# FR: Elle a les/des yeux bleus



## marget

Bonjour, 

Is there any difference in meaning if one says "elle a _les_ yeux bleus" or "elle a _des _yeux bleus"?

Merci d'avance


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## vanagreg

In French you don't use possessive for features when you obviously know who it belongs to.

_Elle a les yeux bleus_, because you're obviously talking about hers.

It's a general rule. 

_J'ai mal à la tête_ (I've got a headache), not _j'ai mal à ma tête_, because I'm obvioulsy talking about mine.

Do you get the point?


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## marget

Thanks, but can one say "elle a des yeux bleus" and if so, is there a difference in meaning from "elle a les yeux bleus"?


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## vanagreg

There's no difference in meaning, but using _des_ is not proper.


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## DearPrudence

I couldn't explain it but that would work if the eyes were more qualified:
*"Elle a des yeux bleus magnifiques"*


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## renardor

"elle a des yeux bleus" feels a little like "she's got some blue eyes"
"elle a les yeux bleus" --> "she has the(her) eyes blue".

"elle a les yeux bleus" is more appropriate.


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## marget

DearPrudence said:


> I couldn't explain it but that would work if the eyes were more qualified:
> *"Elle a des yeux bleus magnifiques"*


 
If I were to say "Elle a des yeux bleu clair", would des would preferred  over les in that context?


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## tilt

_Des _refers to a part of a whole, _les _to a whole set.
As Renardor explained, saying _elle a des yeux bleus _suggests something like _some of her eyes are blue_. Because all of her eyes are blue, _les _is mandatory.

About _des yeux bleus magnifiques_, just like DearPrudence, I hardly explain why _des _is to be prefered to _les _in such a phrase. I'd say the use of _des _is due to the double qualification of _yeux_: _bleus _and _magnifiques both _refer to it, whereas in _bleu clair_, _clair _refers to _bleu _and _des _is not to be used before _yeux_ -> _elle a les yeux bleu clair._


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## renardor

I think there's a tricky subtlety here:

as vanagreg said, <you don't use possessive for features when you obviously know who it belongs to>, especially for body parts:
I'm washing my hands ---> je me lave les mains (not mes mains).
So in "avoir les mains sales", or "se laver les mains", *les* refers to the hands of someone.

Now, as tilt said, <_Des _refers to a part of a whole, *les *to a whole set>:
les animaux de la forêt --> the animals of the forest (all the animals)
des animaux de la forêt --> some animals of the forest

So far, we have 2 les.

In "elle a des yeux bleus", I said it could be understood as "she has some blue eyes" (or "she has some of her eyes blue").
But in "elle a les yeux bleus", it could (not will) be understood as if, say, there's a bowl full of eyes, some are bleu, she picked up some, now she's got them all, she has THE blue eyes (there's no more left).

now if you say "elle a les yeux bleus magnifiques" (she has the magnificent blue eyes), it makes me think about the eye bowl 

so, in some sentences it's les, in others it's des, sometimes it doen't matter much... I don't think there's a rule for that.

in  elle a les/des yeux bleu clair, I personally really don't see the difference between les and des.


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## uptown

I think that part of the confusion is that "some" in this context in English colloquially adds emphasis to the fact that the eyes are blue. This is not the case in French. If I'm not mistaken, you would use _très_ to add emphasis in this context in French.

Is this what you were thinking of, marget?


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## renardor

oops, I didn't know that some could mean très in colloquial speech.

PS:
In french, I think the equivalent is maybe "de ces".
"wow, she has beautiful eyes !" would be, colloquially, "waou, elle a de ces yeux !"


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## tilt

renardor said:


> in  elle a les/des yeux bleu clair, I personally really don't see the difference between les and des.


A sentence like _elle a des yeux bleu clair_ sounds incomplete to me.
Coming across it, I would wait for something to follow, like _elle a des yeux bleu clair... et magnifiques_ or whatever.

