# purse-mouthed



## Curandera

Hi WF,

I have trouble finding the equivalent translation in italian. 

"She bore some resemblance to Papa, but was *purse-mouthed* where he was hearty".

_Lei assomigliava in qualche modo a suo padre ma la sua bocca era *piccola/rotonda e rugosa*? mentre lui l'aveva a forma di cuore/a cuoricino_.

Si dice _di bocca rotonda? Esiste una parola sola in italiano che possa descriverla?_

Ho trovato:

To purse one's lips = to pooch/gather or contract one's lips into wrinkles or into a rounded shape. (as about to kiss)

Thank you.


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## rrose17

I think the more common term is tight-lipped meaning she was reticent. 
Si puo' dire reticente?


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## Curandera

I thought we were dealing with their facial features... purse-mouthed vs hearty. (heart-shaped mouth)
So you believe it is referring to their personalities instead? I think I have messed it up then.
If so, *reticente* would fit.

Thanks. 


Thanks.


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## rrose17

Hearty doesn't mean heart shaped it refers to an warm personality. Like to have a hearty laugh means to have a wide open full laugh. Or a hearty meal is one that is big and warm and fills you up.


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## IviItaly

Hi!
"_Reticente_" could be said, but not in order to indicate the form of mouth and lips.
_To purse one's lips_ in Italian means "arricciare/increspare le labbra", so maybe this mouth is a little one, but a bit prominent. What do you think?
_"Reticente"_ is used to indicate a person that refuse to speak as action, not as physical characteristic..


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## Curandera

Then it goes: _'She was more like her brother, they were both tall, imposing figures, whereas Papa was short, barrel-chested and lame'..._

That's confusing, isn't it?


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## Einstein

Certainly _hearty_ describes the character, not the mouth.
_Purse-mouthed_ describes her mouth, but also also describes her character. As *rrose* says, also _tight-lipped_; it's the attitude of a person who looks at others with disapproval and doesn't laugh easily, in other words the opposite of _hearty_.


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## rrose17

Curandera said:


> Then it goes: _'She was more like her brother, they were both tall, imposing figures, whereas Papa was short, barrel-chested and lame'..._
> 
> That's confusing, isn't it?


A little, maybe. It's using the purse mouthed description which is in fact physical but is more often used to describe someone's character. So when you're reading it it makes sense to play between the two. But hearty is not a physical description, in that it doesn't refer to the shape of a heart.


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## Curandera

I get it. That really helps. Thank you.

So I could say:_ 'Lei non sorrideva mai/era piuttosto restia a sorridere, rispetto al padre che invece era molto più affabile/aperto...'_
o
_'ma le sue labbra non accennavano mai un sorriso rispetto al padre che invece era sempre molto affabile'. ?_


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## IviItaly

These two sentences express the contrast and the difference between the man and the woman. If these adjectives refer to both physical and attitudinal features, maybe we need to translate with some other adjectives which indicate both aspects.
I try to propose my idea: _purse-mouthed _= _bocca piccola e diffidente_ ;
_hearty_ = _bocca grande e generosa_
So I'd translate the whole sentence in a kind of metaphorical way: "_..ma la sua bocca era piccola e diffidente, mentre lui l'aveva grande e più generosa.._"
Could it fit?


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## Curandera

Thanks IviItaly, 

I guess the author is describing her mouth to say something about her personality as opposed to his. What do you think about my earlier post? Do you think I could describe her character by hinting at the way she smiles instead?


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## IviItaly

Of course! Your translation is good, but this way you loose the whole metaphor with the shape of mouth.. That's why I tried to maintain the concept of the text.. But it was just my try.. 
Anyway I think that your second translation is perfect..


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## Einstein

IviItaly said:


> Of course! Your translation is good, but this way you lo*o*se the whole metaphor with the shape of mouth.. That's why I tried to maintain the concept of the text.. But it was just my try..
> Anyway I think that your second translation is perfect..


Yes, I agree with Curandera's translation.

