# Pm



## Artrella

Hello! 
I have a simple question here.  The rules and mods say that if we have some comment or complaint or "personal chat" to do we should resort to the PM.  But I've noticed that many members of WR have refused (??) access to their PM and/or e-mail.  So what are we supposed to do in these cases? 
I think *that option * (not allowing to send them PM/e-mails) should not be available any more. Or at least leave one of them open.

I hope I made myself clear...


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## mjscott

I agree....You can't have it both ways--though this forum is probably like most businesses--it's hard to see the need for more help until things start breaking down. In the meantime, those employed are working double-time oiling squeaky wheels. Whaddaya think, moderators? Should the forum pay you those big bucks not just to moderate, but to read your e-mail too?


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## cuchuflete

mjscott said:
			
		

> I agree....You can't have it both ways--though this forum is probably like most businesses--it's hard to see the need for more help until things start breaking down. In the meantime, those employed are working double-time oiling squeaky wheels. Whaddaya think, moderators? Should the forum pay you those big bucks not just to moderate, but to read your e-mail too?



MJ--how goes the battle with the "educational" publishing empire?

I will not speak for anyone but myself.

1. The big bucks [unquote!] paid to moderators =o.oo  We are compensated in other ways...principally the pleasure of seeing the forums grow in a generally healthy way.
2. Since I joined this forum last August, I have had both PM and e-mail allowed.  I respond to at least a few dozen PMs per day.  Once in a while I get non-administrative e-mails from foreros...including a few surprising thank-you messages!  I read them and usually respond.
3. I defend the right of each and every forero to refuse PMs and/or e-mails.  
That is not my choice, but I see no reason to require others to think as I do.  This may inconvenience someone who wishes to communicate in private, but the alternative is to inconvenience an unwilling recipient of such messages.  Why should one have greater rights than the other?

As to the squeaky wheel grease gun brigade...those very few wheels do tend to take a disproportionate amount of time and energy.   If they would modulate their squeaks, life would be more calm, but the trade-off might be a less spicey environment.

What do you think?  Should members be forced to accept PMs?

As to the moderator/admin. crew, without exception we have PMs enabled, and in addition to that,  over half accept e-mails.

saludos
Cuchu


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## te gato

Hello All;

I just have to get my two cents in here...He He.

What do you think? Should members be forced to accept PMs? A quote from Cuchu...

I think that it is up to that person weather they choose to accept Private Messages or not.. I will admit that it is very annoying when someone private messages you, you go to answer back and it is full...but what can you do? besides looking like an idiot, talking to your computer screen, as you curse them.... It is their business if they choose to accept them or not...
Yet at the same time..(here we go) I feel that there should be a little bit of "chat" permitted within the threads..I'm not talking about what you did last night, or what you had for dinner, yadda, yadda...I feel that there is nothing wrong with going back in and thanking someone for their help..or even leaving a little message. I found that this makes people feel comfortable, and therefore they do not feel intimidated about asking that "odd" question...at least that is the way I felt. We are not robots spitting out random information... When you have a person ask "Can you tell me how to say love?"..are we just to answer back "amor" and leave it at that? How can we? With so many different opinions out there..there is bound to be a little chat..
Believe me, I don't want to be the ones to stick up for the Moderators. .He he he..but I have gotten away with a bit of "chat"..oh man, should I have said that out loud? (members of the jury, please disregard that last statement)...
In my humble and lowly opinion ..the moderators and admin. crew should answer their private messages and e-mails..there might be something important in there. Yet at the same time the messages should be important..thank you, this thread is in the wrong place (my personal favorite), extra help...not, "hay what did you do last night.." 
Personal choice is a wonderful thing...sometimes a pain in the a** if you are on the other end..looking at "this person has exceeded their personal message quota..yadda, yadda..and your thinking to yourself..well idiot, empty it all ready!!
I plead the 5 th so none of this can be used against me...

te gato


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## DDT

te gato said:
			
		

> Hello All;
> 
> I just have to get my two cents in here...He He.
> 
> What do you think? Should members be forced to accept PMs? A quote from Cuchu...
> 
> I think that it is up to that person weather they choose to accept Private Messages or not.. I will admit that it is very annoying when someone private messages you, you go to answer back and it is full...but what can you do? besides looking like an idiot, talking to your computer screen, as you curse them.... It is their business if they choose to accept them or not...
> Yet at the same time..(here we go) I feel that there should be a little bit of "chat" permitted within the threads..I'm not talking about what you did last night, or what you had for dinner, yadda, yadda...I feel that there is nothing wrong with going back in and thanking someone for their help..or even leaving a little message. I found that this makes people feel comfortable, and therefore they do not feel intimidated about asking that "odd" question...at least that is the way I felt. We are not robots spitting out random information... When you have a person ask "Can you tell me how to say love?"..are we just to answer back "amor" and leave it at that? How can we? With so many different opinions out there..there is bound to be a little chat..
> Believe me, I don't want to be the ones to stick up for the Moderators. .He he he..but I have gotten away with a bit of "chat"..oh man, should I have said that out loud? (members of the jury, please disregard that last statement)...
> In my humble and lowly opinion ..the moderators and admin. crew should answer their private messages and e-mails..there might be something important in there. Yet at the same time the messages should be important..thank you, this thread is in the wrong place (my personal favorite), extra help...not, "hay what did you do last night.."
> Personal choice is a wonderful thing...sometimes a pain in the a** if you are on the other end..looking at "this person has exceeded their personal message quota..yadda, yadda..and your thinking to yourself..well idiot, empty it all ready!!
> I plead the 5 th so none of this can be used against me...
> 
> te gato



I do agree, no one is supposed to accept Pms or e-mails. Except for us.
All the mods and the adm normally accept PMs, that's part of our roles.
Personally I don't accept e-mails for a matter of privacy, but I always answer PMs.

