# "Chinese" = 普通话?



## dojibear

如果这是错误的论坛，对不起。

In the WR forums, each person lists their "native language". Recently I've noticed that many people list their native language as "Chinese". I'm not sure what that means. 

Does it mean "I speak one of the languages spoken in China"? 
Does it mean "汉语 is my native language"? 
Does it mean "I speak 普通话 and my native language"?


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## SimonTsai

I personally would take it as Mandarin Chinese.

Let's wait for people in the mainland, though.


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## henter

dojibear said:


> 如果这是错误的论坛，对不起。
> 
> In the WR forums, each person lists their "native language". Recently I've noticed that many people list their native language as "Chinese". I'm not sure what that means.
> 
> Does it mean "I speak one of the languages spoken in China"?
> Does it mean "汉语 is my native language"?
> Does it mean "I speak 普通话 and my native language"?


  From my perspective, it has the same meaning. Yet I wouldn't be surprised to find some folk taking exception to this view, arguing that Chinese is by no means mandarin because you also have  lots of Chinese citizens speaking dialects that don't even sound like Chinese or mandarin

  It sounds odd, huh? You know China also has minorities; it even has some white immigrants whose ancestors moved to China from  Old Russia. Scores of Russians also settled down in a Chinese city called Harbin during the World War 2, thereby creating a Russian-speaking community in Harbin. Their offspring still can be found in Harbin. Besides, other minorities living in cities adjacent to Korea, Vietnam, and Thailand  have their own dialects that bear resemblance to such foreign nations' languages, particularly Korean.  It's just like American and British English: the only difference between American and  British English is Brits have their own slang terms; American black English is also different in terms of usage. Well, just my personal views.

Strictly speaking , you are  referring to  mandarin when you mention Chinese, which is the official language in China. On the flip side, people from Southern China would argue that their dialects also have roots in mandarin,  albeit differently. The Northern Chinese also speak  differently in terms of accent and usage if they opt not to speak mandarin-that is to say, they speak different local dialects instead. This chasm is aggravated by the fact that  local inhabitants even have trouble figuring out what you are saying if you speak  _Cantonese_   rather than mandarin   in northern China. 
​


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## T.D

I lived in Melbourne for 5 years and when Aussie say 'Chinese' they actually mean 'Cantonese', probably because of the large number of 广东人 living there.

Generally speaking, I think the term 'Chinese' refers to both Mandarin Chinese as well as all its dialectal derivatives. Is Mandarin Chinese? Yes. Is 上海话 Chinese? Yes. But in any context that is even remotely formal, the Chinese language is Mandarin.

And some dialects are very similar to Mandarin. For example, Japanese table tennis player Fukuhara Ai speaks very good 天津话 and 东北话, thanks to her coach who is from 天津 and the club she played for which is based in 东北. Are 天津话 and 东北话 Mandarin? No. But do we consider her to be able to speak Chinese? Yes. (That being said, if someone only speaks 客家话 or 闽南语, which are way too different from Mandarin, I personally won't say that guy speaks Chinese)


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## ovaltine888

The fact is that among all the major languages spoken in China, Mandarin and Cantonese are the only two with complete writing systems. That is why the two are commonly regarded as "languages" while others, such as 上海话、闽南话、东北话、四川话, are considered "dialects".

The usage of these dialects is strictly limited to informal, face-to-face occasions as the information cannot be properly conveyed in a written format, even in a message exchange on the phone. Therefore, people living in China have to employ Mandarin as their "first language" to communicate with others most of the time, although their mother tongues de facto may be "dialects".


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## SuperXW

ovaltine888 said:


> The fact is that among all the major languages spoken in China, Mandarin and Cantonese are the only two with complete writing systems. That is why the two are commonly regarded as "languages" while others, such as 上海话、闽南话、东北话、四川话, are considered "dialects".


