# -ия- vs -ья- (pronunciation)



## Lorenc

I was wondering on the difference in pronunciation between sequences such as -ия- (or ие, ию) and the corresponding sequences with the soft sign, ья, ье, ью (etc).
For example, the name Natalia exist in two forms: Наталья and Наталия. Are they actually pronounced differently or it just a matter of orthography? 

I suppose Наталья should be /nɐˈtalʲjə/ while Наталия is /nɐˈtalʲɪjə/ , but in actuality these two versions are practically indistinguishable to my ears. How is it for Russian ears? Does наталья rhyme with талия? Almost rhyme, perhaps?
I found this post which treats a similar issue although it seems to me in the matter was grammatical correctness rather than pronunciation.


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## Rosett

Yes, these endings pronounce differently, exactly as you posted. Sometimes, «и» (Натали́я) can be emphasized.


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## Awwal12

Lorenc said:


> I suppose Наталья should be /nɐˈtalʲjə/ while Наталия is /nɐˈtalʲɪjə/ , but in actuality these two versions are practically indistinguishable to my ears. How is it for Russian ears?


Pretty much the same. The difference seemingly exists only in slow, fully accentuated speech (and, of course, it is a rare occurrence).


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## Maroseika

Lorenc said:


> Does наталья rhyme with талия? Almost rhyme, perhaps?.


In the "correct" poetry - no, it doesn't, because of the different number of syllables.


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## Rosett

Maroseika said:


> In the "correct" poetry - no, it doesn't, because of the different number of syllables.


Indeed, one can enjoy a striking example of such a rhyme:

«та́лию - Ната́лию - Анталию - Италию...»

Also,  there’s «Улица широкая» - a memorable piece of urban culture. You can listen to it, too, starting at 1’03”.


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## Lorenc

Thank you all for the reply! I think the take-away point is, as a language learner, that it's a very minor point which I can in practice ignore; if it's good enough for incorrect poetry, it's good enough for me


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## Maroseika

Lorenc said:


> Thank you all for the reply! I think the take-away point is, as a language learner, that it's a very minor point which I can in practice ignore; if it's good enough for incorrect poetry, it's good enough for me


I'm afraid you misunderstood my reply. In case of Наталья/Наталия no one will know what exactly name you mean (except maybe Наталья or Наталия herself), because both forms are valid. But since you are asking not only about the proper names, but about pairs like ья/ия in general, it's important to notice, that for example Италья instead of Италия is wrong, and it evidently sounds different. On the other hand, бессилье and бессилие are both valid forms, but the former being poetical, and they also sound quite different.
So better not ignore this difference in practice.


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## Lorenc

Maroseika said:


> I'm afraid you misunderstood my reply.



Then I'm in trouble, as I cannot either hear not make such difference. Not in regular speech, at least.


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## Awwal12

Maroseika, I have to note that orthography (and, possibly, formal phonemic composition) is one thing and actual phonetic flow of speech is something different.


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## Maroseika

Awwal12 said:


> Maroseika, I have to note that orthography (and, possibly, formal phonemic composition) is one thing and actual phonetic flow of speech is something different.


Yes, of course. But do you mean талья and талия, or начинанья and начинания are almost not distinguishable in the flow of speech?


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## Awwal12

I consider it quite possible. And only proper spectrograms and blind tests can tell it for sure.


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## Rosett

Lorenc said:


> Then I'm in trouble, as I cannot either hear not make such difference. Not in regular speech, at least.


In Italian, you have no such difference. Everything that is “-gl(i)”/“-gn(i)” is pronounced nearly the same way. (We had a discussion here about _canaglia _and _bologna_, but I was unable to find it.)
In Russian, in spite of the fact that the meaning wouldn’t change essentially (not always!), prononciation can be dramatically different.

Ex.: _шалунья_ (1’40”, that sounds as if in _болонья/bologna_) vs. _шалуния_. (0’36”), having identical meaning.

