# Mr vs Mr.



## nnyy

I found a sentence "the presiding judge was Mr justice Willamson" in Oxford dictionary.

I wonder Mr. can be used without comma.
Can it?

Thank you for your help.


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## heypresto

I think you might mean 'full stop' or 'period' rather than 'comma'?

Yes, in BE the full stop is often (usually?) omitted - I never use it myself - but I _believe_ in AE it is always used.


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## Englishmypassion

Yes, the full stop/period is normally omitted in words like "Mr" and "Mrs" in BE but used in AE. 
But even British people don't seem to follow the rule strictly.


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## nnyy

heypresto said:


> I think you might mean 'full stop' or 'period' rather than 'comma'?
> 
> Yes, in BE the full stop is often (usually?) omitted - I never use it myself - but I _believe_ in AE it is always used.


Thanks for your promp reply.
One more question!
Does the rule apply to Mrs. as well?
Thank you in advance.


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## heypresto

Yes - Mr, Mrs, Ms and the recently adopted Mx.


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## Englishmypassion

But it's not that black and white. You might want to have a look at this thread:

Point after Mr/ Mrs/ Miss/ Ms


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## ewie

heypresto said:


> [...] the recently adopted Mx.


So recent that news of it has yet to reach me, HP

I'm pretty sure I used to (back in the 1970s) write _Mr._ and _Mrs._ but it was one of those bits of punctuation that fell out of favour.


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## Englishmypassion

ewie said:


> So recent that news of it has yet to reach me, HP



I thought I was the only one left.


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## heypresto

From today's Mail Online (with apologies ): A  new gender neutral title 'Mx' is to join the honorifics 'Mr, Mrs, Miss and Ms' on driving licences and other official documents, the first change to officially recognised titles in decades. Royal Mail, high street banks, government departments and some universities all now accept Mx which is used by transgender people or other individuals who do not identify with a particular gender. The title has been added, without fanfare, to official forms and databases and is under consideration by the Oxford English Dictionary for inclusion in its next edition.


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## Rover_KE

How is it pronounced?


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## heypresto

Rover_KE said:


> How is it pronounced?



According to Wiki: "Mx, usually pronounced /ˈmɪks/ or /ˈmʌks/ (miks or muks, similar to Ms) . . . "


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## natkretep

Traditionally in BrE, a full stop is used if we are dealing with an abbreviation rather than a contraction. And we know it is a contraction if the last letter of the full-form word is present at the end. Therefore, Mr, Mrs, Dr, St (street/saint), Revd without full stops, but Rev., ed. (editor), Prof. with stops. Of course, before 1970 or so all of them had stops. After 2000 though I think it is common to see Rev and Prof without stops too.

Mx is strictly BrE. Here's Wikipedia:


> It is a gender-neutral title that is now widely accepted by the British government and many businesses in the United Kingdom.


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## emma.learns

<Thread merged with an older one. Nat>
Is that the case "Mr. (with a dot)" is used in American English and "Mr (with no dot)" is used in British English?

Thank you!


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## e2efour

See Mr vs Mr.. <This thread, after the merge.>


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## emma.learns

Thank you!


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## rino delbello

[This question has been added to a previous thread in which the same question was asked.  DonnyB - moderator]

Hi All

I have seen on the web that there are two forms used for people, namely Mr and Mr.

Do you agree with this or is it only used a form? Does the same apply to Ms?


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## entangledbank

Ms does not stand for anything - it is not an abbreviation, so is unlikely _less likely_ to have a full stop. 'Mr' or 'Mr.' follows the usual practice for abbreviations: a full stop (period) in AmE, but not in BrE. In BrE the older convention is not to use a stop when the abbreviation includes the last letter, as here; more recently, stops are omitted generally.

_edited_, agreeing that the analogy with Mr. is probably common


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## natkretep

Agreed, though I've seen people using a full stop with Ms by analogy to Mr though, so you might occasionally encounter it.

