# O erre duplo



## jonquiliser

Olá!

Desculpen se já se tivesse perguntado, resultou-me raro mas não encontrei nada sobre o tema no fórum.

A minha dúvida se refere à letra erre dobre (é assim que se diz?). Pensava que se pronúncia mais ou menos como o iota espanhol, mais escuitando Dulce Pontes canta "terra" com um erre 'francês', parece-me (como em "Paris"). É isso o comúm en Portugal?

Obrigada!


----------



## Outsider

jonquiliser said:


> A minha dúvida se refere à letra erre dobre (é assim que se diz?).


Pode dizer "erre duplo" ou "duplo erre", embora não seja muito habitual, parece-me. Não se considera uma letra.  



jonquiliser said:


> Pensava que se pronúncia mais ou menos como o jota espanhol, mais escuitando Dulce Pontes canta "terra" com um erre 'francês', parece-me (como em "Paris"). É isso o comúm en Portugal?


A pronúncia do _rr_ varia bastante com os dialectos, e mesmo de pessoa para pessoa. Tivemos algumas discussões sobre isto aqui no fórum, mas para já remeto-a para a Wikipedia.


----------



## jonquiliser

Estupendo, muito obrigada!


----------



## avok

Yes, in Portuguese portuguese the "rr" is pronounced like French r. All the speakers on RTP have this pronunciation.

In Brazil it is pronounced either like English "h", or like French "r" or in between or like German harsh "ch". 

The only Portuguese accent that's got Spanish "rr" for the "rr" in Portuguese seems to be the African accents. (some of them have French r though, as they immitate, I guess, European Portuguese.)


----------



## Outsider

avok said:


> Yes, in Portuguese portuguese the "rr" is pronounced like French r.


There is not a unique French "r". The Parisian "r" is supposedly a trill, whereas the Portuguese rarely pronounce "rr" as a trill (it's a fricative for most of us). Still, the two sounds _are_ similar...



avok said:


> All the speakers on RTP have this pronunciation.
> 
> [...]
> 
> The only Portuguese accent that's got Spanish "rr" for the "rr" in Portuguese seems to be the African accents.


Not true! Pay more attention.



avok said:


> (some of them have French r though, as they immitate, I guess, European Portuguese.)


They have as much right to "imitate" us as we do to "imitate" them, which, if you put it that way, some of us do.


----------



## avok

Why are you so upset, Outsider?


----------



## Outsider

I am not upset, I just don't like the way you presented the facts. Are the Africans "imitating" us? In a sense, they are, but then again why did the French-like "r" spread in Portugal, in the first place? Because _we_ "imitated" each other. Every new change that happens in a language spreads through imitation. It's a linguistic fact of life.


----------



## Jeromed

avok said:


> In Brazil it is pronounced either like English "h", or like French "r" or in between or like German harsh "ch".


I've never heard rr pronounced as English h in Brazil, although in the southeastern states it's often pronounced similar to an American r.



> The only Portuguese accent that's got Spanish "rr" for the "rr" in Portuguese seems to be the African accents.


Not true. I've heard if often in Sao Paulo (city) and in Rio Grande do Sul. Not quite the same sound, though (The Spanish rr sound varies across the Spanish-speaking world, anyway).


----------



## Outsider

Jeromed said:


> I've never heard rr pronounced as English h in Brazil, although in the southeastern states it's often pronounced similar to an American r.


I've read in various sources that the Brazilian "rr" can indeed be pronounced as an , and I'm pretty convinced that I've heard it pronounced that way.

The American-"r" pronunciation is regarded as regional.


----------



## Jeromed

> Outsider: I've read in various sources that the Brazilian "rr" can indeed be pronounced as an , and I'm pretty convinced that I've heard it pronounced that way.


OK. I've just never heard it, or haven't noticed.



> The American-"r" pronunciation is regarded as regional.


Yes, it's used mostly in Paraná and in the interior of SP state, which adds up to a total of about 20 million speakers*! It's not considered a prestige pronunciation by the Carioca and Paulistana elites.

 *My hasty estimate


----------



## Alandria

Jeromed said:


> I've never heard rr pronounced as English h in Brazil, although in the southeastern states it's often pronounced similar to an American r.
> 
> Not true. I've heard if often in Sao Paulo (city) and in Rio Grande do Sul. Not quite the same sound, though (The Spanish rr sound varies across the Spanish-speaking world, anyway).


----------



## uchi.m

jonquiliser said:


> A minha dúvida se refere à letra erre dobre (é assim que se diz?)



Eu sempre chamei _rr_ de _erre-erre_, mas não sei dizer se é correto assim.


