# la cosa più importante del festival è l'uva



## Shanks78

Hello everybody,

in order to translate " la cosa più importante del festival è l'uva" , should I say:

- The  most important thing in the festiva is the grape

- The most important thing in the festival are the grapes


Thanks a lot to any who could help


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## PublicJohnDoe

Nel senso di "uva" si usa solo il plurale _grapes_... il singolare di solito si usa per incicare il singolo acino.


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## Teerex51

Um...PJD, I don't know about that. 

Grape is simply _uva_.  Also see this Grape Festival.


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## PublicJohnDoe

Teerex51 said:


> Um...PJD, I don't know about that.


I looked around a bit, and it seems you're perfectly right... funny, I always used the plural...
Sorry for the unintended misinformation, Shanks!


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## Akire72

In ogni caso io l'everei l'articolo, no?

Secondo me è:

"The most importatnt thing of the festival is grape". 

O meglio, al contrario: "Grape is the most important thing of the festival/is the main theme of the festival"


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## DavideV

Hello, I would say

"Grape is the centerpiece of the Festival"


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## Teerex51

This would actually make for a pretty interesting discussion. 


Under the entry "uva" the WRF dictionary says: _(npl) grapes_, although _grape_ (singular) would have also been totally appropriate.

The fact is (in my opinion at least) there's no clear cut IT<> EN correspondence.

_Uva_ is grape or grapes
_Acino_ is grape (also see an interesting but not conclusive thread here).

On the other hand


Grape is the generic translation of _uva_, but grapes also works.
Grape is also the single berry.

Usage does not help much, either...


Cannonau is a famous Sardinian grape
Grape is a fruit or a fruit-bearing vine
White grapes are evolutionarily derived from the purple grape.
Would you like some grapes?
A grape got stuck in his throat.

So where's the rule?


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## Tonza

In ordinary usage

*grape* = a single berry: _chicco/acino_
*grapes* = _uva_
*a bunch of grapes* = _un grappolo d'uva_

The singular "grape" can also be used, as in some of Teerex's examples, to refer to the variety or to refer to grapes in general.

_This is a fresh, fruity grape grown in Burgundy, Champagne, California, Australia, and South Africa._

But I would never offer you _a grape_; that would be stingy. I'd offer you _some grapes_.

However, the choice of the singular in "Grape Festival" is due to a different rule in English, not to the specific usage of _grape_ versus _grapes_. We often use the singular form as an adjective, even if it clearly refers to a plural entity. For example,

Eyeglasses (for two eyes), not eye*s*glasses
Dishwasher (washes many dishes), not dish*es*washer

So a Grape Festival is a festival of _grapes_.

As for your sentence, I think either the plural or the singular would work:

*The most important thing about the festival is the grapes.* (I prefer this version.)
*The most important thing about the festival is the grape.* (The use of the singular makes "grape" assume a broad meaning.)


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## Akire72

Well, this is a little bit confusing also in Italian. You say "uva" to mean the fruit, but you say "uve" to say the different kinds of grapes.

Un vino fatto da diverse uve (means using different kinds of grapes, like sauvignon, chardonnay etc. etc.)

It could also be possible to say:

Il tema centrale del festival sono le uve del Piemonte.


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## Teerex51

How about _The grape is the star/the main attraction of the festival_?


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## Paulfromitaly

The grapes are the highlight of the festival.


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## TimLA

Teerex51 said:


> How about _The grape is the star/the main attraction of the festival_?


 
My 0.0146 Euros (given today's exchange rate):

If the festival is about a single type of grape, say, sangiovese:
The grape is the star/main attraction/most important part of the festival.
The star/main attraction/most important part of the festival is the grape.

If the festival is about many types of grapes, the you might use the singular, as a more 'philosophical' metaphor for all grapes:
The grape is the....
The most important part of the festival is the grape.

If in Italian the singular "uva" can *imply* both singular and plural, then maybe:
Grapes are the...
The most important part of the festival is grapes.


All I know, is this thread *better be* about *wine* and not table grapes!


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## Teerex51

TimLA said:


> All I know, is this thread *better be* about *wine* and not table grapes!



Hear, hear!

(The best-looking _table_ grapes are made of plastic anyway)  (just kidding)


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## Einstein

My two eurocents:
grape = 1) acino 2) vitigno
grapes = 1) uva 2) vitigni

We really need more context. In the absence of this I would stay close to the original:
"la cosa più importante del festival è l'uva"
_The most important thing in/about the festival is the grape_ (a specific grape, e.g. Sangiovese)
... i_s grapes_ (and not cheese, salame or another fruit)
... _is the grapes_ (if we've already mentioned certain grapes).

