# All Slavic languages: Indeclinable nouns



## phosphore

Hello everyone,

I was wondering how many nouns are there in various Slavic languages that fail to be identified with one of the noun declensions?

In Serbian (and Croatian, as far as I know) those are systematically only feminine names that do not end in /a/: Britni, Elizabet, En, Šer, Širli, etc.

In Russian, however, there are many more indeclinable nouns: метро, радио and so on. How about other languages?


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## jazyk

I know кофе (kofe, "coffee") is indeclinable in Russian. On the other hand, rádio and metro, indeclinable in Russian, are declined in Czech just like any neuter noun in o.


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## Awwal12

The Russian language has quite difficult, complicated rules about cases when a noun is indeclinable. So I would better just give a list of samples:

Каберне, турне, биде, сомбреро, балеро, либидо; Ратко, Ющенко, Кобо, Токио, Скопье;  Антананариву, харакири, Коидзуми, Хельсинки, Абэ, Кобэ, Ханъю; Хелен, Элизабет; + all female surnames that are foreign or of foreign origin ("нет ни Джона Ричардсона, ни Элизабет Ричардсон; ни Милоша Младича, ни Милы Младич"). I hope that I haven't forgot some group.


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## sokol

In Slovene foreign words usually are integrated into the declension system, even proper names - inasmuch as possible.
There are some exceptions; the name Ines does not take endings, to give an example. Surely there are more but probably much less than in most other Slavic languages.

"Radio" by the way is not indeclinable, it is "radia" in genitive etc., same for "auto" and "laso" and others.


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## Adnyre

Awwal12 said:


> The Russian language has quite difficult, complicated rules about cases when a noun is indeclinable. So I would better just give a list of samples:
> 
> Каберне, турне, биде, сомбреро, балеро, либидо; Ратко, Ющенко, Кобо, Токио, Скопье;  Антананариву, харакири, Коидзуми, Хельсинки, Абэ, Кобэ, Ханъю; Хелен, Элизабет; + all female surnames that are foreign or of foreign origin ("нет ни Джона Ричардсона, ни Элизабет Ричардсон; ни Милоша Младича, ни Милы Младич"). I hope that I haven't forgot some group.


We have quite a similar state of affairs in Ukrainian, though there are differences: пальто - пальта, Ющенко - Ющенка. Sure one may also use, for instance, кіна instead of the correct genitive кіно colloquially.

It seems to me that Belarusian unlike Russian and Ukrainian doesn't tolerate indeclinable nouns to such a great extent, but I don't really know. I heard something like радыя once.


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## Azori

In Slovak indeclinable nouns are loanwords, mostly neuter nouns that end in *-i*, *-e*, *-é*, *-u*, *-ú*, *-ó*, for example: alibi, finále, kanoe, želé, kivi, dražé, tabu, resumé, menu, tofu, renomé; some feminine and masculine nouns, e.g.: madam, atašé, brandy; foreign feminine names that do not end in -a; and some geographic names: Marseilles, Sydney...


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## phosphore

lior neith said:


> In Slovak indeclinable nouns are loanwords, mostly neuter nouns that end in *-i*, *-e*, *-é*, *-u*, *-ú*, *-ó*, for example: alibi, finále, kanoe, želé, kivi, dražé, tabu, resumé, menu, tofu, renomé; some feminine and masculine nouns, e.g.: madam, atašé, brandy; foreign feminine names that do not end in -a; and some geographic names: Marseilles, Sydney...


 
Of all these words only _madam_ is indeclinable in Serbian and _draže_ exists only in plural.

There is one more problem here: when foreign words that end in a vowel are identified with one of the declinations, is the final vowel percieved as part of the stem? For example, we have _alibi-alibija, kanu-kanua, žele-želea, kivi-kivija, tabu-tabua, rezime-rezimea_ etc., but _finale-finala_.


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## Awwal12

> There is one more problem here: when foreign words that end in a vowel are identified with one of the declinations, is the final vowel percieved as part of the stem?


In Russian, loaned and foreign words that end in a vowel can be only declineable if that wovel is -а or -я. In this case, they are being identified as words of 1st declension (like Russian words "дядя" {m}, "папа" {m} "машина" {f}, "оглобля" {f}) and being declined in the same way. So, there is no problem. 

Иокогама (f.) - для Иокогамы - Иокогаме etc.
Таранага (m.) - для Таранаги - Таранаге etc.
etc.


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## Natalisha

Adnyre said:


> It seems to me that Belarusian unlike Russian and Ukrainian doesn't tolerate indeclinable nouns to such a great extent, but I don't really know. I heard something like *радыя* once.


Belarusian is similar to Russian and Ukrainian. There are some indeclinable nouns of foreign origin that end in a vowel, for example _*радыё*, бюро, журы, Тбiлiсi, Чылi_,etc. and female surnames ending in a consonant: _з Корбут Вольгай, у Пракаповiч Святланы_.


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## Adnyre

Natalisha said:


> Belarusian is similar to Russian and Ukrainian. There are some indeclinable nouns of foreign origin that end in a vowel, for example _*радыё*, бюро, журы, Тбiлiсi, Чылi_,etc. and female surnames ending in a consonant: _з Корбут Вольгай, у Пракаповiч Святланы_.


