# Istambul = Into the TOWN



## franknagy

I have read a book about the peoples around the Black Sea.
There was stated that the Turkish name of Byzantion = Istambul comes from the Greek expression *"into the Town" *because the Greeks living around it from the Peloponesos to Trapezunt named it simply *"THE TOWN*".
I do not remember the exact Greek phase so I write here _"eis ton polis"_.
Please give me written it Greek letters.

Regards
    Frank


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## Perseas

_ΕΙΣ ΤΗΝ ΠΟΛΙΝ
εις την πόλιν_
_istinpolin_


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## franknagy

Thank you, Perseas, for the answer.
I have related questions better to start them in a new thread.

Regards
   Frank


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## sotos

The final ι(ν) was not pronounced by many and the same happens today in rural areas. It would sound like "στην  πολ' ", pretty close to (i)stanbul.


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## shawnee

See also this discussion: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2113155&highlight=Istanbul


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## franknagy

The biggest and most famous town of the Eastern Roman Empire was Byzantium. I accept the explanation that the Greek people mentioned it as "The Town", especially when it was the last and only remained town of the Eastern Roman Empire.
The Turkish people have heard more often "_'stinpolin" than to "to Byzantium" in peace times before the conquest.

_The Hungarian name of the Turkish capital in the XVI-XVIIth century was Sztambul_ which corresponds to 'stinpol'.
_


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## shawnee

Your persistent underrating of the importance of the Byzantine *CITY*, (not 'town' by any stretch of the imagination!) is beginning to sound a little suspect. What are you implying?


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## franknagy

Excuse me, CITY means a big town = metropolis, megapolis, not the center of a town?


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## bearded

Hello
So far, I had believed that 'Istambul' was the turkish version of Konstantinoupolis (pron. Konstandinoupoli), which would explain the presence of the a vowel in Istambul.  Is it totally impossible ?


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## shawnee

franknagy said:


> Excuse me, CITY means a big town = metropolis, megapolis, not the center of a town?



You are excused. But I fail to undestand what is meant here.


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## bearded

So far, nobody has replied to my above post # 9 suggesting that 'Istambul' might be a corruption of the Greek name Konstantinoupolis.  I would like to point out that this hypothesis is not far-fetched or foolish, since it is also admitted as possible by Wikipedia.
From you experts I would like to know which one of the two origins is more probable (Konstantinoupolis or istinboli).  Thank you and a Happy New Year to all of you.


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## franknagy

I have started this thread based on Neal Ascherson's book: "The Black Sea".
The author's father was a young officer on the board of a British warsip helping to flee white Russians army in Novorossiysk when the Red Army encircled the city.
The author himself returned there when Gorbachev fell.
He sails in his book around the Black Sea in time and space and shows the history of the nations living and used to live around it. His selection is not complete in my point of view: Poland is included based on the Sarmata myth of the Polish noblesse but the Hungarian tribes wandering on the North side of Black See and Azov Sea were omitted, the Romanian and Bulgarian facts were also neglected.
He has painted a very dark picture about the pollution, the over-fishing.
The moral of the story is also sad: 
One ruling nation or dictator is devastating some scapegoat peoples in great empires.
Every nations are killing each other in a mosaic of small successor states.


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## Rallino

In Turkish, due to the vowel harmony, there is no way _istinbul_ would ever become _istanbul. _The previous one (istinbul) just sounds easier on the ear.
Is it possible that, back in the era, _towards the city_ was pronounced as _is-tæn-poli_, hence the modern-day name of the city? Do you happen to know since when the letter η has been (being) pronounced as *i*?


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## Apollodoros

I had always thought Istanbul is just a corruption of Konstantinoúpoli. Then I read about the theory of Istanbul coming from eis tin poli (istimbóli) and ever since I cannot make up my mind and favor one of them 

This is why:

i.
Initial I - similar pattern using a vocalic augment preceding a consonant cluster is used for creation other Turkish names of conquered cities, namely Izmir (Σμύρνη, Smirni) and Üsküp (Skopje), added to match more the phonemic structure of Turkish, which does not seem to like such clusters at the beginning of the words. It has to be noted that the preposition eis in spoken Greek evolved to single s- completely dropping the inital i sound and attaching the following definite article which became mandatory (if the experts in Greek could please supply when?)

ii.
If the above stands back in 14th/15th century then the phrase 'to (towards) Smyrna' would need to be εις τη(ν) Σμύρνη > στη Σμύρνη (pronounced: stismirni or stizmirni) and according to the 'eis tin poli' theory I would expect Istizmir/Istazmir in Turkish

iii.
There is a consistent 'a' in Istanbul which is even accented and as Rallino says above, it does not fit in the Turkish vocal harmony - the original pronunciation of η in την as a closed long 'e' was replaced by 'i' sound by the end of antiquity many centuries before Turkic tribes even appeared in Asia Minor, so the presence of 'a' seems to support the KonSTANtinoupoli theory

iv. if the preposition εις had not require an article and had not yet developed to a single σ' then the 'eis tin poli' theory seems valid too (omitting the 'a'), supported by examples Izmir (εις Σμύρνην), Iznik (εις Νίκαιαν), Izmit (είς Νικομέδειαν).


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## apmoy70

I'm not personally convinced that the presence of İ in İzmir is not based on Turkish phonemic structure, but the İznik = Εἰς Νίκαιαν, İzmit = Εἰς (Νικο)Μήδειαν support the theory that Εἰς τὴν Πόλιν = İstanbul. İzmir is similar structurally to Σπάρτη = İsparta. 


Rallino said:


> In Turkish, due to the vowel harmony, there is no way _istinbul_ would ever become _istanbul. _The previous one (istinbul) just sounds easier on the ear.
> Is it possible that, back in the era, _towards the city_ was pronounced as _is-tæn-poli_, hence the modern-day name of the city? Do you happen to know since when the letter η has been (being) pronounced as *i*?


Hi Rallino, Teodorsson suggests that the process of iotacism of η from /e:/ to /i:/ and then to /i/ is a slow process that begins in the Classical era (Allen claims it's post-classical) as it's demonstrated by the dozens of instances of orthographic variation in Attic epigraphic data where /e:/ tends to close to /i:/  (η is written ι, and vice-versa). By the mid to late 1st c. BCE the iotacism of η is far advanced. You do the math


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## Rallino

Γεια σου, apmoy! 
Κατάλαβα  Ευχαριστώ πολύ φίλε μου!


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