# trip/journey/ excursion



## daniar

Hello native English speakers. 
I have a question about the use of the words trip, journey and excursion. I was doing some exercises in Destination B2 by Macmillan and I'd like you to see this question: 
I always enjoy our school ...... to France. 
A excursion           C trip
B journey               D travel
Well, my answer was C and it matches the one in the key but why can't we say 'a school excursion' - I've seen this expression on the Net? I also read in the Yahoo Answers that trip is neutral, it can be used both for short and long distances, but journey can be used when talking about really long distances, about epic, long trips;journey can be used for regular trip, e.g. the ones to work(is it correct?). Then why don't we use journey when it's clear from the sentence above it's a trip happening regularly? I was quite surprised to see that some people explain 'trip' and 'excursion' defining it as 'a short journey'. But journey already implies ' a long trip' and wasn't 'trip' universal - we can say 'round - the - world trip and round - the - world journey). What about the phrase 'long journey'- isn' t a journey already a long trip?I'm sorry for asking so much but these things make me really worried and I want an answer.
Thanks in advance.


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## suzi br

In the UK we use school trip as more of a set phrase for any travel arranged by the school, from a day trip to the river to an extended international excursion. You could use the word excursion to describe a big jaunt, but we simply do not collocate school and excursion. ( I hesitate to say we do not, because someone else might come in and say they do, but I think it is rare, put it that way!)


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## DonnyB

I assume you're happy to rule out (D) *travel*, which really doesn't fit the context at all.
Option (B) *journey* only includes the actual process of travelling there and travelling back again, but not the sightseeing or whatever you did while you were in France.
Of the remaining two, (A) *excursion* would work but it does have the connotation of a leisure activity and also often, but by no means always, is of short duration (a "seaside day excursion", for example).

I suspect the real answer is that "*school trip*" (C) is a firmly established phrase (in BE at least) and is just one of those things which we native speakers instinctively pick without consciously having to think about it. Possibly recalling the "school trip to Paris" I went on when I was at school, I mentally filled in the blank correctly in your sentence before I'd seen the four options or read what your question was.


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## daniar

I see. And what about 'trip' itself - is it a short journey or is is neutral? Can we say ' a short journey ' or ' a long journey' when journey means you're travelling a really long distance?


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## daniar

DonnyB, you' re saying that journey implies 'the actual process of travelling there and travelling back again, but not the sightseeing or whatever you did while you were in France.' Is this thought only connected to the particular context or are you speaking in general?


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## DonnyB

A "trip" can be of any length or duration - from a "day trip" to a "trip to America" or even, as in your example, a "round-the-world trip".


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## DonnyB

daniar said:


> DonnyB, you' re saying that journey implies 'the actual process of travelling there and travelling back again, but not the sightseeing or whatever you did while you were in France.' Is this thought only connected to the particular context or are you talking in general?


A "journey" is defined as _the act of travelling from one place to another _(Oxford English Dictionary).


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## daniar

But why can't it include the idea of going sightseeing during the travel?


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## DonnyB

daniar said:


> But why can't it include the idea of go sightseeing during the travel?


Because then it's no longer a "journey": it's an "excursion"


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## daniar

So 'trip' means you go sightseeing and 'journey' - going from a place to place?


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## daniar

And again the question- why do 'excursion' is defined as 'a short journey' when journey already implies 'a long trip'? Why isn't it defined as a 'short trip' ?


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## DonnyB

daniar said:


> So 'trip' means you go sightseeing and 'journey' - going from a place to place?


That's the usual difference between the two, yes.


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## DonnyB

daniar said:


> And again the question- why do 'excursion' is defined as 'a short journey' when journey already implies 'a long trip'? Why isn't it defined as a 'short trip' ?


They're different words. 
An excursion isn't necessarily always short - you can have a 14-day "excursion".
 A "journey" across the North Pole could be of several months duration: a "journey" to school could be a ten-minute walk.


