# Native language, Native of, something wrong in the template?



## Oldy Nuts

When I subscribed to these forums, I was asked for my native language,which I entered as Spanish - Chile. However, I have noticed that in every message, this information is presented as "Native of: Spanish - Chile", which doesn't make much sense. This happens also in messages from (almost) every other person.

Is it too late/too difficult to correct this?


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## Etcetera

Hola Oldy Nuts,

I've always read this as "Native (speaker) of Spanish/English/Italian/etc." Also, some people prefer to enter their native country first, and language then.


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## Oldy Nuts

Hola Etcetera,

Thank you for answering, but if the "(speaker)" was really in the minds of those who designed the page, they did hide it very well. I didn't see it until reading your message, and I still don't see it very clearly.


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## Oldy Nuts

Back to my original question. Everybody reads what Etcetera reads? I still don't, and I still think it should say "Native language:". Which is what one is asked when registering...


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## Tagarela

Hi,

Oldy Nuts, I think the biggest problem is how most users put their information, some only say language, or country, or neither ... or two, three languages and  no country, so that you cannot find out where he is really from. For example, one with "Native of - English, French" may has born in Canada, but also in Britain with an French family... 

For some messages, it doesn´t care much the origin of the user, but it is good to know sometimes, for example, in Portuguese forum,  if you are replied by Brazilian or a Portuguese how to write some expression, you may have different answers and may get confused, so, it is nice to know where the user is from. 

Anyway, your suggestion is interesting. You have my vote (okay, I know, it is written somewhere, that WR is not a democracy!)

Good bye.:


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## Oldy Nuts

"En boca cerrada no entran moscas". Pero entonces tú y yo tendríamos que estar callados. ¿O lo tomas literalmente en el sentido que no es necesario abrir la boca para publicar un mensaje?


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## LV4-26

Hello,

I noticed that when I first registered here.
But the information contained in "native of: English (or whatever)" has always been crystal clear to me. So, it's never bothered me.

As for the exact origin, many members add something (like "English USA" or "UK English"). I don't  and I'm going to change this straight away.


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## TrentinaNE

The profile page where one submits this information says:


> Native language
> Native language and the variety you speak, such as "English - Ireland" or "Mexican Spanish" or "India - Hindi & English", etc. Do not list the languages that you are learning.


Perhaps the display in messages should agree with that.

Elisabetta


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## Oldy Nuts

TrentinaNE said:


> The profile page where one submits this information says:
> 
> Perhaps the display in messages should agree with that.
> 
> Elisabetta



This is what I have been trying to say...


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## Tagarela

Hi,

TrentinaNE, yes, that message is reallw shown when we register in the forum - but even so, many users disrepect it and make a big confusion, by the way, I guess that this message was added after someone has noticed the problem. 

The problem, as I see it, is more on the users than in the forum´s design. 

Oldy Nuts, 
Mi firma es una burla con mi apodo, porque tagarela significa: uno que habla demás =)

Good bye.:


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## Oldy Nuts

Burla no, broma.


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## avok

Hmmmm dont get me wrong but I could not understand the problem here !!  What is oldy nuts complaining about? We can always change our native language etc..if something's wrong.


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## Oldy Nuts

avok said:


> Hmmmm dont get me wrong but I could not understand the problem here !!  What is oldy nuts complaining about? We can always change our native language etc..if something's wrong.



Let me try again. When one registers, one of the fields one is asked to fill says:

_Native language:_

to which I answerd (with details as suggested) _Spanish - Chile_

However, once in the forums I get instead

_Native of: Spanish - Chile_.

As I see it, there is no concordance between this _Native of:_ and what I wrote when asked for my _Native language:_, which is confusing.

I suspect that the many participants for whom one reads something like

_ Native of: Mexico, Spanish_

changed their profiles when they noticed that the information they provided when registering was making them appear as fools...


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## Cagey

I agree with Oldy Nuts.  

There is a discrepency between the label that shows on our profiles and with our posts, which is simply _Native of:_

And the form that we fill out in the control section, where we are asked to fill in a box marked _Native Language_: (e.g., English).

The result is that I, for instance, began with a profile box that read:
_Native of:_ English,  USA  
which is incoherent, as Oldy Nuts points out.
It would be nice to change the label on the profile box to reflect the information it contained.  
(e.g., Native Language: English, USA)

Edit: For instance, Avok, in your post above, you are identified as "_Native of_: Turkish"!  You are, I assume, a _native_ of Turkey, and a _native speaker_ of Turkish.


