# Aramaic: קרתא



## rushalaim

_Aramaic_ *קרתא* looks like _Russian_ _"gorod"_ or _Slavic "grad"_. Is it coincidence that sounding and sense are similar?


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## inquisitiveness1

rushalaim said:


> _Aramaic_ *קרתא* looks like _Russian_ _"gorod"_ or _Slavic "grad"_. Is it coincidence that sounding and sense are similar?


I am pretty sure it is just a cognate to Arabic قرية _qaryaẗ _"village", Hebrew קריה _qiryā _"town; city", and Phoenician _qrt _"city". The root is *qr or *qry and the תא at the end is just the Aramaic feminine ending, so certainly not a word of Slavic origin.

Or did I misunderstand your intent and you meant to suggest that maybe the Aramaic was loaned into Slavic somehow? If so, I beleive there is already a suitable IE derivation for the Slavic word available.


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## rushalaim

inquisitiveness1 said:


> I am pretty sure it is just a cognate to Arabic قرية _qaryaẗ _"village", Hebrew קריה _qiryā _"town; city", and Phoenician _qrt _"city". The root is *qr or *qry and the תא at the end is just the Aramaic feminine ending, so certainly not a word of Slavic origin.
> Or did I misunderstand your intent and you meant to suggest that maybe the Aramaic was loaned into Slavic somehow? If so, I beleive there is already a suitable IE derivation for the Slavic word available.


I guess _Aramaic_ קרתא _"city"_ derived from the root *קר* . _Aramaic_ קרתא but _Hebrew_ עיר perhaps from קיר _"walled city"_ or _"capital"_.
Russian _"grad"_ derived from _"gorodit";_ _"to wall a city"_.
It's strange, but _Aramaic_ קרתא and Russian _"gorod"_ have the same sounding and meaning.


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## berndf

The root meaning of _*qr_, West Semitic _*qry_, is _to meet_. I.e. _QRT_- (Hebrew קריה, Arabic قرية, Aramaic קריתא) is _a place where people meet_. No semantic to Slavic _*gordъ_. The possible PIE root concept is _*ǵʰer = enclose_. Apart from the semantic difference, an equivalence of PIE _ǵʰ_ or _gʰ _with _q _would not be easy to justify, if you believe in Nostratic reconstruction (if!).

It is very implausible that עיר should in any way be etymologically related to קריה. An exchange of ע and ק would be very difficult to defend, especially as a first radical. They are just too different.


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## fdb

berndf said:


> The root meaning of _*qr_, West Semitic _*qry_, is _to meet_. I.e. _QRT_- (Hebrew קריה, Arabic قرية, Aramaic קרתא)



Unless it is a loan word from Akkadian qarītu, qirītu “storehouse, granary” > Aramaic qrītā (sic recte) “town, field, property” > Arabic qaryatun and so forth.


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## berndf

fdb said:


> Akkadian qarītu


That would have the same base base meaning _*qr = to meet > to collect/assemble_, wouldn't it?


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## rushalaim

berndf said:


> It is very implausible that עיר should in any way be etymologically related to קריה. An exchange of ע and ק would be very difficult to defend, especially as a first radical. They are just too different.


Though someone renamed the topic, but _Aramaic_ books use *קרתא* spelling, and _Phoenician_ *קרת* .
I think, _Aramaic_ *קיר* is deep-throat sound, and _Hebrew_ *עיר* is guttural. But hear how Arabs pronounce it! Besides, _Hebrew_ *עזה* or *עמרה* Septuagint pronounces like _"*G*aza"_ or _"*G*omorra"_ with [_ng_]-sound, and _Hebrew_ *רבע* Septuagint pronounces like _"Robo*k*"_!

*Moderator note: Thread title had been changed to קריתא by moderator assuming  was a typo. This change has been reverted.*


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## berndf

rushalaim said:


> _Aramaic_ books use *קרתא* spelling


_*קרתא* _means _cold_.


rushalaim said:


> I think, _Aramaic_ *קיר* is deep-throat sound, and _Hebrew_ *עיר* is guttural. But hear how Arabs pronounce it!


