# Hindi/Urdu: Khaandaan/khaanvaadah/parivaar/tabar



## panjabigator

Looking back on this thread, I wanted to ask what <xaandaan> denotes.  Is it more "clan" than "family?"  Somehow, I don't see it as an exact synonym with <parivaar>.

Does Urdu use the word <Tabar> as well for for family?
*Moderator Note:
Split from "Urdu: Do you miss your family?"*


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## huhmzah

I do see what you mean, but in Urdu <xaandaan> can be an exact synonym of parivaar as well = your family + your parents' siblings and cousins, or even the nuclear family. If someone asks you: "Aapke xaandaan mein kitne afraad hain" -- that would mean "household", so it's open ended.
I'd never heard the word Taabar before, but I did find it listed in the dictionary -- so I guess it exists but has completely fallen out of use.


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## panjabigator

You've answered my question.  Is <parivaar> ever heard in Pakistan?  Perhaps Panjabi speakers might use it or <parvaar>.


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## huhmzah

Nope, never heard the word parivaar used in Pakistan - Punjabis included. The first time I heard it was on an Indian channel, and it took me a while to figure out what it meant from context.


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## BP.

_parivaar_ is never used over here, most people wouldn't have ever heard it except of course ladies addicted to those interminable TV soaps.

_khaandaan_ can be moulded to mean either your immediate family or your clan, though for me the latter sense is better conveyed by _khaanwaada_.

Trying to disassemble '_khandaan_': the _-daan_ suffix could mean holder/receptacle e.g. _paandaan _(box for paan & its condiments), _raoshandaan_ (which lets in light), _ugaaldaan_ (into which you spit once your _paan_ is consumed!)......similarly a person who holds /has something [intangible] i.e. _Haamil-e-hadha_ (حامل ِھٰذا) e.g; _qadrdaan_ (who could appreciate), _Urdudaan_ (who has knowledge of Urdu) etc. '_khaan_' could come from _khaana_ (house), [or maybe becuse khandan is someplace that holds several Khans!].
So _khandan_ could be seen as a transliteration of 'household', referring to _people of _the household. Of course all this is conjecture!


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## huhmzah

Sounds good to me!
For the “-dān” suffix to mean holder/container/vessel in the words pāndān, xāndān etc does make perfect sense, but I would speculate that this suffix  is not the same as the “-dān” ending in words like qadrdān and urdūdān. I think there are two "-dān" suffixes in Urdu, the latter coming from the present stem root “-dān-“ of the (Farsi) verb “dānestan” which means “to know” i.e. “knower of…" as in: asariyātdān (اثرياتدان) “knower of antiquities” (archeologist), insāniyātdān, tafrīqdān (analyst), arbīdān etc. The same root also appears in words like dāna (intelligent), nādān (unintelligent), dānish (knowledge), dānishmand (scholar), dānishāmoz (student) etc. Kya khyal hai aapka?


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## BP.

داناءی is used more as فھم  or سمجھ or عقل than knowledge.

I think I can help crack this thing if you tell me whether نکتہ چیں and نکتہ دان are the same, or if not what makes them different. If they're the same then the 'holder' meaning should prevail.


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## arsham

-dān, suffix forming names indicating a container or holder in both New Persian and Middle Persian from Old Persian dāna- place attested in the compound daivadāna- the sactuary of demons/pagan gods, examples from New Persian include goldān, šāšdān, ābdān, šam'dān etc.

-dān, present stem of dānestan as indicated in a previous post, other examples from New Persian include rīyāzīdān, fīzīkdān, šīmīdān, pordān, hoqūqdān, kārdān etc

xāndān is formed using the suffix (the first -dān) not with the present stem. As for xān, it's attested in Middle Persian in this same form and with the meanings of house and source (as in New Persian), it's ultimately derived from the Old Persian root kan-, cf. New Persian and Middle Persian kandan to dig.

In Persian xāndān denotes the extended family or clan if you want. The proper word for immediate family is xānevāde, whose first element is xān and the second component is attested in few compounds in Middle Persian in the shape of -ōbād(ag), meaning son, child.

N.B. xān as a nobility title is of turkish origin and has nothing to do with xān (house;source) from which New Persian has also xāne house and xānevār household.


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## BP.

Wow that's a lot of examples! I'm disappointed in myself for not having been able to think of these simple, everyday 'holders'.

arsham, I always thought the numerical strength of _khaandaan_ and _khaanwaada_ the opposite of what you stated.


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## arsham

BelligerentPacifist said:


> Wow that's a lot of examples! I'm disappointed in myself for not having been able to think of these simple, everyday 'holders'.
> 
> arsham, *I always thought the numerical strength of khaandaan and khaanwaada the opposite of what you stated*.


