# All Slavic: "blue" - color, etymology, history



## bragpipes

Slavic languages share many words, especially in core vocabulary.   The names for colors, especially basic colors, do not differ much - black, white, red, green and yellow are very similar between Slavic languages.  However, "blue" is a completely different story.

*Blue:*
sin
plav 
modar
blakitny
belasý
niebieski
goluboj

*1.*
*Modar* was inherited from PIE (modʰros: blue) as blue.  Did this ever exist in East Slavic?   I know that South and West Slavic have it.
Does it mean any particular shade of blue in Czech, Slovak, Slovene, etc?  Or is it just a generic "blue"?

*2.*
Slovak has *belasý* which clearly comes from "white" - does this mean a light shade of blue?  Or is it just generic blue?

*3.*
BCS has *plav*, which is blue or blond (hair), depending on context.   I read that it's originally (PIE, Common Slavic) "pale, light yellow" or even "white" and that "blue" is secondary.   But in terms of blues, BCS would describe this team shirt and this one as "plav" while Russian would not.

*4.*
Then there's *sin*, which is derived from grey and in Polish is grayish blue, while in BCS it can be gray blue but also just gray.   Strangely, in Russian, this is deep blue, not ash or light blue.

*5.*
*Blakitny* was inherited from German and is exclusively baby-blue.

*6*. 
*Niebieski*, "skyish" is obvious what color it is. 

*7.* 
*Goluboj*, pigeon-y/dovey, exists only in East Slavic, as far as I can tell.

--

In Russian, as far as I know, sínnyj and goluboj are two basic colors, like English treats blue and green.  One is not a lighter variant of the other, just as green is not a shade of blue in English (but is in other languages).

When did this distinction happen?  Was this the case in Common Slavic/Proto-Slavic or Proto-Indo-European?  Did Slavic languages at earlier stages make this distinction?  Or is it a Russian/East Slavic innovation?

Was there always a distinction between blues that was lost in other European languages?

*Do other Slavic languages make this distinction at the basic level?*  (i.e. children are taught these colors, red, green, yellow, sinnj, goluboj... not that there are words to describe these shades in the language - English has sky-blue, baby-blue, cyan, navy, azure, etc.)

For languages that borrowed words like blakitny or shifted words from other colors to blue (plav: pale > blue; belasý: white > blue), did the addition or the existence of these words shift the other blue to mean a more darker blue?  For example, Slovak inherited modrý as blue from PIE.  Did the appearance of belasý (from white) change the perception of modrý to a darker shade of blue?  i.e. did it create a sínnyj-goluboj situation?  Or is it just a specific term like English pink, which did not push red to be perceived as darker?


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## ahvalj

*[...]
Mod note: please get a refresher on rule 15*


_*Modrъ _seems to have its only cognate in the Hittite _antaras_ "blue" (_Kloekhorst A · 2008 · Etymological dictionary of the Hittite inherited lexicon: _186), which is not impossible (_*m̥dʰros _for Hittite and _*modʰros _for Slavic) yet not exactly convincing. _Этимологический словарь славянских языков. Праславянский лексический фонд. Выпуск 19 (*męs(’)arь-*morzakъ) · 1992:_ 101–104 leaves it unetymologized. East Slavic has this root only in the Boyko dialects (Boyko - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) where it may be of Polish provenance (_ibidem: _102).

_Siņь_ comes from the same root as _sьjati_ and is cognate e. g. to the English _shine (_*_skʲ>s _in Slavic and_ sk _in Germanic); the original meaning is thus more probably "sky-shining" (cp. your _niebieski_), which color, according to my meteorological observations, may vary from deep blue to any shade of grey, that nicely explains all the variants.

_*Golǫbъ_ exists also in Old Polish, _gołęby_ "greyish, ashy, blue-grey, dove-colored (of horses)", and Serbo-Croatian, _golubijī_ "dove-colored, blue-grey" (_Этимологический словарь славянских языков. Праславянский лексический фонд. Выпуск 6 (*e–*golva) · 1979: _217), as well as in Prussian, _golimban_ "light-blue", and Lithuanian, _gelumbė_ "cloth".

_Белесый~белёсый_ in Russian still means "whitish, albescent".

As far as I understand, there is no way to evaluate the prehistory of these color oppositions in Slavic since other Indo-European branches themselves don't display any clear picture: it seems that the words for colors were being constantly renewed in the languages.


