# Letters likely to be geminated when evolving from Latin into Italian



## Villeggiatura

I'd like to ask whether some intervocalic letters are more/less likely to become geminate when evolving from Latin into Italian.

I know some are very likely because of the abundant examples I'm aware of:
z>zz: amazzone, orizzonte, etc.
m>mm: immagine, vendemmia, etc.
b>bb: fabbrica, pubblico, etc.
t>tt: marittimo, mattutino, etc.
(_x>ss_ involving assimilation, not exactly gemination)

I'm not sure about the following ones due to my very limited knowledge of the examples (examples will be much appreciated)--
c>cc: academia>accademia
c-e/i>cc-e/i: glacies >ghiaccio         
ch-e/i>cch-e/i: parochia>parrocchia
ch>cc: mechanicus>meccanico
d>dd (any example?)
f>ff (any example?)
g-e/i>gg-e/i: regia>reggia
g-a/o/u>gg-/a/o/u (any example?)
l>ll: alacer>allegro
n>nn:  ianuarius>gennaio
p>pp: doplus>doppio
ph>ff: zephyrus>zeffiro
q>cq:  aqua>acqua
r>rr : coruscus >corrusco
s>ss (any example?)
v>vv (any example besides _prov->provv-_?)

Grazie.


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## bearded

Hello
For d>dd I would say  reditus>reddito, contradicere>contraddire
For s>ss maybe asasinus/asesinus>assassino (not sure, as it came from Arabic in the MiddleAges)
Alacer>allegro is a strange etymology, since we also have 'alacre'.
As concerns doppio, pubblico... the pl/bl nexus always becomes pp/bb after a stressed vowel, but then you should also consider ct/pt>tt
as in noctem>notte, ineptus>inetto...


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## Villeggiatura

bearded man said:


> reditus>reddito, contradicere>contraddire .


Great



bearded man said:


> Alacer>allegro is a strange etymology, since we also have 'alacre'


I only got one more example of l>ll: crocodilus>coccodrillo



bearded man said:


> As concerns doppio, pubblico... the pl/bl nexus always becomes pp/bb after a stressed vowel, but then you should also consider ct/pt>tt as in noctem>notte, ineptus>inetto...


I'd like to consider ct/pt>tt, x/ps>ss, and mn>nn, since they're so common. I'm not sure because some say they are assimilation rather than gemination.
Feel free to explore the assimilation/gemination of less common clusters, e.g.
gm>mm: pragmaticus>prammatico
bd>dd:Charybdis>Cariddi
gd>dd:Magdalena>Maddalena


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## Nino83

Villeggiatura said:


> I'd like to consider ct/pt>tt, x/ps>ss, and mn>nn, since they're so common. I'm not sure because some say they are assimilation rather than gemination.
> Feel free to explore the assimilation/gemination of less common clusters, e.g.


b + C observare > osservare, obtenere > ottenere
c + C facto > fatto, fixo > fisso 
d + C adpoggiare > appoggiare, 
g + C frig(i)do > freddo
j + C fuimus > fummo
l + C vol(e)rei > vorrei
m + n autunmo > autunno
n + l pian(u)la > pialla
p + C scriptum > scritto
r + C pensarla > pensalla (antico italiano)
t + C vet(u)lum > vecchio
mb, nd quando > quanno (centro meridionale)
p + j  sapiam > sappia
b + j habeat > abbia


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## francisgranada

Nino83 said:


> ... b + C ...b + j ...


Not only, we have also _ebbe, ebbero, debbo, conobbe, etc ..._ (but _avete, devo, ... _).  Perhaps to the same category belong the already mentioned _pubblico,_ _repubblica,_ _fabbrica _and also e.g_._ _labbro_. I.e. the role of the geminated _bb _seems to be to prevent the normal evolution _b>v_ in the intervocalic positions (and probably also before _l,r_).

However, I don't know if this is a Tuscan feature or the influence of other dialects (see e.g. _subbito _in some regions). Are there dialects in Italy where e.g. in the corresponding word for _labbro "_v" is pronounced and regions where "b" in _libro _is pronounced "bb"?

P.S. In French we have _lèvre _for _labbro_ and even _livre _for _libro. _


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## Sardokan1.0

francisgranada said:


> Are there dialects in Italy where e.g. in the corresponding word for _labbro "_v" is pronounced?



in certain areas of Sardinia the corresponding word for Labbro is "Lavra" : "sa lavra", plural "sas lavras"; where I live we say "sa lara, sas laras"

Sardinian is literally full of Betacisms, almost every word that in Latin began with V in Sardinian begins with B

Vitrum -> Bidru
Videre -> Bìdere
Ventus -> Bentu
Villa -> Bidda
Vacca -> Bacca
Vervecem (ram) -> Berbéche, Berbéghe, Bervéghe, Birvéghe (sheep)

etc.etc.

about the verbs mentioned above :

"Dovere" the corresponding are pronounced "Débere, Dépere, Dévere" according to the various zones : conjugation "debo, débes, débet, debìmus, debìdes, dében"
"Avere" -> Hàere : conjugation "happo, has, hat, hamus, hazis, han" -> imperfect "haìa, haìsti, haìat, haìmis, haìzis, haìan"


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## frugnaglio

francisgranada said:


> Are there dialects in Italy where e.g. in the corresponding word for _labbro "_v" is pronounced and regions where "b" in _libro _is pronounced "bb"?



