# Urdu/Persian: Sales Office



## Sheikh_14

Dear Foreros,

In the languages above what term would you apply for a sales office and would you opt for the plural form I.e. Sales or the singular in sale (with regards to the translation of course)?

Best Regards,
Sheikh


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## truce

Sheikh_14 said:


> Dear Foreros,
> 
> In the languages above what term would you apply for a sales office and would you opt for the plural form I.e. Sales or the singular in sale (with regards to the translation of course)?
> 
> Best Regards,
> Sheikh


Singular >>> دفتر فروش
Plural >>> دفاتر فروش


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## Sheikh_14

Hi there Truce, if I am not wrong would that translate to as office of the seller rather than sales office in terms of a verbatim translation? Btw that is quite an interesting take and the one that google translate returned as well.


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## PersoLatin

^ فروشنده is a seller, فروش is sale, sell. You can see it in the term, خريد و فروش which means 'buy & sell'

So these are correct for Persian:
Singular >>> دفتر فروش
Plural >>> دفاتر فروش
Or
گيشه ى فروش (gišéye foruš) - box office


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## Alfaaz

Sheikh_14 said:
			
		

> Hi there Truce, if I am not wrong would that translate to as office of the seller rather than sales office in terms of a verbatim translation?





			
				PersoLatin said:
			
		

> ^ فروشنده is a seller, فروش is sale, sell. You can see it in the term, خريد و فروش which means 'buy & sell'


 Sheikh_14's confusion might have arisen due to the common usage of فروش in compounds to mean _seller_, as mentioned by the Platts entry. In Urdu, خرید و فروخت interestingly seems to be more common, but it is still فروش گاہ for _market._ 


> P فروش _firosh_, vulg. _farosh_ (rt. of _firoḵẖtan_; see _firoḵẖt_), part. adj. & s.m. Selling;—seller (used as last member of compounds, e.g. _mewa-farosh_, 'fruit-seller');—s.f. Selling, sale (=_faroḵẖt_):—_farosh karnā_, v.t. To sell:—_farosh honā_, v.n. To be sold.


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## truce

In Frasi "فروش" in general means "sales". But some times when it comes after a noun it means "فروشنده". The same as "-monger" in English. Take a look at the example below:
fishmonger >>>> فروشنده ماهی <<<< ماهی فروش


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## Sheikh_14

Indeed we use faroxt more so than farosh for sales. Do Perso-phones also use faroxt for sales along with farosh? As for Urdu speakers' what is the term for sales office in Urdu? DAFTAR e Faroxt (my phone is capitalising Daftar for no good reason), perhaps? My confusion was only with regards to whether we would refer to sales in the singular or plural in Urdu I.e. As faroxthaa or faroxt to suffix DAFTAR e & dafaatir e. Lastly the modern day pronunciation of فروش in Persian is Firosh, farosh or furosh?


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## PersoLatin

In Persian, active participles are made from the present stem and not the past stem, so the idea of foruxt meaning 'sales', in Urdu, is a little odd to me, but let's blame classic Persian 

Saying 'daftare foruxt', is like saying 'sold office' in English, as opposed to 'sales office'. Other examples:
خاك انداز/گوشه گير/زياده رو/شاه پسند/مهمان نواز if you try any of these with the eqv. past stem, you will not get a noun but third person simple past.



Sheikh_14 said:


> Lastly the modern day pronunciation of فروش in Persian is Firosh, farosh or furosh?


It is foruš or foroosh.


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## Alfaaz

*Question:* Are فروختگی and فروشندگی present in modern Persian/Urdu and would they be considered grammatically sound (in light of the interesting grammatical points mentioned above in post #8)?

The following entry is present in Urdu Lughat which mentions both فروختگی and فروشندگی:


> فروختگی
> 
> 1. بیع، فروخت کرنا، بیچنا۔
> 
> ان ہی خیالات کی وجہ سے بیمہ جات کی فروشندگی دوسری اشیا کی فروختگی سے زیادہ مشکل ہے۔"


Rough translation of the example sentence: _Due to exactly these_ خیالات, _the_ فروشندگی _of_ بیمہ جات _is_ زیادہ مشکل _than the_ فروختگی _of_ دیگر اشیاء.

Another option for _sale_ is جمع: بیوع، بیوعات | بیع from Arabic and it is used to form a variety of compounds:

 بیع بالمرابح، بیع بالوفاء، بیع سلطانی، بیع شرطی، بیع قطعی، بیع میعادی، بیع جائز/حقیقی، بیع ناجائز، بیع جبری، بیع ناقص، بیع نامہ، بیع نمائشی، بیع و شریٰ، بیع خانگی، بیع سازشی، بیع فریبی، بیع مطلق، بیع فاسد
​_Feroz ul Lughaat_ entries and _Platts_ entry


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## truce

"فروشندگی" is being used in Farsi but "فروختگی" is not.


