# 最快五月中旬



## fredisaking

"When will you come back to Cali?"
"最快五月中旬"

How do you say that in English? The nearest/closest date might be the middle of May? The soonest might be in the middle of May?


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## Mugi

I personally would say: By mid May, at the earliest.


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## BODYholic

fredisaking said:


> "When will you come back to Cali?"
> "最快五月中旬"
> 
> How do you say that in English? The nearest/closest date might be the middle of May? The soonest might be in the middle of May?



In Singapore, *旬* is not a common word and it is also not contemporary. Many from of our younger generation probably know what it means but can't give an exact definition.

This is the definition given by nciku - http://www.nciku.com/search/zh/detail/旬/1317351


> *1.*                                     noun                                                 [十日]                                              ten days
> _上旬_ the first ten days of the month


Colloquially, we usually drop the character *旬*, "最快五月中". Although less precise, it is understandable in most situations. Having said that, I do find *旬* appears in newspaper or TV news reporting.


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## char siu bao

I second Mugi -- almost. "mid-May, at the earliest" or "in mid-May, at the earliest" works for me, but the "by" seems out of place because "by" indicates a time cut-off, whereas mid-May is the time starting-point. Right?

Personally, in casual language, I think I would say "not before mid-May".


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## Tatzingo

char siu bao said:


> I second Mugi -- almost. "mid-May, at the earliest" or "in mid-May, at the earliest" works for me, but the "by" seems out of place because "by" indicates a time cut-off, whereas mid-May is the time starting-point. Right?
> 
> Personally, in casual language, I think I would say "not before mid-May".



I would also go with "Not before mid-May"


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## samanthalee

fredisaking said:


> "When will you come back to Cali?"
> "最快五月中旬"
> 
> How do you say that in English? The nearest/closest date might be the middle of May? The soonest might be in the middle of May?



I agree with char siu bao, I'll also say "Not before mid-May".




BODYholic said:


> In Singapore, *旬* is not a common word and it is also not contemporary. Many from of our younger generation probably know what it means but can't give an exact definition.



Oh? I must be moving in different circles. LOL. My friends and I use 上旬，中旬，下旬 all the time. It's our *older* generation that doesn't use 旬 and would say 月头，月中，月底...that's exactly opposite of what you've observed, eh? Interesting..


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## BODYholic

samanthalee said:


> It's our *older* generation that doesn't use 旬 and would say 月头，月中，月底...that's exactly opposite of what you've observed, eh? Interesting..



Yes, it is interesting indeed that I've never once heard a young person says 旬.

In fact, it is very colloquial for Singaporeans, of all ages, to say 月中 and 月底.  But I would replace 月头 by 月初.  I believe your older generation is  probably Cantonese (or maybe, Teochiew) and hence the direct translation.

For clarification, when I said older generation, I really mean the generation that started Singapore. Perhaps those who migrated from China (60s) or even those who graduated from 南大 (70s). The point that I am trying to say is, 旬 is not a commoner word. In Singapore, one probably has to go through some formal education to recognize this word.

Hope this clears your doubt.


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## Mugi

Hmm. "In mid-May, at the earliest" sounds strange to my Kiwi ears. If you don't add "at the earliest", then it sounds okay. Otherwise "Mid-May, at the earliest" definitely works, as does "Not before mid-May", and so are probably the best options. And from a logical point of view, I agree that "By mid-May" is strange, but using "by" in conjunction with "at the earliest" is the most natural reply for me...
Working with people from the US, UK, India and Australia, I have discovered that while there is quite a high degree of homogeneity in preposition usage among the commonwealth countries, there is significant variation among American speakers, so maybe this is a dialect difference.


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## BODYholic

fredisaking said:


> "When will you come back to Cali?"
> "最快五月中旬"
> 
> How do you say that in English? The nearest/closest date might be the middle of May? The soonest might be in the middle of May?



In your question, there are essentially 2 parts that need to be carefully addressed. I broke them down in to "最快" and "五月中旬".

