# wonder, window, under (pronunciation 'nd')



## the1dsuniverse

Hey guys! I've noticed that in most words that have "nd" in them, such as wonder, wonderland, under, understand, window, handle... the "D" sound isn't really pronunced (?) I might be wrong but I don't really ever hear the "D" sound as in "delete" for example, where it's really clear, but for instance when people say "underground" or "window" the sound I hear after the "N" is more like that of a flap T, as in "ladder", that kind of D. I don't know I basically distinguish between the D as in "delete" or "day", and the D in "ladder" "badder", where it sounds more like a flap T, if that makes sense.

But then in words that have "ND" in them I just don't ever hear people say the D sound as in "day" and I just wanna know if it's me or if there might actually be more to it.

Anyway I'm probably wrong but I just really need to know because I've been going over this and over this for over a week now and I haven't really been able to come to a conclusion.

Thanks in advance, and by the way, sorry for the probably lousy explanation I'm just really bad at explaining things


----------



## Sprachliebhaber

To me, the _d_ is a voiced consonant and is pronounced as such in all the words you mention. "Ladder" and "badder" are not pronounced (by me) as "latter" and "batter".

Incidentally, "wanna" should be "want to" (Rule 11).


----------



## Anjinha1109

Hola, no sé bien qué querés decir, pero por lo que entiendo y sé al respecto de las palabras que escribiste, no es precisamente eso que pusiste... que yo sepa en ninguna de esas palabras se deja de pronunciar la "D", lo que sé por ejemplo en "wonder" o "under", la "R" final no se pronuncia, como te muestra la pronunciación "ˈwʌndə" y "ˈʌndə".
Con respecto a las "T" y la "D", a veces, según el lugar donde estés, o el tipo de inglés que estudies, palabras con "D" o "TT", sí se pronuncian como "R", como podrás ver en las películas, canciones, etc... por ejemplo "you don't know", "you ron' know", "it doesn't matters" dicen: "it doesn' mærer" ... si escuchás la pronunciación "US" dice "merer" en cambio en la opción de listen "UK" dice: "mata" .
Espero que haya sido de utilidad la información. Avisame si querés o necesitás que lo escriba en inglés, se me complica un poco para éste tipo de explicaciones, pero no es imposible.
Please let me know if you need to translate it!.


----------



## Sprachliebhaber

La pronunciación con la _r_ de "matter" ("merer") no es usual en la pronunciación "US": nunca la he oído. Es verdad que muchos por aquí pronuncian la _r_ final en palabras como "wonder", "under".


----------



## Anjinha1109

Es lo que sé y por lo que estudié en "IICANA" (instituto de intercambio cultural argentino norteamericano), además lo dice y podés escucharlo acá mismo en el diccionario, en las películas e incluso en canciones que llegan a Argentina.


----------



## Sprachliebhaber

No oigo el sonido de la _r_ de "merer" en la pronunciación de "matter" del diccionario WR, y menos aún en la pronunciación del diccionario Webster, que más se aproxima a la que uso y que oigo. Desconozco las películas y canciones que llegan a Argentina, y no quiero ofender, pero si quisiera aprender italiano, digamos, por preferencia lo estudiaría en Italia. Claro, no dudo que el IICANA es un instituto excelente.


----------



## Penyafort

Well, many Americans pronounce -t(t)- as a flap (so very similar to a Spanish -r-) and -nt- as a nasalized flap or an n, so t-dropping exists for many in words like _twenty, winter, Internet... _But I always hear the d in -nd- words. I only hear people dropping the d in -nd- when it is followed by another consonant, as in _Do you understa*nd* me? _But not in words like _under _or _wonder_.


----------



## Aviador

Sprachliebhaber said:


> La pronunciación con la _r_ de "matter" ("merer") no es usual en la pronunciación "US": nunca la he oído. Es verdad que muchos por aquí pronuncian la _r_ final en palabras como "wonder", "under".


Evidentemente a lo que se refiere Anjinha1 109 es a la pronunciación de tt como la erre simple del español (como en _pare, _stop), no a la erre del inglés.


----------



## sound shift

the1dsuniverse said:


> Hey guys! I've noticed that in most words that have "nd" in them, such as wonder, wonderland, under, understand, window, handle... the "D" sound isn't really pronunced (?)


