# のだ・のです



## lrosa

Hello

I have been trying to understand exactly when it is appropriate to use the のだ・のです form at the end of sentences, and I came across an interesting example. 

In another thread (http:d//forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1465944), 学校に行かなければなりませんよ was translated as "You have to go to school", while:
学校に行かなければならないのですよ was translated as "I have to go to school".

My sense is that in the second sentence, のです is used because the speaker is speaking about himself, and because he is expressing information that is known by him but perhaps not by the listener. Am I right in thinking that the same のです pattern could *NOT *be used to refer to the listener?


Thanks in advance!


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## Wishfull

(あなたは学校に行きたくないと言ってますが）
義務教育の間はすべての日本国民は学校に行かなければならないのですよ

I think your rule is not always correct.


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## lrosa

Thank you for your response, Wishfull! Maybe in your sentence it could be said that the speaker is expressing information that he knows but that he feels the listener might not know (or rather, does not take sufficiently into account)?


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## Starfrown

Hi, Irosa. This is a topic that I myself explored some time ago, and I feel that now I have a fairly good understanding of it.

One major function of のだ is to provide an explanation for something, and may be understood literally as: "It is that..." "The fact is that..." etc. Of course, it may also be used in questions to ask for an explanation. In the latter case, it usually applies to something that the inquiring party _observes_ the other doing.

Another function is to draw the listener into the speaker's affairs, or to provide an emphasis in an attempt to elicit an emotional response from the listener.

Lastly, it may also essentially be used as an imperative. This is a use that you won't find detailed in dictionaries, but I can't tell you the number of times I've heard it in Japanese films. It is very similar to the way in which we English speakers sometimes use a declarative statement with a stressed "will" as a virtual command. Example:

"You _will_ leave immediately." = "Leave immediately (or else)."

I hope the natives will correct me if I am wrong, and perhaps also provide some illustrative examples.



lrosa said:


> 学校に行かなければならないのですよ was translated as "I have to go to school".


I think you can apply the information I've just presented to this sentence. It may mean:

"The reason is that I have to go to school."

For instance, it may answer the question:

どうして映画を見に行かないのですか。
"Why aren't you going to see the movie?"

In many cases, it is simply too cumbersome to translate the のだ, and thus, the sentence will be translated in the same way as the sentence without it.


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## kaito

Starfrown said:


> Lastly, it may also essentially be used as an imperative. This is a use that you won't find detailed in dictionaries, but I can't tell you the number of times I've heard it in Japanese films.



Actually you will find it in the right dictionaries, the resources thread has them.


> (2)意志的な動作を表す語に付いて、その動作主の決意や相手に対する要求などを表す。
> 「なんとしても、この事だけは達成するのだ」
> 「早くここから出て行くんだ」


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## Starfrown

kaito said:


> Actually you will find it in the right dictionaries, the resources thread has them.


I wasn't careful enough in my language. I should have said "some dictionaries." Thanks.

Of course, I had dictionaries printed in English in mind when I made that remark.


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## rukiak

Starfrown said:


> Hi, Irosa. This is a topic that I myself explored some time ago, and I feel that now I have a fairly good understanding of it.
> 
> One major function of のだ is to provide an explanation for something, and may be understood literally as: "It is that..." "The fact is that..." etc. Of course, it may also be used in questions to ask for an explanation.


ex.どうして映画を見に行かないのですか？－これから学校にいかなければならないのです。


Starfrown said:


> In the latter case, it usually applies to something that the inquiring party _observes_ the other doing.


I can't understand your english. Would you pls explain with another words?


Starfrown said:


> Another function is to draw the listener into the speaker's affairs, or to provide an emphasis in an attempt to elicit an emotional response from the listener.


This may be the explanation of the example I provided: 学校に行かなければなりませんので。in another thread to lrosa.
 I provided it imagining the situation in which suddenly I have to tell that I have to go elsewhere(; school) immediately, to someone who I have to inform or to  get consent (; my boss). 
That's the abbreviation of 学校に行かなければなりませんので、失礼します。　( 失礼します　means I'm going to leave here now).
And 学校にいかなければならないのですが（ 、ここを離れてよろしいでしょうか；　implied ）？ is also used, but passively.



