# uvular trill (r; pronunciation)



## Fumiko Take

Hi there everybody.

To be honest, I don't speak German. But I've found myself attempting to do all the sounds transcribed on the the IPA chart. I really have a big problem with the German R sound. It's rather a typical sound in German than it is in French, so I'd rather leave a post in this box.
People say one of the good ways to be able to articulate the sound is gargling. But I don't think so. Gargling may help me to figure how the sound sounds like, but once I spill out the water, it doesn't help. Not everytime do I have water to gargle, and never while speaking. Even when I pretend to gargle, my "R" is so voiceless, so fricative, rather than a trill one. I sent an email to Professor John C. Wells and he told me to try to imitate hearing an Edith Piaf song, "Non, je ne regrette rien", but how could I ever do that!?

I can do just fine the bilabial and alveolar trills. The lips and the tongue are all under my control. Neither is the uvula, which I haven't manage to trill since it's kind of out of reach for me. Doing an uvular fricative or approximant is not that difficult, though.

Could any of you German learners/speakers help me on this formiddable task? Any tips would be welcome.


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## Demiurg

This sound (called "rollendes R") is not very common in Standard German anymore.  You can still hear it in some dialects but most speakers try to avoid because it sounds rather melodramatic and old-fashioned.


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## Frieder

Perhaps you should try the apico-alveolar approach: Try sounding the "r" spanish or italian style.
There are regions in Germany, like Franconia, where it is pronounced that way actually.

I have some friends of Thai origins who all pronounce it that way, and it doesn't sound too strange


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## Frieder

@Demiurg: The "uvular r" is the "r" normally spoken in standard German. You describe the apico-alveolar "r" (rollendes R), which is much easier to pronouince by many Asian people


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## bearded

Demiurg said:


> This sound (called "rollendes R") is not very common in Standard German anymore. You can still hear it in some dialects but most speakers try to avoid because it sounds rather melodramatic and old-fashioned.


I think there is a misunderstanding here: Fumiko does not refer to 'rollendes R' (italienisches R), but rather she wants to learn how to pronounce the 'normal' German R (uvular: see thread title). The advice by that Professor, 'try to imitate Edith Piaf's R' is a good advice in my view. The OP says 'how would I ever do that', but does not say whether no record/disk is available or the imitation is too difficult. I think it would be extremely hard to give email-instructions as to the necessary mouth or throat movements, or similar...


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## kelt

Hi,

Have you seen diagrams of the mouth cavity suggesting what is doing what when a certain sound is pronounced in German. These are in a book on German pronunciation, but I don't have its name readily at hand. Will try to post it later. On the other hand, these diagrams should be available somewhere on the internet too. Try to look them up. I think this knowledge has helped me.

The second step is to try to focus on the position of the tongue, the uvula etc. while trying to pronounce the uvular R. Preferably in front of a mirror.

You're probably already aware of the fact that Germans pronounce R differently depending on its position in words. If not, you may want to check out this link http://web.archive.org/web/20111128...ng.org/wiki/index.php/German_pronunciation:_R.


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## berndf

The uvular trill [ʀ] is a very rare sound in German. You normally don't use it in ordinary speech at all. The normal realisation of the /r/ phoneme as a fricative ranging from uvular to velar, i.e. [ʁ]~[ɣ]. It is approximately like the end of the Vietnamese <g>/<gh> as in_ gờ_ or _ghê_ which I hear as [gɣ], i.e starting plosive and continuing fricative; just move the tongue a bit further back.

The difference between the fricative [ʁ] and the trill [ʀ] is just that the latter is pronounced more forcefully. I suggest you start with words that start with <gr> as in _grün _or _groß _which should be easy for you as a Vietnamese and then progress to words starting with <r> as _rot _or _Rad _by omitting the plosive start (i.e. make sure the tongue doesn't touch the velum). Once you master the fricative [ʁ] and only then try the trill [ʀ] by adding more force.


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## Demiurg

bearded man said:


> I think there is a misunderstanding here: Fumiko does not refer to 'rollendes R' (italienisches R), but rather she wants to learn how to pronounce the 'normal' German R (uvular: see thread title). The advice by that Professor, 'try to imitate Edith Piaf's R' is a good advice in my view.



