# happiness and indifference...



## Benjy

while i was on the plane yesterday i spent far too much time thinking (the inflight movies were terrible lol) and the following question popped into my head: is it possible to be happy without being (at least to some degree) indifferent OR ignorant to the suffering/unhappiness of others?

there are so many people who live terrible things everyday and i guess if one was totally aware/could empathise fully with the starving masses or understand the fears of the millions with terminal illness it would be pretty hard to take.

answers on a postcard (making reference to the philosophical/religious system on which you base your answer please )

ta


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## cuchuflete

Benjy,
without reference to any philosophical or religious system...

I've lived and worked in places with terrible, highly visible, poverty juxtaposed with great wealth.  After a few days, my eyes "stopped seeing" the poverty.  I think our brains/emotions shut out what is painful.

I think we either choose to dedicate our lives to working to 'fix' these problems, and become consumed by the effort, or we deny ourselves the recognition, as it leads to a feeling of helplessness and even despair at the sadness of it.

Note that I've left out any mention of "injustice" or other political/social/philosophical notions.  Those are intellectual constructs about causes.  I'm referring only to the way we respond to the facts in front of us.  

C.


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## LV4-26

Benjy said:
			
		

> (...) is it possible to be happy without being (at least to some degree) indifferent OR ignorant to the suffering/unhappiness of others?


I would say no to your question. Only I think I would replace 'indifferent/ignorant' by 'oblivious/forgetful'.
Isn't it the same with the prospect of one's own death ?

Now of course, I have a problem with the word "happiness" which I find myself totally unable to define. I'm not even sure that the others are actually "the others". Oh my goodness! I'd better stop here.


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## Benjy

LV4-26 said:
			
		

> I would say no to your question. Only I think I would replace 'indifferent/ignorant' by 'oblivious/forgetful'.
> Isn't it the same with the prospect of one's own death ?
> 
> Now of course, I have a problem with the word "happiness" which I find myself totally unable to define. I'm not even sure that the others are actually "the others". Oh my goodness! I'd better stop here.



feel free to define it anyway you want. i'm just really curious to see what people think. by others i usppose you could mean all the poeple whom you are aware of.. or maybe all the pople who exist. and yes happiness is as about ambiguous as you can get 

ps thanks for yer thoughts cuchu


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## LV4-26

Benjy said:
			
		

> feel free to define it anyway you want.


We'd better state that we all have the same definition and start from there. Otherwise, I'm afraid it would be too long and would result in two different topics in the same thread.

Not only do I think we couldn't be happy if we weren't oblivious of other's unhappiness/sufferings but I think we would just be unable to _live_. 
I don't mean never thinking of it, I mean not having other's unhappiness constantly in mind.


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## DDT

I think Cuchu is terribly right, we do deny ourselves the recognition. That's part of the survival instinct, I guess.

Basically I am an optimist and I try to find a positive side even in the most painful aspects/experiences of life. It's not always that easy. I cannot pretend to change the world or to save it all...moreover who am I to judge what's fair and unfair? Right or wrong? I can try to bring my little contribution whenever I have the chance of helping someone...sometimes I stop, because some of the pain you were talking about does affect everyone's life, including mine...then I start again, because I am aware that idleness leads nowhere and there's no winner when you just let your life knock you down (to focus on  someone else's unhappiness may help to justify a personal uneasiness, but won't help ourselves or the ones who are suffering)...

I don't know whether I am really indifferent or simply anaesthetized, I even don't know what happiness is, perhaps that's to share feelings, emotions, moments with the ones we love. What I know is that pain is necessarily part of it

DDT


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## Everness

Benjy said:
			
		

> is it possible to be happy without being (at least to some degree) indifferent OR ignorant to the suffering/unhappiness of others?



