# MSA in everyday speech: how does it sound?



## abusaf

Split from here. 

I don't agree that speaking Classical Arabic, or "written Arabic" sounds awkward. The thing that sounds awkward is when someone has not yet mastered a language and try to speak it, but this applies to all languages.

Speaking al-Fus7a in a everyday setting, assuming you speak it well, sounds professional and respectable. As al-Fus7a means first studying it since there is no one (or very very few) that actually has it as their native language.


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## elroy

abusaf said:
			
		

> Speaking al-Fus7a in a everyday setting, assuming you speak it well, sounds professional and respectable.


 Where do you live, Abusaf?  Are there lots of people around you who speak fus7a on an everyday basis?  Do they sound normal?  Do they walk into a supermarket and say, "3afwan, hal laka an tusaa3idani?"


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## abusaf

Haha. Generally most of the people that I know that speak Fus7a on a everyday basis are religious Arabs or converts that have learnt the language.

And no someone who uses Fus7a in his or her everyday dealings with people do not sound normal, since normal is what the majority does, and the majority do not speak this language. They do not however sound awkward.

I remember when I was Egypt once and an Egyptian brother tried to adress me in Fus7a, he was talking about Egyptian women (trying to convince me to marry from Syria lol), he said:
"النساء هنا ليس جميلون"
This definately sounded awkward, since he did not know how to speak it correctly. Then he said that I had to learn the Egyptian dialect, I wonder why?

Most people who say that speaking Fus7a sounds awkward or out of place, are not able to speak Fus7a fluently, and therefore try to make it seem like its not appropriate to use it in certain situations.

I personally prefer to use Fus7a, as it is:

1. More beautiful

2. Sounds more intellectual

3. More of a challenge

And lastly , whenever I use Fus7a, no matter the situation, I have never come across any استغراب or that someone doesnt understand me. On the contrary, people compliment it and say that more people should use this language on a daily basis.


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## Josh_

I agree with abusaf, it doesn't sound awkward.   Why would it sound awkward unless there were many grammatical errors and/or the person was unsure of what he/she was saying.  Maybe if one did not understand the colloquial response and was scrambling to come up with the right words in return would be an awkward situation, though.  You might be confusing awkward with pedantic or verbose, elroy.  I might think that if someone started to speak to me casually in fu7Ha he/she would sound pedantic, even snooty, but I would not think it awkward, nor would I feel awkward.


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## abusaf

Yes. And with regards to sounding pedantic or snooty, I think this also has to do with the tone. Because sometimes to joke around, I make my voice sound like Arabic newsbroadcasters while speaking Fus7a and clearly pronounce every syllable and case ending. However if someone speaks Fus7a in a everyday and relaxed manner, I don't think it would raise many eyebrows. I would like to hear if Josh agrees with me on this one.

Addition: I also believe the matter has to do with the person speaking it. If two Algerian friends meet, and one of them suddenly speaks in fus7a, it might be considered strange and maybe a little "mr.know-it-all" feeling. However if the person speaking fus7a is a buisnessman or a foreign person who does not have Arabic as his or her mother tongue, it would probably not even be noticed.


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## Josh_

Yes, I definitely agree.  The context of the situation is everything.  I should have included that in my last post.  In certain circumstances it may sound pedantic or out of place, but in other situations it would sound professional or like no big deal.


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## elroy

I meant "awkward." Even if it were spoken fluently and impeccably, it would *not* sound normal in everday speech. It would sound strange, stilted, unnatural, out of place.

As a child, I watched cartoons in Arabic, which anyone who is familiar with them knows are _all_ in (fluid, flawless) MSA. Obviously, by virture of their nature, they were mostly informal. Nevertheless, no one goes around talking like that, and if someone did, he would sound decidedly awkward.

I had a teacher who would go through these phases where he would insist on speaking MSA at all times. He would walk into our school cafeteria and order a sandwich in MSA. How did it sound? AWKWARD. Completely strange and out of the ordinary. And it had nothing to do with his linguistic competence. His sentences were fine in MSA, but they did not sound normal because no one speaks that way on an everyday basis.

An analogy can be made with Shakespearean English. Even if you were fluent in it, you would sound very strange indeed if you went around using _thee_'s and _thou_'s. (This analogy is not perfect, but most analogies aren't.)

I would like to address some of the points that were made in this thread: 


			
				abusaf said:
			
		

> I personally prefer to use Fus7a, as it is:
> 
> 1. More beautiful This is a question of taste.
> 
> 2. Sounds more intellectual That's not a coincidence. That's because it's used in *formal* contexts and should be reserved for those contexts only. Of course, sometimes when the topic of conversation is more academic and arcane MSA is used, but that's because lots of words and terms are not common enough to have made their way into colloquial vernacular, so MSA is needed. However, such conversations are not "everyday" conversations anyway so it's a moot point.
> 
> 3. More of a challenge I disagree. The dialects are just as complex and challenging to learn.





			
				Josh Adkins said:
			
		

> I might think that if someone started to speak to me casually in fu7Ha he/she would sound pedantic, even snooty, but I would not think it awkward, nor would I feel awkward.


To me, "casual fus7a" is an oxymoron. The situation you describe is so rare I don't even know if it's worth considering. The only person who I can recall ever trying to "speak fus7a casually" was the abovementioned teacher - and it did not sound good. 


			
				abusaf said:
			
		

> Because sometimes to joke around, I make my voice sound like Arabic newsbroadcasters while speaking Fus7a and clearly pronounce every syllable and case ending.


 Yes, everyone does this from time to time. But look at the title of the thread. We're talking about MSA in everyday speech. 


			
				abusaf said:
			
		

> However if the person speaking fus7a is a buisnessman or a foreign person who does not have Arabic as his or her mother tongue, it would probably not even be noticed.


 When foreigners speech fus7a, it is noticed. And I'm not talking about their accent or possible grammatical mistakes. When foreigners speak a dialect, it may sound "foreign" because of mistakes but other than that it sounds normal. When a foreigner says, "uridu an athhaba ila 'l-bayti," it is definitely noticeable. 

I don't follow the "businessmen" argument at all. I would think that businessmen speak to each other in colloquial Arabic, except for technical and field-specific jargon for which MSA may be needed (cf. the above points I made regarding this). 


			
				Josh Adkins said:
			
		

> but in other situations it would sound professional or like no big deal.


 Yes, in contexts like formal lectures, governmental meetings, etc. Those, however, do not fall under the category "everyday speech." I'd like to draw your attention once again to the title of the thread. We're not talking about official business meetings here; we're talking about shopping at the supermarket and hanging out at the park.


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## Josh_

> It would sound strange, stilted, unnatural, out of place.
> 
> ...
> 
> Completely strange and out of the ordinary.
> 
> ...
> 
> they did not sound normal because no one speaks that way on an everyday basis.


Strange, unnatural, out of place -- yes, but awkward, no.  Awkward usually involves embarrasment or difficulty in handling (something unwieldly for example).  Did you feel embarrassed when you heard those people talk in MSA?  Did they feel embarrassed?

If someone spoke to me in MSA, I would not feel awkward, or embarrassed, unless they started bringing up things about me that I didn't want others to know.  I might think it was stange and out-of-place, though.  Same thing with Shakespearean English. 

I guess I don't understand your definition of "awkward?"  But, to me, it is not synonymous with unnatural, strange, not normal, or out-of-place.



> To me, "casual fus7a" is an oxymoron.


Reread my words in that post carefully.  Nowhere did I say that FusHa was casual.  I said that if someone spoke to me casually in FusHa, in other words if it were a regular, mundane, every-day speech type of situation like someone asking me about my day. Then the decidedly strictured and formal FusHa would seen strange and out of place.  I never qualified the noun FusHa with an adjective.  I was qualifying the situation/scenario, which was implicit (I thought anyway), with an adverb, setting the stage in which the odd use of FusHa would be out of place.


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## abusaf

1. You are confusing awkward with abnormal. The normal scenario is for someone to use his local dialect. However, this does not mean that it sounds awkward to speak correctly. 

2. _"More of a challenge I disagree. The dialects are just as complex and challenging to learn."'

_I assume you're joking? Dialects don't have special forms for feminine plural. They don't have case endings. Etc Etc. The very idea of a dialect is making it easier to use it. 

3. When I wrote the reasons why I choose to speak in Fus7a, this was not for you to comment, these were my personal reasons and not for anyone to analyze. I feel that when somebody speaks in Fus7a, he sounds smarter.

4. With regards to Shakespearian English, then no, this analogy does not work. Why not? Simply because if you live in America or Canada or England, you're not going to hear anyone speaking like that. However, in Arabic countries you are going to hear al-Fus7a everyday, on the news, in the mosques, in schools, etc. So its a big difference. It's part of the society.

By the way, there are places in al-Medinah an-Nabawiyah in Saudi Arabia where all people speak al-fus7a. It's around the universities where you have tens of thousands foreign students.


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## elroy

Josh Adkins said:
			
		

> I guess I don't understand your definition of "awkward?" But, to me, it is not synonymous with unnatural, strange, not normal, or out-of-place.


 I meant "awkward" as in "lacking grace." (I just looked through several online dictionaries and that's the closest entry in meaning to what I meant). Perhaps I didn't choose the best word - but what I meant to say is that using MSA in everyday speech is not fitting - and yes, I usually feel really strange and uncomfortable trying to communicate with a foreigner (or anyone else, for that matter) in MSA. I don't feel _embarrassed_ - but I feel ... awkward. It doesn't feel right. It's affected, unusual, unbecoming...

That's what I tried to summarize with the word "awkward," but I see how it was misleading. Perhaps there's no word to adequately describe the feeling. 


> Reread my words in that post carefully. Nowhere did I say that FusHa was casual. I said that if someone spoke to me casually in FusHa, in other words if it were a regular, mundane, every-day speech type of situation like someone asking me about my day. Then the decidedly strictured and formal FusHa would seen strange and out of place. I never qualified the noun FusHa with an adjective. I was qualifying the situation/scenario, which was implicit (I thought anyway), with an adverb, setting the stage in which the odd use of FusHa would be out of place.


 Ok, I misunderstood what you were trying to say. I thought you were taking it for granted that "speaking casually in fus7a" was a mundane occurrence.


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## elroy

abusaf said:
			
		

> 1. You are confusing awkward with abnormal. The normal scenario is for someone to use his local dialect. However, this does not mean that it sounds awkward to speak correctly.


 I hope that by now I have sufficiently explained what I meant by "awkward." By the way, speaking in a dialect is no less correct than speaking in MSA. 



> I assume you're joking? Dialects don't have special forms for feminine plural. They don't have case endings. Etc Etc. The very idea of a dialect is making it easier to use it.


 No, I'm not joking. There are complex features of dialects that doen't exist in MSA - for example, different ways to express different verb tenses that go beyond the simple tenses that MSA houses. But anyway, this is another discussion.  


> 3. When I wrote the reasons why I choose to speak in Fus7a, this was not for you to comment, these were my personal reasons and not for anyone to analyze. I feel that when somebody speaks in Fus7a, he sounds smarter.


 I did not comment on your preference. I commented on the reasons that you gave, which you stated as facts. You said, and I quote, "I personally prefer to use Fus7a, *as it is*" and not "as I feel that it is." Furthermore, everyone in this forum is free to respond to any comment that any forum member makes. I can't read your mind and know what you don't want commented on, so if you don't want anyone to address a certain point don't make it. 


> 4. With regards to Shakespearian English, then no, this analogy does not work. Why not? Simply because if you live in America or Canada or England, you're not going to hear anyone speaking like that. However, in Arabic countries you are going to hear al-Fus7a everyday, on the news, in the mosques, in schools, etc. So its a big difference. It's part of the society.


 I said that the analogy was not perfect. The point I was trying to make was that speaking MSA on an everyday basis sounds just as _unusual_ as speaking Shakespearean English on an everyday basis.


> By the way, there are places in al-Medinah an-Nabawiyah in Saudi Arabia where all people speak al-fus7a. It's around the universities where you have tens of thousands foreign students.


 I assume that many of these foreigners learned MSA first and haven't mastered a dialect yet, so they're hardly evidence against the "awkwardness" (the way I meant it) of MSA. In fact, that was the whole point that led to this discussion: I mentioned that many foreigners use MSA because that's all they know or all they're comfortable with but it sounds funny to natives. On another note, I have a feeling "all people" is an overstatement.


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## CarlosPerezMartinez

elroy said:
			
		

> I assume that many of these foreigners learned MSA first and haven't mastered a dialect yet, so they're hardly evidence against the "awkwardness" (the way I meant it) of MSA.


 
I agree with Elroy in this point. Being a non-native of Arabic I can't tell if MSA sounds awkward or not. For me it sounds quite natural specially when I see Arabic TV channels or I listen to radio stations talking in MSA about all kind of subjects. I understand that two natives sharing the same dialect will find it strange to talk together in MSA (like for me would be to talk in English with a fellow Spaniard). But on the other hand MSA is the only way we foreigners have to approach Arabs. It is very hard to learn a dialect before having a proper understanding of MSA. I wish most Arabs were able to talk MSA. My experience tells me that it is also hard for them to talk in MSA.


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## cherine

CarlosPerezMartinez said:
			
		

> I wish most Arabs were able to talk MSA. My experience tells me that it is also hard for them to talk in MSA.


My wish too 
I think most of the apparent tension/misunderstanding of this discussion could've been avoided if someone has remembered to state who's speaking MSA in everyday speech.

I'll take Elroy's defenition : in supermarkets, between friends... and I'll give a very little example :
If a friend of mine says :
sabaa7u'l khayri, kayfa 7aaluki , instead of
sabaa7 elkheir, 3amla eih/eih akhbarek...
I would laugh, I'll think (s)he's either jokking or has gone nuts.
Whereas, if a froeigner addresses me in MSA, I'll take it very normal, because I'll simply guess that this is the Arabic they know.
Fus7a in everyday speech is normal and ok if between foreigners and arabic speakers, but you'll not see a native Arabic speaker (with the exception maybe of people like mentioned by Abusaf, who live in Al-Madinah) use MSA to buy bread, ask for direction, talk to their family/freinds...

On more note : speaking in News, University, Mosques, Speeches... is not exactly what would come to mind as equivalent for "everyday speech", those are rather special contexts.


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## abusaf

Speaking Fus7a, or MSA, on an everyday basis, is, like I've said acouple of times, not normal, since it is the not what the majority of people do. It does not however sound awkward or ungraceful. The only people I've heard say this are people who for some reason or other do not like al-Fus7a, they think its reactionary and a part of history.
Other people, all from religious Muslims, to linguistics, to people on the street, all love this language and are very happy to hear it.
When I adress people in Fusha, in situations that don't really call for this language to be used, I've often been told by people that they are ashamed of their use of the colloquial dialect and lacking Fus7a skills.

