# Debba



## MoonMudAstronaut

Ok, I am studying Italian and in one of my 'compiti' I wrote: 
"Si *deve* conoscere molto bene anche la cultura del posto" 
When I got it back, the marker had inserted 'debba' instead of 'deve'. I know it's another form of the verb 'dovere', but why is it preferable to 'deve' and when should it be used? What exactly does it mean?


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## Elisa68

_Debba_ is the subjunctive of _dovere_.
Could you post the previous sentence?


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## MoonMudAstronaut

Thanks for replying!
Yes, I wrote: 'Io penso che per essere un bra*v*a traduttrice, si deve conoscere molto bene anche la cultura del posto.'


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## Elisa68

I see. In this case, since you are using _Io penso che_ you need a subjunctive in the subordinate sentence. The verb _pensare_ introduces an opinion.


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## MoonMudAstronaut

Grazie mille! Adesso comincio a capire!


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## Otter

*Ciao a tutti,*

*I received an e-mail which contains the following sentence:*

*"Mi dispiace che tu debba aspettare."*

*I translate it as "I'm sorry you have to wait."*

*However, I don't understand the use of subjunctive (debba) in this sentence.  *

*Is the Italian subjunctive different from English?  Does it put a differnt spin on the translation from what I understood?  Or is it incorrect grammar?*

*Grazie.*

*Otter.*


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## Panpan

I would read that as 'I am sorry that you might have to wait'.  The writer can't say for sure that you absolutely and unavoidably will have to wait, so he uses the subjunctive to express the uncertainty?
But I'm not completly sure about it.
Panpan


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## Otter

*Grazie, Panpan.  *

*That's an interesting translation for "debba" and increases my understanding.   I wouldn't have though of it.*

*If anyone has a different take on it, please let me know.  *

*Again, Grazie.*

*Otter.*


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## TrentinaNE

If you Google "Italian subjunctive," you'll turn up several useful explanations, including this one.


> In Italian, though, the subjunctive tense is alive and flourishing, both in speaking and writing. Rather than stating facts, it expresses doubt, possibility, uncertainty, or personal feelings. It can also express emotion, desire, or suggestions.


"I'm sorry that" expresses a feeling, and that requires the subjunctive after "che."   

Elisabetta


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## Otter

Well, okay, now I can't wrap my brain around it.

If 'debba' is required after "I'm sorry", then does the lack of finality about the waiting disappear?  

Is Panpan's interpretation no longer possible?  Is it definitely  "I'm sorry that you have to wait"?

Thanks.

Otter.


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## TrentinaNE

It is "I'm sorry you have to wait," and the subjunctive after "I'm sorry" doesn't necessarily imply uncertainty. I'm sorry that you had to wait (in other words, I know that you had to wait, and I regret that) also requires the subjunctive: Mi dispiace che tu dovessi aspettare. (At least, I think so!)

Ciao, 
Elisabetta


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## Otter

*Thanks.  I'm still confused as to whether the use of 'debba' may imply uncertainty about whether or not one has to wait, even if, as you write, it doesn't necessarily mean that.  If it may be interpreted as Panpan suggests, I'm left  wondering about the confusion created by subjunctive being necessary when emotion is being expressed as well as when possibilities rather than certainties are being related.*

*Can someone give me a more definitive answer or is it up for grabs?*

*Would there be a more clear cut way to say, "I'm sorry you may have to wait".  *

*Thanks again.  Sorry to be nit-picking but I'm lost in translation . . .*

*Otter.*


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## lsp

Hi, Otter, it's just a rule, subjunctive after sorry... certainty or not. Some words just require it, like contento/a: sono contenta che tu  sia qui.


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## TrentinaNE

Otter said:


> *Would there be a more clear cut way to say, "I'm sorry you may have to wait". *


I think you can just add "maybe":  Mi dispiace che forse tu debba aspettare.

Che ne pensate, madrelingua?  

Eliabaetta


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## fox71

Io direi: "Mi dispiace che forse dovrai aspettare".
"forse" e "debba" nella stessa frase non suonano tanto bene, secondo me...per questo preferisco il futuro...


