# mindless



## Lorena1970

"We must dare to think about 'unthinkable things' because when things become unthinkable, thinking stops and action becomes mindless."
Can anybody help me to properly translating the words in red?

"Dobbiamo osare pensare cose impensabili, perchè quando le cose diventano impensabili, si smette di pensare e l'azione diventa libera"

Can this be a proper translation (I don't need a litteraly one, but best a meaningful one)

Thank you all for any help


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## Paulfromitaly

Lorena1970 said:


> "We must dare to think about 'unthinkable things' because when things become unthinkable, thinking stops and action becomes mindless."
> Can anybody help me to properly translating the words in red?
> 
> "Dobbiamo osare pensare cose impensabili, perchè quando le cose diventano impensabili, si smette di pensare e l'azione diventa *insensata*"
> 
> Can this be a proper translation (I don't need a litteraly one, but best a meaningful one)
> 
> Thank you all for any help


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## Hockey13

Dobbiamo osare pensare cose impensabili, perché quando le cose diventano impensabili, si smette di pensare e l'azione diventa scervellata.


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## Murphy

.......senza scopo ?


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## underhouse

Che ne dite di "irrazionale"?


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## kittykate

I like _libera_ very much, in the sense of _free from the mind's constraints_. To me, _mindless_ has a positive meaning here - which is why _irrazionale_ may not work, though very appropriate, because of its negative nuance.

caterina


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## Hockey13

kittykate said:


> I like _libera_ very much, in the sense of _free from the mind's constraints_. To me, _mindless_ has a positive meaning here - which is why _irrazionale_ may not work, though very appropriate, because of its negative nuance.
> 
> caterina



No, mindless does not have a positive meaning here. You can gain this from the beginning of the sentence when they say "we must dare to...etc...or action will become mindless."


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## kittykate

Lorena1970 said:


> "We must dare to think about 'unthinkable things' because when things become unthinkable, thinking stops and action becomes mindless."


 


Hockey13 said:


> No, mindless does not have a positive meaning here. You can gain this from the beginning of the sentence when they say "we must dare to...etc...or action will become mindless."


 
I know it's YOUR native language, Hockey, and not MINE, but I disagree.
I think the meaning is:
If we don't dare to push our thoughts beyond what can be thought, we will always be constrained by thought itself and never be able to (say) have a vision.

What do you think? Couldn't it be?

caterina


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## Hockey13

> We must dare to think about 'unthinkable things' because when things become unthinkable, thinking stops and action becomes mindless.



Analizziamo questa frase. C'è "We must dare to think about unthinkable things" che viene tradotta come "Dobbiamo osare pensare cose impensabili." E' assolutamente necessario pensare a questo tipo di cose, no? Se non accadono questi pensieri abbiamo allora il problema che quando cose diventano impensabili, l'atto di pensare si ferma e l'azione diventa spenta, fosca, noiosa, ecc. L'importante qui è che la parola "unthinkable" non vuol dire una cosa a cui è difficile pensare, ma una cosa a cui non è normale pensare.

Spero di avermi spiegato.


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## kittykate

Ti sei spiegato benissimo, Hockey. Ma io sono cocciuta 
Maybe a couple more sentences could help me...
Anyway, I'll clear my mind and come back to this later.

caterina

EDIT: This is the whole sentence. I'll go back to it later anyway, my mind's on food only, now 

_A Quote from J. William Fulbright_
*“*We must dare to think ‘unthinkable’ thoughts. We must learn to explore all the options and possibilities that confront us in a complex and rapidly changing world. We must learn to welcome and not to fear the voices of dissent. We must dare to think about ‘unthinkable things’ because when things become unthinkable, thinking stops and action becomes mindless.*“*​


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## SunDraw

Spensierata

A mente libera.



Hockey13 said:


> Spero di *essermi* spiegato.


No, ha ragione Hockey13:
"Dobbiamo osare pensare alle cose impensate (cui normalmente non si pensa), perchè quando le cose diventano impensabili, il pensiero si paralizza e l'azione diventa sconsiderata (incosciente)."
Non credo "mindless" possa mai intendersi "free-minded".
___
_(Please forgive & correct my English, thank you)_


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## kittykate

I can't indeed seem to find _mindless_ in the sense I meant, so it looks like you are both right.
Too bad, though, because I liked my version better 

caterina


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## spensierata

Wait kittykate, I agree with you. "Mindless" can indeed be translated as "free-minded," especially with the Zen overtones of your quote. Even though it's common to hear "mindless conversation" or "mindless repetition" used in a negative way, it's also possible to say something like "mindlessly attentive" or "mindless activity" in a positive way.

