# les banlieues



## g.cassanova

how would you translate "les banlieues"


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## lhb

Hello
http://fr.wordreference.com/fr/en/translation.asp?fren=banlieue : so, suburbs I guess


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## Gil

the suburbs


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## Agnès E.

À noter, cependant, une récente connotion typiquement française à ce mot : 

- *LA* banlieue = les différentes agglomérations entourant une très grande ville (Paris, Lyon, Marseille, etc.) 
_J'habite à Orly, c'est dans la banlieue Sud de Paris._
Trouvé ici : _En 1990, il crée son école de cuisine à Ecully, dans la banlieue de Lyon dans un magnifique château, une école des arts culinaires et de l'hôtellerie_ 

- *LES* banlieues = terme péjoratif pour évoquer les différentes villes où sont regroupés d'immenses HLM, principaux foyers des problèmes sociaux évoqués ces derniers jours en France.


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## zam

I have a problem with 'suburbs' for 'banlieues' (I presume you're referring to the rioting Parisian 'banlieues'). I usually much prefer the 'inner-city areas' even if these 'banlieues' are not w/in the city boundaries, I feel it conveys what 'banlieues' are more accurately. 'Suburbs' can even be 'un contre-sens' as it often conjures up images of a rather 'middle-class area' in the UK.


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## Amityville

Yes - suburbs are sedate and sometimes dormitory.


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## xav

Unfortunately, this word is too difficult to pronounce to become English...


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## Stephanagreg

zam said:


> I have a problem with 'suburbs' for 'banlieues' (I presume you're referring to the rioting Parisian 'banlieues'). I usually much prefer the 'inner-city areas' even if these 'banlieues' are not w/in the city boundaries, I feel it conveys what 'banlieues' are more accurately. 'Suburbs' can even be 'un contre-sens' as it often conjures up images of a rather 'middle-class area' in the UK.


 
I cannot remember what term was then used by the English media. I don't think it was 'inner-city areas', though (althouh Zam is indeed right to point out that what the term connotes is much closer to the idea conveyed by "banlieues" than 'suburbs'.). 

'Slums' would obviously be too strong a word.

Would any other native English speakers suggest an alternative translation here ?

(And, by the way, could I ask how you would go about translating 'ZUP' - or 'ZEP' ?)


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## sandera

g.cassanova said:


> how would you translate "les banlieues"


Bonsoir,
As eveyone has rightly translated..suburbs...I have also heard...outskirts...as being an acceptable translation.
S.


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## Kat LaQ

Hello.  There is also the word "projects", but that refers more to a certain type of housing (tall apartment buildings in very bad condition with no stores or commercial life at street level) than to where the housing is located.  I mention it because you do see it and hear it in the news.  

Most projects are in the city, not the suburbs, but as the suburbs grow, they sometimes develop city-like problems, of course.

I also like sandera's suggestion of outskirts.  Perhaps something like: "housing developments on the outskirts of city X".


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## RuK

ZUPs and ZEPs, however, are usually translated as projects.


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## viera

It sounds strange to continue using "projects" to refer to housing that has not only been built, but has also had time to become rundown.


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## dnldnl

What's the difference between _banlieue_ and _faubourgs_? 

Recently, I saw them used in the same sentence: _Aujourd'hui Paris avec ses faubourgs et sa banlieue est une ville immense_.


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## Stephanagreg

viera said:


> It sounds strange to continue using "projects" to refer to housing that has not only been built, but has also had time to become rundown.


 
What about "underprivileged areas in the near vicinity of the big French cities" or something like that ? A bit longish I know -


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## Kenneth Garland

In Britain, we would refer to 'council estates' for public housing - even just 'estate', if the context was clear.


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## RuK

Projects is short for low-cost housing projects. I know it's strange, but these are usually 30 year-old buildings!


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## zam

Stephanagreg said:


> What about "underprivileged areas in the near vicinity of the big French cities" or something like that ? A bit longish I know -


 
Salut stephan, j'espère que ta prép agreg' n'est plus qu'un mauvais souvenir...
 
