# imperieux (F), of imperium/imperi (L) = imperiere/l’impérièr



## kjohns2486

Dudo, in his Historia Normannorum, or _Libri III de moribus et actis primorum Normanniae ducum _wrote of Charles the Simple who in completing the Treaty of Saint-Clair-sur-Epte in 911, was unexpectedly toppled by a lowly Viking companion of Rollo. When the surprised King arose the word l’imperiere (Latin), l’empérière (French) was shouted out, either in jest, or anger. The word coined that day became the nickname of the Viking warrior and exists today. 

According to J.F. Leturcq, Director of the National Institute of Heraldry, Paris _Généalogie de la Famille de l'empérire, Normandie-Bretagne, dressée par J.-F. Leturcq_, Ancien Avocat, Archiviste-paléographe, Directeur de l'Institut National Héraldique, Paris, Institut National Héraldique, 1904, who verified the name of the Viking and the word, states it stems from the word imperieux (f) and imperium/imperi (l), meaning imperious, et al. 

In America, the word has been interpreted as Empress because of a feminine -ère ending. Even though there is no word in Latin for Empress that's anything like it and French for Empress is Imperatrice. 

My question is, based on that background, is the ending a feminine -ère? Or, is an -re added to the word imperieux/imperi ? Whatever the answer, how would one interpret imperiere, l’impérière?


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## CapnPrep

kjohns2486 said:


> Dudo, in his Historia Normannorum, or _Libri III de moribus et actis primorum Normanniae ducum _wrote of Charles the Simple who in completing the Treaty of Saint-Clair-sur-Epte in 911, was unexpectedly toppled by a lowly Viking companion of Rollo. When the surprised King arose the word l’imperiere (Latin), l’empérière (French) was shouted out, either in jest, or anger.


Would you please reproduce the passage in the text where this word is mentioned? The episode you refer to appears in chapter 12 of the Gesta Normannorum, but there is no reference to the word you are interested in.


> iussit cuidam militi pedem regis osculari. Qui statim pedem regis  arripiens deportauit ad os suum standoque defixit osculum regemque fecit  resupinum. Itaque magnus excitatur risus; magnusque in plebe tumultus.


The word for "emperor" in Old French was _emperere _(nominative form) / _empereor_ (oblique form). In later periods, the words _emperier_ (masculine) and _emperiere_ (feminine) were used to mean "leader, sovereign".

Again, we need to see the original text to know the actual form used and the full context.


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## kjohns2486

First, thank you so much for responding so quickly. You have also answered one questions I had and I appreciate it. 

I do not have the latin writing in which the word is supposed to be included. Even if I did, probably would not recognize the word. 

But, I do have the paragraph found in the National Archieves of France, referring to Dudo's work and concerning the word, which relates to the Viking who upset Charles. In reading it over, I notice that it says Rollon and Jehan OF Lemperire, meaning a place. (Which may be Lempire, in Picardy in 911, and make the meaning of the word moot, as it repesents a place.) What I have follows: 

Jehan, compagnon of Rollon of LEMPERIRE
Ce Viking serait celui qui, chargé par ledit Rollon de baiser a' sa place le pied du roi Charles le Simple, aurait élevé ce pied jusqu'a' ses le'vres, expédiant ainsi le roi a' la renverse. Il va sans dire qu'on n'en a aucune preuve. Ce serait a' la suite de cet "exploît" que le Viking en question, qu'on appelle Jehan, aurait reçu le sobriquet de l'empérie're, et plus tard, le surnom permanent de L'Empérie're, deux signifiant l'imperieux.

Note: the accent on the second "e" leans to the left. It will not print properly on this screen, so had to insert an accent. 

Hopefully, you can tell the meaning and enlighten me. I pray you can enlighten me. I truly thank you for your help and interest. 
KJ


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## CapnPrep

This is a family legend with no basis in any historical texts. Which means that many interpretations are possible, and none verifiable. 

Within the context of the story, I would guess that _Lempérière _derives either from a deformation of the Old French noun _emperere_ (emperor), or from the feminine adjective _emperiere_ (imperial), which would have described the Viking's hand.


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## Ben Jamin

kjohns2486 said:


> Even though there is no word in Latin for Empress that's anything like it and French for Empress is Imperatrice.


 
What about *imperatrix*?


