# Star Spangled Banner -- In Spanish



## Bienvenidos

Hola a todos,

There has been much controversy recently regarding the new Spanish version of the National Anthem, known as _Nuestro Himno. _People are going crazy over this, and they feel it is "unpatriotic" for the Star Spangled Banner to be in Spanish. Personally, I don't see what the big deal is; I love the language, and there are millions of Spanish-speakers (native and secondary) in the U.S. What are your opinions, and why do you think there has been such outrage regarding the song? 

*Bien*


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## cuchuflete

I really don't care if people want to sing it in Bulgarian, Mandarin, or Esperanto.  It's a rather difficult song to sing in 
any language, unless one has a remarkable vocal range.

The people who are upset by someone singing a song are one or more of--

xenophobic
ignorant
other not nice things.

I suppose they fear that this is yet another step, like teaching foreign languages in public schools, to undermine the 'pure mairkin' way of life, in which people dress, eat, act, and think alike.  It doesn't exist, but it's a good excuse to attack newcomers.

Don't worry. When Rush Limbaugh finishes his probation for illegal drug purchases, he will find a new enemy for those folks to get apoplectic about.  OH?  GWB doesn't believe we should sing the song in anything but English?  Pitty, pitty.  Maybe I'll go find the Spanish lyrics, so he can have an excuse to illegally wiretap me.


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## heidita

I have read about this this very morning and thought to post it, too. I personally think that it is not so important whether you sing the anthem in  English or not, as long as it is not used in any other way, but to express your love and respect for the countrywhere you live and work. 

I have understood that the Spanish version of the anthem is going to be used as a kind of protest song by the 12 million illegeal immigrants in the strike on the first of May in the States and I do think this is right out *wrong* and an insult to the American people.


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## GenJen54

I have to admit I have really mixed feelings about this. Then again, I think there is only one way the "Star Spangled Banner" should be sung, which is the way it was intended; straightforward and with reverence.

Hypocritical, I know, given I believe people shoud have the right to burn our flag as a means of expression. 

I suppose my being related (9th generation down) to Francis Scott Key has something to do with it.  

I cannot stand it that rock and pop stars have "karaoke-ized" the anthem to death. I cannot stand it that every time I go to a ball game I have to hear whatever singer is there sounding like they want to audition for "American Idol." It is an anthem, not a song to be re-configured and re-arranged to everyone's liking. It's not jazz, it's not country, it's not hip-hop, it's an ANTHEM, and should be sung in a way that respects its history.

Of course, this country is all about freedom - especially freedom of expression.  Telling people they cannot sing it a certain way goes against what I believe in.  However, there are some symbols - the anthem among them - that to me should remain sacred.

The fact that it is now being sung in Spanish does not bother me all that much in principal, and I am very pro-immigration.

However, if people coming into our country do so because _*they want to be a part of our country*_, shouldn't they adopt the anthem we already have instead of making one up on their own?  I mean, to me, it's a package deal.


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## Bienvenidos

I agree with a lot of the points you have made, Jen. Of course when a person enters the U.S., be it legally or illegally, I believe it is their responsibility to make an effort to learn the language. No disrespect, but nobody wants to go to a fast food restaurant and be stuck in the drive-thru for half an hour because the cashier doesn't know what a "number seven without mayonaisse" is. I also don't think its right to say immigrants take jobs Americans won't do. Here's how I see it: as an American who has taught himself Spanish, I get excited when these kinds of things happen. It interests me to see what the Spanish interpretation of an American classic would be. I learn from these things, and I belive others do too. And to that I say "long live the culture of the USA", because, as I and many others have said over and over again, we are a nation built on immigration. I suppose that people will have to be careful when using this new anthem; i.e. it would be better to sing both versions of the anthem at a Spanish gathering, to show respect for the original piece.

*Bien*


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## Residente Calle 13

DISCLAIMER: I don't like the anthem in any language. I'm one of those folks who would like it changed.

Objecting to it because it's in Spanish or has rap...Well, American has a lot of Spanish now (30 million people worth) and it has a lot of rap. Hendrix did it in Rock and Roll because America has Rock and Roll. I think it's a big complement to the guy who scribbled down this poem almost 100 years ago, and the guys who wrote the melody to "To Anacreon in Heaven" that so many people want to "redo" it (including Francis Scott Key). 

I guess if a song is really good or means something you get a lot of *covers*. If it's really mediocre or meaningless then it gets forgotten forever. I think, in the end, that's what this is about. You don't do covers of songs you don't like or that mean nothing to you and in the end an anthem is a song.

But covers really drive some people crazy. I don't even like when some artists sample some music...(I feel I'm getting off-topic).


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## danielfranco

Very many mixed feelings about this... All I want to say is that the "Star-Spangled Banner" is a song that makes me feel a bit emotional. As a matter of fact, I just played my bootleg copy of what I consider the best pop live rendition ever, the Whitney Huston at the opening ceremony of the Olympic games version, so right now I'm a bit choked up and bright-eyed. I hope that the Spanish version does this to me, also. We'll see.


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## lablady

I don't think the idea of singing the national anthem in Spanish would receive this much attention if we weren't already currently embroiled in the controversy over illegal immigration. People on both sides are already worked up and this is just one more thing for each side to try to use to their advantage. I'm not starting another immigration argument. We already have threads about that.

I may be wrong, but at national events, don't most countries only sing their national anthem in the original language? It's a patriotic symbol of that country, frequently tied to history. Most anthems that I've seen translated to English have been done so that non-native speakers could understand what it meant and not for the purpose of singing it in English (_disclaimer_: this statement is based on _very_ limited experience). If the roles were reversed, would other countries be upset if 'Merkins came to their lands and insisted their national anthem be sung in English? Or are other lands not as proprietary about their national symbols?

Unfortunately, I only have major events (such as the Olympics) on which to base this. I don't know if musical artists from other lands also get creative with their national anthem.

In my opinion, it all comes down to the intention of the singer. If they are singing the national anthem _as a show of patriotism_ to the nation whose anthem it is, I don't mind if they sing it in another language or another style. I might even be impressed they chose to honor the song in this way (unless they happen to pick a type of music I'm not fond of  ). But if they are using another language or style as an attempt to breed contention, I'd rather they chose another means to express their opinion.

And I agree it's a difficult song to sing. Playing it in a different key would help a little, at least for my limited vocal range.  But I digress....


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## Residente Calle 13

Bienvenidos said:
			
		

> I suppose that people will have to be careful when using this new anthem; i.e. it would be better to sing both versions of the anthem at a Spanish gathering, to show respect for the original piece.



I don't think that now there are *two *versions of the _Star-Spangled Banner_, one in English and one in Spanish, like they have in Canada. This recording is just that; a recording. A group of artists decided to get together and cover that song for whatever reason. 

We still have just *one *anthem in the US and it's the poem in English written by Francis Scott Key to the music of _To Anacreon in Heaven_ (inaccurately described as an English pub song).


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## Residente Calle 13

lablady said:
			
		

> I may be wrong, but at national events, don't most countries only sing their national anthem in the original language? It's a patriotic symbol of that country, frequently tied to history. Most anthems that I've seen translated to English have been done so that non-native speakers could understand what it meant and not for the purpose of singing it in English (_disclaimer_: this statement is based on _very_ limited experience). If the roles were reversed, would other countries be upset if merkins came to their lands and insisted their national anthem be sung in English? Or are other lands not as proprietary about their national symbols?



The Canadians sing their anthem in both languages, I think. 

The original "O Canada" was written in French. So I guess most people in Canada either sing or only really understand the translation. Can someone from Canada confirm this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oh_Canada

Of course, they have millions of English speakers in Canada so sticking to the original would not make much sense.


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## danielfranco

lablady said:
			
		

> I may be wrong, but at national events, don't most countries only sing their national anthem in the original language? It's a patriotic symbol of that country, frequently tied to history. Most anthems that I've seen translated to English have been done so that non-native speakers could understand what it meant and not for the purpose of singing it in English (_disclaimer_: this statement is based on _very_ limited experience). If the roles were reversed, would other countries be upset if merkins came to their lands and insisted their national anthem be sung in English? Or are other lands not as proprietary about their national symbols?



That's a really good observation. I can imagine president Fox collapsing from a stroke brought upon by the shock of Americans singing "Mexicans, when the cry for war arises, assemble the iron-mongery of war and the horse reins..."



> And I agree it's a difficult song to sing. Playing it in a different key would help a little, at least for my limited vocal range.



