# Arabic: qalam



## Faylasoof

I read that the Arabic word  قلم  (qalam = pen) comes from the Greek word: καλαμος    Is there any evidence for this?   In my Ancient Greek dictionary (for Attic and Homeric Greek only – not a big one) I couldn’t find it.


----------



## Frank06

Hi,

I have no idea about a possible connection, I only looked up the Greek word you mentioned:
κάλᾱμος: Its original meaning seems to be 'reed', but it can also refer to certain objects made of reeds (fishing cane, sticks, etc.) and a writing pen.

I hope somebody else can give you more information on a possible relation between the Greek and Arabic word.

Groetjes,

Frank


----------



## Mahaodeh

A pen made of reed in Arabic is called يَرَاع = yaraa3 (the type that's dipped into ink when writing). The word can be used poetically to mean pen or writing tool but it's not very common.

The word قلم = qalam comes from the root q-l-m: to cut, snip, prune (a plant), clip, truncate. A piece of branch/twig that was snipped or clipped off is called a qalam; later it was used for a pen made of wood and then for all types of pens. I'm unaware of any other origin, but I'm also unaware if it has any roots in earlier Semetic languages.

There does seem to be a closeness in meaning though.


----------



## Faylasoof

Thanks Frank,

Actually I have come across this meaning of κάλᾱμος and does indeed mean ‘reed’ (or objects made from it which could include a reed pen). 

Most of my Greek friends are as unsure of the Ancient Greek word for pen as I am. From their Classical Greek classes at school they cannot recall this particular usage of κάλᾱμος. 

So at the moment we cannot say anything of a possible relation between the Greek and Arabic word for a (reed) pen. 

The other possibility is that this is a relic from an earlier Semitic (or even the non-Semitic Sumerian) word for a writing instrument which was past around in the languages of the Near East and the Mediterranean of the ancient world. 

I am now trying to find out what words are there for a pen / a writing instrument in ancient languages like, Akkadian, Babylonian, Ancient Egyptian, Biblical Hebrew, Phoenician, Punic, Syro-Aramaic. 

According to some sources, roughly 30% of Ancient Greek vocabulary has a Semitic component so words from these languages did end up going the other way.

So I hope someone here can help me with at least some of these languages.


Met vriendelijke groet.


----------



## Frank06

HGi,



Faylasoof said:


> Most of my Greek friends are as unsure of the Ancient Greek word for pen as I am. From their Classical Greek classes at school they cannot recall this particular usage of κάλᾱμος.


The word was marked in my Greek dictionary as K(oine) and N(ew) T(estament). See also here, here, here, here, here for online sources. I clearly stated that "I have _no idea about a possible connection_, I only looked up the Greek word you mentioned". 
I think that it is beyond any reasonable doubt that κάλᾱμος also meant 'pen' (writing tool) in certain periods, whatever the etymology of the Greek word or wherever it came from.




> So at the moment we cannot say anything of a possible relation between the Greek and Arabic word for a (reed) pen.


Agreed, and I hope nothing in my post suggested the contrary. I am the first one to agree that mere similarity is a bad starting point for coming up with etymologies. 

Groetjes,

Frank


----------



## Faylasoof

Hi Frank,   Both your replies are absolutely clear and from the second I can see that it is listed under Koine.     Like you, I too am very wary of apparent similarities to link words etymologically.  Thanks for all your help.      Groetjes


----------



## Faylasoof

Hello Mahaodeh,   I have heard of  يَرَاع. It is one of the Arabic words for reed, the other being قَصَب (qaSab). Also the root q-l-m you mention, meaning ‘to cut, snip, prune etc.’ is exactly how we also use it in Urdu. I can see the connection between the root verb and the noun.  In fact, I always thought until quite recently that the noun  قلم  was related to this verb. Only when I read the work of a reputable academic that I started to wonder whether his suggestion of a possible link with the similar sounding Greek word has something in it.  Hence my query.  I’m still trying to find out if the root exists in other Semitic languages.


----------



## ireney

Well, according to my dictionary by Babiniotis, the Greek word comes from an IE root.
See here for a very interesting on-line explanation.


----------



## Josh_

Hi all,

 Concerning the existence of this root in other Semitic languages I took a  quick look in my biblical Hebrew dictionary (the "Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew  and English Lexicon") and also in my Syriac dictionary (the "A compendious Syriac  Dictionary") for what would be the equivalent roots to the Arabic root ق-ل-م (q-l-m) -- Hebrew ק-ל-ם and Syriac ܩ-ܠ-ܡ -- and did not find the root in either one.


