# Style



## johndot

Greetings to all!

As I have reached One Hundred, I thought I would celebrate by losing my virginity (do I have everyone’s attention?) and submitting my first thread.

(That’s the funnies out of the way: now the serious stuff.)

To start with, I have read the thread _Novice Test_ which was opened by Hakro on 20th November 2006 and attracted 72 postings over a period of 15 days. Some of the points I make below are parallel to those raised in that thread, but I would like to revive the topics with a new title because a) 18 months have elapsed, b) the discussion was not always properly serious, and c) no conclusion was reached.

My comments and suggestions relate to Rule 22:

“Except as a topic of discussion, chatspeak and SMS style are not acceptable. Members must do their best to write using standard language forms, including capitalization, punctuation, accents, and diacritics.”

I’ve been disappointed, and sometimes disconcerted, by frequent disregard for this rule—committed not at all exclusively by Junior Members—and I think it should be more strictly applied.

That’s a rather hard-line statement, I know, and I admit to being a bit inflexible on the subject; but I can justify my viewpoint quite simply:

I’ve frequently had to re-read and puzzle over badly punctuated, short-cut typing—and that’s as an English person reading an English text written by an English writer: how much more difficult must it be for foreign readers? Surely, common courtesy dictates that all contributors, of whatever nationality, use the correct style for the language of their text so that what they are writing is as clear as it possibly can be?

And I’ll throw this in for good measure: careless typos don’t help, either. How often has questioning or arguing a point of grammar been a waste of time simply because the poster didn’t take the trouble to check for errors before posting?

It must be possible to cut down on this unnecessary confusion, and I think it is necessary to do so. If arbitrary deletion of rule-breaking posts is the only solution to the problem—then so be it. Those who have the true spirit of the Forum at heart will not mind in the least conforming to certain standards of style.

Or am I being too harsh?


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## El escoces

Congratulations on reaching one hundred.  I see you have reached one hundred posts as well.

Non-native readers will be able to read your post to help them understand the expression "grumpy old man".

But (joking aside) I support what you say entirely (although arbitrary deletion might be too harsh - a warning that if the post isn't tidied up and resubmitted, it will be deleted, might be more appropriate).


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## Etcetera

Hi Johndot,

I, too, congratulate you on reaching your first hundred posts. Keep on!

I agree with you - I can't say that bad punctuation and typos make reading posts more difficult for me, but they do annoy, especially when you see that the person isn't illiterate or badly educated, but simply too lazy to write properly. 

But I want to say a word for the Mods. Jana always edits posts with bad punctuation and bad orthography. But the Spanish Mods obviously can't edit all the badly-punctuated posts, right?


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## Grop

Hi johndot,

(Congratulations for the serious decision of losing your virginity ).

I am not quite sure why your thread is titled "Style". Are you talking about texts that have been badly written on purpose?


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## alexacohen

I'm not quite sure if losing your virginity was a good thing or a bad thing, so no congratulations. 

I cannot say how the _stop chat_ rule is applied on other forums, but the number of badly written, badly spelled, careless posts in the Sp/En forums is appalling.
And a great deal of them are not written by newbies.

The "hey guys im having trouble with this phrase i don't get it any help your great tnk u" and the like are badly written on purpose.


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## johndot

Greetings all, thanks for the replies to my comments, and the congrats (which you have been kind enough to send even though you must realise that it means that if I have stayed the course this long ... you might have to suffer me ’til goodness knows when!)
 
To El escoces: Yes, my ‘arbitrary’ solution would be a bit harsh, so I’m more than happy to support your suggestion, as a starting point, and see what improvements result.
 
To Etcetera: My remarks about typos were as much to do with politeness as with clarity, and your words “... too lazy to write properly” sums it up. Sadly.
 
To Grop: “Style” as in Style Manual, the in-house editing Bible of Publishing Houses and others. WordReference Rule 22 is an example of what any Style Manual might contain.
 
To alexacohen: Despite your opening sentence (and my reply to that is: only time will tell, my friend—only time will tell!), you appear to agree with my comments—thankyou—and if the Spanish/English Forums are as you describe, I hope my suggestions will at least provoke serious debate.
 
