# When Did Korean Speakers Lose Faith in The Suffix -(이)라고?



## slowlikemolasses

Why do some Korean speakers use a space between the quoted phrase and -(이)라고, or add quotation marks around the quoted phrase? When did the shift away from the grammatically correct use of -(이)라고 begin?


----------



## Rance

slowlikemolasses said:


> Why do some Korean speakers use a space between the quoted phrase and -(이)라고, or add quotation marks around the quoted phrase?



Because it is grammatically correct.



slowlikemolasses said:


> When did the shift away from the grammatically correct use of -(이)라고 begin?



If what you are asking is when we adopted the use of quotation mark(""), we started to use them probably after the independence when the books began to be printed in western style (horizontal writing compared to vertical writing).
Previously we used *겹낫표*(『 』) and *낫표*(「」)


----------



## slowlikemolasses

Thank you for the information, but I feel there is more to this issue than simply that a space is used because it is "grammatically correct." If I were to send a message to my friend that said "letsgotothemovies," I would be showing my _faith_ in his ability to understand my message. If using the suffix in question with a space and without one are both grammatically correct, and as you said, the reason Korean speakers use it with a space is simply for this reason, then aren't both forms used equally as often? In fact, when typing, using no space is _easier _than using a space, so why would Korean speakers use a space _at all_? I would posit that Korean speakers have over time lost faith in their readers to properly interpret the suffix without a space.

Taking all this into consideration, I would like to restate my original question.

Why do some Korean speakers use a space between the quoted phrase and -(이)라고, or add quotation marks around the quoted phrase?


----------



## Rance

Your explanation sounds like your asking why some use space instead of quotation mark.
However in your original question you seemed to be asking why people use space or quotation mark or any other aid to accentuate quote when there's already -(이)라고 in Korean.
Reason why I said it's grammatically correct is because it's necessary to have some aid to clearly state the meaning.

Let me just split up your question for easier understanding. If I misinterpret you by any means, please let me know.

1) Why do some Koreans speakers use a space between the quoted phrase and -(이)라고 instead of quotation mark?

Actually I'm not familiar with people using space as aid instead of quotation mark. 
Do you mean simple space as following? 
찰리는 어제 영화를 구경했어요 라고 말했다.
Then I would say it's inappropriate way to quote.
If not, can you kindly provide examples and the source so I can verify?


2) Why does Korean language use quotation marks around the quoted phrase when it has -(이)라고?

찰리는 “어제 영화를 구경했어요.”라고 말했다. 
Charlie said, "I watched the movie yesterday".
"찰리는 어제 영화를 구경했어요.”라고 말했다. 
(I or anyone else but Charlie) said "Charlie watched the movie yesterday."

The fact that Charlie watched the movie would be true in either case, but the subjects that's telling the story are different.
Without quotation marks, it becomes ambiguous who said what. Faith alone will not clarify the meaning.


----------



## slowlikemolasses

These are the questions I asked, in two parts. 

1. Why do some Korean speakers use a space between the quoted phrase and -(이)라고, or

2. add quotation marks around the quoted phrase?



> 1) Why do some Koreans speakers use a space between the quoted phrase and -(이)라고 instead of quotation mark?



Again, you are assuming I am asking something that I'm not. 

Were the two other styles of quotation marks used exactly as quotation marks are used today? I've seen them used to show titles, but not like quotation marks. If -(이)라고 was all that was available to Korea speakers before the introduction of quotation mark, how was this problem of long quotations solved?


----------



## Rance

1. Why do some Korean speakers use a space between the quoted phrase and -(이)라고



> Do you mean simple space as following?
> 찰리는 어제 영화를 구경했어요 라고 말했다.
> Then I would say it's inappropriate way to quote.
> If not, can you *kindly* provide examples and the source so I can verify?



Again you are not helping me help you out. 
Too much information is almost always better than too little information as it leaves no room for assumption.

2. Why do some Korean speakers add quotation marks around the quoted phrase?

I answered.

Now you ask third question which I knew you'd ask soon.
3. How was ancient Korean language like before the introduction of quotation mark?

