# rumknutschen



## jamesjaime

_*rumknutschen ...*_

does this mean to flirt? To kiss? To canoodle?

_"I habe mit mein Freund *rumgeknutscht*"._


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## JClaudeK

jamesjaime said:


> "Ich habe mit mein*em* Freund *rumgeknutscht*".
> To canoodle


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## elroy

"To cuddle" is far more common in American English.  It "to canoodle" really common in British English??


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## JClaudeK

elroy said:


> It "to canoodle" really common in British English??



Im Cambridge Dictionary stehen folgende Definitionen:

1) cuddle: to put your arms around someone and hold them in a loving way, or (of two people) to hold each other  close to show love or for comfort: 
_She cuddled the baby and eventually it stopped crying.
 They sat in the back row of the cinema kissing and cuddling._

2) canoodle: If two people canoodle, they kiss an hold each other *in a sexual way. 
*
Wichtig ist bei "_*rumknutschen*" in a sexual way._


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## elroy

Keine Sorge, "cuddle" passt perfekt. 

Ja, es könnte in anderen Kontexten etwas anderes bedeuten, aber das ist halt das Wort, das im Amerikanischen mit der Bedeutung "rumknutschen" verwendet wird. "Canoodle" habe ich nur einmal gehört, in der Serie "Friends", und auch dort wurde es scherzhaft verwendet. Keiner nimmt Dich ernst, wenn Du "canoodle" sagst!

Ich habe gerade @analeeh, einen Briten, gefragt, der bestätigt hat, dass auch im Britischen "canoodle" nicht besonders häufig vorkommt, aber mehr dazu lasse ich ihn selber schreiben, wenn er mag.


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## Hutschi

I found
rumknutschen : Englisch » Deutsch | PONS

To have snog, to have a smooch, to snog.

Herumknutschen often produces a Knutschfleck. (Love bite)
You can expect this in the given context.

It is also part of petting.

PS:
In some context it means to kiss, but seldom in the given context.

Die knutschen schon wieder rum. Is usually: Now these persons are kissing again. (Slightly
pejorative.)
This is a kind of bad speech mostly of old ladies about others.

Children mean mostly kisses when speaking about rumknutschen.


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## elroy

Hutschi said:


> Herumknutschen often produces a Knutschfleck.


 That would be "making out" in American English.  I wasn't sure if "rumknutschen" encompassed that.


Hutschi said:


> (Love bite)


 "hickey" in American English


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## Hutschi

Herumknutschen depends on context, of course.
It has a range of nuances, depending who says it, and I am not sure if it is even used symmetrically between man and woman.
Usage also depends on age.

But we have:

_"Ich habe *mit meinem Freund rumgeknutscht*"._

This is typically for young adults (friend and girl friend), and so I think it includes all (kisses, hickey, cuddle, canudle) - but sex is a later state.

The sequence is: flirten, knutschen (herumknutschen), sex

"Herumknutschen/rumknutschen" is a kind of "knutschen" for some time, with alternating intensity.

-----
One question. I suppose: It is reported by a woman. (It could be two men but there is no hint.)

Note: If you mean a girl friend it is "Freundin".


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## Frieder

elroy said:


> "making out"


That would be _rummachen _which is the next step after _rumknutschen _but not yet the f-word. _Canoodle _sounds quite funny and points at _knuddeln _which is the most innocent form of _knutschen_. I always thought that _to smooch_ means _knutschen_. Or does it lack sexual innuendo?


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## elroy

"Smooch" isn't really used in American English, so a British English speaker will have to answer you.


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## Kajjo

elroy said:


> Ja, es könnte in anderen Kontexten etwas anderes bedeuten, aber das ist halt das Wort, das im Amerikanischen mit der Bedeutung "rumknutschen" verwendet wird


That's really strange, because cuddling and kissing are different things with totally different connotation. How do you know what is meant?

_(1) Ich habe den ganzen Abend mit Sabine gekuschelt / geschmust.
(2) Ich habe den ganzen Abend mit Sabine herumgeknutscht._

(1) is about holding one another, embracing, caressing, stroking in an affectionate way, while (2) is mostly about teenager kissing intensively in a somewhat unmature manner. If you apply "knutschen" on adults, you usually imply unmature or infatuated behaviour.

So, how would you translate (1) and (2) for clear distinguishment?

Collins dictionary give no indication whatsoever that "cuddle" could be "knutschen".



jamesjaime said:


> "I habe mit mein Freund *rumgeknutscht*".


Again, this is intensive and quite long kissing in a somewhat teenager-like, unmature manner. It is sexually connotated, but usually several steps before the two will actually have sex with each other.


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## elroy

1 is cuddling, 2 is making out.

Does "rumknutschen" have to involve making out, or can it be just cuddling or touching but without anything intense?


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## Kajjo

elroy said:


> 1 is cuddling, 2 is making out.


All dictionaries say different, hm.



elroy said:


> Does "rumknutschen" have to involve making out, or can it be just cuddling or touching but without anything intense?