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## kjohns2486

Thanks so much for the help!
kj


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## kjohns2486

CapnPrep,

After your help and my noticing it may have been a place referred to, I began a new hunt.  Bingo! I found the place in L'Empereur, Liege, BELGIUM, which in 911, belonged to the Francs. There I found _Lempérière _and L'Empereur's, dating back to at least 900.

Could that fact have any impact on what _Lempérière _might mean? Like a New Yorker from New York, or the name of a fife, which often ended in -ere?  Any ideas?

Won't bother you again, but thought you might be interested in the outcome. Thanks so much!
kj


_ 
_


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## CapnPrep

kjohns2486 said:


> Bingo! I found the place in L'Empereur, Liege, BELGIUM, which in 911, belonged to the Francs.


Apparently there was an old residence or inn in the province of Liège called "À l'Empereur", but if that's what you're referring to, then no bingo. This name refers to Napoleon (see here).



kjohns2486 said:


> Like a New Yorker from New York, or the name of a fife, which often ended in -ere?  Any ideas?


I think you mean a _*fief*_. Anyway, as I said before, without further historical evidence, the origin of this name must be considered uncertain.


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## kjohns2486

Nope, still exists today, listed as a city with a population of 11,00+ (more like a village). Refers to 800 AD Emperor(s) of the Holy Roman Emprie - First, Charlemange, born in Herstal, Liege. Then Louis I, the Pious, and Lothaire I, the next two Emperors of the Holy Roman Empire who oversaw Liege.  According to the Liege Librarian,  all long before Napolean, who didn't become involved until the Province of Liege was created in 1795.


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## CapnPrep

kjohns2486 said:


> Nope, still exists today, listed as a city with a population of 11,00+ (more like a village).


Where is it listed?  There's no sign of it here, for example. And more to the point, how do you establish the link between this place name and the name _Lempérière_?


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## kjohns2486

Hey, 
It's tiny so really hard to find. In the town of L'Empereur, 27 miles west of Liege, were, and between there and Liege today, are found  L'Emperiere's, Lemperiere's and L'Empereur's, dating way, way back.  But, that is beside the point!

You said you would guess that "_Lempérière _derives either from a deformation of the Old French noun _emperere_ (emperor), or from the feminine adjective _emperiere_ (imperial), which would have described the Viking's hand." 

The real point is, there is a town of L'Empereur, Liege, Belgium. My question back to you was imprecisely, if _Lempérière was  a name and they were of _the town of "L'Empereur," could L'Emperiere somehow indicate one from L'Empereur - such as, one from New York, is a New Yorker - or one from Paris is a Parisian? Or could it be the name of a fife, or village with the -ere ending?  

I may be putting too much faith in you and your knowledge of the language, more than a thousand years ago and that is unfair to you. I was just hoping as you know the languages, you might have some idea. If not, it's o.k.. I appreciate what you have already given me. 
kj


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## CapnPrep

kjohns2486 said:


> My question back to you was imprecisely, if _Lempérière was  a name and they were of _the town of "L'Empereur," could L'Emperiere somehow indicate one from L'Empereur - such as, one from New York, is a New Yorker - or one from Paris is a Parisian?


No, you cannot get from _L'Empereur_ to _Lempérière_ through regular suffixation. There is a common suffix _-ier_ for French demonyms, but _L'Empe*r*eu*r* + ie*r*_ would not give you _Lempérière_ without a lot of extra assumptions (the vowels are wrong, and there is a missing _r_). And again, in this case, _Lempérière_ would be a feminine form.

There are a small number of demonyms irregularly formed from the suffix _-(i)ère_ (for both masculine and feminine). Here are some examples, taken from a website that is not totally reliable:


Beaulieu → Béliquière
Le Cheix → Aucheixère
Montfermy → Fourminère
Royat  → Royadère
Saint-Romain-en-Gal → Romanère                
Virigneux → Virignère                
 As you can see, the formal relationship between the place name and the demonym can be quite unpredictable. If _Lempérière_ is derived in this way, then the original name of the town could be many things (but _L'Empereur_ does not seem to me to be very likely).



kjohns2486 said:


> Or could it be the name of a fife, or village with the -ere ending?


