# Urdu/Persian: hanūz



## panjabigator

Is the word <hanūz> used colloquially in Urdu to mean "yet" or "still?"

And what would it mean here: <hanūz dehlī dūr ast>? The dictionary suggests "there is many a slip between the cup and the lid," but I haven't a clue what this means.


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## bakshink

In Hindi this idiom exists as Abhi Dilli  door hai. (Delhi/The Capital city of India). and it means- There is many a slip between the cup and the lips. If as I learn now, it exists in Persian too then it might have originated during Mughal invasions of India, because conquering Delhi was the goal and for reaching there- many battles would be required to be fought and won.


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## BP.

You're right about your assumption, it means still and yet. The closest Urdu word I could think of would be badastoor: بدستور.

The expression <hanūz dehlī dūr ast> can't be explained without a history lesson. Can't say if the event is true, but can say so much that you being from the Punjab will understand. Here goes: the king of the time was upset with the famous sufi Nizamuddin Auliya, and upon his return to Dilli, had plans to get him killed. He was returning to Dilli and had reached almost its suburbs. Nizamuddin saahab's faithfuls kept exhorting him to scram and save himself, but he said the famous phrase _hunooz dilli door ast_ and just sat there. Somewhere outside of the city, the king fell off his elephant and died.

So yes, sometimes there's many  a slip between the cup and the lip!


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## Cilquiestsuens

BelligerentPacifist said:


> You're right about your assumption, it means still and yet. The closest Urdu word I could think of would be badastoor: بدستور.
> 
> The expression <hanūz dehlī dūr ast> can't be explained without a history lesson. Can't say if the event is true, but can say so much that you being from the Punjab will understand. Here goes: the king of the time was upset with the famous sufi Nizamuddin Auliya, and upon his return to Dilli, had plans to get him killed. He was returning to Dilli and had reached almost its suburbs. Nizamuddin saahab's faithfuls kept exhorting him to scram and save himself, but he said the famous phrase _hunooz dilli door ast_ and just sat there. Somewhere outside of the city, the king fell off his elephant and died.
> 
> So yes, sometimes there's many a slip between the cup and the lip!


 
Yes, good to know you know this story of Hazrat Nizamuddin Awliya (RUA)!!!

I have the impression that in Urdu, Hanooz (pronounced Hunooz by some) may be understood as ab tak -til now, while in Farsi it just means ab -now.


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## lcfatima

In terms of colloquial register, I have never heard this "hanooz" being used.


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## panjabigator

Thank you all for the history lesson and the vocab info.


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## xcessdenied

Actually the word "hunooz" is used in Urdu to date and is pronounced variably as either "hanooz" or "hunooz". In both Urdu and Farsi/Persian, hunooz means the same thing "Yet, Still" (also "taa haal"). 
And in Pakistan at least, I ve mostly seen people use the Farsi words "hunooz Dilli duur ast". Its easy enough to comprehend for most Urdu speakers.

I have actually heard another story for the proverb. Apparently Mughal king Mohammad Shah Rangila was the one who coined this famous phrase. He was, as his nickname suggests, lazy and indulgent. When Nader Shah attached Delhi sultanate, the reply of Mohd Shah to any entreaty for fast action by the emperor was "Hunooz Dilli duur ast". Apparently he kept on saying this and Nader Shah entered Delhi conquering it, murdering thousands and getting the "Takht i Taoos" and "Koh i Noor" and "Darya e Noor" in bounty.


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## Faylasoof

Yes, in both Persian and Urdu ہنوز means the same: “yet / still”.

But, as is typical, the <و> between the two languages is pronounced differently; being shorter in Urdu. 

In Lakhnavi Urdu (and I think the same is true of the Dehlavi Urdu dialect), ہنوز is pronounced _hanoz_ and not _hanooz_.

Here it is being used in the same way by the same poet.

