# Imperative that has contrary meaning



## 810senior

Hello, everyone.
Sometimes we would say contrary things to someone even though we never want him or her to do that way, mostly as imperative of the verb.

The example is given:
*ほざいてろ* _hozaitero _= hozai-(original form:_hozaku_ meaning prattle, grumble, chatter...) -tero(continuous aspect:-being)
trans. be prattling!

Its literal meaning is _be prattling!_ but what we really want him or her is to not be prattling in a bothersome way. Its real meaning is _I don't give a sxxt_, _shxt up_, _you talk too much!_ and so on.
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I have other examples, too:
ふざけろ, ふざけてろ _fuzakero_, _fuzaketero _: trans. make fun of me, fool around(inf. fuzakeru=to fool around) real meaning: don't be kidding!!
抜かしてろ _nukashitero _: trans. speak out as you want (inf. nukasu=to omit, to speak[vulgar]) real meaning: shxt up!!!
うそつけ usotsuke : trans. tell a lie (acc. n. uso= a lie, inf. tuku=to tell) real meaning:don't lie!!

I suppose these awkward expressions exist only in Japanese. (I've never heard of them in other language...)
Do you have similar expression like above in your language? 

Thank you, in advance!


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## Rallino

It's not exactly the same, but in *Turkish*, you can use the imperative mood, and you usually double it, to hint a threat.

*Konuş konuş*…  _*- *_lit. _Speak, speak… 
_
The meaning, here, is: _Yeah, just keep on speaking and see what's going to happen._


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## ger4

Actually, in German we have some similar (slightly sarcastic) expressions, often introduced by '_ja, ja..._' (~ 'yeah, right...')


> *ほざいてろ hozaitero = hozai-(original form:hozaku meaning prattle, grumble, chatter...) -tero(continuous aspect:-being)
> trans. be prattling!*


~ _Ja, ja, mecker/quassel mal schön weiter..._ (~ 'yeah right, just carry on moaning/babbling' [something like that])


> ふざけろ, ふざけてろ _fuzakero, fuzaketero : trans. make fun of me, fool around(inf. fuzakeru=to fool around) real meaning: don't be kidding!!_


_~ Ja, ja, mach du mal Witze..._ (~ 'yeah right, just carry on joking')


> 抜かしてろ _nukashitero : trans. speak out as you want (inf. nukasu=to omit, to speak[vulgar]) real meaning: shxt up!!!_


_~ Sag doch, was du willst..._ ('just say whatever you want to say..' [I'm not listening anyway])

Very often (at least in German) these phrases express something like 'whatever you do, I can't be bothered'... Perhaps they don't really correspond to the Japanese examples you gave but it's always difficult to 'translate' idiomatic phrases anyway - difficult but interesting!


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## ThomasK

Isn't sarcastic irony? I'd think the meaning it gets is more perlocutionary. This imperative does not imply irony in all cases - or does it? _('Perlocutionary' would mean something like: the meaning is triggered by contextual factors, like intonation, specific circumstances, etc.) _


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## ger4

ThomasK said:


> Isn't sarcastic irony? I'd think the meaning it gets is more perlocutionary. This imperative does not imply irony in all cases - or does it? _('Perlocutionary' would mean something like: the meaning is triggered by contextual factors, like intonation, specific circumstances, etc.) _


In German it depends very much on contextual factors (finally I've learned a new expression now: _perlocutionary_...). In other contexts, some of these examples could be understood as imperatives (the grammatical form of the verb doesn't provide a clue); then again, there are some verbs we wouldn't normally use in the imperative (the verb _quasseln ~ _'to babble', 'to prattle', for instance): _'Quasseln Sie bitte weiter!'_ - 'Please carry on babbling/prattling!' would definitely sound ironic... It would be interesting to find out about Japanese in this context: are there special verbs or verb forms associated with irony?...


