# Ρολόι and μοιρολόι



## Helleno File

I know ρολόι (watch, clock) but while reading Νυχτερινό Δελτίο I've just seen μοιρολόι which dictionaries give as lament, dirge or in less literary style, wailing, moaning.  I there any connection between the two and if so what is the etymology of this strange pair? Μοίρα I also know for fate, destiny - is that part of this??


----------



## Apollodorus

Helleno File said:


> Is there any connection between the two and if so what is the etymology of this strange pair? Μοίρα I also know for fate, destiny - is that part of this??



μοιρολόι is from *μοιρο*-λόγι(ο)ν < μοιρολογῶ < μοῖρα + λέγω,  ρολόι from *ὡρο*-λόγιον, "time mechanism" (from where also Spanish reloj, apparently).

The former refers to speaking (or singing) of the dead (and their fate), the latter refers to speaking of (or indicating) time.


----------



## Helleno File

Thanks for a great answer, Apollodorus. I had no idea that ρολόι had a derivation from ωρολόγιον. (Obvious now you say.) That also explains the γ that comes into the declension of ρολόι.

Absolutely fascinating to see how the two words have the shared element.


----------



## Apollodorus

Yes, even if you can’t establish an etymological connection between μοῖρα (“fate”) and ὥρα (“hour”, “time”), you may still be able to find a _semantic _link if you consider that for the Ancient Greeks Fate determined one’s life span.

In other words, one “receives as one’s portion” (μείρομαι) that portion of time (ὥρα / μοῖρα) which Fate (Mοῖρα) apportions (μοιράω / μοιρῶ).

So, you aren’t far of the mark, after all. Fascinating enough and well done for spotting it! 🙂


----------



## bearded

Apollodorus said:


> *ὡρο*-λόγιον, "time mechanism"


In the etymology, is it really a mechanism or just something (for) ''telling'' (λέ_γ_ω) the time?


----------



## Apollodorus

bearded said:


> In the etymology, is it really a mechanism or just something (for) ''telling'' (λέ_γ_ω) the time?



Well, _stricto sensu_, it would be "time/hour-teller".

So, perhaps we may say that the horologion (ὡρολόγιον or ρολόι) tells the individual units of one’s lifetime as apportioned by Fate (Moira, the Apportioner) and the totality of which the moirologion (μοιρολόγιον or μοιρολόι) sings.

Or something along those lines ....


----------



## διαφορετικός

The usual meanings of "-λόγιο" in Modern Greek, according to Βικιλεξικό, are:

a text or list which contains information regarding the first part of the word (examples: βαθμολόγιο, ημερολόγιο, κτηματολόγιο)
a collection containing "the first part of the word" (this reminds me of συλ*λογ*ή / συλ*λέγω*; Βικιλεξικό does not explain it like this, but maybe this is a part of the etymology * ... ?) (examples: ανθολόγιο, δειγματολόγιο, λεξιλόγιο)
But ωρολόγιο (ρολόι) resembles rather an υμνολόγος. Υμνολόγος is explained by the first of four possible meanings of -λόγος according to Βικιλεξικό:

a person whose words are described by the first part of the compound word

*P.S.: Indeed, "to collect" seems to be one meaning of Ancient Greek "λέγω", see entry "λέγω (Β)" in Αποτελέσματα για: "λέγω"


----------



## Apollodorus

διαφορετικός said:


> But ωρολόγιο (ρολόι) resembles rather an υμνολόγος.



If a person was appointed to announce the time to other citizens, then the “-logos” may refer to a person, i.e. a time crier or horologos (ὡρολόγος).

But Triantafillidis derives MG ρολόι from _ὡρολόγιον_, “sundial” (“ηλιακό ρολόι”).

Ancient Greek water clocks (clepsydrae) and other time-keeping devices were also referred to as “horologion” (ὡρολόγιον).

Either way, the “-λόι/-λόγιον” element refers to the act of “telling” (λέγω). The ρολόι tells the time fated to man and the μοιρολόι tells the fate at the end of that time.

Incidentally, AG moira (μοῖρα) means not only “portion” and “apportioned fate” but also an astronomical and geographical degree, in which case it may be taken to refer as much to the units on a sundial as to the degrees of the heavenly vault or divisions of the zodiac.

If we consider (a) that hour/(h)ora seems to come from Proto-Indo-European _*yeh₁-_ (“year, season”) and (b) that human life is measured in years, what moira (μοῖρα/μοίρα) tells above (in the heavens), (h)ora (ὥρα/ώρα) tells bellow (on earth) and the two are inextricably interconnected ....