"最快" - is time-limiting. I think "by" does a good job here.
 "五月中旬" - This is tricky because there isn't an English equivalent. In Chinese, this means a period of time from 11th May -> 20th May (10 days, and inclusive of both mentioned dates). It is a wide spectrum here. Whereas, in English, mid-May has a very narrow spectrum. People usually regards it as 15th May perhaps gives and takes 1 or 2 days from that. I hardly believe any native English speakers will term 20th of May as mid-May. Would you?

I do not have any better suggestions. I just thought that ' .... by mid-May' serves fine. Example, "I will return those books to you by mid-May". Notice that 'mid-May' is indefinite, hence it is not a cut-off. I could return  them on the 16th May and still honor my words. But to assume 20th May as mid-May (it is still "中旬" in Chinese). Well, It is not wrong but it's kind of far-fetched to me. 

In English, when I have a better grasp of time, I would say "I will return those books to you in the first week of May.".


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## char siu bao

Unfortunately, I don't agree that "in English, mid-May has a very narrow spectrum."  I consider May 20th as mid-May.  As well as May 11th.  It's a very flexible thing, might depend on the person or the situation, but I actually think "beginning of May," "middle of May/mid-May" and "end of May" correspond quite well to the 上旬， 中旬， 下旬。 

I also can't agree with your analysis:


> "最快" - is time-limiting. I think "by" does a good job here.


最快is time-limiting, yes, because it establishes the earliest possible point that something will happen.
"By" is the opposite.  It establishes the latest possible point that something will happen.

Example:
I will return those books to you by the first week of May.

Analysis:
I can return those books to you on April 1, April 10, April 17, etc. etc.  The latest possible day, in my mind, would be May 10.  If they are returned after May 10, then I have broken my word to return them by the first week of May.

Example:
I will return those books to you in mid-May, at the earliest.

Analysis:
I will not return the books in April.  I will not return them on May 1-9.  I might return them on May 10, or May 20, or June 20, or July 20, etc.

In other words：
"When will you come back to Cali?"
"最快五月中旬"
versus
"最晚五月中旬"


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## BODYholic

char siu bao said:


> Unfortunately, I don't agree that "in English, mid-May has a very narrow spectrum."  I consider May 20th as mid-May.  As well as May 11th.  It's a very flexible thing, might depend on the person or the situation, but I actually think "beginning of May," "middle of May/mid-May" and "end of May" correspond quite well to the 上旬， 中旬， 下旬。


Too bad, I can't come to term with you equating 上，中，下旬 as beginning, mid and end of month.
The problem lies with the fact that 旬 has a precise and clear-cut definition, whereas those cited English words are, at best, vague and not to mention, subjective. Since it is subjective, I can't possibly say you are wrong. 



char siu bao said:


> .
> "By" is the opposite.  It establishes the latest possible point that something will happen.


Admittedly, I did not translate the "快" in "最快五月中旬". I shall then rewrite the sentence.

I will return those books to you, earliest, by the first week of May. Or,
The earliest that I could possibly return those books to you is by _xxxxx_.

"By" is still time-limiting, it limits the time frame to a defined 7 days in the above example. And whether it is setting the upper or lower limits,  it really boils down to how you word it.

Belated Good Friday to you.


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## samanthalee

BODYholic said:


> I will return those books to you, earliest, by the first week of May. Or,
> The earliest that I could possibly return those books to you is by _xxxxx_.



This actually sounds like Singlish to me...

I think the preposition to be used in your sentence is "in" or none at all.
i.e.  
1) I will return those books to you, earliest, in the first week of May.
2) The earliest that I could possibly return those books to you is _xxxxx_.


"By" means "before" or "not later than". It is indeed time-limiting, but it can_ only_ be used when talking about a "deadline".


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## BODYholic

samanthalee said:


> "By" means "before" or "not later than". It is indeed time-limiting, but it can_ only_ be used when talking about a "deadline".



We are all talking about deadline here. But I think you are referring to a certain definite deadlines (e.g. "1st of Jan" or "4pm today" & etc) whereas mine are indefinite (e.g. " first week of May", "end of this year" & etc).

However, I think you, as well as CSB, are right. "In" works better for a range of dates. Also, for "By" to function as time-limiting, it may need a definite/exact deadline. Is this right?

So, the sentence should be written (and as corrected by Samanthalee) as such ...
1) I will return those books to you, earliest, in mid-May.
2) The earliest that I could possibly return those books to you is in mid-May.


