# Urdu: baham



## panjabigator

Can I use <baham> for <ek sāth> in the following way: <mai.n aur mera dost hi.ndustān baham pahu.nche>?


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## Faylasoof

We use <ek sāth> in this context. The use of <baham> as an adverb really means more like <together/ jointly / mutually / in unison with>. In this sense of mutual action between people.

You can say this: <mai.n hi.ndustān may3 apne  dost pahu.nchaa> with the meaning of you reaching India with your friend. 

may3 = مع = with


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## panjabigator

Is the placement of the preposition variable here?  Could you also say <mai.n hindustān apne dost may3 pahu.nchā>?


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## huhmzah

Faylasoof said:


> You can say this: <mai.n hi.ndustān may3 apne  dost pahu.nchaa> with the meaning of you reaching India with your friend.



Punjabigator technically the ma3 would go only where Faylasoof has put it (and not in the place of the typical Urdu post-position "ke saath") -- but frankly I've never ever heard this arabism productively used by Urdu speakers at any register and it sounds a bit frankenstein and pretentious to my ears. Most Urdu speakers will have no clue what you mean by putting ma3 there (which I gather will sound like "maa" or "may" in an Urdu-ized pronunciation).

Your use of the word   باهم seems correct to me and will be readily understood as meaning the same as <ek saath> in your sentence -- I would tweek the syntax just a tad and put the word   after the subjects    -- <mai.N aur mera dost   bāham hindustan pahunche>. Strictly speaking the word "baham" implies a reciprocal action or the equivalent of the english prefixes "inter-"/"intra-" -- <baahami muzaakaraat> (bilateral negotiations), <baahami laRaii> (duel), <baaham-marbuut> (interconnected), <baaham-izdivaaj> (intermarriage) etc BUT in the modern day to day usage of the word (atleast in Pakistan) it is used purely in the same sense as "ek saath" (together) as well.


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## BP.

huhmzah, مع is fairly common. I haven't noticed how often other people use it in speech, but I do to them all the time, and everybody understands. In writing however, its very common, eg on invitation cards بمعہ فیملی تشریف لایی, as is معٌیت میں.

PS: Sorry couldn't type laaiyay properly. The Hamza never works.


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## Faylasoof

huhmzah, even PTV news and Pakistani dramas use مع ! Pretty common amongst both Indian and Pakistani Urduphones.

If we talk of arabism in Urdu then we have to deal with about 50% (or more) of our vocabulary.


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## huhmzah

Haha, I guess you two and I live in two different Pakistans. I've seen the word "ma3" written but I was talking about "hearing" people use it in speech which I can easily say I've _never_ heard, but obviously you two disagree. I don't think I would ever use the word "ma3" to mean together when speaking Urdu (formal or informal) since it still does seem quite archaic and bookish to me.

As for Faylasoof's assertion that 50% (or more) of Urdu's vocabulary is from Arabic -- it most definitely is not, that's just an exageration. I would further add that the vast majority of arabisms that have made their way into Urdu (much less than 50% of our active vocabulary) have come in by way of Farsi and thus function (both semantically and in form) as Farsi allowing for strange terms like بمعہ which can't be considered Arabic considering no Arab of any sort would understand what that means, in writing or in speech i.e. Urdu terms that qualify as actual "arabisms" are few and far between. Case in point, the term <takraar>, which is being discussed in the other post, is mostly used to mean "altercation" / "argument" by Urdu speakers and less commonly as "repeating words" (feroz ullughat lists this other meaning as "dohraana, baar baar kehna" Both meanings are foreign to the Arabic word takraar which never means argument or altercation and also isn't tied down to speech but rather just duplication of any sort. Takraar, as an example, would thus not be considered an "Arabism" in Urdu, but just a Persianism. Conclusion: the presence of once-had-been Arabic terms in Urdu doesn't mean one can indiscriminately throw in fresh Arabisms or any "pure" Arabisms (unlike Farsi words which you can easily get away with) and expect them to automatically fall into place or "sound natural."

Anyway -  that was my spiel against having an Urdu student use extra braincells to learn the word ma3  (in place of baaham).


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## BP.

huhmzah, now I distinctly remember someone other than myself who'd say _m'a_ in his speech without putting a thought into it, but he'd been born into a household strewn with books so it figures.

The h at the end that some people write is definitely the persianisation of the Arabic word.

Coming to _takraar_, well I never use it for verbal altercation, but rather for repetition or iteration. I can easily imagine telling my students that a loop (ref. prog. languages) does _takraar_ of whatever's contained within its block. Well I've never taught in Urdu but if I ever did...


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## Faylasoof

huhmzah said:


> I've seen the word "ma3" written but I was talking about "hearing" people use it in speech which I can easily say I've _never_ heard, but obviously you two disagree. I don't think I would ever use the word "ma3" to mean together when speaking Urdu (formal or informal) since it still does seem quite archaic and bookish to me.




We do speak different languages after all!  Or is there a generation gap!!

 It is anything but archaic / bookish to use  مَع. There may be a problem in the Punjab with this word (I see you are from Islamabad. Lovely city). Certainly not an issue in Karachi where I spent a very long time and both used and heard it in speech.


 As for the rest of your post, I must admire your heroic stand against <<Arabism>> and thank you for your <<spiel against مَع.>>. In all likelihood this word, like so many other Arabic words, came into Urdu via Farsi. 