Concerning the friendly convivial tone of some replies we have nothing against them  Let me invite you to notice that we normally ask to avoid chatting or close a thread when the thread itself is full of OT replies. Two main reasons:
1. Many members did (and still do) complain of excessive chat in forums - and WR is a cultural forum, not a chat
2. Threads are made dull reading by too many OT posts

DDT


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## Artrella

So... what should we do then, if PMs are not compulsory?  If there is a person who says nasty things to me and I don't want to post my complaint in order not to interrupt the cultural atmosphere in the forum, what shall I do?
Shall I PM some mod and tell them "Look XX has been rude to me, or has said this or that"?
How are you sure that your PM to the mods will be effective?  What if the person who has insulted you is the mod's best friend?  Will them put that person in their place?
I think WR should give us some channel of communication to express our thoughts (we have to leave all in the mods' hands).  We do have ideas and the right to express them in our own way.  
I agree with the "community" in that to make our thoughts known in the middle of a thread would not be the best way, so please give us the chance of letting off steam .

Hope this helps to keep WR running in the best way.

Best wishes,
Art


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## beatrizg

To a certain extent, Artrella is right. It often gets frustrating and confusing not knowing to what extent we can behave and communicate as human beings here (and not as 'word producing machines'  ). 
The line is very fine and sometimes I find it’s movable.  

I don’t know what the solution is, if it is PMs or not, but a discussion on this subject is useful and necessary.


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## DDT

Artrella said:
			
		

> So... what should we do then, if PMs are not compulsory?  If there is a person who says nasty things to me and I don't want to post my complaint in order not to interrupt the cultural atmosphere in the forum, what shall I do?
> Shall I PM some mod and tell them "Look XX has been rude to me, or has said this or that"?
> How are you sure that your PM to the mods will be effective?  What if the person who has insulted you is the mod's best friend?  Will them put that person in their place?



I think that's the best way to act.
I consider most people accept PMs so that you might seldom happen not to be able to directly post someone. In the opposite case mods cannot contact a member refusing to accept PMs and e-mails either so that I suggest you contact directly Mr Kellogg when having problems with someone refusing both PMs and e-mails.

Mods are there to prevent from attacks too. So that as long as a member accepting PMs and/or e-mails is being rude and you prefer not to directly deal with him/her, please don't hesitate to contact a mod you trust. That's part of our role and I am sure every mod will defend you from insults. Friendship doesn't exclude politeness 

DDT


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## cuchuflete

There is yet another way to alert the entire staff of moderators to a problem post.

In the upper right corner of every thread screen is a small red triangle:



 





> *Note*: This is ONLY to be used to report spam, advertising messages, and problematic (harassment, fighting, or





> rude) posts.


 

A text box is there, in which you may write your concern or complaint.

These messages are sent to all of the moderators.

Unfortunately, some people don't read the simple instruction, and use this feature to report duplicate threads and other things the mods routinely clean up.  As a result, I am usually in no particular hurry to read the resulting messages.  Still, they all get read, and by more than one moderator.

As to people whose PM capacity has been reached, I don't know what to do.  If someone has a capacity of 100 messages, and never clears out old messages, then I suppose you would not be able to send a PM. 

Here's a thought-- If you have a complaint, and have doubts about the possibile reaction of any one Mod, send it to many Mods...the PM system allows for up to five addressees.

I hope this helps,
Cuchu


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## Artrella

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> There is yet another way to alert the entire staff of moderators to a problem post.
> 
> In the upper right corner of every thread screen is a small red triangle:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A text box is there, in which you may write your concern or complaint.
> 
> These messages are sent to all of the moderators.
> 
> Unfortunately, some people don't read the simple instruction, and use this feature to report duplicate threads and other things the mods routinely clean up.  As a result, I am usually in no particular hurry to read the resulting messages.  Still, they all get read, and by more than one moderator.
> 
> As to people whose PM capacity has been reached, I don't know what to do.  If someone has a capacity of 100 messages, and never clears out old messages, then I suppose you would not be able to send a PM.
> 
> Here's a thought-- If you have a complaint, and have doubts about the possibile reaction of any one Mod, send it to many Mods...the PM system allows for up to five addressees.
> 
> I hope this helps,
> Cuchu




Yes, I knew about this triangle.  Well, so I will send my queries to the mod I've been contacting up to now.  Thx all of us for having replied though the problem isn't solved yet.  We are still in the same situation.


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## Benjy

Artrella said:
			
		

> We are still in the same situation.



with regards to what?


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## Artrella

Benjy said:
			
		

> with regards to what?



With the subject this thread deals with.


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## cuchuflete

Let's suppose, just for purposes of discussion, and to assuage the feelings of a theoretical person who feels that they have been treated improperly, that we make it mandatory for all foreros to enable PMs.

--I send a PM to the person who has behaved in a way I find unpleasant.

What if they don't open their PMs?
Do we now bar all foreros from opening or reading threads, until and unless they have opened their PMs?  Okay. Suppose we do that.

What if they open the PMs, just to unblock access to threads, but don't read them, and delete them immediately, as they never wanted to receive PMs in the first place?

What will we have accomplished?

Here is a 'live' example.  Very recently, a new forero began sending me PMs that might be described as SPAM.  At first I read them and answered them politely.
When my request to stop sending SPAM was ignored, I changed tactics.  I read and then deleted the SPAM.  Now I delete it before reading it.  As far as that fellow is concerned, I may as well have PMs disabled!


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## Artrella

I understand your point Cuchufléte.  But we foreros don't have a way to express our feelings other than by means of the mods.  I would like to be free to express how I feel with my own words .  Not only for complaints, but for "chat" also.  I don't want my words to go through the mod's sifter all the time.  But I will abide by the existing rules, this was just a question and you and the rest have replied to it.  
As far as I'm concerned this subject is over.

A-


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## Benjy

Artrella said:
			
		

> I understand your point Cuchufléte.  But we foreros don't have a way to express our feelings other than by means of the mods.  I would like to be free to express how I feel with my own words .  Not only for complaints, but for "chat" also.  I don't want my words to go through the mod's sifter all the time.  But I will abide by the existing rules, this was just a question and you and the rest have replied to it.
> As far as I'm concerned this subject is over.
> 
> A-



you don't have to reply to this if you don't wish (i did note that you regard the matter as closed ) but as it has been pointed out numerous times there are places where you can chat.. things have been done to try and accomadate everyone, if you don't want to use them thats fine, but i find it rather surprising that after having provided alternatives the same questions keep poping up time after time after time.