----------



## apmoy70

Frank06 said:


> HGi,
> The word was marked in my Greek dictionary as K(oine) and N(ew) T(estament)....*I think that it is beyond any reasonable doubt that κάλᾱμος also meant 'pen' (writing tool) in certain periods*, whatever the etymology of the Greek word or wherever it came from.
> 
> Agreed, and I hope nothing in my post suggested the contrary. I am the first one to agree that mere similarity is a bad starting point for coming up with etymologies.
> 
> Groetjes,
> 
> Frank


Since the 6th-8th century the word κάλᾱμος has been synonymous with the writing tool, while reed was the βακτηρία. Please check the hymn (if you can read Koine Greek) the Orthodox chant during the Holy Week:
"Ἤδη βάπτεται *κάλαμος* ἀποφάσεως.."
"Already *the pen* of sentence is being dipped in ink..."


----------



## Faylasoof

Ireney and Josh,   Thank you both for your valuable contributons!  Ireney, the website you provide is extremely useful. (I am now searching other words!) So there is an IE root to this word and the additional info is great, adding to the pleasures of etymologies... and Josh your observation that niether Hebrew nor Syriac have the Arabic root q-l-m equivalent is just what I wanted to know.  They are the older cousins of Arabic and I'm now wondering where and how this root ended up here.   BTW, do Hebrew and / Syriac have anything under the k-l-m root which is in any way related to this topic?


----------



## Cilquiestsuens

Mahaodeh said:


> The word قلم = qalam comes from the root q-l-m: to cut, snip, prune (a plant), clip, truncate. A piece of branch/twig that was snipped or clipped off is called a qalam; later it was used for a pen made of wood and then for all types of pens. I'm unaware of any other origin, but I'm also unaware if it has any roots in earlier Semetic languages.
> 
> There does seem to be a closeness in meaning though.


 

I think Hebrew has a root g-l-m with almost the same meaning as described by Mahaodeh...

Look here


----------



## Josh_

Faylasoof said:


> Ireney and Josh,   Thank you both for your valuable contributons!  Ireney, the website you provide is extremely useful. (I am now searching other words!) So there is an IE root to this word and the additional info is great, adding to the pleasures of etymologies... and Josh your observation that niether Hebrew nor Syriac have the Arabic root q-l-m equivalent is just what I wanted to know.  They are the older cousins of Arabic and I'm now wondering where and how this root ended up here.   BTW, do Hebrew and / Syriac have anything under the k-l-m root which is in any way related to this topic?


I checked that root, כ-ל-ם, and in biblical Hebrew it means "_to be humiliated_."  This may be related to the Arabic verb كَلَمَ (kalama: to wound) from the Arabic cognate root ك-ل-م. In Syriac, looking for ܟ-ܠ-ܡ, I did not find anything.



Cilquiestsuens said:


> I think Hebrew has a root g-l-m with almost the same meaning as described by Mahaodeh...
> 
> Look here


I checked that root, ג-ל-ם, in my biblical Hebrew dictionary, and all I found was _"wrap up, fold, fold together_."


----------



## berndf

This suggests a double etymology. You might ask the author of the etymological info where he go this from.


----------



## Lugubert

berndf said:


> ... double etymology ...


I like the idea that some clever bilingual guy in Egypt made qalam up as a pun.

For Urdu comments, Platts is slightly cautious. Transcribed


			
				Platts dictionary said:
			
		

> qalam (fr. qalm, 'paring,' inf. n. of qlm; cf. Gr. kálamos; Lat. calamus, and culmus; S. kalama)


S. is of course Sanskrit.


----------



## J.F. de TROYES

berndf said:


> This suggests a double etymology. You might ask the author of the etymological info where he go this from.


 
The Arabic-French dictionary by Daniel Reig seems to be of the same mind as two separate entry-words are given :
1- qalam , pl.'aqlām = calamus,pen, pencil
2- qalam = line, scratch...

So both words look to be related to different roots or schemes (*صيغة* )   The two Greek and Arabic words would have the same meaning, but I agree that it's not a convincing evidence for them to be etymologically linked.


----------



## Abu Rashid

Just came across the Amharic word for paint ቀለም (qäläm) and thought it might be relevant to this topic. It's also the word for school & colour, which might suggest it's somehow related to writing.


----------



## Rajki

Actually, Amharic is full of Arabic loanwords. See the Arabic Etymological Dictionary.


