# da er fiebernde Küsse und Umarmungen belauschte... (da)



## Löwenfrau

I think the second "da" is clearly temporal, but the first one could be spacial as well:

"Manchmal aber erwacht der Park aus schweren Träumen. Dann strömt er ein Erinnern aus an kühle Sternennächte, an tief verborgene heimliche Stellen, da er fiebernde Küsse und Umarmungen belauschte, an Sommernächte, voll glühender Pracht und Herrlichkeit, da der Mond wirre Bilder auf den schwarzen Grund zauberte, ..."

Am I right?

"... Then it infuses/exahles memories of cool starry nights, of secret places deeply hidden, where (referring to these secret places)/ when (referring to the cool starry nights) it (the park) glimpsed febrile hugs and kisses, of summer nights full of a warm splendor and majesty, when (clearly referring to these summer nights) the moon ..."

Is there a secret to be sure of which sense is intended?
Maybe the emphasis is in the past _time_, and therefore always a temporal "da"?


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## manfy

The first "da" I clearly read as "weil".
For a spacial meaning, I'd expect "wo er fiebernde Küsse..."

For the second "da", I'm not too sure .... but I'm leaning towards "weil" also!?
It's a list of locations where the awakened park is streaming its reminiscence to, isn't it??

"*Dann strömt er ein Erinnern aus* (an [1] kühle Sternennächte), (an [2] tief verborgene heimliche Stellen, da er fiebernde Küsse und Umarmungen belauschte), (an [3] Sommernächte, voll glühender Pracht und Herrlichkeit, da der Mond wirre Bilder auf den schwarzen Grund zauberte), (an [4] sonst noch was) ..."

PS: Granted, when applying some artistic license, "da" with meaning "wo" could work also!


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## perpend

I understand this: At those times, it emanates memories of cool starry nights, of highly/deeply secluded secret spots, since it eavesdropped on feverish kisses and tenderness, of glowing summer nights filled with delighfulness, since the moon conjured mazy images on the dark ground ...

Hope that helps and/or makes sense.

EDIT: Cross-posted with manfy.


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## manfy

Uuuh - "emanate".   I like that. That's very suitable here.

But the park is NOT emanating ITS memories. Das Erinnern is not the same as die Erinnerung.

But now that makes me see, the park is not sending out that thing to 1, 2, 3, but it is emanating something that instills in us a memory of 1, and memory of 2, etc.
Hmmm ... that's deep! ... or a lot of artistic license! ... or maybe just far-fetched? 

I think, LF should quote the full sentence incl. the next one, to see if this makes any sense.


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## JClaudeK

Löwenfrau said:


> I think the second "da" is clearly temporal, but the first one could be spacial as well:


Ich halte beide "da" für temporal, Synonyme von "als".


manfy said:


> The first "da" I clearly read as "weil".


Mit "weil" kann ich mich überhaupt nicht anfreunden!


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## perpend

JClaudeK said:


> Ich halte beide "da" für temporal, Synonyme von "als".
> 
> Mit "weil" kann ich mich überhaupt nicht anfreunden!



Ich kann es, und hier heisst es (in der Stimme vom Park) "since/because".

Der Park hat hier zu sagen, m.E.


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## DerFrosch

I definitely read both as "when".

First we have:

an Sternennächte, [...] da

and then:

an Sommernächte, [...] da

In both cases temporal nouns, which makes you expect a temporal adverb to follow.

"Weil" seems far-fetched to me.

Der Park strömt ein Erinnern an gerade diese Nächte an, weil ... ?

Why would Trakl emphasize that?

Anyway, I strongly feel that the parallel with the nights makes it necessary that "da" has the same meaning in both cases.


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## JClaudeK

> da = als
> temporal
> Gebrauch
> gehoben veraltend
> Beispiele
> 
> da sie noch reich war, hatte sie viele Freunde
> zu der Zeit, in den Tagen, da viele nichts zu essen hatten  http://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/da_Konjunktion_weil





DerFrosch said:


> I definitely read both as "when". [...] "Weil" seems far-fetched to me.



"da = als" passt außerdem bestens zu Trakls Stil.

_ ein Erinnern [...],  da [der Park] fiebernde Küsse und Umarmungen belauschte, [...] da der Mond wirre Bilder auf den schwarzen Grund zauberte_
"weil" passt m.E. wirklich nicht!