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## ThomasK

The irony can indeed be triggered by certain verbs (_kletsen _in Dutch for example, an equivalent of _klatschen _in German), but even when we use _praten _with this '... maar verder', we have the same effect. But we can attain that effect with an indicative sentence:_ Je mag gerust verder praten (You can just go on talking). _I think the adverb is the main aspect here but without the context it would not be ironical. ('Perlocutionary' is based John L. Austin's _How To Do Things With Words_)


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## Encolpius

Just like German or Slavic languages we use a lot of modal particles (those short funny word Romance languages lack) in Hungarian to express funny feelings, so after reading the German comment I think we have something similar as well. But too bad I don't speak and feel Japanese what those sentences really....
I'd use the particle "csak" in that situation. (csak usually means only, just)

1. Dumálj csak! Dumálj csak nyugodtan! 2. Viccelődj csak (nyugodtan)! 3. Hazudj csak (nyugodtan)! etc....


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## 810senior

i'm sorry for that. I think the explanation above might be not enough... 
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We don't use any modal particles or auxiliary verbs for these phrases. I think that point is the difference from other languages. (such as German, Dutch, and so on.)
We can simply say this only with its imperative mood. e.g. ふざけろ(fuzakero:fool around), ほざけ(hozakerattle [it]), 抜かせ(nukase:say [it] out), うそつけ(uso tsuke:tell a lie)

I'd like to know if there is *a verb in imperative mood* that could have its meaning opposite to its real meaning in any language.
For example, ふざけろ means _fool around!_, but can also mean _don't fool around! _(it's perfectly opposite if compared to original meaning, isn't it?)

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Thanks, ThomasK! I heard the term _Perlocutionary _for the first time. (I'll take a note of it )
I'm so delighted that I could find the same phenomenon in other languages.

But above Japanese expressions are rarely used as original meaning, even on any context, under any circumstance, but used as ironic meaning. (When someone said hozake[say out!] to you, it entirely means _don't say it out, shxt up_)

Is your language the same as in Japanese, too?


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## ThomasK

But then, I suppose that is an idiom. The point is: can you perform the same 'trick' with other imperatives? the examples that have been mentioned up to now, refer to speaking. But can you do it with verbs of doing things? I think I can safely say that it is possible in IE languages...


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## 810senior

ThomasK said:


> But then, I suppose that is an idiom. The point is: can you perform the same 'trick' with other imperatives? the examples that have been mentioned up to now, refer to speaking. But can you do it with verbs of doing things? I think I can safely say that it is possible in IE languages...




No, that's above all I've heard ever... I suppose that might be exact as you said.
We don't use other general verbs(such as eat, go, swim, count, etc.) that way.


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## ThomasK

Yet, I could imagine teasing someone ironically (sarcastically, ...) by just challenging him/ her not to do what you are saying but implying that it won't bother you, hurt you, etc. Isn't that universal? (Like: _'Oh, yes, boy/ girl, you're so clever !_', etc.


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## 810senior

I suppose these ironic expressions exist in any languages. In Japanese, I can say the sentence you wrote this way:やあ、きみって、冴えるんだね_yaa kimitte saerundane_
Its literal meaning is "yeah, you're kind of clever, aren't you?" but it can also be the sarcasm to someone, of course, under the certain circumstance.

--
I'd like to know more example that imperatives can take the opposite meaning in regard with its original one.
(to my surprise, such expressions like _fuzakero and_ _hozake _etc are generally considered ironic, sarcastic...)


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## bibax

Encolpius said:


> ...
> I'd use the particle "csak" in that situation. (csak usually means only, just)
> 
> 1. Dumálj csak! Dumálj csak nyugodtan! 2. Viccelődj csak (nyugodtan)! 3. Hazudj csak (nyugodtan)! etc....


In Czech we use the adverb *hlavně* (mainly, especially, particularly, above all).

E.g. parents to their disobedient child:

Hlavně se umaž! = ... get dirty!
Hlavně strkej ruku do lví klece! = ... stick your hand in the lion's cage!
Hlavně lez na stromy! = ... climb up the trees!
etc.


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## ThomasK

I have just been wondering about 810senior's observation that there is only _fuzakero _and _hozake _that are considered ironic, sarcastic. What I notice is that irony in our language is signalled by the choice of verbs in some cases. When we use archaic verbs for example that might imply that irony is involved, etc. But I think the list of imperatives that can be used in this way is about endless. It must be about an activity but otherwise... 

Maybe it works differently in Japanese...


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## 810senior

Well, but we don't use commonly the imperatives this way. _fuzakero _and _hozake _are rare cases, even though they may contain the sarcasm.....
I always thought why I can say them in a opposite way.


