# gracioso (Pronunciation th/s)



## Spycat

I am learning Spanish from a “Talk Now” CD from Best Buy.  I noticed “c” makes a “th” sound many times as in “gracious.”  However, on ESPN and otherwise I hear it pronounced as “s.”  
 
I am interested in learning how Spanish is spoken in Mexico and want to get it right on an upcoming visit.  What are the differences from Spain Spanish and Mexico Spanish that I should be concerned with?
 
Thanks a lot!


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## JB

There are too many differences to list in a post.  However, re the pronunciation, in Spain (generally) a "c" before an "e" or an "i" (that is to say, when it is soft, not a "k") is pronounced like the "th" in weather.  Same for the "z".   
In Latin America, the "c" is an "s", as in the U.S.
One exampe:
Casar (to marry, or wed) and cazar (to hunt) are pronounced identically in L.A., but not in Spain.
Even though Spanish pronunciation is 100% phonetic, this is one source of spelling errors, people writing a z for an s, and vice versa.  Keep this ind mind, if you're looking up a word in a dictionary, andcan't find it.

If you're just starting to learn Spanish, my personal suggestion (someone else will surely post an opposing view) I suggest you not worry too much about the differences at this point.  The most important thing is to build a foundation (assuming your goal is to ultimately be fluent), and later you can always pick up on the subtle differences.

If you are just planning a trip and want to learn a few phrases, then just make sure the class you take, or the books or tapes/CDs you buy/get from the library, specify Latin American.  

P.S.  There are differences within Spain, and lots of differences between Mexico, C.A., Argentina, etc.  If you Search this forum, will find a lot of threads on this.  However, as I said above, if you're just starting, get a basic foundation (the same everywhere), then build on it, and along the way you'll pick up on the differences.  (If you were studying English in a foreign country, at some point you would need to know that "rubber" is a condomn in the U.S. and an eraser in Britain, but it's not critical in the beginning.  Besides, as long as people see you are trying, a mistake will be forgiven (and possibly corrected, but out of politeness, they may not tell you unless you specifically ask).

Buena suerte.


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## ERASMO_GALENO

Hi,

In conclusion, no "th" sound when you are in Latin America.
Greetings,

*Erasmo.*


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## oriental

Hello spycat and welcome to this forum.
Maybe you are lucky, because an answer like the one jbruceismay made is perfect, one in a million, and I think for starters....let the lenguage be with you...


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## Chris K

_in Spain (generally) a "c" before an "e" or an "i" (that is to say, when it is soft, not a "k") is pronounced like the "th" in weather. Same for the "z"._

One minor point: the Spanish "th" sound referred to is actually the unvoiced "th" as in "think" or "thin", not the voiced sound as in "weather" or "then." Many English speakers never even realize that we use two distinct sounds, both of which are represented by "th."


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## JB

Chris K said:
			
		

> _in Spain (generally) a "c" before an "e" or an "i" (that is to say, when it is soft, not a "k") is pronounced like the "th" in weather. Same for the "z"._
> One minor point: the Spanish "th" sound referred to is actually the unvoiced "th" as in "think" or "thin", not the voiced sound as in "weather" or "then." Many English speakers never even realize that we use two distinct sounds, both of which are represented by "th."


 
My dear Mr. Chris K.
You are absolutely right, and it is not a minor point, but a significant one.  Thank you for catching it.  (I'm used to using the voiced "th" to get Americans to produce another sound--the medial "d", as in "cada"--but that does not apply here, and I apologize for my haste.)

To Oriental:
Thank you so much for the high praise; what a shame I screwed up (but just a little).  

To Spycat:
To fix any confusion I may have unintentionally caused.
The "voiced th" sound is called such because the vocal chords are vibrated (making a buzzing sound).  If you say the words "weather," "either" and "these" very slowly you should hear it.  (Place your fingers very gently over your Adam's Apple, and you will feel the vibrations that start the sound)

The "unvoiced th" is so called because there is no vocal chord involvement--just air.  Say the words "think" "throw" and "ether" slowly, and you will see that there is no sound (other than the air) until _after _you pass the th and get to the vowel or consonant sound that follows it.  .

Note the difference between "either" and "ether." 

Again, as Chris said, in Spain (and remember there are regional differences there, as everywhere) the "c" is an *unvoiced "th"*, which is the sound you are probably used to hearing anyway without consciously analyzing it.  But since your interest is Mexico, you can just forget it exists, except when listenomg tp a Spaniard, oiu'll understand them.


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## Spycat

Great feedback.  Thank you.

