# The past - as told in the present



## ampurdan

Me pregunto por el significado o valor de "one" en estas expresiones. Yo en español lo traduciría como "ese día"/"esa noche", ¿me equivoco?

"Well, I came home *this one day* an I am really irritated, and looking for a little sympathy and there'e Bernie layin' on the couch". (Por cierto, ese "there'e" ¿es una contracción de "there was"?).


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## irisheyes0583

First, this is “incorrect” English and is trying to show in written form a very “country” way of talking (common to rural areas of the US, especially in the South). 

“This one day” is a synonym for “this day”, but is a relatively common occurrence in storytelling. “An” means “and”. “There’e” I *think* is a contraction of “there were”, which is an “uneducated” (I shudder to use this adjective, but I think you know what I mean) way of saying “there was”. “Layin’” obviously means “laying”. Just of note, typically with this kind of speech, the speaker would say “I c*ome* home” instead of “I c*a*me home” (“I c*o*me” still referring to the past tense.).


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## fenixpollo

This one day = one day
there's = there is (in this case, telling the story in the present tense)

Irish is right -- very sloppy English.


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## GiggLiden

ampurdan said:
			
		

> Me pregunto por el significado o valor de "one" en estas expresiones. Yo en español lo traduciría como "ese día"/"esa noche", ¿me equivoco?
> 
> "Well, I came home *this one day* an I am really irritated, and looking for a little sympathy and there'e Bernie layin' on the couch". (Por cierto, ese "there'e" ¿es una contracción de "there was"?).


It's just to stress the IMPORTANCE of this ONE (very specific, very special, engraved in my mental RAM) day ... much more memorable than "I came one day" ... which could have been ANY old day, it doesn't stand out.)

As for the "there'e" - that's a typo ... it should read ... "there's" ... meaning there IS (not was). Even though the action took place IN the past, the term is present tense (only). The story should also read ... 
Well, I *come* home *this one day* and I am really irritated ...
because all of the rest of it is being told in the present tense.

If you want to add similar stress in Spanish, perhaps ...
en este día en particular ...
Would that work for you?

If this parachute doesn't open for you,
bring it back and we'll give you another one.


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## fenixpollo

GiggLiden said:
			
		

> As for the "there'e" - that's a typo ... it should read ... "there's" ... meaning there IS (not was). Even though the action took place IN the past, the term is present tense (only). The story should also read ...
> Well, I *come* home *this one day* and I am really irritated ...
> because all of the rest of it is being told in the present tense.


 Gigg's explanation was so much more succinct than mine.  Nicely done, Gigg!

I just wanted to add that _telling stories in the present tense in English is not correct_ -- strictly speaking, of course, and the person who's speaking is an English teacher, so take it with a grain of salt.


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## ampurdan

Thank you very much, Irisheyes. That's what I thought about "this one day", but I couldn't be sure without asking.

I guess what is not accurate is to mix present and past tenses to refer to the same timeline. Past tenses "came", "there'e". Present tense: "I am really irritated".

At least in Spanish, we have a "historical present" which not only storytellers, but also some authors use to tell stories and write parts of novels. Maybe there is no such thing in English.

As for "an", it was a typo, I'm the one to blame.

Thanks again.

EDIT- Gigg and Fenix, I haven't seen your posts, I stand corrected.


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## Puntitas

English also uses a historical present for discussing historical events, literary plots, and research. Writers sometimes use it in their novels and short stories, but it goes in and out of style fairly regularly, so many people consider it a gimic.

Where the historical present is alive and healthy is in oral narratives, like the one you cited in your original post. When I hear my students use it, they often do begin in the past, and after a sentence or two, launch straight into the present to create a sense of immediacy.

What drives English teachers, like me, crazy is that they mix their tenses, as in your example.


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## ampurdan

Hey, Gigg, thank you for the parachute, it opened perfectly and I fell gently on the meaning of all of it.

In Spanish, we wouldn't use "este", even when using historical present, but "ese día". "Ese día en particular", "el día en cuestión" could be used, but after rereading it and as there's no reference to that day before this piece of speech, I would translate it as "un día".