It all depends on what your definition of happiness is. Jesus' understanding of happiness is at odds with the way many or most people define it today. Jesus' beatitudes (Matthew 5) are other-centered. He says, for instance, "Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy."  You sow mercy and you reap happiness. For many people that doesn't make sense. It seems illogical. The logical thing would be to pursue and ensure our happiness, not someone else's. According to Jesus, this strategy takes you nowhere and you'll never experience happiness.


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## Benjy

ok. for the purposes of this thread how about defining happiness in the following way:

content with life. at ease with ones situation and standing within the universe/world/social milieu. 

are we happy with this? haha.


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## Everness

Benjy said:
			
		

> ok. for the purposes of this thread how about defining happiness in the following way:
> 
> content with life. at ease with ones situation and standing within the universe/world/social milieu.
> 
> are we happy with this? haha.



I'm happy. Jesus maybe not


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## VenusEnvy

My parents say I have a "bleeding heart". Benjy, I do think about unhappiness in the rest of the world. I think about how lucky I am to be living in America, with a family who loved me, with a good education, with everything I need. Happiness, however, is all relative. 

I'm sure there are richer people in other parts of the world thinking, "I feel sorry for people who have to wash their dishes by hand" or "[...] who have to work and go to school at the same time". You see to them, this would be unhappiness. But, to me, it's my livelihood. I may say the same thing about those who don't have a car. But, they may value this void.

With regards to worser aspects of unhappiness (murder, rape, starvation, tyranny), I don't let it get in the way of my happiness. This is no way to live. I simply do my part of a member of society. I volunteer sometimes, and when I am making enough money to be able to, I donate. I work during the day for a good cause. I am not saying I am a saint (I've done a good job of leaving out incriminating evidence of this here). What I do is all a product of who I am. And, that makes me happy.


*Benjy*: What personal conclusion did you come to on the plane?


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## Cath.S.

Hi all,  I'll try and be honest as anything else is pointless.

To me being aware of other people's suffering does not mean that I suffer with them, as I don't see what good it would do to add my suffering to theirs. Having said this, whenever I witness a person's suffering I do my best to try and soothe _it if this is what they want_. Life has shown me that people don't necessaily want te be rid of their pain.  

Now if they want my help I provide it *because it makes me feel happy* and useful. If I don't help where I could, my own carelessness makes me feel sad and worthless. So this is a form of selfishness.

Also, there has to be a limit. I refuse to feel responsibility for ills that are beyond me, the media come to me and show me horror - I don't want to look if there is nothing I can do, all it does is make me feel impotent and that'is a lie, a noxious illusion: in everyday life we all can have a positive effect upon the world.


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## cuchuflete

Everness said:
			
		

> I'm happy. Jesus maybe not


I'm happy that Everness spoke for himself and had the good grace not to try to speak for the other party mentioned in his post.  I think humility is a prerequisite for happiness.  So...back to Benjy's original question...seeing the misfortune of others reminds me that my own condition is a gift, not to be assumed or taken lightly.


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## Benjy

VenusEnvy said:
			
		

> *Benjy*: What personal conclusion did you come to on the plane?



mmmm... well. this might sound rediculous but sometimes i avoid walking into town cause of the homeless people there. let me qualify that: it breaks my heart that to see them :/ because i really can't do much at the moment a part from offer the occasional slice of pizza which isn't really useful in the long run.

my *personal* opinion is that i personally could not stand to be aware, to a degree to allow empathy, of all the upset and unhappiness that there is in the world. i don't think i could deal with that, i find watching my parents disillusionment with their marriage too much as it is lol. and so in some measure for me to enjoy my own life i have to be pour reprendre the term that lv4-26 used oblivious to what is going on around me.

having said that, i think to doing what one can to resolve in whatever measure possible the problems we see around us can make us feel useful and somehow justified in having (and yes this is subjective) "more" (fill that in with whatever makes you happy) than others. i guess that is selfish in someways (egueule), but not totally. i find it hard to belive that when we extend help to others our overriding thought is "this is going to make me feel good about me".


