# それは叶わないと諦めすら忘れていたこと



## zebedeee

Can I get some help with this sentence please?

それは叶わないと諦めすら忘れていたこと

Context is it starts with this person remembering someone saying this to him:

「家族と思ってくれていいですからね」

This person who asked if they could think of him as family is taking care of him after he hurt himself and he recalls they said that.
He's always been a loner and tried to keep it that way and now suddenly he finds himself caught up with a couple of people and it's become very much like a family situation. He hasn't encouraged them to stick around but he hasn't discouraged them either.

すら is the same as　さえ right? I have a bit of trouble with さえ. It emphasises the preceding word? As in 'even'?

and 叶わないと what's the と doing - if I don't, when I don't or and?

Does this means something like "I'd forgotten all about that, unable to grant it, even running away"?


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## Starfrown

「家族と思ってくれていいですからね」

"(Because) it's okay if (you) think (of us) as family."

The person who said this was not asking him if they could think of him as family (I cannot imagine in my wildest dreams a Japanese person putting someone in such an awkward social situation; what if he says "no"!?!); they were telling _him_ that _he_ could think of _them_ as family.

Next part:

それは叶わないと諦めすら忘れていたこと

I'll try a literal translation:

*Edit in response to Flam's post below: I'll hold off on any translation until we clear up the "to" issue.*


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## lammn

Starfrown, I have entirely different interpretation than yours.
I hope you don't mind, since I am not Flam nor masatom that you call for.



zebedeee said:


> 「家族と思ってくれていいですからね」


 
"It would be nice if they can regard me as their family members".



zebedeee said:


> それは叶わないと諦めすら忘れていたこと"


 
The main point is that the verb 叶う/叶わない often _deal with "wishes_".
So, それ here refers to a _wish_ - a wish that he would be treated by them as a family member, even though he is just an outsider.

_A translation would be:_

If this wish is not granted/If they don't treat me as their family members, I should forget about this (wish) and even give up (such a wish).



zebedeee said:


> すら is the same as　さえ right? I have a bit of trouble with さえ. It emphasises the preceding word? As in 'even'?


 
Zebedeee, you are right. すら is similar to さえ, but I can't tell the exact difference.
It does emphasize the word preceding it. 



zebedeee said:


> and 叶わないと what's the と doing - if I don't, when I don't or and?


 
This と is the conditional と, translate to "if" in English.


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## zebedeee

Thank you both. I'm still confused though 

As for this bit:
「家族と思ってくれていいですからね」 I believe Starfrown is right and this does mean - You can think of us as family.

This was said by someone else. It was remembering this that the second person thought
それは叶わないと諦めすら忘れていたこと


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## Starfrown

lammn said:


> Starfrown, I have entirely different interpretation than yours. I hope you don't mind, since I am not Flam nor masatom that you call for.


 
I never mind input from others, no matter who they are. I just have had more interaction with those two than anyone else on the board (and they are native Japanese).



lammn said:


> "It would be nice if they can regard me as their family members".


 
I don't really think this works here. Zebedee explicitly said that someone else made the statement to the main character; it was not a thought of his.



lammn said:


> The main point is that the verb 叶う/叶わない often _deal with "wishes_".
> So, それ here refers to a _wish_ - a wish that he would be treated by them as a family member, even though he is just an outsider.
> 
> _A translation would be:_
> 
> If this wish is not granted/If they don't treat me as their family members, I should forget about this (wish) and even give up (such a wish).


 
I have to say that I think you're wrong here. First of all, your translation of this line hinges upon your mistranslation of the earlier line. Secondly, I don't see how you can justify rendering "wasurete ita" as "I should/would forget about..." Thirdly, "akirame" is a verb-derived _noun_; I don't think it can function verbally here, as in your translation: "...even give up..." It is, I believe acting as the direct object of "wasurete ita"; the particle "sura" replaces the direct object maker "wo".

*Edit: statement about "kanau" deleted; see my later post.*



lammn said:


> Zebedeee, you are right. すら is similar to さえ, but I can't tell the exact difference.
> It does emphasize the word preceding it.


 
Yes, "sura" is very similar to "sae." I don't think it can replace "sae" in every situation, though. I'll have to check my reference books.

*Edit: statement on "to" deleted; will wait for clarification from Flam.*



zebedeee said:


> Thank you both. I'm still confused though


 
Tell me your exact grammatical concerns, and I'll try to address them.


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## zebedeee

Starfrown said:


> Tell me your exact grammatical concerns, and I'll try to address them.



Well having reread your post and your reply to lammn (which was very helpful) it's all a lot clearer now


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## Starfrown

The thing that worries me is kanau. I'd like someone else to give his thoughts on the interpretation of this word in this context. I found the following definition in a Japanese-Japanese dictionary:

(3)（動作性の名詞などを受け、下に打ち消し表現を伴って）…することができる。…することが許される。

So perhaps instead of "it didn't suit me," we should have "I couldn't do it."

Then there's this definition, which was discussed earlier:

(1)願望が実現する。

I suppose he could be referring to the desire of the other person to have the main character as a part of the family. That wish "didn't come true," "wasn't realized."  The thing is, when it's written with the character 叶, is often has this meaning, as Lamm pointed out.

I think we're close, but this matter is far from settled.


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## zebedeee

I'm leaning a bit towards kanau meaning unable to/couldn't do it, because it wasn't in his nature or he just wasn't used to it having always been alone.

Hmm I'm looking at what else he says afterwards that might throw light on that.

He says お前は滑り落ちはなかった to other person which really confuses them since it comes out of nowhere. I assume he means that his friend hasn't fallen by the wayside like everyone else. ie. he's still around.