My experience of this is different; I have to disagree with you.


----------



## Aviador

sound shift said:


> the1dsuniverse said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey guys! I've noticed that in most words that have "nd" in them, such as wonder, wonderland, under, understand, window, handle... the "D" sound isn't really pronunced (?)
> 
> 
> 
> My experience of this is different; I have to disagree with you.
Click to expand...

As a Spanish native speaker, I must also disagree. In the normal pronunciation of that sequence by English native speakers I always clearly hear the /d/ sound.


----------



## Cenzontle

Everything Penyafort said (#7, above) is correct, in my opinion.
In American English, the phonemes /t/ and /d/ are pronounced as an apical (tip of the tongue) flap, in certain environments.
The movement of the tongue is identical to that of the Spanish single "r" as in "para".  Am.Eng. "pot o' tea" sounds much like Sp. "para ti".
Many speakers don't like to admit this flapping, or at least have a hard time associating it with the appearance of the letter "r",
but to Spanish-speakers it sounds like "r".
I join all the others who have said they do not hear the /d/ of "wonder" being omitted.
With /n*t*/, it's a different story.  My mother had an uncle who lived in the town of *Winner*, South Dakota.
As a child I thought I was hearing "Win*t*er", with its (frequently) silent "t".


----------



## Amapolas

Cenzontle said:


> Everything Penyafort said (#7, above) is correct, in my opinion.
> In American English, the phonemes /t/ and /d/ are pronounced as an apical (tip of the tongue) flap, in certain environments.
> The movement of the tongue is identical to that of the Spanish single "r" as in "para".  Am.Eng. "pot o' tea" sounds much like Sp. "para ti".
> Many speakers don't like to admit this flapping, or at least have a hard time associating it with the appearance of the letter "r",
> but to Spanish-speakers it sounds like "r".
> I join all the others who have said they do not hear the /d/ of "wonder" being omitted.
> With /n*t*/, it's a different story.  My mother had an uncle who lived in the town of *Winner*, South Dakota.
> As a child I thought I was hearing "Win*t*er", with its (frequently) silent "t".


Esta es una excelente explicación.


----------



## the1dsuniverse

Thank you all so much for your responses! I guess I didn't make myself clear enough, though. I had kind of a hard time trying to explain to you guys what I meant but it's not like I hear the /d/ in "wonder" being omitted, but more like it doesn't sound like a /d/ to me if that makes sense. The /d/ that I hear in -nd- words is more like the /d/ in "adding", "addict", "fiddle", "maddening", "muddy", "nodded", "riddle", "waddle", "model" (okay I know that's a lot of examples but I wanted you to understand what kind of /d/ I meant, for example, in all those words, the /d/ sounds more like an R in spanish (as in "para"), and what I mean is that, to me, "wonderland", "blunder", "bonding", "candy", "defender" (here are a couple more "nd words"), instead of really pronouncing the /d/ sound, what  I hear is more like an R in spanish (as in "para"). I don't know, it's just what I hear.

In British English I do hear the /d/ sound, but in American english I just don't. And also in words where the /d/ is stressed, such as "condition" or "rendition" I also do hear the /d/ sound pretty clearly, it's just with the kind of words that I listed above.

So yeah I just hope you guys can understand me better this time, I really tried my best  And also sorry for the late reply but I've just been really busy with school.

Thanks in advance <3


----------



## the1dsuniverse

Oh and also I forgot to add


the1dsuniverse said:


> Thank you all so much for your responses! I guess I didn't make myself clear enough, though. I had kind of a hard time trying to explain to you guys what I meant but it's not like I hear the /d/ in "wonder" being omitted, but more like it doesn't sound like a /d/ to me if that makes sense. The /d/ that I hear in -nd- words is more like the /d/ in "adding", "addict", "fiddle", "maddening", "muddy", "nodded", "riddle", "waddle", "model" (okay I know that's a lot of examples but I wanted you to understand what kind of /d/ I meant, for example, in all those words, the /d/ sounds more like an R in spanish (as in "para"), and what I mean is that, to me, "wonderland", "blunder", "bonding", "candy", "defender" (here are a couple more "nd words"), instead of really pronouncing the /d/ sound, what  I hear is more like an R in spanish (as in "para"). I don't know, it's just what I hear.
> 
> In British English I do hear the /d/ sound, but in American english I just don't. And also in words where the /d/ is stressed, such as "condition" or "rendition" I also do hear the /d/ sound pretty clearly, it's just with the kind of words that I listed above.
> 
> So yeah I just hope you guys can understand me better this time, I really tried my best  And also sorry for the late reply but I've just been really busy with school.
> 
> Thanks in advance <3