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## Artrella

Benjy said:
			
		

> you don't have to reply to this if you don't wish (i did note that you regard the matter as closed ) but as it has been pointed out numerous times there are places where you can chat.. things have been done to try and accomadate everyone, if you don't want to use them thats fine, but i find it rather surprising that after having provided alternatives the same questions keep poping up time after time after time.




Benjy, I know that there are many places for chatting.  I was talking about another thing.  And it is "I" not "i" >>> I am surprised at this, you must have read thousands of times that it is "I" and in spite of that, you keep writing "i"...


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## lauranazario

Artrella said:
			
		

> Hello!
> I have a simple question here.  The rules and mods say that if we have some comment or complaint or "personal chat" to do we should resort to the PM.  But I've noticed that many members of WR have refused (??) access to their PM and/or e-mail.  So what are we supposed to do in these cases?
> I think *that option * (not allowing to send them PM/e-mails) should not be available any more. Or at least leave one of them open.
> 
> I hope I made myself clear...



Okay, since you are referring to a suggestion I have _personally_ given on a number of ocassions while intervening as a Mod... 

Please keep in mind that some poeple are here for the purpose of reading our posts, contributing to our language discussions, and learning from what's been said in our threads. These people may very well NOT be interested in "socializing" with any members of the forums and therefore have exercised their option to NOT receive PMs or emails. Maybe they turned "off" their PMs because they were being bombarded by unwelcome messages, who knows. They all must have their personal reasons. 

"Forcing" people to enable their PMs just sounds like too much... and an unwelcome imposition on forums members who for the most part mind their own business. 

Should your concern ensue from a security standpoint, I'm sure Mike Kellogg must have a way to communicate with EVERY registered user if he needs to. After all, an email address is part of the registration process, _n'est pas?_

Saludos,
LN


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## Benjy

artrella said:
			
		

> would like to be free to express how I feel with my own words . Not only for complaints, but for "chat" also.



what were you talking about then?


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## Artrella

lauranazario said:
			
		

> Okay, since you are referring to a suggestion I have _personally_ given on a number of ocassions while intervening as a Mod...
> 
> Please keep in mind that some people are here for the purpose of reading our posts, contributing to our language discussions, and learning from what's been said in our threads. These people may very well NOT be interested in "socializing" with any members of the forums and therefore have exercised their option to NOT receive PMs or emails. Maybe they turned "off" their PMs because they were being bombarded by unwelcome messages, who knows. They all must have their personal reasons.
> 
> "Forcing" people to enable their PMs just sounds like too much... and an unwelcome imposition on forums members who for the most part mind their own business.
> 
> Should your concern ensue from a security standpoint, I'm sure Mike Kellogg must have a way to communicate with EVERY registered user if he needs to. After all, an email address is part of the registration process, _n'est pas?_
> 
> Saludos,
> LN




*I don't want to force anything.*  I was just asking a question -this forum is intended for that purpose, isn't it?  This has grown out of the limits of my question.
I repeat, my question was replied.  I don't need further information.  I am fully aware of the rules of WR, and know about chatting rooms.  I am not a chatterbox as many people consider me.  I know what I am doing. Please stop saying "you have many chat rooms on the net".  I know that.  I was not born yesterday, _vous comprenez ma dame_? I am respectful and helpful.  And most of all I abide by the rules.
So please, leave things at that.  *I repeat >>> I just wanted to ask a * *question and it has been replied.*  Don't extend this to take advantage of it and say things we don't want to say.  Anyone of us.


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## lauranazario

te gato said:
			
		

> I feel that there should be a little bit of "chat" permitted within the threads..I'm not talking about what you did last night, or what you had for dinner, yadda, yadda...I feel that there is nothing wrong with going back in and thanking someone for their help..or even leaving a little message. I found that this makes people feel comfortable, and therefore they do not feel intimidated about asking that "odd" question...at least that is the way I felt. We are not robots spitting out random information...



Hi TeGato. You raise a very valid point... and I have to agree that there IS a reasonable --emphasis on the word reasonable-- amount of natural chat that goes on in most threads and in most forums. 

Here is an example of a thread that has everything you have mentioned --robot-like replies, in-depth discussion, a couple of thank-yous, one 'you're forgiven', a small act of diverting into a second question, and a reply to that. Now this thread was allowed to run its course in a normal and natural progression that is in no way, shape or form is even close to an "inhuman exchange". This is a good example of the type of discussion that should be taking place in WR... see this thread: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=18390

Now on the other hand... when people veer into personal conversation that has absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand, THEN AND ONLY THEN do we intervene as Mods. This is an example of such an intervention: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=16243
And please note the opposing reactions even when my intervention attempted to keep a light, non-dictatorial tone. It just goes to show that you can't please eveyone! 

I hope none of the people involved in these two examples will find offense at my having chosen these particular threads. These threads are intended to provide examples of acceptable and non-acceptable situations... and not to single anyone out. Understood?

Saludos,
LN


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## lauranazario

Artrella said:
			
		

> Please stop saying "you have many chat rooms on the net".  I know that.  I was not born yesterday, _vous comprenez ma dame_?



Artrella, this particular 'ma dame' [sic] did not say anything about chatrooms. You must be confusing me with someone else. 

Saludos,
LN


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## Artrella

lauranazario said:
			
		

> Artrella, this particular 'ma dame' [sic] did not say anything about chatrooms. You must be confusing me with someone else.
> 
> Saludos,
> LN




I am sorry for confusing you with somebody else.  

Regards, 
A


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## gaer

Artrella said:
			
		

> Benjy, I know that there are many places for chatting. I was talking about another thing. And it is "I" not "i" >>> I am surprised at this, you must have read thousands of times that it is "I" and in spite of that, you keep writing "i"...


Art, many people type in all lower-case to save time. You would be making a huge mistake to assume that anyone who does so does not understand English or is writing in a way that is sub-standard. It often has as much to do with ease in typing as anything else. 

