# fuck you / fuck off



## whitestar

Topic phrases: fuck you / fuck off
Added by Cagey, moderator 

Sorry for this stupid question but what's the difference between these 2 expressions?


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## DAH

_____ you is a direct insult to someone.
______off is telling someone to get lost, take a hike, don't bother me, etc.


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## rsweet

While both of these can be used to rudely dismiss someone, the latter is used more for this purpose. A f**k off can also be a lazy person who doesn't contribute anything or who does things badly.


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## Macymoo

F**ck off is also used as you are joking.....people sometimes say f**ck off I'm not doing that!! it's like you are joking no way am I doing that.
a strong version of no way!!!

F**k you is a direct rude insult reserved when you really want to end a friendship....most people will accept f**k off said to them in a jokey way....no-one would accept f**K you being said to them.



Also you can say I have f**cked him off....meaning I have really really annoyed him
also you can say just f**k him off meaning just get rid of him
can you f**k it off (if talking about an arrangement) meaning can you get out of it


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## T0B1AS

f*ck you...is like saying "whatever with you"

f*uck off...is a degradin way of telling someone to get lost,beat,get outta here


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## panjandrum

It's perhaps worth being clear about this.
People say either of these once, and only once.
They don't get another chance unless there is a grovelling apology.


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## JamesM

Well, actually....

I've heard screaming fights where a fairly lengthy portion of the "conversation" was simply "f**k you" volleyed back and forth.   I think the heat of an argument drops all consideration for the number of times it's said.  At that point, I think its only communication is, "I hate you!"

On the other hand, saying it even once in a calm, pleasant, polite conversation will probably kill that conversation (and possibly any future conversations with that person.)


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## padredeocho

F--- off is used primarly when you want to tell a person that you are not interested in his or her company, or what he or she has to say.  Very offensive of course. 

F--- you is used when you want a confrontation typically.  It is said when you are "calling a person out".   You are begging for a confrontation is verbally or physically.


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## padredeocho

There is another phrase which is F--- that, or f----him.  

Example:
What!  Your boss told you that you don't deserve a raise?  Well *f--- that*! (or *him*).  Come and work for me.  We will pay you what you are worth.  

*It is a way of saying that something is totally stupid and insulting.*


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## foxfirebrand

I don't use many fuck-word expressions chronically, but one I like is "fuck _that_ noise!"  Meaning no way I'm putting up with it, whatever it is.

I guess I do say "that's what you get for fucking with [whatever]."

Use it too much, and _fuck_ loses its value as a simple action verb, and of course a noun.  I'm not for cutesy silly-ass euphemisms people use instead of _fucking._ Even that Shakespearean one we were talking about not long ago, in another thread.
.


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## padredeocho

I once called a guy in L.A. to inquire about a CD player he was selling.  He said, "Don't worry, nobody's  been f---ing with it."

In other words, he was trying to tell me that nobody had done anything to damage it in any way at all.


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## susanb

It's interesting to Know the meaning of swear words but I don't think it's a good idea to make use of them if the language you are speaking isn't your mother tongue language. Even if you know the exact meaning, your intonation may be wrong and sound awful no matter if you were joking or not. What do you think?


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## sharkey

I think susanb makes a good point, using swear words in a foreign language could come across wrong, it's probably better not to use them, particularily f**k ,as this is quite a strong swear word.


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## DavyBCN

susanb said:


> It's interesting to Know the meaning of swear words but I don't think it's a good idea to make use of them if the language you are speaking isn't your mother tongue language. Even if you know the exact meaning, your intonation may be wrong and sound awful no matter if you were joking or not. What do you think?


 
I think that the appropriateness of their use in different company and situations is a key factor. I thought English speakers used the most swearwords and with the least inhibitions - until I moved to Barcelona! No criticism Susan, but you Catalans! My adult and professional students use one word constantly which I would never have dreamt of using in front of my parents - or even my best friends. .

