# American Evangelist's "Fatwa" - Should the U.S. kill Chavez?



## Edwin

¿Puedes creerlo?



> Robertson, host of Christian Broadcasting Network's The 700 Club and founder of the Christian Coalition of America, called for the assassination of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez.



Video of his statement here.  
http://mediamatters.org/items/200508220006

No telling how he squares this with the ten commandments and Christ's teachings.  Incredible!


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## josama

Edwin said:
			
		

> ¿Puedes creerlo?
> 
> 
> 
> Video of his statement here.
> http://mediamatters.org/items/200508220006
> 
> No telling how he squares this with the ten commandments and Christ's teachings. Incredible!


 
I really can't...

And I have so many comments on that, that I'll need to rest a little, before I can make up my mind


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## Swettenham

Edwin said:
			
		

> ¿Puedes creerlo?
> 
> 
> 
> Video of his statement here.
> http://mediamatters.org/items/200508220006
> 
> No telling how he squares this with the ten commandments and Christ's teachings.  Incredible!


WOW!  Wow.  Wow. 

No me gusta.

Did he say Chavez will facilitate the infiltration of Muslim extremism? 

Come again?


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## Swettenham

I love how he was careless enough to mention "oil."  I heard a joke (maybe it was true ) that Operation Iraqi Freedom was originally slated to be called Operation Iraqi Liberation. 

And no, Robertson, we don't need to start another $200B war to create another political void, make life miserable for millions and further damage our reputation across the globe.

Again, we see the face of America's enemy: religious extremism.


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## chica11

I would like to say this guy is nuts and just forget about it but unfortunately this man has lots of followers in the United States and that's what is really scary.  Religious extremism is unfortunate and frightening no matter what religion it is. These so called religious leaders, I BELIEVE, are really more political leaders than religious leaders, because after all, what he is proposing is not Christian at all.  Sadly they use religion to get their opinion across.   The religious extremism right in this country (USA) must not be allowed to grow as much as it is growing now.  Or else soon we'll be in serious trouble and frankly we are already on that road.


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## ILT

Wow!!!

I think that the dictionary should be modified to include this as the definition of outrageous, ridiculous and senile.  I don't understand how he thinks he can compaginate murder with Christianism.


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## BasedowLives

this guy's a moron and in no way represents how many americans feel


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## Everness

Television evangelist Pat Robertson stated yesterday, "I think that we really ought to go ahead and do it...We have the ability to take him (Chavez) out." Click on link to read the complete article.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1097267,00.html

So the Ayatollah Robertson declared a fatwa on Chavez' ass! Who said that Christianity couldn't import ideas from Islamism? Well, at least Pat has the cojones to say what an entire Administration is thinking and wishing. 

I have a question. Isn't it against the law (forget about Christian love) to use your TV program to recommend that a president of a sovereign country be killed?

Ah, I think that Mr. Chavez' days on this world are numbered since the day he dared to call our president "pendejo"... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pendejo


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## Everness

Oh, Edwin me gano de mano!... Moderadores: sentíos en la libertad de matar este hilo!


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## Jana337

Everness said:
			
		

> Oh, Edwin me gano de mano!... Moderadores: sentíos en la libertad de matar este hilo!


I merged those two instead. Hope this is fine with everyone.

Jana


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## timpeac

Everness said:
			
		

> Ah, I think that Mr. Chavez' days on this world are numbered since the day he dared to call our president "pendejo"... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pendejo


 
I was talking about this "pendejo" business in the office the other day. The Argentinians are always calling each other pendejo and say that it is a very mild comment along the lines of "a silly billy". The Mexicans say that to them it is a lot stronger, more like "wanker". So they are of the opinion that the insult wasn't meant to be as bad as its translation suggested.

EDIT - Doh! Just read your link which bears out the above discussion.


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## josama

Everness said:
			
		

> Television evangelist Pat Robertson stated yesterday, "I think that we really ought to go ahead and do it...We have the ability to take him (Chavez) out." Click on link to read the complete article.
> 
> http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1097267,00.html
> 
> So the Ayatollah Robertson declared a fatwa on Chavez' ass! Who said that Christianity couldn't import ideas from Islamism? Well, at least Pat has the cojones to say what an entire Administration is thinking and wishing.
> 
> I have a question. Isn't it against the law (forget about Christian love) to use your TV program to recommend that a president of a sovereign country be killed?
> 
> Ah, I think that Mr. Chavez' days on this world are numbered since the day he dared to call our president "pendejo"... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pendejo


 
I don't think your dear president is a pendejo: HE'S A PENDEJAZO.

