# methinks the lady doth protest too much



## john_riemann_soong

This is one of my favourite lines from Shakespeare (it's from Hamlet
to be exact). In your opinion, what's the best way of rendering it? WR doesn't seem to translate it, and it's not a straightforward "I think" either.

_(il) me semble que la dame protestât trop?

_I do notice that sometimes the "il" in "il y a" is dropped so was wondering whether one could drop the "il" in "il me semble" too analogously as well. (Since methinks = [it] seems to me?)


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## la grive solitaire

_La dame fait trop de protestations, ce me semble._  http://abu.cnam.fr/cgi-bin/donner_html?hamlet1


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## john_riemann_soong

Should it be "des protestations"? I do agree though that the translation provided maintains the rhythm of it.


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## Cath.S.

john_riemann_soong said:


> Should it be "des protestations"?


Yes, it should.  We say_ des protestations d'amitié_, for instance.


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## john_riemann_soong

So I assume that was just a typo then?

"_Des protestations d'amitié" _is an unfamiliar idiom to me. Is it "the up and downs of friendship"?


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## Cath.S.

I misunderstood your question, I thought you were questioning the use of the plural. There is no typo. Check out the numerous past topics on the subject.

adresser des protestations d'amitié = assurer quelqu'un de son amitié :

_Voyons, mon cher, vous savez en quelle haute estime je vous tiens, et si vous avez besoin de quoi que ce soit, vous pouvez compter sur moi et bla bla bla  etc. etc_.


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## Nicomon

egueule said:


> Yes, it should.  We say_ des protestations d'amitié_, for instance.


 
salut egueule
Hum... (here refering to post #2) would you really say "fait trop *des* protestations?"  I wouldn't.    In my opinion, *de *isn't a typo.*  *


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## Cath.S.

Nicomon said:


> salut egueule
> Hum... (here refering to post #2) would you really say "fait trop *des* protestations?" I wouldn't. Quelle question ! Non, bien entendu !  In my opinion, *de *isn't a typo.*  *


Salut Nico, 

je suis d'accord avec toi, c'est ce que je dis d'ailleurs dans mon message précédent, j'avais mal interprété la question de John Riemann Soong, pensant qu'il demandait simplement si_ l'emploi du pluriel_ était correct dans la traduction.

John,_ trop_ is* never* followed by des.
J'ai mangé *des *cerises,
but
j'ai mangé trop* de* cerises.


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## Nicomon

egueule said:


> Salut Nico,
> 
> je suis d'accord avec toi, c'est ce que je dis d'ailleurs dans mon message précédent.


 
Je me disais bien aussi. Je n'avais pas vu ton message # 6.


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## john_riemann_soong

egueule said:


> Salut Nico,
> 
> je suis d'accord avec toi, c'est ce que je dis d'ailleurs dans mon message précédent, j'avais mal interprété la question de John Riemann Soong, pensant qu'il demandait simplement si_ l'emploi du pluriel_ était correct dans la traduction.
> 
> John,_ trop_ is* never* followed by des.
> J'ai mangé *des *cerises,
> but
> j'ai mangé trop* de* cerises.



Oops, I guessed I should have picked this up 3 years ago. 

I guess it's the logic, because I can get why for example "je ne mange pas de pain" has it in the singular for both places, (not any of an item is easy to envision in the singular) ... but "trop de [plural]" was never explicitly mentioned to me, namely because I'm seeing a singular article and a plural noun.


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## Gez

john_riemann_soong said:


> Should it be "des protestations"? I do agree though that the translation provided maintains the rhythm of it.



No, no, no, it shouldn't!

"_La dame fait trop des protestations, ce me semble._"
Read it once more. It's not correct.

"_La dame fait trop de protestations, ce me semble._"
That's correct.


If I translate it back in English that way, using "making protests (noun)" instead of "protesting (verb)", we get:
For the "de" sentence: "Methinks the lady doth make too much protests"
For the "des" sentence: "Methinks the lady doth make too much the protests"

Which is correct? De, obviously.



egueule said:


> John,_ trop_ is* never* followed by des.
> J'ai mangé *des *cerises,
> but
> j'ai mangé trop* de* cerises.