Just to further confuse you out, spacing between words were only introduced in 19th century and fully formulated in 1933.
Anyhow.... I'm not that much familiar with ancient Korean language.
If I can find some information, I'll be glad to share with you later on, but I'm afraid it may not be easy task.
Hopefully someone else with more knowledge would be able to help you out on this one.


----------



## slowlikemolasses

> Do you mean simple space as following?
> 찰리는 어제 영화를 구경했어요 라고 말했다.



Did you add this section? Yes, that's what I mean. Thanks.


----------



## Rance

Ok, here's a few information that may answer your question.

*1. Spacing (띄어쓰기)*

You didn't ask, but you may also find interesting and it's somewhat same topic as it involves how to remove ambiguity in Korean language and relay the correct message.
Spacing was most likely introduced by the Western missionaries who translated the Bible into Korean in 19th century.
However Korean language did have something similar called 구두점 which is very similar to period except it separates every phrase.
(Why not use space? Probably because it could save space and paper was expensive.)




As you can see in the image I listed, you will find dots on the right side.

However writings which include both Korean and Hanja did not have ambiguity issues as meaning is straightforward, spacing was not an issue.

Example:

서울가서방을구하시오
Above sentence has dual meaning.

a. 서울 가서 방을 구하시오. Go to Seoul and find a room to stay.
서울가서房을求하시오.

b. 서울 가 서방을 구하시오. Go to Seoul and marry a guy.
서울가書房을求하시오.

As we started to use less and less Hanja, spacing was soon adopted as paper became cheaper and it's more visually accentuated than dots.

*2. Quotation Marks( 따옴표)*

Medieval Korean language did have something comparable to spacing between words to avoid ambiguity.
As in example I gave you in previous reply, not using quotation marks would cause trouble in modern Korean language.
How did Korean ancestors circumvent this problem? (I believe this is your main question.)

The solution seems that they used different writing style. (This is my personal observation from going over old novels and anyone please correct me if wrong)
If -(이)라고, -하니, -하고,-하거늘, -하더라 would indicate an end of a quoted phrase, 가로되, 왈 indicates a start of the quote.

Example)

찰리는 어제 영화를 구경했어요라고 말했다.
This would be interpreted as:
(He or whoever not Charlie) said, "Charlie saw the movie yesterday".

If you want to say that Charlie said the quote, then:
찰리가로되 어제 영화를 구경했어요.

Although there was no quotation marks in old Korean language, there were ways to indicate the start and the end of a quote to clarify the meaning.
Probably with the adoption of quotation marks, 가로되, 가라사대, 왈 which indicate the start of a quote are no longer used in modern Korean.

I'll add part of 홍길동전, one of old novel written in medieval Korean.

길동이 웃으며 *가로되*,   "내 장차 발군(發軍)하리니 그대              등은 지휘대로 하라."

*하고*, 청포(靑袍) 흑대(黑帶)의 나귀를 타고 종자(從者)              수인을 데리고 나가며 *가로되*,

  "내 그 절에 가 동정을 보고 오리라."
*하고* 가니 완연한 재상가(宰相家) 자제라. 그 절에              들어가 먼저 수승(首僧)을 불러 *이르되*,

  "나는 경성 홍 판서 댁 자제라.              이 절에 와 글공부하러 왔거니와, 명일에 백미(白米) 이십 

  석을 보낼 것이니 음식을 정히 차리면              너희들도 한가지로 먹으리라."
*하고* 사중(寺中)을 두루 살펴보며 후일을 기약하고              동구(洞口)를 나오니 제승(諸僧)이 기뻐하더라.


Above is rewritten in modern format, but even you remove the quotation marks it's still clear who is saying what.
I accentuated the words which indicate the start and the end a quote.


----------



## slowlikemolasses

> If -(이)라고, -하니, -하고,-하거늘, -하더라 would indicate an end of a quoted phrase, 가로되, 왈 indicates a start of the quote.



From your statement above it seems like -(이)라고 is _inherently_ unreliable on its own. Perhaps a better question would have been "Have Korean speakers _ever_ had faith (Yes, faith) in -(이)라고?"


----------

