# go dutch [Dutch]



## forbiddenlady

"let's go dutch"

what that does phrase mean?


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## GenJen54

Going dutch, or "dutch treat" is the idea that you "split the bill," instead of one person paying for the entire bill. 

For example:  If a friend and I go out to eat, we might "go dutch," meaning we may each pay for our individual portion of the bill.

I consider "going dutch" in either of the following scenarios: 

Bill is $30.  Friend and I each "chip in" $15 towards the total bill. 

Bill is $30.  Friend pays $18.35, because she had another glass of wine.  I pay $11.65 because I only had one glass of wine. 

Either way, I consider this, "going dutch."


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## julienne

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> Bill is $30. Friend and I each "chip in" $15 towards the total bill.
> 
> Bill is $30. Friend pays $18.35, because she had another glass of wine. I pay $11.65 because I only had one glass of wine.
> 
> Either way, I consider this, "going dutch."


 
Wat if...
scenario:
I called friend, I wanted to treat her for lunch. she had the same thing in mind at the same time, I just reached her first... we agreed to go to restaurant, bill $30.  I pay friend's $18.35, she pays my $11.65...

Would this also be called dutch? its a treat, right?


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## daviesri

To me, "going dutch/dutch treat" is a term usually used when a man takes a woman on a date and they split the bill instead of the man paying the complete tab.  Usually was not viewed as a positive thing because it usually implied that the guy was to cheap to pay for his date.  I have always seen it as a dating term.  

If I go out with friends it is assumed everyone is paying their own tab.

I found this origin at wordorigins.org

*Dutch Treat*

This is one of several derisive terms referring to the Dutch. _Dutch treat_ is an Americanism dating to the 1880s. It refers to the supposed Dutch trait of being miserly. The adverbial form _go Dutch_ dates to 1914.


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## GenJen54

> Originally posted by *julienne*
> Wat if...
> scenario:
> I called friend, I wanted to treat her for lunch. she had the same thing in mind at the same time, I just reached her first... we agreed to go to restaurant, bill $30. I pay friend's $18.35, she pays my $11.65...


 
Hmmmm. Not sure I've ever experienced this scenario. I don't know I would call it a treat. Usually, in an instance like this, I will "treat" my friend to lunch by paying for the entire tab (including my lunch) this time.  The next time we get together, she returns the favor of picking up the tab and "treats" me.


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## Gordonedi

julienne said:
			
		

> What if...
> scenario:
> I called friend, I wanted to treat her for lunch. she had the same thing in mind at the same time, I just reached her first... we agreed to go to restaurant, bill $30.  I pay friend's $18.35, she pays my $11.65...
> 
> would this also be called dutch? its a treat, right?


Hmmm... I see where you're coming from, and whilst this is an interesting sharing arrangement, I wouldn't classify it as "going Dutch", which has to my mind a sense of paying one's own way.

If that's how you normally pay, and you don't have a large appetite, you and I can have lunch any time


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## foxfirebrand

I agree with Daviesri that the expression used to apply to dating, and not friends.  Also that it was a little derogatory-- but it didn't always reflect on the guy being cheap.  It might just be he regarded the young lady in a less than romantic way-- or more commonly, that she was a little "forward."  A dutch-treat arrangement was a little like a prenup, it usually got decided on beforehand, and when a couple out on a date was seen splitting the tab, it was fodder for speculation.

That's where the part about being "forward" comes in.  If a girl asked a boy, she was contravening a convention that was, slightly before my time, a fairly strong taboo.  I think the flappers of the 20s made it okay for the girl, or certain girls, to ask-- or to be the one to initiate a phone call, whether about dating or anything else.  Yes!  Nice girls waited for _him_ to call.

So if the girl asked, she by implication absolved him from the other convention, and commonly added "we'll go dutch" as an enticement.  If the guy had some intention of asking her himself, but she beat him to the punch because he was too shy, he might then say "not on your life"-- to show both his gallantry and his regard for her in particular.  It was all so complicated back then.

I was in my mid-20s prime when the 70s dawned and feminism ("women's lib") became the new convention.  A man could easily get glared at for displaying outmoded courtesies-- opening a door, holding a chair, standing when a lady entered the room or approached your table.  It was a "generation gap" thing.  

At any rate, when you went to dinner or a movie in the company of a liberated woman, the stigma about paying separately no longer applied.  I suppose it's just a step further to come full cycle, and apply "dutch treat" to just-friends situations, or co-worker or even some business lunches.

