# All Slavic languages: Future tense to express events in the past.



## slavian1

Hallo everybody.

In Polish language there is a very strage grammatical construction, in which future tense is used to express a sudden event taking place in the past. The construction could be found in tales and when sombody is telling a story. 

I'm wondering if there are similar consturcions in other slavic languages?
(I heard that it is also used in Lithuanian - but it's not slavic )

Below I've attached an example but I'm not sure how it should be properly translated into English without losing its tone. (Mayby somebody has a clue)?

Example: "Wczoraj byłem w banku, gdy nagle weszło dwóch mężczyzn i jak nie zaczną strzelać ..."

Attempt of translation: Yesterday I had been in the bank when suddanly two men entered and unexpectedly started shooting...

byłem and weszło (past tense)
zaczną (future tense)


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## Athaulf

slavian1 said:


> In Polish language there is a very strage grammatical construction, in which future tense is used to express a sudden event taking place in the past. The construction could be found in tales and when sombody is telling a story.
> 
> I'm wondering if there are similar consturcions in other slavic languages?
> (I heard that it is also used in Lithuanian - but it's not slavic )
> 
> Below I've attached an expample but I'm not sure how it should be properly translated into English without losing its tone. (Mayby somebody has a clue)?
> 
> Example: "Wczoraj byłem w banku, gdy nagle weszło dwóch mężczyzn i jak nie zaczną strzelać ..."
> 
> Attempt of translation: Yesterday I had been in the bank when suddanly two men entered and unexpectedly started shooting...
> 
> byłem and weszło (past tense)
> zaczną (future tense)



Isn't this "future tense" actually the present tense of a perfective verb (in this case _zaczynać_, if I'm not mistaken)? If this is true, then I would expect that the same form of a perfective verb can also be used in other ways to describe non-future actions.


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## Anatoli

> ...
> "Wczoraj byłem w banku, gdy nagle weszło dwóch mężczyzn i jak nie zaczną strzelać ..."
> ...


Вчера я был в банке, куда вдруг вошли двое мужчин и как начнут стрелять.

I can confirm that the same feature exists in Russian. The blue verbs are in the past, the red one is in the future tense but expresses a sudden action.

I'll leave to others to comment. I am not sure what it's called.


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## dudasd

In Serbian it's a bit archaic, but it's present in literature and some provincial areas (when people are describing some event and want to emphasise the moment):

"Svi su posedali i zaćutali, kad će ti on odjednom skočiti."
Literally:
"Everyone sat down and fell silent, when he will jump up out of the blue"

The phrase "he/she will" - meaning "he/she will say" is very common in literature, because it's a good stylistic way to avoid repeating verbs like "to say", "to speak", "to reply" etc.:

"Hajdemo kući", reče ona.
"Ja bih radije ostao ovde" - na to će on.

Literally:
"Let's go home", she said.
"I would prefer to stay here" - he will at that.


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## Athaulf

dudasd said:


> In Serbian it's a bit archaic, but it's present in literature and some provincial areas (when people are describing some event and want to emphasise the moment):
> 
> "Svi su posedali i zaćutali, kad će ti on odjednom skočiti."
> Literally:
> "Everyone sat down and fell silent, when he will jump up out of the blue"



Actually, a more accurate parallel to the above examples from Polish and Russian would be the use of the present of perfective verbs for past actions. While in Polish and Russian the present tense is normally used to express future for perfective verbs in any context, in Serbian (and Croatian etc.), the use of such perfective present is restricted to one of its two  future tenses. For the other future tense, all verbs use the auxiliary verb _htjeti_ + infinitive. 

In different context, the present of perfective verbs can be used to express either past, present, or future. Here are some examples with the perfective verb _početi_ (_= to start_):

Future (dependent clauses): _Obećaj da me nećeš prekidati kad *počnem* govoriti! = Promise that you won't interrupt me when I *start *speaking!_

Present (repeated, habitual): _Kad god *počnem* govoriti, ti me prekidaš. = Whenever I *start *speaking, you interrupt me._

Past (narration): _Sastanak je krenuo odlično, kad odjednom, on *počne *pričati gluposti. = The meeting was going great, when suddenly he *started *talking nonsense._

The last example is characteristic of lively narration in spoken language, in which the speaker puts a lot of personal impressions and emotions. It wouldn't be considered as very good literary style.


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## dudasd

Anatoli said:


> I'll leave to others to comment. I am not sure what it's called.