And I don't think this helps people like me, with no singing ability... I've tried playing it a full fifth lower, and still have to strangle myself to reach the high notes in "... of the land of the free-...argh!"


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## fenixpollo

Lab Lady, the correct spelling of the Unitedstatesian nationality is *'Merkin*.  A _merkin_ is a toupée for the you-know-what.  (look it up.)  Just trying to improve communication here.  

As I understand it, the new version of the national anthem *is a bilingual version*, not Spanish-only.

On the one hand, I am in agreement with everyone else that the anthem in Spanish, or any language, is no big deal.    In fact, it is a good thing because it increases understanding of the U.S.

On another hand, I'd like to point out that the song include lyrics that, at this moment in the heated immigration debate, will only cause conservative tempers to flare. 





			
				Associated Press said:
			
		

> A remix to be released in June will contain several lines in English that condemn U.S. immigration laws. Among them: "These kids have no parents, cause all of these mean laws ... let's not start a war with all these hard workers, they can't help where they were born."


On the third hand, I doubt that anyone who is actually opposed to the anthem in Spanish has even heard it or knows anything about it.  It's just a knee-jerk reaction of closed-minded people who mistake xenophobia for patriotism.


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## Residente Calle 13

heidita said:
			
		

> I have understood that the Spanish version of the anthem is going to be used as a kind of protest song by the 12 million illegeal immigrants in the strike on the first of May in the States and I do think this is right out *wrong* and an insult to the American people.



People in this country fly American flags and/or _modified versions_ of it in protests all the time here. How is *that *any different? How is that any different than the modified Spanish flag with the bull on it that I see in football matches?

I suppose some Americans feel "insulted" but others aren't really.


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## heidita

Fenix, the Spanish version of the anthem was published today in a Spanish nationwide newspaper and had only the beginning line in English, the rest was Spanish only.

I do oppose this spanish version as I have mentioned before because it hasn't been translated to give other Spanish speakers a deeper insight into the American way of life or as you say "to increase understanding of the US", but to use it as a kind of  protest-song  against the immigration law.


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## Residente Calle 13

heidita said:
			
		

> Fenix, the Spanish version of the anthem was published today in a Spanish nationwide newspaper and had only the beginning line in English, the rest was Spanish only.
> 
> I do oppose this spanish version as I have mentioned before because it hasn't been translated to give other Spanish speakers a deeper insight into the American way of life or as you say "to increase understanding of the US", but to use it as a kind of  protest-song  against the immigration law.



It did give *me *some insight. Until this day I sang "For the land of the free" when it should be "O'er the land of the free." Again, I don't see what's wrong with having protest songs. This country started out as one big protest.


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## Eloisa Giseburt

I am just wondering if all those people would like their own anthem sang in English I don't think so. For me it is disrespectful! The anthem is one of the national symbols everywhere! and it should not be modified.


P.S. I am Mexican .


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## Residente Calle 13

Eloisa Giseburt said:
			
		

> I am just wondering if all those people would like their own anthem sang in English I don't think so. For me it is disrespectful!
> 
> 
> P.S. I am  Mexican .



Which people? Do you mean the protestors? I think 99% would like the Star Spangled Banner to become their national anthem. They want to be legal and if possible American as soon as possible. That's what it's all about, in the end.


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## Eloisa Giseburt

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> Which people? Do you mean the protestors? I think 99% would like the Star Spangled Banner to become their national anthem. They want to be legal and if possible American as soon as possible. That's what it's all about, in the end.


 

No, I mean the American people. If the protestors want to be legal and be part of the USA they have to learn the language and adapt to the new country and culture.


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## heidita

Residente Wonderful, they want the song to become THEIR  national anthem and what do they do? translate it... I think the first thing to do if you want to live in a foreign country and become part of it, is to adapt and not go on doing everything your own way.

Eloisa, very brave...


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## Residente Calle 13

Well, Heidita, as far as I know, the protesters did not translate the anthem; a bunch of singers did. Many of those protesters do speak quite a bit of English and are quite willing to be become a part of this country. In fact, they really, really, want to be a part of this country and are willing to risk their jobs in order to be able to remain here and live just like everybody else who came here. I think it's a mistake to think that this protest song was written by the people protesting. Those artists who recorded that song sort of just appointed themselves.

You know...you can't win. When the protesters waved the Mexican flag, they were unpatriotic, when a bunch of people sympathic to the cause choose a version of the national anthem to be the soundtrack to the cause of this protest, it's unpatriotic. I wonder if the conservatives would object to the national anthem sung in English with a Mexican accent. 


I think this song is very American and this version especially. Protests are very American and so is taking an idea and adding a new twist to it. The sad thing is that the song sounds as awkard in Spanish/English as it does in the original English.


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## Residente Calle 13

Eloisa Giseburt said:
			
		

> No, I mean the American people. If the protestors want to be legal and be part of the USA they have to learn the language and adapt to the new country and culture.



I don't see how singing a song originally in English in Spanish stops people from becoming American in any way. The song is not in Spanish because immigrants who come here don't learn English. Some haven't learn English yet but let me tell you that millions go to great lengths to learn English and I think it's a good idea that they do.

To me, the song doesn't say "I'll sing this in Spanish because I don't want to learn English." To me, it says "I feel this song so much I will even sing it in my native language."

Coincidently, that's the native language of about ten percent of this country and of the majority of the island of Manhattan and other places in the US at this very minute.

Lots of songs that were in English are done in Spanish and vice versa in order to reach a wider audience. I don't see how this is different.


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## cuchuflete

Before anyone gets too choked up about tinkering with an age-old tradition, please note a few facts that provide context.

Context, remember, is the bedrock on which useful discussion in the ancient and noble world of WordReference is founded.

1- This song has not been the national anthem for very long.
Somebody who cares about precision in this discussion could look that up in wikipedia or some other nice source and verify that it has been the official tune of these United States for about 77 years, give or take, and that's about one third the age of the country.

2- This nation has no national language, by law.

3- Other honored traditions, such as the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag, have been tinkered with by the Congress and President--one Dwight David Eisenhower.  They stuck the G word into it when I was in elementary school.  That had no effect whatsover on my feelings of affection for my country, or for its flag.  But it was a significant change to another old tradition.

4- American English continues apace in its adoption of foreign words.  Why not a few stanzas more?   How could we survive without pizza?  That's not a 'merkin word.  It's purloined, pilferred and.....delicious!

5- NASCAR, that beer-drinking circuit with car engine and collision sounds as background music, has supplanted baseball as the 'great 'merkin passtime'.  Another tradition modified.


A majority that is so unsettled and, pardon me Elvis, All Shook Up, by a few folks singing a song with some new words...presumably without much change to the original ideas... shows signs that a clinical psychologist might find indicative of a mild persecution complex, or some other insecurity.  This is not airplanes crashing into the Pentagon and the Twin Towers...its people singing a song.

Sorry for the broad perspective.  The battle is much more intense if we limit our view to a simple (and wrong) question such as, "Is this patriotic?"


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## Pivra

Yo la ha escuchado ayer. La canción es muy linda. Me gusta.
I listened to it in the internet. Its really nice and modern. Lots of MTV singers sang it I guess. I like the song.


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## maxiogee

Do the First Nations see themselves identified personally in the words 
"the land of the free and the home of the brave", I wonder?
The land was free in their time, and so were they. They were also much braver than those who opposed them and stole the 'free' land.

I wonder would there be a translation of the anthem into any of their languages?


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## Residente Calle 13

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Before anyone gets too choked up about tinkering with an age-old tradition, please note a few facts that provide context.



And you can add the US Constitution and the US flag to that list.

But I don't think that's what provokes the ire. I think the big problem is that many people believe these very _*profane *_things are _*sacred*_. I think it borders on idolatry. I think the sacred has its appropriate realm and that the civic and political realm is another. We're not Egyptian or Roman or Taliban. We're Americans. Or at least I thought.


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## Whisky con ron

Has anyone found the lyrics yet? I've heard it in the Urban what'sit site, and for what I can hear they are very respectful words of love for the _"sacred" _flag. How can this be insulting is beyond me...

And face it, the USA is more latino than "English", so put up with it and do yourself a favour and learn the language (I mean Spanish).

Adioscito.


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## Bienvenidos

There have actually been several translation attempts....even before the song officially became the national anthem. 

Thanks for the info, cuchu! 

I'm going to have to find the song and listen to it.

