# Ukrainian: лицар



## Athaulf

I'd like to ask if someone can explain the exact meaning of this word (_лицар_) in Ukrainian. I looked it up in a dictionary, and the English translation is "knight", which makes sense in the context in which I saw this word. However, I'd like to know whether the word has some additional, more specific meaning in the context of Ukrainian history (i.e. referring to some specific historical military or aristocratic class, rather than just the generic notion of a medieval knight).


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## papillon

As far as I know, лицар (Russian: рыцарь) is just that - a generic knight, usually medieval. Also carries the related connotation of a "noble" spirit - knight, gentleman, _chevalier sans peur et sans reproche_, that sort of thing. I am not aware of any additional special meaning.


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## Sandra723

I am from Ukraine and can answer your question. In the Western part a young, distinguished and single man used to be called till the 2 part of XX century - the synonym is '*lehin*''. In Ukraine there have never been people in medieval ammunition. Never.


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## Viperski

I might be wrong but I red somewhere лицар sometimes were used as name for polish noble men in western Ukraine. Western Ukrainians called themselve as "kozaki" - the cossaks.


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## Blacklack

Judging by historical fiction (e.g. Gogol's) it seems the word _лицар_ could be applied both to noblemen (not necessarily of Polish origin) and Ukrainian cossacks *figuratively*. Its direct meaning though remained 'knight / Ritter / рыцарь'.


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## Sandra723

Viperski said:


> I might be wrong but I red somewhere лицар sometimes were used as name for polish noble men in western Ukraine. Western Ukrainians called themselve as "kozaki" - the cossaks.


but it has nothing to do with those of medieval ones riding horses with swords and shields



Blacklack said:


> Judging by historical fiction (e.g. Gogol's) it seems the word _лицар_ could be applied both to noblemen (not necessarily of Polish origin) and Ukrainian cossacks *figuratively*. Its direct meaning though remained 'knight / Ritter / рыцарь'.


yet, it has nothing to do with with the basic European concept


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## papillon

Sandra723 said:


> but it has nothing to do with those of medieval ones riding horses with swords and shields





Sandra723 said:


> yet, it has nothing to do with with the basic European concept



Hi *Sandra*, welcome to the forum!
rest assured that *no one* in this thread is trying to imply that Ukraine was full of medieval-style metal-clad Teutonic knights "with swords and shields". Still, the word лицар exists and Althauf was asking if this word has any "special" significance in Ukrainian history, the way that "kossac" and "hetman" do.

Does it "_have to do"_ with the "basic European concept"? Sure it does! We use this word to describe this basic European concept, even if we don't have anything exactly like that in our history, just like the word бегемот has everything to to with the basic African concept of a large herbivorous animal, even though no one has ever observed one of these creatures at the banks of my beloved Lopan'-river.


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## Sandra723

actually I meant _specific_ Ukrainian usage, right what somebody was asking for


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## Viperski

Sandra723 said:


> but it has nothing to do with those of medieval ones riding horses with swords and shields


And here you are wrong I think. Poland started to be among European Christian states in 966 taking Roman Catholic rite. That means all so called western European tradition and order happened to Poland as well. During medieval time Poland was a "'normal" feudal state with its king, clergy and knights state (exactly those riding horses with swords shields, coats of arms and banners) . Polish word "rycerz" means knight and it was borrowed from Germany. "Stan rycerski" - the knight state in north east part (Ukraine neighborhood) of Europe was common in Lithuania and Poland only. That did not exist in Belarusia, Ukraine and Russia. Knights slowly dissapiered in Europe at the end of XV centure (vide-don Kichote) so did in Poland. The knights state turned into nobel man (Polish "szlachta"). I think Ukrainian лицар comes from Polish "rycerz" becouse in XIV-XV century people who lived in Ukraine could only see knights from Poland or Lithuania I belive.
Here is a quote from the book "Ogniem i Mieczem" (With sword and fire) by Henryk Sienkiewicz - Bohun asks Wołodyjowski before a duel "gotów panie szlachcic, gotów panie лицар?" (are you ready sir nobleman, are you ready sir knight?) 
I'd like to know our Ukrainian friends oppinion, maybe there is another explonation.


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## Blacklack

I think your explanation is quite probable but mind you that Poles as well as Eastern Slavs had direct contact with German knights (Ritter) — Teutonic and Livonian. Those not only occupied modern-day East Prussia, Latvia and Estonia (and for a short spell of time Western Lithuania) but invaded Poland, North-Western Russia, Belarus' (they took Polotsk in 1307 and were driven out by Lithuanians), were among those fighting Mongols in 1241-43 and so on.

