# "We've already discussed this yesterday."



## Donnie

Is this grammatical?

"We've already discussed this yesterday."


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## Txiri

Not for me.  "Yesterday" is a marker that places the action in the past.


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## FRENFR

When you use "have" with a verb, do not use a time reference. The whole point of using "have" (or has, for he she it) is to indicate the past without the exact time..so it's confusing, and wrong, and it drives me up the wall when people use it here far too regularly!!  (here = any english pseaking country)


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## Donnie

FRENFR said:
			
		

> When you use "have" with a verb, do not use a time reference. (here = any english pseaking country)


 
?? Have you seen him *this morning*?


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## FRENFR

Possibly. If you are using this "have/has" construction, and you use the time frame (which you should't) but this time frame IS when you are AT THE MOMENT OF SAYING IT, it is more acceptable. 

If it is 9am, you *could* say: "have you seen him this morning"? But, it would be better to say "Have you seen him yet?" That implies, from whenever in the past, until this point in time. Understand?

So, your sentence is "perhaps and more acceptable than the first question but still not properly correct".


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## Donnie

FRENFR said:
			
		

> So, your sentence is "perhaps and more acceptable than the first question but still not properly correct".


 
This is strange. I live in England and work in an office. Every day someone will say something like "Have you seen...this morning?" when it is still morning. Are those native speakers all incorrect in their use?


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## FRENFR

Yes, they are.

They should say "Did you see so-and-so this morning?"  Or "Have you seen so-and-so yet?"

Have/has are not to be used with times.  

I have responded to you just now.  Completely wrong.
I responded to you just now.  Right

He has made a cup of tea 10 minutes ago.  Completely wrong.
He made a cup of tea 10 minutes ago.  Right.


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## Donnie

FRENFR said:
			
		

> Yes, they are.


 
!!! Now I'm really confused. So, I can't say "what have you been doing this morning" or "what have you done this morning" when it is still morning?


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## FRENFR

That is correct.  Have been is the progressive form, and is ok.  

What did you do this morning is correct.
What have you done this morning is not, but everyone says it.  If you go deep into grammar, you will see I am right..Trust me!  

I admit right now that I use it incorrectly with friends/family.  But, at work, never.  I make a conscious effort to sound educated!


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## Donnie

FRENFR said:
			
		

> That is correct. Have been is the progressive form, and is ok.
> 
> What did you do this morning is correct.
> What have you done this morning is not, but everyone says it. If you go deep into grammar, you will see I am right..Trust me!
> 
> I admit right now that I use it incorrectly with friends/family. But, at work, never. I make a conscious effort to sound educated!


 
!!! "What have you done this morning, up to now?" Is that incorrect use?


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## FRENFR

It's a long complicated way of saying "What have you been doing". It works, but people might think "what a long sentence".

"What have you done". It's nearly as bad (if not as bad), as saying "I would of went"

Ghastly!!!! Correct = I would HAVE GONE. It's the kind of error. People say it far too much. Maybe it's our education system and the fact that pupils can leave at 16 *rolls eyes*.


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## panjandrum

We have already discussed this.
We discussed this yesterday.
Both OK, but as has been pointed out, combining the have already with yesterday is not OK.

On the other hand, I can't see any problem with: 
"Have you seen Bill today?"
"Has anyone spoken to Karen since last night?"
"What have you written this morning?"

I haven't come across anything that suggests this would be wrong, though there's no doubt at all that *He has made a cup of tea 10 minutes ago* is strange.  
*He has made four cups of tea this morning* sounds fine to me.


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## marget

I agree that the verb in the original sentence should be past tense because of the mention of yesterday.  However, I also wonder if the object pronoun should be that, not this. _We already discussed that yesterday _sounds better to me.


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## FRENFR

Panjandrum.  That's exactly it.  You used  What have you WRITTEN.  Not the form Donnie used, which would be in thie context "What have you wrote this morning".

"He has made 4 cups of tea this morning".  As deglithful as the context sounds, it should read "He made....this morning".  To say "he has made.....this morning" is not right.  I did say however, that I would use this myself, knowing it's wrong.  

I'll hunt for a reliable source.  Ironically, as I write this, another incorrect usage has been given to me!  I shall share it with you:

Friend:  I told her that she is being anti-sociable recently

Correct?  NO!  I told her that she HAS BEEN anti-sociable recently.  To say "I told her that she IS being a-s recently" confuses the two clauses.

