# Persian: تيره



## Jamshed Aslam

I know that "tire" means "dark", but what does it mean here:

خرد تیره و مرد روشن روان نباشد همی شادمان یک زمان


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## soheil1

dark.


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## Jamshed Aslam

But then how would you translate kherad-e tire? "The dark wisdom"?


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## IRAJ2000

Tire means bad and disapproval in this case.
Kherad-e tire means bad thoughts.
A person whose thoughts are bad or he/she uses his/her wisdom in a bad way has kherad - e- tire


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## PersoLatin

xerade tiré suggests wisdom that is used for 'wrong doing', so* مرد خرد تیره* uses his wisdom to commit wrong/negative acts, in contrast to *مرد روشن روان*


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## Jamshed Aslam

But then how would you translate the whole sentence? "Dark/evil wisdom and the man of sound mentality..."? It doesn't make any sense.


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## PersoLatin

Read the first verse as مرد خرد تیره و مرد روشن روا ن (marde xerad tiré va marde roŝan ravân)
خرد تیره و مرد روشن روا ن − نباشد همی شادمان یک زمان


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## fdb

In this verse the metre (mutaqārib) requires xerad-tīra (not xerad e tīra); it is a compound: “dark in his mind”.


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## fdb

Or rather in early NP: xiraδ-tēra.


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## PersoLatin

fdb said:


> In this verse the metre (mutaqārib) requires xerad-tīra (not xerad e tīra);


Of course you are correct fdb, not only xerade tiré breaks the meter, it also makes no sense in the context, as xerad-tiré is the adjective for مرد.



PersoLatin said:


> xerade tiré suggests wisdom that is used for 'wrong doing'


The intention was to explain tiré, اندیشه ی تیره orفکر would have been a better examples.


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## James Bates

Shouldn't it have been tire-kherad, on the pattern of پاک دامن and بد لباس?


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## PersoLatin

James Bates said:


> Shouldn't it have been tire-kherad, on the pattern of پاک دامن and بد لباس?


I'm not sure which post you are referring to, as a compound adjective tiré-xerad is the same as xerad-tiré, and also correct.


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## James Bates

I meant in

خرد تیره و مرد روشن روان نباشد همی شادمان یک زمان

By the way, what is this line supposed to mean?

The dark-minded (man) and the sane man are not happy for a moment?

Here is the complete context: 

ازو شادمانی و زویت غمیست وُ زویت فزونی و هم زو کمیست
خرد تیره و مرد روشن روان نباشد همی شادمان یک زمان
چه گفت آن سَخُنگوی مرد از خرد که دانا ز گفتار او برخورد:
کسی کو خرد را ندارد ز پیش دلش گردد از کردهٔ خویش ریش

(شاهنامه/آغاز کتاب - ویکی‌نبشته)


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## fdb

PersoLatin said:


> I'm not sure which post you are referring to, as a compound adjective tiré-xerad is the same as xerad-tiré, and also correct.



I agree that the meaning is very much the same, although these are structurally two different types of compounds. tīra-xirad is an exocentric compound (what the Sanskrit grammarians call bahuvrīhi) “whose mind is dark”. xirad-tīra is a determinative compound (tatpuruṣa) “dark in the mind”.


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## fdb

James Bates said:


> I meant in
> 
> خرد تیره و مرد روشن روان نباشد همی شادمان یک زمان
> 
> By the way, what is this line supposed to mean?
> 
> The dark-minded (man) and the sane man are not happy for a moment?
> 
> Here is the complete context:
> 
> ازو شادمانی و زویت غمیست وُ زویت فزونی و هم زو کمیست
> خرد تیره و مرد روشن روان نباشد همی شادمان یک زمان
> چه گفت آن سَخُنگوی مرد از خرد که دانا ز گفتار او برخورد:
> کسی کو خرد را ندارد ز پیش دلش گردد از کردهٔ خویش ریش
> 
> (شاهنامه/آغاز کتاب - ویکی‌نبشته)



Yes, exactly. Neither the madman nor the sage is ever happy.


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## PersoLatin

James Bates said:


> Shouldn't it have been tire-kherad...?


I see. tiré-xerad doesn't fit the meter but means the same.

however,


James Bates said:


> on the pattern of پاک دامن and بد لباس?


There seems (from observation) to be a different rule when it comes to compound adjectives that are made up of two adjectives (AA_Grp). I'm sure others can elaborate here (Also see Order of juxtaposed stems in compound words on EHL).

The order of constituent adjectives of AA_Grp, can be swapped and meaning stays the same, where in the case of بد لباس, it can't, so لباس بد (lebâs-bad) is wrong or at least unusual, and لباس بد(lebâse bad) doesn't mean بد لباس (bad lebâs).

Sorry fdb, I was too slow and didn't see your post #14 above, which is what I was hoping we'd get.


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