# What is Islamic Culture and Religion?



## WillyLandron

What are the basic principles of Islam? 

Who are Muslims in the world today? 

Where do they live?

What do Muslims think about people with other beliefs?

Is there such a thing as Muslim values?

How do they feel about issues such as murder, suicide, war and abusing the weak?

Do Muslim embrace some Western values, do they reject others?

Is Science and secularism incompatible with Muslim faith?


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## Laia

If you don't mind (? si no te importa), Willy, I'd like to add another question:

I'd like to know exactly how they see women.


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## WillyLandron

Laia said:
			
		

> If you don't mind (? si no te importa), Willy, I'd like to add another question:
> 
> I'd like to know exactly how they see women.



That's an excelent question. I'd like to know that too!


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## Jhorer Brishti

I'll only compose a short message here since your questions are good and will take a considerable amount of time to answer completely..

Muslims are found the world over and Islam is the second most popular religion in the world to date(after Christianity). So there really isn't any one "muslim" culture just like Christianity. The five countries with the largest number of islamic adherents in the world are, in descending order: Indonesia(southeast asian country), Pakistan(South Asian country), India(South Asian country), Bangladesh(South asian country), and Egypt(North African Country). Only one of these states is an arab/middle eastern one. According to the same page on wikipedia, China has the ninth largest population of muslims! As you can see there is no one muslim race and all the muslims in the world are connected only by religion. The answers to your questions will vary largely depending on who and where in the world you ask them..


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## Chaska Ñawi

I work from time to time with the local Muslim community on interfaith issues, have several Muslim friends, and studied Islam in a university religion course.  However, as I am not a Muslim myself, I don't feel I have any right to speak at this point in the thread.  I may throw in my two cents later on, but don't feel it's appropriate at this juncture.

Excellent idea for a thread... though I suspect it may be as hard for a Muslim to pigeonhole certain elements of his or her religion as it is for me to pigeonhole mine.


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## WillyLandron

Thanks, Jhorer Brishti.

So there isn't one Muslim culture and the countries with the most Muslims are not only not Arab but except for Egypt are not even in the Middle East.

*I think that's an excellent start!*

So we can pretty much say that Muslims around the world have different cultures just like Christians around the world have different cultures. A Chilean, a Spaniard, a Kenyan, a Korean, and a Canadian can all be Christian and yet have very different cultures and perhaps even values. They might feel united in a belief system but have different languages and ways of seeing the world...

Thank you very much.


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## WillyLandron

Chaska Ñawi said:
			
		

> Excellent idea for a thread... though I suspect it may be as hard for a Muslim to pigeonhole certain elements of his or her religion as it is for me to pigeonhole mine.



I think that even if we learn just a little bit from them, it will mean alot to all of us. I think the thread is going well. 

Already, I think, the myth of an _Islamic Culture_ has been challanged by the fact that the countries are diverse and that the relgion is so far spread out. I think.

Let's see what some of our Muslims brothers and sisters, and knowledgeable people in general, have to say.


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## elroy

WillyLandron said:
			
		

> So there isn't one Muslim culture and the countries with the most Muslims are not only not Arab but except for Egypt are not even in the Middle East.


 
Egypt is an Arab country.


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## timpeac

elroy said:
			
		

> Egypt is an Arab country.


 
What is the definition of an Arab country? (purely out of interest, I don't mean to suggest it either is or isn't).


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## elroy

timpeac said:
			
		

> What is the definition of an Arab country? (purely out of interest, I don't mean to suggest it either is or isn't).


 
This should help explain it.  It also includes a list of Arab countries.


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## timpeac

elroy said:
			
		

> This should help explain it. It also includes a list of Arab countries.


 
I don't like links without comment as an answer to a question here, to be honest, since I know I can google the topic if I want and anyway it stifles discussion. It's also dangerous for you because by inference you will be assumed to support every aspect of the link if you post it as an answer without comment (and maybe you do agree with it all but personally I have yet to find a wikipedia entry on a topic I know about that I agree 100% with).

Anyway, _my_ interpretation of that site is that this is the most important point it makes -

The Arabic language forms a unifying feature of the Arab world: though different areas use local dialects of Arabic, all share in the use of the standard classical language.

Although it seems rather back to front as an answer to the question - "Arabic countries all share this feature", as opposed to "xxx is something that will ipso facto mean a country is Arabic".


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## cuchuflete

The language definition may not work for all countries. What do you do with Morocco, where Arabic is the primary language, yet a very large portion of the population--perhaps a majority--is of Berber descent?

For the wikipedia lovers amongst you:



> Soon after independence, the countries of North Africa established Arabic as their official language, replacing French (except in Libya), although the shift from French to Arabic for official purposes continues even to this day. As a result, most Berbers had to study and know Arabic, and had no opportunities to use their mother tongue at school or university. This may have accelerated the existing process of Arabization of Berbers, especially in already bilingual areas, such as among the Chaouis


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## elroy

timpeac said:
			
		

> I don't like links without comment as an answer to a question here, to be honest, since I know I can google the topic if I want and anyway it stifles discussion. It's also dangerous for you because by inference you will be assumed to support every aspect of the link if you post it as an answer without comment (and maybe you do agree with it all but personally I have yet to find a wikipedia entry on a topic I know about that I agree 100% with).
> 
> Anyway, _my_ interpretation of that site is that this is the most important point it makes -
> 
> The Arabic language forms a unifying feature of the Arab world: though different areas use local dialects of Arabic, all share in the use of the standard classical language.
> 
> Although it seems rather back to front as an answer to the question - "Arabic countries all share this feature", as opposed to "xxx is something that will ipso facto mean a country is Arabic".


 
I agree with you about the dubiousness of Wikipedia entries.  I posted the link in the hopes that it might help provide a starting point - since I didn't know how much or how little you knew about what constituted an "Arab country."

My take is that Arab is an _ethnicity _- just like Caucasian or Slavic.  It emcompasses more than one religion and nationstate.  As the site said, the Arabic language is spoken across the Arab world.  I'm hazy on the history, but I'm pretty sure Arabs were once one big tribe that eventually developed into several modern nationstates.  I don't think that language is the only combining factor; Arabs speak Arabic because they are Arab and not the other way around.

Anyway, this may be slightly off-topic; however, to the extent that it helps clarify the distinction between Arab and Muslim, it might belong here.

Arabs were the first to adopt Islam, but there have always been and continue to be Arabs of other religions, such that the two terms are by no means synonymous.


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## timpeac

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> The language definition may not work for all countries. What do you do with Morocco, where Arabic is the primary language, yet a very large portion of the population--perhaps a majority--is of Berber descent?


 
I don't understand the problem here - within the definition of that site a distinctive feature of an Arab country is that Arabic is the main language and it defines Morocco as an Arab country and that Arabic is the primary language - which is consistent with the definition.


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## elroy

timpeac said:
			
		

> I don't understand the problem here - within the definition of that site a distinctive feature of an Arab country is that Arabic is the main language and it defines Morocco as an Arab country and that Arabic is the primary language - which is consistent with the definition.


 
Right.  Most (if not all) "Arab countries" do not consist exclusively of Arabs.

There is also the Arab League, membership of which indicates status as an "Arab country."


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## cuchuflete

timpeac said:
			
		

> I don't understand the problem here - within the definition of that site a distinctive feature of an Arab country is that Arabic is the main language and it defines Morocco as an Arab country and that Arabic is the primary language - which is consistent with the definition.


