# Täyttää // täytyä ?



## ThomasK

I don't know Finnish, but I like exploring it. While having a look al kinds of derivations based on 'full', I came across *täytyä*, which seems to mean something like 'have to'. I Just wondered whether there could be an etymological link with *täytää *(or ...), filling. 

Maybe not at all (I am very good at wishful thinking), but on the other hand: when something (...) is full, some kind of urge might arise. That is what I thought. Could that make sense?


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## Gavril

Hi ThomasK,

I don't have my etymological dictionary with me right now, but I recall reading that there is thought to be a connection between the Finnish word "täysi" (meaning "full") and "täytyä". I don't know what the theorized semantic development would have been, but I think "täysi" is the simpler root form, and the meaning of "full" is also thought to be ancient. I don't know if "täytyä" has a comparable distribution (across languages) or if it has ever meant something different from "must".


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## ThomasK

I see, thanks. Is it the most common form of obligation, or even: is it a real modal verb by the way, like _must _or _can _in English?


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## DrWatson

I checked both *Suomen sanojen alkuperä* (”The origin of Finnish words”) and *Nykysuomen etymologinen sanakirja* (”Etymological dictionary of modern Finnish”), and they confirm what Gavril already said. There is indeed a link, and the direction is from _täysi_ → _täytyä_. _Täysi_ (stem _täyte-_) is thought to be a Germanic loan (from Early Proto-Germanic _*tǣwia-_, cf. Anglo-Saxon _tǣwe_). It is stated that in Finnish dialects and some closely related languages like Karelian the verb _täytyä_ also carries the meanings 'fill (up)' and 'ripen'.

What do you mean by ”real modal verb”?


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## ThomasK

Filling up and ripening: interesting... 

Now, as for 'real modal verbs': well, I must pay attention of course, but I meant those modals having special forms (or lacking forms), like _can, must, will_, etc.; in general there is no argument about those, whereas the others are often more like 'regular' verbs. I admit that 'real' is not the correct term. So in this case I should perhaps have asked: is it the most common modal of obligation in Finnish?


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## Gavril

I'm not a native speaker, but I was taught that "täytyä" is the default verb for a certain level of obligation. There are three main verbs/phrases used for positive obligation, each corresponding to a different degree of force: "pitää" is the lowest degree, "on pakko" is the highest degree, and "täytyä" falls somewhere in between.

Quick comment on DrWatson's post:



DrWatson said:


> I checked both *Suomen sanojen alkuperä* (”The origin of Finnish words”) and *Nykysuomen etymologinen sanakirja* (”Etymological dictionary of Finnish”), and they confirm what Gavril already said. There is indeed a link, and the direction is from _täysi_ → _täytyä_. _Täysi_ (stem _täyte-_) is thought to be a Germanic loan (from Early Proto-Germanic _*tǣwia-_, cf. Anglo-Saxon _tǣwe_).



Sorry to digress from the topic, but do SSA and NES both support the Germanic loan etymology for "täysi"? I thought that that explanation was considered somewhat outdated. For example, the Germanic etymology would seem to require the rejection of Hungarian _tel_ "full" as a cognate, but I recall seeing the Hungarian word mentioned as cognate to _täysi_ etc. in papers from the last 10 or so years.


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## DrWatson

Gavril said:


> Sorry to digress from the topic, but do SSA and NES both support the Germanic loan etymology for "täysi"? I thought that that explanation was considered somewhat outdated. For example, the Germanic etymology would seem to require the rejection of Hungarian _tel_ "full" as a cognate, but I recall seeing the Hungarian word mentioned as cognate to _täysi_ etc. in papers from the last 10 or so years.


I remember both dictionaries specifically describe the Hungarian cognate as dubious, but I'm not totally sure. As I don't have them at hand at the moment, I'll try and check again tomorrow. Could you give me an example of one or some the papers you mentioned?


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## Gavril

Here's a quote from Schalin 2004, "Itämerensuomen  *_leüta_-vartalon lainaperäisyys", p.31:



> Vaikka aikaisemmin on kyseenalaistettu se, että konsonattiyhtymä *-wd- olisi ylipäätään mahdollinen esisuomalaisessa fonotaksissa (Itkonen 1970: 12), nykyinen tutkimus ei anna aihetta tällaiseen kritiikkiin. Uusimman käsityksen mukaan (Aikio 2002: 31–34; vrt. myös jo Sammallahti 1988: 545) täysi-vartalo on palautettava muotoon *täwdV samoin kuin myös köysi-sanan olisi katsottava polveutuvan muodosta *kewdi- (*käwdi-)



Since this is in the context of arguing the possibility that the *leüta root could be of Pre-Germanic origin, the quote seems to imply that "täysi" and its Finnic cognates are also (widely) thought to go back to a period that at least predates Proto-Germanic. (However, it doesn't directly state that Hungarian "tel-" is accepted as a cognate, so I was wrong to say that I had seen that particular point made.)

Several years ago, I read the original paper (Koivulehto 1976) that argued for the Germanic origin of "täysi", and if I recall correctly, one of the main justifications for abandoning the earlier etymological proposal for this word (Finno-Ugric origin) was the presumed problem with *-wD- sequences that Schalin states (in the quote above) is no longer considered to be so problematic.


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## DrWatson

Okay, it's becoming clearer now. So, according to SSA, the etymology is not "dubious" as I put it, but instead it assumes two different etymologies: it considers the Permic and Ugric words cognate, but postulates a different origin for the Samic and Finnic words. I also checked Aikio 2002, "New and old Samoyed etymologies", which agrees with Schalin and states that the Finnish word can most easily be traced back to the reconstructed Proto-Finno-Ugric *_täwδi_, and that the Germanic origin word would apparently require overly complex sound changes.


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