# Bis dann / bis denn



## rompeolas

Is one more correct than the other? Or do they mean different things?
Danke schoen!


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## elroy

The correct phrase is "bis dann."


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## cyanista

_Bis denn_ is the "cool" version.  

It is quite popular in colloquial speech - at least, this is my impression.


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## heidita

True , cyanista, at least in my area.


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## Piotr_WRF

You can also hear "bis denne" sometimes.


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## MarX

cyanista said:


> _Bis denn_ is the "cool" version.
> 
> It is quite popular in colloquial speech - at least, this is my impression.


Where I live, "bis denn" is not the "cool" version. It is simply the form everybody uses, not really because it's cool.
I rarely ever heard "bis dann" here. Except newcomers. Even many of them start saying "bis denn" after some time.


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## Robocop

In Switzerland, "bis d*e*nn" is clearly a *dialect *expression. The correct standard form is "bis d*a*nn".


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## MarX

elroy said:


> The correct phrase is "bis dann."


In the case of "bis dann" or "bis denn", it is hard to say one is correct and the other not, because it is part of the colloquial speech, and it's very unlikely that it be used in a document or context where "correct" spelling is required.

Saying "bis denn" is incorrect whereas "bis dann" is correct is like saying "ciao" or "tschö" are incorrect, whilst "tschüss" is correct.

Lots of word repetition, but I hope you get what I mean.


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## Kajjo

The only correct expression is "Bis dann!". The form "Bis denn(e)!" is colloquial and regional. In Northern Germany (and standard German) it sound pretty wrong and sometimes even silly.

Kajjo


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## Hutschi

Hi, here in Saxxony (Sachsen) - middle Germany - I never heard "bis denn!" in the High German language.

Alternatively to "bis dann" I know following forms, for example,

"bis gleich" - has usually the same meaning. 
"bis später" - has almost the same meaning, but it does not point to a special time.
"bis bald" - has almost the same meaning, but it does not point to a special time.

"Bis denne" and "bis denn" may also be dialect versions. Which dialect would it be?

Best regards
Bernd


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## KnightMove

Angemerkt sei, dass der Ausdruck die Abkürzung ist für sinngemäß folgenden Satz:

Lebe wohl bis zu jenem Zeitpunkt, an dem wir uns wieder sehen (=dann).

Mit "denn" im hochsprachlichen Sinne ergibt der Ausdruck gar keinen Sinn.


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## MarX

KnightMove said:


> Angemerkt sei, dass der Ausdruck die Abkürzung ist für sinngemäß folgenden Satz:
> 
> Lebe wohl bis zu jenem Zeitpunkt, an dem wir uns wieder sehen (=dann).
> 
> Mit "denn" im hochsprachlichen Sinne ergibt der Ausdruck gar keinen Sinn.


I read that "denn" and "dann" were originally variations of the same word. Even Luther used them interchangeably.



Kajjo said:


> The only correct expression is "Bis dann!". The form "Bis denn(e)!" is colloquial and regional. In Northern Germany (and standard German) it sound pretty wrong and sometimes even silly.
> 
> Kajjo


I'd suggest you travel over Northern Germany before you make such a statement.
In Mecklenburg, which is, FYI, located in Northern Germany, the majority of the population says "bis denn". Tell them it sounds wrong and silly, _they _will think _you_ are silly.


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## KnightMove

MarX said:


> I read that "denn" and "dann" were originally variations of the same word. Even Luther used them interchangeably.


 
I can't dispute about that, but it might be true and possibly the same for "than" and "then" in English.

However, it should be noted that Luther used the word mostly in the sense of "than", while nowadays this is rather outdated and "denn" mostly means "because of".


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## Jocaste

MarX said:


> I'd suggest you travel over Northern Germany before you make such a statement.
> In Mecklenburg, which is, FYI, located in Northern Germany, the majority of the population says "bis denn". Tell them it sounds wrong and silly, _they _will think _you_ are silly.



In Baden-Württemberg, I've always heard them say "_Bis d*a*nn_".
Depends on which area you are in, it seems.


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## MarX

Jocaste said:


> In Baden-Württemberg, I've always heard them say "_Bis d*a*nn_".
> Depends on which area you are in, it seems.


I agree that it depends on where you are.

I was replying to Kajjo who said that "*bis denn*" in Northern Germany sounded pretty wrong and sometimes even silly.

In Mecklenburg in Northern Germany, saying "*bis dann*" is some kind of a shibboleth which shows that someone is not from the area.
As I said before, many "newcomers" even adopt it and start saying "*bis denn*" themselves after some time.

