# Popper



## Windbuchse

In a 1788 letter Joseph II writes:
Ich bin Ihnen für die im Ietzere enthaltenen, besonders für die ganz wohl
detaillierte Nachrichten des Popper verbunden.



The author of the thesis, that this letter was contained in, consulted several German experts and they decided that the proper translation was "Windbag"
Since windbag doesn't make any sense in the context, can popper actually mean airgun?


----------



## Demiurg

I found this Duden entry:


> *Pop­per, der*
> ...
> _Herkunft:_ englisch popper, eigentlich = Gewehr, zu: to pop = knallen




So "popper" meant gun/rifle in general.


----------



## Frank78

It sounds as it is a name because of "Nachrichten des". If you would talk about a thing it rather were "Nachrichten über".

To me "Popper" sounds way too English to be used in the 18th century as an ordinary word. 

There's also no entry in Grimms' dictionary, just two similar words which don't suit. 
http://dwb.uni-trier.de/Projekte/WBB2009/DWB/wbgui_py?lemid=GA00001




Demiurg said:


> I found this Duden entry:
> 
> 
> 
> So "popper" meant gun/rifle in general.



In English but in 18th century German?????
I've never read to term "Popper" meaning rifle in any source.


----------



## Windbuchse

Another usage. Again 1788, Emperor Joseph II, letter written in the conduct of war, discussing only the most important subjects, new to the battlefield is the Austrian Army's Repetierwindbüchse which was a special "pet" project of the Emperor. Could this be a pet name for his new super weapon?  I'm curious how the German experts came up with "windbag"? Note: letter is exactly as written. Nothing changed. However, I have not double checked the OCR.


Sie
werden sich daher bestens angelegen halten, das von den Türken verbreitete Gericht des
hergestellt seyn sollenden Friedens zu zernichten, und den jenseitigen Unterthanen, es
sey durch Poppen, oder durch was immer var andere Weege die Unwahrheit dieser
Austrennung beyzubringen suchen; nicht weniger aber werden Sie besorgt seyn von den
weiteren Anmarsch der feindlichen Truppen und deren Starke die verUisslichten sich zn
Verschaffe, welche Sie Mir aIs denen auf das fordersamste einzusenden haben. Semlin


----------



## Kurtchen

It's not a person's surname now, is it? As in Karl P. Was Austrian, too


----------



## berndf

I agree with Kurtchen. _Nachrichten des ..._ calls for a person to follow. _Popper _is a not infrequent Austrian/Bohemian-Jewish family name.


----------



## Windbuchse

I understand about Nachrichten des calls for a person but the context pretty much rules out a person.  An object can be referred to as a person such as saying  "she's a great ship"

Any ideas how the author's experts came up with "windbag?"


----------



## berndf

Windbuchse said:


> Another usage. Again 1788, Emperor Joseph II,
> ...
> ...es sey durch Poppen,...


I think _Poppen_ mean _clergymen_ here. At the time it was a variant of _Popen_.


----------



## Hutschi

Such names have several roots, and often you cannot recognize the meaning in more recent time.


> In a 1788 letter Joseph II writes:
> Ich bin Ihnen für die im Ietzere enthaltenen, besonders für die ganz wohl
> detaillierte Nachrichten des Popper verbunden.​




If it is not a name, "Nachrichten" must have changed the meaning to "Beschreibung". Is there any description of a thing named "Popper" in your document?

Again, if there is no such context, I think it is a name.

...​


----------



## Windbuchse

Here's the entire letter with the first usage.

Semlin, den 27ten May 1788
Lieber GeneraI D'Aspremont!
Ich habe einige Ihrer Schreiben und sa eben jetz jenes vom 26ten diese
empfangen. Ich bin Ihnen rür die im Ietzere enthaltenen, besonders rtir die ganz wohl
detaillierte Nachrichten des Popper verbunden. Ich glaube, dass sie ziemlich wahr sind...