It is, Timpeac, a tautology. Morocco has about 12,000,000 people of Berber ethnicity. They speak Arabic, among other languages, because it was imposed. That doesn't make them Arab.

Elroy wrote:  " My take is that Arab is an _ethnicity".  Berbers are of a distinct ethnic group.  
_


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## timpeac

elroy said:
			
		

> I agree with you about the dubiousness of Wikipedia entries. I posted the link in the hopes that it might help provide a starting point - since I didn't know how much or how little you knew about what constituted an "Arab country."
> 
> My take is that Arab is an _ethnicity _- just like Caucasian or Slavic. It emcompasses more than one religion and nationstate. As the site said, the Arabic language is spoken across the Arab world. I'm hazy on the history, but I'm pretty sure Arabs were once one big tribe that eventually developed into several modern nationstates. I don't think that language is the only combining factor; Arabs speak Arabic because they are Arab and not the other way around.
> 
> Anyway, this may be slightly off-topic; however, to the extent that it helps clarify the distinction between Arab and Muslim, it might belong here.
> 
> Arabs were the first to adopt Islam, but there have always been and continue to be Arabs of other religions, such that the two terms are by no means synonymous.


 
Thank you!! That's so much more interesting and informative than that link! Anyway, I hope Willy as the starter of this thread doesn't consider it offtopic, and I apologise if he does. I felt it quite important for someone like me to understand fully the question of "what is Islam" to also know what is meant by "Arab" since the two are so often mixed (not necessarily by anyone here).

By the way I think Willy was only saying above that Egypt wasn't a middle eastern country not that it wasn't Arab (or is it middle eastern??!! I fully admit my ignorance on this topic!!)


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## timpeac

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> It is, Timpeac, a tautology. Morocco has about 12,000,000 people of Berber ethnicity. They speak Arabic, among other languages, because it was imposed. That doesn't make them Arab.
> 
> Elroy wrote: " My take is that Arab is an _ethnicity". Berbers are of a distinct ethnic group. _


 
But Cuchu I don't disagree. I say above that that definition is faulty becuase it simply says "in Arab countries Arabic is the main language" but doesn't name a factor that would define a country as being Arab (the same sort of argument as all blackbirds are black but not all black birds are blackbirds) which is what I criticise in its being back to front above.

It just says that Arabic is the main language in Arab countries and defines Morocco as an Arab country so Arabic being the main language is totally consistent. As you so rightly point out, speaking Arabic is not enough on its own to make a country Arabic. I agree with you both that it is an ethnic difference, not one of language (although the two ideas are very closely linked).

So with all that in mind, what is it that makes Morocco Arabic (and therefore Islamic?? or not?? I still hope Willy thinks this is relevant as in answer to "what is Islamic" I think many people would ask "Arabic is at least a subset" so I think this question needs to be addressed) or are we saying that Morocco is not Arabic? (Not Islamic?)


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## elroy

timpeac said:
			
		

> By the way I think Willy was only saying above that Egypt wasn't a middle eastern country not that it wasn't Arab (or is it middle eastern??!! I fully admit my ignorance on this topic!!)


 
Willy was observing that of the 5 countries with the most Muslims, all but Egypt are not in the Middle East (which answers your question: Egypt _is _a Middle Eastern country).  However, he also incorrectly (and perhaps unintentionally) said that all 5 countries were not Arab.  My post was intended only a short note to clarify that Egypt _is _an Arab country.

"The Middle East" is a geographical region.  It includes Arab and non-Arab countries; Muslims, Christians, Jews, and Druze; several languages - you get the idea.  Because of Egypt's proximity to the Arabian Peninsula (which is part of the Middle East), it is considered a Middle Eastern country.  The same cannot really be said of Morocco - even though it is officially an Arab country and most of its population is Muslim.  In fact, the Arabic word for Morocco is "al-Maghrib," which comes from the same root as "Al-Gharb" - the West (more here).

By the way, Cuchu is right.  Morocco's status as an Arab country occults the fact that a significant portion of the population is not Arab - just like Israel's status as a Jewish state does not account for Arab Israelis, who make up 20% of the population.


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## timpeac

elroy said:
			
		

> Willy was observing that of the 5 countries with the most Muslims, all but Egypt are not in the Middle East (which answers your question: Egypt _is _a Middle Eastern country).


But what makes that true? Why isn't it an African country (whose major religion is Islam after all).


			
				elroy said:
			
		

> The same cannot really be said of Morocco - even though it is officially an Arab country and most of its population is Muslim. In fact, the Arabic word for Morocco is "al-Maghrib," which comes from the same root as "Al-Gharb" - the West (more here).
> 
> By the way, Cuchu is right. Morocco's status as an Arab country occults the fact that a significant portion of the population is not Arab - just like Israel's status as a Jewish state does not account for Arab Israelis, who make up 20% of the population.


 So what is it that makes it an Arab country then? Is it just because the Arab world considers it so (which is fair enough).


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## elroy

timpeac said:
			
		

> But Cuchu I don't disagree. I say above that that definition is faulty becuase it simply says "in Arab countries Arabic is the main language" but doesn't name a factor that would define a country as being Arab (the same sort of argument as all blackbirds are black but not all black birds are blackbirds) which is what I criticise in its being back to front above.


 
You are right.  That's also why I said earlier that we speak Arabic because we're Arab and not the other way around.  Many non-Arab Muslims learn and speak Arabic, but they are not Arab. 



> So with all that in mind, what is it that makes Morocco Arabic (and therefore Islamic?? or not?? I still hope Willy thinks this is relevant as in answer to "what is Islamic" I think many people would ask "Arabic is at least a subset" so I think this question needs to be addressed) or are we saying that Morocco is not Arabic? (Not Islamic?)


 
Morocco is an Arab country because the majority of its citizens are Arab - unfortunately, as is the case in so many other countries, the minority Berber population was not accounted for.  Think of the Basques in Spain; the difference there is that Basque is recognized as an official language and Basques as a separate ethnic group.  (Nevertheless, I am not Moroccan so I'm not entirely sure what the exact situation is flike there.)

The fact that Morocco is Arab does not make it Islamic.  Lebanon, an Arab country, is traditionally a Christian country - although I think Muslims are or will soon become the majority.  As I said earlier, Arabs were the first to adopt Islam; most of them did so but not all of them.  I don't understand what "Arabic is at least a subset" is supposed to mean.  That's like saying "Caucasian is a subset of Christianity."  Most Arabs are Muslims, but most Muslims are not Arab - and the number of non-Muslim Arabs is sizable.  As a Christian Arab, I have as much affiliation with Islam as you do.

Morocco _is_ officially an "Arab country"; however, it is home to many non-Arabs, as well as non-Muslims.


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## elroy

timpeac said:
			
		

> But what makes that true? Why isn't it an African country (whose major religion is Islam after all).


 
It _is_ an African country.  Arab countries exist in Africa and Asia.

I don't understand the relevance of the parenthetical insertion; it has no bearing on whether Egypt is Arab.  There are other African countries in which Islam is the major religion that are not Arab.  The percentage of non-Muslim Egyptians is, in fact, higher than it is in most Arab countries.  Nevertheless, Egypt is an Arab country.  



> So what is it that makes it an Arab country then? Is it just because the Arab world considers it so (which is fair enough).


 
See my previous post.  I do think it's simply a question of numbers and percentages.


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## timpeac

elroy said:
			
		

> I don't understand what "Arabic is at least a subset" is supposed to mean. That's like saying "Caucasian is a subset of Christianity." Most Arabs are Muslims, but most Muslims are not Arab - and the number of non-Muslim Arabs is sizable. As a Christian Arab, I have as much affiliation with Islam as you do.