One point that no one has mentioned: Shanks 78 proposes:
_The most important thing in the festival are the grapes_. 

Not possible! It's true that the word "grapes" is plural, but in English the subject is strictly "the most important thing", which is singular, so "is".


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## Odysseus54

And if we flip it ?  As in " Grapes are the most important thing in the festival "  ?


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## Einstein

Odysseus54 said:


> And if we flip it ? As in " Grapes are the most important thing in the festival " ?


That would certainly solve the is/are problem, but it changes the emphasis. It may be fine this way too, but we can't be sure without more context.


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## Odysseus54

Interesting - in Italian subject and predicate are what they are regardless of the position in the sentence :

"La cosa piu' importante sono i nuovi modelli" 

"I nuovi modelli sono la cosa piu' importante"


How would that be in English :

" The most important thing is the new models " (doesn't sound too good to me)

" The new models are the most important thing " ?



Or is it that 'grapes' is grammatically a plural, but it really is an uncountable noun, so that the position becomes the deciding factor ?  As in :

" The most important thing is the people " 

but

" The people are the most important thing "

What do you think ?


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## Lorena1970

Odysseus54 said:


> "La cosa piu' importante sono i nuovi modelli"
> 
> "I nuovi modelli sono la cosa piu' importante"



Secondo me anche in italiano l'enfasi di queste due frasi è diversa. Ma credo si stia andando off-topic...?


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## Odysseus54

Lorena1970 said:


> Secondo me anche in italiano l'enfasi di queste due frasi è diversa. Ma credo si stia andando off-topic...?



Non sto discutendo l'enfasi, ma la concordanza.  Einstein ha detto, implicitamente, che a cambiare l'ordine delle parole si inverte la funzione di soggetto e di predicato, giustificando cosi' l'alternanza "is/are" nella frase sull'uva.

La conclusione mi trova d'accordo, sulla motivazione ho dei dubbi che mi piacerebbe chiarire - non e' proprio off-topic, e' una discussione della traduzione e della grammatica sottostante, direi - almeno spero


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## Lorena1970

Hai ragione, ero rimasta concentrata sulla puntualizzazione di Einstein relativa all'enfasi....
Attendiamo lumi da lui!


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## Shanks78

Odysseus54 said:


> And if we flip it ?  As in " Grapes are the most important thing in the festival "  ?



Well, in the end, I like this solution best. One of my doubts was also related to the usage of the plural "are", and that is cleared up too.

Thanks everybody (I should have known I'd have found so many people interested in a grape festival ;-)


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## Einstein

Odysseus54 said:


> Is it that 'grapes' is grammatically a plural, but it really is an uncountable noun, so that the position becomes the deciding factor ? As in :
> " The most important thing is the people "
> but
> " The people are the most important thing "
> What do you think ?
> No, it's nothing to do with countability/uncountability (and in any case "people" is just an irregular plural; it's countable).
> 
> Interesting - in Italian subject and predicate are what they are regardless of the position in the sentence:
> "La cosa piu' importante sono i nuovi modelli"
> "I nuovi modelli sono la cosa piu' importante"
> 
> How would that be in English :
> " The most important thing is the new models " (doesn't sound too good to me) I'm afraid it's right!
> " The new models are the most important thing " ?
> But what tells you that "the most important thing" is not the subject?


In English the subject comes before the verb (except in questions).
If I tell you that I have a problem, you can ask me what problem.
When I begin to reply, with "My problem is...", there is nothing to suggest that "My problem" can't be the subject of the sentence.
If I finish with "... is my house", I don't think you will say that "my house" has suddenly become the subject. So why does this change when I say, "My problem is my children"? Must "my children" necessarily be the subject, just because it's plural? Not in English, but this has always intrigued me in Italian. Can you clarify the reasoning?


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## Lorena1970

@ Einstein: chapeau!


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## CZac

Odysseus54 said:


> How would that be in English :
> 
> " The most important thing is the new models " (doesn't sound too good to me)
> 
> " The new models are the most important thing " ?
> 
> 
> 
> Or is it that 'grapes' is grammatically a plural, but it really is an uncountable noun, so that the position becomes the deciding factor ?  As in :
> 
> " The most important thing is the people "
> 
> but
> 
> " The people are the most important thing "
> 
> What do you think ?



Nell'uso 'grapes' è un sostantivo colletivo (collective noun) quindi è singolare grammaticalmente.  Significa 'the collection of grapes' o 'the heap of grapes' e così dipendendo dalforma della collezione che è indicata prima.


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## Einstein

Non sono d'accordo. È un plurale e basta; non diventa qualcos'altro solo perché in italiano è singolare/uncountable.


