# "Γιατί έχει ο γάτος ένα αφτί" elision and rhythm



## balgior

Hello! 



ireney said:


> No, no, the word order is indeed quite flexible. In this case, αφτί has to be the last word obviously for rhyming reasons, but other than that there's no standard way of saying it as far as I know.


True, but...

"Γιατί ο γάτος έχει ένα αφτί": this one ruins the phrase's... well... melody, the meter, which is common in childish teasing! (5 syllables)

While the "Γιατί έχει ο γάτος ένα αφτί" (4 syllables) is ok, as far as the meter is concerned. So I think it must be this one (not what your colleague used to say but what should be more common ).

 Moderator's note. This conversation has been split from this thread. For any further editing that you might think is necessary please contact a moderator.


----------



## Orreaga

That's good to know,
Ευχαριστώ!
(that sort of rhymes, too)


----------



## Kevman

By the way, balgior, I think you mean "(metrical) feet" and not "syllables." 
With apologies in advance for using a bunch of poetry words we thought we'd seen the last of in high-school Lit. class, I'm guessing that _dactyls_ (*stress*-soft-soft) are considered the most euphonious here.
So:
1) *έ* - χει ο | *γά* - τος | *έ* - να α | *φτί*
._ .dactyl . | .trochee | .dactyl_ | extra stress 

flows better than
2) ο *γά* - τος ._ | *έ* - χει _| *έ* - να α | *φτί*
. amphibrach  | trochee | .dactyl_ | extra stress 

Even the trochee in (1) fits better into the 'dactylic' rhythm, while the trochee in (2) feels rather abrupt and interrupts the flow. Maybe the fact that the syllable τος has a closing consonant after its vowel makes it better able to take the place of two unstressed beats?

Anyone else have any little rhymes they want me to ruin with overanalysis?  Better start a new thread for each one!


----------



## wonderment

Kevman said:


> By the way, balgior, I think you mean "(metrical) feet" and not "syllables."



Hi, Kevman. I'm out of my elements when it comes to modern Greek prosody, but I thought balgior meant "_stressed_ syllables." 

Γιατ*ί έ*|χει ο γ*ά*|τος *έ*|να αφτ*ί* 

4 stressed syllables if the τ*ί *and *έ* elide. In ancient poetry, vowels at the end of one word and the beginning of the next elide into one syllable. I'm guessing that's also true with modern poetry (am I wrong?  I'm keen to know if native speakers read the line as 8 syllables; without elision, I counted 11 syllables). The rhythm looks iambic (unstressed syllable, stressed syllable: repeat 4 times).

Γιατ*ί* ο| γ*ά*τος| *έ*χει *έ*|να αφτ*ί

* 5 stressed syllables (even with elision), and the rhythm is completely uneven: iamb| trochee| spondee| iamb. Anyway, I'm not sure about any of this, so we'll have to wait for balgior to explain himself.


----------



## Orreaga

Well I'm not laughing anymore... but since this is getting far more technical than I'd anticipated, maybe someone wants to explain how any of this rhymes with "Γιατί γελάς".  Or is it sufficient for the purposes of childhood verse that "Γιατί" rhymes with "αφτί" and we call it a day?


----------



## Vagabond

Orreaga said:


> Well I'm not laughing anymore... but since this is getting far more technical than I'd anticipated,


I laughed  I am kind of a sucker for overanalysis though 


> maybe someone wants to explain how any of this rhymes with "Γιατί γελάς". Or is it sufficient for the purposes of childhood verse that "Γιατί" rhymes with "αφτί" and we call it a day?


You got it. The standard reply is supposed to rhyme with "γιατί" in general, not specifically with "γιατί γελάς". It was supposed to be an adult defense to the kids' ruthless attack of infinite "why"s. I suppose it got extended to any question starting with a "why" eventually, even though it doesn't rhyme anymore.


----------



## balgior

Kevman said:


> By the way, balgior, I think you mean "(metrical) feet" and not "syllables."


Hi Kevman! Maybe you are right. I am not sure even for the Greek term of what I mean. But, the way you separated the phrases, I think you understood what I mean. You forgot the "Γιατί", however, which makes some difference. 