 I am well aware of the Persianising of Arabic words. After all as someone with an Iranian ancestry - well mixed Arab-Persian ancestry, but with a more direct Iranian connection of not too distant origin – it was our forefathers who so heavily influenced the development of Urdu / Reekhta. BTW, مَع has been a recognised word in Farsi.  _Here._
 
 Defines ma3 as: _maʻ, maʻa_ : With, together with, in the company of; etc.

 … and just to clarify, مَع in Urdu is pronounced <<may’>>! Hardly an Arabism and I am more than happy to take the blame on behalf of my ancestors for this!!

 I do feel very sorry for the small-brained Urdu student(s) you refer to. If by attempting to learn a word like ma3 _together _with baaham  he / she / they felt the strain, and perhaps even blew the fuse, then the future of the language in Pakistan looks bleak.  

 Don't like synonyms? They enrich the language.


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## lafz_puchnevala

Hi,

Does this mean 'together'? *Eg. logon ko kaam baaham karnaa caahiye taaki ve safal hasil honge*. People should work together so that they will attain success. 

Does 'baahmii(बाहमी)' then mean 'togetherness' in the noun form? 

Thanks!


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## lafz_puchnevala

BelligerentPacifist said:


> Here, please have a look at this thread.



So, what kind of mutual actions are   being referred to?


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## Qureshpor

BelligerentPacifist said:


> Here, please have a look at this thread.




And PG has the good sense to put the word under the heading of "Urdu"!!


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## marrish

lafz_puchnevala said:


> Does 'baahmii(बाहमी)' then mean 'togetherness' in the noun form?
> 
> Thanks!



In Urdu we treat it as an adjective.


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## lafz_puchnevala

marrish said:


> In Urdu we treat it as an adjective.



Then will 'baaham' be an adverb in this case?


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## lafz_puchnevala

lafz_puchnevala said:


> Hi,
> 
> Does this mean 'together'? *Eg. logon ko kaam baaham karnaa caahiye taaki ve safal hasil honge*. People should work together so that they will attain success.
> 
> Does 'baahmii(बाहमी)' then mean 'togetherness' in the noun form?
> 
> Thanks!



I would think that people working together will be a mutual action...


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## Alfaaz

> Then will 'baaham' be an adverb in this case?



Yes baaham/باہَم is an adverb:متعلق فعل


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## lafz_puchnevala

Faylasoof said:


> We use <ek sāth> in this context. The use of <baham> as an adverb really means more like <together/ jointly / mutually / in unison with>. In this sense of mutual action between people.
> 
> You can say this: <mai.n hi.ndustān may3 apne  dost pahu.nchaa> with the meaning of you reaching India with your friend.
> 
> may3 = مع = with



Then do give an eg where baaham can be used. 

Thanks!


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## Alfaaz

Don't mean to interrupt...

Example:
جدا تھے ہم تو میسر تھیں قربتیں کتنی 
باہم ہوئے تو پڑی ہیں جدائیاں کیا کیا 

judaa the hum to muyassar theeN qurbateiN kitni 
baham hue to paRi hain judaaiyaaN kya kya
Faiz Ahmad Faiz


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## lafz_puchnevala

lafz_puchnevala said:


> Hi,
> 
> Does this mean 'together'? *Eg. logon ko kaam baaham karnaa caahiye taaki ve safal hasil honge*. People should work together so that they will attain success.
> 
> Does 'baahmii(बाहमी)' then mean 'togetherness' in the noun form?
> 
> Thanks!



Hmm...My usage does use 'baaham' in an adverbial form


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## Sheikh_14

Faylasoof said:


> huhmah, even PTV news and Pakistani dramas use مع ! Pretty common amongst both Indian and Pakistani we talk of arabism in Urdu then we have to deal with about 50% (or more) of our vocabulary.



Could someone kindly use ma' in a sentence, I would like to see if like in Arabic it can be used as an equivalent of with. Platts does offer ek sher ma' sherni which would suggest that it can be used as an occasional exact alternative to ke saath/ saath.


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## marrish

Sheikh_14 said:


> Could someone kindly use ma' in a sentence, I would like to see if like in Arabic it can be used as an equivalent of with. Platts does offer ek sher ma' sherni which would suggest that it can be used as an occasional exact alternative to ke saath/ saath.


یہ فارسی غزل مع اردو ترجمہ پڑھ لیں۔
 کتاب مع رسید بھیج دینا۔
 سینا مع الف فعل ہے،  سینہ مع ہا اسم ۔
 تو مع واوِ مجہول ضمیر حاضر ہے جبکہ مع واوِ معروف حرف التاکید ہے۔
دو شہری مع ایک پولیس اہلکار گرفتار ہو گئے۔_
_​_yih faarsii Ghazal ma3 urduu tarjamah paRh leN.
 kitaab ma3 rasiid bhej denaa. 
siinaa ma3 alif fi3l hae, siinah ma3 haa ism. 
tuu ma3 waaw-e-maj_huul zamiir-e-Haazir hae jabkih ma3 waaw-e-ma3ruuf Harfu_t_taakiid hae. 
do shahrii ma3 ek poliis ahl~kaar giriftaar ho ga'e._


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