----------



## διαφορετικός

Apollodorus said:


> Either way, the “-λόι/-λόγιον” element refers to the act of “telling” (λέγω).


Yes, I don't doubt that. But I was surprised that it seems that the ending "-λόγιο" in Modern Greek in most cases has a different meaning: not "telling", but "collecting". A meaning that does not exist in the modern verb "λέω".


----------



## Perseas

διαφορετικός said:


> A meaning that does not exist in the modern verb "λέω".


The meaning of "collecting" exists in a compound of "λέγω": "συλλέγω" (noun: "συλλογή").

But it's true that many modern Greek words were formed following the pattern of ancient words. E.g. "Ανθοπωλείον" ("flowershop") was coined in 1889. In a "ανθοπωλείο" modern Greeks buy "λουλούδια". (I don't know how many would ask for "άνθη". However, this word is still in use, albeit rare).


----------



## Apollodorus

διαφορετικός said:


> A meaning that does not exist in the modern verb "λέω".



I agree that Modern Greek "λέω" may not explicitly carry the meaning of “collect”, but it may be said to do so _implicitly_ as when we speak, we (a) collect our thoughts, (b) re-collect things from memory, (c) collect certain sounds to form words, words to form sentences, sentences to form a longer spoken communication or speech, etc.

And, of course, when we put together observed facts to draw an inference as in a syllogism (συλλογισμός). Arguably, the συλλογισμός is not necessarily the product of articulated speech, but it is still a form of inaudible, inner speech that forms the basis of speech in general.


----------



## sotos

Υπάρχει και το κομπολόι


----------



## διαφορετικός

sotos said:


> κομπολόι


Seems like a "collection of knots" ...


----------



## Helleno File

Looks like this might run a while longer. I had no idea when I originally posted that there would be so much to this apparently simple query! Thanks everyone for so much helpful explanation. 

Searching my electronic Collins dictionary I see it gives several other "collections of things" words: γυναικολόι, κουβεντολόι, σκυλολόι, συγγενολόι.


----------



## sotos

Helleno File said:


> Looks like this might run a while longer. I had no idea when I originally posted that there would be so much to this apparently simple query! Thanks everyone for so much helpful explanation.
> 
> Searching my electronic Collins dictionary I see it gives several other "collections of things" words: γυναικολόι, κουβεντολόι, σκυλολόι, συγγενολόι.


It is simply the new greek version of -logy with the sense of col-lex-ion of things (e.g. phraseology, semasiology, ideology etc).


----------



## Apollodorus

λέγω/λέω is also cognate with λόγος /logos/ (“spoken word, account, reason”), both being derived from Proto-Indo-European _**leǵ-*_*, “gather, collect”.*

I don’t know if Greeks talk or reason more than others, but AG λέγω /lego/ (“put in order, arrange, gather”) and related words seem to play a major role in the Greek language. Maybe this is why Greeks say "τα λέμε" /ta leme/ (“we speak”) instead of the more common (at least in European languages) “I see you”. 🙂

In any case, in order to think or speak (verbally express our thoughts), we must gather or collect our thoughts.

Plato defines dialectic as the art of “dividing and collecting” (διαίρεσις /diairesis/). The very act of thinking consists in a process of classifying or collecting elements of cognition into classes based on similarity and difference, and collecting and holding it all together in a coherent whole.

This is why consciousness and awareness itself, without which no thinking or perceiving would be possible, is referred to by words with the prefix σύν- (syn-) that suggest unifying or collecting: συνείδηση, συναίσθηση, σύνεση, etc.

*So, basically, everything we think, say, and (to some extent) do, is a manifestation of λέγω and λόγος.*

Λόγος acquired a special place in Greek philosophy on which Western philosophy is based. And John says “Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος”/”Aπ’ όλα πριν υπήρχε ο Λόγος” (“In the beginning was the Word”) ....


----------



## Helleno File

sotos said:


> It is simply the new greek version of -logy with the sense of col-lex-ion of things (e.g. phraseology, semasiology, ideology etc).


On reflection I think the Greek examples I found are different as being obstinately concrete groups of things.  Your English ones on the other hand refer to ideas.  I wonder if these are English formations based on -ology originally meaning "the study of", philology, psychology etc.


----------



## Helleno File

Apollodorus said:


> I don’t know if Greeks talk or reason more than others...


