# Diving in sports



## Hockey13

Spurred on by a comment from our very own Maxiogee in the thread titled "Lies," I decided to start a different thread instead of hijacking yet another one.

One of the biggest complaints about soccer that I tend to hear from American sports fans is that the players are (and I quote) "pussies"  because they always fake injury when tackled or otherwise barely touched. I've personally even seen this sort of thing when the player had an otherwise good chance to score but decides to feign injury instead. The recovery times for some soccer injuries are simply miraculous.

I bring the issue up because here in the US (at least in my experience) we are taught to get up and show the other guy that he didn't hurt you. This is especially crucial for contact sports like football and hockey where reputation as being a tough player is part of the game. If a player in either one of those sports stays down, he is 99.99% of the time really, really hurt. I personally get injured a lot in hockey and in my entire life, I've stayed on the ground no more than 15 times and more than half of those times I went to the hospital afterward and sometimes I went to the hospital after getting up and going to the bench. I'm not saying I'm tough, I'm saying that is what is expected of you, and anything less would seem weak.

From what I noticed at last year's World Cup, _it appeared to me_ that some countries' players were more likely to take a dive and act hurt than others. I wonder how your culture feels about this sort of behavior.


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## PABLO DE SOTO

In spanish soccer is so usual to fake injury that when a player doesn't behave like that and tries to go on when tackled as if nothing happened,people tend to think that he is stupid because he wasted a chance to help his team with a foul.


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## olivinha

Hi, Hockey.
You have to understand that, unlike American football, soccer is not a contact sport  And that makes all the difference. I´m not an expert on soccer, but if you are not aiming for the ball, you are not supposed to touch the other player, otherwise you are penalized. This could mean a simple faul or a penalty kick, which can be decisive in a match (a penalty kick may very well end up being a goal/score). Touching another player, depending how it´s done, can also mean a yellow card (and two means you´re out) or a red card and therefore an expulsion. So we are talking about one team playing with less than 11 players (You can lose part of your defense or part of your attack, and have to change the strategy altogether.) So do soccer players "take fake dives"? Yes, but not because they are pussies, but out of some sort of strategy. (Now, note that it could be dangerous for a player to take a fake dive, specially near the opposing team´s goal, as he/she can be also penalized.)

Having said all that, I agree with you, they over do it, and I don´t think they are being pussies: I think they are just playing dirty.
Look the article about a famous soccer player fake injury. It was so embarassingly fake, that my fellow Brazilian Rivaldo was actually fined by FIFA. Of course, he had his own explanation...

Like I said, I am not a soccer expert, but I lived in the US long enough to understand that you cannot compare soccer with American football on the basis that soccer players are pussies and American football players or Hockey players are tough. They´re totally different ball games.

O


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## Hockey13

olivinha said:


> Like I said, I am not a soccer expert, but I lived in the US long enough to understand that *you cannot compare soccer with American football on the basis that soccer players are pussies and American football players or Hockey players are tough*. They´re totally different ball games.
> 
> O


 
Nor was I doing such a thing.  I'm just relaying some of the things said about soccer players. The issue in this thread, though, is that in the US culture, I think it is overall considered unsportsmanlike to dive. I'd like to hear from a US soccer player to confirm my supposition. I'd also love to hear from football or hockey or rugby players from other countries to see how they feel about it.

I remember I was recently watching a broadcast on Fox Soccer Channel and it was a direct feed from either Sky Sports or the BBC in the UK and the color commentator was going on and on about how diving is a shame for the game of soccer and how in _his_ day, that sort of thing wouldn't have been tolerated.

Just on the side issue of hockey vs. soccer, though, there are instances where I will, for instance, fall on my butt if someone punches me in the face, but I won't act injured. If I'm bleeding, I'll show it to the ref so the other guy gets a bigger penalty, but that's it. In soccer, are the refs really so swayed by the injury since it happens every time a player goes down? Wouldn't they more appreciate a player who gets fouled and then pops up instead of lying to them about their health status?


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## jamester

Hockey13 said:


> One of the biggest complaints about soccer that I tend to hear from American sports fans is that the players are (and I quote) "pussies"  because they always fake injury when tackled or otherwise barely touched. I've personally even seen this sort of thing when the player had an otherwise good chance to score but decides to feign injury instead. The recovery times for some soccer injuries are simply miraculous.


