# billion / a thousand milllions



## gaer

_British_ *:* a thousand milllions

This is from Merriam-Webster. What I find particularly curious is that it is not on the Cambridge site. And I've never seen it used.

Is that actually used in the UK instead of billion? I was sure the answer was "no", but I've learned not to speak too quickly.

Gaer

_________________________________________________________________
Moderator note.
The topic of "what is a billion?" raises a lot of discussion among those who do not routinely use the term.
This is a very long thread and contains a great deal of opinion.
Below I have quoted some of the posts that contain straightforward and robust statements about the UK use of _*billion*_.
You are welcome to read the rest of the thread and to add to the discussion if you wish.



djweaverbeaver said:


> Very interesting thread,
> 
> I would just like to point out that both systems were invented in Europe, just like the confusing month/day/year now used in the U.S. versus the day/month/year system used by the Brits and most other people when writing calendrical dates. Now, back to the counting problem. Interestingly enough, both methodologies have a history in France where both systems were used at alternate periods in its history. Well, here's the logic behind the American system:
> 
> 1,000=thousand
> 1,000,000=million (basically a thousand thousand)
> 1,000,*000,000*=*bi*llion (2 sets of zeros after a thousand)
> 1,000,*000,000,000*=*tri*llion (3 sets of zeros after a thousand)
> 1,000,*000,000,000,000*=*quadr*illion (4 sets " " " " thousand)
> 1,000,*000,000,000,000,000*=*quint*illion (5 sets " " " " thousand)
> .
> .
> .
> You get the logic by now.  Some other interesting numbers:
> 10^100 (ten to the hundredth power/to the power of 100)= googol (essentially one followed by a hundred zeros)
> 10^10^100= 10googol =googolplex (one followed by a googol zeros).
> 
> Hope this helps you understand our system.





panjandrum said:


> Some further sentences from the Wiki article that TT has linked above < _Here's about the simplest clear explanation I could find._>  are very useful.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For most of the 19th and 20th centuries, the United Kingdom uniformly used the long scale while the United States of America used the short scale, so that usage of the two systems was often referred to as "British" and "American" respectively.
> In 1974 the government of the UK abandoned the long scale, so that the UK now exclusively applies the short scale interpretation in mass media and official usage.
> ...
> The two systems can be a subject of controversy and can arouse emotion. Usage changes can evoke resentment in adherents to the older system, while national differences of any kind can acquire patriotic overtones.
Click to expand...




Loob said:


> One thousand million. That's been the "official" meaning of billion for a number of years.
> 
> See this 1974 answer by Harold Wilson to a written Parliamentary Question:
> Source





Sabapathy said:


> Here as under, is given, what has been agreed upon internationally the mathamatical units
> and  are being used  by  banks  all  over  the  world  for  currency  counting.
> 
> 10  to the power of 3  =  1000  (  thousand )
> 10  to the power of 6  =   1000,000 (  thousand thousand = million )
> 10  to the power of 9  =   1000,000,000 ( thousand million  =  billion )
> 10  to the power of 12 =  1000,000,000,000 ( thousand billion  =  trillion )
> 
> like  wise  it  goes  on  to  quadrillion  etc.,  always  increasing  the  power  number  by  3.
> 
> I hope this explanation , even though mathamatically expressed , gives a definite understanding into the english term " million " ; " billion " etc. In my opinion, this is well with in the scope of this forum , that the above explanation is given.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Sabapathy
> ----------


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## Markus

Yes, the dictionary is correct. A billion in Britain is defined as a thousand thousand million (a trillion everywhere else). Weird, eh?

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Milliard.html
but also:
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Billion.html

The second link seems to indicate that the American number system is taking over there. I guess let's wait for the Brits to see what the common usage is today.


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## gaer

Markus said:
			
		

> Yes, the dictionary is correct. A billion in Britain is defined as a thousand thousand million (a trillion everywhere else). Weird, eh?
> 
> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Milliard.html
> but also:
> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Billion.html
> 
> The second link seems to indicate that the American number system is taking over there. I guess let's wait for the Brits to see what the common usage is today.


Markus, 10 to the 9th power is 1 plus 9 zeros. That's a billion here. So you are saying that in the UK, billion is 12 zeros? And a millard, in the UK, is the same as a billion here? Hmm…

Confusing…

Oops. I didn't read the second link. But "milliard", meaning 1000 million, is marked as obsolete elsehwere. My confusing is that in German it is the standard word for "billion" (die Milliarde)…

Gaer


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## Markus

Yep, that's exactly right. At least that's how it used to be, I don't know how much they've adopted the American system. That must be really confusing for them I imagine, if they're in transition. Any time someone says a billion... oh, do you mean American billion or a billion?


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## gaer

Markus said:
			
		

> Yep, that's exactly right. At least that's how it used to be, I don't know how much they've adopted the American system. That must be really confusing for them I imagine, if they're in transition. Any time someone says a billion... oh, do you mean American billion or a billion?


We crossed. I was editing, you were posting. It would not be confusing for me if one or the other is now standard, because I am familiar with both words. But I had not seen milliard in English before, just in other languages. Maybe someone from the UK will pop in and tell us what is in use NOW. 

My suspicion was aroused when when the Cambridge site, which speciailizes in UK English, said that "it did not recognize the word". That usually means it's obsolete. So we have a little mystery here. 

Gaer


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## Benjy

noone, and i mean noone knows what a milliard is (i base this on the fact that i am studying maths at degree level and i have never ever seem the term mentioned any where) i only know the word becacuse its the same thing in french  and the american system of counting has taken over i imagine that few brits even know that we had a different counting system


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## gaer

Benjy said:
			
		

> noone, and i mean noone knows what a milliard is (i base this on the fact that i am studying maths at degree level and i have never ever seem the term mentioned any where) i only know the word becacuse its the same thing in french  and the american system of counting has taken over i imagine that few brits even know that we had a different counting system


Benjy, that's what I thought, but I promised the people in the German forum I would check it out.

As I said, if a word is shown not to be part of the Cambridge online database, it's a pretty good indication that the word is not in use.

I keep warning people to beware of dictionary sites. The information about the EXISTENCE of a word often gives no info about current usage. 

Gaer


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## rayb

Benjy said:
			
		

> noone, and i mean noone knows what a milliard is (i base this on the fact that i am studying maths at degree level and i have never ever seem the term mentioned any where) i only know the word becacuse its the same thing in french  and the american system of counting has taken over i imagine that few brits even know that we had a different counting system


 
In Spanish, like in French, "millardo" = 1000 millions and "billón" = 1000000 millions.
This is a mess in accounting and commercial contracts. Probably the only solution is to use also "milliard" in English.


