# name of the letter 'R'



## girl from brazil

I'd like to know if have to say "a r" or "an r", as "r" is pronounced like "r". thanks!


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## Outsider

"An _r_", since the name of this letter is "arre", which starts with a vowel.


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## pickarooney

It only came to my attention recently that in many dialects the name of the 18th letter of the alphabet is 'Ar' as opposed to 'Or'. 

How would you transliterate phonetically the way you pronounce the letter? Can you specify if you pronounce the actual 'r' part (rhotic accents) and roughly what region your accent is from?


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## Copyright

I say* Ar* and definitely pronounce the *R*... from Midwest America.


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## natkretep

I say /ɑ:/ on its own. But the linking 'r' comes in when the next sound is a vowel. I grew up in Kuala Lumpur.


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## Aidanriley

I pronounce it /ɑ:r/, (very rhotically ~ Southern California)


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## Loob

My pronunciation is like Nat's; I'm originally from Somerset.

I'm just wondering, though, picka: isn't this just an accent issue?  I pronounce R with the same vowel sound I use in "farm": do you do something different?


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## Thomas Tompion

Loob said:


> My pronunciation is like Nat's; I'm originally from Somerset.
> 
> I'm just wondering, though, picka: isn't this just an accent issue? I pronounce R with the same vowel sound I use in "farm": do you do something different?


 I'm like Loob, in this regard, and come from South Manchester.  Exactly like the central part of _farm_.


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## Aidanriley

Same here, f*ar*m or *ar*m.


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## pickarooney

Loob said:


> My pronunciation is like Nat's; I'm originally from Somerset.
> 
> I'm just wondering, though, picka: isn't this just an accent issue?  I pronounce R with the same vowel sound I use in "farm": do you do something different?



No, for me it has the same vowel as 'form'.


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## nzfauna

In NZE, we generally pronounce R as "Ah".

Regarding previous posts about the R in farm...

I pronounce farm as "FAHM".


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## jpyvr

Copyright said:


> I say* Ar* and definitely pronounce the *R*... from Midwest America.



This is standard Canadian English too - that is the Canadian generally spoken from Ontario west to British Columbia. It's likely to be different in the Maritimes and Newfoundland.


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## ewie

pickarooney said:


> It only came to my attention recently that in many dialects the name of the 18th letter of the alphabet is 'Ar' as opposed to 'Or'.


Conversely, I only fairly recently (well, within the last 20 years) became aware that Irish English pronounces the letter _r_ as _or_ ... largely thanks to hearing folk say _RTE_: 'or-tee-ee'.

It's [ɑ:] for me too.  East Lancashire (but _posh_).  In Central Lancashire it's [ɑ:r].  The vowel spreads about a bit, sometimes more like [a:].


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## entangledbank

'Or' seems to be Irish only: I've only heard it from an Irishman I work with. It took a while to establish with certainty that it was indeed the NORTH vowel, not START in an Irish accent.


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## sound shift

In Derby, the working class and some of the middle class give words such as "hard" a vowel that is midway between [a:] and [ɔ:]. Presumably this also applies to the pronunciation of the letter 'R'.


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## Oahawhool

Boston accent will sound like 'Ah'


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## Pedro y La Torre

pickarooney said:


> No, for me it has the same vowel as 'form'.


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## A.F.Ferri

jpyvr said:


> This is standard Canadian English too - that is the Canadian generally spoken from Ontario west to British Columbia. It's likely to be different in the Maritimes and Newfoundland.


 
Never heard "or" in my life, nor in the time I've lived in Nova Scotia.


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## Kevin Beach

In my experience, IrEng, particularly from the North, has many instances of "or", where BrE would have "ar" or "ur".

For example:
*Porley* for *Purley/Pearly
**Or* for *our*
*For* for *far*
*Cor pork* for *car park*
*Orly* for *early*

... and so on.


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## relic5.2

And I'm another "or".

I disagree with a lot of Kevin's, at least for my part of Ireland (and especially "cor pork", that's more Ross O'Carrol-Kelley than Irish)


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## pickarooney

Kevin Beach said:


> In my experience, IrEng, particularly from the North, has many instances of "or", where BrE would have "ar" or "ur".
> 
> For example:
> *Porley* for *Purley/Pearly
> **Or* for *our*
> *For* for *far*
> *Cor pork* for *car park*
> *Orly* for *early*
> 
> ... and so on.




None of those sound remotely Irish to me. 'Cor Pork' perhaps, as part of the made up 'D4' accent.


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## Kevin Beach

pickarooney said:


> None of those sound remotely Irish to me. 'Cor Pork' perhaps, as part of the made up 'D4' accent.


Well, I've heard them all from native Irish speakers.


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## Pedro y La Torre

Did you hear these examples from Ulster speakers Kevin? I must admit none of them sound remotely Irish to me either (excluding perhaps the infamous "D4" accent).