With all the padding and body armour you wear in those American sports, is it really possible to get injured? 

For real 'manly' sports, try rugby union, rugby league, Australian Rules football, etc... you'll find no helmets or pussies there.



Hockey13 said:


> From what I noticed at last year's World Cup, _it appeared to me_ that some countries' players were more likely to take a dive and act hurt than others. I wonder how your culture feels about this sort of behavior.


I can imagine what the response to this will be, but...

Although the diving and feigning injury thing occurs will football players from *all *countries, it is definitely more commonplace and accepted as a legitimate tactic in certain countries more than others.

In the UK, we generally look down on this sort of behaviour, and players (regardless of their nationality or how skillful they are) who have a reputation as divers are usually strongly disliked.


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## sloopjc

I'm from the UK, so I know exactly what you're talking about. I'm not a football /soccer fan _per se_, but I'm intrigued as to how the "beautiful game" as it is referred to, is played. It is shameful, that's all I can say, and not in the spirit of sportsmanship. It turns the game into a spectacle. A lot of yellow cards get handed out for this kind of behaviour on the pitch. Referees and officials I believe, now have television, slow-motion replay backup, and it is not unusual for a referee today, to retract his decision based on the evidence. The irony here, is that the so-called fouls leading to the fake antics of the players on the pitch are supposed to go unnoticed, but since players who put on this 'TV' performance get picked up by the TV cameras, they are essentially hoisted by their own petard.


P.S. Hockey13, It seems I goofed about CSI being a movie on the English only thread. My apologies!


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## Hockey13

jamester said:


> With all the padding and body armour you wear in those American sports, is it really possible to get injured?
> 
> For real 'manly' sports, try rugby union, rugby league, Australian Rules football, etc... you'll find no helmets or pussies there.


 
 

Would you like to see the 3.5 inch scar across my wrist from being stepped on by a hockey skate? Helmets mostly protect us from direct impact with the boards and the fast speeds at which we travel. Boards, sticks, skates, and 80+mph pucks cause a lot of injuries, my friend.

But enough of this ridiculous banter as to whose sport is tougher...



> I can imagine what the response to this will be, but...
> 
> Although the diving and feigning injury thing occurs will football players from *all *countries, it is definitely more commonplace and accepted as a legitimate tactic in certain countries more than others.
> 
> In the UK, we generally look down on this sort of behaviour, and players (regardless of their nationality or how skillful they are) who have a reputation as divers are usually strongly disliked.


 
I agree that it is accepted as a tactic everywhere. I've been to a couple of Wake Forest University soccer games and while the diving was relatively subdued, it did exist.


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## jamester

Hockey13 said:


> I remember I was recently watching a broadcast on Fox Soccer Channel and it was a direct feed from either Sky Sports or the BBC in the UK and the color commentator was going on and on about how diving is a shame for the game of soccer and how in _his_ day, that sort of thing wouldn't have been tolerated.


You can go back as far as the 1966 World Cup (and probably further) to find examples of commentators and sports journalists talking about how the beautiful game is being destroyed by this type of non-sportsmanlike behaviour.


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## jamester

Hockey13 said:


> Would you like to see the 3.5 inch scar across my wrist from being stepped on by a hockey skate? Helmets mostly protect us from direct impact with the boards and the fast speeds at which we travel. Boards, sticks, skates, and 80+mph pucks cause a lot of injuries, my friend.
> 
> But enough of this ridiculous banter as to whose sport is tougher...


No, I wouldn't like to see your scar, but thanks for asking. 

If you don't think that a studded football boot smashing into your face, knee or shin (a very common occurence, by the way) can do any serious damage, though, then just a search in Google Images for some evidence, or perhaps ask Paul Gascoigne - probably the best English footballer of the last 20 years - to show you _his_ scars.

And yes, the "whose sport is tougher" thing is just ridiculous banter, but in the same way that many Americans seem to think that football (soccer) is a "pussies" game, without knowing almost anything about the sport, a lot of people here have the idea that American football is just overgrown guys in tight shorts and overprotective padding/armour, whooping and giving each other high fives, before some more TV ads.... but obviously they are wrong too.