‘Deprived’ (estates) is much more used than ‘underprivileged’ in this context.
 
Other possibilities include:
 
…the deprived suburbs 
…the run-down/bleak/poor projects/housing estates/suburban council estates 
(or even ‘low-income’ housing estates/neighbourhoods)
 
…qui entourent Paris: 
that ring/surround (or ‘ringing’) Paris or ‘outer’ estates (as opposed to ‘inner city’).


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## Stephanagreg

Merci à vous tous, et un grand merci à toi, Zam !! (Excellent, comme toujours.)



zam said:


> Salut stephan, j'espère que ta prép agreg' n'est plus qu'un mauvais souvenir...


 
Pas si mauvais, après tout...  

A bientôt !


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## mgarizona

zam said:


> ‘Deprived’ (estates) is much more used than ‘underprivileged’ in this context.


 
Not in AE it isn't.

One could generalize something along the lines of "economically depressed sectors of metropolitan areas throughout France" to follow Stephan's lead.


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## Cath.S.

mgarizona said:


> Not in AE it isn't.
> 
> One could generalize something along the lines of "economically depressed sectors of metropolitan areas throughout France" to follow Stephan's lead.


C'est longuet. Ne me dis pas que cette réalité est spécifique à la France ?


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## mgarizona

egueule said:


> C'est longuet. Ne me dis pas que cette réalité est spécifique à la France ?


 
Not at all. I simply thought it was France's _banlieues_ which were under discussion.

As for its length, yes, but I've found at times where a word is lacking it's sometimes necessary to translate the definition.

It ain't pretty ... but it gets the job done.


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## zam

mgarizona said:


> 1) Not in AE it isn't.
> 
> 2) One could generalize something along the lines of "economically depressed sectors of metropolitan areas throughout France" to follow Stephan's lead.


 
1) I’m surprised to hear that but ‘deprived’ when associated with ‘suburbs’ or ‘estates’ is definitely more common in BE than ‘underprivileged’. It seems to be the case as well on Google (‘underprivileged estates’: 77,900 results; ‘deprived estates’: 1,060,000).
 
2) In his posts#8 and #14 Stéphane is merely concerning himself with the english translation of the french phrase ‘banlieues’ (défavorisées) –or ‘cités’- at the time of the November 2005 riots in France, as he writes in post#8: ‘I cannot remember what term was then used by the English media’.
 
Your translation is spot on sociologically speaking but it is unnecessarily long IMO (what’s wrong with ‘deprived estates/suburbs’?). 
Moreover, ‘economically depressed sectors of metropolitan areas’’ (in short= ‘les banlieues défavorisées’) doesn’t quite capture the grittiness conveyed by the term ‘banlieues’ taken in the present context.
 
BTW Stéphane, ZEP = EAZ (Education Action Zone –UK term).


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## HogansIslander

Is the geographic location of these areas the important thing to convey, or is it their socio-economic reality?  Longer things like "bleak outer suburbs" maybe make sense for an article about 'banlieues' specifically where you might care that they are outside the city centre,  but if you just want to say that someone comes from a rough area of town, then "he grew up in the projects" (or 'council estates' for a UK audience) conveys the essential information.


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## zam

HogansIslander said:


> Is the geographic location of these areas the important thing to convey, or is it their socio-economic reality? Longer things like "bleak outer suburbs" maybe make sense for an article about 'banlieues' specifically where you might care that they are outside the city centre, but if you just want to say that someone comes from a rough area of town, then "he grew up in the projects" (or 'council estates' for a UK audience) conveys the essential information.


 
It’s the term ‘les banlieues’ that’s being discussed, the latter part of the discussion focusing on the ‘banlieues défavorisées’, in relation to the November 2005 riots in France (see steph’s post#8).
 



> Is the geographic location of these areas the important thing to convey, or is it their socio-economic reality?