Actually, it can be, if you have a pronoun. "J'ai mangé trop de cerises." "J'en ai mangé trop, des cerises."

Of course, you'll say then that "trop" is actually not followed by anything, since that sentence is just a different order for: "Des cerises, j'en ai mangé trop."



john_riemann_soong said:


> Oops, I guessed I should have picked this up 3 years ago.
> 
> I guess it's the logic, because I can get why for example "je ne mange pas de pain" has it in the singular for both places, (not any of an item is easy to envision in the singular) ... but "trop de [plural]" was never explicitly mentioned to me, namely because I'm seeing a singular article and a plural noun.


And you can say "Je ne mange pas des pains de ce boulanger."
"Je ne mange pas _de_ pain" -> "I don't eat _Ø_ bread"
"Je ne mange pas _des_ pains qu'il fait" -> "I don't eat _the_ breads he makes"

(The "Ø" stands for "lack of a determination word." Determinants are articles or other words that _determines_ which [noun] we're talking about. In the second sentence, "the and the plural form" determines that we're talking about some specific breads, not all breads in general.)


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## Cath.S.

> Actually, it can be, if you have a pronoun. "J'ai mangé trop de cerises." "J'en ai mangé trop, des cerises."
> 
> Of course, you'll say then that "trop" is actually not followed by anything,


I won't need to say it: you have done that very nicely yourself.


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## Gil

Methought the lady "exagérait dans ses doléances"


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## Cath.S.

Gil said:


> Methought the lady "exagérait dans ses doléances"


Salut Gil, 
ce ne sont pas des doléances, mais des serments, Baptista assure que, quoi qu'il arrive, elle ne se remariera pas. Personnellement,

_je trouve que la dame en fait trop._


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## Gil

egueule said:


> Salut Gil,
> ce ne sont pas des doléances, mais des serments, Baptista assure que, quoi qu'il arrive, elle ne se remariera pas. Personnellement,
> 
> _je trouve que la dame en fait trop._


Pour ceux qui (comme moi) n'ont pas la culture d'egueule et n'avait pas compris:  voir là 
Edit:
Désolé, ce n'était pas nécessaire de massacrer la syntaxe pour prouver mon inculture.


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## john_riemann_soong

Gil said:


> Pour ceux qui (comme moi) n'ont pas la culture d'egueule et n'avait pas compris:  voir là
> Edit:
> Désolé, ce n'était pas nécessaire de massacrer la syntaxe pour prouver mon inculture.



Is that red x supposed to signify a typo? It should be _avaient_, right?


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## Gil

john_riemann_soong said:


> Is that red x supposed to signify a typo? It should be _avaient_, right?


Right.


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## john_riemann_soong

Gez said:


> No, no, no, it shouldn't!
> 
> "_La dame fait trop des protestations, ce me semble._"
> Read it once more. It's not correct.
> 
> "_La dame fait trop de protestations, ce me semble._"
> That's correct.
> 
> 
> If I translate it back in English that way, using "making protests (noun)" instead of "protesting (verb)", we get:
> For the "de" sentence: "Methinks the lady doth make too much protests"
> For the "des" sentence: "Methinks the lady doth make too much the protests"
> 
> Which is correct? De, obviously.



Oh, there being two different forms of "des" (arguably homonymnal), ie. not the plural of "du" but just a plurified "de", I thought agreement had to be made. 

I'm wondering, because if were to change _droit d'auteur_ to _droits des auteurs_ for example, I am not saying "right of the authors" nor "right of some authors", am I not?


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## john_riemann_soong

Gil said:


> john_riemann_soong said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is that red x supposed to signify a typo? It should be _avaient_, right?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Right.
Click to expand...


Are these homonym-based errors common for native speakers of French? I'm just curious. 

