# I'm a Scot (equivalent for English person)



## Chasint

Hello

I have lived in England from birth. 

If a person from Scotland (man, woman or child) says to me "I'm a Scot and I love Scotland.", what can I say in return?

I could say "I am an Englishman and I love England" but this precludes women. Also, what would a child say?

Maybe I could say "I'm an *Angle*/ˈæŋɡəl/" but it sounds as though I'm discussing geometry.

I have heard an Asian person describe someone by saying "He is an English."

My question

What do people from other countries call a person who is specifically English rather than British*** and what should we call ourselves that would apply regardless of age or gender?

________________________________________________
** *This is an English-Only forum so, of course, I am not asking for descriptions in other languages.


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## fivejedjon

What's wrong with simply "I'm English"?


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## Loob

Hi Biffo

Since there isn't a gender-neutral noun for "an English person", I'd say "I'm English and I love England".

(I have the horrible feeling I've missed the point of your question.)


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## Chasint

Loob said:


> Hi Biffo
> 
> Since there isn't a gender-neutral noun for "an English person", I'd say "I'm English and I love England".
> 
> (I have the horrible feeling I've missed the point of your question.)


I'm afraid you have! 

For me there is a certain amount of pride in saying "I'm a Scot" and it has a much more dramatic effect than saying "I'm Scottish."

I specifically want to say "I'm a ______"

Also, what would a foreigner say? E.g. "I saw a Scot and a ________  having an argument."


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## JustKate

I've seen _Briton_ used this way in older (say, 1930s and earlier) books. Is that no longer a possibility? If so, too bad - it seemed pretty useful to me.


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## Loob

JustKate said:


> I've seen _Briton_ used this way in older (say, 1930s and earlier) books. Is that no longer a possibility? If so, too bad - it seemed pretty useful to me.


Oh, yes, it's a possibility, Kate - but "a Briton" (or "a Brit") doesn't mean "an English person".





Biffo said:


> I specifically want to say "I'm a ______"


Then (since you're a person of the masculine persuasion) your only option is "I'm an Englishman", Biffo.


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## Chasint

JustKate said:


> I've seen _Briton_ used this way in older (say, 1930s and earlier) books. Is that no longer a possibility? If so, too bad - it seemed pretty useful to me.


Hmm... The problem is that that smacks of "Ancient Briton" and they were the Celtic inhabitants of Britain before Anglo-Saxons like me arrived on the scene.

I think that "I'm a Briton" nowadays means I am a native of the British Isles. It doesn't narrow it down to being specifically from England.


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## JustKate

Loob said:
			
		

> Oh, yes, it's a possibility, Kate - but "a Briton" (or "a Brit") doesn't mean "an English person."



Yeah, I know that is all very, very tricky. I've never got all it figured out but I've learned that much.

How about _Englishman_, then (or _Englishwoman_, of course)? It's not gender-neutral, but then again, neither is Biffo.


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## Chasint

Loob said:


> Oh, yes, it's a possibility, Kate - but "a Briton" (or "a Brit") doesn't mean "an English person".Then (since you're a person of the masculine persuasion) your only option is "I'm an Englishman", Biffo.


In that case what will happen when Scotland separates from the UK?

At the border there will be a sign saying "Scots this way" and another saying what? "English men, women and children this way"

I know that the above is a facetious example but I'm looking for a gender-neutral and age-neutral term.


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## Loob

JustKate said:


> How about _Englishman_, then (or _Englishwoman_, of course)? It's not gender-neutral, but then again, neither is Biffo.


 

Like it, Kate!

(There are, of course, many other threads on the fact that we don't say "an English" or "a French" or "a Welsh")


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## Chasint

JustKate said:


> ...How about _Englishman_, then (or _Englishwoman_, of course)? It's not gender-neutral, but then again, neither is Biffo.


Yes but my point is that a Scottish child could say "I'm a Scot" but what could an English child say? They could not use "man" or "woman".


Here is perhaps a better example:

"There are three Scots over there - a man a woman and a child."

"There are three <Englishes> over there - a man a woman and a child."


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## JustKate

I would be very interested to see your question answered, but I'll also be kind of surprised because I think you're stuck with "I'm English and I love England." If _Briton/Brit_ doesn't work, I don't know what will - nothing I've ever read or heard. 

