# Half (time) - English/Germanic



## Alxmrphi

We were going a little bit OT in another thread and I thought I'd look for a clarification here. As you probably all know in languages like German / North Germanic when you say (the equivalent of) half 12, it means 11:30, while in English it means 12:30.

From the languages I checked... Icelandic, German, Dutch, Swedish this idea of half means cutting into the previous hour for the time, again so like* half four* is 03:30, and in English 04:30.

If this Germanic (non-English) way is how English used to be, given that it seems to be a historical trait, then where did its development come from? Is there any documented evidence in older forms of English that it ever used to be this way? Was it a language such as Norman (or even Central) French, or any Romance language that possibly introduced this change? Was it a natural development?

Quite often I've had conversations about this with people, but I've never been able to say why English changed (if it did, which I presume it did).
Any information on this would be appreciated 

Thanks
Alx


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## Meat

Do people say half four? If one of my students said that, I'd say they were wrong. Or, it's wrong at least in my dialect of English. Certainly something I've never heard before. Of course, there's no problem with half *past* four, but I assume that's not what you mean.


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## Alxmrphi

Meat said:


> Do people say half four? If one of my students said that, I'd say they were wrong. Or, it's wrong at least in my dialect of English. Certainly something I've never heard before. Of course, there's no problem with half *past* four, but I assume that's not what you mean.



That's one of the biggest shocks I've had at WR!!
_Half four_ is one of the most normal things to say over here, well, half + (any) hour. It's something I could (almost) confidently say that every British person says (or at least is surrounded by). It is exactly the same as the version with _past_.


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## Montesacro

Alxmrphi said:


> From the languages I checked... Icelandic, German, Dutch, Swedish this idea of half means cutting into the previous hour for the time, again so like* half four* is 03:30, and in English 04:30.
> 
> If this Germanic (non-English) way is how English used to be, given that it seems to be a historical trait, then where did its development come from? Is there any documented evidence in older forms of English that it ever used to be this way? Was it a language such as Norman (or even Central) French, or any Romance language that possibly introduced this change? Was it a natural development?



Well, Alex, as you surely know Romance languages use the construction "four (hours) and half" to mean 04:30

Italian: _sono le quattro e mezza_
French: _il est quatre heures et demie_
Spanish: _son las cuatro y media_

But I don't know if English took this particular usage you are talking about from old French. 
I personally think it is unlikely; as far as I know Americans don't say "half four", so maybe it is a relatively recent development that is present only in British English.


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## Alxmrphi

Yeah I know America has the *hour:thirty *preference (i.e. four-thirty)

I don't think it's a recent development, similar constructions are in all the other Germanic languages showing (unless there were parallel developments in +12 languages) that this usage is at least 1,500 years old, like in _Icelandic_: hálf sex, _Swedish_: halv sex, _German_:_ halb sechs_,_ English_: _half six_ etc.


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## koniecswiata

This is only British usage (maybe also Australian, or like forms of English).  It is certainly very foreign to American ears--bizarre sounding actually.  The first time I heard it from some English people, I misunderstood--as I know German, and confused something like 2.30 for 3.30.  
I wonder if this development in British English would have taken place after the US became independent.  It seems to me that some time-telling wording that is very based on using clocks and watches would have taken place when these devices became common in society.  I'm not really sure when most people started having them, but I'm sure that in medieval society they would have been rare.  Therefore, since the times when Germanic languages were more or less "one" was about 2,000 years ago, time telling language would not have really been shared.


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## Alxmrphi

Wow, I am flabbergasted that it sounds bizzare, absolutely dumbfounded.
I just thought it was something we both understood about each other's language and had a preference not to use (because we each had our own ways).

Even reading previous threads (2) (3) (4), it's the Americans that are shocked and the Brits pointing it out (as absolute standard through the UK and Ireland), very interesting.


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## Montesacro

Alxmrphi said:


> I don't think it's a recent development, similar constructions are in all the other Germanic languages showing (unless there were parallel developments in +12 languages) that this usage is at least 1,500 years old, like in _Icelandic_: hálf sex, _Swedish_: halv sex, _German_:_ halb sechs_,_ English_: _half six_ etc.



Yes, but only in English half six means 06:30.

Perhaps at an earlier stage half six meant 05:30, just like in all other Germanic languages.
Later the construction fell out of use, only to resurface recently with the current different meaning.
But these are speculations... sorry, it's not of much help.


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## Alxmrphi

Montesacro said:


> Yes, but only in English half sex means 06:30.



I know 
That's why I first posted this question, to find out why.



> Perhaps at an earlier stage (old English) half sex meant 05:30, just like in all other Germanic languages.
> 
> Later the construction fell out of use, only to resurface recently with the current different meaning.
> But these are speculations... sorry, it's not of much help


It's ok, you're having the same musings as me, that's why I asked if there was anyone that knew of any literary evidence that pointed to an earlier usage of times so we could see if it was like the other Germanic languages or if it resembled English (at least in Britain) today.

P.s.* half sex* in _English_ wouldn't refer to time at all, well maybe it would (i.e. short amount of, haha).


