# Patria, yurte, home country



## ThomasK

What is the basic word in the common word for your home country ? 

Some questions: 
 - is it always called a 'father('s) land' (vaderland, ...), never a mother('s) land ? 
 - or does it refer to home and in what sense ? ('yurte' in Turkish was a nomadic tent, I was told; in German there is the word 'Heimat' [contaning home]
 - any other root words ?


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## ajo fresco

Here we say _homeland, fatherland, motherland,_ or _mother country_, which can mean your home country or the country from which your ancestors originated, depending on the context.


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## se16teddy

To me, 
- _fatherland_ connotes Germany (This was truer of an earlier generation: when I was 11 my Latin teacher expressed indignation that our textbook translated _patria_ as fatherland). 
- _land of my fathers_ undoubtedly connotes Wales. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hen_Wlad_Fy_Nhadau 

I suspect that we tend to evade the concept in England - we're not very sure what land we belong to, and the concept risks raising uncomfortable political and nature / nurture issues! If pressed, I might say that my motherland or mother country was one or more of: England / Britain / the UK / the British and Irish Isles; but if I had identifiable ancestors from beyond these islands (as many Londoners do), I might well be even more uncomfortable with the whole idea.


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## jazyk

There's pátria in Portuguese, but we normally say país referring to Brazil as in As melhores escolas do País (the best schools in the country). I don't know if this answers your question, though.


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## Nanon

There is "patrie" in French, but there is no "*m*atrie".
However, as the country (France) is a feminine noun, it can be referred to as "la mère patrie", joining father and mother in the same expression . Also valid for Spanish in "la madre patria", Portuguese in "a mãe pátria", etc. 

In Russian, the root of родина / rodina is related to the idea of birth. It can also be referred to as a mother.
There is also the word отечество / otechestvo that derivates from the word "father".


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## Outsider

As Jazyk has said, the Portuguese term is _pátria_, ultimately from Latin _pater_ (father). We also often say _terra_ (land/country), though, which is a feminine word. You will find more information in this previous thread.



Nanon said:


> However, as the country (France) is a feminine noun, it can be referred to as "la mère patrie", joining father and mother in the same expression . Also valid for Spanish in "la madre patria", Portuguese in "a mãe pátria", etc.


Quite so! "Mother Fatherland."


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## Kanes

On Bulgarian in most cases it is: _родина (rodina)_ - kinland, literary kin on something.


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## kusurija

In Czech:
Vlast[fem.] (by ethymology has common root with vlastní = own)
(very rarely used (and little strange) term is domovina[fem.] - homeland)

In Lithuanian:
Tėvynė[fem.] (tėvas = father; meaning of word is *father*land)

In Japanese:
我が国[wagakuni] means our country (reserved for Japanese, not for translations from other languages).


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## elroy

The Arabic word is وطن (_waTan_), which is not related to either "mother" or "father."  It has its own root.


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## wbhindyou

In Vietnamese, the word for country is "nuoc". The same word means "water". 

I assume that the meanings are related in some sense, because the word for "the state" is "nha nuoc" (Lit. house [and] water).


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## Nizo

In *Esperanto*, _patrujo_ (also written _patrio_) is the common word.  It means fatherland.  The word _hejmlando_ (homeland) is also used.


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## OldAvatar

Romanian:
_patrie_.


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## ThomasK

So there are references to father(s), to home and to property (our), though that may be too strong a generalisation. 

I'd like to read more about the water part in the Vietnamese word for homeland... 

Ciao ciao - e grazie !
janG


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## sokol

*German:*

Vaterland (masculinum) = fatherland = patria
Heimat (femininum) = 'homeland' = fatherland = patria
Heimatland (neutrum) = Heimat = fatherland = patria

It is _really _difficult to translate the German terms into English because there seems to be no good equivalent for any of them. 'Home country' just wouldn't do.

Even though 'Heimat' and 'Vaterland' were extensively used by the Nazis it is still possible to use them without invoking their legacy at all; if you want to refer to the Nazis understanding of _patria _you use the phrase 'Blut und Boden' (that is: _'Blut und Boden' ideology _or similar).


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## ThomasK

Interesting issue : what is your main objection to calling _Heimat_ and _home country_ equivalents ? (I am not saying I disagree, just want to read your explanation !)


