# Formality in written conversations.



## Vejrudsigt

I'd like to know if I was right to avoid jullie before a Beneluxer gave me the benefit of the alsjeblieft. Here's a transcript of our convo:

*Mezelf
*Welke grote nederlandse stad/steden beveelt u aan om te bezoeken?

Ik ontmoet met deense vrienden in Hamburg en wij reizen dagenlang met trein naar Antwerpen. De vraag is, hoe door Nederland voorbij te gaan. 

Mijn gabbers komen uit Aarhus, de grootste stad van Denemarken behalve de hoofdstad. Als Kopenhagen de deense Amsterdam is, dan is Aarhus Rotterdam. Zij geloven dat een tocht door Holland, zowel Noord als Zuid, herhalend zal zijn. 

Daarom willen wij naar plaatsen waaronder Groningen, Nijmegen, Arnhem, en Maastricht gaan. Klinkt dat goed? Of zijn er andere steden...?

*Een Amsterdammer*
Beste Andy!
Wat een leuk idee! Je kunt ook naar Utrecht of Den Haag/Scheveningen gaan? Of Delft? De vraag is meer.. Wat vinden jullie leuk om te doen/zien?

*Mezelf*
Sanneke ~ heeft iemand ooit gedacht dat jij deen was? ^_^

Ik ben die door jouw vermeldte steden vergeten, maar nu zouden we moeten daar komen!

Hoewel mijn vrienden en ik "stedelijke mensen" zijn, interesseren ons ook het (platte)land en polders. Dus we zouden graag de ruïnen van de Zuiderzee vinden...


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## HKK

Vejrudsigt said:


> I'd like to know if I was right to avoid jullie before a Beneluxer gave me the benefit of the alsjeblieft.



I have to say the meaning of this sentence is not readily apparent. Could you rephrase your question so as to make it more digestible?


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## Peterdg

Vejrudsigt said:


> I'd like to know if I was right to avoid jullie before a Beneluxer gave me the benefit of the alsjeblieft. Here's a transcript of our convo:
> 
> *Mezelf
> *Welke grote nederlandse stad/steden beveelt u aan om te bezoeken?
> 
> Ik ontmoet met Deense vrienden in Hamburg en wij reizen dagenlang met de trein naar Antwerpen. De vraag is, hoe door Nederland voorbij te gaan.
> 
> Mijn gabbers komen uit Aarhus, de grootste stad van Denemarken, behalve de hoofdstad. Als Kopenhagen dehet  Deense Amsterdam is, dan is Aarhus Rotterdam. Zij geloven dat een tocht door Holland, zowel Noord als Zuid, herhalend zal zijn.
> 
> Daarom willen wij naar plaatsen waaronder zoals Groningen, Nijmegen, Arnhem, en Maastricht gaan. Klinkt dat goed? Of zijn er andere steden...?
> 
> *Een Amsterdammer*
> Beste Andy!
> Wat een leuk idee! Je kunt ook naar Utrecht of Den Haag/Scheveningen gaan? Of Delft? De vraag is meer.. Wat vinden jullie leuk om te doen/zien?
> 
> *Mezelf*
> Sanneke ~ heeft iemand ooit gedacht dat jij Deen was? ^_^
> 
> Ik ben die door jouw vermeldte steden vergeten, maar nu zouden we daar moeten daar komen!
> 
> Hoewel mijn vrienden en ik "stedelijke mensen" zijn, interesseren ons ook het (platte)land en polders. Dus we zouden graag de ruïnen van de Zuiderzee vinden...


What is your question?


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## Vejrudsigt

HKK: 
That would be my attempt at an idiom. I meant to ask, _*"Was it okay for me to use the pronoun u instead of jullie? The lady did address me with je (alsjeblieft), not u (alstublieft)."*_

Peterdg: 
"De vraag is, hoe door Nederland voorbij te gaan." = The question is how to cross the Netherlands.
"een tocht door Holland, zowel Noord als Zuid, herhalend zal zijn" = a trip though Holland, both north and south, will be repetitive


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## Joannes

Vejrudsigt said:


> HKK:
> That would be my attempt at an idiom. I meant to ask, _*"Was it okay for me to use the pronoun u instead of jullie? The lady did address me with je (alsjeblieft), not u (alstublieft)."*_


Yes. But this was an online discussion, right? To my experience people tend to use *jij / je *-- and in plural definitely *jullie *-- over *u*, even if they don't know whom they're speaking too. In fact, one will often see that using *u *online (or in Flanders even *jij *instead of *gij*) is used to stress distance, and is used right before showing a lot of disrespect. We had an example only recently in an argument in this forum where members with opposing opinions were getting more and more formal by calling each other *u*, *meneer*, and *waard heerschap*.. It's a bit of a strange idea, but I have seen it happening in other languages as well..