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## manfy

I have no serious objection. The more I read it, the more I'm scratching my head.
"Als" surely makes semantic sense. But why "da" instead of "als" in the first place? It does not change the word flow or rhythm, it does not make it more poetic (from a 2015 point of view).

Maybe I'm just having a "bad poetry day" today, ... _and_ a "bad hair day" ...


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## JClaudeK

manfy said:


> But why "da" instead of "als" in the first place?



gehoben = more poetical
that's why (I think).


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## Fragezeichen

manfy said:


> I have no serious objection. The more I read it, the more I'm scratching my head.
> "Als" surely makes semantic sense. But why "da" instead of "als" in the first place? It does not change the word flow or rhythm, it does not make it more poetic (from a 2015 point of view).
> 
> Maybe I'm just having a "bad poetry day" today, ... _and_ a "bad hair day" ...


Well, you have to bear in mind that Trakl lived in the late 19th/early 20th century. Nowadays "da" as a temporal conjunction with the meaning of "als" is considered outdated, but in the time of Trakl it was commonly used.


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## Kajjo

_"Manchmal aber erwacht der Park aus schweren Träumen. Dann strömt er ein Erinnern aus an kühle Sternennächte, an tief verborgene heimliche Stellen, da er fiebernde Küsse und Umarmungen belauschte, an Sommernächte, voll glühender Pracht und Herrlichkeit, da der Mond wirre Bilder auf den schwarzen Grund zauberte, ..."

From time to time, the park awakes from heavy dreams. Then it emanates memories of cool starry nights, of secret places deeply secluded, where it eavesdropped on feverish kisses and tenderness, of summer nights full of glowing splendor and magnificence, when the moon conjured mazy images on the dark ground, ..._

I like perpends translation very much and kept quite close to it.

Translation of "da":

1. Personally, I exclude the meaning "weil". This just does not fit at all. It's not about causal relation at all.

2. I strongly believe "da" is an old-fashioned version equal to nowadays "wo" and similar to "als" -- Including the typical local and temporal ambivalence that "wo" exhibits quite often ("in dem Moment, wo...", "jetzt, wo du dich entschieden hast"). This ambivalence in "da" is a perfect poetic solution for the ambivalence of place and time in this fine lines.

Note "secret places, where..." is surely meant locally, too. Also it has the temporal meaning of "at those times / nights, when".


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## DerFrosch

Kajjo said:


> I strongly believe "da" is an old-fashioned version equal to nowadays "wo" and similar to "als" -- Including the typical locative and temporal ambivalence that "wo" exhibits quite often ("in dem Moment, wo...", "jetzt, wo du dich entschieden hast").



Would you mind explaining where the ambivalence lies in those examples? As a non-native, I can't see any. It only looks temporal to me.


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## JClaudeK

Kajjo said:


> 2. I strongly believe "da" is an old-fashioned version equal to nowadays "wo" and similar to "als" -- Including the typical locative and temporal ambivalence that "wo" exhibits quite often ("in dem Moment, wo...", "jetzt, wo du dich entschieden hast").



I can't find any "locative and temporal" meaning in the old-fashioned version of "da"  but maybe a "*causal* and temporal ambivalence" but you reject the causal meaning, don't you, Kajjo?


> 3) da =  nachdem (2), wo
> temporal mit kausalem Nebensinn
> Beispiel
> jetzt, da es beschlossen ist, kommt dein Einwand zu spät
> http://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/da_Konjunktion_weil


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## Löwenfrau

Fragezeichen said:


> Well, you have to bear in mind that Trakl lived in the late 19th/early 20th century. Nowadays "da" as a temporal conjunction with the meaning of "als" is considered outdated, but in the time of Trakl it was commonly used.



As a Trakl's reader, I can say he uses "da" quite often, including with its temporal meaning.

And, to my ears, "weil" doesn't seem to make sense at all...


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## Löwenfrau

But no one seems to think of the spacial meaning. Looking deeper in the text structure, we can separate it in parts starting with "an":

"Manchmal aber erwacht der Park aus schweren Träumen. Dann strömt er ein Erinnern aus an kühle Sternennächte, *an tief verborgene heimliche Stellen,* *da* er fiebernde Küsse und Umarmungen belauschte, *an Sommernächte, voll glühender Pracht und Herrlichkeit, da* der Mond wirre Bilder auf den schwarzen Grund zauberte, ..."