Of course it could be, but where is/was this "fife" or village?



kjohns2486 said:


> I may be putting too much faith in you and your knowledge of the  language, more than a thousand years ago and that is unfair to you.


I continue to believe that the origin of _Lempérière_ is uncertain. You can put as much faith in that as you like. Anything further than that should not be faith-based, but evidence-based.


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## kjohns2486

Finally - FYI - 

This is the first time I even knew L'Empereur ever existed. Have no idea how I got to the site in the first place, but did:
http://www.guidedways.com/prayertim...e-latitude-50.6333333-longitude-5.0666667.htm

Tha led me to this map of L'Empereur - 
http://www.fallingrain.com/world/BE/04/LEmpereur.html

Found this third site, so by now know it exists. 
http://www.booking.com/searchresults.html?city=-1963546&aid=327946&label=h_misto_l-empereur_ufi#

Since, have found six other map sites that list it as a city, in Liege, Belgium. Then placed a call to the Liege Library, and they confirmed it's existence and gave me the info on it's existence since the time of Emperor Charlemagne. No one has any idea why it is only listed on maps by Latitude and Longitude. 

Thought you'd like to know. Again, all my thanks! kj


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## CapnPrep

I see. This is in fact the same place that I mentioned above in #10, although I have now found more complete information about the origin of the name (see below).

L'Empereur is not a town, much less a city. It is not even a village. It is a hamlet located between the villages of Moxhe and Villers-le-Peuplier in the commune of Hannut. According to this geographical dictionary, L'Empereur consisted of just a few houses in 1842 (see p. 315 and p. 370). I'm not sure where you got the information that the current population of L'Empereur is "11,00+" (whatever that means), since Moxhe and Villers together have fewer than 1500 inhabitants.

The area itself has of course been inhabited for a very long time, and there is a Roman tomb known as the "Tombe de l'Empereur" on the eastern side of L'Empereur. Here it is on the map, here is a photo, and here is the full text of the archeological report detailing the excavations of June 1873. According to this last source (p. 495, fn. 1), the name _L'Empereur_ can be traced back to 1695 and probably refers to Charles V (not Napoleon, as the previously cited source suggested, but still hundreds of years after Charlemagne).


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## kjohns2486

Wow, that was a lot of info. Just knew you would help me sort it out. Told you l'Empereur was tiny. Thought of everthing BUT a hamlet, which I now know is dependent on Moxhe, which I did find on every map. The coordinates for the center of l'Empereur are Latitude 50.6333333 and Longitude 5.0666667. I think you sent me the map for the Tomb itself? 

Very specifically, as I was not before, the population for 7 kilometers around the center of l'Empereur is 11,314, which undoubtedly would include Moxhe. By the way, thanks for the correction on fife as fief. Must have been thinking music.

As Moxhe is said to have existed before Liege in the Roman area of Brabant, and Hannut, before the Duchy of Brabant, to believe that the hamlet of l'Empereur existed then is not a stretch - not proven - but not a stretch. And, as Lemperiere's and L'Empereur's are found in the area up to and around Liege, for hundreds of years, before Charles V, to postulate they were from the area, also is not a stretch.

In reading the footnote that says the name l'Empereur seems to be given in memory to Charles V, is a real reach - The tomb is said to be of early Germanic origin, if not in fact Roman.  And history speaks of l'Empereur for most every Emperor since the Roman era. Sure wish I had benefits of seeing the records they referred to, to decide if fact or supposition. 

The footnote doesn't fit. 

All I can do is write of what I have found, with your magnanimous help. That the two families came from or settled in the Belgae, is very clear. That they may have come with Rollo, who fought many battles in Liege, with Jehan Lemperiere, and settled in l'Empereur, is less clear... I will leave that possibility for others  to ponder and sort out. 

Again, can't thank you enough - never would have found the documents you sent along without you. They are priceless for my purposes. 
kj


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## CapnPrep

Glad to be of help. As you said, the tomb is quite ancient, either Roman or Germanic, but its name is not. It's called the "tombe de l'Empereur" simply because it's located in L'Empereur, not because an emperor was buried there. We know whose tomb it was, or what it was called during the Middle Ages (or earlier). 