----------



## uchi.m

Jeromed said:


> OK. I've just never heard it, or haven't noticed.
> 
> Yes, it's used mostly in Paraná and in the interior of SP state, which adds up to a total of about 20 million speakers*! It's not considered a prestige pronunciation by the Carioca and Paulistana elites.
> 
> *My hasty estimate



Your estimate is already fairly good, but it appears you forget part of MG and GO states, so that the real amount would be over 30 million people.


----------



## MOC

avok said:


> Yes, in Portuguese portuguese the "rr" is pronounced like French r. All the speakers on RTP have this pronunciation.
> 
> In Brazil it is pronounced either like English "h", or like French "r" or in between or like German harsh "ch".
> 
> The only Portuguese accent that's got Spanish "rr" for the "rr" in Portuguese seems to be the African accents. (some of them have French r though, as they immitate, I guess, European Portuguese.)


 
Those generalizations aren't completely accurate. I've heard at least three different ways of pronouncing it, and that's without needing to search anywhere.
The spanish "r" isn't the most common, but I know enough people who pronounce it that way to make it count.
And there's also Uvular trills and the most common fricatives.

And, I've also heard the "x" sound (velar) for "rr" although this one is rare in Portugal.


----------



## MOC

uchi.m said:


> Eu sempre chamei _rr_ de _erre-erre_, mas não sei dizer se é correto assim.


 
Eu chamo-lhe o "dois erres" e ao "ss", o "dois esses" mas tenho noção que a minha forma de tratamento é muito primária.


----------



## Ricardo Tavares

MOC said:


> Eu chamo-lhe o "dois erres" e ao "ss", o "dois esses" mas tenho noção que a minha forma de tratamento é muito primária.



Interessante.... para o caso de rr, eu digo erre-erre, mas para ss, eu digo também dois esses.

Igualmente, entendo que o som do rr (carro) é bem parecido com o "h" do inglês em palavras como "hot", "house", "hospital", etc. Mas, não é o caso do espanhol.


----------



## avok

Brazilians definitely pronounce "rr" as English "h", I am not going to bail out so easily on that one. The Brazilian "rr" as "h" is the first mark of a brazilian accent. That's why when Brazilians speak French they pronounce the French word "rien" as "hien"(and I heard enough brazilians speaking French) and the brazilian word for "terra" is "teha" but I hear French r sometimes when I listen to some Brazilians. Especially those from Rio. They certainly have some kind of French R that also sounds a bit like harsh "h" (the German harsh ch) so "terra" becomes "texa" or teRa" or whatever mostly in between.
Elis Regina has French "r" when she sings, the one that sounds like "rrrrrrr" or "RRRRR" . But Maria Bethania has a harsh "h" like the German "ch". Caetano tends to have "h" in a more standard way.



> There is not a unique French "r".


Believe me I know that. Read this 





> The French language is perhaps the most well-known example of a language with a guttural rhotic, to the extent that this pronunciation is widely stereotyped. So when I say the French r I am not talking about the French r of Edith Piaf.  And yes French r is so soft in comparison with portuguese portuguese r, so portuguese portuguses r in fact closer to belgian french r or german "ch" very harsh indeed for my ears.


 


> I've never heard rr pronounced as English h in Brazil,


 
So which Brazil are you talking about ? Is it in our world? Then how do Brazilians pronounce the word "terra"? 




> am not upset, I just don't like the way you presented the facts. Are the Africans "imitating" us? In a sense, they are, but then again why did the French-like "r" spread in Portugal, in the first place? Because _we_ "imitated" each other. Every new change that happens in a language spreads through imitation. It's a linguistic fact of life.


 
I did not understand any of this sorry it is beyond my IQ. I must be so stupid to understand the way you presented the facts. Or you just dont like a non-native speaker to talk about your language. I can understand that though. 



> Those generalizations aren't completely accurate


Yes...... because they are "general"izations. There are of course always exceptions but I am not an expert on Portuguese dialectology. If you know more you can always help jonquiliser.


people who think my generalizations are not accurate, people who think I patronize them about their mother tongue, people who "never" heard "h" in Brazilian Portuguese. You can all read this quotes from Wikipedia. I know you all love Wikipedia (more than I do) believe me I did not write Wikipedia.



> ....and the word "rock" is rendered as [*ˈh*ɔki]. (Initial /r/ and doubled 'r' are pronounced *in BP as , * as with syllable-final [r].)






> However, in the 19th century the voiced uvular fricative *[ʁ]* penetrated the upper classes in the region of Lisbon in Portugal, and by the late 20th century it had replaced the alveolar trill in most of the country's urban areas. In the rural regions, the trill is still dominant, but most of the country's population currently lives in or near the cities. The uvular trill [ʀ] is also heard sometimes. In *Africa,* the classical alveolar *trill *is mostly still* dominant*, due to isolation.


