# break, break down, get broken



## Xavier da Silva

Hello everyone,

I'd like to know which of these three verbs *sound more natural/common *when used *with smaller devices*(DVD Players, Stereos, Cell phones, etc). Please take a look.


- This DVD Player is of good quality. It seldom *breaks*.
- This DVD Player is of good quality. It seldom *breaks down*.
- This DVD Player is of good quality. It seldom *gets broken*.

_My opinion_: I think "*break*" is more common/natural because it is a shorter option. What do you think?

*Break, break down, get broken* _definition_: stop working properly


Thank you in advance!


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## heypresto

All three are common and sound natural, and they could all be used in this context. But to me there are a subtle differences:


1  To *break* implies some physical damage. A part falls off, for instance, or cracks.

2  To *break down *simply means it stops working. It _may_ stop working because of some physical damage, but not necessarily.

3  To *get broken* means to suffer some damage, almost certainly physical.

I hope that helps


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## PaulQ

Perhaps a little more commonly heard: This DVD Player is of good quality well-made. It seldom *breaks**. stops working.*


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## pwmeek

I think that many AE speakers would use the results rather than the event to describe this. "*This <device> seldom needs repairs/repairing.*"


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## Ivan_I

Do TV-sets break or break down?



heypresto said:


> 1  To *break* implies some physical damage. A part falls off, for instance, or cracks.


The washing machine’s broken again. break | meaning of break in Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English | LDOCE

Does that mean that if fell apart or a piece fell of or just stopped working?


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## heypresto

Ivan_I said:


> Do TV-sets break or break down?


They _stop working_.



Ivan_I said:


> Does that mean that if fell apart or a piece fell of or just stopped working?


It's stopped working.


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## sound shift

I agree with hp. I wouldn't use "break" or "break down" for a television set that had stopped working I would use 'stop working', or perhaps a more colloquial expression.


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## Ivan_I

sound shift said:


> I agree with hp. I wouldn't use "break" or "break down" for a television set that had stopped working I would use 'stop working', or perhaps a more colloquial expression.


OK. But a dictionary gives this example:
The washing machine’s broken again.

I think they would use it for a TV-set as well.


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## heypresto

Ivan_I said:


> I think they would use it for a TV-set as well.


I doubt it, but I guess we will never know.


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## Ivan_I

heypresto said:


> I doubt it, but I guess we will never know.


Probably I will write them and they might answer.


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## heypresto

Ivan_I said:


> Probably I will write them and they might answer.


It won't make any difference to our answers. We are not going to suddenly change the way we have spoken for 60 years.


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## Ivan_I

heypresto said:


> They _stop working_.



So, how come  DVD Players can break or break down, but TVs can't?


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## heypresto

I don't know. I'm not sure they can. (I would say that they stop working.) But if they can, I guess it's because they tend to be smaller, and some have moving parts that can break.

You can talk about TVs breaking/breaking down if you like, but you'll receive some strange looks.

You really must just accept that we speak idiomatically, and we _say_ certain things, and _don't say_ certain things. Trying to find any logic, or reasons we don't say certain things, is bound to be frustrating, as I'm sure you've discovered. It's better to accept and learn idiomatic English than to try to change it into how you think it should be.

I'm sure it's the same in Russian.


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## Ivan_I

heypresto said:


> I don't know. I'm not sure they can. (I would say that they stop working.) But if they can, I guess it's because they tend to be smaller, and some have moving parts that can break.
> 
> You can talk about TVs breaking/breaking down if you like, but you'll receive some strange looks.


I can accept something definite not a changing idea all the time. It was you who said that DVD recorder can break down. 


heypresto said:


> All three are common and sound natural, and they could all be used in this context. But to me there are a subtle differences:
> 2  To *break down *simply means it stops working. It _may_ stop working because of some physical damage, but not necessarily.


If a DVD recorder can break down (according you) why would I receive a strange look if I said a TV had broken down? 
Do I have to learn every possible appliance separately? I doubt that.


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## heypresto

Ivan_I said:


> It was you who said that DVD recorder can break down.



I said that this sentence sounds natural:  _This DVD Player is of good quality. It seldom _*breaks down*. And that it _could _be used in the context of the OP. 



Ivan_I said:


> why would I receive a strange look if I said a TV had broken down?


Because it's not what we say, and you will sound strange if you say it. (How many times do you have to hear this before you will accept it? )



Ivan_I said:


> Do I have to learn every possible appliance separately? I doubt that.


Yes, I think you do. I don't doubt it.


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## Ivan_I

heypresto said:


> I said that this sentence sounds natural:  _This DVD Player is of good quality. It seldom _*breaks down*. And that it _could _be used in the context of the OP.