In Piedmontese “labbro” is làver. And “libbro” is common everywhere b's are normally geminated. But I'm not sure I get what you are aiming at...


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## olaszinho

francisgranada said:


> is pronounced and regions where "b" in _libro _is pronounced "bb"?



For instance, in Romanesco, the dialect spoken in Rome, as in most Central and Southern Italian languages and dialects, /b/ and /dʒ/ are always geminated when they appear after a vowel: e.g. _libbro_ /ˈlibbɾo/ for Standard Italian _libro_ /ˈliːbro/ "book", _aggenda_ for _agenda_ "diary, agenda


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## francisgranada

Hello Sandokan and Frugnaglio.

What I am speaking about is my idea about the instability of the Latin sound "b" in some positions (intervocalic and, at least partially, before liquidae) in Romance. The normal evolution in Italian  (not only) is _b>v _(_lavoro, avere, beve, etc ..._).  But we evidently have some cases where "b" has not developed into "v", however in such cases this "b" is typically reinforced by reduplicating it. It would be interesting to know why these "exceptions" ...

The Sardinian _lavra, dépere/dévere/débere, happo, etc ..._ seem to confirm my idea, with the difference that instead of the geminate _bb_ there is a different solution, namely _b > p/pp_. How is the letter "b" pronounced in case of the conjugation _debo, débes, débet, debìmus, debìdes, dében"_? Or in other words, in the dialects where the infinitive is _dépere_, the conjugation is not _depo, depes, depe[t]... _(or something like this)_? 
_


olaszinho said:


> ... in Romanesco ... as in most Central and Southern Italian languages and dialects, /b/ and /dʒ/ are always geminated when they appear after a vowel ... Standard Italian _libro_ /ˈliːbro/ "book" ...


Szia. That's why I  have written "I don't know if this is a Tuscan feature or the influence of other dialects".

P.S. The word initial _b_ instead of _v_ in Sardian is an other question (in my opinion).


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## Sardokan1.0

francisgranada said:


> Hello Sandokan and Frugnaglio.
> 
> What I am speaking about is my idea about the instability of the Latin sound "b" in some positions (intervocalic and, at least partially, before liquidae) in Romance. The normal evolution in Italian  (not only) is _b>v _(_lavoro, avere, beve, etc ..._).  But we evidently have some cases where "b" has not developed into "v", however in such cases this "b" is typically reinforced by reduplicating it. It would be interesting to know why these "exceptions" ...
> 
> The Sardinian _lavra, dépere/dévere, happo_ seem to confirm this idea, with the difference that instead of the geminate _bb_ there is an other solution, namely (_b > p/pp_. How is the letter "b" pronounced in case of the conjugation _debo, débes, débet, debìmus, debìdes, dében"_? Or in other words, in the dialects where the infinitive is _dépere_, the conjugation is not _depo, depes, depe[t]... _(or something like this)_? _




Exact, the verb "Débere, Dépere, Dévere" is pronounced in this way in the "Logudorese/Nuorese" speaking area (central northern Sardinia), the conjugations change consequently with B,P,V, while in southern Sardinian (Campidanese) the verb is "Déppi" (in origin it was "Déppiri", but with centuries Campidanese has lost the R from Infinitives"), the B,V versions are pronounced single, while the P version is doubled "debo, devo, deppo"


while words like _lavoro, avere, beve, etc ..._ etc.etc. in Sardinian are slightly different

lavoro = tribagliu, trabagliu -> Latin "tripalium"; but exists also a term with the same root : "Laore" (frumento) Latin "Laborem"
avere = hàere (the B has disappeared)
bere = buffare, bìere -> Latin "bibere" (also here the intervocalic B has disappeared)
libro = liberu, libberu


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## Villeggiatura

I forgot _th > tt_: catholicus > cattolico
I don't know whether there is _gh > ggh_


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## pomar

Sardokan1.0 said:


> in certain areas of Sardinia the corresponding word for Labbro is "Lavra" : "sa lavra", plural "sas lavras"; where I live we say "sa lara, sas laras"
> 
> Sardinian is literally full of Betacisms, almost every word that in Latin began with V in Sardinian begins with B
> 
> Vitrum -> Bidru
> Videre -> Bìdere
> Ventus -> Bentu
> Villa -> Bidda
> Vacca -> Bacca
> Vervecem (ram) -> Berbéche, Berbéghe, Bervéghe, Birvéghe (sheep)
> 
> etc.etc.
> 
> about the verbs mentioned above :
> 
> "Dovere" the corresponding are pronounced "Débere, Dépere, Dévere" according to the various zones : conjugation "debo, débes, débet, debìmus, debìdes, dében"
> "Avere" -> Hàere : conjugation "happo, has, hat, hamus, hazis, han" -> imperfect "haìa, haìsti, haìat, haìmis, haìzis, haìan"


I wonder what has Sardinian to do with Italian, quite a different evolution...


