# FR: would have had to do X / should have done X - devoir



## party girl

I know that "J'aurais du" means "I should have".

I wanted to say "I would have had to" and ended up saying "J'aurais du" as I used "j'aurais" for "I would have" and "du" for "had to" but as this means "I should have" I can't figure out the correct way to say "I would have had to!"  

For example..."If you hadn't arrived in time to babysit *I would have had to* take the children with me."  It can't be J'aurais du or that would mean If you hadn't arrived in time to babysit I should have taken the children with me....and that isn't what I want to say!!!!  Would "Je devrais emmené les enfants" be the solution?

*Moderator note: *multiple threads merged to create this one


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## setsuno

_Il m'aurait fallu _is probably what you are looking for


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## pieanne

Oui, ou "j'aurais été obligé/e", ou "il aurait fallu que je prenne"


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## nineth

The conditional tenses of 'devoir' are really confusing me, in particular the conditionnel passé.  Does

* J'aurais dû étudier*

mean 

*I would have had to study*
          OR
* I should have studied*

If it means one of them, how is the other expressed in French? In English, they are clearly different to me. Since 'devoir' can be "have to", the conditional passé appears to be "would have had to". On a related note, what would "I shall study" translate to? To make matters worse, what would "I should have had to study" translate to?

Merci d'avance.


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## tomorrowinayear

Hello,

Wait for a native to confirm but I believe that:

*J'aurais dû étudier* - I would have had to study.
*J'ai dû étudie*r - I should have studied.
*J'étudierai* - I shall study, although it would sound more natural with an article included... *je l'étudierai*, or less formal, *j'étudierai ça*.

As for 'I should have had to study," I don't believe that sentence is really proper English so translating it to French might not be possible.

Hope that helps!


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## nineth

tomorrowinayear said:


> Hello,
> 
> Wait for a native to confirm but I believe that:
> 
> *J'aurais dû étudier* - I would have had to study.
> *J'ai dû étudie*r - I should have studied.
> *J'étudierai* - I shall study, although it would sound more natural with an article included... *je l'étudierai*, or less formal, *j'étudierai ça*.
> 
> Hope that helps!



Thanks, but the second one does not seem to fit correctly. *J'ai dû étudie*r would translate to "*I had to study*", clearly different from "*I should have studied*"; if you still think it's the latter, what would the former translate to? Somehow, I can't find anything in French to map "should have + <past participle>" to.   In general, the difficulty seems to be due to the fact that people associate "I must", "I have to", "I should" to devoir in present/indicative, but it's not clear which of "I must have studied", "I had to study", "I should have studied" will map to *ai d**û* in past; remarkably, all three have different commonly-used meanings in past, but almost the same in present. Thanks.


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## sejean

I am by no means an expert on the uses of "devoir" but I believe that "j'aurais dû étudier" is "I should have studied" and "j'ai dû étudier" is "I had to study."

Also, I see nothing wrong with "I should have had to..." For example:

I should have had to pay the whole bill, since I invited everyone to dinner, but my friends insisted on splitting the bill.


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## nineth

sejean said:


> Also, I see nothing wrong with "I should have had to..." For example:



Yes, me neither; "I should have had to" seems logical to me, with "should have" and "had to" meaning different things, "had to" can be composed with "should have". A Google search for "I should have had to" (including quotes for exact match) gives 255 million results as well -- not to say that it's proof of correct grammar by itself. It's going to be very interesting to see how it would translate into French; doesn't look easy for anyone other than native speakers.


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## Keith Bradford

I would/should have had to study = j'aurais été obligé d'étudier (no functional difference here between would and should)
I should have studied = j'aurais dû étudier
I would have studied = j'aurais étudié
I had to study = je devais étudier, j'étais obligé d'étudier


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## nineth

Keith Bradford said:


> I would/should have had to study = j'aurais été obligé d'étudier (no functional difference here between would and should)



Is it possible to rewrite this using a conjugation of 'devoir'? Thanks.


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## Thomas1

Yes, it is. You can also say 'j'aurais dû étudier' to mean 'I  would/should have had to study'.

I should have had to study more if I had signed up for the course of X.  [should = would] -- J'aurais dû étudier plus si je m'étais inscrit au  cours chez X.
 
I should have studied more. [I regret not doing it, for instance] --  J'aurais dû étudier
 plus.


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## sejean

> I should have had to study more if I had signed up for the course of X. [should = would]



To me this only makes sense in English as "I would have had to..."

Consider:

"I *should* (not) have had to do x, _because_ y."

"I *would* (not) have had to do x, _if_ y."

_I should not have had to pay for a new transmission since my car was still under warranty._

"Would not have" doesn't make sense here.