Once again, thanks to you all! I hope many others will join the discussion.
 
johndot


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## cuchuflete

Hi johndot,
Congrats, Old Timer!  The place grows on you, doesn't it? 

First I'll reply as a forero/member/reader...  You are not being too harsh at all.
I don't like to read confusing slop.  I'm extremely patient with and tolerant of newcomers who have yet to realize what we have here, and like normal cyberfolk, have yet to discover the Guidelines and Rules.  I have a considerably shorter fuse with those who should know better, and just don't seem to want to be bothered.

Switching now to the tattered moderator hat and cape, and armed with a truncheon made of jello...
I spend lots of time each day writing PMs to people who use chatspeak.  With new members, it's a worthwhile effort.  I try hard to maintain a genuinely friendly tone, and explain why we insist on best efforts to use standard language forms.  I often do not delete the first few posts or threads that violate the rules: rather, I ask them to be conscious of our collective style, and to do their best.  If they are native speakers, I'm a little more insistent.

When senior members, especially those who have been asked nicely on repeated occasions, post
the sort of things you object to, they are apt to find posts deleted with notes such as this:
Standard language, including punctuation and capitalization, is not optional.

​Moderators are, first and foremost, ordinary members.  If there were 500 moderators, we wouldn't have enough time to deal with every instance of chatspeak and other sloppiness, and still be able to participate in the forums.  It's a problem.


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## johndot

Thanks, cuchuflete, for your words of encouragement! I’m so glad I haven’t upset a Mod!
 
I do hope that all readers will take note of the opinions (and frustrations) of those who participate in this thread; that they will try to improve their style according to the guidelines; that they will understand that the rules are for everyone’s _benefit—_as well as_ everyone’s_ benefit; and that by doing so, moderators will not have to resort to harsh measures, but will instead have more time to offer assistance and advice—and have more time, too, to enjoy the Forum themselves.
 
And that “It’s a problem” as you so understatingly put it, will be no more.


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## El escoces

We shall live in hope...


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## Jana337

A small thing to start with: it would be great if all members who claim that italian, english or spanish are their native language corrected it to Italian, English or Spanish. A pet peeve of mine.


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## Grop

You are right: I will correct Français to français. Now.


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## alexacohen

Jana337 said:


> A small thing to start with: it would be great if all members who claim that italian, english or spanish are their native language corrected it to Italian, English or Spanish. A pet peeve of mine.



Mine is that foreros would state clearly which is their native language.

I'm sick to death of finding posts where no question is asked. Just a sentence in English and a sentence in Spanish. 

Then I check the "Native of" bit only to find "paradise lost", "in front of my TV", "english - spanish" and I can't make out what the forero wants.


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## El escoces

You're right alexa!

Or worse, a single sentence in English in the English-Spanish forum!


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## Paulfromitaly

alexacohen said:


> Mine is that foreros would state clearly which is their native language.
> 
> I'm sick to death of finding posts where no question is asked. Just a sentence in English and a sentence in Spanish.



We are aware of that issue, that's why the rule 14 was changed a little:



> You may register with one member name only. *Do not pretend to be someone you are not. This includes gender, nationality and native language. You must provide your native language. Who you are and where you are from is very important to understanding any translations or other language information that you provide*.


I personally send out a few PMs every single day to members who didn't accurately filled in their profile.


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## alexacohen

Paulfromitaly said:


> I personally send out a few PMs every single day to members who didn't accurately filled in their profile.



I have never doubted that, Paul.

If I am tired of that issue, you mods must feel even worse.


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## johndot

Thanks to one and all for the continued interest!
 
There seems to be particular dissatisfaction on the Spanish and Italian forums: is there an identifiable reason for such localised ‘unruliness’? And if you send out daily reminders, Paulfromitaly, do they meet with success? Do members then put correct information in their profiles? Because if not, surely a zero-tolerance policy could be adopted with complete justification?
 
(That makes me sound like an unremitting hardliner, I’m afraid, but underneath it all I’ve got a heart of gold, I assure you.)


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## El escoces

In defence of hard-liners (I have a zero tolerance on matters of punctuation, for example), they (we) too can have hearts of gold.  We absolutely mean well, right....?


