# take down < a > lady who kills people



## Phoebe1200

_Agent Carter, TV show 
Agents are planning on using some device to take down a very dangerous woman._

*

Agent1:* I'm comfortable with that. Are you? 
*Agent2: *Our job is keeping people safe. If that means using Vernon to take down *a *lady who kills people with black space goop, that's what's got to happen.


Is the use of the indefinite article here equal to the meaning of "*any*"?


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## Glenfarclas

No, in the same way that "I ate a banana" doesn't mean "I ate any banana."


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## Phoebe1200

Then could you please explain why "*a*" is used in the OP?


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## RedwoodGrove

You don't have a lot of choices. Here it's limited to _a, the, this, _or_ some._

Here, "a lady" functions to generalize the statement. It not only refers specifically to this lady, but generically to any such lady. The reason you don't use _any_ in the OP sentence is that it would imply (in my view) a kind of compulsiveness on Vernon's part. "Whenever Vernon comes across this type of lady he automatically kills her."

That may not be the best explanation in the world but perhaps it will point you in the right direction.
_
_


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## Barque

I think that's a pretty good explanation.


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## Phoebe1200

RedwoodGrove said:


> The reason you don't use _any_ in the OP sentence is that it would imply (in my view) a kind of compulsiveness on Vernon's part.


I didn't suggest to actually use the word "any", I was only talking about its meaning.



RedwoodGrove said:


> It not only refers specifically to this lady, but generically to any such lady.


Isn't this what I said in the OP?


Phoebe1200 said:


> Is the use of the indefinite article here equal to the meaning of "*any*"?


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## Edinburgher

Note that it's not "any lady" but "any lady who kills people with black space goop".  There can't be very many of those. 

Just think of "a lady" as meaning "someone", except that it adds the information that it's someone who happens to be female.
I'd say that this "a" doesn't really mean "any" in the same way that "someone" doesn't really mean "anyone".


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## Phoebe1200

RedwoodGrove said:


> The reason you don't use _any_ in the OP sentence


Would you mind clarifying?
Are you talking about actually using the word "any" in the OP here, like this "_If that means using Vernon to take down *any *lady who kills people with black space goop, that's what's got to happen"_?


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## VicNicSor

1. I'm so hungry I could eat *a* horse.
2. I'm so hungry I could eat *any* horse.

1. = A very large amount of food. "A horse" as opposed to "a chicken", "an apple", etc.
2. "Any kind of horse" as opposed to just "a horse". I.e. not only "a horse", but a horse of any size, breed, weight, color, etc.

(Note, the common expression is '1')

Also, '2' implies that eating a horse is not so "surprising" as it is in '1', or has already been mentioned, e.g.: "I could eat a horse." "What horse?" "Any horse."

The same is with "*a *lady who kills people with black space goop" vs "*any *lady who kills people with black space goop".


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## Phoebe1200

VicNicSor said:


> 1. I'm so hungry I could eat *a* horse.
> 2. I'm so hungry I could eat *any* horse.
> 
> 1. = A very large amount of food. "A horse" as opposed to "a chicken", "an apple", etc.
> 2. "Any kind of horse" as opposed to just "a horse". I.e. not only "a horse", but a horse of any size, breed, weight, color, etc.


I understood this example but I can't seem to apply it to the OP sentence. If you'd be so kind as to explain it with the OP sentence, that'd be great.


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## VicNicSor

Phoebe1200 said:


> I understood this example but I can't seem to apply it to the OP sentence. If you'd be so kind as to explain it with the OP sentence, that'd be great.



"Who kills people with black space goop" in "a lady who kills people with black space goop" is an adjectival clause. So, to make it easier, you can just replace the clause with an adjective, say, "dangerous":

_If that means using Vernon to take down *a dangerous lady*, that's what's got to happen._


Now, let's add an adjective, e.g. -- "big", to the horse example:
_I'm so hungry I could eat *a big* *horse*.
_
So, now the horse and OP examples are similar_. 
_
And also note that the adjectives 'big' and 'dangerous' (as well as the adjectival clause) don't affect the "a/any" difference here. I mean, if the OP had been just "_If that means using Vernon to take down *a lady, *that's what's got to happen."_, it would just be identical to the horse example in #9.


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## Phoebe1200

Thank you very much for all of your explanations. I still have some questions though.


VicNicSor said:


> 2. I'm so hungry I could eat *any* horse.
> 
> 2. "Any kind of horse" as opposed to just "a horse". I.e. not only "a horse", but a horse of any size, breed, weight, color, etc.



