# FR: the computer / life, wine, etc. - article for generic nouns



## Jervoltage

Greetings,

In English, count nouns are made generic thus:

- _A_ + singular noun: _A computer is a machine._ - Zero + plural                  noun: _Computers are machines._ 

- _the_                  + singular noun: _The computer has changed modern life.

_Whereas noncount nouns can be used generically in this way:

- Zero + noncount                  noun: _Life wouldn't be the same without computers._



How do we form generic nouns in French?

Many thanks.


----------



## OLN

_
A computer is a machine._ Un ordinateur est une machine -> _Computers are machines. _Les ordinateurs (tous les) sont des machines. (simple transformation des singuliers en pluriels)
En français, pour exprimer ce pluriel anglais, on peut aussi dire *L'*ordinateur (générique) est une machine.

_The computer has changed modern life._*L'*ordinateur (générique) a bouleversé notre façon de vivre ou nos vies (pas générique du tout )
Ou : *Les* ordinateurs (l'ensemble des machines de ce type ; autre forme générique) ont bouleversé...

 _Life wouldn't be the same without computers._ La vie (générique) ne serait pas la même sans *les* ordinateurs (l'ensemble des machines de ce type) ou sans *l'*ordinateur. (générique aussi, comme dans la phrase précédente)
Ou : Nos vies ne seraient pas les mêmes sans ordinateur*s*.

Je ne sais pas si ma réponse est complète.


----------



## penrice

So does this mean that if you wanted to say "He likes wine." or "He hates beer", you would use "Il aime le vin." and "Il déteste la bière."?
And only context will decide whether you meant "He likes wine (in general)." or "He likes the wine (that I gave him as a birthday present)."?


----------



## Maître Capello

Yes, exactly. 

_Il aime *le* vin._ = He likes wine (in general) / He likes *the* wine (I gave him as birthday present).
_Il déteste *la* bière._ = He hates beer (in general) / He hates *the* beer (I gave him as birthday present).

Note however that the latter sense is unlikely if you don't specify the wine or beer you are talking about. We would indeed rather say, _Il aime *ce* vin_ or something similar. In other words, if the full sentence is _Il aime le vin_, the former sense is the more likely.


----------



## penrice

Thank you, Maitre Capelo!


----------



## dcx97

I should add that when it comes to animals, one needs to be very careful, because although one must use the definite article, one must decide whether to use it in the singular or plural. Thus:

J'aime les chiens. (I love dogs.)
J'aime le chien. (I love dog meat.)


----------



## much_rice

Let's say you're at a friend's house and the friend has pets. The dog is kind to you, but the cat bites. Could you say, "J'aime le chien, mais je n'aime pas le chat"?


----------



## k@t

much_rice said:


> Could you say, "J'aime le chien, mais je n'aime pas le chat"?


Oui, parce que dans ce cas, *chien* et *chat* ne sont plus dans des emplois génériques, mais désignent un chien et un chat en particulier, identifiés par la situation.


----------



## Nicomon

much_rice said:


> Could you say, "J'aime le chien, mais je n'aime pas le chat"?


 I agree with k@t that you could say that, and it would be understood, but that doesn't sound very natural to my ears.
Just as I find it a little odd to say in English :  _I like the dog but I don't like the cat. _

In such situation, I would be more likely to say:
_ J'aime *ton *chien, mais je n'aime pas *ton *chat = I like *your* dog, but I don't like *your* cat. 
_
Or if I was talking to a third person about this friend's pets:
_J'aime *le *chien *de X,* mais je n'aime pas *son* chat =  I like *X's* dog, but I don't like *his *cat. _


----------



## AH92

Today I came across _Les hommes naissent libres et égaux en droits._
I think it's pretty obvious that the author meant _Men are born free and equal in rights._, not _The men are born free and equal in rights._
My question is: why didn't he simply use the singular (L'homme naît...) since he was talking about men as a class, not as individuals? After all, _Le chat est un mammifère. _means _Cats are mammals._


----------



## Nicomon

AH92 said:


> After all, _Le chat est un mammifère. _means _Cats are mammal_


 _Les chats sont des mammifères_ would mean the same thing,

You quoted the first article of  _Déclaration des droits de l'homme.   _I have more often heard / read :  _*Tous* les hommes..._
In my opinion,  It wouldn't really make sense to say/write in the singular : _L'homme naît libre et égal en droits._ 

Égal à qui / quoi ?   That said, grammarians may have a better explanation.


----------



## olivier68

Exactly. I think it is not a question a grammar, but a question of meaning. It could have been written (singular as a collective) "L'homme naît libre".  But… if you include "_equal_", you necessarily/implicitely make a comparison, here between _a man_ with _another man_. It is really difficult to avoid the plural.


----------



## FloMar

I have a question about the use of articles, and fear that I may be confusing them with the use in English and Portuguese. 

When talking in general terms (e.g. work is good for the health) do with need an article in French ( I know the rule here about the article with abstract nouns – e.g. l’amour est aveugle)? When giving something a title (e.g. in lesson aims – work) do we need to use an article?

If I've understood what's written above, we do need to use the article.  Please clarify


----------



## Nomenclature

FloMar said:


> When talking in general terms (e.g. work is good for the health) do with need an article in French


Yes, you do 

_Le travail est bon pour la santé_



FloMar said:


> When giving something a title (e.g. in lesson aims – work) do we need to use an article?


Sorry, I'm not sure I understand what you're asking here? Could you explain further?


----------



## FloMar

The topic of today's lesson is work: aujourd'hui, l'objectif de la leçon est *le* travail.


----------



## Nomenclature

Yep, the article is needed. French uses the article a lot more in these general situations […].


----------



## FloMar

Many thanks.  It's comforting to know someone has the same issues that I've been having, but in reverse. I know I'm rusty, but was beginning to doubt myself a lot more than I think is necessary.


----------

