# how to recognize that a noun in German is an adjectival noun or is not



## flyingwitch

Hello.

How can I recognize that a noun in German is an adjectival noun or is not?

I have already met these adjectival nouns in German:

der Bekannte / ein Bekannter - the acquaintance / a acquaintance
das Bekannte / ein Bekanntes - the known / a known
der Jugentliche / ein Jugentlicher - the adolescent / an adolescent
der Erwachsene / ein Erwachsener - the adult / an adult
der Angestellte / ein Angestellter - the employee / an employee

Yesterday I was looking for translation of "a homeless man" into German, and I have found in my dictionary entry: "Obdachloser m". And I created a sentence: "Der Obdachloser schläft." And it was wrong, because it should be without the letter "r" at the end. I would like to avoid making the same mistake twice.

Thank you.


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## Kajjo

Hm, did I miss the point?

"Obdachloser" verhält sich genau wie deine anderen Beispiele. Wieso hast du vermutet, dass es anders sein müsste?

_obdachlos > der Obdachlose, ein Obdachloser_

examples:

_Der Obdachlose muss im Freien schlafen.
Ein Obdachloser musste im Park schlafen._


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## flyingwitch

Hello Kajjo. The point is the question. If I find a word in a dictionary, like the "Obdachloser m", how do I recognize if it is an adjectival noun or not?


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## Kajjo

lewinwitch said:


> If I find a word in a dictionary


A good dictionary should tell you and give the proper declination.

See here: Duden | Obdachloser | Rechtschreibung, Bedeutung, Definition, Herkunft

The Duden states in the first paragraph "substantiviertes Adjektiv, maskulin" and down in grammar section it even gives the declension with definite and indefinite article.

German is a difficult language with a lot of rules and a lot of exceptions and a lot to memorize. A good dictionary is a valuable companion. Duden is reliable.


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## flyingwitch

Thank you Kajjo. So every time I learn a new noun in German, I have to use Duden to find out, whether or not is it an adjectival noun?

Currently I use cc dict dictionary. And there there is no way how to tell.

homeless person | Übersetzung Englisch-Deutsch


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## Kajjo

lewinwitch said:


> So every time I learn a new noun in German, I have use Duden to find out, whether or not is it an adjectival noun?


Well, the more fluent you become, the more easy it will be to know the according adjective or to guess. But yeah, essentially, you have to look up new words in order to learn them properly.

I recommend to ALWAYS learn nouns together with the article and in case of adjectival nouns you have to remember that. Sorry, it's as bad as that.


lewinwitch said:


> Currently I use cc dict dictionary


That is not a proper dictionary in the linguistic sense. CC is sometimes quite interesting to find translations rapidly if you already know them and just can't think of them. But for learning new words, the entire context, meaning, explanation is missing as well as all grammar indications. This just doesn't work. It's not enough to learn a language. By far not. Select a proper linguistic dictionary.

Collins has grammar notes (_decline as adjective_), too. See here:
English Translation of “Obdachlose” | Collins German-English Dictionary
English Translation of “Bekannte” | Collins German-English Dictionary

I recommend Duden for all relevant questions.


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## flyingwitch

Thank you Kajjo for your insightful posts. I will consider using a new dictionary.

Isn't there some kind of a rule, saying that e.g. if a singular form of a noun ends with "r", then it is / or at least could be an adjectival noun?


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## Kajjo

lewinwitch said:


> Isn't there some kind of a rule, saying that e.g. if a singular form of a noun ends with "r", then it is / or at least could be an adjectival noun?


No, sorry. Note that most adjectival nouns come in female and male form (eine Bekannte, ein Bekannter) and there are many nouns ending on -e or -e that are non-adjectival noun. 

As a very (!) rough rule of thumb you might come to attention as soon as such a noun describes a person. But again, you need to know the meaning and thus look up in a good dictionary anyway.


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## anahiseri

By the way. . . . . 
ein kleiner Fehler, nicht schlimm, aber dennoch wert, berichtigt zu werden:  der *Jugendliche* mit  *d *!  (Jugen*d*)

hm. . . wert oder Wert ?


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## Kajjo

anahiseri said:


> wert oder Wert ?


_a) wert sein -- einen bestimmten Wert haben
b) wert sein -- einer Sache würdig sein

Es ist wert, berichtigt zu werden. <Bedeutung b>_


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## anahiseri

lewinwitch, can you give us more examples of nouns which pose this problem for you?
I have never come across anybody asking this and I'm curious to see if I could find an explanation that helps you.


