# 江湖儿女



## parisaram

Hello,

I just watched the last movie by Jia Zhang-ke (one of the greatest directors in the world). The international title is "Ash is Purest White" and the Chinese title is 江湖儿女. I wonder what the Chinese title means (it was criticized by the Global Times editor here).

A translator gives me "children in the rivers and lakes", but various web sites (including the French Wikipedia) indicate that 江湖 (jiang hu) actually means the "underworld", for example in sword or kungfu movies.

So do you have an idea of the exact meaning of that title? Something like "Children of the underworld?" Note that this is not a kungfu movie, but it does describe people who live outside of legality and mainstream society.

Thanks!


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## Skatinginbc

parisaram said:


> various web sites (including the French Wikipedia) indicate that 江湖 (jiang hu) actually means the "underworld"


Yes, "underworld"--the part of society that is engaged in crime or vice. "儿女" means "men and women" (泛指男女) in the movie title.


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## HolyUnicorn

This is an interesting question. I agree with Skatinginbc on the meaning of the movie title. 儿女 literally means "men and women". I have a gut feeling that it implies a kind of brotherhood among gangsters. I might be wrong.

You might be interested in checking this. https://www.quora.com/How-would-you-translate-Jianghu-江湖-into-English

"I think the central idea is that _Jianghu _is a network of communities that operate independently of mainstream society, particularly as it relates to legality and what mainstream society deems legitimate livelihood. It is very close to "demimonde" or "underworld" as Brendan O'Kane says."

Edit: I am presenting this to show the core meaning of this concept.  Just like Skatinginbc said in post 3, 江湖 has multiple meanings, and its precise connotation depends on the context.


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## Skatinginbc

江湖 has multiple meanings, and its precise connotation depends on the context.  I haven't seen the movie.  The wikipedia says 《江湖兒女》是2018年中国大陆犯罪爱情片 and the main characters are 街头黑帮斌哥 (a street gangster) and 被判入狱五年的舞娘巧巧 (a female convict), so I assume 江湖 refers to "criminal word" and the movie title basically means "_men and women of the criminal world_".


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## philchinamusical

I think "江湖" in Chinese means a parallel social system against the official system. A little bit criminal, mafia-like but not so evil.

The legendary figures like Zorro and Robinhood would be called "江湖儿女" in Chinese.


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## Skatinginbc

Well, as I said, I didn't see the movie, and I don't know what the movie is truly about.  The exact context of the movie title is therefore elusive to me.  According to an article, "在电影中，江湖成为了一种象征散漫的、流动的、充满各种可能性的民间自治世界 (i.e., self-governed societies)，最终，被时代大潮慢慢吞噬."  If that is indeed the case, then the movie title could mean "men and women of the anarchist world".


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## NewAmerica

The most renowned 江湖 in China is penned by 金庸，which is 金庸的江湖世界。That is *a world of chivalry versus criminality* (or *heroes vs. evils*). So it is terribly wrong to say that 江湖 means "underworld" or "_the criminal world_."

  有人的地方必有江湖，必有侠义与罪恶的较量。江湖就是一个侠义与罪恶殊死搏杀的世界。


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## Skatinginbc

NewAmerica said:


> it is terribly wrong to say that 江湖 means "underworld" or "_the criminal world_."


Both 斌哥 and 巧巧 served the jail time.  They were criminals--persons who had committed a crime.  Please note that I said "_the criminal world_" (the world in which the criminals live; e.g., 自卑: "她很自卑曾是一個囚徒"; 自囚: "自以為心裡住著一個宇宙，不過是宇宙的囚徒"; 身不由己: 巧巧摸爬滾打學會坑蒙拐騙、以暴制暴，用種種荒誕的方式解決了難題...不願踏入江湖的她卻具備了如何行走江湖的能力), not "_the crime world_" (the world of crime, full of criminal activities--with an emphasis on criminality).

The film's English title "_*Ash* is the purest white_" is a metaphor for the purity (i.e., of 巧巧's loyalty to 斌哥) and strength of those (i.e., 巧巧 and 斌哥) who survive a "_*fiery transformation*_" (i.e., jail time and its aftermath). So I don't think "criminal world" is "terribly wrong".


