# 这种自行车卖得好



## lixiaohejssz

大家好，英语方面我有一个困惑想请大家帮忙, 就是如果我想说“这种自行车卖得好。” 应该怎么说？
当然，我知道有一种说法是正确的：Bikes of this kind sell well. 因为这时bikes是主语，sell用的是复数。但如果我说：

This kind of ________(bike)_______(sell) well. 

"bike"是否既可用单数也可用复数？sell 该用单数还是复数？还是前面用bike时sell用单数，前面用bikes时sell既可用单数也可用复数？
我从网上查了大量的贴子，但感觉答案很乱，说什么的都有，不知哪个更权威。希望大家能解答这个问题。
谢谢！


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## brofeelgood

正确的说法是 This kind of X *sells* well, 因为主语为 this kind, 而非 X.


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## YangMuye

> kind(s) of X


I was told that _kind of_ and _type of_ agree with X in number if X is a countable noun.
But I'm always confused because then it would not be able to express the concept _this kind of bikes_ (plural bikes, but of the same kind)


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## brofeelgood

This kind of bike is... 
These kinds of bike are... 
There are many kinds of bikes... 

Well, they are all valid.  Which one to use depends on the prevailing circumstances and the idea that you're trying to convey.

For example:
Many kinds of bike - the emphasis is on the bike as, say, a general mode of transportation.
Many kinds of bikes - the emphasis is shifted to indicate a large variety of models available.


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## YangMuye

That's very helpful, but you seems to have left out _this kind of bikes_.
Does it mean it's invalid?


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## brofeelgood

YangMuye said:


> That's very helpful, but you seems to have left out _this kind of bikes_.
> Does it mean it's invalid?



According to the "rule", *type of / kind of* has to be followed by what's known as an uncountable noun, or a singular countable noun.

- uncountable noun - I like this kind of music, Trappist ale is a type of beer

- singular countable noun - This kind of book is unsuitable for children (plural = books), This type of bike sells well (plural = bikes).

I don't personally use "this kind of <plural noun>", but I have to say it's fairly common to see and hear it, and only the most pedantic linguists will cringe at the sound of it.


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## yuechu

Personally, "this kind of <plural noun>" sounds incorrect to me. I don't think I've ever heard it/seen it before.


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## Skatinginbc

Indeed, the standard structure is: demonstrative (e.g., this/that) + kind/type/sort of + singular/uncountable noun.  Variations do exist: 
_We are not *that kind of friends*. 
We are not *that kind of people*. _
_Not so, for *this kind of men* must we make most of_ (Thomas More 1478 AD – 1535 AD). 
_I knowe* that sorte of men* ryght well_ (Daus 1560 AD) 
*These kind of **knaves* (Shakespeare: King Lear)

There are different approaches to this structure: 
1. Agreement approach: Every word in that phrase should agree in number.     
This kind of apple ==> "This", "kind", and "apple" are all singular nouns. 
These kinds of apples ==> "These", "kinds", and "apples" are all plural nouns.
2. Adjectival approach: "Kind of" is treated as an adjectival (like 这樣的, an adjectival, in 这樣的人). 
This apple, this (delicious) apple, this (kind of) apple. 
These  apples, these (delicious) apples, these (kind of) apples (Note:  Alternatively, "kind" is treated as a plural form in "these kind of  apples"). 
3. Collective approach: What follows "kind of" should be a mass noun. 
This kind of apple, these kinds of apple ==> "Apple" is used in its collective sense as a mass noun like "water".


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## retrogradedwithwind

^For every possible collocation of “this”, “kind” and “apple”, an approach can be put forward as an explanation.


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## YangMuye

Does _these kind(s) of things_ mean _things of the this same kind_ = _such things_, or _things of these different kinds_?
Because in Chinese, we count kind/type/sort/种 in the same way as we count others things, we think 两种车 is grammatically the same as 两辆车. Thus 这几种车 must have more than one kind/种, just as 这几辆车 has more than one 辆.
Does _kinds of _necessarily mean _different kinds_, or merely an adverb or adjective.


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## Youngfun

原来 these kind 是正确的？长见识了……


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## brofeelgood

*(Indefinite)
*All/Different kinds of things - the scope is all-encompassing and is bounded only by "things". (similar to 每种,种种,所有)
- She is allergic to all kinds of nuts.
- I like all kinds of cars.

*(Definite)
*These kinds of things - the subjects (more than one kind) are defined and can possibly be listed down individually. (这几种)
- She is allergic to these kinds of nuts, namely hazelnuts and cashew nuts.
- I like these kinds of cars - coupes and convertibles but not station wagons.

