# Then again



## Max.89

What does then again mean in this context?
"I might have heard that name before,then again maybe not"
I only can't get then again meaning.

Thanks in advance.


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## Wolverine

Io credo

"potrei già aver sentito quel nome (prima), oppure no."

But natives have the right answer. Wait for them.
Ciao


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## Auno

In this context, and pretty much generally, it's an English 'shorthand' way of saying '(after) thinking about it again'.

It is also something of a 'filler' - a common fill-in for a notional gap in speech.


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## fran06

Max.89 said:
			
		

> "I might have heard that name before,then again maybe not"


 
Potrei aver già sentito quel nome ma forse mi sbaglio.

_Then again_ è un'espressione usata per ribadire un concetto o per confermarlo o per metterlo in dubbio come nel tuo caso. Sto cercando di pensare ad altri esempi ma ora non mi viene in mente niente...


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## Auno

Esattamente Fran,

Bravo.


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## fran06

Auno said:
			
		

> Esattamente Fran,
> 
> Brav*a*.


 
Grazie

Maybe I have one:
I'm so tired today,I am supposed to go out tonight, then again I'm so lazy that I'll stay in!

Is it ok Auno?


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## Max.89

Then again potrebbe quindi essere "ripensadoci"?


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## fran06

Max.89 said:
			
		

> Then again potrebbe quindi essere "ripensadoci"?


 
No, nella mia frase sarebbe: ma

I'm so tired today,I am supposed to go out tonight, then again I'm so lazy that I'll stay in!
Sono così stanca oggi, dovrei uscire stasera *ma* (come ho già detto) sono così pigra che resterò a casa.

Meglio?

Un altro esempio:
I have told you not to go out because it's cold, then again you do what you want.


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## Max.89

Ho capito provo a fare anch'io una frase.

I've alredy told you to not come back so late,then again you have forgotten to shut the door.
Suona un po' come besides pero'...
ma mi sembra corretta anche questa.


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## fran06

Max.89 said:
			
		

> Ho capito provo a fare anch'io una frase.
> 
> I've alredy told you to not come back so late,then again you have forgotten to shut the door.
> Suona un po' come besides pero'...
> ma mi sembra corretta anche questa.


 
Nop,  
Ci deve essere un concetto comune tra le due frasi:
I've alredy told you to not come back so late,then again you never listen to me/you do what you want/you are old enough to decide to come back at 6 am.....

Better?


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## Max.89

Ok allora ho capito ora.
Grazie.


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## fran06

Max.89 said:
			
		

> Ok allora ho capito ora.
> Grazie.


 
You are very welcome, _then again_ that's what we are here for


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## Auno

fran06 said:
			
		

> Grazie
> 
> Maybe I have one:
> I'm so tired today,I am supposed to go out tonight, then again I'm so lazy that I'll stay in!
> 
> Is it ok Auno?


 
Thank you for the brava/o difference.

I'd ditch a few commas here Fran (am on a campaign at present).

"I am so tired.  I was supposed to go out tonight...then again I'm lazy, so I'll stay in." 

Va bene.  Never mind what the Vestals say.

("..." is a way of expressing you are thinking as you speak)


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## fran06

Auno said:
			
		

> Thank you for the brava/o difference.
> 
> I'd ditch a few commas here Fran (am on a campaign at present).
> 
> "I am so tired. I was supposed to go out tonight...then again I'm lazy, so I'll stay in."
> 
> Va bene. Never mind what the Vestals say.
> 
> ("..." is a way of expressing you are thinking as you speak)


 
Grazie a te!!! I'll bear it in mind


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## Auno

Oh also you can think of it as equivalent to:

"On the other hand..."


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## Max.89

> "On the other hand..."


Is this a perfect synonym?


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## moodywop

Max, maybe this explanation in the Longman dictionary will help you understand how it's used:

*but then (again) *used to say that although something is true, something else is also true which makes the first thing seem less important: _William didn't succeed first time, but then very few people do._
_Elaine's father might lend them the money, but then again he might not._

_(Elaine, that was the actual example. I didn't make it up )_

It would be interesting to know whether native speakers are happy with the explanation in the dictionary. 

By the way, it seems there are three possible forms: _but then, but then again_ and _then again._


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## emma1968

E' un po' come il nostro "d'altra parte" allora!


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## fran06

emma1968 said:
			
		

> E' un po' come il nostro "d'altra parte" allora!