Can you suggest anything else I can do to become fluent in Spanish?  Right now I am learning from a CD, trying to read newspapers online from Mexico City, and watching ESPN in Spanish.  (I don't have opportunity to mingle with those who speak Spanish).


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## skatoulitsa

jbruceismay said:
			
		

> There are too many differences to list in a post. However, re the pronunciation, in Spain (generally) a "c" before an "e" or an "i" (that is to say, when it is soft, not a "k") is pronounced like the "th" in weather. Same for the "z".



Just a minor point here, because the above might be confusing to some people. It is not the same for "z" as "c", considering the rules. Always talking about Spain, "z" is _always_ spoken as the unvoiced "th", no matter of the letter following, but "c" is pronounced like that only before "e" or "i" as mentioned.


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## Angel Mario

JB, you are great!
I´ve never thought about the difference of the sounds in this way. Maybe you´re a teacher, aren´t you? I am learning to analyse my own language, and i like it.
Only one little thing more: fall in love with a Spaniard woman and she would learn you more Spanish than you´ll never need ...


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## mazbook

Angel Mario said:


> JB, you are great!
> I´ve never thought about the difference of the sounds in this way. Maybe you´re a teacher, aren´t you? I am learning to analyse my own language, and i like it.
> Only one little thing more: fall in love with a Spaniardsh woman (Mexican women, too  ) and she would learn will teach you more Spanish than you´ll never need ...


Y aquí es una poca ayuda para su inglés Ángel.

Saludos desde Mazatlán


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## Namakemono

I encourage everyone to learn Spain Spanish phonetic as it's the most complete and the one that matches the written language better.


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## Alicky

mazbook said:


> Y aquí es una poca ayuda para su inglés Ángel.
> 
> Saludos desde Mazatlán


 

Spaniard can be used as a synonym for spanish. But I've been told it is pejorative. Is that true?
You can also fall in love with an argentine woman 
Namakemono is right. Spanish phonetics matches the written language much better. I go along Namakemono's point of view.
But I also think that if you will have to talk to Mexican people, it's better that you learn the "mexican way".
I think the best way to become fluent is reading a lot, listening a lot, and much more important: talk with natives! But try reading books, not only the neewspapers. And no more ESPN for you! Watch Mtv, "telenovelas", movies, anything and everything! That way you can improve your vocabulary and learn everyday idiomatic expressions.


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## caballosgirl

Spaniard=person from Spain or a Spanish person.  You don't say, "I met a Spanish," You say, "I met a Spaniard," or "I met a Spanish person." 
saludos


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## Brian P

Alicky said:


> Spaniard can be used as a synonym for spanish. But I've been told it is pejorative. Is that true?


A Spaniard is a native of Spain.  It is certainly not pejorative.


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## Alicky

Brian P and caballosgirl thank you very much!!!!


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## TLACUACHE

Quite Interesting, I Am Learning A Lot. May You Tell Me What        -pejorative- Means. A Looked For It At The Merrian  Dicctionary But The Answer Was Not So Clear.
Thanks Every One


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## Alicky

Pejorative es peyorativo. Algo que rebaja a la otra persona. Otras acepciones son denigrante o derogatorio.


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## TLACUACHE

Entonces en el ejemplo de - spaniard y spanish person-   ¿si ambas son correctas cual sería el peyorativo?

¿Hay algún ejemplo aplicable a -mexican-?


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## TLACUACHE

Ah!! perdón, gracias Alicky, tu respuesta fue muy clara.


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## Alicky

Segun me han aclarado en este mismo foro, ninguno de los dos terminos son peyorativos.
Eso lo habia leido yo en algun lado, pero no pude encontrar donde.
¿Estas preguntando si hay algun termino para decir "a mexican"? la verdad no conozco ningun otro.
Y de nada


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## Brian P

Alicky said:


> Segun me han aclarado en este mismo foro, ninguno de los dos terminos son peyorativos.
> Eso lo habia leido yo en algun lado, pero no pude encontrar donde.
> ¿Estas preguntando si hay algun termino para decir "a mexican"? la verdad no conozco ningun otro.
> Y de nada


 
Un peyorativo para un mexicano que vive en los EEUU es "wetback" (espalda mojada) porque algunos de ellos cruzan a nado el Río Grande para entrar el país.


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## Alicky

Brian P said:


> Un peyorativo para un mexicano que vive en los EEUU es "wetback" (espalda mojada) porque algunos de ellos cruzan a nado el Rió Grande para entrar el país.


