# Nobody plays the piano as I do



## Jigen

1)Nobody plays the piano like I do.(Maybe this one is fairly informal,condidered incorrect in written English)
2)Nobody plays the piano as I do.
3)Nobody plays the piano like me.

Do these sentences sound correct to you?


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## MuttQuad

All of them reflect normal informal usage.


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## Myridon

2) "As" could mean "like," "while" or "because."


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## Jigen

Well here it means "In the way in which I play the piano".


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## Myridon

Jigen said:


> Well here it means "In the way in which I play the piano".


With no other context, we wouldn't know for sure.


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## JamesM

In other words, it is ambiguous.  "As" has multiple meanings in this context.

"..like I do" is the best choice, in my opinion.


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## Parla

In my view, #2 is the only one that's grammatically correct and, as others have said, it's ambiguous. If you want it to mean what you say in post #4, then you have to be specific: "Nobody plays the piano the way I do."


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## JamesM

I don't think "like I do" is incorrect, but it is not formal English.  What leads you to think it's grammatically incorrect, Parla?   I agree that it is the only option that is formal English, but "like I do" is standard informal English, as far as I know.  One of the definitions of _like_ is:  i_n the same way as; just as_.  So "Nobody plays the piano like I do" means exactly what you prefer: "Nobody plays the piano _in the same way as _I do."

"Nobody" is also informal, isn't it?  It should be "no one" in a formal register.


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## Jigen

According to my dictionary  "Nobody plays the piano like I do" may sound incorrect in a formal written context.
I don't know whether or not # is correct and if it  is appropriate in a formal context.


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## entangledbank

(3) is probably the normal way of saying it, and can be used in any style of writing. The other two are also correct, with (1) a little informal.


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## Parla

> I don't think "like I do" is incorrect, but it is not formal English.   What leads you to think it's grammatically incorrect, Parla?


The fact that it's followed by a verb (and that I'm a writer and editor, which I suppose makes me a bit more picky). If you want a published authority in the field, here's Bryan Garner (now considered the leading US usage maven) on the subject: "Its [_like_'s] function is adjectival, not adverbial. Hence one does not write, properly, 'The story ended _like_ it began,' but 'The story ended _as_ it began.' If we change the verbs to nouns, _like_ is correct: 'The story's ending was like its beginning.'" He adds this comment: "This relatively simple precept is generally observed in writing but has been increasingly flouted in American speech." [_Garner's Modern American Usage_, Oxford University Press 2003]


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## JamesM

Thanks, Parla.  If I were taking a test I would choose 'as' but in everyday writing or conversation I would use 'like'.  I'm old enough to remember the "Winston tastes good _like _a cigarette should" controversy, so I know this battle has been raging for decades. 

Unless you classify 'like' as a conjunction (and many sources do), then I can see that it is technically wrong.


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## Einstein

JamesM said:


> Thanks, Parla.  If I were taking a test I would choose 'as' but in everyday writing or conversation I would use 'like'.  I'm old enough to remember the "Winston tastes good _like _a cigarette should" controversy, so I know this battle has been raging for decades.
> 
> Unless you classify 'like' as a conjunction (and many sources do), then I can see that it is technically wrong.


30 years ago I would definitely have said that "like" is not a conjunction and that we should say either "like me" or "as I do" (BrE). I don't think we can insist on this nowadays. I used to consider "like I do" as an Americanism, but now I think it's heard quite regularly on the BBC too. But I would still advise against it in formal writing.

I've had more difficulty in accepting "like" instead of "as if" or "as though": "He looked like he'd seen a ghost", but this too is a losing battle.


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## Wordsmyth

As James says, the battle has been raging for decades. A friend of mine is an English teacher who firmly maintains that "like" is not a conjunction. He told me he'd once asked his class to say which of these sentences was the only correct one:

- He does it like I do.
- He does it like what I do.
- That's just like what I do.

They nearly all chose the first one, whereas of course the correct answer (for him) was the third one.

Ws


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## Parla

> They nearly all chose the first one, whereas of course the correct answer (for him) was the third one.


As [not "like"] it is for me.  
How about_ you_, Ws?


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## Wordsmyth

Parla said:


> As [not "like"] it is for me.
> How about_ you_, Ws?


 Yes, the same. In my own writing, and generally in speaking, I'm with you and Garner on this — I suppose because I was brought up with the principle that "like" isn't a conjunction, and it's stuck, so it doesn't come naturally to use it that way. 

