# MSA in speech



## Anatoli

I read people saying that MSA is unnatural using in speech. Can the difference between MSA and a closest spoken dialect be quantified? From my little experience, they are still the same language but about 5-10% different with possibly more difference in pronunciation.

e.g. Egypt dialect (I have more resources on the Egyptian dialect):
(MSA) miSr jaliila jiddan - (E.A.) maSr galiila giddan.
This doesn' seem like a huge difference. I'd prefer to use the MSA version, will this sound too unnnatural in Egypt?

Also, is it correct to say that common phrases like - "What's your name?", "How are you?" will be different but more serious, high level, scientific, etc. sentences would be almost the same (adjusted to the local accent).


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## Josh_

Hello Anatoli,

Did you mean to write:

"misr ja*m*iila jiddan" and "masr ga*m*iila giddan"? galiila means honorable.

To answer your questions:

I think it is difficult to quantify something like languages or variants, but I suppose it could be done. My professor has said that 80% percent of colloquial comes from MSA, but I don't know why he chose that number.

I can't answer form an Egyptian's perspective, but from my I would venture yes, and moreso among the less educated. I can't tell you how many times I was called Gosh after someone saw my name written in Arabic. In fact on documents it was even written in English as Gosh. I remember going to a medical center and having tests done for my upset stomach and on the test results they had spelled Gosh. So this leads me to believe that the 'j' sound is not used that much and may even sound strange in that dialect.

And, since I learned the Egyptian dialect before modern standard I was used to the 'g' sound and it still creeps in when I am trying to talk modern standard.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by more serious in your last question. Maybe you mean more formal/serious in MSA? But yes, common phrases such as those you listed are different in colloquial dialests.

What's your name?
Egyptian:ismak eeh?
MSA: maa ismuka?

How are you?
Egyptian izzayyak?
MSA: keef Haaluka?

How are you


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## cherine

Anatoli said:
			
		

> e.g. Egypt dialect (I have more resources on the Egyptian dialect):
> (MSA) miSr jaliila jiddan - (E.A.) maSr galiila giddan.
> This doesn' seem like a huge difference. I'd prefer to use the MSA version, will this sound too unnnatural in Egypt?


Hi Anatoli, I admire your interest in Arabic and its different forms 
I'll answer your question about Egypt, as it's my country: The "j" sound is used in only some places in Egypt, but the higher majority pronounce the letter ج as "g", except for foreign words : we say, for example :
bantalon jeans بنطلون جنز 
3arabeyya jeeb عربية جيب (Jeep)
James Bond....  And of course if Josh starts by introducing himself, people will pronounce his name correctly, it's just that it's not commonly known here, not like George, John, James....

Back to your question about using MSA in daily speech : yes you'd sound a bit odd. BUT, your being a foreigner is an acceptable "excuse"  Only foreigners are not considered weird when/if they speak in MSA. But I could never do it with my friends, unless maybe in some expressions, or when joking.



> Also, is it correct to say that common phrases like - "What's your name?", "How are you?" will be different but more serious, high level, scientific, etc. sentences would be almost the same (adjusted to the local accent).


Using MSA doesn't make more serious nor higher/more scientific level, as I said : MSA is not used in daily life speeches.
The differences between serious and non serious, high and low levels are found in the level of speech, like in any other language, for even in slang there are different levels : between guys, between a guy and a girl, between "elegant" people, not elegant people....
You want a quick example ?
*How are you ?*
MSA: Kayfa 7aaluka (yes Josh, kayfa not keef) كيف حالك
Colloquial Egyptian Arabic :
- ezzayyak (to male) -ezzayek (to female) - ezzayyoko[m] (sometimes we drop the "m" in the plural form)
This can have a slight change and be used as a polite form: "ezzayy 7adretak" (it's like the Spanish "usted", or the French "vous") this is a form I can use with, let's say, my boss, or a guest.

I can also use, but this is less "formal"
- 3aamel eih (to male) - 3aamla eih (to female) - 3amleen eih (to plural) (to make it formal, I can say: 7adretak 3aamel eih, or 3aamel eih 7adretak)

Now, what I _can not_ use are expressions like these:
- eih akhbarak (literaly : what are your news, but it's used with the same meaning) - eih akhbaarek - eih akhbaarko[m] 
This is also very commonly used.
We even somtimes use it in the "absolute"  : eih el-akhabr إيه الأخبار
- en-nezaam ? (pronounciation of eih en-nezaam, and the first "e" is a bit like the "a" of "ate") إيه النظام literaly: "what's the system" (and don't ask me how it came to mean "how are you" ) this is used among friends, but I wouldn't see it as very natural that a person that I don't really know would say: ahlan, ennezaam أهلاً، إيه النظام . Not that it's a rude word or something, but it's not -yet- considered as an expression that could be used with just anyone.