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## Montesacro

Alxmrphi said:


> P.s.* half sex* in _English_ wouldn't refer to time at all, well maybe it would (i.e. short amount of, haha).




I got distracted by the versions in Icelandic and Swedish...
I've edited my post


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## koniecswiata

I would imagine that the English "half six" has something to do with "half past six"--that it's a kind of shortening of the phrase.


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## ancalimon

In Turkish we say  dört buçuk  (half four) = 4:30

Or we say yarım (half) = 00:30


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## berndf

Alxmrphi said:


> Yeah I know America has the *hour:thirty *preference (i.e. four-thirty)
> 
> I don't think it's a recent development, similar constructions are in all the other Germanic languages showing (unless there were parallel developments in +12 languages) that this usage is at least 1,500 years old, like in _Icelandic_: hálf sex, _Swedish_: halv sex, _German_:_ halb sechs_,_ English_: _half six_ etc.


Are you sure it is that old? I was under the impression, the notation
_Viertel sechs_ (quarter six) = 5:15
_Halb sechs_ (half six) = 5:30
_Drei Viertel sechs_ (three quarters six) = 5:45
came up with chiming clocks where one chime represented XX:15, two chimes XX:30, three chimes XX:45 and four chimes the full hour. Do you have sources attesting it really is that much older?

Concerning the British notation _half five_ = 5:30: Isn't this much more likely an abbreviation of _half past five _than a revival of an older form with a changed meaning?


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## Alxmrphi

> Are you sure it is that old?


Absolutely not! 
Most of what is in this thread are questions and musings I'm saying out loud, hoping someone has any actual proof or interesting ideas.
I have not tried to proof* any* point so far in this thread as if it is true. If it seems I have, then I assure you that's not the case.



> Concerning the British notation _half five_ = 5:30: Isn't this much more likely an abbreviation of _half past five _than a revival of an older form with a changedmeaning?


That's what I'm asking!  
Now I see that _that _is probable, but yesterday when I was focusing on the identical system being an hour earlier in other languages,  so having a system of (see below), I just wondered what the reason was:

_Icelandic_: hálf sex = 05:30
_Swedish_: halv sex = 05:30
_German_:_ halb sechs__ = _05:30
_English_: _half six_ = *06:30*

Wouldn't any naturally inquisitive mind at least for a moment wonder what happened?
Is it that much of a dumb question to ask? 

The days were split up and sundials have been found from (I am going on bad memory here) around 800AD, so the idea of an hour, and telling the time, doesn't seem so immediately near to us in the past. So all that happened was English, unlike its Germanic neighbours never had this construction, and always opted for *past-hour*, then American became established, taking over that idea and in Britain we just dropped the *past*, so by chance we have similar constructions to the rest of Germanic languages that functions in a different way?


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## Abu Rashid

Meat said:
			
		

> Do people say half four? If one of my students said that, I'd say  they were wrong. Or, it's wrong at least in my dialect of English.  Certainly something I've never heard before. Of course, there's no  problem with half *past* four, but I assume that's not what you mean.




Same in Australian English, we only ever say "half past <hour>".

Just out of curiousity Alxmrphi, how do they say six o'clock (or 6:05 for instance) in the other Germanic languages? Is it something like "seventh hour"? Because it seems from the examples you gave, what they're actually saying (or rather meaning) is "quarter way into the 7th hour" or "half way into the 7th hour" or "three-quarters into the 7th hour"


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## Alxmrphi

> Just out of curiousity Alxmrphi, how do they say six o'clock (or 6:05  for instance) in the other Germanic languages? Is it something like  "seventh hour"? Because it seems from the examples you gave, what  they're actually saying (or rather meaning) is "quarter way into the 7th  hour" or "half way into the 7th hour" or "three-quarters into the 7th  hour"


The only other Ger. language I can talk on behalf of is Icelandic, which can represent 06:00 as:

Klukkan er sex (The clock is six)
Klukkan er fimm mínútur yfir sex (The clock is five minutes over/past six)

The "seventh hour" thing you mentioned, is a way of saying that something happened within an hour, it's not specific, so:

Á sjöunda tímanum í kvöld (The seventh hour)
- This means 18:01-18:59, it's within an hour, not a specific time.


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## Ben Jamin

koniecswiata said:


> This is only British usage (maybe also Australian, or like forms of English). It is certainly very foreign to American ears--bizarre sounding actually. The first time I heard it from some English people, I misunderstood--as I know German, and confused something like 2.30 for 3.30.
> I wonder if this development in British English would have taken place after the US became independent. It seems to me that some time-telling wording that is very based on using clocks and watches would have taken place when these devices became common in society. I'm not really sure when most people started having them, but I'm sure that in medieval society they would have been rare. Therefore, since the times when Germanic languages were more or less "one" was about 2,000 years ago, time telling language would not have really been shared.


 When I began learning (British) English half a century ago, I was taught to say "it's half past four" or "it's four thirty", never "it's half four".
Do you teach foreigners the latter now, British English teachers?


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## berndf

I first noticed _half six_ rather than _half past six_ in BE in the late 80s/early 90s. It is definitely a colloquialism and I'd bet the Queen wouldn't use it.