By doing this, we could clearly read the first "da" as spacial referring to the "heimliche Stellen", and the second "da" as temporal referring to "Sommernächte".

I don't know if my reasoning is clear, I'm sure there are technical terms that could explaine it.


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## Kajjo

Yes, location and time, that's what I said...?

Thus, "wo" in contemporary German fits perfectly, and I believe "da" ist just Trakls way of saying the same.

Here, "da" can obviously refer to both the secret place as well as to the given nights.


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## Kajjo

DerFrosch said:


> Would you mind explaining where the ambivalence lies in those examples? As a non-native, I can't see any. It only looks temporal to me.


You can use "wo" to refer to a location ("dort, wo wir uns getroffen haben"), which is the typical way of using "wo", but as well as to refer to a time ("jetzt, wo wir...") and there are many situations in which the reference is not really clear and might be local or temporal. This is very often the case when describing situations that took place in a certain location to a given time -- like here in this example.


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## DerFrosch

The reason I ruled out reading "da" as a temporal adverb is because I've never seen used it as a temporal *relative* adverb. 

I presume that we all agree that it's not used like that in contemporary German. But has it ever been? It would be interesting if someone could find an example of it.


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## Fragezeichen

Während "wo" unter anderem Lokal- und Temporalsätze einzuleiten vermag, beschränkt sich "da", sofern es wie hier von Trakl als Konjunktion gebraucht wird, auf Temporal- und Kausalsätze.
Lediglich in seiner Funktion als Adverb kann es einen örtlichen Bezug herstellen.


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## Kajjo

@Fragezeichen: Aber war das zu Trakls Zeiten auch so, noch dazu in seiner regionalen Sprache?! 

Im Englischen muss man hier "when" oder "where" übersetzen, aber auf keinen Falle "because/since".


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## Löwenfrau

manfy said:


> Uuuh - "emanate".   I like that. That's very suitable here.
> 
> But the park is NOT emanating ITS memories. Das Erinnern is not the same as die Erinnerung.
> 
> But now that makes me see, the park is not sending out that thing to 1, 2, 3, but it is emanating something that instills in us a memory of 1, and memory of 2, etc.
> Hmmm ... that's deep! ... or a lot of artistic license! ... or maybe just far-fetched?
> 
> I think, LF should quote the full sentence incl. the next one, to see if this makes any sense.



@manfy, I think it's more than that; see, in "da er fiebernde Küsse und Umarmungen belauschte",  "er" is "der Park". Which is no wonder in Trakl...
And, if the park dreams, why not have memories?...

A broader context:

"Manchmal aber erwacht der Park aus schweren Träumen. Dann strömt er ein Erinnern aus an kühle Sternennächte, an tief verborgene heimliche Stellen, da er fiebernde Küsse und Umarmungen belauschte, an Sommernächte, voll glühender Pracht und Herrlichkeit, da der Mond wirre Bilder auf den schwarzen Grund zauberte, an Menschen, die zierlich galant, voll rhythmischer Bewegungen unter seinem Blätterdache dahinwandelten, die sich süße, verrückte Worte zuraunten, mit feinem verheißenden Lächeln.
Und dann versinkt der Park wieder in seinen Todesschlaf."


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## manfy

Löwenfrau said:


> @manfy, I think it's more than that; see, in "da er fiebernde Küsse und Umarmungen belauschte",  "er" is "der Park". Which is no wonder in Trakl...
> And, if the park dreams, why not have memories?...


 
I was trying to make sense of the use of "ein Erinnern" instead of "Erinnerungen".
Had he used "Dann strömt er Erinnerungen aus an ..." it would create a stronger feeling of "the park forces its own memories of A, B, C onto us".
But with "Dann strömt er ein Erinnern aus an ..." feels more like "the park makes us think of or makes us remember..." and these thoughts or memories could be real memories or imaginations in the sense of wishful thinking.
Whether you see this difference as important or not is up to you.