 
What I wrote is how they are used in Persian, but that doesn't mean that it should be the same in Urdu as well. I wouldn't be surprised if another Urdu speaker confirms the way you described them, after all no matter how many loanwords a language gets from another one, it's got its own evolution!

BWT there is also qalamdān, namakdān, felfeldān, qanddān, chamadān (alteration of jāmedān جامه دان),


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## Faylasoof

arsham said:


> -dān, suffix forming names indicating a container or holder in both New Persian and Middle Persian from Old Persian dāna- place attested in the compound daivadāna ...





arsham said:


> -dān, present stem of dānestan as indicated in a previous post, other examples from New Persian include rīyāzīdān, fīzīkdān, šīmīdān, pordān, hoqūqdān, kārdān etc


Yes, its very important to distinguish between the _–daan_ of a container and the _–daan_ of _daanistan_ e.g. _siyaasatdaan_ and _saainsdaan_ in Urdu are respectively <*knower(s)> *_of politics = politician(s) _and _science_ = _scientist(s)_ rather than containers! Also these _–daan_s shouldn’t be confused with something like _dandaan_!





> In Persian xāndān denotes the extended family or clan if you want. The proper word for immediate family is xānevāde, whose first element is xān and the second component is attested in few compounds in Middle Persian in the shape of -ōbād(ag), meaning son, child.


 

Urdu seems to have something of an ambiguity about the two, but this is the way we have always used them and Platts’ dictionary also says the same:

*خانواده* = family; a great tribe; a race or tribe of people; an illustrious family

*خاندان* = family, household; house (of a prince / master / ruler), dynasty; lineage, descent; race

By the looks of these it would appear that there is a tendency to use *خانواده *for something like a clan / tribe / race, in addition to the family. So the numerical value seems higher than *خاندان* . 

In common usage though, I’ve heard both being used almost without distinction! Many don’t know that there is a difference. I think we use _khaandaan_ = _ahl-e-khaanah_, while _khaanvaadah _more like an extended family. So different to Farsi from where we got them in the first place.


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## panjabigator

Does Urdu use the word ٹبر as well for for family?


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## greatbear

In Hindi, _khaandaan _or _kunba _means clan while _parivaar _means family. While one could use _parivaar _at times for clan as well, _khaandaan _can never be used to indicate a family, unless it is a large, joint family (in which case all the three - _ghar_, _parivaar_, and _khaandaan _- are fine).
Note that in Hindi _ghar _not only means home, but also means family (unit or joint).


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## Faylasoof

Interesting word PG SaaHIb! Well, we don't use it and to be honest I have'nt heard it in our speech either, but I see it gets a mentions here. 

گھر باری _ghar-baarii_ = گھر کا مالک، گھر والا، خانہ دار، عیال دار،* ٹبر والا*۔ 

No pronunciation given! I assume it is Punjabi! How do you pronounce it? I mean the vowels.


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## greatbear

And yes, "ghar-bahaar" is also used in Hindi to indicate a large joint family.


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## panjabigator

Thank you, both of you. It's spelled with two zabars. 

(The word I'm referring to, Greatbear, is "ṭabar").


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## marrish

In Punjabi at least ''b'' is geminated. Maybe it is not the case in all the varieties?
For Urdu, as far as I know, this word is not used, unless as a Punjabi borrowing.


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## greatbear

Never heard of "tabar", panjabigator! Though there does exist "gharbaar" in Hindi (often mispronounced as "ghar bahaar"). There's also one film at least by that name.


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## panjabigator

marrish said:


> In Punjabi at least ''b'' is geminated. Maybe it is not the case in all the varieties?
> For Urdu, as far as I know, this word is not used, unless as a Punjabi borrowing.



Good point. I have been meaning to start a thread on Punjabi gemination. Will get on it.

Greatbear, I heard it from a Hindi speaker once (who is also a Punjabi). Influence, perhaps.


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## BP.

I've read _Tabar _on a wedding invitation written in Punjabi on the Internet somewhere.


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## Faylasoof

panjabigator said:


> Thank you, both of you. _*It's spelled with two zabars.*_
> 
> (The word I'm referring to, Greatbear, is "ṭabar").


 _*Thanks for this PG! *_*ṭabar* /*Tabar  it is then!*


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## Faylasoof

BelligerentPacifist said:


> I've read _Tabar _on a wedding invitation written in Punjabi on the Internet somewhere.


 Googling with *ٹبر *gives almost all Panjabi hits! The few Urdu ones I got had a UK official's name transliterated as *ٹبر* ! So it is definitely Punjabi. Need to look up _farhange-e-aasafiyyah_. It sometimes has Punjabi-derived entries that were / are used in western, Delhi-centered, Urdu.