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## Gernot Back

Kajjo said:


> Note that most adjectival nouns come in female and male form (eine Bekannte, ein Bekannter)


Isn't it rather *all but one* adjectival noun? Can you think of any exception besides _*der* Beamt*e*/ein Beamt*er*_, but _die/eine Beamt*in*_?
_Die Grünin(nen)_ is actually just a hoax.


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## JClaudeK

lewinwitch said:


> So every time I learn a new noun in German, I have to use Duden to find out, whether or not is it an adjectival noun?


For words like "der, die  Kranke/  der, die Kleine/ der, die Studierende/ ..... " you should be able to see at first the  sight that they are "*Nominalized adjectives*", don't you?


P.S. Das hier aus Mein deutschbuch.de könnte Dir helfen:


> Theoretisch können alle Adjektive und Partizipien nominalisiert werden, das heißt, dass sie wie ein selbständiges Nomen gebraucht werden. [....]  Alle nominalisierten Adjektive und Partizipien sind zwar Nomen, werden aber wie Adjektive dekliniert.
> 
> Nominalisierte Adjektive und Partizipien bezeichnen *Personen* oder *Abstrakta*. Einige nominalisierte Adjektive werden sehr häufig gebraucht. Die gebräuchlichsten Adjektive [und Partizipien] zeigen folgende Tabellen auf.


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## Kajjo

Gernot Back said:


> Isn't it rather *all but one* adjectival noun?


Ich verstehe nicht, was du meinst. Alle substantivierten Adjektive dieses Schemas kann man männlich oder weiblich verwenden, siehe #13.



Gernot Back said:


> Can you think of any exception besides _*der* Beamt*e*/ein Beamt*er*_, but _die/eine Beamt*in*_?


Beamter ist not a adjectival noun. 

_beamtet > der Beamtete, die Beamtete <rarely used, because a proper noun exists>_


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## Gernot Back

Kajjo said:


> Beamter ist not a adjectival noun.


Maybe it's not a de-adjectival noun (nominalized adjective), but it sure is inflected as an adjective.


			
				canoonet.eu said:
			
		

> Inflection of _Beamte_
> 
> *Word class:* Noun
> *Article:* der
> *Inflection class:* Adjectival


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## JClaudeK

Kajjo said:


> Beamter ist not a adjectival noun.


Wie kommst Du darauf?
Edit: Die meisten  Partizipien verhalten sich wie Adjektive.

_Folgende Partizipien II werden sehr häufig als selbständiges Nomen gebraucht:_ (Adjektive und Partizipien als Nomen - mein-deutschbuch.de)


*beamtet*beamten _(Verb)_Der Arbeitgeber *aller Beamten* ist der Staat.


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## Kajjo

Gernot Back said:


> but it sure is inflected as an adjective.


True, and that is indeed an exception. German is difficult...


JClaudeK said:


> Wie kommst Du darauf?


Weil ich einen Unterschied sehe zwischen "substantiviertem Adjektiv" und "abgeleitet von einem Adjektiv".

_beamtet > Beamteter <substantiviertes Adjektiv>_


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## JClaudeK

Kajjo said:


> Weil ich einen Unterschied sehe zwischen "substantiviertem Adjektiv" und "abgeleitet von einem Adjektiv".


Beachte bitte mein _Edit_.
Partizipien sind nicht  "_abgeleitet von einem Adjektiv_", sondern von einem Verb.



Kajjo said:


> Note that most adjectival nouns come in female and male form (eine Bekannte, ein Bekannter)


"der, die  Bekannte" ist auch von einem Partizip II abgeleitet  ..........


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## Kajjo

JClaudeK said:


> Partizipien sind nicht "_abgeleitet von einem Adjektiv_", sondern von einem Verb.


Partizipien sind abgeleitet von Verben, logisch. Verändert das dein Argument? So oder so ist "der Beamte" nicht abgeleitet durch Substantivierung eines Adjektivs, denn "beamtet > ein Beamteter" wäre die korrekte Ableitung. 

Es gibt offensichtlich eine davon unabhängige Ableitung "Verb/Partizip > Substantiv", z.B._ mieten > Mieter; sehen > Seher. _


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## Perseas

lewinwitch said:


> How can I recognize that a noun in German is an adjectival noun or is not?


In addition to the replies above:
If you recognize adjectival endings, like _-lich / -ig / -isch / -los / -bar / - haft / -sam / -voll_, then the word is an
adjectival noun.
E.g. der Einsame.



lewinwitch said:


> So every time I learn a new noun in German, I have to use Duden to find out, whether or not is it an adjectival noun?


In any case, for a non-native, like me or you, it's always useful to consult a good dictionary.
As JCK said, for words like "der Kranke" or "der Kleine", you can already see that they are adjectival nouns.
Experience comes with time and practise.