----------



## Abu Rashid

Rajki said:
			
		

> Actually, Amharic is full of Arabic loanwords. See the Arabic Etymological Dictionary.



You mean this website? which seems to be linked to your name?

http://www.freeweb.hu/etymological/

Do you have a more authentic source? Where did you get the Greek origin from? Wikipedia? like everyone else who seems to be claiming it?

I've seen absolutely no evidence for a Greek borrowing other than the obvious sentiment of: _"A similar sounding word exists in Greek, and Greek is the ultimate source of all unknown words since it's the cradle of Western civilisation"_

I find it highly unlikely that the Arabic word for pen would be borrowed into a sister language with the varied meanings of colour, paint & school. And I am yet to see any convincing evidence of a borrowing from Arabic, other than the fact you've posted it on your own website. Any source for why you posted it on your website?


----------



## Rajki

Sorry, but Greek _kalamos_ 'reed, pen' seems so obvious to me as the source of _qalam_... Who needs any proof?

It is as if you demanded evidence that Antarctica has anything in common with Greek _arktos_ bear. What is obvious is obvious.

Amharic _qalam_ also means ink. The pen > ink connection is trivial. From ink, paint / color and education are semantically deducible.

By the way, Arabic _qalam_ also means, apart from pen, writing and office.


----------



## origumi

Hebrew has both kulmus (pen) and kalmar (box for pens, as of school children) which are Greek loanwords (maybe via Aramaic) of Mishnaic times (1st-2nd centuries AD or even earlier).

Yet some think that kalamos reached Greek in much earlier time as a Semitic borrowing of root m-l-k in Canaanite (to cut the edge, the way pen is prepared from reed) which is equivalent to Arabic k-l-m. See comments in this Hebrew article: http://www.irgun-hamorim.org.il/content\115440_rozen.pdf.


----------



## Abu Rashid

Rajki said:
			
		

> Who needs any proof?



Precisely.



			
				Rajki said:
			
		

> It is as if you demanded evidence that Antarctica has anything in common with Greek arktos bear. What is obvious is obvious.



It's a little different. The problem seems to be that you have an automatic assumption it must be a Greek -> Arabic borrowing, when nothing at all suggests this must be the case. Most of the borrowing in the region was Semitic -> Greek, not the other way 'round. I've heard many wild claims on these forums and other places over the years about how every single Arabic word that shares similarities with a Greek/Latin word *must* be borrowed from them, yet when digging deeper it usually turns out not to be the case.

I'm not sure of the sound of the Greek k, but the Arabic q & k are not as easily confused as English q and k for instance are.



			
				Rajki said:
			
		

> Amharic qalam also means ink. The pen > ink connection is trivial. From ink, paint / color and education are semantically deducible.



I still don't find the need to make an automatic assumption that either of these are borrowings, Greek -> Arabic or Arabic -> Amharic. As you mentioned above, you're not concerned with proof. 



			
				Rajki said:
			
		

> By the way, Arabic qalam also means, apart from pen, writing and office.



It does? It can be used figuratively to refer to a bureau/office of something, but I don't think the word would ever be used to refer to a maktab (office).

Anyway as far as I'm concerned an Arabic tri-literal root exists which has a suitable meaning that the noun is obviously derived from. In the absence of any evidence otherwise, it seems sensible to consider it an Arabic word. The Greek could either be a borrowing from one of the Semitic languages (from a no longer extant root) or just a coincidence.

The idea that some suggest that because no other Semitic languages have the same root, therefore it's not originally Arabic/Semitic is quite flawed, since there's no Semitic language with a comparable inventory of roots to Arabic. There may have been in the past, but most Semitic languages, apart from Arabic, have lost much of their vocabulary.


----------



## Abu Rashid

origumi said:
			
		

> Yet some think that kalamos reached Greek in much earlier time as a Semitic borrowing of root m-l-k in Canaanite (to cut the edge, the way pen is prepared from reed) which is equivalent to Arabic k-l-m. See comments in this Hebrew article: http://www.irgun-hamorim.org.il/cont...5440_rozen.pdf.



Are you sure about that? There is the Arabic root q-l-m which means to prune, cut (like the way a pen is made from a reed) but not k-l-m as far as I know. The root k-l-m means speech. There are nouns which mean wound or slash, but no root that I know of which means to cut.


----------



## Montesacro

Abu Rashid said:


> I'm not sure of the sound of the Greek k, but the Arabic q & k are not as easily confused as English q and k for instance are.



