# between vs. among



## Alfry

Quanto leggo fra le righe mi rimanda ad una persona allegra....
I'd say
what I'm reading between/among the lines reminds me of a person...

which is better here...among or between?


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## giocc

Ciao Alfry,
per quanto ne so, "among" si usa per indicare una cosa in un gruppo di altre (in qualche modo) omogenee, mentre "between" significa "in mezzo" ad altre cose.
Ad esempio (ma chiedo agli amici madrelingua se trovano corrette queste frasi):
you could ask anyone among my colleagues;
my mother-in-law always comes between me and my wife when we argue.
Ciao


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## Alfry

Io sapevo che between è tra due mentre among è tra molti (più di due).
Ecco perchè ero in dubbio su between the lines (sottinteso, tra le due linee) e among the lines (sottinteso, tra tutte le linee, in questo caso il numero è incerto).
é possibile che si dica "to read between the lines" per intendere "leggere tra le righe" esattamente come lo useremmo noi per intendere "interpretare cosa c'è scritto, torvarne il significato".

Non vorrei andare troppo off topic!!!
pregherei un mod di splittarlo qualora questo post meritasse uno spazio tutto suo  
grazie


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## lsp

Alfry said:
			
		

> Io sapevo che between è tra due mentre among è tra molti (più di due).
> Ecco perchè ero in dubbio su between the lines (sottinteso, tra le due linee) e among the lines (sottinteso, tra tutte le linee, in questo caso il numero è incerto).
> é possibile che si dica "to read between the lines" per intendere "leggere tra le righe" esattamente come lo useremmo noi per intendere "interpretare cosa c'è scritto, torvarne il significato".


Exactly. The expression in English is "to read between the lines," no matter how many lines. Also right, between suggests 2, among suggests more than 2.


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## Alfry

lsp said:
			
		

> Exactly. The expression in English is "to read between the lines," no matter how many lines. Also right, between suggests 2, among suggests more than 2.


perfect, that is exactly what I was looking for
grazie lsp


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## panjandrum

To "read between the lines" is a common idiom.
It means that there is some additional meaning behind what is written or said.
Reading between the lines is to understand and explain that additional meaning.

This could be something as simple as very formal language being used in what used to be a very informal relationship - no matter what the words say, reading between the lines someone is trying to make this less friendly, less personal.


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## lsp

panjandrum said:
			
		

> To "read between the lines" is a common idiom.
> It means that there is some additional meaning behind what is written or said.
> Reading between the lines is to understand and explain that additional meaning.
> 
> This could be something as simple as very formal language being used in what used to be a very informal relationship - no matter what the words say, reading between the lines someone is trying to make this less friendly, less personal.


Yes, exactly as Alfry said.


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## carrickp

"Between the lines" is indeed a common idiom. However, in purely correct grammar, "between" refers to two things and "among" to more than two:

"Just between you and me, I think her morals are a bit loose."

"Michele, Gianni and I went to the movie, but among us we didn't have enough cash for even one ticket."

"There is a lovely old oak tree standing between Giovanna's house and mine."

"There are lovely old oak trees scattered among the houses on my block."


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## giocc

Well, it really looks like my memory has really deceived me... I still can't figure out where I got that idea from... 
Thanks to you all for having it wiped out 
Ciao


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## Elisa68

giocc said:
			
		

> Well, it really looks like my memory has really deceived me... I still can't figure out where I got that idea from...
> Thanks to you all for having it wiped out
> Ciao


 
I think you are right. I had the same doubt and the Merriam-Webster Dictionary, under "between" gives this explanation http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=between.

But I am still puzzled!


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## panjandrum

In this case "... reading between the lines ...", the idiom, is perfectly grammatically correct.

Early in the days of sending secret messages people would write using substances that could not be seen on plain paper. For example, lemon juice is normally transparent on paper, but when heated (say over a candle flame) it becomes discolored. 

The author of the message would write a very ordinary letter in ink and then write the secret message in the spaces in between. The recipient would then have to treat the letter and read between each pair of lines of the letter to get to the real message.