 
No it's not - or at least it's not meant to. My question (not assertion since I don't know) is that if all Arabs are Muslim (well the vast majority, of course there are members of any race that are members of many religions from Buddhism to scientology) then it is at least a subset of all Muslims. This is not the same as "caucasian is a subset of Christianity" since a significant number of caucasians are atheist for example.


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## timpeac

elroy said:
			
		

> It _is_ an African country. Arab countries exist in Africa and Asia.
> 
> I don't understand the relevance of the parenthetical insertion; it has no bearing on whether Egypt is Arab. There are other African countries in which Islam is the major religion that are not Arab. The percentage of non-Muslim Egyptians is, in fact, higher than it is in most Arab countries. Nevertheless, Egypt is an Arab country.
> 
> 
> 
> See my previous post. I do think it's simply a question of numbers and percentages.


 
Yes fair enough - there is an element of cross-posting going on between us here.


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## elroy

timpeac said:
			
		

> No it's not - or at least it's not meant to. My question (not assertion since I don't know) is that if all Arabs are Muslim (well the vast majority, of course there are members of any race that are members of many religions from Buddhism to scientology) then it is at least a subset of all Muslims. This is not the same as "caucasian is a subset of Christianity" since a significant number of caucasians are atheist for example.


 
All Arabs are not Muslim. How significant does the number of non-Muslim Arabs have to be for it to invalidate the "subset" claim?


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## timpeac

elroy said:
			
		

> All Arabs are not Muslim. How significant does the number of non-Muslim Arabs have to be for it to invalidate the "subset" claim?


Just significant enough for someone "in the know" like you to consider it so - so I'll accept that. I really haven't any agenda here, just trying to understand. It is very confusing for someone like me - completely out of the situation - to understand all the dynamics - geography, race, religion - all of which intersect and overlap. I don't think I can fully understand the role of one of the major religions - Islam - without getting some grasp on this which is probably quite obvious to you


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## cuchuflete

elroy said:
			
		

> Morocco _is_ officially an "Arab country"; however, it is home to many non-Arabs, as well as non-Muslims.



The Berbers are around 35-40% of the population of Morocco.
Their language is in widespread use, along with Arabic. If you believe what the CIA has on offer--a dubious proposition at times--over 99% of the country's population is "Arab-Berber", so the 'many non-Arabs' statement is correct.
Non-Muslims are few.  

To sum up, Morocco is a North African Muslim country. 

The original question about acceptance of "Western values" by Muslims is a little hard to cope with in the absence of some statement of what constitutes "Western values".  

It brings to mind the quite possibly apocryphal exchange between a "Western" journalist and Mahatma Ghandi, who was neither "Western" despite his British education, nor Muslim.

Journalist: Mr. Ghandi, what do you think of Western Civilization?
Ghandi: Ahhh, that would be a very good idea!


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## borhane

1-Muslims believe in one God 
2-Baghdad (Irak) Cordoe(Indalous) Damas (syria) Cairo ( Masr) and Fes (Morocco) are the greatest cities never founded by Muslims
3-If any one wants to know the Islamic culture he has to read Alf leilah wa leilah ( one hundred night and one ) or many other books like Al-hayawane , Ouyoune al-akhbar ........
3-It's up to the family of the murded to kill or to forgive the killer
4-,Yes Muslims embrace the most Universal values and reject others !!!!
5-The woman is treated right in muslim countries , even better than in the West


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## Josh_

borhane said:
			
		

> 3-If any one wants to know the Islamic culture he has to read Alf leilah wa leilah ( one hundred night and one ) or many other books like Al-hayawane , Ouyoune al-akhbar ........


You mean _a thousand nights and one night_, or as it is otherwise known in English, 1001 Arabian Nights.

Also, while I haven't read the majority of the stories, I don't think they would give a good indication of Muslim culture as it has been and is actually lived, but they do give a good indication of Muslim literature and folklore of the past.


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## chula

I am not exactly going to answers posted, because I am not a muslim, but I have a lot of friends who are muslims. I think that it is very important to know  the difference between the fundamentalists and the "moderate" believers of *any* world religion. In the name of "God" many horrible crimes have been commited and are still being committed. Through the centuries religion has always been instrumentalized by people who have other interests, that are not precisely bound to religion.  
I think that in order to understand another religion is important to have this in mind.


Chula


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## Laia

borhane said:
			
		

> 5-The woman is treated right in muslim countries , even better than in the West


 
Why women can't show their hair? Why men can show their hair?


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## Brioche

What are the basic principles of Islam? 
Islam has 5 principles, often called the 5 Pillars of Islam
1. Faith: There is no god but Allah, and Mohamet is his final messenger.
2. Prayer: 5 obligatory prayers per day. Dawn, noon, mid-afternoon, sunset and nightfall.
3. Alms: Muslims must make charitable donations to Muslims.
4. Fast: Muslims do not eat or drink from dawn to dusk in the month of Ramadan.
5. Pilgrimage: Every Muslim who is physically and financially able should make the journey to Mecca.

Muslims believe that the Koran is the word of God.
They base their practices on the Koran, the Sunnah and the Hadith.
The Sunnah is the way the Prophet lived his life.
The Hadith collected sayings reputed to have been made by Mahomet

What do Muslims think about people with other beliefs?
Muslims believe that all people are born Muslim.
Thus you do not "convert" to Islam, but "revert".
Islam teaches that only Islam is unquestionably authentic, and thus all other religions are false.

In Saudi Arabia there are no places of prayer/worship for any other religion. It is a crime in Saudi Arabia to practice other religions.

All 5 schools of Muslim thought agree that the death is the penalty for a Muslim who converts to another religion.

Non-muslims cannot give evidence against a Muslim in an Islamic court.

If you want more about Islamic beliefs click on Ask an Imam
http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/index.php

This site claims to give genuine Islamic answers. 

Here is an example:
"_No Muslim is allowed to imitate or resemble the Kuffaar in any way_." 
Kuffaar = non-believer, from the Arabic word "deny".


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## borhane

Laia said:
			
		

> Why women can't show their hair? Why men can show their hair?


Hello
what's an interesting remark Laia !!!!
it's simple ............. Arabs say that the hair in the half of the womans' beauty 
And in Islam, the woman cannot show its beauty to other men except her husband !!!
They cannot accept that an other man see the hair , the legs and other parts of his , wife's mother's or sister's body
It's the Arab famous inviolability and safekeeping _*( al-hormah)*_
these are our customs and traditions , and women have never ever complain about that , so please respect it


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## mahaz

WillyLandron said:
			
		

> What are the basic principles of Islam?
> 
> Who are Muslims in the world today?
> 
> Where do they live?
> 
> What do Muslims think about people with other beliefs?
> 
> Is there such a thing as Muslim values?
> 
> How do they feel about issues such as murder, suicide, war and abusing the weak?
> 
> Do Muslim embrace some Western values, do they reject others?
> 
> Is Science and secularism incompatible with Muslim faith?


 
*What are the basic principles of Islam?* 

*Principles of Islam:*
*1.* Belief in God's oneness
*2. *Belief in the Prophethood
*3. *Belief in the hereafter (life after death and the doom's day)
*4. *Belief in Angels 
*5. *Belief in Devine Books

*Who are Muslims in the world today? *

People who believes in Islamic Principles and the Islamic Fundamentals are the MUSLIMS in the world.