All right, I confess I know nothing about Belarusian, though I understand it pretty well. I also noticed that Belarusians decline _Ющанка_ (gen. _Ющанкі_), unlike Russians which do not.


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## dihydrogen monoxide

Natalisha said:


> Belarusian is similar to Russian and Ukrainian. There are some indeclinable nouns of foreign origin that end in a vowel, for example _*радыё*, бюро, журы, Тбiлiсi, Чылi_,etc. and female surnames ending in a consonant: _з Корбут Вольгай, у Пракаповiч Святланы_.


 
What about the other Belarussian variant, I can't recall the name at the moment.


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## Natalisha

Adnyre said:


> I also noticed that Belarusians decline Ю*шч*анка (gen. Ю*шч*анкі), unlike Russians which do not.


Yes, you are right, Adnyre. But when the last _-o_ is stressed surnames are indeclinable: _Жылкó Алене, Хiлькó Дзмiтрыю_. All the surnames ending in _-ых/-iх_ and those of foreign origin are also indeclinable: _з Сядых Вольгай, Вiктару Гюго_.


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## Awwal12

In Russian the surnames ending in -их/-ых aren't foreign, but also indeclineable - just because of their ethymology; for instance, you could say "Петрова дочь" and decline it (Петровой дочери, Петрову дочь), but the same obviously won't do with the phrase "дочь Седых" - since "Седых" is a plural genitive form of a noun, not adjective (-> дочери Седых, дочерью Седых etc.).


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## Natalisha

Awwal, I never say "Петрова дочь" and never dicline it the way you do. I'd say "Дочь Петрова, дочери Петрова". We can also add to the list of undeclinable Russian nouns abbraviations (_МГУ, ВАЗ_) and feminine nouns _мадам, фрау, леди, мисс_. Belarusians don't dicline them either.


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## Awwal12

> Awwal, I never say "Петрова дочь" and never dicline it the way you do. I'd say "Дочь Петрова, дочери Петрова"


You just misunderstood me. "Дочь Петрова" means "a daughter of *Petrov*", whereas "Петрова дочь" means "a daughter of *Pyotr*". Most of Russian surnames have developed from names or nicknames of fathers, and until XX century surnames of peasants usually even weren't inherited from fathers, changing in each generation. A surname of my grandmother (may she rest in the Kingdom of Heaven), for instance, originated from the name of my great-great-grandfather, a peasant of the Smolensk region, who had another surname (but still had one).


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## Natalisha

Sorry, Awwal. As you were talking about surnames I presumed that you meant "a daughter of Petrov".


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## Natalisha

Awwal12 said:


> You just misunderstood me. "Дочь Петрова" means "a daughter of *Petrov*", whereas "Петрова дочь"  means "a daughter of *Pyotr*". Most of Russian surnames have developed from names or nicknames of fathers, and until XX century surnames of peasants usually even weren't inherited from fathers, changing in each generation.





Natalisha said:


> Sorry, Awwal. As you were talking about surnames I presumed that you meant "a daughter of Petrov’s".


It can’t be “Pyotr’s daughter” either, because “Pyotr’s daughter” corresponds to Russian “дочь Петра”. So you can’t decline it like this: 





Awwal12 said:


> you could say "Петрова дочь" and decline it (Петровой дочери, Петрову дочь)


We should say “дочери Петра”, “дочерью Петра”, etc.


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## Awwal12

> It can’t be “Pyotr’s daughter” either, because “Pyotr’s daughter” corresponds to Russian “дочь Петра”.


In modern Russian it is mostly true, except possessive adjectives that are derived from diminutive names: Петина игрушка, Машин дом, etc. Possessive adjectives in Russian are on the brink of extinction now (and the norms of their declension have slightly changed already; compare "Машиного дома" {modern} and "Машина дома" {extremely archaic}). But even nowadays many similar adjectives exist as part of stable expressions (usually names of days or species) - Татьянин День, Петров День (it isn't "the day of Petrov", is it? ), Иванов червячок, Петров крест etc.

However, even 100-150 years ago the situation was totally different. Please, re-read Gogol's "The Inspector General" and note, how Bobchinskiy and Dobchinskiy fully name themselves: "Пётр *Иванов* сын..." Nowadays, except the standard patronymic name "Иванович" (which Gogol himself has used in the introduction), only the expression "сын Ивана" would be possible.

Also I dare to provide some citiations:
"птенцы гнезда *Петрова*" (Ключевский)
"Господи, Сын *Давидов*", "крещение *Иоаннов*о", "колено *Иудино*", "сыны *Израилевы*" (Синодальный перевод Библии)
"Закралась грусть в *красавицыну* грудь" (Крылов)
"Из *хозяйкина* кармана тут было тысячи три" (Чернышевский)
"Неужто *отцовы* слова так тяжко слушать?" (Горький)
etc.

You can read a bit more about possessive adjectives in Russian, for example, here (5.2.3; I have found the better source - P.S.)

P.P.S.: The only thing I want to emphasize is that the most widespread Russian surnames (those with -ов/ев/ёв and -ин/-ын endings) originated from possessive adjectives, whereas surnames with -ых/-их endings originated from nouns in plural genitive - and therefore obviously cannot be declined as separate words.


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