Then when the other person says goodnight and see you tomorrow he thinks:
耳に残る心地良い響き

So he seems like he is getting the family feeling and he doesn't hate it.

That's all that seem relevant.


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## Flaminius

Forgive my rather boat-turning comment but と is not a clause-linkage marker here.  It introduces a circumstantial adverbial clause.  I am aware there is very little room for "never" and "always" in the discipline we discuss here but it is very difficult, at least, to have a と inside an embedded remark.


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## Starfrown

Flaminius said:


> Forgive my rather boat-turning comment but と is not a clause-linkage marker here. It introduces a circumstantial adverbial clause. I am aware there is very little room for "never" and "always" in the discipline we discuss here but it is very difficult, at least, to have a と inside an embedded remark.


 
Please elaborate.

What would you suggest for それは叶わないと諦めすら忘れていたこと?


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## zebedeee

I found this in a grammar dictionary:

と - a particle which makes an adverbial clause, with a verb of saying/thinking/understood after it.

an example is 読めるとうれしがっている　- someone is happy thinking/saying that they can read it.

I'm still a bit unsure on 叶わない though.

Maybe it's thinking/knowing that I couldn't do that I resigned myself to it and forgot about it.


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## Starfrown

zebedeee said:


> I found this in a grammar dictionary:
> 
> と - a particle which makes an adverbial clause, with a verb of saying/thinking/understood after it.
> 
> an example is 読めるとうれしがっている　- someone is happy thinking/saying that they can read it.


 
That's what I thought he meant.

I'll hazard a modified (literal) translation:

"As for that, (thinking it) wouldn't come to be, (I) had forgotten even giving up (on it)."

How about this one, Flam?


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## Starfrown

I think the main problem for us now is pinning down exactly which sense of kanau is being used here. It's most fundamental meaning appears to be "matching." When real-life circumstances "match" those of one's dreams, we say that the wish has come true, has been realized, etc. When conditions are as I like them, they are suited to me, i.e. "matched" to my tastes. When we can't do, or can't bear, something, we are not equal to it, i.e. we can't "match" up to it. When I lose to my friend in kendo, I am no "match" for him. Kanau can be used in all of these situations.

In this case, I think it really comes down to these possibilities:

"...it wouldn't come to be..." (as I have above)
"...I couldn't do it..." or "...I couldn't bear it..."
"...it wouldn't suit me..."


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## Flaminius

> What would you suggest for それは叶わないと諦めすら忘れていたこと?


[The idea of having a family] is something I've been oblivious even of resignation that it's not going to happen.

In a more wordy rendition, he has given up on having a family so completely that he cannot recall when/how he gave up.

As an aside, I don't think it is very straightforward even in Japanese.  One can attribute it, according to one's disposition, to the narrator's clumsiness at the peak of emotion or to the clumsiness of the manga author.


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## Starfrown

Well, it seems that I got the sense of "kanau" right. In fact, you pretty much agree with my earlier post.

It appears, Flam, that the "to" in 叶わないと諦め marks the content of "akirame." Unfortunately, I don't think we can say "resignation that it's not going to happen"; it's odd because similar expressions, such as "the belief that it's not going to happen" and "the fact that it's not going to happen" are fine.  (That's probably why Zeb and I had such trouble in interpreting this rather simple sentence.)  I think that we would basically be forced to use something like what I've suggested earlier, which I'll modify slightly once again, in light of your post:

"That (was) something I had forgotten even giving up on, (thinking it) wouldn't happen."

This really isn't all that much different from what you've suggested, and it conforms to the limitations of English.  Of course, it definitely is not the same; it suggests a causality (i.e. I forgot because I thought it wouldn't happen) that is not present in the original Japanese. The attributive phrases of Japanese are extremely powerful, and sometimes English just can't cope with them.


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## Flaminius

Starfrown said:


> "That (was) something I had forgotten even giving up on, (thinking it) wouldn't happen."


I like your translation!



> This really isn't all that much different from what you've suggested, and it conforms to the limitations of English.


I think the Japanese sentence goes beyond the limitations of the Japanese syntax.


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## Starfrown

Flam, you've made it clear that you believe "to" marks the content of "akirame" as I've posted above.  However, since no verb is given after "to," is there anything to stop us from reading the sentence as:

それは叶わないと思って、諦めすら忘れていたこと

??


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## Ocham

それは叶わないと can be それは叶わないと思って or それは叶わないことと思って.
But I don't understand why nobody has suggested that すら should not
take place here. 諦めすら忘れていたこと is simply wrong.


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## Flaminius

> However, since no verb is given after "to," is there anything to stop us from reading the sentence as:
> 
> それは叶わないと思って、諦めすら忘れていたこと
> 
> ??


"Whew, it's so hot.  Help me off with my coat, constable!" said Ochumelov before he changed his opinion for the 34th time in the morning.  

Yes, it's more regular grammar.



> But I don't understand why nobody has suggested that すら should not
> take place here. 諦めすら忘れていたこと is simply wrong.


*Ocham*, why do you think so?


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## Ocham

Because I have never heard or seen such wording all my life. If you 
asked 1000 Japanese the same question here, 1000 out of 1000 would 
answer it's simply wrong.

それは叶わないと諦め、忘れて*さえ*いた would be OK.
それは叶わないと諦めていたし、覚えて*すら*いない would also be OK.


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## Flaminius

Ocham said:


> Because I have never heard or seen such wording all my life. If you asked 1000 Japanese the same question here, 1000 out of 1000 would answer it's simply wrong.
> 
> それは叶わないと諦め、忘れて*さえ*いた would be OK.
> それは叶わないと諦めていたし、覚えて*すら*いない would also be OK.