_This *DVD Player* is of good quality. It seldom _*breaks down*.  (natural)
_This *TV *is of good quality. It seldom _*breaks down*. (induces strange looks)
Right?


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## heypresto

Some DVD players have moving parts, and I guess it's why it doesn't sound as strange to say they seldom 'break down', but (yet again) it sounds very odd to say that a TV breaks down. _Please _believe me.


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## You little ripper!

_The TV’s on the blink! _is what I hear most here.


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## Ivan_I

You little ripper! said:


> _The TV’s on the blink! _is what I hear most here.


Thank you, but the point was not to substitute if for another synonym.


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## You little ripper!

Ivan_I said:


> Thank you, but the point was not to substitute if for another synonym.


In that case I won’t bother commenting in any of your threads in future.


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## Ivan_I

You little ripper! said:


> In that case I won’t bother commenting in any of your posts in future.


You are welcome. I respect your choice.


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## kentix

Stopped working is the common term for smaller things that no longer work for no visible reason. If you know the actual reason you might name it specifically.

_My TV stopped working. It doesn't come on at all any more. I'm not sure why.

My TV got fried by an electrical surge. It comes on but the screen doesn't show a picture._

I wouldn't use broke or broke down.


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## Ivan_I

kentix said:


> I wouldn't use broke or broke down.


I suppose you would react the same way as I do if you were told that in German for example it's OK to say:

The washing machine’s broken again.
The DVD recorder has broken down.
But it's not OK to say:
The TV has broken down.

Heypresto thinks that I am stubborn and don't trust natives' answers. But it's not the case. The problem is that I hear different opinions including ones form dictionaries.


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## kentix

_The washing machine’s broken again._

I could say that but I wouldn't say these:

_The washing machine broke down again.
The washing machine broke again._

But I would normally just say:

_The washing machine stopped working again._

If someone asked if they could use the washing machine I would tell them:

_Sorry. It's not working right now._


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## heypresto

Ivan_I said:


> Heypresto thinks that I am stubborn and don't trust natives' answers. But it's not the case. The problem is that I hear different opinions including ones form dictionaries.


As I said, you can say whatever you like. Just don't be surprised if you get a funny look when saying that the TV has broken down.


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## Ivan_I

heypresto said:


> As I said, you can say whatever you like. Just don't be surprised if you get a funny look when saying that the TV has broken down.


I think you should say that to the dictionary in which this sentence. " _The washing machine’s broken again._ "


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## JulianStuart

Ivan_I said:


> I think you should say that to the dictionary in which this sentence. " _The washing machine’s broken again._ "


Others have said, and I agree, that that sentence is fine.  Adding "down" makes it sound strange.


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## Barque

"Broken" and "broken down" are different terms.

I can accept "The washing machine's broken again" (where the apostrophe-_s _means _is_, not _has_) but I wouldn't use "broken down" for a DVD player, a washing machine, a TV, a radio, a fridge or an oven. A car can break down however.

_Cross-posted._


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## Ivan_I

Maybe Ivan_I is seeing things... well, what about these people who wrote "break down"?

Here is a British website
My tv has broken down and i'd like to buy a new one but live

My tv has *broken down* and i'd like to buy a new one but live*.*

Here is an American website Don’t adjust your set: Bold Samsung ad will make you think your TV is busted

CAPTION under the picture: 
An innovative Samsung ad airing this weekend will make millions of people think their TVs *have broken down*.

Help - TV has broken down & seller is refusing to refund...

I purchased a TV from Pixmania (online retailer, part of the Dixons Group) back in December ('09). Since then it *has now broken* down 3 times, the two most recent occasions being exactly the same fault. Since the 15th July we have had a working TV for just 2 weeks 

I suppose they speak poor English.


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## Barque

No one's saying "broken down" would never be heard. Even native speakers (of any language) don't always use the right or usual terms.

I'm willing to wager that the majority of regular fluent English speakers would prefer "stopped working" to "broken down" for those things. There's no way to prove it of course. Do you want to go by what most people who've answered your specific question on an English forum say or what a few random people on the internet have said?


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## kentix

I would say:

Since then it has stopped working (right) three times.​
I wouldn't include "right" if it doesn't come on at all but would include it if a specific function or part was acting up.


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## JulianStuart

Ivan_I said:


> Maybe Ivan_I is seeing things... well, what about these people who wrote "break down"?
> 
> Here is a British website
> My tv has broken down and i'd like to buy a new one but live
> 
> My tv has *broken down* and i'd like to buy a new one but live*.*
> 
> Here is an American website Don’t adjust your set: Bold Samsung ad will make you think your TV is busted
> 
> CAPTION under the picture:
> An innovative Samsung ad airing this weekend will make millions of people think their TVs *have broken down*.
> 
> Help - TV has broken down & seller is refusing to refund...
> 
> I purchased a TV from Pixmania (online retailer, part of the Dixons Group) back in December ('09). Since then it *has now broken* down 3 times, the two most recent occasions being exactly the same fault. Since the 15th July we have had a working TV for just 2 weeks
> 
> I suppose they speak poor English.


