# Do you call the UK the 'United Kingdom' in your country/language?



## invictaspirit

I was debating with another member the variety of ways of naming the UK around the world.  Most people in everyday situations and conversations still frequently refer to the UK as 'England'.  Do you?  And what does your country's news media do?  For example, the Spanish media are usually very correct in referring to the _Reino Unido_.  But not many Spanish people would say that in normal conversation, in my experience.

What name is most common in the press and on TV?


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## LouisaB

I would personally say 'England', and my brother-in-law, who is from Edinburgh would unhesitatingly say 'Scotland'.

However, the general rule at the BBC (where I used to work) is to say 'Britain', and 'British' wherever possible in order to encourage unity. Thus '3 British casualties in a plane crash' even if all of them were from England. 

I do, however, say I'm from 'the UK' when the people I'm speaking to may include those less familiar with our geographical and political complexities. That's what I've said in my profile for this forum, for instance....!

LouisaB


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## Grekh

En México se utiliza más Inglaterra, pero también es común oír decir "Reino Unido"


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## jazyk

Inglaterra is what is normally used in Brazil, but if one wants to be (and knows how to be politically correct), he'll say Reino Unido.


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## Life

I say *Reino Unido* or *Las islas británicas* or *Gran bretaña* (if I'm excluding *Ireland*). But most people say *Inglaterra*, and some aren't even aware of the existence of a country called Wales. 
I think the media use *Reino Unido*, and *británicos* when referring to the people.


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## Tsoman

Most people here prefer to say "Britain" or "England" instead of saying "United Kingdom"


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## Heba

The Media refers to Britian as *بريطانيا* (Britania).
I think that most people here use either Britain or England when thinking of or referring to the British Islands.


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## .   1

I can't comment on the media as I try as hard as I can to avoid them.
Everybody I know is well aware of the differences between England and Wales and Scotland and The United Kingdom is seldom used.  We would never dream of confusing Ireland with any of the preceeding terms.

.,,


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## maxiogee

Irish tends to refer to it as Britain.
I just had a look at my old (1959) English/Irish dictionary and found that it wasn't listed as a derivative at United, which gave United States and United Nations, but it did manage to get in as a derivative of Kingdom.


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## Etcetera

In Russia, we usually call the country Великобритания (Great Britain) or even Англия (England). I suspect that for an average Russian there's hardly any difference between Great Britain and England - sorry, dear English!
However, Соединенное Королевство (United Kingdom) is also used, and it was only yesterday that I came over the use of this name in a translation of Sabatini's novel. But it sounds pretty formal.


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## invictaspirit

Etcetera said:


> In Russia, we usually call the country Великобритания (Great Britain) or even Англия (England). I suspect that for an average Russian there's hardly any difference between Great Britain and England - sorry, dear English!
> However, Соединенное Королевство (United Kingdom) is also used, and it was only yesterday that I came over the use of this name in a translation of Sabatini's novel. But it sounds pretty formal.


 
It's "sorry dear Welsh and Scottish".    I am English and if you call all of GB England that's fine by me.    Hehe...but no, it isn't really fine.  I'm standing up for the other Brits.

Of course, all of this is our fault for having a confusing name and complex nation.  It interests me because some countries are (in an official and media sense) very correct and seem to think about it more.  Most North Europeans, for example.  Also Spain.  The worst is France, where Scotland and Wales are very frequently ignored by the French president, government and often the media too.  You certainly see _Royaume Uni _in the French press, as well as _britannique.  _It's not as if they don't do it.  But the French are the most likely to slip back into using the word _anglais.  _Chirac, for example, does it all the time, and frequently talks about the _gouvernement anglais_.


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## invictaspirit

Tsoman said:


> Most people here prefer to say "Britain" or "England" instead of saying "United Kingdom"


 
Sure, but in my experience the US media get it right.  You never hear of the 'English government' or the 'English military did yadda yadda in Afghanistan' in the US media.  I'd say the US media was one of the best in this respect.  It's always 'British', 'UK' etc.


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## Etcetera

Interestingly enogh, for some reasons it's британское посольство (British embassy), Британский совет (British council), британский характер (British character), but английская королева (English queen).


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## Setwale_Charm

Etcetera said:


> However, Соединенное Королевство (United Kingdom) is also used, and it was only yesterday that I came over the use of this name in a translation of Sabatini's novel. But it sounds pretty formal.


 

 It is used in political coverage as well. And it is becoming more and more popular, probably due to the growing number of direct contacts between the RF and the UK.

  I have always been living abroad and for the first 20 years of my life I would undoubtedly refer to my motherland as "Britain" and myself as "British". However, in the more recent years I have been either saying "the UK" or even been hesitant about what to say. My, do I now have the right to call myself British? That`s an interesting idea, by the way. 
  Etcetera is quite right. In Russia anything or anyone British is often directly assumed to be English. I have even seen my own name often mentioned as that of "an English demographer", assumed to be such upon the mere mention of Oxford University. But, in fact, I could be anybody!


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## Setwale_Charm

Etcetera said:


> Interestingly enogh, for some reasons it's британское посольство (British embassy), Британский совет (British council), британский характер (British character), but английская королева (English queen).


 

Yes, the subtle reflection of the peculiarity of perceptions on behalf of other nations. 

The publishers were quite surprised when I stubbornly kept referring to her as "королева Великобритании" in my articles. But it is only quite natural that they should not be acquainted with these sensitivities. Come, she is in reality German anyway!


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## Hakro

In Finnish we say most often England. (Great) Britain comes far behind and United Kingdom is quite rare. I googled the Finnish names:

Englanti: 4,5 million hits
Iso-Britannia: 1,070,000 hits (plus about 100,000 for Britannia)
Yhdistynyt kuningaskunta: 300,000 hits

United Kingdom is practically never used in everyday talk.


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## Lusitania

In Portugal it's common to hear Grã-Bretanha and Inglaterra but also Reino Unido.


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## invictaspirit

There are very few 'rules' to this.  You know how we like to keep you foreigners guessing.  

I would say the following could be treated as hard and fast rules:

1. Institutions that are clearly centralised, national and equally govern all parts of the UK should be called 'British'. Therefore: British embassy, British government, British Army, British TV networks, British monarchy, the British telephone system etc etc In other words, anything that is shared and is the same in the Shetland Islands or Cornwall is correctly called British.

2. Companies and corporations, as above, tend to have an all-UK if not global reach, therefore it is more often correct to speak of British companies. The Royal Bank of Scotland, for example, is headquartered in Scotland, but is a huge presence all over the UK and beyond and is listed in London. It is therefore not really correct to call it a Scottish company.

3. In a strictly political/diplomatic sense, citizens are only ever British. The passport is the same whether or not you live in England, Wales, Scotland or NI. The official nationality and citizenship are British only.

4. In foreign relations and diplomacy, the word British should always be used. It is the UK that is a member of the EU, UN, NATO, G8 etc etc. England, Scotland etc have no seperate diplomatic representation.

5. There is absolutely no such thing as a 'British accent'. The speech and pronunciation of Scots is as different from that of Londoners as is Standard American. There isn't even such a thing as an 'English accent' either. Accents of English within England are radically and substantially different from one another. We can talk with some degree of accuracy about BrE as distinct from other variants of English in terms of grammar and often vocabulary. But when it comes to accents and phonetics it is just plain wrong.

Grey areas that are open to interpretation and debate:

1. I would never say 'British weather' or 'British climate'. It varies too much over the 1000 plus km. I live in the extreme south-east of England and it would be fair to say the climate here is totally different to the North of Scotland. It is much sunnier, much drier and much warmer and can not be compared, really.

2. The hard part that confuses non-Brits the most. My passport says 'British Citizen' under Nationality. But if you ask me where I am from, I will always say England and always describe myself as English. That is a matter of choice which we all exercise. It's because I identify more with the idea of England than of all of the UK. I don't renounce, dislike or reject my official staus as a Briton or British Citizen...it's just that I feel Englishness is about identity and culture and Britishness is about the state, government, officialdom. Millions and millions of Brits feel the same way and go around the world confusing people by telling them that they are English or Scottish or whatever and then saying that they are also British.

3. It's pretty difficult to speak of 'the British character'. Stereotypically, Scots, English and Welsh are totally different in character. I think there are cultural and social links of course...there are characteristics that we all share...but there are others that divide us greatly.

