# One and nine



## ngoduytung1998

In the film "How Green Was My Valley", after the strike had been settled, the coal miners came back to work. The owner call the men by saying: "One and nine. One and ten."
What does these phrases mean?
Thanks in advance!


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## Franco-filly

Could he be counting them as they come in, i.e. one (hundred) and nine, one (hundred) and ten?
Perhaps you could quote a few sentences prior to this one to help us put it in context.


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## Uncle Jack

If he is calling them in (rather than counting them), then it will be their clock or payroll number. This may well be in the form one hundred and nine, or it could be "1-9", "1-10" and so on, with perhaps the first number being the shift they work on.


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## Linkway

I cannot find the full context, but 'one and nine' meant 'one shilling and nine pence' in predecimal British money and was perhaps referring to the pay being given/offered to the workers.

Coalminers' tally numbers were on metal tokens handed by each miner to the person keeping tally as they entered the pit shaft and were not called out in sequence.  The mine owner would never use the numbers like that given in the quotation.


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## Franco-filly

My first thought was pre-decimal currency but I thought it a bit of a coincidence that the payments ran in one shilling increments.


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## lingobingo

That passage is not to do with pounds, shillings and pence. Some context can be found here: "How Green Was My Valley" Subtitles (just search “one and” to find the right bit). But it doesn’t much help.


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## PaulQ

lingobingo said:


> That passage is not to do with pounds, shillings and pence.


I'm sure it must.





> Some context can be found here: "How Green Was My Valley" Subtitles (just search “one and” to find the right bit).


This should be read:
*Narrator:*_ The men were happy_ _going up the hill that morning._ 
*Miner 1*- _One and nine. _
*Miner 2 *- _One and ten. _
*Narrator:* _But not all of them, for there were too many now for the jobs open._

The miners' conversation is a cut showing the miners comparing the money they have received.

See #10


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## Franco-filly

lingobingo said:


> Some context can be found here: "How Green Was My Valley" Subtitles (just search “one and” to find the right bit). But it doesn’t much help.


Hmmm and it doesn't seem to be the boss who's calling those words but rather the miners themselves.
cross-posted


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## ngoduytung1998

I don't think there is any further context. This comes after the words of the narrator telling that the strike had been settled and the men came back to work, but not all of them.
Maybe it's not the mine owner who is calling them. But I'm sure there's someone who is tallying the miners, one by one, by calling those numbers.
After "One and nine" and "One and ten", there is no one allowed to come in to work as the gate is being closed.


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## ngoduytung1998

PaulQ said:


> The boss handing money to the miners is a cut showing the miners queuing and receiving money.


Yes, that is a scene in the beginning of the film. Not this one.


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## lingobingo

Why would they be counting their money on the way to [possible] work?

The men were happy going up the hill that morning. _[The colliery gates are closed by guards, leaving some of the men on the outside and shut out.]_

(How Green Was My Valley (film) - Wikiquote)


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## lingobingo

That doesn’t add up, as far as I can see. It seems to be the first day back after the strike, with some of the jobs gone. No one will have been paid for the duration of the strike.


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## Franco-filly

Where does it say the gates are closed? Surely this suggests that the mine has been re-opened:
_*
Then the strike was settled*,_ _with the help of Mr Gruffydd and my father.
*Work again*, work to wipe out_ _the memory of idleness and hardship.
The men were happy_ _going up the hill that morning._


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## lingobingo

Franco-filly said:


> Where does it say the gates are closed?


See the link in #13.


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## PaulQ

Hmmm... I think we are agreed that "one and nine" followed by "one and ten", in a setting of 1939/41 Wales, will refer to money = "1/9d" "1/10d". The context maybe somewhat obscure. But the OP can see it, and I think we've answered the question. My wife has her father's miners' tag - there is no "and" in it, and there would be no reason for one miner to give another miner his tag number.

I have just looked at the film1 - I was quite wrong. It is not the owner who is saying this: it is one of his employees. (It is not even clear where the owner is, or if he is there - it would be unlikely that he was.)

The scene is of miners around the colliery gates in the hopes of being taken on for work for one shift. Someone is calling out  "one and eight... one and nine... one and ten..." as one man at a time is allowed in. The gates close.

It seems that the person speaking is counting off the number of miners who have been allowed in to work the shift: it is a shortened version of
*"One more man and that makes eight men; one more man and that makes nine men; one more man and that makes ten men."*

1on a popular website - the scene is very short and is at about 43:30 onwards.