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## Panceltic

In Slovenian, we use *moder/modri* (_*modrъ_) for the colour blue. Colloquially, *plav/plavi* is also used, though I'm not sure whether this is a loan from BCS or not. _Plavolaska_ is a neutral word for a blonde woman.

There is also *sinji* which is reserved for poetic use (sinje nebo, sinje morje, sinje oči). To me, it means a somewhat lighter shade of blue, but that may just be my personal interpretation. 

Incidentally, *moder* also means wise (_*mǫdrъ_) and _modrec_ is an (old) wise man.

In the song _Bit_ by Zmelkoow, there is a pun on this word: _Vseeno se ni zmedla in je še enkrat ponovila / *modri* nasvet in *plava* navodila._ (Still she was not confused and repeated again / the *wise* piece of advice and *blue* instructions.)


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## ahvalj

It appears that the history of many words for colors will turn out more complicated than one can imagine. I have checked three Russian works on the history of color naming, and the examples from the early East Slavic texts (some of these original, others translated) reveal a puzzling picture. For example _siņь(jь)_ often meant "dark, black", like in _синя яко сажа_ "dark/black as soot" or was used to describe the lightning, sea, darkness, wine, iron, Ethiopian, devil or a blue person, or had obscure figurative meanings: _siņi oči_ might be applied to drunkards (_Бахилина НБ · 1975 · История цветообозначений в русском языке: _35–36; _Норманская ЮВ · 2005 · Генезис и развитие систем цветообозначений в древних индоевропейских языках: _243–245).

_*Modrъ_ may be also related to the Germanic _*mađrōn_ "madder" (_Orel VE · 2003 · A handbook of Germanic etymology: _252; _Kroonen G · 2013 · Etymological dictionary of Proto-Germanic: _346; Rubia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia; http://newfs.s3.amazonaws.com/taxon-images-1000s1000/Rubiaceae/rubia-tinctoria-fr-rflogausfaust2.jpg) and to the Latvian _madara_ "bedstraw" (Madaras — Vikipēdija; Galium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.).


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## bragpipes

@Panceltic - I think sinji is considered lighter or ashier in all but East Slavic.   Googling "sinja barva" on image search shows a lighter blue.  A Slovene dictionary lists it as "blue" and "azure" while the wikipedia article on cyan in Slovene is "sinja"  - oddly, the list of colors on that page includes one called sinjemodra (!!).

I looked that up and found:
#20b2aa "lightseagreen" - svetla sinjemodra
#008b8b "darkcyan" temno sinjemodra

On that page, moder is used for most blues, from navy to sky blue.  So sinji is not just essentially cyan, but "cyanish" and can be used to qualify other colors including blue.   So moder and sinji are not in opposition to each other.  Sinjemoder is not as crazy as I thought.


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## bragpipes

Thanks, @ahvalj 

I read that sinji is related to siv (grey).  Is this correct?  That would explain some things (dark as soot, for one) and that would somehow make sense for the languages to split the meaning - _dark_ as soot > dark blue; dark as _soot_ > ashen.  This is just my speculation.

On a side note, I'm opening another thread for _Белесый._


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## ahvalj

bragpipes said:


> I read that sinji is related to siv (grey).  Is this correct?  That would explain some things (dark as soot, for one) and that would somehow make sense for the languages to split the meaning - _dark_ as soot > dark blue; dark as _soot_ > ashen.  This is just my speculation.


Yes, it is related to _sivъ,_ though the latter word is PIE (_*kʲihₑu̯os_ in Balto-Slavic and _*kʲı̯ehₑu̯os_ in Indo-Iranic and Germanic) and thus is separated from the earliest attested Slavic texts by some 3500 years, during which the meaning may have changed several times. In Baltic this word means "grey" (Lithuanian _šyvas _"grey (about horses)", Prussian _sywan_ "grey"), in Indic "(dark) brown (also often about horses)" (Sanskrit _śyāvaḥ_ — Sanskrit Dictionary), in Iranic "black" (Persian _siyåh_ — سیاه - Wiktionary; Ossetic _сау_ — сау - Wiktionary), in Germanic "of some color" (Old English _hāwi~hǣwi~hēawi_ "blue, purple, grey, discolored", obsolete modern English _haw_ "blue, azure, bluish, dull leaden blue; livid" — _Kroonen G · 2013 · Etymological dictionary of Proto-Germanic: _224): what should be its original meaning?