Gaer


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## Artrella

gaer said:
			
		

> Art, many people type in all lower-case to save time. You would be making a huge mistake to assume that anyone who does so does not understand English or is writing in a way that is sub-standard. It often has as much to do with ease in typing as anything else.
> 
> Gaer




Ok, Gaer. But this is a forum specialized in languages, so the use of capital letters and punctuation marks is really important, because there are people here who come to WR to learn English and other languages and they can be confused by this "misuse" of lower-case.  And if someone wants to write upside-down or inside-out they could go to that cheap forums that appear all over the net.  We must try to give WR the place it deserves, and I don't think that writing the way you personally like (which of course you are entitled to do ) will help this place to reach the cultural level it is intended to have. You must know this, you are learning German as well.  

Regards,
A-


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## te gato

Lauranazario;
Thank you for the threads..I did read through them...and yes I agree, there is a time and a place..as I have stated..

Believe me, I don't want to be the ones to stick up for the Moderators. .He he he..but I have gotten away with a bit of "chat"..oh man, should I have said that out loud? (members of the jury, please disregard that last statement)...

I will be the first to admit that I HAVE gotten away with a little (and I stress little) chat...I feel that if it has to do with the subject at hand, why not? I also agree that if it jumps off the tracks, and starts going in the direction of "Bob whatcha doing tonight?" then yes shut it down...I think that part of the problem is that we are never sure how much chat is acceptible, but with this, one phrase comes to mind.."live and learn". You overstep your bounds, you will soon find out...
On the other hand....and if I offend anyone I am sorry for that is not my intention...if I was to be insulted, or belittled within that thread I will come back with claws extended, and personally ask for an explanation before I would PM a mod..I am a human first, and an adult (debatable I know) .... I have been allowed to do this..Thank you...and we should be allowed to do this..before the Mods step in and slap our hand.... 
It all boils down to who do you trust or like within the Mods and go from there...if nothing is resolved there then go to the top "brass" and hope that something happens...Still, if nothing is done about the situation then what do we do?? Where do we go from there?? It is human nature not to "like" some people, even when we do not "really" know them...the way they express themselves, the phrases they use, yadda, yadda...but that is no excuse to belittle them in front of God and everyone....
So Mods...In this situation, what would you recommend? What are your thoughts and Ideas????

te gato 

P.S. I still plead the 5th on this...
and if that won't work..I plead "Back-woods" hick Alberta ignorance..


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## gaer

Artrella said:
			
		

> Ok, Gaer. But this is a forum specialized in languages, so the use of capital letters and punctuation marks is really important, because there are people here who come to WR to learn English and other languages and they can be confused by this "misuse" of lower-case. And if someone wants to write upside-down or inside-out they could go to that cheap forums that appear all over the net. We must try to give WR the place it deserves, and I don't think that writing the way you personally like (which of course you are entitled to do ) will help this place to reach the cultural level it is intended to have. You must know this, you are learning German as well.
> 
> Regards,
> A-


I understand your point. But I'm trying to explain to you that INTELLIGENT people typing in all lower-case is more common than you realize, so in a way learning to "deal with it" is "also" a part of learning "how we do things in English". 

It's all a learning process, Art. It can go either way. Let me give you an extreme example. I read a Pulitzer Prize-winning book, originally in Portugese. I can't read Portugese. The German transalation was all in lower-case because the novel, in Portugese, was written that way. As you know, reading with no capitals is much stranger in German, but I really had no problem.

A greater problem would be if SOME words were capitalized, but not others.

This should really be in another area though. Would you and others like to continue this in a thread about "all lower-case" writing? 

All the best,

Gaer


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## Artrella

gaer said:
			
		

> I understand your point. But I'm trying to explain to you that INTELLIGENT people typing in all lower-case is more common than you realize, so in a way learning to "deal with it" is "also" a part of learning "how we do things in English".
> 
> It's all a learning process, Art. It can go either way. Let me give you an extreme example. I read a Pulitzer Prize-winning book, originally in Portugese. I can't read Portugese. The German transalation was all in lower-case because the novel, in Portugese, was written that way. As you know, reading with no capitals is much stranger in German, but I really had no problem.
> 
> A greater problem would be if SOME words were capitalized, but not others.
> 
> This should really be in another area though. Would you and others like to continue this in a thread about "all lower-case" writing?
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Gaer



Gaer I respect your opinion, but I don't agree.

Best wishes (h & k)


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## Benjy

te gato said:
			
		

> Lauranazario;
> Thank you for the threads..I did read through them...and yes I agree, there is a time and a place..as I have stated..
> 
> Believe me, I don't want to be the ones to stick up for the Moderators. .He he he..but I have gotten away with a bit of "chat"..oh man, should I have said that out loud? (members of the jury, please disregard that last statement)...
> 
> I will be the first to admit that I HAVE gotten away with a little (and I stress little) chat...I feel that if it has to do with the subject at hand, why not? I also agree that if it jumps off the tracks, and starts going in the direction of "Bob whatcha doing tonight?" then yes shut it down...I think that part of the problem is that we are never sure how much chat is acceptible, but with this, one phrase comes to mind.."live and learn". You overstep your bounds, you will soon find out...
> On the other hand....and if I offend anyone I am sorry for that is not my intention...if I was to be insulted, or belittled within that thread I will come back with claws extended, and personally ask for an explanation before I would PM a mod..I am a human first, and an adult (debatable I know) .... I have been allowed to do this..Thank you...and we should be allowed to do this..before the Mods step in and slap our hand....
> It all boils down to who do you trust or like within the Mods and go from there...if nothing is resolved there then go to the top "brass" and hope that something happens...Still, if nothing is done about the situation then what do we do?? Where do we go from there?? It is human nature not to "like" some people, even when we do not "really" know them...the way they express themselves, the phrases they use, yadda, yadda...but that is no excuse to belittle them in front of God and everyone....
> So Mods...In this situation, what would you recommend? What are your thoughts and Ideas????
> 
> te gato
> 
> P.S. I still plead the 5th on this...
> and if that won't work..I plead "Back-woods" hick Alberta ignorance..



<personal opinion>
I think you have summed up the situation pretty well =] The truth is that common sense has to reign or you have to move to extremes (no chat or lots and lots and lots of chat). We (read: the mods) try to be as consistent as possible in regulating the enjoyable banter which goes on in these forums, we probably don't always get it right, but like you said we live and we learn.

