# Dottore - appellativo di cortesia



## La vita e bella

I am in the midst of reading Donna Leon's excellent detective series and the protagonist is a Venetian mid-level police detective. Everyone addresses him as Dottore. Can anyone explain why—I've not seen any reference to him being a doctor of any kind.

Thanks


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## sugar92

In Italy when someone get a degree, he/she earns the title "dottore". So it makes me suppose that this character have a degree (in law presumably) and the people got used to call him 'dottore' from this.


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## Gianfry

Every graduate is a "dottore".
You might even not be a graduate, but the populace will likely address you as "dottore" if you have a job of some importance, like being a detective.
How would you translate that into Eglish, then?


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## Tunalagatta

Hi 

It's actually listed in the dictionary: 





> *dottore *_doctor (any university degree)_ _in addressing a man_



Please use the search function before opening a new thread, thank you.

*How do I perform a search in the forum?*

EDIT I think this is a peculiarly Italian cultural practice and not directly translatable into English.


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## Cattivo

Gianfry said:


> How would you translate that into Eglish, then?



That's easy...Mr. or Ms.  And even that's only if we like you


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## Gianfry

Cattivo said:


> That's easy...Mr. or Ms.  And even that's only if we like you


I reckon they would say "Sir", in this case.
Example:
Ascolti, Dottore ---> Listen, Sir
Unfortunately, the sociological nuance seems to get lost in translation...


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## pescara

In this case, we would refer to the man as Detective XXX.

Ciao.


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## gandolfo

If it were in the UK a policeman of mid level, apart from "Sir" maybe addressed as "Governor" or "Guv'nor" especially if he works closely with his team and has a more personalised relationship A bit like Montalbano and Mimì


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## Gianfry

Calling a perfect stranger "dottore" by default, just because they look "important" is certainly part of our culture. I think we should get rid of it, though, soon or later...
Sometimes it tends to get really ridiculous. All the "parcheggiatori abusivi" (poorly translated into English as "unlicensed car-park attendants ) in my area would call "dottore" almost _any _driver, just to flatter and squeeze money out of them...

EDIT:
A proposito: anche "signor" funziona come "dottor" e "ingegner"!


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## ValentinaF

Gianfry said:


> Calling a perfect stranger "dottore" by default, just because they look "important" is certainly part of our culture. I think we should get rid of it, though, soon or later...
> Sometimes it tends to get really ridiculous. All the "parcheggiatori abusivi" (poorly translated into English as "unlicensed car-park attendants ) in my area would call "dottore" almost _any _driver, just to flatter and squeeze money out of them...
> 
> That's exactly what I wanted to say! And I perfectly agree with you: we are ridiculous, sometimes, but it's undeniable that some titles such as "Dottor" and "Ingegner" are used even if you're not a doctor or an engineer or just for a servile disposition or to flatter. That's the truth, even if it isn't good.
> Returning to the original post, this is the reason why in the Donna Leon's book the detective is called "Dottore".
> 
> EDIT:
> A proposito: anche "signor" funziona come "dottor" e "ingegner"!


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## Gianfry

Valentina, you say "Returning to the original post, this is the reason why in the Donna Leon's book the detective is called "Dottore". "
Well, that's exactly what I said back in post #3


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## ValentinaF

Well Gianfry, I think that after 20 posts, it would be clearer to La vita è bella the idea, no? 
Please, don't be angry with me! I can't make my brain work SO well in August!!


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## joanvillafane

I think I understand the use of the term as a title of courtesy, but I don't think I've had an answer to my question - are there any medical doctors or dottori di ricerca out there who care to comment on the overuse of this term in Italy and how to distinguish the higher degree??


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## ValentinaF

Joanvillafane, we have already answer to your question in the posts above. EVERYONE knows this "use", and if someone wants to underline that he's a "dottore di ricerca" it simply says it! "Dottore" may include a "dottorato di ricerca", but also a simple degree. However, it is only used if you want specify the higher degree (e.g. in your CV or during an interview). If you call a "Dottore di ricerca" simply "Dottore" it is not a mistake, it's only more generic.


