# '18'



## Welsh_Sion

The number written in decimal format as *'18'* (i.e. one more than '17'; one less than '19') seems to me to be a very curious beast.

In *Cymraeg/Welsh* there is:

*un deg wyth* (one ten eight)
*deunaw* (two(x)nine)
*tri ar bymtheg* *(three on fiveten)

***Rarest form of the numeral, masc. and generic. For fem., read, *tair ar bymtheg*.

Then in *English* there is:

*eighteen* (eight(+)ten)

*German*:

*achtzehn* (eight(+)ten)**

**So, like English.

*Spanish*:

*dieciocho *(ten(+)eight)

*French*:

*dix-huit* (ten (+) eight)**

**So, like Spanish, but for the hyphen.

*Breton*:

*triwec'h* (three(x)six)

Any other language variants? 17 + 1 or 19 -1 or 9 x 2, perhaps? Others?


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## Dymn

I think it would be neat to include all numerals from 11 to 19.

Latin had 1+10 (_undecim_), 2+10 (_duodecim_), etc., except for 18 and 19 which were 20-2 (_duodeviginti_), 20-1 (_undeviginti_); or less commonly 8+10 (_octodecim_), 9+10 (_novemdecim_).

Most Romance languages use both unit+10 and then 10+unit, with 16 belonging to the former in Catalan, French, Italian (_setze, seize, sedici_), and to the latter in Portuguese, Spanish (_dezasseis, dieciséis_).


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## Welsh_Sion

Happy to go along with your idea, @Dymn. Surprised that hasn't been done before though ... (I'll do the Welsh 'properly' later ...)



Reminds me - I read somewhere that only Cymraeg in the I-E family uses a base '15' (fiveten - NOT a typo) in certain circumstances.


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## apmoy70

Nothing fancy in Greek I'm afraid:

-Koine/Byzantine/Modern Greek: *«Δεκαοκτώ»* [dεka.oˈktɔː] (Koine), [ðeka.ɔˈktɔ] (Byzantine), [ðe̞ka.o̞ˈkto̞] (MoGr) or (vernacular) [ðe̞ka.o̞ˈxto̞] (with dissimilation) = *«δέκα»* + *«ὀκτώ»* (ten-eight).
-Classical Greek: *«ὀκτωκαίδεκα»* [oktɔːkaí̯deka] = *«ὀκτώ»* + *«καί»* + *«δέκα»* (eight-plus-ten).


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## raamez

In Arabic it is very straightforward 18 is simply 8+10 _thamaaniyatu-'ashar_ ثمانية عشر. In the vernacular it is _tminta'ish_ طمنطعش


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## Circunflejo

Basque hamazortzi (hama=10 and zortzi=8)



Welsh_Sion said:


> Any other language variants?


In Estonian and Finnish, literally, is eight of the second (ten). I guess something similar happens in Cherokee.
Greenlandic use something like 15 plus 3 but instead of 15, another term is used as a base (i.e.: they call it something different than what they use for 15 but the practical meaning for bigger numbers would be 15 even though that's not the given meaning). In Yupik, 15+3.
In Khmer is 10, 5, 3. And in Wolof, 10 and 5, 3.


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## S.V.

Circunflejo said:


> 15 plus 3


And some regions in America might have both, as an original coexists with a_ dieciocho _loan, in bilingual speakers. 

ex. 15 + 3 in Mixtec.


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## Terio

Welsh_Sion said:


> The number written in decimal format as *'18'* (i.e. one more than '17'; one less than '19') seems to me to be a very curious beast.
> 
> In *Cymraeg/Welsh* there is:
> 
> *un deg wyth* (one ten eight)
> *deunaw* (two(x)nine)
> *tri ar bymtheg* *(three on fiveten)
> 
> ***Rarest form of the numeral, masc. and generic. For fem., read, *tair ar bymtheg*.
> 
> 
> 
> *Spanish*:
> 
> *dieciocho *(ten(+)eight)
> 
> *French*:
> 
> *dix-huit* (ten (+) eight)**
> 
> **So, like Spanish, but for the hyphen.


Spanish : dieciocho is, written in one word : diez y ocho (ten and eight), with the logical spelling change (z > c ; y > i)

Portugese : dezoito (teneight)

French : dix-huit (ten-eitght). (If it were like Spanish, it would be : dix* et *huit )


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## Awwal12

Nothing fancy in Russian either. Восемнадцать (vosemnádtsat'), an archaic reduced form of восемь на десять (vósem' na désyat'), lit. "eight onto ten". All the numerals from 11 to 19 are built by the same model.


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## Kaoss

Catalan: Divuit = ten+eight (vuit -> eight, deu is ten, but shortens to 'di').


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## ahvalj

Awwal12 said:


> Восемнадцать (vosemnádtsat'), an archaic reduced form of восемь на десять (vósem' na désyat'), lit. "eight onto ten".