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## Karton Realista

bragpipes said:


> *4.*
> Then there's *sin*, which is derived from grey and in Polish is grayish blue, while in BCS it can be gray blue but also just gray. Strangely, in Russian, this is deep blue, not ash or light blue.


Siny in Polish is the shade of blue of dead people's skin. Grayish blue is kobaltowy. 


bragpipes said:


> *5.
> Blakitny* was inherited from German and is exclusively baby-blue.


But beware, błękit pruski is a much darker shade of blue. 

There is also *granatowy, *which is dark blue, probably coming from the name of the fruit (grenade). Grenade isn't blue, but might have been confused with something.


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## Chrzaszcz Saproksyliczny

Funnily enough, in Silesia, this cabbage is "modra", while in the rest of today's Poland, it's "czerwona", red.
https://s14-eu5.ixquick.com/cgi-bin/serveimage?url=http://kekule.science.upjs.sk/chemia/kuch/kaz/pokus%20modra%20kapusta.jpg&sp=ec37e48d26507ed3e4f6dc59766bca0f"


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## Karton Realista

Chrzaszcz Saproksyliczny said:


> Funnily enough, in Silesia, this cabbage is "modra", while in the rest of today's Poland, it's "czerwona", red.
> https://s14-eu5.ixquick.com/cgi-bin/serveimage?url=http://kekule.science.upjs.sk/chemia/kuch/kaz/pokus%20modra%20kapusta.jpg&sp=ec37e48d26507ed3e4f6dc59766bca0f"


They don't say modra but modro, because that's their feminine ending.
Here's prof. Miodek (for foreigners: he's a famous Polish linguist) trying to explain "why?":
Prof. Jan Miodek o kolorze modrym - LXXI | Publicystyka | raciborz.com.pl Raciborski Portal Internetowy

*Mod note: please use accepted written forms*


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## Morana_

bragpipes said:


> I think sinji is considered lighter or ashier in all but East Slavic. Googling "sinja barva" on image search shows a lighter blue. A Slovene dictionary lists it as "blue" and "azure" while the wikipedia article on cyan in Slovene is "sinja"



Sinji in Slovene is more of a bookish word (not really used in everyday language). It means light blue (or azure, yes) and is commonly used in relation to the sky or sea (sinje nebo, sinje morje). It can also (rarely) be used as an equivalent to blue and sometimes as bluish or greyish. But by no means it could mean cyan - cyan in Slovene would be turkizen - that Wikipedija article you linked is completely wrong.

Here's a quote from SSKJ:


> *sínji*  -a -e prid. (ȋ) *1.* _svetlo moder:_ sinje nebo; ima sinje oči / pesn.: sinje daljave, višave; sinja mesečina; sinje Jadransko morje / sinja barva // knjiž., redko _moder:_ svetlo, temno sinje krilo ∙ knjiž. sinji dim _modrikast, sivkast_; knjiž. njene debele, sinje ustnice _pomodrele_





bragpipes said:


> oddly, the list of colors on that page includes one called sinjemodra (!!)



Yes, that's normal usage - sinji and sinjemoder are equivalents. Sinjemoder is just a longer form of sinji. 



bragpipes said:


> On that page, moder is used for most blues, from navy to sky blue.



Yes, moder means blue and if you want to specify different shades of blue, you will say, for instance, svetlomoder (light blue), temnomoder (dark blue), mornarsko moder (navy blue), sinjemoder (light blue or azure  ) etc.



bragpipes said:


> So sinji is not just essentially cyan, but "cyanish" and can be used to qualify other colors including blue.



Nope, it is essentially a shade of blue (azure, not cyan!) and can't be used to gualify any other colour.



bragpipes said:


> So moder and sinji are not in opposition to each other. Sinjemoder is not as crazy as I thought.



Of course not, they are closely related and, as I said before, sinjemoder is just a longer form of sinji.