You make a very good case for it!   We English have a good number of words with the prefix con- (conscience, etc) but with the near demise of Latin in schools I doubt whether many of us now know the sense of "with" that they contain!


----------



## ioanell

*λέγω

ΕΤΥΜ. *AGr < Ι.Ε. _*leg- _“συλλέγω, συγκεντρώνω / collect, gather” || see Lat. cogn. _lego _“to bring together, to gather, collect – to read” || Cognate AGr words: _λέξ-ις (-η), λεκτ-ικός, λόγ-ος, λογ-ίζομαι _etc.

Orig. mean. “συλλέγω, συγκεντρώνω, συνάγω, συναθροίζω, μαζεύω / pick up, gather, collect” which developed into the AGr (Homeric already) meaning of “μετρώ, απαριθμώ, συνυπολογίζω / count, reckon” to end up with the also AGr (Hom. already) meaning of “αναφέρω, διηγούμαι, λέγω, μιλώ / narrate, say, tell, speak”. The original meaning of “συλλέγω, συγκεντρώνω” survives in the ancient and modern verbs of “συλ-λέγω / collect” και “κατα-λέγω, συγ-κατα-λέγω / include, classify”.

So, in MoGr on the one hand we have words compound with -λέγω, -λέξη, -λόγος, -λογος in the sense of “λέγω, μιλώ”, such as αντι-λέγω / contradict, διά-λεξη / lecture, γλωσσο-λόγος / linguist, πρό-λογος / prologue and on the other hand words compound with -λέγω, -λόγος, -λογος, -λογή in the sense of “συλλέγω, συγκεντρώνω”, such as επι-λέγω / select, απουσιο-λόγος / absence-recorder, κατά-λογος / catalogue, συλ-λογή / collection.

So:
_(ω)_*ρο-λό*_(γ)_*ι*_(ον)_: the mechanism which counts and tells the ώρες (time), clock, watch
*μοιρο-λό*_(γ)_*ι*_(ον)_: a mournful song which says about the (dead’s or the human’s) fate, a funeral lament, dirge



Helleno File said:


> I wonder if these are English formations based on -ology originally meaning "the study of", philology, psychology etc.


Please note this: the newer formations in –logy mean “the science (in the original, not the English, meaning of the word) which or the person who says / speaks about….e.g. the psyche, viz. psychology, (η επιστήμη που μιλάει για (εξετάζει) την ψυχή, …bios, viz. biology (η επιστήμη που μιλάει για (εξετάζει) τον βίο), etc. Here, the first member of the compound is the object of the verb “say / speak”, represented by "λογία, –logy.

The word “philology” (φιλολογία) on the other hand is AGr and means “love for speech / learning / studying” (η φιλία [_αγάπη_] για τον λόγο, τη μάθηση, τη μελέτη). Here, the opposite is happening: -λογία / -logy is the object to philo (φιλο - viz. φιλολογέω [< φιλέω τὸν λόγον] αγαπώ τον λόγο, τη μάθηση, τη μελέτη / I love speech, learning, studying).



Helleno File said:


> Searching my electronic Collins dictionary I see it gives several other "collections of things" words: γυναικολόι, κουβεντολόι, σκυλολόι, συγγενολόι.


and several others, like κομπολόι, ψιλολόι, αρχοντολόι, φτωχολόι are very informal, everyday language comprehensive nouns whose second member “λόι” (< -λόγιον < λέγω -in the sense of “συλλέγω, συγκεντρώνω”) means a group of what the first member denotes. On the other hand, compound nouns like “κουβεντολόι” (=a long and purposeless chat) and “μοιρολόι” have as second member “λόι” (< -λόγιον < λέγω) in the sense of “λέγω, μιλώ”, e.g. “πιάσαμε το κουβεντολόι / we started saying “κουβέντες” / we started a long chat” or “οι γριές ξεκίνησαν το μοιρολόι / the old ladies started singing a song which said about the (dead’s or the human’s) fate”.


----------



## Αγγελος

Also note that ανθολογία does *not *mean 'botany', which is φυτολογία (=study of plants), but 'anthology' -- _florilegium _in Latin.

Whether or not they are etymologically related, the two senses of the root λεγ-/λογ- ('say' and 'collect') are functionally two different roots in Greek, even though their derivatives may (but shouldn't!) be confused. Thus, διαλέγω means 'pick out, choose', whence διαλογή (=sorting, _triage_), but διαλέγομαι means 'to have verbal intercourse', whence διάλογος, διάλεκτος, διαλεκτική, but also διάλεξη, which means 'public lecture', while συνδιάλεξη means 'phone call'! Similarly, επιλέγω/επιλογή = select(ion), but επίλογος = epilogue! 
No one said Greek was easy...


