# pronunciation of L



## българин

I have a question about the pronunciation of the Dutch letter "L"
Is it pronounced in the back of the mouth as in the Spanish "L" or is it in the front of the mouth like the English "L"??


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## Outsider

The pronunciation of the English L varies with dialect. What you probably want to know is whether the Dutch L is velarized.


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## Frank06

Hi,

The /l/ in Dutch is normally described as a "voiced prepalatal lateral", an expensive way of saying that the tip of the tongue presses (lightly) against the front half of the palate and that the air 'escapes' sideways.

English does at least have two l-sounds, (roughly) depending upon the following vowel (or consonant): the /l/ in 'light' is more at the front than the /l/ in 'law'. Dutch /l/ can be more or less compared with the former (certainly not with the latter).


Groetjes,

Frank


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## HKK

Frank06 said:


> Hi,
> 
> The /l/ in Dutch is normally described as a "voiced prepalatal lateral", an expensive way of saying that the tip of the tongue presses (lightly) against the front half of the palate and that the air 'escapes' sideways.
> 
> English does at least have two l-sounds, (roughly) depending upon the following vowel (or consonant): the /l/ in 'light' is more at the front than the /l/ in 'law'. Dutch /l/ can be more or less compared with the former (certainly not with the latter).
> 
> 
> Groetjes,
> 
> Frank



I would say both are used, just like in English. For example, if you say "Engels" with a prepalatal/front L, people will say you have a French accent.

I'd say dark L occurs after the vowel of the syllable: bol-ster, engel, bal-da-kijn, ... But front L in the other case: la-den, be-la-den, ver-lei-den. In the special case of bollen, vallen, I guess both are used.


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## Frank06

Hi,


HKK said:


> I would say both are used, just like in English. For example, if you say "Engels" with a prepalatal/front L, people will say you have a French accent.
> I'd say dark L occurs after the vowel of the syllable: bol-ster, engel, bal-da-kijn, ... But front L in the other case: la-den, be-la-den, ver-lei-den. In the special case of bollen, vallen, I guess both are used.


I was referring to the pronunciation of Standard Dutch. Both _Uitspraak Nederlands _by Beheydt e.a. and _Klink klaar. Uitspraak- en intonatiegids voor het Nederlands_ by Timmermans _explicitely_ warn against the usage of a dark(er) l in the pronunication of Standard Dutch.
The former talks about English 'light l' and 'dark l' and mentions that Dutch only has a (kind of) 'light l', the latter gives the 'bad' example of 'melk'; a dark /l/ gives rise to the [edit] _non- standard_ /mel-&k/ [&=shwa].
But yes, in substandard and in various dialects, a darker /l/ is used in the situations you describe.

Groetjes,

Frank


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## HKK

Well, I'm not talking about the English "dark l" that eliminates any contact between the tongue and the palate. But I'm convinced that even the most standardized Dutch has a deep*er* postvocalic L.

Try to say "pollepel" with the same L sounds as "liter", with the tongue almost touching  the front teeth. Don't you agree it sounds odd to say the least?


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## Frank06

Hi,


HKK said:


> Well, I'm not talking about the English "dark l" that eliminates any contact between the tongue and the palate.


The pronunciation of English dark l surely requires contact of the tongue with the hard palate, but less than in the case of a 'light l'. With an English dark l, the tongue touches the hard palate and the back of the tongue goes up, in the direction of the soft palate. At least, if I may believe the explanations and drawings in my pronunication guide (for British English) and this visual representation (American English).
But I suggest we'll continue this particular discussion in the 'English Only' department of the WR board.



> But I'm convinced that even the most standardized Dutch has a deep*er* postvocalic L.Try to say "pollepel" with the same L sounds as "liter", with the tongue almost touching the front teeth. Don't you agree it sounds odd to say the least?


What you _describe_ is pretty accurate indeed. One can hear it quite often, also by people who are supposed to speak Standard Dutch.
What I provided were some guidelines by _prescriptive_ authors, mainly because the question was raised by a non-native. Up to българин to decide what (s?)he's going to do.
But yes, Standard Dutch as prescribed in most pronunciation guides _does_ sound quite odd to me, from time to time. Actually, to be honest, everything that deviates from my 'Antwààrps' sounds weird ;-) ;-).

Groetjes,
Frank


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## HKK

Wel, dan zijn we het eens  Trouwens, een bron die ik vond over de "donkere l" in het Nederlands vermeldde dat die (wat betreft Vlaanderen) het populairst is in Brabant.


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