# El fenómeno de la piratería



## Fabian

En la ciudad de México puedes encontrar productos pirata de todo tipo en cualqueir mercado callejero y los puestos de discos de música y programas de computadora venden por montones. Analizando un poco el asunto en México:

Sueldo mínimo diario : 4 dólares americanos *

Costo de un CD de música original: 9 a 27 dlls.* Pirata: mayoreo .27c *menudeo: 1.36 dlls*.

Costo de software original: partiendo de 227 dlls*. Pirata: 2.7 a 4.5 dlls*.

*aproximados

¿la pobreza justifica la compra de productos pirata?


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## asm

NO creo que se justifique, sin embargo tampoco creo que los precios tan elevados se justifican. 

La gente que gana el salario minimo esta lejos de poder comprar discos y mucho menos programas de computadoras , muy lamentablemente. 



			
				Fabian said:
			
		

> En la ciudad de México puedes encontrar productos pirata de todo tipo en cualqueir mercado callejero y los puestos de discos de música y programas de computadora venden por montones. Analizando un poco el asunto en México:
> 
> Sueldo mínimo diario : 4 dólares americanos *
> 
> Costo de un CD de música original: 9 a 27 dlls.* Pirata: mayoreo .27c *menudeo: 1.36 dlls*.
> 
> Costo de software original: partiendo de 227 dlls*. Pirata: 2.7 a 4.5 dlls*.
> 
> *aproximados
> 
> ¿la pobreza justifica la compra de productos pirata?


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## alc112

Yo creo que se justifica que salgan tan caros los softwares originales:
Se supone qu ehacer un software es algo muy complicado, que tienes que saber un montón de cosas sobre programación, códigos, etc, etc ,etc. O sea, lo hace un verdadero genio de la computación.
Yo si fuera uno de esos genios y veo que el programa que realicé con tanto esmero por mucho tiempo se vende a pocos dólares, me sentiriía muy descepcionado. No sé qué opinan ustedes.
Desde el lado de consumidor, la piratería es genial (no buena) peroo ilegal,nos permimte comprar productos muy buenos a bajo costo. Pero, por obviedad, es ilegal y está mal.
Acá en mi ciudad es muy dificil que enicnetres un CD para Pc de lo que sea original, todo es piratería. Y encima quien vende juego s de pc se hace el super negocio: vende cada CD a $20 (más o menos 9 dólares americanos) y la grabación del CD seguro les sale menos de 1 dolar americano.

Saludos


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## Fabian

Lo que no me explico es que suites como _star office _se distribuyan en forma gratuita y se acercan mucho a la calidad de la suite _microsoft._ Los productos de esta última compañía, principalmente los sistemas operativos, tienen gran cantidad de fallas de seguridad y no los considero un buen producto por el cual pagar tanto dinero.


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## mogu

Fabian said:
			
		

> Lo que no me explico es que suites como _star office _se distribuyan en forma gratuita y se acercan mucho a la calidad de la suite _microsoft._ Los productos de esta última compañía, principalmente los sistemas operativos, tienen gran cantidad de fallas de seguridad y no los considero un buen producto por el cual pagar tanto dinero.




Una pequeña corrección. La gratuita es OpenOffice (licencia GPL) , no StarOffice.

Pues supongo que estos productos sobreviven por su calidad , es decir , no se cobra el software pero lo que sí se cobrará será la asistencia técnica necesaria en casi todas las empresas, así como adecuar productos a las necesidades de dichas empresas. De todas formas este software está en contínua desaparición/evolución debido a que el código está liberado y es posible legalmente su modificación. Así vemos la infinidad de distribuciones linux que hay en el mercado , siempre basadas en otras pero con diferencias entre ellas. El resultado de todo esto es la evolución de un producto y los consumidores los que salimos ganando. Muchos organismos oficiales están implantando el software libre y cuantos más usuarios haya más seguro será este tipo de software. Dentro de unos años seguramente lo veremos.

Si cada persona que tiene un ordenador tuviera que haber comprado el sistema operativo seguro que se lo pensaría dos veces y optaría por uno gratuito que no tiene casi nada que envidiar al de Microsoft. Es más , según lo que acabo de decir se puede intuir que la piratería ha favorecido a que más del 90% de los ordenadores trabajen con ese sistema operativo.

Igual se puede desprender del razonamiento anterior que hay ciertos programas que se han convertido en stándares en su campo , como puede ser el Photoshop , Autocad , Matlab... , no conozco a ningún estudiante de cualquier ingeniería que no haya utilizado esos programas en la universidad y todos ellos lo suelen tener en sus casas...pero ¿cómo le vas a pedir a un estudiante que pague cantidades desorbitadas por estos programas? , veo mu bien que una empresa que trabaje y gane dinero con ellos pague las licencias , pero creo que los estudiantes y no profesionales tendrían que tener derecho a aprender con ellos de forma gratuita.

El mundo del software lo catalogo como caso especial , pero al mundo de la música no le doy tregua. Discos ridículamente encarecidos y precios en mi opinión no justificados. El único trabajo  serio es el que hace el artista y al final es el que se lleva menos dinero , tan sólo una ridícula parte de lo que vale el disco. Precisamente en el mundo de la música , al que menos le beneficia la piatería es al artista ya consagrado y afamado , mientras que beneficia a los no conocidos ya que el mayor aporte de dinero viene de los conciertos que dan y está claro que cuanta más gente escuche sus discos más gente irá a los conciertos.

De verdad que no sé cómo estará el tema de la música en otros idiomas , normalmente oigo música en español y os puedo decir que esto es una vergüenza. Cada vez son más los productos enteramente comerciales que se venden , productos preparados para sus dos años de gloria , para enriquecer  y luego tirarlos a la basura cuando pasen de moda y ya nadie se acuerde de ellos , enseguida las compañías se encargarán de crear otro de estos gruos sintéticos para seguir vendiendo .Y es que estos grupos de plástico no conviven con artistas de verdad , sino que les eclipsan ya que están respaldados por empresas con el suficiente dinero para hacerles toda la campaña de marketing .

Sé que he sido bastante duro en algunas de mis opiniones pero os digo de verdad que últimamente me da mucho asco el mundo de la música (bueno , también el de la televisión y algunos otros, pero eso es otra historia...)

Bueno , ya me he hecho un lio pero el caso es que tampoco apoyo la venta de discos piratas en la calle , ya que eso es otra mafia donde los que se enriquecen son los que están en su sillón fumando puros. Si los que ganasen el dinero fueran los inmigrantes que venden esos discos , pues quizá cambiase de opinión.

No sé qué significa para cada uno de vosotros lo que es piratería , por eso no he contado nada de las redes P2P, tampoco sé como están las leyes en vuestros países (en el mío hay un canon sobre cualquier soporte digital , incluidos los cd´s .Así cada vez que compras uno , una pequeña parte va destinada a la sociedad general de autores y así se costean las pérdidas por culpa de la piratería , dicho de otra manera , en España estamos todos considerados presuntos piratas)

Hay tantas cosas que decir que no sé ni por dónde empezar.


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## Fabian

Gracias por la correción Mogu, en realidad me refiero al producto Supreme Office Suite del cual vienen compactos de regalo al comprar hardware y es una excelente opción para el hogar, así con el varo ahorrado se puede uno comprar abarrotes para varias semanas.


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## cuchuflete

I've let a few days go by so I wouldn't let my emotions get in the way of my thinking, but, now, with total calm, let me state that the question itself implies a severe ethical problem.



> ¿la pobreza justifica la compra de productos pirata?



Theft is theft.

Stealing is stealing.

Does poverty give any person the right to enter your home and take what they please, with the justification that you have more than you need?

