# ים - nikkud



## zaw

Hi,

Why is it that in modern Hebrew the words ים and עם, though pronounced with the same vowel, are spelled differently? ים has a qames but עם has a patakh. Why?

Toda raba


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## Ali Smith

Because the מ in ים 'sea' was originally geminated.


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## Drink

Ali Smith said:


> Because the מ in ים 'sea' was originally geminated.


That literally does not answer the question, as ים is the one with qamatz.

Furthermore, the מ in עם also used to be geminated.

Rather, ים is an unusual word. There are some words of this formerly geminated pattern that also have qamatz, but they at least have patach in the construct state. But ים is a category of its own. For whatever reason, it has qamatz even in the construct state, at least in Biblical Hebrew. This is said to be an effect of the labial מ, but this doesn't explain why other words don't have this.


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## Abaye

יַם סוּף


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## Drink

Abaye said:


> יַם סוּף


Yes, this particular phrase does seem to be an exception to the rule.

But look at other collocations:
- ים המלח
- ים הערבה
- ים פלשתים
- ים כנרת
- ים מצרים

They all have qamatz, and even when there is a maqqaf.


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## 𒍝𒊑𒈾 𒂵𒉿𒀉

Drink said:


> That literally does not answer the question, as ים is the one with qamatz.
> 
> Furthermore, the מ in עם also used to be geminated.



Why did the dagesh hazak drop out of these words? It's still there in אַתְּ


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## Ali Smith

𒍝𒊑𒈾 𒂵𒉿𒀉 said:


> Why did the dagesh hazak drop out of these words? It's still there in אַתְּ


The rule is indeed that a word cannot end with a doubled consonant. However, if the consonant has a vowel, as ת does here, it can end in a doubled consonant.


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## Drink

𒍝𒊑𒈾 𒂵𒉿𒀉 said:


> Why did the dagesh hazak drop out of these words? It's still there in אַתְּ


Words like אַתְּ are an exception. אַתְּ retained a final short vowel longer than words like עם did. By the time that final vowel was dropped, the final gemination was not being dropped anymore.


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## קטן

Some sources list יָם ('sea') and יַם ('sea of') as one of its construct states. For modern Hebrew, see pealim.com.

@zaw:
Better present the question in a different way.
Your question sentence asks why spellings differ while vowels don't. However, depending on grammar, Hebrew vowel signs may not only indicate quality (speech sound), but also quantity (duration).

I suggest the following representation instead:
'Why is it that in modern Hebrew the words ים and עם, though pronounced the same, are spelled differently? ים has a qames but עם has a patakh. Why?'

I'm not convinced that יָם and עַם sound exactly the same.
Of course, it's often said that vowel duration wasn't semantic in modern Hebrew.
With regard to vowel length (semantic or not), modern Hebrew is similar to modern Russian, I think.
There are essentially three vowel lengths, namely extra-short, short and half-long.


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## S1234

*NEW QUESTION - threads merged by moderator*​
Hi everyone

וְהָיָה לָכֶם פְּאַת נֶגֶב מִמִּדְבַּר צִן עַל יְדֵי אֱדוֹם וְהָיָה לָכֶם גְּבוּל נֶגֶב מִקְצֵה יָם הַמֶּלַח קֵדְמָה.

כִּי שָׁמַעְנוּ אֵת אֲשֶׁר הוֹבִישׁ יְהוָה אֶת מֵי יַם סוּף מִפְּנֵיכֶם בְּצֵאתְכֶם מִמִּצְרָיִם וַאֲשֶׁר עֲשִׂיתֶם לִשְׁנֵי מַלְכֵי הָאֱמֹרִי אֲשֶׁר בְּעֵבֶר הַיַּרְדֵּן לְסִיחֹן וּלְעוֹג אֲשֶׁר הֶחֱרַמְתֶּם אוֹתָם.

Why did the kametz in יָם הַמֶּלַח not become פתח? It did in יַם סוּף.

Thanks


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## Drink

I believe this has been discussed before. It's a peculiarity of the word ים.


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## Ali Smith

It reduced in יַם סוּף because יַם is in the construct state.


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## Drink

Ali Smith said:


> It reduced in יַם סוּף because יַם is in the construct state.


This is a highly misleading statement.

The general rule is ים has qamatz in the construct state. ים סוף is the _only_ exception.


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## Abaye

Wiktionary:


> צורת הנפרד המקורית הייתה כנראה "יַם" (yamm), והקמץ הוא התפתחות תניינית שאירעה במבטא הטברני. הפתח נעתק לקמץ בהשפעת המ"ם השפתית (הקמץ הטברני נהגה במקור בעיגול השפתיים).


Translation: "The original absolute form was probably with patach (yamm), the shift to qamatz is a secondary development in the Tiberian pronunciation under influence of the labial מ (the Tiberian qamatz was originally pronounced with rounded lips)."

Wikipedia:


> Tiberian Hebrew is the canonical pronunciation of the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh) committed to writing by Masoretic scholars living in the Jewish community of Tiberias in ancient Galilee c. 750–950


תרגום: "עברית טברנית (או טבריינית) היא דרך ההגייה המקובלת של המקרא (תנ"ך) כפי שהועברה לכתב על פי המסורה על ידי חכמינו מהקהילה היהודית של טבריה בסביבות השנים 750-950 למניינם".
That is, the shift from יַם to יָם is a medieval thing.
But Tiberian pronunciation is regarded as the most accurate, so we may take the Wiktionary message with a grain of salt.


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## utopia

Blau writes about this:

he says that the ים case, so it seems, is like the pronounciation of מוות, where the kamats is a short vowel, as it seems to assimilate to the waw that pursues.

Maybe because it's a back rounded sound.


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## Abaye

Are you saying it's a קמץ קטן? Or a קמץ גדול pronounced as a פתח? But there's no waw in ים, why would it behave exceptionally like מוות in this regard? And why would ים סוף be an exception to the exception?


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## utopia

Abaye said:


> Are you saying it's a קמץ קטן? Or a קמץ גדול pronounced as a פתח? But there's no waw in ים, why would it behave exceptionally like מוות in this regard? And why would ים סוף be an exception to the exception?



As for מוות, yes, it’s Kamats Katan, as the A sound is near a W sound, and thus there’s an assimilation, but Blau just says that the case of ים is similar and doesn’t elaborate


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## Abaye

Are you saying that in Tiberian Hebrew, which gave us the niqqud, מוות is pronounced "movet" (or "mowet") with short "o" rather than "mavet" with long "a", and accordingly ים may have been pronounced "yom"? Or is it some intermediate vowel that cannot be expressed by the conventional (Tiberian) niqqud marks?


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## utopia

Yes
It’s not me saying that, I’m just quoting Blau’s.


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## Abaye

Then I guess it should apply to other words, e.g. תָּוֶךְ.
If that's the case, there's a question why the pronunciation was changed in later time.


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## utopia

The assimilation is between the A and the W immediately after. So I guess it included all the other words of the same form. I don’t imagine that it happened because of the M in MAWT!


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