And if it was "_*any *lady who kills people with black space goop_" in the OP, should I consider the weight, size of the lady?


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## VicNicSor

Phoebe1200 said:


> it was "_*any *lady who kills people with black space goop_" in the OP, should I consider the weight, size of the lady?



Well, maybe the weight, height, creed, nationality, etc. But actually, "*a* lady who ..." means that the lady could be of any weight, height, creed, nationality, etc *too*,
and it goes without saying, so there is no point in using "any" and emphasizing this fact. As RG said, "it would imply (in my view) a kind of compulsiveness on Vernon's part".


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## Phoebe1200

Do I understand it correctly that if the word "any" actually was used in "_If that means using Vernon to take down *any *lady who kills people with black space goop, that's what's got to happe_n" it would mean that I'm only talking about ladies who kill people using black space goop and no other ladies, for instance, who kill people using fire or something else?


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## VicNicSor

Yes, but the same applies to "*a lady*":


Phoebe1200 said:


> "_If that means using Vernon to take down a lady who kills people with black space goop, that's what's got to happe_n" it would mean that I'm only talking about ladies who kill people using black space goop and no other ladies, for instance, who kill people using fire or something else?


What matters here is the relative clause "who kills people with black space goop" rather than the "a/any" difference.


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## Phoebe1200

This why I asked my post #14. 


Edinburgher said:


> Note that it's not "any lady" but "any lady who kills people with black space goop". There can't be very many of those.


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## VicNicSor

But the question has already been answered in #7 then


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## Truffula

The use of "a" is equivalent to the use of "some" as indicated by Edinburgher.  The difference between "a lady" and "any lady" is like the difference between "someone" and "anyone."


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## Phoebe1200

This thread is the reason I thought that "a" was equal to the meaning of "any" in the OP. 

Please take a look at it. Don't worry it's a short thread.

*How can you hurt <a> man who's given you so much*


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## VicNicSor

Phoebe1200 said:


> How can you hurt <a> man who's given you so much



Well, in the same way as "any" doesn't work here, it would not work in the sentence in that thread too. But, it works there, however, as a way to explain the difference between "the" and "a".


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## sound shift

Phoebe1200 said:


> _Agents are planning on using some device *to take down a very dangerous woman.*_


So the agents are talking about a _particular_ woman. "If that means using Vernon to take down *a* lady who kills people with black space goop..." is consistent with that. "A lady" here means  "a particular lady, the very dangerous woman who we've been talking about." The conversation is only about that woman, not about _any _woman who kills people with black space goop.


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## VicNicSor

Sorry, I disagree, SS...

"_Agents are planning on using some device to take down* a **very dangerous woman*._"
"A very dangerous woman" is a particular woman, yes, but it's a "first mention", and that's why "a" is used.

"*A lady *who kills people with black space goop" in the OP is, indeed, "_any _hypothetical woman who would kill people with black space goop". It's just they know only one such a lady -- the one in question. It's the same meaning of "a" as in the thread at the link given in #19.


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## sound shift

Vic, I haven't seen the show. Whether "Agents are planning on using some device to take down very dangerous woman" is quote from the show or contextual information from Phoebe, "a very dangerous woman" implies a particular woman. Agent 2 seems to me to be referring to the same woman.


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## Phoebe1200

sound shift said:


> "Agents are planning on using some device to take down very dangerous woman"


It is contextual information from me. It's not a quote from the show.


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## PaulQ

One understanding is:

If that means using Vernon to take down *a *lady who kills people with black space goop,= If that means using Vernon to take down *an example of a {*lady who kills people with black space goop}

*A lady* is used because we cannot be specific and we are looking for one example of a lady (see above) - however, the number of possible ladies whom Vernon should kill is limited by "who kills people with black space goop."

We are looking for a lady who is tall -> We are looking for *any* lady, but the example of a lady for whom we are looking is tall (unlike some of the ladies that you might see.)

To go further, they are only looking for *one *lady (i.e. *a* lady) -> they are looking for one {lady who kills people with black space goop}


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## VicNicSor

sound shift said:


> Vic, I haven't seen the show. Whether "Agents are planning on using some device to take down very dangerous woman" is quote from the show or contextual information from Phoebe, "a very dangerous woman" implies a particular woman.


I haven't either, and I took the first sentences as contextual information.


sound shift said:


> Agent 2 seems to me to be referring to the same woman.