*Bien*


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## orion

Whisky con ron said:
			
		

> Has anyone found the lyrics yet? I've heard it in the Urban what'sit site, and for what I can hear they are very respectful words of love for the _"sacred" _flag. How can this be insulting is beyond me..


I agree with that.



			
				Whisky con ron said:
			
		

> And face it, the USA is more latino than "English",


Not sure about that, though. Maybe in the future...

Regarding controversial "alternative" versions of national anthems... in the UK we had something similar happen here almost 30(!) years ago (before I was born )... remember the Sex Pistols? 

These days I don't think anyone here would care about an altered version of the national anthem (which most people think is terrible anyway)... so it's interesting that in the US the anthem is still regarded (by some, at least) as something that is almost sacred...


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## heidita

Whisky con ron said:
			
		

> Has anyone found the lyrics yet? I've heard it in the Urban what'sit site, and for what I can hear they are very respectful words of love for the _"sacred" _flag. How can this be insulting is beyond me...
> 
> And face it, the USA is more latino than "English", so put up with it and do yourself a favour and learn the language (I mean Spanish).
> 
> Adioscito.


 
I have stated several times already that the fact that it is sung in Spanish is not so important but the USE the immigrants are making of it, as it is supposed to be a protest against the immigration law.

And then we might just as well soon speak German on Mallorca as the population in summer is mainly German. 

How you can say, that Americans need to learn Spanish is beyond ME....
unless you mean that for their own benefit, like I have learned English. but they live in their country and the immigrants are the others. The different language here is spanish.

As I was saying, let's impose German on Mallorca, as it is the most spoken language anyway.


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## Residente Calle 13

heidita said:
			
		

> I have stated several times already that the fact that it is sung in Spanish is not so important but the USE the immigrants are making of it, as it is supposed to be a protest against the immigration law.
> 
> And then we might just as well soon speak German on Mallorca as the population in summer is mainly German.
> 
> How you can say, that Americans need to learn Spanish is beyond ME....
> unless you mean that for their own benefit, like I have learned English. but they live in their country and the immigrants are the others. The different language here is spanish.
> 
> As I was saying, let's impose German on Mallorca, as it is the most spoken language anyway.


Heidita, I don't see anybody imposing anything on anybody. It's a version of the national anthem in Spanish and English. Is it being used as a protest song? --I don't know. That's the idea behind it, yes, but I don't think it was done upon request. What millions of illegal immigrants in the US want is *papers *not songs. 

I think it's a good idea for everyone to learn English in the US and it's also a good idea to learn Spanish in some places in the US. But this song is not about that at all. I think you are mixing one thing with the other.

This is *NOT *a song immigrants wrote to protest their situation.
This is *NOT *a song immigrants even requested.
This is *NOT *a song about learning, not learning or imposing a language.

If a group of artists decided to write a song about German people who lived in Spain that does not mean that you, Heidita, wrote that song, believe in what it says, or are refusing or encouraging the learning of any particular language. *You can't help it if people decide to write a song for you that you didn't ask for in the first place.*

As an aside, many illegal immigrants don't even agree with the protest for many reasons.




Es una canción. Al que no le gusta que no la compre.


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## heidita

Residente, I was not answering your post but the one Whisky..wrote, telling the Americans to learn spanish.

That's why I was talking about Spaniards learning German, as German  is the most spoken language in Mallorca.


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## Chaska Ñawi

I see several lines of argument, which sometimes seem to run parallel instead of intersecting.

ResidenteCalle, you were bang on the money when you said that "I think it borders on idolatry. I think the sacred has its appropriate realm and that the civic and political realm is another."  The importance of an anthem should be in its message or associations, not the language in which these are conveyed.  We are discussing political institutions, created quite recently by human beings, not rewriting the bible (which has been done far more frequently).

Re anthem-as-protest.  I can't think of a more suitable occasion to sing a national anthem than when a nation is not living up to the ideals upon which it was founded.  

Re the question about Canada's anthem.  We rewrite our anthem every twenty years or so (go figure!) - you get 3 generations of people singing 3 different versions.  The kids are taught to sing the current version in both English and French, and once they're too cool to sing any more, they still hear it in both languages (sometimes in the same arrangement) over the school announcements.  That said, most people sing it in their mother tongue, and a lot of Quebecois refuse to sing it at all.

I must admit to being completely bemused by all the hoo-ha over both the translation and protest issues south of the border (edit:  in respect to the anthem).  Perhaps clarification will come as this thread continues.


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## Just_Wil

Me imagino que a los estadounidenses les "chocó" escuchar su himno en español y personalmente lo entiendo, yo me sentiría incómodo de escuchar mi himno patrio cantado en otro idioma, no porque me desagraden otras lenguas, sino que estamos hablando de el "himno nacional", una canción casi "sagrada" en todas las naciones del mundo. Versiones "alternativas" son impensables para estos temas. Claro, pienso que la intención de quienes versionaron el tema era nada más mostrar patriotismo por la patria en la que viven...no creo que quieran que los Estados Unidos la adopte como "Lado B" de el himno oficial.


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## heidita

Pimpy says that the immigrants want to show patriotism to the nation they live in , but I do think that it is quite the opposite. If this had been the case, why come out with it now? Just for the 1st of May celebration and the big strike announced? 

The version I have seen in the Spanish publication was in Spanish only, except the first line, but then a forer mentioned, that a bilingual version is coming out in June, where they mix all political stuff with the anthem. If that is showing your respect and love of the country you live in ....


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## Just_Wil

Respeto lo que dice Heidita y tiene mucho de cierto, demasiado, diría yo. Simplemente le estaba buscando el "lado amable". Pero la verdad es que todo se ve "muy conveniente" con lo de la celebración del día del trabajo y la gran huelga.
Costa Rica soporta una carga de inmigración peor que la de Estados Unidos y me chocaría que nuestros "invitados" salieran con sus versiones del himno nacional, sea con el fin que sea y aunque hayan sido dos "artistas" los de la idea, no deberían hacerlo.


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## Whisky con ron

heidita said:
			
		

> How you can say, that Americans need to learn Spanish is beyond ME....
> unless you mean that for their own benefit, like I have learned English.


 
Indeed that's what I meant. Because the lyrics of the "nuestro himno" song are so much of pride and love for their country (the USA), that the only explanation I can find for their reaction is ignorance. Maybe they think the Latinos are taking the mickey with their anthem, something like "look at those idiot gringos, we'll take their money and rape their women" or whatever, when in fact they are saying they love the country (a country that is THEIRS as well...



			
				heidita said:
			
		

> ... but they live in their country and the immigrants are the others. The different language here is spanish.


 
I am not sure I agree with that.

About German being spoken in Mallorca, I think that's a great idea! No, seriously, I do... 

Feliz día del trabajador a todos!


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## Residente Calle 13

heidita said:
			
		

> Residente, I was not answering your post but the one Whisky..wrote, telling the Americans to learn spanish.



I know Heidita but I like talking to you so much that I answered you anyway.

Un abrazo desde NYC.


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## Residente Calle 13

Pimp_of_the_pimps said:
			
		

> ...sea con el fin que sea y aunque hayan sido dos "artistas" los de la idea, no deberían hacerlo.



Creo que esa opinión es válida y muchos de los inmigrantes ilegales que van a participar en la huelga mañana están de acuerdo contigo. No creo que se pueda decir que por un lado están los norteaméricanos y por el otro los inmigrantes ilegales en este tema. Y es que es una canción...pa' lo' gu'to lo' colore' dicen en Santo Domingo.


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## fenixpollo

Again, heidita, you appear to be confused about what is obligatory for the citizens and residents of the U.S.  Your suggestion that German should become the standard language during summer in Mallorca may be a good idea, but you keep saying Spanish, English or German are or should be "imposed".  Nobody is forcing English-speaking Americans to take Spanish or any other second language -- which is unfortunate, because most Americans miss out on the windows to the world that are opened by speaking a second language.  No Americans are forced to speak any one language, nor are they forced to sing the national anthem in one language or another.  *There is no official language of the U.S.*  As every American is fond of saying, "It's a free country."   





			
				heidita said:
			
		

> ...where they mix all political stuff with the anthem. If that is showing your respect and love of the country you live in ....


 "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism." -- Thomas Jefferson


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## nycphotography

If it was meant as a new version of the anthem to be sung by latinos as legitimate form of respect, then I would say it was misplaced. Imagine I go/move to, oh... say Germany. I may or may not manage to learn much German, but if I do choose to learn the national anthem, I really should learn it in German. I can translate it for my understanding, but really, its the GERMAN national anthem after all.

