# زغرد، مجاذيب السيدة



## Josh_

Every so often someone comes here claiming that there is no English translation of a certain word.  This is the thread for them!

*زغرد*, it could be argued, is a decidedly difficult word to translate into English. Before I go any further, how would you translate this word in English?

   Here is a passage with the word *زغـردت* taken from a short story called *مشوار *by*يوسف ادريس* :

*... كان مجاذيب السيدة حولهما كالنمل ، وحين زغـردت زبيدة ضاع صوتها في تمتمة الشيوخ وبسملتهم وزقزقة النساء ودوامات الذكر ...*​ 
How would you translate this passage into English?  How would *زغـردت* be translated?


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## cherine

Yes, this is a difficult word, but I remember having seen a French translation of it somewhere some years ago -so unfortunately I can't remember what it was.
I guess it's one of the words that need and explicatory footnote with it.

By the way, we pronounce it with a (t) instead of the (d) the sound produced is called "zaghruuta" (there's a wedding song that says "zaghruuta 7elwa rannet fi betna...")


			
				Josh Adkins said:
			
		

> *... كان مجاذيب السيدة حولهما كالنمل ، وحين زغـردت زبيدة ضاع صوتها في تمتمة الشيوخ وبسملتهم وزقزقة النساء ودوامات الذكر ...*
> 
> 
> 
> How would *زغـردت* be translated?


Oh yeah ? How would _you_ translate magadhib  This is a difficult word too  it requires some cultual knowledge, like many things found in works or writers like Idris (he's a great writer by the way, many believe he deserved that Nobel prize won by Naguib Mahfouz... but that's off-topic, sorry)

Also sorry I couldn't suggest a translation, but the word is really difficult, and expressions like "joy cries" has almost nothing to do with zaghaariit, so I'll prefer waiting for better answers from the others


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## Josh_

> By the way, we pronounce it with a (t) instead of the (d) the sound produced is called "zaghruuta" (there's a wedding song that says "zaghruuta 7elwa rannet fi betna...")


 ma-na 3aarif, itgawwizt fi maSr. smi3t iz-zaghruuta kitiir wa-naTa2taha, aw Hawilt anTa2ha, marra aw marriteen. smi3t khaal ghada yizaghrat kamaan, wi-z-zaghruuta bta3tu kaanit aHsan min iz-zaghruuta btaa3it is-sittaat.




> Oh yeah ? How would _you_ translate magadhib  This is a difficult word too  it requires some cultual knowledge, like many things found in works or writers like Idris (he's a great writer by the way, many believe he deserved that Nobel prize won by Naguib Mahfouz... but that's off-topic, sorry)


 Possible translations for *زغـرد*  might be _to ululate_, or _to make a trilling sound in times of joy (of women)_. Either way, though, a westerner not familiar with this would not understand it. Since there is no acceptable translation, in my opinion, I would transliterate it into English, _zaghruuta,_ and put an explanatory note, like you mentioned, cherine. Even then, I believe someone would have to witness this in order to fully appreciate and understand it.

   Magadhib is like those attracted from the root *ج - ذ - ب* which has the overall meaning of attract – but there is a twinge of craziness. So maybe you could translate it as insane admirers; crazy admirers? I know there must be more to it than that. Those are my thoughts without having cultural knowledge of the word. Tell me if I am right. 

There are actually a lot of words here that need to be understood from a cultural standpoint. I would just translate them and have footnotes. Some of them have already made their way into the English language, just as sheik and dhikr -- although most people still do not understand zhikr.

   I do not have an English translation of the text, so here is my attempt:

    The crazy admirers of the lady were around her like ants, and when zabiida made the zaghruuta[1] her voice was lost to (maybe you could say _drowned out by_) the murmuring recitations and basmala[2] of the sheiks, the chirping of the women, and the continuation of the dhikr[3].

How did I do?


   --------------------------
Possible footnotes
[1]  A trilling sound, usually made by women in times of joy.
[2] The name given to the invocation bi-sm illaah ir-raHmaan ir-raHiim.
[3] Dhikr, which could be loosely translated as remembrance, is the remembrance of God by Muslims decreed in the Quran and composed of repetition of words in praise of God.


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## cherine

Josh Adkins said:
			
		

> smi3t iz-zaghruuta kitiir wa-naTa2taha, aw Hawilt anTa2ha (you don't "pronounce" a zaghruuta. I'd say : 7awelt azaghrat), marra aw marriteen. smi3t khaal ghada beyizaghrat kamaan, wi-z-zaghruuta bta3tu kaanit aHsan min iz-zaghruuta btaa3it is-sittaat. (wa ne3ma'lregal).