Just replace, please, "a" in both sentences with "any" to see the difference:

1. _Agents are planning on using some device to take down *any *very dangerous woman._

2._ If that means using Vernon to take down *any *lady who kills people with black space goop, that's what's got to happen.
_
'1' now has a different meaning -- it's not about a particular dangerous woman, but any dangerous woman (there could be a lot of them).

'2' means essentially the same as the OP, except for the little difference we've been talking about here from the beginning.

Do you agree?...


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## sound shift

Phoebe1200 said:


> It is contextual information from me. It's not a quote from the show.


Thank you. By mistake I left out the "a" that you included in the contextual information that you provided. Presumably, the context is already clear to Agents 1 and 2 when they have this conversation. If so, Agent 2 is talking about the particular "very dangerous woman" that you refer to in your contextual information, Phoebe.


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## sound shift

Vic, I know the difference between "a" and "any". Because of Phoebe's contextual information, I believe that Agent 2 is talking about a particular woman. Because of his responsibilities, Vernon would in all probability "take down" (in this context a euphemistic term that is probably used more by professionals than by the public; I've never heard anyone use it in this sense) _any_ woman who killed people with black space goop if the situation arose, but that's a matter of logic, not language. At the moment, they have one particular woman in mind.


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## VicNicSor

sound shift said:


> Vic, I know the difference between "a" and "any". Because of Phoebe's contextual information, I believe that Agent 2 is talking about a particular woman. Because of his responsibilities, Vernon would in all probability "take down" (in this context a euphemistic term that is probably used more by professionals than by the public; I've never heard anyone use it in this sense) _any_ woman who killed people with black space goop if the situation arose, but that's a matter of logic, not language. At the moment, they have one particular woman in mind.



I didn't mean the a/any difference. I talked about a difference between "a particular woman" and "a woman in general", using "any" to make what I meant clearer...

I.e., you disagree that "a" in "a lady who ..." has the same emaning as in "a" in "a man who ..." at the link in #19, right...?


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## Phoebe1200

sound shift said:


> Presumably, the context is already clear to Agents 1 and 2 when they have this conversation. If so, Agent 2 is talking about the particular "very dangerous woman" that you refer to in your contextual information, Phoebe.


When I was creating the thread, at that moment I'd only seen two episodes of the show, that's why I used "Agent1/2" because I didn't remember their names. And I actually haven't watched a lot of episodes ever since, only a couple, maybe.

But I remember the scene and I've just looked up the characters' names and so, Whitney Frost is the woman who kills people with black scoop, there are three agents: Peggy Carter, Daniel Sousa, Jack Thompson. 
There's also this guy, Vernon, who's with the Council or something, but usually, they don't work with him and don't trust him at all. But since Whitney Frost is getting too dangerous they've decided to team up with Vernon to take her down by using some kind of bombing device. And Daniel Sousa and  Jack Thompson are fine with this plan but they haven't told Peggy about it yet. So in the scene, they've all gathered in a room including Peggy and they're trying to get her on board with it. Here's a little more of the original conversation:

*Vernon:* A council calls this particular situation a stalemate, and the only way out of a stalemate...is together. 
*Either Vernon or Daniel:* I'm comfortable with that. Are you? 

*Jack:* Our job is keeping people safe. If that means using Vernon to take down a lady who kills people with black space goop, that's what's got to happen. What's it gonna be, Carter? 
*Vernon:* Ah, she's a smart girl. She's gonna play ball.


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## Phoebe1200

Could the OP have been used with "the"?

_If that means using Vernon to take down *the* lady who kills people with black space goop, that's what's got to happen._


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## Barque

I haven't been following this thread all that regularly but if you're asking this question after 30 replies, I suspect it's because you haven't been paying attention.


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## Phoebe1200

I meant to ask this question from the beginning but then got lost in all the "a" vs "any" difference. So, that's why I'm asking now.


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## VicNicSor

You quoted the link in post #19. Post #2 in that thread is the answer to your question


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## PaulQ

Phoebe1200 said:


> Could the OP have been used with "the"?


Yes.


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## Phoebe1200

Just a few last questions.



VicNicSor said:


> Well, in the same way as "any" doesn't work here, it would not work in the sentence in that thread too. But, it works there, however, as a way to explain the difference between "the" and "a".


But doesn't it work to explain the difference between "the" and "a" in this thread too?



RedwoodGrove said:


> Here, "a lady" functions to generalize the statement. It not only refers specifically to this lady but generically to any such lady.





sound shift said:


> Because of his responsibilities, Vernon would in all probability take down _any_ woman who killed people with black space goop if the situation arose, but that's a matter of logic, not language. At the moment, they have one particular woman in mind.