Here's the entire letter with the second usage:

...Aus den beygebrachten Nachrichten sieht
man, wie sehr es doch den Türken daran liegt ihre ausgewanderte Christliche
Unterthanen zurück zu bekommen, die übrige aber von der Auswanderung abzuhalten,
da sie wohl einsehen, dass sie diese Entvôlkerung allenthalben in ihren Operationen
hemmen müsse, aus eben dieser Ursache aber muss unserer Seits die Transmigration der
jenseitigen Unterthanen auf aile mogliche Weise zu befordem getrachtet werden. Sie
werden sich daher bestens angelegen halten, das von den Türken verbreitete Gericht des
hergestellt seyn sollenden Friedens zu zernichten, und den jenseitigen Unterthanen, es
sey durch Poppen, oder durch was immer var andere Weege die Unwahrheit dieser
Austrennung beyzubringen suchen; nicht weniger aber werden Sie besorgt seyn von den
weiteren Anmarsch der feindlichen Truppen und deren Starke die verUisslichten sich zn
Verschaffe, welche Sie Mir aIs denen auf das fordersamste einzusenden haben....


----------



## berndf

Windbuchse said:


> Here's the entire letter with the first usage.
> Here's the entire letter with the second usage:


I can't see the same word in both passages. In the first it in "Popper" in the second "Poppen".

The OCR is full of errors. It doesn't make sense to continue before you have verified this passage:
_Ich habe einige Ihrer Schreiben und sa eben jetz jenes vom 26ten diese
empfangen. Ich bin Ihnen rür die im Ietzere enthaltenen, besonders rtir die ganz wohl
detaillierte Nachrichten des Popper verbunden._


----------



## Windbuchse

My apologies for not noticing all the OCR errors.  Here are the letters with all the corrections that I could find.

Yes, in the first letter it is popper and in the 2nd letter it is poppen but the author translated both as "windbag"

Semlin, den 27ten May 1788
Lieber GeneraI D’Aspremont!
Ich habe einige Ihrer Schreiben und so eben jetz jenes vom 26ten diese
empfangen. Ich bin Ihnen für die im Ietzere enthaltenen, besonders für die ganz wohl
detaillierte Nachrichten des Popper verbunden. Ich glaube, dass sie ziemlich wahr sind...

...Aus den beygebrachten Nachrichten sieht
man, wie sehr es doch den Türken daran liegt ihre ausgewanderte Christliche
Unterthanen zurück zu bekommen, die übrige aber von der Auswanderung abzuhalten,
da sie wohl einsehen, dass sie diese Entvölkerung allenthalben in ihren Operationen
hemmen müsse, aus eben dieser Ursache aber muss unserer Seits die Transmigration der
jenseitigen Unterthanen auf alle mögliche Weise zu befördern getrachtet werden. Sie
werden sich daher bestens angelegen halten, das von den Türken verbreitete Gericht des
hergestellt seyn sollenden Friedens zu zernichten, und den jenseitigen Unterthanen, es
sey durch Poppen, oder durch was immer var andere Weege die Unwahrheit dieser
Austrennung beyzubringen suchen; nicht weniger aber werden Sie besorgt seyn von den
weiteren Anmarsch der feindlichen Truppen und deren Starke die verlässlichten sich zu
Verschaffe, welche Sie Mir als denen auf das fördersamste einzusenden haben....


----------



## Windbuchse

Note: unlike most all original sources relating to Joseph II these letters are not in the Vienna Archives.  They are at McLennan Rare Books Department at McGill University with the call number _MS 763._

These letters and their translations are part of a thesis JOSEPH II AND THE CAMPAIGN OF 1788 AGAINST THE OTTOMAN TURKS 
by
Matthew Z. MayerDepartment of History
McGill University
July 1997


----------



## exgerman

In the second letter, Poppen are probably orthodox priests, as berndf said above, and as in this Oesterreichisches Kirchenrecht published in 1812, and this Darstellung der Oesterreichischen Monarchie published in 1805. You might doublecheck if the Popper in the first letter is also Poppen, since that would make some sort of sense of the sentence (If orthodox priests can function as agents of counter-propaganda to the orthodox refugees from the Turks, as in the second letter, they can also act as spies).


----------



## berndf

Windbuchse said:


> Yes, in the first letter it is popper and in the 2nd letter it is poppen but the author translated both as "windbag"


I don't think that means much as he admits himself in a footnote: _The translation of this obscure word caused some difficulty. After consulting with several German experts, I finally decided that 'windbag' was the most appropriate._

I still think it is a proper name. The Prag Poppers were a very influential Jewish family in the days of Joseph II and Leopold II. Joachim (Chaim) Popper was the first non-baptized Jew be ennobled by Leopold II.