 


> Possible translations for *زغـرد* might be _to ululate_, or _to make a trilling sound in times of joy (of women)_. Either way, though, a westerner not familiar with this would not understand it. Since there is no acceptable translation, in my opinion, I would transliterate it into English, _zaghruuta,_ and put an explanatory note, like you mentioned, cherine. Even then, I believe someone would have to witness this in order to fully appreciate and understand it.


I agree with all this.



> Magadhib is like those attracted from the root *ج - ذ - ب* which has the overall meaning of attract – but there is a twinge of craziness. So maybe you could translate it as insane admirers; crazy admirers? I know there must be more to it than that. Those are my thoughts without having cultural knowledge of the word. Tell me if I am right.


You're partly right (the root, the attractness, the insanity). BUT... this is a difficult word not only to translate but also to explain.
Do you know about the sufis ? the "derviches tournants"....
al-magadhiib are jobless people who spend their life in/around the mosques doing nothing, depending on charity, pretending to be so close to God that He almost speaks to them (in their dreams that is)...
As for es-sayyeda, we can't translate it as the lady  (That was cute of you Josh, not laughing at you, but really that's cute). As-sayyeda is either as-sayyeda Nafissa, or As-sayyeda Zaynab (grand daughter and daughter of the Prophet Mohammad) there is a mosque for each of them in Cairo. There's even a whole neighborhood called es-sayyeda.



> There are actually a lot of words here that need to be understood from a cultural standpoint. I would just translate them and have footnotes.


You're right, and I agree with you.



> I do not have an English translation of the text, so here is my attempt:
> 
> The crazy admirers of the lady (I already commented on the magadhib and sayyeda) were around her like ants (I'm not sure about English, but in Egypt we say "like ants" to mean : so so many. So if there's a better alternative in English, you'd better use it), and when zebeida made the zaghruuta[1] her voice was lost to (maybe you could say _drowned out by_) (yes this is good) the murmuring recitations and basmala[2] of the sheiks, the chirping (I don't know this word, so can't comment on it  but zaqzaqa is a figure of speech استعارة comparing women's murmuring/talking to the sound of birds) of the women, and the continuation (dawwama can be whirl or something like this, I think the author is speaking of the bodily movement of the people doing the dhikr, not the dhikr's conitnuation) of the dhikr[3].
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How did I do?
> 
> 
> 
> You did good considering the "cultural" difficulty of the text.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --------------------------
> Possible footnotes
> [1] A trilling sound, usually made by women in times of joy.
> [2] The name given to the invocation bi-sm illaah ir-raHmaan ir-raHiim. (also the continuous repetition of bism'illah)
> [3] Dhikr, which could be loosely translated as remembrance, is the remembrance of God by Muslims decreed in the Quran and composed of repetition of words in praise of God.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Very interesting thread Josh
> Thank you
> 
> P.S. Elroy, maybe you'd like to split the talking about مجاذيب السيدة in another thread. Thank you, and sorry for giving you trouble
Click to expand...


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## elroy

A few comments:



			
				cherine said:
			
		

> the chirping (I don't know this word, so can't comment on it  but zaqzaqa is a figure of speech استعارة comparing women's murmuring/talking to the sound of birds that's exactly what "chirping" is ) of the women, and the continuation (dawwama can be whirl or something like this, I think the author is speaking of the bodily movement of the people doing the dhikr, not the dhikr's conitnuation maybe "spins and turns"?) of the dhikr[3].


 


> P.S. Elroy, maybe you'd like to split the talking about مجاذيب السيدة in another thread. Thank you, and sorry for giving you trouble


 
No need. A simple change in the thread title, to aid with future searches, is enough for me.


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## atito

Josh Adkins said:
			
		

> Possible translations for *زغـرد*  might be _to ululate_, or _to make a trilling sound in times of joy (of women)_. Either way, though, a westerner not familiar with this would not understand it. Since there is no acceptable translation, in my opinion, I would transliterate it into English, _zaghruuta,_ and put an explanatory note, like you mentioned, cherine. Even then, I believe someone would have to witness this in order to fully appreciate and understand it.



I just want to say that there are big differences between egyptian and Arabic!!!
You are speaking about women who *زغـرد *but this is not how we use this verb in arabic!!!!