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## Aardvark01

In the English Midlands I always pronounce the letter 'r' [ɑ:], but a friend Karen from Larn, County Antrim, we call [kɑ:rn from Lɑ:rn] to mimick her accent and a Scotts/Canadian friend also rolls the 'r' in her name, Mhairi [vɑ:ri:].


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## panjandrum

~~Grin~~
I had to look up D4 accent.
From the Urban Dictionary:D4 
A person from the southside of Dublin, of a wealthy background. Usually  attends a private school such as Mount Anville, Blackrock College,  Terenure College or The High School etc. Clad in O'Neills, designer  jeans or fat man pants; airtex t-shirts with the collars up, Abercrombie  and Fitch hoodies, or other American branded hoodies, or generally just  wearing designer clothing. ​The description matches the Belfast "Cherryvalley" accent, which includes "cor pork" and possibly _or-our_ and _for-far_, but not _porley _or _orly_.

From Wiki:Cherryvalley
Along with neighbouring Stormont and Malone  in south Belfast, Cherryvalley is considered one of Northern Ireland's  most exclusive residential areas with average house prices reaching  £2-3m. ... The residents of the area have long been the subject of jest in  Northern Ireland, being seen to talk with an affected posh accent. This was popularised by the comedian James Young with his "Cherryvalley  Lady" sketch, comparable to the English Hyacinth Bucket.​

None of these strange pronunciations form part of the majority of Northern Irish accents.


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## pickarooney

Are you an AR or an OR man yourself, Panjandrum?


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## Pedro y La Torre

If you want to hear what a D4 accent sounds like, have a look around for clips of this show on the net.

Then compare it to the proper Dublin equivalent.


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## Kevin Beach

Pedro y La Torre said:


> Did you hear these examples from Ulster speakers Kevin? I must admit none of them sound remotely Irish to me either (excluding perhaps the infamous "D4" accent).


Frequently from Northern Irish speakers, Pedro, but I have a strong memory of one southern Irishman (I don't know from which town), who was an AIB manager in the South London area. He was "guilty" of all those I listed, and more.


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## panjandrum

Kevin Beach said:


> Frequently from Northern Irish speakers, ...


In that case you have been listening to emigrants (or others) who try to adjust their accent to match their surroundings.  They don't always do it well


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## Pedro y La Torre

Outsider said:


> "An _r_", since the name of this letter is "arre", which starts with a vowel.



I think I will intervene here, as I had a rather interesting discussion with an American colleague today who pronounces the letter r as ''arre'', however, I, being Irish, pronounce it more like ''orr''.

My American colleague couldn't understand which letter I was referring to until I wrote it out for her. 
I wonder does anyone else pronounce the letter R like this, or is it particular to us Irish?

<<Moderator's note:  I merged this thread with an earlier thread, which led to the repetition discussed below. >>


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## moustic

Being English, I pronounce this letter "ah", so I say -> *an* ah.


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## sound shift

Pedro y La Torre said:


> I think I will intervene here, as I had a rather interesting discussion with an American colleague today who pronounces the letter r as ''arre'', however, I, being Irish, pronounce it more like ''orr''.
> 
> My American colleague couldn't understand which letter I was referring to until I wrote it out for her.
> I wonder does anyone else pronounce the letter R like this, or is it particular to us Irish?


In Derby speech it is between non-rhotic "arr" and non-rhotic "orr".


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## Loob

Pedro y La Torre said:


> I think I will intervene here, as I had a rather interesting discussion with an American colleague today who pronounces the letter r as ''arre'', however, I, being Irish, pronounce it more like ''orr''.
> 
> My American colleague couldn't understand which letter I was referring to until I wrote it out for her.
> I wonder does anyone else pronounce the letter R like this, or is it particular to us Irish?


Hi Pedro

I pronounce the name of the letter "R" in the same way that I pronounce the word "are".  Is your "R" pronounced differently from "are"?


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## Pedro y La Torre

Loob said:


> Hi Pedro
> 
> I pronounce the name of the letter "R" in the same way that I pronounce the word "are".  Is your "R" pronounced differently from "are"?



Yes, it is. It's pronounced almost the same as the word 'or' with emphasis on the final ''rrr'' sound. (Unfortunately I don't yet master the IPA, which would give a more exact representation of what I mean!)


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## Pedro y La Torre

sound shift said:


> In Derby speech it is between non-rhotic "arr" and non-rhotic "orr".



That's interesting. Getting closer to me.


