# Urdu: If, and only if women are treated equal to men, (then) humanity is just



## Lafz

Hello, I'm looking for a proper *Urdu *rendering of the following sentence, for a poster:
*"If, and only if women are treated equal to men, (then) humanity is just"*
Also if you could have it typed in Urdu, I would be grateful. Thank you all.


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## Qureshpor

Lafz said:


> Hello, I'm looking for a proper *Urdu *rendering of the following sentence, for a poster:
> *"If, and only if women are treated equal to men, (then) humanity is just"*
> Also if you could have it typed in Urdu, I would be grateful. Thank you all.



1) jabhii 3auratoN ke saath suluuk meN mardoN jaisii baraabarii aa'e gii, insaaniyyat meN 3adl-o-insaaf ho gaa. 

2) jab aur sirf jab suluuk meN 3aurat mard kii ham-pallah ho gii, insaaniyyat meN 3adl-o-insaaf ho gaa. 

3) agar aur faqat agar 3aurat ke saath mardoN ke baraabar bartaa'o ho gaa, insaaniyyat meN insaaf kaa bol baalaa ho gaa.

4) jab mard 3aurat ko bhii insaan samjhe gaa, insaaniyyat kaa duusraa naam insaaf ho gaa.


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## UrduMedium

jab tak aurat mard ke barabar nah samjhii jaa'e gii, dunyaa meN insaaf nahiiN hogaa


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## BP.

Do we have in Urdu a similar construct to _iff _(_if_ and only i_f_) that we find all over in books of mathematics? فقطٌ?

Anyway, my attempt:
"Sirf aur Sirf zan wa mard meeN mu3aamalaatii istiwaa kii Suurat meeN iNsaanii mu3aasharah 3aadil oo muqsit kahlaa2ee gaa".


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## marrish

Lafz said:


> Hello, I'm looking for a proper *Urdu *rendering of the following sentence, for a poster:
> *"If, and only if women are treated equal to men, (then) humanity is just"*
> Also if you could have it typed in Urdu, I would be grateful. Thank you all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BelligerentPacifist said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do we have in Urdu a similar construct to _iff _(_if_ and only i_f_) that we find all over in books of mathematics? فقطٌ?
> 
> Anyway, my attempt:
> "Sirf aur Sirf zan wa mard meeN mu3aamalaatii istiwaa kii Suurat meeN iNsaanii mu3aasharah 3aadil oo muqsit kahlaa2ee gaa".
Click to expand...


^Yes, we have; it is _*اگر بشرط اگر *_and it can be used this way:_*

 اگر بشرط اگر عورت و مرد سے پرابری کا سلوک ہوا انسانیت پر عدل کہلائے گی۔*_


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## Alfaaz

Here is a Wikipedia Article on _if and only if_ in Urdu, just in case if anyone's interested. 

My meager attempt (may have mistakes) : 

اگر بشرطِ اگر / اگر و فقط اگر (عورتوں / خواتین / نسواں / زنان / مستورات / حوا کی بیٹیوں) سے مردوں کے (برابر / یکساں / ہم سر / مساوی) سلوک ہو، تو انسانیت (اعدلہ / منصفہ) ہے 
agar bashart-e-agar / agar wa faqat agar (a'urtoN / khawaateen / niswaaN / musturaat / Hawwaa ki betiyoN) se mardoN ke (baraabar / yaksaaN / humsar / musaawi) suluuk ho, to insaaniyat (a'dilah/munsifah) hai

Reasoning : Might serve as a play on words to highlight the important role of women in society; MaaN Hawwaa was a female, insaaniyat is a feminine word, so it should try to become an a'dilah/munsifah (again feminine, as opposed to a'adil/munsif)

سلوکِ) مرد و زن (میں) کے بیچ/ درمیان/ مابین دنیاوی معاملات میں مساوات تامہ ہو، تو معاشرہ/انسانیت/ بنی آدم عادل ہے) 
Suluuk-e-mard-o-zan meiN musaawaat-e-taammah ho, to mu'aashrah /insaaniyat / bani aadam a'adil hai
or 
mard-o-zan ke beech/ darmiyaan / maa bain dunyaawi mu'amalaat mein musaawaat-e-taammah ho, to mu'aashrah /insaaniyat / bani aadam a'adil hai

Reasoning: Here again tried a play on words (with bani aadam a'adil) to perhaps highlight the fact that society is probably somewhat male-dominated...


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## BP.

Thank the both of you.


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## Qureshpor

Alfaaz said:


> Here is a Wikipedia Article on _if and only if_ in Urdu, just in case if anyone's interested.
> 
> My meager attempt (may have mistakes) :
> 
> اگر بشرطِ اگر / اگر و فقط اگر (عورتوں / خواتین / نسواں / زنان / مستورات / حوا کی بیٹیوں) سے مردوں کے (برابر / یکساں / ہم سر / مساوی) سلوک ہو، تو انسانیت (اعدلہ / منصفہ) ہے
> agar bashart-e-agar / agar wa faqat agar (a'urtoN / khawaateen / niswaaN / musturaat / Hawwaa ki betiyoN) se mardoN ke (baraabar / yaksaaN / humsar / musaawi) suluuk ho, to insaaniyat (a'dilah/munsifah) hai.



Pardon my ignorance but to me "agar ba-shart-i-agar" does not make sense. Straight translation yields, "If and on the condition of if"! Or, "If and providing if" which sounds a bit better but still means the same thing. I think "agar va faqat agar" is certainly accurate and meaningful.


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## marrish

I have found this phrase in Wikipedia and I hadn't given it much thought before posting - I'd understood it as ''if and provided if''. _agar va faqat agar_ is very agreeable since it conveys the idea directly.


