# You had better have stayed at home



## cheshire

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=344950

*(1)You had better have stayed at home.*

*(2)You'd have been better off staying at home.*​How do you say these two sentences in German? 
My try:
(1) Du sollste ins Haus bleiben haben.
(2) ??


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## Fez

For the first (1), I'd say: Es wäre besser, wenn du zu Hause geblieben wärest.

For the second (2): Es wäre besser (fuer dich) gewesen, wenn du zu Hause geblieben wärest...

The two sentences are quite similar so let's maybe wait and see what a native would say


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## Kajjo

(1) Du wärest besser zuhause geblieben.
(2) Es wäre besser für dich gewesen, wenn Du zuhause geblieben wärest.

Kajjo


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## cheshire

Vielen Dank, Kajo und Fez! 





> (2): Es *wäre* besser (fuer dich) gewesen, wenn du zu Hause geblieben *wärest*...


I don't think the following form is acceptable in English grammar, but it seems that German grammar it's OK. Ich finde es ziemlich interessant! I have a question: can we replace "*wärest*"with "hättest" there?

(3) It *would* have been better if you *would* have...p.p.​


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## Kajjo

No, you cannot replace _wärest_ with _hättest_. Which auxiliary verb (sein/haben) you have to use depends on the main verb of the sentence.

Es _hätte_ besser für dich _ausgesehen_, wenn...
Es _wäre_ besser für dich _gewesen_, wenn...

Kajjo


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## Henryk

> (1) Du wärest besser zu Hause geblieben.
> (2) Es wäre besser für dich gewesen, wenn Du zu Hause geblieben wärest.


Der erste Satz ist zwar ohne Frage richtig übersetzt, sagen würde man es aber halt nicht (zumindest habe ich es nie gehört). Eher: "Wärst du mal lieber zu Hause geblieben!"


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## cheshire

Vielen grossen Dank!
I've read that "had better" is very "strong" phrase, like an order from Mother to her child.
Can one reflect that feelings into the translation?


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## gaer

cheshire said:


> http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=344950
> 
> *(1)You had better have stayed at home.*​*(2)You'd have been better off staying at home.*​How do you say these two sentences in German?


But there is a problem.

What do you wish to say?

"You [had] better stay [at] home".  

This is very common and "had" is often dropped in informal AE speech. It's not what you want to say though.

This is very unusual, not incorrect, but almost archaic:

"You had better have stayed at home."  

Not wrong, but odd in modern English. I would suggest:

"You should have stayed at home."

To our natives. Is this incorrect?

"Du hättest [lieber] zu Hause bleiben sollen."

Gaer


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## Fez

Yes I had the same problem translating "You had better have stayed at home". It's a stern sort of warning, e.g. from a mother to a child she left home on a Saturday night. Don't know about AE, but it's a fairly common construction in British English, e.g. (spoken): "You('d) better have done your homework" or "You('d) better have brought your umbrella". I'm not sure the translations given by the native Germans are spot on because it's a difficult construction in both languages. Maybe some affirmation from HenryK or Kajjo? Does: "Wärst du mal lieber zu Hause geblieben!" or "Du wärest besser zuhause geblieben" convey that same stern, "there'll-be-consequences-if-not" meaning?


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## gaer

Fez said:


> Yes I had the same problem translating "You had better have stayed at home". It's a stern sort of warning, e.g. from a mother to a child she left home on a Saturday night. Don't know about AE, but it's a fairly common construction in British English, e.g. (spoken): "You('d) better have done your homework" or "You('d) better have brought your umbrella".


Ah, yes. That is a bit different, don't you think?

"You('d) better have done your homework, or you are in big trouble!"

Meaning: If you have not done your homework, expect to be punished/grounded/disciplined.

These are different:

You had better have [should have] a look at your family.

And this:

"In that case, Sir George, you had better have [should have] stayed at home. In the way of climate, a man seldom betters himself by leaving old England."—James Fenimore Cooper.