Ohh and also I forgot to add the two words where I see this "nd thing" the most, which are "Monday" and "Sunday", I just don't hear the /d/ sound as in "Tuesday" or "Thursday", to me the /d/ sound in "Monday" and "Sunday" is also pronounced as the /d/ in "muddy" or "nodded" as I listed above.


----------



## duvija

OK, same story again. You're right, the1dsuniverse, you don't hear the d/t after nasal in Am.Eng. because it's normally not pronounced (let say, it depends on "rate of speech". The faster it is, the less you hear it.) But native speakers don't know they are doing that, and non-natives can't even imagine why it happens - plus they may not even notice.

The full environment for 'skipping the stop', voiced (/d/) or unvoiced (/t/) is:

Stressed syllable ending in nasal, followed by unstressed syllable starting with t/d, if followed by vowel.

Meaning, you need a lot of stuff. It doesn't happen when the [t/d] is followed by consonant (r or l) as in 'entry'. If it is a branching onset, that protects the sound you're talking about. Look at all the examples, and don't worry about the t sounding like a Spanish [r] or anything irrelevant. Don't be afraid, your hearing is fantastic.

Just to add: This is not a rule, it's not mandatory, but it may or may not happen. Relax.


----------



## duvija

By the way, check 'mandatory'. That [d] tends to be nothing.


----------



## the1dsuniverse

duvija said:


> OK, same story again. You're right, the1dsuniverse, you don't hear the d/t after nasal in Am.Eng. because it's normally not pronounced (let say, it depends on "rate of speech". The faster it is, the less you hear it.) But native speakers don't know they are doing that, and non-natives can't even imagine why it happens - plus they may not even notice.
> 
> The full environment for 'skipping the stop', voiced (/d/) or unvoiced (/t/) is:
> 
> Stressed syllable ending in nasal, followed by unstressed syllable starting with t/d, if followed by vowel.
> 
> Meaning, you need a lot of stuff. It doesn't happen when the [t/d] is followed by consonant (r or l) as in 'entry'. If it is a branching onset, that protects the sound you're talking about. Look at all the examples, and don't worry about the t sounding like a Spanish [r] or anything irrelevant. Don't be afraid, your hearing is fantastic.
> 
> Just to add: This is not a rule, it's not mandatory, but it may or may not happen. Relax.


This is exactly what I mean! Okay so I think most of my examples ("wonderland", "blunder", "bonding", "candy", "defender") fall into this category that you mentioned which may or may not happen "Stressed syllable ending in nasal, followed by unstressed syllable starting with t/d, if followed by vowel."

And yes you're also right when you say it depends on rate of speech because when American people speak slowly, I might be able to get to hear that /d/ after the /n/, but most of the times I just didn't, what I heard instead was some kind of spanish "R", the same kind of R that I find in words like "badder" or "waddle" or even "model", and it was really starting to unsettle me because I thought maybe it was just me that I was somehow reading way too into it and it was in fact nothing like that!

Anyway, thank you so much for making it clear


----------



## duvija

the1dsuniverse said:


> This is exactly what I mean! Okay so I think most of my examples ("wonderland", "blunder", "bonding", "candy", "defender") fall into this category that you mentioned which may or may not happen "Stressed syllable ending in nasal, followed by unstressed syllable starting with t/d, if followed by vowel."
> 
> And yes you're also right when you say it depends on rate of speech because when American people speak slowly, I might be able to get to hear that /d/ after the /n/, but most of the times I just didn't, what I heard instead was some kind of spanish "R", the same kind of R that I find in words like "badder" or "waddle" or even "model", and it was really starting to unsettle me because I thought maybe it was just me that I was somehow reading way too into it and it was in fact nothing like that!
> 
> Anyway, thank you so much for making it clear



Bueno, menos mal. Ya se habló de este tema en varios hilos y nunca queda clara la pregunta (y mucho menos la respuesta, pero es la que siempre doy. Trabajo en fonología/fonética y esto es un tema interesante, por lo complicado).