In Palestinian Arab dialect, *קיר* might be pronounced like a modern Israeli would pronounce *עיר* (except that the Arabic and Modern Israeli Hebrew _r_ is different) but this is because both pronounce it like *איר* but that has nothing to do with historical Hebrew. The modern Hebrew merger of *ע* and *א* is caused by European influence on modern Hebrew in the Diaspora.


rushalaim said:


> _Hebrew_ *עזה* or *עמרה* Septuagint pronounces like _"*G*aza"_ or _"*G*omorra"_


No. There is no _G _in _Ghazzah_. _Gaza _is a Western (mis-)spelling. This is how it sounds in Arabic and that was also the original pronunciation in Hebrew before Gh and ע merged.


rushalaim said:


> with [_ng_]-sound


No.


rushalaim said:


> and _Hebrew_ *רבע* Septuagint pronounces like _"Robo*k*"_


In Joshua 13:21 the name is transliterated ροβε in the Septuagint I don't know where you got this from.


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## origumi

Also Moabite "qr" and "qryt", as appears in the Mesha Stele.


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## rushalaim

berndf said:


> _*קרתא* _means _cold_.


The fact is that Aramaic uses *קרתא *spelling.


berndf said:


> In Palestinian Arab dialect, *קיר* might be pronounced like a modern Israeli would pronounce *עיר*


Some Arabs pronounce *קיר *like [_*g*ir_].


berndf said:


> No. There is no _G _in _Ghazzah_. _Gaza _is a Western (mis-)spelling.


Septuagint pronounces it with [_ng_]-sound like _"*G*azan"_ and _"*G*omorras"_ in Genesis 10:19.


berndf said:


> In Joshua 13:21 the name is transliterated ροβε in the Septuagint I don't know where you got this from.


It's not Septuagint you've mentioned.
Septuagint pronounces *רבע *like _"Robo*k*"_ in Numbers 31:8.


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## fdb

berndf said:


> That would have the same base base meaning _*qr = to meet > to collect/assemble_, wouldn't it?



Possible, though the root q-r-y does not seem to occur in this meaning in Akkadian. There is qerû “to invite”, like Arabic qarā “to receive hospitably”.


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## berndf

rushalaim said:


> It's not Septuagint you've mentioned.
> Septuagint pronounces *רבע *like _"Robo*k*"_ in Numbers 31:8.


Yes it is. The different spellings at different places only show that the translators struggled to represent a sound that is alien to Greek, noting else.


rushalaim said:


> Septuagint pronounces it with [_ng_]-sound like _"*G*azan"_ and _"*G*omorras"_ in Genesis 10:19.


The septuagint pronounces nothing, it is a book and books _spell_. The spelling used there is γάζαν. The classical pronunciation of the letter γ is [g] and the modern pronunciation in front of [a] is [ɣ], like the modern Arabic pronunciation I linked to. The generally accepted assumption is that at the time the LXX was written, the merger between [ɣ] and [ʕ] was not yet fully completed in Hebrew although they had only one letter to spell both sounds. Arabic still has the distinction. There they are spelled غ and ع, the former being the sound in _Ghazzah_.

All this has absolutely nothing to do with the emphatic k, ק. It is an emphatic stop and ע is voiced fricative, independently of whether it represents غ or ع.



rushalaim said:


> Some Arabs pronounce *קיר *like [_*g*ir_].


There are Arab dialects that pronounceق as [G] but not as [g].  The difference is important in Semitic languages. Again, this has nothing to do with either غ or ع.


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## origumi

fdb said:


> Possible, though the root q-r-y does not seem to occur in this meaning in Akkadian. There is qerû “to invite”, like Arabic qarā “to receive hospitably”.


Akkadian qerû is of root qr', not qry.


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## fdb

origumi said:


> Akkadian qerû is of root qr', not qry.



I think Akk. qerû “to invite” could be either from q-r-ʼ “to call” or from q-r-y “to be hospitable” (see further down on the same page). In any event, they would have merged in Akkadian. Semantically, neither root gives a very good match with qarītu “storehouse”. I am keeping an open mind.


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## berndf

rushalaim said:


> The fact is that Aramaic uses *קרתא *spelling.


My mistake. Both words exist. <...>


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## rushalaim

fdb said:


> I think Akk. qerû “to invite” could be either from q-r-ʼ “to call” or from q-r-y “to be hospitable” (see further down on the same page). In any event, they would have merged in Akkadian. Semantically, neither root gives a very good match with qarītu “storehouse”. I am keeping an open mind.


Do you mean two _Hebrew_ verbs: קרא _"to call"_ and קרה _"to happen"_? I think both verbs have the common root *קר* . 
Late _Hebrew "Hebron"_ is Canaan's walled-capital קרית ארבע


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## origumi

berndf said:


> The root meaning of _*qr_, West Semitic _*qry_, is _to meet_.


