# niais, niaiseux, niaiserie



## amg8989

Salut à tous,

I was wondering about the frequency of usage of *niaiserie* or one of its derivatives....

I stumbled across the word in my French dictionary the other day and was surprised that I had never heard it considering how simple and common its meaning is.

I've seen *bêtises* and *bête*, for nonsense and stupidity, but could I just as easily substitute a form of *niais*? Is it uncommon or old?

Merci d'avance!


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## LivingTree

In may be more common in Quebec / French Canada than elsewhere? I'm certainly familiar with it here.

I like this example:
Eco-niaiserie


In the plural, niaiseries seems to be in more common use in Canada -- use google.ca to search, and then select "pages from Canada".

The same seems to be true of _niaiser_. I've never run into _niais_, myself.


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## BeGood73162

Niaiserie and niais are pretty uncommon nowadays.
They could be used by older people sometimes, but they're more or less in the elevated style.
bêtises and bête are more common, but in spoken language between adults, you'll hear more often conneries, con, which are familiar, and even slang for some people...


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## LivingTree

niaiseux

That's the one I know from Quebec.


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## amg8989

d'accord merci!


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## ShoTo

BeGood73162 said:


> Niaiserie and niais are pretty uncommon nowadays.
> They could be used by older people sometimes, but they're more or less in the elevated style.
> bêtises and bête are more common, but in spoken language between adults, you'll hear more often conneries, con, which are familiar, and even slang for some people...


It's not true, "niaiserie" may be uncommon but it doesn't sound awkward for a youngster to say it. And "niais" isn't uncommon at all, it doesn't mean "conneries" "bêtises" or "bête" but "nunuche". Sorry, I don't know the English translation.


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## Itisi

'Niais' means silly, but with the connotation of being a bit simple.


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## Marketman

Bonjour

comment traduire niais/ niaise dans le sens "nunuche", "cucu-la praline", gentillet, pour la phrase "un couple niais" ?
Merci pour vos suggestions


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## Enquiring Mind

Naive, a bit simple, a bit too nice, gullible, easily fooled, easily taken advantage of - more context needed: what happened to them or what did they do to warrant the description "niais"?


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## Ajidicia

As stated, _niais_ is usualy used as "a bit simple". (we would easily say : "Il est un peu niais.") 
However, it's quite a rare word in France, but it's widely used in Québec.
The variations of _niais_ like "niaiseux", "niaiserie", "niaiser", etc... are exclusively used in Québec, and French people won't understand these words (they might guess however).


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## MickaelV

I believe "idiot" is often a better translation to "niais" than "silly".


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## Nicomon

I'm sorry but I don't agree, MichaelIV.

I think that the English _idiot_ is closer to_ imbécile/crétin  _which (at least to me) are more pejorative than _niais - _or Quebec equivalent _niaiseux_... which is at the bottom of this page : *niais* _ 
_
I agree with Itisi's definition from 2011.    _simple-minded?_ _a bit dumb?_ 
Or context depending (as EM suggested) :  _gullible, naïve...
_
The noun « _un niais_ » defined as : 





> Personne sans expérience, gauche, sotte. _Pauvre niais; petite niaise._


 is often rendered as _simpleton_.


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## MickaelV

Well, we can agree to disagree because in my personal experience, in my surroundings, I have heard this word in a way that reminds me more of "idiot" than "silly", for example at school when I was young.
So I do know the official translation, but "niais" can be way more offensive and pejorative than "silly" in the mouth of some French people.


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## Nicomon

"silly" ne me viendrait pas spontanément non plus pour traduire « niais / niaiseux ».
 Mais je n'irais pas jusqu'à  "idiot".   Parce que pour moi le sens est plus proche de « pas déluré / naïf ».  

Comme le petit oiseau de l'étymologie du mot *niais*.

Je dirais à la rigueur_  stupid. _


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## MickaelV

C'est une erreur de frappe ou vous souhaitiez vraiment écrire "pas déluré" ? En France on écrirait l'inverse, "déluré" sans négation.
Mais pour "idiot" je disais ça parce que je l'ai déjà entendu dit sur un ton haineux et culpabilisant, mais bon c'est peut-être une variante locale propre à ma région de naissance.


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## Nicomon

Non ce n'est pas une erreur de frappe.  

Une personne « délurée » n'est pas niaise.   Du moins pas dans mon vocabulaire. 

