# fell vs. fell down/over



## zaffy

*Do I need to add 'down' or 'over' after 'fell' here:

'She drank so much wine that she fell on the floor'*


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## Enquiring Mind

Hi zaffy, ideally "*She drank so much wine that she fell over"*. I wouldn't use "on the floor", but if you insist, it sounds better without "down" or "over".  The main sense is not about *where* she fell (because we can assume it's the floor), but the fact that she lost her balance. (I think I read somewhere once that there's something called gravity, and apparently if you fall in any particular direction, it's pretty much always "down".  )


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## Barque

You don't have to, though adding either wouldn't make it incorrect.

You could also drop "on the floor" and just use "down" after "fell".

_Cross-posted._


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## zaffy

Thanks for your input. How about this?

*She drank so much wine that she fell.*


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## Barque

It's perfectly grammatical and in many contexts, just saying "she fell" would be sufficient, but I think I'd add "down" or "over" to that sentence.


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## Enquiring Mind

I agree with Barque, and would prefer "over", as you generally only fall in one direction, so there's no need to specify it, but it's not wrong. The point is that she *over*balanced, lost her balance.


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## zaffy

And  can I omit 'that'  

*She drank so much wine she fell over.*


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## Enquiring Mind

Yes, you can, but I think most speakers would put it in in this sentence, because it's functioning as part of the comparative construction "so ..... that ...", not just as the usual omittable "that" introducing a subsidiary clause.


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## zaffy

Will all three sentences work?

-Watch out! The tree is about to fall.
-Watch out! The tree is about to fall down.
-Watch out! The tree is about to fall over.


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## Florentia52

zaffy said:


> Will all three sentences work?
> 
> -Watch out! The tree is about to fall.
> -Watch out! The tree is about to fall down.
> -Watch out! The tree is about to fall over.


Which do you think is/are correct? Also, please give us some context. Is the tree being cut down, or is it falling from a height -- say, off the edge of a cliff? Is it a tree growing outdoors, or a Christmas tree in a stand?


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## zaffy

Say we are in a park, someone is walking by a tree which is kind of crooked. I guess the first one is correct, but not sure about the other two.


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## Barque

zaffy said:


> someone is walking by a tree which is kind of crooked.


Do you mean you think it's about to fall in the next few seconds/minutes, or are you just saying it doesn't look firmly rooted and could fall soon?



zaffy said:


> I guess the first one is correct,


If it's the former, I agree your first option sounds correct.

If it's the second, I'd word it differently. 
_Watch out! That tree looks like it could fall. 
Watch out! That tree looks like it could fall over any time/moment. _Funnily, "any moment" here doesn't necessarily mean you're sure it's about to fall in the next few minutes, only that it looks unstable and could possibly fall.


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## PaulQ

zaffy said:


> Do I need to add 'down' or 'over' after 'fell' here:
> 
> 'She drank so much wine that she fell on the floor'


The basic information is "she fell" (The default understanding is that people fall downwards.)
'She drank so much wine" gives the context and cause.
"on the floor" is refining the information about her fall - it is not absolutely necessary but it gives more context and confirms the default - this is often useful. (Compare "She drank so much wine that she fell on the ambassador.')
'she fell *down* on the floor' -> *down *is an adverb. It is only used with the default "she fell" to give a nuance of motion and a sudden, uncontrolled movement downwards.

*Over *is also an adverb: it gives the nuance of a lack of balance (as you might expect from someone who is drunk.)

It is said that adverbs can always be omitted and the meaning does not alter significantly. This does not mean that you should avoid adverbs as you would avoid a leper with cholera. Adverbs are useful in creating a picture for the listener/reader: they give shades of meaning.



zaffy said:


> Do I need to add 'down' or 'over' after 'fell' here:


How do you want to use the language?


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## zaffy

1. So, as I get it, a tree that is still growing can fall or fall over because of say a strong wind, right?

2. A cut down tree that is lying on the ground could say roll and fall down from a hill, right?

3. 