Whether Cantonese is a dialect is often controversial, but I never heard someone claimed "Cantonese had a complete writing system". Not even Cantonese speakers would agree.
广东话嘅字通常都系借用同音汉字啫，并冇自己嘅文字，亦都冇普遍实施的标准。
这和侬提到的上海话没有区别好伐。

In my experience, Cantonese is often argued to be a language because:
1. its pronunciation and vocabulary are significantly different to Mandarin, and;
2. it had unique cultural influence globally, as Hong Kong and Canton province had been exporting population and culture.


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## ovaltine888

有粤语字幕，我理解粤语书写虽然是借字，但相对还是有一定规律的

但没有吴语字幕，因为上海话虽然也能借字写，但是大多是强行拟音，每个人写出来的版本都不一样。比如究竟是 惨孤 还是 残古？

另外上海话还包含文白异读，理论上普通话文稿可以也用上海话发音逐字读，不知道其他方言是否也可以？


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## SuperXW

ovaltine888 said:


> 但没有吴语字幕，因为上海话虽然也能借字写，但是大多是强行拟音，每个人写出来的版本都不一样。比如究竟是 惨孤 还是 残古？


你是不了解粤语，粤语也一样。
不知你在哪里看到“粤语字幕”，除了口语字强行拟音，版本不一样以外，还有繁简混乱，白话与标准汉语混用等问题。


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## stephenlearner

If a foreigner speaks good Mandarin, I'd praise him by saying "Your Chinese is excellent." I could say "Your Mandarin is excellent", but I choose not. So here, Chinese = Mandarin=中国话 (not 普通话).

If this same person can speak good 四川话, 或河南话, 或广东话, I would not say "Your Chinese is very good." Rather, I'd say "Your 四川话 is very good, or your 河南话/广东话 is very good."

So, in THIS context I think Chinese refers to only Mandarin.

But not in other contexts. For example, if you ask me about an old man who is born and grows up in China, and can only speak 河南 or 四川 or 广东 dialect, "What language does he speak?" I'd not hesitate to say "He speaks Chinese." Here, Chinese doesn't refer to Mandarin. It means he doesn't speak Korean or Tibetan or Mongolian or any other language of an enthic group (other than 汉族) in China. Here, Chinese means the language spoken by 汉族. It's an umbrella term. It contains Mandarin and other dialects.


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## ovaltine888

stephenlearner said:


> If a foreigner speaks good Mandarin, I'd praise him by saying "Your Chinese is excellent." I could say "Your Mandarin is excellent", but I choose not. So here, Chinese = Mandarin=中国话 (not 普通话).
> 
> If this same person can speak good 四川话, 或河南话, 或广东话, I would not say "Your Chinese is very good." Rather, I'd say "Your 四川话 is very good, or your 河南话/广东话 is very good."
> 
> So, in THIS context I think Chinese refers to only Mandarin.
> 
> But not in other contexts. For example, if you ask me about an old man who is born and grows up in China, and can only speak 河南 or 四川 or 广东 dialect, "What language does he speak?" I'd not hesitate to say "He speaks Chinese." Here, Chinese doesn't refer to Mandarin. It means he doesn't speak Korean or Tibetan or Mongolian or any other language of an enthic group (other than 汉族) in China. Here, Chinese means the language spoken by 汉族. It's an umbrella term. It contains Mandarin and other dialects.


I agree with you, by and large, from the perspective of a native "Chinese" speaker.

The thing is that the difference between Mandarin and some southern Chinese dialects, say, 广东话/闽南话/上海话, may be as remote as Portuguese is to Italian. People can hardly understand each other, though these vernaculars may still share a substantial portion of syntax and vocabulary.

So, can we deem "Chinese" as an umbrella term as you said, like "Romance languages" in Europe?


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## stephenlearner

Actually, I don't know. It's hard to give a conclusive and definitive opinion. I know if I side with either side, a controversy would soon arise.


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## Flaminius

ovaltine888 said:


> So, can we deem "Chinese" as an umbrella term as you said, like "Romance languages" in Europe?


