# Pronunciation of Ayin when in different places in a word.



## Zeevdovtarnegolet

So I am aware that most people in Israel do not pronounce Ayin at all, or if they do as a glottal stop.  But for those who do, what is the correct way to do so in terms of where the letter appears in the word.  For example three scenarios:


 ערב

בעל

רגע


My impression is that the Ayin would not be pronounced at the end of the word, such as in "rega", and would be pronounced more lightly at the beginning of a word than when it would be in an intermediate position such as "ba'al."  Because hardly anyone pronounces this letter it is hard to find any info on this that pertains to Hebrew specifically.  Lot's of stuff in Arabic though, but I am assuming that the Arabic conventions don't necessarily apply.


I find it unfortunate that this sound has an image problem.  Ok so it isn't exactly pretty, but it isn't so hard to make and most Israelis are around enough Arabic that they hear the sound all the time.  Do you think there is any chance of it being more widely pronounced in the future, together with a chet that is distinct from chaf?  I hope so. It isn't that people can't make these sounds, they don't want to because I think they view them as foreign or something.  It's a shame, because those letters are distinct for a reason, and they are not foreign sounds.  Israelis hear them every day.  I know the difference between Ayin and Alef was already being lost during the time of the Mishna but still.  I get the impression that proper pronunciation of Chet and Ayin is stigmatized by association with Arabic.  That's silly.   I find all the supposed to be minimal pairs annoying without the sound difference:

אם  עם
אני עני


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## tFighterPilot

I think listening to Arabic can give you a pretty good idea about how these words are pronounced by Israelis who pronounce ע. It's not true that it's not pronounced at the end of words. Notice that when in end of words, it's always preceded by an /a/ vowel, because that's the closest vowel to this consonant.


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## Zeevdovtarnegolet

So the rules are the same?  Because in Arabic the Ayin is pronounced quite lightly at the end of the word.


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## tFighterPilot

I think it's a bit of an oversimplification. ע is pronounced somewhat differently depending on the vowels or consonants around it.


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## Zeevdovtarnegolet

tFighterPilot said:


> I think it's a bit of an oversimplification. ע is pronounced somewhat differently depending on the vowels or consonants around it.



Differently in what ways?


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## arbelyoni

There's no one correct way to pronounce the "guttural" Ayin in Modern Hebrew; Most native speakers don't pronounce it (so it is not part of the "standard" accent), and those who do, retain their traditional ethnic pronunciation, which is heavily influenced by Arabic vernaculars. So you could say that the same conventions from Arabic apply here too.


> My impression is that the Ayin would not be pronounced at the end of the word, such as in "rega"...


In Hebrew like Arabic – Ayin is pronounced in all positions, so רגע would be /ɾegaʕ/ or something similar.


> Because hardly anyone pronounces this letter it is hard to find any info on this that pertains to Hebrew specifically


You may search online for interviews with Israelis who pronounce it, like שלמה עמאר and ישי לוי.


> I find it unfortunate that this sound has an image problem. Ok so it isn't exactly pretty, but it isn't so hard to make and most Israelis are around enough Arabic that they hear the sound all the time. Do you think there is any chance of it being more widely pronounced in the future, together with a chet that is distinct from chaf? I hope so. It isn't that people can't make these sounds, they don't want to because I think they view them as foreign or something. It's a shame, because those letters are distinct for a reason, and they are not foreign sounds. Israelis hear them every day. I know the difference between Ayin and Alef was already being lost during the time of the Mishna but still. I get the impression that proper pronunciation of Chet and Ayin is stigmatized by association with Arabic. That's silly.


I hear you on this one; it does seem that this sound has an image problem. However, I don't think it's because of the association with Arabs but because of the association with low class Olim from Arab countries in the 40's-70's.
To the common Israeli it doesn't sound foreign; it sounds low, vulgar and unsophisticated. It's associated with Arsim and Frehot.