I myself am not Arabic, so if I were to meet a Syrian, or a Moroccan, and I started talking to him in the Egyptian dialect, this would be weirder to me, since none of us are Egyptian!

Thats my opinion.


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## cherine

abusaf said:
			
		

> Speaking Fus7a, or MSA, on an everyday basis, is, like I've said acouple of times, not normal, since it is the not what the majority of people do. It does not however sound awkward or ungraceful.


No one -as much as I understood what's been posted here- said it's ungraceful, nor awkward in the meaning of ungraceful, just not the normal/regular thing between natives.



> When I adress people in Fusha, in situations that don't really call for this language to be used, I've often been told by people that they are ashamed of their use of the colloquial dialect and lacking Fus7a skills.
> I myself am not Arabic, so if I were to meet a Syrian, or a Moroccan, and I started talking to him in the Egyptian dialect, this would be weirder to me, since none of us are Egyptian!
> Thats my opinion.


And I respect your opinion.
I just would like to draw your attention that we're saying almost the same thing 
Foreigners who speak in Fus7a are not seen as awkaward, nor strange. In fact, and as you said, people admire their ability of speaking fus7a.
But natives don't use this level of language in their daily life, it would sound pedantic and artificial. And, instead of helping in communication -as language is supposed to do- it will simply lead to mockery (like the example I gave, and the teacher Elroy spoke about).

This is just a tiny difference : *who* is using MSA for daily life purposes, but it's a major difference.

That's my opinion


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## abusaf

cherine said:
			
		

> I'll take Elroy's defenition : in supermarkets, between friends... and I'll give a very little example :
> If a friend of mine says :
> sabaa7u'l khayri, kayfa 7aaluki , instead of
> sabaa7 elkheir, 3amla eih/eih akhbarek...
> I would laugh, I'll think (s)he's either jokking or has gone nuts.



That's not the point though. Because you said if a friend of yours started speaking Fus7a. If she's a friend of yours then that would mean that you know she speaks Egyptian. So the reason why you would laugh or think she's gone insane is because she changes the language. If a Egyptian friend of yours would start speaking to you in the Iraqi dialect all of a sudden, it would seem weird too! Or if two German friends were talking and all of a sudden one of them started adressing the other in English, it would seem weird. This does not mean that the Iraqi dialect or the English language are weird or awkward, it means that if someone you know changes the language he or she uses, it's gonna seem weird, even if you understand it. 
However if you met some for the first time and they adress you and everyone using al-Fus7a, Arab or non-Arab, I don't think it would be weird.


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## cherine

It would be weird if that person speaking MSA is Egyptian or from any other Arab country and prefers speaking MSA to Egyptian.
Yes, it would seem strange to me.


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## panjabigator

Abusaf what dialect do you speak?


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## abusaf

I don't speak any dialect. If pushed against the wall I could probably speak Egyptian and Syrian dialect. But I honestly feel so awkward speaking them so I try not to.


It's like when someone from Britian starts speaking a New York Harlem accent, it just feels fake.


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## elroy

Abusaf, the fact that Arabic is not your native language is very telling. Until now I assumed - for some reason - that you were a native, and accordingly, I found some of the claims that you were making somewhat strange. Knowing that you are not a native helps put things in perspective. 

I regret to tell you that MSA in everyday speech sounds strange _no matter what the circumstances_. I would much rather an Iraqi spoke to me in Iraqi than in MSA. Iraqi, although not my dialect, sounds normal - and suitable - in everyday speech. MSA does not. 

I seem to get the impression that you consider MSA "another possibility" for everyday speech - tantamount to Egyptian, Qatari, or Tunisian. It is not. No native speaker of Arabic consistently uses MSA on an everyday basis. Arabic is truly unique among diglossia languages in that its standard variety is, with remarkable consistently, reserved for formal registers - as opposed to, say, Hochdeutsch, which is spoken by many native speakers of German on an everyday basis. The only times two native speakers of Arabic speak to each other in MSA is when one person's dialects is *incomprehensible* to the other - and even then the speaker of the incomprehensible dialect first tries to speak the other dialect if he can, because that would sound smooth and fitting whereas MSA would not. Think of it this way: MSA is resorted to among native speakers only when there is absolutely no other option, bearing in mind that in such circumstances it doesn't cease to sound odd.


			
				abusaf said:
			
		

> The only people I've heard say this are people who for some reason or other do not like al-Fus7a, they think its reactionary and a part of history.


 This is a dangerous, inaccurate, and sweeping statement. I still maintain that MSA sounds unnatural (notice that I am refraining from using the word "awkward" so as to avoid misunderstanding) in everyday speech, yet the last think I would say is that it is "part of history." On the contrary, I continually strive to inform people that MSA is not a "dead language." It is a living language; it continues to be used day in and day out. The only difference is that it is not used in informal registers. 


			
				cherine said:
			
		

> No one -as much as I understood what's been posted here- said it's ungraceful, nor awkward in the meaning of ungraceful, just not the normal/regular thing between natives.


 Well, I did in fact say that I meant "lacking grace" when I said "awkward" but that was because that was the closest dictionary entry I found that kind of expressed what I meant to say. I admit, my choice of words was not the best - what I meant to say was not that the speaker would be expressing himself awkwardly in that his words would be clumsy or awkwardly delivered, but rather that the _situation_ would be awkward (hence, "MSA sounds awkward in everyday speech" and not "the speaker sounds awkward") because it's unusual - and uncomfortable (in my experience). 


			
				abusaf said:
			
		

> I've often been told by people that they are *ashamed of their use of the colloquial dialect* and lacking Fus7a skills.


 I'm sorry, but such an attitude is nonsensical.  Competence in fus7a is a noble goal, but feeling ashamed of one's dialect is ludicrous.  Dialects are natural developments and exist in every language. Should French people be ashamed of speaking French and not Latin? The development is the same, with the exception that MSA, as opposed to Latin, continues to be used in formal registers and French, as opposed to colloquial Arabic, has been standardized as a language. But linguistically the situations are identical. Each of the dialects has its own vocabulary, grammar, syntax, and idioms that set it apart from other dialects. My mother tongue is Palestinian Arabic, not MSA, as you can see in my profile - and I am unconditonally proud of that!


			
				abusaf said:
			
		

> However if you met some for the first time and they adress you and everyone using al-Fus7a, *Arab or non-Arab*, I don't think it would be weird.


 Not true - it would be weird enough coming from a foreigner, and most certainly weird coming from an Arab. 


			
				cherine said:
			
		

> Fus7a in everyday speech is normal and ok if between foreigners and arabic speakers


 Fus7a in everyday speech may be _expected_ of foreigners, but it may be misleading to say that it is "normal and ok" because that gives the impression that it's not "auffällig" (I'm sorry; I can only think of the German word. It means that something "sticks out" or "catches your attention" because it's unusual.) It drives me nuts when Germans or Spanish people or French people say things like, "Well, no native says that, but since you're a foreigner it's ok." As a learner of a foreign language I want my command of the language to come as *close* as possible to that of a native. Our advice to non-natives should be the following: We are tolerant and understanding so we are eternally happy to accommodate you and speak to you in MSA if need be; nevertheless, if you want to sound as much like a native as possible you should learn a dialect if you can. A non-native who speaks to me in Egyptian sounds much more "native-like" than one who speaks to me in MSA - despite the fact that I am not Egyptian.


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## abusaf

Elroy, you speak in too broad terms. This is all YOUR opinion. You think that it does not sound right. This does not make it a fact. 

Al-Fus7a is a complete language (unlike the dialects), it has words and patterns to satisfy every speakers requests. It is, in addition to that, understood in every Arabic country. Hence, speaking it is perfectly acceptable, even though "some" people might fight it. 

The attitude which you show towards using MSA is certainly not representative of any Arab group. And to all students of Arabic: speaking MSA in any circumstance is acceptable and very often applauded.

And me personally never studied Arabic to sound like a native speaker on the street. I rather sound like the 'ulamaa, and politicians and generally أهل العلم


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## Josh_

First off all, to those who may be unsure, my only contention here was the _awkward_ use of the word awkward.  But seeing some of the sentiments here I guess I just don't understand where they come from or the logic behind it.  

It sounds to me, elroy, that you are ashamed of MSA.  You would rather an Iraqi speak Iraqi and risk not understanding, than communicating via MSA?  MSA is a last resort that is used only when every other option is explored?  Those to me seem like absurd notions?  If I were an outsider looking in, I  would think that there is some sort of taboo about speaking MSA, as if it were a crime and something to be ashamed of.  

If it is so horrible, why son't they just teach dialects in schools instead of MSA, or at least teach the dialect firsts, and then MSA as a secondary, with the caveat that it is strange and you will probably make a native feel uncomfortable by speaking it.

I agree with abusaf, that everyone has his/her opinion -- some may find it strange, while others do not.  There are, after all, 200+ million speakers and I don't think we can say definitively that all find MSA strange.  Further, I would think that many natives understand that foreigners generally learn MSA first, and as such the use of it by foreigners would not be strange -- since this is there experiences with foreigners.  I have had people tell me that are surprised that I know a dialect because most non-natives they runinto have spoken only MSA.  Who knows?  Just my $.02.


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## Anatoli

I am a beginner but I knowing some grammatical features of MSA that are never used in spoken dialects, we can assume that speakers of very different Arabic dialects would never use them either, it's probably that part that makes the use of MSA unnatural among native speakers (e.g. case endings, a larger set of personal pronouns), there are possibly some casual expressions that have become to known to most Arabs but are not considered part of standard Arabic.

In my textbooks I see this comments every now and again, something like - this or that is not used in spoken dialects. Also, phrase books introduce a version of Arabic, (very close to MSA) that doesn't have the standard grammar features of MSA but common vocab.  

It's rather a question, not a statement 

On the usage of MSA, 2 native Arabs (a Lebanese and a Jordanian) helped me to to overcome some pronunciation issues and insisted on reading all the case endings, they expected me to speak MSA, not a dialect.


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## elroy

abusaf said:
			
		

> You think that it does not sound right.


 I never said it didn't sound "right." I said it sounded strange in certain contexts. 


> Al-Fus7a is a complete language (unlike the dialects)


 Could you please tell me what makes the dialects "incomplete"? 


> And to all students of Arabic: speaking MSA in any circumstance is acceptable and very often applauded.


 I would be interested in seeing survey results or statistics to back up this claim. 


> I rather sound like the 'ulamaa, and politicians and generally أهل العلم


 Even those people speak in a dialect when they're at home telling their families how their day went.


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## elroy

Let me start by saying that a question of "how something sounds" represents an opinion by definition. I didn't think I had to explicitly say that. On the same token, I have been approaching your views as opinions as well, without the need for an explicit reference. All the same, I'll state it clearly: I am speaking my opinion, and backing it up with my experience as a native speaker of Arabic. 


			
				Josh Adkins said:
			
		

> It sounds to me, elroy, that you are ashamed of MSA.


 I'm sorry you got that impression. That's the last thing that I wished to communicate! I really don't know what would have led you to come to that conclusion. 


> You would rather an Iraqi speak Iraqi and risk not understanding, than communicating via MSA? MSA is a last resort that is used only when every other option is explored? Those to me seem like absurd notions? If I were an outsider looking in, I would think that there is some sort of taboo about speaking MSA, as if it were a crime and something to be ashamed of.


 What in my words indicated that I find it a "crime or something to be ashamed of"? I would simply prefer - in an everyday, informal, relaxed context - to speak or listen to a dialect. Yes, I would rather an Iraqi spoke to me in Iraqi because it would sound more natural. There might be a few words I wouldn't understand, and in those circumstances my Iraqi interlocutor could perhaps say _those particular words_ in MSA (or in my dialect, if he knew it). In other situations, in which the dialect would be nearly incomprehensible to me - Tunisian or Algerian, for example - I would, of course, prefer MSA because I'd have to have every other word "translated." I'm afraid I may not be able to explain just how weird it sounds, to me - but I can say with confidence that my opinion is not so extreme so as to suggest that I see speaking MSA as a crime! 

Let me give another real-life example: My cousin's husband is Egyptian. Although he now lives in Jerusalem, he still speaks, for the most part, in his dialect. Occasionally he'll use a word, phrase, or expression I'm not familiar with. When that happens, he just explains it and all is good. This is much more preferable than having him speak MSA just to make sure we always understood every single word he said (which, of course, wouldn't be the case anyway because there are words and phrases we don't know in MSA that he might use). 



> If it is so horrible, why son't they just teach dialects in schools instead of MSA, or at least teach the dialect firsts, and then MSA as a secondary, with the caveat that it is strange and you will probably make a native feel uncomfortable by speaking it.


 I don't necessarily feel that it's always more efficient to teach MSA first - but again, that's my opinion and a slightly different topic. 


> There are, after all, 200+ million speakers and I don't think we can say definitively that all find MSA strange.


 I can say with a good degree of confidence that the vast majority of native speakers of Arabic would find it strange to be addressed in MSA - except in certain extenuating circumstances (incomprehensibility, foreign speaker not familiar with a dialect, etc.). It's not a coincidence that Cherine and I, the only two natives who have taken part in this discussion, continue to insist that it sounds strange in everyday speech. 


> Further, I would think that many natives understand that foreigners generally learn MSA first, and as such the use of it by foreigners would not be strange -- since this is there experiences with foreigners. I have had people tell me that are surprised that I know a dialect because most non-natives they runinto have spoken only MSA.


 I wonder what I said that contradicts that? But speaking in MSA is like one of those things that "marks" you as a foreigner. If you're fine with that, great!


----------



## elroy

Anatoli said:
			
		

> ...we can assume that speakers of very different Arabic dialects would never use them either, it's probably that part that makes the use of MSA unnatural among native speakers (e.g. case endings, a larger set of personal pronouns),


 This is a very good point - indeed, you can say the simplest of phrases, tack on a case ending, and sound like you're a TV reporter!  


> On the usage of MSA, 2 native Arabs (a Lebanese and a Jordanian) helped me to to overcome some pronunciation issues and insisted on reading all the case endings, they expected me to speak MSA, not a dialect.


 In everyday speech?


----------



## CarlosPerezMartinez

Does modern Hebrew sound awkward? As far as I know Hebrew was lost and it had to be reinvented as a modern language and taught in schools until it became the mother language of new speakers.


----------



## abusaf

elroy said:
			
		

> I can say with a good degree of confidence that the vast majority of native speakers of Arabic would find it strange to be addressed in MSA.


Hehe, unless you can provide statistics, speak for yourself. I don't believe that for a second. I have alot of experience in adressing Arabs in Fus7a, probably more than you, and people are almost always happy. 

And when I joke around and say;

ربما يتعيّن علي أن أتعلم لهجتكم

ِThe response is ALWAYS, without any exception:

كلا! خليك في الفصحى

ِAnd when I was in Egypt for example, and I asked someone what a particular word in their dialect meant, they were always disturbed by the question, and gave me a response like "Why do you wanna know? Its not real Arabic anyway". Everyone I met was very proud of Fus7a, but like I said, were very sad because of their own lacking skills in speaking it.