The full stop for Mr was certainly used in BrE as well up to the 1960s, I think, and some older people will use it with Mr, Mrs, Dr and so on particularly in handwritten material.


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## rino delbello

OK, thanks a lot.

In business context for example, if I am in a company talking to an office worker, is it better to use Ms. Wllis or Miss Willis? (I am not sure whether she is married or not)


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## User With No Name

natkretep said:


> Agreed, though I've seen people using a full stop with Ms by analogy to Mr though, so you might occasionally encounter it.


In the U.S., _Mr._ and _Mrs._ are always written with periods. _Ms._ is also normally written with a period, even if it's not especially logical. _Miss_ is not written with a period, but I don't see _Miss_ used very often these days.


rino delbello said:


> In business context for example, if I am in a company talking to an office worker, is it better to use Ms. Wllis or Miss Willis? (I am not sure whether she is married or not)


Yes, if you don't know whether she is married, _Ms. Willis_ is the best option. (Although in the U.S. business environment, the vast majority of coworkers would address each other by their first names.)


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## rino delbello

OK, thanks a lot User with No name, entangledbank I don't understand your editing, so in writing is Mr used in The U.K. with full stop or not ?


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## Chez

The answer is that Mr without the full stop is correct according to BrE punctuation, but many people will use a full stop because they don't know the rules.


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## natkretep

The full stop is now generally left out in the UK except to mark the end of a sentence. So, write 'the UK', not 'the U.K.' for instance.

The rule used to be that full stops should not be used for contractions (when the last letter appears), so write Mr (Mister), Dr (Doctor), Revd (Reverend), Rd (Road), Jnr (Junior) but Rev. (Reverend) or p. (page) or Ch. (chapter). These days we are likely to leave out all the full stops. (This was what entangledbank talked about - I'm just giving some examples.)

If you are writing to someone in the UK or the Commonwealth, write 'Ms Willis'.


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## rino delbello

OK; thanks a lot Chez and natkretep, thanks again all of you


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## Rover_KE

Chez said:


> The answer is that Mr without the full stop is correct according to BrE punctuation, but many people will use a full stop because they don't know the rules.



Actually, there are no rules—they just haven't noticed that omitting full stops (and commas in addresses, etc) has gradually become the accepted practice in written English.

My 75-year-old sister-in-law always addresses my Christmas card with the punctuation she had drummed into her all through her schooldays:

Mr*.* U*.* Anchor*,**
22*,* Letsbee Ave*.,*
Oswaldtwistle*,*
Nr*.* Blackburn*,*
Lancs*.*

(She doesn't even know my postcode, but it gets here just the same.)

*** Not my real name or address. Please don't think you can start sending me junk mail or begging letters.


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## heypresto

Rover_KE said:


> Mr*.* U*.* Anchor*,*


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## Roxxxannne

heypresto said:


>


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## ewie

Rover_KE said:


> Mr*.* U*.* Anchor*,**
> 22*,* Letsbee Ave*.,*



My mother (84) does exactly the same.


Rover_KE said:


> *** Not my real name


I should ruddy hope not.

I'm fairly sure that I write _Ms*.*_ ... possibly because I tend to read _Ms_ as 'manuscript' a fair bit ... 

Four years on and I've still yet to see _Mx_ in the wild.


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## natkretep

ewie said:


> I'm fairly sure that I write _Ms*.*_ ... possibly because I tend to read _Ms_ as 'manuscript' a fair bit ...


Manuscript is usually MS (and manuscripts MSS) in my experience though.

(Shh. I still do the end-of-line commas for addresses, and I still do a diagonal indent on envelopes - each subsequent line starting further away from the margin.)


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## ewie

natkretep said:


> Manuscript is usually MS (and manuscripts MSS) in my experience though.


 but my brain's got into the habit of computing _ms, Ms_ and _MS_ as 'manuscript'.


natkretep said:


> (Shh. I still do the end-of-line commas for addresses, and I still do a diagonal indent on envelopes - each subsequent line starting further away from the margin.)


