# álogon = "horse" & "irrational"?



## Forero

I have heard that the ancient Greek _híppos_ for "horse" has been supplanted by modern Greek _álogon_.

1. Is _álogon_ the usual Greek word for "horse"?
2. Is this the word for "irrational", or just a look-alike?
3. Do Greeks view horses as irrational? 
4. Would a person ever be compared to a "horse" if the person is behaving irrationally?

Just curious.


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## ireney

Hello Forero,

let's see,
In modern Greek we've "lost" the final "n" so it's "alogo" (άλογο). It does mean "horse" and it is indeed the same word that in ancient Greek meant "irrational". Note however that it also meant "without logic/reason" as well as "irrational" which carries overtones of craziness, of something contrary to logic, reason.  The original meaning has survived only as an adjective but carries the meaning of "thoughtless" more than "irrational";  "Άλογη χρήση X" for instance means "thoughtless use of X" . The modern Greek term for "irrational" is "παράλογο" (paralogo).
The usage of the word "alogo" for horses comes from the expression " ζώον άλογον", "irrational animal". I'm not entirely sure how or why it came to mean a specific animal, namely the horse, as opposed to including all animals that do not have the ability to reason (quite a few humans included  ) but I can look it up.
As far as I know no one thinks that horses are more irrational than other animals. Most Greeks don't even make the connection I think (you know, a horse is an "άλογο" and that's that). Therefore no irrational person would be called a "horse".

I hope I covered everything


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## Forero

Thank you, Ireney.

I think you covered everything, but I still have follow-up questions.

Would you say then that "ζώον άλογον" means something more like "dumb beast" than "irrational creature"?

And if a person is thoughtless or unreasonable, might they be called άλογοs/άλογη?

Would an irrational number (such as the square root of 3) be called "enas arithmós parálogos"?

If you have a way to look up why the horse was singled out, please do, and let me know.

Thanks again.


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## apmoy70

Forero said:


> I have heard that the ancient Greek _híppos_ for "horse" has been supplanted by modern Greek _álogon_.
> 
> 1. Is _álogon_ the usual Greek word for "horse"?
> 2. Is this the word for "irrational", or just a look-alike?
> 3. Do Greeks view horses as irrational?
> 4. Would a person ever be compared to a "horse" if the person is behaving irrationally?
> 
> Just curious.


1.Indeed, the word ἵππος (hippos) has been supplanded by the medieval one ἄλογον (or άλογο in modern Greek). In the Byzantine times, animals were regarded as irrational (ἄλογον ζῶον), as creatures with an irrational soul (contrary to men) under a strong Christian influence. The adjective ἄλογος was commonly used to describe animals. I have in mind John Damascene (a 7th century Bishop of the Church), who writes:
"Ὁ μὲν ἄνθρωπος λογικός ἐστιν, ὁ δὲ βοῦς ἄλογος".
Or John Chrysostom (a 4th century Bishop):
"Ὁ μὲν ἄλογος ἵππος ἔπεσεν, ὁ δὲ λογικὸς ἄνθρωπος ἐξέπεσεν". 
Due to the fact that man used horses all the time (in agriculture, in war, in transportation), the adjective ἄλογος prevailed over the noun* only for horses, which in turn became a noun. Ὁ ἄλογος ἵππος-->ὁ ἄλογος-->τὸ ἄλογον-->το άλογο (modern Greek).
However, in order to form compound words, we use the ancient ἵππος. We say ιπποδρομία for the horce-race and not αλογοδρομία, or ιπποκόμος for the stable-boy and not αλογοκόμος.  
2.Yes it is, though not used colloquially in every day speech. We'll instead say παράλογος. However if you want to talk about the Pythagorian view of the animal soul for instance, you'll describe it as άλογος.
3.Not just horses, every animal. They're irrational, you cannot carry on a conversation with your dog (can you?) 
4.No. As an animal in general, yes.

*This is not a rare phenomenon in Greek. 
e.g. the adjective which describes fresh water, in medieval times, prevailed over the noun. In the streets of Constantinople during summertime, the water-carrier (the man who carried water in waterskin), used to shout to attract attention: "Ὕδωρ νεαρόν!" (Fresh Water!). In time, τὸ νεαρόν ὕδωρ-->τὸ νεαρόν-->τὸ νερόν-->το νερό (modern Greek).

Hope that helps.

_Edit:_ Just saw your question: "Would you say then that "ζώον άλογον" means something more like "dumb beast" than "irrational creature"?
Yes, isn't the irrational animal (the creature/animal that lacks reason) a dumb beast?


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## Forero

Thank you, Apmoy70.

I believe I have seen English language documents from a few centuries ago that said things like "he allowed his beast to wander into the market" (beast = "horse or cow"), so what you say is certainly believable.