Pour moi _déluré _veut dire _futé / dégourdi_.  D'ailleurs un des synonymes de *déluré* (lien vers l'entrée du CNRTL) est _déniaisé._
Donc_ pas déluré = pas déniaisé =  niais/niaiseux.  _


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## MickaelV

Ah bah c'est la meilleure ! Toute ma vie j'ai entendu dans ma famille et mes proches le terme employé à l'envers alors !
J'entends souvent "il/elle est complètement déluré/e" avec le sens de sot/te.


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## petit1

Comme *Nico*, j'emploie_ déluré_ dans le sens de _dégourdi_. Donc "_niais = pas trop déluré_".

Je crois avoir compris la confusion de Mickael.
On peut très bien dire: "_Ah il est déluré (celui-là)_!" en sous-entendant l'inverse. Comme quand on dit: "_Ah, tu es malin_!" Tout est dans le ton. Ce n'est pas toujours facile de saisir la nuance et il est possible que cela conduise à une erreur de sens. Les enfants, en particulier, ne sentent pas toujours la différence.

Pour "_déniaisé_", j'hésiterais à l'employer car il a aussi, du moins en France, le sens de faire perdre sa virginité.
Ex. _La baronne de Beauvais avait été chargée de déniaiser le roi Louis XIV_.


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## Nicomon

D'accord avec toi pour ce qui est de déniaisé, petit1. 

Le sens usuel est : 





> Qui a perdu son innocence, sa virginité. Une jeune fille déniaisée.


 Ce qui me fait penser qu'au Québec, on dit parfois_  innocent_  dans les divers sens de_ niais_ justement. 





> QUÉBEC, FAMILIER – Sot, écervelé. _Qu’est-ce que j’ai fait au Bon Dieu pour mériter un enfant aussi innocent!_
> 
> QUÉBEC –Personne crédule, trop naïve.


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## ain'ttranslationfun?

I always thought that "niais" had a connotation of "innocent", too. It even looks/sounds (a little bit) like "naïf/naïve", to boot - not that that necessarily has anything to do with it. Doesn't "déniaser" somebody mean "to wise them up" or "to set them straight" - to disillusion them (like telling them that there's no Santa Claus, as in the old joke about when Grandma is telling a couple of her grandkids that the stork brought them, and one says to the other, "Devrions-nous la déniaiser?)"


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## frenchenglishart

niais= foolish (i'd say). silly, in American English can be more of a light jokester. If you are making light jokes, someone can say you are being silly which is quite different than foolish. Silly can be good and pleasant in American English, foolish not so much. 

Foolish can be niais, (gullible, not very bright, not too street-wise, etc.) or can also be unwise, like in the case of someone that takes excessive risks, not linked to lack of intelligence.


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## Chimel

Mon petit grain de sel...
- niais: me semble tout de même en forte perte de vitesse dans l'usage courant. Je ne me souviens pas l'avoir utilisé ou entendu dans un passé pas trop lointain - et je ne parle pas des jeunes générations... Comme le sens est (à mon avis) un peu à cheval entre _bête_ et _naïf_, ce mot a sans doute du mal à s'imposer par rapport à ces deux termes beaucoup plus courants. Mais on le rencontre encore couramment dans la littérature. _Déniaiser_ reste fréquent, dans un sens sexuel
- déluré: je l'entends surtout sous la forme négative, _un garçon pas très_ _déluré_. Sens assez proche de _débrouillard, dégourdi_. _Déluré_ n'est pas vraiment le contraire de _niais_, mais on ne peut pas être à la fois niais et déluré.


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## Nicomon

_Niais_ n'est pas très courant au Québec non plus.

Par contre _niaiseux_ (aussi à cheval entre _bête_ et _naïf_) mentionné en bas de page dans le CNRTL
(lien *niais* au post 12) est encore bien vivant.

D'accord aussi que ce ne sont pas de parfaits antonymes.


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## petit1

> someone that takes excessive risks, not linked to lack of intelligence


I think that in this case, we would not use "niais" in French. We would rather say "_imbécile_" or even "_petit c.."_


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## Chimel

petit1 said:


> _déluré(e) _ signifie souvent que la personne est assez effrontée. "une fille très délurée"


Oui, et même parfois aussi avec une connotation sexuelle: elle est très délurée pour son âge...


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## pollycat34

I have also heard "niaiseries" used in the context of "soppiness"...


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## ain'ttranslationfun?