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## Oldy Nuts

Well, it is comforting to see that I am finally beginning to be understood. And that at least some people agree with me.

I wonder if there are any mods follwing this thread...


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## avok

Hmmm. Can't we say that we are "native of spanish" to mean it is our "native" tongue?


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## Oldy Nuts

avok said:


> Hmmm. Can't we say that we are "native of spanish" to mean it is our "native" tongue?



We can say whatever we wish. However, my point is that, at least in a place such as this forum, we should try to say coherent things, and express them properly.

Changing what to me is an incorrect label is easier than forcing users to change their profiles to accomodate their data to the label, and more correct than inventing/forcing new customized meanings to common expressions.

_Native of Chilean/Turkish_ is simply nonsense.


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## Tagarela

Hi,

I didn´t edit mine, but it is correct. 

"Native of Chilean/Turkish" is not completly nonsense, but it could be better.

If I see "Native of Chilean" I´ll think that the person was born in Chile and his/her mother language is Spanish. But he/she may have Brazilian parents and Portuguese can be native language for him/her as well. So, it is better to make things clear. 

If you write 'Turkey' or 'Turkish' the more logical thought is that the person was born in Turkey and speak Turkish, since it is almost a language for only one country. But something like native of "Spanish" can mean many things.

Perhaps if it was divided: Native country and Mother language we would have no more confusion.

Good bye.:


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## Cagey

avok said:


> Hmmm. Can't we say that we are "native of spanish" to mean it is our "native" tongue?



That is the sense people make of it, but it is not English usage.  If someone posted "I am native of Spanish" in the English-only forum, corrections would be suggested.

Edit: If you look at the profiles of the native English speakers, you will see that many of us have corrected ours to read "_Native of_: Country, Langauge," as I have above.


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## Oldy Nuts

Cagey said:


> That is the sense people make of it, but it is not English usage.  If someone posted "I am native of Spanish" in the English-only forum, corrections would be suggested.
> 
> Edit: If you look at the profiles of the native English speakers, you will see that many of us have corrected ours to read "_Native of_: Country, Langauge," as I have above.


 

This is exactly what I mean: why force the users who note the incongruity and mind about it to make the change many like you have done? I would think it is not all that difficult to correct the label to make it coincident with the one in the subscription form...

Although we are of course wasting our time discussing this, if our comments are not reaching the powers that be...


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## ireney

"The powers that be" usually discuss such matters and this is no exception. Given the work-load of some of the moderators (I am referring to real life work-load - mostly) I think we can all wait a bit longer for an "official" answer.


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## Cagey

ireney said:


> "The powers that be" usually discuss such matters and this is no exception. Given the work-load of some of the moderators (I am referring to real life work-load - mostly) I think we can all wait a bit longer for an "official" answer.



Thanks for getting back to us.  This is hardly pressing; I can certainly wait.


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## avok

In English, if I say I am "native of Spanish" instead of "..native speaker of English", would it grammatically be wrong? 

Maybe I am so used to seeing "Native of (any language)" on WRF, I began to think that "native of Spanish" sounds alright. I guess, it may not be, though?


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## Cagey

avok said:


> In English, if I say I am "native of Spanish" instead of "..native speaker of English", would it grammatically be wrong?
> 
> Maybe I am so used to seeing "Native of (any language)" on WRF, I began to think that "native of Spanish" sounds alright. I guess, it may not be, though?



This may be a question of the meaning of native rather than of grammar.  In the present context, when "native" is used as a _noun_, it refers to a person born in a certain place.  So you would say someone was a "native of Spain", for instance. 

It is used as an _adjective_ to describe a "native speaker of Spanish"  (and also: "native language" "native plant", etc.)


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## Oldy Nuts

ireney said:


> "The powers that be" usually discuss such matters and this is no exception. Given the work-load of some of the moderators (I am referring to real life work-load - mostly) I think we can all wait a bit longer for an "official" answer.



Thank you ireney for a most welcome semi-official answer.

I'm new to these forums, and I find it comforting to learn that here the powers that be do discuss such matters. In other forums I frequent, sometimes one is led to think that they couldn't care less about what users think.

Also in other other forums, moderators are fellow users who have been chosen by the powers that be to act as such, and who do their work without getting anything in return -except for morer curses than thank yous. If such is the case here, I would certainly would't like to press them with something that is not really urgent. However, moderators are not the powers that be, and I think it's for them to solve matters such as this, not for moderators.



