# littérature , théorie anglo-saxonne



## Sophie Nomade

How can I translate "anglo-saxon" into English? I know that "Anglo-Saxon" exists in English, but it does not seem to have the same meaning... In english, it rather relates to the "historical" meaning of the term, whereas in French, it is used very often to refer to English-speaking countries (the US, UK,...). For example, we talk about "la littérature anglo-saxonne", "les théories anglo-saxonnes", etc. I have found "Anglosphere" in Wikipedia, which seems to refer to a similar concept, but it does not seem to be commonly used by natives...
Thank you very much in advance for your help!


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## FAC13

In fact we use it both for its historical meaning, and in the same way you do, though admittedly not as much for the latter. 

We don't see the English-speaking world as being quite as monolithic as perhaps the French do (I hope am not being too unfair!), so I don't think there is a single term which carries that meaning. If you must have one then "the English speaking world" is probably as good as any.


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## Saxo

hum, dans Anglo-saxon, il y a de manière sous jacente beaucoup plus (histoire oblige) qu'une communauté linguistique. "Anglo-Saxon" me semble être la meilleure adaptation.


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## wildan1

I agree with FAC13--French uses _Anglo-Saxon_ much more broadly than English.

I would only use it in a historical context as described above, or a linguistic one--where we speak about words being of Anglo-Saxon vs. French or Latin origin. 

But _"anglophone"_ countries (an English term only widely heard in Canada in my experience) would be _English-speaking_. And all of our countries are so much more ethnically and racially diverse that it's hard to make sense of it ias a modern sociological or ethnic description any more.


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## Saxo

ethnique certainement pas, mais économique, oui. On parle du modèle Anglo-saxon par exemple, en tant que modèle de société. Il n'y a plus aucun référent au langage. (Sauf à supposer que le langage modèle les sociétés).


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## FAC13

Saxo said:


> ethnique certainement pas, mais économique, oui.


 
That's the bit I think wildan1 and I disagree with you about - hence the fact we don't have a word which expresses the idea. 

Not something for a long discussion in this forum really, but that's how I see it.


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## Sophie Nomade

The fact is that the authors whose texts I'm translating (usually, about the third sector, or non-profit sector) think that there is sufficiently in common between the UK and the US - and something which differentiates the UK from "continental Europe" - to refer to these by a single word... 
Beyond the analysis of the relevance or non-relevance of this view, in fact, one thing is sure: what they have in common is the language. This does not prevent their being different in other aspects... We say Africa, or America, or Europe - we have a single word for these, although these single words encompass a very diversified reality...  
What I would need would be a word expressing: "from countries whose first language is English"... And I cannot say "English-speaking literature", or "English-language theoretical corpus", can I?
Thank you all for your help in solving this question!


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## wildan1

Sophie Nomade said:


> The fact is that the authors whose texts I'm translating (usually, about the third sector, or non-profit sector) think that there is sufficiently in common between the UK and the US - and something which differentiates the UK from "continental Europe" - to refer to these by a single word...


 
You might call US/UK economic commonalities _capitalist_ or _liberal _(in the European sense of the latter word), but I am not sure other English-speaking countries share that economic mindset. Canada for sure doesn't, nor New Zealand, and English-speaking African countries are another situation!

_Anglo-Saxon economic policies_ means nothing to this... Anglo-Saxon! (I use this label because of personal descendance from families immagrating here from the British Isles, not because I am an American by birth)


> What I would need would be a word expressing: "from countries whose first language is English"... And I cannot say "English-speaking literature", or "English-language theoretical corpus", can I?
> Thank you all for your help in solving this question!


_English-language literature_


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## alisonp

I'd be more inclined to translate it by "English", or possibly "anglophone", unless it clearly has a historical meaning.  Do the French tend to use it to distinguish between UK and US English at all?


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## bh7

I find myself in agreement with wildan1. Outside the proper historical and linguistic contexts, "Anglo-Saxon" sounds positively odd and out of place in English, although one hears the term frequently employed by francophones and germanophones to merely mean English, or anglophone, or relating to Anglo-American culture, economic etc. conditions, or way of life.  In view of the great diversity of the societies in English-speaking countries, such use of "Anglo-Saxon" is no more meaningful than using "francophonic" to refer to conditions in all francophone countries of the world.


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## Sophie Nomade

No, we do not use it to distinguish between US and UK English. (I allow myself to write "we" although I'm not French, but only French-speaking. Do consider this as a "francophonic" answer. ;-)).
For what is meant exactly by Anglo-Saxon in French, see here : ***sorry, I cannot post URLs - so if you are itnerested, just type "monde anglo-saxon wiki" in Google, and you will find it***
As it clearly appears, the meaning of the term varies greatly from one author to the other. But I think that very often, what is really meant is : "the US and the UK". So would "Anglo-American" do the job, or does this mean "American people of English origin"?
Thank you to everyone for helping me translate this really tricky word...


