# Persian: کہ  for یا



## Alfaaz

*Background:* In this thread, the Urdu usage of کہ for یا was discussed and a brief comparison to Persian was also made. Relevant quotes:


			
				Stranger_ said:
			
		

> ...[ you might know, or you might not know ]
> In Persian: [ shaayad bidaaniid va shaayad (ham) nadaaniid* ~ شاید بدانید و شاید (هم) ندانید ]
> 
> I have noticed that you use "*ki*" to express this probability, but this usage of "*ki*" looks a bit strange to me because it does not occur in Persian - the language from which it has been borrowed.





			
				Alfaaz said:
			
		

> ... The meaning of کہ - _keh_ you are inquiring about in the opening post seems to be the following listed in Urdu Lughat: یا" کی جگہ" ... Another example:
> 
> کوئی ساتھ دے *کہ* نہ ساتھ دے
> یہ سفر اکیے ہی کاٹ لے
> *کہ* ہم بھی مسافر تم بھی مسافر کون کسی کا ہو وے
> کاہے چپ چپ رو وے
> 
> فلم: بدنام 1966





			
				Wolverine9 said:
			
		

> Your source of confusion is that _ki _has two distinct etymologies. The meaning of "that", which you well familiar with, is of Persian origin. However, the meaning of "or" is of Indic origin and is sometimes used instead of _yaa_. The different uses of _ki _have been discussed in some detail in the past.





			
				Qureshpor said:
			
		

> I'd like to know more about the Indic "کہ" that means "or".
> 
> Here is an example from Persian..
> 
> *ای خدا حرفهام رو گوش میدی که نه. میدونم گوش میدی
> *
> همه چیز و هیچ چیز پسری....!





			
				Stranger_ said:
			
		

> I have not ever heard "که نه" but I do have heard: "یا که نه"
> 
> Perhaps in Urdu-Hindi, the "یا" part has been dropped.





			
				Stranger_ said:
			
		

> It is both surprising and interesting to see that Allama Iqbal has used this "ki که" alone in one of his Persian poems.
> 
> سینا است *که *فاران است یا رب چه مقام است این
> هر ذره خاک من چشمی است تماشا مست


Here is another  Persian example from Iqbal, where both meanings of _keh_ mentioned above for Persian & Urdu appear to have been employed:

زد بانگ *کہ* شاہینم و کارم بہ زمین چیست
صحراست *کہ* دریاست تہ بال و پر ماست

از شاہین و ماہی - پیام مشرق

*Questions:*

Is such usage of _keh_ in place of _yaa_ found in Classical or Modern Persian?
The reason for asking is (a Persian speaker) Stranger_'s expression of surprise, as quoted above.

How would forum members translate the couplet from شاہین و ماہی into English?
The reason for asking is that there have been different opinions about translations in the recent thread Persian: کہ.


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## puya

Using 'Ke' instead of 'Ya' is not common in contemporary Farsi. I can not think of any example of such usage.

As for the example that you've mentioned:



> *ای خدا حرفهام رو گوش میدی که نه. میدونم گوش میدی.*



I find it atypical usage of 'ke'
Probably  it's better to be understood like:

O God, it's not a question of whether you listen to me or not. Sure you do listen to me.




> It is both surprising and interesting to see that Allama Iqbal has used this "ki که" alone in one of his Persian poems.



It does not surprise me. I remember while reading his  از خواب گران خیز poem in highschool, our literature teacher told that while Iqbal is a very eloquent poet, sometimes his work may sound odd to Persian ears, as he is not a native speaker.


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## PersoLatin

> .*ای خدا حرفهام رو گوش میدی که نه. میدونم گوش میدی*


كه, here is the same as any other كه i.e. it is NOT or:

اى خدا O God,
حرفهام رو گوش ميدى do you listen to me (rhetorcal),
كه نه [I know] that you don't,
ميدونم گوش ميدى I know you do

Whereas, when both sides of كه are negative, the sense of *or* seems to creep in, but in English only. So if it was:
اى خدا حرفهام رو گوش نمیدی که نه. میدونم گوش میدی which is the sample as اى خدا، حرفهام رو گوش نميدى كه نده، ميدونم گوش ميدى it would mean: [I don't care] if/that you listen to me *or* not, I know you do.