*Fundamentals of Islam:*
*1. *Firm Belief in 'Kalima Tayyibah'

*2. *Saying 'Slat' (Prayers) five times a day..(though many Muslims dont offer prayers daily but that is another issue)

*3. *To pay 'Zakat' (alms) once in a year according to the percentage, described by Shari'ah, of their total wealth.

*4. *Performing 'Hajj' (Pilgrimage), at least once in life, if one affords.

*5. *Observing 'Fast' in the Holy month of 'Ramadan'.

*Articles Essential to Believe in:*

*1. *Firm belief in the 'Day of Judgement'.
*2. *Firm belief in the 'Day of Resurrection.'

*Where do they live?*

They is not only one particular place where they are found all over the world.

5 Well known Muslim Countries are:
*1. Saudi Arabia* (this country is considered as the most Noble country for Muslims all over the world, no matter what kind of culture thay have, because this is the place where *'Hajj'* is performed every year.
*2. Middle East(U.A.E)*
*3. Pakistan*
*4. Turkey*
*5. Egypt*

*What do Muslims think about people with other beliefs?*

They Believe that every human being is the off-spring of 'ADAM & EVE' but now they all have been devided in different groups according to their personal Norms, beliefs, & interests.

For Example: as they say that basic principle of Christen and Muslim is same as they both believe in God's oneness except that Christen considers Hazrat Issa (Jesus) as God's son but Muslim says that God is alone and he has no wife, so how come he may have a son even he dont have perents.

*Is there such a thing as Muslim values?*

Yes, thay have so may Muslim Values as one of them is that Muslim males and females dont believe on having sexual encounter without having 'NIKKAH' i.e. marriage . without marraige sexual encouter is regarded as sin and one who commits this sin, his and her punishment is stone to death as decided by their devine book so 98% Muslims dont have courage to commit this sin.

*How do they feel about issues such as murder, suicide, war and abusing the weak?*

Murder, suicide and abusing the weak, they all are sins. While war is conditional.

*Do Muslim embrace some Western values, do they reject others?*

The Western values, which are good, are embraced while the values which are against humanity are rejected.

*Is Science and secularism incompatible with Muslim faith?*

No, science is not incompatible with Muslim faith. 

Note: I have some doubts about secularism and their faith so cant say any thing regarding this.


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## timpeac

borhane said:
			
		

> Hello
> what's an interesting remark Laia !!!!
> it's simple ............. Arabs say that the hair in the half of the womans' beauty
> And in Islam, the woman cannot show its beauty to other men except her husband !!!
> They cannot except that an other man see the hair , the legs and other parts of his , wifes' mothers' or sisters' body
> It's the Arab famous inviolability and safekeeping _*( al-hormah)*_
> these are our customs and traditions , and women have never ever complain about that , so please respect it


 
Why should it be incumbent upon the woman to hide attributes that might attract the male gaze rather than upon the man to avert his gaze?


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## Laia

borhane said:
			
		

> Hello
> what's an interesting remark Laia !!!!
> it's simple ............. Arabs say that the hair in the half of the womans' beauty
> And in Islam, the woman cannot show its beauty to other men except her husband !!!
> They cannot except that an other man see the hair , the legs and other parts of his , wifes' mothers' or sisters' body
> It's the Arab famous inviolability and safekeeping _*( al-hormah)*_
> these are our customs and traditions , and women have never ever complain about that , so please respect it


 
And if I travel to a Muslim country, they would respect the fact that I don't want to hide my beautiful hair and my beautiful legs? 
Only the husband/father/brothers can see the woman's hair? Wow. Excuse me, I can respect, but I cannot understand.


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## Laia

borhane said:
			
		

> Hello
> what's an interesting remark Laia !!!!
> it's simple ............. Arabs say that the hair in the half of the womans' beauty
> And in Islam, the woman cannot show its beauty to other men except her husband !!!
> They cannot except that an other man see the hair , the legs and other parts of his , wifes' mothers' or sisters' body
> It's the Arab famous inviolability and safekeeping _*( al-hormah)*_
> these are our customs and traditions , and women have never ever complain about that , so please respect it


 
The thing is that I find this way of behaviour as if the women were property of the men.
_So, eh! this is my wife. She's mine._
So if women marry to men, they lose their freedom?
What happens if I don't want to marry anyone? If I want to be a single happy woman?

I'm only of myself. I'm not of my father, I'm not of my brother, etc. I can dress the way I want. I don't expect men looking at me, I don't care about what men can like or dislike about me.

I don't know if you understand what I'm trying to say.


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## Brioche

borhane said:
			
		

> 5-The woman is treated right in muslim countries , even better than in the West


 
I suppose it all depends on what you think "treated right" is!

In Muslim countries women are murdered because they have brought "shame" on their families.  This is forbidden under Muslim law, but it still happens.


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## Laia

Brioche said:
			
		

> I suppose it all depends on what you think "treated right" is!


 
Being treated right, as I see it, is being treated as a human being, and not as a (property of your husband) thing.


----------



## borhane

Brioche said:
			
		

> What are the basic principles of Islam?
> Islam has 5 principles, often called the 5 Pillars of Islam
> 1. Faith: There is no god but Allah, and Mohamet is his final messenger.
> 2. Prayer: 5 obligatory prayers per day. Dawn, noon, mid-afternoon, sunset and nightfall.
> 3. Alms: Muslims must make charitable donations to Muslims.
> 4. Fast: Muslims do not eat or drink from dawn to dusk in the month of Ramadan.
> 5. Pilgrimage: Every Muslim who is physically and financially able should make the journey to Mecca.
> 
> Muslims believe that the Koran is the word of God.
> They base their practices on the Koran, the Sunnah and the Hadith.
> The Sunnah is the way the Prophet lived his life.
> The Hadith collected sayings reputed to have been made by Mahomet
> 
> 
> 
> *it's great ? I cannot do better than you do....*                          Islam teaches that only Islam is unquestionably authentic, and thus all other religions are false.!!! *but do you know what is Islam really*
> 
> Non-muslims cannot give evidence against a Muslim in an Islamic court.*but they can to bring suit against Muslims , in a Muslim court , with a fair judge , in that time when christians all non-christians were considred as animals or possessions !!!!*
> 
> 
> 
> I am very happy we finally can discuss such subjects freely , and an time we will discuss other religions
Click to expand...


----------



## mahaz

Brioche said:
			
		

> In Muslim countries women are murdered because they have brought "shame" on their families. This is forbidden under Muslim law, but it still happens.


 
It doesnt happen in All Muslim countries, but in some tribal areas where where JIRGA system do exists. so, u cant relate it with Muslim Laws.


----------



## Chaska Ñawi

A couple of notes about the Middle East:

As Jacobo Timmerman pointed out when he left Argentina for Israel, from a genetic (and partly cultural) standpoint the conflict in that region was between SEMITES, not Jews and Muslims.  One could even make the argument that Arabic is the modern version of Hebrew (which went into mothballs for a few centuries until the State of Israel emerged).

Islam and Christianity, comparatively young religions, arose from a culture where Judaism was the prevalent, although not the only, religion.  In this culture you found elements which are still common to both religions, such as covering women's hair, the idea that you're unclean while menstruating or after childbirth, circumcision, certain dietary laws, etc.  Mohammed did not introduce these - they were already cultural norms.  Mohammed was well placed to hear a lot of stories and legends and traditions from the whole area, however; he obviously spent a lot of time pondering what he heard and trying to make connections between it.