I read a lot of metaphysical books and, although less common, I'm sure Deepak Chopra, Gary Zukav, Eckhart Tolle, Wayne Dyer, etc. would use "mindless" in a very positive way. I think your translation is fine.

A proposito and since it's related to this topic, I've always wondered if my screen name means both "carefree" and "thoughtless." Obviously I intended the first.


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## Arrabbiato

Si, sono d'accordo con Hockey e SunDraw.   Solo la parola "scervellata" mi ha senso qua.

Lorena, correzione:  "Can anybody help me to properly *translate* the words in red?

Can this be a proper translation (I don't need a *literal* one, but *at *best a meaningful one)


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## kittykate

spensierata said:


> Wait kittykate, I agree with you. "Mindless" can indeed be translated as "free-minded," especially with the Zen overtones of your quote. Even though it's common to hear "mindless conversation" or "mindless repetition" used in a negative way, it's also possible to say something like "mindlessly attentive" or "mindless activity" in a positive way.
> 
> I read a lot of metaphysical books and, although less common, I'm sure Deepak Chopra, Gary Zukav, Eckhart Tolle, Wayne Dyer, etc. would use "mindless" in a very positive way. I think your translation is fine.
> 
> A proposito and since it's related to this topic, I've always wondered if my screen name means both "carefree" and "thoughtless." Obviously I intended the first.


 
Thank you for your vote in favor, spensierata! 

After a night's sleep, I still find this sentence baffling. Anyway...

A proposito, your screen name does mean _carefree_ 
Thoughtless would be _sconsiderata_, _menefreghista_, _superficiale_.

caterina


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## Lorena1970

Thanks everybody, and sorry for delay in getting back. Personally, I agree with Spensierata and kittykate, because the meaning of the sentence  is that one ktykate explained, that is to say that only if we dare thinking to unthinkable things our actions become free, light, creative. In effect the doubt about how to translate it was connected to the doubt of the general meaning of the sentence. The sentence is by Fulbright, as quoted by kittykate, and, after reading all of your posts, I am still convinced that mindless in this context means "libero" or "creativo", anyway it has a positive menaning.
Again many thanks indeed to you all.
Lorena

P.S. Thanks to Arrabbiato for correcting my mistakes 
Lorena


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## Hockey13

Lorena1970 said:


> Thanks everybody, and sorry for delay in getting back. Personally, I agree with Spensierata and kittykate, because the meaning of the sentence  is that one ktykate explained, that is to say that only if we dare thinking to unthinkable things our actions become free, light, creative. In effect the doubt about how to translate it was connected to the doubt of the general meaning of the sentence. The sentence is by Fulbright, as quoted by kittykate, and, after reading all of your posts, I am still convinced that mindless in this context means "libero" or "creativo", anyway it has a positive menaning.
> Again many thanks indeed to you all.
> Lorena



I sincerely think you are wrong. The only people who believe it has a positive meaning are an Italian native speaker and one English native. The rest of the posters think it has a negative meaning in this context.


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## Necsus

Maybe this interpretation could be useful:
[...] the meaning of thought is vague, shifty, and provisional. The proof of this can be seen in a survey of the ideas of a few great thinkers. These range from René Descartes' claim that thought confirms existence (“I think, therefore I am”) to John Dewey's belief that thought remakes the world (“Anyone who has begun to think places some portion of the world in jeopardy”) _to J.William Fulbright's vision of thinking as the key to true freedom_ (“We must dare [...] mindless”).


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## Lorena1970

Thank you necsus, the link is very useful. But in the end I still don't understand if the fact that "actions become mindless" is positive or negative.....


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## housecameron

Hockey13 said:


> I sincerely think you are wrong. The only people who believe it has a positive meaning are an Italian native speaker and one English native. The rest of the posters think it has a negative meaning in this context.


 
Hi Hockey! 
Here is another Italian native speaker who is going to bother the audience.
To me the meaning of _mindless_ is positive just because the sentence starts with _"we must dare..."._
I agree with KK.


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## Memimao

We usually speak of mindless destruction, mindless hatred, mindless violence, mindless butality, mindless tedium. I have never heard mindless used positively. 

It has nothing to do with freedom and a lot to do with slavery to base instincts, which is what the original at the start of this thread intended.


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## Hockey13

housecameron said:


> Hi Hockey!
> Here is another Italian native speaker who is going to bother the audience.
> To me the meaning of _mindless_ is positive just because the sentence starts with _"we must dare..."._
> I agree with KK.



Hi, Cameron. I'm sorry to say this, but you and the other Italian natives who think this is positive _are not right_. You can disagree with me all you like, but there is no situation ever ever ever where "mindless" at the end of this sentence can be seen as a positive thing. _You're looking at the wrong words_.

