# vouloir le beurre et l'argent du beurre



## Cari_Su

Salut!

I was looking up in the dictionary the proverb _you can't have your cake and eat it_ and the result was _vouloir le beurre et l'argent du beurre,_ which I'm translating as 'to want the butter and the money of the butter'.

What I was wondering, as this is one saying that is said in two completely different ways, so, where does the origin of this saying come from (in French) and / or what is meant by it?

I hope I'm making some sense, (because this is not making sense to me!) but I would just like to understand what it means and why, before I launch myself into using it!

Merci pour votre assistance!

Cari


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## la reine victoria

The French meaning is that you want to eat the butter as well as have the money you would have received had you sold the butter.  I think.......?


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## Synthese

I think that the phrase means that one cannot have both butter and the money necessary to purchase it.   So the phrase is identical to "Have your cake AND eat it."


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## geve

...to which you can add "et le sourire de la crémière"

Now I don't quite understand the meaning of the proverb in English : it seems obvious to my stubborn non-native mind, that you can both have a cake, and eat it... if you do it in that order. Or is "have" a synonym of "eat" here ?


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## mcfadden_ronan

You can have the cake THEN eat it but you wont have the cake AFTER you eat it. So, essentially, once you eat the cake you don't have it anymore.

I have another question.
In English "to have your cake and eat it" tends to refer to a man cheating on his wife with another woman...does the french proverb have the same meaning?

Thanks,
Ronan.


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## Xanthius

mcfadden_ronan said:
			
		

> In English "to have your cake and eat it" _tends_ to refer to a man cheating on his wife with another woman


 
Hi, imho I wouldn't say that this saying _tends_ to refer to that (although it could).


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## Agnès E.

Not at all, Ronan. It just means that you cannot have everything for nothing. If you want to buy something, you need to work and earn the money. If you want good marks at school, you need to learn your lessons. Etc.


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## geve

yes, but...  it does say "to have one's cake and eat it" so the eating part comes second... so I still don't get why it's impossible...

No, the French proverb doesn't say that (apart, maybe, for the part with the smile of the dairywoman !). It really says you can't have two opposite good things, eg.
_you can't have both a good position in a company, AND plenty of free time_
_you can't work less hours, AND earn more money_
_you can't be both blonde AND intelligent -oops, sorry, I'm wrong on this one, I am the living refutation of this _ _- and so is Agnès !_


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## Xanthius

geve said:
			
		

> yes, but...  it does say "to have one's cake and eat it" so the eating part comes second... so I still don't get why it's impossible...


 
Geve, I assure you, you are not alone... In fact it was only the other day that someone said this, and then someone questioned why... At least 4 other people agreed it didn't make sense to them as they saw it the same way as you...!  When it was explained there was an 'ahhhhhh'  moment!

As was pointed out above... it is trying to say: to eat it, and then have it in front of you still to eat again (and again, and again).  I quite agree it's not clear - but I guess that's true with a lot of idioms.


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## geve

aaaaaaaaaahhh  Thank you, Xanthius ! (both for showing me I am not alone, and for the explanation !)

So there is an idea of repetition in the sentence... I'm wondering then, is it really an equivalent of the French sentence ? I googled it and one website offered this interpretation of the proverb : "One can't use something up and still have it to enjoy"
The link actually raises the same issue, and offers as an alternative "you can't have it both ways"...?


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## mburke

Que veut dire cette expression "l'argent du beurre"?  Je ne peux pas meme deviner le sens.

Merci en avance.


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## Bix

C'est toujours couplé avec "le beurre" 

-> "Le beurre et l'argent du beurre" ..

It means you get some advantage twice 

for example : someone you hate in your enterprise is fired, AND you get a consequent promotion

There is a "humoristic" addition to that phrase : 

-> "Le beurre, l'argent du beurre, et le sourire de la crémière". (the milkmaid's smile)

Still more good things


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## Noon

Littéralement, cela veut dire qu'on veut le beurre qu'on achète et garder l'argent pour l'acheter. En gros, avoir quelque chose pour rien. Si en plus on veut le sourire de la crémière, c'est vouloir une chose de valeur, non seulement pour rien, mais avec d'autres avantages.

