# Fii في + pronoun



## jnov123

I've been going through a second run of Al Kitaab Part one. I forgot what a certain thing means.

fiihii, fiiha, fiihum, etc. What do those mean?


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## Mocanu

I guess you mean the preposition _fii_ (in, inside) plus the pronouns me, him, her... Could that be it?


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## Abu Rashid

Note that fiihum would not exist. like fiihi, the pronoun would become majrour, so it would be fiihim.


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## kifaru

jnov123 said:


> I've been going through a second run of Al Kitaab Part one. I forgot what a certain thing means.
> 
> fiihii, fiiha, fiihum, etc. What do those mean?


In it (some male thing), In it (some female thing), In them. According to Karin C. Ryding and David J. Mehall's "Formal Spoken Arabic" فيه can mean "there is".
Example number 2 on page 22, Basic Information, Part A

في الاردن فيه ملك 
"There is a king in Jordan"

I'm not sure if the native speakers will agree so let's wait. Until recently I was under the impression that هنالك served duty for "there are" and هناك for "there is".


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## clevermizo

kifaru said:


> In it (some male thing), In it (some female thing), In them. According to Karin C. Ryding and David J. Mehall's "Formal Spoken Arabic" فيه can mean "there is".
> Example number 2 on page 22, Basic Information, Part A
> 
> في الاردن فيه ملك
> "There is a king in Jordan"
> 
> I'm not sure if the native speakers will agree so let's wait. Until recently I was under the impression that هنالك served duty for "there are" and هناك for "there is".



هناك is the normal way in Modern Standard Arabic, or modern فصحى to say "there is, there are..." فيه or often simply pronounced في is the common way to say "there is/there are" in many (but not all) spoken varieties of Arabic. This would be true even at the formal register although I'm not sure what the book's position is on "Formal Spoken Arabic" or what that means. In Jordanian Arabic, فيه is just pronounced في, so your example above would just be pronounced في الأردن في ملك but the syntax might likely be في ملك في الأردن. I assume the book takes the written convention of writing words close to their فصحى reflexes which is why it writes فيه. When I write in dialect, I usually write في to mean "there is/there are" and فيه to mean "in it." But there's no standard way of course .

I'm not sure how this would be articulated in say Qur'anic language, but perhaps إنّ الأردن فيه ملك. I don't think that هناك was in use with this meaning back then, but I could be wrong.

As to the topic at hand, yeah فيه, فيها etc. are just the preposition "in" with attached pronouns (in him/it, her/it, etc.).


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## elroy

In MSA, في الأردن فيه ملك sounds wrong and إنّ الأردن فيه ملك sounds awkward.  If I weren't going to use هناك, I would say يوجد في الأردن ملك.

But yes, as Clevermizo said, "fii" is used to mean "there is/are" in colloquial Arabic.  And I would certainly always spell it في!  In fact, until this thread I had no idea it came from فيه.


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## clevermizo

elroy said:


> In MSA, في الأردن فيه ملك sounds wrong and إنّ الأردن فيه ملك sounds awkward.  If I weren't going to use هناك, I would say يوجد في الأردن ملك.
> 
> But yes, as Clevermizo said, "fii" is used to mean "there is/are" in colloquial Arabic.  And I would certainly always spell it في!  In fact, until this thread I had no idea it came from فيه.



That's usually the consensus (and it's been mentioned elsewhere on the forum, I think), but perhaps not of course.

Also, I think I know what book is being referred to above, and it's a book in colloquial Arabic, but allegedly a "high register" colloquial. I "know what that means" but I also don't know what that means, you know? I assume, more borrowings from fus7a? Maybe it's artificial in the book, maybe not. Also, the title "formal spoken Arabic" is kinda misleading - I mean, formal spoken what? Formal spoken Egyptian? Formal spoken Moroccan? Oh well - it's an Arabic textbook in the West. What can you do?

I guess they want to spell "fii" as فيه to have different spelling than say the word for "in." But there's still duplicity, because فيه would, I assume, be their spelling for "in it." So they may as well spell it في. All three are pronounced "fii" anyway, though I think the vowel might be shorter in the word for "in" no?


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## elroy

clevermizo said:


> All three are pronounced "fii" anyway, though I think the vowel might be shorter in the word for "in" no?


 Yes, definitely (in my dialect, anyway).  I can't think of a context in which it would be pronounced with a long vowel.


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## clevermizo

elroy said:


> Yes, definitely (in my dialect, anyway).  I can't think of a context in which it would be pronounced with a long vowel.



