# Children losing their forefather's language



## Residente Calle 13

Hi,

My parents speak Spanish and I speak Spanish but my nephews don't and won't. I have two nieces who do and will but they live in a town where most people speak Spanish. Where my nephews live, most people speak English.

Spanish-speakers in the US are, by in large, passing down their language to the next generation in many cases but in many families, it's disappearing. I have mant Hispanic friends who speak very little Spanish and some who speak none.

In a sense, it's a shame they will never speak the language of the forefathers but in another sense, they are assimilating to the culture of their country and are 'fitting in.'

Have you witnessed language loss? Do you not speak the language of your parents or do you know anybody who's in the situation my nephews are in? Do you live in region where another language was traditionally spoken but is now being replaced by a national language?


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## grumpus

Hi Residente Calle 13,

yes, this is a big and important issue.  The U.S. is particularly backward with respect to promoting bi/tri lingualism.  Spain is a much better model, regional languages are preserved and promoted.   
The way I see it is, children will speak the language of their peers and because Spanish has "second class" status in the U.S., it is not promoted in the schools, only English is.  And, therefore, English will become the dominant language of the children. This is a crime.

I live in the binational region of San Diego/Tijuana.  The "pueblos/people" are binational, but you would not realize it if you looked at the "dominant culture" of San Diego -- only anglo culture/ English language are promoted.  Again, I see this as profoundly ignorant not to mention very short-sighted.   

So far it doesn't appear to me that this will change in the near future.  In the long term, it will have to.

Saludos,
Grumpus


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## lazarus1907

It is unlikely that "Spanish" will disappear in the near future. People keep using Spanish even when they go to the USA, but unfortunately, those who want to get good jobs and be "someone", learn English and forget about Spanish as soon as they can, because it is a "second class language" and English is the future, so many of those remaining ones who only speak Spanish do not normally have a good education, do not speak proper Spanish either or care about grammar (like we freaks do here) or proper use of the language. Spanish is eventually condemned to be a highly degraded and "contaminated" language in the end. Many other countries are absorbing English terminology and culture, but they preserve their own to a certain extent... because they don't live in an English-speaking country, of course; China, to name one.


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## Edher

Hola Residente Calle 13,

      I've been living in California for quite some time now and I have witnessed everything that you mentioned. It is quite common in this region of the country to come across Chicanos that only speak English. After interacting with them for a while I always ask them why don't they speak Spanish and I could see them quickly get uneasy. I think this is because in many cases they are ashamed of speaking Spanish because they are afraid of being percieved as stereotypical Mexican immigrants. In other words, they choose not to even take Spanish classes because it is "not cool." In fact, some of them are proud not to speak Spanish because I guess they feel more Anglo-American, (more assimilated maybe) since they attempt to speak Spanish like them by placing an "o" at the end of every word. Yet, this is hilarious when they speak English with a thick Spanish accent, but again, they don't speak Spanish according to them. Another extremity, when they try really hard to speak with an "anglo valley girl/surfer" accent with their friends and when you see they're parents approach them speaking in Spanish they glow of embarrasement. I don't blame them personally for this. I think the media is to blame since foreigners are usually ridiculed in comedies.

I've also been told that in some cases the reason why their parents didn't teach them Spanish was simply because "it wasn't a good time to be Mexican." In other words, they were afraid that their children were going to be highly discriminated against for speaking Spanish.

But of course, I've also met Chicanos that really put an effort in learning Spanish because they are proud of their culture. Too bad that in my case, these are rare. 

I guess this has happened with immigrants from other countries during different times. I also wondered how and when German, Italian, Dutch, French, etc lost their language. I'm assuming it might be for the same reason maybe "it wasn't a good time to be a foreigner."

Edher


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## lazarus1907

Hi Edher,

My brother went to L.A. many years ago to visit a "mexican" guy we met in Spain claimed to speak English as a first language. My brother did not learn any English over there staying with his family; in fact, he came with mexican accent. Apparently, his entire family refused to speak English except the guy we met, who seemed to be afraid/ashamed of admitting his family and mother tongue are Spanish, and prefer to speak English all the time.


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## Residente Calle 13

Thanks to all for the answers.

I have another question for the people from Spain. Do you have the same problem with Basque, Catalán or Gallego in Spain? Do kids feel embarrassed to be caught speaking their regional languages?

I have another question for our friends for Spain but I think it might be off-topic. I *could *start another thread and if the mods think it's the same issue, I think they can just merge them. Is that ok, mods?

[psst...it's about code-switching]


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## mariovargas

I was born and raised in Venezuela for 17 years and then came to the US. Spanish is of course my first language. When I came to the US, I refused to speak Spanish with other Hispanic speakers (in fact I avoided going out with Hispanic people) because I wanted to improve my English. 

At that time I didn't care if I forgot my mother tongue because I thought it was "cool" if I did. How wrong I was! Now I am working on translating a highly challenging and technical website from English to Spanish and I've found it hard to avoid using literal translations and to make sense of them. Perhaps some users of this forum have realized that after reading my translations. It makes me feel bad that I did not appreciate my mother tongue when I could and I am making strides to "relearning" my first language. 

I am getting married with a Japanese woman next year with God's favor. I am now working on my third language: Japanese. I want my children to know all three languages. It will be of benefit to them in the future. Perhaps English will be their first language. I know that after the third generation those tongues will most likely fade away in my line. It is normal for the second or third generation to lose their mother language. I wish this wasn't the case.

In my opinion, the issue with this country is mostly pride about English and, as I've read in this thread, the stereotypical and downgrading view towards Mexican immigrants. I am in no way implying this is everyone's view. I am proud that my first language is Spanish and I wish everyone living in this country who has a Hispanic background (not necessarily Mexican) would appreciate and embrace their beautiful language.


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## lazarus1907

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> Thanks to all for the answers.
> 
> I have another question for the people from Spain. Do you have the same problem with Basque, Catalán or Gallego in Spain? Do kids feel embarrassed to be caught speaking their regional languages?
> 
> I have another question for our friends for Spain but I think it might be off-topic. I *could *start another thread and if the mods think it's the same issue, I think they can just merge them. Is that ok, mods?
> 
> [psst...it's about code-switching]



I am about to make a lot of enemies, but...

Gallegos speak "Castellano" most of the time, at least in front of people who don´t speak their dialect. I have watched a lot of "Televisión Gallega", and although it is different, it is understandable. It is a cute accent anyway.

¿Basque? Well... I have Basque family, Basque friends, and I have been there. I do not know anyone personally who speaks Basque, so....  

Catalan is another story. They are bilinguals, and they switch to "Castillian" as soon as they realize someone doesn´t speak Catalan, so they don´t have any problem.


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## lazarus1907

Well said, Mario



> I am getting married with a Japanese woman next year with God's favor. I am now working on my third language: Japanese. I want my children to know all three languages. It will be of benefit to them in the future. Perhaps English will be their first language. I know that after the third generation those tongues will most likely fade away in my line. It is normal for the second or third generation to lose their mother language. I wish this wasn't the case.



I have been living in the UK for the last 8-9 years, and I have married a Chinese woman (and tried to learn Japanses long ago: Talk to Spiceman). We want out children to benefit from the three most "important" languages in the world, so I refuse to forget mine, and I encourage my wife not to forget about hers.


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## Residente Calle 13

I have to say that I like the idea of a multilingual Spain. It demonstrates a great deal of tolerance. I know that historically bad things have happened but the effort being put into multilinguism today, despite its problems, is a sign of stregnth, I think. Especially when compared to many other countries who take a more "my way or the highway" approach. I read there are four million Catalan speakers and about two million Gallego speakers in Spain. That's not bad. Basque, my book says, around 750,000. Still not bad for a country of about 40 million.

Do you think, Lazarus, that the confidence Catalaners display about their language has something to do with how good they feel about Catalunia's role in Spain, economically, socially, culturally?...and they do have a damn good football team. (DISCLAIMER: I'm not a _*culé *_).


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## nichec

My response is to the first question being asked. A few years ago, there was a hugh immigration wave in Taiwan because of our problem with China. Many parents took their very young babies to USA or even had them born here. We call these kids who have 100% Taiwanese blood but can't speak a word in Chinese, not to mention Taiwanese, "ABC", which means "Americans Born as Chinese". I myself have some relatives and friends like that, they look Taiwanese, but that's about the only bit of Taiwanese you can get from them because they don't understand the language, the society, the culture, and everything that's related to Taiwan...The first time one of my godbrother went back to Taiwan, he was already 20 years old! And that's the first time he saw his "hometown" He married, of course, an American, and has a job and a house and a car in America, I don't think Taiwan means anything to him in the end of the day....

Even inside Taiwan, we are losing Taiwanese as a language which is being replaced by Chinese for quite some time now. I remember when I was a kid, we were punished in school for using Taiwanese to communicate....My grandmother who received her education when Japan was occupying Taiwan can only speak Taiwanese and Japanese, that's why I learn Taiwanese in order to be able to talk to her and not to forget my root.


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## cherine

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> Have you witnessed language loss? Do you not speak the language of your parents or do you know anybody who's in the situation my nephews are in? Do you live in region where another language was traditionally spoken but is now being replaced by a national language?


I have witnessed language loss, by others. Many Egyptians imigrates who lare living in Europe or the States don't teach their kids their mother tongue, maybe because they don't have time, are not interested, or have no one to practice it with, I'm not sure. But the sad thing is that there are several generations of people who don't speak their mother tongue and who, when back home for holiday or for good, can't speak the language or sound like foreigners.
I personaly don't see any problem with keeping one's mother tongue and "fitting in" in the new society, there's no contradiction in that.
And I also agree with the idea that the fear of being considered as "inferior" plays a great role in people's neglecting their mother tongues.


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## Residente Calle 13

Hi Cherine,

I have never felt embarrassed to speak Spanish but I understand and can appreciate how some people might have or still might today. I don't think you have to drop Spanish to fit in, not where I live, but to be honest, *if *I had to choose, I would rather my nephews do well even if it's at the expense of Spanish. English is priortity #1 in the US. 

Strangely enough, I'm more angry that Arabic speakers are not passing down Arabic to some of their kids!!! LOL! It's just something I've always wanted to do and think it's such a shame those kids are missing out on knowing Arabic.

I know some Arabs who don't speak Arabic in the US but they are in the minority here in NY in my circles. I'm sure that's not the case with most of the country though. I don't think Ralph Nader or John Sunnunu, for example, speak Arabic.

You, know, it's happened a million times before. If you go back far enough in time, you will find that somewhere in your family tree, somebody dropped a language for another. It still feels wrong, though.


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## Edher

Hola nuevamente,

       It's ironic that people feel better about themselves for not knowing something. You would think that knowing two languages (regardless of what that second language is) would make you feel a little extra special than say someone who only speaks with one language. If anything you would have an advantage. So much for "knowledge is power."

Edher


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## Residente Calle 13

I think this pride in "not knowing" has more to do with not "being something." For many people "I don't know that language" is synomymous with "I didn't just arrive in this country", "I'm not a illegal", and even "I'm not poor."

I was once stopped by the police in Puerto Rico and spoke to them in Spanish. One of the officers commented to the other that he could tell that I was "Dominican." Of course they could tell. Anybody in Puerto Rico can tell, after a little while, if you are from there or not.

In Puerto Rico, being Dominican is not always a good thing and can be *a big disadvantage*. Of course, knowing Spanish, I think, is a big advantage and especially in Puerto Rico (in most cases) but from that moment on I spoke entirely in English. It was a way of telling them I was a US citizen just like they were and demanded to be treated like one. I was going to pull out my passport but they said it wasn't necessary. They got the point.

Now that's a shame--and a bigger shame is that it mattered to them whether I was Dominican or not--but in that situation knowing only English would have been an advantage because, like it or not, speaking only English, or faking that I could only speak English, put me in a different group of people. And they could and would have made decisions based on who I was and how I spoke would influence those decisions.

