# Where did English "kasar" for "basil" come from?



## Delvo

A bunch of websites on herbs and gardening and such in English use "kasar" for basil, or at least either of two particular types of it: _Ocimum basilicum_ ("sweet basil" or "Thai basil") and a hybrid called "African blue basil". But I don't know why.

It has no other English meaning. Nothing like it shows up in any of the available languages at Google Translate. At a website that specializes in various languages' plant names, the page for the genus _Ocimum_ includes only two that would sound even a little bit similar: Kannada "kasturi" (or "kusturi") and Khmer "chi sà". But I have reasons to doubt that they are related to Englishish "kasar" (especially the Khmer one) or even to each other. And there's no sign of any relatives of either of them in any other language (unlike most other plant names, including those on the same web page, which tend to be in groups in which multiple languages' names for the same plants are pretty similar).

Can anybody here confirm or refute any connection from either of these to the "kasar" on English botanical pages, or provide an alternative origin for it?


----------



## rushalaim

Wikipedia says "*Gaius Julius Caesar*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Caesar#cite_note-2* (Classical Latin: [ˈɡaː.i.ʊs ˈjuː.li.ʊs ˈkae̯.sar]; July 100 BC [1] – 15 March 44 BC)[2] was a Roman statesman"...
"Basil" in Greek means a "king"?*


----------



## bearded

rushalaim: > Basil in Greek means king? <
The Ancient Greek word for king was _basileus_. Hence various derivations of names meaning 'royal' , e.g.  Anc.Greek adjective _basileios, _Modern Greek_ Vassilios/Vassilis _that went over to many languages as Basilio, Basil, Vassili...
A connection of 'kasar' with Caesar/Kaiser (=emperor) seems improbable to me.


----------



## sotos

Basil  is "βασιλικός" (royal) in New Greek. It seems that Kasar comes from the Latino-barbarous for "king" (Keiser etc). The Linear B is _qasireu > basileu(s)._


----------



## bearded

sotos said:


> The Linear B is _qasireu > basileu(s)._


 Very interesting, Sotos.
Are you suggesting that the Latin name Caesar was - also originally -  a title meaning king (Linear B was after all a very ancient writing)?  And how is the transition from q (Lin.B) to b (later Greek) to be explained? Is it just a similarity in the letter shape or a real passage?  Thank you.


----------



## Hulalessar

I always thought Caesar meant someone with long hair.


----------



## entangledbank

The Linear B symbol <q> includes /gw/ as well as /kw/, so <qasireu> is understood as /gwasileus/, which does give later /b/, but it still doesn't license a connexion to _caesar_.

On the original question, I've never seen _kasar_, and am mystified.


----------



## sotos

bearded man said:


> And how is the transition from q (Lin.B) to b (later Greek) to be explained?


It is a common phenomenon (q > p, b)  e.g.  quο - πού, qui - ποίος, possibly _quercus_ > πεύκο etc.  

Some additional history about the plant: It is called "royal" because according to the legend it was growing at the place where St. Helen (mother of Emperor St. Constantine) found the Cross. In the orthodox rituals it is used by the priest to spread the Holy Water (hagiasmos).
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-AsciGDjYGAA/TmiDAfmfFGI/AAAAAAAAGKE/X3T5muLNb7Q/s1600/Agiasmos.jpg


----------



## rushalaim

Russian _"Tsar"_ (_"Царь"_) [king] is derived from Roman _"Caesar"_ which is derived from Greek _"Basil"_ [_Vasilious_].


----------



## bearded

rushalaim said:


> Roman _"Caesar"_ which is derived from Greek _"Basil"_ [_Vasilious_


That seems to be a daring statement to me.
Even admitting that 'Caesar' originally meant something like king (which is quite improbable), Latin is not directly 'derived' from Greek, but both languages are parallel derivations from Indo-European...


----------



## bearded

Hulalessar said:


> I always thought Caesar meant someone with long hair.


Indeed, that is the most accepted etymology.


----------



## fdb

entangledbank said:


> On the original question, I've never seen _kasar_, and am mystified.



I have found it only on commercial gardening sites. It is presumably a brand name, in any case not an established English word.

Any way, can we leave Caesar out of this?


----------



## rushalaim

fdb said:


> I have found it only on commercial gardening sites. It is presumably a brand name, in any case not an established English word.
> 
> Any way, can we leave Caesar out of this?


We cannot. Look at 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basil_(name)


----------



## fdb

The question was about "kasar", not about "basil" (which, as many on here have pointed out, has nothing to do with the name "Caesar").

I have looked at the linked site. Perhaps some fan of Wikipedia could tell us what "indirect Quranic name" is supposed to mean.


----------



## Delvo

bearded man said:


> The Ancient Greek word for king was _basileus_. Hence various derivations of names meaning 'royal' , e.g.  Anc.Greek adjective _basileios, _Modern Greek_ Vassilios/Vassilis _that went over to many languages as Basilio, Basil, Vassili...


This reminds me of the English word "vassal". (I would not comment on words for "king" while looking for words for "basil", but it is possible that the origin I'm after for "kasar" meaning "basil" could be related to a word for "king" anyway, as "basil" itself is.)




sotos said:


> The Linear B is _qasireu > basileu(s)._





entangledbank said:


> The Linear B symbol <q> includes /gw/ as well as /kw/, so <qasireu> is understood as /gwasileus/, which does give later /b/


Now we might be onto something. If that /gʷ/ became /k/ in some other language (presumably Celtic, Germanic, or Italic), it could be the origin of modern "kasar". I presume the word you're referring to meant "king", but if "baslieus" had double duty, then so could this. But it would seem to have been lost from related modern languages.

