# Κυρίως στον προφορικό και στο λογοτεχνικό λόγο



## Helleno File

"Mainly in the spoken or  in literary language". Taken from Anna Iordanidou's book _passim_ to indicate the level of formality of a verb.  My Α', Β', Γ' Γυμνασίου Grammar has something very similar and we see helpful guidance here in the same vein from time to time.

To me this feels very counter-intuitive.  I would expect literary language to be the most formal level of speech, but in fact it is what I would think of (probably mistakenly) as the "middle ground" between spoken and literary Greek that is the most formal. I would _guess_ that is because Katharevousa was more common in newspapers, government (in the widest sense) and business communication.  Can anyone help or comment further?

A correction to my thread title - both ungrammatical and misquoted!   It should be:

"Κυρίως στον προφορικό _*και*_ στο λογοτεχνικό λόγο."

Sorry everyone.


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## ioanell

Helleno File said:


> "Κυρίως στον προφορικό _*και*_ στο λογοτεχνικό λόγο."


I don’t know what exactly you have in mind by saying “To me this feels very counter-intuitive” neither am I aware of this book you’re referring to, but, in my opinion, views such as “I would expect literary language to be the most formal level of speech” or “middle ground" between spoken and literary Greek that is the most formal” are absolutely mistaken, at least in regard with the MoGr language. Surely, katharevousa was more common in newspapers, government (in the widest sense) and business communication, but that was decades ago; there were several writers in previous centuries who wrote their literary works in pure katharevousa, but following the “homogenization” of the language that took place in the 20th century, especially after 1976 with the official prevalence of the demotic language, literary writing by most of contemporary writers, especially in prose, doesn’t noticeably or not at all differ either from the standard language used in newspapers, radio, TV and the internet or the MoGr, common, spoken language.


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## Perseas

Helleno File said:


> "Mainly in the spoken or  in literary language". Taken from Anna Iordanidou's book _passim_ to indicate the level of formality of a verb.


I think the statement of Iordanidou that an informal verb mostly occurs in literature and spoken language is true (If I'm right, this is the case, isn't it?). Literature genres, like fiction, folklore, short tales are not usually characterized by the official variety of a language. Authors may use elements of their idiolect, their dialectal variety or colloquial phrases, especially when they want to depict the language of ordinary people or the language that people use in their "everyday" communication. For example, many great Greek novelists have used elements of their dialectal variety, like Kazantzakis, Papadiamantis (mostly in dialogues), Myrivilis etc. in their books. The literary style (if this is the right term for "λογοτεχνικό ύφος") does not need to be official, like the style you encounter on TV, newspapers, essays etc.


Helleno File said:


> I would _guess_ that is because Katharevousa was more common in newspapers, government (in the widest sense) and business communication.


Is it about "katharevousa" vs "demotic" or "unofficial level of Mod. Gr" vs "official level of Mod. Gr."?


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## Helleno File

ioanell said:


> Surely, katharevousa was more common in newspapers, government (in the widest sense) and business communication, but that was decades ago;





ioanell said:


> ... literary writing by most of contemporary writers, especially in prose, doesn’t noticeably or not at all differ either from the standard language used in newspapers, radio, TV and the internet or the MoGr, common, spoken language.





Perseas said:


> The literary style (if this is the right term for "λογοτεχνικό ύφος") does not need to be official, like the style you encounter on TV, newspapers, essays etc.





Perseas said:


> Is it about "katharevousa" vs "demotic" or "unofficial level of Mod. Gr" vs "official level of Mod. Gr."?


Lots of interesting thoughtful points here. Thanks to both. 

I think you're both reminding me that the language has moved on greatly since 1974 and that the differences in tone/level/formality are considerably reduced.  Which is helpful to hear from native speakers.  

I am still nevertheless struck by the degree of difference between written and spoken Greek, which seems more than in English, or in other languages I have learnt.  I remember once innocently quoting here a phrase from the Greek version of my car handbook and a contributor pointing out that you wouldn't say it that way! (Just when I thought I'd got the hang of it!) In English a car handbook would be very close to the spoken language. 

I expect literary style to be more formal, which may be a British bias, but you are right that it depends on what you mean by "literature" - who wrote it and when. Obviously the historical roots of Greek are very different and I was wondering how much you saw them in contemporary Greek.


