# el valencià - castellanizado?



## jamesjaime

Hola a tothom,

He oido decir que el valenciano es un dialecto del catalan muy muy influido por el castellano, tanto es que se considera más una mezcla del catalán de Barcelona y el castellano.

Es verdad?

James


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## merquiades

Hi James,
I understand where you are coming from.  I learned Catalan with a Castilian background.  At first I understood Valencian (western dialect) much better than the eastern dialects of Catalunya, probably because of the pure vowel sounds and the lack of neutral unstressed vowels, and perhaps the pronunciation of other consonants closer to the Castilian way.  Also there are many expressions and verb conjugations which coincide with Spanish:  hui (hoy) not avui, per favor (por favor) not sisplau, siga not sigui, parlara not parlés...there are many more examples but they don't come to mind now. I don't know if it´s Castilian influenced or not really.  I think Barcelona speech is more Castilianized actually because at the same time Westerners and Valencians in particular have maintained alive many more of the older forms and expressions of "classical" Catalan that are now considered archaic/obsolete in eastern Catalunya. Cruising through the forum you'll find a lot of threads talking about how conservative Valencian is.  It comes up quite frequently. Besides that, I have read that Western dialects have old influence from Aragonese too, and at one time there was a dialectal continuum in Spain from east to west.  So it may just be coincidence only and logical since this dialect lies further west. But be careful, I don´t think Valencians would take too kindly to having their language referred to as dialect or mixture.


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## jamesjaime

Hey, thanks for your reply  That's interesting ... I didn't know Valencian was more conservative.

Is Valencian really another language? I thought it was just a dialect of Catalan?


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## merquiades

jamesjaime said:


> Hey, thanks for your reply  That's interesting ... I didn't know Valencian was more conservative.
> 
> Is Valencian really another language? I thought it was just a dialect of Catalan?



No, there are two complete dialects of Catalan - Eastern in central, eastern Catalunya and the Balearic islands and Western in western Catalunya, Aragon and Valencia-- (something like British or American English, not really more). They can be quite different in grammar, pronunciation and vocabulary. Of course, they are the same language though.  Linguists don't doubt it. There is some old rivalry between the two areas and I think some politicians try to exaggerate the difference for some concrete agenda but that goes beyond the scope of this forum...


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## merquiades

This wikipedia article should answer your questions about Valencian and the differences between it and eastern catalan.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valencian


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## Istriano

I don't think Valencian is influenced by the Spanish language.
If Valencian is ''Castillianized'', so is Catalan, at least compared to the most different variant: Mallorquin.


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## Istriano

merquiades said:


> No, there are two complete dialects of Catalan - Eastern in central, eastern Catalunya and the Balearic islands and Western in western Catalunya, Aragon and Valencia-- (something like British or American English, not really more). They can be quite different in grammar, pronunciation and vocabulary. Of course, they are the same language though.  Linguists don't doubt it. There is some old rivalry between the two areas and I think some politicians try to exaggerate the difference for some concrete agenda but that goes beyond the scope of this forum...



But it's incorrect to say that Valencian is a dialect of Catalan, with Valencian being the older name, it's like saying Croatian is a dialect of Serbian or Urdu is a dialect of Hindi.

When names of macrolanguages are used, all subvariants should be included:

_Hindi/Urdu
Balear/Catalan/Valencian
Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian_


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## ernest_

Istriano said:


> But it's incorrect to say that Valencian is a dialect of Catalan, with Valencian being the older name, it's like saying Croatian is a dialect of Serbian or Urdu is a dialect of Hindi.
> 
> When names of macrolanguages are used, all subvariants should be included:
> 
> _Hindi/Urdu
> Balear/Catalan/Valencian
> Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian_



Well then we should say Scottish/Irish/North-American/English/South-African/Caribbean/Australian instead of just English, shouldn't we? Except that this would be very inconvinient and very inaccurate.


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## jamesjaime

It really confuses me, this Valencian language controversy ... I just thought the whole language was called Catalan.

Is it also true there is a movement called blaverism, where Valencians refuse to speak to Catalans in Catalan?


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## ernest_

Yes, it's very confusing. The language is called Catalan and it has two major variants: Eastern and Western Catalan. Valencian refers to a number of dialects of Western Catalan that are spoken in Valencia. I'm afraid we cannot discuss political topics in this forum, so I can't tell you much more than that


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## merquiades

jamesjaime said:


> It really confuses me, this Valencian language controversy ... I just thought the whole language was called Catalan.
> 
> Is it also true there is a movement called blaverism, where Valencians refuse to speak to Catalans in Catalan?