If I was going to propose a spelling system, I would use في for "there is/there are", فيه for "in it/him" and just فـ for "in" (like فالبيت rather than في البيت). Is that what people do more or less? Or do people mostly write في البيت?

In Syrian/Lebanese "in" by itself is just بـ which is already an attached prefix in fus7a.


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## elroy

clevermizo said:


> If I was going to propose a spelling system, I would use في for "there is/there are", فيه for "in it/him" and just فـ for "in" (like فالبيت rather than في البيت). Is that what people do more or less? Or do people mostly write في البيت?


 Most people write في البيت. فالبيت looks weird. I have no problem using في for both "in" and "there is/are." Context makes it clear which is meant. 





> In Syrian/Lebanese "in" by itself is just بـ which is already an attached prefix in fus7a.


 In Palestinian Arabic both are used.


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## Abu Rashid

> I have no problem using في for both "in" and "there is/are."


They are in fact the same word are they not?

As far as I understood, the second useage is derived by removing the negation from the construct ما في as in

ما في السموات  وما في الأرض​


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## elroy

Hmm...I'm not sure, but I find the other suggestion - that it comes from فيه - more convincing.


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## clevermizo

elroy said:


> Hmm...I'm not sure, but I find the other suggestion - that it comes from فيه - more convincing.



The real evidence for this is if there exists a dialect which uses this word with this meaning, in which final [-h] is in fact audible. Of this I am not sure. The proposition that it is derived from فيه sounds likely but I have no evidence for it as it is just something I have read in passing either on wikipedia or elsewhere on the internet where it is claimed.


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## Abu Rashid

Since ما في already has the meaning of "There is no..", I think it only follows logically that if people removed the negating particle, they'd end up saying "There is..".

فيه on the other hand doesn't really seem to have any logical path imho. Then again, language doesn't always follow logic, but it seems that the reasoning I gave is just a little more likely.


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## clevermizo

Abu Rashid said:


> Since ما في already has the meaning of "There is no..", I think it only follows logically that if people removed the negating particle, they'd end up saying "There is..".
> 
> فيه on the other hand doesn't really seem to have any logical path imho. Then again, language doesn't always follow logic, but it seems that the reasoning I gave is just a little more likely.




It does have a logical path though - an existential one: in some location there exists X. However, if ما في already has the meaning of "there is not..." in fus7a, then your argument actually sounds better. I didn't know that you could use ما في this way in fus7a Arabic.


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## WadiH

clevermizo said:


> The real evidence for this is if there exists a dialect which uses this word with this meaning, in which final [-h] is in fact audible. Of this I am not sure. The proposition that it is derived from فيه sounds likely but I have no evidence for it as it is just something I have read in passing either on wikipedia or elsewhere on the internet where it is claimed.


 
The  in فيه is indeed pronounced in parts of the Peninsula.


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## clevermizo

Wadi Hanifa said:


> The  in فيه is indeed pronounced in parts of the Peninsula.




There we have it then. Thanks for the clarification.


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## elroy

Abu Rashid said:


> Since ما في already has the meaning of "There is no..", [...]


 That's just the thing; I don't think it does.  

ما في السموات وما في الأرض = What is in Heaven and in/on Earth

(not "there is no Heaven and there is no Earth")


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## Abu Rashid

> It does have a logical path though - an existential one: in some location there exists X.



This is fine, but doesn't really make the case for فيه as the "in" meaning in فيه is the exact same as it is in في (that is ما في without the negation). What I'm interested to know is why the pronoun would need to be attached when there's no need to, in order to explain this useage of the word.



> However, if ما في already has the meaning of "there is not..." in fus7a, then your argument actually sounds better.



Indeed it does, and is used many times in the Qur'an with this meaning. One would also assume that any negative construction could also have the negation particle removed and thereby carry the positive meaning, which I believe is what exists here.

In summary both فيه and ما في are the same word anyway, one having an attached pronoun and the other having a negation particle preceding it. So squabbling over which one is the more likely candidate for the origin of this modern useage is pointless, as they're the same word anyway. But note that the fus7a useage of ما في in this same context and also the fact the vast majority of speakers don't voice any ه on the end indicate there probably never was a ه to begin with, and it has perhaps been tacked on the end in the dialects mentioned by Wadi Hanifa.


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## Abu Rashid

> That's just the thing; I don't think it does



I'm sure I've seen it translated as "There's nothing in the heavens and the earth.."

Perhaps I have misread.


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