# Too (much)



## ThomasK

A brief question on this short word: how do you translate
(a) *too [too big, too little/few]* and
(b) t*oo much?*
And how do you translate ...
(c) * too much money* _(Do you need 2 or 3 or 4 words, or how do you do it? Can one make mistakes using "too"?)_

Dutch/ _German_
(a)  t*e [te groot, te weinig], zu [zu groß, zu wenig]*
(b) *te veel/ zuviel*
(c) *te veel geld/ zuviel Geld*

French (but please check, Yendred)
(a) tr*op [grand/gros, trop peu]*
(b) *trop *
(c) *trop d' argent*

So I suppose as for (c) that there are 4 elements that may be combined: TOO, MUCH, prep, _money..._


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## Dymn

Catalan and Spanish are like French but without the partitive preposition.

*Catalan*:

(a) _massa (massa gran/gros, massa poc)_
(b) _massa_
(c) _massa diners

massa _is invariable in Catalan but colloquially you can find people using the plural form _masses:_ _masses diners_

*Spanish*:

(a) _demasiado (demasiado grande, demasiado poco)_
(b) _demasiado_
(c) _demasiado dinero

demasiado _changes according to gender and number like all adjectives: _demasiad(o/a/os/as)_


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## apmoy70

Greek:

(a) *«πολύ»* [pɔˈli] (adv.) --> _much, a lot, too_, adverbialized accusative of the Classical adj. *«πολύς, -λλή, -λύ» pŏlús* (masc.), *pŏllḗ* (fem.), *pŏlú* (neut.) --> _many, alot, wide, large_ (PIE *p(e)lh₁-u- _many_ cf Skt. पुरु (purú), _many_, Proto-Germanic *felu > Ger. viel, Dt. veel, Eng. feel).
(b) *«πάρα πολύ»* [ˈpa.ɾa pɔˈli] --> _too much_; «πάρα» is a preposition (alt. *«παρά»* [paˈɾa]) and derives from the Classical one *«παρά» părắ*, alt. *«πάρα» pắră*, poetic *«παραί» păraí̯* --> _besides, by, from, next to, alongside, against_ (PIE *prh₂-/*preh₂- _beside, by_ cf Lat. præ, Proto-Germanic *furi > Ger. für, Eng. for).
In MoGr *«πάρα»* is used in sentences to declare comparison, or introduces adverbial clauses of comparison.
(c) ιn MoGr _money_ is countable, therefore the adj. *«πολλά»* [pɔˈla] (neut. nom. pl.) is used to modify the noun _money_ = *«χρήματα»* [ˈxri.ma.ta] (neut. nom. pl.) or colloquially, *«λεφτά»* [lefˈta] (neut. nom. pl.): *«έχει πάρα πολλά χρήματα/λεφτά»* [ˈe.çi ˈpa.ɾa pɔˈla ˈxri.ma.ta]/[ˈe.çi ˈpa.ɾa pɔˈla lefˈta] --> _(s/he) has too much (Gr. many) money(s)_


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## Olaszinhok

*Italian* is pretty similar to French, except letter c.
a) *troppo
b) troppo
c) troppo/a/i/e* troppo denaro, troppa farina, troppi soldi, troppe persone.


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## Yendred

ThomasK said:


> French (but please check, Yendred)
> (a) tr*op [grand/gros, trop peu]*
> (b) *trop *
> (c) *trop d' argent*



(a) _Too _+ adjective = *Trop *+ adjectif:
_trop grand, trop gros, trop fort, ..._

(b) _Too much _as is, like in "_This is too much (for me_)" = _C'est *trop *(pour moi)_

(c) _Too much/Too many _+ noun = _*Trop de*_ + nom:
_trop de voitures, trop d'argent, trop de pain, ..._

Note that _trop _is pronounced [tʁo], unless it's followed by a word starting with a vowel or a silent 'h', in which case, the liaison is pronounced:_ trop grand _[tʁo ɡʁɑ̃], _trop aimable _[tʁop‿ɛmabl], _trop heureux _[tʁop‿øʁø]

In the same manner:
_Too few/Too little _+ adjective = _*Trop peu* _+ adjectif (but the opposite adjective is much more common: _trop peu fort = trop faible_)
_Too few/Too little _+ noun = _*Trop peu de* _+ nom


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## Armas

Finnish:
a) _liian (liian iso _"too big"_, liian pieni _"too small"_)_
b) _liikaa/liiaksi_
c) _liikaa/liiaksi_ _rahaa_
From adj. _liika_ "excess".


