# Etymology: Hazrat



## mansio

What is the etymology of hazrat which is a honorific title given to religious leaders in the Persian culture area (from Turkey to India) ? The word sounds Arabic.

Thanks.


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## cherine

No Mansio, sorry 
This word is most probably Turkish (maybe Persian, but I think it's Turkish). We use it in Arabic like many other borrowed words, but it's not originally an Arabic word.

In Egypt we don't use it with religious persons, but we us a variation of it حضرتك "Hadritak" (male), "Hadritek" (female) like the French "vous", or the Spanish "usted". For example, I don't call my boss أنت but حضرتك .


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## mansio

Cherine

I searched in the Sakhr dictionary and found a HaDaraحضر  meaning to arrive. So HaDra(t) would be the arrival, visiting, the presence of somebody, and by extention the holy appearing of somebody, His Holiness.
That word looks really Arabic to me although it is mostly used by the Chiites, except of course for the politeness word you described to me.
(My PC is slowly allowing me to use the Arabic alphabet)


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## cherine

Yes, حضر means arrive, but arrival is حضور not حضرة this word -as far as I know- is not Arabic.

Let's hope Elroy would move this thread to other language forum, so we can benefit from the contributions/opinions of Turkish and/or Persian speakers.


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## ronanpoirier

"A Házra" in hungarian would mean "onto the house" and -t is the accusative suffix... i don't think it has any connection, actually, i'm 99% sure one thing has nothing to do with the other... but just to point it as a matter of curiosity.


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## mansio

We are discussing whether the word hazrat is Arabic or not, and we are exiled in the "Other Languages" section.

So the word is built on the Arabic root حضر , is used in an Arabic country as Egypt, ends with the Arabic suffix -at and is not Arabic!


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## cherine

mansio said:
			
		

> We are discussing whether the word hazrat is Arabic or not, and we are exiled in the "Other Languages" section.
> 
> So the word is built on the Arabic root حضر , is used in an Arabic country as Egypt, ends with the Arabic suffix -at and is not Arabic!


 
But why do you insist that this word comes from the Arabic root of حضر ?! They are totally different words.
I don't know how much Arabic you've learned so far, but I hope you can believe me when I tell you that the Arabic language has numerous words from other languages : Persian, Turkish.... and many others.

Let's take my own name for example : cherine is a name for so many girls (and sometimes boys) in Egypt, but that doesn't mean it's Arabic; in fact it's a Persian name. And the same goes for many other names.

I'll try to find other examples and post them, maybe you'll be convinced.

As for the subject of our thread, the word hazret (not hazrat) is a Turkish (and also Persian, but I don't know which language took it from the other) name, and here's what I found about it -until now.

(Note: In the Persian link, look for the word حضرت )


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## cherine

Ok, I still believe that the word hazret in the way used for religious persons is not from an Arabic origin.
But to be honest, I thought I'd put what I just found in an Arabic monoligual dictionary لسان العرب about this word :


> بِحَضْرَةِ فلان وبمَحَضْرٍ منه أَي بِمَشْهَدٍ منه، [...] الجوهري: حَضْرَةُ الرجل قُرْبهُ وفِناؤّ. وفي حديث عمرو ابن سَلِمَة الجَرْمِيِّ: كنا بِحَضْرَةِ ماءٍ أَي عنده؛ ​


To say it in short : the word حضرة in Arabic means *presence*. Do you think This is the meaning you're looking for ?


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## elroy

To be honest, I never had a reason to suspect a foreign origin of the word.  Yes, the more usual Arabic word for "presence" is حضور but I thought حضرة was just a variation.  It makes a lot of sense to me for "your presence" to be a formal way to address a person.  That's why my spontaneous response would have been that Turkish and/or Persian borrowed this word from Arabic, and not the other way around.

This thread has been "exiled" to the Other Languages forum because we are as yet uncertain as to the etymology of the word.


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## mansio

I have studied a little bit of Persian decades ago (I learned the Arabic script through Persian) and I know a little bit of Arabic. 
Right from the start that word "hazrat" sounded so Arabic to me that I was astonished it could be considered as a Persian or even Turkish word.


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## MarcB

Hi all,

Urdu= Dignity, Lord, Title Of Respect
Farsi =excellency;highness,majesty/etc.
Link for Hindi-Urdu  hazrat, gives Arabic as derivation
* http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/search3advanced?dbname=platts&query=hazrat&matchtype=exact&display=utf8*
** 
*For Sufis it is used as a saint. I will leave it to others to determine the etymology.*


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## mansio

MarcB

I hope you mean it derives from Arabic.