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## Alxmrphi

berndf said:


> I first noticed _half six_ rather than _half past six_ in BE in the late 80s/early 90s. It is definitely a colloquialism and I'd bet the Queen wouldn't use it.



Maybe that's changing then because it certainly doesn't _feel_ like a colloquialism and I would have no problem using it in the most formal of circumstances. Maybe others (esp. older native Brits) might disagree, but that's natural if anyone's ever looked at what people used to complain about 1/200 years ago, and then gets accepted to become perfectly standard, and is now what (anyone in) the Royal family would say.

Oh well, I think I found my answer, or as close as I'm going to get to it.
Thanks guys for all your input.


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## jmx

berndf said:


> ... the notation
> _Viertel sechs_ (quarter six) = 5:15
> _Halb sechs_ (half six) = 5:30
> _Drei Viertel sechs_ (three quarters six) = 5:45
> came up with chiming clocks where one chime represented XX:15, two chimes XX:30, three chimes XX:45 and four chimes the full hour.


That's almost exactly the way you tell the time in modern Catalan. The literal translations of what you say in Catalan would be "one quarter of six" (5:15), "two quarters of six" (5:30), "three quarters of six" (5:45).

In regional Spanish you can also say "the half for the six" (5:30), but there's no equivalent for quarters. Maybe in poorer regions the bell only chimed every half an hour?


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## OBrasilo

It might be interesting to note, that in Slovenian, we have such expressions as well. "Pol desetih" (half of ten) is 9:30. So I'd say this way traces back to very ancient times. That, or a mass calquing occurred among different languages.


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## berndf

I tried to find out when people started to tell the time by half and quarter hours. I didn't find any clear evidence. But we can safely assume it didn't start before the introduction of the modern hours which go from midnight to midday and are subdivided into 60 minutes. This started with the first clocks in the 14th century and was standard by the 15th century. The Romans divided the day in 12 hours from dawn to dusk subdivided into 10 minutes and the night into four watches. In the Middle Ages, the night was also subdivided into 12 hours from dusk to dawn. Obviously, the lengths of night and day hours depended on the season. I don't think people used any subdivisions of hours at that time. That started only with the modern hour/minute system in the 14th century.

Of course there were equal length hours and subdivisions for astronomical purposes at least since the days of Ptolemy but those were not used in ordinary life.


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## koniecswiata

Thank you Berndf, just as I suspected, clocks don't go back beyond the late Middle Ages, so these expressions about half hours, quarter hours, and amounts of minutes, should pretty much be things that came about as commonly used expressions after the 14th century.  Also they are very cultural, so I don't see how there would be anything specifically germanic or romance or whatever about it.  Rather, and especially if they are a calque, they show I kind of European (or beyond?) cultural framework.
By the way, talking about halves is common in Slavic, Germanic, and Romance languages:

English:  Two-thirty (as an American I'd say it like that) =
German:  Halb Drei
Polish:  Wpól do trzeciej
Spanish:  Dos y media

German, Polish, Spanish all occupy the word "half"

PS At least American English uses the term "half" even less than these other languages.  If anything it is "bucking" the European trend and AVOIDING the word half.


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## muhahaa

In Finnish also "puoli kymmenen" (half ten) = 9:30.


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## jazyk

> It might be interesting to note, that in Slovenian, we have such  expressions as well. "Pol desetih" (half of ten) is 9:30. So I'd say  this way traces back to very ancient times. That, or a mass calquing  occurred among different languages.


The same thing in Czech (půl desáté) and Slovak (pol desiatej).


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## Eroi Del Mare

Questo sistema di "contare" le ore mi suona molto familiare.

Mi ricorda tantissimo quello dei banditori medievali ( non sono se il vocabolo esatto sia questo).

Praticamente erano quei tizi che giravano per le strade dicendo.

"è l'una di notte ....e tutto va bene"
"un quarto *dopo* l'una ....e tutto va bene"
"mezz'ora  (vedi giu')      .....e tutto va bene"
"un quarto *alle *due....e tutto va bene"

Ora io non ricordo esattamente come "contavano" le ore questi "banditori".
Puo' darsi che da qualche parte si usasse di piu' dire *mezz'ora alle* (halfway to...) due,e da qualche altre parte si usasse di piu' dire *mezz'ora dopo*  (half past....) l una.Cosi in qualche luogo è rimasto il concetto di   halfway to... ,da qualche altra è rimasto il concetto di half past....

Lo sai no? Anche in italiano c'e' qualcosa di simile ,un quarto alle cinque e cinque meno un quarto.

E' solo la prima cosa che mi e' passata in testa leggendo la  discussione,quindi potrebbe essere completamente sbagliate,ma se ti  serve un idea...(a proposito qua c'e' un orologio che segna prima i quarti e poi le ore...ma).

Mi sia consentito di scrivere in italiano a quest'ora di notte.....e tutto va bene.


