# TR- : from 'trace' to 'track'



## ThomasK

I suppose you could imagine this kind of sentence: 

(1) *The tracker*  (2) *traced  *(3) *the traces, *
which later on appeared to constitute (4) *a track *[a path] leading to the suspect,  but not a (4b) *railway (track)
*
(5) EXTRA: the findings did not correspond, were not coherent [like 'rail']* with the facts.

---

Not very stylish, but in Dutch you would have :
(1) *De speurder *[detective, the tracker/tracer ?]/ de *spoorzoeker *-_trace searcher, the tracker ?_)

(2) *opsporen *[a person] (track down) --  *bespeuren *(traced, but meaning: simply note, ...)

(3) *het spoor, de sporen,
*
(4) *het spoor* [so: same as 3]
> *de spoorweg* (railway)

(5) EXTRA*: *sporen met 
*
So in English I see 4 parallels out of 5. How about your language? If you use a different word, I'd be pleased to hear about the etymology, or the underlying metaphor at least.


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## apmoy70

In Greek:
*
To track*: «Ιχνηλατώ» (ixnila'to); Classical verb «ἰχνηλατέω/ἰχνηλατῶ» (ĭxnēlă'tĕō [uncontracted]/ĭxnēlā'tō [contracted])--> _to track, track out_. Compound, neuter noun «ἴχνος» ('īxnŏs)--> lit. _track, footstep_ metaph. _trace_ (with unknown etymology) + verb «ἐλαύνω» (ĕ'launō, e'lavno in the modern language)--> _to drive away, carry off, strike (when armed)_ with obscure etymology.
*Trace*: See «ἴχνος» ('īxnŏs) above.
The tracker/tracer is «ιχνηλάτης» (ixni'latis, _m./f._).
So, no TR-

«Τροχιά» however (tro'ça, _f._)--> _orbit_ does contain the stem TR. It's a medieval construction in order to translate the Latin _orbis_. It derives from the ancient masculine noun «τροχός» (trŏ'xŏs) or «τρόχος» ('trŏxŏs)- «τροχός» in Modern Greek -which describes the wheel, ultimately from the ancient and modern Greek verb «τρέχω» ('trĕxō and 'trexo)-->  _to move quickly, run_ (PIE base *dʰregʰ-, _to run_)


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## ThomasK

Sio you have the full series? But not 4a and 5, I believe. I did find Σιδηροτροχιά for railway track, but Σιδηρόδρομος for the railway itself (I believe the first element refers to iron). The Τροχιά did remind me of another homonym _spoor_, the English _spur_, meant to help a horseback rider to spur his horse, to make it move faster. 

Could there be a link ? I suddenly realize that it is etymologically related with _track/ trace_, indeed,but I can't seem to find an equivalent in Dutch... But then there is no sound link with _spur/ spoor_.


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## apmoy70

ThomasK said:


> Sio you have the full series? But not 4a and 5, I believe. I did find Σιδηροτροχιά for railway track, but  Σιδηρόδρομος for the railway itself (I believe the first element refers to iron).


Indeed, they derive from «σίδηρος» ('siðiros, _m._)--> _iron_; «σιδηροτροχιά» (siðirotro'ça, _f._) is the railway track (lit. _iron-orbit_) and «σιδηρόδρομος» (siði'roðromos, _m._) is the railway (lit. _iron-road_).
Nr 5 is described by either «αντιστοιχώ» (andisti'xo), or, «ανταποκρίνομαι» (andapo'krinome), so nothing like TR-.


ThomasK said:


> The Τροχιά did remind me of another homonymic spoor, the English spur, meant to help a horseback rider to spur his horse, to make it move faster.
> 
> Could there be a link ? I suddenly realize that it is etymologically related with track/ trace, indeed,but I can't seem to find an equivalent in Dutch... But then there is no sound link with spur/ spoor.


Interesting, all your observations provide food for thought


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## ThomasK

Pleased to hear that some considerations offer food for thought! 

I am a little surprised though at _orbit _as such: it reminds me of a round track, _une piste _in French, whereas I thought of a man-made path towards some place.


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## ThomasK

I see there are not many replies. Feel free to keep your answers very brief! ;-)


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## Tjahzi

I'm not sure whether to base the list on your English or Dutch list, I find them somewhat different. However, *Swedish* displays the following list:

(1) _spårare_ - tracker. n
(2) _spåra_ _(upp)_ - track (down). v.
(2b) _(upp)spårad_* - tracked. adj/n/past participle.
(3+4) _spår_ - track, trail, trace. n
(5) No match.