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## DaleC

ampurdan said:
			
		

> Me pregunto por el significado o valor de "one" en estas expresiones. Yo en español lo traduciría como "ese día"/"esa noche", ¿me equivoco? Sí, quiere decir "algun dia".
> 
> "Well, I came home *this one day* an I am really irritated, and looking for a little sympathy and there'e Bernie layin' on the couch". (Por cierto, ese "there'e" ¿es una contracción de "there was"?).


Despues de "Bueno, algún día volví a la casa", el narrador da el cambio al "presente histórico", usado con frecuencia en ambos idiomas para relatar un acontecimiento vívido.


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## ampurdan

Bueno, más que "algún" (some), "un día" (one day).


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## GiggLiden

fenixpollo said:
			
		

> Gigg's explanation was so much more succinct than mine.  Nicely done, Gigg!
> 
> I just wanted to add that _telling stories in the present tense in English is not correct_ -- strictly speaking, of course, and the person who's speaking is an English teacher, so take it with a grain of salt.



I feel to like a total, incorrigible cad, amigo!

Here you offer me this fabulous, ego-tripping compliment - por lo que quisiera agradecerte muchisimo - and how do I repay your kindness ... by being disagreeable ... i.e. disagreeing with you. 

But as gently as I can!

"_telling stories in the present tense in English is not correct"
_
Well, actually, it IS, and done not infrequently by the best of writers. It makes for more immediacy and closer rapport with the reader because emotionally it makes him feel as if he were right there, in the here and now. Not in some distant past with which he has only a tenuous connection.

Take this "mythical" situation: I was invited to the conclave where Bush-wah summons a gaggle of former Secretaries of State and their ilk, to have a chat with them. 

As I walk into that vast room, I notice lots of reporters, all eager to hear some major pronouncements. Bushytail gives a little pat speech, most of the big machers just nod politely, except for Madeline Albright who asks him some pretty sharp, pointed questions. Like ... "you're so busy with Iraq, Mr President, are you finding any time to watch Iran or Syria or other trouble spots???" Clearly, the B(r)ush-man is annoyed. The meeting is abruptly shut down to take a "family portrait" of all the happy campers who have accomplished ... as they say in español ... NADA.

And then, like magic, Bush and Cheney and The Candy Girl disappear, leaving everybody standing around, puzzled ... what happened here???? WHY WERE WE EVER INVITED to this 5-minute photo-op??
-------------
Now there is a story, all in the present tense; pertaining to what happened a few days ago. And yet ... it works! So I guess we would have to agree not to strike this technique from the list of possibilities.
-------------
But even though I disagreed with you, fenix, leave us NOT overlook the fact that I was much touched by your gracious note. Keep'em coming ! [grin]


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## DaleC

How about "un cierto día"? ¿Es buen español? 



			
				ampurdan said:
			
		

> Bueno, más que "algún" (some), "un día" (one day).


 
Pido perdon. Con retraso se me ha ocurrido que en base de mis conocimientos modestos no puedo estarme seguro del matiz exacto de "ese dia", ni "un dia". 

El usar "this" en vez de "a" "one" es un gesto retórico para hablar un relato. "This one day" en vez de "one day"; "there's this dog that" en vez de "there's a dog that".


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## ampurdan

Today, as it was a rainy cold saturday, I've decided to spent half of my afternoon seeing this tolerable movie, "Sin City". At one point, one of the multiple off-narrators says: "I only wanted this one thing" or something more genuine that the lazy linguistic part of my brains has refused to retain. Anyway, it was "this one" and was not referred to a time period. Here I would translate it as "esa única cosa", "this only thing". Unfortunately, I've given the movie back to the video store, so I cannot check which was the Spanish translation, but I'm quite sure it should be this one.


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## ampurdan

Dale, "Un cierto día" sounds good, but "un día" works perfectly well, these expressions are synonymous. 

"Algún día", "some day": algún día lo haré, I'll do it some day.

