# One may hope



## raf0708

Que signifie cette expression ?
Exemple :

Indeed, reports from farther out indicate that Human intergalactic colony ships are already headed out into the Endless Deeps. These reports are not verified--but the most virile colonies are always a long way from the most populous centers. One may hope.


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## Micia93

simplement : "on peut l'espérer" ?


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## Zsanna

C'est sûr que cela veut dire cela mais à mon avis la difficulté est de savoir à quoi la phrase fait référence. Apparamment pas aux deux phrases précédentes recopiées ici mais à qqch plus avant peut-être...


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## exiled scot

je dirai "on pourrait l'espérer"


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## raf0708

Voici le paragraphe entier : 

For surmount it (it=the human crisis) we have. Our race could now lose 50 planets, close ranks and move on. Our gallant women could replace the casualties in a single generation. Not that it appears likely that this will happen; thus far we have encountered no race as mean, as nasty, as deadly as our own. A conservative extrapolation indicates that we will reach in numerous that prepostorous number given earlier in a few more generations--and move out of this Galaxy into others before we finish settling this one. Indeed, reports from farther out indicate that Human intergalactic colony ships are already headed out into the Endless Deeps. These reports are not verified--but the most virile colonies are always a long way from the most populous centers. One may hope. 

Peut-être que "one may hope" renvoie ici à la crise. On peut espérer qu'elle soit résolue ?
Qu'en pensez-vous ?
Merci d'avance !!!


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## Micia93

cela paraît très logique
on peut dire aussi : "on peut toujours espérer", voire "*l'*espérer"


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## raf0708

Micia93 said:


> cela paraît très logique
> on peut dire aussi : "on peut toujours espérer", voire "*l'*espérer"


 
Merci !
Ce qui m'a perturbé, c'est : le "but" dans la dernière phrase. C'est plutôt une explication (à traduire par "car les colonies...", non?)
Voci ma traduction du passage : 

Car la crise fut résolue. Notre espèce pourrait aujourd’hui perdre cinquante planètes sans ciller. Notre brave gent féminine reconstituerait les pertes en une seule génération. Non pas qu’il faille envisager une telle hypothèse ; à ce jour, nous n’avons rencontré d’espèce plus féroce, plus barbare et plus cruelle que la nôtre. Des extrapolations modérées indiquent que le nombre grotesque mentionné tout à l’heure sera atteint dans quelques générations et que nous partirons vers d’autres galaxies avant d’achever notre installation dans celle-ci. D’ailleurs, des rapports en provenance de zones reculées signalent déjà la présence de vaisseaux coloniaux intergalactiques humains en direction des Grands Abysses. Ces rapports ne sont pas confirmés – les colonies les plus actives sont toujours positionnées très loin devant, à de grandes distances des derniers grands centres urbains. En tout cas, on peut l’espérer.


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## Zsanna

Mais si on a surmonté les difficultés pourquoi (et quoi) faut-il espérer...? (S'il n'y a pas de doute de l'avenir...) 
Mais je ne veux pas être difficile... 

Oui, le "but" sert à l'explication (= but it is because).


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## raf0708

Zsanna said:


> Mais si on a surmonté les difficultés pourquoi (et quoi) faut-il espérer...? (S'il n'y a pas de doute de l'avenir...)
> Mais je ne veux pas être difficile...
> 
> Oui, le "but" sert à l'explication (= but it is because).


 
Peut-être il fait comme un avocat. Il donne des arguments pour démontrer que la crise est résolue, mais en même temps, ceux-ci ne sont pas sûrs à 100%, car l'avenir, personne ne le connaît vraiment. Alors, il veut dire, "oui, normalement la crise elle est résolue = "one may hope it is". 

Non ?


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## Zsanna

Cette idée de l'avocat me plait... : même si on avait des problèmes comme ..., il y a aussi des solutions (telles que...) - donc on peut être optimistic. 

