# No vs. any



## Marcio_Osorio

(1) We should leave no space between the dash and the letters on either side of the dash.

or

(2) We should not leave any space between...

Hello again! My ESL brain thinks sentence (1) = (2), but which one of these sentences would your native English-thinking brain rather write than say and vice versa?

Thank you.


----------



## leenico

> (1) We should leave no space between the dash and the letters on either side of the dash.
> 
> or
> 
> (2) We should not leave any space between...


No. 2 sounds more correct to me.


----------



## Bambino

Hello Marcio, I agree with leenico.  In addition, No. 1 sounds a bit profound like it belongs in a formal speech whether written or spoken.  No. 2 sounds like everyday clear English and would be used both written and spoken.

Bambino


----------



## te gato

Marcio_Osorio said:
			
		

> (1) We should leave no space between the dash and the letters on either side of the dash.
> 
> or
> 
> (2) We should not leave any space between...
> 
> Hello again! My ESL brain thinks sentence (1) = (2), but which one of these sentences would your native English-thinking brain rather write than say and vice versa?
> 
> Thank you.


Hello Marcisorio;
I would write 1.--more formal.
and I would say 2.
te gato


----------



## Nick

As other posters have confirmed, the sentences do mean the same thing.

I find them to be completely equal, though. I don't think one is more formal than the other.


----------



## Lakeview

Nick said:
			
		

> As other posters have confirmed, the sentences do mean the same thing.
> 
> I find them to be completely equal, though. I don't think one is more formal than the other.


 
To me, number 1 seems more emphatic than number 2.


----------



## mnzrob

I would say Nr. 2 is more grammatically correct, both written and spoken.


----------



## mirandolina

Definitely the second version.  The first is too emphatic.


----------



## gaer

mirandolina said:
			
		

> Definitely the second version. The first is too emphatic.


Both are correct, but the first sounds stiff.

Number two.


----------



## cuchuflete

Marcio_Osorio said:
			
		

> (1) We should leave no space between the dash and the letters on either side of the dash.
> 
> or
> 
> (2) We should not leave any space between...
> 
> Hello again! My ESL brain thinks sentence (1) = (2), but which one of these sentences would your native English-thinking brain rather write than say and vice versa?
> 
> Thank you.



We shouldn't leave spaces between the dash and the letters on either side of it.   [That's how my ordinary, average AE brain would do it.]

Of your examples, both are correct, and (2) is more idiomatic.

chau,
Cuchu


----------



## Panpan

They are both correct.
Use 1 if you want to emphasize 'no'
Use 2 if you want to emphasise 'space'
Just my opinion
Panpan


----------



## gaer

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> We shouldn't leave spaces between the dash and the letters on either side of it. [That's how my ordinary, average AE brain would do it.]
> 
> Of your examples, both are correct, and (2) is more idiomatic.
> 
> chau,
> Cuchu


It seems as though we all agree except for Nick. 

Gaer


----------



## jacinta

I am putting on my teacher hat right now.  I find myself saying a lot:

There should be no talking right now.

There should be no ph for the f sound(in Spanish).

It's just the way I talk, I guess.  I could just as easily say,"There shouldn't be any mistakes" as I could "there should be no mistakes".  I'm not sure which sounds better to me because it is my teacher speak, I guess.  Interesting.  I've never thought about it before.  Does it sound more emphatic?  I would talk like this when I mean business so maybe so...

There you go.  I'm not sure which side of the fence I'm on.


----------



## garryknight

I agree with the others about the relative formality of example 1 and the relative informality of example 2 - but I _always_ leave a space either side of the dash...  

Or were your examples referring to a hyphen?


----------



## Nick

jacinta said:
			
		

> It's just the way I talk, I guess. I could just as easily say,"There shouldn't be any mistakes" as I could "there should be no mistakes".


Woo, someone else feels the same way!


----------



## te gato

gaer said:
			
		

> Both are correct, but the first sounds stiff.
> 
> Number two.