I think I've grasped your rhetoric point, Dale.


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## mhp

ampurdan said:
			
		

> Today, as it was a rainy cold saturday, I've decided to spent half of my afternoon seeing this tolerable movie, "Sin City". At one point, one of the multiple off-narrators says: "I only wanted this one thing" or something more genuine that the lazy linguistic part of my brains has refused to retain. Anyway, it was "this one" and was not referred to a time period. Here I would translate it as "esa única cosa", "this only thing". Unfortunately, I've given the movie back to the video store, so I cannot check which was the Spanish translation, but I'm quite sure it should be this one.



Sorry to butt in, just couldn't resist it. I agree with Gigg--whether I like it or not. This a perfect example of a narritive past; and an unkosher use of "one".

"It is a rainy cold saturday. I decide to spend the afternoon tolerating a Hollywood movie. Here is this character on my television screen going on about the one thing that makes him tick and I all can think about is the one thing that didn't do it for me"


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## Puntitas

Estoy de acuerdo con MHP.

"This one" antes de un sustantivo es sumamente redundante. No se considera inglés estandar. Es común en el inglés oral de situaciones informales, pero si alguien lo dice en una situación formal, suena mal. Fuera como si yo, una catedrática universitaria, le dijera a mi director--no he hablado con naiden.

He escuchado a personas que hablan español decir, "pos el día ese fui a la casa esa." Para mí, eso equivaldría a "Well, this one day I went to this (one) house." Un inglés más estandar sería, "That day, I went to that/the house."


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## ampurdan

Yes, Puntitas, you're right: "el día ese" is very colloquial (I like to use it whith my friends). But then it doesn't mean "un día" and you cannot use it if you haven't mentioned before...


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## GiggLiden

mhp said:
			
		

> Sorry to butt in, just couldn't resist it. I agree with Gigg--whether I like it or not. This a perfect example of a narritive past; and an unkosher use of "one".



 I agree with Gigg--whether I like it or not.
_*And the subtext of that is ................. ?????*_

narrative ... as in ... narrate a story


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## Chaucer

GiggLiden said:
			
		

> I feel to like a total, incorrigible cad, amigo!
> 
> Here you offer me this fabulous, ego-tripping compliment - por lo que quisiera agradecerte muchisimo - and how do I repay your kindness ... by being disagreeable ... i.e. disagreeing with you.
> 
> But as gently as I can!
> 
> "_telling stories in the present tense in English is not correct"
> _
> Well, actually, it IS, and done not infrequently by the best of writers. It makes for more immediacy and closer rapport with the reader because emotionally it makes him feel as if he were right there, in the here and now. Not in some distant past with which he has only a tenuous connection.
> 
> Take this "mythical" situation: I was invited to the conclave where Bush-wah summons a gaggle of former Secretaries of State and their ilk, to have a chat with them.
> 
> As I walk into that vast room, I notice lots of reporters, all eager to hear some major pronouncements. Bushytail gives a little pat speech, most of the big machers just nod politely, except for Madeline Albright who asks him some pretty sharp, pointed questions. Like ... "you're so busy with Iraq, Mr President, are you finding any time to watch Iran or Syria or other trouble spots???" Clearly, the B(r)ush-man is annoyed. The meeting is abruptly shut down to take a "family portrait" of all the happy campers who have accomplished ... as they say in español ... NADA.
> 
> And then, like magic, Bush and Cheney and The Candy Girl disappear, leaving everybody standing around, puzzled ... what happened here???? WHY WERE WE EVER INVITED to this 5-minute photo-op??
> -------------
> Now there is a story, all in the present tense; pertaining to what happened a few days ago. And yet ... it works! So I guess we would have to agree not to strike this technique from the list of possibilities.
> -------------
> But even though I disagreed with you, fenix, leave us NOT overlook the fact that I was much touched by your gracious note. Keep'em coming ! [grin]



"Telling stories in the present tense in English is not correct"-- Unbelievable. What a gap that leaves in the English language-- spoken or written. How does one get through life without the use of the historical present?