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## sokol

ThomasK said:


> Interesting issue : what is your main objection to calling _Heimat_ and _home country_ equivalents ? (I am not saying I disagree, just want to read your explanation !)


It's just that 'home country' could just mean _anything._

My Collins Advanced Learner's Dictionary lists for country:
- a political unit
- farms, open fields, and villages (as opposed to towns and cities)
- a specific area of land which has particular characteristics or is connected with a particular well-known person:_ the montainous country east of Genoa_
- country music
- to go to the country = to go hold a general election

'Home country' isn't even listed in that dictionary (while 'Home Counties' is which however is something completely different i. e. the counties surrounding London).

And I've never had the impression that English native speakers would use 'home country' in any sense near 'patria' - if they use it at all (of which I am not sure).
I think in English it would be much more usual to refer to one's _patria _with _nation _and/or _nationality _- but that doesn't mean the same as e. g. 'Heimat' which could refer both to the nation and to a (probably small part) of the nation.

In German one might ask about one's 'Heimat' and the typical answer would be either the region where you grew up or alternatively (for people who for whatever reason don't want to answer that question) to answer it with the nation you belong to or to not answer at all (or evade an answer).
The latter wouldn't be so unusual: there are quite some people from mixed backgrounds or - even though not from mixed backgrounds - people who don't want to categorise themselves in terms of 'Heimat', i. e. people not wanting to identify themselves with a specific reason.


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## Revontuli

In Turkish, we use ''vatan'' or ''yurt''. It's true that the word ''yurt'' also means a nomadic tent.

We also use ''anavatan'' meaning ''_motherland_''.

Our motherland is Turkey= Anavatanımız Türkiye'dir.


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## Outsider

The exchange about German _Heimat_ was very interesting. It reminded me of the TV series _Die zweite Heimat_, which was about a group of young people who moved from the country to Berlin, to pursue careers as artists. I guess the "second homeland" in the title could be understood as Berlin, the big city, were they came to live and fulfill their dreams.


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## ThomasK

I agree as for the exchange, but I think we have not come to the end of it... ;-) 

I think we are no longer really talking about meanings/ denotation but about cultural connotations. I mean: basically the words refer to the same reality (home country, homeland), when used as a compound, but the use of words resulting from all kinds of historic experiences is different due to how people feel about their homeland (or however you call it). Some people wash their hands before holding the flag, stand up when hearing the national anthem, consider nationality part of their identity, but as a Belgian the 'homeland' is loaded. 
Yet, the denotation works, I think, even if it is a little vague (region or country, for example), but that is the case with a lot of words: not everyone will call something a chair, even if we think so... No ?


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## Outsider

Now that I've thought of the translation "homeland", which seems adequate for _Heimat_, I realised that we have a word for the same in Portuguese. It's _terra_ (land), which I mentioned above. (Sometimes also _terrinha_, "little land", in Brazilian Portuguese.) Needless to say, there may remain subtle differences of use from one language to another, but the basic distinction between _Vaterland_ and _Heimat_ does not seem to be so alien to us, after all.


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## ThomasK

I do not think we have that in Dutch (we do use _heimat_ sometimes, but even _vaderland_ is no longer used, it is _eigen land_ rather). I would think the other terms seem to romantic - and we only feel some pride, so it often seems, when our national team is playing (or when we are abroad). I think the idea of pride is the underlying factor creating some kind (impression ?) of difference.


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## sokol

Outsider said:


> The exchange about German _Heimat_ was very interesting. It reminded me of the TV series _Die zweite Heimat_, which was about a group of young people who moved from the country to Berlin, to pursue careers as artists. I guess the "second homeland" in the title could be understood as Berlin, the big city, were they came to live and fulfill their dreams.


Yes, in that case Berlin is meant as the "zweite Heimat".

"Heimat" still can mean both - the fatherland and the "homeland" = the region where you grew up. But it is very often used in the latter sense. And if you say "Heimatland" then you don't mean the village where you grew up but at least a greater region (in Austria most likely a _Bundesland _= what in Britain would be a county, in France a département, in the US a state and so on) or the nation (that is, Austria) as a whole.

Also other derivated nouns are possible: "Heimatgemeinde" = home community, "Heimweh" = homesickness, and so on. The latter is the only one where I see a clear translation into English (i. e. homesickness), else those terms all really are difficult to translate.