So:  
1) Γιατί_*έ *| - χει_ο_ *γά* | - τος_ *έ* | - ν'_α*φτί *= 4 ...whatevers
 flows better than
2) Για*τί* | ο_*γά* | - τος_*έ* | - χει_*έ* |- ν'_α*φτί *= 5 of them

 And I have not a clue about trochees, spondees and the rest. 



> Anyone else have any little rhymes they want me to ruin with overanalysis?  Better start a new thread for each one!


That would make some interesting threads! Go ahead, Kev! 



wonderment said:


> Hi, Kevman. I'm out of my elements when it comes to modern Greek prosody, but I thought balgior meant "_stressed_ syllables."
> 
> Γιατ*ί έ*|χει ο γ*ά*|τος *έ*|να αφτ*ί*
> Γιατ*ί* ο| γ*ά*τος| *έ*χει *έ*|να αφτ*ί
> *



Hi wondy!  I think we are all talking about the same thing, don't we? You separated the words pretty much the same way, regardless of which word-syllables get a stress (although I don't agree with your result ). Anyway, all I mean is which are the "strong/stressed" parts of the phrases, when silly-singing them.  We all got that, I guess.


----------



## Kevman

I guess if we're basically talking one stressed syllable per foot (foot = μετρικός πόδας in Greek, I think) then we're all talking about the same thing. I had ignored the γιατί because (until I saw Vagabond's post) I thought _that_ was the one being rhymed rather than the questioner's. 

Interestingly, balgior's unpreferred sentence (2) comes out in perfect iambs, so I still think it's a more roughly triple meter (anapestic maybe?) which is perceived as better. I'm not sure if any of the vowel sounds of "γιατί έχει" would get elided, but the έ definitely seems take the dominant stress of the foot at the expense of the τί. Maybe that's a related phenomenon, or maybe there's some other, extraprosodic explanation for how that works.



Orreaga said:


> Well I'm not laughing anymore...


 Well, you run a bit of a risk asking a simple question around here. Some of us are nerds.


----------



## balgior

Kevman said:


> I guess if we're basically talking one stressed syllable per foot (foot = μετρικός πόδας in Greek, I think) then we're all talking about the same thing.


 


> I'm not sure if any of the vowel sounds of "γιατί έχει" would get elided, but the έ definitely seems take the dominant stress of the foot at the expense of the τί.


I tried to search a little bit about elision, but still not clear. So, to be practical, this could be pronounced as: "γιατι*έ** - χειο*γά* - τος*έ*- να*φτί*", or "γιατ'έ...". I prefer the first one.

 *ιέ, as in "ρεματιές", one sound, palatalized (?), not ι + ε.



> Well, you run a bit of a risk asking a simple question around here. Some of us are nerds.




Are we getting way out of topic?


----------



## wonderment

balgior said:


> I tried to search a little bit about elision, but still not clear. So, to be practical, this could be pronounced as: "γιατι*έ** - χειο*γά* - τος*έ*- να*φτί*", or "γιατ'έ...". I prefer the first one.
> 
> *ιέ, as in "ρεματιές", one sound, palatalized (?), not ι + ε.



Μπράβο ρε balgioraki!  I cannot scan the line correctly until I know about elision in modern Greek poetry, if it’s the same as ancient poetry. "Γιατί έχει ο γάτος ένα αφτί" sounds more melodious to a native speaker, and I’d really like to understand why. We break up this line exactly the same way, but the proper scansion of it depends on the rules for elision.



> Γιατί_*έ* | - χει_ο_ *γά *| - τος_ *έ *| - ν'_α*φτί* (balgior)


- *ν'_α*φτί is an instance of elision. Unelided, this foot (μετρικός πόδας) has 3 beats (or syllables): -να | αφ | τί . Elided, it is read as 2 syllables: -ν’ αφ | τί. I’d like to know if elision occurs also in the 1st and 2nd feet. In other words, as a native speaker, do you pronounce each foot as 2 syllables or 3? (btw, a kind of elision occurs with γιατί. Non-natives are likely to break up the word as 3 syllables: γι | α | τί .  Native speakers read it as 2 syllables: για | τί ) In natural speech, the tendency is to elide vowels when they’re next to each other. We need a special sign called _diaeresis_ (διαλυτικά: ¨ ) to tell us when not to do so: e.g. the distinction between παιδί (2 syllables) and παΐδι (3 syllables). 



