# If the situation unravels



## indoctus

Hola a todos.

Hay una palabra que se usa mucho en inglés (unravel) que significa que algo, por ejemplo una situación, se está poniendo fuera de control, en general, peor.

Parece que las palabras "desenredarse" y "desenmarañarse" sirve bien la traducción, pero en lugar de usar estas palabras en el contexto de "hilo" y "cuerda",  ¿es posible que podamos usarlas cuando una situación "unravels".

Texto:

If the situation unravels there is the possibility of establishing a declared or undeclared Salafist principality in eastern Syria (declassified DIA document Aug 12, 2012, File # 14-L-0552/DIA)

Si la situación se desenreda hay una posibilidad que se establece un principado de un estado salafisto declarado o no declarado en siria este.

Gracias antemano


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## chileno

Usa mejor "aclarar" 


indoctus said:


> Hola a todos.
> 
> Hay una palabra que se usa mucho en inglés (unravel) que significa que algo, por ejemplo una situación, se está poniendo fuera de control, en general, peor.
> 
> Parece que las palabras "desenredarse" y "desenmarañarse" sirve bien la traducción, pero en lugar de usar estas palabras en el contexto de "hilo" y "cuerda",  ¿es posible que podamos usarlas cuando una situación "unravels".
> 
> Texto:
> 
> If the situation unravels there is the possibility of establishing a declared or undeclared Salafist principality in eastern Syria (declassified DIA document Aug 12, 2012, File # 14-L-0552/DIA)
> 
> Si la situación se desenreda/aclara hay una posibilidad de que se estableca un principado de un estado salafista declarado o no declarado en siria del este. (or al este de Siria)
> 
> Gracias antemano


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## indoctus

Gracias chileno por tu ayuda.


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## SydLexia

"to unravel" may mean 'to remove knots/complications' but it is also the verb for what happens to a sweater if you pull on a thread and it starts to...... become 'unknotted' and 'less complicated' to the extent that you have no sweater left. (deshacerse/descoserse)

You need to look seriously at the context as the words here are ambiguous.

I suspect it means 'if everything goes to shit'

syd


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## indoctus

SydLexia said:


> "to unravel" may mean 'to remove knots/complications' but it is also the verb for what happens to a sweater if you pull on a thread and it starts to...... become 'unknotted' and 'less complicated' to the extent that you have no sweater left. (deshacerse/descoserse)
> 
> You need to look seriously at the context as the words here are ambiguous.
> 
> I suspect it means 'if everything goes to shit'
> 
> syd



Yes that is a good clarification. 

My sources say "aclarar" means to make clearer, and that seems off the mark. The example, in context, I thought meant things spinning out of control.


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## SydLexia

Yes, if everything 'becomes unwoven', then "everything falls apart".

syd


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## chileno

According to Merriam-Webster:

* Full Definition of unravel *

*transitive verb*
_1_ _a_ :  to disengage or separate the threads of :  disentangle _b_ :  to cause to come apart by or as if by separating the threads of


_2_ :  to resolve the intricacy, complexity, or obscurity of :  clear up _<unravel a mystery>_

_Would it depend if the establishing of the Salafist principality is good or bad? Because to me it wouln't matter. To me to clear in this case is the same as to unwoven..which not necessarily means that it goes to shit._


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## SydLexia

*Examples of unravel in a sentence*

Scientists are still _unraveling_ the secrets of DNA.


Their plans _unraveled_ when she lost her job.


His frequent absences from home caused his marriage to _unravel_.


I feel like my life is _unraveling_.
source Definition of UNRAVEL

(and note which ones are intransitive......)




chileno said:


> ........
> 
> _Would it depend if the establishing of the Salafist principality is good or bad? Because to me it wouldn't matter. To me to clear in this case is the same as to unwoven..which not necessarily means that it goes to shit._



What seems to have happened is that a recently declassified (and atrociously-written) document has been used by some to 'prove' that Obama supports.... people he doesn't support.

So your question is to the point. If you want to prove that the President is a Muslim extremist, then "unravel" means "aclarar" and the text says that the establishment of such a state is a goal to be desired. If you're not trying to prove that, then it seems obvious that the person who wrote the report meant to say "...there is a risk that a... state will be established..."