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## cherine

Thanks MarcB for the link 

Ok, here's my last (hopefully last) take on this question :
I think the word did indeed come from Arabic (presence), than it took a different meaning with Turkish-Farsi-Urdu... due to the Shiite use of the word.

Hope this is a more logical explanation.


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## mansio

Cherine 

I think it is the right explanation.


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## Alijsh

elroy said:


> To be honest, I never had a reason to suspect a foreign origin of the word. Yes, the more usual Arabic word for "presence" is حضور but I thought حضرة was just a variation. It makes a lot of sense to me for "your presence" to be a formal way to address a person.


Yes, I have no doubt that hazrat has Arabic origin. But I'm not sure about its extended meaning that's used in Persian. Do you use it to say as in Persian: Hazrat-e Mohammad (حضرت محمد (ص?

Do you have these:

اعلی حضرت
علیا حضرت


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## Chazzwozzer

In Turkish, the word _hazret _may only be used in a religious context. If a religious person is talking about Jesus, he's most likely to call him _"Hazreti İsa"_ which is most commonly written as _Hz. İsa_.

_Huzur _(comfort, presence, quietness etc. in Turkish), on the other hand, can be used in various contexts.


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## panjabigator

The letter ض here changes its sound from Arabic to Urdu.  In Arabic, I think it's a "d" sound, but for Urdu speakers it is Z.  I'm inclined to say that it's from Arabic.


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## Abu Bishr

Hi all

Another word that is used in almost the exact same context as that of حضرة (HaDrah) (and its various pronunciations) is the word جنابك (janaabak). Both in Arabic refer to “an area close to, next to or in the presence of someone or something”. Lane in his lexicon gives numerous meanings for “Janaab” amongst them being: court, yard, open or wide space in front of a house, mansion, abode, a place to which a man betakes himself, etc.

My theory is that both these words were borrowed from Arabic by for example the Turks and Persians and used in the sense described in this thread, and then re-introduced into Egyptian Arabic by the Ottoman Turks like “effendim” and so on.

Now, the answers to the following questions will either verify or falsify my theory:

(1) Are “HaZratak” and “janaabak” only used like this in Egypt from among the Arab countries? Or to put it differently: Are they only used like this in Arab countries that have had a strong Ottoman presence?

(2) Is the letter ض indigenous to Urdu and Persian? If not, then can we assume (and this is a really big assumption) that Urdu and Persian words containing the letter ض are of Arabic origin?

(3) Is there anything in the Arabic usages of these two words that give or could be interpreted to give the meaning of “politeness” . Could it be used, for example, to mean: “I seek your company, court, presence” with “I seek” being implied?

I admit that my questions are very imprecise, but maybe others can proceed along the same lines and come up with more precise questions until we can determine what the origin of “hazrat” is.


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## panjabigator

> (2) Is the letter ض indigenous to Urdu and Persian? If not, then can we assume (and this is a really big assumption) that Urdu and Persian words containing the letter ض are of Arabic origin?



No it isn't.  ‎ظ  ,*ض , and ز, are all sounds imported to Urdu through Persian and Arabic.  There are no _indigenous Indic_ words in Urdu which have these sounds.


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## cherine

Oh Alijsh, why did you have to resurrect this thread? It's embarrasing to see how stubborn I can be 



Alijsh said:


> Yes, I have no doubt that hazrat has Arabic origin. But I'm not sure about its extended meaning that's used in Persian. Do you use it to say as in Persian: Hazrat-e Mohammad (حضرت محمد (ص?
> Do you have these:
> اعلی حضرت
> علیا حضرت


Well, I'll try to be more reasonnable now 

We don't use حضرة (we write it in Arabic with تاء مربوطة and not ت ) in religious context, rather سيدنا sayyiduna which is like "our master" or "our lord" (small "l" of course).

We use HaDrat (pronounce in Egypt HaDr*e*t) with our director for example حضرة المدير 



Abu Bishr said:


> My theory is that both these words were borrowed from Arabic by for example the Turks and Persians and used in the sense described in this thread, and then re-introduced into Egyptian Arabic by the Ottoman Turks like “effendim” and so on.


First, thanks for the informative post.
I like your theory, though I repeat that حضرة is not used in religious context as in Turkish or Persian.


> (1) Are “HaZratak” and “janaabak” only used like this in Egypt from among the Arab countries? Or to put it differently: Are they only used like this in Arab countries that have had a strong Ottoman presence?


