# date rape drug / date rape



## sobivre

Qu'est-ce que c'est le mot pour "date rape" comme la drogue?


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## edwingill

I did not know that date rape had a drug connotation. Please clarify


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## sobivre

En anglais, "date rape" est les deux un verbe ou action mais aussi une drogue "a roofie/ a date rape drug"


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## edwingill

drogue du viol sur rendez-vous. It is a guess


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## Trisia

Oh, yes it's a drug that you're supposed to put in someone's drink/food and it makes them quite submissive (and a bit unconscious) so you can have your way with them.
Maybe you have a word for that?

On the other hand, I just found the medical terms:

"However, the term "date rape drug" usually applies to the drugs *Rohypnol*,  *Gamma Hydroxy Butyrate* (GHB) and *Ketamine Hydrochloride*."

Source


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## archijacq

peut-être:
GHB ou "drogue du viol"
 Le GHB ou acide gamma hydro butyrique est un produit stupéfiant que les consommateurs utilisent pour favoriser des relations sexuelles " forcées ".


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## Moon Palace

Hello everybody, 
I am reviving this thread because I found the phrase 'date rape' in a context where drug was not involved. Besides, Wiki does not relate it to drugs. 
Here is the sentence I have found:

"Part of the difficulty is that the "date rape" scenario, in court, is regarded as uniquely intractable."

What would we say in French for 'date rape'? Is there a set phrase? I fall short of finding the befitting combination. The best I have been able to find is '_viol social'_, but is this really the phrase used in court to refer to this situation?
Thanks in advance for your help.


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## Already-Seen

> Besides, Wiki does not relate it to drugs.


 
 Really?? The second paragraph of the linked article titled "*drug* facilitated rape" states: 


> In some cases, "date rape drugs" such as GHB[2], flunitrazepam[3], temazepam[4], midazolam[5], and ketamine[6] may be used to neutralize resistance or render the victim unconscious. Such drugs will usually also affect memory of the event.


 
On Canadian websites, I found "viol sur rendez-vous" and "viol par une connaissance". I prefer the second translation. (Although it seems to be a translation of "acquaintance rape" not "date rape"...)


ETA: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drogue_de_viol 


> Ce procédé est souvent utilisé dans les cas de « viols commis par une connaissance » (_acquaintance ("date") rape_ en anglais).


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## Moon Palace

Already-Seen said:


> Really?? The second paragraph of the linked article titled "*drug* facilitated rape" states



Yes, really.  As you stated righteously, the second paragraph is entitled 'drug facilitated rape' and is a particular kind of date rape. The first paragraph, in its general definition of date rape, does not mention drugs at all. Hence, date rape is not characterized by the use of drugs but by the fact the victim knew her assailant. This is the translation I am interested in. 

'viol par une connaissance' fits well the definition indeed, although I doubt it is the phrase used in French courts of justice (sounds too long for judicial language, sorry )
Thank you for your answer, Already-Seen.


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## Angle O'Phial

The GDT gives simply





			
				GDT said:
			
		

> viol commis par un ami


 which leads me to suspect that this phenomenon is not really recognized as particularly distinct from _stranger rape_ in francophone society. The OED's earliest quotation is from 1975.


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## Cath.S.

> viol sur rendez-vous


I do not wish to offend anyone, but I feel compelled to say that the phrase is properly _ludicrous_, and sounds like this kind of dialogue took place beforehand between the rapist and his victim:
« Bon, dis-moi quel jour et à quelle heure tu serais disponible pour que je te viole.
--Vendredi, vers vingt-trois heures, ça t'irait ? »
_Viol *en / lors d'un* rendez-vous_ would make more sense but I've never heard them.


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## Already-Seen

egueule said:


> I do not wish to offend anyone, but I feel compelled to say that the phrase is properly _ludicrous, _[...]


I got the same reaction. It makes it sound like the victim knew but I found it on several Canadian websites so I thought I'd share. What I should have said (but hadn't noticed at the time) is that they use quotation marks: http://www.citizenship.gov.on.ca/owd/french/resources/publications/dispelling/dating/


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## Cath.S.

Already-Seen said:


> I got the same reaction. It makes it sound like the victim knew but I found it on several Canadian websites so I thought I'd share. What I should have said (but hadn't noticed at the time) is that they use quotation marks: http://www.citizenship.gov.on.ca/owd/french/resources/publications/dispelling/dating/


Tu as bien fait de citer l'expression, puisqu'elle existe.
Tout ce que j'espère, c'est que son emploi ne se généralisera pas. Pour ma part, même si l'on me l'emballe dans une douzaine de paires de guillemets, je ne l'emploierai pas.