Originally _осмь на десѧте~десѧти / osmь na desäte~desäti_ — that is, a locative, “where?” (“eight on ten”). The reduction of the final vowel and thus the merger with the accusative is attested since around the 13th century both in Kiev and Novgorod.


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## Olaszinhok

Kaoss said:


> Catalan: Divuit = ten+eight (vuit -> eight, deu is ten, but shortens to 'di').


Something similar happens in Italian _diciotto_ = ten + eight _(dieci +otto_) but dieci shortens to dic(i). The same for _diciassette_ (seventeen) and_ diciannove_ (nineteen): _dieci_ turns into _dicia_ and the initial consonants of _sette_ and_ nove_ double.


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## apmoy70

ahvalj said:


> Originally _осмь на десѧте~десѧти / osmь na desäte~desäti_ — that is, a locative, “where?” (“eight on ten”). The reduction of the final vowel and thus the merger with the accusative is attested since around the 13th century both in Kiev and Novgorod.


Long time no see, always enjoy your contributions


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## Kaoss

Kaoss said:


> Catalan: Divuit = ten+eight (vuit -> eight, deu is ten, but shortens to 'di').


By the way, only 17 (disset), 18 (divuit) and 19 (dinou) follow this logic. From 11 to 16 have their own name: onze, dotze, tretze, catorze, quinze, setze. You may notice the roots of 1 to 6 in the name. From 20 onward keep the same logic (twenty+one etc.)


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## Penyafort

I had never stopped to think about that diphthongization. The fact that it does means that in Spanish it is really a compound, while neighbouring Aragonese, which also diphthongizes _diez_, does reduction.

Spanish: dieciocho (diez y ocho), _diecisiete, diecinueve_​Aragonese: deziueito, _dezisiete, dezinueu_​


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## merquiades

Dymn said:


> I think it would be neat to include all numerals from 11 to 19.
> 
> Latin had 1+10 (_undecim_), 2+10 (_duodecim_), etc., except for 18 and 19 which were 20-2 (_duodeviginti_), 20-1 (_undeviginti_); or less commonly 8+10 (_octodecim_), 9+10 (_novemdecim_).
> 
> Most Romance languages use both unit+10 and then 10+unit, with 16 belonging to the former in Catalan, French, Italian (_setze, seize, sedici_), and to the latter in Portuguese, Spanish (_dezasseis, dieciséis_).


I've often wondered both why Spanish and Portuguese lack a proper word for 16 like *seice, *seize paralleling the other Romance language and why there could be simple words between 11-16 in Italian, French, Catalan but then no word for 17, 18, 19.  Perplexing that the numbers don't fit together smoothly.
Well French lacks 70, 80, 90 (also multiples of 7, 8, 9) but that's certainly another story.

English also is not smooth.  There are set words for 10,11,12 but then 13 onwards it's a simple number plus teen.


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## Penyafort

merquiades said:


> I've often wondered both why Spanish and Portuguese lack a proper word for 16 like *seice, *seize paralleling the other Romance language and why there could be simple words between 11-16 in Italian, French, Catalan but then no word for 17, 18, 19.  Perplexing that the numbers don't fit together smoothly.


_Seze _existed in Old Spanish.

The reason for 18 and 19 could be simple: Latin used "two-from-twenty" and "one-from-twenty" instead of "eight-ten" and "nine-ten". But I also wonder why the same happened with 17, when it was _septemdecim_.

The equivalents might have been: *_setenze _(Catalan), *_septenze _(French), *_settendici _(Italian).


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## merquiades

Penyafort said:


> _Seze _existed in Old Spanish.
> 
> The reason for 18 and 19 could be simple: Latin used "two-from-twenty" and "one-from-twenty" instead of "eight-ten" and "nine-ten". But I also wonder why the same happened with 17, when it was _septemdecim_.
> 
> The equivalents might have been: *_setenze _(Catalan), *_septenze _(French), *_settendici _(Italian).


Good point about 18 and 19 from Latin, there was no simple term to develop

I guess Seze or even *Sez would be too short to be viable.  But then why not invent *_diecicinco_ too?

Nothing is wrong with *Setenze or *Settendici though.

Romanian appears to have a regular, straightforward way of forming numbers from 11-19


> Unlike all other Romance Languages, Romanian has a consistent way of naming the numbers from 11 to 19. These are obtained by joining three elements: the units, the word _spre_ (derived from Latin _super_ "over"), and the word for "ten". For example, _fifteen_ is _cincisprezece_ _cinci + spre + zece_, which literally means "five over ten". From Wikipedia.


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## Awwal12

merquiades said:


> Romanian appears to have a regular, straightforward way of forming numbers from 11-19


I wonder if it actually calques the Slavic constructions.


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## Welsh_Sion

Romanian appears to have a regular, straightforward way of forming numbers from 11-19


> Unlike all other Romance Languages, Romanian has a consistent way of naming the numbers from 11 to 19. These are obtained by joining three elements: the units, the word _spre_ (derived from Latin _super_ "over"), and the word for "ten". For example, _fifteen_ is _cincisprezece_ _cinci + spre + zece_, which literally means "five over ten". From Wikipedia.