I don't like Chavez, either, but, shouldn't you argument in favor or against somebody with something more in your hands than "He insulted my president"?

Dear forum, or may I say, dear World: STOP being so radical. And start using your wits.


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## GenJen54

What's scary to me is that the current US administration continues to pander to the likes of Robertson and his Right-Wing (neo-con) cronies.   It's embarrassing that someone who calls himself a religious leader - and a CHRISTIAN - actually comes out and says things like this...and this is apparently not the first time. 

As Sweetenham astutely noted, America's greatest enemy is religious extremism...our own! 

Guess I'll get that passport ready (again)!


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## astronauta

Ahhhh, the delights of extremist religiousness.....

I wonder if any charges (of threat) will be laid against him or any criminal consequence for that matter; or will he be protected as an spiritual leader.... It's inadmissible.


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## Edwin

*Robertson catches hell for his comments *​
This article mentions several who have disassociated themselves from Robertson's comments and concludes with the following:



> A spokeswoman for Mr. Robertson said today that he is not giving interviews and had no further comment.
> 
> Mr. Robertson has a long history of setting off controversies with inflammatory remarks. In May he said the threat to the United States from activist judges was "probably more serious than a few bearded terrorists who fly into buildings." In October 2003, Mr. Robertson, said "maybe we need a very small nuke thrown" at State Department headquarters "to shake things up."



This is the same guy who said not too long ago that the widespread practice of homosexuality "will bring about terrorist bombs, it'll bring earthquakes, tornadoes and possibly a meteor."

And more about him can be found here: Wikipedia Biography of Pat Robertson


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## astronauta

Edwin said:
			
		

> the widespread practice of homosexuality "will bring about terrorist bombs, it'll bring earthquakes, tornadoes and possibly a meteor."



JUAAAAAAAAAAAAJUAJUAJUAJUAJUAAAAAAAAAAA

Lo que hay que oir, me parto de risa


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## timpeac

Edwin said:
			
		

> ​
> 
> 
> 
> the widespread practice of homosexuality "will bring about terrorist bombs, it'll bring earthquakes, tornadoes and possibly a meteor."


 


Wow - his boyfriend must be great in bed!​


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## Everness

I think that we Americans (con la excepción del que te jedi) should be very careful about tearing our clothes in dismay because Pat Robertson openly and unashamedly asked the US intelligence agencies to take care of Mr. Chavez. 

What are we reacting to? To the fact that this request came from a preacher or to the recommendation that the US kill a president democratically elected by its people? If we are appalled by the former, I invite you to do some research on some shady ways we conducted our foreign policy. Then you'll really have plenty of good reasons to be appalled. 

For instance, have you read this CIA declassified document? 

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB4/

And just imagine how many documents will never be declassified due to national security reasons...


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## astronauta

I am appalled at both Everness.

The link you provide is most interesting.

Timepac, good one!hehehehe.


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## lsp

BasedowLives said:
			
		

> this guy's a moron and in no way represents how many americans feel


No one person alone does. It would better for all if _everyone_, our friends and enemies alike (without and within) understood that.


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## fran kornbacher

I meant to tell Everness muy interesante tu hilo! yo como Venezolana agradesco enterarme de este tipo de informacion, ya que a veces no me pongo al tanto de lo que esta pasando


Gracias de nuevo por la informacion
Take care


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## Reili

Claro que no está bien pedir la cabeza de alguien, pero todos sabemos que la idea expresada no sólo existe en las películas de Hollywood...


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## Everness

At a news briefing, State Department Spokesman Sean McCormack said Mr. Robertson is a private citizen and that the United States government does not share his views. 

_"These comments are inappropriate," he said. "They do not represent the policy of the United States. And I would add that any accusations, or any idea that we are planning to take hostile action against Venezuela or the Venezuelan government, any ideas to that regard, are totally without fact and baseless."_

http://www.voanews.com/english/2005-08-23-voa54.cfm

Dicen que la risa es buena para la salud. Bueno, tengo que decirles que es cierto. Estaba constipado y leyendo estas declaraciones de McCormack me defequé de la risa.


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## Kelly B

Suppose you were an Al-Qaeda operative in Venezuela listening to that. Wouldn't it be tempting to do it yourself now, for the thrill of getting the USA blamed for it? What a position he has put us in.


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## Everness

http://www.boston.com/news/world/la...call_for_us_to_kill_chavez_criticized?mode=PF

_At the Pentagon, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said when asked about Robertson's comments: *''Our department doesn't do that kind of thing. It's against the law*..."_

Is it me, my TV screen, or Don's nose grew a couple of inches longer while making these statements?