The problem with _irrational_ in English is that it usually refers to thinking and behavior disconnected from reality/purpose. A horse is not normally irrational.


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## apmoy70

Forero said:


> Thank you, Apmoy70.
> 
> I believe I have seen English language documents from a few centuries ago that said things like "he allowed his beast to wander into the market" (beast = "horse or cow"), so what you say is certainly believable.
> 
> The problem with _irrational_ in English is that it usually refers to thinking and behavior disconnected from reality/purpose. A horse is not normally irrational.


You're welcome.
I see what you mean. In Greek λόγος (logos) means both logic, reason and speech, thought. Therefore it makes sence for a Greek to call an ἵππος irrational (dumb could be the English equivalent, I guess).


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## antimatter

ireney said:


> Hello Forero,
> 
> I'm not entirely sure how or why it came to mean a specific animal, namely the horse, as opposed to including all animals that do not have the ability to reason (quite a few humans included  ) but I can look it up.
> 
> I hope I covered everything



Hello everybody,
I'm new to the forum, yet I'd like to add my comment because a long time ago, I heard an explanation about this, which I now find to be relative. However, please note that this is not cross-checked!

As "λόγος" also means "speech", I had heard that horse is that kind of animal, which is so clever as the humans, and the only thing it misses is the speech...
So α + λόγος (=the one who doesn' t possess, let's say, speech) -> άλογο.

i have to check and find out whether this is true.


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## cougr

"The problem with _irrational_ in English is that it usually refers to thinking and behavior disconnected from reality/purpose. A horse is not normally irrational."{Quote ,Forero } .

I fully agree but it's interesting as to why the term 'crazy' is commonly paired with the word horse, in the English language.


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## antimatter

cougr said:


> "The problem with _irrational_ in English is that it usually refers to thinking and behavior disconnected from reality/purpose. A horse is not normally irrational."{Quote ,Forero } .
> 
> I fully agree but it's interesting as to why the term 'crazy' is commonly paired with the word horse, in the English language.


 
Dear cougr,
please have a look here (well I'm not allowed to post the link but here's the text I wanted you to see)

_*ΑΛΟΓΑ*_
_HORSES_
_*Άλογο….. ον λογικό και άλογο (άφωνο) το τόσο έξυπνο ζώο που μόνο ο λόγος (η φωνή, η ομιλία) του λείπει.*_
_A creature rational and speechless (it's like a play on words) this very clever animal, which the only thing that lacks, is the speech._

Of course this is not scientifically documented, but it is said to be this way

As for irrational, Ireney explained it perfectly at her initial post so please refer to it.


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## x99sol

apmoy70 said:


> "Ὁ μὲν ἄλογος ἵππος ἔπεσεν, ὁ δὲ λογικὸς ἄνθρωπος ἐξέπεσεν".
> Due to the fact that man used horses all the time (in agriculture, in war, in transportation), the adjective ἄλογος prevailed over the noun* only for horses, which in turn became a noun. Ὁ ἄλογος ἵππος-->ὁ ἄλογος-->τὸ ἄλογον-->το άλογο (modern Greek).
> However, in order to form compound words, we use the ancient ἵππος. We say ιπποδρομία for the horce-race and not αλογοδρομία, or ιπποκόμος for the stable-boy and not αλογοκόμος.
> 2.Yes it is, though not used colloquially in every day speech. We'll instead say παράλογος. However if you want to talk about the Pythagorian view of the animal soul for instance, you'll describe it as άλογος.




As stated and above there is the άλογο noun  also called ίππος 
and there is the adjective ο άλογος ή άλογη το άλογο = irrational
 it is not used very often as most use indeed παράλογος but it can be used if you like the word, it is a known word of modern greek and also it can have a slight variation in meaning 
as _άλογος  που δεν έχει ή δε συμφωνεί με τη λογική_ _λεξ *ΕΜΜ.ΚΡΙΑΡΑ*_
means does not have or agree with reason  
while _παράλογος που δεν συμφωνεί με την κοινή λογική_ _λεξ *ΕΜΜ.ΚΡΙΑΡΑ
*_means does not not agree with common sense/ reason
but i don't think anyone could say a fish as παράλογο ψάρι  and the correct adjective is άλογο ψάρι cause fish do not have reason in the first place


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## Forero

So is an irrational number "parálogos arithmós"?


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## ireney

No, since "irrational" in this case referes to "ratio". At least I think it does. Anyway, the Greek term is "άρρητος". 

And, putting on my mod hat, any further discussion of this should be conducted in a different thread


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## Forero

I think I understand now.

Thanks, everyone. Eukharistó polý.


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