# (A)Round



## ThomasK

I wonder whether you can use the word '(a)round)' in many different ways (or a synonym)... 

In Dutch: 

1a. _Iets is rond, ik heb iets rond_ (It is finished, I have finished it)
1b. _Afronden _(to make round, if something is not completely round, and also to finish it) 
2. _Rond 10 uur_ (at [round] about 10 o'clock)
3. _Om en rond de Muur_ (in the sur-round-ings, near the Wall)
4. _De volgende ronde_ (The next round)
5. _Om de beurt_ (_om_ is similar to _rond_: taking turns, chacun à son tour)
6. _Een omweg_ (A detour)
7. ... 

Additions welcome, also slight variations like (_rond)om_.


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## sakvaka

In Italian and Finnish, you can approximate a figure by _fare cifra tonda_ / _pyöristää_. So if I may ask a further question:

_Tarkka arvo on 3,02351132125. Sanotaan pyöreästi 3._
_"The accurate value is 3,023511... Let's say roundly 3."

__5,5 pyöristyy ylöspäin kuutoseksi. 5,4 pyöristyy alaspäin viitoseksi._
_"5,5 is rounded upwards to six. 5,4 is rounded downwards to five._"

Anything similar in other languages?


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## ThomasK

Oh yes: that is _afronden_ (1b) in Dutch. Do you recognize all the others as well, Sakvaka?


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## sakvaka

Sorry, I didn't notice that! This seems to be a follow-up thread for an earlier one. 

I recognize _ympäristö_ (surroundings, also: environment!), and the word _detour_ leads me to the verb _kiertää_ (circle around) that yields billions of similar words and expressions. 

_kiertokäynti_ = tour
_verenkierto _= blood circulation [system]

But I cannot think of anything metaphorical like in your examples. The roots are _pyör- _and _ymp-_. There are many derived nouns and verbs, eg. _circle_ (ympyrä) is just an "aroundey".


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## ThomasK

_Yes, you could say so, but I am getting broader-minded all the time, or so I hope ! ;-)_

 But then: nothing like 'around 10' ? I forgive you for not having any of those metaphors. The Finnish worldview is interesting as it is ! ;-)


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## sakvaka

No, unfortunately! _Tavataan kymmenen tienoilla_ is commonly used ("Let's meet in the surroundings of 10"), but the important word, _tienoot_, doesn't contain a reference to round things, just a big land area near some place.


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## jana.bo99

I would say: I will go tomorrow away around 7 o'clock

Croatian: sutra ću otići oko sedam sati
Slovenian: jutri bom odšla okrog sedme ure

(A)round:

Croatian: oko
Slovenian: okrog 

It sounds strange to me, but it exists.


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## ThomasK

Interesting. Could you comment on some of the others, Jana? (I mean : 1, 3,4,5,6) Thanks !


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## jana.bo99

ThomasK said:


> Interesting. Could you comment on some of the others, Jana? (I mean : 1, 3,4,5,6) Thanks !



You mean hour?

Slovenian: 
okrog (okoli) ene (1) ure: around 1 o'clock
okrog (okoli) treh zjutraj:  around 3 o'clock in the morning
okrog (okoli) četrte ure: around 4 o'clock
okrog (okoli) pete ure: around 5 o'clock.

Okrog 
or 
okoli: similar meaning. 

There is also other sentence:

I want to run today around the lake: danes želim teči okrog jezera

It is more used in Slovenian than in Croatian.


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## ThomasK

But not in 'surroundings', or in 'my turn', I gather, or in 'detour' (roundabout-tour)... Thanks.

In the meantime, I have thought of three meanings implied by rond/around
 - around, alongside
 - finished
 - not direct enough, avoiding the issue, as in 

7. Flemish: _rond de pot draaien_ (English: *to beat around the bush*). Does anyone recognize such a _round_-expression, meaning the same ?


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## ThomasK

In the meantime I happened to come across the Finnish _*kiertotie*_, and _*kävelilenkki*_, a walk around, or something. But they do not seem to sound like detours, off-roads; they're meant to be longer, I guess, but I do see _circle (_so "round"_)_ in the first, not more... 

I also found the _*käänt*_-element, which is used for translating a lot of _om_-words in Dutch, but they refer to turning (upside down), I believe: like the Finnish words for _revolution, the reverse, to turn around, translate (trans-)_... But I guess none of those reminds you of round, whereas the -_volution_ in _revolution_ refers to turning (round).


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## sakvaka

ThomasK said:


> In the meantime I happened to come across the Finnish _*kiertotie*_, and _*kävelilenkki*_, a walk around, or something. But they do not seem to sound like detours, off-roads; they're meant to be longer, I guess, but I do see _circle (_so "round"_)_ in the first, not more...