In the sentence you mentionned Josh, this verb is "une métaphore" ( sorry but it's in frech). it means that we are describing the "sounds" the women produce as the sound of the birds ( how we say this sound in english? thank you  )

What I want to say is that "The normal way to use this verb is with birds! ( it's quite the same as *زقزق )"
 So if you want to translate this sentence I think an English speaker like you can do it in a good way than me as long as you have catched the usage of this verb here. 

Hope it helps you !!!!
*


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## elroy

Bienvenue sur le forum arabe, Atito. 



			
				atito said:
			
		

> I just want to say that there are big differences between egyptian and Arabic!!!
> You are speaking about women who *زغـرد *but this is not how we use this verb in arabic!!!!


 
What variety of Arabic do you speak? We do indeed use this verb this way in Arabic. I'm confused. 

And what do you mean by "differences between Egyptian and Arabic"? Egyptian _is_ Arabic. 




> *So if you want to translate this sentence I think an English speaker like you can do it in a good way than me as long as you have catched the usage of this verb here. *


 
As I mentioned above, the correct translation was Josh's "chirp."

"Une métaphore" = a metaphor


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## Josh_

atito said:
			
		

> I just want to say that there are big differences between egyptian and Arabic!!!
> You are speaking about women who *زغـرد *but this is not how we use this verb in arabic!!!!
> 
> In the sentence you mentionned Josh, this verb is "une métaphore" ( sorry but it's in frech). it means that we are describing the "sounds" the women produce as the sound of the birds ( how we say this sound in english? thank you  )
> 
> What I want to say is that "The normal way to use this verb is with birds! ( it's quite the same as *زقزق )"
> So if you want to translate this sentence I think an English speaker like you can do it in a good way than me as long as you have catched the usage of this verb here.
> 
> Hope it helps you !!!!
> *


I'm not quite sure I understand what you are saying.  The verb *زغـرد *is translated into English as "to produce or utter the zaghaariid (zaghruuta in 3ammiyya)." That is how I represented it in the sentence I translated.


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## Josh_

> chirping (I don't know this word, so can't comment on it  but zaqzaqa is a figure of speech استعارة comparing women's murmuring/talking to the sound of birds) of the women


Chirping is an English word for the sound that birds make. It can also be used to describe women's talking as sounding like birds.



> (dawwama can be whirl or something like this, I think the author is speaking of the bodily movement of the people doing the dhikr, not the dhikr's conitnuation)


I considered that, but since the sentence seems to be saying that her voice was drowned out I chose thought that it must be because of the sounds of the dhikr.


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## atito

Thank you for the answers!

The sentence you gave is written in classic arabic. And when Cherine told you the word " zaghrutta", she refered to the Arabic "speaking" in Egypt and maybe some other coutries but not mine! and there is no relation between those words( zaghrada (a verb) and zaghrutta) as I know. That doesn't exist in Arabic (classic).

Tell me if you don't catch this difference I can explain in details!
would you please mentionne if I make a mistake while writting? thank you !


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## atito

Josh Adkins said:
			
		

> Chirping is an English word for the sound that birds make. It can also be used to describe women's talking as sounding like birds.



You have right Josh ! sorry again !


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## Josh_

> Thank you for the answers!
> 
> The sentence you gave is written in classic arabic. And when Cherine told you the word " zaghrutta", she refered to the Arabic "speaking" in Egypt and maybe some other coutries but not mine! and there is no relation between those words( zaghrada (a verb) and zaghrutta) as I know. That doesn't exist in Arabic (classic).
> 
> Tell me if you don't catch this difference I can explain in details!
> would you please mentionne if I make a mistake while writting? thank you !


I think I see what you mean.  Yeah, I should have put the Modern Standard word zaghaariid *زغاريد* in my translation.  Yet another example why maintaining cultural accuracy is so difficult.


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## cherine

Salut Atito et bienvenue au forum arabe 
what is you country ? how do you call the "zaghrouta" there ? or don't the women of your country make this sound in the first place ?
Yes please explain the difference.
Thank you


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## cherine

Josh Adkins said:
			
		

> Chirping is an English word for the sound that birds make. It can also be used to describe women's talking as sounding like birds.


Thanks for the explanation Josh 
This way, the word chirping is the excellent choice.



> I considered that, but since the sentence seems to be saying that her voice was drowned out I chose thought that it must be because of the sounds of the dhikr.