On the balance of probabilities, I'd say that the chances are that here "unravel" means "fall apart" and that the establishment of fanatical fundamentalist states is not US presidential policy.


syd


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## chileno

As you say...


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## Aguas Claras

chileno said:


> According to Merriam-Webster:
> 
> * Full Definition of unravel *
> 
> *transitive verb*
> _1_ _a_ :  to disengage or separate the threads of :  disentangle _b_ :  to cause to come apart by or as if by separating the threads of
> 
> 
> _2_ :  to resolve the intricacy, complexity, or obscurity of :  clear up _<unravel a mystery>_
> 
> _Would it depend if the establishing of the Salafist principality is good or bad? Because to me it wouln't matter. To me to clear in this case is the same as to unwoven..which not necessarily means that it goes to shit._


Agree. I don't see why "unravel" would mean "goes to shit".  Depending on the context, I can see "aclarar", "desenredar", "descubrir", ... as possible translations, the most generic being, I think, "aclarar".


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## Aguas Claras

Perdón, se me olvidó decir que, en la frase de la pregunta inicial ("If the situation unravels there is the possibility ..."), creo que "se desenreda" va bien. Podría también ser "se aclara".


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## Raving Syntactivist

In the original sentence the verb is most certainly being used to mean "fall apart" and not "clear up." This is obvious because it's intransitive in the sentence in question and not transitive. The verb unravel means to clear up only when it's used transitively (They unravelled a mystery, for example). But when it's used intransitively it can't mean to clear up, only to fall apart. In other words, if someone unravels SOMETHING (transitive verb), then that person has cleared something up or figured something out. If, however, something unravels (no direct object = intransitive verb), then that means a situation has fallen apart, or "gone to shit," to use the nomenclature above. 
So, to me there's no ambiguity here. It really only has one possible meaning, regardless of context, and that is "to come apart", meaning "aclarar" cannot be the translation. Maybe "venirse abajo" might work? Es lo único que se me ocurre en el momento, pero seguro hay otras (mejores) posibilidades.


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## indoctus

The transitive/intransitive use does seem to control the meaning (Raving Syntactivist) and that view harmonizes with examples from SydLexia 

So if you unravel something you are making it clearer, but if something is in the process of unraveling it is "going to shit".

If I think of examples that contradict that I'll bring them in.

Por lo tanto en español quizás "empeorar" con atención a que "empeorar" no cambia su sentido en la forma transitiva.

¡Gracias muchisimo a todos aquí!


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## chileno

That's why you need to clear up if the establishing of a declared or undeclared Salafist principality is positive or negative.


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## iribela

SydLexia said:


> I suspect it means 'if everything goes to shit'
> 
> syd



This was my first reaction too: _If things fall apart..._
And in the context, it does refer to a deterioration of the situation.


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## indoctus

chileno said:


> That's why you need to clear up if the establishing of a declared or undeclared Salafist principality is positive or negative.



Para mí, la frase "....there is a possibility of establishing...." implica que el estado salafisto es un tipo de Plan B cuando Plan A (the situation) no funcionó bien. 

Así que, como creo que dices, si Plan B is positivo, Plan A tiene que ser negativo.


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## chileno

A ver:

If the situation unravels there is the possibility of establishing a declared or undeclared Salafist principality in eastern Syria (declassified DIA document Aug 12, 2012, File # 14-L-0552/DIA)

Si la situación se desenreda/aclara hay una posibilidad de que se estableca un principado de un estado salafista declarado o no declarado en siria del este. (or al este de Siria)

Is this good or bad for Syria?

Is this good or bad for the U.S.?

Context will dictate..... There isn't enough context provided with what you posted... and I don't know what's going on or went on with Syria etc....


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## indoctus

8. The Effects on Iraq:

A. Syrian regime border forces retreated from the border and the opposition forces (Syrian Free Army) took over the posts and raised their flag. The Iraqi border guard forces are facing a border with Syria that is not guarded by official elements which presents a dangerous and serious threat.

B. The opposition forces will try to use the Iraqi territory as a safe haven for its forces taking advantage of the sympathy of the Iraqi border population, meanwhile trying to recruit fighters and train them on the Iraqi side, in addition to harboring refugees (Syria).