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## ewie

I've only ever heard Irishfolks pronounce it *orr*, Pedro

(Dull Anecdote: This is one of those firsts that I can date very fairly precisely precisely-ish.  Back in the dark ages of the previous millennium, when the UK's tv Channel 4 was in its infancy (circa 1982), they briefly showed RTE's _The Late Late Show_.  The first couple of times it was said I wondered what this /ɔːrtiiː/ thing was: it took a while for the penny to drop that it was _RTE_.  I can't state categorically it was the first time I'd ever _heard_ it, but it was certainly the first time I became _aware _of it.  End of Dull Anecdote)

(P.S. I had the same Twilight-Zoney feeling the first time I heard a Scottishperson pronounce *j* as /ʤaɪ/ (rhymes with _buy_).  Okay I shut ups now.)


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## Pedro y La Torre

ewie said:


> I've only ever heard Irishfolks pronounce it *orr*, Pedro
> 
> (Dull Anecdote: This is one of those firsts that I can date very fairly precisely precisely-ish.  Back in the dark ages of the previous millennium, when the UK's tv Channel 4 was in its infancy (circa 1982), they briefly showed RTE's _The Late Late Show_.  The first couple of times it was said I wondered what this /ɔːrtiiː/ thing was: it took a while for the penny to drop that it was _RTE_.  I can't state categorically it was the first time I'd ever _heard_ it, but it was certainly the first time I became _aware _of it.  End of Dull Anecdote)



I see I am not alone.  
Thanks Ewie, that anecdote was certainly not dull.


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## Pedro y La Torre

Loob said:


> Just to say - I've just found this previous thread, which discusses - I think - the same issue: name of the letter 'R'.



Thanks for that Loob, the same issue indeed (and I had forgotten I had even contributed to that very thread!).


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## ewie

So had I, with the same anecdote, albeit a very abbreviated version


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## boozer

Just to say that I have heard South Africans speak like that. I am still getting used to it though  The other day my colleague entered my office and said: "A friend of mine is selling his ??? corps  [that is what I made of it initially] and I need your advice... " It then turned out the friend was selling his car but I only got that when he mentioned some clutch problems... 

His accent is strictly non-rhotic, unlike yours, Pedro  But his part is port, his car is corps, his par is pour, etc. nonetheless.  And he speaks otherwise excellent English and is bilingual.


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## Loob

I see I asked the same question in answer to the original question as I did in response to this one....

Ah well, at least we're consistent, eh?


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## sound shift

Funnily enough I gave _much_ the same answer in that thread - which doesn't do any harm, I suppose.


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## exgerman

The pronunciation of R as Ah in British English is one of the driving plots of The Lavendar Hill Mob. The French receiver of the stolen gold holds back the shipment labelled A (Ah in her pronunciation) when she should have held back the part labelled R (Ah in the mob's pronunciation).


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## panjandrum

Up here, the pronunciation of _*R *_as *or *is a familiar indicator of a  south-of-Ireland accent.  The archetypical example is RTE, which  southern residents, and those up here who are regular viewers, pronounce  as "_*or-tee-ee*_" and the rest of the universe pronounces as "*are-tee-ee*".


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## Dan2

I realize that not everyone knows IPA and that it can be difficult to describe sounds in words, but I find a thread like this (and there are many like this...) very frustrating.  One person says, in Boston dialect "R" is pronounced "ah"; another person says that in southern England it's pronounced "ah"... yes, but those are very different "ah"s!

Then someone says "The Irish pronounce 'car park' like 'core pork'".  An Irishman responds, "that's ridiculous".  Does anyone consider the possibility that some in Ireland pronounce "car park" in a way that *some others* *perceive *as sounding like "core pork", but is not the way the *Irish *pronounce "core pork"?  This leads to a "yes you do, I've heard it" - "no we don't, I've never heard it" scenario. I see this sort of thing again and again in informal pronunciation discussions:

American: Australians pronounce "Good day" as "Good die".
Australian: No, "die" has a different sound from "day".

Englishman: Americans pronounce "cod" like "card".
American: No, there's no 'r' sound in "cod".

American: The English pronounce "dance" as "donse".
Englishman: No, the vowel of "dance" is not "o".

Bottom line: You can't simply describe a pronunciation in terms of a word or spelling in *your *dialect (and you *do* speak a dialect even if you think not) because that description is likely to be misinterpreted by speakers of *other *dialects.

Now in the case of a non-native speaker asking about the name of the letter R, the situation is a little different.  Here it can be useful to say, "R is pronounced like the 'ar' of 'car or 'farm'".  Note that this doesn't give an *absolute* pronunciation of "R", but it does tell the learner that however people say the 'ar' of words like "car" in the version of English they're learning, that's how they should be saying the letter-name "R".

[There seem to be a couple of exceptions to "R = c*ar* in all dialects", one being pickarooney's report that in his Irish dialect "R" has the "or" of "form", not the "ar" of "farm".  I've also heard the two-syllable pronunciation [ɑrə] from some Americans (I _think_ this is a predominantly African-American pronunciation).]


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