# Alles Vergängliche ist nur ein Gleichnis (Goethe)



## Löwenfrau

Hallo!

Ich bin nicht sicher, was "Gleichnis" im folgenden Kontext bedeutet:

"Das Leben - ein Traum, das ist die alte Formel für die erkannte Vorläufigkeit unseres Erdenlebens, das ist der Schlüssel für alle Dichtung, die nicht nur für sich selbst, sondern sub specie aeternitatis betrachtet sein will. Nicht der romantische Traum ist hier angesprochen, der als innere Erlebnis Form des Menschen sein Wesentlichstes offenbart, der als Mikrokosmos die in der Sünde vereinzelte Welt zurückführt in die Einheit des paradiesischen Urzustandes. Es ist auch nicht jener Traum, der den in die Zukunft führenden 'Weg nach Hause' als dichterische Ahnung vorwegnimmt, sondern dieser österreichisch-barocke Traum ist der Ausdruck des Wissens, das alles Vergängliche nur ein Gleichnis und das Leben ein Spiel ist [...] (KLAUS SIMON, _Traum und Orpheus - eine Studie über Georg Trakls Dichtungen_)"

Vielleicht meint er "copy", "reproduction"?

Danke im Voraus und alles Gute!


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## fdb

The English term is "simile".

This is a quotation from the final words of Goethe's Faust:

Alles Vergängliche
Ist nur ein Gleichnis;
Das Unzulängliche,
Hier wird's Ereignis;
Das Unbeschreibliche,
Hier ist's getan;
Das Ewig-Weibliche
Zieht uns hinan.


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## anahiseri

in Spanish we say "parábola", maybe you understand this. it's similar to a "metaphor", but it's not just one word or expression, it's usually a little story. In the Bible, Jesus often tells them.


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## elroy

anahiseri said:


> in Spanish we say "parábola", maybe you understand this. it's similar to a "metaphor", but it's not just one word or expression, it's usually a little story. In the Bible, Jesus often tells them.


 The English word for that is “parable,” which is very different from a “simile.”  Which one is it?


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## Löwenfrau

I frankly don't see how "parable" would fit in this context 

I think it is simile. In the sense: transient figures are simili/copies (of some eternal being?) I'm  not sure...


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## Kurtchen

Have at it! 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_Cave


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## Kajjo

elroy said:


> The English word for that is “parable,” which is very different from a “simile.” Which one is it?


The term "Gleichnis" means "parable". That fits here very well as translation, I believe, and Germans will always be reminded on biblical parables when reading the word "Gleichnis", because the term is very rarely used outside the biblical context.



fdb said:


> _Alles Vergängliche
> Ist nur ein Gleichnis_


These two lines form themselves the rhetoric figure of a simile, a direct comparison. However, the term "Gleichnis" means "parable".

I guess this is supposed to mean that everything perishable is just a ephemeral illustration of a deeper, eternal concept.


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## elroy

The non-Biblical term for this is "allegory."  That may be a better fit here, depending on the purpose of the translation.  If accessibility and transparency are more important than utmost precision, "allegory" may work better.  "Parable," as in German, is only used in Biblical contexts, and I would imagine many people who are not (religious) Christians would not know the word.


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## Kajjo

elroy said:


> The non-Biblical term for this is "allegory."


I am not so sure it is. Please read this link with the German distinction of Gleichnis, Parabel, and Allegorie: Gleichnis – Wikipedia



elroy said:


> as in German, is only used in Biblical contexts


By the way, "Gleichnis" is used with Koran scripture, too (still religious context, but not narrowed to Christian).


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## berndf

Kajjo said:


> By the way, "Gleichnis" is used with Koran scripture, too (still religious context, but not narrowed to Christian).


The Qur'an uses Arabic and not German words. German translators of the Qur'an obviously reuse familiar Biblical terms.


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## berndf

elroy said:


> The non-Biblical term for this is "allegory."  That may be a better fit here, depending on the purpose of the translation.  If accessibility and transparency are more important than utmost precision, "allegory" may work better.  "Parable," as in German, is only used in Biblical contexts, and I would imagine many people who are not (religious) Christians would not know the word.


I agree with your argument but would draw the opposite conclusion: The only possible translation is _parable_ because _allegory_ is used, and only used, in profane contexts and _Gleichnis_ is not.

Evocation of a religious context is inescapable in the original German sentence and so it must be in any faithful translation.


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## Kajjo

berndf said:


> Evocation of a religious context is inescapable in the original German sentence and so it must be in any faithful translation.


I agree.


berndf said:


> The Qur'an uses Arabic and not German words.