Finally, I would guess the Dutch-bashing usage goes back far before 1880s, even if the dictionary doesn't show it.  It's a habit of early British New Yorkers in referring to the original New Amsterdamers among them-- the "old money" crowd which they both condescended to and envied.

"Dutch courage" is another such pejorative term, synonymous with "bottle courage" or "pot valor."  Another is "Dutch uncle."


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## julienne

thanks Gen =)
I just wanted to ask how you guys would call it, as it happened to me just last week, with someone I haven't seen personally in quite a while... not a restautant, though, just a fast food chain heheheh  

ps: we actually had the exact same thing...  hehehe


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## Brioche

For me "Dutch treat" or "going Dutch" is when each person pays for his or her own consumption.  No sharing of costs at all.


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## ALOV

Hello,

What about the origin of this expression? Does it refer to the fact Dutch people are considered to be no big spenders?
In fact that's the reputation we have, here in Belgium, about our neighbours. All jokes we make about them refer to greed... one of those stereotypes ; ) hi neighbours!


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## foxfirebrand

ALOV said:
			
		

> What about the origin of this expression?


 
Why don't you check the rest of the thread?  Post #8 for example.

.


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## daviesri

Dutch Treat

This is one of several derisive terms referring to the Dutch. Dutch treat is an Americanism dating to the 1880s. It refers to the supposed Dutch trait of being miserly. The adverbial form go Dutch dates to 1914.


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## CBFelix

ALOV said:
			
		

> Hello,
> 
> What about the origin of this expression? Does it refer to the fact Dutch people are considered to be no big spenders?
> In fact that's the reputation we have, here in Belgium, about our neighbours. All jokes we make about them refer to greed... one of those stereotypes ; ) hi neighbours!



Why does it call ‘Dutch  treat” anyway? Why not “German” or “Swedish” .. 

I know...   

Once, I had a friend who has a Dutch boyfriend. This Dutch boyfriend calculated every penny he spent. He never ever took her a nice dinner and pay himself even he could easily afforded. At the end, when they broke up, because my friend could not cope with his behavior about money issues any more, 'Dutch boyfriend' demanded 57.50 Euro or so, that he claimed to spend more on her. 

She asked whether all Dutch mans are the same, We said ‘No.. He is just an ass…’  But he was Dutch… I just remembered..


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## ALOV

foxfirebrand said:
			
		

> Why don't you check the rest of the thread? Post #8 for example.
> 
> .


 
I must have skipped your explication.
interesting story, especially cause the origin is quite far away and the idea still remains in the expressions and stereotypes both in usa and europe.


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## Isotta

I was unaware of the past forward female aspect. I think now it is just the opposite--I would only say "Dutch treat" if I wanted to signal my decided preference for a platonic relationship to someone who is evidently interested in me. 

Z.


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## daviesri

ALOV said:
			
		

> I must have skipped your explication.
> interesting story, especially cause the origin is quite far away and the idea still remains in the expressions and stereotypes both in usa and europe.


 
If not for http://www.wordorigins.org I would have had no understanding of the origin of 'dutch treat'.  I had no idea that the Dutch were seen as miserly.  I would guess that most people in the US are familiar with the term 'go dutch/dutch treat' but I would guess that less 1% would know why it is called what it is called.


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## foxfirebrand

Isotta said:
			
		

> I was unaware of the past forward female aspect. I think now it is just the opposite--I would only say "Dutch treat" if I wanted to signal my decided preference for a platonic relationship to someone who is evidently interested in me. Z.


 
I agree. That's what I was getting at with this part of the post:



> I was in my mid-20s prime when the 70s dawned and feminism ("women's lib") became the new convention. A man could easily get glared at for displaying outmoded courtesies-- opening a door, holding a chair, standing when a lady entered the room or approached your table. It was a "generation gap" thing.
> 
> At any rate, when you went to dinner or a movie in the company of a liberated woman, the stigma about paying separately no longer applied. I suppose it's just a step further to come full cycle, and apply "dutch treat" to just-friends situations, or co-worker or even some business lunches.


I suppose instead of the cycle coming full, the tables could be said to have turned. It's been a wrenching change from my middle-school years (a term that didn't exist then) when it was still thought improper for girls to even phone boys.  Now it's the boys who can get in trouble for coming on strong.

