# straniamento



## elenabiserna

How can I translate this word used in an artistic context?

the Italian definition (quote from Wikipedia): Con il termine *straniamento* si indicano tutti quegli interventi sulle forme artistiche che hanno lo scopo di portarle al di fuori da se stesse, rendendole estranee alla loro stessa natura, creando così nei destinatari un senso di alienazione.

Thanks!


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## ronconi

Estrangement?


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## Necsus

Dictionaries suggest _estrangement, alienation_...


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## Tristano

Credo che vadano bene tutti e due, estrangement and alienation.

Tristano


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## Kishu

io userei "estrangement". 
For example: Brecht's dramas get a deep feeling of estrangement across the spectators by the use of particular technical means such the lights, music....."


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## elenabiserna

Thanks to everybody!


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## Lorena1970

Hi,

I needed the correspondent of the Italian word "straniamento" in BE.
Doing some reseraches, I found out that "estrangement" has a negative meaning. As it is explained in the free dictionary

The word "straniamento" is often used in art, design, literature et al, to express something VERY different from a negative feeling of alienation, disaffection etc., I would say in those contexts it means rather the opposite: here is a definition I agree with and for which I am looking for a correspondent word in BE (sorry it is only in Italian).

...definire lo “straniamento” come un “procedimento”, un meccanismo attraverso cui l'arte sa “risuscitare la nostra percezione della vita” nella sua essenza più autentica, contribuendo così a “rendere sensibili le cose” (taken from here )

It is clear that in the case above, "straniamento" means sort of a process that leads to better feel and deeply perceive life and things, thanks, probably, to a lack of rational control and a much higher connection with our sensible soul.

So, in the end: do you think that the meaning of "estrangement" can really match that meaning if used in a proper context, or, as I am afraid of, it is anyway difficult to take it off its negative significance?

*For instance, how does it sound if used in this context "The project is aimed to provoke a sense of joyful estrangement, supposed to increase as much as people walk around experiencing the space"?*

Thank you!

----


Hi,

I have found out that probably "disorientation" could fit in my context, even if it desn't correspond to "straniamento"...sic! 
*"The project is aimed to provoke a sense of* *joyful disorientation*, *supposed to increase as much as people walk around experiencing the space."
*
What do you think???
Thanks.


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## miri

Spero che  questo ti possa essere di aiuto.


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## Lorena1970

Thanks Miri!
I was thinking about Brecht, though note sure to want to subtly suggest that attitude...anyway I will think over it a bit more.
Let's see if other opinions will join us. 

Ciao


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## london calling

Lorena1970 said:


> ...definire lo “straniamento” come un “procedimento”, un meccanismo attraverso cui l'arte sa “risuscitare la nostra percezione della vita” nella sua essenza più autentica, contribuendo così a “rendere sensibili le cose” (taken from here )
> 
> It is clear that in the case above, "straniamento" means sort of a process that leads to better feel and deeply perceive life and things, thanks, probably, to a lack of rational control and a much higher connection with our sensible soul.
> 
> *For instance, how does it sound if used in this context "The project is aimed to provoke a sense of joyful estrangement, supposed to increase as much as people walk around experiencing the space"?*


 

We're still talking about architecture, are we, Lorena?

I agree that estrangement is usually rather negative, although I must say I like your version of it: "joyful estrangement".

_The project aims at creating a sense of joyful estrangement in the spectator which grows as he moves around and experiences/experiments the feeling of space._

However, if you want something different, maybe something along the lines of "deeper perception"/"to deepen perception"?

_The project aims at deepening the spectator's perception of space/renders him more sensitive to the true concept of space...._

Sto pensando ad alta voce!
Jo


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## baldpate

Lorena1970 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have found out that probably "disorientation" could fit in my context, even if it desn't correspond to "straniamento"...sic!


 
I've been thinking about it for a while, but I cannot come up with any better single-word solution than your own "disorientation". 

If you will accept a paraphrase, then perhaps "a joyful sense of being decoupled from reality" may convey the sense. Certainly the periphrastic construction "a joyful sense of being xxx" opens up more possibilities because it is naturally ends with a verbal phrase, xxx, beginnning with a past participle : e.g. "of being _forced to adopt an alien viewpoint_".


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## You little ripper!

Lo, here are a few links connecting *Alienation* and *Estrangement* to art, which might help.

Distancing effect (Wikipedia - redirected from *alienation effect*)

Alienation Estrangment

Alienation and estrangement in art 

Alienation Effect


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## Lorena1970

Thank you all, mates!
Thank you for posting your clever opinions, I really appreciate, also because I learn from different point of views.



> We're still talking about architecture, are we, Lorena?
> 
> I agree that estrangement is usually rather negative, although I must say I like your version of it: "joyful estrangement".
> 
> The project aims at creating a sense of joyful estrangement in the spectator which grows as he moves around and experiences/experiments the feeling of space.
> 
> However, if you want something different, maybe something along the lines of "deeper perception"/"to deepen perception"?
> 
> The project aims at deepening the spectator's perception of space/renders him more sensitive to the true concept of space....
> 
> Sto pensando ad alta voce!
> Jo



Not really architecture as buildings, rather about architectural attitude applied to a site-specific installation...I know, it sounds complicate, and it is. But your suggestions are of great help also because I would like to use expressions in between formal BE and colloqial, contemporary BE. Thank you!!!