We must dare to think about 'unthinkable things' because _when things become unthinkable_ (= otherwise), thinking stops and action becomes mindless.

We must do this one thing, OR this other thing will happen.


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## kittykate

housecameron said:


> To me the meaning of _mindless_ is positive just because the sentence starts with _"we must dare..."._


 
This is exactly what I originally thought, housecameron. 
Then I changed my mind...again...and again...and again...
Necsus' link, the natives' opionions... 

At the end of the day (__), I give up. At least for the time being 

caterina


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## Memimao

Lorena1970 said:


> "We must dare to think about 'unthinkable things' because when things become unthinkable, thinking stops and action becomes mindless."
> Can anybody help me to properly translating the words in red?
> 
> "Dobbiamo osare pensare cose impensabili, perchè quando le cose diventano impensabili, si smette di pensare e l'azione diventa libera"
> 
> Can this be a proper translation (I don't need a litteraly one, but best a meaningful one)
> 
> Thank you all for any help


 

My try at translation:

Dobbiamo osare a pensare a ciò che ci scandalizza, perché quando le cose diventano scandolo, il pensiero si ferma, e l'azione diventa istintiva


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## luta

Hello, 
I'm not english so I may be wrong, but reading the sentence I think that "mindless" could have the meaning of " non logical action". Just a reaction with non logical sense in response to an illogical situation. 
So it have not a positive nor negative meaning. In italian we have many words to describe this like "insensato or irrazionale".
I'll read with interest any answer.


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## housecameron

Hi Hockey, 

I got it for about 1 minute thanks to your "= otherwise" then I'm here again stuck in the mud.
Anyway, thanks for your "kind" patience. 
I swear I will not say that mindless is positive any longer.



PS Hi KittyK!


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## Memimao

Credeteci, mindlessness is negative as we choose to use it.


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## Hockey13

housecameron said:


> Hi Hockey,
> 
> I got it for about 1 minute thanks to your "= otherwise" then I'm here again stuck in the mud.
> Anyway, thanks for your "kind" patience.
> I swear I will not say that mindless is positive any longer.
> 
> 
> 
> PS Hi KittyK!



Sorry if I seemed to be unkind. I didn't mean it. 

It was the third or fourth time I tried to explain it and I was trying to say it more clearly.


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## spensierata

Hockey13 said:


> Hi, Cameron. I'm sorry to say this, but you and the other Italian natives who think this is positive _are not right_. You can disagree with me all you like, but there is no situation ever ever ever where "mindless" at the end of this sentence can be seen as a positive thing. _You're looking at the wrong words_.
> 
> We must dare to think about 'unthinkable things' because _when things become unthinkable_ (= otherwise), thinking stops and action becomes mindless.
> 
> We must do this one thing, OR this other thing will happen.




I'm sorry, I respectfully disagree. I strongly believe that mindless can be used positively, but I'll address that in a minute.

I can't agree with the logic that "when things become unthinkable = otherwise." That's quite a stretch of literary license. In the following sentence: "We must dare to eat things we have previously not eaten because when new things are eaten the things we had previously eaten become fertilizer," you would never say that "when new things are eaten = otherwise," it just isn't logical. And in fact, the correct connective is not an adversative connective (otherwise) but the one the author used himself, the causal connective "because." Additionally, "becoming fertilizer" is understood to be a positive thing as a consequence of the first 3 words of the quote.

To simplify it even further:
We must dare to A, because when A happens, B follows, and C is the end result. There's no grammatical or logical way to insert an adversative connective like "otherwise." (Unless you're opposed to the end result "C.")
 ;-)

I can see the disagreement here lies entirely on whether someone feels "mindless" has positive or negative connotation. I assure you that for many people who understand the limits of the conscious mind and who have studied for years in order to relegate it to a subordinate position (I'm not talking about flaky new-age hippies or the intellectually inept, but rather deeply respected Buddhist monks among others), that "mindless" carries an extraordinarily positive connotation. The now-common translation of "monkey mind" to describe the condition of distracting, circular thought illustrates the Eastern disregard for too much mental activity.

When I read "We must dare to think about unthinkable things because when things become unthinkable, thinking stops and action becomes mindless," there's no doubt to me that "mindless action" is something the author is encouraging the reader to strive for. Like Housecameron wrote, the opening "We must dare to..." is certainly a request to go beyond what is considered normal and correct.

We may never agree on whether "mindless" is positive or negative, but grammatically the sentence is clear: mindless is being used in a positive way.