C. If the situation unravels there is the possibility of establishing a declared or undeclared Salafist principality in eastern Syria (Hasaka and Der Zor), and this is exactly what the supporting powers to the opposition want, in order to isolate the Syrian regime, which is considered the strategic depth of the Shia expansion (Iraq and Iran).


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## iribela

D. The deterioration of the situation has dire consequences on the Iraqui situation...

Thus, unravels ("things fall apart, things go to shit")


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## indoctus

chileno, gracias por la traducción y corregir mis errores. 
iribela, yes the document does continue and there is a good preamble to the salient points in #8. Lots of sections were redacted however.


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## chileno

You are welcome.


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## Dragoman88

Como señala Synctactivist, en este caso se trata de un verbo intransitivo, de modo que no existe ambigüedad. La traducción sería: "Si la situación empeora/va a peor/ se complica, etc.". Todas las demás interpretaciones son erróneas por una cuestión gramatical.


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## MaeDay

Exactly, there is no ambiguity with “unravels” here as it’s intransitive, which always means something is going wrong. I guess it’s always good to have even more context than originally given in an OP, but it wasn’t needed here at all.


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## indoctus

Gracias Muchísimas a todos por tus contribuciones.

En resumen:

a) "unravel" en la forma intransitiva siempre es algo malo, afuera de control (e.g. I feel that my life is unraveling)
b) palabras que expresan esta idea son "empeorar(se)/va a peor/complicarse/desenvolverse/desmoronarse

Si hay problemas con esto, por favor corrígeme.


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## Ciprianus

If the situation unravels (_se desmorona_) there is the possibility...


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## Isabel Sewell

"If the situation unravels there is the possibility of establishing a declared or undeclared Salafist principality in eastern Syria (declassified DIA document Aug 12, 2012, File # 14-L-0552/DIA)"


Si, la situación se DESENVUELVE (desliar)
***Situation unravels: becomes undone, brakes up, becomes a strait long linear problem, BEGINS to fail, slows down any process.
***the possibility of Salafist (something that at least some people do not want)

Aquí no se puede decir: la situación se ACLARA, dado que para aclarar (unravel) algo, se investiga, se soluciona, se explica (lo complicado o desconcertante/enegmatico del dilema)


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## indoctus

Gracias Isabel y Ciprianus: Añadí "desenvolverse" y "desmoronarse" de arriba.


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## Ciprianus

_Desenvolver_ significa _untangle (desenredar)_, es un an antónimo de lo que en este contexto significa _unravel_.


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## Isabel Sewell

Ciprianus said:


> _Desenvolver_ significa _untangle (desenredar)_, es un an antónimo de lo que en este contexto significa _unravel_.




DESENVOLVER (unravel es sinónimo (ver el #4 en el enlace)
desenvolver
Dar más amplitud o desarrollo a una cosa (sea para bien o para mal)


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## Rodal

Yo usaría el verbo desatar o desenredar para unravel.
_The situation unravels _(la situación se desata, se desenreda).


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## Isabel Sewell

Rodal said:


> Yo usaría el verbo desatar o desenredar para unravel.
> _The situation unravels _(la situación se desata, se desenreda).



Si, desatar es tal vez la mejor opción


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## Rodal

Desenvolver significa "unwrap" y no tiene nada que ver con unravel/desenredar, desatar.


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## Isabel Sewell

Rodal said:


> Desenvolver significa "unwrap" y no tiene nada que ver con unravel/desenredar, desatar.




Bueno, entonces tendrás que corregir WordReference y muchos otros tesauros en la red.
Desenvolver : unravel
desenvolver - Diccionario Inglés-Español WordReference.com


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## Rodal

Ciprianus said:


> _Desenvolver_ significa _untangle (desenredar)_, es un an antónimo de lo que en este contexto significa _unravel_.



Disculpa ciprianus pero desenvolver no significa untangle. Desenredar Sí.


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## Isabel Sewell

Rodal said:


> Disculpa ciprianus pero desenvolver no significa untangle. Desenredar Sí.