Of course, but I didn't talk about the Qur'an itself, but about the study of it and I am convinced that "Gleichnis" is applied in German to Qur'an parables as well. -- Mehr wollte ich damit nicht gesagt haben...


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## fdb

This:

Gleichnis - Wörterbuch Deutsch-Englisch - WordReference.com

offers you the choice between "parable" and "simile". One could argue which makes better sense in the Goethe verse.


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## Kajjo

fdb said:


> offers you the choice between "parable" and "simile"


I regard that as mistake in the dictionary. I neither see "Gleichnis=image" nor "Gleichnis=simile". 

The rhetoric figure "simile" is in German "Vergleich": Vergleich (Literatur) – Wikipedia


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## berndf

Kajjo said:


> Of course, but I didn't talk about the Qur'an itself, but about the study of it and I am convinced that "Gleichnis" is applied in German to Qur'an parables as well. -- Mehr wollte ich damit nicht gesagt haben...


D'accord.


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## fdb

berndf said:


> The Qur'an uses Arabic and not German words.


 
Of course. The Qur'anic term mathal has in fact the same two meanings as Gleichnis: "parable" and "simile".


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## elroy

As far as I know, مثل is “parable” or “proverb,” and “simile” is تشبيه.  In any case, I don’t know about the Qur’an, but at least in the Bible the word “parable” doesn’t actually appear.  

According to the Duden, “Gleichnis” does not mean “simile.”  Do we need to report a mistake in the WR dictionary?


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## fdb

Kajjo said:


> I regard that as mistake in the dictionary. I neither see "Gleichnis=image".



DWDS              –                gleichnis (¹DWB) meaning "A".


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## Kajjo

fdb said:


> meaning "A".


Obsolete or reserved to very special context -- "Gleichnis" as "Ebenbild" is not the default meaning.


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## Kajjo

elroy said:


> According to the Duden, “Gleichnis” does not mean “simile.” Do we need to report a mistake in the WR dictionary?


It should be at least marked as "obsolete" with the synonym "Ebendbild" (image).

"Simile" is certainly not a typical translation. The rhetoric figure is "Vergleich" in German, not "Gleichnis".

I could imagine a WR entry like



> 2. <obsolete> _Bibel_ (Ebenbild) image



Existent entry 1 is fine (parable).


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## fdb

elroy said:


> As far as I know, مثل is “parable” or “proverb,” and “simile” is تشبيه.



Mawrid Reader (Wehr p. 1047)





elroy said:


> In any case, I don’t know about the Qur’an, but at least in the Bible the word “parable” doesn’t actually appear.



παραβολή, meaning 3:

Liddell & Scott


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## Kurtchen

berndf said:


> _[...]_because _allegory_ is used, and only used, in profane [sic] contexts and _Gleichnis_ is not.




Quatuor sensus scripturae was one of the cornerstones of medieval exegesis, though 

PS profane could be misconstrued, secular is more common, I think.


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## Kurtchen

elroy said:


> The non-Biblical term for this is "allegory."  That may be a better fit here, depending on the purpose of the translation.  If accessibility and transparency are more important than utmost precision, "allegory" may work better.  "Parable," as in German, is only used in Biblical contexts, and I would imagine many people who are not (religious) Christians would not know the word.



I agree, 'allegory' is a good fit for the original text. 

As for _Parabel_-- used to be Nathan the Wise was part of the German middle school curriculum, but perhaps that's gone down the PC drain as well. The irony


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## Kajjo

berndf said:


> Evocation of a religious context is inescapable in the original German sentence and so it must be in any faithful translation.





Kurtchen said:


> I agree, 'allegory' is a good fit for the original text.


@Kurtchen: So you really don't feel any biblical reference when reading "Gleichnis" in the title verse? Hm, I cannot imagine that.


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## elroy

Kajjo said:


> It should be at least marked as "obsolete" with the synonym "Ebendbild" (image).


 You can report it here. 


fdb said:


> Mawrid Reader (Wehr p. 1047)


 *shrug* Hans Wehr is known to be misleadingly comprehensive (it even includes "lesson"???).  I have no idea why "simile" is listed there, but in modern Arabic, I've never heard مثل used to mean "simile," and this meaning is not listed in Almaany's monolingual dictionaries.  Perhaps this is obsolete, like "simile" for "Gleichnis"? 


fdb said:


> παραβολή, meaning 3:
> 
> Liddell & Scott


 I stand corrected, then.  I was going off of my memory and didn't take the time to check.


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## anahiseri

elroy said:


> in the Bible the word “parable” doesn’t actually appear.


I haven't read the Bible in English, but in the Spanish version of the New Testament, Jesus is often described telling parables.


