# Frasi ipotetiche



## Alxmrphi

My Italian teacher gave me a piece of homework and inside it was a section on "frase ipotetiche" - I was only able to complete it with a lot of help from Italians on MSN, and the ones I did by myself were merely looking above and following what happened in the ones I had solid answers to.

I realise I have barely any idea on the structure of these, the only "rule" I seem to have found out is that if the first verb is in the conditional then the second verb also has to be in the conditional, and if the first is in the imperfect subjunctive then the second is also the conditional.

Does anyone know where I can read any rules about how to answer these types of questions, here are an example three of what I am talking about.

1. Se Claudio inizia a bere non ....*la finirà*..... (finirla) più
2. Se sbaglio (tu) .............. *correggimi!*........ (correggere-me!)
3. Se (io) .....*avrei*.... (avere)tempo mi dedicherei di più alla mia famiglia.

The brackets are what is given and the bold is the answer I have filled in.
How do I know the rules for what is needed in these types of sentence?


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## MünchnerFax

First of all, it's called _frase ipo*te*tica_. 



Alex_Murphy said:


> I realise I have barely any idea on the structure of these, the only "rule" I seem to have found out is that if the first verb is in the conditional then the second verb also has to be in the conditional_wrong!_ , and if the first is in the imperfect subjunctive then the second is also the conditional.


It's not different from what you have in English. You can build these sentences with the indicative:
_If I earn enough money with my new job, I'll travel to Spain next year._

...or with the subjunctive in the subordinate clause and the conditional in the main clause:
_If I had enough money, I'd travel to Spain. But I'm broke._
_If we had gone to the shop earlier, we would have been able to buy some food. Now it's closed._

It's pretty much the same in Italian - whereas our subjunctive is just a bit more tricky to conjugate.
_Se con il mio nuovo lavoro guadagno abbastanza, l'anno prossimo vado in vacanza in Spagna. _(indicative - indicative)
_Se avessi abbastanza soldi, andrei in vacanza in Spagna. _(subjunctive - conditional)
_Se fossimo andati al negozio prima, avremmo potuto comprare da mangiare. _(subjunctive - conditional)

1. Se Claudio inizia a bere non ....*la finisce*..... (finirla) più
2. Se sbaglio (tu) .............. *correggimi! *........ (correggere-me!)
3. Se (io) .....*avessi*.... (avere)tempo mi dedicherei di più alla mia famiglia.


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## underhouse

Innanzi tutto credo che si chiamino frasi ipotetiche non ipotiche.
Ricorda che in italiano *se* e' seguito dall'*indicativo* o dal *congiuntivo* mai dal condizionale.

If you go, I'll go too. 
Se tu vai, vengo anch'io.

If you came, we would be happy.
Se tu venissi, saremmo felici.

If you had come,  we would have been four of us.
Se tu fossi venuto, saremmo stati in quattro.

1. Se Claudio inizia a bere non ....*la finisce*..... (finirla) più
2. Se sbaglio (tu) .............. *correggimi!*........ (correggere-me!)
3. Se (io) .....*avessi*.... (avere)tempo mi dedicherei di più alla mia famiglia.


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## Alxmrphi

> It's not different from what you have in English. You can build these sentences with the indicative:
> _If I earn enough money with my new job, I'll travel to Spain next year._



So the main verb in the subordinate clause shouldn't be in the future, ever?


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## mateintwo

Both the if and the main phrase must be in the future tense if you want to use future tense.

Se tu andrai, andro' anch'io


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## Alxmrphi

I mean when the first one is in the present:



> _If I *earn* enough money with my new job, *I'll* travel to Spain next year._


in the Italian:


> _Se con il mio nuovo lavoro *guadagno* abbastanza, l'anno prossimo *vado* in vacanza in Spagna. _(indicative - indicative)



It's only "vado" - not "andrò"
The english has "present + future" but the Italian "present + present"

I just wanted to know if it always retained this form.


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## Alxmrphi

There always seems to be!

But I will remember your rule, it is helpful to remember you do not mix them up...

Se guardagnerò molti soldi, andrò in Spagna
Se guardagno molti soldi, vado in Spagna 

Like this?


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## mateintwo

I deleted the previous message because I felt unsure after reading another grammar book that had this example:
Se te ne vai, potro’ leggere in pace la pagina sportive.

So it seems contrary to what I have been saying you can mix
Present indicative and future tense.


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## MünchnerFax

Alex_Murphy said:


> So the main verb in the subordinate clause shouldn't be in the future, ever?


