# EN: X et moi - X and I/me



## tilt

[…] I also have a question.
Why do people say _Nicole and I_? Shouldn't it be _Nicole and me_?
And would you say _Nicole and he_ instead of _Nicole and him_?


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## jann

Good question!   Because in English, "Nicole" and "I" are both the grammatical subject of the sentence... therefore, you need subject pronouns.  "Me" is an object pronoun.  The same is true for "Nicole and he" where "he" is required because you need a grammatical subject (instead of "him," the object pronoun.

I go to the theater, Nicole goes to the theater: Nicole and I go to the theater.
He goes >> Nicole and he go.

Does that make sense?  English speaking children sometimes have trouble learning this...

Nicole and him go to the theater 
Nicole and me go to the theater 
Jane likes Nicole and me 
Jane likes Nicole and him


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## VixenFox

Tilt, I am so happy to be able to answer your question because you've answered so many of mine!

He and I are subjects, so they go in front of the verb.  Me and him are objects, so they go after verbs and prepositions.

Nicole and I are going to the party.  You should talk to Nicole and me there.  He and Nicole are going to the party.  You should talk to them (sorry!) there.

Jann, you beat me to the punch!  I do want to add that English speaking adults also frequently say I when they should be saying me.  I can't think of a good example off the top of my head, but it's especially annoying when it's in the lyrics of popular songs!


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## jann

> He and Nicole are going to the party.



And now here is a question for you, VixenFox   Is "Nicole and he are going..." preferable to "He and Nicole are going..."?


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## tilt

Thank you so much, Jann and VixenFox.

In French, we always use _Nicole et moi_ or _Nicole et lui_, and noone ever explained me it doesn't work this way in English!
(how bizarre, to imagine we could say _Nicole et j'allons au cinéma !_ )


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## polaire

VixenFox said:


> I do want to add that English speaking adults also frequently say I when they should be saying me.  I can't think of a good example off the top of my head, but it's especially annoying when it's in the lyrics of popular songs!



I think the phenomenon is called "overcorrection."


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## tilt

You mean songs like this one?


> Here we are on earth together
> It's you and I
> […]
> In love you and I, you and I, you and I


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## VixenFox

> And now here is a question for you, VixenFox   Is "Nicole and he are going..." preferable to "He and Nicole are going..."?


I don't know.  I think "He and Nicole" sounds better.

Yes, Polaire, overcorrection it is.  It's driving me crazy that I can't think of any song lyrics that do that.  There have been several popular songs that put I instead of me both due to overcorrection and for rhyming purposes.



> You mean songs like this one?


No, in that song, there's no problem.  "It is you and I" is actually correct, if I'm not mistaken.  But now I'm having a doubt because it seems like people say, "It's me!" more than, "It's I!"  It has to do with the verb to be.  A common mistake is to answer the phone and when someone asks for you, you say, "This is her."  You're supposed to say, "This is she."


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## tilt

VixenFox said:


> I don't know.  I think "He and Nicole" sounds better.


Maybe "because having a singular pronoun followed by a verb in a plural form sounds odd" 


VixenFox said:


> Yes, Polaire, overcorrection it is.  It's driving me crazy that I can't think of any song lyrics that do that.  There have been several popular songs that put I instead of me both due to overcorrection and for rhyming purposes.


I also found _hypercorrection _on some sites. This one is both French and English.


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## kiwi-di

_You and I vs You and Me_

Nicole will come to the cinema with you and me 
Nicole will come to the cinema with you and I 

While the correct explanation does lie in which is the subject and which is the object, for those who have trouble with grammar anyway, and have have never learned about subjects and objects, this can be as confusing as _que and qui_. 

Many native English speakers also get this wrong.  However, I have always found that by suggesting the _[you and]  _is removed from the sentence, one sounds right and the other sounds wrong.

_Nicole will come to the cinema with *me *_sounds perfectly acceptable, but one would never say _Nicole will come to the cinema with *I.

*_And you can also use this _aide-memoire_ to help with the original query; you would not say* Me *_will go to the cinema with Nicole._


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## A day in Eireann

What about thinking of kid's games ?

Don't you say : Who's there ? It's me ? Who's me ? Meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee ( memories of a year as an au-pair are scratching my ears now )

After that, how do you expect most people, unless they are keen on top literature or studies, to readily say " it is I", when answering the phone?


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## Nicomon

VixenFox said:


> I don't know. I think "He and Nicole" sounds better.


I do to.  But as a francophone... I'm afraid I can't explain why. 




VixenFox said:


> Here's an example of a song where the lyrics should be "you and me," not "you and I."


 


> There's a neverending story that begins with you and *I
> *Like the rose outside your window
> Don't let it die, don't let it *die *


 
This one looks like a good example of *I *being used for rhyming purposes... but then... may be BonJovi doesn't know better


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## A day in Eireann

VixenFox said:


> I don't expect anyone to say that. This is what I expect:
> Caller: Hello, may I please speak to Eireann?
> You: This is she.