If it were some artistic license taken with it for the amusement and entertainment of others, then so be it.  No big deal.  This country survived Jimi Hendrix meddling with the Anthem (outlived him in fact).  I'm sure it will survive any others as well.  It seems to have originated in this context, and so be it, in which case, fine.  Have and enjoy.



In this context, it is being sung in spanish as a form of protest. This is similar to burning a flag in protest.

It is of course disrectful. Duh. I don't recall many very protests (like one in fact) where the outrages protesters were chanting respectfully about the actual issues.

Only a complete idiot would take offense on the grounds that it's disrespectful. Wow. You (the hypothetically offended idiot) got that part. Too bad you lack the capacity to understand its just some stupid form of protest, which can now safely be ignored (since actual acts of protest seldom convey any real information with regard to any actual issues at hand).


----------



## Daniel4802

I've only found a mixture of Spanish and English for the lyrics. I'm not that great at translating Spanish to English. Perhaps someone here could translate the Spanish to English for me, please? 


> Nuestro Himno
> 
> Oh say can you see, a la luz de la aurora/Lo que tanto aclamamos la noche al caer? Sus estrellas, sus franjas flotaban ayer/En el fiero combate en senal de victoria,/Fulgor de lucha, al paso de la libertada,/Por la noche decian: “Se va defendiendo!”
> 
> Coro: Oh, decid! Despliega aun su hermosura estrellada,/Sobre tierra de libres, la bandera sagrada?


 
Here is a link to the Lyrics in English and Spanish.

*Mod Edit:* Hello, Daniel! Welcome to the Forums. Please note, no more than four lines of material are allowed in single posts as part of our compliance with U.S. Fair Use standards.


----------



## Residente Calle 13

nycphotography said:
			
		

> If it was meant as a new version of the anthem to be sung by latinos as legitimate form of respect, then I would say it was misplaced.



It might have been *meant *for that but I don't think Latinos requested a song be translated for them. If someone can point to a specific petition or something like that, I would be glad to see it. What I hear is that many Latinos think it is in poor taste, insulting, and a bad idea, that many think is no big deal, and that others still think it's the best thing since sliced bread. Just like the rest of the country.



			
				nycphotography said:
			
		

> If it were some artistic license taken with it for the amusement and entertainment of others, then so be it.  No big deal.



I don't think it was written just for kicks either.

Sometimes causes have un-official anthems. "We Shall Overcome" is generally accepted by many as the "anthem" of the Civil Rights movement. I don't think people "requested" it but they have grown to accept it. It's the song, out of many, one most identifies with that movement. I don't think the song we are talking about has reached that stage yet. It's to be seen.

If I decided to record a song with the purpose of protesting the price of a subway fare in NYC that doesn't mean that it automatically becomes our city's anthem, that you or anybody else likes the anthem in NYC, that you requested it, or that even if you agree two dollars is too much to pay to ride the subway that you think it's a good idea or in good taste. You may even agree with my cause and think the song is insulting and it just might be.


----------



## CitoyenDuMonde

I have several comments to make regarding this subject. I think its a lack of respect to sing any national anthem in another language than its original in this case english. We are talking about a countries anthem which is a symbol of honor and pride. 

Another low blow to the USA is it was deliberately done for the sole purpose of 1st of May strike. This isn't a good sign for undocumented workers wanting to legalize their status. Besides, you have many immigrants in particular hispanics living in the USA for over twenty years and can speak english to save their life every immigrants that come here have learned the language or at least try to. From my observation the latino community want to create their respective country within the USA. 

It is a sign of disrespect and only throwing flame into the fire. But I also think undocumented workers shouldn't be labelled as criminals neither. 

Overall I see it as a sign of disrespect to seeing the US national anthem in spanish.   

C'est dommage...


----------



## fenixpollo

Citoyen said:
			
		

> Another low blow to the USA is it was deliberately done for the sole purpose of 1st of May strike.


 This is just your totally unproven assumption. My own assumption is that it wasn't written in between the first demonstrations against HB 4437 and now, and that its release wasn't timed for May 1st... it just happens to be coming out around the same time. Or perhaps it's been around for a while, but nobody cared until immigrant groups started agitating for their rights. I can't prove either of those guesses, therefore I'm not passing them off as fact. 





			
				CitoyenDuMonde said:
			
		

> I think it's a lack of respect to sing any national anthem in another language than its original -- in this case, English. We are talking about a country's anthem, which is a symbol of honor and pride.


 Any national anthem? What are your thoughts about Chaska Ñawi's post above about "Oh, Canada"?

Can you not feel even _more_ pride in your country when people who don't even speak your language want to sing its praises?

It seems a shame to me that such a bad song as the Star Spangled Banner has become sacrosanct, and that to touch it or change it would be considered blasphemous by America's "patriots".


----------



## Bastoune

Don't get me started on the Spanish anthem thing. 

How about "La Marseillaise" in Arabic now? Or "God save the Queen" in Urdu or Hindi?

Someone made mention on CBS (typical ignorant twit) about how "O CANADA"; is in French, English, and bi-lingual (three versions). But they forget that the nation of Canada was founded bi-lingual and the anthem was written in French first, translated (poorly) into English, then mixed for the bi-lingual version.

It's comparing apples and oranges. 

The Italians, Koreans, Chinese, Russians, Germans, Polish, and others don't do this crap. Only the Hispanics. I am sick and tired of them imposing their language and culture upon everyone.

There's nothing wrong with Spanish, nothing wrong with the Hispanic cultures. But when I lived in Germany, Italy and the U.K., I learned the language and didn't make everyone speak French to me and make them into Québécois and insist on services in French!

I speak 6 languages, learned them no problem. A person who lives 10 years in the U.S. and STILL can't speak English is just lazy. No excuses.

As a Canadian dual citizen, it annoys me when I see these illegals in the U.S. do this. 

Honestly, it's annoying to the people who play by the rules. Of course, those who are illegal will never make it very far, and that is a punishment, but come on. Deal with it. 

I speak Spanish fluently but refuse to do so for people who come up to me and just expect me to speak it to them w/o asking if I speak it. It's just like when in Europe or Québec, if an American or someone does that to me and expects me to speak English, I don't speak back. I am more than willing to help someone making an effort but not someone who just demands it. 

That's "gratitude" to the country giving to the illegals -- I won't learn your language, and I'll impose my culture on you.

*Aprendan inglés o regresen a su país!*


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## CitoyenDuMonde

I am very angry I post a great rebuttal to Felixpollo but the post didnt go thru..oh well!!!!!!!!!

Briefly, I agree that neither you and I know the motives behind of singing the national anthem in spanish. Creo que es una bofetada en la cara.


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## Daniel4802

Personally I think it was a stunt to promote illegal immigration. Particularly when I saw an interview with Adam Kidron, president of Urban Box Office, and he echoed the politically correct term of "migrant worker" instead of illegal immigrants and offered support for illegal immigration. 

If non-native _legal_ immigrants did this in Mexico, they would be arrested and spend a few years in jail.

I don't have a problem if "The Star-Spangled Banner" was simply translated to Spanish; but I am somewhat displeased that the song writer butchered the anthem to promote the agenda of illegal immigration.


----------



## GenJen54

*MOD NOTE: *As this thread gains momentum - perhaps because of today's events - it is becoming increasingly warm in tone. That is fine. Drifting off-topic is not. 

May I remind everyone to please be respectful of others' feelings and thoughts on the issue, and do not post anything that does not relate to the question at hand. 

Thank you.


----------



## Bienvenidos

As Daniel4082 has posted the lyrics, they seem extremely respectful towards the original anthem. A lot of the phrases are very similar, and thus once again, I wish the population in general would analyze the integrity of the situation before blowing it out of proportion. Then again, easier said than done, right.

 

*Bien*


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## Residente Calle 13

Bienvenidos said:
			
		

> As Daniel4082 has posted the lyrics, they seem extremely respectful towards the original anthem. A lot of the phrases are very similar, and thus once again, I wish the population in general would analyze the integrity of the situation before blowing it out of proportion. Then again, easier said than done, right.
> 
> 
> 
> *Bien*


I don't think it matters how respectful they are. People with an agenda are going to call it blashphemy for political reasons.


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## ElaineG

One of the finest American traditions is freedom of speech and the concomitant right to petition the government for redress of grievances.
A protest song based on the national anthem is core political speech, and I'm proud as an American to support the rights of any one to express themselves in that manner.