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## Markus

gaer said:
			
		

> I keep warning people to beware of dictionary sites. The information about the EXISTENCE of a word often gives no info about current usage.


 
This is a good warning, though it's not why I thought the term was still in use. I've actually been told this 'fact' by several different people over the years. I think that our cultures love to believe crazy things about other cultures, and having a different definition for a billion is about as crazy as it gets.  Anyway, thanks for the clarification Benjy.

Markus


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## gaer

rayb said:
			
		

> In Spanish, like in French, "millardo" = 1000 millions and "billón" = 1000000 millions.
> This is a mess in accounting and commercial contracts. Probably the only solution is to use also "milliard" in English.


A solution has to be possible. English is not going to change. 

But it certainly is confusing!

Gaer


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## rayb

gaer said:
			
		

> A solution has to be possible. English is not going to change.
> 
> But it certainly is confusing!
> 
> Gaer


 
For sure, business has to and will find a solution. Effectively, in a contrc ir has to be clear if 1 billion means 1 milliard or 1000 milliards. International standards are for that. By the way, we all speak about kilo, mega, tera and so on.


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## Fezman

Now we know why there are so many billionaires in america, its 1000 times easier...!!!!
p.s.- its the same in ireland 1,000,000,000,000 = 1 billion!!


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## timpeac

Markus said:
			
		

> Yes, the dictionary is correct. A billion in Britain is defined as a thousand thousand million (a trillion everywhere else). Weird, eh?
> 
> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Milliard.html
> but also:
> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Billion.html
> 
> The second link seems to indicate that the American number system is taking over there. I guess let's wait for the Brits to see what the common usage is today.


 
This is true, the American system is taking over here, but it is sufficiently in flux for no one to be sure. Obviously if you are really using numbers this big it is EXTREMELY important to be sure which you are talking about. I work in the European headquarters of an American company and when we have occasion to talk about numbers this large we never use the word "billion" alone everyone says "Billion as in a thousand million" or "a million million". If I had a communication come from the US using the word billion I would assume it meant a thousand million (and I think it always would), but if it was vital I knew for sure I would check. I don't think I'd have a job for long if I got it wrong


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## gaer

rayb said:
			
		

> By the way, we all speak about kilo, mega, tera and so on.


Because there is such a resistance to metrics in the US, we tend to have more problems with these terms, I think.

Perhaps billion has already become common in the UK (and elsewhere) for the reason you mentioned—standardization. The problem is that it's different in other languages. I suppose if you want to be absolutely certain, the only way is to write out the number with the appropriate number of zeros. 

Gaer


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## gaer

timpeac said:
			
		

> This is true, the American system is taking over here, but it is sufficiently in flux for no one to be sure. Obviously if you are really using numbers this big it is EXTREMELY important to be sure which you are talking about. I work in the European headquarters of an American company and when we have occasion to talk about numbers this large we never use the word "billion" alone everyone says "Billion as in a thousand million" or "a million million". If I had a communication come from the US using the word billion I would assume it meant a thousand million (and I think it always would), but if it was vital I knew for sure I would check. I don't think I'd have a job for long if I got it wrong


I'd probably just say, "How many zeros are we talking about?" But I'd also be fired the first day.  

Gaer


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## stefi_na

in Bulgarian the word for 1000 millions also sounds like "milliard", but I've never heard it in English... "billion" in Bulgarian means 1 000 000 000 000 (I didn't know that until now ) and I also learned that 1(followed by a hundred zeroes) is called a googol... here's some interesting info I found:


> The name "Google" is a play on the word googol, which was coined by Milton Sirotta, nephew of U.S. mathematician Edward Kasner in 1938, to refer to the number represented by 1 followed by one hundred zeros. Google's use of the term reflects the company's mission to organize the immense amount of information available on the Web. As a further play on this, Google's headquarters are referred to as "the Googleplex" - a googolplex being 1 followed by a googol of zeros, and the HQ being a complex of buildings (and cf multiplex, cineplex, etc).


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## timebomb

A couple of years ago, a friend told me that although a million is the same everywhere, it isn't so with a billion.  I didn't believe him then when he said that a billion in Great Britain is a million million whereas everywhere else, it's a thousand million.  I made a bet with him and lost some money.    I wonder if it's still true today, that a billion in GB is a thousand times more than a billion elsewhere.


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## Sophie Elizabeth

Absolutely true!


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## foxfirebrand

Aren't gallons bigger too?  I seem to remember when I was back in highschool, if you bought a gallon of gas in Canada it was way more expensive, because "Imperial gallons" had 5 quarts in them instead of 4?

Whenever I'm south of the "upper tier" of the "lower 48" I can't get people to believe this.  Am I hallucinating again?  Gas fumes maybe?

Or might fifths of a gallon of a different sort altogether be at fault?


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## Diabolik

Hi everyvody.

I think I don't understand: 
if I write 1.000.000.000 what and English would read? and an American? thank you!

Dk.


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## Outsider

Read through this thread: 'How are numbers written?'


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## timebomb

Diabolik said:
			
		

> if I write 1.000.000.000 what and English would read? and an American? thank you!



I can't speak for the English but over here in Singapore, your number would be read as "one".  It isn't necessary though to put so many decimal points behind the first number.  One would be sufficient.  

What did you say?  You mean, they're commas?  Very well then, I can't speak for the English again but I think they will read it as "a thousand million"   

Just know that if you're a billionaire, there's no better place to be one than in Great Britain


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## PeterR

In Britain a billion used to be a million million.  However nowadays even the BBC routinely uses it to mean a thousand million, just like Americans do.  I do not know whether other media all follow the same example.  I'd also guess that a billion is not something the average person in the street talks about every day, certainly not with technical precision as to the exact size of this large number.


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## deslenguada

What does the "bn" stand for? Thanks a lot.


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## whatonearth

Billion (£1,600,000,000,000)


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## deslenguada

whatonearth said:


> Billion (£1,600,000,000,000)


 

thanks!


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## panjandrum

Caution!

whatonearth has given you the traditional British billion version.

In financial circles, the British have adopted the US billion, so £1.6bn means £1,600,000,000


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## whatonearth

Quite correct, panjandrum, my apologies


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## whatonearth

No, sorry for the confusion, £1.6 million would be £1,600,000. The old British billion was one with *twelve* noughts (i.e. 1,000,000,000,000) but in financial circles (influenced by the US) one billion has become one with *nine* noughts (i.e. 1,000,000,000) - hope that's cleared up!