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## onbalance

There is no ready translation. So, if you are not comfortable using Anglo-Saxon, you'll have say something like "the US and the UK," "the British and the Americans," etc. As for adjectives, you could use "American-British," "US-UK." Good luck.


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## Wopsy

And could I just add that Ireland is often thought of in France as being part of the UK, and Irish people as being British. Neither of these is correct. When I point this out, they tend to say 'anglo-saxon, alors'. But that's not right either!
So yes, this is very complex and is more suited to the cultural forum, really ...


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## Sophie Nomade

Maybe I could use "American-British", then. 
Sorry for this last question, but wouldn't it be better to say "North-American-British" then (because I'm not referring to South America), or does this sound awkward?


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## Grop

Hello, I think the French word 'anglo-saxon' (when not referring to its historical meaning) is pretty much like the English word continental (as in "continental breakfast" for instance).

It is a generic term for anything that seems common to several English-speaking countries (especially the UK and the US) on first sight, especially when it seems to come from England (non-latin legal systems, non-metric measure system, etc) and to be odd.

Just like the French don't like to be confused with, say, the Germans or the Italians, there is nothing surprising in the fact that English-speaking people aren't comfortable with this idea.


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## FAC13

Sophie Nomade said:


> Maybe I could use "American-British", then.
> Sorry for this last question, but wouldn't it be better to say "North-American-British" then (because I'm not referring to South America), or does this sound awkward?



The formula most seen in the British media is "Anglo-US" I think. For example "Anglo-US relations", "Anglo-US trade". The word Anglo is hardly ever used except in this way, and even then only if it is easier to say than the alternatives; we would normally say "Franco-British", for instance.

But I think this is a long way from an expression which incoporates the assumptions you would like it to.


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## Sophie Nomade

I think that I have to accept the idea that the expression I would like to find does not exist anyway...  So I will have to make do with expressions that only partly reflect the whole meaning, and "Anglo-US" might be useful in several cases... Thank you to all!


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## wildan1

FAC13 said:


> The formula most seen in the British media is "Anglo-US" I think. For example "Anglo-US relations", "Anglo-US trade". The word Anglo is hardly ever used except in this way, and even then only if it is easier to say than the alternatives; we would normally say "Franco-British", for instance.
> 
> But I think this is a long way from an expression which incoporates the assumptions you would like it to.


 
_Anglo-US relations_ would refer to relations between the US and England; _US-British relations_ between the US and the UK. But not necessarily what they have in common; it describes what is important to their relationship (which may well include differences.)

_Anglo_ (no Saxon) is used in the US to define mainstream, English-speaking people of European descent, generally in contrast with _Latino_ and or _Native American_ populations.


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## funnyhat

wildan1 said:


> You might call US/UK economic commonalities _capitalist_ or _liberal _(in the European sense of the latter word), but I am not sure other English-speaking countries share that economic mindset. Canada for sure doesn't,


 
Having family ties to Canada, and living near the border myself, I must respectfully disagree.  On social issues, Canada tends to be further left-leaning than the United States, but on economic issues it actually isn't all that different.  Businesses do not face much more regulation there than they do here.

As for an English equivalent to _anglo-saxon_, I'd use "Anglophone."  (In Canada, the term tends not to be capitalized, but in other places it seems to be.)


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## wildan1

funnyhat said:


> As for an English equivalent to _anglo-saxon_, I'd use "Anglophone." (In Canada, the term tends not to be capitalized, but in other places it seems to be.)


 
Aside from linguists, Canadians and Africanists, I don't think _Anglophone _is widely used in American English. It is a direct loan word from French (I am not saying there is anything wrong with that! It's just that we have fewer and fewer French-speakers here and many more Spanish-speakers). And really, around me I hear _English-speaking/French-speaking_ much more than _Anglo-Francophone_ outside the special groups mentioned above.

PS Then there is that Canadian rarity, _allophone _(someone whose native language is neither of the two official languages of Canada), which I have never heard anywhere else in the English-speaking world! . Not sure if it is used in other officially bilingual countries (Belgium, Switzerland, etc.)


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## doodlebugger

How about _WASP_?
Is it purely a North American term?
Could it be used as an equivalent to the French (or continental) _Anglo-Saxon_?


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## Grop

doodlebugger said:


> Could [_WASP]_ be used as an equivalent to the French (or continental) _Anglo-Saxon_?



Hi, I don't think the French anglo-saxon excludes non-white or non-protestant people the way WASP does.


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## wildan1

_WASP (White Anglo-Saxon Protestant)_ is a sociological term that specifies a person who represents the majority population in the US in every sense--racially, ethnically and religiously. It usually has a pejorative flavor. I don't think it is used outside the USA. Its use is not as prevalent as it was 25 years ago IMO. WASPs are close to becoming a minority in the US!


