# Et cetera



## my-own-fantasy

Hi,
Is there an abbreviation for the english word "etcetera" in French??
I know that the French word is "et caetera", but what about an abbv?

ex://
There were a lot of animals. (a cat, a dog, a fish, etc.)
_Il y a ete beaucoup des animaux. (un chat, un chien, un poisson,etc.)_

Thanks!

*Moderator note: *multiple threads merged to create this one.  
If you are interested in matters of pronunciation, please see  et cetera, et cætera (prononciation)


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## themaster

"etc."


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## tilt

Beware:
*Il y avait beaucoup* *d'animaux (un chat, un chien, un poisson, etc.).*


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## Kat LaQ

It's my impression that the French use the "points de suspension" more often than etc., and more often than we do in English.

*(un chat, un chien, un poisson, ...)*


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## Nicomon

Kat LaQ said:


> It's my impression that the French use the "points de suspension" more often than etc., and more often than we do in English.
> 
> *(un chat, un chien, un poisson, ...)*


 
Good point Kat LaQ.   Actually, the rule is, "either or".  The 3 « points de suspension » have the same value as the abbreviation *etc.*  What would be wrong is to write *etc...*



> à la fin de listes non-exhaustives (même utilisation que etc. — à noter que _etc._ ayant la même valeur que _…_, on n'écrit jamais _etc..._)


 source


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## tilt

[...]

In the example given by Kat LaQ, no comma should be set before the break: un chat, un chien, un poisson...


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## Nicomon

tilt said:


> [...]
> In the example given by Kat LaQ, *no comma* should be set before the break: un chat, un chien, un poisson...


 
Absolutely. I forgot to mention this last detail. Comma before *etc.* No comma before*...*  

You can find everything you want to know about abbreviations (well... almost) here

Incidentally, when you write it at large (but who does?), it is perfectly OK to write _et cetera_,  rather than the latin form _et c__ætera_


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## mplsray

my-own-fantasy said:


> Hi,
> Is there an abbreviation for the english word "etcetera" in French??
> I know that the French word is "et caetera", but what about an abbv?
> *ex://*
> *There were a lot of animals. (a cat, a dog, a fish, etc.)*
> *Il y a ete beaucoup des animaux. (un chat, un chien, un poisson,etc.)*
> Thanks!


 
French readers have likely recognized that the _etcetera_ used above is an incorrect spelling in English for _et cetera,_ the expression meaning "and so forth."

What they may not know--what even many English speakers may not be aware of--is that there is an English noun spelled _etcetera_ (no space), defined in Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary as "a number of unspecified additional persons or things." In the plural, _etceteras,_ the noun can also mean "unspecified additional items *:* ODDS AND ENDS."


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## Nicomon

mplsray said:


> What they may not know--what even many English speakers may not be aware of--is that there is an English noun spelled _etcetera_ (no space), defined in Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary as "a number of unspecified additional persons or things." In the plural, _etceteras,_ the noun can also mean "unspecified additional items *:* ODDS AND ENDS."


 
Etcetera can also be used as a name and pluralized in French. Rectified orthograph even added the accents etc*é*t*é*ra(s). But to be honest... I just found out.  
I think I'd say _des extras_ for the first meaning, and "odds and ends" (bits and pieces) can be translated as _objets divers/bricoles/babioles/bric à brac_


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## my-own-fantasy

Could I use "etc." though??? Instead of "des extras"


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## Nicomon

my-own-fantasy said:


> Could I use "etc." though??? Instead of "des extras"


 
To mean "and so forth", yes of course. But not in the one word sense that mplsray explained, for which I gave French options. At least, I wouldn't.


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## Paf le chien

More typographic/phonetical conventions :

- "_etc._" *should* be written (not mandatory but recommended) in italics [...]

- even more important for "_et cætera_": *must* be written in italics [...]

- "_et cætera_" can also be written (if "æ" is not available, as it's not a French character) "_et cetera"_, both in italics and with *no accent*, [...])


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## Nicomon

> Paf le chien;2958828]More typographic/phonetical conventions :
> 
> - "_etc._" *should* be written (not mandatory but recommended) in italics, as it is a foreign language abbreviation [...]


Les grammairiens se contredisent...



> L'expression au long et l'abréviation *sont toutes deux francisées*. *C'est pourquoi elles ne s'écrivent pas en italique*, comme c'est le cas des mots étrangers employés dans un texte français. [...]