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## ngoduytung1998

Linkway said:


> Coalminers' tally numbers were on metal tokens handed by each miner to the person keeping tally as they entered the pit shaft and were not called out in sequence.


I agree with @Linkway in this point. Maybe it is the person keeping tally that is calling them by their tally numbers, to announce the miners who are allowed to come back to work.
I'm sure that it's not the miners calling the others.


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## ngoduytung1998

And thank you all for your help!


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## lingobingo

ngoduytung1998 said:


> I agree with @Linkway in this point. Maybe it is the person keeping tally that is calling them by their tally numbers, to announce the miners who are allowed to come back to work.


I think you’re right but Linkway was saying the opposite – that if it was tally numbers, they wouldn’t be in sequence: 1&9, 1&10, 1&11 …


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## ngoduytung1998

Maybe they are just accidentally in sequence. Or maybe because this is not a normal workday, but rather a day to announce the men who are kept at work, so the tally numbers were called out in sequence.


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## lingobingo

Maybe they even get new tally numbers when the mine is reopened, since the system has changed (fewer miners employed, lower pay)? But I have no idea really. I’m just pretty sure it’s not a reference to money.


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## ngoduytung1998

Actually I'm doing a translation of this film. So maybe I will just literally translate them instead of finding the real meaning of them.


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## lingobingo

Sounds like a plan!


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## Uncle Jack

"One and nine, one and ten" is so obviously money that you would need a good context not to think that, which I thought the OP had given. However when we learn the exact same words were used elsewhere in the film where they do refer to money, then surely this quote does as well, even though the reason why someone is saying these sums of money may be unclear.

However, going only from the posts here (it is decades since I read the book and I don't recall ever watching the film), surely it is:

There was an earlier incident when the miners were paid: "one and nine", "one and ten"
Following the mine re-opening after closure, during which of course the miners were not paid, those who were returning to work were imagining being paid at the end of the week, and there was a flashback to the earlier scene of them getting paid.


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## PaulQ

Uncle Jack said:


> "One and nine, one and ten" is so obviously money


That was my conviction too - but it is not money - see #16.


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## PaulQ

ngoduytung1998 said:


> maybe I will just literally translate them instead of finding the real meaning of them.


Also see #16.


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## lingobingo

Uncle Jack said:


> There was an earlier incident when the miners were paid: "one and nine", "one and ten"
> Following the mine re-opening after closure, during which of course the miners were not paid, those who were returning to work were imagining being paid at the end of the week, and there was a flashback to the earlier scene of them getting paid.


That would clinch it, if there were such a flashback. But was there? Or is that just a guess?

In the only previous reference to payment that I could find, the amounts are in pounds and shillings, not a single shilling and a few pence!

- Gwilym Morgan, three pounds seven. - Thank you, sir. 
Lanto Morgan, three pounds seven. 
Ivor Morgan, three pounds seven. 
Davy Morgan, two pounds five. 
Owen Morgan, two pounds five. 
Young Gwilym Morgan, one pound ten.


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## ngoduytung1998

@lingobingo That's right. I have the film at hand. The payment is exactly as you found and there is no flashback at all.


PaulQ said:


> Also see #16.


Oh, that makes good sense now. However, it seems pretty few compared to the number of men shown in the scene.


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## lingobingo

I’ve only just seen Paul’s edit of #16. Excellent. Now that does clinch it.


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## PaulQ

ngoduytung1998 said:


> However, it seems pretty few compared to the number of men shown in the scene.


Yes - It seems to show the system called "casual labour": If you were a miner, every morning you would go to the colliery to see if they wanted to employ you. It depended on what work was needed to be done. (I'm not sure how historically accurate it is - I don't think that casual labour existed in the mines... but, as you see, I have been wrong before.).


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## ngoduytung1998

PaulQ said:


> Yes - It seems to show the system called "casual labour": If you were a miner, every morning you would go to the colliery to see if they wanted to employ you. It depended on what work was needed to be done. (I'm not sure how historically accurate it is - I don't think that casual labour existed in the mines... but, as you see, I have been wrong before.).


I mean that seems to be fewer than the number of the men allowed to enter the mine. As you see in the scene, there are probably hundreds of men inside the gate. But the counting is stopped at ten.


