# article before a person's name



## bazzaf

Tried to search for this but I'm not sure what it would be listed as, so sorry if I'm repeating anything...

I've heard spanish-speakers talk about people in a sentence and put 'el' or 'la' before the name, but other times they don't.

2 examples: 

Estoy en casa con el David

Se fue Javier a las 6 por la mañana


Could someone explain the rule here for me? Many thanks in advance


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## Latuamacchina

In some countries it has a pejorative connotation.  In other countries (I believe) it suggests affection.


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## Little Chandler

En esta entrada del DPD (punto 4) tienes una explicación.

Por si te interesa, en "mi parte del mundo" (hay otras zonas hispanohablantes donde es más frecuente) sólo se utiliza en contextos muy informales, generalmente entre "colegas". Este podría ser un ejemplo:

_¿Viste a la piba del Rober? La tía está que te cagas._

Bueno, yo esto no lo diría, pero sí que se escucha.


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## Adolfo Afogutu

bazzaf said:


> Could someone explain the rule here for me?


The rule is simple: do not use it and you will never make a mistake. As Latuamacchina has said, it is something common in some countries, like in Chile, if my memory serves me correctly. I use "el" before a name to talk to my dog. He doesn't care about my grammar.
Regards


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## ampurdan

It is not very correct to use the definite article before names of people.

It is not uncommon at all here in Catalonia. I think it is an influence of Catalan, but strangely enough, I'd say I have only heard it used in Spanish from people having Spanish as first language.

I think in some places in Latin America, it is considered belittling for the person so referred to. At least that's what a Chilean guy told me once.


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## juandiego

Regardless its correctness, my impression is that it adds some sort of emphasis on the individual's personality, as if what it's said of him could not belong to any other. But do not take this too seriously, it's just something subtle that must be taken with a pinch of salt.


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## ampurdan

I don't really know, but be that as it may, surely you would not use it in a formal situation?


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## juandiego

No, I wouldn't, Ampurdan. I know it's not right, formally speaking. But its use belongs to our language as well.

Around myself, it's seldom but used, normally with the aforementioned intention as far as you deem the context allows it.


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## bazzaf

By chance, I just spoke to a chilean friend and she said she doesn't think there's any difference, she uses both herself but she thinks that without the article sounds a bit more correct. I live in Barcelona so maybe it is a catalan thing. I guess it's one of those unconscious things that native speakers somehow know but that can't really be taught. I had the same response from people about using quiza vs quizas.

Thanks everyone for your help!
B


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## Södertjej

juandiego said:


> Regardless its correctness, my impression is that it adds some sort of emphasis on the individual's personality, as if what it's said of him could not belong to any other.


I was actually taught the opposite. Adding an article is treating a person like a thing, nothing endearing about it. Never used it, always find it odd when I hear people using it.

La/el + adjective + de + name is perfectly ok, even if colloquial and often used in pejoractive contexts.

El listo de Juan ha vuelto a perder las llaves.


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## alexfanuc

bazzaf said:


> Tried to search for this but I'm not sure what it would be listed as, so sorry if I'm repeating anything...
> 
> I've heard spanish-speakers talk about people in a sentence and put 'el' or 'la' before the name, but other times they don't.
> 
> 2 examples:
> 
> Estoy en casa con el David
> 
> Se fue Javier a las 6 por la mañana
> 
> 
> Could someone explain the rule here for me? Many thanks in advance


You wouldn`t write "Estoy en casa con el David". You might say it.
I think that when you talk to a friend about a person that you both know well, you may  say "el David" but you`re hiding the adjective, in this case it could mean  Estoy en casa con el (buen) David or Estoy en casa con el (idiota de) David. The other person just would fill in the blank in his mind.
What do you think?


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## Södertjej

alexfanuc said:


> I think that when you talk to a friend about a person that you both know well, you may  say "el David" but you`re hiding the adjective, in this case it could mean  Estoy en casa con el (buen) David or Estoy en casa con el (idiota de) David. The other person just would fill in the blank in his mind.
> What do you think?


Que en España no hacemos eso. Hay gente que usa los artículos con los nombres y gente que no, pero eso no implica que haya adjetivos implícitos.


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## juandiego

Södertjej said:


> I was actually taught the opposite. Adding an article is treating a person like a thing, nothing endearing about it. Never used it, always find it odd when I hear people using it.
> 
> La/el + adjective + de + name is perfectly ok, even if colloquial and often used in pejoractive contexts.
> 
> El listo de Juan ha vuelto a perder las llaves.


I don't think the point I brought up is the opposite of what you say, Södertjej. I don't mean endearing but just something typical of the personality, it will be the context which makes clear whether this characteristic is good or bad. However, there are times when it's used as a sign of esteem, sympathy or closeness.

_¡Quién iba a ser sino la Juana la que me regalara esto!_


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## OHSU

I know that this construction is common in certain social classes in Ecuador, and is used as a term of endearment.  People who use it are typically friends and family, and the usage implies some kind of an intimate bond.

I don't mean to imply that this is its ONLY usage (in Ecuador or elsewhere).  I am just saying that I'm aware that it is used this way by some people some of the time.


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## Södertjej

juandiego said:


> _¡Quién iba a ser sino la Juana la que me regalara esto!_


Eso no ha salido jamás de mi boca ni de nadie de mi entorno. No estoy habituada a esa manera de hablar.

Con una perra sí lo decíamos, pero es que se llamaba Pepa y debía de ser por aquello de viva la Pepa que la llamábamos así, porque con el resto de los bichos no usamos artículos.