Note that there is no real metaphor with the shape of the mouth; the comparison is between their characters, not their mouths. We use _purse-mouthed_ to describe one of these characters, but there is no obligation to mention the other person's mouth.
_Hearty_ doesn't mean _heart-shaped_.


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## Curandera

Grazie infinite a rrose17, IviItaly and Einstein for your precious suggestions!


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## IviItaly

Einstein said:


> Yes, I agree with Curandera's translation.
> 
> Note that there is no real metaphor with the shape of the mouth; the comparison is between their characters, not their mouths. We use _purse-mouthed_ to describe one of these characters, but there is no obligation to mention the other person's mouth.
> _Hearty_ doesn't mean _heart-shaped_.


 
Yes Einstein, you're right!
I think that they are not real metaphors, but they are a kind of "indirect" metaphor which refer to mouth..
In the translation we can also avoid the direct reference and use for example the second translation proposed by Curandera.. 

PS: Thanks for your correction!


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## IviItaly

Curandera said:


> Grazie infinite a rrose17, IviItaly and Einstein for your precious suggestions!


  
 You're welcome!


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## You little ripper!

> "She bore some resemblance to Papa, but was *purse-mouthed* where he was hearty".


The word 'resemblance' in that sentence gives me to believe the author is referring to their looks, not their personalities. According to Dictionary.com:
_Resemblance indicates primarily a likeness in appearance, either a striking one or one which merely serves as a reminder to the beholder.

_Purse-mouthed = image
hearty =  physically vigorous

The following sentence continues to describes physical appearance.



> _'She was more like her brother, they were both tall, imposing figures, whereas Papa was short, barrel-chested and lame' are obviously...... _


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## IviItaly

Charles Costante said:


> The word 'resemblance' in that sentence gives me to believe she is referring to their looks, not their personalities. According to Dictionary.com:
> _Resemblance indicates primarily a likeness in appearance, either a striking one or one which merely serves as a reminder to the beholder._
> 
> Purse-mouthed = image
> hearty = physically vigorous
> 
> The following sentence continues to describes physical appearance.


Maybe this "resemblance" can indicate also the appearance of their face expressions, of their mouths, and therefore of their personalities (with an "indirect metaphor" as we told previously), linking this way the next sentence which refers directly to their physical characteristics.
Physical features could represent some attitudinal or behavioural aspects..


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## Curandera

@Charles: That was my initial dilemma. 

I believe that the author is trying to describe two different people in a very peculiar way almost as if he wanted us to see his characters and let us draw our own conclusions.

So I firmily believe that he's primarly describing their physical appearances whilst adding information about their personalities. 

In this case he says: She looks a bit like him, however she keeps her lips well tight (she's tough, she's reluctant, she never smiles) whereas he's more lively.

Hearty = physically vigorous... how could I relate that to her pursed mouth?


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## You little ripper!

IviItaly said:


> Maybe this "resemblance" can indicate also the appearance of their face expressions, of their mouths, and therefore of their personalities (with an "indirect metaphor" as we told previously), linking this way the next sentence which refers directly to their physical characteristics.
> Physical features could represent some attitudinal or behavioural aspects..


It is possible. I  checked 'purse in 6 dictionaries and four of them made no reference to the personality usually connected to pursed lips, and just described them as _puckered_. I suppose only the author knows what he really meant.


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## You little ripper!

Curandera said:


> So I firmily believe that he's *primarly* describing their physical appearances whilst adding information about their personalities.


Exactly.  The physical features are a reflection of personality anyway, in my opinion. The study of physiognomy is based entirely on that 'fact' (I've put 'fact' in inverted commas only because there are some people who think it's a load of rubbish ).

Do the words  'labbra increspate' describe only the physical characteristics of the lips, or do they convey a hint of personality to the average person?


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## Curandera

@Charles: Labbra increspate/rugose may convey a hint of personality. 

_'Lei aveva le labbra increspate/rugose per essere stata tutta una vita a lavorare nei campi'. _
You are describing the physical characteristic of her lips to say that her life was not so easy. 