4. You can't talk of 'British Literature' in an historical sense, in my view. Many aspects of the literature of the constituent nations of the UK are totally independent of each other and are entirely about, of and regarding one particular British nation. 

5. Culture is a really grey area. All of the UK watches more or less the same TV output, listens to the same music, reads the same best-seller novels. Comedians, bands, art exhibitions, circuses, plays, operas tour the whole UK. Therefore, there is a great deal that is shared and therefore 'British'. Overlaying that are large chunks of culture and ways of doing things that are specifically Welsh or English or Scottish. When thinking about '80s music, you could argue with some validity that The Jam were an English band and Duran Duran were a British one, yet both bands come from England. Their style, preoccupations, lyrics etc might affect a perception of their identity.

These things tend to be flexible and changeable. I use the adjective English a lot, and often talk of 'the English' or 'English people' but I'm usually only thinking of England when I do that. Whenever I go to Scotland, I am always struck by the differences there and it often feels like another country. I'm not always happy speaking on behalf of Scots by blanekt use of the term 'British' or 'Brits' when describing habits and so on.

People will disagree with some of the above, which of course is why it's all so confusing.


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## Kajjo

Germans say "England" in everyday life, even if almost everyone is aware it should be "Großbritannien". Officially and in the news it is called "Großbritannien".

Kajjo


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## Fernando

In Spain, the common terms are either "Gran Bretaña" or "Inglaterra". "Reino Unido" is used only in media and for formal uses. Spain has had political and economic relation mostly with England from the Middle Ages. Our relation with Scotland has been only as a part of UK, so UK has "inherited" the term for England (Inglaterra).


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## Etcetera

Thank you for your post, Invictaspirit.



invictaspirit said:


> 1. Institutions that are clearly centralised, national and equally govern all parts of the UK should be called 'British'. Therefore: British embassy, British government, British Army, British TV networks, British monarchy, the British telephone system etc etc In other words, anything that is shared and is the same in the Shetland Islands or Cornwall is correctly called British.


About British monarchy. I've thought for a couple of minute, but I could hardly remember seeing anything like британская монархия - it's always английская монархия. It's really odd.



> 5. There is absolutely no such thing as a 'British accent'. The speech and pronunciation of Scots is as different from that of Londoners as is Standard American. There isn't even such a thing as an 'English accent' either. Accents of English within England are radically and substantially different from one another. We can talk with some degree of accuracy about BrE as distinct from other variants of English in terms of grammar and often vocabulary. But when it comes to accents and phonetics it is just plain wrong.


We sometimes speak about английское произношение (the English pronunciation), by which we mean RP. I guess calling RP so is, well, a bit incorrect. 



> 4. You can't talk of 'British Literature' in an historical sense, in my view. Many aspects of the literature of the constituent nations of the UK are totally independent of each other and are entirely about, of and regarding one particular British nation.


Here I agree completely. I myself am a future specialist in English literature. Moreover, my speciality is called "The English language, literature and culture". Scottish Gaelic, Irish, Welsh are considered to be absolutely separate issues. 
(I'm not sure about how to put the last idea correctly. Please tell me if there's some more 'English'  way to say it).


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## LV4-26

invictaspirit said:


> [...]it's just that I feel Englishness is about identity and culture and Britishness is about the state, government, officialdom. Millions and millions of Brits feel the same way and go around the world confusing people by telling them that they are English or Scottish or whatever and then saying that they are also British.[...]


Are you sure they all feel the same way? Is Britishness never ever about culture, values, identity? What if you ask an Englishman "are you British?"
I did. He smiled and answered humouroulsy *"I try to be*".
Actually, I don't know why I didn't ask "are you English?". I realized only afterwards that, thus worded, my question was a bit silly.
I interpreted his answer as meaning  something like "It's an ideal I'm trying to reach", but with a good deal of irony in it.

Now for the main question. In France, it's true that we mostly say "l'Angleterre". The journalists sometimes use "Le Royaume Uni". 

However, if we're going somewhere in the British Isles (on  holidays, for example), we do say "Je vais en Ecosse/en Irlande". But you rarely hear people here say "Je vais au Pays de Galles". Now, I couldn't say whether it's because they confuse Wales with England or because they never go to Wales.


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## lampiao

As Lusitania has said, it is common to hear "Reino Unido" (UK) and "Grã-Bretanha" (GB), mostly on the media.
The common people, however, will most often say "Inglaterra" or "Inglês" even though there is a pretty good awareness of the existance of Wales and Scotland, their differences, and roughly their location. I believe that most people would not confuse Edinbourgh, Glasgow or Cardiff for English cities.
I confess I often use England where UK or Britain should be applied. 
That's pretty much the same with Holland and the Netherlands. In portuguese the country's name is Holanda, even though Holland is just a part of the Netherlands... Hardly ever is that country refered to as "Países Baixos".


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## invictaspirit

LV4-26 said:


> Are you sure they all feel the same way? Is Britishness never ever about culture, values, identity? What if you ask an Englishman "are you British?"
> I did. He smiled and answered humouroulsy *"I try to be*".
> Actually, I don't know why I didn't ask "are you English?". I realized only afterwards that, thus worded, my question was a bit silly.
> I interpreted his answer as meaning something like "It's an ideal I'm trying to reach", but with a good deal of irony in it.
> 
> Now for the main question. In France, it's true that we mostly say "l'Angleterre". The journalists sometimes use "Le Royaume Uni".
> 
> However, if we're going somewhere in the British Isles (on holidays, for example), we do say "Je vais en Ecosse/en Irlande". But you rarely hear people here say "Je vais au Pays de Galles". Now, I couldn't say whether it's because they confuse Wales with England or because they never go to Wales.


 
No, of course they don't all feel the same way. That was the point of my post, but maybe I wasn't too clear. My 'millions and millions' feel the way I said is not a metaphor for all. Many millions identify most with Britishness, many millions identify more with their 'home nation' instead, some of us identify equally with both. They're always doing polls about this and the results vary...I wouldn't bother to quote percentages to you. It's something that is personal, maleable and flexible.

I'm not sure precisely what your Englishman meant.  Sounds like a joke/irony, as you suggest, along the lines you suggest.


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## Hakro

For Finnish, see #16.

The official name "Yhdistynyt kuningaskunta" would be too long for everyday use. And we can't use abbreviations, neither UK (confusion with our former president called UKK) nor YK (means United Nations in Finnish).


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## don maico

invictaspirit said:


> I was debating with another member the variety of ways of naming the UK around the world.  Most people in everyday situations and conversations still frequently refer to the UK as 'England'.  Do you?  And what does your country's news media do?  For example, the Spanish media are usually very correct in referring to the _Reino Unido_.  But not many Spanish people would say that in normal conversation, in my experience.
> 
> What name is most common in the press and on TV?



I n deference to the Scots Welsh and Northern Irish you should say United Kingdom ( or UK for short will suffice)as they really dont like being confused for the English - they are really quite proud of their seperate identity far more so than the English who for centuries have hidden their Englishness beneath the cloak of Britishness, although in more recent imes we have seen a steady rise of rather more English nationalsitic sentiments which are rather worrying.I think of myself as first an Englishman and then a Brit and the Union flag is my flag( despite the avatar )
Would the Spanish say britanicos?


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## don maico

Life said:


> I say *Reino Unido* or *Las islas británicas* or *Gran bretaña* (if I'm excluding *Ireland*). But most people say *Inglaterra*, and some aren't even aware of the existence of a country called Wales.
> I think the media use *Reino Unido*, and *británicos* when referring to the people.


The Argentines refer to las invasiones inglesas when in fact they should've been called las invasiones britanicas given that Beresford and many under his command were Irish( as well as Welsh and Scottish)


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## Lusitania

In Portugal, we never say "britânicos" for british, usually only in the media. We always say "ingleses" as english.


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## Frank06

Hi,
In *Dutch
*In an 'official context' it's _Verenigd Koninkrijk_ (United Kingdom) or _Groot- Brittannië_.I think most people _are_ aware of the differences between _Engeland_, _Wales_, _Schotland_ and _Noord-Ierland_, but once in a while, rather rarely, one uses  _Engeland_ for all of them. Just an impression, but I guess the awareness of the differences has a bit to do with the popularity of (international) soccer competitions over here .

Groetjes,

Frank


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## Alxmrphi

I wouldn't say "United Kingdom" if it means we are associated with those Kilty-Scots, Drunken Irish and the Smelly Welsh

Just kidding, I wouldn't say "United Kingdom" because it's a bit pretentious to me, I like "England", though I would say "Britian" in some cases, ones that I can't really think of now I just know I would.