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## Paulfromitaly

TrentinaNE said:


> I think you can just add "maybe":  Mi dispiace che forse tu debba aspettare.



You need to add "forse" if you want to express uncertainty because "mi dispiace che tu debba aspettare" has got none..it's a rather clear yet kind statement: "I'm sorry, but you will have to wait".


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## Necsus

TrentinaNE said:
			
		

> It is "I'm sorry you have to wait," and the subjunctive after "I'm sorry" doesn't necessarily imply uncertainty. I'm sorry that you had to wait (in other words, I know that you had to wait, and I regret that) also requires the subjunctive: Mi dispiace che tu dovessi aspettare. (At least, I think so!)
> 
> I think you can just add "maybe": Mi dispiace che forse tu debba aspettare.
> Che ne pensate, madrelingua?


I'm sorry for crosses, Elisabetta.  Io ne penso ciò:
Mi dispiace che tu debba aspettare
Mi dispiace che tu abbia dovuto aspettare
Mi dispiace che forse dovrai aspettare
Here the subjunctive is not expression of uncertainty, it is simply required by "mi dispiace", as a verb that express feelings (like piacere, seccare, stupire, meravigliare, etc.).


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## mateintwo

Nescus you wrote:

Mi dispiace che tu debba aspettare
Mi dispiace che tu abbia dovuto aspettare
Mi dispiace che forse dovrai aspettare

I understand the first and third translations and even in English it may sound better saying I'm sorry that maybe you *will *have to wait

The middle sentence on the other hand says I'm sorry that you *have had* to wait which is fine but I still do not understand why you marked: Mi dispiace che tu dovessi aspettare. as a wrong translation for: I'm sorry that you *had* to wait.

Can you please elaborate.


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## Necsus

In this sentence there are three possible cases of tenses concord with indicative present in the main clause (mi dispiace):
anteriority = mi dispiace che tu abbia dovuto aspettare;
contemporaneity = mi dispiace che tu debba aspettare;
posteriority = mi dispiace che (forse) dovrai aspettare;
you can use subjunctive imperfect (dovessi aspettare) only to indicate contemporaneity with a past tense in the main clause:
mi dispiaceva che tu dovessi aspettare.
I hope it helps...


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## mateintwo

Thanks. It makes sense now. Another rule to remember. I guess the English language is a little freer when it comes to mixing tenses.


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## TrentinaNE

Necsus said:


> I'm sorry for crosses, Elisabetta.


Non c'è problema, Necsus.  Sono qui per imparare anch'io.  



> Mi dispiace che forse dovrai aspettare
> Here the subjunctive is not expression of uncertainty, it is simply required by "mi dispiace", as a verb that express feelings (like piacere, seccare, stupire, meravigliare, etc.).


Qui mi confondo un po' perche' non hai usato il congiuntivo ma l'indicativo condizionale.  Non ho capito questa regola prima: dici che quando l'azione della "che" frase sia incerto ("forse..."), il congiuntivo non è necessario?

Grazie di nuovo.

Elisabetta


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## lsp

Elisabetta, it's the future (you're questioning dovrai, right?) which fox also suggested.

Mate, dovessi is not a simple had, it's a subjunctive had.


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## Panpan

Please can I check if I now understand this?  If I want to use the subjunctive to express uncertainty over whether all of you will wait or not, I would say 'Bisogna che aspettiate'.
Thanks
Panpan


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## mateintwo

Mate, dovessi is not a simple had, it's a subjunctive had.

But in English they are the same but even so I never concerned myself about this.


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## lsp

mateintwo said:


> Mate, dovessi is not a simple had, it's a subjunctive had.
> 
> But in English they are the same but even so I never concerned myself about this.


 I know, that's exactly what I meant!


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## TrentinaNE

lsp said:


> Elisabetta, it's the future (you're questioning dovrai, right?) which fox also suggested.


Of course -- scusami!  So...

Mi dispiace che dovrai aspettare:  I'm sorry you will have to wait.
Mi dispiace che forse dovrai aspettare: I'm sorry you may have to wait.