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## daniar

But all the sites I read say 'journey ' is a long, epic trip.


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## DonnyB

daniar said:


> But all the sites I read say 'journey ' is a long, epic trip.


Well, I daresay all the British commuters whose journey to work is delayed by cancelled trains every time it snows in this country would wholeheartedly agree with that description!   

But as I implied in post #13, a "journey" can be of any length, frequency or duration.


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## daniar

So people there probably meant that most of the time the 'journey' is a long trip. By the way, can I define journey using the word trip?


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## DonnyB

daniar said:


> So people there probably meant that most of the time the 'journey' is a long trip. By the way, can I define journey using the word trip?


As you said in your original post, people do use the two words interchangeably and possibly confusingly.  Personally I'd stick to the definition of "journey" that I gave in post #7.


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## George French

Daniar,

Note the WR dictionary has:-

 "*excursion* /ɪkˈskɜːʃən 
-ʒən/ n 

a short outward and return journey, esp for relaxation, sightseeing, etc; outing
a group of people going on such a journey"

GF..


If I go on a excursion I EXPECT TO COME BACK HOME..... within a few hours or a few days.
If I go on a journey I expect to be away from home for sometime. I have been on a journey around the world, that's not an excursion.... I have also undertaken a few "journeys" that I have not returned from:- I have "emigrated" a few times.
Trips are often only for a few hours: journeys tend to be longer. Why not look up trip  at http://www.wordreference.com/definition/trip "any tour, journey, or voyage?"
 
Outward and return journeys are often only for a very specific purpose.​​


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## suzi br

Lets face it, there are no hard and fast rules or even broad agreement about this.  You can use a variety of these words in the same contexts, except you should use trip with anything to do with school!


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## RM1(SS)

DonnyB said:


> I suspect the real answer is that "*school trip*" (C) is a firmly established phrase (in BE at least)


And in AE, as well.


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## sound shift

daniar said:


> But all the sites I read say 'journey ' is a long, epic trip.


Where are these sites based? In BrE, "journey" does not have that connotation. At the end of every game, the scoreboard at the football ground I go to says "Have a safe *journey* home" even though most of the spectators live only a few kilometres from the ground.


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## daniar

Just google 'trip or journey'.


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## sound shift

daniar said:


> Just google 'trip or journey'.


Is this meant for me, daniar? If so, my reply is that I don't need to google 'trip or journey' because I know the difference in BrE usage (I've been using both words for over fifty years), and I know from experience of this forum that for many speakers of AmE the semantic difference between these two words is a little different from the semantic difference that applies for most BrE speakers. Perhaps you have been looking at the AmE definitions of these two words.


> But as I implied in post #13, a "journey" can be of any length, frequency or duration.


DonnyB wrote this at post 15 of this thread. Like him, I speak BrE, so this definition applies to my usage as it applies to his.


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## loghrat

suzi br said:


> Lets face it, there are no hard and fast rules or even broad agreement about this.  You can use a variety of these words in the same contexts, except you should use trip with anything to do with school!



NOT in Australia! Here school students go on *excursions *if the trip is short (half/full day, maybe even up to a week), and on trips for longer periods and further afield, they also go on international study *tours*​, for example to Europe for three weeks.

Sorry to further muddy the waters (=make things vague and confusing)


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## RM1(SS)

loghrat said:


> NOT in Australia! Here school students go on *excursions *if the trip is short (half/full day, maybe even up to a week), and on trips for longer periods and further afield, they also go on international study *tours*​, for example to Europe for three weeks.


But do you call them "school excursions"?  "International study tours" is not "school tours."


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## suzi br

daniar said:


> Just google 'trip or journey'.


That's a response I consider as rude in all versions of English. It is your job to cite your own sources for your own question, especially if you are claiming a point of usage which is at odds with what native speakers are telling you.

I will cart myself off out of  this thread now.