I told her = past.  She is being = present progressive.  Recently = at some point in the past.  The present progressive *must* be used here, and the *recently* has to be removed.


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## Donnie

FRENFR said:
			
		

> It's a long complicated way of saying "What have you been doing". It works, but people might think "what a long sentence".
> 
> quote]
> 
> I put the adverb of time into the sentence just to make it clear that the present perfect is also used for an "up to now" situation. The sentence could do just as well without it.


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## FRENFR

> I put the adverb of time into the sentence just to make it clear that the present perfect is also used for an "up to now" situation. The sentence could do just as well without it.


 
Correct.  Why did you ask then?


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## Donnie

FRENFR said:
			
		

> "He has made 4 cups of tea this morning". As deglithful as the context sounds, it should read "He made....this morning". To say "he has made.....this morning" is not right. I did say however, that I would use this myself, knowing it's wrong.


 
I disagree with you. 

"He has made four cups of tea this morning." (Can express that he still has the chance to, or may decide to, make more.) Present perfect for an "up to now" situation.

"He made four cups of tea this morning" has more of a "termination feel" to it.


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## FRENFR

Go http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/2527/presentperfect.html there, and see "basics".

Saves me arguing it over with a non-native speaker!


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## panjandrum

I agree with Donnie's point about the tea.

Could you explain, clearly, why there is a problem?


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## FRENFR

I do agree with the tea point.  My link was for the whole thread.  My problem is regarding "to have DONE something" + "no time reference".  That's the whole point of using the "have/has done" structure.  If you want to say the time when it happenED, you use "DID".

If you want to say he did (not has done), and still is, you use has been doiNG.

What's the confusion?


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## sound shift

_Have you seen x this morning? , _*provided that, when the question is asked, the morning has not finished*.

If, at three o' clock in the afternoon, the speaker wants to know if y saw x in the morning, the question has to be:

_Did you see x this morning?


_Speakers of Dutch are inclined to get this wrong and say, "I have been to Germany two weeks ago".


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## FRENFR

I agree as I said that here:

"If you are using this "have/has" construction, and you use the time frame (which you should't) but this time frame IS when you are AT THE MOMENT OF SAYING IT, it is more acceptable".

I've edited the original post as I did say that was incorrect, which was an error.


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## panjandrum

What's the confusion?


			
				Donnie said:
			
		

> !!! "What have you done this morning, up to now?" Is that incorrect use?





			
				FRENFR said:
			
		

> [...] "What have you done". It's nearly as bad (if not as bad), as saying "I would of went"
> 
> Ghastly!!!! Correct = I would HAVE GONE. It's the kind of error. People say it far too much. Maybe it's our education system and the fact that pupils can leave at 16 *rolls eyes*.





			
				FRENFR said:
			
		

> Panjandrum. That's exactly it. You used What have you WRITTEN. Not the form Donnie used, which would be in thie context "What have you wrote this morning".


I don't see this analogy at all. The equivalent form would be "What have you did this morning ..." which is not the form Donnie used.

I'm still curious to find out more about the possibility that 
"What have you done this morning."
- asked at 11:00 - is in some way incorrect.


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## river

*This morning, this week, this month, this year*

If the period we are talking about has not finished yet, "What have you done this morning" - asked at 11:00 - is correct. If that question is asked after noon, the past simple is required: "What did you do this morning?"


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## Donnie

FRENFR said:
			
		

> I've edited the original post as I did say that was incorrect, which was an error.


 
I wish I'd seen that edit earlier: Ive just spent 3 hours searching through grammar books to see why I cannot use "what have you done this morning/afternoon/today/this year, etc". I didn't find any reason why.

Are you a native speaker, FRENFR?


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## Donnie

<I'm still curious to find out more about the possibility that 
"What have you done this morning."
- asked at 11:00 - is in some way incorrect.>

It isn't incorrect. Even according to traditional grammar rules.


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## Donnie

river said:
			
		

> *This morning, this week, this month, this year*
> 
> If the period we are talking about has not finished yet, "What have you done this morning" - asked at 11:00 - is correct. If that question is asked after noon, the past simple is required: "What did you do this morning?"


 
That's right. 