> Γιατί *έ*|χει ο *γά*|τος *έ*|να αφ*τί *(wonderment)


If elision occurs, the line would look and read more like this: γιατ’ *έ* | χ’ ο *γά *| τος  *έ * | ν’ αφ*τί* 
Each syllable is either stressed (/) or unstressed (—), so our line would look like this: — /, — /, — /, — /  (it has rhythm, in addition to rhyme—γιατί...αφτί).  It would scan as an iambic meter. 

Various metrical patterns:
iamb: — /  (2 beats or syllables)
trochee: / —
spondee: / / 
dactyl: / — —  (3 beats)
anapest: — — / 

Without complete elision, as you’ve written it, balgior, the line would be: γιατί *έ* | χει ο *γά* | τος *έ *| ν’ αφ*τί   *(— — /, — — /, — /, — /), half anapestic, half iambic, pretty rhythmic, assuming the ‘ί’ in γιατί loses its stress. 

Allowing for elision, the other sentence, “γιατί ο γάτος έχει ένα αφτί” is very unrhythmic; does not flow at all:  γιατ’ *ό* | *γά*τος | *έχ*’ *έν*’  | αφ*τί * (— /, / —, / / , — /)

Now compare “— /, / —, / / , — /” (5 stress accents unevenly spread) with “— /, — /, — /, — /”  or even “— — /, — — /, — /, — /”  (4 stress accents evenly spread). So, it’s not how many metrical feet or stress accents there are in a line that makes it melodious, but how those stress accents are distributed to form a rhythmic pattern (or not). I hope I haven’t confused you more.


----------



## balgior

wonderment said:


> Μπράβο ρε balgioraki! I cannot scan the line correctly until I know about elision in modern Greek poetry, if it’s the same as ancient poetry.


I have no idea! 


> - *ν'_α*φτί is an instance of elision. Unelided, this foot (μετρικός πόδας) has 3 beats (or syllables): -να | αφ | τί . Elided, it is read as 2 syllables: -ν’ αφ | τί. I’d like to know if elision occurs also in the 1st and 2nd feet. In other words, as a native speaker, do you pronounce each foot as 2 syllables or 3?


Definately 2. Keep reading... 


> btw, a kind of elision occurs with γιατί. Non-natives are likely to break up the word as 3 syllables: γι | α | τί .  Native speakers read it as 2 syllables: για | τί


When you see a vowel after a 'ι', you can be (almost) certain that they belong to the same syllable and are pronounced as "one sound", unless, of course, the 'ί' gets an accent. In fact, many times an 'ι' is pronounced even if it doesn't exist, as in "γ(ι)έρος", but that's a looong story.



> In natural speech, the tendency is to elide vowels when they’re next to each other. We need a special sign called _diaeresis_ (διαλυτικά: ¨ ) to tell us when not to do so: e.g. the distinction between παιδί (2 syllables) and παΐδι (3 syllables).


 These are two completely different cases. Explanation needed?



> Without complete elision, as you’ve written it, balgior, the line would be: γιατί *έ* | χει ο *γά* | τος *έ *| ν’ αφ*τί   *(— — /, — — /, — /, — /), half anapestic, half iambic, pretty rhythmic, assuming the ‘ί’ in γιατί loses its stress.


 No, no, no...  First of all, the phrase can be spoken exactly as written. "Radio spokesman" style: slowly and clear, opening the mouth widely letting each vowel sound loud and clear. No rhythm, no elisions etc.
In our case, however, only two schemes, that have a rhythm, are acceptable to my ears: 4 x "— /" and 5 x "— /". I'll write them down both once again. I'll separate the words in spoken syllables (2 per foot), including elisions (proper ones and those which occur due to speech tendency). For the moment please forget of how many syllables each word has.

possible schemes:
a:
1) για-*τιε* | χειο-*γα* | τος-*ε *| να-*φτι              *or για-*τ'ε* | ...(the same)
2)* για*-τι |* ε*-χειο |* γα*-τος |* ε*-να | *φτι*-___ 
b:
1) για-*τι* | ο-*γα* | τος-*ε* | χει-*ε* | να-*φτι
*2)* για*-τιο|* γα*-τος |* ε*-χει |* ε*-να |* φτι*-___     or *για-*τ'ο | ...(the same)

More complex schemes just won't fit. They're either un-rhythmic or way too sophisticated to form a playful answer.  

