# Welsh: use of feminine case of superlative adjectives



## Curt Jugg

In David Thorne's "A Comprehensive Welsh Grammar" (1993) on page 144 (dealing with comparison of adjectives) there appears the sentence "Hi yw'r talaf o'r ddwy". I can't understand why "talaf" isn't "dalaf" since both the pronoun and numeral are feminine and two female individuals are being compared. If it were a case of a male being compared with a female, then I could see why the masculine form of the adjective might be chosen, but this is clearly not the case here.

Grateful for any clarification.


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## Welsh_Sion

I have this book (and also the monolingual Welsh version) and can only suggest that it's a typo. (The offending example exists in both books and I will also say that neither book is immune from such typos. See, e.g. p.8 para. 20, with regard to the alphabet which omits <dd> in the English version but does not in the _Cymraeg_ version. There are others ...)

However, for serious language learners (who can't read/understand Welsh sufficiently (yet!)) I would still recommend Thorne as the best single volume bilingual (Eng-Wel) grammar book. Avoid anything which makes use of _Cymraeg Byw _(e.g. G_ramadeg Cymraeg Cyfoes_).


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## Welsh_Sion

Paging @Tegs ...


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## Curt Jugg

Welsh_Sion said:


> I have this book (and also the monolingual Welsh version) and can only suggest that it's a typo. (The offending example exists in both books and I will also say that neither book is immune from such typos. See, e.g. p.8 para. 20, with regard to the alphabet which omits <dd> in the English version but does not in the _Cymraeg_ version. There are others ...)
> 
> However, for serious language learners (who can't read/understand Welsh sufficiently (yet!)) I would still recommend Thorne as the best single volume bilingual (Eng-Wel) grammar book. Avoid anything which makes use of _Cymraeg Byw _(e.g. G_ramadeg Cymraeg Cyfoes_).


Many thanks for this. If it were known that the two people being compared for height were male and female and the female was still the (taller) subject, would the correct form be "Hi yw'r *d*alaf o'r ddau" or "Hi yw'r *t*alaf o'r ddau"?


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## Tegs

The original is a mistake, but it's a very minor one compared to the error you were asking about in your other thread. 


Curt Jugg said:


> If it were known that the two people being compared for height were male and female and the female was still the (taller) subject, would the correct form be "Hi yw'r *d*alaf o'r ddau" or "Hi yw'r *t*alaf o'r ddau"?


The fact that one is male and the other is female is clear from the use of hi and dau, so the sentence itself makes this information known. Hi yw'r talaf o'r ddau, in that case. It should only be "dalaf" when talking about "dwy" (both females).


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## Welsh_Sion

Not that you probably need this as you seem to have already sussed it out, but notice the Welsh structure when comparing two entities - '_y dalaf o'r ddwy_' etc - we use the *superlative*. Standard English uses the *comparative*. I have heard '_She is the tallest of the two_' etc., but have also been told that it is considered non-standard English. Not so in _Cymraeg._


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## Curt Jugg

Tegs said:


> The original is a mistake, but it's a very minor one compared to the error you were asking about in your other thread.
> 
> The fact that one is male and the other is female is clear from the use of hi and dau, so the sentence itself makes this information known. Hi yw'r talaf o'r ddau, in that case. It should only be "dalaf" when talking about "dwy" (both females).


That clarifies the point. Thanks, Tegs.


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## Curt Jugg

Welsh_Sion said:


> Not that you probably need this as you seem to have already sussed it out, but notice the Welsh structure when comparing two entities - '_y dalaf o'r ddwy_' etc - we use the *superlative*. Standard English uses the *comparative*. I have heard '_She is the tallest of the two_' etc., but have also been told that it is considered non-standard English. Not so in _Cymraeg._


Yes, I've seen that mentioned elsewhere. Thanks anyway.


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## Tegs

Tegs said:


> Hi yw'r talaf o'r ddau, in that case. It should only be "dalaf" when talking about "dwy"


I'm starting to really doubt this as I can't find any mention of it in any grammar books. Hi yw'r dalaf is what sounds correct, regardless of what comes after it. So, please disregard what I said in the quoted bit above!


