# FR: ce/ça + devient/peut/doit (être) - "ce" comme sujet



## Sentance

When is it appropriate to use one or the other?  Since they are apparently both pronouns and both mean essentially the same thing.

Yet, I had the following corrected by a teacher:

Il est assez tard maintenant.  *ce *devient difficile de penser quand je suis fatigué.

Il est assez tard maintenant.  *ça* devient difficile de penser quand je suis fatigué.


Why is it necessary to use ca here instead of ce?


*Moderator note:* Multiple threads have been merged to create this one.


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## boterham

Your teacher is right yet this is a tricky one to explain !
Some answers here...


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## Sentance

So, it's largely because it doesn't use the verb etre, or pouvoir?  That is to say, one uses 'ce' predominantly with those two verbs, and 'ca' for all other cases?


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## jann

Sentance said:


> So, it's largely because it doesn't use the verb etre , or pouvoir?



_Ce_ is a demonstrative pronoun that, if you are using it as the subject of a verb, can only used with _être_.  It is replaced by _cela_ when used as the subject of any other verb, in which case _cela_ can be shortened to _ça_ informally.  You do not use the _ce_ as the subject of _pouvoir.  

_ _C'est du vin, c'est de l'eau, c'est difficile, etc__
Cela est bien intéressant.* --> C'est bien intéressant*
Cela m'intéresse --> Ça m'intéresse.
Au cas où cela/ça pourrait te servir 
Qu'est-ce que ça donne ?
__Ça me fait mal !_

*Note that _cela_ can also be used with _être_, it is not limited to other verbs.  If you chose to replace _ce_ with _cela, _it is usually because you are emphasizing the precise subject of the sentence instead of making a generalization.  _Cela est intéressant, mais..._ = That (the idea you just presented, etc) is interesting, but....  vs.  _C'est intéressant_. = That's interesting. [general statement]


Of course it is also possible to use _ce, cela, _and _ça_ without making them alone the subject of a verb!  These examples are grammatically very different from the ones above, and also from your initial question.
_
J'ai trouvé *ce* dont j'avais besoin.
Il voulait te montrer *ce* portrait.
*Ce qui* m'intéresse en tant que réalisateur, c'est l'adaptation du format choisi au thème que je développe.
Nous pourrions également vous faire parvenir une formule d'inscription et *ce*, sans engagement  de votre part.
C'est intéressant, *ça* !
Ne fais pas *ça* !_


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## Areyou Crazy

i don't know if this helps and i couldn't hope to match the post above
but i think of in terms of proximity
ce devient it's becoming hard to - meaning the task i am doing now
ça devient it becomes hard to - meaning in general
but then people say ca marche! so i don't know but then ca is cela so that makes sense, um i think


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## jann

> ce devient  it's becoming hard to - meaning the task i am doing now


I'm sorry to contradict you, Areyou Crazy, but I really believe that _ce devient_ is incorrect.  If I am wrong, I hope that a native speaker will correct me. 

You can still use _ça_ to refer to "the task I'm working on right now."  You could also use _ceci devient impossible_, especially if you had talked about several different tasks/projects and it is the last one you mentioned that is giving you trouble...


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## Areyou Crazy

but that's what i thought i had said
in any case I believe in the question
'ce devient' is incorrect because the second part of the sentence talks about general terms 'it is difficult to think when one is tired' so for me it would be illogical to say 'ce devient' at least it doesn't seem correct to me

i dont know why you think i thought ce devient was correct??
+++ ok i can see why , i wasnt clear I can't explain why ce devient is incorrect it just looks wrong lol


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## Maître Capello

jann said:


> _Ce_ is a demonstrative pronoun that, if you are using it as the subject of a verb, can only used with _être_.  It is replaced by _cela_ when used as the subject of any other verb, in which case _cela_ can be shortened to _ça_ informally.  You do not use the _ce_ as the subject of _pouvoir.  _


_Ce peut être difficile de dire la vérité. _As you can see, it *is* possible to use _ce_ with _pouvoir_ although it sounds a lot more formal than _cela_, even stilted.


jann said:


> I'm sorry to contradict you, Areyou Crazy, but I really believe that _ce devient_ is incorrect.  If I am wrong, I hope that a native speaker will correct me.


For some reason _ce devient_ sounds stilted in the present but it would be appropriate in the simple past: _Ce devint une habitude._


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## jann

[…]

Can you also please indicate the register of the example sentences you gave?  Are they literary?  I have never heard anyone say "ce peut..." in everyday speech....