I also still think that there is no relation between the words _Popper _and _Poppen_ except a mislead translation in the book you cited.


----------



## Windbuchse

Well, the full context rules out this being a reference to an influential Jewish family.  The General that Joseph II is writing to is writing frontline reports back to the Emperor (who is in the field) at the very start of the war. This is war with the Ottoman Turks. It's the beginning of the Emperors first war with him in full charge. He's prepared for this for 5 years. He's very detail orientated and would not be interested in or would he request more information about anything other than the affairs of war.


----------



## berndf

Windbuchse said:


> Well, the full context rules out this being a reference to an influential Jewish family.  The General that Joseph II is writing to is writing frontline reports back to the Emperor (who is in the field) at the very start of the war.


True, this also gave me a head-ache when trying to find out which Popper might have been meant. At the time it was quite unthinkable to involve Jews in military matters. And Popper is Jewish family name.

Another meaning of the name (which I haven't mentioned so far because I can't see how it could possibly fit the context) is the River Poprad (in German Popper) in Slovakia and Poland.



Windbuchse said:


> This is war with the Ottoman Turks. It's the beginning of the Emperors first war with him in full charge.


In 1788? This was shortly before his death. Austria was still engaged in that war when Joseph II died.


----------



## Windbuchse

Yes, not a river. This is happening in the Balkans.

Joseph II became ill during the 1788 campaign as many other's did. He died in Feb 1790, so, he had another year and half to go when these letters were written.

What makes me scratch my head is how the author of this thesis arrived at "windbag."  Windbag is not an unusual term for airgun in the old texts. 

An important part of the context is that this airgun was a special project of the Emperor. It was his baby. He personally directed the manufacturing and deployment of this new super weapon on the battlefield. Might this affect how he referred to it?  It was also supposed to be a top secret project so this might be a code name for it.

I've checked the McGill library reference and these letters do not show up in the holdings. I've sent a message to see if they can be located.  It might be valuable to see a picture of the actual hand written letters.


----------



## berndf

Windbuchse said:


> Joseph II became ill during the 1788 campaign as many other's did. He died in Feb 1790, so, he had another year and half to go when these letters were written.


Yes, but it couldn't be _his first war with him in full charge_, as you wrote. But never mind.



Windbuchse said:


> What makes me scratch my head is how the author of this thesis arrived at "windbag."  Windbag is not an unusual term for airgun in the old texts.


It is unlikely the_ Popper_ refers to any kind of object. _Nachrichten_+<genitive> usually refers news originating from or transmitted by a certain person, organization, newspaper, etc, or to an event which generated the news. But it can hardly ever mean _news about an object_, not even in over 200 year old Austrian German.

You are an English native speaker, so I certainly don't have to tell you: In ordinary English, a _windbag_ is a pejorative word describing _a person who talks hot air and lots of it_. Hence, I tried to find evidence for a use of _Popper _in a similar meaning in 18th/19th century Austrian German (or any variety of German, for that matter) but all I could find in Google Books were references to the family name and to the river.


----------



## Frank78

berndf said:


> Yes, but it couldn't be _his first war with him in full charge_, as you wrote. But never mind.



Why not? Maria Theresia died in 1780 and from then on he really ruled the Habsburgian Empire.

Despite the fact that it is quite unusual for Austrian rulers to appear on the battlefield themselves.


----------



## Windbuchse

I've seen the German word for airgun, Windbüchsen, sometimes literally translated into english as Windcan or Windbag. Which, of course, has nothing to do with the english term windbag.

A question I have is, if a nickname is used in place for the proper noun  would that then make the grammar here work?   Also, there's the well known fact that in the navy you call the ship "her"  So, if you want news about the ship, you ask for news about her not it.

Actually, the word popper for an airgun makes pretty good sense in english. An airgun fires with a  "pop" instead of a bang and a popper is something that pops.  These airguns were intended to be shot in rapid fire (the first ever rapid fire gun introduced into war) so the sound would be pop - pop - pop - pop - pop...... so a rapid fire airgun actually is a popper.


