# حروف العطف: و / فـ / ثم



## jonquiliser

Ahlan 

I'm an absolute beginner, so this question will probably be a little basic... I tried a search but found nothing.

Now, my dictionary gives two words for the conjunction and: _wa_, and _fa_. What is the difference between the two?

Shukran!


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## Abu Bishr

Hi everybody

As conjunctions the _waw_ links two items in no particular order, and the _fa_ links between two items with the second item following immediately after the first, e.g.

qaama zaydun wa 'amrun (Zayd and 'Amr stood)

qaama zaydun fa 'amrun [Zayd stood, and 'Amr immediately thereafter]

So in the first example, we know that both ended up standing but we don't know whether the one stood before the other or both stood at the same time.

Maybe for the sake of simplicity the _waw_ can be translated as simply just "and" and the _fa_ as "and then / thereafter".

It should be borne in mind though,that not all _waw_s and _fa_s necessarily all operate as conjunctions.


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## jonquiliser

Aha, think I got it, thanks! Could it be said as "Zayd and then Amr stood..."?

Thanks for your answer.


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## Abu Bishr

The "immediately" bit is brought in so as to distinguish the _fa_ from another conjunction denoting basically the same meaning as the _fa_, but there is a bit of a delay between the two items linked by the conjunction. This other conjunction is _thumma_, e.g.

qaama zaydun thumma 'amrun (Zayd stood and 'Amr a while thereafter).


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## jonquiliser

Very interesting. Thank you, Abu Bishr!


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## Jamal31

[Moderator's note: merged with a previous thread]
Hello,

I was wondering what the difference is in the usage between ثُمَّ and فَـ, both meaning 'then' or 'subsequently'
Example:

Quran 2:28:

 كَيْفَ تَكْفُرُونَ بِٱللَّهِ وَكُنتُمْ أَمْوَٰتًۭا فَأَحْيَٰكُمْ ۖ *ثُمَّ *يُمِيتُكُمْ *ثُمَّ *يُحْيِيكُمْ *ثُمَّ *إِلَيْهِ تُرْجَعُونَ


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## HotIcyDonut

Here's [The Arabic Connectors] a good explanation. [Link description added by mod to avoid bare link]


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## Jamal31

Thanks, HotIcyDonut. (I love your username btw)


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## ساره

According to some scholars و, too, denotes sequence, as in فَاغْسِلُوا وُجُوهَكُمْ وَأَيْدِيَكُمْ إِلَى الْمَرَافِقِ وَامْسَحُوا بِرُءُوسِكُمْ وَأَرْجُلَكُمْ إِلَى الْكَعْبَيْنِ


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## Ali Smith

If you mean that و indicates that the معطوف عليه precedes the معطوف, then what do you make of the following?

كَذَلِكَ يُوحِي إِلَيْكَ وَإِلَى الَّذِينَ مِنْ قَبْلِكَ اللَّهُ الْعَزِيزُ الْحَكِيمُ
الشورى:٣


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## Ali Smith

However, on the other hand we have the following:

هُوَ الَّذِي خَلَقَكُم مِّن نَّفْسٍ وَاحِدَةٍ وَجَعَلَ مِنْهَا زَوْجَهَا لِيَسْكُنَ إِلَيْهَا ۖ فَلَمَّا تَغَشَّاهَا حَمَلَتْ حَمْلًا خَفِيفًا فَمَرَّتْ بِهِ ۖ فَلَمَّا أَثْقَلَت دَّعَوَا اللَّهَ رَبَّهُمَا لَئِنْ آتَيْتَنَا صَالِحًا لَّنَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الشَّاكِرِينَ

It is He who created you from one soul and created from it its mate that he might dwell in security with her. And when he covers her, she carries a light burden and continues therein. And when it becomes heavy, they both invoke Allah, their Lord, "If You should give us a good [child], we will surely be among the grateful."

Obviously, God could not have created the soul's mate from it without first having created it (the soul). I think it's clear from this verse and the one I quoted before (كَذَلِكَ يُوحِي إِلَيْكَ وَإِلَى الَّذِينَ مِنْ قَبْلِكَ اللَّهُ الْعَزِيزُ الْحَكِيمُ) that وَ denotes neither sequence nor simultaneity; it is silent on the issue, and any notion of sequence or simultaneity must be gleaned from context or common sense.


