# the heir to the throne



## Michael Zwingli

Hi, everyone.

I am wondering how to properly translate into Latin the phrase "the heir to the throne". Specifically, I am unsure about what grammatical case the word "throne" should take in Latin. Of course, "heir to the throne" is a fairly idiomatic English expression, meaning that _thronus_ probably wouldn't be used to express this, but rather _regnum, "kingship"_ would be the better word to use in Latin. Note that the subject and the verb of this phrase are left unspoken. Let the subject be "he", and the verb is obviously "to be". It seems obvious to me initially that _regnum_ should not take the vocative case. Since the unspoken verb of the sentence is "to be", _esse_, there can be no objects, direct or indirect, of the verb; since there is no direct object (which _regnum _would not be in this sentence anyways) the accusative case is out as well, and since there is no indirect object, then, _regnum _seems like it should not be in the dative. Note that he implied movement of _heres_ is towards rather than away from _regnum, _and also that _regnum_ seems not to serve an instrumental function. Even so, should _regnum_ take the ablative case as a result of serving a locative function in the sentence? Please note the difference between being "the heir of (somebody)", and being "the heir to (something)", which I think has more of a locative sense (covered by the ablative in Latin). It is the difference between saying: "Jon Snow is the rightful heir of Aerys Targaryen", and "Jon Snow is the rightful heir to the iron throne." I realize that in the first example, "Aerys Targaryen probably takes the genitive case because it is implied that said Aerys is the origin of the thing to which Jon Snow is heir. What I was wondering about, however, is the case that "iron throne" takes in the second example, where the preposition "to" implies a movement toward that thing to which Jon Snow is heir, which is why I thought it might serve the locative function, and so take the ablative. Still, I find myself unsure about this. If it does not take the ablative, it seems to me that _regnum_ should remain in the nominative, is that the case here?

To summarize: should I say _"heres regno" _(ablative)_, "heres regni" _(genitive)_, _or_ "heres regnum" _(nominative)?

Thanks much in advance for the feedback on this matter. The issue of case kills me in composition...

Mike


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## bearded

Hi
The default expression seems to be _heres regni _(see here: heres regni).

One remark: for me, the ablative case must be absolutely ruled out: '' to the throne'' would rather (if ever) correspond to a dative case. And the nominative case would not make sense in my opinion.


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## Michael Zwingli

Thanks, bearded.

I think that it cannot be dative, since there is no (direct or indirect) object for this sentence, since the verb is intransitive "_esse_". The genitive seems to be the consensus for this, although for the life of me I cannot understand how the Latin genitive fulfills that role. I guess I'll just have to go with the genitive without understanding it.


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## Scholiast

saluete omnes!

I think Cicero or Caesar or Tacitus would have preferred simply _filius regis_, but according to _OLD_ the phrase _heres regni_ is used in [Caes.] _Bell. Alex_. (66.5) and Livy (1.40.4), and _externus heres in regnum queritur _appears in Virg. _Aen._ 7.424 ('a foreign [i.e. non-Italian] successor is called for'), with implied reference to Aeneas himself, the immigrant to Italy who is to supplant Turnus as Latinus' destined son-in-law and prototypical 'Roman' king.

'Heir _*to*_ the throne' appears to be a peculiarly English idiom.

Σ


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## fdb

For most of the time of the Roman Empire the title of the Emperor was Augustus Imperator, and the heir to the throne was called Caesar.


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## Scholiast

saluete de nouo!


fdb said:


> For most of the time of the Roman Empire the title of the Emperor was Augustus Imperator, and the heir to the throne was called Caesar.


Indeed. But proudly and defiantly rejecting, as they did (at least in name), any form of kingship for their own body politic, Romans could only use such phraseology as _heres regni _to refer to the heir of a ruler of some non-Roman tribe or principality.

Σ


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## Michael Zwingli

fdb said:


> For most of the time of the Roman Empire the title of the Emperor was Augustus Imperator, and the heir to the throne was called Caesar.





Scholiast said:


> Indeed. But proudly and defiantly rejecting, as they did (at least in name), any form of kingship for their own body politic, Romans could only use such phraseology as _heres regni _to refer to the heir of a ruler of some non-Roman tribe or principality.


Is that so? Fascinating! I never knew that, and now I feel inspired to research the etymology of the word _caesar_.  More to my point, though, if anybody can explain to me why _regnum_ takes the genitive in the term _heres regni_, that would go a long way to my understanding what is vexing me...

Thanks,
Mike


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## fdb

Michael Zwingli said:


> Is that so? Fascinating! I never knew that, and now I feel inspired to research the etymology of the word _caesar_.



Copious discussion here: German Kaiser, Russian tsar, Arabic qayṣar


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## Michael Zwingli

fdb said:


> Copious discussion here:  ...Arabic qayṣar


That is yet more fascinating, as Arabic lies outside of the IE family. I have not had time to look into this etymology as yet, but now am even more interested to do so. I wonder if this instance represents an instance of word-loaning either from or to the Arabic.


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## Snodv

Well, on Caesar:  it was a Latin family name first, a cognomen of the Iulii (the Julian clan).  It became a title only later in the Empire.  It may or may not have something to do with the Latin verb _caedo_ (cut), which has _caesus_ as its perfect passive participle.  _Tsar, kaiser,_ and _qaysar_ are all borrowings, and the given names _Cesar_ and _Cesare_ are descendants.


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## symposium

I'm sure there are many Wikipedia pages on this subject, but I think I remember from my schooldays that "ceasar" meant  "elephant" in Phoenician, and that it became the surname of a line of the Julii clan when one of J. Ceasar's ancestors killed an elephant during one of the Punic Wars...


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## Pietruzzo

Scholiast said:


> Heir _*to*_ the throne' appears to be a peculiarly English idiom.


The Italian "erede al trono" sounds quite similar.


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