So yeah, I told them, in English : "I don't speak Spanish." and this was after having a very long conversation with them in Spanish. It was my way of establishing my citizenship, my equality with any other Puerto Rican before the law.


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## Roi Marphille

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> Do you think, Lazarus, that the confidence Catalaners display about their language has something to do with how good they feel about Catalunia's role in Spain, economically, socially, culturally?...and they do have a damn good football team. (DISCLAIMER: I'm not a _*culé *_).


well, it has nothing to do with it. 
It's just a language, like any other. We love it, like any other may love his/her language. It's our heritage, it's important for us. 




PS:...and yes, we have a great team now.


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## Jpinzon

I think all the people must speaks more than one language, because some day you may need it. and spanish is an important language to learn. 
I think that all the people who think is embarrased or is not important other languages are wrong.

people dont have to discriminate you beacause your language.


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## Outsider

There are many Portuguese immigrants in Hispanoamerica (I have a few relatives there). After a few years, they usually come back speaking Spanish. Or at least that's what they sound like, to us. A couple of years ago, a TV station interviewed representatives from various immigrant communities around the world. The one who spoke the best Portuguese was from Canada!  
I suppose that, because English is so different from Portuguese, there isn't much interference between the two languages. Immigrants who go to Spanish speaking countries usually end up switching to Spanish. The Portuguese of immigrants in French speaking countries seems to change less, but they usually acquire a French accent, which sounds quite funny. 
I have some relatives in an English language country, as well (not the U.S.) The first generation still speaks perfect Portuguese (with the occasional anglicism). Their children, however, are much less comfortable with our language, although they did learn it at home. They sound like foreigners. 
I think it's inevitable that the descendants of immigrants will lose their original language, and I guess it's a good sign, that they're integrating well.


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## bernik

grumpus said:
			
		

> The U.S. is particularly backward with respect to promoting bi/tri lingualism.  Spain is a much better model, regional languages are preserved and promoted.
> The way I see it is, children will speak the language of their peers and because Spanish has "second class" status in the U.S., it is not promoted in the schools, only English is.  And, therefore, English will become the dominant language of the children. This is a crime.


The Basque language is the indigeneous language of the Basque country, whereas Spanish is not the indigeneous language of the United States. Give me an example of a country where the home language is being replaced by the language of an immigrant population. In France, you won't find any school teaching Arabic. I don't know about Spain.

I can see that all of you are taking the point of view of a newcomer who settles down in America or another country, and would like to keep his own national heritage at the same time. And it makes sense from his personal point of view. But when immigration takes place at a massive scale, you have to recognize that this is eroding the identity of the destination country. Southern California is not the same place it was 50 years ago. I think most Americans would like the Southern borders of the United States to be kept under surveillance so as to stop Mexican immigration. In Europe, immigration is increasing although most people oppose it.
Where I live, Breton was still the main language until 50 years ago. Now, it can hardly be heard at all in the streets. This was caused by government policy. But even if the government in Paris some day becomes more tolerant of linguistic diversity, I think immigration will make it impossible for the Breton language to ever come back. In 50 years, I think the place where I live will look very much like a part of the Paris suburbs (which have been in the news a few months ago). No one in Brittany will care about their country any longer. I think it is the same in the USA. At a personal level, it's great for Mexicans to be able to come to the United States. But I suspect many Americans are mourning the loss of their country. 

I think the opinions expressed on this forum are in line with what can be heard in the media, but are in contradiction with the way most Americans/Europeans really feel about immigration.


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## Residente Calle 13

Thanks for participating in the discussion, Bernik. But just for the record, I was not talking specifically about immigration or how that effected language change. I was asking about the process of children not speaking the language of their forefathers. But thanks for telling us what you think.


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## grumpus

bernik said:
			
		

> The Basque language is the indigeneous language of the Basque country, whereas Spanish is not the indigeneous language of the United States. Give me an example of a country where the home language is being replaced by the language of an immigrant population. In France, you won't find any school teaching Arabic. I don't know about Spain.
> 
> I can see that all of you are taking the point of view of a newcomer who settles down in America or another country, and would like to keep his own national heritage at the same time. And it makes sense from his personal point of view. But when immigration takes place at a massive scale, you have to recognize that this is eroding the identity of the destination country. Southern California is not the same place it was 50 years ago. I think most Americans would like the Southern borders of the United States to be kept under surveillance so as to stop Mexican immigration. In Europe, immigration is increasing although most people oppose it.
> Where I live, Breton was still the main language until 50 years ago. Now, it can hardly be heard at all in the streets. This was caused by government policy. But even if the government in Paris some day becomes more tolerant of linguistic diversity, I think immigration will make it impossible for the Breton language to ever come back. In 50 years, I think the place where I live will look very much like a part of the Paris suburbs (which have been in the news a few months ago). No one in Brittany will care about their country any longer. I think it is the same in the USA. At a personal level, it's great for Mexicans to be able to come to the United States. But I suspect many Americans are mourning the loss of their country.
> 
> I think the opinions expressed on this forum are in line with what can be heard in the media, but are in contradiction with the way most Americans/Europeans really feel about immigration.


 


Hi Bernik et al.

I disagree.  Spanish is far more "indigenous" to the region than is English.  Spanish has been in what is now the U.S.  (remember my region was stolen from Mexico) for more than 300 years.  English has not and will never be an official language, wasn't meant to be.  It's more based on xenophobia/racism of the dominant English speaking class.

There is no "identity" to the United States, it IS an immigrant country.   Genocide devasted the indigenous here so they have had little say in what should be the languages of this country.  English was the dominant language, but competed with Dutch, German and other languages.

A country where an immigrant group has replaced the language.  
Well, every single country that has suffered/suffers brutal French/English/Portuguese/Spanish colonialism. The language of Angola is Portuguese, the language of Liberia is English.  Do I need to go on? 

You are right.  The views of this forum are not the views of the "mainstream".

Saludos,
Grumpus


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## Residente Calle 13

In my country, the Dominican Republic, Spanish replaced Taino. But Taino was not the first language spoken there. The Tainos were a group who arrived on the island when it was already inhabited by the Ciboneyes, a people who were technologically less advanced than the Tainos and who the Tainos exterminated much like the Spanish exterminated them 500 years ago.

Spanish in not indigenous to Spain either. It's derived from an Italian language but even Latin is thought to come from "somewhere else" and current Historical Linguists posit that there Indoeuropean languages replaced local languages in Europe. 

Its not new at all, this language change. It's so old and I think it's so old it's boring.


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## bernik

_"It's more based on xenophobia/racism of the dominant English speaking class."_

Seeing how American authorities are allowing or encouraging immigration to happen, I would not call them xenophobic. I think there is very little racial violence from "the dominant English speaking class". If you had that kind of immigration in China, Africa, or the Middle East, you would have civil war.

_"There is no "identity" to the United States, it IS an immigrant country."_

Of course the Americans have an identity !

_"Its not new at all, this language change. It's so old and I think it's so old it's boring."_

Yes, I know. It is like dinosaurs. The dinosaurs have disappeared. Someday, man will disappear too, and some other creature will take our place. But why rush things ?


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## panjabigator

This has been a very interesting discussion.  When I was in growing up (although I still am...Im only 20), I never took any interest in being Indian.  I hated it, in fact.  I took no interest in learning the language and I really preffered the use of English.  My parents would say "speak to us in Hindi...we wont laugh" and I would roll my eyes and walk the other way.  They never made a big attempt to teach us anyway...my parents felt that English would be fine.  I hated it.  In high school, I was very embarrassed of my identity and pretty much knew nothing.  It is a very weird feeling, being a first generation in a new country....I felt like I belonged to neither community.  I would never be "Indian enough" and my skin color made it seem like I was a foreigner (and post 911 was no picinic).  Anyway, I started college and had a horrible roommate experience, and I found that I needed privacy to speak with my parents about the incredible injustice I had living with a drug addict slob.  I started speaking broken sentences and little by little it got better.  I became obsessed then when I realized it was a reality.  I remember I had my first dream in Hindi.  It was a good night hehe!  Anyway, I took classes and my fluency sky rocketed.  Then I tackled Punjabi.  I am now pretty fluent in both and only stumble every so often, which is expected after three years.  But I am like a preacher at school now practicly....a total 180!  I am always telling South Asians to speak more (with me) and a lot of them roll their eyes because they feel its strange (its really only natural for many to speak with their parents I guess) but many have actually taken an interest.  Its a move in the right direction.

I do not understand why, but I feel immigrants that live in an English speaking country are more prone to assimilation than in other countries.  And now in the news, there is talk of officializing English, but I really think that if they are going to do that, add Spanish on as well.  Predictions are that in 50 so years, this nation will be half hispanic.  Thats fine by me, but I see no harm in trying to preserve their heritage in the process.  Besides, being bilingual is an added advantage!


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## wsitiplaju

bernik said:
			
		

> I can see that all of you are taking the point of view of a newcomer who settles down in America or another country, and would like to keep his own national heritage at the same time. And it makes sense from his personal point of view. But when immigration takes place at a massive scale, you have to recognize that this is eroding the identity of the destination country. Southern California is not the same place it was 50 years ago. I think most Americans would like the Southern borders of the United States to be kept under surveillance so as to stop Mexican immigration. .


 
Indeed, when there was massive Anglo immigration to the US Southwest, the identity of the region was seriously eroded; English took over, and Spanish was marginalized.  However, I would like to point out that communities of Spanish-speakers, descended from those who occupied the region before it became part of the US, survive in the Southwest to this day.  This fact runs contrary to the idea, repeated frequently in this thread, that after a few generations the minority language "dies out."  Though these groups are quite small, compared to the vast majority of immigrant Spanish-speakers, I think it is important to remember them.  

In New York once I met a young man who was working at the UN.  As it became clear he was a native Spanish speaker, an older, Mexican man asked him where he was from.  "Colorado."  "Ah," the old man said knowingly, "Second generation."  "No," the young man replied, "Seventh.  We were there when the line crossed us."  

As for the topic of this thread, I studied my father's language, Chinese, in college, mostly because I wanted to study an Asian language and I had a slight head start in this one.  I am sure, though, that I was also motivated by some annoyance at being labelled a second-generation ignoramus.  I'm still an ignoramus, but somehow it doesn't bother me anymore now that I've spent a year in China.


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## lizzeymac

bernik said:
			
		

> The Basque language is the indigeneous language of the Basque country, whereas Spanish is not the indigeneous language of the United States. Give me an example of a country where the home language is being replaced by the language of an immigrant population. In France, you won't find any school teaching Arabic. I don't know about Spain.
> 
> I can see that all of you are taking the point of view of a newcomer who settles down in America or another country, and would like to keep his own national heritage at the same time. And it makes sense from his personal point of view. But when immigration takes place at a massive scale, you have to recognize that this is eroding the identity of the destination country. Southern California is not the same place it was 50 years ago. I think most Americans would like the Southern borders of the United States to be kept under surveillance so as to stop Mexican immigration. In Europe, immigration is increasing although most people oppose it.
> Where I live, Breton was still the main language until 50 years ago. Now, it can hardly be heard at all in the streets. This was caused by government policy. But even if the government in Paris some day becomes more tolerant of linguistic diversity, I think immigration will make it impossible for the Breton language to ever come back. In 50 years, I think the place where I live will look very much like a part of the Paris suburbs (which have been in the news a few months ago). No one in Brittany will care about their country any longer. I think it is the same in the USA. At a personal level, it's great for Mexicans to be able to come to the United States. But I suspect many Americans are mourning the loss of their country.
> 
> I think the opinions expressed on this forum are in line with what can be heard in the media, but are in contradiction with the way most Americans/Europeans really feel about immigration.