I think it'd be nice if we all called it the United Kingdom more often.
It annoys me when people make sure a big deal about England being different from Scotland (about Gordon Brown not being an English Patriot) etc.


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## maxiogee

Etcetera said:


> Interestingly enogh, for some reasons it's британское посольство (British embassy), Британский совет (British council), британский характер (British character), but английская королева (English queen)



Probably because a brass plate engraved with "The embassy of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" would probably be too wide to fit on the door. 




invictaspirit said:


> Grey areas that are open to interpretation and debate:
> 
> 4. You can't talk of 'British Literature' in an historical sense, in my view. Many aspects of the literature of the constituent nations of the UK are totally independent of each other and are entirely about, of and regarding one particular British nation.



And yet most people would lump Robert Burns, George Bernard Shaw and Dylan Thomas in with William Shakespeare and Geoffrey Chaucer under the heading of _English Literature_ - subsuming nationality into language! 

Speaking of passports


invictaspirit said:


> 3. In a strictly political/diplomatic sense, citizens are only ever British. The passport is the same whether or not you live in England, Wales, Scotland or NI. The official nationality and citizenship are British only.


What does that say about the _status_ of Northern Ireland? It would appear that as it is not a constituent part of the "Great Britain" entity, but is a constituent part of the "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" it is being 'lost' in the pre-1800 Act of Union name for the state.

You may not know that the Irish for England is Sasana, and the Irish for English (as in _a person_) is Sasanach. I believe the Scots-Gaelic uses similar terms. They are derived from "Saxon" and indicates the fact that the Celtic peoples saw the Angles, Jutes, Saxons et al as a different sort of creature from the British - we call Wales An Bhreatain Bheag - "the little Britain" and Welsh is Breathnach. That is interesting, as we use the same word for the name of a person - John Walsh (pronounced  "Welsh" in many areas, and spelt that way in others) would be Séan Breathnach. There was clearly a distinction between the residents of England - whom the Celts must have had a word for in pre-A,J&S times - and the residents of Britain - An Bhreatain Mhór.
None of this can be discussed without mentioning that the Irish for Brittany is An Bhriotáin - and the real kicker is that Briotánach is Breton while Briotanach is Briton — just the length of the first 'a' distinguishes them.
(Okay, bernik, time for you to throw in your couple of cents worth 

The Scots and Scotland really throw a spanner in the works, being Albanach and Albain respectively. Now, if those aren't references to perfidious Albion and which probably derives (according to Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable) from the white cliffs facing Gaul, or which could possibly have been the name for England in Celtic. I'm always unsure, but I think a probably beats a possibly (unless this is seven-card stud linguistics) in most instances.


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## Outsider

Lusitania said:


> In Portugal, we never say "britânicos" for british, usually only in the media. We always say "ingleses" as english.


I disagree. Although it's common to use "inglês" for British, you also hear "britânico" a lot, even outside the media. Well, at least in more careful speech.


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## invictaspirit

> And yet most people would lump Robert Burns, George Bernard Shaw and Dylan Thomas in with William Shakespeare and Geoffrey Chaucer under the heading of _English Literature_ - subsuming nationality into language!


 
Who would, maxi? After half a lifetime of studying and teaching literature I have never heard anyone make such a clunk-headed mistake. Any Englishman with the most rudimentary schooling in literature would recognise Scottish, Irish, Welsh and English literature there.

'Tis true that in the GCSE and A-Level subject English Literature one will find a few Americans, Irishmen and Scots to study, depending on the syllabus and school. However, the 'English' is a reference to the *language*, not the nationality or origin of the literature itself.  Perhaps we should call it Literature in English.

Thanks, by the way, for your long post, which was interesting.


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## .   1

invictaspirit said:


> 'Tis true that in the GCSE and A-Level subject English Literature one will find a few Americans, Irishmen and Scots to study, depending on the syllabus and school. However, the 'English' is a reference to the *language*, not the nationality or origin of the literature itself. Perhaps we should call it Literature in English.


You may even find an Aussie or two lumped in with the rest.
Perhaps we should refer to it as Literature in English but we don't.  We call it English Literature and we understand that we are talking about the language not the nationality of the literature.

.,,


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## Chazzwozzer

People normally call UK as "İngiltere" in Turkish. Even in media, they almost never use its right name: "Birleşik Krallık" (United Kingdom)

I don't even think most people are aware of the difference.


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## cirrus

I live in the UK but I don't think I actually say it unless I am referring to nationality - I am a UK passport holder.  I might say Britain if I meant the bit that goes from John O Groats to Lands End but generally I find myself talking about here or there!


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## ps139

I think I would say UK (location) or British (adjective) if I knew it was a UK-governmental sort of operation. Like, "British police stopped terrorists at the airport" or "UK police..." etc. 

If something happens in England, Scotland, N. Ireland, Wales... I would probably just say the name of the country.

Of course, this is what I am thinking now. Who knows what I actually sound like when I speak...


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## Словеса

Setwale_Charm said:


> The publishers were quite surprised when I stubbornly kept referring to her as "королева Великобритании" in my articles. But it is only quite natural that they should not be acquainted with these sensitivities. Come, she is in reality German anyway!


Well, British monarchy is English, is it not? It is hard history that England ruled in the state, so of course over history we got used to the term "королева английская" (as opposed to "королева шотландская", for example). It sounds like "королева Великобритании" might as well not exist: why would they need a queen if they have a prime minister!


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## franknagy

Hungarian nouns:
United Kingdom = Egyesült Királyság,
Great Britain = Nagybritannia,
England = Anglia.

Hungarian adjectives:
British = brit,
English = angol,
Anglo-Saxon = angolszász.

The queen is the "angol királynő".


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## germanbz

I agree with Fernando. I'd just add about that "generalisation" that in Spain, it is usual when people talk about the whole country but not a particullar destination. For example, if you don't know in which part of the UK is someone it's usual to say.  "_He's in England_". But whether you know the town, and it is a well known town as Edimburg, people usually use "Scotland".  It's strange to hear somebody saying "he's in England, exactly in Edimburg".


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## Perseas

invictaspirit said:


> I was debating with another member the variety of ways of naming the UK around the world.  Most people in everyday situations and conversations still frequently refer to the UK as 'England'.  Do you?  And what does your country's news media do?  For example, the Spanish media are usually very correct in referring to the _Reino Unido_.  But not many Spanish people would say that in normal conversation, in my experience.
> 
> What name is most common in the press and on TV?


When Greek people refer to British MPs or the Queen, they usually call them "English". In contrary, the most common name in the press or on TV is "British". Probably, "η βασίλισσα της Αγγλίας" (translation: "the Queen of England") is more common even in the press.


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## Pedro y La Torre

Perseas said:


> When Greek people refer to British MPs or the Queen, they usually call them "English". In contrary, the most common name in the press or on TV is "British". Probably, "η βασίλισσα της Αγγλίας" (translation: "the Queen of England") is more common even in the press.



She's known simply as the Queen or the Queen of England in Ireland. I've never heard anyone, even in Britain, speak of the ''Queen of the United Kingdom''.


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## Sepia

Even on her website she is only called

Her Majesty the Queen, while the others have their assigned territories mentioned - The Prince of Wales, etc.

In case somebody is interested: www.royal.gov.uk


In Germany she is often simply called "The Queen" - in English. While all other Queens would be "Königin x".


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## lingpil

If she was the Queen of Great Britain or the United Kingdom she would be Elizabeth I.  Her first namesakes ruled the country when it actually was named England. And since the counting of the monarchs didn't start from zero after 1707 (or 1708?) it's absolutely appropriate to talk about the kings and queens of England. In German news however I often hear "Britische Königin" which is for me totaly wrong.


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## fdb

Elizabeth I was styled “By the Grace of God, Queen of England, France and Ireland, Defender of the Faith, etc.” Elizabeth II is officially “By the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith”, with no mention of England at all. The style changes with almost every monarch, but they are regarded as belonging to the same series of rulers; thus the numbering.


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## lingpil

fdb said:


> ...but they are regarded as belonging to the same series of rulers; thus the numbering.


That's what I intended to say, I just couldn't express myself well enough. Since it's the same line of rulers it's natural to refer to the historical roots of this tradition.