The question assumes that the thief has enough material wealth to afford a computer or music playback device, so I don't imagine they are lacking food and shelter.  Regardless, robbery is wrong.

Rationalize and justify all you please, and make any assumptions you wish about the economics of the music business.  And then look in the mirror.
If you buy or sell pirated products, you might just spot a thief.

The logic behind the question is so obtuse that, taken to a logical conclusion, it would make one want to pay extra for products produced by a company that is suffering a financial loss!


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## winnie

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Theft is theft.
> 
> Stealing is stealing.
> 
> Does poverty give any person the right to enter your home and take what they please, with the justification that you have more than you need?
> 
> The question assumes that the thief has enough material wealth to afford a computer or music playback device, so I don't imagine they are lacking food and shelter. Regardless, robbery is wrong.
> 
> Rationalize and justify all you please, and make any assumptions you wish about the economics of the music business. And then look in the mirror.
> If you buy or sell pirated products, you might just spot a thief.
> 
> The logic behind the question is so obtuse that, taken to a logical conclusion, it would make one want to pay extra for products produced by a company that is suffering a financial loss!


 
*i fully agree with you*. 
still i've a question: 
why companies  everyday produce more sophisticated copying hardware devices for SOHO market? why softwer houses (i mean BIG ones) implement theirs 'cloning' piecies of software with astonishing features every other day? do you think they do it just to let us make our own CD's/DVD's of 'Aunt Polly is taking her tea?'

it seams to me that there is a lot of hypocrisy in those international companies which, on one side sell us music, movies and whatever saying beware: to copy our goods is piracy and you would be prosecuted, meanwhile on the other side they sell us a plenty of  electronic devices meant for that goal.

i appreciate your comments.


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## cuchuflete

Ciao Winnie,

My comments on theft were not meant to exonerate large companies from condemnation for any of their own unethical practices.  Each of us can and should make a choice: behave with decency, or do what we please with the excuse that "someone else" or "everyone else" does it.

un abbraccio,
C.


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## winnie

thank you for your wise reply chucu!

naturally i fully (again) agree with your opinions.


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## Fabian

pobres pero honrados... las únicas películas que pueden ver son las de televisión abierta, la única música que pueden oír es en la radio comercial y acaso si conservan una vieja consola y algunos discos de vinil que en sus tiempos no eran tan caros... porque no pueden darse el lujo de comprar boletos para el cine, de alquilarse una peli, o de comprarse un disco legal... mis condolencias a los pobres pobres.


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## Citrus

En alguna ocasión este tema salió a relucir en una reunión con amigos. Me impresiona la diferencia en opiniones al respecto. Algunos opinan que la piratería es válida en ciertos productos (programas de computadora, video-juegos) pero no en CD's o en Películas. Muchos dicen "DI NO A LA PIRATERIA", pero en algún momento han comprado productos piratas.

El hecho de que las películas piratas, por ejemplo, salgan a la venta antes de que las originales sean estrenadas en los cines es un ejemplo de lo rápido que la información llega a las manos equivocadas y de lo rápido que se "mueven" los piratas.

En mi opinión la piratería no es ética, producirla o consumirla. Laspersonas que no cuentan con los recursos económicos para obtener los productos originales se justifican en ésto para comprar piratería . . . pero que tan válido es esto???

La colclusión a la que se llegó en la reunión que mencioné fue la siguiente:

Las compañías deben bajar los precios para que la gente pueda tener acceso a los productos originales y dejar de consumir piratería. . . 

Pero si esto pasara, a las compañías no les resultaría redituable su producción . . .

Las compañías suben sus costos debido a que deben amortiguar las perdidas por piratería. 

Entonces, primero debe desaparecer la piratería para que los costos puedan disminuir.

ES UN CIRCULO VICIOSO !!!

Creo que finalmente es una cuestión personal la desición de comprar o no piratería. Y creo que la mayoría de las personas que consumen productos piratas no tienen una conciencia plena de las repercuciones que sus actos tienen en el mercado o en la conciencia general. No es justificación, simplemente lo hacen porqué está a la mano y no creen que afecte a nadie.

I've rambled enough!!!

Creo que parte del éxito que tiene la piratería va de la mano con la ignorancia de la gente. No ignorancia a nivel conocimientos, sino a nivel cultura, ética y responsabilidad social.

Saludos
Citrus


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## ILT

Fabian said:
			
		

> pobres pero honrados... las únicas películas que pueden ver son las de televisión abierta, la única música que pueden oír es en la radio comercial y acaso si conservan una vieja consola y algunos discos de vinil que en sus tiempos no eran tan caros... porque no pueden darse el lujo de comprar boletos para el cine, de alquilarse una peli, o de comprarse un disco legal... mis condolencias a los pobres pobres.



Pues no estoy de acuerdo.  Al menos donde yo vivo es común ver que la sirvienta trae celular (al menos la mía y otras más lo usan con regularidad); además de que como los gastos de mucha gente se dividen de forma diferente a como los dividimos nosotros, yo conozco mucha gente de escasos, muy escasos recursos, que antes que gastar en un restorán le compran la película de moda a sus hijos; y al menos la señora que ocasionalmente me ayuda con el quehacer de la casa me dice que ella compra originales porque las piratas se ven muy feas, además de que porque no quiere que sus hijos piensen que eso está bien y luego de grandes se le vayan a volver rateros.  Dentro de su pobreza es una mujer honrada que así quiere que crezcan sus hijos.

Ahora, en contraparte, cuánta gente de recursos económicos holgados se roba la señal de la antena?  No todos, pero en todas las clases sociales hay rateros y también en todas hay gente honrada; definitivamente es una decisión personal.

Y yo pienso que el precio no debe ser excusa, entonces si no tengo para comprarme un auto del año me lo voy a robar?  No lo creo, de la misma forma, si quiero un chicle y no traigo dinero tampoco lo voy a robar.  Sin importar el valor del producto, robo es robo.


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## Fabian

Decir a la gente "Di no a la pirateria", pero pagarle un salario de miseria  y querer que con eso le alcance para la comida, renta, servicios, ropa, escuela, etcétera, etcétera es una incoherencia... si se ganara suficiente dinero para darse esos gustitos en forma legal pues la cosa sería diferente, así que la pirateria seguirá creciendo mientras más crezca la miseria.  Alguna vez junté todas las cosas que no uso y me fui a un mercado callejero a rematarlas y una niña con unos restos de zapatos sobre los pies pregunta por una par de zapatos de una sobrina mía: "5 pesos" (.45dll) fue mi respuesta, los padres se buscan una moneda en todas las bolsas y por fin encuentran una... la niña se quita los restos de zapatos que traía y los avienta a un terreno baldío, se pone el nuevo par y para no ofenderles les recibo su moneda pero les regalo otro par que me sobraba por ahí... por cierto, en sus manos llevan un cd pirata y usado de .27dll que les venden en el puesto de un lado... claro que la miseria no es la misma en todas partes...en muchas es PEOR.


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## cuchuflete

I love translating said:
			
		

> Ahora, en contraparte, cuánta gente de recursos económicos holgados se roba la señal de la antena? No todos, pero en todas las clases sociales hay rateros y también en todas hay gente honrada; definitivamente es una decisión personal.
> 
> Y yo pienso que el precio no debe ser excusa, entonces si no tengo para comprarme un auto del año me lo voy a robar? No lo creo, de la misma forma, si quiero un chicle y no traigo dinero tampoco lo voy a robar. Sin importar el valor del producto,* robo es robo*.



Gracias ILT,

Has presentado una explicación muy clara.  Estoy totalmente de acuerdo contigo.  La pobreza no justifica el robo.  

