# men...de



## shannenms

Do you know a combination like men...de (sorry I can't write Greek) in other languages?


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## Tetina

Hi Shannenms. 
I don't know if I'm the only one but I don't understand your question. Can you explain more?


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## shannenms

Tetina said:


> Hi Shannenms.
> I don't know if I'm the only one but I don't understand your question. Can you explain more?


 
I like to know whether in other languages this ancient Greek men...de has any equivalent.
Thanks.


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## ireney

The only one I know in English is the "on the one hand/on the other hand"


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## shannenms

ireney said:


> The only one I know in English is the "on the one hand/on the other hand"


But this is not as common in english as men...de is in greek.
Thanks


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## wonderment

shannenms said:


> But this is not as common in english as men...de is in greek.



True. We use "on the one hand...on the other hand" to translate "men...de" but it's not common at all in speech or writing (in English). Is there a similar corresponding pair in Persian? It doesn't exist in Latin, Italian, Spanish, French, or German, far as I can tell. 

I think you'll get more replies posting this question in the "Other Languages" forum.


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## shannenms

wonderment said:


> True. We use "on the one hand...on the other hand" to translate "men...de" but it's not common at all in speech or writing (in English). Is there a similar corresponding pair in Persian? It doesn't exist in Latin, Italian, Spanish, French, or German, far as I can tell.


 
In persian we use va...va (meaning and...and _literally_), of the similar frequency as in Greek.


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## Tetina

Sorry, shannenms. It was me after all.
It's that I haven't used to see ancient greek in latin aplabet.


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## anthodocheio

Tetina said:


> Sorry, shannenms. It was me after all.
> It's that I haven't used to see ancient greek in latin aplabet.


Don't worry. Before today I couldn't imagine either.

Shannenms, in modern Greek we also say "and... and". Not sure if it is the same...

Regards


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## Orreaga

They are particles meaning "On the one hand... On the other hand..." (men... de...).


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## shannenms

Orreaga said:


> They are particles meaning "On the one hand... On the other hand..." (men... de...).


 
But On the one hand... On the other hand is used as frequently in English as men...de... is in Greek.


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## shannenms

anthodocheio said:


> Don't worry. Before today I couldn't imagine either.
> 
> Shannenms, in modern Greek we also say "and... and". Not sure if it is the same...
> 
> Regards


 
How intersting, because we say it in Persian the same and...and
Thanks for your reply


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## wonderment

anthodocheio said:


> Shannenms, in modern Greek we also say "and... and". Not sure if it is the same...





shannenms said:


> How intersting, because we say it in Persian the same and...and



 Please explain more. In English "on the one hand...on the other hand" is not the same as "and...and." Similarly in Ancient Greek, "men...de" is not equivalent to "kai...kai" (= "both...and" which is a bit more emphatic than "and...and").   "Kai...kai" does not have the adversative sense of "men...de." You can use "on the one hand...on the other hand" or even "and...but" to translate "men...de" but not, I don't think, "and...and." 

So is Persian "va...va" used in the same way as Ancient Greek "men...de"? And is Modern Greek "kai...kai" equivalent to Ancient Greek "men...de"??


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## anthodocheio

shannenms said:


> In persian we use va...va (meaning and...and _literally_), of the similar frequency as in Greek.


 


anthodocheio said:


> Shannenms, in modern Greek we also say "and... and". Not sure if it is the same...


 


shannenms said:


> How intersting, because we say it in Persian the same and...and
> Thanks for your reply


 


wonderment said:


> Please explain more. In English "on the one hand...on the other hand" is not the same as "and...and." Similarly in Ancient Greek, "men...de" is not equivalent to "kai...kai" (= "both...and" which is a bit more emphatic than "and...and"). "Kai...kai" does not have the adversative sense of "men...de." You can use "on the one hand...on the other hand" or even "and...but" to translate "men...de" but not, I don't think, "and...and."
> 
> So is Persian "va...va" used in the same way as Ancient Greek "men...de"? And is Modern Greek "kai...kai" equivalent to Ancient Greek "men...de"??