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## estoy_lerniendo

Of all these words, _journey_ is the one that carries the most figurative value. _Journey_ often, but not always, carries the notion of one's heartfelt desire to accomplish/discover/explore/etc.


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## daniar

I'm quoting Destination B2 by Macmillan, 'journey-an occasion when you travel from one place to another, especially over a long distance'. If the journey 'can be of any length', why do they say most of the time it's over a long distance? I'm sorry - I didn't mean to be rude.


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## DonnyB

daniar said:


> I'm quoting Destination B2 by Macmillan, 'journey-an occasion when you travel from one place to another, especially over a long distance'. If the journey 'can be of any length', why do they say most of the time it's over a long distance? I'm sorry - I didn't mean to be rude.


I'm afraid I have no idea why your textbook says that: it's simply not correct to say "most of the time". 
The dictionary definition in post #7 makes no mention of it and several of us have said that we, as native speakers, have experience (and have given you examples) of the word "journey" _*not*_ being used to imply long distances at all.


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## daniar

I see. Then what about the phrase 'round-the-world journey'? Is it the same as 'round - the-word trip'? I found the same definition as the one provided in my textbook in the Macmillan Dictionary. They also say 'journey ' usually refers to long distances.  Ok, but then why do we have phrases such as  'long journey' , 'short journey ',  etc. - because obviously there are a lot of examples where 'journey' can be of any length. I think Macmillan, in the effort to be exhaustive enough, gave a not very good definition,  or at least this is my opinion. Do you agree?


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## Thomas1

I'm wondering if the definition of 'journey' provided by the textbook doesn't have its origin in the word's etymological meaning. 'journey' comes from the French word 'journée' (meaning roughly 'day'). The word 'journey' has been used to mean, among other things, 'a day of (e.g. travel)'. I imagine that travelling over one day, one can cover a long distance, which in itself can be rather subjective or change over times. For instance, to people in the Middle Ages  a distance of 30 miles could be long, and it might have taken them a day's travelling. Today, it wouldn't be so to many people given the modern means of transport.

Going back to the subject, 'school trip' indeed is a collocation as someone has already suggested:a *business/school/shopping trip*
http://oald8.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/dictionary/trip​ 
The following is what the _Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary_ says about 'trip' and 'journey':A *trip *usually involves you going to a place and back again; a *journey *is usually one-way. A *trip *is often shorter than a *journey*, although it does not have to be: _a trip to New York ◇ a round-the-world trip. _It is often short in time, even if it is long in distance. *Journey *is more often used when the travelling takes a long time and is difficult. In North American English *journey *is not used for short trips: _(British English) What is your journey to work like?_​


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## daniar

Obviously, it's a difference between BrE and AmE.


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## estoy_lerniendo

daniar said:


> Obviously, it's a difference between BrE and AmE.



Indeed. I don't think that _What is your journey to work like?_ would be a typical American utterance.


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## Loob

daniar said:


> Obviously, it's a difference between BrE and AmE.


Well, that's entirely possible.  But I also think it's a difference between dictionaries: you might want to check out the definitions of "journey" at one-look dictionaries


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## loghrat

suzi br said:


> Lets face it, there are no hard and fast rules or even broad agreement about this.  You can use a variety of these words in the same contexts, except you should use trip with anything to do with school!





RM1(SS) said:


> And in AE, as well.



Not in Australia! Here we say school excursion!


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## e42mercury

Daniar—you seem interested in a better definition of journey. I personally don't think it is a significant difference in meaning between BrE, AmE, and AuE (except in usage preferences). When I teach English, I explain the difference like this:

_*Trip*_: A general word for any type of travel (be careful not to make the common mistake "a travel"—this is incorrect). This can be a school trip, a business trip, or a vacation.
_*Journey*_: This is a type of trip that has problems, adventures, or unexpected changes. It can be short or long. If you have a terrible commute to work everyday, or the trains were unexpectedly shut down, you might call it a journey, especially if you are complaining about it or want to emphasize that it was tiring or longer than expected. Of course, it's more common that a longer trip will have more problems or unexpected changes (e.g., 7 years in Tibet). _Journey_ is also used in contexts where the trip had spiritual value or changed your life, e.g., a journey (not a trip) to the stars, etc. Something more than a simple vacation.
A round-the-world journey sounds like something you do once in your life or changed you somehow. And of course, most trips around the would involve unexpected changes!