 
Secondo me dipende dal contesto, come sempre, ma sono daccordo con te Emma, *d'altra parte* o *d'altronde *sono le traduzioni più adeguate.

Ciao


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## moodywop

emma1968 said:
			
		

> E' un po' come il nostro "d'altra parte" allora!


 
La saggia toscana strikes again . Sì, Emma, sono d'accordo con te. Penso che "d'altra parte" vada benissimo.

Altri esempi:

_He said he had been there, but then_ (= it is not surprising that) _he would say that_

_I think it's true, but then_ (= it should be understood that) _I'm no expert_

(Cambridge Dictionary)

_What a stupid thing to do! But then I've always thought Colin was a bit of a fool_

_No one ever listens to what I say, but then I'm only the junior clerk_

(Macmillan Dictionary)

_D'altra parte _si potrebbe usare tranquillamente in tutti e quattro gli esempi

EDIT: sì, giusto, fran. Anche "d'altronde" va bene. O "d'altro canto"


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## Moogey

Sono d'accordo con tutto quanto ha detto Carlo. Ma delle tre espressioni direi solo "but then again". Le altre mi sembrano un po' strane.

-M


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## moodywop

Moogey said:
			
		

> Ma delle tre espressioni direi solo "but then again". Le altre mi sembrano un po' strane.


 
Forse abbiamo scoperto un'altra differenza fra AE e BE?

PS Moogey, il tuo italiano è *perfetto*!

PPS *But then again *some pedant is bound to step in and say that "userei" is better than "direi" here


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## Moogey

moodywop said:
			
		

> Forse abbiamo scoperto un'altra differenza fra AE e BE?
> 
> PS Moogey, il tuo italiano è *perfetto*!
> 
> PPS *But then again *some pedant is bound to step in and say that "userei" is better than "direi" here


Thank you  I'll reply in English because every time I'm complimented on my Italian I make a mistake in my response 

It could very well be an AE/BE difference. Not only would I not say them, but it would (sometimes) sound odd to hear them. "Then again" with no "but" is less strange than just "but then".

Can non AE speakers tell us what sounds correct to them?

-M


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## moodywop

Moogey said:
			
		

> It could very well be an AE/BE difference. Not only would I not say them, but it would (sometimes) sound odd to hear them. "Then again" with no "but" is less strange than just "but then".
> 
> Can non AE speakers tell us what sounds correct to them?


 
*But then again *(sorry, I know it's childish but I love doing this )the other two forms might just not be used in your part of the States

(can I use _but then again _to refer to a previous _but then again?_)

*But then again *it might just be a Moogey thing


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## Moogey

I think I'm right, but then again I can be wrong 

I think if you just use "then again" there should be about a 2 second space before saying it. My brother does this sometimes (but I still think it sounds strange )

If you say "but then" it sounds like then means "poi" to me. However, it sounds like something the English people would be more apt to say.

-M


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## plabrocca

then again = on second thought

Pat


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## brian

OK...I just wrote three different detailed responses concerning the uses of *(but) then (again)* and why I think Longman is (semi-)wrong; but I was dissatisfied with all three because I kept confusing myself! 

So I'm going to mull over it a little while longer and get back to you all.  Suffice it to say for now, I think it has less to do with how much the post-"then again" clause makes the 1st clause "seem less imporant" and more to do with how much it negates, corroborates, and altogether justifies the intent/intended meaning of the 1st one (i.e., the 2nd clause places a certain _truth value_, not a value of importance, on the 1st clause.)  I'll have to explain better later when I can situate things more properly in my head. 


Brian


P.S. - 





			
				plabrocca said:
			
		

> then again = on second thought


 My original explanations included some discussion on "on second thought" because as I was reading the posts, that's the exact idiom that came to mind.  However, it doesn't work in every case of "then again":

_Elaine's father may lend them the money, but then he may rather them work for it.

_Not quite the same as: _Elaine's father may lend them the money; on second thought, he may rather them work for it._

I changed up the Elaine example for more clarity in the differences.  The first sentence is one full complete thought in which the speaker isn't quite "rethinking" the situation; the speaker is instead pointing out the major difference in the father's lending and not lending.  What's missing from the sentece is this: _Elaine's father may lend them the money, but then again he may not lend them the money and instead he may rather them work for it._  As I was explaining a little bit above, this "then again" clause seeks to justify _why_ Elaine's father might not lend the money.  It has little to do with second thoughts or reconsidering.  It also does _not_, in my opinion, make the 1st clause any less imporant, as I suppose Longman would suggest; they are both equally important.

