# inciucio



## andersxman

the above word is not to be found in the dictionary linked to the forum. How would it translate into english?


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## Korena

I did a google search for it, and a website came up that said it was a slang term for "fraud."

http://www.proz.com/kudoz/737947

-Korena


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## emma1968

Korena said:
			
		

> I did a google search for it, and a website came up that said it was a slang term for "fraud."
> 
> http://www.proz.com/kudoz/737947
> 
> -Korena



"L'inciucio" è un accordo ufficioso/( not a formal one).
Emma


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## Korena

So inciucio isn't used, or is not known to mean fraud?

-Korena


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## emma1968

Korena said:
			
		

> So inciucio isn't used, or is not known to mean fraud?
> 
> -Korena


The word is commonly used but I think not to mean fraud.
Maybe  I could say that fraud is too strong for identifying it.
However,I'm not so sure about what I said, please  wait for someone else


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## Alfry

Usually to people "hanno un inciucio" when they try to have a hidden story.

Also, in sentences like this: 

"Grazie all'inciucio tra X ed Y, hanno fatto un sacco di soldi"

 "fraud" Could be ok.


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## ElaineG

Well, is it fraud or "secret understanding"?  Based on your examples and what Emma said, it's "secret agreement/understanding", "under-the-table arrangement/deal."


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## Alfry

Both, a love story and a fraud 

A: hai sentito dell'inciucio tra Angela e Paolo? (i nomi sono puramente casuali)

A: hai sentito dell'inciucio tra centro destra e centro sinistra per la legge sul xxx? (par conditio)


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## ElaineG

I still think back-room deal or any of the phrases I mentioned above works better than "fraud".

See also Garzanti: 





> nell'uso giornalistico, accordo politico non lineare, frutto di basso compromesso.


 
A fraud, or truffo, need not be the product of a secret agreement or deal, and a secret agreement or deal need not be a fraud (as in the love affair case).


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## moodywop

I agree with Elaine. As Garzanti says, Neapolitan _'nciucià (_from which _inciucio_ is derived) means "parlottare segretamente", which can refer to gossip or a secret agreement.

_'na 'nciucessa _is a woman who likes to gossip


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## Juri

*patched-up deal*


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## emma1968

Alfry said:
			
		

> Both, a love story and a fraud
> 
> A: hai sentito dell'inciucio tra Angela e Paolo? (i nomi sono puramente casuali)
> 
> A: hai sentito dell'inciucio tra centro destra e centro sinistra per la legge sul xxx? (par conditio)


Bravo Alfry!!
Perché a me non è venuto alcun  esempio ??? Grrrr
Emma


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## Silvia

Finora, la definizione che si avvicina di più mi sembra "under-the-table deal".

Quello che al sud è un inciucio, al nord può essere una gabola, ma di solito il termine gabola non viene utilizzato in ambito politico, mi esimo dall'esprimere congetture sul perché e percome...


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## Paulfromitaly

I would say dodgy deal...


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## Silvia

What about "an underhand affair"?


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## King Crimson

In today's online edition of _Repubblica _this is translated as _stitch-up_ (here) and the journalist, who is a native speaker of English, seems to have perfectly grasped the meaning of the term.


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## EdenMartin

King Crimson said:


> In today's online edition of _Repubblica _this is translated as _stitch-up_ (here) and the journalist, who is a native speaker of English, seems to have perfectly grasped the meaning of the term.


Correct:  "inciucio" and "inciuciare" nowadays usually have the meaning of "secretely prearrange something" (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/stitch+up) and are referred above all to politics. These expressions contain also a hint of "fraude", because (whereas friends make only "agreements") in politics an "inciucio" is made for reasons of mere convenience between alternative forces, contraddicting former statements and programs.
Anyway be aware that, above all in Center and South of Italy, these words are used for more or less secret love affairs.


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## Einstein

Dirty/unprincipled/underhand agreement.


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## arthurlee

Secondo il "wikizionario": _scam, gimmick, ploy, scheme_; mentre il dizionario del Corriere propone: (Giorn)_ scam, scheme, corrupt business deal_.

Aggiungo anche "_under-the-table agreement_"; ma forse, trattandosi di una parola dialettale, se la si dovesse "tradurre" in inglese credo sarebbe opportuno limitarsi a citarla così com'è, offrendo poi tra parentesi, più che una traduzione, una sua spiegazione...

Per approfondire, Wikipedia fornisce tutti i dettagli sull'introduzione del termine nel gergo giornalistico italiano.


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## Rumaggi

Could inciucio be rooted in ciucico - pacifier - a device used to quell a disagreement, hence a stopgap arrangement to stiflle?


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## Odysseus54

Interesting idea, but no, it's not.  For the origin of the word, see above #10.

As to the meaning, I think the closest is 'backroom trading/dealing'.


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## Rumaggi

Odysseus54 said:


> Interesting idea, but no, it's not.  For the origin of the word, see above #10.
> 
> As to the meaning, I think the closest is 'backroom trading/dealing'.




Does Garzanti indeed say _inciucio_ is derived from _'nciucià? 

_Is_ inciucio_ a neologism or has it been in common usage for some time_?  _I get the impression from the deprecatory tone in which the world is uttered  — in TV political discussions that that it is a neologism, hence of current; thus, I wonder about it having a traditional derivation_, _and not being _a _contemporary creation_.  



_


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## Odysseus54

Not only the Garzanti , but all sorts of sources you can easily access on line.

To that I would add that a derivative of 'ciuccio' ( pacifier ) would have to retain the double consonant, which as you know represents a distinctly different sound than the simple consonant in Italian, and is always retained as such in all the derivatives of words with double consonants. 