As for insults.. it really IS better to take the off the boards, because 1) the person might not have meant what she said in the same way as you read it 2) others may get involved and things can snowball 3) it's just not cool to have arguments. All that said, I'll admit that i'ts hard to swallow ones pride when unwarrented comments are made but that is what we would ask everyone to do, for the (super cliché) good of the boards and the community which reads them.
</personal opinion>


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## lauranazario

te gato said:
			
		

> It all boils down to who do you trust or like within the Mods and go from there...if nothing is resolved there then go to the top "brass" and hope that something happens...Still, if nothing is done about the situation then what do we do?? Where do we go from there?? It is human nature not to "like" some people, even when we do not "really" know them...the way they express themselves, the phrases they use, yadda, yadda...but that is no excuse to belittle them in front of God and everyone....
> So Mods...In this situation, what would you recommend? What are your thoughts and Ideas????]



First let me point out that we're addressing something that is NOT within the original topic, which was finding a way to communicate with people who chose to not activate their PM preferences. So for all practical pursposes we're going off-topic on this one. 

Now that being said, I don't understand your statement because it seems to be intermingled with a personal "like or dislike" aspect (yours or anyboby else's). 

There ARE effective ways to contact a Mod or the "top brass" (as you call it) in the case someone is being offensive to you or any Forero. It's called the "Report-a-Post Feature" (the triangle icon). Furthermore, there is the computer icon, which also connects with the approrpiate "higher authorities". In addition, there is the PM feature. In case you were wondering, PM activation is mandatory for all Mods, so that means we receive PMs from those Foreros who address them to us. So that totals not one, not two, but three channels through which you can contact the Administrator and/or Mods. Three channels that can be used by anyone to voice their concerns regarding innapropriate use of these forums. Although not recommendable, any of these three channels may also be used to address something as utterly subjective as a "like or dislike".

Have I answered your question? 

Saludos,
LN


----------



## te gato

Benjy said:
			
		

> <personal opinion>
> I think you have summed up the situation pretty well =] The truth is that common sense has to reign or you have to move to extremes (no chat or lots and lots and lots of chat). We (read: the mods) try to be as consistent as possible in regulating the enjoyable banter which goes on in these forums, we probably don't always get it right, but like you said we live and we learn.
> 
> As for insults.. it really IS better to take the off the boards, because 1) the person might not have meant what she said in the same way as you read it 2) others may get involved and things can snowball 3) it's just not cool to have arguments. All that said, I'll admit that i'ts hard to swallow ones pride when unwarrented comments are made but that is what we would ask everyone to do, for the (super cliché) good of the boards and the community which reads them.
> </personal opinion>


Benjy;
I thank you for your 
comments...I agree I did "sum it up pretty well"... 
As for the insults part...I am not talking about coming back with "You a**, you called me stupid!"in front of everyone and now I want your blood... There is a nice way of doing that...I do not agree that you should take it off the boards...that person insulted you "In Front" of everyone...and most people (in my opinion) know an insult when they read it....do you not think that the chance should be given to that individual to explain  their actions and words before we go running and crying to the Mods?...After all "Everyone" else would like to know why things were said in that manner as well...
I am not talking about getting into a heated argument...just an explanation...and then things can be resolved quickly...

te gato


----------



## lsp

lauranazario said:
			
		

> ... Furthermore, there is the computer icon...


Where is that? I'm not sure I've seen a computer icon and I usually chalk things like this up to being on a MAC, but I know you are too..???


----------



## cuchuflete

te gato said:
			
		

> I will be the first to admit that I HAVE gotten away with a little (and I stress little) chat...I feel that if it has to do with the subject at hand, why not? I also agree that if it jumps off the tracks, and starts going in the direction of "Bob whatcha doing tonight?" then yes shut it down...I think that part of the problem is that we are never sure how much chat is acceptible, but with this, one phrase comes to mind.."live and learn". You overstep your bounds, you will soon find out...
> 
> 
> So Mods...In this situation, what would you recommend? What are your thoughts and Ideas????
> 
> te gato



Hola Te Gato-

I have joined you in a great many threads, and I don't think of your posting as chatty.  Yes, your style is informal and  friendly, and not always 'pure business', but you don't, at least in my memory, cross the line into superficial remarks that add nothing to the topic at hand.  



> So Mods...In this situation, what would you recommend? What are your thoughts and Ideas????


  Please help me understand your question-- Is it about what constitutes chat, or Artrella's original question about what to do if one feels offended?  If it's the latter, I've already answered it.

There are certainly enough Mods available that at least one should be available to receive a complaint, and the red triangle option will notify all the mods.  As previously stated, a PM can be sent to 5 mods at one time.

If these options are insufficient for one's needs, I'm afraid I just don't understand why.   

Back to chattiness--- I've read thousands of posts, perhaps tens of thousands.  I may have deleted about seven or eight.  That averages out to about one per month since I became a moderator.  I think I've asked thread participants to be careful not to stray too far from the topic three or four times.  I have closed one thread. It was not deleted.  

Other mods may be a bit more, or a bit less, interventionist.  In general however, we have a fairly 'hands off' approach, and depend on the common sense of our fellow members to keep the forums moving happily and healthfully.

There are a very few members...I needn't name them....if you browse the forums who know them...who frequently go out of their way to paint the mods as brutal policemen.  They try to draw attention to themselves by worrying out loud about thread closures, censorship, 'getting into trouble with the authorities' and on and on.  

Those posts have gone *un*deleted as well.  

I trust that a huge majority of the members have no issues with the entire topic.  They come here to discuss language and culture, and do so freely in their own personal styles.

If it would help anyone to see what we, the moderators, have deleted for excessive chattiness, I'm sure we could start a thread that includes deleted posts, with the names of the posting members removed.

What do you think?

saludos,
Cuchu


----------



## te gato

lauranazario said:
			
		

> First let me point out that we're addressing something that is NOT within the original topic, which was finding a way to communicate with people who chose to not activate their PM preferences. So for all practical pursposes we're going off-topic on this one.
> 
> Have I answered your question?
> 
> Saludos,
> LN


Yes lauranazario;
You have answered my question..
As for the going off-topic, point taken.
Thank you
te gato


----------



## Benjy

because i love you so, here it is...


