# Macedonian: The handsome lad has come



## cr00mz

Hey WRF, i have another question for you.

I can't remember where i saw this sentence, but it stuck with me. Translated it was _Ličnoto momče *došlo*_. I got curious about the bold-ed word.

is it possible to say _dojdel_?


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## Arath

Firstly, _dojdel_ is masculine and _momče _is neuter, so you would have to change it to _dojdelo_.

Secondly, I don't think that this sentence translates exactly to "The handsome lad has come". I think a better translation would be _"The handsome lad came"_, and it's in the renarrative mood, perhaps because it's in a fairy tale or because someone else told you about it.

If you want to say "_The handsome lad has come_", then it is "_Ličnoto momče *e dojdeno*"

_In this sentence you can't use _dojdelo_ because it would be ungrammatical, if we change the meaning we could be able to use it:

_Ličnoto momče *ke dojdelo*_ - _The handsome lad was going to come _(again in the ranarrative mood)

or

_Ako ličnoto momče *dojdelo*_ - _If the handsome lad came._


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## cr00mz

If you want to say "_The handsome lad has come_", then it is "_Ličnoto momče *e dojdeno*"

if you have the verb form *dojdeno* shouldn't it be *ima* dojdeno?_


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## Arath

cr00mz said:


> If you want to say "_The handsome lad has come_", then it is "_Ličnoto momče *e dojdeno*"
> 
> if you have the verb form *dojdeno* shouldn't it be *ima* dojdeno?_


_
*
dojdam* is an intransitive verbs. The situation is similar to other languages. like French for example. One says:

Je *suis *venue(e).

not

J'ai venu(e).

Because *venir* is an intransitive verb. The ima-construction is used with transitive verbs and then, the participle is invariable, it's always neuter.

Mažot go ima pročitano vestnikot.
Ženata go ima pročitano vestnikot.

In the sum-construction, the participle agrees with the subject:

Mažot e dojden.
Ženata e dojdena.
Deteto e dojdeno.
Ženite se dojdeni._


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## iobyo

cr00mz said:
			
		

> if you have the verb form *dojdeno* shouldn't it be *ima* dojdeno?



That's also possible.

The _има_-constructions emphasize the outcome or result of the action. Simply said, _момчето има дојдено _means he had come at least once before but it not present at the moment and may even give the impression that he is unlikely to come again. In any case, the basic way to say it would be _момчето дојде _with the aorist. It is semantically neutral as opposed to _е дојдено_ or anything else.


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## cr00mz

ok, but about the word *došlo*, what kind of form is it. It comes from the word dojde right?

Has it to do with perfective/imperfective?


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## Bog Svarog

Ehm....isn't *došlo* a Serbianism?


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## Orlin

Не е задължително да е сърбизъм, защото и на български казваме *дошло*.


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## iobyo

cr00mz said:
			
		

> ok, but about the word *došlo*, what kind of form is it. It comes from the word dojde right?



Correct. It is the verbal _л_-form of _дојде_.



			
				cr00mz said:
			
		

> Has it to do with perfective/imperfective?



It's an oversimplification to say so, but all verbs have both perfective and imperfective aspects. To use your example, _дојде_ is perfective and _доаѓа _is its imperfective 'partner'.



Bog Svarog said:


> Ehm....isn't *došlo* a Serbianism?



No, it isn't.



Orlin said:


> Не е задължително да е сърбизъм, защото и на български казваме *дошло*.



А и не мора да значи дека не е поради тоа што го има и во бугарскиот.


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## Orlin

iobyo said:


> А и не мора да значи дека не е поради тоа што го има и во бугарскиот.


Разбира се, iobyo, това нито доказва, нито отхвърля предположението.


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## Bog Svarog

I stand corrected. We could say something like "pošlo no ne došlo", which is not a Serbianism. There is an old Macedonian song (Snošti te prativ na voda kerko) with this line, so I'm definately dropping the Serbianism thing.

Иначе мене не ми е 100% јасно кога мора да се користи дошло.
Ми се чини дека се користи за пројдено време, за кое си сигурен дека се случи и веќе не се случува. Или нема врска?


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## cr00mz

iobyo said:


> Correct. It is the verbal _л_-form of _дојде_.



if that is the L-form, then what form is *dojdel*?


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## iobyo

cr00mz said:


> if that is the L-form, then what form is *dojdel*?



Verbs from the _е_-group and _и_-group have two _л_-forms each. _Дојде_ therefor has _дошол_ and _дојдел_. The latter is an imperfective verb derived from perfective verb, so it must also take a conjunction (ex. _ќе дојдел_).