Blaverism is the denial of the unity of the Catalan language and the belief that Eastern and Western Catalan variants are two different languages. It's politically/socially/economically based (so we can't talk about it here but you can find many many articles about it on the net) but unfounded linguistically.  Linguistically-speaking both are two mutually understandable dialects of the same language, Catalan, similar to the situation between the Spanish of Spain and that of Argentina. Two different localized versions of the same thing. Two native speakers of each will pick up probably almost immediately where the other is from but that's about it.  I don't even think they would say, excuse me could you repeat? I don't understand what you're saying...


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## Samaruc

ernest_ said:


> Valencian refers to a number of dialects of Western Catalan that are spoken in Valencia.



Hmmm... Well, yes and no... Don't forget that "valencià" is the official name of the Catalan language in Valencia. And this refers to the whole language, including not only the dialects spoken in Valencia but also the ones spoken in the Balearic Islands, Catalonia and the rest of territories where our language is alive. So, from an official point of view, "català" and "valencià" are the same thing and share the same linguistic scope. Even more, when many Valencians say that someone is speaking "català", they will probably mean that this person is speaking specifically one of the eastern Catalonian dialects.

Anyway, from an academical point of view, the language is obviously one and has one name: català (in fact, no Valencian university has any graduate named "Valencian Filology" but "Catalan Filology").


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## Istriano

merquiades said:


> Blaverism is the denial of the unity of the Catalan language and the belief that Eastern and Western Catalan variants are two different languages. It's politically/socially/economically based (so we can't talk about it here but you can find many many articles about it on the net) but unfounded linguistically.  Linguistically-speaking both are two mutually understandable dialects of the same language, Catalan, similar to the situation between the Spanish of Spain and that of Argentina. Two different localized versions of the same thing. Two native speakers of each will pick up probably almost immediately where the other is from but that's about it.  I don't even think they would say, excuse me could you repeat? I don't understand what you're saying...



There are no orthographic differences between the Spanish in Argentina and Spain, but there are ortographic differences between Catalan and Valencian, which are comparable to those between Serbian and Croatian.

Valencian oppose the concept of ''Catalan countries'' many Catalans strive for (where ''Catalan countries'' stands for Catalonia, Valencia, Balears and parts of France and Sardinia) which is understandable, just like Croats oppose the concept of Big Serbia (which includes Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia-Hercegovina and most of Croatia).

There are no antiCastillian feelings in Balears and Valencian Community, and in Balears the language is even more distant from Castillian than the language used in Barcelona,
which means that antiCastillian feelings are not linguistically-based but are purely a political thing, similar to the antiRoman feelings in Padania.


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## ernest_

Samaruc said:


> Hmmm... Well, yes and no... Don't forget that "valencià" is the official name of the Catalan language in Valencia. And this refers to the whole language, including not only the dialects spoken in Valencia but also the ones spoken in the Balearic Islands, Catalonia and the rest of territories where our language is alive. So, from an official point of view, "català" and "valencià" are the same thing and share the same linguistic scope. Even more, when many Valencians say that someone is speaking "català", they will probably mean that this person is speaking specifically one of the eastern Catalonian dialects.



Good point. It didn't occur to me that "Valencian" can refer to the whole language. On occasion, I've heard Catalans claiming that they speak North-Valencian, but only jokingly


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## Bastaix

Istriano said:


> There are no orthographic differences between the Spanish in Argentina and Spain, but there are ortographic differences between Catalan and Valencian, which are comparable to those between Serbian and Croatian.
> 
> Valencian oppose the concept of ''Catalan countries'' many Catalans strive for (where ''Catalan countries'' stands for Catalonia, Valencia, Balears and parts of France and Sardinia) which is understandable, just like Croats oppose the concept of Big Serbia (which includes Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia-Hercegovina and most of Croatia).
> 
> There are no antiCastillian feelings in Balears and Valencian Community, and in Balears the language is even more distant from Castillian than the language used in Barcelona,
> which means that antiCastillian feelings are not linguistically-based but are purely a political thing, similar to the antiRoman feelings in Padania.



I don't know much about the sociolinguistic situation in Serbia and Croatia, but i think it cannot be extrapolated to here.

Our language is one of the languages ​​derived from Latin, in the same way that Italian, French, Romanian, Portuguese and Spanish. The two dialect groups of our language are the Western Catalan and Eastern Catalan. Valencian is a variant of the western variant of the language.

Anyway, we have to understand that "el valencià" is not a dialect of the "genuine" catalan, this thought it's nonsense. We, all the speakers, speak a variant of the language. As occurs with all languages​​, with the passing the centuries and the geographical dispersion, did that are not spoken in the same way everywhere.

