# ならない・いけない・だめ



## lrosa

Hello

I'm having a good deal of trouble grasping the nuance between expressions involving combinations of the following:

ーなければ・ーなくては・ーないと　　　　　　－　　　　　　ならない・いけない・だめ

Taking for example the idea of going to school　－　学校に行く

First of all, which combinations are possible? Are all possible? I have highlighted in red those which I believe to be most common, at least according to textbooks, etc...

１　学校に行かなければ　　　　　　　　　ならない　　　　　　　　　　　　　いけない　　　　　　　だめ
２　学校に行かなくては　　　　　　　　　ならない　　　　　　　　　　　　　　いけない　　　　　　　だめ
３　学校に行かないと　　　　　　　　　　ならない　　　　　　　　　　　　　　いけない　　　　　　　だめ


Is there a significant difference between the meanings, or are such expressions often used interchangeably?

Sorry for this potentially difficult question!


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## rukiak

Hello again, Irosa.

There is not any difference among their meanings.
Those are often used interchangeably.

As to case 1, ' ーなければ'+'ならない'　is more natural.
As to case 2. ' ーなくては'+'ならない'　and ' ーなくては'+'いけない'　are more natural.
As to case 3. ' ーないと'+'いけない'　and ' ーないと'+'だめ'　are correct.

The case 1 is a little more formal than case2 and 3.


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## lrosa

Hi Rukiak, and thank you very much for your reply! I was indeed interested to know which of the expressions would be more formal, and which ones less so.

I have just thought of one thing that I hadn't thought of before. It seems to me that 'ーなければ'+'ならない', or simply the more informal ’ーなきゃ’ is often used to express the idea that someone has to do something immediately. So, would I be right in thinking that "学校に行かなきゃ" means "I have to go to school right now"?

My sense is also that 'ーなくては'+'いけない' refers to a general principle, as in "It is an obligation for me to go to school in general". However, I'm not completely sure...

On the question of formality: I believe that in informal conversation, the most common practice is simply to leave out ならない, いけない, and だめ, as these are implied. However, if one is using 丁寧語 (Teineigo), would the most common thing be to finish with verbs なりません, いけません and だめです (I guess だめ is a little less polite...)? I'm guessing it would sound a bit abrupt, in polite speech, to finish a sentence with ’ーなきゃ’, etc...


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## rukiak

lrosa said:


> I have just thought of one thing that I hadn't thought of before. It seems to me that 'ーなければ'+'ならない', or simply the more informal ’ーなきゃ’ is often used to express the idea that someone has to do something immediately. So, would I be right in thinking that "学校に行かなきゃ" means "I have to go to school right now"?


I think so.
 ( Though, with some adjunct, you have to judge by the context.
For example, 明日は、スーパーに買い物に行かなきゃ。　, and another one is 次こそは、試験に合格しなきゃ。 or 今から ( right now ) 買い物にいかなきゃ。)



lrosa said:


> My sense is also that 'ーなくては'+'いけない' refers to a general principle, as in "It is an obligation for me to go to school in general". However, I'm not completely sure...


That's right. 
For example, 日曜日は教会に行かなくてはいけない。
And as a general principal. sentences from which you leave out ならない, いけない, and だめ seems *less* suitable.



lrosa said:


> On the question of formality: I believe that in informal conversation, the most common practice is simply to leave out ならない, いけない, and だめ, as these are implied.


That's good point. I agree with you.



lrosa said:


> However, if one is using 丁寧語 (Teineigo), would the most common thing be to finish with verbs なりません, いけません and だめです (I guess だめ is a little less polite...)? I'm guessing it would sound a bit abrupt, in polite speech, to finish a sentence with ’ーなきゃ’, etc...


Right.

I believe, your comprehension is generally right. 

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As to politeness, examples above are for the descriptive situation, or for the address.　And you may know, when you do communicate with someone in the society, adding よ/ね is better way. 

　学校に行かなければなりません よ/ね。( You have to go to school.)
　学校に行かなければなりませんので。　/　学校に行かなければならない です/のです/のですよ。( I have to go to school. ) 

It's the same as to いけません and だめです.

　学校に行かなくてはいけません よ/ね。( You have to go to school.)
　学校に行かなくてはいけませんので。　/　学校に行かなくてはいけない です/のです/のですよ。( I have to go to school. ) 

　学校に行かないと駄目です よ/ね。( You have to go to school.)
　学校に行かないと駄目ですので。　/　学校に行かないと駄目です。( I have to go to school. ) 

More practically, when someone has to do something immediately, the following may be used instead.

　学校に行って下さい。　( Please go to school.)


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## lrosa

Perhaps what I meant to suggest was that "ーなきゃ" is used mostly for one-time, isolated events, whereas "ーなくてはいけない" is used for general rules.

For example, I'm curious about 日曜日は教会に行かなくてはいけない, which means "I/we/you/etc... must go to church on Sundays." But can it also mean "I/etc... must go to church *this Sunday*"? 