I am sorry if subtleties passed you by.  I was asking you to give a reason to support your disagreement.  Indirect evidence ("すら should not take place here") suggests that you are objecting 諦めすら because you take 諦め as a conjugation of a verb.  Before continuing the discussion, however, I shall prevail upon you to please advise if I understood you correctly.


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## Ocham

それは叶わないと諦めすら忘れていたこと doesn't make any sense whether 諦め 
is a conjugation of a verb or a noun. すら of this kind would be acceptable 
only when a whole sentence sounds natural to native speakers.

Example:
それは叶わないという諦め*すら*抱いていた。
生きようとする望み*すら*持っていなかった。


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## Starfrown

Let me plainly state the problem that I am having with this sentence. Consider the following rather silly example (forgive me if I haven't made the best choices):
 

私は彼がきっと試験に合格する*と*確信を失った。


"I lost the conviction that he would definitely pass the test."
 

In this case, I think it is very clear that "to" marks the content of "kakushin," the "conviction." I don't think anyone would argue that it could be read as:
 

私は彼がきっと試験に合格する*と**思って*確信を失った。
 

"Thinking that he would definitely pass the test, I lost the conviction."
 

This suggests something completely different.
 

Now consider our present sentence (I'll leave it to the natives to debate the "sura" issue; I'll just post it as it was originally presented):
 

それは叶わない*と*諦めすら忘れていたこと
 

In this case, it seems that "to" could be seen as either marking the content of "akirame," giving "resignation that it would not happen". Or that the sentence could be read as:
 

それは叶わない*と思って*諦めすら忘れていたこと
 

"Thinking that it would not happen..."
 

There is a difference between the two versions. My question is, how do you know whether "to" is indicating the content of a noun or implying a conjunctive phrase such as "to omotte"? Do you just evaluate it on a case by case basis?
 

I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here, but I really want to achieve closure on this issue.


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## Flaminius

When everything is bright and clear outside, I tend to have great ideas.  

*Starfrown*, how about the following as a parallel construction for the topic sentence?
1. それはもしかしてと望みさえ抱いていたこと
Gross: This was something I even had a hope for, like "Maybe, maybe[, it's possible]."

The _to_-clause modifies the verb phrase 望みさえ抱く.  A rewrite is:
2. それはもしかしてと思って、望みさえ抱いていたこと

*Ocham*, if you can accept Sentence 1 as a good Japanese sentence, what is it that stops you from doing the same for the topic sentence?  (I might also have to mention that the topic sentence was quoted from a Japanese manga.)

If it's a problem understanding the sentence (as opposed to parsing it), I have the same difficulty.  I still think this sentence is written to be understood "as is" and conveys subtle nuances but I wonder if acrobatically arranged constructions were at all necessary to achieve the same effect.

[My favourite example for the points above is Chomsky's "Colorless green ideas sleep furiously."]


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## Starfrown

Flaminius said:


> *Starfrown*, how about the following as a parallel construction for the topic sentence?
> 1. それはもしかしてと望みさえ抱いていたこと
> Gross: This was something I even had a hope for, like "Maybe, maybe[, it's possible]."
> 
> *The to-clause modifies the verb phrase 望みさえ抱く*. A rewrite is:
> 2. それはもしかしてと思って、望みさえ抱いていたこと


 
That's what I thought.


Let's go back to the example I used last time:


私は彼がきっと試験に合格する*と*確信を失った。

 
Is this the same as:

 
私は彼がきっと試験に合格する*と**の*確信を失った。? 
 

Basically I'm wondering whether it is okay to use "to" alone to indicate the content of a noun.


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## Flaminius

> Basically I'm wondering whether it is okay to use "to" alone to indicate the content of a noun.


No, _-to_ alone cannot indicate the content of a noun.  The sentence with 試験に合格する*と*確信を is ungrammatical.


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## Starfrown

I see that I misunderstood you earlier. Well, I'm glad to finally put the matter to rest.

Many thanks, Flam, as always.


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## zebedeee

My thanks too. This was very educational


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## Flaminius

Starfrown said:


> I see that I misunderstood you earlier.


Well, I misunderstood the sentence for a while, thus the unusually long-winded thread.  I thank everyone for her patience.  

Edit:
Perhaps someone still takes interest in this.

As I have said, "私は彼がきっと試験に合格すると確信を失った" is ungrammatical but the following is not:
私は彼がきっと試験に合格すると確信を抱いた。

The only difference being the choice of the main verb, it may be well said that the grammaticality of the sentence hinges on how amenable the content of the _to_-clause is to the following verb phrase.  This is one more proof that _to_-clauses modify verb phrases; not the verb or the noun alone.


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## akimura

I just came in this thread the first time.  Realizing there had been very fruitful discussions already, I still thought that I would add my comment from a native Japanese speaker's perspective about the clause in discussion.

First, the clause is ungrammatical.  But it is understandable so that I've come up with the following grammatical versions:

1) それは叶わないという諦めすら忘れていたこと or それは叶わないという諦めさえ忘れていたこと, meaning "that I've forgotten even the despair that it would never come true," 

or in a much more natural style, 

2) それは叶わないと諦めていたことすら忘れていたこと or それは叶わないと諦めていたことさえ忘れていたこと, meaning "that I've forgotten even that I was in despair of it never coming true."

Second, the original clause still sounds poetic, so I wouldn't be surprised if it appeared in a poem, pop song, etc. 

I hope this helps..


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## akimura

Starfrown said:


> 私は彼がきっと試験に合格する*と*確信を失った。
> 
> Is this the same as:
> 
> 私は彼がきっと試験に合格する*と**の*確信を失った。?



