# never + present perfect + <until now><up until now><up to now><so far>



## JJXR

Hello to all,

Thanks for reading my post.


*Sample sentences:*

1. I've never driven a car *until now*.

2. I've never driven a car *up* *until now*.

3. I've never driven a car *up to now*.

4. I've never driven a car *so far*.

*Question:*

Versions #1, #2, and #3 imply that there's going to be a change: I've never driven a car, but I'm going to in the near future.

Version #4 has no such implication: it simply says that I've never driven a car (maybe I'm going to drive one in the near future, but maybe not).

Is this correct?


Thanks a lot for any comments, corrections or suggestions!

Regards,
JJXR


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## Franco-filly

I don't see the need for anything after "car" - If you've never driven a car it would include up to this moment.

If I was about to drive for the first time, I would say "I've never driven a car before"


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## Steven David

JJXR, here's my take on your sentences.

*Sample sentences:*

1. I've never driven a car *until now*. < 

And now that's what you're going to do. The phrase "until now" communicates this idea. It implies, or suggests, that this is what is going to happen. It's important, however, to note that this is not what it means. "Imply" and "mean" are two different things.

2. I've never driven a car *up* *until now*. <

And now that's what you're going to do. The phrase "up until now" communicates this idea. It implies, or suggests, that this is what is going to happen. It's important, however, to note that this is not what it means. "Imply" and "mean" are two different things. 

Using "up" is emphatic of the idea that this is "until the present moment". 

3. I've never driven a car *up to now*. <

This is correct and makes sense, but to me "until now" and "up until now" are more likely phrases to end this sentence.

4. I've never driven a car *so far*. <

This is correct and makes sense, but to me it doesn't seem to be a likely phrase for the end of this sentence. 

It makes it sound as though you've been trying a number of other vehicles, and now finally you're going to drive a car.


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## Glasguensis

You are more or less correct, but none of the four sentences are idiomatic, for the reasons mentioned by FF.


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## Steven David

By the way, JJXR, if you also want to know which of the four are more common, the first two are more common. I suggest using those two sentences to communicate this idea. They are correct in all ways. The other two are also correct but somehow, to me, as I said, just don't sound as likely as the other two.

Context is the determiner here, as usual, as well as speaker viewpoint. Therefore, not using the phrases "until now" or "up until now" is more neutral and does not imply that now you're about to drive a car.


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## DonnyB

I agree that 1-3 are virtually the same, and carry the inference that you're possibly about to do it.

To me, (4) suggests that you've driven a car before but only for short distances.  It's to do with the possible ambiguity of "so far" which would be removed if you started the sentence with it: 
4a:  So far, I've never driven a car.


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## Steven David

Also, with sentences one and two, there seems to be a somewhat heightened sense of expectation, which goes along with the idea that now someone is possibly about to drive a car. 

We could imagine that "until now" and "up until now" signify a certain type of psychological point of preparedness, with an underlying thought being "now I'm ready to drive a car".

I think that it is important to provide JJXR and others with an idea of the reasoning that goes with using sentences and phrases. In other words, sentence variation is always possible. However, why would someone use a variation?


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## JJXR

Thank you all for the responses.


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## JJXR

Hello to all,

Thanks for reading my post.


*Sample sentences:*

1. I never drove a car *until now*.

2. I never drove a car *up until now*.

3. I never drove a car *up to now*.

*Question:*

All three versions mean there was a period in my life during which I never drove a car. But now things have chagned: I've driven a car in the recent past at least once.

This meaning that I've now driven a car at least once will be lost if the simple past "drove" is replaced with the present perfect "have driven". The present perfect would mean that I still haven't driven a car, but I'm going to.

Is this correct?


Thanks a lot for any comments, corrections or suggestions!

Regards,
JJXR


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## DonnyB

Those might work in AE, but for me, at least, in BE that use of the simple past is wrong with "up to/until *now*" .


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## Glasguensis

Unless it describes a habitual action : I never drove a car (to work) until now (but I’ve just started). But your theory about the difference between present perfect and simple past is incorrect: in AE there is no difference and in BE, as DonnyB says, we wouldn’t use the simple past.