In the second example, the speaker seems to just, _after some possible reconsideration_, add the possibility that he may not lend the money.  There is less justification in this example and more negation.  In the context of negations, "on second thought" is more fitting.

Like I said, I still have to think about this a lot more.  It's one of those phrases you don't think about as a native, and when you're finally asked to, it kind of blows you away.


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## moodywop

brian8733 said:
			
		

> ... and why I think Longman is (semi-)wrong


 
Brian, I'd like to point out that learners' dictionaries like Longman's actually do a very good job when you take into account that they limit themselves to a defining vocabulary of only 2000 words. This way they also avoid circular definitions like "under" = "below" and "below" = "under" which are useless to learners. As I said, if you examine a few entries you will wish you had a similar dictionary for learners of Italian. The wealth of information they provide on collocations, for instance, is simply amazing. They also pay great attention to usage labels and differences between BE and AE.

A huge dictionary for natives like the OED only has this to offer: *but then again, *_that being so; but on the other hand._



> Like I said, I still have to think about this a lot more. It's one of those phrases you don't think about as a native, and when you're finally asked to, it kind of blows you away.


 
You have no idea how much I appreciate this observation. Every day I learn more about how my native language works thanks to questions such as yours and Erick's. It saddens me that many of my fellow Italians seem more interested in translating tattoos and corny love phrases(or in issuing verdicts on "correctness") and don't contribute to our discussions on usage matters


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## Max.89

> then again = on second thought


 
Then my attempt "ripensadoci" wasn't completely wrong! 

We have the following translations:

D'altronde,dall'altra parte,ripensadoci.

If on second thought is right this sentence should be correct as well:

Maybe I'll come tonight,but then again I could stay at home.
Forse verrò stasera,ma ripensadoci potrei stare a casa.


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## brian

moodywop said:
			
		

> Brian, I'd like to point out that learners' dictionaries like Longman's actually do a very good job when you take into account that they limit themselves to a defining vocabulary of only 2000 words. This way they also avoid circular definitions like "under" = "below" and "below" = "under" which are useless to learners. As I said, if you examine a few entries you will wish you had a similar dictionary for learners of Italian. The wealth of information they provide on collocations, for instance, is simply amazing. They also pay great attention to usage labels and differences between BE and AE.
> 
> A huge dictionary for natives like the OED only has this to offer: *but then again, *_that being so; but on the other hand._


Don't get me wrong--I was in no way castigating Longman's dictionary for its otherwise excellent (albeit generalized) explanation of *then again*, one which particularly makes OED's _pale_ in comparison.   I just wanted to respond since you asked for a native's opinion of the Longman definition.  If I was overly critical, it was due in no part to a lack of respect for or of understanding of the dictionary, but rather to my insatiable need to see linguistic concepts from every angle, including idiomatic phrases of my own language which I had never bothered to ponder before.  I've been thinking about the phrase some more today and I should get back to you after work tonight.  Again, for what it's worth, Longman is quite right indeed in most cases of the phrase, but there are some which cause me to say he's "(semi-)wrong."


Brian


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## coppergirl

Ciao a tutti . . . 

Well, for what it is worth, I would use "but then again" exactly in the same way as "on second thought". I would always use it with the "but" rather than just as "then again". 

I'm afraid this won't help, though, simply because I have no idea whether there is an actual AE/BE difference here or merely a perceived one. Both my husband (BE) and I (AE/BE) use "but then again"---all three words every time. 

I would be interested to know if there were a regional difference in AE, though, because I can never contain my curiosity on such matters. 

Back to Moogey and the other AE members for an answer there . . . Sorry!


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## Forengi

Moogey said:
			
		

> Thank you  I'll reply in English because every time I'm complimented on my Italian I make a mistake in my response
> 
> It could very well be an AE/BE difference. Not only would I not say them, but it would (sometimes) sound odd to hear them. "Then again" with no "but" is less strange than just "but then".
> 
> Can non AE speakers tell us what sounds correct to them?
> 
> -M


 
Sono d'accordo che dire solo (posso parlare dicendo qui?) "then again..." sembra piu strane che dire "but then again"...but then again, siamo entrambe di New Jersey. 

Penso che la ragione per la diversita' di i due frasi e' una mancanza di usare "then again..." in discorso perche e' comune nella scrittura.


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