Maybe you use the word "making out" differently, too. Collins explains it as "to make love, to have sex". That is entirely different from "Herumknutschen".

Again, "herumknutschen" is just very intensive, prolonged, teenager-like kissing and maybe a little bit of fumbling. It is not at all about having sex. Nothing about nakedness or about intimiate parts, just unmature prolonged kissing. 

"Kuscheln" is about embracing, caressing each other, often without a primary sexual connotation.


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## elroy

Kajjo said:


> All dictionaries say different


 I think I'm lost at this point.   Anyway, not to be rude, but with regard to these words, I really don't care what dictionaries say.   These are everyday words used all the time, and I feel like dictionaries probably fail to fully capture the ways they're used in real life.


Kajjo said:


> "Kuscheln" is about embracing, caressing each other


 This is "cuddling."


Kajjo said:


> often without a primary sexual connotation


 I think this depends on what you mean by "sexual" (and maybe this is part of the confusion here).  I would consider any cuddling between two people who are sexually attracted to each other / who have some type of sexual chemistry between them to be _sexual_ to a certain extent, although it is of course very low on the intensity scale. 





Kajjo said:


> "herumknutschen" is just very intensive, prolonged, teenager-like kissing and maybe a little bit of fumbling fondling


 This is "making out."

In American English, we use a baseball metaphor to refer to "how far you go" with someone: first base, second base, third base.  I guess the highest level would be a "home run," but I don't think I've heard that used; people often say they went "all the way."  Anyway, this metaphor might help us with our discussion.

Cuddling (holding, touching, caressing, stroking, embracing, etc.) is at most first base, maybe not even.  Some might feel like at a minimum some amount of kissing is required for first base.  But cuddling sometimes involves some gentle kissing; the boundaries are fluid!

Making out (which, in American English, does _not_ include sex!) is first base or second base, depending on how intense it is and which body parts it involves and how many.  It always involves sexual kissing, but it's vague as to what exactly was done, for how long, how intense it was, etc.

Third base for me would probably have to involve genitalia (things like oral sex, etc.), maybe BDSM, etc.

And a "home run" or "going all the way" would involve penetration.


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## Hutschi

The Duden gives for "knutschen"

Duden | knutschen | Rechtschreibung, Bedeutung, Definition, Synonyme, Herkunft

heftig umarmen, küssen o. Ä.

There is a certain intensity.

I think "heftig umarmen, küssen" are usually connected in this situation.

It is a big difference to just and only kissing. (Example "Gute-Nacht-Kuss", kissing good night)

---

Note that it is often pejorativ. "Der hat gestern mit deiner Freundin rumgeknutscht." (This is usually not appreciated.)

---
herumknutschen can be in a park, at a station or at other places, while sex is not accepted in public.

---

style: coll., sometimes pejorative, especially when used by others, not if you speak about yourself.

"Knutschen" has the same meaning, but is more neutral. It is what you are doing, herumknutschen is about how you are doing it, basely for a longer time with repetitions.

---

Herumknutschen is often a situation where in a movie the young brother or sister or (son or daughter when the mother found a new partner after the death of the old one)  watches it and starts to laugh secretly and gladly ...


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## Kajjo

elroy said:


> Anyway, not to be rude, but with regard to these words, I really don't care what dictionaries say.


Naturally,  I trust what you claim about English. But I am sure you misunderstand the German words.



elroy said:


> Cuddling (holding, touching, caressing, stroking, embracing, etc.) is at most first base, maybe not even.


Agreed.

_to cuddle = schmusen, kuscheln_



elroy said:


> This is "cuddling."


Agreed, but in #3 you identified "knutschen" as "cuddling". This is most certainly wrong. That caused the misunderstandings.



elroy said:


> I would consider any cuddling between two people who are sexually attracted to each other / who have some type of sexual chemistry between them to be _sexual_ to a certain extent,


Yes, agreed. But "kuscheln" does not imply the sexual perspective. You can use "kuscheln" with animals, children, parents or even platonic best friends without any sexual connotation. The sexual aspects arises only, if we know more about the relation of the two cuddling persons. With my girlfriend, "kuscheln" will be sexual, because she is my girlfriend, not because of the word itself.



elroy said:


> Making out (which, in American English, does _not_ include sex!) is first base or second base, depending on how intense it is and which body parts it involves and how many. It always involves sexual kissing, but it's vague as to what exactly was done, for how long, how intense it was, etc.


Probably, there is a difference to British Englisch then.

"Making out" is "herummachen". Very vague, covering exactly what you mean with first and second base.

Again, "herumknutschen" is focussing very strongly on the intensive kissing. Not the making out. I really have the impression you misunderstand the word "knutschen".

Replace "knutschen" by "küssen" and the same basic action is meant -- only the connotation of teenage-wise, unmature behaviour and prolonged kissing is missing. "Knutschen" is basically kissing, but not making out. "Knutschen" might be a part of "making out", i.e. the kissing, not the fumbling or caressing.