 
That's what I think too. I don't think that they are equivalent. Also, "μεν ... δε" can also be used in modern Greek.

But I haven't studied Greek language. I'm a horticulturist. I wish I knew better and be able to explain but I'm not.

Regards,


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## Stéphane89

wonderment said:


> True. We use "on the one hand...on the other hand" to translate "men...de" but it's not common at all in speech or writing (in English). Is there a similar corresponding pair in Persian? It doesn't exist in Latin, Italian, Spanish, French, or German, far as I can tell.
> 
> I think you'll get more replies posting this question in the "Other Languages" forum.


 
I'm not sure whether I've understood what "men...de" is. But you do have expressions in French that mean "on the one hand ... on the other hand".

*D'un côté ... d'un autre côté.*
*D'une part ... d'autre part*
*...*


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## shannenms

wonderment said:


> Please explain more. In English "on the one hand...on the other hand" is not the same as "and...and." Similarly in Ancient Greek, "men...de" is not equivalent to "kai...kai" (= "both...and" which is a bit more emphatic than "and...and"). "Kai...kai" does not have the adversative sense of "men...de." You can use "on the one hand...on the other hand" or even "and...but" to translate "men...de" but not, I don't think, "and...and."
> 
> So is Persian "va...va" used in the same way as Ancient Greek "men...de"? And is Modern Greek "kai...kai" equivalent to Ancient Greek "men...de"??


 
I meant that it is possible to say va...va (and...and) in Persian literature to convey the meaning, because we some diffrent *and*s, but in modern Persian, as far as I know, it should be said as in English.
I don't know whether you are so familiar with Persian literature that I can talk about this context with you.
Thanks.


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## ireney

Note for modern Greek: The equivalent of "men/de" is "men/de"  . An example in modern Greek follows showing the difference between men/de and kai/kai (and/and)

Ο μεν Γιώργος πήγε αριστερά, ο δε Κώστας δεξιά.
Και ο Γιώργος και ο Κώστας πήγαν αριστερά.


(In English I'd translate them as "George (on the one hand) went left, Kostas on the other hand went right" and "Both George and Kostas went left")

Unfortunately I don't know speak Farsi at all.


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## Outsider

ireney said:


> (In English I'd translate them as "George (on the one hand) went left, Kostas on the other hand went right" and "Both George and Kostas went left")


Another possible translation into English might be "While George went left, Kostas went right". It wouldn't always work, though. It's not as expressive and clear as using "on the one hand... on the other hand".


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## shannenms

ireney said:


> Note for modern Greek: The equivalent of "men/de" is "men/de"  . An example in modern Greek follows showing the difference between men/de and kai/kai (and/and)
> 
> Ο μεν Γιώργος πήγε αριστερά, ο δε Κώστας δεξιά.
> Και ο Γιώργος και ο Κώστας πήγαν αριστερά.
> 
> 
> (In English I'd translate them as "George (on the one hand) went left, Kostas on the other hand went right" and "Both George and Kostas went left")
> 
> Unfortunately I don't know speak Farsi at all.


 
Thanks for your reply,
In both examples of yours, in Persian of about 3 centuries ago and...and could be used, there are many examples of it in Sadi's works.
But in modern Persian we tend to begin the second part with *but.*


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## wonderment

Thanks, Irene, for the clarification and examples. 



StefKE said:


> I'm not sure whether I've understood what "men...de" is. But you do have expressions in French that mean "on the one hand ... on the other hand".
> 
> *D'un côté ... d'un autre côté.*
> *D'une part ... d'autre part*
> *...*



Yes, of course. If I may correct myself: I didn’t mean that other languages don’t have ways of translating “men...de.”  It just seems to me that these Greek correlative particles are unique to Greek (maybe not); they are very very common in classical Greek texts, less so in the post-classical period, and rare by the time we get to the New Testament. Unfortunately, I’m not yet familiar with Modern Greek. 