It’s almost as if in _Antaglia_ vs. _Italia._


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## jasio

One thing still confuses me: aren't я, е, е, ю softening anyway (as opposed to а, э, о, у)? If so, what does the soft sign do there in the first place? Wouldn't *Наталя or *таля sound the same without it?


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## Awwal12

jasio said:


> One thing still confuses me: aren't я, е, е, ю softening anyway (as opposed to а, э, о, у)? If so, what does the soft sign do there in the first place? Wouldn't *Наталя or *таля sound the same without it?


The iotated letters (я, е, ё, ю) have TWO functions:
1. If there is a consonant letter before them, they mark that this consonant (before /a/, /э/, /о/ or /у/ phonemes respectively) is soft (for the unpaired consonants /й/, /щ/, /ч/, /ц/, /ж/, /ш/ the choice of the following vowel letter is purely conventional);
2 If there is no preceding consonant letter (i.e. word-initially, after vowel letters *and after "ь" or "ъ"*) these letters represent actual /йа/, /йэ/, /йо/, /йу/ combinations.
*Наталя would be /натал'а/, while Наталья is /натал'йа/ and Наталия is /натал'ийа/.


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## jasio

Большое спасибо.


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## Lorenc

Awwal12 said:


> Наталя would be /натал'а/, while Наталья is /натал'йа/ and Наталия is /натал'ийа/.


Forvo has different recording for Наталья and Наталия but they sound the same to me... in particular, if I had to guess, both recording of user donnervald sound like Наталия, recording by karolinka87 sound both like Наталья. What do guys you think?


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## Awwal12

Lorenc said:


> Forvo has different recording for Наталья and Наталия but they sound the same to me...


The first recording for "Наталия" (by karolinka87) is indeed indistinguishable from "Наталья" to me. The other two (by the speakers from Ukraine) are quite distinct, but they are pronounced in a partucularly unnatural manner. So at least a part of the problem seems to be in your ears. Of course, [и], [й] and [л'] are all very close acoustically (particularly the first two), but here your brain must correctly count the peaks of voicing (and, hence, the number of syllables).


jasio said:


> Большое спасибо.


And a small, but important note: even though "э" after a consonant letter always marks that consonant as hard, "е" is ambiguous in that regard - in loanwords it may follow a hard consonant, and it becomes pretty much impossible to tell how the word is actually pronounced basing on the orthography (cf. "леди" /л'э́ди/, but "денди" /дэ́нд'и/), let alone the very natives often pronounce these words differently ("лазер" - /ла́з'эр/, but sometimes /ла́зэр/; "секс" - /сэ́кс/, but sometimes /с'э́кс/) and the same morpheme may be pronounced differently depending on the stress (while /с'э́кс/ is marginal, /с'эксуа́л'ный/ is normal, even predominant).


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## jasio

Lorenc said:


> Forvo has different recording for Наталья and Наталия but they sound the same to me... in particular, if I had to guess, both recording of user donnervald sound like Наталия, recording by karolinka87 sound both like Наталья. What do guys you think?


I would probably fail the blind test as well. 

What I noticed however is that the Ukrainians' "ль" is pronounced virtually without palatalisation, like a Polish 'l', hence the й  in я is by contrast more clearly audiable, while the Russians' is clearly soft, thus making the transition between the sonants more smooth.  

It's a paradox to me, but even the Poles seem to palatalise "l" in this position stronger than the Ukrainians (Natalia).


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## jasio

Rosett said:


> It’s almost as if in _Antaglia_ vs. _Italia._


_Mamma Mia_ would probably be even clearer, or at least easier to distinguish.


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## Sobakus

I don't believe any Russian would pass the blind test on those two. The number of syllables may be different, but the phonetic realisation is the same given that the Russian /j/ is a lazy glide. My best approximation of the two-syllable pronunciation is making that /j/ as weak as I can to make space for the syllable peak. My mother's name is Наталия but I have to think about how to spell it every single time.


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