# shambolic trial - does this suggest a sham?



## Nunty

I understand that shambolic means "disorderly, a shambles", but do you find it a surprising word to read in a news report?

This is from the online edition of _Evening News, the Edinburgh Paper_. It is referring to  a trial taking place in Albania.

_David Brown, 57, will learn his fate in nine days' time following a shambolic five-month trial in front of a sole judge in the capital Tirana. He has made one last plea to the judge hearing the case, protesting his innocence.But his supporters privately fear the result is a foregone conclusion._

Given the immediate context and the general tone of the article, I wonder if _shambolic_ is also being used to imply that the trial is a sham.

Thanks!


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## Brioche

I would not say that shambolic is being used to imply that the trial is a sham.

I'd say it refers to the delays, lack of translation facilities, staff holidays [vacations], and so on.


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## envie de voyager

I believe that the word is there because, in the author's opinion, the trial appeared to be a sham.


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## Loob

I'm with Brioche: I don't see any implication here of a 'sham trial'.


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## envie de voyager

"But his supporters privately fear the result is a foregone conclusion."

It was this sentence from the article that led me to believe that the author was hinting that she thought the proceedings had the smell of a sham trial.  It might just be a coincidence that the first syllable of shambolic is "sham", but this is a very rarely used word, even in a newspaper.  My opinion is that she chose this word from a long list of synonyms in an effort to give her opinion without actually stating it.  

Of course, this is only _my_ opinion.


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## Nunty

E de V, that was my hunch, too, and one of the reasons that I asked if _shambolic_ is a word people would expect to find in the newspaper.

I hope one of our Scottish colleagues will offer an opinion.


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## Loob

Does "Scots by marriage" count? Actually, I don't think "shambolic" is a particularly Scottish word. 

As regards its use in newspapers, there are 600+ Google News hits for it over the last month*.

I saw the reference to "foregone conclusion", but that still doesn't make me connect _sham_ and _shambolic_....


* From a quick scan, the overwhelming majority are from UK papers, with a sprinkling of references from Australia, New Zealand, and elsewhere.


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## envie de voyager

Maybe my opinion was subconciously formed by the fact that, at first glance, "shambolic" gave me the impression that it is a made-up word created by combining "symbolic" and "sham."

I don't remember ever coming across this word in a newspaper, but I rarely read anything but my local Toronto and Hamilton papers.


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## Loob

envie de voyager said:


> Maybe my opinion was subconciously formed by the fact that, at first glance, "shambolic" gave me the impression that it is a made-up word created by combining "symbolic" and "sham."


Ah...

Here's the OED on the subject:





> [f. SHAMBLE [...], perh. after SYMBOLIC _a._]
> Chaotic, disorderly, undisciplined.
> Reported to be ‘in common use’ in 1958.


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## gasman

I would consider "shambolic' to mean a complete mess of things, particularly when something thought to be organised breaks down into a muddle.


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## panjandrum

I suspect NunT addressed the question to Scottish members because the quoted article appeared in a Scottish paper.
I'm not Scots either, but Scotland is very close, just a few miles across the Irish sea ...
I don't think there is anything inherent to shambolic as a description that tells me the trial is a sham, except in as much as it is completely disorganised, chaotic, disorderly and undisciplined and therefore might be considered to be a sham.

Is this a suitable term to find in a newspaper report?
In some papers it would not surprise me at all.
In others it would cause me to raise my eyebrows in surprise.

You'll find it in BBC reports, usually as 'shambolic', except in sports reports


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## Nunty

Thank you to Brioche, envie de voyager, Loob, gasman and panjandrum. Guess I'm <gasp!> wrong.


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## EmilyD

I have never seen this word in newspapers in the U.S. or heard it in any context.

Not that we lack for *Sham, *...