The Welsh have the same problem, right? And the French, for that matter. So it's not unique...


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## Chasint

JustKate said:


> I would be very interested to see your question answered, but I'll also be kind of surprised because I think you're stuck with "I'm English and I love England." If _Briton/Brit_ doesn't work, I don't know what will - nothing I've ever read or heard.
> 
> The Welsh have the same problem, right? And the French, for that matter. So it's not unique...


... and yet you can say "I'm an American"!

I too hope someone will come up with a solution


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## JustKate

Hey, I said it wasn't unique - I didn't say it was universal.


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## Chasint

JustKate said:


> Hey, I said it wasn't unique - I didn't say it was universal.


I know. I was just expressing my envy!


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## fivejedjon

Biffo said:


> I too hope someone will come up with a solution


There isn't one. It's as simple as that.


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## JulianStuart

I am an Englander, born in London.  Please don't tell me it's male specific and that its counterpart is Englandress   A precedent would be "I'm a New Zealander" or "I'm a Berliner" or "I'm a Hamburger"



 Well, actually I'm a dual citizen but that would be off-topic.


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## Chasint

JulianStuart said:


> I am an Englander, born in London.  Please don't tell me it's male specific and that its counterpart is Englandress   A precedent would be "I'm a New Zealander" or "I'm a Berliner" or "I'm a Hamburger"
> 
> 
> 
> Well, actually I'm a dual citizen but that would be off-topic.


Now we're talking! 

JS - I see that you moved from the UK to the US. Have you ever used or heard anyone using the term "Englander"?


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## George French

Biffo said:


> What do people from other countries call a person who is specifically English rather than British* and what should we call ourselves that would apply regardless of age or gender?


 
English; although we can always refer to ourselves as British. But some will get it wrong......

GF..

I will not go into the politics. And I can't speak for the rest of the world. Being Welsh, I make no further comment.


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## Chasint

George French said:


> English; although we can always refer to ourselves as British. But some will get it wrong......
> 
> GF..
> 
> I will not go into the politics. And I can't speak for the rest of the world. Being Welsh, I make no further comment.


Thanks George but I am looking for a noun not an adjective.


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## Beryl from Northallerton

Biffo said:


> I know. I was just expressing my envy!


I don't really think that it's anything to envy, Biffo. It strikes me  that taking pride in what is ultimately a historical accident and  something that was quite beyond one's control is simply inappropriate. 
It  would actually be more appropriate to take pride in having won a  massive payout on the lottery, because you would at least have recourse  to being able to say that you'd gone out and bought the ticket.
If  people really think that they've won the lottery of life by dint of  their birth location, blood line, tribal affiliation or cultural  heritage, then maybe they should consider making a charitable donation,  rather than rubbing their 'superiority' in the faces of others less  fortunately endowed. 

That's the miserablism out of the way. 'Englander' really only works when preceded by 'little', without which you just sound German. I agree with fivejedjon in that I think there's no solution to this problem, though I'm not altogether convinced that this is a problem.


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## JulianStuart

Biffo said:


> Now we're talking!
> 
> JS - I see that you moved from the UK to the US. Have you ever used or heard anyone using the term "Englander"?


Nope!  Only in WW2 movies parodying a German soldier referring to us!

Your specific question has never had time to come up for me: once I start explaining that England and Britain are different, most US eyes glaze over at the complexity of it all .  I am hoping to start a movement to make the term commonplace for folks with "Scot envy"


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## Chasint

JulianStuart said:


> Nope!  Only in WW2 movies parodying a German soldier referring to us!
> 
> Your specific question has never had time to come up for me: once I start explaining that England and Britain are different, most US eyes glaze over at the complexity of it all .  I am hoping to start a movement to make the term commonplace for folks with "Scot envy"


Well you have inspired me now.

It occurs to me that Americans routinely use the term _New Englander_ for natives of the corresponding region of northeastern United States.  They should understand it straight away.

Maybe you could try it and report back?


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## JulianStuart

Needless to say, it works as you expected, by analogy with New Englander, and was immediately understood, but never heard before (my Kansas-born wife as "test subject").


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## Chasint

JulianStuart said:


> Needless to say, it works as you expected, by analogy with New Englander, and was immediately understood, but never heard before (my Kansas-born wife as "test subject").


