuflete

NewdestinyX said:


> Oo a ray of hope that agreement is afoot. It would seem now, and correct me if I'm wrong, James, that you see Cuchu's scenario as a perfectly 'common' scenario: business open, then close, then open - and that referring to it with 'we close until..' would be perfectly germane and clear.. ?



Please, esteemed colleagues, wait a minute while I restrain myself from throwing something fetid at the learned gentleman from ....

The scenario I laid out is possible though uncommon.  That's just a remark about a single invented context in which the odd phrasing from post #1 may logically exist.  The expression "we close until X hour" is not, in my experience, anything other than extremely uncommon.  It is not the way most AE speakers would express the idea of a temporary closure between periods of being open.  

As to it being clear, the context must be specific for clarity to reign.  There must be explicit statements  or contextual understanding that something was or still is open, that there will be a temporary closing or that such a closing has begun, and there must be a stated time for re-opening.  

It may be grammatically correct, functionally clear, and appropriate as a second or third choice as a way to say "closed until 10".  Let's grant it its due, but not oversell the expression as common or the most idiomatic way to express the idea.  

Se ruega a los colegas hispanohablantes evitar la frase.


----------



## NewdestinyX

cuchuflete said:


> The scenario I laid out is possible though uncommon.  That's just a remark about a single invented context in which the odd phrasing from post #1 may logically exist.  The expression "we close until X hour" is not, in my experience, anything other than extremely uncommon.  It is not the way most AE speakers would express the idea of a temporary closure between periods of being open.


In my area it's perfectly common. It may be the influence of Pennsyvania Dutch -- but Google bears out the fact that it is very widespread.


> As to it being clear, the context must be specific for clarity to reign.


There is always context, Cuchu. In everything that is uttered in conversation even where one speaker would use it in a short statement -- there is 'always' always' context. I don't know why the 'context' point is being rammed down my throat. In the sentence 'He went'. There is context. 





> There must be explicit statements  or contextual understanding that something was or still is open, that there will be a temporary closing or that such a closing has begun, and there must be a stated time for re-opening.


There would always be sufficient context for this to make sense. The sentence that is the subject of this thread shared no other context. And that's been our problem. It was not part of a conversation. But there is no way I accept that the sentence, alone, has any trouble in a conversation where the context between the speakers is clear. James believes it strange - period. You made up a very simple scenario that allowed the sentence, alone, to function perfectly. You made my point very clearly for me. 


> It may be grammatically correct, functionally clear, and appropriate as a second or third choice as a way to say "closed until 10".  Let's grant it its due, but not oversell the expression as common or the most idiomatic way to express the idea.


Agree to disagree. I give up.



> Se ruega a los colegas hispanohablantes evitar la frase.


Agree to disagree. They should learn how to use both 'we're closed until' and 'we close until'. They mean something different.

I acknowledge that 'we close until 10' - with no context of any kind (which would never be possible) would be substandard. 

Chao,
Grant


----------



## NewdestinyX

goodoldave said:


> Grant,
> 
> I have a question based on your response from Post 90:
> 
> Given your previous statement that your Dentists office has a sign that says "We close until X", is it their business practice to open for awhile, then close and then reopen at "X"?
> 
> Dave


Exactly. They close from 12-2 for lunch. Your point?

Grant


----------



## JamesM

The point is that you have stated multiple times that "we close until" does not have to be related to being open before closing, Grant (even though you stated something different a couple of posts back when agreeing with cuchu).  The issue is with using "we close until" to mean "we open for the first time at". 

The contexts you have given have been very odd.  They are _not_  borne out by a Google search.  The fact that the three words "we close until" appear thousands of times does not mean that it matches the context you have been defending.  I took the time to look through at least eight pages of links early on in this conversation and provided the few examples that I could find that were even close.  Otherwise, the contexts were clearly about being open first, then closing.  I provided examples of those as well.

Here is your contention about the snack bar being closed:



> No he doesn't. He meant: the snack bar's closed from sun up until it opens later.


 
The second context was about using "We close until 7 p.m." with no statement about when the place closed.  These are both very odd.  

 If you can find evidence of this usage, please present it here with links.  "We close until noon" meaning "we don't open until noon" is _not _common.  "We close until 7" without mentioning when you started the closing is odd.   If these usages are as common as you say, it should be easy to find examples.