> I'm not sure the translations given by the native Germans are spot on because it's a difficult construction in both languages. Maybe some affirmation from HenryK or Kajjo? Does: "Wärst du mal lieber zu Hause geblieben!" or "Du wärest besser zuhause geblieben" convey that same stern, "there'll-be-consequences-if-not" meaning?


I think that would require a very different translation.

As always, context is everything. 

Gaer


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## Fez

Indeed, they're not the same. I didn't realise you'd thought of the same sentence in a slightly different meaning (interesting!). But now we're on the same page, we'll agree the meaning we're trying to find is the meaning for "you had better have stayed at home" in the sense of "expect to be punished/grounded/disciplined"...Let's hope someone can help us.


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## Ralf

gaer said:
			
		

> ...
> To our natives. Is this incorrect?
> 
> "Du hättest [lieber] zu Hause bleiben sollen."


Kurze Antwort: Ja, natürlich ist das richtig. Anstelle von "lieber" ist mitunter auch "besser" zu hören. Im Sprachgebrauch sehe ich keinen Unterschied zu Henryks Vorschlag.





			
				gaer said:
			
		

> ...
> "You('d) better have done your homework, or you are in big trouble!"


Sagt man das tatsächlich so? Du hättest lieber Deine Hausaufgaben erledigen sollen, oder Du bekommst (mächtig) Ärger.  Irgendwie passen die Zeitformen nicht so recht zusammen ... oder ist das im Englischen hier vernachlässigbar.

Vorschlag: Du solltest lieber Deine Hausaufgaben erledigen, wenn Du keinen Ärger willst.

oder: 

Ralf


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## cyanista

Ralf said:


> Sagt man das tatsächlich so*? Du hättest lieber Deine Hausaufgaben erledigen sollen, oder Du bekommst (mächtig) Ärger.*  Irgendwie passen die Zeitformen nicht so recht zusammen ... oder ist das im Englischen hier vernachlässigbar.




"You had better", gewöhnlich verkürzt als "you'd better", bedeutet nicht, dass etwas in der Vergangenheit passiert ist, es ist ein modaler Ausdruck, der in Verbindung mit dem Infinitiv einen Rat, eine Empfehlung oder Warnung ausdrückt. Aber die ungewöhnliche Kombination mit dem Infinitiv Perfekt (have stayed), soll eine Warnung* über die Handlung ausdrücken, die bereits stattgefunden hat. Zum Beispiel: "You'd better have stayed at home on Saturday evening!" Es hat einen bedrohlichen, mahnenden Unterton und ich würde es folgendermaßen übersetzen: "Wehe du bist Samstag Abend nicht zu Hause geblieben". Oder, um Klarheit zu verschaffen: "Wehe ich erfahre, du bist Samstag Abend nicht zu Hause geblieben". Zugegeben, die Sätze klingen etwas komisch, aber der englische Satz doch auch.

*Manchmal Empfehlung, wie in gaer's Beispiel.


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## gaer

cyanista said:


> "You had better", gewöhnlich verkürzt als "you'd better", bedeutet nicht, dass etwas in der Vergangenheit passiert ist, es ist ein modaler Ausdruck, der in Verbindung mit dem Infinitiv einen Rat, eine Empfehlung oder Warnung ausdrückt.


Let's make clear by context what we are talking about:

You'd better get some sleep now or you'll have trouble getting up for work tomorrow.

This is now. I'm saying: It would be better if you go to sleep now (or almost immediately).


> Aber die ungewöhnliche Kombination mit dem Infinitiv Perfekt (have stayed), soll eine Warnung* über die Handlung ausdrücken, die bereits stattgefunden hat. Zum Beispiel: "You'd better have stayed at home on Saturday evening!" Es hat einen bedrohlichen, mahnenden Unterton […]


Exactly, but that same threatening tone exists in present too:

You['d] better not pout, I'm tellin' you why,
Santa Claus is comin' to town.

The threat is there. Don't pout or you're not going to get any presents from Santa. 