It hasn't always been this way: in the early days of Modern Hebrew the Sephardic pronunciation was considered highly prestigious and was held as a role model for the new language. Our modern accent was formed by Europeans who did their best to sound Sephardic!
Not only did they lose their unique Ashkenazi features, but they also didn't manage to master the new accent, so we now speak a heavily Europeanized compromise between the two pronunciations.

I don't believe that Ayin and Heth will ever make it to the standard accent again… Modern Hebrew has come a long way and now it stands by itself.


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## tFighterPilot

I'd say Ayin makes a bit of a comeback, especially with singers like Eyal Golan, Yishai Levi and, of course, Amir Benayoun.


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## origumi

Zeevdovtarnegolet said:


> together with a chet that is distinct from chaf?


Distinction of ח and כ is a different issue. There's nothing "more correct" (historically-speaking) in pronouncing Hebrew ח like Arabic ح rather than خ. Both sounds existed in Hebrew (approximately, no reason to assume they were identical to Modern Arabic), a merger gradually occurred in Mishnaic/Gemeraic times. The merger result is assumed to have been ح (I am not sure how strongly this assumptions is established), with later shift toward خ in many communities (mostly European), influenced by local languages and pronunciation.

Taking the Jewish-Yemenite pronunciation as the model for correct Hebrew is nostalgic but not necessarily founded.


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## tFighterPilot

Actually, my Semitic linguistic professor explained how we know the merge was to ح  and not خ. It's because all forms of Arabic had both of these, so there'd be no reason why Jews living in these places would lose the خ.


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## Zeevdovtarnegolet

arbelyoni said:


> There's no one correct way to pronounce the "guttural" Ayin in Modern Hebrew; Most native speakers don't pronounce it (so it is not part of the "standard" accent), and those who do, retain their traditional ethnic pronunciation, which is heavily influenced by Arabic vernaculars. So you could say that the same conventions from Arabic apply here too.
> 
> In Hebrew like Arabic – Ayin is pronounced in all positions, so רגע would be /ɾegaʕ/ or something similar.
> 
> You may search online for interviews with Israelis who pronounce it, like שלמה עמאר and ישי לוי.
> 
> I hear you on this one; it does seem that this sound has an image problem. However, I don't think it's because of the association with Arabs but because of the association with low class Olim from Arab countries in the 40's-70's.
> To the common Israeli it doesn't sound foreign; it sounds low, vulgar and unsophisticated. It's associated with Arsim and Frehot.
> 
> It hasn't always been this way: in the early days of Modern Hebrew the Sephardic pronunciation was considered highly prestigious and was held as a role model for the new language. Our modern accent was formed by Europeans who did their best to sound Sephardic!
> Not only did they lose their unique Ashkenazi features, but they also didn't manage to master the new accent, so we now speak a heavily Europeanized compromise between the two pronunciations.
> 
> I don't believe that Ayin and Heth will ever make it to the standard accent again… Modern Hebrew has come a long way and now it stands by itself.




About what percentage of speakers pronounce Ayin?  It's very low right?  Only Mizrachi, Sephardic, or Arab-Israelis pronounce it?  No Ashkenazis?  

Interesting that the dominant Ashkenazi culture deemed it an uncultured and low sound due to associating it with non-Ashkenazi Jews and their speech patterns.

I have a book that says Ayin is not pronounced at the end of Hebrew words.  It's called Ivrit min ha hatchala.  

I do think Ayin may have a comeback.  Closer contact with Arabic is inevitable in Israel.  Israeli Arabs have a very high birthrate, and there are mixed cities like Haifa and Jerusalem.  I think in time Jews and Arabs will come closer and Hebrew will be influenced by this a lot more than yalla bay, achalan, walla, etc.  I see Arabic becoming a close third in schools in Israel after Hebrew and English.  I think more and more and more people will realize Arabic is such a useful language to have in the region.  It may take quite a long time.