Rephrasing the sentence, I believe we can say 今度の日曜日は教会に行かなきゃならない - "I/etc... must go to church this Sunday." 
But is it also possible to say 今度の日曜日は教会に行かなくてはいけない?

Similarly, I wonder if it's also possible to use 'ーないと'+'だめ' in both of the above sentences. While we have agreed that there is no huge difference between the meanings of all these expressions, perhaps there is a difference in where they can be used and where they can not be?


Thank you for your examples of polite expressions. They actually raised another question in my mind which I will explore in a new thread!


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## rukiak

lrosa said:


> For example, I'm curious about 日曜日は教会に行かなくてはいけない, which means "I/we/you/etc... must go to church on Sundays." But can it also mean "I/etc... must go to church *this Sunday*"?


 From the sentense "日曜日は教会に行かなくてはいけない". I can't judge which one is meant. That completely depends on the context.



lrosa said:


> Rephrasing the sentence, I believe we can say 今度の日曜日は教会に行かなきゃならない - "I/etc... must go to church this Sunday."
> But is it also possible to say 今度の日曜日は教会に行かなくてはいけない?


  They both  are possible to be said.



lrosa said:


> Similarly, I wonder if it's also possible to use 'ーないと'+'だめ' in both of the above sentences. While we have agreed that there is no huge difference between the meanings of all these expressions, perhaps there is a difference in where they can be used and where they can not be?


日曜日は教会に行かないとだめです
今度の日曜日は教会に行かないとだめです
Each one is the same meaning as the sentense above respectively. No difference in meaning.


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## lrosa

Hello, sorry to trouble you again!

I came across an explanation in a grammar book which states "There is an important difference between なければならない　and なければいけない. An expression whose second part is ならない is used for an obligation under external circumstances, or an obligation created by others. When the second part is いけない, the obligation is interior, coming from oneself."

Could this be a fair statement?


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## rukiak

After Iv'e looked at a grammer site and considered that deeply, I thought that could be a fair statement.

So when you use those expressions, you had better follow the rule. But when you hear someone say those expressions, you don't need judge the nuance by the statement you indicated , because it is no use, I think.


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## lrosa

Ok, thank you very much, Rukiak!


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## Pacerier

lrosa said:


> Hello, sorry to trouble you again!
> 
> I came across an explanation in a grammar book which states "There is an important difference between なければならない　and なければいけない. An expression whose second part is ならない is used for an obligation under external circumstances, or an obligation created by others. When the second part is いけない, the obligation is interior, coming from oneself."



to clarify, does this mean that if I say to Bob this: 日曜日は教会に行かなくてはいけない it means "you must go to church because I make it a must that you must go". and if i say to Bob this: 日曜日は教会に行かなくてならない it means "you must go to church because someone/something make it a must that you must go"

Or am i misinterpreting the quote about obligations? (which i think i am)


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## lrosa

Pacerier said:


> does this mean that if I say to Bob this: 日曜日は教会に行かなくてはいけない it means "you must go to church because I make it a must that you must go". and if i say to Bob this: 日曜日は教会に行かなくてならない it means "you must go to church because someone/something make it a must that you must go"



I think the rule means that ならない emphasises the fact that if the action is not completed, the person in question will be negatively affecting the external world, whereas いけない implies more that the person will feel bad about it. This is just my interpretation, though. I know that I hear "なくちゃいけない" (the shortened version of なくてはいけない) a lot more than なくてはならない. As for the nuance, I don't really understand it. Anyway, if you're wondering which one to use, I think either one will do the job!


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## Pacerier

cool, thanks for the explanation =P


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## bleuboia

Hello,

I read that なくち is a form used more by females. Is this true? Are there forms that are used more by men? Women?

Or are all of these forms used by everyone regardless of gender.

Thanks!


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## frequency

You mean ～なくてはならない vs ～なくちゃ? e.g. 行かなくてはならない vs 行かなくちゃ？The latter one is casual and gender free.
I recommend you to memorise both, and なくち can't be stand-alone.


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## Cowrie

My hypotheses on why somebody wrote なくちゃ is a form used more by females: 
- Women talk more than men (なくちゃ is more like a spoken/casual form); 
- That somebody has more women to chat with and more men to discuss something with; and/or 
- Men lack a sense of responsibility. 

I’m only (half) joking, just in case. I basically agree that it is (and all the expressions mentioned in this thread so far are) gender free.


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## SoLaTiDoberman

"行かなくちゃ！　きみに会いに行かなくちゃ！　君の町に行かなくちゃ！ (井上陽水：傘がない）"

I can understand that some people think that なくちゃ is used by women.
In my opinion, (or I've heard that), なくちゃ is one of Tokyo dialect. Or at least, it used to be a Tokyo dialect.
In western Japan, men usually don't say 行かなくちゃ, but women say that.
However, Tokyo dialect is widely used throughout Japan, so some members think that it is gender free.

I think the writer who mentioned it is probably a more than middle aged person who are not from Kanto area.


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