MfG,


MarK


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## Jocaste

MarX said:


> I agree that it depends on where you are.
> 
> I was replying to Kajjo who said that "*bis denn*" in Northern Germany sounded pretty wrong and sometimes even silly.
> 
> In Mecklenburg in Northern Germany, saying "*bis dann*" is some kind of a shibboleth which shows that someone is not from the area.
> As I said before, many "newcomers" even adopt it and start saying "*bis denn*" themselves after some time.
> 
> MfG,
> 
> 
> MarK



Languages are very mysterious


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## Kajjo

MarX said:


> In Mecklenburg in Northern Germany, saying "*bis dann*" is some kind of a shibboleth which shows that someone is not from the area.


Whatever you say, but it is dialect and not standard German. For me it generates the impression of less educated language or intentional (thus, silly) errors to belong to some sort of group. I hear such usage only rarely, but I admit that I still may not have completely adopted "Mecklenburg" into "Northern Germany" (as would be correct nowadays).



> As I said before, many "newcomers" even adopt it and start saying "*bis denn*" themselves after some time.


May I ask how much experience do you have with Mecklenburg? What is you background for this insighful studies?

Kajjo


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## heidita

Marx, funny you should say that to Kajjo, he actually IS from the north.



> The correct phrase is "bis dann."


 
This is a rather dangerous statement in language, as I have learned.


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## Forero

KnightMove said:


> I can't dispute about that, but it might be true and possibly the same for "than" and "then" in English.
> 
> However, it should be noted that Luther used the word mostly in the sense of "than", while nowadays this is rather outdated and "denn" mostly means "because of".



All these words (like "then", "than", "there", "them", "thence", etc.) began as forms of the same demonstrative, suffixed for various cases, etc.  How they happen to fall in a given Germanic language is more accident and tradition than logic or education level.


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## cyanista

Should you ever happen to hear someone say "bis denn", rompeola, please be aware that this person is either a hillbilly or just intentionally trying to be silly in order to secure himself/herself a place in a group of equally silly people.


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## heidita

cyanista said:


> Should you ever happen to hear someone say "bis denn", rompeola, please be aware that this person is either a hillbilly or just intentionally trying to be silly in order to secure himself/herself a place in a group of equally silly people.


 
I personally do not count myself among the_ hillbillies or silly people_. It is quite _standard _to say _bis denn_ in my area, at least when I was living in NRW. 

*Cyanista*, wissen.de states _denn _used as_ dann_.

Ich fand diese interessante Eingabe in *wissen.de*:




> *denn* *I *...*2 *[norddt.] _dann;_ na, denn los!; na, denn nicht!


 
Tatsächlich, *Kajjo und Marx*, wir es als norddeutsch bezeichnet. In meiner Zone gilt es auf jeden Fall auch.


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## MarX

heidita said:


> I personally do not count myself among the_ hillbillies or silly people_. It is quite _standard _to say _bis denn_ in my area, at least when I was living in NRW.
> 
> *Cyanista*, wissen.de states _denn _used as_ dann_.


Where I live here in Mecklenburg. *Denn* instead of *dann* is also quite standard.
As I said. It is like a shibboleth through which one can identify someone not coming from the area. And the use of *denn* has nothing to do with educational level or silliness. It's not even about trying to belong to a certain group. It is simply standard here.


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## Kajjo

MarX said:


> It is simply standard here.


In a language forum it is important to use words accurately. Please note that "standard German" is clearly defined. What you really want to say is "in Mecklenburg's colloquial language it is common to say _denn_". 

Again, the usage of "denn" is at best colloquial, it sounds more like a regional dialect.

Kajjo


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## nichego

cyanista said:


> Should you ever happen to hear someone say "bis denn", rompeola, please be aware that this person is either a hillbilly or just intentionally trying to be silly in order to secure himself/herself a place in a group of equally silly people.


Hehe, nicely said. 
To my (Austrian) ears it sounds just plain wrong. It's clearly colloquial, regional speech - and - not standard or correct at all. Much like saying "dat" instead of "das".


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## Kajjo

nichego said:


> Hehe, nicely said.
> To my (Austrian) ears it sounds just plain wrong. It's clearly colloquial, regional speech - and - not standard or correct at all. Much like saying "dat" instead of "das".



Exactly.