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## Sev

egueule said:
			
		

> Hi all, I'll try and be honest as anything else is pointless.
> 
> To me being aware of other people's suffering does not mean that I suffer with them, as I don't see what good it would do to add my suffering to theirs. Having said this, whenever I witness a person's suffering I do my best to try and soothe _it if this is what they want_. Life has shown me that people don't necessaily want te be rid of their pain.
> 
> Now if they want my help I provide it *because it makes me feel happy* and useful. If I don't help where I could, my own carelessness makes me feel sad and worthless. So this is a form of selfishness.*I know you are talking about you, egueule, and you don't want to generalize, but I say that it's a true statement for many people. We just don't want to accept it, so thank you for that honesty. I just want to say that selfishness is a part of the reasons why we help, we just have to think honestly about how big is this part in our motivation...*
> 
> Also, there has to be a limit. I refuse to feel responsibility for ills that are beyond me, the media come to me and show me horror - I don't want to look if there is nothing I can do, all it does is make me feel impotent and that'is a lie, a noxious illusion: in everyday life we all can have a positive effect upon the world.


  I simply agree with everything you wrote here.


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## LV4-26

You're right, Sev : thank God, there is what I call an "égoïsme bien compris" (well understood selfishness ? or positive selfishness...?).


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## charlie2

I am fortunate or unfortunate enough not to know too much about suffering. Unfortunate, because I think I could appreciate happiness better if I know more about suffering.

I know about illness(es). I was ill and recovery was almost as bad as the illness. Strangely enough when I was in _it_, I never thought I was suffering, but _the others_ did. One of the patients actually asked me why I did not commit suicide and end it all.
When I finally checked out of the centre recovered (I could never fully recover) the nurse asked me : Do you know how bad you were when you first arrived here? I was stunned and could not answer.
So much about _suffering_, me and _the others_. 

I do not usually do this kind of reflections, but I 'll try here.

1. I do not think I can actually say anyone is suffering. It is only your projection of suffering. _If I were him, I would feel so much pain._ Remember the patient who thought I should kill myself?
2. Because of my own illness (repeated in fact), I am content with life and at ease with my situation. _And standing within the universe/world/social milieu/_ Sorry, I haven't got that far.  I can't understand what it would involve.
3. Because I have been there, whenever I see someone ill, especially those in the hospital, I feel very strongly for them. I know that patient's uniform. I have been in it for too long. But I am fully aware that illness is a fact of life. I would just wish them strength.
4. Whenever I see suffering as I project it, whenever I see injustice or lies, I consciously try to do something positive to myself and others. I would remind myself to try to be fair. I would be secretly happy that I don't normally lie.  

I hope I have not gone off-topic.


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## o'clock

Mi opinión se la he robado a JAIME GIL DE BIEDMA, de su libro LAS PERSONAS DEL VERBO.

De vita beata

En un viejo país ineficiente,
algo así como España entre dos guerras
civiles, en un pueblo junto al mar,
poseer una casa y poca hacienda
y memoria ninguna. No leer,
no sufrir, no escribir, no pagar cuentas,
y vivir como un noble arruinado
entre las ruinas de mi inteligencia.

Un saludo cordial,


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## Everness

The relentless pursuit of happiness turns happiness into a mirage. Your senses and your emotions can experience gratification but it's short-lived. Things started to change in my life when I finally "got" what Jesus said, "Whoever tries to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it." In my experience, happiness has always been a by-product of investing myself in other people. 

However, I still have relapses and I enjoy them!    But I now know that the happiness I'll reap is fake.


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## lainyn

What you say is so GOOD, everness!

And no, Ben, we can't be aware of all the world's suffering and be happy - we'd actually die of grief more likely. I know I would. I already cry on almost a daily basis on someone else's behalf. But what good would it do to give up my tuition money to feed some starving people for a day? I have to believe that what I am doing will benefit everyone with the end-good...net output, etc. You can do more good when you are well-equipped and financially stable anyways. There are REASONS we live in bubbles and personal vacuums...some just can't handle or just don't want to handle the bad news. Why do you think so many people just don't watch the televised news programmes anymore? It's too sad and painful.