What do you mean? Are you talking about sounds?
The English letters q and k represent the same sound... I guess you can easily confuse two things that are identical...


----------



## Abu Rashid

Montesacro said:
			
		

> What do you mean? Are you talking about sounds?



What do you mean what do I mean? Of course when speaking about borrowings between languages we'd be speaking about sounds too, since words (lexemes) are made up of sounds (phonemes) are they not? If the Greek k (kappa) does not have a sound similar to the Arabic q (qof) then I find it even less likely to be a borrowing, especially when Arabic has a k (kaf).



			
				Montesacro said:
			
		

> The English letters q and k represent the same sound... I guess you can easily confuse two things that are identical...



Exactly. English speakers might make an instant connection between qalam and κάλᾱμος that is not so certain for speakers of Arabic.


----------



## Montesacro

Abu Rashid said:


> What do you mean what do I mean? Of course when speaking about borrowings between languages we'd be speaking about sounds too, since words (lexemes) are made up of sounds (phonemes) are they not?



Of course. That's way I found it weird that you compared the Arabic _sounds_ q & k with the English _letters_ q & k.


Abu Rashid said:


> I'm not sure of the sound of the Greek k, but the Arabic q & k are not as easily confused as English q and k for instance are.



Apples and oranges...



Abu Rashid said:


> Exactly. English speakers might make an instant connection between qalam and κάλᾱμος that is not so certain for speakers of Arabic.



It is clear what you mean. And you are basically right.


----------



## ancalimon

Where was the oldest pen found in? Maybe it could help?


----------



## berndf

Abu Rashid said:


> Are you sure about that? There is the Arabic root q-l-m which means to prune, cut (like the way a pen is made from a reed) but not k-l-m as far as I know. The root k-l-m means speech. There are nouns which mean wound or slash, but no root that I know of which means to cut.


Origumi is suggesting a two-way borrowing: Phoenician->Greek and back Greek->Aramaic->Arabic. This is quite complicated but not entirely implausible. It explains the metamorphosis from /k/>/q/ as Greek and Latin /k/ is often imported as /q/ into Aramaic for reasons I don't fully understand; maybe because Kaf could be /k/ or /x/ while Qof was unambiguous.


----------



## ireney

So are we dismissing the PIE etymology for the Greek word (see my other post in this thread, number 8 or so I think)? 
Obviously I am not suggesting  that the Arabic word comes from the Greek one. I don't speak Arabic and have no books of Arabic etymology around either


----------



## berndf

ireney said:


> So are we dismissing the PIE etymology for the Greek word (see my other post in this thread, number 8 or so I think)?


I obviously can't speak for the others but I am not dismissing it. I only wanted to explain Origumi's hypothesis further.


----------



## origumi

Abu Rashid said:


> Are you sure about that? There is the Arabic root q-l-m which means to prune, cut (like the way a pen is made from a reed) but not k-l-m as far as I know. The root k-l-m means speech. There are nouns which mean wound or slash, but no root that I know of which means to cut.


Regarding the bidirectional borrowing - as berndf elaborated. This is a theory I read about and directed to the article, although not sure how robust it is. Regarding k-l-m vs. q-l-m you are correct, I used the moderm Hebrew transcription rules which are inapropriate for etymological discussion. It's q-l-m (Arabic) and m-l-q (Canaanite).


----------



## Frank06

Abu Rashid said:


> It's a little different. The problem seems to be that you have an automatic assumption it must be a Greek -> Arabic borrowing, when nothing at all suggests this must be the case. Most of the borrowing in the region was Semitic -> Greek, not the other way 'round. I've heard many wild claims on these forums and other places over the years about how every single Arabic word that shares similarities with a Greek/Latin word *must* be borrowed from them, yet when digging deeper it usually turns out not to be the case.


I don't that think this attitude is encouraged on this forum. But I fully agree that claims need to be backed up with arguments.
As for Rajki's question "Who needs proof?", I think we all shout "We do!". 
After all, this is EHL, not "My Big Fat Greek Wedding"* :-D.



ancalimon said:


> Where was the oldest pen found in? Maybe it could help?


I strongly doubt if the location of "the oldest pen" would help. Besides, we have no clue about "the oldest pen" (or whatever object), only about "the oldest pen actually *found back*". And that's a huge difference.

Frank

*I am referring to the character of the father in that movie, who has a "Greek explanation" for every possible word from every possible language.