Meaning that if another such lady who kills people with black space goop ever were to come along the agent would take her down, right? That is what is meant by "a" in the OP, right?




VicNicSor said:


> "*A lady *who kills people with black space goop" in the OP is, indeed, "_any _hypothetical woman who would kill people with black space goop". It's just they know only one such a lady -- the one in question. It's the same meaning of "a" as in the thread at the link given in #19.


When I came across the OP sentence I immediately thought why it wasn't used with the definite article "the". And then I remembered the linked thread in #19 and thought that the use of "a" was similar to that thread. That's what I was trying to ask in my first post when I said: _Is the use of the indefinite article here equal to the meaning of "*any*"?
_
Was I wrong? Or was my OP question badly worded?


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## VicNicSor

Phoebe1200 said:


> But doesn't it work to explain the difference between "the" and "a" in this thread too?


It does. That's exactly what I said in #34.


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## Phoebe1200

And what about these please.



Phoebe1200 said:


> Meaning that if another such lady who kills people with black space goop ever were to come along the agent would take her down, right? That is what is meant by "a" in the OP, right?





Phoebe1200 said:


> When I came across the OP sentence I immediately thought why it wasn't used with the definite article "the". And then I remembered the linked thread in #19 and thought that the use of "a" was similar to that thread. That's what I was trying to ask in my first post when I said: _Is the use of the indefinite article here equal to the meaning of "*any*"?
> _
> Was I wrong? Or was my OP question badly worded?


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## VicNicSor

Phoebe1200 said:


> When I came across the OP sentence I immediately thought why it wasn't used with the definite article "the". And then I remembered the linked thread in #19 and thought that the use of "a" was similar to that thread. That's what I was trying to ask in my first post when I said: _Is the use of the indefinite article here equal to the meaning of "*any*"?
> _
> Was I wrong? Or was my OP question badly worded?


But your question about the "a/any" difference has been answered here by several people. Or were the replies badly worded too?


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## Phoebe1200

And what about this?



Phoebe1200 said:


> Meaning that if another such lady who kills people with black space goop ever were to come along the agent would take her down, right? That is what is meant by "a" in the OP, right?


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## Truffula

Phoebe1200 said:


> And what about this?
> 
> Meaning that if another such lady who kills people with black space goop ever were to come along the agent would take her down, right? That is what is meant by "a" in the OP, right?



Exactly wrong, as explained above by soundshift.


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## VicNicSor

1. The OP context:
If that means using Vernon to take down *a *lady who kills people with black space goop, that's what's got to happen.

2. Now imagine such a context:
A newcomer asks the detectives:
-- What are you doing?
-- We're going to use Vernon to take down *a *lady who kills people with black space goop.

These are two different instances of "a", and here I have to disagree with SS, because he doesn't make the distinction. In '1', everyone knows the lady; in '2', the listener doesn't know anything about the lady.

What the indefinite article essentially does in the OP is indicate that the lady is so dangerous that they even agree to cooperate with Vernon to take her down.

Using THE instead would *not *have such a meaning. "The" would just define the woman and indicate that they are talking about that woman and not someone else.


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## Phoebe1200

Truffula said:


> Exactly wrong, as explained above by soundshift.


Then I'm confused.



RedwoodGrove said:


> Here, "a lady" functions to generalize the statement. It *not only refers specifically to this lady, but generically to any such lady.*





sound shift said:


> Because of his responsibilities, Vernon would in all probability *take down any woman who killed people with black space goop if the situation arose*, but that's a matter of logic, not language. At the moment, they have one particular woman in mind.


Doesn't my explanation mean the same as the above?


Phoebe1200 said:


> Meaning that if another such lady who kills people with black space goop ever were to come along the agent would take her down, right? That is what is meant by "a" in the OP, right?


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## Phoebe1200

PaulQ said:


> If that means using Vernon to take down *an example of a {*lady who kills people with black space goop}


Could you please tell me what you mean by "an example of a"?


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## PaulQ

I used that sentence to illustrate one of the meanings of "a/an"
"There are apples and pears on the table - take an apple." -> take an example of an apple "an example" implies "one from among many"; it can also mean "any single one".

A skyscraper is a building -> a skyscraper in one example of a building.


