# Punjabi: pirch



## panjabigator

From here:


Cilquiestsuens said:


> Nobody seem to know the word *pirch *and where it comes from ???


 
Can we discuss this final question here? Where does it come from?


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## akak

I just wanted to say that in my extended family the word, pronounced *pirich, *is used a lot, exclusively for a saucer that goes with a tea cup. Have no idea about origin. 
A google search yielded this article, that says it's a Portuguese loan word: 


> Balti as a word was introduced in India by the Portuguese. Its original form was balde but we changed it into the more convenient balti. The other Portuguese words we inherited were almari (cupboard), pirich (saucer) and praat (platter). It develops that we didn’t have any pot of our own with a flat bottom!


 
The WordRef dictionary gives the Portueguese word for saucer as _pires_


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## Cilquiestsuens

Good question 

To tell you the truth, I initially thought this was some kind of English word... During recent local elections in Pakistan, the tea cup and saucer were the *intixaabii nishaan* (electoral sign) chosen by a political party, and nobody would call a saucer *rakaabii / tashtarii *(the proper Urdu words), but *pirch*. And I am talking of the Urdu press. 

Look at the following example the article is about a consituency of Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa)




> *اور محمد خان نظر آباد کو پرچ پیالہ کا نشان الاٹ کیا گیا ہے۔*


 

Now, پرچ means something like a rivet in Persian (the transliteration would be *parch*). Could it come from there ?


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## Cilquiestsuens

akak said:


> I just wanted to say that in my extended family the word, pronounced *pirich *is used a lot, exclusively for a saucer that goes with a tea cup. Have no idea about origin.
> A google search yielded this article, that says it's a Portuguese loan word:
> 
> 
> The WordRef dictionary gives the Portueguese word for saucer as _pires_


 

waow, good work, didn't see that. I guess you may be right.

thanks for solving the puzzle!!!


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## akak

Cilquiestsuens said:


> waow, good work, didn't see that. I guess you may be right.
> 
> thanks for solving the puzzle!!!


 
Sure, I spend a lot of time fact-checking...


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## panjabigator

Cilquiestsuens said:


> Good question
> 
> To tell you the truth, I initially thought this was some kind of English word... During recent local elections in Pakistan, the tea cup and saucer were the *intixaabii nishaan* (electoral sign) chosen by a political party, and nobody would call a saucer *rakaabii / tashtarii *(the proper Urdu words), but *pirch*. And I am talking of the Urdu press.
> 
> Look at the following example the article is about a consituency of Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now, پرچ means something like a rivet in Persian (the transliteration would be *parch*). Could it come from there ?



Very interesting!  I'll have to check my Platt's Urdu and 20th Century Urdu dictionaries to confirm.

Perhaps this thread is better suited for the etymology forum, no?


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## Cilquiestsuens

panjabigator said:


> Very interesting! I'll have to check my Platt's Urdu and 20th Century Urdu dictionaries to confirm.
> 
> Perhaps this thread is better suited for the etymology forum, no?


 

I think akak has convincingly solved the question.

I was just amazed by one thing. According to the previous posts of this thread and the previous one, its seems that *pir(i)ch* was unknown to non-PK Urdu speakers and its introduction in Urdu is due to Punjabi influence.

The article mentioned by akak says that *paraat (praat)*, a platter is also from Portuguese. In fact, this word is the standard one here used in Punjabi for a platter (the one in which for instance you knead the dough). I am pretty sure that there is no such word as *paraat* in classical Urdu. What is the word for this utensil in Urdu ?

And how come so many Portuguese words made their way into Punjabi kitchens ???!!!


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## BP.

Cilquiestsuens said:


> ...the tea cup and saucer were the *intixaabii nishaan* (electoral sign) chosen by a political party, and nobody would call a saucer *rakaabii / tashtarii *(the proper Urdu words), but *pirch*. And I am talking of the Urdu press. ...?