_Nomi_


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## bennymix

I never saw it before today.   It has nothing to do with 'sham', it would appear.  Loob and Pan
seem to know the meaning, above.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...ab0-11e5-93b7-5eddc056ad8a_story.html?hpid=z3

To a party seen as too white and too reactionary, Mr. Jindal seemed to promise policy expertise and serious intellectual power. The result, however, has been a shambolic state budget.


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## Loob

It's known to the WR Collins dictionary too, benny.

(There's another thread which looks at its use in the US: Shambolic.)


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## PaulQ

The origins of 'shambolic" are in Nunty's original post: 





Nunty said:


> I understand that shambolic means "disorderly, a shambles"


and to address the second point:





Nunty said:


> do you find it a surprising word to read in a news report?


No. I've witnessed judges, ministers of state, and under-secretaries say and write "shambolic" in items for public consumption. 

I see it as having a powerful yet 'respectable' register.


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## bibliolept

While the writer may have been suggesting that there were irregularities or at least unusual circumstances surrounding the trial, I don't see "shambolic" as a damning criticism. I've always understood shambolic to denote something disordered, in disrepair, and even somewhat disreputable, but I don't think this was meant an an imputation of the trial or the court.


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## JulianStuart

Lovely thread: - two of my favourite words in one thread 

The Ngrams are pretty clear about it being a Brit thing and its star has been rising only since the 70s or so.  The word shambles is one of my favourites. There's a street in York so named because it used to be populated by butchers who used small tables (shambles) to display their wares.  It was, apparently, quite disorganized.  There are not many words in English that end in -ambles from which one might want to make an adjective.  The one that seems to have been used as inspiration is another of my favouraite words: bucolic.


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## PaulQ

bibliolept said:


> and even somewhat disreputable


I can't see that a shambles implies disrepute (other than being an indirect comment on the capabilities of the person ultimately responsible for the shambles.)


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## JulianStuart

I forgot to add that, in agreement with others, I think the word does not mean "not authentic" the way sham does.  Just disorganized, messy etc.


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## Packard

I looked up slang meaning of "sham".  Irish slang was "man".

Scottish, showed "she-man" (half man and half woman).

Also, "shan" which means "a shame".

I think if I saw this in a newspaper article that I would assume it was a "halt" word.  A word that stops the reader and makes him question closely what he has or is about to read.  Note:  "Halt word" to the best of my knowledge is a phrase of my own coinage.

I suspect that the writer intended it to be a halt word.  And the double meaning was added emphasis.

Are there any laws on the books that preclude a journalist from commenting on the fairness of a trial that has not yet be decided?  That might be an issue.  Indeed from this source it is mandatory that the write only write what has been reported during the trial:

See:  http://www.thenewsmanual.net/Manuals Volume 3/volume3_64.htm

_[...]So, from the time that someone is charged with a crime - or, more accurately, from the time when the police tell you that someone is about to be charged with a crime - the case is sub judice. From that moment on, until the court case is completed, you should write nothing about the crime except details which emerge while the court case is being conducted.[...]_


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## Loob

MrP, _shambolic_ wouldn't be a "halt word" in any BrE newspaper: it's simply an adjective formed from _shambles_ (not _sham_).

It's possible, I suppose, that the author of benny's _Washington Post_ article (post 14 resuscitation of the thread) intended it as one....


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## bennymix

By the way, growing up in California, I heard 'shambles' frequently from my mom:
"Your room is a shambles".    So I think that word, compared to 'shambolic' is well known in the US.


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## Packard

bennymix said:


> By the way, growing up in California, I heard 'shambles' frequently from my mom:
> "Your room is a shambles".    So I think that word, compared to 'shambolic' is well known in the US.




I agree.  I would be stopped cold with the word "shambolic".  I had never heard it used before. 

< Topic drift removed. Cagey, moderator. >


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## Mahantongo

I think most Americans would be stopped cold by it.  My only exposure to it has been in reading UK newspapers online.  I consider "shambolic" to be British usage only, and as foreign (and incomprehensible on first hearing) to US speech as words such as "cooker", or "hob", or "butty", or "hoover", or "chipolata", or "chuffed".


