# Church



## rushalaim

Did English _"church"_ derive from Latin _"circus"_?


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## Ihsiin

No, it derives from Greek κυριακόν.


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## rushalaim

I see Matthew 18.20 _"For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the *midst* of them"_. That is a circle of three men. Latin _"circus"_ is also a circle shaped. Greek _κυριακόν "Lord's"_ is doubtful derivation.


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## Perseas

According to Duden-Herkunftswörterbuch:
_Das Wort wurde wahrscheinlich im Rahmen der Bautätigkeit der konstantinischen Epoche im Raum Trier entlehnt und breitete sich von dort aus._
griech._ kyriakón/_Vulgärform:_ kyrikón > _ahd._ kiricha, chirihha > _mhd._ kirche > _asächs._ kirika , _aengl._ cirice (_engl._ church)._


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## rushalaim

Perseas said:


> According to Duden-Herkunftswörterbuch:
> _Das Wort wurde wahrscheinlich im Rahmen der Bautätigkeit der konstantinischen Epoche im Raum Trier entlehnt und breitete sich von dort aus.
> kyriakón/_Vulgärform:_ kyrikón > _ahd._ kiricha, chirihha > _mhd._ kirche > _asächs._ kirika , _aengl._ cirice (_engl._ church)._


If you'll watch at Byzantine church there is a circle in the centre. Greek _κυριακόν "Lord's"_ is doubtful derivation.


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## Kevin Beach

Remember that the spelling and pronunciation of the Modern English word "Church" are mutations from Old English C_ir(i)ce_, C_yr(i)ce_., which is cognate with the Scottish _Kirk_ and German _Kirche_. The "C" at the front was originally pronounced as a "K" before being modified into a "ch" sound because of the increasing influence of Church Latin in England, in which there was a similar change in the pronunciation of "C". "Kirice" would have been the original pronunciation.

BUT - there are still opinions that "Church" is an entirely wrong word to use. For example: The Mysterious Word "Church" | Bein' a Berean


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## Circunflejo

rushalaim said:


> Did English _"church"_ derive from Latin _"circus"_?



Davide del Bello in his book Forgotten Paths: Etymology & the allegorical mindset (published by The Catholic University of America press in 2007) says in footprint number 6 of chapter one that 





> The link between "church" and "circus" seems, in fact, unattested.


Samuel Gosnell Green says in page 2 of A Handbook of Church History (published in 1904 by Religious Tract Society):





> Another proposed etymology, conecting the word with the root _circ,_ ([...], _circus, circulus, cirque, circle_), originally designating the ancient temples, which were circular in form, though once strongly maintained, is now generally regarded as untenable.


 Note: I used [...] because I don't know how to write Greek letters with my keyboard.


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## Perseas

Another interesting information is that _kyri(a)kón _was transmissed from Greek to German via the Goths, though in the East Roman Empire it was less common  in the sense "house of the Christian worship" than _ekklesia_ or _basiliké ._
Also, Romance and Celtic languages use variants of Latin _ecclesia_ (such as French _église_, 11c.).
church | Origin and meaning of church by Online Etymology Dictionary


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## berndf

Kevin Beach said:


> "K" before being modified into a "ch" sound because of the increasing influence of Church Latin in England, in which there was a similar change in the pronunciation of "C".
> ...
> "Kirice" would have been the original pronunciation.


I don't think so. That is normal Anglo-Frisian palatalization, which in OE, contrary to Frisian, also affected initial /k/ in front of front vowels. Compare English _*ch*icken_ and German _*K*üken_ (in German it is _Küken_ and not _*Küchen_, because it is a Low German loan and, hence, didn't undergo the High German consonant shift).


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## sotos

Could it be from the Gr. κήρυξ or κήρυγμα (call)? Westerners could understand εκ-κλησία as έκ-κλήση (calling), which is reasonable. Even today, the sermon in the Greek church is called κήρυγμα, the speaker is ιερο-κήρυξ etc. Compare also the similarity with Ευ-αγγέλιον (good announcement).


