# ば vs. たら



## Naosh

Hi,
I have a question about using this two forms doing hypothesis phrases.

スイッチを押せば、　電気が点きます。
スイッチを押したら、　電気が点きます。

I think that using the first phrase it seems an explanation.
And the second has more intention.

It's like using verb + ら = when
verb + ば/ければ = if 

家へ帰ったら、晩ご飯を食べます。when I'll come home I'll have dinner. 
家へ帰れば、晩ご飯を食べます。 if I come home I have diner.( if he don't come home he don't eat xD).

But it isn't so easy. For example in this other phrases I can't use (if/when).

もしオレンジジュースがなければ、コーラを持って来てください。in this "if" it's ok.
もしオレンジジュースがなかったら、コーラを持って来てください。in this "when" isn't correct. 

These two examples are ok but the last example wasn't well. I would like to know when I have to use each type more clearly.
Thanks for reading and ごめんあさい for my low level.

Naosh.


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## Wishfull

Naosh said:


> スイッチを押せば、　電気が点きます。
> スイッチを押したら、　電気が点きます。
> I think these two has completely the same meaning.
> They are if....., not when.....
> 
> 家へ帰ったら、晩ご飯を食べます。*If *I'll come home I'll have dinner.
> 家へ帰れば、晩ご飯を食べます。 if I come home I have diner.( if he don't come home he don't eat xD).
> 
> But it isn't so easy. For example in this other phrases I can't use (if/when).
> 
> もしオレンジジュースがなければ、コーラを持って来てください。in this "if" it's ok.
> もしオレンジジュースがなかったら、コーラを持って来てください。in this "when" isn't correct.  I think both "if".
> 
> These two examples are ok but the last example wasn't well. I would like to know when I have to use each type more clearly.
> I think these two has the same meaning, and depend on each individual's preference.
> 
> Thanks for reading and ごめん*な*さい for my low level.
> 
> Naosh.


Hello.
I think two expression has the same meaning. According to your explanation, their meaning is basically "if...".

Sometimes it might have the meaning of "when..." as you mentioned.
But I think it is not the matter of Japanese but I would say it's the matter of English. In English, "when.." and "if..." are sometimes used as the same meaning, arn't they?

If you want to say "when...."
スイッチを押していただいた時に、電気がつくことになります。
家に帰ってから、晩御飯をたべます。

もしオレンジジュースがなければ、.....　is impossible to say.
If you don't have orange juice, I will have coke.
When you don't have orange juice, I will have coke.
In this context, If and When have the same meaning, aren't they?


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## Flaminius

Hello,

It's a pity that I haven't realise till now, but there is a wonderful discussion about this topic.  Click here.

In my opinion posts by *Captain Haddock* and *divisortheory* (#*2* and #*4*) are excellent explanations.  I'll quote the gist of the latter (with modifications in blue):


> If I give her a flower, she will love me. [_tara-_ish]
> If I were to give her a flower, she would love me. [_ba-_ish]


With this nifty tool under your belt, your last pair of sentences can be analyzed as follows:

A. もしオレンジジュースがなければ、コーラを持って来てください。
B. もしオレンジジュースがなかったら、コーラを持って来てください。

Sentence A sounds as if coming from someone who little anticipates that orange juice may be unavailable.  Sentence B has a nuance that the speaker expects the listener would take some time to find out whether the juice is available or not.


An additional thought:
Lower-probability hypothesis with _-ba_ can express deference to the listener; perhaps a phenomenon on a par with English "Would you like ....?" and other expressions.


Conclusion (however tentative and nebulous ):
There is no clear-cut answer to the general question when to use _-ba_ and when to use _-tara_.  I think any conditional sentence can be cast in either.  The difference lies in the attitude of the narrator with which she views the relationship between the two statements.


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## Starfrown

I've read another interesting discussion on this distinction here.

My own interest in this was sparked when I heard a character say どうしたら、どうすればいい on a Japanese television show.


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## Naosh

I hadn't saw these posts before I wrote the first post. Now I already know how to use these constructions more clearly. ありがとう 皆さん


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## languageguru

I am utterly confused about which conditional form to use when, if seems the more I read the more confused I become.  I don't understand the difference in meaning between ~たら and ~ば, or if there are certain situations you have to use one or if they are interchangeable.

I have 2 examples:

1. (a) タクシーに忘れ物をしたんですが、どう　すれば　いいですか。
 (b) タクシーに忘れ物をしたんですが、どう　したら　いいですか。

What is the difference in meaning between these two sentences? Is it possible to use (a) or with this sentence structure (どう......いいですか) can you only say (b)?

2.  (a) 来週へ出張しますから、広島へ　行けば、友達に合いたいです。
(b) 来週へ出張しますから、広島へ　行ったら、友達に合いたいです。

Are both of these sentences possible or can you only say it one way?  What is the difference in meaning for the two sentences?

Thanks.


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## uchi.m

I cannot tell you the reason why, but in (1) both ~ba and ~tara can be used interchangeably while in (2) only (b) is possible.

My guess is that with ~ba structures, the first clause has to be hypothetical or a somewhat unrealistic condition, or a condition of low probability.


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## languageguru

Thanks.  So then would it be fair to say that there's a hierarchy of sorts regarding the level of truth?

For example, ~ば is the most hypothetical, ~たら is more realistic and then ~と is the most truthful of the three.


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## uchi.m

That's correct.


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## languageguru

Oh... Thanks heaps, I think I understand it all a bit better now.


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## languageguru

I've come across another sentence now where I'm not sure if ば or たら is best, or maybe you could use both.

時間が　*なければ / なかったら*　タクシーで行きます。

I think you can only use たら here because you need to not have time for you to get a taxi.  Is this right?


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## uchi.m

If your lacking of time is remotely possible, then I'd use ~ba. In case it's more probable, I'd use ~tara.


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## languageguru

Oh... so then it's more important to express how probable the situation is rather than the order of events?


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## uchi.m

languageguru said:


> Oh... so then it's more important to express how probable the situation is rather than the order of events?


The order of events is the same whenever you pick ~tara or ~ba. The only personal difference, I think, is the probability of you not having time.


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