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## Dymn

Looking at my vocabulary list, most nominalized adjectives come from participles (_Außensteh*end*er, Eingeweih*t*er,_ _Hinterblieb*en*er..._), adjectival endings (_Sachverständ*ig*er, Opposition*ell*er, Sterb*lich*er, ..._), or from adjectives you most likely already know (_Fremder, Toter, Linker_...).

I use the WordReference dictionary and Wiktionary. Both give the gender and declension of every noun.


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## anahiseri

I'm  still wondering where lewinwitch's  problem is. All the adjectives mentioned by Dymn, by JClaudeK and by himself are inflected like the ones he mentioned (Iincluding Obdachloser). And for this declension the simple rule is: don't use the ending *r, m, s* more then once. *e, n,* can be used several times.
*DER *Erwachsen*E    /     EIN *Erwachsen*ER*
also in other cases:
Sie gibt *DEM *kleine*N*  Jungen ein Geschenk.    
*EIN*  gute*S* Buch.       Er hat *DAS *gute*E *Buch gekauft.


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## Perseas

anahiseri said:


> I'm  still wondering where lewinwitch's  problem is.


How can one be sure that X is a nominalized adjective, and should be declined as an adjective, or a noun.
A random example: der Obdachlose vs der Arbeitnehmer.


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## flyingwitch

Thank you all for your posts.

@anahiseri: I will try to illustrate the problem on an example. Let's say that you want to say in German: "The book is green.". You go to cc dict and you find that "the book" is "Buch n" in German. So you say: "Das Buch ist grün.". Correct. Done. Now another sentence: you want to say: "The homeless person is tired.", you go to cc dict to find out that "homeless person" is "Obdachloser m" in German. So you create a sentence: "Der Obdachloser ist müde.". And it is WRONG. (It should be: "Der Obdachlose ist müde.").

Do you see it now?

Kajjo suggested using different dictionary, that I should use, when learning new words, especially nouns, to find out, if it is not an adjectival noun.

But I am still in search for a method to tell from a word if it is or not an adjectival noun.


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## anahiseri

I understand. But I dare  give you a piece of advice: whenever you come upon a masculine noun that ends *R*,  inflect it like an adjective. Maybe i'm being a bit bold, because I haven't checked it, but I think it could be a good bet. Not 100% perhaps, but not much less.-----
Added after a few minutes: -----I've just seen a counterexample: DER ArbeitnehmeR. And have found two more myself: DER MaleR, DER FühreR. But they have something in common: they are derived from an Infinitive by just substituting an R for the N. Maybe I've come across a rule that is useful for learners....... I'm not sure yet.


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## Boyar

First, I must say I use *Duden*.  However ... 


lewinwitch said:


> Currently I use cc dict dictionary. And there there is no way how to tell.
> 
> homeless person | Übersetzung Englisch-Deutsch


Yes, there is!
I clicked on your link to discover that Obdachloser {m}  in the Deutsch column is *clickable*, too.
So, I clicked on Obdachloser and the new page gave me this table:





> obdachlos | - | -
> obdachloser | obdachlose | obdachlosesder Obdachlose/ein Obdachloser | die ObdachlosenBerber | Clochard | Herumtreiber
> 
> 
> [TD valign="top"]
> *ADJ*
> [/TD]
> [TD valign="top"]
> ​
> [/TD]
> 
> [TD valign="top"]
> *NOUN*
> [/TD]
> [TD valign="top"]
> ​
> [/TD]
> 
> [TD valign="top"]
> *SYNO*
> [/TD]


The first line that starts with *ADJ* tells you that the word in the *NOUN* line below is an *adjectival noun*.
The ADJ line gives you the adjective that was used as the _root_ to form the adjectival noun.
The NOUN line gives the declension (Definite / Indefinite | Plural).


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## Kajjo

lewinwitch said:


> But I am still in search for a method to tell from a word if it is or not an adjectival noun.


There is none. Forget it.

You will recognise adjectival nouns if you remember the corresponding adjective. If not, no chance.

A good dictionary will tell you immediately whether a noun is based on a adjective.


lewinwitch said:


> Kajjo suggested using different dictionary, that I should use, when learning new words, especially nouns, to find out, if it is not an adjectival noun.


Please turn to a proper dictionary like Collins or Duden. An excellent dictionary is the essential and indispensable foundation of any language acquisition. Please, really, find a better dictionary with grammar notes, pronunciation notes, context examples, declension patterns and so on.


Boyar said:


> So, I clicked on Obdachloser and the new page gave me this table:


Interesting, that even CC has some grammar notes. Anyway, I would never rely on CC.


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