Thanks to all for your help. I've found extra help here:

http://www-rcf.usc.edu/~pancheva/Pancheva&vonStechow(2004).pdf


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## se16teddy

'I have done it yesterday.' is wrong because you mustn't specify a point of time in the past in a present perfective sentence. There is a clash between using the present perfective, which implies 'up till now', and stating a particular time that has passed. 
However, 'I have done it. Yesterday.' is OK! Here you are adding further information in a separate sentence.


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## Donnie

se16teddy said:
			
		

> 'I have done it yesterday.' is wrong because you mustn't specify a point of time in the past in a present perfective sentence. There is a clash between using the present perfective, which always implies 'up till now', and stating a particular time that has passed.
> However, 'I have done it. Yesterday.' is OK! Here you are adding further information in a separate sentence.


 
Yes, I agree. The "yesterday" there means "I did it yesterday", right?


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## Donnie

This is interesting:

http://www.era.lib.ed.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/1842/1124/1/Hitzeman_1994_a.pdf


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## se16teddy

Donnie said:
			
		

> Yes, I agree. The "yesterday" there means "I did it yesterday", right?


 Yes.


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## Johnny Blaze

Donnie said:
			
		

> !!! Now I'm really confused. So, I can't say "what have you been doing this morning" or "what have you done this morning" when it is still morning?



You're not supposed to. But everyone does regardless.


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## panjandrum

Donnie said:
			
		

> So, I can't say "what have you been doing this morning" or "what have you done this morning" when it is still morning?


 


			
				Johnny Blaze said:
			
		

> You're not supposed to. But everyone does regardless.


Why not?
What is the problem?
I appeal to all those who protest that there is something incorrect about this usage to give some reason, justification and backing for their statements.

*You're not supposed to* is not, at this point in the thread, enough.


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## Donnie

Johnny Blaze said:
			
		

> You're not supposed to. But everyone does regardless.


 
I cannot find one grammar reference, either on paper or in electronic form, that agrees with you on that.

According to you and another person here, I cannot say:

_And what have you been up to these past weeks?_

_What have you achieved during this year?_

_Have you drunk water in the past hour? Yes? Then you I can't do the tests._

_In this year, John has persistently been late for class._


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## foxfirebrand

I usually jump into threads about the present perfect tense, but FRENFR has held down the command post under intense fire, and countered the objections in every particular most accurately.

His point about non-speakers is especially well taken.  Romance languages use the compound tense (avere + past participle) in a completely different way than it's used in English-- I would say in the opposite way when it comes to finished vs indefinite action.

The tendency to use simple past and forms with _did_ is even more pronounced in AE.  Non-native learners are very stubborn in the overuse of present perfect-- it's one of the first things about their speech that natives notice, to mark them as Europeans.

We hear what we expect to hear sometimes.  I think speakers of Romance languages take note of the present perfect and gloss over the times they hear the simple past, or they tend to be reinforced by what makes sense _to them._ 

"Has anyone made tea this morning," assuming the sentence was said exactly that way, still has an implied _yet_ in it, but it is not heard by someone to whom the sentence makes sense (as a question about a completed action) in his native tongue.

This works both ways.  In struggling through Romance languages, we AE speakers are always trying to use the _preterite_ instead of the present perfect.  Using those tenses correctly just sounds so wrong.
 .


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## big-melon

Donnie said:
			
		

> This is strange. I live in England and work in an office. Every day someone will say something like "Have you seen...this morning?" when it is still morning. Are those native speakers all incorrect in their use?


 
Maybe the native speacker pay little attention to it, just like we speak our mother tongue, I think.


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## Donnie

foxfirebrand said:
			
		

> The tendency to use simple past and forms with _did_ is even more pronounced in AE. Non-native learners are very stubborn in the overuse of present perfect-- it's one of the first things about their speech that natives notice, to mark them as Europeans.
> 
> Err...The British are also Europeans and native speakers.
> 
> 
> This works both ways. In struggling through Romance languages, we AE speakers are always trying to use the _preterite_ instead of the present perfect. Using those tenses correctly just sounds so wrong.
> 
> Yes, like "did you see the new Taratinino yet". Sounds awful to me, a BrEng trained speaker. What happened there? When did AmEng speaker begin making the error?
> .


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## DavyBCN

I have to disagree with firefoxbrand that FRENFR has responded most accurately in this thread. I have found his contributions to have been very doubtful - and sometimes extremely dismissive of others. In addition, the original web reference he gave is very poor. Even its first section, entitled "The Basics", it is just wrong. 