Just saying "it's common" and "everybody says this" is not sufficient to prove your point.


----------



## Loob

I can't believe this thread is still going!  The OP's *We close until 10* seems to me to be clearly a mis-translation of Mexican Spanish _[no] cerramos hasta las 10._

Time for me to bow out, I think....


----------



## Forero

All the topics being discussed here are intriguing and worthy of discussion. I hope an understanding moderator can tease apart the tangle so interested parties can comment on each of the questions in its own thread.

Temo que se haya perdido lo de la interpretación de _hasta_.


----------



## goodoldave

Exactly. They close from 12-2 for lunch. Your point?

Quote:
                                                 Se ruega a los colegas hispanohablantes evitar la frase.                                 
Agree to disagree. They should learn how to use both 'we're closed until' and 'we close until'. They mean something different.

I acknowledge that 'we close until 10' - with no context of any kind (which would never be possible) would be substandard.

Grant, 

So, I assume the sign says "We close until 2".  Let's say I have a terrible toothache and show up at their office at 7:00 and they're closed.  Then I see their sign that says "We close until 2".  Where is the context I need to know that they will be open during the morning and then close at noon and then reopen at 2?


Dave


----------



## panjandrum

Grant asserts that "We close until <time>," is common and readily understood as an element of the topic sentence:
_"Don't you worry about it, actually, we close until 10"_
- and it needs no further context.  From post #39:





> Both "We close until 9" (without any other words or phrases) and "We are closed until 9"(without any other words or phrases) are perfect English but they mean slightly different things.
> It [We close until 9] could appear on a sign or placard and it refers to a time at which they 're-open' their establishment 'after' it's been closed for a period.


Later posts soften the line on needing no context (for example, #86).
This is no doubt true in Grant's experience, though we have no objective supporting evidence.

There do not appear to be others who share Grant's view when they arrive, and none have been persuaded subsequently.  It seems that others would accept this statement as good English only if it is preceded by something that defines the start of the closed period.  For example, see JamesM's posts #55 & #69 and workingonit's post #56.


----------



## NewdestinyX

goodoldave said:


> Grant,
> So, I assume the sign says "We close until 2". Let's say I have a terrible toothache and show up at their office at 7:00 and they're closed. Then I see their sign that says "We close until 2". Where is the context I need to know that they will be open during the morning and then close at noon and then reopen at 2?


Their office hours are stated as follows:

Office hours:
Mon-Thur 8:00am-12:00pm, 2:00pm-4:00pm
We close until 2:00pm for lunch

I thought I mentioned their statement several posts back.


panjandrum said:


> Grant asserts that "We close until <time>," is common and readily understood as an element of the topic sentence:
> _"Don't you worry about it, actually, we close until 10"_
> - and it needs no further context.  From post #39:Later posts soften the line on needing no context (for example, #86).
> This is no doubt true in Grant's experience, though we have no objective supporting evidence.
> 
> There do not appear to be others who share Grant's view when they arrive, and none have been persuaded subsequently.  It seems that others would accept this statement as good English only if it is preceded by something that defines the start of the closed period.  For example, see JamesM's posts #55 & #69 and workingonit's post #56.


That's a nice summation, Panjandrum. It almost gives me credit for where I've softened my position. And you're forgetting Forero's support of my position. And many of the Google examples, which each can read for themselves, are very clearly making my 'current' point - that it's perfectly correct and common English. It could never stand in isolation because there's always an explicit or implied context. It also doesn't mean the same thing and 'we are closed'. What I find interesting is that the opposing points of view haven't been able to offer 'proof' of their side of the argument either -- that it's 'uncommon' (which the Google examples disprove) or that it's substandard English which hasn't been stated in a while but was the main thing that 'cranked me up' to begin with. I think we've looked at this from all angles and I'm satisfied to give the advice to natives that Cuchu gave -- which I also said several posts back -- which is that when given a choice - 'we are closed until' - would be understood by any English native speaker without ambiguity - and therefore is a safer choice. Not problem there.

I'm sorry that I can't accept as 'uncommon' a sentence/phrase that gets hundreds of thousands of hits on the major search engines we have available to us. That's all the proof I need to make and prove my case. The only frustration that remains is how many different interpretations remain of what the 'we close until..' phrase means. I guess that alone gives cause to avoid it. Agreed?