_*Persian*_
غبار ِ طرف ِ مزارم پیچ و تابی ھست
ہنوز در رگ ِ اندیشہ اضطرابی ھست
_ghubaar e Taraf e mazaaram piich o taabii hast_
_hanooz dar rag e andiisheh ezTeraabii hast!_


_*Urdu*_
آرائشِ جمال سے فارغ نہیں ہنوز
پیشِ نظر ہے آئینہ دائم نقاب میں 
_aaraa’ish e jamaal se faarigh nahii.n hanoz_
_pesh e naZar hai aa’iinah daa’im naqaab mei.n_


مرزا اسد اللّہ خان غالب
_Mirza Asadullah Khan Ghalib_


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## arsham

Faylasoof said:


> In Lakhnavi Urdu (and I think the same is true of the Dehlavi Urdu dialect), ہنوز is pronounced _hanoz_ and not _hanooz_.


 
That's interesting, given that the Classical pronunciation was also hanooz! (cf. Mid. Pers. ahanooz)


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## Faylasoof

arsham said:


> That's interesting, given that the Classical pronunciation was also hanooz! (cf. Mid. Pers. ahanooz)



Oh yes! I noticed this when I was learning Persian as I kept looking up words in not only Modern Persian but also Middle Persian lexicons! 

We seem to have retained quite some things from the Classical language, as was once discussed in one of our threads. For instances, we've sort of retained the pronunciation of many endings found in the Classical, e.g. _piyaad*a*h_ (Urdu) and _piyaad*a*g_ (Pahlavi) versus _piyaad*e*h_ in present-day Persian. 

As for our _hanoz_, as I say above, the only difference is the slightly shorter <o> , which rhymes with that in the English word _dose_.



lcfatima said:


> In terms of colloquial register, I have never heard this "hanooz" being used.



You wouldn't! It is quite literary and that too now heard mostly in poetry though some prose writers may also opt for it. Rare in the latter, I have to say. But Urdu poetry would still use it.


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## arsham

Faylasoof said:


> Oh yes! I noticed this when I was learning Persian as I kept looking up words in not only Modern Persian but also Middle Persian lexicons!
> 
> We seem to have retained quite some things from the Classical language, as was once discussed in one of our threads. For instances, we've sort of retained the pronunciation of many endings found in the Classical, e.g. _piyaad*a*h_ (Urdu) and _piyaad*a*g_ (Pahlavi) versus _piyaad*e*h_ in present-day Persian.
> 
> As for our _hanoz_, as I say above, the only difference is the slightly shorter <o> , which rhymes with that in the English word _dose_.
> 
> 
> 
> You wouldn't! It is quite literary and that too now heard mostly in poetry though some prose writers may also opt for it. Rare in the latter, I have to say. But Urdu poetry would still use it.


 
I have noticed that too, but in the case of hanuz, the classical pronunciation and also that of Middle Persian are with a long u not long o!
I meant uu by writing hanooz!


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## BP.

Faylasoof said:


> In Lakhnavi Urdu (and I think the same is true of the Dehlavi Urdu dialect), ہنوز is pronounced _hanoz_ and not _hanooz_.



That's interesting, since we pronounce it with an acute _wao _i.e. _hanuuz_. Infact I used to pronounces it _hunuuz_.


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## Faylasoof

arsham said:


> I have noticed that too, but in the case of hanuz, the classical pronunciation and also that of Middle Persian are with a long u not long o!
> I meant uu by writing hanooz!



Oh! I see, it seems we are using slightly variant rules of transliteration! Well, that is how we pronounce it too when speaking Persian! So reciting Ghalib's Farsi verse our (your and mine) _han*uu*z_ would be the same! 

As for the Urdu pronunciation, we'd say it like this: _han*oo*z_ - rhyming the <oo> with _dose_.




BelligerentPacifist said:


> That's interesting, since we pronounce it with an acute _wao _i.e. _hanuuz_. Infact I used to pronounces it _hunuuz_.



I've just clarified this above! It is acute when we speak Farsi but not when we speak Urdu! 

Just like شور _shoor / shor_ or گور _goor / gor._ 

In the above post I used the single <o>  because we use it when transliterating the Urdu کو = ko! Although one could say, our Urdu _hanooz / hanoz_  is ever so slightly longer than the کو. Not easily noticeable to the untrained ear!

But there are exceptions to all this! 

In the name  تیمور , we say it as _Taym*uu*r_ / _Taim*uu*r_ when speaking Urdu. When speaking Farsi, we say _T*ii*__m*uu*r_. So, the second syllable - with the <و> - is acute in both. Only the first syllable is different here.
 