Maybe there are differences between platforms though.



Vejrudsigt said:


> Peterdg:
> "De vraag is, hoe door Nederland voorbij te gaan." = The question is how to cross the Netherlands.
> "een tocht door Holland, zowel Noord als Zuid, herhalend zal zijn" = a trip though Holland, both north and south, will be repetitive


bvb.* De vraag is hoe doorheen Nederland te reizen
*
*een tocht *is a hike
I'm going to give a completely different version but I am sure there are other ways to say this: *Zij denken dat twee keer door Holland reizen op de heen- én de terugweg saai is.*


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## Vejrudsigt

Very informative, Johannes...we were indeed talking online. It seems that the second-person pronoun in the Low Countries is quite different from Danish "you", where only the monarch will be addressed with the formal pronoun.

Speaking of that language, the *heen* in your corrections parallels the directional word _hen(ne)_, meaning "over (there)". And it hadn't dawned on me that we're doing a round-trip, but we are, so kudos for the insight!


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## Bog Svarog

Vejrudsigt said:


> HKK:
> That would be my attempt at an idiom. I meant to ask, _*"Was it okay for me to use the pronoun u instead of jullie? The lady did address me with je (alsjeblieft), not u (alstublieft)."*_


You should be mindful though when drawing conclusions from people using *alsjeblieft*.

A lot of native Dutch speakers will use *alsjeblieft* in quite formal settings, which leads to awkward sentences like *alsjeblieft mevrouw, hier is uw koekje*.
In other words: *alsjeblieft* is getting fossilized into a word that expresses formality nor informality (a fact of of which the users are oblivious).

The mere reason ofcourse being that* alsjeblieft *is easier pronounced than* alstublieft* (at least that's my assumption).


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## Furor

Vejrudsigt said:


> "De vraag is, hoe door Nederland voorbij te gaan." = The question is how to cross the Netherlands.



Another possibility is:
"De vraag is, hoe Nederland te doorkruisen?"

Which is more literal. Just for your information  

Gabbers is very Netherlandic Dutch, btw, and has a more negative connotation in Flanders, imho.


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## Vejrudsigt

Bog Svarog: wow, it's like the disappearance of the second-person plural pronoun in both Spanish America (vosotros) and Brazil (vós). 

Furor: how curious - what's the Flemish slang-word for "buddy, chum, pal"?


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## Furor

Though Yiddish in origin (meaning buddy), gabber is likely associated with a subgenre of techno/housemusic.

In Flanders, maat (cf. mate), makker and kameraad are most frequently used (at least, in my experiences  ). Not that we wouldn't understand it, but it's not the first association you make.


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## Vejrudsigt

Furor said:


> Though Yiddish in origin (meaning buddy), gabber is likely associated with a subgenre of techno/housemusic.
> 
> In Flanders, maat (cf. mate), makker and kameraad are most frequently used (at least, in my experiences  ). Not that we wouldn't understand it, but it's not the first association you make.



Dank je wel...


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## Lopes

Joannes said:


> We had an example only recently in an argument in this forum where members with opposing opinions were getting more and more formal by calling each other *u*, *meneer*, and *waard heerschap*..


 
Dang, I missed that..  



Bog Svarog said:


> A lot of native Dutch speakers will use *alsjeblieft* in quite formal settings, which leads to awkward sentences like *alsjeblieft mevrouw, hier is uw koekje*.
> In other words: *alsjeblieft* is getting fossilized into a word that expresses formality nor informality (a fact of of which the users are oblivious).


 
Where did you get this idea? I can't really say that I agree. 



Furor said:


> Though Yiddish in origin (meaning buddy), gabber is likely associated with a subgenre of techno/housemusic.



That depends where you are I guess. I don't know how it is in other places but here 'een gabber is geen hakker maar je makker', to quote Osdorp Posse (not for the first time  ). 
I did however find it amusing reading it on here written by a foreigner who is learning Dutch, it seemed very out of place.