The way you present your challenges ideas, you seem to think that everyone speaks the same way (or should) and that if one person says "this phrase is strange" that everyone else will agree.  That's not how English works.  "Some do some don't" is a very common situation in English


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## Ivan_I

Barque said:


> I wouldn't use "broken down" for a DVD player


You wouldn't, Heypresto would.


heypresto said:


> All three are common and sound natural, and they could all be used in this context. But to me there are a subtle differences:
> 2  To *break down *simply means it stops working. It _may_ stop working because of some physical damage, but not necessarily.



This dictionary would: break down | meaning of break down in Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English | LDOCE
*The printing machines are always breaking down.*



JulianStuart said:


> The way you present your challenges ideas, you seem to think that everyone speaks the same way (or should) and that if one person says "this phrase is strange" that everyone else will agree.  That's not how English works.


But why do the contributors in this thread *categorically *state that "break down" with TV is weird, funny and not idiomatic? Probably, it would have been more apt not to have been so categorical on the matter? I always double-check things.


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## JulianStuart

Ivan_I said:


> But why do the contributors in this thread *categorically *state that "break down" with TV is weird, funny and not idiomatic? Probably, it would have been more apt not to have been so categorical on the matter? I always double-check things.


To them it DOES sound weird, to others maybe not - that's the point.


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## Barque

Ivan_I said:


> You wouldn't, Heypresto would.


He qualified his answer. See posts 15 and 17.



Ivan_I said:


> why do the contributors in this thread *categorically *state that "break down" with TV is weird, funny and not idiomatic?


Did we? I think posts 30 and 32 (and now 34) acknowledge that some people might say it, and all the other posts were personal opinions.


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## kentix

The next time I drive my TV down the road to the store and it dies on the way I will say it broke down.


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## Ivan_I

JulianStuart said:


> To them it DOES sound weird, to others maybe not - that's the point.


OK. But there is no one in this thread who has accepted "A TV broken down". No one. How come? 



Barque said:


> He qualified his answer. See posts 15 and 17.


Heypresto didn't retract her opinion on a DVD player. She said that it is OK to say "break down" with it.


Barque said:


> Did we? I think posts 30 and 32 (and now 34) acknowledge that some people might say it, and all the other posts were personal opinions.


Indeed you did, but only after I brought up the examples from the internet.... 
Thank you all. I think everything is clear.


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## Barque

Thinking more about it, I'm willing to agree that "broken down" sounds a little more acceptable for appliances with moving parts like washing machines and DVD players than for those without (as obviously) moving parts. And it sounds more acceptable for a washing machine than a DVD player. But again, that's my personal opinion, and I'd still prefer "stop working".


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## JulianStuart

Ivan_I said:


> OK. But there is no one in this thread who has accepted "A TV broken down". No one. *How come?*


There are no "rules".  The proportion of people who think A is weird but B is not, is often very hard to assess.  Some of your threads ask some version of  "I have seen this structure in context A.  I want to know why I can't use it in context B"  as if there was a specific prohibition that should be listed in dictionaries.  This thread is a good example of the variability and unpredictability of idioms and usage (the things that go beyond grammar rules), the very issues that were key drivers for this site to be created. I am in agreement with those who reserve broken down for larger things with major moving parts, like cars. In fact, I don't think I've used "broken down" for anything other than cars. But I'm not saying that's a rule or that someone else is wrong to use it for DVD players.


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## heypresto

Ivan_I said:


> The printing machines are always breaking down.


And that would be perfectly correct. Machines can break down,* TV's don't.*


Ivan_I said:


> OK. But there is no one in this thread who has accepted "A TV broken down". No one. How come?


*Because nobody says it*. How many more times must I say this? 

I'm outta here.


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## kentix

Broke down is generally used for mechanical things, especially those that provide transportation.

A TV is not primarily mechanical, it's electric and electronic, and it doesn't provide transportation. So the term doesn't fit. It fits better with a washing machine, which is primarily mechanical and has lots of moving parts. But the main image it brings to mind is that of a car on the side of the road with the hood/bonnet up.


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## DonnyB

A number of different members have given their considered opinion as to whether we would, in English, refer to a television as "breaking down" or "having broken down".  We can't in our forum speak for everyone, and neither can we explain why dictionaries define things in the way that they do.  It seems to me that further discussion is unlikely to prove fruitful, and I'm therefore now closing this thread.  Thanks to everyone for their contributions, which I hope Ivan has found of some help.  DonnyB - moderator.


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