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## Winstanley808

When I read the header, and especially the OP usage example, I thought that "shambolic" was a portmanteau word, a neologistic combination of "sham" and "symbolic," coined to indicate that the Albanian trial was being held for "symbolic" reasons but was in fact a _sham_, not a _shambles_.  I was amazed to read that some British contributors recognize it as a real word meaning "of the nature of a shambles."

I couldn't find "shambolic" in the dictionary I usually use, the American Heritage college edition, so I looked for it in the SOED; I couldn't find it there either.  _Sham_ is in both.


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## JulianStuart

The word shambolic is in the WRF dictionary. 
(That shold be your first port of call when visiting WRF)


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## wandle

To my mind, 'shambolic' is still a crass schoolboy word formed from 'shambles' in the sense of 'chaotic mess'.
Here is what _Chambers English Dictionary (1990)_ has to say:


> *shamble *_n._ a butcher's market stall: in _pl. _(sometimes treated as _sing._) a flesh-market, hence, a slaughterhouse.
> _n. sing_. *shambles *a place of carnage (_fig_.): a mess, muddle (coll.)
> _adj. _*shambolic *(_slang:_ ill-formed) chaotic.


The message of the above is that 'shambolic' is a slang, improperly formed term, derived from a usage ('mess, muddle') which is itself colloquial: thus neither usage is suitable for good written English.

The colloquial sense of 'shambles' meaning 'mess' is derived from the respectable figurative use meaning 'a place of carnage', rather than the literal sense of 'a flesh-market'.


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## ewie

wandle said:


> To my mind, 'shambolic' is still a crass schoolboy word formed from 'shambles' in the sense of 'chaotic mess'.
> Here is what _Chambers English Dictionary (1990)_ has to say:
> 
> The message of the above is that 'shambolic' is a slang, improperly formed term, derived from a usage ('mess, muddle') which is itself colloquial: thus neither usage is suitable for good written English.
> 
> The colloquial sense of 'shambles' meaning 'mess' is derived from the respectable figurative use meaning 'a place of carnage', rather than the literal sense of 'a flesh-market'.


Well that's _us_ told

Like all the _other_ BrE respondents, I find the word totally unremarkable ~ and it has nothing to do with _sham_.


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## wandle

ewie said:


> Well that's _us_ told


What I have said is that I follow _Chambers_ as quoted.  That imposes nothing on anyone.


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## ewie

wandle said:


> What I have said is that I follow _Chambers_ as quoted.  That imposes nothing on anyone.


I didn't so much mean "told how to do it" as "told how unutterably wrong we all are"

I wouldn't dream for an instant of paying any attention whatever to a dictionary that considered _shambolic_ to be 'ill-formed slang'


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## bennymix

On the other hand, Wandle,
Chambers, online, presumably the most recent edition (13th, 2014) has dropped the
editorializing.
http://www.chambers.co.uk/dictionaries/the-chambers-dictionary.php  [13th edition, 2014}

Search results for 'shambolic':

*shambles* singular noun 1 colloq a confused mess or muddle; a state of total disorder • The whole event was a shambles. 2 a meat market. 3 a slaughterhouse. 4 a scene or place of slaughter or carnage. *shambolic* adj, colloq totally disorganized; chaotic.




wandle said:


> To my mind, 'shambolic' is still a crass schoolboy word formed from 'shambles' in the sense of 'chaotic mess'.
> Here is what _Chambers English Dictionary (1990)_ has to say:
> 
> The message of the above is that 'shambolic' is a slang, improperly formed term, derived from a usage ('mess, muddle') which is itself colloquial: thus neither usage is suitable for good written English.
> 
> [...]