PaulQ said:


> *down *is an adverb. It is only used with the default "she fell" to give a nuance of motion and a sudden, uncontrolled movement downwards.
> 
> *Over *is also an adverb: it gives the nuance of a lack of balance (as you might expect from someone who is drunk.)



I wish you could act out these two kinds of movements for me.     ‘I tripped and fell down.” vs ‘I tripped and fell over” Would they differ much? Can you somehow help me picture them?


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## PaulQ

*Down *has a vertical nuance to it = downwards -> things fall down a mineshaft, a person falls down *mainly *with a vertical motion - there is not a lot of horizontal motion.
*Over *has the nuance of "overbalance" to it - A statue falls over; the wind blows a tree over; you fall over the doorstep - there is also an horizontal component to it.

Take a pencil. Hold it between your finger and thumb. Raise your hand. Let the pencil drop. It falls down.
Balance the pencil on the 'non-sharp' end. Tap the point. The pencil falls over.

There are contextual exceptions to this, and the differences are subtle, but the important thing to remember is that you only need to remember all this if someone asks you


zaffy said:


> Do I need to add 'down' or 'over' after 'fell' here:
> 
> 'She drank so much wine that she fell on the floor'


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## zaffy

These two are Longman examples. Could you tell me what might the difference between them be that once that used 'fall' and then 'fall down'? Might this be a matter of falling from some height or just collapsing while standing on the ground? Or might it be a matter of suddenly losing consciousness or tripping?

-I fell and hit my head.
-Lizzie fell down and hurt her knee.


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## Barque

zaffy said:


> Could you tell me what might the difference between them be that once that used 'fall' and then 'fall down'?


I suppose "fell" is more general--the person could have fallen on the ground, or onto a surface higher than the ground, like a table for instance--it implies that the person lost their balance and was unable to stay upright. "Fell down" is more specific and implies that the person fell on the ground.


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## zaffy

Do leaves in the autumn fall or fall down? For example, "When the autumn comes, all these leaves will fall (down)."


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## Barque

They fall.


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## zaffy

And fruits on tress when they get ripe? Fall or fall down?


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## heypresto

They fall too.


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## zaffy

If someone is in a tree, they could fall out of a tree, right? But someone could fall off a branch if they are sitting/standing on it, right?


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## heypresto

Yes.


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## zaffy

We’ve already discussed this sentence: “ He kicked the table and the glasses fall off/down”, and I know ‘down’ is incorrect here. Looks like ‘down’ doesn’t fit as ‘down’ doesn’t show the sense of detachment from the original surface/point of contact. One native confirmed my theory saying:  “_The difference between fall off and fall down is that off means the glasses fell off the table but down means they stayed on the table but fell over_.”  Another native said the same “_Fall down - the "down" refers to the orientation of the glasses. They are no longer sitting upright but there is no implication that they fell off the table_.”  Ok, and now why did Paul give this example where there is a detachment and the pen clearly falls on the ground?


PaulQ said:


> Take a pencil. Hold it between your finger and thumb. Raise your hand. Let the pencil drop. It falls down.


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## RM1(SS)

What other direction could it possibly fall?


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## zaffy

RM1(SS) said:


> What other direction could it possibly fall?



down only  

leaves fall down, fruits fall down, and a pencil falls down?  This is something non-natives can't understand


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## RM1(SS)

In this case, "down" + "downward".  Given the proper context, anything can fall down.


PaulQ said:


> *Down *has a vertical nuance to it = downwards -> things fall down a mineshaft, a person falls down *mainly *with a vertical motion - there is not a lot of horizontal motion.


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## zaffy

Barque said:


> They fall.



You say leaves 'fall' in the autumn, not 'fall down', and Cambridge says the same. So why this title?


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## PaulQ

zaffy said:


> So why this title?


Are you suggesting that one title of one book is sufficient to prove your point? What is the book about? Why has the author used "down"? What is the context?


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## zaffy

I'm not suggesting anything. I'm asking if you find the title correct/natural. The book, as I can imagine, is about autumn.