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## Istriano

Remember that in Flanders *u *can be informal (the object (accusative)) form of _gij _and _jullie_). While gij is suffering an anticampaign by the Taalunie language police sent from Utrecht, the use of *u* is not attacked,
so you can see people write _jij _and _u_, and _jullie _and _u _in the same sentence, (this would be similar to _Vos _and _te _in Argentina, and _Você _and _te _in Brazil, _Vocês _and _vos _in Portugal, or _Usted, te, vos_ in Costa Rica).

Dank u!  This is how Linda Mertens (of Milk inc) thanks her fans, would she be formal with people aged from 5-25 years? I think not!
Even _Gek op jou_ or _Gek op u_. Males tend to use more_ Gek op u_, girls may use_ Gek op jou _(especially girls like that singer Betty or K3 who change their accent to be marketable in Holland!)

If one can tolerate _je _for objective case of _jullie_, I don't know why one shouldn't tolerate _u _for the objective case of _jullie _too!


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## ThomasK

Just by the way: *jouw *is a possessive form, _*jou *_is the object form of *jij*.


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## HKK

Istriano said:


> In Flanders *u *can be informal (the object (accusative)) form of _gij _and _jullie_).



I have noticed this phenomenon too, for example:
"Hebben jullie allemaal uw huiswerk gemaakt?"
"Jullie gaan niet weten wat er u overkomt."
The cause of this problem is a mismatch between the _Netherlandishness _and _Flemishness _of the words "jullie" and "je". The usage of "jullie" in typical Flemish speech is widely accepted; it doesn't sound too _Netherlandish _and the alternatives "gelle"/"gulle" are wildly dialectal and sound boorish to many people's ears (inc. mine). On the contrary, the object form of jullie, "je", is too Netherlandish to be palatable in most Flemish settings while "u" doesn't sound too dialectal (as Istriano pointed out). That's where the mixed form comes from; it represents a middle ground. Now I agree that being "correct" is meaningless to a certain degree. I am no language purist or "standards freak". All the same, mixing jullie/u(w) _burns my ears_ everytime I hear it. And I'm not the only one. So even though it's done a lot in Flanders, I wouldn't say it's quite accepted in every circle. Personally I choose between jullie/je and gelle/u based on the situation.

The attempts to replace native Flemish pronouns with Netherlandish equivalents have done a lot of damage to our natural language feeling. Just yesterday I had to explain to my French teacher how formality interacts with je/ge/u in Flanders. She's from France and her Dutch is excellent, but she had no idea about the subtle differences in the pronouns. It's a bizarre situation and I would much prefer that ge/gelle didn't have this paternalist stamp of being local/dialectal/even boorish. But that's just how it is.


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## Kayla321

I agree with the things said about _gabbers_. Seeing this in a "foreign" text made me smile.  In NL _makker_, _maat _and _kameraad _are only used by certain groups of (very young?) people. I would use _vrienden _instead. Unless you intend to make people smile. 



			
				Joannes said:
			
		

> *De vraag is hoe doorheen Nederland te reizen*


This is a very flemish expression. In NL you would never say "doorheen" in this context.

And as for the answer to The Original Question: in plural, I would always use _jullie_, not _u_. _U_ in plural is (imo) archaic. In this context, I think it would be ok to use je/jij instead of u. Besides, people are not that easily offended when someone is obviously trying to learn their language.


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## Istriano

In Flemish sitcoms and soap operas...I've noticed that _jouw _it's not used at all (_uw _is used instead), _jou _is not frequent (I hear _u_ most of the times) while other forms coexist _gij/jij, ge/je, jullie_ (with _u_ as an object).
But it depends on a style, for example in _Het eiland,_ they never use_ jij/je_, it's mostly _gij/ge,_ but jullie is used (with _u_ as an object). Ok, I've heard a few examples of postverbal _je_, but not really preverbal _je _or _jij _in that sitcom. This sitcom DOES NOT USE A DIALECT, but a normal informal speech of educated / middle class people of Flanders (except for West Flanders which has a bit different usage).

I know a girl from Hasselt and from what she's been telling me, people there don't seem to object the omnipresent ''Brabantization'' of Belgian Dutch. These two regions are close to each other, so they're familiar with how their neighbors talk.
People in West Flanders may don't like this tho'. They have a sharp contrast between a dialect and the formal usage, so they're not too keen on embracing the new Belgian-Dutch-informal-standard-in-the-making.