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## JulianStuart

As I commented in #14, there are no singular words ending in -ambles for which a "_well_-formed" adjective could have been formed so the very act of adjectivizing the word was ill-conceived, but nonetheless quite fruitful, given the extent to which it has risen inpopularity since the 1970s era   One might even speculate that the principle governing the way words are formed and accepted or rejected by the populace is, well, rather shambolic


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## Winstanley808

Whatever the dictionaries say, it's a completely unfamiliar word to me, and I wouldn't use it, if only because I would fear that my readers or listeners would interpret it as I did when I read the OP—or not know what I meant at all.


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## JulianStuart

Winstanley808 said:


> Whatever the dictionaries say, it's a completely unfamiliar word to me, and I wouldn't use it, if only because I would fear that my readers or listeners would interpret it as I did when I read the OP—or not know what I meant at all.


It's OK for the word to be in the same category as other BE words that are not used (or used differently) in AE.  One uses judgement in whether to use the AE or BE version based on expected audience or personal preference (As in: I'll write in BE no matter who is going to read it)  Thinking "shambolic" relates to "sham" is not too surprising, but a BE speaker would think a fender is a kind of guitar, since they don't know its use in AE refers to part of a car


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## ayuda?

*Schambolic *means “chaotic, disorganized, or mismanaged.”

My personal feeling about this is that this is the adjective form used for the Hebrew word *shibboleth* and that there were several ways of pronouncing that word, which lead to that particular spelling.
It seems to make sense from the excerpt you cited
It would, indeed, also have the meaning of “a sham trial.”
What do you think? Possible?? [*See the links below.]*

 http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/shibboleth
*shibboleth:
1a*:  a word or saying used by adherents of a party, sect, or belief and usually regarded by others as empty of real meaning <the old shibboleths come rolling off their lips — Joseph Epstein>

Historically, it is a word from the *Hebrew *meaning it was something secret or hidden from outsiders who wouldn’t really know what was going on:
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shibboleth


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## bennymix

Ayuda, I do not see any connection.


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## JulianStuart

Ayuda - are you disputing the pretty firmly established origin above, from the word shambles - unrelated to either shibboleth or sham?  Or are you trying to start an internet "myth".  People will find your post and pass it on "I read it on the internet"


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## wandle

ewie said:


> I didn't so much mean "told how to do it" as "told how unutterably wrong we all are"


Not by me, ever.


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## wandle

bennymix said:


> Chambers, online, presumably the most recent edition (13th, 2014) has dropped the
> editorializing.


The online version does not contain the comment that 'shambolic' is ill-formed slang, but it does still say that the meanings 'confused mess or muddle'  for 'shambles' and 'disorganised, chaotic' for shambolic are both colloquial.

The main reason for avoiding colloquialisms in written English has emerged in the thread: they lack precision and may easily be misunderstood or not understood at all.

It is not clear why Chambers have dropped 'ill-formed slang'. It appears they have promoted 'shambolic' from that status to 'colloquial'. I prefer the original view.


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## ewie

I _(personally)_ would hesitate even to describe it as 'colloq.' any more: I _(genuinely)_ believe it's become a lot more 'respectable' and 'mainstream' than either you or Chambers think, Wandle


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## Loob

I agree with ewie - and with Paul's post 16:


PaulQ said:


> .... I've witnessed judges, ministers of state, and under-secretaries say and write "shambolic" in items for public consumption.
> 
> I see it as having a powerful yet 'respectable' register.


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## Winstanley808

Does the BE shamble -> shambolic pattern extend to brambolic (overgrown with thorny bushes) and rambolic (given to aimless wandering)?


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## Loob

No, I don't think so, Winstanley.... But I rather like your creations!


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## Wordsmyth

Loob said:


> I agree with ewie - and with Paul's post 16:


I agree with ewie, Paul, and Loob. _Shambolic_ is a word I've known (and used) for most of my life, and which has never struck me as unsuitably colloquial. 