Now I'm confused. Fumiko mentioned "gargling" and Edith Piaf clearly sings a "rollendes R", whatever it is called.  I don't see how this goes together.


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## Frank78

Demiurg said:


> Now I'm confused. Fumiko mentioned "gargling"



Why not? The [ʁ] is produced in the throat, just like [x]. A rolling R is produced by your tongue and the palate but don't ask me how to do it.


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## berndf

Demiurg said:


> Now I'm confused. Fumiko mentioned "gargling" and *Edith Piaf clearly sings a "rollendes R"*, whatever it is called. I don't see how this goes together.


No, she doesn't. It is a trilled version of the French/German /r/. The fact that you as a native speaker confuse it with the "rollendes R" proves my point that the uvular trill is not normally used in German.


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## berndf

Frank78 said:


> Why not? The [ʁ] is produced in the throat, just like [x]. A rolling R is produced by your tongue and the *palate *but don't ask me how to do it.


At the alveolar ridge to be precise.


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## Fumiko Take

bearded man said:


> I think there is a misunderstanding here: Fumiko does not refer to 'rollendes R' (italienisches R), but rather she wants to learn how to pronounce the 'normal' German R (uvular: see thread title). The advice by that Professor, 'try to imitate Edith Piaf's R' is a good advice in my view. The OP says 'how would I ever do that', but does not say whether no record/disk is available or the imitation is too difficult. I think it would be extremely hard to give email-instructions as to the necessary mouth or throat movements, or similar...


The professor has said in some of his blog articles that he has no how-to-do foolproof. So I never asked for any instructions (and if he did give me some I would have failed to do it even step-by-step). What I asked was some tips (for instance, using any sort of special tools or something, or any gestures?). And "imitating" a difficult sound sounds strange to me, because doing a bilabial or alveolar trill is natural for me and I have problem to figure the basic mechanics involved.


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## bearded

Demiurg said:


> Now I'm confused. Fumiko mentioned "gargling" and Edith Piaf clearly sings a "rollendes R", whatever it is called. I don't see how this goes together.


I think it is necessary to clarify definition and/or descriprion of sounds. By 'rollendes R' I understand an R like it is often pronounced in Bavaria, Austria or Italy and Spain(tip of the tongue on the upper part of palate towards the teeth, thus producing a vibration); by 'uvular R' (perhaps not exact: fricative, as Berndf says, is more correct) I understand the 'normal' German R as pronounced in Northern Germany: a sound produced in your throat, not with the tip of the tongue. The French R as pronounced by E.Piaf is the 'exaggeration' of the latter. Probably Demiurg meant this R by 'rollendes R'. By trying to imitate it, or - as suggested - coming to it via 'gh' sounds, the result should be the 'normal German R' as wished by the OP. The OP (see thread title: uvular) in my opinion asked how to pronounce the 'normal German R' (''I have a problem with the German R sound'').


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## berndf

bearded man said:


> ... 'rollendes R' ... in Bavaria, Austria ... I understand the 'normal' German R as pronounced in Northern Germany...


It's actually much more complicated than that (I am sure you are aware of that; I just want to point this out for the benefit of readers who are less familiar with German dialects). There is no simple north-south pattern. It depends on local (as distict from regional) dialect, sociolect and register. If you wanted to draw a map, it would look like a quilt.


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## ayuda?

There is a difference in the use of the *guttural r*,depending on what area of Germany you come from, apparently:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guttural_R [Distribution and use of the guttural r —sometimes called the French r ]

*Suggestions on how to practice making that sound that I have heard of… **remember the position of your mouth and lips.
This is something much better seen than simply explained.*
lPractice clearing you throat, and at some point you start to get that uvular trill.
lGargling, as you have mentioned, is what I have seen in several videos—try to remember the position in your mouth later.
lThere used to be a commercial for Ruffles potato chips: “Ruffles have ridges.” They rolled their “*r’*_s_” there and it used to be something a lot of people could imitate. You could google it. 
lllTry this:  Google>pronunciation of the German r [There are several interesting and informative videos links there by native speakers. They even explain those regional variations]  EXCELLENT VIDEOS!