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## Swettenham

timpeac said:
			
		

> Wow - his boyfriend must be great in bed!​


¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡JAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJA!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good one, timpeac! 

This morning, a local Spanish-language radio station (the only media I really pay attention to) was all abuzz about this issue.  One of the ladies on the program politely played devil's advocate, but you could tell they were all outraged.  They had clips from Latino folks on the street saying things like, "I can't believe he calls himself a Christian."  I'm glad so many of my compatriots (anglo- and hispanohablantes alike) recognize a false prophet when they see one.  

Robertson, take your cynical mixture of religion, politics and murder back to the Al Qaeda training camp where you got it from.


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## astronauta

Once a police officer banged on my door and questioned me and other neighbours in my bldg. wether if I had written a threatening note to a noisy neighbour that revs his monster truck (exhaust the size of a water pipe) in the middle of week-nights (the threat was to egg his truck, and I did not write it) and took my personal info down after a throrough and rather intimidating questioning arguing it was a criminal offense to threat anybody.

Will this guy undergo a similar procedure for his colossal threat?


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## josama

astronauta vegetariana said:
			
		

> Once a police officer banged on my door and questioned me and other neighbours in my bldg. wether if I had written a threatening note to a noisy neighbour that revs his monster truck (exhaust the size of a water pipe) in the middle of week-nights (the threat was to egg his truck, and I did not write it) and took my personal info down after a throrough and rather intimidating questioning arguing it was a criminal offense to threat anybody.
> 
> Will this guy undergo a similar procedure for his colossal threat?


 
I bet he won't. Chavez is not an american citizen, he doesn't live there and he is not complaining to American Police. I guess nobody 'within the system' cares about that...


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## Everness

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,166642,00.html

_"There are a number of ways to take out a dictator from power besides killing him," Robertson said. "I was misinterpreted by the AP, but that happens all the time."_

Pat, I knew right from the beginning that a devoted Christian like you couldn't have said something like that. These ungodly bastards (pardon my French) that call themselves journalists are clearly after you. They are always twisting what one says.

Now that things have been clarified, I want to reassure you that you'll keep getting my humble monthly offering. 

Keep up the good work, brother Pat!


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## Swettenham

Everness said:
			
		

> http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,166642,00.html
> 
> _"There are a number of ways to take out a dictator from power besides killing him," Robertson said. "I was misinterpreted by the AP, but that happens all the time."_


"You know, I don't know about this doctrine of assassination, but if he thinks we're trying to assassinate him, I think that we really ought to go ahead and do it. It's a whole lot cheaper than starting a war... We don't need another $200 billion war to get rid of one, you know, strong-arm dictator. It's a whole lot easier to have some of the covert operatives do the job and then get it over with."


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## Swettenham

"I didn't say 'assassination,'" Robertson clarified during a broadcast of his "The 700 Club" Wednesday morning. "I said our special forces should go 'take him out,' and 'take him out' could be a number of things, including kidnapping."

He did say "assassination."  His comments may have been uttered in frustration, but kidnapping is scarcely more conscionable.  When are America's leaders going to realize that we can't tamper with entire nations, and expect the collapse of governments to be as harmless as a falling house of cards?  There's no excuse for this kind of tampering.  In my opinion, if Robertson wishes to be seen as a spiritual leader, then he should stick to saving souls and give unto Ceasar what is Caesar's.


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## Tabac

Swettenham said:
			
		

> Again, we see the face of America's enemy: religious extremism.


I just wish more people could see that extremism is the source of all our terror.  Now we even have extremists makin stupid comments in the name of Jesus on our own soil!


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## Tabac

Everness said:
			
		

> I have a question. Isn't it against the law (forget about Christian love) to use your TV program to recommend that a president of a sovereign country be killed?


Jon Stewart on "The Daily Show" last night explained that.  It's o.k. if you own the network, which Robertson does, I believe.


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## cuchuflete

BasedowLives said:
			
		

> this guy's a moron and in no way represents how many americans feel



I beg to differ.  He's no moron.  He's a master at separating fools from their money, at manipulating their politics, and making them feel good while he fleeces and uses them.  He does clearly represent how many Americans feel.
He foments those feelings.

That's why he must be taken seriously.  He is pernicious.


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## Edwin

Tabac said:
			
		

> Jon Stewart on "The Daily Show" last night explained that.  It's o.k. if you own the network, which Robertson does, I believe.



According to the Wikipedia article (Pat Robertson ): " Robertson sold the Family Channel to the News Corporation in 1997, which renamed it Fox Family. A condition of the sale was that the station would continue airing Robertson's television program The 700 Club twice a day. It is now owned by Disney as ABC Family."