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## Roxxxannne

In my dialect of AE the simple past in this sentence indicates that my action or state of not driving is finished (I'm already a driver), and the present perfect means I'm still in the state of not driving.   But I could say 'I never drove until now' if I am looking ahead so much to driving that I feel as though I've already driven -- I'm excited and can't wait to drive.


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## Steven David

JJXR said:


> Hello to all,
> 
> Thanks for reading my post.
> 
> 
> *Sample sentences:*
> 
> 1. I never drove a car *until now*.
> 
> 2. I never drove a car *up until now*.
> 
> 3. I never drove a car *up to now*.
> 
> *Question:*
> 
> All three versions mean there was a period in my life during which I never drove a car. But now things have chagned: I've driven a car in the recent past at least once.
> 
> This meaning that I've now driven a car at least once will be lost if the simple past "drove" is replaced with the present perfect "have driven". The present perfect would mean that I still haven't driven a car, but I'm going to.
> 
> Is this correct?
> 
> 
> Thanks a lot for any comments, corrections or suggestions!
> 
> Regards,
> JJXR




> The present perfect would mean that I still haven't driven a car, but I'm going to. < 

The present perfect, here, would mean that you have driven a car. However, it could also mean that you haven't driven a car, and you're about to drive a car *right now*. Or maybe your behind the wheel and about to start driving now.

I haven't driven a car until now, so let's get started. Where's the key?  

"Now" is relative, and what is "now" at this moment quickly becomes "not now". It keeps happening.


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## JJXR

Thank you all for the responses.


Roxxxannne said:


> In my dialect of AE the simple past in this sentence indicates that my action or state of not driving is finished (I'm already a driver), and the present perfect means I'm still in the state of not driving. But I could say 'I never drove until now' if I am looking ahead so much to driving that I feel as though I've already driven -- I'm excited and can't wait to drive.


Basically, you agree with what I wrote in post #9, right?


Steven David said:


> The present perfect, here, would mean that you have driven a car. However, it could also mean that you haven't driven a car, and you're about to drive a car *right now*.


_I*'ve* never *driven* until now, but have just taken a nice trip to London in the car I bought yesterday.

I never *drove* until now, but have just taken a nice trip to London in the car I bought yesterday._

Do the two above sentences work for you?


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## Roxxxannne

JJXR said:


> Thank you all for the responses.
> 
> Basically, you agree with what I wrote in post #9, right?
> 
> _I*'ve* never *driven* until now, but have just taken a nice trip to London in the car I bought yesterday.
> 
> I never *drove* until now, but have just taken a nice trip to London in the car I bought yesterday._
> 
> Do the two above sentences work for you?


Yes, I agree with what you wrote in post #9.  I was in part replying to DonnyB in #10 and Glasguensis in #11.   Apparently in BE the simple past is incorrect in this situation.  To me #9 is not incorrect but unusual.


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## Steven David

JJXR said:


> Thank you all for the responses.
> 
> _I*'ve* never *driven* until now, but have just taken a nice trip to London in the car I bought yesterday.
> 
> I never *drove* until now, but have just taken a nice trip to London in the car I bought yesterday._
> 
> Do the two above sentences work for you?




No, not exactly. Somehow, the clauses don't go with each other in each sentence. I don't know how to explain this one. However, they don't seem right to me.

I've just taken a nice trip to London in the car I bought yesterday. I've never driven until now.

Two separate sentences without "but" work better.

I would say no to the one with simple past. The idea of "until now" does not go well with simple past. At least, they don't go together very well in this particular sentence or in this context.


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## DonnyB

JJXR said:


> _I*'ve* never *driven* until now, but have just taken a nice trip to London in the car I bought yesterday.
> 
> I never *drove* until now, but have just taken a nice trip to London in the car I bought yesterday._
> 
> Do the two above sentences work for you?



No.  I think you need to alter the first clause to something like:
"I'*d* never driven *before*...."

Maybe it's just me, butI don't altogether see how you can logically talk about never having done something _*until now*_, when you've already just done it.


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## Steven David

DonnyB said:


> Maybe it's just me, butI don't altogether see how you can logically talk about never having done something _*until now*_, when you've already just done it.