Can any English speaker make that sound? I’d like to think everybody could. 
I don’t see why not, but many do have some trouble with that guttural r.r-r-r-r-B

lThe comment by Berndf is very interesting: “The uvular trill [ʀ] is a very rare sound in German. You normally don't use it in ordinary speech at all.”
Is that a more recent development?


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## Dan2

I think we all realize there is confusion in this thread and we're all trying to dispel the confusion.  Here's my attempt (which involves some - justifiable I think - simplification):

Sounds commonly called "r"s can be made in the front of the mouth (say, alveolar) or the back of the mouth (say, uvular); and they be produced as trills (or single taps) or not (fricatives or continuants).  That gives rise to four general possibilities:

1. front-of-mouth non-trill: English /r/ of "red"
2. front-of-mouth trill: Spanish /r/ of "rojo"; Russian /r/
3. back-of-mouth non-trill: fricative /r/ of standard German "rot" or standard French "rouge"
4. back-of-mouth trill: heard in Edith Piaf's singing

The confusion in this thread began with the OP choosing the thread title "uvular trill" (sound #4 above), but then saying "I really have a big problem with the German R sound", suggesting she wanted to learn sound #3.  Then the reference to Prof. Wells and Edith Piaf (back to sound #4).  German has dialects and stage pronunciations involving /r/s in category #2, which one might wrongly assume the OP meant, given "trill" in the thread title, adding to the confusion.  In the famous "Ruffles have ridges" commercial mentioned above a #2 sound is heard, so that wouldn't seem to be relevant to the OP's question.

Of course, my classification into four categories is a simplification, but I think it's a good starting point for any further discussion.


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## berndf

Dan2 said:


> 1. front-of-mouth non-trill: English /r/ of "red" *(or the Spanish /r/ of ser; which is different but also non-trilled)
> *2. front-of-mouth trill: Spanish /r/ of "rojo"; Russian /r/
> 3. back-of-mouth non-trill: fricative /r/ of standard German "rot" or standard French "rouge"
> 4. back-of-mouth trill: heard in Edith Piaf's singing


Dan, what you have to realize is that for a German native speaker who grew up with the uvular /r/, it is difficult to distinguish 2. and 4. The confusion here is not only terminological but also phonetic. It took me an awfully long time to train my ear to hear the difference and I am still not sure I get it always right.


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## Edinburgher

I suggest that a good way to start would be to imitate a dog's growling.  That would give you the Piaf-style throaty trill (4).  Having mastered (4), you can then move it to (3) by not letting it last for long, just start that roll and immediately glide into the vowel that follows.


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## berndf

ayuda? said:


> The comment by Berndf is very interesting: “The uvular trill [ʀ] is a very rare sound in German. You normally don't use it in ordinary speech at all.”
> Is that a more recent development?


When I hear non-stage pronunciation recording from before, say, 1970 I think I hear a somewhat "stronger" r than we hear it today. But on the other hand, I am born in 1959 and I don't remember ever having learned to trill my rs as a child. So in might be hyper-corrections in those recordings or it the change happened earlier. Maybe listen to speaches by Willy Brandt. I must confess, I don't even remember, if he used uvular or alveolar trills (as I said, the difference is not very noticable for many Germans) but he definitely trilled them.


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## Fumiko Take

Dan2 said:


> Sounds commonly called "r"s can be made in the front of the mouth (say, alveolar) or the back of the mouth (say, uvular); and they be produced as trills (or single taps) or not (fricatives or continuants).  That gives rise to four general possibilities:
> 
> 1. front-of-mouth non-trill: English /r/ of "red"
> 2. front-of-mouth trill: Spanish /r/ of "rojo"; Russian /r/
> 3. back-of-mouth non-trill: fricative /r/ of standard German "rot" or standard French "rouge"
> 4. back-of-mouth trill: heard in Edith Piaf's singing
> 
> The confusion in this thread began with the OP choosing the thread title "uvular trill" (sound #4 above), but then saying "I really have a big problem with the German R sound", suggesting she wanted to learn sound #3.  Then the reference to Prof. Wells and Edith Piaf (back to sound #4).  German has dialects and stage pronunciations involving /r/s in category #2, which one might wrongly assume the OP meant, given "trill" in the thread title, adding to the confusion.  In the famous "Ruffles have ridges" commercial mentioned above a #2 sound is heard, so that wouldn't seem to be relevant to the OP's question.