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## berndf

Careful: Germanic _kerk/Kirche/church_ etc., which is what we are discussing here, is not related to Latin _ecclesia_ and its modern Romance derivations like _église_.


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## rushalaim

sotos said:


> Could it be from the Gr. κήρυξ or κήρυγμα (call)? Westerners could understand εκ-κλησία as έκ-κλήση (calling), which is reasonable. Even today, the sermon in the Greek church is called κήρυγμα, the speaker is ιερο-κήρυξ etc. Compare also the similarity with Ευ-αγγέλιον (good announcement).


As far as I know Greek New Testament doesn't have any _"church"- _word just εκκλησία always. So, perhaps _"church"-_ word derived from Latin _"circus" _or_ "circulus"_? Additional Greek word may be συναγωγη_ "synagogue"="gathering"_?


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## rushalaim

berndf said:


> Careful: Germanic _kerk/Kirche/church_ etc., which is what we are discussing here, is not related to Latin _ecclesia_ and its modern Romance derivations like _église_.


Hebrew also has two related words for _"community"_ (Exodus 12.6). There are: a) קהל apparently from קול what corresponds to Greek συναγωγη; b) עדה what corresponds to Greek εκκλησία. Those two words are different but closely related. May Christians have two words for _"community"_: Latin _"circus"_ and Greek _"ekklesia"_? Luther used _"gemeinde" _not _"kirche"_.


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## berndf

rushalaim said:


> As far as I know Greek New Testament doesn't have any _"church"- _word just εκκλησία always. So, perhaps _"church"-_ word derived from Latin _"circus" _or_ "circulus"_? Additional Greek word may be συναγωγη_ "synagogue"="gathering"_?


_κυρι(α)κόν _with the meaning _house of God_, i.e. _church_ is well attested in Greek as of the 4th century. And we have other loans from the same source, like the aforementioned Gothic word and in Slavic, e.g. Russian церковь. There is no problem with that. What is a bit less clear is how the Greek word entered West and North Germanic, which must have happened at a very early stage, because it shows all the typical sound changes.


rushalaim said:


> Luther used _"gemeinde" _not _"kirche"_.


_Gemeinde_ is a parish congregation.


rushalaim said:


> Latin _"circus"_


This was an early 19th century theory proposed my Jacob Grimm to explain _Kirche_. It has been rejected my most scholars since then and has virtually no support today as no evidence has been produced. The earliest reference to the Greek etymon (_κυρι(α)κόν_) is from the 9th century by Walahfrid Strabo (_Quomodo theodisce domus Dei  dictur ~ How in German house of God is said_) with the oldest surviving copy from the early 16th century (written _kyrica_ there).


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## Perseas

berndf said:


> What is a bit less clear is how the Greek word entered West and North Germanic, which must have happened at a very early stage, because it shows all the typical sound changes.



I think that Duden's information I quoted in #4 covers somehow how the word entered West Germanic, since Trier is in West.



rushalaim said:


> Additional Greek word may be συναγωγη_ "synagogue"="gathering"_?


Not in this context: _a building used for Christian religious activities - worship services._


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## rushalaim

berndf said:


> _κυρι(α)κόν _with the meaning _house of God_, i.e. _church_ is well attested in Greek as of the 4th century. And we have other loans from the same source, like the aforementioned Gothic word and in Slavic, e.g. Russian церковь. There is no problem with that. What is a bit less clear is how the Greek word entered West and North Germanic, which must have happened at a very early stage, because it shows all the typical sound changes.
> 
> _Gemeinde_ is a parish congregation.
> 
> This was an early 19th century theory proposed my Jacob Grimm to explain _Kirche_. It has been rejected my most scholars since then and has virtually no support today as no evidence has been produced. The earliest reference to the Greek etymon (_κυρι(α)κόν_) is from the 9th century by Walahfrid Strabo (_Quomodo theodisce domus Dei  dictur ~ How in German house of God is said_) with the oldest surviving copy from the early 16th century (written _kyrica_ there).