I hope I wasn't too long  and that I could give you a hint about the wealth of the language, I'm sure you already know about the levels of speech, but I just thought I'd give you more illustrative example.


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## Ayazid

Eastern Dialects are certainly closer to MSA than western (Maghrebi) variants, for example Maghrebi dialects use n_-_ as the first person singular prefix on verbs instead of a-, so they say niktib ("I write) and niktibu ("we write"), whereas in mashriqi dialect niktib means "we write" and "I write" sounds aktib (In MSA it´s naktub and aktub). Well, I think it´s quite big difference. Maghrebi dialects also tend to shorten vowels more than Eastern dialects, which is, I think, one of the reasons why Eastern Arabs find to be difficult to understand them. As for the question which dialect is closest to the classical Arabic, I think that the dialects of Iraq and Arabian Peninsula are phonetically and gramatically the most similar to MSA, then it´s Shami Arabic (Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Jordania) and then Egyptian-Sudanese dialects.


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## cherine

Ayazid said:
			
		

> Eastern Dialects are certainly closer to MSA than western (Maghrebi) variants, for example Maghrebi dialects use n_-_ as the first person singular prefix on verbs instead of a-, so they say niktib ("I write) and niktibu ("we write"), whereas in mashriqi dialect niktib means "we write" and "I write" sounds aktib (In MSA it´s naktub and aktub).


This is interesting : In some parts of Alexandria (native Alexandrians  ) people tend to use the "n" too. People from other cities may find this either laughable, or arrogant (maybe) because, as you said, the "n" indicate plural (we) not singular (I).

As for the difficulty in understanding the Maghreby dialect, I think it's mainly because they use non-Arabic words (berber, "francisms"..), speak quite fast, and have expressions not known in the other Arabic speaking countries.


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## Driss

It's true that we, maghrebis, speak a dialect quite different from MSA. As cherine said, it's due to some berber words (but not that much), francisisms and also some Spanish words (at least in Morocco).
However, we're able to understand the other arabic dialects mostly thanks to the egyptian TV serials  and thanks to school, for those who had the chance to study of course.

There's also another difference between francisms used in eastern and western dialects : To say "I install" (like in installing a software for example), a moroccan would say "kaninstalli", while a libanese would say "A3mil installation". 
What makes the moroccan dialect so hard to understand is maybe the fact of conjugating the french verbs with the dialect rules.

I guess we could talk hours and hours about this subject...


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## Anatoli

Thanks for all your replies!  That will keep me busy.

In my post I meant jamiila/gamiila, sorry my mistake.

Josh
(MSA) miSr ja*m*iila jiddan - (E.A.) maSr ga*m*iila giddan.
I hope this is correct in Arabic.
- مصر جميلة جدا
مِصْر جَمِيلَة جِدّاً

Josh/Cherine,

By serious phrases I meant not seriousness of people speaking but the topics, say "astronomy" is a word of a higher level than "dinner", so my assumption is
that a word like astronomy will match - dilect vs MSA, and some simpler words may differ.


Ayazid and Driss,

Thanks for the info on Maghreb dialects. My knowledge of Arabic verbs and their conjugation is poor, so I will have to come back to your post, as I just today looked in more detail about personal forms of verbs in present tense.

Cherine,

Your examples are excellent! Probably I will start with the Egyptian dialect in parallel with MSA, simply because I already got some material for the Egyptian Arabic - a phrasebook, a textbook and a few songs. I like Amr Diab.


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## Ayazid

cherine said:
			
		

> This is interesting : In some parts of Alexandria (native Alexandrians  ) people tend to use the "n" too. People from other cities may find this either laughable, or arrogant (maybe) because, as you said, the "n" indicate plural (we) not singular (I).
> 
> As for the difficulty in understanding the Maghreby dialect, I think it's mainly because they use non-Arabic words (berber, "francisms"..), speak quite fast, and have expressions not known in the other Arabic speaking countries.


 
I agree. By the mentioned shortening of vowels I mean that Maghrebis for example say kleb (dogs) instead of classical and mashriqi kilaab, jbel instead of jabal etc. This is probably due to influence of indigenous Berber languages which tend to emphasize consonants.