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## deslenguada

whatonearth said:


> No, sorry for the confusion, £1.6 million would be £1,600,000. The old British billion was one with *twelve* noughts (i.e. 1,000,000,000,000) but in financial circles (influenced by the US) one billion has become one with *nine* noughts (i.e. 1,000,000,000) - hope that's cleared up!


 
I keep saying "How weird!" It can get pretty confusing then.
For me as a Spanish speaker this ---> 1,000,000,000 is "one thousand millions"
would you say it like that?

and this ---> 1,000,000,000,000) is "one billion" (a million millions)

So I believe Spanish matches British English in this case.

What is the reason for the Americans to so so? (if there is any...)

Many thanks again indeed!


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## Hutschi

Hi, I searched for this in other threads but did not find.

What is the meaning of "billion" in the present time?

In German language, it is a million million.

In the USA it was used differently as thousand million.

In British usage, it was following the million million standard, but not always.

How is the usage today, and is it marked somehow, what is meant?

Best regards
Bernd


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## laurahya

As far as I know, general usage in Britain and America remains the same as you quoted. As an English person, I would understand a billion to be one million million. However, when used to describe financial statistics, particularly at an international level, I believe British commentators almost always use American billions.


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## petereid

The origin of billion, trillion etc referred to the number of million "sets" 
Million has one set of "000,000"
Billion has two sets "000,000, 000 000"
Trillion has three sets "000,000, 000,000, 000,000" etc. 
For some reason the USA didn't quite understand, and called a thousand million a "Billion" even though the word milliard was already in use in Europe.


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## Outsider

Take a look at this page (scroll down).



petereid said:


> The origin of billion, trillion etc referred to the number of million "sets"
> Million has one set of "000,000"
> Billion has two sets "000,000, 000 000"
> Trillion has three sets "000,000, 000,000, 000,000" etc.
> For some reason the USA didn't quite understand, and called a thousand million a "Billion" even though the word milliard was already in use in Europe.


Cheeky! 
Actually, both ways of counting were invented by Europeans.


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## foxfirebrand

Outsider said:


> Actually, both ways of counting were invented by Europeans.


However, without even looking it up, I'd bet good money that Americans invented the Gazillion.  Which down South we call lebenty-lebenteen.
.
.


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## Dimcl

> Aren't gallons bigger too? I seem to remember when I was back in highschool, if you bought a gallon of gas in Canada it was way more expensive, because "Imperial gallons" had 5 quarts in them instead of 4?
> 
> Whenever I'm south of the "upper tier" of the "lower 48" I can't get people to believe this. Am I hallucinating again? Gas fumes maybe?
> 
> Or might fifths of a gallon of a different sort altogether be at fault?


 
Nope, you're not hallucinating, Fox... this is slightly off-topic but, yes, we in Canada followed the British "Imperial" measurement system which meant that our gallons were bigger than yours so you got 1/5th more gas in a gallon (hence, paid more).  However, as I'm sure you're aware, we've been on the metric system for decades now so that should no longer be a problem - except that manufacturers sneakily made the conversion from Imperial to U.S. at the same time so that when I buy paint now, a "gallon" is based on the U.S. measurement and I get 3.78 litres (U.S. gallon) instead of 4.5 litres (Imperial gallon) for relatively the same price I was paying for an Imperial gallon!  And they just didn't bother clarifying that part of the so-called "conversion".  Applies to everything from paint to motor oil.  Those darned businessmen will get you every time!


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## carrotcake

Hi Everyone, 

I am confused when we say 1 billion in number.

I use 1 billion when I talk about 1000,000,000,000 in number. 
I used to live in the UK, so my friends were using this way.

However, when I start working in the US company in my country,
my boss was using 1 billion when we were talking about 1,000,000,000.

This is quite confusing me, should I just understand there is completely 
different for American and British use "billion"? 
So what about other places? such as European people speaks English,
or Australian etc.
It makes me very confused when I talk with many different nationarities 
while I am working.

However, when I read British newspapers, I often notice they use 
the same way that US use. 
On the other hand, my English study book says that "billion" is used 
differently in the US and the UK. 
This is the reason I am very confused.


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## born in newyork

I can only speak for the U.S. A billion is 1,000,000,000 always and without exception.  I'd be very curioius to hear what it means in other countries.


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## Old Novice

A billion in the U.S. is one thousand million (one and nine zeros).  In the U.K. it is one million million (one and twelve zeros)


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## LeonTheOutsider

A billion is always 1,000,000,000 (1,000 million), no matter it's in US, UK, or any other part of the world.


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## carrotcake

Hello born in newyork,

Thanks for your reply.
Yes, my American boss was telling me "a billion" is 1,000,000,000. 
However, when I was talking with my British school mate some time ago,
when I said "the world population is 6billion(currently 6.5billion) now", and 
she was so surprised, and she corrected me to "6 thousand million".
However, when I read UK government papers and books written by 
British writers, I notice they use "a billion = 1,000,000,000." So I am 
very confusing about this.


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## LeonTheOutsider

Old Novice said:


> A billion in the U.S. is one thousand million (one and nine zeros). In the U.K. it is one million million (one and twelve zeros)


 
That's old-fashioned English in UK. 
Nowadays one million million (1,000,000,000,000) is called _a trillion _everywhere in the world including UK).


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## Old Novice

LeonTheOutsider said:


> That's old-fashioned English in UK.
> Nowadays one million million (1,000,000,000,000) is called _a trillion _everywhere in the world including UK).



Could be, although I believe it was standard during my lifetime, with "milliard" meaning a thousand million in the U.K.  (Of course, the "Old" in my name is deserved.  )  Maybe some of our British friends can weigh in in the morning.


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## MeiLing

.
milliard (UK, it is old as LeonTheOutsider says) = trillion (everywhere now)


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## LeonTheOutsider

Old Novice said:


> Could be, although I believe it was standard during my lifetime, with "milliard" meaning a thousand million in the U.K. (Of course, the "Old" in my name is deserved. ) Maybe some of our British friends can weigh in in the morning.


 
Yes, you're right, Old Novice. UK is really *old* in using English as a langauge.  

Many dictionaries say so in their definitions of _*milliard*_, but usage is limited only in UK to represent a thousand million. I wonder if it will persist.


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## Brioche

The "American" billion has taken over in Australia.

When I was a lad, it was usual to talk about _X thousand million_, but to-day folk say _X billion_.