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## Alxmrphi

Ma a che sistema ti riferivi? Il sistema germanico oppure quello che hanno detto la le persone nei ultimi post? Non ne sono sicuro.
Ahhhhh la mente è completamente bloccata in questo momento, non mi ricordo neanche come si dice l'ora in italiano.
Questo thread mi ha rovinato le abilità linguistiche per parlare dell'ora!


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## Eroi Del Mare

It is only the first thing that i  thought reading the discussion (* it could be also a great bullshit,"ma mi sembrava troppo familiare") .I don t know if in England or in Germany there was something similar to banditori ( * this word could be wrong),but if you need some ideas...


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## Ben Jamin

jazyk said:


> The same thing in Czech (půl desáté) and Slovak (pol desiatej).


 To complete the West Slavic round: in Polish always "(w)pół *do* dziesiątej".


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## Ben Jamin

I wonder if anyone could anwer my question from the earlier post: do the British teachers teach their foreign students to say *half ten*, meaning 10.30?


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## Abu Rashid

koniecswiata said:
			
		

> Thank you Berndf, just as I suspected, clocks don't go back beyond the late Middle Ages...



Perhaps not in Europe, in the Islamic world though they certainly go way back beyond that, as did terminology for quarters and halves of hours.


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## berndf

Abu Rashid said:


> Perhaps not in Europe, in the Islamic world though they certainly go way back beyond that, as did terminology for quarters and halves of hours.


Words for fractions of an hour existed already in antiquity. The issue here is, if, in common speech, you would specify the the time of the day more precisely than by saying the hour. I don't think this ever was customary before clocks emerged.


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## origumi

berndf said:


> I don't think this ever was customary before clocks emerged.


It is in Talmudic Hebrew. For example חצי שש וחצי שבע חמה עומדת בראש = half six and half seven the sun stands at top (of sky). The hours counting goes from sunrise to sunset, thus the 6th hour is noon, half six and half seven are like the German notation: half of the 6th hour (5:30) through half of the 7th hour (6:30) = midday plus/minus half an hour.


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## Welshie

Ben Jamin said:


> I wonder if anyone could anwer my question from the earlier post: do the British teachers teach their foreign students to say *half ten*, meaning 10.30?



I doubt it. "Half ten" is a colloquialism, as has already been pointed out.. It is just for when you feel too lazy to say "Half past ten".


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## Ben Jamin

Welshie said:


> I doubt it. "Half ten" is a colloquialism, as has already been pointed out.. It is just for when you feel too lazy to say "Half past ten".


 Yes, it was, but the younger generation dooes not perceive it (see the earlier post from Alxmrphi). For them it is standard language.


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## Alxmrphi

Ben Jamin said:


> Yes, it was, but the younger generation dooes not perceive it (see the earlier post from Alxmrphi). For them it is standard language.


Yeah, I am actually qualified to teach English abroad to adult students (though I haven't done any teaching yet, I decided to do a degree and re-take the examination next year as part of it, because it's an optional to do this with a BA in Linguistics). Anyway, if I was planning a lesson on telling the time, I'm sure naturally with emphasis on past / to I would (subconsciously) start saying that, but I'm sure when pointing to the time I would not think twice about pointing to 05:30 and asking them to repeat "Half five".

As you say, for me it's not colloquial at all, it's completely interchangeable with any other version.
If there were Germanic speakers I would make sure they weren't tripped up by it, but there are many monolingual EFL teachers that I don't think would be aware of how time works in other languages and of the possible confusion it could cause. I remember travelling around Oz with some German speakers and when they told me about this difference I almost didn't believe them  I couldn't fathom that "half five" meant 04:30, there were a group of us Brits, and we all found it difficult to believe (I actually remember where we were when having that conversation !)

Definitely for the future now I know it's an important point to watch out for if I ever find myself doing that, explaining that not everyone is ok with what I find the most normal, but whoever thought such a global language didn't have such differences? Sort of obvious that differences pop up every now and again, wasn't expecting any other native to consider it wrong though, that _was _a shock 

I actually did a vote on this at the pub the other night, out of 10 people 8 of them read the time without "past", and two with "past", and then as a follow up I asked if they had any problem without using _past_, and they said no, and seemed a little confused as if they never realised there are two ways they naturally say it. It's quite funny to put linguistic doubts in people's minds and watch their expressions when they've never realised something before.


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## berndf

origumi said:


> It is in Talmudic Hebrew. For example חצי שש וחצי שבע חמה עומדת בראש = half six and half seven the sun stands at top (of sky). The hours counting goes from sunrise to sunset, thus the 6th hour is noon, half six and half seven are like the German notation: half of the 6th hour (5:30) through half of the 7th hour (6:30) = midday plus/minus half an hour.


Interesting. Thank you.


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## koniecswiata

Probably if teaching students to speak, understand and interact with real people in English, i.e. "Communicative English"--and if time permits--you should mention that in British English people say "half six" as opposed to "half past six."  Since it is totally foreign to my English, I wouldn't use it--but i'd mention it and make the students aware of its use in, at least spoken, British English.  I'd also make sure that they knew NOT to use it with other English speakers as it would cause a lot of confusion--for non-native speakers of English (not only Germanic, but others would also think it meant 5.30), and Americans who would just respond with "huh?"
By the way, as for logical analysis (and of course, languages DO NOT have to be mathematically logical), saying half six for 6.30 seems REALLY illogical to me.  When you say half of something, I find you imply the next whole.  Half six just seems logically like saying "half of six", which equals "five and a half" (5.30).  Maybe I've been too influenced by German (which I grew up speaking) to get that idea out of my head.  I can only rationalize "half six" by thinking that the word "past" has been swallowed up--but is implied.


