# All Slavic languages: ли, li, -li



## Thomas1

I was reading an article about the stress in Russian language (which is quite complicated) which says that ‘ли’ clitic is never stressed and encountered such sentences:

1 Не знаете ли Вы, когда будет электричка?

2. Хочешь ли ты пойти на выставку?

3. Женя спрашивает, будешь ли ты на заседании кафедры? 

However my question does not concern stress in Russian language, I’d like to know when do you use ‘ли’? could these questions be rewritten without this particle (or whatever it is)? If so what is the difference between those with ‘ли’ and the ones without it? In what situations would it be good to employ it?

Thanks in advance,
Thomas


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## chamizo

i think "li" comes form the word "ili" (or)
so when you say 
хочешь ли ты, you mean "do you wnat or not?" i.e
хочешь ты или нет?
anyway it must be something of that kind
идешь ли ты = идешь ты или нет?
and so on and so forth


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## Garou

1 Не знаете ли Вы, когда будет электричка? IS THE SAME AS Вы не знаете, когда будет электричка? but the former is more polite form and the latter is used moreoften in the everyday life. Though you can use both. Here's the situation:
if you are 25 yo poet dressed like dandy than you'd rather ask an aold granny passing by: Уважаемая, не знаете ли Вы, когда прибудет электричка?
But if you are just a normal man and there are normalpeople around you'd say Не знаете, когда электричка?

2. Хочешь ли ты пойти на выставку?
Same story here.Too official...


3. Женя спрашивает, будешь ли ты на заседании кафедры?

Absolutely OK in every situation. Less formal (or just informal) would be:
Женя спрашивает, ты будешь на заседании кафедры? - used in everyday life.


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## Garou

*ли+pronoun* makes it often very official.

Official: Знаешь ли ты русский?
Colloquial: Знаешь русский?

Official: Не знаете ли Вы, когда будет электричка?
Colloquial: Не знаете, когда будет электричка?

Official: Хочешь ли ты пойти на выставку?
Colloquial: Хочешь пойти на выставку?


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## Garou

chamizo said:
			
		

> i think "li" comes form the word "ili" (or)
> so when you say
> хочешь ли ты, you mean "do you wnat or not?" i.e
> хочешь ты или нет?
> anyway it must be something of that kind
> идешь ли ты = идешь ты или нет?
> and so on and so forth


 
Right you are. But it also influences the level formality/officiality


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## Thomas1

Thanks for replies 

As I conclude, _ли _is used in formal register. Would there be any difference in translation, let's say of this example:

_Official: Хочешь ли ты пойти на выставку?_
_Colloquial: Хочешь пойти на выставку?_

into English, please? Since I think translating the 1st one: _Do you want or not to go to the exhibition?,_ would be a little odd to ears, of course if we are not talking about literal translation. Would there be any formal English (alternatively Polish or French) equivalent of the _ли_ sentence?

BTW: the source which the sentences come from gives this translation: _Do you want to go to the exhibition?_ IMHO, this would be translation of the colloquial verison provided by Garou.


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## ucraniana

Thomas1 said:
			
		

> Thanks for replies
> 
> As I conclude, _ли _is used in formal register. Would there be any difference in translation, let's say of this example:
> 
> _Official: Хочешь ли ты пойти на выставку?_
> _Colloquial: Хочешь пойти на выставку?_
> 
> into English, please? Since I think translating the 1st one: _Do you want or not to go to the exhibition?,_ would be a little odd to ears, of course if we are not talking about literal translation. Would there be any formal English (alternatively Polish or French) equivalent of the _ли_ sentence?
> 
> BTW: the source which the sentences come from gives this translation: _Do you want to go to the exhibition?_ IMHO, this would be translation of the colloquial verison provided by Garou.


 
Hi Thomas1,

Well, "ли" is an emphatic word which can be used either in formal or informal speech. 

The version "Do you want to go the exhibition?" is grammatically perfect, but in the meaning it loses the sense of invitation the Russian phrase has. 

As a Russian speaker who knows English, I'd suggest in the English language the best variant is to say:

Formal:           Would you mind going to the exhibition? 
                  or Would you like to go to the exhibition?

Colloquial:       How about going to the exhibition? 
                 or Do you feel like going to the exhibition

Hopefully, I have answered your question. If no, do not be afraid to contact me.


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## cyanista

_Official: Хочешь ли ты пойти на выставку? 
It cannot be that official if you are addressing someone by their first name (на ты). That's why the whole sentence sounds weird to me.

