# Coelum (sky) and kalamos/qalam (reed) mean "hollow"?



## sotos

Is the L. _coelum, coelus _(sky, Uranus) cognate or derives from the Gr. _koilos_ (κοίλος, hollow)? Semantically they look close, as in antiquity the sky (with the stars) was usually understood as the inner of a globe turning around the Earth. 
Also, do you think that koilos (κοίλος) is related to the  reed (kalamos), since this is the main and most useful characteristic of the reed?
I don't mean to discuss the possible relation of qalam and kalamos, as it has been discussed in other threads (http://forum.wordreference.com/search.php?searchid=828282) I just add this word to attract the attention of some arab speakers. 

An interesting question is if _koil-_ can turn to _kal-_ . There are indications that it can. In Hesychius we find that _Kail[_...] and _Kailes_ means Sky (http://books.google.gr/books?id=0nM...ce=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false p. 393). Also, the Gr. koilon, koiloma is the equivalent of the L. _cavus _(cave). There is a "L" missing, but this possibly survives in the L. calva, calvus (bald), which is possibly the analog of the Gr. koilos with the meaning the opposite of the concave, i.e. κυρτόν (L.S. κοίλος ΙΙΙ, http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper...betic+letter=*k:entry+group=136:entry=koi=los). 
Notice that koilos and kyrtos (curved) sound similar. Pokorny finds that the Gr. koil- (hollow) comes from the roots *k̂eu-1*, *k̂eu̯ǝ-* : *k̂ū-*, *k̂u̯ā-* which mean "to swell", from which the Gr. κύω, έγ-κυος (pregnant) etc. but κυρτός from *ker-3* (to turn, bend). 
In Hesychius again we find that  kyl- becomes kal- [above link, p. 397  καλίομαι – κυλύομαι (I  turn, roll)], comparable to coelus-kailes. 

Can we assume that koil-, kyl- and kal- converge (possibly by a process of  "folk etymology") to a group of words having the sence of "concave, hollow, bended, curved" and from there to varius meanings like sky, cave, etc?

To assist any thought of sky as a concavity, there are many phrases associating the sky and the koilon. e.g.: In this comments on Aristophanes, "λέγουσι γαρ κοίλον είναι τον ουρανόν ώσπερ του ωού την λεπίδα" (they say that the sky is concave as the shell of the egg).
http://books.google.gr/books?id=BxL...CFYQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=κοίλον ουρανού&f=false, p. 33.


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## berndf

If I read it correctly, Lewis & Short agree with you. _Caelum_ (_coelum_) < _cael _<_ cavilum _< _cavus _which is related to Greek_ κύω, κοῖλος_.


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## aruniyan

sotos said:


> Is the L. _coelum, coelus _(sky, Uranus) cognate or derives from the Gr. _koilos_ (κοίλος, hollow)? Semantically they look close, as in antiquity the sky (with the stars) was usually understood as the inner of a globe turning around the Earth............



_I think its_*Caelum* ? 

how about L. Lacus to Gk. Koilos ?


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## berndf

aruniyan said:


> _I think its_*Caelum* ?


_Caelum_ and _Coelum_ are variant spellings. See L&S reference in my post above,





aruniyan said:


> how about L. Lacus to Gk. Koilos ?


The Greek cognate of _lacus_ is _λάκκος_.


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## aruniyan

berndf said:


> _Caelum_ and _Coelum_ are variant spellings. See L&S reference in my post above,The Greek cognate of _lacus_ is _λάκκος_.



but both _Caelum and _κοῖλος  sounds different?
In Sanskrit there is a word Kailash, that refers the heaven or place of siva(god) which may be related with L. Caelum.


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## berndf

aruniyan said:


> but both _Caelum and _κοῖλος  sounds different?


And? The question was not about similarity but about etymology. Words can sound different and still come from the same root and they can sound similar and still come from different roots. E.g. the German verb _haben_ is cognate with Latin _capere _and not with _habere _as one might be tempted to believe.


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## sotos

Thanks for the feedback on Coelus. How about kalamos? Is it reasonable to assume that it comes from the same root meaning "hollow, concave"? I don't see any other  IE root as possible candidate or any semitic root attested before Homer.


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## berndf

That seems to have a different root, compare Latin _culmus_, German _Halm_, English _haulm_.


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## aruniyan

sotos said:


> Thanks for the feedback on Coelus. How about kalamos? Is it reasonable to assume that it comes from the same root meaning "hollow, concave"? I don't see any other  IE root as possible candidate or any semitic root attested before Homer.



Yes I too think so,

The Tamil word kulal(hollow stick) which is also the shortened word for bamboo flute(pullaan-kulal=Grass-hollow), today i read that early reeds used for writing were mostly made of bamboo, 

so T. kulal,(hollow stick),  Greek. Coelus  and Kalamos (reeds) all could be related.

but i am yet to find any Tamil word related to kalamos(reeds/Pen) using the kulal(hollow stick).


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## fdb

aruniyan said:


> Yes I too think so,
> 
> The Tamil word kulal(hallow stick) which is also the shortened word for bamboo flute(pullaan-kulal=Grass-hallow), today i read that early reeds used for writing were mostly made of bamboo,
> 
> so T. kulal,(hallow stick),  Greek. Coelus  and Kalamos (reeds) all could be related.
> 
> but i am yet to find any Tamil word related to kalamos(reeds/Pen) using the kulal(hallow stick).