I would agree that it is more common for a journey to be one-way, but this doesn't seem to be the important difference between the words, and isn't an absolute difference.

I would not use journey in a tourism context—if you take a vacation to the Bahamas for a week and there are no serious problems, adventures, or unexpected changes (usually what a tourist hope for), this is not a journey. Same goes for a school context. I can confirm that for AmE, we prefer "school trip" (and definitely not journey or excursion). A common collocation is "a school field trip"—for example, the teachers take the children to the museum for the day.
_
Excursion_ seems to be preferred in BrE and AuE, from what I see in this thread, but I'm no expert.
In AmE, we would say _outing _or_ day trip _for a short trip with no overnight stay or _vacation package_ for a trip that has everything organized and reserved by the agency (hotels, meals, tours, etc.).

I hope this helps a little.
Erik


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## sound shift

e42mercury said:


> _*Journey*_: This is a type of trip that has problems, adventures, or unexpected changes.


Not so for BrE, in which a journey can be routine and uneventful.


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## zaffy

sound shift said:


> Not so for BrE, in which a journey can be routine and uneventful.






DonnyB said:


> A "journey" across the North Pole could be of several months duration: a "journey" to school could be a ten-minute walk.




So in BE a teacher can ask a student: "How was your journey to school today?" and that would sound as natural as 'How was your way to school today?' right?


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## DonnyB

zaffy said:


> So in BE a teacher can ask a student: "How was your journey to school today?" and the would sound as natural as 'How was your way to school today?' right?


It's actually 'How was your *way* to school today?' which would sound odd: using "journey" there is fine (in BE).


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## pachanga7

Put another way, for me as a speaker of AmE, to say “long journey” would be redundant but it might be used for emphasis. I wouldn’t refer to a “short journey”—only a “short trip”.


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## zaffy

So these are correct, right?

"How was your journey/trip to school today?"  - BrE
"How was your trip to school today?" AmE


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## DonnyB

zaffy said:


> So these are correct, right?
> 
> "How was your journey/trip to school today?"  - BrE


In BE, a pupil's "journey to school" would mean the ordinary one they took every morning to get there for the day's lessons.

A "trip to school" somehow suggests to me that you went there for something like an open day or event of some description. It may not have that connotation for other people, though.


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## sound shift

DonnyB said:


> In BE, a pupil's "journey to school" would mean the ordinary one they took every morning to get there for the day's lessons.
> 
> A "trip to school" somehow suggests to me that you went there for something like an open day or event of some description.


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## zaffy

It was only now that I realized that BE and AM speakers will differently sense the name of a car called Dodge Journey. That's weird because this is an American car maker and the name suggests something tiring as Kentix said here:


kentix said:


> As I've said in other threads, in AE I think we (or at least a lot of us) tend to see a journey as something arduous and out of the ordinary.



So the car should have better sales in the UK  
Dodge Journey - Wikipedia


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## kentix

But a journey takes you to new and exciting places and gives you experiences you've never had before. That's something worth having.

The Dodge Trip would be a completely silly name for a car in American English.


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## daniar

This has turned out to be a most interesting discussion. Thank you all for your contributions.

PS. Special thanks to* 
DonnyB and  sound shift for giving us the "British perspective", as well as to 
e42mercury.*


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## zaffy

Do I set off on a 'trip' or 'journey' around the world? Or does either work?


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## RM1(SS)

Either. (I would say "trip".)


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