# 那几<处>世界建筑宝库里鼎鼎大名的杰作之外



## yuechu

大家好！

I was recently reading the following sentence online:
周末静下来，抽空细细翻看了这几年去过的很多地方所留下的照片资料，发现除了上面的那几处世界建筑宝库里鼎鼎大名的杰作之外，还有更多出自大师之手笔的精彩作品，我们也曾经有幸一睹他们别样的风采。
Is 处(chù?) a 量词 here? The dictionary I'm using says that it's a 量词 for locations... but are 建筑 or 杰作 considered locations?
Thanks!


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## Miaoma

处 is a 量词 in this context.


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## nofacebook20200304

建筑 can be translated as a building, so 建筑 can be considered as location;
杰作 is a piece of master, so it can't be any location.

发现 除了上面的那几处世界建筑宝库里鼎鼎大名的杰作之外
simplified 
除了上面的那几处世界建筑宝库里鼎鼎大名的杰作之外
simplified
上面的那几处世界建筑宝库里鼎鼎大名的杰作
simplified
那几处世界建筑宝库里
simplified
那几处世界建筑宝库
simplified
那几处+世界建筑宝库

The above simplification/sentence decomposition is to demonstrate that "处" has nothing to do with "杰作"。

I analyzed the sentence  structure when I learn English, like the subject/predicate/object, the subordinate clause, the counction, and the preposition, etc.. Hope it helps.


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## yuechu

Oh, I understand it a lot better now. Thanks, Nofacebook20200304 and Miaoma!


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## albert_laosong

Yes, it's a measure word used for locations. But the 杰作 there actually means architecture, so it's quite okay to say 几处 there. 

That sentence is a little confusing to you because it leaves out a few words so the sentence looks more compact(for want of a better word here).
it's just like the speaker felt it's too cumbersome to say “apart from the few locations/architectures we have seen above, which are the master pieces in the world's treasury of achitecture art” , so he simply abbreviated it to be "apart from the few master pieces in the world's treasury of achitecture art we have seen above".

so the full version is "发现除了上面的那几处建筑之外，这些建筑都是世界建筑宝库里鼎鼎大名的杰作” , you can see Chinese language doesn't have strict grammar rules so it's sometimes more difficult to shove complex ideas into one sentence, while in English you can do so more easily with all kinds of clauses or non-finite structures.


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## SuperXW

杰作 originally implies literature work. Usually, we use 项/部 for 杰作.
However,  the magnificent architectural projects are considered larger than a singel piece of work. 处 works well here.


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## Jack12345

yuechu said:


> 发现除了上面的那几处世界建筑宝库里鼎鼎大名的杰作之外


I think the formal phrase should be "...发现除了上面的那几处（地方的）世界建筑宝库里鼎鼎大名的杰作之外". The original sentence has a logical mistake if it omits  地方的.

处 means place, location.
Here 几处(地方) refers to some different places or locations where each of them has some great buildings.
Generally, it can not be used to modify  杰作.
e.g.
这几座建筑（物）富丽堂皇，是名师的杰作。这座教堂是十八世纪的...
这几处（地方）都还未开发，有商业潜力。
这几处（地方的）建筑，已经几十年了，产权快到期了。你要投资，得考虑这个因素。


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## SuperXW

Jack12345 said:


> I think the formal phrase should be "...发现除了上面的那几处（地方的）世界建筑宝库里鼎鼎大名的杰作之外". The original sentence has a logical mistake if it omits  地方的.
> 
> 处 means place, location.
> Here 几处(地方) refers to some different places or locations where each of them has some great buildings.
> Generally, it can not be used to modify  杰作.


我倾向于认为这是种文字活用，个人赞成在文学作品中这样使用。
比如“长城”“紫禁城”这样的建筑，常规量词已不足以形容其规模了。


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## SimonTsai

You are right, @yuechu. It was meant to be a measure word.

The sentence that you provided is grammatically dubious, so you really need not bother yourself.


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## yuechu

SimonTsai said:


> The sentence that you provided is grammatically dubious, so you really need not bother yourself.


OK, thanks!  If it is grammatically dubious, I won't worry about it too much!


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## albert_laosong

No, I won't call it dubious, I can't think of a better structure to express that right now.


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## Orlanada

In my opinion, this sentence is understandable. However, I don't think it's a good sentence because of its pretentious and clumsy structure filled with piles of cliche. Its substance is really simple, I guess even a high school student can put it in a better way than the author has done.


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## albert_laosong

Seems like quite a few people think the sentence is not good, so can anyone come up with a better one to express the same meaning?
I'm really not being sarcastic or anything. I think the sentence is quite informal and natural, and really I can't think of a better one myself right now.


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## brofeelgood

I'm curious too.


Orlanada said:


> In my opinion, this sentence is understandable. However, I don't think it's a good sentence because of its pretentious and clumsy structure filled with piles of cliche.


Pretentious how? Clumsy where? Piles of cliches like what?


Orlanada said:


> I guess even a high school student can put it in a better way than the author has done.


Please indulge us with an example.

It's perfectly all right to disagree with someone or even challenge them (within the bounds of etiquette of course) in WR forums, but everyone ought to have the decency to substantiate their criticisms with specifics. Slagging off what appears to be a published article with a litany of condemnations and not bothering to explain the rationale behind them serves no useful purpose at all.


