# separar a alma do cérebro



## GamblingCamel

Os engenheiros médicos e psicólogos leveram dezenove semanas para separar a alma do paciente do seu cérebro.

I'm building from the apparently fixed PT expression: separar a alma do corpo.

Taking into consideration that this sentence is part of a sci-fi short story, please suggest ways to improve in PT.


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## Leandro

Gambling, we do not use "separar a alma do cérebro" that's sound weird. It's just as you've said it yourself "separar a alma do corpo"-a fixed PT expression. I don't think there's an alternative in this case.

When we say "body" in this case we mean "everthing", including the brain itself.


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## GamblingCamel

Leandro said:


> Gambling, we do not use "separar a alma do cérebro" that's sound weird. It's just as you've said it yourself "separar a alma do corpo"-a fixed PT expression. I don't think there's an alternative in this case.
> When we say "body" in this case we mean "everthing", including the brain itself.



We don't say "separate the soul from the brain" in English, but I definitely can say that in a work of fiction as long as it makes sense in terms of narrative context.

Once upon a time nobody said in English "wormhole" or "two wormholes later".  And what the body _is_ or _is not _is still an unresolved metaphysical question.


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## marta12

Separar o espírito do cérebro

E se a alma estiver no coração e não no cérebro, Gambling?


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## Leandro

marta12 said:


> Separar o espírito do cérebro
> 
> E se a alma estiver no coração e não no cérebro, Gambling?



Marta, that's what I'm talking about. It'll depend on the context and on the Knowledge of the audience. It should be made clear if the soul is in the brain or in the heart. If, from previous citations, the audience can tell that the soul is IN the brain then you can clearly state "separar a alma do cérebro". Otherwise it'll sound way too weird.


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## GamblingCamel

Leandro said:


> Marta, that's what I'm talking about. It'll depend on the context and on the Knowledge of the audience. It should be made clear if the soul is in the brain or in the heart. If, from previous citations, the audience can tell that the soul is IN the brain then you can clearly state "separar a alma do cérebro". Otherwise it'll sound way too weird.


Okay, that's a fair analysis.
I'm trying to get confirmation from PT speakers that the sentence is at least okay in terms of syntax and grammar.  
Believability -- or linguistic "naturalness" -- is a separate issue.
Enjoy your evenings, L and M !!

Man, do you guys really think the soul is in the heart? IDEA! I'll use you two as the models for the heretic rebels who are in conflict with the medical engineers and psychologists.


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## marta12

Na meditação, o espírito/alma/ o que se queira chamar, entra pelo topo da cabeça, desenvolve-se no coração e continua pelos restantes chacras.

Eu não sei é se há espírto, alma, ou outra coisa qualquer e se houver, não sei onde está localizada.


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## Audie

GamblingCamel said:


> Os engenheiros*,* *os* médicos e *os* psicólogos  lev*a*ram dezenove semanas para separar a alma do paciente do seu  cérebro.


In case you mean three people. If not (and you meant "engenheiros médicos"), ignore the correction in blue.


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## Joca

GamblingCamel said:


> Okay, that's a fair analysis.
> I'm trying to get confirmation from PT speakers that the sentence is at least okay in terms of syntax and grammar.
> Believability -- or linguistic "naturalness" -- is a separate issue.
> Enjoy your evenings, L and M !!
> 
> Man, do you guys really think the soul is in the heart? IDEA! I'll use you two as the models for the heretic rebels who are in conflict with the medical engineers and psychologists.


 
I think the sentence is ok in terms of syntax and grammar, but I was wondering if the verb extrair wouldn't be a better choice here. What was their goal after all? 

Os médicos-engenheiros ou os engenheiros-médicos? Are they primarily engineers or physicians?


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## GamblingCamel

Joca, the surgeons are medical doctors with training in artificial intelligence. 
I want to emphasize that the operation also involves re-engineering of the patient's "soulless" brain. 

Is médicos-engenheiros the term that puts more emphasis on engineering? If that's the case, I'd write "Os médicos-engenheiros e os psicólogos levaram" 
(and thank you Audie for correcting the article and verb mistakes).


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## Joca

GamblingCamel said:


> Joca, the surgeons are medical doctors with training in artificial intelligence.
> I want to emphasize that the operation also involves re-engineering of the patient's "soulless" brain.
> 
> Is médicos-engenheiros the term that puts more emphasis on engineering? If that's the case, I'd write "Os médicos-engenheiros e os psicólogos levaram"
> (and thank you Audie for correcting the article and verb mistakes).