Kajjo


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## Acrolect

_Standard_ as an adjective - as in MarK's _is quite standard _- is listed as a synonym of _common_ in my Thesaurus. I do not believe that he meant that _denn_ is Standard German (whose meaning, BTW, I do not consider so well-defined considering that it is very often used - by a vast majority of foreros, too - interchangeably with Standard German German, High German, Written German, Formal German...), but simply that it would be odd if you said _Bis dann_ in his area.

MarK posed a valuable and relevant question earlier, namely whether there could be a Standard version of _bis dann_, which itself is rather colloquial. 

Anyway, I was happy to learn something new because I have been unaware of the form _bis denn_


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## Acrolect

nichego said:


> not standard or correct at all. Much like saying "dat" instead of "das".


If something is not Standard, it is wrong?


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## cyanista

cyanista said:


> Should you ever happen to hear someone say "bis denn", rompeola, please be aware that this person is either a hillbilly or just intentionally trying to be silly in order to secure himself/herself a place in a group of equally silly people.



Hmm... and I actually hoped that most people don't consider someone silly if they talk differently from them, at least not the participants of this forum. 

Once again, "bis denn" is very widespread in NRW where I live and it has no stigma attached to it, it just sounds informal and casual.


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## heidita

nichego said:


> Hehe, nicely said.
> To my (Austrian) ears it sounds just plain wrong. It's clearly colloquial, regional speech - and - not standard or correct at all. Much like saying "dat" instead of "das".


 
As far as I can see, Cyanista was trying to make a joke.

_Plainly wrong_ is almost nothing in language. As I have stated before, _denn_ *is standard in NRW*. It *IS* also commented on and not considered "incorrect" in *wissen.de.*


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## nichego

Acrolect said:


> _Standard_ as an adjective - as in MarK's _is quite standard _- is listed as a synonym of _common_ in my Thesaurus


In my thesaurus (for English, as we're talking English): serving as a model; normal, regular, typical; widely accepted.



Acrolect said:


> If something is not Standard, it is wrong?


Wrong in the sense of _standard_ correctness (standard as in _Standard German_), of which I supposed the discussion was about. If not, my fault.


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## nichego

heidita said:


> _Plainly wrong_ is almost nothing in language.


As long as it is understandable for the majority it is _"right"_, then? I hope not!

PS: I said "to *my *ears it _sounds _just plain wrong". That's clear enough.


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## Kajjo

Acrolect said:


> If something is not Standard, it is wrong?


Well, right and wrong are measured against a standard. Thus, yes, if something is not standard, it is wrong. At least pupils in school and for official documents, non-standard equals wrong. 

Dialect contains very many wrong grammar and words compared to standard German, but it might have its own dialect standard. Something might be right in Bavarian but wrong in standard German.

I believe that this forum declares right and wrong by using standard German as reflected in dictionaries and official rules. If we want to say something is dialect, we suppose it is somewhat _right in the dialect_ but also _wrong in standard German_ and we call it short _dialect_ -- no right or wrong needs to be placed here.

Kajjo


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## heidita

nichego said:


> As long as it is understandable for the majority it is _"right"_, then? I hope not!


 
Why not? In southern Germany and Austria _gell_ is a very accepted word for "nicht wahr". To my ears it sounds "weird, so what? (Apparently this word has its origin in "gelten", so it would be "wrong" in your opinion)



> PS: I said "to *my *ears it _sounds _just plain wrong". That's clear enough.


 

Not as clear as you think. It is not only "_understandable_" but, I insist it is mentioned as a variable of _bis dann_ in wissen.de. You might want to check.


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## heidita

Kajjo said:


> I believe that this forum declares right and wrong by using standard German as reflected in dictionaries and official rules.
> Kajjo


 
Denn *IS* reflected in wissen.de.


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## Kajjo

heidita said:


> Denn *IS* reflected in wissen.de.


Yes, but this is what I and dictionaries call _regional. _Such dictionary entries do not define the standard, but explicitly tell you by adding _norddt._ (or _süddeutsch, österr._) that it is not _hochsprachlich_, but only regional. The entry is included in the dictionary, because the word is widespread and commonly used in one or more regions and thus might be of interest for customers of this dictionary. Be aware that some dictionaries nowadays even list _wrong_ words with a label such as _fälschlich für X. _Thus, it should be clear that simply _being in a dictionary _does not make a word standard, but that the entry has to be read and interpreted completely. 

By the way, in DWDS the term _denn _is even marked as _norddt. salopp_ which makes it even more distanced from standard German. 

