# numbers



## hadronic

Hello,

Can someone tell me if I got it right ? It's all about definite, undefinite form, smikhut etc. I hardly manage to get something clear in the materials I use.

three houses : שלושה בתים shlosha battim
the three houses : שלושת הבתים shloshet ha-battim
three schools : שלושת בתי ספר shloshet battei sefer
the three schools : שלושת בתי הספר shloshet battei ha-sefer

one of the houses : אחד הבתים ekhad ha-battim
three of the houses : שלושת הבתים ?? (but this already means "the three houses"...)


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## origumi

hadronic said:


> three houses : שלושה בתים shlosha battim
> the three houses : שלושת הבתים shloshet ha-battim
> three schools : שלושה בתי ספר shlosha battei sefer
> the three schools : שלושת בתי הספר shloshet battei ha-sefer
> 
> one of the houses : אחד הבתים akhad ha-battim [or אחד מהבתים ekhad me-ha-battim]
> three of the houses : שלושה מהבתים ?? (but this already means "the three houses"...)


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## hadronic

About "three schools -- שלושה בתי ספר" :

I've got here an example where "three quarters of litre" is translated by :
שלושת רבעי ליטר shloshet riv'ei liter.

As far as I understand the situation, the two phrases "three quarters of liter" and "three houses of book" are strictly parallel (and none of them is definite with the ה article), and thus, should be translated the same way by "shloshet + N1<pl:construct> + N2<sg:abs>".  That is, שלושת בתי ספר  and not שלשה בתי ספר.

Where is my error ?


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## origumi

hadronic said:


> As far as I understand the situation, the two phrases "three quarters of liter" and "three houses of book" are strictly parallel (and none of them is definite with the ה article), and thus, should be translated the same way by "shloshet + N1<pl:construct> + N2<sg:abs>". That is, שלושת בתי ספר and not שלשה בתי ספר.


As you correctly noted, fractions (חצי, רבע, שלושה רבעים and all other) are used in construct state: שני *חצאי* זיתים בתוך הבית אין הבית מצטרף בתוך הכלי הכלי מצטרף (Yerushalmi, Psakhim 36:1). Whole numbers (אחד, שניים, שלושה and all other), in contrary, are used as-is, not in construct state: על *שלושה* פשעי דמשק ועל ארבעה לא אשיבנו (Amos 1:3).

The examples are from the Bible / Gmara yet this is the situation in modern Hebrew.

---

Correction: the example of שני חצאי demonstrates that שניים is an exception to the whole number rule and used in construct state:

איש אחד, *שני* אנשים, שלושה אנשים, ארבעה אנשים, עשרים אנשים, עשרים ושניים אנשים.

In the Bible you can find also שניים אנשים (e.g. 1 Kings 21:10) but not in modern Hebrew.


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## amikama

hadronic said:


> I've got here an example where "three quarters of litre" is translated by :
> שלושת רבעי ליטר shloshet riv'ei liter.


The correct form is actually שלושה רבעי ליטר, but apparently 90% of the native speakers always say שלושת רבעי, no matter whether the construct form is definite or not (at least this is my personal impression). 

 "*The *three quarters of liter" = שלוש*ת* רבעי *ה*ליטר.


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## origumi

Lol, it's even worse. For most people the number 3/4 (when standalone) is called שלושתרבה shloshterve.


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## hadronic

origumi said:


> As you correctly noted, fractions (חצי, רבע, שלושה רבעים and all other) are used in construct state: שני *חצאי* זיתים בתוך הבית אין הבית מצטרף בתוך הכלי הכלי מצטרף


 
This is a bad example : the question is not to know wheter "half" or "quarter" gets the construct state, but whether the number before it("three", or "two" in your example) is in the construct state when the whole nominal group is undefine.
But unfortunately, שניים is always in the construct state, regardless of the definiteness of the nominal group (that's why I used "three" in my examples).

So you both confirm it's שלושה רבעי ליטר shlosha riv'ei liter ?

But I notice that for 300,.... and 3000,... the number is in the construct state, regardless of the definiteness of the noun : שלוש מאות, שלושת אלפיםshlosh me'ot, shloshet alafim. 
Wouldn't this point toward שלושת רבעי ליטר shloshet riv'ei liter ? That is, before other number-like words (me'ah, elef, reva...), the number always gets the construct state, even when undefine ?