 
Hmm, I'd rather say "médicos-engenheiros", but I am not sure if an hyfen is in or out of place here. Or say simply "médicos", since I gather that the author tells about their training in artificial intelligence at some point earlier, if you see what I mean. 

I also think that some more context would help here. But as far as I am concerned the sentence looks fine.


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## GamblingCamel

Joca, I forgot to say before that I like EXTRAIR. It's a better verb. In EN it would be "It took 19 days to extract the soul from the brain."

If I were talking about a magician priest who draws souls out of bodies, which PT verb would I use?
TO DRAW: to cause to come out of a container or source <draw water for a bath> <the nurse drew a blood sample> <the wound drew blood>

Martin Luther: When I was in Rome, a disputation was openly held, at which were present thirty learned doctors besides myself, against the pope's power; 
he boasting, that with his right hand he commands the angels in heaven, and with his left _draws souls out of purgatory_, and that his person is mingled with the godhead.


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## Joca

GamblingCamel said:


> Joca, I forgot to say before that I like EXTRAIR. It's a better verb. In EN it would be "It took 19 days to extract the soul from the brain."
> 
> If I were talking about a magician priest who draws souls out of bodies, *which PT verb would I use?*
> TO DRAW: to cause to come out of a container or source <draw water for a bath> <the nurse drew a blood sample> <the wound drew blood>
> 
> Martin Luther: When I was in Rome, a disputation was openly held, at which were present thirty learned doctors besides myself, against the pope's power;
> he boasting, that with his right hand he commands the angels in heaven, and with his left _draws souls out of purgatory_, and that his person is mingled with the godhead.


 
RETIRAR, EXTRAIR, EXORCIZAR (not sure about this one)...

SEPARAR is too mild in my opinion. It may or may not involve great physical efforts.


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## Johannes

Gosto de exorcizar se for feito por um mágico.
Acho que exorcisar é mais "drive out" , expell, than "draw out".
a magician priest who _drives_ souls out of bodies


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## GamblingCamel

Johannes said:


> Gosto de exorcizar se for feito por um mágico.
> Acho que exorcisar é mais "drive out" , expell, than "draw out".
> a magician priest who _drives_ souls out of bodies


You're right. _Drawing out souls_ does not convey the violence of an exorcism.
_Driving souls out of bodies_ is not typical EN phrasing, but heck! as I said earlier, that's not always relevant in fiction. THanks, Johannes.

EDIT: An interesting sentence from a 19th Century source.
"Accordingly these dervishes have the power of driving out illness, caused almost always by the djinn, by taking it upon themselves."


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## Joca

Gambling:

Em vez de "cérebro", você não poderia usar "mente"?

Mind instead of brain?


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## marta12

Para mim, 'extrair' é o verbo que deveria usar. 19 semanas requer muito esforço, 'separar' não chega para dar essa ideia de esforço.


Joca!

A mente é "trabalhada" por psicólogos.
O cérebro por cirurgiões.


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## Joca

marta12 said:


> Para mim, 'extrair' é o verbo que deveria usar. 19 semanas requer muito esforço, 'separar' não chega para dar essa ideia de esforço.
> 
> 
> Joca!
> 
> A mente é "trabalhada" por psicólogos.
> O cérebro por cirurgiões.


 
É verdade, Marta, mas hoje em dia, nunca se sabe ao certo, uma vez que as profissões já não estão tão bem delimitadas assim. Elas parecem se superpor, se imiscuir umas às outras, ainda que, por outro lado, vivamos num mundo de especialistas. 
Mas, pensando bem, Gambling deve manter "cérebro". Apenas pensei em mente por combinar mais com alma, sendo ambas abstratas. E também porque ele menciona psicólogos.


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## GamblingCamel

Joca said:


> Mas, pensando bem, Gambling deve manter "cérebro". Apenas pensei em mente por combinar mais com alma, sendo ambas abstratas. E também porque ele menciona psicólogos.



Guys, in my fictional sentence I will use CÉREBRO. I'm hoping that it will exercise semantic power in an inverse fashion; readers will pay attention to it specifically because they customarily associate ALMA with MENTE.

In another 100 years, there may likely be additional nouns for describing "consciousness" and "electrical matter."  For the time being, I'll have to work with the few we have (unless I am somehow able to take "a bit of a turn" into the future).


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