Oh my my... I thought the uvular trill is occured in Standard Germany (as exactly what I had read from Wikipedia), and I assumed it was the Germany R sound and it would be the #4 sound (although according to Peter Ladforged's "The Sounds of the World Languages", the French uvular slightly differs from the German one). I'm beginning to get confused here: how come such a "standard sound" has became rare and a not-so-popular sound in casual speech? If that's so, is it not "standard" anymore?


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## berndf

Fumiko Take said:


> ...the French uvular slightly differs from the German one...



Yes, the French and German standard /r/s differ slightly. By and large, the French /r/ is a bit "harder" than German /r/ but in both languages trills are rare. The main differences are the following:
1) In German, vocalizations of /r/ in the syllable coda are frequent and following short /a/ the sequence <ar> fuses into a single long /a:/. E.g. the way most speakers pronounce it, _armen _(inflected form of the adjective _arm_) and _Amen _are practivally indistinguishable. In French, such vocalizations happen very, very rarely and they do not create phonemic mergers like the one I mentioned.
2) French /r/ is regurlarly devoiced in front of unvoiced consonants and at the end of a word as in_ porte noire _[pɔχt noɐχ]. In standard German this does not happen as there is phonemic contrast between [ɣ]~[ʁ] (<r>) and [x]~[χ] (=<ch>). Only one dialect (_Rheinisch_) has this devoicing of /r/ in front of unvoiced consonantes, e.g. _Sport_ pronounced as if spelled _Spocht_.


Fumiko Take said:


> how come such a "standard sound" has became rare and a not-so-popular sound in casual speech? If that's so, is it not "standard" anymore?


I am not sure, the trilled uvular /r/ ever was standard. Stage pronunciation traditionally required a trill in both languages (but the alveolar one, not the uvular one). Uvular trills like Edit Piaf's may always have been "artificial". Take Hitler's pronunciation e.g. His public speaking voice is particularly known for his "hard" pronunciation and the markedly trilled /r/s (though, again, alveolar ones as in stage pronunciation). There exists one recording on private conversation and there his /r/s sound pretty much like the modern ones.


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## Fumiko Take

It's funny enough that I've just found out if I pretend to snore, I produce an uvular-trill-like sound. Anyway, thank all of you for all your help.


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## berndf

Fumiko Take said:


> It's funny enough that I've just found out if I pretend to snore, I produce an uvular-trill-like sound. Anyway, thank all of you for all your help.


That gives you a trilled "ch". To make it a trilled "r" you have to add voicing.


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## Dan2

I find Bernd's reply in post 21 excellent and want only to add the following.

Fumiko says (post 20) that she understood Wikipedia to say that the uvular trill is found in standard German.  The article on uvular trills does indeed say that, but it includes the note, "in free variation with the uvular _fricative_".  In a literal sense this description is correct, because both sounds DO occur, and both will be heard as the same phoneme /r/.  But the Wikipedia statement is misleading (and I think Fumiko was misled), because in ordinary contemporary German, the fricative is much more common, as Bernd says.

On another point, in my post on the classification of /r/'s, I specifically referred to the German word "rot" and the French word "rouge" (i.e. syllable-initial /r/'s) to avoid the differing treatment of non-initial /r/'s in the two languages.  Bernd addresses these other /r/'s in post 21.

I believe I was correct to put both "rot" and "rouge" in the "back-of-mouth, fricative/non-trilled" box for standard German and standard French, but that doesn't mean they're necessarily _identical_.  I am curious how native standard-German and -French speakers perceive each other's /r/ in initial position: Identical to your /r/?  Similar but not identical?  Quite different? (I'm interested in general perception here, not a textbook phonetic description.)  Thanks.


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## berndf

In initial position I can't hear any difference.