In time enemies won't be enemies and people will become closer.  In my opinion Hebrew still has a strong wave of Arabic influence on it.  It's inevitable when people live close to each other and interact.  Sounds change over time too in any language.    I have hope that there will be a change sometime.  I think it's a shame that Modern Hebrew is pronounced through a Yiddish-y phonology that sounds so harsh.  Oh well, at least the language was revived.


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## arielipi

Of course, you see it even now. People want to speak liek hebrew should be pronounced. Singers and other celebrities: avri gil'ad, sakharof - are ashkenazim and speak with het and ayin.


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## tFighterPilot

The thing about Israeli Arabs is that they speak Hebrew like Ashkenazim. Some use alveolar ר rather than the common uvular ר, but then again so do Russians. Still, modern Hebrew is closest in the way it sounds to Sepharadic Hebrew than to any other old dialect. There are a few news anchors who still do their best to pronounce ע,ח and ר "correctly", but their numbers are getting thin.


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## tFighterPilot

arielipi said:


> Of course, you see it even now. People want to speak liek hebrew should be pronounced. Singers and other celebrities: avri gil'ad, sakharof - are ashkenazim and speak with het and ayin.


Avri Gilad would want to speak with ח and ע, but only rarely does he pronounce them. I also often hear him pronounce ה as א.


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## arielipi

Yes, but you cant ignore the movement that begun, i too have certain words that i do say ayin as should, and also het as should, but ma laasot, im ashkenazi. Maybe my grandsons will say correctly.


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## origumi

tFighterPilot said:


> Actually, my Semitic linguistic professor explained how we know the merge was to ح  and not خ. It's because all forms of Arabic had both of these, so there'd be no reason why Jews living in these places would lose the خ.


This makes sense but is not a convincing proof. Sound shifts do not need reason, they just happen. Remember that Arabic pronunciation could also have changed in the many years since Hebrews arrived to Arabic speaking regions. Therefore one-to-one identification of the old Hebrew sounds and the Arabic sounds is questionable. We can tell for sure (using the Septuagint for example) that there's strong similarity, and yet it's not enough. Also, not all Jewish communities in Arabic regions were established at the same time. The Yemenite community for example has started in the 2nd Temple time, when the two ח / כ sounds were still active.


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## arbelyoni

> About what percentage of speakers pronounce Ayin? It's very low right? Only Mizrachi, Sephardic, or Arab-Israelis pronounce it? No Ashkenazis?


Native speakers? Very few.
I think that the traditional pronunciation is more common among Yemenite families, but I'm not sure about numbers. Most Native speakers, however, regardless of their ethnic background, align themselves with the standard pronunciation.
Many Arabs also conform to the standard accent when speaking Hebrew.


> I have a book that says Ayin is not pronounced at the end of Hebrew words. It's called Ivrit min ha hatchala.


It must be a reference to the pronunciation of Ayin as Aleph in Modern Hebrew. In the beginning of a syllable they should be pronounced as a glottal stop, at the end of a syllable they are silent.


> I do think Ayin may have a comeback. Closer contact with Arabic is inevitable in Israel. Israeli Arabs have a very high birthrate, and there are mixed cities like Haifa and Jerusalem. I think in time Jews and Arabs will come closer and Hebrew will be influenced by this a lot more than yalla bay, achalan, walla, etc.


I doubt it. The fact is that Arabs in Israel "need" to know Hebrew (that is, Arabs who speak Hebrew have a great advantage over Arabs who don't speak it), while native Hebrew speakers don't "need" to know Arabic (speaking Arabic does not provide them with a clear advantage).
The language of communication between Jews and Arabs in Israel is Hebrew.


> I see Arabic becoming a close third in schools in Israel after Hebrew and English


Arabic studies at school are also not at their best.


> In time enemies won't be enemies and people will become closer. In my opinion Hebrew still has a strong wave of Arabic influence on it. It's inevitable when people live close to each other and interact. Sounds change over time too in any language. I have hope that there will be a change sometime.