Kävelylenkki, it's got an Y in it. "Kiertotie", detour, is literally a way around. "Kävelylenkki" is a "passeggiata", a (short) walk around for refreshment purposes.



> I also found the _*käänt*_-element, which is used for translating a lot of _om_-words in Dutch, but they refer to turning (upside down), I believe: like the Finnish words for _revolution, the reverse, to turn around, translate (trans-)_... But I guess none of those reminds you of round, whereas the -_volution_ in _revolution_ refers to turning (round).



You're right, they don't.



ThomasK said:


> 7. Flemish: _rond de pot draaien_ (English: *to beat around the bush*). Does anyone recognize such a _round_-expression, meaning the same ?



"Beat around the bush" is translated in Finnish as "kierrellä ja kaarella" (circle and soar). It's a double-round expression: _kaari_ also means "arc".

Some online dictionaries may provide an alternative translation, but in my opinion, it means something different. However, "kiertää" element is present in it. More.


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## apmoy70

In Greek:
1a/ Not directly. Indirectly though we use the proverbial «έκλεισε ο κύκλος» ('eklise o 'ciklos) lit. "the cycle has concluded" (a recurring sequence of events has finished).
1b/ Not sure what you mean (sorry)
2/ «Γύρω» (ʝiro, _adv._), a Medieval Greek word, from the Hellenistic adv. «γύρωθεν» ('gŭrōtʰĕn)-->_all around_.
3/ «Περίγυρος» (pe'riʝiros, _masculine noun_), Medieval Greek compound word formed with the joining together of the prefix and preposition «περὶ» (pĕ'ri)-->_around, about, beyond_ + masculine noun «γῦρος» ('gūrŏs); «περίγυρος» lit. means _circumference, encircling_ metaph. _surroundings, neighbouring area_ (cognate with Frech _alentours_). 
4/ «Γύρος» ('ʝiros, _masculine noun_).
5/ No.
6/ See here
7...«Τριγύρω» (tri'ʝiro, _adv._) a Byzantine compound word formed with the joining together of the prefix «τρι-» (tri-) + adv. «γύρω» ('ʝiro). «Τριγύρω» lit. means _three-times around_ and is mostly used in the sense of "loiter, linger aimlessly", e.g: 
-Where's your brother?
-«Τριγυρίζει» (3rd person, present tense, indicative mood of verb «τριγυρίζω») or 
-«Τριγύρω»

[c] is a voiceless palatal plosive
[ʝ] is a voiced palatal fricative


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## ThomasK

apmoy70 said:


> In Greek:
> 1b/ Not sure what you mean (sorry)
> 2/ «Γύρω» (ʝiro, _adv._), a Medieval Greek word, from the Hellenistic adv. «γύρωθεν» ('gŭrōtʰĕn)-->_all around_.
> 7...«Τριγύρω» (tri'ʝiro, _adv._) a Byzantine compound word formed with the joining together of the prefix «τρι-» (tri-) + adv. «γύρω» ('ʝiro). «Τριγύρω» lit. means _three-times around_ and is mostly used in the sense of "loiter, linger aimlessly", e.g:
> -Where's your brother?
> -«Τριγυρίζει» (3rd person, present tense, indicative mood of verb «τριγυρίζω») or
> -«Τριγύρω»
> 
> [c] is a voiceless palatal plosive
> [ʝ] is a voiced palatal fricative


 
As for 1b: can you use 'round' when referring to finishing a text ? 

The loitering: I suppose that is what the English speaker (and we in Dutch) call: *'hang around', 'rondhangen'*. Isn't it ? Thanks, Apmoy !


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## ThomasK

sakvaka said:


> "Beat around the bush" ...
> 
> Some online dictionaries may provide an alternative translation, but in my opinion, it means something different. However, "kiertää" element is present in it. More.


 
Could you explain what means something different ? Thanks !


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## sakvaka

ThomasK said:


> Could you explain what means something different ? Thanks !



Click on that link ("More") and you will be guided to a thread where Mr. hui defines "circle like a cat [circles] hot porridge" as "circle something while not daring to touch it". After seeing this definition (which I'm very sure is correct), I'm more and more willing to accept it as a translation alternative.


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## ThomasK

Thanks, but I must admit I was unable to read, er, decipher it. ;-(

Now, I thought of _round_ as in _omheining_, the fence surrounding one's garden/ territory (resulting in an enclosure in English).


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## apmoy70

ThomasK said:


> As for 1b: can you use 'round' when referring to finishing a text ?


