# Members' Sex in Profiles



## Arrius

Could members writing their profiles be encouraged in the rules/instructions to state their sex, as one frequently doesn't know which personal pronoun to use.
In the Romance languages, one can at least use the same possessive pronouns for either sex but not in the Germanic ones (or Arabic), and it is frustrating to find this information missing in the profile when trying to avoid offence if using the wrong one. Of course, this cannot be made compulsory as it might be considered politically incorrect by some, but at least it could be stated that, and briefly why, it is a good idea.
Also (a legitimate addition since I am still talking about profiles), could new members be asked to spell the names of the languages they speak or are learning with a capital letter in English, which also applies to the country they come from, otherwise it gives a bad example to learners?


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## Trisia

Hello,

There's been a lengthy discussion about this quite a while ago: *Sex in profile + download threads*. 

I don't think it should be in the rules. Those need to be as few and clear as possible, the mods are having a hard time making people read that short list anyway. It would mean making a whole new paragraph explaining that once you give this info there's no turning back, that it's optional but we like knowing (newbie: "Why? What's it to ya? Should I provide dental records as well?"), etc.

And the rules already mention that _you shouldn't lie about it_ (rule #14). 

I sometimes address people the wrong way -- and I remember one case in which a forer@, probably exasperated by my constant blunders, started stating their gender in _every post_, so I'm all for people giving away that piece of info (especially now, that profile pages can no longer be viewed by anyone but forum members).

About the consequences of not knowing: I think that people who choose not to disclose such information will not feel offended by an honest mistake. It may even please them that you didn't 'figure them out.'

The cool part is when they ask for a translation and you mess it up because of that...


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## Arrius

_Hisser_ was once proposed as a bi-sexual possessive pronoun - it would probably have to be _herris_ now - but never caught on. _They_ and _their_ used in practice for a person whose sex is unknown or could be either ("Every pupil should close _their _desk before_ they_ leave the classroom"), is useful but it has never been officially approved as grammatically correct. In French and other Romance languages there is also the problem of adjective agreement even when you are using the second person singular or its equivalent. 
Perhaps a little note in brackets by the sex tick box on the registration form saying _in order to address_ _you correctly,_ or something similar, would help.

I have now read the old thread on the same topic provided by *Trisia *and am still of the opinion that it is useful to our written exchanges if one knows the sex of one's interlocutor, not only for the reasons given above by Trisia and myself, but also because there are still ancient males like myself who have been brought up to treat ladies with greater deference and delicacy though arguing on an equal footing, and if that is politically incorrect, I am not bothered. Also, although I personally haven't divulged my own age, which is considerable, I hesitate, to shoot down in flames, and reconsider, the arguments of people over fifty as they have been around long enough to know what they are talking about. Let me hasten to add that I expect no similar considerateness towards myself.


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## Trisia

I use "they" and "their" a lot, without thinking about it much, but for some reason I always cringe when I see them written by someone else (isn't that dumb).



Arrius said:


> Perhaps a little note in brackets by the sex tick box on the registration form saying _in order to address_ _you correctly,_ or something similar, would help.



I really like this idea.


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## ewie

I'm all for the idea of _strenuously encouraging_ members (new and old) to publish their true gender *and* age *and* country of origin *and* native language *and *... _nothing else_. (To be honest, it beats me why so many people _don't_ publish this information ~ as if the anonymity of th'internet wasn't enough _already_ ...)
When I first arrived at WRF, I was keen to participate in _all_ the forums pertaining to _all_ the languages I have an interest in (Eng, Fr, Sp, Port). However, I soon found myself spending so much time (in the last 3 of these) trying to devise ways to avoid directly addressing folk ~ _tu/tú/vosotros/o senhor, adj.masc. or fem.? _~ for fear of causing offence, *because I didn't know who/what I was talking to* ... well, I don't need to finish that sentence, I'll 'do a Trisia' on it


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## Etcetera

I would welcome such an option - as a native speaker of Russian.

Most of the time, however, you can be able to guess a person's gender - from their avatar or from this or that post of theirs. And anyway, I don't think you should feel offended at being addressed in the wrong form. I certainly woulnd't - I'd just point out that I'm a female, and add a smiley.


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## Cagey

> About the consequences of not knowing: I think that people who choose not to disclose such information will not feel offended by an honest mistake.


Trisia is right, of course.  Or should be.

To clarify: I am someone who does _not _supply this information.