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## Alfaaz

Qureshpor said:
			
		

> Pardon my ignorance but to me "agar ba-shart-i-agar" does not make sense. Straight translation yields, "If and on the condition of if"! Or, "If and providing if" which sounds a bit better but still means the same thing. I think "agar va faqat agar" is certainly accurate and meaningful.


I found the phrase on Wikipedia and since marrish SaaHib had already posted it, I thought it would make sense and included it in my suggestion. Also, I might be wrong...but in kind of makes sense from a mathematical (theorem) view...
A = B and B = C, then A = C
If and only if B is equivalent to A and C , is A = C true. 
If, on the condition if B is equivalent to A and C, is A = C going to be true! (or maybe not...)

Would members like to comment on my sentence suggestions (any mistakes: grammatical or spelling)?


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## Qureshpor

Alfaaz said:


> If, on the condition *if* B is equivalent to A and C, is A = C going to be true! (or maybe not...)



I would say, "If, on the condition *that* B is...."


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## marrish

My understanding is that this still fits the bill. 

agar [if] (va) ba-shart agar [provided] if = if and only if.


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## Alfaaz

Thanks Qureshpor and marrish SaaHibaan for your replies!


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## Lafz

Thank you all, each one of you for your contribution and sharing your knowledge. This is a very lively forum and member go deep into the matter.

In my original line in English what I like is (and no I'm not asking to replicate the same with Urdu, because each language has its way of 'hitting the nail'), so what I liked was the use of five very big words/concepts in a simple, effective but powerful construction, the five words/concepts being - men, women, equality, justice and humanity. Yes there is an element of precision and urgency by the use of "if and only if" that I intended in the English line and also that the phrase has a nice ring to it.

In urdu all your translations have been great. I will for sure use them.

I wanted also to suggest a formation that would go something like this sh'air 
"Jub tak dahaan-e-zakhm na paida kare koi, mushkil ke tujhse raah-e-sukhan waa kare koi" (ghalib?) so basing on that the line may be something like this (my poor attempt): *Jub tak zan-o-mard mein sulook-e-barbari na kare koi (har koi?), mushkil ke insaaniyat ko musifah kahe koi
*
All your translations are great, but i wanted to make it more impacting and relate-able in Urdu, therefore wnat your suggestion on using this sha'ir format....All your comments are welcome. I look forward to them. And as a gift to you all, I will send you a song which I hope you will all like. Thanks.


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## Lafz

Or an other one based on the sh'air (again my poor rendering)
*"Nabaraabari dar sulook-e-darmiyaan-e-mard-o-zan, ab tak
yeh woh insaaniyat nahi jis ko munsifah kahe koi"
*
Also, if you want to read the entire original ghazal that is inspiring me, it is available with commentary at the website "desertful of roses" by Frances Pritchett, its ghazal 214, (i'm not allowed to post links)


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## Alfaaz

Welcome to the forum Lafz!  I must say that your attempts are great, as they get the point across in a creative manner! (I think I like the first one a little more... "mushkil...koi") Good Luck with your poster!


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## Lafz

Thank you Alfaz, and thank you all beautiful people here.
I'm about to finalise the lines for the poster and wanted your opinion
جب تک  زن و مرد کو برابر نہ سمجھے ہر کوئی 
مشکل کے انسانیت کو منصفہ کہے کوئی 

I wanted to ask a few specific doubts:
1. should I use "zan-o-mard" instead of the usual "mard-o-zan", does it get confusing or does it serve to question the stereotype of 'men first' etc...
2. In the first line again is "samjhe har koi" better than just "samjhe koi", I would prefer the later one...but I would like to ensure it conveys the meaning 'that until EVERYONE considers them equal", if "koi" does that even without "har" then it's fine...
3. also, is there a better term than 'samjhe" I mean here to "consider, treat, or think" them to be equal
4. and once also check my Urdu spelling

Thank you all, how can I share a copy of the poster once it is done??


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## Qureshpor

Lafz said:


> Thank you Alfaz, and thank you all beautiful people here.
> I'm about to finalise the lines for the poster and wanted your opinion
> جب تک زن و مرد کو برابر نہ سمجھے ہر کوئی
> مشکل کے انسانیت کو منصفہ کہے کوئی
> 
> I wanted to ask a few specific doubts:
> 1. should I use "zan-o-mard" instead of the usual "mard-o-zan", does it get confusing or does it serve to question the stereotype of 'men first' etc...
> 2. In the first line again is "samjhe har koi" better than just "samjhe koi", I would prefer the later one...but I would like to ensure it conveys the meaning 'that until EVERYONE considers them equal", if "koi" does that even without "har" then it's fine...
> 3. also, is there a better term than 'samjhe" I mean here to "consider, treat, or think" them to be equal
> 4. and once also check my Urdu spelling
> 
> Thank you all, how can I share a copy of the poster once it is done??



How about ..?

jab tak zan-o-mard ko baraabar nah samjhe ko'ii
kaise mumkin hai insaaniyyat ko munsif kahe ko'ii

Or

jab tak zan-o-mard se baraabar suluuk nah kare ko'ii
phir kaise mumkin hai insaaniyyat ko munsif kahe ko'ii

Or

jab tak zan-o-mard se baraabarii kaa suluuk nah ho
kaise mumkin hai insaaniyyat ko munsif kaheN, kaho!


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## marrish

agar nah suluuk-e musaavii bartaa kare ko'ii
3aurat dunyaa ko pur 3adl pukaaraa kare ko'ii?
_
اگر نہ سلوک مساوی برتا کرے کوئی
عورت دنیا کو پر عدل پکارا کرے کوئی_


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