# Alphabet letters as number system (Greek & Cyrillic)



## rushalaim

*Moderator note: Split from quoted thread.*



berndf said:


> In modern Russian but not in OCS. Even in modern Bulgarian, ъ still is a genuine vowel.


Letters have numeral value. Signs don't.


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## Saley

rushalaim said:


> Letters have numeral value. Signs don't.


Then Б isn’t a letter.


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## rushalaim

Saley said:


> Then Б isn’t a letter.


"Б" is the letter, "В" doesn't.


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## Saley

rushalaim said:


> "Б" is the letter, "В" doesn't.


Surely? Cyrillic numerals - Wikipedia

In any case your criterion is ridiculous.


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## rushalaim

Saley said:


> Surely? Cyrillic numerals - Wikipedia
> 
> In any case your criterion is ridiculous.


Ancient Greek had always *b* sound (Latin alphabet is taken from Greek and has always *b*  sound). When Catholics made Russian alphabet, Greeks already were saying only *v* sound.


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## apmoy70

rushalaim said:


> Ancient Greek had always *b* sound (Latin alphabet is taken from Greek and has always *b*  sound)


True, but by the time the Glagolitic script was invented, B is already the fricative [v], and we know it from the Cyrillic alphabet which developed in the 9th c. CE from the Glagolitic, which was based mainly on Greek: the letter *В* was used for the phoneme [v], while a new letter was invented, the *Б*, for the phoneme [b ]


rushalaim said:


> When Catholics made Russian alphabet, Greeks already were saying only v sound.


"Catholics" made the "Russian" alphabet?
In the 9th c. CE the Christian Church was united & one, the western part spoke Latin, the eastern (predominantly) Greek, the Pentarchy was alive and kicking, and the schism between East & West won't happen for the next two centuries.
The two brothers who invented the Glagolitic (and not "Russian") script were Greek speaking monks from Salonika.


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## berndf

rushalaim said:


> Letters have numeral value. Signs don't.





rushalaim said:


> "Б" is the letter, "В" doesn't.


I think you mean the opposite. B=2, Б has no numeric value. Anyhow, this only means the B wa8s viewed as a direct correspondence to a Greek letter while Б is an innovation (as apmoy correctly pointed out). The designers of Cyrillic wanted to use the numbering system in a way consistent with Greek and therefore assigned numbers only to letter that were directly taken from Greek.This has nothing to do with whether or not a letter represents a sound of its own or whether it is just a modifier (a "sign"), as the yers are in Russian. In OCS they were sounds.


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## rushalaim

berndf said:


> I think you mean the opposite. B=2, Б has no numeric value. Anyhow, this only means the B wa8s viewed as a direct correspondence to a Greek letter while Б is an innovation (as apmoy correctly pointed out). The designers of Cyrillic wanted to use the numbering system in a way consistent with Greek and therefore assigned numbers only to letter that were directly taken from Greek.This has nothing to do with whether or not a letter represents a sound of its own or whether it is just a modifier (a "sign"), as the yers are in Russian. In OCS they were sounds.


I think, when Greeks invented alphabet for Slav tribes (later were made Russians when Empire was established), Greeks pronounced only [v] sound for Beta-letter. Russian [v] sounded letter got Greek Beta-letter's shape because of similar sounding. That's why Russian [v] sound has B-shape.


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## berndf

rushalaim said:


> Slav tribes (later were made Russians when Empire was established)


No, "Slav tribes" is not the same thing as "Russians when Empire was established". The Slav tribes living in the areas missioned in the 9th century where not the ancestors of the Russians.


rushalaim said:


> Greeks pronounced only [v] sound for Beta-letter. Russian [v] sounded letter got Greek Beta-letter's shape because of similar sounding. That's why Russian [v] sound has B-shape.


Exactly. That is what we said. B is taken from Greek (and therefore has a number), Б is an addition (and therefore has no number). But again, this number business has anything to do with the status of representing a sound (letter) or being a modifier only (sign).


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## rushalaim

apmoy70 said:


> True, but by the time the Glagolitic script was invented, B is already the fricative [v], and we know it from the Cyrillic alphabet which developed in the 9th c. CE from the Glagolitic, which was based mainly on Greek: the letter *В* was used for the phoneme [v], while a new letter was invented, the *Б*, for the phoneme [b ]
> 
> "Catholics" made the "Russian" alphabet?
> In the 9th c. CE the Christian Church was united & one, the western part spoke Latin, the eastern (predominantly) Greek, the Pentarchy was alive and kicking, and the schism between East & West won't happen for the next two centuries.
> The two brothers who invented the Glagolitic (and not "Russian") script were Greek speaking monks from Salonika.