Cagey said:


> This may be a question of the meaning of native rather than of grammar.  In the present context, when "native" is used as a _noun_, it refers to a person born in a certain place.  So you would say someone was a "native of Spain", for instance.
> 
> It is used as an _adjective_ to describe a "native speaker of Spanish"  (and also: "native language" "native plant", etc.)



But certainly not "native of Spanish"?


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## pyan

avok said:


> ... Maybe I am so used to seeing "Native of (any language)" on WRF, I began to think that "native of Spanish" sounds alright....



I think this has "hit the nail on the head".  After reading "Native of (any language)" thousands of times it no longer looks ridiculous to me, just odd.


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## ryba

Hi, folks!



Oldy Nuts said:


> Back to my original question. Everybody reads what Etcetera reads? I still don't, and I still think it should say "Native language:". Which is what one is asked when registering...



 I don't think it should say "*Native language:*" as *Native of* means two things: 1) Nationality 2) Native language*. In my case it is: *Native of: Pologne / polonais*.

* where the word "speaker" is omitted. Isn't Native of English just an informal, shorter way of saying Native speaker of English?

I am a native of Poland and a native of Polish. You can be a native of the Republic of Poland and a Polish and Belorussian native speaker, for example.

I don't find it redundant because *Location* is something else, you can be a native of the Republic of Poland, a Polish and Belorussian native speaker and live in Chile.

It is interesting, however, that once you click the personal profile, you see:

*Edad*: 22
*
Native language*: Pologne / polonais

*Location*: Poznań, Polska

*etc.*

 What has always drawn my attention was that *Native of* is *never translated*. My forum language is Spanish now. *Native of* should be replaced with *Nativo de*, just like *Age* is replaced with *Edad*, shouldn't it?

*Location* doesn't change either.


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## Oldy Nuts

ryba said:


> Hi, folks!
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think it should say "*Native language:*" as *Native of* means two things: 1) Nationality 2) Native language*. In my case it is: *Native of: Pologne / polonais*.
> 
> * where the word "speaker" is omitted. Isn't Native of English just an informal, shorter way of saying Native speaker of English?
> 
> I am a native of Poland and a native of Polish. You can be a native of the Republic of Poland and a Polish and Belorussian native speaker, for example.
> 
> I don't find it redundant because *Location* is something else, you can be a native of the Republic of Poland, a Polish and Belorussian native speaker and live in Chile.
> 
> It is interesting, however, that once you click the personal profile, you see:
> 
> *Edad*: 22
> *
> Native language*: Pologne / polonais
> 
> *Location*: Poznań, Polska
> 
> *etc.*
> 
> What has always drawn my attention was that *Native of* is *never translated*. My forum language is Spanish now. *Native of* should be replaced with *Nativo de*, just like *Age* is replaced with *Edad*, shouldn't it?
> 
> *Location* doesn't change either.



I find it curious that non native English speakers posting here seem to be prone to thinking that "native of Polish/Turkish/Spanish" is correct, while the native speakers of English who have posted here think it is not.


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## avok

But even "pyan" who is native of English )) says that :



> I think this has "hit the nail on the head". After reading "Native of (any language)" thousands of times it no longer looks ridiculous to me, just odd.


 
Of course "native of a land" is better.


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## Oldy Nuts

After reading "Native of (any language)" thousands of times it no longer looks ridiculous to me, just odd.                                                                                                                                                                                  



I may be dumber than usual, but to me this does not imply in any way that pyan thinks the expression is correct. Only that she has gotten used to reading it here, but she still finds it odd. She doesn't say anything about having read/heard elsewhere.

"Native of a land" is not only better, it is also correct, while "native of a language" is incorrect.


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## ryba

Oldy Nuts said:


> I find it curious that non native English speakers posting here seem to be prone to thinking that "native of Polish/Turkish/Spanish" is correct, while the native speakers of English who have posted here think it is not.


I am sorry, I didn't read all the posts.

Anyway, *Native of English* is always a shorter version of *Native speaker of English* to me. An informal one but still valid. O.K., I am not an English native speaker I'm just saying what my impression is.

Use Google, you'll find like *233 000* results for "*Native of English*" while "*English native speaker*" appears only *96 500 *times.

"*Native speaker of English*" appears *303 000* times. It is not that many compared with the "wrong" version.