I have nothing further to add (unless any of my statements are misquoted or misinterpreted).

Thanks all! Most interesting albeit frustrating thread I've participated in in a long time,
Grant


----------



## NewdestinyX

Just for a parting presentation of objective proof of this usage - with little context more than the usage I say I see. These are all from the first few pages of the Google search:

*Rare Device / Rare Device / good stuff for you and your home / San ...*
You will see me Wednesday through Sunday, and then* we close until* August 1.

*Russian Festival*
Friday, October 17
12:00 pm Russian Festival opens with food (including carry out) and recorded music
5:00 pm Opening Procession with festival icon
9:00 pm* We close until *the following noon

*McGinley Associates P.A. Home Page*
Usually* We Close Until *1:00*.*... Sometimes We're Gone Until 2. We Close About 5:00 PM.... Occasionally As Early As 4.... Many Nights As Late As 10:00 *...*
www.fivesenses.com/mcginley_associates.htm - Similar - 

*Crafty Capers Rubber Stamps and Scrapbooking Home*
We are open in the Lantzville location until Fri July 24 then* we close until *Tues July 28 when we reopen at our new location at 2147C Bowen Rd, *...*

*Socialist Worker Appeal*
After Tuesday 16 December *we close until *the New Year. You can place orders, but they will not be processed until Monday 5 January, when we are back at work *...*www.swappeal.org.uk/merchandise/help.html - Cached - Similar -

*From the Webcrawler seach engine:*

Bonny Rushbrook: Columnist has one more story about Christmas tre...                                        OK, one more Christmas story and then_* we close until*_ next year. It's about Christmas trees. ... story and then we close until next year. It's about ...                       
www.herald-dispatch.com/news/putnam/x529895323                              [Found on Yahoo! Search ]

                              i had been delivering pizza on and off for two months until recently when i ... sat until 11, but on sundays *we close until 9*. the hours are clearly printed on ...                       
www.somethingawful.com/d/comedy-goldmine/customer-...                              [Found on Yahoo! Search ]

New Year's Eve Parties / Gable House Bowl / Partywirks                                        Online reservations for Gable House Bowl by Partywirks! Book your party ... Then *we close until* 9:00pm to get Gable House ready for our reknowned New Year's ...                       
www.partywirks.com/store/gable_house_bowl/category...                              [Found on Yahoo! Search ]

*From Yahoo Search Engine:*

*South Beach House Restaurant News*
I made a mistake we will not be ready to open at the beginning of April,it has *...* 2 weeks before _*we close until*_ reopening in april.Fresh this week,clams,mussels, *...**southbeachhousepointroberts.com*/news/index.php?start=10

*Braelinn Village Animal Hospital - directions
*Joomla - the dynamic portal engine and content management system ... on Saturday from 2 PM when *we close until* 9 PM Saturday night and again from ...master.bvahvet.com/index.php?...&task=view&id=11&Itemid=32


----------



## goodoldave

Quote:
Their office hours are stated as follows:

Office hours:
Mon-Thur 8:00am-12:00pm, 2:00pm-4:00pm
We close until 2:00pm for lunch


That's a very strange sign.  I've never seen one like it. 

Dave


----------



## NewdestinyX

goodoldave said:


> NewdestinyX said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Their office hours are stated as follows:
> Office hours:
> Mon-Thur 8:00am-12:00pm, 2:00pm-4:00pm
> We close until 2:00pm for lunch
> 
> 
> 
> That's a very strange sign.  I've never seen one like it.
> 
> Dave
Click to expand...

I'll let them know.  "We close until our fall season." is also a placard on the info board at our local community theater house. I'm beginning to wonder if the 'greater' usage in my area might be something regional. Wouldn't be the first time. That doesn't explain the bunch of Google matches though.


