# Juventud, divino tesoro, ¡ya te vas para no volver!



## psxws

hey guys,

could i have a spot check on this translation of part of a ruben dario poem? any mistakes or ways of making it sound better.

here's the spanish original:

*Canción de Otoño en Primavera*

Juventud, divino tesoro, 
¡ya te vas para no volver! 
Cuando quiero llorar, no lloro... 
y a veces lloro sin querer...

 ¡Mas es mía el Alba de oro!​

a rough translation in English:

Youth, divine treasure,
Now you leave, never to return!
When I mean to cry, I don't shed a tear...
But sometimes I cry without meaning to...

But the golden Dawn is mine!


and my attempted translation: 

*اغنية خريفية في الربيع*

الشباب, كنز إلهي
تترك سابقا بلا عودة
متى ارغب في البكاء, لا ابكى
ومرة ابكى بلا إرادة

لكنه لي, الفجر الذهبي!
​ 
On the first line, I'm tempted to write:الشباب, كنزاً الهياً​ but I'm not sure why, I know it's not a direct object but I   remember there being a special case where it took اً anyway and this   feels like it might've been it.  I kind of like how الهي "rhymes" (at   least visually) with ابكى and ذهبي, but I'd like to get the grammar right first   and foremost. 

any other changes to make it feel more poetic are welcome  already i love how the title flows, but i don't have a native's ear for this kind of stuff. since it's poetry, it doesn't have to be 100% literal, if it sounds "better"/has better meter/rhyme/etc, as long as it conveys the same idea (obviously subjective but the reason I'm asking you guys) 			 		

thank you!


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## AndyRoo

I made some changes, but they are not poetic...



*اغنية خريفية في الربيع*

الشباب, كنز إلهي
ترحل الآن ولن تعود
متى اريد البكاء, لا ابكى
وأحيانًا ابكى بلا إرادة

لكنه لي الفجر الذهبي!​


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## psxws

Thank you Andy, I can see why most your changes make sense. 

Would "بلا عودة" be wrong, or just sound worse than ولن تعود ? I liked the juxtaposition of بلا عودة & بلا إرادة 

Also, the reason I used سابقا is because I was reading "ya" as "already", not as "now". I was first tempted to use قد for some reason, but in the present tense it conveys a different meaning. I think the original could be read either way, though. Would you still suggest اﻵن ? or سابقا? or something else?

Any comments as to whether the first line needs tanween? I think there was a rare grammatical instance in which it did, but maybe this isn't it. It sounds like it belongs there, though.


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## AndyRoo

psxws said:


> Thank you Andy, I can see why most your changes make sense.
> 
> Would "بلا عودة" be wrong, or just sound worse than ولن تعود ? I liked the juxtaposition of بلا عودة & بلا إرادة


 I just thought ولن تعود sounded better, but I could be wrong.


psxws said:


> Also, the reason I used سابقا is because I was reading "ya" as "already", not as "now". I was first tempted to use قد for some reason, but in the present tense it conveys a different meaning. I think the original could be read either way, though. Would you still suggest اﻵن ? or سابقا? or something else?


 If you want a past/present perfect meaning I suggest لقد رحلت. I think سابقًا sounds too prosaic.


psxws said:


> Any comments as to whether the first line needs tanween? I think there was a rare grammatical instance in which it did, but maybe this isn't it. It sounds like it belongs there, though.


 No, tanween would not be correct here.


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## psxws

AndyRoo said:


> If you want a past/present perfect meaning I suggest لقد رحلت. I think سابقًا sounds too prosaic.



I don't want a past meaning, that's why I didn't use قد. I want a present meaning, something like "already you are going".  اﻵن might sort of imply that.  

Altogether, then, I have:  


*اغنية خريفية في الربيع*

الشباب, كنز إلهي
ترحل الآن بلا عودة
متى اريد البكاء, لا ابكى
وأحياناً ابكى بلا إرادة

لكنه لي الفجر الذهبي​ 

شكرا يا عندي روح


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## momai

Hi,
This is my try:
الشباب ,يا كنزاً إلهياً
تغادرنا الأن بلا رجعة
عندما أرغب في البكاء ,لا أذرف ايّة دمعة
لكن أحياناً أبكي بلا رغبة
لكنه لي, الفجر الذهبي


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## psxws

momai said:


> Hi,
> This is my try:
> الشباب ,يا كنزاً إلهياً
> تغادرنا الأن بلا رجعة
> عندما أرغب في البكاء ,لا أزرف ايّة دمعة
> لكن أحياناً أبكي بلا رغبة
> لكنه لي, الفجر الذهبي



Thank you! Maybe that's why I felt it needed tanween, I was just missing the يا !

It does read more poetically, thank you


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## momai

psxws said:


> Thank you! Maybe that's why I felt it needed tanween, I was just missing the يا !
> 
> It does read more poetically, thank you


You are welcome.
 By the way I'm sorry I did a mistake, it should be أذرف not أزرف of course !