*And let me state this again, most of the people who don't like to be adressed in MSA, are the people who are unable to respond in MSA, so of course they don't like it.* I don't want to be adressed in German, because I don't know what to say back. 



> It's not a coincidence that Cherine and I, the only two natives who have taken part in this discussion, continue to insist that it sounds strange in everyday speech.



Well that's not really true though. Cherine said that if a foreigner talked to her in MSA she would not regard it as strange. You are the only one who has directed this unconditional criticism towards MSA. 



> But speaking in MSA is like one of those things that "marks" you as a foreigner. If you're fine with that, great!


I'm very fine with that. I'm not an Arab and I have never tried to become one, I'm a foreigner who has studied Arabic, and thats exactly what I want to be.


----------



## elroy

CarlosPerezMartinez said:
			
		

> Does modern Hebrew sound awkward? As far as I know Hebrew was lost and it had to be reinvented as a modern language and taught in schools until it became the mother language of new speakers.


 No, it doesn't - because it's used normally and frequently in all contexts.  Maybe it sounded strange in the beginning, before it was "revived," but by now it sounds completely ordinary.  Until such a "reinvention" happens to MSA, it will continue to sound strange in everyday speech.


----------



## CarlosPerezMartinez

elroy said:
			
		

> Maybe it sounded strange in the beginning, before it was "revived," but by now it sounds completely ordinary. Until such a "reinvention" happens to MSA, it will continue to sound strange in everyday speech.


 
You see?


----------



## jester.

abusaf, you are aware that you already gave the answer and that you are just dwelling upon the use of the term "awkward"?



> And no someone who uses Fus7a in his or her everyday dealings with people do not sound normal, since normal is what the majority does, and the majority do not speak this language. They do not however sound awkward.


----------



## elroy

abusaf said:
			
		

> Hehe, unless you can provide statistics, speak for yourself. I don't believe that for a second.


 How convenient of you not to quote me completely. This is what I said:


> I can say with a good degree of confidence that the vast majority of native speakers of Arabic would find it strange to be addressed in MSA - *except in certain extenuating circumstances (incomprehensibility, foreign speaker not familiar with a dialect, etc.)*.


 so your experiences do not contradict this statement because you are a foreign speaker. Furthermore, your statement was sweeping and misleading: "speaking MSA *in any circumstance* is acceptable and very often applauded." My comment about statistics was rhetorical, because I know for a fact that it's not "acceptable" (in the sense of normal, ordinary) in _*all*_ circumstances. 


> ِAnd when I was in Egypt for example, and I asked someone what a particular word in their dialect meant, they were always disturbed by the question, and gave me a response like "Why do you wanna know? *Its not real Arabic anyway*".


 I think this is a key sentence. These people are ashamed of their dialects, and that's why they want you to continue speaking in MSA. I am not ashamed of MSA; I just find it fitting in certain contexts and not in others. Until this discussion, I thought that was to be taken for granted!  


> And let me state this again, most of the people who don't like to be adressed in MSA, are the people who are unable to respond in MSA, so of course they don't like it.


 Just for the record, I am perfectly able to respond in MSA. 


> Cherine said that if a foreigner talked to her in MSA she would not regard it as strange. You are the only one who has directed this unconditional criticism towards MSA.


 I would not regard it as strange in the sense that it's expected. Please read my comments again, more closely. Cherine and I agreed with each other, I'm pretty sure - we just said the same thing in two different ways. Besides, I have not *criticized* MSA - once again, I reiterate: MSA is a great language; it's beautiful, poetic, rich, and complex. However, it is not always the most appropriate variety of the Arabic language to use. Just google "Arabic diglossia" for more information. 


> I'm very fine with that. I'm not an Arab and I have never tried to become one, I'm a foreigner who has studied Arabic, and thats exactly what I want to be.


 That's completely fine and understandable! As long as you don't extend that preference to hasty generalizations about the preferability of Arabic in all circumstances, by anyone and everyone - I think we may finally be seeing eye to eye on something.


----------



## elroy

CarlosPerezMartinez said:
			
		

> You see?


Do I see what?   Am I missing something?


----------



## Anatoli

To Elroy,

No, they didn't say so but were both adamant that I need to learn what they called proper/common Arabic first - fus7a.


To CarlosPerezMartinez,

Arabs need to agree on a common language, IMHO. If there were more unity that would have happened already. In a thread I started or rather was split from one of my posts - "Future of MSA", I asked this question. Either MSA or *its simplified version* could become a common standard language used in most situations, not just very formal ones or a dialect or a group of dialects could be upgraded for a higher status. Judging on other people's posts and materials I read, MSA is not absorbing dialects or foreign words (or not absorbing enogh) as it does with other languages (spoken and written go hand in hand - your speech affects your writing) because there are purists who want to keep MSA clean and as close to Qur'anic Arabic as possible because it is a tradition, history, etc. 

China didn't have a common spoken language until the beginning of the 20th century, dialects still differ much more than they do in Arabic. Then Putonghua - Common Speech (aka Mandarin) was chosen - a dialect based on a mixture of Northern dialects, primarily Beijing. This dialect has the largest number of speakers who, at least understand it or have no problem adjusting. All other Chinese had to learn Mandarin. Well, China is one centralised country, not the case with the Arab world, so language development is hard to control or predict.


----------



## abusaf

j3st3r said:
			
		

> abusaf, you are aware that you already gave the answer and that you are just dwelling upon the use of the term "awkward"?



I have no idea what you mean. I said someone who speaks MSA in everyday dealings does not sound normal, since normal is what the majority does. If someone speaks Swahili in Norway, it's not normal, because the majority does not speak it, it does not however sound wrong.



> because I know for a fact that it's not "acceptable" (in the sense of normal, ordinary) in _*all*_ circumstances.



Wow, hehe, acceptable = normal is a definition I've never heard before. 
If we look at a real dictionary, it says: 

Acceptable -  Adequate to satisfy a need, requirement, or standard; satisfactory.

=)


----------



## elroy

Anatoli said:
			
		

> No, they didn't say so but were both adamant that I need to learn what they called proper/common Arabic first - fus7a.


 I wholeheartedly agree - except that I wouldn't call MSA "proper Arabic" because that would imply that the dialects are "improper." However, it is my belief that any foreigner who desires to truly "know" the Arabic language needs to learn *both* MSA *and* at least one dialect (without one or the other his knowledge of the language is incomplete). 


> Arabs need to agree on a common language, IMHO. If there were more unity that would have happened already.


 Perhaps. Your perspective is interesting because from what I've heard (correct me if I'm wrong, but don't go too far off-topic! ) there's not much dialectal variation in Russia - despite how large it is. At least there aren't enough differences to impede mutual understanding. This would make sense in light of what you've said because Russia is one country. 


> because there are purists who want to keep MSA clean and as close to Qur'anic Arabic as possible because it is a tradition, history, etc.


 Absolutely. This is a crucial factor. Without it the dialects would probably be considered standard today.


----------



## elroy

abusaf said:
			
		

> it does not however sound wrong.


 Nonbody said it did. 


> Wow, hehe, acceptable = normal is a definition I've never heard before.
> If we look at a real dictionary, it says:
> 
> Acceptable - Adequate to satisfy a need, requirement, or standard; satisfactory.


 Context is everything. Dictionaries are inadequate. In this context, considering that your statement was presumably a rebuttal of my advice to non-natives to learn a dialect if possible, I assumed that you understood acceptable to mean "ordinary" (let's put aside "normal" for now because you seem to unrelentingly want to treat the term literally). After all, my only objection to MSA had to do with how it sounded in certain contexts - NOT with its adequacy or inadequacy to meet an end.


----------



## panjabigator

In regards to Russia, I think the reason for a lack of dialects (or large variation) may be due to population dispersion.  I think majority of the population is found in the western section, in Europe.  Sorry for the off-topic note.


----------



## abusaf

elroy said:
			
		

> Nonbody said it did.
> Context is everything. Dictionaries are inadequate. In this context, considering that your statement was presumably a rebuttal of my advice to non-natives to learn a dialect if possible, I assumed that you understood acceptable to mean "ordinary" (let's put aside "normal" for now because you seem to unrelentingly want to treat the term literally). After all, my only objection to MSA had to do with how it sounded in certain contexts - NOT with its adequacy or inadequacy to meet an end.



What I meant with acceptable is that it will meet your needs.

If I am in Gaza or Alger or Baghdad or Kuwait and ask somebody:
"Aynaa al-Masjid? Hal huwa qareebun ?"

I will get my point across. Then if people laugh at me or regard it as strange, who cares? Not me =)


----------



## elroy

Fair enough.   Yes, MSA is sufficient and adequate to fulfill your needs - because virtually all Arabs understand it.  If your purpose is purely communication, then MSA will definitely suffice.


----------



## Josh_

Talking about sweeping generalizations:



> I regret to tell you that MSA in everyday speech sounds strange _no matter what the circumstances_.



Question:


> I really don't know what would have led you to come to that conclusion.
> ...
> What in my words indicated that I find it a "crime or something to be ashamed of"?


 I should note that the "as if it were a crime" was an analogy.  That was actually my second choice.  My first was funnier, but I refrained from using it.
Answer:


> and yes, I usually feel really strange and uncomfortable trying to communicate with a foreigner (or anyone else, for that matter) in MSA. I don't feel _embarrassed_ - but I feel ... awkward. It doesn't feel right. It's affected, unusual, unbecoming...





> The only times two native speakers of Arabic speak to each other in MSA is when one person's dialects is *incomprehensible* to the other - and even then the speaker of the incomprehensible dialect first tries to speak the other dialect if he can, because that would sound smooth and fitting whereas MSA would not. Think of it this way: MSA is resorted to among native speakers only when there is absolutely no other option, bearing in mind that in such circumstances it doesn't cease to sound odd.





> I wonder what I said that contradicts that? But speaking in MSA is like one of those things that "marks" you as a foreigner. If you're fine with that, great!


You say it still sounds strange, but if one comes to know and expect that foreigners speak this way, why should it still sound strange.   It is just a different situation.  I mean you don't talk the same way around your parents that you do around your friends, do you?


----------



## elroy

I stand by my earlier comment. Just because foreigners are usually taught MSA first and tend to use it in everyday speech (at least until they learn a dialect) does not mean that it is *fitting* in those contexts. I'm sure you're familiar with foreign speakers of English who sometimes use structures that are unidiomatic or uncommon, no matter how grammatically correct they are. Same idea - it's a certain style of speaking that marks you as a foreigner. I repeat - if that's not an issue to you (general you here) then by all means continue to use MSA to order your meals at a restaurant. 

The analogy with my parents and my friends does not work. Those are different registers that make different speaking styles more or less appropriate, whereas being a foreigner does not by definition constitute a different register. No matter how "used to it" I get, it won't sound natural to me - at least not until MSA undergoes a "reinvention" of the type referred to earlier. 

I don't see anything in the text you quoted that indicates that I am "ashamed" of MSA. All I said was that in everyday speech "It doesn't feel right. It's affected, unusual, unbecoming..." and that I therefore prefer colloquial Arabic in those contexts. It's a matter of aesthetics - euphony, if you will - and is not a value judgment at all.


----------



## abusaf

I don't know about you guys, but I definately feel more eager to use Fus7a after this thread. Rebel without a cause


----------



## Josh_

I enjoy speaking both MSA and Egyptian colloquial.  Right now, though, probably more MSA since I have achieved a decent level of fluency in Egyptian, but not MSA and thus I need practice.


----------



## Anatoli

Yes, Russia is one country and it has been like this for many centuries. Education levels have been high and in fact, there are no dialects but small regional accents. Some Russians pick on other Russians for incorrectly pronouncing words or wrong grammar, no-one is proud of their regional dialect/accent, more often it's the other way around, they try to hide it. Russian language is surprising homogenous and even large non-Russian communities have/had excellent command of Russian in ex-USSR and modern Russia.

Panjabigator, dispersion of population is a negative, not a positive factor for language homogenousness. Arabs are dispersed on a large area, and as a result, there are big communication problems.

Arabic dialects are not formalised, not taught to foreigners properly and their status is low - not used in formal speech and education, only used for entertainment programs, not for news, etc.

Arabs do find a common language in speech, I'd say it's a mixture of dialects and MSA, depending on distance and difference, why not make a commonly accepted language with a common vocabulary and grammar? Trouble is, there is no authority to make that decision and there will be resistance from purists.


----------



## CarlosPerezMartinez

elroy said:
			
		

> Do I see what?  Am I missing something?


 
Hebrew sounded "awkward" in the beginning. Then it was spread all over Israel and is now a language currently used by everybody. MSA could be the same. Just teach it properly during the years, use it as a common language for all Arabs, keep dialects for home use and khalas, after some time will sound as natural as any other dialect  . This will be quite beneficial for us, _khawajas_, who are always faced to the difficulties of the dialects.


			
				Anatoli said:
			
		

> To CarlosPerezMartinez,
> 
> Arabs need to agree on a common language, IMHO. If there were more unity that would have happened already. In a thread I started or rather was split from one of my posts - "Future of MSA", I asked this question. Either MSA or *its simplified version* could become a common standard language used in most situations, not just very formal ones or a dialect or a group of dialects could be upgraded for a higher status. Judging on other people's posts and materials I read, MSA is not absorbing dialects or foreign words (or not absorbing enogh) as it does with other languages (spoken and written go hand in hand - your speech affects your writing) because there are purists who want to keep MSA clean and as close to Qur'anic Arabic as possible because it is a tradition, history, etc.
> 
> China didn't have a common spoken language until the beginning of the 20th century, dialects still differ much more than they do in Arabic. Then Putonghua - Common Speech (aka Mandarin) was chosen - a dialect based on a mixture of Northern dialects, primarily Beijing. This dialect has the largest number of speakers who, at least understand it or have no problem adjusting. All other Chinese had to learn Mandarin. Well, China is one centralised country, not the case with the Arab world, so language development is hard to control or predict.


 
I think we are all saying the same with different words. As a foreigner I wish Arabs could have a better knowledge of MSA. Actually you study MSA only to discover that all Arabs speak something different and somehow difficult to grasp for a foreigner.


----------



## Xerinola

Hi everybody!

I'm learning arabic. I'm translator but I don't speak as good as I translate/read/write. I'm learning Fus-ha, so my question is: When I was in Egypt I learnt a bit of dialect but I always spoke in fus-ha because I know more fus-ha than egyptian. Then I spoke fus-ha in everywere (market, supermarket, bar, restaurant, taxi, with young people...)
I wonder if I was awkward? It seems ridiculous?
MAybe your answer is "yes" because I might speak so bad and with an strong spanish accent...
But I have to say that most people was happy when I tried to speak in arabic and they made efforts to speak with me in fus-ha.