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## Cath.S.

[…]

Back to translating. Acquaintance date and rape date not being synonymous, I don't think _viol par une connaissance_ / _par un proche_ are suitable translations for the thread title: if you let in your next-door neighbor who says he's run out of coffee filters, it's not a date rape.


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## Moon Palace

egueule said:


> Back to translating. Acquaintance date and rape date not being synonymous, I don't think _viol par une connaissance_ / _par un proche_ are suitable translations for the thread title: if you let in your next-door neighbor who says he's run out of coffee filters, it's not a date rape.



Needless to say I fully agree on the appalling aspect of what is at stake here. 
Yet, regarding its translation, I am not so sure the neighbour can be excluded from the list of potential assailants, owing to what Wiki says on date rape: 



> The majority of young women raped (68 percent) knew their rapist either as a boyfriend, friend or casual acquaintance.



'casual acquaintance' seems pretty broad-reaching to me. 
Hence, and although it is essentially used in Canadian backgrounds, I would keep, unless anyone has a better idea, '_viol commis par une connaissance'. _


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## KaRiNe_Fr

Salut,



egueule said:


> [...] sounds like this kind of dialogue took place beforehand between the rapist and his victim:
> « Bon, dis-moi quel jour et à quelle heure tu serais disponible pour que je te viole.
> --Vendredi, vers vingt-trois heures, ça t'irait ? »
> _Viol *en / lors d'un* rendez-vous_ would make more sense but I've never heard them.


J'avoue avoir pensé à peu près la même chose à la lecture de ce fil (viol sur ordonnance...). 
Je me demandais juste si ce type de viol, n'était tout simplement pas à qualifier de « avec préméditation »...


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## bloomiegirl

No, the purpose of the date was not the rape -- at least not for the women. The rapist may have used the subterfuge of a date to lure the woman, or perhaps all was well and then at some point during the date he lost control and forced himself on the woman.


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## Moon Palace

Sorry for insisting, but here is a website specialised in date rape information, and they give a list of who can be the assailant. Most helpful, and as you will see it includes 'a workmate'. I wouldn't personally associate a workmate to _un proche (_and the TLF definition seems to back this). I believe _proche _to be too restrictive and narrowing the potential assailants to family members or friends, when it is not the case in "date rape".


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## bloomiegirl

Hello Moon Palace. Your link is "Who commits date rape?" Unfortunately it can be _anyone one knows socially_. But that is also part of the definition; as you probably saw at "What is date rape?" So if someone is raped by a coworker that they socialize with, then yes I think it would be classified as date rape. But if it's a coworker that they don't socialize with, then I do not believe it would be classified as date rape.


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## Moon Palace

bloomiegirl said:


> Hello Moon Palace. Your link is "Who commits date rape?" Unfortunately it can be _anyone one knows socially_. But that is also part of the definition; as you probably saw at "What is date rape?" So if someone is raped by a coworker that they socialize with, then yes I think it would be classified as date rape. But if it's a coworker that they don't socialize with, then I do not believe it would be classified as date rape.



Agreed, bloomiegirl. Yet, this worker they may socialize with does not become for all that '_un proche'. _As far as I know, 'socializing' does not imply any close relationship, which is the idea conveyed in _proche _according to the TLF.


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## Nicomon

This is what I read... 





> Date rape is when _someone you know_ socially (*but not family*) makes you have sex when you don’t want to. It could be someone you meet at a party, or someone you love and trust, like your boyfriend.


 So a rape committed by say... a dirty old uncle would not be considered a "date" rape. But a coworker is indeed someone you know socially.

Obviously, the idea here is to translate date. Now, date can mean _rendez-vous_. But there is also _date_ as in _who's your date tonight / x is dating y / Sam and his date went to the movies..._ etc.

So far, _viol commis par une connaissance_ or GDT's _viol commis par un ami_ (in the wide sense of _ami_ - not necessarily "close friend") seem right to me. Or perhaps, and as seen on yet another Canadian website... _viol de fréquentation_


> Il y a agression sexuelle chaque fois qu’une personne refuse d’avoir des rapports sexuels mais qu’elle y est forcée que ce soit dans un mariage ou une relation amoureuse ou rendez-vous amoureux (ces types d’agressions sont qualifiées de "*viol de fréquentation*") autant que dans le cas où l’agresseur est quelqu’un que la victime connaît ("*viol commis par une connaissance*"), que dans les cas d’inconnus.


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## Moon Palace

Thank you Nicomon for your input. I think 'viol de fréquentation' is quite relevant, as 'viol commis par une connaissance'. I still feel uncomfortable about 'un proche / un ami' since 'ami' in French is part of a narrow circle of acquaintances.