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## Beccaccia

_Mindless is in my opinion an “*altered state’* of the brain where the brain is functioning but not in necessarily logical way. . . .consequently there are “mindless monks” who can approach an “altered state” that has a spiritual function for them, but there are mindless drug addicts whose “altered state” knows no logical parameters. _
*We must dare to think about 'unthinkable things*' _a challenge to new concepts. . . . (here is the ridiculous part) *“*_*because when things become unthinkable*,” _actually the mind cannot be restricted to anything “Unthinkable” and the next part “_thinking stops and action becomes mindless” _Logical action might “pause’ but not stop. . so my conclusion is that there cannot be “mindless action” does not make sense._

_All of you have interesting posts, this really make the great club _

Qua

M


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## Veledan

_"we would hope, that men can learn to live in peace- eventually even to cooperate in constructive activities rather than compete in mindless contest of mutual destruction."_ -- J.William Fulbright, speech on the thirtieth anniversary of the Fulbright Program, 1976

_"Along with promoting militarism as part of our society, the mindless violence of war has eaten away at our moral values as well as our sensitivity."_ -- J.William Fulbright, The Pentagon propaganda machine, Vintage Books, 1971

_"We must dare to think about 'unthinkable things,' because when things become 'unthinkable,' thinking stops and actions becomes mindless."_ -- J. William Fulbright, from a Senate address on foreign policy, March 27, 1964.

The above sentence is from a passage defending the right to free speech and thought. Another sentence from the same passage might help clarify it:

_"But when our perceptions fail to keep pace with events, when we refuse to believe something because it displeases or frightens us, or is simply startlingly unfamiliar, then the gap between fact and perceptions becomes a chasm, and action becomes irrelevant and irrational."_ 

The meaning of the word _mindless_ may or may not be changing, but I hope the above quotes will help make clear how the author meant it!

Vel


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## Memimao

Perhaps more context would help. I, too, have experience of deep prayer, and the abandoning of the ego in order to _listen_ is certainly a state that can be described as mindless, because the person praying has decided to cease thinking. Nirvana can be achieved only through the distancing of my mind to allow entry of the divine mind.

However, in the brief text given, we are exhorted to _think_ the unthinkable, which is the exact antithesis of comtemplation. My reading of the text is philosphical, not religious, and I read _mindless_ in its more widespread application.

Who wrote it?

Edit: Yes Veledan, that is how I was reading it from the start


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## spensierata

Veledan said:


> _"we would hope, that men can learn to live in peace- eventually even to cooperate in constructive activities rather than compete in mindless contest of mutual destruction."_ -- J.William Fulbright, speech on the thirtieth anniversary of the Fulbright Program, 1976
> 
> _"Along with promoting militarism as part of our society, the mindless violence of war has eaten away at our moral values as well as our sensitivity."_ -- J.William Fulbright, The Pentagon propaganda machine, Vintage Books, 1971
> 
> _"We must dare to think about 'unthinkable things,' because when things become 'unthinkable,' thinking stops and actions becomes mindless."_ -- J. William Fulbright, from a Senate address on foreign policy, March 27, 1964.
> 
> The above sentence is from a passage defending the right to free speech and thought. Another sentence from the same passage might help clarify it:
> 
> _"But when our perceptions fail to keep pace with events, when we refuse to believe something because it displeases or frightens us, or is simply startlingly unfamiliar, then the gap between fact and perceptions becomes a chasm, and action becomes irrelevant and irrational."_
> 
> The meaning of the word _mindless_ may or may not be changing, but I hope the above quotes will help make clear how the author meant it!
> 
> Vel



Hmm, very interesting. Thanks for finding these quotes. After reading the second quote about fact and perceptions I'm now questioning how Fulbright meant to use "mindless." 

Perhaps more importantly, was his address to the Senate spoken? If so, this would change things dramatically, in my opinion. Rarely are people as eloquent verbally as they are with the written word. And often times they (politicians adept at circumlocution in particular) rely more on gestures, attitude, atmosphere and the context of what's already been said, than on the substance of what's coming from their mouths. I don't know anything about Fulbright, his philosophy or his oration, but after reading his two quotes I wonder if we all may be giving more attention to his words than he did!

All in all, I'm enjoying this discussion.


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## Veledan

Yes it was a spoken address, and I think we have probably been quoting from someone else's transcription of it--I'm not certain about that, but I have found only secondary sources for that particular speech. Fulbright was extremely eloquent and I'd find it hard to believe he didn't consider every word he said, but in truth I find it hard to understand him at all. He was vehemently libertarian and anti-war (as the above quotes demonstrate), but also vehemently racist--he did his utmost to stop black people being given equal rights in the US, by both fair means and foul. He didn't exactly get on with Jewish people either.

For the translation, I do think it's clear he understood the word _mindless_ to be negative (I didn't select those quotes, they were the only three occasions I could find where he'd used the word) but I find him difficult to interpret despite the exceptional lucidity of his writing!

Vel


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