The Tamil word is actually குழல், which can be transcribed as kuẕal or kuLal, with the specifically Dravidian retroflex lateral (or however you want to describe it). A connection with the cited Indo-European words seems very tenuous.

Do not forget that in South India people do not (traditionally) write with a kalamos (hollow reed pen) on paper or parchment, but with a sharp object on palm leaves.


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## eamp

I question whether -avi- could really yield Latin ae or oe, are there any other examples of that change? Lewis and Short is pretty old and they might be playing loose with the possible sound changes here.
Walde in his latin etymological dicitionary from 1910 connects it with a PIE root *(s)qait/d (which is certainly not how this root would be reconstructed now) meaning "bright, clear". Pokorny has this as *(s)kāi(d/t). caelum could then be from *kai(d)-lom or *kai(d/t)-slom.
The only newer etymological dictionary I have access to is de Vaan's from 2008 which dismisses this connection, because he reconstructs the root as *(s)kei- (LIV has *keit), which could not give ae in Latin. Instead connects it with Germanic *haila-, Slavic cělŭ meaning "whole" and a Celtic word meaning "omen", not sure if I find that very convincing.
Both don't even mention the form with oe by the way, neither does the Oxford Latin Dictionary so I guess only "caelum/-us" is considered the correct original Latin form now.
None tried to connect it to caedo, which I thought seemed obvious from the sounds at first, but development of the meaning would be very difficult "beat, cut" -> ??? -> "sky".
So on the whole the origin of the Latin word seems to be less than clear still.


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## sotos

eamp said:


> Both don't even mention the form with oe by the way, neither does the Oxford Latin Dictionary so I guess only "caelum/-us" is considered the correct original Latin form now.



Strange. Coelum exists in all older latin dictionaries. But the form "caelum" (pronounced "kelum" I suppose) is still compatible with the sense of concave, hollow. 

In this link I gave in my initial post http://books.google.gr/books?id=BxL...CFYQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=κοίλον ουρανού&f=false, on the top of p.33 it refers to the w. κυτταρον (cell) as related to sky. It says that "_some call kyttaron the highest point of the sky_" ("τινες φασι ..."). The w. cell is etymologically related to words meaning "to hide, conceal," including the Gr. Kelyphos (shell): http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=cell. Thus, coel- or cael- are semanticallly close.


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## CapnPrep

eamp said:


> Both don't even mention the form with oe by the way, neither does the Oxford Latin Dictionary so I guess only "caelum/-us" is considered the correct original Latin form now.


It is the older form. _Coelum _was introduced later under (folk etymological) influence from _κοῖλος_. I would consider it "correct" in Late Latin or Church Latin, but for etymological purposes we should only look at _caelum_.


eamp said:


> None tried to connect it to caedo, which I thought seemed obvious from the sounds at first, but development of the meaning would be very difficult "beat, cut" -> ??? -> "sky".


There is a word _c(a)elum_ "chisel" that is obviously related to _caedo_, and it has in fact been proposed that _caelum_ "sky" might also derive from the notion of "cutting [into sections/regions with astrological significance]". See e.g. Ernout & Meillet, although their conclusion is the same as yours: "Bref, on n'a que des hypothèses incertaines." Same goes for Walde & Hofmann, whom you mentioned: "Et. unsicher" (but they go on to give a useful overview of many proposals, with sources and commentary).


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## sotos

CapnPrep said:


> There is a word _c(a)elum_ "chisel" that is obviously related to _caedo_, and it has in fact been proposed that _caelum_ "sky" might also derive from the notion of "cutting [into sections/regions with astrological significance]".


Good to see that etymology and quantum physics have something common: They both contradict common sense.
The caelum as chisel could equally be a metaphore from kalamos, as chisel is used for inscribing (signs, letters) on stone, as kalamos did initially on clay tablets. Chiselling the sky for astrology is against common logic.  The primitive view of the sky as a shell (cell > celest-) makes more sense.


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## sotos

aruniyan said:


> The Tamil word kulal(hollow stick) which is also the shortened word for bamboo flute(pullaan-kulal=Grass-hollow), today i read that early reeds used for writing were mostly made of bamboo,
> 
> so T. kulal,(hollow stick),  Greek. Coelus  and Kalamos (reeds) all could be related.
> 
> but i am yet to find any Tamil word related to kalamos(reeds/Pen) using the kulal(hollow stick).



Interesting. Doesn't matter if reed was not used by Tamils for writting. The meaning of kalamos is reed, not pen. 

In the Koeln Sanskrit Dictionary http://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/scans/MWScan/tamil/index.html I found the w. "kalama" meaning "reed". It is not clear though, if all these "sanskrit" words are not influenced by Greek after the Alexandrine period. I noticed also that some of the words for "reed" mean "pen" as well. But the most important is that some sanskrit word mean both "reed" and "hollow" e.g. kANDin, chidrAntar, nAla. suSira etc. So, the connection of kalamos with koilos is possible.


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## CapnPrep

sotos said:


> Good to see that etymology and quantum physics have something common:


The difference is that people with no specialist knowledge usually realize that they are not qualified to say anything about quantum physics.


sotos said:


> The primitive view of the sky as a shell (cell > celest-) makes more sense.


_C(a)elest-_ is derived from _caelum_, not from _cell_. There is also no established etymological connection between _cell_ and _shell_, if that is what you are suggesting.


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