Official would be: " (Не) хотите ли вы пойти/сходить на выставку?" - Would you like to go to the exhibition? Or: Perhaps you might want to go to the exhibition? Extremely polite  

 Colloquial: Хочешь пойти на выставку?  Do you care to go to the exhibition? Or even more colloquial: Wanna go to this exhibition?
EDIT: "Do you feel like going to the exhibition?" is a wonderful translation!



			
				Thomas1 said:
			
		


 3. Женя спрашивает, будешь ли ты на заседании кафедры? Zhenja asks whether you are going to the meeting.

Click to expand...

In this example of yours, unlike in other two, "ли" isn't used to express a polite request, it helps to form a relative (sorry!) subordinate clause. It doesn't sound formal and is fairly often used in everyday speech. You can translate such sentences into English with the help of the whether/if-clause. 
 More examples:
Позвони маме и узнай, приехали ли гости.  Call Mom and ask whether the guests arrived. 
Я не знаю, долго ли это продлится.  I don't know if it will take long.




			
				Thomas1 said:
			
		


			Женя спрашивает, ты будешь на заседании кафедры? Zhenja wants to know: are you going to the meeting? 

Click to expand...

 The sentence employs a direct question, which is perfectly OK in an informal situation.
_


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## Jana337

Thomas, doesn't "li" exist in Polish? In Czech you could use it like in your Russian examples. It would sound quite ancient  but people would understand. As far as I know, it is quite common in South Slavic languages.

In Czech, "li" is actually more frequently used in the if-clauses (mostly in written speech):
Máš-li čas, přečti si tu knihu. - If you have time, read the book.

Jana


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## Thomas1

Jana337 said:
			
		

> Thomas, doesn't "li" exist in Polish? In Czech you could use it like in your Russian examples. It would sound quite ancient but people would understand.


 Jana I was about to say „no” but reading your post to the end I checked that in a dictionary and... it really exists, however, it is an archaic form too in Polish of, who’d’a thought , _whether/if_, it was used back in ‘ancient’ times  so probably that’s why I didn’t remember it, nobody uses it anymore. Nowadays you will come it across mainly in literature (I think Mickiewicz used it), and contrary to Russian _ли_, Polish equivalent is tacked on at the end of words. Thanks for teaching me Polish.  

Ucraniana and Cyanista, thanks very much for explanations, they are very useful. 
I even thought that _Хочешь __ли __ты __пойти __на __выставку__? _could translate as _Would you like to go to the exhibition?_ or something like that, because the translation provided by my source seemed a little ‘insipid’ and not to render full Russian connotations, though wasn’t sure of it. 




			
				cyanista said:
			
		

> _Official: Хочешь ли ты пойти на выставку?
> It cannot be that official if you are addressing someone by their first name (на ты). That's why the whole sentence sounds weird to me.
> _


I realize that it is not likely to be heard while young people are chatting. Nevertheless, does that mean that even if, let’s say, two politicians know each other quite well wouldn’t say so (I mean using _ли_ and addressing one another _ты_)? Also, people with higher education use sometimes a little more formal language (at least in Polish) but not too formal since the do not want to sound too colloquial nor too formal, wouldn’t it be an alternative between formal and informal registers?

If I may, I have one more question, exploring the subject of _ли._ I came across _едва ли_ and _навряд ли_. I know they mean _hardly/scarcely rarely_, my question is: can you rephrase a sentence where _навряд/ едва ли_ was employed without using _ли_ as well? If so, would there be any changes in meaning and in translation into English, please?

Regards,
Thomas


I know it’s a little off-topic but I hope Jana won’t mind 
Do you have any modern equivalent of ‘_li_’ in Czech? For instance we have ‘czy’ which is used in everyday speech and it would translate the _if_- clauses and many (if not all) modals/auxiliaries applied in questions, e.g.: Would you like to go ….? Czy chiałbyś pójść….?; Is it going to rain tonight? Czy będzie dziś w nocy padać?, etc?


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## Juri

The same "li" is normally used in Croatian "Hoćeš li putovati sutra?"=Will you travel tomorrow?
More old stiled in Slovenian, but exist.