As for Americans being somehow naturally more sportsmanlike (which is what I seem to detect is being said here), for us that doesn't seem very true-to-life either, as (judging by the few sporting events in which you compete internationally) we have the general idea of your sportspeople as bad losers and gloating winners who have a win-at-any-cost attitude.

But, back on topic, I agree with olivinha in that you can't really make fair comparisons between two totally different ball games.


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## Hockey13

jamester said:


> *As for Americans being somehow naturally more sportsmanlike* (which is what I seem to detect is being said here), for us that doesn't seem very true-to-life either, as (judging by the few sporting events in which you compete internationally) we have the general idea of your sportspeople as *bad losers and gloating winners who have a win-at-any-cost attitude*.


 
Where was it said that Americans are "naturally more sportsmanlike?" This is a cultural discussion. Furthermore, would you like to point out evidence where you can be justified in calling Americans bad losers and gloaters compared to any other country? I do neither of those things so does that ruin your theory? Precisely how are you justified in holding this prejudice?


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## Athaulf

Hockey13 said:


> From what I noticed at last year's [soccer] World Cup, _it appeared to me_ that some countries' players were more likely to take a dive and act hurt than others. I wonder how your culture feels about this sort of behavior.



Many Croatian soccer players from the golden generation that won the third place in the 1998 World Cup were renowned for their immense skill at both successful acting when fouled and hurting the opposing players when the referee wasn't watching. Aljoša Asanović was a particularly successful player in this regard (along with his indisputably grand skills as an attacking midfielder). Players who marked him often left the field with a bloody nose from his elbow, and yet he was sent off relatively rarely; on the other hand, on many occasions one could see him writhing in pain on the ground, after which the player who fouled him would be sent off, and Asanović would happily continue playing showing no signs of injury.  

This is probably why such tactics, along with other forms of dirtiness and referee mistakes, are not viewed that harshly in Croatia. Most people consider them as just another part of the game (though they will complain a lot when such things happen to the detriment of the Croatian team, of course).


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## Rick Shaw

Hockey,

I have the perspective of having played both soccer and hockey at the NCAA Division III level.  This was in the early 1990's, but perhaps still relevant.  

An experienced player in both sports will read how the referee is calling the game.  If a puff of wind results in a penalty or foul, how smart is it to struggle with all your might to stay upright if there is no chance of scoring on the play?  

The most egregious examples of diving come from soccer, but I have seen equally deplorable acting on the ice.  Hockey cracked down on the diving, and at least in the NHL diving is a 2:00 penalty.  Soccer, on the other hand, has better actors, worse referees, or insufficient sanctions on the guilty parties because it's out of hand.

In both soccer and hockey, it is my opinion that Americans are at a disadvantage in the international arena due to their disdain for diving.  The line between cheating and gamesmanship is a fine one, but for my money I'd like to see the U.S. a little closer to the line than they are right now.  

Regards,

R.S.

P.S.  For good examples of diving in soccer, watch Portugal play.


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## danielfranco

Since we are comparing altogether completely different sports, I remember being taught in boxing (did you think I had this beautiful face _naturally?_) that when you throw a punch and miss, you ought to follow up the motion of your punch with your elbow, just in case the opponent tries to come back at you after you miss, and you'll catch him on the face with your elbow.
That's playing dirty, but _everyone_ does it. It's expected. It's part of the game. And everyone looks down on the ones that over-do it.

I wonder, maybe we should have asked North American soccer players what they think about it, and then maybe we'd have a better point of comparisons, no?

EDIT - I mean, erm, more soccer players. We have one good example just right above me!


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## francophone

I think it's casual in foot/soccer, sometimes it looks lame, but it could be regarded as clever, like Owen's dive in the WC Argentina match, it wasn't like no one touched him, but he meant it. He clearly wanted a penalty and it was given. And it was a correct call though but he dived to get that.

Sometimes it's more like cheating, the players are noticeable and you can see how awkward it is. But some times it's cunning.


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## distille

Soccer is a sport, but it is also essentially a drama, a play, a spectacle. The scores are often pretty tight, and the opportunity of a penalty cannot be neglected. So, basically, players take advantage of all the events happening on the field, it's part of the drama. It gives us a good reason to argue for hours about why WE should have won this game and how we have been stolen from our victory... Basically soccer without bending of the rules would be a bit boring...Remember Maradonna!