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## Alxmrphi

> By the way, as for logical analysis (and of course, languages DO NOT  have to be mathematically logical), saying half six for 6.30 seems  REALLY illogical to me.  When you say half of something, I find you  imply the next whole.  Half six just seems logically like saying "half  of six", which equals "five and a half" (5.30).  Maybe I've been too  influenced by German (which I grew up speaking) to get that idea out of  my head.


I was talking to an Icelander about 6 weeks ago and we had exactly the same conversation, he said it made more logical sense in his language, and I said it made more logical sense in my language. Of course everyone's native language is going to feel more intuitive, but it's moments like this that make you realise about what you think makes the most sense, it's just based on what you're used to, not any true "logic". What would surprise me was if German didn't have some influence on your decision.


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## koniecswiata

Probably German does have some influence--especially since it kind of is/was my first language.  But, that German calque has been reinforced by Polish (which I know) and uses a rather similar construction.  On top of that, the fact that Americans don't generally express time in halves and quarters (well, probably someone somewhere in the US does) but just say the numbers.  Let's hear it for diversity.


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## Alxmrphi

koniecswiata said:


> Let's hear it for diversity.




If only there were more people at WR that felt the same.


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## Walshie79

koniecswiata said:


> Probably if teaching students to speak, understand and interact with real people in English, i.e. "Communicative English"--and if time permits--you should mention that in British English people say "half six" as opposed to "half past six."  Since it is totally foreign to my English, I wouldn't use it--but i'd mention it and make the students aware of its use in, at least spoken, British English.  I'd also make sure that they knew NOT to use it with other English speakers as it would cause a lot of confusion--for non-native speakers of English (not only Germanic, but others would also think it meant 5.30), and Americans who would just respond with "huh?"
> By the way, as for logical analysis (and of course, languages DO NOT have to be mathematically logical), saying half six for 6.30 seems REALLY illogical to me.  When you say half of something, I find you imply the next whole.  Half six just seems logically like saying "half of six",



"Half of six"- if someone said that I'd initially think "three". 


Years ago when I did my only year of German at school, we were specifically warned about the "half six"- "halb sechs" problem, and taught to say "sechs Uhr dreizig" instead. Which of course was useless when it came to listening comprehension, and tapes of Germans saying "halb sechs"...

The only way I can ever understand the "half six = 05:30" interpretation is by thinking of Roman numerals: IV=4 (1 before 5); IX=10, XC=90.


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## Kevin Beach

Alxmrphi said:


> Yeah, I am actually qualified to teach English abroad to adult students (though I haven't done any teaching yet, I decided to do a degree and re-take the examination next year as part of it, because it's an optional to do this with a BA in Linguistics). Anyway, if I was planning a lesson on telling the time, I'm sure naturally with emphasis on past / to I would (subconsciously) start saying that, but I'm sure when pointing to the time I would not think twice about pointing to 05:30 and asking them to repeat "Half five".
> 
> As you say, for me it's not colloquial at all, it's completely interchangeable with any other version.
> If there were Germanic speakers I would make sure they weren't tripped up by it, but there are many monolingual EFL teachers that I don't think would be aware of how time works in other languages and of the possible confusion it could cause. I remember travelling around Oz with some German speakers and when they told me about this difference I almost didn't believe them  I couldn't fathom that "half five" meant 04:30, there were a group of us Brits, and we all found it difficult to believe (I actually remember where we were when having that conversation !)
> 
> Definitely for the future now I know it's an important point to watch out for if I ever find myself doing that, explaining that not everyone is ok with what I find the most normal, but whoever thought such a global language didn't have such differences? Sort of obvious that differences pop up every now and again, wasn't expecting any other native to consider it wrong though, that _was _a shock
> 
> I actually did a vote on this at the pub the other night, out of 10 people 8 of them read the time without "past", and two with "past", and then as a follow up I asked if they had any problem without using _past_, and they said no, and seemed a little confused as if they never realised there are two ways they naturally say it. It's quite funny to put linguistic doubts in people's minds and watch their expressions when they've never realised something before.


"Half eight" for "half past eight" definitely started as a colloquialism, but I can accept that generations X and Y might have adopted it as standard speech.

However, it doesn't apply to any other number of minutes past the hour, does it? Nobody says "Quarter eight" for 8.15, or "Three quarters eight" for 8.45.

Unless the language fairies are planning some more changes, I suspect that "Half [the hour]" will remain unique.


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## elirlandes

Just to confirm what Alxmrphi says (as nobody else has yet...).
In British English and also in Ireland, it is extremely common to hear 06:30 expressed as "half six". To an Irish ear, "half past six" which means the same also sounds perfectly normal, but perhaps just a little more formal. "Half six" is the norm.