In the other languages that I’ve done some reading in (Latin, Italian, Spanish, French and German) I’ve not seen the expression “on the one hand...on the other hand” or its equivalent (and I don’t mean “...but...”) as a commonly occuring feature of these languages. But I could be wrong...thus my interest in the question. 



shannenms said:


> I meant that it is possible to say va...va (and...and) in Persian literature to convey the meaning, because we some diffrent *and*s, but in modern Persian, as far as I know, it should be said as in English.
> I don't know whether you are so familiar with Persian literature that I can talk about this context with you.



Alas, I don't know any Persian, but I'd love to learn someday, just so I could read Rumi and Molavi (are they the same person? ) in the original. Could you please give a short example of this use of "va...va" from Sadi's works, and a literal translation? Many thanks. 

Persian "va" looks similar to Syriac "wa" (also means "and"), but Syriac has a separate word for "but"--"ella."


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## Outsider

wonderment said:


> In the other languages that I’ve done some reading in (Latin, Italian, Spanish, French and German) I’ve not seen the expression “on the one hand...on the other hand” or its equivalent (and I don’t mean “...but...”) as a commonly occuring feature of these languages. But I could be wrong...thus my interest in the question.


In French, you can say *d'un côté... d'un autre côté* (as was previously said in this thread), and I'm sure there's a Spanish expression, too. What they don't have is a specific pair of words to say it.


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## Thomas1

Here's Spanish version:
_on one hand..., on the other hand.., por un lado..., por otro lado..._
http://www.wordreference.com/es/translation.asp?tranword=hand

In Polish we would say: _z jednej strony... z drugiej strony... _for _on one hand..., on the other hand.._

Tom


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## palomnik

I'm not real happy with translating μέν…δε into English as "on the one hand...on the other hand"; it seems heavy handed (no pun intended). In fact, it's one of those bits of Greek that make the language so interesting. Maybe the single conjunction "while" inserted between two clauses is closer to the effect, but even that's a bit too much.

Russian achieves a similar effect with the conjunction "a" between two clauses. "a" is a conjunction halfway between English "but" and "and".

Japanese arguably can achieve a similar effect by ending the the initial clause with the infinitive form, but we're getting into a realm where stylistics become difficult to equate.


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## Thomas1

palomnik said:


> [...]Russian achieves a similar effect with the conjunction "a" between two clauses. "a" is a conjunction halfway between English "but" and "and".
> [...]


Could you please give an example? I think we might have something similar in Polish, also _a_, but I need to see an example, first.


Tom


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## shannenms

wonderment said:


> Alas, I don't know any Persian, but I'd love to learn someday, just so I could read Rumi and Molavi (are they the same person? ) in the original. Could you please give a short example of this use of "va...va" from Sadi's works, and a literal translation? Many thanks.
> 
> Persian "va" looks similar to Syriac "wa" (also means "and"), but Syriac has a separate word for "but"--"ella."


 
Thanks for your reply.
1-Rumi=Molavi=Molana=Jaloddin Mohammad Balkhi=Baha Valad=Sheykhe Qunie
2-From Sadi I can tell you:
*And they approved his [first brother's] comments, and his [the other brothers] brothers became angry(King,30)*
It is mostly expressed only with one* and*:
*Two Darvishs can sleep on one rug, and two kings cannot rule a common land (Kings,3)*
In both examples the second *and *can be meant *but*
3-I think Persian va is taken from Syriac ( it is similar to Arabic _wa_). We have a separate word for "but",--"Amma".
If you like I can teach you Persian to read Molavi, or better than him as I think, Hafez and Ferdowsi.


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## wonderment

Thanks so much, shannenms, for your very helpful reply. (I will add Hafez and Ferdowsi to my reading list!) Until now, I didn't know that a single connective, the Persian va, can be so flexible in usage as both "and" and/or "but." 



palomnik said:


> I'm not real happy with translating ???…?? into English as "on the one hand...on the other hand"; it seems heavy handed (no pun intended). In fact, it's one of those bits of Greek that make the language so interesting. Maybe the single conjunction "while" inserted between two clauses is closer to the effect, but even that's a bit too much.



