# Please feel free to correct me...



## Ilmen

Hiya! everybody! ♪

I wrote a Japanese sentence I'll probably put in my signature, but I prefer make sure I made no error. 
Therefore I submit it to your validation:

EN: Please feel free to correct me if you see any grammar or syntax error in my posts.
JP: 僕のメッセージで見付け出す文法の間違いをご遠慮なく正してください。

As you can see, it would be somewhat annoying if there were errors in such a sentence. 

So, is the Japanese sentence correct and natural? I removed the "or syntax" because I don't know how to express the conjunction "or" (= logical exclusive or, XOR) in Japanese yet. 
Beside, I'm not sure about the choice of the word 見付け出す, so I would like to have your advises about it.

Thank you in advance.


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## fitter.happier

Hi!

I don't think 見付け出す works here. 見つかる would be more natural.

My suggestion is as follows:

メッセージの中に文法間違いがあると遠慮なく直してください。

or, if you want to put more emphasis on "if" (_should there be any grammar mistakes..._), you could say:

もしメッセージの中に文法間違いがあるなら、遠慮なく直してください。

I removed syntax (統語論) because to me it sounds like a technical word that would not fit the request very well. One last thing: "or" is usually translated as 「か」.

Adding one more suggestion to keep in line with your original translation:

メッセージの中で文法間違いが見つかれば、遠慮なく直してください。

Note that you can substitute every 直して with 訂正して（ていせい）... the meaning doesn't change.


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## Ilmen

You're right, 見付け出す don't fit at all in my sentence, because it means "to discover", "to find", and not "to be found". ^^

Thank you for your reply and your examples of translations, it was very helpful. ^^

Besides, in my word database, I have also "なり" for "or" (maybe the stem of 成る).

What is the subtlety between ●の中に and ●の中で in this context?
And, what is the second kanji of 見つかる? It seems to be the intransitive version of 見付ける (to find), even though the intransitive version of 付ける is 付く. =/


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## fitter.happier

In the first sentence I used the verb ある, so に is necessary (if *there are *mistakes in my posts). I'm sure you know about X*に*Yが*ある*/*いる*! 

In the last sentence the verb is 見つかる (if mistakes are found in my posts), so you need the locative で.

Hope it helped. As always, wait for a native or an expert to confirm!


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## Ilmen

Oh yeah, I see. To tell the truth, I do not know much about this grammar rule yet. I'm a self-teaching student and I'm learning Japanese grammar with the Tae Kim's Grammar Guide.
I know that に is used with 有る and 居る to indicate the location of an existing object or animal (この山にオオカミが居ます = there is wolves in these mountains), but I don't know what do mean the ●で有る structure yet. However, I think I will learn it soon, and I already saw some use of it, such 「彼は少年の父であり、師匠でもあった。」.

And yes, I see why you used the locative で.
走る野兎を草原で見掛けた。 I catch sight of a running hare in the meadows.

And, eventually, I found what is the full kanji writting of 見つかる. That's all well and good 《見付かる》. Even though 見つかる seems to be more often used, I wanted to know it, what's done by now. 

Well, I think I'll opt for the last one:
「メッセージの中で文法間違いが見付かれば、遠慮なく直してください。」

Thank you for your help, Fitter-Happier. ^^


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## Ilmen

Well, the signature lenght limits are very strict, so I had to shorten my sentences drastically:
"Please feel free to correct my English. 遠慮なく僕の日本語を直して下さい。"

Is still the Japanese phrase natural? Is the choice of 僕 judicious or should I use 私?

Besides, I saw in the signature of somebody the sentence 「日本語の間違い直して下さい!」. Is it common to drop the を particle in such a case?

Thank you in advance.


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## fitter.happier

Ilmen said:


> Oh yeah, I see. To tell the truth, I do not know much about this grammar rule yet. I'm a self-teaching student and I'm learning Japanese grammar with the Tae Kim's Grammar Guide.
> I know that に is used with 有る and 居る to indicate the location of an existing object or animal (この山にオオカミが居ます = there is wolves in these mountains), but I don't know what do mean the ●で有る structure yet. However, I think I will learn it soon, and I already saw some use of it, such 「彼は少年の父であり、師匠でもあった。」.
> 
> And yes, I see why you used the locative で.
> 走る野兎を草原で見掛けた。 I catch sight of a running hare in the meadows.
> 
> And, eventually, I found what is the full kanji writting of 見つかる. That's all well and good 《見付かる》. Even though 見つかる seems to be more often used, I wanted to know it, what's done by now.
> 
> Well, I think I'll opt for the last one:
> 「メッセージの中で文法間違いが見付かれば、遠慮なく直してください。」
> 
> Thank you for your help, Fitter-Happier. ^^



Sorry for the late reply.
I advise you against writing everything in kanji. Specifically, いる　and ある are pretty much always written in kana. 居る and 有る look pretentious.

Same goes for 見つかる. I've never seen 見付かる.

Also, I never used である (which is, to put it simply, a more formal version of です), I used メッセージの中*で*[...]見つかれば.

The であり　in 彼は少年の父であり、師匠でもあった is the continuative form of である.