If we accept rationalizations as a pretext for theft, we should never complain about the graft and embezzlement commited by elected and appointed government employees. Nor should we tolerate corrupt policemen because they are "underpaid".  Robo es robo.

Un saludo,
Cuchu


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## mogu

I disagree in some parts.



> Robo es robo.




1.- A person who buy a pirate cd isn´t a theft:

Theft is theft: Yes but, in most cases we aren´t speaking about theft but an inmorality matter.we shouldn´t evaluate both facts at same level because are very different things.



> should we tolerate corrupt policemen because they are "underpaid".



2.- No , we shouldn´t. If we ask the first question of the thread  ¿la pobreza justifica la compra de productos pirata?. No, poberty doesn´t justify piratery...but explain it .

I know that we´re talking about different issues but i can´t say just "no" because piratery isn´t the problem but the consequence.

My point is that this question shouldn´t be asked with one word.


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## Benjy

mogu said:
			
		

> I disagree in some parts.
> 1.- A person who buy a pirate cd isn´t a theft:
> 
> Theft is theft: Yes but, in most cases we aren´t speaking about theft but an inmorality matter.we shouldn´t evaluate both facts at same level because are very different things.


as an act in itself, theft is theft and thus if you like (taking the law as our standard) is wrong from an absolute point of view. but if you want to seperate them, i still don't see the justification? it's not as if music/digital media is a necessity, noone is witholding something that one can't live without (ie food or water).





> 2.- No , we shouldn´t. If we ask the first question of the thread  ¿la pobreza justifica la compra de productos pirata?. No, poberty doesn´t justify piratery...but explain it .
> 
> I know that we´re talking about different issues but i can´t say just "no" because piratery isn´t the problem but the consequence.
> 
> My point is that this question shouldn´t be asked with one word.


i'm not sure i totally understand what you are saying :s i agree that the massive usage illegal peer to peer apps is probably at least in part due to the record/film industries total failure to try and use digital delivery as a way to give peopel music cheaper (to start with) and that the sheer volume of piracy has forced them to do something about it (there are a whole bunch of legal paying services you can get these days), but the thing is, now you can have unlimited downloads for 10 pounds a month or whatever. if you are still pirating music i think the excuse for doing so as taken away awhile ago.

ben

edit: ps i tried arguing the pirate side the last tiem on the debate.. it wasn't very convincing lol, there is a thread called file sharing somewhere in this forum


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## traveler

O sea, ¿que es pirateria?
creo que abarca mas que musica, pelis o sofware.


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## zebedee

Como resultado de los tiempos que corren está tomando cada vez más fuerza el "copyleft". Varios artistas españoles - ahora no recuerdo nombres - cuelgan sus trabajos en internet con el propósito de que se pirateen porque dicen que cuánta más gente escuche su música, más fans tendrán en sus conciertos que es donde realmente ellos recauden más dinero para ganarse la vida.

Buscando "copyleft" encontré esta página de una editorial http://www.wumingfoundation.com/italiano/outtakes/copyleft_explicado.html que explica el fenómeno de _copyleft_.

Reproduzco 2 extractos cortos para los que no tienen tiempo de leer toda la página.



> Cuando se inventó el copyright, hace tres siglos, no existía ninguna posibilidad de "copia privada" o de "reproducción sin ánimo de lucro", ya que sólo un editor tenía acceso a la maquinaria tipográfica. Los demás estaban obligados a renunciar al libro si no podían comprarlo. El copyright no era percibido como anti-social, era el arma de un empresario contra otro, no de un empresario contra el público. Hoy la situación ha cambiado drásticamente, el público ya no está obligado a comprar, tiene acceso a la maquinaria (computadores, fotocopiadoras, ... ) y el copyright es un arma que dispara contra la multitud.





> Incluso sin incomodar al Massachussetts Institute of Technology, basta con explicar lo que está pasando con nuestros libros. Un usuario X se conecta a nuestro sitio y descarga, digamos, 54. Si lo hace desde el trabajo o la universidad y lo imprime allí, no se gasta un duro. X lo lee, y le gusta. Le gusta de tal manera que decide regalarlo, y por supuesto no puede presentarse en la fiesta de cumpleaños con un tocho de folios A4. Por tanto, se encamina a la librería y lo compra. Una copia "pirateada" = una copia vendida. Hay quien ha descargado nuestro libro y, a continuación de leerlo, lo ha regalado seis o siete veces. Una copia "pirateada" = varias copias vendidas. Incluso aquellos que no tienen dinero para regalos comentan a otros que han leído el libro y que les ha gustado, con lo que tarde o temprano alguien lo comprará o seguirá el proceso anteriormente descrito (descarga-lectura-compra-regalo). Si hay alguien a quien el libro no le gusta, por lo menos no se habrá gastado ni un céntimo.


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## Ana Raquel

Cuchuflete, all, do you consider P2P as stealing too?


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## cuchuflete

Ana Raquel,

The technology employed is not the issue for me.  Once upon a time, many years ago, I earned a very meagre living as a musician.  Thus I am sensitive to the rights of a performer, regardless of style or quality, to be paid for his or her work.  If a performer puts something on the web with the intent that it be copied, that's fine.  If not, I'm troubled by it.

The same is true of software.  Programmers deserve to be paid for their efforts.

All the pseudo-logic about pricing policies justifying illegal and unethical "taking" do not persuade me.  If a person cannot afford a diamond ring, are they entitled to take one from a store just because the price is high, or the shopkeeper earns a good profit?  Of course not.   Music and application software are no different.  

un saludo,
Cuchu


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## SusieQ

Creo que todos tienen un buen punto.  Pero ahora solo queda preguntar. ¿Alguno de ustedes alguna vez a comprado algún producto pirata?  Ya sea música, películas o software.
Todos sabemos que no es correcto y que en la mayoría de los casos es ilegal, pero no podemos negar también que si no hemos (aunque sea una sola vez) comprado algún producto pirata, tenemos conocimiento de alguien que sí o sino de alguien que se dedica a hacer este tipo de copias.
La verdad no sabría decir qué tipo de situaciones lo hacen correcto o no.  Lo que sí te puedo decir es que aún cuando tenemos una computadora el dinero que tenemos no  nos alcanza para mantener una casa, un bebé y dos adultos (tres si cuentas a la niñera) y que para poder obtener programas y juegos para pc mi esposo siempre prefiere ir a juntarse con el cuate de la sexta avenida que se los vende a una mínima porción de lo que le costaría en una tienda de computación.
Algunos dirían que lo mejor sería entonces privarnos de este tipo de cosas antes de consumir productos piratas.  La pregunta es ¿de verdad lo harían?


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## Benjy

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> All the pseudo-logic about pricing policies justifying illegal and unethical "taking" do not persuade me.  If a person cannot afford a diamond ring, are they entitled to take one from a store just because the price is high, or the shopkeeper earns a good profit?  Of course not.   Music and application software are no different.
> 
> un saludo,
> Cuchu



hmmm it's funny you should say that. i was in a tesco a few minutes ago (supermarket) and the layout is such that you don't have to go through the tills to get out. a walk out (shoplifting) would be so easy. and as i stood in line with my strawberry smoothie i thought "i would never in a million years consider trying to nick this drink, but i have in the past using some pretty messed up moral relativism justified bit torrenting software running into 10000's of dollars". i have since got rid of it all.. it's just funny how we place so much value on the physical aspect of ownsership.