Certainly there are differences betwee BE and AE native speakers in our use of the present perfect and past simple tenses, many of which have been discussed in other recent threads. FRENFR's contributions will only serve to increase the problems that learners can have in this area. Donnie's contributions represent, at least to this native BE speaker and teacher of English, not only excellent grammar but also good modern usage.

There really does sometimes appear to be a view that "if I don't use it then it must be wrong". Your comment about non native speakers being stubborn in their "overuse" of the perfect borders on an insult - to them and to native speakers of English from other parts of the world. I could complain about AE speakers "incorrect use" of the past simple, but that would be arrogant of me.


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## Donnie

big-melon said:
			
		

> Maybe the native speacker pay little attention to it, just like we speak our mother tongue, I think.


 
Please find me a qualified source which says that "what have you done this morning" (when still morning) is incorrect.


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## San

foxfirebrand said:
			
		

> I usually jump into threads about the present perfect tense, but FRENFR has held down the command post under intense fire, and countered the objections in every particular most accurately.
> 
> His point about non-speakers is especially well taken. Romance languages use the compound tense (avere + past participle) in a completely different way than it's used in English-- I would say in the opposite way when it comes to finished vs indefinite action.
> 
> The tendency to use simple past and forms with _did_ is even more pronounced in AE. Non-native learners are very stubborn in the overuse of present perfect-- it's one of the first things about their speech that natives notice, to mark them as Europeans.
> 
> We hear what we expect to hear sometimes. I think speakers of Romance languages take note of the present perfect and gloss over the times they hear the simple past, or they tend to be reinforced by what makes sense _to them._
> 
> "Has anyone made tea this morning," assuming the sentence was said exactly that way, still has an implied _yet_ in it, but it is not heard by someone to whom the sentence makes sense (as a question about a completed action) in his native tongue.
> 
> This works both ways.  In struggling through Romance languages, we AE speakers are always trying to use the _preterite_ instead of the present perfect.  Using those tenses correctly just sounds so wrong.
> .


Hi, only a comment about Romance languages (and sorry my very bad English, I usually read this forum, but I had never posted):

Latinoamerican people speak certainly a Romance language, the Spanish, and believe me that their tendency to use past simple when they speak their mother tongue is even bigger than in the AE case. Do they sound as Europeans? It would be difficult, but any way, the very fact is that I've found the usage of the present perfect in my mother tongue (Castillian Spanish) closer to BE than to American Spanish.

So, although I'm just a beginner English learner, it is shocking to me hear that "Romance languages use the compound tense in a completely different way than it's used in English". I've indeed found a few differences, but in many cases is the same in my language.


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## DavyBCN

San said:
			
		

> Hi, only a comment about Romance languages (and sorry my very bad English, I usually read this forum, but I had never posted):
> 
> Latinoamerican people speak certainly a Romance language, the Spanish, and believe me that their tendency to use past simple when they speak their mother tongue is even bigger than in the AE case. Do they sound as Europeans? It would be difficult, but any way, the very fact is that I've found the usage of the present perfect in my mother tongue (Castillian Spanish) closer to BE than to American Spanish.
> 
> So, although I'm just a beginner English learner, it is shocking to me hear that "Romance languages use the compound tense in a completely different way than it's used in English". I've indeed found a few differences, but in many cases is the same in my language.


 

I agree totally. I have Castillian Spanish, Catalan, French and Italian adult students here who do find some of the differences difficult, but in general their use of this compound tense is very similar to BE. One big difference in Spanish is that they use the present simple (I live) where English would use "I have lived/I have been living".


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## foxfirebrand

San said:
			
		

> Latinoamerican people speak certainly a Romance language, the Spanish, and believe me that their tendency to use past simple when they speak their mother tongue is even bigger than in the AE case. Do they sound as Europeans? It would be difficult, but any way, the very fact is that I've found the usage of the present perfect in my mother tongue (Castillian Spanish) closer to BE than to American Spanish.


This is interesting, and something I hadn't considered-- that the difference between AE and the European Romance languages is also reflected in the latinoamerican variant.

I reread my posts and found plenty of caveats to the effect that I speak about AE, not all the English-speaking world.  And yes, BE is arguably a European language, and does have much in common with the "non-AE" languages I was talking about.

Of course each of our ways of using the present perfect sounds "wrong" to the others, that's why they call them "foreign" languages I guess.
.
.


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