----------



## the1dsuniverse

duvija said:


> Bueno, menos mal. Ya se habló de este tema en varios hilos y nunca queda clara la pregunta (y mucho menos la respuesta, pero es la que siempre doy. Trabajo en fonología/fonética y esto es un tema interesante, por lo complicado).


Ya... es que cuando miras en wordreference o en cualquier otro diccionario la fonética, siempre te sale la /d/ como si se pronunciara igual que todas, y como a veces se distingue y a veces no, pues siempre me lío y nunca se cómo pronunciarlo. Aparte que no tenía ni idea si era algo que en verdad existía o simplemente me lo parecía a mi porque intenté buscarlo en internet y en youtube y en más páginas, y no encontré nada; por eso fue que pregunté aquí


----------



## duvija

the1dsuniverse said:


> Ya... es que cuando miras en wordreference o en cualquier otro diccionario la fonética, siempre te sale la /d/ como si se pronunciara igual que todas, y como a veces se distingue y a veces no, pues siempre me lío y nunca se cómo pronunciarlo. Aparte que no tenía ni idea si era algo que en verdad existía o simplemente me lo parecía a mi porque intenté buscarlo en internet y en youtube y en más páginas, y no encontré nada; por eso fue que pregunté aquí



¡Hiciste muy bien!


----------



## Forero

duvija said:


> By the way, check 'mandatory'. That [d] tends to be nothing.


This is false for me. I barely pronounce the _d_ in _and_, but I always clearly pronounce the one in _mandatory_. It is of course less aspirated than the _d_ in _dog_, but it is a [d], not a flap or a tap.

I associate dropping the _d_ in words like _mandatory_ and _under_ with New York City, the Mafia, and rural Tennessee. Is it really common in Chicago?

I have never heard _wonder_ or _window_ without the [d]. People who pronounce _under_ as "unner" might pronounce _window_ as "winder" but not as "winner" or "winnow".

The Popeye animated cartoon character has a unique way of speaking that includes "unnerstan" for _understand_ (and "fisk" for _fish_ and _fist_). I don't know where he is supposedly from.

I know some people who say "hunnert" for _hundred_ and pronounce _intercity_ and _intracity_ just like _innercity_, but most people around me make the distinction no matter how fast they talk.

Unlike anyone else I know, my own parents said "hannel" for _handle_ about half the time (and "cammel" for _Campbell_ always).


----------



## duvija

Forero said:


> This is false for me. I barely pronounce the _d_ in _and_, but I always clearly pronounce the one in _mandatory_. It is of course less aspirated than the _d_ in _dog_, but it is a [d], not a flap or a tap.
> 
> I associate dropping the _d_ in words like _mandatory_ and _under_ with New York City, the Mafia, and rural Tennessee. Is it really common in Chicago?
> 
> I have never heard _wonder_ or _window_ without the [d]. People who pronounce _under_ as "unner" might pronounce _window_ as "winder" but not as "winner" or "winnow".
> 
> The Popeye animated cartoon character has a unique way of speaking that includes "unnerstan" for _understand_ (and "fisk" for _fish_ and _fist_). I don't know where he is supposedly from.
> 
> I know some people who say "hunnert" for _hundred_ and pronounce _intercity_ and _intracity_ just like _innercity_, but most people around me make the distinction no matter how fast they talk.
> 
> Unlike anyone else I know, my own parents said "hannel" for _handle_ about half the time (and "cammel" for _Campbell_ always).



Try to listen to talk shows, radio or TV. They are unbearable, but it's the best place for people to pronounce as if they were 'at home'.