The addition of the extra "have" throws it into past tense.

And please don't overlook the example I showed:

"In that case, Sir George, you had better have [should have] stayed at home. In the way of climate, a man seldom betters himself by leaving old England."—James Fenimore Cooper.

This is no warning. It simply says that Sir George would have been wiser to have stayed home.


> und ich würde es folgendermaßen übersetzen: "Wehe du bist Samstag Abend nicht zu Hause geblieben". Oder, um Klarheit zu verschaffen: "Wehe ich erfahre, du bist Samstag Abend nicht zu Hause geblieben".


Yes, very good, at least for the meaning: There will be hell to pay if I find out that you have not stayed (did not stay) at home Saturday night.

It's really quite tricky, isn't it?

You are also right, I think, if you are assuming that in past tense form this structure is used much more commonly in the way you just suggested.

Good analysis!

Gaer


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## gaer

Ralf said:


> Originally Posted by *gaer*
> ...
> "You('d) better have done your homework, or you are in big trouble!"
> ====
> Sagt man das tatsächlich so? Du hättest lieber Deine Hausaufgaben erledigen sollen, oder Du bekommst (mächtig) Ärger.  Irgendwie passen die Zeitformen nicht so recht zusammen ... oder ist das im Englischen hier vernachlässigbar.


To be honest, Ralf, although it is correct, I don't know why, and it's not a structure I use. I would say:

"You('d) better have your homework done when I get back, or you are in big trouble!"

"You('d) better start practicing more, because my job is not to be your Personal Piano Trainer."

I wish Elroy would reappear to give us some grammar help, because I'm stumped about this:

"You had have + verb" 

"You had better have + verb"  

Why? 

I wonder if this has ever been discussed in the English forum. <very confused about the grammar>

Vorschlag: Du solltest lieber Deine Hausaufgaben erledigen, wenn Du keinen Ärger willst.

The grammar is different, but I truly believe it is one of many translations that get the idea across. The idea is that in the future some action will be taken or you will take action IF something has not already been COMPLETED.

Example:

1) If you have not completed your homwork when I get home, you will be in big trouble.

2) You had better have completed your homework when I get home, or you will be in big trouble.

The meaning is the same. I would only use number one.

But I would use only number one for translation into German.

What do you think?

Gaer


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## elroy

gaer said:


> I wish Elroy would reappear to give us some grammar help, because I'm stumped about this:
> 
> "You had have + verb"
> 
> "You had better have + verb"
> 
> Why?


 Because "had better" (or, informally, just "better") functions as an auxiliary.

Regarding the original sentence, I agree that "you had better have stayed at home" sounds unusual, but "you better have stayed at home" (without the "had") sounds very natural to me.

I speak American English.


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## gaer

elroy said:


> Because "had better" (or, informally, just "better") functions as an auxiliary.
> 
> Regarding the original sentence, I agree that "you had better have stayed at home" sounds unusual, but "you better have stayed at home" (without the "had") sounds very natural to me.
> 
> I speak American English.


 
If I chose to leave out a verb, I'd leave out have:

You['d] better stay home. Regardless of which construction you pick, I think the meaning is the same: you are warning someone not to do something unless he is prepared to face consequences.

That link is a help, but I still have problems with this:

"You('d) better have stayed home on Saturday night or you will be in big trouble! when I get home the next day."

(A father leaves town on Monday. He tells his son to stay home, not to leave the house five days later, on Saturday. He is flying home the next day.)

There "ought to" or "must" does not work.

Here "You('d) better have stayed home" would have to be changed to "You must stay home", and that is normally expressed as "You'd better stay home".

I think we are dealing with an extremely odd construction. I now have some questions about its being correct, although I have seen it and understand it.

VERY confusing. 

Gaer


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## Ralf

Hm, it's not the "had better" part that's tricky. I'm sure this is exactly the way I have learnt and used it myself without thinking. However, I managed to confuse myself trying to solve the "clash" of tenses with a literal translation to German:

You('d) better have done your homework, or you are in big trouble!