Let's not get too worked up about the national anthem, either. It's a miserable song that no one can sing and that glorifies war. Does it have anything to do with what I think of as uniquely, valuably or wonderfully American? No more so, than I expect, "God Save the Queen" embodies what it means to be British.

Moreover, nothing is more shallow and more typical of our mass media driven society than to reduce the complex issues of immigration, and the very real rights and obligations that are being struggled with on (pardon the unintentional pun) both sides of the fence, to a song.

Finally, don't forget that my Colombian cleaning lady didn't write this song. The Turkish guy who delivers my lunch every day didn't write this song. The Mexican guys who cook my lunch every day didn't write this song. The African guys selling fake pocketbooks on the corner right now didn't write this song. The Middle Eastern cab driver who drove me to work this morning didn't write this song, nor did the Russian who will drive me home tonight. My Dominican superintendent didn't write the song, and neither did the Polish and Irish guys who work for him doing odd jobs.

You know who wrote this song?: 





> The idea for the translation came from British music executive Adam Kidron, as a show of support to Hispanic immigrants in the United States. Kidron has said that the song also will be featured on the album _Somos Americanos_, which will sell for US$10, of which $1 will go to the National Capital Immigration Coalition, a Washington, D.C.-based group.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuestro_Himno
Ask yourself what happens to the other 9$? Then, ask yourself why the media is focusing on this song, rather than an unprecedented rising up by the least powerful members of our society. This song thing is a cheap distraction, and like Swift Boats, and interns, and whatever else you like, the real tragedy is that Americans would rather think about things like this than take a hard look at the real issues.

And as a last measure, if you are American, ask yourself where your family would be if the restrictive immigration policies that have been proposed were in place a hundred years ago. I know my great-grandparents would have, and did, do anything possible to get out of Europe. At that time you didn't need a visa, you just needed to not be an epileptic, a beggar, an anarchist or a carrier of contagious diseases. But I tend to think that if the choice was between coming here illegally, and continuing to starve in between pogroms in the shtetls of Eastern Europe, they would have come illegally. I expect yours would have too.


----------



## Bienvenidos

ElaineG said:
			
		

> Finally, don't forget that my Columbian cleaning lady didn't write this song. The Turkish guy who delivers my lunch every day didn't write this song. The Mexican guys who cook my lunch every day didn't write this song. The African guys selling fake pocketbooks on the corner right now didn't write this song. The Middle Eastern cab driver who drove me to work this morning didn't write this song, nor did the Russian who will drive me home tonight. My Dominican superintendent didn't write the song, and neither did the Polish and Irish guys who work for him doing odd jobs..


 
Well said, Elaine.   This is the exact concept that most people don't understand, not only within this specific issue, but within all issues of race and ethnicity. For example, just because one person is selling drugs in Colombia, we as a nation believe that all Colombians are drug-dealers. Just because terrorists from Saudi Arabia entered Afghanistan, the nation places the stereotype of Afghans being terrorists. 

Elaine has also made a good point about the media coverage. Once it's on TV, everyone has an opinion on it.

*Bien*


----------



## fenixpollo

The Nativist reaction is usually a knee-jerk reaction, with no consideration of the facts before an opinion is formed.  

As of today, there is *only one AP article *that has been reprinted by hundreds of media outlets, plus about five other articles written in the same vein, which means that there is basically _no information_ other than what the Associated Press has given.  And they haven't said who wrote it the song, when, or any details -- just that it has "provoked ire" and that the producer "just wanted to honor the millions of immigrants", blah, blah, blah. 

So, in the absence of truth, each side invents its own truth.  One Nativist truth is that the song was caused by the recent protests; but that can't be verified.  And while the first impression was that the lyrics have protest words mixed in, the articles available (including conservative blogs) say that the all-star remix due out this summer has some protest lyrics in it, but *not the original version*.

But, no matter what the true timing or justification of this translation, Nativists will say that _this is 'Merka -- speak English, dammit!_  How easily they forget that someone in their family was an immigrant, once.


----------



## fenixpollo

Brava, Elaine! 


			
				ElaineG said:
			
		

> Let's not get too worked up about the national anthem, either. It's a miserable song that no one can sing and that glorifies war.


 Hear, hear!


----------



## heidita

*Elaine,* I am surprised , to say the least, at several of your sentences. How can you say that nobody can sing the American anthem, when even I have heard it sung by many people and everybody seems to know the lyrics perfectly. And when was it decided that it glorifies war? What has the anthem got to do with the Bush administration?

Then you found out who actually wrote the Spanish version for the anthem...so what? What is so important about the English guy being the author, as the importance lies in  *why *and *when *the Spanish illegal immigrant population is going to sing it and USE it! The version in itself is *not* the important issue here.


----------



## heidita

Residente, coming back to your comparison of the Spanish flag with the bull on it and thinking that this is disrespectful....
My husband thinks this isn't reasonable at all, as the bull has always been a symbol for Spain. Actually the Catalans obviously put a junkie on their flag, which you can see in football matches.

I don't think there is any disrespectfulness in including a symbol of your country or area to your flag.


----------



## heidita

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> I don't think it matters how respectful they are. People with an agenda are going to call it blashphemy for political reasons.


 
Well, there you are...you just said it: it was definitely written for political reasons and not to praise the country where the immigrants work and live.


----------



## heidita

nycphotography said:
			
		

> In this context, it is being sung in spanish as a form of protest. This is similar to burning a flag in protest.
> 
> It is of course disrectful. Duh. I don't recall many very protests (like one in fact) where the outrages protesters were chanting respectfully about the actual issues.


 
I certainly agree with you here as I have stated in all my previous posts. If anybody should sing the anthem in Spanish to show the love of the country it is misplaced and as was shown today, I couldn't see any kind of loving for the country while chanting their particular and completely off topic song while protesting.


----------



## Residente Calle 13

heidita said:
			
		

> Residente, coming back to your comparison of the Spanish flag with the bull on it and thinking that this is disrespectful....
> My husband thinks this isn't reasonable at all, as the bull has always been a symbol for Spain. Actually the Catalans obviously put a junkie on their flag, which you can see in football matches.
> 
> I don't think there is any disrespectfulness in including a symbol of your country or area to your flag.


Well, you see, that's your opinion, Heidita. I think the peace symbol is a real American symbol and many Americans agree but if I stuck one on the stars and stripes some Americans will get offended.

I have seen all sorts of altered flags in football matches and I'm not going to comment on what's disrespectful about the Spanish flag or the flag of any other country. I'm going to mind my business about that. What I was trying to say is that national symbols get altered all the time and that the main problem with this song is not that it's _*an alteration*_ or that it's in Spanish. The problem, like you said, is a domestic political issue.


----------



## Residente Calle 13

heidita said:
			
		

> If anybody should sing the anthem in Spanish to show the love of the country it is misplaced and as was shown today, I couldn't see any kind of loving for the country while chanting their particular and completely off topic song while protesting.



Other than the artists who recorded it, who have you heard sing the song this thread is about?


----------



## heidita

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> Other than the artists who recorded it, who have you heard sing the song this thread is about?


 
On the news today . It was all over the news in Spain, as immigration is also a big issue in Spain.


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## Residente Calle 13

heidita said:
			
		

> On the news today . It was all over the news in Spain, as immigration is also a big issue in Spain.



Really? Nobody in my rally sang it or even knew it. What you saw in the news today must have been the really smart immigrants who learnt that new song which *just *came out by heart by now. Wow!

I haven't heard these incredibly gifted people on the US media either but the night is young.


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## Just_Wil

Me parece cierto eso de que el que ha vivido en los Estados Unidos por 5, 10, 12 años y no hable inglés, simplemente da muestras de haraganería. Si yo voy a Europa, me prepararé para al menos saber como ordenar una comida en el idioma local, al contrario de algunos casos de extranjeros que vienen a mi país y esperan que todos sepamos inglés. 
Trabajo en un negocio en el que tengo que atender público y me quedó una mala experiencia con un estadounidense, pues hablo inglés y por atenderlo "bien" se tomó muchas libertades y "confianzitas" y hasta me criticaba el hecho de que aquí hablaramos español...desde ese entonces, no le hablo en inglés a ningún otro extranjero, no se si será su forma de ser y no quiero otro de esos visitantes.
Si voy a USA, hablaré inglés de muy buena gana, si vienes a Costa Rica, tendrás que hablar español.
Estoy en contra de cualquier version alternativa de cualquier himno de cualquier país del mundo. Ese es un tema casi que "sagrado". Sólo espero que los latinos en Estados Unidos no le pidan a Ricky Martin que cante la versión alterna del himno.
En síntesis, si vives en Rusia, tendrás que cantar el himno en ruso, pues es su lengua oficial, la lengua en la que fue escrito el himno y por todo lo demás que representa.