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## Phoebe1200

RedwoodGrove said:


> Here, "a lady" functions to generalize the statement. It *not only refers specifically to this lady, but generically to any such lady.*





sound shift said:


> Because of his responsibilities, Vernon *would in all probability take down any woman who killed people with black space goop if the situation arose,* but that's a matter of logic, not language. At the moment, they have one particular woman in mind.





Phoebe1200 said:


> Meaning that if another such lady who kills people with black space goop ever were to come along the agent would take her down, right? That is what is meant by "a" in the OP, right?



I struggle to understand why my explanation is wrong. I mean, like Redwood said "_a lady _functions to generalize the statement", and if it's not talking about other potential similar women, then what does it generalize? What does this generalization include?


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## Cagey

I find the conversation in this thread confusing, so I cannot explain the different points of view.

I can only say my point of view:  When they say _"*a *lady who kills people with black space goop"_ they have a particular lady in mind. If they are thinking of a certain lady who is the only one who kills people, it would make sense to cay _"the lady who kills people."_ However that makes her too important.  The generalizing '*a*' treats her as though she might be one of several women who kill people, and makes her less important.  It is a stylistic choice people sometimes make.


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## Phoebe1200

Thank you for replying!

 Could you tell me why my explanation of what Redwood and Soundshift said is wrong in #42?


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## PaulQ

Phoebe1200 said:


> If that means using Vernon to take down *a *lady who kills people with black space goop,





Phoebe1200 said:


> Is the use of the indefinite article here equal to the meaning of "*any*"?


No, not really - *any* includes the possibility that there is/might be *more than one* lady that kills people with black goop. We use *a* to avoid this. *A/an* means "one" in this context.

Let us assume that you are buying apples, and you say to your friend:

_"Put *a* red apple into this bag"_, this is not the same as *"Put any red apple into this bag"*: The former means _"put *one *red apple into the bag"_; the latter *can mean* _"Select *all *the red apples and put them into this bag."_ (Unless your friend or the reader knows from the context that you only want *one *apple - in which case, the *a* is the same as *any.*)
*
Any* red apple can mean (i) *one *red apple taken from amongst all the apples that are on display, or (ii) *all *the examples of a red apple: the context will tell you what it means.

*As you re-read all the answers, you must also bear in mind that, in English, all singular countable nouns must be qualified by a determiner (a/an, the, this, that, any, my, etc.) and this is true even if you think that the determiner is not needed or does not add anything to the sentence.*


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## VicNicSor

Imagine, the pastor in a church has gone nuts and is holding the parishioners hostage, threatening to kill them all. You're a sniper. You say: "I must save those people's lives. If that means to kill *a pastor*, that's what I'm gonna do."

If you said "*the pastor*", it'd mean you're willing to go as far as to *kill *him. Not just arrest or disarm, but kill.

But "*a pastor*" means something different. You're emphasizing the fact that you're willing to kill even such a honourable and important person as *a* pastor.

"*Any pastor*" would not work in this context.


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## Phoebe1200

Hi,
I apologize for the late reply.
Thank you Paul and Vic for your examples.


VicNicSor said:


> But "*a pastor*" means something different. You're emphasizing the fact that you're willing to kill even such a honourable and important person as *a* pastor.


Does "a pastor" mean the concept of a pastor?


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## Edinburgher

No, the sniper is not (thinking about) killing the concept of a pastor, but killing a real person who is a pastor.
But we can think of the concept of killing a pastor.


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## VicNicSor

Yes, "a pastor" is "a person who is a pastor", "concept" is "the wall" in the thread about "against the wall".

*What, I should've written "an honourable" then


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## Phoebe1200

Is the following correct?

I must save those people's lives. If that means to kill *the *pastor, that's what I'm gonna do.=the specific pastor (person) who's right now inside the church threatening to kill the people.

I must save those people's lives. If that means to kill *a *pastor, that's what I'm gonna do.=talking about not only the pastor that's right now threatening to kill the people inside the church but *any other pastor* who would be in his place.


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## VicNicSor

Yes, you can think of "a pastor" as "any other pastor who could be in his place", except that you can't, of course, replace "a pastor" with "any pastor" in the sentence itself.


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## SevenDays

Phoebe1200 said:


> _Agent Carter, TV show
> Agents are planning on using some device to take down a very dangerous woman._
> 
> *
> 
> Agent1:* I'm comfortable with that. Are you?
> *Agent2: *Our job is keeping people safe. If that means using Vernon to take down *a *lady who kills people with black space goop, that's what's got to happen.
> 
> 
> Is the use of the indefinite article here equal to the meaning of "*any*"?