Bog Svarog said:


> Иначе Инаку мене не ми е 100% јасно кога мора да се користи дошло.
> Ми се чини дека се користи за пројдено време, за кое си сигурен дека се случи и веќе не се случува. Или нема врска?



Со глаголската _л_-форма се градат повеќе сложени глаголски форми: можен (на пр. „би дошол“), идно прекажано и предминато.


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## DarkChild

iobyo said:


> А и не мора да значи дека не е поради тоа што го има и во бугарскиот.



Е, няма как сърбизъм да има в източните говори, които са основа на стандартния български.


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## cr00mz

iobyo said:


> Verbs from the _е_-group and _и_-group have two _л_-forms each.



Within I and E group, there are several subgroups. Do they all have 2 different L forms?


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## aleksk

cr00mz said:


> ok, but about the word *došlo*, what kind of form is it. It comes from the word dojde right?
> 
> Has it to do with perfective/imperfective?


 
I don't know if this add to the discussion - I don't know much about the Macedonian grammar, but as a native speaker, I can tell you there is a very significant difference between _момчето дојде _(meaning the boy came AND I witnessed the boy coming, I was there during the act) and _момчето дошло _(the boy came BUT I did not witness the boy coming, the fact was reported to me by someone else). I think this is called witness and non-witness 'attitude' (or mood) by grammarians (i.e. observed by the speaker and non-observed by the speaker action).. Don't take my word for it, though. However, it is an extremely important distinction that all verbs in Macedonian (and I think Bulgarian, not sure) have. They are not interchangeable in conversatons or writing - if I say the first thing to you I mean one thing, if I say the second I mean another. The distinction is always very clear and precise in Macedonian. 

I hope this helps you see the difference in meaning.


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## Bog Svarog

aleksk said:


> I don't know if this add to the discussion - I don't know much about the Macedonian grammar, but as a native speaker, I can tell you there is a very significant difference between _момчето дојде _(meaning the boy came AND I witnessed the boy coming, I was there during the act) and _момчето дошло _(the boy came BUT I did not witness the boy coming, the fact was reported to me by someone else). I think this is called witness and non-witness 'attitude' (or mood) by grammarians (i.e. observed by the speaker and non-observed by the speaker action).. Don't take my word for it, though. However, it is an extremely important distinction that all verbs in Macedonian (and I think Bulgarian, not sure) have. They are not interchangeable in conversatons or writing - if I say the first thing to you I mean one thing, if I say the second I mean another. The distinction is always very clear and precise in Macedonian.
> 
> I hope this helps you see the difference in meaning.


Then the question remains what the difference between "дошло" and "дојдело" is.

Иначе од кога почнав да мислам за темава, почнав и да слушам дали мајка ми ги користи формиве, и дали ја ги користам исто така.
Доста се зачудив дека двајцата ги користиме, кога мислев дека не беше така, само што не внимавав.
А најсмешното е дека уште не можам да откријам точно што е разликата меѓу дошло и дојдело...
Momčeto dojdelo - supposedly the boy came
Momčeto došlo - supposedly the boy came
???


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## Arath

Bog Svarog said:


> Then the question remains what the difference between "дошло" and "дојдело" is.
> 
> Иначе од кога почнав да мислам за темава, почнав и да слушам дали мајка ми ги користи формиве, и дали ја ги користам исто така.
> Доста се зачудив дека двајцата ги користиме, кога мислев дека не беше така, само што не внимавав.
> А најсмешното е дека уште не можам да откријам точно што е разликата меѓу дошло и дојдело...
> Momčeto dojdelo - supposedly the boy came
> Momčeto došlo - supposedly the boy came
> ???


I can speak for Bulgarian. The difference betwen "*дошъл*" and "*дойдел*" is pretty much the same as the difference between "*дойдох*" and "*дойдех*" (the aorist and imperfect tense forms) so in Macedonian we have

*Momčeto dojdeše
Momčeto dojde*

Again, I don't think that the first sentence is grammatically correct (at least in Bulgarian it's not). It should be either

*Momčeto ke dojdeše*
or
*Ako momčeto dojdeše*

or something similar, in other words, perfective verbs can't stand alone in independent clauses when they are in the past imperfect tense (or in the present tense for that matter).

Explaining the difference between the two would be too long. It would include the difference between perfectve and imperfective verbs (which is quite complicated by itself) and the difference between the aorist and imperfect tense. Also, I don't think all of it applies to Macedonian.



cr00mz said:


> Within I and E group, there are several subgroups. Do they all have 2 different L forms?



The L forms are formed from the corresponding aorist and imperfect tenses. So the real question is: Do all verbs from I and E group have both forms for the aorist and imperfect tenses? As far as I know the aorist tense is formed only from perfective verbs, and the imperfect tense is formed from both perfective and imperfective verbs.