Hello gaer;
Yes the first one does sound stiff...But you must remember that the written "English" is a lot different than the spoken "English"..The question was 'which was better for written english and which was for spoken english'.
I guess my problem stems from the fact of being 'trained' as a legal assistant..you do not shut off the written English mind set, so when looking at certain sentences..to me they look odd...Yes..the 'spoken English' is vastly different....and I am not saying that is bad..in fact it is a good thing...If we all had to speak 'written English' LORDY!!
I guess the thought that I am trying to get across is that...one must keep in concideration...the differences between the two..written as opposed to spoken...
Here is a section of an article that I found on one of the web sites--

There are many differences between spoken and written English. In fact, speaking as we write may be considered stuffy, whereas writing as we speak may be considered uneducated. Spoken English and written English should be considered separately. 


If I were to explain everything to people in the written mind set..do you think their perception of what was said would be the same?
Just a thought .....
te gato


----------



## lsp

Panpan said:
			
		

> They are both correct.
> Use 1 if you want to emphasize 'no'
> Use 2 if you want to emphasise 'space'
> Just my opinion
> Panpan


My opinion, too.


----------



## lsp

te gato said:
			
		

> Here is a section of an article that I found on one of the web sites--
> 
> There are many differences between spoken and written English. In fact, speaking as we write may be considered stuffy, whereas writing as we speak may be considered uneducated. Spoken English and written English should be considered separately.


Would be better if you gave us the source, I think. One could find supporting quotes for anything on the WWW, so the credibility attached to a quote is dependent on the publisher.


----------



## gaer

te gato said:
			
		

> Hello gaer;
> Yes the first one does sound stiff...But you must remember that the written "English" is a lot different than the spoken "English"..The question was 'which was better for written english and which was for spoken english'.
> I guess my problem stems from the fact of being 'trained' as a legal assistant..you do not shut off the written English mind set, so when looking at certain sentences..to me they look odd...Yes..the 'spoken English' is vastly different....and I am not saying that is bad..in fact it is a good thing...If we all had to speak 'written English' LORDY!!
> I guess the thought that I am trying to get across is that...one must keep in concideration...the differences between the two..written as opposed to spoken...
> Here is a section of an article that I found on one of the web sites--
> 
> There are many differences between spoken and written English. In fact, speaking as we write may be considered stuffy, whereas writing as we speak may be considered uneducated. Spoken English and written English should be considered separately.
> 
> 
> If I were to explain everything to people in the written mind set..do you think their perception of what was said would be the same?
> Just a thought .....
> te gato


Just a thought? Long thought! But I'll admit something, and it's embarrassing. I totally MISSED this:



> Marcio_Osorio said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (
> (1) We should leave no space between the dash and the letters on either side of the dash.
> or
> (2) We should not leave any space between...
> 
> Hello again! My ESL brain thinks sentence (1) = (2), but which one of these sentences would your native English-thinking brain *rather write than say and vice versa*?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I did not SEE the red part. I "read the red" part, but it did not register. And I totally agree with you that writing as we speak and speaking as we write may not always be appropriate.
> 
> Now, I still prefer 2 to 1, because I don't like the sound of 1, not because 1 is more formal sounding but because there is something about it that just doesn't feel right to me.
> 
> Sentence 2 does sound a bit less formal. I guess the point is that IF I needed to make that point in a formal way, I would use a different style:
> 
> Use of the dash:
> 
> a) If the long dash (—) is used, or if two hyphens (--) are used in its place, then no space should precede or follow it.
> 
> b) When one hyphen (-) is used in place of the long dash (—), then a space must precede and follow it.
> 
> For example:
> 
> _a1) My work day—interrupted several times by irritating interruptions—was extremely tedious._
> 
> _a2) My work day--interrupted several times by irritating interruptions--was extremely tedious._
> 
> _b) My work day - interrupted several times by irritating interruptions - was extremely tedious._
> 
> By the way, this could be a thread about use of the dash.
> 
> Gaer
Click to expand...


----------



## te gato

lsp said:
			
		

> Would be better if you gave us the source, I think. One could find supporting quotes for anything on the WWW, so the credibility attached to a quote is dependent on the publisher.