No, I'm afraid not.


ThomasK said:


> The loitering: I suppose that is what the English speaker (and we in Dutch) call: *'hang around', 'rondhangen'*. Isn't it ? Thanks, Apmoy !


Ha, yes, exactly.


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## Tjahzi

Every time I start reading through this thread, I get some many things to reply to and comment that I lose myself before I reach the end, so now I've concluded to just complete your initial list (I reckon you will find it exciting enough):


1a+b. We have the verb _att runda av_ which is used similarly to English _to round off_, mostly used for TV-shows/programs. It can also be used in the sense of shaping an object into becoming more round, as in less sharp (the end of sticks, etc). As such, I suppose these both qualify.

2. _Runt klockan 10 _((a)round clock-the 10). 
Swedish, like Dutch, does not, by definition, distinguish _round_ and _around _from each other. Instead, when functioning as an adverb (or a preposition), it is conjugated like an adverb (that is, by taking the adverbial suffix _-t_). However, what's even more interesting here is that there is another way to express this as well, namely through rephrasing it to (_Om)kring klockan 10.Omkring _could be said to translate to both _around _and _about_ and its usage very much overlaps with that of the adverb _runt_. The etymology of om-kring, although seemingly obvious, is interesting since the compounds both have broad usages.

3. I'm not sure what exactly this means in Dutch, but a similar (to the English translation) phrase could be formed in Swedish with both the meaning of around, as in encompassing, and around as in the vicinity of the wall.

4. _Den följande (kommande) rundan_ (The next round). The noun here is _runda, _which translates to English _(a/the) round._

5. Here we find _att turas om_. The root is _tur_ - _(a/the) turn _which when "verbified" recieves an _-a_ and then the _-s_ is added to mark middle voice/reciprocity and then on top of that you have _om_.  

6. _En omväg_ (A detour). _En omväg_ could be an intentional or unintentional detour that ends up being longer than the initial route. It can have destinations of its own, but also just being about a change of course (and the requirement of being longer than the initial one).

Additionally, we have:
_(en) omkrets - circumference
(att) omkomma - to succumb (die)
(att) omvända - to convert

_And the list goes on...


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## ThomasK

I recognize the same pattern in Dutch: lots of verbs with om-, such as indeed _omkomen_ (die), _omwisselen_ (convert).


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## Outsider

The Portuguese equivalents seem to be *volta* (literally "turn"), *vez* ("turn", "time") *redondo* ("round", adj.) and *cerca* ("about"). 

1a. _Iets is rond, ik heb iets rond_ (It is finished, I have finished it)

The normal word is *acabar* (also Spanish), from *cabo*: cape, edge, end. But there are also *arrematar* and *rematar* from *remate*, loosely translatable as "crown", although these are less common and more specific. *Rematar* is the word for shooting the ball at the goal in football, for instance.​1b. _Afronden _(to make round, if something is not completely round, and also to finish it) 

Well, there is *arredondar*, "to round up", from *redondo*, "round". But there is no association with "to finish", that I know of.​2. _Rond 10 uur_ (at [round] about 10 o'clock)

Por *volta* das 10 horas./ *Cerca* das 10 horas.​3. _Om en rond de Muur_ (in the sur-round-ings, near the Wall)

In the sorroundings = nos *arredores*. It could be that _arredores_ is related to _redondo_ (round), but I haven't been able to check.
Around the wall = à *volta* do muro.​4. _De volgende ronde_ (The next round)

A próxima *volta/vez*.​5. _Om de beurt_ (_om_ is similar to _rond_: taking turns, chacun à son tour)

Um de cada *vez*.​6. _Een omweg_ (A detour)

_Uma *volta*_ is possible, although the normal translation in this context is _desvio_.​


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## ThomasK

I am quite astonished that you have four kind-of-synonyms/ near-synonyms. We have two (_rond/om_), but we do use _circa_, which also refers to _round_, as you point out, indeed. 

So the main differences seems to be that meaning of to finish ('round off'). Interesting, thanks !


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## bibax

The Czech (and generally Slavic) preposition meaning _about/around_ is *o* which is a shortened form of *ob* (< *obь), from PIE *ambhi, related to Latin ambi and Greek amphi. So originally it meant rather "on both sides" than "around".