In French and German, an "American" billion is called a Milliard. I've seen the word in print in English, but I have never actually heard anyone use it.


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## carrotcake

Hi Everyone, 

Thank you so much for your replies.

Now I understand that "billion" used in Britain is changed to the American 
"billion" used.
That's why I found British newspapers are using the American "billion". 
One of my good business English book was mentioned about the "billion", and when I write a business letter or anything in British English, I have to use the british "billion", so I was not sure if people mentioned about "billion" at work. 

Thanks everyone, I will just use the American "billion" when I talk to anyone including British business pertners!


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## rodoke

This Wikipedia article might help.


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## LeonTheOutsider

MeiLing said:


> .
> milliard (UK, it is old as LeonTheOutsider says) = trillion (everywhere now)



Nope.

a milliard (UK) = a thousand million = a billion (US)
a billion (UK, old) = a million million = a thousand billion (US) = a trillion (US)


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## MeiLing

.
i c. Thank you, LeonTheOutsider, for the tip.


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## panjandrum

The February 2007 thread on this topic has been added to the previous merged threads.  Those recently arrived may find it helpful to read through the earlier, often less dogmatic, comments on this topic.
Panj


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## Hutschi

MeiLing said:


> .
> milliard (UK, it is old as LeonTheOutsider says) = trillion (everywhere now)


 
Hi, I'm in doubt, that this is true really _*everywhere*_.

In the German language, the general and scientific usage is following:

1 000 000 = 1 Million
1 000 000 000 = 1 Milliarde
1 000 000 000 000 = 1 Billion
1 000 000 000 000 000 = 1 Billiarde
1 000 000 000 000 000 000 = 1 Trillion

(The numbers are written only with spaces to format them.)

http://www.jimloy.com/math/billion.htm says: The scientific community seems to use the American system. 

I do not think, that the scientific community uses the American system generally. 
As you see, it depends on the country.


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## timpeac

In my experience, in general in the UK the scientific community have started using the American system, whereas outside of it many people persist with the the UK system. Because of all the confusion it is very common for people to say "one billion - an American (or British) billion".


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## MeiLing

.
Thanks a lot, Hutschi, for your clarification.


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## winklepicker

I must be living in a bubble. Everywhere that I see/hear/use a billion it has been 1,000 million, and has been for at least 20 years.

It just goes to show you can rely on nothing in English!


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## panjandrum

There is a useful series of contributions on this topic in Garuniad Unlimited.


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## timpeac

panjandrum said:


> There is a useful series of contributions on this topic in Garuniad Unlimited.


That article asks the question

*When did 100,000,000 become accepted as a billion over here?*
** 
Surely no one is suggesting that 100,000,000 is a billion anywhere in the world, are they?
 
Edit - oh sorry, reading down the page someone points out this error.


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## carrotcake

Thanks all for the great conversation about British billion.

I just talked with couple of people at work(in many nationalities), and I just ralised that some people use the British billion still, and when they talk about finance at work, they just use the American billion, and sometimes they use it by mentioning they are using "American" billion. 

I confused couple of times when I was using "billion" with British and American at work before. Since I read everyone's view on a "billion" I should just start saying a "British" billion and an "American" billion to avoid confusion. This confusion always happened when I talk about population of anything, I don't know why, but I never had problems when I use billion in Finance, so I believe British English accepted an American "billion" in Finance, but other parts, they still use a British "billion"?


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## nuri148

This is one of the biggest mysteries I've encountered while studying languages. We're not talking here about whether a woolen-knitted piece of clothing is a jumper or a sweater, we're talking numbers! there should be no place for confusion, and yet there is LOTS of it. 

In Spanish, 
1.000.000.000 --> mil millones (a thousand million - _millardo _I've never seen it used, must be a blatant arcaism) 
1.000.000.000.000 ---> un billón (a billion)
1.000.000.000.000.000 --> mil billones (a thousand billion)
1.000.000.000.000.000.000 ---> un trillón (a trillion)

The problem comes when translating this terms to or from English. I didn't know the expression "a thousand millions" existed in English too befor coming across this thread it irks me to no end when I hear spanish-speaking people saying for intance that "there are over a billion people in China" when the correct way in Spanish is "there are over a thousand million people in China". 

Any mathematicians in there?


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## panjandrum

nuri148 said:


> [...]
> Any mathematicians in there?


Mathematicians don't use such terms


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## Juan Carlos Garling

Diabolik said:


> Hi everyvody.
> 
> I think I don't understand:
> if I write 1.000.000.000 what and English would read? and an American? thank you!
> 
> Dk.


It is as simple as this :

_*One billion*_ in the American standard (increasingly adopted by most countries) is _*one thousand million*_ = 1.000.000.000

In the old English standard it is _*one million millions*_ = 1.000.000.000.000

So, to make it absolutely clear for everybody, perhaps it may be advisable to choose alternatives if you refer to _*one billion*_ (in the modern American standard) :
_one thousand millions_
_1.000 millions_
_1.000.000.000_


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## Porteño

As I understand it, a billion = one thousand million is standard international usage for financial purposes and also for population counts. However, I believe that the scientific community, e.g. astronomers, still consider a billion miles to be a million million miles. Am I right, or has the modern billion superceded in this area too?


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## Steubler

Diabolik said:


> Hi everyvody.
> 
> I think I don't understand:
> if I write 1.000.000.000 what and English would read? and an American? thank you!
> 
> Dk.



I´ll speak for the Americans:  In the USA, 1,000,000,000 is a billion.  Also, we always use commas to separate powers of a thousand and a dot to separate the unit from the tenth (as in 3,455,234.05).


----------



## Steubler

Porteño said:


> As I understand it, a billion = one thousand million is standard international usage for financial purposes and also for population counts. However, I believe that the scientific community, e.g. astronomers, still consider a billion miles to be a million million miles. Am I right, or has the modern billion superceded in this area too?



A million million in the US has always been a trillion ever since I remember and according to any scientific literature or otherwise that I have ever come across.  A billion is a thousand million in the US.


----------



## Porteño

Even in astronomy Steubler?


----------



## Steubler

Porteño said:


> Even in astronomy Steubler?



Well, now you've got me.  As an applied mathematician I read a lot of physics literature, but I don't deal much with astronomy, and I've never come across conflicting definitions of a billion.  It's not that I doubt you if you have heard this from some reliable source, but I frankly would be shocked to discover that!  Could you point to any source for me, because I'd be interested to know.