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## SusieQ

I am not justifying anything, but you just have to wonder.  Of course you don't just take the diamond ring because you liked it and cannot afford it, but believe me if there were another way to get the same diamond ring at a fraction of the price without actually stealing it you would do it, right?  With software and stuff people just like the piracy becuase it is very much available for anyone to do it.  Not that it is morally ok to do it, but my guess is that some people just think "well if I can do it why no?"  most of them probably think that if they are not physically stealing something or hurting anyone then why don't just do it?  my guess is that it is a trend and people do it because they have seen other people do it. Like everything else.  And they say they are doing something to try and stop piracy, but I really don't see anything happening. Do you?


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## Fabian

Se dice que la piratería terminará con la industria musical... y ciertamente se podrá extinguir esa industria que hacía millonadas, pero no habrá nada que detenga la creación y distribución de música, NADA. Ya veremos que nuevos caminos toma la industria.

Por otro lado, la música se convierte en un producto desechable, una vez que te aburre ya no sirve y buscas obtener novedades.


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## Benjy

SusieQ said:
			
		

> I am not justifying anything, but you just have to wonder.  Of course you don't just take the diamond ring because you liked it and cannot afford it, but believe me if there were another way to get the same diamond ring at a fraction of the price without actually stealing it you would do it, right?  With software and stuff people just like the piracy becuase it is very much available for anyone to do it.  Not that it is morally ok to do it, but my guess is that some people just think "well if I can do it why no?"  most of them probably think that if they are not physically stealing something or hurting anyone then why don't just do it?  my guess is that it is a trend and people do it because they have seen other people do it. Like everything else.  And they say they are doing something to try and stop piracy, but I really don't see anything happening. Do you?



the point is that there are good value for money legal services avaliable these days (napster musicmatch real et al) but people refuse to use them. if there was an excuse before there certainly isnt now.


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## cuchuflete

To those who's best offer of justification is "lots of people do it", I suggest you tell your spouse to go have an extramarital affair, or your significant other to enjoy intimacy with someone other than you. Why? Because your logic says so: Lots of people do it. It's all around us. If we haven't, yet!, done it ourselves, surely we know gobs of people who have.

And while you are enjoying your situational ethics, please don't neglect your childrens' education. Teach them than stealing is ok, so long as (1) it's cheap and convenient; (2) you are not very likely to get caught; and (3) you have heard some very lame excuses to justify it, and have embraced them.

*Robo es robo.*

To answer another question posed here, when I was an adolescent I recorded, using a "state-of-the-art" Sony reel-to-reel tape deck, a monaural 33rpm vinyl recording of Astrud Gilberto and thought nothing of it. As an adult I have considered the subject, and decided that I was wrong. To err is human; to grow is possible.

un saludo,
Cuchu


----------



## ILT

SusieQ said:
			
		

> Lo que sí te puedo decir es que aún cuando tenemos una computadora el dinero que tenemos no nos alcanza para mantener una casa, un bebé y dos adultos (tres si cuentas a la niñera) y que para poder obtener programas y juegos para pc mi esposo siempre prefiere ir a juntarse con el cuate de la sexta avenida que se los vende a una mínima porción de lo que le costaría en una tienda de computación.



No entiendo, ¿el dinero no alcanza para mantener la casa pero sí alcanza para comprar juegos piratas?

Sin conocer tu situación encuentro que las prioridades no son las mismas que yo tendría, yo primero busco cubrir los gastos de la casa y después lo superfluo o no indispensable.  Yo lo veo de esta forma, ¿de qué me sirve comprar juegos piratas si no tengo para pagar el recibo de la luz y con ella encender la computadora?

Discúlpame por asumir cosas que desconozco, pero es que vemos las cosas de forma diferente.

¡Saludos!

ILT


----------



## Fabian

No se discute que robar es robar, pero aunque hay gente que no es tan pobre prefiere gastar el poco dinero que gana en cosas más útiles que un CD de música original, esa es la realidad en México y supongo que en muchos países igual, porque con lo que cuesta un CD original la gente prefiere comprar:

Leche, fruta, carne, huevo, pan y varias cosillas más, incluyendo su cd pirata


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## Benjy

playing the they are poor people card doesn't wash sorry  i guess i'm just heartless.


----------



## Fabian

Benjy said:
			
		

> playing the they are poor people card doesn't wash sorry  i guess i'm just heartless.


 
Pues no los disculpo pero sí los comprendo, además imaginen que les dijésemos: "oiga, no compre pirata" seguramente nos responden "qué le importa" o "pues deme para un original"


----------



## ILT

Fabian said:
			
		

> No se discute que robar es robar, pero aunque hay gente que no es tan pobre prefiere gastar el poco dinero que gana en cosas más útiles que un CD de música original, esa es la realidad en México y supongo que en muchos países igual, porque con lo que cuesta un CD original la gente prefiere comprar:
> 
> Leche, fruta, carne, huevo, pan y varias cosillas más, incluyendo su cd pirata



¿Entonces sólo los pobres consumen productos piratas?  ¿Son los pobres los causantes de la piratería?

Definitivamente no, robar es robar, y para quien cree que hacerlo está bien y se quiere justificar no importa la cantidad de dinero disponible.

Pero lástima, porque siguen estando en el error, robando lo que por derecho corresponde a otros.  Quizás lo que la gente necesita es perder su empleo por causa de la piratería, o sufrir sus consecuencias de forma directa, para entenderlo; qué lástima que haya quienes no aprenden de otro modo 

ILT


----------



## Silvia

Cuchu, I understand your strong position about this subject, but please consider the following.

I can go to the library and borrow a book, a cd, a dvd or a videotape. I can do it for personal use and I'm entitled to do so. If I share the listening, watching or reading with someone else, I'm not committing any crime.

I can borrow the same book, cd, dvd, videotape all year long, as long as I need it. I can take it back and then take it again. Over and over.
For the same reasons I can continue sharing. This is the law where I live, and I'm grateful it hasn't changed yet, though there are strong pressures coming from high circles to stop libraries from free lending. Free lending libraries are one of Europe's prides.

If someone is not rich enough, his/her knowledge shouldn't be disadvantaged. We have a right to education not depending on how big our wallet is, luckily. 

Media -  be it a book, or a newspaper, or a music cd, or a dvd movie - are an important source for our personal growth and in our era, we cannot prevent people from sharing. This is what we are trying to do here too.

I remember those days when we would record what was on the radio, no one ever said it was forbidden at the time, nor I think it is now. As it is not forbidden to record from tv.

Anything free is a big  for me. Quality is another matter.

I don't agree with people trying to profit from other people's work, obviously. That's a different matter too.

Thanks for letting me have my say.


----------



## cuchuflete

Let's review all the powerful logic presented so far to explain, justify, rationalize and otherwise excuse theft:

1. Everybody does it, so it's part of the culture.   
2. Poor people can't afford to pay the asking price for legitimate merchandise.
3. The software industries and some music companies make lots of money.

Answers: 

1. If you are dishonest, this is all the excuse you need.  Sleep well.
2. Poor people cannot afford a Mercedes Benz, so I suppose that's reason enough to steal one.
3. If your ethics are sufficiently thin that this suits you, any excuse will do.

Don't we have a more logical or creative ladrón in the house?  Those are all pretty weak.

It's* not* about the music business.  It's about buying stolen property.  If your personal values allow this, so be it.  And, while you're at it, use an expression like
"He's pretty honest."  To me that signals a person who cheats, lies,  and steals only some of the time.  No thanks.

C.


----------



## Benjy

but it think there is a difference between libraries and p2p. the book always belongs to the library. you have no claim on its contents in anyway shape or form. the library has paid for those books. it has the right given to it to lend them. i love free libraries too  but i don't know of many libraries (at least in england) that have the top 40 singles on them for free listening. or the latest movies on dvd. or expensive rendering/editing software liek adobe premiere etc etc.

or have i completely misunderstood your point?