Lsp;
here is the link
http://www.pbs.org/speak/education/curriculum/college/perspectives/

te gato


----------



## te gato

gaer said:
			
		

> Just a thought? Long thought! But I'll admit something, and it's embarrassing. I totally MISSED this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I did not SEE the red part. I "read the red" part, but it did not register. And I totally agree with you that writing as we speak and speaking as we write may not always be appropriate.
> 
> Now, I still prefer 2 to 1, because I don't like the sound of 1, not because 1 is more formal sounding but because there is something about it that just doesn't feel right to me.
> 
> Sentence 2 does sound a bit less formal. I guess the point is that IF I needed to make that point in a formal way, I would use a different style:
> 
> Use of the dash:
> 
> a) If the long dash (—) is used, or if two hyphens (--) are used in its place, then no space should precede or follow it.
> 
> b) When one hyphen (-) is used in place of the long dash (—), then a space must precede and follow it.
> 
> For example:
> 
> _a1) My work day—interrupted several times by irritating interruptions—was extremely tedious._
> 
> _a2) My work day--interrupted several times by irritating interruptions--was extremely tedious._
> 
> _b) My work day - interrupted several times by irritating interruptions - was extremely tedious._
> 
> By the way, this could be a thread about use of the dash.
> 
> Gaer[/font]
> 
> 
> 
> Gaer;
> 
> Yes they sound different..the first sentence would be used solely  for the purpose of writing only...the second sentence would be for speaking..
> 
> It is very hard to look at a sentence used for "written" English because..in my opinion..we are so used to the "spoken" English...and therefore we perceive it as incorrect ....when in fact it is not...
> 
> I am also not disputing your idea that, if needed to be written, the sentence might be reworked...I was replying to the sentences at hand...
> 
> Yes it was a long thought...Sometimes I even amaze myself..
> 
> te gato
Click to expand...


----------



## sperdomo

Hi guys,

Want a statistic? 

not + any negation is more more common in speaking. 
no negation is more common in writing. 

not negation -- I don't have any milk
no negation -- I have no milk

Someone named Tottie (1991) did a study of an English Corpus (a huge collection of about 10O million english words in authentic speech and writing settings) and found that the proportion of not and no negation were almost exactly reversed in speech and writing. In speech there was 66% not negation and 34% no negation. I writing, there was 37% not negation and 63% no-negation. It is just the opposite! According to my textbook, this might be because no-negation predates not-negation (by a few hundred years) and thus the older form is preserved in writing. 

Both forms are correct, by the way. 

Be well, 
Susan


----------



## Nsonia

It's interesting to know that "no" is more communly used in written than in spoken english  . I thought it was exactly the opposite


----------



## Lems

Nsonia said:
			
		

> It's interesting to know that "no" is more communly used in written than in spoken english  . I thought it was exactly the opposite


I share the same impression, Nsonia...  

Lems
___________________________________________
In the future, computers won’t weight over 1.5 ton.
_Popular Mechanics, foreseeing the evolution of the technology, 1949._


----------



## sperdomo

Really? You think that the sentence: *I have no milk* would be more common than *I don't have any milk *in spoken English? That is odd. I hear *I don't have any* all of the time. 

Are you just thinkng of the word *not* vs the word *no* in general*?* The statistics I mentioned didn't look at all the uses of no and not, just the contrast of *no* vs. *not any.*   People of course still say* no* a lot.


----------



## Artrella

Hi!
I think that we use "no" when we want to emphasise the negative idea.

Eg,

_Sorry, I can't talk to you now.  I've got* no * time. _ >>> more emphatic than_ I have*n't* got *any* time_

IMHO,


----------



## te gato

Artrella said:
			
		

> Hi!
> I think that we use "no" when we want to emphasise the negative idea.
> 
> Eg,
> 
> _Sorry, I can't talk to you now. I've got* no *time. _>>> more emphatic than_ I have*n't* got *any* time_
> 
> IMHO,


Hi Art;
Yes I agree with you..No is a lot harsher, and gets the point across more...
"Mom can I have that toy?" ......."NO"

It is also used more because it is one word....how many of us do not like one word answers? 
"Did you have a good day today?"......"NO!"

