# Boku/Watashi



## TimeHP

Hi all.
I know that men use Boku and women use Watashi to say 'I' in Japanese.
I've read that Watashi could be used by men as well. In this case would it be a bit ambiguous? 
Many thanks

Ciao


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## Cereth

Hello!
Well "watashi" means "I" and it can be used by men and women, such word is formal and polite.
As you said "boku" is only used for men and it is less formal but not as informal as "ore" , Japanese men say "ore" only with their male friends, when talking with familiy or people with whom "formal speech" is not required.

Women can also speak informal by saying "atashi" but this sound childlish 

I´ve heard that men in their 30´s and above don´t say "boku" often, but I don´t know if this is true...When I met my friends they used to say "watashi" but now that we have become closer friends they always say "ore", I think I have never heard they say "boku" (my friends age range goes from 26 to 34)..


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## nicole0087

watashi can be widely used by men and women.But women can only use watashi in the formal situation, while men can use not only washishi, boku, but also ore, and so on. 
by the way, nowadays women usually use boku in the situation when you talk in an unformal situation with closet friends.

I hope this would be useful


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## Tekeli-li! Tekeli-li!

I always thought "boku" was rather boyish, whereas "ore" was more "manly". Can someone elaborate?

On that note, allow me to expand the discussion, since Japanese is such a rich language in this area. What are the rules and connotations regarding the pronouns "ware", "waga", and "wagahai"?


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## TimeHP

Some years ago the son of a Japanese friend of mine (the mother of the boy is Japanese but the father is Italian) went to visit his Japanese relatives in Kyoto. He was a child and he didn't know a lot of words. He told me that he always used to refer to himself using 'watashi', because he had listened his mother saying 'watashi'. It seems that his cousins made fun of him and told him that he had to use 'boku'...
So now I don't understand why. I've read that 'watashi' is formal. Maybe it's a bit funny if a child uses a formal language...
The idea of many words for saying 'I' in different situations is fascinating. 
Thank you.


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## Cereth

I think that maybe his cousins laughed because he sounded too formal, and among kids -particularly if they are relatives- saying watashi sounds very solemn, but I don´t think it sounds girlie..
I think that there is also the word "Watakushi" but this is the top of formal speech and it can be said only by an Emperor or something like that 

Anyway I´m just guessing, natives have the final word


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## Anatoli

Watakushi is very formal but not used by emperors but by mortals in a formal situations - a job interview, for example.

私は ...と申します。 Watakushi-wa ... to mōshimas. My name is ... (very formal). As apposed to simply - "namae-wa ... desu/da" or even simply "... des/da", eg. Yamada des - I am Yamada. "da" is a very plain form of "desu", should be used with friends, kids or subordinates.


To add on the topic of pesonal pronouns for "I", here's another one
"washi" - 儂 [わし] I; me (used by elderly).

It's quite a common word used by older people in fairy-tales, movies, anime's. It is usually written with hiragana but there is a character for it as above.


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## TimeHP

> 私は ...と申します。 Watakushi-wa ... to mōshimas. My name is ... (very formal). As apposed to simply - "namae-wa ... desu/da" or even simply "... des/da", eg. Yamada des - I am Yamada. "da" is a very plain form of "desu", should be used with friends, kids or subordinates.
> 
> To add on the topic of pesonal pronouns for "I", here's another one
> "washi" - 儂 [わし] I; me (used by elderly).
> It's quite a common word used by older people in fairy-tales, movies, anime's. It is usually written with hiragana but there is a character for it as above.


 
All this is very, very interesting.  
My grammar book gives only a brief explanation about personal pronouns and the only word for 'I' seems to be  'Watashi'. It doesn't mention 'boku', 'ore' or 'watakushi-wa'.

By chance could someone suggest me any books or links about this aspect of the Japanese language?  
Thank you so much.


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## Anatoli

> It doesn't mention 'boku', 'ore' or 'watakushi-*wa*'.


-wa is only a particle, not part of the word.

Pronouns are not used as much in Japanese as in English, so I wouldn't concentrate on them, since the different forms show the style of the language. Pronouns in English are the most common words but not in Japanese, even there is a number of various pronouns, depnding on style, relationship, attitude, etc. "watashi" is the most useful and neutrally polite word for "I". Any textbook that talks about styles (polite, humble, plain) introduces some forms of alternative pronouns, e.g. "Colloquial Japanese" or "Japanese for Everyone".


