# rich cities - strong accents



## kurumin

Hi 
Why is that the richest cities in most counties, have such strong
regional accents, that is why they are so different from the ''mainstream''/standard accent?

for example:

1. NYC in the USA; NYC accent is so marked
[''standard'' American English is close to the accents used in WestUSA and Midwest, but not EastCoast and South]
(NYC accents are  ''tolerated'' only if you are rich, think The Nanny impersonator and creator _Fran Drescher_.)

2. München in Germany; they have very marked accent there
[''standard'' accent is used in the city of Hannover (by everyone)
and by middle and upper class Germans of some other Northern towns (like Hamburg)] (Accents in South and Center of Germany are very close to the official dialect, so the standard language and the dialect mix, so the final result is very marked; in North, dialects are gone (_Hannover_) or used only
by old people (Hamburg), northern dialects are closer to Dutch than to Upper German, so there is virtually no mixture between them)


3. Milan accent, it is pretty strong [therefore not many actors or singers from Milan]
[''standard'' accent is based on accents of Central Italy (Tuscany, Lazio with Rome, Umbria, Marche and the city of L'Aquila [abruzzo]; they
pronounce the open and closed  vowels in the way indicated in Italian dictionaries, and they pronounce double consonants clearly...
an Italian from Central Italy can easily obtain this newscastors/actor's
accent; this accent is prestigious, that's why 90 %  of italian actors and singers come from Central Italy (think _Monica Bellucci, Eros Ramazzotti, Andrea Bocelli, Tiziano Ferro_] (many singers and actors from Northern Italy imitate (or try to imitate) this pronunciation [_Nek_, _Jalisse_]

4.  São Paulo [Brazil], many accents, some of them very marked
[''newscasters accent'' is a mixture of more neutral features
of the São Paulo and Rio accents, and this mixture is close
to the speach of Brazilian towns of Brasília (capital), Juíz de Fora (Minas State) and Vitória (the capital of Espírito Santo state); many singers
that are from the South of Brazil use this accent too [_think Adriana Calcanhotto_]

Are there some more examples?


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## KateNicole

Just out of curiosity, have you noticed that there is also a lot of extreme poverty in the NYC area, and that both the rich and the poor share more or less the same accent?  I don't have any statistics, but I can almost guarantee you that in NYC, the lower-middle class far outnumbers the filthy rich. 

It's just due to geographic isolation and the original accent or language of the  earlier inhabitants, as far as I know.  I don't see how wealth plays into the accent.


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## Setwale_Charm

Neither I have noticed any connection between wealth of population and the accent. I can give examples of so many accents like Scouse (Liverpool area), Geordie, Glaswegian, Northern Welsh that originate from places which can hardly be considered millionaires` havens.


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## Hockey13

I can only tell you about the NYC accent because I grew up in the area. I think you hit an interesting topic here because it might just have a lot more to do with wealth than people generally think. The NYC-area accent is heavily influenced by the native languages of many of the immigrants who came to the area over the years, specifically aspects of Italian. The reason people came to New York was because that was where all the money was. The shipping routes brought everyone there and that's where there was less poverty than in their home countries. Generally speaking, two major things affect accents, in my opinion: geographic isolation and an influx into an area of different accents. If you want to limit this to "cities," the second one might tend to cover the rich cities thing. However, the largest deviation in accents might be in the areas of geographic isolation (see: Swiss German and the natural boundary that is the Alps).

Then again, there are a lot of other things that influence accents. Along the eastern seaboard of the United States from NYC up to Maine, there isn't much rhotic stuff going on. The theory I read on this was that the contact that part of the country had with Britain in the 19th century (due to it being the closest...i.e. Boston, New York, and maybe even Philadelphia) caused it to be influenced by the shift away from rhoticism in the UK whereas the rest of the US wasn't much affected by it (aside from New Orleans).


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## Hockey13

Setwale_Charm said:


> Neither I have noticed any connection between wealth of population and the accent. I can give examples of so many accents like Scouse (Liverpool area), Geordie, Glaswegian, Northern Welsh that originate from places which can hardly be considered millionaires` havens.


