# Dovere + Potere



## Alxmrphi

Right, it might seem like an easy question, but I would like to know a definite answer to this so I can relax

Dovere = to have to / must
Potere = to be able to / can
Dovere + conditional = should
Potere + conditional = could

?


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## Jana337

Alex_Murphy said:


> Right, it might seem like an easy question, but I would like to know a definite answer to this so I can relax
> 
> Dovere = to have to / must
> Potere = to be able to / can
> Dovere + conditional = should
> Potere + conditional = could
> 
> ?


Quite misleading, I am afraid.
Dovere *in* conditional (+ infinitive) = should 
Potere *in* conditional (+ infinitive) = could 

Jana


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## Alxmrphi

lol, pensavo.. "hmmm dov'è il mio post?"
Vediamo se capisco questo adesso, dei essempi...

*Se i denti far male poi dovresti andare in dentista.*
If your teeth hurt then you should go to the dentist
 [I'm not sure if 'dentist' has 'in', like 'in banca' etc]

*Allora, se abbiamo avuto dei soldi poi avremmo avuto molto vino di più*
So, if we had some money then we could have had much more wine.

Forse ci sono dei errori, ma quello che voglio sapere è se io abbia usato "dovere" e "potere" corretamente da tradurre "could" e "should".

Grazie in anticipio.


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## claudine2006

Alex_Murphy said:


> lol, pensavo.. "hmmm dov'è il mio post?"
> Vediamo con degli esempi se ho capito...
> 
> *Se ti fanno male i denti, dovresti andare dal dentista.*
> If your teeth hurt then you should go to the dentist
> [I'm not sure if 'dentist' has 'in', like 'in banca' etc]
> 
> *Allora, se avessimo avuto i soldi, avremmo potuto avere (comprare/bere) molto più vino. *
> So, if we had some money then we could have had much more wine.
> 
> Forse ci sono degli errori, ma quello che voglio sapere è se ho usato "dovere" e "potere" corretamente per tradurre "could" e "should".
> 
> Grazie in anticipio.


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## Jana337

Alex, to my knowledge, you are not yet familiar with the "if" sentences in Italian. If you want to practice the conditional, try to come up with simple sentences like "I should drink less", "I could start learning Polish" etc.

Jana


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## Alxmrphi

I will do that, and post them in a new thread?


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## Jana337

Alex_Murphy said:


> I will do that, and post them in a new thread?


No, perché?  E' lo stesso tema. 

Jana


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## Alxmrphi

Ok... I will do 10 including *could* and 10 including *should*.

* Potrei prendere un caffè - I could have a coffee.

** They could use my dictionary - Potrebbono il mio dizionario.

** Maybe we could have bought those drinks. - Forse potremmo avere comprato quelle bevande

** Could you change this please? - Potresti cambiare questo per favore?

** It could be at the end - Potrebbe alla fine.

** They could have told me that before! - Potrebbono mi avere detto quello prima.

** It could have been better - Potrebbe avere stato meglio (I think this is wrong)*

Ok I can't think of more examples, I will try 'should' now.

* Should we go to the cinema - Dovremmo andare al cinema.

** Why should I do that? - Perchè dovrei fare quello?

** He should have bought more wine - Dovrebbe avere comprato più vino.

** She should listen to her doctor - lei potrebbe ascoltare al suo dottore.

** You should go to school every day - potresti andare alla scuola ogni giorno.*

Are these right?

(Anche, Jana, mi puoi dire di usando le frasi con "se" al inizio?) Grazie.


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## Jana337

You confused could and should in some sentences. Please also review the conjugation, and remember that there always has to be a verb in the infinitive.

Sentences with "could/should have" (i.e. the past) are wrong because you are not familiar with the stuff yet.

Let's talk about them, then. 

Past conditional:

I should sleep - dovrei dormire
I should have slept - avrei dovuto dormire

He could read - potrebbe leggere
He could have read - avrebbe potuto leggere

Quite simple: avere in the conditional + potuto/dovuto + infinitive

If the auxiliary verb is essere, it works exactly the same way.

Esempi:
Sarei dovuto partire già alle 9 ma ho dovuto aspettare.
Ti saresti potuto salvare.
Avremmo dovuto incontrarci alcuni anni prima.

