# in the school/at school?



## Carol89

What's the difference between in the school and at school?

There're Americans in the school.
I'm at school.


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## Vanda

Carolzinha de Deus, é só procurar os usos das preposições in e at.

Usos de in e at.


in/on/at

in/at school

in, on, at

in, at, on


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## curlyboy20

When someone is physically at a school taking a class you say, "he's at school". And when someone is regularly going to school, you say that such person is "in school".


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## ignisvandevol

em termos de fala, os dois são correctos, depende apenas da maneira que queres falar, in the school é uma coisa mais definitiva espacialmente. "Onde estás?" "Estou in the school"l, enquanto "at school" é aceitável dizer sobre o tempo que estás na escola "Ontem quando estava na escola (at school) aconteceu isto."


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## Ariel Knightly

Eu sempre entendi essa questão da tradução de _na escola_ do mesmo jeito que o Curlyboy. _At _traduziria a ideia de localização e _in _de situação. Mas será que o assunto se encerra aí? Gostaria de saber o que vocês pensam sobre o uso de _at _e _in _nesses exemplos que encontrei sem contexto aqui*.

 1) She didn't do very well at school.
2) Their son's at the school near the station. 
3) Are the children still in school?  
4) the cleverest child in the school

Seria possível trocar _at _por _in _em 1? Isso implicaria alguma mudança de sentido? E quanto a trocar _in _por _at _em 4? Qual seriam os sentidos de 2 e 3, localização ou situação? O que vocês acham?

*Esse site me parece uma espécie de cópia do _Oxford Collocations Dictionary_, de modo que pode ser bastante útil para aqueles que não possuem esse dicionário.


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## Istriano

In se usa com _*in high school *(colégio),* in grammar school *(ginásio), *in law school* (faculdade de direito), *in medical school *(faculdade de medicina)...

_


> In law school you don't just sit and take notes; you are expected to participate.


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## kirakuni8

Ariel's 4 sentences sound perfect, but I think I would say "smartest" and not "cleverest", although both are perfectly acceptable. 
Note that you can also say "to not do well IN school"


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## Ariel Knightly

kirakuni8 said:


> Ariel's 4 sentences sound perfect, but I think I would say "smartest" and not "cleverest", although both are perfectly acceptable.
> Note that you can also say "to not do well IN school"


Thank you, Kirakuni. Those sentences were taken from a dictionary, you know. But, in terms of meaning, what differences do you see between _at _and _in _in those examples? Do you know why _at _is used in 1 and 2 and _in _in 3 and 4?


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## kirakuni8

To be honest, I can't think of any reason why we use at in some sentences and in in others. 
If even a native speaker isn't sure why, it's best to memorize a couple of examples (like the ones you provided) and to pay close attention to the prepositions used in the books you read. If you are surprised when you come accross a sentence that uses in instead of at, or at instead of in, make a mental note of the sentence or better yet, write it down and review all of the particularly interesting grammatical structures from time to time. Soon enough, you'll develop a native English speaker's intuition and you won't need to think of grammar rules (but in this case, I don't think there is a grammar rule). 
If you guys have any specific questions (for example, if you have a sentence but you are not sure if you should use in or at), feel free to send me a message or reply to this thread.


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## Ariel Knightly

Thank you, Kirakuri. I'll do what you said. 


kirakuni8 said:


> (but in this case, I don't think there is a grammar rule)


There must be a rule; there always is, even when we're still unaware of it.


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## kirakuni8

I have some more sample sentences (I made them myself )

1) There are over 500 students at this school.
2) He never paid attention in school/at school.
3) I work at this school. (in this school is okay too, but I would say at this school)


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## kirakuni8

Ariel Knightly said:


> Thank you, Kirakuri. I'll do what you said.
> There must be a rule; there always is, even when we're still not aware of it.



I'm not sure, because with French, there are many situations where there is no rule. 
You could be right though, because native English-speakers don't usually study English grammar.


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## Ariel Knightly

What do you think of this contrast? Does it make sense?