The derivative would be 'inciucciato' , and it would mean 'sucking on a ciuccio' or 'geared up with a ciuccio'.


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## King Crimson

Some six months later I feel I can confirm that _stitch-up_ is a valid translation of _inciucio_ (see post #16), at least in a political context. Just to back up my claim I searched in the EO forum and found out this thread, where just about the same expression, _backstairs stitch-up_, is used.


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## Odysseus54

I had tested it with my wife yesterday ( native AE ) - she said it had something to do with sewing, no other metaphorical meanings known to her.  'Back door' , on the other hand, she immediately understood as meaning 'shady', 'sketchy' etc.


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## elfa

I've always translated this as "collusion".


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## King Crimson

Odysseus54 said:


> I had tested it with my wife yesterday ( native AE ) - she said it had something to do with sewing, no other metaphorical meanings known to her. 'Back door' , on the other hand, she immediately understood as meaning 'shady', 'sketchy' etc.



Kay Wallace (the journalist whose article I mentioned in post #16) and one of the users of the EO's thread are British and the other one is Aussie. The articles linked in my post and in the EO's thread are British too. Each native speaker using this expression seems to be well aware of its figurative meaning (just read the articles and the EO's thread). Bottom line, I think use of this term with that meaning is well documented (unless, of course, we are facing a case of AE vs. other English-speaking countries).


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## london calling

Elfa, _collusion_ doesn't sound right to me. _Incucio_ is similar in meaning to _intrallazzo, _for which the WRF dictionary suggests_ monkey business _(as in deceitful behaviour), which I rather like. A lot of monkey business goes on in Italian politics!

PS _stitch-up_ is perfectly clear to me as a speaker of BE: I wouldn't expect an American to understand it (or at least not necessarily).


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## King Crimson

london calling said:


> PS _stitch-up_ is perfectly clear to me as a speaker of BE: I wouldn't expect an American to understand it (or at least not necessarily).



So, that's maybe another addition for our BE/AE file (let's wait for a confirmation from other AE speakers, anyway...)


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## elfa

london calling said:


> Elfa, _collusion_ doesn't sound right to me. _Incucio_ is similar in meaning to _intrallazzo, _for which the WRF dictionary suggests_ monkey business _(as in deceitful behaviour), which I rather like. A lot of monkey business goes on in Italian politics!
> 
> PS _stitch-up_ is perfectly clear to me as a speaker of BE: I wouldn't expect an American to understand it (or at least not necessarily).



Point taken  I like "stitch-up" too.


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## Odysseus54

elfa said:


> I've always translated this as "collusion".



Unlike LC, I think that 'inciucio' is closer to 'collusion' than to 'intrallazzo'.  It indicates a tacit or secret agreement between parties that are supposed to be on the opposite sides of an issue, reaching a position that is , for one of both, substantially different from what their public stance is.

Tutti gli inciuci sono intrallazzi, ma non tutti gli intrallazzi sono inciuci.

However, I think that 'collusion' is a fairly neutral term, that lacks the slangy and derogatory tone of 'inciucio'.


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## joanvillafane

Confirming that I never heard "stitch-up" as a noun with this meaning before now.


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## london calling

Dai dizionari del corriere:

INCIUCIO 

È un termine che aleggia nella vita politica perché c’è spesso chi teme l’_inciucio_ tra opposti schieramenti, come conseguenza di manovre poco chiare. Il termine è tra quelli che segnarono, negli anni Novanta, la morte del cosiddetto _politichese_: il linguaggio tra l’astruso e l’aulico che aveva dominato per decenni la vita politica italiana (vedi *politichese: fu l’opposto di laconico*).
In realtà, l’uso di _inciucio_ per significare una combinazione sottobanco, un mettersi d’accordo di nascosto, è improprio ma talmente efficace, che l’improprietà è diventata uso comune. _Inciucio_, di provenienza dialettale napoletana e con una forte componente onomatopeica, è in origine il_cicaleccio_ tra comari: un significato ben diverso da quello che è venuto ormai ad assumere nel linguaggio del giornalismo politico, scalzando il più desueto _intrallazzo_. Il quale _intrallazzo_ è anch’esso parola dialettale, questa di origine siciliana, _ntirlazzu_ o _ntrallazzu_, cioè intreccio d’interressi, diffusasi a cavallo della seconda guerra mondiale, nel significato di scambio di merci o di prestazioni attraverso imbrogli, intrighi e illegalità: forse legata al mercato nero di quegli anni.
_Inciucio_ ha avuto successo forse anche perché è più delicato di _intrallazzo_, meno drammatico e con una sua carica d’ironia.
Ormai pienamente nell’uso.


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## Odysseus54

What I am saying is that 'inciucio' has a more specific and slightly different meaning that 'intrallazzo'.

Si puo' dire, per esempio, che la gestione della Protezione Civile e' stata piena di intrallazzi.  Non si puo' dire che ci siano stati inciuci.

La Bicamerale del 1997 e' invece l'esempio piu' noto di _inciucio_.  Una collaborazione tra partiti avversari avvenuta non sulla base di una discussione pubblica di principi e obbiettivi, ma in privato, pare intorno ad una crostata.  E' un contesto in cui non e' necessario che avvenga l'intrallazzo _nel significato di scambio di merci o di prestazioni attraverso imbrogli, intrighi e illegalita' _per avere l'inciucio.  

Nel caso della Bicamerale del 1997, per esempio, pare infatti che l'insipienza di uno dei due campi sia stato l'elemento decisivo, piu' che la cessione di benefici illeciti dall'altra parte.

Insomma, in quel caso, piu' che di un 'intrallazzo' dovrebbe parlarsi di una 'fregatura' - 'inciucio con fregatura'...


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