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## lsp

It's technically one or the other: 
_among_ for more than 2 (among friends)
_between_ for 2 (between the Democrats and the Republicans)


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## CPA

In this context, "comparison *between*" certainly sounds better and it gets about seven million more google hits than "comparison among".


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## Chris Corbyn

Sometimes you can use "between" instead of "among", but you can't use "among" in place of between.

It's difficult to explain.  You use "between" when there's some external involvement, but with "among" there's an implication that everything involved is part of the same collection.  For example:

I can choose between these 5 cars. (I'm not one of the cars).
He was was speaking among friends. (He is one of the friends).
I can make a comparison between this and that. (I'm neither this nor that).
She enjoys being among the crowd. (She is part of the crowd).
Among all of the options available, only one or two were safe. (All of the options belong to the same group).

NOTE: This is just what I was able to deduce by thinking about it.  It's not based on pure fact.


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## effeundici

IO sapevo che _among _si usa quando è "uno contro tutti".

Esempio: _Who is the best among us?_


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## Blackman

Nello specifico, sembra suonare meglio _between,_ anche a me,  ma non significa necessariamente che sia corretto. Ci vuole un nativo inglese.


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## nm83

Ariel66 said:


> Salve a tutti,
> pongo questo quesito:
> 
> _The use of English to communicate encourages the comparison between (oppure among?) different school systems._
> 
> Devo usare among?
> Oppure between?
> 
> Propenderei per between, in quanto in genere un paragone si fa fra due elementi. Oppure devo usare among?



"the comparison" sounds strange used together with between or among

I would say: *The comparison of*, or, without "the", simply, *comparison amongst*

The use of English to communicate encourages the comparison of different school systems.

The use of English to communicate encourages comparison amongst different school systems. (Comparison of what though?)


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## Blackman

nm83 said:


> "the comparison" sounds strange used together with between or among
> 
> I would say: *The comparison of*, or, without "the", simply, *comparison amongst*
> 
> The use of English to communicate encourages the comparison of different school systems.
> 
> The use of English to communicate encourages comparison amongst different school systems. (Comparison of what though?)


 

Nice shot!


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## King Crimson

Contrary to received wisdom, it is not true that between is used when two items are involved and among when they are more than two (at least, according to the American Heritage Dictionary):

USAGE NOTE: According to a widely repeated but unjustified tradition, "between is used for two, and among for more than two." It is true that between is the only choice when exactly two entities are specified: the choice between (not among) good and evil, the rivalry between (not among) Great Britain and France. When more than two entities are involved, however, or when the number of entities is unspecified, the choice of one or the other word depends on the intended sense. Between is used when the entities are considered as distinct individuals; among, when they are considered as a mass or collectivity. Thus in the sentence The bomb landed between the houses, the houses are seen as points that define the boundaries of the area of impact (so that we presume that none of the individual houses was hit). In The bomb landed among the houses, the area of impact is considered to be the general location of the houses, taken together (in which case it is left open whether any houses were hit). By the same token, we may speak of a series of wars between the Greek cities, which suggests that each city was an independent belligerent, or of a series of wars among the Greek cities, which allows as well the possibility that the belligerents were shifting alliances of cities. For this reason, among is most appropriate to indicate inclusion in a group: She is among the best of our young sculptors. There is a spy among you (this last is arguably appropriate even when there are only two addressees; certainly between would be impossible). Between is the preferred choice when the entities are seen as determining the limits or endpoints of a range: The plane went down somewhere between Quito, Lima, and La Paz. The truck driver had obviously been drinking between stops.

Hope it helps...


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## Ariel66

Thank you King Crimson,
I understand most  of the examples, not all of them anyway. 


For Blackman, 
Non perchè io voglia contraddirti, però l'inglese americano ha delle differenze. Può darsi che quella spiegazione sia valida solo per la varietà americana. Aspetto ancora di verificare. Comunque ho controllato su Google, e sembra che ambedue  le versioni: Comparison among e comparison between siano usate.  Comunque "comparison of" taglia la testa al toro.