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## AndrasBP

Hungarian:

a) *túl */tu:l/ - túl nagy (too big), túl fiatal (too young)
b) *túl sok *(too much/many)
c) *túl sok* pénz (too much money), *túl sok* virág (too many flowers)


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## Awwal12

Note that English "too much" has essentially two meanings:
1. (+ noun) indicating the excessive amount of uncountable elements;
2. (+ verb) indicating excessive activity.
Russian uses "слишком много" (slíshkom mnógo) in the first case and simply "слишком" (slíshkom) in the second most of the time (the detailed usage seems irrelevant here). "Слишком" obviously comes from the adverbialized phrase "с лишком" ("with an excess"; cf. adj. лишний "líshniy" - "superfluous", "excessive", "unnecessary", "not required", "spare") and is used as an equivalent for "too + adj." as well; "много" stands for "many/much".
Too much money = слишком много денег (slíshkom mnógo déneg) ~"too many/much of-monies" ("money" in Russian is plurale tantum).


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## ThomasK

There is too much to process now for me, but very interesting contributions. Thanks!


Dymn said:


> Catalan and Spanish are like French but without the partitive preposition.
> 
> *Catalan*:
> 
> (a) _massa (massa gran/gros, massa poc) / _(b) _massa/  _(c) _massa diners
> 
> massa _is invariable in Catalan but colloquially you can find people using the plural form _masses:_ _masses diners_
> 
> *Spanish*:
> 
> (a) _demasiado (demasiado grande, demasiado poco)/ _(b) _demasiado/  _(c) _demasiado dinero_


  I suppose the Catalan word _mass _refers to the same root as the English _mass _(lump, ...), but could _demasiado _refer to measuring (_démesuré _in French)? 
I am - from my Dutch perspective - surprised that it is a very "lexical" word, not what I would call "just a functional word" with no other meaning than "too"...  Do you associate the_ mas(s) _word with the general word mass/massa/.., ( _a mass of people_) supposing that that is the same?


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## ThomasK

apmoy70 said:


> (a) *«πολύ»* (adv.) --> _much, a lot, too_, adverbialized accusative of the Classical adj. *«πολύς, -λλή, -λύ» *
> (b) *«πάρα πολύ»*  --> _too much_; «πάρα» is a preposition (alt. *«παρά»* [paˈɾa]) --> _besides, by, from, next to, alongside, against_
> (c) ιn MoGr _money_ is countable, therefore the adj. *«πολλά»* [pɔˈla] (neut. nom. pl.) is used to modify the noun _money_ = *«χρήματα»* [ˈxri.ma.ta] (neut. nom. pl.) or colloquially, *«λεφτά»* [lefˈta] (neut. nom. pl.): *«έχει πάρα πολλά χρήματα/λεφτά»* [ˈe.çi ˈpa.ɾa pɔˈla ˈxri.ma.ta]/[ˈe.çi ˈpa.ɾa pɔˈla lefˈta] --> _(s/he) has too much (Gr. many) money(s)_


 I am not sure whether I understand quite correctly but when reading your example n colour in (c) I notice that you translate "too" as /para/ but not as /polu/ mentioned in (a). Isn't that strange?



Armas said:


> Finnish:
> a) _liian (liian iso _"too big"_, liian pieni _"too small"_)_
> b) _liikaa/liiaksi_
> c) _liikaa/liiaksi_ _rahaa_
> From adj. _liika_ "excess".


 Is there a possibility of explaining the form lii-an/lii-kaa, -aksi as compared with /lii/, Armas?



Olaszinhok said:


> *Italian* is pretty similar to French, except letter c.
> *c) troppo/a/i/e* troppo denaro, troppa farina, troppi soldi, troppe persone.


 So no "di" needed. "Troppo" is an adjective here, isn't it?


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## apmoy70

ThomasK said:


> I am not sure whether I understand quite correctly but when reading your example n colour in (c) I notice that you translate "too" as /para/ but not as /polu/ mentioned in (a). Isn't that strange?


