# Bad grammar in popular music



## Edwin

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/01/04/news_pf/Floridian/Lyricists_have_tense_.shtml


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## abc

I had so much fun reading the article!  Thanks!


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## Focalist

Amusing enough -- but totally missing the point (deliberately, I'm sure. Gina, you can't be *that* thick!). There are many Englishes and they all have grammars. "Bad", "improper", "egregious" (<-- Ooh, swanKEE!!)... Tommy rot! 

"I don't care if the sun don't shine" exhibits impeccable grammatical correctness for its register.

All the author is saying is that the lyrics of most pop songs have not been composed in "standard written English". Wow! Discovery of the millennium!

F


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## Artrella

......

She’s got a ticket to ride,
She’s got a ticket to ride,
She’s got a ticket to ride,
But she   don’t   care.

.....

(The Beatles)


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## kens

We don't need no education
We don't need no thought control!


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## Focalist

Artrella said:
			
		

> ......
> 
> She?s got a ticket to ride,
> She?s got a ticket to ride,
> She?s got a ticket to ride,
> But she   don?t   care.


XA XA (<-- Russisch) 

But was it perhaps not "a ticket to Ryde"?





(The Ryde ferry is the smaller of the two vessels in this picture.)

Ryde pier:





F


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## Tormenta

kens said:
			
		

> We don't need no education
> We don't need no thought control!



*
"Pay attention. Grammar is easy. And, it's SEXY!"*   

Spanish accent is sexy, and so am I!    But grammar? Well, a matter of taste , I suppose   

T.


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## Artrella

Focalist said:
			
		

> XA XA (<-- Russisch)
> 
> But was it perhaps not "a ticket to Ryde"?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (The Ryde ferry is the smaller of the two vessels in this picture.)
> 
> Ryde pier:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> F





XA XA ??? What's that? What's that? What's that????  Tell me tell me tell me!!! (your name??)


Artcurious!!!


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## jacinta

I don't get no....Satisfaction!!  (I think we've already used that one but I love it so much)

My complaint about music isn't the grammar but the incomprehensibility!


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## jacinta

Oh, and another thing...Focalist!! You've just educated me.  I never knew that was what they were singing!  I'll look it up on the map.


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## Focalist

Artrella said:
			
		

> XA XA ??? What's that? What's that? What's that????  Tell me tell me tell me!!! (your name??)


Nothing so mysterious, I'm afraid! "Xa xa" is merely the Russian (Cyrillic) spelling of... ¡Ja ja! 

F


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## kens

If she's really got a ticket to Ryde, and not ride, then not only don't she care about grammar, she also don't care about spelling!  My album says the song is titled "Ticket to Ride". 

But ticket to Ryde makes much more sense.  I always wondered what that song was talking about.


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## EVAVIGIL

No, it wasn't! They meant "A ticket to ride (maybe on a bus)".
Cheers!
EVA.


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## Focalist

Sorry if I've been sowing confusion once again! 

The original line was, of course, "She's got a ticket to ride". "A ticket to Ryde" is simply a pun (much exploited by those writing articles about the Isle of Wight town of that name, which is served by ferries from Portsmouth).

"A ticket to ride" is an American expression (even Britpop is usually written in American English)* which is why it can sound a little odd to BrE ears. 

In Britain one rides on a horse or a bike (for which tickets are not normally required) but in the ordinary way _travels_ (or simply, _goes_) on a bus, train etc. Although the expressions "train ride", "car ride", etc. do exist, they suggest a jaunt -- rather like a ride on a merry-go-round at the fair.

F

* I wonder: does anyone know of any examples of distinctively British usage being used in an internationally known popular song?