Also, for the word مور  we have two different ways of saying the  <و>!!

When we mean:  مور _mor / moor_ =  peacock  =  طاوﺅس _­Taa’uus _ <- used only in Urdu poetry, then the <و> in this مور is pronounced as our Urdu _hanooz_!

But when by  مور  we mean the ant (used as this only in our poetry),  then we say it with an acute <و> , i.e. _m*uu*r_ , like our Farsi _han*uu*z_ and of course our Farsi مور! This is to distinguish this Urdu-Persian مور _m*uu*r_ (= ant) from the Urdu-Hindi مور _moor / mor_  (= peacock).


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## Cilquiestsuens

xcessdenied said:


> Actually the word "hunooz" is used in Urdu to date and is pronounced variably as either "hanooz" or "hunooz". In both Urdu and Farsi/Persian, hunooz means the same thing "Yet, Still" (also "taa haal").
> And in Pakistan at least, I ve mostly seen people use the Farsi words "hunooz Dilli duur ast". Its easy enough to comprehend for most Urdu speakers.
> 
> I have actually heard another story for the proverb. Apparently Mughal king Mohammad Shah Rangila was the one who coined this famous phrase. He was, as his nickname suggests, lazy and indulgent. When Nader Shah attached Delhi sultanate, the reply of Mohd Shah to any entreaty for fast action by the emperor was "Hunooz Dilli duur ast". Apparently he kept on saying this and Nader Shah entered Delhi conquering it, murdering thousands and getting the "Takht i Taoos" and "Koh i Noor" and "Darya e Noor" in bounty.


 
This is very interesting. I however think that the Nizamuddin Awliya's quote predates it by a few centuries and has some historical proof to it (the book written by Dev in Persian, the Hindu disciple of the above Murshid but I have to check that the quote is in the book... although I am pretty sure it is).

Do you have any references to share about Shah Rangila using the quote?


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## xcessdenied

As for the pronunciation, I am unsure of the Lakhnavi pronunciation to be honest. But, the Urdu, as spoken in Pakistan, uses the prolonged "o" (rarely with a "uu" sound). So when we speak, we say either "hunooz" or "hanooz" and both "oo" rhyme with "loose" and not "dose" or "rose". 

It's interesting since a lot of other words with "wau" use shortened sounds compared to farsi e.g. most people will say "Roz" and not "Rooz" (as in the day) but then for words using "roz" such as "Imrooz" and "Afrooz" or "Naurooz", the pronunciation with "oo" is considered correct/better. 

You would also note that more academic you are, or older you are, you are prone to using the prolonged "oo" or "uu" instead of the shorter one where both are correct e.g. when pronouncing "Europe" in Urdu.

I'm unsure to what extent is this a conspiracy of Muqtadra .

As for the legend, I am afraid I cannot remember the exact historic reference right now. However, this is the predominant version you will hear, at least in Pakistan. I believe, this was also the explanation given when the proverb/saying was taught in textbooks. If you were to google it, you would find numerous people repeating the Mohd. Shah story. Actually, Hunooz Dili duur ast has become the distinguishing feature of Mohd. Shah in general around us.

Am I the only one speaking the 'Pakistani' version of Urdu (Yes, I know there is no official version called the 'Pakistani' version, but still.)


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## xcessdenied

sorry, I meant "often" with a "uu" sound as well. (it came out as "rarely"). However, that is generally the 'academic' or 'literary' circle, so its not quite as generic.


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## Faylasoof

xcessdenied said:


> As for the pronunciation, I am unsure of the Lakhnavi pronunciation to be honest.



 I’ve this explained above! 

 I lived in Pakistan (Karachi) for a long time and the pronunciation of this word varied, so it is incorrect to say
 

[/QUOTE]


 xcessdenied said:


> …the Urdu, as spoken in Pakistan, uses the prolonged "o" … So when we speak, we say either "hunooz" or "hanooz" and both "oo" rhyme with "loose" and not "dose" or "rose".