The English version "_Then it emanates memories of cool starry nights ..._" works quite well because it leaves the source of those memories open (as long as you don't say "_Then it emanates *its* memories of cool starry nights ..._")


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## Löwenfrau

manfy said:


> I was trying to make sense of the use of "ein Erinnern" instead of "Erinnerungen".
> Had he used "Dann strömt er Erinnerungen aus an ..." it would create a stronger feeling of "the park forces its own memories of A, B, C onto us".
> But with "Dann strömt er ein Erinnern aus an ..." feels more like "the park makes us think of or makes us remember..." and these thoughts or memories could be real memories or imaginations in the sense of wishful thinking.
> Whether you see this difference as important or not is up to you.
> 
> The English version "_Then it emanates memories of cool starry nights ..._" works quite well because it leaves the source of those memories open (as long as you don't say "_Then it emanates *its* memories of cool starry nights ..._")


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## Kajjo

manfy said:


> But with "Dann strömt er ein Erinnern aus an ..." feels more like "the park makes us think of or makes us remember..."


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## JClaudeK

Löwenfrau, darf ich dir eine Frage stellen?

Für wen ist diese Übersetzung von Trakl bestimmt? Warum fällt es dir so schwer, dich zu entscheiden / deinem eigenen Sprachgefühl zu folgen?


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## Löwenfrau

JClaudeK said:


> Löwenfrau, darf ich dir eine Frage stellen?
> 
> Für wen ist diese Übersetzung von Trakl bestimmt? Warum fällt es dir so schwer, dich zu entscheiden / deinem eigenen Sprachgefühl zu folgen?



It's not for someone especifically. The public wouldn't change the translation... 
The few translations of Trakl available in Brazil are not so careful, I've already identified a lot of mistakes, because people only follow their Portuguese-instinct... When I see any possibility that I might be misreading the German text, I feel compelled to check it out, that's all. Since we can never be perfect, let's do all we can.


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## JClaudeK

Löwenfrau said:


> Since we can never be perfect, let's do all we can.



Ein sehr lobenswerter Vorsatz.


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## berndf

I fully agree agree with Kajjo's understanding:

1. _Da=weil_ can safely be excluded.

2. _Da _means _where _and _when _at the same time. Spacial and temporal meanings as not distinguished.


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## Fragezeichen

berndf said:


> I fully agree agree with Kajjo's understanding:
> 
> 1. _Da=weil_ can safely be excluded.
> 
> 2. _Da _means _where _and _when _at the same time. Spacial and temporal meanings as not distinguished.


Da can only mean "where" if it used as an adverb. As a conjunction it conveys no local meaning.

http://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/da_Konjunktion_weil
http://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/da_Adverb_dort_hier


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## berndf

_Da er aber_ _in das Haus kam, ließ er niemand hineingehen denn Petrus und Jakobus und Johannes und des Kindes Vater und Mutter_. Lukas 8:51.

Without a shadow of a doubt temporal.


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## Fragezeichen

Have I ever denied that "da" can be used as a temporal conjunction? I just said "da" can not serve as a *local conjunction*.



Fragezeichen said:


> Da can only mean "where" if it used as an adverb. *As a conjunction it conveys no local meaning*.



"Da" can't replace "wo" (where) as a *local* conjunction:

"Jetzt, wo es beschlossen ist..." => "Jetzt, da es beschlossen ist..." 
"Er ist dort, wo er gebraucht wird..." => "Er ist dort, da er gebraucht wird..." 

While the first example still retains the same meaning if "wo" is replaced with "da", the second doesn't.
The meaning changes from "He is where he is needed." to " He is there, because he is needed."
So "da" is only interchangable with "wo" in case it is employed as a causal (or temporal) conjunction, but not if it is used as a local one.
Note: The use of "wo" as a temporal conjunction is limited to colloquial speech, that's why I put it in brackets.


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## Kajjo

@Fragezeichen: The question is whether this was true at Trakls time and his regional usage. In contemporary German we wouldn't use "da" in the spacial-temporal sense of "wo" anymore. But in poetic or old-fashioned texts we still understand it in this usage.


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## Fragezeichen

Kajjo said:


> @Fragezeichen: The question is whether this was true at Trakls time and his regional usage. In contemporary German we wouldn't use "da" in the spacial-temporal sense of "wo" anymore. But in poetic or old-fashioned texts we still understand it in this usage.