I think sometimes we have to place ourselves in a situation to imagine how something is possible with language.

Imagine someone going fishing.

Someone struggles very hard to reel in a big fish that weighs a lot.

Finally, the guy finishes reeling in the fish, and it's in a bucket or on the boat.

He could say this:

Wow! I've never caught a fish this big before. (until now)

Of course, very soon after (in about an hour?), this would become the past. However, in that moment, it could be present perfect.


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## JJXR

Thanks for your responses, Roxxxannne, Steven David and DonnyB.


Steven David said:


> The idea of "until now" does not go well with simple past.





JJXR said:


> _I never *drove* until now, but *have* just *taken* a nice trip to London in the car I bought yesterday._


My sentence with the simple past "drove" (post #14) can be made into the pattern suggested by Glasguensis in post #11. I don't really see the difference between the two versions in terms of the meaning they convey:


Glasguensis said:


> I never *drove *a car (to work) until now (but I*’ve* just *started*).


_I never *drove* a car (to any place) until now (but I*’ve* just *started* by taking a nice trip to London in the car I bought yesterday)._


DonnyB said:


> I don't altogether see how you can logically talk about never having done something _*until now*_, when you've already just done it


I agree. That's why I think it would be logical to say (post #9):


JJXR said:


> The present perfect would mean that I still haven't driven a car, but I'm going to.


Roxxxannne says approximately the same thing (post #12):


Roxxxannne said:


> In my dialect of AE the simple past in this sentence indicates that my action or state of not driving is finished (I'm already a driver), and the present perfect means I'm still in the state of not driving.





DonnyB said:


> I'*d* never driven *before*...


You've introduced the word "before". But with "until now", why use the past perfect when we are talking about something that was the case until now, not until some time in the past?

_Last year, I bought a new car. I*'d* never *driven* until then, but that very year I took a nice trip to London in that car.

Last year, I bought a new car. I never *drove* until now, but I've just taken a nice trip to London in that car._

That's how I understand the difference between the past perfect and the simple past in this case. Is my understanding not correct?


Steven David said:


> Wow! I've never caught a fish this big before. (until now)


The catching of the fish is in the recent past:

_Wow! I*'ve* never *caught* a fish this big until now.
Wow! I*'ve* never *caught* a fish this big before._

The catching of the fish is in the past:

_Wow! I*'d* never* caught* a fish that big until then.
Wow! I*'d* never *caught* a fish that big before._

Are all these versions correct in the context you came up with in post #18?


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## Glasguensis

JJXR said:


> My sentence with the simple past "drove" (post #14) can be made into the pattern suggested by Glasguensis in post #11. I don't really see the difference between the two versions in terms of the meaning they convey:
> 
> _I never *drove* a car (to any place) until now (but I*’ve* just *started* by taking a nice trip to London in the car I bought yesterday)._



You have overlooked the fact that I said that it would have to refer to a habitual action: your driving to London is not a habitual action. I never drove a car to work before but since last month I drive to work on Mondays and Thursdays.



> That's how I understand the difference between the past perfect and the simple past in this case. Is my understanding not correct?


Your understanding is indeed not correct.


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## Steven David

> The catching of the fish is in the recent past:
> 
> _Wow! I*'ve* never *caught* a fish this big until now.
> Wow! I*'ve* never *caught* a fish this big before._
> 
> The catching of the fish is in the past:
> 
> _Wow! I*'d* never* caught* a fish that big until then.
> Wow! I*'d* never *caught* a fish that big before._
> 
> Are all these versions correct in the context you came up with in post #18?



Yes, they are correct. However, remove "wow" in the last two examples, which are past. 

_I*'d* never* caught* a fish that big until then.

I*'d* never *caught* a fish that big before._


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## JJXR

Thanks for your responses, Glasguensis and Steven David.

In post #17, DonnyB replaced the words "until now" with the word "before". If I keep the words "until now" in my sentence, is it correct to use the past perfect "had driven" in it:
_
I*'d* never *driven* until now, but I've just taken a nice trip to London in the car I bought yesterday._


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## Steven David

Generally, I would say no.