I won't regard such words as bad in itself, but I would not recommend to children to use words labelled _regional _in written school homework or students to use in their thesis. I see a difference between acceptable and understandable in every day regional usage and entirely belonging to standard German.

Even if the following is a very personal opinion, let me add that I trust sites like DWDS, Canoo, Duden, Brockhaus, Wahrig a lot more because they are made by experts rather than public sites like wissen.de. However, in this case the entry originated from Bertelsmann, so it is trustworty anyhow and coincides with other dictionaries anyway.

Kajjo


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## Acrolect

Kajjo said:


> Yes, but this is what I and dictionaries call _regional. _Such dictionary entries do not define the standard, but explicitly tell you by adding _norddt._ (or _süddeutsch, österr._) that it is not _hochsprachlich_, but only regional.



Then they only define a German Standard of German (which is a legitimate purpose in itself) and not a generally valid one because - as discussed repeatedly and emotionally - Austria has its own standard of German and items classified as Austrian (unless from Austrian dialects) should count as as _hochsprachlich _andas Standard as their German German counterparts (I am not sure whether a dictionary adding _österr._ would really classify this as regional or rather as a hint to other types of standards).


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## Kajjo

Acrolect said:


> Then they only define a German Standard of German (which is a legitimate purpose in itself) and not a generally valid one because - as discussed repeatedly and emotionally - Austria has its own standard of German and items classified as Austrian (unless from Austrian dialects) should count as as _hochsprachlich _andas Standard as their German German counterparts (I am not sure whether a dictionary adding _österr._ would really classify this as regional or rather as a hint to other types of standards).


Yes, we have been there enough times. In my opinion there is only one standard that is reasonable to apply to learners of German. I know you have a different opinion. We have to live with this situation.

Kajjo


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## MarX

rompeolas said:


> Is one more correct than the other? Or do they mean different things?
> Danke schoen!


Hej Rompeolas! 
Both "bis denn" and "bis dann" are correct.
In some areas it would be more correct to use "bis dann", in others "bis denn" would be more correct.

You mostly are going to use this expression in everyday situations, and you'll likely accomodate to your environment.
Just like many newcomers, who never said "bis denn" before, in Mecklenburg in Northern Germany start using "bis denn" after some time without even realizing it.

Mit freundlichen Grüssen,


MarK


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## Kajjo

MarX said:


> Both "bis denn" and "bis dann" are correct.


Please start using dictionaries before making wrong statements. From my point of view we have made it sufficiently clear what DWDS or wissen.de write about regional usage. Again, regional usage is not correct standard German that should be taught to learners of German.

Why do you try to make a political issue out of it? Why not just state the obvious facts:

_"Bis dann" is correct in standard German.
"Bis denn" is a regional variant used in Northern Germany.
_
These two sentence are just true and unambigious, and they are supported by all reference dictionaries made by experts on language. This helps everyone. Each person can decide what to use, but learners realise what is the standard term in whole German speaking area. There is no need to beat your biased opinion into everyone. Stay with the facts.

Kajjo


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## spikelucky

Kajjo said:


> Please start using dictionaries before making wrong statements. From my point of view we have made it sufficiently clear what DWDS or wissen.de write about regional usage. Again, regional usage is not correct standard German that should be taught to learners of German.
> 
> Why do you try to make a political issue out of it? Why not just state the obvious facts:
> 
> _"Bis dann" is correct in standard German.
> "Bis denn" is a regional variant used in Northern Germany.
> _
> These two sentence are just true and unambigious, and they are supported by all reference dictionaries made by experts on language. This helps everyone. Each person can decide what to use, but learners realise what is the standard term in whole German speaking area. There is no need to beat your biased opinion into everyone. Stay with the facts.
> 
> Kajjo



Before you said:


Kajjo said:


> The only correct expression is "Bis dann!". The form "Bis denn(e)!" is colloquial and regional. In Northern Germany (and standard German) it sound pretty wrong and sometimes even silly.
> 
> Kajjo



Do you actually know what you're writing about? First you write its wrong in Northern Germany than its a regional variant used in Northern Germany. Being too busy cutting other peoples comments down when you don't have a clue yourself. 
You also said you wouldn't advise students to use "Bis denn" in a thesis or on a test. Well I never ended a thesis writing "'til then". As many people noted the whole thing is a colloquial expression and if you speak with others colloquially you should do it right, as in using the correct regional language. Or don't speak colloquial at all and use formal High German, in which case I wouldn't recommend using any variation of this particular term.


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