# Hindi/Urdu: tikkaa vs. Tikkaa



## Wolverine9

In dictionaries I've only seen tikkaa listed with the meaning "piece of meat"; however, in pronunciation I only hear Tikkaa, never tikkaa.  For example, chicken (or murG) Tikkaa.  Is tikkaa the more correct form or are they somehow completely different words?


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## UrduMedium

For me both in writing and pronunciation it has been _tikkaa_. The only _Tikkaa _I recall is the famous former General Tikkaa Khan of Pakistan


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## greatbear

I have always heard "Tikkaa".


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## marrish

For me, tikkaa. I'm not sure if I heard Tikkaa, leaving the instance mentioned above by UM SaaHib and the English realization of this word.


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## Faylasoof

Is it _tikkaa _or _Tikkaa_? Seems to depend on more than one factor! Originally it was indeed _tikkaa_ as the word is from Persian and that is how we say it in Urdu as well: 

P تکه _tikka_, s.m. A bit, piece, a mouthful; a small piece of flesh, a lump of meat, a slice, a stake, chop, collop:—_tikka-bo__ṭī karnā_ (-_kā_), To cut in pieces, to slice; to make mince-meat (of).

Urduphones, the older and many younger Hindiphones too that I know still pronounce it as ‘_tikkaa_’. But it seems that there was a t -> T shift sometime back amongst some and now I hear both _tikkaa_ and _Tikkaa_! Which is more common? Hard to say. 

As a _foodie_ I keep a tab on recipes! If you search ‘Indian Chicken Tikka’, with added terms ‘Chef Harpal Singh Sokhi’, on youtube, you’ll repeatedly hear him say _tikkaa_. But if you go to 'Khana Khazana September 20 '11 Kasoori Paneer Tikka', you’ll hear chef Sanjeev Kapoor pronounce it as _Tikkaa_! 

Obviously all this is not statistically significant and was never meant to be. I’m just pointing out that both pronunciations can be heard; either one of these from figures who make regular public appearances.

We always say _tikkaa_ and I've always associated _Tikkaa_ with the _jarnail SaaHib_ that UM SaaHib refers to!


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## Qureshpor

Tikkaa for me is not tikkah (piece). The former (in Punjabi) is a piece of jewellery worn by ladies on the forehead. I think the equivalent Urdu/Hindi term would be jhuumar.


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## greatbear

QURESHPOR said:


> Tikkaa for me is not tikkah (piece). The former (in Punjabi) is a piece of jewellery worn by ladies on the forehead. I think the equivalent Urdu/Hindi term would be jhuumar.



That jewelry item is _Tiikaa_ in Hindi; we associate "jhuumar" more with chandeliers.


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## UrduMedium

greatbear said:


> That jewelry item is _Tiikaa_ in Hindi; we associate "jhuumar" more with chandeliers.


In Urdu also _Tiikaa _is used in a similar sense. It could be a stick-on variety (like a _bindi_) or a relatively small piece of forehead jewelry. _jhuumar _on the other hand, is much bigger and elaborate (hanging like a mini chandelier). Good to know _jhuumar _usage for chandelier in Hindi. In Urdu the popular word for chandelier is _faanuus_.


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## Faylasoof

UrduMedium said:


> In Urdu also _Tiikaa _is used in a similar sense. It could be a stick-on variety (like a _bindi_) or a relatively small piece of forehead jewelry. _jhuumar _on the other hand, is much bigger and elaborate (hanging like a mini chandelier). Good to know _jhuumar _usage for chandelier in Hindi. In Urdu the popular word for chandelier is _faanuus_.


 Yes indeed UM SaaHIb! _Tiikaa_ is the word in Urdu too for this piece of jewellery. There is of course _jhuumar_ as well, which, as you suggest, is bigger and more ornate. BTW, in our Urdu a chandelier is a _*jhaaR*_:

H *جهاڙ झाड़ jhāR* [S. झाटः], s.m. A bush, shrub; bushes, bramble, brushwood, scrub, underwood, brake; a kind of arabesque work; a lustre or *chandelier*; ....
(You can see that Platts also mentions lustre as a meaning. As for _faanuus_, we associate this with a special kind of lamp.)

[... and _jhuumar_ we normally associate with these meanings: H جهومر झूमर jhūmar [S. क्षुभ+रः; cf. S. झुमरिः], s.m. A gathering, assembly, company, band; a company of women dancing; .....—an ornament consisting of a number of chains forming a fringe, which is attached to the top-knot (of a woman's head) and falls on the forehead.]

