# possessive



## Ajace

Sziasztok!

I did not understand when it's correct to use the "-j" in the possessive suffix of plural objects.

Can you help me, please?
Thank you!!!


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## Csaba

I think it's always "-i" is it not? It is a little difficult for me to think in terms of analytical rules since I am a native speaker but I can't think of any situations that you describe. "-j" is always for a single object.
kecske (goat)
kecskéje/kecskéjük (his/her goat, their goat)
kecskéi/kecskéik (his/her goats, their goats)
macska (cat)
macskája/macskájuk
macskái/macskáik

That said, it could be that you are right that sometimes it's correct but it should be some weird exception.


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## Ajace

Thank you for reply, Csaba!



> It is a little difficult for me to think in terms of analytical rules since I am a native speaker


Yes, I understand....
It's the same for me in italian!




> I can't think of any situations that you describe. "-j" is always for a single object.


Oh... I think some words like "_kalap" (e.g.)
_
For multiple objects isn't it so?

_kalapjaim
__kalapjaid
__kalapjai
__kalapjaink
__kalapjaitok
__kalapjaik
_
Am I in error?


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## Csaba

Some people do use "-j" in the way you described but it's incorrect, for example googling "autójaik" (incorrect form of "their cars") returns 156 results compared to 13800 of "autóik".

edit:
Aha. Yes you're right. Apparently it's a little more complicated... Kalapjaim is indeed correct. Perhaps it's a question of which consonant the word ends with since

házaim is correct and not házjaim (house)
asztalaim is correct and not asztaljaim (table)

kalapjaim is correct, as is
papjaim (my priests)
or
csapjaim (my faucets)

but talpaim (my soles {you would actually use the singular normally})

Sorry I can't help you much! But normally it's definitely no '-j'.


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## Ajace

Csaba said:


> Sorry I can't help you much! But normally it's definitely no '-j'.


Ah, ok...

Nagyon köszönöm... Nagy kedves volt!


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## Csaba

Szívesen segítek 

De igazad volt, néha tényleg kell a "-j"...

(I help you gladly  But you were right, sometimes you need the "-j"...)


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## Csaba

The rule seems to be that whenever a noun ends with a consonant _and the singular possessive needs a "-j"_, the plural possessive will (almost always) need a -j.

darabja darabjai (piece)
alapja alapjai (base)
csatja csatjai (clasp)
but
barátja barátai (friend)


This is a nice rule but it needs you to know which nouns ending in consonants need -j for the possessive.


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## CapnPrep

Yes, the book I have here only mentions two exceptions: _barát_ and _szomszéd_.





Csaba said:


> This is a nice rule but it needs you to know which nouns ending in consonants need -j for the possessive.


I guess this information must be indicated in the dictionary? Because there doesn't seem to be any truly reliable way to predict it. This book only says that "a large number of nouns ending in the consonants _-b_, _-d_, _-g_, _-k_, _-l_, _-m_, _-n_, _-p_, _-r_, _-t_ take the endings with _j_." And a few nouns can apparently take either: _virág_, _kamat_, _naptár_.


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## Ajace

CapnPrep said:


> mentions two exceptions: _barát_ and _szomszéd_.



I know that _barát_ (and other words) is really irregular.
It takes J only in 3th person singular and plural (with multiple objects)
Then, it is:

   barátaim (my friends)

   barátaid (your friends)
   barát*j*ai (his, her friends)

  barátaink (our friends)

   barátaitok (your friends)

  barát*j*aik (their friends)


However, it seems don't be a regular rule for J-use.
There is the same problem in the conjugation of past tense and the use of "double T"


Hungarian is not easy language!



Thank you too, Cap!


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## Csaba

I would never say barátjai or barátjaik, it sounds very wrong to me.


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## Ajace

Csaba said:


> I would never say barátjai or barátjaik, it sounds very wrong to me.


Oh... Certainly you're right!

In wikipedia there is:
_"An exception is the uncommon type of __barát ("friend") where the __-j type is incorrect with a plural noun: __barátja ("his/her friend"), __barátjuk ("their friend") but __barátaik ("their friends"), without __j._"


But my reference to learn your language is this:
http://www.hungarianreference.com
where there is the example that I written before...

Sorry my mistake!
:S

Fortunately you corrected me!


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## Zsanna

Unfortunately, it is not possible to give a clear cut rule. 
I would say that even what sounds right or wrong to individual native speakers may vary. 
E.g. _barátjai_ does not sound that bad to me - it certainly sounds better than _padai_ that this wiki page claims to be good.