My on topic comment:  
On 1 side of my family I am both 2nd & 4th generation American - the family moved to & from Normandy to French Canada to the US in the past 150 years. My grandfather was a native French speaker, his children learned French at home &  at school as a 2nd language & all the grandchildren learned some french when we visited as children & we all took French in school - it was required of us.  Only a few are fluent but we have decent accents as we learned first from a native speaker & we can all read a newspaper in French - if you couldn't read & discuss a newspaper story with him, you didn't get dinner.  He considerd it his responsibilty to pass on language & culture, not the government's.  
On the other side I am 6th gen. American of Irish & Scottish descent.  I wish I spoke any kind of Gailic but I don't, some of my Irish cousins do.  Supposedly my great great grandparents spoke English as well as Gailic but they wanted to assimilate & didn't teach their children Gailic.


I am sorry of this strays from the topic, I feel it is relevant.

Bernik - 
I appreciate & respect your opinions on your country but I do not appreciate your projecting your personal issues onto America. You don't quote statistics, you don't appear to have lived in the US, you don't talk about knowing any Americans personally.  As several forer@s, Americans & others,  have already pointed out, your understanding of the culture & history of America is incomplete & skewed.  Neither Spanish nor English are the indiginous language of North America, but Spanish was spoken here before English was. 

Yes, we have problems with illegal immigration.
Yes, we have racists & xenophobes - like every other place on this planet, do we need to talk about European Football here?
You reference Southern California & Mexican immigrants - are you aware that "California" is a Spanish word?  That more than 1/2 of the names of the 50 states are not English in origin but are Spanish, Native American languages, French, Dutch, etc. 
A conservative estimate is that more than 35% of all place names in the US are not of English origin.
Yes, massive immigration affect the population of America.  *We are a nation of immigrants*, we have had continuous waves of immigration starting the moment a European set foot here.  The largest ethnic immigrant wave & largest ethnic group in America is German, Hispanic/Latin is the 2nd, then Irish, English, African American, Scandanavian, Asian & Pacific, etc.
American is  not a race, not a religon, not a language, it is a country & a committment.

I am not saying you do not have a right to an opinion - that would be un-American & un-civil.
I am saying you are expressing an opinion on facts you have no direct knowledge of and you are promoting assumptions about America based on your feelings on how immigration affects you & your country.
-


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## linguist786

My cousins in London speak awful Gujarati - in a cockney accent!!
Actually, they don't speak Gujarati well at all - everytime we go there, they tell us to speak in English! I think it's a real shame - they struggle to speak to my granddad who only speaks Gujarati!

I think when i have kids, i'll make sure they speak Gujarati (and Urdu too - such a nice polite clean language).


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## panjabigator

Are there any just Urdu speakers in your family (people who only speak urdu and no Guju)?


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## linguist786

panjabigator said:
			
		

> Are there any just Urdu speakers in your family (people who only speak urdu and no Guju)?


no. why d'you ask? 
That actually wouldn't be so bad. If say, for example, I was forced to teach my children only one language for some weird reason (out of Gujarati and Urdu) I'd pick Urdu. I'd rather them be fluent in Urdu _then_ pick up Gujarati (which wouldn't be so hard)


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## panjabigator

I assumed that maybe your cousins didnt Guju because there Urdu was better. I on the other hand would only teach Punjabi to my kids, as they would pick up Hindi and Urdu through movies.  (the other way around doesnt work with Punjabis.....if they only learn Hindi or Urdu, they usually turn their back on Punjabi...in my experience(and out of all the friends that I know)).


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## tafanari

How related are Hindi, Urdu, and Punjabi? Can foregoing Urdu for Punjabi or vice-versa be considered like foregoing English for Spanish or more like foregoing Southern American English for a Northern "accent" ?


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## panjabigator

Its a very complicated subject, hehe.  I start with Hindi and Urdu.  Essentially, Hindi and Urdu are the same language.  There are two big differences though.  Hindi uses the Sanskrit script (aka Devanagri) which is also used by Nepali, Marathi, and some of the Hindi dialects (or languages depending on opinions).  Urdu, on the other hand, uses the Perso-Arabic script (specifically, the script used is called Nastiliq, which differs from the Persian and Arabic script, nasq--  Nastiliq is written more at an angle, has some more letters, and is more cursive looking).  In regards to vocabulary, the languages really are the same on the colloquial level, aside from some pronounciation differences.  But the upper vocabulary for Hindi is more Sanskritic, whereas the the Urdu vocab would be Persianized.  This becomes problematic, for example, when someone is watching the news in the other language.  I can understand the Hindi news 85% and the Urdu news like 35%.  The vocab is tough for me!   But most people can communicate with each other perfectly fine, and sometimes they dont even realize you are speaking another language...I have heard so many times that I speak good Urdu when Im actually speaking Hindi...but the labels are all political.  I like to call what I speak Hindustani, which is neither here nor there but in between.  But I can do both Hindi and Urdu, but my Hindi is much better do to exposure.

Punjabi is a related language to Hindi, as is Gujarati, Bengali, Marathi, Asamese, Oriya, Rajasthani (I use Rajasthani loosely to label the dialects from this region), and Sindhi.  These are the _main_ North Indian languages, and each of these languages has their own local region/state where they are spoken.  Punjabi is a different language, with its own script, but it is similar to Hindi and Urdu, and many people can understand it fine.  But for some reason, post 1947, there have been many Punjabi's who have abandoned the language because they favor Hindi and Urdu.  Why they did this only God knows, and I would consider it like forgoing Spanish for English in the United States.  As for the accent part, I would agree with that also because many consider the Punjabi language to be rustic and crude, where as Urdu is percieved to be more scholarly and erudite.  While I agree that Punjabi can be harsh sounding, so can any language when spoken in an improper fashion.  I personally feel that the parents should maintain their first language with the children...Punjabi children will learn Hindi through schools and exposure to films.  That is a fact...I dont know many Punjabi's outside of India who arent comfortable with Hindi (well I know some).  But all the Punjabi's I know who dont speak Punjabi wish they could but cannot. I hope I answered your question.


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## panjabigator

You can read this article to find out more on the language divide in Punjab.


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## LaReinita

I know this is an old thread, but I would like to add something.  I believe that many immigrants didn't teach their children Spanish, because they were trying so hard to learn English.  They knew their children would become fluent in English and they wanted to be able to communicate in the same language as their children.  

Also, in a completely different way, I've seen Spanish not being passed on.  I have a friend who's mother never taught her Spanish.  Now being a 30 year-old Puerto Rican who can't speak spanish, she's too embarrassed to try to learn it, because she feels she should already know it and is in fear of making mistakes.  She's lets people believe that she can speak it, but that she just won't speak with them.  Then, I have another friend who has 3 children.  She can speak spanish  (I don't think she can read or write it though, and her spanish is not proper spanish, but rather Puerto Rican Slang) and she hasn't taught her children out of pure laziness.  I find it a shame.  Now her children will never be able to pass it on to their children . . so on and so forth . . . .


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## CarolMamkny

Well... I know almost everybody else wrote in English but I rather do it in my first language so.....

Creo que esta cuestión del lenguaje es algo bastante propio de nuestra cultura. A mucha gente, especialmente aquellos que llegan a los E.U con ganas de convertirse en "gente", piensa que el hecho de que hablan español es una inconveniencia en vez de un arma más para salir adelante en este país. Les doy un ejemplo de algo que me ha pasado bastantes veces... Como ya sabemos (por lo menos en NY) la mayoria de las personas que trabajan en los restaurantes de comidas rapidas (BK, McDs etc.) son de habla hispana. Una vez entre a uno de estos restaurantes y sabia que la persona que me atendia hablaba español ( Debo añadir que se llamaba Chavelo) más no quise hablarle en español inmediatamente. Cuando él me habló no le pude entender bien (ya que su inglés no era muy bueno) y le dije, en español, que por favor me hablara en español. Este señor se puso furioso y, en inglés, me dijo que el no hablaba español. Bueno lo deje así y pedí mi orden en inglés. Pocos minutos después le escuche hablando con otro empleado en español....


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## Glitz

I think its a real shame when people dont teach their children their mother tongue. I don't think speaking only English ( that is in an english speaking country) is a good sign of intergration, to intergrate doesn't mean you have to loose all cultural ties. I know plenty of bi lingual kids who can speak both languages just as good as one another. I don't think its fair on the people who miss out on learning both languages, the fact that people are to lazy to teach their children is just irritating. In the end part of their idenity is lost, the parent shouldn't be able to take this away from their child.


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## LaReinita

I agree whole-heartedly Glitz.  Laziness in NO EXCUSE!!! . . Why should your family's culture stop with you??  (not you directly, but to those who don't take the time to teach . .  hahaha, and clearly that wouldn't be anyone in this forum!)


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## little_vegemite

I think that Australia is like america in that it is an 'immigrant country' - especially in the urban areas. In Sydney you'll find that many "1st generation immigrants (children of immigrants)" will speak the language of their parents, and are encouraged to do so. I think it's important that you speak the natural language of your parents - My parents speak spanish but they always deliberately spoke to me in english so I never learnt spanish, though now I'm learning it as if it were a second language (more easily than other people who don't come from a spanish speaking background but still, its not my first or natural language). 
I'm not able to communicate with any of my extended family (they all live in argentina and speak spanish) and my parents used to have a very effective way of being exclusive when speaking about "adult things" - they just spoke in spanish.
Though I don't think parents don't teach their children their language out of laziness! Wouldn't it be easier to speak to your own children in your first language? I think that most parents, immigrant parents, teach their children the predominant language of the country so that their children dont experience exclusion and the 'language barrier' in school or at work.


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## Glitz

Though I think most of the time it is laziness or even more so the fact that people move to more westernised places and they want to get rid of any previous ethnic ties i.e. go to America and live the American dream.
I don' think there are any language barriers presented by speaking in both languages, children learn which to talk to whom in. Its only when the parent can't speak the language of the country that they are living in and only speak to their child in their mother tongue. That it can become difficult for the child as an infant only knowing their parents language, to intergrate and learn the host countries language at school etc.
Otherwise if they are equally exposed to both, kids are very capable to handle two or more languages without diffculty. 
I suppose I can sympathise with people who marry someone of a different nationality, having different 1st languages they may choose to speak to their children only in the language of the country they live in. But I don't understand why people who share the same 1st language choose not to teach their children it.


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## Kajjo

Many Turkish immigrants in Germany need to make the same choice as the title question. My observation is that those who speak fluent German and do speak German in their family, too, are well-integrated and have almost equal chances, while those whose family still speaks Turkish are usually not speaking good German, are less integrated and have tremendously less chances in life and career. I believe it is important to accept your host countries culture and totally immerse in it if you and further generations want to stay in a new country.

Kajjo


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## Glitz

Kajjo said:


> Many Turkish immigrants in Germany need to make the same choice as the title question. My observation is that those who speak fluent German and do speak German in their family, too, are well-integrated and have almost equal chances, while those whose family still speaks Turkish are usually not speaking good German, are less integrated and have tremendously less chances in life and career. I believe it is important to accept your host countries culture and totally immerse in it if you and further generations want to stay in a new country.
> 
> Kajjo


 
I understand what your saying, but this forum alone proves that people can speak one language just as good as they can speak many others and in no way does speaking another language hold them back, but rather its an extra bonus.
Its true people should try and intergrate if they are going to live in another country. They should abide by its rules, and be open minded towards different customs etc, otherwise there would be no point in it and they might aswell have stayed in their own country. 
Though the thing is people can only change so to immerse themselves to a certain extent. A black person is never going to fit into a crowd of white people and an white person is never going to fit into a crowd of asian people. Its better if we accept both cultures without having to loose our own for the sake of not being different, becuase in the end everyone is indivdual and your nationality is just as important as your ethnicity.


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## Athaulf

Glitz said:


> I don't think its fair on the people who miss out on learning both languages, the fact that people are to lazy to teach their children is just irritating. In the end part of their idenity is lost, the parent shouldn't be able to take this away from their child.