Excellent explanation again, and very intelligent  . I agree with you


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## elroy

atito said:
			
		

> Thank you for the answers!
> 
> The sentence you gave is written in Classical Arabic. And when Cherine told you the word " zaghrutta", she was referreding to the Arabic "speaking" dialect in Egypt and maybe some other countries but not mine! And there is no relation between those words( zaghrada (a verb) and zaghrutta) as far as I know. That doesn't exist in Arabic (classical).
> 
> Tell me if you don't catch this difference. I can explain in details!
> Would you please mentionne let me know if I have makde a mistake while writting? Thank you !


 
I've made some corrections to your English (which is great, by the way). Please try to use capital letters, though.

I think I see your point. Yes, the verb زغرد, in Classical Arabic, normally refers to a sound made by birds. However, I believe that given the correct context it can indeed be used - in Classical Arabic - metaphorically to describe the sound made by women. I would be surprised if there were an Arab country in which women did not make this sound at weddings and other happy occasions.


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## atito

cherine said:
			
		

> Salut Atito et bienvenue au forum arabe
> what is you country ? how do you call the "zaghrouta" there ? or don't the women of your country make this sound in the first place ?
> Yes please explain the difference.
> Thank you



Merci Cherine ( Ah ça me rappelle la chanteuse elle est forte!! )
I am from morocco but the dialect we speak there is quite different from Arabic ( even some moroccans don't understand it so...  )

I saw in the first answer gived in this topic that a synonym of the word was given in egyptian as if it were in Arabic you know. So I just wanted to clarify the difference.

Apart from that, I agree with all what it was said (my studies were first in Classical Arabic and I hope help people in this forum.

zaghruuta -> tzaghrida ( you see the "d" instead of your "t" and that proves somehow that this word comes from chirp !! ). We also say tzaghritta somewhere else in morocco !

Disfruta la vida loca!


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## atito

elroy said:
			
		

> I've made some corrections to your English (which is great, by the way). Please try to use capital letters, though.
> 
> I think I see your point. Yes, the verb زغرد, in Classical Arabic, normally refers to a sound made by birds. However, I believe that given the correct context it can indeed be used - in Classical Arabic - metaphorically to describe the sound made by women. I would be surprised if there were an Arab country in which women did not make this sound at weddings and other happy occasions.



Don't worry they do make this sound at weddings and even before 

Thank you a lot for the correction (my brother has always told me to use capital letters .... bad habit  )


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## cherine

Atito,
I just want to clear a little misunderstanding : the written word is with a (d), what I said is that in Egypt we pronounce it with (t), that's all. So I was simply telling about a colloquial usage/pronounciation, et non pas le contraire 

Glad to know you're from Morocco, we hope to have Arabic speaking foreros from everywhere.
Bienvenue encore une fois


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## Josh_

I forgot to ask about a few things.


			
				cherine said:
			
		

> Do you know about the sufis ? the "derviches tournants"....


You mean the _whirling dervishes_?  I am familiar with them.  In fact I saw and video recorded a performance when I was in Istanbul.  



> (you don't "pronounce" a zaghruuta. I'd say : 7awelt azaghrat)


I meant naTa2 in the sense of giving voice to, but thanks for the clarification.



> (wa ne3ma'lregal)


Maybe it's your transliteration or something I haven't seen before, but I'm not sure what this means. Did you mean wa ne3ma lilraagil نعمة للراجل ?


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## cherine

Josh Adkins said:
			
		

> You mean the _whirling dervishes_?


Yes, those. al-magaadhiib are like the whirling dervishes, but not as beautiful or fascinating. I'm sorry, I wished I could explain the word better, but this is the best I could. Maybe someone else can do better. Or you'd just come back to Cairo for a tour 



> I meant naTa2 in the sense of giving voice to, but thanks for the clarification.


I understand what you meant. I was just saying that we don't form this idea like this.



> Maybe it's your transliteration or something I haven't seen before, but I'm not sure what this means. Did you mean wa ne3ma lilraagil نعمة للراجل ?


It's ونعم الرجال I meant it sarcasticly. the expression نِعْم is used to praise a person : نِعْمَ الطالب جاش، نعم الصديق إلياس، نعم الفتاة شيرين  
But a man who emitates women is not exactly praisworthy, so I meant it as an irony. And it's commonly used this way, sometimes also it's used only in the short form وَنِعْمَ or in a bit different way : an3im wa akrim أنعم وأكرم . You can hear all these expressions in many Egyptian movies, if you have access to any.


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