> I've been thinking about it for a while, but I cannot come up with any better single-word solution than your own "disorientation".
> 
> If you will accept a paraphrase, then perhaps "a joyful sense of being decoupled from reality" may convey the sense. Certainly the periphrastic construction "a joyful sense of being xxx" opens up more possibilities because it is naturally ends with a verbal phrase, xxx, beginnning with a past participle : e.g. "of being forced to adopt and alien viewpoint".



Thank you Baldpate,paraphrases are always welcome. You are always  wise and creative. Thanks a lot!



> Lo, here are a few links connecting Alienation and Estrangement to art, which might help.


Thank you to you too, Charles. Always clever in suggesting useful links. Great!

Grazie mille davvero a tutti!!!

__________________


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## Lorena1970

Eccomi di nuovo....grrrrrrrr.....sto ammattendo!

"A sense of joyful estrangement – like if we get lost in a labyrinth of mirrors - should affect the public as soon es they enter the space, and increase as much as people walk around experiencing it."

Help!!! How does it sound the new version of my text? Is it correct (spelling & grammar and form as well) Anyone want to express an opinion? THANK YOU! (I am getting really crazy with this job!!!)


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## Murphy

Lorena1970 said:


> Eccomi di nuovo....grrrrrrrr.....sto ammattendo!
> 
> "A sense of joyful estrangement – like if we get getting lost in a labyrinth of mirrors - should affect the public as soon as they enter the space, and increase as much as people walk around experiencing it."
> 
> Help!!! How does it sound the new version of my text? Is it correct (spelling & grammar and form as well) Anyone want to express an opinion? THANK YOU! (I am getting really crazy with this job!!!)


 That corrects the grammar.  As to form, I think your version is as good as anything I could suggest (if not better).


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## Lorena1970

Grazie mille!!!!


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## iszlq

I know this thread is old, but in case someone else stumbles on it and is looking for another possible translation, I would suggest perhaps the English word "dissociation" which tends to have a more psychological meaning. Both "alienation" and "estrangement" suggest being separated physically or mentally from other people. "Dissociation" is a term used more for the separation of a part of the self.

Here is how I saw the word used (the speaker is a psychiatrist):
_
Purtroppo suo fratello sembra aver sofferto di un lieve straniamento._

Any thoughts?


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## Lorena1970

iszlq said:


> _
> Purtroppo suo fratello sembra aver sofferto di un lieve straniamento._



I have the feeling that the meaning here is about feeling apart/separated from the real. If "dissociation" means that, then it should be correct.


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## ronconi

Lorena1970 said:


> I have the feeling that the meaning here is about feeling apart/separated from the real. If "dissociation" means that, then it should be correct.


  I agree. "Straniamento" is a polisemic word: according to context, it can be translated as estrangement, dissociation, displacement, exclusion, ostracism, alienation, incongruity, etc. The basic meaning is to apart from, but in art it is usually employed to signify a novel use of the customary so that it can be perceived as extraneous to common sense and expectations.


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## Lorena1970

*! ! ! ! ! !   N  E  W      Q  U  E  S  T  I  O  N  ! ! ! ! ! ! ! *


Hi all,

In the attempt of being poetic and quick at same time, I have written a sentence (in English, but here I put the Italian version as well) which, at a second glance, I am not sure it reflects the meaning I wanted to convey. The recipient is civilized enough to understand even the smallest nuance of language, so my question is not about my sentence being absolutely correct or not, or being the best way ever to express the Italian sentence,  but it's just a question about my English sentence having, among many possible meanings, at least ALSO THE ONE I WANTED TO CONVEY.

The sentence refers to a writer who is stuck in Italy to complete a long work, and dreams of being in a different place, both to take inspiration from this idea, and because he really would like to be somewhere else, where the recipient of the short text is.

"_*Scrivere *(nel senso di trovarsi fisicamente a scrivere) *in Italia pensando di passeggiare su una spiaggia oceanica. Arte dello straniamento / dell'alienazione*_" (both straniamento and alienazione are good)

"_*Writing in Italy thinking of walking on an Ocean beach. Art of estrangement*_"

My doubt is of course about "*estrangement*" which seems to convey the concept of alienation, but does it convey it in the sense of feeling apart from something we think to belong to (our desires, i.e. the beach), we think correspondent to our true nature in a moment when we are forced to stay in a different place?

I hope I was able to be clear....

Thank you.


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## bobes

Su "estrangement" non so, mi chiedevo però se una frase può reggere tre -ing... forse aggiungerei "and" (Writing in Italy *and* thinking of walking...)??