Jana


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## Paulfromitaly

Alex_Murphy said:


> Ok... I will do 10 including *could* and 10 including *should*.
> 
> * Potrei prendere un caffè - I could have a coffee.
> 
> ** They could use my dictionary - Potrebbono potrebbero usare il mio dizionario.
> 
> ** Maybe we could have bought those drinks. - Forse potremmo aver comprato quelle bevande.
> 
> ** Could you change this please? - Potresti cambiare questo per favore?
> 
> ** It could be at the end - Potrebbe essere alla fine.
> 
> ** They could have told me that before! - Potrebbono mi avere detto quello prima. Avrebbero potuto dirmelo prima.
> 
> ** It could have been better - Potrebbe avere stato meglio  Avrebbe potuto essere meglio*
> 
> Ok I can't think of more examples, I will try 'should' now.
> 
> * Should we go to the cinema - Dovremmo andare al cinema?.
> 
> ** Why should I do that? - Perchè dovrei fare quello?
> 
> ** He should have bought more wine - Dovrebbe avere comprato più vino. Avrebbe dovuto compare più vino.
> 
> ** She should listen to her doctor - lei potrebbe dovrebbe ascoltare il suo dottore.
> 
> ** You should go to school every day - potresti  Dovresti andare a scuola ogni giorno.*
> 
> Are these right?
> 
> (Anche, Jana, mi puoi dire di usando le frasi con "se" al inizio?) Grazie.


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## Alxmrphi

Better than I thought, I did mix a few verbs up accidentally, I just got so used to typing them, but you got what I meant (Jana, you did it in your first reply, easy to mix up lol)

And the only big thing I got wrong was the past conditional one, which I think I understand now.

Più esempi!

I could have rented a car. - Avrei potuto noleggiare un'automobile.
I should have investigated it. - Avrei dovuto indagarlo.
I should've returned sooner. - Sarei dovuto ritornato più presto.
I couldn't taste the soup. - Non potrei assaggiare la minestra.
I could not have offended him. - Non avrei potuto offenderlo.
I shouldn't have worn this stupid pink dress! - Non avrei dovuto indossare questo stupido vestita rosa!

2 Questions:

1) To place pronouns, they preceede something, or are appended.
..... mi puoi aiutare / puoi aiutarmi
In these past should have / could have, I have appended all pronouns, if I couldn't, where else would I put them, before the infinitive, or right at the beginning.

2) I looked at some of Jana's examples and saw that her English translations had past tenses, but in the Italian ones, they are infinitives, this is right? Because in my last example, I have wrote "worn" in English, but "indossare" in Italian, this is also correct, right?

Thanks!


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## Jana337

> 1) To place pronouns, they preceede something, or are appended.
> ..... mi puoi aiutare / puoi aiutarmi
> In these past should have / could have, I have appended all pronouns, if I couldn't, where else would I put them, before the infinitive, or right at the beginning.


This will be familiar.
Te lo posso dare. Posso dartelo.
Te l'avrei potuto dare. Avrei potuto dartelo.


> 2) I looked at some of Jana's examples and saw that her English translations had past tenses, but in the Italian ones, they are infinitives, this is right? Because in my last example, I have wrote "worn" in English, but "vestire" in Italian, this is also correct, right?



conditional infinitive participle
could.......have.......given

avrei.......potuto.....dare
conditional participle infinitive

I hope nobody nails me for the slight abuse of the grammar terminology. 

Jana


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## Alxmrphi

Well, is that a yes to my question, the thing you posted, confused me a little.
I just want to be told I am right :'(

(Are my examples correct?)

ahhhh
Could have given
Would have been able to give

It makes sense now Jana! Just tell me my examples are right and I can be happy again! lol


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## moodywop

Jana337 said:


> He could have read - avrebbe potuto leggere


 
*Alex, I don't want to confuse you, so if this too complicated please just ignore it . Other, more advanced learners may be interested in the nuance, though. And it fits into this thread.*

*I'm not sure whether "could have read" is indeed ambiguous in English, as this would suggest:*



> _*Could *is often used in similar ways to* may* and *might*, to talk about the chance of something happening_


M Swan - Practical English Usage - OUP)


_*Now, whether that is true or not (ie whether "could" can mean "might" in Jana's example), we make an important difference in Italian, which often confuses learners:*_

