# Шляпу пирожком нес в руке



## gvozd

Вот, начал сравнивать оригинал "Мастера и Маргариты" с английским переводом. Интересно до жути. 



> Первый из них, одетый в летнюю серенькую пару, был маленького роста, упитан, лыс, свою приличную шляпу *пирожком* нес в руке, а на хорошо выбритом лице его помещались сверхъестественных размеров очки в черной роговой оправе.





> The first sported a gray summer suit and was short, plump, and bald. He carried his respectable fedora in his hand, and black horn-rimmed spectacles of supernatural proportions adorned his clean-shaven face.



Куда подевался пирожок? Это так необычно и глупо звучит для английского уха?


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## Maroseika

Наверное, так же глупо, как бо́льшая часть других дословно переведенных идиом и привычных метафор. Так же глупо, как та жа федора, имеющая интересную этимологию, связанную с пьесой вряд ли кому известного у нас автора, даром что Федорой там звали русскую принцессу. 
Русское ухо удивляется этому пирожку только в детстве, впервые услыхав. А вы разве воображаете себе жареный пирожок при всяком упоминании такой шляпы?
Но вообще-то перевод следует признать точным, fedora действительно шляпа пирожком. Что интересно, эта бывшая дамская шляпа, введенная в мужской обиход Эдуардом VIII только в 1924, была в конце двадцатых, когда писался роман, последним писком моды.


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## gvozd

Понял, спасибо.


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## LilianaB

А я думаю что этот перевод глупо звучит как топором  After further reading, I am really not sure. It is hard to translate Bulghakov. Maybe it has to be this way.


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## Maroseika

LilianaB said:


> А я думаю что этот перевод глупо звучит как топором


Топором? Что вы имеете в виду?


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## LilianaB

It does not have lightness and flow, but maybe this is really the only way. It sounds much better in Russian.


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## gvozd

LilianaB said:


> It does not have lightness and flow, but maybe this is really the only way. It sounds much better in Russian.



Of course it does. Don't you think that Russian translation of Shakespeare may sound better than the original verses?


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## LilianaB

No, there are few works which sound better in the translation. Usually not so good literature which is fixed by a talented translator sounds better than the original. I am amazed that people have translated Shakespeare into Russian at all. What about Pushkin? Does he sound like anything in any other language?


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## morzh

None of the known to me poets from Russian or English literature, who actually rhymed the whole verse (unlike Shakespeare who in his pieces only rhymed the ends of the monologues), after going through the translation process, sounds in such a way that will give a good idea of the way the original sounds.
Actually, some Shakespeare translations, like "Hamlet" (though not the one by Pasternak, even though it is excellent and probably the best - but there's too much of Pasternak-the-poet in it) do give some good idea about how he sounds. But then it is mostly blank verse, which makes it easy enough to keep the meter.

As for Bulgakov, especially his "M&M" (sorry for the pun), which is choke-full of culturally-defined scenery/wording, it is my opinion that it's rather impossible to create a very adequate translation. Maybe his "White Army" can be translated well, even though I can see difficulties if I was doing this, but  "M&M" is just too much.
We did discuss "culture-related" difficulties of translation here several times.


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## LilianaB

Глаточек бензиа sounds much better than a sip of gasoline. If you know what I mean.


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## morzh

ГлОточек.

And, yes - English lacks the diverse system of hypocorisms and diminutives Russian has.
But this is still a very accurate translation.

You can also say "a shot of gas", since "shot" is a small amount, equal to 1-1/2oz and would not constitute a whole gulp, but a small one.


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## LilianaB

It still would not be the same. The Russian expression makes the cat somehow innocent.


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## morzh

As for "шляпа пирожком", there is possible confusion between understanding the phrase as "шляпа была приплюснута, как пирожок" (a wearing style rather than a hat style)  and as "шляпа-пирожок", which is what I think it is.

This was a popular style with end of 19-th - beg. of 20-th century "intelligentsia" - one can see photographs of various people wearing this style that; my grandfather had one of those. It fell out of favor during the revolution and made a come-back during НЭП то 30-th, when the elite started wearing it.
Those remembering "karakulchi" hat worn by the Soviet elite may remember Brezhnev's one, or Gorbachev's (he actually wore a seal-fur "pirozhok").

I am not sure how this style is called, but a close enough one is "cossack" hat.