On the other hand you may just say: 

'_aveva le labbra increspate per il freddo'_ and in this case you are just describing the particular features of her lips in a particular moment in time.

Does it make sense?


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## You little ripper!

Curandera said:


> @Charles: Labbra increspate/rugose may convey a hint of personality.
> 
> _'Lei aveva le labbra increspate/rugose per essere stata tutta una vita a lavorare nei campi'. _
> You are describing the physical characteristic of her lips to say that her life was not so easy.
> 
> On the other hand you may just say:
> 
> '_aveva le labbra increspate per il freddo'_ and in this case you are just describing the particular features of her lips in a particular moment in time.
> 
> Does it make sense?


Thank you, Curandera. 

In English 'pursed lips' can convey a disapproving personality or a pensive mood; 'lined/wrinkled' generally don't. 'Lined/wrinkled lips' usually mean lips that have seen too much sun or have had an intimate relationship with a cigarette or two .


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## Curandera

If I got it right, 'Pursued lips' do not describe how the lips are: wrinkled or not. You say _pursued lips_ to describe the particular shape of her mouth in a particular posture that conveys a disapproving personality.

You may say her lips were smooth, soft, wrinkled... and here you're just describing her lips. 

So if I were to translate it and not in this context I would say:

_'Le sue labbra erano sempre chiuse in una smorfia di disapprovazione...'_


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## byrne

Curandera said:


> If I got it right, 'Pursued lips' do not describe how the lips are: wrinkled or not. You say _pursued lips_ to describe the particular shape of her mouth in a particular posture that conveys a disapproving personality.
> 
> You may say her lips were smooth, soft, wrinkled... and here you're just describing her lips.
> 
> So if I were to translate it and not in this context I would say:
> 
> _'Le sue labbra erano sempre chiuse in una smorfia di disapprovazione...'_



that's the sense but the smorfia is perenne...
just a try...
aveva una bocca misera /arida /scarno???


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## Curandera

byrne said:


> that's the sense but the smorfia is perenne...
> just a try...
> aveva una bocca misera /arida /scarno???


 
_'Le sue labbra erano *sempre* chiuse in una smorfia di disapprovazione' _or

_'Le sue labbra erano chiuse in una smorfia *perenne* di disapprovazione'_.

Do you agree?


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## byrne

Curandera said:


> _'Le sue labbra erano *sempre* chiuse in una smorfia di disapprovazione' _or
> 
> _'Le sue labbra erano chiuse in una smorfia *perenne* di disapprovazione'_.
> 
> Do you agree?


 
I surely do...

let's see if others agree


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## Beccaccia

Curandera said:


> @Charles: That was my initial dilemma.
> 
> I believe that the author is trying to describe two different people in a very peculiar way almost as if he wanted us to see his characters and let us draw our own conclusions.
> 
> So I firmily believe that he's primarly describing their physical appearances whilst adding information about their personalities.
> 
> In this case he says: She looks a bit like him, however she keeps her lips well tight (she's tough, she's reluctant, she never smiles) whereas he's more lively.
> 
> Hearty = physically vigorous... how could I relate that to her pursed mouth?


a purse is small and has a small tight opening . . . .you might think of the English word . . gaunt. . . in appearance and so.

The Italian :    *a gaunt face* un viso smunto   (hope I spelt it ok.)

And the text could read :     She bore some resemblance to Papa, but she was gaunt was *purse-mouthed* where he was hearty".  

Hope you find it useful


Qua


M


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## You little ripper!