The first part of the sentence is in the present perfect--at least my grammatical understandig is that it refers to an activity that started in the past--while the direct consequence in the scond part is in the present. Perhaps it would sound a bit more logical to mark a point in time:

You'd better have done your homework, or you are/ will be in big trouble when I come home again. = You should have done your homework by the time I come home, otherwise you will be in serious trouble. Would that make any difference to the original sentence?

According to Elroy's link this would also be possible:

You'd better do your homework, or you are in big trouble. ... Or do I miss something here?

Ralf


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## gaer

Ralf said:


> Hm, it's not the "had better" part that's tricky. I'm sure this is exactly the way I have learnt and used it myself without thinking. However, I managed to confuse myself trying to solve the "clash" of tenses with a literal translation to German:


First of all, I don't think you are confusing yourself. I think we are dealing with a structure that is unique (or nearly so) that "is what it is". I don't understand it myself. I know what it means. That's the problem.


> You('d) better have done your homework, or you are in big trouble!
> 
> The first part of the sentence is in the present perfect--at least my grammatical understandig is that it refers to an activity that started in the past--


Stop there for a moment. Consider this:

You('d) better have done your homework _when before I get home_, or you are will be in big trouble!

The use of "are" is idiomatic. This is all talking about the future, and it is crazy.

This assumes that at some time in the future you will start your homework, you will work on it, and then you will finish it. You will do all of this BEFORE something else happens, before I get home to check if it has been done. If you have not done it, I am going to do something to discipline or punish you.

"You had better" in this case means: "Make sure that you…"

SO

Make sure that you have done your homework _before  I get home_, or you will be in big trouble!

Isn't this horrible?

The problem is that there are many ways to express the same idea using completely different verb structures:

"You'd better be sure to have your homework done before (when) I get home, or you're gonna (will be)be in deep s*** (serious trouble)."

"When" is also idiomatic and not really right. Strictly speaking, the homework must be completed BEFORE I get home.

Totally different, but the meaning is the same.


> while the direct consequence in the scond part is in the present.


In this case it is not. The consequence WILL be in the future IF something is not done.

Please remember that my other example looks the same but is totally different:

"In that case, Sir George, you had better have [should have] stayed at home. In the way of climate, a man seldom betters himself by leaving old England."—James Fenimore Cooper.

Now it's in the past. It would have been better if you had stayed at home. Leaving home was a bad idea. NOW "you had better" means "ought to", which Elroy's link explains.


> Perhaps it would sound a bit more logical to mark a point in time:
> 
> You'd better have done your homework, or you are/ will be in big trouble when I come home again. = You should have done your homework by the time I come home, otherwise you will be in serious trouble. Would that make any difference to the original sentence?


Yes. "You should have" is in the past. That's wrong.

You should have Be sure/make sure that you have done your homework by the time I come home, otherwise you will be in serious trouble.


> According to Elroy's link this would also be possible:
> 
> You'd better do your homework, or you are in big trouble. ... Or do I miss am I missing something here?


No. You are correct, and this is 100% right idiomatically in informal conversation, but this is closer to the structure, same meaning:

Make sure that you have done your homework, or you will be in big trouble. 

What a nightmare! You know how it goes. We understand exactly what something means in our own language without having any idea that there is a problem.

Just remember, "es sind…" 

What would I say?

"Man, you'd better get that work done before I get home if you know what's good for you." 

Gaer


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## elroy

Gaer, I see it a little differently.

1. You (had) better do your homework, or you'll be in deep trouble.
2. You better have done your homework, or you're in deep trouble.

I would use 1. to refer to the future. 

For example, a parent is about to leave his house and wants his son to do his homework while he's gone. He says 1.

I would use 2. to refer to the past.

For example, a parent comes back home after having said 1. to his son when he left. Now, he uses 2 to refer to the past. If the son has not done his homework, he is in deep trouble.

