# Direction of ir and venir



## gengo

In this thread, we discuss how these verbs can be used, depending on the location of the speaker and the listener, but since the thread is not about this topic, I wanted to open another one for that express purpose.

I was taught that, in general, venir is only used when the speaker is already located at the place being discussed.

Ven a mi casa a las dos.  (Ya estoy en casa en este momento)
Hay una fiesta el lunes.  ¿Puedes ir?  (Ahorita no estoy en el lugar de la fiesta)

However, in the above thread, it was pointed out that sometimes that rule does not apply.  Can anyone give me a set of rules that will help me decide when I can and can't use venir and ir?


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## Lurrezko

También usamos *venir* con el sentido de *acompañar* (ir en compañía del hablante):

_Mañana voy al fútbol. ¿Quieres venir?_

Por otro lado, en toda la zona catalanoparlante (gran parte de la franja mediterránea española) es frecuente, aunque erróneo, el uso de venir por ir, por interferencia del catalán.

Saludos


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## Agró

*Ven *a la zona catalanoparlante y lo comprobarás.

(y no estoy en esa zona ahora mismo)


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## gengo

Thanks, Lurrezko.  That makes sense, because it is sort of an ellipsis of "venir conmigo."  However, in the above-mentioned thread, a native Spanish speaker says "Dime si piensas venir para saber cuántos somos y reservar mesa."  In that case, it is clearly not used in the sense of _acompañar._


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## gengo

Agró said:


> *Ven *a la zona catalanoparlante y lo comprobarás.
> 
> (y no estoy en esa zona ahora mismo)



So now I'm really confused, and think the general rule I was taught is useless.


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## Miguel Antonio

Poco más puedo decir que lo dicho en el otro hilo, y es el uso coloquial, que no sé si es o no correcto.


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## Agró

gengo said:


> Thanks, Lurrezko.  That makes sense, because it is sort of an ellipsis of "venir conmigo."  However, in the above-mentioned thread, a native Spanish speaker says "Dime si piensas venir para saber cuántos somos y reservar mesa."  In that case, it is clearly not used in the sense of _acompañar._


On the contrary, in this case it means "venir conmigo/con nosotros (a la cena)"


gengo said:


> So now I'm really confused, and think the general rule I was taught is useless.


Debe de ser algo que tiene que ver con los _afectos_. Aunque no estoy ahora mismo en esa zona, la siento propia o cercana y por eso te invito a venir, no a ir a ella.


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## Csalrais

En el ejemplo que se propone en el otro hilo el hablante se coloca en el lugar de la acción porque él sabe que va a estar allí en ese momento pero la persona con la que habla todavía no lo ha decidido. Las posibilidades de que use *venir* en vez de *ir* aumentan, y mucho, si él/ella es una de las personas que organizarán el acto.


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## Lurrezko

gengo said:


> So now I'm really confused, and think the general rule I was taught is useless.



Creo que Agró está bromeando con el uso habitual entre catalanoparlantes (Agró es catalán adoptivo). No me atrevo a opinar, amigo Gengo, en este punto estoy demasiado contaminado por mi otra lengua materna.

Saludos


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## gengo

Agró said:


> Debe de ser algo que tiene que ver con los _afectos_. Aunque no estoy ahora mismo en esa zona, la siento propia o cercana y por eso te invito a venir, no a ir a ella.



OK, that helps a little.  But this issue underscores the fact that I will never be fluent in Spanish.  

Thanks to all!


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## bondia

Lurrezko said:


> Por otro lado, en toda la zona catalanoparlante (gran parte de la franja mediterránea española) es frecuente, aunque erróneo, el uso de venir por ir, por interferencia del catalán.
> 
> Saludos



Exactamente. Si bien diría "influencia" en lugar de "interferencia" sin ánimo de polémica
Es un error frecuente de los catalanoparlantes al hablar castellano. Intento evitarlo, pero ya que vivo inmersa en el catalán hace 40 años, a veces caigo..


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## bailarín

It *is* quite disheartening and a little earth-shattering when a rule that you've known for so long is broken.  I think if you choose to speak standard classroom Spanish, it is always a safe bet; however, colloquial Spanish is something that I've found that can really only be learned through chatting with heritage speakers via SMS, email, videogames, phone conversations, watching movies and face-to-face.  Good to know that I am not crazy on this one.


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## Miguel Antonio

bondia said:


> Es un error frecuente de los catalanoparlantes al hablar castellano.


 Y por lo visto, de los gallegoparlantes también.  Habrá que esperar la respuesta de un nativo "puro".


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## blasita

gengo said:


> Ven a mi casa a las dos.  (Ya estoy en casa en este momento)
> Hay una fiesta el lunes.  ¿Puedes ir?  (Ahorita no estoy en el lugar de la fiesta)



A ver, que no soy una nativa pura.