----------



## Abu Rashid

Berndf said:
			
		

> I obviously can't speak for the others but I am not dismissing it.



I second that, I am not dismissing it either, merely questioning the automatic assumption that it must be Greek.



			
				Berndf said:
			
		

> maybe because Kaf could be /k/ or /x/ while Qof was unambiguous.



Aramaic also uses /k/ & /x/ for kaf as Hebrew does? Either way I still consider it quite bizarre it would come back to the Semitic languages with the original letter it was supposedly borrowed with (if we accept also the Semitic origin in q-l-m or m-l-q), if it had changed.


----------



## clevermizo

Abu Rashid said:


> I'm not sure of the sound of the Greek k, but the Arabic q & k are not as easily confused as English q and k for instance are.



I agree with you that the evidence for the relationship between qalam and kalamos are not necessarily sufficient to explain it, however I did want to point out that it seems in Arabic there is a tendency to use the emphatic series of sounds like ق، ط، ص to represent foreign _k, s, t_ rather than ك، ت ،س. For example, consider ديمقراطية، أفلطون، أرسطو ، إيطاليا، قرطاج which I suppose could have easily been rendered ديمكراتية, أفلتون and أرستو, كرتاج، إيتاليا etc. (قرطاج of course has a Semitic origin anyway, קַרְתְּ חַדַשְתְּ, but the even original name didn't have the cognate of ط in it).  (It reminds me of the tendency of Hindi/Urdu to use the retroflex series of stops to render foreign words, even where they have the plain stops that are perhaps more similar. It's as if a certain set of sounds is considered "marked," and then gets employed for foreign words which I suppose are also "marked.")

In other words, I'm saying that if _kalamos_ were being rendered into Arabic I would actually expect _k_ to become ق. If it was coming into Greek from a Semitic language, I would of course expect them to replace ق with _kappa_, so it seems plausible both ways, just on the basis of this one sound at least.


----------



## berndf

clevermizo said:


> (قرطاج of course has a Semitic origin, קַרְתְּ חַדַשְתְּ, *but it did not have the cognate of the sound ط*).


What makes you say that? כ and ק are clearly distinct in Punic.


----------



## clevermizo

berndf said:


> What makes you say that? כ and ק are clearly distinct in Punic.



I mean, the specific word in Punic has the cognate of ت where the Arabic has ط - so if anything, we would expect the Arabic word to be rendered قرتاج or something else, but nevertheless it is still rendered قرطاج with ط even though ט is not in the original word. My point was that the emphatic series is often used to render foreign words, even in this case, when the origin is Semitic (and I guess the word قرطاج came into Arabic through a non-Semitic filter, in which case we might even think it could be rendered كرتاج). I didn't mean to say anything about the nature of phonemes in Punic. 

**I edited my post above. Hopefully, what I meant is a little clearer in context.




ireney said:


> So are we dismissing the PIE etymology for the  Greek word (see my other post in this thread, number 8 or so I think)?
> Obviously I am not suggesting  that the Arabic word comes from the Greek  one. I don't speak Arabic and have no books of Arabic etymology around  either



We might have a case of convergent evolution, where the true origin of  the word itself may be obscure, but was reinforced in both cases by  pre-existing roots.


----------



## origumi

clevermizo said:


> قرطاج of course has a Semitic origin anyway, קַרְתְּ חַדַשְתְּ, but the even original name didn't have the cognate of ط in it
> ...
> I mean, the specific word in Punic has the cognate of ت where the Arabic has ط


Remember that both final ת of קַרְתְּ חַדַשְתְּ are not part of a root but a Semitic feminine suffix. Does Arabic have special treatment when borrowing this form?


----------



## clevermizo

origumi said:


> Remember that both final ת of קַרְתְּ חַדַשְתְּ are not part of a root but a Semitic feminine suffix. Does Arabic have special treatment when borrowing this form?



I don't know. (I don't know how this word came into Arabic (I think actually that I remember a thread about it), but I bet it came through a non-Semitic rendition, especially considering how similar it looks to the English "Carthage". Maybe the Latin name or something? I don't mean to go off-topic.) I suppose it would just be phonetic as قرت حدشت - it wouldn't be قرة حدشة with the tāʔ marbūṭa.


Anyway, again I simply want to stress the use of the emphatic series to render foreign words seems to occur, so again you could conceivably have _kalam(os) _to قلم or قلم to _kalam(os) _with the k/ق not being a particularly strange choice either way.