It is possible to have an umbrella concept that includes various dialects such as Mandarin, Cantonese, Hokkien, Sichuan, and so on.  Using "Chinese" for this concept, however, is pretty awkward to say the least.  In fact, I'd expect Chinese to be an equivalent of Mandarin.  The label for the umbrella concept would be Chinese languages, or Sinitic languages.


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## SuperXW

If someone speaks "standard Chinese", I bet he/she speaks Mandarin.


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## Celine lim

I found the definition of "Chinese" in the Wikipedia. And I think it might be useful to you.
Here's the link: The definition of Chinese in the Wikipedia

In my opinion, *strictly speaking*, Chinese is a group of language varieties. "Chinese" could not only refer to one of the specific languages,
e.g,

"Chinese" includes "Mandarin", but "Chinese"≠ 'Mandarin“
"Chinese" includes “Cantonese", but "Chinese"≠ "Cantonese"
But *in general*, when we talking about "Chinese", it could be refer to "Mandarin” as it is the first language in both China and Taiwan. ( no politics)

By the way, Chinese=中囯話， Mandarin=普通話， Cantonese=粵語，Taiwanese= 臺灣話/臺語=(strictly speaking）閩南語
(Cantonese and Taiwanese, or other local languages, such as 河南話、四川話, are dialects from different regions. And for convenience, we mostly use Mandarin to communicate)

Hope it can help you


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## dojibear

I (an American) consider "Chinese" to be a group of languages (like French, Portuguese, Italian...). But the wikipedia article says that native speakers usually consider these to be variants (dialects) of one language. It says:

_The spoken varieties of Chinese are usually considered by native speakers to be variants of a single language. Due to their lack of mutual intelligibility, however, they are classified as separate languages in a family by some linguists, who note that the varieties are as divergent as the Romance languages."_

Post #14 also points out the difference between 中囯話 and 普通話:



Celine lim said:


> Chinese=中囯話， Mandarin=普通話



These two ideas explain why a native speaker might list "Chinese" (meaning 中囯話) as their native language,
especially when writing in English.

I realize that others have already expressed these ideas in this forum. 我有时第一次读不懂。

谢谢大家


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## ovaltine888

dojibear said:


> I (an American) consider "Chinese" to be a group of languages (like French, Portuguese, Italian...). But the wikipedia article says that native speakers usually consider these to be variants (dialects) of one language. It says:
> 
> _The spoken varieties of Chinese are usually considered by native speakers to be variants of a single language. Due to their lack of mutual intelligibility, however, they are classified as separate languages in a family by some linguists, who note that the varieties are as divergent as the Romance languages."_


You are right. Native speakers tend to consider the dialects as "variants of one single language: Chinese". However, some dialects are easier to understand than others for people from different parts of China, as the "mutual intelligibility" varies.

Therefore, I have to say Chinese dialects are actually more divergent than we think they are.


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## SuperXW

dojibear said:


> _Due to their lack of mutual intelligibility, however, they are classified as separate languages in a family by some linguists, who note that the varieties are as divergent as the Romance languages._
> 
> Post #14 also points out the difference between 中囯話 and 普通話:
> 
> These two ideas explain why a native speaker might list "Chinese" (meaning 中囯話) as their native language,
> especially when writing in English.


The separation of phonetics and writing system seem to be a crucial difference between Chinese languages and Romance languages.
The way of uttering Chinese can differ a lot, however, Chinese has a mutual intelligible writing system, which is more consistent comparing to Romance languages.
Modern Chinese writing system only reflects vocabulary and grammar in Mandarin, not any other variant (Cantonese, etc.) 
So you'll get this feeling: when speaking, there's Mandarin, Cantonese...when writing, there's only "Chinese".


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## dojibear

SuperXW said:


> Chinese has a mutual intelligible writing system, which is more consistent comparing to Romance languages.


The writing system can't be used for all the different languages in China. It is only used for Mandarin. So it isn't "mutually intelligible". You have to learn Mandarin (words and grammar) to use it.

I think you mean that many Chinese people don't speak Mandarin, but know written Mandarin. They can text others who also read/write Mandarin, even if they cannot understand each other's speech. Many TV shows have sub-titles in Mandarin, for viewers who can read Mandarin but can't speak it. In my opinion, that is wonderful. That helps many people communicate.

