# Persian: عکس، تصویر، نقاشی



## ali likes the stars

Hello guys, happy new year!

I'd like to talk about these three terms: عکس, تصویر, نقاشی

As far as I know, عکس derrives from انعکاس and describes an image, that is the mirroring of something.

A photography.
Any image that is mirrored on a watery, ceramic, glassy, metallic surface.
A phatamorgana (which is also just a mirrored image.)
تصویر then is any other image.

A movie poster.
A picture in a book or on a piece of clothing that.
A (moving or steady) picture on a screen.
And finally, نقاشی is any image that has been drawn or painted.

Is this correct?


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## PersoLatin

A photography. *عکس* 
Any image that is mirrored on a watery, ceramic, glassy, metallic surface. *انعکاس* 
A phatamorgana (which is also just a mirrored image.) *what is this please, a mirage?*
*تصویر *- any picture, includes photographs

A movie poster. *Not sure*
A picture in a book or on a piece of clothing that. *Yes*
A (moving or steady) picture on a screen. *Yes*

*نقاشی - *any type of drawing, نقاشی کردن can mean doing/making drawings as well painting objects as in covering them with a layer of paint, e.g. walls/doors while decorating.


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## ali likes the stars

PersoLatin said:


> A phatamorgana (which is also just a mirrored image.) *what is this please, a mirage?*



Well, I may not have used the correct spelling. But yes, a _mirage_ is also known by its Italian name _fata morgana_. (I actually didn't know the term _mirage_. In Germany, Fata Morgana is the most common way to say it.)



PersoLatin said:


> Any image that is mirrored on a watery, ceramic, glassy, metallic surface. *انعکاس*



But wouldn't you rather say عکس من افتاده توی آب and not انعکاس من در آب?


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## PersoLatin

ali likes the stars said:


> Well, I may not have used the correct spelling. But yes, a _mirage_ is also known by its Italian name _fata morgana_. (I actually
> didn't know the term _mirage_. In Germany, Fata Morgana is the most common way to say it.)


In that case, a mirage in Persian is سراب, and عکس is not the correct use for it at all.



ali likes the stars said:


> But wouldn't you rather say عکس من افتاده توی آب and not انعکاس من در آب?


What you see on the surface of water or in a mirror is your reflection and the word for it is انعکاس or بازتاب. In fact تصویر is better than عکس, in this case.


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## Alfaaz

PersoLatin said:
			
		

> What you see on the surface of water or in a mirror is your reflection and the word for it is انعکاس or بازتاب. In fact تصویر is better than عکس, in this case.


 This is interesting. Could you please shed light on why _taswiir _is better than _3aks _in your opinion...? It would seem that عکس or پرتو - _partau _would be better options for _a reflection seen on the surface of the water, etc._ (Of course, تصویر can also be used.) Is it because عکس has been reserved for _photograph _as you have indicated above (post #2)?

A few other words that might be relevant to the subject of the thread: نقش، نگار، شبیہ، خاکہ، وغیرہ


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## PersoLatin

Alfaaz said:


> Is it because عکس has been reserved for _photograph _as you have indicated above (post #2)?


I can't say it is reserved but عکس in formal Persian almost always refers material that's been produced by photographic equipment, or X-ray machines etc. In a sentence like 'I saw my own reflection on water', using تصویر/انعکاس is more acceptable that عکس.


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## Alfaaz

Thanks for answering!


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## fishcurl

Alfaaz said:


> A few other words that might be relevant to the subject of the thread: نقش، نگار، شبیہ، خاکہ، وغیرہ



Hi, Alfaaz. I'm not sure about the relevance of the last word on your list: خاکہ 'khaakeh' (?); is that another word for some sort of an image, perhaps a drawing made in charcoal? What I am able to tell you about it is in Iranian Persian the word denotes a dusty texture, any solid in powdered form, e.g. خاکه قند (finely ground beet sugar).

As for شبیه, I feel this word is used more often for an individual who resembles (شبیه است) or represents another (شبیه یا بدل دیگری است). But it is just possible that the word is also used to refer to a picture of a person, though I can't think of a ready example of such usage.

نقش is similar to design, pattern, engraving, while نگار comes from the verb نگاشتن (to inscribe, to make a pattern) and could mean ornamental drawings or additions.

You also mention پرتو, which as far as I know means beam of light, ray.


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## ali likes the stars

PersoLatin said:


> What you see on the surface of water or in a mirror is your reflection and the word for it is انعکاس or بازتاب. In fact تصویر is better than عکس, in this case.



Alright, if you'd tell your kid "Look, you can see your reflection in the mirror." How would you say that?

ببین, انعکاس تو توی آینه افتاده/پیدا است
منظره تو در آینه منعکس می‌شه
منظره تو در آینه بازتاب می‌شه


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## Alfaaz

fishcurl said:
			
		

> Hi, Alfaaz. I'm not sure about the relevance of the last word on your list: خاکہ 'khaakeh' (?); is that another word for some sort of an image, perhaps a drawing made in charcoal? What I am able to tell you about it is in Iranian Persian the word denotes a dusty texture, any solid in powdered form, e.g. خاکه قند (finely ground beet sugar).
> 
> As for شبیه, I feel this word is used more often for an individual who resembles (شبیه است) or represents another (شبیه یا بدل دیگری است). But it is just possible that the word is also used to refer to a picture of a person, though I can't think of a ready example of such usage.
> 
> نقش is similar to design, pattern, engraving, while نگار comes from the verb نگاشتن (to inscribe, to make a pattern) and could mean ornamental drawings or additions.
> 
> You also mention پرتو, which as far as I know means beam of light, ray.