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## joanvillafane

I appreciate your input Valentina.  I am still curious to hear the opinion of an Italian who actually has this degree. (PhD or medical doctor)


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## Gianfry

joanvillafane said:


> I think I understand the use of the term as a title of courtesy, but I don't think I've had an answer to my question - are there any medical doctors or dottori di ricerca out there who care to comment on the overuse of this term in Italy and how to distinguish the higher degree??


Hi joan.
I'm a "dottore di ricerca", but I only have the right to the status of "dottore" if, say, someone is introducing me to someone else. "Le presento il dottor Gianfranco X". You should rephrase a bit to let your interlocutor get the relevant information, if needed: "Le presento Gianfranco X. E' un dottore di ricerca". You would hardly listen to someone saying "Le presento il dottore di ricerca Gianfranco X".
Personally, I do never sign my letters with "Dr. Gianfranco X". "Gianfranco X" is more than enough.  Actually, I often sign with just Gianfranco or, just like now, with
G.


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## dirk_mdn

I add a little thing: you can be a  "Commissario di Polizia" only with a degree. So the title "Dottore" in this case is also formally correct.


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## nushin

Ciao,

Is it possible that another meaning of the word "dottore", besides Doctor, to mean amico (mia amico/my friend/etc.)?

The reason that I am asking is that, I was in an Italian restaurant and the waiter kept calling me dottore. Dottore is everything OK, dottore do you want dolce (dessert), etc.; and in my profession, I am not a Doctor. So, I got a feeling that, it means "my friend"; am I correct?

In some countries (e.g., Iran), calling someone doctor/engineer and knowing that you aren't one, is kind of insulting, or making fun of you.

Grazie per la risposta in anticipo.

Ciao,
Nushin


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## Gianfry

Hi Nushin, and welcome to the forum!
No, it doesn't mean "amico"  It is just a common way among waiters (but not only them) to address their customers, as a way of flattering them


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## stella_maris_74

_Hi Nushin, welcome from me too 
I've merged your thread with an existing one about the same topic. You might find it useful to read the replies that are now above your own post, too 

Moderator_


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## london calling

Hello and welcome, Nushin.

I agree with Gianfry, of course. It's common here. They also call people "ingegnere" in the same way. Don't be offended by it.


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## Gianfry

Sì, la scelta fra "dottore", "ingegnere", e a volte "avvocato" dipende probabilmente dal look


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## london calling

Gianfry said:


> Sì, la scelta fra "dottore", "ingegnere", e a volte "avvocato" dipende probabilmente dal look


E sì. Mio marito era un "dottore", ma mi ricordo che c'era un cameriere che lo chiamava sempre "ingegnere" , ben sapendo che non era laureato in ingegneria, perché "dottore" gli sembrava riduttivo!


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## chipulukusu

But I think also in the UK or in the US people from the lower section of the social ladder often overuse the term _Sir_ (Yes Sir, no Sir, Thank you Sir), and I don't think that a baronet or a knight may get frustrated for the abuse of the term!

I know that the abuse of the term _dottore_ is funny of us Italians, but we shoud not be unfair here!

By the way, if you happen to come to Italy carrying any musical instrument with you it's very likely you will be called "Maestro" at the restaurant...


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## Gianfry

Ma "Sir" significa semplicemente "signore", in quel caso...
Quanto a "maestro", invece, hai pienamente ragione


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## chipulukusu

Gianfry said:


> Ma "Sir" significa semplicemente "signore", in quel caso...
> Quanto a "maestro", invece, hai pienamente ragione



Si hai ragione Gianfry, mi sto un poco arrampicando sugli specchi... però a noi manca la distinzione tra _mister _e _sir_, e poichè appellare qualcuno come _signore_ in italiano appare molto _dismissive _(un pò come dire _hey mister_ in inglese...)... ecco pronto il _dottore_!


