# ż and ź



## Jana337

Cześć, 

The distinction between ż and ź is driving me crazy. I don't even dream of pronouncing them correctly  but I would really love to know when to write which. 

Other than learning the vocabulary by rote, are there any ways to accomplish it? Any regularities like "ż can never be followed by ..."?

To jest bardzo trudne! Czy ktoś wie, jak to zrobić?

Dziękuję!

Rozdíl mezi ż and ź mě přivádí k šílenství. Any se mi nezdá o tom, že bych je mohla někdy vyslovovat správně , ale ráda bych věděla, kdy se které píše.

Pomineme-li učení slovní zásoby nazpaměť, znáte nějaký způsob, jak to zvládnout? Nějaké zákonitosti typu "po ż nemůže nikdy následovat ..."?

Je to velmi těžné. Ví někdo, jak to udělat?

Děkuji,
 
Jana


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## GoranBcn

Ahoj Jano,

As far as I know *ź* is phonetically softer than *ż*. That means that it's pronounced with the tongue and mouth oriented toward the hard palate just behind the dental ridge.

*ż* is pronounced like *s* in pleasure approximately
*ź* is pronounced like *z* in azure approximately

The letters *ź* and *zi*- represent the same sound. The spelling *zi*- is used before a vowel, except that only *z* is written before *i*. So *z* before *i* is pronounced *ź*.

I just want to mention that *ż* and *rz* are also the same sound:

może = he can
morze = sea

Anyway, the difference between *ż/rz* and *ź* are the same as between *sz* and *ś*, *cz* and *ć*, *dż* and *dź*.

Well a native speaker can explain it better. 

Goran


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## Little_Me

Goran is right, but I guess there's no strict rules about it, 'cause you can't forget that these are two different letters, only sounding a bit alike! It's not the same question as: when you write "ż" or "rz" or "ó" or "u"! "Ż" sounds not the same as "ź", so you use them in diffeent words without strict rules!

But I think we may say that if "ź" sounds definitely softer than "ż" it's more probable to have it before soft consonants, especially "n" (jaźń, później, kaźń, kuźnia etc.), but I guess it's not relevant when "ź" is the first letter (źle, źródło, źrebię, źdźbło)... 
But definitely there is a rule that if they are the first letters, "ż" can and "ź" cannot be followed by a vowel! If you need to have a vowel after "ź" you change it into "zi":
- zielony ( not źelony!), ziołowy (not źołowy!), ziemia (not źemia!)...
And - żaba, żuraw, żal, żaden, żałoba...

Hmm, that's all I can think of!
Pozdrawiam ciepło


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## beclija

I think if you cannot hear the difference between "ż" and "ź", the rule about one not being followed by a vowel does not help so much, you might just keep wondering wether to write żelony or zielony as the "i" is not actually pronounced as such.

I don't find them too hard... maybe because I'm used to č:ć and dž:đ, so I can extrapose that difference on other consonants.

Do you never have "ż" before soft consonants like ń or is it just a tendency?


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## Marga H

Goran's explanation is the best thing to do ,so I can only add some small comments on the topic.If letter ć is at the end of the word it often change into ci if you are doing the declination.For exemple:
chęć(wish,desire)
nie mam chęci (I don't feel like)
It is the same thing with ś->si and zi(I can't make "kreska" above z)
BTW I think more problems you can have to distinguish rz and ż because they have the same pronounciation,A small tip can give a fact that the words with rz often change into r and the words with ż change into g.For exemple:
morze(sea)->morski(adj)
on może(he can)->ja mogę(I can)
Pozdrowienia!


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## Anatoli

Jana337 said:


> Other than learning the vocabulary by rote, are there any ways to accomplish it? Any regularities like "ż can never be followed by ..."?


I think your question is NOT about pronunciation but about the usage, correct me if I am wrong? I know that you know some Russian Jana, so *ż* matches Russian* ж* or Czech *ž* but *ź* matches palatalised *з* (in front of softening letter - я, ю, ё, е, и) or *зь*. "ż" is never followed by "i", since it makes the consonant palatalised but ź can (then it loses its accent but retains pronunication) - *zie*mia.

"*rz*" (pronounced the same as *ż*)on the other hand matches Russian palatalised "р" (rzeka - река, w barze - в баре, etc) or "рь" (ślusarz - слесарь). You probably figured this out, it matches the Czech letter *ř*.