----------



## Porteño

Unfortunately I can not and do not have the time to go searching just now. However, I have always understood than when astronomers referred to billions, they meant true billions, i.e. million millions. If this is not the case then I have lived my life under an illusion! That's pretty shocking, I might say.


----------



## Hutschi

http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=68

Here they used billion as in German "Milliarde" in astronomy.
"If the universe is 15 billion years old, how can it be larger than 15 billion light years across?"


----------



## MarcB

See this post:
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=539862&highlight=milliard

in 1974 the British government announced that in its reports and statistics “billion” would henceforth mean 1,000,000,000.


----------



## Thomas Tompion

Hutschi said:


> http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=68
> 
> Here they used billion as in German "Milliarde" in astronomy.


 
And that's a thousand million, as used now very generally in the UK?


----------



## Outsider

Please see the discussion and links in the first pages of this thread.

P.S. Or this page (scroll down).


----------



## djweaverbeaver

Very interesting thread,

I would just like to point out that both systems were invented in Europe, just like the confusing month/day/year now used in the U.S. versus the day/month/year system used by the Brits and most other people when writing calendrical dates.  Now, back to the counting problem. Interestingly enough, both methodologies have a history in France where both systems were used at alternate periods in its history.  Well, here's the logic behind the American system:

1,000=thousand
1,000,000=million (basically a thousand thousand)
1,000,*000,000*=*bi*llion (2 sets of zeros after a thousand)
1,000,*000,000,000*=*tri*llion (3 sets of zeros after a thousand)
1,000,*000,000,000,000*=*quadr*illion (4 sets " " " " thousand)
1,000,*000,000,000,000,000*=*quint*illion (5 sets " " " " thousand)
.
.
.
You get the logic by now.  Some other interesting numbers:
10^100 (ten to the hundredth power/to the power of 100)= googol (essentially one followed by a hundred zeros)
 10^10^100= 10googol =googolplex (one followed by a googol zeros).

Hope this helps you understand our system.


----------



## Eigenfunction

If you look at the etymology of million and billion, you can make arguments for either system being the more logical. (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=million&searchmode=none)
2 + grand thousand = 2 times as many zeros = 10^12
or
2 + grand thousand = grand grand thousand = 10^9

As has already been said in various ways, in BE, 1 billion was originally 10^12, but in the case of money, we have to a certain extent adopted the American billion, because America is so fond of money.

However, this does actually leave the British billion somewhat unused, since in science we use Mega, Giga, Terra or 10^n, and there aren't many other places where people will come across such large quantities.


----------



## phynaert

Eigenfunction said:


> in science we use Mega, Giga, Terra or 10^n, and there aren't many other places where people will come across such large quantities.



Well, even in this area of "standard" prefixes, there is some room for ambiguity.

Almost everywhere, kilo = 10^3, mega = 10^6, giga = 10^9, tera = 10^12, peta = 10^15, exa = 10^18 and I don't remember what's next.

Almost everywhere ... BUT in Information Technologies, where you find binary-based variants : kilo = 2^10 = 1024, mega = 2^20 = 1.048.576, etc.

How simple.


----------



## Eigenfunction

Well I wouldn't call IT science… 

It is worth noting that the binary equivalents are the same order of magnitude as the SI prefixes; There is no factor of 1000 as with the American and British billions.


----------



## phynaert

Eigenfunction said:


> Well I wouldn't call IT science…



How about "computer science" ?


----------



## Alxmrphi

> A billion is always 1,000,000,000 (1,000 million), no matter it's in US, UK, or any other part of the world.



WRONG. 
I have been thinking about this for a few days now and I've asked around and virtually everyone has said to me "in the UK it's a million times a million", but the yanks say it's a thousand million" and that's why there's so many billionnaires over there etc.



> As I understand it, a billion = one thousand million is standard international usage for financial purposes and also for population counts. *However, I believe that the scientific community, e.g. astronomers, still consider a billion miles to be a million million miles*. Am I right, or has the modern billion superceded in this area too?



Is this true, because I was thinking about history, I was watching a program about Darwin and the guy kept saying billions and he was English, so I wasn't sure whether he was referring to a sciencey-understanding (American influenced) meaning or the traditional what we English consider to be a billion.

Anyone a scientist here?


----------



## panjandrum

Alex_Murphy said:


> WRONG.
> I have been thinking about this for a few days now and I've asked around and virtually everyone has said to me "in the UK it's a million times a million", but the yanks say it's a thousand million" and that's why there's so many billionnaires over there etc....


I haven't had that conversation for many, many years.

As marcb pointed out in post #69, the official UK line for decades has been that a billion is a thousand million.  That's how billion is used in financial circles, in population estimates (just how many people do Alex's friends think live in China ).

It may be taking a while to percolate through the population, but those who routinely use the term use it consistently with the rest of the world.

If it is really true that people in the UK think of a billion as a million million, they must think there are an awful lot of Scots.


> The allocations will see Scotland's 14 area health Boards and eight special NHS Boards receive around £7.8 billion in 2007-08.
> Health Minister Andy Kerr said:
> "Today's announcement highlights the unprecedented levels of investment we are making in improving Scotland's health. Next year we'll be spending over £2,000 per head on health, compared to less than £1,000 in 1999.


... that works out at about 3,900,000,000 Scots.
If they are all in Scotland at the same time, each Scot has about two square metres - near enough two square yards.
It's a bit cramped.
This is from a general press release, not a specialist scientific or financial report.

Yes of course there are died-in-the-wool old million-million billion fans who will never accept this new-fangled notion, but for all practical purposes, a UK billion is the same as a US billion.


----------



## JulianStuart

I think a scientist who wished to ensure correct communication would not use the word billion but rather use the powers of 10 e.g. 3.15 x 10^9 and be done with it.  They also can do, as Carl Sagan loved to do, use the word in a non-quantitative manner to simply express a "very large number" - in that context, I don't think a Brit saying "billions and billions" would be trying to outdo Sagan 



> Well, here's the logic behind the American system:
> 
> 1,000=thousand
> 1,000,000=million (basically a thousand thousand)
> 1,000,*000,000*=*bi*llion (2 sets of zeros after a thousand)
> ....
> ....
> 1,000,*000,000,000,000,000*=*quint*illion (5 sets " " " " thousand)


I still have trouble quickly figuring out how many zeroes are on the American numbers!  To figure out if the number is a quintillion would be determined by seeing how many zeroes there are, dividing by 3 and subtracting one - then seeing the appropriate prefix.  Logical, hmmm?  I liked the British logic more  - for every six zeroes there are, the prefix increases by one , 1 a million, a billion, a trillion etc or 1 followed by 6, 12, 18 etc. zeroes The prefix indicates how many times you'd have to say million in a row to get to the answer for a quadrillion, you'd say million 4 times in a row, for quintillion 5 times in a row (i.e a million million million million million).  Mmmm, logical


----------



## Alxmrphi

Every day I come on here I get more and more surprised, I don't really use billion as a word much (and neither do many others) so maybe that's why it just remains the same meaning, wheras lots of usage referring to 1,000 million might seem normal if used for a long time.