----------



## Abu Rashid

origumi said:
			
		

> Remember that both final ת of קַרְתְּ חַדַשְתְּ are not part of a root but a Semitic feminine suffix. Does Arabic have special treatment when borrowing this form?



Arabic only ever uses the taa marbouTah I think for proper Arabic words, not for loan words, even if they're Semitic in origin. Arabic is unique amongst the Semitic languages in having a special form of taa/tav to represent the feminine suffix.

If the Semitic origin of the name was known, then I guess it could've been rendered as القرية الحديثة but it just doesn't seem to have been known in that time, since it had drifted too far away from it's original roots.


----------



## ancalimon

What about words similar to kalem like "kelam:word" "kelime:word" "alim:scholar"

We use them in Turkish and they sound Arabic to me.


----------



## Abu Rashid

ancalimon said:
			
		

> What about words similar to kalem like "kelam:word" "kelime:word" "alim:scholar"
> 
> We use them in Turkish and they sound Arabic to me.



They are not related at all to qalam. Turkish just mistransliterated the Arabic qof into Latin 'k' when they abandoned the Arabic alphabet. So you have kalem (قلم) which looks a lot like kelam (كلام) in Turkish, when in fact the two are quite different.

The word alim (عالم) is again different, not sure how that crept in here?


----------



## berndf

clevermizo said:


> I mean, the specific word in Punic has the cognate of ت where the Arabic has ط - so if anything, we would expect the Arabic word to be rendered قرتاج or something else, but nevertheless it is still rendered قرطاج with ط even though ט is not in the original word. My point was that the emphatic series is often used to render foreign words, even in this case, when the origin is Semitic (and I guess the word قرطاج came into Arabic through a non-Semitic filter, in which case we might even think it could be rendered كرتاج). I didn't mean to say anything about the nature of phonemes in Punic.
> 
> **I edited my post above. Hopefully, what I meant is a little clearer in context.


Sorry, I was reading too fast and didn't realize you didn't talk about emphatic/non-emphatic "k" about about emphatic/non-emphatic "t". It is all clear now.


----------



## berndf

Abu Rashid said:


> Aramaic also uses /k/ & /x/ for kaf as Hebrew does?


To be honest, I don't know where it comes from but I always thought Hebrew got this (the g/gh, d/dh, t/th and k/kh allophones) from Aramaic. After all this is not native in Canaanite and biblical Hebrew after all we know also didn't have it. It emerged in Mishnaic Hebrew when most probably Jews used Aramaic as their every day language (though we don't know for sure).


----------



## Abu Rashid

berndf said:
			
		

> To be honest, I don't know where it comes from but I always thought Hebrew got this (the g/gh, d/dh, t/th and k/kh allophones) from Aramaic



Aren't there more as well like b/v, w/v, p/f. I always assumed it was probably something to do with Persian influence, since the Persians seem to have a lot of trouble distinguishing some of these letters too.


----------



## berndf

Abu Rashid said:


> Aren't there more as well like b/v, w/v, p/f. I always assumed it was probably something to do with Persian influence, since the Persians seem to have a lot of trouble distinguishing some of these letters too.


Sorry, my list was not complete. Of course, b/v and p/f belong there too; but not w/v: those aren't allophones but a sound shift, w doesn't exist in modern Hebrew any more. This shift happened much later in the diaspora.

It is quite possible this whole thing with fricative allophones of non-emphatic plosives began in Aramaic as a result of Persian influence. But I don't now.


----------



## clevermizo

berndf said:


> It is quite possible this whole thing with fricative allophones of non-emphatic plosives began in Aramaic as a result of Persian influence. But I don't now.



This is off-topic, but the lenition series could have been an independent development right? I mean it has occurred naturally in other languages like Spanish, Gaelic, etc. without having to say there was another influence.


----------



## artion

origumi said:


> Hebrew has both kulmus (pen) and kalmar (box for pens, as of school children) which are Greek loanwords (maybe via Aramaic) of Mishnaic times (1st-2nd centuries AD or even earlier).
> 
> Yet some think that kalamos reached Greek in much earlier time as a Semitic borrowing of root m-l-k in Canaanite (to cut the edge, the way pen is prepared from reed) which is equivalent to Arabic k-l-m. See comments in this Hebrew article: http://www.irgun-hamorim.org.il/content\115440_rozen.pdf.



