# de cuius hereditate agitur / is de cuius morte agitur



## frenchspanish

What does _cujus_ mean? It is in a french law document but since it is in italics a assume it is a latin term and therefore remains the same in English...


----------



## Anne345

cujus is a relative or interrogative pronoun in genitive case.  
cujus = whose


----------



## frenchspanish

O, a soliciter just told me it translates in english as 'the deceased' because the context is inheritance from a will. So there you are!


----------



## Kevin Beach

frenchspanish said:


> O, a soliciter just told me it translates in english as 'the deceased' because the context is inheritance from a will. So there you are!


Well, I'm a solicitor and I don't see how cujus (cuius) can mean "the deceased".

I think we'd need to see the context before commenting any further. Can you post it, please?


----------



## Anne345

http://www.proz.com/kudoz/spanish_to_english/law:_contracts/834214-de_cujus.html


----------



## Kevin Beach

Anne345 said:


> http://www.proz.com/kudoz/spanish_to_english/law:_contracts/834214-de_cujus.html


Okay, so "de cujus" is a _Spanish_ phrase meaning "the Deceased".

But this is the _Latin_ forum!


----------



## Anne345

cujus is a latin word.


----------



## Kevin Beach

Anne345 said:


> cujus is a latin word.


Yes, I know.  But in Latin it doesn't mean "the deceased", even if it means it in Spanish.

And, to be precise, the Latin version is *cuius*, meaning "whose"


----------



## Anne345

> And, to be precise, the Latin version is *cuius*, meaning "whose"


 
Of course, see post # 2 ! 
cuius or cujus depends of regional use.


----------



## Flaminius

Hello frenchspanish,

First of all welcome to the WordReference forums!  I hope you will have a lot of language fun and learning or either...

I am just wondering if you could post the whole French sentence where you found _cujus_.  Since it is a relative pronoun, _cujus_ can mean "of the deceased" but we are not sure yet.  We, including the resident solicitor KB, may come to the same conclusion as that of your solicitor, but we are dying to know the right answer by ourselves.


----------



## Pinairun

Anne345 said:


> Of course, see post # 2 !
> cuius or cujus depends of regional use.


 

_De cuius_:

 La personne dont on parle. 
Il s'agit de sa succession.


----------



## piraña utria

Hi there:

I'm writing just to add "de cujus/cuius" has a currently usage within Colombian legal texts (treatises, Civil Code, jurisprudence) to name "the deceased" either.

I’ve just noticed by this thread that this is an ancient wrong, or incomplete at least, translation.

Regards,


----------



## Kevin Beach

Pinairun said:


> _De cuius_:
> 
> De la personne dont on parle.
> Il s'agit de sa succession.


I interpret that as translating the Latin phrase "De cuius" into French as "De la personne dont on parle", meaning "Of the person of whom one is speaking". That's straightforward.

Then there is the clause "Il s'agit de sa succession", which I interpret to mean "It concerns his/her succession".

We still need more context. I can imagine that there was something in (perhaps mediaeval) Latin, concern the estate of a deceased person. The phrase "de cuius" arose, being a reference back to a previous mention of the deceased. However, I still know of no usage whereby *(de) cuius* on its own means "the deceased".


----------



## Kevin Beach

Anne345 said:


> Of course, see post # 2 !
> cuius or cujus depends of regional use.


I don't think the variation between *cuius* and *cujus* is regional.

In classical Latin it was always *cuius* because there was no letter *J/j* at that time. As a matter of mediaeval orthography, it came to be written as *cujus* in some scripts, which eventually gave us the letter *J/j* in various languages. However, classicists still write *cuius* and I think that most modern versions of mediaeval texts have reverted to *cuius* too.

Because so much legal language used to be based on mediaeval Latin, there may be some historical legal texts (in English Law, as well as in Roman-Dutch legal traditions) in which the letter *j* is substituted for the letter *i*. If so, it is a particular usage and not a general one.


----------



## Pinairun

de cuius, is the abbreviated form of:

"de cuius bonis agitur", que significa "aquella persona de cuyos bienes se trata."


En Derecho, se emplea para designar a la persona cuya sucesión queda abierta.

From Gran Enciclopedia LAROUSSE.

Sorry, I don't know how to say it in English.


----------



## CapnPrep

Here it is in Latin: Vicipaedia


----------



## Kevin Beach

CapnPrep said:


> Here it is in Latin: Vicipaedia


Thank you!

So it is an abbreviation of the Latin *de cuius hereditate agitur* or *is de cuius morte agitur*, meaning "(he) whose estate it concerns" or "he whose death it concerns".

The _full_ quotation can now be interpreted as "the deceased". Perhaps a convention has developed  in Civil (i.e. Roman-Dutch) Law jurisdictions of using the abbreviation "de cuius".

Have we got any civil lawyers here who can tell us?