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## Alxmrphi

I would go into a bigger explanation of among/between but I don't have time now.
My suggestion is to use neither and instead use 'of' (the comparison of...) like nm83 suggested.

@ Ariel, what is being talking about, I am interested in the wider context? Using English to do what exactly? Something can be done which then means a comparison can be made between school, but what would be done? You can't compare _communication_, so I just wondered what it meant?


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## Ariel66

@alxmrphy

I was talking about the use of English language, and I was talking about the possibility to compare diffferent school systems.  When teachers from different countries meet in an international course, it is inevitable to discuss our school systems.


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## Alxmrphi

Ah, that makes sense, without that context it seemd very formal, like tests were done to show specific results, but if it's a bunch of teachers comparing their schools and how they work, then I see what you mean now.


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## nm83

The phrase is a little vague/awkward.
If I'm understanding the context of the statement correctly, maybe it would be best to say:

In an international course, the use of English to communicate gives teachers from different countries the opportunity to compare the school systems of their own countries with those of others.

or

In an international course, teachers from different countries can use English to compare the differences amongst school systems in their individual countries.


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## Lazzini

> However, in purely correct grammar, "between" refers to two things and "among" to more than two:


 
This old thread was referred to in one started today, and I followed the link.

The statement above seems dubious to me. Suppose 10 of us go out collecting mushrooms. We meet afterwards ... Someone asks us: "How many did you collect?" - "Oh, about 10 kilos between us". 

Would any English speaker say "10 kilos among us"? 

I think it's a bit more complicated than 2 or more than 2 (although at the moment I wouldn't want anyone to ask me to unravel the matter).


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## marcolettici

I don't see an inconsistency in grammar in "*between* the lines" referring to just two things. One is always reading between any two given lines at a given time.  On a page with lines A, B, C, and D I read first between lines A and B, then between lines B and C, and last between lines C and D.


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## piedina

Salve,
mi trovo di fronte ad un caso particolare e non so bene se sia giusto utilizzare between o among:

devo scrivere "...the reactions *between* the brazes and the base metals..." oppure ""...the reactions *among* the brazes and the base metals...".

In ogni gruppo (brazes or metals) abbiamo vari elementi, quindi applicando la regola classica userei "among". Peró la reazione avviene sempre tra ogni singola lega brasante (braze) e un metallo (base metals), quindi penserei a "between". Suggerimenti? Spero di essere stata chiara...
Tante grazie!


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## Giorgio Spizzi

Ciao, pi.
Se ho capito bene ci vuole "between". D'altra parte se hai un viale alberato su entrambi i lati e tu viaggi nel mezzo, anche se gli alberi sono 10.000 resta il fatto che le "entità" sono sempre due: between.
Cari saluti.
GS


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## Einstein

Giorgio Spizzi said:


> Se ho capito bene ci vuole "between".



L'idea che si dice _between_ per 2 e _among_ per >2 è una regola semplice che copre molti casi, ma non esprime la vera differenza concettuale. Di solito _between_ esprime un rapporto fra due (o più) cose, mentre _among_ esprime solo una collocazione.
_I watched the sunset between the trees._ Ogni raggio passa fra due alberi; il sole non tramonta fisicamente in mezzo agli alberi.
_They studied the differences between their educational systems_. Direi _between_ in ogni caso perché le differenze non sono delle cose sparse in mezzo al gruppo; esprimono un rapporto fra i suoi elementi.

PS un buon esempio di Lazzini:


> Suppose 10 of us go out collecting mushrooms. We meet afterwards ... Someone asks us: "How many did you collect?" - "Oh, about 10 kilos between us".
> Would any English speaker say "10 kilos among us"?


Well, I certainly wouldn't! We're not standing in a group with the mushrooms scattered among us on the ground. We're talking about the total, which expresses a relationship (the sum) between us.


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## NagiMahori

I re-exhume this post to clarifie this doubt I posed in another thread:

_*Between* the tears I can say I still love you, always._
_*Among* the tears I can say I still love you, always.