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## Amapolas

In Argentina, I'd say the media usually say Reino Unido or Gran Bretaña. However, in everyday language, "in the street" as it were, people say Inglaterra (England).


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## Minnie121728

Britanicos/ Ingleses.


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## L.P. Translator

In Italy we often use "Inghilterra (England)" - unless we are talking to someone who knows British history and likes to point out the difference. A different story for TV and newspapers though - you'll hear talking about UK fairly often then.

I, for example, use both terms to refer solely to England. When talking about Ireland and Scotland I usually say "Ireland and Scotland" because not everyone knows British geography and also because we are just used that way... you'll rarely hear someone say "Belfast, United Kingdom" - but I may be wrong, that in fact could be my experience only and be not true in another part of Italy. I myself rarely refer to Belfast as a city from the United Kingdom rather than Ireland. 

The Union Jack, for most Italians, is the English flag.

I hope you find this helpful,
Leonardo


----------



## irinet

Hi, 
We  say Great Britain or England. Few would use UK in my country.


----------



## JamesM

I think I would normally use the names I grew up learning:  England, Scotland, Ireland, Wales, Northern Ireland.  (I imagine some of these aren't quite countries but they're the divisions I think of when I think of the UK.)  I would say London, England, for example, but I've seen London, UK recently and I'm still not quite used to it.

I would use British for the general term but I wouldn't think normally of calling someone from Scotland British.  I suppose it's correct but it seems odd to me.  They live in the UK but they're always Scottish to me.  The same holds true for Northern Ireland.  I think of them as Irish, not British, although I imagine they have British passports and would go to the British Embassy if they had a problem.

In political discussions I tend of think of it as the UK because it's one government that is acting.


----------



## L.P. Translator

JamesM said:


> I think I would normally use the names I grew up learning:  England, Scotland, Ireland, Wales, Northern Ireland.  (I imagine some of these aren't quite countries but they're the divisions I think of when I think of the UK.)  I would say London, England, for example, but I've seen London, UK recently and I'm still not quite used to it.
> 
> I would use British for the general term but I wouldn't think normally of calling someone from Scotland British.  I suppose it's correct but it seems odd to me.  They live in the UK but they're always Scottish to me.  The same holds true for Northern Ireland.  I think of them as Irish, not British, although I imagine they have British passports and would go to the British Embassy if they had a problem.
> 
> In political discussions I tend of think of it as the UK because it's one government that is acting.



Maybe it's similar to the European Union. Do people in the States say we're "European" or "Italian"?


----------



## Pedro y La Torre

JamesM said:


> I think I would normally use the names I grew up learning:  England, Scotland, Ireland, Wales, Northern Ireland.  (I imagine some of these aren't quite countries but they're the divisions I think of when I think of the UK.)  I would say London, England, for example, but I've seen London, UK recently and I'm still not quite used to it.
> 
> I would use British for the general term but I wouldn't think normally of calling someone from Scotland British.  I suppose it's correct but it seems odd to me.  They live in the UK but they're always Scottish to me.  The same holds true for Northern Ireland.  I think of them as Irish, not British, although I imagine they have British passports and would go to the British Embassy if they had a problem.
> 
> In political discussions I tend of think of it as the UK because it's one government that is acting.



Even more strangely, in Ireland when people speak of ''Brits'', we think of the English. Scots are simply Scots and the Welsh are simply Welsh.


----------



## rhitagawr

l usually say _Britain_, although strictly speaking this excludes Northern Ireland. I don't say _Great Britain_ except ironically. It sounds pompous and Britain is no longer great. _The United Kingdom_ is a bit of a mouthful. _The UK_ is impersonal. As I don't want to offend the Celts, I say _England_ only when I mean England and nowhere else.


----------



## JamesM

L.P. Translator said:


> Maybe it's similar to the European Union. Do people in the States say we're "European" or "Italian"?



I think it's far more common for us to say Italian.  European is usually reserved for traits that are common to all Europeans (at least in our minds).  That's my opinion.


----------



## JamesM

rhitagawr said:


> l usually say _Britain_, although strictly speaking this excludes Northern Ireland. I don't say _Great Britain_ except ironically. It sounds pompous and Britain is no longer great. _The United Kingdom_ is a bit of a mouthful. _The UK_ is impersonal. As I don't want to offend the Celts, I say _England_ only when I mean England and nowhere else.



But isn't Britain the island (England / Scotland / Wales) and Great Britain includes Northern Ireland?  That's what I was taught, which is not to say that it's correct.


----------



## Pedro y La Torre

JamesM said:


> But isn't Britain the island (England / Scotland / Wales) and Great Britain includes Northern Ireland?  That's what I was taught, which is not to say that it's correct.



No Great Britain is merely another name for the island (dates to 1400 or so) and may well be a borrowing from the French _Grande Bretagne_ (to distinguish from Brittany). The United Kingdom includes Northern Ireland; Great Britain, however, does not, whence the official name of the state: the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.


----------



## Словеса

Etcetera said:


> In Russia, we usually call the country Великобритания (Great Britain) or even Англия (England). I suspect that for an average Russian there's hardly any difference between Great Britain and England - sorry, dear English!


We also say simply Британия, when we are lazy to pronounce Велико- ("Great"). For example, the meme "British scientists" is "британские учёные" (the adjective великобританский does not exist, though). Granted that we usually don't have to discuss England or Britain as wholes in informal contexts. Of course, if someone is knowledgeable enough to know that Maxwell was Scottish, he or she might show that off… but otherwise he is "английский учёный", I am afraid. A question from a crossword (the first result in Google): "how the science is called of whose laws English scientist J. C. Maxwell treated? (15 letters)"…


----------



## rhitagawr

Pedro y La Torre said:


> No Great Britain is merely another name for the island (dates to 1400 or so) and may well be a borrowing from the French _Grande Bretagne_ (to distinguish from Brittany). The United Kingdom includes Northern Ireland; Great Britain, however, does not, whence the official name of the state: the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.


To add too the confusion, the adjective _British_ seems to apply to the whole of the United Kingdom including Northern Island and not just 'Great Britain.'


----------



## Pedro y La Torre

rhitagawr said:


> To add too the confusion, the adjective _British_ seems to apply to the whole of the United Kingdom including Northern Island and not just 'Great Britain.'



Northern Ireland is a complex one, for obvious reasons. But 'British' seems to even apply to places like the Isle of Man, which aren't even part of the UK!


----------



## Amapolas

Pedro y La Torre said:


> But 'British' seems to even apply to places like the Isle of Man, which aren't even part of the UK!


This is very interesting. If you'd asked me, I'd always thought of the Isle of Man as being part of the UK. After your post I went to Wikipedia and learnt it's a 'British Crown Dependency'.

And now, if Scotland becomes independent, the whole thing's going to become even more complex. I've always thought of British as anything from Great Britian, i.e. the whole of the bigger island. But it was more or less one political unit, once currency, etc.


----------



## rhitagawr

The Isle of Man doesn't return an MP to Westminster. _The British Isles_ consist of the mainland of Britain; the whole of the island of Ireland; and the outlying islands. But except in this phrase, _British_ is rarely used in a purely geographical sense.


----------



## funnyhat

invictaspirit said:


> Sure, but in my experience the US media get it right.  You never hear of the 'English government' or the 'English military did yadda yadda in Afghanistan' in the US media.  I'd say the US media was one of the best in this respect.  It's always 'British', 'UK' etc.



But that may be simply because Americans tend to not use "English" as a national adjective altogether.  The word _English_, over here, tends to be used only in reference to the language (e.g., "English grammar"). People/things from England are almost always called "British." (Conversely, people/things from the other three parts of the UK are often called "Scottish," "Welsh," or "Northern Irish.")

When it comes to the country itself, any/all of "England," "Britain" and "the UK" may be used.  People often aren't certain of the distinction between these terms.


----------



## rhitagawr

Don't worry. We get confused ourselves. For me personally, _British_ is more of a political concept - the British monarchy, the British army etc. Emotionally and culturally, I feel English. We say the river Thames is in England and not in Britain, although I can see why a foreigner would look at it differently. There is English, Welsh, Scottish, and Irish literature, but there is no British literature. There is a Welsh Assembly in Cardiff, a Scottish Parliament in Edinburgh, and an Irish Parliament in Belfast. There is no separate English Parliament. Some people think there should be. There has been much discussion recently about teaching children 'British values', whatever they are. Fairness and tolerance, people say, as though foreigners can't be fair-minded and tolerant.