In my first class here a young male student arrived with a cup of coffee and announced to everyone that "this coffee tastes f****ing shit". The three very prim and proper female students said "Really?" Cue a change of lesson plan to appropriate language.


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## Alxmrphi

susanb said:


> It's interesting to Know the meaning of swear words but I don't think it's a good idea to make use of them if the language you are speaking isn't your mother tongue language. Even if you know the exact meaning, your intonation may be wrong and sound awful no matter if you were joking or not. What do you think?



Quite sensible. It's better than looking like a fool.


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## padredeocho

Foreigners are expected to use POLITE speech in almost all circumstances.  What a local CAN say, a visitor CANNOT say.  Those are the rules throughout the world.


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## Alxmrphi

padredeocho said:


> Foreigners are expected to use POLITE speech in almost all circumstances. What a local CAN say, a visitor CANNOT say. Those are the rules throughout the world.



I don't know what old fashioned rules you live by, I understand where you are coming from, but it's not based on your rules, if would be polite to someone in your own place then you would aswel, but informally, if you know what you mean and how it will be perceived, I don't think there is a difference or a worldwide taboo that people follow.


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## Paulfromitaly

padredeocho said:


> Foreigners are expected to use POLITE speech in almost all circumstances.  What a local CAN say, a visitor CANNOT say.  Those are the rules throughout the world.



I kindly disagree..
If foreigners are perferctly aware of the meaning and the use of a swear word and they intentionally don't want to be polite, tell somebody to f**k off might be much more meaningful than slurring some words in a bad English..
I'm not encouraging foreigners to swear, of course,but I can't understand why they shouldn't do it just because they come from another country.


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## maxiogee

padredeocho said:


> Foreigners are expected to use POLITE speech in almost all circumstances.  What a local CAN say, a visitor CANNOT say.  Those are the rules throughout the world.



Not so. 
Foreigners are expected to make use of inappropriate expressions at the 'wrong' time, or in the 'wrong' place. It is the locals, especially in the presence of language-deficient foreigners, who are expected to use polite speech. In the presence of a foreigner it is inappropriate to use slang and vernacular idioms which they are highly unlikely to understand. 
You need to adopt an attitude of "fáilte", or "welcome" as we say in Ireland.


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## Paulfromitaly

maxiogee said:


> Not so.
> Foreigners are expected to make use of inappropriate expressions at the 'wrong' time, or in the 'wrong' place. It is the locals, especially in the presence of language-deficient foreigners, who are expected to use polite speech. In the presence of a foreigner it is inappropriate to use slang and vernacular idioms which they are highly unlikely to understand.



As a foreigner hanging around in  UK, I do agree with you.


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## susanb

Paulfromitaly said:


> I kindly disagree..
> If foreigners are perferctly aware of the meaning and the use of a swear word and they intentionally don't want to be polite, tell somebody to f**k off might be much more meaningful than slurring some words in a bad English..
> I'm not encouraging foreigners to swear, of course,but I can't understand why they shouldn't do it just because they come from another country.



I understand your point and I agree, but the thing is that it's not a matter of literally translating a word into the other language but the meaning of the word itself. ie. The word s**t in English is much stronger than in Castilian. If I used this English word in the same context or situation as I would use it in Castilian you would think I was being Very rude. So, in my opinion, foreigners have to know not only the meaning but the connotations. I hope I made myself clear.


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## Paulfromitaly

susanb said:


> I understand your point and I agree, but the thing is that it's not a matter of literally translating a word into the other language but the meaning of the word itself. ie. The word s**t in English is much stronger than in Castilian. If I used this English word in the same context or situation as I would use it in Castilian you would think I was being Very rude. So, in my opinion, foreigners have to know not only the meaning but the connotations. I hope I made myself clear.



We are carrying on the same idea: when I wrote "aware of the meaning and the use" I meant exaclty what you're saying now.


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## susanb

Paulfromitaly said:


> We are carrying on the same idea: when I wrote "aware of the meaning and the use" I meant exaclty what you're saying now.