On the other hand, it's now such an established usage that it's hard to label it as categorically incorrect, and I find it less glaring than many another colloquial usage. Both the WR dictionaries (RH and Collins) show "like" as a conjunction meaning "in the same way as", without any restriction. Oxford Dictionaries show it as 'informal' (though that's also the status they give to 'adverbial' uses such as "I was like so amazed" and "She comes into the room and she's like 'Where is everybody?'").

Ws


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## Einstein

Wordsmyth said:


> "I was like so amazed" and "She comes into the room and she's like 'Where is everybody?'".


In the first example I see "like" as a conversation filler, grammatically unconnected with the rest of the sentence; it adds nothing to "I was so amazed". The second example is just part of a thought stream and can't be analysed as a sentence. I heard some American teenagers talking and one word in three was "like". British teenagers would probably have said "I mean" more than "like".

I mean, like, oh my God, it's like, awesome!


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## Wordsmyth

Yes, that's pretty much how I see it. That's why I put 'adverbial' in quotes. Oxforddictionaries.com shows those examples as adverbial, but I suspect that may be just a case of fitting them into some existing grammatical category. 

I really mentioned those only to show that their definition of 'informal' appears to be very wide: I suspect that the people who accept "like" as a conjunction are far more numerous than those who accept those other uses.

Ws


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## wandle

Jigen said:


> 1)Nobody plays the piano like I do.
> 2)Nobody plays the piano as I do.
> 3)Nobody plays the piano like me.


In my view, (2) is the only well-formed sentence and is, for practical purposes, unambiguous, meaning 'in the way that I do'.


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## Forero

I agree with those who say _as_ is ambiguous in this context. If "in the same way that" is meant, I prefer "the way"; for "in a similar way to that in which", I prefer "like". "Like" is informal, and some object to it, but the meaning is perfectly clear.

There was of course a time when people had to say things like "He left before that I did" since "before" is a preposition, but why make things more complicated than they need to be? It would make more sense to object to "like" in the newer sense of "enjoy" or "appreciate" than to object to its time honored use as a subordinating conjunction.


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## Loob

Am I the only one here who can't imagine *ever* saying _Nobody plays the piano as I do_?  

Of the options given, for me it would have to be (1) or (3). I could also happily say _Nobody plays the piano the way I do_.


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## boozer

Loob said:


> Am I the only one here who can't imagine *ever* saying _Nobody plays the piano as I do_? .


I guarantee I can never say it simply because I do not play the piano.  Then, again, one could easily express not playing the piano with this phrase...
Well, there are other reasons as well, but I cannot define them. It is something that eludes me. 
I would surely say 'like' or 'the way'.


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## Wordsmyth

Loob said:


> Am I the only one here who can't imagine *ever* saying _Nobody plays the piano as I do_?
> 
> Of the options given, for me it would have to be (1) or (3). I could also happily say _Nobody plays the piano the way I do_.


I would usually say (3) or "the way I do". (1) wouldn't come naturally to me because I was brought up with the principle that "like" isn't a conjunction, and it's stuck. But I've no problem with others using it.

I think I might *write *(2), but it's unlikely that I'd *say* it.

However, there are times when I do naturally say "as" with the sense of "in the way that": 
- "How do you want your eggs?" – "I'll take them as they come" 
- "As I see it, it's not a problem", etc.

Could you imagine (ever) saying those, Loob?

Ws


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## Loob

Yes, I could, Ws.

I could also imagine saying the proverbial _Do as I say, not as I do_.

I'll ponder further about why I feel such a distinct antipathy towards _Nobody plays the piano as I do_.  I know it's not the "nobody" that's the problem: I couldn't say _He plays the piano as I do _either....


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## owlman5

> I'll ponder further about why I feel such a distinct antipathy towards _Nobody plays the piano as I do_.


 I don't like it either, Loob.  I'd choose the conjunction "like" that I hear all the time in the speech of people who don't care what grammarians might think of it.


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## Loob

Thanks, owlman - I feel less lonely now, given boozer's answer and your answer!


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## Forero

Loob said:


> Yes, I could, Ws.
> 
> I could also imagine saying the proverbial _Do as I say, not as I do_.
> 
> I'll ponder further about why I feel such a distinct antipathy towards _Nobody plays the piano as I do_.  I know it's not the "nobody" that's the problem: I couldn't say _He plays the piano as I do _either....


I don't like it because it does not have a clear meaning.

And "He plays the piano as I do" might also mean "He plays the piano, as do I."


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## Loob

Good point, Forero!

I'm wondering why everyone else seems to prefer the "as" version.

