# Persian: غم or غمی



## Asadullah

Is the Persian word for "grief" gham or ghami? I thought it was the former but then came across the following:

ازو شادمانی و زویت غمیست وُ زویت فزونی و هم زو کمیست

(شاهنامه/آغاز کتاب - ویکی‌نبشته)


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## soheil1

ی at the end of غمی just makes it indefinite


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## Treaty

I guess the ی suffix is the noun-making suffix here. However, apart from the poem's meter and rhythm, its usage is unnecessary and even wrong.


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## James Bates

soheil1 said:


> ی at the end of غمی just makes it indefinite



But why Firdawsi make غم indefinite? "A grief" doesn't make any sense.
By the way, could somebody tell me what زویت means? زو by itself would mean "from him", i.e. از او. I don't know what یت means.


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## Treaty

I also think it doesn't make sense to consider ی as indefinite, especially the other three یs (شادمانی کمی فزونی) are noun-making suffixes. I'd say Ferdowsi had sacrificed morphological correctness for rhyme.

زویت mean "from him to you" = ز + او + ت.


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## PersoLatin

James Bates said:


> could somebody tell me what زویت means?


The same as Treaty's, I believe:
ا*ز* ا*و* هست غم*ت*


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## Stranger_

> infinitive-making suffix


What do you mean by this? Could you give an example for it?


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## Treaty

I meant noun-making as I'd put in my next post (#6). Thanks for pointing it out (I edited it).


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## soheil1

James Bates said:


> But why Firdawsi make غم indefinite? "A grief" doesn't make any sense.
> By the way, could somebody tell me what زویت means? زو by itself would mean "from him", i.e. از او. I don't know what یت means.


Why?
an instance of griedf.....................


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## fdb

In 10th-century pronunciation:

az ō šāδmānī u z-ōy-at γamī-st
u z-ōy-at fuzūnī u ham z-ō kamī-st

I agree with Treaty: γam is already a noun, but it has been pleonasticly hyper-nominalised as γamī.


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## colognial

Asadullah said:


> Is the Persian word for "grief" gham or ghami? I thought it was the former but then came across the following:
> 
> ازو شادمانی و زویت غمیست وُ زویت فزونی و هم زو کمیست
> 
> (شاهنامه/آغاز کتاب - ویکی‌نبشته)



This is how I read through the line: ازو شادمانی* وَزویت* غمیست  /  *وَزویت* فزونی و هم زو کمیست. I like for the وَزویت to be repeated in the second part of the verse, but only once; no good going for وَزویت فزونی وَزویت کمیست.

Regarding غم, basically, this is what each of the following words is, grammatically:

غم: a noun
غمین: an adjective
غمی: an adjective

However, غمین can be made into a noun again, so:  غمینی (a noun), that is, by attaching a ی to the end of the adjective. Now, the same can be done with the other adjective, which is غمی, except that it doesn't sound pleasant to attach a ی to the end of a word that already ends in a ی. So, غمی, even after receiving a similar treatment in order to be 'changed' into a noun, still sounds and is spelt as before.


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## James Bates

Very interesting!


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## Qureshpor

colognial said:


> Regarding غم, basically, this is what each of the following words is, grammatically:
> غم: a noun
> غمین: an adjective
> غمی: an adjective..


I believe غمی when it is short for غمین is an adjective. Otherwise, غمی is a noun. In Urdu we have "شادی غمی کے مواقع" which can be translated as "occasions of joy and sorrow".
This superfluous ی is quite common


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## PersoLatin

Qureshpor said:


> I believe غمی when it is short for غمین is an adjective.


Do have an example of this in Persian?




Asadullah said:


> ازو شادمانی و زویت غمیست وُ زویت فزونی و هم زو کمیست


All four of these are the same i.e. *nouns* شادمانی غمی فزونی کمی happiness, sadness, playfulness and deficiency/need.


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## Qureshpor

PersoLatin said:


> Do have an example of this in Persian?



*See page 434 of Hayyim*

غمی = *غمین* - غمگین

غمین _(ghamin)_ Adjective _A.P_ Sad, sorrowful; sorry. _Syn_. غمگین

همی تیر بارید همچون تگرگ
برین همنشان تا *غمین* گشت کرگ
فردوسی

*See -لغت‌نامه دهخدا*

*غمی* . [ غ َ ] (ص نسبی ) غمناک . (آنندراج ). *غمگین* . غم دار. *غمین* . اندوهناک . اندوهگین

رسیدند یاران لشکر بدوی
*غمی* یافتندش پر از آب روی
فردوسی

همی گفت کاینم جهاندار داد
*غمی* بودم از بهر تیمار داد
فردوسی


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## PersoLatin

^ Perfect, thank you.

While on the subject, does anyone know where گ in غمگین comes from?

The reason I ask is that the گ in رنگین سنگین is part of the original word so the construction is the same as مهین شیرین, and by extension *غمین* is the expected result and not *غمگین.*


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## fdb

PersoLatin said:


> ^ Perfect, thank you.
> 
> While on the subject, does anyone know where گ in غمگین comes from?



-gīn (Middle Persian -gēn) is a productive suffix for forming adjectives from nouns. In this case it is attached to the Arabic ɣam(m).


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## PersoLatin

fdb said:


> gīn (Middle Persian -gēn) is a productive suffix for forming adjectives from nouns.


Yes of course, as in خشمگین, can’t think of other examples.


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## Qureshpor

PersoLatin said:


> Yes of course, as in خشمگین, can’t think of other examples.


اندوہگین، شرمگین


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## PersoLatin

I wonder if گین, in all above examples, is the shortened form of آگین ?


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## Alfaaz

PersoLatin said:
			
		

> I wonder if گین, in all above examples, is the shortened form of آگین ?


Relevant entry:


> P گين _gīn_, vulg. _gīṅ_ [contrac. of _āgīn_, rt. of _āgandan_;—prep. _ā_+Zend rt. _kan_ = S. खन्], A suffix (denoting 'full of, or affected with, or possessed of') added to nouns to form possessive adjectives (e.g. _surma-gīn_, 'full of _surma_'; _g̠am-gīn_, 'sorrowful, sad').


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## PersoLatin

Thank you Alfaaz.

آگندن/آکندن is similar to آلودن in these cases. گین seems to used with negative human emotions only


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## Alfaaz

PersoLatin said:
			
		

> Thank you Alfaaz.
> 
> آگندن/آکندن is similar to آلودن in these cases. گین seems to used with negative human emotions only


 You're welcome. 

That is an interesting observation. Is there any specific reason why _-giin_ is used with only/predominantly negative emotions?


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