Va bene?

Elisabetta


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## mateintwo

lsp said:


> I know, that's exactly what I meant!


 
Well I am not smart enough so can you please stop talking in riddles.

Also if we change *I'm sorry you had to wait* to *I'm sorry he was forced to wait* (to highlight if it is subjunctive tense in English)
How would you say it in Italian?

And while you at it here are two more phrases:

I hope (in this moment) that you went to the Doctor this morning

I now think that you were wrong when you argued with your wife.


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## Panpan

mateintwo said:


> Also if we change *I'm sorry you had to wait* to *I'm sorry he was forced to wait* (to highlight if it is subjunctive tense in English)


Using the subjunctive in English the sentance would be 
...it is necessary that he wait (and not 'that he waits')

Using the past subjunctive in English the sentance would be 
...it was necessary that he waited.

Hope that helps
Panpan


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## mateintwo

Hope that helps
Panpan[/quote]

Thanks. ISP’s cryptic messages made me start thinking and checking on the web.
While using the subjunctive is becoming more optional than in the past I was surprised to learn that it seems to be more common in American English and to be reminded that 
A hallmark of the subjunctive is that tenses are often mixed. Source: http://www.ceafinney.com/subjunctive/guide.html

But soon it will not matter if the wish of William Somerset Maugham come true*: *"_The subjunctive mood is in its death throes, and the best thing to do is to put it out of its misery as soon as possible"._


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## Necsus

TrentinaNE said:
			
		

> Qui mi confondo un po' perché non hai usato il congiuntivo ma l'indicativo futuro. Non ho capito questa regola prima: dici che quando l'azione della "che" frase subordinata è incerta ("forse...") il congiuntivo non è necessario?


No, volevo dire che nella frase subordinata dell'esempio il congiuntivo non serve a trasmettere incertezza, ma semplicemente è richiesto da 'dispiacere', verbo che esprime un moto dell'animo. Nel terzo esempio c'è il futuro perché l'aveva proposto fox, comunque l'indicativo futuro molto spesso può sostituire il congiuntivo presente.


			
				TrentinaNE said:
			
		

> Mi dispiace che dovrai aspettare: I'm sorry you will have to wait.
> Mi dispiace che forse dovrai aspettare: I'm sorry you may have to wait.
> Va bene?


Direi di sì (ma l'inglese non è di mia competenza)  


			
				mateintwo said:
			
		

> Also if we change *I'm sorry you had to wait* to *I'm sorry he was forced to wait* (to highlight if it is subjunctive tense in English)
> How would you say it in Italian?
> "Mi dispiace che lui sia stato obbligato ad aspettare".
> And while you at it here are two more phrases:
> I hope (in this moment) that you went to the Doctor this morning
> "Spero che stamattina tu sia andato dal medico".
> I now think that you were wrong when you argued with your wife.
> "Adesso penso che tu abbia sbagliato a discutere (/quando hai discusso) con tua moglie".


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## Panpan

mateintwo said:


> Thanks. ISP’s cryptic messages made me start thinking and checking on the web.
> While using the subjunctive is becoming more optional than in the past I was surprised to learn that it seems to be more common in American English


 
Possibly, because there is a wider range of cultural ancestries in America than in England, (in the last hundred years or so I mean) many of whom used subjunctives in their original languages.  

For example 'Do you *want that I freeze* to death out here?' sounds natural spoken with a Jewish accent, whereas most other English people would use the alternative 'do you *want me to freeze* to death out here?'.

Panpan


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## lsp

lsp said:
			
		

> I know, that's exactly what I meant!





mateintwo said:


> Well I am not smart enough so can you please stop talking in riddles.
> ...





mateintwo said:


> LSP’s cryptic messages ...


At first I thought you were kidding, but please tell me what is so puzzling about my agreeing with you? Were these words so enigmatic: "That's exactly what I meant" ??


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## mateintwo

Quando tu hai scritto : “Mate, dovessi is not a simple had, it's a subjunctive had.”
Io ho pensato di aver sbagliato usando il congiuntivo Inglese correttamente. Tutto qui.


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