Would you please precise what you mean by "this"? Do you mean the religious context or the general respect one?


> (3) Is there anything in the Arabic usages of these two words that give or could be interpreted to give the meaning of “politeness” . Could it be used, for example, to mean: “I seek your company, court, presence” with “I seek” being implied?


Not that I know of. I've seen the word حضرة used in contexts like:  كنا في حضرة النبي (صلى الله عليه وسلم)   which means: we were in the presence of the Prophet. And I think it _is_ a polite and respectful way to say: we were sitting with him.


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## FaheemQazi

hello,

well Urdu is my first language and I know a little about Persian and Arabic. As far as I know none of the words in Arabic ends with the alphabet  ت  . and the words that end with the alphabet ة  are usually feminine. as the word is used for both males and females; it couldn't be the case. generally in Arabic the words that are used for males might be used for females too but the words that are feminine are never used for males.


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## rayloom

FaheemQazi said:


> hello,
> 
> well Urdu is my first language and I know a little about Persian and Arabic. As far as I know none of the words in Arabic ends with the alphabet  ت  . and the words that end with the alphabet ة  are usually feminine. as the word is used for both males and females; it couldn't be the case. generally in Arabic the words that are used for males might be used for females too but the words that are feminine are never used for males.



Words in arabic can end in ت, 
Bayt house بيت 
I don't think I need to mention more examples!

Words ending in a ة are feminine. There is no reason why a feminine word can't be used for males in a genitival construction, which is the case with HaDrat. 
Madrasah "school" (feminine) --> madrasatu Muhammad (male). 

I'd also like to note that whenever a word that ends with a taa marbuuTah ة occurs as a nomen regens in a genitival construction, the t sound is always pronounced, whether in colloquial or Classical/MSA. To the extent that Quranic spelling writes the taa marbuuTah ة as an open taa ت. 
امرأت "woman/wife" for example (got more examples if anybody's interested). 

An example on Colloquial: madrasat Muhammad (there is only a drop of the case ending of madrasah). 

Similarly:
HaDratu Muhammad
HaDrat Muhammad


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## Mahaodeh

I'm inclined to believe it's Arabic, it seems to be quite similar to other overly polite ways of addressing people such as

حضرة السيد
سيادة الرئيس
معالي الوزير
جناب الأخ
سمو الأمير
سعادة السفير
سماحة الشيخ

All of which are used in the same way, all are Arabic, so why would HaDrat not be Arabic?


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## DenisBiH

In Bosnian / BCS the word is _hazreti_ (used as an adjective), and its etymology is given here as:



> _tur._ hazret ← _arap._ ḥaḍrä: blizina, prisustvo





> _Turkish_ hazret ← _Arabic_ ḥaḍrä: proximity, presence


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## ecdadihifzeylerdi

in turkish you can also use hazret in a non-religious context such as you can say "hazretleri" (his hazret / their hazret) for an important person, (king, leader, etc.) 
it would mean his excellency. for example ataturk was usually called as, "gazi mustafa kemal paşa hazretleri", "gazi mustafa kemal paşa, his excellency".  though it is little outdated today. 
and you could also use it for sarcasm. for instance you can call a regular guy "hüseyin efendi hazretleri", if he is pompous for instance. 

in arabic حضرتك is a formal and respectful way to say "you", which has a very close meaning to that in turkish.


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## ancalimon

I always thought Hazret was not Turkish but Arabic and I still think it's Arabic. On the other hand Could there be any relation between Hızır ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hızır ) and Hazret?

For some reason Turks give Hızır extreme respect and think that he is a time traveler, some kind of deus-ex machina and protector of Turks. Actually it wouldn't be wrong to call Hızır as "the patron saint of Turks" or at least "Oghuz Turks"


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## djara

Cherine: "_We don't use حضرة (...) in religious context_"
Well, in Tunisia, we do! It is a soufi religious ceremony. I think it has been called so because at one point, with chants, the sayyid, or Ancestor Cheikh, is supposed to appear to one of the participants who enters into a trance and speaks through him. Hence I think the respect related to the "saint" associated with this appearance. And then we talk about _hadhrit sidi _xxx
A modern interpretation can be found in http://www.al-fann.com/path/Tunisia/Traditional/Hadhra/


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## WadiH

ancalimon said:


> I always thought Hazret was not Turkish but Arabic and I still think it's Arabic. On the other hand Could there be any relation between Hızır ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hızır ) and Hazret?
> 
> For some reason Turks give Hızır extreme respect and think that he is a time traveler, some kind of deus-ex machina and protector of Turks. Actually it wouldn't be wrong to call Hızır as "the patron saint of Turks" or at least "Oghuz Turks"



Hızır is the Quranic character known in Arabic as "Al-Khidhir."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khidr


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## arielipi

Khazeret in Hebrew is a disgusting food eaten in Passover as part of the ceremony...
Interestingly the root kh-z-r also forms the word khazir[pig] in Hebrew...perhaps on purpose?
Also its the name of mumps in Hebrew.
The same root could also give forms of return as in the man returned[ meaning these variations are being said about a living-object]
Also,though rare it can be to mean study the same thing which was already studied


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## BP.

7azrat (in Arabic possible transliterated 7aDharah) is used in a non-religious context in my household to address your spouse!


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## Abu Rashid

arielipi said:


> Khazeret in Hebrew is a disgusting food eaten in Passover as part of the ceremony...
> Interestingly the root kh-z-r also forms the word khazir[pig] in Hebrew...perhaps on purpose?
> Also its the name of mumps in Hebrew.
> The same root could also give forms of return as in the man returned[ meaning these variations are being said about a living-object]
> Also,though rare it can be to mean study the same thing which was already studied



None of these words share a root with ح ض ر.

The equivalent of this would be חצר as ص + ض + ظ -> צ in Hebrew, and biblical Hebrew definitely has this root (meaning settlement/village).

Regarding the word for pig, it is originally kh-n-z-r, but Hebrew has lost the nun, as it drops all nuns with no vowel on them.


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## إسكندراني

BelligerentPacifist said:


> 7azrat (in Arabic possible transliterated 7aDharah) is used in a non-religious context in my household to address your spouse!


It's used in a way similar to this in Egypt; as a mark of respect, children might call their father حضرتك. Its usage, like many other words, varies with geography and social stratum.


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## aruniyan

Abu Rashid said:


> None of these words share a root with ح ض ر.
> 
> ................




How related is this with the word "*ḥadīth*" any links to mean as "The one who give speeches" or "one who _*Answers*_"?


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## Lugubert

MarcB said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Urdu= Dignity, Lord, Title Of Respect
> Farsi =excellency;highness,majesty/etc.
> Link for Hindi-Urdu  hazrat, gives Arabic as derivation
> * http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/search3advanced?dbname=platts&query=hazrat&matchtype=exact&display=utf8*
> 
> *For Sufis it is used as a saint. I will leave it to others to determine the etymology.*


And Steingass' Persian dictionary agrees on the Arabic origin.


FaheemQazi said:


> hello,
> 
> well Urdu is my first language and I know a little about Persian and Arabic. As far as I know none of the words in Arabic ends with the alphabet  ت  . and the words that end with the alphabet ة  are usually feminine. as the word is used for both males and females; it couldn't be the case. generally in Arabic the words that are used for males might be used for females too but the words that are feminine are never used for males.


Many (most? all?) Arabic feminine words imported into Persian convert the ة  to a ت. In Persian, hazrat can be used for deities and kings etc., and for males as well as for females. Steingass quotes (in my simplified transcription) hazrati padshah (His majesty) and hazrati isa and hazrati maryam for Jesus and the Vigin Mary.


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## Abu Rashid

aruniyan said:


> How related is this with the word "*ḥadīth*" any links to mean as "The one who give speeches" or "one who _*Answers*_"?



Zero relation.

Arabic is a very strict and precise language, words which are linked need to have *exactly* the same (usually 3) root letters. ḥadith and ḥaḍaarah share only one phoneme in common, the initial ḥ.

This becomes obvious when they are written in Arabic:
حضر
حدث

I guess it would be like a Chinese speaker thinking hurl and holler are related, because they confuse between 'l' and 'r' a bit. And when you "holler" you "hurl" your words out.


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## aruniyan

Abu Rashid said:


> Zero relation.
> 
> Arabic is a very strict and precise language, words which are linked need to have *exactly* the same (usually 3) root letters. ḥadith and ḥaḍaarah share only one phoneme in common, the initial ḥ.
> 
> This becomes obvious when they are written in Arabic:
> حضر
> حدث
> 
> I guess it would be like a Chinese speaker thinking hurl and holler are related, because they confuse between 'l' and 'r' a bit. And when you "holler" you "hurl" your words out.




Thanks, Just learning to understand Arabic.


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