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## Jana337

Anatoli said:


> I think your question is NOT about pronunciation but about the usage, correct me if I am wrong? I know that you know some Russian Jana, so *ż* matches Russian* ж* or Czech *ž* but *ź* matches palatalised *з* (in front of softening letter - я, ю, ё, е, и) or *зь*. "ż" is never followed by "i", since it makes the consonant palatalised but ź can (then it loses its accent but) - *zie*mia.
> 
> "*rz*" (pronounced the same as *ż*)on the other hand matches Russian palatalised "р" (rzeka - река, w barze - в баре, etc) or "рь" (ślusarz - слесарь). You probably figured this out, it matches the Czech letter *ř*.


Anatoli, you saved my day! (Thanks for all other replies, too!) 

I am mumbling Polish words with *ż* and *ź*, and Russian words with *ж* and *зь, *and it works! 

Большое спасибо! 

Jana


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## Anatoli

Jana337 said:


> Anatoli, you saved my day! (Thanks for all other replies, too!)
> 
> I am mumbling Polish words with *ż* and *ź*, and Russian words with *ж* and *зь, *and it works!
> 
> Большое спасибо!
> 
> Jana


You're welcome, Jana 
Not that you need more clarification but interesting that if Belarusian were spelled with Łacinka, *ж* and *зь* would be *ż* and *ź* but pronounced like Russian, not Polish. In Czech you don't have a palatalised "z" but Polish letters with *ź* or *zi...* would match Czech words with "*z*" (often in front of e or i) and (probably) never *ż.
*
polski - čeština - русский:
ziemia - země - земл*я*, zima - zima - зим*а*, zielony - zelený - зел*ё*ный


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## Thomas1

I think Russian _зи _and _зь_ are more frontal in the respect of palatalization. I can even discern some difference between _ź _and_ zi_ when pronuncing some words. Anatoli can you tell any difference between the Russian counterparts, please?


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## Anatoli

Thomas1 said:


> I think Russian _зи _and _зь_ are more frontal in the respect of palatalization. I can even discern some difference between _ź _and_ zi_ when pronuncing some words. Anatoli can you tell any difference between the Russian counterparts, please?


There is no difference Thomas, just the position, _зи_ is followed by a vowel but _зь_ is not. "З" in во*зь*м_и_, ве*з*_и_ is pronounced the same, IMO. The tongue is positioned on the teeth (dental).

I thought there was no difference between _*ź* _and_ *zi*_ either_._ Is there? 
They are different from Polish, of course. зь is a palatalised z [z'] but ź is a palatalised *ż*, if I can describe it that way because it has the [ʒ] sound (as s in "mea*s*ure").

The Czech *ž* is pronounced as something between the Polish *ż* and *ź*.


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## Thomas1

Anatoli said:


> There is no difference Thomas, just the position, _зи_ is followed by a vowel but _зь_ is not. "З" in во*зь*м_и_, ве*з*_и_ is pronounced the same, IMO. The tongue is positioned on the teeth (dental).
> 
> I thought there was no difference between _*ź* _and_ *zi*_ either_._ Is there?
> They are different from Polish, of course. зь is a palatalised z [z'] but ź is a palatalised *ż*, if I can describe it that way because it has the [ʒ] sound (as s in "mea*s*ure").
> 
> The Czech *ž* is pronounced as something between the Polish *ż* and *ź*.


I thought that too. I checked that pronuncing various words with each of them and listening to people who enunciated them and I indeed noticed they (sometimes) are pronunced differently in a way that _zi_ is more frontal in its palatalization. The distinction is hardly recognizable and probably most people don't discern any difference as they simply don't pay attention but I'm almost convinced there sometimes is variation.


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## dihydrogen monoxide

What is the difference in pronunciation between
ź and ż in Polish?


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## robin74

dihydrogen monoxide said:


> What is the difference in pronunciation between ź and ż in Polish?


Roughly the same as between ć and č. Or ђ and џ.


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## dihydrogen monoxide

Do Polish dialects distinguish between these sounds or did they merge into one sound in these dialects?


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## Thomas1

dihydrogen monoxide said:


> Do Polish dialects distinguish between these sounds or did they merge into one sound in these dialects?


In my neck of the woods, and also in the parts of Poland I've been to, this distinciton is well observed by everyone.



Tom


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## Engedi

In some Polish dialects (eg. mazovian) where so called _mazurzenie_ exists, "ż" is pronounced as "z", but never as "ź". This phonetical process does not affect the pronunciation of "rz" which always sounds as "ż" [ʐ].
</SPAN>


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