Greek _"kuriakon"_ is just _"Lord's"_ not any "_house of God_". See Didache 14 "Κατα *κυριακην* δε Kυριου.." (_"On Sabbath"_= _"the Lord's_ [_day_] _of the Lord"_).

Coloquial Russian language's [_tserkow_] is always _"temple"_, but Religious Russians distinguish [_tserkow_] in the sense of _"congregation"_ from [_khram_] in the sense of _"temple"_. What did you mean writing церковь?


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## berndf

Perseas said:


> I think that Duden's information I quoted in #4 covers somehow how the word entered West Germanic, since Trier is in West.


Yes, through the larger cities in Roman Gaul with West Germanic population, like Trier and Cologne. That is to be expected. But why they didn't adopt a Latin origin term is less clear.


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## berndf

rushalaim said:


> Greek _"kuriakon"_ is just _"Lord's"_ not any "_house of God_". See Didache 14 "Κατα *κυριακην* δε Kυριου.." (_"On Sabbath"_= _"the Lord's_ [_day_] _of the Lord"_).


Sure. As such it is much older. It is the special sense _house of God_, which is attested as of the 4th century.


rushalaim said:


> Coloquial Russian language's [_tserkow_] is always _"temple"_, but Religious Russians distinguish [_tserkow_] in the sense of _"congregation"_ from [_khram_] in the sense of _"temple"_. What did you mean writing церковь?


The word as such independently of its modern usage.


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## Perseas

rushalaim said:


> Greek _"kuriakon"_ is just _"Lord's"_ not any "_house of God_".



Except for the adjective "kyriakon", there was the nominalized neuter "Κυριακόν" <<kyriakon (doma)>>, which meant temple, church.


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## rushalaim

Perseas said:


> Not in this context: _a building used for Christian religious activities - worship services._


Christians were Jews in the beginning. _"Synagogue"_ is _"congregation"_ according to Pentateuch not _"building"_.


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## rushalaim

berndf said:


> Sure. As such it is much older. It is the special sense _house of God_, which is attested as of the 4th century.


There is not any _"kuriakon"_ in the sense of _"house of god"_ in New Testament.


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## berndf

rushalaim said:


> There is not any _"kuriakon"_ in the sense of _"house of god"_ in New Testament.


Of course not. I said 4th century.


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## rushalaim

Perseas said:


> Except for the adjective "kyriakon", there was the nominalized neuter "Κυριακόν" <<kyriakon (doma)>>, which meant temple, church.


Greek New Testament doesn't write such a word. Isn't it strange?


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## rushalaim

berndf said:


> Of course not. I said 4th century.


Can you write examples of usage and how you dated it?


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## berndf

rushalaim said:


> Can you write examples of usage and how you dated it?


You can find it in any dictionary of Byzantine Greek. Example: LBG

PS: Text under above link copied:
κυριακόν, τό Kirche: MeyerHu 131,3. AASS Maii V 150F (Acta Donati). VNicMed XXIV F. Sonntag (falso pro -κή ?): AnBoll 86 (1968) 18.— LS, L, Tgl, Kr, Duc, Stam.​Lexikon zur byzantinischen Gräzität, Fascicles 1-7, Editor: Erich Trapp


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## Perseas

rushalaim said:


> Greek New Testament doesn't write such a word. Isn't it strange?


Νο, if that word was  more rencent (and apparently it was) than the New Testament times.
Apart from that, the borrowing of the word we discuss here did not occur before the 4th c.



rushalaim said:


> Can you write examples of usage and how you dated it?