 
Well, both really, with the emphasis placed on the second part of your question (as ‘les banlieues’ are always located outside the city limits), to wit: large swathes of urban decay (in the public eye).
 
Slightly off on a tangent, it would be an error to use the blanket term ‘les banlieues’ on its own to qualify indiscriminately the areas where most of the riots took place, it needs to be qualified (with ‘défavorisées’, ‘difficiles’, ‘à problèmes’, etc.). In the majority of cases it would be more correct to speak of ‘les cités’. 
Many of the so-called ‘banlieues’ where the riots took place throughout the country last year, (even in the notorious ‘neuf-trois’) are quite sought after, but obviously not the ‘cités’ parts –tough council estates- within the same ‘banlieues’.


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## RuK

dnldnl said:


> What's the difference between _banlieue_ and _faubourgs_?
> 
> Recently, I saw them used in the same sentence: _Aujourd'hui Paris avec ses faubourgs et sa banlieue est une ville immense_.



I was just reading this thread and marveling at how long it's become! Nobody has answered this one though, and it is a nice question. The faubourgs of Paris - the faubourg St. Antoine, the faubourg St. Denis, which are now very much streets of the city of Paris -- used to be faux-bourgs, outside of town. Now, however, your sentence takes them as synonyms for 'boulevards', wide avenues of the city, while it's also playing off the faubourg/banlieue thing. 

Even in American, the troubles in the banlieues are referred to as "riots in France's underprivileged suburbs". This or other very similar phrase is in every news site...


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## dnldnl

RuK said:


> I was just reading this thread and marveling at how long it's become! Nobody has answered this one though, and it is a nice question. The faubourgs of Paris - the faubourg St. Antoine, the faubourg St. Denis, which are now very much streets of the city of Paris -- used to be faux-bourgs, outside of town. Now, however, your sentence takes them as synonyms for 'boulevards', wide avenues of the city, while it's also playing off the faubourg/banlieue thing.
> 
> Even in American, the troubles in the banlieues are referred to as "riots in France's underprivileged suburbs". This or other very similar phrase is in every news site...



Thank you, RuK. This WordReference dictionary only translated faubourg as suburb. This confused me because it didn't seem to fit the context. But everything is clear now


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## Danielo

And how would you translate "cité"?



> 'Slums' would obviously be too strong a word.



Could you explain why please?

Thanks, Merci


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## Cath.S.

Danielo said:


> And how would you translate "cité"?
> 
> 
> 
> Could you explain why please?
> 
> Thanks, Merci


_Danielo, slums_ signifie_ taudis_.  Je pensent que beaucoup d'habitants de cités seraient très surpris d'apprendre qu'ils vivent dans des taudis.  Certaines cités sont très bien entretenues, dieu merci.


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## zam

egueule said:


> _Danielo, slums_ signifie_ taudis_. Je pensent que beaucoup d'habitants de cités seraient très surpris d'apprendre qu'ils vivent dans des taudis.  Certaines cités sont très bien entretenues, dieu merci.


 
Oui, c'est tout le problème de ce vocabulaire sociologiquement marqué et dont l'aspect et la nature du lieu peuvent avoir considérablement changé au cours des décennies passées. 'Cité' (souvent traduit par 'estates' / 'council estates' dans la presse UK) (ou 'banlieues') peut signifier tout et son contraire et évoquer 'émeutes' chez certains, et relative 'tranquillité' chez d'autres (qui parfois y vivent depuis 60 ans). Sans être luxueuses, pas mal de cités sont chouettes et très vivables, peut-être pas celles dont on entend toujours parler au 20H certes (les fameuses '4000' de La Courneuve, etc.) mais la qualité de vie y varie énormèment selon l'endroit, etc. Ici, dans ce fil, il s'agit des cités à problèmes, mais dans un autre contexte, il pourrait très bien s'agir d'une cité paisible à Paris ou aux portes de Paris, pleine de retraités ni loubards, ni portés sur le vandalisme... Donc, faire très attention au contexte avant de traduire ces termes!


