# いつも雨が降っているアイルランドにしてはめずらしく...



## TunS

皆さん、こんにちは。

この文にはある言葉が良く分かれません。赤いでこの言葉を強調した。
I'm having a little difficulty in understanding some parts of this sentence... (highlighted in red)

いつも雨が降っているアイルランドのしてはめずらしく、ここ最近では一番良い天気なのに（宿題をしなければならないので）ますます最悪だ。

どうしてここに「では」を使っていますか。
Why is では used  here?

手伝ってくれてありがとうございます。


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## Morrow

TunS said:


> いつも雨が降っているアイルランド*にしては*めずらしく、ここ最近*で(は)*一番良い天気なのに、宿題をしなければならないので、ますます最悪だ。


This may help you have some idea, though personally, I don't think it is a good example for learners:
It is the brightest day *in recent weeks*, which is so unusual in Ireland, where it (almost) always rains.  But I have homework to do, so now I'm feeling less happy.

For "~にしては," you can usually use "for," which means "considering."
(1) a. She looks young for her age. (_LDCE_)
     b. 彼女の歳*にしては*、若く見える (_or _歳の割りに彼女は若く見える).

If someone begins by saying "アイルランド*にしては*めずらしく," you will be more likely to anticipate that what follows will be "天気が良い" rather than "一番の天気だ."  
And if it is "アイルランド*にしては*めずらしく天気が良い," then it means "The weather is unusually good *for* Ireland [=when you consider what the weather is (usually) like in Ireland].

And "~で(は)" is used to specify the scope in which something is true.  As in English, you need to explain in what way someone or something exceeds all the others of the same class.

(2) a. What's the highest mountain *in* Europe? (_CALD_)
     b. ヨーロッパ*で*もっとも高い山は何<なん>ですか?
(3) a. Mount Elbrus is the highest mountain* in* Europe.
     b. ヨーロッパ*では*、エルブルス山がもっとも高い山です.

Morrow


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## Morrow

We hope this helps you:



> 皆さん、こんにちは。
> 
> 次の[this=the following]文の一部["some" compared with "all"]が良く分かりません=中で分からないところがあります。赤で*該当[がいとう:relevant; at issue]箇所[かしょ: part(s)]*を強調しておきました[or あります/います]。
> I'm having a little difficulty in understanding some parts of this sentence[, where *the relevant parts* are highlighted in red./. (highlighted in red)]:
> ...
> どうしてここ*では*[=*as for* this particular case]「*では*」を使っていますか。
> Why is では used  here?
> 
> 手伝ってくれてありがとうございます。



Morrow


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## TunS

Thanks Morrow-san, great help as usual! 

So　「アイルランのしてはめずらしく」　is wrong, and should actually be 「 アイルランドにしてはめずらしく」.

Thanks for the correction too, I still make a lot of mistakes, but there's no better way to learn. 

"どうしてここ*では*[=*as for* this particular case]「*では*」を使っていますか。
Why is では used  here?" 

Haha, that was ironic!


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## Morrow

If you don't mind, let me finish what I left out in my earlier post.

Seen from information structure, it is possible to translate (4) in different ways.  Among the most useful are (5a) and (5b).
(4) Mount Elbrus is the highest mountain in Europe. [=(3a)]
(5) a. ヨーロッパ*では*、エルブルス山がもっとも高い山です. [=(3b)]
     b. エルブルス山は、ヨーロッパ*で*もっとも高い山です.
"ヨーロッパで" is a locative expression that also specifies the area where it is true that Mount Elbrus exceeds the other mountains in height.  When you add "は" and move the whole expression to sentence-initial position, you are topicalizing the phrase.   Since locative expressions (as well as temporal expressions) usually set a scene, it will come as no surprise that they can serve as a topic at informational level.

If you consult dictionaries, you will find that "では" comprises で(格助詞) and は(係助詞).  Once you understand "は" comes from 係助詞, you can rightly predict that you can use "~では" to suggest that there is an implicit comparison.  