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## BODYholic

samanthalee said:


> "By" means "before" or "not later than". It is indeed time-limiting, but it can_ only_ be used when talking about a "deadline".



samanthalee,
I hate to bring this up again. I just found out that while it indeed doesn't sound idiomatic to say "by the first week of May", "by mid-May" seems pretty common among native English speakers. At least, that's what Google suggested to me.

What's your opinion on this?
"I will return those books to you, earliest, *by *mid-May"
"The earliest that I could possibly return those books to you is *by* mid-May"
PS: As discussed earlier, mid-May is fuzzy and indefinite.


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## samanthalee

BODYholic said:


> samanthalee,
> I hate to bring this up again. I just found out that while it indeed doesn't sound idiomatic to say "by the first week of May", "by mid-May" seems pretty common among native English speakers. At least, that's what Google suggested to me.



"By the first week of May" and "by mid-May" are both correct English. They mean "no later than first week of May" and "no later than mid-May" respectively.

I didn't mean that they sound Singlish. I meant the way you use it sound Singlish.



BODYholic said:


> What's your opinion on this?
> "I will return those books to you, earliest, *by* mid-May"
> "The earliest that I could possibly return those books to you is *by* mid-May"
> PS: As discussed earlier, mid-May is fuzzy and indefinite.



If you mean "won't be earlier than mid-May":
"I will return those books to you, *earliest*, by *in* mid-May"
"The *earliest* that I could return those books to you is by *in* mid-May"

If you mean "won't be later than mid-May":
"I will return those books to you, earliest, *by* mid-May"
"The earliest *latest* that I would return those books to you is by *in* mid-May"

Putting "latest" and "by" together is logically ok, but is awkward because it's a double-emphasis...both "latest" and "by" mean the same thing. Putting "earliest" and "by" together is definitely logically wrong.



BODYholic said:


> We are all talking about deadline here. But I think you are referring to a certain definite deadlines (e.g. "1st of Jan" or "4pm today" & etc) whereas mine are indefinite (e.g. " first week of May", "end of this year" & etc).



"Deadline"refers to "the last possible time to get things done". When we say "the deadline for the class assignment is first week of May", that means we must hand in the assignment by first week of May, and no later.


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## Mugi

samanthalee said:


> This actually sounds like Singlish to me...
> 
> I think the preposition to be used in your sentence is "in" or none at all.
> i.e.
> 1) I will return those books to you, earliest, in the first week of May.
> 2) The earliest that I could possibly return those books to you is _xxxxx_.
> 
> 
> "By" means "before" or "not later than". It is indeed time-limiting, but it can_ only_ be used when talking about a "deadline".


 
Actually, despite further "corrections" in #15 of "by" to "in", it is in fact "in" that would seem to be Singlish in this case.

My American, British, and Australian colleagues (only 1 of each, so admittedly not a big sample) all agree with me (NZ) that in this structure, you need to use "by", although a native English speaker would probably rephrase the sentence as: I will return those books to you, at (the) earliest, by the end of the first week of May.

I agree that using "earliest" and "by" together doesn't seem logical, and I'm sure presrciptive grammarians would tell us you can't say that, but the reality is that many (if not most?) native English speakers do use that construction and never think twice about it.


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## samanthalee

Mugi said:


> Actually, despite further "corrections" in #15 of "by" to "in", it is in fact "in" that would seem to be Singlish in this case.
> 
> My American, British, and Australian colleagues (only 1 of each, so admittedly not a big sample) all agree with me (NZ) that in this structure, you need to use "by", although a native English speaker would probably rephrase the sentence as: I will return those books to you, at (the) earliest, by the end of the first week of May.



You mean "by" doesn't have to mean "no later than"?


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## BODYholic

samanthalee said:


> "Deadline"refers to "the last possible time to get things done". When we say "the deadline for the class assignment is first week of May", that means we must hand in the assignment *by first week of May*, and no later.



This is exactly the spot that you confused me. And you are using "by" the first week of May.

Ok let's re-arrange the thought. I must admit I am an engineering folk and I tend to approach problem mathematically.