Notes:
Adding _upp_ to the verb _spåra_ or the adjective/past participle _spårad _(the verb requires _upp_ to be separately suffixed while the adjective/pp requires it to be incorporated as a prefix) gives them a perfective aspect.
The noun _spår_ is neuter and as such has _-Ø _as plural suffix.


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## DearPrudence

In *French*, I'm afraid we don't have words of the same family like this.

1)* le traqueur *(animals) // *poursuivant */ *détective* (personnes)
2) *traquer *quelqu'un (track sb down / hunt sb down) / *suivre la trace de* (follow the trace of)
3) les *traces*
4) la *trace*
4b) *la voie ferrée* (railway track)
5) *correspondre* / (there must be others but I can't think of others right now)


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## sakvaka

*Finnish*:

_Jäljittäjä jäljitti jälkiä, joiden myöhemmin havaittiin muodostavan polun, joka johti epäillyn jäljille, mutta ei junarataa. _

It's probably clear by now that _jälki_ (G jäljen, P jälkeä) means 'footprint, trace, mark; the thing that you leave behind you (_jälkeesi_)'. Pay special attention to the words _polku_ ('path' < _polkea_ 'tread, stamp, stomp') and _rata_ ('railroad track', <> Germanic 'trata/trad').

There are some common jälki-related expressions. One of them is the abovementioned
_olla rikollisen jäljillä_ = lit. be on the criminal's footsteps (be after him, follow him in order to catch him)
_talosta ei ollut jälkeäkään_ = there wasn't a sign of the house
_olla oikeilla/väärillä jäljillä_ = be on the right/wrong track
_siivota omat jälkensä_ = clean up one's own mess

And then, some strange derivations.
_jäljellä/jäljelle_ = left (over)
_Rasiassa oli jäljellä enää kolme suklaapalaa._
_jälkeen_ = after (illative)
_Kello viiden jälkeen tuli jo pimeä._
_jälkeenjäänyt_ = retard (lit. afterleft)
+ a dozen _jälkeen_ (after) derivations, inluding _jälkeläiset_ (posterity)


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## ThomasK

I understand _polku _is not etymologically linked with _jälki_, only semantically (the tread leaves an footprint). Very interesting is that I can copy your expressions when translating: they all refer to sporen, except for the last one; We only know: _alle sporen opruimen_ (which can mean: to clean one's mess, but is more general). 

The link between trace and left is fairly evident, but I don't see a parallel in Dutch. My main question here would be: did _jälke _give rise to a postposition?


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## mataripis

ThomasK said:


> I suppose you could imagine this kind of sentence:
> 
> (1) *The tracker*  (2) *traced  *(3) *the traces, *
> which later on appeared to constitute (4) *a track *[a path] leading to the suspect,  but not a (4b) *railway (track)
> *
> (5) EXTRA: the findings did not correspond, were not coherent [like 'rail']* with the facts.
> 
> ---
> 
> Not very stylish, but in Dutch you would have :
> (1) *De speurder *[detective, the tracker/tracer ?]/ de *spoorzoeker *-_trace searcher, the tracker ?_)
> 
> (2) *opsporen *[a person] (track down) --  *bespeuren *(traced, but meaning: simply note, ...)
> 
> (3) *het spoor, de sporen,
> *
> (4) *het spoor* [so: same as 3]
> > *de spoorweg* (railway)
> 
> (5) EXTRA*: *sporen met
> *
> So in English I see 4 parallels out of 5. How about your language? If you use a different word, I'd be pleased to hear about the etymology, or the underlying metaphor at least.


I forgot some old words in Tagalog but here are few that i remember,  1.) Tracker= sumususog/bumabagtas     2.)Traced= Nasusog/Natunton     3.)Traces= Bakas/footprints    4.)Track= Daanan/bagtas      <>  I don't understand no. 5      explanation about the etymologies of these words will take time.


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## ThomasK

Do you see any common roots (without an etymological dictionary) ? (As for 5 : it is something like 'correspond with', because _sporen _can also refer to trainrails.)


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## mataripis

ThomasK said:


> Do you see any common roots (without an etymological dictionary) ? (As for 5 : it is something like 'correspond with', because _sporen _can also refer to trainrails.)