So the imperfective verb "*nosam*" forms only the imperfect tense:

*nosev nosevme
             noseše nosevte
             noseše        nosea*

the correspoding L form is *nosel*

the perfetive verbs "*iznosam*" and "*dojdam*" have both tenses

*iznosiv iznosivme
iznosi   iznosivte  
iznosi   iznosija

iznosev iznosevme
iznoseše iznosevte
iznoseše iznosea*

L forms - *iznosil, iznosel

dojdov dojdovme
dojde  dojdovte
dojde dojdoa

dojdev dojdevme
dojdeše dojdevte
dojdeše dojdea*

L forms *došol, dojdel

*Additionally, some verbs like "*umram*" have almost identical aorist and imperfect tenses*

umrev umrevme
umre   umrevte
umre   umrea

umrev umrevme
umreše umrevte
umreše  umrea*

L forms *umrel, umrel*


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## aleksk

Bog Svarog said:


> Then the question remains what the difference between "дошло" and "дојдело" is.
> 
> Иначе од кога почнав да мислам за темава, почнав и да слушам дали мајка ми ги користи формиве, и дали ја ги користам исто така.
> Доста се зачудив дека двајцата ги користиме, кога мислев дека не беше така, само што не внимавав.
> А најсмешното е дека уште не можам да откријам точно што е разликата меѓу дошло и дојдело...
> Momčeto dojdelo - supposedly the boy came
> Momčeto došlo - supposedly the boy came
> ???



Again, sorry for not being able to provide any meaningful grammatical explanation. But you shouldn't worry at all about "momčeto dojdelo" - I don't think you'll ever come across - hear or read - that phrase in modern Macedonian. I haven't and if I ever do it will sound off and I won't even know what the speaker means. This is my guess - it's either archaic or dialectical Macedonian. Definitely not mainstream. "Momčeto došlo" on the other hand is very relevant and common in everyday speech and writing. Just make sure you know the difference between this and "momčeto dojde". That's it. Forget about "dojdelo".


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## Arath

aleksk said:


> Again, sorry for not being able to provide any meaningful grammatical explanation. But you shouldn't worry at all about "momčeto dojdelo" - I don't think you'll ever come across - hear or read - that phrase in modern Macedonian. I haven't and if I ever do it will sound off and I won't even know what the speaker means. This is my guess - it's either archaic or dialectical Macedonian. Definitely not mainstream. "Momčeto došlo" on the other hand is very relevant and common in everyday speech and writing. Just make sure you know the difference between this and "momčeto dojde". That's it. Forget about "dojdelo".



Are phrases like "Momčeto ke dojdelo" used in mainstream Macedonian?


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## aleksk

Arath said:


> Are phrases like "Momčeto ke dojdelo" used in mainstream Macedonian?



Yes, quite common.


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## cr00mz

I have a book, i haven't been able to read through it all, because it's over 300 pages. But i found a chapter/section about Verbal L-formations. Every verb gets the ending, L, LA, LO, LE (masc. sing., fem. sing., neu. sing., pl), but that there are 5 exceptions. One of those exceptions is about words: 

_"with the root 'to go', e.g: the verbs ide, dojde, otide, pojde, najde all show the following changes in the aorist l-form: the -d is replaced by -sh* (i don't know where the real letter is with this new forum format)*, and the -o drops out if there is a vowel in the following syllable. If there is a -j before -d it, too drops out e.g: doshol - doshla, otishol - otishla, poshol - poshla, nashol - nashla"

_To me it seems as if these verbs are irregular, like for example the English verb to bite is, *bite; bit; bitten;*, not *bite; bited; bited;*. the same as *najde; najde/najdeshe; nashol*, or am I wrong? 

As i haven't read the whole book yet I am not sure, but I don't think I've seen any mention of double L-form verbs, but this book is only beginner-intermediate, perhaps what you people mention about 2 L-forms is advanced level


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## Bog Svarog

aleksk said:


> Again, sorry for not being able to provide any meaningful grammatical explanation. But you shouldn't worry at all about "momčeto dojdelo" - I don't think you'll ever come across - hear or read - that phrase in modern Macedonian. I haven't and if I ever do it will sound off and I won't even know what the speaker means. This is my guess - it's either archaic or dialectical Macedonian. Definitely not mainstream. "Momčeto došlo" on the other hand is very relevant and common in everyday speech and writing. Just make sure you know the difference between this and "momčeto dojde". That's it. Forget about "dojdelo".


I have carefully listened to my mother, and can say that she regularly uses *all* three forms.
dojde
dojdel
došol
Hence, I have to conclude that that it's nowhere near archaic, and quite common, from my perspective.


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