# Pasztet Francuski



## perpend

I hope this isn't too confusing. This is on the label of some liverwurst / braunschweiger that I bought in Chicago.

I understand it means Pâté French (literally).

Why wouldn't it be "Francuski Pasztet" on the label? (In other words, the reverse order of the words.)


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## Thomas1

Hello Perpend,

"Pasztet francuski" is what you would normally expect on the label. 
The place of the adjective very often matters in Polish. In examples alike, the postposition marks the type of noun it qualifies, the preposition only qualifies it without giving information about the type. So in other words "francuski pasztet" is possible, but rather unlikely if you are talking about a specific type of pâté.

I believe English might do the same thing with certain adjective-noun pairs but through different means. For example:
1. I saw a bluebird.
2. I saw a blue bird.

Let's put aside the question of spelling for a moment. When pronounced, in #1 the word "blue" is stressed more and we know we are dealing with a concrete species of bird, whereas in #2 both words are stressed equally and we know that we are dealing with some bird which is blue, but not necessarily a bluebird. This directly corresponds to the Polish "pasztet francuski" and "francuski pasztet" respectively. The difference is that the type is marked by stress in English and postposition in Polish.


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## perpend

I just want to say thanks for now, Thomas. You have piqued my interest, and I am still processing your "bluebird / blue bird" example!


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## Thomas1

Feel free to correct what I said if it doesn't hold true, Perpend. This is primarily my observation as an English student.

Here's some theoretical background that may be helpful:
More on the stress in sentence #2 here: 25 More rythm: consecutive stresses (p. 54) (HOW NOW, BROWN COW, A course in the pronunciation of English, with exercises and dialogues, Mimi Ponsonby, Prentice Hall). This is a course in British English pronunciation.

Audio pronunciation of "bluebird" (both British and American English).

Thinking and thinking about it over again, I'm now not sure the difference really exists.


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## Ben Jamin

I would formulate the answer in another way: the pair of words "francuski pasztet" means actually "a French pate" or "any French pate", the word "French" is the only thing we know about the paté. "Pasztet francuski" is a trademark, a fixed phrase or a generic name like "French fries".


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## perpend

Thank again, Thomas. I do see what you mean with the "stress". There would be a difference between "Pasztet francuski" and "Francuski pasztet". I would come about mostly in the pronunciation.

But, moreover, I see your point about the pre-/post-position. We don't have that option in English, so, it's interesting.

That said, I see where Ben Jamin's explanation about it being a "fixed phrase" makes sense too.

In other words "Pasztet francuski" is an idiomatic phrase.


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## Ben Jamin

perpend said:


> In other words "Pasztet francuski" is an idiomatic phrase.



Yes, but not only, an idiomatic phrase being a name of a defined product.

Here are more Polish names of traditional products and brand names:
- sernik wiedeński (a kind of cheese cake); wiedeński sernik = any cheese cake made in Vienna
- ciasto francuskie (puff pastry); francuskie ciasto  = any cake made in France
- kiełbasa krakowska (a brand of sausage); krakowska kiełbasa = any sausage made in Kraków


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## perpend

That's very helpful, Ben. Again, we don't have this type of distinction (to my knowledge) in English.

We typically just use "pâté" with no modifier, as to its origins.

If we want to specific it's from France we can say "French pâté", but that would also mean from anywhere in France.

It's interesting, and your examples are helping me further!

We can't say "pâté French", in English!  Weird, right?


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## Ben Jamin

perpend said:


> That's very helpful, Ben. Again, we don't have this type of distinction (to my knowledge) in English.
> 
> We typically just use "pâté" with no modifier, as to its origins.
> 
> If we want to specific it's from France we can say "French pâté", but that would also mean from anywhere in France.
> 
> It's interesting, and your examples are helping me further!
> 
> We can't say "pâté French", in English!  Weird, right?


Yes, as far as I understand English does not use postponed adjectives at all.


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## Thomas1

Postposition after indefinite pronouns is usual in English: _somewhere quiet_, _something better_. See also here: 9.2. Adjectives of comparison in postposition (p.274).

"court-marshal" is an example of adjectival postposition in English.  There are some examples of postpositive adjectives which were incorporated into English from other languages where this order in  natural (cf. _heir apparent _-- this one being a remnant of French influence), but not always: _city proper_.  Sometimes a particular meaning of a given adjective is only ascribed to postposition. 

"spaghetti bolognese" -- analysed from our point  of view-- is directly analogous to the Polish "pasztet francuski". In  both phrases the adjective determines the type of the preceding noun.


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## perpend

Thanks again, Thomas. Great examples!


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## jasio

Thomas1 said:


> "spaghetti bolognese" -- analysed from our point  of view-- is directly analogous to the Polish "pasztet francuski". In  both phrases the adjective determines the type of the preceding noun.



So what would then be a meaning of "*bolognese spaghetti"? 

In fact this term, also sometimes used in Polish, is a direct loan from Italian, not anglicised at all, so it does not count.


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## perpend

jasio said:


> So what would then be a meaning of "*bolognese spaghetti"?
> 
> In fact this term, also sometimes used in Polish, is a direct loan from Italian, not anglicised at all, so it does not count.



Interesting. We can't use it that way in English. In other words, "bolognese spaghetti" doesn't work.


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## Ben Jamin

Thomas1 said:


> Postposition after indefinite pronouns is usual in English: _somewhere quiet_, _something better_. See also here: 9.2. Adjectives of comparison in postposition (p.274).
> 
> "court-marshal" is an example of adjectival postposition in English.  There are some examples of postpositive adjectives which were incorporated into English from other languages where this order in  natural (cf. _heir apparent _-- this one being a remnant of French influence), but not always: _city proper_.  Sometimes a particular meaning of a given adjective is only ascribed to postposition.
> 
> "spaghetti bolognese" -- analysed from our point  of view-- is directly analogous to the Polish "pasztet francuski". In  both phrases the adjective determines the type of the preceding noun.


It seems that apart from "something special" and the like all other phrases are calques from Latin,  French or Italian.


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## jasio

perpend said:


> Interesting. We can't use it that way in English. In other words, "bolognese spaghetti" doesn't work.



That's why I marked it with a star. 

Thomas claimed that "spaghetti bolognese" is an analogue to "pasztet francuski". In my opinion it's not - firstly, because it's in fact in Italian rather than in English, secondly, because in Polish both orders are correct with a different semantic meaning (although sometimes a reversal is made just for stylistic reasons), while in English only one order is correct, isn't it?

Another example to the collection: 

* wysokie góry (high mountains): mountains, which are just high, whatever it actually means for a speaker
* góry wysokie: a specific kind of mountains with rocks, often glaciers, typically requiring special aclimatisation or equipment, such as Alps, Himalayas, Andes, etc.


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## perpend

Hi, Jasio, I think Thomas just wanted to point out that the post-position of "pasztet francuski" (in Polish) is similar to post-position of "spaghetti bolognese" in English. Yes, that's the only correct word order in English. I realize now that it could go either way in Polish---"pasztet francuski" or "francuski pasztet", and the meanings are different.

So, I'm clear for now. Thanks for all of your help, and the examples!


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