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## marrish

In Punjabi it is* ٹبّر ਟੱਬਰ Tabbar, not Tabar.*


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## tonyspeed

greatbear said:


> _khaandaan _can never be used to indicate a family, unless it is a large, joint family



This is strange. All 3 of my Hindi dictionaries have khandaan as family, at least for one of the definitions. My Penguin Hindi-English Thesaurus only lists lineage and kinsfolk, which is exaclty according to your explanation.


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## Faylasoof

marrish said:


> In Punjabi it is* ٹبّر ਟੱਬਰ Tabbar, not Tabar.*


 I see! So there is a _shaddah_ on 'b'! Anyway, I was intrigued to find it in the online Urdu lexicon I mention above.


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## Faylasoof

tonyspeed said:


> Originally Posted by *greatbear*
> _khaandaan _can never be used to indicate a family, unless it is a large, joint family
> 
> 
> 
> This is strange. All 3 of my Hindi dictionaries have khandaan as family, at least for one of the definitions. My Penguin Hindi-English Thesaurus only lists lineage and kinsfolk, which is exaclty according to your explanation.
Click to expand...

 We always use _xaandaan_ to mean family, whether it is small or large. It also has other meanings as Platts explains, and we use it in _these_ sense too:

P *خاندان ḵẖandān* (for _ḵẖāna-dān_), s.m._ *Family,* household_; _race, lineage, descent,_ house (of a  prince, &c.), dynasty:—_ḵẖāndān-ě-shāhī_, Royal family; house, dynasty;—_ḵẖāndān-kī 'alāmat_, s.f. Armorial bearings.

However, we also have *kunbaa *and usually we associate this with an extended family as well as a smaller _xaandaan_:

H کنبا कुंबा _kumbā_, or कुणबा _kuṇbā_, or *कुनबा kunbā*, s.m. Family, &c. (=کمبا _kumbā_, q.v.):—_kunbā-parwār_, s.m. The support of a family:—_kunbā joṛnā_, or _kunbā sakernā_, or _kunbā ikhaṭṭā karnā_, To get a large family:—*kunbe-wālā, or kunbe-dār, s.m. One who has a large family.*


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## panjabigator

I just remembered the word "kutumbh" in Hindi. I think it might be a retroflex T but Greatbear can tell us better. Doesn't this word also mean family in a clan sense?


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## Faylasoof

panjabigator said:


> I just remembered the word "kutumbh" in Hindi. I think it might be a retroflex T but Greatbear can tell us better. Doesn't this word also mean family in a clan sense?


 Oh yes! You mean this:  कुटुम्ब _kuTumb_ = family, clan, tribe. 

The closest Urdu equivalents would be:

P قبيله qabīla (for A. قبيلة qabīlat, fem. of qabīl), s.m. Tribe, clan; family; wife:—qabīla-dārī, s.f. The taking a wife.
... and,
3ashiirah  عشیرہ
kunbah کنبہ  (alternative spelling!)


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## Qureshpor

"Tabbar" is how I have heard the word from my childhood. There is another word which I can not recall but it is there in my sub-conscience, something similar to "kuTumb" but not exactly. If I get any more information about it, I shall post it.


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## greatbear

"kuTumb" means a small family, however, in Hindi (usually a unit family), as opposed to khaandaan, which means a large, joint family or clan, lineage, etc., in Hindi. "KuTumb" is far more common in Gujarati, where it can mean a larger family, too.

@tonyspeed - I am afraid that the dictionaries are not the best guides usually to understanding the real, living language.


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## Qureshpor

Another Punjabi (compound) word for family that I have heard is "Deraa-Daggaa".

"te Dere-Dagge daa ke Haal e?"

And how is the family?


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## JaiHind

panjabigator said:


> Looking back on this thread, I wanted to ask what <xaandaan> denotes.  Is it more "clan" than "family?"  Somehow, I don't see it as an exact synonym with <parivaar>.



In Hindi, "Khandaan" is not only family but "extended family". It includes all uncles, grandparents, cousins, etc, etc, while parivaar "doesn't necessarily" mean all these extended family members... "Parivaar" mostly means the family which are closest and which lives together - like parents, siblings, wife and children...


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## greatbear

JaiHind said:


> In Hindi, "Khandaan" is not only family but "extended family". It includes all uncles, grandparents, cousins, etc, etc, while parivaar "doesn't necessarily" mean all these extended family members... "Parivaar" mostly means the family which are closest and which lives together - like parents, siblings, wife and children...



Yes, I agree.


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## tonyspeed

While we are on the subject, I feel like I have heard certain speakers treat parivaar/xaandaan as a feminine noun. Have any of you heard this before? If so, do you know why?


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## greatbear

Never heard any of them used as a fem. noun.