Wrong. 
It can be in the future as long as you are talking about a future action. A future action is, let's say, a single occurrence taking place later than now (when we are speaking); not an habitual occurrence.
So:

_Di solito, se Claudio inizia a bere, non la finisce più._

But:

_Se Claudio inizia a bere adesso_ (this very time)_, non la finirà più. _But you can also say _non la finisce più_. The only reason for this is that in Italian we often use the present when talking about the future.

The following are all correct sentences:
_Se guadagnerò molti soldi, andrò in Spagna._
_ Se guadagno molti soldi, vado in Spagna._ (Why _vado_? Just because we often use the present)
_Se guadagno molti soldi, andrò in Spagna._


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## Alxmrphi

Yeah, I know about the present can be used to mean the future rule, and as long as that is the way I treat it, it's ok, one single action that will happen/happens p) later than now.

Se ascolto MüncherFax, imparerò molto
Se ascoltassi MüncherFax, sarei stato imparato molto

?


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## MünchnerFax

Now, today, this time: _Se ascolto__ MüncherFax, imparerò_ (or _imparo_) _molto
_Habitual: _Se ascolto__ MüncherFax, __imparo_ _molto_

Present:_ Se ascoltassi MüncherFax, imparerei molto _(present conditional)
Past: _Se avessi ascoltato MünchnerFax, avrei imparato molto _(past conditional)

By the way, it's Münch*n*er...


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## Alxmrphi

I understand, except for the "present:" one:
Does that mean "If I would listen to/If I were to listen to MunchnerFax, I would learn much"?

- If so, then it makes sense. I just couldn't see the different between the other present one.


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## alcesta

Alex_Murphy said:


> I understand, except for the "present:" one:
> Does that mean "If I would listen to/If I were to listen to MunchnerFax, I would learn much"?
> 
> - If so, then it makes sense. I just couldn't see the different between the other present one.


That's right. The "first present one" is a *periodo ipotetico della realta'*, the second one *periodo della possibilita'*, that's the difference. The first one is more "real", so to speak.

(Sorry about accentuation, my Italian Language bar is out of order for the moment).


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## Alxmrphi

Totally understand, one is based on the fact that listening would mean learning, the second shows the belief you have of that fact? If that makes any sense.


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## MünchnerFax

Alex_Murphy said:


> Totally understand, one is based on the fact that listening would mean learning, the second shows the belief you have of that fact? If that makes any sense.



Either the belief I have, or the fact that there's little chance you'll be listening  (_periodo ipotetico della *possibilità*_) or even that I know you, and I'm sure you won't be listening (and that would be the _periodo ipotetico dell'*irrealtà*_).


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## Alxmrphi

Can you rewrite that last post, but change the way you say it so it's less confusing (and have the Italian/English examples next to the thing you're talking about)

That format will make it a billion times easier to understand!

Thanks.


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## MünchnerFax

"Periodo ipotetico della realtà"_
Se ascolto__ MünchnerFax, __imparo_ _molto._
It's up to me. If I do, I'll learn. Otherwise, I won't. (You see, I used "I do" and "I will learn" in English as well)
Other interpretation: every time I listen to him, I always learn a lot.

"Periodo ipotetico della possibilità"
_Se ascoltassi__ MünchnerFax, __imparerei_ _molto._
If I did, I'd learn. (subjunctive + conditional in English as well)
However, there's little chance I'll do, because:_
...he's hardly ever online, so I can't contact him now. I'll wait for him to reconnect.

_"Periodo ipotetico dell'irrealtà" (grammatically, the same as above)
_Se ascoltassi__ MünchnerFax, __imparerei_ _molto._
If I did, I'd learn. (subjunctive + conditional in English as well). But...
This always implies a "but":
_...but he's so boring I just can't stand him.
...but my computer has broken down.
...but I know myself, I'm too lazy for that.
but, but, but. 

_(May we change the sentence? I'm getting red... )


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## Alxmrphi

lol! - it started as a complement only.
I just wasn't sure of the Italian names you gave them, but it makes sense...

And the only other one left is:

Se avessi ascoltato MüchnerFax, avrei imparato molto
If I had listened to MüchnerFax, I would have learnt much

Now I know the difference I was confused about, about present tense and imperfect subjunctive, the present represents something maybe habitual, or the decision is up to me to make. The imperfect subjunctive means if I did do something, then I would gain something, but it might not always be available (talking about this example about learning from someone)

And the last one just meaning I had the opportunity and didn't take it, and I missed out on something.

