# Проводник вертолётов



## Xavier61

Всем привет. I understand "проводник поезда" и "проводник самолёта", "бортпроводник", But I had never seen before "проводник вертолётов". 
Context: "Мельник был приглашён на работу в качестве проводника вертолётов в Испанию, закупившую несколько машин «Ка-32», и переехал в город Аликанте"
Мельник, Николай Николаевич — Википедия
Is that word used in some professional sense? "pilot"? "instructor"? "steward"? else?
Спасибо заранее


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## Rosett

With all evidence, he was guide.


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## Enquiring Mind

In fact, though you can't tell from the word проводник alone, which is vague ("a do-er", "a carry-out-er"  plus many other meanings of проводить/провести, so it's heavily context-dependent) ...


> In 1995, Spanish airline Helicopteros del Sureste approached Melnyk for help with purchase of Soviet-made helicopters. Melnyk used the opportunity to move to Alicante (Spain), where he became contracted as a pilot and instructor specializing in Soviet-designed helicopters with the Helicopteros del Sureste.[11] He trained at least 25 local pilots and also has worked in aerial firefighting. (wikipedia)


This is a good example of how it's not necessarily a good idea to translate a noun by a noun. If we only had проводник to go on in a translation, and it wasn't clear from the context what he actually *did*, I'd say "to work on/in helicopters" or "for helicopter work". There's also a clue in the information in the source: as he was a Soviet test pilot, you'd expect him to have more of a hands-on role with the helicopter firm too. If it comes to the crunch and you have absolutely no other info or clues, "operator" is an equally vague and safe bet, and also heavily context-dependent.


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## Rosett

Apparently, "проводник" in the original Russian text means that Melnyk guided the helicopter flights to Spain. We don't know how many helicopters were purchased and how the delivery (flights) were organized; however, one can suggest that Melnyk was coordinating the activity and participating as a pilot, too. I understand it the way that, in the case if the helicopters were flying together and there was a pilot per helicopter, then Melnyk was leading the group in the air, flying the head of the pack, like Putin guided Siberian cranes.


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## Q-cumber

Xavier61 said:


> Всем привет. I understand "проводник поезда" и "проводник самолёта", "бортпроводник", But I had never seen before "проводник вертолётов".
> Context: "Мельник был приглашён на работу в качестве проводника вертолётов в Испанию, закупившую несколько машин «Ка-32», и переехал в город Аликанте"
> Мельник, Николай Николаевич — Википедия
> Is that word used in some professional sense? "pilot"? "instructor"? "steward"? else?
> Спасибо заранее


In my opinion, the word is misused here. My first association was that the guy was working as a steward on the helicopters, which is obviously not the case. I think the author actually meant "...в качестве *сопровождающего *партии (партию) вертолётов..." .


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## Enquiring Mind

Thanks for clarifying, Rosett and Q. "Guide" (agent noun) would probably be understood as someone who sits in the helicopter pointing out the sights to sightseers on a helicopter tour of a city. As you say, we don't know how the helicopters got from Russia to Spain. If it was like Putin and the cranes (but Melnyk was surely not as manly ) we might have to say something like "lead pilot heading up delivery flights of helicopters" but that would be reading more than what проводник tells us.


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## Awwal12

Q-cumber said:


> My first association was that the guy was working as a steward on the helicopters, which is obviously not the case.


Plus in that case it rather would be (борт)проводник *на* вертолёт*ах*, or (борт)проводник вертолет*а* (as a crew member of some certain helicopter). For a comparison, "стюардесса самолетов" sounds ridiculous, doesn't it?..


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## Q-cumber

Awwal12 said:


> Plus in that case it rather would be (борт)проводник *на* вертолёт*ах*, or (борт)проводник вертолет*а* (as a crew member of some certain helicopter). For a comparison, "стюардесса самолетов" sounds ridiculous, doesn't it?..


True.


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## Q-cumber

Enquiring Mind said:


> Thanks for clarifying, Rosett and Q. "Guide" (agent noun) would probably be understood as someone who sits in the helicopter pointing out the sights to sightseers on a helicopter tour of a city. As you say, we don't know how the helicopters got from Russia to Spain. If it was like Putin and the cranes (but Melnyk was surely not as manly ) we might have to say something like "lead pilot heading up delivery flights of helicopters" but that would be reading more than what проводник tells us.


"Проводник" is usually a person that knows every nook and cranny of some place and who can show a path through it. We need help of a "проводник" to cross a chain of mountains, a swamp area, to find a way through deep taiga forest, to cross a border secretly  , etc.  A city guide can't be called "проводник".


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## Enquiring Mind

Yep, I'd expect to see гид, экскурсовод etc. in that "sightseeing/tourist guide" kind of context. That's why I was explaining how "helicopter guide" would be understood in English, and why it wasn't a good word for проводник here.


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## Vovan

По-видимому, "проводник вертолета" - частный случай "проводника судна" (как и, скажем, "лоцман" - тоже частный случай этого).
Имеется в виду, что профессиональный пилот хорошо знает местность (среду), хорошо в ней ориентируется и "проводит" воздушное судно по ней.