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## origumi

hadronic said:


> This is a bad example : the question is not to know wheter "half" or "quarter" gets the construct state, but whether the number before it("three", or "two" in your example) is in the construct state when the whole nominal group is undefine.
> But unfortunately, שניים is always in the construct state, regardless of the definiteness of the nominal group (that's why I used "three" in my examples).


I think that the example is good, only the wrong word was in bold. שני is construct vs. שניים which is not construct state.

See there the example of שני אנשים and שניים אנשים.


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## hadronic

But still, it's not that good an example, because construct-form שני in undefinite nominal group is massively allowed (and grammatical), so it don't show what it would give for three to ten.


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## amikama

hadronic said:


> But I notice that for 300,.... and 3000,... the number is in the construct state, regardless of the definiteness of the noun : שלוש מאות, שלושת אלפיםshlosh me'ot, shloshet alafim.
> Wouldn't this point toward שלושת רבעי ליטר shloshet riv'ei liter ? That is, before other number-like words (me'ah, elef, reva...), the number always gets the construct state, even when undefine ?


No, not always. Only before מאות and אלפים the number comes in צורת הנסמך regardless of the definiteness. Not before fractions.


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## sawyeric1

In English, it's preferred that numbers one through ten are spelled out, and then other numbers can be written with numerals. Are there any equivalent official preferences for how to write numbers in Hebrew?


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## Drink

sawyeric1 said:


> In English, it's preferred that numbers one through ten are spelled out,



Actually the rule in English is that if the number is one word (not including the word "hundred", "million", "billion", etc.), then you spell it out. For example, "thirteen", "seventy", "three hundred", "seventeen million", but "23 million".


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## shalom00

Actually, it is not a rule. It is a style, and there are different styles. It also depends on context.
For example, the latest version of the Chicago Manual of Style has these section headings (I don't have the actual contents):


Numerals versus Words
General Principles
9.2Chicago’s general rule—zero through one hundred
9.3An alternative rule—zero through nine
9.4Hundreds, thousands, and hundred thousands
9.5Number beginning a sentence
9.6Ordinals
9.7Consistency and flexibility

Large Numbers
9.8Millions, billions, and so forth
9.9Powers of ten
9.10“Mega-,” “giga-,” “tera-,” and so forth
9.11Binary systems
9.12Use of “dex”

Physical Quantities
9.13Physical quantities in general contexts
9.14Simple fractions
9.15Whole numbers plus fractions
9.16Abbreviations and symbols
9.17Units for repeated quantities

Percentages and Decimal Fractions
9.18Percentages
9.19Decimal fractions and use of the zero
9.20Decimal places—European practice

Money
9.21Words versus monetary symbols and numerals
9.22Non-US currencies using the dollar symbol
9.23British currency
9.24Other currencies
9.25Large monetary amounts
9.26Currency with dates

Numbered Divisions in Publications and Other Documents
9.27Page numbers, chapter numbers, and so forth
9.28Volume, issue, and page numbers for periodicals
9.29Numbered divisions in legal instruments

Dates
9.30The year alone
9.31The year abbreviated
9.32Month and day
9.33Centuries
9.34Decades
9.35Eras
9.36All-numeral dates and other brief forms
9.37ISO style for dates

Time of Day
9.38Numerals versus words for time of day
9.39Noon and midnight
9.40The twenty-four-hour system
9.41Seconds and dates included

Numbers with Proper Names and Titles
9.42Numerals for monarchs, popes, and so forth
9.43Numerals with personal names
9.44Numbers for sequels
9.45Vehicle and vessel numbers
9.46Successive governments
9.47Numbered political and judicial divisions
9.48Numbered military units
9.49Numbered places of worship
9.50Unions and lodges

Addresses and Thoroughfares
9.51Numbered highways
9.52Numbered streets
9.53Building and apartment numbers


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## Drink

shalom00 said:


> Actually, it is not a rule. It is a style, and there are different styles.



A style rule is still a rule. And yes there are different styles, but I'm giving my general impression of what is commonly followed.


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## sawyeric1

So what is the common style for when to write out numbers and when to just use numerals in Hebrew?


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## ystab

sawyeric1 said:


> So what is the common style for when to write out numbers and when to just use numerals in Hebrew?



As a rule of thumb, I personally write out numbers from one to ten, one word big numbers, and sometinmes one word tens. Usually, when using measurements, I write numerals.
Examples:
שבע בנות
30 מטוסים or שלושים מטוסים
14 אלף דירות
5 מיליון תושבים
9 ס"מ


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