 The pronunciation depended on which region (of India or Pakistan) someone or their family came from. 
 


xcessdenied said:


> It's interesting since a lot of other words with "wau" use shortened sounds compared to farsi e.g. most people will say "Roz" and not "Rooz" (as in the day…



 It is _not_ shortened in Urdu vs. Farsi. *The vowel length is the same*. _Just that Farsi always makes the <__و__> acute, while in Urdu we generally don’t, unless it is:_
 a) By convention, e.g. the name تیمور =  _Taym*uu*r_ / _Taim*uu*r_
 b) Avoid confusion of two words spelt the same way but different meaning. e.g. Urdu-Persian مور muur (= ant) from the Urdu-Hindi مور moor / mor (= peacock).

 The normal Urdu <و> is not an acute sound, as you note yourself, in _roz_ / _r*oo*z_ and _not_ _r*uu*z_. I think that is what you meant.



xcessdenied said:


> … but then for words using "roz" such as"Imrooz" and "Afrooz" or "Naurooz", the pronunciation with "oo" is considered correct/better.



In Farsi (again, represented by <*uu*>) yes! But in Urdu: _Nauroz_ = _Naurooz*_; this is heard most often and not _Naur*uu*z_. 

 * This less than satisfactory transliteration representing the long non-acute <و>, as opposed to <uu>, the acute sound for the same letter.
 


xcessdenied said:


> Am I the only one speaking the 'Pakistani' version of Urdu (Yes, I know there is no official version called the 'Pakistani' version, but still.)



 I completely agree


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## xcessdenied

hmm, yes, thanks for correcting me, i did mean the 'acute' sound and not the length of the vowel itself. 

Within Pakistan, the version of Urdu heard in Karachi, or anywhere else in the country where the communities of Muslims from India abound, you are bound to hear very different version/sounds/idioms of urdu. They are more than likely to adhere to the Lakhnavi, Dehlavi or whatever other flavor of Urdu they were/are proud of and accustomed to. You cannot generalize that for the rest of the country and inner provinces. 

(For instance, somewhere else in this forum someone mentioned 'Kay bajay hain'  or even 'Kia bajay hain', as a translation for 'what time is it'. While technically correct, this statement is more than likely to get you some stares and smirks from Urdu speakers in Pakistan. )

In the rest of the country, the pronunciation is pretty consistent, even if the 'intonation' differs slightly. Hence, the mention that a pronunciation of 'hanuz' that rhymes remotely with 'dose' or 'rose' or the 'moor/mor' (peacock) in urdu, would be corrected to rhyme with 'loose' or 'taimuur'. 

( Between 'oo' and 'uu' and not being an expert on transliteration, I always considered the 'oo' and 'uu' sounds to be different, where the 'oo' was representative of the acute 'wau' and hence 'moor' would be the pronunciation for 'moor=ant'. On the other hand, a 'uu' sounded more like a 'yu' sound, something which you find in words originating in Turkish, e.g. the word 'Nilgun' (bluish). It can be pronounced as Neel-goon, or as Neel-guun, the second one rhyming more with the original Turkish pronunciation where 'uu' sounds like 'yu')


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## xcessdenied

Being a speaker of both Urdu and Dari, I ve never noticed a difference of pronunciation of the words under consideration - anyhow, it is completely possible that I am misunderstanding something here, since this discussion seems to have dragged on. I am unsure if you consider the 'wau' with a 'pesh' on it as a 'long vowel' or an 'acute vowel'.


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## BP.

The Turkish acute u (let me transliterate it as ü for now) is IMK absent in Urdu, Hindi, Farsi etc. On this site we use _uu _to mean _oo_. So words common to Turkish like _bülbül_, _chünaa.nche_ are pronounced with our _pesh _sound.



> I am unsure if you consider the 'wau' with a 'pesh' on it as a 'long vowel' or an 'acute vowel'.


Two cases:
1- as it usually turns out to be a silent _wao_, so we just pronounce the _pesh _i.e. a _u_, e.g. _khurdanii_-edible.
2- it is a long, acute, non-dipthonged _wao _as in _chuuraa_-ground(powdered).


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## xcessdenied

BelligerentPacifist said:


> The Turkish acute u (let me transliterate it as ü for now) is IMK absent in Urdu, Hindi, Farsi etc.