Btw, I've been always wondering how Sienkiewicz managed not to mention Bohun's name (Ivan) throughout the whole book? That was repeated in the film


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## Viperski

Blacklack said:


> I think your explanation is quite probable but mind you that Poles as well as Eastern Slavs had direct contact with German knights (Ritter) — Teutonic and Livonian. Those not only occupied modern-day East Prussia, Latvia and Estonia (and for a short spell of time Western Lithuania) but invaded Poland, North-Western Russia, Belarus' (they took Polotsk in 1307 and were driven out by Lithuanians), were among those fighting Mongols in 1241-43 and so on.
> 
> Btw, I've been always wondering how Sienkiewicz managed not to mention Bohun's name (Ivan) throughout the whole book? That was repeated in the film


Thank you Blacklack, I red the "With sword and fire" some 20 years ago and saw Hoffman film several times. I do not remember how was in the book but in the film Bohun is Bohun and I really thought till now it was his first name (I learnt from you his name was Ivan). 
Anyway there is another character in the book and in the film that in most cases everybody calls him with his surname "Pan Zagłoba". His name was Onufry Zagłoba but I do not remember if anybody called him "Pan Onufry". Usually szlachta called themselves using "Sir" and then "the first name", example: "Panie Michale" (adressing to Wołodyjowski)


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## Athaulf

I didn't expect such an interesting discussion would develop from this question.  Thanks to everyone for their contributions!


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## Viperski

Blacklack said:


> I think your explanation is quite probable but mind you that Poles as well as Eastern Slavs had direct contact with German knights (Ritter) — Teutonic and Livonian. Those not only occupied modern-day East Prussia, Latvia and Estonia (and for a short spell of time Western Lithuania) but invaded Poland, North-Western Russia, Belarus' (they took Polotsk in 1307 and were driven out by Lithuanians), were among those fighting Mongols in 1241-43 and so on.


I agree with you. That it was around 1240 when duke of Mazowsze (Mazowia) Konrad Mazowiecki invited few teutonic knights. Having a lot of problems with unchristianed Prussian the Duke ask teutons for help promising them whole Prussian land in return. That was really something like a miracle but those few knights (as I remember history at first there were only 10 or 12 persons) created a powerfull state during only 40 years killing all Prussian - there are only kurhans after pruusians now). Since beggining of XIV centuary they started inviding north part of Polish kingdom starting from Gdańsk (danzig - 1308) and then north Pommerania. Since Lithuanian started having problems with them it occured both Lithuanian and Pollish had common interest to resist teutonic knights. Offering a throne to Lithuania Duke Jogaila (pol. Władysław Jagiełło) new age in our history began. The new war with Teutons started in 1409 and both enemy armies met on the fields near vilage Grunewald (the other version is Tannenberg - lit. Żargilis). The monk-knights Teutons lost the beattle and escape to their capital Marienburgh. Polish-Lithuanian army moved to Marienburgh but they did not capture them finally.
Anyway the great victory did not bring a lot of advantages but firts time in Teutons history they lost. We may treat Grunewald as a turning point as since then Polish-Lithuania state was arising to power while Teutons tried to keep what they had. The story ended in 1525 in Cracow when the last Teuton master Albrecht Hohenzolern turned his teutons into "civil" people and paid a tribute to the king Zygmunt Stary on the Cracaw ring. The new "civil" teutonic state started to be called Prussia (after original Prussia) and as a state it was depended to Rzeczpospolita (The new state name for Polish-Lithuanian Union).


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## Blacklack

Viperski said:


> Thank you Blacklack, I red the "With sword and fire" some 20 years ago and saw Hoffman film several times. I do not remember how was in the book but in the film Bohun is Bohun and I really thought till now it was his first name (I learnt from you his name was Ivan).


You should have seen "Ivan_Bohun" in Wiki  (The rules won't let me post a url yet)


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## Blacklack

Viperski said:


> That was really something like a miracle but those few knights (as I remember history at first there were only 10 or 12 persons) created a powerfull state during only 40 years killing all Prussian - there are only kurhans after pruusians now).


Well, you're mistaken about 40 years. Prussian language survived till XVIIth or even XVIIIth century.



Viperski said:


> The monk-knights Teutons lost the battle and escape to their capital Marienburgh. Polish-Lithuanian army moved to Marienburgh but they did not capture them finally.


Mind you that there were a lot of Eastern Slavs in the Lithuanian army.



Viperski said:


> The story ended in 1525 in Cracow when the last Teuton master Albrecht Hohenzollern turned his teutons into "civil" people and paid a tribute to the king Zygmunt Stary


Teutonic knights started to pay that tribute from 1466 (as a result of another defeat).


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## Viperski

Just seen wikipedia.
he was the hero, indeed. As I see he was doing everything for his Ukraine.
Anyway searching for Ivan Bohun I found a first name for "With sword and fire Bohun". Now I remember - he was Jurko Bohun.  Agree?
One of my favorite sentence in the Hoffman film is Koshovy's sentence when dramatically informing Chmielnicki: "Bat'ku Getmanie, Lachy na nas idut" (Father Hetman Lachy - Poles - are going towards us)
We have an Ukrainian word here in Poland that clerly describe person with heavy and hudge courage that balance closely to madness "Kozak". In our common oppinion "Kozaks" were fantastic soldiers and brave men.


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## Blacklack

Viperski said:


> ...searching for Ivan Bohun I found a first name for "With sword and fire Bohun". Now I remember - he was Jurko Bohun. Agree?


Well, I don't remember (and am reluctant to look up in the book ) but I always had thought that Sienkiewicz meant Ivan Bohun.


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