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## Fumiko Take

Dan2 said:


> I find Bernd's reply in post 21 excellent and want only to add the following.
> 
> Fumiko says (post 20) that she understood Wikipedia to say that the uvular trill is found in standard German.  The article on uvular trills does indeed say that, but it includes the note, "in free variation with the uvular _fricative_".  In a literal sense this description is correct, because both sounds DO occur, and both will be heard as the same phoneme /r/.  But the Wikipedia statement is misleading (and I think Fumiko was misled), because in ordinary contemporary German, the fricative is much more common, as Bernd says.
> 
> On another point, in my post on the classification of /r/'s, I specifically referred to the German word "rot" and the French word "rouge" (i.e. syllable-initial /r/'s) to avoid the differing treatment of non-initial /r/'s in the two languages.  Bernd addresses these other /r/'s in post 21.


So the trill is a variant to the fricative, but it is not as common as the other one. Thanks.
Anyway, in initial position, it'd rather be the trill, as what I perceived from this Youtube video: "Visual Guide to German Pronunciation - Consonantal R" (exact name). However, it's not so strong, it would approximate a flap.
By the way, can a sort of short uvula like mine be trilled? Maybe having a short uvula make me unable to do the uvular trill.


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## berndf

Fumiko Take said:


> So the trill is a variant to the fricative, but it is not as common as the other one. Thanks.
> Anyway, in initial position, it'd rather be the trill, as what I perceived from this Youtube video: "Visual Guide to German Pronunciation - Consonantal R" (exact name). However, it's not so strong, it would approximate a flap.
> By the way, can a sort of short uvula like mine be trilled? Maybe having a short uvula make me unable to do the uvular trill.


Don't take these videos too seriously. If you ask a native speaker to pronounce a sound very clearly he/she will do exactly that and grotesquely overstate it.


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## LoveVanPersie

berndf said:


> There exists one recording on private conversation and there his /r/s sound pretty much like the modern ones.


Did Hitler use an uvular fricative on private conversation? And do you have that recording link?

Does stage pronunciation nowadays still require a trill? Wikipedia says "Until 1957, only two pronunciations were allowed: an alveolar trill [r] and an alveolar tap [ɾ]. After 1957, a uvular trill [ʀ] was also allowed. A voiced uvular fricative [ʁ], used extensively in contemporary Standard German, is not allowed. Therefore, _rot_ 'red' can be pronounced [roːt], [ɾoːt] and [ʀoːt] but not [ʁoːt]."
But it also says "Mangold (2005) states that 'with educated professional radio and TV announcers, as with professional actors on the stage and in film, the [voiced uvular] fricative [realization of] /r/ clearly predominates.'", with the same source, which confuses me.


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## berndf

LoveVanPersie said:


> Did Hitler use an uvular fricative on private conversation? And do you have that recording link?









LoveVanPersie said:


> Does stage pronunciation nowadays still require a trill?


Today (2018), acting schools, don't teach this any more. This is what my daughter told me, who is currently phonetics classes at drama school. In classical singing, though, an alveolar trill is still the predominant realisation of /r/.


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## LoveVanPersie

Are you sure he used an uvular fricative? At 1:19 the _d*r*eißig _sounds a trill to me?


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## LoveVanPersie

Sorry to provide a wrong time! I have corrected it.


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## berndf

LoveVanPersie said:


> Are you sure he used an uvular fricative? At 1:19 the _d*r*eißig _sounds a trill to me?


Yes, you are right. He sometimes changes the realization of his _r_. Listen to _Arbeiter _at 1:58. It is even more obvious there; it is a long alveolar trill. At this passage he switches into his agitator-voice. There is also a difference between r in the the syllable onset and in the syllable coda. In his native Upper-Austrian dialect, the r in the onset is alveolar and there is no r at all in the coda. In all Bavarian dialects, coda rs are completely vocalized. So, when he switches to an alveolar r in the onset it can be either because he switches to his public speaking voice or because he reverts to his native accent, which he generally tried to hide.


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## LoveVanPersie

Good to know it.
Why did he want to hide his native accent?


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## berndf

He wanted to hide everything personal.


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## Hutschi

Hi Fumiko, just to make sure: Do you mean all kinds of "r" or just the "r" at the beginning of a word or of a syllable?

They are mostly very different.

In most regions only the "r" at the beginning is rolled now. At the end of syllables it is weekend very much, in some regions it becomes a kind or "a"-Sound.