No.  The former is totally not gramatical. I am not totally sure if the latter is not gramatical, but it does sound strange.  If the "確信を失った" structure is to be maintained, the following sentence seems better, but some may still say it is not gramatical either.

私は彼がきっと試験に合格する*という*確信*を失った。 *
I lost the confidence that he would surely pass the exam.

Alternatively, the "確信を持てなくなった" structure works quite well, while と works differently from との and という.

私は彼がきっと試験に合格する*と*確信*を持てなくなった*。 
I could no longer had a confidence that went, "He will surely pass the exam."

while:
私は彼がきっと試験に合格する*との*確信*を持てなくなった*。
 私は彼がきっと試験に合格する*という*確信*を持てなくなった*。
I could no longer have the confidence that he would surely pass the exam.

I hope this helps.


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## Starfrown

Gods above!!! Will it never end?!?



Flaminius said:


> Edit:
> Perhaps someone still takes interest in this.
> 
> As I have said, "私は彼がきっと試験に合格すると確信を失った" is ungrammatical but the following is not:
> 私は彼がきっと試験に合格すると確信を抱いた。
> 
> The only difference being the choice of the main verb, it may be well said that the grammaticality of the sentence hinges on how amenable the content of the _to_-clause is to the following verb phrase. This is one more proof that _to_-clauses modify verb phrases; not the verb or the noun alone.


 
Now read this excerpt from Akimura's post:



akimura said:


> 私は彼がきっと試験に合格する*と*確信*を持てなくなった*。
> I could no longer had a confidence that went, "He will surely pass the exam."


 
You two seem to be at odds concerning what exactly adverbial "to" can do.  Clearly Akimura's sentence violates the standards that Flaminius has given; i.e. the "to" clause indicates the content of the noun "kakushin" in Akimura's sentence.  It surely could not modify the verb, as that would give something like the following:
 
(Thinking) "He will surely pass the exam," I could no longer have the conviction.
 
This doesn't really make sense.
 
Is there any way to reconcile these two positions?


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## Flaminius

Starfrown said:


> Clearly Akimura's sentence violates the standards that Flaminius has given; i.e. the "to" clause indicates the content of the noun "kakushin" in Akimura's sentence.


No it doesn't.  I argue that the _to_-clause modifies the smallest verb phrase it can find.

OK 私は彼がきっと試験に合格すると*確信を持*てなくなった。 
* 私は彼がきっと試験に合格すると*確信を失っ*た。


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## akimura

Hello again,



Flaminius said:


> OK 私は彼がきっと試験に合格すると*確信を持*てなくなった。
> * 私は彼がきっと試験に合格すると*確信を失っ*た。



I would agree with Flaminius.  There seems to be a collocation issue.  "確信" is something that you "持つ (_motsu_ or have)," "抱く(_idaku_ or hold)," or "得る (_eru_ or gain)," or something that "高まる (_takamaru_ or heightens)," "深まる (_fukamaru_ or deepens)," or "薄れ始める(_usurehajimeru_ or starts to fade)."  

There may be other verbs that could be used, but I cannot come up with anything else off the top of my head.  

So, the following examples are okay, or at least sounds okay to me:私は彼がきっと試験に合格するという確信を 持った/抱いた。
I came to "have/hold" a conviction that he would surely pass the exam.

私は彼がきっと試験に合格するという確信を得た。
I "gained" the conviction that he would surely pass the exam.

私は彼がきっと試験に合格するという確信を持てなくなった。
I could no longer "have" the conviction that he would surely pass the exam.

彼がきっと試験に合格するという確信が 高まった/深まった。
[My] conviction that he would surely pass the exam "heightened/deepened".

彼がきっと試験に合格するという確信が薄れ始めた。
[My] conviction that he would surely pass the exam "started to fade".
​However, "確信" is NOT something that you "失う (_ushinau_ or lose)".  This is the very reason why "私は彼がきっと試験に合格する　との（という）　確信を失った" sounds at least very strange to me.  Somehow, though, the "という" version sounded barely okay with its strangeness maintained, which led to my previous post.  Anyhow, I wouldn't be surprised if some Japanese linguists or native Japanese speakers in general would argue that it is totally ungrammatical.
_
By the way, as English is my (first and only) foreign language, I've started to wonder if there is any collocation issue with the < verb + conviction> structure, but this is another issue..._


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## akimura

Regarding the English translation of "私は彼がきっと試験に合格すると確信を持てなくなった", I made it to "I could no longer have the confidence that went, 'He will surely pass the exam.'  However, if this English translation connotates something that follows, I was wrong:



Starfrown said:


> (Thinking) "He will surely pass the exam," I could no longer have the conviction.
> 
> This doesn't really make sense.



Since it doesn't seem that I can come up with any good English translation of "私は彼がきっと試験に合格すると確信を持てなくなった", I would just try to elaborate what this Japanese sentence sounds to me.

First, the "～と確信…" structure gives us an impression of "the conviction that goes, '(some direct exerption),'" whereas the "～との確信…" and "～という確信…"　gives an impression of "the conviction that (some indirect exerption)".  Given that, with the above Japanese sentence, the writer apparently seem to mean that he/she once had the conviction that he would surely pass the exam, but now the writer finds no good reason, no matter how hard he tries, to keep having the exact same conviction, maybe because the writher later found some counterevidence or found some evidence that once seemed valid no longer valid.

I hope this makes more sense this time...


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## Starfrown

Well, the issue of collocation is not my major concern. I am not a native speaker of Japanese, so it is difficult for me to choose the correct verb all the time. There is nothing wrong with saying "lose the conviction that..." or "lose confidence" in English, so I tried to extend it to Japanese.  Let's just forget all about "ushinatta."  I'll use Akimura's "motenaku natta" from now on.
 
