# deer still means animal in the word: deerfly?



## Unoverwordinesslogged

Most writeups say the deerfly/deer fly feeds on: _wildlife, livestock and mankind_ and nothing about deers as in harts, hinds, bucks, stags, does and so forth.

Not getting strong etymology for deerfly/deer fly - can't find any dates nor anything straightforward as to why it is called a deerfly.

German and Dutch google translation for deerfly gives: "Hirsche fliegen" and "herten vliegen" notwithstanding the aforesaid, reckon deerfly like the word: gadfly means fly which live off animals in general and not a fly known for living off harts/deers.

So, is it known or not if deer still means animal in the word: deerfly?


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## fdb

You are right to say that English “deer”, like its cognates in other Germanic languages, originally meant any quadruped. But this meaning died out long ago: the latest reference in the OED is from ca. 1481. Its oldest reference for “deer-fly” is from 1853. So there is a gap of about 400 years during which “deer” means only “cervidae”.


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## Unoverwordinesslogged

Thanks for looking that up. A bit taken aback that the animal meaning for _deer_ (officially) died out that long ago - reckon the 1853 deer-fly could still be meant in the same way as a gad-fly - (any fly which bites any animal)


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## Unoverwordinesslogged

Shakespeare: _"mice and rats, and such small deer"_ Edgar's diet in King Lear written in *1605*

worth a byword.


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## fdb

By the way, your google translate has simply translated “deer” and the verb “fly”. "Hirsche fliegen" means "Deer are flying". The correct name for this creature in German is Hirschlaus, or Hirschlausfliege, in Dutch hertenluisvlieg. The moral: google translate is not to be trusted.


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## fdb

Unoverwordinesslogged said:


> Shakespeare: _"mice and rats, and such small deer"_ Edgar's diet in King Lear written in *1605*
> 
> worth a byword.



Well spotted. The OED does have this quotation as well, under “small deer”, which seems to be a fossilised phrase. Shakespeare evidently quoted it from the Middle English (15th-century) romance of Sir Beves: 

"Ratons & myse and soche smale dere,
That was hys mete that vii yere."

In Lear:

"But mise and rats, and such small Deere, 
Hath beene Toms foode for seuen long yeare."


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## Unoverwordinesslogged

fdb said:


> By the way, your google translate has simply translated “deer” and the verb “fly”. "Hirsche fliegen" means "Deer are flying". The correct name for this creature in German is Hirschlaus, or Hirschlausfliege, in Dutch hertenluisvlieg. The moral: google translate is not to be trusted.



Yes and it is also a good argument for English to compound words like "deer fly" as "horsefly" and "housefly" oft is...


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## Unoverwordinesslogged

fdb said:


> By the way, your google translate has simply translated “deer” and the verb “fly”. "Hirsche fliegen" means "Deer are flying". The correct name for this creature in German is Hirschlaus, or Hirschlausfliege, in Dutch hertenluisvlieg. The moral: google translate is not to be trusted.



Deerfly are definately not Hirschlaus/Hirschlausfliege http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hirschlausfliege - which even outdo deerfies for creepiness. In German think deerfly would come under http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleischfliegen Think Fleischfliegen meaning is akin to gadfly (meaning something like flies which bite/feed on the flesh of animals). Can't see how there could be two endemic kinds of winged bugs (deerflies and deerliceflies) to deers (harts/bucks...) unless the deerflies sucked the blood out of the deerlice or something - so reckon it seems more likely now that the _deer_ in deerfly does indeed mean _animal_ - any thoughts?


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## berndf

A Hirschlausfliege *is* a deer fly. There is absolutely no doubt about it; a Fleischfliege is a flesh fly. The confusion is probably because there are two species, a Eurasian and a North America one that go by the same common name. It happens sometimes that English common names for animals or plants get reused in AmE for vaguely similar looking but distinct species, like calling a wapiti "elk".


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## Unoverwordinesslogged

Yes it seems a Hirschlausfliege is a deerfly but in Britain there seems to be two kinds of biting fly somehow going under the name _deerfly_...

Winged hartlousefly deerfly thingy...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipoptena_cervi 
_They are parasites of elk, deer and other bovine animals_
_L. cervi__ is a poor flier and can only fly for short distances.  *Once the insect reaches its target, it sheds its wings* and starts  burrowing through the fur
They will not *reproduce* on any other host than deer. They will however bite humans_
_Remains of Lipoptena cervi have been found on Ötzi, the Stone Age mummy_
_Upon finding a host the adult fly *wings breaks off* and it is permanently associated with its host_
_Distribution: Most of Europe including Great Britain (but *absent from Ireland*), Algeria, Eastern Siberia and Northern China. Introduced and established in the Eastern United States (New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, New York). It has also recently spread to Finland from Russia in the early 1960s_
_will occasionally commit to the wrong host_



Tabanids in the UK - it is this _deerfly_ where I feel _deer_ may mean _animal_...
http://influentialpoints.com/Gallery/Horseflies_Clegs_and_Deerflies.htm


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## Sepia

Now to confuse you all and portrait the evolution upside down: While "dyr" in Danish still means "animal", many people - among them my dad, birth year 1914, Jutland, Denmark - often used the word "dyr" entirely meaning "deer" in its modern English meaning. Especially when talking about "countryside themes" like hunting, agriculture. Smaller animals like hare, fox, various birds would be mentioned using the proper terms and "dyr" was limited to mean any species of deer.