 
It's called *modal use of tenses.* It would be a beautiful idea for a separate thread (for example, in Serbian at least 4 tenses have their modal use - future, present, perfect and aorist). But as this thread is about modal use of future in the function of past tense, I won't go further with it at the moment. 

To Althauf - only the third one of the examples you gave is real modal use (narrative present, replacing perfect or aorist). The first two examples belong to regular congruency of tenses. (Sorry for correcting you, but after all those great posts of yours I feel free to "chide" you.  )


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## Duya

dudasd said:


> But as this thread is about modal use of future in the function of past tense, I won't go further with it at the moment.



Athaulf's point, I believe, was that one can translate the Slavian's or Anatoli's original phrase word-by-word into Serbo-Croatian, and it will mean just the same. 

_Juče smo bili u banci, kad su u nju ušla dvojica muškaraca i *počnu *da pucaju._*)

The difference is merely taxonomic: we don't call the resulting form, *počnu*, a _future, _as it never has a pure future meaning, as it does in most other East and West Slavic languages. However, yes, it's sort of a "narrative" mood.

----
*) Doesn't sound good as translated literally like this: even in everyday language, either an aorist wouild likely be used here, or the "modal present" throughout; after all, they suddenly both entered and started shooting_:
Juče smo bili u banci; odjednom, u nju *uđu* dvojica muškaraca i *počnu *da pucaju._


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## Athaulf

Duya said:


> The difference is merely taxonomic: we don't call the resulting form, *počnu*, a _future, _as it never has a pure future meaning, as it does in most other East and West Slavic languages.



However, I'm now confused: can the present of a perfective verb in East Slavic languages be used for repeated/habitual  completed actions, as it can in South Slavic languages? 

For example, suppose you want to say in Croatian:

_Every time I see him, I *start*__ laughing. _

The latter verb would definitely be perfective:

_Svaki put kad ga vidim, *počnem* se smijati. _

Could a Russian speaker please clarify if it's possible to say something analogous in Russian:

_Каждый раз когда я вижу его, я *начну *смеяться. 
_
If not, what would be the correct way to translate the above sentence into Russian?


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## talmid

091107                       0140

Hi!

I am not a native Russian speaker, so I could be mistaken, but I believe that in the phrase you cited:

Каждый раз когда я вижу его, я начну смеяться.

one might find that the preferred usage might perhaps  be   я начинаю               (instead of : я начну)

But, I repeat that this is just my idea & I may be wrong

Best wishes


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## Maroseika

Athaulf said:


> Could a Russian speaker please clarify if it's possible to say something analogous in Russian:
> 
> _Каждый раз когда я вижу его, я *начну *смеяться. _
> 
> If not, what would be the correct way to translate the above sentence into Russian?


Talmid is right, future tense is impossible here - only present one.


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## slavian1

> Originally Posted by *Athaulf*
> 
> Could a Russian speaker please clarify if it's possible to say something analogous in Russian:
> 
> _Каждый раз когда я вижу его, я *начну *смеяться. _
> 
> If not, what would be the correct way to translate the above sentence into Russian?


 



> Talmid is right, future tense is impossible here - only present one.


 
The same is in Polish - only present is appropriate.

_Za ka¿dym razem, kiedy go widzê, *zaczynam* siê œmiaæ._


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## cajzl

It is strange.

In Czech both variants are possible, but the meaning is different (common perf./imperf. difference).

*Kdykoli ho vidím, začnu se smát.*
*Kdykoli ho vidím, začínám se smát.*

The difference is not so obvious in the case of the verbs _začíti/začínati_, but take in account the following modified example:

*Kdykoli ho vidím, zasměji se. *(perf.)
*Kdykoli ho vidím, směji se.* (imperf.)

Do you want to say that Russian and Polish do not distinguish such differences.

I think that _zasměji se (perf.) _in the first sentence is not the true future tense. Rather it expresses a one-time action aside of tenses.


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## tkekte

Nope, in Russian the aspect of both verbs has to match.

вижу - начинаю - смеюсь
увижу - начну - засмеюсь

Как его вижу, то смеюсь. - Whenever I see him, I laugh.
Как его увижу, то засмеюсь. - When I will (get to) see him, I will laugh.

But it's also possible to say
Каждый раз смеюсь, как его увижу. - I laugh every time when I see him.

In this case the aspects don't match, and I'm not sure what this kind of clause is called.

And there is two ways to say "I laugh every time I remember it".
1. using когда (cz:kdy) + imperefective
Каждый раз смеюсь, когда это вспоминаю.