Curandera said:


> If I got it right, 'Pursued lips' do not describe how the lips are: wrinkled or not. You say _pursued lips_ to describe the particular shape of her mouth in a particular posture that conveys a disapproving personality.
> 
> You may say her lips were smooth, soft, wrinkled... and here you're just describing her lips.
> 
> So if I were to translate it and not in this context I would say:
> 
> _'Le sue labbra erano sempre chiuse in una smorfia di disapprovazione...'_


Curandera, I said that 'pursed lips' *can* convey a disapproving personality or a pensive mood, but that's not the principal meaning of the word, which is _puckered lips_ (its physical definition is all that can be found in  most of the dictionaries I checked). The writer has probably deliberately used two expressions ('purse-mouthed' and 'hearty') that can describe both a physical and a personality trait. I still think the physical trait is more dominant because of his use of the word 'resemblance' (_She bore some resemblance to Papa,  was purse-mouthed where he was hearty_), as I mentioned earlier. 

In my opinion it would be best to translate 'purse-mouthed' with a word/expression that describes its physical meaning (puckered) and one that has a secondary meaning describing a personality trait (disapproving /pensive). To translate that with _Le sue labbra erano sempre chiuse in una smorfia di disapprovazione_ would be using only the secondary meaning.


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## Akire72

Spunto su cui riflettere:

schiva/imbronciata vs. bonaccione/gioviale

Secondo me l'autore dice che si assomigliavano, ma mentre lei era schiva, lui era una persona gioviale. 

Secondo il mio modesto parere qui le caratteristiche fisiche facciali non c'entrano affatto. Inoltre ci stiamo soffermando sulle labbra, mentre lui parla di "mouth". Appena ho letto la frase a me è venuta in mente una persona che ha la bocca "abbottonata" come una borsetta, ovvero che non parla molto. Mi sbaglierò...


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## IviItaly

Akire72 said:


> Spunto su cui riflettere:
> 
> schiva/imbronciata vs. bonaccione/gioviale
> 
> Secondo me l'autore dice che si assomigliavano, ma mentre lei era schiva, lui era una persona gioviale.
> 
> Secondo il mio modesto parere qui le caratteristiche fisiche facciali non c'entrano affatto. Inoltre ci stiamo soffermando sulle labbra, mentre lui parla di "mouth". Appena ho letto la frase a me è venuta in mente una persona che ha la bocca "abbottonata" come una borsetta, ovvero che non parla molto. Mi sbaglierò...


I totally agree with you.. E' un testo che mette a confronto le differenze di queste due persone.. Le caratteristiche estetiche della bocca corrispondono al loro carattere, alla loro personalità..
Una bocca abbottonata, restia a parlare, ecc. è evidentemente in contrasto con una bocca sempre sorridente, più gioviale.. E di conseguenza, una persona più seria,schiva e meno affabile è l'opposto di una persona generosa, sorridente..
Secondo me la traduzione richiede un paio di aggettivi per rendere il significato , ma la traduzione di Curandera secondo me andava benissimo: _'ma le sue labbra non accennavano mai un sorriso rispetto al padre che invece era sempre molto affabile' _


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## Akire72

Ehi, che ne pensi di bocca serrata? (guarda qui)

[...] però lei aveva sempre la bocca serrata/le labbra serrate, mentre lui era sorridente/gioviale


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## IviItaly

Si, bella proposta.. 
Direi: "_..ma lei aveva sempre le labbra serrate, mentre lui era sorridente e affabile_". Potrebbe andar bene?


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## Curandera

Beccaccia said:


> a purse is small and has a small tight opening . . . .you might think of the English word . . gaunt. . . in appearance and so.
> 
> The Italian : *a gaunt face* un viso smunto (hope I spelt it ok.)
> Thank you. This helps.
> 
> M


 
The writer has probably deliberately used two expressions ('purse-mouthed' and 'hearty') that can describe both a physical and a personality trait. I still think the physical trait is more dominant because of his use of the word 'resemblance' (_She bore some resemblance to Papa, was purse-mouthed where he was hearty_), as I mentioned earlier. 