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## Paulfromitaly

johndot said:


> Thanks to one and all for the continued interest!
> 
> There seems to be particular dissatisfaction on the Spanish and Italian forums: is there an identifiable reason for such localised ‘unruliness’? And if you send out daily reminders, Paulfromitaly, do they meet with success? Do members then put correct information in their profiles? Because if not, surely a zero-tolerance policy could be adopted with complete justification?


Most of the time it happens that some new members don't pay attention to the registration procedure and therefore don't realise their are required to put only their native language in that field.
Sometimes some non-native English speaker don't exactly understand what _native language_ means, so they simply list all the languages they know.
It's usually enough to make them aware they made a little mistake to have them edit and modify their profile.
I personally ask those who happen to be bilingual to explicitly specify that in their profile so that it's clear they didn't make a mistake in listing more than one native language.


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## lizzeymac

Paulfromitaly said:


> Most of the time it happens that some new members don't pay attention to the registration procedure and therefore don't realise their are required to put only their native language in that field.
> Sometimes some non-native English speaker don't exactly understand what _native language_ means, so they simply list all the languages they know.
> It's usually enough to make them aware they made a little mistake to have them edit and modify their profile.
> I personally ask those who happen to be bilingual to explicitly specify that in their profile so that it's clear they didn't make a mistake in listing more than one native language.



Sorry if this is a stupid question, but I think PaulfromItaly's point is interesting and it seems a like reasonable explanation.  
When someone registers at WRF how does WRF select what language is used in the registration page?  
Or is the registration process set to English as a default?  
A person in the process of learning English might be able to manage most of the registration process easily as most of the questions are common to any registration process in their textbooks or school exercises, but they might never have run across 'native language' and 'country' as they are used here before.


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## Paulfromitaly

lizzeymac said:


> When someone registers at WRF how does WRF select what language is used in the registration page?


As you can see this is not a silly problem at all.
Native language, Native of, something wrong in the template? 
Although the message you can see  above the "native language" field is very clear



> Native language and the variety you speak, such as "English - Ireland" or  "Mexican Spanish" or "India - Hindi & English", etc. *Do not list the  languages that you are learning*.


some new members don't read it or think that they are no longer learning a language if they can they can speak it quite well


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## lizzeymac

Paulfromitaly said:


> As you can see this is not a silly problem at all.
> Native language, Native of, something wrong in the template?
> Although the message you can see  above the "native language" field is very clear
> 
> some new members don't read it or think that they are no longer learning a language if they can they can speak it quite well



Yes, it's very clear, and there really isn't a way to *make* them fill it out accurately, or to address the issue without being a rude and unkind - 
'Hi, welcome to the Forums, we're pretty sure that you don't speak X language as well as you think you do so please don't call it your native language.'

I have run across posts that really don't seem to have been written by a native X-language speaker and contain odd interpretations or downright errors, but it's hard to know what to do other than to try to post a politely-worded, indirectly-phrased opposing opinion.

English is screwy enough without adding confusions.

I guess that it will just fall to the overworked Mods to PM members who might have made an error in this field.


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## johndot

Some good points there, lizzeymac and Paulfromitaly.
 
Is the registration form only in English? If so, it must be confusing to many; I now remember being puzzled myself when I registered.


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## EmilyD

Alas, I think this issue transcends WR.  I participate in several poetry fora in English and most of them make no attempt to *request *coherent grammar.

I think it has become entirely acceptable to (hahha) always split infinitives...

I make liberal use of the red triangle.

Welcome* johndot*, to the world of the ancients.  

Nomi


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## Cagey

Paulfromitaly said:


> Sometimes some non-native English speaker don't exactly understand what _native language_ means, so they simply list all the languages they know.



Do you think that glossing _native language_ as _mother tongue_ would make it clearer to some people?  I have observed that this is the more familiar term in several languages:
Native language (mother tongue) and the variety you speak, etc.​(Perhaps I misunderstood, and you aren't talking about the English version of the registration form.)


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## TrentinaNE

alexacohen said:


> Then I check the "Native of" bit only to find "paradise lost", "in front of my TV", "english - spanish" and I can't make out what the forero wants.


I strongly encourage reporting posts from such forer@s with a note about the language identification problem.  A moderator can then follow up with a PM to that member.