----------



## berndf

Windbuchse said:


> A question I have is, if a nickname is used in place for the proper noun  would that then make the grammar here work?   Also, there's the well known fact that in the navy you call the ship "her"  So, if you want news about the ship, you ask for news about her not it.


Gender is not the issue here. What matters is that _Popper_ is genitive: _*des* Popper_. You cannot use the genitive if you mean news _about_ something. It must be an _agent_ and not a _patient_ in relation to the news, if used in genitive.

Constructs_ Nachrichten des Krieges _are possible because _Krieg _is here regarded as the originating event of the news and not as the subject of the news.


----------



## Windbuchse

I think I have it. Popper/poppen must mean something to the effect of a spy or turncoat.  It that case, it may well relate back to the Jewish family name as a kind of slur. Joseph II was desperate for information and he is known to have authorized payments to spies.   "Spy" fits the context of both letters perfectly.

Oh well. Sort of figured it might be too good to be true.

Thanks to all!


----------



## berndf

Let me think: A _Popper_ is a person that does _poppen_ like a _Bäcker_ (_baker_) is someone how does_ backen _(_to bake_). Thus, a verb infinitive _poppen _and a noun _Popper_ would very well be related and there would also be a nominalized form of the infinitive, _Poppen_ (with a capital "P"), which would mean the act of _Popp_-ing. According to your theory, _poppen_ would mean _to spy_.

Under this assumption, let us take the sentence (with some structurally irrelevant bit left out):
_Sie werden sich daher bestens angelegen halten, das von den Türken verbreitete Gericht ... zu zernichten ... und den jenseitigen Unterthanen *durch Poppen* ...  die Unwahrheit dieser Austrennung beyzubringen suchen;
=
You will be well advised to destroy the rumour spread by the Turks and to try to break the untruthfulness of these news [Austrennung???] to the subjects on the other side *by spying*.

_I can't see how _by spying_ could make sense in this sentence.

Because the whole thing is about Christians living under Turkish rule, the _Poppen_ = variant of _Popen_ = plural of _Pope_ = English _pope_ in the sense of _orthodox clegyman_ makes much more sense in the sentence:
_You will be well advised to destroy the rumour spread by the Turks and to try to break the untruthfulness of these news [Austrennung???] to the subjects on the other side *through/by/via popes*.
_


----------



## jean-le-bon

hi,
the German in this thread is way over my head, but from reading the responses, i just wanted to check that you guys had the correct English definition of "windbag" in mind?

_wind·bag_/ˈwindˌbag/
 Noun: A person who talks at length but says little of any value. 


excuse the interruption if so!

alles gute,
kem


----------



## Hutschi

I have a question:
is it possible that "Poppen" in "durch Poppen" is a special old accusative of "Popp", a variant of the name "Popper"?

I know the accusative with "en" for names in old forms, but do not know if it can be applied here.


----------



## berndf

Hutschi said:


> I have a question:
> is it possible that "Poppen" in "durch Poppen" is a special old accusative of "Popp", a variant of the name "Popper"?
> 
> I know the accusative with "en" for names in old forms, but do not know if it can be applied here.


Not only an "old form". The accusative -n is still active in some words: _der Krake - den Kraken, der Pope, den Popen_. In Austrian the accusative -n is used more regularly. In general all words ending in _-e_ are replaced by the accusative form in all cases: _Suppe>Suppn, Alpe>Alpn>Alm_, etc.

But I can't see how _Popper_ could be a variant of _Popp_. Since _Popper_ is a Bohemian Jewish name I am not even sure it is of German origin.


----------



## berndf

I think I know now how he came to the translation _windbag_: There is an old noun _poppe = brag_. From this there is a derived verb _poppen = to brag_ and hence, *if* derived from this verb, a _Popper_ would be a _bragger_ which is close in meaning to _windbag_. An if this were the meaning_ durch Poppen_ in the second letter should then be translated _by bragging_. But this verb died out 200 years before the letters were written.

I now understand why he used this translation but I still don't concur with it.


----------



## Windbuchse

I see using spy or agent as working in context in the second letter because what he is saying is that we need to convince people that there is no truce. One way of doing that is to use your agents "Poppen" to get that message across.