These are the same, which are typical, especially in contemporary Persian:
نمياى كه نيا I don't care if/that you come *or* not = do I care if/that you come *or* not
نميخورى كه نخور i don't care if/that you eat *or* not. = do I care if/that you eat *or* not.

Another version:
افتاد كه افتاد - he fell [so what] that he fell - basically I don't care that he fell
رفتى كه رفتى - you left [so what] that you left - basically I don't care that you left.
رفتم كه رفتم - so I left [what do you care]
كه چى؟ - so what?


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## Qureshpor

Would کہ in the lines below mean "or"?

سرود رفته باز آید کہ ناید
نسیمے از حجاز آید کہ ناید
سرآمد روزگارِ* این فقیرے*
دگر دانای راز آید کہ ناید

*اقبال*


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## PersoLatin

Qureshpor said:


> Would کہ in the lines below mean "or"?
> 
> سرود رفته باز آید کہ ناید
> نسیمے از حجاز آید کہ ناید
> سرآمد روزگارِ* این فقیرے*
> دگر دانای راز آید کہ ناید


In English, که here acts as “but”, these to me are questions the poet is asking himself and answering them as: “but it/he won’t”


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## Qureshpor

PersoLatin said:


> In English, که here acts as “but”, these to me are question the poet is asking himself and answering them as: but it/he won’t.


PersoLatin, I don't see how we can fit "but" into these lines.

The bygone melody, will it come back که not come?
Will the zephyr from the Hijaaz come که not come?
Well, this particular fakiir's time has come to an end
Will another knower of secrets come که not come?


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## PersoLatin

I don’t know, is it possible that in Urdu که یا has been shortened to که?
Something like this:
سرود رفته باز آید یا که نیاید


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## Qureshpor

PersoLatin said:


> I don’t know, is it possible that in Urdu که یا has been shortened to که?
> Something like this:
> سرود رفته باز آید یا که نیاید


Well, the problem is that the quote is in Farsi and not Urdu.


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## PersoLatin

Qureshpor said:


> Well, the problem is that the quote is in Farsi and not Urdu.


If it’s in Persian then it can’t be “or", at least not in the Persian I know.


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## taraa

PersoLatin said:


> افتاد كه افتاد - he fell [so what] that he fell - basically I don't care that he fell
> رفتى كه رفتى - you left [so what] that you left - basically I don't care that you left.
> رفتم كه رفتم - so I left [what do you care]
> كه چى؟ - so what?


Hello PersoLatin!
Sorry can you please explain the meanining of 'so what' in these examples?


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## PersoLatin

taraa said:


> Sorry can you please explain the meanining of 'so what' in these examples?


The equivalent to Persian terms حالا که چی؟ or خب که چی؟ or just که چی؟ is, “so what?” Or  “so what!”, I hope that’s what you wanted to know.


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## taraa

PersoLatin said:


> The equivalent to Persian terms حالا که چی؟ or خب که چی؟ or just که چی؟ is, “so what?” Or  “so what!”, I hope that’s what you wanted to know.


Yes, that's what I asked. Many thanks for the great explanation.


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## Qureshpor

PersoLatin said:


> If it’s in Persian then it can’t be “or", at least not in the Persian I know.


Hi PersoLatin, what do you make of this?

نفسم بند نفسهای کسی هست که نیست
بی گمان در دل من جای کسی هست که نیست

غرق رویای خودش پشت همین پنجره ها
شاعری محوتماشای کسی هست که نیست

درخیالم وسط شعر کسی هست که هست
شعر آبستن رویای کسی هست که نیست


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## PersoLatin

^^
Hi Qureshpor, in the above, all three instances of که نیست have the meaning “one who is not“, essentially: one who is not here with me.