About "Kyriakon" as a noun (nominalized adjective):
τὸ Κυριακόν (sc. δῶμα) the Lord's house *--> Edict.Maximiniap.Eus.PE9.10. *
Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott,  A Greek-English Lexicon, Κκ , κυ_ρεία , κυ_ρι-ακός

Another source: *--> Αποστ. Διατ. 3,59,883*


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## rushalaim

Perseas said:


> Νο, if that word was  more rencent (and apparently it was) than the New Testament times.
> Apart from that, the borrowing of the word we discuss here did not occur before the 4th c.
> 
> 
> About "Kyriakon" as a noun (nominalized adjective):
> τὸ Κυριακόν (sc. δῶμα) the Lord's house *--> Edict.Maximiniap.Eus.PE9.10. *
> Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott,  A Greek-English Lexicon, Κκ , κυ_ρεία , κυ_ρι-ακός
> 
> Another source: *--> Αποστ. Διατ. 3,59,883*


Why Luther and Tyndale used _"ekklesia"_ not _"kyriakon"_? To connect English _"church"_ with Greek _"kuriakon"_ is hard. Don't you see more obvious connection with Latin _"circus"_ on photo below where Byzantine temples have the circle for congregation in the centre? 
http://zagraevsky.com/classification.files/image009.jpg 
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/...cUIAg2tyPl5fThCsGtroK88QMIxDDCF9CkVm50ZEbjkCQ


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## berndf

rushalaim said:


> To connect English _"church"_ with Greek _"kuriakon"_ is hard.


No, not really. For some strange reason I fail to understand that's just not what you want to hear.


rushalaim said:


> Don't you see more obvious connection with Latin _"circus"_ on photo below where Byzantine temples have the circle for congregation in the centre?


As a theory it was worth exploring at the time (almost 200 years ago). But it didn't materialise. That's really the end of the story.


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## Perseas

rushalaim said:


> To connect English _"church"_ with Greek _"kuriakon"_ is hard. Don't you see more obvious connection with Latin _"circus"_


Why would they borrow the Latin word for the circle, for which I assume they already had one, and not the Latin word for the church: ecclesia?

cross-posted with berndf


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## Circunflejo

I thought that we should answer this question: 


rushalaim said:


> Did English _"church"_ derive from Latin _"circus"_?


However, it seems that what @rushalaim really wants of us is to prove that church derives from Latin circus and, with all due respect, if you have a theory that was disregarded more than a century ago, it's you who have to prove that it was wrongly disregarded.


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## rushalaim

Perseas said:


> Why would they borrow the Latin word for the circle, for which I assume they already had one, and not the Latin word for the church: ecclesia?
> 
> cross-posted with berndf


The Latin word _"congregation"_ is _"ecclesiam"_. By the way, Hebrew חג  or Muslim [haj] is _"holiday; feast"_ in Pentateuch, what maybe correlates with _"circus"_ on photo below 
https://midlifeinmaine.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/2014-09-10-17-42-49_resized.jpg


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## rushalaim

Circunflejo said:


> I thought that we should answer this question:
> 
> However, it seems that what @rushalaim really wants of us is to prove that church derives from Latin circus and, with all due respect, if you have a theory that was disregarded more than a century ago, it's you who have to prove that it was wrongly disregarded.


Sorry, if I've made such an impression on you, but _"church"_ from _"kyriakon"_ seems to me doubtful. If a century ago there were several opinions, that means _"kyriakon"_-theory is disputable. Maybe today there are other investigations?


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## Circunflejo

rushalaim said:


> Sorry, if I've made such an impression on you, but _"church"_ from _"kyriakon"_ seems to me doubtful.



I didn't suggest yet an etymology for church because that wasn't the question. The question, as I said above, was if it comes from Latin circle and the answer is that nowadays (almost?) all the experts think that it doesn't come from Latin circle. What's the etymology of church? or What alternative theories to the kyriakon one exist? are very interesting questions but this thread was about something different.