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## Pandohra

Scot is the abbreviation of Scottish so the english equivalent should be Eng. But I'm not sure if you want to be an Eng


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## Chasint

Pandohra said:


> Scot is the abbreviation of Scottish so the english equivalent should be Eng. But I'm not sure if you want to be an Eng


Haha!


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## natkretep

_Englander_ - that just sounds very German.

Of course, if you're talking to a Scot, you could call yourself a Sassenach.


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## Chasint

natkretep said:


> _Englander_ - that just sounds very German.
> 
> Of course, if you're talking to a Scot, you could call yourself a Sassenach.


Of course that's even more German. It means Saxon!

*Saxon* /ˈsæksən/n


a member of a West Germanic people who in Roman times spread from Schleswig across NW Germany to the Rhine. Saxons raided and settled parts of S Britain in the fifth and sixth centuries ad. In Germany they established a duchy and other dominions, which changed and shifted through the centuries, usually retaining the name Saxony
a native or inhabitant of Saxony
the Low German dialect of Saxony
any of the West Germanic dialects spoken by the ancient Saxons or their descendants
adj

of, relating to, or characteristic of the ancient Saxons, *the Anglo-Saxons, or their descendants*
*
*
Maybe the last bit is a get-out.


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## natkretep

True, but in this form, the meaning is more restricted, as the current WR Dictionary (Collins) has it:


> *Sassenach* /ˈsæsəˌnæk /, Scottish: -næx/
> _n
> Scot. sometimes __Irish_
> an English person or a Lowland Scot
> *Etymology*: 18th Century: from Scot Gaelic _Sasunnach,_ Irish _Sasanach,_from Late Latin _saxonēs_ Saxons


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## Chasint

natkretep said:


> True, but in this form, the meaning is more restricted, as the current WR Dictionary (Collins) has it:


Maybe it's worth considering. It would certainly be a talking point - especially if I put it on my passport.


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## ewie

It seems to me that the only solution to this 'problem' of yours would be for you to use the terms _English person_ [sing.] and _English people _[plu.].

Everyone else can carry on saying _I'm English_.


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## R1chard

'Englander' is right but not much used except perhaps in the phrase 'little Englander' when it takes on a derogatory connotation.


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## sound shift

In response to "I'm a Scot and I love Scotland", you could say, "I'm from south of the border", but the Scot will know that from your accent if you have already spoken, so you may have to deal with an "Aye. I ken."


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## Chasint

sound shift said:


> In response to "I'm a Scot and I love Scotland", you could say, "I'm from south of the border", but* the Scot will know that from your accent if you have already spoken*, so you may have to deal with an "Aye. I ken."


This reminds me of the old "Fresh fish sold here daily" joke 

_A man sees a fishmonger admiring the new sign above his shop: "Fresh fish sold here daily".
"That's too many words" says the man._
http://markwadsworth.blogspot.co.uk/2010/02/fresh-fish-sold-here-daily.html

Of course the problem with "south of the border" is that it only works if I am talking to a Scot. I'm looking for a word I can use internationally. If I said this in the USA, I imagine the reply would be a tuneful "Down Mexico way!" 

Also of course it would include 'Welshes' (!?)


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## Havfruen

natkretep said:


> _Englander_ - that just sounds very German.



That is also practically the Danish word for an English person. 
Perhaps you can start a thread in all languages to assess the possibilities for solving your query in various tongues.

Another proposal: Anglo


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## R1chard

Havfruen said:


> Another proposal: Anglo



'Angle' would be the appropriate noun and, in the absence of any common usage word, may even be what the OP is looking for. See http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/24769/Angle


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## Chasint

R1chard said:


> 'Angle' would be the appropriate noun and, in the absence of any common usage word, may even be what the OP is looking for. See http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/24769/Angle


Exactly. In fact I mentioned this in my original post:


Biffo said:


> ...Maybe I could say "I'm an *Angle*/ˈæŋɡəl/" but it sounds as though I'm discussing geometry...



The problem is - would anyone understand me?