To translate that with_*Le sue labbra erano sempre chiuse/abbottonate* in una smorfia di disapprovazione_ would be using only the secondary meaning. [/QUOTE]

In this translation I am actually *describing how the lips* were = sempre chiuse/abbottonate... in una smorfia di disapprovazione = *personality trait.*



Akire72 said:


> Spunto su cui riflettere:
> 
> *schiva/imbronciata vs. bonaccione/gioviale*
> 
> Secondo me l'autore dice che si assomigliavano, ma mentre lei era schiva, lui era una persona gioviale.
> 
> Inoltre ci stiamo soffermando sulle labbra, mentre lui parla di "mouth". Appena ho letto la frase a me è venuta in mente una persona che ha la bocca "abbottonata" come una borsetta, ovvero che non parla molto. Mi sbaglierò...


 
I agree. She was not talkative at all therefore she was tight-lipped vs his lively personality. However if I just said: lei era sempre schiva mentre lui era gioviale I wouldn't describe how her mouth was. 



IviItaly said:


> Una bocca abbottonata, restia a parlare, ecc. è evidentemente in contrasto con una bocca sempre sorridente, più gioviale.. E di conseguenza, una persona più seria,schiva e meno affabile è l'opposto di una persona generosa, sorridente..
> Secondo me la traduzione richiede un paio di aggettivi per rendere il significato , ma la traduzione di Curandera secondo me andava benissimo:
> 
> _'ma *le sue labbra* *non accennavano mai un sorriso* (subsense = erano sempre chiuse) rispetto al padre che invece era sempre molto affabile' _


 
That was my best shot. 
The difficult part was to link her physical description to his hearty personality. A lively, open, talkative person is more incline to smile and/or laugh. Hence the idea of the smile. My interpretation, of course.

But I could also say:

_'Lei assomigliava in qualche modo a suo padre, ma le sue labbra erano sempre serrate/abbottonate come a dimostrare una perenne diffidenza mentre lui era molto aperto e gioviale.' _

Thank you all!


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## Curandera

Akire72 said:


> Ehi, che ne pensi di bocca serrata? (guarda qui)
> 
> [...] però lei aveva sempre la bocca serrata/le labbra serrate, mentre lui era sorridente/gioviale


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## IviItaly

Great!! I think in fact that the Italian translation requires a wider number of words in order to grasp better the original meaning..


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## You little ripper!

Akire72 said:


> Inoltre ci stiamo soffermando sulle labbra, mentre lui parla di "mouth".


Akire, when a mouth is pursed it is closed so all you can see are the lips, so I don't think there's any difference in meaning between a 'pursed mouth' and 'pursed lips'. If the mouth was open then it would be a completely different story.


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## Akire72

Charles Costante said:


> Akire, when a mouth is pursed it is closed so all you can see are the lips, so I don't think there's any difference in meaning between a 'pursed mouth' and 'pursed lips'. If the mouth was open then it would be a completely different story.


 
In fact, I translated it _bocca serrata_ or _labbra serrate_; the latter is slightly more elegant but they mean the same thing: silent and austere.


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## IviItaly

Akire72 said:


> In fact, I translated it _bocca serrata_ or _labbra serrate_; the latter is slightly more elegant but they mean the same thing: silent and austere.


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## You little ripper!

> In this translation I am actually *describing how the lips* were = sempre chiuse/abbottonate... in una smorfia di disapprovazione = *personality trait.*





> I agree. She was not talkative at all therefore she was tight-lipped vs his lively personality. However if I just said: lei era sempre schiva mentre lui era gioviale I wouldn't describe how her mouth was.





> But I could also say:
> 
> _'Lei assomigliava in qualche modo a suo padre, ma le sue labbra erano sempre serrate/abbottonate come a dimostrare una perenne diffidenza mentre lui era molto aperto e gioviale.' _


Curandera, the sentence is ambiguous and it is possible that the author just meant to convey the personality traits of 'purse-mouthed' and 'hearty' (which is what most seem to agree on). Since it's impossible to translate the meanings of both personality and physical traits into Italian it might be best to just go with the *personality trait only, *otherwise it might be a bit confusing. 

 purse-mouthed = disapproving, uptight 

 hearty = warm, friendly, enthusiastic


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## Curandera

@Charles: This makes sense!


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