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## Vanda

> ...those need to be as few and clear as possible, t*he mods are having a hard time making people read that short list anyway. I*t would mean making a whole new paragraph explaining that once you give this info there's no turning back, that it's optional but we like knowing...



Trisia has a good point above! If we were lucky enough to make people telling their native language, giving context, reading the basic rules, wouldn't it be a paradise here?! And the mods would have more time to do other things like: reading and participating in threads.


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## Arrius

Pictures don't always provide clues, especially monsters or a couple of dogs (very beautiful dogs, nevertheless), and some of the countries mentioned are apocryphal, or the native language (e.g. _gibberish_) not official.


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## Topsie

Etcetera said:


> I would welcome such an option - as a native speaker of Russian.
> 
> Most of the time, however, you can be able to guess a person's gender - from their avatar or from this or that post of theirs. And anyway, I don't think you should feel offended at being addressed in the wrong form. I certainly woulnd't - I'd just point out that I'm a female, and add a smiley.


My sentiments entirely!
Though I must say it is nice to know a little about who's who!


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## TrentinaNE

Arrius said:


> the native language (e.g. _gibberish_) not official.


I believe the moderators are making a concerted effort to require posters to give accurate information about native language, because this datum is so vital. If someone has slipped through the cracks, you might try reporting a post by that person and bringing this issue to the moderators' attention.

I disagree, however, that sex needs to be a required field. Some people like to leave as little information that might help others identify them as possible in online forums.  And it takes only a little creativity to craft a response suitable for someone whose sex is unknown. 

Elisabetta


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## Mirlo

Etcetera said:


> I would welcome such an option - as a native speaker of Russian.
> 
> Most of the time, however, you can be able to guess a person's gender - from their avatar or from this or that post of theirs. And anyway, I don't think you should feel offended at being addressed in the wrong form. I certainly woulnd't - I'd just point out that I'm a female, and add a smiley.


 
I agree with you 100%. I personally experience the problem of the "gender", I'm a girl, but my avatar and my real name sounds like a guy "Myrlo" is my real name. In ocassions when they call me a "he" I just politely remind them than  I'm a "she". 

Saludos,


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## Robert_Hope

When addressing people, I just quote them and/or use their name.

Eg. "I think what [member] is trying to say here is..." for example.

By making sex a compulsory bit of information, you could risk the sexist members here viewing the information differently. I often wonder why age is important - if a member is 60, is doesn't mean they have 55 years of experience in a certain language. They could have started an evening class last night!

This forum is for educational perposes so I don't really see how people's gender is relevant to vocabulary or grammar of different languages (although, obviously, in some languages women say things differently to men), It would, however, make the threads a bit more personal and friendly.... but there's a fine line between educational, educational and friendly, and a dating site!!!


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## TimLA

Robert_Hope said:


> This forum is for educational perposes so I don't really see how people's gender is relevant to vocabulary or grammar of different languages


 
Because in Spanish and Italian (and perhaps other romance languages) it makes a difference in how you address and greet people.

You would say "benvenuto" (welcome) to a male and "benvenuta" (welcome) to a female, and the endings would change in a variety of other contexts also depending on the word and context. If we cannot determine the gender, we must write "benvenut@" which covers all bases.

I opened a thread in "Italian Only" in an attempt to learn a variety of ways that natives might determine the gender of someone based on their prose.
I found that it is often very difficult.

I only wish to be polite, and not look like an idiot (any more that I might normally look).


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## ascension

Robert_Hope said:


> I often wonder why age is important - if a member is 60, is doesn't mean they have 55 years of experience in a certain language. They could have started an evening class last night!
> 
> This forum is for educational perposes so I don't really see how people's gender is relevant to vocabulary or grammar of different languages (although, obviously, in some languages women say things differently to men)



Well, I don't necessarily think it should be mandatory, but maybe it should somehow be encouraged. Language does indeed vary not only by native language and location but also by age, sex, class, and many other factors. Of course we can't have a full biography of each and every forer@, but it's helpful to have as much information as possible.

It's helpful for forer@s to know I speak AE because my suggestions might not be appropriate in Britain. And it's helpful for them to know I'm a 22 year-old female because my suggestions might not be appropriate for people of a different age or gender.