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## Sgt.Pepper

Hello all,
I am subtitling a movie set in Naples (Così parlò Bellavista, 1984), and I can't come up with a translation for the use of the title "Dottore" given as a form of respect, also to people who may not necessarily hold a degree, and including complete strangers as well as friends. It is quite common in Southern Italy and also in Rome, I think. Some examples from the movie:

A TAXI DRIVER: "Dottore, è la prima volta che venite a Napoli?"
A DOORMAN to a new tenant: "Dottore, questo è il terzo piano."
A FRIEND/CLOSE ACQUAINTANCE (they've met about 4 months ago): "Dottore, Patrizia è al settimo mese. Cosa mi consiglia, questo bambino lo faccio nascere a Napoli o a Milano?"

"Doctor" or "Doc" don't sound right to me in none of these situations. "Sir" is a bit too formal, I think (some of these characters are actually being overly friendly); "Mister" could possibly work for the first sentence, but not the others, right?; and I really can't think of a similar word one would use in English to address a friend. Maybe I just omit it?


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## V. P.

I remember in London, they use the slang  word "Guv'nor" to refer to a man you don't know and who is older than you, in an informal context. 
For example in a greengrocer's :  "What can I get you, Guv'nor / Guv?"
"Sir" is correct in a formal situation.


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## rrose17

I think this is a tough one as it's so culturally related. "Guv" comes close in my opinion but is exclusively British. Would dropping in "professor" work here? It gives an allusion to the person being addressed as being more educated. The only thing is I could see one character using the expression "professor" or maybe two but not as an across the board form of address. I think you'd have to leave it out sometimes or mix it up with "sir".


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## Sgt.Pepper

Thank you both! Yes, "Guv" if it was targeted to a British audience (I'm in Toronto), and "Professor" would be a nice option in general  - unfortunately for this movie it doesn't work because  Bellavista, the protagonist, is an actual professor, so it would get very confusing


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## theartichoke

Tough one, as rrose says. I think I'd probably drop in a "sir" for the taxi driver and the doorman ("sir," especially if repeated, can sound irritatingly faux-obsequious instead of formal), and leave the _dottore _out altogether for the friend. Addressing someone as "Mister" makes me think of a child speaking to an adult stranger in an American movie from the 1950s.


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## Sgt.Pepper

theartichoke said:


> Addressing someone as "Mister" makes me think of a child speaking to an adult stranger in an American movie from the 1950s.


I can't unhear it now!


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## ain'ttranslationfun?

theartichoke said:


> Addressing someone as "Mister" makes me think of a child speaking to an adult stranger in an American movie from the 1960s.



Not only in movies, but in everyday life, too! (Kids nowadays still probably wouldn't say "Sir".) When Brunetti introduced himself, he would give his title, and that's how people would address him.


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## giginho

joanvillafane said:


> I appreciate your input Valentina.  I am still curious to hear the opinion of an Italian who actually has this degree. (PhD or medical doctor)



Joan, I've noticed your post is still unanswered after more than 10 years....that's unbelievable and unacceptable! 

I think we have to distinguish the car valet's "doctor" (used for squeeze money) and the generic "doctor" used in formal/working context. 

I mean: we don't care if someone call us "doctor" in situations where they are just trying to flatter us. Is the same as in the US when someone calls you "my friend". Is just a way of addressing you.

If in a generic formal/working situation someone calls me "doctor" it is up to my sensibility to feel pleased or annoyed. I mean, if you want to address me with some kind of "title", just be sure to use the right one. For example: I am an engineer and I get mad if someone - in a working environment who knows that I am an engineer - calls me "doctor". 
Same goes for lawyers, I think.
To deserve the title of "engineer" or "lawyer" you have to graduate (master degree) and then pass the bar exam(s) (and register to the bar association....paying fees and so on).