 

I stand corrected, you're right, even if you got my point ( most people would then still say "me" or at best "her" and when I say " it is she", I am told I'm being pompous or fussy or talking lilke the queen....... One has a queen in France or in Ireland? )


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## kiwi-di

VixenFox said:


> This is what I expect:
> Caller:  Hello, may I please speak to Eireann?
> You:  This is she.



Absolutely correct, but because of continued improper usage, _this is she_ probably sounds strange to many people.

Which is why this is more normal (at least, in this part of the world):
Caller:  Hello, may I please speak to Di?
Me: Speaking.


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## Nicomon

Same goes in this part of the world.


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## broglet

VixenFox said:


> I don't expect anyone to say that. This is what I expect:
> Caller: Hello, may I please speak to Eireann?
> You: This is she.


There is an interesting difference between AE and EE here. Nobody, but _nobody_, in EE would say "This is she", although it is grammatically correct. What we would say is "Yes, that's me", which, while being grammatically incorrect, is normal usage. 
There is an amusing story about an English bookshop displaying a sign saying "nous parlons français". A Frenchman comes in and asks "Qui parle français ici?" The bookshop owner proudly responds, "C'est je!"
The phenomenon of overcorrection is usually associated with people who have had a little education, but not enough. They remember learning at school that it is wrong to say "John and me went to the cinema" and that they ought to say "John and I went to the cinema". But either they were not taught the reason for this or they can't remember it. So they then overgeneralise and assume they should _always_ say "John and I" ... and end up saying incorrect things like "He gave it to John and I"
By the way, the reason why "It is me" is grammatically incorrect is to do with the unusual status of the verb "to be". "It is me" looks structurally like the same kind of sentence as "He kicks me" but if you think about the meaning, it is of a completely different logical form. The subject of the sentence "It is me" is in fact not "it" but "me" - which is why one should really use "I" - and what the sentence means is "I am the person"
I suspect that the grammatical issue is related to the philosophical concept of existence not being a predicate, and it is also related to the fallacy behind the "ontological proof" of the existence of God used by, among others, Descartes.


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## polaire

broglet said:


> *There is an interesting difference between AE and EE here. Nobody, but nobody, in EE would say "This is she", although it is grammatically correct.* What we would say is "Yes, that's me", which, while being grammatically incorrect, is normal usage.
> There is an amusing story about an English bookshop displaying a sign saying "nous parlons français". A Frenchman comes in and asks "Qui parle français ici?" The bookshop owner proudly responds, "C'est je!"
> * The phenomenon of overcorrection is usually associated with* *people who have had a little education, but not enough.* They remember learning at school that it is wrong to say "John and me went to the cinema" and that they ought to say "John and I went to the cinema". But either they were not taught the reason for this or they can't remember it. So they then overgeneralise and assume they should _always_ say "John and I" ... and end up saying incorrect things like "He gave it to John and I"
> By the way, the reason why "It is me" is grammatically incorrect is to do with the unusual status of the verb "to be". "It is me" looks structurally like the same kind of sentence as "He kicks me" but if you think about the meaning, it is of a completely different logical form. The subject of the sentence "It is me" is in fact not "it" but "me" - which is why one should really use "I" - and what the sentence means is "I am the person"
> I suspect that the grammatical issue is related to the philosophical concept of existence not being a predicate, and it is also related to the fallacy behind the "ontological proof" of the existence of God used by, among others, Descartes.



I'm American, and  I've used that.   But it sounds odd, even to my ears, so I try to avoid it.  "Can I help you?" is what I  say instead.

There is nothing more irritating than dealing with self-righteous overcorrection victims. They become indignant about non-existent mistakes. Sometimes they even confuse me, because, like most Americans, most of the grammar I learned was in foreign language classes, and that was a very long time ago.

[…]


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## wildan1

> There is an interesting difference between AE and EE here. Nobody, but _nobody_, in EE would say "This is she", although it is grammatically correct. What we would say is "Yes, that's me", which, while being grammatically incorrect, is normal usage.


 
In AE you will hear both:

_This is he_ (my telephone reply to a caller asking "May I speak to Mr. Smith?")

_That's me_ or _This is me_ (sentence I say when pointing myself out in a group photo)


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## Nicomon

If someone asks on the phone "May I speak to Nicole", I normally reply "speaking". But if I were to use a pronoun, what would come naturally to me (a non native) is... "It's me". 

In my mind, it goes like this:

Puis-je parler à Nicole? C'est moi (colloquial) OR Elle-même (less so)
May I speak to Nicole? It's me (colloquial) OR This is she (borderline pompus)

I am this person... this person is me. 