Well some of us might not be so integrated in the national vocabularical web! In our household we use _tashtarii _for the saucer but I came to know of the word _pirich _from others.


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## Cilquiestsuens

BelligerentPacifist said:


> Well some of us might not be so integrated in the national vocabularical web! In our household we use _tashtarii _for the saucer but I came to know of the word _pirich _from others.


 
Salut BP,

Well I didn't say everybody in Pakistan uses pirch, and according to my imperfect knowledge, this is a Punjabi word. 

Now I really don't know why the Urdu media used *pirch* all the time instead of *tashtarii* or *rakaabii*.???


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## BP.

Cilquiestsuens said:


> ...according to my imperfect knowledge, this is a Punjabi word...


Well in my case I heard it the first time from a dillii-waalaa from Karachi. Well of course you could argue Dillii is in the Punjab!


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## Cilquiestsuens

BelligerentPacifist said:


> Well in my case I heard it the first time from a dillii-waalaa from Karachi. Well of course you could argue Dillii is in the Punjab!


 
Not really, I am still puzzled though. It seems to be a Hindi word too ????

P.S. : Back home, I just got hold of my _Feroz ul Lughat Urdu Jame'_ (Urdu dictionary) and checked for pirch....

It gives *pirich* as an Urdu word meaning _tashtarii _and tracks its etymology back to Hindi....

While I was at it I checked my Bulky Punjabi-Urdu Lughat and found that they give *pirch* as a Punjabi word too having the same meaning.

In both Urdu and Punjabi the words are feminine....


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## Birdcall

I have heard paraat many times in Mumbai, meaning a large circular thaalii. I didn't realize it was Portuguese, but Mumbai Hindi does use a lot of Portuguese words.


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## Cilquiestsuens

Birdcall said:


> I have heard paraat many times in Mumbai, meaning a large circular thaalii. I didn't realize it was Portuguese, but Mumbai Hindi does use a lot of Portuguese words.


 
Right, nothing surprising for Bombay, I guess Portuguese is still spoken not so far away...

But how come this word is the standard one for this kind of thaal in PK Punjabi, that is more surprisings and speaks volumes about the influence of the Portuguese some time ago in the Subcontinent.


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## panjabigator

Certainly!  We should expand this conversation to see how far this word has penetrated into other subcontinental languages.


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## akak

Cilquiestsuens said:


> Salut BP,
> 
> Well I didn't say everybody in Pakistan uses pirch, and according to my imperfect knowledge, this is a Punjabi word.
> 
> Now I really don't know why the Urdu media used *pirch* all the time instead of *tashtarii* or *rakaabii*.???


 
My family is from eastern UP and they all use _pirich _and, less often, _tashtari_. Though it could be the influence of a large contingent that settled in Bombay in the 40s.


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## drkpp

Cilquiestsuens said:


> I think akak has convincingly solved the question.
> 
> I was just amazed by one thing. According to the previous posts of this thread and the previous one, its seems that *pir(i)ch* was unknown to non-PK Urdu speakers and its introduction in Urdu is due to Punjabi influence.
> 
> The article mentioned by akak says that *paraat (praat)*, a platter is also from Portuguese. In fact, this word is the standard one here used in Punjabi for a platter (the one in which for instance you knead the dough). I am pretty sure that there is no such word as *paraat* in classical Urdu. What is the word for this utensil in Urdu ?
> 
> And how come so many Portuguese words made their way into Punjabi kitchens ???!!!


In Marathi, pa-raat [परात] is a common word used for a large platter or a utensil & also it has the same meaning as in Punjabi i.e. a large platter in which one kneads the dough. Interesting enough...!!!


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## drkpp

Birdcall said:


> I have heard paraat many times in Mumbai, meaning a large circular thaalii. I didn't realize it was Portuguese, but Mumbai Hindi does use a lot of Portuguese words.


  Portuguese ruled Goa for many years. The language used in Goa is Konkani which is, essentially, a dialect of Marathi. Many Portuguese words have entered Marathi through this dialect.


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