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## Tabac

Edwin said:
			
		

> According to the Wikipedia article (Pat Robertson ): " Robertson sold the Family Channel to the News Corporation in 1997, which renamed it Fox Family. A condition of the sale was that the station would continue airing Robertson's television program The 700 Club twice a day. It is now owned by Disney as ABC Family."


Thanks for the up-date.  This makes it even more interesting.  Donald Duck and Micky Mouse are going to be international assassins. Poor Walt is probably turning in his grave.


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## Everness

When I grow up, I'd like to think and write like Richard Kim from "The Nation." 

Most Americans (I didn't say all Americans, ok?) have already put behind the whole Robertson affair. We read the news, we reacted to it, and we moved on. 

If you have time to spare, read Kim's article "In Defense of Pat Robertson." 

Key words: "collective amnesia" and "mainstream of public opinion." 

Enjoy!

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050912/kim


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## asm

I agree
It looks like there are religious extremists on both sides of the spectrum; that's scary!!!   





			
				Swettenham said:
			
		

> I love how he was careless enough to mention "oil." I heard a joke (maybe it was true ) that Operation Iraqi Freedom was originally slated to be called Operation Iraqi Liberation.
> 
> And no, Robertson, we don't need to start another $200B war to create another political void, make life miserable for millions and further damage our reputation across the globe.
> 
> Again, we see the face of America's enemy: religious extremism.


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## Venezuelan_sweetie

Well, I just found this while running a search for a word. I found it interesting, now that the dust of that polemic has somehow settled... but there is new dust floating around.

So, I would like to submit this thread to your clinical analysis, and receve some feedback from you.

I would like to make another question to encourage insightful answers, but it is hard to be more obvious than "do you think relationships between US (Bush, actually) and Venezuela (Chávez, mainly) are "hostile"?

So I'd rather make no question at all. If the mods allow me to (please...  ) I'd just like to know what you guys think on this whole matter, especially to whatever hostility, religious extremism, media rambling, and so on and so forth.

PS: Please let me know if you think I'm being too broad and unspecific...


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## justjukka

The 700 Club is pretty radical and not a good representation of American Christians.


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## Venezuelan_sweetie

So I've heard, Rozax (thanks for replying so fast!), and it is quite a relief indeed.

But then, what do Americans (Christians or not) think of the matter?  What would you say is the general point of view?  Or if you feel like giving your own opinions, what do *you* think, personally?


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## djchak

Are relations hostile?

Maybe between Chavez and Bush...but no citgo gas stations (venezuelan oil) have been shut down, sweetie. Chavez basically sells us oil, and blames anything he can on Bush. We keep buying and ignoring him. That's the bottom line.

And I'm of the opinion that this is basically a tool for Chavez. If we stopped buying oil from them, and replaced it with E85, there would be a BIG effect in Venezuela.... other countries would still buy, like China, but it would have an effect.

You might find things like this intresting. Personally, I am for giving Venezuelan political asylum. I want then to immigrate legally, and be sucessful all over the US, not just in Florida.


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## cuchuflete

VS- Most Americans are fairly indifferent to the fulminations of Bush, who has lost most credibility.  Most Americans are aware that Chávez and Bush both act like schoolyard brats, throwing insults at one another, and don't very much care.

The relatively few Americans who bother to try, through the press or Venezolano friends, to learn what is really going on in your country see both the upside and downside of H. Chávez's domestic policies (there are both), and have a healthy mistrust of his public proclamations.  He is, after all, a politician.  How many of those can we trust?


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## caballoschica

Edwin said:


> ¿Puedes creerlo?
> 
> 
> 
> Video of his statement here.
> http://mediamatters.org/items/200508220006
> 
> No telling how he squares this with the ten commandments and Christ's teachings.  Incredible!



Every time I see Pat Robertson's name or Fox News(I refer to it as Faux News for a reason), I don't read it.  I know it's a load of crap.  Pardon my language.  I do believe that he said that.  I just know that he's a very radical evangelist religious fundamentalist.  And that I do not hold in high regard.  I do not think that he represents what most Americans think.  He represents what the Americans who watch Faux News religiously(no pun intended) believe.  What he represents is the Religious Evangelist Fundamentalist Radical Extreme Right Wing.  That's not a huge group of people, but it is a squeaky wheel, so to speak.  We don't need to do anything to Chávez.  He's not our problem. Bush is.


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## Venezuelan_sweetie

Thanks a lot guys, that is exactly what I wanted to "hear": your own points of view in the matter.