I looked at your link, Ajace. It is not very detailed but it may not be a problem if you are rather at the beginning of your Hungarian studies. 
You may have read even here on the forum that there are quite a lot of irregularities in Hungarian (that make language learning a bit complicated) but please keep these in mind:
- nobody expects you to speak perfectly 
- speaking "perfectly" (in any case and somehow) does not depend on these sort of things
- you can consider these problems in a way that after a time they'll sort themselves out if you keep your eyes and ears open so
- you should not get worried about them especially at this stage

Conclusion: once you heard about the general idea, attack the problem one by one, as it comes.


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## Zsanna

CapnPrep said:


> ... I guess this information must be indicated in the dictionary?


 
What dictionary...? 
Unfortunately, I don't think you'll find (easily or at all) a one language dictionary that does it. Two language dictionaries: maybe and language books: most certainly. 
So you need to collect information a little bit from everywhere. It has the advantage that it'll keep you awake and open for different opinions, possibilities, which will help understanding Hungarian mentality!


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## Csaba

I agree with Zsanna, this is one of the areas where there are many 'mistakes' made by native speakers, or better said, different opinions (I would not say 'padai' but it does not sound incorrect to me  ). You will not look inauthentic if you get a few of them wrong and anyway Hungarians are very easily impressed by non-natives trying to learn the language.


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## Ajace

> Unfortunately, it is not possible to give a clear cut rule.
> I would say that even what sounds right or wrong to individual native speakers may vary.


Yes, you're right!
I think it's so everywhere...
In Italy there are large differences between Northern and Southern Italy especially in the pronunciation, but we can understand ourselves!
))



> (...) please keep these in mind:
> - nobody expects you to speak perfectly
> - speaking "perfectly" (in any case and somehow) does not depend on these sort of things
> - you can consider these problems in a way that after a time they'll sort themselves out if you keep your eyes and ears open so
> - you should not get worried about them especially at this stage
> 
> Conclusion: once you heard about the general idea, attack the problem one by one, as it comes.


Your reply is very wise, Zsanna.


I myself don't expect to speak perferctly your language.
Me and my wife went in Hungary two times, and the second time we had less difficulty to understand 'cause our self-study.
[Indeed it is not necessary to know hungarian, because english is widely used in Hungary (more than in Italy), but our love for Hungary and its wonderful people encourages us to learn this fascinating language.]

We have many difficulties to learn, but we can do it... a little bit for time... step by step...

Thank you for your words... They will help us to continue chase our difficult goal!



> anyway Hungarians are very easily impressed by non-natives trying to learn the language.


We saw it, Csaba!
Our hungarian friends amazed because our purpose (and someone said "don't do this!" )
It's difficult for us, but not impossible 
^_^
Thanks again!


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## Norfren

Barátai - szomszédai. To make things more complicate, there is some uncertainity with these words, though. I live in East Hungary and in the spoken language often heard "szomszéggyai, baráttyai". These forms obviously come from "barátjai, szomszédjai" + consonant assimilation.


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## Zsanna

I come from the south but - to be honest - I didn't see anything "striking" about "barát(j)ai/szomszéd(j)ai" originally. I've even found this form mentioned in a university textbook (A mai magyar nyelv edited by Rácz Endre, from 1971): "csak néhány szóban van ingadozás (szomszéd-ai ~ szomszéd-jai stb.)". 
In any case, I'd think this is one of the most complicated area in Hungarian where some grammatical rules mix with an awful lot of special cases, exceptions, personal preferences and even fashion! 
(I've read on the above mentioned wikipedia page that apparently nowadays the tendency is to use the "j" forms even when they weren't earlier (in other words: preferring the longer form) - meanwhile the reason for dropping them in the case of words ending with vowels - in the plural, like _kutyái_ - is to make them shorter! This is how two opposite tendencies can work at the same time within the same topic. 
You don't have to say more to illustrate how complicated the topic is!)


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## Zsanna

Ajace said:


> ...
> I myself don't expect to speak perferctly your language.


This is a wise approach, as well!  
(And later on, if you felt like it you could always change your mind...)
But really the point is not to "suffer" more with a particular grammatical point than it is absolutely necessary.



Ajace said:


> ... we had less difficulty to understand 'cause our self-study.


Complimenti!  It means that you have managed to progress in the meantime. 
(And besides, it is very pleasant to hear about your enthusiasm for our country... especially knowing how high quality cultural, historical and even geographical features you have in Italy!)




Ajace said:


> We have many difficulties to learn, but we can do it... a little bit for time... step by step...


Well, don't hesitate to come back with your questions! We are glad to help if we can. 
Nel frattempo, buon proseguimento!