_I would not have had to improvise if I had been better prepared_.

"Should not have" doesn't make sense here.

So it seems like this distinction can't be (explicitly) made in French? I guess the rest of the sentence would usually make it clear in any case, so perhaps it's unnecessary.


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## Thomas1

I see what difference you're making here, but that's not what I'm talking about. 
It should be noted that this usage of 'should' has been largely replaced by 'would' today and that if it's used like that, then it's preceded by either 'I' or 'we'. Also, it may be a peculiarity of British English, have a look:


> 5 (British  English, formal) used after I  or we instead of would  for describing what you would do if something else happened first
> If I were asked to work on  Sundays, I should resign.
> http://www.oxfordadvancedlearnersdictionary.com/dictionary/should


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## Oddmania

sejean said:


> To me this only makes sense in English as "I would have had to..."
> 
> Consider:
> 
> "I *should* (not) have had to do x, _because_ y."
> 
> "I *would* (not) have had to do x, _if_ y."
> 
> _I should not have had to pay for a new transmission since my car was still under warranty._
> 
> "Would not have" doesn't make sense here.
> 
> _I would not have had to improvise if I had been better prepared_.
> 
> "Should not have" doesn't make sense here.
> 
> So it seems like this distinction can't be (explicitly) made in French? I guess the rest of the sentence would usually make it clear in any case, so perhaps it's unnecessary.



Hi,

What you said really cleared it all up, and I can think of French equivalent sentences now 

_I should not have had to pay for a new transmission since my car was still under warranty.
_→ Je n'aurais pas dû *avoir à payer*...

_I would not have had to improvise if I had been better prepared_.
→ Je n'*aurais* pas *eu* à improviser...


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## sejean

This is getting confusing!



> 5 (British English, formal) used after I or we instead of would for describing what you would do if something else happened first
> If I were asked to work on Sundays, I should resign.



I'm familiar with that usage of _should_, as in, "I _should_ like to have a house of my own one day." But, at least in common American English, this sentence would always be rendered "I _would_ like to have a house of my own one day." For the purposes of my query, this formal British "should" really means would.

Edit: Oddmania -- thank you! That's very helpful. My mind is not so foggy now.


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## nineth

I started this thread about "J'aurais du etudier" yesterday; based on the responses, it's again not clear whether it means "I should have studied" or "I would have had to study". They both mean different things; "Keith Bradford" says it means the former, but others say it can be used to mean the latter as well.


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## Keith Bradford

Nineth, it depends which way you're translating. No two languages have corresponding terms which work in both directions in every case.

If you want to translate from English to French, my version was right. But if you want to translate the French "J'aurais dû etudier" into English, you have to judge from the context which of the two meanings is intended - not always easy, as you have found.

Think for example of the sentence "I saw a bat". This is impossible to translate into French without knowing the context, whereas the two French sentences "Je scie une batte" and "J'ai vu une chauve-souris" are so simple to do into English that even Google Translate manages it.


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## rkazukiewicz

Keith Bradford said:


> If you want to translate from English to French, my version was right. But if you want to translate the French "J'aurais dû etudier" into English, you have to judge from the context which of the two meanings is intended - not always easy, as you have found.



Ok, so with no context « j’aurais dû [infinitif]» can mean either “I  would have had [infinitive]” or “I should have [past participle].” Is there a reason that “I should have” doesn’t translate to « Je devrais avoir [participe passé] »? To me, that construction makes sense in a word for word way, but it might be more idiomatic than that. 

Thanks!


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## Maître Capello

The direct, word-for-word phrase would actually be a loan translation. The French logic is just different from the English. It is hard to give an exact reason though. I'm afraid you should just learn that when translating “I should have <past participle>”, the phrase _j'aurais dû_ <infinitif> is idiomatic, while _je devrais_ <infinitif passé> isn't.

See also:
FR: I should have known
FR: j'aurais dû faire X / je devrais avoir fait X
X aurait dû + infinitif / X devrait + infinitif passé - Français Seulement forum


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## Oddmania

"_Je devrais_ + <infinitif passé>" _can _be idiomatic depending on the context.

- to stress how the current, present state of something should be: _Tu devrais déjà avoir mangé à cette heure-ci _(i.e. you shouldn't be eating right now); _Tu devrais être parti_ (i.e. you're not supposed to be here), etc.
- especially with _depuis_: _Tu devrais avoir fini depuis longtemps._​


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## Keith Bradford

Oddmania said:


> "_Je devrais_ + <infinitif passé>" _can _be idiomatic depending on the context.
> 
> - to stress how the current, present state of something should be: _... etc_​


These are "You ought to have.../ You should have..." in English.


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