Mais c'est vrai qu'à force, l'expression "vouloir le beurre et l'argent du beurre" tend à signifier simplement: vouloir plus que ce à quoi on a droit (to want more than what you're entitled to)


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## Micia93

Well, I would'nt give this example : in this case, it doesn't imply you will of . you just benefit from these circumstances
"vouloir le beurre et l'argent du beurre" actually means that you _*want*_ something (to get a job for ex) and you want a well-paid one _*only*_


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## archijacq

you can't have a cake and eat it too


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## david314

_*(to want) to have your cake & eat it, too*_


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## Moon Palace

'you can't have it both ways' is another way of saying 'on ne peut pas avoir le beurre et l'argent du beurre'.


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## lilouxrs

I think there is another expression in English which says "you can't have the best of both worlds", right?


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## david314

Moon Palace said:


> *'you can't have it both ways'* is another way of saying 'on ne peut pas avoir le beurre et l'argent du beurre'.


 



lilouxrs said:


> I think there is another expression in English which says "you can't can have the best of both worlds", right?


 I believe that you are confusing this with a different idiom.


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## Damz

I'm trying to find a decent translation of this French expression and hoped I could find some suggestions in here. It means to want everything, and not be ready to make any compromise to get it.

Do you guys/gals know of an equivalent expression in English?

Thank you.

[...]


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## pyan

Would "have your cake and eat it" fit?  It sounds similar in meaning to me.

Edit:  When spoken, there is a slight emphasis on the "and".


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## alebeau

I know this was posted some time ago, but as a American English native, I completely agree that "you can't have the best of both worlds" would be very fitting for this expression.

"You can't have your cake and eat it to" is a proverbial way of saying "You can't have the best of both worlds."  (You either want X or Y... you can't get the best of both.)

Best,

--AL


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## soulwindow

it is like to gain money without working.
Vouloir  toujours tout garder à soi, vouloir tout gagner sans rien laisser aux  autres, c'est vouloir le beurre et l'argent du beurre.


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## Synthese

{In English "to have your cake and eat it" tends to refer to a man cheating on his wife with another woman...does the french proverb have the same meaning?}

Not in the least and neither in French. It simply means "getting your way" selfishly.

Literally, the phrase means to "have the butter and the silver butter dish". Therefore underscoring the fact that the person is being selfish.


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## LivingTree

Re the question in post #6 -- in fact, there is a school of thought that says that the expression is _really_:

You can't eat your cake and have it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Have_one's_cake_and_eat_it_too
The phrase's earliest recording is from 1546 as "wolde you bothe eate your cake, and have your cake?"
(and see under the heading "Literal Meaning" there)

It certainly does make more sense that way, but nobody says that, and everybody understands what "you can't have your cake and eat it too" means.  Which is simply: you can't have it (whatever the situation is) both ways.

You can't expect me to spend the day doing your laundry and also expect to have dinner on the table when you get home!


edit - I don't think the French expression has anything to do with dishes; I've always seen it explained as it was above: "one cannot have both butter and the money necessary to purchase it" -- one cannot have it both ways. And of course I also don't think the English expression refers to cheating husbands -- unless either his No.1 or his No.2 catches him at it, and informs him that he cannot have it both ways: he cannot eat his cake and have it too!


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## Synthese

{"one cannot have both butter and the money necessary to purchase it"}

Perhaps, but that expression makes no sense. If one has butter, one obviously has had the money to buy it.

Moreover, it is its usage that tells more. There is very certainly a significance of selfishness in the expression as employed in French.


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## LivingTree

Oh dear, it seems so simple to some of us in both languages!

quote:
_{"one cannot have both butter and the money necessary to purchase it"}
Perhaps, but that expression makes no sense._

Forgive me, but that is what the expression is.
You seem to think _argent du beurre_ means "silver dish to put butter in", and it does not.
There does seem to be some disagreement as to whether it means "money to buy the butter" or "money from selling the butter" (literally, money from the butter -- with most sources actually saying that, so I'll go with it), but the end result is the same. You can't have both at the same time. More generally, you can't have something both ways.


If you have the _money from selling the butter_, you don't have the butter (anymore), because you sold it.
You have sold the butter, so you have the money, but you have no butter.
If you have the _butter_, you don't have the money from selling it (yet), because you haven't sold it. 
You have not sold the butter, so you don't have the money, but you have the butter.