----------



## JamesM

NewdestinyX said:


> Just for a parting presentation of objective proof of this usage - with little context more than the usage I say I see. These are all from the first few pages of the Google search:
> 
> *Rare Device / Rare Device / good stuff for you and your home / San ...*
> You will see me Wednesday through Sunday, and then* we close until* August 1.
> 
> *Russian Festival*
> Friday, October 17
> 12:00 pm Russian Festival opens with food (including carry out) and recorded music
> 5:00 pm Opening Procession with festival icon
> 9:00 pm* We close until *the following noon
> 
> *McGinley Associates P.A. Home Page*
> Usually* We Close Until *1:00*.*... Sometimes We're Gone Until 2. We Close About 5:00 PM.... Occasionally As Early As 4.... Many Nights As Late As 10:00 *...*
> www.fivesenses.com/mcginley_associates.htm - Similar -
> 
> *Crafty Capers Rubber Stamps and Scrapbooking Home*
> We are open in the Lantzville location until Fri July 24 then* we close until *Tues July 28 when we reopen at our new location at 2147C Bowen Rd, *...*
> 
> *Socialist Worker Appeal*
> After Tuesday 16 December *we close until *the New Year. You can place orders, but they will not be processed until Monday 5 January, when we are back at work *...*www.swappeal.org.uk/merchandise/help.html - Cached - Similar -
> 
> *From the Webcrawler seach engine:*
> 
> Bonny Rushbrook: Columnist has one more story about Christmas tre... OK, one more Christmas story and then_* we close until*_ next year. It's about Christmas trees. ... story and then we close until next year. It's about ...
> www.herald-dispatch.com/news/putnam/x529895323 [Found on Yahoo! Search ]
> 
> i had been delivering pizza on and off for two months until recently when i ... sat until 11, but on sundays *we close until 9*. the hours are clearly printed on ...
> www.somethingawful.com/d/comedy-goldmine/customer-... [Found on Yahoo! Search ]
> 
> New Year's Eve Parties / Gable House Bowl / Partywirks Online reservations for Gable House Bowl by Partywirks! Book your party ... Then *we close until* 9:00pm to get Gable House ready for our reknowned New Year's ...
> www.partywirks.com/store/gable_house_bowl/category... [Found on Yahoo! Search ]
> 
> *From Yahoo Search Engine:*
> 
> *South Beach House Restaurant News*
> I made a mistake we will not be ready to open at the beginning of April,it has *...* 2 weeks before _*we close until*_ reopening in april.Fresh this week,clams,mussels, *...**southbeachhousepointroberts.com*/news/index.php?start=10
> 
> *Braelinn Village Animal Hospital - directions*
> Joomla - the dynamic portal engine and content management system ... on Saturday from 2 PM when *we close until* 9 PM Saturday night and again from ...master.bvahvet.com/index.php?...&task=view&id=11&Itemid=32


 

We are still not communicating, Grant.  This usage has been agreed upon.  This is the usage that states a previous open time followed by "then we close until".  

I am not talking about this usage.  I am talking about the way the groundskeeper used it and the example I gave that you thought sounded perfectly natural, where the store is not yet open and someone says, "We close until 10" _when it hasn't been open yet.  _

My first example in post #43 is a good example:

http://forum.wordreference.com/showpost.php?p=7477914&postcount=43


What you are offering are examples of something we've all agreed on.  I even gave a similar context a few posts back.

You have provided examples of what we agreed on, not where we differ, other than the dentist sign.  As Dave said, that's a use of "we close until" I have never seen.  

I agree that "we are open from X to Y when we close until" is used.  To me this is an example of knowing the time that the place was open by seeing the "from X to Y".  

I don't agree that it's found on signs anywhere that I've seen.  I don't agree that "we close until" can be used to indicate the first opening of the day.  

The only example you gave above that did not have the prior time they were open is this one:



> i had been delivering pizza on and off for two months until recently when i finally got so fed up with it that i refused to work anymore. so anyway it was last winter in the height of football season, so of course we were swamped all the time, especially on sunday nights. during the week we're open until 10 and fri/sat until 11, but on sundays we close until 9.


 
This makes no sense to me.  I would read this as a mistake for "on Sundays we close *at* 9".