 
Es verdad! Me habia olvidado!
Ya que estamos en el tema, el peyorativo para argentino es argie?
O es simplemente una contraccion de la palabra, como por ejemplo: australian: aussie


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## mazbook

Hola Alicky:

"Spaniard" es un sustantivo y  "spanish" es un adjetivo en inglés pero "mexican" en inglés es ambos.  Entonces no puede decir "spaniard person/woman" pero sí puede decir "...a mexican." or "mexican person/woman".  ¿Más claro?

Saludos desde Mazatlán

Y "mexican" es peyorativa solo con las racistas en los EEUU.


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## Ube

Hi. An example: Suramericano is not pejorative; Sudaca is pejorative


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## Brian P

mazbook said:


> Hola Alicky:
> Y "mexican" es peyorativa solo con las racistas en los EEUU.




No es correcto, mazbook.  "Mexican" no es un peyorativo.  Quiere decir sencillamente un nativo de México.  El único peyorativo que se es, como dije antes, "wetback"


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## Alicky

mazbook said:


> Hola Alicky:
> 
> "Spaniard" es un sustantivo y "spanish" es un adjetivo en inglés pero "mexican" en inglés es ambos. Entonces no puede decir "spaniard person/woman" pero sí puede decir "...a mexican." or "mexican person/woman". ¿Más claro?
> 
> Saludos desde Mazatlán
> 
> Y "mexican" es peyorativa solo con las racistas en los EEUU.


 
Gracias Mazbook! Si, en realidad eso fue un error mio al tipear la frase. Yo quise poner spaniard es sinonimo de spanish people, pero escribi spaniard es sinonimo de spanish. Pero como me gusta que me corrijan,a si aprendo dejé el error . Eso llevó a una nueva discusion sobre la existencia de algun termino peyorativo en ingles para mexican people. El cual es wetback, no mexican. Mexican es un gentilicio. Y no tiene un significado subjetivo. Que es lo que nos contó Brian P.
Ube, gracias! Ese termino lo conocia. Conoces algun otro?


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## Brian P

Alicky said:


> Ya que estamos en el tema, el peyorativo para argentino es argie?
> O es simplemente una contraccion de la palabra, como por ejemplo: australian: aussie


 
"Argie" es un BE peyorativo y creo que originase en el tiempo de la guerra de Las Malvinas.


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## Alicky

Brian P said:


> "Argie" es un BE peyorativo y creo que originase en el tiempo de la guerra de Las Malvinas.


 
Gracias Brian!!
Si, y tambien tengo entendido que se origino durante Malvinas. Mi duda surgió porque lo lei en un diario de UK, y como yo pensaba que era peyorativo, me habia sorprendido que se usara. 
Aunque quizas ha perdido algo de su sentido derogatorio.


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## Brian P

Alicky said:


> Conoces algun otro?


 
Sugiero que empieces un nuevo hilo, “peyorativos”


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## mazbook

Hola Brian:





Brian P said:


> [/color]
> 
> No es correcto, mazbook.  "Mexican" no es un peyorativo.  Quiere decir sencillamente un nativo de México.  El único peyorativo que se es, como dije antes, "wetback"


Obviamente no ha vivido en Texas.  A menudo en Texas "mexican" es peyoritiva *y *racista.

Saludos desde Mazatlán


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## Dr. Quizá

Brian P said:


> Un peyorativo para un mexicano que vive en los EEUU es "wetback" (espalda mojada) porque algunos de ellos cruzan a nado el Río Grande para entrar el país.



Curioso. En España se usaba "espalda mojada" para referirse a los ilegales que atraviesan el estrecho, pero sin ningún tipo de desprecio. De hecho, era la expresión normal usada en la prensa (ahora la moda es usar "magrebí" o la horrorosa "subsahariano").


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## caballosgirl

Dr. Quizá said:


> Curioso. En España se usaba "espalda mojada" para referirse a los ilegales que atraviesan el estrecho, pero sin ningún tipo de desprecio. De hecho, era la expresión normal usada en la prensa (ahora la moda es usar "magrebí" o la horrorosa "subsahariano").



si, en los EEUU se usa wetback para referirse a los ilegales.  
saludos


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## Maeron

As others have mentioned, there are other differences between Spanish in  Spain and Latin America, but if you follow your Spanish CD, people will understand you just fine, just as you would understand a foreigner who had learned her English from a British CD. 

There are some vocabulary differences, too, but you probably don't have to bother about most of them (one exception below in the next paragraph). You may encounter some common expressions in Mexico that would sound strange or even unheard of in Spain. For example, if you didn't hear something and you want to ask "pardon?" you say _¿mande_? in Mexico, but that sounds very odd and antiquated to Spaniards. Another one is that in Spain, to say "excuse me!" when you want to get someone's attention, you say _¡oiga!_ but that sounds very abrupt, almost rude in Mexico. Here it's better to say _"disculpe"_. 

