# bu kişilere ... denilmekte



## sufler

Merhaba.
I need help with translating this sentence:


_İşte, tüm bu sorunlara, psikolojik danışma ve rehberlik programlarından mezun olan psikolojik danışmanlar (ki Milli Eğitim Bakanlığı´nda bu kişilere, öğretmenlik haklarından yararlansınlar diye, rehber öğretmen denilmekte) yardımcı olabilirler.

_
Actually my main problem is the part in brackets, because the rest is, I suppose:
_So, psychological guides (...) who graduated from the Psychological Counselling and Guidance programs can help with all these problems._

The phrase in brackets I understand only partically, but I can´t put it all together: _who are called "guidance counselors" in the National Ministry of Education,_ _so that they benefited from the teacher´s rights, to these persons _

That´s a very non-sense; I don´t understand who are the "these persons" mentioned in the text. Are they the guides or the students whom they help?


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## shafaq

(so that these persons are called as "guidance teacher" in order they take advantages of teachers' beneficiaries).
 bu kişilere ... denilmekte=these persons are called/defined as ...


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## sufler

Ok, so all these words marked in orange refer to the same person - "psychological counsellors", don't they?
*...psikolojik danışmanlar (ki Milli Eğitim Bakanlığı´nda bu kişilere, öğretmenlik haklarından yararlansınlar diye, rehber öğretmen denilmekte)

*If so, it looks like the construction "_ki Milli Eğitim Bakanlığı´nda bu kişiler_" was used to mean "who are defined in the National Ministry of Education (as)"...
But why is the additional object "bu kişiler" neccessary? Can't you say just* ki + Dat. -ye = kiye *_(to which)_??

Before I've seen examples of nouns ending with suffix *-kilere*, but in fact I've never seen *-kiye* before... Is this really incorrect?


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## Rallino

I understood your problem.
This construction is the _Indo-European_ style relative clause, and, in the relative clause part of the sentence you need to use a demonstrative pronoun/adjective to complement it. Especially if it's not in nominative.
Ex: _Bu kurumda *ö*__*ğrenciler*,* ki* *bunlara* müşteriler de diyebiliriz,_ _öğretmenlerden daha üst bir statüdelerdir._



> Before I've seen examples of nouns ending with suffix *-kilere*, but in fact I've never seen *-kiye* before... Is this really incorrect?


Nope, you can't. The relative pronoun _ki_ can't take any suffixes.

You're talking about the suffix -ki, which is completely different: _Benimki, Evdeki _etc.


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## sufler

Well, I see. Thank you.
But I've also seen an example like: _Oran, ki sen bugün gördün, benim en iyi arkadaşım. 
_So, in this sentence isn't it neccessary to say _Oran, ki *onu *sen bugün gördün, benim en iyi arkadaşım. _?

When the object which "ki" refers to is in the Accusative case, can "ki" stand alone with no demonstrative pronoun?


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## Rallino

They sound ok both ways. I think that it depends on how complex the sentence is. If it is too long and wordy, we use the pronoun to simplify things for the reader.


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## murattug

sufler said:


> But why is the additional object "bu kişiler" neccessary? Can't you say just* ki + Dat. -ye = kiye *_(to which)_??
> 
> Before I've seen examples of nouns ending with suffix *-kilere*, but in fact I've never seen *-kiye* before... Is this really incorrect?



an example:

a hotel manager said (to detectives): Bugünkü müşteri listesi elinizde, dününki*n*e de bakmak ister misiniz?
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