 
I think there is a difference between European accents and American ones. In the US, the difficult accents for people are often associated with major cities or the "south" in general. Everywhere else tends to speak what some might call a more standard accent that is shared by many. Whatever accent they might speak, it is often less deviant than the ones from big cities or the south. On the other hand, in Europe, there was often a major geographic limitation between towns even that caused there to be major accentual changes from one place and another that is just miles from it.


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## faranji

I see it a bit differently. In many countries the mainstream/standard accent tends to be that of the wealthier, more influential regions.

Speakers from most backward regions of almost every country I can think of tend to differ rather noticeably from the mainstream accent, I would say.


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## KateNicole

Wouldn't the typical immigrant who came to New York have been relatively poor anyway?  And why would wealth make the accent "stonger"?


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## KateNicole

Maybe I'm misinterpreting what Kurumin means.
By "stronger," I understand "more easily distinguished or identified."
Perhaps by "stronger" he means "more accepted or favored."
I suppose it would be natural for the middle class to prefer the accent of the high society as opposed to that of the peons like me.


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## Hockey13

KateNicole said:


> Wouldn't the typical immigrant who came to New York have been relatively poor anyway? And why would wealth make the accent "stonger"?


 
Yes. A person in southern Italy who was poor was likely to move to New York in the early 20th century for better opportunities. The Irish were starving in the potato famine and they moved to New York (and Boston) for better opportunities. What brought them there was the wealth. The accent of New York/New Jersey is heavily affected by the touches the immigrants made on English.


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## Unrealevil

When you're talking about a New York City accent, what do you mean?  Because the accents I hear are the heavy, Brooklynite accents, for example:  Whad'd'ya' think yous doin'?  I do not consider that a 'rich' accent.  To me, it seems to have morphed from an Italian-English accent.


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## faranji

On the other hand, Kurumin, don't you think Nordestino or Baiano accents are also quite 'strong' in their own way?


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## KateNicole

Hockey13 said:


> Yes. A person in southern Italy who was poor was likely to move to New York in the early 20th century for better opportunities. The Irish were starving in the potato famine and they moved to New York (and Boston) for better opportunities. What brought them there was the wealth. The accent of New York/New Jersey is heavily affected by the touches the immigrants made on English.



But what draws a person to a given region and how "strong the accent is" are two totally different things.  I'm trying very hard to find even the slightest correlation, but nothing comes to mind.  I don't see how you are connecting wealth (or lack thereof) to the type of accent in NYC.


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## MarcB

All the cities that Kurumin mentions have had a steady influx of immigrants. They naturally influence the accents.These cities have wealth and jobs so they attract people from all over these countries as well as immigrants. That obviously does not mean that everyone is wealthy.
Collectively all of the aforementioned cities have immigrants from all over the world and accents are constantly changing as new groups enter the population. However in some of the cities many residents do not have pronounced accents, especially if they are from families who have been there for generations.


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## KateNicole

Thank you, Marc.  The way you have put it makes much more sense to me!  But then when I think of New York, for example, I would almost reverse what Kurumin said.  Think about places like Spanish Harlem, the Bronx and Washington Heights where people have a strong New York accent, with a hint of a Spanish accent, because they are raised by typically _poor _Latin-American immigrants.


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## faranji

But surely those strong accents (poor) immigrants bring to rich cities must originally come from somewhere, right? Somewhere poor. Therefore, poor regions also have strong accents.


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## KateNicole

faranji said:


> But surely those strong accents (poor) immigrants bring to rich cities must originally come from somewhere, right? Somewhere poor. Therefore, poor regions also have strong accents.


Yes, it's very counterintuitive.  Also, in the US, immigrants are _everywhere_.  Even the most podunk towns of Minnesota have high Hmong populations.


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## Hockey13

KateNicole said:


> Thank you, Marc. The way you have put it makes much more sense to me! But then when I think of New York, for example, I would almost reverse what Kurumin said. Think about places like Spanish Harlem, the Bronx and Washington Heights where people have a strong New York accent, with a hint of a Spanish accent, because they are raised by typically _poor _Latin-American immigrants.


 
I'm sorry I was not clearer, but it's so obvious to me... New York is where the money is. People move to New York. A begat B...etc. The Spanish-speaking people in Spanish Harlem, the Bronx, and Washington Heights often came to New York for job opportunities and to escape being poor. The poor that they are here often trumps the poor that they were there.