Wouldn't "soppiness" be more like "mièvrerie(s)"?


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## pollycat34

Perhaps a dictionary will be strict on this topic, but in actual usage and for translation purposes it may be better translated as soppy (or something similar) depending on the context. In one context that I translated this morning, the meaning was clearly "soppy" rather than "silly". Two young lovers whispering sweet nothings to each other in a soppy way, and the two onlookers burst out laughing at their "niaiseries", so I agree with archijacq that this is a possibility.


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## Nicomon

Is s*o*ppiness a BE variant?  I would have said  _s*a*ppiness_ : 





> US, CAN –the quality of being silly and sentimental —The sappiness of the movie was attacked by most critics.


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## ain'ttranslationfun?

Fo me, a sap is someone who is credulous, a dupe, a sucker, _un pigeon_, but yes, it can also describe someone who is a fool in love_. _


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## Chimel

pollycat34 said:


> Two young lovers whispering sweet nothings to each other in a soppy way, and the two onlookers burst out laughing at their "niaiseries", so I agree with archijacq that this is a possibility.


Well, in this particular case of lovers whispering silly things, I would go for Ain'trtranslationfun _mièvreries_ (and by the way I don't see in this thread where Archijacq suggests _niaiseries_)


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## Nicomon

I'm adding this definition of _ niaiserie _copied from *this page* of the CNRTL, which seems to confirm what pollycat wrote (emphasis mine) : 





> Ce qui est niais (*parole*, pensée, écrit, activité humaine, objet concret). _*Niaiserie sentimentale*; _


  Incidentally, _mièvrerie _(ain'tt, Chimel)  is translated as _mushiness_ in the WR dictionary.  Which I agree is somewhat related to _sappiness/soppiness_. 

This is a link to the WR dictionary, for *soppy *listing at the bottom French words such as: *gnangnan - guimauve - mièvre 
*
And this one is a link to the AE equivalent* sappy *


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## jekoh

I agree with Pollycat and use _niais _to mean_ soppy _pretty often myself, usually in the context of movies.


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## Nicomon

I personally prefer _gnangnan _/ _cucul _ or _ à l'eau de rose / à la guimauve  _to define _soppy / mushy movies_.  

If I meant _soppy, _I wouldn't be likely to say : _ ce film est niais, _and not even the Quebec equivalent_ niaiseux. _
If I said that, it would mean _stupid / uninteresting _or  _supposedly  funny but... not._


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## ZarLa

Hey.

I'm sorry, but in France *"niais & niaiserie" are very common*.
They've got the two senses you all already explained :

1- *Niais/niaise* (adj. / n.)  : *a bit simple* (person / part of a movie/book/story or the whole story / an attitude...).
Synonym of (but worse and much more pejorative than) "*naïf*" (*naive*)
But still better than *silly*.
It often implies the idea of *too much kindness *as naive does but it could be the exact opposite : a systematical conspiracy theorist could be "niais".
Examples: 
- "Ce qu'il raconte est niais."
- "Il m'a raconté une blague niaise."
- "Cette personne est niaise." / "Lui, là, le niais."

*Niaiserie* (nf.) : a bit simple ( part of a movie/book/story or the whole story / activities...).
Exactly same remarks.
Not applicable to a person/human (but to its behavior "Arrête de faire des niaiseries!")
Examples: 
- "Il raconte des niaiseries." / "Ce film est une pure niaiserie."

*Niaiseux / niaiseuse* (n./adj.) : not French but Quebec-French. Synonym of "*niais / sot*"
We, French, will understand. Maybe verbally used, in France, to soften the insult, I don't really know. "Le niaiseux." / "Il est un peu niaiseux."
Prefer the use of "niais" if you search for official language.

2- The second sense comes out of the first :

*Niais/niaise *(adj.) : virginal (person). A little dated, but well understood with the common usage : "*encore niais/e*." (still a virgin)

*Déniaiser* (vtr) : *take [sb]'s virginity* (common)
- Seems to have yet another sense in Quebec-French : _To deprave (v)_ . But forget it in France, we'll only think about sex activity ! 

Regards

Note:
Déluré = un peu dépravé
Peut donc s'assimiler d' "intelligemment critique" jusqu'à son total opposé, "sale con / pauvre crétin", selon les valeurs de l'orateur, celles de l'auditeur, et l'exact comportement de la personne concernée...
D'où la confusion possible.


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