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## Residente Calle 13

Pimp_of_the_pimps said:
			
		

> Sólo espero que los latinos en Estados Unidos no le pidan a Ricky Martin que cante la versión alterna del himno.


Por si acaso no lo has notado los latinos en Estados Unidos no le han pido a nadie que le traduzca ningún himno. Muchos de nosotros somos cuidadanos que no nos importa ni el himno en inglés, ni en español, ni en chino. La mayoría estamos aquí legalmente y muchos hablamos muy bien los idiomas de este país.


----------



## Just_Wil

Excelente, todo lo dicho es excelente, sólo que Ricky Martin no la cante...no creo que se necesite que él la traduzca.


----------



## heidita

Really Pimpy is quite right, if anybody "imposes" his language on the rest of the people it is the English speakers. This isn't so well understood on this forum, as we all speak several languages. So we have taken all kind of trouble to learn the native language of where we live.

Then I can only agree with him on the national anthem to be "sacred" . I have no doubt Germans would get a fit if they heard Turkish or Italian immigrants chant the song...


----------



## ElaineG

> How can you say that nobody can sing the American anthem, when even I have heard it sung by many people and everybody seems to know the lyrics perfectly.


 
The tune is famously impossible to carry, and few Americans do know the lyrics perfectly. A funny episode of a show I know you watch, The Tonight Show, once had clips of Americans recounting what they thought the lyrics were. There were some very very funny moments. As a test, ask any American you meet to recite the lyrics -- test them and see if they can go beyond the opening lines and the closing lines (I bet many Americans think the song ends, "Play ball!").
Check out just a few of these Google links to see how many people recount their misunderstanding of this song: http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&q=misheard+lyrics+star+spangled+banner

Think _anyone_ knows this verse:


> _And where is that band who so vauntingly swore_
> _That the havoc of war and the battle's confusion,_
> _A home and a country should leave us no more?_
> _Their blood has wash'd out their foul footsteps' pollution._
> _No refuge could save the hireling and slave_
> _From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave:_
> _And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave_
> _O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave._


 
Nope. No one does.

Anyone who contends that the Star Spangled Banner is a) a very singable tune, or b) that its lyrics are actually concretely known betrays their rather superficial understanding of American culture and society.



> And when was it decided that it glorifies war? What has the anthem got to do with the Bush administration?


 
The Bush administration?!?! Who said anything about the Bush administration? Are you so naive as to believe that this nation's relationship to war began with the _Bush administration?!?!?_

The song, as I thought most people knew, but as I should recognize is new stuff for many non-Americans, was written during the War of 1812 during the shelling of Fort McHenry. The song, which recounts "the rockets' red glare, and bombs bursting in air," is about American military resistance to the British attack.

It recounts the killing of the British (called "hirelings and slaves") in glowing terms:



> _Their blood has wash'd out their foul footsteps' pollution._
> _No refuge could save the hireling and slave_
> _From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave:_


 
And concludes with a happy statement of American military power:



> _Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,_
> _And this be our motto: “In God is our trust!”_


 
All very appropriate for that particular moment, but why does it need to be our national anthem????

As for the notion that it glorifies war, I remember first hearing that interesting suggestion from a friend of my parents some 20 years before there was a "Bush administration" -- the suggestion being that "America the Beautiful" would be a more appropriate and less bloodthirsty national anthem. (America the Beautiful).



> What is so important about the English guy being the author, as the importance lies in *why *and *when *the Spanish illegal immigrant population is going to sing it and USE it!


 
Well, according that article, that _English guy_ is going to _use it _to the tune of $9 a pop. Also according to that article:


> The song features artists such as Wyclef Jean, hip hop star Pitbull and Puerto Rican singers Carlos Ponce and Olga Tañón.


Last time I checked, none of those folks "_singing_" and "_using_" the song were "_illegal Spanish immigrants_." If those facts don't shed some light on the actual forces behind this song and aren't _"important,"_ I don't know what does or is. It appears to be a celebrity orchestrated phenomenon that has little to do with grass roots organizing. I suppose we should blame the moronic lyrics of "We Are the World" on the those famine victims in Ethopia. Let's get them for "Do They Know It's Christmas?" while we're at it.

And, "why" and "when" are the "Spanish illegal immigrant" population going to "sing it" and "use it"? There was a demonstration in my neighborhood this morning, and I stayed for almost an hour, and I didn't hear anyone "_singing it_" or _"using it_." Of course, not being the INS, I didn't go around and determine if those at the demonstration were "_Spanish illegal immigrants_." They looked like my neighbors to me.

So please enlighten me with some facts, Heidita. I want to know where, when, and how, they are going to _use it_ and _sing it_, and I also want to know how we are going to determine that that those _using and singing it_ are in fact illegal. Because it just wouldn't be the same to say, "_Hispanic Americans_ are using and singing this version of the national anthem." We could hardly get hysterical about that, could we?

P.S., also from Wikipedia:



> This is not the first time that the National Anthem has been translated into another language by ethnic and immigrant groups in the United States. In 1861, it was translated into German [3] (and is also on that page in Latin). It has been translated into Yiddish by Jewish immigrants[4]and into French by Cajuns.[5]. The website of the US State Department also has been providing mutliple Spanish versions of the anthem. [6]


 
God, I wonder what the _State Department_ is _using_ those Spanish versions for? And where and when?


----------



## heidita

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> Really? Nobody in my rally sang it or even knew it. What you saw in the news today must have been the really smart immigrants who learnt that new song which *just *came out by heart by now. Wow!
> 
> I haven't heard these incredibly gifted people on the US media either but the night is young.


 
If I had been interested *I *could have sung it as the lyrics were published in the spanish nationwide newspaper and I am sure the illegal immigrants had no problem finding the lyrics either. I am surprised at your astonishment..


----------



## Bienvenidos

ElaineG said:
			
		

> Nope. No one does.


 
Of course nobody does, but when we're all going through elementary school music class, they teach us the shortened version, not the whole thing. Why? Maybe because they think our minds can't contemplate it, or maybe they think it's not as important as the rest of the song. But the fact still exists: we really don't know it. I bet half the people who are so upset about this issue don't even know all of the lyrics to the original anthem themselves! Plus, if everybody cares so much about the anthem, why don't they teach us the whole thing...? I think the Star Spangled Banner, as some other forero may have mentioned, is just like the English monarchy: it just exists as a representation of the nation. What substance is in the song? Well, there's a lot of it, but do we really think about every single scene described in that song when we sing it? No, we're just thinking "this song represents our nation, and that's that". Well I say congratulations to those immigrants who are willing to take the step to say, "hey, America is *my nation* too". And if they want to blend their culture with ours, there is no better way to show their patriotism other than singing *our *national anthem in their own language. Americans are of all different nations. Our anthem is our anthem. We can't put a limit on how it is sung, or in which language. We just can't.

*Bien*


----------



## ElaineG

It's terrible when the facts interfere with a perfectly good rallying cry for hysteria:



> _AP)_ _LOS ANGELES_ Marching in waves of red, white and blue, chanting "USA, USA" *and singing the national anthem in Englis*h, illegal immigrants and supporters rallied by the thousands in California on Monday as part of a nationwide work and shopping boycott designed to demonstrate economic power.


 


> The crowd sang "The Star-Spangled Banner" in English -- not the Spanish-language version that debuted on some radio stations last week.
> 
> "*It's the American national anthem, it should be sung in the national language -- English," said Frank Gurule, mayor of nearby Cudahy, where the population of 30,000 is 95 percent Latino and 65 percent non-citizen*.


 
http://cbs13.com/local/local_story_121190900.html

Emphasis added.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch:



> Sen. Lamar Alexander (R-Tenn.) introduced a resolution yesterday calling for “The Star-Spangled Banner” and other traditional patriotic compositions to be recited or sung solely in English.


 
Because patriotism can only be expressed in English? I hope someone explained that to the families of the over 60 immigrants who were granted posthumous citizenship after giving their lives for this country in Iraq.  http://news.pacificnews.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=8e5f7aa59c829b6a1027b8c59115232a


----------



## TrentinaNE

_The Star-Spangled Banner_ is a notoriously difficult song to sing, but I find its range very stirring. Its melody actually only covers about an octave and a half, which is quite manageable for most people. The trouble is that the key I prefer as a second alto is probably going to reach too low for a first soprano, while the soprano's preferred key is going to reach uncomfortably high for me. 