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## rushalaim

Circunflejo said:


> I didn't suggest yet an etymology for church because that wasn't the question. The question, as I said above, was if it comes from Latin circle and the answer is that nowadays (almost?) all the experts think that it doesn't come from Latin circle. What's the etymology of church? or What alternative theories to the kyriakon one exist? are very interesting questions but this thread was about something different.


Agreement of some (not all) experts and truth are two different things, isn't it?


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## berndf

rushalaim said:


> Agreement of some (not all) experts and truth are two different things, isn't it?


The topic is quite well researched and the results have been summarised here. If you want to re-open the case you have to come with substantial evidence, which you didn't.


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## Circunflejo

rushalaim said:


> Agreement of some (not all) experts and truth are two different things, isn't it?



In science, _truth _exists just till someone proves otherwise so what you really have is not truth but plausible explanations considered at the moment good enough to answer a question.


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## aruniyan

How about the Sanskrit word *Gurukul*(teaching school), meaning Guru(teacher) Kula(group, family or home), just bringing this as some of the sounds matching.


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## apmoy70

aruniyan said:


> How about the Sanskrit word *Gurukul*(teaching school), meaning Guru(teacher) Kula(group, family or home), just bringing this as some of the sounds matching.


The cognate of guru in Greek is the adjective βαρύς, so, it's unlikely that there's a connection between church/κυριακόν & gurukul


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## rushalaim

berndf said:


> Sure. As such it is much older. It is the special sense _house of God_, which is attested as of the 4th century.


Actually, New Testament has _"kyriakon"-_word always in the sense of _"Lord's"_ not any _"house of god"_ (Revelation 1:10; 1Corinthians 11:20): _"Lord's"_ [_supper_] and _"Lord's"_ [_day_].


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## OBrasilo

Doesn't _church_ actually come from _kyriake oikeia_, which literally means "the LORD's house"?


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## Perseas

OBrasilo said:


> Doesn't _church_ actually come from _kyriake oikeia_, which literally means "the LORD's house"?


Sources mention "_kyriakón dôma" ("κυριακόν δῶμα")._
According to this online dictionary_ "dôma" _denoted "house of gods":
Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott,  A Greek-English Lexicon, δ , δωδεκα^τημόριος , δῶμα


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## berndf

rushalaim said:


> Actually, New Testament has _"kyriakon"-_word always in the sense of _"Lord's"_ not any _"house of god"_ (Revelation 1:10; 1Corinthians 11:20): _"Lord's"_ [_supper_] and _"Lord's"_ [_day_].


Yes but irrelevant for this discussion because we all agree _κυριακόν=house of God _is a usage that is younger than the canonical text of the NT.


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## rushalaim

berndf said:


> Yes but irrelevant for this discussion because we all agree _κυριακόν=house of God _is a usage that is younger than the canonical text of the NT.


My post 16 above I mentioned Greek Didache 14 used _"kyriakon"_-word in the sense of just _"Lord's"_ not any _"house of god"_. Didache was written in 10th century. Thus, as New Testament as Didache used _"kyriakon"_-word in the same sense.


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## Perseas

rushalaim said:


> My post 16 above I mentioned Greek Didache 14 used _"kyriakon"_-word in the sense of just _"Lord's"_ not any _"house of god"_. Didache was written in 10th century. Thus, as New Testament as Didache used _"kyriakon"_-word in the same sense.