I am concerned only with the use of adverbial "to."
 
Akimura, your earlier translation:
 
"I could no longer ha*ve* a confidence that went, 'He will surely pass the exam.'"
 

was perfectly understandable.  Although we generally don't use forms of "to go" quotatively with abstract concepts like "confidence," you conveyed the literal meaning of the Japanese sentence well.
 
My problem is that I am seeing a conflict among several posts in this thread, and am having trouble coming to a conclusion.  It could just be my failure to understand something, so I'm going to read over them again and try to summarize my concerns.


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## akimura

Starfrown said:


> I am concerned only with the use of adverbial "to."



Okay, and I try hard to explain more grammatically than before.  This post may or may not contradict my previous posts partially, but I believe that this one is more solid and thus I would replace my any previous argument with this post.

One acceptable use of "と" is the sturucture <clause + と + verb>.  Neither "との" nor "という" can be used here.  Some examples:

*[Good]* それは叶わない と 諦める
*[Bad]* それは叶わない との 諦める or それは叶わない という 諦める 

If you want to connect a clause with a noun rather than a verb to get the <clause + (something) + noun> structure, you should use "との", or "という" where the latter generally sounds more natural because との is pretty much limited to the nouns related to hearsay, whereas という is perfectly generic.  Some examples:

*[Good]* それは叶わない という 諦め
*[Bad]* それは叶わない と 諦め or それは叶わない との 諦め

but 

*[Good]* それは叶わない との／という 言い伝え(iitsutae or _legend_) 

Therefore:

*[Bad]* それは叶わない と 諦め すら忘れる or それは叶わない との 諦め すら忘れる
*[Good]* それは叶わない という 諦め すら忘れる

So, the first possible correction is, by replacing と with という, "*それは叶わないという諦めすら忘れていたこと*".

Let me give you an alternative solution, but I have to explain one thing before that.

Here are two nominalizations of the verb "諦める":　諦め and 諦めること where only the latter has tense derivatives: the past "諦めたこと", the present progressive "諦めていること", the past progressive "諦めていたこと", etc.  Probably because the nominalizaion with こと allows you to maintain a great deal of the original verb structure 諦める, the <caluse + と + nominalized-verb phrase with こと> structure is perfectly acceptable, such as:

*[Good]*　それは叶わない と 諦めていたこと
*[Good, gramatically]*　それは叶わない と 諦めたこと

However, here is a contextual issue.  "諦めたこと" simply refers to the moment of the past fact of giving up, whereas "諦めていたこと" connotates some continuation of the state in despair.  The writer's intention was to forget the "諦め" rather than the fact of an instant giving-up.  By using "諦め" in the original sentence, I would guess that the writer wanted to connotate some continuation of the "諦め" feeling. "諦めていたこと" successfully achieves giving a sense of this continuation.

Therefore, my second resolution, by using と rather than との or という, is:　"*それは叶わないと諦めていたことすら忘れていたこと*".

Given all that, それは叶わないと諦めすら忘れていたこと is totally ungrammatical but understandable, so I wouldn't be surprised if the writer intentionally violated grammatical correctness in order to give the clause some phonetic rhythms which sometimes results in some artistic effect.

Meanwhile, すら and さえ almost means the same thing, but it sometimes if not often or always, have a nuance.  I'll get back when I come up with a good explanation.


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## Flaminius

akimura said:


> *[Bad]* それは叶わない と 諦め すら忘れる or それは叶わない との 諦め すら忘れる
> *[Good]* それは叶わない という 諦め すら忘れる



Now I know why you think the topic sentence ungrammatical, *akimura*!    Is it possible for us, however, to assume that the sentence is grammatical and think how to interpret the sentence?  I will reproduce my examples below to explain why they are grammatical and ungrammatical respectively.


> OK  私は彼がきっと試験に合格すると*確信を抱い*た。
> * 私は彼がきっと試験に合格すると*確信を失っ*た。


I my explanations below I assume that we are in agreement to treat _-to_ as quotative.  The quotative in the first sentence is basically saying that someone thinks, "Oh, yes.  He will surely pass the exam." This is amenable to the verb phrase about the same person, "be convinced."

The quoted content is the same for the second sentence.  However, this is NOT amenable to the verb phrase, "to lose one's conviction."  In other words, if someone says, "I believe he will pass the exam," then he cannot be described as, "He was lost his conviction."

Back to the topic sentence, which I reproduce below with modifications:
「叶わない」と諦めすら忘れていた

With the assumption that this is a grammatical sentence, we can expect that saying to oneself "It's not gonna come true" is amenable to "forget about giving up."  If one understands with "forget about giving up" that he did not give up, then it collides with "It's not gonna come true" and the sentence is ungrammatical.  I'd like to review the meanings of 忘れる in order to solve this seemingly contradictory condition.

忘れる is usually one's inability to access a piece of information stored in one's biological information processual device (a.k.a. brain  ).  What matters here are its derived meanings:
1. 学校に教科書を忘れた。
2. 花に水をやるのを忘れた。

Sentence 1 means that someone did not take proper care of his textbooks.  As a result, they are left in school.  Bringing them home was neglected.  Sentence 2 is more specific about what is neglected.  Someone was supposed to give water to flowers but he didn't.  忘れる can mean negligence to what one is expected to do; either by social norms or natural course of events.

This is the sense of 忘れる in the topic sentence.  It's not that the family-less guy once upon a time gave up having a family and rid his memory of giving it up.  He NEVER gave it up.  It's not that he always dreamt of having a family.  On the contrary, the sense of impossibility was so strong for him that he never felt the desire.  Since giving a plan/ideal up pre-supposes a desire to achieve it (or at least some expectation for it to come true), there is no giving up where there is no desire/expectation.  This is the sense of 諦めすら忘れていた for it to be amenable to the content of the _to_-clause.

