# All Indo-Iranian languages: schadenfreude



## panjabigator

This is a deliciously good word!  Courtesy of WF's dictionary:


> _delight in another person's misfortune  _



Can anyone think of a good equivalent in an Indo-Iranian language?


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## searcher123

In Persian, I think nearest equivalent is حسادت, however, حسادت means in reverse. I.e. 'suffering derived from seeing others in pleasure'


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## panjabigator

Thank you! I have a gut feeling that Urdu poetry might have a good word for this, as this is a feeling that the beloved is best at!  Thoughts?  FLS, Koozagar Bhai, BP (or others)?


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## Koozagar

in Urdu,  someone who is jealous of others' success is 'haasid', 'hasad' karnay wala. حاسد ، حسد کرنے والا. I am sure there is a word for schadenfreude, or something close to it. Can't think of any.


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## omlick

here is the etymology of the word:

malicious joy in the misfortunes of others," 1922, from Ger., lit. "damage-joy," from _schaden_ "damage, harm, injury" (see *scathe*) + _freude_, from O.H.G. _frewida_ "joy," from _fro_ "happy," lit. "hopping for joy," from P.Gmc. _*frawa-_ (see *frolic*). 
What a fearful thing is it that any language should have a word expressive of the pleasure which men feel at the calamities of others; for the existence of the word bears testimony to the existence of the thing. And yet in more than one such a word is found. ... In the Greek _epikhairekakia,_ in the German, 'Schadenfreude.' [Richard C. Trench, "On the Study of Words," 1852]

Can one coin a word in urdu from this etymology?​


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## Faylasoof

omlick said:


> here is the etymology of the word:
> 
> malicious joy in the misfortunes of others," 1922, from Ger., lit. "damage-joy," from _schaden_ "damage, harm, injury" (see *scathe*) + _freude_, from O.H.G. _frewida_ "joy," from _fro_ "happy," lit. "hopping for joy," from P.Gmc. _*frawa-_ (see *frolic*).What a fearful thing is it that any language should have a word expressive of the pleasure which men feel at the calamities of others; for the existence of the word bears testimony to the existence of the thing. And yet in more than one such a word is found. ... In the Greek _epikhairekakia,_ in the German, 'Schadenfreude.' [Richard C. Trench, "On the Study of Words," 1852]
> 
> Can one coin a word in Urdu from this etymology?​



Well, one could though it would sound odd, as you might expect, given that we don't really have a word which is an exact equivalent for this. The fact that Greek and German have it may mean that speakers of these languages did not shy from coining such a word given that some humans do harbour such feelings.  Having said all this, below are two attempts at coming up with neologisms that are more or less literal translations of "damage-joy".

As in Urdu we don’t have an exact equivalent of *schadenfreude**,*  the terms we would use to describe a person who indulges in *schadenfreude*  are be بے حیا \  بے غیرت= shameless. These are not appropriate as exact equivalents, however we would use  بے حیائی and بے غیرتی for an act of *schadenfreude **= *damage-joy.

If we want to do a literal translation then we could have:
لطف نقصان_ luTf-e-nuqSaan_
شادمانی نقصان_ shaadmaani-e-nuqSaan_

I think, neither would be understood in the sense intended! In fact, they could give the opposite idea, i.e. of enjoying / being happy about suffering a loss oneself rather than one suffered others! 

Because in Urdu we can also form composite words _without_ an _ezaafah_ by inverting the position of the terms present in an _ezaafah_ construct, we could also have these:

نقصان لطف_ nuqSaan luTf_
نقصان  شادمانی_ nuqSaan shaadmaanii_


The above two represent the closest literal, word to word translation of “damage-joy”!

But again, if we end up reading them _with an ezaafah_ then they would mean something quite different!!


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## panjabigator

Great work, everyone.  How about if we tacked on another word, such as this: لطف نقصان دیگران?  That implies that the suffering is not our own.

By the way, I suspected that word wouldn't have a clean cut translation, but I find the word apt when thinking about conventional suffering as written in Ghazals and Urdu poetry.  The ma'shuq delights in tearing into the ma'shuq's liver - a better definition of schadenfreude I have seen not!


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## Faylasoof

panjabigator said:


> Great work, everyone. How about if we tacked on another word, such as this: لطف نقصان دیگران? That implies that the suffering is not our own.
> 
> By the way, I suspected that word wouldn't have a clean cut translation, but I find the word apt when thinking about conventional suffering as written in Ghazals and Urdu poetry. The ma'shuq delights in tearing into the ma'shuq's liver - a better definition of schadenfreude I have seen not!


 
As an _expression_ لطف نقصان دیگران could work!

