# Cantonese: 日語



## Whodunit

你好， 

I just stumbled across this Cantonese article about the Japanese language. The title reads 日語 (nĭ yŭ?), but does this mean that "Japanese" means 日 in Cantonese? Strangely, the article continues with 日本語 (I can't pronounce it, but in Japanese it would be _nihon go_) for "the Japanese language" and 日本國 (again, in Japanese it would be _nippon kuni_) for "Japan".

So, is the title just a typo, an abbreviated form, or simply correct? 

唔該。


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## Flaminius

Who, you are a man of wide insterest!!

First off, 日語 is not particularly a Cantonese but a general Chinese expression.  Here 日 is the abbreviation for 日本, *not* that 日 is Japan in Cantonese or in Mandarin.  Other language names with abbreviated country names include: 法語 (French), 英語 (English) and 朝語 (Korean or North Korean in particular).

日本國 (in Japanese script 日本国) means State of Japan and read "nihon koku".


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## J.F. de TROYES

Whodunit said:


> 你好，
> 
> I just stumbled across this Cantonese article about the Japanese language. The title reads (nĭ yŭ?), but does this mean that "Japanese" means 日 in Cantonese? Strangely, the article continues with  (I can't pronounce it, but in Japanese it would be _nihon go_) for "the Japanese language" and (again, in Japanese it would be _nippon kini_) for "Japan".
> 
> So, is the title just a typo, an abbreviated form, or simply correct?
> 
> 唔該。


 
日本國  in Mandarin Chinese is pronounced "ri4 ben3 guo2": "ri4 ben3" means Japan(ese) made up of "ri4'" (the sun) and "ben3" (the root) and "guo2" means "country"

日語  is pronounced "ri4 yu3" and means "japanese language"

I think Cantonese uses the same writing , but pronounces a different way, something like  "yat bóon".


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## BaraniskoDyskoteka

I am learning Chinese...
Not very long time but...
in Mandarin there are these abbreviation: like: 日语。。.
but it seems to be only abbreviation...
and Japan is just : 日本 。。。
maybe they just say sun language and everybody knows what they mean...


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## Whodunit

Flaminius said:


> Who, you are a man of wide insterest!!


 
While you are a man of wide knowledge. 



> First off, 日語 is not particularly a Cantonese but a general Chinese expression. Here 日 is the abbreviation for 日本, *not* that 日 is Japan in Cantonese or in Mandarin. Other language names with abbreviated country names include: 法語 (French), 英語 (English) and 朝語 (Korean or North Korean in particular).


 
So it is common to abbreviate the countries' names if you attach 語. How is 語 pronounced in Cantonese, by the way? I doubt it is "go," too. 



> 日本國 (in Japanese script 日本国) means State of Japan and read "nihon koku".


 
Well, I can't follow your explanation. Is 日本國 pronounced "nihon koku" where "ni hon (日本)" stands for "Japanese" and "koku (國)" for "country"? Why isn't the character 本 left out here as well?


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## Flaminius

In principle, one-word abbreviation can be used with 国 too, as in 法国 and 美国 respectively meaning France and America.  I don't know if 日国 is in use.  Let's wait to hear our Chinese-speaking fellow posters...


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## charlie2

Flaminius said:


> In principle, one-word abbreviation can be used with 国 too, as in 法国 and 美国 respectively meaning France and America. I don't know if 日国 is in use. Let's wait to hear our Chinese-speaking fellow posters...


No, I don't think it always works this way, at least not in the case of Japan. It is just plain old 日本. (By the way, it works with "Germany". In Chinese, it is commonly known as 德de國guo。)
This brings me back to Who's initial question on Cantonese:
Out of curiosity, I checked the official websites of the Japanese Consulate General in Guangzhou (a city where Cantonese is widely spoken as in Hong Kong) and in Hong Kong and found the following :
(a) In both titles (in Chinese) 日本国/國is used, but
(b) in the captions of the texts, 日本国 is used in the Guangzhou site while 日本 is used in the Hong Kong site.
On usage :
In Hong Kong if I tell my friends I am going to 日本國 this Fall for a holiday, they will either think I am trying to show off my knowledge in Japanese or there is something wrong with me which means I do need a holiday.


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## Whodunit

Thanks for the reply, Charlie. 



charlie2 said:


> By the way, it works with "Germany". In Chinese, it is commonly known as 德de國guo。


 
So, does "the German language" mean 德語 in Chinese?



> In Hong Kong if I tell my friends I am going to 日本國 this Fall for a holiday, they will either think I am trying to show off my knowledge in Japanese or there is something wrong with me which means I do need a holiday.


 
Okay, so 日本國 sounds "more Japanese" to you than 日本?


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## charlie2

> So, does "the German language" mean 德語 in Chinese?


Indeed, and you even have an option here : 德文 (wen)(or for that matter 英文 for English﹐法文 for French). It is, I believe, used more in spoken Cantonese.
e.g.In Cantonese we say 我今天去學*德文*。(I am having my German class today.) It will be kind of weird if you say 我今天去學*德語。*
On the other hand, we say 德語 more in Mandarin.
e.g. 學習*德語*很不容易。 (It is not easy to learn German)



> Okay, so 日本國 sounds "more Japanese" to you than 日本?