----------



## NewdestinyX

JamesM said:


> We are still not communicating, Grant.  This usage has been agreed upon.  This is the usage that states a previous open time followed by "then we close until".
> 
> I am not talking about this usage.  I am talking about the way the groundskeeper used it and the example I gave that you thought sounded perfectly natural, where the store is not yet open and someone says, "We close until 10" _when it hasn't been open yet.  _
> 
> My first example in post #43 is a good example:
> 
> http://forum.wordreference.com/showpost.php?p=7477914&postcount=43
> 
> 
> What you are offering are examples of something we've all agreed on.  I even gave a similar context a few posts back.
> 
> You have provided examples of what we agreed on, not where we differ, other than the dentist sign.  As Dave said, that's a use of "we close until" I have never seen.
> 
> I agree that "we are open from X to Y when we close until" is used.  To me this is an example of knowing the time that the place was open by seeing the "from X to Y".
> 
> I don't agree that it's found on signs anywhere that I've seen.  I don't agree that "we close until" can be used to indicate the first opening of the day.
> 
> The only example you gave above that did not have the prior time they were open is this one:
> 
> 
> 
> This makes no sense to me.  I would read this as a mistake for "on Sundays we close *at* 9".


Not everyone was accepting the Google examples, James. It was said I offered no objective proof of my position. That's why I posted them.

My pool 'is' open before it's closed (the day before)-- it's implied in what the guy said. As I've said.. There's 'always' a context implied. We will never agree that it has to be 'an opening' immediately up to before the closure -- but I also acknowledge that that's the case in a lot of my examples. As it is in my dentist card placard. I think you're still interacting with me as if I haven't made any concessions. But we'll have to agree to disagree that it always implies an opening. The Yahho examples above have no 'open' time implied. And as you note in the last example that you say makes no sense to you -- that one also stands alone without the open context. Of course it makes sense to the writer of that example as it makes perfect sense to me.

Again -- maybe something regional. But several of the examples I've posted are also no 'explicit' mention of an opening.. It may be implied -- which is where I've come around as I was trying to express to Cuchu -- that there's always a context implied and in many cases that implication is as you've stated -- an opening first. So I think we're close enough in agreement to have helped the non natives. Let's move on. We've agreed to disagree (agreeably) on the "having to be open first" aspect. And my examples bear out why I'm convinced of my viewpoint. You believe they support your viewpoint. There's no way to go any further. As I said at the beginning I think you and I speak a different English on this one point. I'm okay with that. 

Thanks for your pursuit of 'the norm'. This isn't one where we'll come out completely on the same page. We just won't. We're communicating fine. I understand every explanation you've made. I just don't agree with your conclusion about the 'underpinning context'. 

Thanks sir,
Grant


----------



## goodoldave

Quote:
 					Originally Posted by *goodoldave* 

 
Quote:
 					Originally Posted by *NewdestinyX* 

Their office hours are stated as follows:
Office hours:
Mon-Thur 8:00am-12:00pm, 2:00pm-4:00pm
We close until 2:00pm for lunch

That's a very strange sign.  I've never seen one like it. 

Dave

I'll let them know.  "We close until our fall season." is also a placard on the info board at our local community theater house. I'm beginning to wonder if the 'greater' usage in my area might be something regional. Wouldn't be the first time. That doesn't explain the bunch of Google matches though.


Grant,

I don't mean to imply that your're making this stuff up as you go along, but a picture from your iphone of this sign (or any similar sign, since they are so abundant in your area) would go a long way to convince posters on this thread that this is a regional usage. 

Dave


----------



## NewdestinyX

goodoldave said:


> Grant,
> 
> I don't mean to imply that your're making this stuff up as you go along, but a picture from your iphone of this sign (or any similar sign, since they are so abundant in your area) would go a long way to convince posters on this thread that this is a regional usage.
> 
> Dave


Pretty sure I resent the implication, Dave .. And -not sure how to post a picture here.. but the next time I'm out and about I'll sure try and snap that shot for y'all.  I offered that several posts back too. But you guys be on the look out in your areas too. Watch as you're driving around. I still don't believe it's just here.


----------



## JamesM

> I think you're still interacting with me as if I haven't made any concessions.


 
I'm not intending to. I apologize if that's how I'm coming across. I've shifted, too, from "We close until" sounding extremely odd to me to seeing where it's used after a time being open.



> But we'll have to agree to disagree that it always implies an opening. The Yahho examples above have no 'open' time implied.