----------



## the1dsuniverse

Forero said:


> This is false for me. I barely pronounce the _d_ in _and_, but I always clearly pronounce the one in _mandatory_. It is of course less aspirated than the _d_ in _dog_, but it is a [d], not a flap or a tap.
> 
> I associate dropping the _d_ in words like _mandatory_ and _under_ with New York City, the Mafia, and rural Tennessee. Is it really common in Chicago?
> 
> I have never heard _wonder_ or _window_ without the [d]. People who pronounce _under_ as "unner" might pronounce _window_ as "winder" but not as "winner" or "winnow".
> 
> The Popeye animated cartoon character has a unique way of speaking that includes "unnerstan" for _understand_ (and "fisk" for _fish_ and _fist_). I don't know where he is supposedly from.
> 
> I know some people who say "hunnert" for _hundred_ and pronounce _intercity_ and _intracity_ just like _innercity_, but most people around me make the distinction no matter how fast they talk.
> 
> Unlike anyone else I know, my own parents said "hannel" for _handle_ about half the time (and "cammel" for _Campbell_ always).


I didn't mean you don't pronounce the /d/ in 'mandatory', I only said it was not the same kind of /d/ as in 'dog' for example, and it sounded kind of a flap T to me (depending on how fast you're speaking). And I also don't mean like "unner" or "winnow", the sound that I was referring to is the same one as in "muddy", "nodded", "addict", "waddle", etc. (that kind of /d/). The word "hundred" doesn't really fall under that category either, since it's not followed by a vowel, but by an R (I do pronounce "hundred" the way it should normally be pronounced and I also do hear people pronounce it that way.) As for the word "handle", even though it's not followed by a vowel, I still hear people say "handle" as if it was a flap T, the same kind of sound you can find in words such as "fiddle" or "model".


----------



## ChemaSaltasebes

I think Cenzontle's comment in #11 is quite clarifying.
Still, there is a subtle difference between the Spanish single non-initial "r" and the alveolar tap (the tip of the tongue) that is rather common in some (specially American English) -nd- words (and as Forero suggests there seems not to be a general rule for when or with what words this particular "d" happens -and by the way, I believe we are not talking of that exaggerated "unner" sound. And "mandatory" is probably not the best example either).

The alveolar flap in (some) AmEn, like in "bu*tt*er" or "to*t*al", sounds very much like the Spanish single non-initial "r". Yet, the "d" that we (Spaniards) hear when some of you guys say "Mon*d*ay" or in "Won*d*erland" is close to our "r" (because the tongue is tapped quite at the same spot in both cases) but it is not the alveolar flap of "butter" (even though we -Spanish- tend to confuse those sounds); there is some "vibration" (sonoridad, no roce) added to the Spanish "r". Precisely, there you have the English "d" characteristic "vibration" (sonoridad), reason why most English speakers do not notice; but this is a "d" that is played somewhat posterior to where regular "d" is. I feel this "d" we are talking about is produced somewhere closer to where the Spanish "r" is played than where regular English "d" is produced. And from the comments above, it seems that the particular differentiated "d" sound that is produced is quite more noticeable for us Spaniards than for them natives after all!.


----------



## the1dsuniverse

Soo does this mean I'm just sort of right? The only thing I know for sure is this is a very twisted issue and I don't really how to face -nd- words now because everyone has different opinions on what we should do


----------



## ChemaSaltasebes

Si quieres un consejo, olvídate de esa "pseudo ere" que oyes y pronuncia la "de" (la inglesa, no la española). Ya llegará un momento en que te salga casi sola esa "d", ¡pero no lo fuerces! (si pronuncias la "d" en -nd- como una "d" inglesa "normal", todo el mundo lo oirá como correcto; si pronuncias "raro", todo el mundo lo oirá... "raro").


----------



## ctrl4ltdeleteme

Sprachliebhaber said:


> To me, the _d_ is a voiced consonant and is pronounced as such in all the words you mention. "Ladder" and "badder" are not pronounced (by me) as "latter" and "batter".


For me, the "latter" and "batter" are pronounced like "ladder" and "badder" and not the inverse.


----------



## ctrl4ltdeleteme

ChemaSaltasebes said:


> Si quieres un consejo, olvídate de esa "pseudo ere" que oyes y pronuncia la "de" (la inglesa, no la española). Ya llegará un momento en que te salga casi sola esa "d", ¡pero no lo fuerces! (si pronuncias la "d" en -nd- como una "d" inglesa "normal", todo el mundo lo oirá como correcto; si pronuncias "raro", todo el mundo lo oirá... "raro").