Regarding the main question, valencian language (traditional name of the language since hundreds years ago in valencian country) is not castilianized. Perhaps some People use castilian words sometimes at the sacrifice of valencian words, get used to hear spanish a lot in media, for example: después (després), antes (abans), gasto (despesa), etc. But the languague is still genuine.

The term Catalan countries refers to the territories where Catalan language is spoken, not to a possible political union in future. Personally i don't like much this term, because València is not a catalan country, but i understand that we share a lot of things with Catalonia and Balear Islands.

No anticastillian feelings in Balears and Valencian community? who said that? XD

PD: Apologize for the possible spelling errors


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## Peano

The question is more simple than it seems. While Pompeu Fabra defined the lexicon of the new standard Catalan in 1932, Alcover & Moll published the famous *Diccionari Català-Valencià-Balear*, the title showing explicitly the tri-dialectal nature of Catalan.

Similarly, there was an important British linguist, Lancelot Hogben, who used to call *Anglo-American* to the language we ambiguously call English. (No need to speak of " Scottish/Irish/North-American/English/South-African/Caribbean/Australian "  )

Anyway, while Valencian may be read basically in a simple corresponce of one sound to one letter, like Castilian and Italian, the pronunciation of central Catalan is more complex, with a lot of "muted letters", a bit like French. This is a vital difference.

Finally, I think that Catalan as a whole, the more located in urban zones, the more castelianized (be in Barcelona, Valencia or Palma). And the more rural, the less castelianized.


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## Tomby

jamesjaime said:


> Hola a tothom,
> 
> He oido decir que el valenciano es un dialecto del catalan  muy muy influido por el castellano , tanto es que se considera más una mezcla del catalán de Barcelona y el castellano .
> 
> Es verdad?
> 
> James


Hi,
Permíteme que te responda en castellano, puesto que yo no domino el inglés para responderte correctamente y tú te has dirigido al foro en perfecto español.
Yo nací en tierras valencianas donde siempre se ha hablado el valenciano (3/4 partes aproximadamente de la actual Comunidad Valenciana es valencianoparlante) pero cuando yo era estudiante no estaba contemplado en el plan de estudios el estudio del valenciano. Ni que decir tiene que el valenciano es un dialecto más del catalán. No hay ninguna diferencia entre el habla de ambas orillas del río Ebro. Sí que hay diferencias entre el habla de una persona de Olot y otra de Elx (Elche) como sucede entre el español de Castro Urdiales y el del Puerto de Santa María.
¿Que está muy influenciado por el castellano? Sí claro, como el catalán hablado en Perpinyà (Perpignan) por el francés. Es lógico, piensa que es un territorio rodeado por zonas idiomáticas castellanas (Bajo Aragón, Castilla, La Mancha, Murcia y 1/4 de la propia Región Valenciana _castellana_).
Además ciertos sectores influyentes de Valencia (capital de la región) consideran al valenciano como una lengua de segundo orden, que sólo sirve para actos folclóricos y nada más, lo cual se plasma día a día en la paupérrima enseñanza del mismo. Resumiendo, en mi opinión, *no es una mezcla de catalán y castellano pero si es un catalán bastante empobrecido* por las carencias culturales, por los medios de comunicación y la política en general. Cuando voy a mi pueblo yo me siento forastero.
Aquí tienes un ejemplo de lo que escriben en valenciano un grupo de jóvenes menores de 25 años que se entiende que han realizado sus estudios de forma bilingüe. Ya sé que es un foro de fútbol pero aquí entra gente de todos los niveles. Dudo que en alguna comarca del sur de la Comunidad Valenciana la juventud en general escriba en valenciano de forma espontánea.
TT.


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## Istriano

Many Valencians (most of them) say they speak Valencian rather than Catalan, just like the speakers of Mirandês (2nd official language in Portugal) say: I speak Mirandês, and not I speak Astur-Leonese.
Speakers of Sri Lankan Tamil say: I speak Tamil even though Sri Lankan Tamil is closer to Malayalam linguistically than to contemporary Tamil Nadu (Indian) Tamil.


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## Peano

Peano said:


> Alcover & Moll published the famous *Diccionari Català-Valencià-Balear*, the title showing explicitly the tri-dialectal nature of Catalan.



Indeed the basic dialects of Catalan are properly 5:
- North dialect (Rosselló in South France)
- Central dialect (Barcelona, etc.) 
- South dialect (Valencia, etc.)
- West dialect (Lleida, etc.)
- East dialect (Balears)
* Beyond east dialect (Alghero in Sardinia).


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## Tomby

Peano said:


> ... Alcover & Moll published the famous *Diccionari Català-Valencià-Balear*, the title showing explicitly the tri-dialectal nature of Catalan.



Diccionari Català-Valencià-Balear
TT.


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