# Διωγμένος



## eno2

Hello

<*Διωγμένος* από τον ουρανό αυτός ο άγγελος δεν έπεσε μόνος,
Cast out of heaven, this angel did not fall alone.>
Διωγμένος is not in WR but comes from εκδιώκω, I found.   WR gives banish for εκδιώκω. My question is if <αποβάλλω expel>  and    < εξορίζω banish > are simply interchangeable with εκδιώκω in the meaning of banish, expel, cast out, or not?  For instance: Which verb/participle  would be used preferably for "a banned forum member"/ to ban a forum member?


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## dmtrs

eno2 said:


> Διωγμένος is not in WR but comes from εκδιώκω, I found.



In fact it comes from the plain verb _διώκω _(archaic) or, in spoken Greek _διώχνω _without the preposition _εκ_.
_Διώχνω_ means _to send away_, _to kick out_, _to expel, to shoo_. _Διώκω_ is used in modern Greek with a different meaning: _prosecute_; also: _chase _(which is rather archaic, and _καταδιώκω_, with the same meaning, is more often and, of course, _κυνηγάω/κυνηγώ_).



eno2 said:


> Which verb/participle would be used preferably for "a banned forum member"/ to ban a forum member?



I believe _αποβάλλω_ would be the appropriate verb. The same verb is used when a student is expelled from class or school.



eno2 said:


> <αποβάλλω expel> and < εξορίζω banish > are simply interchangeable with εκδιώκω in the meaning of banish, expel, cast out, or not?



_Εκδιώκω_ indicates a more powerful or violent action than _αποβάλλω_, while _εξορίζω_ is only used for someone who is sent away from one's country.
_Αποβάλλω _also means: 1) miscarry 2) reject (usually some unwanted/not useful/bad habit or a transplant).


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## eno2

My worry was to find the root verb of Διωγμένος= cast out . I always check for root verbs. Wiktionary gave me _Εκδιώκω.  Also: 
Διωγμένος made me think of Diogenes. He was banished... a cast out. Is this a coincidence? _

Well well now that you say it:  I knew the verb   _διώχνω_  in the meaning of chase away. That's not far from 'to banish' but 'to banish' is not one of it's  many meanings given by WR . While  εκδιώκω gives 'to banish' straight away, as the main meaning. So what can I say...
I don't need to learn a new verb (to me) like _διώκω_ for expressing 'chase away' , as there is kinigo and _διώχνω_  . But OK if    _διώκω_ means  prosecute... Can I use  _διώκω_ then instead of 'ασκώ δίωξη'?

Thank you for confirming  _Αποβάλλω _ and the explanation of further meanings.  I will think of _Αποβάλλω _ as banish _εξορίζω_   would be  *to exile* (common root ekso), so that's easy to  learn. as an association.


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## Perseas

eno2 said:


> _Διωγμένος made me think of Diogenes. He was banished... a cast out. Is this a coincidence? _


If you mean that Διογένης and διωγμένος are etymologically related, it isn't the case.
Διογένης comes from "Διός" (genitive of "Ζεύς") and "-γενής" (born of) --> "born of Zeus".


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## dmtrs

You are welcome, eno2.



eno2 said:


> Can I use _διώκω_ then instead of 'ασκώ δίωξη'?



Theoretically you can. (Ασκώ δίωξη is, in fact, a periphrasis for διώκω; literally it means 'I exert the act of prosecuting'.) The legal term is the periphrasis, though. Thus we say:
Το δικαστήριο του άσκησε δίωξη για απάτη. (ΝΟΤ τον [ε]δίωξε).*
Βut:
Του έχει ασκηθεί δίωξη για απάτη. AND Διώκεται για απάτη. 
Η κλοπή διώκεται ποινικά.
(Now that I think of it, I guess the plain verb is more common in its passive form.)

*Αs I mentioned earlier, the verb is archaic. The past tenses [(ε)δίωκα, (ε)δίωξα] are not in common use; neither 'θα διώξω',΄έχω διώξει', ΄είχα διώξει', 'θα έχω διώξει' as they would be confused with the tenses of the newer form 'διώχνω' (with a different meaning), that look exactly the same. Apart from present, only the future continuous ('θα διώκω') can really be used and understood without confusion. Not the same thing with passive voice, though, where all tenses are in common use except the too archaic sounding 'εδιωκόμην΄ and 'εδιώχθην' -the latter has become 'διώχθηκα' despite the same looking form of 'διώχνομαι'. 
There is a distinction in *oral* speech between 'διώκω' and 'διώχνω': in the former ι and ω are pronounced apart, while in the latter they are pronounced as a diphthong (δι-ώ-κω / διώ-χνω).