 
This is where we must see it very differently. "You will see me Wednesday through Sunday, and then* we close until* August 1" to me indicates that the place is open from this Wednesday to this Sunday and then it closes. "5:00 pm Opening Procession with festival icon / 9:00 pm* We close until *the following noon" clearly indicates they are open up to 9:00 pm when they close until the following noon. Maybe it's a matter of semantics. All of these have an activity that happens while they're open followed by closing until another time, as I see it, except for the pizza parlor.

I guess my frustration lies in having the things we agree on lumped together with the things we disagree on. It leads me to beleive that we're either not talking about the same thing or we're seeing it so differently that what looks like a distinction to me doesn't look like a distinction to you.



> My pool 'is' open before it's closed (the day before)-- it's implied in what the guy said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the "odd" use, as I see it. This is an entirely different use to me from the one where something is open and then closed. If a store says "We close until noon each day", that does not mean to me "We open at noon each day". Apparently it does to you. I'm saying that this is the odd use. This is the use that doesn't have examples outside of your experience, at least that I've seen so far.  This is what may be the regional usage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And as you note in the last example that you say makes no sense to you -- that one also stands alone without the open context. Of course it makes sense to the writer of that example as it makes perfect sense to me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Here's where you can help me, then. Can you explain in different words what the writer was saying? Here's the quote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> during the week we're open until 10 and fri/sat until 11, but on sundays we close until 9.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I take it that the pizza place is open (at some unmentioned time, let's say noon) on weekdays and closes at 10 on weekdays and 11 on Friday and Saturday. What does the part about Sunday mean? From what you've said before, I would take it to mean it doesn't start doing business until 9 p.m. on Sundays, but that makes no sense to me. How would you interpret it?
Click to expand...


----------



## NewdestinyX

JamesM said:


> NewdestinyX said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But we'll have to agree to disagree that it always implies an opening. The Yahho examples above have no 'open' time implied.
> 
> 
> 
> This is where we must see it very differently. "You will see me Wednesday through Sunday, and then* we close until* August 1" to me indicates that the place is open from this Wednesday to this Sunday and then it closes. "5:00 pm Opening Procession with festival icon / 9:00 pm* We close until *the following noon" clearly indicates they are open up to 9:00 pm when they close until the following noon. Maybe it's a matter of semantics. All of these have an activity that happens while they're open followed by closing until another time, as I see it, except for the pizza parlor.
Click to expand...

And you're now okay with that being both understandable, common, and something you'd say? If so then we're in agreement. In many a conversation those 'early openings' could be said or not said and I'd still get it. I think you'd find that strange. And that could be the regional usage.. Okay 1 down.



> I guess my frustration lies in having the things we agree on lumped together with the things we disagree on. It leads me to beleive that we're either not talking about the same thing or we're seeing it so differently that what looks like a distinction to me doesn't look like a distinction to you.


I hear your distinctions. For me, you're just _caging_ the language of Shakespeare a little too tightly, my good colleague. What you're 'labeling' substandard is perfect English and one that will always transmit some implied context.

And in recent posts I think I have started to come toward your position in that the context you've posed (one of a couple that would 'always be implied' even if the phrase is in isolation) --'is' the open first, then closed, then open again. I think I have moved toward you there. Even in my dentist's sign the hours of open and close are listed. Context established.. Right? I don't remember if the community theatre had any other times on the signage. But I'm not ready to say that that's the only context at hand where the "we're closed until..." would be uttered in speech or writing. The Yahoo examples bear that out.



> NewdestinyX said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My pool 'is' open before it's closed (the day before)-- it's implied in what the guy said.
> 
> 
> 
> This is the "odd" use, as I see it. This is an entirely different use to me from the one where something is open and then closed. If a store says "We close until noon each day", that does not mean to me "We open at noon each day". Apparently it does to you. I'm saying that this is the odd use. This is the use that doesn't have examples outside of your experience, at least that I've seen so far.  This is what may be the regional usage.
Click to expand...

 This is where I think you're overthinking it and that we may be closer to agreement. In his mind and my mind we're already aware of the 'daily open time'. Remember this is verbal conversation not placards and written material. I ask a question of him and he responds with the desire of putting a 'detour' in my time schedule. In my mind the snack bar opens at 10 with the normal pool opening and closes at six that night.. He's inserting a closed period whose net result is 'open til 6 the night before/closed til 12 the next day (moving thru a 24 hour period) and open again from 12 - 6. Is that convoluted? Only if you don't know the pool's schedule, James.