----------



## sotos

Ι would be surprised if λέγω (speak) and -λέγω (collect, arrange) are irrelevant. Logos textualizes ideas, i.e. puts them in an order or scheme that makes sense. That's why God is Logos, and Logos is God etc. But as certain pro-nazi philosophers said, this can be understood only in German.


----------



## Apollodorus

Helleno File said:


> You make a very good case for it!



Well, the Greeks did invent dialectic (διαλεκτική < διά + λέγω) or, at least, coined a word for it (see Zeno of Elea) and it seems only fair to give everybody their due. Plus, as @sotos says, λέγω (speak) and -λέγω (collect, arrange) are not irrelevant.

Plato himself saw dialectic as involving a process of collecting (συναγωγή) and dividing (διαίρεσις), i.e. bringing things and ideas together into general classes or kinds and dividing the latter into subdivisions, resulting in an ordered, coherent and meaningful whole.

Plato even uses this in support of his “Theory of Forms/Ideas” (η θεωρία των ιδεών), stating that without a collection or weaving together (συμπλοκή) of ideas, dialectic (and speech in general) would be impossible:

“The complete separation of each thing from all is the utterly final obliteration of all discourse. For our power of discourse is derived from the interweaving of the classes or ideas with one another … For certainly, my friend, the attempt to separate everything from everything else is not only not in good taste but also shows that a man is utterly uncultivated and unphilosophical” - _Sophist _259d-e

Incidentally, there is a song by Gregoris Bithikotsis that manages to combine ρολόι, κομπολόι and μοιρολόι:

"... Θα το δώσω το ρολόι
και θα πάρω κομπολόι
να μετράω τους καημούς
και τους αναστεναγμούς

Τώρα δεν είσαι στην αγκαλιά μου
και την καρδιά μου η ζήλια τρώει
τι να το κάνω τέτοιο ρολόι 
κάθε του χτύπος και μοιρολόι ..."

Ρολόι, κομπολόι - Γρηγόρης Μπιθικώτσης – YouTube

If even in popular culture there is an awareness of the connection between ρολόι and μοιρολόι, it looks like you’re definitely on to something worth further investigation …. 🙂


----------



## sotos

Apollodorus said:


> Incidentally, there is a song by Gregoris Bithikotsis that manages to combine ρολόι, κομπολόι and μοιρολόι:
> 
> "... Θα το δώσω το ρολόι
> και θα πάρω κομπολόι
> να μετράω τους καημούς
> και τους αναστεναγμούς
> ...


κομπολό(γ)ι is a very philosophical implement (rosarium philosophorum) as a collection of beads that count and put in order stray ideas, prayers, feelings etc. The central decorated bead is called "pappas", i.e. the representative of God.


----------



## Helleno File

Thank you all for so many fascinating, detailed and informative replies. At times I've been hard pressed to absorb it all and I've had to re-read these posts many times.

One of the things about learning Greek (unlike other languages) is that I have hundreds of mostly disconnected queries, puzzles and areas of uncertainty that circulate at the back of my mind. This thread has brought some of them helpfully together connecting λέγω and λόγος, which I never expected in my original post.

@Αγγελος Words such as επιλέγω/επιλογή and especially διαλέγω/διάλεξη had always puzzled me. @ioanell Συνκαταλέγω made some sense as "count as". Now I see why these work in the way they do! I should have seen that φιλολογία is different, though!


----------



## ioanell

Αγγελος said:


> Thus, διαλέγω means 'pick out, choose', whence διαλογή (=sorting, _triage_), but διαλέγομαι means 'to have verbal intercourse', whence διάλογος, διάλεκτος, διαλεκτική, but also διάλεξη





Helleno File said:


> διαλέγω/διάλεξη had always puzzled me


Ν.Β.: 
1. διαλογή (_selection_) < διαλέγω (_select, choose_) < δια + λέγω in the sense of “συλλέγω, συγκεντρώνω” / pick up, gather, collect
2. διάλογος (_dialogue_), διάλεξη (_lecture_), διάλεκτος (_dialect_), διαλεκτική (_dialectic_) < διαλέγομαι (_hold converse with, discuss a question with another, to discourse) < _δια + λέγω in the sense of “λέγω, μιλώ” / say, tell, speak


----------



## Helleno File

Thanks again ioanell.  I think I may have finally got all this!


----------