----------



## cuchuflete

> Por otro lado, [s]la música[s] *los valores* se convierten en un producto desechable, una vez que te aburre ya no sirve y buscas obtener novedades.
> _


Así lo veo.

C.


----------



## Benjy

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Let's review all the powerful logic presented so far to explain, justify, rationalize and otherwise excuse theft:
> 
> 1. Everybody does it, so it's part of the culture.
> 2. Poor people can't afford to pay the asking price for legitimate merchandise.
> 3. The software industries and some music companies make lots of money.
> 
> Answers:
> 
> 1. If you are dishonest, this is all the excuse you need.  Sleep well.
> 2. Poor people cannot afford a Mercedes Benz, so I suppose that's reason enough to steal one.
> 3. If your ethics are sufficiently thin that this suits you, any excuse will do.
> 
> Don't we have a more logical or creative ladrón in the house?  Those are all pretty weak.
> 
> It's* not* about the music business.  It's about buying stolen property.  If your personal values allow this, so be it.  And, while you're at it, use an expression like
> "He's pretty honest."  To me that signals a person who cheats, lies,  and steals only some of the time.  No thanks.
> 
> C.



that's the problem. you can't rationalise something which is in an absolute sense morally wrong. especially when it isn't a necessity to life. the only way out of the trap is move to the other extreme and say that ethics is a bunch of crap and that right and wrong doesn't exist. i don't think anyone really believes that and so it's going to be hard trying to find someone who will argue it with conviction.


----------



## SusieQ

The thing is that people usually like to pay the least amount of money for things, and if they can get it for free, they will probably go that way regardless if it's legal or not.


----------



## Benjy

SusieQ said:
			
		

> The thing is that people usually like to pay the least amount of money for things, and if they can get it for free, they will probably go that way regardless if it's legal or not.



and its a crying shame too. i sometimes wonder if humanity as a whole is capable of linking the problems it has to the values it espouses.


----------



## Silvia

Benjy said:
			
		

> but it think there is a difference between libraries and p2p. the book always belongs to the library. you have no claim on its contents in anyway shape or form. the library has paid for those books. it has the right given to it to lend them. i love free libraries too  but i don't know of many libraries (at least in england) that have the top 40 singles on them for free listening. or the latest movies on dvd. or expensive rendering/editing software liek adobe premiere etc etc.
> 
> or have i completely misunderstood your point?


 Ok, I have this wonderful cd, which I paid, and I want to share it with you. I'll burn a copy for you, so that you can listen to it. The copy is obviously mine, so remember it's called Peter  (that's an Italian joke "Pietro, torna indietro" = Peter, come back"), but don't worry... take your time  I don't need it right away.

We have to make a distinction now among moral, ethic and against the law, they don't mean the same thing, unless we want to be superficial.

Ben, I hope I made my point


----------



## SusieQ

I love translating said:
			
		

> No entiendo, ¿el dinero no alcanza para mantener la casa pero sí alcanza para comprar juegos piratas?
> 
> Sin conocer tu situación encuentro que las prioridades no son las mismas que yo tendría, yo primero busco cubrir los gastos de la casa y después lo superfluo o no indispensable. Yo lo veo de esta forma, ¿de qué me sirve comprar juegos piratas si no tengo para pagar el recibo de la luz y con ella encender la computadora?
> 
> Discúlpame por asumir cosas que desconozco, pero es que vemos las cosas de forma diferente.
> 
> ¡Saludos!
> 
> ILT


No digo que andemos en extrema probreza y que antes de ir al super a comprar la comida voy a ir a comprar un montón de discos para la compu.  Para nada.  Lo que quise decir es que después de hacer todos los gastos de fin de mes, con lo poco que nos queda para gustitos (que es realmente poco) nos sale mucho más barato y más conveniente conseguir una pelicula pirata (y no digo que lo hagamos todo el tiempo ni que está correcto) que dos entradas para el cine o un juego original.
Se que estoy justificando cosas que no son correctas, y que realmente no debería ser así, pero en lo que me consigo un trabajo que me deje el suficiente dinero para conseguirme un directv que puedo hacer?
Y tampoco digo que está bien enseñarle a mi hijo ha hacer este tipo de cosas, pero yo espero que con el tiempo el también pueda distinguir lo bueno de lo malo, las areas grises de la vida y no depender tanto de las decisiones (malas decisiones) que sus padres hicieron cuando él apenas y podía hablar.
A mí no me vez justificando mis acciones por cosas que hicieron mis padres cuando eran jovenes.  Uno es el único responsable de las decisiones que toma y de las cosas que uno decide o no hacer.


----------



## Benjy

Silvia said:
			
		

> Ok, I have this wonderful cd, which I paid, and I want to share it with you. I'll burn a copy for you, so that you can listen to it. The copy is obviously mine, so remember it's called Peter  (that's an Italian joke "Pietro, torna indietro" = Peter, come back"), but don't worry... take your time  I don't need it right away.
> 
> We have to make a distinction now among moral, ethic and against the law, they don't mean the same thing, unless we want to be superficial.
> 
> Ben, I hope I made my point



hehe.. now i see what you are saying. 

when you by a cd you by a licence to a copy of that music. when you redistribute it by any means be it electronic or physical by coping it you are breaking the law. you was to give it away.. go for it. but you can't copy it. you don't own the intellectual property you own the right to use a copy of it.

that is liek buying a merc and saying well now i have one i should have the right to another and be able to give it to a friend at no further cost. silly i know.. but the two are equilvalent


----------



## SusieQ

Benjy said:
			
		

> that is liek buying a merc and saying well now i have one i should have the right to another and be able to give it to a friend at no further cost. silly i know.. but the two are equilvalent


 
I really don't think it is the same thing.  I honestly think that these type of things cannot be applied to everything we can own or purchase.  There is a difference between car and cd.  The reason for the questioning is because you can copy a cd, or a dvd but you cannot copy a car.  So I think the issue of theft is theft is right but if you are able to copy a song you like and then make a compilation of songs you like and then give them away... As long as you are not asking to be paid for it there should not be a problem


----------



## Benjy

SusieQ said:
			
		

> I really don't think it is the same thing.  I honestly think that these type of things cannot be applied to everything we can own or purchase.  There is a difference between car and cd.  The reason for the questioning is because you can copy a cd, or a dvd but you cannot copy a car.  So I think the issue of theft is theft is right but if you are able to copy a song you like and then make a compilation of songs you like and then give them away... As long as you are not asking to be paid for it there should not be a problem



no. no nonononoononono. have you ever directed a film? written a program? produced a song? intellectual property represents the same thing as physical property. an investement. if you want to reap the benefits of others investements then you should be willing to pay for them or have the good grace to go without them.


----------



## Silvia

Benjy said:
			
		

> when you by a cd you by a licence to a copy of that music. when you redistribute it by any means be it electronic or physical by coping it you are breaking the law. you was to give it away.. go for it. but you can't copy it.


Not where I live. I can make a copy for personal use. And it is plausible, too. Another example. Many of us play cd's in a car stereo and we are often concerned about them, if we keep them in a car. The risk is they can steal your cd's from the car or the car goes on fire! Therefore... it is wise to make a copy! Also, there are legal sites on the web where you can download covers, and where they explain that a copy for personal archive is allowed.