 


> The French language is perhaps the most well-known example of a language with a guttural rhotic, to the extent that this pronunciation is widely stereotyped. In the standard dialect of Paris, it is pronounced as a trill (IPA: [ʀ]), while in most of the rest of northern France it is pronounced as a voiced *([ʁ])* or voiceless uvular fricative *([÷]).*


 
Now go on ...


----------



## Kakeru

Eu sempre usei "dois erres" pra _rr_ e "dois esses" pra _ss_.


----------



## Vanda

> Brazilians definitely pronounce "rr" as English "h", I am not going to bail out so easily on that one. The Brazilian "rr" as "h" is the first mark of a brazilian accent. That's why when Brazilians speak French they pronounce the French word "rien" as "hien"(and I heard enough brazilians speaking French) and the brazilian word for "terra" is "teha" but I hear French r sometimes when I listen to some Brazilians. Especially those from Rio. They certainly have some kind of French R that also sounds a bit like harsh "h" (the German harsh ch) so "terra" becomes "texa" or teRa" or whatever mostly in between.
> Elis Regina has French "r" when she sings, the one that sounds like "rrrrrrr" or "RRRRR" .



I do. I say teha, hien, Hio, Hegina...


----------



## jazyk

> Brazilians definitely pronounce "rr" as English "h", I am not going to bail out so easily on that one. The Brazilian "rr" as "h" is the first mark of a brazilian accent.


Not all Brazilians. Why don't we just live and let live?


----------



## MOC

avok said:


> Brazilians definitely pronounce "rr" as English "h", I am not going to bail out so easily on that one. The Brazilian "rr" as "h" is the first mark of a brazilian accent. That's why when Brazilians speak French they pronounce the French word "rien" as "hien"(and I heard enough brazilians speaking French) and the brazilian word for "terra" is "teha" but I hear French r sometimes when I listen to some Brazilians. Especially those from Rio. They certainly have some kind of French R that also sounds a bit like harsh "h" (the German harsh ch) so "terra" becomes "texa" or teRa" or whatever mostly in between.
> Elis Regina has French "r" when she sings, the one that sounds like "rrrrrrr" or "RRRRR" . But Maria Bethania has a harsh "h" like the German "ch". Caetano tends to have "h" in a more standard way.
> 
> 
> Believe me I know that. Read this
> 
> 
> 
> So which Brazil are you talking about ? Is it in our world? Then how do Brazilians pronounce the word "terra"?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I did not understand any of this sorry it is beyond my IQ. I must be so stupid to understand the way you presented the facts. Or you just dont like a non-native speaker to talk about your language. I can understand that though.
> 
> 
> Yes...... because they are "general"izations. There are of course always exceptions but I am not an expert on Portuguese dialectology. If you know more you can always help jonquiliser.
> 
> 
> people who think my generalizations are not accurate, people who think I patronize them about their mother tongue, people who "never" heard "h" in Brazilian Portuguese. You can all read this quotes from Wikipedia. I know you all love Wikipedia (more than I do) believe me I did not write Wikipedia.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now go on ...


 

We don't have a problem with you discussing portuguese. There's a bunch of non-native portuguese speakers in this forum whose input is always appreciated because we know they have a good knowledge of the language. The thing is you're saying everyone in a country of 10/12 million people (in the case of Portugal) speaks a certain way. With Brazil would obviously be even harder to make such a generalization since São Paulo alone has about the same population as Portugal.


What we were refuting is the conclusive way you presented the facts:

"Yes, in Portuguese portuguese the "rr" is pronounced like French r. *All *the speakers on RTP have this pronunciation.
...
The *only* Portuguese accent that's got Spanish "rr" for the "rr" in Portuguese seems to be the African accents.
"

Sentences such as this one will make any foreigner who reads it assume that EVERY portuguese speaks like that. That would mean for example, that my aunt isn't portuguese, despite the fact she has barely ever left the country. She isn't african either and that doesn't take away the fact that her "r" is the spanish one.

"In Brazil it is pronounced either like English "h", or like French "r" or in between or like German harsh "ch"."

Nobody is denying that those phonemes or at least approximants of those are common in Brazil, but you present it in such a way that any foreigner who hasn't had much contact with BP, would think those are the only ways the "r" could ever be said in Brazil.


