# BCS: Present of "reći" "рећи" (and perfective verbs in general)



## BjesniStakor

In Croatian and Serbian, one cannot say the present of "reći" or "рећи".
Why is that? Why is govoriti or kazati used?
E.g. Kažem ti. Govorim ti.
Кажем ти. Говорим ти. 
But not: rekam ti. рекам ти.
But it is fine in other tenses:
Rekoh, rekao, reći ću.
I am a native Croatian speaker but this has always puzzled me.


----------



## doorman

Stvar je u tome što je _reći_ svršeni glagol. Kad se govori u prezentu, izgovaranje nečega se doživljava kao nesvršena radnja, pa stoga treba koristiti nesvršene glagole.


----------



## DenisBiH

BjesniStakor said:


> In Croatian and Serbian, one cannot say the present of "reći" or "рећи".
> Why is that? Why is govoriti or kazati used?
> E.g. Kažem ti. Govorim ti.
> Кажем ти. Говорим ти.
> But not: rekam ti. рекам ти.
> But it is fine in other tenses:
> Rekoh, rekao, reći ću.
> I am a native Croatian speaker but this has always puzzled me.



Reći has present tense forms.

reknem, rekneš, rekne, reknemo, reknete, reknu

These sound perfectly normal to me. HJP also lists the form rečem (rečeš etc.) which sounds somewhat archaic / dialectal.

Why it isn't used that much, someone else might know.


----------



## DenisBiH

doorman said:


> Stvar je u tome što je _reći_ svršeni glagol. Kad se govori u prezentu, izgovaranje nečega se doživljava kao nesvršena radnja, pa stoga treba koristiti nesvršene glagole.




A šta sa izgovorim?

Na kraju i kazati je svršeni glagol.


----------



## nexy

I meni zvuči normalno _reknem, rekneš_ (po ovom principu se menjaju i _poreći, izreći_ - _poreknem, izreknem_...), ali umesto ovih oblika uvek koristim _kažem, kažeš_...

HJP also lists the form rečem (rečeš etc.)

Ovaj oblik baš često srećem u dalmatinskom dijalektu:

Ja rečen
Ti rečeš
On/a reče
Mi rečemo
Vi rečete
Oni rečedu


----------



## TriglavNationalPark

nexy said:


> Ovaj oblik baš često srećem u dalmatinskom dijalektu:
> 
> Ja rečen
> Ti rečeš
> On/a reče
> Mi rečemo
> Vi rečete
> Oni rečedu


 
Slično je u slovenskom:

jaz rečem
ti rečeš
on/a reče
midva rečeva
vidva rečeta
onadva/oni rečeta
mi rečemo
vi rečete
oni/one rečejo


----------



## DenisBiH

Ja uglavnom koristim kažem, ali ne bih rekao da bi mi reknem bilo totalno nepoznato u prezentu.

Da ti reknem nešto - ...
Da ti kažem nešto - ...

Između ovo dvoje kažem mi zvuči "standardoliko", ili "bland" po engleskom, a reknem opet obilježeno, po registru (familijarno) ili stilski. Ali bolje bi bilo čuti i mišljenja drugih forumaša.


----------



## doorman

DenisBiH said:


> A šta sa izgovorim?


_Izgovoriti_ je svršeni glagol, a njegov nesvršeni brat je _izgovarati_. Ali moram priznati da ne vidim kakve to ima veze sa diskusijom 



DenisBiH said:


> Na kraju i kazati je svršeni glagol.


Hmmm, da, imaš pravo ... 



DenisBiH said:


> Da ti reknem nešto - ...
> Da ti kažem nešto - ...


Ja bih rekao da se ovdje radi o imperativu, a ne prezentu.


----------



## Sane Helle

I've learned that "kazati" is both perfective and imperfective, like "čuti" or "imati".


----------



## nexy

_Kazati_ is perfective. _Kazivati (kazujem, kazuješ...) _is imperfective.


----------



## DenisBiH

> _Izgovoriti_ je svršeni glagol, a njegov nesvršeni brat je _izgovarati_. Ali moram priznati da ne vidim kakve to ima veze sa diskusijom


Zbog ovoga:



> Kad se govori u prezentu, izgovaranje nečega se doživljava kao nesvršena radnja, pa stoga treba koristiti nesvršene glagole.