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## PersoLatin

Hi Alfaaz,



Alfaaz said:


> *Question:* Are فروختگی and فروشندگی present in modern Persian/Urdu and would they be considered grammatically sound (in light of the interesting grammatical points mentioned above in post #8)?


As truce has already said, فروختگى is not used in Persian, that's because it does not make sense, and grammatically speaking, I would say, is wrong.



Alfaaz said:


> Rough translation of the example sentence: _Due to exactly these_ خیالات, _the_ فروشندگی _of_ بیمہ جات _is_ زیادہ مشکل _than the_ فروختگی _of_ دیگر اشیاء.


This is even more intriguing, in your example there seems to be a difference between فروختگى (subject to above comments) & فروشندگى, depending on the item of sale, am I right?

Also, فروشندگى is the noun form of فروشنده, which in effect means 'salesmanship', so I think that's not being used correctly either in the example, as I think it is used in the sense of 'sale'.

Are there any examples of other verbs, being used in this way?


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## Sheikh_14

indeed faroshandagii refers to salesmanship and not sales exactly. Alfaaz saaHib what would you call a Sales Office? Besides obviously a sales office ☺


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## Alfaaz

truce and PersoLatin: Thanks for the informative answers!


			
				PersoLatin said:
			
		

> This is even more intriguing, in your example there seems to be a difference between فروختگى (subject to above comments) & فروشندگى, depending on the item of sale, am I right?
> 
> Also, فروشندگى is the noun form of فروشنده, which in effect means 'salesmanship', so I think that's not being used correctly either in the example, as I think it is used in the sense of 'sale'.
> 
> Are there any examples of other verbs, being used in this way?


 These are good questions and I hope other forum members with greater knowledge of grammar (in comparison to me!) would be able to elucidate.  Could the sentence perhaps be interpreted as: _The salesmanship of insurance policies is more difficult than selling other products..._? However, it could also be that there is a mistake in the sentence and/or usage.


			
				Sheikh_14 said:
			
		

> Alfaaz saaHib what would you call a Sales Office? Besides obviously a sales office



From Indic origin words for _sale_, بِکری کا دفتر might be an option, but this could probably be viewed as a _description_ rather than a _term_.  
Next, the Persian origin words have been discussed above and there seems to be some disagreement or confusion about which ones to use/whether to use singular forms or plural forms. In addition, it was mentioned that دفترِ فروخت might be grammatically incorrect (at least from the perspective of Persian grammar).
Lastly, the Arabic origin word mentioned above (بیع) is used in compounds and can be easily pluralized. However, the plurals might not be recognized by everyone at first glance.
In light of everything outlined above, دفترِ/دفاترِ بیوع appears to be an appropriate translation for right now...until other forum members could hopefully elaborate on which Persian origin words would be most appropriate to employ in this context or if there are other Indic origin words for _sale(s)_ which would be considered acceptable...!? 

If there are any mistakes, corrections would be highly appreciated!


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## Sheikh_14

I don't think we have to tie modern day Urdu terms with Persiab grammar. It is natural for derived words to take on separate course from their origin. Nonetheless daftar e faroxt/firoxt is one, how about DAFTAR e firosh/farosh as another, just as has been mentioned as an alternative in Farsi? As far as Urdu is concerned, both would be correct. It appears that you would have used DAFTAR e faroxt prior to the qualms of Farsi-phones. For your alternative with regards to bikrii why not just bikrii DAFTAR or DAFTAR-bikrii in a hyphenated form rather than adding the kaa. Of course the addition of a kaa would too be correct but for the sake of brevity I feel it is a good option to have. With regards to the qualms of Farsi-phones I have this to say that there are ways round expressing a sold office in lieu of a sales office so far as Urdu is concerned. Had the office been sold it would merely be a faroxt DAFTAR not a DAFTAR e faroxt for us at least the izaafat suggests something is going on rather than has already taken place. Whilst if he'll broke lose in terms of confusion than simply adding a kardaa or shudah would be enough as in faroxt-kardaa/shudah DAFTAR, though in my opinion this is merely erring in favour of over-correctness and faroxt DAFTAR would suffice for a sold office in contrast to DAFTAR e faroxt or in fact DAFTAR e xariid-faroxt.


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## Sheikh_14

Btw how would you pluralise faroxt, via faroxthaa? Lastly is faroxt seen as masculine or feminine from an Urdu grammer perspective?


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## PersoLatin

فروخت ها sounds so wrong in Persian, I do get that Urdu does its own thing, but in 100 year's time, someone will read this post and then...


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