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## Qureshpor

From a Persian grammar book, I can quote the following, emphasis being mine.

"For if (=whether) in *indirect questions* use the word *آیا*, the universal word that can introduce all questions (less common though, when a question word is present).

*The word که* (“that”) can still be used in *indirect questions* after the reporting verb, *as in indirect statements, with or without آیا*, or can be dropped. *Therefore, you might have که or آیا *or (less commonly) both or neither of them.

مینا به پرویز : (آیا) کجا می روی؟

مینا از پرویز می پرسد/ میپرسید (که) ( آیا) او کجا می رود۔

مینا به دارا : (آیا) به آنجا رفتی؟

مینا از دارا می پرسد/می پرسید (که) (آیا) رفته (است)۔"

I am wondering if in the examples cited by Alfaaz SaaHib, Iqbal has omitted the word آیا and has only left که but still retaining the meaning imparted by آیا. I have no doubt that Iqbal must have had authoritative precedence in Classical Persian poetry to use such constructions. Had the construction that he has used been wrong, he would have been picked upon, not only by his countrymen amongst whom there were many "masters" of the language and authorities on the language in his time but also amongst the scholars of Afghanistan and Iran. This, to the best of my knowledge, has not happened. On the contrary, Iqbal is a towering figure amongst the literary intelligentsia of both Iran and Afghanistan.

Let's take a couple of examples for illustrative purposes. One, a question and the other, a statement.

سینا است که (آیا) فاران است یارب چه مقام است این

هر ذرهء خاکِ من چشمے است تماشا مست

از :  پس چہ باید کرد - اقبال

زد بانگ که شاھینم و کارم به زمین چیست
صحراست که (آیا) دریاست ته بال و پر ماست

از شاہین و ماھی - پیام مشرق - اقبال


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## PersoLatin

I’m afraid I can’t say any more than I have said on the main question.



Qureshpor said:


> مینا به پرویز : (آیا) کجا می روی؟
> 
> مینا از پرویز می پرسد/ میپرسید (که) ( آیا) او کجا می رود۔


These are not right, there’s no need for آیا in interrogating sentences that contain a ‘question word’ like کجا.


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## Qureshpor

PersoLatin said:


> I’m afraid I can’t say any more than I have said on the main question. These are not right, there’s no need for آیا in interrogating sentences that contains a ‘question word’ like کجا.


That's no problem. I too have said what I have said and it is there for posterity.  The reference I have quoted is from Persian – Intermediate Persian: A Grammar and Workbook- Saeed Yousef assisted by Hayedeh Torabi (2014)

There is precidence for a question word with آیا. Check Dehkhoda again.


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## PersoLatin

Qureshpor said:


> The reference I have quoted is from Persian – Intermediate Persian: A Grammar and Workbook- Saeed Yousef assisted by Hayedeh Torabi (2014)


I have no doubt you have quoted it but I doubt very much many would agree with the author of that book, on this matter.


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## PersoLatin

Qureshpor said:


> There is precidence for a question word with آیا. Check Dehkhoda again.


Is it under آیا? Perhaps you could send a link please, hard to search with the phone, until I get home.


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## Qureshpor

PersoLatin said:


> Is it under آیا? Perhaps you could send a link please, hard to search with the phone, until I get home.



مخمور آن دو چشمم آیا کجاست جامی
بیمار آن دو لعلم آخر کم از جوابی

حافظ

آن ترک پری چهره که دوش از بر ما رفت
آیا چه خطا دید که از راه خطا رفت

حافظ

دانی خیال روی تو در چشم من چه گفت
آیا چه جاست این که همه روزه با نمست

سعدی

آیا چگونه می‌گذرد تلخی قفس
بر توتیان که بر شکرستان پریده‌اند

وحشی

I think these should be enough for the time being.


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## PersoLatin

In post 15 you presented 4 examples in modern Persian from what I presume is a modern Persian grammar book & I said 2 of them were wrong & I maintain in modern Persian they are wrong. You have now presented poetry examples from classical Persian to counter what I said. We have been here before as again you are using poetry to prove this latest grammatical conundrum.