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## cyanista

> Originally Posted by *cyanista*
> _ Official: Хочешь ли ты пойти на выставку?
> It cannot be that official if you are addressing someone by their first name (на ты). That's why the whole sentence sounds weird to me._


_Oh, that comment was just about one sentence! Sorry if I didn't make myself clear. I didn't mean that "*Х**очешь ли ты*" cannot be used at all! There are lots of situations where it's appropriate:
*Х**очешь ли ты* завести кошку? Would you like to have a cat?
*Хочешь ли ты* стать знаменитым актером? Would you like to become a movie star? (This is not how your friend would ask you, these could be titles of newspaper articles )
But the sentence about the exhibition creates a somewhat artificial situation. Someone who knows the person he or she is addressing to well and suggests going to an exhibition (most probably together) is most likely to sound informal. "*ли*" wouldn't be used here in 99.99% of cases! (But I could imagine a robot in an eighties film saying that )

 It's a pity that so many textbook authors useexamples which are grammatically correct but lexically or stylistically flawed  A textbook for learners of Spanish that I once took from the library (by a Russian author) provided the readers with the following dialogue:
- Это стул или гвоздика? - Это стул.
(- Is it a chair or a carnation? - It's a chair.)
I'm not lying!!! 


_


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## Jana337

Thomas1[COLOR=black said:
			
		

> I know it’s a little off-topic but I hope Jana won’t mind
> Do you have any modern equivalent of ‘_li_’ in Czech? For instance we have ‘czy’ which is used in everyday speech and it would translate the _if_- clauses and many (if not all) modals/auxiliaries applied in questions, e.g.: Would you like to go ….? Czy chiałbyś pójść….?; Is it going to rain tonight? Czy będzie dziś w nocy padać?, etc?
> [/COLOR]


I don't mind but if the Slavic forum ever reaches a volume justifying the existence of separate Polish, Russian and Czech forums, it will be a nightmare to move the threads correctly because many threads that start out as monolingual eventually develop into a Panslavic discussion.  Anyway, I like it that way. 

No, there's nothing in contemporary Czech that could be thought of as an equivalent of "li". Your questions would be translated using a plain conditional, future, whatever applies. 
Chtěl bys jít ...?
Bude zítra pršet?

However, your "czy" sounds familiar to me. My grandparents used it a lot (as do my parents when they speak the Silesian dialect), but in relative clauses to express "whether", not in questions. In standard Czech, you should say "zda/zda-li" (see? -li comes up again ) and in colloquial Czech "jestli" is common.
Ještě nevím, zda/jestli přijdu.
My grandmothers would definitely believe that "či" is the only word you can use there. 

One grandmother used to say another interesting thing that I believe could have Polish roots. To express "I am thinking about going to xxx, what do you thing?", she would have said: "Či by šel do xxx, co myslíš?" This is totally unusual in Czech. It is an "impersonal he construction" (I have just invented the name) - "či (on) by šel". Is my conclusion about a Polish influence on her grammar correct? 

Jana


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## Garou

Thomas1 said:
			
		

> Nevertheless, does that mean that even if, let’s say, two politicians know each other quite well wouldn’t say so (I mean using _ли_ and addressing one another _ты_)?



They could but they wouldn't use ли anyway  They would say: Джордж, хочешь посетить на вытсавку? - Да, Володя, хочу. (George, do you want to visit the exhibition? Yes, Volodya, i do.)
 


			
				Thomas1 said:
			
		

> If I may, I have one more question, exploring the subject of _ли._ I came across _едва ли_ and _навряд ли_. I know they mean _hardly/scarcely rarely_, my question is: can you rephrase a sentence where _навряд/ едва ли_ was employed without using _ли_ as well? If so, would there be any changes in meaning and in translation into English, please?


 
Навряд is never used without ли, because there's no such word навряд.
Едва may be used:
http://www.google.ru/search?hl=ru&q=%22%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B2%D0%B0%22&lr=


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## ucraniana

Hi,

About li-issue. In Russian, this particle is used to express invitation, polite suggestion or emphasis. It is used normally in indirect speech meaning yes/no questions, and it may be used to beautify the speech.

Examples:

Не хочешь ли прогуляться? (invitation)
Тебе ли судить? (expressive suggestion: it's not you to judge!)
Надо ли это делать? = Стоит ли это делать (или не стоит?)
(wondering)
Он ненормальный, что ли? (totally colloquial expression - great surprise or disapproval?)
Навряд ли ему понравится. (This is a fixed expression, you cannot use Навряд separately).

And by the way: in Ukrainian it's very common to say "chy":

"Чи ти поїла?" (colloquial - Have you eaten anything?)
"Чи ти знаєшь цю казку?" (Do you know this tale?)
"Він не знав, чи варто це робити." (he didn't know if it was worth to do)
"Чи він з глузду з'їхав?" (Has he gone mad or what?)

Hopefully, it will add up to Ukrainian studies.


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## Diaspora

In Serbo-Croatian there's nothing ancient about -li, it's used both formally and informally.


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