I think people's natural instincts are sometimes overridden by prescriptivist teachers....


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## Wordsmyth

owlman5 said:


> I don't like it either, Loob. I'd choose the conjunction "like" that I hear all the time in the speech of people who don't care what grammarians might think of it.


I'm almost envious of you 'free spirits'. I actually don't give a toss what grammarians might think. It's just that not using 'like' as a conjunction was so ingrained in me from a young age that using it doesn't come naturally. Still, if I try very hard, I might end up doing it like you do it  (or, as I'd be more comfortable saying, "doing it like you").


Loob said:


> _ [...]_ I'm wondering why everyone else seems to prefer the "as" version.


Well, not _everyone_ else: see my #23.

Ws


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## MuttQuad

Loob said:


> Am I the only one here who can't imagine *ever* saying _Nobody plays the piano as I do_?
> 
> Of the options given, for me it would have to be (1) or (3). I could also happily say _Nobody plays the piano the way I do_.



Nobody plays shortstop as Phil Rizzuto did.


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## Forero

MuttQuad said:


> Nobody plays shortstop as Phil Rizzuto did.


This gives me all the same headaches as the original sentence.


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## Jigen

I've done some researches and I have found the following examples:
_
I invested the money __as you suggested__(macmillan dictionary)_
_Leave everything just __as you found it!(__macmillan dictionary)
We'd better leave things__ as they are __until the police arrive.(Longman dictionary)
It did not turn out __like I intended__.__(OALD)[I think that "as"here would make the whole clause sound more formal.]

I must agree with wandle whe he said that #2 in corrrect,nonetheless I can't say that #1 #3 are wrong,to me it all comes down to the situation in which we are using these clauses(formal or informal).#2 sounds more formal to my non-native ears._


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## Loob

I don't have any difficulty with "as" in any of the sentences in your post 32, Jigen - I wouldn't even have a problem with it in the OALD sentence.

Having pondered, I think that what makes your original sentence (2) different and problematical for me is that it contains a placeholder "do" - in other words,
_Nobody plays the piano as I do _=_ Nobody plays the piano as I play the piano_.

*Why* that fact is important for me, I don't know.  But I do know that it's important.


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## Wordsmyth

But Loob, doesn't the same apply to sentence (1), which you said was OK for you?

Ws


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## Loob

Wordsmyth said:


> But Loob, doesn't the same apply to sentence (1), which you said was OK for you?
> 
> Ws


I think what I'm saying is that, where there's a placeholder "do", I need to use the conjunction "like": I feel awkward trying to use the conjunction "as".


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## Wordsmyth

Ah, OK, I see ... I think.

Ws


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## owlman5

I frequently talk with my musical buddies about the playing styles of different musicians.  Nobody ever uses "as" when they compare the way people play.  Everybody always uses "like" in these comparisons.  I've been having similar conversations for decades now.  "Like" has always been the conjunction of choice in these conversations. It would sound a little weird if you tried to force "as" into the remark.


Jeff Beck doesn't play anything like John McLaughlin does. 
Jeff Beck doesn't play as John McLaughlin does.


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## Einstein

Jim plays the piano as I do = Both Jim and I play the piano.

Obviously this can't be the meaning when we have "nobody" in the place of "Jim". I don't think _*Nobody plays as I do*_ is wrong, but in our enthusiasim to reject "like" we embraced "as" without considering other possibilities, so I agree with some of the alternatives suggested, e.g. the way I do.

In spite of being an "as" man, I find owlman's *Jeff Beck doesn't play anything like John McLaughlin* _*does*_ perfectly acceptable, maybe because "anything like" is a set phrase. You couldn't say "anything as".


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## wandle

Einstein said:


> Jim plays the piano as I do = Both Jim and I play the piano.


For this meaning, a comma is needed: 'Jim plays the piano, as I do'. Without the comma, 'as' means 'in the way that'.


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## wandle

According to English Grammar - Expressing similarity,  the use of 'like' as a conjunction is 'informal' only.
Examples of the conjunction 'as' include: _Nobody loves her as I do. He fought as a tiger does.
_
As I understand that, it means that for correct written English the role of conjunction in a clause of comparison is filled by 'as'.
I share that position, from which it follows that the use of 'like' in that role is an error, even though it often occurs in colloquial English.

The idea that in some cases 'as' is actually incorrect in the role of conjunction is completely new to me. It is, unfortunately, not a great surprise to find the colloquialism 'like' regarded as a valid alternative by some commentators, but I never thought I would see the day when the traditionally required 'as' was denied its classic role and the colloquialism treated as mandatory instead.