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## Maroseika

morzh said:


> This was a popular style with end of 19-th - beg. of 20-th century "intelligentsia" - one can see photographs of various people wearing this style that;



If you mean such a hat, it's definitely not a fedora, and in this case translation is wrong. The only question is whether it was really called шляпа пирожком.


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## morzh

This too, but this is closer:

Look for image Gorbachev / Brezhnev and see the hat.

Use "шляпа-пирожок", click "images" = one of teh first is gonna be Gorbachev wearing it.


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## Maroseika

I doubt this model existed in the 20th.


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## JULLIA

Шекспир звучит изумительно по-русски. Не верится, что может быть еще лучше.


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## gvozd

JULLIA said:


> Шекспир звучит изумительно по-русски. Не верится, что может быть еще лучше.



Справьтесь об этом у англичанина Интересно, что Вам ответят.


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## morzh

Да Шекспир вообще русским был, а по-английски писал из необходимости: на Руси в то время его стихи оказались невостребованными, да и театр тогда был, в основном, скомороший - вот он и писал для англичан. И при этом тосковал и пил шотландский виски галлонами.


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## SuprunP

The first of them - aged about forty, dressed in a greyish summer suit - was short, dark-haired, well-fed and bald. He carried his decorous *pork-pie hat* by the brim and his neatly shaven face was embellished by black hornrimmed spectacles of preternatural dimensions.
(Translated from Russian by Michael Glenny)


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## ahvalj

JULLIA said:


> Шекспир звучит изумительно по-русски. Не верится, что может быть еще лучше.


«во-вторых, в немецком иногда просто швах, так что всё больше от себя сочиняю и только тем и утешаюсь, что от этого еще лучше выходит»


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## morzh

We've been through that already.

A pork-pie hat is not at all what "шляпа-пирожок" is. There are many people on the Web who criticize this translation when discussing the English version of "M&M".


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## SuprunP

morzh said:


> There are many people on the Web who criticize this translation when discussing the English version of "M&M".



From this point of view our discussion is simply useless. Every piece of literary translation can be, and in almost all cases was, are, or should be, criticized.


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## morzh

SuprunP said:


> From this point of view our discussion is simply useless. Every piece of literary translation can be, and in almost all cases was, are, or should be, criticized.



Well then, what precludes me from translating "шляпа пирожком" as "Ten-gallon hat", "Fedora" (one of the translations BTW), or even "opera hat" (шапокляк)?


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## SuprunP

morzh said:


> Well then, what precludes me from translating "шляпа пирожком" as "Ten-gallon hat", "Fedora" (one of the translations BTW), or even "opera hat" (шапокляк)?


Well, actually nothing apart from your _subjective_ feeling of how it should be translated and having confidence that this it the best way to convey the ideas of the original text.


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## LilianaB

Do you mean the airport hat, aerodrom? Of course it is a word for word translation. I am not too good with hats.
I think it means folded here, like pirog.


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## morzh

LilianaB said:


> Do you mean the airport hat, aerodrom? Of course it is a word for word translation. I am not too good with hats.
> I think it means folded here, like pirog.



No, "Аэродром" hat, which is sort of a "кепка", a very large (hence the name), and is worn mostly in No. Caucasus and Transcaucasia, has nothing to do with either pork-pie or "пирожок" hats.

Actually what you can do is to go on Google, and search for "шляпа-пирожок", "аэродром" and "pork-pie hat", and use "images" to see the difference.


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## LilianaB

Thank you, Morzh, in fact I hate hats, except for the hat hat. I think I know what these look like except the pork-pie hat.


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## morzh

LilianaB said:


> Thank you, Morzh, in fact I hate hats, except for the hat hat. I think I know what these look like except the pork-pie hat.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pork_pie_hat


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## LilianaB

This is cool.


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## morzh

In my earlier post #13 here I wrote about "Cossack hats" being the name for "шляпа-пирожок".

I probably would not touch this subject anymore, had it not been for what happened to me yesterday.
I have to write a story, so bear with me a bit.