I think this is a linguistic acrobat but this is what the author wanted to do.


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## megchan

それは叶わないと諦めすら忘れていたこと doesn't make any sense. Of course I can guess the meaning of the sentence. Did you create it by yourself?
The sentence is wrong. And so I agree with Ocham.
If I were you, I would prefer the first sentence of Ocham それは叶わないと諦め、忘れて*さえ*いた to the second sentence.


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## akimura

> Back to the topic sentence, which I reproduce below with modifications:
> 「叶わない」と諦めすら忘れていた


Flaminius-san, do you think that the following interpretation is correct?「彼」は本来孤独でいたいが、家族と称する人たちに囲まれている環境から逃れることは実質不可能であり、逃れたいという夢を叶えるのは諦めておくことを選択したが、あまりにもその夢の実現が絶望的なので、その諦めておこう、という決心自体を忘れていた、ということ。
_"He" really wants to be alone, but it is practically impossible to get out of the situation surrounded by the peolpe called the "family".  Therefore, "he" has chosen to give up the dream of being alone.  However, the dream is so out of reach that he has even forgotten his own decision that he would give up the dream._​Well, if the answer is yes overall, then, それは叶わないと諦めすら忘れていたこと is too context driven I should say. I wouldn't recommend that anyone spend too much time analyzing the original phrase gramatically, because without the context, most native Japanese speakers might jump to the conclusion that the original sentence is simply ungrammatical, and learners of Japanese would be kept confused on and on ...

If I were in the writer's place, unless I would intend to be too artistic, I would phrase: それは叶わないと諦めたことさえ忘れたこと, それは叶わないという諦めさえ忘れたこと or similar wordings so as to convey practically the same thing with gramatical sloppiness, if not errors, perfectly avoided.


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## Starfrown

As I understand it, the fundamental meaning of “to” is “with.”  With this in mind, I’ll proceed to lay out my concerns.  Also, I am going to change all final verb forms in Akimura’s examples to past for the sake of simplicity.
 



akimura said:


> *[Good]* それは叶わないと諦めた



 
I can understand this perfectly.  One might think of it as:
 
_I gave up with “it won’t come true.”  w_here “with” modifies “gave up” (This sentence is not acceptable English, but it gets the point across.)
 
We could rewrite the original as:
 
それは叶わない*と**思って*諦めた
 
_I gave up, thinking it wouldn’t come true._
 



akimura said:


> *[Good]* それは叶わない という 諦め



 
This is also easy to understand.  We can translate it as:
 
_the resignation that says it won’t come true_ (not acceptable English)
 
_the resignation that it won’t come true_ (perhaps acceptable)
 



akimura said:


> *[Bad]* それは叶わない と 諦め すら忘れた



 
You classify this as ungrammatical because you perceive the phrase “kanawanai to” to be indicating the content of the noun “akirame”; both you and Flaminius have pointed out that the use of “to” alone to indicate the content of a noun is incorrect.
 
My problem is that I don’t see why this sentence *cannot* be interpreted as:

 
_I forgot even giving up with “it won’t come true.”_  where “with” modifies “forgot”

 
That is:
 
それは叶わない*と**思って*諦め すら忘れた
 
_I forgot even giving up, thinking that it wouldn’t come true._
 
Secondly, I am having trouble reconciling the earlier example you gave with the information you presented later.  Here it is:
 
私は彼がきっと試験に合格する*と*確信*を持てなくなった*。 
 
If we try to understand this as:
 
_I could no longer hold the conviction with “He definitely will pass the test.”_
 
i.e.
 
_I could no longer hold the conviction, thinking that he would definitely pass the test._
 
It doesn’t make sense.
 
Here’s the translation that you offered:
 
_I could no longer have a confidence that went, "He will surely pass the exam."_
 
This requires us to see the phrase “kare ga kitto shiken ni goukaku suru to” as marking the content of “kakushin.”  This seems to contradict what you have shown above.  That is, that “to” alone cannot indicate the content of a noun.
 
I hope I am getting my problem across clearly.


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## Flaminius

Starfrown said:


> This requires us to see the phrase “kare ga kitto shiken ni goukaku suru to” as marking the content of “kakushin.”


No, it's not the noun alone but the verb phrase that the _to_-clause modifies even for this sentence.  The verb phrase is very difficult to indicate with Japanese script.  So let me use a transliteration before euphonic rules are applied.

[kakushin-o mot]-e-naku-nar-ta (conviction-ACCUSATIVE have-POTENTIAL-NEGATIVE-become-PAST)

become un-able to [have conviction with "He will surely pass the exam."]

where square brackets indicate the verb phrase the _to_-clause modifies.


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## megchan

Woow!! A lot of replies. The more they explain this sentence *それは叶わないと諦めすら忘れていたこと*, the more you will be confused. Because the original sentence *それは叶わないと諦めすら忘れていたこと *is *wrong*. Did you find it in a book? If so, it is the writer's mistake. すら　and　さえare almost the same meaning, you can find the slight difference in some Japanese grammar books, though. In our daily conversation, NO DIFFERENCES. And when you think about this sentence, you should skip すら and put '　、’. It means　それは叶わないと諦め、忘れていたこと. This is a perfect sentence and grammatically correct. There are a lot of exemples. They might be helpful for you, but when you forcus on this sentence, I think it is wrong. 

「家族と思ってくれていいですからね」 is a perfect sentence. And you understand this sentence completely.

*"さえ. It emphasises the preceding word? As in 'even'?"* is right. But the usage is various and how to use these words depend on the person.