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## Danielo

C'est pour moi une evidence qu'on parlait dans ce fil des banlieues/ cités et quarties dits sensibles.

Evidemment il existe de banlieues chics et même des autres populaires mais bien entretenues et très sympas.

Mon interet est pourtant les possibles traductions de banlieue, cité et quartier sensibles.   

Si vous cherchez banlieue en espagnol WR vous donne: suburbio
http://www.wordreference.com/esfr/suburbio

Si vous transformez suburbio en anglais chez WR, il vous donne la possibilité de slum traduit comme quartier pauvre.

http://www.wordreference.com/es/en/translation.asp?spen=suburbio

Voilà ma question: peut-on dire que le term "slum" peut marcher pour un quartier genre les 4000 cité par Zam?

J'insiste car j'écris en ce moment avec grande difficulté un texte en anglais sur ce sujet (donc ce fil tombe très bien )

Merci


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## Suebethi

sandera said:


> Bonsoir,
> As eveyone has rightly translated..suburbs...I have also heard...outskirts...as being an acceptable translation.
> S.


 
I'd say that "agglomération" would come close to 'outskirts".
Moreover, "suburbs" do have a positive connotation in US English.


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## Danielo

WR English definition: Slum, slum area: _a district of a city marked by poverty and inferior living conditions._

Would it be so far from the definition we are looking for?


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## Aoyama

Pour *banlieues*, dans un sens un peu péjoratif (qui se rattacherait à *zone* , comme dans "la zone", un peu vieilli), il y aurait *hood* (de neighborhood , argot noir américain, mot cher à Spike Lee). *The hood* , mais d'un usage un peu délicat.


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## Danielo

"Vulnerable neighborhood"  
What do you think?


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## pitstop

hi

I believe the best expession would be 'deprived inner-city areas' as this provides an accurate and concise description.

Hope this helps

Pitstop


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## Aoyama

> 'deprived inner-city areas'


a bit long but not bad at all.


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## pitstop

Hi again

I'm not sure I was clear so just to clarify, the term 

'deprived inner-city area(s)' 

is actually a term that is used in English.

Pitstop


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## RuK

Yeah, it's hit a nerve all right.

No way banlieue can mean "inner-city". It would be like calling Manhattan a "rich suburb". They may be poor, but they are not inside the city. Deprived, estates, outskirts, projects, I'm fine with that, but "inner-city areas", no.


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## zam

RuK said:


> No way banlieue can mean "inner-city". It would be like calling Manhattan a "rich suburb". They may be poor, but they are not inside the city. Deprived, estates, outskirts, projects, I'm fine with that, but "inner-city areas", no.


 
I wouldn’t be as categorical as you are on this one. Firstly, it’s important to reiterate that we are talking of ‘les banlieues’ here, not ‘la banlieue’, but I understand why it can be confusing. 

‘Inner city areas’ might not be the best translation but I’ve seen ‘les banlieues’ translated thus many times before, and with good reason as the general message that the translator/journalist would aim to get across primarily in this case is that these are areas of high deprivation, high crime and so on. Whether they’re located strictly within the city limits or not can be seen by your average reader as irrelevant. I’m sure you’re well aware of the sociological and geographical make-up of French cities compared to their UK counterparts, i.e that the toughest areas in the main UK cities are often located within the city limits whereas in French cities the same areas would be found outside the city boundaries, typically 3 or 4 miles or so outside the city centre (as it’s late, I prefer not to address the whys and wherefores of historical town planning issues…).

Take Leeds for instance. Some of its toughest areas are situated very close to the city centre (Hyde Park, Burley, etc.). These are what we call ‘inner city areas’ because they are effectively sited within the city boundaries. But how would you translate that in a newspaper (for your average reader that is), if you had neither the space nor the inclination or knowledge to go into the ins and outs of anglo-french cultural differences? You’d have to opt for ‘les cités’ or ‘les banlieues’ to convey the same meaning. Having said that, I do think ‘deprived suburbs’ is probably the best translation for ‘les banlieues défavorisées’.