----------



## Benjy

Silvia said:
			
		

> Not where I live. I can make a copy for personal use. And it is plausible, too. Another example. Many of us play cd's in a car stereo and we are often concerned about them, if we keep them in a car. The risk is they can steal your cd's from the car or the car goes on fire! Therefore... it is wise to make a copy! Also, there are legal sites on the web where you can download covers, and where they explain that a copy for personal archive is allowed.



maybe i wasn't clear. i buy an album that i like. i make a copy for my use. i also rip it to mp3 so i can enjoy it on the pc without the cd in the drive. all of this is legal. its when you start sharing your copies with people who havent purchased there own rights to the music that it becomes illegal.

and of course.. if a singer puts his music up for free there is no problem at all  or if a website has a deal with the artist and has obtained the right to freely distrisbute his material then thats fine as well.

the point is is that as long as the person owning the intellectual property gets what the law entitles them to thats fine. but when you copy material and you have no right to do so and you try and justify it somehow, thats where i take exception.


----------



## ILT

But one thing is to make ONE copy for personal use and another totally different is to make copies to make a profit from them or for preventing the rightful owner of the rights from receiving the corresponding revenue from those copies.

Totally agree with Benjy

ILT


----------



## SusieQ

Benjy said:
			
		

> no. no nonononoononono. have you ever directed a film? written a program? produced a song? intellectual property represents the same thing as physical property. an investement. if you want to reap the benefits of others investements then you should be willing to pay for them or have the good grace to go without them.


 
Why would I be reaping the benefits of anyone just by copying some songs.  Whose to say that the person that I give this copy or that hears the copy that i have is not going to purchase the original if they can afford it.  I would be stealing from them if I were to ask to be paid for such copy.  If I am not asking for money or anything then I am not stealing from anyone. It's like making a fotocopy of a few pages of a book.  As long as i am not copying the whole book and then reselling it, then I am not really stealing anything, am I?


----------



## Benjy

SusieQ said:
			
		

> Why would I be reaping the benefits of anyone just by copying some songs.  Whose to say that the person that I give this copy or that hears the copy that i have is not going to purchase the original if they can afford it.  I would be stealing from them if I were to ask to be paid for such copy.  If I am not asking for money or anything then I am not stealing from anyone. It's like making a fotocopy of a few pages of a book.  As long as i am not copying the whole book and then reselling it, then I am not really stealing anything, am I?


you are listening to the song. that is the benefit. that is what you pay for when you buy the cd. otherwise you would just be paying for the cd.


i walk into a store. i pick up the cd and walk out with it. i am not selling it. is this stealing?


----------



## azram

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Let's review all the powerful logic presented so far to explain, justify, rationalize and otherwise excuse theft:
> 
> 1. Everybody does it, so it's part of the culture.
> 2. Poor people can't afford to pay the asking price for legitimate merchandise.
> 3. The software industries and some music companies make lots of money.
> 
> Answers:
> 
> 1. If you are dishonest, this is all the excuse you need. Sleep well.
> 2. Poor people cannot afford a Mercedes Benz, so I suppose that's reason enough to steal one.
> 3. If your ethics are sufficiently thin that this suits you, any excuse will do.
> 
> Don't we have a more logical or creative ladrón in the house? Those are all pretty weak.
> 
> It's* not* about the music business. It's about buying stolen property. If your *personal values* allow this, so be it. And, while you're at it, use an expression like
> "He's pretty honest." To me that signals a person who cheats, lies, and steals only some of the time. No thanks.
> 
> C.


erm, exactly who are you to question peoples 'personal values' just because they may buy the odd pirated cd or software program?
i don't really care for meaningless pseudo-philosophical arguments that say "robo es robo y punto, blah blah", which are usually just perpetuated by people who either a) have a vested interest in things staying as they are, or b) are sanctimonious hypocrites whose *selective morality* is ridiculous and annoying.
maybe you don't cheat, lie or steal ever, but i doubt it. or maybe you just define those concepts in a different way (one that makes you sleep easier at night).
i wonder how people who, for example, pay taxes to a government that exploits, invades, robs, kills and murders justify it to themselves? (if they even care). how does anyone really justify their comfortable western lifestyle when millions are dying from needless poverty in the third world? 
hey, but let's not bother about all that because at this very moment some evil, morally corrupt, lowlife scum is downloading the latest piece of souless, comercial pop dirt on his pc.
i hope he burns in hell for his sins.
love, azram (computer programmer and semi-professional musician)


----------



## ILT

In México there's a limit as to the number of pages that can be photocopied from a book, I think it's 20 pages or 5%, whichever is smaller, and then there's a license that has to be paid by the copying establishments to have the right to do it.  All other photocopies are illegal.

I agree with this policy.  The author(s) put a lot of effort, time, research and study into his/her work, the rightful thing is for the author to be paid for all that work.  By copying the book one is preventing the author and the editorial company (who takes the economic risk of printing and distributing the book) from receiving a revenue that is rightfully theirs.

ILT


----------



## Benjy

azram said:
			
		

> erm, exactly who are you to question peoples 'personal values' just because they may buy the odd pirated cd or software program?
> i don't really care for meaningless pseudo-philosophical arguments that say "robo es robo y punto, blah blah", which are usually just perpetuated by people who either a) have a vested interest in things staying as they are, or b) are sanctimonious hypocrites whose *selective morality* is ridiculous and annoying.
> maybe you don't cheat, lie or steal ever, but i doubt it. or maybe you just define those concepts in a different way (one that makes you sleep easier at night).
> i wonder how people who, for example, pay taxes to a government that exploits, invades, robs, kills and murders justify it to themselves? (if they even care). how does anyone really justify their comfortable western lifestyle when millions are dying from needless poverty in the third world?
> hey, but let's not bother about all that because at this very moment some evil, morally corrupt, lowlife scum is downloading the latest piece of souless, comercial pop dirt on his pc.
> i hope he burns in hell for his sins.
> love, azram (computer programmer and semi-professional musician)



ahh the last classic argument. you do x and it's worse than y. so y must be ok. that doesn't justify anything. and from a logical standpoint has no real meaning anyways when x and y are not connected. the discussion isn't about governments or third world debt and using them to justify something totally unrelated is a pretty poor way to try and win a debate. using the same logic i should be able to kill you because somewhere else in the world there are others who have killed more than one person. your unwarrented venom is not appreciated.


----------



## SusieQ

Benjy said:
			
		

> i walk into a store. i pick up the cd and walk out with it. i am not selling it. is this stealing?


 
If it's the original thing that you pay for and then you would like to sell it that is ok.  You already paid your share to the owners.  But if I make a copy from my original cd with no intention of selling it at all, just for me or to give to someone.  I am not saying that you should go to a store and steal the cd.  But if you have the means (a computer, burner, etc.) and you just don't want to pay for the whole cd when you just like one song.  Why can't I just download the song that I like and make my own cd.  And then make copies of such cd and give them to all my friends.


----------



## Benjy

SusieQ said:
			
		

> If it's the original thing that you pay for and then you would like to sell it that is ok.  You already paid your share to the owners.  But if I make a copy from my original cd with no intention of selling it at all, just for me or to give to someone.  I am not saying that you should go to a store and steal the cd.  But if you have the means (a computer, burner, etc.) and you just don't want to pay for the whole cd when you just like one song.  Why can't I just download the song that I like and make my own cd.  And then make copies of such cd and give them to all my friends.



 let me try again. why is the price of a cd with music on more expensive than the price of a blanc cd?


