# Urdu: the cat is out of the bag  بلی بیگ سے باہر ہے۔



## Zareza

Hello,

Could you tell me if this is an original expression in Urdu : بلی بیگ سے باہر ہے۔*  = the cat is out of the bag* and if there is a synonym of this phrase?

Thank you!


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## Alfaaz

Relevant article: بلی کو تھیلے سے باہر آنے دینا


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## Zareza

Thank you!


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## marrish

Alfaaz said:


> Relevant article: بلی کو تھیلے سے باہر آنے دینا


This article begins with the following sentence:


			
				UR.Wikipedia.org said:
			
		

> *بلی کو تھیلے سے باہر آنے دینا* (انگریزی: Letting the cat out of the bag)  یا ایضًا *بلی کو بکسے سے باہر آنے دینا* کہنا ایک عام بول * کا حصہ ہے۔


Which states that these utterances are (a) part of common colloquial speech but I for one am far from confident about the veracity of this assertion. Your views?

* [چال is  missing]


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> This article begins with the following sentence:
> 
> Which states that these utterances are (a) part of common colloquial speech but I for one am far from confident about the veracity of this assertion. Your views? * [چال is  missing]


آپ سے مکمّل اتّفاق ہے۔


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## Alfaaz

marrish said:
			
		

> Which states that these utterances are (a) part of common colloquial speech but I for one am far from confident about the veracity of this assertion. Your views?





			
				Qureshpor said:
			
		

> آپ سے مکمّل اتّفاق ہے۔


 While posting the link above, I was thinking that you (if present/active in the forum) might comment on this!

There are multiple examples of بلی تھیلے سے باہر آگئی online and it can be heard quite commonly in TV programs as well. Based on these observations, it could be said that this is _part of common colloquial speech_. On the other hand, the idiom might not be as common as other Urdu proverbs. 

Are your reservations based on the specific wording, the possibility that it might be based on English and not everyone would be familiar with the idiom, or something else?


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## marrish

Qureshpor said:


> آپ سے مکمّل اتّفاق ہے۔


تھینک یو جی۔. Anyone else?  


Alfaaz said:


> While posting the link above, I was thinking that you (if present/active in the forum) might comment on this!


I had read this article even before this thread was created because I happened to notice that this question is related to a thread on the same topic in "All Languages" section. A contributor posted a translation for Urdu as indicated in the title of this thread. Having consulted the two sources, I was under the impression that those occurrences relate to statements made in English. 

The Wikipedia text you referred is part of the category "انگریزی جملے" = "English sentences" and is basically a translation of the English original.



Alfaaz said:


> There are multiple examples of بلی تھیلے سے باہر آگئی online and it can be heard quite commonly in TV programs as well. Based on these observations, it could be said that this is _part of common colloquial speech_. On the other hand, the idiom might not be as common as other Urdu proverbs.


I have yet to come across it being uttered on TV but due to my lack of exposure to Urdu TV it might take too long. It is part of *English* "common colloquial speech", or an *English* "colloquialism" as in the original English article. 



Alfaaz said:


> Are your reservations based on the specific wording, the possibility that it might be based on English *(it *is* an English saying)  * and not everyone would be familiar with the idiom*(only English speakers, familiar with the phrase, probably),* or something else? *(this is a model example of a word-for-word translation of an idiom – nothing good in my opinion)*.


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## Zareza

In conclusion, I understand this is not an original expression in Urdu. 

Just *a word-for-word translation of an idiom* from another language.

Thank you!


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## marrish

Well, I think we have to wait some time to reach a conclusion yet, because it has been used, 


Alfaaz said:


> There are multiple examples of بلی تھیلے سے باہر آگئی online and it can be heard quite commonly in TV programs as well. Based on these observations, it could be said that this is _part of common colloquial speech_. On the other hand, the idiom might not be as common as other Urdu proverbs.


 and the court is not over yet as to the originality (so far only I have taken a stance on this point.)


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## Alfaaz

Thanks for the comprehensive reply!


			
				marrish said:
			
		

> *(it *is* an English saying)* ... *(only English speakers, familiar with the phrase, probably)* ... *(this is a model example of a word-for-word translation of an idiom – nothing good in my opinion)*


As mentioned previously, this idiom is often used in TV programs, news, etc. Could کثرت استعمال not qualify it as an Urdu idiom as well now, as are some of examples mentioned below...?

There are other idioms, phrases, and references that are similar in multiple languages. What would your views be regarding them?