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## elirlandes

Se ve este fenomeno mucho en Andalucia, sobretodo de gente de zona socio-económico más humilde.

_¿'ónde 'tá la Juana? Y er Juanele __¿le has vi'to?

"er" para "el"...
_


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## carola_fariasm

In Chile, that "el" before a name is currently used (unfortunately), but it as a negative cultural connotation. However, the "la" before a woman's name is used informally (although there is no negative connotation).
El David (baaaad)
La Carola (it's OK)

Felices fiestas


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## PININOS

En México no se utiliza el artículo (el, la, los, las) cuando te refieres a personas con su nombre propio. Para objetos, animales y cosas si los empleas.

Si una persona se llama Luis no le llamas El Luis (es tomado como una falta al hablar, es algo no formal). Le llamas Luis.

Para el lenguaje informal es común emplear los artículos, ejemplo Luis tiene como nickname "chango", por lo que al referirte a el diras "El chango".


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## ampurdan

carola_fariasm said:


> In Chile, that "el" before a name is currently used (unfortunately), but it as a negative cultural connotation. However, the "la" before a woman's name is used informally (although there is no negative connotation).
> El David (baaaad)
> La Carola (it's OK)
> 
> Felices fiestas



But a Chilean told me once that "_la_ Ana", "_la_ Marta" was the way people in Chile (I guess he meant "the well-to-do people") referred to the maid.


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## juandiego

To add what the DPD has to say on the matter:

*4. Artículo con antropónimos*.

En la lengua culta, los nombres propios de persona se emplean normalmente sin artículo:_ Juan es un tipo simpático; No he visto a María desde el mes pasado_. La anteposición del artículo, en estos casos, suele ser propia del habla popular: _«Un señor mayor chiquiaba mucho a la María»_ (Medina Cosas [Méx. 1990]). No obstante, hay zonas del ámbito hispánico, por ejemplo en Chile, donde esta anteposición se da también en el habla culta, habitualmente en registros coloquiales y especialmente ante nombres de mujer: _«Creo que las mujeres siguen siendo estupendas periodistas. Está la Patricia Verdugo, la Patricia Politzer»_ (Hoy [Chile] 8-14.12.97).

La anteposición del artículo al nombre propio es obligatoria cuando este se usa en plural, con finalidad generalizadora: _«Los Curros no tienen problemas y los Pacos sí»_ (Vanguardia [Esp.] 30.7.95); o cuando, en singular, el nombre propio va seguido de complementos especificativos o lleva un calificativo antepuesto: _«El Pablo que yo conocía existió»_ (Pavlovsky Pablo [Arg. 1987]); _«Como decía el gran Antonio Mingote en cierta ocasión [...]: “Al cielo, lo que se dice ir al cielo, iremos los de siempre”»_ (Ussía Tratado III [Esp. 1995]). Por otra parte, en todo el ámbito hispánico es habitual que los apellidos de mujeres célebres vayan precedidos de artículo: _«La Caballé preparó un recital “no demasiado largo”»_ (Abc [Esp.] 14.10.86).​
Contrary to what I thought, it doesn't state it's incorrect or not advisable in general but just relates its usage depending on areas and educated level.


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## OHSU

elirlandes said:


> Se ve este fenomeno mucho en Andalucia, sobretodo de gente de zona socio-económico más humilde.
> 
> _¿'ónde 'tá la Juana? Y er Juanele __¿le has vi'to?_
> 
> _"er" para "el"..._


 
Ha, ha!  I LOVE it.


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## PichaPuerto

As ElIrlandes mentioned it is very common to hear it in some parts of Andalucia.


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## Ushuaia

It is very common around here as well, but it does carry a lower class stigma. The main character in the film "La Mary" (/mari/) was a poor girl, but one doesn't need to watch it to know that: it's implied in the film's name. 

In middle classes, some families use it as a term of endearment and some just don't.

It is also typical of rural environments. My brother moved to a very small town a few months ago; when my 4 year old niece recently asked whether her friend Aixa had arrived, her 2 year old sister corrected her: "se dice LA Aixa". This is now a family anecdote.


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## Södertjej

Ushuaia said:


> It is very common around here as well, but it does carry a lower class stigma. The main character in the film "La Mary" (/mari/) was a poor girl, but one doesn't need to watch it to know that: it's implied in the film's name.


El mismo caso de la película española "Yo soy la Juani".


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## caniho

elirlandes said:


> Se ve este fenomeno mucho en Andalucia, sobretodo de gente de zona socio-económico más humilde.
> 
> _¿'ónde 'tá la Juana? Y er Juanele __¿_le lo_ has vi'to?
> 
> "er" para "el"...
> _



That's to say, nearly every one. I remember that, when I was a child, only very posh children would name their siblings without the article. Many people abandon this popular custom as they grow up, but keep it with very close friends and relatives.


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## juandiego

Ushuaia said:


> It is very common around here as well, but it does carry a lower class stigma. The main character in the film "La Mary" (/mari/) was a poor girl, but one doesn't need to watch it to know that: it's implied in the film's name.
> 
> In middle classes, some families use it as a term of endearment and some just don't.
> 
> It is also typical of rural environments. My brother moved to a very small town a few months ago; when my 4 year old niece recently asked whether her friend Aixa had arrived, her 2 year old sister corrected her: "se dice LA Aixa". This is now a family anecdote.


I'd say that exactly the same way around here, Ushuaia.

Just to add that it is something what you could resort to now and then in case you want to cause some sort of impression on the interlocutor, without regard to the class you belong, since it puts intensification on the name.

I agree, however, that in general it could be deemed as a low-educated class register around here or my surroundings.


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