X:


----------



## cherine

Xerinola said:
			
		

> I wonder if I was awkward? It seems ridiculous?
> MAybe your answer is "yes" because I might speak so bad and with an strong spanish accent...


Actually my answer is "no" 
Your being a foreigner makes people understand why you can't speak their dialect. And this is the point that I -and I think Elroy too- were trying to convey all along this tyring thread (tyring because it seems as if people are speaking about different things!)

If I'm allowed an illustrative example to show what Elroy and I mean :
- If/when I meet Elroy, he'd speak to me in Palestinian and I'd reply in Egyptian. Whenever one of us uses an expression or word not known by the other, we'd simply need to explain it. (Actually this happened at least once between us in a PM). We won't speak to each other in MSA, not because we can't -because we can- but because we'd sound funny or strange.
- If/when I meet Josh, or any other foreigner, he could speak to me in Egyptian -as he's studied it- or in MSA, I won't feel it strange coming from him, a foreigner, that he speaks to me in MSA. I'll simply think that he either doesn't know my dialect or that he want to practice the MSA he's learnt.

Here, I hope this cleared things a bit.


----------



## ummja'far

As a non arab I communicate almost always in fus7a with arabs. It is pretty obvious that many (most even?) arabs who are born here cannot speak fus7a properly, if at all. I have found many arabs who don't like speaking in their local dialects and like abusaf said, urge me to speak in fus7a and not in egyptian or iraqi. I think also, a small but important point here, is that many people speak fus7a to emphasise a muslim unity that is why many religious people insist on speaking fus7a even at home.


----------



## suma

To reply to Elroy who insists that any colloquial Arabic regardless of the speaker sounds normal and acceptable, I have to heartedly *disagree*.

I remember once a university teacher of Arabic, he was a non-Arab (american in fact) who always spoke in the thickest Syrian dialect he could muster. I'm sorry but to me it just came off as terriblely fake, trying to be something that he just simply wasn't.

for an analogy, kinda  like a Bengali speaking in the heaviest Texan drawl. it just doesn't work, standard american english would have been fine!

and in the above mentioned case MSA would have sounded much more "natural" for this individual.


----------



## elroy

Hi, Suma, and welcome to the forums. 

It goes without saying that I assumed a relatively decent and natural command of a dialect.  Obviously his Syrian would sound awkward (in the conventional sense of the word!) if it was affected and not smooth. 

Furthermore, your analogy is flawed because Arabs do not speak MSA among themselves on an everyday basis, whereas many Americans do use "standard American English" in their everyday lives.  

Assuming a foreigner has a comparable command of both MSA and a dialect, the dialect would sound more natural in everday speech.


----------



## abusaf

I agree with Suma. When somebody starts learning Arabic, they should start with MSA, and then if they move to a Arabic country, the language will of course be colored by the enviroment and be more dialectial. And this is how it is anywhere. Like someone who learns English will learn the 'correct' grammatical version and then when he blends into the American culture, he will automatically start speaking more like the people, and this will be more authentic. 

Elroy speaks the Palestinian dialect because he is Palestinian, and Cherine the Egyptian dialect because she is Egyptian and thats the language they grew up with. However, someone coming from non-arabic background, he has no dialect which he grew up with, so using MSA is the logical choice, otherwise it sounds, like Suma said, very fake. 

Sometimes you hear non-Arabs on al-Jazeerah etc, speaking about some topic and theyre actually trying to sound more dialectial even though its obvious they have a MSA backgroud, like:
"wa lakin,,,,Bas al-3amaliyah dee.........mish kwaysah" 
And it sounds soooo ridiculous.



> Furthermore, your analogy is flawed because Arabs do not speak MSA among themselves on an everyday basis, whereas many Americans do use "standard American English" in their everyday lives.



Actually the difference between how people speak in the streets of America and how the official language is taught is actually pretty noticable.


----------



## elroy

Yes, Abusaf - mixtures do sound ridiculous. When I say that a foreigner should learn or use a dialect, the word "properly" is understood. The end goal, of course, is to attain a decent level of fluency in the dialect. On the way, however, it is inevitable that a foreigner who has learned MSA will inadvertently mix MSA and the dialect he is learning until he learns to properly and automatically distinguish between the two.  Such situations are normal and expected in the process of language learning and certainly do not represent the desired end product.

Whether MSA should be learned first is another story. I personally think that which version is learned first or at all depends on the learner's needs and/or interests.


> Actually the difference between how people speak in the streets of America and how the official language is taught is actually pretty noticable.


 There are plenty of Americans who use proper, standard English almost all of the time - even on the streets.


----------



## българин

Wow, very controversial topic. Ok, so can I just get as many opinions as possible (and please make it short) on the following question. On a business meeting, people (foreigners and arabs) will converse in the local dialect (as their first choice)? If by any chance, someone does not understand something, they will switch to MSA? Did I get the concept, or not? lol


----------



## cherine

българин said:


> Wow, very controversial topic. Ok, so can I just get as many opinions as possible (and please make it short) on the following question. On a business meeting, people (foreigners and arabs) will converse in the local dialect (as their first choice)? If by any chance, someone does not understand something, they will switch to MSA? Did I get the concept, or not? lol


A very short answer : it depends.

More detailed one : It depend what language or dialect they have in common. If those foreigners and those Arabic speakers have a dialect in common, they'll chose it, otherwise it would be -like in almost everywhere on Earth these days- *English*.
Also, MSA is a valid choice, even if those Arabic speakers don't master the language enough to hold a long conversation in it, but I think every Arabic native can manage to express himself/herself in it, if (s)he has too.

I hope I didn't write too much


----------



## българин

I hate English. Knowing this language just eliminates the need to learn a different language. If someone was to learn a different language, it would be out of pure curiosity and will to learn that language, and not actually a particular need for the language. Thanks for your reply Cherine.


----------



## Anatoli

It also applies to the other thread - understudied Arabic - Arabs are good at English, no motivation to learn Arabic for some (if you don't have that curiosity).


----------



## elroy

We're drifting off topic.  Let's assume for the sake of this discussion that everybody at this business meeting knows some variety of Arabic.

The answer will be that it depends on what variety of Arabic the foreigners have learned.  If they have mastered a dialect, everybody will converse in it because that's the most natural and comfortable variety of the language to use in this setting (i.e. if everybody at the meeting were Arab, they would generally use a dialect, except for some words and structures that are more formal and are therefore better expressed in MSA).

If, however, the foreigners know only MSA, then that is what the Arabs will use - both out of respect and out of practical interests.


----------



## Flaminius

abusaf said:


> Al-Fus7a is a complete language (unlike the dialects), it has words and patterns to satisfy every speakers requests. It is, in addition to that, understood in every Arabic country.


 
I am wondering why FusHa is not the common language of the Arab world despite all of this. Our fellow native speakers and Arabists may be ready to supply historical, political and other reasons but presumably sociolinguistic reasons are worthy of inquiry as well.

Even though no post so far has advanced this point in this thread but I consider it a well-established fact that no Arabic speaker is a native speaker of FusHa; even though this statement might be compromised to something like, "no linguistic community of significant size speak MSA as its primary language" by the exceptions that I hope our fellow posters could kindly provide.

It follows, then, that native speakers feel something artificial when an interlocuter addresses them in MSA, which by no means is the native language of anyone. Otherwise, I cannot account for the observations made by Cherine and Elroy that MSA in everyday speech is awkward, unnatural, out-of-place and so on.

When I mentioned MSA is artificial, I was more focusing on the consciousness of the native speakers (what a mind reader I am  ) than on the historical phenomenon of FusHa developing into regional varieties of Arabic. As the first language of an Arab is the _dialect_ Arabic of her region, FusHa is to her a second language that, depending on the linguistic difference between it and her first language, she might have to learn with great effort.

I consider speaking in MSA at the local supermarket is as "awkward" (in sensu Elroy) as reporting in Ammiyya at a Fiscal Committee of the Parliament. The former's usage domain, or the purpose of learning it at school, is very formal occasions and written communications whereas the latter's domain is oral and mostly casual. When a variety is used in the wrong domain, the speech is marked as a deviation from the sociolinguistic norm of the diglossic speech community.

Flaminius


----------



## elroy

You bring up many important points, and everything you say is spot-on.

Indeed, all Arabs speak a dialect fluently - as their mother tongue - but nobody speaks MSA as a mother tongue.  Any single Arab's degree of proficiency in MSA will vary considerably - depending on factors such as education, literacy, exposure to MSA, etc.  In fact, it is quite possible for an Arab to spend his entire life without ever learning MSA.  Such is the case, for example, with many second-generation Palestinian refugees, whose parents immigrated to a new country before they were born or when they were very little.  These children inherit colloquial Arabic from their parents but never learn MSA.  But even Arabs who grow up in Arab countries need not demonstrate proficiency in MSA.  The rules of MSA, unlike those of colloquial Arabic, need to be learned at school or otherwise, because they are not acquired.  Some students simply do not do a good job learning these rules and virtually never think about MSA after they graduate from high school.

That said, almost all Arabs have _passive_ proficiency in MSA - and that is why they can understand it even if they cannot speak it flawlessly.  This, along with the similarities between MSA and colloquial Arabic (they are the same language, after all) is what makes the difference between native Arabs and foreign learners of MSA; provided they are sufficienly educated, the former develop a "feel" for what is correct or incorrect in MSA - even though it's not their native language.

It is this dichotomy between native Arabs' experience with MSA and their experience with their native dialect that marks MSA as conspicuously unusual when used in any contexts for which it is not normally reserved.


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## MarcB

When if ever was fusHa the vernacular? I read that even some classical writings had to be "corrected" when arabic writing was standardized. Has it always existed in the state of diglossia?


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## Anatoli

> Some students simply do not do a good job learning these rules and virtually never think about MSA after they graduate from high school.



Elroy, I wonder if your comment applies to educated people who follow news, read newspapers, they are in MSA, aren't they?


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## cherine

Anatoli said:


> Elroy, I wonder if your comment applies to educated people who follow news, read newspapers, they are in MSA, aren't they?


Even uneducated people can follow the news and read the newspapers in MSA.
I guess what Elroy meant was more about using the MSA not reading or understanding it.
The sad reality is that many people who graduated from university can't write a decent paragraph (and I'm not speaking about a whole letter, for example) without making huge grammar mistakes, not to mention spelling and vocabulary  
I know so many such persons, so I'm speaking out of personal experience. Getting education is no guarantee of mastering the language (and what language ! it's our own!)


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## elroy

Indeed, Anatoli, I was referring to _active_ use of MSA.  I agree with Cherine that there are many Arabs who cannot say that they have a good active command of MSA.


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## abusaf

With regards to writing in MSA amongst Arabs, it strikes me as odd that one could be exposed to such large quantity of MSA, through books, newspapers, newscasts etc, without having a fairly good command of it oneself. 

I mean when a person learns a language, he or she will probably understand something, without being able to repeat it, and this is a common thing. However this is just in the beginning, some Arabs hear and read MSA everyday for more than 20 years, without necessarily being able to produce the language for themselves. I don't know how that works psychologically. 97% of all the English I know, I know from just hearing it over and over again, or reading it, and hence grasping how it is used and in what contexts it should be used. 
So when you think about it like that, it seems very peculiar that so few Arabs have a basic command of the language, and that ANY Arab, grown up in a Arabic society would not be able to write freely and gracefully in the language.


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## cherine

I understand what you say Abusaf, but -as I said- it's the sad reality.
I have colleagues who can't write few lines without making the most crazy-driving mistakes : hamza, feminine/masculine, dual, plural forms, let alone grammatical mistakes.
People listen to news, read newspaper (I won't speak of reading books, because this is not an "average person's activity") this sort of exposure help people understand this level of Arabic, i.e. fus7a. But speaking and writing is another thing.

P.S. You want to have a laugh (_if_ it's a funny thing) ?
Few month ago, some persons I know where singing that song of Umm Kulthoum "al-aTlaal", it's a song in fus7a. There's a verse saying هل رأى الحب سُكارَى مثلنا 
Now guess how those university graduates interpreted the word sukaara !
One of them said : it's "haram s*u*qqara" (she means the S*a*qqara pyramid) !!!!
The other one said : Oh ! doesn't it mean "sweet" ? (sukara = sukkar) 
Now go figure what non-educated people would say  

Again, it's sad, it's unbelievable... but it *is* true.


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## elroy

I think we're exaggerating just a tad.  I truly think that the number of Arabs who can write relatively well (i.e. not completely flawlessly, but passably) in MSA exceeds the number that cannot.  Furthermore, what I was referring to (and Cherine too, I think) are not the basics, but the nitty-gritty rules that you really need to study the language well to understand.  Reading newspapers and listening to the news is good, but it's not enough.  In order to learn how to write fluidly and correctly in MSA, the proper rules need to be individually learned and applied.  

Anyway, we are veering off-topic again.   I think there's already a thread somewhere about MSA proficiency in the Arab world.  If not, someone could start one.


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## Hibou57

Here is something I quote from an English student learning standard Arabic :



> So, if I go to Egypt or Lebanon in a year, having managed to get some near grip on my classroom language, I will be walking down the street asking people for a bite to eat in something that will sound almost as conversationally inappropriate to them as Shakespearean English would to us.


 
really so much ? ... I dunno

And an other quote from this forum it-self as well :


> I've actually heard of Moroccans going to the Gulf and needing a translator!


 
Ho my god!!!


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## elroy

Hibou57 said:


> really so much ? ...


 Yes.

Your second comment is off-topic.


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## suma

_Quote:_
_So, if I go to Egypt or Lebanon in a year, having managed to get some near grip on my classroom language, I will be walking down the street asking people for a bite to eat in something that will sound almost as conversationally inappropriate to them as Shakespearean English would to us. _

Not quite, because in the English speaking world of today newsbroadcasts are not delivered in Shakespearian English, and books, novels, magazine articles are not written in Shakespearian English, also formal or religious addresses are not delivered in Shakespearian English.

But that is the case in the Arab world, that nearly all print material is in MSA (or call it fus7aa), and a good percent of formal speeches are delivered in fus7aa. So to be caught speaking fus7aa in the market place will admitedly sound a bit strange, but to compare that to speaking Shakespearian English on the streets of London or NY is not quite analogous either.


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## abusaf

> So, if I go to Egypt or Lebanon in a year, having managed to get some near grip on my classroom language, I will be walking down the street asking people for a bite to eat in something that will sound almost as conversationally inappropriate to them as Shakespearean English would to us.



Not really. The comparing of MSA to Shakespearean English is flawed in many ways.
1.) Unlike MSA, no one would hear Shakespearean English today. In Arab countries the kids watch all their cartoons in MSA, the adults watch discussion shows in MSA. Hence, hearing people discuss issues in MSA is not as outlandish to Arab ears as Shakesperean english would be to English speakers.