I see! number 5 is "Pathway" and it is "landas" in Tagalog.In the following words, Bumabagtas,nabagtas= the root word is "Bagtas".This word is old and archaic to Pilipino language.It means " the route" that has no definite trail but within a broader area that will lead to the right destination. In the word "Natunton" the related Tagalog word is "Tungtong" that means "Set the foot" or " standing in point of location".The meaning of "tunton" is " find"/ "i reached the place".  Bakas is footprint or something marked in the pathway like the "bakas"/marks of wheels in the soft ground."Daanan" means the road from root word "Daan"(road) with other term in Tagalog like "lansangan"(road/street).  These are the sample sentences that show how these words are used. 1.) Trace the route= susugin ang Daanan/Bagtasin ang Daanan.    2.)Can you pinpoint the exact location? Matunton mo kaya ang wastong Dako?   3.) The pathway to serenity= Ang landas patungo sa Katiwasayan/Landas ng katiwasayan.  4.) Another route= Iba pang daanan/lusutan. Note: I am using Tagalog terms/phrases that are not commonly used by the urban folks.The words may sound funny to most Pilipino, but i need to use them so that preciseness of Tagalog language will not change or be altered by the entries of loan words. I am using the Tagalog from Manila/Bulacan and Cavite.


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## ThomasK

But then: is there a word like fitting in into the pathway, containing 'landas'? In the words you mention, I seem to find 'susu' and 'bak' as roots, but maybe I am simply wrong.


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## mataripis

ThomasK said:


> But then: is there a word like fitting in into the pathway, containing 'landas'? In the words you mention, I seem to find 'susu' and 'bak' as roots, but maybe I am simply wrong.


The word "landas" is often used in poetry or teachings. but we can use landas as "pathway" in = 1.)There is the pathway to the next town= Nandiyan ang landas patungo sa kasunod na Bayan. 2.) The pathway to serenity is good morality.=Ang landas sa katiwasayan ay ang mabuting Dangal. /// The word "susug" has root word "Sug" meaning "to move while searching", and the word "Bakas" is original term for "mark" as a result of weight/pressure.


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## ThomasK

mataripis said:


> I see! number 5 is "Pathway" and it is "*landas*" [path] in Tagalog.
> 
> In the following words, _Bumabagtas,nabagtas _= the root word is "*Bagtas*". This word is old and archaic to Pilipino language.It means " the route" that has no definite trail but within a broader area that will lead to the right destination.
> 
> In the word "Natunton" the related Tagalog word is _*Tungtong*_, which means "Set the foot" or " standing in point of location".The meaning of "*tunton*" is " find"/ "I reached the place".
> 
> *Bakas *is footprint or something marked in the pathway like the "bakas"/marks of wheels in the soft ground. [TK: So traces...]
> 
> "*Daanan*" means the road from root word "Daan"(road), with other term in Tagalog like "*lansangan*"(road/street).
> 
> These are the sample sentences that show how these words are used.
> a1.) Trace the route_= susugin ang Daanan/Bagtasin ang Daanan.
> _a2.)Can you pinpoint the exact location? _Matunton mo kaya ang wastong Dako?
> _a3.) The pathway to serenity_= Ang landas patungo sa Katiwasayan/Landas ng katiwasayan.
> _a4.) Another route=_ Iba pang daanan/lusutan. _
> 
> Note: I am using Tagalog terms/phrases that are not commonly used by the urban folks.The words may sound funny to most Pilipinos, but i need to use them so that preciseness of Tagalog language will not change or be altered by the entries of loan words. I am using the Tagalog from Manila/Bulacan and Cavite.





mataripis said:


> The word "landas" is often used in poetry or teachings. but we can use landas as "pathway" in =
> b3.)There is the pathway to the next town= _Nandiyan ang *landas *patungo sa kasunod na Bayan_.
> c3.) The pathway to serenity is good morality.=_Ang *landas *sa katiwasayan ay ang mabuting Dangal_.
> 
> /// The word "susug" has root word "*Sug*" meaning "to move while searching", and the word "*Bakas*" is original term for "mark" as a result of weight/pressure.



That information is quite interesting. As for 'sug': do you happen to have a _*sug-*_word referring to *error *(looking for something but not finding it, the original meaning of error).
How come that *tungtong *referring to setting foot, and _*tunton *_to finding ? I may have taken the wrong path, may I not ? 
Could you explain *bakas *a little more and link the meaning to the above (a1)? Is it like marking, establishing a mark, literally ?


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## mataripis

ThomasK said:


> That information is quite interesting. As for 'sug': do you happen to have a _*sug-*_word referring to *error *(looking for something but not finding it, the original meaning of error).
> How come that *tungtong *referring to setting foot, and _*tunton *_to finding ? I may have taken the wrong path, may I not ?
> Could you explain *bakas *a little more and link the meaning to the above (a1)? Is it like marking, establishing a mark, literally ?