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## marrish

Faylasoof said:


> Oh yes! You mean this: *कुटुम्ब kuTumb = family, clan, tribe.*
> 
> The closest Urdu equivalents would be:
> 
> P قبيله qabīla (for A. قبيلة qabīlat, fem. of qabīl), s.m. Tribe, clan; family; wife:—qabīla-dārī, s.f. The taking a wife.
> ... and,
> 3ashiirah عشیرہ
> kunbah کنبہ (alternative spelling!)



*The really closest possible Urdu equivalent to this word is کُٹَم kuTam, meaning of course the same. Here we can see the polished form which evolved through Prakrit.

However, I don't remember it being ever used nowadays.*


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## UrduMedium

Faylasoof said:


> I see! So there is a _shaddah_ on 'b'! Anyway, I was intrigued to find it in the online Urdu lexicon I mention above.



I can recall from my childhood listening to the following expression somewhat frequently. I believe, without any Punjabi influence.

_lagtaa hai kih *Tabbar kaa Tabbar* chalaa aayaa hai_ (seems like the whole clan has shown up)

Usually said when the number of people of a family showing up at an event is much larger than expected. Also, I also believe it is _Tabbar _in Urdu also, not _Tabar_.


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## Faylasoof

marrish said:


> Originally Posted by *Faylasoof* Oh yes! You mean this: *कुटुम्ब kuTumb = family, clan, tribe.*
> 
> The closest Urdu equivalents would be:
> 
> P قبيله qabīla (for A. قبيلة qabīlat, fem. of qabīl), s.m. Tribe, clan; family; wife:—qabīla-dārī, s.f. The taking a wife.
> ... and,
> 3ashiirah عشیرہ
> kunbah کنبہ (alternative spelling!)
> 
> 
> 
> *The really closest possible Urdu equivalent to this word is کُٹَم kuTam, meaning of course the same. Here we can see the polished form which evolved through Prakrit.
> 
> However, I don't remember it being ever used nowadays.
> *
Click to expand...

 Yes, you are right _*kuTam *_is indeed Urdu and the closest to _*kuTumb*_ but what I meant was the closest we use being _qabiilah _etc. I too do not recall ever hearing _*kuTam*_.


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## Faylasoof

UrduMedium said:


> I can recall from my childhood listening to the following expression somewhat frequently. I believe, without any Punjabi influence.
> 
> _lagtaa hai kih *Tabbar kaa Tabbar* chalaa aayaa hai_ (seems like the whole clan has shown up)
> 
> Usually said when the number of people of a family showing up at an event is much larger than expected. Also, I also believe it is _Tabbar _in Urdu also, not _Tabar_.


 Interesting, because I just looked around and only some Urdu lexicons list the word and they do so _without the shaddah_: _*Tabar*_ !


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## UrduMedium

Faylasoof said:


> Interesting, because I just looked around and only some Urdu lexicons list the word and they do so _without the shaddah_: _*Tabar*_ !



Interestingly, here's an online Urdu dictionary entry that lists _*Tabbar *_as a variant of *tabbaR*, both meaning khaandaan, kumbaa etc. It claims _tabbaR _to come from Hindi. I must admit I have not heard _tabbaR _before.

http://www.clepk.org/oud/viewword.aspx?refid=21412


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## marrish

^ I think you can make use of the link called _Ghalatii kii nishaandihii kareN_!

One Hindi thesaurus states what follows:

_Tabbar - kuTumb, parivaar (PaNjaab) (yah shabd keval sthaanik ruup meN prayukt huaa hai), _meaning that this is a regional usage, in Panjab.


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## UrduMedium

Faylasoof said:


> Interesting, because I just looked around and only some Urdu lexicons list the word and they do so _without the shaddah_: _*Tabar*_ !


Just looked up feroz-ul-luGhaat jami3 and it does list _Tabbar _(with _tashdiid_). No mention of _Tabar _in it.

Also lists an idiomatic use _Tabbar chalnaa_ to mean,_ kuNbe kii parwarish honaa, xaandaan kaa xarch puuraa hona_.


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## Qureshpor

I always thought "Tabbar" was a typical Punjabi word but I am now having grave doubts in this matter. Both Farhang-i-Asifiyyah and Nur-ul-Lughaat include this word, the latter giving two meanings, 1) Family and 2) Family expenses.

panj-tan paak kii hai aas mujhe ai baajii
jin ke sadqe hai saaraa miraa Tabbar chaltaa

Khan-SaaHib

This dictionary connects Tabbar with the Persian "tabaar".


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## Qureshpor

I always thought "Tabbar" was a typical Punjabi word but I am now having grave doubts in this matter. Both Farhang-i-Asifiyyah and Nur-ul-Lughaat include this word, the latter giving two meanings, 1) Family and 2) Family expenses.

panj-tan paak kii hai aas mujhe ai baajii
jin ke sadqah meN miraa saaraa hai Tabbar chaltaa

Khan-SaaHib

This dictionary connects Tabbar with the Persian "tabaar".


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