Hablo de mi uso. En la primera diría solamente 'ven'. En la segunda, diría 'ir' en general; 'venir' si yo tengo algo que ver con la fiesta: voy a ella, la organizo, etc.

Un saludo.


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## bondia

gengo said:


> I was taught that, in general, venir is only used when the speaker is already located at the place being discussed.
> 
> Ven a mi casa a las dos. (Ya estoy en casa en este momento)
> Hay una fiesta el lunes. ¿Puedes ir? (Ahorita no estoy en el lugar de la fiesta)



Yes, but, if I'm in Barcelona and say to a friend in Madrid that I will be going there at the weekend, should I say "vendré a Madrid" or "iré a Madrid"? He/she is already located there.

Your example "ven a mi casa", is imperative, not future tense.


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## Agró

bondia said:


> Yes, but, if I'm in Barcelona and say to a friend in Madrid that I will be going there at the weekend, should I say "vendré a Madrid" or "iré a Madrid"? He/she is already located there.



"Iré a Madrid".

Given the circumstances (after 40 years in an '_ir-venir_ chaotic area') you would be forgiven if you said "vendré".


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## edw

bondia said:


> Yes, but, if I'm in Barcelona and say to a friend in Madrid that I will be going there at the weekend, should I say "vendré a Madrid" or "iré a Madrid"? He/she is already located there.
> 
> Your example "ven a mi casa", is imperative, not future tense.



_Iré a Madrid_, because *you* are not in Madrid when you are saying that.


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## bondia

Agró said:


> "Iré a Madrid".
> That's what I say when I concentrate
> 
> Given the circumstances (after 40 years in an '_ir-venir_ chaotic area') you would be forgiven if you said "vendré".
> It happens...



Saludos


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## duvija

bailarín said:


> It *is* quite disheartening and a little earth-shattering when a rule that you've known for so long is broken. I think if you choose to speak standard classroom Spanish, it is always a safe bet; however, colloquial Spanish is something that I've found that can really only be learned through chatting with heritage speakers via SMS, email, videogames, phone conversations, watching movies and face-to-face. Good to know that I am not crazy on this one.



OK, and what's the difference for us, poor souls, when we have to learn English? Keep your ears glued to any talk-shows...


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## blasita

OK, to sum up, in my neck of the woods it's quite easy:

*IR*  there/where you are.

*VENIR:* the opposite. Come to where I am; come with me where I go (is this understandable? Hope so.)

Un saludo.


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## gengo

Let me see if I understand this.  In English, we can say the following.

(On the phone)
-I'm watching the game right now.
-Can I come over?

-Estoy mirando el partido ahora mismo.
-¿Puedo ir (a tu casa)?  (y no con "venir")

(On the phone)
-After the game, we're going out for pizza.  Do want to come?
-Después del partido, salimos a comer pizza.  ¿Quieres venir?  (aunque todavía no estamos en la pizzería)

¿Vale?


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## Lurrezko

En la primera diría _¿puedo venir?_ sin dudarlo. Estaría mal, claro. El uso de *ir* es perfecto en ese contexto, aunque quizá diríamos más naturalmente _¿puedo pasarme/acercarme?_

Saludos


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## Csalrais

gengo said:


> Let me see if I understand this.  In English, we can say the following.
> 
> (On the phone)
> -I'm watching the game right now.
> -Can I come over?
> 
> -Estoy mirando el partido ahora mismo.
> -¿Puedo ir (a tu casa)?  (y no con "venir")
> 
> (On the phone)
> -After the game, we're going out for pizza.  Do want to come?
> -Después del partido, salimos a comer pizza.  ¿Quieres venir?  (aunque todavía no estamos en la pizzería)
> 
> ¿Vale?


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## bailarín

VENIR: It can also mean, "come to where I will be," too, right?

My friend emailed me "me caso el año que viene en (un lugar que no está actualmente ni que no estoy) y tienes que venir..."


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## gengo

Thanks again to all of you who have taken time to help me.

Bailarín, yes, that is how I understand it.  Thanks for the thread that led me to this new knowledge!


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## bailarín

Great little morsels of knowledge and nuances.  Today has been a good learning day for me.  Thanks to you, too, tomodachi gengo.


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## Csalrais

Como aclaración final según como yo los uso, en la segunda frase de gengo *ir* y *venir* son ambos posibles pero el uso de venir resalta el hecho de que vas a la pizzería *con nosotros*, es más afectuoso y cercano.

Curiosamente, a una pregunta como esa no respondería "vendré" sino "iré" o "claro que voy".