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## Artrella

Focalist said:
			
		

> Sorry if I've been sowing confusion once again!
> 
> The original line was, of course, "She's got a ticket to ride". "A ticket to Ryde" is simply a pun (much exploited by those writing articles about the Isle of Wight town of that name, which is served by ferries from Portsmouth).
> 
> "A ticket to ride" is an American expression (even Britpop is usually written in American English)* which is why it can sound a little odd to BrE ears.
> 
> In Britain one rides on a horse or a bike (for which tickets are not normally required) but in the ordinary way _travels_ (or simply, _goes_) on a bus, train etc. Although the expressions "train ride", "car ride", etc. do exist, they suggest a jaunt -- rather like a ride on a merry-go-round at the fair.
> 
> F
> 
> 
> * I wonder: does anyone know of any examples of distinctively British usage being used in an internationally known popular song?




Profe!! What a discussion you began!!!

Now, I have to go so I will ryde on my horse!!!

What do you mean by your last question? 

Artrellita


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## dave

Focalist said:
			
		

> * I wonder: does anyone know of any examples of distinctively British usage being used in an internationally known popular song?



Now there's a challenge. Bang goes any hope I had of doing any work this afternoon!


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## kens

Focalist said:
			
		

> * I wonder: does anyone know of any examples of distinctively British usage being used in an internationally known popular song?


Great question!  This one isn't a question of language use, but the following line from an Oasis song made no sense to me until I moved to the UK:

She sniffed it in a tissue
Selling the Big Issue

Come to think of it, it still makes little sense.  I'll try to think harder.


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## kens

Wait, I've got one!  From Penny Lane:

And the banker never wears a *mack*
In the pouring rain
Very strange...


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## Artrella

kens said:
			
		

> Wait, I've got one!  From Penny Lane:
> 
> And the banker never wears a *mack*
> In the pouring rain
> Very strange...




What is very strange Kens? That the banker never wears a mack in the pouring rain? Maybe he likes to get soaking wet...  

Look:

The NEW OXFORD Dictionary
OF ENGLISH

*mac * (also *mack*)
noun Brit. informal a *mackintosh*.
ORIGIN early 20th cent.: abbreviation.


Cheers, Art


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## jacinta

I think Ken means that those of us in Northern America don't use the term mackintosh.  We say raincoat generally.


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## Focalist

Nice finds, Kens... 

Art, it was Lennon and McCartney, not Kens, who made the observation "very strange": the words are part of the lyrics of Penny Lane. 
The main point is that "mack" is, as you say, a BrE word. 

Later on in the same song is:

_Behind the shelter in the middle of a roundabout_

I know that (traffic) roundabouts are slowly finding their way into some parts of the USA, but I'm sure that there are still vast numbers who have little idea what they are. 

F


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## kens

Ha! Very good.  We have all of *one* roundabout in my fair city -- and we call it a traffic circle.


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## Artrella

Focalist said:
			
		

> Nice finds, Kens...
> 
> Art, it was Lennon and McCartney, not Kens, who made the observation "very strange": the words are part of the lyrics of Penny Lane.
> The main point is that "mack" is, as you say, a BrE word.
> 
> Later on in the same song is:
> 
> _Behind the shelter in the middle of a roundabout_
> 
> I know that (traffic) roundabouts are slowly finding their way into some parts of the USA, but I'm sure that there are still vast numbers who have little idea what they are.
> 
> F





     OH OH!!!!  Soooooorrrrryyyyyy!!!!


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## gotitadeleche

We have two traffic circles (as we call them here) in my city, and another nearby city has one. All of these have been here for at least 50 years that I know of and I was under the impression that we were *reducing * the number of traffic circles because of the high rate of traffic accidents on them.


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## Focalist

Traffic circles and roundabouts are NOT the same thing, though. (Will post more about this later if the Topic Police don't get me first for reckless subject-switching! ).

F


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## kens

Focalist said:
			
		

> Traffic circles and roundabouts are NOT the same thing, though. (Will post more about this later if the Topic Police don't get me first for reckless subject-switching! ).
> 
> F


I'm willing to risk arrest! _This_ is what is known in North America as a traffic circle:




http://www.bikexprt.com/streetsmarts/images/np20a.gif

The only difference from a British roundabout that I can see is the direction the cars are travelling in.