The question of "Dutch" parsimony only naturally came up, and I see it's being treated as a stereotype, with the negative vibe that that word carries. As it happens my father exemplified "Dutch" traits almost to a fault, and his ethnicity was half Frisian, half Hessian. The whole family is/was like that, and their frugality is exceeded only by their tendency to workaholism. Add a hearty joy in food and drink and you have a formula for a population of fat wealthy Dutchman, as far as the eye can see-- and we tend to settle in farmland as flat as it was in the old country, so that's pretty far.

I believe there is such a thing as a "collective personality" in most ethnic groups-- supposedly a touchy subject, but I think that's largely because Americans have lost their "roots" in a sense. These "stereotypic" traits come from being part of a culturally homogenous community, where kids are raised according to a paradigm common to the group as a whole. Most of us have parentage deriving from at least four such paradigms-- if you don't have four grandparents of differing ethnic stripe these days, or at least that many from among the eight great-grandparents, you're kind of unusual. That makes for the current-day defensiveness about ethnicity, its almost like a family squabble that goes on within each individual-- and is then mirrored in the incoherent megaculture at large.

Two schools of thought about how to evolve-- assimilate or balkanize. Is the U.S. a marble cake or a crazy quilt?

.


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## Chazzwozzer

"I testified that the Dutch actually never go dutch!"

Does this usage of the expression here, possibly in a humorous way, sound good to native ears?


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## nichec

I once went out with a Canadian guy. After the dinner, I said: Hey, let's go dutch. And the guy actually told me that he had never came across that phrase before.....At that time, I thought I made a mistake since he was the native-speaker, not me.

Can anyone from Canada confirm this please? Is this sentence used in Canada at all?


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## chesty

Chazzwozzer said:


> "I testified that the Dutch actually never go dutch!"
> 
> Does this usage of the expression here, possibly in a humorous way, sound good to native ears?



Hello. In my opinion...

"I testified that the Dutch never actually go Dutch." sounds better. I hope that you understand that one generally testifies in a court of law.


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## Chazzwozzer

chesty said:


> Hello. In my opinion...
> 
> "I testified that the Dutch never actually go Dutch." sounds better. I hope that you understand that one generally testifies in a court of law.



I suppose "justify" would mean the same here(?) What verb would you recommend that I use instead?

By the way, is "*D*utch" in "go dutch" capitilized?


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## PaulQ

Yes, it is, or at least, should be.


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## SoLaTiDoberman

After 14 years from the first post of this thread,
do you still use the expression, "go Dutch," "Dutch treat" or "Dutch uncle," today in the era of the political correctness? 
I'm just curious.


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## DonnyB

SoLaTiDoberman said:


> After 14 years from the first post of this thread,
> do you still use the expression, "go Dutch," "Dutch treat" or "Dutch uncle," today in the era of the political correctness?
> I'm just curious.


The phrase *Go Dutch* is still listed in Oxford Dictionaries: 
[informal]  _Share the cost of something, especially a meal, equally._

They don't give any indication that it's dated, but I must admit I haven't heard anyone use it in quite a while.


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## SoLaTiDoberman

Thank you, *DonnyB*.


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## Keith Bradford

The phrase _Dutch treat_ is first recorded around 1773, though it may well have been in such contexts as _how do the Dutch treat their prisoners?_  It then faded from view for most of the 19th century and re-emerged alongside _Dutch uncle_ in the 1940s.  To _go Dutch_ is about a century old and grows ever more popular.

Today all three phrases are equally common.  Source: Google Ngram Viewer.


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## natkretep

My impression is that these expressions have become fossilised, and are seldom analysed, and therefore expressions involving _Dutch_ or _French_ persist. I can imagine saying 'going Dutch' myself. And I'd have no qualms about saying something was double Dutch (in the BrE sense). (And my next-door neighbours are Dutch!)


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## SoLaTiDoberman

In Japan, the place where the prostitution takes place used to be called, "_Turkish Bath_." Several decades ago, the Turkish government or ambassador officially complained about it to Japan, and the name has completely changed to "_Soap Land_" after that. In Japan, a sex doll used to be called "_Dutch Wife_" but it has changed to be called "_Love Doll_" or something now. The terms were regarded as offensive and rude to Turkish people or Dutch people.

