# FR: sortir - auxiliaire être / avoir



## hemmer

Hi,
I realize in passe compose the majority of the verbs are conjugated with avoir and then there are the DR MRS VANDERTRAMP verbs that go with etre. Then, a certain number of those DR MRS VANDERTRAMP verbs go with avoir if they have direct objects and stay with etre if they have indirect objects.

In these examples i understand some but fail to see the others:
1) Je suis sorti(e) la bibliotheque.
So, here, i left the library so the verb acts on the subject so it is indirect object.
2) J'ai sorti les livres de la bibliotheque.
Here, i left the books at the library so the verb acts on the books so it is direct object.

[…]

*Moderator note*: multiple threads merged to create this one.


----------



## Outsider

hemmer said:


> In these examples i understand some but fail to see the others:
> 1) Je suis sorti(e) de la bibliotheque.
> So, here, i left the library so the verb acts on the subject so it is indirect object.


I wouldn't say that it's an indirect object. Notice that "to leave" [the library] is transitive in English, but _sortir_ is intransitive in French.
You always use the verb _être_ with intransitive verbs of motion, like _sortir_, here.



hemmer said:


> 2) J'ai sorti les livres de la bibliotheque.
> Here, i left the books at the library so the verb acts on the books so it is direct object.


"I took the books out of the library."
Here, the verb _sortir_ is used as transitive (you took something from of the library), and it doesn't really mean "to leave/exit", but rather "to remove".

[...]


----------



## Pinairun

[...]

 Tu as sorti  le chien (le chien is a direct object because the verb act on it)
 Le chien a été sorti par toi (passive), le chien est le sujet.
_The dog has been taken out by you (the dog is the subject) _

*If you are able to turn the  sentence from active voice into passive voice, you must use "avoir".*


----------



## Berri00

> Here, the verb _sortir_ is used as transitive (you took something from of the library), and it doesn't really mean "to leave/exit", but rather "to remove".


Actually "sortir" is correct for exiting/leaving a place and doesn't have anything to do with the verb "to remove".

We don't say "J'ai sorti les livres de la bibliotheque" but "J'ai laissé les livres à la bibliothèque". "De la bibliothèque" means "of the library" and "à la bibliothèque" means "at the library"
Example: "les livres de la bibliothèque" would be "the books of the library" which in the correct form is translated to "the library's books". Another translation can be "the books from the library" and it depends on the context in which the sentence is said.


----------



## itka

Let's first clarify the lexicon :
une bibliothèque can be a library or a bookcase.

When you say : _j'ai sorti les livres de la bibliothèque_, I understand that you have taken them out of the bookcase (removed them)...
If you took books from the library, you'd say : _j'ai pris des livres à la bibliothèque._

Let's consider now your first sentence :
(1) j'ai sorti les livres de la bibliothèque.
Can you turn the sentence in the passive voice ? Yes.
(2) les livres sont sortis de la bibliothèque (par moi)
---> les livres are direct object in the (1) (and subject in the (2))
---> there is a direct object ---> auxiliary _avoir_.

(3) Je suis sorti(e) de la maison.
Can you turn the sentence in the passive voice ? No.
There is no direct object ---> auxiliary _être_.


----------



## Fred_C

Berri00 said:


> Actually "sortir" is correct for exiting/leaving a place and doesn't have anything to do with the verb "to remove".
> 
> We don't say "J'ai sorti les livres de la bibliotheque"


Yes we do!
And it means "I brought the books out of the library."


----------



## Nicomon

It may be regional, but I personally wouldn't hesitate to say _J'ai sorti *d*es livres de la bibliothèque_ to mean that I borrowed a few books from the local library. I took them out, and I have to return them by say... 3 weeks. 

I removed the books from the bookshelves, went to the counter and showed my library card to borrow them, then left the library... with the books.
_J'ai sorti_ _les livres des étagères_ (removed/took out), _et après être passée au comptoir, je suis sortie_ _de la bibliothèque _(I left/went out) _avec les trois livres que j'ai empruntés_ _à_ /_sortis de_ (borrowed from/took out of) _la bibliothèque. _

_Edit: _On the other hand,_ j'ai sorti *l*es livres de la bibliothèque_ would mean to me like itka said. e.g. _J'ai sorti les livres de la bibliothèque/vidé la bibliothèque, pour la nettoyer. _


----------



## Berri00

Ok.. i didn't know bibliothèque would extented to the bookcase, sorry. But in "i left the books at the library" sortir isn't the right verb as far as i know.


----------



## jann

> Ok.. i didn't know bibliothèque would extented to the bookcase, sorry. But in "i left the books at the library" sortir isn't the right verb as far as i know.


Berri, when you *borrow* (i.e., remove) books from the library, some people use the verb _sortir_.  At least, that is what we are debating above. 

This is the grammar forum, so please let's refocus the discussion on the verb _sortir_ and its auxiliary in compound tenses, rather than getting bogged down in a vocabulary discussion about which words to use when you want to say that you borrowed a book from the library. If you really want to discuss borrowing book, we can start a separate thread on the Vocab forum. 