However, I would say that it also depends on how close to the present a past action, activity, or event is. If a past action, activity, or event is very close to the present, which is to say "at the present moment", then it could work. In any event, I would not fault a speaker for saying a sentence like this. It would be that person's viewpoint of an action, activity, or event in the moment and in context. We have to use our imaginations to transport ourselves to a situation or circumstance in order to fully understand why someone would say something in a particular way. This is one reason that films, or movies, are invaluable when it comes to understanding things like this.

These are all very interesting questions. When understanding how time marking words and phrases go with verb tense and verb aspect, I do not believe it's possible to always, 100% of the time, count something as correct or incorrect. It depends on the circumstance, the viewpoint of the speaker, and the time marking words and phrases in question. At some point in certain situations or circumstances, the words people choose have to do with their psychological viewpoint of an action, activity, or event in context and in the moment.

As I see it, you are on the right track to gaining full understanding of how all of this works. To really understand something like this, we have to look at many examples and ask about them.

In effect, there's "the basic present perfect lesson". And then there's fully understanding present perfect. The latter takes some time and is not necessarily all wrapped up in one, two, or three classes or lessons. This is why questions about verb tense and verb aspect are continual at this forum.


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## DonnyB

JJXR said:


> Thanks for your responses, Glasguensis and Steven David.
> 
> In post #17, DonnyB replaced the words "until now" with the word "before". If I keep the words "until now" in my sentence, is it correct to use the past perfect "had driven" in it:
> 
> _I*'d* never *driven* until now, but I've just taken a nice trip to London in the car I bought yesterday._


I would say no, because the pluperfect normally denotes something which took place before something else_ in the past_, and so it clashes with until now, which implies _before the present.    _


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## JJXR

Thanks for your responses, Steven David and DonnyB.

The following two sentences are correct sentences from my earlier threads:

_A. I *didn't drink* for the past ten days, so I've just killed a whole three bottles of vodka. (this link)
B. I *didn't have* breakfast the past three days, so I've just had a big one. (this link)_

This is what PaulQ says about "until now" in this thread:


PaulQ said:


> "until now" = prior to this time; earlier; before now.


DonnyB also says that "until now" implies "before now":


DonnyB said:


> I would say no, because the pluperfect normally denotes something which took place before something else_ in the past_, and so it clashes with until now, which implies _before the present._


In sentences A and B above, "the past ten days" and "the past three days" are time periods before now. According to PaulQ and DonnyB, "until now" is equivalent to "before now", so we can rewrite sentences A and B as follows:

_A*. I *didn't drink* until now, so I've just killed a whole three bottles of vodka.
B*. I *didn't have* breakfast until now, so I've just had a big one._


JJXR said:


> _I*'d* never *driven* until now, but I've just taken a nice trip to London in the car I bought yesterday._


Consequently, the correct tense to use in the quoted sentence is the simple past because it relates to a time period before now:

_I never *drove* until now, but I've just taken a nice trip to London in the car I bought yesterday._

In other words, I wasn't a driver before now, but now I am since I've just taken a nice trip to London in the car I bought yesterday. Where, in what I've written above, is my thinking wrong?


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## Steven David

Both sentences are possible.

> I've never driven until now. <

Both of the following apply to the above sentence as a possible underlying reason for saying the sentence. This depends on speaker viewpoint in the moment and context.

1) And now I'm about to drive.

2) And I just finished taking my first drive now.

________________

> I had never driven until now. <

The following is an underlying reason, also, for saying the above sentence.

2) And I just finished taking my first drive now. (stepping out of the car now)

With reference to the two examples above, whether a person uses present perfect or past perfect depends on a person's viewpoint in the moment in context.

With the past perfect example, the activity of driving a car comes before now. This lines up with how past perfect is normally used. The time that we call "now" continually slips into the past.

With the present perfect example, the activity is relevant up until now whether the person completed the activity or did not complete the activity. If the person completed the activity and uses present perfect, then this means that, soon after, the person will start using the past.

I had never driven a car (until X ago).

Each example has to be taken on its own terms in accordance with speaker viewpoint, co-text, and context.

Present perfect only means relevant or complete up until now.

Past perfect only means relevant or complete up until some point in the past. And that point in the past can be very recent, so recent that we might even refer to it as "until now".