Those two Greek brothers went to Slavs only after Pope's order.


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## berndf

rushalaim said:


> Those two Greek brothers went to Slavs only after Pope's order.


This is wrong. Cyril and Methodius were sent by the patriarch of Constantinople. The issue with the pope arose only when they entered Slavic speaking territories claimed by the Franks and ecclesiastically claimed by the dioceses of Salzburg and Passau, which followed exclusively the Western liturgy.

Both the Western (Latin) and the Eastern (Greek) liturgy where liturgies of the one Catholic Church at the time. The restriction of the term to the Western church happened later, after the Schism.


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## apmoy70

rushalaim said:


> Those two Greek brothers went to Slavs only after Pope's order.


No, you're wrong, the two Thessalonian brothers were dispatched to Great Moravia by the Byzantine Emperor Michael III and the Patriarch of Constantinople Photius the Great, at the request of the Moravian Prince, Rastislav. The Pope comes in, quite later.

Apologies for the OT

Edit: cross-posted with berndf


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## rushalaim

berndf said:


> This is wrong. Cyril and Methodius were sent by the patriarch of Constantinople. The issue with the pope arose only when they entered Slavic speaking territories claimed by the Franks and ecclesiastically claimed by the dioceses of Salzburg and Passau, which followed exclusively the Western liturgy.
> 
> Both the Western (Latin) and the Eastern (Greek) liturgy where liturgies of the one Catholic Church at the time. The restriction of the term to the Western church happened later, after the Schism.


Agree.


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## Borin3

apmoy70 said:


> the letter *В* was used for the phoneme [v], while a new letter was invented, the *Б*, for the phoneme [b


Comon Greek language didnt have phoneme B at all (like in *b*all), only phoneme V (like in wa*v*e). Vowel B got into Greek under influence of Slavic languages (in this case Serbian and Bulgarian) so they invented a new symbol for it. Otherwise Greeks wouldnt call Serbia as Servia or Bulgaria as Vulgaria if they had B. Think with your head.


apmoy70 said:


> No, you're wrong, the two Thessalonian brothers were dispatched to Great Moravia by the Byzantine Emperor Michael III and the Patriarch of Constantinople Photius the Great, at the request of the Moravian Prince, Rastislav. The Pope comes in, quite later.


Its kinda weird two Thessalonian brothers learned Slavic languages from their Slavic nanny. I was wondering for a long time what meaning Thessalonika/Salonika has. Hope you can clarify


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## apmoy70

Borin3 said:


> Comon Greek language didnt have phoneme B at all (like in *b*all), only phoneme V (like in wa*v*e). Vowel B got into Greek under influence of Slavic languages (in this case Serbian and Bulgarian) so they invented a new symbol for it. Otherwise Greeks wouldnt call Serbia as Servia or Bulgaria as Vulgaria if they had B


Βy common you mean the Koine variant of ancient Greek?
In Koine Greek the letter Β is still pronounced [b ] but by the the Late Roman/Early Byzantine period (4th c. CE), the shift of the voiced plosives B [b ], Δ [d], Γ [g] to voiced fricatives [v], [ð], [ɣ] was complete (Gignac 1976). Therefore it's quite normal for the mediaeval & modern Greeks to pronounce «Σερβία» (Serbia) as [serˈvi.a] & «Βουλγαρία» (Bulgaria) as [vulɣaˈri.a]. Ιn fact not so long ago, in the English language too, Serbia was...Servia.


Borin3 said:


> Its kinda weird two Thessalonian brothers learned Slavic languages from their Slavic nanny


For some historians the two brothers learned Slavic from their nanny, for others, their mother Maria, was perhaps of Slavic stock therefore they grew up bilingual, no-one knows with certainty.
No-one denies on the other hand that the two brothers were mediaeval Romans, i.e. Greek speaking Christians, subjects of the Roman Emperor residing in the Imperial Capital, New Rome-Constantinople.