_*Avrebbe potuto leggerlo (he could have read my diary but he didn't - he respected my privacy. Good boy! or The lazy bugger! He could at least have bothered to read my post before criticizing me!)*_

_*Potrebbe averlo letto (there's a chance he may have read it)*_

_*The same with "dovrebbe" vs "avrebbe dovuto":*_

_*Avrebbe dovuto leggerlo (he really should have read it but he didn't bother - I'm not happy with that)*_

_*Dovrebbe averlo letto (I expect he has read it but I'm not sure)*_

_*Brian loves this kind of stuff but he'll be busy packing now... *_


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## Alxmrphi

Ok, yes confused.
I don't want to be confused but I want to know more, no examples or things for me to look at..
But in a general sense, are you saying there are two ways to translate "Could have / should have" and they have slightly different nuances?

I just want to be aware that there isn't a monster lesson I will have to do after, I am happy focusing on the way I have been using in this thread, how many more ways are there to translate this stuff?


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## Alxmrphi

And can someone tell me if my examples are correct, please! lol


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## lsp

> I should've returned sooner. - Sarei dovuto ritornato più presto.
> I couldn't taste the soup. - Non potrei assaggiare la minestra.


These are wrong.


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## Jana337

Alex_Murphy said:


> Ok, yes confused.
> I don't want to be confused but I want to know more, no examples or things for me to look at..
> But in a general sense, are you saying there are two ways to translate "Could have / should have" and they have slightly different nuances?
> 
> I just want to be aware that there isn't a monster lesson I will have to do after, I am happy focusing on the way I have been using in this thread, how many more ways are there to translate this stuff?


Alex, I think that Carlo's concerns are justified: You should try to master the past conditional now, and then proceed to the "if" sentences. Hypotheses and inferences (oh, I don't even know how to call the stuff) can wait, methinks.

Jana


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## Alxmrphi

lsp said:


> I should've returned sooner. - Sarei dovuto ritornato più presto.
> I couldn't taste the soup. - Non potrei assaggiare la minestra.
> 
> 
> 
> These are wrong.
Click to expand...


The soup one I know is in the present, I'll do it in the past now though..

I couldn't have tasted the soup (it was too hot)
Non potrei assaggiato la minestra (era troppo caldo)

As for the second, I don't know, can anybody help me with it please?


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## Jana337

Alex_Murphy said:


> The soup one I know is in the present, I'll do it in the past now though..
> 
> I couldn't have tasted the soup (it was too hot)
> Non potrei assaggiato la minestra (era troppo calda)


Look at the scheme.


> As for the second, I don't know, can anybody help me with it please?


 Look at the scheme. 



Jana


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## claudine2006

Alex_Murphy said:


> The soup one I know is in the present, I'll do it in the past now though..
> 
> I couldn't have tasted the soup (it was too hot)
> Non avrei potuto assaggiare la minestra (era troppo calda)
> 
> As for the second, I don't know, can anybody help me with it please?


Sarei dovuto ritornare prima.


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## kan3malato

Ciao
Ora mi sono incartato anche io 


> He should have bought more wine - Dovrebbe avere comprato più vino. Avrebbe dovuto comprare più vino .(e qui non ci piove)


"(eppure)Dovrebbe avere comprato più vino"( qui si intende, se non sbaglio, che ci dovrebbe essere ancora del vino da qualche parte).
Quindi?:
"He would have bought more wine"? "He would had to buy more wine"(I know they wrong both)


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## Alxmrphi

ahhh, I see.

Sarei dovuto ritornare più presto. ?
And I can't believe I didn't notice the other one, wasn't in "the scheme".. I need to pay more attention to stuff.


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## Snowman75

I think translating "could" can be pretty tricky, because it's used in several different ways.

*If I had a car I could drive. *= *If I had a car I would be able to drive.*
*It could rain tonight. *= *It may/might rain tonight.*
*Yesterday I could see the stars. *= *Yesterday I was able to see the stars.*

As far as I can tell, only the first of these meanings can generally be translated using the conditional of *"potere"*. Can anyone confirm or deny this?

For understanding the use of potere, maybe it would be easier to compare it to the English verb *"to be able"*.