Hoping you' are reading them correctly ("χειο" sounds as "χιό", nothing else). Now, I should have studied musicology in order to be able to explain why a2 and b2  are out of the question. Although they have a rhythm, they just don't fit as an answer to "γιατί". Maybe it's that pause at the ending. As for a1 and b1, the first one is simpler, smoother and spontaneously formed. That's why it is preferred (according to... me, of course). But, really, we are discussing about the tiniest of the details right now. (Nerds, Kevman, right?  )

Note to moderator: ireney, are you going to punch me?


----------



## wonderment

balgior said:


> wonderment said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In natural speech, the tendency is to elide vowels when they’re next to each other. We need a special sign called diaeresis (διαλυτικά: ¨ ) to tell us when not to do so: e.g. the distinction between παιδί (2 syllables) and παΐδι (3 syllables).
> 
> 
> 
> These are two completely different cases.
Click to expand...


How so? Well...I wouldn’t say _completely_. As I understand it (and correct me if I’m wrong):

παιδί (2 syllables: παι | δί, accent on the second syllable)
παίδι (if such a word exists, 2 syllables: παί | δι, accent on the first syllable)
παΐδι (3 syllables: πα | ΐ | δι,  accent on the second syllable)

The diaresis is needed over the ‘ι’ to indicate that it’s sounded as a separate syllable. It should be noted that ‘αι’ is a digraph in MG (in Classical Greek, a diphthong, a sound formed by the combination of 2 vowels) and sounded as one syllable, unless a diaeresis is placed on the 2nd vowel, or an accent on the 1st vowel: πάιδι (if such a word exists, 3 syllables: πά | ι | δι, accent on the first syllable). So the situation for MG vowels is more complex, but my only point was that some sign is needed to indicate the separate and distinct sounds of 2 vowels next to each other.



balgior said:


> wonderment said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Without complete elision, as you’ve written it, balgior, the line would be: γιατί έ | χει ο γά | τος έ | ν’ αφτί (— — /, — — /, — /, — /), half anapestic, half iambic, pretty rhythmic, assuming the ‘ί’ in γιατί loses its stress.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, no, no...  ...I'll separate the words in spoken syllables (2 per foot), including elisions (proper ones and those which occur due to speech tendency)...
> για-*τιε* | χειο-*γα* | τος-*ε *| να-*φτι* (— /, — /, — /, — /)
Click to expand...


Good—this confirms that we scan this line exactly the same way, and agree that it has an iambic rhythm (or harmonious movement).



			
				balgior said:
			
		

> I'll separate the words in spoken syllables (2 per foot), including elisions (proper ones and those which occur due to speech tendency).
> 
> 1) για-*τιε* | χειο-*γα* | τος-*ε *| να-*φτι *
> 2) για-*τι* | ο-*γα* | τος-*ε* | χει-*ε* | να-*φτι*



 It’s your scansion of the 2nd (less ‘melodious’) line that confuses me. If _it_, too, has an iambic rhythm, it makes no sense to say that it’s less ‘melodious’ than the 1st line. An iambic line is an iambic line, whether it has 4 or 5 or 40 feet. Another perfectly standard _Γιατί _reply (from Vagabond): Για *να* | ρω*τάς *| ε*σύ* is an iambic line with just 3 feet. 

Also, why elision in the 1st line but not in the 2nd line? If elision is allowed for -τιε and χειο, why not also -τι | ο and χει-ε?

I believe you, balgior, that Γιατί έχει ο γάτος ένα αφτί is naturally “simpler, smoother and more spontaneously formed” than Γιατί ο γάτος έχει ένα αφτί. Just that it would be nice to have a more objective explanation as to why this is so. (Γιατί? Γιατί? Γιατί?  Sorry, balgior, for the prolonged agony. )


----------