Translation of the 2nd letter:
Whether you use agents/spies [poppen] or other means, you must try to
convince the subjects who live on the other side that this is untrue.

Agent (somebody working only for the sake of money) is probably better than spies.

Clearly, Poppen are people. These people are not on the Austrian side of the battle line. They are in enemy (Turk) held territory. Somebody who works for the other side for money is an agent or spy.


----------



## exgerman

Windbuchse said:


> Clearly, Poppen are people. These people are not on the Austrian side of the battle line. They are in enemy (Turk) held territory. Somebody who works for the other side for money is an agent or spy.



You're getting warm. Now who would be likely to be influential among the Christians on the Turkish side of the border and be amenable persuading the people to do what Joseph II wants?


----------



## Windbuchse

exgerman said:


> You're getting warm. Now who would be likely to be influential among the Christians on the Turkish side of the border and be amenable persuading the people to do what Joseph II wants?


Who?  People who have nothing but their words: Windbags.    When an army sets up on a long border and stays there for months, this was a very dispersed battle front along a long border, there are going to be people who show up from the other side wanting to sell information.   We know from the history of this campaign that Joseph II authorized payments to agents from the other side. He is known to be desperate for information.  Popper = windbag = agent/spy


----------



## berndf

Windbuchse said:


> Clearly, Poppen are people.


No, that is not clear. I happen to think the the word refers to people, too (though others than you). But is by no means clear.





Windbuchse said:


> Popper = windbag = agent/spy


What has a windbag to do with a spy?


----------



## Hutschi

berndf said:


> Not only an "old form". The accusative -n is still active in some words: _der Krake - den Kraken, der Pope, den Popen_. In Austrian the accusative -n is used more regularly. In general all words ending in _-e_ are replaced by the accusative form in all cases: _Suppe>Suppn, Alpe>Alpn>Alm_, etc.
> 
> But I can't see how _Popper_ could be a variant of _Popp_. Since _Popper_ is a Bohemian Jewish name I am not even sure it is of German origin.


It can be a bohemien word.
It is not fully clear.
But I also found
http://www.houseofnames.com/popper-family-crest
here they derived it from "Poppo" (or the "Popponen")
- and here they gave variants of the name.

http://members.gtelnet.net/D00524128705/Poppe1/Familiengeschichte.htm
Here they also suppose that it is derived from Poppo,  but marked it as not sure.

By the way, the same name can also have different roots. So I do not say that there is only one source for the name.


----------



## Windbuchse

Clearly, the reference is to people in the context of the entire letter, not necessarily from the grammar in the sentence.

A windbag (english) is somebody who is only good for talk.   The Austrian Army was desperate for information. They had no idea where the Turk army was. So, they were willing to and did pay people for talking to them. These people were not professional spys or agents in the modern sense. They were civilians who crossed over from the enemy side to the Austrian side and, for money, told what they knew. The Austrians also employed these people to go back to the enemy side to convince the residents there to leave. That, in modern terminology, is an agent or a spy.


----------



## berndf

Windbuchse said:


> Clearly, the reference is to people in the context of the entire letter, not necessarily from the grammar in the sentence.


No, clearly not. _Poppen _describing a _way or method of information dissemination_ rather than a group of people is not only compatible with the syntax of the expression but also with the content of the letter, especially since the emperor added _or by whatever other ways_ (_oder durch was immer var andere Weege_).



Windbuchse said:


> That, in modern terminology, is an agent or a spy.


_Agent_: Maybe, _Spy_: no. The two words do not mean the same. Every spy is also an agent but not every agent is also a spy. Spies operate secretively.

But whatever, you would need some attested evidence of such a meaning of the word _Popper_ which you havn't produced and I couldn't find. Just fiddling this meaning into two words of which we don't even know if they are related at all is extremely shaky ground.

On the other hand, the variant spelling _Poppen_ for _Popen_ (_orthodox clergymen_) is well attested during the time in question. If _Poppen_ should refer to people rather than methods then this is my far the most likely explanation. There is simply to much wrong with _Poppen=windbags_._ Poppen_ is simply *not *a possible plural of _Popper _but it is a possible plural of _Poppe_ (i.e. _Poppe=brag, Poppen=brags_) and it is be a possible verbal noun (i.e. _Poppen=bragging_).


----------