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## ThomasK

Rodina in Bulgarian, so I learnt at an EU site, "indicates where you feel you belong; it encompasses the words 'born' and 'family tree' ".


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## mcibor

In Polish it's called
Ojczyzna - fatherland, though word itself is feminine.


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## federicoft

Nanon said:


> There is "patrie" in French, but there is no "*m*atrie".
> However, as the country (France) is a feminine noun, it can be referred to as "la mère patrie", joining father and mother in the same expression . Also valid for Spanish in "la madre patria", Portuguese in "a mãe pátria", etc.



And Italian,_ la Madrepatria_, which thus basically means 'the mother land of the fathers'.


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## Calybos

There's also the concept of _native land_, as in "I'm a native of Canada."


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## Saluton

In Russian, it's *родина,* like in Bulgarian, or sometimes *Родина.* It comes from the word родить, родиться - to give birth to / to be born.


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## ThomasK

Just wondering: _nation_ seems to mean the same as _homeland_, from an etymological point of view. I have just found this definition : "a stable, historically developed community of people with a territory, economic life, distinctive culture, and language in common". Yet, it does not have the same... "ring" or connotation, I think. "My nation" seems to sound strange. It seems like a political term, but I have a feeling that it becomes important as the political confirmation of the existence of what we consider a/our homeland. In that sense I suspect there is a clear link.


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## Mahaodeh

I don't see _nation_ as the same as _homeland_. The former refers to _people_ and the latter refers to _land_ - linking the people to a territory does not mean that we are no longer talking about the people when we use the word nation.

I believe that _my nation_ seems strange these days because it's been exhausted politically to the extent that we no longer "feel" for it, at least not nostalgically.


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## ThomasK

I quite understand, M, but when looking up the definition it seemed to me that the idea of a community was clearly implied, especially when referring to repression of people. But as I said, I would not use it either, but some people do.


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## apmoy70

Greek:

*«Πατρίδα»* [paˈtriða] (fem.) --> _native land, fatherland, homeland_ < Classical 3rd declension fem. nominal *«πατρίς» pătrís* (nom. sing.), *«πατρίδος» pătrídŏs* (gen. sing.) --> _paternal, fatherland_ < Classical 3rd declension masc. noun *«πατήρ» pătḗr* (nom. sing.), *«πατρός» pătrós* (gen. sing.) --> _father_ (PIE *ph₂tēr- _father_ old inherited word for father (as the head of the family), preserved in most IE languages cf Skt. पितृ (pitṛ), Lat. pater, Proto-Germanic *fader, Proto-Celtic *ɸatīr etc.).
The word in Homer was used as an adjective (in Classical Greek it was nominalized): *«Πατρίς ἄρουρᾱ» pătrís ắrourā** --> _paternal soil/land_, *«πατρίς πόλις» pătrís polis* --> _paternal city_.

***Classical deverbal fem. noun *«ἄρουρᾱ» ắrourā* --> _arable land_ < Classical v. *«ἀρόω» ăróō* --> _to plough_ (PIE *h₂erh₃- _to plough_ cf Skt. उर्वरा (urvarā), _fertile soil_, Proto-Celtic *aru̯or- > OIr. arbe > Ir. arbhar, _corn, cereals_, Lat. arvus, _arable_, arātrum, _a plough/plow_ = Gr. ἄροτρον (ắrŏtrŏn) < *h₂erh₃trom, _plough/plow_).


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## ilocas2

Upper Sorbian:

*domizna* (derived from word for home)
*wótčina* (derived from word for father)


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## Messquito

In Chinese, typically, it's 祖國(ancestor country).
祖 is not gender specific, e.g. 祖父 is grandfather and 祖母 is grandmother.
In addition to "the country you are originally from", it could also mean where your ancestor from. By the latter definition, there is a chance that you have never been to your 祖國.
家園(home&yard) and 故鄉(old homeland) are also used, but they do not necessarily mean a "country". They could be a place in the same country where you currently are. Also, they are where _you_ are from, not your ancestors, so you have to be there in the first place.


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## ThomasK

elroy said:


> The Arabic word is وطن (_waTan_), which is not related to either "mother" or "father."  It has its own root.


But then: what is the root please?


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## elroy

ThomasK said:


> But then: what is the root please?


 The root is _w-T-n_, meaning "homeland."


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