(Don't fret, Nat ~ no-one's reading this  )


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## london calling

I'm allergic to the ghastly Ms and have yet to see Mx (mix? It sounds like an insult 🤣). 

As for Mr. /Mr,  I have no problem with either: as a young girl the full stop was required and then all of a sudden it disappeared... My aging parents still use the full stop. I wouldn't worry about it too much.


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## rino delbello

OK, thanks london calling and ewie


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## sinukg

Rover_KE said:


> Actually, there are no rules—they just haven't noticed that omitting full stops (and commas in addresses, etc) has gradually become the accepted practice in written English.
> 
> My 75-year-old sister-in-law always addresses my Christmas card with the punctuation she had drummed into her all through her schooldays:
> 
> Mr*.* U*.* Anchor*,**
> 22*,* Letsbee Ave*.,*
> Oswaldtwistle*,*
> Nr*.* Blackburn*,*
> Lancs*.*
> 
> (She doesn't even know my postcode, but it gets here just the same.)
> 
> *** Not my real name or address. Please don't think you can start sending me junk mail or begging letters.


I'd like to ask you one question here. Please see the following. In our office while writing addresses we are following the same punctuation pattern. Is this method "odd"? Do we have to avoid those "commas" after the end of each line? Please advise me on this. 

Mr*.* U*.* Anchor*,*
22*,* Letsbee ave.,
Oswaldtwistle*,*
Nr*.* Blackburn*,*
Lancs*.*


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## natkretep

This is just old style punctuation. It's not wrong. For some, it just looks dated.


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## heypresto

sinukg said:


> Mr*.* U*.* Anchor*,*
> 22*,* Letsbee ave.,


 



natkretep said:


> This is just old style punctuation. It's not wrong. For some, it just looks dated.


Yes, all those commas and full stops should, in my opinion, be expunged with immediate effect.


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## JulianStuart

heypresto said:


> Yes, all those commas and full stops should, in my opinion, be expunged with immediate effect.


This change (deciding to do away with such full stops and commas) occurred after I left the UK in the late 70s.  Is there an explanation of how/why the "collective consciousness" moved in that direction. I see a couple of references to "rules" above but assume these, as usual, are retroactively devised 

PS, was it the same movement in the UK that did away with "unnecessary" captial letters (Aids vs AIDS and Nasa vs NASA etc - I still stumble in British texts when realizing a word is an abbreviation/initialism.


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## london calling

sinukg said:


> I'd like to ask you one question here. Please see the following. In our office while writing addresses we are following the same punctuation pattern. Is this method "odd"? Do we have to avoid those "commas" after the end of each line? Please advise me on this.
> 
> Mr*.* U*.* Anchor*,*
> 22*,* Letsbee ave.,
> Oswaldtwistle*,*
> Nr*.* Blackburn*,*
> Lancs*.*


It's fine, just very old-fashioned, as the others have said. 

PS. Letsbee Avenue is the address of the local police station, right Rover_KE? 👮‍♀️🤣


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## sinukg

natkretep said:


> Traditionally in BrE, a full stop is used if we are dealing with an abbreviation rather than a contraction. And we know it is a contraction if the last letter of the full-form word is present at the end. Therefore, Mr, Mrs, Dr, St (street/saint), Revd without full stops, but Rev., ed. (editor), Prof. with stops. Of course, before 1970 or so all of them had stops. After 2000 though I think it is common to see Rev and Prof without stops too.
> 
> Mx is strictly BrE. Here's Wikipedia:





london calling said:


> It's fine, just very old-fashioned, as the others have said.
> 
> PS. Letsbee Avenue is the address of the local police station, right Rover_KE? 👮‍♀️🤣


Could you please tell me how to rewrite them in the latest model?