Prezentski oblici od svršenog izgovoriti se sasvim sigurno mogu koristiti, no rekao bih ne nezavisno, no u konstrukcijama tipa "Kad izgovorim tvoje ime osjećam se..." itd. Ovo "treba koristiti" mi je djelovalo čudno, jer prezent svršenih glagola za govor očito ima svoju upotrebu.




> Ja bih rekao da se ovdje radi o imperativu, a ne prezentu.


Imperativu? Meni ovo najviše sliči konjunktivu po upotrebi, možda slično španskom deja(me) que te *diga* "pusti/daj da ti kažem", ali konjunktiv mi nemamo kao zasebni oblik. Nisam siguran ni kako bi se ovo moglo klasificirati kao imperativ, ali možda griješim. Ovo je formom prezent.


----------



## nexy

DenisBiH said:


> Imperativu? Meni ovo najviše sliči konjunktivu po upotrebi, možda slično španskom deja que te *diga* "pusti/daj da ti kažem", ali konjunktiva mi nemamo kao zasebni oblik. Nisam siguran ni kako bi se ovo moglo klasificirati kao imperativ, ali možda griješim. Ovo je formom prezent.



Slažem se. Uostalom, ne postoji imperativ u prvom licu jednine.


----------



## Sane Helle

nexy said:


> _Kazati_ is perfective. _Kazivati (kazujem, kazuješ...) _is imperfective.


I'm sorry to insist, but I've checked the doc that my linguistics  teacher gave me, and "kazati" is listed as a verb which can be either  perfective or imperfective depending on the context. Which is only  logical if you think about how it's used...

However, I was wrong about "imati". According to my doc, it is only considered imperfective.

Among the other verbs that can have 2 aspects, there are:
- perception verbs: vid(j)eti, čuti, razum(j)eti
- "meal" verbs": doručkovati, ručati, večerati
- "international" verbs with -irati, -isati, -ovati suffixes: studirati, kontrolirati / kontrolisati, etc.
- biti has the 2 aspects in the perfect, however in the present, the aspects are differentiated between jesam (imperfective) and budem (perfective).


----------



## Duya

Preporučujem članak

Pranjković, Ivo: _Glagoli govorenja i njihove dopune_. Zbornik Matice srpske za slavistiku
2007, br. 71-72, str. 133-141.

download (2.5 MB)


----------



## phosphore

Sane Helle said:


> I'm sorry to insist, but I've checked the doc that my linguistics teacher gave me, and "kazati" is listed as a verb which can be either perfective or imperfective depending on the context. Which is only logical if you think about how it's used...
> 
> However, I was wrong about "imati". According to my doc, it is only considered imperfective.
> 
> Among the other verbs that can have 2 aspects, there are:
> - perception verbs: vid(j)eti, čuti, razum(j)eti
> - "meal" verbs": doručkovati, ručati, večerati
> - "international" verbs with -irati, -isati, -ovati suffixes: studirati, kontrolirati / kontrolisati, etc.
> - biti has the 2 aspects in the perfect, however in the present, the aspects are differentiated between jesam (imperfective) and budem (perfective).


 
How could "kazati" be used as imperfective? For instance, "doručkuje već pola sata" is fine, but "kaže već pola sata" is certainly not. I think your teacher was wrong.


----------



## Sane Helle

Because you need a complement, I think. How about "She's been saying that she's tired for a half hour"? 

"Ona kaže da je umorna već pola sata". Is that wrong? Or "Stalno kaže da je umorna"?

 And how would you describe the use of kazati in the present tense? Now, I'm just learning about aspects (in French there aren't any), so it's a genuine question. 
When you say : on joj kaže da je lijepa. It means (or can mean) : he's telling her that she's pretty. Isn't that considered imperfective?


----------



## Duya

HJP takođe tvrdi da je "kazati" samo svršen. Istina, to je jedan od rijetkih svršenih glagola koji može da stoji u glavnoj rečenici u pravom (ne-narativnom) prezentu:

_On kaže da je bio kod kuće._

...ali to ga još uvijek ne kvalifikuje za nesvršenog. Kako bi mu onda glasio imperfekt?