_Following the great explanations of King Crimson (I definetely like your nick. ) and Chris,
I am pushed to prefer Among, that implies more emotional involvement_.
_Am I right?
We can assume the tears are from a stranger source then the subject so _*Between*_ would become preferable.
Am I right?

Thank you


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## rrose17

To me they're not the same exactly. Between the tears gives me the impression of someone crying and then stopping and then crying again. In between these times I can say I still love you. Among the tears sounds like _while_ crying I can say I still love you. It's not a world apart but there's a nuance here. Both could also be the other person who's doing the crying.


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## Alessandrino

Neither of them, I'd say. I can'tell how much I love someone between tears and laughter, for instance, but I don't think I can tell something between tears (without the article).

EDIT: agree with rrose17. I think NagiMahori's sentences are a literal translation of _tra le lacrime_, which doesn't work in English.


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## NagiMahori

*alessandrino*


> Neither of them, I'd say. I can'tell how much I love someone between tears and laughter, for instance, but I don't think I can tell something between tears (without the article).


*nagi*


> That's because I didn't bring in the context sorry



*alessandrino*


> EDIT: agree with rrose17. I think NagiMahori's sentences are a literal translation of _tra le lacrime_, which doesn't work in English.


*nagi*


> NagiMahori's sentences are rrose17's  (except for the Among at the place of Between)



For rrose17.

Your explanation is very beautifull and so close to your feelings; for mine, I can say _love_ while crying (involved in the act of), for they are part of life and love.


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## Einstein

"Tra le lacrime": a literary translation might be "amid tears".


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## NagiMahori

Einstein said:


> "Tra le lacrime": a literary translation might be "amid tears".



Che bello!!


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## Alessandrino

NagiMahori said:


> NagiMahori's sentences are rrose17's  (except for the Among at the place of Between)
> 
> For rrose17.
> 
> Your explanation is very beautifull and so close to your feelings; for mine, I can say _love_ while crying (involved in the act of), for they are part of life and love.


Ok I got it! However, what I want to say is that we are talking of two different things.
Rrose17 says that "_Between the tears gives me the impression of someone crying and then stopping and then crying again_". I agree, and it seems to me that it's a bit different from the Italin _dire qualcosa tra/in le lacrime_.


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## NagiMahori

Alessandrino said:


> Ok I got it! However, what I want to say is that we are talking of two different things.
> Rrose17 says that "_Between the tears gives me the impression of someone crying and then stopping and then crying again_". I agree, and it seems to me that it's a bit different from the Italin _dire qualcosa tra/in le lacrime_.


.


Here the full context :




Correre said:


> Hi!
> I have translated 'ancora e sempre' as 'still now and forever more'. Is that right?
> I found it in a text where a girl and her partner have had a difficult patch. She says: 'pur tra le lacrime posso dire che ancora e sempre credo nel suo amore'.
> Thank you!


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## BristolGirl

Hi - I think it translates 'Although I'm crying / despite my tears'


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## DottorS

Ciao a tutti,
in saggio storico sul Protestantesimo ho trovato la seguente frase:


> Melanchthon, even more than Luther in his later life, had been party to two decades of intense religious rivalries *between and among* Catholics and Protestants in Germany.


Secondo la mia logica ho inteso:
_Melantone, anche più del Lutero degli ultimi anni, era stato coinvolto in venti anni di intense rivalità religiose *tra* Protestanti e Cattolici e *tra gruppi interni alle stesse confessioni*._
E' questo il senso della frase? Non saprei quale altro senso dare ad *among*, se non quello di contrasto *all'interno dei rispettivi gruppi*. Qualcuno può confermare o correggere?


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## rrose17

DottorS said:


> _Melantone, anche più del Lutero degli ultimi anni, era stato coinvolto in venti anni di intense rivalità religiose *tra* Protestanti e Cattolici e *tra gruppi interni alle stesse confessioni*._
> E' questo il senso della frase?


Direi di si.


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## DottorS

rrose17 said:


> Direi di si.



Grazie


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## Rival

DottorS said:


> Melanchthon, even more than Luther in his later life, had been party to two decades of intense religious rivalries *between and among* Catholics and Protestants in Germany.