As for the chador, the full black robe that also covers the face, several sources say that Mohammed was not in favour of this and that in fact the practice did not exist before his time.  His wives took to covering themselves completely; other women imitated their example; and it gradually became embedded in the culture by the choice of the women.  In fact, when the Shah of Iran decreed that women must no longer wear the chador, the women who'd grown up with it resisted the decree vigorously.  The western psychological equivalent would be to be told, in your 50's, that you were now to go out in public in your underwear only.

The sad thing is that now, in certain "fundamental" countries; women cannot choose whether or not they wish to wear a chador, drive a car, or stay in a hotel without the permission of their male relatives.  One man from Saudi Arabia was saying how insulting he found it that his widowed mother, who had taught him and supported him in every way, had to have his signed permission when she wished to stay in a hotel.


----------



## SpiceMan

Chaska Ñawi said:
			
		

> The western psychological equivalent would be to be told, in your 50's, that you were now to go out in public in your underwear only.


I like that comparision .

I'm atheistic, so forgive me for talking of "god" instead of God or Allah. To me, it's and it, a thing, and putting a leading capital makes as much sense to me as putting a leading capital in the word expresso.

Now that I've excused myself, to my point:
What we usually fail to see is, mostly, due to bad correlations. I'm no expert, but something that gave me a bit deeper understanding on some aspects of Islam is the status of the Koran. 

During early Christianity there were centuries of internal disputes among different christian factions. One of these issues was that of the status of Jesus: was he god? was he human? was he the son of god? how can god have a son? and a long etcetera.
Nowadays Christianity is a "relaxed" religion: people believe in Jesus, the 10 commandments, etc, etc.  However, not all believers follow the bible at 100% percent. The central "thing" in Christianity is Jesus. To compare the Bible to the Koran is usually a bad mistake.

Early Islam too had several dogmatic factions and political problems that lead to nowadays Islam (which is far from being united, just as Christianity). The Koran is the _exact_ word of god as Muhammad was told by angel Jibril (the same angel found in judaism and christianism: the voice of god, a.k.a. Gabriel) in ancient Arab language (the so-called Quranic Arab). As such, it raised a lot of questions: does god have a word? does it mean that it speaks? how can it have a voice if it isn't human? and -again- a long etcetera. Thus, the central "thing" in Islam is the book itself, not Muhammad.

Usually, Muhammad's role is confused with that of Jesus in Christianity, but to Muslims, both Jesus and Muhammad (and Abraham, Noah, etc) were prophet/messengers of the word of god and Muhammad is the last one (seal prophet). 

The important role Muhammad had (an still has) in Islam is undeniable, but the right comparision -in my humble opinion- is that the Koran is to Islam what Jesus is to Christianity. Thus, not following its message, or denying it even partially is just the same as talking to Jesus -moreover god- personally and refusing to do something he says is right.

/mildly-off-topic
This thread caught me right in the middle of a thick book I'm reading: "A History of the Arab Peoples" by Albert Hourani. The title itself says "a history", but it surely gives a better insight than reading a webpage. 
Also note that Arab is not the same as Muslim. But it also provides some insight on how Islam subgroups (chiefly Suuni and Shi'a) started drifting apart as early as 700 b.C., which is way longer than, say, Catholicism and Protestantism (perhaps comparable to Roman Catholicism and Orthodox Christianity discrepancies, although this is just a wild guess). It also has lots of good cultural background, etc. I really recommend this book.


----------



## Jhorer Brishti

Wow, this has grown into quite an interesting thread! I have last minute homework to do(yep, procrastinated until sunday. ) so I won't be able to write the long response I've been itching to on my views on the topic and on the events that have unfolded in the world today that are inextricably linked to the subject at hand.

  Laia, I do have a response for you however. Just to show again the diversity and plurality of Islamic cultures, in Bangladesh very few women wear _"burqhas/hijaabs_". They are most likely to be seen wearing _saris_ and _salwar kamises_. There is a growing trend now in taking up a religious scarf but that's only a response to the dismal conditions of the world today. I had posted this before but Bangladesh is the only country to have elected 3 woman prime ministers in a row(and the current prime minister is also a woman). Of course since the country is extremely poor, women do not have as much power as men(this is tangible even in the middle and upper classes though most of the people in this group are quite westernized) but seeing that the current prime minister is a woman it is easy to see that sometimes they are able to acquire power and in general are treated as human beings. In fact there's a worldwide yearly assessment of woman's rankings in the countries of the world and last year Bangladesh placed 39th which was .1 percent behind Japan and the score beat that of some developed countries like Italy and Greece.. So as you can see there are muslim countries where equality of the sexes is championed as best as a poverty-stricken and corrupted country can handle. I hope you don't think that this means the majority of the people are not religious because they are, and sometimes fervently..

  With regards to countries where the wearing of the _hijaab_ is mandatory, I forgot who and what her name was but there is a Moroccan woman who immigrated to the US and criticized American culture in how we degrade women much more so than the supposedly "oppressive backwater cesspools" of the middle east. No muslim woman has to worry about her waist size or about becoming anorexic to look beautiful for _men. _She doesn't have to brood over what dress to wear like an American woman who would not want to be overly modest while at the same time she wouldn't want to look meretricious(prostitute).Just enough to attract glances from men. The way some men describe women and see them only as sexual conquests in America definitely does not seem to me to be a very respectful way to consider them. Lastly, I think a veiled woman has considerable power and advantage over a man who she can see completely while the man is only able to see her eyes. He is not distracted from listening to what she has to say by her looks. In essence I think it commands respect since many men are distracted from considering a woman as a human being because of carnal desire which does not arise if the woman is veiled. 

  Just my views on the subject. I do not think it should be mandatory though but cultures are very different throughout the world and the women in those countries might actually prefer the law to be so..


----------



## Ana Raquel

borhane said:
			
		

> and women have never ever complain about that


 
who has told you that?


----------



## Kräuter_Fee

Well, I'd like to add my view. I am not a muslim but my boyfriend is and since I am a girl maybe my input could be interesting to you.
All I can tell you is that muslims (not only my boyfriend, but those I have met, which are quite a few) are not sexist at all in their behavior. I lived six months with my boyfriend and he cleans, cooks and does everything (and actually more than me). He is all for women rights and believe me, I wouldn't be with someone who didn't think this way.

I hate to hear that muslims are sexist and treat women in a bad way, for sure there are many like that, but tell me... isn't it this way all over the world? I mean... how do they treat women in India, China, Africa, or even in Spain, where in average three women are murdered by their husband/boyfriend/ex every week???


----------



## Laia

Jhorer Brishti said:
			
		

> Laia, I do have a response for you however. (...)


Thanks, Jhorer Brishti. This kind of info you provided is more or less what I wanted to read when I'd ask at the beginning of the thread.  



			
				Kräuter_Fee said:
			
		

> how do they treat women in India, China, Africa, or even in Spain, where in average three women are murdered by their husband/boyfriend/ex every week???


I think this is a shame.  




Actually, I don't know practically nothing about Islam. That's why I asked.

Anyway, my opinion about the "non-permission-to-show-the-body" remains the same. I cannot understand it.


----------



## maxiogee

Can women become religious leaders in Islam?


----------



## la reine victoria

Brioche said:
			
		

> I suppose it all depends on what you think "treated right" is!
> 
> In Muslim countries women are murdered because they have brought "shame" on their families. This is forbidden under Muslim law, but it still happens.


 
There have been several incidences in the UK, among the Muslim immigrant communities, of young daughters being murdered by the family for the 'sin' of having fallen in love with an English boy.


LRV


----------



## Kräuter_Fee

Laia said:
			
		

> Anyway, my opinion about the "non-permission-to-show-the-body" remains the same. I cannot understand it.