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## Odysseus54

Einstein said:


> In English the subject comes before the verb (except in questions).
> If I tell you that I have a problem, you can ask me what problem.
> When I begin to reply, with "My problem is...", there is nothing to suggest that "My problem" can't be the subject of the sentence.
> If I finish with "... is my house", I don't think you will say that "my house" has suddenly become the subject. So why does this change when I say, "My problem is my children"? Must "my children" necessarily be the subject, just because it's plural? Not in English, but this has always intrigued me in Italian. Can you clarify the reasoning?



I wish I could.  It's not simple - I will try to clarify my own thoughts on this as I go.

1) "I figli sono il problema"  -  here we have a sentence where , by looking at the verb, the subject is 'i figli'.

2) "Il problema sono i figli"    3) "Il problema e' i figli"  - in the first sentence, the subject still seems to be "i figli" , in the second "il problema", just by looking at the verb.  However, since after all we are looking at a 'A=A' identity, it is not that easy to identify 'a senso' which is the subject and which the predicate.  

So it is possible that in 2) the plural for the verb is caused by proximity, flow etc ( between 2 and 3 I would tend to prefer 2, although I find 3 acceptable ).

But , the more I think about it, the more I believe that , 'a senso', the plural, as more 'concrete' tends to prevail over the more abstract definition as the subject, and the more abstract definition tends to slide into the predicative function - although I have found no 'rule' that states that.

" La famiglia sono Paolo e Giovanni " / "Paolo e Giovanni sono la famiglia" 

" La famiglia e' Paolo e Giovanni "  OK, but not that natural


" Il problema e' l'avarizia e l'egoismo " 

" Il problema sono l'avarizia e l'egoismo " 

" Il problema sono i debiti e le poche entrate "  

" Il problema e' i debiti e le poche entrate "   Awkward





Regarding 'grapes', 'people' etc, you are absolutely right - I made a huge confusion between uncountables etc. trying to explain a difference between English and Italian that I had not yet understood completely 'in theory', although I do encounter it daily.

In fact , I think it is as simple as 'in English the subject comes before the verb, except in questions', whereas in Italian this is not true, so if you have a sentence like 

" Il problema sono i figli "  , the subject is 'i figli'

and if you have

" Il problema e' i figli " , the subject is 'il problema'.


Salvo errori od omissioni.


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## CZac

Einstein said:


> Non sono d'accordo. È un plurale e basta; non diventa qualcos'altro solo perché in italiano è singolare/uncountable.



Yes, it seems you're correct.  Inverted copular sentences in English seem to be the only way to make a minor part of a sentence into a major part; placing the minor part of a non-inverted sentence into the subject of a sentence seems to be the only way to make it into the topic of the sentence and thus a major part.

Example:

The grapes are the most important thing.
The most important thing is the grapes.

But in Italian, it seems as though the inversion doesn't change the copula.

What is the difference between the following two sentences in Italian?

Gianni è il dentisto.
Il dentisto è Gianni.

Does the second sentence make sense, or is it really odd?


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## Odysseus54

" In questa stanza ci sono Roberto e Gianni.  Uno dei due e' falegname, l'altro e' dentista.  Chi e' il dentista ? "

" Il dentista e' Gianni " 


Oppure :

" Chi e' il dentista ? "  ( trying to establish the dentist's identity )

" Il dentista e' Gianni "



" Gianni e' il dentista " is correct, but it feels as if something is missing.  For instance " Gianni e' il dentista ( di Roberto ) "


Both sentences are correct - but which is the subject and which the predicate ?


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## Akire72

On this subject, I just watched a film (Fish Tank) where at a certain point the mother shouts at her teenage reckless daughter:
"What's your problem???" 
and the girl shouts back:
"You is my problem!" 
I found it awkward because I thought that in Italian it would always be "Sei tu il mio problema" or "Tu sei il mio problema". In Italian you always make the personal pronoun agree with the verb.
Wouldn't it be more correct to say "You are my problem"? I agree that "My problem IS you" is correct, but the other way around seems awkward to me. I reckon it must be my Italian ears...


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## Einstein

You are my problem
My problem is you

These are the normal forms; I would never say "You is my problem", it sounds wrong to my English ears too.
It could be that in this dialogue the daughter wants to point out that while her mother sees the problem as something impersonal (with "is"), the real problem is her mother: "Tu! Ecco qual è il mio problema!" But I'm only guessing.


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## Akire72

Oh... wow... am I growing English ears too then?? Well, she emphazises YOU a lot and she pauses a little before saying "is my problem".
Maybe it's just teenage slang. I don't think the fact that the film is set in Essex counts for anything, or does it?


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