----------



## lsp

Benjy said:
			
		

> because i love you so, here it is...


You are too good to me, as usual,    but aren't you showing me the triangle icon and not the computer icon? LN mentions 3 ways to contact a mod; the triangle icon, the computer icon and the PM (she forgot the 4th, be a damsel in distress and you magically summon Benjy).


----------



## belén

No, I think there is a misunderstanding here.

The computer icon that Laura is referring to, can only be seen by the mods in each forum. That's why lsp can't see it..

Sorry about that, on behave of Laura...

Belén


----------



## lsp

belen said:
			
		

> No, I think there is a misunderstanding here.
> 
> The computer icon that Laura is referring to, can only be seen by the mods in each forum. That's why lsp can't see it..
> 
> Sorry about that, on behave of Laura...
> 
> Belén


What a relief, because I was afraid I was surely reaching my quota of dumb questions for the year already! Thanks!


----------



## Benjy

lsp said:
			
		

> You are too good to me, as usual,    but aren't you showing me the triangle icon and not the computer icon? LN mentions 3 ways to contact a mod; the triangle icon, the computer icon and the PM (she forgot the 4th, be a damsel in distress and you magically summon Benjy).



haha. right you are, my fault for not reading your quesiton properly


----------



## te gato

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Hola Te Gato-
> 
> I have joined you in a great many threads, and I don't think of your posting as chatty. Yes, your style is informal and friendly, and not always 'pure business', but you don't, at least in my memory, cross the line into superficial remarks that add nothing to the topic at hand.
> 
> Thank you Sir...now I am blushing...
> 
> Please help me understand your question-- Is it about what constitutes chat, or Artrella's original question about what to do if one feels offended? If it's the latter, I've already answered it.
> 
> Yes you have..Thank you again...or should I say still...
> 
> 
> 
> Back to chattiness---
> 
> Other mods may be a bit more, or a bit less, interventionist. In general however, we have a fairly 'hands off' approach, and depend on the common sense of our fellow members to keep the forums moving happily and healthfully.
> 
> I concur....
> 
> There are a very few members...I needn't name them....if you browse the forums who know them...who frequently go out of their way to paint the mods as brutal policemen. They try to draw attention to themselves by worrying out loud about thread closures, censorship, 'getting into trouble with the authorities' and on and on.
> 
> Those posts have gone *un*deleted as well.
> I have seen these as well...
> 
> I trust that a huge majority of the members have no issues with the entire topic. They come here to discuss language and culture, and do so freely in their own personal styles.
> Yup!..
> 
> If it would help anyone to see what we, the moderators, have deleted for excessive chattiness, I'm sure we could start a thread that includes deleted posts, with the names of the posting members removed.
> There is no need to start a thread on "deleted" posts...I am sure it would be miniscule...but thank you for thinking of it....
> 
> saludos,
> Cuchu


Cuchu;
I appreciate your candor and your honesty in regards to this....
Now, If you will excuse me I will be quiet before my big mouth and fast brain, slow fingers get me into more trouble...I have been de-clawed once, once is enough.... 
Thank you all for your answers and comments...It is appreciated....
te gato


----------



## lauranazario

MY BAD! 

I am sorry... what I called "the computer icon" is:
1) NOT a way to send a message to Mods
2) Not visible to Foreros
The "triangle icon" is software utility seen by Moderators.

That being said, I rephrase what I said on an earlier post. Foreros have two ways of contacting Mods and/or the Administrator: PMs and the Report-a-Post feature (triangle icon).

Thanks, lsp and sorry for the confusion.
Thanks Belén and Benjy for clearing up my unintentional _mix-up_ before I got back here.

Saludos,
LN


----------



## gaer

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Hola Te Gato-
> 
> I have joined you in a great many threads, and I don't think of your posting as chatty. Yes, your style is informal and friendly, and not always 'pure business', but you don't, at least in my memory, cross the line into superficial remarks that add nothing to the topic at hand.
> 
> Please help me understand your question-- Is it about what constitutes chat, or Artrella's original question about what to do if one feels offended? If it's the latter, I've already answered it.
> 
> There are certainly enough Mods available that at least one should be available to receive a complaint, and the red triangle option will notify all the mods. As previously stated, a PM can be sent to 5 mods at one time.
> 
> If these options are insufficient for one's needs, I'm afraid I just don't understand why.
> 
> Back to chattiness--- I've read thousands of posts, perhaps tens of thousands. I may have deleted about seven or eight. That averages out to about one per month since I became a moderator. I think I've asked thread participants to be careful not to stray too far from the topic three or four times. I have closed one thread. It was not deleted.
> 
> Other mods may be a bit more, or a bit less, interventionist. In general however, we have a fairly 'hands off' approach, and depend on the common sense of our fellow members to keep the forums moving happily and healthfully.
> 
> There are a very few members...I needn't name them....if you browse the forums who know them...who frequently go out of their way to paint the mods as brutal policemen. They try to draw attention to themselves by worrying out loud about thread closures, censorship, 'getting into trouble with the authorities' and on and on.
> 
> Those posts have gone *un*deleted as well.
> 
> I trust that a huge majority of the members have no issues with the entire topic. They come here to discuss language and culture, and do so freely in their own personal styles.
> 
> If it would help anyone to see what we, the moderators, have deleted for excessive chattiness, I'm sure we could start a thread that includes deleted posts, with the names of the posting members removed.
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> saludos,
> Cuchu


Cuchu, 

In my experience, everything you just said is quite fair. I want to say something else, and frankly I don't give a hoot if it irritates anyone. Members often have much MORE freedom than MODs, because MODs are supposed to keep themselves in check at all times. 

Members do NOT have to exercise as much restraint, which allows ME to say, I don't care if…" 

It's a true "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation, and I yet to see any unfair or unwarranted censorship.

I also can only think of one instance when a MOD did not answer a PM addressed to him (or her). And that could easily be an oversight. In contrast, I have gotten numerous emails from MODs that have been tremendously helpful.