Реальное употребление можно увидеть, например, здесь:
http://советскоезаполярье.рф/biznes/item/1534-poleteli-za-znaniyami


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## Q-cumber

Но откуда Мельнику было хорошо знать местность в Испании? Нелогично.

Был он, вестимо, ответственным за передачу / перегонку вертолётов, а слово использовали некорректно. Кстати, вертолёты перевозили, скорее всего.


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## Vovan

*Q-cumber*, я все же думаю, что flight navigator является соответствием. Ясно, что море - это море, а воздух - это воздух: нельзя эти среды считать идентичными, как и ориентировку в них (воздух, видимо, более динамичная среда, меняющая свои параметры постоянно).
Также я думаю, что контекст здесь вполне может быть пожаротушение с вертолета (пожары усложняют параметры воздушной среды, в смысле).
Но это лишь предположение.


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## Vovan

Q-cumber said:


> Был он, вестимо, ответственным за передачу / перегонку вертолётов, а слово использовали некорректно. Кстати, вертолёты перевозили, скорее всего.


Да, вариант правдоподобен.
Но он все же переехал в Испанию, где выступал инструктором для летчиков.


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## Cheburator

I would never guess what "проводник вертолетов" might mean, unless it is explained in the text. It's a coinage, or maybe misuse, in my opinion. If someone is repsonsible for finding a way to a destination for a helicopter or another aircraft, he or she is called "штурман" (navigator) if he/she is part of the crew, otherwise it's "(авиа)диспетчер" (air-traffic controller)..


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## Rosett

Cheburator said:


> I would never guess what "проводник вертолетов" might mean, unless it is explained in the text. It's a coinage, or maybe misuse, in my opinion. If someone is repsonsible for finding a way to a destination for a helicopter or another aircraft, he or she is called "штурман" (navigator) if he/she is part of the crew, otherwise it's "(авиа)диспетчер" (air-traffic controller)..


The crew may be not trained to navigate solo. A pilot of the leading helicopter would do the job much better. Also, helicopters are not planes, given the speed, altitude and distance, hence the navigation skills and requirements can be rather different.
Anyway, Melnyk's duties seem to be quite exaggerated. "- Штурман, ты карты взял? - А как же, две колоды! - Ладно, по пачке беломора долетим".
"Проводник," apparently, is used in the sense of thar he "провёл вертолеты до Испании", without going much into details. It's either "guided" as if in "guided missile," or "led" as if in "U.S.-led coalition."


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## Particle

He was perhaps a representative of the company, representative of the seller. Толкач (Colloquial)


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## Xavier61

Thanks to all for you help, many interesting ideas. I have been reading some more.  Seems his first assignement in Helicópteros del Sureste was to bring a group of 10 helicopters from Russia to Spain:
 Испания: 10 противопожарных вертолётов Ка-32А11ВС
That's a travel of at least 3400 km (from Moscu to Alicante, more if it is from a further factory). That helicopter can fly 800-850 km non-stop, so they would need 4 or 5 stops  for refuelling throuhg Europe before they arrive to Alicante. зкипаж:1-3 чел. 1 пилот, 1 штурман и 1 радисть.. Maybe "проводник" is used in the sense "leader" or "guide", "main navegator of a fleet of helicopters". I know that he kept leading the fleet in some serious forest fires that ravaged Eastern Spain in those years and was awarded a medal by the King of Spain.
Maybe that word in that context can be understood 2 ways:
-general meaning: "somebody who in some indefinite sense works with helicopters"
-specialized meaning: "leader or guide of a fleet".
 Are there other options in Russian for designating the civilian commander of a civilian helicopter fleet?


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## Q-cumber

> Are there other options in Russian for designating the civilian commander of a civilian helicopter fleet?


Ведущий группы вертолётов (пилот ведущего вертолёта группы), старший (пилот) группы вертолётов, командир группы вертолётов.,,

"Проводник" isn't the right opinion whatsoever, since it takes a discussion to recognize its meaning in the context.


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## Rosett

Q-cumber said:


> Ведущий группы вертолётов (пилот ведущего вертолёта группы), старший (пилот) группы вертолётов, командир группы вертолётов.,,
> 
> "Проводник" isn't the right opinion whatsoever, since it takes a discussion to recognize its meaning in the context.


"Ведущий" is a one-time role assigned for the current mission. Obviously, Melnyk had much more duties and responsibilities during the group flight than just flying the leading helicopter. I think "проводник" is a right word in the context.


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## Q-cumber

Rosett said:


> "Ведущий" is a one-time role assigned for the current mission. Obviously, Melnyk had much more duties and responsibilities during the group flight than just flying the leading helicopter. I think "проводник" is a right word in the context.


You can as well call him "поводырь", " вожак" or "полупроводник". .. whatever you like. .. Any of them would be 'the right word'...As far as you are ready to explain to everyone what these terms supposed to mean in the given context.


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