Ce que je trouve un peu ambigu c'est la description de notre espèce (féroce, etc.) - parce que ceci pourrait être une critique et si c'était le cas, l'optimisme n'est pas vraiment justifié...


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## Embonpoint

I understand "one may hope" here to summarize the whole paragraph. "One may hope" for a positive result in general in repopulating the human race, based on *everything* which was said in the paragraph above. Perhaps something like, "On peut toujours espérer."

As for the "but," it isn't fully clear even to a native speaker. However, I read it as "These reports aren't confirmed but if they are true they are of particular interest because the furthest-out colonies are often the most virile."

The sentence may not be clear grammatically, but this kind of construction is common in spoken English. For example, "I don't know if it's true that the Pope is coming, but a lot of people would love it if he did."


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## raf0708

Embonpoint said:


> I understand "one may hope" here to summarize the whole paragraph. "One may hope" for a positive result in general in repopulating the human race, based on *everything* which was said in the paragraph above. Perhaps something like, "On peut toujours espérer."
> 
> As for the "but," it isn't fully clear even to a native speaker. However, I read it as "These reports aren't confirmed but if they are true they are of particular interest because the furthest-out colonies are often the most virile."
> 
> The sentence may not be clear grammatically, but this kind of construction is common in spoken English. For example, "I don't know if it's true that the Pope is coming, but a lot of people would love it if he did."


 
I thought the reports were not confirmed because the most virile colonies are precisely those who go far away. And since they are so far from the last popoulus centers, they can't be confirmed by these. No ?


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## Embonpoint

raf0708 said:


> I thought the reports were not confirmed because the most virile colonies are precisely those who go far away. And since they are so far from the last popoulus centers, they can't be confirmed by these. No ?





Ah, yes on a second reading you may be partly right. But I still don't think "car" makes sense here.  I expect he means “These reports are not verified, but it would make sense given that we know that the most virile colonies are far away from the populous centers.” 

I’m thinking he means that the unverified reports could well be true, because the outlying areas from which they came are most likely to have virile colonies ie. those which want to spread. I'm guessing the implication is that virile colonies have young people to spare, or perhaps they are even outgrowing their own planet.

I still think “One may hope” here is a general sentence refering to the whole paragraph. It could mean that he hopes that it’s true that ships are headed out, but I read it more generally.


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## Embonpoint

p.s. The use of "but" I'm thinking of here is similar to, "We don't have proof that he committed the crime, but the knife was found in his car."

As in, there's no proof but it makes a lot of sense that it could be true.


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## piloulac

Ces rapports ne sont pas confirmés  (du fait de la grande distance séparant les colonies les plus reculées de nos centres urbains). Mais, on peut espérer que leurs conclusions sont fondées.


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## Zsanna

Embonpoint, are you sure? And about which version? 

I maintain my hunch about that_ but_... and agree with piloulac.


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## Embonpoint

I am nearly certain that the 'but' here is not "car" or "du fait de."  If that was the intention the English would have used the word "since" or "because." 

The "one may hope" sentence is vague, so no, I cannot be sure. It could be referring either the the paragraph as a whole or the last sentence. My gut is he means the paragraph as a whole, but no one can ever know what he means without asking him and since he died 20 years ago, that's not possible!


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## raf0708

Could it be that this "one may hope" which ends the paragraph refers to the first line of the next, which is :
"At best, history is hard to grasp; at worst, it is a lifless collection of questionable records.

In other words : "one may hope that the crisis is over (possibly not) because with all that human migration (to so many distant planets and so on), history has become hard to grasp"
What would you say of that ? (exciting thread, isn't it ?)


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## Embonpoint

raf0708 said:


> Could it be that this "one may hope" which ends the paragraph refers to the first line of the next, which is :
> "At best, history is hard to grasp; at worst, it is a lifless collection of questionable records.
> 
> In other words : "one may hope that the crisis is over (possibly not) because with all that human migration (to so many distant planets and so on), history has become hard to grasp"
> What would you say of that ? (exciting thread, isn't it ?)