Likewise, I thought "_go Dutch_," "_double Dutch_" and "_Dutch uncle_" might be offensive and rude to people from Netherlands. Especially when we should think of the political correctness today. (Or I had better to say "recently" or "a few years ago", before Trump time.)

So, *natkretep*, at least you wouldn't use these expressions to your next-door neighbors *in person *when they understand English, would you? 

Thank you, everyone, for your input!
And I'm surprised to see "go Dutch" was becoming to be used more frequently on the chart until 2000, thanks to* Keith Bradford*. But it seems to decline a little after that. The information after 2008 is not available, though.


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## Uncle Jack

I agree with others that "go Dutch" is still reasonably common in BrE, and I cannot think of another short phrase I would use instead ("Shall we each pay for ourselves?" is a lot more cumbersome than "Shall we go Dutch?"). Since the term is used for a purely practical arrangement and carries no moral overtones, I don't see why it should be thought offensive to the Dutch.

I haven't come across Dutch uncle in a very long time, but I would not have thought the usage (as I understand it) to be offensive either.

Dutch courage, on the other hand, could easily be regarded as being a slur on the national character. This, too, is still used in BrE, although I cannot say that I have ever given it any thought as not being politically correct.


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## natkretep

I agree with Uncle Jack in that the expressions mentioned involving _Dutch_ in English don't feel offensive to me. I will happily say 'go Dutch' to my Dutch neighbours if I need to. I think they are fairly fluent in English and would also be familiar with 'double Dutch' and 'Dutch courage' as English expressions.

As I said, the expressions are usually not analysed. I will also add that they are rather different from the Japanese expressions you mentioned as those involve sex and prostitution. We have the expression 'Dutch wife' too in English, but it refers to a long pillow that you hug.


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## SoLaTiDoberman

Thank you, *Uncle Jack *and *natkretep.*
I learned to say, "let's split the check (bill)" as well as "let's go Dutch."
And I would use the former one myself.


It's interesting to know the cultural difference.
Perhaps in Western countries, "splitting the bill" or "each pay for ourselves" would be a reasonable choice.
In Japan, however, it may have a negative connotation of "skinflint" or "tightfisted," whereas, treating somebody is regarded as "generous" which has a positive connotation.
Therefore, if the idiom "going Dutch" had been defined as "going Jap," Japanese people would have thought it was unfair to be called so.
So did Dutch, I thought. But I understand that Dutch people don't care about it.

I know that the terms regarding to the prostitution or sex mentioned above are out of the question and completely different things from "going Dutch."
But I would be still uncomfortable to be called something resembling "skinflint"  if I were Dutch, in the way of Japanese thinking.

Thank you!


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## Tegs

I think the reason this is not seen as offensive is that splitting the bill is generally not seen as an negative thing, except for some women on dates, and in these times of equal opportunities it is seen as a bit money-grabbing to be offended by it. Dutch courage is more negative, I had not considered that one. As someone with a Welsh background, I find the verb “to welsh” offensive, and that is because it has a negative meaning.


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## SoLaTiDoberman

Thank you, *Tegs*, for your input.


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## PaulQ

SoLaTiDoberman said:


> In Japan, a sex doll used to be called "_Dutch Wife_"


In English, although now obsolete, a "Dutch wife" was a bolster pillow: a long pillow that was placed underneath the separate pillows.

The epithet "Dutch" arose during the 17th and 18th centuries when England was at war with the Dutch. There were hundreds of jokes about the Dutch who were characterised as stupid - A Dutch X meant something that (i) was supposed to behave like an X (ii) the Dutch considered to be an X but (iii) clearly was not [an] X because it lacked the primary attribute.

Thus a Dutch treat was not a treat at all but the Dutch, because they are stupid, thought it was.

Picking nationalities to be the butt of jokes has a long history: in the last century the Irish were categorised by the British in this way, and the Irish used people from the county of Kerry; the Poles were used by the Americans, and the Swedes by all the other Scandinavians - the list goes on.


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## You little ripper!

I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone say, “Let’s go Dutch” - it has always been “Let’s split the bill”. The only reason I know the expression is because I’ve read it.


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## Tegs

You little ripper! said:


> I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone say, “Let’s go Dutch” - it has always been “Let’s split the bill”.



I don't know anyone who uses it either. We would say the same as you - "let's split the bill", or more often probably "shall we spilt it?"