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## Linkway

zaffy said:


> How about this?
> 
> *She drank so much wine that she fell.*


Not good, I think.   Where did she fall from? In what way did she fall?
...she fell on the floor.
...she fell from the balcony into the firefighter's arms.
...she fell from grace.
...she fell out of the tree into a bush.

You get my drift?


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## zaffy

I do


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## PaulQ

zaffy said:


> I'm asking if you find the title correct/natural.


I don't know what the book is about. Others have said "the leaves fall down" is not idiomatic in most contexts and I agree. Perhaps it is a children's book teaching them about gravity and it really means "The leaves fall downwards."


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## Florentia52

Actually, in the text of the book, it uses "the leaves fall" and not "the  leaves fall down." Perhaps the title was chosen by an editor who felt "Leaves Fall" was too short or confusing a title.


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## PaulQ

"Leaves Fall" -> Departs from Autumn....


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## ain'ttranslationfun?

Hi,zaffy,

Re #11, for me "to be about to" indicates imminence (that something will happen very soon).

"She fell down" vs. "She fell over" is an AE-BE (respectively) variation, I think. But think of the nursery rhyme "Jack fell down and broke his crown" (the top of his head, not the royal headgear)...

By the way, we can also say that fruit "drops" from trees.

P. S., The AE word "fall" as a synonym for "autumn" is said to derive from what leaves do in that season.


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## kentix

*She drank so much wine that she fell.*

I, also, don't think this is sufficient. "She fell" suggests some "good" reason for the situation.

She tripped over the branch and fell.
She got too near the edge of the cliff and fell.

*She drank so much wine that she fell down.*

That implies that there was no good reason she should have fallen. There was no specific trigger - i.e. nothing to trip on, for instance. She just fell down because she was drunk (which could have happened at any point in the ongoing process of being drunk).

*She drank so much wine that she [eventually] fell down.*

If there was a specific cause then the sentence would be different.

*She drank so much wine that she couldn't see straight and fell while descending the steps.*


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## zaffy

Does 'fall down' imply a more sudden, violent, uncontrolled fall of a branch here? Both of these are correct, right?

-During yesterday's storm, a huge branch fell onto my car. 
-During yesterday's storm, a huge branch fell down onto my car.


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## ain'ttranslationfun?

zaffy said:


> Does 'fall down' imply a more sudden, violent, uncontrolled fall of a branch here? Both of these are correct, right?
> 
> -During yesterday's storm, a huge branch fell onto my car.
> -During yesterday's storm, a huge branch fell down onto my car.



While both are correct, I see no nuance of difference and certainly no "sudden, violent or uncontrolled" aspect added by "down".


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## sound shift

zaffy said:


> Does 'fall down' imply a more sudden, violent, uncontrolled fall of a branch here? Both of these are correct, right?
> 
> -During yesterday's storm, a huge branch fell onto my car.
> -During yesterday's storm, a huge branch fell down onto my car.


To me, the first sounds a little odd, and the second, very odd.

I would expect "... a huge branch fell on my car" (or "... a huge branch came down on my car", but I'm straying from the topic).


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## kentix

I agree the second one (with down) seems unlikely.


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## taraa

Barque said:


> They fall.


Sorry Barque, here for a leaf that falls from a tree "fall off" is used, why, please?

_[After the film's title is shown, an orange leaf is hanging on a tree, it then* falls off *the tree, and gently drifts onto the sidewalk. Something then goes past the leaves*,* causing them to blow every which way. A young girl, Eliza, is riding along the sidewalk on her tricycle.]_
Monster House, transcript


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## heypresto

It's described as falling *off* the tree because it was described as hanging *on* the tree.


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## taraa

heypresto said:


> It's described as falling *off* the tree because it was described as hanging *on* the tree.


Aha, thank you!


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## Barque

And it could also have been worded, "...it then falls off, and gently..." or "...It then falls, and gently..."


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## taraa

Barque said:


> And it could also have been worded, "...it then falls off, and gently..." or "...It then falls, and gently..."


Thank you, Barque!


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