Yesterday night I went for some groceries in our supermarket, and on my way out, at the cash register, I noticed an old man in a wheelchair, wearing "пирожок", that was made from what I think was the black "karakul" pelt. 
The man looked a bit mongoloid (Asian), and was accompanied by a younger woman who also looked Asian.
I came to the man and asked him in English, what he called that hat.
He answered something like "kalabuka" - obviously making it up (I forgot exact word).
Then as I was checking out, I noticed him talking to the woman while looking at me.
I came up to them again, and he said in English - "Talk to her - she knows what to call it".
She said: "It's a Russian hat; we call it a Cossack hat".
I said: "Yes, I know this name, but I was not sure of it; in my language we call it a "pie-hat"".
"What language is this?" - she asked.
"Russian", I answered.
"We speak Russian" - she said, and then suddenly both she and the old man were speaking to me in Russian, with some accent.
"Это же пирожок" - I said.
"Да, это пирожок" - said the old man, and the woman added, "а здесь это - Cossack hat". 
"Мы - калмыки" - added she (we are Kalmyks).
I knew there is a large community of Kalmyks nearby - they came as refugees many years ago.


So, to summarize - they confirmed that, at least what we (my generation) know as "пирожок" is known here as the "Cossack hat".


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## gvozd

Занятненько...


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## PERSEE

Hi everyone,

I'm a late-comer in this discussion, which from what I've read deals almost exclusively with hats, hat shapes and hat names. My question would be a grammatical one : can someone explain to me the use of the instrumental (творительный падеж) in _пирожком_?


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## gvozd

PERSEE said:


> can someone explain to me the use of the instrumental (творительный падеж) in _пирожком_?



Шляпа (чем?) пирожком. To be honest, I don't know how to explain it


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## morzh

PERSEE said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I'm a late-comer in this discussion, which from what I've read deals almost exclusively with hats, hat shapes and hat names. My question would be a grammatical one : can someone explain to me the use of the instrumental (творительный падеж) in _пирожком_?



This is simple: rather than saying "шляпа-пирожок" simply denoting the hat style, the author describes the style as being the "state of the hat" or "a shape of the hat". This uses Instrumental case.
Either one is allowed

Examples:

Шляпа пирожком - hat shaped into a pie (literally).
Нос уточкой (a nose shape like a little duckie's)- turned-up nose.
Рожа утюгом - (a face with the "clothing iron" expression literally) - an indifferent face expression.
Он змейкой проскользнул в дверь - he snaked himself through the door (he went through the door inconspicuously, in a snake-like manner, as slithering)

Instrumental, then, is used to describe shapes, expression and otherwise object-like (being similar to the object) states of someone/something.

PS. More examples:

Голова огурцом - a head shaped like a cucumber.
Держа руку лопатой - holding a hand like a shovel.
Стоять горой - literally "to stand like a mountain" (to be very protective of something / someone).


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## PERSEE

Beautiful and economical. In a way, it is to a noun what an adverb is to a verb. (I was about to write: it _transforms_ the noun into an adverb, so to speak.)

I'm amazed at how simplified Russian can be for beginners! They never tell you all the values of the cases... For example, we French beginners were told that the instrumental was used for the agent — in French, "complément d'agent".
Ex.: The man is bitten by the dog. (Мужчина кусан собакой.)


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## Explorer41

Well, here "пирожок" is a tool for being, so to say. Just like "собака" is a tool for biting in your example. All that is logical!


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## PERSEE

Explorer41 said:


> Well, here "пирожок" is a tool for being, so to say. Just like "собака" is a tool for biting in your example. All that is logical!



A tool for biting!

That's food for (my) thought. I know the logic is there, but it's hard for me to figure it out: it all seems less "square" in a language with prepositions like French...

By the way, you refer to my example without correcting it. Does that mean I made no mistake? Wow, I'm stunned...


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## morzh

Explorer41 said:


> Well, here "пирожок" is a tool for being, so to say. Just like "собака" is a tool for biting in your example. All that is logical!



No it is not the same except the usage of Instrumental.

In one case something IS something, and in the other - something is AFFECTED by something.

We are discussing the usage of the instrumental in reflecting the state / similarity.

If you say "Он собакой набросился на меня" - this then would be right (He lunged at me like a dog).
Or, as a poet put it:

"Я волком бы выгрыз бюрократизм" - "I would bite out the bureaucracy, like a wolf". That is he would be biting out in a wolf-like manner.


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## Explorer41

*morzh*, for me it's not that "шляпа" is a "пирожек", but rather "пирожок" is a way of "шляпа"'s being. You can exist in different ways. The hat exists, and the notion of "пирожок" affects its existing; but if the hat *were* a pie, then it would be "шляпа-пирожок", not "шляпа пирожком". Of course, the meanings are very close, so I'd use both terms.