Pour plus d'info, cliquer ici là et là

Peut s’écrire : et cætera, et cetera ou et caetera.
Graphie rectifiée : etcétéra (avec une accentuation conforme à la prononciation).


Ceci dit, la graphie rectifiée suggérée n'est pas encore passée à l'usage. J'écris et cetera, sans accent. Mais plus souvent, etc. (sans italique)


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## Paf le chien

Je ne parlais pas de _grammaire_, mais de _typographie_.

[...]

En _typographie_ française, tout mot ou expression d'origine étrangère s'écrit en italique. Le latin a _parfois_ des exception, comme « etc. » qui peut s'écrire sans italique.

PS : Pour voir _tous_ les caractères (y compris API), choisir une police UTF8 standard 

PPS : « la typographie est l'art d'écrire sans être vu »


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## Nicomon

Paf le chien said:


> Je ne parlais pas de _grammaire_, mais de _typographie_.
> 
> En _typographie_ française, tout mot ou expression d'origine étrangère s'écrit en italique. Le latin a _parfois_ des exception, comme « etc. » qui peut s'écrire sans italique.


 
Bien d'accord. Grammairiens était un mauvais choix de terme. Mais comme il est question ici de *et cetera* (et non des expressions d'origine étrangère en général), j'ai cru utile de donner l'entrée de la BDL après avoir lu dans ton post #17 ceci : as it is a foreign language abbreviation et ceci : "_et cetera"_, both in italics  


Je suis nulle en typo et en TI. Où puis-je trouver la police UTF8 standard, et peut-on aussi l'utiliser avec un clavier qwerty?


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## doodlebugger

Kat LaQ said:


> It's my impression that the French use the "points de suspension" more often than etc., and more often than we do in English.


 
I was once told that I should not use "..." instead of _etc_. in English. 
I understood that ... is used almost as a pause and something is expected afterward, whereas _etc_. can end the sentence (like _and so forth_).
Is this correct?


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## Paf le chien

doodlebugger said:


> I was once told that I should not use "..." instead of _etc_. in English.
> I understood that ... is used almost as a pause and something is expected afterward, whereas _etc_. can end the sentence (like _and so forth_).
> Is this correct?



etc. alway ends the sentence (it is like a fullstop)

"..." can be used to replace etc.

But "..." can also other things that "etc." cannot, like 

- a long pause: « Je dis... non ! »
- introduce and ellipse (a  sugestion to the reader) : « Ça, c'est ce qu'il a bien voulu nous dire... » suggesting he knows some more.


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## doodlebugger

Paf le chien said:


> etc. alway ends the sentence (it is like a fullstop)


 
I am not sure this is correct.
I have seen many times _etc_. followed by a com*m*a.
The dot at the end of _etc_. indicates an abbreviation, not a full stop.
The same goes for _et al_.


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## tilt

Paf le chien said:


> etc. alway ends the sentence (it is like a fullstop)
> 
> "..." can be used to replace etc.
> 
> But "..." can also other things that "etc." cannot, like
> 
> - a long pause: « Je dis... non ! »
> - introduce and ellipse (a  sugestion to the reader) : « Ça, c'est ce qu'il a bien voulu nous dire... » suggesting he knows some more.


Il arrive à Paf le chien d'écrire des bêtises, des âneries, des boulettes, etc., mais ça reste exceptionnel.


Yet, you're right about the break which not always means etc.


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## mplsray

doodlebugger said:


> I am not sure this is correct.
> I have seen many times _etc_. followed by a coma.
> The dot at the end of _etc_. indicates an abbreviation, not a full stop.
> The same goes for _et al_.


 

It's not _coma,_ but _comma._

In American English, the punctuation at the end of _etc._ is the same as that at the end of a sentence. It's called a _period._ My understanding is that in British English, the same punctuation would be called a _full stop_ in all its uses, including when it is used at the end of an abbreviation.

As for *Paf le chien*'s point, _etc._ means the same as _and so forth,_ and can be used wherever that expression can be used, including between the subjects of a sentence and the verb of that sentence, as in these examples found on the Internet--all from what would appear to be educated speakers, and the last two from the text of books:

"Our physical forms have much in common, we realize, because bilateral symmetry and the presence of arms, legs, heart, spleen, etc. are genetically wired-in."

"Similarly real content words like _son_, _shun_, _jaws_, _claws_, etc. are used in appropriate positions."

