# самый



## macdevster

I'm looking for ways to demonstrate *самый* with adjectives with my students.  I'm asking them to think about their "oldest" or "tallest" friend or family member (and I intend to use a variety of other adjectives as well).  While double-checking my use of genitive in google translate, I noticed that "oldest" was translated as *старейший*.  When I re-typed it as "most old" I got the construction I wanted with самый.  But it made me wonder if *самый старый* might sound odd?

Are there times when *самый* doesn't work with adjectives?


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## Vovan

macdevster said:


> But it made me wonder if *самый старый* might sound odd?


Hi, Macdevster!
"Самый старший" is what we use to speak about oldest/eldest family members or (more rarely) oldest/eldest friends and other people.
"Самый старый" may often sound impolite/offensive.
"Старейший" has a positive connotation (e.g. "старейший музей в городе") and is used with "род" (e.g. "старейший род в Армении").



macdevster said:


> Are there times when *самый* doesn't work with adjectives?


There hardly are. Some may still object to using "самый лучший" (the best).



macdevster said:


> I'm looking for ways to demonstrate *самый* with adjectives with my students.


I'd suggest using these constructions, by the way:
_Кто из твоих/ваших друзей старше/выше/начитаннее... всех?
Кто из (всех) твоих/ваших друзей самый старший/высокий/начитанный... ?_​


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## macdevster

Vovan, thanks so much, especially for the suggestions for how to present the question.  These are high school Russian 2 students reviewing Russian 1 themes (family members, describing people and things) so I'm looking for super simple (but not unnatural) constructions so they can get it in Russian without me having to go into English too much.  

I like your second suggestion, with a couple modifications to make it yet simpler:  
Кто из друзей самый старший/высокий/начитанный... ?
Кто в семье самый...

I appreciate your feedback!!


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## GCRaistlin

_Старший член семьи _means _the oldest family member_ by itself, without the need to add _самый:_


> имеющий большее количество лет по сравнению с кем-либо, более старый или самый старый по возрасту среди кого-либо


старший — Викисловарь
So _самый старший _is a kind of tautology_, _as well as _самый лучший._

We don't use _самый старый _or _старейший _with respect to family members. In other cases _старейший_ may be considered as a synonym for _самый старый _but with some limitations._ Старейший _is mostly about the age while _самый старый_ is also about the condition:
_Дербент - старейший город России.
Это самая старая кляча (лошадь), которую я когда-либо видел._


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## macdevster

Thanks, GCRaistlin.  Hmmm.  I think I'll have to focus on other more common adjectives for using _самый. _The most friendly.  The most funny.  The most interesting.  The most smart.  The most fun-loving.  The most boring.  The most energetic.  I guess I'll just dodge (or point out the exception for) "the oldest" when going over this.


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## Vovan

GCRaistlin said:


> _самый старший _is a kind of tautology


Only in titles, as in _старший член семьи_, _старший помощник_, etc.


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## GCRaistlin

Vovan said:


> Only in titles


Where else do we use _старший?_


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## Vovan

*GCR*, when we compare which person in a group is the oldest, for example.
_Я среди них (всех) был самый старший.
Я был самый старший в классе._​


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## GCRaistlin

_Самый _is still unnecessary here:
_Я среди них был старший.
Я был старшим в классе._


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## Vovan

*GCR*, would you take out "самому" in the following sentence, too?
_Самому старшему участнику конкурса уже перевалило за двадцать._​


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## GCRaistlin

Yes I would:
_Старшему участнику конкурса уже перевалило за двадцать._
The sense of the sentence is still clear: there is only one _старший участник конкурса._


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## Vovan

GCRaistlin said:


> The sense of the sentence is still clear: there is only one _старший участник конкурса._


I disagree completely!
As does Google Search.

However, we could make up a new sentence:
_Я обратился к старшему участнику конкурса за советом._​Does "старший участник" mean here the same as it did in the previous sentence (=the oldest participant)?


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## GCRaistlin

You disagree with what? Is there some other _старший участник конкурса, _as there surely is some other _высокий_, _весёлый, ловкий _etc.?



Vovan said:


> _Я обратился к старшему участнику конкурса за советом._Does "старший участник" mean here the same as it did in the previous sentence (=the oldest participant)?


It does. Let's assume that there were 3 participants (besides you). All of them are older than you. You asked _старший участник конкурса _for an advice. Who did you ask? Of course the oldest one: none of other 2 participants is _старший участник конкурса _as it's an objective concept, not relative to you.

But if you'd say _Я обратился к старшему товарищу за советом_ it'd be unclear who did you ask. Here we can use _самый_ to make it clear.


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## Vovan

GCRaistlin said:


> Here we can use _самый_ to make it clear.