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## SuperXW

有人纯粹不喜欢这种文风，认为堆砌辞藻，过而不实，可有人就是喜欢啊。溢美之词不绝于耳，真情实感喷涌而出，不吐不快。这不一定是辞藻本身的问题，文学作品中更华丽夸张的堆砌比比皆是。
我跟skating之前关于这句有没有问题的大段抬杠都清了啊？他也认为这段冗长得问题百出，读起来都困难，我建议提升一下阅读包容性，否则我们睁眼所见的大部分文字都没法看。


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## albert_laosong

是的，有些本来挺平常或挺自然的语句拿出来细看的话，可能往往就越读越觉得有问题。就这个句子来说的话，我倒没有觉得那句话有任何堆砌辞藻的地方，是一句很正常的话，即便那些称赞的语句也是挺平常的话，唯一可能稍有点不平常的是“之手笔” 和“别样的风采”，但这两个肯定谈不上是什么华丽辞藻或cliche之类，而且放在原句中也是很适合的，没有突兀之感。

从结构来说，我觉得想表达那样一个比较复杂的意思（因为加了那些夸赞的语句），句子结构必然会复杂一点儿，但实际上作者用的那个结构是很平常的，不难懂，也不会觉得拗口。


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## Orlanada

brofeelgood said:


> It's perfectly all right to disagree with someone or even challenge them (within the bounds of etiquette of course) in WR forums, but everyone ought to have the decency to substantiate their criticisms with specifics. Slagging off what appears to be a published article with a litany of condemnations and not bothering to explain the rationale behind them serves no useful purpose at all.


您的批评有道理，我这里态度确实粗鲁。
就我个人来说，评价大陆80年代至今的散文时，流畅与用词精准是我最看重的。这句话里，一是主语的问题。“周末静下来......之外”这部分的主语是“我”，到了“还有更多出自大师之手笔的精彩作品”这句，主语就成了“图像资料里（的内容）”，如果这句话到此为止，主语只这般隐隐换了一次，还算可以接受，因为这是口语里常见的表达（虽说这在大陆的语文教学里可算“偷换主语”的病句）。但在后面的“我们也曾经有幸一睹他们别样的风采”里，主语又成了“我们”。一个句子，来来回回主语换了三个——这是我说它笨拙的原因。
而之所以说其浮夸，主要是因为它用词的重复。"宝库”“鼎鼎大名”“杰作““大师之手笔”“精彩”“有幸一睹“”别样的风采”......我怕哪个建筑听了这些都要脸红了。对我来说，如果是表强调，摘出一两个词，搭配好足矣。而像原句中这样扎堆般地放在一起，不仅无强调之效用，反而让读者对其麻木，让这些词语失去了它原本的力量。另外，我虽然不曾看到原文，但可以设想这句话承担了承上启下的作用。既然只是一个过渡，并非文章中画龙点睛之笔，何必要如此复杂，如此苛求华丽？
如果要我重述这段话，在没有看到上下文的情况下，我应该会如此写：
周末静下来，抽空细细翻看了这几年四方游历所得的图像资料，这才发现其中除了那些久负盛名的建筑之外，还有如此多的大师之作。


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## brofeelgood

Brilliant, thanks for coming back to elaborate. I've found the original article. If anyone's interested, it's here: https://www.wenxuecity.com/blog/201905/65237/22998.html

文章里所提到的是被誉为 "Last Master Of High Modernist Architecture" 贝聿铭先生的建筑作品.


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## albert_laosong

Orlanada said:


> 您的批评有道理，我这里态度确实粗鲁。
> 就我个人来说，评价大陆80年代至今的散文时，流畅与用词精准是我最看重的。这句话里，一是主语的问题。“周末静下来......之外”这部分的主语是“我”，到了“还有更多出自大师之手笔的精彩作品”这句，主语就成了“图像资料里（的内容）”，如果这句话到此为止，主语只这般隐隐换了一次，还算可以接受，因为这是口语里常见的表达（虽说这在大陆的语文教学里可算“偷换主语”的病句）。但在后面的“我们也曾经有幸一睹他们别样的风采”里，主语又成了“我们”。一个句子，来来回回主语换了三个——这是我说它笨拙的原因。
> 而之所以说其浮夸，主要是因为它用词的重复。"宝库”“鼎鼎大名”“杰作““大师之手笔”“精彩”“有幸一睹“”别样的风采”......我怕哪个建筑听了这些都要脸红了。对我来说，如果是表强调，摘出一两个词，搭配好足矣。而像原句中这样扎堆般地放在一起，不仅无强调之效用，反而让读者对其麻木，让这些词语失去了它原本的力量。另外，我虽然不曾看到原文，但可以设想这句话承担了承上启下的作用。既然只是一个过渡，并非文章中画龙点睛之笔，何必要如此复杂，如此苛求华丽？
> 如果要我重述这段话，在没有看到上下文的情况下，我应该会如此写：
> 周末静下来，抽空细细翻看了这几年四方游历所得的图像资料，这才发现其中除了那些久负盛名的建筑之外，还有如此多的大师之作。


我几乎没有什么文字修养，也从来不喜欢读散文随笔之类，但我觉得中国散文随笔或评论之类的文字，如果像这样进行语法分析的话，那么很可能在大师级的文字中也能找到大把的所谓“语法错误”或“笨拙”了。
中国文字的精彩之处我觉得就在于松散的语法结构所能给予的那种随性，如果处处都要考虑主谓宾的话，我觉得可能真写不出来什么好文字了，因为讲究语法的话中文可能确实不是英文或其他更讲究语法的文字的对手。

然后，也真没觉得原文的文字有什么浮夸，虽然一开始并不知道作者具体说的是什么，但肯定是世界著名的大师级作品，这种作品用那些文字真没有什么浮夸的。
原文虽然用了很多夸赞的话，但很自然，也很耐读，并没有突兀或堆砌辞藻的感觉，反而是你改写后的文字，着实有点让人读不下去。


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