			
				Ilmen said:
			
		

> Well, the signature lenght limits are very strict, so I had to shorten my sentences drastically:
> "Please feel free to correct my English. 遠慮なく僕の日本語を直して下さい。"
> 
> Is still the Japanese phrase natural? Is the choice of 僕 judicious or should I use 私?
> 
> Besides, I saw in the signature of somebody the sentence 「日本語の間違い直して下さい!」. Is it common to drop the を particle in such a case?
> 
> Thank you in advance.


I can't say I've heard natives say 僕の日本語 or 私の日本語. To me, the most natural way of saying "my Japanese is good/bad/whatever" is [僕/私]*は*日本語*が*得意/苦手...
The は・・・が  construction is very much used when describing qualities that are not related to possession (where の would be more suitable).

Eg.
ジョンさんは目が青いです。 John's eyes are blue.
リーさんは日本語が上手です。Mr Lee's Japanese is good.

That being said, if the character limit for the signature is too strict, you could just say:

遠慮なく間違いを直してください。 Please correct my mistakes.

And yes, を (and other particles) is sometimes dropped, but the sentence is still perfectly understandable.


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## Strutter

Ilmen said:


> "Please feel free to correct my Japanese.



もし僕の日本語に変なところがあれば、直してくださると嬉しいです。

This is not a strictly literal translation. But other than that, it's all okay.



> I saw in the signature of somebody the sentence 「日本語の間違い直して下さい!」. Is it common to drop the を particle in such a case?


Not a big error but still doesn't sound natural. I guess non-native person wrote that.


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## almostfreebird

When I see the sentence "英語の間違い直して下さい", I cannot tell if it's a non-native Japanese speaker or not who wrote that.
It sounds natural as a casual way of saying "英語の間違いを直して下さい".


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## Ilmen

fitter.happier said:


> Sorry for the late reply.
> I advise you against writing everything in kanji. Specifically, いる　and ある are pretty much always written in kana. 居る and 有る look pretentious.
> 
> Same goes for 見つかる. I've never seen 見付かる.



Yes thank you for your warning; I guess using kanjis for 居る and 有る is not a good idea, above all in the ～ている and ～てある forms. Still, I think they can be use in some cases where we would want to particularly insist on the existance of something... Though I don't know when native speakers would use kanji for them. Are they really became obsoletes?

To me, 見付ける is the combination of 見 (stem of the ichidan verb 見る, to see) and 付ける (to attach), just like 走り出す do (走る+出す).
But that's right that's more difficult for 見つかる, because the intransitive form of 付ける is 付く and not 付かる. So it's maybe better to not write 見つかる with a second kanji, even though WWWJDIC say 見付かる is as common as 見つかる (what is not in accord to what I saw up to now).



fitter.happier said:


> I can't say I've heard natives say 僕の日本語 or 私の日本語. To me, the most natural way of saying "my Japanese is good/bad/whatever" is [僕/私]は日本語が得意/苦手...
> The は・・・が construction is very much used when describing qualities that are not related to possession (where の would be more suitable).
> 
> Eg.
> ジョンさんは目が青いです。 John's eyes are blue.
> リーさんは日本語が上手です。Mr Lee's Japanese is good.



Regarding me, I heard 「僕の日本語」 this very day (Strutter is a native speaker). 



Strutter said:


> I wonder how you feel about this sentence: "僕が思うに、日本へ行けば僕の日本語はもっと上手になっていた。"



I know Japanese gives priority to ●は●が● on ●の●が●, but here I was using it as an object of a verb. I don't think 「僕は日本語を直して下さい」 would have make it (although I'm unsure, it may work too).


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## Strutter

Ilmen said:


> 僕は日本語を直して下さい



You don't say it. If you say it, they might understand what you mean but also it will probably make them laugh.

Like .. hmm... "Could I let me correct my Japanese?" ... kind of.


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## Ilmen

I edited my post, it was uncomplete and was containing some mistakes. I had some troubles to manage to update it, sorry.


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## Ilmen

There is still some things I'm wondering about.

First, I used 遠慮なく to mean "Please feel free to" or "don't hesitate to".  Is there some alternatives to it? I saw some words that means "to  hesitate", here they are: 躊躇う（ためらう）、憚る、渋る。
Could one of them fit into such a sentence in a negative form?

Besides, why the use of 正す in this case is wrong? Honestly, I do not  actually know the basic difference between 正す and 直す (I just know that  直す means also "to cure; to heal", among other things).



Strutter said:


> もし僕の日本語に変なところがあれば、直してくださると嬉しいです。
> 
> This is not a strictly literal translation. But other than that, it's all okay.



A bit too long for a multilingual signature, but very  interesting example. What does exactly mean 「変なところ」? To me it means  "peculiar place", but it's obvious there is not it's true  meaning. 
I like more particularly the part 「直してくださると嬉しいです。」. ^^


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## Strutter

Ilmen said:


> A bit too long for a multilingual signature,


Okay then, how about "変な日本語があれば、直してくださると嬉しいです。" or "日本語に間違いがあれば、直してください。"? Still too long? Those have almost the same meaning that the sentence I wrote at first has.