We can use it whenever we feel like doing so.
All that talk about "pleonasm" in regard to "лучший", "старший", etc. is old-fashioned and groundless!


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## GCRaistlin

Surely _you_ can use whatever you like. But we're talking about some different thing here.

On your link:


> Но так вышло, что грамматику победила реальная действительность. У слова _лучший_ сформировалось новое микрозначение — ‘качественный’, ‘находящийся в ряду избранных’.


This thesis is a subject to prove. I never use _лучший_ in this sense. Do you? Can you give an example? Besides that we're discussing _самый старший, _not _самый лучший._

If a word can be dropped without loss to the sense of the phrase it should be dropped. _Самый_ adds nothing to the sense of _лучший _and _старший_ (with the exception I mentioned above).


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## Sobakus

GCRaistlin said:


> Where else do we use _старший?_





GCRaistlin said:


> Is there some other _старший участник конкурса, _as there surely is some other _высокий_, _весёлый, ловкий _etc.?


-У тебя есть старший брат?
-У меня целых два старших брата: Коля и Саша.
-И кто старший?
-Что, кто сегодня за старшего? 
-Да нет, кто старший брат?
-Я же говорю - оба старшие братья! Но Коля самый старший из двух.

I've noticed that the majority of your contributions to the forum consist of exactly this type of prescriptivist, generalising and subtlety-blind statements. Like most research-and-evidence-free grammar prescriptivism out there, it's rooted in the prescriptivist's ability to logically explain a linguistic fact - when they're unable to do so, the linguistic fact is proclaimed to be wrong. Yet this has me wondering: has the prescriptivist considered the other possibility - that being unable to explain something is not indicative of a problem with the something itself, but rather with the explainer?


GCRaistlin said:


> I never use _лучший_ in this sense. Do you? Can you give an example?


лучшие фильмы - Google Search


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## GCRaistlin

Your example is exactly what I mentioned as an exception - _старший брат _is a relative concept. _Старший участник, старший член семьи, старший сын _aren't.



Sobakus said:


> лучшие фильмы - Google Search


I asked for an example for _лучший_ (single) as a synonym to _качественный.
_
As for your question - can you PM me in Russian? If you really want of course.


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## Sobakus

GCRaistlin said:


> Your example is exactly what I mentioned as an exception - _старший брат _is a relative concept. _Старший участник, старший член семьи, старший сын _aren't.


As has been mentioned already, those are "titles". "Самый" combines with the relative meaning and serves to disambiguate, thus "старший в классе" normally means "за главного в классе" and "самый старший в классе" means "the oldest".


> I asked for an example for _лучший_ (single) as a synonym to _качественный._


You're arguing that самый старший and самый лучший are wrong because there can be no more than one старший or лучший. I'm giving you examples demonstrating that there can be more than one. Are you now saying that there can be no more than one (in the singular) unless there's more than one (in the plural)? "Самый лучший фильм из 10 лучших фильмов" = "Самый качественный фильм из 10 качественных фильмов." "Лучший фильм из 10 лучших фильмов" - вот где она, настоящая тавтология, точно как в примере с братьями.

Вы, по факту, спорите против того, что у обсуждаемых слов есть другие значения кроме того узкого значения, о котором вы думаете. Уже даже то, что эти слова можно конкретизировать с помощью "самый" должно подсказывать, что конкретизируется здесь значение более широкое.


> As for your question - can you PM me in Russian? If you really want of course.


I'd prefer if my words were considered instead of being argued about.


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## Vovan

GCRaistlin said:


> Your example is exactly what I mentioned as an exception - _*старший брат* _is a relative concept. _Старший участник, старший член семьи, *старший сын* _aren't.


I hope you're not being serious. What is the difference between "старший сын" and "старший брат"?
_Многие поклонники звездной семьи переживали, что Рудковской не удастся сохранить хорошие отношения со старшими сыновьями. (Интернет.)
17 декабря 1778 года Карло с двумя старшими сыновьями разместился на борту судна, уходившего из Аяччо к берегам Франции. (Интернет.)_​


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## GCRaistlin

Sobakus said:


> thus "старший в классе" normally means "за главного в классе" and "самый старший в классе" means "the oldest"


I disagree. Who is _главный в классе_ at all_? _Учитель? Или главный хулиган?



Sobakus said:


> You're arguing that самый старший and самый лучший are wrong because there can be no more than one старший or лучший.


I didn't say it's wrong. I said it's superfluous. It's _better_ not to use superfluous words.



Sobakus said:


> I'm giving you examples demonstrating that there can be more than one. Are you now saying that there can be no more than one (in the singular) unless there's more than one (in the plural)?