----------



## Twinmeister

It wasn't that KB, if you look at the subject of the very first post, it gives the two quotes in full. He only questioned one word, added the full interpretation from somewhere else - hence the misunderstanding


----------



## Cagey

Twinmeister said:


> It wasn't that KB, if you look at the subject of the very first post, it gives the two quotes in full. He only questioned one word, added the full interpretation from somewhere else - hence the misunderstanding



The original post, and the original thread title, was only "*de cuius*".  Thus, the beginning of the the discussion is an effort to make sense of these words in isolation. 

KB found two phrases from which "de cuius" has been derived in the Vicipaedia link provided by CapnPrep.    KB put them in the post you are responding to, and they were added to the thread title.  KB's post was a response to the original question, and something we were all curious about.


----------



## ampurdan

Yes, here in Spain we do use "de cuius" to mean "the deceased". Actually, it's not su usual to talk about "the deceased" (el difunto) in inheritance law contexts as such, but about "el causante", the person who "has caused the succession". "De cuius" is used too, but not so often.


----------



## piraña utria

Hi there:

By the way, coming backwards the original point, has anyone idea about how French or Spanish Legal System or another one reduced the title's expression into a mere "_cuius/cujus_"?

Regards,


----------



## Kevin Beach

piraña utria said:


> Hi there:
> 
> By the way, coming forwards the original point, has anyone idea about how French or Spanish Legal System or another one reduced the title's expression into a mere "_cuius/cujus_"?
> 
> Regards,


As I mentioned in an earlier post, we really need a lawyer from one of the Civil Law countries to tell us that.

My guess, though, is that a habit grew up of abbreviating the Latin phrase for convenience and then using the abbreviation as a noun.

I can give you an analogy in English Law. In claims based on Negligence, we have a concept which is expressed in the Latin clause *Volenti non fit injuria* ("No injury is done to the volunteer"). It means that somebody who has entered an activity knowing what the risks are can't sue if he is injured. It applies in sporting activities, for example.

Among lawyers, such a person has come to be known as "the volenti", even though it's ungrammatical in Latin.

I can imagine that lawyers using the clauses *de cuius hereditate agitur* and *is de cuius morte agitur* might start referring to that person as "the cuius", just as a convenient abbreviation.

Until fairly recently, some English lawyers would try to show of their learning by quoting Latin phrases at each other, and even at baffled clients. Maybe the same idiosyncracy has occurred in other jurisdictions too. I'm glad to say the practice is quickly falling into disuse in Britain.


----------



## piraña utria

Kevin Beach said:


> As I mentioned in an earlier post, we really need a lawyer from one of the Civil Law countries to tell us that.
> 
> My guess, though, is that a habit grew up of abbreviating the Latin phrase for convenience and then using the abbreviation as a noun.
> 
> I can give you an analogy in English Law. In claims based on Negligence, we have a concept which is expressed in the Latin clause *Volenti non fit injuria* ("No injury is done to the volunteer"). It means that somebody who has entered an activity knowing what the risks are can't sue if he is injured. It applies in sporting activities, for example.
> 
> Among lawyers, such a person has come to be known as "the volenti", even though it's ungrammatical in Latin.
> 
> I can imagine that lawyers using the clauses *de cuius hereditate agitur* and *is de cuius morte agitur* might start referring to that person as "the cuius", just as a convenient abbreviation.
> 
> *Until fairly recently, some English lawyers would try to show of their learning by quoting Latin phrases at each other, and even at baffled clients. Maybe the same idiosyncracy has occurred in other jurisdictions too*. I'm glad to say the practice is quickly falling into disuse in Britain.


 
Hi Kevin:

Your hypothesis for sure is the more probable, and although I’m a lawyer I have to count myself among one of those who have this sort of bad habits. This precious Forum however has been helping me to give it up.

Colombia has a large tradition among Continental Law acquired _via_ Spain/Chile, and we have a long list of “summarized” Latin terms which obviously doesn’t have a complete sense on their own, but most of us comprehend: _ad quo_, _ad quem_, _de cujus_, among others.

Thanks a lot for your so-elaborated answer.

Regards,


----------



## ampurdan

piraña utria said:


> Hi there:
> 
> By the way, coming backwards the original point, has anyone idea about how French or Spanish Legal System or another one reduced the title's expression into a mere "_cuius/cujus_"?
> 
> Regards,


 
The abbreviation hypothesis is very convincing. Anyway, we don't just say "cuius/cujus", but "de cuius/de cujus". So, with the article it becomes "el _de cujus_" (the _de cuius_).


----------



## piraña utria

ampurdan said:


> The abbreviation hypothesis is very convincing. Anyway, we don't just say "cuius/cujus", but "de cuius/de cujus". So, with the article it becomes "el _de cujus_" (the _de cuius_).


 
Hi Ampu:

Either in Colombia (excepts within erratic and pedantic constructions). It was a _lapsus calami _(I hope I've written right)_ ._

Thanks for your note.

Regards,


----------