I've seen quite a few immigrant families here in Canada, and in most cases, the parents are enthusiastic about teaching kids their native language alongside English, while the kids are the ones who are lazy, constantly rebelling against their parents' attempts to teach them what they perceive as an unnecessary extra language. Kids do have amazing language-learning abilities, but it's wrong to think that this task is trivial or effortless for them. They will invariably learn the language of their peers in school and on the playground, but they will learn other languages only if absolutely forced to do so.


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## Glitz

It is effortless for kids to learn languages. If the parent speaks to them in  both languages they just learn naturally. Yes I know kids can be reluctant to speak in a second language especially around friends, but this doesn't stop them from understanding it. There are loads of children who are spoken to in another langauge but reply back in English.
   Maybe as a child having to reply back in another language is a bit of a novelty, but as people get older confidence grows and they have the oppertunity to speak it and appreciate this ability.
    Talking to my friends about it, they all say to would have loved to have had the chance to be brought up bilingual.


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## Athaulf

Glitz said:


> It is effortless for kids to learn languages. If the parent speaks to them in  both languages they just learn naturally. Yes I know kids can be reluctant to speak in a second language especially around friends, but this doesn't stop them from understanding it.



Not according to the experiences of the people I know. As soon as kids figure out that they can communicate with their parents using the same language that they speak with their peers, they normally won't bother with the parents' native language any more. If the parents try to force them to learn it, they will often resent such attempts and actively rebel against it.  

I know a bunch of people who grew up in Croatian immigrant households here in Canada, and those who speak Croatian well are good at it only because they really had no choice but to speak it at some point. In fact, all of them who actually speak it like true native speakers were spending a lot of time in Croatia as kids (e.g. by going there on long holidays each year, or by moving back and forth several times). 

As far as I know, my impressions are consistent with the research done on the subject. 



> Talking to my friends about it, they all say to would have loved to have had the chance to be brought up bilingual.


I'm sure that's what they think now as adults, but it's very different when you try explaining to actual kids that when they grow up, they'll be sorry for having wasted all that time instead of learning something cool or useful.


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## Glitz

They may not be able to speak well, but they can understand what is being said. Take for instance a Russian lady I know, shes married to an English guy and he talks to their kids in English but she speaks to them in Russian. 
Though she constantly speaks to them in Russian they always tend to reply back in English, they understand what shes saying very easily and as they get older they'll be able if they want, to become confident speakers.
My little brother is exactly like the type of kid you described, hes really reluctant to speak in Croatian,infact he hates it. Though he can still understand what is being said and replies back in English(he can barely put a sentence of croatian together!). As long as theres still someone around speaking to him in Croatian as he grows up, understanding will be a quality he wont be able to lose


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## biankita

Glitz, it's pretty much the same here in the Philippines. 

I have many relatives coming home from other countries (most of them from the United States). Most of my cousins who are born and raised in the country can understand the Filipino language but most of them are reluctant to speak it, especially when we try to engage them in conversations. Most of my aunts and uncles mention that it's because they're embarrassed to make a mistake considering their other cousins based in the Philippines happen to be very fluent.

When it comes to language change, in the Philippines, English education is given more importance than the native language. Unfortunately for me, I have very poor Filipino language skills. I can speak it conversationally (since I am born and raised here), but quite frankly, I have great difficulty reading and writing with it. It's kinda sad.


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## Glitz

biankita said:


> Glitz, it's pretty much the same here in the Philippines.
> 
> I have many relatives coming home from other countries (most of them from the United States). Most of my cousins who are born and raised in the country can understand the Filipino language but most of them are reluctant to speak it, especially when we try to engage them in conversations. Most of my aunts and uncles mention that it's because they're embarrassed to make a mistake considering their other cousins based in the Philippines happen to be very fluent.
> 
> When it comes to language change, in the Philippines, English education is given more importance than the native language. Unfortunately for me, I have very poor Filipino language skills. I can speak it conversationally (since I am born and raised here), but quite frankly, I have great difficulty reading and writing with it. It's kinda sad.


 

Really, WOW! I never knew schooling was like that in the Philippines it seems strange to think a native of the country wouldn't be able to speak the language to its full ablility. But I guess English is more international, so they choose to put it first.


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## panjabigator

Glitz said:


> Really, WOW! I never knew schooling was like that in the Philippines it seems strange to think a native of the country wouldn't be able to speak the language to its full ablility. But I guess English is more international, so they choose to put it first.



English is VERY important in India.  There are families in Delhi that only speak English.  I stayed with a Panjabi Sikh family, who used Panjabi with me, Hindi with each other, and English with their children.  It was very odd.  The kids also used English with each other.  They all expressed a preference for English and a distaste in Hindi.  Especially reading and writing.  

I remember now my father discouraging me from learning how to read and write Hindi.  He thought it would be too hard!  (little did they know I'd wind up wanting to make a career out of it!)


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## biankita

Glitz said:


> Really, WOW! I never knew schooling was like that in the Philippines it seems strange to think a native of the country wouldn't be able to speak the language to its full ablility. But I guess English is more international, so they choose to put it first.


 
Ahahaha... it's me. I got private school education where the medium of instruction was English. Public school education doesn't have the same quality of language in English. Though most would understand and will be able to speak it.

But people here are Filipinizing some English words until they become acceptable "Taglish" words. Some of them are ok -- I end up using them myself, but some borderline to the annoying. I'm not sure if other countries do this too.


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## jonquiliser

Kajjo said:


> Many Turkish immigrants in Germany need to make the same choice as the title question. My observation is that those who speak fluent German and do speak German in their family, too, are well-integrated and have almost equal chances, while those whose family still speaks Turkish are usually not speaking good German, are less integrated and have tremendously less chances in life and career. I believe it is important to accept your host countries culture and totally immerse in it if you and further generations want to stay in a new country.
> 
> Kajjo



I think this wanders out into deep, murky waters. What is it to be integrated into the German society? I surely couldn't speak of _the_ Finnish culture for immigrants to be 'integrated into'. I think it's illusory to speak in terms of a uniform "us" - and this is independent of the fact that 'we' may share a language (though I know very few truly monolingual countries). 

So not only do I not believe the choice is necessary (the choice of abandoning or not one of your languages), I think it's a very much of pity if people really feel it's "wiser" or "more enriching" to speak only one language. Obviously, it's not that "survival of a language" should be a goal in itself, but to the extent that a language is someone's language(s), in a way it's also part of who that person is (or at least that's how I feel about it, and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one). So to lose that merely because of a belief that this or that language is what means "all the future" and the opportunities... well, it just seems a very sad form of life... There are things other than prospective careers.


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## vince

Athaulf said:


> I've seen quite a few immigrant families here in Canada, and in most cases, the parents are enthusiastic about teaching kids their native language alongside English, while the kids are the ones who are lazy, constantly rebelling against their parents' attempts to teach them what they perceive as an unnecessary extra language. Kids do have amazing language-learning abilities, but it's wrong to think that this task is trivial or effortless for them. They will invariably learn the language of their peers in school and on the playground, but they will learn other languages only if absolutely forced to do so.



My experience is that Canadian-born kids of immigrants generally come around when they're around 16 - 18, when they start to search for their identity and realize that they're actually (for example) Croatian and only Canadian by birth and citizenship papers, and hence start to "return to their roots" by learning Croatian and getting to know more Croatian people.


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## Athaulf

vince said:


> My experience is that Canadian-born kids of immigrants generally come around when they're around 16 - 18, when they start to search for their identity and realize that they're actually (for example) Croatian and only Canadian by birth and citizenship papers, and hence start to "return to their roots" by learning Croatian and getting to know more Croatian people.



That's true -- but by then, they are no longer kids for all linguistic purposes. Around the age of 16-18, it's already way too late to learn to sound like a native speaker, and in most cases, it's also too late to be able to dedicate enough time and effort to learn the language decently. At the end of the day, the only ones speaking their parents' native language really well are those who were unconditionally forced to speak it before the age of 12 or so.


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## vince

Hmm I was assuming that their parents speak the language. If so, they probably know how to pronounce the sounds and recognize the basic everyday vocabulary around the house, even if that's the limit of what they know. They would still have a large advantage over people who have had zero exposure to the language, and if they end up going "back" to Croatia they might be able to pass themselves off as natives after a year or two.


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## little_vegemite

To Vince: I'm in the 16-18 year old range and had exactly that reaction of wanting to learn spanish (which is the native language of my parents) and I can tell you that yes I can understand it easily, and yes I guess I learn it much quicker than people who don't have a spanish-speaking background, BUT, my accent is just as bad as any other english speaker, and I would never be able to "pass myself off" as a native. And it is odd because I've heard it my whole life, but the way I pronounce words is that of an english speaker.


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## viera

Growing up in Toronto in a Slovak immigrant family, we the children were 'forced' to speak only Slovak with our parents. It would have been easier and more comfortable to respond in English, as did most of our Slovak immigrant peers. They ended up understanding the language but unable to speak it, presumably because of lack of practice in producing the language.

At the time I was uncomfortable about having immigrant parents who spoke broken English - I just wanted to be like everybody else, with anglophone parents. But today I am grateful for their laying down the law and letting us grow up bilingual. This made learning further languages a lot easier, starting with French at age 11 in a bilingual school. It is also wonderful to be able to communicate directly with all our relatives in Slovakia, whom we were able to visit and discover only as adults.

Of course we had no problem picking up English on the playground and at school and 'integrating' into the ocean of English we were surrounded by.


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## Glitz

Its seems to me that In Canada people are much more open to bringing up their kids bilingual but alot less so in America, why is that?


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## Athaulf

Glitz said:


> Its seems to me that In Canada people are much more open to bringing up their kids bilingual but alot less so in America, why is that?



That's a quite complex question that surpasses the scope of this thread. In short, the Canadian government officially encourages immigrants to preserve their language and some other aspects of their home culture (this also includes giving financial support to such efforts). People also tend to look favorably on being able to idenfity one's ancestry and ethnic roots. On the other hand, in the U.S., the government is largely indifferent towards the issues of immigrants' language, and people tend to look on any sort of ethnic particularism very unfavorably, expecting the immigrants to fully embrace the Americal identity. This is of course an oversimplified picture, but the broad trends in both culture and politics of those countries are definitely along these lines.


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## viera

Athaulf said:


> That's a quite complex question that surpasses the scope of this thread. In short, the Canadian government officially encourages immigrants to preserve their language and some other aspects of their home culture (this also includes giving financial support to such efforts). People also tend to look favorably on being able to idenfity one's ancestry and ethnic roots.......


I'm afraid this was definitely not the attitude to foreigners at the time I was growing up in the 50's and the 60's and has become the norm only in recent decades. The derogatory term *DP's* (displaced persons) was commonly heard and contributed to making me feel inferior for much of my childhood.

Nevertheless the pressure to conform was probably not as strong as in the USA, since there was no reference to 'the American way of life' or 'the American dream'. Indeed at the time there was much soul-searching in the media about the Canadian identity, whether it actually existed and whether we were any different from our southern neighbors.


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## Sepia

Glitz said:


> Its seems to me that In Canada people are much more open to bringing up their kids bilingual but alot less so in America, why is that?



A logical reason would be that there are a lot more first generation immigrants, it is a bilingual country, and these two factors simply must result in a greater number of bilingual marriages.