We do not have a specific term for someone who has a PhD and I (personally) do not care about being called "PhD" in a working / formal international environment, being a PhD myself.

I know this can be extremily weird for an American.....you do not have this kind of problems!!


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## theartichoke

giginho said:


> We do not have a specific term for someone who has a PhD and I (personally) do not care about being called "PhD" in a working / formal international environment, being a PhD myself.
> 
> I know this can be extremily weird for an American.....you do not have this kind of problems!!


Americans do have a related problem, given that once one earns a PhD, the title "Mr." or "Ms." is supposed to give way to "Dr.". Some people disapprove, especially when the "Dr." is female: Op-Ed Urging Jill Biden To Drop The 'Dr.' Sparks Outrage Online


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## joanvillafane

Thanks for following up Gigi - nice to see you!  There's something a little strange about this thread, though.  You refer to my "unanswered question" referenced in post #13 but I can't see the original question in this thread.  Could it have been deleted/merged? not important, but still a mystery.


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## giginho

theartichoke said:


> Americans do have a related problem, given that once one earns a PhD, the title "Mr." or "Ms." is supposed to give way to "Dr.". Some people disapprove, especially when the "Dr." is female: Op-Ed Urging Jill Biden To Drop The 'Dr.' Sparks Outrage Online



Well we have "Dottoressa" instead of Dottore, so women are respected but this has nothing to do with PhD, as said.
I bumped into Esq., sometimes, which makes me laugh since it sounds medieval to my ears but as far as I've understood it has nothing to do with academic titles.
 We have troubles with "avvocato" and "ingegnere" which do not have a masculine vs feminine version....but this is another story which deserves a new thread.


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## Paulfromitaly

> *NOTE:
> 
> Please keep in mind this thread is about "dottore" when it is NOT intended as a title.
> There are already quite a few other threads that deal with "dottore" as a qualification.*



dottore - medico
dottore (titolo)
Dottore di Ricerca-Patrocinante in Cassazione
dottore in scienze della traduzione
Dottore in scienze naturali
dottore magistrale
Dottore magistrale in Ingegneria Meccanica-Energia
Dottore/dottoressa in business card
dottore/dottoressa/PhD
Dr. (dottore laureato)
Egregio Dottore/professore


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## ain'ttranslationfun?

To sum up: "Doctor" is not a usual title of respect when addressing a man (or a woman) in English as it is in Italian.


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## giginho

ain'ttranslationfun? said:


> To sum up: "Doctor" is not a usual title of respect when addressing a man (or a woman) in English as it is in Italian.



Mmmm, well, not really. I mean, 90% of people do not address other as "doctor" showing them respect. It CAN be done, of course, but there are people that normally use this word and other that don't.

Car valets (expecially if they are unauthorised and expecially in South Italy or if they are of southern origin) can use "doctor" to address a man, and they usually do.

In shops (even a luxury shop) or everyday situation it is almost impossibile to hear someone addressing a man as "doctor" (unless they know he is a doctor).

Hope this helps


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## Paulfromitaly

Calling someone "dottore" when we don't know if he is actually a dottore is a sort of deference which can be, depending on the context, true respect, courtesy or just convenience.


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## V. P.

Paulfromitaly said:


> Calling someone "dottore" when we don't know if he is actually a dottore is a sort of deference which can be, depending on the context, true respect, courtesy or just convenience.


Yes, in fact in Southern Italy, we often hear: "Dotto'..."


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## Starless74

Paulfromitaly said:


> Calling someone "dottore" when we don't know if he actually is a dottore
> is a sort of deference which can be, depending on the context, true respect, courtesy or just convenience.


In the area of Rome, even slightly teasing (_dottò_, as V.P. just said).

[ cross-posted ]


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## london calling

V. P. said:


> Yes, in fact in Southern Italy, we often hear: "Dotto'..."


Yes, I'm often called Dottore'.


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