----------



## azram

Benjy said:
			
		

> ahh the last classic argument. you do x and it's worse than y. so y must be ok. that doesn't justify anything. and from a logical standpoint has no real meaning anyways when x and y are not connected. the discussion isn't about governments or third world debt and using them to justify something totally unrelated is a pretty poor way to try and win a debate. using the same logic *i should be able to kill you because somewhere else in the world there are others who have killed more than one person.* your unwarrented venom is not appreciated.


 
with this statement you are doing exactly the same thing that you've just accused me of: ie, pushing an argument to its supposed logical extreme to prove a point. but the thing is that i never actually said that 'y' was okay... you seem to have just presumed this by yourself.
i am not trying to justify anything and certainly couldn't care or less about winning a debate (strange how you jumped to that conclusion), just merely pointing out the obvious hypocrisy in an argument that basically wants to say: i think that piracy is immoral because it's illegal and if you don't then you're obviously immoral too.
my point is: if you do x and it's worse than y, why do you only concern yourself with saying that people who do y have no values, whilst apparently totally ignoring x?
btw: passive (unwarranted) aggression, nasty sarcasm and trying to ridicule someone else's argument just because it's in direct conflict with your own is not appreciated either.
i see that you are a 'moderator' so I guess you'll probably ban me or call me a 'troll' now anyway...


----------



## DDT

azram said:
			
		

> with this statement you are doing exactly the same thing that you've just accused me of: ie, pushing an argument to its supposed logical extreme to prove a point. but the thing is that i never actually said that 'y' was okay... you seem to have just presumed this by yourself.
> i am not trying to justify anything and certainly couldn't care or less about winning a debate (strange how you jumped to that conclusion), just merely pointing out the obvious hypocrisy in an argument that basically wants to say: i think that piracy is immoral because it's illegal and if you don't then you're obviously immoral too.
> my point is: if you do x and it's worse than y, why do you only concern yourself with saying that people who do y have no values, whilst apparently totally ignoring x?
> btw: passive (unwarranted) aggression, nasty sarcasm and trying to ridicule someone else's argument just because it's in direct conflict with your own is not appreciated either.
> i see that you are a 'moderator' so I guess you'll probably ban me or call me a 'troll' now anyway...




First of all I'd like to invite you to have a look at WR rules you can find inside a sticky at the top of each forum's main page. Two main reasons:

1. You will find out that such a harsh tone as yours is *unwarranted* and not appreciated as my colleague pointed out. Without attacking you at all, he's one of the most impartial mods in this website.

2. You will also find out that personal attacks are not welcome in these forums. Please use the PM feature if you have some personal remarks to address.

Moreover I have to consider that sometimes even natives can misunderstand each other for I cannot read any accusation of «pushing an argument to its supposed logical extreme to prove a point»...I just read a remark about the use of unrelated subjects to support your logic.

If you're after a dialogue based on the meeting between different positions your posts are welcome.
If you cannot accept polite disagreement with your ideas, rules etc. you don't have to beg to be banned, such a confrontational tone leads nowhere

DDT, moderator


----------



## Fabian

La cosa está tan grave en México que se introducen productos chinos que imitan a los tradicionales mexicanos como guitarras de Paracho Michoacán, diversas artesanías y aún existe un tipo de chile de origen mexicano sembrado y cultivado en China pero con peor calidad y de contrabando.... a la gente ya no le importa de dónde vienen las cosas (¡el mexicano compra productos chinos que piratean lo mexicano!), lo que le importa es ahorrar lo más que pueda porque el dinero no alcanza y claro como dice el señor Cuchuflete, *los valores se convierten en un producto desechable*, pero la necesidad es más grande, así que ... ¿soluciones? ¿dónde están las soluciones reales? necesitamos proponer soluciones viables y no utopías.


----------



## azram

actually, after reading my first post again i think you may be right to an extent about the harshness.
i have asperger's syndrome and sometimes go off on one without realising fully what i am saying.
sorry for any offence caused.
bye, azram.

ps. i think you should read the statement about logical extremes again to understand it better.


----------



## SusieQ

Fabian said:
			
		

> La cosa está tan grave en México que se introducen productos chinos que imitan a los tradicionales mexicanos como guitarras de Paracho Michoacán, diversas artesanías y aún existe un tipo de chile de origen mexicano sembrado y cultivado en China pero con peor calidad y de contrabando.... a la gente ya no le importa de donde vienen las cosas (¡el mexicano compra productos chinos que piratean lo mexicano!), lo que le importa es ahorrar lo más que pueda porque el dinero no alcanza y claro como dice el señor Cuchuflete, *los valores se convierten en un producto desechable*, pero la necesidad es más grande, así que ... ¿soluciones? ¿dónde están las soluciones reales? necesitamos proponer soluciones viables y no utopías.


 
Aquí en Guate ocurre lo mismo.  No puedes dar un paseo por el centro sin ver unos 20 puestos de cds piratas, otros 30 de ropa de contrabando, pero las autoridades no hacen mayor cosa por detener este tipo de situaciones.  Hay veces en que ves a los mismos polis comprando cds chafas en la sexta avenida.  Aunque no puedo negar que de vez en cuando si tratan de cachar a alguien en la movida.  Aunque si me lo preguntan a mí las autoridades no hacen mayor cosa porque no le dan mayor importancia al problema.  Y supongo que en la mayoría de países es parecida la situación.


----------



## charmedboi82

Benjy said:
			
		

> you are listening to the song. that is the benefit. that is what you pay for when you buy the cd. otherwise you would just be paying for the cd.
> 
> 
> i walk into a store. i pick up the cd and walk out with it. i am not selling it. is this stealing?



Is it stealing if I purchase the CD and mass produce copies at my own expense that I hand out without charge but with a smile?


----------



## Narda

Thank you Cuchu!  I totally agree with you, theft is theft and it is for us to choose to behave decently and honorably or not.


----------



## Ana Raquel

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> If a performer puts something on the web with the intent that it be copied, that's fine. If not, I'm troubled by it.


Thanks for the answer.
How could we know which ones of the products offered in a P2P programme were put on the net by their performers to be copied?


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## charmedboi82

Ana Raquel said:
			
		

> Thanks for the answer.
> How could we know which ones of the products offered in a P2P programme were put on the net by their performers to be copied?



Add to that list:
Live performances of songs, do they count?

Products that could very well have been out long enough to no longer be bound by these 'rules'/'laws'?

Products that CANNOT be purchased in the 'country of download' and CANNOT be purchased online (i.e., this person is willing to pay for the product but has no access to it due to ridiculous marketing practices)?

Television shows that have already aired in the country of download?


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## Benjy

charmedboi82 said:
			
		

> Is it stealing if I purchase the CD and mass produce copies at my own expense that I hand out without charge but with a smile?



if you put other peoples intellectual property on it without permission then yes. its stealing. how hard is it? property is property.


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## Fabian

in





			
				Benjy said:
			
		

> if you put other peoples intellectual property on it without permission then yes. its stealing. how hard is it? property is property.


 
Hi Benjy according to your comment, let me ask you something... ¿have you ever asked permission for using that picture of your avatar, a tiger, which is a famous copyrighted cartoon called HOBBES and created by Bill Waterson? ....then are you stealing?

If some of you don't know that cartoon just make a search in internet: Calvin and Hobbes.

Una pregunta para los demás, ¿de dónde tomaron la imagen para su avatar? si no es propia, ¿pidieron permiso al autor para usarla?  meditémoslo un poco.


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## DDT

charmedboi82 said:
			
		

> Is it stealing if I purchase the CD and mass produce copies at my own expense that I hand out without charge but with a smile?



Some prime ministers or presidents often happen to smile while talking about wars they started because of (basically) economical reasons. That doesn't change the fact they're "legalised" criminals. Crime against the mankind, of course.
That said, I don't see how a smile can change the fact of being "outlaw"...

DDT


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## DDT

Fabian said:
			
		

> Hi Benjy according to your comment, let me ask you something... ¿have you ever asked permission for using that picture of your avatar which is a famous copyrighted cartoon called HOBBES? ....then are you stealing?
> 
> If some of you don't know that cartoon just make a search in internet: Calvin and Hobbes.