2) Most of the people who learn Arabic use MSA as a gateway. Hence they usually speak a bit of MSA before moving on to a dialect. Therefore most Arabs who have had any contact whatsoever with foreigh students, will not be surprised to hear a foreigner speak MSA. If an egyptian came to the United States and said something like: "Where art thou companion Steve be thy name?", he would most likely not be understood nor would people think "I see, he's new to english" 

The 'inappropriateness' of speaking MSA is highly over-hyped. 99% of Arabs couldnt care less if you adress them in MSA or their own dialect. But then you have the 1% zealous types trying to convince you otherwise. Don't pay them any attention.


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## elroy

Before we make further accusations, let's take another look at the exact question that was asked:


> So, if I go to Egypt or Lebanon in a year, having managed to get some near grip on my classroom language, I will be walking down the street asking people for a bite to eat in something that will *sound* *almost*as *conversationally* inappropriate to them as Shakespearean English would to us.


 The question was not about whether MSA and Shakespearean English are parallels in all respects.

It was about the validity of the comparison between MSA and Shakespearean English regarding *the degree to which they sound normal in everyday conversations*.

While no analogy is perfect, it is reasonable to say that MSA does *sound almost* as strange as Shakespearean English in such contexts. 

I'm afraid non-natives are not in a position to judge how MSA sounds to natives in various contexts.


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## suma

elroy said:


> I'm afraid non-natives are not in a position to judge how MSA sounds to natives in various contexts.


 
My experiences using MSA to natives have been overwhelmingly positive. they understood me perfectly well, even if they could not respond in MSA speech sometimes.


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## elroy

suma said:


> My experiences using MSA to natives have been overwhelmingly positive. they understood me perfectly well, even if they could not respond in MSA speech sometimes.


 I don't doubt that.   I'm sure that if we met one day, I'd have no problems understanding you - and, better yet, I'd be able to respond in MSA! 

This does not, however, negate the fact that MSA sounds unusual in everyday speech.  But I feel like I'm repeating myself.  Please read through this thread if you haven't already done so, as I think I've already expressed my viewpoints more than sufficiently.


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## suma

elroy said:


> I don't doubt that.  I'm sure that if we met one day, I'd have no problems understanding you - and, better yet, I'd be able to respond in MSA!


 
and that's my point Elroy, that MSA is perfectly understood by all but the most illiterate and rustic Arab today. So non-native learners need not worry that their "textbook" Arabic speech will not be comprehensible; which is not the case with Shakespearian English today.

I remember first reading Shakespear in HS, and it was very hard to understand, like another language, without the teacher's explanations every other word we'd have been completely lost.

To some degree I think that Arab children do not understand MSA as well as adults, moslty because they have not yet finished formal education, and have had less exposure to MSA via reading books, listening to news, etc. 

But the point that MSA sounds "(_place your adjective here_)" is noted and that a native speaker would almost never speak that way.


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## elroy

Again, no analogy is perfect.

As you stated, Shakespearean English is a lot more incomprehensible to educated native speakers of English than MSA is to educated native speakers of Arabic.

They are similar in that they both sound unusual in everyday speech - simply because they are not used in those contexts.  Yes, MSA is used in a variety of contexts in which Shakespearean English is not used - but it is not used on an everyday basis, and that's why it sounds strange in that context to the native ear.

This is not a judgment of MSA, nor does it represent any sort of linguistic position.  It is simply a fact of life.

You are of course right about the difference in MSA proficiency between children and adults.  This is no different from bookish/formal/elegant (or insert your own adjective here) English.


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## MarcB

I would like to put this discussion in perspective. The native speakers have answered the original question MSA in everyday speech : how does it sound?  It does not exist, therefore it does not sound, appear, seem natural. MSA has its place in various uses as already mentioned. What people are confusing is whether or not a person will speak to a learner or student in Fus7a Arabic. For the most part that is not an everyday situation for most people. It has been my experience and that of several foreros here that they will speak to you in MSA. They may even praise you for your success in mastering the language. I have found the same for foreigners who speak or attempt to speak ammiyya. To reiterate MSA is not used in everyday situations outside those listed here and previous threads. I have also seen a few Arabs who speak vastly different lahajat converse in MSA and a mixture of Lahaja and MSA. Again this is not and everyday situation. In conclusion it seems to me that people are arguing different points, while both are in fact true.​


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## Abu Rashid

I found this thread linked to from another thread, and just thought I might comment on what's been said about Fus7a and it's supposed awkwardness.

It seems that some people today tend to hold an opinion that fus7a should be restricted to certain arenas (usually academic) and that it just sounds out of place and unnatural in everyday speech. Generally those who promote such a view have some kind of distaste for fus7a considering it to be a religious strain of the language which is only relevant to Islamists. It has been stated in this thread that fus7a is awkward, that it's not elegant, that it's out of place, that it sounds strange in informal situations etc. yet all of this is just nonsense and is obviously a very loaded argument by those who'd like to promote such an agenda and downplay the greatness of fus7a.

Fus7a is indeed the most elegant and beautiful sounding of the "strains" of Arabic, and this  is why it has for instance always been the medium of Arabic poetry. Speakers of 3ameeyah who are sensitive about this issue just need to wake up and realise that even though their dialect is valid for them in their everyday life, it doesn't mean it's on a par with fus7a, it simply is not, so don't pretend that it is. It seems that this forum tries to enforce some kind of Political Correctness regarding peoples opinions about the validity of 3ameeyah.

In my experience Fus7a sounds perfectly fine in any situation, and is not awkward for anything, whether it be catching a taxi, buying something in a supermarket, a casual social gathering or any other situation for that matter, so long as the parties involved understand fus7a enough for it to work. Obviously if they do not, then it can create comprehension barriers but that's nothing to do with awkwardness. It sounds no more awkward or out of place than Khaleeji Arabic sounds spoken in an Egyptian supermarket, or Egyptian Arabic speaken somewhere else (Although Egyptian is  almost universally understood everywhere anyway).

As Abusaf has mentioned, most Arabs recognise the superiority of Fus7a and will always praise someone who speaks in Fus7a (especially a foriegner). My family-in-law who are Egyptians always tell me I am better in Arabic than them (even though this is obviously not true) because I speak more Fus7a than them (although I do use a bit of 3ameeyah).

So to finish off, anyone who claims that Fus7a sounds awkward either hasn't opened their ears to really listen to it, it is indeed the most elegant and stylised form of the language, or else they obviously have some agenda against Fus7a which causes them to be biased against it. It isn't used strictly for poetry, media, religion etc. simply because it's convenient, it's because it's actually the more pristine and vast form of the language.

I think a good way to view Fus7a and it's relationship with the dialects is a like a circle. The circle being Fus7a and the dialects being sub-circles of that big circle which all intersect each other to some degree and largely they intersect and are contained within the circle of Fus7a.

Also to finish off, although it is quite rare nowadays, there are those purists, even native Arabs who speak only in Fus7a. My son's great uncle was one such purist. He was an Imam (leader) of a Mosque in Alexandria, and he spoke ONLY in fus7a. Whether it be in supermarkets, taxis, trams, casually in the street or anywhere else. Yes he was not in the majority, but such people do exist and they don't sound awkward. They sound very elegant and sophisticated.


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## elroy

Obviously, you have not carefully read the 70+ posts in which this topic was beat to death, resurrected, beat to death again, again and again ad nauseum - either that, or you chose to read what you wanted to and interpret it according to your own prejudices and preconceived notions, which I can only hope are not held by too many other people.


Abu Rashid said:


> It seems that some people today tend to hold an opinion that fus7a should be restricted to certain arenas (usually academic) and that it just sounds out of place and unnatural in everyday speech.


 Not "should be" but *is*. It's not like someone just woke up one day and decided, "Hm, I think fus7a should be used in these contexts and not in those," thereby rebelliously defying a different state of affairs, one of the type you imagine actually reflects reality. 

The fact of the matter is that for whatever reason, "pure fus7a" (i.e. only fus7a, with no traces of a dialect) *is simply not used* in informal contexts. This is a fact, not an opinion. By virtue of that fact, it does sound out-of-place in those contexts, simply because native speakers are not used to it in those contexts. End of story. Colloquial Arabic sounds just as out-of-place in formal contexts, in which fus7a is more appropriate. The recognition of the different registers in which one variety or the other is more appropriate is simply a recognition of fact and says *nothing* about the speaker's attitude toward either. 



> Generally those who promote such a view have some kind of distaste for fus7a considering it to be a religious strain of the language which is only relevant to Islamists.


 I don't know where to begin in my deconstruction of this ridiculous statement.

First of all, it's not a view; it's an expression of reality.
Secondly, the correlation you imagine between this "view" and distaste for fus7a is nothing but a figment of your imagination or perhaps a paranoid suspicion about those who recognize when and where which variants of the language are more commonly used. 


> It has been stated in this thread that fus7a is awkward, that it's not elegant, that it's out of place, that it sounds strange in informal situations etc. yet all of this is just nonsense and is obviously a very loaded argument by those who'd like to promote such an agenda and downplay the greatness of fus7a.


 Wow - I hadn't heard a good conspiracy theory in a long time. I guess I need to train my native-speaker ears to react differently to the sounds of my own language in different contexts, lest I be accused of underplaying one of its variants.


> Fus7a is indeed the most elegant and beautiful sounding of the "strains" of Arabic, and this is why it has for instance always been the medium of Arabic poetry.


 Subjective statements about the beauty of different varieties of the language have no place in a sociolinguistic discussion. 





> Speakers of 3ameeyah who are sensitive about this issue just need to wake up and realise that even though their dialect is valid for them in their everyday life, it doesn't mean it's on a par with fus7a, it simply is not, so don't pretend that it is.


 Another absurd statement. Perhaps you don't know that _all_ native speakers of Arabic are "speakers of 3amiyya." Don't worry; if anyone is "sensitive" about the issue, it's people like you who suspect that we native speakers do not appreciate the beauty of fus7a just because we don't think it's natural to use it all the time. Let's set the record straight: I love fus7a. I think it's beautiful, rich, complex - a language very few, if any, have ever mastered all the intricacies of. But you wouldn't catch me dead ordering a hamburger in fus7a (unless I was joking around) - because it's "just not done."

And who ever said fus7a and 3aami are "on a par" - whatever that's supposed to mean? On the contrary, what we are saying is that they are used in different settings. In different contexts, one is more appropriate than the other - although in reality we mix them all the time (but that's another thread). Just as a formal speech sounds far more eloquent and articulate in fus7a than in 3aami, so a joke cannot be rendered with the same wit and flair in fus7a as it can in 3aami. That's a fact of life, and if you want to come even close to appreciating the full value of the Arabic language - in _all_ of its variants - _you_ need to come to terms with the vital role that 3aami plays in the Arab world.


> It seems that this forum tries to enforce some kind of Political Correctness regarding peoples opinions about the validity of 3ameeyah.


 This forum is open to all opinions, on any end of the spectrum, and everywhere in between. It's just that you'll find that most radical, fanatical opinions are easily debunked by those who do not care for excessive hype and blowing things out of proportion. 


> In my experience Fus7a sounds perfectly fine in any situation, and is not awkward for anything, whether it be catching a taxi, buying something in a supermarket, a casual social gathering or any other situation for that matter, so long as the parties involved understand fus7a enough for it to work.


 What is "your experience"? You are not a native speaker, and I don't know how much time you've spent in the Arab world. Do you know many people who actually use fus7a in these situations? It's easy to just say "in my experience" without providing hard data. Furthermore, your statement is ambiguous - to *whom* does it sound "perfectly fine" in these situations "in your experience"?


> It sounds no more awkward or out of place than Khaleeji Arabic sounds spoken in an Egyptian supermarket,


 This is pure speculation (although by now I don't expect much else). If I understood khaliiji to the same degree that I understand fus7a, I would much rather speak/hear it in an Egyptian supermarket (or a Palestinian one, for that matter) than fus7a. Obviously, I would resort to fus7a in the case that I don't understand the dialect of my interlocutor - or he mine - but in the case that we understand each other's dialects, colloquial Arabic is consistently used in informal contexts. 


> As Abusaf has mentioned, most Arabs recognise the superiority of Fus7a and will always praise someone who speaks in Fus7a (especially a foriegner).


 "The superiority of fus7a"? According to whom? Is it a well known "fact" that fus7a is superior? Most Arabs know that the two varieties are different. Neither is superior or inferior; they are just different. We praise foreigners who speak fus7a just as we praise those who speak 3aami. We are always happy to see foreigners speak our language, no matter which variety they use. 


> My family-in-law who are Egyptians always tell me I am better in Arabic than them (even though this is obviously not true) because I speak more Fus7a than them (although I do use a bit of 3ameeyah).


 That's because many Arabs are not proficient in fus7a, so they are impressed with foreigners who are. This says nothing about how it sounds when used atypically. 


> So to finish off, anyone who claims that Fus7a sounds awkward either hasn't opened their ears to really listen to it, it is indeed the most elegant and stylised form of the language, or else they obviously have some agenda against Fus7a which causes them to be biased against it. It isn't used strictly for poetry, media, religion etc. simply because it's convenient, it's because it's actually the more pristine and vast form of the language.


 First of all, I need to point out that your continual use of the word "awkward" is a convenient manipulation of my earlier words. I already acknowledged that that was not the best word choice, replacing it with more precise words that express what I meant - that it does not sound natural in certain contexts. Secondly, your erudite conclusion is almost too over the top to address, but I'll say it again: Nobody is denying the beauty and elegance and richness of fus7a. All we're saying is that it is not the preferable variety of the language in everyday contexts. Maybe _you_ should open your eyes to the reality of the situation and get off your soapbox about this "agenda" you've imagined. 


> Also to finish off, although it is quite rare nowadays, there are those purists, even native Arabs who speak only in Fus7a.


 Yes, and they sound preposterously ridiculous. Thankfully, I've only ever met one such man, and thankfully, he didn't do it all the time. 

People like that sound even more ridiculous than foreigners speaking fus7a all the time because as natives they don't even have an excuse. 

I hope that that has made my position amply clear. I didn't exactly sugar-coat my words, but that's because I'm sick of this meaningless debate - and of these insulting and unfounded accusations about my attitude toward my own language.


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## Abu Rashid

> People like that sound even more ridiculous than foreigners speaking fus7a all the time because as natives they don't even have an excuse.


 
Quite a detailed and well thought out response elroy. But this comment says it all. Those who love fus7a and seek to revive its widespread use sound ridiculous and should feel ashamed for speaking in fus7a, especially if they didn't have an excuse.

Although you have made some very good points in your post (and I commend you for that) you've also failed to see the other side of the coin I think. In my home we speak largely fus7a and my children have been raised speaking mostly fus7a. We have no problem joking and talking casually in fus7a, and I think you are unable to shed your bias against fus7a in this context. At the same time we can use 3ameeyah for the most serious of issues. Your misconception is that fus7a is purely for sterile technical discussions, whilst 3ameeyah is for natural and informal personal situations. Have you ever watched the Egyptian parliament? If not, you should do so. 3ameeyah is the most dominant form of Arabic there, although they do try to use a sprinkling of fus7a if they can, and it serves them quite fine.