See #26



Perseas said:


> About "Kyriakon" as a noun (nominalized adjective):
> τὸ Κυριακόν (sc. δῶμα) the Lord's house *--> Edict.Maximiniap.Eus.PE9.10. *
> Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott,  A Greek-English Lexicon, Κκ , κυ_ρεία , κυ_ρι-ακός
> Another source: *--> Αποστ. Διατ. 3,59,883*


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## rushalaim

Κατὰ κυριακὴν δὲ κυρίου συναχθέντες κλάσατε ἄρτον καὶ εὐχαριστήσατε, προεξομολογησάμενοι τὰ παραπτώματα ὑμῶν, ὅπως καθαρὰ ἡ θυσία ὑμῶν ᾖ


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## Perseas

rushalaim said:


> Κατὰ κυριακὴν δὲ κυρίου συναχθέντες κλάσατε ἄρτον καὶ εὐχαριστήσατε, προεξομολογησάμενοι τὰ παραπτώματα ὑμῶν, ὅπως καθαρὰ ἡ θυσία ὑμῶν ᾖ


Of course "κυριακός/κυριακή/κυριακόν" was an adjective, but in many languages some adjectives can be nominalized, i.e. they function as nouns.  "Κυριακόν" as a noun could mean "House of the Lord". Also, "Sunday" in Greek is "Κυριακή" (from "Κυριακή ημέρα" -- "the day of the Lord"), another case of the adjective's nominalization.


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## apmoy70

rushalaim said:


> My post 16 above I mentioned Greek Didache 14 used _"kyriakon"_-word in the sense of just _"Lord's"_ not any _"house of god"_. Didache was written in *10th century*. Thus, as New Testament as Didache used _"kyriakon"_-word in the same sense.


That would be 1st c. (consensus of scholars), or at the most 2nd-late 2nd c. and certainly not 10th


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## rushalaim

apmoy70 said:


> That would be 1st c. (consensus of scholars), or at the most 2nd-late 2nd c. and certainly not 10th


The scroll of Didache is dated of 10th century and there are not any earlier scrolls. So-called "consensus" of scholars is just agreement of some men (not all). "Consensus" and truth are two different things, isn't it?


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## apmoy70

rushalaim said:


> The scroll of Didache is dated of 10th century and there are not any earlier scrolls. So-called "consensus" of scholars is just agreement of some men (not all). "Consensus" and truth are two different things, isn't it?


Fragments of the Didache appear in the Oxyrhynchus papyri written probably in the 4th c. while a Coptic translation that exists is probably a century younger.


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## rushalaim

apmoy70 said:


> Fragments of the Didache appear in the Oxyrhynchus papyri written probably in the 4th c. while a Coptic translation that exists is probably a century younger.


Fragment are not any decent text. Qumran dead sea scrolls are also fragments. We can discuss just whole text and date it.


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## rushalaim

Perseas said:


> Of course "κυριακός/κυριακή/κυριακόν" was an adjective, but in many languages some adjectives can be nominalized, i.e. they function as nouns.  "Κυριακόν" as a noun could mean "House of the Lord". Also, "Sunday" in Greek is "Κυριακή" (from "Κυριακή ημέρα" -- "the day of the Lord"), another case of the adjective's nominalization.


1Corinthians 11.20; Revelation 1.10 _"kyriakon"_-word is always ajective _"Lord's"_: Lord's supper; Lord's day and not any _"house of god"_.

συνερχομενων ουν υμων επι το αυτο ουκ εστιν κυριακον δειπνον φαγειν 
εγενομην εν πνευματι εν τη κυριακη ημερα και ηκουσα οπισω μου φωνην μεγαλην ως σαλπιγγος


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## berndf

rushalaim said:


> 1Corinthians 11.20; Revelation 1.10 _"kyriakon"_-word is always ajective _"Lord's"_: Lord's supper; Lord's day and not any _"house of god"_.


As said before:


berndf said:


> Yes but irrelevant for this discussion because we all agree _κυριακόν=house of God _is a usage that is younger than the canonical text of the NT.


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## berndf

rushalaim said:


> Fragment are not any decent text. Qumran dead sea scrolls are also fragments. We can discuss just whole text and date it.


That makes absolutely no sense. What matters is when a text was written and not the age of the earliest complete surviving copy of that text. The Great Isaiah Scroll od Qumran, e.g., is practically complete with maybe 10% of the text damaged. There is absolutely no reason it should be discarded because of these small damaged portions. But even smaller fragments can serve as evidence of the age of a text if these fragments shoe sufficient consistency with younger copies.