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## fenixpollo

As various people have pointed out, "the historical present" is widely used in English. I think it's less common in English than Spanish, but that's my own observation/opinion. 

While you may find it "unbelievable", Chaucer, some people actually prefer to hear stories that happend in the past talked about in the past tense. Go figure.

Rather than say that using the present tense to describe past events is _incorrect_, I should rephrase and say that it is _acceptable -- though less preferable_. 

Even less preferable (and, dare I say, more incorrect) is to mix the past and present in the same narrative. 





			
				ampurdan said:
			
		

> *Today*, as it *was* a rainy cold saturday, *I've* *decided* to spent half of my afternoon seeing this tolerable movie, "Sin City". At one point, one of the multiple off-narrators *says*: "I only wanted this one thing" or something more genuine that the lazy linguistic part of my brains *has refused* to retain. Anyway, it *was* "this one" and *was not referred* to a time period.


 *Today*, as it *was* a rainy, cold Saturday, *I decided* to spend half of my afternoon seeing this tolerable movie, "Sin City". At one point, one of the multiple off-narrators *said*: "I only wanted this one thing" or something more genuine that the lazy linguistic part of my brains *has refused* to retain. Anyway, it *was* "this one" and *did not refer* to a time period.


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## ampurdan

Humm... I thought you should use the past perfect when referring to actions performed during the same day one in which one is speaking...


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## mhp

Again I find myself agreeing with every one! I don’t think the use of present tense to describe past events should be taught in a classroom. But the fact is that we all use it that way: Three guys walk into the bar, one orders…


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## mhp

ampurdan said:
			
		

> Humm... I thought you should use the past present perfect when referring to actions performed during the same day one in which one is speaking...


 That is true in Spanish (particularly from Spain). Most English speakers have to learn this rule, and we often make mistake when speaking Spanish because for us it sounds unnatural. “Today I woke up late” is the natural way to tell a friend that “hoy me he despertado tarde”.


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## ampurdan

I remember that someday I found somewhere that there is the same difference in using the "pretérito perfecto" and "pretérito indefinido" between Spain and some American countries and the use of "past perfect" between BE and AE...


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## fenixpollo

Well, in BE you may be able to say "today, *I've* decided to spend my day doing x" if "today" is still the present.  But you can't say "today *was* a rainy day" in the same sentence, because then today would be over.

Today was a rainy day and I decided to watch TV.  
Today is a rainy day and I've decided to watch TV. 
Today was a rainy day and I've decided to watch TV.


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## ampurdan

Ok, Fenixpollo, I stand corrected.


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## mhp

Just a side-note: I'm curious fenixpollo, how would you explain the error in "I remember that someday I found somewhere that ..."


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## DaleC

ampurdan said:
			
		

> I remember that someday once I found somewhere that there is the same difference in using the "pretérito perfecto" and "pretérito indefinido" between Spain and some American countries and the use of "past perfect" between BE and AE...


 
The "somewhere" is OK. But "some day" cannot be used to refer to the past. You'd use "one" instead: once, one time. In the sentence you use, the word order "I once found" is also frequent.


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## hsam

irisheyes0583 said:
			
		

> First, this is “incorrect” English and is trying to show in written form a very “country” way of talking (common to rural areas of the US, especially in the South).
> 
> “This one day” is a synonym for “this day”, but is a relatively common occurrence in storytelling. “An” means “and”. “There’e” I *think* is a contraction of “there were”, which is an “uneducated” (I shudder to use this adjective, but I think you know what I mean) way of saying “there was”. “Layin’” obviously means “laying”. Just of note, typically with this kind of speech, the speaker would say “I c*ome* home” instead of “I c*a*me home” (“I c*o*me” still referring to the past tense.).


I would completely agree with irisheyes as this is very poor English and sounds like something someone from the Deep South of the States would say. I would simply say that this is a very informal (incorrect) way of emphasising that you came home and to my mind does not emphasise the specific day.