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## avok

Oldy Nuts said:


> ..."Native of a land" is not only better, it is also correct, while "native of a language" is incorrect.


 
OK.. But then why any native English speaker have not said it is incorrect yet?? There are many odd grammatical structures that may be grammatically correct.
And if it is incorrect then where shall I write my language??


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## Oldy Nuts

ryba said:


> I am sorry, I didn't read all the posts.
> 
> Anyway, *Native of English* is always a shorter version of *Native speaker of English* to me. An informal one but still valid. O.K., I am not an English native speaker I'm just saying what my impression is.
> 
> Use Google, you'll find like *233 000* results for "*Native of English*" while "*English native speaker*" appears only *96 500 *times.
> 
> "*Native speaker of English*" appears *303 000* times. It is not that many compared with the "wrong" version.



Simple numbers of hits in Google searches do not seem to me to be powerful arguments in a discussion such as this. I have also just made a Google search for "native of English", and took the time to take a look at some hits.

The two first were the "*Native of: English*..." part of messages posted in these forums, which is just what I am questioning.

The third reads: "We have to take into account that the writer is not *native of English*, but Spanish", posted in another similar forum by a Spanish student of translation.

The fourth was in an ad odffering part time jobs in Korea, and states: "Qualification: 1: *Native of English* proficiency  is a must". No comment.

Then came another job offer, this time in Japan: "*Native of English* with sufficient Competence for the Japanese Language. Or Bilingual of English and Japanese". No comment.

The following reads: "English for Teachers (non-*native) of English"*, which the parenthesis make correct.

At this point I gave up, wondering what do the 184 000 hits I got prove, if they prove anything.


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## Oldy Nuts

avok said:


> OK.. But then why any native English speaker have not said it is incorrect yet?? There are many odd grammatical structures that may be grammatically correct.
> And if it is incorrect then where shall I write my language??



I'm not sure that they haven't..., but do not have the time to go back through all the messages to check.

And, as I have explained several times in this thread:

When you registered in these forums, you were asked for your "Native language:", to which you rightly answered "Turkish". However, in the header of messages posted here this information got changed to "Native of: Turkish", which is wrong and not your fault.


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## avok

OK... you are right. I give in   The thing is that I no longer find "Native of: Turkish" odd/wrong/incorrect !! I need to unlearn this "native of a language" thing.


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## ryba

Hello again, Nuts.



Oldy Nuts said:


> The following reads: "English for Teachers (non-*native) of English"*, which the parenthesis make correct.



Why?


I think we should make one thing clear. Whether saying *Native of a language* is correct or not is not a question of grammar. It is a question of usage, collocations*. When *Native of + language* stops sounding odd to a population of English speakers it is probable that it becomes correct/officially accepted. And yes, English speakers are not only natives of Commonwealth and the United States. Even if all the *233 000* times "*Native of English*" appears are mistakes (?) made by people who don't speak English as their first language, parts of messages posted in these forums and similar, I think they (we?) have enough power to gradually change English connotations for the noun *Native* just like Spanish speakers in the south of the U.S.A. have had enough power to make _My place_ (meaning _My house_) sound odd in those regions:



twen said:


> The differences could be regional. I'm in the Southwest, where Spanish was the first "official" language (no disrespect to the Native Americans). So, folks wouldn't use "place" (lugar) in regards to someone's abode; they would say "house" (casa).



* Wikipedia: "*collocation* is defined as a sequence of words or terms which co-occur more often than would be expected by chance".


Apart from that, I wouldn't classify *native of English* as a pure collocation.


ryba said:


> Anyway, *Native of English* is always a shorter version of *Native speaker of English* to me. An informal one but still valid. O.K., I am not an English native speaker I'm just saying what my impression is.



English is a very plastic language. If you can say *submarine* instead of *submarine boat* and it is correct, why can't you say *native* instead of *native speaker*?


