# All dialects: الإعراب noun case endings



## MathiasSWE

Hey all,
  I am reading about colloquial Arabic with its general features. And now I have reached a paragraph of which I don’t understand at all what is being said. Basically it talks about how none of the dialects have any equivalent to the system of three states/status of standard Arabic. Apparently the dialects only have status constructus and status absolutus. I understand that status constructus is al-iḍāfah, but what is status absolutus and which is the third status that standard Arabic has but the dialects don’t? Something tells me it has got to do with noun forms.

  Thanks!


----------



## cherine

Hi Mathias,

I don't know about these names, as I've never studied the Arabic grammar in any other language but Arabic. But as you mentioned al-iDafa, I think thoses states refer to the case system (which are called in Arabic raf3, khafD and naSb). So, yes, these cases are not used in dialects. Although I remember that some bedouin or Najdi dialects use them.
In most Arabic dialects, noun don't change forms when they're subject or object...etc, but they do change in fusHa (Classical and Modern Standard Arabic).


----------



## Josh_

Hmm? Without seeing the paragraph, my initial thought is that it is talking about the i3raab vowel endings.  In standard Arabic there are three cases -- حالة الرفع وحالة الجر وحالة نصب.  These are often translated as the nominative, the genitive, and the subjunctive cases (respectively) in English.  حالة الرفع is characterized by a word final ــُـ (Damma), حالة الجر by word final ــِـ kasra, and حالة نصب by ــَـ fatHa.  حالة الجر is also sometimes called the contruct state case (status constructus), because words that are in the construct state are مجرور, that is in حالة الجر.  

Now, while standard Arabic exhibits these three cases, in the form of word-final vowels, the dialects do not (there are some exceptions, of course).  Even though the dialects do not exhibit these word-final vowels, they still do have a construct state, as that just refers to to a possessive relationship between words.  I think that it what the paragraph is talking about.

As for "status absolutus" (absolute state) I am unsure about what that refers, but perhaps just all word structures other than those in the construct state.

It seems Cherine and I were posting at the same time.


----------



## Masjeen

cherine said:


> I remember that some bedouin or Najdi dialects use them.


 
No, We don't


----------



## clevermizo

Actually I've heard of dialects that still possess _tanwiin_ the -n mark of indefiniteness. But I believe there are no extant dialects at all that use different vowels to mark case (this is part of the argument that the spoken Arabic which was used as the language spread had already lost this system). Are there really any dialects with different vowel endings?


----------



## Axa1902

[Moderator's Note: Merged with a previous thread]
Hi! I'd just like to know, if it [Egyptian Arabic] does have case endings, would you type them for each quantity?, e.g: singular masculine, singular feminine, dual masculine, dual feminine, plural masculine and plural feminine (accusative, nominative, genitive).


I really need your help, thanks in advance!


----------



## elroy

Like most (all?) other dialects, Egyptian Arabic does not mark nouns for case.  Singular nouns have no endings, dual nouns have one ending (ـين), and sound plural nouns have two endings (ـين and ات) that correspond to different genders but not different cases.


----------



## cherine

The only case ending I can think of is the tanween al-fat7 (again like most other dialects) and no, not everyone write it. Some even write it with a nuun instead of the 2 fat7as, like شكرن، فعلن... 
In old Egyptian movies, a common illustration of illetracy was to see illetrate or semi-literate people write العلم نورن (instead of العلم نورٌ). Unfortunately, this joke is now lost to many.


----------



## elroy

cherine said:


> The only case ending I can think of is the tanween al-fat7


 Ah, yes, good point, but I would probably consider those frozen MSA borrowings.  Sort of like how السلامُ عليكم is pronounced with the inflection on the first word.


----------



## cherine

I agree. But as it still is a case ending, I thought I'd mention it.


----------



## Axa1902

So, does Egyptian Arabic have cases like MSA does?


----------



## Ihsiin

No, no modern dialect of Arabic (as far as I'm aware) maintains case endings. The _-an _ending, which in Classical Arabic is the indefinite accusative ending, operates in modern dialects as an adverbial marker and not as a case ending. The examples Cherine has provided are frozen forms imported from the classical language, they are not produced in the vernacular language. Nouns in modern vernacular Arabic are not declined by case.


----------



## analeeh

If you'd take a look at this comment again:



elroy said:


> Like most (all?) other dialects, *Egyptian Arabic does not mark nouns for case. * Singular nouns have no endings, dual nouns have one ending (ـين), and sound plural nouns have two endings (ـين and ات) that correspond to different genders but not different cases.


----------



## WadiH

Ihsiin said:


> The _-an _ending, which in Classical Arabic is the indefinite accusative ending, operates in modern dialects as an adverbial marker and not as a case ending.



Why doesn't an adverbial marker qualify as a case ending?


----------



## Ihsiin

Wadi Hanifa said:


> Why doesn't an adverbial marker qualify as a case ending?



Because it doesn’t mark case.


----------



## WadiH

What is it marking then?  What about things like حال منصوبة، منصوب على الاختصاص، ظرف منصوب, do you consider these cases or adverbials?


----------



## fdb

This old thread has now come back to life. The original question was not about cases (اعراب) but about the system of “states” in Semitic languages like Aramaic, where you have the absolute state (malk-ā “a queen”), the construct state (malk-at “queen of…”), and the determined state (malk-at-ā “the queen”). The cited book seems to be saying that Arabic has the absolute state malikatun, and the construct state malikatu, but instead of the (suffixed) determined state it has the prefixed al-malikatu. But does the author really think that this true only in the dialects and not in classical Arabic?


----------



## WadiH

Impossible to know as the poster is long gone and we don't know what author he's referring to. I think the reason the discussion shifted to 'case' is because that's the only difference between Fus-ha and dialects. I just posted the question here since the topic was already being discussed and didn't want to start a new thread.


----------



## Ihsiin

Wadi Hanifa said:


> What is it marking then?  What about things like حال منصوبة، منصوب على الاختصاص، ظرف منصوب, do you consider these cases or adverbials?



I’m not so familiar with Arabic grammatical terms so I can’t speak to these precisely, but as I see it a case system works to distinguish the function of nouns within phrases. Modern dialects don’t do this. We can’t even say that the case endings have reduced to zero apart from النصب, because for example I can’t say _čān sarīʕan_, as we would say كان سريعًا in فصحى. Rather the _-an_ ending operates as an adverbial marker, the same as Italian _-mente_ or English _-ly_, and does not really indicate case.


----------