Here are some more examples of 'as' followed by 'do' as a 'placeholder'.

Inheritance: The Story of Knole and the Sackvilles by Robert Sackville-West
_nobody really feels Knole as I do
_
The Syndicate trans. Mike Poulton
_nobody knows him as I do
_
Our Roll of Honour - MS Ireland
_Nobody can see things as I do._


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## Loob

I'm sorry to have shocked you, wandle. Perhaps we'll agree on the next thread!


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## wandle

Loob said:


> I'm sorry to have shocked you, wandle. Perhaps we'll agree on the next thread!


Why wait?


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## Forero

wandle said:


> According to English Grammar - Expressing similarity,  the use of 'like' as a conjunction is 'informal' only.
> Examples of the conjunction 'as' include: _Nobody loves her as I do. He fought as a tiger does.
> _
> As I understand that, it means that for correct written English the role of conjunction in a clause of comparison is filled by 'as'.
> I share that position, from which it follows that the use of 'like' in that role is an error, even though it often occurs in colloquial English.
> 
> The idea that in some cases 'as' is actually incorrect in the role of conjunction is completely new to me. It is, unfortunately, not a great surprise to find the colloquialism 'like' regarded as a valid alternative by some commentators, but I never thought I would see the day when the traditionally required 'as' was denied its classic role and the colloquialism treated as mandatory instead.
> 
> Here are some more examples of 'as' followed by 'do' as a 'placeholder'.
> 
> Inheritance: The Story of Knole and the Sackvilles by Robert Sackville-West
> _nobody really feels Knole as I do
> _
> The Syndicate trans. Mike Poulton
> _nobody knows him as I do
> _
> Our Roll of Honour - MS Ireland
> _Nobody can see things as I do._


These examples sound fine to me, and the following don't:

_Nobody plays piano as I play piano._
_Nobody plays shortstop as Phil Rizzuto played shortstop._

And although "Jeff Beck doesn't play anything as John McLaughlin does" seems like a good sentence, it does not mean the same as "Jeff Beck doesn't play anything like John McLaughlin does." Substituting "at all" or "in the least" for "anything" does not fix the problem.


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## wandle

Forero said:


> These examples sound fine to me, and the following don't:
> 
> _Nobody plays piano as I play piano._
> _Nobody plays shortstop as Phil Rizzuto played shortstop._


What ground could there be to object to them? 'As', being a conjunction, is correctly used in its normal sense of 'in the way that'.


> And although "Jeff Beck doesn't play anything as John McLaughlin does" seems like a good sentence, it does not mean the same as "Jeff Beck doesn't play anything like John McLaughlin does."


The latter sentence, using the colloquialism 'like' as a conjunction, is ambiguous.

The former, correctly using 'as', is unambiguous. It means  'Jeff Beck doesn't play anything in the way that John McLaughlin does'.
Being unambiguous (as well as correct) makes it, I should say, a better sentence, not a worse one.


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## JamesM

The argument can be made on the other side, wandle.

"No one cares for her anymore as I do" is also ambiguous.  It can mean "No one cares for her anymore because I do" or "No one cares for her anymore in the way that I do".  Unambiguous is not a valid argument for "as", in my opinion.


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## roxcyn

Jigen said:


> 1)Nobody plays the piano like I do.(Maybe this one is fairly informal,condidered incorrect in written English)
> 2)Nobody plays the piano as I do.
> 3)Nobody plays the piano like me.
> 
> Do these sentences sound correct to you?



While they are grammatically, I prefer the first and third sentences.


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## wandle

JamesM said:


> "No one cares for her anymore as I do" is also ambiguous.


There I am afraid I cannot agree. I see only one meaning. 





> It can mean "No one cares for her anymore because I do" or "No one cares for her anymore in the way that I do".


 That ambiguity is ruled out when the sentence is written without a comma. That is the virtue of the conjunction 'as' expressing similarity. The absence of comma signals the meaning of similarity.

On the other hand, if a comma is placed before 'as' in that example, then ambiguity may arise: though even then, I must say, I find the meaning 'since' rather a strain.


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## Einstein

In post #38 I said,


Einstein said:


> In spite of being an "as" man, I find owlman's *Jeff Beck doesn't play anything like John McLaughlin* _*does*_ perfectly acceptable, maybe because "anything like" is a set phrase. You couldn't say "anything as".


Thinking about it I realise why it sounds right and why "as" would sound wrong: it's because it's an abbreviation of "Jeff Beck doesn't play anything like as well as John Mclaughlin (does)".