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## Sentance

A quick thank you to everyone for the feedback so far; this has helped to clarify things a lot, I think.

First, with regards to 'ce' + 'pouvoir', I took that from the site posted in the first response by Boterham.

[…]

I noticed that you used the passé simple in one of your examples Capello.  I'm wondering if that's a special case, a literary use of 'ce' with a verb other than etre or even pouvoir, as Jann suggested.  For the most part, I'm avoiding the passé simple tense as it is redundant, and I have plenty of French to perfect before worrying about a whole new tense!

All in all, I'm getting the general feel that as the subject of a verb, 'ce' should only be used with etre, and 'possibly' pouvoir at the right time, but essentially for all other verbs, perhaps often pouvoir included, I would be safe to just use 'ca'.

When ce/ca is used as part of the object as a demonstrative adjective it is perhaps best to think of them as ce = this, ca = that.  Possibly the same when using them as pronoun objects as well.  These impressions, I am taking from Jann's original and informative post, from the final series of examples.


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## Maître Capello

jann said:


> Can you also please indicate the register of the example sentences you gave? Are they literary? I have never heard anyone say "ce peut..." in everyday speech....


Yes, they are literary and you would most probably never hear them in every day speech…



Sentance said:


> I noticed that you used the passé simple in one of your examples Capello. I'm wondering if that's a special case, a literary use of 'ce' with a verb other than etre or even pouvoir, as Jann suggested. For the most part, I'm avoiding the passé simple tense as it is redundant, and I have plenty of French to perfect before worrying about a whole new tense!



Because the passé simple is a literary tense, I think _ce + _verbe au passé simple (as _ce devint_) sounds fine whereas it sounds a bit awkward with “common” tenses…


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## itka

I feel like you forgot "devoir"... or I have not seen it ?

I do use such phrases when I want to speak well (neither affected nor pedantic)... Of course, I don't when I speak to close friends.

_"J'entends des bruits de moteur, ce doit être l'heure du départ !"
_


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## marget

My impression is that in the case of _ce doit être_, the main verb is still être.  Would you use _ce _doit... with other verbs?


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## KaRiNe_Fr

Right itka, and it seems to me that your example (_ce doit être)_, for an assumption, is even more used in every day speech than _ça doit être_ (so it's not pedantic at all here).


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## Maître Capello

marget said:


> My impression is that in the case of _ce doit être_, the main verb is still être.  Would you use _ce _doit... with other verbs?


I think your impression is correct: in _ce doit être_ and _ce peut être_ the _ce_ doesn't sound weird because of the verb _être_. With other verbs I don't think it would sound as natural…


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## verbivore

Getting back to the original post, "ça" is correct. Whenever speaking in generalities, this word can be translated as "it." As such "Ça devient..." is translated, in my opinion, as "It gets..." However, since _être_ is not present, *ce* is not permissible when referring to something non-specific.

EDIT:
Ok, I have confirmed this in my "advanced" grammar book. "Cela/ça" is used as the subject of a verb other than _être_ to refer to something non-specific" (i.e., when speaking in generalities as in the original post).

Quand il fait tard, *ça *me peine de penser en français.
Revenez plus tard, *cela* vaudra meiux.

With _être:_

The use of *cela/ça/ce* depends on whether they precede an "*e*." For example:

1) As a subject and when there is an object pronoun before _être_, *ça* is used instead of *ce: Ça *lui est égal; *C'est *égal.

2) With the forms of _être_ which do not begin with "e", with _devoir/pouvoir + être, _or with the negative form, either *cela/ça/ce *can all be used:

*Cela/Ça/Ce *sera facile. _but_
*Cela/Ça *lui sera facile.

*Cela/Ç'*aurait été possible. _but_
*Cela/Ça *m'aurait été possible.

In the _passé simple_ only *ce *is possible: *Ce *fut difficile. *Ce *devint difficile.


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## Vachefolle

Il y a une explication très simple pour tout ça:

Cela = mot d'origine, à partir duquel on a formé 

--> *ça *(familier, jamais à l'écrit mais beaucoup à l'oral) 
--> *ce *--> pour remplacer cela / ça *lorsque le verbe **être** qui suit commence par e/é, puisque le français a du mal avec la combinaison a + e.