(6) a. 《格助詞「で」+係助詞「は」》 …で。…においては。…を用いては。
_今日では問題にされない_　(_大辞泉_)
    b. 格助詞「で」に係助詞「は」の付いたもの→で(格助)
    (格助)[2] 動作・作用が行われる時を表す。	
   (ア) 動作が行われる時期を表す。「では」「でも」の形をとることが多い。 
_現在では、簡単に解決する問題だ_ (_大辞林_)

As you can see from (7a) and (7b) below (where the comparisons are made explicit), the sentences given by 大辞泉 and 大辞林  are both examples with 比較・対象の"は."
(7) a. 以前*は*問題にされたが、今日で*は*問題にされない.
     b. 以前*は*解決が難しい問題だったが、現在で*は*、簡単に解決する問題だ.

In English, you can choose "no longer" to express the understood comparisons.
(8) a. It is no longer a problem.
     b. It is no longer difficult to deal with.

I think this may help you as the first approximation.

Morrow


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## TunS

Thanks Morrow-san, added detail is always welcome!



Morrow said:


> If you consult dictionaries, you will find that "では" comprises で(格助詞) and は(係助詞).  Once you understand "は" comes from 係助詞, you can rightly predict that you can use "~では" to suggest that there is an implicit comparison.
> 
> As you can see from (7a) and (7b) below (where the comparisons are made explicit), the sentences given by 大辞泉 and 大辞林  are both examples with 比較・対象の"は."
> (7) a. 以前*は*問題にされたが、今日で*は*問題にされない.
> b. 以前*は*解決が難しい問題だったが、現在で*は*、簡単に解決する問題だ.
> Morrow



I think I'm getting the idea. 

So in (5a) *で**は *is implying that there is a comparison too, like in (7a) and (7b):
E.g.
ヨーロッパ*では*、エルブルス山がもっとも高い山です（が、世界ではもっとも高い山じゃありません。）
Mount Elbrus is the highest mountain in Europe(、but it isn't the highest mountain in the world.)

Or is it simply acting as a topic marker?


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## Morrow

TunS said:


> ヨーロッパ*では*、エルブルス山がもっとも高い山ですが、世界*全体**では*もっとも高い山じゃ[=では]ありません。
> Mount Elbrus is the highest mountain in Europe、but it isn't the highest mountain in the world.


I think you're right.  It's also possible to interpret the "は" as being contrastive.

In fact, the listener tends to interpret "は" as a contrastive marker, even when the speaker intends it as a topic marker.
(9) A: 今日*は*、きれいだね.
     B: いつもブスで悪かったわね!

In most cases, however, further context will help you decide which is the intended use.  
(10) A: アジア大陸でもっとも高い山はエベレスト山ですが、ヨーロッパ大陸*では*どこがもっとも高い山ですか?
       B: ヨーロッパ大陸*では*、エルブルス山(がもっとも高い山)です. 

"は" in *では* works as a contrastive marker, while "は" in *では* serves as a topic marker. 

But the first thing you have to do is pay attention to what the two "では" have in common.  Have a look at this again: 

(11)  《格助詞「で」+係助詞「は」》 …で。…においては。…を用いては。[=(6a)]
大辞泉 tells you two things.  One thing is that "では" may mean the same as "で."  In fact, both the "で" of "アジア大陸で" in (10) and the "では" of "ヨーロッパ大陸では," which appears twice in (10), have the same function.  In what way?  The other thing is about the answer to this question: You can replace both "で" and "では" with the same expression of "...においては," which means "as far as ... is concerned."   In other words, you can use "で(は)" to define or specify the scope in which something is true.

Morrow
NB1 
"...を用いて" in "...を用いては" comes from "use."  
(i) これは、現代科学*では*解決できない問題だ。(This is not a problem that modern science can solve.)
If you translate it as "This is [beyond/not *within*] the reach of modern science, however, you can still see a similar logic working behind: whether something is true in a certain area.
NB2
Recently, more and more people see "は" in terms of とりたて詞.  But it is not clear whether 主題(topic)の"は" is also "とりたて詞."  For example, some say, "主題としてとりたてる."  But generally, "とりたて詞" is used to put a focus on something in a sentence.  You will infer from the focus what can be implicitly compared, so "とりたて詞" is contrastive in nature.


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## TunS

Hey thanks for the added information Morrow-san. I really appreciate the effort you put into your posts.