And I don't claim that some 'being' verb should be present (it can though: "становиться собакой"): I say just that there is a common logic in various usages of the Instrumental case. The case has many manifolds of usages, they seem to be very different at first, but it shouldn't scare one away, as all the usages (probably  ) have a common logic.



PERSEE said:


> By the way, you refer to my example without correcting it. Does that mean I made no mistake? Wow, I'm stunned...


"Мужчина искусан собакой"/"Мужчина покусан собакой" would be better. Your example has a bit different meaning. And it doesn't sound very well, because its meaning is unusual: it kind of describes a quality of a man, like in the phrasing "стреляный воробей". But to have a quality "кусанный" - it's strange. To be bitten doesn't change your life so much - you don't become a different man.


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## alize meno

Wow, I'm so glad to find this thread, even ten years have past. I wonder if someone will still be around.
I'm working in Master i Margarita and I found a translation (made by a Russian native speaker) where "шляпу пирожком нес в руке" has been translated as if the meaning was that Berlioz held the hat in his hand like he carried a pirog or pastry. I mean, пирожком does not "affect" to шляпу, but to нес, to the way he is holding it. Therefore the question would not be what kind of hat is шляпа-пирожок, but that he carried the шляпа like he carried a пирожок.
What do you think? Could it be a correct interpretation?


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## Enquiring Mind

Hi alize meno, have you seen the following piece?


> *Переводческие ошибки и несоответствия *(...)
> *Ошибки понимания на уровне «знак - сложное понятие»*
> Данные ошибки возникают при расшифровке смыслов не отдельных слов, а словосочетаний. В качестве примера рассмотрим отрывок из произведения М.А. Булгакова «Мастер и Маргарита». В описании Берлиоза встречается такое выражение «свою приличную шляпу пирожком нес в руке». «Шляпа пирожком» - это сложное понятие, в содержании которого видовой признак родового понятия «шляпа» передан сравнением (как пирожок), в русском языке обозначено устойчивым словосочетанием. Смысл его в том, что шляпа напоминает пирожок, то есть она имеет сверху довольно глубокую продолговатую впадину.  (vuzlit.ru)


According to this, then, the hat *resembles* a pie, as explained in #2 at the start of this thread, and the sense of the phrase is *not* the way Berlioz carried it. [I don't know if it's right, I'm just the messenger here!  ]


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## alize meno

Thank you, very interesting!


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## Vovan

alize meno said:


> Could it be a correct interpretation?


No, it can't. "Пирожком" refers not to "нёс" but to "шляпу" - that was a fixed expression:
_шляпа/шапка пирожком _(т.е. с вдавленным верхом, похожим на пирожок)​


Later, the phrase was reduced to "пирожок":


> *пирожок
> 3.* _перен_. Мужская шапка без полей с продольно вдавленным верхом (разг.).
> _Шапка-пирожок._​https://classes.ru/all-russian/russian-dictionary-Ozhegov-term-22979.htm




    * * *

A few more examples of similar word combinations:

_плащ распашонкой, галстук бабочкой, шляпа котелком, кепка блином;_
_волосы ёжиком, борода клинышком, усы колечком, хвост трубой:_


 _*"Хвост трубой"*_​
_прыжок ласточкой _(=головой вниз; обыкн. в воду)_;_
_дым коромыслом._

_______________________
_(Source: Google Books.)_


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## nizzebro

Besides that it is a known collocation, the word order also matters. If it were 'свою приличную шляпу нёс пирожком в руке' it would sound as if the manner of the action, even though meaningless.


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## alize meno

Thank you both so much. It is pretty clear now. 
But some other doubts come to me: Is it a hat you can wear in summer? In the novel, the day is hot (spring) and Berlioz is dressed in summer clothes. Why should he carry such a hat? Is it usual or did Bulgakov pretend to be ironic here? 
The other question I have is (and I'm sorry to refloat it again): In the Bortko TV series Berlioz carries a different kind of hat, what it seems a Fedora or something similar. (In general - Is the series accurate? Would you consider it truthful to the book?)


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## Vovan

It seems to me, *Alize*, that summers in Russia aren't like ones in Spain!  It rains at times (which, in turn, might even bring coldness!). So wearing a hat in summer, even the kind of hat as the one in the picture above, doesn't strike me as something particularly odd.