"Da" surely has a spacial meaning as an adverb, but I have never seen "da" being used as a local conjunction, only as a causal or temporal one. Not even in old-fashioned texts or poetry. I've checked multiple sources and I couldn't find "da" listed as a local conjunction in a single of them.

I think you are confusing something: It's the function of "da" as a temporal conjunction that is considered outdated and is only rarely used in contemporary German.

http://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/da_Konjunktion_weil#Bedeutung2

*Grammatik*
temporal
*Gebrauch*
gehoben veraltend

*Beispiele*

da sie noch reich war, hatte sie viele Freunde
zu der Zeit, in den Tagen, da viele nichts zu essen hatten


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## Löwenfrau

I noticed that nobody has mentioned my suggestion in #16, to read the text as it is separated in three parts starting with "an" (from "Erinnern an"). I thought this could solve the problem, because in Portuguese it would; I think in English too, but I don't know if this is the case in German.


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## Fragezeichen

You are right.

"Manchmal aber erwacht der Park aus schweren Träumen. Dann strömt er ein Erinnern aus an kühle Sternennächte, *an tief verborgene heimliche Stellen,* *da* er fiebernde Küsse und Umarmungen belauschte"
Yes, "da" is used here as a local relative adverb and introduces a relative clause that further describes those secret places (heimliche Stellen). You can rephrase it as "...an tief verborgene heimliche Stellen, *an denen/wo* er fiebernde Küsse und Umarmungen belauschte." So you should translate "da" as "where" in this case.

"an Sommernächte, voll glühender Pracht und Herrlichkeit, da der Mond wirre Bilder auf den schwarzen Grund zauberte, ..."
Here, "da" is used as a temporal conjunction. You can replace it with "als": "an Sommernächte, voll glühender Pracht und Herrlichkeit, *als *der Mond wirre Bilder auf den schwarzen Grund zauberte..." You should translate "da" as "when" in this case.


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## Kajjo

Löwenfrau said:


> I noticed that nobody has mentioned my suggestion in #16, to read the text as it is separated in three parts starting with "an" (from "Erinnern an"). I thought this could solve the problem, because in Portuguese it would; I think in English too, but I don't know if this is the case in German.


Your interpretation in #16 is correct and I believe nobody has anything to argue against this obvious parallelity of the "an"-constructions, but I do not see how it might solce the problem.

"Da" has to be translated as "where" and "when". That's what we discuss here. It is spacial and temporal. Either would do, though. "Weil" is wrong.


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## Fragezeichen

Yes, it has to be translated as "where" in the first sentence and as "when" in the second one. 

My point is just that "da" never means "where" and "when" at the same time.
In the first sentence it is used as a relative adverb. In this case it means "where" and nothing else.
In the second sentence it is used as a temporal conjunction. In this case it means "when" and nothing else.


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## berndf

Fragezeichen said:


> Have I ever denied that "da" can be used as a temporal conjunction? I just said "da" can not serve as a *local conjunction*.


Sorry, misread you.


Fragezeichen said:


> Yes, it has to be translated as "where" in the first sentence and as "when" in the second one.
> 
> My point is just that "da" never means "where" and "when" at the same time.
> In the first sentence it is used as a relative adverb. In this case it means "where" and nothing else.
> In the second sentence it is used as a temporal conjunction. In this case it means "when" and nothing else.


It seems abundantly obvious to me that _da _means _where and when_ in both cases. Under poetic licence I have no problem with that.


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## Löwenfrau

Kajjo said:


> Your interpretation in #16 is correct and I believe nobody has anything to argue against this obvious parallelity of the "an"-constructions, but I do not see how it might solce the problem.



It could solve the problem because the first "da" would be referring to "*tief verborgene heimliche Stellen, da* er fiebernde Küsse und Umarmungen belauschte", so it would be spacial, and not temporal.


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## perpend

Da ein Park nicht immer alles weiss und nicht weitererzaehlen will, da lauschen meistens verboten ist , aber da er doch lauschte, weiss er Bescheid, mit wem und wo, und eben da, ist er Meister.


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## Kajjo

Yes, Löwenfrau, in#12 I already early on gave "where" and "when" as the two best translations.


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