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## kentix

I think in the U.S. we would generally talk about splitting the bill, also. Go Dutch seems old-fashioned to me and most of the times I have ever seen it used it was relating to dating and restricted mostly to that special usage. For instance, in a comedy movie a woman would say she had a terrible date and that she insisted on going Dutch. She paid her own bill so she could leave and never see the man again.


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## SoLaTiDoberman

Thank you, *kentix*, for sharing the American English information.
So very roughly speaking, you yourself may think that the special usage has a *negative* image, don't you? 

By the way, I thought in the US, people tended to use "splitting the _*check*._" Besides, "splitting the _*bill*_" was mostly used in the UK and Australian English.
Thanks again.


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## kentix

Maybe they do "tend to" use that, but either one would be fine.

I don't think it has a negative image by definition, but in a dating situation, especially in an old movie before certain cultural changes have happened, if a man wanted to go Dutch on a date it would be a very bad thing. He would be considered a loser.

If it was between two friends it wouldn't have that connotation at all.


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## SoLaTiDoberman

Yeah, I got your point.
And it's exactly what I wanted to ask members here again and posted #23.

When "go Dutch" was not an obsolete expression, a man should treat her at their dating.
It was when men and women were not regarded equally. Women were weaker economically as well, so men should treat them when they were dating.
In that situation, if a man wanted to go Dutch on a date, he would have been thought as "skinflint" or "not generous."
In that time "splitting the bill" itself had a bad connotation, and people described it as "go Dutch" or "go in the way Dutch people tend to do."
It seems a stereotypical prejudice against a people. from the viewpoint of so called "the political correctness."
So I posted #23.

Now it's the time when men and women are regarded as equal, at least as far as possible.
Therefore, major women may not want to be treated by men when dating now.
As a result, "splitting the bill" hasn't had a bad connotation at all now.

This was my assumption, but it was denied by many members here.
They don't think that "going Dutch" is a kind of discrimination against Dutch people.
Or first of all, they don't care about it.

I now know that, and it's okay for me.

I won't use "going Dutch" myself anyway. 
I was just curious about that idiom.

Thank you all,
have a nice day!


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## kentix

I would repeat that it's not the phrase that has a negative connotation. It's the situation the phrase is used in.

I'll pay for mine and you pay for yours would be just as a bad in that dating situation. It's the intention that counts, not the phrase itself.

"You crazy bastard!"

You say that to a friend and it has one meaning. You say it to an enemy and it has a completely different meaning. Context is everything.


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## Hermione Golightly

I'm writing about a specific meaning of 'double Dutch' and I think it has to do most with how this sort of expression isn't analysed these days, whatever the original connotations were.
'Double Dutch' usually means speaking incomprehensibly. "You're talking double dutch!" I suppose this goes back to the late 17th century when the Dutch William of Orange became king of England.
But why should a form of street skipping be known as 'double dutch'? This was one of my favourite childhood games, played with two very long and heavy ropes, right across the street, being turned in opposing directions.


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## natkretep

You might find this page of interest:
https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/double-dutch.html


> High Dutch was the language of southern Germany and Low Dutch the language of The Netherlands.
> 
> Double Dutch is in fact a synonym for High Dutch and as such is a slur on the Germans rather than the Dutch, although the distinction may not have been apparent to the average 18th century English sailor.


The skipping game referred to is linked to this expression:


> Sailors called anti-clockwise winding 'coiling against the sun'. This was generally disparaged and an indication that 'double Dutch' was the linguistic equivalent of a badly coiled rope. Most of the early citations of 'double Dutch' are in their full form 'double Dutch coiled against the sun'.


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## kentix

Hermione Golightly said:


> But why should a form of street skipping be known as 'double dutch'?


That's the only usage of double dutch I've ever heard.


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## SoLaTiDoberman

Thank you,* kentix.  *(edit: @#41)
I thought the expression had a negative connotation in the past, but not now.
I've learned from all of you that the expression doesn't have a negative connotation at all.
Yes.
I got it.
Thanks!

@#42:
Thank you, *Hermione Golightly, *for your interesting information!
Yet, maybe we should open a new thread about "double Dutch" when we discuss that expression any further.


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## Edinburgher

kentix said:


> That's the only usage of double dutch I've ever heard.


Funny, isn't it?  It's the other way round for me.  I had never heard of the skipping game, but am familiar with the _talking incomprehensibly_ meaning.


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