In this case, "between" refers to the 'two-group' rivalry between Catholics and Protestants, while "among" refers to the 'multi-group' rivalries inside each confession.
.


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## King Crimson

Tornando alla traduzione, forse si potrebbe anche dire, in modo più sintetico ..._due decenni di intensi conflitti inter e intra religiosi tra Cattolici e Protestanti_...


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## uissi

lsp said:


> Exactly. The expression in English is "to read between the lines," no matter how many lines. Also right, between suggests 2, among suggests more than 2.



there is only two lines you can read between in the one time! ...could that be the reason


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## Einstein

uissi said:


> There are only two lines you can read between at a time! ...could that be the reason?


Yes, that's exactly the reason. It was already said in post #26.


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## uissi

Einstein said:


> Yes, that's exactly the reason. It was already said in post #26.



I hadn't realised I had jumped in the middle of the thread ... I hope to learn quickly! Thank you *Einstein*!


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## Ceci83

Chris Corbyn said:


> Sometimes you can use "between" instead of "among", but you can't use "among" in place of between.
> 
> It's difficult to explain.  You use "between" when there's some external involvement, but with "among" there's an implication that everything involved is part of the same collection.  For example:
> 
> I can choose between these 5 cars. (I'm not one of the cars).
> He was was speaking among friends. (He is one of the friends).
> I can make a comparison between this and that. (I'm neither this nor that).
> She enjoys being among the crowd. (She is part of the crowd).
> Among all of the options available, only one or two were safe. (All of the options belong to the same group).
> 
> NOTE: This is just what I was able to deduce by thinking about it.  It's not based on pure fact.



Hi everybody 
I have a doubt about Chris' post...
I'm trying to translate a poem from Italian to English in which it is said "(io) sono qui tra le nostre vite"; the poet is addressing to a woman so it is implied that the lives he is talking about are just two.
Can't I use "among" instead of "between" to translate the sentence (I mean "among our lives" and not "between our lives")?


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## marcolettici

Neither option sounds good to me in this context.  "I am here amid/amidst our lives," or possibly "Here I am amid/amidst  our lives." (I think amidst sounds better.)  If you mean bouncing back and forth, in neither place (life), then "between" _could_ work, as  "I am between jobs."  Without more context it's hard to say what would best render the poet's meaning.


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## rrose17

I agree with Marco but was thinking that "_in_ between" might work here.
_"I am here, in between our (two) lives."_


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## Ceci83

marcolettici said:


> Neither option sounds good to me in this context.  "I am here amid/amidst our lives," or possibly "Here I am amid/amidst  our lives." (I think amidst sounds better.)  If you mean bouncing back and forth, in neither place (life), then "between" _could_ work, as  "I am between jobs."  Without more context it's hard to say what would best render the poet's meaning.





rrose17 said:


> I agree with Marco but was thinking that "_in_ between" might work here.
> _"I am here, in between our (two) lives."_



Thank you both. 
In the original poem,  the author means that he is divided between his and his lover's life, so he is waiting for her in an imaginary space in the midst of their lives. 
Anyway,  is _amidst_ used both in Am.English and Brit.English? I couldn't find it on WR. And what about using "amongst"?


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## marcolettici

In this case, then, I think "between" can work.  Still, it would be good to have the lines before and after to see how it would fit in and convey the intent (both in the original and the translation).  It sounds like he is maybe "in a place between our lives."  Rrose's solution also seems like a good one.


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## Ceci83

My first attempt was 
_"... I'm still waiting here/
amongst our lives,  so far yet so near"
("...e ancora ti aspetto/
tra due vite così lontane così vicine")_
but then I began to ask myself whether among/amongst was really suitable for this sentence (I'm studying poetry translation but,  not being mother language, I can't "feel" whether the usage of some terms is good or not)...
Anyway, probably I'll turn it in "between" because it won't change the rhythm of my translation.


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## CPA

_...and still I wait for you
poised between two lives, so far apart yet so close.

_Eh...


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