Another thing, I never said you were wrong. I said "your generalizations aren't completely accurate", that's the way I put it. While your way to present facts is closer to this: "Brazilians definitely pronounce "rr" as English "h"," Do you really think 180 million people talk the exact same way? ; or even this one: "The Brazilian "rr" as "h" is the first mark of a brazilian accent." Just because it's the first mark for you, doesn't mean it is the first mark (for everyone else), period. For *me* for example it's easier to identify a Brazilian by the way the "l" in the end of a syllable is pronounced. It doesn't mean it is the same for everyone else, but for me it is.

Nobody here wants you to stop taking part of the discussions in the portuguese forum, unlike your conspiracy theory seems to suggest "Or you just dont like a non-native speaker to talk about your language.". As I said before, we have a bunch of non-native speakers in the portuguese forum and I can say there are a few in here who I'd rather talk to about the language, than to most native speakers in my own country.

However, overgeneralizations and stereotypes are never good, no matter how you look at it, and that's what I was trying to avoid.


And just to end my post:

You posted this below,

Originally Posted by *avok* 

 
Yes, in Portuguese portuguese the "rr" is pronounced like French r.


To what Outsider replied with:

"There is not a unique French "r". The Parisian "r" is supposedly a trill, whereas the Portuguese rarely pronounce "rr" as a trill (it's a fricative for most of us). Still, the two sounds _are_ similar..."


He admitted the similiraties between the two "r" only explaining there's more than one french "r" and that the Parisian "r" is a trill (something I for one wouldn't know) while the "rr" is a fricative for most portuguese people.

And then you posted this out of wikipedia:

"The French language is perhaps the most well-known example of a language with a guttural rhotic, to the extent that this pronunciation is widely stereotyped. In the standard dialect of Paris, it is pronounced as a trill (IPA: [ʀ]), while in most of the rest of northern France it is pronounced as a voiced *([ʁ])* or voiceless uvular fricative *([÷])."*


Where does it refutes what Outsider wrote previously? Judging by that wikipedia article you posted, french does indeed have more than one phoneme for "r", and the parisian dialect does have a trill sound for "r".

Or was it directed towards another poster?


----------



## Jeromed

I am an American who lived several years in Brazil, used to be married to a Brazilian, and is fluent in Portuguese (with little or no accent, according to many native Brazilians).  

Although I'm just an amateur when it comes to phonetics, I have a good ear and will dare say that:

1.  Not a single Brazilian pronounces his/her rr's as if it were an American h (if they think they do, they're mistaken).
2.  Most Brazilians cannot pronounce an American h and not sound foreign.

To me the sound is similar but not the same.  My ex-wife, who is a Paulistana, pronounces her double rr's like (what is known as) a French r.  Her mother, who is old-school, uses a sound very close to Spanish rr.

Again, these are just personal impressions, and not to be taken as dogma.


----------



## Outsider

Thanks for the support, *MOC*, but I after some thinking I came to the conclusion that I was being too harsh with Avok. 



avok said:


> I did not understand any of this sorry it is beyond my IQ. I must be so stupid to understand the way you presented the facts. Or you just dont like a non-native speaker to talk about your language. I can understand that though.


I did not mean to imply that at all, and I apologize if my reply to you yesterday offended you.


----------



## maralto

uchi.m said:


> Eu sempre chamei _rr_ de _erre-erre_, mas não sei dizer se é correto assim.


 
Creio que é co*rr*ecto dizer: R duplo ou S duplo...

Mas por que razão tantos _Rs e Fs_ (lembram-se disto?) por causa do R??? é apenas uma letrinha!


----------



## jonquiliser

Oh, I didn't realise this would be so controversial 

I didn't mean for you to tell me "how Portuguese speak", I was just wondering about common tendencies. R is among the letter with most variation in pronounciation anyway. Thank you all for your input


----------



## Vanda

JQr I am still trying to understand why every time we begin to discuss pronunciation we lose our heads. Subject for a thesis, hein? Well, we had another loooooooooong discussion about the letter R in this thread. As you can see in the end we are discussing the same things over and over again.


----------



## jazyk

Exactly, that's why I said _Live and let live._


----------



## MOC

Vanda said:


> JQr I am still trying to understand why every time we begin to discuss pronunciation we lose our heads. Subject for a thesis, hein? Well, we had another loooooooooong discussion about the letter R in this thread. As you can see in the end we are discussing the same things over and over again.


 

Thanks for the link to that thread Vanda. I had lost a link Outsider had shown in that thread and was looking for it for a long time. Tá favoritado.


----------



## jonquiliser

Vanda said:


> JQr I am still trying to understand why *every time we begin to discuss pronunciation we lose our heads*. Subject for a thesis, hein? Well, we had another loooooooooong discussion about the letter R in this thread. As you can see in the end we are discussing the same things over and over again.



Hehe, so it seems  Thanks for the link, I'm heading there now


----------