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## Uncle Jack

sinukg said:


> I'd like to ask you one question here. Please see the following. In our office while writing addresses we are following the same punctuation pattern. Is this method "odd"? Do we have to avoid those "commas" after the end of each line? Please advise me on this.
> 
> Mr*.* U*.* Anchor*,*
> 22*,* Letsbee ave.,
> Oswaldtwistle*,*
> Nr*.* Blackburn*,*
> Lancs*.*


I think including a comma between a house number and the street name went out of fashion over 100 years ago.
"Ave" has to be capitalised, regardless of how it is punctuated.
"Nr" hasn't been used in postal addresses in Britain for at least 30 years. Oswaldtwistle now has Accrington as the post town.
Postcodes are obligatory.

Incidentally, are you sure the person's initial wasn't "W"?  
[Edit: Ah, no, I get the joke now. ]


sinukg said:


> Could you please tell me how to rewrite them in the latest model?


Mr U Anchor
22 Letsbee Avenue
Oswaldtwistle
Accrington
BB5 3DA

Counties ("Lancs" or "Lancashire" in your example) are no longer required in postal addresses in Britain, but lots of people include them anyway. Sometimes they even get them right.
Commas at the end of each line (apart from the last two) are fine (in my opinion, at any rate).
Streets and similar can be abbreviated ("Ave" in your case), and full stops are sometimes used.

Further edit: Given the person's name, it's a bit of a shame to have "Mr" there at all. Since it isn't needed, I suggest the first line should be "U Anchor".


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## Loob

JulianStuart said:


> This change (deciding to do away with such full stops and commas) occurred after I left the UK in the late 70s. Is there an explanation of how/why the "collective consciousness" moved in that direction.


I always assumed it had something to do with the fact that we all started word-processing, including those of us who - like me - were totally inadequate typists.  But the same forces should have applied in AmE


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## Wordy McWordface

Uncle Jack said:


> Incidentally, are you sure the person's initial wasn't "W"?


I think 'U Anchor' is the vocative case.


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## sinukg

Uncle Jack said:


> I think including a comma between a house number and the street name went out of fashion over 100 years ago.
> "Ave" has to be capitalised, regardless of how it is punctuated.
> "Nr" hasn't been used in postal addresses in Britain for at least 30 years. Oswaldtwistle now has Accrington as the post town.
> Postcodes are obligatory.
> 
> Incidentally, are you sure the person's initial wasn't "W"?
> [Edit: Ah, no, I get the joke now. ]
> 
> Mr U Anchor
> 22 Letsbee Avenue
> Oswaldtwistle
> Accrington
> BB5 3DA
> 
> Counties ("Lancs" or "Lancashire" in your example) are no longer required in postal addresses in Britain, but lots of people include them anyway. Sometimes they even get them right.
> Commas at the end of each line (apart from the last two) are fine (in my opinion, at any rate).
> Streets and similar can be abbreviated ("Ave" in your case), and full stops are sometimes used.
> 
> Further edit: Given the person's name, it's a bit of a shame to have "Mr" there at all. Since it isn't needed, I suggest the first line should be "U Anchor".


Thanks a lot.


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## Uncle Jack

Loob said:


> I always assumed it had something to do with the fact that we all started word-processing, including those of us who - like me - were totally inadequate typists.  But the same forces should have applied in AmE


We also started entering addresses in databases. The full stops are okay, but commas and apostrophes are a right pain.


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## Egmont

I think it also has something to do with making it easier for OCR equipment in sorting machines to recognize addresses reliably, but I don't know enough about those machines to be certain.


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## Hildy1

entangledbank said:


> Ms does not stand for anything - it is not an abbreviation, so is unlikely _less likely_ to have a full stop.


I believe it is another abbreviation for "mistress", and has been around for quite a while.

_Like Miss and Mrs., the term Ms. has its origins in the female English title once used for all women, Mistress. It originated in the 17th century and was revived into mainstream usage in the 20th century._
MS - Wikipedia.


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## natkretep

Uncle Jack said:


> We also started entering addresses in databases. The full stops are okay, but commas and apostrophes are a right pain.


Mind you, in some electronic submissions (rarely now), they don't separate the address into different lines. If there was just one continuous line that you had to fill in, I would definitely put in a comma after the street name to separate it from the name of the village/town/city.


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