When you study a foreign language, you become picky. Me, too. But sometimes it prevents you from improving your language skill. Of course it's not bad. Being picky is somtimes important. But in this case, the original sentence is not correct. And so I recommend that you should not think about only this sentence seriously. Native speakers often make mistakes.


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## Starfrown

Flaminius said:


> [kakushin-o mot]-e-naku-nar-ta (conviction-ACCUSATIVE have-POTENTIAL-NEGATIVE-become-PAST)
> 
> become un-able to [have conviction with "He will surely pass the exam."]
> 
> where square brackets indicate the verb phrase the to-clause modifies.


 
Many thanks, Flaminius.  I get it now.



megchan said:


> Did you find it in a book?


I have no idea where Zebedee found this sentence.



megchan said:


> It means　それは叶わないと諦め、忘れていたこと. This is a perfect sentence and grammatically correct.


 
So the sentence without "sura" is grammatically correct?  Flamini, Akimura, do you agree?


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## Flaminius

salutationem tibi mitto, astronubes.

Yes, "それは叶わないと諦め、忘れていたこと" is fine.  But, as you know by now, the meaning is different from what the original sentence means.


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## akimura

Starfrown said:


> So the sentence without "sura" is grammatically correct?  Flamini, Akimura, do you agree?



"それは叶わないと諦め、忘れていた" is perfectly correct.  "諦め" here is a verb, so the use of と in それは叶わないと諦め falls into the <clause + と + verb> structure which I introduced in one of my previous posts.  "諦め" in "それは叶わないと諦めすら忘れていた" is a noun, that's why I initially labeled this phrase ungrammatical.  I started to seek the possibility of its grammaticality, as Flaminius-san, from whom I have always learned a lot, believes it is grammatical.  I am still in the phase of figuring out whether that is the case.


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## akimura

Starfrown said:


> Secondly, I am having trouble reconciling the earlier example you gave with the information you presented later.  Here it is:
> 
> 私は彼がきっと試験に合格する*と*確信*を持てなくなった*。



In this example, you might want to think of "確信を持てなくなった" as a verb.  Then, "彼がきっと試験に合格する　と　確信を持てなくなった" has the <clause + と + verb＞ structure, which you've already understood very well.  Well, "確信を持つ" may not really be a verb, but what would you say to the following:

You read the note.  (read = verb )
You paid attention to the note.  (paid attention to, well, is not a verb but functions almost like a verb, or is it safe to say it's a phrasal verb.)

And, pay, attention, and to can sometimes be divided to get a sentence something like:

Attention was paid to the note.

Similarly, 確信 in 確信を持つ is essentially a noun, but we almost treat 確信を持つ almost as a phrasal verb.

I hope this helps.

Meanwhile, I would need a little more time for your first concern, Starfrown-san.


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## akimura

After writing the previous post, I think I came up with something.  Maybe "それは叶わないと諦めすら忘れていた" has a collocation problem.  "彼は試験に合格すると確信すら持てなくなった" sounds perfectly grammatical, but the topic phrase doesn't.  To make an apple-to-apple comparion possible, what about these:[Bad] それは叶う と 確信 すら 忘れた
[Bad] それは叶う と 確信 すら 失った
[Good] それは叶う と 確信 すら 持てなくなった​確信 and 持つ works very well for each other.  Sometimes 確信を持つ can be used almost like a phrasal verb.  So even the insertion of "すら" does not make the third example ungrammatical.  "確信すら忘れた" and "確信すら失った" do not sound like phrasal verbs, but "確信すら持てなくなった" does.  So, only the third example retains the <clause + と + verb> structure>.

However, 諦め and 忘れる simply does not work well for each other.  However, I came up with a good combination: i.e., 諦め and 抱く.  Therefore:[Bad] それは叶わない と 諦め すら 忘れていた
[Good] それは叶わない と 諦め すら 抱かなくなっていた​Because 諦め and 抱く works well collocation-wise, "諦め すら 抱かなくなっていた" works almost like a single verb.  So, the last sentence has the <clause + と + verb> structure.  Therefore, the usage of と, which Starfrown-san has been concerned about, is valid in the last example.

Given all that, I would say:[Better, to the writer's original intention]
それは叶わない という 諦め　すら　忘れていた
それは叶わない と 諦めたこと　すら　忘れていた

But

[Bad] それは叶わない と 諦めたこと　すら　抱かなくなっていた
(The reason being that こと and 抱く do not work right, whereas こと and 忘れる do.)​In conclusion, the analysis of structures is important, but collocation is equally important.  Well, it's really a tough part, as it's really tough for me a non-native English speaker to figure out tons of English collocation issues...

I hope this helps.


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## Starfrown

Flaminius said:


> Yes, "それは叶わないと諦め、忘れていたこと" is fine. But, as you know by now, the meaning is different from what the original sentence means.


Silly me! I just realized that this sentence, in addition to lacking “sura,” also lacks the direct object marker, so of course it would be correct.




akimura said:


> それは叶わないと諦め、忘れていた" is perfectly correct. "諦め" here is a verb, so the use of と in それは叶わないと諦め falls into the <clause + と + verb> structure which I introduced in one of my previous posts. "諦め" in "それは叶わないと諦めすら忘れていた" is a noun, that's why I initially labeled this phrase ungrammatical.


It’s interesting that you make such a sharp distinction between the 連用形 functioning as a nominal and the same form functioning verbally. The verb-derived nouns in English (the infinitive and gerund) can perform many of the functions of verbs.



akimura said:


> Similarly, 確信 in 確信を持つ is essentially a noun, but we almost treat 確信を持つ almost as a phrasal verb.
> 
> I hope this helps.