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## Hockey13

faranji said:


> But surely those strong accents (poor) immigrants bring to rich cities must originally come from somewhere, right? Somewhere poor. Therefore, poor regions also have strong accents.


 
No, that does not follow logically. The people from poor areas affect the accent of a city like New York because those poor areas are often places with a _completely different language_.


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## faranji

You are right, Hockey. I was thinking of immigration inside the other countries in Kurumin's example (Brazil, Europe till very recently), where immigrants to the wealthy cities do come from poorer regions but speak the same language.


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## KateNicole

Hockey13 said:


> I'm sorry I was not clearer, but it's so obvious to me... New York is where the money is. People move to New York. A begat B...etc. The Spanish-speaking people in Spanish Harlem, the Bronx, and Washington Heights often came to New York for job opportunities and to escape being poor. The poor that they are here often trumps the poor that they were there.


It's obvious to me, as well, WHY people would move to NYC, but still, if we take the case of the immigrant who influences the accent, it is not the "truly" rich person who is dominating the accent of a rich city, which is why I was not following the argument.


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## Setwale_Charm

I think the point here is that strong accents are generally associated with less educated people and from there on appears association with poverty.


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## Nikola

faranji said:


> You are right, Hockey. I was thinking of immigration inside the other countries in Kurumin's example (Brazil, Europe till very recently), where immigrants to the wealthy cities do come from poorer regions but speak the same language.


 
What about Brazil?
*Entre 1870 e 1920 aproximadamente 5 milhões de europeus e asiáticos imigraram para o Brasil, a metade para São Paulo.*
*São Paulo é, hoje, considerada a Nova Yorque da América Latina. Em nenhum outro lugar encontram-se mais grupos étnicos independentes do que aqui.Onde os africanos e portugueses moram junto com outros grupos étnicos. O bairro japonês Liberdade, onde as placas das ruas são escritas em japonês, a pequena Itália Bela Vista (Bixiga) e o Bazar no Bom Retiro, onde judeus, islâmicos, coreanos e comerciantes cristão moram.*
 
*Germany has had immigrants since the firsht tribes enered from the east.Since WWII there have been many immigrants from Turkey Eastern Europe and Asian countries.  Italy from North Africa, Albania and other Eastern European countries.*
*So the cities have something in common. I am not sure if this was the intent of *
 Kurumin but rich cities reflex a lot of accents both foreign and domestic. As Kate says in small cities, there are immigrants but not in the magnatude of the big cities. The fact that there are immigrant and migrants in other cities does not affect the original proposal that rich cities have -strong accents. This also does not mean that these accents are shared buy the rich and poor alike. Nor does it imply that these are "posh accents"


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## faranji

You're most right, Nikola. Thanks for your examples. If not the Japanese, the Italians must've definetely influenced the accent of São Paulo. However, in my humble view, many poor, secluded regions all over the world with no immigration whatsoever could also be said to have pretty strong accents. So the opposite argument (ie. connection between poorness and strong accent), based on a similarly cherry-picked set of examples, could probably hold too.


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## Grop

In France accents are regional, they are not caused by immigrations. Cities that are famous for strong accents are clearly related to the dialects that were spoken before French: Toulouse and Marseille in (southern) occitan France for instance.

(I suspect Milano and Munchen may have special accents for similar historical reasons rather than due to late immigration).

I think accents tend to vanish in favor of the mainstream Paris accent, except in large communities which have some cultural influence on their people.

I also think intern immigration (French people leaving some area to an other one) tends to blend local accents and makes it all sound like in Paris.

Poor people travel less than richer ones: popular cities with much industry and poverty are less influenced by intern immigration.

I seriously doubt that, in a country such as France, foreigners have much influence on accents (except maybe in small urban areas, not whole regions).


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## Setwale_Charm

Grop said:


> In France accents are regional, they are not caused by immigrations. Cities that are famous for strong accents are clearly related to the dialects that were spoken before French: Toulouse and Marseille in (southern) occitan France for instance.
> 
> (I suspect Milano and Munchen may have special accents for similar historical reasons rather than due to late immigration).
> 
> I think accents tend to vanish in favor of the mainstream Paris accent, except in large communities which have some cultural influence on their people.
> 
> I also think intern immigration (French people leaving some area to an other one) tends to blend local accents and makes it all sound like in Paris.
> 
> Poor people travel less than richer ones: popular cities with much industry and poverty are less influenced by intern immigration.
> 
> I seriously doubt that, in a country such as France, foreigners have much influence on accents (except maybe in small urban areas, not whole regions).