 Thanks for all of the details! Here are a few explanations:

Please excuse the inclusion of پرتو. I realized after posting and checking both Steingass and Hayyim that the usage for _reflection _might be an extended meaning in Urdu not used in Persian.
Unlike پرتو, the word خاکہ is actually listed in Hayyim with the (secondary) meaning of _sketch _(as you have also guessed/indicated). However, it could be that this usage is not common in modern Persian either...?



> 2) خاکه Noun Noun _R_ A sketch. [_See_ گرده].



Your description is indeed correct for شبیه and (as you have stated) it can also be used for _portrait_: 



> شبیه _(shabeeh)_ ... _A_ ... 2. A (religious) representation or drama. _See_ تعزیه || A figure; a portrait. Ex. شبیه مرا کشید He painted a portrait of mine. _Syn_. صورت - شکل & تصویر ...



_naqsh _was included since نقاشی was mentioned above and because it is often combined with نگار:



> نقش (_naghsh_) Noun _A_ A painting; a picture; a drawing. A design; a plan. An engraving. An image. A print or impression. An embroidery. A trace. Variegated work. _Gam_. A lucky hand; a lucky throw, etc. _Fig_. Luck. [Pl. = نقوش _noghoosh_]. _Compare_ نقاشی & نقشه - تصویر
> 
> ... نقش و نگار Designs and ornaments; paintings and decorations. ...



نگار was mentioned after noticing that many articles on Farsi (and Urdu) versions of Wikipedia pages currently use نگار خانہ for _picture/image gallery_. Examples: Here - Farsi (and here - Urdu).



> نگار (1) Noun Noun 1. A picture, painting, portrait; an image.


 ali likes the stars: I hope I haven't caused your thread to go off-topic. Please excuse me if such is the case!


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## ali likes the stars

Alfaaz said:


> ali likes the stars: I hope I haven't caused your thread to go off-topic. Please excuse me if such is the case!



No, please. I hoped I wasn't boring everyone with trivial questions. I'm happy to have sparked such an intersting discussion.


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## PersoLatin

ali likes the stars said:


> Alright, if you'd tell your kid "Look, you can see your reflection in the mirror." How would you say that?
> 
> ببین, انعکاس تو توی آینه افتاده/پیدا است
> منظره تو در آینه منعکس می‌شه
> منظره تو در آینه بازتاب می‌شه


It is helpful to clarify the context of use, but I should have guessed. Of course with a child you can use عکس in those situations, they have limited vocabulary and it is very likely they are already familiar with photos/عکس.

In one of the earlier posts I was going to clarify that عکس in any context, is appropriate if children use it. An adult rarely says عکس خودمو توی روی آب دیدم, but some do ....


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## ali likes the stars

PersoLatin said:


> It is helpful to clarify the context of use, but I should have guessed. Of course with a child you can use عکس in those situations, they have limited vocabulary and it is very likely they are already familiar with photos/عکس.



I actually didn't just ask for my kid. Only when standing in front of the mirror with her the other day did I realise that I have never said this in Farsi before and am unsure of how to say it.
As mentioned in earlier posts I do speak fluently but most of all lack "The Persian Way Of Saying It". Whenever I'm unsure how to say something in Farsi I say it like I would do in German.


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## fishcurl

Alfaaz said:


> the word خاکہ is actually listed in Hayyim with the (secondary) meaning of _sketch _(as you have also guessed/indicated). However, it could be that this usage is not common in modern Persian either...?



Sorry about the lateness of this! I have not heard it applied in the sense mentioned in Hayyim, though it is possible professional artists still use it to refer to charcoal sketches. It is a shame that we don't all use it, because it sounds good.


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## PersoLatin

Alfaaz said:


> the word خاکہ is actually listed in Hayyim with the (secondary) meaning of _sketch _(as you have also guessed/indicated)


This is from Dehkhoda:
خاکه . [ ک َ / ک ِ ] (اِ) در عرف عامیانه به *خاک زغال* اطلاق میشود. || بچه ٔ شِپِش . || این کلمه با کلماتی چون «اره » و «قند» و «زغال » و «مروارید» و «شپش » و «تنباکو» و «پِهِن » و «توتون » می آید که هرکدام از این ترکیبات علیحده ذکر خواهد شد. With the general meaning of 'dusting/duct of', and its basically the residue powder left naturally or when handling certain materials e.g. sugar loaf, wood, gold and of course charcoal.

I remember my grandmother using the term خاکه, specifically to refer to charcoal dust which she used to use when setting up her korsi/کرسی, in winter times.

As it has been mentioned the sense of drawing must be secondary, from 'charcoal drawing' (but not in Persian), most probably from نقاشی با زغال or  نقاشی با خاکه زغال


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