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## london calling

I was thinking exactly the same thing, Bobes. _Writing in Italy *and* thinking of walking along an oceanfront beach. _

Poi , c'è questo vecchio thread a cui hai partecipato anche tu, Lo, che parla di 'straniamento': forse dovevi aggiungere la tua domanda qui, visto che il tuo problema è proprio 'straniamento', anche se il contesto è diverso....


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## Lorena1970

Grazie. Può essere.
Il mio problema però è sul significato.



london calling said:


> I was thinking exactly the same thing, Bobes. _Writing in Italy *and* thinking of walking along an oceanfront beach. _
> 
> Poi , c'è questo vecchio thread a cui hai partecipato anche tu, Lo, che parla di 'straniamento': forse dovevi aggiungere la tua domanda qui, visto che il tuo problema è proprio 'straniamento', anche se il contesto è diverso....


Grazie Jo, sì ci vuole and ma in realtà la mia frase è leggermente diversa e va bene, diciamo che l'ho camuffata di fretta...
Sì, ma questa domanda mi sembrava diversa, la domanda è "Arte dello straniamento" e come è scritto nell'altro thread, "straniamento" è cambia molto in inglese a seconda dei contesti, e comunque "alienation" mi è stato detto da poco che non va assolutamente bene per il rendere straniamento come la sensazione di essere in un luogo diverso da quello in cui ci si trova o la capacità di pensarsi in un luogo diverso dal quale ci si trova o il senso di distacco dal luogo in cui ci si trova contemporaneo alla capacità di immedesimarsi in un altro luogo....in ogni caso, scrivo a mods decideranno loro.


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## rrose17

Ciao maybe
_Writing in Italy while thinking of walking along a beach on the ocean. The art of detachment._


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## johngiovanni

How intentional is this "straniamento"?  Does "self-distancing" get close?  But "we are _forced to _stay in a different place..."
I think you do need the article in English: "The art of..."
So, il mio tentativo:

A writer in Italy, a stranger on the shore: the art of alienation.


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## Benzene

_Avete trovato "distancing effect"? 

*Qui:* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distancing_effect

Bye,
_
*Benzene*


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## Lorena1970

Grazie Benzene! Esattamente da li avevo preso "estrangement" perché il mio utilizzo voleva essere una citazione subliminale di QUEL tipo di straniamento (Brecht), ma non mi ricordavo più da dove avevo preso il termine, l'ho memorizzato e basta. Poi mi sono venuti i dubbi dopo averlo scritto...

Thank you guys!
@rrose17 yes I suppose "the" is necessary but it was sort of poetic short composition (haiku), so it was cut. But thanks for the future! "detachment"? I don't know. It sounds more like "distacco" whilst the "straniamento" is a different thing. Also "alienazione" doesn't work so much in Italian, I have mentioned it to help you all understand, but it's not that good.

@johngiovanni  I am afraid "alienation" doesn't work. Don't ask me why as I don't know, but I recently discussed about these kind of concepts - like being in a place feeling like if you are in a different one, or seeing something that transports you in a different world etc. and I have been told by a BE native that "alienation" doesn't convey these feelings. That's what I know.... I think the reason is because it must suggest Brecht concept, which is expressed by "estrangement" in English. That's always the same problem: Brecht concept is translated mainly with "estrangement" but also with "alienation" and it is never clear which one is what. My vision is that "estrangement" is necessary to develop the feeling of "alienation", so the two words do not reflect the same thing, as one described the quick unconscious feeling (estrangement) and the other one (alienation) describes a "state of being" .
No idea if I have been clear or if my view can be mistaken. It's one of those concepts that I am able to feel but quite unable to describe by words......And going back to the writing on the OP, what is important is that it doesn't convey negative thoughts.

Let's see for some other attempts.


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## london calling

Benzene said:


> _Avete trovato "distancing effect"? _


The literary device. I had assumed that that was not what Lo meant, so I didn't bother to suggest it.


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## Lorena1970

london calling said:


> The literary device. I had assumed that that was not what Lo meant, so I didn't bother to suggest it.


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## bobes

In italiano mi piace _"evasione"_, che con un filo tra realtà e fantasia unisce il fuggire all'arrivare. _"L'Arte della Fuga"_ (Die Kunst der Fuge) è anche uno dei pilastri della nostra cultura musicale.


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## Lorena1970

bobes said:


> In italiano mi piace _"evasione"_, che con un filo tra realtà e fantasia unisce il fuggire all'arrivare. _"L'Arte della Fuga"_ (Die Kunst der Fuge) è anche uno dei pilastri della nostra cultura musicale.




Grazie bobes, ma sono cose completamente diverse...!  Per  quanto riguarda il mio contesto, il termine è "straniamento" e non può essere un altro perché cambierebbe totalmente il senso della frase. Così come "L'arte della fuga" ha un significato completamente diverso da quello che io necessito. Probabilmente non mi sono spiegata bene io.

EDIT: forse il termine che più rende il senso di "straniamento" è "ostranenie" i.e. defamiliarization. Penso che dovrò chiedere al forum EO.


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## bobes

Confermo ufficialmente di non aver capito.


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