 
 What about external immigrants: people of Arabic, Turkish, African origin?


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## kurumin

KateNicole said:


> Maybe I'm misinterpreting what Kurumin means.
> By "stronger," I understand "more easily distinguished or identified."
> Perhaps by "stronger" he means "more accepted or favored."
> I suppose it would be natural for the middle class to prefer the accent of the high society as opposed to that of the peons like me.


 
Stronger accents = more marked = less standard

For example, in NYC they pronounce: horrible, forrest, orange with the [har-, far-, ar-] sound instead of [hor-] sound, and they say ''cawfee''; in Milan thay pronounce ''bene'' (good) with closed stressed e, instead of an open e; or ''ventitré'' (23) with open last e (they even write ventitrè (which is nonstandard; Italian standard is based on Central Italian Usage, mostly Florence and Rome)

And, in Munich they pronounce CH as [s] {Milsch for Milch} instead of [ç].


what I was trying to say: in many countries, the industrial capital is situated in the non-standard speaking region


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## Grop

Setwale_Charm said:


> What about external immigrants: people of Arabic, Turkish, African origin?



(I think there is very few immigrants of Turkish origins in France, unlike Germany for instance, or when compared to Portuguese, British, Chinese or Vietnamese origins)

External immigrants generally adapt to their place. An immigrant from Marocco in Toulouse generally speaks French with an accent that is somehow mixed between both SW France and Marocco. People from Marocco in Paris speak what is considered a typical Marocan accent, because there is no regional influence on their French.

Immigrants represent small minorities in large cities; they only have an important influence in small places (a few blocks in a large city, or a small and poor suburban place) where they represent large numbers. Specific accents develop in such places.

There are exceptions (to stereotype what seems to me like a sort of emerging pseudo-punk culture: teenagers who listen to rap music and want to sound like tUff rEbelZ so they speak like they are supposed to do in the _téci_) but most people or French origins are hardly tempted to speak like foreigners.


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## Macunaíma

Brazil's most marked accent is that of the North-East _the poorest part of the country. However, if you hear a member of one of the nearly-feudal families from the "rural aristocracy" speaking (Lins de Albuquerque, Rocha van der Ley, etc.), they hardly have the features of Northeastern accent at all. They have only a very slight "sotaque nordestino".

The same could be said about Rio de Janeiro. The features of Carioca's stereotypical accent are less noticeable in people born and bred in the "posh" neighbourhoods of Rio de Janeiro ( Leblon, Arpoador, Ipanema, São Conrado...).

Then again, I don't think São Paulo's accent is all that marked. Not really.The infamous nasals typical of São Paulo's accent ( which plague our call centres ) are mostly spoken in the "periferia" ( the city's outskirts ), and it can be ascribed to the Italian origin of millions of _paulistanos._


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## Kajjo

First of all, I do not think that the size or wealth of a city significantly influences the accent. There are many poor areas with particularly strong accents, as far as I know.



kurumin said:


> 2. München in Germany; they have very marked accent there [''standard'' accent is used in the city of Hannover (by everyone) and by middle and upper class Germans of some other Northern towns (like Hamburg)]


Just to set the facts right: Hamburg is not "a town in the North", it is the _second largest city_ of Germany after the capital Berlin. By the way, Hamburg is the largest European city which is not a capital. München is the third-largest city. That should say enough about your theory anyway.

Kajjo


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## caballoschica

Maybe the wealth does have something to do with it and the richer speak more marked and so do the poorer areas.  And the middle class speaks something in between.  And since they're the majority, the other accents will sound "more marked".  However, rich suburbs may not have a marked accent.  I haven't run across that, really.  But then I'm in the Midwest, where our goal is neutrality in the way we speak our words. Most don't like to say we have an accent, nor are greatly receptive to accents.