Just my experience and my opinion… 

Gaer


----------



## cuchuflete

lsp said:
			
		

> Where is that? I'm not sure I've seen a computer icon and I usually chalk things like this up to being on a MAC, but I know you are too..???



No wonder your posts are so brilliant...a fellow Mac user!  You have a quartetto di Macherristi (sp?) at your service, including LN, myself, DDT, and  a bonus player to be announced shortly!  No need to play damsel in distress...Benjy can be bribed with a technical challange as well as chocolate.

I'd best get back on topic, or some big bad mod will come along and exile me
to the ESL forum.

Seriously, the computer icon only appears on the screen of those of us who need to be reminded that we are using a computer, and not a manual  Underwood or Olivetti typewriter.

ciao,
Cuciu


----------



## lsp

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> No wonder your posts are so brilliant...a fellow Mac user!  You have a quartetto di Macherristi (sp?) at your service, including LN, myself, DDT, and  a bonus player to be announced shortly!  No need to play damsel in distress...Benjy can be bribed with a technical challange as well as chocolate.
> 
> I'd best get back on topic, or some big bad mod will come along and exile me
> to the ESL forum.
> 
> Seriously, the computer icon only appears on the screen of those of us who need to be reminded that we are using a computer, and not a manual  Underwood or Olivetti typewriter.
> 
> ciao,
> Cuciu


It may be off topic, but it would be even ruder not to thank you. I thought I felt the kindred spirit(s)...! 

I see for the first time above the Advanced Reply text box that it is not so OT after all ("Clarification, context, additional information, rebuttal, *thank-you* or other message:"). Phew.


----------



## cuchuflete

lsp said:
			
		

> I see for the first time above the Advanced Reply text box that it is not so OT after all ("Clarification, context, additional information, rebuttal, *thank-you* or other message:"). Phew.




Yes, it took a concerted effort by all the Mods to get Mike to add that "Phew" category to the allowable responses.  

Your courtesy is appreciated.

Cuchu


----------



## lsp

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> ....Benjy can be bribed with a technical chall*e*nge as well as chocolate....


C, Normally I wouldn't say anything about spelling (goodness knows it would be a full-time job following Benjy's fast fingers around the forums ), but since it's another 'a' for 'e' mistake today, I couldn't resist. Hope you don't mind, L


----------



## badger

lauranazario said:
			
		

> Okay, since you are referring to a suggestion I have _personally_ given on a number of ocassions while intervening as a Mod...
> LN



Hello lauranazario.

How do we know when you are intervening '*not* as a mod'?

You *always* wear your moderator badge as far as I can see.


badger.


----------



## Benjy

badger said:
			
		

> Hello lauranazario.
> 
> How do we know when you are intervening '*not* as a mod'?
> 
> You *always* wear your moderator badge as far as I can see.
> 
> 
> badger.



a mod is only mod when in fact he or she is being a mod!

explanation best served by an example:

joe bloggs asks for a translation. i post and give him his translation.

in the case i think the chances are i was probably not doing anything that a normal member wouldn't do, hence one mught say that i was acting as a member.

joe bloggs posts something totally outrageous! i say "excuse me joe, would you refrain from posting such things". there i am doing something that a moderator would do, hence one might say that i was acting as a mod.

thats my whole take on the situation. i suppose i could make another account for when i do normal member like things then it would be really obvious what was going on. it would just be rather inconveniant =[


----------



## badger

Benjy said:
			
		

> a mod is only mod when in fact he or she is being a mod!
> 
> explanation best served by an example:
> 
> joe bloggs asks for a translation. i post and give him his translation.
> 
> in the case i think the chances are i was probably not doing anything that a normal member wouldn't do, hence one mught say that i was acting as a member.
> 
> joe bloggs posts something totally outrageous! i say "excuse me joe, would you refrain from posting such things". there i am doing something that a moderator would do, hence one might say that i was acting as a mod.
> 
> thats my whole take on the situation. i suppose i could make another account for when i do normal member like things then it would be really obvious what was going on. it would just be rather inconveniant =[



Hi Benjy 

So what mode are you in with the above post?

badger.


----------



## Benjy

badger said:
			
		

> Hi Benjy
> 
> So what mode are you in with the above post?
> 
> badger.


OHHHH good question. I'm being a mod  but does it really matter? i'm not trying to blur the lines but i don't want, for the sake of trying to make things go a smoother in my forum, to be excluded from the fun of discussing linguistics becuse under my name it says moderator.


----------



## te gato

lauranazario said:
			
		

> Now that being said, I don't understand your statement because it seems to be intermingled with a personal "like or dislike" aspect (yours or anyboby else's).
> 
> Saludos,
> LN


 
lauranazario;
I did not mean for this statement to be offensive in any way, shape, or form...I just stated a fact----- It has often been said,(written) by people, in numerous threads,  that  if you have a complaint, question..yadda, yadda.."to PM your favorite Mod". That was what I was trying to get across.....

te gato


----------



## Benjy

badger said:
			
		

> Simple answer...Yes!  It matters to me.  I need to know if your words carry the authority of a moderator or not.  If they do then I've no choice but to accept them.  I see no point in complaining because the complaint will be heard behind closed doors and I as an ordinary member will not be privy to what's said there.
> 
> badger.



complain about what? 

these forums are mikes and the final say on how they are run obviously belongs to him, but to infer that members are ignored when they see ways improve the boards is a little unfair.


----------



## lauranazario

badger said:
			
		

> Hello lauranazario.
> 
> How do we know when you are intervening '*not* as a mod'?
> 
> You *always* wear your moderator badge as far as I can see.
> badger.



Hi Badger, nice to see you again.

A Moderator usually intervenes in "Moderator Mode" when he/she is trying to uphold the rules of use within the WR forums. These attempts include, but are not limited to:
• Reminding people to maintain a cordial, non-confrontational tone
• Telling people to avoid off-topic conversation or personal chatter within a thread
• Instructing people of the desirability of assigning relevant thread names
• Instructing people of the desirability of providing context
• Deleting posts when deemed necessary or irrelevant to the ongoing conversation in a given thread
• ...and more​
Instances where Any Mod is acting as a regular Forero include, but are not limited to:
• Replying to threads so as to provide topic-related answers or insight
• Correcting other Foreros' linguistic mistakes
• Posting questions and/or feedback
• Expressing a personal opinion
• Exchanging views with other Foreros on the topic at hand (in any given thread)
• ... and more​
While Moderators always carry the same "title" under their names --in the same fashion that a Senior or Junior Member does-- I feel it's pretty easy to see when we are not carrying out "moderating/administrative/operational" duties and are basically using these forums as any regular user does. As a matter of fact, I believe that is the best guideline for everyone... when a Mod is not behaving in an "administrative/operational mode", then he/she is just being a regular Forero. 