No. If "one may hope" is in the preceding paragraph, it will always refer either to the last line of that paragraph *or* to the entire preceding paragraph.

Now I want to read Methuselah's Children. I love science fiction but have never been a big fan of Heinlein, in part because, well, he has great ideas but is not a great writer.


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## raf0708

Embonpoint said:


> No. If "one may hope" is in the preceding paragraph, it will always refer either to the last line of that paragraph *or* to the entire preceding paragraph.
> 
> Now I want to read Methuselah's Children. I love science fiction but have never been a big fan of Heinlein, in part because, well, he has great ideas but is not a great writer.


 
Many thanks ! That's what I now believe too (about "one may hope" not the Heinlein's writing talent !) 
This one is entitled "Time Enough for Love". (Not available in french so far, well as far as I know...I'm busy on that.)


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## raf0708

piloulac said:


> Ces rapports ne sont pas confirmés (du fait de la grande distance séparant les colonies les plus reculées de nos centres urbains). Mais, on peut espérer que leurs conclusions sont fondées.


Merci pour la réponse ! Il est en effet probable qu'il se réfère à la dernière phrase. Mais je ne comprends toujours pas pourquoi il faudrait _espérer_ que les conclusions soient fondées. J'aurais mieux compris : Mais on peut _penser_ que leurs conclusions sont fondées. 

Ou alors, il parle quand lême de la crise (qu'il espère résolue...)
Non ?


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## piloulac

Embonpoint said:


> Now I want to read Methuselah's Children. I love science fiction but have never been a big fan of Heinlein, in part because, well, he has great ideas but is not a great writer.


 
Yes, I'm convinced too !!!
And, I'm going to buy this book.

Thanks Embonpoint. Thanks Raf.

Je connais mal les valeurs du -but- anglais.
En français, cependant, la conjonction -mais- sert à :
a) opposition : -Il est paresseux mais il est intelligent.
b) rechérissement : Mais comme tu es beau ce matin.
d) causalité : Il fait froid certes mais c'est l'hiver.

Dans ce dernier cas, il n'y a évidemment pas opposition entre froid et hiver. L'opposition réside, en fait entre le fait que c'est l'hiver et le fait supposé ou sous-entendu que tu t'étonnes du froid.
C'est dans ce cas que -mais- a la valeur "car" ou "du fait".

Raf propose "_Il est en effet probable qu'il se réfère à la dernière phrase. Mais je ne comprends toujours pas pourquoi il faudrait espérer que les conclusions soient fondées."_

Selon moi, il est logique d'espérer que ces rapports non confirmés, s'avèrent. En effet, si tel était le cas, l'humanité aurait un avenir considérable puisqu'elle aurait cette possibilité confirmée de coloniser un nouvel espace apparemment incommensurable.


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## raf0708

piloulac said:


> Yes, I'm convinced too !!!
> And, I'm going to buy this book.


I'm sure you'll love it. But mind the title. This one is "Time Enough for Love." (about 600 pages of pleasure...)


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## Embonpoint

Pilouac, on peut dire ça aussi, mais c'est assez rare sans autre qualification.  Je peux dire, "it's cold but it's winter," mais vraiment ce n'est pas clair pour un anglophone. On dirait plutot "It's cold, but, after all, it's winter." ou "It's cold, but then again, it's winter." 

Je ne comprends pas du tout comme ça le texte de Heinlein. Pour moi, c'est plutot l'opposition entre la manque de preuve et son espoir que, en effect, les rapports sont vrais. 

Mais je ne nie pas que votre interpretation est possible! 

p.s. The first book was Methusaleh's Children, right? So if you want to start at the beginning that is the one?


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## JeanDeSponde

> Indeed, reports from farther out indicate that Human intergalactic colony ships are already headed out into the Endless Deeps. These reports are not verified-


Il semblerait que les colons humains soit déjà parvenus dans les _Endless Deeps_. Mais rien de certain.


> -but the most virile colonies are always a long way from the most populous centers.