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## Oldy Nuts

ryba said:


> Hello again, Nuts.
> 
> 
> 
> Why?
> 
> 
> I think we should make one thing clear. Whether saying *Native of a language* is correct or not is not a question of grammar. It is a question of usage, collocations*. When *Native of + language* stops sounding odd to a population of English speakers it is probable that it becomes correct/officially accepted. And yes, English speakers are not only natives of Commonwealth and the United States. Even if all the *233 000* times "*Native of English*" appears are mistakes (?) made by people who don't speak English as their first language, parts of messages posted in these forums and similar, I think they (we?) have enough power to gradually change English connotations for the noun *Native* just like Spanish speakers in the south of the U.S.A. have had enough power to make _My place_ (meaning _My house_) sound odd in those regions:
> 
> 
> 
> * Wikipedia: "*collocation* is defined as a sequence of words or terms which co-occur more often than would be expected by chance".
> 
> 
> Apart from that, I wouldn't classify *native of English* as a pure collocation.
> 
> 
> English is a very plastic language. If you can say *submarine* instead of *submarine boat* and it is correct, why can't you say *native* instead of *native speaker*?




I agree with you in that languages do evolve -indeed, they _have_ to. However, not being a native English speaker myself, I don't feel qualified to impose changes in the English language based on facts such as the large number of non native English speakers who make the same mistake in different parts of the world.

It would be interesting to read here what native speakers of English think about your ideas.


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## ireney

This is just a suggestion you understand , but maybe a discussion about the meaning of "native of" in English would be best suited for one of the forums where questions about the use of English are discussed?


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## ryba

Oldy Nuts said:


> However, not being a native English speaker myself, I don't feel qualified to impose changes in the English language.



I don't feel qualified either. I guess all those changes happen without anyone feeling qualified and the ones that actually feel qualified _no tienen ni voz ni voto_.

Pero fíjate que mi argumento principal es la economía del lenguaje:

submarine (adj.) boat (noun) --> submarine

native (adj.) speaker (noun) --> native

Economía, dijo mkellogg (aunque no sé si pensó en lo mismo que yo):



mkellogg said:


> Hola Crom,
> 
> En el Control Panel, la pregunta es "Native country and language:"
> http://forum.wordreference.com/profile.php?do=editprofile
> 
> Pero en los threads, tiene que poner algo mas corto, y he decidido que "Native of:" era lo mejor. Creo que "Native country and language:" es demasiado largo.
> 
> Mike



http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?p=4925250

PS: Sorry for switching to Spanish.


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## Oldy Nuts

ireney said:


> This is just a suggestion you understand , but maybe a discussion about the meaning of "native of" in English would be best suited in one of the forums where questions about the use of English are discussed?



Well, all I have suggested is that the label *Native of:* preceeding the "Spanish - Chile" I wrote in answer to a different question is changed to *Native language:* -which is what I was asked when I registered. One of my reasons is the lack of consistency between the registration form and profiles here. And the other is that, in my opinion, to say that someone is native of a language is incorrect.

I find it curious that, with the exception of cagey, no native speaker of English has said in this thread whether this is normal English usage or not. Perhaps if a few did they would help to put an end to a discussion that is taking us away form my suggestion. And that seems to be getting too one sided for my taste...


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## In Search Of

Hi,

although I'm a (bilingual) native I am fast becoming confused after reading all these threads. 

But I have always read it as "Native (speaker) of..." and so I still don't find it weird, really. 

You can also go to your User Control Panel and change this at any time, although I realize that that's not what you're asking for.

Cheers


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## ..lucy..

Sure Oldy Nuts, I agree!! It seems incorrect to me...
but I am not.... Native of  English!!  (????) so I can´t say  if this is the correct usage.

Cheers.


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## Cagey

Oldy Nuts said:


> I find it curious that, with the exception of cagey, no native speaker of English has said in this thread whether this is normal English usage or not. Perhaps if a few did they would help to put an end to a discussion that is taking us away from my suggestion. And that seems to be getting too one sided for my taste...



I think the following indicates that Pyan agrees that this is not normal usage. 



pyan said:


> After reading "Native of (any language)" thousands of times it no longer looks ridiculous to me, just odd.



It might be good idea to raise the grammatical issue in the English-only forum, as Ireney suggested.   This thread can then return to discussing your original suggestion.


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## Tagarela

Hi,

Well, another suggestion, if administrator and moderators like it, is to change the informations to something like -
*Mother language:
Country of origin:

*Anyway, it is only a suggestion.

As for me, *Native of Language/Nationality* does not sound very well. 

Good bye.:


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## Oldy Nuts

Cagey said:


> I think the following indicates that Pyan agrees that this is not normal usage.
> http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?p=4883225#post4883225



A bit subtly, but it does suggest she does.



> It might be good idea to raise the grammatical issue in the English-only forum, as Ireney suggested. This thread can then return to discussing your original suggestion.