*



 From Danielo -Slum: definition we are looking for? 

Click to expand...



*‘slums’ (= shanty towns), I can see why you’re thinking of this term but it translates as ‘taudis’,’bidonvilles’, not ‘banlieues’.

*(OED) • noun *

1 a squalid and overcrowded urban area inhabited by very poor people. 

2 a house or building unfit for human habitation





> From Danielo: C'est pour moi une evidence qu'on parlait dans ce fil des banlieues/ cités et quarties dits sensibles*.*


 

Cette discussion, commencée y’a 10 mois, a pas mal fluctué et dévié (partie du simple ‘banlieues’/‘suburbs’ -posts #1 à 4- je le rappelle). De temps en temps donc, il est bon de recadrer un peu tout ça, tout n’étant pas toujours aussi ‘évident’ immédiatement pour tout le monde (et oui, les rares neurones valides et globalement consentants se font parfois prier à mon âge, et j’suis pas le seul, j’ai les noms, j’ai les noms –enfin, pas sûr, faut encore que je les retrouve)  .



> From Pitstop: I believe the best expession would be 'deprived inner-city areas' as this provides an accurate and concise description.


 
That’s what I offered in my posts #5 + #17, to me it’s on a par with ‘deprived suburbs/areas’, but there’s not much in it really (‘estates’= les cités).


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## RuK

We'll have to agree to differ. To me, just because a place is poor and built-up doesn't mean you can call it "inner city". (Conversely, if a place is wealthy and comfortable that doesn't make it a suburb). 

"Inner city" just is not a state of mind, it's a specific geography. The _isolation _of the deprived cités, cut off from city centers by highways and lack of public transport, are factor number one in their current resentment.


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## Agnès E.

Mmm...
I have a feeling that deprived areas situated in town are called *quartiers sensibles* (_quartier_ is the translation of _neibourhood_) -- or just _quartiers_, as if the word couldn't be used in its usual sense; similar phenomenon applies for _banlieue_, as already said ... whereas suburb deprived areas are called *banlieues*.


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## zam

From Ruk 


> We'll have to agree to differ


 
You don’t agree with what I’ve written in my post#39, fair enough, I’m sure you’ve got your reasons. Trouble is, you have not mentioned what exactly you disagree with in that post. Could you be more explicit please? 
For the benefit of everyone who’s interested in this thread, and for everyone who will look up ‘banlieues’/’inner city areas’/’suburbs’ in the WR forum in the future, it would be of great use if you could pinpoint where you think I’m wrong. 
I would not normally go to the nth degree (or ‘to the far end of a fart’ as we say in jest) to prove my point but I feel that this ‘banlieues’ topic warrants further discussion as it can be confusing (mainly due to fundamental cultural differences and the way city limits work between our respective countries). If we can’t agree, I feel that, at least, we must try not to leave any grey areas.



> To me, just because a place is poor and built-up doesn't mean you can call it "inner city". (Conversely, if a place is wealthy and comfortable that doesn't make it a suburb).


 
This is not what I’ve written or inferred at all. In fact, in my posts#24 and 29, I’ve written pretty much the opposite of what you’re ascribing to me, namely that it would be arrant nonsense to tar all ‘banlieues’, ‘suburbs’ or ‘inner city areas’ with the same brush. 
However complex and sensitive the issue, the fact remains that ‘inner city’ is not a neutral term in the UK. To the vast majority of people the term "inner city" conjures up a host of negative images (rampant crime, poverty, deprivation, drugs, etc.), just like the term 'banlieues' does. 
It might be an unfair stereotype but it remains deeply anchored in the societal psyche. I’ve lived in 4 or 5 inner city areas (some poor, some not) throughout the UK, so I’m well aware of the wide variety of profiles that these areas offer, some indeed are very pleasant places to live in but it will take decades of ‘regeneration’ and urban renewal schemes for them to ditch their negative image.




> "Inner city" just is not a state of mind, it's a specific geography.