_Лучший_ is always the one, so it makes no sense to add _самый. _Depending on the criteria you may select a few objects that are better than others - _лучшие. _The best one of them (and therefore of the initial quantity) is still _лучший.
_


Sobakus said:


> I'd prefer if my words were considered instead of being argued about.


As you wish. It'd take too much time for me to translate. Anyway it is off-topic here.



Vovan said:


> What is the difference between "старший сын" and "старший брат"?


_Старший сын_ (single!) = the oldest son_.
Старший брат = _any of the brothers who is older.


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## Vovan

GCRaistlin said:


> _Лучший_ is always the one, so it makes no sense to add _самый. _Depending on the criteria you may select a few objects that are better than others - _лучшие. _The best one of them (and therefore of the initial quantity) is still _лучший._


What does "лучший из лучших" mean?
And what does "лучшая жизнь" mean? Isn't it "*a better* life"?


GCRaistlin said:


> _Старший сын_ (single!) = the oldest son_.
> Старший брат = _any of the brothers who is older.


These are cultural stereotypes.
Have a look at this:


> Nor can *a younger son* be above *an older son*. It is obvious that the culture which produced this kind of myth definitely places the older son, particularly the eldest son, above younger sons.


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## GCRaistlin

Vovan said:


> What does "лучший из лучших" mean?


Formally _лучший из лучших = самый лучший = лучший_
But to me _лучший из лучших _is acceptable because of its expression_ - _dropping _из лучших_ kills it. Dropping _самый_ kills nothing as _самый лучший_ is almost neutral.



Vovan said:


> And what does "лучшая жизнь" mean? Isn't it "*a better* life"?


It is. How does it regard our question?



Vovan said:


> These are cultural stereotypes.


Think of their sources.



> Nor can *a younger son* be above *an older son*. It is obvious that the culture which produced this kind of myth definitely places the older son, particularly the eldest son, above younger sons.


We're still talking about Russian, aren't we?
Besides that it is *not* the myth (at my experience). The first child (and especially the first son) gets more than the following ones. So - yes, he is above younger sons. This may be unfair - but that's life.


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## Vovan

GCRaistlin said:


> We're still talking about Russian, aren't we?


Yes, shall I translate the sentence into Russian?
"Как и младший сын не может быть выше старшего сына".
If we follow your definition (старший сын = the oldest son) and translate the sentence back, the meaning will change.


GCRaistlin said:


> And what does "лучшая жизнь" mean? Isn't it "*a better* life"?
> 
> 
> 
> It is. How does it regard our question?
Click to expand...

Isn't it also "the best life"? (As you said, "formally _лучший из лучших = самый лучший = лучший_".)
How would you translate into Russian:
_I deserve a better life.
I deserve the best life._​


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## GCRaistlin

Okay I see what you mean. Here we have another meaning of _старший _(the comparative degree):


> _устар. сравн. ст. к прил._ старый


старший — Викисловарь
We can hardly mix it up with the superlative degree - and all we discussed above is definitely the superlative degree. It is quite another matter._ Самый_ won't help us here.



Vovan said:


> Isn't it also "the best life"?


I don't understand what "the best life" is. Do you have any Russian example of _лучшая жизнь _with this meaning?

В принципе, иногда возможна некоторая неоднозначность со словом _лучший:
- Я купил "Жигули". - А я купил лучшую машину. _(лучшую в мире или ту, что лучше "Жигулей"?)
Но и это мне кажется слегка надуманным, так как без дальнейшего объяснения вторая фраза (в значении "лучшую в мире") выглядит странно (в варианте _А я купил *самую* лучшую машину_ - тоже), а из объяснения сразу станет ясно, какая степень имеется в виду.


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## Vovan

> Here we have another meaning of _старший _(the comparative degree):
> 
> 
> 
> _устар. сравн. ст. к прил._ старый
Click to expand...

Why? Your first quote from Wiktionary is well applicable to the last example ("младший сын не должен быть выше старшего сына"):


> *имеющий большее количество лет по сравнению с кем-либо, более старый* или *самый старый по возрасту среди кого-либо*





GCRaistlin said:


> Do you have any Russian example of _лучшая жизнь _with this meaning?


Лучшая (зд.) = наилучшая. Это когда лучшей не придумаешь!
Найти проще всего, если загуглить "самая лучшая жизнь".
_Он, как большинство, думал смолоду, что холостая жизнь есть самая лучшая жизнь не только потому, что она удобна для разгула... (Источник.)_​


GCRaistlin said:


> В принципе, иногда возможна некоторая неоднозначность со словом лучший:


Хорошо, что вы это признаете!