Yes, but it needs some explaining. And you need to put your linguistics/semantics hat on, and don't think of "lady" as an _actual_ person.
_
to take down *a* lady who kills people with black space good._ Linguistically speaking, we have an abstract group of "ladies who kill people with black space goop," and from this group, _one_ member is selected; so "a" means "one." Moreover, it doesn't matter _which_ member from this abstract group is selected, and it's in that sense that _a _means _any_. However, "any" carries its own semantic meaning.
_
to take down *any* lady who kills people with black space good._ When you select "one" member of a group, you don't select the other members of that group. Linguistically, _any_ means that you don't _exclude_ anyone; they are all treated the same. And that's the difference. Linguistically/semantically, "a" means "one", and "any" means "I'm not excluding anyone." Look at it this way. _I can read a boo_k means _one_ member of the category "book;" _I can read any book_ means that, for reading, I don't _exclude_ any member of the category "book;" whichever book you give me, I'll read.

_to take down *the* lady who kills people with black space goop_. This means that there's a specific "lady," previously identified, who's therefore known contextually.

The above also applies to "if that means to kill *a* pastor," "if that means to kill *any* pastor," and "if that means to kill *the* pastor."

All that said, "any" seems to be at a disadvantage, meaning (I suspect) that you are more likely to see "a" than "any." _Pragmatically_ speaking, given that this use of "any" means you don't exclude anyone, you are really _including_ everyone, and that seems to go against the basic idea that what you really mean is the selection of "one" member (thus "a"). But I'd be interested to see if our native friends make any distinction between "a" and "any" in this context.

Syntactically, you do need a _determiner_ because you need a _full_ noun phrase (in other words, we can't just say "to take down lady who kills people with space goop").


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## siares

I think the "a" adds humour.
The existence of such a specific lady is a on-off. But they use her as a representant of a category (which doesn't exist) to imply that the job entails a general weirdness/difficulty with which they need to put up. 
- I'll do anything to learn articles. Kill a pope, marry a lady that kills people with black goo, you name it.


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## Phoebe1200

Thank you Edinburger, Vic, SevenDays and Siares.


VicNicSor said:


> except that you can't, of course, replace "a pastor" with "any pastor" in the sentence itself.


I never actually intended to replace "a" with "any" neither here nor in my OP. I was just talking about what "a" means.
So, in the OP, it's the same?
If that means using Vernon to take down *a *lady who kills people with black space goop, that's what's got to happen.talking about not only the lady that they all know who kills people with black space goop  but *any other such lady *who would be in her place.


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## VicNicSor

Phoebe1200 said:


> Thank you Edinburger, Vic, SevenDays and Siares.
> 
> I never actually intended to replace "a" with "any" neither here nor in my OP. I was just talking about what "a" means.
> So, in the OP, it's the same?
> If that means using Vernon to take down *a *lady who kills people with black space goop, that's what's got to happen.talking about not only the lady that they all know who kills people with black space goop  but *any other such lady *who would be in her place.



I just don't think that "*any other *..." is the best way of putting it. In both examples -- 'lady' and 'pastor' -- you think about one single person who is "a lady who ...." or "a pastor". You emphasise *what kind of person* you're going to eliminate, not the fact that you would be ready to eliminate *any such person*. But it's just a nuance.


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## Edinburgher

I agree with Vic.  It's not about "any such lady".  I suppose the speaker wouldn't even think twice about taking down *any person* who kills people with black space goop if that person were a man.  What raises the point of interest is that this person happens to be *a woman*.


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## Phoebe1200

VicNicSor said:


> I just don't think that "*any other *..." is the best way of putting it. In both examples -- 'lady' and 'pastor' -- you think about one single person who is "a lady who ...." or "a pastor". You emphasise *what kind of person* you're going to eliminate, not the fact that you would be ready to eliminate *any such person*.


I see what you mean here.
And, Vic, perhaps you could help me with my questions in post 43 and 46?


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## VicNicSor

Phoebe1200 said:


> And, Vic, perhaps you could help me with my questions in post 43 and 46?


Did you mean this?:


> Meaning that if another such lady who kills people with black space goop ever were to come along the agent would take her down, right? That is what is meant by "a" in the OP, right?


But I explained my view on this in #59, didn't I?


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## siares

In my opinion, and I use Vik's quote here (do you agree, Vik?)
it would be almost the same if plural were used: Our job is keeping people safe. If that means taking down ladies who kill people with black space goop, that's what's got to happen.