 
Well, no it’s not, it’s far more than just a geographical location. Unfortunately, it does have negative connotations in the UK, ask estate agents (or teachers, doctors, nurses, posties or anyone else in direct contact with the public) next time you’re in the UK. 

Below is one of hundreds of definitions available on the Net, this one from Wiki, alongside literally millions of links that, in some way or another, highlight the common problems that blight inner city areas. Of course, this doesn’t mean that outer estates or suburbs do not experience similar problems. It is now well documented in the UK that similar problems are gradually reproducing and affecting older, more established suburban areas.



> (From Wiki)
> Inner City
> An inner city is the central area of a major city. In the United States, Canada and United Kingdom, the term is often applied to the poorer parts of the city centre and is sometimes used as a euphemism with the connotation of being an area, perhaps a ghetto, where people are less educated and wealthy and where there is more crime. These connotations are less common in other Western countries, where deprived areas may be located in outlying parts of cities. In fact, with the gentrification of some formerly run-down central city areas a reverse connotation can apply – in Australia the term "outer suburban" applied to a person implies a lack of sophistication. For instance, in Paris the inner city is the richest part of the metropolitan area, where housing is the most expensive, and where elites and high-income individuals dwell.


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## RuK

As I understand it, Zam, you see "inner-city" as an acceptable translation of "les banlieues". I don't. The primary characteristic of a banlieue is to be in the outer city. The primary characteristic of an inner-city... well, there you go. That both are deprived areas with similar populations and problems is clear; but I can't use "inner-city" to translate "les banlieues", especially when there are a half-dozen other phrases to hand. It would be like using "Cornflakes" to translate "tartine de beurre" (people eat them both at breakfast), or calling Islington a "rich suburb".


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## zam

*From Ruk*


> 1) The primary characteristic of a banlieue is to be in the outer city and the primary characteristic of an inner-city... well, there you go.


 
Their main geographical characteristic, yes undoubtedly, but seeing as 99% of discussions or translations surrounding the term ‘inner city’, such as this one, are not focused on the geography of the place, this locational reasoning is neither here nor there.
We are trying to translate ‘les banlieues’ here, not just any ‘banlieue’. There’s often a marked difference between those terms in people’s mind (see Agnes’s post#4 and 41 for definitions and clarifications). Besides, in some very large cities, such as Marseille or Toulouse, ‘les banlieues’ are situated well within the city limits so the strict geography of it is too lightweight a foundation on which to base your argument.
You keep going back to the geographical location (your posts#38, #40 and #43) which seems to you to be the most important characteristic of an ‘inner city’ area, whereas it’s clear from definitions found on the Net that the ‘geographical’ part only consists of one or two words stating the obvious –viz, that its setting is ‘central’. Some definitions even omit to refer to its central situation when explaining the phrase. There’s obviously far more to an inner city area than that. 
Here’s a good comprehensive set of definitions of ‘inner city’: http://www.answers.com/topic/inner-city

You are effectively implying that we should concern ourselves mainly with geographical factors when dealing with the term ‘inner city’, and therefore that’s your reason for categorically rejecting ‘banlieues’ as a possible translation 
(your posts#38, 40 and 43). 
1) So, what of the cultural, historical, social, sociological, etc. aspects attached to this word? 2) Aren’t they far more important -for the translation- than the location? 3) Don’t they tell you an awful lot more about what sort of place it is? 
(don’t you think the crux of the matter revolves around points 1, 2 and 3?)
The location (‘banlieues’ vs ‘inner city’) is largely irrelevant as it is really the ‘signified’ element that matters here, i.e its mental representation, its real meaning, in short its cultural equivalent in the target language (see Wiki definition post#42 and this Unesco translation below in 2).

It could actually be very misleading for those readers not familiar with the cultural differences being debated here to focus mainly on the geographical location and not much else. As Wiki points out, the centre of your typical French city is very often an affluent area, therefore to define the term ‘inner city’ to a French speaker largely from a geographical standpoint could lead to a major mistranslation or misrepresentation in his/her mind.