Yes, officially there is no acute u in either language. But in certain communities/regions where the original pronunciation has stuck, you will sometimes see the words being pronounced with a 'ü' (esp. when someone is saying 'begüm'  vs the Urdu 'begum')

I was, finally, able to find a pronunciation for the 'hanuz' here, as I ve known it in Urdu:

http://comet.cls.yale.edu/picturedi...a=&l=1&v=&point=&gpos=&id=1555&at=7&ch=4&ph=2

and thanks, the translit. comments have been very helpful 
Cheers!


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## Faylasoof

Before I begin, let me say how some of us are using the rules of transliteration which are, btw, still a little variable though most of the time we know what everyone is saying.

I think the original confusion about ہنوز that arose between myself and Arsham was to do with this variation in transliteration of the <و> sound and the difference between way we pronounce it in Urdu and Farsi.  So let us do it this way;

For:
-_ pesh_ we use _u_, e.g. _dur_ دُر= pearl 
- long acute -> _uu_, e.g. _duur_ دُور= far  (Some use _oo_ for this, but perhaps we should stick to _uu_) - rhymes with _ruse_. 
- long “obtuse” -> _oo_, e.g. _Door_ ڈُور= cord (Some use _o_ for this, but perhaps we should stick to _oo_) -  rhymes with _rose_. 
[The diphthong is not really relevant to all this but I’ll include it for completeness: _daur _دَور = turn ]
 


xcessdenied said:


> …Within Pakistan, the version of Urdu heard in Karachi, or anywhere else in the country where the communities of Muslims from India abound, you are bound to hear very different version/sounds/idioms of urdu. They are more than likely to adhere to the Lakhnavi, Dehlavi or whatever other flavor of Urdu they were/are proud of and accustomed to. You cannot generalize that for the rest of the country and inner provinces.


 No! I wasn't generalising! What I said above was:


Faylasoof said:


> The pronunciation depended on which region (of India or Pakistan) someone or their family came from.


 
This is a fact. Regional accents of a language that is spoken by some only 1/10 persons in Pakistan as a mother tongue is hardly surprising given that even if it were the mother tongue of the majority there would be regional differences, as we see for most languages in most countries.



xcessdenied said:


> In the rest of the country, the pronunciation is pretty consistent, even if the 'intonation' differs slightly. Hence, the mention that a pronunciation of 'hanuz' that rhymes remotely with 'dose' or 'rose' or the 'moor/mor' (peacock) in urdu, would be corrected to rhyme with 'loose' or 'taimuur'.


 I may have based in Karachi but certainly wasn’t confined to it. Visiting Hyderabad (Sind), Multan, Lahore, Islamabad, Rawalpindi, Faisalabad, Quetta and even Peshawar (the latter two were a lot quieter then!), not to mention many smaller towns, the only thing I found consistent was the inconsistency of Urdu – both grammar and pronunciation!!

Sorry, I beg to differ! My experience tells me otherwise! Most whom I met can’t speak Urdu worth the name!  If, as you say, _mor_ (peacock) is pronounced as _muur _(in some region that you are familiar with but I’m not), then it just proves my point. This is not correct Urdu.

I shall not repeat what I’ve already said above in post # 13 about the recognised differences between the way <و> I pronounced between Urdu and Farsi. There are exceptions in Urdu which I point out but I Persian <و> is for the words under consideration is always like <_uu_> - long acute as per rules explained in this post above.

According to thses rules ہنوز in Farsi (and it seems by some Urdu speakers) is pronounced as_ h*a*n*uu*z _or even _h*u*n*uu*z_. But we say _h*a*n*oo*z_!


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## xcessdenied

Yes, thanks. I do see the translit. conventions now.



xcessdenied said:


> In the rest of the country, the pronunciation is pretty consistent, even if the 'intonation' differs slightly. Hence, the mention that a pronunciation of 'hanuz' that rhymes remotely with 'dose' or 'rose' or the 'moor/mor' (peacock) in urdu, would be corrected to rhyme with 'loose' or 'taimuur'.



The 'moor/mor' was written as per the transliteration I saw in the previous msgs. and as this statement indicates, it is supposed to rhyme with 'rose' and 'dose'. Nowhere did i indicate that in pakistan 'muur' is the pronunciation for 'moor'.