I completely agree with you then


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## Porteño

I disagree that '*** you' would necessarily be the end of a beautiful friendship or even would require any apology. I have often used it in a completely friendly and inoffensive manner in a phrase like:
'*** you, mate!' I'm not going to do that! No way!', or
'*** you!, Why don't you just sod off and come back when you're in a better mood!'
Incidentally, it's very indicative of cultural change over the years that we are even discussing the word and that nowadays it even appears in respectable dictionaries. I was beaten at school for merely writng the word on a piece of paper which unfortaunately fell into the hands of one of my teachers! In those days you could be arrested for obscene language if you used it in public. "_Times they are a changin_'"


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## sound shift

There are plenty of situations in which a person could use either expression.

Google Ngram shows that the two are neck-and-neck in BrE, while in AmE "fuck you" is well ahead.


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## Rover_KE

< Response to deleted post removed. Cagey, moderator >



sharkey said:


> ... using swear words in a foreign language could come across wrong, it's probably better not to use them, particularily f**k ,as this is quite a strong swear word.


It's more than that: it's one of the foulest words in English.

ESL students and other learners should be aware that whilst 'f*ck' and its derivatives are commonly used by a large percentage of the population in their daily conversation, it is one of the worst obscenities  in the language, and should only be used in the company of people you are sure will not be offended by it.


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## Englishmypassion

Rover_KE said:


> it is one of the worst obscenities  in the language,



And hence highly unlikely to appear on an ESL test or any formal exams.


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## DonnyB

I have often heard (and sometimes used ) both expressions, and the distinction between them has been admirably explained in a number of different posts here.

I'd just like to add that I endorse Susan's comments (post #12).  While "fuck" and variants of it have over the years lost much of their capacity to shock - where I live, I'm used for example to nine-year olds screaming it at each other on street corners - it's a _bad idea_ for non-natives to use it until they've developed a good sense of how and when to do so.  It's _very_ easy to cause unintentional offence by using it wrongly.


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## Rover_KE

Rover_KE said:


> it is one of the worst obscenities  in the language ....





Englishmypassion said:


> And hence highly unlikely to appear on an ESL test or any formal exams.


I didn't say it was, but the forum doesn't just cater for ESL examinees.


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## Englishmypassion

Rover_KE said:


> I didn't say it was, but the forum doesn't just cater for ESL examinees.



That was my opinion, and I talked about ESL exams because you referred to _ESL students and other learners_. I didn't mean WR caters to ESL examinees only.


I believe an ESL exam or any formal exam is unlikely to use that word, and I just pointed that out.


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## VicNicSor

[This question has been added to a previous thread discussing various aspects of the way this particular expression is used.  Please read down from the top.  DonnyB - moderator].

A detective's questioning a dance instructor, and says a phrase imlying she's a whore.
She: Fuck you.
He: No thank you, I have a headache and good taste.
Red Heat, film

Apparently, the joke is she meant "(I'd like to) fuck you."
But really, apart from the usual meaning this expression has, what does it literally mean? What does it come from? Is it an imperative, or indeed means how the cop took it?
Thanks.


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## london calling

She didn't mean that. He pretended to understand it was an invitation to.......fuck her.


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## VicNicSor

She didn't, that's why I said "*the joke is* she meant ..."
But still, to the question I asked...


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## london calling

VicNicSor said:


> She didn't, that's why I said "*the joke is* she meant ..."
> But still, to the question I asked...


Read the rest of the thread.


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## VicNicSor

I mean, it discusses the meaning of the expression, while I'm interested in _the origin_.


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## london calling

VicNicSor said:


> I mean, it discusses the meaning of the expression, while I'm interested in _the origin_.


Etymonline.


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## Loob

london calling said:


> Read the rest of the thread.


I don't think Vic's question is answered in the rest of the thread - or if it is, I've missed it.

Edit. Off to read the link in post 38.