> And as you note in the last example that you say makes no sense to you -- that one also stands alone without the open context. Of course it makes sense to the writer of that example as it makes perfect sense to me.
> 
> 
> 
> Here's where you can help me, then. Can you explain in different words what the writer was saying? Here's the quote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> during the week we're open until 10 and fri/sat until 11, but on sundays we close until 9.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I take it that the pizza place is open (at some unmentioned time, let's say noon) on weekdays and closes at 10 on weekdays and 11 on Friday and Saturday. What does the part about Sunday mean? From what you've said before, I would take it to mean it doesn't start doing business until 9 p.m. on Sundays, but that makes no sense to me. How would you interpret it?
Click to expand...

That's the only thing it *can* mean, James. I will acknowledge that a pizza place opening at 9PM on Sunday is illogical contextually speaking knowing what we do of food places and their hours. And if that sentence had been the topic of this thread I would have been in the camp of people who would believe that the word 'until' was a misprint for 'at'. My concessions have been this:
1) I no longer hold that the "we close until.." syntax has to transmit habitual though it does regionally to me.
2) Though I don't like to be caged in to the "we close until.." syntax meaning 'open/closed/reopen' -- it seems to be most likely that that's the context.
3) The 'placard' usage of this seems to be a more regional usage -- possibly due to the influence of Pennsylvania Dutch german.

Where I think you've made concessions is that it's grammatically perfect English and it has more application than you first acknowledged. I'm not sure there's any major disagreement anymore. I've learned a lot here and again frustratingly the S/E PA regionalisms have caught me.

Any last area of major disagreement we see? 

Thanks,
Grant


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## JamesM

NewdestinyX said:


> And you're now okay with that being both understandable, common, and something you'd say? If so then we're in agreement. In many a conversation those 'early openings' could be said or not said and I'd still get it. I think you'd find that strange. And that could be the regional usage.. Okay 1 down.


 
 I can't go that far, Grant. I'm okay with it being understandable. I wouldn't say it's common on anything like the scale of "we're closed until". It's not something I would say, but I do acknowledge that others say it, and I wouldn't be surprised to see it in a hotel brochure or on a restaurant website, although I would not expect it on a fast food restaurant's website, for example, which would be something that would be common. It would be a fairly flowery way of saying it.



> In my mind the snack bar opens at 10 with the normal pool opening and closes at six that night.. He's inserting a closed period whose net result is 'open til 6 the night before/closed til 12 the next day (moving thru a 24 hour period) and open again from 12 - 6. Is that convoluted? Only if you don't know the pool's schedule, James.


 
No, on this one we still disagree. Even if I know the schedule, "we close until noon" is an unusual and odd way to me to say "we won't open until noon" in this context. 

For example, if someone said, "We used to open for breakfast but now, due to the recession, we close until noon" I would find that odd and I believe you would not, if I'm understanding you correctly. I don't believe this is a common thing to say at all in my region. To me the only thing that makes sense there with "close" in it is "... but now, due to the recession, we're close*d* until noon". (What I think would be most common would be "... but now, due to the recession, we don't open until noon.")

We're closer but I don't think it's likely we will ever be in alignment on this. I think it's clear where we differ, though.


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## NewdestinyX

JamesM said:


> I can't go that far, Grant. I'm okay with it being understandable. I wouldn't say it's common on anything like the scale of "we're closed until". It's not something I would say, but I do acknowledge that others say it, and I wouldn't be surprised to see it in a hotel brochure or on a restaurant website, although I would not expect it on a fast food restaurant's website, for example, which would be something that would be common. It would be a fairly flowery way of saying it.


I don't see flowery at all -- but fair enough, James.



> No, on this one we still disagree. Even if I know the schedule, "we close until noon" is an unusual and odd way to me to say "we won't open until noon" in this context.


Well "alrightey then".. 



> For example, if someone said, "We used to open for breakfast but now, due to the recession, we close until noon" I would find that odd and I believe you would not, if I'm understanding you correctly.


Right - perfectly normal and common to me and several folks from my area that I asked not to mention my pool guy's natural response to me the other day.


> I don't believe this is a common thing to say at all in my region.