If we need a transitive example of _sortir_ for this thread, we can simply use a different sentence where everyone will agree on the vocabulary.  May I suggest something like:

To take the plates out of the cupboard = _Sortir les assiettes du placard
_To take the laundry out of the washing machine = _Sortir le linge de la machine_ 
etc.

Thanks! 

Jann
Member and Moderator


----------



## Berri00

Sure, i was aware of what the debate is about and only correct (wrong apparently) the verb _sortir_ in the 2nd sentence as it seemed to me he made a literal translation of "i left the books at the library". Although we do use "sortir les livres de la bibliòtheque", it has a different meaning of what he wants to say as Outside pointed out well after all.



> 2) J'ai sorti les livres de la bibliotheque.
> Here, i left the books at the library


That's all.


----------



## Outsider

Yes, that would be "J'ai laissé les livres à la bibliothèque". I hadn't even noticed Hemmer's translation, to be quite honest.


----------



## Nicomon

This is of course a generalisation, but I think it is safe to say that in most cases, auxiliary _être_ is used when _sortir _means to _go out of/come out of/l__eave a place._ 
And _avoir_, when _sortir_ translates to English as _take out_

If we take jann's examples, in both cases you'd use "avoir"
_J'ai/tu as/il a... sorti les assiettes du placard/__sorti le linge (ou la lessive) de la machine à laver. _

_Tu *es* sorti de la maison sans manteau = You left the house/went out of the house without a coat._
_Il n'*est* rien sorti de nos recherches = Nothing came out of our research_
_Cela m'*est* sorti de la tête = It went (right) out of my head_

_J'*ai *sorti le chien de la maison / le chapeau de la boîte = I took the dog out of the house / the hat out of the box_
_Le chien *est* sorti par la porte arrière/ le chat *est* sorti du sac = The dog went out by the back door / the cat came out of the bag_


----------



## jemmahunter

I am a bit confused whether to use avoir or être in this sentence...

Michelle est sortie un cube de sa poche
Michelle a sorti un cube de sa poche...


which one is correct?

thanks


----------



## Lacuzon

Hi,

The second one is right!


----------



## provataki

Hi, 
generally speaking, both forms are correct.

But in your case, the correct phrase is "il a sorti un cube de sa poche" given that here the verb "sortir" is transitive thus it has an object, "le cube".

The verb is conjugated with the auxiliary "etre" (sorry for the lack of accents, I don't have a French keybord) when it is intransitive thus its action is reflected on the subject.

i.e Je suis sorti de chez-moi pour aller faire les courses.

Hope it's clearer for you now!


----------



## regisbobe

You have to say

elle a sorti un cube de sa poche.

the other possibility will be:

elle est sortie, un cube dans sa poche.

but the meaning is completly different. she went out with a cube in her pocket.


----------



## Kleuna

If I wanted to say " the monster came out of the lake", would it be correct to say  "Le monstre a sorti du lac"  or "Le monstre est sorti du lac" ?   What is the difference?

Merci.


----------



## WannaBFluent

*le monstre est sorti du lac*


----------



## fugace

Le sens est différent, avec "être" on obtient sens que tu as donné dans ton post. Il me semble qu'en français, pour les verbes de mouvement l'auxiliaire utilisée est généralement "être". Avec "avoir", le sens devient celui de "sortir + complément d'object direct", comme dans "*J'ai sorti mon portable de ma poche.*".


----------



## Kleuna

Oh, I see.  So if I wanted to say "I took the car out" it would be "J'ai sorti la voiture"  whereas "I went out with my friends" would be "Je suis sortie avec mes amies".

Merci!


----------



## janpol

> would it be correct to say "Le monstre a sorti du lac" or "Le monstre est sorti du lac" ? What is the difference?


La différence se situe dans le fait que la première phrase est incorrecte et que la seconde est correcte
Si "sortir" a un COD, il faut utiliser l'auxiliaire "avoir" : il a sorti sa voiture de garage. Il a sorti un top model. Il a sorti son arme de sa poche..
Une cinquantaine de verbes utilisent "être" ou "avoir" selon la nuance que l'on a voulu introduire : avec "avoir", on insiste sur l'action : le bateau a échoué . Avec "être", on insiste sur le résultat de l'action : le bateau est échoué.


----------



## cahill

" Le professeur avait déjà commencé à parler  quand Marc a sorti son cahier " Why is "sortir" conjugated with avoir ?  My understanding is that "Mark" is the subject and "cahier" the object. The object comes after the verb.

Context:

I'm doing exercises from a review and practise text book which includes questions involving the pluperfect

Thanks


----------



## Chez

The verb 'sortir' here means 'to take out' (remove from inside somewhere/something); not 'to go out' (of a room/house).

The teacher had already started speaking when Marc took out his notebook.

In this sense, 'sortir' takes avoir.


----------



## cahill

Thanks Chez. Appreciated


----------