So we still don't have a one-word equivalent. Perhaps we never will. But I guess a short expression like this may be just fine.


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## BP.

I finally found the one-word-equivalent in Arabic but I'm not sure of the spelling. It is either شماتہ or شماطہ. Heard in a philosophy seminar, don't ask me what I was doing there!


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## searcher123

In Persian, شماتت means 'to blame' or 'expostulation' that is different of *Panjabigator* was told.


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## Koozagar

BelligerentPacifist said:


> I finally found the one-word-equivalent in Arabic but I'm not sure of the spelling. It is either شماتہ or شماطہ. Heard in a philosophy seminar, don't ask me what I was doing there!



I think BP hit the Bull's eye there. My Farhang-e-kaarvaan has shamaatat *شماتت= kisi kai nuqsaan par khush hona*.

Here is my attempt at assimilating *schadenfreude in Urdu: shadaid aafreeni*شداید آفرینی


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## Faylasoof

BP, I had forgotten about this! It actually comes from Arabic!

 شَمِتَ = to rejoice over someone's misfortune; gloat (over mishap / misfortune of others); 
 شَمات = malicious joy; _Schadenfreude_ .... PG, one my Arabic-English dictionary has this very word as a translation! 

 شَماتَة (Arabic) = شَماتت  (Urdu-Persian) :
 In Arabic has the meaning as above, i.e. malicious joy, _Schadenfreude_ (!); malice. This is also one of the meanings in Urdu. 
But we use it to also mean طعنہ ,  ملامت , سر زنش . Various lexicons give slightly different usage. 

 One of the older lexicons (نسیم اللغات) has شَماتت as: 
 كسی كی خرابی \ بربادی پر خوش ہونا   ، *خنده زنى*،  

 But later ones have more like لالچ كی نظر سے دیكھنا and 
 شماتت کرنا  = to gloat , taunt.

 Koozagar, we already seem to have  *خنده زنى*  as the “single-term” Urdu equivalent of _Schadenfreud_!!


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## eskandar

I'm reviving this old thread to ask if anyone can suggest a good expression for this in Persian. I don't think we have a word for it or even a commonly known expression (اصطلاح), but I think we must have a saying (ضرب المثل) that represents this concept. Any ideas?


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## PersoLatin

Hi eskandar,  I suppose Saedi knew what that 'word' was, and came up with this most famous line, because of it:
*تو کز محنت دیگرا ن بی غمی  -  نشا ید که نامت نهند آدمی*
to kaz mehnate digarân bi qami - naŝâyad ké nâmat nahand âdami


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## Stranger_

eskandar said:


> I'm reviving this old thread to ask if anyone can suggest a good expression for this in Persian. I don't think we have a word for it or even a commonly known expression (اصطلاح), but I think we must have a saying (ضرب المثل) that represents this concept. Any ideas?


I think شماتت is the closest word we have, although حسادت is also very close in meaning. I think the difference between these two is that "شماتت" is a manifest feeling of pleasure at someone's misery, usually spoken and expressed in words by the "شامِت" person, but "حسادت" is bearing a malicious feeling, usually unexpressed, towards a successful person and wishing them misery.



> *تو کز محنت دیگرا ن بی غمی - نشا ید که نامت نهند آدمی*


There are more direct ones, but they are concerned more about being happy for someone's death, like:
در کار هیچ دوست منافق نبوده ام
بر مرگ هیچ خصم شماتت نکرده ام
خاقانی

ای دوست بر جنازه ی دشمن چو بگذری
شادی مکن که با تو همین ماجرا رود
سعدی


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## eskandar

Thanks, both of you, for the poetic examples. I guess شماتت does work, after all. I had only ever heard it with the meaning of سرزنش before.


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## colognial

eskandar, could one perhaps do something with دل خنکی?
Examples (not from literature):
خاصیت دل خنک کننده ی صحنه ی کتک خوردن بچه ی شروری که میهمانی را به هم ریخته و تزیینات میز شام را بر هم زده است
خبر خاکسترنشین شدن همشهری کین دل خیلی از مردم عادی را خنک کرد


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## Sheikh_14

There could be no better term for it then Shamaatat and what better place to stumble upon it than this forum!

P شماتت *shamātat* (for A. شماتة, inf. n. of شمت 'to rejoice at the affliction' (of an enemy)), s.f. Rejoicing at the affliction or distress of another.
اسم، مؤنث


کسی کی برائی، خرابی یا نقصان پر اظہار خوشی، استہزا یا ہنسنا، خندہ زنی

Khanda-zanii on the other hand is to laugh or ridicule thence it doesn't quite do. It's more akin to mazaaq uRaanaa. Schadenfreude can be silent.


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