"I never paid attention."
"When?"
"*In *school."

"I never paid attention."
"Where?"
"*At *school."

"Are the children still *in *school?"
"No, they have all finished school."

"Are the children still *at *school?"
"No, they're at the park."

As for _*the *school_, could you say that _in _and _at _are interchangeable whenever a determiner - such as an article or a possessive - precedes _school_?

_I work in_/_at *this *school._
_How do I ask someone in_/_at *my *school for weed?_

Is this correct? What do you think?


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## Nonstar

They say there are more exceptions than rules, in English.


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## Ariel Knightly

As regras podem ser complexas e às vezes bem menos abrangentes do que gostaríamos; mas ainda assim existem, por mais que não tenhamos consciência delas. Sem as regras, temos apenas um glossário, e não uma língua. Ou vocês acham mesmo que os nativos memorizam uma preposição para cada realização concreta de _school_? Uma vez que seria impossível fazer uma lista de todas as frases da língua - porque as possibilidades são obviamente infinitas -, fica claro que o que governa a escolha entre _at _e _in _diante de _school _é alguma regra que, por enquanto, ainda não sei explicar. E ela é aplicada intuitivamente pelos falantes nativos, tendo eles consciência dela ou não. O que eu estou tentando fazer aqui é entender essa regra, de modo que nós, não nativos, consigamos utilizar adequadamente essas construções.


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## Nonstar

Mas assim está um tanto utópico, e matemático, Ariel. Se nem a moça soube te dizer... Se nem as "regras" que puseram ali em cima foram suficientes, só Deus é que sabe.


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## Ariel Knightly

Certamente outras pessoas além de Deus devem saber também. Minha esperança é que alguma apareça logo para acabar com a minha angústia... . Sabe, acho normal um nativo não entender o funcionamento de sua própria língua; afinal, ele a adquire naturalmente, sem precisar aprendê-la, como fazem os não nativos. O fato de ele saber utilizar a língua não significa que o nativo saiba necessariamente muita coisa *sobre *ela.


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## Nonstar

Será que não é um caso para o English forum? 
(Esse smiley parece um drogado, não gosto muito dele, muito cínico)


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## Ariel Knightly

Poderia ser, mas a má vontade canina do povo do EO me desanima.


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## Nonstar

Ha hai! Vamos abrir as portas da esperança!


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## Istriano

From the Merriam Webster's Learner's Dictionary:

_He learned to play the flute at/in school._(school = escola)
_She is away at school. _(school = colégiou ou faculdade)

*be in school* (ainda ser estudante):


> (US) My parents won't let me get a job while I'm in school. = (Brit) My parents won't let me get a job while I'm at school. [=while I am a student in a school]  ▪ Stay in school and get your diploma.  ▪ He never did well in school.



http://www.learnersdictionary.com/search/school 



*high school*:



> he's in high school. = She goes to high school. = She attends high school.  ▪ He graduated from Manchester High School.



http://www.learnersdictionary.com/search/high school
_
be at school_ = estar na escola, no colégio, faculdade (como edifícios)
_be in school_ = estudar/frequentar/cursar
_
She's still at school. She hasn't come home.
She's still in school. Her parents help her financially.
_


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## Ariel Knightly

Istriano, what do you think about the 4 examples I left in my post (#5)? Why do you think _in _can be used in the place of _at _in 1? Is the boy at school right now in 2? Why _in *the *school_ in 4? Are _in _and _at _interchangeable when a determiner precedes _school_? Do you agree with what I wrote in #13?


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## Istriano

1) She didn't do very well at school.  _Uso britânico que está saindo de moda: Veja aqui:
_http://books.google.com/ngrams/grap...start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=5&smoothing=3
(Compare US English e UK English)
2) Their son's at the school near the station. _At + edifício_ [the = para especificar: at+ the school near the station]
3) Are the children still in school?  Eu interpreto como: _ainda estão frequentando..._
4) the cleverest child in the school _In+ instituição_ (in the school = nesta/nessa escola).