As already suggested above, another explanation is possible: Hebrew has the words qir = wall, qora = beam (of a structure), tiqra = ceiling, q-r-y = to cover. So qr/qry/qryt/qrt = town/city may have originally referred to the walls (of buildings or around the city) or the collection of buildings (in the city).


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## fdb

rushalaim said:


> The fact is that Aramaic uses *קרתא *spelling.



By far the most common spelling is qrytʼ in Eastern Aramaic and qryth in Western Aramaic. qrtʼ is rare, and is probably only a “defective” spelling, that is: qrītā without indicating the long /ī/ in writing.


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## berndf

fdb said:


> qrtʼ is rare, and is probably only a “defective” spelling, that is: qrītā without indicating the long /ī/ in writing.


Do you then think that the pronunciation qrt'=qarta (with the meaning town rather than cold) that you encounter in modern Israel (e.g.* נטורי קרתא*) is a mistake?


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## fdb

qrth or qrtʼ in Targum Ps.-Onqelos and Talm. Yer. looks like an Aramaicised version of Hebrew qèrèt.


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## origumi

fdb said:


> By far the most common spelling is qrytʼ in Eastern Aramaic and qryth in Western Aramaic. qrtʼ is rare, and is probably only a “defective” spelling, that is: qrītā without indicating the long /ī/ in writing.





> qrth or qrtʼ in Targum Ps.-Onqelos and Talm. Yer. looks like an Aramaicised version of Hebrew qèrèt.


Searching in Wikisource over Talmud Babli & Yerushalmi, Targum Unqelos & Yonatan & Yerushalmi - קרתא qrt' is more frequent than other alternatives:

Aramaic instances:
* קרתא qrt' shows 188 results
* קרתה qrth shows 12
* קריתא qryt' shows 23
* קריתה qryth shows 3

Hebrew instances (irrelevant to this thread):
* קריה shows 259
* קרת shows 102

So it seems that in Judeo-Aramaic קרתא qrt' is the spelling of choice.

This is not scientific of course - I don't know how accurate Wikisource is, there are some repeated results, didn't look for plurals, prefixed words or declensions. Also, the search may include some other sources, but their results number looks negligible.


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## fdb

I do not have access to Sokoloff's dictionaries at the moment, but will check them when I can. My impression is that qrth, qrtʼ is *Western *Aramaic (e.g. Talm. Y.), qrytʼ is *Eastern *Aramaic (Talm. Bab., Syriac). In Syriac (the best attested Aramaic language) there is only qrytʼ (vocalised qrītā), never qrtʼ.

Since the time of Kutscher, Semitists do not use the term Judaeo-Aramaic. Jewish Aramaic texts are written in several different languages/dialects.


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## berndf

origumi said:


> Searching in Wikisource over Talmud Babli & Yerushalmi, Targum Unqelos & Yonatan & Yerushalmi - קרתא qrt' is more frequent than other alternatives:
> 
> Aramaic instances:
> * קרתא qrt' shows 188 results


Are you sure in none of these instances קרתא means _cold_?


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## origumi

berndf said:


> Are you sure in none of these instances קרתא means _cold_?


I examined the first 40 results - all of them are קרתא = _city, town_. So קרתא = _cold_ is probably rare.

_Cold_ = קרירא, קורא are commonly used words.


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## momai

origumi said:


> I examined the first 40 results - all of them are קרתא = _city, town_. So קרתא = _cold_ is probably rare.
> 
> _Cold_ = קרירא, קורא are commonly used words.


Arabic has also _qaaris_ (very cold),but I don't know if it's related.
As for the root qr ,Arabic has got a lot of derivatives of this root.
Some examples:
'istaqarra =to settle down
'istiqraar-on =stability
maqarr-on= Headquarters
qaarra-ton=continent
and of coarse qarya-ton
...
..
.


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## rushalaim

קרת חדשת 
Ancient Carthage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Cartagena, Spain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## berndf

rushalaim said:


> קרת חדשת
> Ancient Carthage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Cartagena, Spain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


And?


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## fdb

In case anyone missed the point: the Carthaginians spoke and wrote in Punic, not Aramaic.


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## berndf

fdb said:


> Punic


... which is based on Phoenician and Phoenician _qrt_ was already mentioned in #2.


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