Morrow said:


> (10) A: アジア大陸でもっとも高い山はエベレスト山ですが、ヨーロッパ大陸*では*どこがr高い山ですか?
> B: ヨーロッパ大陸*では*、エルブルス山(がもっとも高い山)です.
> 
> "は" in *では* works as a contrastive marker, while "は" in *では* serves as a topic marker.
> 
> But the first thing you have to do is pay attention to what the two "では" have in common.  Have a look at this again:
> 
> (11)  《格助詞「で」+係助詞「は」》 …で。…においては。…を用いては。[=(6a)]
> 大辞泉 tells you two things.  One thing is that "では" may mean the same as "で."  In fact, both the "で" of "アジア大陸で" in (10) and the "では" of "ヨーロッパ大陸では," which appears twice in (10), have the same function.  In what way?  The other thing is about the answer to this question: You can replace both "で" and "では" with the same expression of "...においては," which means "as far as ... is concerned."   In other words, you can use "で(は)" to define or specify the scope in which something is true.



I think I'm getting the hang of this, but I'll need to go back and look at　で and は separately though. I think I should obtain a more solid knowledge of them individually, then try and tackle the task of using the particles together.  I may be 'jumping the gun' so to speak!


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## Morrow

TunS said:


> but I'll need to go back and look at　で and は separately though.


Probably, "は" is the one that troubles us most.
Actually, multiple occurences of "は" is possible as in (i), but it is not easy to distinguish among them.  We can't tell whether it's worth distinguishing, in the first place. 

(i) 今週*は*、アイルランド*は*、天気*は*、いいですが、到着なさる頃に*は*、天気*は*下り坂になりそうで、お勧めしたものとして*は*責任を感じておりまして、お客様に*は*申し訳なく思っております次第です.

Yes, for now, I think we need to go back, and let's think about "最近では" and "最近では" only. 

I'll be back, soon.

Morrow


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## Morrow

I'd say that there are two ideas that can go along with "最近では."  One is about the idea of frequency: happening most often (_or_ rarely happening).  The other is about the idea of the superlative.  (12a) and (12b) are examples of each category, respectively.

(12) a. 人前でキスをするなんて光景は最近*[では/*で/は/でこそ]*珍しくないことだ.   (Recently, it is not unusual to see people kissing in public.)
       b. この曲は最近*[では/で/*は/*でこそ]*一番のヒット曲だ.
         (This is the biggest hit song in recent [times/months/memory].)

The former type invokes an implicit comparison or contrast.  (12a) implies either (13a) or (13b). 

(13) a. 人前でキスをするなんて光景は、*最近でこそ*珍しくないが、*昔は*考えられない(unimaginable)ことだった.
       b. 人前でキスをするなんて光景は*昔は*考えられなったが、*最近では*珍しくないことだ.

As for the latter case, you don't always have to use "一番の" to indicate that something is the best/worst in some sense.  For example, you can use (14) to mean the acceptable versions of (12b). 

(14) この曲は最近(の中)ではヒット曲だ.

(15a) virtually means the same as (15b), but the same doesn't seem to apply to (14).

(15) a. English is the subject I like.
       b. I like English best (of all the subjects).

Do you think (16) is fine in the intended sense?
(16) This is the hit song (released) in recent times.

Morrow
NB 
As for "は" in (12a), if you move it together with "最近" to sentence-initial position, the resultative sentence sounds even better. 
(i) 最近[では/は]、人前でキスをするなんて光景は珍しくないことだ.
I'd like to leave pending the question of whether "は" in "最近は" is a topic marker or contrastive marker, as well as the question of whether this approach (topic versus contrastive)  is useful in the first place.


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## TunS

Thanks Again Morrow-san, it's definitely starting to make sense to me. 



Morrow said:


> (14) この曲は最近(の中)ではヒット曲だ.
> 
> Do you think (16) is fine in the intended sense?
> (16) This is the(maybe 'a'?) hit song (released) in recent times.



But I think it may sound better to say..

**This is a recently released hit song.** 

Without the 一番の, I think it could imply that the song was successful, but not necessarily the most successful. What do you think? I may be missing the original Japanese meaning. 