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## Cath.S.

Et si on mettait le terme dans un vrai contexte ? Je veux dire, pas un article théorique consacré au date rape ?
Je vous propose celui-ci, le résumé d'un entretien avec l'actrice Helen Miren qui révèle qu'elle a été deux fois dans sa jeunesse victime de_ date rape _:
(...) the British-born actress said date-rape was a "tricky area" and something men and women had to work out between themselves.
She said it was rape if a couple engaged in sexual activity but the woman said "no" at the last second. 
Source

Manifestement, dans son cas, elle a été violée par des hommes qui n'étaient pas de simples _connaissances_, mais bien dans le cadre d'un rapport amoureux non-platonique.

Je propose, sur le modèle du concept de _viol entre conjoints_, le _viol entre partenaires ou le viol entre amoureux_.
Qu'en pensez-vous ?


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## Nicomon

Salut Cath,

Je crois que dans le contexte précis que tu cites, il s'agit en effet d'un _viol _entre _partenaires / amoureux. _

Mais si "date rape" = sex with someone you know socially (selon la définition que j'ai mise plus haut), à mon avis on ne pourrait pas toujours le traduire ainsi. 

Je pense à "blind date", par exemple. Si une femme se fait violer par le salaud qu'on lui a présenté comme "blind date"... elle n'est pas amoureuse de lui, ni sa partenaire. 
Mais bon est-ce alors un "date rape" ou un "rape", tout court? 

J'en suis à me demander si _viol sur rendez-vous _ou_ rendez-vous viol_ ne conviendrait pas, finalement.


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## Cath.S.

> Mais si "date rape" = sex with someone you know socially (selon la définition que j'ai mise plus haut), à mon avis on ne pourrait pas toujours le traduire ainsi.


Salut Nicole, 
je pensais avoir été claire, mais apparemment ce n'était pas le cas et je prie que l'on me pardonne.
La traduction que je suggérais ne convenait qu'au type de situation décrite dans mon texte, en d'autre termes il me semble que _date rape_, en anglais, englobe un trop grand nombre de situations différentes pour que l'on puisse lui trouver un unique équivalent.


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## Nicomon

egueule said:


> Salut Nicole,
> je pensais avoir été claire, mais apparemment ce n'était pas le cas et je prie que l'on me pardonne.


Salut Cath,
À la relecture (tu as écrit « dans son cas »)... oui, c'était clair.  

J'ai répondu à 1h45 du matin, un peu endormie.


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## Moon Palace

egueule said:


> en d'autre termes il me semble que _date rape_, en anglais, englobe un trop grand nombre de situations différentes pour que l'on puisse lui trouver un unique équivalent.



At long last, I believe we agree on this.


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## Nicomon

I agree as well.  And here comes the famous cliché... "context is everything".


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## Budd

I hope I am not beating a dead horse by reviving this thread.

Looking for a judicial definition of date rape will most probably lead nowhere: every state in the US has laws concerning rape and many apply additional punishments if a drug is used to facilitate the rape: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_rape.  However, the various state statutes, as far as I can tell, do not classify date rape separately from other kinds of rape.

Moreover, in ordinary usage the term has become elastic, including rape during a date with someone well known, a first date, possibly after a pickup (though this might be debatable; see Cath's post above at the end, with which I am not in agreement), and so on.  The only common denominators seem to be some level of acquaintance and the "date" itself, i.e., an agreement to spend private time together.

This breadth or elasticity may explain why date rape is not a legal category and is so difficult to translate: it is too hard to define, and the laws regarding rape in general already to serve to punish the rapist.

For example, I know two women who said they were date raped.  Both were with men they had known for at least a couple of months and with whom they'd gone out a few times.  The first one described what sounded pretty much like forcible rape: at her apartment, the man pushed her down, pulled off her clothes, and raped her.  The second said she and the man were making out on the floor, naked, when he entered her.  Not easy to create a category with accounts like these.


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## orlando09

A "date rape" doesn't just mean a rape by someone you know, it means two people are on a date (un rendez-vous amoureux) and the man forces the woman to have sex when she isn't ready/doesn't want to. It could also mean generally a rape of this type by a boyfriend, but doesn't mean by an uncle or a friend or acquaintance etc.  

In British English I have never heard of drugs like rohypnol being referred to as "a date rape", though they might perhaps sometimes be referred to as "date rape drugs" (for example in tabloid newspaper articles about them). They are said to be used by some men in order to make it easier to force themselves on women, for example someone who they have just met in a bar and are chatting up (so in this case not necessarily a "date" as such, but at least not the supposedly classic rape scenario of a man attacking a stranger in a dark street or something).