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## Kajjo

One more idea: British "to snog" might be quite close to German "knutschen"?


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## elroy

Kajjo said:


> in #3 you identified "knutschen" as "cuddling"


 That was based on JClaudeK's response in #2, in which he gave "canoodling" as a translation.  We would not use "canoodle" in American English; we would use either "cuddling" or "making out," depending on what was done.  I have to admit that because I'm not familiar with the word "canoodling," I may have erroneously equated it with "cuddling" when maybe I should have equated it with "making out." 


Kajjo said:


> But "kuscheln" does not imply the sexual perspective


 Same with "cuddle"!  Context is everything. 


Kajjo said:


> Again, "herumknutschen" is focussing very strongly on the intensive kissing. Not the making out.


 In American English, making out can be just kissing!  It sounds to me like "making out" covers both "herumknutschen" and "herummachen."  I guess in English we don't have a perfect equivalent of "herumknutschen"; we would say either "kissing" or "making out" and leave the rest to context (or leave it ambiguous!).


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## JClaudeK

Kajjo said:


> Again, "herumknutschen" is just very intensive, prolonged, teenager-like kissing and maybe a little bit of fumbling.


For me, "(he)rumknutschen" means more than _very intensive, prolonged, teenager-like* kissing, _it always implies (a bit of)  fondling.
*By the way: Why _teenager-like kissing_? Do you think that teenagers don't know how to kiss 'properly'?


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## elroy

So are "herumknutschen" and "herummachen" synonymous for you, JClaudeK?

(I don't know if you noticed my correction in #14, but in American English, it's not "fumbling"; it's "fondling."  "Fumbling" may be okay in British English, but I doubt it.)


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## JClaudeK

elroy said:


> So are "herumknutschen" and "herummachen" synonymous for you?


Yes, they are more or less.
"herummachen" is just a bit more "intensive" (for some people - it depends):
_Die meisten Userinnen sind sich einig: *Rummachen betrifft das Spektrum von Zungenkuss bis Petting*. Einige wenige würden letzteres nicht mehr dazu zählen. Sex ist für alle bis auf eine nicht im Begriff "rummachen" enthalten._
Was versteht ihr unter Rummachen? - Antworten, Tipps & Infos



elroy said:


> it's not "fumbling"; it's "fondling.


Thanks.


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## Kajjo

elroy said:


> So are "herumknutschen" and "herummachen" synonymous for you


Come on, "herummachen" und "herumknutschen" are different things with a certain overlap. "Knutschen" definitely focuses on kissing, "herummachen" focuses on the sexual aspect of touching each other. Of course, both might be combined in many cases, but linguistically the focus is very clearly different.

We try to be clear about focus and connotation with other verbs, too. Otherwise we do not need to be linguistically sophisticated anymore at all. 



JClaudeK said:


> Why _teenager-like kissing_? Do you think that teenagers don't know how to kiss 'properly'?


I explained that above. It's more about unmature, prolonged kissing rather than more. Todays teenager are possibly more mature... probably "knutschen" is even in the years before that... who know's.


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## berndf

elroy said:


> So are "herumknutschen" and "herummachen" synonymous for you, JClaudeK?


_Rumknutschen_ only includes things that one might do in public or semi-public (like a party). _Rummachen_ can include things where you definitely don't want others watching.


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## elroy

berndf said:


> _Rumknutschen_ only includes things that one might do in public or semi-public (like a party). _Rummachen_ can include things where you definitely don't want others watching.


 So I was right; both of these are "making out" in English.  If you want to be more specific in the latter case, you could say something like "an intense makeout session."


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## Hutschi

Kajjo and me, we have lots of differences, in this case I fully support his explanation.

By the way, is canoodle cognate with "knuddeln"?

In my opinion herumknutschen has the components küssen and knuddeln.
You use the mouth for kisses and the hands and the arms, and maybe the head, for "knuddeln".


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## berndf

Hutschi said:


> Kajjo and me, we have lots of differences, in this case I fully support his explanation.
> 
> By the way, is canoodle cognate with "knuddeln"?
> 
> In my opinion herumknutschen has the components küssen and knuddeln.
> You use the mouth for kisses and the hands and the arms, and maybe the head, for "knuddeln".


_Knuddeln_ just means _cuddling_ and, though it may occur between lovers, has no sexual implications; on the contrary, it expressed a very "innocent" form of affectionate body contact.

Using knuddeln is any way to describe what _rumknutschen_ means is bound to create confusion.


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## Kajjo

berndf said:


> it expressed a very "innocent" form of affectionate body contact


I agree, "knuddeln" is colloquial for a very innocent form of cuddling, usually shorter in time, usually with a tighter embrace. I would summarize it as "tight, affectionate embrace".

Some dozens years ago this term was not known to me. I believe it to be regional Non-Northern. However, nowadays, it is used everywhere. The adjective "knuddelig" was more common in childhood than the verb "knuddeln".


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