Cela dit, les colons les plus aventureux, les plus entreprenants sont toujours ceux qui sont les plus éloignés des grands centres _[observation qui tendrait à accréditer les rapports non avérés, puisque les colons en question sont très loin de la Terre et donc sont entreprenants]_.


> One may hope


On peut espérer [que cette observation (_but the most virile..._) soit vraie, et s'applique dans ce cas].

_En tout cas on peut l'espérer_ [Raf] me paraît donc très bien.


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## Embonpoint

JeanDeSponde said:


> Il semblerait que les colons humains soit déjà parvenus dans les _Endless Deeps_. Mais rien de certain.
> 
> Cela dit, les colons les plus aventureux, les plus entreprenants sont toujours ceux qui sont les plus éloignés des grands centres _[observation qui tendrait à accréditer les rapports non avérés, puisque les colons en question sont très loin de la Terre et donc sont entreprenants]_.



Oui! C'est exactement comme ça que je comprends le texte.


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## raf0708

It's best to sleep over it!
I think I got the real meaning of that expression in this particular context.
So, here is my reasoning : 
Overpopulation was the problem, the crisis which began on Earth and was solved through the Diaspora. 
But, since the Human race keep growing fast each places it goes to, in order to avoid overpopulation again, some of them (the most virile colonies) leave these "most popoulus centers" to settle on wild planets. So, "virile" here, doesnt' mean "adventurous" but must be read literaly, that is those guys who make lots of children... and considered as a potential problem as they can cause overpopulation. So, to me, "One may hope." here means that it is desirable that those virile colonies always keep far from the most popoulus centers otherwhile these latter centers would soon become overpopulated (that is in deep sh... in other words in the crisis. Besides such a situation would mean that the crisis has yet to be solved !)


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## Embonpoint

raf0708 said:


> It's best to sleep over it!
> I think I got the real meaning of that expression in this particular context.
> So, here is my reasoning :
> Overpopulation was the problem, the crisis which began on Earth and was solved through the Diaspora.
> But, since the Human race keep growing fast each places it goes to, in order to avoid overpopulation again, some of them (the most virile colonies) leave these "most popoulus centers" to settle on wild planets. So, "virile" here, doesnt' mean "adventurous" but must be read literaly, that is those guys who make lots of children... and considered as a potential problem as they can cause overpopulation. So, to me, "One may hope." here means that it is desirable that those virile colonies always keep far from the most popoulus centers otherwhile these latter centers would soon become overpopulated (that is in deep sh... in other words in the crisis. Besides such a situation would mean that the crisis has yet to be solved !)




Yes, virile absolutely means the guys who make lots of children.

As for your new interpretation of "one may hope" I think you are reading to much into it. He is hoping that the human population will recover from its problems and repopulate the universe. He may be referring narrowly to the last sentence, hoping the reports are true. Or he may be referring to the entire paragraph, as in “lose 50 planets, close ranks and move on... replace the casualties in a single generation etc.”

I cannot tell you if his ‘hope’ refers to the final sentence alone or the whole paragraph. But either way he is definitely hoping for the human race to replace its losses.

If it were me, I translate it as if it referred to the entire preceding paragraph. I view this last phrase as Heinlein’s attempt to sum up the whole paragraph. He’s not sure the human race will overcome, but odds look good and he’s hoping.


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## raf0708

Embonpoint said:


> He is hoping that the human population will recover from its problems and repopulate the universe. He may be referring narrowly to the last sentence, hoping the reports are true. Or he may be referring to the entire paragraph, as in “lose 50 planets, close ranks and move on... replace the casualties in a single generation etc.”


 
Thanks for you patience man !