I am not sure whether there is an equivalent in Spanish but maybe you can work out what sounds best from this information.

Suerte


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## ampurdan

Thank you, Dale.


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## el_empollon

To me, saying "I came home this one day" sounds more like something someone from California would say while telling a story (I heard a lot of people talk like that the last time I was in Los Angeles). I think it's more "one day" instead of "this day".
 
They said a lot of things like: I knew this one dude... There was this one time when... We went to this one store...


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## fenixpollo

I don't think it's limited to the South, nor to poor people, nor to rural areas.  I've heard this kind of speech from inner-city kids, and many of my relatives from Iowa and the rest of the Midwestern U.S. also mix past and present forms.

"One day, uncle Vern come out and Millie was settin' on the porch..."

As for someday, it describes an indeterminate day in the conditional future.  For an indeterminate day in the past, Dale's idea is better -- _one day_...  _Somewhere_, as a place, isn't tied to present or future.


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## Puntitas

I agree with Fenixpollo.

I've heard both the "this one _____" construction and tense mixing from people of various social classes and walks of life. I think both have a lot more to do with the conventions of oral discourse than with anything else, and I suspect that most people do these things without being conscious of it. 

When I'm interpreting (my day job), I hear social workers, physicians, lawyers, therapists, and even teachers say all sorts of things they would call uneducated if heard from someone else.

I don't think these particular offenses are especially serious, or maybe they're just not pet peeves of mine.


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## ampurdan

Puntitas said:
			
		

> I agree with Fenixpollo.
> 
> I've heard both the "this one _____" construction and tense mixing from people of various social classes and walks of life. I think both have a lot more to do with the conventions of oral discourse than with anything else, and I suspect that most people do these things without being conscious of it.
> 
> When I'm interpreting (my day job), I hear social workers, physicians, lawyers, therapists, and even teachers say all sorts of things they would call uneducated if heard from someone else.
> 
> I don't think these particular offenses are especially serious, or maybe they're just not pet peeves of mine.


 
You can observe the same schizophrenic linguistical phenomenon among Spanish speaking educated people.


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## hsam

Sorry if I've offended anyone I simply meant to say that when I read the start in my head I imagined someone talking in a long southern drawl and I simply mean that at face-value it honestly didn't have an subtext to do with class or position.

Sorry again


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## mhp

el_empollon said:
			
		

> To me, saying "I came home this one day" sounds more like something someone from California would say while telling a story (I heard a lot of people talk like that the last time I was in Los Angeles). I think it's more "one day" instead of "this day".
> 
> They said a lot of things like: I knew this one dude... There was this one time when... We went to this one store...



This is so funny. Guilty as charged . Especially "I knew this one dude ..." I guess when I use the word dude, I unconsciously consent that all rules are out the window.

Una pregunta para nuestros amigos hispanohablantes: ¿se puede decir "Recuerdo que algún día encontré en un lugar..."?  ¿Hay preferencia por “algún día”, “una vez”, “un día”, etcétera?


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## ampurdan

No, la verdad es que "algún día" también se reserva para expresiones futuras y la frase suena muy rara (no sé por qué cometí el error yo en inglés). Debería ser "Recuerdo que un día encontré en un lugar", también se podría utilizar "una vez".


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## GiggLiden

In an earlier thread - I cannot recall its title, but no matter - I suggested that an occurrence that happened a while ago is frequently related _in the present tense_. There were several who disagreed with that concept, so here's a story from today's New York Times; than which there IS no better standard for grammatical correctness. And I quote:

"Dear Diary:
I'm walking down a busy Ninth Avenue during rush hour, and I accidentally jostle a woman pushing a baby carriage when she stops short at a corner. After saying "excuse me," I peer into the carriage, where I see what appears to be the back of an exceptionally curly-headed blond tot. When I finally pass the woman, I see that the "tot" is actually a dog, who's sitting upright, happy as can be. There is no baby in sight. The woman, who has the harried-mom look down pat, moves on.
(Dawn Shurmaitis)"


I found the thread you were referring and moved this post into it


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