VicNicSor said:


> You emphasise *what kind of person* you're going to eliminate


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## Phoebe1200

VicNicSor said:


> But I explained my view on this in #59, didn't I?


I guess.
But I was kind of hoping that you could tell me what was so wrong about my comment in those posts especially in relation to what Soundshift and Redgrove said which I quoted in those posts.


Phoebe1200 said:


> I never actually intended to replace "a" with "any" in my OP.


And I just want to add that all I ever wanted to know was why it's "a"in the OP and not "the".


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## VicNicSor

Ok, it's kind of complicated now, to keep track of who said what, especially because, as you see, some disagree with others. So what exactly is still unclear to you, without referring way back to other posts?


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## Phoebe1200

I'm just worried that the way I formulated my question in the OP got everyone confused and everyone thought that I wanted to replace "a" in the OP with "any", which I never did and I actually clarified that in my post 6. And then the whole "a" vs "any" got me confused too. But, like I said all I ever wanted to know was why it's "a" in the OP and not "the".


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## JulianStuart

If you use the it requires 1) that "lady who kills people with black space goop," to exist (in the plot) already and 2) to have been mentioned before.  Is either of those conditions true in the OP?


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## Phoebe1200

JulianStuart said:


> If you use the it requires 1) that "lady who kills people with black space goop," to exist (in the plot) already and 2) to have been mentioned before.  Is either of those conditions true in the OP?


1) Yes, she exists.
2) Well, they were talking about her but I think calling her by her name (Whitney Frost).


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## VicNicSor

Phoebe1200 said:


> 1) Yes, she exists.
> 2) Well, they were talking about her but I think calling her by her name (Whitney Frost).


So he could have used the article THE then But he chose to use "a". Both are correct, and I'm sure the difference has been explained somewhere in this long thread


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## JulianStuart

Is the black space goop real?


VicNicSor said:


> So he could have used the article THE then But he chose to use "a". Both are correct, and I'm sure the difference has been explained somewhere in this long thread



(I now understand this is a real lady with real space goop)  

If it was important to refer to that specific lady, *the* might be expected.  In this case, however, there seems to be a humorous touch to creating a whole category  of "ladies who kill with black space goop" and the use of *a *is merely describing the general concept of killing one of them, again


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## Phoebe1200

I really appreciate your replies.
But there's just one thing left. Siares comment got me thinking. Let's say there were actually several ladies who kill people with black space goop in the show, then would it be used with article "the" or zero article?
_
If that means using Vernon to take down* the *ladies who kill people with black space goop, that's what's got to happen.

If that means using Vernon to take down ladies who kill people with black space goop, that's what's got to happen._


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## VicNicSor

siares said:


> In my opinion, and I use Vik's quote here (do you agree, Vik?)
> it would be almost the same if plural were used: Our job is keeping people safe. If that means taking down ladies who kill people with black space goop, that's what's got to happen.


Oh, I overlooked your question I'm sure in the OP context the plural "ladies" woud not work.


Phoebe1200 said:


> Let's say there were actually several ladies who kill people with black space goop in the show, then would it be used with article "the" or zero article?
> _
> If that means using Vernon to take down* the *ladies who kill people with black space goop, that's what's got to happen.
> 
> If that means using Vernon to take down ladies who kill people with black space goop, that's what's got to happen._


The difference would be essentially similar to the "*the *lady vs *a *lady" with having only one such lady in the OP.


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## JulianStuart

In the OP it appears we know there is only one, so using ladies would not fit the OP. However, if there were several or a lot of these characters, then _ladies_ or _the ladies_ would both work.


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## Phoebe1200

VicNicSor said:


> The difference would be essentially similar to the "*the *lady vs *a *lady"


Meaning that if "the" was used it would mean he's talking about specific ladies who kill people with black space goop that exist and they all know about.
_
If that means using Vernon to take down* the *ladies who kill people with black space goop, that's what's got to happen._

And if zero article, then that would mean that he's not only referring specifically to those ladies but generically to any such ladies?

_If that means using Vernon to take down ladies who kill people with black space goop, that's what's got to happen._


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## JulianStuart

Phoebe1200 said:


> Meaning that if "the" was used it would mean he's talking about specific ladies who kill people with black space goop that exist and they all know about.
> _
> If that means using Vernon to take down* the *ladies who kill people with black space goop, that's what's got to happen._
> 
> And if zero article, then that would mean that he's not only referring specifically to those ladies but generically to any such ladies?
> 
> _If that means using Vernon to take down ladies who kill people with black space goop, that's what's got to happen._


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## Phoebe1200

Thank you very much.