Ok, I think that's quite clear now! Thanks, and I think I can safely say it's the present habitual tense that applies


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## dylanG3893

Ciao a tutti.
So quando dovrebbe essere messo il congiuntivo dopo 'che', ma quando dovrebbe essere messo il congiuntivo dopo 'se'?

If you tell me that I can't control myself, I will show you that I can.
*Se tu mi dica? che non mi posso controllare, allora ti mostro che posso.* - Si dovrebbe usare qui il congiuntivo? Oh no..

I love New York, if it's clean.
*Adoro New York, se è pulito.*
- Dovrei dire "Adoro New York, se sia pulito."??

C'è una regola per il congiuntivo dopo 'se'.
Grazzzzie!


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## IlPetaloCremisi

Se tu mi dici...you dont use it here.
Adoro NYC se è pulita.


La regola è sempre la stessa : si usa il congiuntivo quando si fa riferimento ad un elemento soggettivo o ad un elemento possibile, eventuale.
Ex: Se tu mi dicessi che non mi ami più, scomparirei dalla tua vita.

In this case you use the subjuntive, because who knows what she will say? She could say she still loves him or the opposite.


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## dylanG3893

IlPetaloCremisi said:


> Se tu mi dici...you dont use it here.
> Adoro NYC se è pulita.
> 
> 
> La regola è sempre la stessa : si usa il congiuntivo quando si fa riferimento ad un elemento soggettivo o ad un elemento possibile, eventuale.
> Ex: Se tu mi dicessi che non mi ami più, scomparirei dalla tua vita.
> 
> In this case you use the subjuntive, because who knows what she will say? She could say she still loves him or the opposite.



Mi puoi dare un esempio?
Grazie.


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## IlPetaloCremisi

Another example of when you use the subjuntive could be:

*Nel caso* mi piaccia il libro, andrò a vedere il film. 
*Se* mi dicesse che è d'accordo con me, sarei contento.

Uso il congiuntivo perchè si tratta di un qualcosa che non è certo. Non è sicuro che mi piaccia il libro, così come non è sicuro che mi dica che è d'accordo con me.

Ti è un po più chiaro?


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## dylanG3893

Sì, è un po' più chiaro...
Puoi controllare questo esempio?

*Se io veda lo spot di nuovo, te ne racconterò.*


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## IlPetaloCremisi

Qui sostituirei il se con nel caso:

Nel caso veda lo spot di nuovo, te ne racconterò.

Se + congiuntivo presente suona male. E' comunque corretto usare il congiuntivo in questo caso, perchè non si è certi di vedere nuovamente lo spot.


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## dylanG3893

Ok, grazie.
Allora, quando si dovrebbe usare 'Nel caso' invece di 'Se'??


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## IlPetaloCremisi

Diciamo che sono sostanzialmente sinonimi, introducono entrambi una frase ipotetica. Ma se + congiuntivo presente suona male, per cui tutte le volte che devi esprimere un'ipotetica con il congiuntivo presente, meglio usare "nel caso". =) Mentre puoi tranquillamente usare se + congiuntivo passato.


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## dylanG3893

Capisco, capisco.
Grazie!


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## Never Got a Dinner

If one is in the conditional or subjunctive, the other has to be, right?

Se tu la dica, io la crederei.

I don't think you can say

Se tu la dica, io la credo.

Nor do I believe this is correct:

Se tu la dici, io la credo (except colloquially, which is not what we're talking about here)


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## IlPetaloCremisi

Never Got a Dinner said:


> If one is in the conditional or subjunctive, the other has to be, right?
> 
> Se tu la dica, io la crederei. Se tu lo dicessi, io lo crederei.
> 
> I don't think you can say
> 
> Se tu la dica, io la credo.Se lo dici tu, io ci credo.
> 
> Nor do I believe this is correct:
> 
> Se tu la dici, io la credo (except colloquially, which is not what we're talking about here)


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## virgilio

Alex,
      I don't know whether this will help but here goes!
The first thing to do, I suggest, is to have a label in your own mind for the kind of sentence involved.
It seems to me that much confusion could be avoided, if something like the following definitions were accepted. I use the labels which happen to suit me; choose different ones for yourself, if that helps - but once chosen, stick to them!
(1) "Conditional sentences" are any sentences containing the conjunctions "if" or (in English also) "unless" (se ..non).
(2) The conditional tense  is badly named because it does not occur in all conditional sentences and it does occur in sentences which are not conditional. 
(3) Do not confuse the adjective "conditional" in (1) with its very loose and inappropriate use in (2)
(4) Conditional sentences (see 1 above) are of two kinds: factual conditional sentences ('facconsens') and hypothetical conditional sentences ('hypoconsens')
(5) 'Facconsens' are conditional sentences in which, given that the protasis ("if" or "unless" clause) happens, what is asserted in the apodosis (the "then" clause) is, was or will be factual - that is, in the speaker's opinion, real or true.
(6) 'Hypoconsens' are conditional sentences in which the *protasis* depicts an action or situation which is implied by the speaker to be unreal, imaginary or supposed. Although in hypoconsens the apodosis also normally depicts an imaginary or supposed action or situation, it is not necessary that it do so.