This makes sense to me, I pronounce my spanish d's with the upper front of my tongue flat against my front teeth. I pronounce american d's with the front side(portion between top and bottom) of my tongue against the roof of my mouth, right around the gum-line of my teeth.


----------



## Forero

For me:

<stressed.vowel + n + t + unstressed.vowel> normally becomes <nasalized stressed vowel + unvoiced tap + unstressed vowel>. This tap may become voiced in fast speech.
<stressed.vowel + n + d + unstressed.vowel> is not simplified: minimal nasalization, clear alveolar n, clear alveolar d (with minimal aspiration), not a tap or a flap.


----------



## Cenzontle

> <stressed.vowel + n + t + unstressed.vowel> normally becomes <nasalized stressed vowel + *unvoiced *tap + unstressed vowel>. This tap may become voiced in fast speech.
> <stressed.vowel + n + d + unstressed.vowel> is not simplified: minimal nasalization, clear alveolar n, clear alveolar d (with minimal aspiration), not a tap or a flap.


My (fast) pronunciation agrees with this very clear description except for the "unvoiced" that I've tinted red.
For me, if the speech is fast enough to *make *the flap, it's fast enough to *voice *the flap; I don't bother to turn off my voice between the two vowels.  
It's hard for me to imagine a voiceless flap.  Pardon me, tap.
We might make this discussion concrete by citing "hunter" and "thunder" as examples.
How does anyone feel about rhyming (fast) "hunter" with "runner"?


----------



## ilya

Interesting. I've little experience with native speakers, but recall that very educated American journalist I interviewed once, and of course he spoke a perfect standard English. But to him, the then Secretary of State was Kannaliza Rais.  No D anywhere.


----------



## Cenzontle

I didn't notice "Kannaliza" during that time, but it sounds like the same over-familiar slurring that Washington insiders use in naming their city:  "Wash-n-n".


----------



## duvija

Just want to say that 'we shouldn't' do anything. Those are automatic processes, and they come out when they come out. Easy for natives, hard for learners. The problem is that we call that stuff 'a rule', which is misunderstood as 'a law'. It isn't. Grammatical rules are not ... or else.


----------



## ChemaSaltasebes

I would perfectly "buy" <(alveolar n plus) alveolar d with minimal aspiration> instead of <alveolar tap (d)>. The interesting point here is precisely that (agreed) "alveolarization" of English "d" in these cases, which is the basis for our (Spanish) clear (and rather weird) differentiation between regular English "d" and that alveolar one -as well as the reason why we hear "ere". Or "te". You must understand that for us the English "d" does sound completely foreign and it is somehow close to a "te" for us. And that when you make your "d" sound different -and play it even "further" from our "de"- it is just hard for us to hear any "d" sound anymore.
So, anyhow, as duvija suggests, we shouldn't do anything about it; just try to pronounce the English "d", also here, and "somehow" the tongue and the ear will eventually come to some sort of agreement.


----------



## duvija

ChemaSaltasebes said:


> I would perfectly "buy" <(alveolar n plus) alveolar d with minimal aspiration> instead of <alveolar tap (d)>. The interesting point here is precisely that (agreed) "alveolarization" of English "d" in these cases, which is the basis for our (Spanish) clear (and rather weird) differentiation between regular English "d" and that alveolar one -as well as the reason why we hear "ere". Or "te". You must understand that for us the English "d" does sound completely foreign and it is somehow close to a "te" for us. And that when you make your "d" sound different -and play it even "further" from our "de"- it is just hard for us to hear any "d" sound anymore.
> So, anyhow, as duvija suggests, we shouldn't do anything about it; just try to pronounce the English "d", also here, and "somehow" the tongue and the ear will eventually come to some sort of agreement.


----------



## Forero

I understand that the English /d/ is not like a Spanish /d/ (since it is not dental), but the /nd/ I am talking about is the same as in French, Italian, or German. The tap is something else.


----------



## the1dsuniverse

Okay then! Thank you all so much for your prompt replies as well as your time


----------