> What does exactly mean 「変なところ」? To me it means  "peculiar place", but it's obvious there is not it's true  meaning.


Ha ha, yeah. For real, 変なところ can mean "peculiar place." But, yes, it doesn't mean that in "もし僕の日本語に変なところがあれば、直してくださると嬉しいです。" This 変なところ means "any grammatical error", "anything unnatural", etc etc. 

And now I guess this use of 変なところ is probably worth to remember. For example, when you want someone to check what you wrote in Japanese, you can say (これを見ていただきたいのですが、)何か変なところはありますか？ The meaning is close to that of "Could/can you check this?"


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## Lala ~ララ~

Hi there ! Nice to meet you, let me take part in the discussion !
About 遠慮なく。
Is it strange if i say to *a friend* :
間違いがあったら/間違いがあると/間違いがあれば遠慮なく直してね。

遠慮なくis used with keigo right ? But can i mix it with a simple ~te form ?

Is there something to replace 遠慮なくwhen talking to your friends ?

Thank you very much !


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## almostfreebird

I like your name, Lala ~ララ~!


I'll be deleted soon, good bye!


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## Lala ~ララ~

Well, thank you.
Don't be deleted that wouldn't be cool, right?

Why not helping me/us on this one ?
協力をお願いします。


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## Ilmen

Lala ~ララ~, I don't know alternatives to (ご)遠慮なく yet, but (お)気軽に is maybe a good track.



Strutter said:


> Okay then, how about "変な日本語があれば、直してくださると嬉しいです。" or "日本語に間違いがあれば、直してください。"? Still too long? Those have almost the same meaning that the sentence I wrote at first has.


No, they aren't too long.  「日本語に間違いがあれば、直してくださると嬉しいです。」 is a very good one. Thank you. 
 



Strutter said:


> Ha ha, yeah. For real, 変なところ can mean "peculiar place." But, yes, it doesn't mean that in "もし僕の日本語に変なところがあれば、直してくださると嬉しいです。" This 変なところ means "any grammatical error", "anything unnatural", etc etc.
> 
> And now I guess this use of 変なところ is probably worth to remember. For example, when you want someone to check what you wrote in Japanese, you can say (これを見ていただきたいのですが、)何か変なところはありますか？ The meaning is close to that of "Could/can you check this?"


I take note, thank you. ^^

And, what about the difference between 正す and 直す here? Why 「正してください。」 is wrong in such a case?


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## Strutter

Ilmen said:


> And, what about the difference between 正す and 直す here? Why 「正してください。」 is wrong in such a case?



1. 日本語に間違いがあれば、直してください。
2. 日本語に間違いがあれば、正してください。

Hummmm.... hummmmm .... hummmmm....

It is obvious that both are grammatically correct, but I prefer the former one for this case. One definition of 何かを正す is I think "to correct something which has to be corrected for some reason." But mistakes in your Japanese are not such things or rather you personally want someone to correct them. Because of those, I don't think the latter one is a good way of asking.

However, I've actually seen sentences like "以下の文中の間違いを正せ." It is very natural if it is, for example, a direction for an exam, because mistakes in the sentences the direction indicates need to be corrected.


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## Ilmen

Oh, I understand. Thank you very much, Strutter. ^^

As to my question about the kanji usage for 有る and 居る, I created this thread: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2036125居る, 有る and 成る.

I have no further question. The topic is closed.


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## Strutter

I'm really glad to hear that. 

Well, I've thought about it for a short while, that is why I don't think 間違いを正してください is natural in the case. It's really fun for me to think about things about my mother language because through the action I can see Japanese from the another point which I would never stand at if I didn't join this forum. And now, I'm going to add something to my previous explanation.

Here is a case that 間違いを正してください is a natural statement. 

Assuming I'm a Japanese teacher and you are my student who is very clever and whom I really proud of, then if I say "これから日本語の文章を書くから、その中の間違いを*正してね*。" while I'm teaching you Japanese, in this case 間違いを正してね is natural all  the way (The meaning is like "I'll write a sentence that contains some intentional grammatical-errors, then correct them.") The reason is because the mistakes will be made in order only to check how well you understand Japanese, in other words, you are going to have to correct them.

However, I can say "・・・、その中の間違いを*直してね*。" instead at the same time. The difference is that the former just sounds like a more formal order compared with the latter. Other than that, I would say both are the same.

As a matter of fact, I had a feeling that any 正す can be rephrased to 直す　without causing any big difference, for example, 姿勢を正せ→姿勢を直せ, 生活態度を正せ→生活態度を直せ, but I noticed that is wrong, for example, 事の真相を正す→事の真相を直す, 日本の政治を正す→日本の政治を直す(humm, this case is very tough, but I actually feel that 政治を直す is weird。Yes, how difficult!).

That's all I have for now. It's much longer than I thought.


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## Ilmen

No problem, I'm never afraid of long posts. ^^
I read you, and I thank you for this interesting supplement. With your help, the nuance between these two verbs appears more clear to me. 

ありがとうございました。♪


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