________________

You've never driven before now, have you?

You never drove before now. Right?

Up until now, you've never driven, have you?

You had never driven before, had you? This was your first drive. Right?

This = Your first drive from the not-so-distant past

Just finishing driving and stepping out of the car, this is possible:

I had never driven a car until now.

________________

We might find that a time adjustment in context affects, or influences, what a speaker says.


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## JJXR

Thanks for the explanation, Steven David.

Could anyone please comment on my analysis in post #25? If it is flawed, then please point out to me where exactly. Thanks in advance.


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## DonnyB

JJXR said:


> Could anyone please comment on my analysis in post #25? If it is flawed, then please point out to me where exactly. Thanks in advance.



I wouldn't use the simple past in any of those examples, especially not the ones about not drinking or having breakfast, both of which (or at the very least the one about breakfast) must logically mean that the gap must have only been a temporary one.  In contrast in the one about never having driven before, the reverse is clearly the case.


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## Glasguensis

Where your logic fails in post #25 is where you equate « the past ten days » with « until now ». We do not consider temporary conditions (the past ten days) in the same way as permanent conditions (until now). A sentence which works with a particular tense when one of the time period phrases is used  does not necessarily work with the same tense when a different time period phrase is used.


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## lingobingo

A few observations, for what they’re worth, but without the benefit of reading all of this long thread.

I agree that the simple past with *until* is not idiomatic in the English spoken in England. (I’m not attempting to speak for any other BE region or dialect or country.) I also winced at “up until”.

I’ve never driven a car 
— means exactly what it says and no more.

1–3. I’ve never driven a car … *until */* up* *until */* up to *now. 
• They all mean the same. In each case it’s the addition in bold that tells us something has just changed, or is about to – not the verb tense itself. 

4. I've never driven a car *so far*.
• In this version, the addition in bold doesn’t tell us anything we don’t already know about the current situation, but it does hint that driving a car in the future is a distinct possibility.


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## JJXR

Thanks for your responses, DonnyB, Glasguensis and lingobingo.

I would also be interested to know what American English speakers think about my analysis in post #25. Thanks in advance.


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## Forero

For me, "until now" merely suggests something may be different now, but it does not say, mean, or imply that something must be different now. The suggestion comes from my surmise as to why the speaker bothered to add those words, not from their intrinsic meaning in such a sentence.

This is true for me whether I use "never drove" or "have never driven".

For me, "I have never driven a car" means that "I drove a car" is simply untrue for any time in the past whatsoever, but "I never drove a car" suggests the speaker is thinking of one or more past opportunities to drive that he or she either missed or refused for some reason or other.


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## JJXR

Thanks for the response, Forero.


JJXR said:


> A*. I *didn't drink* until now, so I've just killed a whole three bottles of vodka.





JJXR said:


> B*. I *didn't have* breakfast until now, so I've just had a big one.





JJXR said:


> I never *drove* until now, but I've just taken a nice trip to London in the car I bought yesterday.


Does the simple past work in the quoted sentences in American English?


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## Steven David

JJXR said:


> Does the simple past work in the quoted sentences in American English?



I would say no, generally speaking.

However, the form is not 100% inconceivable.

I speak here of the second sentence, which is about breakfast.

If someone just finished eating breakfast, then I can imagine it's possible that someone could say "I didn't eat breakfast until now".

The simple past would account for finishing breakfast, as in one complete action in the past, and "now" would account for the recentness of the action.

B*. I *didn't have* breakfast until now, so I've just had a big one.

A little more information could make it sound more natural or usual, as well.

I was so hungry, and I didn't have breakfast until now, so I just had a big breakfast and now I'm not hungry.

Or this one

I was so hungry, and I didn't have breakfast until now, so I've just had a big breakfast and now I'm not hungry.

I would not make any across-the-board judgments about three sentences together, for example. I consider each sentence separately.

I would have to say no for the other two sentences. Simple past does not work in those two.

_______________

A bit more about breakfast

You mean you didn't eat anything until just now?

Yes, that's right. I just ate now. I didn't eat anything before this.

You mean you haven't eaten anything until just now?