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## francisgranada

Let me add my _half two cents_  to this interesting discussion.

*Hungarian*

_fél három_ (with no suffixes, litterally "half three")_ =_ 2:30
_negyed három_ (lit. "quarter three") = 2:15
_három negyed három_ (lit. "three quarter three") = 2:45


The *western Slavic* languages (as already told by _Jazyk_ and _Koniecswiata_): 

Polish: _Wpól do trzeciej_ (lit. half to _*third*_) _=_ 2:30
Czech: _Půl třetí_ (lit. half of _*third*_) _=_ 2:30
Slovak: _Pol tretej_ (lit. half of _*third*_) _=_ 2:30

The Polish version seems to be the most logical, as it is perfectly undestandable: "half an hour to the _third _hour". It's interesting though, that the western Slavic languages use _ordinal_ numbers in this case.



OBrasilo said:


> ...in Slovenian, we have such expressions as well. "Pol desetih" (half of ten) is 9:30....


 
The form "_desetih_" in this case seems to be a genitive plural of the _cardinal_ number _deset_ (ten). Or, is it rather the genitive plural of the _ordinal_ number _deseti_ (tenth) ?


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## OBrasilo

Considering 2:30 is "Pol treh" and not "Pol tretjih", it's indeed cardinal, and not ordinal in Slovenian. Note 1:30 is "Pol dveh", and 12:30 is "Pol enih".
In Russian however, it's like in Czech or Slovak. 1:30 is "Pol vtorogo" (note, hour in Russian is "chas", which is masculine), literally "Half of the second". 2:30 is "Pol tretego", and 12:30 is "Pol pervogo".

Edit: Note though, Slovenian still uses "pol-" with _ordinal_ numbers in counting, just not for hours. For example, "poldrugi mesec" (lit. "half-second month") is another way to say "a month and a half", if I recall correctly.


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## Orlin

In Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian 2:30 = pola tri ("half three"), in Bulgarian 2:30 =  два и половина ("two and a half").


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## koniecswiata

So, it seems that the British English (definitely NOT American English) system of "half + number" is definitely the odd one among European languages.  So far the evidence from Slavic, other Germanic, Romance and Hungarian is that "half + number" is understood as being half of that number, not as in British English where "half + number" is understood as refering to the previous/lower number.  It could be said that the European languages are going about it mathematically, while British English is using a colloquial and highly idiomatically specific system that would confuse anybody not used to it.  Of course, each language has a right to its own logic


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## Alxmrphi

koniecswiata said:


> So, it seems that the British English (definitely NOT American English) system of "half + number" is definitely the odd one among European languages.  So far the evidence from Slavic, other Germanic, Romance and Hungarian is that "half + number" is understood as being half of that number, not as in British English where "half + number" is understood as refering to the previous/lower number.  It could be said that the European languages are going about it mathematically, while British English is using a colloquial and highly idiomatically specific system that would confuse anybody not used to it.  Of course, each language has a right to its own logic



Good summary


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## terredepomme

I just learned in my German class that German-speakers say half (n-1)hr. I never knew that the British did the same thing. A pity that I was taught American English...


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## JamesM

terredepomme said:


> I just learned in my German class that German-speakers say half (n-1)hr. I never knew that the British did the same thing. A pity that I was taught American English...


 
Well, be careful there. As the posters above have said, in German it means half *before* the hour. In British English it means half *past/after* the hour. So they don't do the same thing.


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## L'irlandais

Hello,
Montesacro's slip in #8 made me smile ;  when pronounced in with an Ulster accent, it always sounds like "_have sex_" to me.

I agree with Alxmrphi & eirlandes, the expression "half six" is very very common, if not standard usage in both Ireland and England.  I can only think that our Americian neighbours are slowly but surely losing their grasp of the King's English, if they find this expression in the slightest way odd.


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## JamesM

L'irlandais said:


> I can only think that our Americian neighbours are slowly but surely losing their grasp of the King's English, if they find this expression in the slightest way odd.


 
Quite a few assumptions buried in there...  

Was "half six" common in the 17th and early 18th centuries when our versions of the language were less divergent? 

It would be interesting to know when "half six" became common in British English.


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## PaulQ

berndf said:


> I first noticed _half six_ rather than _half past six_ in BE in the late 80s/early 90s. It is definitely a colloquialism and I'd bet the Queen wouldn't use it.


I'm not at all sure that is so. "Half six" is very common and I cannot think that it would turn anyone's head. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/learningenglish/radio/specials/1535_questionanswer/page63.shtml)

The OED has the entry for *past *


> 1613    S. Purchas Pilgrimage 119   When it was halfe an houre past the sixt houre.


Tracing anything earlier than this might be difficult as the minute hand of a clock had been invented only in 1577. (Edit to add: having said that, also OED, "1583                                  C. Hollyband _Campo di Fior_ 157                   An houre and a halfe after we are up.")

