# בבית



## nomadreid

I am at the elementary stage of Hebrew learning. I was told that the second ב in בבית or בבנין  would be pronounced B or V (that it, receive or not a dagesh) according to whether it was definite (V) or indefinite (B); that is, whether the article ה would have been put with the word ( בית or בנין ) without the first ב, or if there is a ה in its partner in a סמיכות . But I am not sure whether I got this explanation right. Could someone put this in clear terms?


----------



## ks20495

Your explanation is correct. The grammatical reason behind is a little too complicated for your level...But, just know that making the word definite puts a "dagesh" in the "vet."


----------



## شيري

If I understood correctly, then nomadreid, your explanation was inverted, while ks20495 agreed with you while saying the opposite of what you did, which is correct. To make it clearer, if there's a definite article before the word, then there's a dagesh (B sound). If the article is indefinite, it should be pronounced as V. Same goes for פ and כ.
The simplistic and incomplete explanation is that ב,כ,פ are pronounced as B, K, P in the beginning of the word only because it's the beginning of the word. Therefore, once you add an article beforehand, they're no longer at the beginning of the word and you can pronounce them without the dagesh. Yet if there's a definite article, then they get a dagesh, and therefore they have to be pronounced with a dagesh. That is, in each case they get a dagesh for a different reason, but with an indefinite article, neither reason applies.


----------



## nomadreid

Thank you for your replies, ks20495 and  				 				 					 						 	شيري. (Sherry?) As far as I can understand it, though, ks20495 agreed with my proposed explanation with the סמיכות and added a bit of extra information about the general case of being definite, whereas   				 				 					 						 	شيري  is thinking of the straightforward case of the definite article without the occurrence of סמיכות. (By the way, I am not sure that the absence of the definite article ה can be termed an "indefinite article", which, I believe, would be a separate word or prefix for the indefinite case. But I am open to correction.)


----------



## origumi

شيري said:


> Same goes for פ and כ.


Historically also ג ,ד,ת, but the latter lost their different realization whether aspirated or not. A language student should remember the "beged-kefet" (or beghedh-kepheth) rule name.


nomadreid said:


> As far as I can understand it, though, ks20495 agreed with my proposed explanation with the סמיכות


construct state (סמיכות) is not directly related to the dagesh. If there's a definite article ה (or any of its compounds), the next consonant gets a dagesh.


----------



## nomadreid

Thanks, origumi. Yes, the historical connection is always mentioned in Hebrew classes. However, I think that many teachers have lost sight of the main goal of most beginners, and that is to be able to learn the modern language, even if it is sloppy by historical standards. A beginner, learning the alphabet, sees that there are alternative forms for the three letters, and that is all that he/she wishes to deal with at that stage of the game. Let me make an analogy: when I teach mathematics, I do not teach school children the notation that was used centuries ago but have become replaced by other symbols today. 
Nonetheless, I am grateful for the input.


----------



## شيري

I have to admit that I don't remember the grammatical rules, but as a native speaker, I don't think that סמיכות matters here. The ב in both בית ספר and בית הספר would be pronounced as B because it's the first letter of the word, and the second ב in בבית-הספר would be pronounced as V even though it's a definite סמיכות because it's no longer the first letter. As this case also shows, it's not just about whether the term is definite (since it is in the example), but really depends on whether the ה precedes the first letter (ה that could appear in the form of ב,ל etc. that are the result of ב+ה, ל+ה etc.).


----------



## nomadreid

> construct state (סמיכות) is not directly related to the dagesh.


Are you saying that the ב in בית is pronounced the same in both בבית ספר and בבית הספר? I thought they were "baveit sefer" and babeit ha-sefer", respectively. Um, it looks like I still don't have the hang of it. So, could you tell me the pronunciation, by using such (linguistically unpure) a transliteration rather than using the terms of "dagesh", of the two variants, בבית ספר and בבית הספר  ? Thanks.


----------



## ks20495

In the construct state (סמיכות), the second word receives the definite article (ה). So, "the school" is "בית הספר". Therefore, "in the school" is "בְּבֵית הספר". Even though logically the entire word is definite, in formal Hebrew grammar, we put the "dagesh" in the "vet" when it directly follows a definite article that has been 'swallowed.'


----------



## شيري

Noamdreid, no, that was not what I was trying to say. I said that smikhut doesn't matter because you can have cases like beit-sefer and beit-hasefer, where it is pronounced as a B, because it's the first letter of the word, but you will say beveit-hasefer, pronouncing the second beit as a veit when there's a beit before it. So, the letter can have either a veit or a beit sound in smikhut - the smikhut doesn't make a difference. Beveit-hasfer also shows that definiteness per se doesn't matter, since it is definite yet the letter is pronounced as veit. What matters is whether the definite article appeared before the beit/veit (as ha, or as ba or la). This makes the letter sound like a beit sound.
Not to confuse you even more, but I think that a similar process happens with 2 additional cases, מ and ש. So, if I'm not mistaken, I would said mebeit-hasefer. These three letters are called משה letters. They lead to the appearance of a dagesh after them.


----------



## nomadreid

Thank you again, ks20495 and شيري . This forum is a marvel.  I think I am starting to understand. I will of course be back with other prononciation issues. And I will leave the cases for מ and ש for now, since the dagesh apparently is irrelevant for modern prononciation for these letters. Or is there some other consequence?


----------



## شيري

מ and  ש are no less relevant than ה. The point is that in their use as an article, the letter AFTER them (=the first letter of the word) gets a dagesh, as in the example I gave: mebeit-hasefer. The beit is pronounced as a B despite not being the first letter of the word. same thing happens in shebeit-hasefer.


----------