Indeed it does. 



akimura said:


> In conclusion, the analysis of structures is important, but collocation is equally important. Well, it's really a tough part, as it's really tough for me a non-native English speaker to figure out tons of English collocation issues...
> 
> I hope this helps.


Thank you very much for your patience, Akimura. It seems that collocation and the use of "sura" in the original sentence were part of the problem.


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## akimura

Starfrown said:


> It’s interesting that you make such a sharp distinction between the 連用形 functioning as a nominal and the same form functioning verbally. The verb-derived nouns in English (the infinitive and gerund) can perform many of the functions of verbs.



That's a quick and great obervation.  Probably because I am a native speaker of Japanese, I didn't give much thought on 諦め being the 連用形 of 諦める when I wrote the sentence you referred to.  And your observation reminds me of the verb-ing form, which can be either a gerund or a present participle depending on how it is used in a certain sentence.

I realized that それは叶わないと諦め、忘れていた has a similar structure to the English participial construction: Giving up [the hope] that it wouldn't come true, I've forgotten [about it].


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## Flaminius

By Hercules, have I messed it up again?

From *Starfrown*'s reference to "the 連用形 functioning as a nominal and the same form functioning verbally," I've got an idea of a change that keeps everyone in the forum happy and every morpheme in the sentence intact.

それは叶わないと諦めることすら忘れていたこと
where 諦める is unequivocally a verb that can be modified by 叶わないと.

This would obviate the complex structure I have been arguing for (the one on par with 私は彼がきっと試験に合格すると確信を持てなくなった).  忘れる stands outside the whole construction and takes it as the direct object.

Now we could have a fun time guessing whether the author or his editor was up to a linguistic acrobat or just wanted to shorten the line by three characters to fit it in the conversation bubble in a manga frame.


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## Starfrown

akimura said:


> I realized that それは叶わないと諦め、忘れていた has a similar structure to the English participial construction: Giving up [the hope] that it wouldn't come true, I've forgotten [about it].


 
"Giving up [the hope] that it wouldn't come true" ??

I thought the meaning was more like:

"I gave up [the hope] with 'it won't come true'..."  (not acceptable English)

That is: 

"[Thinking] 'it won't come true,' I gave up [the hope]..."


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## akimura

Starfrown-san, about "それは叶わないと諦め、忘れていた," you wrote:



Starfrown said:


> I thought the meaning was more like:
> 
> "I gave up [the hope] with 'it won't come true'..."  (not acceptable English)
> 
> That is:
> 
> "[Thinking] 'it won't come true,' I gave up [the hope]..."



"それは叶わない と 諦め、忘れていた" (grammatical) is different from "それは叶わない と 諦め忘れていた"(ungrammatical).  A single puctuation mark makes this big a difference.  The latter tries to use "諦め忘れる" as a single verb, which is simply not a Japanese word.  I believe that the former can be translated into:Giving up [the hope] that it wouldn't come true, I was oblivious [of it].
​"それは叶わない と 諦め、忘れていた" practically means the same thing as "それは叶わないと諦めて、忘れていた" and "それは叶わないと諦め、そして忘れていた".  Therefore, it can also be translated into:I gave up [the hope] that it wouldn't come true and (I) was oblivious [of it].
(I used "I was oblivious." (past tense) this time rather than "I've forgotten." (present-perfect), unsure whether the "past tense" + "present perfect" structure is acceptable in English.) 
​In place of "それは叶わない と 諦め忘れていた" (ungrammatical, because 諦め忘れる doesn't make sense), I would introduce a grammatical phrase "それは叶わう と 努力し続けた", which has basically the same structure <clause + と + phrasal verb> and yet it is grammatical.  And this phrase can be translate into:[Thinking] "It will come true," I kept striving.​It seems that the structure of <連用形 of a verb + 終止形 or 連体形 of a verb> is not just about the structure. It is tightly related to collocation issues.  Depending on the combination of the two verbs, the whole sentence gives you totally different structural interetations.

I hope this helps.


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## Starfrown

I'm wondering whether we are running into translation issues.

"Giving up [the hope] that it wouldn't come true..."

suggests that he hoped it wouldn't come true.  I thought the idea was that he gave up hope because he believed that it wouldn't come true.


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## akimura

Starfrown said:


> I'm wondering whether we are running into translation issues.
> 
> "Giving up [the hope] that it wouldn't come true..."
> 
> suggests that he hoped it wouldn't come true.  I thought the idea was that he gave up hope because he believed that it wouldn't come true.



You're right! My mistake.  What about this?

Giving up [with the conclusion] that it wouldn't come true, I was oblivious [of having giving up].
I gave up [with the conclusion] that it wouldn't come true and (I) was oblivious [of having giving up].


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## Starfrown

akimura said:


> You're right! My mistake. What about this?
> 
> Giving up [with the conclusion] that it wouldn't come true, I was oblivious [of having giving up].


 
"Giving up [with the conclusion] that it wouldn't come true" captures the correct meaning.

"I was oblivious [of having giving up]" sounds a bit strange to me.  I think that we would be unlikely to use "oblivious" here.  A form of "to forget" would sound much better.


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## akimura

Starfrown said:


> "Giving up [with the conclusion] that it wouldn't come true" captures the correct meaning.
> 
> "I was oblivious [of having giving up]" sounds a bit strange to me.  I think that we would be unlikely to use "oblivious" here.  A form of "to forget" would sound much better.



Okay, thank you for the correction.  Since I'm a learner of English, the difference between forgetting and being oblivious is of my interest but that's something I would need to figure out myself and ask in a different thread if I'm not sure.  In any case, I hope I've answered your questions, Starfrown-san.


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## Starfrown

Yes, I think we've pretty much gotten to the bottom of it.  Thanks


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