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## Ashraf Mahmoud

psxws said:


> Also, the reason I used سابقا is because I was reading "ya" as "already", not as "now". I was first tempted to use قد for some reason, but in the present tense it conveys a different meaning. I think the original could be read either way, though. Would you still suggest اﻵن ? or سابقا? or something else?


I think you mean (early, as an adverb, = before the expected time) مبكراً
تغادرنا مبكراً بلا رجعة


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## psxws

No problem. Would it be OK to say حين instead of عندما ? (even if it sounds archaic, the poem is kind of archaic-sounding, too)  

حين أرغب في البكاء ,لا أذرف ايّة دمعة
لكن أحياناً أبكي بلا رغبة​ 
I like the contrast between حين and أحياناً , which reinforces the contrast between the lines. With that in mind, would it be OK to drop the لكن altogether, and let it be assumed by context? (note that in the original, it is not "but", but "and")


حين أرغب في البكاء ,لا أذرف ايّة دمعة ..
  أحياناً أبكي بلا رغبة ..
​


Ashraf Mahmoud said:


> I think you mean (early, as an adverb, = before the expected time) مبكراً
> تغادرنا مبكراً بلا رجعة



Not quite as I understand it. "Ya te vas" means "you're leaving already". This does have the connotation of being before the expected time, but I wouldn't say it's its primary meaning. I think it's quite different from "you're leaving early" (how I'd translate مبكرا), but perhaps the same is not true of Arabic?

Thanks for the suggestion.


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## momai

psxws said:
			
		

> حين أرغب في البكاء ,لا أذرف ايّة دمعة ..
> أحياناً أبكي بلا رغبة ..


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## psxws

ألف شكر
For the sake of completeness, here's the final* version:  


الشباب ,يا كنزاً إلهياً
تغادرنا اﻵن بلا رجعة
  حين أرغب في البكاء ,لا أذرف ايّة دمعة ..
  أحياناً أبكي بلا رغبة ..

لكنه لي, الفجر الذهبي!​

*unless anyone has any suggestions, of course


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## cherine

I don't have much to add to the excellent job Momai did. Just a little suggested tweeking: I don't know why you chose "us" تغادرنا instead of "me" تغادرني/تتركني. I think the latter is the intended meaning, for lamenting past youth is an individual thing. I guess.
And for the last line, I'd prefer لكن الفجر الذهبي لي/مِلْكي .


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## psxws

cherine said:


> I don't have much to add to the excellent job Momai did. Just a little suggested tweeking: I don't know why you chose "us" تغادرنا instead of "me" تغادرني/تتركني. I think the latter is the intended meaning, for lamenting past youth is an individual thing. I guess.
> And for the last line, I'd prefer لكن الفجر الذهبي لي/مِلْكي .



Agreed as to the intended meaning, I thought the same thing but figured it might be more poetic in the plural. I also think the last line sounds better as you have it. شكرا يا تشرين

So, once again, final* version:

*اغنية خريفية في الربيع
*
الشباب ,يا كنزاً إلهياً
تغادرني اﻵن بلا رجعة
  حين أرغب في البكاء ,لا أذرف ايّة دمعة ..
  أحياناً أبكي بلا رغبة ..

لكن الفجر الذهبي مِلْكي!
​


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## elroy

I’m surprised no one commented on this, but you can’t use الشباب to address youth.  It sounds especially dissonant with the subsequent vocative.

يا أيها الشباب، يا ذا الكنز الإلهي 

“Already” is often very challenging to translate into Arabic!  I think here من الآن might work.

ها أنت تتركني من الآن، ولن تعود 

My suggestion for the rest:

حين أريد البكاء لا أبكي
وأحيانًا أبكي دون أن أريد
لكن الفجر الذهبي، إنه لي!


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## cherine

elroy said:


> I’m surprised no one commented on this, but you can’t use الشباب to address youth.  It sounds especially dissonant with the subsequent vocative.
> يا أيها الشباب، يا ذا الكنز الإلهي


You're right that we should use a حرف نداء. But thinking about this now, I believe it's even better to go for يا شبابي , as the poet is lamenting the departure of his own youth (as he's becoming an old man) not youth in general.


> “Already” is often very challenging to translate into Arabic!


True, but as it's not there in the original Spanish, we don't need to worry about it here.


> حين أريد البكاء لا أبكي
> وأحيانًا أبكي دون أن أريد
> لكن الفجر الذهبي، إنه لي!


I like the last two, but for the first line I prefer the one given above:
حين أرغب في البكاء، لا أذرف أيّة دمعة


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## elroy

cherine said:


> it's not there in the original Spanish


 It is -- you must have missed it: 


psxws said:


> ¡*ya* te vas para no volver!


 But I'm actually now realizing that the English translation doesn't include it! 


psxws said:


> Now you leave, never to return!


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## cherine

True, but it doesn't "feel" correct to say "you're already leaving", I think the intended meaning here is actually "now", not "already".


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## elroy

I would say “You’re *leaving already*”; cf. 





psxws said:


> "Ya te vas" means "you're leaving already".


 “Now” for me is too neutral.  Perhaps it was used in the English translation for metrical or other reasons not related to the meaning.


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