(I'm not so good at English so that I find it hard to express what I truly think of...)

summarize my question:
As for other languages *There are the specific verbs or the similar idioms in imperative mood can be used not as its real meaning but as its opposite meaning*, just in case of _fuzakero _or _hozake_. (I think it's some distant from a sort of sarcasm, irony, contradiction...)

If there are, please tell me more examples. thank you.


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## Encolpius

The Czech examples are very good and start me think my Hungarian ones are not the perfect ones (i think I would translate the Czech sentences in a different way, don't know now how )....I can hear and imagine that mother saying it...but intonation is extremely important in phrases like that...too bad we cannot hear the intonation differences in Japanese....but the etmophrese is different...the angry wife might use a similar sentence with similar intonation to her husband as well...


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## igusarov

810senior said:


> As for other languages *There are the specific verbs or the similar idioms in imperative mood can be used not as its real meaning but as its opposite meaning*, just in case of _fuzakero _or _hozake_. (I think it's some distant from a sort of sarcasm, irony, contradiction...)


Russian:

We have several constructions where imperative verb (marked bold blue in the examples below) is used not in its literal meaning.

1. Imperative form can express sarcasm:
"*Поспорь* мне тут ещё". Word-for-word translation: "*Argue* to me here more". Literal meaning: "Go ahead, argue some more with me". Real meaning behind the words: "Stop arguing".

2. Imperative form can express a threat:
"Ты только *тронь* мою сестру!" Word-for-word translation: "You only *touch* my sister!". Literal meaning: "You so much as touch my sister!". Real meaning: Don't touch my sister, or I'll rip your head off.

3. Imperative form can express conditional clause:
"*Надень* ты вчера шапку - не простыл бы". Word-for-word translation: "*Put on* you a hat yesterday - not caught a cold would". Meaning: "Had you put on a hat yesterday, you wouldn't have caught a cold". The real and literal meaning is the same as in "If you had been wearing a hat yesterday, you wouldn't be sneezing today", but without "if". Imperative verb conveys that "if" sense.


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## ThomasK

I quite agree that these all have the opposite meaning. Yet, in my view this is pure irony - and that is why it can be misinterpreted if one is not familiar with non-verbal clues accompanying it, etc. So I think this is all extra-linguistic. I am beginning to think that it is not perlocutionary though because this is some kind of a reorientation of illocutionary force (in casu: an encouragement is in fact only sneering and thus is a challenge  --- but only to do it and get punished, hit, become the victim...)


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## 810senior

ThomasK said:


> I quite agree that these all have the opposite meaning. Yet, in my view this is pure irony - and that is why it can be misinterpreted if one is not familiar with non-verbal clues accompanying it, etc. So I think this is all extra-linguistic. I am beginning to think that it is not perlocutionary though because this is some kind of a reorientation of illocutionary force (in casu: an encouragement is in fact only sneering and thus is a challenge  --- but only to do it and get punished, hit, become the victim...)



Yes, sometimes every phrase can have the opposite meaning from time to time. But In my opinion we need to distinguish whether the usage is the personal intention or the consensus. you can say "oh, look, she's so cute". to a woman. we can interpret this is a praise or a sarcasm but we don't use this phrase only as one meaning. (I suppose any language does, too)
But, in Japanese's case, these phrases are entirely used as the very opposite meaning. There is no point to be misinterpreted in this case. (Because the way is definitely precise, nobody takes the meaning word-by-word)

So that's why I'd like to know these similar cases (such as idioms or cliché[the fixed expression]) which only can be used in their opposite meaning. (I'm curious of that, of course)


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## ThomasK

Ah, I see. I am sorry if I have been complicating things. This seems to be very specific indeed...


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## Ghabi

In colloquial French, there is _t'inquiète_ "Worry!" which means "Don't worry!"


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## ger4

I forgot this one: _Hals- und Beinbruch!_ ('Break your neck and leg!') is what we often say in German  in order to express something like 'take care of yourself' - quite the opposite of its original meaning. It doesn't sound ironic or sarcastic as it has become a set phrase.

On the other hand, the imperative verb is dropped (literally, we say: 'neck[fracture] and leg fracture') but of course it is implied.


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## Ghabi

^There is even an Wikipedia article for that.


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