I think so too.



palomnik said:


> Russian achieves a similar effect with the conjunction "a" between two clauses. "a" is a conjunction halfway between English "but" and "and".



How interesting--I second Tom's request for an example. Please.


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## palomnik

wonderment said:


> Thanks so much, shannenms, for your very helpful reply. (I will add Hafez and Ferdowsi to my reading list!) Until now, I didn't know that a single connective, the Persian va, can be so flexible in usage as both "and" and/or "but."
> 
> 
> 
> I think so too.
> 
> 
> 
> How interesting--I second Tom's request for an example. Please.


 
Sorry for the delay in getting back to you folks.

Here's a quick example:  Он продолжал стоять, *а* жена села - he kept standing, while/and/although his wife sat down.

Actually, on reflection the conjunction *да *can be used to much the same effect as well, although it's rather archaic, and generally you only see it in proverbs nowadays:  

Мал золотник, да дорог - the gram may be small, but it's precious, sort of equivalent to the English "good things come in small packages."

дорого, да мило, дёшево, да гнило - expensive and nice, cheap and nasty - "you get what you pay for."

лицом хорош, да душой не пригож - appearances can be deceiving.


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## shannenms

palomnik said:


> Sorry for the delay in getting back to you folks.
> 
> Here's a quick example: Он продолжал стоять, *а* жена села - he kept standing, while/and/although his wife sat down.
> 
> Actually, on reflection the conjunction *да *can be used to much the same effect as well, although it's rather archaic, and generally you only see it in proverbs nowadays:
> 
> Мал золотник, да дорог - the gram may be small, but it's precious, sort of equivalent to the English "good things come in small packages."
> 
> дорого, да мило, дёшево, да гнило - expensive and nice, cheap and nasty - "you get what you pay for."
> 
> лицом хорош, да душой не пригож - appearances can be deceiving.


 
But I didn't get what _da_ is meant in your last example.
Thanks.


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## Thomas1

palomnik said:


> Sorry for the delay in getting back to you folks.
> 
> Here's a quick example: Он продолжал стоять, *а* жена села - he kept standing, while/and/although his wife sat down.


The same here:
_On siedział a żona stała._



> Actually, on reflection the conjunction *да *can be used to much the same effect as well, although it's rather archaic, and generally you only see it in proverbs nowadays:
> 
> Мал золотник, да дорог - the gram may be small, but it's precious, sort of equivalent to the English "good things come in small packages."
> 
> дорого, да мило, дёшево, да гнило - expensive and nice, cheap and nasty - "you get what you pay for."
> 
> лицом хорош, да душой не пригож - appearances can be deceiving.


I think we don't use _tak_ in this function, at least I can't think of an example illustrating the meaning you gave, perhaps someone else can.


Tom


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## palomnik

shannenms said:


> But I didn't get what _da_ is meant in your last example.
> Thanks.


 
Shannenms, I didn't translate the last one literally, since it doesn't work out too well in English.

лицом хорош, да душой не пригож means, roughly, "nice in the face while untrue in the soul."

Thomas, I really know very little about Polish, but I don't think that Russian да in these sentences translates well into Polish _tak_.  In addition to meaning "yes", да can be used in a way to emphasize a change in perspective.  It's not very common in modern spoken Russian, although there is the rather paradoxical phrase да нет!  which means something like French "mais non!", and is common enough.


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## Thomas1

palomnik said:


> [...]
> 
> Thomas, I really know very little about Polish, but I don't think that Russian да in these sentences translates well into Polish _tak_. In addition to meaning "yes", да can be used in a way to emphasize a change in perspective. It's not very common in modern spoken Russian, although there is the rather paradoxical phrase да нет! which means something like French "mais non!", and is common enough.


Yup, I realise that.
Funnily enough, the phrase you gave in your last post literally translates into Polish as _tak nie_. 

Tom


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