# FR: demander à qqn de faire qqch



## chinesegirl1986

is the word "demander "  vi or vt or vti in the sentence"demander à qqn de faire qqch"?
thanks


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## arundhati

vi here....


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## tilt

arundhati said:


> vi here....


Sorry, but I don't agree.
_Demander _is direct transitive, it always requires an object to make sense.
When this object is an infinitive, the verb is preceded by a preposition (_de _or _à_), but the preposition is part of the object, and doesn't make the verb indirect.


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## arundhati

Ah, vi voulait dire intransitif... J'avais mal compris.


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## tilt

arundhati said:


> Ah, vi voulait dire intransitif... J'avais mal compris.


J'avoue avoir eu un moment d'hésitation aussi ! 
Sans la mention de _vt _et _vti_, je me demanderais encore ce que _vi _peut bien signifier.


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## CapnPrep

tilt said:


> Sorry, but I don't agree.
> _Demander _is direct transitive, it always requires an object to make sense.
> When this object is an infinitive, the verb is preceded by a preposition (_de _or _à_), but the preposition is part of the object, and doesn't make the verb indirect.


I doesn't make sense in the first place to apply these terms to verbs with  two complements, or with an infinitival complement. What is _demander_ in _demander qch à qqn_ ? vt, vti, vtit, vtti, ... ? What about _daigner faire qch_, _tarder à faire qch_ ?


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## tilt

Er... What do _vtit _and _vtti _means? 

As I said before, _demander _is direct transitive, as its object answers the question _demander quoi ?_
The same for _daigner_.

_Tarder_, on the contrary, is indirect transitive: its object answer the question _tarder à quoi ?_


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## CapnPrep

tilt said:


> Er... What do _vtit _and _vtti _means?


 They don't mean anything, that was the point. 



> As I said before, _demander _is direct transitive, as its object answers the question _demander quoi ?_


The problem is that _demander_ has two objects, and the other one answers the question _demander à qui ?_ So the verb would have to be both transitive direct and transitive indirect at the same time.

And if you can accept (although I do not) questions like_Elle daigne quoi ? — Nous parler.__
Elle tarde à quoi ?_ — _À partir._​then why not_Elle demande à quoi ?_ — _À partir._
_Elle me demande de quoi ? De partir._​?


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## tilt

CapnPrep said:


> The problem is that _demander_ has two objects, and the other one answers the question _demander à qui ?_ So the verb would have to be both transitive direct and transitive indirect at the same time.


A verb is said indirect transitive if it has an indirect object only.
A verb with both direct and indirect objects is _direct transitive_. Note that in such a case, the latter object is said _second _and not _indirect_.



CapnPrep said:


> And if you can accept (although I do not) questions like_Elle daigne quoi ? — Nous parler.__
> Elle tarde à quoi ?_ — _À partir._​then why not_Elle demande à quoi ?_ — _À partir._
> _Elle me demande de quoi ? De partir._​?


The point is that _Elle tarde quoi ? _doesn't make any sense.
Keeping _à_ in this question is necessary, and this make _tarder _an indirect transitive verb.

On the contrary, _Elle demande quoi ?_ is a meaningful question.
And even if _Elle demande à quoi ? _is possible, it binds _quoi _to stand for a verb. The question used to know if an object is direct or not can't be that restrictive.


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## Cilquiestsuens

I find this topic quite interesting actually. Do you have any readings or references or links to suggest, Tilt ?


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## tilt

You may have a look at this site, which is easy to understand even if all in French, in my opinon.
It explains grammar in the way it is taught in French schools nowadays.


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## CapnPrep

tilt said:


> And even if _Elle demande à quoi ? _is possible, it binds _quoi _to stand for a verb. The question used to know if an object is direct or not can't be that restrictive.


Did you just invent this part? Who says this? Because the question _Elle tarde à quoi ? _is just as restrictive.


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## tilt

CapnPrep said:


> Did you just invent this part? Who says this? Because the question _Elle tarde à quoi ? _is just as restrictive.


No, it's not! 
_Elle demande à quoi _is restrictive because it's a specific case of _Elle demande quoi_.
_Elle tarde à quoi _is the only way to ask the question, since _Elle tarde quoi _doesn't make sense.


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## CapnPrep

OK, tilt, now I understand your system. 


Nominal complementation takes precedence over infinitival complementation.
In other words, always try to replace the infinitive with a noun/pronoun. This is essentially what happens when one uses the "question" test, because _quoi_ is a pronoun. If this doesn't work (i.e., if the _quoi_-question "doesn't make sense"), only then look at the construction (direct/indirect) of the infinitive.


The possibility of having a nominal COD (maybe in a completely different sentence) is enough to make a verb tr. dir., and this overrides the presence of all other types of complements.
This goes beyond what students are normally taught (cf. the familiar definitions in §A03/c in the link you provided), so it is not surprising to get questions like chinesegirl1986's, and to have disagreements about the answer.

I find it almost totally unhelpful to say that _demander_ is tr. dir. in this example (_demander à qqn de faire qch_): what a student needs to know here is that the verb takes (1) a nominal complement introduced by _à_ (COS if you prefer) and (2) an infinitive introduced by _de_. The label "tr. dir." doesn't say anything about either of those!


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