# my heart my soul my daughter.



## Tattoodan

Good morning all

i am looking to find the Latin translation of the following;

my heart my soul my daughter. 

It is for a tattoo for myself so I want to ensure I get it right. 

Many thanks


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## bibax

*cor meum anima mea filia mea

COR MEVM *·* ANIMA MEA *·* FILIA MEA*     (in upper case)


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## Tattoodan

Hi thanks.

How come it "meum" has a U in it in lower case but a V in upper case?

Thanks


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## bibax

1) The ancient Romans used (knew) only the capital letters ABCD....TVXYZ, no U,J,W.

2) In the past (Middle Ages) it was customary to use the capital letter (majuscule) V and the minuscule u in the manuscripts, for example Vniuersus (now written Universus).

Thus it is still customary (but not obligatory) to use the majuscule V in the inscriptions written in upper case.

Note: the term lower/upper case came with the mechanical typewriters along with the Shift key.


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## jrundin

The Romans had only capital letters (or, as I will call  them, "majuscule" letters); there were no lower case letters (or, as I will call them, "minuscule" letters); they were developed much later as a variant way of writing the alphabet. SO THE ROMANS WROTE EVERYTHING IN MAJUSCULE LETTERS. In the Roman alphabet, there was only one letter, "V." It was used as a vowel with the sound,  more or less, of English "u" and as a consonant with the sound of English "w." When minuscule letters were developed, this letter took the form "u."  So "u" was originally the minuscule version of  the majuscule "V." 

Through a complex development, minuscule "u" developed two forms, "u" and "v." Eventually, "v" came to be written for this letter's use a consonant and "u" for its use as a vowel; while only the form "V" was used for majuscule letters. Eventually, a second majuscule developed, "U," and now there are two letters ("U," "u" and "V," "v")—one for vowel sounds, one for consonant sounds—where originally there was only one. There are different conventions nowadays how to write Latin using these two letters. Probably the most fashionable one is to write the majuscule "V" and the miniscule "u." And that's the convention used by Bibax here. I will say that Latin looks odd to me when it is written with the "new" majuscule "U" instead of "V."

By the way, Bibax also used raised dots, called interpuncts, to separate elements of the phrase. That's a nice touch. You can google
"interpunct" to find out more about them.


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## Tattoodan

Thanks both of you.

So if I were to have it tattooed do you suggest it as; 

*COR MEVM *·* ANIMA MEA *·* FILIA MEA*

Thanks


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## bibax

IMHO, "COR MEVM · ANIMA MEA · FILIA MEA" is correct (with the "cool" Latin capital letter V).

Albeit my suggestion always will be "Think twice, cut once!".


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## CapnPrep

bibax said:


> 1) The ancient Romans used (knew) only the capital letters ABCD....TVXYZ, no U,J,W.





jrundin said:


> The Romans had only capital letters (or, as I will call  them, "majuscule" letters); there were no lower case letters (or, as I will call them, "minuscule" letters); they were developed much later as a variant way of writing the alphabet. SO THE ROMANS WROTE EVERYTHING IN MAJUSCULE LETTERS.


As I pointed out in passing in another thread, while it is true that the Romans were case-insensitive , and that for monumental writing they used letter forms that look pretty much exactly like today's uppercase letters, it is a mistake to believe that all Roman writing looked like this, and that what we know today as lowercase letter forms were completely absent in ancient times. This wax tablet from Pompeii is a rare surviving example of everyday handwriting, and it shows in particular how the letter in question looks at least as much like a ‹u› as it does a ‹V›.


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## jrundin

That's a good point, CapnPrep, and a more accurate way of stating the situation. Thanks. 

Obviously, writing will vary from medium to medium, particularly in a situation where there
is no printing and therefore the letters have less stable forms.
Before printing, the forms of letters vary from place to place and time to time rather like 
dialects of written language.  Moreover, what works (very straight lines, for instance) when one
is chiseling inscriptions will not necessarily work when one is using a stylus to scratch wax.
Generally, I think changes in media are major causes for changes in letter forms.


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## Tattoodan

Hi, thanks so much for your responses, so is the consensus- 

*COR MEVM ANIMA MEA FILIA MEA*
*(my heart my soul my daughter)

*I also wondered if this is how her D.O.B would be in roman numerals and spaced out like so? I am from England so we do it DD-MM-YYYY. 
*XVI X MMXI (daughter’s D.O.B 16-10-2011)

Thanks*


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## jrundin

Yes, that looks good to me. 

Myself, I would either use interpuncts or write it all together without spaces.

CORMEUMANIMAMEAFILIAMEA

OR

COR·MEUM·ANIMA·MEA·FILIA·MEA

But really, it's your choice. The way Bibax did it is fine. 
(By the way, interpuncts don't have to be dots; they can be triangles or even
little florettes. They're worth googling to get an idea of the choices.) 

The Romans did dates differently from us, and the calendar has gone through changes, 
so it's hard to answer your question about the date of birth. There are several
conventions depending on whether you want to use the old Roman system or the
Gregorian system or some  combination. I'd start by looking at
http://thomo.coldie.net/archive/www.guernsey.net/~sgibbs/roman.html
to get a handle on the issues and decide what direction you want to go. Then I'd ask here again. 
If this is for a tattoo, you want to get it right.


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## Tattoodan

Hi thanks. 

But could i do the date in complete roman numerals as october is october in latin so defeats the object of having that as the tattoo. 

So id like XVI X MMXI rather than XVI October MMI. 

Would it make sense?

Thanks


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## fdb

bibax said:


> Note: the term lower/upper case came with the mechanical typewriters along with the Shift key.



The terms "upper" and "lower case" came in long before the invention of the typewriter. They refer to the boxes ("cases") in which hand-set type was stored on the compositor's desk.


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## Tattoodan

So to confirm upper case

*COR MEVM *·* ANIMA MEA *·* FILIA MEA*

*Lower case change V to U? *

*Thanks*


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## bibax

You can see how the motto of the Commonwealth of England "Pax quæritur bello" is written on the Cromwell's coin 1656.

*· PAX · QVÆRITVR · BELLO ·*

Or UK coins before 1952: *GEORGIVS VI* (Georgius VI)



Larger pictures of these (and many other) coins are available on Wikipædia.


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## bibax

> So I'd like XVI X MMXI rather than XVI October MMXI.


XVI X MMXI is quite incomprehensible. I should prefer *XVI OCTOBRIS MMXI* or *XVI · OCT · MMXI *_etc.

_


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## Tattoodan

So if go lower case i change V to a u?


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## jrundin

Tattoodan said:


> So if go lower case i change V to a u?



Lower case and upper case are a modern thing so they have less relevance to 
Latin, but, there are at least two modern conventions. 

1) The letter "V" is written as a "V" in upper case and as "u" in lower case.
2) When it is a vowel write "u" and when it is a a consonant write "v." 

Personally, if I were doing this, I would forget all about upper and lower case
and seek out a nice alphabet--perhaps an "uncial" one--and just use it.


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