I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough.
The adverb «πολύ» is _much_, while the adjective «πολύς» (masc.), «πολλή» (fem.), «πολύ» (neut.) is _many_.
In some cases, the Greek «πολύ» (adv.) is translated as _too_ in English:
*«Πολύ μεγάλος, -λη, -λο»* [pɔˈli meˈɣa.lɔs] (masc.), [pɔˈli meˈɣa.li] (fem.), [pɔˈli meˈɣa.lɔ] (neut.)--> _too big_
*«Πολύ μικρός, -ρή, -ρό»* [pɔˈli miˈkrɔs] (masc.), [pɔˈli miˈkri] (fem.), [pɔˈli miˈkrɔ] (neut.) --> _too little_
But, we translate the English _too much/many_ by employing the preposition «πάρα» which is used in adverbial clauses of comparison, or in comparison sentences in general, so:
_Too much X_ is «πάρα πολύ X» while _too many Y_ is «πάρα πολύς (masc.)/πολλή (fem.)/πολύ (neut.) Y».


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## ThomasK

I am beginning to see the light, I think. But still this variation in meaning much/too is strange --- but interesting!


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## symposium

Italian: troppo (troppi plural)
- too big = troppo grande
- too much = troppo
- too much money = troppi soldi (money is plural in Italian)



Dymn said:


> *Catalan*:
> 
> (a) _massa (massa gran/gros, massa poc)_
> (b) _massa_
> (c) _massa diners_



Funny thing: "too much" is "massa" in Venitian, too:
- too big = massa grando
- too much = massa
- too much money = massa schei


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## Awwal12

ThomasK said:


> But still this variation in meaning much/too is strange


Well, the development "much" > "too much" is quite trivial. The rest is the matter of lexico-syntactical nuances.

P.S.: Probably I also should mention the synonymous Russian adverb "чересчур" (chereschúr, transparently meaning "over the *chur*", which would be "over the edge" etymologically, likely implying "so much that it overfills the vessel and runs over the edge"). It works just in the same fashion as "сли́шком", minus some stylistical nuances.


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## Dymn

ThomasK said:


> but could _demasiado _refer to measuring (_démesuré _in French)?


It's derived from _demasía_ (which is nowadays a formal word meaning "excess"), itself from _demás_ (of+more). _Demás_ means "other / remaining" as in "the other people" = _los demás._



ThomasK said:


> I am - from my Dutch perspective - surprised that it is a very "lexical" word, not what I would call "just a functional word" with no other meaning than "too"...


I see what you mean. For example from a Westerner's perspective it's surprising to see the Japanese _watashi_ meant something like "private" before becoming the (usual?) first-person singular pronoun. In all of European languages the word for "I" gets lost in the end of time without having ever changed its meaning.

The pluralization of _massa_ I mentioned could be a sign of grammaticalization I guess, to adapt it to the way all other adjectives behave. The words _gaire _"many (in negative sentences)" or _prou _"enough" are also often non-standardly pluralized (these two have etymologies which aren't obvious to the native speaker anyway).



ThomasK said:


> Do you associate the_ mas(s) _word with the general word mass/massa/.., ( _a mass of people_) supposing that that is the same?


Yes, the word for "mass" is also _massa_. The link is obvious but I think people would only become aware if they stopped a moment to think about etymologies, which they generally don't.


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## ThomasK

Awwal12 said:


> Well, the development "much" > "too much" is quite trivial.


 Why "trivial"? I'd think the meanings are quite different, aren't they? If someone tells me "I make many mistakes" vs. "too many", there is a clear-cut difference and an important one, I think: "many" can impress to some extent, but "too many" predicts more trouble, no?


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## Awwal12

For one thing, because it's also present in Russian on some level.  In English you hardly will say something like "no, it's much" (="too much"). In Russian you actually can (it also works the other way around: "little/few" can contextually mean "too little/few").

Cf. also Turkish "fazla", for example.