If you _have _the cake, you have not eaten it (yet). 
If you _have eaten_ the cake, you don't have it (anymore), because you ate it.

There is certainly an implication of _greediness_ in both languages, but I would not call it selfishness.

For fellow English speakers:
Avoir le beurre et l'argent du beurre - French Expression


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## orlando09

Xanthius said:


> Hi, imho I wouldn't say that this saying _tends_ to refer to that (although it could).


I agree


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## Synthese

{ I don't think the French expression has anything to do with dishes}

Think as you like, but "argent" does not mean only money. It can mean, in this context, also a "silver dish" as in "argenterie".


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## Keith Bradford

There's another English phrase which I like, in the same vein: "*You can't have the bun and the penny*".


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## yannalan

> Think as you like, but "argent" does not mean only money. It can mean, in this context, also a "silver dish" as in "argenterie".


Not here, in this context. I am sure of it. "Argenterie " is not "argent".No Frenchman would understand that in this way
It means you cannot sell your butter and keep the money.


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## laverdure2

yannalan said:


> Not here, in this context. I am sure of it. "Argenterie " is not "argent".No Frenchman would understand that in this way
> It means you cannot sell your butter and *keep the money*.


euh... you mean : you can't buy the butter and keep the money, no ?


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## yannalan

Yes, of course, thank you.


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## laverdure2

You're welcome, ça m'arrive aussi 
Je suis tout à fait d'accord, l'argenterie n'a rien à voir là-dedans, en aucune manière.
This typically French expression means "you can't have your cake and eat it"


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## Martyn94

It may be worth recalling that until quite recently (in historical terms) many French peasants were subsistence farmers with very little cash income: they (and particularly their wives) relied on selling butter and eggs at the local market to pay for things they needed to buy for cash rather than by barter. Often to the extent of doing without butter and eggs for their own consumption. The tension between wanting to eat the butter, and needing to sell it, was very real, and seriously important.


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## LivingTree

Very worth recalling, I think! There are reasons for these sayings, even if they are remote from us and the fact that the reason has disappeared makes the meaning of the saying itself obscure, sometimes.

The English expression does seem to arise directly from the concept of greed, as in what I quoted earlier:

The phrase's earliest recording is from 1546 as "wolde (would) you bothe eate your cake, and have your cake?"

It really means: if you want to have your cake (possess it), you can't eat it. Because then you won't have it. 

So in both languages, you can't do both things; and as the sayings are used today, they mean that if you think you can do both things, or try to do both things, you are greedy and/or foolish.


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## laverdure2

Yes this expression is used in French to say that one must make a choice : the butter OR the money of the butter. And it's rather used to say that someone is rather greedy, willing both.

In the same idea, we also have "le tonneau plein et la femme saoûle" (either you keep the barrel for yourself or you make the woman drink the wine to seduce her) and "le beurre, l'argent du beurre et le sourire de la crémière" to indicate someone really greedy willing both butter and money plus a gift.


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## platflo

And there's an extra to this expression, even if I must admit it's much more colloquial : "vouloir le beurre, l'argent du beurre et le cul de la laitière (ou de la crèmière)" - instead of "smile" actually


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## Kanata01

Hi there,
I’m from Quebec and it heres it’s simply meet mean ‘’you wants it all’s’. 
Cordially


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## broglet

Since 2005 when this thread started a new word entered the English lexicon: 'cakeism'. It means either to want two mutually incompatible things simultaneously, or a belief that you can have them. I think it might have originally been coined in response to Boris Johnson's apparent cakeism in relation to Brexit.


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## Alain Coci

Is "soup-to-nuts" an equivalent of "le beurre et l'argent du beurre"? I found it in a novel by the american writer Lee Child


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## Keith Bradford

No: _soup-to-nuts_ means _*from the start to the end*_ (of a meal).  It might be translated as "_du début jusqu'à la fin... tout le long de...  entièrement..._" etc. depending on the context.


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## nahidur78

You can have the cake THEN eat it but you wont have the cake AFTER you eat it. So, essentially, once you eat the cake you don't have it anymore.
Not in the least and neither in French. It simply means "getting your way" selfishly.


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