 Sug means "to move" with clear form "isug"(move a little bit).(not exactly "error" /maybe "trials") . Tungtong can be expressed as = I am standing already in a holy ground= nakatayo/nakatungtong na ako sa banal na lupa. "Tunton" can be expressed as = Atlas, I reached/find the exact place.(Sa wakas, natunton ko na ang wastong Dako!).  "Bakas" is an old term for "footprint"(in the sand) or "mark"(anything that were formed in the soft pathway)1.) There were footprints of the visitors in the sand.= may mga bakas ng paa ng mga panauhin sa buhanginan. 2.) But sometimes,past memories can be reffered as "bakas ng lumipas" = The past history have signs/clues that will tell/reveal the truth= Ang nakalipas na kasaysayan ay may tanda at bakas na magsasabi/maghahayag ng katotohanan.


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## ThomasK

mataripis said:


> *Sug *means "to move" with clear form "isug"(move a little bit), not exactly "error" /maybe "trials".
> _*Tungtong *_can be expressed as in: I am standing already in a holy ground( _nakatayo/nakatungtong na ako sa banal na lup_a). "*Tunton*" can be expressed as = At last, I have _reached/found _the exact place (_Sa wakas, natunton ko na ang wastong Dako!_).
> "*Bakas*" is an old term for "footprint"(in the sand) or "mark"(anything that were formed in the soft pathway:
> 1.) There were footprints of the visitors in the sand.= _may mga bakas ng paa ng mga panauhin sa buhanginan_.
> 2.) But sometimes,past memories can be reffered as "bakas ng lumipas". As in: The past history have signs/clues that will tell/reveal the truth= Ang _nakalipas na kasaysayan ay may tanda at bakas na magsasabi/maghahayag ng katotohanan_.



I like it because it is more precise now. Thanks! I wish to add though that to say the least, I am amazed at the meanings of "Tun(g)ton(g)".


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## ThomasK

Using Google Translate I found these for 'trace', tracking, noticing: 

Czech: _sledovat, trasování, trasování
_Polish: _śledź ślad śladu
_Lithuanian: _atsekti pėdsakų pėdsakų
_Russian: _проследить след след _(I believe I recognize /sp/ all over !)


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## arielipi

This thing just doesnt correspond with hebrew way of saying it; the structure would be more of
 (1)[the person whose job is to find] (2)[found/traced] (3)[the traces]

though no parallels between numbers, each is its own word.


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## bibax

> Russian: проследить след след (I believe I recognize /sp/ all over !)


No, the root of the Russian words is sled (л is l[ambda], it differs from п = p_).
The root sled is Panslavic.

Czech:

stopa = footprint, trace (e.g. scent trace, trace element, vanish without a trace), ft (unit);
stopovati = to trace;
stopař = tracker, scout, sleuth(hound);

sled = sequence (e.g. sequence of events), train (e.g. wave train, train of thoughts);
> výsledek (result), následek (consequence), poslední (the last);
> následník (trůnu) = successor (of the throne);
sledovati = to follow; tajně (secretly) sledovati = to spy on sb;
slíditi = to sniff around, to snoop around;
slídič = snooper, spy, tracker, sleuth (dog);

Your sentence: Stopař sleduje stopy. Stopař stopuje (stopy, redundant)._


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## ThomasK

@ arielipi: I did not intend to describe some logic: I just listed verbs that have the same root. I'd say: the trace word is the root word in Dutch, and the rest 'follows' from that.

@bibax : Please forgive me: I thought I recognized the small pi sign! But don't you see some kind of link between the two words?


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## arielipi

So, there is no word that all other words follow; that is i dont have to use (or im not restricted to) certain words - i can have several constructs.


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## ThomasK

I thought the semantic similarity would lead to some words having the same roots at least, but that is not the case then...


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## arielipi

You can have words from the same root, but its not restricted to having words of the same root in the sentence.

EDIT: I'll make it clearer - in the sentence the tracker traced the traces, in hebrew, i dont have to use words from the same root, i can, but i dont have to; as with everything in hebrew - if its derived from the same root it will bear the same meaning.


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## bibax

> @bibax : Please forgive me: I thought I recognized the small pi sign! But don't you see some kind of link between the two words?


I have already forgiven ye. 

Now I found that in Russian the noun *след* /sled/ means 'footprint/trace' whereas in Czech *sled* means 'sequence', an abstract concept (= по*след*овательность in Russian, quite a long word derived from след).

e.g. запаховый след (Ru) = pachová stopa (Cz) = scent trace (En);

It seems that the abstract meaning of sled (i.e. sequence) in Czech evolved from 'a sequence of footprints' (the footprints usually occur in sequences).

The Czech word stopa (= footprint) is related to German Stapfe with the same meaning.


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