 
That is true but this depends on the interpretation that each person wants to make. Islamist women who don't show their bodies do it because it's their decision. Of course there must be husbands who don't allow them to wear mini-skirts (but I have friends who say that their boyfriends don't allow them to do that either). 
At least in theory, not showing the body is something that only the woman decides. If a woman wants to wear a headscarf... that's up to her. I don't think it's so terrible, Indian women also have a special way of dressing. As long as it is the woman who decides it's fine for me.


----------



## Laia

Kräuter_Fee said:
			
		

> That is true but this depends on the interpretation that each person wants to make. Islamist women who don't show their bodies do it because it's their decision. Of course there must be husbands who don't allow them to wear mini-skirts (but I have friends who say that their boyfriends don't allow them to do that either).
> At least in theory, not showing the body is something that only the woman decides. If a woman wants to wear a headscarf... that's up to her. I don't think it's so terrible, Indian women also have a special way of dressing. As long as it is the woman who decides it's fine for me.


 
Well, I was told that there are some contries where it is obligatory, and that if I wanted to travel to this places, they would force me to hide my hair and my legs. This would be an humiliation to me as a human being.

If you have friends that are not allowed to wear mini-skirts by their boyfriends, their boyfriends are ****.

My boyfriend must love me and must love my mini-skirts.


----------



## Kräuter_Fee

Laia said:
			
		

> Well, I was told that there are some contries where it is obligatory, and that if I wanted to travel to this places, they would force me to hide my hair and my legs.


That's true but that is not a characteristic of Islam. Islamic people who live in democracy aren't like that. I have many friends who are muslims (I met them through my boyfriend) and some of them are couples and girls wear sexy clothes sometimes. In countries where it is forbidden... well, I don't think you can say it is Islam's fault, it is fault of the tyrants who govern these countries.



> If you have friends that are not allowed to wear mini-skirts by their boyfriends, their boyfriends are ****.
> 
> My boyfriend must love me and must love my mini-skirts.


Exactly, I think the same way... but many women aren't like that... unfortunately.


----------



## Laia

Kräuter_Fee said:
			
		

> That's true but that is not a characteristic of Islam. Islamic people who live in democracy aren't like that. I have many friends who are muslims (I met them through my boyfriend) and some of them are couples and girls wear sexy clothes sometimes. In countries where it is forbidden... well, I don't think you can say it is Islam's fault, it is fault of the tyrants who govern these countries.


 
Ok. This is the kind of info I was looking for when I asked about how women is seen by Islam.


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## Stefanie1976

QUOTE: Well, I was told that there are some contries where it is obligatory, and that if I wanted to travel to this places, they would force me to hide my hair and my legs. This would be an humiliation to me as a human being.

To me it is a matter of respect when travelling to foreign countries to accept the customs. If that requires me to cover my hair and not show skin, I would gladly obey and not feel humiliated. If I felt humiliated, I would simply not go...


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## cuchuflete

*Mod note:*  Please remember, this thread is supposed to elicit *information *about Islamic Culture and Religion, and not debate its merits, or how much one may agree or disagree with it.

If you have passionate ideas you wish to share, please open a new thread and we can debate the relative 'goodness' or 'badness' of some aspect of the culture or religion.

Thanks,
Cuchuflete


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## Laia

Stefanie1976 said:
			
		

> To me it is a matter of respect when travelling to foreign countries to accept the customs. If that requires me to cover my hair and not show skin, I would gladly obey and not feel humiliated. If I felt humiliated, I would simply not go...


 


			
				Chaska Ñawi said:
			
		

> The sad thing is that now, in certain "fundamental" countries; women cannot choose whether or not they wish to wear a chador, drive a car, or stay in a hotel without the permission of their male relatives. One man from Saudi Arabia was saying how insulting he found it that his widowed mother, who had taught him and supported him in every way, had to have his signed permission when she wished to stay in a hotel.


 
If you were not allowed to choose whether or not to wear a chador, drive a car, or stay in a hotel without the permission of your male relatives... wouldn't you be humiliated as a human being?
I know that this is not a general thing that happens but a thing that happens in certain "fundamental" countries.



			
				Kräuter_Fee said:
			
		

> At least in theory, not showing the body is something that only the woman decides. If a woman wants to wear a headscarf... that's up to her. I don't think it's so terrible, Indian women also have a special way of dressing. *As long as it is the woman who decides it's fine for me*.


Definitely, I agree with "As long as it is the woman who decides it's fine for me".


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## Devoted-Deserter

Salam and Hi all,
Thanks willy for this intrusting thread.
I think that it is high time to answer your questions.
 
There are two aspects of Islam you should know. 
Belief (Faith):
Believe in the supremacy of Allah’s power.
Believe in the angles.
Believe in the judgement day.
Believe in all the prophets of Allah, Mohammed, Jesus, David, Moses…etc and believe they are all equal.
 
Worship (Practice):
1 - Testimony of Faith: This is simply the declaration, "I bear witness that there is no deity but Allah, and I bear witness that Muhammad is His servant and messenger."
2 - Prayer:  It is mankind's connection to Allah through which one gathers strength, guidance and peace of mind
3 – Fasting: I think you all know what Ramadan is about.
4 – Almsgiving: Every Muslim, whose financial conditions are above a certain specified minimum, must pay annually at least 2.5% of his savings to a deserving needy person, a new convert to Islam, a traveller, or one overwhelmed by debts.
5 – *Pilgrimage: I think you all know what it is about. *
 
_What do Muslims think about people with other beliefs?
_Simply: They have same rights that Muslims have.
_
Is there such a thing as Muslim values?_
Of course; help the one in need. Defend the weak. Say the truth. Spread love, the prophet (BPUH) said that a smile is considered as charity “almsgiving”. _

How do they feel about issues such as murder, suicide, war and abusing the weak?
_Killing by all it’s kind is considered as the third deadly sin.
_
Do Muslim embrace some Western values, do they reject others?
_I need first to know about what values you are speaking? Just tell which ones?
_Is Science and secularism incompatible with Muslim faith?_
Definitely not, there are many verses in Koran that reported scientific truths before men discover them. The first verse of Koran that has been revealed to the prophet ordered him to learn.
Secularism in Islam: As I previously said, Muslims pay almsgiving, whereas non-Muslims do not. There were actually many non-Muslims living with the Prophet freely to worship or not (Freedom of belief). But they have to pay a tax so Muslims guarantee their security.
 
Law and religion: In Islam, the one who rule has to be a Muslim. But since the early dawn of the Islamic civilization, the juridic power was separated from the ruling power, jurisprudence was completely free. 
We believe that women are equal to men, and humans in general are also equal despite their origins and their sex. 
 
Laia, if you find a pearl what will you do with it, expose it to the world or keep it beyond the world eyes? 
Women hair can be charming and attractive and this is why they have to hide it. Please think a second about this statement, a priori it seems unequal but a posteriori what is the point behind showing ones charm?
Seduction?! Do you think that a married woman shall charm another man? Turning on someone else? Make someone jealous? Do not all this come from our ego?
 
If I were to cover every little detail about Islam I would spend the whole day and still be missing some important points.
 
Sincerely yours,


----------



## maxiogee

You say that women are equal to men. There appear to be those in Islam who do not believe so - the Taliban notedly sent working women to stay at home, leaving schools and hospitals understaffed, we were led to believe.

Can a woman not be just a woman? Must she always be seen as "a pearl" - possessed by someone? The pearl is not the equal of its owner!