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## JustKate

Havfruen said:


> That is also practically the Danish word for an English person.
> Perhaps you can start a thread in all languages to assess the possibilities for solving your query in various tongues.
> 
> Another proposal: Anglo



Etymologically _Anglo_ is fine, but there is a problem in that _Anglo_ is used here in the U.S. (and perhaps elsewhere?) both as a noun and an adjective by many people of Mexican and South American descent to refer to those of us of European descent.


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## R1chard

Biffo said:


> Exactly. In fact I mentioned this in my original post:


So you did. Sorry, it seems a long time ago 



> The problem is - would anyone understand me?


If you don't want to be mistaken for a geometric element you could spell it 'angel' instead


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## Sparky Malarky

Biffo,

Sometimes we just have to accept that there's no exact equivalent and get on with our lives.  

Just be glad you're not American.  We proudly say "I'm an American!" and we get complaints from Canadians, Mexicans, Brazilians, Chileans, and everyone else in South America for stealing part of the name of their continent for our own.  Yet what else could we call ourselves?  United Statsiens?


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## natkretep

No, I think _Anglo _​is wrong. The Scots claim that they're mainly the Anglo bit of the Anglo-Saxons, whereas the English are the Saxons. At least, that's what I've been told.


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## ewie

Sparky Malarky said:


> Biffo,
> 
> Sometimes we just have to accept that there's no exact equivalent and get on with our lives.


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## Chasint

Sparky Malarky said:


> Biffo,
> 
> Sometimes we just have to accept that there's no exact equivalent and get on with our lives.
> 
> Just be glad you're not American.  We proudly say "I'm an American!" and we get complaints from Canadians, Mexicans, Brazilians, Chileans, and everyone else in South America for stealing part of the name of their continent for our own.  Yet what else could we call ourselves?  United Statsiens?


I can assure you that this subject doesn't occupy my every waking moment. 

I had my reasons for opening the thread and they were linguistic rather than political. It seems from the response that others were interested.

I suspect that we will sooner or later be overtaken by events. More and more speakers of international English want an answer in my experience. I suspect that the default will be the noun "an English". We'll have to stop saying it's incorrect.


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## Loob

Who knows what the impact of the globalisation of English will be, Biffo?

Here and now, though, "an English" *is* incorrect.  It would be a pity if your thread left any of today's learners of English as a second language with the impression that it wasn't.


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## Keith Bradford

Biffo said:


> ... I suspect that the default will be the noun "an English"...



In how many centuries' time?  Because I've never heard it spoken yet.


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## Chasint

Keith Bradford said:


> In how many centuries' time?  Because I've never heard it spoken yet.


I have. My ex-girlfriend (from Malaysia) was using it some ten years ago. I currently live in a town with many language schools and a couple of universities. You'd be surprised what can be heard.

My impression is that it is used mostly by Asian students. Maybe one of them would like to comment?


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## Chasint

Loob said:


> Who knows what the impact of the globalisation of English will be, Biffo?
> 
> Here and now, though, "an English" *is* incorrect.  It would be a pity if your thread left any of today's learners of English as a second language with the impression that it wasn't.


Globalisation of English is a major concern these days. If you Google "Englishes" you will find many papers and discussions. British people don't claim that American English is 'wrong' although many elements are different. Maybe we will have to give up the idea of ownership.

If by "here" you are referring to Britain, then I agree. However in this country we are in a small minority of English speakers. Where do we draw the line? Is American English correct but Chinese English wrong?

My point is that all we have to do to keep things straight, on a forum such as this, is make it clear which variety of English we are describing. If you are interested in the globalisation debate here's an online article from Times Higher Education. Yes the title  is deliberately not 'correct' BE or AE.


_...Professor Jenkins [argues] that UK universities have largely failed to understand.While they may need to assess the linguistic ability of incoming foreign students, she explained, it is quite unreasonable to use tests that check whether they "conform to one particular form of native English"_
_*A word of advices: let speakers of Englishes do it their way, UK told*
_TIMES HIGHER EDUCATION -  *Matthew Reisz*
http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?storycode=419935


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## Cagey

In this forum, we deal with current usage according to the conventional authorities most learners of English and their teachers rely on.  The interesting topic of language change, where it comes from, and how it becomes acceptable is beyond the scope of this forum.   

People have made an effort to find a term that fits current standard usage, but have been unable to find one. 

 This thread is closed. 
Thank you to everyone who contributed.


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