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## ioanell

Helleno File said:


> I expect literary style to be more formal, which may be a British bias, but you are right that it depends on what you mean by "literature" - who wrote it and when.


In case there is a misunderstanding, the following might be of help in clarifying at least part of your puzzlement regarding the term “literature” and the formality you thought that goes with it. In English, there are three different meanings of this word, as can be seen in the following lemma drawn from the English LITERATURE | Meaning & Definition for UK English | Lexico.com and probably some of your puzzlement in Greek comes from these three meanings.

*1* Written works, especially those considered of superior or lasting artistic merit.
_‘a great work of literature’_

In Greek, when we say literature [λογοτεχνία], we mean just this, that is works [considered] of superior or lasting artistic merit (which, of course, does not exclusively depend on the language and the way it is used.)

*1.1 *Books and writings published on a particular subject.
_‘the literature on environmental epidemiology’_

In Greek, for this meaning we don’t use the word literature [λογοτεχνία], we normally use the term “βιβλιογραφία”[bibliography] and, in cases, the term “φιλολογία” [philology-in a broader, not just the English sense], which is the science [branch of knowledge] studying both the literary and, more generally, the intellectual production of a nation.

*1.2 *Leaflets and other printed matter used to advertise products or give advice
_‘advertising and promotional literature’_

In Greek, for this meaning we also don’t use the word literature [λογοτεχνία], we just use terms such as “έντυπο υλικό” [printed matter], “διαφημιστικό υλικό” [promotional matter], “[διαφημιστικά] φυλλάδια” [advertising leaflets], or even, pejoratively, “σκουπίδια” [rubbish] or something else.



Helleno File said:


> I remember once innocently quoting here a phrase from the Greek version of my car handbook and a contributor pointing out that you wouldn't say it that way!


Can’t recall this case (if I ever read it), but a car handbook contains a lot of technical terms which may not be known and used in the everyday language and a handbook with technical terms can in no way be characterized as “λογοτεχνικό έργο” [literary work] under the first *1* meaning above.



Helleno File said:


> Obviously the historical roots of Greek are very different


That's sure!



Helleno File said:


> I was wondering how much you saw them in contemporary Greek.


I believe, friend Helleno File, we saw them "very much".


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## Helleno File

Thanks Ioanell for your very full consideration  - you're absolutely right about the varied  uses of the word "literature" in English.  I was using it in your meaning 1, which which corresponds to λογοτεχνία. It's very helpful to have the other equivalents in Greek which would not have occurred to me. 

Βιογραφία is certainly new to me in the sense of the collected writing on a scientific or academic topic. Φιλολογία is a bit of a puzzle to us Brits, including its loan equivalents in  some other WE languages when we use 'philology' to mean strictly γλωσσολογία, as you indicated.  The use of 'literature' for έντυπο υλικό is probably declining nowadays and 'printed matter' is what we are more likely to say.


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## ioanell

Helleno File said:


> Βιογραφία is certainly new to me



Please, Helleno File, watch out! I didn’t say Βιογραφία (<βίος [=ζωή]+ γράφω), which is Biography, I said Βιβλιογραφία (<βιβλίο+γράφω), which is Bibliography, a lemma existing in the English dictionaries.


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## Helleno File

ioanell said:


> Please, Helleno File, watch out! I didn’t say Βιογραφία (<βίος [=ζωή]+ γράφω), which is Biography, I said Βιβλιογραφία (<βιβλίο+γράφω), which is Bibliography, a lemma existing in the English dictionaries.


Oops and thanks! I must need new glasses! 

Bibliography in English has a general and a specific meaning in academic circles. The general use is to refer a person's complete written works.  More often it is the list found at the back of an academic or popular-academic book containing the record of books consulted in the writing of the current book. It may or may not be be part of a formal citation system in the book.  It would not contain journal articles or other sources cited that would be included either as a list of references or as end notes, depending on the system used. 

Is βιβλιογραφία used for this?


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## ioanell

Helleno File said:


> Is βιβλιογραφία used for this?


Although it may be used to refer to a person's complete written works, it is usually the list found at the back of an academic or popular-academic book containing the record of books consulted in the writing of the current book; it may also contain articles written on a relevant subject and published in journals either alphabetically in the same catalogue with the books or in a separate catalogue under the title "Περιοδικά-εφημερίδες". Anyway, it is mostly a matter of the author in what form to present their references and sources.


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