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## Qureshpor

Alfaaz said:


> *Background:* In this thread, the Urdu usage of کہ for یا was discussed and a brief comparison to Persian was also made. Relevant quotes:
> Here is another  Persian example from Iqbal, where both meanings of _keh_ mentioned above for Persian & Urdu appear to have been employed:
> 
> زد بانگ *کہ* شاہینم و کارم بہ زمین چیست
> صحراست *کہ* دریاست تہ بال و پر ماست
> 
> از شاہین و ماہی - پیام مشرق
> 
> *Questions:*
> 
> Is such usage of _keh_ in place of _yaa_ found in Classical or Modern Persian?
> The reason for asking is (a Persian speaker) Stranger_'s expression of surprise, as quoted above.
> 
> How would forum members translate the couplet from شاہین و ماہی into English?
> The reason for asking is that there have been different opinions about translations in the recent thread Persian: کہ.



Alfaaz SaaHib, aadaab.

*فارسی فرهنگ عمید *has 19 enteries for که and I have tried my level best to see if the meaning given under any one or more of these entries fit the examples you and I have provided. What I am suggesting below are just some thoughts and not necessarily the final word on the issue. Let's begin with the first example.

دیکشنری آنلاین آبادیس - Abadis Dictionary - معنی که (scroll down to the bottom)

زد بانگ *کہ* شاہینم و کارم بہ زمین چیست
صحراست *کہ* دریاست تہ بال و پر ماست

Based on the book below (Section 1.4), the author is saying, "*The word که ("that")* can still be used in indirect questions after the reporting verb, as in indirect statements, *with or without آیا*, or can be dropped. Therefore, you might have که or آیا or (less commonly) with both or neither of them."

Intermediate Persian

So, I am envisaging the second line as..

آیا صحرا  است (یا) که دریاست ته بال و پر ماست

Moving on to the next quote.

سینا است که فاران است یا رب چه مقام است این
هر ذره خاک من چشمی است تماشا مست

One version of بلکه in the older language was just که. Here که stands for بلکه.

(قید، حرف اضافه) [قدیمی] بلکه: نه از این آمد، بالله نه از آن آمد / که ز فردوس برین وز آسمان آمد (منوچهری: ۲۰۲)

Finally to my quote. Here که has the meaning بلکه (definition 15) or better still البته as per definition number 11 of the dictionary's list.

سرود رفته باز آید کہ ناید
نسیمے از حجاز آید کہ ناید
سرآمد روزگارِ* این فقیرے*
دگر دانای راز آید کہ ناید

I believe, in the subcontinent, these uses of که may have resulted in the Urdu use of که for یا.

وہ جو ہم میں تم میں قرار تھا تمھیں یاد ہو کہ نہ یاد ہو


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## PersoLatin

Qureshpor said:


> زد بانگ *کہ* شاہینم و کارم بہ زمین چیست
> صحراست *کہ* دریاست تہ بال و پر ماست


For what it's worth, both کہs above have the basic meaning of که, as was the intention of Iqbal. To get the context I found the rest of *شاهین و ماهی *and this is my rephrased version & translation:

The young hawk says to the young fish after she takes off:
فریاد زد *که *من شاهینم و روی زمین کارم چیست
صحرا *که* زیر بال و پر من است (همان) دریای توست 

Young hawk cried out (*that*) I am a hawk and what business have I on the ground
The fields *that *are under my wings are like your sea/the sea you were describing to me


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## Alfaaz

I really appreciate everyone's input and the detailed analyses presented in this thread. 


Qureshpor said:


> Alfaaz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> marrish and Qureshpor SaaHibaan: Thanks for the detailed answers!
> 
> 
> 
> You are welcome. Your views on my reply in this thread?
> Persian: کہ  for یا
Click to expand...

 Once again, thank you for your research and informative answers in all threads. Your hypothesis in post #22 seems like a plausible explanation.


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