It is Japanese to me, no more, no less.
In Cantonese, we say 日本.

If I may go back to the abbreviation of the country names :
We can take it further and drop the 國 ﹐which gives e.g.美 for US, 中 for China, etc.
Now you may ask : what about Iran *伊*朗 and Iraq *伊*拉克? Isn't it confusing?No, as we always say, the context will tell. 
How do we describe the war between Iran and Iraq in Chinese ? We call them 兩(= two)伊戰爭 :the war between the two 伊s.


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## konungursvia

In Cantonese, the pronunciation of 日語 is "yaht yu", but this is only the written form, designed to coincide more closely with Modern Standard Chinese (Mandarin), where it is the normal name for the Japanese language used in everyday speech. In Hong Kong, we say Japanese language by using the term "日文" (yaht man). This is considered colloquial, because in written Modern Standard Chinese 日文 properly means the Japanese literature as a whole, not the spoken language.


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## Whodunit

charlie2 said:


> Indeed, and you even have an option here : 德文 (wen)(or for that matter 英文 for English﹐法文 for French). It is, I believe, used more in spoken Cantonese.


 
德文 is pronounced like "de wen?"



> e.g.In Cantonese we say 我今天去學*德文*。(I am having my German class today.) It will be kind of weird if you say 我今天去學*德語。*
> On the other hand, we say 德語 more in Mandarin.
> e.g. 學習*德語*很不容易。 (It is not easy to learn German)


 
Well, this I do pretty well understand, because it is exactly the same in German. You can't say "Es ist nicht leicht, das Deutsch zu lernen," because "das Deutsch" refers to someone's individual language, whereas "das Deutsche" or simply "Deutsch" refers to the language in itself. I guess it must be the same in Cantonese. However, in your first example, 德文 seems to be more an adjective or attribute to "class" (學?) than a noun in itself. Am I on the right track? 



> Now you may ask : what about Iran *伊*朗 and Iraq *伊*拉克? Isn't it confusing?No, as we always say, the context will tell.
> How do we describe the war between Iran and Iraq in Chinese ? We call them 兩(= two)伊戰爭 :the war between the two 伊s.


 
Although this is kind of funny, I do understand it. What do ...朗 and ...拉克 mean then?


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## charlie2

> 德文 is pronounced like "de wen?"


That's correct. 德de2文wen2, to complete the picture.


> ...However, in your first example, 德文 seems to be more an adjective or attribute to "class" (學?) than a noun in itself. Am I on the right track? ...


I will break down the two examples for you to make it easier. 
(1)example in Cantonese: Please note that I have amended 今天 (Mandarin) to read 今日 (Cantonese) 
我 (= I) 今日(=today)去(am going to/ will)學 (literally =learn, but in context, it implies having a class/lesson, so it is a verb) 德文(German﹐a noun)*。*
(2)example in Mandarin
學習(=learning, to learn) 德語 (German)很 (=very)不 (=not)容易(=easy)。
The verb "to be" is implied.


> ... What do ...朗 and ...拉克 mean then?


Umm. These 3 words do mean something in themselves, but not here. They just represent how Iran and Iraq would sound like in Cantonese.
e.g. 伊 in Cantonese is pronounced "yi", which should remind you of "I" in "Iran". Now what about "ran"? As we don't have "r" in Cantonese, we change all "r" to "l", giving us "lan". You guessed it: "朗" sounds like "lan".
Things do get weirder and weirder, don't they?


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## Whodunit

Okay, since we're drifting slightly off-topic, this will be my last reply to German classes and Iran etc. 



charlie2 said:


> (1)example in Cantonese: Please note that I have amended 今天 (Mandarin) to read 今日 (Cantonese)
> 我 (= I) 今日(=today)去(am going to/ will)學 (literally =learn, but in context, it implies having a class/lesson, so it is a verb) 德文(German﹐a noun)*。*
> (2)example in Mandarin
> 學習(=learning, to learn) 德語 (German)很 (=very)不 (=not)容易(=easy)。
> The verb "to be" is implied.


 
Although I can't pronounce your Cantonese sentences (except for "I" and the words you taught me  ), it's interesting to see how a Chinese sentence is made up. 



> Umm. These 3 words do mean something in themselves, but not here. They just represent how Iran and Iraq would sound like in Cantonese.
> e.g. 伊 in Cantonese is pronounced "yi", which should remind you of "I" in "Iran". Now what about "ran"? As we don't have "r" in Cantonese, we change all "r" to "l", giving us "lan". You guessed it: "朗" sounds like "lan".


 
Well, this doesn't answer my question what 拉克 means and is pronounced then. I don't think it's pronounced like "yi laku." 



> Things do get weirder and weirder, don't they?


 
Yes, a bit, but I can still cope with it.


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## konungursvia

Since the title of the thread is Cantonese, I would say the pronunciation of 文 is, rather than wen3, man (mid rising). That's the Cantonese pronunciation of it. In Hong Kong the word means language in general, whereas in Mandarin it means literature and language in a much more academic sense.


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