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## marcbloch

It isn't impossible to also see the phrase "Anglo-American" as in "Anglo-American literature" etc.  That would of course exclude New Zealand, Australia, Ireland etc.


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## bubbs64

Hello,

My, what a lot of responses...
I would go with "Anglo-American" if it refers specifically to Great Britain and North America, or "English-speaking" or Anglophone" if it could include Australasia, parts of Africa, etc.

I find "American-British" rather odd because it seems the wrong way around, but that may be because I am British and not American.

Personally I dislike the use of the term "Anglo-Saxon" as it is (increasingly) used in France because for me it refers to a race of people who existed over 1,000 years ago, but maybe I'm just being grumpy and oversensitive...


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## funnyhat

One other word that I've recently come across, to refer to the English-speaking, Westernized countries, is the _Anglosphere_. It's a neologism, but it may catch on.


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## Gargamelle

What about "the English-speaking world"?  The countries where English is spoken have some common cultural, as well as linguistic ties, and (I think) communicate among themselves more than they do with the rest of the world.  Just a thought.

Gargamelle


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## wildan1

I am reviving this former discussion because I have just come across a new term for me related to this dilemma: _the Anglosphere.
_
This neologism was coined some 20 years ago and seems to be useful collective term referring to all of the English-speaking countries worldwide.

Voici a définition en français proposée par Wikipedia.fr , mentionnée en passant par Sophie Nomade qui a lancée cette discussion en 2008 (mais que ne n'avais pas remarquée avant) : 





> Le *monde anglo-saxon* (anglais : _*Anglosphere*_) est l'ensemble de pays dont l'organisation socio-économique et la culture ont été fortement influencées par la colonisation britannique et dont l'anglais est la langue principale.



It is a noun, but I do not think _"Anglospheric"_ would work as an adjective, however.

This term does have the advantage of not carrying the historic baggage and unrealistic assumptions that _"Anglo-Saxon" _has in English.


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## marcbloch

I agree that "Anglosphere" is inclusive without carrying a certain set of (negative) ideas or background. Is Ireland part of the English-speaking world? You bet! Are they "Anglo-Saxon?" Obviously not!


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## ain'ttranslationfun?

Note that some people use "Anglo-Saxon" to mean "four-letter words".


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## alex20002

"This term does have the advantage of not carrying the historic baggage and unrealistic assumptions that _"Anglo-Saxon" _has in English."


Le terme "anglo-saxon" fait aussi allusion à la "culture" des ANGLES et les SAXONS. Comme les Franciens / Francs venus en Gaule, ce sont les ANGLES qui donnèrent leur nom au pays. Et c'est l'image de cet héritage culturel "mélangé" qui est conservée dans l'expression "anglo-saxon", tout comme le bagage "gallo-romain", pour "français" ! + (les États-Unis sont dominés par les WASPs)

The term "Anglo-Saxon" also refers to the "culture" of the ANGLES and the SAXONS. Like the Franks / Frankish who came to Gaul, the ANGLES gave their name to ENGLAND. And it is the image of this "mixed" cultural heritage that is preserved in the expression "Anglo-Saxon", just like the "Gallo-Roman" baggage, for "French"! + (The US is dominated by WASPs)


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## onbalance

alex20002 said:


> How about 'Anglo-American' ?



It may depend on the speaker's audience. Here, most people won't understand that you are referring to both the UK and the US. When we use this term, which isn't very common, we are usually referring to someone in the US who has English ancestry. Sometimes, it is construed more broadly to include so-called white American people with ancestry from other Northern European countries. It might work, however, in an academic or literary context, especially one in which you've effectively defined the term. Hope this helps. Regards.


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## atcheque

Bonjour,


ain'ttranslationfun? said:


> Note that some people use "Anglo-Saxon" to mean "four-letter words".


Be clear and explicit. What do you mean? Wasp?


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## Omelette

No, the idea is that some obscene/vulgar words (of four letters) - cock, cunt, fuck, piss - are of Old English (Anglo-Saxon) origin - though actually there's no evidence of this:  It wasn’t all nasty, brutish and short.   So, euphemistically/facetiously they can be referred to as 'Anglo-Saxon English'.


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## Keith Bradford

In reference to political or economic ideas, I'd have no hesitation in saying *Anglo-American*.
In the literary domain I'd say *English-speaking* or *English-language*, depending on context.

*Anglo-Saxon* refers to the language and literature of much of Great Britain between the 6th and the 11th centuries (synonym _Old English_).  It looks like this:


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## alex20002

atcheque said:


> Be clear and explicit. What do you mean? Wasp?


Wasp - (US) White Anglo-Saxon Protestant - a demographic in the US to denote sth like 'the ruling elite'

+ in the UK you might here or read ' "he / she let fly with a few Anglo-Saxon four-letter words." euphemism for swear words


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