In this paragraph, I can't decide if he is being ironic or not about how fast humans can repopulate anything. He describes humans as a mean, nasty, deadly race. Does he like the fact the humans can grow so fast ? He is being ambiguous, isn't he. For there is some kind of proudness in his words as well as some kind of conceit or vanity. Don't you think ? (We gonna make a full study of Heinlein's book here !  )


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## Embonpoint

raf0708 said:


> Thanks for you patience man !
> 
> In this paragraph, I can't decide if he is being ironic or not about how fast humans can repopulate anything. He describes humans as a mean, nasty, deadly race. Does he like the fact the humans can grow so fast ? He is being ambiguous, isn't he. For there is some kind of proudness in his words as well as some kind of conceit or vanity. Don't you think ? (We gonna make a full study of Heinlein's book here !  )



Yes! I read it as ambiguous. He's proud of the human race but is keenly aware of its faults.

I think he clearly does want the human race to repopulate and fully overcome the crisis.


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## JeanDeSponde

Embonpoint said:


> Yes, virile absolutely means the guys who make lots of children.


I may have been mistaken, but I rather read _virile_ in the following meaning given in the FreeDictionary:
_Characterized by energy and vigor; "a virile and ever stronger free society"; "a new and virile leadership"_
(I don't expect a country's Leader to be _the father of the nation_ in a genetical meaning...)
(And _colonies_ are said to be _virile_ - not colons, isn't it?)


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## raf0708

Embonpoint said:


> Yes, virile absolutely means the guys who make lots of children.
> 
> As for your new interpretation of "one may hope" I think you are reading to much into it. He is hoping that the human population will recover from its problems and repopulate the universe. He may be referring narrowly to the last sentence, hoping the reports are true. Or he may be referring to the entire paragraph, as in “lose 50 planets, close ranks and move on... replace the casualties in a single generation etc.”
> 
> I cannot tell you if his ‘hope’ refers to the final sentence alone or the whole paragraph. But either way he is definitely hoping for the human race to replace its losses.
> 
> If it were me, I translate it as if it referred to the entire preceding paragraph. I view this last phrase as Heinlein’s attempt to sum up the whole paragraph. He’s not sure the human race will overcome, but odds look good and he’s hoping.


 


JeanDeSponde said:


> I may have been mistaken, but I rather read _virile_ in the following meaning given in the FreeDictionary:
> _Characterized by energy and vigor; "a virile and ever stronger free society"; "a new and virile leadership"_
> (I don't expect a country's Leader to be _the father of the nation_ in a genetical meaning...)
> (And _colonies_ are said to be _virile_ - not colons, isn't it?)


 
All right JeanDeSponde, we can't deny it's possible indeed. But the book explains a bit further and how humains had grown a new blood in vitro and new therapies for, quoting : "_postponing old age, and for extending vigor, virility, and fertility_"

The Earth overpopulation came as a result of both fertily and long life. So the diaspora (out of Earth) was the only solution to solve the crisis. 

So "virile" in this context can easily be read literaly, though I can admit to a larger acception as well.


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## Embonpoint

JeanDeSponde said:


> I may have been mistaken, but I rather read _virile_ in the following meaning given in the FreeDictionary:
> _Characterized by energy and vigor; "a virile and ever stronger free society"; "a new and virile leadership"_
> (I don't expect a country's Leader to be _the father of the nation_ in a genetical meaning...)
> (And _colonies_ are said to be _virile_ - not colons, isn't it?)



It could mean this as well, but given the subject about reproduction, I interpreted it as likely to have children!

In fact the meanings are very similar and linked in the mind of an anglophone. Someone who is vigorous and energetic is likely to be someone who can have a lot of children and populate the race.


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## raf0708

raf0708 said:


> Indeed, reports from farther out indicate that Human intergalactic colony ships are already headed out into the Endless Deeps.


 
One last question :
Why is he using "Indeed" ? 
Would you infer from that that it was meant to be ?


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## Embonpoint

"Indeed" indicates that the sentence beginning "Reports from farther out indicate that ships are already headed out..." supports the assertion in the earlier sentence that humans will "move out of this Galaxy into others before we finish settling this one."

In French you might say something like,  "En effet, des rapports venant de loin..."


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## raf0708

I really appreciated all interventions in this thread.
I got a lot out of it, thanks you to all of you, and to you particularly, Embonpoint!


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