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## elizabeth_b

nichec said:


> My response is to the first question being asked. A few years ago, there was a hugh immigration wave in Taiwan because of our problem with China. Many parents took their very young babies to USA or even had them born here. We call these kids who have 100% Taiwanese blood but can't speak a word in Chinese, not to mention Taiwanese, "ABC", which means "Americans Born as Chinese". I myself have some relatives and friends like that, they look Taiwanese, but that's about the only bit of Taiwanese you can get from them because they don't understand the language, the society, the culture, and everything that's related to Taiwan...The first time one of my godbrother went back to Taiwan, he was already 20 years old! And that's the first time he saw his "hometown" He married, of course, an American, and has a job and a house and a car in America, I don't think Taiwan means anything to him in the end of the day....
> 
> Here in Mexico we have a important chinese comunity. My grandfather was chinese and came here because of the problems in China. He never taught the language to his children, he just taught them a few things like how to distinguish chinese art from japanese art and how to prepare chinese food. It's a pity because we lost the language and also de caligraphy which he mastered. But the same happened with other members of the community and as far as I can see it's not only here in México Amy Tan explains very well this phenomenon in her book "The Joy Luck Club", how there's a communication problem between the elder generation and the new one that's born outside from China. Maybe it happens also with other cultures when people inmigrate to other countries.
> 
> Regards
> Elizabeth B


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## brau

Residente Calle 13 said:


> Thanks to all for the answers.
> 
> I have another question for the people from Spain. Do you have the same problem with Basque, Catalán or Gallego in Spain? Do kids feel embarrassed to be caught speaking their regional languages?
> 
> I have another question for our friends for Spain but I think it might be off-topic. I *could *start another thread and if the mods think it's the same issue, I think they can just merge them. Is that ok, mods?
> 
> [psst...it's about code-switching]



I can tell you about the situation of valencian catalan in the present Valencian Community. 

I was born in a town of 7,000 people down south of te province of Valencia, and I speak and have always spoken only Valencian at home. In my town everybody does, nobody speaks Spanish unless we're speaking with some stranger who doesn't understand Valencian. And parents keep speaking their children in Valencian. In the city of Valencia, and in bigger cities all around the area, the case has not been the same. In Valencia almost everybody speaks Spanish today, except in some neighbourhoods. Although today Valencian is no longer seen as a second-class language and it is an official language taught in schools, throughout the centuries the parents kept speaking their children in Spanish and encouraging them to forget about Valencian, and that's why hardly everyone today speaks Valencian in Valencia. As I said, younger generations study Valencian at school now and have discovered how it is a perfectly rightful tongue, and its prestige has been restored almost completely. Some young people who are not native Valencian speakers are even forcing themselves to speak Valencian, especially when they are addressed in Valencian but some of them even address people in Valencian when they are in a Valencian speaking town. Not many of them, but still more than 30 years ago. 

I hope it helps, sorry for my English.


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## MarX

Residente Calle 13 said:


> Hi,
> 
> My parents speak Spanish and I speak Spanish but my nephews don't and won't. I have two nieces who do and will but they live in a town where most people speak Spanish. Where my nephews live, most people speak English.
> 
> Spanish-speakers in the US are, by in large, passing down their language to the next generation in many cases but in many families, it's disappearing. I have mant Hispanic friends who speak very little Spanish and some who speak none.
> 
> In a sense, it's a shame they will never speak the language of the forefathers but in another sense, they are assimilating to the culture of their country and are 'fitting in.'
> 
> Have you witnessed language loss? Do you not speak the language of your parents or do you know anybody who's in the situation my nephews are in? Do you live in region where another language was traditionally spoken but is now being replaced by a national language?


To asnwer the original question:

I witness my cousins having German as first language and not very fluent in Indonesian even though the parents speak Indonesian.

Most of the times this language change just happens. It's not that the children don't want to speak their parents' language or are ashamed of it.
They simply grew up in an environment that encourages them to speak another language.

Most of the times it is nothing to resent. It's just natural.

Salam


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## ColdomadeusX

I think my siblings and I are an example of language loss. It's not that we didn't try to learn the languages of our parent's;it's just that we were raised pretty much completely in English from birth. So I think that the problem for me and other people I know is that our parents and grandparents are partly to blame for bringing us up in English.


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## MarX

ColdomadeusX said:


> I think my siblings and I are an example of language loss. It's not that we didn't try to learn the languages of our parent's;it's just that we were raised pretty much completely in English from birth. So I think that the problem for me and other people I know is that our parents and grandparents are partly to blame for bringing us up in English.


I know some Indonesians or "Half"-Indonesians (Sorry for the term. I didn't find another word.) who are actually mad at their parent(s) for not teaching them Indonesian while they were younger.


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## Etcetera

Residente Calle 13 said:


> Have you witnessed language loss? Do you not speak the language of your parents or do you know anybody who's in the situation my nephews are in?


Hola.

I suppose I may well serve as an example of a person deliberately choosing not to speak their parent's language. My father was born in Ukraine and moved to Russia when he was about 18. Ukraine was (and still is) a country where Russian is spoken even more widely than Ukrainian -and my father was actually learning Ukrainian at school, because in the family the primary language was Russian. So my father didn't have any language problems when he began his studies at Military Medical Academy in Leningrad. 
He then married a Russian girl (my future Mum), who spoke absolutely no Ukrainian, so Russian became naturally the language of the family. I didn't learn Ukrainian when I was a kid - just because there was no need for me to do so. I visited Ukraine several times, but in that country, you can always do with Russian. And I don't really feel like learning Ukrainian now, as it's hardly unlikely that I'll ever go to the country for more than several days. 
To my understanding, it's not a unique situation.


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## CrisMcCartney

I think its absurd trying to hide their roots are Spanish by not speaking that language when their surnames are Aguilar or Sanchez, for example


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## MarX

CrisMcCartney said:


> I think its absurd trying to hide their roots are Spanish by not speaking that language when their surnames are Aguilar or Sanchez, for example


I think most of the people who experience language change are not trying to hide their roots. It's just that their environment doesn't really encourage them to learn the language of their parents.

My cousins are not ashamed at all of their Indonesian roots, but fact is, they grew up speaking German, not because they hated Indonesian or were ashamed of it. Their friends in school simply spoke German. It's natural that they picked it up and ended up being more comfortable using it. Like I said, it's often something that naturally happens. It is sad that they don't speak their parent's language fluently, but blaming the kids is pretty unfair, don't you think? None of us really chose where we were born and where we grew up.


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## jinti

CrisMcCartney said:


> I think its absurd trying to hide their roots are Spanish by not speaking that language when their surnames are Aguilar or Sanchez, for example


Please, a name does not automatically impart knowledge of a language. 

I have an Irish first name, an Hispanic surname (married name), and a maiden name that everyone thinks is Polish but was actually made up by an Italian grandfather one night while drunk.  I also have at least 5 nationalities (that I know of) in my family background.  You don't really think I'm speaking English to try to hide my roots, do you?


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## CrisMcCartney

jinti said:


> Please, a name does not automatically impart knowledge of a language.
> 
> I have an Irish first name, an Hispanic surname (married name), and a maiden name that everyone thinks is Polish but was actually made up by an Italian grandfather one night while drunk. I also have at least 5 nationalities (that I know of) in my family background. You don't really think I'm speaking English to try to hide my roots, do you?


 
In your case, no, but there are people that do it because speaking Spanish in USA, for example, is generally considered as you were of second-class
If one of their parents speaks Spanish, I think they should learn it, but most of them don't do it because they're ashamed of being what they are
I don't mean everybody does it for that reason


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## MarX

I witnessed how my cousin who grew up speaking Javanese in Surabaya switched to Indonesian after moving to Jakarta. First he still had some accent, but today he speaks just like everybody else in Jakarta.

The young people in Surabaya also start to use more Indonesian and less Javanese. A process which has been going on for decades now.


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## cipotarebelde

I think refusing or not wanting to learn or speak a language can be an issue of shame, but not always. It is an issue of identity for lots of kids though. My daughter did not want to speak English here in El Salvador. I can't know why that was true in the first years, though I suspect it was because everyone knew Spanish and not everyone knew English. But, later she expressed, repeatedly that she did not want to be a gringa and if she didn't speak English then, in her 4-year-old logic she was NOT a gringa.

Even though English is taught here and some think it both useful and interesting to learn (government school required too), for my children up to a certain age, English made them different and they chose to define their identity with their peers not parents on the language front.


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## VivaReggaeton88

My grandparents both spoke Italian, but since they raised their kids in New York their kids did not learn it. This also may be because the dialects were so different that they didn't even want to bother (My grandpa is from Northeastern Sicily where they speak Sicilianu and my grandma is from Northeastern Mainland Italy where the dialect (Bariez) has many greek/mediterranean words). They didn't understand each other that well .


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## maran

Hola!

I was born in Spain not long ago but the necessary to live the huge emigration movement that has been happening thourgh the last five years and I have realised that some South Americans are losing their accent on purpose in order to "fit in" as (it is very sad to say it) they are seen as less as the Spanish are. What I want to say with this is that speking the SAME language we are doing an enormous difference.

Also I would like to explain the Basque, Catalonian, Galician and Valencian issue which in my point of view is not being explained all right. Those languages are oficial with Spanish in the regions that are spoken which if I'm not mistaken are Galicia, Cataluña, País Vasco, Valencia and Baleares. 
As they are oficial they are taught in schools which is creating a big educational problem here because they do not only have a subjet called Basque for example, they have in some schools all the subjects in Basque except Spanish, English or another language subject.

This means that when they finish secondary school (just before college) they will speak fluently Basque, Catalonian, Galician or Valencian but not Spanish and what I think is worse, the rest of Spaniards cannot go to college or university there because classes are given on those regional languages.

I think that the solution would be having 50% of Spanish and 50% of the other language in obligatory shool and forget about it in university or college in order to allow everyone study wherever they want.

Sorry about possible mistakes, haven't used my English in a long time.


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## MarX

maran said:


> some South Americans are losing their accent on purpose in order to "fit in" as (it is very sad to say it) they are seen as less as the Spanish are. What I want to say with this is that speking the SAME language we are doing an enormous difference.


 
I'm not sure if fitting in is the main reason here.
Of course it plays a big part, but often the process of changing the way you speak to adjust to your environment is quite natural. Many people change their accent quite unconsciously.

Grüsse,


MarX


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## Tiovito

> Basque, Catalonian, Galician and Valencian [...] Those languages [...].


 
Catalan and Valencian are considered by scholars the same language, which receive different name according to the territory.



> Galicia, Cataluña, País Vasco, Valencia and Baleares.


Some (at least) of these names have English translation: Catalonia, Basque country, Valencian community and Balearic islands would be fine.



> This means that when they finish secondary school (just before college) they will speak fluently Basque, Catalonian, Galician or Valencian but not Spanish


 
This is untrue: the linguistic reality in our bilingual territories is that the prominence of Spanish language is overwhelming (in massa media, in books, in our cities ...). Every Catalan speaker can manage in Spanish. The opposite is not always like that.



> the rest of Spaniards cannot go to college or university there because classes are given on those regional languages


 
Of course they can! In fact, thousands of non-Catalan speakers go to our colleges and universities every year: they just have to adquire enough command of the language. Even the rest of Spaniards do it.



> forget about it in university or college


 
We won't do it. As any other "normal" community of speakers, we use our language at all levels.

And regarding the question of the post, I have met some people whose parents talked in Catalan between them, but swtiched to Spanish when talking to their children. That's how the language is being substituted in some areas. It happened specially in the area around Perpignan (regarding French, of course!), so only grandparents speak actively, and grandchildren can hardly understand.


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## IxOhOxI

Well, I think it depends on how the child is raised. Anyway, I've known lots of people who moved and settled in another countries and I've noticed that some of the parents teach their child his/her mother tongue in attempt to make the child speak both of the mother language and the language of the country they live in. Btw, the child needs to be taught at the very young age because mostly, when they grow up to teenagers, some aren't fond of learning it anymore because they think in the future, they don't have to speak it anyway so they won't and that is not right. I think it will only make the distance between the child and the elder relatives such as the grandparents, aunt, uncle, and so forth. It is quite comprehensible that one comes from his/her country and then moves to another must adapt himself/herself to that culture and everything concerns with that country he/she moves to. Anyway, I think it's best for the children and everyone in the family if the children are taught by their parents when they are young, so that there won't be any trouble with communication. Btw, it is true, Spanish is widely used in the U.S. today and in your case I think it would be easier for your nieces and nephews to study Spanish because I learned that there are Spanish classes in the U.S. schools. 