It also puts an end to a conversation very quickly....
"Don't you like me anymore?"......."NO"......end of discussion...how can someone argue with that...the person is usually left there thinking of something to say...yadda, yadda.......

te gato


----------



## CBFelix

English is one of the richest languages if not the richest. This kind of different writing or telling is there to create variety, add to language more beauty . There is absolutely no difference between them. Neither officially nor  spoken way. Look at the examples that taken from one of the official report of EU. 

_“However, the Human Rights Presidency has not yet succeeded in having a nationwide
impact; some Boards have received no applications and some have never convened
meetings.”

“No new anti-dumping or other trade defence measures were taken in 2003, nor
investigations initiated.”

“New legislation should not move away from the acquis.”

“There are no available estimates of the ethnically Arab population.”

“It is stated that school text books should not discriminate on the basis of race,
religion, gender, language, ethnicity, philosophical belief, or religion.”

“As part of the constitutional amendments, the NSC was made an advisory body with no executive powers and with a majority of civilians.”_

You can rewrite these sentences by using no, not, any, without etc. without changing its meaning or its strength. It is just richness of the language itself. 

For me, English is one of the most beautiful languages because of that.


----------



## gaer

te gato said:
			
		

> gaer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just a thought? Long thought! But I'll admit something, and it's embarrassing. I totally MISSED this:
> 
> 
> Gaer;
> 
> Yes they sound different..the first sentence would be used solely for the purpose of writing only...the second sentence would be for speaking..
> 
> It is very hard to look at a sentence used for "written" English because..in my opinion..we are so used to the "spoken" English...and therefore we perceive it as incorrect ....when in fact it is not...
> 
> I am also not disputing your idea that, if needed to be written, the sentence might be reworked...I was replying to the sentences at hand...
> 
> Yes it was a long thought...Sometimes I even amaze myself..
> 
> te gato
> 
> 
> 
> One thought: it's an oversimplification to divide English into two groups: formal and informal. There are so many levels of formality, or lack of it.
> 
> In general I write almost exactly the same way as I talk except that in real life I tend to use much more "colorful language".
> 
> I think how we express ourselves in writing may have a lot to do with what we do for a living. I've never been in a position to have to write business letters, for instance. I don't have to write anything formal. To me there is a comfortable middle-ground. I think we can write in a way that is not too formal, and speak in a way that is not too informal. I probably write a bit more formally here simply because I know that many people are trying to learn English, and I don't "wanna" set a bad example.
> 
> Gaer
Click to expand...


----------



## gaer

sperdomo said:
			
		

> Hi guys,
> 
> Want a statistic?
> 
> not + any negation is more more common in speaking.
> no negation is more common in writing.
> 
> not negation -- I don't have any milk
> no negation -- I have no milk
> 
> Someone named Tottie (1991) did a study of an English Corpus (a huge collection of about 10O million english words in authentic speech and writing settings) and found that the proportion of not and no negation were almost exactly reversed in speech and writing. In speech there was 66% not negation and 34% no negation. I writing, there was 37% not negation and 63% no-negation. It is just the opposite! According to my textbook, this might be because no-negation predates not-negation (by a few hundred years) and thus the older form is preserved in writing.
> 
> Both forms are correct, by the way.
> 
> Be well,
> Susan


Susan, could you give a couple examples in which these "the style of negatino" is reversed?

Also, is it possible that people who write may choose a way that is quicker, meaning faster, involving less typing? 

Gaer


----------



## gaer

sperdomo said:
			
		

> Really? You think that the sentence: *I have no milk* would be more common than *I don't have any milk *in spoken English? That is odd. I hear *I don't have any* all of the time.
> 
> Are you just thinkng of the word *not* vs the word *no* in general*?* The statistics I mentioned didn't look at all the uses of no and not, just the contrast of *no* vs. *not any.* People of course still say* no* a lot.


I would not WRITE: I have no milk. To me it does not sound formal. It sounds either stiff or literary.

I think the first way is very common in books, in narration. I also think there are many more factors than the ones we've discussed.

I agree with Art that many times using "no" emphasizes a point.