Hebrew was heavily influenced by Arabic at times when Arabic was more dominant than Hebrew.
Unless some dramatic political and cultural changes occur in Israel, I don't think that Hebrew will be influenced by Arabic again, let alone by Arabic phonology.


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## MuttQuad

You folks have me altogether confused. When I learned to read and write Hebrew, both aleph and ayin were completely silent letters -- except when they took on the sound of an associated vowel. Even the Hebrew lessons I run across on the Net, such as at http://www.in-hebrew.co.il/, which are made in Israel, do not pronounce ayin any differently than aleph, i.e. not at all except for any associated vowel. Same with Israeli pop recordings I have like those of Yehoram Gaon or Shoshana Damari. Also, the pronunciation chart at dictionary.co.il, states clearly that  ayin is silent. I don't think I have ever heard an unvowelled ayin at word's end pronounced at all.

As for het, it always has a guttural sound. They usually compare it to the ch in Scottish loch (sometimes a little softer) or the German ch as in Bach. So what is all this about ayin actually having a sound like the Arabic ghain, or het not being pronounced? It's all news to me and very confusing.

I do agree, however, that most Americans have trouble with the Israeli pronunciation of resh; but, then, most of us also have problems replicating the French r, or the Spanish r and rr.


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## tFighterPilot

> Same with Israeli pop recordings I have like those of Yehoram Gaon or Shoshana Damari.


Pop? What do these singers have to do with pop? Anyway, Yehoram Gaon, in his songs pronounces all letters like in modern Hebrew, except resh which he pronounces as alveolar trill. Shoshana Damari, however, pronounced heth, ayin (and of course resh) like the Yemenite pronunciation.


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## origumi

MuttQuad said:


> Same with Israeli pop recordings I have like those of Yehoram Gaon or Shoshana Damari.


In that case, the problem is in the ear which is not trained to distinguish ע from א. The ע of Damari, a Yemenite, is crystal clear.


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## arielipi

also hear amir ben ayun, you cant miss it there


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## MuttQuad

origumi said:


> In that case, the problem is in the ear which is not trained to distinguish ע from א. The ע of Damari, a Yemenite, is crystal clear.



I will have to find and listen again to some of my old Damari recordings and other Israeli iTune songs. Perhaps it wasn't her -- just a name that came to mind, as I have quite a few Israeli song records. However, I am generally considered to have a very good ear for languages and usually pick up the native pronunciation of French, Spanish, German, without hardly trying.

Certainly the Internet references I check and some of the "how to speak" videos I see that are from Israel do not pronounce ayin at all. That is why I find it so strange to hear it propounded that this silent letter really has a sound.


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## tapuz

MuttQuad said:


> Certainly the Internet references I check and some of the "how to speak" videos I see that are from Israel do not pronounce ayin at all. That is why I find it so strange to hear it propounded that this silent letter really has a sound.



ע "lives" mostly in artistic/musical or liturgical context (e.g. Piyyut). Not so much in everyday speech. It's often not recommended for students to learn it because of these practical reasons.


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## Schem

This is the first time I hear MIH ayin is a silent letter that _shouldn't _be pronounced, is that true at all? I know it doesn't have the same sound as Arabic ayin but I always thought it was pronounced as a glottal stop.


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## origumi

Schem said:


> This is the first time I hear MIH ayin is a silent letter that _shouldn't _be pronounced, is that true at all? I know it doesn't have the same sound as Arabic ayin but I always thought it was pronounced as a glottal stop.


_shouldn't_ is not the exact term. Ayin is there and should be pronounced, as every language teacher will tell you. Its sound is like in Arabic (ayin, not ghain), maybe a little less distinguishable. And yet - in reality it's getting weaker and weaker along the time axis, but not lost (as describes in this thread).


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## Schem

That's what I thought. Thanks origumi.


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## fdb

Zeevdovtarnegolet said:


> Because in Arabic the Ayin is pronounced quite lightly at the end of the word.



This is a delusion. Maybe it is more difficult for European/American listeners to hear the 'ayn in post-vocalic position.


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