But you're right, it's hard to tell from that footnote why the name of the hamlet should refer to Charles V. And older records may now be available, allowing the history of L'Empereur to be traced back further than 1695. You should plan a trip to Belgium sometime… 

At this point, however, we are no longer talking about etymology, so we should probably bring this discussion to a close, or move it elsewhere. But if you have any more questions about Old French, feel free to ask here.


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## kjohns2486

Again, my deepest thanks!
kj


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## kjohns2486

Hey, Capn,

Think I have solved the mystery of l'Empérière and l'Empereur, Liege, Belgium, which in 912 was Flanders in 912. It may be that instead of looking for French meanings, I should have been looking at the languages of Wallon and Picard. Anyway, here is what I found.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blason_populaire

When you respond back, if you want, use my email address:
kjohns2486@wowway.com


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## Frank06

kjohns2486 said:


> Think I have solved the mystery of l'Empérière and l'Empereur, Liege, Belgium, which in 912 was Flanders in 912.


Liège, Flemish, in 912? What exactly do you mean?



> It may be that instead of looking for French meanings, I should have been looking at the languages of Wallon and Picard. Anyway, here is what I found.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blason_populaire


I don't understand the link between Walloon, Picard, Blason populaire, Liège, l'Empérière/l'Empereur



> When you respond back, if you want, use my email address:
> kjohns2486@wowway.com


When you respond back, if you want, use this forum.

Frank


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## kjohns2486

As our conversations progressed we were talking about the possible meaning of Lempérie're, which is one of the spellings for the family of Lempereur. The spelling of  Lempérie're was first found in 912, a nickname given to an aid to Rollo. One of my last questions was could it be that the -ere, or -iere suffix could indicate it was the name of a fife?  It was suggested that it could be a denomyn, as it could not be accurately translated in French. 

I had found the town, actually a hamlet of l'Empereur, Liege, Wallon Region, Belgium, and was given the info about the "Tomb of the Emperor" in the same hamlet, and Lemperiere's and Lempereur's dating back hundred's of years. Was told it was doubtful that Lemperiere and l'Empereur were connected. 

When I found the following, realized that they could well be connected, and that the origin could have been l'Empereur, Liege, Belgium, and rather than a denomyn, it comes from a Blason populaires, that cannot be translated into French as it comes from either/or Picardy, or Wallonia, in Picard or Walloon. 

I was following up that last communication when it was suggested that as were had gotten far afield from Old French, that we take the conversation elsewhere, hence my e-mail address. Also wanted to let the extremely generous person I have been communicating with for the past two weeks, know I believed I had solved the mystery and maybe to get guidence on how to further check on the Wallon and Picard languages. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blason_populaire

Frank, I have the sense you are not that person, because of the questions you asked. But that is it in a nutshell.


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## Frank06

kjohns2486 said:


> As our conversations progressed we were talking about the possible meaning of Lempérie're, which is one of the spellings for the family of Lempereur. The spelling of  Lempérie're was first found in 912, a nickname given to an aid to Rollo. One of my last questions was could it be that the -ere, or -iere suffix could indicate it was the name of a fife?  It was suggested that it could be a denomyn, as it could not be accurately translated in French.
> 
> I had found the town, actually a hamlet of l'Empereur, Liege, Wallon Region, Belgium, and was given the info about the "Tomb of the Emperor" in the same hamlet, and Lemperiere's and Lempereur's dating back hundred's of years. Was told it was doubtful that Lemperiere and l'Empereur were connected.
> 
> When I found the following, realized that they could well be connected, and that the origin could have been l'Empereur, Liege, Belgium, and rather than a denomyn, it comes from a Blason populaires, that cannot be translated into French as it comes from either/or Picardy, or Wallonia, in Picard or Walloon.
> 
> I was following up that last communication when it was suggested that as were had gotten far afield from Old French, that we take the conversation elsewhere, hence my e-mail address. Also wanted to let the extremely generous person I have been communicating with for the past two weeks, know I believed I had solved the mystery and maybe to get guidence on how to further check on the Wallon and Picard languages.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blason_populaire


Okay, but that is the explanation which already got posted in this thread. And it still leaves two questions:
1. Liège, Flemish, in 912? What exactly do you mean by this?
2. I still don't get it how the blason populaire (i.e. "an umbrella genre in the field of folkloristics used to designate any item of any genre which makes use of stereotypes, usually, but not always, negative stereotypes, of a particular group") fits in.

Frank


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