I consider a large part of the pictures being used as avatars are illegal then.
Your post really looks like a personal attack towards a member, which is NOT WELCOME AT ALL in these forums.
I imagine you might have been bothered by the fact that Benjy, one of the most impartial mods in these forums, has recently deleted some of your fully off topic threads or replies.
You're not a new comer so that you might be already aware of rules.
You can choose to respect WR rules and its mods or to move to other forums in the web where you're free to directly attack like that.

DDT, moderator


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## Benjy

Fabian said:
			
		

> Hi Benjy according to your comment, let me ask you something... ¿have you ever asked permission for using that picture of your avatar which is a famous copyrighted cartoon called HOBBES? ....then are you stealing?



i would just like to point out that such minor use of something is permitted under fair use in copyright laws...

http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyright_and_Fair_Use_Overview/chapter9/9-b.html#3

in case you feel like reading 

if this is your best effort to justify to software/music piracy...


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## Fabian

ections





			
				DDT said:
			
		

> I consider a large part of the pictures being used as avatars are illegal then.
> Your post really looks like a personal attack towards a member, which is NOT WELCOME AT ALL in these forums.
> I imagine you might have been bothered by the fact that Benjy, one of the most impartial mods in this forums, has recently deleted some of your fully off topic threads or replies.
> You're not a new comer so that you might be already aware of rules.
> You can choose to respect WR rules and its mods or to move to other forums in the web where you're free to directly attack like that.
> 
> DDT, moderator


 

No way man, please don't attach me "attacks", I'm just making a fair question...that's it.


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## Fabian

Some pictures I was using hadn't been made for me, so I'll start changing my avatar for some image of my own...
Como piratear es robar (o tomar, adueñarse de las cosas de los demás sin permiso ) sólo usaré imágenes de mi propia creación.


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## Ana Raquel

In case my question to cuchuflete has been misinterpreted, I find impossible to object his/her reasoning.
My question is true, I'd like to know how to differenciate what is put on the net to be copied.


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## Fabian

Benjy said:
			
		

> i would just like to point out that such minor use of something is permitted under fair use in copyright laws...
> 
> http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyright_and_Fair_Use_Overview/chapter9/9-b.html#3
> 
> in case you feel like reading
> 
> if this is your best effort to justify to software/music piracy...


 
but Benjy, anyways in the 2nd yellow square titled: 
*"Too Small For Fair Use: The De Minimis Defense"*
it says that "..._there is no bright line test for determining a de minimis use." _so who can determine which is a small piece? only a court?

Have a nice time!


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## Benjy

Fabian said:
			
		

> but Benjy, anyways in the 2nd yellow square titled:
> *"Too Small For Fair Use: The De Minimis Defense"*
> it says that "..._there is no bright line test for determining a de minimis use." _so who can determine which is a small piece? only a court?
> 
> Have a nice time!



de minimis isn't the thing that puts it under fair use. the nature of the usage, the quantity used and the possible impact on revenus (market of the original). my use of hobbes as an avatar passes all three easily. the argument doesn't even bear replying to, honestly. 

lastly if it passes the de minimis test it isnt even called fair use. 

clutching at straws me thinks, in an attempt to justify the unjustifiable.


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## cuchuflete

Ana Raquel said:
			
		

> In case my question to cuchuflete has been misinterpreted, I find impossible to object his/her reasoning.
> My question is true, I'd like to know how to differenciate what is put on the net to be copied.


Ana Raquel,

Your question is a good one, and I do not have a magic answer to address the intent of every person who puts content on a web site.  However, many artists who do so with the intent that their "public" download and copy often say so in interviews.  Your concern for this issue shows that you are trying to behave decently.  I salute and applaud you for that.

If the content has been posted by someone other than the artist, it might be safe to assume that this has most often been done without permission.  There will be exceptions, as in the case of someone who has followed an explicit or implicit 'invitation" to copy a work, and subsequently made it available to others.  

I wish I could give you a simple "yes" or "no", but that is not possible.  

un saludo,
Cuchu


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## cuchuflete

Here's where it began:



> ¿la pobreza justifica la compra de productos pirata?
> __



From there we have digressed into attacks on the economic structure of an industry, from someone who has yet to establish credentials as one who can read a balance sheet or P&L with comprehension, to impassioned wailing about the lamentable inability of the poor to have whatever they want, to a flimsy attack on the use of a graphic.

The copyright laws speak clearly to this point. The use of the avatar causes no economic harm to its inventor; to the contrary, it helps the value of the brand. This is exactly the opposite of the effect of piracy on an artist. 

I'd like to say "nice try", but it isn't even that. It looks like a desperate flailing to compensate for the lack of any decent argument. However, it did bring something useful to the discussion: the topic of legal protections for intellectual property. Most civilized nations, including those of every forero who has participated in this discussion, have such laws. 

I'll offer a question to address the original question:

If you are inconvenienced by the laws of your own country, should you simply ignore them and do what you please?  

That's just a legal question.  The ethical question has been answered previously.
That answer is "no".


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## Fabian

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Here's where it began:
> 
> 
> 
> From there we have digressed into attacks on the economic structure of an industry, from someone who has yet to establish credentials as one who can read a balance sheet or P&L with comprehension, to impassioned wailing about the lamentable inability of the poor to have whatever they want, to a flimsy attack on the use of a graphic.
> 
> The copyright laws speak clearly to this point. The use of the avatar causes no economic harm to its inventor; to the contrary, it helps the value of the brand. This is exactly the opposite of the effect of piracy on an artist.
> 
> I'd like to say "nice try", but it isn't even that. It looks like a desperate flailing to compensate for the lack of any decent argument. However, it did bring something useful to the discussion: the topic of legal protections for intellectual property. Most civilized nations, including those of every forero who has participated in this discussion, have such laws.
> 
> I'll offer a question to address the original question:
> 
> If you are inconvenienced by the laws of your own country, should you simply ignore them and do what you please?
> 
> That's just a legal question. The ethical question has been answered previously.
> That answer is "no".


 
Todo lo que está en desacuerdo con ustedes lo ven como ataque, y ustedes mismos empezaron a discutir que robar es robar, es decir las cuestiones morales, así que yo no me desvié, y yendo a ese punto, defienden arduamente que no se deben tomar las cosas de los demás y claro, tomar sin permiso un personaje que a otro le costó su trabajo e ingenio crear para que yo llegue y lo use por que se me da la gana ¿eso se vale? A decir verdad no se puede debatir con ustedes porque todo lo toman a mal, obviamente no todo el mundo estará de acuerdo con ustedes ni conmigo pero aceptarlo es parte de la discusión inteligente. Y espero no me borren mi comentario porque defiendo mis puntos de vista y aclaro que ¡ no son ataques y ya deje de victimizarse don !


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## DDT

Fabian said:
			
		

> Todo lo que está en desacuerdo con ustedes lo ven como ataque, y ustedes mismos empezaron a discutir que robar es robar, es decir las cuestiones morales, así que yo no me desvié, y yendo a ese punto, defienden arduamente que no se deben tomar las cosas de los demás y claro, tomar sin permiso un personaje que a otro le costó su trabajo e ingenio crear para que yo llegue y lo use por que se me da la gana ¿eso se vale? A decir verdad no se puede debatir con ustedes porque todo lo toman a mal, obviamente no todo el mundo estará de acuerdo con ustedes ni conmigo pero aceptarlo es parte de la discusión inteligente. Y espero no me borren mi comentario porque defiendo mis puntos de vista y aclaro que ¡ no son ataques y ya deje de victimizarse don !



Your confrontational attitude leads me to close the thread you started.

DDT


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