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## _SantiWR_

gengo said:


> In this thread, we discuss how these verbs can be used, depending on the location of the speaker and the listener, but since the thread is not about this topic, I wanted to open another one for that express purpose.
> 
> I was taught that, in general, venir is only used when the speaker is already located at the place being discussed.
> 
> Ven a mi casa a las dos.  (Ya estoy en casa en este momento)
> Hay una fiesta el lunes.  ¿Puedes ir?  (Ahorita no estoy en el lugar de la fiesta)
> 
> However, in the above thread, it was pointed out that sometimes that rule does not apply.  Can anyone give me a set of rules that will help me decide when I can and can't use venir and ir?



The use of ir/venir in Spanish is a no-brainer, not nearly as random as go/come in English. The only exception I can think of now is when you invite the other person to come to a place where you are not in this moment, but you will be when he or she gets there. So:

_Hay una fiesta el lunes. ¿Puedes venir?_ I'm somehow inviting you or expecting you to come if you are part of the usual crowd, so it is like saying: are you joining me/us?
_Hay una fiesta el lunes. ¿Puedes ir?_ I'm not going to be there or, if I am, your presence there doesn't depend upon mine in any way.

So, to sum up, I agree with blasita: the more I have to do with the party the more likely I would use venir.


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## Aviador

Except for duvija, all the colleagues that have given their opinion here so far are from Spain. I must say that the usage in Chile at least (I'm not sure about the rest of America) is different. We would never here say _"Hay una fiesta en casa de Juan mañana. ¿Quieres venir?"_ if we are not there at that moment. That construction would frankly sound odd here. Even if that implies an invitation to come along, we would always say _¿Quieres ir?_ If we feel the need to make clear that the invitation is to come along, we would then say _¿Quieres ir conmigo?_
So I think that we always here say _venir_ when we are there already and _ir_ when we are not; in any circumstance.


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## bailarín

bailarín said:


> VENIR: It can also mean, "come to where I will be," too, right?
> 
> My friend emailed me "me caso el año que viene en (un lugar que no está actualmente ni que no estoy) y tienes que venir..."



Perhaps it varies even within the Americas.  My friend is from Cuba.


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## gengo

Aviador said:


> We would never here say _"Hay una fiesta en casa de Juan mañana. ¿Quieres venir?"_ if we are not there at that moment.



Aviador, debo confesar que respiro un poco más tranquilo al oír eso.  La mayoría del español que he aprendido proviene de México, y creo (o creía, hasta hoy) que en ese país el costumbre es como tu lo describes.  Pero de todos modos me ha sido buenísmo saber las opiniones de los otros foreros sobre este asunto.

Gracias.


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## _SantiWR_

Aviador said:


> Except for duvija, all the colleagues that have given their opinion here so far are from Spain. I must say that the usage in Chile at least (I'm not sure about the rest of America) is different. We would never here say _"Hay una fiesta en casa de Juan mañana. ¿Quieres venir?"_ if we are not there at that moment. That construction would frankly sound odd here. Even if that implies an invitation to come along, we would always say _¿Quieres ir?_ If we feel the need to make clear that the invitation is to come along, we would then say _¿Quieres ir conmigo?_
> So I think that we always here say _venir_ when we are there already and _ir_ when we are not; in any circumstance.



Well, as I said, the use of venir for joining me o coming along with me is the exception, so your usage and mine are not that different, actually are nearly the same. In fact, when I ask you _¿vienes al cine conmigo?_ at least literally I'm telling you to come to the place where I am so that we can go the cinema together. No exception at all. On the other hand, we've learnt it may be different with people in Spain whose first language is not Spanish.


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## blasita

_SantiWR_ said:


> Well, as I said, the use of venir for joining me o coming along with me is the exception, so your usage and mine are not that different, actually are nearly the same. In fact, when I ask you _¿vienes al cine conmigo?_ at least literally I'm telling you to come to the place where I am so that we can go the cinema together. No exception at all. On the other hand, we've learnt it may be different with people in Spain whose first language is not Spanish.



Agreed.


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## Aviador

_SantiWR_ said:


> […] when I ask you _¿vienes al cine conmigo?_ at least literally I'm telling you to come to the place where I am so that we can go the cinema together. […]


Maybe that is the difference. In the case of such an invitation, we would only think of the place of our destination, not where we agree to meet.


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## duvija

Aviador said:


> Maybe that is the difference. In the case of such an invitation, we would only think of the place of our destination, not where we agree to meet.



And here comes the interesting part. The telephone. Almost any discussion would be incomplete if we don't think about phone calls. 

Would you say : ¿venís al cine conmigo? even if you are miles away from your friend, and just on the phone with him/her? Assume the movie theatre is not close to either of the speakers. (I believe I would still use 'venir' in that case)

And my latest craziness. Does Skype make a difference? (for me, yes. But I haven't read any literature relevant to this issue. Plus I know how little I can trust anyone who's too sure about some new usage).


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