Here's a quote from Slovenski etimološki slovar:


> sīnji -a prid. lat.‛caeruleus’ (16. stol.), sinjína.
> 
> Razlaga
> 
> Enako je cslovan. sinь ‛sinji, moder, črn’, hrv., srb. sȋnjī ‛moder, sivkast’, rus. sínij, češ. siný. Pslovan. *si̋n'ь se je razvilo iz *si̋nь, to pa iz *sk'íh2ni- (ali *sk'éi̯h2ni-), kar je izpeljano iz ide. korena *sk'ei̯h2- ‛svetiti se, lesketati se’, iz katerega je še pslovan. *sьja̋ti, sloven. sijáti, pslovan. *si̋nǫti, sloven. síniti. Prvotni pomen je verjetno *‛barve sijočega neba’. K besedotvorju prim. stnord. grø̄nn, stvnem. gruoni, nem. grün, angl. green ‛zelen’, prvotno *‛barve rasti’ ob stnord. gróa, stvnem. gruoen, angl. grow ‛rasti’ (M. S. pri Be III, 236).
> 
> Povezane iztočnice
> 
> Glej tudi siníca in dalje sijáti, síniti, prosȋnec, sẹ̑nca.



So, the original meaning is probably "the colour of the shining sky".


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## Morana_

Blue in Slovene is moder and no, we don't differentiate between different shades of blue at the basic level. Modra barva is, as you say, a generic blue.

SSKJ on moder:


> *móder* 1 -dra -o prid. (ọ́) _ki je take barve kot plavica, jasno nebo:_ moder cvet; tam prevladujejo modri toni; modro morje, nebo; oči ima modre; nebo je postalo črno modro; svetlo modra obleka; temno zelenkasto moder suknjič; moder kot nebo; belo-modro-rdeča zastava _slovenska zastava_ / modre podplutbe, ustnice; otrok je bil moder od vpitja; ekspr. ves moder od zavisti / koncert za modri abonma _abonma z vstopnicami modre barve_



SEM on moder:


> mọ́der1  -dra prid. ‛plav’ = lat.‛caeruleus, lividus’ (18. stol.), modríca, modrína, modrẹ́ti, modrīti, pomodrẹ́ti, pomodrīti.
> 
> Razlaga
> 
> Enako je stcslovan. modrъ ‛moder, plav’, hrv., srb. mȍdar, češ. modrý. Pslovan. *modrъ̏ etimološko ni zadovoljivo pojasnjeno. Beseda je izpeljana s pripono *-rъ, ide. *-ro- kakor pslovan. *rъdrъ̏ ‛rdeč’, *mokrъ̏ ‛moker’. Korenski del je lahko soroden z lit. mãdaras ‛redko (cestno) blato’, lat. madēre ‛biti vlažen’, madidus ‛moker, vlažen’, gr. madáō ‛cedim se, spuščam tekočino (zaradi preobilne vlage)’, stind. madati ‛kipi, je vesel’, máda- ‛opojna pijača’. Če je povezava pravilna, je pslovan. *modrъ̏ prvotno pomenilo *‛vodén, vodene barve’. Druga možnost je povezava s stnord. maðra ‛rastlina Galium verum’, stvnem. matara ‛rastlina Rubia tinctoria’ (ES XIX, 101 ss., Po, 747).




In spoken language, we also use plav, albeit this is strictly colloquial usage and not acceptable in formal language. Plav thus has two meanings in Slovene (SSKJ quote):


> *plàv* 1 in pláv pláva -o prid. (ȁ á; ȃ á) _ki je svetle barve z rumenkastim odtenkom:_ ugajal ji je fant s plavimi lasmi / ekspr. bila je plavo dekle _plavolaso_ / v čredi so imeli plavega bika
> *plàv* 2 in pláv pláva -o prid. (ȁ á; ȃ á) pog. _moder:_ plav avto, lonec; najraje ima svojo plavo obleko; plavo morje, nebo; ima plave oči / ekspr. vsa je plava od modric



SEM on plav:


> plȁv1  pláva prid. ‛blond’ = lat.‛flavus’ (19. stol.), plavolȁs, plavolȃsec, plavolȃska.
> 
> Razlaga
> 
> Prevzeto iz drugih slovan. jezikov, stcslovan. plavъ ‛bel, rumenkast’, hrv., srb. plȃv, rus. polóvyj, češ. plavý ‛blond’. Pslovan. *polvъ̏ je dalje enako z lit. pal̃vas ‛bled’, stvnem. falo ‛rumen’, kar se je prav tako razvilo iz ide. *polu̯o- ‛bled, siv’. Sorodno je tudi lat. pallidus ‛bled’, gr. peliós, poliós ‛temen, siv’ (Be III, 50, Po, 804)
> 
> Povezana iztočnica
> 
> in pri plẹ̑sen navedene besede.


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