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## ThomasK

I see... But I think in most cultures (...) where a distinction is made, the difference can be viewed as big. I wonder whether you do not need some kind of distinction in certain cases. Let me try to find some kind of situation. OK, just imagine: there is little food but some person eats a lot, really a lot. You could say: (a) "Boy, you are eating a lot!" [maybe implying but not very clearly that that person is eating too much] or (b) "Boy, you are eating too much!!!" The latter sentence might trigger an argument, even a fight.
It is not impossible that in some cases the same sentence can be used with these two meanings, due to some non-verbal clues, but still... Don't you need a different expression in (b) in Russian? I am really wondering... _(Thanks in advance)_


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## ThomasK

Dymn said:


> It's derived from _demasía_ (which is nowadays a formal word meaning "excess"), itself from _demás_ (of+more). _Demás_ means "other / remaining" as in "the other people" = _los demás. _


_ I see, so the root is 'mass " again, not "measure"_



Dymn said:


> The pluralization of _massa_ I mentioned could be a sign of grammaticalization I guess, to adapt it to the way all other adjectives behave. The words _gaire _"many (in negative sentences)" or _prou _"enough" are also often non-standardly pluralized (these two have etymologies which aren't obvious to the native speaker anyway).
> 
> Yes, the word for "mass" is also _massa_. The link is obvious but I think people would only become aware if they stopped a moment to think about etymologies, which they generally don't.


 So they don't analyse it, though it would be analysable. I see. It happens in any language, I suppose. 
INteresting note on why mass- is declined: might indeed be a sign of grammaticalisation!


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## Dymn

ThomasK said:


> I see, so the root is 'mass " again, not "measure"


Sorry, I didn't explain myself correctly. _Más_ means "more" and comes from Latin _magis_. It's unrelated to _massa_.


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## ThomasK

INteresting addition. Had not thought of that!


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## Yendred

Dymn said:


> _Más_ means "more" and comes from Latin _magis_



Interestingly enough they also had in Latin _demagis_ (much), coming from _valde magis = strongly more_. It must have given _demás, demasía, demasiado..._

Now why did Italian take the Frankish root for _troppo _(as French for _trop), _and not the Latin root as Spanish did, is a mystery... __


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## Welsh_Sion

Welsh:

(a) *too [too big, too little/few]* - rhy + Soft Mutation. rhy fawr [< mawr], ( *Too big*) rhy ychydig (*Too little/few*)

(b) *too much / too many* - gormod o + Soft Mutation. gormod o win [< gwin] (*Too much wine), *gormod o dudalennau [< tudalennau] (*Too many (book) pages*)

(c) *too much money * - gormod o bres (NW) / arian (SW)

Related to another thread with 'enough', my father invented this rather nonsensical sentence (but the translations are correct):

'*Enough* is a _digon_, but _gormod_ is *too much'*


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## ThomasK

Yendred said:


> Interestingly enough they also had in Latin _demagis_ (much), coming from _valde magis = strongly more_. It must have given _demás, demasía, demasiado..._


 Demagis sounds like outrageous to me, so too much... 



Welsh_Sion said:


> Related to another thread with 'enough', my father invented this rather nonsensical sentence (but the translations are correct):
> 
> '*Enough* is a _digon_, but _gormod_ is *too much'*


 Not sure I get it, sorry: Enough is an enough???


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## Welsh_Sion

I guess it was a weak attempt at humour, ThomasK, by using both languages. It's really only a bit of nonsense (in the sense of 'rubbish' - not in the sense of 'not making sense'.) It in fact makes perfect sense but is really the translation of the appropriate terms. Maybe my old Dad's 'humour' washes over you. Sorry about that.


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## ThomasK

No prob! I just wondered whether there was something more that I "was missing"...


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## pollohispanizado

Yendred said:


> Interestingly enough they also had in Latin _demagis_ (much), coming from _valde magis = strongly more_. It must have given _demás, demasía, demasiado..._
> 
> Now why did Italian take the Frankish root for _troppo _(as French for _trop), _and not the Latin root as Spanish did, is a mystery... __


They do have a word (_mai_) that came from the Latin root _magis_, it's just that it came to mean "_never, ever; always_" instead of "_more_".


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## ThomasK

..., which is amazing. 

I have been thinking: could there be *any direct link between "too much" and 'enough*"? I mean: they seem like opposites (the right or the wrong measure/ degree), but I guess we have not had words for those concepts that have the same root,in this thread or have we? 'Much" and "too much" seem closer...