The word is the Gr. kalamos (reed) http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ka/lamos&la=greek&prior=a(#lexicon

But I entered this thread just to remind you that some of the "Canaanites" and other people of middle east were people of mycenean civilization, from Crete or other islands, and therefore speaking a greek dialect. http://www.bib-arch.org/e-features/canaanites-and-philistines.asp


----------



## MRossi

Faylasoof said:


> I read that the Arabic word  قلم  (qalam = pen)  comes from the Greek word: καλαμος    Is there any evidence for this?    In my Ancient Greek dictionary (for Attic and Homeric Greek only – not a  big one) I couldn’t find it.



Yes, it could be possible,καλαμος    can mean also pen.
Another example

Plutarch, Demosthenes,21.

(source http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Plut.+Dem.+29&fromdoc=Perseus:text:2008.01.0111)

καὶ λαβὼν βιβλίον ὡς γράφειν μέλλων προσήνεγκε τῷ στόματι τὸν *κάλαμον*, καὶ δακών, ὥσπερ ἐν τῷ διανοεῖσθαι καὶ γράφειν εἰώθει, χρόνον τινὰ κατέσχεν, εἶτα συγκαλυψάμενος ἀπέκλινε τὴν κεφαλήν

Plutarch, Demosthenes,21.

(source http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:2008.01.0039:chapter=29&highlight=pen)

With these words, he retired into the temple, and taking a scroll, as if about to write, he put his *pen  *to his mouth and bit it, as he was wont to do when thinking what he  should write, and kept it there some time, then covered and bent his  head.

Other observations on phonetics and on semantics have been made, i ll add something about the historical context.Fundamentally, in that area,from Alexander the Great to Byzantine Empire (through the Roman Empire), the "English" ( but in some case the greek was more than a foreign language) of that period was the Greek.This period ,grossly,coincides with the beginning of arab language.So it is possible ,but also probable, that the greek influenced somehow the arab.


----------



## ancalimon

@Artion: I want to add something to this (but please if my post is deleted, tell me the reason why I'm being unscientific, after all I use words that were recorded. If you ask me about how these words could be connected, I simply don't know because any reputable history book that I read tells me that Turks first entered Anatolia in 1071.)

from Compendium of the languages of the Turks written by Mahmut of Kashgar in 1072
http://www.4shared.com/account/file/144294378/3ffd6a3b/divanu.html  (scanned and shared by Toronto University) (it's the original copy so it's in Arabic letters)

qamışlıg: place with reeds, bamboos.
qamış: reed, bamboo, straw
qamgak: the long plant that looks like cloth used to patch open outer parts of a building.
qalima: arbour, bower, trellis, alcove, pergola, summer house  (probably built with reeds, bamboos)
There is also a place in Istanbul named "Kalamış"

Also it's no surprise that Qam (shaman) are also called "OTACI" by Uighurs. Otacı means someone who creates medicine from plants. OT means any kind of plant that's connected directly to the ground "including a reed,weed or tobacco"

qamaş: to be dazzled, the feeling you get on your tongue when you taste something sour
qamçı: penis (of a horse, bull, camel)


----------



## artion

I am not responsible for deletions or explanations on deletions. the words you list start with "qa" but I think this is not enough to conclude that are related to kalamos. But you cannot exclude it. Talking about similarities between turkish and greek, you have to consider historical facts. Turkish speaking people came to a wide contact with greek speaker since 13th c. As "turkishness" advanced to the former byzantine empire, assimilated greek speakers who tended to preserve for some generations their original language and culture (see crypto-christians). Toponyms are very often pre-turkish.
The modern genetic research shows that what actually happened was an advance of a central asian language over local populations. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_origins_of_the_Turkish_people

As far as arabic, the greek presence in the middle east is older than hellenistic. The mycenean origin of the biblical Philistines is well accepted, I think. Greeks were borrowing words from eastern languages, on the other hand, but this cannot easily be attested as there are not many texts of phoenician, early hebrew, early turkish etc.

*<deleted off-topic remark>*


----------



## berndf

artion said:


> But I entered this thread just to remind you that some of the "Canaanites" and other people of middle east were people of mycenean civilization, from Crete or other islands, and therefore speaking a greek dialect. http://www.bib-arch.org/e-features/canaanites-and-philistines.asp


Philistines, not Canaanites. What scholars agree on is that the Philistines originally spoke a non-Canaanite and non-Semitic language. That they originally spoke a Greek dialect is a plausible hypothesis but far away from being an established fact as your wording suggest.