I'm still not 100% sold on the regional thing because the search engine results aren't from my area and several of them are the context that you say is weird to you -- like my gardner's statement.



> We're closer but I don't think it's likely we will ever be in alignment on this. I think it's clear where we differ, though.


Yup. As a favorite comentator of mine from the radio says: "I prefer clarity to agreement." And that's where I'll bid you farewell, James. Thanks for taking such great lengths to explain 'why' it feels weird to you and for acknowledging that with proper context it's not unacceptable to you -- just 'less common'. I believe that summarizes your position fairly. ¿Nes pas?

Adieu,
Grant


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## JamesM

> I'm still not 100% sold on the regional thing because the search engine results aren't from my area and several of them are the context that you say is weird to you -- like my gardner's statement.


 
We must be reading the search engine results differently. I don't see these examples you keep mentioning. The pizza guy was the only one in the items you cited above and you also saw that as a mistake. All the others, if you follow the links, speak of a previous time being open.  For that reason, I think it's a peculiarity of your region at this point.


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## NewdestinyX

JamesM said:


> We must be reading the search engine results differently. I don't see these examples you keep mentioning. The pizza guy was the only one in the items you cited above and you also saw that as a mistake. All the others, if you follow the links, speak of a previous time being open.  For that reason, I think it's a peculiarity of your region at this point.


The result before the pizza one (South Beach) is also not an explicitly mentioned 'open/close/open' context, James - not in the words themselves. As we've concluded it is normal/easy to 'infer' that as the context. But the words themselves do not say it. And that's the whole point of my argument. Let's not forget that the topic here is 'commonness' of my usage 'without' written context. I would seem you are reading that context in in that example. As I said -- 'we close until..' 'always' 'implies' *a* context. But it may not say it. When it doesn't 'say it', explicitly.. that's where the usage of 'we close until' is weird to you - and not to me --and that entry is not from my region.

Even though the pizza one is strange because of the hour -- I'm not ready to say that it's a mark against my point. The '9' could just as easily have been the misprint and thereby error in logic rather than the word 'until'.

For the purpose of establishing why I'm not ready to conclude 'regional' yet... I'll go thru more of the results and show you the others without the 'explicit' mention of a 'recent open' period. But I'm traveling today 8/2. So as soon as possible.

Grant


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## roanheads

í Menudo hilo !
Another opinion from another country.
To see a sign on a store or business frontage saying " We close until 10 "  or " We are closed until 10 " to me would be equally acceptable as projecting the same basic meaning ie. " Doors open at 10 ".

Now , back to " hasta ".
From the DPD ( May 2006 )
" En algunas zonas de América, especialmente en México, en la zona costera del Ecuador, en América Central y en Colombia, se produce un fenómeno inverso, esto es , la supresión de la negación " no " delante del verbo en oraciones con "hasta", con lo que el enunciado puede interpretarse en sentidos diametralmente opuestos. Así en estas zonas una oración como " Se abre hasta las tres " puede significar que se cierra a las tres ( sentido que tendría en el español general ) o justamente lo contrario, que se abre a partir de las tres. Para evitar los casos de ambigüedad a que puede dar lugar, se recomienda acomodar el uso de " hasta " en estas zonas al del español general y colocar la negación correspondiente delante del verbo: " No se abre hasta las tres ", o bien dejar el verbo en forma afirmativa y sustituir la preposición " hasta " por " a " . " Se abre a las tres "

Hope this helps.
Saludos.


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## ampurdan

The discussion in this thread has been taken away from the original question:



> This is probably a spanish question after all, but I was always puzzled by the translation of it.
> 
> La frase completa dice: *"Don't you worry about it, actually, we close until 10"* se traduce de 2 maneras distintas, pero no se cual seria la mas correcta:
> 
> *No se preocupe, cerramos hasta las 10.*
> 
> o
> 
> *No se preocupe, no cerramos hasta las 10.*
> 
> Las frases son negativas y la traduccion no siempre es la misma, pero por que siendo 2 frases diferentes se traducen de la misma manera?
> 
> Saludos.


Although knowing about the correctness of the English sentence is obviously relevant to translate it, it cannot take up all the discussion. There is enough information (perhaps too much) in this thread to answer the question in post #1; therefore we've decided to close it.


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