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## Paulfromitaly

kurumin said:


> 3. Milan accent, it is pretty strong [therefore not many actors or singers from Milan]
> [''standard'' accent is based on accents of Central Italy (Tuscany, Lazio with Rome, Umbria, Marche and the city of L'Aquila [abruzzo]; they
> pronounce the open and closed  vowels in the way indicated in Italian dictionaries, and they pronounce double consonants clearly...
> an Italian from Central Italy can easily obtain this newscastors/actor's
> accent; this accent is prestigious, that's why 90 %  of Italian actors and singers come from Central Italy (think _Monica Bellucci, Eros Ramazzotti, Andrea Bocelli, Tiziano Ferro_] (many singers and actors from Northern Italy imitate (or try to imitate) this pronunciation [_Nek_, _Jalisse_]



Everything you stated is far from the truth:

- Milan accent is not stronger than many others; if you want to hear really marked accents go to Southern Italy;
- It's not true that Tuscany accent is more clear than others: if folks from there spoke quickly to you, you'd hardly understand a word, especially if they are not well spoken;
- It's sheer bunk saying that 90% of the Italian actors and actresses come from Central Italy: they come from anywhere in the country;
- It's simply ridiculous saying that Italians who don't come from Central Italy try to imitate that kind of accent: it's obvious that you've never been in Italy.

The only thing that actors and actresses or singers do is trying to improve their diction, which is far from aping a different accent.
I'd never ever want to speak with a different accent from mine.


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## kurumin

Paulfromitaly said:


> Everything you stated is far from the truth:
> 
> - Milan accent is not stronger than many others; if you want to hear really marked accents go to Southern Italy;
> - It's not true that Tuscany accent is more clear than others: if folks from there spoke quickly to you, you'd hardly understand a word, especially if they are not well spoken;
> - It's sheer bunk saying that 90% of the Italian actors and actresses come from Central Italy: they come from anywhere in the country;
> - It's simply ridiculous saying that Italians who don't come from Central Italy try to imitate that kind of accent: it's obvious that you've never been in Italy.
> 
> The only thing that actors and actresses or singers do is trying to improve their diction, which is far from aping a different accent.
> I'd never ever want to speak with a different accent from mine.


 
I go to Italy every weekend, it is only a 2hours (by car) from Pula, Croatia where I live, to Triest, Italy  

Professor Canèpari does not agree with you.
Standard Italian pronunciation is based on the accents of Central Italy
(Tuscany [Massa province not included], Lazio with Rome, Umbria, Marche [Pesaro not included] and the city of L'Aquila).

Milan accent not neutral at all because they
1. don't respect the ortoepic rules which standard Italian inherited from
Latin, affecting closed/open vowels [they pronounce: vénti [winds], trè [three] which is nonstandard, standard pronunciation follows the centraItalian norm: vènti [winds, different from vénti[twenty]) and so on
2. they don't pronounce gn, gli as doppie
3. they don't respect _raddoppiamento fonosintattico_

Standard Italian pronunciation can be found in almost every Italian dictionary, and it has been very nicely explained in
1. DiPI (Dizionario di Pronuncia Italiana). Luciano Canèpari. Zanichelli.
2. MiPi (Manuale di Pronuncia uncia Italiana). Luciano Canèpari. Zanichelli.

Milan pronunciation will never be accepted as standard, just like
NYC or Liverpool accents will never be standard English pronunciation.


Corriere della Sera agrees with me 

http://www.corriere.it/Rubriche/Scioglilingua/2003/19dicembre.shtml

''
*Pronunce arbitrarie* 
Ho notato ormai da molti anni, specialmente parlando di televisioni "Fininvest", l'uso errato che viene fatto delle vocali aperte o chiuse... In particolare, ho notato che spesso le vocali che noi toscani pronunciamo aperte, vengono pronunciate chiuse, e viceversa, e siccome le ho sentite usare tante e tante volte, mi sono sorti dei dubbi e ho controllato sul dizionario... Inoltre, anche l'uso dei due diversi suoni della "s" spesso viene invertito... Chi ha ragione, noi toscani o i lombardi ? Per farle un esempio: "la coppa" (dei campioni, o il salume che dir si voglia), lo sento pronunciare con la "o" chiusa, mente in Toscana si usa la "o" aperta... Il fatto è che in casa mia ci si diverte molto a sentir pronunciare le parole in modo completamente diverso dal nostro e di solito ci facciamo sopra delle belle risate... Ho notato poi la "pesca" (andare a pesca, che noi pronunciamo con la "e" chiusa, e al nord la pronunciano con la "e "aperta), viceversa il frutto, la "pesca", che noi pronunciamo con la "e" aperta e al nord si pronuncia con la "e" chiusa. Ma chi parla in televisione, e specialmente i giornalisti, presentatori e soprattutto annunciatori del TG, non dovrebbero fare dei corsi di dizione? Poi un altro dubbio: noi toscani facendo lo "spelling" dell'alfabeto, la "v" la nominiamo come "vu", e invece al nord "vi". Qual é la forma corretta? 
*Luca Garofani* 

