# Why does מים have one yod but חיים has two?



## Intercalaris

*faulty logic warning*
At first I thought מים has one yod because it is usually pronounce ma-im, and not ma-yim, but then I realized that חיים is pronounced cha-im and not chayim by my mother, so by that logic it should have only one yod. That logic isn't really logic, though XD
 Yod and vav are both supposed to be doubled when in the middle of a word when they are consonants, so why isn't yod doubled (or not doubled) in both מים and חיים ?

Is there a real reason, other than language naturally evolving and people spelling things different ways? (I noticed a bunch of words that aren't spelled according to ktiv maleh spelling rules, which is strange to me XD )

I told my mom about this, and she just said that spelling מים with two yods would be "just weird" to her. I wonder if it is the same for everyone...

Thanks in advance


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## Drink

From _In the Beginning: A Short History of the Hebrew Language_ by Joel M. Hoffman (page 210):



> There is general consensus among Israelis who don’t use the official rules (which is to say, almost all of them) that the letter _yud_ should be used for /i/ and /e/ and _vav_ for /o/ and /u/ except where it really doesn’t look good to do so. There is, however, little agreement on “where it doesn’t look good to do so.” There is also general consensus that the sounds /v/ and /y/ should often be written with a double letter, but, again, little consensus on exactly when. There is widespread agreement that putting three _yud_s or _vav_s in a row doesn’t look all that good.



Specifically about מים and חיים: the former can be spelled either way, but since it is such a common word, people easily recognize it and prefer to keep it shorter; the latter must be spelled with two yuds because the first yud is part of the root, while the second is part of the plural suffix.


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## Intercalaris

Drink said:


> From _In the Beginning: A Short History of the Hebrew Language_ by Joel M. Hoffman (page 210):
> 
> 
> 
> Specifically about מים and חיים: the former can be spelled either way, but since it is such a common word, people easily recognize it and prefer to keep it shorter; the latter must be spelled with two yuds because the first yud is part of the root, while the second is part of the plural suffix.


I was thinking, if you doubled a yod in the middle of a word to represent the y sound. and added another yod to represent the i sound after the y sound, it would look weird haha. חייים seems logical, but it just looks awful to me...

And your explanation for the spelling of mayim and chayim makes sense to me. Thanks for the help!


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## origumi

It is Ḥay-yim, so your logic is good but applies to pre-modern Hebrew, today almost everyone says Ḥa-im.


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## hadronic

The Academy has issued rules for those yods and vavs, and when to double them. And exempt a few of them, they are widely followed.
Very weirdly, the rules for yod are almost always the opposite of those for vav, I never really knew why.

Namely :
- yod as the middle root consonant of segholate nouns is not doubled : בית, זית, פיס...  But מוות, תווך...
- dual ending is written יים to distinguish it from the plural ending ים. So maym should have been מיים , but it may have been reanalized as a segholate of pseudo-root מ-י-מ, (cf. מימן, hydrogen), and follows first rule.
- yod for consonant "y"  is never doubled when in contact with other matres lectionis : טייל tiyel but טיול tiyul, בעיה but בעייתי. Exception: endings in -iya allow double yod שחייה
- vav can be doubled in contact with other matres lectionis : תווית, שלווה, תיווך...
- before the definite article, yod is not doubled but vav is : הילד but הוועד
- except when they are etymological (ie, would be present in ktiv khaser), more than 2 yod or vav is not allowed : meluveh (accompanied) on the model of melubeh מלובה should have been מלו-וו-ה but ktiv khaser being מְלֻוֶּה, only מלווה is permitted. Even worse, meluvot should be מלו-וו-ות, but ktiv khaser being  מְלֻוּוֹת, again only 2 vavs are allowed.
Famous example allowing 4 vavs:  וווו ! ve-vav-o, "and his hook". All 4 vavs are kept in ktiv khaser.
Three yods : ניסוייים  nisuyiyyim 
 "experimental" m.pl. 


Etc etc


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## Drink

hadronic said:


> - *after* the definite article, yod us not doubled but vav is : הילד but הוועד





hadronic said:


> Famous allowed 4 vavs וווו:  *u*-vav-o, ans his hook. All 4 vavs are kept in ktiv khaser.



You're welcome.


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## Intercalaris

hadronic said:


> The Academy has issued rules for those yods and vavs, and when to double them. And exempt a few of them, they are widely followed. Very weirdly, the rules for yod are almost always the opposite of those for vav, I never really knew why.
> 
> Namely :
> - yod as the middle root consonant of segholate nouns is not doubled : בית, זית, פיס...  But מוות, תווך...
> - dual ending is written יים to distinguish it from the plural ending ים. So maym should have מיים , but it may have been attracted by first rule (segholate of pseudo-root מ-י-מ, as also exemplified by מימן, hydrogen).
> - yod for consonant "y"  is never doubled when in contact with other matres lectionis : טייל tiyel but טיול tiyul, בעיה but בעייתי. Exception: endings in -iya allow double yod שחייה
> - vav can be doubled in contact wuth other matres lectionis : תווית, שלווה, תיווך...
> - before the definite article, yod us not doubled but vav is : הילד but הוועד
> - except when they are etymological (ie, would be present in ktiv khaser), more than 2 yod or vav is not allowed : meluveh (accompanied) on the model of melubeh מלובה should have been מלו-וו-ה but ktiv khaser being מְלֻוֶּה, only מלווה is permitted. Even worse, meluvot should be מלו-וו-ות, but ktiv khaser being  מְלֻוּוֹת, again only 2 vavs are allowed.
> Famous allowed 4 vavs וווו:  ve-vav-o, ans his hook. All 4 vavs are kept in ktiv khaser.
> 
> 
> Etc etc


wow, thank your for the information! This is a great summary, I really appreciate it 
And LOL וווו
I love how the whole idea of "and his hook" can be compressed into four letters XD

and 





Drink said:


> You're welcome.


Aren't the rules often ignored in colloquial speech? My mom said if you say and as "veh" and not u or va or anything else in the situations that would be more correct to use it, you will be completely understood.

I mean, Hebrew grammar, especially with nikkud, is extremely complicated (imo). I don't think everyone can remember all of the rules in casual speech... But I may be wrong XD

People might say lekulam instead of lekhulam, for example (Sorry, I may have gotten off-topic)


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## hadronic

Drink said:


> *u-*vav-o .



Sorry, I don't speak Hebrew but Israeli


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## Drink

hadronic said:


> Aren't the rules often ignored in colloquial speech? My mom said if you say and as "veh" and not u or va or anything else in the situations that would be more correct to use it, you will be completely understood.
> 
> I mean, Hebrew grammar, especially with nikkud, is extremely complicated (imo). I don't think everyone can remember all of the rules in casual speech... But I may be wrong XD
> 
> People might say lekulam instead of lekhulam, for example (Sorry, I may have gotten off-topic)



Yes, I just enjoy fixing it.



hadronic said:


> Sorry, I don't speak Hebrew but Israeli



Then you must have meant "והוו שלו". Anyway, you were just quoting the Academy's rules, weren't you? I don't think the Academy allows such clumsy pronunciation.


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