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## elroy

Abu Rashid said:


> But this comment says it all. Those who love fus7a and seek to revive its widespread use sound ridiculous and should feel ashamed for speaking in fus7a, especially if they didn't have an excuse.


 You have put words in my mouth. I did not say nor imply the parts in red. I said they sounded ridiculous, because they do (in my opinion). Period. Once again, this does not say anything about whether I think it would be a good or a bad development for people to start using fus7a more and more on a daily basis. All I'm saying is that in this day and age, it sounds unusual. If one day it becomes so widespread that it sounds commonplace, I'll be the first to admit that. But that's not the case (yet). 


> [...] I think you are unable to shed your bias against fus7a in this context.


 Once again, you use exaggerated words like "bias." The fact that I think it sounds strange does not demonstrate any type of bias against it. It's my gut reaction as a native speaker.


> Your misconception is that fus7a is purely for sterile technical discussions, whilst 3ameeyah is for natural and informal personal situations.


 It's not as simple as that. It all depends on the situation and the context.


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## Taalib

Being careful not to rehash any of the many posts already made, I will say this much: when I'm in an Arab country whose dialect I do not know, I can always get by with speaking just MSA.  Yes, yes--there are quizzical stares, and maybe a few teens laugh at me; but the point is that I can communicate ideas across, and vice-versa--and hence, as a foreigner, I can survive in an Arab country without speaking _a word in English_.  

So my belated observation to this long and argumentative thread is: sure, spoken MSA sounds strange to most native speakers, and it sounds natural to those of us trained in the US who grew up on a diet of ready-made Arabic grammar books.  But for me--one Westerner who makes a living not by teaching Arabic, but by using it for other business and academic tasks in the Middle East--speaking MSA gets the job done.  I don't have time to think about the luxuries of MSA versus dialect when I'm running around trying to do 100 things in a month-long trip.  (It's only when I browse these boards after I return can I flex those muscles!) The need to communicate overrides whatever embarrassment I may trigger in the ears of native speakers.  For foreigners like myself who regard trips to the Mideast as opportunities to get things done, not long vacations where I can debate the finer nuances of MSA versus dialect with local aficionados, I'll use whatever language tools available.


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## Abu Rashid

I think we came to the conclusion that it's just what people are used to anyway. Native speakers largely would find fus7a "unusual" to hear in normal everyday conversation, and this is a simple fact of what they're used to, unless it came from a foriegner.

I will note one thing, whenever I catch a taxi in an Arabic country, I always refrain from uttering any word of fus7a, so as not to alert the driver to the fact he could probably take twice the fare from me  In such cases a natural sounding grasp of the local dialect comes in very handy.


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## elroy

Both good points.

Taalib, the utlity of MSA is indisputable but has little to do with *how it sounds*.  That is the sole topic of this thread, and I'm simply amazed at how long such a simple (and to me, easily addressed) issue has dragged on and on since this thread began in July.

Abu Rashid, it is absolutely about what native speakers are used to.  Whenever you hear anything you're not used to, it's going to sound strange, which says nothing about what your opinion of it in general is. 

I'm glad to see that we've finally reached some reasonable conclusions about this matter.


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## abusaf

> I will note one thing, whenever I catch a taxi in an Arabic country, I always refrain from uttering any word of fus7a, so as not to alert the driver to the fact he could probably take twice the fare from me  In such cases a natural sounding grasp of the local dialect comes in very handy.


I've noticed the opposite. When I was in Egypt I spoke mostly Fusha with taxi drivers when I was by myself, and never had to pay more than what is normally required. People see from my appearance that I'm not arab so I wouldn't be able to pass as one with even the most natural sounding of dialects. Hence, I noticed that speaking Fusha to taxi drivers alludes to some sort of authority making them scared to ask for more.

However I should point out that I stayed in an area where there werent many foreigners, so they didnt have "price-for-egyptians" + "price-for-foreigners" that I reckon Cairo and other tourist areas have.


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## Abu Rashid

Well in Egypt whenever I speak Fus7a, people recognise I'm a foreigner and immediately they know I have money to spare. So I try to refrain from doing so when in a taxi or bargaining with a trader in the street or souq.

Also it's difficult to know if you got the correct fare or not, you may think you got a good price but in reality you did not. Recently whilst in Saudi Arabia I caught a taxi somewhere, which I heard was around 15 riyals. I then found other people travelling in the same group with us paid 25-30 riyals for the same trip, and felt content I had paid the correct price. A few days later I took the same ride with a local, and we paid just 5 riyals.


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## eac

I think this is a very interesting thread, and I also thought so when I first read it months ago.  My question, as someone who may well travel to the Middle East before having the opportunity to learn much dialect, is which is "weirder" and more unnatural-sounding in everyday speech: an MSA sentence, or a sentence that's mostly MSA but has a little dialect thrown in?

For example, just about the only thing I know about Palestinian dialect is to say بدّي instead of أريد .  Now if I went to Palestine, and I had to say "I want" something, should I say بدّي even if the rest of the sentence is in MSA, or, should I just go whole hog and say أريد so the sentence is consistent?


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## elroy

As I said above, it's not uncommon for us to mix the two varieties ourselves, but it's not arbitrary and I would advise a learner to avoid mixing until he felt comfortable enough to know when it was done.

In your example, I would definitely advise you to use MSA for the whole sentence.  بدي أن أذهب, for example, sounds a lot less natural than أريد أن أذهب.


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## Qcumber

I remember that my teacher in the 1960s, who was an Algerian ulema, never contemplated using Classical Arabic in everyday actitivies. For him it would have been a debasement of the language. 
He used it when discussing literature with his colleagues, receiving the Mufti, going to court to help a friend about a heritage, delivering a short lecture to students, etc. All special occasions that required elaborate speech.


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## Abu Rashid

eac,



> For example, just about the only thing I know about Palestinian dialect is to say بدّي instead of أريد .



I'd advise staying away from words like بدّ as it's useage is quite different from that of اريد in many ways. For a start اريد is a verb, whilst بدّ is a noun I think, so mixing it into sentences where you'd normally use a verb might be a little difficult. Also words like this don't follow the normal rules we're used to.

I suggest maybe just inserting words like for instance taxi, instead of saying sayyarat al-2ijrah or al-mall or al-blaaza instead of markaz at-tasawwuq, to make your language sound a little more natural and easier to them. and instead of saying ayna and houna etc. use the local variants (wayn and houn for Palestine). Stuff like this would probably be the best way to mix a little 3ameeyah into your speech.

Personally I've only ever seen quite proficient people mix the 2 and make it sound good. Normally native speakers who are quite highly educated and are able to sprinkle fus7a into their speech to make it sound more educated and eloquent.


----------



## elroy

Qcumber said:
			
		

> I remember that my teacher in the 1960s, who was an Algerian ulema, never contemplated using Classical Arabic in everyday actitivies. For him it would have been a debasement of the language.


 Well, I agree that it's unusual, but I think calling it a "debasement" of the language is an exaggeration. 





Abu Rashid said:


> I'd advise staying away from words like بدّ as it's useage is quite different from that of اريد in many ways. For a start اريد is a verb, whilst بدّ is a noun I think, so mixing it into sentences where you'd normally use a verb might be a little difficult. Also words like this don't follow the normal rules we're used to.


 This is off-topic, but I just want to point out that بدي does indeed correspond more or less to the MSA أريد. بدّ is not a noun; rather, بدي comes from بودي, literally "in/of my desire." So when you say بدي قلم you are literally saying "A pen is part of my desire," which is the same thing as "I want a pen."

I can think of one grammatical difference between PA and MSA regarding the words used in conjunction with بدي; in PA we do not use the word أن so "I want to sleep" would be بدي أنام and not بدي أن أنام. This, however, is not unique to بدي because the word أن does not exist at all in PA.

Anyway, as I said this is off-topic so if you want to discuss it further feel free to start a new thread.


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## GuadalaKhara

Basically, I suck at MSA, and I avoid using it, because it is long and awkward. I have to agree with elroy that it sounds ridiculous in everyday speech. Sometimes, though, it's unavoidable...

For example, I went to a Morrocan restaurant, and started talking to the waiter in Damascene Arabic. After a few minutes of staring at me like I was from Mars, and me returning the glare (thinking he was an idiot for not understanding me), he started talking to me in English. Realizing what the problem was, I decided I'd try my luck in MSA....and even though we both had to think for a minute for some words, it worked much better....


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## Mahaodeh

I don't know about you guys, but in Iraq we used to integrate fusha with Iraqi Arabic.  Nothing like the example above بدي أن أذهب, of course not, that would be stupid at the least; it was more like:

أشو قمت، إلى أين؟
باي باي، في أمان الله
إذا أمكن، ناوشني الكتاب اليمك.

A phrase in Fusha and a phrase in 3amiyya; it doesn't sound "unnatural" or "akward" at all.  That is in everyday life, if you are in a discussion, even among friends; more phrases would be used - the more the disucssion is intellectual the more fusha is used.

But to be truthful, I haven't been to Iraq since 94 so I don't know how it's like there anymore.


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## elroy

Hi, Mahaodeh.   I know what you're talking about!  As I mentioned earlier, it's quite common and natural to mix MSA with colloquial Arabic in everyday speech.  We frequently do it in Palestinian Arabic.  !مهي لغة واحدة، شئنا أم أبينا 

However, I think the topic of this thread is using MSA exclusively in everyday speech.


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## MarX

Abu Rashid said:


> Well in Egypt whenever I speak Fus7a, people recognise I'm a foreigner and immediately they know I have money to spare. So I try to refrain from doing so when in a taxi or bargaining with a trader in the street or souq.
> 
> Also it's difficult to know if you got the correct fare or not, you may think you got a good price but in reality you did not. Recently whilst in Saudi Arabia I caught a taxi somewhere, which I heard was around 15 riyals. I then found other people travelling in the same group with us paid 25-30 riyals for the same trip, and felt content I had paid the correct price. A few days later I took the same ride with a local, and we paid just 5 riyals.


LOL! This is hilarious.

I find it also hard to explain to people that in most parts of Indonesia, Standard Indonesian is only written, and no one would come to the idea of using SI when speaking to other native speakers.

There are several similar examples in Europe, notably the German speaking part of Switzerland. They also still speak dialect even if it's a Baseler talking to a Zürcher.

I have read through the thread, and it's not hard for me to understand the situation with the MSA in the Arab World. Yet I realize as well how difficult it is for many people to grasp the concept, even though it's not as seldom as one may think.

Thanks for the explanations, this thread is utterly informative.

Salam,


MarK


----------



## Mushkalji

abusaf said:


> Sometimes you hear non-Arabs on al-Jazeerah etc, speaking about some topic and theyre actually trying to sound more dialectial even though its obvious they have a MSA backgroud, like:
> "wa lakin,,,,Bas al-3amaliyah dee.........mish kwaysah"
> And it sounds soooo ridiculous.



I don't agree with that. I'm a non-Arab who started with MSA and then had my language coloured by the local dialect (in several countries). I still speak pretty much MSA but with enough flavour that it doesn't take long for people to get over the amazement that I am speaking Arabic at all.

My next goal is to really nail the Levantine dialects. As much as my MSA is fine for diplomacy, it does create a slight barrier when trying to just get along with people outside of work.


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## Ruskoyazichniy

Hi everybody,

If I structure my sentences like in Umiya but pronounce words like fusha, would that be very strange? I mean when I say raah ilaa l bayt instead of dhahabu ilaa bayti

Basicly if I speak without case endings and use some of the common non classical words like aish and shu or 3lashan or shqad or qadesh would I sound strange?

Do I have to learn a different way of pronounce word from fusha to sound natural? or is just sentence structuring?


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## Sidjanga

elroy said:


> ...- and yes, I usually feel really strange and uncomfortable trying to communicate with a foreigner (or anyone else, for that matter) in MSA. I don't feel _embarrassed_ - but I feel ... awkward. It doesn't feel right. It's affected, unusual, unbecoming...





elroy said:


> I mentioned that many foreigners use MSA because that's all they know or all they're comfortable with but it sounds funny to natives.





elroy said:


> People like that sound even more ridiculous than foreigners speaking fus7a all the time because as natives they don't even have an excuse.


These are indescribably off-putting statements indeed.
They sound like you actually suggested it were better for foreigners to not say anything at all in Arabic until they've somehow managed to make themselves understood in some dialect - unless they want to make their native interlocutors feel awkward and/or uncomfortable,...  and are prepared to _thoroughly _ridicule themselves.

Having read all this, I definitely don't look forward to soon trying out my feeble, sorry, Modern Standard Arabic any more.
I actually feel quite _awkward _about it now.


----------



## ihsaan

Isn´t it the case though, that there seems to be a trend where Arabs try to talk more in fus7a in their daily lives - especially among practicing Muslims? I´m not sure if this is the case, but I´ve heard this stated from several practicing Muslims (from Palestine and Morocco). _If_ this is true/correct, couldn´t it be the case that in some "groups" of Arab society, speaking fus7a could be seen as less "strange" than in others...?


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## WadiH

Sidjanga said:


> Having read all this, I definitely don't look forward to soon trying out my feeble, sorry, Modern Standard Arabic any more.
> I actually feel quite _awkward _about it now.



I think my dear friend elroy was exaggerating, and in any case, you can't rely on the opinion of one person and generalize over the entire Arabic-speaking world.  These things differ across countries, social groups, social classes, religions, etc.  Don't be surprised if you talk to someone in a vernacular dialect only to find them admonishing you to avoid "slang" and speak "real" God-given Arabic .  I work with non-Arabs who speak fus7a and no one finds it awkward at all.  In fact, if you try too hard to sound colloquial, people might find it condescending.  It's perfectly valid to start out speaking fus7a (minus the case endings) and gradually incorporate vernacular features over time.  Each person has his or her own "zone" between MSA and dialect, and between dialects, that he or she is comfortable in.


----------



## clevermizo

I agree with Wadi. You should just speak the Arabic you know to the best of your ability. There are plenty of tourists and travelers to the Middle East that _don't try to learn Arabic at all_. I found people are typically happy that you have made the effort. 

Or you could do what I do, which is learn a colloquial and fus7a concurrently, but it's more work, your acquisition comes slower, and I might be insane.


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## elroy

I wasn't really exaggerating, but I may not have used the best words to describe what I meant.

In any case, you are absolutely right in saying that there are differences across the Arabic-speaking world in terms of people's reactions to the use of MSA by foreigners.  I imagine that in Saudi Arabia there are many non-Arab Muslims who have only learned MSA and thus use it to communicate, so much so that Saudis have probably gotten used to it.