If you don't want them to forget or not to know about their own culture and Spanish, then you need to tell them about the stuff they need to know but it doesn't mean it's a must. 

Well, that's all I know from one who experienced it.


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## zedkomies

Growing up in the eastern united states in the mid-80s and 90s, my family experienced discrimination because we came from a latin american background. My Dad had this policy of '*QSE!*' whenever we were out in public, which stood for Quietly speak English. He would say this when my siblings and I were speaking in our broken spanish with my mom. The results of this policy are mixed. I became a fluent/accentless native speaker of American English, which helps you throughout the world, but I lost my own Castilian that originated in latin america. So now I am trying to learn the language in addition to Swedish and Finnish. Nowadays in the 2000s, because Spanish is so widespread throughout the US, attitudes are changing. 

In regard to Finnish culture, I believe that if a foreigner in Finland learns Finnish fluently, they are considered much less foreign. They are part of the kansakunta, the nation. You are in or out of the boat, and in Finland to get on and stay on you have to master the language.

As we move further into the 21st century, I think that most people will come to realize that language loss or change is not really possible anymore. Multilingualism is now a common phenomena. The immigrant family from Italy that settled in Chicago in the 19th century never went back. Today a biracial couple from Chicago who are sick and tired of the racism in their city that move to Milano can expect to go back several times a year if they so choose.


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## Tiovito

zedkomies said:


> As we move further into the 21st century, I think that most people will come to realize that language loss or change is not really possible anymore. Multilingualism is now a common phenomena..


 
Only if you consider that your language is as good as any other else's. If your state considers it as "second quality", a "patois", and the speakers fall in this self-contempt, then the substitution occurs. Occitan was spoken by millions of people, just few decades ago, and now it is almost dead. You can hardly hear Catalan spoken at the French side.


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## Soa-al-Suad

I'm a witness of a language loss, as m y mother speak spanish and french. A big part of my family speak spanish flutenly and me - and my brother! - speak english better than spanish!
The reason is quite simple, my mother never speak to me in spanish when I was a kid. She only speaks spanish with my grand mother, and sometimes with my entire family, but only when my grand mother is here. 
So, I understand very well spanish (even better than english) - i can watch films an read books in spanish, but I have a lot of difficulties to write and speak in spanish. Now I'm able to understand what a shame it is, I ask my mother to speak with me only in spanish, and I try to go to Spain more often, but that's quite hard, my grammar is HORRIBLE. 
I hope that I'll be able to learn spanish or english to my children...


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## mirx

CrisMcCartney said:


> I think its absurd trying to hide their roots are Spanish by not speaking that language when their surnames are Aguilar or Sanchez, for example


 
Tell that to Christina...


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## dihydrogen monoxide

A family has kids, I'll use Serbo-Croate for this example, so a family speaks Serbo-Croate and has kids that speak the same language. One kid is 6 years old and the other is 3. No matter the age, the one's younger and the one's older. The family, let's say, moves to London and after some time the 6 year old kid speaks Serbo-Croate as good as English, while the 3 year old kid speaks English well but his native language is not as good, it's like a mix between the Serbo-Croate and English. Why are younger people who move to another country more likely not to speak their native language as well as older people? I hope you know what I'm asking.


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## Athaulf

dihydrogen monoxide said:


> A family has kids, I'll use Serbo-Croate for this example, so a family speaks Serbo-Croate and has kids that speak the same language. One kid is 6 years old and the other is 3. No matter the age, the one's younger and the one's older. The family, let's say, moves to London and after some time the 6 year old kid speaks Serbo-Croate as good as English, while the 3 year old kid speaks English well but his native language is not as good, it's like a mix between the Serbo-Croate and English. Why are younger people who move to another country more likely not to speak their native language as well as older people? I hope you know what I'm asking.



The answer is simple: if kids grow up in an environment where there is a difference between the language spoken by the parents at home and the language spoken by their peers at school and on the playground, they will always pick the latter fully and become real native speakers in it, and they will learn their parents' language only to the extent that they find it absolutely necessary. Thus, children of first-generation immigrants in English-speaking countries normally become native English speakers, and learn their parents' language just barely enough to get by at home. If they figure out early enough that the parents understand English, they may well switch to English even at home and learn to understand their language only passively, sometimes even stubbornly defying their parents' attempts to raise them bilingual. Only if one or both parents don't understand English (or successfully pretend that they don't), the kids will be forced to learn to use their language actively at a decent level (but even then, their knowledge will be limited to what they need to express at home).

The only exceptions are kids who grow up in heavily segregated ethnic neighborhoods, where they have little active exposure to English even among their peers, and kids who spend lots of time moving back and forth between countries, so that they are constantly placed in do-or-die situations requiring active use of two or more different languages. I suppose it might also help if kids are spending time in places where they are artificially required to practice their parents' language, e.g. by sending them to Sunday school in that language, but from what I've seen, even in such situations, the kids will speak English among each other whenever they can, so the results will be inferior compared to what happens when they are spending time among monolingual peers. 

As for your concrete example, you didn't write if both these kids were born in England and at what age they moved there if they weren't. Either way, it can be safely predicted that even the six year old will soon speak far better English than Serbo-Croatian, since as kids grow older, they tend to socialize more with their peers and less with their parents.


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## dihydrogen monoxide

They were born in Bosnia.


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## gillyfr

From personal experience, I think that language is an essential part of one's identity. I am mixed race, English/Chinese, and my mother never spoke Chinese to us. My parents did not want us to be considered outsiders. However, I feel they were naive as we have been treated so all of our lives.

I am married to a Frenchman and speak French to him, but we now live in Quebec where the French is different. We have a daughter who was born in China.

I have always spoken English to her, and when she was starting to refuse to speak English (when we lived in France and most of her environment was French), I just pretended not to understand her. Children use language to communicate and get what they want. If they don't get it in one language but do in another, they will use that language.

Now, my daughter has lived half her life in Quebec. She quickly began speaking in the québécois manner. At home, we ask her to speak more in the French manner, because much of what she learns in the playground is incorrect (due to the abysmal level of education in Quebec for many years, and to the fact that we live in an 'underprivileged' area).

My daughter and I are also learning Chinese. It requires a lot of effort on my part to get her to do her homework, to try and keep ahead of her so I can talk with her, to find opportunities for her to be in a Chinese-speaking environment (she's been attending a Chinese camp all summer), but it is worth it. She knows she is Chinese and she attaches importance to learning the language. Her identity is developing. Thankfully she has not yet come across any pitying or reproving reactions to her lack of fluency, which was my case. If anything she is congratulated on doing so well and making so much effort.

When she is older, I hope she will be able to firmly identify with all the cultural and linguistic elements that make her who she is.


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## Miguel Antonio

lazarus1907 said:


> I am about to make a lot of enemies, but...
> 
> Gallegos speak "Castellano" most of the time, at least in front of people who don´t speak their dialect. I have watched a lot of "Televisión Gallega", and although it is different, it is understandable. It is a cute accent anyway.


Galician is not a dialect, it is a language in its own right, and in the Middle Ages it was more widespread and richer in literature than the fledgling, minority Castilian language that is Spanish today. Galician people do not speak Castilian most of the time, they speak Galician or Castilian, or a mixture of both called "castrapo", depending on the occasion. The fact that the use of Galician was forbidden in official documents by Queen Isabel and King Fernando in the 15th century, in their policy of _doma y castración del Reyno de Galicia_, together with Galician-born dictator Franco's attitude against the use of the language, made it common for people not to use it in front of strangers, this has now changed since the advent of democracy, and the language is well alive and used and healthier than it has been for centuries. Some people still feel ashamed to use it, but they are older, definitely not younger people.


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## alexacohen

> Originally Posted by *lazarus1907*
> Gallegos speak "Castellano" most of the time, at least in front of people who don´t speak their dialect. I have watched a lot of "Televisión Gallega", and although it is different, it is understandable. It is a cute accent anyway.


Galician is not, and has never been a dialect. Unless you want to consider it a dialect of the Latin language, but then you would have to consider Castilian a dialect too. And French, and Romanian, and Portuguese, and Italian...

To speak in the common language in front of people who do not speak your own it's called good manners.


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## Manuel G. Rey

lazarus1907 said:


> I am about to make a lot of enemies, but...
> 
> Gallegos speak "Castellano" most of the time, at least in front of people who don´t speak their dialect. I have watched a lot of "Televisión Gallega", and although it is different, it is understandable. It is a cute accent anyway.
> 
> ¿Basque? Well... I have Basque family, Basque friends, and I have been there. I do not know anyone personally who speaks Basque, so....
> 
> Catalan is another story. They are bilinguals, and they switch to "Castillian" as soon as they realize someone doesn´t speak Catalan, so they don´t have any problem.



Galician and Catalan have exactly the same consideration as romance, romanic or neolatin languages, according to the philologists; the same legal condition of coofficial languages according to the Spanish Constitution; very similar level of use in their respective territories; and very similar degrees of questionable need of 'protection' demanded by the nationalist radical parties, because, happily, they enjoy good health.

Basque is not an romance language, but it is also coofficial in Euskadi (País Vasco). My two grandsons, living in Vitoria, Álava, speak Basque in the school and Castilian at home. A family of Vasque fishermen (arrantzales) from Hondarribia, but living here, in the Mediterranean seashore, speak Basque between them, and Castilian when speaking with their customers, as well as with me. But I don't know the actual level of usein Euskadi.

No Gallego or Catalan will accept that their mother language is a dialect. To say that, would be a 'casus belli'. I supose Basque is also a language, and not a dialect; actually, as far as I know, Basque, like perhaps Finnish or Magyar, have not a clear precedent language.


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## dihydrogen monoxide

Basque is a language with no known relatives but they've tried to link it to Caucasian languages.
What you say about Gallego it was the same with Occitan spoken in France. It was considered language back in the olden days and now it's a dialect. However, Castellano is not a dialect, this is a name for Spanish spoken in Spain. The same thing is with Montenegran, they say they speak a language, but in fact according to philologists, it's a dialect. But when country breaks up, the dialect becomes language. This is off topic, maybe. 
As I gather Catalan is a language and I'll consider it as such.  By the way, does Andorra la Vella have Catalan as its official language or Spanish.


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## Manuel G. Rey

dihydrogen monoxide said:


> Basque is a language with no known relatives but they've tried to link it to Caucasian languages.
> What you say about Gallego it was the same with Occitan spoken in France. It was considered language back in the olden days and now it's a dialect. However, Castellano is not a dialect, this is a name for Spanish spoken in Spain. The same thing is with Montenegran, they say they speak a language, but in fact according to philologists, it's a dialect. But when country breaks up, the dialect becomes language. This is off topic, maybe.
> As I gather Catalan is a language and I'll consider it as such.  By the way, does Andorra la Vella have Catalan as its official language or Spanish.



As far as I know, Andorra has Catalán as the official and most used language between andorranos, but I am not sure about Spanish. 
I have nothing to say about Occitan or Montenegran, and I don't know the philologist opinion on its dialectal condiction.

Gallego is a language, not a dialect. I really do not understand how to give a different consideration to Catalán and Gallego, as appparently you make.

In a recent meeting between high representativs of more than twenty Spanish universities, including Barcelona and Santiago de Compostela, the two main universities from Catalonia and Galicia, as well of the Complutense, the central univesity of Madrid, there was no doubt about Catalán and Gallego being languages.


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## Frank06

Hi,


dihydrogen monoxide said:


> Basque is a language with no known relatives but they've tried to link it to Caucasian languages.


I think by now, "they" have linked Basque to any possibe and impossible language family on this planet (and far beyond), up to Sumerian, 'Atlantian', Martian etc.



> What you say about Gallego it was the same with Occitan spoken in France. It was considered language back in the olden days and now it's a dialect. However, Castellano is not a dialect, this is a name for Spanish spoken in Spain. The same thing is with Montenegran, they say they speak a language, but in fact according to philologists, it's a dialect.