I would avoid using "these kind of" at any cost. King Lear dates back to the 1600s, and this kind of literature bears little resemblance to modern English.


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## YangMuye

Thank you. So _these kinds of cars_ are _kinds_ rather than _instances_ of cars.
How about noncount nouns like _fruit_, _fish_, _gas_, _coffee_, _bread_, _wine_, _etc_.? Some people add regular -s suffix when they refer to species.
Do you say _apples and bananas are two kinds of fruit or fruits_?
The inconstancy between countable and uncountable nouns is annoying.


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## Skatinginbc

brofeelgood said:


> I would avoid using "these kind of" at any cost. King Lear dates back to the 1600s, and this kind of literature bears little resemblance to modern English.


From the prescriptive point of view, I agree w*i*th you that "_these kind of_" is generally not considered "standard" or "preferred" in contemporary English.  From the descriptive point of view, I'm afraid I have to point out that "_these kind of_" is still alive and kicking in certain modern English dialects.  It even shows up in _The New York Times_, for instance: 
August 17,2008: _Instead of eliciting *these kind of *quotations from Ms. Thomas, Ms. Kennedy lets Jon Stewart do some of the work for her. _http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/18/arts/television/18hele.html
February 26,  2009: "_It is precisely *these kind of* regulations, involving such matters as the  length of a person’s work history or reason for leaving a job, that the  federal government is trying to get the states to change.__" http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/27/us/27govs.html?pagewanted=all
_B_y _the way, "_these kind of_" does not only appear in literature or formal writing.  It is also used in casual conversation by native speakers of certain English dialects.


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## brofeelgood

YangMuye said:


> Thank you. So _these kinds of cars_ are _kinds_ rather than _instances_ of cars.
> How about noncount nouns like _fruit_, _fish_, _gas_, _coffee_, _bread_, _wine_, _etc_.? Some people add regular -s suffix when they refer to species.
> Do you say _apples and bananas are two kinds of fruit or fruits_?
> The inconstancy between countable and uncountable nouns is annoying.



For uncountable nouns, I would personally use it without an "s", but for some reason, it doesn't sound wrong with an "s" suffix either.
- Apples and bananas are two kinds of fruit(s).

However, if the object is immediately after a cardinal (countable) number, then adding an "s" is common.
- I had two coffees this morning.
- I had some coffee this morning.
- I had two cups of coffee this morning.

If the word is a definite article, it's also common to apply the "s" suffix.
- The coffees from this region are highly regarded.


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## brofeelgood

Skatinginbc said:


> From the prescriptive point of view, I agree w*i*th you that "_these kind of_" is generally not considered "standard" or "preferred" in contemporary English.  From the descriptive point of view, I'm afraid I have to point out that "_these kind of_" is still alive and kicking in certain modern English dialects.  It even shows up in _The New York Times_, for instance:
> August 17,2008: _Instead of eliciting *these kind of *quotations from Ms. Thomas, Ms. Kennedy lets Jon Stewart do some of the work for her. _http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/18/arts/television/18hele.html
> February 26,  2009: "_It is precisely *these kind of* regulations, involving such matters as the  length of a person’s work history or reason for leaving a job, that the  federal government is trying to get the states to change.__" http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/27/us/27govs.html?pagewanted=all
> _B_y _the way, "_these kind of_" does not only appear in literature or formal writing.  It is also used in casual conversation by native speakers of certain English dialects.



I don't have an answer to that. It's probably attributed to poor proof-reading? 

If the first article had used "these kinds of quotations" instead, it would have sounded less jarring to the ears.

Have a look at this follow-up to the second article: http://newsok.com/this-kind-of-mistake-common/article/3361167.


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## Skatinginbc

_The 'these kind of' structure is very common in speech, and there are as  many examples of 'these kind of' as there are of 'these kinds of' in  the British National Corpus_ (http://virtuallinguist.typepad.com/...of-questions-or-these-kinds-of-questions.html).

The  follow-up article you cited is titled "This kind of mistake common".  A  "common mistake" from the descriptive point of view is not a "mistake"  after all.  It is considered a "mistake" only from the prescriptive  standpoint, which tends to go in cycles or fashions.


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## Ghabi

Moderator's note: Thanks for the interesting discussion. I think the original poster has been well served. The thread is now closed. Feel free to discuss the niceties of the usage in question in the English Only forum, which exists to serve the purpose of discussing English usage in English. Cf. the following threads, among many others:

these kind(s) of thing(s)
This/these kind/sort of thing/things
These kind of people
I'm not into these kind of girls
kind of /kinds of [music]
kind of food or kinds of foods
Kind of or Kinds of Plural Noun


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