2. using как (cz:jak) + perfective
Каждый раз смеюсь, как это вспомню.

Why does one pronoun take the perf. while another takes the imperf? Go figure. #.#


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## slavian1

tkekte said:


> Nope, in Russian the aspect of both verbs has to match.
> 
> вижу - начинаю - смеюсь
> увижу - начну - засмеюсь
> 
> Как его вижу, то смеюсь. - Whenever I see him, I laugh.
> Jak jego widzę, to śmieję się.
> 
> Как его увижу, то засмеюсь. - When I will (get to) see him, I will laugh.
> Jak jego zobaczę, to się zaśmieję.
> 
> But it's also possible to say
> Каждый раз смеюсь, как его увижу. - I laugh every time when I see him.
> Za każdym razem śmieję się, jak go zobaczę. _(Well, it sounds a little bit strange, but it's acceptable). _
> but
> Jak tylko go zobaczę, zaraz się śmieję - _Perfectly fine in Polish_
> (As only I will see him, I start laughing at once).
> 
> In this case the aspects don't match, and I'm not sure what this kind of clause is called.
> 
> And there is two ways to say "I laugh every time I remember it".
> 1. using когда (cz:kdy) + imperefective
> Каждый раз смеюсь, когда это вспоминаю.
> 
> 2. using как (cz:jak) + perfective
> Каждый раз смеюсь, как это вспомню.
> 
> Why does one pronoun take the perf. while another takes the imperf? Go figure. #.#


 
I'm really impresed. In Polish are exactly the same rules as in Russian.

To cajzl:

According to the main topic of this thread, do exist in Czech correspondig constructions using futer tense to express sudden actions in the past?


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## Athaulf

cajzl said:


> In Czech both variants are possible, but the meaning is different (common perf./imperf. difference).
> 
> *Kdykoli ho vidím, začnu se smát.*
> *Kdykoli ho vidím, začínám se smát.*
> 
> The difference is not so obvious in the case of the verbs _začíti/začínati_, but take in account the following modified example:
> 
> *Kdykoli ho vidím, zasměji se. *(perf.)
> *Kdykoli ho vidím, směji se.* (imperf.)



If I'm decoding these Czech sentences correctly, this is exactly how it works in Croatian:

(1) _Kad god ga vidim, nasmijem se. 
_(2) _Kad god ga vidim, smijem se. _

With (1), you say that whenever you see him, it makes you start laughing, whereas with (2), you say that whenever you see him, you are always laughing, for whatever (possibly unrelated) reason.


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## cajzl

_Polish_ - "Wczoraj *byłem* w banku, gdy nagle *weszło* dwóch mężczyzn i jak nie *zaczną* strzelać ..."

_Czech -_ "Včera *jsem byl* v bance, když náhle *vešli* dva muži a _v tom co se nestane_, *začnou* střílet."
"Včera *jsem byl* v bance, když náhle *vešli* dva muži a _v tom, co čert nechtěl_, *začnou* střílet."
"Včera *jsem byl* v bance, když náhle *vešli* dva muži a _v tom vám, teď se podržte_, *začnou* střílet."

_Incorrect ---_ "Včera *jsem byl* v bance, když náhle *vešli* dva muži a *začnou* střílet."

In Czech it is possible in a lively narration but usually some transition phrase is required to separate the past and future tenses.


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## maxl

I noticed an interesting difference between the Polish sentence and the Russian one. The Polish in Slavian1's original question had an extra negation, which isn't really negating, but part of the expression of surprise and suddenness.  

"Example: "Wczoraj byłem w banku, gdy nagle weszło dwóch mężczyzn i jak nie zaczną strzelać ..."

Attempt of translation: Yesterday I had been in the bank when suddanly two men entered and unexpectedly started shooting..."

Is this possible in Russian too?  Can you say e.g.:
Вчера я был в банке, куда вдруг вошли двое мужчин и как *не* начнут стрелять.

The turn occurs in Yiddish too, obviously another instance of Slavic influence. But there the tense becomes not  future but simply  present. 
I'd be most grateful for any info on the possibilities in Russian, as well as in other Slavic languages.




Anatoli said:


> Вчера я был в банке, куда вдруг вошли двое мужчин и как начнут стрелять.
> 
> I can confirm that the same feature exists in Russian. The blue verbs are in the past, the red one is in the future tense but expresses a sudden action.
> 
> I'll leave to others to comment. I am not sure what it's called.


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