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## wandle

Well, now we have three different meanings for '_Jeff Beck doesn't play anything like John McLaughlin_ _does_':

(a) '_Jeff Beck doesn't play anything in the way that John McLaughlin_ _does_';
(b) '_Jeff Beck's playing is totally different from John McLaughlin_'s':
(c) '_Jeff Beck doesn't play nearly as well as John McLaughlin_'.

This does show the variability of colloquial language, but I would still recomend expressing the three ideas in different ways, each unambiguous:

(1) for meaning (a) '_Jeff Beck doesn't play anything as John McLaughlin_ _does_':
(2) for meaning (b) '_Jeff Beck's playing is nothing like John McLaughlin's';_ 
(3) for meaning (c) the same: '_Jeff Beck doesn't play nearly as well as John McLaughlin_'.


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## Jigen

Why don't you play  with the other childred as/like you used to?
I went to the mall,as/like I always do on Mondays.

*Can I use both as and like in these sentences?*


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## MuttQuad

I think you can, but "as" is a bit more elegant.


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## Jigen

In the exapmple given by wandle #40 can I reformulate the second sentence as
"He fought like a tiger"?
I think that this would be possible since the"like" is followed by a noun(tiger).


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## owlman5

Hi, Jigen.

I think this is one of those topics that people are going to disagree about.  It's safe to guess that some people will accept "like a tiger does" in that sentence.  Others will reject it and insist on "as".  I hear "like" used a conjunction frequently in AE.  I hear it so frequently that objections to its use seem futile to me.


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## velisarius

wandle said:


> According to English Grammar - Expressing similarity,  the use of 'like' as a conjunction is 'informal' only.
> Examples of the conjunction 'as' include: _Nobody loves her as I do. He fought as a tiger does.
> _
> As I understand that, it means that for correct written English the role of conjunction in a clause of comparison is filled by 'as'.
> I share that position, from which it follows that the use of 'like' in that role is an error, even though it often occurs in colloquial English.
> 
> The idea that in some cases 'as' is actually incorrect in the role of conjunction is completely new to me. It is, unfortunately, not a great surprise to find the colloquialism 'like' regarded as a valid alternative by some commentators, but I never thought I would see the day when the traditionally required 'as' was denied its classic role and the colloquialism treated as mandatory instead.
> 
> Here are some more examples of 'as' followed by 'do' as a 'placeholder'.
> 
> Inheritance: The Story of Knole and the Sackvilles by Robert Sackville-West
> _nobody really feels Knole as I do
> _
> The Syndicate trans. Mike Poulton
> _nobody knows him as I do
> _
> Our Roll of Honour - MS Ireland
> _Nobody can see things as I do._





wandle said:


> According to English Grammar - Expressing similarity,  the use of 'like' as a conjunction is 'informal' only.
> Examples of the conjunction 'as' include: _Nobody loves her as I do. He fought as a tiger does.
> _
> As I understand that, it means that for correct written English the role of conjunction in a clause of comparison is filled by 'as'.
> I share that position, from which it follows that the use of 'like' in that role is an error, even though it often occurs in colloquial English.
> 
> The idea that in some cases 'as' is actually incorrect in the role of conjunction is completely new to me. It is, unfortunately, not a great surprise to find the colloquialism 'like' regarded as a valid alternative by some commentators, but I never thought I would see the day when the traditionally required 'as' was denied its classic role and the colloquialism treated as mandatory instead.
> 
> Here are some more examples of 'as' followed by 'do' as a 'placeholder'.
> 
> Inheritance: The Story of Knole and the Sackvilles by Robert Sackville-West
> _nobody really feels Knole as I do
> _
> The Syndicate trans. Mike Poulton
> _nobody knows him as I do
> _
> Our Roll of Honour - MS Ireland
> _Nobody can see things as I do._



Wandle's sentence was "He fought as a tiger does"

Jigen's question is about "He fought like a tiger", and I don't think there's any problem with that. It's standard. We wouldn't say "He fought as a tiger."


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## Einstein

velisarius said:


> Wandle's sentence was "He fought as a tiger does"
> 
> Jigen's question is about "He fought like a tiger", and I don't think there's any problem with that. It's standard. We wouldn't say "He fought as a tiger."


Yes, "He fought as a tiger" would have the improbable meaning that he fought in the role of a tiger (dressed up as one). Obama addresses the nation as the president; an imitator speaks like the president.
In these examples, neither "as" nor "like" are conjunctions.


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