"Thus, _ing-read, ness-ish-fool, apply-re,_ etc. are so ungrammatical as to be essentially unrecognizable, in contrast to ungrammatical permutations among phrasal sisters."


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## doodlebugger

Thanks for your comments mplsray (and for correcting my spelling mistake ).
However, I am still unclear if ... can be used to replace _etc_. in English.
In particular, can you end an English sentence with ... and what does it mean?


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## mplsray

doodlebugger said:


> Thanks for your comments mplsray (and for correcting my spelling mistake ).
> However, I am still unclear if ... can be used to replace _etc_. in English.
> In particular, can you end an English sentence with ... and what does it mean?


 
I interpret the article "Ellipsis Points" in the _University of Minnesota Style Manual_ as saying that if you omit some words from the end of a long sentence while what remains is still grammatical, you end the altered sentence with .... or ...? or ...!, depending on what is appropriate to the part of the sentence which is left behind. It then says, "When what remains is not grammatically complete, leave out the period." I take this to mean that ... can indeed end a sentence, but the only sort of example I can think of is when a person stops a sentence in mid-speech, as when he intends to say _I can't believe he said that._ but then stops in the middle, either because he changes his mind about the appropriateness of what he was about to say or he is overcome by emotion and can't finish the sentence:_ I can't believe he..._


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## Paf le chien

Paf le chien said:


> etc. alway ends the sentence (it is like a fullstop)



My bad: it is not true. It simply ends a list of things.But it is, by itself a punctuation.


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## doodlebugger

Mplsray, shall I understand then that ... never means _etc_. in English?


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## mplsray

doodlebugger said:


> Mplsray, shall I understand then that ... never means _etc_. in English?


 
That is correct. Just in case there might be a use of the ellipsis that was unknown to me, I looked up _ellipsis_ in _Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged._ The definition for the name of the punctuation made no reference to any use other than omission. That dictionary didn't have an entry for _ellipsis points,_ but it did have one for _suspension periods,_ with _suspension points_ given as an alternate form under that entry.


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## mplsray

Paf le chien said:


> My bad: it is not true. It simply ends a list of things.But it is, by itself a punctuation.


 
I don't understand your post. You appear to be saying that the abbreviation _etc._ (short for _et cetera_) is a punctuation mark. I can't see what other meaning you might have in mind for "a punctuation." (An indefinite article combined with the noun _punctuation_ makes sense only in such contexts as _He has *a punctuation* which is rather eccentric. _and even then the writer would be more likely to write _*His punctuation* is rather eccentric._


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## Paf le chien

mplsray said:


> [...]


I was meaning "_etc._", sometimes acts by itself like a "punctuation _mark_". (Sorry for my bad English_ _). 

"Dans la mer, on trouve des poissons, des dauphins, des baleines, _etc._ De plus [...]" : here "_etc._" it acts like a fullstop.


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## tilt

Paf le chien said:


> I was meaning "_etc._", sometimes acts by itself like a "punctuation _mark_". (Sorry for my bad English_ _).
> 
> "Dans la mer, on trouve des poissons, des dauphins, des baleines, _etc._ De plus [...]" : here "_etc._" it acts like a fullstop.


In fact, _etc. _doesn't replace the full stop. But because there is already the abbreviation dot, the full stop is is dropped. Any abbreviation ending a sentence would have the same effect.


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## Paf le chien

tilt said:


> In fact, _etc. _doesn't replace the full stop. But because there is already the abbreviation dot, the full stop is is dropped. Any abbreviation ending a sentence would have the same effect.



Yes, exactly. And, if I remember well my typographic rules, you cannot use two following single punctuation mark ('.' or ','), too, even if they are grammatical (because they have no space before):

"Les mammifères marins, dauphins, baleines, pinguoins, etc. qui n'ont d'autres ressources que celles de l'océan (...)" 

but not:

"Les mammifères marins, dauphins, baleines, pinguoins, etc_*.,*_ qui n'ont d'autres ressources que celles de l'océan (...)" 

but:

"
— Les mammifères marins, dauphins, baleines, pinguoins, etc*. ; 
*— (...)
"


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## FehFeh

Hello, I was wondering whether you could use the latin 'et cetera' in French. Would this be acceptible? Thanks.


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## Donaldos

Perfectly acceptable...


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## FehFeh

Thankyou, that was a quick reply! Appreciated


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