> *If* it is really true that people in the UK think


I just can't get over that 'if' ! It's like saying 'if the sky is blue' (in my very humble opinion)

But I am the type that really doesn't like to see the American way taking over (center/centre, organize/organise) etc so that might also explain why I've never wanted to accept it as how we should use it.

Oh well, I won't be needing to use the word much, (I hope I will do!) but I doubt it so for all practical purposes my question has been answered.



> In Germany, a "Billion" is clearly a "Million Million".


Really?? Ok then it doesn't seem so farfetched and bordering on obselete _somewhere_! (Anywhere else?)


----------



## JulianStuart

Hutschi said:


> It depends on what do you understand on "rest of the world".
> 
> In Germany, a "Billion" is clearly a "Million Million".



I once spoke German quite well but never used such big numbers

In German, if I recall correctly, 1 000 000 000 would be called a milliard?
How would 1 000 000 000 000 000 be described - a billiard?  So the -illiard would be 1000 x the corresponding -illion?


----------



## panjandrum

> *If* it is really true that people in the UK think
> 
> 
> 
> I just can't get over that 'if' ! It's like saying 'if the sky is blue' (in my very humble opinion)
Click to expand...


I make the point that the people who vociferously defend the old British million million billion do not actively think about the issue at all.  They respond based on a combination of memory and emotion.  They are not billion-users.

They are surrounded by information that uses the thousand-million billion, and either they understand it correctly and choose to ignore that understanding for the purpose of this kind of discussion, or they don't understand it at all.  I am sure there are many of both types.


----------



## Redshade

*milliard*

  • *noun* Brit., dated one thousand million; a billion.

Hi

Well "clear as mud" then, thanks Oxford.

In the 70s I went on a basic Introduction to Computers type course.Some of the filmed lectures we were shown were old USAF (the course was being run by a US based firm) training films in black and white and obviously from the 50s in which the term billion was used in the American sense with no mention of any other system.

However the  (again US sourced) 70s text books always had a proviso that one billion was being used in the American way and not the differing UK style.

I remember learning of the milliard/billion difference at school in the 60s but as such numbers were not in everyday use it was immaterial.

Nowadays in the UK I doubt if anyone under 40 has heard the word milliard and billion would always be recognised as  
   1,000,000,000   with most people unaware that this was an "American" word as opposed to a "British" one.


----------



## Thomas Tompion

I'm surprised members aren't more aware of the existence of two scales of numbers, the long and the short scale. Here's about the simplest clear explanation I could find. Of course if people don't agree which scale they are using they are likely to be at cross purposes.
_*Short scale* is the English translation of the French term échelle courte.  It refers to a system of numeric names in which every new term greater than million is *1,000 times* the previous term: "billion" means "a thousand millions", "trillion" means "a thousand billions", and so on. _

_*Long scale* is the English translation of the French term échelle longue. It refers to a system of numeric names in which every new term greater than million is *1,000,000 times* the previous term: "billion" (from bi and million) means "a million to the power of two" or "a million millions", "trillion" (from tri and million) means "a million to the power of three" or "a million billions", and so on._​


----------



## Alxmrphi

I didn't realise it was about a series of scales used to group numbers up when they get too big, that's the difference explained then!


----------



## panjandrum

Some further sentences from the Wiki article that TT has linked above are very useful.



> For most of the 19th and 20th centuries, the United Kingdom uniformly used the long scale while the United States of America used the short scale, so that usage of the two systems was often referred to as "British" and "American" respectively.
> In 1974 the government of the UK abandoned the long scale, so that the UK now exclusively applies the short scale interpretation in mass media and official usage.
> ...
> The two systems can be a subject of controversy and can arouse emotion. Usage changes can evoke resentment in adherents to the older system, while national differences of any kind can acquire patriotic overtones.


----------



## Alxmrphi

I'll give it a read panj, I think it described my view of it quite well (but I was born in the 80's, well after the switch over and I wasn't even aware the American scale was 1,000 million until last year.) So I think for a lot of people that are outside the official circles, they either don't know the exact number (in a way you don't need to, you just know it's a _helluva_ lot more than a million.

So the Germans still use the long scale?


----------



## Sabapathy

Hi, Folks,

It is easy.

for the Americans,

a 1000,000 ( a thousand thousand ) = million

a 1000,000,000 ( a thousand million ) = billion.

and
according to british usage,

a 1000,1000 ( a thousand thousand ) = million ( same as american usage.)

a 1000,000,000,000 ( a million million ) = billion ( this is not same as american usage )

Hope it is all clear

- Sabapathy


----------



## panjandrum

Hutschi said:


> ...
> The long form (British usage) is used in the most countries.
> ...


I think it has been demonstrated above that the UK no longer uses the long form in any serious context.
It is therefore misleading to refer to the long form as "British usage".
Within English (the scope of this forum), those who use the term billion  routinely have been consistently using the short form (1,000,000,000) for decades.


----------



## panjandrum

The full OED entries (1989):
*1.* _orig._ and still commonly in Great Britain: A million millions. (= U.S. _trillion_.)  
*2.* In U.S., and increasingly in Britain: A thousand millions.





Hutschi said:


> In this case the New Shorter Oxford English dictionary is misleading. It states: ...
> _1 A Million Million, now only in British pop. ... 2 A Thousand Million ..._
> 
> ...


Could you give the rest of the entry at (1) - it's not clear what "British pop" means?

The Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary click uses thousand million for its first two definitions, followed by:
_3 (old-fashioned, BrE) 1 000 000 000 000; one million million_

As has been said, this is language evolution in progress.
Even if we assume that the SOED entry does not refer to popular music, the definition indicates that by 1993 use of the long billion was limited.
That seems reasonable to me and reflects the discussion above.
Both of the older definitions clearly indicate the change in usage.


----------



## Hutschi

It refers to "population".