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## eno2

Thanks. I'll stay away from διώκω (though WR mentions it for 'prosecute'') and also from εκδιώκω, and keep to διώχνω' (chase away) and keep myself to Ασκώ δίωξη/   έχει ασκηθεί δίωξη    /   Διώκεται with the meanings of   prosecute / is been prosecuted/is prosecuted.
  Ασκώ  is exercise, exert (power, authority), and δίωξη  is 'prosecution' and  the legal term for 'to prosecute' is 'Ασκώ δίωξη'. Those passive forms (έχει ασκηθεί δίωξη) are not easy... I took note  of this amazing spin  off from Διωγμένος /εκδιώκω  as I summarized it here...

Thanks to Perseas too.


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## Perseas

eno2 said:


> My question is if <αποβάλλω expel>  and    < εξορίζω banish > are simply interchangeable with εκδιώκω in the meaning of banish, expel, cast out, or not?  For instance: Which verb/participle  would be used preferably for "a banned forum member"/ to ban a forum member?


I agree with dmtrs that "αποβάλλω" seems to be the appropriate verb in this context (or parhaps "αποκλείω").
But in other contexts it seems that the verb "απαγορεύω" and the noun "απαγόρευση" fit better.

For example here:
-to ban nuclear weapons; 
-The dictator banned all newspapers and books that criticized his regime
-a ban on smoking
-The two countries agreed to ban the testing of nuclear weapons


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## eno2

How would you word the 'banned' message under a banned member's Avatar? αποβεβλημένος, ? From αποβάλλω 
We have been talking about the verbs so far. 
But what is the noun corresponding *with  * (a ban) ?
How would you call the ban of forum members by the substantive?  If αποβάλλω is the right verb, it's substantive should be the right noun too. What is it's substantive? 

WR says: for 'a ban' =>




απαγόρευση





απαγόρευση εισόδου


And so



απαγόρευση

is the same as  for some other situations you have cited here. F.i. The ban on smoking.


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## Perseas

eno2 said:


> How would you word the 'banned' message under a banned member's Avatar? αποβεβλημένος, ? From αποβάλλω
> We have been talking about the verbs so far.
> But what is the noun corresponding *with  * (a ban) ?
> How would you call the ban of forum members by the substantive?  If αποβάλλω is the right verb, it's substantive should be the right noun too. What is it's substantive?


The noun of "αποβάλλω" is "αποβολή", but however strange this may sound, even in only Greek forums I've seen "banned".

As I said before, "απαγορεύω" (verb) & "απαγόρευση" (noun) seem in general to translate properly "ban".
banned - Greek translation – Linguee


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## dmtrs

eno2 said:


> If αποβάλλω is the right verb, it's substantive should be the right noun too. What is it's substantive?



The adjective that derives from αποβάλλω is απόβλητος. But it is used only in very 'serious' or 'heavy' situations (απόβλητος από την κοινωνία).
Ιn the case of a ban from a forum I woul not use the same adjective or a related participle (αποβεβλημένος). I would write "η ανάρτηση διαγράφ(τ)ηκε".
Ι΄m crossposting with someone, I'll see what's been posted and I;ll be back if necessary.


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## eno2

Perseas said:


> even in only Greek forums I've seen "banned".


The law of the strongest on Internet: English. 


> As I said before, "απαγορεύω" (verb) & "απαγόρευση" (noun) seem in general to translate properly "ban".
> banned - Greek translation – Linguee


https://www.linguee.com/english-greek/translation/banned.html I'm surely going to memorise that one , prioritarily. 
Coming to think of it, I remember, I knew it, the verb. To forbid.  And also απαγορεύεται. 
With the meaning of 'prohibited' (access etc..)


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## sotos

best translation of "banned" in a forum etc whould be "αποκλεισμένος".


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## eno2

Yes?
There's no doubt the English coined again the most lapidary and  of words (a ban, to ban, banned)  that of course passed into other languages as a loan.
If I have to get my head around the different context related ways to say this in Greek, it's complicated. Fragmented.


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## Perseas

Yes, when speaking for a forum ban, "αποκλείω"/"αποκλεισμένος" are good options. I've already mentioned that option in #7.