_Abbia pazienza: al nord non scorre l'Arno. E voi toscani avete, sicuramente, sempre ragione in fatto di pronuncia. Impareremo, pian piano impareremo a toglierci di dosso le secolari scorie delle nostre flessioni dialettali di pronuncia._ ''

 tchau amiguinho


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## Paulfromitaly

kurumin said:


> I go to Italy every weekend, it is only a 2hours (by car) from Pula, Croatia where I live, to Triest, Italy
> 
> Professor Canèpari does not agree with you.
> Standard Italian pronunciation is based on the accents of Central Italy
> (Tuscany [Massa province not included], Lazio with Rome, Umbria, Marche [Pesaro not included] and the city of L'Aquila). *Read again my post, take your time: I've never said that Central Italy pronunciation is not the one which is always taken as a good example of Italian. You were talking about accent, not pronunciation.
> Seeing as you seem to know a lot about Italian, take a look in the "only Italian" forum: I'm sure you'll have no problem reading Italian as you know so much about OUR language and you'll find out that "standard Italian" does NOT exist.
> *
> Milan accent not neutral at all because they
> 1. don't respect the ortoepic rules which standard Italian inherited from
> Latin, affecting closed/open vowels [they pronounce: vénti [winds], trè [three] which is nonstandard, standard pronunciation follows the centraItalian norm: vènti [winds, different from vénti[twenty]) and so on
> 2. they don't pronounce gn, gli as doppie
> 3. they don't respect _raddoppiamento fonosintattico
> _*Read again my post, take your time: I've never said that Milan accent is neutral, I've only pointed out that it's not stronger than many others.
> All the pronunciation rules you listed are followed by very well-spoken people, regardless of where they come from. If you think that all the people coming from Central Italy follow those rules or speak  Italian very well...you're a little..naive?*
> 
> Standard Italian pronunciation can be found in almost every Italian dictionary, and it has been very nicely explained in
> 1. DiPI (Dizionario di Pronuncia Italiana). Luciano Canèpari. Zanichelli.
> 2. MiPi (Manuale di Pronuncia uncia Italiana). Luciano Canèpari. Zanichelli.
> 
> Milan pronunciation will never be accepted as standard, just like
> NYC or Liverpool accents will never be standard English pronunciation.
> *Are you telling me that a well spoken and educated person coming from NY or Liverpool cannot speak with what you call "standard English pronunciation" whereas for example a London troglodyte can?? that's funny, you're really amusing me mate *
> 
> Corriere della Sera agrees with me
> 
> http://www.corriere.it/Rubriche/Scioglilingua/2003/19dicembre.shtml
> 
> ''
> *Pronunce arbitrarie*
> Ho notato ormai da molti anni, specialmente parlando di televisioni "Fininvest", l'uso errato che viene fatto delle vocali aperte o chiuse... In particolare, ho notato che spesso le vocali che noi toscani pronunciamo aperte, vengono pronunciate chiuse, e viceversa, e siccome le ho sentite usare tante e tante volte, mi sono sorti dei dubbi e ho controllato sul dizionario... Inoltre, anche l'uso dei due diversi suoni della "s" spesso viene invertito... Chi ha ragione, noi toscani o i lombardi ? Per farle un esempio: "la coppa" (dei campioni, o il salume che dir si voglia), lo sento pronunciare con la "o" chiusa, mente in Toscana si usa la "o" aperta... Il fatto è che in casa mia ci si diverte molto a sentir pronunciare le parole in modo completamente diverso dal nostro e di solito ci facciamo sopra delle belle risate... Ho notato poi la "pesca" (andare a pesca, che noi pronunciamo con la "e" chiusa, e al nord la pronunciano con la "e "aperta), viceversa il frutto, la "pesca", che noi pronunciamo con la "e" aperta e al nord si pronuncia con la "e" chiusa. Ma chi parla in televisione, e specialmente i giornalisti, presentatori e soprattutto annunciatori del TG, non dovrebbero fare dei corsi di dizione? Poi un altro dubbio: noi toscani facendo lo "spelling" dell'alfabeto, la "v" la nominiamo come "vu", e invece al nord "vi". Qual é la forma corretta?
> *Luca Garofani*
> 
> _Abbia pazienza: al nord non scorre l'Arno. E voi toscani avete, sicuramente, sempre ragione in fatto di pronuncia. Impareremo, pian piano impareremo a toglierci di dosso le secolari scorie delle nostre flessioni dialettali di pronuncia._ ''
> 
> tchau amiguinho