I agree but, unfortunately, it seems that the fate of my suggestion depends heavily on wheter "Native of: Language" is correct or not. If it is a correct English expression, largely accepted as normal usage, then my suggestion is just sheer nonsense, and I have been wasting my time.


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## Oldy Nuts

I forgot to add that I am not in the least interested in that discussion. I think it is not up to non native English speakers to discuss amongst themselves if any given English expression is correct or not. However, I felt that some of the arguments that have been given here could not be left unanswered, and so I answered them as shortly as I could.


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## ryba

Hi, guys.





Tagarela said:


> Hi,
> 
> Well, another suggestion, if administrator and moderators like it, is to change the informations to something like -
> *Mother language:
> Country of origin:
> 
> *Anyway, it is only a suggestion.
> 
> As for me, *Native of Language/Nationality* does not sound very well.
> 
> Good bye.:


That's exactly what I was going to post. However it doesn't seem to be easy to introduce this change.

This would solve the following problem: so many people put languages they learn in the "Native language and the variety you speak, such as "English - Ireland" or "Mexican Spanish" or "India - Hindi & English", etc. Do not list the languages that you are learning." box athough it clearly says *"Do not list the languages that you are learning"*. Take a look at this thread.

Even if *Native of a language* is correct English, dividing it into

*Mother language: *(or *Mother tongue:*, which is shorter)*
Country of origin:*

as you suggested would help evitate these "ambiguities".

The only three disadvantages to this division would be:

 making the profile info more extense. A Brazilian living in Lisbon now has:

*Location: Lisbon, Portugal
*
*Native of: Brazilian Portuguese*

and would have:

*Location: Lisbon, Portugal
*
*Country of origin: Brasil

Mother language: Portuguese*


 making it difficult for someone who is not sure which country is actually his country of origin to decide which one to put in their profile.

 making 236,817 already registered users have to change their profile data which, at this point seems difficult...

So, this way, we've come back to the point of origin. Is *native of a language* correct or, at least, acceptable enough?

The admin said "Native country and language:" is too long.



Oldy Nuts said:


> (...) and I still think it should say "Native language:". Which is what one is asked when registering...



Then we would be missing out the country part and it is not enough to know someone lives in Lisbon and is a Portuguese speaker because knowing they are from Brazil is crucial for a Portuguese learner (Brazilian and European Portuguese are very different).

If we understand *Native language:* as the language and variety you speak and maintain the "Native language and the variety you speak, such as "English - Ireland" or "Mexican Spanish" or "India - Hindi & English", etc. Do not list the languages that you are learning." formule, then it seems all right to me...

...but I'm not sure if *Native language: **English - Ireland* is better than *Native of: **English - Ireland.**Native language: **Mexican Spanish* would sound perfect and *Native language: **India - Hindi & English* almost perfect.


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## Oldy Nuts

I may be repeating myself a bit too much, but it would seem it is necessary to repeat  again what I have been asking for since my opening post.

There is a discrepancy between what one is asked for when registering "Native language:" and what appears here in one's profile "Native of:", which produces what some consider a wrong expression (Native of: <a language>). My suggestion is to simply correct the label in one's profile so as make it coincident with what one was asked for.

If there are reasons of space that prevent changing this label to "Native language:", which I doubt,  shortening it to just "Language:" may not be too elegant, but would also remove the lack of coincidence.

Any such change would not require any participant to change the information provided when registering. Except, of course, for those who have noticed the discrepancy and have changed their information to better coincide with what one sees in here by writing things like "US / English"

By the way, the distinction between Portuguese as spoken in Basil and in Portugal, or between English as spoken in England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales (not to mention Australia, New Zealand, the USA, ...) is already taken into account. Following instructions, I gave this information as "Spanish - Chile", which is sufficiently clear.

Finally, if my suggestion leads to analyzing ways for providing more useful information in one's profile, or to present the existing information in a more useful way, so much the better. However, as this would probably involve much more careful study and much more work,  I think this should not unnecessarily delay introducing the simple change I have proposed.


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## Tagarela

Hello,

Ryba, yes, perhaps it is a matter of space. But I do not think it would be a problem for all the users - by the way, not ALL would change it. Some, do not come here very often and are not likely to return, others have ignored some notes such as the one warning not to write languages that you are learning, and after all, it is better to fix it now before WR gets even more users. 

And if the person does not know which is his/her country of origin, it does not depend on the label, if it is written 'Native of' or 'Country of origin', he/she still does not know. 