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## Joannes

Kayla321 said:


> This is a very flemish expression. In NL you would never say "doorheen" in this context.


Why do you say it is (very) Flemish?

I mean: why do you say that, rather than just "I wouldn't say it like that" or "I have only heard Flemish people say that". Are you sure no one in the Netherlands would use _doorheen _this way?

I'm asking because I have noticed the tendency for people to generalize differences into Dutch Dutch - Belgian Dutch distinctions. Which exist of course, but it is not always applicable. By saying what you said you take away the possibility that other Flemish people wouldn't say it either and that I am just idiosyncratic, you ignore that it might be a more regional thing within Flanders, that some people in some regions in the Netherlands may say it too (the three large dialect areas in Flanders don't stop at the border but have Dutch versions too..), and who knows a Surinamer was disappointed you qualified his favorite phrasing as "very Flemish"..

I am not saying you are wrong. It may well be a difference that can be mapped between Belgian Dutch and Dutch Dutch and if you have sound reasons or proof to make the claims you made then I'm sorry to use you as an example. I just want to make an appeal not to boil everything down to that distinction a priori. Our language area is way more complicated than that, and its people are too. 



Istriano said:


> People in West Flanders may don't like this tho'. They have a sharp contrast between a dialect and the formal usage, so they're not too keen on embracing the new Belgian-Dutch-informal-standard-in-the-making.


People in Limburg have (or rather, _had_) a sharp difference between (Belgian) Standard Dutch and dialect too but it is arguably the region in Belgium which has standardized most, with a lot of dialect loss as a result (although some, including young people are still 'bilingual'). The standardization would have been helped by the fact that even within the larger dialect area, mutual intelligibility is/was not very good.
In West-Flanders, standarization and dialect loss is happening, and I have read and heard in practice that Brabantization has its share there too (gij, ke-diminutive), with people from other regions, but also with people from West-Flanders.
Anyway, this is probably getting off topic.


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## NewtonCircus

Joannes said:


> I'm asking because I have noticed the tendency for people to generalize differences into Dutch Dutch - Belgian Dutch distinctions.



Dit is inderdaad waar. Een typisch voorbeeld is het gebruik van _zeuven_. De meeste Belgen zijn er rotsvast van overtuigd dat dit exclusief Nederlands is. Niets is minder waar.


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## DutchieHfx

-This is a very flemish expression. In NL you would never say "doorheen" in this context. -

I don't know whether or not this is Flemish. I do know that "doorheen" in this context is grammatically wrong.
You could say:  "Ik ga er doorheen" or "Ik reis door Nederland"

 I agree that "alsjeblieft" neutral is, in formality-land. However, it is colloquial, spoken language.
"U" should not be mixed with "jullie" en "jouw", for the sake of consistency.
My generation went through the transformation of "U" to "je" and "jou", while addressing parents.
If it is important to me to be respectful with certain people (mostly elder people, or those in a "respect-earned" position) , and will use "U",
but I am an Ex-Pat, and haven't been able to keep up with the language of young, Dutch natives.

p.s. I discovered this forum this morning, and better watch the clock.  I could spend the whole day here!  Too much fun! )


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## Kayla321

What did I do? I'll never call anything flemish again! 
I called it _very flemish _because that's what it sounds like to me. No offense intended!


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## Joannes

Kayla321 said:


> What did I do? I'll never call anything flemish again!
> I called it _very flemish _because that's what it sounds like to me. No offense intended!


Take it easy.  I know you didn't mean any offense, Kayla, and none taken. To me -- and I tried to convey that as much as possible in my previous message -- it is really a general remark about a tendency I have noticed in this forum rather than a personal reproach or anything of the sort.

Sometimes I have the impression that whatever sounds as weird or wrong is labeled Dutch Dutch / Belgian Dutch by the Belgian resp. Dutch speakers, whereas I don't believe that's always the right explanation. And what you said served as an example to me because you stated without leaving much room that it _was _(not _sounded to you_) Flemish (_very _Flemish) and that in NL one would _never _say it like that.

And, if it can offer you any comfort, in this specific case, turns out it is actually likely that it is indeed a Belgian-Dutch difference, as can be deducted from this article. There. So keep calling things "Flemish" (realize that the terminology is confusing though) - apparently you have a good ear for it, but if I were you I would phrase such statements more tentatively, because I promise you not all variations come down to Dutch or Flemish. That's the point I was making, and not just to you.


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