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## rushalaim

berndf said:


> That makes absolutely no sense. What matters is when a text was written and not the age of the earliest complete surviving copy of that text. The Great Isaiah Scroll od Qumran, e.g., is practically complete with maybe 10% of the text damaged. There is absolutely no reason it should be discarded because of these small damaged portions. But even smaller fragments can serve as evidence of the age of a text if these fragments shoe sufficient consistency with younger copies.


This is not a point to discuss! *If we don't have any complete text we cannot analyse it.* Qumran scrolls (fragments indeed) is political myth of Zionism. There is not any Qumran Torah just tiny scraps. Today there are many fake scrolls when ink is erased on genuine parchments and new text is written on fake Qumran texts.


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## berndf

rushalaim said:


> This is not a point to discuss! *If we don't have any complete text we cannot analyse it.* Qumran scrolls (fragments indeed) is political myth of Zionism. There is not any Qumran Torah just tiny scraps. Today there are many fake scrolls when ink is erased on genuine parchments and new text is written on fake Qumran texts.


The only "myths" I can see around here are your attempts to distort the evidence there is and to construct fictional alternative timelines. It makes no sense to continue this discussion on such that basis.


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## Awwal12

rushalaim said:


> Coloquial Russian language's [_tserkow_] is always _"temple"_


Consider "Русская православная церковь".


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## Ihsiin

rushalaim said:


> "Consensus" and truth are two different things, isn't it?



Quid est veritas?

I found your line of argumentation very strange, even if it weren’t full of misrepresentation. Of course κυριακόν means ‘of the Lord’, but it was ALSO used in the sense of temple or church. Why do you think that one meaning should preclude the other? More pertinently, what does this line of logic say about your own assertion about _circus_? After all, _circus_ means ‘circle’ not ‘church’, and still means ‘circle’ such as in Italian _cerchio_. Are you not trying to have your cake and eat it too?


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## rushalaim

Ihsiin said:


> Quid est veritas?
> 
> I found your line of argumentation very strange, even if it weren’t full of misrepresentation. Of course κυριακόν means ‘of the Lord’, but it was ALSO used in the sense of temple or church. Why do you think that one meaning should preclude the other? More pertinently, what does this line of logic say about your own assertion about _circus_? After all, _circus_ means ‘circle’ not ‘church’, and still means ‘circle’ such as in Italian _cerchio_. Are you not trying to have your cake and eat it too?


I agree with you. Assuming, in ancient times, one could say: "Let's go to a circle/circus" meaning let's join congregation in a church's circle, meaning both as _"congregation"_ as _"church"_ at the same time. But, saying as if Greek _"kyriakon"_ is _"church"_ is mistake. I think, this topic is exhausted.


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## berndf

rushalaim said:


> But, saying as if Greek _"kyriakon"_ is _"church"_ is mistake.


It doesn't really matter if you or me or anyone today find it wrong usage but what matters is if this usage (nominalized use of _κυριακόν_ in the sense of _house of God_)

Existed in late Roman and Byzantine Greek
This usage (whether it was a "mistake" or not) was known in what is now Germany in late antiquity and early Middle Ages so that it can serve as a basis for the proto West Germanic Germanic word (*_kirike_).
As to 1., references can be found in #25 and #26 above. As to 2., we have the 9th century testimony of Walahfrid mentioned in #14. So, there is evidence, though only scarce.


rushalaim said:


> Assuming, in ancient times, one could say: "Let's go to a circle/circus" meaning let's join congregation in a church's circle, meaning both as _"congregation"_ as _"church"_ at the same time.


By contrast, for this there is no evidence at all, only imagination.


rushalaim said:


> I think, this topic is exhausted.


It has long been, after #26.


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