----------



## Pedro y La Torre

And until the Second World War, even (or especially) English writers usually referred to the UK as ''England''.

Back in 1770, William Pitt the Elder commented:



> I have the principles of an Englishman, and I utter them without apprehension or reserve...this is not the language of faction; let it be tried by that criterion, by which alone we can distinguish what is factious, from what is not—by the principles of the *English constitution*. I have been bred up in these principles, and I know that when the liberty of the subject is invaded, and all redress denied him, resistance is justifiable...the constitution has its political Bible, by which if it be fairly consulted, every political question may, and ought to be determined.



Funnily enough, at the same time, soon to be rebelling Americans were speaking of their rights under the ''_British _constitution'' (though they did nevertheless refer to the merit of their claims as ''free Englishmen''). 

Logic, eh.


----------



## funnyhat

rhitagawr said:


> There is English, Welsh, Scottish, and Irish literature, but there is no British literature.



Interesting.  In the United States, "British literature" classes are common at the high school/university level (I took one myself).  Obviously they refer only to authors from the UK.  In contrast, "English literature" can generally refer to any kind of writing in English.


----------



## Bartek_USA

I took British literature classes too. I can't imagine why there wouldn't be one if there's such a country.

In Poland, the full name (The United Kingdom...) is rarely used, only in specific context. We generally refer to the country as _W__ielka Brytania _(Great Britain) but it also depends on the context. Let's take emigration for example. I believe a Polish emigrant is much less likely to say "I'm leaving for Great Britain" than "I'm leaving for [the name of the country: England/Scotland etc.]. Tourists, I believe, are as likely to say "Great Britain" as "England, Scotland, etc".


----------



## Stoggler

rhitagawr said:


> Don't worry. We get confused ourselves. For me personally, _British_ is more of a political concept - the British monarchy, the British army etc. Emotionally and culturally, I feel English. We say the river Thames is in England and not in Britain, although I can see why a foreigner would look at it differently. There is English, Welsh, Scottish, and Irish literature, but there is no British literature. There is a Welsh Assembly in Cardiff, a Scottish Parliament in Edinburgh, and an Irish Parliament in Belfast. There is no separate English Parliament. Some people think there should be. There has been much discussion recently about teaching children 'British values', whatever they are. Fairness and tolerance, people say, as though foreigners can't be fair-minded and tolerant.



Welsh and Irish literature can refer to literature in those respective languages.  And the elected body in Belfast is called the Northern Ireland Assembly (don't think "Irish Parliament" would be a popular name with Unionists).


----------



## Radioh

We call the UK "Anh", which means "big brother". Few people would recognise what "the UK" is, even some of my friends at the university.


----------



## Dandee

In my country, most of the people say "England", because they do not know the difference between England and UK.


----------



## Naohiro

I spent a lot of my childhood in Singapore (a former British colony) where English is widely used. Funnily enough, most people, not just the media, say "the UK" on first instinct. Singaporeans rarely ever say the full "United Kingdom" for cultural reasons (they prefer to use abbreviations). "Great Britain" or "Britain" is rarely used, except when referring to the accent from that region ("British accent"). "England" is almost never used unless one is referring to the football team.

In China, almost everyone, including the media, say 英国. It means something like the English Kingdom. The next most popular term is 英格兰 (England). I have seen some media outlets use 联合王国 (United Kingdom) but I have rarely heard it in speech. 'Britain' is literally never used.


----------



## vianie

I could notice that many younger Slovaks (born in 1970+) already call the UK simply UK (spelled _oo kah_), very probably also due to the tens of thousands Slovaks working there.


----------



## eno2

invictaspirit said:


> I was debating with another member the variety of ways of naming the UK around the world.  Most people in everyday situations and conversations still frequently refer to the UK as 'England'.  Do you?  And what does your country's news media do?  For example, the Spanish media are usually very correct in referring to the _Reino Unido_.  But not many Spanish people would say that in normal conversation, in my experience.
> 
> What name is most common in the press and on TV?



Personally as a Flemish person I say England. As for the press & Media, I would have to check.


----------



## velisarius

Most people I meet in Greece have a hazy idea of the difference between, England, Great Britain, and the UK.  Most of them are also rather derisive of the "Great" in GB, as they think it reveals delusions of grandeur.


----------



## eno2

I even diddn't know the the difference

Great Britain = UK = the three nations England, Wales, Scotland. 

The *United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland*, usually shortened to the *United Kingdom* (abbreviation *UK*), is the sovereign state comprising Great Britain plus *Northern Ireland* since 1927

So I still don't know the difference.


----------



## ewie

What difference? the difference between what and what?


----------



## eno2

Between GB and UK

That England is only part of that, that I knew. But the term is used as pars pro toto


----------



## ewie

Official name of the country: _The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland_.
Unofficial/shorthand names for the country: _The United Kingdom, The UK, UK, Great Britain, GB, Britain._
Adjective, official and unofficial: _British_.


----------



## Frank78

eno2 said:


> Between GB and UK
> 
> That England is only part of that, that I knew. But the term is used as pars pro toto



You have already quoted the difference. Great Britain excludes Northern Ireland.

Most people use the terms wrong in Germany, e.g. in the news you can hear about "elections in Great Britain". Despite Nortern Ireland also votes.


----------



## eno2

ewie said:


> Official name of the country: _The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland_.
> Unofficial/shorthand names for the country: _The United Kingdom, The UK, UK, Great Britain, GB, Britain._
> Adjective, official and unofficial: _British_.


I posted already the official name that nobody uses. #75

The question was how people over the world call _The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland_.

In Great parts it's referred to as England.  Which you don't even mention as unofficial. Which is quite natural for English because it's too regional.

England to foreigners= a frequently used term pars pro toto.  Not so for the English.


----------



## eno2

Frank78 said:


> You have already quoted the difference. Great Britain excludes Northern Ireland.
> 
> Most people use the terms wrong in Germany, e.g. in the news you can hear about "elections in Great Britain". Despite Nortern Ireland also votes.


Yes I'm sure that's unclear to many.


----------



## ewie

eno2 said:


> I posted already the official name that nobody uses. #75


People _do_ use it, in official circumstances.


eno2 said:


> In Great parts it's referred to as England.


 I don't know what you mean.


eno2 said:


> you don't even mention [England] as unofficial. Which is quite natural for English because it's too regional.


I don't mention it as an unofficial name for the country because it _isn't_ one.  It's not that it's 'too regional': it's just plain *wrong*.
_England_ is the name of England.


----------



## eno2

ewie said:


> People _do_ use it, in official circumstances.


OK. Few people. Officials.


> I don't know what you mean.


OK: In  parts of the world. Perhaps I exaggerated by saying: great parts (of the world).



> I don't mention it as an unofficial name for the country because it _isn't_ one.  It's not that it's 'too regional': it's just plain *wrong*.
> _England_ is the name of England.


The use of England is widespread. Those who use it don't care it's wrong, many don't even know it's wrong, it's just a(n old) habit. There are a few examples in this thread. England rules the waves: is that England? In written communication, on forums, emails etc,  I use UK.
In speach I dare to use England, English, meaning Britain, Brits, Britons. Are you English? Meaning Briton.


----------



## Frank78

eno2 said:


> . England rules the waves: is that England?



 The words "England" or "English" do not occur once in "Rule Britannia".


----------



## ewie

eno2 said:


> OK. Few people. Officials.


How often do you refer to your country as _Het Koninkrijk België_? (if that's the correct term)


----------



## eno2

Never, nobody does in speech.


----------



## eno2

Frank78 said:


> The words "England" or "English" do not occur once in "Rule Britannia".


It's Britannia.  Yet another term for UK-Great Britain.


> the definition of Britannia
> Chiefly Literary.
> 
> Great Britain.
> the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.



I suppose they mean N.Ireland.


----------



## eno2

ewie said:


> Official name of the country: _The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland_.
> Unofficial/shorthand names for the country: _The United Kingdom, The UK, UK, Great Britain, GB, Britain._
> Adjective, official and unofficial: _British_.


So _The United Kingdom, The UK, UK, Great Britain, GB, Britain always includes N.Ireland. ?  If that's  so, what's the term for the island as a whole? I suppose: England?

Is there  a difference between The British and the Britons? 

What-who are "The English" precisely?

_


----------



## ewie

The right-hand island is called _Great Britain_ ~ not _Britain_ or _England/Wales/Scotland ... _or anything else.
The left-hand island is called _Ireland_, quite often _the island of Ireland_ when you need to be specific.