I know, you wrote about the rolled "r", but I am not sure whether you know this difference.

If a vowel follows the "r", it is mostly rolled in the way the others described.
If a consonant follows, it is mostly weakend to a "schwa".

So  try to speak "Rollen" or "riechen" or "traben"  with the rolled "r".  

Doktor however is not rolled in the most regions, it is [ˈdɔktoːɐ̯] in standard German  and goes up to "Dokta" (like English "the doctor"  in some versions of "Doctor Who".)
See:


berndf said:


> ...
> 1) In German, vocalizations of /r/ in the syllable coda are frequent and following short /a/ the sequence <ar> fuses into a single long /a:/. E.g. the way most speakers pronounce it, _armen _(inflected form of the adjective _arm_) and _Amen _are practivally indistinguishable. In French, such vocalizations happen very, very rarely and they do not create phonemic mergers like the one I mentioned...



PS:
There seems to be a difference to "der Arm", here its is: Arm – Wiktionary [aʁm]
They state the moct are using this vocalisation. (Me too.)
In my region also "arm" is spoken this way. In the North "armen" and "amen" both seem to be rhyming to "Rahmen".
But don't worry. it is easy to spekt the vowels there, whyle the rolled "r" is not spoken in such positions.
edit: removed Typo and added Bernd's quotation and examples.


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## Schlabberlatz

Hutschi said:


> In most regions only the "r" at the beginning is rolled now.


If I have understood the preceding posts correctly, it is not rolled or trilled at all in most regions.


Hutschi said:


> There seems to be a difference to "der Arm", here its is: Arm – Wiktionary [aʁm]


No difference here in Westphalia (as far as I can tell).
"Lieber arm/Arm dran als Arm ab" – this pun works without any problems here.
(It’s possible that some speakers here pronounce the "r"; I’m not sure. Will have to listen closely the next times I hear one of these words spoken by somebody from hereabouts.)

For learners of German: "*a*rm dran sein" means to be in a bad situation, to be pitiable.


> unglücklich, bedauernswert, beklagenswert
> *Beispiele*
> 
> das arme Kind
> der arme Kerl
> die armen Seelen [im Fegefeuer]
> meine armen (umgangssprachlich; _übermäßig strapazierten, geschundenen, schmerzenden o. ä._) Beine!
> (umgangssprachlich) *sie ist arm dran* _(es geht ihr nicht gut)_
> <substantiviert>: der Ärmste, was hat er [alles] erdulden müssen!
> du Arme[r]!
> Duden | arm | Rechtschreibung, Bedeutung, Definition, Synonyme, Herkunft


"(der) *A*rm (ist) dran" means that it is still attached to the body.


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## berndf

Schlabberlatz said:


> If I have understood the preceding posts correctly, it is not rolled or trilled at all in most regions.


Correct. But I think Hutschi didn't really mean _rolled_ but any kind of _non-vocalised _realisation, irrespective of whether trilled, fricative or approximant; alveolar or uvular.


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## JClaudeK

Am besten wär's vielleicht, sich mal ein paar Proben anzuhören, findet Ihr nicht?

reagieren
Friedrich Nietzsche
Berlin

Wenn mich nicht alles täuscht, werden hier alle Sprechproben mit einem "Standard-r" ausgesprochen. 

Brot
rot
Hier wird es schon problematischer, vor allem Thonatas' Aussprache weicht vom "Standard" ab. 


Wie seht / hört Ihr das?


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## berndf

JClaudeK said:


> Wenn mich nicht alles täuscht, werden hier alle Sprechproben mit einem "Standard-r" ausgesprochen.


What is a "Standard-r"? If that were clear we wouldn't have this discussion. As to the the first of your examples,_ reagieren_, I hear one uvular fricative [ʁ] (Vortarulo) and one uvular trill [ʀ] (Thonatas).


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## JClaudeK

berndf said:


> What is a "Standard-r"? If that were clear we wouldn't have this discussion.


And do you think that after this dicussion, things are clearer? 
On the contrary .....!!


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## berndf

JClaudeK said:


> And do you think that after this dicussion, things are clearer?
> On the contrary .....!!