----------



## phosphore

Sane Helle said:


> Because you need a complement, I think. How about "She's been saying that she's tired for a half hour"?
> 
> "Ona kaže da je umorna već pola sata". Is that wrong? Or "Stalno kaže da je umorna"?
> 
> And how would you describe the use of kazati in the present tense? Now, I'm just learning about aspects (in French there aren't any), so it's a genuine question.
> When you say : on joj kaže da je lijepa. It means (or can mean) : he's telling her that she's pretty. Isn't that considered imperfective?


 
In "ona kaže da je umorna već pola sata" the phrase "već pola sata" can modify only "umorna", and not "kaže". There might be some imperfective use however, and your teacher might be right after all. For instance, it is true that "kaže se" means "govori se" and that "kažem ti" means "govorim ti". But it is not a classical biaspeactual verb as "čuti", "videti" or "jesti".


----------



## Duya

(Sane Helle an I posted almost simultaneously, so here's the reply):



Sane Helle said:


> Because you need a complement, I think. How about "She's been saying that she's tired for a half hour"?
> 
> "Ona kaže da je umorna već pola sata". Is that wrong?


That's OK, but it does not mean nearly the same as Phosphore's sentence: she has been *tired* for half an hour, she has not been *saying* that for half an hour. 

You cannot say:

_*"Ona već pola sata kaže da je umorna". _

you have to use "kazuje" or "govori".



Sane Helle said:


> Or "Stalno kaže da je umorna"?



No, that's not fine (but only just; I can imagine a native speaker saying that). To make it grammatical, use "svaki put" rather than "stalno" (or "govori" instead of "kaže"). You may express a habitual or repetitive action through perfective verbs, but you cannot use a durative adverb (stalno) with it:

_On [često] popije vino poslije ručka. _



Sane Helle said:


> And how would you describe the use of kazati in the present tense? Now, I'm just learning about aspects (in French there aren't any), so it's a genuine question.
> When you say : on joj kaže da je lijepa. It means (or can mean) : he's telling her that she's pretty. Isn't that considered imperfective?



As I said, "kazati" is indeed one of rare perfective verbs which can be used in present proper. However, "_on joj kaže da je lijepa_" can be parsed, depending on context, as:

1. "He *told* her she was pretty" (at an unspecified recent time)
2. "He's *telling* her she is pretty" (every time they meet), or
3. "He *tells* her she is pretty" (in a narrative context, i.e. I'm telling you how the events unfolded).

Without context, 1) would be taken as default.

So, we can conclude that "kazati" is an, um, _nearly_ bi-aspectual verb, but it's not there yet.


----------



## Sane Helle

I see, thank you for clarifying that. Linguistics can sometimes get so theoritical that if you don't have concrete examples, it can be hard to put things into perpective.
Especially with BCS, where there are so many grammar exceptions and/or blurredness, along with differences of use depending on the speakers.
Boy, I still have a lot to learn..!


----------



## lucabembich

Excuse me, where can I find a list of serbo/croatian perfective/imperfective verbs??


----------



## kloie

the verb рећи is not used in present but past only, and fpr imperfect and perfective you can use wikipedia.


----------



## yael*

nexy said:


> I meni zvuči normalno _reknem, rekneš_ (po ovom principu se menjaju i _poreći, izreći_ - _poreknem, izreknem_...), ali umesto ovih oblika uvek koristim _kažem, kažeš_...


Normalno? Hmmm... kod nas se to vrlo neuobičajeno i vrlo neformalno, kolokvijalno... ili, kako bi rekli, seljački (i to bez uvrede, jer se zaista više koristi na selu). U prezentu, bilo da je indikativ ili imperativ u pitanju, koristi se _kazati_.


----------



## Duya

lucabembich said:


> Excuse me, where can I find a list of serbo/croatian perfective/imperfective verbs??



In any dictionary. Half our verbs are perfective, and the other half is imperfective, so there's hardly a separate "list".


----------



## Tassos

lucabembich said:


> Excuse me, where can I find a list of serbo/croatian perfective/imperfective verbs??


I personally use wiktionary - it has a lot of BCS verbs, marks the aspect for each of them and most of the times
has the other "aspect pair" verb. It's the most convenient source on the net I have found thus far.
E poi è in inglese, e dunque tu puoi capire che stanno dicendo 
But as for lists, I don't think there is anything out there, just some small ones used as examples.


----------