----------



## eno2

OK but it's a fact that amongst foreigners it's quite common to refer to the big island as England.


> _Is there a difference between the Brits, the British and the Britons?
> 
> What-who are "The English" precisely?_



I see all these terms used, I suppose the Brits & the British & The Britons is all right, while the English is a commonly used  pars pro toto, in the foreign media and amongst foreigners , that is to be avoided?


----------



## Pedro y La Torre

The island has _never_ been called England. England is used as shorthand for the UK in most European languages in the same way Russia was used interchangeably with the USSR or Soviet Union. British writers (of the non-Scottish variety) and journalists (notably George Orwell and Bertrand Russell) generally followed this convention too until WWII, whereupon it fell out of fashion.


----------



## eno2

For decades my  daughter has been crossing over regularly by ferry, perhaps now by train, we always spoke of it as going to England, shopping in England.  Long after WWII I myself worked between England and the continent as a guide for English tourists. In the company we spoke of it as England. But perhaps there's a bit of confusion here because we don't say England/Inglish  but Engeland/Engelsen, just as the Spanish don't say England/English  but Inglaterra/Inglés in their OWN language as a generic term . Hence England. The back-translation  doesn't carry the same genericness. I'll have a look in Ngram for
frequencies  Inglaterra/ Gran Bretaña (no Dutch available):
Inglaterra is used 250% more than Gran Bretaña.
Inglés is used 500% more than británico. 


_


_


----------



## Pedro y La Torre

As I said in most European languages, this tends to be the case (that said, I doubt anyone would say "I'm going to Edinburgh in England", whatever their language). In any case, using "England'' in reference to the UK or Great Britain (the island) is wrong.


----------



## eno2

People speak their own language at home, not English.

In France: Ngram:

Angleterre. 60%
Royaume Uni: 0%


----------



## Pedro y La Torre

That doesn't indicate that most French speakers refer to the island as "England". One would have to be very dim-witted indeed to not know that Wales, Scotland and indeed Ireland exist.


----------



## funnyhat

Pedro y La Torre said:


> As I said in most European languages, this tends to be the case (that said, I doubt anyone would say "I'm going to Edinburgh in England", whatever their language). In any case, using "England'' in reference to the UK or Great Britain (the island) is wrong.



I have, in fact, heard people mention Edinburgh and Glasgow when speaking of cities in "northern England."  They may be aware that these two cities are in Scotland, but may not understand that Scotland is not part of England - it's part of the UK.

The issue is not so much that people aren't aware of the existence of Scotland/Wales/Ireland, but that they don't understand the political relationship (or lack thereof, in the Republic of Ireland's case) between them and England.  

The fact that the British nations compete separately in some sports probably just confuses things further.


----------



## Gravos

invictaspirit said:


> It's "sorry dear Welsh and Scottish".    I am English and if you call all of GB England that's fine by me.    Hehe...but no, it isn't really fine.  I'm standing up for the other Brits.
> 
> Of course, all of this is our fault for having a confusing name and complex nation.  It interests me because some countries are (in an official and media sense) very correct and seem to think about it more.  Most North Europeans, for example.  Also Spain.  The worst is France, where Scotland and Wales are very frequently ignored by the French president, government and often the media too.  You certainly see _Royaume Uni _in the French press, as well as _britannique.  _It's not as if they don't do it.  But the French are the most likely to slip back into using the word _anglais.  _Chirac, for example, does it all the time, and frequently talks about the _gouvernement anglais_.



Reading this earlier post I would explain this by the old rivalry history France has with "les Anglais" ! In medieval history the enemy of France has always been England - and only England! - especially on the Joan of Arch period in the collective psyche. All along the wars and historical rivalries France had with England, "les Anglais" were always seen as the enemy, until WW2 where they suddenly became officially "Les forces Britanniques" regarding the 1944 liberation... 
All in all when Chirac says "les Anglais" that would always be followed by a jibe, and  implying a slice of disdain.

That said, the enemy of my enemy being my friend, when French speak about the Scottish, Welsh and Irish, they hardly never imply any pejorative meaning at the same level as they do for "Les Anglais", as we have more historical friendship stories with those nations. Old rivalry can still be seen within the 6 nations rugby tournament where for the French, whatever the skill of the teams are at the moment, the most important match to win is always versus England (that France loses most of the time by the way)!


----------



## WadiH

Unless it's an official (legal or diplomatic) document, most Arabs refer to the UK as _briTaania_.  In my experience, people here are well aware of the distinction between England and the other nations of the UK, but occasionally the adjective _Ingliiz_ is used to refer to "the British" because people often assume that the UK is led by the English.


----------



## Red Arrow

@eno2: De makkelijkste manier om het te onthouden is als volgt:
Groot-Brittannië bestaat uit twee eilanden en omvat twee landen: Ierland en het Verenigd Koninkrijk.
Het Verenigd Koninkrijk is één land en bestaat uit anderhalf eiland.

Groot-Brittanië = Verenigd Koninkrijk + Ierland


----------



## Stoggler

Red Arrow :D said:


> @eno2: De makkelijkste manier om het te onthouden is als volgt:
> Groot-Brittannië bestaat uit twee eilanden en omvat twee landen: Ierland en het Verenigd Koninkrijk.
> Het Verenigd Koninkrijk is één land en bestaat uit anderhalf eiland.
> 
> Groot-Brittanië = Verenigd Koninkrijk + Ierland



Eh?  

Groot-Brittanië bestaat uit *één* eiland (England, Schottland en Wales)
't Verenigd Koninkrijk = Groot-Britannië + Noord Ierland

Verenigd Koninkrijk + Republiek Ierland = Britse Eilanden


----------



## eno2

dubbel


----------



## eno2

Yes but...That doesn't square with Ewie's # 78 either (though that's in English)
Ja maar...dat komt ook niet overeen met Ewie's # 78 (alhoewel dat in het Engels is)

Ik ben ook geneigd Groot Brittannië als het groot eiland te zien
I'm also inclined to consider the big island as Great Britain.

And the UK as GB + N. IR
En het VK (Verenigd Koninkrijk) als GB (Groot Brittanië) + N. Ierland)

I denk dat dat klopt.
I think that's correct.


----------



## ewie

Stoggler said:


> Groot-Brittanië bestaat uit *één* eiland (England, Schottland en Wales)
> 't Verenigd Koninkrijk = Groot-Britannië + Noord Ierland
> 
> Verenigd Koninkrijk + Republiek Ierland = Britse Eilanden


 _duim omhoog_


----------



## eno2

ewie said:


> Official name of the country: _The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland_.
> Unofficial/shorthand names for the country: _The United Kingdom, The UK, UK, Great Britain, GB, Britain._
> Adjective, official and unofficial: _British_.





Stoggler said:


> Eh?
> 
> Groot-Brittanië bestaat uit *één* eiland (England, Schottland en Wales)
> 't Verenigd Koninkrijk = Groot-Britannië + Noord Ierland
> 
> Verenigd Koninkrijk + Republiek Ierland = Britse Eilanden



There's a little problem here: 

Ewie said _The United Kingdom, The UK, UK, Great Britain, GB, Britain. are all the same. 

Stoggler says 't Verenigd Koninkrijk(*UK*) = Groot-Britannië *(Great Britain*)+ Noord Ierland_


----------



## Red Arrow

Stoggler said:


> Eh?
> 
> Groot-Brittanië bestaat uit *één* eiland (England, Schottland en Wales)
> 't Verenigd Koninkrijk = Groot-Britannië + Noord Ierland
> 
> Verenigd Koninkrijk + Republiek Ierland = Britse Eilanden


Seriously? So the Irish aren't British? That is not what I have heard in high school. (And my English teacher had lived in Ireland...)


eno2 said:


> Ewie said _The United Kingdom, The UK, UK, Great Britain, GB, Britain. are all the same._


I am pretty sure Ewie is wrong. I suppose Stoggler is right.


----------



## Stoggler

Red Arrow :D said:


> Seriously? So the Irish aren't British? That is not what I have heard in high school. (And my English teacher had lived in Ireland...)



It depends on where in Ireland they are from and also their religion.  Protestants from Northern Ireland consider themselves as British (as a rule), while Catholics from the north would not think of themselves as British, even if they have lived their entire life in that part of the island of Ireland that is a constituent part of the U.K. 