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## federicoft

I totally agree with kurumin.

The Milanese accent is quite strong to a Central Italian ear, and it is definitely nonstandard.
It is also true that actors and singers try to imitate the Central Italian pronunciation.

And standard Italian definitely exists. Standard pronunciation _rules_ do exist, they are based on Central Italian, and every vocabulary has them. Nonstandard pronounciations are not wrong, but surely they are not... standard either.


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## divina

Well with Spanish I don't think there is just one "standard" Spanish because it's been divided up according to region. I remember in high school Spanish classes we didn't learn the vosotros verb forms, because "they only use that in Spain" (direct quote from one of my Spanish teachers). Also, look in any relatively recent Spanish textbook or dictionary, and you will see like five Spanish words, with their region/country in parenthesis, for one English word.


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## Hulalessar

When someone says an accent is "strong" he just means it is different from his own; the more difficulty he has understanding it the "stronger" it is.


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## Outsider

Hulalessar said:


> When someone says an accent is "strong" he just means it is different from his own [...]


Not necessarily. Sometimes people acknowledge that they "speak with an accent", or that they grew up speaking "with an accent", and later "lost it".
In this case, they are using some other standard accent as a reference.



			
				Setwale_Charm said:
			
		

> I think the point here is that strong accents are generally associated with less educated people and from there on appears association with poverty.


I don't agree with this, either. Some accents are associated with low education and poverty, and therefore have low prestige. But it also happens sometimes (at least in Europe) that certain privileged classes develop accents of their own -- almost as if to distinguish themselves from the general populace -- and that these _uncommon and nonstandard_ accents come to be seen as prestigious; not because they're average, but precisely because they're rare.


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## Hulalessar

Outsider said:


> Not necessarily. Sometimes people acknowledge that they "speak with an accent", or that they grew up speaking "with an accent", and later "lost it".
> In this case, they are using some other standard accent as a reference.


 
Quite. They have succumbed to the idea that speakers of the standard do not have an accent.


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## chics

Hello.

Well, I think that the cases of Munich and Milan are not "city accents" but the accents of their region, as happens in most of big countries in Europe and which are more concerned with history (the bavarians, the italian history), other languages spoken there, geography and other things.

In Spain there are only regional accents, that are in general hardest in small villages in isolated areas, and we don't like much talking about a _standard_ accent. Internal migration and even American migration haven't influenced in accents of regions or big cities.

However, in Catalan there is an accent spoken in Barcelona by old migrations (first half of s.XX) of people from not Catalan speakers regions of Spain. It was not very well seen in the past, because it was a sort of way of speaking of the "poors". This way of talking was called "charnego" and in fact today it's an adjective that means _vulgar_. Nowadays, there's a lot of migration from Asia, Africa and America, but their influence in the languages spoken here is nil.


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## ilaria77

federicoft said:


> I totally agree with kurumin.
> 
> The Milanese accent is quite strong to a Central Italian ear, and it is definitely nonstandard.
> It is also true that actors and singers try to imitate the Central Italian pronunciation.
> 
> And standard Italian definitely exists. Standard pronunciation _rules_ do exist, they are based on Central Italian, and every vocabulary has them. Nonstandard pronounciations are not wrong, but surely they are not... standard either.


 
I am not sure Central Italian can be considered as standard.
I am from Rome and when I work I try not to sound too Roman, as it doesn't sound professional.
Italian dialects are proper languages in their own right, and I wouldn't say we have a standard.


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