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## Ariel Knightly

And what do you think about Kirakuni's examples in #11? Why would _in _and _at _be interchangeable in 2 and 3 but not in 1?


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## Istriano

1) There are over 500 students at this school.  AT = specific institution
2) He never paid attention in school/at school. *
3) I work at this school. (in this school is okay too, but I would say at this school)                  AT = especific institution

*
É como 





> He learned to play the flute at/in school


http://www.learnersdictionary.com/search/school

_He's at school._  location/building (está na escola)
_He's in school. _institution (está frequentando)
_He's at this school._ specified institution (+sometimes specific location including outer parts of the school, like playgrounds)
_He's in this school._ specified location/building. (=in this school building, excluding outer parts of the school, like playgrounds) 

You can always force this usage in physical contexts:_ in this/the school = in this/the school building_
(_At the school_ includes _in the school_ )

_He's at high school_. building (está no colégio) mas normalmente se diria simplesmente: _at school_
_He's in high school._ institution (está frequentando)
_He's away at high school. _specified institution (frequentando um colégio fora da sua cidade)

_He's at medical school._ building (está na faculdade de medicina, no edifício), uso raro
_He's in medical school. _institution (cursando)
_He's at the Harvard medical school_ specified institution


Veja aqui
_he's in high school, he's in the high school, he's at the high school, he's at high school _ 
Houve uma neutralização, e hoje em dia se prefere IN HIGH SCHOOL:
(but people would use: _He's still at school, he hasn't arrived home_ even if he is at high school, you don't normally specify it: he's at high school)

_in high school / law school / medical school _(general) ~ _at the best high school, at the Harvard law/medical school _(specified)

http://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=at+high+school%2C+at+the+high+school%2C+in+high+school%2C+in+the+high+school&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=5&smoothing=3


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## Ariel Knightly

But he said "in this school is okay too" in 3. Why isn't it also okay in 1? Why have I found so many hits for both "in my school" and "at my school" on Google?


> *How do i ask someone in my school for weed?*
> how should i approach someone in my school,...


(Here)


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## Istriano

*My *é uma especificação.
Segundo a minha lista (casos 3 e 4)



> _1. He's at school._  location/building
> _2. He's in school. _institution
> _3. He's at this/the/our school._ specified institution (+sometimes specific location including outer parts of the school, like playgrounds)
> _4. He's in this/the/our school._ specified location/building (=in this school building)



1) Primeira interpretação:

In my school = físico (edifício)
At my school = não físico (instituição)


2) Segunda interpretação:

In my school = in the school building of my school (excluding outer parts like playgrounds)
At my school = including even the outer parts like playgrounds

Por isso normalmente não se diz

*''In my school we play...'*'   [49 ocorrências no Google (a maioria delas escritas pelos falantes não nativos)]
e sim: *''At my school we play...*'' [1,870,000 ocorrências no Google]


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## Ariel Knightly

Pedi ajuda ao Alxmrphi, que se não é o maior, é certamente um dos maiores contribuidores que esse fórum já teve. Vou colar aqui o que ele me respondeu:


> We have 'institutions' and this includes things like  hospitals/schools/offices and it also includes things like being at work  and at home. You don't have to use the article when you're tying in the  main reason for the existence of that institution into the meaning. So a  hospital is there because people are sick, so if you say someone is 'in  hospital', then it means they are sick and need treatment. To contrast  this with somebody just being in the hospital (perhaps visiting) you use  'at the hospital' where 'at' is just used for location. If someone is  sick you can still say 'in the hospital', but this can mean both the  earlier meanings, i.e. being sick or visiting. It's not clear.
> 
> 
> Then with 'school', you can say 'at school' and 'in school' for  BOTH asking about whether they are physically located there or whether  they still attend the school. So examples of these are:
> 
> 
> Why don't you have the kids with you?
> They're still* at *school. I pick them up at three o'clock.
> 
> 
> Why don't you have the kids with you?
> They're still *in* school. I pick them up at three o'clock.
> 
> 
> How old are your kids? Are they still* in *school?
> No, they graduated last year.
> 
> 
> How old are your kids? Are they still *at *school?
> No, they graduated last year.
> 
> 
> Now when you add the definite articles to them (at the school/in the school) things start to become a bit more specific.
> Mainly  because you're using an article, this specifies a specific place, a  specific school and therefore the idea of 'an institution to attend/use'  is not possible any more (notice that for the hospital example above  there is an exception, using the article is still fine for this  meaning). But with 'school' you are only referring to the physical  location, and I believe this is the norm with other institutions. Since  you're talking about being physically located there the preposition 'at'  is the most normal example but examples with 'in' are not to be  considered weird, it's just the contexts you would use them in are a lot  less than those in which you would use the preposition 'at'. So if a  husband has come to pick his wife up from work and she is a teacher, she  might want another teacher to get in the car so her husband can give  her a lift home and the husband can ask "Where is the other teacher you  want to drop off?" you have to use 'Oh she's still* in *the school' (physical location). Because the husband and the wife are there now you can't say '*at* the school' because they are already there, i.e. on the grounds. This then means inside the school building somewhere.


Muito obrigado, Alxmrphi. Nós sentiremos muito a sua falta.


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## Ariel Knightly

Eu:





> Does that article thing apply to any kind of determiner? I mean, would _in my school _and _at my school_  necessarily have two different meanings? Is this example I found on the  internet necessarily talking about the inside of the school?
> 
> _How do i ask someone in my school for weed? _
> 
> Does this sentence sound natural? Would replacing _in _by _at _give it a different meaning?


Alxmrphi:





> Yeah that sounds natural, with 'my' it's like 'somebody who attends',  though I guess if you said 'There is a person standing in my school' you  could force the meaning of the 'situated in' (but might not actually  attend), but that's more like a peripheral meaning where the other parts  really make it obvious which one it is.


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## Istriano

E em inglês americano fica como?


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## Ariel Knightly

Acho que é mais ou menos como você explicou acima. Mas seria bom se a gente conseguisse um linguista americano para confirmar tudo isso.


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## kirakuni8

Ariel, I think you might be right, because all of your sentences made perfect sense (I'm talking about post #13)


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## Ariel Knightly

kirakuni8 said:


> Ariel, I think you might be right, because all of your sentences made perfect sense (I'm talking about post #13)


 Kirakuni, what do you think of what was quoted in posts #28 and #29? Is that different from what happens in American English?


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## kirakuni8

No, I think it's the same in American English


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## Ariel Knightly

kirakuni8 said:


> No, I think it's the same in American English


But would you have any kind of preference for _at _over _in _in the following example?

_Why don't you have the kids with you?
 They're still *[?]* school. I pick them up at three o'clock.
_
I got two informants here who picked _at _as the preposition they would use in this context. Are both _in _and _at _really possible here?


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## uchi.m

Ariel Knightly said:


> _Why don't you have the kids with you?
> They're still *[?]* school. I pick them up at three o'clock._


Óia moço, parece qué at.


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## Ariel Knightly

Pronto. Finalmente consegui as respostas que queria. Pelo que me foi explicado aqui, a coisa funciona mais ou menos da seguinte maneira:

1) at the school where you study or teach -> _*at *achool_

_. I'm still *at* school; I'll be home at 5:00._

2) at school during study time -> _*in *school_ (AmE), _*at *school_ (BrE)

_. Why don't you have the kids with you?
They're still *in */ *at *school. I pick them up at three o'clock_

_. I can't talk to you now because I'm *in */* at *school._

3) A stage of life when one still goes to school - _*in *school_ (AmE) _*at *school _(BrE)

_. What do you do?
I’m still *in */ *at *school._

Nos exemplos em 2, _at _também seria comum em inglês americano, já que seria possível ler aquelas frases com o sentido 1. 

Bom, quem tiver interesse pode encontrar a discussão completa no link que deixei acima. Lá também foram mencionados outros casos e tudo foi explicado em mais detalhe.


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