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## Ayazid

Well, there are not many printed materials in Egyptian Arabic but it´s normally used for chat conversations and forums. Actually, the use of Classical Arabic would sound really inappropriate and bizarre for such purpose. From my experience I learnt that Arab people (including Egyptians) highly praise Classical Arabic and consider it to be superior to spoken dialects, but somehow refuse to use this language in daily life, analogous to Orthodox Jews who use Yiddish as their colloquial language and Hebrew use only as holy language in liturgy.


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## paieye

I frequently see warnings that M.S.A. is nowadays used only in broadcasting, official announcements, literature, &c., but not in ordinary speech.

I understand, too  --- this with the help a few months ago of some of your kind contributors  --- that an important difference is that in ordinary speech people usually do not inflect nouns and adjectives.

But are there other differences of importance that affect the Arabic-speaking world generally, and not merely from country to country ?  If there are not, why can all of us foreigners not simply get on with learning M.S.A., remembering only to refrain from using inflections ?


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## yields

Did you encounter any problems while talking to arabic speakers using M.S.A ?


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## paieye

I have not yet reached the stage of talking Arabic to anyone, other than most haltingly to a teacher or fellow-student as  part of an exercise.


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## إسكندراني

You are looking for a summary of differences between dialects and MSA?


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## paieye

You might put it in that way.  I should be more inclined to ask "Assuming that I have taken the trouble to learn M.S.A., what are the essential respects in which I ought to modify it in ordinary speech, perhaps to strangers, in order to be understood and not to cause embarrassment ?"


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## Todd The Bod

If a speaker has had to work since he was a kid and wasn't able to go to school and learn MSA then you're not going to be able to speak to him unless you learn the dialect of his country.  Dropping inflections is not enough to be understood in a dialect because they all diverged from Classical in parallel but different paths probably based on the local languages that were spoken there before Classical.  It's like trying to speak to a person who only speaks Neapolitan by dropping all the endings off of standard Italian.  It's just not that simple.


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## Abu Talha

paieye said:


> You might put it in that way.  I should be more inclined to ask "Assuming that I have taken the trouble to learn M.S.A., what are the essential respects in which I ought to modify it in ordinary speech, perhaps to strangers, in order to be understood and not to cause embarrassment ?"


Hello,

You may find these threads helpful: 

Changing FuS7a/MSA to sound like 3ammeyya
Formal Spoken Arabic (FSA) - is it pragmatic?


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## paieye

Todd --  Do not think me captious, but I happen to be Italian-speaking, and have never had any difficulty in making myself understood all over Italy in many, many visits.  True, I sometimes have had a difficulty with the answer that I have been given, but there has never been any question of not being understood.

But it seems from what you and others say that it would be different in the Arabic-speaking countries.  Is that correct ?

My only visit to those countries took us to Egypt, Jordan and Syria.  Are you saying that, to speak Arabic there and be understood, I should need to master all 3 of the local dialects ?


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## paieye

Abu Talha --  I am truly grateful for those links.  I already own  the Georgetown book and software mentioned by the 2nd link, but the 1st link is even more interesting, and I shall be returning to that as soon as I can find the time.

Again, many thanks.


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## Todd The Bod

No, I'm saying that dropping the endings off of standard Italian won't make it the same as Neapolitan. It's not that simple. So if you speak standard Italian and want a fluent conversation with someone who's had to work his entire life starting when he was grammar school aged and therefore never had a chance to go to school and therefore can't even understand the nightly newcasts you might have some difficulties. Also dropping the declensions off of MSA wont make it 3ammiyyah. It's not that simple. If that's not what I said before, then I should have been more precise and I apologize.  Egyptian is widely understood being where the Hollywood of the Arab world is located; and only slightly different but mutually intelligible Levantine dialects are spoken in Jordan and Syria.


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## paieye

Many thanks, noted.


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## paieye

When for example the Arab League or the Senior Common Room of a Middle Eastern university meet, in what version of Arabic might a speaker address the meeting ?  Would he be entitled to expect questions  from the meeting to be in the same version of Arabic ?


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## إسكندراني

The address would be in some attempt at MSA, but questions from the floor would probably be a mixture of MSA and dialect. MSA doesn't really exist anyway, each country uses a slightly different (in terms of pronunciation and vocab) standard form.


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## paieye

Thank you.


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