# つかみどころなく



## Starfrown

...はっきり思い出そうとあせればあせるほど、つかみどころなくぼやけてゆく記憶の頼りなさのうちに...   (Kawabata’s「雪国」)
 
One translator renders this:
 
"The harder he tried to form a clear picture of her, the more elusive and hazy she became in his inconstant memory."
 
He's clearly taking some liberties.  I, however, am trying to understand the Japanese as closely as possible.  Here's my attempt at a more literal translation:
 
"...amidst the uncertainty of [his] memory, which, without a place to cling to, became vaguer the more he struggled to recall [her] clearly..."
 
Does つかみどころなく give the reason for his memory's becoming vaguer?  If not, should the sentence be translated as:
 
"...amidst the uncertainty of [his] memory, which became vaguer and more elusive the more he struggled to recall [her] clearly..."
 
??


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## Flaminius

Hmmm, it's a good question.  At first glance I understood the adjective directly modifying 記憶.  It assumes the adverbial form only because a conjugated word immediately follows.

A more analytic style, which is favoured in non-literary works today, would have it in the adnominal: つかみどころない


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## Starfrown

Flaminius said:


> Hmmm, it's a good question. At first glance I understood the adjective directly modifying 記憶. It assumes the adverbial form only because a conjugated word immediately follows.
> 
> A more analytic style, which is favoured in non-literary works today, would have it in the adnominal: つかみどころない


So would it be fair to say that you lean more towards the first of the two translations I provided? I was personally inclined to favor that one.

Still, I must say that it seems difficult to entirely rule out the possibility that it is functioning as an adverb modifying _boyakete yuku_.  Then again, I'm not a native speaker and therefore somewhat lacking in sprachgefuhl.


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## toccillo

Starfrown said:


> it is functioning as an adverb modifying _boyakete yuku_



I think this is the case.
(Adverb[-ku form of Adjective] + Verb) + Noun

e.g.
明るく かがやく 太陽
楽しく すごした 夏休み


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## Starfrown

toccillo said:


> I think this is the case.
> (Adverb[-ku form of Adjective] + Verb) + Noun
> 
> e.g.
> 明るく かがやく 太陽
> 楽しく すごした 夏休み


I wonder now whether I phrased the problem well in post #3 above.

I think it would probably help me more to know which translation I provided in post #1 seems right to you.

Thanks for the assistance


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## Flaminius

Starfrown said:


> Still, I must say that it seems difficult to entirely rule out the possibility that it is functioning as an adverb modifying _boyakete yuku_.  Then again, I'm not a native speaker and therefore somewhat lacking in sprachgefuhl.


I know I am devoid of imagination to feel literary works; so much for the myth of native speaker's _sprachgefühl_.  I ruled out the adverbial interpretation simply because I cannot understand what [[つかみどころなく]ぼやけてゆく] or [[つかみどころなく]ぼやける] would mean.


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## toccillo

Starfrown said:


> I think it would probably help me more to know which translation I provided in post #1 seems right to you.



I think the latter is better.

Leaving syntactics aside now, 'つかみどころなく' means "elusive; it eludes, you can't help it", and it responds to the 'はっきり思い出そうとあせればあせるほど' part. (semantically)
So, 'つかみどころなく' should be inside the 'the more ... ' phrase in the following pattern.

'The harder he tried ... , the more ... '

... Did I make any sense?


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## Starfrown

toccillo said:


> I think the latter is better.
> 
> Leaving syntactics aside now, 'つかみどころなく' means "elusive; it eludes, you can't help it", and it responds to the 'はっきり思い出そうとあせればあせるほど' part. (semantically)
> So, 'つかみどころなく' should be inside the 'the more ... ' phrase in the following pattern.
> 
> 'The harder he tried ... , the more ... '
> 
> ... Did I make any sense?


Yes, but in that case, I don't understand why it wouldn't be:

...つかみどころなく*なって*ぼやけてゆく記憶...

or something of that nature.


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## rukiak

I agree with toccillo's choice.
And also agree with Flaminius's comment of
"At first glance I understood the adjective directly modifying 記憶".



Starfrown said:


> Yes, but in that case, I don't understand why it wouldn't be:
> 
> ...つかみどころなく*なって*ぼやけてゆく記憶...
> 
> or something of that nature.


As toccillo says, 'つかみどころなく' means "elusive; it eludes, you can't help it".
Though, I think that it(the picture of her) is in that state 'from the first' and 'all along' ,whether he struggle or not. 
In other word, 'つかみどころなく' means "elusive; it eludes, you can't help it" in the innate way.
Adjenctive 'つかみどころがない'  has such kind of nuance. So I can't imagine any examples that become 'つかみどころがなく' なる.


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## rukiak

though, I mean I just prefere the later choice, not completely agree with you.
I think, according to the whole context of the original, that part of your excerpt means
"...,while the memory is so elusive and uncertain that becomes vaguer and more elusive the more he struggles to recall [her] clearly, ..."
In the above sentence, to be sure, 'while' means 'though' .