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## Zsanna

I've just realised that we haven't really proposed at least a short version of those rules and tendencies about the use of "ja/je" in the Singular 

1. It a*ppears* in words ending in 
a) a vowel (_kutya_-_kutyája_) 
b) ch (_pech_-je) 
c) f (_gróf_-ja) 
d) and in words of foreign origin (_program_-ja, _film_-je, _csekk_-je) 
e) (often yes than not) in words ending in 2 consonants (_park_-ja, _bank_-ja) or b and d (_bab_-ja, _híd_-ja)
*f) for no other reason than modern tendency* (even if it sounds unpleasant and a lot of people around 50 and above) like in _szócikkje_, _állatja_, _dalja_ (see wikipedia link given above)

2. It d*oesn't appear* in words ending in
a) sibilants: c, cs, dzs, sz, z, zs (_papucs_-a, _ász_-a, _kéz_-_keze_, etc.) 
b) j, ly, gy, ny, ty (_baj_–a, _rejtély_–e, _kegy_–e, _lány_–a, etc.) 
c) h (_méh_-e) 
d) g, k, l, m, r, v (_ág_-a, _fék_-e, _szál_-a, _szem_-e, _bor_-a, _év_-e) more often not than yes

3.* It may* *or may not* appear 
– depending on true variations (_szappan_-a or _szappan_-ja) –> both correct
– with a 50/50 chance in words ending in n, p and t (_sín_-e or _sín_–je but just _kép_-e)

In the Plural it is mostly the same but when not, it is because “ja/je” disappears:
1. in words originally ending in vowels (we prefer shortening words traditionally) like: _cipő_-je (Sing.) but _cipő__je__i_ ->_cipői_ (Pl.) 

*Except* in words ending in „i” like _kocs*i*_-ja and _kocs*i*_-jai (no difference to the Sing.)

2. in other cases like _barátaim_ and _szomszédaim_ (I have doubts about how „official” this form has become but there may well be others)

3. both can be used e.g. _kabátjai_ or _kabátai_ (again may depend on individual tastes but this time at least both are „officially” correct)
*******************************************************************

N.B. In the case of homonyms the 2 (*a/e* and *ja/je*) forms are used obligatorily the same way for the same meaning so they really need special attention. 
E.g.:
*kar *
1. meaning _choir_ or _faculty_ is always kara/karai
2. meaning _upper limb_, is always karja/karjai

*ár*
1. meaning _price_ is always ára/árai
2. meaning _tide_ is always árja/árjai
etc.


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## Csaba

Zsanna, out of idle interest, which forms are correct for the other two senses of ár (véső, acre)?

I would clearly say árjai for acres but I am undecided about véső-s because I never really use that sense...


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## Zsanna

Good question, Csaba! 
But, luckily, there is help in the Helyesírási kéziszótár*: they are both (szerszám + területmérték)-> árja. 
*I couldn't find it on the net. The description of the rules can be found there easily but the actual list (which helps in such a situation) not.


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## Ajace

Zsanna said:


> Complimenti!  It means that you have managed to progress in the meantime.


Thank you!
I don't mean that I understand magyar...
^^
Simply, in January the "sound" of the language was less stanger and a bit more "natural"...
Furthermore, we are able to read indications and simple phrases...
[The first time, this seemed impossible ^_^)



> (And besides, it is very pleasant to hear about your enthusiasm for our country... especially knowing how high quality cultural, historical and even geographical features you have in Italy!)


Oh... Now I risk to go O.T. and to write too many pages about this!


Your culture and history has equal dignity of ours.
Rather... more than it!

I just say this:
- I sometimes see "_István a király_" (I have two copy of this opera) and I still get emotional in some moments.
- I read hungarian poems *(*)* (Én Endre Adyt szeretem!!!!) and they can make me cry!
- Your "Himnusz" and your "Nemzeti dal" contain concepts so intimate and "deep" that represent very well the "noblesse" of your People....

Now I stop here, but it's only the surface of my opinion.


--------------

Thanks for summary about "possessive".
I printed it!


Edit:
*(*) *Naturally, in italian!


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## galaxy man

Zsanna said:


> *f) for no other reason than modern tendency*



   Yes. For instance, the ten nouns that can be formed as "consonant + ár":

*bár* (bar), *gyár* (factory), *kár* (loss), *nyár* (summer), *pár* (pair), *sár* (mud), *szár* (stem), *tár* (magazine), *vár* (fortress), *zár* (lock);

They seem to fall into these categories:
  1 -- bárja, párja, tárja, zárja;
  2 -- gyára, kára, szára, vára;
    3 -- sara, nyara.

One can think that little else is at  work here than happenstance


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## Zsanna

Oh, don't worry, galaxy man, there are also linguistic explanations for the examples you mention! Only there is not much point in detailing them now. (Unless we really want to discourage people who read this.)

The point f) referred to other cases.


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