Needless to say, the t -> T shift and the change in the 'i' vowel length, together with an unstressed or stressed ‘k’ produce huge differences in meanings:_ *tikkaa* (_a small piece [of flesh]_)_ _versus_ *Tikkaa* and *Tiikaa* (piece of jewellery) going from Punjabi (former) to Urdu/Hindi (latter).


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> Tikkaa for me is not tikkah (piece). The former (in Punjabi) is a piece of jewellery worn by ladies on the forehead. I think the equivalent Urdu/Hindi term would be jhuumar.


 QP SaaHib, I have heard _*Tikkaa*_ from my Punjabi friends for what we call _*Tiikaa*_, and  they distinguish it from _*tikkaa*_.  Incidentally, we use _*Tiikaa*_ also for _vaccination,_ as well as for the naturally occurring white mark on the forehead of animals like goats, buffaloes, cows and horses!


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## lcfatima

I think Tiika is in the part of the hair and falls in the center of the forehead (some also call it maang Tiika) and jhuumar is suspended slightly to the side and falls to the side of the forehead or the side of the head.

Curious, for those who say chicken tikka, do you say aaluu ki tikki or aaluu ki Tikki? What about like for soap, saabun ki Tikki?


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## Faylasoof

lcfatima said:


> I think Tiika is in the part of the hair and falls in the center of the forehead (some also call it maang Tiika) and jhuumar is suspended slightly to the side and falls to the side of the forehead or the side of the head.
> 
> Curious, for those who say chicken tikka, do you say aaluu ki tikki or aaluu ki Tikki? What about like for soap, saabun ki Tikki?


 Ah! There is a difference in_ tikkaa_ (small piece), and a_ Tikiyaa_ or, for some, _Tikkii_. So for the flat bread / soap bar / it is ٿکيا टिकिया _Tikiyaa, i.e. the flat bread __we have __with aluu is _ٿکيا टिकिया_Tikiyaa _/_ Tikki._ Very different from _tikkaa_, as in _murGh_ (chicken)_ tikkaa_!
(Yes, the _Tiikaa _can refer to the lock of hair that falls on the forehead but we also use the same for the white spot found on the forehead of some cattle and horse - not relevant for a white horse or goat of course!)


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## BP.

It is tikkah in Urdu as the others have already answered, but I'd simply like to conjecture that tikkah became Tikka when it went to London!


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## greatbear

Faylasoof said:


> Incidentally, we use _*Tiikaa*_ also for _vaccination,_ as well as for the naturally occurring white mark on the forehead of animals like goats, buffaloes, cows and horses!



Yes, for us as well. "Tiikaa" is also the commonly used word for tilak. (Also refer http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.2:1:5820.platts). The word has yet another sense: (permanent, fixed) abode; many places in the Himalayas bear this suffix, indicating the place to be an abode of God.


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> BTW, in our Urdu a chandelier is a _*jhaaR*_:
> 
> H *جهاڙ झाड़ jhāR* [S. झाटः], s.m. A bush, shrub; bushes, bramble, brushwood, scrub, underwood, brake; a kind of arabesque work; a lustre or *chandelier*; ....


khelnaa aataa hai ham ko bhii shikaar
par nahiiN zaahid ko'ii TaTTii kii aaR

dil nahiiN raushan to haiN kis kaam ke
sau shabistaaN meN agar raushan haiN jhaaR

Hali


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## Wolverine9

QURESHPOR said:


> khelnaa aataa hai ham ko bhii shikaar
> par nahiiN zaahid ko'ii *TaTTii *kii aaR
> 
> dil nahiiN raushan to haiN kis kaam ke
> sau shabistaaN meN agar raushan haiN jhaaR
> 
> Hali



For the word in bold, I only know of one meaning, lol.  Is that what's meant here too?


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## marrish

^ Ha, ha, I'm afraid it has another meaning, a fence.


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## Qureshpor

Wolverine9 said:


> For the word in bold, I only know of one meaning, lol.  Is that what's meant here too?


"TaTTii" is a thatched screen. There is an idiom.."TaTTii kii aaR meN shikaar khelnaa" with the meaning "adopting underhand means".

With the art and skills of hunting we are familiar
But O Zaahid, there is no screen to provide cover

If the hearts are not enlightened, then what use are
A hundred bed chambers with illuminated chandeliers

"Zaahid" is one of the characters in the classical Ghazal and stands for a religiously devout individual, representing the orthodoxy.


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## UrduMedium

QURESHPOR said:


> "TaTTii" is a thatched screen.



Is this the same as xas kii TaTTii?


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## Faylasoof

^ Yes, but let us get back to tikkaa / Tikkaa!


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