As for Urdu around Pakistan, I beg to differ on the whole 'mother tongue' issue.  For instance, the mother tongue of none of the Punjabis is supposed to be Urdu. Yet in every middle class house in Punjab, the kids grow up speaking Urdu. They watch tv in Urdu. They communicate in Urdu at school. You can hardly make that comment about 'mother tongue' vs. non mother tongue in this case. 

Plus, the tone of the language is generally the same for everyone who learnt Urdu in school and got some education. They do teach us how to speak it you see. Now if you were to walk up to a fruit vendor in Lahore vs Karachi vs Peshawar vs Chaman, yes you will see differences in pronunciation since they never learnt the 'proper' language. You will, of course, spot marked differences in idioms and vocabulary as well. Furthermore, these people wont be using words like 'hanuz' or 'muur' in general, so I guess I never thought for this discussion they were included.

Furthermore, Urdu (even more so than other languages) has a wonderful quality of assimilating everything and everyone it comes across.  It is not supposed to be some language that originated and then stagnated in Lucknow or Delhi. I am sorry, but all those people you mention 'not speaking Urdu worth the name', are still speaking Urdu, whether you like it or not. And if someone from Pakistan doesn't speak Urdu worth mentioning, they generally will tell you that they cannot speak Urdu. Those who can, know what they are talking about in general .
 If personal judgement meant anything, then anyone who comes out of Deccan and speaks urdu should be disqualified, since they can be extremely hard to understand for a lot of other people. Are they not speaking Urdu worth mentioning?  And if mixing with other languages is an issue, let me remind you that nowhere, not even in Delhi, hyderabad, Lucknow or wherever else, is Urdu the only language of communication. So a person from these places, who might consider Urdu his 'mother tongue', is no less predisposed to making mistakes in Urdu as a language and corrupting it with others than those of us whose mother tongue might not be Urdu on paper are .  

As for hanuz, sure, I have yet to meet one person who pronounced it as 'hanooz'. And since posting the initial msg. on this board, I've spoken to at least 4 pakistanis of different origins to see how they pronounce this as, since I considered myself biased due to my own background. It is pronounced exactly as the link posted above mostly, or at times, as hunuuz. Then, I went ahead and checked the 'Lughat' I have for the word. The only two pronunciations for it are 'hunuuz' and 'hanuuz'. Always an acute wau.

Having two pronunciations of a word that differ by the dialect of Urdu you speak might be acceptable, but saying one is correct vs. the other isn't. 
We all, still, are speaking Urdu. I am sure you are right in pointing out a diff. pronunciation for any word, but if I have heard a different pronunciation and Lughat backs me up, I am sure I am right in pointing out another pronunciation that is considered correct by 160 mil people and their teachers.


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## Faylasoof

I shall be brief about this as I have said more or less what I wished to about the pronunciation of words we are dealing with! I fully understand your sentiments and agree with some points you make but not others. 

All languages have a standard form and whether we like it or not the Dehlavi and Lakhnavi schools of Urdu have longed served us as standards for both grammar and pronunciation. 

To tell you the truth, I'm quite interested to note all the  variations from the standard form that I've come across in the Urdu-speaking Diaspora world wide. Variations always exist! Nevertheless, it is a great pity that well educated persons I've met in Pakistan, and others I see regularly on the media, _speak grammatically incorrect Urdu! _There are set standards for a language and we should recognise them, both for grammar and pronunciation. 
 
Some of these points have been discussed in various threads on this board before so I needn't repeat them.


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## Qureshpor

arsham said:


> That's interesting, given that the Classical pronunciation was also hanooz! (cf. Mid. Pers. ahanooz)



*This is a little surprising for me.

beshtar raftast-o-begaah ast roz   (rhymes with English Rose)
tu ba-jad dar said-i-Khalqaane hanoz

Masnavii (V5 P51 Haamid & Co. Urdu Baazaar, Lahore)
*


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## Sheikh_14

P منوز hanoz, or hanūz, adv. Yet; still; further; just now, at present; hitherto, to this very time;—not yet:

Platt's suggests both Faylasoof and xcess's suggestions are correct. Hunuuz by the way as indicated by xcess is also heard. Though I am not sure if any lughat does also confirms or stand by hunuuz.


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