Yes, that's right. This is the first thing I've eaten since I woke up a few hours ago.

Both examples are correct. We can use present perfect or simple past.

In my online message conversations with a linguist who taught English in England for years, I understand, from him, that the idea that Americans use simple past more often and the British use present perfect more often is not true. This is his observation of everyday speaking in England when he was there. Maybe, he can attribute this to research, as well. He's Australian.

I agree with this. I do not find that there is a shortage of present perfect sentences in my speech or in the speech that I listen to and read.

The difference is more personal - person to person - than national, I would say.


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## JJXR

Thanks for the explanation, Steven David.


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## Forero

JJXR said:


> Does the simple past work in the quoted sentences in American English?


They seem a little strange without any supporting context. What is your purpose in changing tenses in mid-sentence?


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## JJXR

Thanks for the response, Forero.


Forero said:


> What is your purpose in changing tenses in mid-sentence?


I don't quite understand your question. But if you're asking why I want to use the simple past with "until now" and then use the present perfect later in the sentence, then it is because I want to show that something was the case until now but now it isn't.


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## Steven David

Hi JJXR,

With this last set of examples you posted here, there's something I would take note of that makes a difference.

It is possible for someone to go a lifetime without drinking, that is to say drinking alcohol, of course. 

It is also possible for someone to go a lifetime without driving.

Both of these situations could change, and then someone can drink and someone can drive at some point.

Breakfast, however, is something else. No one can go years and years, or an entire lifetime up until some point, without eating breakfast. Or we usually would not expect this to happen. 

So this tells me something about why I perceived that particular sentence one way and perceived the other sentences another way.

I suppose it's possible to break this down even more and analyze it more. However, I just think that this particular point is significant. 

It's significant because it informs us that vocabulary, context, and speaker viewpoint all come together when we choose present tense, past tense, or an aspect of present or past tense. This is particularly so with vocabulary. Talking about breakfast caused me to think one way about choosing a verb form, and talking about drinking or driving caused me to think another way about choosing a verb form. 

This shows, also, how it's practical to take one sentence at a time and talk about one sentence on its own merit. When we change context or vocabulary, sometimes we change what is possible for a verb form. Anyway, that's how I see it.


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## Forero

JJXR said:


> Thanks for the response, Forero.
> 
> I don't quite understand your question. But if you're asking why I want to use the simple past with "until now" and then use the present perfect later in the sentence, then it is because I want to show that something was the case until now but now it isn't.


I don't see any of these sentences doing that, at least not effectively.

For that, I think maybe you mean:

_I hadn't taken a drink until just now, but now I've just killed a whole three bottles of vodka. 
Up until a short time ago, I hadn't had breakfast, but now I have. 
I had never driven until very recently, but now I've taken a nice trip to London in a car I just bought yesterday._


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## Glasguensis

It’s important that you understand that 99% of the time the tense of the verb doesn’t actually tell us anything that we don’t already know - it’s purely a case of choosing one which is appropriate. That’s one of the main reasons there is such a difference in choice between present perfect and simple past in different versions of English - the actual choice doesn’t really matter for the meaning.


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## JJXR

Thanks for your responses, Steven David, Forero and Glasguensis.

Do the sentences suggested in post #39 work for you, Forero, the way I've written them below:

_I *hadn't taken* a drink until now, but now I've just killed a whole three bottles of vodka. 

Up until now, I *hadn't had *breakfast, but now I have. 

I *had* never *driven* until now, but now I've taken a nice trip to London in a car I just bought yesterday._

I'm wondering about the bolded tenses and the words "(up) until now".


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## Forero

These sentences rely on "now" meaning "just (now)" (= "a very short time ago"), and I feel they need context to make that clear:

_I *hadn't taken* a drink until now, but now I've just killed a whole three bottles of vodka._ [I would omit the second _now_.] 

_Up until now, I *hadn't had *breakfast, but now I have._ [I would add _just_ before the first _now_.]

_I *had* never *driven* until now, but now I've taken a nice trip to London in a car I just bought yesterday._ [I would add _just_ before _now_ and change _now I've_ to _I've just_.]


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## JJXR

Thanks for the explanation, Forero.


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