NewAmerica said:


> 侠义与罪恶的较量。江湖就是一个侠义与罪恶殊死搏杀的世界。


From what I have read, the movie seems to be about 江湖之義 (義: 與誼同, fellowship, fraternity) and 兒女之情 (情: love, affection) between a man (斌哥) and a woman (巧巧).  It does not appear to be mainly about a struggle between "right" and "wrong" (Note: 俠: 同是非爲俠; 義: 與宜同; 俠義 is socially or morally right; 罪惡 is socially or morally wrong) or a battle between good people and bad people.


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## NewAmerica

The summary of the film speaks otherwise:



> 《江湖儿女》所讲述的，就是一个心怀道义的侠女，如何在现代社会惨遭蹂躏。
> <................................>
> 《江湖儿女》的结尾，*巧巧坚守住了侠义精神，坚守住了道义和善心*。
> 
> Source



  That is, according to the summary, the film basically follows the line of "*chivalry versus criminality* . "



Skatinginbc said:


> Yes, "underworld"--the part of society that is engaged in crime or vice. "儿女" means "men and women" (泛指男女) in the movie title.



Oxford dictionary defines "underworld" as "*The world of* criminals or of *organized crime*."  *With your "Yes" here*, I don't see the consistency of your explanation:



Skatinginbc said:


> I said "_the criminal world_" not "_the crime world_" (the world of crime, full of criminal activities--with an emphasis on criminality).


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## Skatinginbc

NewAmerica said:


> The summary of the film...


It is a viewer's interpretation, not a "film summary" (plot summary).  Even if it were a summary, it is not THE summary.


NewAmerica said:


> I don't see the consistency of your explanation


Why not?
the world of criminals = the criminal world = the world in which the criminals live

"Underworld" means "the world of criminals OR of organized crime".
It does not mean "the world of criminals AND of organized crime".

"You are either a man OR a woman" does not mean "You are both a man AND a woman."


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## parisaram

Thank you for all these interesting comments!

I later found an interview with the director (in French). He explains that the characters belong to gangs created around 1980 who follow ancient tranditions of _jianghu_. These gangs have a tradition of loyalty (which modern capitalists, in the movie, do not have) and respect the figure of Lord Guan. In the movie, one gang member stops lying when his master asks him to swear in front of a statue of Lord Guan.

The movie is about a man and a woman who have a difficult relationship from 2001 to 2017, and also about that loyalty and the changes the Chinese society has known in the last 20 years.

So I guess that the title is about these criminal traditions but also about the evolution of modern China. Translating it for international audiences would have been very difficult, so they chose another international title...


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## Skatinginbc

parisaram said:


> These gangs have a tradition of loyalty...these criminal traditions...


This is what I said "江湖之義".


parisaram said:


> about a man and a woman who have a difficult relationship


This is what I said "兒女之情".


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## Broccolee

江湖 is a non-existing place(often in a fiction or a movie) where hermits live.

儿女 means people here. And it gives me a feeling that these people are good at kong-fu or something(although you said no).


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## NewAmerica

Skatinginbc said:


> Why not?
> 
> the world of criminals = the criminal world = the world in which the criminals live
> 
> "Underworld" means "the world of criminals OR of organized crime".


 
        江湖艺人跑江湖是传统中国一大特色，你把江湖说成是 the world of criminals, 靠赚辛苦钱糊口的江湖艺人们岂不觉得自己比窦娥还冤？


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## Skatinginbc

難道你不知道士大夫退隱的江湖, 賣藝跑的江湖,  三合會 (the Triads) 混的江湖, 是不同的江湖？ 抬槓誰不會:
"士大夫退隱江湖是傳統中國一大特色，你把江湖說成是 chivalry versus criminality, 遁跡江湖憂其君的士大夫們豈不覺得自己比竇娥還冤？"


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## NewAmerica

居江湖之远而忧其君，正是担心君王难以坚守正义（与chivalry等义）、被小人或罪恶(等价于criminality)困扰。这种境界，不正是chivalry versus criminality?


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