Is there an online reference for Linear B "qasireu"? And what would be the difference in meaning between "qasireu/basileus" and "reg/rex"?



entangledbank said:


> I've never seen _kasar_, and am mystified.





fdb said:


> I have found it only on commercial gardening sites. It is presumably a brand name, in any case not an established English word.


They don't capitalize it, use the "Copyright" or "Trademark" or "Registered Trademark" symbols with it, or associate it with any other indicators of a company name. They sometimes put it in quotation marks or parentheses, and at least one site prefaces it with "alternate name:".


----------



## Delvo

Delvo said:


> Is there an online reference for Linear B "qasireu"?


Now I've found several by simply doing a search for "qasireu Linear B". That still doesn't give me any sign of cognates other than Greek "basileus", though.


----------



## entangledbank

A lot of the websites use the format _Ocimum basilicum_ 'Kasar', meaning Kasar is just a cultivar name. It could be named after _anything_. In fact we find varieties _O. basilicum_ 'Ararat', 'Dark Opal', 'Lesbos', 'Genovese', 'Purple Ruffles', 'Thai Magic', 'Pesto Perpetuo', and that's just on sites that aren't blocked at my workplace . . . Of all those, 'Kasar' is one of the few that could be a common noun. I'm guessing the progression was from 'Kasar' to Kasar to kasar, by herbalists copying each other in a long cycle of slowly degrading information.


----------



## sotos

Delvo said:


> Is there an online reference for Linear B "qasireu"?


http://minoan.deaditerranean.com/resources/linear-b-sign-groups/qa/qa-si-re-u/


----------



## Delvo

According to Wikipedia on basil, the plant's association with kings didn't come along until the time of Saint Helena, Emperor Constantine's mother, which is much too late to have anything to do with Linear B... and "kasar" is not a cultivar or variety of the species.


----------



## sotos

Delvo said:


> According to Wikipedia on basil, the association with kings didn't come along until the time of Saint Helena, Emperor Constantine's mother, which is much too late to have anything to do with Linear B... and "kasar" is not a cultivar or variety of the species.


You missunderstood. _Basilikos_ is an adjective meaning "royal", i.e. royal plant. As a word existed  from antiquity (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper...tic+letter=*b:entry+group=13:entry=basiliko/s ), and later was associated with the plant. I 've never heared the "kasar" but I assumed it is related to caesar.


----------



## Hulalessar

"Kasar" is clearly the name of a cultivar or variety of basil and not an English word for basil. Cultivar names are usually given by whoever produces the cultivar and can be anything. "Kasar" could be named after a place or person or a word from any language or it could just be made up.


----------



## Delvo

sotos said:


> You missunderstood. _Basilikos_ is an adjective meaning "royal", i.e. royal plant. As a word existed  from antiquity (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:alphabetic+letter=*b:entry+group=13:entry=basiliko/s ), and later was associated with the plant.


I meant the plant's association with kings, not the word's association with kings. I've edited to clarify. But I also now see that the Feast of the Cross isn't necessarily the origin of that association (between kings and the plant) but appears to have incorporated it because it was already there, which leaves me with no indication of when the idea of basil as a royal plant began.



Hulalessar said:


> "Kasar" is clearly the name of a cultivar or variety of basil and not an English word for basil. Cultivar names are usually given by whoever produces the cultivar and can be anything. "Kasar" could be named after a place or person or a word from any language or it could just be made up.


Some botanical websites treat the word in a way that looks like that, but others clearly use it not that way but as an alternate name for _Ocimum basilicum_ instead, and it is not included in lists of basil varieties/cultivars.


----------



## sotos

Delvo said:


> the Feast of the Cross isn't necessarily the origin of that association (between kings and the plant) but appears to have incorporated it because it was already there, which leaves me with no indication of when the idea of basil as a royal plant began.



Ι like it, when ethnobotany comes to help linguistics: Basil is massively used in the Greek Orthodox churches and those with a yard always grow some basil for their needs. Basil, apart from excellent smell, has the characteristic of easy propagation. If you put a branch of basil in a glass of water it grow roots in few days. Thus, we can assume that basil was associated with rituals and temples (and therefore with kings - human or divine -) before christian era.


----------



## JRD5172

I see this is somewhat old but I found it in a Google search and I figured I would provide additional information because I have some unique knowledge.

"Kasar" is a specific cultivar but appears to have become synonymous with all or most African Blue Basil in the United States. My father-in-law introduced Kasar basil as one of the first African Blue Basil cultivars in the United States around 1993 while working for Greenleaf Perennials, now a division of Aris. The name is derived from his two daughters, Katie and Sarah. He found this entire thread amusing and showed me an old electronic catalog that talks about the name origin.


----------



## Delvo

Haha! Muchas Danke


----------



## fdb

JRD5172 said:


> I see this is somewhat old but I found it in a Google search and I figured I would provide additional information because I have some unique knowledge.
> 
> "Kasar" is a specific cultivar but appears to have become synonymous with all or most African Blue Basil in the United States. My father-in-law introduced Kasar basil as one of the first African Blue Basil cultivars in the United States around 1993 while working for Greenleaf Perennials, now a division of Aris. The name is derived from his two daughters, Katie and Sarah. He found this entire thread amusing and showed me an old electronic catalog that talks about the name origin.



 Very interesing to hear this. I did suggest (no. 12) that "it is presumably a brand name, in any case not an established English word."


----------