People from the Republic of Ireland are not British.


----------



## ewie

eno2 said:


> There's a little problem here:
> 
> Ewie said _The United Kingdom, The UK, UK, Great Britain, GB, Britain. are all the same.
> 
> Stoggler says 't Verenigd Koninkrijk(*UK*) = Groot-Britannië *(Great Britain*)+ Noord Ierland_


I've no idea what you're talking about, Eno.
_The United Kingdom, The UK, UK, Great Britain, GB, _and _Britain _are all names (varying degrees of formality) for the same country.  (Perhaps you thought I meant, "They're all the same thing," which they aren't.)
Stoggler is saying that [the island of] Great Britain and [the part of the island of Ireland called] _Northern Ireland_ constitute the United Kingdom.
Which they do.


----------



## eno2

Ewie I quoted you a few times correctly, perhaps my interpretion was not what you meant. 
Anyhow, Stoggler indicated a difference between UK and Great Britain. Those are not the names of the same country then.


----------



## eno2

Stoggler said:


> It depends on where in Ireland they are from and also their religion.  Protestants from Northern Ireland consider themselves as British (as a rule), while Catholics from the north would not think of themselves as British, even if they have lived their entire life in that part of the island of Ireland that is a constituent part of the U.K.
> 
> People from the Republic of Ireland are not British.


Yes, that confirms my thought in that matter of "British".


----------



## ewie

As a matter of fact I didn't say this >


eno2 said:


> Ewie said _The United Kingdom, The UK, UK, Great Britain, GB, Britain. are all the same. _


I said this >


ewie said:


> Official name of the country: _The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland_.
> Unofficial/shorthand names for the country: _The United Kingdom, The UK, UK, Great Britain, GB, Britain._


Case closed.  As far as I'm concerned.


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## eno2

Yes, I cited it at least three times. 
Stoggler indicated a difference between UK and Great Britain. I'll keep to that.


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## ewie

<gives up>


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## Wilma_Sweden

"Förenade konungariket Storbritannien och Nordirland" is the official name in Swedish as specified by the Swedish government. The  official short name is "Förenade kungariket". However, these names are primarily for EU legislative documents when translated to Swedish.

In general text, "Storbritannien" is recommended as the name of the country, although the region of Great Britain has the same name in Swedish and if necessary, you have to specify which meaning that's intended. The adjective for the country is "British".

However, if you thought for a moment that the average Swede knows this, forget it! You'll find references to the English government in speech, blogs, tabloids and even Swedish Wikipedia, while most reputable publications use the correct adjective for the British government.  Swedes do know about the abbreviation UK, but can't understand why the country is called UK in the Eurovision Song Contest but GB in the Olympics.  They will call the country England - I even had to reprimand my brother for having put an "England" tag on his Islay pics on Instagram and warned that it would be a gross insult to Scotland and its people!


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## eno2

Ah yes, now I understand. Brexit is not Brexit. It's UKexit.


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## Copperknickers

JamesM said:


> I think I would normally use the names I grew up learning:  England, Scotland, Ireland, Wales, Northern Ireland.  (I imagine some of these aren't quite countries but they're the divisions I think of when I think of the UK.)



They are indeed all countries. The UK is a 'country of countries', just like the USA is a '(sovereign) state of states'. Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland function similarly to US states (sort of, not quite). Wales was formerly considered a 'principality' which was subordinate to England (technically, Prince Charles is still the 'Prince of Wales') but this was later changed. Ireland and Scotland were broadly speaking considered separate countries subordinate to England de facto but not de jure, until Ireland's war of independence, when the Republic of Ireland left the UK. The province known as Ulster which had a very large Scots-Irish population elected to remain part of the UK, hence splitting the island of Ireland into two parts, one independent, one part of the UK. 

All of the above refers to England as a political entity per se. Of course, the Crown and the parliament at Westminster are based in England, and until recently Westminster ruled over Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, so in real terms England had control over the other three. These days, Scotland has its own parliament, and Westminster only deals with 'reserved' matters such as defence and taxation. Northern Ireland and Wales also have their own parliaments, but with considerably less power than the Scottish one.



> I would use British for the general term but I wouldn't think normally of calling someone from Scotland British.  I suppose it's correct but it seems odd to me.  They live in the UK but they're always Scottish to me.



Most Scots think the same way.



> The same holds true for Northern Ireland.  I think of them as Irish, not British, although I imagine they have British passports and would go to the British Embassy if they had a problem.



Increasingly, Northern Irish people regard themselves as 'Northern Irish'. However, traditionally speaking, there was no such identity. People thought of themselves as either British or Irish, usually based on their religion: respectively Protestantism or Catholicism. All Northern Irish people are eligible to choose an Irish or a British passport and many of them choose the Irish one and consider themselves Irish. And others consider themselves British and identify more closely with Scotland than the Republic. A few even still speak the Scottish dialect, and I myself have mistaken 'Ulster Scots' people as Scottish Scots, albeit with a slightly unusual accent. But there are many different accents in Scotland and I still find myself encountering ones I have never heard before on occasion.


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## tsoapm

eno2 said:


> I'm also inclined to consider the big island as Great Britain.


As is Oxford Dictionaries:





> Great Britain is the name for the island that comprises England, Scotland, and Wales, although the term is also used loosely to refer to the United Kingdom.


It’s Great in the sense of (relative) size, not moral worth, as is becoming increasingly clear.


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## Stoggler

tsoapm said:


> It’s Great in the sense of (relative) size, not moral worth, as is becoming increasingly clear.



Yep, Little Britain refers to Brittany (at least originally!).


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## Rallino

In Turkish, we use United Kingdom, but not very often. It's all England to us ;p And the word "Great Britain" is known, but few know what exactly it's referring to. Most people probably think UK = GB.


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## tsoapm

L.P. Translator said:


> not everyone knows British geography


Indeed: this thread reminds me of the bewildering Italian habit of asking English people if they’re from London. England’s a little more than a third of the size of Italy, and the UK’s only a little smaller than it, but we do have a few other towns and cities here and there!


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## Oddmania

I'm a little surprised by the comments. Most people I know in France clearly distinguish between England and the UK (infinitely more than they would between Holland and the Netherlands, for instance). And of course, I can't even imagine a reporter or an anchorman on television talking about an incident in 'England' if it actually happened anywhere else in the UK. I would just change the channel! (and the video segment would probably get picked up by a news satire talk show). Maybe because of our proximity to England, or the history we share?

However, I don't think the majority of people here could tell the difference between the UK and Great Britain. I couldn't if it weren't for my 10th-grade geography teacher, who drew this on the blackboard for us one day after correcting our papers.


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## Amapolas

Recently I was watching a video of a Star Trek convention on YouTube, and actress Marina Sirtis told somebody something along these lines: 'I can tell you're from England because only the English call themselves British'.


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## Stoggler

Amapolas said:


> Recently I was watching a video of a Star Trek convention on YouTube, and actress Marina Sirtis told somebody something along these lines: 'I can tell you're from England because only the English call themselves British'.



Often, Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish people might refer to themselves as British if they are amongst foreigners who they think might not know the intricacies of the UK constituent parts - sometimes it's just easier to say that you're British than having to explain what you actually mean.


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## Amapolas

Oh, I see. So she was just trying to play funny. 
Thanks.


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## Stoggler

Amapolas said:


> Oh, I see. So she was just trying to play funny.
> Thanks.



Not necessarily - she does have a bit of a point.  As you will have picked up from this whole thread, it's all a bit complicated! However, without having seen the exchange, it's difficult to draw any real conclusion.  Remember that Marina Sirtis is British* (or should I say English...?) so she probably would have picked up an accent of whoever she was speaking to which may have influenced her response.

*or was originally, I don't know if she's an American citizen now


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## onbalance

I'll admit that I didn't read this thread. We say England, Great Britain (I've never head "Britain" alone), the United Kingdom and, occasionally, the UK (which sounds more European to me). Hope that helps.


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## Pedro y La Torre

Oddmania said:


> Most people I know in France clearly distinguish between England and the UK (infinitely more than they would between Holland and the Netherlands, for instance).



That is really not my experience. At all. England and Britain are synonymous in everyday speech for most French people, including the media. The only time the different parts are always distinguished is for sporting contests or an obvious political issue (e.g. Scottish nationalism).


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## Oddmania

@Pedro y La Torre That's shocking! I can't imagine an anchorman announce "In other news, a four-car pileup left rushhour commuters stranded for over three hours _in England_." if that actually happened in another country in the UK. What kind of news bulletin would that be?