1) I don't have a connection to the Intenet. That's strange! (I'm stating a fact, and I expect the problem to be resolved in a minute or so.)

2) D--- it! I have NO connection to the Intenet—AGAIN! (I'm angry and would like to scream at someone)

Gaer


----------



## sperdomo

Hi gaer

One can only speculate about why one form appears more in writing than in speaking, but it is interesting, isn't it? I think it confirms what forum members here notice all of the time: How lanuage is really used in everyday life is not adequately described in grammar books and lots of times native speakers have no idea why they use one form over another (nor do grammarians). 

I am not sure what you wanted when you asked for examples of the style of negation in reverse. There is nothing to reverse...or maybe I should say that there isn't anything to reverse. 
S.


----------



## gaer

sperdomo said:
			
		

> Hi gaer
> 
> One can only speculate about why one form appears more in writing than in speaking, but it is interesting, isn't it? I think it confirms what forum members here notice all of the time: How lanuage is really used in everyday life is not adequately described in grammar books and lots of times native speakers have no idea why they use one form over another (nor do grammarians).
> 
> I am not sure what you wanted when you asked for examples of the style of negation in reverse. There is nothing to reverse...or maybe I should say that there isn't anything to reverse.
> S.


I was talking about sentences using "no" and "don't, such as:

I have no time.
I don't have any time.

I disagreed with the point you were making, but I was not feeling very sure about my opinion. Then I caught myself using "no" in exactly the way you were talking about, in writing, and it was not even a formal situation. So now I don't disagree at all. 

The fact is that I don't think we quite know what we say and write. It's too automatic, and thinking about it changes it, much like pronunciation. 

One thing is for sure: I do NOT trust most grammar books!!! 

Gaer


----------



## sperdomo

I agree we don't really know how we are really using language most of the time. I was talking to my friend the other day about the fact that I sometimes pronounce *for* as *fer* (rhymes with her)... for example.. I'm waiting fer the doctor. She laughed about how funny I am and insisted she NEVER said it that way. Of course, over the next half hour, I heard her say fer about three times!


----------



## lsp

te gato said:
			
		

> Lsp;
> here is the link
> http://www.pbs.org/speak/education/curriculum/college/perspectives/
> 
> te gato


Thanks, te gato, it's an interesting link.  Lsp


----------



## gaer

sperdomo said:
			
		

> I agree we don't really know how we are really using language most of the time. I was talking to my friend the other day about the fact that I sometimes pronounce *for* as *fer* (rhymes with her)... for example.. I'm waiting fer the doctor. She laughed about how funny I am and insisted she NEVER said it that way. Of course, over the next half hour, I heard her say fer about three times!


Absolutely! I say "warshhing machine", but I say "wash". I have lived in South Florida since the age of 5, but I picked up "warsh" from one of my relatives who grew up in New York stated. 

There's only one way to know for sure how you talk. You have to get recorded when you don't know it's happening and then listen. It's quite a shock. 

Gaer


----------



## te gato

lsp said:
			
		

> Thanks, te gato, it's an interesting link.  Lsp


Hi Isp;
You are welcome...
I promise I will TRY  to remember to put the links in....next time ..maybe..

te gato


----------



## Marcio_Osorio

Thank you all again.


----------



## te gato

Marcio_Osorio said:
			
		

> Thank you all again.


 Hi Marcisorio;
Not to sure if we helped or not..
but you are Welcome!!!
te gato


----------



## Marcio_Osorio

te gato said:
			
		

> Hi Marcisorio;
> Not to sure if we helped or not..
> but you are Welcome!!!
> te gato


Thank you, te gato! Actually everybody who tried to did. I came away from there with the feeling you could use "any" or not any "any" at all. As well as not, I hadn't  thought of the structure "... not leave spaces..." but cuchu (I can't remember or see his full nickname here) did. So many thanks, so many think!


----------



## Sergiotcj

I understand "NO" is used most frequently after "there is" and "have got". So, is there a difference in emphasis or register (formal-informal) between sentences such as the following ones?
They haven't got any children - They've got no children.
There isn't any sugar in my coffee - There's no sugar in my coffee.


----------