As for follks not knowing the lyrics, I'm not sure many more people know the lyrics to "America the Beautiful," which is lovely, but for my taste has too many references to "God" in it. 

Elizabeth


----------



## Residente Calle 13

heidita said:
			
		

> If I had been interested *I *could have sung it as the lyrics were published in the spanish nationwide newspaper and I am sure the illegal immigrants had no problem finding the lyrics either. I am surprised at your astonishment..


You said it was sung by protestors. I think the burden of proof is on *you*.
But you don't have to prove anything. This isn't a courtroom.

Two people have told you they were at rallies and that nobody sang that song. I haven't seen it so I don't believe it. Until I do, I won't. 

I think it's amazing that people who are concerned about getting deported would take the time to find the lyrics to this stupid song and memorize it for the occasion. I'd hate to hear how it came out because it's not an easy song to perform. It must have sounded like shit.

I find it the whole thing hard to fathom. The people at my rally felt like you, they were not in the least bit interested. The people I asked saw it as one huge distraction. What they want is papers. They don't give a eff about that song. 

That's what I hear in my neck of the woods.


----------



## Residente Calle 13

TrentinaNE said:
			
		

> _The Star-Spangled Banner_ is a notoriously difficult song to sing, but I find its range very stirring. Its melody actually only covers about an octave and a half, which is quite manageable for most people. The trouble is that the key I prefer as a second alto is probably going to reach too low for a first soprano, while the soprano's preferred key is going to reach uncomfortably high for me.
> 
> As for follks not knowing the lyrics, I'm not sure many more people know the lyrics to "America the Beautiful," which is lovely, but for my taste has too many references to "God" in it.
> 
> Elizabeth



I don't know the lyrics and I doubt that anybody I know does. Until this thread I didn't know it was "o'er the land of the free." I know the first two lines! But then I get lost.


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## TrentinaNE

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> I don't know the lyrics and I doubt that anybody I know does.


I learned it in grade school, back in the days when there was still funding for such "frivolities" as music and art.  The lyrics are easily found on many web-sites. But I find that on the whole, America is not big on group singing. We seem to prefer (gross generalization here) listening to participating, perhaps because so few people have even rudimentary musical training.


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## cuchuflete

As proud as I am of my immigrant grandparents, I am proud of anyone who sings my national anthem either to show affection for the country, or to promote the basic values on which the country was founded.  If that means singing it in Swahili with a heavy Guaraní accent, bravo.   Until some xenophobes changed the immigration laws to try, ineffectually, to keep out anyone who didn't look and sound like the then majority, we had tens of millions of immigrants, like those in my family, who came here to work and build a life with a future for their children.

That description matches the great majority of the current illegal immigrants.  I invite them to sing The Star-Spangled Banner in English,_ or in any other language_.  I invite them to 
do it out of respect for the ideals of the nation, or to help to achieve legal status, and the rights and obligations that go with citizenship.

It's perfectly legal to sing the song off-key, to scramble the words, and to be ignorant of Fort McHenry in Baltimore Harbor.  It's perfectly legal to give tasteless renditions at sporting events.  Why get one's knickers in a twist about singing it in Spanish?  When an Alabamian or Missourian sings it, someone from Buffalo may have equal difficulty understanding the words, and vice versa.





			
				heidita said:
			
		

> nycphotography said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In this context, it is being sung in spanish as a form of protest. This is similar to burning a flag in protest. Bravo!  I like protests against bad policy.  I watched the flag burned many times in anti-war protests during the Vietnam era.  Those flags were burned by patriots who opposed the regime in power.  They didn't embrace the policies of Richard Nixon.  They helped bring an end to a war that killed and maimed hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese and Americans.  That was good, old-fashioned, patriotic protest, using a national symbol.
> 
> It is of course disrectful. Duh. I don't recall many very protests (like one in fact) where the outrages protesters were chanting respectfully about the actual issues.
> What are 'the actual issues?
Click to expand...


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## hedonist

I think those that are complaining about the US anthem being translated and sung in Spanish would have preferred if any of the _illegal_ immigrants accused (never mind if actually happened or not) of doing so  would have sung the Mexican national anthem instead.

It wouldn't come a shock to me if someone behind the anti-immigration movement was responsible for this _translation_, just to stir things up even further. But in any event it's not an initiative that I would expect from someone that does not want to _assimilate_.  Someone that has no intention in _assimiliating_, translating the lyrics to US national anthem would be one of the last thing to enter his/her mind I would presume.


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## Daniel4802

ElaineG said:
			
		

> Ask yourself what happens to the other 9$?


You should also ask: What is this group - the National Capital Immigration Coalition (NCIC) - that is receiving the $1?

The NCIC is a front company for the Service Employees International Union (SEIU). They are affiliated with one of the largest and wealthiest unions, the AFSCME, and share their political agenda. The SEIU was also involved in organizing the multitude of pro-illegal immigration rallies in California, Arizona, and Texas last month.

I find it quite ironic that this organization which is collecting the proceeds is active in the promotion of such pro-illegal immigration rallies and the distribution of the mp3 song to radio stations occured just days before May 1st. And since the SEIU has been behind walkouts in the past, I wonder who played a huge role in orchestrating the "Day without Immigrants."


> And as a last measure, if you are American, ask yourself where your family would be if the restrictive immigration policies that have been proposed were in place a hundred years ago. I know my great-grandparents would have, and did, do anything possible to get out of Europe. At that time you didn't need a visa, you just needed to not be an epileptic, a beggar, an anarchist or a carrier of contagious diseases.


You are correct that at one point, all aspiring immigrants had to do to obtain legal status was satisfy a few prerequisites - such as providing evidence of immunization and being free from disease. 

The reason why the rules were a lot more relaxed then was because at the time the U.S. was still in an early stage of growth which desperately needed a massive number of immigrants and the nation could support a quickly expanding populace. Although it is debatable as to how much we rely on "illegal" immigration today, our country is far more self-relient than when we were very dependent on the influx of a tremendous amount of new foreign workers. In addition, taxpayers can't afford to continue to support the arrival of a million new illegals each year.

We have never been an "automatic" citizenship country. The problem is that many illegal immigrants are demanding instant citizenship immediately and have not bothered with the initial steps as to gain legal entry status even after being here for more than 10 years. 

Illegal immigrants shouldn't get the same rights and benefits legal citizens procure because then few will bother going about it the legal way. It proved to be true back in 1986 when the estimated illegal population was 3 million. Naive people thought, "We'll just grant amnesty to these illegals, they'll all apply and receive valid citizenship, we'll tighten the border and everything will be ok." You need only look at the 12 million or so illegals in the country now to see that the plan was a huge failure.

If we go about things the same way as then, and the migration rate remains steady, you can be assured that two decades from now, the illegal population here may quadruple to over 40 million. 

There will be a time when this nation won't be able to support such a high volume of illegal immigrants; thus we will, at some point in time, have to actually start enforcing our current immigration laws just like other nations. I'd rather see it done now than later when we most likely won't have any options.

Sure, people can ask the hypothetical: "What if you were in the same position as them and needed to find a better opportunity?" My answer is this: I have family - both on my father's and mother's sides - who came from very poor origins (France and Mexico) and migrated to the U.S. legally. There are 1,000s of individuals pursuing the legal method of citizenship every year who live in far worse environments. I don't think it is fair that while they wait patiently, others just cross the border, expecting to "cut through the line."


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## badgrammar

Fascinating thread, read the whole thing.  Elaine, you are on a roll!  Bravo!  You had me ROFLMAO with the first couple of posts and you really hit home with all of them.  I am very impressed by your fact-hunting, and very much in agreement with your sentiment.

"I suppose we should blame the moronic lyrics of "We Are the World" on the those famine victims in Ethopia. Let's get them for "Do They Know It's Christmas?" while we're at it." D:

When you get right down to it, the whole thing is yet another "product", invented was invented by a guy who jumped on the bandwagon of this current event to market an album!  Are the "Spanish"  immigrants singing it, as has been claimed?  I certainly haven't seen any of that on the news.  

Dear Heidita, as a side note, I really think you might want to re-read some of these posts and take a moment for reflection.  I guarantee you that 99.99999999999% of Americans cannot sing more than a few lines of this song, which is also quite difficult to sing nicely for reasons noted in Trentiane's post.  I'm afraid the arguments you give are more from passion than from actual knowledge about the subject.  Which is fine, but you might wish to recognize that fact.  By which I am not saying that I don't respect your feeling about it, but you just don't have much to lean on here. 