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## velisarius

I don't know, but I'd assume that, by analogy with "damn you" (may you be damned i.e. spend an eternity in Hell), it was originally a wish that the other person should be fucked (against their will). Come to think of it, that puts the two phrases in a different perspective.


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## london calling

velisarius said:


> I don't know, but I'd assume that, by analogy with "damn you" (may you be damned i.e. spend an eternity in Hell), it was originally a wish that the other person should be fucked (against their will). Come to think of it, that puts the two phrases in a different perspective.


Yes. I misunderstood Vic's question, sorry.


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## Hermione Golightly

#34





> She didn't mean that. He pretended to understand it was an invitation to.......fuck her.



There is no 'joke', only sick or black humour.


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## Uncle Jack

There is an interesting little piece here: http://aflang.linguistics.ucla.edu/people/schuh/Lx19/Documents/QPhD_English_wo_subject.pdf
which argues strongly and convincingly that "fuck" in "fuck you" is not an imperative, but then goes on to assert, rather less convincingly, that it isn't a verb at all in this expression. Personally, I think the reasoning is flawed, highlighted by the author noting similarities between "fuck you" and "damn you". Now, I think "damn you" is a subjunctive with the subject (God) omitted, and it seems highly likely to me that "fuck you" has just taken the structure of "damn you" and replaced the now rather mild and inoffensive "damn" with the more powerful "fuck".

I have absolutely no evidence for this assertion, and may well be wrong about "damn you" being a subjunctive, but perhaps having sown a seed a more knowledgeable person might comment whether or not this is a plausible idea.

Edit: I have just noticed velisarius has posted something similar (#40)


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## Loob

The link in post 38 didn't help, so I had a look at the OED, which, in the entry for _fuck, _ lists "Fuck you" under:
_Imprecatory and exclamatory phrases (typically in imperative or optative with no subject expressed...)_

Of the two, it's clearly  optative rather than imperative; if it was imperative, it would need "yourself" rather than "you".



_Edit. I'm agreeing with veli too._


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## kentix

Uncle Jack said:


> it seems highly likely to me that "fuck you" has just taken the structure of "damn you" and replaced the now rather mild and inoffensive "damn" with the more powerful "fuck".


That's what I think, too. It's not meant to make sense. It's meant to be a very strong insult, where grammar is the least of the issues involved. That "fuck" has no direct connection with sex.


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## VicNicSor

Thank you all


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## Hermione Golightly

> Now, I think "damn you" is a subjunctive with the subject (God) omitted, and it seems highly likely to me that "fuck you" has just taken the structure of "damn you" and replaced the now rather mild and inoffensive "damn" with the more powerful "fuck".



Or, "Long live our Gracious Queen!". Or, "Be well!" as subjunctive forms.
I'd describe "Fuck off!" as a command, with 'fuck' having no sexual overtones, no more than 'Buzz off!' or 'Buggar off!'.


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## PaulQ

Uncle Jack said:


> Now, I think "damn you" is a subjunctive with the subject (God) omitted, and it seems highly likely to me that "fuck you" has just taken the structure of "damn you" and replaced the now rather mild and inoffensive "damn" with the more powerful "fuck".


That seems eminently reasonable.


Hermione Golightly said:


> I'd describe "Fuck off!" as a command,


I agree but if you add an object then the subjunctive becomes more apparent. 





> ...with 'fuck' having no sexual overtones, no more than 'Buzz off!' or 'Buggar off!'.


I can't object to that and it support's Uncle Jack's theory.


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## Englishmypassion

A guy's girlfriend didn't particularly like his teasing her and said _Fuck you_. The guy replied, "Yeah, hard please, baby." (Real life)
Probably the _girl_ didn't like that either, but they continued their lovey-dovey conversation.


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## Jahan

Hi,
_Fuck you:_ it means that you do not like, respect or care about someone.
_Fuck off:_ it used especially as a rude way of telling someone to go away.


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