According to an article I recently saw, in 2020 80% of the people in China understand Mandarin. That is a 27% increase, just in the last 20 years:

2020年，中国约有80.72％的人会说普通话，比2000年多了27.66％。在中国，不是所有的人都说普通话，有很多人说上海话，广东话，四川话等。为了让大家交流方便，中国教育一直在推广普通话。现在说普通话的人越来越多了。到现在，已经有528万人参加了普通话水平考试。

The article is about spoken Mandarin. Perhaps for writing the number is higher than 80%.


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## ovaltine888

dojibear said:


> The writing system can't be used for all the different languages in China. It is only used for Mandarin. So it isn't "mutually intelligible". You have to learn Mandarin (words and grammar) to use it.



I think native speakers will say, for most Chinese dialects, grammar is not an issue, vocabulary may differ but largely comprehensible, but it is the pronunciation that makes them difficult to understand.

The writing system is generally shared. As i said in the previous post, basically I am able to read aloud a piece of text written in Mandarin in a SHANGHAIESE TONE. Please note such a speech is usually regarded as "formal Shanghaiese" instead of "dialectal Mandarin". That is to say, I don't think I am speaking Mandarin; I am speaking Shanghaiese in a formal manner, which is recordable in writing and understandable to people speaking other dialects by reading.


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## dojibear

Thanks for your corrections and explanations.

I re-watched a video about Chinese languages (including history). It matches your descriptions. It says that Standard Chinese (Mandarin) fills the role that Classical Chinese used to fill: it is the official written language used by speakers of all varieties of Chinese, for most purposes.


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## stephenlearner

I am from north of China. People say we don't understand Cantonese at all. However, if a Cantonese person (using Cantonese pronunciation) reads to me a prose or a novel written in Mandarin by moden authors, I have no difficulty understanding what he reads. So what causes the non-intelligibility is not the Cantonese pronunciation, but their vocabulary. Because when they chat with their local folk, they use many words we don't know at all. Mandarin and Cantonese share lots of words, but there are many words (what percentage?) in Cantonese unique to them. Without much exposure to and learning of these words, it's hard to understand what they convey.


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## SuperXW

dojibear said:


> The writing system can't be used for all the different languages in China. It is only used for Mandarin. So it isn't "mutually intelligible". You have to learn Mandarin (words and grammar) to use it.
> 
> I think you mean that many Chinese people don't speak Mandarin, but know written Mandarin. They can text others who also read/write Mandarin, even if they cannot understand each other's speech. Many TV shows have sub-titles in Mandarin, for viewers who can read Mandarin but can't speak it. In my opinion, that is wonderful. That helps many people communicate.
> 
> According to an article I recently saw, in 2020 80% of the people in China understand Mandarin. That is a 27% increase, just in the last 20 years:
> 
> 2020年，中国约有80.72％的人会说普通话，比2000年多了27.66％。在中国，不是所有的人都说普通话，有很多人说上海话，广东话，四川话等。为了让大家交流方便，中国教育一直在推广普通话。现在说普通话的人越来越多了。到现在，已经有528万人参加了普通话水平考试。
> 
> The article is about spoken Mandarin. Perhaps for writing the number is higher than 80%.


Some facts:
1. Chinese grammar in all Chinese languages/dialects are 99% same. People don't really need to learn new grammar.
2. Most words are also the same or similar.
3. Standard Chinese ("Mandarin words and grammar") is taught since elementary schools. The local languages (dialects) also recognize those words and grammar as the standard.
4. There are still people who cannot speak Mandarin, usually elder ones and less-educated people. But most of them just can't pronounce the sentences in Mandarin, most of them can still understand and write Mandarin, or "standard Chinese".
5. If you insist calling it "written Mandarin" instead of "written Chinese", you'll find it strange as "written Cantonese/Shanghaiese/..." don't exist. That's why the country promotes one standard writing system based on Mandarin.


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