Borin3 said:


> I was wondering for a long time what meaning Thessalonika/Salonika has. Hope you can clarify


*«Θεσσαλονίκη»* (Koine: [tʰessaloˈnikeː], Early Byzantine: [tθessaloˈnikiː]***, MoGr: [θesaloˈnici]), was the city founded at the place of the pre-existing Macedonian town of «Θέρμη» [ˈtʰermeː] in either 316 BCE (by Philip II of Macedon according to Stephanus Byzantinus), or in 315 BCE (by Cassander according to Strabo), named after Alexander the Great's eponymous sister, who was born on the day her father king Philip II of Macedon defeated an allied Hellenic army at the Battle of Crocus Field, on the Thessalian plain.
*«Θεσσαλονίκη»* lit. means _Thessalian Victory_ = *«Θεσσαλία»* (Thessaly) + *«Νίκη»* (victory).

***We have evidence that the change from [tʰ] to [θ], involved an initial assimilatory shift to [tθ], followed by subsequent loss of the plosive element (Bubenik, 1983).


Borin3 said:


> Think with your head


Thanks for your advice, I will do as you said next time.


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## Borin3

1. Not weird since English heard it from Latins as other influenced languages. You get those names from people who know the land.  I do not understand your logic. So Greek B phoneme in 5th century went into V phoneme, and then you completely lost B phoneme? Why call Serbia as Servia and Bulgaria as Vulgaria otherwise? Is that logical to you?
2. Everything concerning those "Roman" brothers is perhaps.
3  Hmm..what would be the meaning of Thessaly?


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## apmoy70

apmoy70 said:


> ...«Θεσσαλονίκη» ... was the city founded at the place of the pre-existing Macedonian town of «Θέρμη» [ˈtʰermeː] in either 316 BCE (by Philip II of Macedon according to Stephanus Byzantinus), or in 315 BCE (by Cassander according to Strabo), named after Alexander the Great's eponymous sister, who was born on the day her father king Philip II of Macedon defeated an allied Hellenic army at the Battle of Crocus Field, on the Thessalian plain.
> «Θεσσαλονίκη» lit. means Thessalian Victory = «Θεσσαλία» (Thessaly) + «Νίκη» (victory)


Apologies for quoting myself, I just wanted to clarify that the city of Thessaloniki was founded either by Philip, or by Cassander, on the occasion of Thessaloniki's marriage to Cassander (so it was founded as a marital gift either from the father to his newly-wed daughter, or the spouse to his bride)


Borin3 said:


> 1.I do not understand your logic. So Greek B phoneme in 5th century went into V phoneme, and then you completely lost B phoneme? Why call Serbia as Servia and Bulgaria as Vulgaria otherwise? Is that logical to you?


Why would that be weird? that's how Greek has evolved through time. There's even a more detailed time period of the changes:
-The fricativization affects the labial B [b ] in the 2nd c. CE when it becomes [β] (bilabial approximant). The shift to the voiced fricative [v] is complete in the 4th c. CE.
-Γ [g] is probably still a velar stop through out the 2nd c. CE.
In the 3rd c. it changes initially to the allophone [ʝ] before the high front vowels [e, i], while remains [g] after a nasal. By the 4th c. CE, Γ is the fricative [ɣ].
-Δ is the last velar that is affected by fricativization, a process that begins in the 3rd c. CE.


apmoy70 said:


> 3  Hmm..what would be the meaning of Thessaly?


Thessaly is probably a Pre-Greek name, as the variants with -τθ-, -ττ- (e.g *«Πετθαλία» Pĕttʰălíā* (Thessalian), *«Φετταλία» Pʰĕttălíā* (Βoeotian)) attest. Per Beekes there's no doubt it's a Pre-Greek name < *Kʷettʲal-

Edit: Thanks berndf


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## Borin3

Why wouldn't it be weird? If i hear a name of a country i never knew before, i'd call it according to that language if i have all the same phonemes. That's why every Serb calls Aborigines the same as English, English the same as someone else who called them that first. That's just because i didn't know how they called themselves and i didn't hear it from them. Serbs and other Slavs "came" to Greek land and made direct contact and it's normal to expect that Greeks would call them the same as they call themselves. They call themselves Srb. Obviously these 3 consonants are too difficult for others to pronounce all together so logically vowel E was added to make it easy, as many did. Serb already is not if you have all resources in your language.

<... off topic ...>


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