In Spain, _coger _is a common, ordinary all-purpose word that means to catch, to get, to grab, etc. But in many parts of Latin America, it has taken on a sexual meaning. In Argentina, it is like the f-word. In Mexico, it is a little less strong, more like "screw". If you have learned to use "_coger_" as an everyday innocent word, you're probably better off speaking Spanish with a Spain accent, _th_'s and all!


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## Brian P

mazbook said:


> Hola Brian:Obviamente no ha vivido en Texas. A menudo en Texas "mexican" es peyoritiva *y *racista.
> 
> Saludos desde Mazatlán


 
¿Y que es el nombre cortés tejano para un mexicano?


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## mazbook

Brian P said:


> ¿Y que es el nombre cortés tejano para un mexicano?


"Beaner" o "meshikan" pero las no son más peyorativo que sea simplemente "mexican" cuando dicho una racista.  Los tres son HORRIBLES cuando dicho las racistas

Saludos desde Mazatlán


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## Jellby

Dr. Quizá said:


> Curioso. En España se usaba "espalda mojada" para referirse a los ilegales que atraviesan el estrecho, pero sin ningún tipo de desprecio.



¿Desde cuándo es eso? Yo siempre he oído "espalda mojada" para referirse a los ilegales (mexicanos) en EE. UU., pero nunca para los que entran en España por el estrecho, quizá sea una extensión del término (porque creo que la inmigración en España es más reciente que en EE. UU.).

En cuanto a "magrebí", me parece un término correcto para alguien originario del "Magreb" (norte de África u Occidente del "mundo musulmán": Marruecos, Túnez, Argelia); pero "subsahariano" estoy de acuerdo en que merece un "premio".


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## Dr. Quizá

Jellby said:


> ¿Desde cuándo es eso? Yo siempre he oído "espalda mojada" para referirse a los ilegales (mexicanos) en EE. UU., pero nunca para los que entran en España por el estrecho, quizá sea una extensión del término (porque creo que la inmigración en España es más reciente que en EE. UU.).
> 
> En cuanto a "magrebí", me parece un término correcto para alguien originario del "Magreb" (norte de África u Occidente del "mundo musulmán": Marruecos, Túnez, Argelia); pero "subsahariano" estoy de acuerdo en que merece un "premio".



La pregunta no es "desde", sino "hasta". Hace unos diez años era algo corriente. "Subsahariano" no sé cómo se ha colado en el DRAE, porque el mismo DRAE bien explica que "sub" es "debajo" y no "al sur" y que "subtropical" no es "al sur del trópico". Para mí, técnicamente "subsahariano" significa que es un zombi emergido de entre las arenas del Sáhara


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## Angel Mario

Perdona que te corrija Mazbook, pero es que hablas fatal. El orden de las palabras suele ser idéntico en Español castellano que en Español americano y tu tienes desordenadas las dos frases, me explico:

Donde dices:
""Beaner" o "meshikan" pero las no son más peyorativo que sea simplemente "mexican" cuando dicho una racista"

creo que quieres decir:
""Beaner" o "meshikan" no son más peyorativas que un simple "mexican" dicho por un racista"

Y donde dices:
"Los tres son HORRIBLES cuando dicho las racistas"
creo que quieres decir:
"Las tres son horribles dichas por un racista"

Salu2


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## lazarus1907

Alicky said:


> Pejorative es peyorativo. Algo que rebaja a la otra persona. Otras acepciones son denigrante o *derogatorio*.


Perdona, pero derotorio significa que anula la validez de alguna norma, y es sinónimo de invalidatorio, no de peyorativo.


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## mazbook

Muchísimas gracias por sus correcciones, Angel Mario.  Ahora, guardo sus correcciones con mi original porque quiero estudiar.  Aprendí mucho diaro en este foro.

Saludos desde Mazatlán


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## Alicky

lazarus1907 said:


> Perdona, pero derotorio significa que anula la validez de alguna norma, y es sinónimo de invalidatorio, no de peyorativo.


 
Tenés razón. No se en que estaba pensando. Me parece que en algún lado lo vi como sinónimo de peyorativo. Voy a buscarlo a ver si lo encuentro y no fue producto de mi imaginación. Gracias


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## Mikal

Seguro que los "Mexicans" son felices cuando se refieren asi. 

You can say anything with a negative tone, but as hard has I have worked to learn Spanish, call me a Mexican, and I'm in seventh heaven.


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