_Kill two birds with one stone._ - ایک تیر سے دو شکار | ایک پنتھ دو کاج
_show one's true colors_ - اصل رنگ دکھانا
_to shed light on_ - پر روشنی ڈالنا
_et tu -_ تم بھی
_etc. _



			
				marrish said:
			
		

> The Wikipedia text you referred is part of the category "انگریزی جملے" = "English sentences" and is basically a translation of the English original.


The same category contains idioms such as نوشتۂ دیوار and کھل جا سمسم. What would your views be about these?


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## marrish

Alfaaz said:


> As mentioned previously, this idiom is often used in TV programs, news, etc. Could کثرت استعمال not qualify it as an Urdu idiom as well now, as are some of examples mentioned below...?


Of course it could be classified as an Urdu calque from English (it's counter-intuitive to think the other way around), but the question was if it were an original Urdu expression.


Alfaaz said:


> The same category contains idioms such as نوشتۂ دیوار and کھل جا سمسم. What would your views be about these?


Both are actually shared by many languages due to their sources: one is based on a Biblical motive and the other one on Tales of the thousand and one nights. However, you are right that those Wikipedia entries are confusing, so let's not be bothered about it.

Question: Is there a difference between "The cat is out of the bag" and "The cat is outside the bag", barring that the second version is not idiomatic? All in all, doesn't _billii_ bag _se baahar hae_ mean The cat is outside the bag?


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## iskander e azam

marrish said:


> Question: Is there a difference between "The cat is out of the bag" and "The cat is outside the bag", barring that the second version is not idiomatic? All in all, doesn't _billii_ bag _se baahar hae_ mean The cat is outside the bag?



marrish SaaHib,

As a native speaker of English I would take "The cat is out of the bag" to mean that a secret has been revealed or some hidden truth has come to light whilst "The cat is outside the bag" means that the cat is not in the bag.

Best wishes,

Alex


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## marrish

Thank you. Could you put the idiomatic meaning aside and tell what the first sentence implies (let's say, "the dog is out of the bag" v. "the dog is outside the bag")?


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> Thank you. Could you put the idiomatic meaning aside and tell what the first sentence implies (let's say, "the dog is out of the bag" v. "the dog is outside the bag")?


Why has the dog taken the cat's place? Equal opportunity? 

dhotaa huuN jab maiN piine ko us siim-tan ke paaNv
rakhtaa hai zid se kheNch ke baahar lagan ke paaNv
Ghalib

paaNv lagan ke baahar

kuttaa thaile ke baahar hai = The dog is outside the bag (and I think also ...The dog is out of the bag.)
kuttaa thaile ke andar hai   = The dog is inside the bag.
kuttaa thaile meN hai         = The dog is in the bag.

kuttaa thaile se baahar hai = The dog is out of the bag = kuttaa thaile meN se baahar hai


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## iskander e azam

marrish said:


> Thank you. Could you put the idiomatic meaning aside and tell what the first sentence implies (let's say, "the dog is out of the bag" v. "the dog is outside the bag")?



marrish SaaHib,

For me,  "the dog is out of the bag" implies the dog is no longer in the bag whilst "the dog is outside the bag" the dog is not inside the bag (but possibly should have been). Para-language helps to establish meaning here as well as context. We are now well within the realm of linguistics.

Best wishes,

Alex


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## marrish

Thank you both, your answers suggest the translation itself is wrong, because it reads 'The cat is out(side) of the bag'. The element of it having been let out of the bag i.e. being out of the bag is not reflected in  *"بلی بیگ سے باہر ہے*, in contrary to the one quoted by Alfaaz SaaHib (_billii thaile se baahar aa ga'ii_) which reads literally "The cat has come out of the sack/bag".


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## Alfaaz

marrish said:
			
		

> Question: Is there a difference between "The cat is out of the bag" and "The cat is outside the bag", barring that the second version is not idiomatic? All in all, doesn't _billii_ bag _se baahar hae_ mean The cat is outside the bag?


 Please excuse the delay in replying. iskander e azam and Qureshpor SaaHibaan have already answered in great detail and I would agree with their analyses.


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## marrish

Alfaaz said:


> Please excuse the delay in replying. iskander e azam and Qureshpor SaaHibaan have already answered in great detail and I would agree with their analyses.


In this light, do you agree with my analyse of the translation in the preceding post of mine?


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## Alfaaz

marrish said:
			
		

> In this light, do you agree with my analyse of the translation in the preceding post of mine?


 Yes, I just read your post and do agree with your analysis as well!


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## marrish

Thanks!


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