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## Kurtchen

Where in the the Bible specifically does it say, life is but a game? Shakespeare, I will grant you, would have  but I wouldn't call his words divine


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## berndf

Kurtchen said:


> Where in the the Bible specifically does it say, life is but a game? Shakespeare, I will grant you, would have  but I wouldn't call his words divine


This is the reason:


berndf said:


> Evocation of a religious context is inescapable in the original German sentence and so it must be in any faithful translation.


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## elroy

anahiseri said:


> I haven't read the Bible in English, but in the Spanish version of the New Testament, Jesus is often described telling parables.


 I meant the actual word "parable."  Of course there are many parables in the Bible, but the word "parable" doesn't appear in most cases. 


Kurtchen said:


> profane could be misconstrued, secular is more common, I think.


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## berndf

Kurtchen said:


> PS profane could be misconstrued, secular is more common, I think.


Of course. I wanted to use an ancient term on purpose. I contemplated writing it the old way, _pro*ph*ane_, to make this clear. Maybe I should have.


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## Kajjo

elroy said:


> I meant the actual word "parable." Of course there are many parables in the Bible, but the word "parable" doesn't appear in most cases.


Well, it does, 69 results: BibleGateway - : parable

"Gleichnis" in the new testament, 55 results: BibleGateway - : Gleichnis


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## anahiseri

elroy said:


> I meant the actual word "parable." Of course there are many parables in the Bible, but the word "parable" doesn't appear in most cases.



the actual word "parábola" appears very often in the Spanish version of the Bible.

*Mateo 13:10-17 Reina-Valera 1960 (RVR1960)*
*Propósito de las parábolas*
*(Mr. 4.10-12; Lc. 8.9-10)*
10 Entonces, acercándose los discípulos, le dijeron: ¿Por qué les hablas por parábolas?

11 El respondiendo, les dijo: Porque a vosotros os es dado saber los misterios del reino de los cielos; mas a ellos no les es dado.

12 Porque a cualquiera que tiene, se le dará, y tendrá más; pero al que no tiene, aun lo que tiene le será quitado.

13 Por eso les hablo por parábolas: porque viendo no ven, y oyendo no oyen, ni entienden.

Bible Gateway passage: Mateo 13:10-17 - Reina-Valera 1960


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## Kajjo

Kurtchen said:


> profane could be misconstrued, secular is more common, I think.


Yes, I agree, but I understood Berndf's intentions on using the term "profane". It actually is the right term for "free of sacral, magic properties", and only nowadays misunderstood somehow. But you are right, that in other contexts, "secular" would be a better choice.

Profan – Wikipedia


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## Kajjo

anahiseri said:


> the actual word "parábola" appears very often in the Spanish version of the Bible.


I guess it does so in any language. The term parable (Gleichnis) is actually used in the bible and not only when studying the bible.

Anyway, once again, when reading the title verse, I cannot avoid an association of "Gleichnis" with the bible or at least religious context. Do you agree?


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## anahiseri

I agree. But I dare say this association may fit the context.


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## elroy

I didn’t realize the word “parable” appeared so often - or at all! - in the Old Testament!  It only appears a handful of times in the New Testament, which is where all of Jesus’ parables are, of course.  (Headings don’t count!)


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## Kajjo

anahiseri said:


> But I dare say this association may fit the context.


Well, it fits quite well, I believe.



elroy said:


> It only appears *a handful of times *in the New Testament, which is where all of Jesus’ parables are, of course. (Headings don’t count!)


I count approx. 28 occurences of "Gleichnis" in the new testament (see my link in #31)


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## anahiseri

All of the transient, 
Is *parable*, only:
The insufficient, 
Here, grows to reality: 
The indescribable, 
Here, is done: 
Woman, eternal, 
Beckons us on

I think it sounds nice. I can't find the name of the translator.
Anyway, I think this should settle the issue.
http://www.iowagrandmaster.org/Books in pdf/Faust.pdf


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## Kajjo

anahiseri said:


> All of the transient,
> Is *parable*, only:


Great that you found this translation. At least we are not alone with our interpretation and translation.


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## elroy

Kajjo said:


> I count approx. 28 occurences of "Gleichnis" in the new testament


 You're right; I was wrong.  As I said, I was going off of memory, and it's been a while since I last read the Bible.


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## anahiseri

Kajjo said:


> Great that you found this translation.



I just googled      _Faust English pdf      no big deal   _


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## anahiseri

by the way, I have found this Spanish version. Not that I like it much; in fact I don't like it. But ....