Personnally, I find it irritating when I see them diving for next to nothing, and when the referee punishes diving I tend to approve, even when it concerns a player from a team I like. 
But perhaps there is also a cultural things here, in my culture, and I guess in most Southern European cultures, misbehaving can be ok if it helps your group and if you don't get caught. If you get caught, you're just a fool!


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## Outsider

I am not a big soccer fan, but my impression is that you see more diving in professional games these days than you used to. I guess the coaches must have made some statistical analyses, and concluded that that's the best strategy to win a game. It loses some of its beauty, but such is life (at least until FIFA decides to do something about it).

As Athaulf remarked, though, soccer can be a pretty violent game, when the referee is not looking.


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## ernest_

Well, one thing is diving and gamesmanship, and another thing is violent behaviour towards rival players. In general, these dirty tricks such as diving, stalling the game, and the like are okay as long they are not abused. But any team that systematically exhibits poor sportsmanlike will be frowned upon right enough. Violent game, on the other hand, is almost always received with deep loathing -- except in some cases, for instance, when is considered an act of revenge for a previous action.

There is one thing however, that is certainly never forgiven: when a player leaves his team to play for an enemy team. Such dubious though perfectly legal maneuvers are less that recommended, particularly if performed by  prominent players such as Luis Figo, because they are guaranteed to trigger extreme hatred amongst the betrayed fans, and they very often lead to lifetime ostracism.


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## Outsider

I don't see what's dubious about it. It's the law of the market. Besides, it's common for players to play against their team when they work abroad and are selected to represent their country in an international championship.


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## maxiogee

Outsider said:


> I don't see what's dubious about it. It's the law of the market. Besides, it's common for players to play against their team when they work abroad and are selected to represent their country in an international championship.


 
Sorry, run that one by me again please. It's common for players to play against _who_ when they work abroad and are selected to represent their country in an international championship?

Did you possibly mean that they might play against one or two of their team-mates from whatever league-team they work for?


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## ernest_

Aye, mate, is not the same at all! National teams play against other national teams, not against ordinary teams. And regardless of what you may think, some of us still believe in honor, loyalty and such things and we find it outrageous when someone breaks these unwritten codes.


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## Outsider

I am not going to discuss this. Sports passions are seldom rational, and I don't even care much about soccer, myself. Cheers.


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## olivinha

ernest_ said:


> And regardless of what you may think, some of us still believe in honor, loyalty and such things and we find it outrageous when someone breaks these unwritten codes.
> There is one thing however, that is certainly never forgiven: when a player leaves his team to play for an enemy team


Ernest, what on earth are you talking about? Honor, loyalty? Leaving one´s team and play for an _enemy team_?  Come on! It´s not a war. It´s only football, it´s only a game. Barcelona fans hold a grudge against Figo because he went directly from Barça to play for Real Madrid. But so what? He is a professional player. He is GETTING PAYED to play. He is playing out of a contract not loyalty. The same applies for the clubs and for the coaches: if they are not happy with a player´s overall performace, the player is out with all his honor and loyalty.
Please let´s see things as they are, so soccer does not claim another victim as it did some weeks ago in Italy. 

But this is off-topic. We were talking about diving in sports. And I wanted to bring up the last game of the 2006 World Cup. You all remember that scene of Zidanne headbutting Marco Materazzi. Well, regardless of what Materazzi said to set Zidanne off like that, what the French player did was wrong, plain and simple, wrong. But what about Materazzi´s diving? Didn´t you all think Materazzi exagerated a bit? The funny thing is that no matter how appalling such behaviours were (I mean, Materazzi insulting Zidanne, and Zidanne´s "retaliating gesture"), it all became an international joke, and was even used in comercials! And everybody thought it was funny!!
For me it was a pretty ugly, shameful ending...


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## sideburns

I play soccer in the USA and people have different views regarding diving. Some think it's ok, some hate it, etc.

I think that it's ok. If the ref isn't calling a lot of fouls and you are close to the 18 and someone is making a lot of contact, you might as well go down and get the foul. Of course, you have to use discretion when you do it. You can't pull a dive when it's really obvious.

It's just part of the game.


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## Chaska Ñawi

In light of the lack of recent posts which address the initial question, this thread is now closed and the ice cleared to make room for the zamboni.  Players and fans are asked to maintain decorum as they leave the arena.

Thank you for your understanding.


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