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## PaulQ

ngoduytung1998 said:


> I mean that seems to be fewer than the number of the men allowed to enter the mine.


The scene is short and starts at a point _after_ the first seven or eight men have already been admitted...


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## ngoduytung1998

PaulQ said:


> The scene is short and starts at a point _after_ the first seven or eight men have already been admitted...


Yes, you are right.
Thank you so much!


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## Packard

My problem with all of this is I cannot locate the quote in the text.  

Here is the text:  Full text of "How Green Was My Valley"

"control + F" should find any of the references and I cannot locate "one and ..."


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## lingobingo

This thread is about the film, not the book.


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## Trochfa

I seem to remember a BBC programme called The Coal House where families lived the lives of miners families for a month. I'm sure the men and older boys had to go up the hill several miles every day to the colliery where they met the Foreman who would either hire them or not.

Having seen the clip I think I _may_ have the answer. The Foreman is definitely counting the number of workers he's letting in. However, when the camera pans around to those within the mine once the gates are closed on those not being employed that day, we are shown a large number of miners (far more than ten) inside the gate.

I think the "one and eight", "one and nine" and "one and ten" heard just before the gates close relates to *a contraction of "one [hundred] and eight", "one [hundred] and nine" and "one [hundred] and ten".* People sometimes do this when counting so that they don't have to say the whole thing repeatedly.

If you think about it it would be a tiny mine in those days, even in the Great Depression, if it only employed ten people.


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## lingobingo

Trochfa said:


> think the "one and eight", "one and nine" and "one and ten" heard just before the gates close relates to *a contraction of "one [hundred] and eight", "one [hundred] and nine" and "one [hundred] and ten".* People often do this when counting so that they don't have to say the whole thing repeatedly.


Not for the first time, this goes right back to the very first answer in this thread (see #2).  

It is indeed plausible, if people do count hundreds in that abbreviated way. But I’ve never come across that before.


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## Trochfa

lingobingo said:


> Not for the first time, this goes right back to the very first answer in this thread (see #2).


 

This thread's gone on so long I forgot that Franco-Filly suggested it right at the start. 

I've definitely heard people count that way out loud when counting into the hundreds, especially when they are keeping a check on a total with someone else nearby to witness it. But of course, how often do people have to do that!


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## Packard

lingobingo said:


> This thread is about the film, not the book.


Ah.  It never mentioned that in the original post.


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## ngoduytung1998

Oh, I'm sorry for that. I have edited the first post. This thread is about the film.


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## Franco-filly

Packard said:


> My problem with all of this is I cannot locate the quote in the text.





ngoduytung1998 said:


> This thread is about the film.


 and Lingo gave the link in #6


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## Linkway

I agree the OP quotation was some form of counting the number of miners allowed into the workplace on that day.

It's important to recognize that as quite different from the miners' tally tokens which indicated each individual miner's unique identification number and were used mainly for mine safety control - to check that every miner who went down the pit shaft came up again.


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## Packard

If I were to guess, then I would revert to the old nursery rhyme (sing a Song of Sixpence), but while "one and nine" (19) might work, "one and ten" (20) would not work so well. I would just expect "twenty".



_Sing a song of sixpence, 
A pocket full of rye, 
*Four and twenty* blackbirds 
Baked in a pie. _


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## Uncle Jack

If you follow "Sing a Song of Sixpence" then "one and nine" is "ten". This form is common in some other languages (ask a Welsh speaker about 79), but in English I have only really come across it with "four and twenty" (two dozen) and "five and twenty" (when telling the time). Of course we do have "threescore years and ten", but here the units are in their expected sequence.


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## Trochfa

This is what we see after the gate is closed and the camera shows who has been let inside the compound at the top of the mine.


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## ngoduytung1998

Trochfa said:


> This is what we see after the gate is closed and the camera shows who has been let inside the compound at the top of the mine.


I have noticed it.


ngoduytung1998 said:


> I mean that seems to be fewer than the number of the men allowed to enter the mine. As you see in the scene, there are probably hundreds of men inside the gate. But the counting is stopped at ten.


@PaulQ I realize that I had misunderstood your answer. I mean exactly like what @Trochfa have shown.


PaulQ said:


> The scene is short and starts at a point _after_ the first seven or eight men have already been admitted...


Now I think that if it is like PaulQ's idea, maybe the miners come in every small group.
But perhaps the idea of one [hundred] and nine, one [hundred] and ten is better.


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