The pictures were only presented to serve an example of what "шляпа/шапка пирожком" _may_ look like over here.  As to what kind of hat _exactly _was in Berlioz's hand, I haven't the slightest idea, sorry!


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## nizzebro

If the hat was like that referred to in #2 , I guess that it is rather the  matter of looking respectable, to wear a hat (which is not the case today) especially considering his status as a manager and intellectual. But, it was really hot so he took it off.


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## lena55313

Интересная тема. Я никогда не задумывалась, как выглядит шляпа пирожком. А сейчас прочитала, что это вовсе не Федора, а pork-pie hat. У нее плоский верх, и по краю тульи идет ложбинка.


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## Maroseika

alize meno said:


> But some other doubts come to me: Is it a hat you can wear in summer? In the novel, the day is hot (spring) and Berlioz is dressed in summer clothes. Why should he carry such a hat? Is it usual or did Bulgakov pretend to be ironic here?


If you watch any pre-war movie, almost every man there is in a hat - in any country and in any weather. Of course, summer hats were made of a lighter material.


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## Angelo di fuoco

Maroseika said:


> If you watch any pre-war movie, almost every man there is in a hat - in any country and in any weather. Of course, summer hats were made of a lighter material.



Rather than _*being*_ in hats, those men *wear* them. 
Personally, I found wearing a hat in Spain in summer very advisable. It reduces the risk of a heat stroke.


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## alize meno

Thanks everybody for your contributions.




Vovan said:


> It seems to me, *Alize*, that summers in Russia aren't like ones in Spain!  It rains at times (which, in turn, might even bring coldness!). So wearing a hat in summer, even the kind of hat as the one in the picture above, doesn't strike me as something particularly odd.


Vovan, you're absolutely right, here in Spain is different, but I've been in Piter and Moscow in June and July and there were days that you could die . I thought those hats were made of wool or fur, that's why it stroke me as strange, so thank you for clearing that it isn't odd. I also can discard irony here.


Vovan said:


> The pictures were only presented to serve an example of what "шляпа/шапка пирожком" _may_ look like over here.  As to what kind of hat _exactly _was in Berlioz's hand, I haven't the slightest idea, sorry!


I have to give up my hopes... :_(  Thanks anyway!


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## pimlicodude

Vovan said:


> No, it can't. "Пирожком" refers not to "нёс" but to "шляпу" - that was a fixed expression:
> _шляпа/шапка пирожком _(т.е. с вдавленным верхом, похожим на пирожок)​View attachment 66610​Later, the phrase was reduced to "пирожок":
> 
> 
> 
> * * *
> 
> A few more examples of similar word combinations:
> 
> _плащ распашонкой, галстук бабочкой, шляпа котелком, кепка блином;_
> _волосы ёжиком, борода клинышком, усы колечком, хвост трубой:_
> View attachment 66611 _*"Хвост трубой"*_​
> _прыжок ласточкой _(=головой вниз; обыкн. в воду)_;_
> _дым коромыслом._
> 
> _______________________
> _(Source: Google Books.)_


Vovan, I think без полей is important to the definition there - a hat without a brim. So one of the translations of this word that says "holding his pork-pie hat by the brim" may be mistaken to the extent that such a hat has no brim?


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## Vovan

pimlicodude said:


> So one of the translations of this word that says "holding his pork-pie hat by the brim" may be mistaken to the extent that such a hat has no brim?


I believe so, yes.


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## Vovan

alize meno said:


> I thought those hats were made of wool or fur, that's why it stroke me as strange.


Of wool and felt respectively.
Seriously, it all depends on the weather (and the time of day ), which is capricious at times. In June, for example, the temperature in Moscow can drop by a whole 25°С in the wink of an eye!


> Лето — наиболее  подходящее время для посещения Москвы. Тем не менее, первый месяц славится неустойчивой погодой — комфортные +25..+30ºC могут смениться грозами и ночным похолоданием до +5..+10ºC.
> https://pogoda33.ru/%D0%9C%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B2%D0%B0


And in general, life is full of surprises:                                                                                         


> *В Москве выпал мокрый снег*
> _10:24, 2 июня 2017 г.      _
> Мокрый снег идет в центре Москвы, передает корреспондент "Интерфакса". <...> По данным Гидрометцентра России, погода будет облачная, местами пройдет небольшой дождь, температура воздуха не превысит 12-14 градусов.
> https://www.interfax.ru/moscow/564982


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