Although technically you could use 1. in the first scenario ("I'm about to leave, son. You better have done your homework by the time I come back") I agree with you that it sounds stilted in that context. I would more readily say "You better do your homework while I'm out."

2. is also possible if, for example, the child is telling his friends what happened, and...

Child: And my dad told me to do my homework while he was gone, and if it wasn't done when he came back, I'd be grounded for a week! My parents left and were back two hours later.
Friend 1: Oooh! What happened then? 
Friend 2 (to Child): You better have done your homework!

In that context, it means, "I sure hope you had done your homeowrk!".


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## cyanista

elroy said:


> Gaer, I see it a little differently.
> 
> 1. You (had) better do your homework, or you'll be in deep trouble.
> 2. You better have done your homework, or you're in deep trouble.
> 
> I would use 1. to refer to the future.
> 
> For example, a parent is about to leave his house and wants his son to do his homework while he's gone. He says 1.
> 
> I would use 2. to refer to the past.



Ich sehe es auch so. Ich versuche mal, eine Situation mit dem Titelsatz auszuarbeiten. Die Mutter war am Wochenende nicht zu Hause und hat nächste Woche von dem Nachbarn erfahren, dass ihr Sohn anscheinend Samstag Abend in die Disko ging, statt sich, wie abgesrochen, auf die Klausur vorzubereiten. Der Sohn bestreitet alles. Dann sagt die Mutter: "You'd better have stayed at home! I'm going to talk to your little brother. If Jimmy tells me you weren't in, you'll be in great trouble, mister!" Klingt es glaubwürdig? Wenn ja, bitte ich Deutschsprecher, diese Aussage zu übersetzen. (Wenn nicht, dann nicht. )


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## elroy

cyanista said:


> Der Sohn bestreitet alles. Dann sagt die Mutter: "You'd better have stayed at home! I'm going to talk to your little brother. If Jimmy tells me you weren't in, you'll be in great trouble, mister!" Klingt es glaubwürdig?


 Ja, besonders wenn man das "better" hervorhebt.

Son: But it's not true!  I stayed at home all weekend!
Mother: You *better* have stayed at home! ...

Wie gesagt, ich würde das "had" auf jeden Fall weglassen.


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## gaer

cyanista said:


> Dann sagt die Mutter: "You'd better have stayed at home! I'm going to talk to your little brother. If Jimmy tells me you weren't in, you'll be in great trouble, mister!" Klingt es glaubwürdig?"


This is correct. I have to reread my thoughts from last night, but your logic here is right on the money.


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## gaer

elroy said:


> Gaer, I see it a little differently.


I read the whole post and I totally agree with all your points.

Let me comment on one point:


> Although technically you could use 1. in the first scenario ("I'm about to leave, son. You better have done your homework by the time I come back") I agree with you that it sounds stilted in that context. I would more readily say "You better do your homework while I'm out."


Then we have no disagreement at all. I also find this stilted:

"I'm about to leave, son. You['d] better have done your homework by the time I come back."

In fact, I would word it this way:

"I'm about to leave, son. You['d] better have your homework done by the time I come back."

My recommendation to non-natives is to recognize that context tells us what is meant with this sometimes unusual or stilted orconstruction.

Gaer


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## gaer

Aha!

I found this on the Net:

"You get the idea. This story arc will give you the freedom to come up with interesting missions and characters as well as a clearly defined goal (protect the planet). _*When the time limit is up and the aliens arive you had better have completed all of the major tasks and collected a solid core of soldiers to be able to fight the aliens.*_ 

[…] I don't know how hard it would be to put something like that together so I may be blowing smoke."

I had to delete some sentences because of our four sentence limit.

_*(When the time limit has expired and the aliens have arived, be sure that you have completed all of the major tasks and have collected a solid core of soldiers to be able to fight the aliens [or you will be in big trouble].)*_

Gaer


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## cheshire

Danke sehr, obwohl kann ich jetsz noch nicht vollich German vershanden.


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