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## Awwal12

Awwal12 said:


> For one thing, because it's also present in Russian on some level.  In English you hardly will say something like "no, it's much" (="too much"). In Russian you actually can (it also works the other way around: "little/few" can contextually mean "too little/few").
> 
> Cf. also Turkish "fazla", for example.


...And the actually similar developments "early" > "too early" and "late" > "too late" (seemingly present in English as well to some extent; e.g. "to be late").


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## ThomasK

Very interesting point. Happened to notice that today: "early" in English is "too early", indeed (I knew about "late", not really about "early"). But what could be the rationale behind it? Can you draw a conclusion?


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## Awwal12

ThomasK said:


> Very interesting point. Happened to notice that today: "early" in English is "too early", indeed (I knew about "late", not really about "early"). But what could be the rationale behind it? Can you draw a conclusion?


Well, just the most typical contexts of usage + the general tendency to omit unnecessary words.

Russian words for "big" and "small" also work in a similar fashion (e.g. ~"_these shoes are small to me_").


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## nimak

In *Macedonian* there is a prefix пре- (pre-) which besides the other meanings also means: _too, overly, excessively_.

*голем* (gólem) adj.m. "_big_" -> *преголем *(prégolem) "_too big_"
*мал *(mál) adj.m. "_small_" -> *премал *(prémal) "_too small_"
*малку *(málku) adv. "_little/few_" -> *премалку *(prémalku) "_too little/few_"
*многу *(mnógu) adv. "_much/many_" -> *премногу *(prémnogu) "_too much/many_"
_too much money_ = *премногу пари* (prémnogu pári)

Instead of the prefix *пре-* (pre-) one may also use the adverb *премногу *(prémnogu) _"too much/many"_:

*голем* (gólem) adj.m. "_big_" -> *премногу голем *(prémnogu gólem) "_too big_", lit. "_too much big_"
*мал *(mál) adj.m. "_small_" -> *премногу мал *(prémnogu mál) "_too small_", lit. "_too much small_"

The prefix *pre-* is also used to create absolute superlative:
gólem (_pos_.) -> pógolem (_comp_.) -> nájgolem (_sup_.) -> prégolem _(abs.sup_.)


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## ThomasK

Thanks, Nimak! 

@Awwal12: do you have a word that could function like "too", so a word you could add to an adjective? For example: can you distinguish between "hot" and "too hot". In Dutch there might be some ambiguity: "heet" may somehow be dangerous, too much, but not per se. When adding "te" it becomes quite clear though.


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## Awwal12

ThomasK said:


> do you have a word that could function like "too", so a word you could add to an adjective?


Isn't it what we're mostly discussing in this thread?  See "слишком" and "чересчур" above ("too" with adjectives and adverbs, "too much" with verbs in some contexts).


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## ThomasK

It is, but I remember (or no, I find out) that on Feb. 5 I wrote: "There is too much to process now for me, but very interesting contributions." So please forgive me. But maybe I'd need to take some time to just read all this over again, maybe especially your contributions as they have been "digging deep" from your Russian (and broader) point of view...

In the meantime I have read it. And I think I can conclude so far: 
1. Indeed, you certainly have a* lexical way of expressing "over-quantity", *which we have too, but "overmatig" is very uncommon (over-measure, maybe beyond the right measure), so parallel with your words, I'd think. It can be used with adj., N, V... 

2. "Te" (too) is probably derived from the directional preposition "te", now uncommon in Dutch (to), and I am inclined to consider that a *grammaticalisation *(a step further in the evolution than a lexical expression, I think: the link with the original meaning is no longer semantically analysed - or recognizable); I think that is the option you do not have in Russian - or am I mistaken again?

3. Is *"too" + Adj different from "too" + N/V? As for the use yes*: _too hard _vs. _worked too hard _(*_worked too_)_, too much work

4. I_n Dutch *the context *will not really do to distinguish between for instance "hot" and "too hot"! Somebody using (b) might be in pain, a person using (a) is not normally… Even if someone yelled "Hot!" it would still not refer to a danger, I think, even at a high pitch it would be strange because the "too" might be like a call for help... 

Not sure - _never sure, but that's me_… - if I have grasped everything you meant, but correct me If I am wrong. 

Just by the way: what would be the technical linguistic term for what we express by "te"? I tried with _over-quantity _but … ??? _Exaggeration _would deliberate. _Excess_? Sounds too moral to me...


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