Todo lo que ha ocurrido 
es sólo una *parábola*. 
Lo que es inalcanzable 
se convierte en suceso. 
Lo que es indescriptible 
se ha realizado aquí. 
Lo eterno-femenino. 
nos permite avanzar.


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## elroy

I found a Spanish translation that uses "símbolo":

_Todo lo pasajero
es solamente un símbolo;
se torna en hacedero,
lo inaccesible, aquí.
Lo que el hombre mezquino
no alcanza, aquí cúmplese;
lo eterno femenino
elévanos tras sí._

Link


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## anahiseri

this translation is not as bad as the one I found, and well, "symbol" is not so far off


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## Kajjo

elroy said:


> símbolo


If that means "symbol" it'd be fair enough, in the sense of "image" (Ebenbild) I would be sceptical.


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## anahiseri

Kajjo said:


> I would be sceptical.


what about?


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## Kajjo

anahiseri said:


> what about?


I don't like the interpretation of "Gleichnis = Ebenbild" as discussed in depth above. I regard this translation as obsolete and too far fetched here. "Gleichnis Gottes" is obsolete when it is supposed to mean "Ebenbild Gottes" (current term).

I strongly prefer the interpretation as parable ("Gleichnis" in the current and biblical sense).


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## anahiseri

Kajjo said:


> I don't like the interpretation of "Gleichnis = Ebenbild" as discussed in depth above. I regard this translation as obsolete and too far fetched here. "Gleichnis Gottes" is obsolete when it is supposed to mean "Ebenbild Gottes" (current term).
> 
> I strongly prefer the interpretation as parable ("Gleichnis" in the current and biblical sense).


I thought we had agreed on parable.


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## Kajjo

anahiseri said:


> I thought we had agreed on parable.


I thought so, too.

So, why do you ask why I oppose "image / Ebenbild" as translation?


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## anahiseri

Sorry, Kajjo, misunderstanding.


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## Kurtchen

berndf said:


> Of course. I wanted to use an ancient term on purpose. I contemplated writing it the old way, _pro*ph*ane_, to make this clear. Maybe I should have.



I know that you and I both know the difference. I did feel that clarification was needed for the benefit of non-german readers as the usage of 'profane' in English differs from German _profan_. Again, usage, not core meaning per se.  

PS: Forgot to add that my contention in that post was that your statement 'allegory is never used in religious contexts' is dubitable. The term has been literally used for ages by the church fathers. So if there were any need it could be applied regardless of manner of reading.
Sadly, too many crossed posts (and lines) are making it too hard to keep track of the debate now, however, so I'll leave it at that


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## Kurtchen

berndf said:


> This is the reason:



It isn't to me. In the quotation Simon explicitly discounts various possibilities and posits that it is '_der Ausdruck des Wissens, das alles Vergängliche nur ein Gleichnis und das Leben ein Spiel ist_' which makes me think he was really talking about 'shadows' or simulacra. Yes, there there is the concept of vanitas but why people would feel the need to start quoting Scripture after that is beyond me


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## Koermendi

All that must pass away

Is but a likeness

That which sufficeth not

Here reacheth ripeness

That which words can not grasp

Now here is done

Eternal womanhood

Draweth us on

* * *  Sorry for the old-timey -eth third-person-singular endings.  Using the modern -s I can not come up with a decent equivalent of the last line ("draws us hence on" ?  Hence ?  Get out of here ! ).  * * *  I rather think that Goethe drew here on Plato's cave of shadows, more explicitly than on the Bible ; and in English a "simile" requires the use of "like", all else is metaphor.


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## Hutschi

Hi, I searched for an English translation. There are several. One I found with a rather good translation of Chrorus Mysticus:

Goethe's Faust, Part II. (übersetzt von Leopold J. Bernays)

Page 207 in Page counting



> all that does pass away
> is but a symbol



---

Hier ist ein Essay in Deutsch, dass es etwas erklärt, aber das Wort "Gleichnis" voraussetzt.

https://hans-hinterkeuser.de/data/documents/Chorus-mysticus.pdf


> „Alles Vergängliche ist nur ein Gleichnis.“ Gleichnis wofür? Vergänglich ist allerdings alles, was Menschen, auch Schriftsteller und Dichter, tun und lassen, das Leben, ja sogar die Erde und das Weltall sind vergänglich. Diese Feststellung braucht logischerweise einen dialektischen Gegenpol: das Unvergängliche, das Ewige, das Göttliche, oder wie man es nennen will. Hier wird im ersten Halbsatz schon die Brücke zum letzten Halbsatz geschlagen, wo die Frage, was das Unvergängliche sei, beantwortet wird: „das Ewig-Weibliche“



Überkreuzt mit Koermendi


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