*Donc:

Cela / ça + tous les verbes sauf 'être' quand la forme verbale commence par e / é.

C' [ce] + verbe être commençant par e/é - C'est / c'était  (on ne dit jamais **ça est** par exemple, pour une raison phonétique).

Mais attention, les deux sont possibles:
-quand le verbe être commence par une *consonne *et quand la *négation *s'y interpose (ce sera / ça sera // ce serait / ça serait // ce n'était pas / ça n'était pas etc).
-devant *'devoir' et 'pouvoir' utilisés comme verbes modaux avec le verbe **'être' *(ce doit être / ça doit être // ce peut être / ça peut être etc.)

Vous allez dire 'Et _ça existe_, alors?' Le même problème phonétique du a + e se pose ici, mais ce qui a dérangé les grammairiens c'est la combinaison a + e avec le verbe être, puisqu'il est vraiment très utilisé. Pour le reste des verbes on a admis a + e --> Cela / ça.


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## verbivore

Ayant ceci (ce +ci) et cela (ce + la), je croyais que le mot d'origine était "ce". Je peux pourtant avoir tort. A propos, je crois qu'en essence, la plus grande partie de ce que vous avez écrit avait déjà été mentionné plus haut par post #18. Je ne savais pas si vous l'aviez remarqué ou non. Mes remerciements quand même. C'est toujours aidant d'avoir une autre version des choses.


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## RowanF

RowanF said:


> I thought "ce" could only be used with the verbs  devoir, être, and pouvoir?





Maître Capello said:


> _C__e_ is usually used only as subject before some verbs such as those you mentioned (_être, devoir, pouvoir, __sembler,_ etc.).


So there are more verbs besides the three I mentioned that use ce instead of ça/ceci/cela when it's a subject? I was told it was just those three.


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## CapnPrep

It's really only used as the subject of _one_ verb: _être_. Even if you have _devoir_ or _pouvoir _(or, much more rarely, _sembler_, _paraître_, _aller_), they will almost always be followed by _être_, and not some other verb.

You can find some isolated examples involving verbs other than _être_. Grevisse quotes the following (among others):

_Ce *devient* une grande difficulté_
_Ce *resta* longtemps le grand secret de nos adolescences_
_Ce ne *suffit* pas à combler les déficits_
_Ce peut *signifier* que le ciel est vide_
I would not recommend using _ce_ in such cases. All of these sentences would sound more natural and less stilted (and still perfectly correct and formal) with _cela_.

_Ce (me) semble_, not followed by another verb, is an idiomatic expression.


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## Bathsabee

Dear RowanF, see the difference between :
On frappe à la porte. ce doit être ton frère. : literary
On frappe à la porte. C'est sans doute ton frère/ ça doit être ton frère : spoken

Non, ce ne peut être lui : literary
Non, ça ne peut pas être lui/ ce n'est sûrement pas lui : spoken

[…]


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## RowanF

CapnPrep said:


> It's really only used as the subject of _one_ verb: _être_. Even if you have _devoir_ or _pouvoir _(or, much more rarely, _sembler_, _paraître_, _aller_), they will almost always be followed by _être_, and not some other verb.
> 
> You can find some isolated examples involving verbs other than _être_. […] I would not recommend using _ce_ in such cases. All of these sentences would sound more natural and less stilted (and still perfectly correct and formal) with _cela_.
> 
> _Ce (me) semble_, not followed by another verb, is an idiomatic expression.


Wow. That's really god damned confusing […]. All this could have been avoided if they had just decided to use one damn word for it instead of having cela, […] ça, ce […]

If I do use devoir or pouvoir that isn't followed by être I should still use ce though right?

[…]


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## CapnPrep

No, in those cases you should normally use _cela_ (formal) or _ça_ (informal), and not _ce_.


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## maicart

I have a similar doubt. What's best in these answers?

Le film est bon? *Il/ce/cela/ça* peut être un bon film.

Est-ce un film étranger? *Il/ce/cela/ça* peut être un film étranger.


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## Maître Capello

Well, as already said before, _ce_ would be formal and _cela_ or _ça_ more standard. Anyway, we'd rather say:

_C'est *peut-être* un bon film / un film étranger._


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## maicart

@Maître Capello Thanks. I guess the difference is the same as in English:

a) C'est *peut-être* un bon film = *Maybe *it's a good film.
b) Ce *peut être* un bon film = *It may be* a good film.


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