Must a woman unveiled always be perceived to be "showing her charm"? Islam does not appear to concern itself with men showing their charm - do that not have any? Are there no dangers there?


----------



## Descriptive_G

There are different dress codes for women in many societies not just Muslim ones. I can see a man's chest on TV but not women's unless it's a documentary about a tribal society.

And not all Western societies are equally tolerant of topless beaches and whatnot so I imagine Muslim societies are varied as well. But since I don't live in a Muslim country I would like to, if that's okay, ask that question. Is the veil optional in some Muslim countries? Are dresscodes for women the same in all Muslim countries?


----------



## Laia

Devoted Deserter said:
			
		

> Laia, if you find a pearl what will you do with it, expose it to the world or keep it beyond the world eyes?
> Women hair can be charming and attractive and this is why they have to hide it. Please think a second about this statement, a priori it seems unequal but a posteriori what is the point behind showing ones charm?
> Seduction?! Do you think that a married woman shall charm another man? Turning on someone else? Make someone jealous? Do not all this come from our ego


My pearls are mine, not from my husband or someone else. If a man who is not my boyfriend or husband likes my hair, it's his problem, not mine. C'mon! 
Married woman? A married woman is a person, not a possession of her husband. She can do whatever she wants. She can show all her charm, of course. Other men can look, but cannot touch. It's so simple, isn't it?
Anyway, what if I don't want to marry? This option is not considered!



			
				maxiogee said:
			
		

> Can a woman not be just a woman? Must she always be seen as "a pearl" - possessed by someone? The pearl is not the equal of its owner!
> 
> Must a woman unveiled always be perceived to be "showing her charm"? Islam does not appear to concern itself with men showing their charm - do that not have any? Are there no dangers there?


 
Exactly, Maxiogee... I couldn't explain better this point.
I would find great the issue of hiding hair if men also hide it. Men's hair is extremely sexy. Why they don't show it just to their wife or mother or sister??? What about the men's pearl?? They also turn me on!


----------



## Heba

maxiogee said:
			
		

> Can women become religious leaders in Islam?


Yes, there are, especially in Egypt.


----------



## Heba

la reine victoria said:
			
		

> There have been several incidences in the UK, among the Muslim immigrant communities, of young daughters being murdered by the family for the 'sin' of having fallen in love with an English boy.
> 
> 
> LRV


 
The sin is having sex without marriage (according to my christian friends, it is also a sin in christianity). Murduring such sinneres is not the rule in all Muslim countries. Yes, it is unanimously agreed that women and men who committ adultry are shameful, but they are not always killed by their families- it depends on the culture which differes from one Muslim country to the other, and even from one startum to the other within the same country. A famous incident has teken place here in Egypt about a year and a half ago. A female dress-designer had a secret relationship with a young actor and the result was that she became pregnant and tried to make him acknowlege the baby (I do not know if this is linguistically correct, please correct me if I made a linguistic mistake); she asked him to acknowledge that he was the parent but her refused, because he suspected that the baby was not his. This led her to bring the relationship to light. I do not need to tell the rest of the story because it is off-topic, I only want to say that both were not punished for the sin. Perhaps in a different social stratum, the attitude of their parents would be different. The majority would keep silent so that nobody knows about this (because it is a scandal in Egypt from the moral aspect). Religious people would let their sons and daughters get punished (men and women are equal in Islam- so, just like women, men should be equally punished), while those who follow old customs and traditions (not religion) would murder their daughters in particular. 

By the way, the punishment for having sex without marriage for the umarried in Islam is being whiped 100 times (it is not followed by the Egyptian Law though, because not all Egyptian are Muslims. Each religious group has the freedom to follow the rule of its religion).

You can imagine the Muslim society (at least Egypt) to be as morally conservative and religious as a 16th or 17th century England (I am talking about England because the English culture and literature is the only European model I studdied, actually that is my major in college). In the 19th century novel, the ''the fallen woman'' who features in so much fiction of the period was invariably seen to be punished. . In these novels, fallen women were usually brought to dramatic death (like Lady Dedlock in Dickens' Bleak House) or banished (like Little Emily in David Copperfield) or exposed to stratingly retributive suffering ( as in Mrs Henry Wood's East Lynne).

One last thing I want to add is that equalling Islam to the Arabic culture (one of the achievements of the 19th-century-Orientalism) with all the latter's long surviving bad habbits is wrong. Unfortunately, most people believe in it. I hope this changes


----------



## Devoted-Deserter

Hi all;
I do not know what Taliban think about women, and I do not really want to. I am talking about how women are seen in Islam and not how Islamic countries do.
I think there is a misunderstanding, because my aim was not to say that a wife is the possession of her husband, I have just made a metaphor; I intended to say that they are so precious just like pearls. 
The veil is not optional in Islam, it is mandatory. But it is not the case in Islamic countries. If you meant to ask: are they obliged to cover their heads in all Islamic countries. Then the answer is no.
When it comes to showing ones charm, it is applicable to men too, because the aim of doing so is temptation. In my opinion, the question is; why to show it?
When you say it I not your problem, I feel like you took it too personal, like it if it was an order coming from someone. In Islam we believe that it is your problem to turn someone on; you hide your body to obey god not people!
Beside that, a woman is woman and is treated like a person; she has rights and duty just like the man has. 
Even if a woman wears the veil, she still can communicate. Not having physical contact with strangers is a less superficial life in my point of view.
Sincerely yours;


----------



## cirrus

In London there are probably more practising Muslims than there are practising Christians so basics like the pillars of Islam are not news for me.  

However I do have a question about fatwahs and would like to know more about them so I can get some more insight and understanding.  Does anybody here know what is the process for deciding to issue a fatwah, what authority allows a fatwah to be issued?  Do fatwahs from different countries eg Indonesia  or Nigeria be valid in Tanzania or Saudi Arabia?


----------



## cherine

In a matter of principle -and principles are not always respected- a fatwa is only to be issued by a aalim عالم (scholar, or more precisely a scholar of Islamic law), which means a person with much knowledge about the religion, the rules of deducing a fatwa (which is a religious opinion about a given situation) beside knowledge of the situation itself.
If the question or the issue concerns a domain that this scholar doesn't know about, he has to ask specialists.
I'll give an example : There were questions about the legality (i.e. religious legality) of the in-vitro pregnancy (sorry not sure how to say it in English).... The ulamaa' (or ulema) referred to physicians to ask them about the details of these procedures so they can determine if they're legally accepted or not (again, legally from the point of view of Islam's law).
Thus they decided that, as long as the sperm and the ovum belong to a married couple, this conception is legal, otherwise the infant would be considered an illegal child.
And so on, same goes with any other field : economy, medicine....

As for your last question : yes, there's no reason why a fatwa by a Malysian scholar won't be followed by a Morrocan muslim (I chose these 2 nationalities randomley, more like : from the furthest point east to the furthest west) as long as they learn about it, and that the "issuer" of the fatwa is a credible scholar.


----------



## mansio

There are also fatwas issued by Shias that Sunnis will probably not follow.

I am wondering if Khomeyni's notorious fatwa against Rushdee could have been followed by Sunni Muslims ?


----------



## cherine

Yes, I don't think Siites and Sunnis follow each other's fatwas, mainly because each "group" has its own scholars and also because of the differences between the two doctrines.