I imagine that when this story has had its 15 minutes of fame, we will all go back to ineptly mumbling a few lines of the banner in English, maybe some hispanics will have learned (likely equally ineptly) a few lines of the SPanish version, and at baseball games and the likes, you might hear both versions sung simultaneously (could give a nice World Music feeling to it), and life will go on....

As per this idea that we should all learn Spanish, or that the language is going to displace English in the U.S....  Maybe we should, and maybe it will, over the next 100, 200, 300 years.  So what?  English won't die, language evolves, speaking two or more languages is good.  The revolution won't be in your lifetime, and it poses no threat to our children's futures.  Yeesh.


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## Brioche

fenixpollo said:
			
		

> "It's a free country." "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism." -- Thomas Jefferson


 
No, Thomas Jefferson never said that, or anything like it.

The historian Howard Zinn said it in an interview in 2002.


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## Chaska Ñawi

Way to go, Elaine!  I wish everybody backed up their posts and made such cogent arguments in this forum, instead of providing a tedious litany of emotional statements with no supporting facts.

One assumption I see appearing several times in this thread, which I find somewhat chilling, is that the only Spanish speakers in the U.S. are immigrants, illegal or otherwise.  How many generations does it take to stop being considered an immigrant?  Five?  Ten?  

(Incidentally, I believe that the original population of several southern states spoke Spanish, not English.)


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## TrentinaNE

Daniel4802 said:
			
		

> Sure, people can ask the hypothetical: "What if you were in the same position as them and needed to find a better opportunity?" My answer is this: I have family - both on my father's and mother's sides - who came from very poor origins (France and Mexico) and migrated to the U.S. legally. There are 1,000s of individuals pursuing the legal method of citizenship every year who live in far worse environments. I don't think it is fair that while they wait patiently, others just cross the border, expecting to "cut through the line."


Thanks, Daniel. This is always a big emotional stumbling block for me as well. 

Just read this in a letter to the NY Times today and had to add it:


> Regardless of what language the American national anthem is sung in, it is nearly impossible for anyone to dance to the tune.


LOL!

Elizabeth


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## ireney

Interesting link. I know it's off topic and therefore should be left ananswered but living in the Balkans I found the following quote (from the link provided by Trentina) ironically amuzing:



> Spanish translations of American patriotic songs do not balkanize society; discrimination does.


 
I can't say I really have an opinion on the anthem. All I can say is that I wouldn't mind if anyone wanted to sing ours (a hymn to Liberty that, according to our anthem, "She (the liberty) rose/came about from the sacred bones of the Greeks) in his/her language, provided he/she could make a good translation of the poem (always a hard thing to do) AND match this translation to the tune.


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## maxiogee

heidita said:
			
		

> Well, there you are...you just said it: it was definitely written for political reasons and not to praise the country where the immigrants work and live.



Your proof to back up that assertion is eagerly awaited.


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## fenixpollo

Brioche said:
			
		

> No, Thomas Jefferson never said that, or anything like it.  The historian Howard Zinn said it in an interview in 2002.


Wow, Brioche, thanks for the correction. I had no idea! That's what you get when you rely on liberalist propaganda machines as your sources.   However, Jefferson did say something like it in his inaugural address: 





> If there be any among us who would wish to dissolve this Union or to change its republican form, let them stand undisturbed as monuments of the safety with which error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it.


Here's a better one for you: 





			
				Barbara Ehrenreich said:
			
		

> No matter that patriotism is too often the refuge of scoundrels. Dissent, rebellion, and all-around hell-raising remain the true duty of patriots.


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## Bienvenidos

Ireney's response has enlightened me a little...wouldn't it be beautiful to hear two people singinging the National Anthem in harmony, one in Spanish, the other in English? I think this would represent the ultimate cultural blend...it would be amazing. 

Another question (on topic, claro que sí) 
for those who are against the anthem in Spanish, do you feel like it is your duty as an American citizen to protect your anthem from being changed in any way?

*Bien*


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## Krümelmonster

Hey, just read in the news today that a German politician wanted us to follow the example of the USA and create a version of our german himn in turkish... 
Now we have really interesting debates here in Germany...


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## QUIJOTE

Just tossing some more wood into the fire.

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/414392p-350223c.html


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## ElaineG

> On the campaign trail in 1999, Bush would often sing along as the national anthem was sung in Spanish during stops in Hispanic communities, GOP scholar Kevin Phillips wrote in his book "American Dynasty." After Bush was elected, Cuban exile and pop vocalist Jon Secada also sang the "The Star-Spangled Banner" in both English and Spanish at the 2001 opening ceremony of the presidential inaugural, according to media reports at the time.


 
Thanks, Quijote! Great stuff.


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## cuchuflete

So George is not only somewhat bi-lingual, but also bi-positional?  Or is that bi-polar?  Or maybe just politically incorrect.


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## Residente Calle 13

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> So George is not only somewhat bi-lingual, but also bi-positional?  Or is that bi-polar?  Or maybe just politically incorrect.



*Bi-posturing*, I think it's called.


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## lizzeymac

If you would like to read the new lyrics - 

According to The Associated Press April 28, 2006, these are the lyrics of the SSB in the spanish translation or version - Nuestro Himno - which includes what the author calls "changes for rhyming" & new lyrics.  The changes & new lyrics, which are a bit pointed, seem to be starting an entirely new argument & making previously amenable Americans angry.

*'Nuestro Himno' lyrics*

Verso 1 
¿Amenece, lo veis?, a la luz de la aurora? 
Lo que tanto aclamamos la noche caer? 
Sus estrellas sus franjas 
flotaban ayer 
En el fiero combate 
en señal de victoria, 
Fulgor de lucha, al paso de la libertada, 
Por la noche decían: "!Se va defendiendo!"

Coro: 
!Oh decid! ¿Despliega aún 
Voz a su hermosura estrellada, 
Sobre tierra de libres, 
la bandera sagrada?

Verso 2 
Sus estrellas, sus franjas, la libertad, somos iquales 
Somos hermanos, en nuestro himno. 
En el fiero combate en señal de victoria, 
Fulgor de lucha, al paso de la libertada, 
Mi gente sigue luchando yah es tiempo de romper las cadenas 
Por la noche decían: "!Se va defendiendo!"

Coro: 
!Oh decid! Despliega aún su hermosura estrellada


Nuestro Himno English translation

Verse 1 
The day is breaking, do you see it? In the light of the dawn? 
What we so acclaimed at nightfall? 
Its stars, its stripes, 
flew yesterday 
In the fierce battle 
in a sign of victory, 
The glow of battle, in step with liberty 
At night they said: "It's being defended!"

Chorus: 
Oh say! 
The voice of your starry beauty 
is still unfolding 
Over the land of the free 
The sacred flag?

Verse 2 
Its stars, its stripes, 
Freedom, we are equal 
We are brothers, in our anthem. 
In the fierce combat in a sign of victory 
The glow of battle, in step with liberty 
My people keep fighting 
It's time to break the chains 
At night they said: "It's being defended!" 
Oh say! Your starry beauty is still unfolding.


*Official lyrics of The Star Spangled Banner*

Verse 1
Oh, say, can you see, by the dawn's early light,
     What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming?
     Whose broad stripes and bright stars, through the perilous fight,
     O'er the ramparts we watched, were so gallantly streaming!
     And the rockets' red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
     Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there:

Chorus
O say, does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?

Verse 2
On the shore, dimly seen through the mists of the deep,
     Where the foe's haughty host in dread silence reposes,
     What is that which the breeze, o'er the towering steep,
     As it fitfully blows, now conceals, now discloses?
     Now it catches the gleam of the morning's first beam,
     In full glory reflected now shines on the stream:

Chorus 2
'Tis the star-spangled banner! O long may it wave
     O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!


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## Daniel4802

In the original that was first sent out to countless music stations, the Chorus echoed pro-illegal immigration sentiments. 

I see in this version, they removed that language.

Also, if you want to read the original, *do not* go to the Wikipedia link because they don't include the Chorus.

As I can't post URLs yet, google "Nuestro Himno" and choose the article by the Chicago Tribune - they include the Chorus which has lines such as the following:


> "It's time to make a difference the kids, men and the women/Let's stand for our beliefs, let's stand for our vision/What about the children los ninos como P-Star.
> 
> These kids have no parents, cause all of these mean laws."


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