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## Schimmelreiter

Sepia said:


> Now to confuse you all and portrait the evolution upside down: While "dyr" in Danish still means "animal", many people - among them my dad, birth year 1914, Jutland, Denmark - often used the word "dyr" entirely meaning "deer" in its modern English meaning. Especially when talking about "countryside themes" like hunting, agriculture. Smaller animals like hare, fox, various birds would be mentioned using the proper terms and "dyr" was limited to mean any species of deer.


Did your father refer to male and female deer as _dyr_? In German, _Tier_ is a synonym of _Hirschkuh (hind)._


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## Unoverwordinesslogged

Schimmelreiter said:


> Did your father refer to male and female deer as _dyr_? In German, _Tier_ is a synonym of _Hirschkuh (hind)._



Women can be called dear/deer(?) in English


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## Unoverwordinesslogged

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deer_fly

_"While female deer flies feed on blood, males instead collect pollen"_


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## berndf

Unoverwordinesslogged said:


> Women can be called dear/deer(?) in English


These words have no relation.


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## Unoverwordinesslogged

berndf said:


> These words have no relation.



Ok thanks. 

PS. berndf do reckon the deerfly (chrysop) was/is named so - from an (erstwhile) association with animals in general or (latterly) an association with animals with antlers?


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## fdb

Unoverwordinesslogged said:


> do reckon the deerfly (chrysop) was/is named so - from an (erstwhile) association with animals in general or (latterly) an association with animals with antlers?



Didn't I answer this one in no. 2?


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## Unoverwordinesslogged

fdb said:


> Didn't I answer this one in no. 2?



which "deer-fly" is from 1853

deerfly (Lipoptena cervi) 

or 

deerfly (chrysops)

?


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## Unoverwordinesslogged

Sepia said:


> Now to confuse you all and portrait the evolution upside down: While "dyr" in Danish still means "animal", many people - among them my dad, birth year 1914, Jutland, Denmark - often used the word "dyr" entirely meaning "deer" in its modern English meaning. Especially when talking about "countryside themes" like hunting, agriculture. Smaller animals like hare, fox, various birds would be mentioned using the proper terms and "dyr" was limited to mean any species of deer.



This is very markworthy but yet never seen it make it into the etymology background of _deer_ and its older and newer meanings. Thought only English had _deer_ meaning oft horned fourlegged animal. Anymore stuff about this Sepia?


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## Unoverwordinesslogged

Schimmelreiter said:


> Did your father refer to male and female deer as _dyr_? In German, _Tier_ is a synonym of _Hirschkuh (hind)._



For some reason your reply to Sepia's post asidely minds me that Jutland was once Low German speaking - wonder if this has any bearing on how the two meanings of _deer _in English were gotten?


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## Unoverwordinesslogged

Unoverwordinesslogged said:


> Yes and it is also a good argument for English to compound words like "deer fly" as "horsefly" and "housefly" oft is...



edit* notwithstanding what I said in my first post, in truth google translated _"deer fly"_ not _"deerfly"_ - which isn't allowed by that translator.


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## Lugubert

The Swedish cognate of 'deer' is _djur, _generally meaning 'animal.' So there's the _rådjur_ 'deer' (_Capreolus capreolus_), which is a _hjortdjur_ (member of the _Cervidae_ family), belonging to the order _partåiga hovdjur_ (even-toed hoofed animals) and so on until the kingdom Animalia (_djur)._


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## Unoverwordinesslogged

Lugubert said:


> The Swedish cognate of 'deer' is _djur, _generally meaning 'animal.' So there's the _rådjur_ 'deer' (_Capreolus capreolus_), which is a *hjortdjur* (member of the _Cervidae_ family), belonging to the order _partåiga hovdjur_ (even-toed hoofed animals) and so on until the kingdom Animalia (_djur)._



Another language where _deer_ can mean deer (hart). Anyway, _hartdeer_ seems a good way of making the difference between the two sundry meanings of deer for the benefit of this thread - also seems to be said on the web too, suchlike: "hart-deer" "hart/deer" "hartdeer" (maybe hart-deer used to be a word before)


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## Unoverwordinesslogged

Unoverwordinesslogged said:


> edit* notwithstanding what I said in my first post, in truth google translated _"deer fly"_ not _"deerfly"_ - which isn't allowed by that translator.



edit* notwithstanding what I said in my first post, in truth google *mis*translated _"deer fly"_ not _"deerfly"_ - which isn't allowed by that translator.


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