# catholicos reges [Ferdinand and Isabella as "Catholic kings"]



## prr

I have read that Ferdinand and Isabella were called "Catholic kings" by the Pope. Other times, I see it is translated as "monarchs." The term "kings" in English make it sound like the Pope was implying that Isabella was a strong willed ruler, wielding power every bit as much as Ferdinand, as a queen would not in English be normally called a "king." The term "monarchs" really implies nothing about the Queen. 

Does anyone here know what the original phrase was--in Spanish or even in Latin? And more importantly, was the phrase a witty recognition of Isabella's power? Or was the weight on it, the word "Catholic," which meant that those two were active in fighting for the Catholic church?


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## prr

Moderators, does this need to be moved to the Latin forum? Not sure, it probably depends on the original wording of the Pope. I'll see if I can get it.


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## prr

I found it in a papal bull dating to 1493, Inter Caetera. Twice there, the Pope calls them "catholicos reges." I believe the Latin "rex" referred only to a male king. I don't know Latin useage enough--could the masculine plural be used in Latin to refer to a king and queen?

At any rate, the seriousness of a papal bull would seem to me, to read this not as a witticism, but as a straight out praise of their rule--meaning that the weight of the term was on "Catholic," as opposed to calling Isabella a "king."

Mods, can this be moved to the Latin forum? I think this is really a Latin question from here on out, unless I'm mistaken.


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## Lyrica_Soundbite

'Tanquam veros Catholicos reges et principes’ : Acknowledging you as true Catholic kings and princes.
I think the bull doesn't mention any queen or princess because at that time the Church wasn't one for egalitarianism between men and women.

I'd never thought about all of this, as a child I would assume that reyes included both genders. Like maestros include both male and female teachers.

I read from here about the bull:
Del título católicos de Isabel y Fernando y la bula inter cetera
            Reveladora, por último, la mención que de los demás príncipes de la cristiandad hace la misma bula después de haber llamado _“príncipes y reyes católicos”_ a los de España:

_            “Decretando no obstante que por semejante donación, concesión, asignación nuestra, a ningún *Príncipe Cristiano* que actualmente poseyere dichas islas o tierras firmes antes del dicho día de la Natividad de Nuestro Señor Jesucristo pueda entenderse que se quita o se deba quitar el derecho adquirido”_


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## wandle

prr said:


> I have read that Ferdinand and Isabella were called "Catholic kings" by the Pope.



Lewis & Short say this:    





> _Reges_ sometimes signifies _the king and queen._


  They cite Livy 1, 39 init., 27, 4:


> eo tempore in regia prodigium visu eventuque mirabile fuit: puero dormienti, cui Servio Tullio fuit nomen, caput arsisse ferunt multorum in conspectu. [2] plurimo igitur clamore inde ad tantae rei miraculum [p. 46] orto excitos reges, et cum quidam familiarium aquam ad restinguendum ferret, ab regina retentum, sedatoque eam tumultu moveri vetuisse puerum, donec sua sponte experrectus esset.


This indicates that Alexander's Latin was not at fault, although the context is obviously different.


> tanquam veros Catholicos reges et principes


For this phrase you could say 'as true Catholic monarchs and rulers', with no particular implication distinguishing Isabella.


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## prr

OK, that makes sense. So indeed, the Pope was not trying to be witty, but was simply, in his mind, giving them a compliment. 

Thanks for the replies.


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## Glenfarclas

prr said:


> implying that Isabella was a strong willed ruler, wielding power every bit as much as Ferdinand



That is actually true of Isabella, who was a very strong ruler.


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## prr

Oh I don't doubt that. But my concern is whether the Pope's words were a reflection of that. At least a couple of sources I have read have implied as much, so I wanted to clarify that. 




Glenfarclas said:


> That is actually true of Isabella, who was a very strong ruler.


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## Quiviscumque

The question is, why "reges" (Isabel & Fernando) instead of "rex"? And the answer is the complex arrengement between Isabel y Fernando with respect to Castille (Concordia de Segovia, etc.) Isabel was "reina propietaria" but Fernando was also "rey". So, Pope's words were indeed a recognition of that. Any other wording would have been a faux pas


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## voltape

well, English makes a difference  between father and mother, brother and sister.  That's why you have for the plurals:  Parents; siblings - In Spanishm the language of Fernando and Isabella, you can say "Mis padres" for my parents (literally "my fathers").  If I have 2 brothers and 2 sisters, Spanish says 2+2 = 4 hermanos, and then you have to specify the gender.   Probably in Latin is the same -


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