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## Cagey

TimLA said:


> If we cannot determine the gender, we must write "benvenut@" which covers all bases.
> 
> I opened a thread in "Italian Only" in an attempt to learn a variety of ways that natives might determine the gender of someone based on their prose.
> I found that it is often very difficult.
> 
> I only wish to be polite, and not look like an idiot (any more that I might normally look).



I am someone who does not provide this information (see post #7).  Inclusive references, such as _benvenut@_, seem to me a good solution.  Other forms of circumlocution are available, and this is what I use when I am faced with the same problem.

However, I could hardly blame someone who used the wrong gender in referring to me, or take offense.   Why would someone who is not giving out this information expect you to deduce it from their prose?

On the other hand, I once mistook the gender of the avatar for the gender of the forero and mis-addressed someone who does state his gender.  Now that _was_ embarrassing.   He was very gracious, though, when he pointed out my error.


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## Forero

Perhaps the heading for the item could be something like "(Grammatical/preferred) gender of username".

I have to say I find it sometimes disconcerting that some avatars seem to be username personas and others seem to be representations of username personas' significant others or pictures of favorite animals or things.  I hope "Panjandrum" merely likes orangutans.   I can just imagine myself visiting Northern Ireland, wondering about the likelihood of a chance encounter with a friendly, knowledgeable, level-headed, BE-speaking auburn-haired ape.


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## Nunty

I find it very helpful to know the age of the person who is suggesting a response and I think that my age is helpful to people who read my responses. At 53, I grew up in a different cultural and linguistic world than someone who is 25 today. Conventions change, slang changes, polite forms change and the definition of linguistic registers change.

In Hebrew I can often know the sex of a person (not "gender", which is something else) from their posts because our verbs have gender (not "sex"), as well as number and person. In other languages, I take my best guess if it is not indicated, and let it go. If the person doesn't want to say, they can't really take offense if I guess wrong, as has been said above.


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## TrentinaNE

> It's helpful for forer@s to know I speak AE because my suggestions might not be appropriate in Britain.


The first statement above is why the *Native of* field has been deemed vital.  If you think there is likely to be an AE/BE difference about a topic, it's also worth specifying that your answer applies to your version of English, but you're not sure about others (though if it doesn't, an indignant speaker of another version will usually come along to set the record straight ). 

However, if one addresses the *question* in the post, rather than the author of the post, then I don't think that knowing the author's sex is important.  E.g., Question: How do I say "I am tired" in Italian?  Answer:  Sono stanco (stanca, if female).  

If you know the writer's sex, and give only the answer that's appropriate for him/her, then the answer would actually be less useful to WRF at large.  

When I wish to welcome a newcomer who hasn't revealed his/her sex, I just write Benvenuto/a.  This sometimes prompts a subsequent clarification, but not always.



> And it's helpful for them to know I'm a 22 year-old female because my suggestions might not be appropriate for people of a different age or gender.


I'm more interested in age, for the reasons others have cited, but I don't think it's a vital piece of information.  Again, posters can be more pro-active in their responses by pointing out that the tenor of a certain response might depend on the age of the speaker, the person addressed, or both. 

Elisabetta (51, female, and opinionated )


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## Arrius

I agree that providing this information should be optional, and that, say, a forera who admits to being 18 and female, especially if she displays a nubile avatar, does run a certain risk of attracting unwelcome attention from undesirables.
However, it is difficult to eliminate gender entirely from these fora: in Portuguese, even saying thank you (obrigado/a) will give you away!


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## LV4-26

I mentionned my (male) sex in my profile only because of my avatar.
I don't mind being mistaken for a female, though. It's just that I wouldn't like others to feel embarassed.

As for others' sex, when in doubt, I always find a way to bypass the problem.

Having said that, I agree it's more convenient when you know whom you're addressing. But I don't find it a vital issue.


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## Outsider

When I don't know the gender of a poster, I assume male by default, since men are usually more touchy about being mistaken for women than the reverse. 

I trust that, if the poster feels strongly enough about the matter, she will correct my honest mistake. But this has never happened to me in this forum. No doubt those who feel strongly about it already state their gender in their profile.

I've been mistaken for a woman in other message boards. It left me wondering whether I have an especially feminine writing style, but I was not offended. In the Internet, no one can hear you roar.


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## EmilyD

Perhaps the title of this thread could be reworded slightly--

e.g. Members' _Genders_ in Profile

or

Sex of Member in Profile

It occurs to me: "*Members' Sex in Profiles*" could be easily misconstrued.

_Nomi_


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