The preposition *o* is nearly an equivalent of German *um*:

*o* půlnoci = *um* Mitternacht;
požádat *o* radu = angehen *um* Rat;

The verbal prefixes *o-* and *ob-* are equivalent to Latin *circum-*:

*obe*jíti = *circu*ire = to walk around;
*ob*orati = *circum*arare = to plough around;
*ob*letěti = *circum*volare = to fly around;

1a. -
1b. *zaokrouhliti* (za-*o*-*krouh*-l-i-ti, from adj. o-krouh-l-ý = round) = to round up (a number), to make round, where *kruh* = circle (< *krong, related to OHG _hring_);

2. *o* desáté hodině = at 10 o'clock; *kolem* desáté hodiny = at about 10 o'clock, where *kolem* (Germ. um, rings, ringsum, rund um) is instr. of the noun *kolo* (cf. Greek kyklos) = wheel;

3. *kolem* zdi = um die Mauer; cesta *kolem* světa = eine Reise um die Welt;

4. příští *kolo*; (in the pub we say colloq. "příští *runda*");

5. ?

9. *ob*jížďka (< *ob*-jeti = to go around), *o*klika (klika = crank, hook);


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## ThomasK

> So originally it meant rather "on both sides" than "around".


 
Well, that might explain quite a lot: we feel in Dutch that there is quite some difference between "om" and "rond", but it is hard to pinpoint it. This might be of help. 

1b. Please note that I mean _afronden_ as 'to finish' (to make the circle round ?).


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## bibax

In Czech _to finish_ is *končiti* (ukončiti, zakončiti, skončiti, dokončiti, ...), from the noun *konec* = end.

Or *završiti* (za-vrch-i-ti) = to crown, to round out/off, where *vrch* = hill.


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## ThomasK

Thanks, so no circles or other round things. Thanks !


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## itreius

Croatian

1.b zaokružiti - to make a circle around something, to complete something, round off
2. oko 10 sati - at around 10 o'clock
3. u okolici - in the vicinity
4. sljedeći krug - the next round/circle

_additions_

okoliš - environment
okolina - environment, ambience
kolo - wheel
okolo - around
okružiti - to surround
okrug - district

As you can see, those are two independent roots but they are semantically close (oko/okolo - around; krug - circle). _Oko_ also means _eye_ but is a result of an entirely different PIE word (a cognate of eye, auge, oog, oculus) whereas oko/okolo comes from Old Slavic *okolo.


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## ThomasK

That is quite interesting, thanks. There are some interesting parallels. 

The _amphi_ issue then, on both sides, but not around, as Bibax pointed out in #24: can you recognize any of that? Do you make such a distinction using prefixes?


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## ThomasK

5 years later i realize that German has 'Kreis' (circle) for district as well.. Just wondering whether Japanese or Chinese associate things with circles and circular things....


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## Armas

Finnish words from the roots ymp- and pyör- (see post #4):

ymmärtää = to understand
ymmällä- + personal ending = baffled, confused

pyörtyä = to faint, pass out

And the phrase puhua (joku) ympäri = to talk (someone) around, i.e. to persuade, to make someone change their opinion.



ThomasK said:


> 5 years later i realize that German has 'Kreis' (circle) for district as well.



Finnish has it as well:

piiri = circle, (electric) circuit, district

Piiri is used in many compounds as well, e.g.:

aihepiiri = subject matter (aihe = subject, topic, theme)
etupiiri = sphere of interest (etu = interest, benefit)
ilmapiiri = atmosphere, climate in metaphorical sense (ilma = air)

Words derived from piiri:

piirtää = to draw (with a pen etc.)
piirittää = to surround, to besiege

Another word meaning circle is kehä, from which we get kehittää = to develop and kehottaa = to recommend, to urge.


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## momai

These are some of the words that are heard in Syrian Arabic (and many other dialects as well) and are derived from the root (H-w-l) and (d-w-r)
Hawl: around (a preposition) ,it can be used with time as well
hawaali: approximately
Al-Hawal :strabismus
taHwiila :1- a detour 2- a transfer to hospital for example
Hiwwala:money order,transfer
muhawala :an attempt
Hiila : a trick
________
da'ira : a circle
daar :a house 
al-dawra al-damwiya: Blood circulation
diwwar :roundabout
dawr : a turn as in" it is my turn !"


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## ThomasK

@Armas: you Always give very good information, thanks for that. Interesting: domain or sphere is circular in Finnish, not with us, I think. Piirtää : I would link drawing with circles, but OK (in French it is linked with making signs: _dessiner_)...

@momai: some things are quite new. Like strabismus and circles? Houses and circles (or were houses circular at some time?)? Money and circles ??? Oh yes, because coins have Always been round (like Chinese _yuan_, Japanese _yen_) and thus money can roll! Attempts and tricks: is trying like circling around something (like _chercher_, looking for in French, is based on _circle_, etc.)...


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