In Israel and the Palestinian Territories, I have literally _never_ come across a foreigner regularly using MSA.  All the foreign speakers of Arabic I was exposed to growing up there spoke in dialect.  We do not have a significant community of non-Arab Muslims.

So to address Sidjanga's concerns, I don't think your reaction is the right one.  Although Palestinians on a whole do not perceive MSA as normal in everyday speech, they will definitely be understanding if you use it with them, and they most certainly won't ridicule you!  And while it may not be natural for _them_ to respond to you in MSA, I think that most people will do their best to accommodate your needs anyway because they will be pleased to see that you are attempting to communicate with them in their own language.  It's like Swiss people who speak in (their attempt at) Standard German when they meet a foreigner who doesn't speak or understand Swiss German.


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## Sidjanga

elroy said:


> So to address Sidjanga's concerns, I don't think your reaction is the right one.  Although Palestinians on a whole do not perceive MSA as normal in everyday speech, they will definitely be understanding if you use it with them, and they most certainly won't ridicule you!


Why would they not if - according to this post of yours - foreigners speakig fus7a sound ridiculous, though maybe not quite as ridiculous as native speakers?


----------



## clevermizo

Sidjanga said:


> Why would they not if - according to this post of yours - foreigners speakig fus7a sound ridiculous, though maybe not quite as ridiculous as native speakers?


People can be cruel and immature in all sorts of circumstances. My experience traveling was different because I was already speaking a dialect, however I knew many others who only knew how to speak in fus7a. The vast majority of people that we encountered together had no problems with the fact that they used fus7a, and there certainly was no ridicule. However, there are definitely times I remember someone I knew saying something to someone in fus7a and it generated laughter - but not in a malicious way.


----------



## elroy

Also, there is a difference between "something sounding ridiculous (because of the style of language that is used)" and "ridiculing the person who says it" (even though the words "ridiculous" and "ridicule" are etymologically related).

I think it's the same in German.  Wenn jemand etwas sagt, was sich aufgrund der Formulierung im gegebenen Zusammenhang _lächerlich_ anhört, heißt das noch lange nicht, dass man denjenigen gleich deswegen _auslacht_, oder?

Either way, I can assure you, from personal experience, that you won't be ridiculed if you use MSA, but that doesn't change the fact that it doesn't sound natural to native speakers.  Telling you otherwise would be misleading you.


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## WadiH

Elroy, I would argue that, coming from a non-native, it would not sound less natural than any dialect (not by any great margin, anyway).


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## Sidjanga

elroy said:


> Wenn jemand etwas sagt, was sich aufgrund der Formulierung im gegebenen Zusammenhang _lächerlich_ anhört, heißt das noch lange nicht, dass man denjenigen gleich deswegen _auslacht_, oder?


If someone who very obviously speaks German as a foreign language said something that _might _or _would _sound more or less "ridiculous"* when said by a native speaker, I would _definitely _not percieve this as "ridiculous", however inappropriate the style of the language might have seemed in different circumstances. 
It is more, I would most certainly not even consider it as "out of place" or something - and much less so if it's obvious the person trying to express themselves in German is having (great) difficulty to do so but nevertheless manages to make themselves understood.
Some mistakes they make may sound somewhat funny in themselves, of course, but I would never ever perceive that as "ridiculous" - and I can't imagine a relevant number of other native German speakers would.

*which, to me, is nevertheless quite a strong word  to use here


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## cherine

Hi,

I think there's a slight misunderstanding here.
The fact that we, natives, don't use fuS7a in _our_ everyday speech, doesn't mean that foreigners are expected to do the same.

In fact, whatever kind or level of Arabic a foreigner uses is always praised by natives. The more fluent (in either fuS7a or the dialect), the more praise you'll get, the more amazed people would be. But they'll always admire you for learning Arabic.

So, don't worry about practicing what you've learn whenever you visit an Arab country. You'll never be regarded as ridiculous or any such thing. On the contrary, you will be very pleases with people's reaction when hearing you speak their language, be it in its dialectal or its literary form.


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## Sidjanga

I really don't see the misunderstanding here, I'm afraid.





cherine said:


> In fact, whatever kind or level of Arabic a foreigner uses is always praised by natives.


Would you actually call this "praise"?





elroy said:


> People like that sound even more ridiculous than  foreigners speaking fus7a all the time because as natives they don't  even have an excuse.


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## Muwahid

Natives always tell me that speaking MSA is a respectable thing to do they never tell me it's awkward! A lot of natives themselves have trouble in fus7a (and some can just butcher it if they haven't been exposed to a lot of fus7a). From what I'm told people really prefer fus7a, and honestly I live with a native who only speaks 3amiyyah and I study fus7a and I find both intriguing in their own way. But I definitely prefer fus7a for me it's actually easier to speak and I'm more understood as well.

Perhaps it may be awkward sounding to hear someone ordering a sandwich in a sophisticated manner, unfortunately English does not really have a "3amiyyah" and a "fus7a" to compare but perhaps what elroy is trying to say is it's like when someone in English is "over doing it" like trying to use every fancy word in the book for something simple. That I get. But if I hear someone who isn't a native in English "over doing it" I wouldn't really think twice about it, but that's just me because I don't know if they know better or not!

Regardless, the masses will usually be very helpful when speaking Arabic in my opinion, you might get a few giggles but honestly, what language will you learn where that wont happen? If i were living in a certain Arab country though I would obviously learn and master the dialect and talk like them, as I try to do now.


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## Sidjanga

Muwahid said:


> From what I'm told people really prefer fus7a, ...


Hmm... what people? And in what situations?


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## Muwahid

Just in general. But I _do _suspect it's respect for the language in itself, I don't think these same people would take the effort to speak it regularly. But never have I heard someone prefer 3amiyyah over fus7a in terms of what they LIKE better. But they do tend to speak it when they start talking about religion I notice, and their tone changes. But I'm sure among friends if one started talking in all out fus7a they might give funny looks more like a "who are you trying to impress?" rather than "awkward". Like they call it "fancy" to say Ra'suka (رأسك) instead of Ra'sak, you know what I mean? I'm speaking on behalf of my Jordanian brethren, though, but I can't imagine the attitude shifting too much in other regions.


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## Sidjanga

elroy said:


> We are always happy to see foreigners speak our language, no matter  which variety they use.
> [...]
> ... even more ridiculous than foreigners speaking fus7a all the time (...)


How do these two statements go together?
Do they somehow go together?
If not, which of the two did/do you really mean to say?


> *ridiculous *[rɪˈdɪkjʊləs]_adj_ worthy of or exciting  ridicule; absurd, preposterous,  laughable, or contemptible
> (Collins  English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged / from here)





elroy said:


> Also, there is a difference between "something  sounding ridiculous (because of the style of language that is used)" and  "ridiculing the person who says it" (even though the words "ridiculous"  and "ridicule" are etymologically related).
> [...]
> Either way, I can assure you, from personal experience, that you won't  be ridiculed if you use MSA, but that doesn't change the fact that it  doesn't sound natural to native speakers.  Telling you otherwise would  be misleading you.


Above all, there's obviously a _huge _difference between "not natural" and "ridiculous".

I certainly don't expect to be told that using MSA in everyday contexts sounds completely natural.
That's not the point. I'm perfectly aware it doesn't.
But what I see is that I'm told it actually sounds "ridiculous", even for foreigners.


----------



## Masjeen

Sidjanga said:


> what I see is that I'm told it actually sounds "ridiculous", even for foreigners.


 
Yes it sounds "ridiculous" even for foreigners so that you have to learn any local dialect in order to use it in speech, the dialect is much faster in speech than the MSA/Fus7a and very easy to learn.. you can also mix the iraqi arabic with arabic gulf with the syrian arabic as you want with no problems at all..

urridu an athhaba ela al-kowait (i want to go: MSA)
abi aroh lelek-wait (i want to go to kuwait: kuwaiti arabic)


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## Sidjanga

Other peoples' opinions on this thread (here, for example) seem to differ from this strong and absolute view.
In any case, I would still like to know how these two statements go toghether:





elroy said:


> We are always happy to see foreigners speak our  language, no matter  which variety they use.
> [...]
> ... even more ridiculous than foreigners speaking fus7a all the time  (...)


They do seem contradictory.


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## Masjeen

speaking fus7a in speech is like speaking latin in paris..!


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## Sidjanga

Masjeen said:


> speaking fus7a in speech is like speaking *L*atin in *P*aris..!


Quite obviously, French news are not in Latin, nor are political or other speeches, cartoons, cientific and other technical books and literature, newspapers or any other things,  in France or any other French-speaking country. 
Quite as obviously, French speakers would probably not understand a word if you actually started talking to them in Latin - unless they'd thoroughly studied it themselves.

MSA, on the contrary, _is _quite obviously - and naturally - used for all those things and possibly others - and it's normally well understood by the vast majority of native Arabic speakers.
Also, it's obviously this variant of the Arabic language that's normally (first) taught to people interested in learning Arabic as a foreign language.


----------



## Muwahid

Masjeen said:


> speaking fus7a in speech is like speaking latin in paris..!



Don't you think that's an extreme assertion. Although I do agree 3amiyyah is ideal when living in the Arab world and it wouldn't be preferable to speak fus7a all the time (not for the listeners nor yourself) but isn't it useful when encountering Arabs with dialects which are hard to understand, like the Moroccans? Since fus7a is universal it should be considered the most important 'dialect' to learn. Then other major dialects (which I've been finding easier as I progress in learning fus7a). Not to mention it's importance in most major media, literature, and written works. So there's no denying it's great importance and widespread comprehension in the Arab world. 

Like I said the natives I know all think of it as fancy talk. Native to native might get a funny look for just randomly talking in Fus7a (or even a chuckle). I think the arguments being made here are more of technicalities of what one may have said, regardless we can derive from this thread, that if you want to be fluent in Arabic and sound natural everyday Fus7a isn't the way to go.


----------



## Masjeen

Muwahid said:


> isn't it useful when encountering Arabs with dialects which are hard to understand, like the Moroccans?.


 
well in that case we use a Hybrid dialect by Mix our dialect with fus7a we do it alot


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## Masjeen

Sidjanga said:


> Also, it's obviously this variant of the Arabic language that's normally (first) taught to people interested in learning Arabic as a foreign language.


 
if you have learned fus7a you can learn the arabic dialects Rapidly and mix them as you want


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## Sidjanga

Masjeen said:


> well in that case we use a Hybrid dialect by Mix our dialect with fus7a we do it alot





Masjeen said:


> if you have learned fus7a you can learn the  arabic dialects Rapidly and mix them as you want


Which is certainly quite easy to do for you as native speakers. But it's somewhere between quite difficult and simply impossible for someone who's been studying Arabic/فصحى  as a foreign language for a few months or a year and a half, who is not even fluent in that variant of the language yet, and is struggling - but manages - to somehow express themselves and make themselves understood.

Are you aware of just how determined you have to be to learn Arabic as a foreign language - not only, but also precisely because of this whole diglossia issue* - and just how off-putting your comments are, qualifying talking in فصحى in everyday contexts as outright "ridiculous" and such, with respect to everyone and anyone?
________________
* which, apart from the difficulty it adds, is of course a quite interesting aspect of the language


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## L.2

There is no such thing as MSA is ridiculous and dialects are not. Anyone can speak whatever they are most comfortable with. I have a Russian neighbor and he always speaks fus7a, I have never thought about it till I read this thread but really no one thinks it's ridiculous. His language is very natural, it's not too classical as elroy's example هل لك ان تساعدني but a modern one ممكن تساعدني/ ساعدني من فضلك/ أحتاج مساعدتك
I think those who don't like MSA is that because their ears haven't got used to hear MSA in daily conversations. I think MSA is really a must for someone wants to communicate with all Arabs. I remember in a TV show, the presenter was Syrian and the guest was American. The American was asked if he can understand Arabic, he said yes if the presenter spoke slowly with a Saudi dialect. The Syrian laughed since he isn't Saudi and wouldn't speak Saudi but said he would speak Fus7a instead. really why would someone expect a non Saudi to speak Saudi? Even though they understand the Saudi dialect but won't speak it themselves, just like an English-speaker from US who can understand someone from the UK but yet won't speak a British dialect.


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## Masjeen

L.2 said:


> I think those who don't like MSA is that because their ears haven't got used to hear MSA in daily conversations.


 
If I came back to the Middle Ages May I become accustomed to Fus7a..


----------



## Sidjanga

*Masjeen*, so would you personally go so far as to say that MSA used in everyday situations sounds "ridiculous" enough so that it would be better for foreigners to not say anything at all in Arabic (in everyday situations) before they haven't managed to express themselves in some dialect?


----------



## Masjeen

sidjanga, the problem is not related on the language by itself but on the accent.. older arabic (MSA) is very slow while current arabic is very fast 4x.. 

for us it is very ridiculous to use it in the "street" but it is fine with the foreigners to use the MSA so do not worry about that..

on the other hand use the dialect in writing is so ridiculous and Totally unacceptable Even for children in primary schools Whose programmed their minds to write in MSA automatically..

Most of the arabs thinks that all the languages has Diglossia.. while the fact is not


----------



## Hulalessar

A fascinating thread, the most interesting aspect of which is how non-native speakers of Arabic have insisted on telling native speakers how it is. Since I do not know Arabic I can only rely on what native Arabic speakers tell me. What they tell me differs a bit from person to person, but on the whole I hear explanations along the lines of what the native Arabic speakers are saying in this thread.

Someone above said that Arabic speakers think diglossia applies to every language. Native speakers of a language like English may find the concept of diglossia difficult to grasp. (I am of course talking about significant diglossia.) Typically, they will learn a language like French or Spanish first and what they learn, though it may not be completely colloquial, will serve perfectly well to communicate with native French or Spanish speakers. When they come to learn Arabic it is different. They will find, if not told, that they are learning a language which, though it can be spoken, no one really speaks, but at the same time is by no means a dead language. It must be at least a trifle annoying for it to be suggested that the language you have taken pains to learn is likely to sound a bit quaint (is that the word people are looking for?).

I also think that some of the non-native speakers of Arabic who have contributed to this thread may be suffering from something like the observer effect. What they are observing is something that is affected by the fact that they are taking part in it.


----------



## Muwahid

Not to mention you need to know fus7a to a good extent to understand media, and literature. If you want to be proficient in Arabic you need to learn fus7a and be able to at least understand several dialects. That was my initial frustration, I can understand A, B, and C easily, but Mr So-n-So's speech sounds like complete gibberish to me! But like I said and like Masjeen also said dialects and fus7a are connected and that gibberish of 3amiyyah becomes more and more intelligible to non-native ears-- now I'm starting to focus my attention to learning 3amiyyah as well because honestly it's more encouraging since everyone speaks it. I'll be able to understand them many times better. With months of fus7a I found I wasn't really grasping what people around me were saying and now it's obvious as to why.