Even as a native English speaker for example, if I'm burning the midnight oil on a school essay, I might mindlessly type in, "the author _rights _that ..."


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## DaiSmallcoal

Simply - (after all this) - I was taught that Quantities in this sense were always "de"

beaucoup de  , plein de , tant de,  suffisament de, etc. ....

Non ?

Dai,  l'apprenti


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## Gez

john_riemann_soong said:


> I'm wondering, because if were to change _droit d'auteur_ to _droits des auteurs_ for example, I am not saying "right of the authors" nor "right of some authors", am I not?




"Auteur" in "droits d'auteur" doesn't refer to any particular author, it's a reference to the notion of "auteur". Like "nourriture pour chien" refers to the notion of "chien."

"Droits de l'auteur" refers to a specific author. Presumably, we're talking about the rights he's entitled by the contract he signer with his publishers. So it's not the concept of author's rights we're talking about.

"Droits des auteurs" likewise refers to a specific group of authors, rather than authors in general.

You have the same type of subtleties in English. Compare these two sentences:
"All dogs in this house must be kept on a leash."
"All the dogs in this house must be kept on a leash."

In the first sentence, you refer to all the dogs of the world. Anybody who brings a dog here is warned that he has to keep the dog leashed while they're in.
In the second sentence, you refer only to the dogs that are in the house at the moment. Every one who lives in a house and owns a dog must keep his dog on a leash, even when they go outside.


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## Gil

john_riemann_soong said:


> Are these homonym-based errors common for native speakers of French? I'm just curious.
> 
> Even as a native English speaker for example, if I'm burning the midnight oil on a school essay, I might mindlessly type in, "the author _rights _that ..."



I think it's more common when native speakers get older...


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## john_riemann_soong

Gil said:


> I think it's more common when native speakers get older...



You're not referring to senility, are you? Because I had never committed such mistakes when young ... I wonder if it's because children have a more innate sense of language.


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## Gil

john_riemann_soong said:


> You're not referring to senility, are you? Because I had never committed such mistakes when young ... I wonder if it's because children have a more innate sense of language.


Mod advice to come:  not relevant to problem discussed.


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## john_riemann_soong

Gez said:


> "Auteur" in "droits d'auteur" doesn't refer to any particular author, it's a reference to the notion of "auteur". Like "nourriture pour chien" refers to the notion of "chien."
> 
> "Droits de l'auteur" refers to a specific author. Presumably, we're talking about the rights he's entitled by the contract he signer with his publishers. So it's not the concept of author's rights we're talking about.
> 
> "Droits des auteurs" likewise refers to a specific group of authors, rather than authors in general.
> 
> You have the same type of subtleties in English. Compare these two sentences:
> "All dogs in this house must be kept on a leash."
> "All the dogs in this house must be kept on a leash."
> 
> In the first sentence, you refer to all the dogs of the world. Anybody who brings a dog here is warned that he has to keep the dog leashed while they're in.
> In the second sentence, you refer only to the dogs that are in the house at the moment. Every one who lives in a house and owns a dog must keep his dog on a leash, even when they go outside.



Hmm, perhaps a better example for what I meant is nouns that are always plural, like _gens_, and used as an abstract concept. If we were referring to an abstract concept like "pouvoir des gens" (ie. _pouvoir de peuple, people  power_)?

I'm also looking at parts at WR which give (pardon the copy and paste):

_analyse des circuits        circuit analysis
analyse des couleurs        color analysis US
analyse des couleurs        colour analysis
analyse des écarts        variance analysis
analyse des écarts        analysis of variance
analyse des rêves        dream analysis
analyse des tendances        trend analysis

_These are abstractions, I would infer, because it would seem a bit clunky to translate "analyse des couleurs", for example, to "analysis of the colours". "Analysis of some colours" doesn't seem to work either.


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## pesto

A bit late, but it interested me nonetheless. This is my take:

Je crois que la dame s'y oppose un peu trop.
or
Il me semble que la dame s'y oppose un peu trop


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