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## L'irlandais

Nicomon said:


> I agree as well.  And here comes the famous cliché... "context is everything".


Context, like orlando09 says = un rendez-vous amoureux avec quelqu'un...  which turns sour.


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## MarianaElSalvador

Date-rape: cambriolage sexuel parfait.


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## Already-Seen

MarianaElSalvador said:


> Date-rape: cambriolage sexuel parfait.



I see that this wiki article, http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soumission_chimique, mentions that some rape date drugs are also known as "drogue des prédateurs" or "drogue du cambriolage sexuel parfait" however I wouldn't recommend anyone to use 'cambriolage sexuel parfait' to translate date rape. Personally, I wouldn't even use 'drogue du cambriolage sexuel parfait' for date rape drug. Honestly, it just sound very insensitive considering the subject.

I found an article on GHB, from 1998, which state that: Ce produit, qui fait fureur aux Etats-Unis, a été surnommé là-bas « la drogue du cambriolage sexuel parfait ».
By back translating the phrase into English, I couldn't find any article that mentions this phrase. My guess is that the person who wrote the article read somewhere that this was a perfect drug for would-be rapists (as victims lose consciousness and may suffer from amnesia once they regain consciousness) and assumed it was a common nickname for the drug.


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## Budd

Yes, Alredy-Seen, I think you're right.  But if you Google "the perfect date rape drug" you will find several references. My guess is that it is used the way "a perfect storm" is used, i.e., perfect does not mean good or ideal (except perhaps with irony), but simply overwhelming.


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## franc 91

I suggest - un viol prémédité (as opposed to - un viol improvisé) - which are terms used in the courts.


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## Budd

I disagree, franc. A man can premeditate raping a woman he does not know personally, but has merely seen. Date rape occurs between two people who have agreed to spend time together (despite some earlier comments, they need not be _amoureux_); through force or drugs or some other way, the man rapes the woman; he may not have premeditated the rape until he actually begins. It's hard to be more specific, at least in an American context, because various courts in different jurisdictions define it differently.  See my post #29 above for the Wiki link, which clarifies nothing.


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## franc 91

Well with all the means now available - date rape can and does take place between people who don't know each other - though I agree it's not always the case. There are cases of girls being lured to a meeting arranged over the internet and as I have mentioned this is the term used - I'm not making it up.


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## Budd

Yes, franc.  But as I wrote a little while ago, date rape takes place with two people who have _agreed _to spend time together.  They can meet online, not really know each other, etc., but they have arranged a date.  Cf. blind dates, much older than online dating.


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## QBU

The confusion arrises due to the term "date" which means as was rightly said before both the person : un amoureux, un copain, un amant, un petit ami,  and the fact: un rendez-vous. Therefore it is impossible to translate it by one term only.
Un viol perpétré par un amoureux, un copain etc... or un viol perpétré lors d'un rendez-vous, depending on the context.


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## Budd

_un viol perpétré lors d'un rendez-vous_

Your phrase, hardly catchy, is a very good definition, the rendez-vous, the date, the agreed meeting being at the heart of it.  Good.


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## L'irlandais

Hi Budd,
I accept your point about_ "what's love got to do with it".  Love was used earlier in the discussion to try and make the context clearer for the francophones.  _However, I do have a question ;  if the guy turns up for a date with this drug in his possession, then surely (judicial definitions aside) some element of premeditation exists, right?


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## MarianaElSalvador

Date rape drugs are not only administered by a "date" but often by perfect strangers who have simply asked a girl/woman to dance, or to buy them a drink. It doesn't need to be a "date" or "rendez-vous" which is why I like the "cambriolage sexuel" phrasing.


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## Budd

Yup, L'irlandais, me boyo. Date rape can be premeditated (the guy has the drug in his pocket, for example) or spontaneous: I don't think there's any question about that. The one more or less common element is that, premeditation or no, the rape happens in the context of a date, casual or serious. The actual circumstances may vary so much that it is a very large umbrella and other than as a general semaphore or slightly (or lergely) ambiguous shorthand, it doesn't really tell you very much.

As for Mariana's point about a stranger slipping a girl a mickey in a bar, I guess that could also qualify, which gives further proof of just how elastic, i.e., imprecise, the phrase is.

If cambriolage sexuel is the accepted phrase, then there it is.  But since it means burglary, it strikes me as a little arch.  Of course, if you translate cambriolage as "break-in," there is a kind of smirky pun in there, no?


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