Note: half four (and similar) is not to be confused with the nautical measuring system; In soundings, half before a numeral adds half to it; thus half four = 4½ fathoms. (also OED)


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## merquiades

It's true when I first heard British people saying half-six I assumed it was 5:30 like in German.  Even now I have trouble and have to think when I hear them telling time.  Even with expressions like twenty till seven, I have to stop, calculate and reformulate 6:40 in my head. I understand the logic of course but still after hearing it often, it doesn't seem natural to me. I would compare it to Fahrenheit vs/ Celcius,  Pounds vs/ Kilos,  Miles vs/ Kilometers etc. I always make a speedy calculation.
In class, I teach all versions when it comes to the lesson on time (by the way, the books from Oxford don't teach half-six, only half past six, six thirty is mentioned in passing), but outside that lesson I read time like a digital clock usually even adding a.m or p.m.

Edit: I don't want people to get the impression these standard time expressions are not used in America.  They are (with the exception of half+hour, I'm willing to bet on that one..) It's probably just me who has personal issues with the clock


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## Pertinax

My family arrived in Australia in 1971.  I remember my mother saying that Australians could not understand her "half four": it had to be "half past four".  That is still the case today.

That suggests that it was in common use in the UK at least in the late sixties - but not before the eighteenth century when English settlers arrived here.  That might put an upper and lower bound on its introduction into BrE.  Indeed, given that English immigrants continued to arrive in droves until the 1950s or so, it is possible that it did not establish itself in BrE until after World War II.

The OED does give some older examples without "past", but I think that they refer to the German style:_*
*a1791 				   			  F. Grose Olio  		(1796) 	 107   				C. Pray what's o' clock? W. It will be half ten._
_1853 				   			  C. Reade Christie Johnstone 294   				Flucker informed her that the nock said ‘half eleven’—Scotch for ‘half-past-ten’.

_The OED adds:_
In Scotland, ‘half’ is often prefixed to the following hour, as in German halb elf, etc._


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## JamesM

PaulQ said:


> I'm not at all sure that is so. "Half six" is very common and I cannot think that it would turn anyone's head. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/learningenglish/radio/specials/1535_questionanswer/page63.shtml)
> 
> The OED has the entry for *past *Tracing anything earlier than this might be difficult as the minute hand of a clock had been invented only in 1577. (Edit to add: having said that, also OED, "1583                                  C. Hollyband _Campo di Fior_ 157                   An houre and a halfe after we are up.")
> 
> Note: half four (and similar) is not to be confused with the nautical measuring system; In soundings, half before a numeral adds half to it; thus half four = 4½ fathoms. (also OED)



I'm not sure how these quotes apply, PaulQ.  Can you explain a little more?  Do these relate to "half six" or to "half past six"?


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## merquiades

Pertinax said:


> My family arrived in Australia in 1971.  I remember my mother saying that Australians could not understand her "half four": it had to be "half past four".  That is still the case today.
> 
> That suggests that it was in common use in the UK at least in the late sixties - but not before the eighteenth century when English settlers arrived here.  That might put an upper and lower bound on its introduction into BrE.  Indeed, given that English immigrants continued to arrive in droves until the 1950s or so, it is possible that it did not establish itself in BrE until after World War II.



Hi Pertinax.  I've been reading theories about Australian English, but unfortunately internet doesn't always give sources so I'm always in doubt if it's based on fact or hearsay.  Anyway, it would appear Aus. Eng. was formed quite early by the beginning of the 1800's from a mixture of southern English and Welsh origins, and took root.  When vast numbers of immigrants came later speaking differently, whether Irish, Scots, later English, their children adapted to the already established speech patterns (not those of their parents), even though at times Aus.Eng. lacked prestige and was officially discouraged. This would fit in with your observation about half+hour not existing in Australia. So your time line would have it appearing in G.B. between 1850-1950. Probably not later since all Brits and Irish here use it and consider it the norm. I think there would be more debate and variation if it appeared 20-40 years ago.


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## Ben Jamin

merquiades said:


> Hi Pertinax.  I've been reading theories about Australian English, but unfortunately internet doesn't always give sources so I'm always in doubt if it's based on fact or hearsay.  Anyway, it would appear Aus. Eng. was formed quite early by the beginning of the 1800's from a mixture of southern English and Welsh origins, and took root.  When vast numbers of immigrants came later speaking differently, whether Irish, Scots, later English, their children adapted to the already established speech patterns (not those of their parents), even though at times Aus.Eng. lacked prestige and was officially discouraged. This would fit in with your observation about half+hour not existing in Australia. So your time line would have it appearing in G.B. between 1850-1950. Probably not later since all Brits and Irish here use it and consider it the norm. I think there would be more debate and variation if it appeared 20-40 years ago.



So the so called "anglophone" people are unable to agree about something rather important for communication. An hours delay may be critical for many operations. It weakens the suitability of English as a means of international communication.


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## LilianaB

There is a similar thing in Russian, in fact I do not know if it is really similar, but it is also quite unusual, let's say. Ten minutes of five if literally translated from Russian would be ten after four. _of_ with one _f_ -  Genitive.


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## berndf

Ben Jamin said:


> So the so called "anglophone" people are unable to agree about something rather important for communication. An hours delay may be critical for many operations. It weakens the suitability of English as a means of international communication.