___________

Just like 'modern' 10-based Welsh, then:

10 - deg (ten)

11 - un deg un (one ten one)
12 - un deg dau (one ten two)
13 - un deg tri (one ten three)
14 - un deg pedwar (one ten four)
15 - un deg pump (one ten five)
16 - un deg chwech (one ten six)
17 - un deg saith (one ten seven)
18 - un deg wyth (one ten eight)
19 - un deg naw (one ten nine)

20 - dau ddeg (two ten)


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## merquiades

Awwal12 said:


> I wonder if it actually calques the Slavic constructions.


Yes.  It seems so.  _Пятнáдцать_ (like _cincisprezece_) is quite literally "Five over ten", right?  _дéсять_ is kind of contracted though.

Such calques would mean that perhaps Slavic-speaking peoples were romanized in the Romania/Moldova area.  Latin _quinque super decem _is also contracted and palatalized to become cincispezece.


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## Awwal12

merquiades said:


> _Пятнáдцать_ (like _cincisprezece_) is quite literally "Five over ten", right?


"On", "on the top of", "at the surface of", but the idea is quite close anyway.


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## Awwal12

merquiades said:


> Such calques would mean that perhaps Slavic-speaking peoples were romanized in the Romania/Moldova area.


That's quite likely, though the fact that Church Slavonic was a kind of official language of the Vlach principalities for a long while also might have played a role.


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## fdb

raamez said:


> In Arabic it is very straightforward 18 is simply 8+10 _thamaaniyatu-'ashar_ ثمانية عشر.


_thamaaniyata-'ashar (indeclinable)._


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## Circunflejo

Penyafort said:


> But I also wonder why the same happened with 17, when it was _septemdecim_.


It seems that in Latin it also existed decem et septem and it was a usual way to say it. Maybe that explains it.


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## Demiurg

Welsh_Sion said:


> Then in *English* there is:
> 
> *eighteen* (eight(+)ten)
> 
> *German*:
> 
> *achtzehn* (eight(+)ten)**
> 
> **So, like English.



But in German we also have achtundzwanzig (eight and twenty), achtunddreißig (eight and thirty) and so on while English switches from eighteen (eight+ten) to twenty-eight (twenty+eight), thirty-eight (thirty+eight) ...


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## Welsh_Sion

Fair enough, @Demiurg. But I was only interested in '18'!


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## se16teddy

Irish numerals are unusual in that the element counting the *tens* comes not just after the other numerals, but after the noun (usually - I think that alternative ways may exist to do it).
13 cats - trí chat déag
18 cats - ocht gcat déag
88 cats - ocht gcat is ochtó
(Cardinal numbers 1-6 “lenite” the following _cat_ to _chat, _pronounced with the_ ch _of_ loch_; cardinal numbers 7-10 “eclipse” the following _cat_ to _gcat_, pronounced _gat_.)


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## Welsh_Sion

These are common traits to the Celtic languages, @se16teddy - but I'm sure you knew that. Also to bear in mind here is that the noun is in the singular, i.e. '13/18/88 cat'. It's impossible for a Celt to say '13 cats' - either it's '13 cat' or '13 of cats' - never '13 cats'.

Cymraeg/Welsh

13 cats - tair cath ar ddeg (three cat on ten) / un deg tair cath (one ten three cat) / un deg tair o gathod (one ten of cats)
18 cats - tair cath ar bymtheg (three cat on five-ten) / deunaw cath (two-nine cat) / un deg wyth cath (one ten eight cat) / yn deg wyth o gathod (one ten of cats)
88 cats - wyth a phedwar ugain cath (eight and four twenty cat) / wyth deg wyth cath (eight ten eight cat) / wyth deg wyth o gathod (eight ten eight of cats).

Obviously, there are (as in Irish) mutation rules in play, too. (Something extra special with the words for 'year(s)', too - again as in Irish).


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## se16teddy

Welsh_Sion said:


> but I'm sure you knew that


Sadly, your confidence is misplaced!


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## JNavBar

In Nahuatl they use 15 (caxtōlli) + 3 (ēyi) for 18 (caxtōlli omēyi). But for 8 (chicuēyi), they use a similar formula, 5 (chiuc-) + 3 (ēyi). The number 5 itself is mācuīlli, which is an irregular term derived from hand and grasp.

10 (mahtlactli) is compound by hand + torso.

20 (cem pōhualli) means "one count". From here you just form the number adding 20 + (one of the previous numbers) until 40.
 38 (cempōhualli oncaxtōlli omēyi)

40 (ōm pōhualli) would be "two counts" and from here you know the drill.

So 80 (nāuh pōhualli) and 90 (nāuh pōhualli om mahtlactli) would be constructed similar to French.


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