Morrow said:


> (i) 今週*は*、アイルランド*は*、天気*は*、いいですが、到着なさる頃に*は*、天気*は*下り坂になりそうで、お勧めしたものとして*は*責任を感じておりまして、お客様に*は*申し訳なく思っております次第です.



I've never seen so many *は *in one sentence!


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## Morrow

TunS said:


> This is a recently released hit song.


The position of the word "released" is quite interesting.  
Thank you for your help and comments, TunS-san.

We will get the same result when we use "最近(の中)では" in a relative clause. Both (17a) and (17b) mean (18) (though you can offer another analysis, saying that "(の中)では" comes instead from the defining function that the restrictive relative clause has.)   

(17) a. *最近*読んだ本(の中)*では*面白い.
       b. *最近*読んだ本(の中)*では*一番面白い.　
(18) This is the most interesting book I've read recently.

"最近(の中)では" implies that something is* the only thing* that is relevant during the vaguely specified period," so you can safely infer that by (17a) the speaker actually means (17b). 

Morrow
As you may notice, sometimes the difference between "は" and "が" can be similar to the difference between "a(n)" and "the."

(When talking about school subjects)
(i) 英語*は*好きです/英語*は*好きな科目です (English is *a *subject I like.)
(ii) 英語*が*好きです/英語*が*好きな科目です (English is *the* subject I like.)
For (i), you're just saying that English belongs to the group of school subjects you like.  But for (ii), you're identifying the school subject you like.


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## Morrow

> 今週*は*、アイルランド*は*、天気*は*、いいですが、到着なさる頃に*は*、天気*は*下り坂になりそうで、お勧めしたものとして*は*責任を感じておりまして、お客様に*は*申し訳なく思っております次第です.



=今週*の*アイルランド(は)、天気[は/が]いいですが、...
=今週は、アイルランド*の*天気[は/が]いいですが、...
=今週*の*アイルランド*の*天気はいいですが、...
=アイルランドは、今週*(の)*天気[は/が]いいですが、...
=今週、アイルランドは、天気[は/が]いいですが、...
=今週、アイルランド*の*天気はいいですが、...

Morrow


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## TunS

As always, I'm very grateful Morrow-san. 



Morrow said:


> ==今週*の*アイルランド(は)、天気[は/が]いいですが、...
> =今週は、アイルランド*の*天気[は/が]いいですが、...
> =今週*の*アイルランド*の*天気はいいですが、...
> =アイルランドは、今週*(の)*天気[は/が]いいですが、...
> =今週、アイルランドは、天気[は/が]いいですが、...
> =今週、アイルランド*の*天気はいいですが、...
> 
> Morrow



I can't believe that there is so many ways to say the same thing; Japanese is very, very versatile!

I had my suspicions that there was a distinction like that between は and が . Although I have been learning Japanese for a while now, I still find myself wondering whether to use one or the other, and the "the/a" theory sort of helps!




Morrow said:


> (17) a. *最近*読んだ本(の中)*では*面白い.
> b. *最近*読んだ本(の中)*では*一番面白い.
> (18) This is the most interesting book I've read recently.



I have to take note of this grammar point and do a few examples, I think I find the omission of the superlative (even though its meaning still implied) quite difficult to get used to.


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## Morrow

TunS said:


> I can't believe that there is so many ways to say the same thing; Japanese is very, very versatile!


Sometimes, you can replace "が" with "は" without any significant difference in meaning.
(19) a. 東京は物価*が*高い.
       b. 東京の物価*は*高い.

And in mid-sentence position, it may not make a difference whether you choose "が" or "は."
(20) a. 東京は物価*が*高いが,治安はよい.
       b. 東京は物価*は*高いが,治安はよい.
"治安は" tells you that "治安" is a newly introduced topic that the speaker expects you to identify as contrasted with "物価."

But when you put the sentence into a still larger sentence, you can (but don't have to) change "治安は" to "治安が." 
(21) 東京は物価[が/は]高いが,治安*が*よいことで知られている.

Morrow


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## Morrow

TunS said:


> I have to take note of this grammar point and do a few examples, I think I find the omission of the superlative (even though its meaning still implied) quite difficult to get used to.