Focalist, is it possible that "traffic circle" has a different meaning in the UK than in North America?

Edit - Oh, wait. You're right as usual Focalist. I just found this web page highlighting the differences. Never mind.


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## Nick

Focalist said:
			
		

> Traffic circles and roundabouts are NOT the same thing, though. (Will post more about this later if the Topic Police don't get me first for reckless subject-switching! ).


In American English, the terms are identical.

I thought "traffic circle" was a term borrowed from British? I guess not? Anyway, at least in the west the are called "roundabouts". Our city has about 16 roundabouts.


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## Tobycek

Round of applause to Focalist for being (I believe) the first person in this forum to mention Portsmouth this evening. Do you live here as well?
Or are you actually on The Island?

As for a distinctively British usage finding its way into international music, the only thing I can think of is Jerry Lee Lewis singing the rather absurdly posh 
"*goodness gracious*" in 'Great Balls of Fire'... 
T.


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## Edwin

Tobycek said:
			
		

> Round of applause to Focalist for being (I believe) the first person in this forum to mention Portsmouth this evening. Do you live here as well?
> Or are you actually on The Island?
> 
> As for a distinctively British usage finding its way into international music, the only thing I can think of is Jerry Lee Lewis singing the rather absurdly posh
> "*goodness gracious*" in 'Great Balls of Fire'...
> T.



My goodness gracious!  Whatever made you think ''goodness gracious'' is confined to the UK.  I learn it at my mother's knee and she is quite a few generations removed from your islands.


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## Tobycek

OK I stand corrected!
Guess it just sounds fairly old-fashioned.
Do you say "Heavens above" as well?!


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## elroy

In America, I think people just say "Heavens!" if anything.

Correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Nick

"For heaven's sake" and "Oh my heavens!" are much more common.


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## elroy

Yup.  I was just saying that if one were to start the interjection with "Heavens" it would probably not be followed by anything.


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## Edwin

Tobycek said:
			
		

> OK I stand corrected!
> Guess it just sounds fairly old-fashioned.
> Do you say "Heavens above" as well?!



Lordy, lordy!  Heavens to Betsy!  Of course we say ''Heavens above''.   ---At least we do down south.


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## Sharon

Focalist said:
			
		

> I wonder: does anyone know of any examples of distinctively British usage being used in an internationally known popular song?


I would like to add "Ob-la-di, Ob-la-da" by the Beatles.



Desmond has a *barrow* in the market place
Molly is the singer in a band
Desmond says to Molly-girl I like your face
And Molly says this as she takes him by the hand.
Obladi oblada life goes on bra
Lala how the life goes on
Obladi oblada life goes on bra
Lala how the life goes on.
________________________________
The only kind of barrow I could think of was a wheelbarrow. I had to look it up, and we would use "cart" or "stand."

Hmm...thinking...
Sharon.


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## Artrella

Sharon said:
			
		

> I would like to add "Ob-la-di, Ob-la-da" by the Beatles.
> 
> 
> 
> Desmond has a *barrow* in the market place
> Molly is the singer in a band
> Desmond says to Molly-girl I like your face
> And Molly says this as she takes him by the hand.
> Obladi oblada life goes on bra
> Lala how the life goes on
> Obladi oblada life goes on bra
> Lala how the life goes on.
> ________________________________
> The only kind of barrow I could think of was a wheelbarrow. I had to look it up, and we would use "cart" or "stand."
> 
> Hmm...thinking...
> Sharon.






Hi Shar!!  What if the poor man instead of having a stall had a barrow?? Perhaps he sold his goods going down the streets, crying his wares!
   

*
barrow1*
noun Brit. a two-wheeled handcart used especially by *street vendors.
* a wheelbarrow.
DERIVATIVES
barrowload noun.