The Nico in Nicomon is short for Nicole


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## VixenFox

> There is an interesting difference between AE and EE here. Nobody, but _nobody_, in EE would say "This is she", although it is grammatically correct. What we would say is "Yes, that's me", which, while being grammatically incorrect, is normal usage.



When answering the phone (let us not forget the context), I say, "This is she," all the time, and I don't think I'm pompous.  (Who knows what other people think of me, however . . .)  Thanks, Wildan1, for backing me up on the American English.  I don't think people around here say, "Yes, that's me," when answering the phone, and (Nicoman) "It's me" sounds even stranger (again, in the context of answering the phone).  I'll tell you when I do say, "It's me," though . . .

(knock, knock, knock)
My Friend or Sister (in bedroom or bathroom):  Who is it?
Me:  It's me!  Open the door!


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## cruxcriticorum

I think the subject vs. object issue has been adequately explained, but…



> Originally posted by *jann*
> Is "Nicole and he are going..." preferable to "He and Nicole are going..."?


I’m not aware of any specific rule for word order in a compound subject, but it seems that some of them are fairly standardized, while others are more flexible. I’m no linguist, so I can only speak from personal experience. For two subjects joined with _and_:

1. proper noun + proper noun

Obviously, they can go in either order. Nicole and Marc…. Marc and Nicole….

2. personal pronoun + proper noun

Nicole and I, Nicole and they (They and Nicole also sounds okay to me.)
*- but -*
You and Nicole, *He and Nicole*, She and Nicole, We and Nicole

3. personal pronoun + personal pronoun

In my experience, these are always ordered the same way: He and I, He and they, She and I, She and they, They and I, They and you, We and he, We and she, We and they, You and I

These, however, are not: He and you -*or*- You and he, She and he -*or*- He and she, She and you -*or*- You and she, We and you -*or*- You and we

I haven’t included compound indirect objects or examples with more than two subjects, but hopefully this will be of some use to somebody. By the way, Kiwi-di, I like your "remove the _and you_/_you and_" rule.


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## Nicomon

VixenFox said:


> and (Nicom*o*n) "It's me" sounds even stranger (again, in the context of answering the phone). I'll tell you when I do say, "It's me," though . . .


 
True. It does sound strange. But in my stubborn francophone mind, "she" is another person... I don't like answering in French "elle-même" either, while I know people who do. 
In any event, as I said before, I usually answer "speaking".


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## wildan1

In AE we are taught (at least when I was in school and grammar was still taught as a subject) that the personal pronoun _I _should always come last in a compound subject. I believe this was emphasized as a question of stylistics and humility rather than grammatical correctness.

What has come out of that expectation is another example of overcorrection in some AE speakers, who then eliminate their use of _I _altogether and say:

_Nicole and *myself* went to the movie theater last night. _(probably not horrible-sounding to a francophone ear since it isn't far from _Nicole et moi, nous...,_ but definitely jarring to a native English ear!

(I am afraid I hear it from the same people who think they are being more proper when they say "I just met she and Mark at the mall."


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## tilt

wildan1 said:


> In AE we are taught (at least when I was in school and grammar was still taught as a subject) that the personal pronoun _I _should always come last in a compound subject. I believe this was emphasized as a question of stylistics and humility rather than grammatical correctness.


The same in French. Saying _Moi et mes amis_ is considered impolite.


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## broglet

A day in Eireann said:


> I stand corrected, you're right, even if you got my point ( most people would then still say "me" or at best "her" and when I say " it is she", I am told I'm being pompous or fussy or talking lilke the queen....... One has a queen in France or in Ireland? )


I don't think Her Majesty would ever say "This is she".  She is renowned for her sense of humour and I can imagine her saying "It is us".  On a recent walkabout a woman said to her, "You look just like the Queen".   She replied, "How very reassuring"


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## polaire

wildan1 said:


> In AE we are taught (at least when I was in school and grammar was still taught as a subject) that the personal pronoun _I _should always come last in a compound subject. I believe this was emphasized as a question of stylistics and humility rather than grammatical correctness.
> 
> What has come out of that expectation is another example of overcorrection in some AE speakers, who then eliminate their use of _I _altogether and say:
> 
> _Nicole and *myself* went to the movie theater last night. _(probably not horrible-sounding to a francophone ear since it isn't far from _Nicole et moi, nous...,_ but definitely jarring to a native English ear!
> 
> (I am afraid I hear it from the same people who think they are being more proper when they say "I just met she and Mark at the mall."



And these people think they're being so sophisticated when they use "myself."   They sound like fools.



tilt said:


> The same in French. Saying _Moi et mes amis_ is considered impolite.



Kids who aren't taught good English often say:

Me and my friends are ...


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## broglet

polaire said:


> Kids who aren't taught good English often say:
> 
> Me and my friends are ...


This form, grammatically incorrect though it is, is quite usual in the UK among the educated and uneducated alike, when speaking casually.  "My friends and I ... " has a slightly posh sound.


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