Perhaps other option, regarding Oldy Nuts suggestion, is "*Country [of origin] /[mother] tongue*". 

In a previous message, someone has noticed that in the Spanish version (I use it too) Native of is not translated. Now, I am thinking, if it was, it would be _muy extraño _if it was written "*Nativo de*" trying to make a short for "*Hablante nativo de*".

Good bye.:


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## cirrus

Las dudas acerca de native of me suenan porque no tiene sentido.  Suena mejor mother tongue y luego el idioma nativo.  

Lo que a a mi me cabrea es que cuando los foreros no ponen ningún indicativo ni de idioma materno / uso habitual ni donde viven.

I share the doubts people above have about "native of" x language. To me the phrase sounds plain wrong. A more useful tag would be "My mother tongue is ... ". If I see a thread by someone who has put neither a language nor their location my reaction tends to be this person is a twit, why on earth should I take what they say as having any value.


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## SilverPetal

pyan said:


> I think this has "hit the nail on the head".  After reading "Native of (any language)" thousands of times it no longer looks ridiculous to me, just odd.


When I first joined the WRF I found it to be odd, and so I changed mine to read "Native of Canada~English & Mandarin". However, I have seen it so many times now that I am beginning to think that it is indeed correct.


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## avok

SilverPetal said:


> When I first joined the WRF I found it to be odd, and so I changed mine to read "Native of Canada~English & Mandarin". However, I have seen it so many times now that I am beginning to think that it is indeed correct.


 
Welcome to the club !


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## Tagarela

Hello,

Is there someone here who thought that it, *Native of,* was quite natural and correct at the first sight?


Good bye.:


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## Etcetera

Tagarela said:


> Hello,
> 
> Is there someone here who thought that it, *Native of,* was quite natural and correct at the first sight?
> 
> 
> Good bye.:


Yes, there is. And it is I.

But I'm not a native speaker of English, and my English is far from perfect. So...


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## Oldy Nuts

Anna-Leia, if I wrote about you in another place, "She is a native of Russian", would you also find this is "quite natural and right"?

And you seem to confirm what I have observed here: none of the participants who are native speakers of English seems to think it is right so say "Native of (language)". Defenders of this expression here are all non native English speakers. Curious.


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## avok

Because "native speakers" dont want to be responsible for something that they are not sure of. Yet, we are more comfortable since we are allowed to make mistakes in a language which is not our mother tongue, old nuts.


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## Cagey

Actually, I think that we native speakers are sure that "Native of: language" is not normal English.   However, in the English Only forum, many of us have learned to avoid saying things like "that's wrong". 

As I said before, anyone who is interested in the responses of native speakers should post in the English Only forum.

Edit: What I mean is, "this is _wrong_".


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## Tagarela

Hi,



Cagey said:


> As I said before, anyone who is interested in the responses of native speakers should post in the English Only forum.



That is not true. Sometimes the person does not have enough English knowledge to follow an Only English discussion, and also, in many cases the person wants to compare expressions of his/her own language to English, so, the discussion cannot be only English. For sure, in some cases, it is the best option, but not always, even when your English is in an advanced level. 

Good bye.:


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## Cagey

Tagarela said:


> Hi,
> 
> That is not true. Sometimes the person does not have enough English knowledge to follow an Only English discussion, and also, in many cases the person wants to compare expressions of his/her own language to English, so, the discussion cannot be only English. For sure, in some cases, it is the best option, but not always, even when your English is in an advanced level.
> 
> Good bye.:



You are right.  An alternative would be to take the discussion to the forum in which grammatical issues are discussed in your own language.


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## Oldy Nuts

I posted my original message here because I was suggesting a small modification in the label of one field in these pages, on the understanding that this was the proper forum for suggestions. It would seem that my original message was too brief, and my suggestion was not fully understood, and so the matter has derived into a discussion on wheter the expression "Native of: (a language)" is correct. 

My latest and longest attempt to explain what I am asking for is in my message #48 above, and I will not repeat it again. I am not in the least interested in a grammatical discussion amongst non native English speakers of an expression that native English speakers seem to consider as "not normal English" because they are too polite to say it's wrong. And that is wrong at least in Spanish as well; "nativo de estadounidense" is nonsense.

As my suggestion is relatively independent of the correctness of the expression in question -although, if the expresssion _is_ wrong, it would be a very powerful argument for introducing the change I am asking for- I would like to suggest that we concentrate on the topic of my suggestion.