> billion [IPA-Text] n. & a. L17. [Fr., f. as MILLION by substitution of B I A n. Pl. same w. specified number, -s when indefinite. 1 A million million, 10¹² . Cf. TRILLION. (Now only in British pop. use.) L17. 2 A thousand million, 109 (10 to the ninth potence - I cannot write it); in pl. (without specifying wd), several billions, very large numbers. M19. B adj. After an article, possessive, etc.: a million times a million (now only in British pop. use); a thousand times a million;


It continues for other usage



> hyperbof. a very great many. After a numeral or quantifier: multiples of a billion. M20.


The Shorter Ocxford English Dictionary, (1993)


----------



## Agró

Hutschi said:


> It depends on what do you understand on "rest of the world".
> 
> In Germany, a "Billion" is clearly a "Million Million".



And almost everywhere else!


----------



## Thomas Tompion

For the treatment in dictionaries of the words used for large numbers, you may find this helpful, particularly its table. I can't really quote any of it, because there is so much detail.

I was interested to see that France went from using the short to the long scale in 1948.

This gives a list of long and short-scale countries.  Very helpful.


----------



## Thomas Tompion

> Originally Posted by *Hutschi*
> 
> 
> It depends on what do you understand on "rest of the world".
> 
> In Germany, a "Billion" is clearly a "Million Million".





Agró said:


> And almost everywhere else!


 
Except the UK, the USA, Brazil, Puerto Rico, Russia, Turkey, Greece, and some other places given on that list. Those are important exceptions to your suggestion, Agró.

I was interested to see that some countries use the short scale for some numbers and the long scale for others; that makes life more confusing still.


----------



## cuchuflete

_Moderator note:  Please look at the top of your screen.  You will see this:

_


> *English Only* Questions involving English usage.


----------



## panjandrum

Hutschi said:


> It refers to "population".
> ....


On investigation, I suspect that the abbreviation pop. represents popular (that is its meaning in other Oxford dictionaries).

As indicated elsewhere in this thread, in casual conversation or popular usage, there are some who would if asked say that a billion is a million million.

Those who use the term seriously mean a thousand million.  That includes for example, the BBC.  Look for references to billion on the BBC website for confirmation.


----------



## George French

A billion was 10 to the power of 12 in UK-EN and 10 to the power 9 in the USA.
I avoid the billion issue by using a thousand million or a million million. This way there is no doubt as to the intention. For disk capacity Giga and Tera suffice. At least on this the UK and US EN versions are in agreement!

For *good communication* it may be a good idea not to use billion! But I am whistling in the wind..... 

GF..


----------



## cuchuflete

Thomas Tompion said:


> This gives a list of long and short-scale countries.  Very helpful.



Quoting just a bit of it...*UK usage*

 The term "milliard" is now obsolete in British English, and "billion" has meant nothing except 109 in all published writing for many years now. Both the UK government and the BBC use the short scale exclusively in all contexts. Anyone _deliberately_ using billion to mean 1012 in British English is likely to be misunderstood.​


----------



## Thomas Tompion

George French said:


> [...]But I am whistling in the wind.....
> 
> GF..


And not reading a lot that has gone before, George, for which you can be forgiven.


----------



## George French

Thomas Tompion said:


> And not reading a lot that has gone before, George, for which you can be forgiven.


 
Thomas,

Thank you for forgiving this rebel.

GeorgeF..

PS.. This is rather a hackneyed subject in the English Forum any way. I'm surprised this thread wasn't closed long ago. Who is going to do it?!


----------



## cuchuflete

Hutschi said:


> Indeed, this answers the original question.
> Is this phrase common?



The practice of a single individual answers the original question?  That's a logical leap billions (long or short, as you wish) of miles wide.


----------



## spb

Could this thread be showing why the global economy is in such a mess?


----------



## panjandrum

Hutschi said:


> Indeed, this answers the original question.
> Is this phrase common?


There are several "original questions" 

Having worked for years in a context where billion was the term of choice (and unambiguously 1,000,000,000) I'd have to say that "thousand million" is not a common phrase.

Looking for more objective information ... in the British National Corpus (text from 1980s to 1993):
*billion:* 4,735  
- a look through the first few pages show most of these are in relation to finance and clearly mean thousand million.
*thousand million:* 101


----------



## cuchuflete

Hutschi said:


> It was in #1: The question is, whether British "milliard" or "a thousand million" is used for AE "billion" and now BE "billion".
> 
> The answer is "Yes, it is used".
> 
> The question was not what is the meaning, but are the words used - as far as I understand it.
> 
> The indirect question may be what is the meaning.



However many billions (your own definition will suffice) of times you may choose to ignore the many statements in this thread, and the many dictionary citations provided, the answer is that "milliard" is used, but very sparingly.  

Yet again,



> *milliard*
> 
> 
> • *noun* Brit., *dated* one thousand million; a billion.


 Compact OED.  Emphasis added. 


Many words are used.  Some are used with little, and decreasing, frequency.  They are perfectly good words.  It is neither immoral nor against the law to use them. If the objective of the user is clear communication, uncommon words are used with purpose and with care.  

Way back at post #1, gaer told us that the Cambridge dictionary site did not list milliard.  If you are curious, you might try to find it at the web site of the Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary.  You might stumble across a duck.


----------



## panjandrum

If I came across _milliard _in a serious context I would look it up to be sure I had the meaning right.
I have never used it.



			
				George French said:
			
		

> PS.. This is rather a hackneyed subject in the English Forum any way. I'm surprised this thread wasn't closed long ago.


Each time the thread is resurrected we get more opinions and reactions, and more research.  I think this is valuable.  

(This thread is a concatenation of about five - hence there are at least five versions of "original question" )


----------



## jailer

Hi all

This thread seems to be lacking in specific examples and just uses dictionary quotes and peoples likes and dislikes.

Referring *specifically to the use of billion in British English*, without comparisons with "milliard" in other languages or what it means to speakers of other English variants, which number is meant by "billion" is journalistic articles such as this one:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle4407512.ece ?

A billion thanks in advance (however many that may be!)


----------



## Loob

One thousand million. That's been the "official" meaning of billion for a number of years.

See this 1974 answer by Harold Wilson to a written Parliamentary Question:





> _Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop _asked the Prime Minister whether he will make it the practice of his administration that when Ministers employ the word "billion" in any official speeches, documents, or answers to Parliamentary Questions, they will, to avoid confusion, only do so in its British meaning of 1 million million and not in the sense in which it is used in the United States of America, which uses the term "billion" to mean 1,000 million.
> The Prime Minister No. The word "billion" is now used internationally to mean 1,000 million and it would be confusing if British Ministers were to use it in any other sense. I accept that it could still be interpreted in this country as 1 million million and I shall ask my colleagues to ensure that, if they do use it, there should be no ambiguity as to its meaning.