Does that answer your question?

Saludos,
LN


----------



## lauranazario

badger said:
			
		

> I see no point in complaining because the complaint will be heard behind closed doors and I as an ordinary member will not be privy to what's said there.



I know you were replying to someone else when you said this... but I just wanted to point out that complaints shared behind the closed door of Forero-to-Forero PMs are not privvy to anyone either. So in that sence, we're on even grounds there.

Saludos,
LN


----------



## lauranazario

te gato said:
			
		

> lauranazario;
> I did not mean for this statement to be offensive in any way, shape, or form...I just stated a fact----- It has often been said,(written) by people, in numerous threads,  that  if you have a complaint, question..yadda, yadda.."to PM your favorite Mod". That was what I was trying to get across.....
> 
> te gato



Hi TeGato,
It seems we have run into a bit of miscommunication here! 

When I said I was not sure I did not understand your question because there were some "like/dislike" aspects intermingled in it, I was basically addressing the part of your post #25 that read:


			
				tegato said:
			
		

> Where do we go from there?? It is human nature not to "like" some people, even when we do not "really" know them... [...] What are your thoughts and Ideas????


I thought you were asking for thoughts and ideas as to how to proceed... and then you brought in the human nature of liking or disliking people. Frankly, that's where I got a bit "lost"... but went on to explain the ways people could contact Mods: via PM or by Report-a-Post.

So don't worry... I did not find your comments to be offensive in any way. You come across as being quite nice and respectful to everyone... and I thank you for that. Like they say in the 'hood... _we're cool_. 

Saludos,
LN


----------



## cuchuflete

beatrizg said:
			
		

> To a certain extent, Artrella is right. It often gets frustrating and confusing not knowing to what extent we can behave and communicate as human beings here (and not as 'word producing machines'  ).
> The line is very fine and sometimes I find it’s movable.
> 
> I don’t know what the solution is, if it is PMs or not, but a discussion on this subject is useful and necessary.



Hello Beatriz,

For the past few days, you and I and others, all acting as foreros (members) have been participating in a sometimes heated, sometimes calm, exchange of views about politics, economics, and related themes. 

The latitude given in the Culture forum is very wide. From the original topic, we have, collectively and happily, veered off into many other topics.
Given the location of the conversation, there was no need served, or benefit to be had, from prodding people to get back "on topic". It was a 
_tertulia_ style conversation, and it ranged over many ideas and themes.

As a member and as a moderator, it's a pleasure to be able to respect my fellow participants and not wear the moderator hat over the course of dozens of posts.

However, today I did intervene, when a post appeared that was so off topic 
as to require action.  I have not deleted it.  I left it in place as a clear example of what is *not* a useful contribution to a discussion of language or culture.  


gracias,
cuchu


----------



## beatrizg

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Hello Beatriz,
> 
> For the past few days, you and I and others, all acting as foreros (members) have been participating in a sometimes heated, sometimes calm, exchange of views about politics, economics, and related themes.
> 
> The latitude given in the Culture forum is very wide.  From the original topic, we have, collectively and happily, veered off into many other topics.
> Given the location of the conversation, there was no need served, or benefit to be had, from prodding people to get back "on topic".  It was a
> _tertulia_ style conversation, and it ranged over many ideas and themes.
> 
> As a member and as a moderator, it's a pleasure to be able to respect my fellow participants and not wear the moderator hat over the course of dozens of posts.
> 
> However, today I did intervene, when a post appeared that was so off topic
> as to require action.  I have not deleted it.  I left it in place as a clear example of what is *not* a useful contribution to a discussion of language or culture.
> 
> Please have a look.  This should be helpful to you in determining where a line has been crossed.
> 
> see post # 60 in http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=17853&page=3&pp=20
> 
> gracias,
> cuchu



Dear Cuchu, I prefer no to reply to the above. 
I have the feeling that whatever I say, the moderators will always be right. 
Asi que con todo respeto, me abstengo. 
As you know, I really appreciate your help and like you very much as a forero.


----------



## Benjy

beatriz,
i understand that sometimes it might be frustrating not having a hard and fast rule set but the thing is we would LOVE as mods to be able to draw upp a complete and exhaustive list of what does and what doesn't constitute chat, but that would be as impractical as it would be impossible. what do you want? an end to all chat? a sterile forum where we do nothing but translate? i don't, and im sure you don't either. do you want a forum where the vast majority of posts are about the weather, the latest film or the new car that mr X just bought? i don't particulary want that either. and so we try and take the middle ground. we ask people to think before they post.

i'm sorry if this is beating a dead horse...

ben


----------



## beatrizg

Benjy said:
			
		

> beatriz,
> i understand that sometimes it might be frustrating not having a hard and fast rule set but the thing is we would LOVE as mods to be able to draw upp a complete and exhaustive list of what does and what doesn't constitute chat, but that would be as impractical as it would be impossible. what do you want? an end to all chat? a sterile forum where we do nothing but translate? i don't, and im sure you don't either. do you want a forum where the vast majority of posts are about the weather, the latest film or the new car that mr X just bought? i don't particulary want that either. and so we try and take the middle ground. we ask people to think before they post.
> 
> i'm sorry if this is beating a dead horse...
> 
> ben


 
Thank you for your words. You're very kind.  
I know it is not easy to be a moderator, Benjy.


----------



## gaer

beatrizg said:
			
		

> Thank you for your words. You're very kind.
> I know it is not easy to be a moderator, Benjy.


 
Ditto, Benjy. There has been too much fighting lately, and it's kept me from participating. These forums give us an opportunity to learn so much. There just is not enough TIME to learn AND argue. 

Gaer


----------