I have to say that "最近では" is restricted in use. 
(22) a. 最近、調子がいい.
       b. 最近は、調子がいい.
       c. *?*最近では、調子がいい.
(22b) implies that your condition was bad until recently, but (22a) could also suggest that your condition is even better (or has turned better).  If you want to fix (22c), this may work:
(23) a. 最近では、*一番*調子がいい.
       b. 最近では、調子が*上向きだ*[=よくなってきている(is improving)].
In my view, what goes well with "最近では" is either someone or something that is best in some point or the changing situation (but not the resultative one).

(24) a. ケンは、最近見た選手(の中)では、素質が(一番)よい.
       b. ケンは、最近見た選手(の中)では、素質がよいほうだ.
I think we can safely say that the difference between (23a) and (24a) is similar in a sense to the difference between (25a) and (25b).  (23a) is related to comparison between different aspects or qualities of the same person or thing, while (24a) has to do with comparison between different people or things. 
(25) a. The lake is deepest here.
       b. The lake is the deepest in Japan.
When talking about different people or things as in (24a), you can delete "一番" without changing the basic meaning.
And for (24b), "ほうだ(方だ)" means something like "belong to/be classified as."
So, (24b) is saying that Ken's abilities are relatively good (and not the best).

Morrow


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## TunS

Thanks for these few sentences Morrow-san, its good to know that the rules around  "が" and "は" aren't so stringent, because when trying to speak Japanese, I sometimes hesitate to think which one to use. 



Morrow said:


> Sometimes, you can replace "が" with "は" without any significant difference in meaning.
> (19) a. 東京は物価*が*高い.
> b. 東京の物価*は*高い.
> 
> And in mid-sentence position, it may not make a difference whether you choose "が" or "は."
> (20) a. 東京は物価*が*高いが,治安はよい.
> b. 東京は物価*は*高いが,治安はよい.
> "治安は" tells you that "治安" is a newly introduced topic that the speaker expects you to identify as contrasted with "物価."
> 
> But when you put the sentence into a still larger sentence, you can (but don't have to) change "治安は" to "治安が."
> (21) 東京は物価[が/は]高いが,治安*が*よいことで知られている.
> 
> Morrow



Just out of curiosity, is (26) c. correct? Do a. and c. have the same meaning? (Just to test my learning ).

  （26 a.）　この映画では主人公が犯人だったというのが一番面白かった。 
b.The most interesting part of this film, was that the main character was the criminal. 
   c.この映画の中では主人公が犯人だったというのが面白かった。


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## Morrow

TunS said:


> Do a. and c. have the same meaning?
> (26) a. この映画では主人公が犯人だった(という)のが一番面白かった。
> c. この映画(の中)では主人公が犯人だった(という)のが面白かった。


You are exactly right.  I think both mean the same.

Other candidates include:

(27)a. この映画で(一番)面白かったのは、主人公が犯人だった(という)ことだ.
      b. この映画で(一番)面白かったのは、犯人[が/は]主人公だった(という)ことだ.
　　　 c. この映画では、犯人[が/*?*は]主人公だった(という)のが(一番)面白かった.
      d. 主人公が犯人[(だった)というの/だったの]が、この映画で(一番)面白かった[点/こと]だ.
　　　e. 犯人[が/は]主人公[(だった)というの/だったの]が、この映画で(一番)面白かった[点/こと]だ.

For (27c), "は" will be OK if you utter the string of words of "犯人は主人公だった" as a "single" constituent.  If you put a pause after "犯人は,"  the whole sentence will sound odd unless you insert "[点/こと]だ" at the end of (27c).     


Morrow



TunS said:


> Just to test my learning


This kind of question is always welcome.   It's good to test one's learning.  Someone else may have the same question(s).  And it's fun to test one's knowledge and competence.  No one is perfect and there may be a new discovery.


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## TunS

I can't thank you enough Morrow-san, I have learnt so much more in the last few weeks, than I did in the months before. It's so much less frustrating having a better knowledge of the particles (in particular は＆が), now when I browse through websites, my biggest problem (though, I do still have a lot to learn in terms of grammar) is Kanji and new vocabulary -　and I think I can handle them!
手伝っていただき、どうもありがとうございます。


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