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## Allahuakbar1

I believe that ash-Shafi'i says it indicates sequence.


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## Ali Smith

ف implies sequence. Witness:

وَلَقَدْ أَرْسَلْنَا نُوحًا إِلَى قَوْمِهِ فَلَبِثَ فِيهِمْ أَلْفَ سَنَةٍ إِلا خَمْسِينَ عَامًا فَأَخَذَهُمُ الطُّوفَانُ وَهُمْ ظَالِمُونَ
(العنكبوت:١٤)

That means that Nuh (عليه السلام) was sent to his nation and then he stayed among them 950 years and then the flood came upon them.


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## Sarah Bundogji

Hi,

Is there a difference in meaning between hatta and wa? E.g.

مات الناس والأنبياء
مات الناس حتى الأنبياء

What's the difference between the two?


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## HotIcyDonut

Depending on what case noun الأنبياء takes:

If حتى followed by a genitive (حتى الجارة), it means exclusion, while nominative and accusative indicate inclusion.

In your case, it seems to be nominative. So it means prophets are included, i.e. they died too.


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## Ali Smith

Jamal31 said:


> [Moderator's note: merged with a previous thread]
> Hello,
> 
> I was wondering what the difference is in the usage between ثُمَّ and فَـ, both meaning 'then' or 'subsequently'


They both imply sequence, but فَ indicates immediacy while ثُمَّ indicates a delay. Observe:

قَالَ لَهُ صَاحِبُهُ وَهُوَ يُحَاوِرُهُ أَكَفَرْتَ بِالَّذِي خَلَقَكَ مِنْ تُرَابٍ ثُمَّ مِنْ نُطْفَةٍ ثُمَّ سَوَّاكَ رَجُلا
الكهف:٣٧


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## zj73

Ali Smith said:


> هُوَ الَّذِي خَلَقَكُم مِّن نَّفْسٍ وَاحِدَةٍ وَجَعَلَ مِنْهَا زَوْجَهَا لِيَسْكُنَ إِلَيْهَا ۖ فَلَمَّا تَغَشَّاهَا حَمَلَتْ حَمْلًا خَفِيفًا فَمَرَّتْ بِهِ ۖ فَلَمَّا أَثْقَلَت دَّعَوَا اللَّهَ رَبَّهُمَا لَئِنْ آتَيْتَنَا صَالِحًا لَّنَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الشَّاكِرِينَ
> 
> It is He who created you from one soul and created from it its mate that he might dwell in security with her.


So, God created all of humanity (notice the plural pronoun كم in خلقكم) and then He created Adam's mate? Does that make sense?


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## Romeel

He created offspring and placed them in Adam, then He created Eve. What is the problem with this?

On the other hand, there is no differentiation in the English language between the نفس and the روح, and this is a problem for those who want to explain such matters. I even have this problem translating my story because of this!


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## Ali Smith

So, if you wanted to say something like "Allah created the angels and then us." would you say خَلَقَ اللهُ الْمَلائِكَةَ فَإيّانا?


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## Romeel

Ali Smith said:


> So, if you wanted to say something like "Allah created the angels and then us." would you say خَلَقَ اللهُ الْمَلائِكَةَ فَإيّانا?


The best is: خلق اللهُ الملائكة ثم خلقنا
Or
خلق الله الملائكة ثم نحن
خلق الله الملائكة ثم ايّانا


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## Ali Smith

خلق الله الملائكة ثم نحن seems wrong to me. Why would نحن be used? It's مرفوع!


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## Romeel

Ali Smith said:


> خلق الله الملائكة ثم نحن seems wrong to me. Why would نحن be used? It's مرفوع!


Yes you are right


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## 𒍝𒊑𒈾 𒂵𒉿𒀉

Ali Smith said:


> خلق الله الملائكة ثم نحن seems wrong to me. Why would نحن be used? It's مرفوع!


No, نحن is not مرفوع. It is mabnee.


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## Mahaodeh

𒍝𒊑𒈾 𒂵𒉿𒀉 said:


> No, نحن is not مرفوع. It is mabnee.


That’s irrelevant, it’s ضمير رفع, meaning it’s used when it’s in the case of رفع except when it’s used as توكيد. 

For نصب you should use إيانا.


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