JulianStuart said:


> There are not many words in English that end in -ambles from which one might want to make an adjective. The one that seems to have been used as inspiration is another of my favouraite words: bucolic.


 _Bucolic_ might be vulnerable to the argument that there's no such thing as a _bucle_. ...

However, there are other examples which follow a similar pattern: _apostle - apostolic_, _parable - parabolic_, so _shambles - shambolic_. 

OK, _shambles_ happens to have an s, because it was originally a plural that now has the function of a singular noun, but I'd say that's incidental to the basic pattern (and you could equally base the comparison on _apostles_ and _parables_).  

And OK, etymologically speaking there's a difference. _Apostle/apostolic_ and _parable/parabolic_ derive from Old English/French/Latin/Greek root words that had the _'o', _and it's the nouns that have lost the _'o'._ Whereas that's not the case with _shambles/shambolic_. But etymology plays little or no part in the formation of certain modern derivative words, which are often just patterned on similar-looking words. (I believe that may even be true of _chaotic_, which dates only from the 18th century, though I'm prepared to be corrected by any Greek scholars who may know better.)

Ws


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## JulianStuart

Wordsmyth said:


> I agree with ewie, Paul, and Loob. _Shambolic_ is a word I've known (and used) for most of my life, and which has never struck me as unsuitably colloquial.
> 
> _Bucolic_ might be vulnerable to the argument that there's no such thing as a _bucle_. ...
> 
> However, there are other examples which follow a similar pattern: _apostle - apostolic_, _parable - parabolic_, so _shambles - shambolic_.
> 
> OK, _shambles_ happens to have an s, because it was originally a plural that now has the function of a singular noun, but I'd say that's incidental to the basic pattern (and you could equally base the comparison on _apostles_ and _parables_).
> 
> And OK, etymologically speaking there's a difference. _Apostle/apostolic_ and _parable/parabolic_ derive from Old English/French/Latin/Greek root words that had the _'o', _and it's the nouns that have lost the _'o'._ Whereas that's not the case with _shambles/shambolic_. But etymology plays little or no part in the formation of certain modern derivative words, which are often just patterned on similar-looking words. (I believe that may even be true of _chaotic_, which dates only from the 18th century, though I'm prepared to be corrected by any Greek scholars who may know better.)
> 
> Ws


But it ends in -mble(s) - you broadened the precedents.  I was only partly serious, of course, and wanted to bring in my favourite word bucolic and it seemed like a good excuse.   But I see you subscribe, at least partly, to the notion that modern derivative words formations don't always follow neat rules.  I'd know instantly what brambolic and rambolic meant but they won't get used very often and won;t catch on.  Clearly not the case for (frequently needed) shambolic.  I'm still waiting for a suggestion of a "well-formed" adjectivization


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## Wordsmyth

JulianStuart said:


> But it ends in -mble(s) - you broadened the precedents.


 Guilty, yer honour ... but what's an 'm' between friends? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			







JulianStuart said:


> But I see you subscribe, at least partly, to the notion that modern derivative words formations don't always follow neat rules.


 Yes, indeed: fully, in fact.



JulianStuart said:


> I'm still waiting for a suggestion of a "well-formed" adjectivization


 How about _'shambly'_ (like _brambly_), or _'shambular'_ (like _preambular_)? Nah! Ill-formed or not, I much prefer _shambolic_.

Ws


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## bennymix

From 'guts' to 'gutsy';  hence from 'shambles' to 'shamblesy'.


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## JulianStuart

Wordsmyth said:


> How about _'shambly'_ (like _brambly_), or _'shambular'_ (like _preambular_)? Nah! Ill-formed or not, I much prefer _shambolic_.
> 
> Ws


I think the "respectable" register comes from the similarity to "symbolic", which is a powerful word.  However, as I said in my first post, I agree with your preference for shambolic.  If it casts us as crass schoolboys (I'll only accept one of those), so be it: it just _sounds_ right.


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