ORIGIN Old English bearwe stretcher, bier, of Germanic origin; related to BEAR1.


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## Focalist

Nick said:
			
		

> In American English, the terms are identical.
> 
> I thought "traffic circle" was a term borrowed from British? I guess not? Anyway, at least in the west the are called "roundabouts". Our city has about 16 roundabouts.


A roundabout under construction *inside* a traffic circle (prior to scrapping of the latter) at Kingston NY:




Who said that roundabouts waste space? 

Kens has already indicated one webpage indicating the differences between traffic circles and roundabouts.
Here are some more: [1] [2] [3]

For really advanced motorists, there's the "Magic Roundabout" in Swindon, England:





Clockwise round the outside, anti-clockwise round the inside. It does work, BTW! Explanations here (in Italian -- don't want to make it TOO easy!) 

F (Friend of the Roundabout)


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## kens

> Clockwise round the outside, anti-clockwise round the inside. It does work, BTW!


 Heavens above, what a roundabout way of building a traffic circle!!  I think the rationale behind this one must be to make people so dizzy and confused that they are forced to slow down.


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## gotitadeleche

> Lordy, lordy! Heavens to Betsy! Of course we say ''Heavens above''.  ---At least we do down south.




Oh, and don't forget "Heavens to Mergatroid" (sp?)!!


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## Sharon

Artrella said:
			
		

> Hi Shar!! What if the poor man instead of having a stall had a barrow?? Perhaps he sold his goods going down the streets, crying his wares!
> 
> barrow1
> *noun Brit.* a two-wheeled handcart used especially by street vendors.
> a wheelbarrow.


Art,
I never said anything about a stall...
Focalist was asking for examples of distinctively British usage in popular songs, and I was giving him one. Your definition states that it is British. My Webster's dictionary defines barrow as :1) a flat, rectangular tray or cart with handles at each end.  2) a wheelbarrow.

In the US, a street vendor uses a cart or a stand...either one has wheels underneath it, but usually four to allow them to transport more wares. In that usage, I think that "barrow" is distinctively British. 

I have also never heard a wheelbarrow called a barrow.  I can remember that when I was a child, my grandfather used the word "wheelbarrow" and he was born in 1900. I am not trying to say that he would not have recognized the word "barrow," just that he didn't use it. Maybe I'm wrong, but it leads me to  think that that usage is British, also.

Sharon.

 Ok, Brits, what's a barrow?


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## jacinta

gotitadeleche said:
			
		

> Oh, and don't forget "Heavens to Mergatroid" (sp?)!!




I was just thinking of that!  And I have no idea how to spell it either.  And I say it about those roundabouts!!  Heavens to Besty, Heavens to Mergatroid and Stars Above!!  Whew dogey! (sp?)


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## Sharon

I don't know why, but I want to spell it "Murgatroyd."

Sharon.


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## Sharon

I remembered that it came from Snagglepuss, the cartoon cat in Yogi Bear. So I just typed "Heavens to" and Snagglepuss into Google. The first three links have three different spellings for it...I give up!! 

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&c2coff=1&q="Heavens+to"+Snagglepuss&btnG=Search


Sharon.


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## jacinta

Sharon said:
			
		

> I remembered that it came from Snagglepuss, the cartoon cat in Yogi Bear. So I just typed "Heavens to" and Snagglepuss into Google. The first three links have three different spellings for it...I give up!!
> 
> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&c2coff=1&q="Heavens+to"+Snagglepuss&btnG=Search
> 
> 
> Sharon.


Ha, ha,ha!  I was hoping someone would find out for us.  This only goes to show me that we can't always trust the Internet.


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## Edwin

jacinta said:
			
		

> This only goes to show me that we can't always trust the Internet.



Certainly not as a spell checker.  I have been caught by that before.   Deliberately misspell a word and do a Google search on it . Chances are you will get many hits. Which comforts me to know that I am not the only poor speller in the universe.