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## Everness

I got via email this interesting feedback from another forero regarding one of my recent posts.

Dear Everness, you are on the right track but you are still missing something important.  Estoy de acuerdo contigo cuando dices que la felicidad es un by-product, sin embargo no creo que sea consecuencia del invertir en los demás.  Considero que la felicidad es en cambio consecuencia de alcanzar cierto estado de consciencia en el que nos encontramos libres del miedo (otra vez hago mención de tu amigo inseparable).  Miedo a qué exactamente?  A no obtener la aprobación que esperamos, a equivocar el intento de ser perfectos, a no ser tan sabios e inteligentes como pensamos  deber. Creo que Jesús en este versículo nos advierte acerca de nuestra tendencia a dejarnos paralizar por las dudas:  Qué sucederá mañana?  Estaré bien?  Podré salir de este problema? Puedes ver en estas preguntas un deseo de proteger la propia vida? 

Si la receta para la felicidad fuera entregarse a los demás, te aseguro mi abuela sería la mujer más feliz del planeta.  Lamentablemente no es así. 

Muchos, casi todos, quizá todos pensamos así:  Me entrego a ti porque al hacerlo reafirmo lo excelente persona que soy.  Me entrego a ti porque cuando hago esto tu respuesta me hace sentir aceptado, aprobado. Te das cuenta de lo bueno que soy?


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## LV4-26

lainyn said:
			
		

> There are REASONS we live in bubbles and personal vacuums...some just can't handle or just don't want to handle the bad news.


This is why I don't consider being oblivious to others' sufferings as an evidence of selfishness. Again, the "bad news" may concern the others but may concern yourself as well. (we're all gonna die one day, that sort of thing).
I rather see this as the ostrich syndrom. (don't know if you guys have an expression about hiding your head in the sand as an ostrich). Then the motto is 'I don't want to know' which also includes 'I don't want to know what will happen *to me* *later* lest it might make me unhappy *now*'.


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## lauranazario

We live in a world where mas communication does put us in contact (or at least makes us aware) of the suffering taking place in other parts of the world.

I, as an individual, feel sadness and empathy towards these people's suffering, be it born out of years of neglect, political opression, a natural disaster or any other cause. 

Seeing how my life is so different from theirs makes me feel grateful and humble for all the things I've been blessed with. I often thank God (I'm a Catholic) for having had the luck to be living in the conditions I live in, to have the health I have, and all the things we often take for granted --until we glance at a another corner of the globe. 

Suffering in other parts of the world makes me put my own life in perspective, and compared to them I can honestly say that I have a "happy" life... and part of my happiness derives from the fact that I appreciate and am thankful (from a religious point of view--which was Ben's original question), and that in turn makes me feel more inclined to contribute... be it clothes for the needy, blood for the Red Cross, money for a relief fund, etc.


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## te gato

Very tough question..
I think that in every persons life there are trials and tribulations..but we look for the bright side of other things to make us happy..so therefore you can have both. If you did not, I feel the we would all be insane in a matter of months.

We all 'feel' for others..or I would like to think that we do..for that is what makes us different than animals...we know that the other person is suffering...yet at the same time we have happiness in our own lives..are we to feel guilty over this? I think NO.

It is what makes us human..our compassion for others. We try to help..when we can...some things we can do nothing about but give a kind word, or gesture..and that as small as it seems..brings a little happiness to both us and the other person.

Even in our own lives we have problems..some of us have more than their fair share...but even with all that we still look for some form of happiness. I know that personally with everything that I am going through right now, I still have some forms of happiness..I look to the good things in my life that make me happy..and I do not begrudge others for being happy..for what would that accomplish?

And honestly..how many times have you said or thought..'I'm happy I'm not in their shoes'....

for if anyone wants my life..it would make me very happy to give it to you.. 

tg


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