I think うちに is a key, and it doesn't simply means "amidst" . I could be wrong. のうちに is quite archaic.
But I believe the nuance of the excerpt is as I mentioned above.


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## Hiro Sasaki

Starfrown said:


> ...はっきり思い出そうとあせればあせるほど、つかみどころなくぼやけてゆく記憶の頼りなさのうちに... (Kawabata’s「雪国」)
> 
> One translator renders this:
> 
> "The harder he tried to form a clear picture of her, the more elusive and hazy she became in his inconstant memory."
> 
> He's clearly taking some liberties. I, however, am trying to understand the Japanese as closely as possible. Here's my attempt at a more literal translation:
> 
> "...amidst the uncertainty of [his] memory, which, without a place to cling to, became vaguer the more he struggled to recall [her] clearly..."
> 
> Does つかみどころなく give the reason for his memory's becoming vaguer? If not, should the sentence be translated as:
> 
> "...amidst the uncertainty of [his] memory, which became vaguer and more elusive the more he struggled to recall [her] clearly..."
> 
> ??


 
Does つかみどころなく give the reason for his memory's becoming vaguer?
 
"his memory's becoming vaguer" is expressed  with ぼやけて行く　＝　It is getting vaguer,
 
つかみどころなく without anything to grasp to have a clear image.
 
Hiro Sasaki


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## Starfrown

rukiak said:


> though, I mean I just prefere the later choice, not completely agree with you.
> I think, according to the whole context of the original, that part of your excerpt means
> "...,while the memory is so elusive and uncertain that becomes vaguer and more elusive the more he struggles to recall [her] clearly, ..."
> In the above sentence, to be sure, 'while' means 'though' .
> 
> I think うちに is a key, and it doesn't simply means "amidst" . I could be wrong. のうちに is quite archaic.
> But I believe the nuance of the excerpt is as I mentioned above.


I was not aware that のうちに could have an adversative reading like the English "while." Are you saying that that particular function is archaic.



rukiak said:


> Though, I think that it(the picture of her) is in that state 'from the first' and 'all along' ,whether he struggle or not.
> In other word, 'つかみどころなく' means "elusive; it eludes, you can't help it" in the innate way.
> Adjenctive 'つかみどころがない' has such kind of nuance. So I can't imagine any examples that become 'つかみどころがなく' なる.


Nicely put. That's exactly what I wanted to learn.
--
Thanks to Sasaki-san, as well.


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## Hiro Sasaki

I don't think that うちに　is a archaiic word,although I need a little more 
complete sentence.


http://www.randomhouse-kodansha.co.jp/last_lecture/index.php
I've found " ぼくの命があるうちに”　While I am alive 

Hiro Sasaki


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## rukiak

Good morning.


Hiro Sasaki said:


> I don't think that うちに　is a archaiic word,
> Hiro Sasaki


Sorry, I meant in the post of mine that the particular mathod of *の*うちに used in the concerpt, would be archaic. ( I should've stressed the character の). 
Off course, there are lot's of modern usage of うち, as you indicates.Thank you.



Starfrown said:


> I was not aware that のうちに could have an adversative reading like the English "while." Are you saying that that particular function is archaic.



Technically, I've just felt that nuance, and I've felt that nuance in other Japanese literary works. So I don't say there is some clear function defined by some dictionary.　That means. I maight be wrong.
I can't imagine concrete exsample rignt now, but I know there is the style of  "< noun: describing some state > + のうちに , < clause: describing some state,action etc. contrary to the state >" , in that case, the meaning is virtually opposite. 
In the last post on mine, I used 'while' and translated it as if it is a adverb clause, but the original is not a clause but an adverbal phrase. So, grammatically, うちに and 'while' may have no relationship.
Anyway, that is my personal opinion. ( You seems kind of a professional, so even though I have confidence in my Japanese, I'm not sure my opinion is more reasonable than your expertise. )


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## Starfrown

rukiak said:


> Technically, I've just felt that nuance, and I've felt that nuance in other Japanese literary works. So I don't say there is some clear function defined by some dictionary.　That means. I maight be wrong.
> I can't imagine concrete exsample rignt now, but I know there is the style of "< noun: describing some state > + のうちに , < clause: describing some state,action etc. contrary to the state >" , in that case, the meaning is virtually opposite.
> In the last post on mine, I used 'while' and translated it as if it is a adverb clause, but the original is not a clause but an adverbal phrase. So, grammatically, うちに and 'while' may have no relationship.
> Anyway, that is my personal opinion. ( You seems kind of a professional, so even though I have confidence in my Japanese, I'm not sure my opinion is more reasonable than your expertise. )


When it comes to Japanese, my "expertise" hardly qualifies as such. I always value the opinions and feelings of native speakers.


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