Starfrown said:


> Lastly, it may also essentially be used as an imperative. This is a use that you won't find detailed in dictionaries, but I can't tell you the number of times I've heard it in Japanese films. It is very similar to the way in which we English speakers sometimes use a declarative statement with a stressed "will" as a virtual command.


雨が降ったら、窓をしめて、洗濯物を取りこむのですよ。（slightly unnatural? requesting form or imperative sentence is more practical, I think）
大きくなったらお父さんみたいな立派な政治家になるのですよ。（this is natural）


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## Starfrown

rukiak said:


> I can't understand your english. Would you pls explain with another words?


I meant that when のですか is used in questions to ask for an explanation, the person asking the question is usually inquiring about something that he sees the addressee (=相手) doing.


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## lrosa

Starfrown, Kaito, Rukiak, thank you very much for your responses! Starfrown, your three categories of のだ provide a useful perspective. 

I am curious to know whether 学校に行かなければならないのですよ could ever refer to the addressee in any circumstances. Otherwise, it would seem that in this specific case, のですよ can only be used to refer to the speaker or to someone the speaker is sympathising with (for example, if the speaker was explaining why his son can't play with his friend: 息子は学校に行かなければならないのですよ). 

I _think _I can now see the subtle difference between using のですよ and not using it. Just as you said, Starfrown, the use of のですよ suggests strongly that the speaker is offering the preceding sentence as an *explanation*, a reason, whereas the sentence 学校に行かなければなりませんよ seems to be offering *advice*. Am I onto something here, or completely wrong? My sense now is that the versions with and without the nominalizer の would *not* be interchangeable in the eyes of a native speaker, but maybe they could be?


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## rukiak

Hello lrosa.


lrosa said:


> I am curious to know whether 学校に行かなければならないのですよ could ever refer to the addressee in any circumstances. Otherwise, it would seem that in this specific case, のですよ can only be used to refer to the speaker or to someone the speaker is sympathising with (for example, if the speaker was explaining why his son can't play with his friend: 息子は学校に行かなければならないのですよ).


It's natural that it is used to refer to the speaker or to someone the speaker is famillier with. Because whenever you explain something, the explanation always refers to them.



lrosa said:


> My sense now is that the versions with and without the nominalizer の would *not* be interchangeable in the eyes of a native speaker, but maybe they could be?


That is not be interchangeable at least in this case. 

For your information. as to なければならない, you don't express suddenly what you have to do, do you? When you say something using "なければならない", you are involved in some occasion in which you are required to explain something or draw the listener into your affairs, except for the case talking to yourself.
So ending with の／ので／のです etc... is almost inevitable in that case.
Does this make sense? (I hope you do!).


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## lrosa

rukiak said:


> For your information. as to なければならない, you don't express suddenly what you have to do, do you? When you say something using "なければならない", you are involved in some occasion in which you are required to explain something or draw the listener into your affairs, except for the case talking to yourself.
> So ending with の／ので／のです etc... is almost inevitable in that case.
> Does this make sense? (I hope you do!).



Sorry Rukiak, I'm having a little trouble understanding...


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## Starfrown

lrosa said:


> Sorry Rukiak, I'm having a little trouble understanding...


He's saying that one would hardly ever offer up details as to what one is obligated to do without solicitation, either direct or indirect, on the part of another person. Thus, sentences offering up such details will often end in のだ because they will come either as a response to a question, or as an explanation that will obviate an anticipated question.
----
I think you were right earlier when you said that the sentence with ～なければならない but without のだ will often be taken as a general statement. Thus:

学校に行かなければならない。 "One must go to school."

As always, I hope the natives will correct me if I'm wrong.


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## rukiak

Hello, lrosa.

Imagine the situation when you are not alone and say : " I've got to go. " or " I have to finish this by 8 P.M." 