That said, you make me realise that _des _is not linked to multiple qualification. No one would say _elle a les yeux magnifiques_, but _des yeux magnifiques_.
And I feel very frustrated not to be able to explain why!


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## marcolo

In the same way, we always say

tu as de beaux yeux (tu sais).

I think that there are some devoted expressions to keep

Isabelle a les yeux bleus
Bleus, Isabelle a les yeux

Otherwise, it is a question of which solution sounds better. I think that often "de" or "des" is better. I would advice to always add another adjective, so that you put "de" or "des" (no choice). For instance

Elle a des yeux bleus superbes

And, you praise the person you are talking about


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## tilt

But it doesn't work this way! 
E.g. _Elle a *les *cheveux blonds et courts._
In  _Elle a des yeux bleus superbes, des _is required by _superbes_, not because of the presence of two adjectives.


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## marget

Thanks to all of you for your help!  I originally asked the question because I have a French friend who is a professor of French who says that "Elle a des yeux bleus/des cheveux blonds" is just as correct as Elle a les yeux bleus/les cheveux blonds".  He told me that both can be used (that both can be counted as correct on a test).  I think that I'm in good company if I just use "les".


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## Maître Capello

Your friend is correct: both articles are possible. However, only the definite article is really common in your examples. In other words, the indefinite article should not be marked as wrong, but it sounds a bit odd, unlike the definite article, which is very natural.


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## Takke

tilt said:


> But it doesn't work this way!
> E.g. _Elle a *les *cheveux blonds et courts._
> In  _Elle a des yeux bleus superbes, des _is required by _superbes_, not because of the presence of two adjectives.



Vous avez raison. L'ajout d'un adjectif ne definie pas toujours la selection de l'article indefini. Je ne suis pas un locuteur natif francais, mais j'ai lu un livre concernant les articles francais. Si on ajoute un determinant (dans ce cas, c'est un adjectif : magnifique) a un determine (yeux), le determinant rend eventuellement le determine special, autrement dit, le determine n'est plus "banal".

*les* yeux bleus >>> *normal, ordinaire
des* yeux bleus magnifiques >>> *special, extraordinaire*

[…]


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## maeder

Bonjour,

Toutes les réponses antérieures vont dans le même chemin avec ce que je ressens lorsque j'entends ces deux formes possibles, "il a les yeux bleus/il a des yeux bleus", mais je formulerais cette question d'une autre façon.

Je crois qu'il s'agit là plutôt de la distinction entre information présupposée (partagée entre locuteur et interlocuteur) et information non présupposé (information nouvelle du point de vue de l'interlocuteur) dans le discours. C'est cela ce qui distingue les articles définis et les articles indéfinis.

[…]

Dans "elle a des yeux bleus...", le choix de l'article indéfini remet à une affirmation plus subjective et, pour cette raison, pas encore connue de la part de l'interlocuteur. Dans "elle a des yeux bleus magnifiques", ce caractère subjectif est encore plus évident, et dans ce cas il faut sans aucun doute utiliser l'article indéfini.


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## DEHER

Pour insister sur ce qui précède, on peut même citer l'exemple plus insistant qui est : elle a les yeux d'un bleu magnifique. Et là, c'est à tomber !!!


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## Maître Capello

Sauf que dans ce cas-là les deux articles sont possibles. 

En bref :

_Elle a *les* yeux bleus_. 
_Elle a *des* yeux bleus_. () (pas vraiment faux, mais peu commun ; pourrait sous-entendre que normalement les gens n'ont pas d'yeux)

_Elle a *les* yeux magnifiques_. () (pas vraiment faux, mais peu commun)
_Elle a *des* yeux magnifiques_. 

_Elle a *les* yeux bleus magnifiques_. 
_Elle a *des* yeux bleus magnifiques_. 

_Elle a *les* yeux d'un bleu magnifique_. 
_Elle a *des* yeux d'un bleu magnifique_.


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