They only people I've heard call Scotsmen or Welshmen 'English' (and I admit I've heard a lot) are the same people who call every Asian they see 'Chinese' even though they could be Japanese or Korean for all they know. However, we do often say "He's English" when we really mean "He's an English speaker", even when talking about American or Australian people. We do that with Belgian and French-Canadian people too: "Don't worry, he's French!", instead of French-_speaking_.


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## Red Arrow

Really? I don't think a Frenchmen would ever say: "He's Dutch", instead of "He's Flemish." or "He speaks Dutch."


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## Oddmania

@Red Arrow :D That's actually _very _common. "Il est belge, mais il ne parle pas français. Il est néerlandais". That's pretty sloppy speech, but common enough.


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## chipulukusu

L.P. Translator said:


> The Union Jack, for most Italians, is the English flag



I think we only realise that there is an English flag during the World Cup or the Euros!


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## Stoggler

The popularity of the English flag (cross of St George) is a recent phenomenon.  Growing up, I never understood quite why the Union Jack was flown by fans at England matches quite so much when that was the flag of the UK.  Back in the 70s and 80s, the England flag had been co-opted by far right groups and it had that negative association, so many didn't want to be seen flying that flag.

However, there was a real change in 1996 during the European Championships which were hosted by England.  At that time, although the Conservatives were in power, Labour (under Blair) were in the ascendency and there was a lot of talk about Scottish devolution.  Scotland and England were drawn in the same group of the tournament, and as a counter to the Scottish saltires, the England fans started flying the England flag.

There is still a whiff of far-right association with the flag, but it's nowhere near as bad as it used to be (the village I live in for example flies the England flag from all the shops in the High Street when we have our annual village fete - no political undertones attached to that!).


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## Pedro y La Torre

Stoggler said:


> The popularity of the English flag (cross of St George) is a recent phenomenon.  Growing up, I never understood quite why the Union Jack was flown by fans at England matches quite so much when that was the flag of the UK.  Back in the 70s and 80s, the England flag had been co-opted by far right groups and it had that negative association, so many didn't want to be seen flying that flag.



I'd guess because it was seen as the "English" flag and the UK and England were basically synonymous for most. It's worth remembering that distinguishing between England and Britain is a relatively recent thing, until the late 1940s, even Britons themselves didn't bother to distinguish Britain from England. Bertrand Russell growing up said (or rather wrote in his autobiography) that he was taught at school that "England" was an island that ends at John O'Groats.

Hardly anyone in France knows of St. George's Cross; the Union Jack is usually called "le drapeau anglais".


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## chipulukusu

Stoggler said:


> The popularity of the English flag (cross of St George) is a recent phenomenon.  Growing up, I never understood quite why the Union Jack was flown by fans at England matches quite so much when that was the flag of the UK.  Back in the 70s and 80s, the England flag had been co-opted by far right groups and it had that negative association, so many didn't want to be seen flying that flag.
> 
> However, there was a real change in 1996 during the European Championships which were hosted by England.  At that time, although the Conservatives were in power, Labour (under Blair) were in the ascendency and there was a lot of talk about Scottish devolution.  Scotland and England were drawn in the same group of the tournament, and as a counter to the Scottish saltires, the England fans started flying the England flag.
> 
> There is still a whiff of far-right association with the flag, but it's nowhere near as bad as it used to be (the village I live in for example flies the England flag from all the shops in the High Street when we have our village fete - no political undertones attached to that!).



Thank you for your valuable insight


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## Stoggler

Pedro y La Torre said:


> I'd guess because it was seen as the "English" flag and the UK and England were basically synonymous for most. It's worth remembering that distinguishing between England and Britain is a relatively recent thing, until the late 1940s, even Britons themselves didn't bother to distinguish Britain from England. Bertrand Russell growing up said (or rather wrote in his autobiography) that he was taught at school that "England" was an island that ends at John O'Groats.
> 
> Hardly anyone in France knows of St. George's Cross; the Union Jack is usually called "le drapeau anglais".



I was just thinking the same thing - it wasn't really until the rise of Scottish and Welsh nationalism in the 50s and 60s onwards that anyone but a few ever gave much consideration to the flags flown in Great Britain.


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## Stoggler

Stoggler said:


> (the village I live in for example flies the England flag from all the shops in the High Street when we have our annual village fete - no political undertones attached to that!).



All the shops fly French and Italian flags in unison when we have visiting French and Italian markets in the village too.  It must look quite strange for those driving through who don't quite know why we "celebrate" France and Italy quite so much in Storrington!

It does look good though, seeing the so many of the same flag down the street.


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## Pedro y La Torre

Stoggler said:


> I was just thinking the same thing - it wasn't really until the rise of Scottish and Welsh nationalism in the 50s and 60s onwards that anyone but a few ever gave much consideration to the flags flown in Great Britain.



Irish history is a good indicator of this. During the first Irish "troubles" from 1916 to 1922 (which led to 26 counties leaving the UK), people at the time only spoke of "the English army", "the English government", "getting England out of Ireland" etc.

By the early 1970s, that had dropped away (albeit not in Irish America) and been replaced by "Brits Out".


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## Pedro y La Torre

Oddmania said:


> @Pedro y La Torre That's shocking! I can't imagine an anchorman announce "In other news, a four-car pileup left rushhour commuters stranded for over three hours _in England_." if that actually happened in another country in the UK. What kind of news bulletin would that be?
> 
> They only people I've heard call Scotsmen or Welshmen 'English' (and I admit I've heard a lot) are the same people who call every Asian they see 'Chinese' even though they could be Japanese or Korean for all they know. However, we do often say "He's English" when we really mean "He's an English speaker", even when talking about American or Australian people. We do that with Belgian and French-Canadian people too: "Don't worry, he's French!", instead of French-_speaking_.



I'm surprised that you're surprised to be honest. The grasp of the differences between the different parts of the UK and Ireland is shaky for most. People know of course that "Ireland'' exists but they often aren't sure whether it's independent or not, or which part has been in conflict over the past 30 years. They also know of Scotland and Wales but I doubt most could tell where England starts and ends if you gave them a blank map of Britain.

This isn't particularly surprising either - how many people during the Cold War could distinguish between Russia and the other republics of the USSR? Everyone just said "Russia" for short as it was easier.


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## ilocas2

We don't use the abbreviation UK very much because someone could confuse it with Ukraine.


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## jekoh

Oddmania said:


> However, we do often say "He's English" when we really mean "He's an English speaker", even when talking about American or Australian people. We do that with Belgian and French-Canadian people too: "Don't worry, he's French!", instead of French-_speaking_.


I can't imagine anyone in France saying "_he's English/il est anglais_" referring to someone they know is American or Australian, or "_he's French/il est français_" when talking about Belgians or Quebecois.

It's certainly more common to refer to Brits as "English" regardless of where they are actually from, for instance when Gordon Brown was the UK's Prime Minister it was not uncommon for journalists to refer to him as "_le premier ministre anglais_".


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## Einstein

There seems to be a crisis of identity among rugby players: before Six Nations matches the Welsh and Scottish teams sing their own national anthems while the English team sings "God save the Queen", which of course is the British anthem. At least that was the situation thr last time I looked, a few years ago.


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## Amapolas

Einstein said:


> There seems to be a crisis of identity among rugby players: before Six Nations matches the Welsh and Scottish teams sing their own national anthems while the English team sings "God save the Queen", which of course is the British anthem. At least that was the situation thr last time I looked, a few years ago.


But England doesn't have a national anthem, right?


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## Einstein

Amapolas said:


> But England doesn't have a national anthem, right?


True, but someone should notice the anomaly! And maybe write another song; the British anthem is unbeatable for its banality in both words and music!


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## Amapolas

Einstein said:


> True, but someone should notice the anomaly! And maybe write another song; the British anthem is unbeatable for its banality in both words and music!


If the words sound banal there's little you can do about it, I'm afraid. National anthems have a tendency to speak about loyalty and victory and such. 
But I take exception to your second point.  The music is gorgeous. It's so beautiful it's even been used and adapted by classical composers. Tchaikowsky for one, IIRC.


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## Gravos

Anthem strange situation occurs on a Northern Ireland versus England World Cup qualifier match in 2006, where both teams use "God Save the Queen".
So if I'm not wrong they played the anthem only once


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