The problem : "最快五月中旬"

The thread-starter defines these facts:
Upper limit: 最快 (i.e. The earliest possible dates)
Deadline for this upper limit: 五月中旬 (mid-May. i.e. 15/5 + and- a few days)
No lower limit (最迟) and its deadline was given.

My suggestion is,
"The earliest possible dates for _<whatever actions>_ is by mid-May.".
Remarks:
1. 'earliest' serves the purpose of defining the upper limit. Because, on some predictable events, I may have another set of condition (but was not mentioned) to define the lower limit.
2. 'by' is still served as 'no later than *or equal to*' for the upper limit.

Ideally the whole picture should paint this way ...
"The earliest possible dates for _<whatever actions>_ is by mid-May. In the event that I am being run down by a train, I will _<whatever actions>_ by the end of next year!". " ..最快在五月中旬 <whatever actions>. 如果 <unfortunate event>,  我只有在明年底才能<whatever actions>"
 
PS:
samanthalee,
You are overly concerned with the definition given by the dictionary. "By" is not exactly "not later than". If I set the deadline at 4pm today, and the task is completed _*at*_ 4pm on the same day. It is still considered as meeting the deadline. But by your definition, "not later than 4pm" implies missing the deadline!
Also, instead of a microscopic view of this problem raised by fredisaking. Try taking a step back and have a bird's eyes view of where he/she is coming from.


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## lawrence_music

BODYholic said:


> In Singapore, *旬* is not a common word and it is also not contemporary. Many from of our younger generation probably know what it means but can't give an exact definition.
> 
> This is the definition given by nciku - http://www.nciku.com/search/zh/detail/旬/1317351
> Colloquially, we usually drop the character *旬*, "最快五月中". Although less precise, it is understandable in most situations. Having said that, I do find *旬* appears in newspaper or TV news reporting.



I don't totally agree with you. I think 旬 is a common word in China.  '最快五月中' without 旬 would make me feel a bit strange. Therefore, it is not a standard phrase.


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## Mugi

samanthalee said:


> You mean "by" doesn't have to mean "no later than"?


In a sense, yes. Logically, "by" should mean "no later than", but in actual usage many native English speakers "ignore" the logic (think of it as another example like "I ain't got no money").


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## BODYholic

lawrence_music said:


> I think 旬 is a common word *in China*.


My exact sentiment.


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## BODYholic

BODYholic said:


> "The earliest possible dates for _<whatever actions>_ is by mid-May. In the event that I am being run down *over* by a train, I will _<whatever actions>_ by the end of next year!". " ..最快在五月中旬 <whatever actions>. 如果 <unfortunate event>,  我只有在明年底才能<whatever actions>"



Sorry, I couldn't edit my previous post.


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## samanthalee

BODYholic said:


> If I set the deadline at 4pm today, and the task is completed _*at*_ 4pm on the same day. It is still considered as meeting the deadline. But by your definition, "not later than 4pm" implies missing the deadline!



Glad to know you are in engineering field, as I am, so we should be able to understand each other when arguing a point. 

By my definition, completed at 4pm is not missing the deadline. If we want to get "mathematical" about it, "*not later than* 4pm" is different from "*earlier than* 4pm". "Not greater than 4" means anything "lesser than or equal to 4" is acceptable. Similarly, "not later than 4pm" means anything "earlier than or equal to 4pm" is acceptable.

Anyway, this argument is now moot, as Mugi has told us that "by" doesn't have to mean "no later". Which means the sentences you gave were quite correct.


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## Forero

Mugi said:


> Hmm. "In mid-May, at the earliest" sounds strange to my Kiwi ears. If you don't add "at the earliest", then it sounds okay. Otherwise "Mid-May, at the earliest" definitely works, as does "Not before mid-May", and so are probably the best options. And from a logical point of view, I agree that "By mid-May" is strange, but using "by" in conjunction with "at the earliest" is the most natural reply for me...
> Working with people from the US, UK, India and Australia, I have discovered that while there is quite a high degree of homogeneity in preposition usage among the commonwealth countries, there is significant variation among American speakers, so maybe this is a dialect difference.


"By mid May, at the earliest" sounds strange to me.  "By mid May" works with "at the latest" but not with "at the earliest."  I agree that "mid May, at the earliest" and "not before mid May" are probably the best options.


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