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## Curt Jugg

Thanks for coming back on this one, Tegs. Point noted.


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## Tegs

You're welcome. I wouldn't want to give the wrong advice so I will always come back and correct something if I've made a mistake!


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## Welsh_Sion

Perhaps we can have it both ways. After all if there are two (one each of both sexes*), then 'dau' would come into play and the masculine (unmutated) form is correct. Similarly, if we have two males, then 'dau' applies and again we would say Adda is 'talaf' than Brian of those two boys.

Again, if they are two girls, we use 'dwy' and we would say 'Angharad is dalaf than Bethan'.

It's only when they are one of each - what do we do? My suggestion, as applied above use 'dau' but say 'Bethan is the dalaf o'r ddau' or 'Adda is the talaf o'r ddau'.

(I must say that hearing, 'Bethan yw'r talaf o'r ddau' (i.e. Bethan and Adda) sounds harsh on my ears ...)

*Let's keep it simple and not invoke any of those other, so-called more fluid genders!

It's also a bit like those basic maths sums:

odd + odd = even (1 + 1 = 2)
odd + even = odd (1 + 2 = 3)
even + odd = odd (4 + 1 = 5)
even + even = even (6 + 8 = 14)


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## Curt Jugg

I've now found a paragraph in Thorne's Grammar, 190 Note 3 (Page 133), which says, "The masculine form of the adjective is normally selected in the predicate". He quotes "Yr oedd y ferch yn wyn." I realise he is referring to adjectives which have different feminine and masculine forms, but could this rule account for his selection of the masculine in the sentence which caused me to raise my original query? Probably not, but I just thought I'd ask.


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## Curt Jugg

And one more thing: I've googled "hi yw'r mwyaf" (including inverted commas) and got 2,840 hits but when I've googled "hi yw'r fwyaf" I've only got 868. Not sure how significant that is, though.


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## Curt Jugg

@Welsh_Sion, @Tegs 

Sorry to come back on this, but I've now tried a different adjective and googled "hi yw'r gorau" and got 10,400 hits; "hi yw'r orau" only produces 219. Seems strange, but what am I missing here?


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## Welsh_Sion

Personal take.

*Hi yw'r orau *- standard, unmarked form when referring to a female who is the best.
Google hits: 22

e.g.
*Eleri/Hi yw'r orau am Fathemateg yn ei hysgol*
Eleri/She's the best at Maths in her school

*Hi yw'r gorau *- marked form. Substituting for a masculine noun which is understood/already mentioned.
Google hits: 40

e.g.
*- Pwy yw'r person gorau am y swydd? *Who is the best person for the job?
*- Hi yw'r (person) gorau* She's the best (person)

*Sôn am ddoctoriaid, hi ydy'r meddyg teulu gorau yn y sir. Ie, hi ydy'r gorau*
Speaking of doctors, she's the best GP in the county. Yes, she's the best

See also ex. 13 in this table:

Ask Dr Gramadeg: Cymharu Ansoddeiriau / Comparison of Adjectives – Parallel.cymru: Bilingual Welsh digital magazine


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## Curt Jugg

Thanks, @Welsh_Sion. What you say makes sense and is the rule I shall apply in future. Any idea why I get so many more hits when I google "hi yw'r gorau", though?


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## Welsh_Sion

Your number of hits was grossly inflated for both versions. If you scroll down Google you will see it lists the number of pages which reference your search item. (I trust you used inverted commas for "*Hi yw'r gorau*" and "*Hi yw'r orau*" as this helps find an item much quicker.) If I remember rightly, that although page 1 of Google lists hits in their thousands, there are, in fact, a mere 4 or 5 pages of hits in reality. (Why Google does this, I've never fully understood. But it in fact from page 2 onwards indicates that there are far fewer hits than previously noted.)

I hope @Tegs and any passing fellow Cymraeg linguist can give further clarification and help in these matters. It seems that we are currently a two person show ... though I'd be loath to call Tegs, Tweedledum to my Tweedledee!


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## Curt Jugg

I did use inverted commas, @Welsh_Sion, but I never thought of scrolling down to the end, silly old fellow that I am. I know in future. Thanks again.


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