*He would be able to do it.* (He could do it)
*Potrebbe farlo.*

*He would have been able to do it.* (He could have done it)
*Avrebbe potuto farlo.*

*He would be able to have done it. *(He may have done it)
*Potrebbe averlo fatto.*

Hmm... that last one doesn't really work so well in English. But it does show that when you use "to be able" instead of "could", the tenses and meanings match more closely with the Italian versions.

We can get a similar correspondence between *"dovere"* and *"to have to"*, but again the meanings are not exact.

*He would have to do it.* (He should do it)
*Dovrebbe farlo.*

*He would have had to do it.* (He should have done it)
*Avrebbe dovuto farlo.*

*He would have to have done it.* (He probably did it, He must have done it)
*Dovrebbe averlo fatto.*

What do you think? Does this make any sense to anyone else, or is it just me?


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## moodywop

Snowman

It's a bit late over here so I'll just say that, in my opinion, 

*He would have had to do it*

is better translated as "sarebbe stato costretto a farlo", i.e. a third conditional hypothesis is implied:

(if he he had been confronted with the choice) sarebbe stato costretto a....

If I used "avrebbe dovuto" here, it can mean that that's what I think he should have done.

Does this make sense?


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## Snowman75

moodywop said:


> Snowman
> 
> It's a bit late over here so I'll just say that, in my opinion,
> 
> *He would have had to do it*
> 
> is better translated as "sarebbe stato costretto a farlo", i.e. a third conditional hypothesis is implied:
> 
> (if he he had been confronted with the choice) sarebbe stato costretto a....
> 
> If I used "avrebbe dovuto" here, it can mean that that's what I think he should have done.
> 
> Does this make sense?


Yes, it does make sense. You're right - that meaning is quite different between English and Italian. If you have any other thoughts I'll be very interested to hear them tomorrow when you have more time.


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## Alxmrphi

> *Yesterday I could see the stars. *= *Yesterday I was able to see the stars.*



I think translating "could" in English here is fine.
Yesterday I could see the stars.


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## Snowman75

Alex_Murphy said:


> I think translating "could" in English here is fine.
> Yesterday I could see the stars.


What I meant was that you would not translate this using a conditional form of *"potere"*.

*"Ieri potrei vedere le stelle" *

I think it would actually be translated something like this:

*"Ieri potevo vedere le stelle" *

But of course I wait to be judged by the natives.


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## moodywop

Snowman75 said:


> What I meant was that you would not translate this using a conditional form of *"potere"*.
> 
> *"Ieri potrei vedere le stelle" *
> 
> I think it would actually be translated something like this:
> 
> *"Ieri potevo vedere le stelle" *
> 
> But of course I wait to be judged by the natives.


 
Hi there. Only two hours' sleep, I'm afraid, so I'm not much more lucid than when I logged off, but I'll do my best. And I'd rather you didn't get a response from people who may tell you not to bother to learn the Italian past tense or other pearls of wisdom c**p. 
Your excellent questions deserve better.

Your example is dying for some context so let me think one (or two) up:

If I'm saying that last night there was a blackout, with no lights all over town and...

1. I want to stress the unique, unrepeatable opportunity I had to finally see a starry sky, then I would say:

*Finalmente sono riuscito a vedere le stelle*

"Potere" (ho potuto) would be correct here but (whatever the nuance-challenged may say later today) *I* believe we prefer "riuscire" (I was able to/I managed to) here. English people often use "potere" because they are mentally translating from English, esp. in the negative(couldn't).

2. Same scenario but I'm not emphasizing my unique, maybe first and last, being able to see the stars (the uniqueness of that single moment) - rather I'm describing a pleasant situation of which being able to see the stars is an integral part:

Che bello ieri notte! Una pace! Tutti via per ferragosto. Mi sono sdraiato sull'amaca in giardino con un bicchiere di Aglianico. Qui in aperta campagna, senza luci intorno,* potevo vedere* tutte le stelle che c'erano 

Oh, another subtle nuance has just popped into my mind. "Ero in grado di vedere", once again, would be correct here but would just stress my ability to see the stars, as if I was talking about being able to move a limb after physiotherapy - too cold and clinical for such an idyllic night.
And come to think of it "sono stato in grado" would also spoil the effect of 1. for the very same reason. It's flat, matter-of-fact and unemotional.

I love these nuances.


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## Alxmrphi

Love them twice as hard because I am beginning to despise them


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