I just come up with the two cases like below.
1. Tell the phrase to the persons in the place.
2. You remember something and exclaim the phrase as a reflex.

On case1, you are exlaining something.

I'm not sure the manner in your country, not sure whether just saying " I've got to go. " without any other conversation replace "good bye".
But in Japan, just " ーなければならない。" doesn't work for that.
In japanese,
"もう帰らないといけない*ので*。　失礼します。／お疲れさまです。／お先に。／バイバイ。"
are practical.

For " I have to finish this by 8 P.M.", we say in Japanese like below in a conversation.　（as long as you use the style"なければならない"）
"８時までにこれを終わらせなきゃいけないのよ。"
or casually "８時までにこれ終わらせないと。"
eｔｃ.
 just saying なければならない。／ないといけない。／ないと駄目。／etc.　are strange for dialogues.

On case2, you tell to yourself. So, なければならない／なくてはいけない／ないと駄目　is redundant. and the persons around would think you are insane as they happens to hear that. 
Instead, you should say なくちゃ。／なければ。／なくては。／ないと。

Is this understandable?


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## lrosa

Hi Rukiak, thank you for your detailed explanation. I understand now. You have assigned 2 possible uses to the phrase "I have to go" - spoken to others, and spoken to oneself. 

When spoken to others in a moderately formal situation, *ので *is used with one of the standard "goodbye" phrases, indicating that "having to go" is the *reason *for one's departure.

When spoken to oneself as a reflex, it would sound slightly bizarre to use ならない／いけない／駄目 because the register of language used in speaking to oneself is the most informal of all. And, in the most informal of situations it is natural to simply say なくちゃ。／なければ。／ないと。

Right?


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## rukiak

Hi lrosa.

Your understanding is same as what I meant.

 By the way, I have to modify something of my #13's description.
For " I've got to go. " in English, the translation in Japanese should be 「行かないと行けないので。」.
 「帰らないといけないので。」 corresponds to "I've got to go home."
( May be you've noticed this fact. )


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## lrosa

Ok, it has become clear that のです is often used in providing explanations about one's own behaviour. Now I'm curious about a situation in which the speaker recounts an event to a listener who was not present at the event.

For example, if the speaker has seen a tennis match on television, which the listener missed, and if he wants to explain to the listener how the match ended by saying "In the end, X just got tired"... Could I translate this as "結局Xは疲れてしまった*のです*”?　I assume that ”結局Xは疲れてしまいました” would also be possible, but perhaps the first option would be more natural/appropriate?


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## rukiak

Hi.
Ｙｏｕ always bring on a difficult question^^.

I think it depends on the course of the speaker's talk.

I think, "結局Ｘは疲れた" sounds bizarre. I can say that "結局負けた。" is often used to describe some sports game.

Ｉ can show you other examples instead:

"Near the end, Ｘ just got tired."  最後のほうで、Xは疲れてしまいました。

”Xは結局、疲れてしまって、２－３で敗れました。” 　（"結局" modifies the verb"敗れました"）


Anyway, のだ、のです seems to not natural for the situation that you mentioned.
結局、負けた。　結局、負けてしまいました。
結局、負けてしまったよ。

When you tell a story,  の is often used with が, for example:

Xは頑張った*の*です*が*、結局負けてしまいました。
（＝Xは頑張りましたが、結局負けてしまいました。）

第一セット、Ｘは５ゲーム連続落とした*の*です*が*、その後、連続ブレークし、７－５で勝ちました。
（＝第一セット、Ｘは５ゲーム連続落としましたが、その後、連続ブレークし、７－５で勝ちました。）


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## lrosa

Haha sorry for the tricky questions!

Did you mean that the combination of 結局 with 疲れた on its own sounded bizarre? I take it that it is necessary to add on a further explanation, as in: "In the end, X got tired *and lost*."

Anyway, it seems that のです does not work in this case - that's what I wanted to find out. Thank you for your tip about using の with が - this is indeed a combination that I have often noticed before. 
I guess the wider uses of のだ、のです will just remain a little bit of a mystery to me for a while longer...


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