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## gaer

TimeHP said:


> All this is very, very interesting.
> My grammar book gives only a brief explanation about personal pronouns and the only word for 'I' seems to be 'Watashi'. It doesn't mention 'boku', 'ore' or 'watakushi-wa'.
> 
> By chance could someone suggest me any books or links about this aspect of the Japanese language?
> Thank you so much.


It bothers me that the majority of opinions expressed here are from people who are not Japanese!

I have always used "watashi", and no one has ever told me that it would sound strange or wrong.

When I explain to people what is best to use in English, I always suggest that they use standard English and avoid slang or informal usage until they master English. (I suggest that they learn to understand informal usage and slange, because without it someone is unable to understand conversations.)

Gaer


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## TimeHP

> Pronouns are not used as much in Japanese as in English, so I wouldn't concentrate on them, since the different forms show the style of the language.


 
I can't even imagine studying a language without concentrating on pronouns.  I suppose it depends from the fact that in Italian schools
we study a lot of grammar.
When I study a language I like very much to know the social aspects of it.
I was wondering if there are many ways to translate the other personal pronouns (you, he, she, it, we, they).
What about 'anata'? Only a word for all the situations?



> Any textbook that talks about styles (polite, humble, plain) introduces some forms of alternative pronouns, e.g. "Colloquial Japanese" or "Japanese for Everyone".


 
Ok. I'll look for one of these. Thank you.


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## gaer

TimeHP said:


> gaer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, you must be deleting something when you answer, because if you hit "quote", you automatically see the name of the person you are replying to with a reference number. For instance:
> 
> *quote=TimeHP;1529489*
> 
> Aaah! Ok!
> I never used this system of quoting. I only used the yellow icon 'quote'. Now I understand what you mean...
> Ciao
> 
> 
> 
> You wiped out the end quote: */quote*
> 
> That's what makes the box, like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gaer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How to make a box
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Do you see? This is off-topic, but perhaps Flaminiuus will alow this to stay here long enough for you to see how it works.
> 
> Now perhaps we can now continue to talk about boku/watashi and leave a trail that other people can follow.
> I am really interested in how people in Japan use 僕、私 when speaking!
> 
> Gaer
Click to expand...


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## TimeHP

I've read something about_ jibun_ as well.
I don't know a lot, only that _jibun_ is referring to private self.
Is it still used or is it old fashioned?

Many thanks.


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## etudian

As Hiro Sasaki san said in another thread, sometimes it would take us natives a lot of pages to answer a apparently very simple question. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to get into all the details now. But I can assure you that watashi is the most appropriate version of "I" for both men and women in any situation unless and until you speak Japanese very fluently.

Please take a look at the following articles in the English Wikipedia site to see some of the complexities involved.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_pronouns

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences_in_spoken_Japanese


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## Flaminius

gaer said:


> I have always used "watashi", and no one has ever told me that it would sound strange or wrong.


 
No one has ever told you so because your referring to yourself as _watashi_ does not sound strange *at all*.

_Watashi_ indeed is an odd reference in the context TimeHP has contributed (a kid speaking to another kid).  But I don't think you are likely to find yourself in this context.   ^. .^


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## Anatoli

TimeHP said:


> What about 'anata'? Only a word for all the situations?


This topic of pronouns doesn't excite me any more (you can find this if you learn a little bit through textbooks) but I'll give a brief hint:
Google for a few romanisations of the English "you", you'll find a lot of hits and links to such discussions:

anata anta omae kimi kisama


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## Flaminius

TimeHP said:


> I've read something about_ jibun_ as well.
> I don't know a lot, only that _jibun_ is referring to private self.
> Is it still used or is it old fashioned?
> 
> Many thanks.



I am not entirely sure what you mean by "private self" but _jibun _自分 used as a reference for the first person singular sounds very very militaristic.  I suspect it was a military jargon until the war.

This does not mean, however, 自分 has completely fallen out of use.  It is now a reflexive pronoun that refers to a subject noun which has been said before it.

E.g., メアリーは自分の部屋を掃除した。
Mary-wa jibun-no heya-o sōji shita.
Mary-TOPIC self-GEN. room-ACC. clean Past
Mary cleaned *her *room.


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## Flaminius

TimeHP said:


> What about 'anata'? Only a word for all the situations?


Using any word that denotes the second person singular can be a marked speech.  It sometimes connotes condescension and sometimes female speech.  The general way for referring to someone that is called "you" in English is to use the referent's name, title/position or both.