Linguists (and certainly not philologists) aren't interested in the 'dialects versus language' kind of (pseudo-)discussions.


> Linguists are less concerned with whether or not *XYZ* is a language or a dialect (terms that are more important socially and politically than linguistically) than with recognizing the systematic nature of *XYZ*


 


> By the way, does Andorra la Vella have Catalan as its official language or Spanish.


Catalan.

Groetjes,

Frank


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## cirrus

Athaulf said:


> The answer is simple: if kids grow up in an environment where there is a difference between the language spoken by the parents at home and the language spoken by their peers at school and on the playground, they will always pick the latter fully and become real native speakers in it, and they will learn their parents' language only to the extent that they find it absolutely necessary. Thus, children of first-generation immigrants in English-speaking countries normally become native English speakers, and learn their parents' language just barely enough to get by at home.
> 
> Only if one or both parents don't understand English (or successfully pretend that they don't), the kids will be forced to learn to use their language actively at a decent level (but even then, their knowledge will be limited to what they need to express at home)...
> 
> The only exceptions are kids who grow up in heavily segregated ethnic neighborhoods, where they have little active exposure to English even among their peers, and kids who spend lots of time moving back and forth between countries.



I think you have hit the nail bang on the head. I live and work in a massively multi racial area where it is possible to get by in a variety of African and S Asian languages.  What I notice is that these tend not to survive more than one generation. If your parents arrived here in the 60s chances are particularly your mother spoke to you in her home language and you are fluent. However what I notice is that your kids probably won't even though you yourself may be pretty fluent. I have noticed differences even between siblings in the same family. 

For example I worked with a French woman whose first child is bilingual and whose second needs her mother to translate when she talks to her grannie in France.  

I also see people who as adults only retain the very basics - not much more than baby talk in their parents' language. Where their parents (again often the mothers) haven't really got to grips with English, the language divide strikes me as a sad and yawning gulf - as divisive as that between deaf kids brought up in families that don't use sign.


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## Xiroi

dihydrogen monoxide said:


> Castellano is not a dialect, this is a name for Spanish spoken in Spain.


Not at all, castellano and español both mean Spanish, castellano is not the name for the Spanish spoken in Spain. So we have two names for one language.


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## bb008

Residente Calle 13 said:


> Hi,
> 
> My parents speak Spanish and I speak Spanish but my nephews don't and won't. I have two nieces who do and will but they live in a town where most people speak Spanish. Where my nephews live, most people speak English.
> 
> Spanish-speakers in the US are, by in large, passing down their language to the next generation in many cases but in many families, it's disappearing. I have mant Hispanic friends who speak very little Spanish and some who speak none.
> 
> In a sense, it's a shame they will never speak the language of the forefathers but in another sense, they are assimilating to the culture of their country and are 'fitting in.'
> 
> Have you witnessed language loss? Do you not speak the language of your parents or do you know anybody who's in the situation my nephews are in? Do you live in region where another language was traditionally spoken but is now being replaced by a national language?


 


CarolMamkny said:


> Well... I know almost everybody else wrote in English but I rather do it in my first language so.....
> 
> Creo que esta cuestión del lenguaje es algo bastante propio de nuestra cultura. A mucha gente, especialmente aquellos que llegan a los E.U con ganas de convertirse en "gente", piensa que el hecho de que hablan español es una inconveniencia en vez de un arma más para salir adelante en este país. Les doy un ejemplo de algo que me ha pasado bastantes veces... Como ya sabemos (por lo menos en NY) la mayoria de las personas que trabajan en los restaurantes de comidas rapidas (BK, McDs etc.) son de habla hispana. Una vez entre a uno de estos restaurantes y sabia que la persona que me atendia hablaba español ( Debo añadir que se llamaba Chavelo) más no quise hablarle en español inmediatamente. Cuando él me habló no le pude entender bien (ya que su inglés no era muy bueno) y le dije, en español, que por favor me hablara en español. Este señor se puso furioso y, en inglés, me dijo que el no hablaba español. Bueno lo deje así y pedí mi orden en inglés. Pocos minutos después le escuche hablando con otro empleado en español....


 

¿Esto quiere decir que se averguenzan de hablar español?...


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## Xiroi

bb008 said:


> ¿Esto quiere decir que se averguenzan de hablar español?...


Es un hecho bastante conocido que eso pasa en Estados Unidos dentro de ciertos ambientes.


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## cipotarebelde

When I was first learning Spanish in Central America and tried to use it, I HATED it when people talked to me in English because it was "easier". It made me feel stupid about my Spanish, not ashamed of my English. Just a thought.


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## Xiroi

cipotarebelde said:


> When I was first learning Spanish in Central America and tried to use it, I HATED it when people talked to me in English because it was "easier". It made me feel stupid about my Spanish, not ashamed of my English. Just a thought.


That's a different situation, you were not a poor immigrant in a rich country.


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## cipotarebelde

Yes, you're right. But, my husband has been a poor person travelling in the US and he had the same feeling when people responded to him in Spanish when he tried to speak English: that he his English wasn't good enough and that made him feel stupid, not ashamed of his Spanish. I don't that you can't make assumptions about people's feelings in one interchange. The issues of language, employment and immigration in the US are very complex. I often don't know when to speak English or Spanish in certain situations. I have friends who are of latino descent who haven't spoken Spanish in their families for generations who are "ashamed" that they can't respond in Spanish when someone assumes they speak Spanish. I guess I wouldn't be ashamed if someone assumed I spoke Swedish because of my name and physical characterstics, so there are some differences there.  The complexity, the possiblities of ONE persons feelings in a given situation, are what interest me and what I think we need to respect.

Being an immigrant in any country, rich or poor, can be difficult, especially if you come from a country that causes strong negative reactions in people and you yourself have left it for political reasons. True, it isn't the same. But, I have had many, many people shame me and my children for speaking English amongst ourselves. As I posted earlier, my children have all had different issues with their dual language identity. As parents we have worked hard to minimize the feelings of shame, but they still chose to speak only Spanish until English became important for communicating with other people.


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## Athaulf

cipotarebelde said:


> Being an immigrant in any country, rich or poor, can be difficult, especially if you come from a country that causes strong negative reactions in people and you yourself have left it for political reasons. True, it isn't the same. But, I have had many, many people shame me and my children for speaking English amongst ourselves. As I posted earlier, my children have all had different issues with their dual language identity. As parents we have worked hard to minimize the feelings of shame, but they still chose to speak only Spanish until English became important for communicating with other people.



Reading stories like this one, I think that many immigrants would be much happier if they, and other people as well, had a better understanding of the hard scientific facts about language acquisition. In reality, as an immigrant parent, your ability to shape your children's language is much lower than most people think, so most of the feelings of guilt and shame in situations like yours are entirely baseless. 

The only way you can influence your kids' language is by placing them into a group of peers whose first language is English, Spanish, or whatever else you want them to learn. If they go to school and play with English-speaking kids, then they'll grow up as native English speakers, and there's absolutely nothing you can do about it. Even if you absolutely insist on speaking your own language at home, your kids will likely respond to you in English most of the time and acquire only some very basic proficiency in your language, with very poor vocabulary and horrible grammar. If you want them to learn anything beyond that, it's a goal equivalent to making them learn some other foreign language -- which means that if the practical benefits of learning it are low, they'll resist just like they'd normally resist learning other stuff they find boring and pointless. 

All this is true even if you raise your kids monolingual in your own language all until school age -- as soon as they start socializing with English-speaking peers, they'll change their first language amazingly fast. The only way to make them really learn both languages would be to constantly move them between disconnected groups of peers that are _monolingual _in different languages. Not even bilingual groups will do, since they'll all just use English (I don't think I've ever heard children of Croatian parents here in Canada speak in Croatian to each other spontaneously, even those who speak it fairly well). 

So, scientifically speaking, people shaming you for speaking English with your kids are just showing their ignorance. Even if you never uttered a word of English with them, that still wouldn't mean they'd grow up as native Spanish speakers. 

--

By the way, a note to moderators: I think the title of this thread should be changed, since it has nothing to do with language change the way this term is normally used in linguistics.


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## Xiroi

Athaulf said:


> The only way you can influence your kids' language is by placing them into a group of peers whose first language is English, Spanish, or whatever else you want them to learn. If they go to school and play with English-speaking kids, then they'll grow up as native English speakers, and there's absolutely nothing you can do about it. Even if you absolutely insist on speaking your own language at home, your kids will likely respond to you in English most of the time and acquire only some very basic proficiency in your language, with very poor vocabulary and horrible grammar.


I beg to differ, I do know people who was raised abroad and still manage fine with their parent's language or even became fully bilingual. Of course this may be easier in Europe, where it's easier to travel home for holidays, kids get support lessons in their "native" language in schools etc. It has a lot to do with the parents, some will just go on if their kids reply in foreign language, other's will have more patience and not respond to the kid until he says that in the native language. Some parents simply want their kids to speak their language but don't have the time, energy or ability to "counteract" the language around them.


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## Athaulf

Xiroi said:


> I beg to differ, I do know people who was raised abroad and still manage fine with their parent's language or even became fully bilingual. Of course this may be easier in Europe, where it's easier to travel home for holidays, kids get support lessons in their "native" language in schools etc.



I know such people too, but all these people were forced to speak their parents' language actively _with other kids_, one way or another. Some of them constantly moved back and forth between countries, while others spent long vacations in their parents' country every year and had to socialize with monolingual kids there. These are the only ones who could actually pass for native speakers in both languages. People who grew up with one or both parents who don't speak any English will also likely learn their parents' language fairly well, but nowhere near real native level. 

As for language lessons, Sunday school, various clubs and activities in the immigrant community, etc., it all helps, but only marginally. Kids there will all speak exclusively English with each other, and use their heritage language only as much as they're formally required. For them, this experience is not much different from being sent to learn some entirely random foreign language. 

(The sample from which I draw these conclusions is very large, since I know many people from Croatian families here in Canada, and as far as I know, the published research in this area is consistent with my experience.)




> It has a lot to do with the parents, some will just go on if their kids reply in foreign language, other's will have more patience and not respond to the kid until he says that in the native language. Some parents simply want their kids to speak their language but don't have the time, energy or ability to "counteract" the language around them.


Just to avoid misunderstanding, I didn't say that kids won't learn _any_ language from their parents spontaneously. They'll typically learn to understand it well passively, and they'll generally learn enough to get by. They'll even pick a nice native accent, exactly matching that of their parents. However, they'll end up with very poor vocabulary, generally restricted to things that are discussed in the household, and they'll make mistakes with even the most basic grammar. For anything beyond that, they must spend time in a group of peers where their parents' language is dominant.  Also, after they move out, what they know of their heritage language will deteriorate with time unless they practice it. 

Kids will also struggle hard to push English on their parents, and if parents resist too much and don't let them talk back in English, it may lead to a very ugly resentment on part of the kids and a breakdown of communication. Maybe there are exceptional cases where the kids are especially eager to learn their parents' language, but in the overwhelming majority of cases, the influence of parents is by itself far from sufficient to ensure anything close to a real native level of bilingualism.


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## Xiroi

Athaulf said:


> People who grew up with one or both parents who don't speak any English will also likely learn their parents' language fairly well, but nowhere near real native level.


I'm not speaking about Englsh + another language. Maybe English speaking countries don't have the resources you can find in other countries. I was talking about people who would make an effort to speak their native language at home and would not give in even if their kids tend to use the other language, which doesn't have to be English.



Athaulf said:


> As for language lessons, Sunday school, various clubs and activities in the immigrant community, etc., it all helps, but only marginally. Kids there will all speak exclusively English with each other, and use their heritage language only as much as they're formally required. For them, this experience is not much different from being sent to learn some entirely random foreign language.


I beg to differ again, if you're regularly exposed to the language you'll learn a lot more than if you learn a "random foreign language" by taking lessons 6 hours a week.