> 2) As I understand it, Zam, you see "inner-city" as an acceptable translation of "les banlieues".I can't use "inner-city" to translate "les banlieues"


 
Yes, I do and I’m not the only one to do so either. The comments and translations of Stephanagreg (post#8), Pitstop and Aoyama (posts#35, 36 and 37) concur with my explanations/translation; so does the Unesco (translation below), an institution not renowned in translators/interpreters’ circles for its lack of rigour in matters of translation.
I’ve seen and heard ‘les banlieues’ translated as ‘inner city areas’ (and ‘les banlieues défavorisées’ as ‘deprived inner city areas’) dozens of times, in the press, etc. and from ex-colleagues alike. 
Again, it might not be the best translation (debatable of course) but to assert that ‘no way can it mean banlieues’ (your post#38) is wide of the mark.
It has the advantage of conveying the core meaning and message concisely, clearly and effectively (message of a sociological/societal nature, whatever you want to call it). For the many readers of newspaper X not fully conversant with the subtleties and complexities of anglo-french urbanism, it does the job. 

Unesco article:
*Are the media stories of sexist violence in the banlieues (French equivalent of inner-city areas) and the surveys of vocational and technical education10 ...
portal.unesco.org/education/en/file_download.php/0e3596842209b5921c45de2b71c4acf3Case+study,+France.rtf - 

*


> …especially when there are a half-dozen other phrases to hand.


 
Good translations for these terms are indeed numerous but this doesn’t preclude the inclusion of ‘inner city’ in the list of possibles (and I provided 5 or 6 examples in my post #17). This plethora of possibilities serves to point to the socially-embedded semantic richness of this particular lexical area.



> 3) It would be like using "Cornflakes" to translate "tartine de beurre" (people eat them both at breakfast)


 
At long last, some light-hearted banter in this deadly serious debate! 
Seriously though, neither ‘cornflakes’ nor ‘tartines’ are sociologically loaded, controversial terms burdened by a long history of social unrest and disorder. 
And that’s a great shame, I’d love to meet such an intractable tartine! I wonder what we’d call that ‘banlieue’ speciality, l’Intraitable Tartine des Tarterets? (notorious estate south of Paris). Any other good ideas anyone?

Here is an interesting link for those who might want to probe into the subject while breakfasting http://www.sunderland.ac.uk/~os0tmc/contemp1/banlieue.htm

*Crikey, this has exhausted my mental capabilities for tonight, so I’d like to just declare my position à la Dragon’s den: I’m out!!!*


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## Danielo

Thanks Zam for the extensivo info. and the links provided. really useful!

Saludos,


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## Cath.S.

Autant je pense que l'on_ peut_ traduire _les banlieues_ par _deprived inner-city areas,_ autant je ne traduirais pas _deprived inner-city areas_ par _les banlieues_, mais par _les cités défavorisées_ ou pauvres ou alors à la limite je dirais (pour un lectorat français) _l'équivalent de nos banlieues_.

Ce qui m'inspire soudain cette question : comment les Canadiens francophones nomment-ils ces (ban)lieux ?


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## Gil

Il y a des banlieues riches et des banlieues pauvres.
Pour ce qui est de l'effet trou de beigne ( exode de la population du centre des villes vers les banlieues), ça se complique quand le centre vide s'embourgeoise (_gentrification_), que l'immobilier devient hors de prix et que seuls les riches peuvent vivre dans ces quartiers qui étaient déjà très pauvres. Alors nos banlieues sont-elles habitées par des gens qui n'ont pas les moyens de vivre au centre ou par des riches qui veulent fuir un centre misérable? Les deux, probablement. Je pense aux villes que je connais et d'autres Canadiens pourront avoir des perceptions différentes.


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## zam

> from Egueule
> Autant je pense que l'on_ peut_ traduire _les banlieues_ par _deprived inner-city areas,_ autant je ne traduirais pas _deprived inner-city areas_ par _les banlieues_, mais par _les cités défavorisées_ ou pauvres ou alors à la limite je dirais (pour un lectorat français) _l'équivalent de nos banlieues_.