----------



## gingerale

. 
"The veil is not optional in Islam, it is mandatory. "
 
 
Well, I felt obliged to write about this topic, being from TURKEY, -THE ONLY SECULAR COUNTRY with mostly muslum people, thanks to our great leader and hero ATATURK-
 
First of all, all religions are about interpretations, they are not sciences, there is no proof to them, they are ONLY matter of beliefs, if God really wanted us to be all the same way, I think he could do better than this..
 
 
Turkish interpretation of Islam is very modern, women do not have to cover their head, (those who are into arabic interpretation of Islam are trying really hard to go in universities covering their heads, but the government is very stricly forbidding to cover head in any government building or education center) simply because unlike the interpretation of other Islamic countries, we think the KORAN does not say women have to cover their head, it says, women and men have to cover their PRIVATE PARTS.. Hair is not very privite, so are not the LEGS.. It is interpreted as sexual parts in Turkey, so women wear bikinis, mini skirts, or any kind of dress they'd like and be great muslims at the same time.
 
I think right now the only problemof Islam is it is 600 years younger than Christianity and so it would be very instructive to take a look at how cristianity was 600 years ago.. 
 
 
I personally believe that all religions serve men and always opress women, I am a muslum woman though not religious at all, and married to a Catholic American(he calls himself as former catholic, because belives that his catholisism has died with the pope John Paul)who is not very religious as well, i get a good taste of both cristianity and islam and sometimes with the backwards minded people in both religions i can not even tell which one is which!!!!


----------



## gingerale

WillyLandron said:
			
		

> What are the basic principles of Islam?
> 
> Who are Muslims in the world today? Muslums are people who believe in Islam. None of the muslum countries except for Turkey have secularity, and all the answers to the questions of western world are about Islam are kept in the key word SECULARITY. Turkey is a democratic, secular republic, adopts a very modern interpretation of Islam. Religion is a concern of people, and government has nothing to do with it, except block the bacward minded people, who would like to turn it into an Islamic republic and try to go to universities wearing headscarves..
> 
> Where do they live? Well, I can not really answer this question, Turk are nomadic to start with, from nort pole to south you can come across with one anywhere!! =)
> 
> What do Muslims think about people with other beliefs? Turkish people strongly respect other cultures and beliefs because we have been living with various cultures since the Ottoman Empire, which also was secular for its time, although nothing like Turkish republic today
> 
> Is there such a thing as Muslim values? To me for example, Koran is holy and you should be respectful holding it or keeping it, bread is also considered to be of high value, one should always think about those who can not find it and respect and appreciate it.. Of course these are the simple ones that just occured to me as i write..
> 
> How do they feel about issues such as murder, suicide, war and abusing the weak?  Just like in Cristianity and other religions, the aim is to be a good and useful person. Mohammed says you should turn right side of your face even if somebody slaps you in the left side. well, can be argued how well it is obeyed!! Religion can not make you a better or worse person, your actions do. Killing can never be concidered as a good behaviour for whatever the reason, other than PROTECTING your country. Suicide is not good, 'giveth the god taketh the god' situation.. Abusing the weak is maybe one of the worst things you can do in any religion as far as I know, yet must be the sweetest sin UNFORTUNATELY
> 
> Do Muslim embrace some Western values, do they reject others?  What is a western value, you need to be specific on that, but Islam ( I am talking on my countries behalf) embraces ALL UNIVERSAL HUMAN VALUES.
> 
> Is Science and secularism incompatible with Muslim faith?


Secularism isn't. Actually Turkey is chosen to be the country where Islam is best applied. Science and religion do not go together to me, not only Islam but we know that there are people in the US trying to remove Darwin theory from school cirriculum and teach ADAM AND EVE!! yet, if you ask the Islam proffessors in Turkey, they would say science and Islam go well together. 



BY the way, it is very wierd for me to be kind of defending Islam here, because I am not a religious person at all, to me all religions are the same.. but I only wanted to give some info on my country's behalf after reading all those posts with very oppressive attidudes and those with great prejudgement.


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## mansio

Gingerale

You are right, the Quran does not say that women have to cover their hair. It says they have to cover their breasts. Mentioning the breasts means that private parts have to be covered, which is the rule the world over.

The problem is Muslims do not follow only the Quran but also the Sunna and Hadith in which the Prophet develops the teachings of the Quran. The Sunna says all the body of women has to be covered except the face and the hands.


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## annettehola

"Why should it be incumbent upon the woman to hide attributes that might attract the male gaze rather than upon the man to avert his gaze?"

- asks Timpeac. 

That is a question on the essence of a religion because it is a question on its values and interpretations thereof. It is about other things. "We" in "the West" have "our" values that make up our standards and is at the base of what and how we think. In Muslim countries these values are different. In Denmark there are Danes that think and say that Islam suppresses women. And there are Muslims that publically say things like:"If Danish women are sometimes raped, then it's certainly their own fault taken the way they dress into consideration." Two ways, two views. Two cultures. I believe the world to be what I see. I believe the way I see is the way I learned to see. And some people do question their own view and so opinions at times, others do not. For them tradition is more important. I want to say, Timpeac, that "we in the West" have learned to ask questions. It is part of who and what we are. I, for one, do not follow a strict religious regime. I don't want it in my personal life. I do pray; though. But I would never wear a shawl because a religious doctrine told me to do so. I would question the doctrine, not just accept it. Muslims are different in this. They do what the doctrine says and will not accept any violations of its rules, let alone exceptions to it. I would like to ask: Is Islam willing to discuss itself? I don't think it's enough to state what Islam says. I want to know why.

Thanks,

Annette


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## Ana Raquel

Hi


			
				annettehola said:
			
		

> : Is Islam willing to discuss itself? I don't think it's enough to state what Islam says. I want to know why.


I supposse it depends where. There was an islamic feminist congress in Spain last year, with participants from  Iran, Malaysia, EEUU, Indonesia, Pakistan, Mali, Canada, Morrocco. 
I don't think it could be possible to take it place in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan or Iran.


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## annettehola

What insists on secrecy is either afraid of the light or its enemy.

Annette


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## mansio

At the root of "oppression" of women by men there is the unconscious male fear of female sexuality. 
That explains why women and not men have to be  limited in their movements and be secluded either by walls or by a veil.


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## annettehola

No, it does not explain anything. Instead of explaining, it hides away what it cannot explain. That is the opposite to explaining in my view.

Annette


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## mansio

Annette

If you have another explanation feel free to express it.


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## annettehola

I did just that. But now a little more explanation: I think the reasons you mentioned for the veil are correct. That might be at the root of the veil. But I also think tradition for the women who wear it is so strong on them that they forgot how to ask questions. If they did, they would have to admit the reason you just mentioned, and I think this scares them. I also think it's part of a social situation which is strongly dominated by traditions no one seems to question. And lack of education other than a religious one.

Annette

Edit: I would like to add, that those who wear a veil, to me, not are much more different than those who prefer a cap or a sombrero. I respect them all. But I understand the caps and the sombreros better than the veils.


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## reaLest

Egypt, formerly known as Kemet (black land) is in Africa. Egypt has always been in Africa. Egypt is an African country. Do not take Egypt out of Africa. 

 Please continue with your discussion...this is very interesting.


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## mansio

This thread is about Islamic culture and religion. I think the post about Egypt is in the wrong thread.


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## reaLest

mansio said:
			
		

> This thread is about Islamic culture and religion. I think the post about Egypt is in the wrong thread.



This thread is old....or there are many posts in this thread...My comment was regarding (earlier) posts on the first page.


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## cherine

It's true there was talking in the very begining of this thread about Egypt's "identity" (i.e. muslim, middle-eastern...), but I still think that you maybe -just maybe- should've posted your comment in this thread.


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