Athaulf said:


> Just to avoid misunderstanding, I didn't say that kids won't learn _any_ language from their parents spontaneously. They'll typically learn to understand it well passively, and they'll generally learn enough to get by. They'll even pick a nice native accent, exactly matching that of their parents. However, they'll end up with very poor vocabulary, generally restricted to things that are discussed in the household, and they'll make mistakes with even the most basic grammar. For anything beyond that, they must spend time in a group of peers where their parents' language is dominant. Also, after they move out, what they know of their heritage language will deteriorate with time unless they practice it..


That's were native language support comes in, something that is not at all uncommon in many European countries. If a kid reads and write in the language (assuming the kid likes reading) besides his passive knowledge and perfect pronunciation he'll have a decent working command, even if maybe not a native level. This is very unusual in the US, large numbers of the Spanish speakers born there have never read a book in Spanish, they don't write or read in Spanish regularly or ever.



Athaulf said:


> Kids will also struggle hard to push English *the country's language*, on their parents, and if parents resist too much and don't let them talk back in English, it may lead to a very ugly resentment on part of the kids and a breakdown of communication.


That's pushing things a bit too far. Kids don't like vegetables and many of them end up being vegetarians, not traumatised. I mean that's where parents ability comes in, the point is not forcing a stubborn teenager to do what he doesn't want to, it's about the parents having the ability (and time and energy) to make their little kids learn while having fun, so it doesn't feel as if they're imposing something that's boring or unnecessary.

You have a clear view about second generation Croatian speakers in Canada and US, maybe some info about how things are like in Europe would be helpful. I daresay it's not quite the same. Again, I understand it's easier to go back home for Chirstmas if you live in Germany.


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## Athaulf

Xiroi said:


> I'm not speaking about Englsh + another language. Maybe English speaking countries don't have the resources you can find in other countries



OK, sorry, the previous posts I made in this thread were specifically discussing the situation of immigrants in Anglo-America. However, the same holds for any other language too. It may sound counterintuitive, and it certainly runs contrary to the wishes and expectations of many people, but it is true: _kids learn the language of their peers, not their parents_. Any expectations that are contrarty to this rule will likely lead to nothing but frustration. 

The only relevant difference between countries is how much the immigrant communities are segregated. If they're segregated enough that companies of kids will form in which the immigrant language is dominant throughout their upbringing, then kids will learn the immigrant language like real natives. However, this means that they'll have trouble with the language of the host country unless they're also spending time in a different group of peers where this language is spoken. 

As for Canada, where I live, the resources immigrants have for preserving their heritage are excellent. The Croatian community is especially vigorous and active. It serves as the focus of social life for many children of Croatian immigrants, and their parents are making reasonable efforts to pass the language onto them. Yet, if you go to a Croatian social event, you'll see all people who were born here or came here as kids speaking English to each other, without exception. Among them, the only ones who could pass for actual native Croatian speakers are those who regularly spent significant amounts of time in Croatia before the critical age of around 12. 



> I was talking about people who would make an effort to speak their native language at home and would not give in even if their kids tend to use the other language, which doesn't have to be English.


And as I wrote above, this will make the kids learn some of the parents' language, but much less than they're probably hoping for -- and too much insistence can lead to ugly conflicts. If the parents are enthusiastic, knowing the realistic limitations can save them lots of frustration. 



> That's were native language support comes in, something that is not at all uncommon in many European countries. If a kid reads and write in the language (assuming the kid likes reading) besides his passive knowledge and perfect pronunciation he'll have a decent working command, even if maybe not a native level. This is very unusual in the US, large numbers of the Spanish speakers born there have never read a book in Spanish, they don't write it or read it regularly or ever.


Native language support exists in Canada for all major immigrant groups, but you're overestimating the level at which the immigrant kids will end up even with the best possible support. The Croatian community here, in my opinion, comes as close to perfection as possible in this regard. It provides extensive educational support and a whole range of social activities, in which many kids of Croatian immigrants participate. In this community, second-generation Croatians often make their best friends, find partners, constantly attend social events, etc. Yet among those who never actually lived in Croatia, you'll find very few competent speakers, and they all speak exclusively English with each other, without exception. They'll even often speak back in English if you address them in Croatian. Yes, most of them could get by in Croatia if necessary, but on average, their level is very poor and they consider it a pain when they're forced to speak Croatian, except for a few who are motivated by patriotic enthusiasm. 

To put it all in a nutshell, the only way to raise really bilingual kids is to constantly shift them between groups of monolingual peers. Anything else will produce very poor results.


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## Xiroi

Athaulf said:


> As for Canada, where I live, the resources immigrants have for preserving their heritage are excellent. The Croatian community is especially vigorous and active. It serves as the focus of social life for many children of Croatian immigrants, and their parents are making reasonable efforts to pass the language onto them.


That’s not the kind of resources I was talking about. That has more to do with socialising. I meant support in schools, as part of the educational system, not the initiative of a certain community. 



Athaulf said:


> Native language support exists in Canada for all major immigrant groups.


 
Only major immigrant groups? It sounds somewhat limited



Athaulf said:


> but *you're overestimating the level at which the immigrant kids will end up even with the best possible support*..


What makes you make such assumption? You're not the only one who's lived abroad or have first hand experiences with second generation immigrants. Maybe you're underestimating the ability of some people to succeed in areas where others face more difficulties or limitations, whether due to resources available in their areas, perseverance or God knows what.

In any case that goes into the forbidden area of personal perceptions and opinions so I'll leave it here before the mods start chopping our posts off.


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## Athaulf

Xiroi said:


> That's pushing things a bit too far. Kids don't like vegetables and many of them end up being vegetarians, not traumatised. I mean that's where parents ability comes in, the point is not forcing a stubborn teenager to do what he doesn't want to, it's about the parents having the ability (and time and energy) to make their little kids learn while having fun, so it doesn't feel as if they're imposing something that's boring or unnecessary.



The problem is that kids _do_ consider it boring and unnecessary, especially once they realize that non-immigrant kids aren't forced to do the same. I actually know of some cases where once kids figured out that the parents understand English, the parents' refusal to acknowledge their responses in English led to conflicts and even estrangement. And I'm not talking about teenagers -- after the age of 12, it's already too late for learning a language naturally. 

Even for kids who are young enough to do it without formal instruction, learning an extra language is very hard intellectual work, which they'll avoid if at all possible -- and even if they're forced, they'll learn only as much as absolutely necessary. Eating something they don't like is a much lesser inconvenience. 




> You have a clear view about second generation Croatian speakers in Canada and US, maybe some info about how things are like in Europe would be helpful. I daresay it's not quite the same. Again, I understand it's easier to go back home for Chirstmas if you live in Germany.



Going back home definitely helps, but that's because it exposes the kids to groups of peers monolingual in their heritage language. Peer pressure is the most powerful motivator for kids, especially in linguistic matters.


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## Xiroi

Athaulf said:


> Even for kids who are young enough to do it without formal instruction, learning an extra language is *very hard intellectual work, which they'll avoid if at all possible --* and even if they're forced, they'll learn only as much as absolutely necessary.


 


Athaulf said:


> The problem is that kids _do_ consider it boring and unnecessary, especially once they realize that non-immigrant kids aren't forced to do the same.


Again your perception, your experience. Not at all that way for all kids. I guess the key is "being forced". A 3 year old kid doesn't generally think of learning a language in those terms as they learn playing. I even know trilingual kids. No problem at all, no resentment, no struggle, not intelectually drained. Just kids.


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## Teena

My first language is Russian and I dont believe that I've seen too much of this. Most families speak it at home so the children at least can speak it. My brother was born in Canada but Russian is his first language (and he is the biggest patriot!) as we only spoke Russian at home (until he went to 1st grade). My mother makes him read/write in Russian along with his usual english homework. I definetely plan to do the same with my kids, wheather my husband speaks Russian or not.

Once thing I did notice though when I first went to school in Canada (grade 7, large percentage of the students were Russian) was that many kids that have recently arrived tried to erase every trace of being Russian. I have seem some pretending of having been in Canada longer than in reality as well faking "being bad in Russian". It seems to pass with the time though for the majority. Some of the friends that desperately tried to appear Canadan, now that they're fluent in English and Canadian citizens, take more pride in being Russian and speak to their friends almost exclusevely in the native language.


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## Athaulf

Xiroi said:


> That’s not the kind of resources I was talking about. That has more to do with socialising. I meant support in schools, as part of the educational system, not the initiative of a certain community.



That exists too, and it's supported by the government and available for free. Many Croatian parents do take advantage of it. My whole point is that all these influences of parents, education, and the whole ethnic community completely pale in comparison to the basic question: what language is dominant in the kids' peer group(s)? 



> Only major immigrant groups? It sounds somewhat limited


By this mean any immigrant group that exists in any substantial numbers (which means a huge number around here). 



> What makes you make such assumption? You're not the only one who's lived abroad or have first hand experiences with second generation immigrants. Maybe you're underestimating the ability of some people to succeed in areas where others face more difficulties or limitations, whether due to resources available in their areas, perseverance or God knows what.
> 
> In any case that goes into the forbidden area of personal perceptions and opinions so I'll leave it here before the mods start chopping our posts off.


As far as I know, personal experiences are allowed if they make a representative illustration of a whole community, which I believe is the case with everything I've written in this thread. I would be really curious to hear some experiences of yours that might be contrary to what I wrote. 

Furthermore, as I wrote above, the research in the area is, to the best of my knowledge, consistent with what I write. See e.g. here (section "Children learn languages easily") for a an interesting summary. 



Xiroi said:


> Again your perception, your experience. Not at all that way for all kids. I guess the key is "being forced". A 3 year old kid doesn't generally think of learning a language in those terms as they learn playing. I even know trilingual kids. No problem at all, no resentment, no struggle, not intelectually drained. Just kids.



Yes, but again, that requires that the kids are learning from each other, not from adults. Peer pressure will indeed make them into incredibly efficient language-learning machines. Also, without constant reinforcement from active use within a peer group, you can bet that this three (or five, or even seven) year old kid will forget most of what he learned.


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## MarX

I can only confirm what Athaulf has written so far. I've witnessed enough of these among the "Ausländers" here in Germany.

In general you see the same pattern. It all depends on your peers.


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## gillyfr

The arguments I have seen, and my own personal experience, would suggest that a number of factors are involved in raising multiligual children:

- parents' efforts and their persistence - those who refuse to or who cannot speak the majority language will raise children fluent in their own language

- the acceptance of the society you live in - how well the society (school, media, government institutions) accepts that you can speak other languages and have other cultural practices AS WELL AS the ones generally associated with the (majority population of) the society in question; this affects the children of the society and thus the children we are trying to raise as multilingual

- the availability of other speakers of the minority language as a support to parents' efforts - trips "home", meeting with other families who speak the same language, language and cultural schools, media such as DVDs of TV programs, TV channels, books and magazines

For the next generation, the same applies, but there may be an added factor of utility. If the language is not deemed useful, for either professional or cultural/heritage reasons, it will not survive.


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## chifladoporlosidiomas

Answering the original question, in my family Kreyol is the base language; however, not many of us speak it. This happened around the time of the first generation. My grandmother was OFFERED the chance to either learn Kreyol or to continue speaking only English. She unfortunately chose English becuase she "wanted to speak English with my friends on the playground." I learned it (to a good-enough extent) because my great-grandmother (my grandmothers mom) taught me when I was smaller. Nonetheless, growing up, I was discourage by my mother to not speak Kreyol because she didn't speak it and because she said that only 'poor people' and foreigners spoke. So, to this day I have limited spoken abilities, but I have learned to write it, and, I plan on only teaching my children how to speak Kreyol and not English. If my children want to speak English, they'll have more than an equall chance to learn it in school.


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## Chaska Ñawi

It seems, from the many posts that are drifting from the original topic, that this thread has run its course.  It has enjoyed a good run during its time here.

The thread is therefore closed. Thank you all for your contributions ... and for your understanding.


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