 
Oui, comme tu le fais il est bon de rappeler que ‘(deprived) inner-city’ est une possible traduction de ‘banlieues’ et que parfois, il est préférable de virer vers la solution ‘équivalence’ plutôt qu’une traduction pure et dure. Ensuite, évidemment, on peut toujours discuter de la meilleure traduction possible, qui pourra varier selon lectorat, contexte, etc. ainsi que de la pertinence ou non d’un adjectif pour qualifier le tout (poor, deprived, underprivileged, etc.). J’ai d’ailleurs constaté en parcourant les autres fils à ce sujet que tu avais proposé ‘inner city junior high school’ pour traduire ‘collège de banlieue’, c’est une possibilité en effet.
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=106524&highlight=banlieues

En ce qui concerne les ‘cités défavorisées’, là encore je suis d’accord. ‘Deprived inner city areas’ convient bien, sauf que peut-être, si on voulait être très pinailleur, on pourrait rétorquer que ‘areas’ est quand même plus vague que ‘cités’ que j’ai souvent vu traduit par ‘estates’. Je le souligne évidemment plus pour ajouter une traduction possible à ce terme de ‘cités’ que pour jouer les ‘Maître Capello’.
C’est le cas dans l’exemple suivant, où le footballeur William Gallas répond à Sarkozy au sujet des ‘cités’: ‘let him go and live on the estates and see what life is like there’(= qu’il y aille lui vivre dans les cités et on en reparlera). 
Cette traduction de ‘cités’ a été faite par la téloche anglaise –c’est vrai qu’on entend souvent des horreurs au niveau traduction télé mais en l’occurence la traduction est bonne. 
Juste pour l’anecdote et en guise de boutade finale, comme disait le célèbre ‘Maître du nourin’, dernière traduction amusante entendue à la télé française y’a quelques jours quand le traducteur, sur un sujet consacré aux paris sur le foot en Angleterre, a traduit ‘I work in a betting shop’ –propos tenus par un vrai ‘geezer’ londonien accent East End - par ‘je travaille dans une boulangerie’. (il avait probablement compris ‘baking shop’).


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## Cath.S.

Zam said:
			
		

> C’est le cas dans l’exemple suivant, où le footballeur William Gallas répond à Sarkozy au sujet des ‘cités’: ‘let him go and live on the estates and see what life is like there’(= qu’il y aille lui vivre dans les cités et on en reparlera).
> Cette traduction de ‘cités’ a été faite par la téloche anglaise –c’est vrai qu’on entend souvent des horreurs au niveau traduction télé mais en l’occurrence la traduction est bonne. Je suis de ton avis.
> 
> Juste pour l’anecdote et en guise de boutade finale, comme disait le célèbre ‘Maître du nourin’, dernière traduction amusante entendue à la télé française y’a quelques jours quand le traducteur, sur un sujet consacré aux paris sur le foot en Angleterre, a traduit ‘I work in a betting shop’ –propos tenus par un vrai ‘geezer’ londonien accent East End - par ‘je travaille dans une boulangerie’. (il avait probablement compris ‘baking shop’).


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## Aoyama

> I have a feeling that deprived areas situated in town are called *quartiers sensibles* (_quartier_ is the translation of _neibourhood_) -- or just _quartiers_, as if the word couldn't be used in its usual sense; similar phenomenon applies for _banlieue_, as already said ... whereas suburb deprived areas are called *banlieues*.


  My feeling would rather be that *deprived* areas would be rendered as quartiers *défavorisés* , *sensibles* meaning here *unsafe* .
  New words have (unfortunately, this being the trend of times) appeared here :
*zone de non-droit, cité* (here, different from it's original meaning, close to the word *la zone *which is a little obsolete now); even the word *banlieue* in the expression *"les banlieues"* (seldom used as a plural until recently) has changed -or shifted- meaning.


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