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## cheshire

Flaminius said:


> I am not entirely sure what you mean by "private self" but _jibun _自分 used as a reference for the first person singular sounds *very very militaristic*. *I suspect it was a military jargon until the war.*
> 
> This does not mean, however, 自分 has completely fallen out of use. It is now a reflexive pronoun that refers to a subject noun which has been said before it.
> 
> E.g., メアリーは自分の部屋を掃除した。
> Mary-wa jibun-no heya-o sōji shita.
> Mary-TOPIC self-GEN. room-ACC. clean Past
> Mary cleaned *her *room.


No, I think TimeHP is referring to 自分　often used as pronoun for "I" in the informal speech.

自分は（＝僕は、私は）そうは考えない。
自分は（＝僕は、私は）行きたくない。

Strangely, this 自分 can mean "you" in the Kansai （関西） district,

自分は(=君は、あなたは）どう考える？
自分は（＝君は、あなたは））どうなんだよ？


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## cheshire

TimeHP said:


> Some years ago the son of a Japanese friend of mine (the mother of the boy is Japanese but the father is Italian) went to visit his Japanese relatives in Kyoto. He was a child and he didn't know a lot of words. He told me that he always used to refer to himself using 'watashi', because he had listened his mother saying 'watashi'. It seems that his cousins made fun of him and told him that he had to use 'boku'...
> So now I don't understand why. I've read that 'watashi' is formal. Maybe *it's a bit funny if a child uses a formal language*...
> The idea of many words for saying 'I' in different situations is fascinating.
> Thank you.


It can be the case in some very limited situations, but most of the time (95%) other children will laugh at him because it sounds *very sissy*. It's just like an Italian* boy *saying "sono andat*a *a Torino."


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## maree

Sorry for bumping, but there is still one thing I don't quite understand. From what I've learned I thought that

-Watashi: normal/formal
-Boku: Polite/humble
-Ore: Confident

I thought that the reason why women don't use ore is because the Japanese culture doesn't open for that kind of women (no offence). The thing with boku I don't think I've heard anything about, but I'm pretty sure I've heard women say boku in songs and perhaps in anime too. Is this yet a case of the japanese "the language in music and anime isn't necessarily the same as in reality"?


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## youtin

^ I've heard the use of "boku" (and "ore"! too) by WOMEN is more of fad that _some_ young people are following these days. Songs and anime are an exception, because they probably want to add something 'different' or follow the fad.

However, it's not really proper Japanese and except with very close friends, it's not advisable to use in school, at work, etc. I think it's generally frowned upon.


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## cheshire

maree said:


> Sorry for bumping, but there is still one thing I don't quite understand. From what I've learned I thought that
> 
> -Watashi: normal/formal
> -Boku: Polite/humble
> -Ore: Confident
> 
> 
> I thought that the reason why women don't use ore is because the Japanese culture doesn't open for that kind of women (no offence). The thing with boku I don't think I've heard anything about, but I'm pretty sure I've heard women say boku in songs and perhaps in anime too. Is this yet a case of the japanese "the language in music and anime isn't necessarily the same as in reality"?


-Watashi: normal/formal (but normal for women in any occasion)​
-Boku: Polite/humble (etymologically it used to be humble [you'll understand it upon searching for the meaning of 僕 in Kanji dictionaries.] but not any more, though it's more humble than "washi" or "ore" all the same.) ​
-Ore: Confident





> I thought that the reason why women don't use ore is because the Japanese culture doesn't open for that kind of women (no offence).


Does it sound normal for an Italian boy to say "Sono andata a Milano." or an American boy to say "Hi, I'm Isabella."?​ 


youtin said:


> ^ I've heard the use of "boku" (and "ore"! too) by WOMEN is *more of fad that some young people are following these days.* Songs and anime are an exception, because they probably want to add something 'different' or follow the fad.
> 
> However, it's not really proper Japanese and except with very close friends, it's not advisable to use in school, at work, etc. I think it's generally frowned upon.


Quite true, it's just another passing trend, though it's also worth mentioning that we've been seeing a greater degree of "unisexization" of our cultures, from less and less wearing of skirts by women to sharing the same kinds of tastes by both sexes.


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## Captain Haddock

'Boku' isn't particularly polite or humble, although it started that way and means "manservant". Today I think it's casual, familiar, and perhaps childish if used inappropriately. 'Ore' is gruff and masculine.

Boku can also be used to refer to a small boy instead of oneself. Remember, these are nouns with actual meanings, not pronouns.

I avoid these words myself when I can, but if I have to, I use watashi, boku, or my own name depending on who I'm with.

Edit: I've never heard a woman use 'boku' or 'ore' myself, and I live in Japan. From boku's original meaning, it would be an odd way for a girl to refer to herself. I think there's the odd female comedian who will talk like a man to sound outlandish sometimes.


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