Not really. What we discuss were applies only to colloquial communication. In technical communication you only use "18:30" and not "half six".


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## apmoy70

In Greek the "half + hour" thing does not make sense. To describe half past the hour we colloquially say "hour + half" (one compound word)
e.g. 13:30 = onehalf 
or
17:15 = five and quarter
16:45 = quarter to five


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## Pertinax

Google Books has several early examples of Irish speakers using "half twelve" etc, in contexts where it is clear that "half past" is implied.  For example:

1904: Gallowglass, or life in the land of the priests, by Michael John Fitzgerald McCarthy:
_'Tis twinty minnits to twelve an' she's due at half twelve._

1935: The world is for the young, by Blanche Girouard:
_"Ye heard nothin' yet?"_
_"Not a hint o' them. I had it in my mind they'd be here by half-eleven, or maybe twelve o'clock."_

There are also a handful of examples of the "half twelve" style in English parliamentary and legal documents.  However, these examples are so vastly outnumbered by examples with "past" that I think that they are probably errors.

Perhaps, then, the "half twelve" colloquialism was an Irish import, winning acceptance in the period 1900-1950.  I can find no good examples from English speakers before then. On the contrary, the expression "half twelve" was consistently mocked as a Scotticism:

1737: William Wotton:
_The Scots likewise having been taught the old Danish .. love even now to answer "It is half ten", which in Latin signifies "Sesquinona est", It is half an hour past nine._

1839: London Saturday Journal:
_seeing as how he was an ignorant Scotch lump of a fellar .. I determined to have a little sport with him ..
    says I, "Pray, my little fellow, what's o'clock?'
    'It will be half ten, sir,' he replied.
    'Half ten, sirrah, is it but five?'
    'No sir, it's half an hour from ten.'
    'And what is half an hour from ten? Is it half an hour after nine, or half an hour past ten?'
    'I only meant to say it will be half an hour after nine.'_

1881: Scotticisms arranged and corrected, by Alexander Mackie:
_'What's o'clock?'
    'Half-six', as a reply to this is incorrect; it should be 'half-past five'._


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## PaulQ

JamesM said:


> I'm not sure how these quotes apply, PaulQ.  Can you explain a little more?  Do these relate to "half six" or to "half past six"?


The first relates to half-six, the second to half *past *<the hour>


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## JamesM

There is no problem with *half past *in any version of English, is there?  Maybe I've lost the train of thought here.   The only one that is exclusively British Engish (to mean "half past six", for example) is "half six".


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## Meat

Half past is fine, if a little formal, in American English, at least. I think it's fine in UK and AUS English as well.


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## PaulQ

JamesM said:


> There is no problem with *half past *in any version of English, is there?


I think the problem is adequately expressed in the final paragraph of the original post. "When was half past first used?"


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## Ben Jamin

berndf said:


> Not really. What we discuss were applies only to colloquial communication. In technical communication you only use "18:30" and not "half six".


What about people that will use their colloquial language while speaking to foreigners?


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## merquiades

Ben Jamin said:


> What about people that will use their colloquial language while speaking to foreigners?



Ben Jamin, people who speak only the dialect of their village will use that with everyone because they have no other way to communicate, and it will go far beyond the way they tell time.  Everybody else with awareness, capacity, and goodwill will adapt a little or a lot, depending.  As I said I understand half-six now but I spent many years of my life unaware of its existence, now I know, but to become aware you have to be in contact...  I'm sure there are many regionalisms throughout the english speaking world I don't know yet.  I'm always learning something. Variation cannot be helped.


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## Ben Jamin

merquiades said:


> Ben Jamin, people who speak only the dialect of their village will use that with everyone because they have no other way to communicate, and it will go far beyond the way they tell time.  Everybody else with awareness, capacity, and goodwill will adapt a little or a lot, depending.  As I said I understand half-six now but I spent many years of my life unaware of its existence, now I know, but to become aware you have to be in contact...  I'm sure there are many regionalisms throughout the english speaking world I don't know yet.  I'm always learning something. Variation cannot be helped.



I met once a young Englishwoman, with a University degree, that professed that she would only speak her village dialect to everybody, and everybody should adapt to her. I once listened also to another lady’s lecture at an international congress. She used consistently her own dialect almost impossible to understand for people from other places than the village she was born. If it were not for the Powerpoint text, nobody would not have understood a bit of her lecture.


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## berndf

*Back to the topic please.*


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## L'irlandais

Ok berndf,
I'm learning a little Swiss German at the moment.  Of course they say halbi sibni for what I would call half six.
But the thing that struck me as quite different from English usage was the turn of phrase - Föif vor/ab halbi sibni for twenty-five past six / twenty-five to seven.
Is this common in other German speaking areas?


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## berndf

In principle: yes. But you are opening a can of worms here. Ways to tell the time are full of variants all over the German language area. For thinks like "five past quarter nine" even many Germans wonder if it means 8:20, 8:50 or 9:20.... it means 8:20.

 Look at these threads:


 Uhrzeit (Sprechweise) 
Viertel neun vs. viertel nach acht


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