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## jacinta

jacinta said:
			
		

> I don't get no....Satisfaction!!  (I think we've already used that one but I love it so much)



I shocked myself when I saw this mistake.  Why did no one correct me?  I can't get no satisfaction.  Now I feel better.


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## Learning

Sorry... What's wrong with "I don't get no satisfaction"? We should change don't to "can't" as Jacinta said. But the word "no" should be replaced by "any" (I can't get any satisfaction?
I've been tought to use "no" in affirmative sentences:S
Please answer my doubt 
Thanksss!


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## badger

Hi Art and Shar…
Here’s fodder for your discussion on barrow’s, It’s the lyrics of our Dublin “Anthem”.

BTW…We don’t class ourselves as British, just in case that comes up in the debate.

Badg.   


*Cockles and Mussels, or Molly Malone

Comic Song, Written and Composed by James Yorkston
* 
In Dublin's Fair City
Where the girls are so pretty
I first set my eyes on sweet Molly Malone
As she wheel'd her wheel barrow
Through streets broad and narrow
Crying cockles and mussels alive, alive o!


_Chorus_
Alive, alive o!, alive, alive o!
Crying cockles and mussels alive, alive o!

She was a fishmonger
But sure 'twas no wonder
For so were her father and mother before
And they each wheel'd their barrow
Through streets broad and narrow
Crying cockles and mussels alive, alive o!

_Chorus_

She died of a fever
And no one could save her
And that was the end of sweet Molly Malone
But her ghost wheels her barrow
Through streets broad and narrow
Crying cockles and mussels alive, alive o!

_Chorus_


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## gotitadeleche

badger said:
			
		

> Hi Art and Shar…
> Here’s fodder for your discussion on barrow’s, It’s the lyrics of our Dublin “Anthem”.
> 
> BTW…We don’t class ourselves as British, just in case that comes up in the debate.
> 
> Badg.
> 
> 
> *Cockles and Mussels, or Molly Malone
> 
> Comic Song, Written and Composed by James Yorkston
> *
> In Dublin's Fair City
> Where the girls are so pretty
> I first set my eyes on sweet Molly Malone
> As she wheel'd her wheel barrow
> Through streets broad and narrow
> Crying cockles and mussels alive, alive o!
> 
> 
> _Chorus_
> Alive, alive o!, alive, alive o!
> Crying cockles and mussels alive, alive o!
> 
> She was a fishmonger
> But sure 'twas no wonder
> For so were her father and mother before
> And they each wheel'd their barrow
> Through streets broad and narrow
> Crying cockles and mussels alive, alive o!
> 
> _Chorus_
> 
> She died of a fever
> And no one could save her
> And that was the end of sweet Molly Malone
> But her ghost wheels her barrow
> Through streets broad and narrow
> Crying cockles and mussels alive, alive o!
> 
> _Chorus_



Badger, thanks for the memory!! I was taught that song when I was a teenager (many moons ago!).


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## jacinta

Learning said:
			
		

> Sorry... What's wrong with "I don't get no satisfaction"? We should change don't to "can't" as Jacinta said. But the word "no" should be replaced by "any" (I can't get any satisfaction?
> I've been tought to use "no" in affirmative sentences:S
> Please answer my doubt
> Thanksss!




Oh, sorry Learning  .  I didn't mean to confuse you!  What I am saying in my post is that I quoted wrong the song "Satisfaction" by the Rolling Stones.
I first said in a previous post:  "I don't get no satisfaction", but the song actually goes, "I can't get no satisfaction".  Both are bad grammar.  I'm glad you posted a new question about this.  I just wanted to answer you from where this originated.  I hope you are clear now  .


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## Focalist

jacinta said:
			
		

> "I don't get no satisfaction" [...] "I can't get no satisfaction".  Both are bad grammar.


Both are non-standard grammar, I'd say. "Satisfaction no I get can't": now that _would_ be bad grammar, i.e. no grammar at all.

F


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