VicNicSor said:


> Oh, I overlooked your question I'm sure in the OP context the plural "ladies" woud not work.


I'm a bit puzzled. Why did you say that it would not work?


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## JulianStuart

Phoebe1200 said:


> I'm a bit puzzled. Why did you say that it would not work?


I wrote: "In the OP it appears we know there is only one, so using ladies would not fit the OP" to answer that.


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## Phoebe1200

JulianStuart said:


> I wrote: "In the OP it appears we know there is only one, so using ladies would not fit the OP" to answer that.


Thanks.

I'm very thankful to all of you for your kind replies. Thank you for taking the trouble to help me.


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## VicNicSor

Compare these three instances of the indefinite article, the way they differ:

1.* A *lady who kills people with black space goop is a very dangerous type. (*any *lady)

2. Yesterday I took down *a *lady who killed people with black space goop. (*specific *lady)

3. If that means using Vernon to take down *a *lady who kills people with black space goop, that's what's got to happen. (*a kind of person*)


In '3', "a lady" doesn't refer directly to the particular person, as it does in '2', but at the same time it does not mean "any". Something in between Am I confusing the matter again?


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## Phoebe1200

VicNicSor said:


> Compare these three instances of the indefinite article, the way they differ:
> 
> 1.* A *lady who kills people with black space goop is a very dangerous type. (*any *lady)
> 
> 2. Yesterday I took down *a *lady who killed people with black space goop. (*specific *lady)
> 
> 3. If that means using Vernon to take down *a *lady who kills people with black space goop, that's what's got to happen. (*a kind of person*)
> 
> 
> In '3', "a lady" doesn't refer directly to the particular person, as it does in '2', but at the same time it does not mean "any". Something in between



Thank you very much for these explanatory examples.

But in '3' the speaker still has a particular lady in mind, right?


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## VicNicSor

Phoebe1200 said:


> Thank you very much for these explanatory examples.
> 
> But in '3' the speaker still has a particular lady in mind, right?



In the OP, of course, he is thinking about that lady when saying that, at that moment. But it's more a matter of logic than grammar.

-- Why did you buy such a big gun?
-- I want to feel safe. If that means having a gun that can kill *an elephant*, that's it.

I don't have any particular elephant in mind. Similar case.


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## JulianStuart

VicNicSor said:


> In the OP, of course, he is thinking about that lady when saying that, at that moment. But it's *more a matter of logic than grammar.*
> .


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## Phoebe1200

VicNicSor said:


> Similar case.


Sorry, but similar case to what?


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## JulianStuart

Phoebe1200 said:


> Sorry, but similar case to what?




...that can kill (the) an elephant
...using Vernon to take down (the) a lady
As usual, the means a specified one, while a does not.


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## Phoebe1200

VicNicSor said:


> I don't have any particular elephant in mind. Similar case.


But the agent does have a particular lady in mind. So how is it a similar case?


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## VicNicSor

Phoebe1200 said:


> But the agent does have a particular lady in mind. So how is it a similar case?


It's similar because in both cases it is a question of logic, not grammar


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## Phoebe1200

VicNicSor said:


> Why did you buy such a big gun?
> -- I want to feel safe. If that means having a gun that can kill *an elephant*, that's it.


I think that it would be better to use "gun" here to show the similarity rather than "elephant".


VicNicSor said:


> If that means having a gun that can kill *an elephant*, that's it.



Because when the speaker says this sentence, he has a particular gun in mind i.e the one that he bought and he uses "a" to describe what kind of gun he possesses. What do you think?


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## JulianStuart

Did you read #84?  I've put the parallel elements into colour to help



JulianStuart said:


> ... *gun* that can *kill* (the) *an elephant*
> ...using *Vernon* to* take down* (the) *a lady*
> As usual, the means a specified one, while a does not.


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## Phoebe1200

I did but I don't understand.



VicNicSor said:


> I want to feel safe. If that means having a gun that can kill *an elephant*, that's it.


I think that "elephant" here means "any elephant". Doesn't it?


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## JulianStuart

Phoebe1200 said:


> I did but I don't understand.
> 
> 
> I think that "elephant" here means "any elephant". Doesn't it?


Exactly what we've been saying.  The parallel is (any lady who kills with black space goop)
substitute elephant in place of "lady who ..."
If that means having a gun that can kill *an elephant* any lady ..., that's it....


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## Phoebe1200

Thanks a million for your answers.


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