Down here, all we hear in the news is: "los ánimos están caldeados", "Chávez debe cuidar sus comentarios si no quiere intervención directa de los Estados Unidos", "La comunidad internacional se encuentra conmocionada ante el discurso violento de Chávez", "las acusaciones y amenazas van y vienen entre ambas partes"...  Quite boring, indeed.  It only makes it easier for us to just stand aside and ignore the whole deal.

It is much more interesting to listen to you guys.  Thanks for doing so!

Regards,
Vs.


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## Victoria32

Edwin said:


> ¿Puedes creerlo?
> 
> 
> 
> Video of his statement here.
> http://mediamatters.org/items/200508220006
> 
> No telling how he squares this with the ten commandments and Christ's teachings. Incredible!


No telling indeed! The man's a nutmeg with no credibility. Regardless of Chavez' policies the Americans have been trying to overthrow him for years - not untypical behaviour for the American right and the imperialists!

I have heard enough Americans call him a 'communist dictator' to wonder at the naivete of some people!

Vicky


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## djchak

Victoria32 said:


> No telling indeed! The man's a nutmeg with no credibility. Regardless of Chavez' policies the Americans have been trying to overthrow him for years - not untypical behaviour for the American right and the imperialists!
> 
> I have heard enough Americans call him a 'communist dictator' to wonder at the naivete of some people!
> 
> Vicky



What's your proof? That Chavez claims this? 

As long as the oil keeps pumping out of Venezuela... the American Government basically ignores Chavez. In fact the thing that might drive him and other people so nuts is the degree of indifference.


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## Victoria32

djchak said:


> What's your proof? That Chavez claims this?
> 
> As long as the oil keeps pumping out of Venezuela... the American Government basically ignores Chavez. In fact the thing that might drive him and other people so nuts is the degree of indifference.



There is a man in New Zealand called Paul Buchanan, now at Auckland University, but formerly of the USA State Department, who has written articles for the New Zealand Herald about recent events in Venezuela. Try http://www.nzherald.co.nz
and enter Chavez... 

For information about the non-ignoring of Chavez, try http://www.discussanything.com and do likewise!

Vicky


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## Everness

Victoria32 said:


> No telling indeed! The man's a nutmeg with no credibility. Regardless of Chavez' policies the Americans have been trying to overthrow him for years - not untypical behaviour for the American right and the imperialists!
> Vicky



Yep, Venezuela's failed coup in 2002 was linked to the Bush administration.
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,688071,00.html


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## djchak

Everness said:


> Yep, Venezuela's failed coup in 2002 was linked to the Bush administration.
> http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,688071,00.html



I read the link. Curiously, while several people accuse the U.S. of the coup...there is no actual evidence. Otherwise it would be all over the BBC news pages, and every other newspaper in the world, just like the Iraq war is.

At best, all it shows is that they looked at the 48 hour attempted coup, said "good luck", and went back to business as usual in D.C, wasting the taxpayers  money.


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## maxiogee

Is this really the fiftieth response to a thread asking if the authorities of a civilised country ought to kill the elected leader of another civilised country?


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## cuchuflete

Ha!  Forum rules......










do not require a display of common sense.


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## Venezuelan_sweetie

Actually, I'm not here to start a poll on what the US government should or should not do.  That (in my view at least  ) would be rather senseless, moreover if we consider this:



maxiogee said:


> Is this really the fiftieth response to a thread asking if the authorities of a civilised country ought to kill the elected leader of another civilised country?


 
Quite logical, indeed.  However, my request was simple:



Venezuelan_sweetie said:


> (..) I would like to submit this thread to your clinical analysis, and receve some feedback from you.
> 
> I would like to make another question to encourage insightful answers, but it is hard to be more obvious than "do you think relationships between US (Bush, actually) and Venezuela (Chávez, mainly) are "hostile"?
> 
> (...) I'd just like to know what you guys think on this whole matter, especially to whatever hostility, religious extremism, media rambling, and so on and so forth.


 


Venezuelan_sweetie said:


> (...) then, what do Americans (Christians or not) think of the matter? What would you say is the general point of view? Or if you feel like giving your own opinions, what do *you* think, personally?


 
This is what I'm asking for...  And so far, the replies have been quite interesting...


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## TRG

The title of the thread attempts to equate radical Islam and the jihadists with the so-called "Christian right" in the US. An exercise in sophistry if ever I have seen one. I regard Pat Robertson and his ilk as a joke and while they have a following it is quite narrow. If anything I have heard or read lately stoops to his level of political discourse, it is the discussion in this thread.


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