# Norwegian: pronunciation of -nn-



## Dan2

Before I ask my question: Sounds in one language rarely correspond exactly to sounds in another language.  When you learn a new language, you often run into situations where it's claimed that speakers say X, but because of your background you hear Y.  It's best to accept the new language for what it is rather than try to analyze it in terms of your native language. Even knowing that, I'd like to ask about the following.

I've tried listening to some Norwegian via the internet, and I often hear "nn" as a long [m] (I know that sounds crazy).  The most common example is the def noun "landet".  In Norwegian, to my knowledge, the "d" of "land" is not pronounced, and in general the "t" of the def marker "et" is silent.  So for "landet" I would expect "lanne".  But often what I hear sounds more like "lamme" (maybe not a perfect [mm], but more [mm] than [nn]).  (The context suggests the word is "landet", not "lammet"!)

So I would ask first if native speakers know anything about this.  I expect you will tell me that "landet" is quite different from "lammet", and I will accept that.  But my question is, what is it about "landet" that suggests [mm] to me?

But perhaps native speakers are so accustomed to this pronunciation that they don't view it as odd, so I would also ask if other foreigners have noticed it.

Thanks very much for your patience with what I know is a strange question.


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## Tjahzi

Very interesting observation.

A spontaneous reflection: could it be the case that you are more accustomed to hearing [mː] than [nː] and hence assimilate it to [mː]? (This makes no sense considering English phonology, but it's the only thing I can think of now. )


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## Zluim

It does sound a bit strange, yes, and yes I would say that "landet" is quite different from "lammet". Although "n" is often pronounced [m] when followed by a bilabial— "kronprins" (crown prince) -> [kromprins], "landbruk" (agriculture) -> [lambruk]— I cannot think of a good reason why it would be in "landet", [lan:e]/[la:me] even being a minimal pair. Could it be a dental /n/ that you perceive as /m/? I do not pronounce [n] as a dental myself, but when I try imitating various other dialects (and exaggerate a bit) I find myself placing the tip of the tongue almost touching the _front _(not back) of the upper teeth. 

Off topic: Grattis Sverige!


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## Magb

That's interesting indeed. If anything I would expect the Norwegian /n/ to sound _less_ like [m] than a typical English /n/ does, since /n/ is usually dental/denti-alveolar in Norwegian, and at least to me, dental sounds sound less like labial sounds than alveolar ones do. But of course, that could be because my Norwegian ears are accustomed to hearing a dental /n/, while you might be more used to an alveolar one.

On the other hand it could be that the very fact that their /n/ is dental gives Norwegians license to close their mouths a bit more than English speakers when pronouncing /n/, and your ears are picking up on that while ignoring the dental component. However, none of this explains why you would hear it for /n:/ but not for regular /n/, which is what I gather from your post.

One thing to keep in mind is that sound recordings aren't perfect representations of actual sounds, so it's possible that what you're hearing is an artifact of the recording/playback process. A good place to begin to get to the bottom of this would be if you could provide an example of a recording of a Norwegian /n:/ that you think sounds like [m:].


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## Dan2

Magb said:


> On the other hand it could be that the very fact that their /n/ is dental gives Norwegians license to close their mouths a bit more than English speakers when pronouncing /n/


It's actually possible to make both the [m] and [n] gestures simultaneously, raising the tongue tip for [n] and closing the lips for [m], but one would never do that in English.  Is it conceivable in Norwegian in a word like "landet"?


Magb said:


> However, none of  this explains why you would hear it for /n:/ but not for regular /n/,  which is what I gather from your post.


Actually, I've also heard it in "Sana" (capital city of Yemen, in the news recently).  Based on its spelling, this should have long /a/ and short /n/, right?

Thanks very much everyone for taking this seriously.  I will collect some samples and make them available to anyone interested.


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## Zluim

It is rather difficult to be aware of what happens in rapid speech, but I wonder if it's plausible that some people use a labiodental nasal [ɱ] in words like "landet"? I have no idea if this actually happens, but if it does I could certainly see it being interpreted as an /n/ by Norwegians while it sounds more like an [m] to an anglophone.


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## cocuyo

I have never perceived that Norwegians would produce a sound closer to m for nn, although I did notice another peculiarity in Trondheim and surroundings, that 'landet' is pronounced somewhat like lå[ɲ]e (or lånnje). However, both in the Oslo region where most speak bokmål and in the west, where nynorsk is prevalent, the n sounds rather clear in my ears.


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## Dan2

Here's another example, with some context: "Fire ranere stormet ... ble skadd i ranet". The /n/'s in the "rane-" words sounded more [m]-like to me.


Magb said:


> One thing to keep in mind is that sound recordings  aren't perfect representations of actual sounds, so it's possible that  what you're hearing is an artifact of the recording/playback process.


A good suggestion in general.  I'd just note that in many words I do perceive a perfectly fine [n] ; recent examples: "personer", "kvinne", "forsvinner", "kriminalitet.  I also never hear [m] for [n] in other languages, using the same equipment.

Reminder: I'm referring to internet news broadcasts, not the speech of ordinary Norwegians.



Magb said:


> A  good place to begin to get to the bottom of this would be if you could  provide an example of a recording of a Norwegian /n:/ that you think  sounds like [m:].


I have some sentences with examples as mp3 files.  Anyone interested, please contact me via PM.

Thanks,
Dan


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## nickleus

It has got to be your hearing =) Norwegians *never* use an "m" for an "n". To make the "m" sound you need to close your lips. So if you're wondering how to pronounce "n" or "nn", it's just like it looks. "n" is short/normal duration with the preceding vowel held longer and "nn" is the opposite--the preceding vowel is shortened and the double consonant is held slightly longer--e.g.:

"spise" (eat) is like "spiiiiiise" (pronounced in English like "speeeeseh").
"spisse" (pointy) is like "spisssse" (pronounced in English like "speessssseh").


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## Dan2

Update:

My samples of "landet" and "Sana" have been heard by a half dozen Americans and one German, each using his own computer audio setup; all hear [m].

The samples have also been heard by one Norwegian and one Swede; they hear [n].

I find this very interesting and will be looking into it further.


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