"αποκλείω" means "to disqualify", "to bar" someone e.g. from a competition.

As I see, the Greek Wikipedia uses "αποκλεισμός", where the English Wikipedia uses "banning":


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## eno2

Interesting. I should begin to use the Greek Wikpedia. .


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## eno2

> - Fighting is grounds for *expulsion*
> - Οι καυγάδες είναι αιτία για *αποβολή*



Greek subtitle


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## eno2

With   διωγμένοι and     Διώχτηκαν
Αυτή είναι η ιστορία τον Εκπτωτων Άγγελοι *διωγμένοι *από τους ουρανούς ,καταδικασμένοι να ζουν με εμάς τους θνητούς  *Διώχτηκαν* γιατί δεν διάλεξαν  στρατόπεδο (camp, side)  That's the story of the fallen. Angels *cast out *of heaven. Condemned to live their lives alongside us mere mortals, *Banished*, because they failed to take a side.

With εξορίστηκαν
Αυτοί που πήγαν με το σατανά *εξορίστηκαν* στην κόλαση Those who went with satan *were banished *to hell

Διώχτηκαν  from διώχνομαι
εξορίστηκαν from  εξορίζομαι
I suppose εξορίστηκαν and *έχει εξοριστεί *mean the same?


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## dmtrs

eno2 said:


> I suppose εξορίστηκαν and *έχει εξοριστεί *mean the same?



Same verb, different tense.
εξορίστηκαν = they were banished (past - αόριστος)
έχ*ουν* εξοριστεί = they have been banished (present perfect - παρακείμενος)
(έχ*ει *εξοριστεί = he/she/it has been banished - present perfect, 3rd person singular)


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## eno2

Yes I knew it were aorists. I found their passive voice forms and their Κλίση.

I was surprised though to see aorists used instead of παρακείμενος  in those sentences. That's why I brought up έχει εξοριστεί .


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## dmtrs

I think it's been discussed in a thread a while ago.
Aoristos focuses on the *action*, the *fact *that they were banished, some time in the *past*,
while Parakeimenos focuses in the *state *the're *now*, after they've been banished.
Same thing, different perspective.


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## eno2

So, as I'm currently struggle hard with the (use of the) parakeimenos, I could use the Aoristos without going far astray... (?) (I don't think that's a good idea)
In this case of the Fallen Angels, τον Εκπτωτων , it's the state they are in 'now' (In  the story,)


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## dmtrs

In your example you should definitely use Aoristos (διώχτηκαν), because it refers to the reason this action was taken, therefore the action is what matters, not it's results or their current state due to the action.
In general, I'd say Aoristos is more handy in Greek than Parakeimenos.
The former is used for anything that happened in the past, without preconditions (except for the non continuous nature; if continuity, duration or repetition is meant, Paratatikos is the right tense), while the latter is preferred usually when there's something that indicates it should be used -words that call for it, for example, not unlike in English: _since... [από τότε που, απ' όταν...], for... [εδώ και...]_ etc. that imply a 'now' perspective, or when the results of an action-that-happened-in-the-past in the present is what matters. (έ_χω φάει/κοιμηθεί:_ therefore _I'm not hungry/sleepy_ *now*, _έχει μετακινηθεί_ therefore_ it's not here *now*_, _έχει ταχτοποιηθεί_ therefore _there's no need for further action *now*_.


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## Helleno File

More excellent examples of the παρακείμενος - thanks dmtrs.  We will eventually master it!!  A really good one in another thread that helped me get this present focus was: "έχω αργήσει".  Best translated into English with the idiomatic "I'm running late" it suggests I'm late _now_ but I'm trying to catch up and be on time.


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## eno2

I'm only beginning 'to master it'  "έχω αργήσει" in general
< κάλλιο αργά παρά ποτέ. >


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## Helleno File

eno2 said:


> I'm only beginning 'to master it'  "έχω αργήσει" in general
> < κάλλιο αργά παρά ποτέ. >


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## Αγγελος

Mind you, the aorist can always replace the perfect (παρακείμενος) in Greek. The perfect may be more precise or more elegant in some contexts, but if you hesitate between the two, opt for the aorist. And certainly never use the Greek perfect to translate the English present perfect _continuous -- _the Greek equivalent is the present tense, as in έχω δέκα χρόνια στην Αθήνα or δουλεύω ασταμάτητα από χτες το μεσημέρι.


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