Once we have got those defining premisses under our belt, so to speak, the rest is easy:
(a) 'facconsens' use indicative verbs in both protasis and apodosis, the tenses being solely dependent on the time relative to the speaker's current 'present'.
eg
Se non ci andrai tu, non andrò neanche io.
If you don't go I shall not go either.
(The difference of tenses in English is the oddity here; Italian is logical; both are future events, therefore both are future verbs)
Se ci è andato, non l'ho visto.
If he did go, I didn't see him.
Se tuo nonno parlava così, aveva ragione.
If your grandfather spoke like that, he was right.

(I am of course aware that *colloquially* the present tense can be used for future time. but don't let that side-issue obfuscate the general rule.)

(b) 'hypoconsens' in Italian have an imperfect subjunctive in the protasis and a so-called 'conditional' tense an the apodosis.
When a 'hypoconsen' depicts a supposed or imaginary *past* event or situation, that imperfect subjunctive will be the verb of an expression which is a paraphrase of the Past Perfect (or Pluperfect) tense and the 'conditional' will be the verb of an expression which is a paraphrase of the 'Conditional' Perfect tense.
eg
If you had told me that before, I would not have bought the car.
Se tu mi [avessi detto] quello prima, non [avrei comprato] la macchina.

The tense which has come to be called the 'conditional' tense is a relative new-comer, having come into existence only around the 15th century. Before that the imperfect subjunctive was used in both protasis and apodosis of 'hypoconsens'.

I have invented the abbreviations "facconsen' and 'hypoconsen' because the phrases "factual conditional sentence" and "hypothetical conditional sentence" are both a bit of a mouthful and, although accurate, very time-consuming to keep using over and over again.
Hope this helps.
Virgilio


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## lostinmilan

Posso dire: Se avessi degli amici, sarei felice.   ?
Se venissi, cominceremmo la lezione. 
Grazie.


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## lostinmilan

Posso dire anche: se lavorassero sodo, guardagnarebbero un sacco di soldi. ?

Se ascoltasse l'avviso, sarebbe piu ricco. (better off)

Se rimasse a casa, evitarebbe quella situazione sgradevole. 

Non pagassero molto l'importa se il governo no aumentarebbe le entrate.   ?

Grazie.


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## pandinorombante

dylanG3893 said:


> Ciao a tutti.
> So quando dovrebbe essere messo il congiuntivo dopo 'che', ma quando dovrebbe essere messo il congiuntivo dopo 'se'?
> 
> If you tell me that I can't control myself, I will show you that I can.
> *Se tu mi dica? che non mi posso controllare, allora ti mostro che posso.* - Si dovrebbe usare qui il congiuntivo? Oh no..
> 
> I love New York, if it's clean.
> *Adoro New York, se è pulita.*
> - Dovrei dire "Adoro New York, se sia pulito."??
> 
> C'è una regola per il congiuntivo dopo 'se'.
> Grazzzzie!



Come IlPetaloCremisi ha sottolineato, il congiuntivo va utilizzato solo quando c'è un'idea di incertezza o di 'impossibilità' (2° e 3° tipo di condizionale), altrimenti la frase condizionale è del 1° tipo e quindi nella frase ipotetica va usato l'indicativo e non il congiuntivo. 

Chiaro, no?


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## pandinorombante

lostinmilan said:


> Posso dire: Se avessi degli amici, sarei felice.   ?
> Se venissi, cominceremmo la lezione.
> Grazie.



Prego.


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## pandinorombante

lostinmilan said:


> Posso dire anche: se lavorassero sodo, guardagnarebbero un sacco di soldi. ?
> 
> Se ascoltasse l'avviso, sarebbe piu ricco. (better off)
> 
> Se rimanesse a casa, eviterebbe quella situazione sgradevole.
> 
> Non pagassero molto l'importa se il governo no aumentarebbe le entrate.   ?  (what did you want to say?) (con "importa" intendevi "imposta"? Non mi è chiaro comunque cosa volevi dire)
> 
> Grazie.


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