And? What is a "Standard-r"? The realisation of r is so varied in German that many dictionaries, including Duden, have just given up providing a phonetic description and just transcribe the phoneme as /r/ (however it is realised).

If *I* had to say what *I* would consider the most widespread realisation, I would say it is [ʁ]. And those dictionaries that do voice an opinion generally transcribe the non-vocalised r as [ʁ] as well.


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## Schlabberlatz

The "r" in "rot" pronounced by fw3493af is an alveolar "r", I think rot
Is this correct? I’m not sure.
(The other "r"s sound like uvular "r"s.)


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## berndf

Schlabberlatz said:


> The "r" in "rot" pronounced by fw3493af is an alveolar "r", I think rot
> Is this correct? I’m not sure.


Alveolar, yes. But not a trill.


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## Schlabberlatz

Thanks!


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## JClaudeK

berndf said:


> And? What is a *"*Standard-r*"*?


The quotation marks are here to show what I mean.


berndf said:


> As to the the first of your examples,_ reagieren_, I hear one uvular fricative [ʁ] (Vortarulo) and one uvular trill [ʀ] (Thonatas).


yes, a very slight trill [ʀ].


berndf said:


> The realisation of r is so varied in German that many dictionaries, including Duden, have just given up providing a phonetic description and just transcribe the phoneme as /r/ (however it is realised).


I agree with you on this point.
So, I think that it's far better to give _Nichtmuttersprachlern _some acceptable samples (for what I'd call  "Standard-rs")  than lots of descriptions (useless for most non-specialists in  phonetics)....
..... and also better than this "advice":


Fumiko Take said:


> I sent an email to Professor John C. Wells and he told me to try to imitate hearing an Edith Piaf song, "Non, je ne regrette rien"


.


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## berndf

JClaudeK said:


> I agree with you on this point.
> So, I think that it's far better to give _Nichtmuttersprachlern _acceptable models (that's what I call a "Standard-r") for how to pronounce "r" than lots of descriptions (useless for most non-specialists in phonetics)
> and better than this "advice":


Please bear in mind that this thread is *explicitly *about _uvular *trill*s_.

In addition, you still haven't given any clue yet as to what constitutes a "standard" r for you and why. The only thing I can deduce from your samples is that you considered at least two different realisations as "standard", the trilled and the non-trilled voiced uvular.


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## JClaudeK

berndf said:


> Please bear in mind that this thread is *explicitly *about _uvular *trill*s_.


So, Dan's answer is off topic for you?  
Than,  many other answers are off topic (including some of your's)!


Dan2 said:


> I think we all realize there is confusion in this thread and we're all trying to dispel the confusion. Here's my attempt (which involves some - justifiable I think - simplification):
> 
> Sounds commonly called "r"s can be made in the front of the mouth (say, alveolar) or the back of the mouth (say, uvular); and they be produced as trills (or single taps) or not (fricatives or continuants). That gives rise to four general possibilities:
> 
> 1. front-of-mouth non-trill: English /r/ of "red"
> 2. front-of-mouth trill: Spanish /r/ of "rojo"; Russian /r/
> 3. back-of-mouth non-trill: fricative /r/ of standard German "rot" or standard French "rouge"
> 4. back-of-mouth trill: heard in Edith Piaf's singing


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## berndf

JClaudeK said:


> So, Dan's answer is off topic for you?


It is off-topic *not to distinguish *between trilled and non-trilled variants. Dan pointed out that you do not have to trill your rs in German. And that is on-topic.


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## JClaudeK

Nur das noch einmal:


berndf said:


> The realisation of r is so varied in German that many dictionaries, including Duden, have just given up providing a phonetic description and just transcribe the phoneme as /r/ (however it is realised).


Mehr brauchen wir nicht. 




Dein _Edit_ seh' ich jetzt erst


berndf said:


> The only thing I can deduce from your samples is that you considered at least two different realisations as "standard", the trilled and the non-trilled voiced uvular.


that's it, more or less (only the very  slightly _trilled_ "r" is what I call "Standard-r", too).
*But*


JClaudeK said:


> vor allem Thonatas' Aussprache weicht [des Öfteren] vom "Standard" ab.


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