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## Sardokan1.0

pomar said:


> I wonder what has Sardinian to do with Italian, quite a different evolution...



Hi, and buona Pasqua!

Different linguistic group, Italian : Italic Romance group; Sardinian : Insular Romance group; it's in the middle between Italic and Iberic

Just answering to Francisgranada about the strange behavior of intervocalic B/V in Romance languages, I can confirm him that intervocalic B/V in Sardinian behave in a strange way, it seems that during the evolution from Latin, almost all intervocalic B/V disappeared

for example :



Spoiler



tabula = taula (tavola)
fabula = faula (bugia)
fabae = fae (fava)
fabulari->fabellare = faeddare (parlare)
levare (sollevare, afferrare) = leare (prendere)
rubus = rúu (rovo)
rivus = riu (fiume)


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## olaszinho

I reckon another forum should be opened for Sardinian, Galician, Ladin, Occitan and other minor Romance languages. I would be really interested in it. As a matter of fact, there are similar forums for other Slavic or Germanic languages and dialects.


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## Nino83

francisgranada said:


> _ebbe, ebbero, debbo, conobbe, etc ..._ (but _avete, devo, ... _). Perhaps to the same category belong the already mentioned _pubblico,_ _repubblica,_ _fabbrica _and also e.g_._ _labbro_.


It seems this happens when the stress is placed before /b/ and expecially in proparoxytones, like _femina > femmina_. 
It happens in all peninsular Italian languages.


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## berndf

bearded man said:


> For d>dd I would say reditus>reddito,


Isn't _reddito_ from Latin _redditum_?


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## Nino83

berndf said:


> Isn't _reddito_ from Latin _redditum_?


It seems there are both words in Latin, with a similar meaning.


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## bearded

'Reditus' from re(d)+ire (come back), 'redditum' from reddere (re+dare = give back). As a compensation for your work, money comes or is given to you - depending on viewpoints.


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## berndf

bearded man said:


> 'redditum' from reddere (re+dare = give back).


Yes, that is the etymology you find in dictionaries, e.g. here. Do you have any reason to assumes a derivation from _reditus_?


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## bearded

In most Latin-Italian dictionaries, under _reditus y_ou find 1. ''ritorno'', 2. ''reddito''. Sorry, unable to insert it as link. But e.g. please google ''dizionario latino reditus Glosbe''.


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## berndf

bearded man said:


> In most Latin-Italian dictionaries, under _reditus y_ou find 1. ''ritorno'', 2. ''reddito''. Sorry, unable to insert it as link. But e.g. please google ''dizionario latino reditus Glosbe''.


If _reddito_ means _reditus_ (what an Italian-Latin dictionary tell you) and if _reddito _is derived from _reditus_ (what Italian etymological dictionaries tell you) are quite different things.


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## bearded

berndf said:


> If _reddito_ means _reditus_ (what an Italian-Latin dictionary tell you) and if _reddito _is derived from _reditus_ (what Italian etymological dictionaries tell you) are quite different things.


Since in Latin _redditum _(already with double d) existed, you are probably right, and that is the origin of 'reddito'. If so, then my note in #2 (reddito as an example of d>dd) was not accurate, and I have to take it back - my bad.


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## berndf

I am not saying you are wrong. I am just asking a question. I have some troubles with the etymology offered by Pianigiani as well. In articular, why hasn't it become *_rendito_ as would have been expected?


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## bearded

berndf said:


> I am not saying you are wrong. I am just asking a question. I have some troubles with the etymology offered by Pianigiani as well. In articular, why hasn't it become *_rendito_ as would have been expected?


Well, we have a feminine word _la rendita _for that matter...  My reluctance to accept 'reddito' from _redditum _comes precisely from the fact that in the derivations from _reddere _we usually have dd>nd in Italian, so an origin  from _reditus _seemed more probable (and the more so, because dictionaries say that _reditus _can mean 'reddito').
  But it may well be that from _redditum _we have a double derivation, as is the case with many other Latin words: _la rendita _(regular dd>nd, in accordance with 'vulgar' speech, and with my ear..) and _il reddito _(higher register, shaped as the  Latin term - probably entered later  through humanistic contribution).
The feminine gender of 'rendita' can be explained as an original neuter plural of _redditum: reddita._
Since I am not a professional etymologist, though, mine are just surmises.


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