# mens/mind



## mens ex machina

So you all know the phrase "deus ex machina" (god of the machine), but I want to play on it and say "mind of the machine." Is "mens ex machina" correct?

If it is that's unfortunate because it looks like "men sex machine."


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## Cagey

deus ex machina literally means "god _from _a machine" and refers to a stage device used in Greek plays in which a god was lowered onto the stage in a basket, by a 'machine'.  The god resolved the problems raised by the plot.    

It is not clear to me what you intend your paraphrase to mean, so I cannot say whether your version is correct.  Please explain in more detail what you are trying to say.


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## mens ex machina

Cagey said:


> deus ex machina literally means "god _from _a machine" and refers to a stage device used in Greek plays in which a god was lowered onto the stage in a basket, by a 'machine'.  The god resolved the problems raised by the plot.


I know that. I want to play with the phrase to make "mind of the machine," in order to convey a meaning of an internal solution to a problem rather than external. Relying on yourself and your intellect rather than god, specifically.


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## Cagey

_mens ex machina_ would mean "mind from (or coming out of) a machine/ device."  Is this what you are trying to say?  (I'm not sure what "mind of the machine" means to you.  Do you mean the mind belongs to the machine?  That the machine consists of the mind?  Each of these would be said differently, and neither would be "ex machina".)

At least in part, it is the the machine/ device/ contrivance that makes the god an external solution.  If the solution is to come from the mind, _ex mente_ means from the mind.  "deus ex mente" might possibly be understood to mean that the god that resolves things comes out of the mind.


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## mens ex machina

Cagey said:


> _mens ex machina_ would mean "mind from (or coming out of) a machine/ device."  Is this what you are trying to say?  (I'm not sure what "mind of the machine" means to you.  Do you mean the mind belongs to the machine?  That the machine consists of the mind?  Each of these would be said differently, and neither would be "ex machina".)
> 
> At least in part, it is the the machine/ device/ contrivance that makes the god an external solution.  If the solution is to come from the mind, _ex mente_ means from the mind.  "deus ex mente" might possibly be understood to mean that the god that resolves things comes out of the mind.


Ummm I'm trying to convey an image of solving a problem internally, not relying on something external to solve it for you. No deus involved. It would necessarily be a pun on "deus ex machina" and may not make "sense" on its own, so I basically want to know if "mens" is the correct word for "mind" in the sense of intellect. If not, what is?


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## Cagey

mens ex machina said:


> Ummm I'm trying to convey an image of solving a problem internally, not relying on something external to solve it for you. No deus involved. It would necessarily be a pun on "deus ex machina" and may not make "sense" on its own, so I basically want to know if "mens" is the correct word for "mind" in the sense of intellect. If not, what is?



Yes, _mens_ does mean intellect.


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## mens ex machina

great, thanks.


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## brian

If you consider the fact that the _Deus/God_ is the solution to the problem but that it is from a _machina/machine_ (or perhaps in the form of a _machina/machine_) that it arises, you realize that the externality of the solution hinges on the machine, not on the god, as I think Cagey was saying.

In other words, the solution (_Deus/God_) comes from an external, often unexpected and/or unexplained/unexplainable force (_machina/machine_)--both in the physical theater as well as in the context of the play, in ancient Greek times.

With this in mind, "mens ex machina" really doesn't make much sense to me. If anything, it would be just as much external, perhaps suggesting that knowledge/intellect (_mens_) of the solution were somehow connected with/born of an external force (_machina_).

I kind of like _Deus ex mente_ because in modern literary theory (and even in Greek literature, I suppose) the "deux ex machina" solutions don't always involve an actual god, but rather any sort of external, unexplained, and _possibly_ supernatural element, without which the problem never would have been solved. In that sense, _deus = _"solution, resolution," such that _deus ex mente_ = "solution or resolution resulting from the mind or intellect."


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## mens ex machina

Hm. I see. Problem is I don't want the word "god" at all. But I'll consider that.


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## Cagey

mens ex machina said:


> Hm. I see. Problem is I don't want the word "god" at all. But I'll consider that.



Well, maybe you can think of a something that more accurately expresses what you mean: "the solution to a problem" "inspiration" "a way out of difficulty" "victory over obstacles" etc. and we can look for a Latin noun that would carry that meaning.


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## mens ex machina

Well, i dont speak latin at all, and neither do most people in the world, but a lot of people do know what deus ex machina means, or they've at least seen it before, so i'd rather it be a play on the phrase.

Again, I don't explicitly want to say "internal solution," but imply it through a pun on "external solution."

So I guess, had you not read the thread and seen "mens ex machina," what impression would you get of the phrase?


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## Cagey

I would have a hard time making sense of it.  To me it means "mind from a machine", so I would think you were trying to say that you were using a computer for a mind, or something like that.  

But I don't think you want my response,.  I know Latin, and I know what _deus ex machina _refers to, and I know what _mens _means.  You should ask someone who has a more impressionistic sense of the original saying.   The problem is, I don't think someone who doesn't know Latin is likely to associate the word "mens" with mind.  Would you have recognized it, if you hadn't looked up or found it somewhere?  Perhaps _mente_ would be more recognizable. 

Here's one: How about "ex mente, non ex machina".  "From the mind, not from a machine."  Or "non ex machina, sed [ex] mente"  "not from a machine, but [from] the mind."  Would that be close enough?


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## PacoBajito

I think the others are right
To say "mens ex machina" means (at the opposite) that your mind comes EXTERNALLY to solve the probems...even the translation given from others are best. But now the nick has been chosen  and I understand that mens ex machina is much more easier to understand


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## Outsider

mens ex machina said:


> I want to play with the phrase to make "mind of the machine," in order to convey a meaning of an internal solution to a problem rather than external.


Why not "solution _ex mente_"? Or "solution _ex machina_"?

If your audience is familiar with Kant's philosophy, you could try "_a priori_ solution".


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## mens ex machina

> The problem is, I don't think someone who doesn't know Latin is likely to associate the word "mens" with mind.


If they ask I'd say it was a play on deus ex machina. Someone did ask once on a test run and I said mens means mind and they seemed to "get it." Thought it was clever.

I think I'm warming up to "deus ex mente"  now that I have a better understanding that it's the machine that makes the solution external. I think it would still be recognizable, too, I just have to get over using "god." I'll ask around on non Latin-speaking forums and such what they think!


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## Kuestenwache

For internal solution I would suggest:
"suae mente/animo machinae" by the ghost/soul of the machine itself. (I hope I'm not mistake about the declination of suae"


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