----------



## Masjeen

well, learning MSA/fus7a is very important and that because most of the arabic dialects has its roots to fusha (Vocabulary and grammar) and also we use some words from MSA just like the english people use some word from latin but we use it more than them..

Finally, the fus7a is language of the books all the books newspaper in arab world Printed and published exclusively in fus7a even our national anthems in fus7a, formal speech etc..

Who doesn't learn fus7a didn't learn  Arabic


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## Kizzy

elroy said:


> An analogy can be made with Shakespearean English. Even if you were  fluent in it, you would sound very strange indeed if you went around  using _thee_'s and _thou_'s. (This analogy is not perfect, but most analogies aren't.)



Actually elroy, you cant compare shakespherian english, which is a dead language to fus7a, which is used in the literary field as well as media field and the professional field of everyday arab life. we dont broadcast, write books and teach shakespherian english, whereas this is the case with fusha.


----------



## clevermizo

Kizzy said:


> Actually elroy, you cant compare shakespherian english, which is a dead language to fus7a, which is used in the literary field as well as media field and the professional field of everyday arab life. we dont broadcast, write books and teach shakespherian english, whereas this is the case with fusha.



But you can compare the effect of how it would sound in casual, everyday speech. In other words talking in Early Modern English in casual conversation or talking in Fuṣħa in casual conversation produces the same æsthetic effect. I think that's the point that Elroy was making. As a medium of formalized discourse, you are correct in that one cannot make a comparison.


----------



## Kizzy

Sidjanga said:


> Hmm... what people? And in what situations?



smart people, all situations


----------



## Sidjanga

Kizzy said:


> smart people, all situations


Well, I don't know what exactly you man by "smart" people here, but I've had my own experiences with this whole issue now, and my personal experience in the West Bank was that you_ simply can't _speak فصحى there.  (I tried in the beginning but gave up very soon, and from then on only tried to communicate in the regional dialect.)

Not few people actually have difficulties understanding MSA (in my case probably also because they don't expect foreigners to speak any sort of Arabic, much less MSA). If they understand, most people find it indeed very weird and are thus still more likely to reply in English than they are anyway - even if you speak the local dialect with them (because for many people there, speaking English, not Arabic, is just what you do with foreigners). 

There are exeptions, of course - mostly (devout) Muslims - who are able and prepared or maybe even happy to have a relaxed, everyday conversation in MSA with you. (I had that _once_).


----------



## Kizzy

clevermizo said:


> But you can compare the effect of how it would sound in casual, everyday speech. In other words talking in Early Modern English in casual conversation or talking in Fuṣħa in casual conversation produces the same æsthetic effect. I think that's the point that Elroy was making. As a medium of formalized discourse, you are correct in that one cannot make a comparison.



You cant compare even that. However, I do sympathize with the opinions held here, I just don't agree.


----------



## إسكندراني

try these:
http://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%AF%D9%88%D9%8A%D8%AA%D8%B4%D9%87_%D9%81%D9%8A%D9%84%D9%87
http://www.almasryalyoum.com/multimedia/video
http://www.youtube.com/user/NatGeoAd


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## Ayazid

Kizzy said:


> You cant compare even that. However, I do sympathize with the opinions held here, I just don't agree.



Of course, you can compare that. The only difference is that the English speaking nations don't use the English of _The Canterbury Tales_ as their official standard language.


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## إسكندراني

I think this forum has gone way off topic, MSA in everyday speech should be what we're discussing. Non-relevant comments should be moved to a new one called 'The Nature of Arabic Diglossia' or something similar.


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## WadiH

Ayazid said:


> Of course, you can compare that. The only difference is that the English speaking nations don't use the English of _The Canterbury Tales_ as their official standard language.



That's a big difference, though.  So big that it arguably invalidates the whole comparison.  I think it's a good way to approximate the situation to someone who is completely unfamiliar with the subject, but that does not mean we should take this very rough approximation as being an accurate description of the actual situation.  The truth is that MSA does not sound like Shakespearean English to most Middle Easterners for the very reason you described.  There are in fact situations where speaking in pure dialect would make you sound ridiculous.


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## Norie

wow as an American student just beginning my Arabic journey I find this conversation fascinating but also a little disheartening.


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## Masjeen

Norie said:


> wow as an American student just beginning my Arabic journey I find this conversation fascinating but also a little disheartening.



No need for foil, ALL the MSA/Fus7a words are existing in our dialects.. Difference can be in the grammar and pronunciation.. If a small child did not exceed the age of four are able to absorb and understand the Arabic MSA through cartoons.. I expect from the adults a lot..


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## إسكندراني

As I live in the west, expat arab communities here are from across the board. At uni gatherings for example, it is not awkward to mix in a lot of fusHa, as long as u throw in some dialect here or there it doesn't sound pedantic. It's just a way of making sure we all understand, because as an egyptian, unless we're all lybians, egyptians and shaamis, not everyone will be used to hearing egyptian. i.e. I think there's always a 1-country buffer zone, beyond that it is acceptable to speak in fusHa, and the ability to converse in both simultaneously is extremely fun and many arabs in the west gain it; it is new to Arabs in their native countries because there is limited travel bwn the arab world due to distance, complication, cost - but mainly because the border is simply c-l-o-s-e-d (the ممنوع theory); expat-arabs and educated arabs (in either academia or religion) can do this diglossia thing much better than the average person roaming the allies of the traditional neighbourhoods - normal folk can understand but only respond in their own accent. And it doesn't sound pedantic if you bring the MSA closer to your native dialect; e.g. all dialects will eliminate end vowels, none use سوف


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## Abu Fahm

Here's my five cents:

In the beginning I couldnt understand 3amiya at all. But believe me who ever is intending to learn Arabic that the problem is not what some make it out to be.

If you have learned Fusha arabic to a level sufficient to understand articles at BBC arabic, it would not take you long to learn any one of the Iraqi, Saudi and Jordanian dialects by going through quick courses available on the net. All that is needed is to familiarise with basic dialect grammer, learn couple of hundred common dialect words and expressions and spend alot of time listening to voice recordings.

In my estimation it would take you a year if you live in non arabic environment to learn 3amiya to a reasonable extent that is if you already have a good working knowledge of MSA.

Other dialects like Egyptian, Syrian Gulf and ofcourse maghribi would be more difficult due to differences in pronounciation of some key letters and difference in stress. This dialects can be quickly learned after you become familiar with an easier dialect like Saudi for example.


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## thestandard

Apparently there is no precise correlative between situation of Arabic and that of the English language, yet could the aforementioned differences within Fus7a and its dialects be at least approaching tantamount to those between Spoken English and the style in which I am currently writing? I appercieve that personally, as a native speaker who discourses in English diurnally, I would never converse casually in the manner that I presently employing. Therefore I can conceive no coherent objective (save linguistic purism or ensuring reciprocated comprehension in dialogue) why a native Arabic interlocutor would attempt communication like so himself/herself... 

MSA and Arabic dialects have diverged much more than formal English norms and English dialects and of course grammar plays a much bigger role in Arabic. But just to make what I'm trying to establish clearer; I would feel completely strange and uncomfortable speaking like that in a casual conversation. I would simplify many of the words used above and substitute them with words which I am much more familiar with. I assume that this would be similar to the situation in Arabic... although as mentioned above, there is no perfect comparison.
I hope I conveyed my point...


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## clevermizo

thestandard said:


> Apparently there is no precise correlative between situation of Arabic and that of the English language, yet could the aforementioned differences within Fus7a and its dialects be at least approaching tantamount to those between Spoken English and the style in which I am currently writing? I appercieve that personally, as a native speaker who discourses in English diurnally, I would never converse casually in the manner that I presently employing. Therefore I can conceive no coherent objective (save linguistic purism or ensuring reciprocated comprehension in dialogue) why a native Arabic interlocutor would attempt communication like so himself/herself...



While that is true, you are definitely going out of your way to write in a way which would not normally be spoken. For example, 'diurnal' is rarely used in English writing, except in scientific literature. And tantamount is indeed a word that finds itself in conversation (I seriously just used it earlier today) although it's probably high register conversation. Words like that find themselves in colloquial Arabic of high register, even where the grammar remains colloquial. Unlike standard vs. colloquial Arabic, at least educated, standard English speakers can and do write the same way that they speak quite often, and to do so is correct in writing and normative in speaking. In fact, I'm doing it right now. However, written standard Arabic is rarely normative in speaking, although speech draws from the vocabulary of standard Arabic, and written colloquial Arabic is rarely correct in writing, although writing style can draw from colloquial style. 

Ultimately I don't think the comparison is productive. It is occasionally accurate, and occasionally misleading. I think that we can talk about the linguistic situation of the Arabic-speaking world without resorting to analogies.


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## thestandard

Unfortunately, being someone who speaks very little Arabic, analogies are my best friends. My point was that I can easily recognise a word like "apperceive", "diurnal" and "correlative" but they would only enter my active speech in formal or academic situations. Otherwise, I can easily summon them whenever I need in writing. If I used these words with people that I knew in a casual conversation, they would probably laugh. Like you said, analogies may not be healthy, but I am trying to wrap my head around the concept. 

In the case of English, replacing words of Germanic origin with their romance counterparts can prove rather formal if not pedantic in some contexts... Or maybe a better analogy would involve spoken Quebec French and Standard French... They are becoming increasingly diglossic; I don't see that many books written in Canadian patois which is a shame...

EDIT: Quebec French has always been quite divergent from Metropolitan French, I'm not sure if they are becoming increasingly diglossic.


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## GoldBug

The renowned Egyptian linguist Al-Said Badawi has classified the different "varieties" of Arabic used when an Egyptian speaks Arabic, beginning with
فصحى التراث  all the way "down" to عاميات أميين   I imagine the regional dialects can equally be classified in this way.  

The entire article in which Badawi's categories are listed is worth a read and can be found at:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varieties_of_Arabic
under *Formal vs. Vernacular Speech*.

One conclusion I have drawn from this article is the amazing fact that presumably, an Egyptian worker going to work at 8 am in the morning and returning home  at 5 pm could be exposed to or even use, *all of these varieties of Arabic during a single day !  *

That is to say, it is normal for a native speaker of Arabic living in an Arabic speaking environment to use or be exposed to several kinds of Arabic during the day.  He doesn't just speak "one" variety to the exclusion of the others.


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## akhooha

GoldBug said:


> ...
> The entire article in which Badawi's categories are listed is worth a read and can be found at:  Varieties of Arabic - Wikipedia
> under *Formal vs. Vernacular Speech*....


Coincidentally. it was just the other day that I discovered that Badawi's excellent work on this topic (مستويات العربية المعاصرة في مصر : بحث في علاقة اللغة بالحضارة), out of print since its first publication in 1973, was  republished last year by Dar al Salam: Mustawayāt al-ʻArabīyah al-muʻāṣirah fī Miṣr : baḥth fī ʻalāqat al-lughah bi-al-ḥaḍārah (Book, 2012) [WorldCat.org]


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## Qureshpor

If a foreigner who has learnt a bit of Arabic from books, would the "man in the street", that is to say an ordinary person in any Arab street, understand this sentence if it was uttered correctly? I sometimes wonder if learning "bookish Arabic" is a total waste of one's precious time. In an English speaking country, If I said, "I want to go home", instead of "I wanna go home", it will be understood by 100% of the people!

أرید أن أذهب إِلی  بیتي۔


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## apricots

It would be understood but sound strange. Whether you want to study written or spoken Arabic depends entirely on your goals and intended usage.


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## Schem

MSA (and derivatives) is still a widely used lingua franca. I wouldn't call learning it a waste of time but to focus one's goal is also good as mentioned.


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## elroy

apricots said:


> It would be understood but sound strange.


 Either that or it would _not_ be (readily) understood. 


Schem said:


> MSA (and derivatives) is still a widely used lingua franca. I wouldn't call learning it a waste of time but to focus one's goal is also good as mentioned.


 MSA is not a lingua franca, let alone a widely used one.  Nevertheless, it is of course not a waste of time to learn it, since, as apricots intimates, it has its uses, which complement those of colloquial Arabic.

I don’t know what you mean by MSA’s “derivatives.”


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## Abu Rashid

elroy said:


> MSA is not a lingua franca


Why do you say that? It certainly seems to be used that way in academia and between groups of Arabs who can't understand one anothers' dialects. It's also used this way by non-Arab Muslims.


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## apricots

Abu Rashid said:


> Why do you say that? It certainly seems to be used that way in academia and between groups of Arabs who can't understand one anothers' dialects. It's also used this way by non-Arab Muslims.



I don't want to speak for elroy but I think he's referring to how pure MSA is never spoken conversationally even if it were a Najdi speaking to a Moroccan. When Arabs from different regions speak to each other they adapt their dialect either using MSA words, more well known words in their own dialect, or even words from more widely understood dialects like urban Egyptian (linguistically I think it's called "accommodation") but they never switch to full on MSA.


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## Abu Rashid

apricots said:


> I don't want to speak for elroy but I think he's referring to how pure MSA is never spoken conversationally


The term "pure" has no meaning when speaking about languages, as there's no such thing as a "pure" language.



apricots said:


> even if it were a Najdi speaking to a Moroccan.


I've noticed Moroccans/Tunisians/Algerians speaking with other Arabs in Fus7a most likely because their dialects are just not understood at all, yes in reverse it's usually just some level of accommodation.


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## Schem

Both of you raise good points. MSA may not be a lingua franca in the classical sense but it's definitely employed in this capacity to varying degrees by many Arabs lacking an alternative.

The issue is one of register, imo, as most aren't accustomed to fully conversational MSA nor use it regularly.


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## wriight

Abu Rashid said:


> The term "pure" has no meaning when speaking about languages, as there's no such thing as a "pure" language.


You've taken the word "pure" sorely out of context, it seems. Within that sentence, "speaking pure MSA" can be rephrased to "purely speaking MSA", as it was a statement about how much MSA people override their dialectal speech with rather than a claim of linguistic superiority.

And, given that, it's a totally accurate reading of elroy's comment. People tend not to default to 100% MSA for the purposes of a lingua franca, instead preferring 'normalize' their dialects, as has been gone over a _lot_ in this thread.


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## elroy

I’ve presented my views in great detail in this thread of 150+ posts.  In a nutshell, native speakers conversing with each other occasionally resort to MSA to meet a particular need — whether in academic contexts or otherwise — but this is far too rare, and not nearly robust enough, for it to be plausible to describe MSA as anything even approaching a lingua franca.  Conversations using MSA only are virtually nonexistent among native speakers; I’ve personally never encountered this (except for certain TV shows in which MSA is used in a performative way).  This is probably more common among non-native speakers, many of whom don’t speak a dialect (well) to begin with, so MSA is their only choice.  But as far as I can tell, “lingua franca” is a major overstatement even if we consider usage among non-native speakers.


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