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## GCRaistlin

Vovan said:


> Why? Your first quote from Wiktionary is well applicable to the last example ("младший сын не должен быть выше старшего сына"):


No. Here we have the comparative degree, as in the English variant. _Более старый _- it's about _старший товарищ (= более старый товарищ)._



Vovan said:


> Он, как большинство, думал смолоду, что холостая жизнь есть самая лучшая жизнь не только потому, что она удобна для разгула...


So what? Drop _самая_ off - the sense won't change. It's just superfluous here.
(But I confirm it's what I asked for).



Vovan said:


> Хорошо, что вы это признаете!


Теоретически признаю, а практически - живого примера, где в контексте будет неоднозначность (то есть когда убирание слова _самый_ невозможно без изменения или хотя бы "замутнения" смысла), найти/придумать не могу. Может, у вас получится.


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## jasio

Sobakus said:


> -Я же говорю - оба старшие братья! Но Коля самый старший *из двух*.


Just curious... does it indeed sound natural? As far as I can remember my Russian classes years ago, "самый" is used to create a superlative degree, isn't it? So I would rather expect:

Коля старший из двух. (Kola is older of the two [of them])

Коля самый старший из нас трех. (Kola is the oldest of the three of us).
or simply:

Коля самый старший (Kola is the oldest)


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## Awwal12

jasio said:


> Just curious... does it indeed sound natural?


It doesn't sound well, but it MAY occur in the described context.
"Коля старший из двух" doesn't sound any better, in fact.
Also don't forget the variant "Старше всех Коля"/"Коля старше всех".


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## jasio

Awwal12 said:


> It doesn't sound well, but it MAY occur in the described context.
> "Коля старший из двух" doesn't sound any better, in fact.
> Also don't forget the variant "Старше всех Коля"/"Коля старше всех".


Thank you.


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## GCRaistlin

jasio said:


> Коля старший из двух. (Kola is older of the two [of them])



_Коля старший из двух = Коля самый старший из двух = Kolya is oldest of the two _(including himself)


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## Sobakus

jasio said:


> Just curious... does it indeed sound natural? As far as I can remember my Russian classes years ago, "самый" is used to create a superlative degree, isn't it? So I would rather expect:
> 
> Коля старший из двух. (Kola is older of the two [of them])
> 
> Коля самый старший из нас трех. (Kola is the oldest of the three of us).
> or simply:
> 
> Коля самый старший (Kola is the oldest)


I cannot think of a context where the singular _старший_ would mean "older" but not "the oldest" - so I don't think the distinction you're trying to make can be made at all. Besides, "the oldest of the two" is perfectly correct in English as well even if some object to it on logical/prescriptivist grounds.


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## jasio

GCRaistlin said:


> _Коля старший из двух = Коля самый старший из двух = Kolya is oldest of the two _(including himself)





Sobakus said:


> I cannot think of a context where the singular _старший_ would mean "older" but not "the oldest"


Indeed, my understanding of Russian must have rotten and taken by a false friend I managed to confuse comparative and superlative forms in Russian.  I apologize.



Sobakus said:


> Besides, "the oldest of the two" is perfectly correct in English as well even if some object to it on logical/prescriptivist grounds.


Logically it's correct (formally there can also be the oldest of the one ), but my point is, if such form would actually be used and considered correct - except for special contexts, like  ironic, humorous etc. For me in case of just two objects comparative degree sounds much more natural than superlative. And not only for me: Older/oldest [of two], if English was referred to. That's why I posted my question in the first place.


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## Sobakus

jasio said:


> Indeed, my understanding of Russian must have rotten and taken by a false friend I managed to confuse comparative and superlative forms in Russian.  I apologize.


Well, as discussed it can be either, so no big deal about being confused which one it is. It's just that in the singular, drawing such a distinction seems to be impossible.


> Logically it's correct (formally there can also be the oldest of the one ), but my point is, if such form would actually be used and considered correct - except for special contexts, like  ironic, humorous etc. For me in case of just two objects comparative degree sounds much more natural than superlative. And not only for me: Older/oldest [of two], if English was referred to. That's why I posted my question in the first place.


The very post that you link to says that it's actually used and considered correct by anyone who hasn't been prescriptively taught that it isn't.


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## jasio

Sobakus said:


> The very post that you link to says that it's actually used and considered correct by anyone who hasn't been prescriptively taught that it isn't.


It's about whether this form is correct in the light of the known rules of English grammar. Actually, I do not think anyone from my social and proffessional circles would use it whether in English or in Polish, without asking for any rules. All of them would say "older" for two sons and "oldest" for three or more. So to an extent this form resembles me my friend, who used to say 'this is my last wife' introducing his only spouse. 

Anyways, I take your response as a declaration that in Russian it's quite ok.


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