Elisabetta


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## lizzeymac

TrentinaNE said:


> I strongly encourage reporting posts from such forer@s with a note about the language identification problem.  A moderator can then follow up with a PM to that member.
> 
> Elisabetta



Your request is good enough for me, but is this the opinion of the majority of Mods? To report a post by a member with clearly sketchy/fantastical profile info? 
I see a post that qualifies once a week or so in EO, CD, or C&S.

This thread became particularly relevant today.  
I referred a co-worker to the site and one of the first threads that she read contained an 'answer' from a 'native' English speaker' that contained an inaccurate explanation and was almost untouched by capitalization and punctuation.
She continued reading other threads and admires the site but she did email me the post.


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## danielfranco

I support banning for all chatspeakers, orthographical fiends, contextless-ers and banning-mongers.

Talk about hardliners…
D



P.S. On the other hand, the warning-first/deletion-next model is also fine with me.


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## Paulfromitaly

Cagey said:


> Do you think that glossing _native language_ as _mother tongue_ would make it clearer to some people?  I have observed that this is the more familiar term in several languages:Native language (mother tongue) and the variety you speak, etc.​(Perhaps I misunderstood, and you aren't talking about the English version of the registration form.)


Please check this:
Native language, Native of, something wrong in the template? 

This issue was discussed in detail and we eventually came to the conclusion that "native language" was the best solution.



danielfranco said:


> P.S. On the other hand, the warning-first/deletion-next model is also fine with me.


This is more or less what we already do.
The fact that almost no one reads the WR guidelines during the registration process implies that newbies' first posts reflect the way they usually write or speak.
First we ask them to read the rules and we explain that on WRF we care about proper and standard writing style, then, when needed, we can be a little stricter


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## Cagey

Paulfromitaly said:


> Please check this:
> Native language, Native of, something wrong in the template?
> 
> This issue was discussed in detail and we eventually came to the conclusion that "native language" was the best solution.



I know that thread well.

I was suggesting glossing the term (that is, putting a more recognizable word in brackets next to the official word in the instructions) not revising wording _native language_ as it appears with the post.


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## Kelly B

lizzeymac said:


> Your request is good enough for me, but is this the opinion of the majority of Mods? To report a post by a member with clearly sketchy/fantastical profile info?
> I see a post that qualifies once a week or so in EO, CD, or C&S.
> 
> This thread became particularly relevant today.
> I referred a co-worker to the site and one of the first threads that she read contained an 'answer' from a 'native' English speaker' that contained an inaccurate explanation and was almost untouched by capitalization and punctuation.
> She continued reading other threads and admires the site but she did email me the post.


Yes, please. Perhaps you could report that particular post, or forward it to one of the moderators of the forum in which it appeared. We can, and frequently do, insist that members make an effort to use proper capitalization and spelling, at the very least. We cannot ensure that they provide accurate answers, unfortunately, but I think the community as a whole does a remarkable job of offering polite corrections or clarifications, and providing valid and useful information.

An answer from a native speaker is not necessarily more reliable than one from a non-native; nevertheless, we agree that having native language information is essential to understanding questions as well as replies.


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## lizzeymac

Kelly B said:


> Yes, please. Perhaps you could report that particular post, or forward it to one of the moderators of the forum in which it appeared. We can, and frequently do, insist that members make an effort to use proper capitalization and spelling, at the very least. We cannot ensure that they provide accurate answers, unfortunately, but I think the community as a whole does a remarkable job of offering polite corrections or clarifications, and providing valid and useful information.



In this instance I sent a welcoming, very polite PM, acknowledging the accurate and useful insight they offered (there was _one_), asked that they not make absolute declarations of fact without sharing the reference material for their declaration or sharing an explanation of their reasoning, to think carefully before criticizing another forer@'s post, and also included a clip of the EO rule about capitalization, punctuation, and chatspeak.  I hope that's not a a problem, and I will report to a Mod the next time.




> An answer from a native speaker is not necessarily more reliable than one from a non-native; nevertheless, we agree that having native language information is essential to understanding questions as well as replies.


I certainly know that is true. I wouldn't pit my knowledge of the technical points of grammar against the average English language student. 
In this instance is was an  'idioms - formal vs. casual - does this sound natural' type of post.
Again, I will hit the little triangle next time.


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