Te refiero de nuevo a WordReference y a muchos otros tesauros en la red
desenvolver - Diccionario Inglés-Español WordReference.com
Desenvolver : Untangle : Unravel (sobre todo una situación)


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## Rodal

Isabel Sewell said:


> Bueno, entonces tendrás que corregir WordReference y muchos otros tesauros en la red.
> Desenvolver : unravel
> desenvolver - Diccionario Inglés-Español WordReference.com



Desenvolver una lana no es lo mismo que desenvolver un caso.
No es casualidad que WR lo ponga al final de la lista bajo la categoría de Other Translations.
El ejemplo que pone WR es el siguiente:
"Es mejor que desenvuelvas ese lío de lanas antes de que llegue la abuela".


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## Isabel Sewell

Rodal said:


> Desenvolver una lana no es lo mismo que desenvolver un caso.
> No es casualidad que WR lo ponga al final de la lista bajo la categoría de Other Translations.
> El ejemplo que pone WR es el siguiente:
> "Es mejor que desenvuelvas ese lío de lanas antes de que llegue la abuela".



Como dices "desenvolver un caso"

Por eso puede decir: 
Si la situación se desenvuelve hay posibilidad de establecer una principalidad, declarada o no declarada, al este de Siria.


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## Rodal

Isabel Sewell said:


> Como dices "desenvolver un caso"
> 
> Por eso puede decir:
> Si la situación se desenvuelve hay posibilidad de establecer una principalidad, declarada o no declarada, al este de Siria.



Quise decir desenredar un caso.

Un caso policial lo esclareces, lo desenredas, no lo desenvuelves. Si le dices al inspector, "hemos desenvuelto el caso" te quedará mirando raro y te dirá "¿acaso lo tenías envuelto en una cobija?


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## Isabel Sewell

Rodal said:


> Quise decir desenredar un caso.
> 
> Un caso policial lo esclareces, lo desenredas, no lo desenvuelves. Si le dices al inspector, "hemos desenvuelto el caso" te quedará mirando raro y te dirá "¿acaso lo tenías envuelto en una cobija?



Yo he presentado una forma de traducir la frase origina del usuario y la traducción es adecuada. Queda de parte del usuario escoger entre lo sugerido por los foreros.


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## Rodal

Isabel Sewell said:


> Yo he presentado una forma de traducir la frase origina del usuario y la traducción es adecuada. Queda de parte del usuario escoger entre lo sugerido por los foreros.



No estoy de acuerdo Isabel, desenvolver no aplica para este contexto:

desenvolver
_verbo transitivo_

1.
Quitar la envoltura a una cosa.
"desenvolver un regalo; ni siquiera miró los paquetes que ella desenvolvía sobre el mantel"
2.
Hacer crecer, aumentar o progresar una cosa.
"no paró hasta desenvolver todas las posibilidades originariamente contenidas en su idea; se da una concepción cultural básica, dentro de la cual el hombre está desenvolviendo su existencia"
synonyms: desarrollar


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## Ciprianus

*untangle *desenredar, desenmarañar WR
*
desenvolver*
3. tr. Descifrar, descubrir o aclarar algo que estaba oscuro o* enredado*. Desenvolver una cuenta, un negocio.
 DLE
*desenredar*
3. prnl. *Desenvolverse*, salir de una dificultad.
DLE


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## MaeDay

Those who said “desatarse” and “desmoronarse” hit the nail on the head. I don’t think this is a verb that can be translated too literally i.e “desenredarse” and “desenvolverse” don’t work. Even if they did, there are a host of verbs you should choose first.


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## ChemaSaltasebes

_Si la situación *se deteriora*... _
[_*se desbarata*_]
[_*se tuerce*_]

Completamente de acuerdo con Syd en #8 y previos y con iribela (#15) entre muchos otros.

El original dice:
_The Future Assumptions of the Crisis:
The regime [alusión al régimen sirio de Assad] will survive and have control over Syrian territory._
*El régimen sobrevivirá y mantendrá el control sobre el territorio sirio.*
_(...)
If the situation unravels there is the possibility of establishing a declared or undeclared Salafist principality in eastern Syria (...) and this is exactly what the supporting powers to the opposition want in order to isolate the Syrian regime_
*Si la situación se deteriora cabe la posibilidad de que se establezca un califato salafista, declarado o no, en el este de Siria *(...)


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