----------



## origumi

artion said:


> But I entered this thread just to remind you that some of the "Canaanites" and other people of middle east were people of mycenean civilization, from Crete or other islands, and therefore speaking a greek dialect. http://www.bib-arch.org/e-features/canaanites-and-philistines.asp


Canaanites (at least those known as such in liguistic discussions) are a Semitic ethnos. It is true though that the land of Canaan (today's Israel + Lebanon + Western Jordanian Kingdom) was populated for certain times by non-Semitic people - Hamitics related to Egypt, Philistines, "The People of the Sea", Hittites, Hurrians, possibly Corsicans and Sardinians, and other. Some of these names may overlap each other, some may have arrived from Crete, some may have spoken archaic Greek.

Yet, the assumption the Canaanite m-l-q (not m-l-k as I wrote before) may be the ancestor on Greek kalamos is based on:
* m-l-q is native Canaanite for sure
* Similarity to Arabic q-l-m may indicate that the Arabic root is also native Semitic
* The Greek word is unlikely to be derived directly from Arabic due to weak ties in old times
* The Greek word may be derived from Phenician, thus Canaanite, like several other words during the 8th century BC and later.

A question may arise how Canaanite m-l-q becomes Greek kalamos, with two problems:
* q -> k (different sound). Easy to explain by lack of Semitic-like q sound in Greek.
* m-l-k -> kalam (different letters order). There are other cases of ABC -> CBA shifts between Semitic and European languages.

This is merely a theory I saw, which is far of having convincing arguments.


----------



## HUMBERT0

Interesting, maybe off-topic, in Spanish we use the word Calamar for squid.

From DRAE. 
*calamar.*
(Del lat. _calamarĭus_, de _*calămus*_, caña ”reed” o pluma de escribir “writing pen”).
*1. *m. Molusco cefalópodo de cuerpo alargado, con una concha interna en forma de pluma de ave y diez tentáculos provistos de ventosas, dos de ellos más largos que el resto. Vive formando bancos que son objeto de una activa pesca.

I don't know here Latin got it from.
Best Regards.


----------



## artion

origumi said:


> Yet, the assumption the Canaanite m-l-q (not m-l-k as I wrote before) may be the ancestor on Greek kalamos is based on:
> * m-l-q is native Canaanite for sure
> * Similarity to Arabic q-l-m may indicate ...



Do we have Canaanite or arabic texts mentioning this m-l-q or qlm and how old are they? 
The oldest Gr. attestation of kalamos is in Herodotus (5th c. BC).


----------



## origumi

artion said:


> Do we have Canaanite or arabic texts mentioning this m-l-q or qlm and how old are they?


Hebrew mlq appears in the Bible, Leviticus 1:15. This is usually dated to 10th-8th century BC with earlier oral tradition. Arabic sources are likely to be of much later time. Not sure that this dating provides a dependable clue.

A good indication of no Semitic influence would be finding kalamos in Homeros. Did you try to search there?


----------



## artion

origumi said:


> Hebrew mlq appears in the Bible, Leviticus 1:15.


 
Thanks. I found it in the online interlinear Hebrew Bible http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/lev1.pdf

It seems to have the sense of "cut-off" (the head of the animal). I don't see the relation with the reed or the ink, writting etc. 

This word is not in Homer.


----------



## MRossi

origumi said:


> Hebrew mlq appears in the Bible, Leviticus 1:15. This is usually dated to 10th-8th century BC with earlier oral tradition. Arabic sources are likely to be of much later time. Not sure that this dating provides a dependable clue.
> 
> A good indication of no Semitic influence would be finding kalamos in Homeros. Did you try to search there?



Homeros,The Iliad,Book 19,between verse 220 and 225.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0133:book=19:card=215

αἶψά τε φυλόπιδος πέλεται κόρος ἀνθρώποισιν,
ἧς τε πλείστην μὲν *καλάμην* χθονὶ χαλκὸς ἔχευεν,
ἄμητος δ' ὀλίγιστος, ἐπὴν κλίνῃσι τάλαντα
Ζεύς

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0134:book=19:card=215

[220] wherefore let thine heart endure to hearken to my words. Quickly have men surfeit of battle, wherein the bronze streweth most straw upon the ground, albeit the harvest is scantiest, whenso Zeus inclineth his balance, he that is for men the dispenser of battle. [225] 

*καλάμη*,the dictionary says that comes from *καλαμος    *or that is a variation of word *καλαμος    *.


----------



## artion

Thanks MRossi. I was searching for "κάλαμος" and I forgot the variants.


----------