Source


----------



## JamesM

According to this Wikipedia article, the entire budget for the UK in 2007-2008 was projected to be 700,000,000,000 (700 Billion in U.S. terms, or to be perfectly clear since this is the topic of discussion, 700 thousand million). I can't see how "billion" in the article could refer to "million millions" (trillions in AE) since that would make the tax error nearly four times the size of the annual budget. It seems to me that £2.8 billion in the article can only mean £2,800,000,000 (2.8 thousand million), not £2,800,000,000,000 (2.8 million million, which in AE terms would be "trillion").


----------



## jailer

loob and JamesM - Thank you both for the clearest answers in this thread!

That's it from me.


----------



## Thomas Tompion

JamesM said:


> According to this Wikipedia article, the entire budget for the UK in 2007-2008 was projected to be 700,000,000,000 (700 Billion in U.S. terms, or to be perfectly clear since this is the topic of discussion, 700 thousand million). I can't see how "billion" in the article could refer to "million millions" (trillions in AE) since that would make the tax error nearly four times the size of the annual budget. It seems to me that £2.8 billion in the article can only mean £2,800,000,000 (2.8 thousand million), not £2,800,000,000,000 (2.8 million million, which in AE terms would be "trillion").


The UK Office for National Statistics and hence the UK government have used the short scale since 1974. There's no question of £700 billion in a recent UK official document being anything other than £700,000,000,000. Here's another article which talks at some length about the conventions:

_For most of the 19th and 20th centuries, the __United Kingdom__ uniformly used the long scale, while the __United States of America__ used the short scale, so that usage of the two systems was often referred to as "British" and "American" respectively. In 1974 the government of the UK abandoned the long scale, so that the UK now exclusively applies the short scale interpretation in __mass media__ and official usage. Although some residual usage of the long scale continues in the UK, the phrases "British usage" and "American usage" are no longer accurate or helpful characterizations. The two systems can be a subject of __misunderstanding__ or controversy and can arouse emotion. Usage changes can evoke resentment in adherents to the older system, while national differences of any kind can acquire patriotic overtones. _


----------



## Sabapathy

Here as under, is given, what has been agreed upon internationally the mathamatical units
and  are being used  by  banks  all  over  the  world  for  currency  counting.

10  to the power of 3  =  1000  (  thousand )
10  to the power of 6  =   1000,000 (  thousand thousand = million )
10  to the power of 9  =   1000,000,000 ( thousand million  =  billion )
10  to the power of 12 =  1000,000,000,000 ( thousand billion  =  trillion )

like  wise  it  goes  on  to  quadrillion  etc.,  always  increasing  the  power  number  by  3.

I  hope  this  explanation  ,  even  though  mathamatically  expressed  ,  gives  a  definite  understanding  into  the  english  term  " million "  ;  " billion "  etc.  In  my  opinion,  this  is  well  with in the scope of this forum ,  that  the  above  explanation  is  given.

Thanks

Sabapathy
----------


----------



## fdk47

How do you read out loud when you see "1000" on a table for profits of each division in a company? The table is in million dollars.

Do AE speakers say “One thousand million” because you see "1000", or “One billion”?

I think BE speakers say  “One thousand million” because that is not one billion in BE.

Thank you.


----------



## Linkway

"I think BE speakers say “One thousand million” _because that is not one billion in BE_."

No, a billion in current British English is 1,000,000,000.


----------



## fdk47

Oh, thank you Linkway, I got that wrong.

Do both BE and AE speakers say “One thousand million” because you see "1000" on the table, or “One billion”?

Thank you.


----------



## PeterR

fdk47 - the answer to your question cannot be given better than in the paragraph in red in Thomas Tompion's post above:
"_For most of the 19th and 20th centuries, the United Kingdom uniformly used the long scale, while the United States of America used the short scale, so that usage of the two systems was often referred to as "British" and "American" respectively. In 1974 the government of the UK abandoned the long scale, so that the UK now exclusively applies the short scale interpretation in mass media and official usage. Although some residual usage of the long scale continues in the UK, the phrases "British usage" and "American usage" are no longer accurate or helpful characterizations. The two systems can be a subject of misunderstanding or controversy and can arouse emotion. Usage changes can evoke resentment in adherents to the older system, while national differences of any kind can acquire patriotic overtones."

_Just because the UK government may have changed usage as long ago as when some of us were children (something I was totally unaware of, only knowing that the BBC now seems to use the INCORRECT AMERICAN form), those of us whose parents told us that in GREAT Britain a billion was A MILLION MILLION (1,000,000,000,000), and that anything else was American nonsense, may still have strong feelings about the matter!  Please note that all capitals in the above are intended for humour not as bullying or shouting but that I am ENGLISH (despite having lived in Scotland most of my life and often finding ENGLISH people annoying), and so can't resist stirring the pot!  I am also the son of wartime parents, none of your 1960s decadence here thank you very much. <*<*_chatspeak_*>*>.

Best wishes

Peter


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## Linkway

The change to the definition of "billion" in British English was not imposed unilaterally by the government.  For years before that decision, the term billion was used both ways in British society - the most  obvious split was between the financial media on the one hand and government publications on the other, and created enormous ambiguity for readers and writers.

The "official" change was not simply to bring BE into line with AE.  It was to remedy an increasingly difficult contradiction in usage WITHIN British usage as well as international inconsistency.

Billion is now used as 1,000,000,000 by all reputable media organisations, governmental, business, educational, financial, scientific, etc, bodies and writers in British English_



>>> Do both BE and __AE speakers say “One thousand million” because you see "1000" on the table, or “One billion”?


_In general, when reading numbers we tend to use the largest applicable unit. Hence, 1,200,000,000 would be read as 1.2 billion.

I am not aware of any AE/BE differences about that in mainstream current usage.

But your precise question is impossible for anyone to answer completely reliably because:

1.  You are asking an empirical question about people's actual linguistic behaviour and there is likely to be some variation based on personal habits and billions of individual decisions.  Even the same person will utter things differently from time to time.

2,  You said that the table's figures were expressed in millions. Some of the numbers in the table may be less than a billion and some more.  A speaker reading from the table may opt to switch between billions and millions.  However, if most of the numbers in the table were less than a billion, the speaker *might* choose to express them all consistently in millions for clarity especially if doing a verbal presentation such as an audiovisual presentation to a business meeting.


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## fdk47

Thank you so much, PeterR and Linkway!


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