This is my last attempt to avoid this discussion going more off topic all the time.


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## avok

I dont think they are too polite to say it is wrong! 

They are just not sure about the expression like us (except you) and they do not want to seem ignorant about an issue concerning their mother tongue. 

Saying that such expression is wrong or not should not be impolite. Maybe the English only forum is a better place for this, I dont know.

And saying something is not normal or odd does not mean it is wrong though. But you need the expression to be wrong to able to ask the modifications you want.


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## Oldy Nuts

This is not to give more fuel to a discussion that doesn't really belong in here and isn't taking us anywhere but, may I ask you if saying in Turkish the equivalent of "Avok is a native of Turkish and Oldy is a native of Chilean" would be considered correct? Just curious.


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## radagasty

For what it's worth, I have never thought that _native of English_ is acceptable idiom, and not common as some sort of abbreviation of _native speaker of _English. Although, strictly speaking, my mother tongue is Cantonese, I grew up in Australia, and I regard myself as a native speaker of English for all intents and purposes.

A more careful examination of the 230,000 or so Google hits for _native of English_ -- simply reading the context displayed under each link will suffice -- reveals that they were not written by native speakers of English, quite obviously so for the most parts.


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## avok

Oldy Nuts said:


> This is not to give more fuel to a discussion that doesn't really belong in here and isn't taking us anywhere but, may I ask you if saying in Turkish the equivalent of "Avok is a native of Turkish and Oldy is a native of Chilean" would be considered correct? Just curious.


 
Hmmm.. we dont use the word "native" in this context but usually use things like "mother tongue", "mother country / home country" etc. For instance, if I say "Oldy is a Chilean native" in Turkish, it would mean that he is an American Indian from Chile  So, we translate "a native speaker of English" as "someone whose mother tongue is English", we do not use the equivalent of "native" in this context. It's getting more complicated??


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## Oldy Nuts

avok said:


> Hmmm.. we dont use the word "native" in this context but usually use things like "mother tongue", "mother country / home country" etc. For instance, if I say "Oldy is a Chilean native" in Turkish, it would mean that he is an American Indian from Chile  So, we translate "a native speaker of English" as "someone whose mother tongue is English", we do not use the equivalent of "native" in this context. It's getting more complicated??



So you have an equivalent of the adjective "native" but not an equivalent of the noun "native" meaning someone born in a given place? That would certainly explain why you find nothing wrong in the expression  "he is a native of Chilean".

I wonder if the same thing happens in many other languages. It does not happen in French, Italian or Spanish, all of which have a noun similar to the English "native" (natif, native and nativo, respectively), and I'm not sure about Portuguese although I think they also have "nativo" as a noun.

However, all this is taking us away from my original suggestion. There _is_ a discrepancy between what one is asked when subscribing ("Native language:") and what one reads in one's profile here ("Native of:"). To the best of my knowledge, these two expressions are not equivalent to each other, which can lead to confusions. So I asked fot this discrepancy to be corrected.

The long discussion in this thread shows that I am not wrong in assuming that interchanging both expressions can be confusing. I am therefore now asking that my suggestion is seriously considered by whomever is responsible for the layout of this site.


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## Tagarela

Hi,



Oldy Nuts said:


> I wonder if the same thing happens in many other languages. It does not happen in French, Italian or Spanish, all of which have a noun similar to the English "native" (natif, native and nativo, respectively), and I'm not sure about Portuguese although I think they also have "nativo" as a noun.
> 
> (...)
> 
> The long discussion in this thread shows that I am not wrong in assuming that interchanging both expressions can be confusing. I am therefore now asking that my suggestion is seriously considered by whomever is responsible for the layout of this site.



Yes, there is the word _nativo_ in Portuguese, and _nativo de português/espanhol/turco_ sound very weird! 

Perhaps you should contact the administrator, Mkellog (or something like this), otherwise this technicall issue will be kept as an endless native, non-native discussion. 

Good bye.:


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## ireney

*Moderator's note: The question/suggestion of the original post will very soon be addressed. Therefore, and since many of the posts do not address the topic directly, this thread is now locked.

Feel free to continue the discussion(s) in the appropriate forum(s) or via Personal Messages.*


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## mkellogg

I know the thread is closed, but I just wanted to thank you all for your opinions.  You have probably noticed that we changed it to "Native language".  I still don't think it is ideal, but it is probably better than before. 

Mike


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