# Is there a lack of word skills in your culture?



## Kevin Beach

The British government has become concerned about what it calls “word poverty” among children in the UK. It is proposing to introduce school programmes to teach them how to distinguish between formal and informal usages. The government wants children to learn how to use formal language properly when appropriate. This is how the proposal has been reported in The Times: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/education/article6174865.ece.

Are there similar problems in your country? Are children disadvantaged by not being able to use their own national language competently, despite having a standard education? Is it seen as a problem? If so, are there any proposals to cure it?


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## brian

Well, first I think we need to distinguish between 1) "word poverty" and 2) inability to express oneself "formally." Of course, the two are very related: formal speech contains special vocabulary, so a weak formal vocabulary--a type of (1)--leads to (2).

Anyway, in America there is no real conscious awareness, that I know of, concerning either of these. It wasn't until I had lived abroad (in non-English speaking countries) that I began to consider that English has varying degrees of formality.

Sure, English doesn't distinguish between polite "you" and familiar "you" like many other languages, but we indeed _do_ speak more formally in some situations and more casually in others. Speech differences can be marked by diction (related to "word poverty"), intonation, syntax, etc. etc.

I've noticed that (warning: generalizations ahead!) older people tend to be able to express themselves more formally and eloquently when need be, whereas younger people tend to speak rather casually in all circumstances.

But this could just be the result of changing social phenomena.

I'm sure there are people (e.g. teachers) out there pushing to get children to speak more like they were taught to speak, but as we all know, there's only so much you can do to affect language evolution.


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## Paulfromitaly

There are indeed similar problems in my country: the way most of the teenagers speak and write makes me literally cringe.
They are incapable of getting their point across, unless it's an extremely easy concept, they have no knowledge of speech registers, they make really bad mistakes, their vocabulary is unbelievably poor, they don't know anything about punctuation..
When they ask for a translation from Italian to English, other foreros often have to "translate" what they write into Italian first.
As Brian said, this is a generalization, but unfortunately it's quite close to reality.


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## MkRoz

*Regarding to your question:*
Are there similar problems in your country?

*Where I´m actually working and living-In Spain-;*
*My observations are the following:*

*In Spain (Big Cities*, like Madrid, Barcelona, Coasts,... )The language problem is not a social phenomena;*It´s a family problem!!*
*I´ve noticed that* *if a child/young adult is very good in the formal language* *but he/she comes from a not very good educated/healthy family,* *at the end the only choice to keep the wisdom is to leave the family or to fight against them- the freedom* *is a still a* *topic/**wish* *(in some families) and sometimes it´s impossible to get it* *because the state doesn´t help so much in these issues.*

*MkRoz*


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## Kevin Beach

Brian8733, I think the concern is not for archaic formalities, but for the formality of everyday necessity. The worry is that children, very often untutored by their parents, are growing up assuming that the kind of language used in text messages or internet chat is normal and accepted.


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## brian

Right, that's part of what I was talking about.

I wasn't referring to "archaic formalities," but simply formal usages in general.

A simple example would be the use of "yeah" in a formal context--quite common nowadays--as opposed to "yes." Or when given an order/task, the reply "Sure thing" instead of, say, "Yes, sir."

Then of course there are phrases, e.g. "Nice to meet you" (rather informal) as opposed to "Pleased/A pleasure to meet you." Many of these of course could be argued as "archaic."

And just basic differences in diction & syntax, e.g. "Good morning, may I speak with Mr. XY?" --> "Hi, is Mr. XY there?"

I originally didn't want to list any specific examples since they will necessarily be objectionable to some people, regarding how formal or informal (or how commonly used) they are, but I hope you see my point.


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## coquis14

Kevin Beach said:


> Brian8733, I think the concern is not for archaic formalities, but for the formality of everyday necessity. The worry is that children, very often untutored by their parents, are growing up assuming that the kind of language used in text messages or internet chat is normal and accepted.


Goverments aren't worried at all , on the contrary , their work is to keep us as ignorant as possible. Kids and teenagers commonly use the same quantity of words (About 40 , I'd say) and that is called "pereza mental" in spanish. 

Regards,


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## Víctor Pérez

I’m afraid, *MkRoz*, that the Spain you are talking about is not the same one where I’m living. Your idea about the Spanish families is really sad. You say that only in “some families” “freedom is still a topic”. I remind you that *Kevin*’s question was “*Is there a lack of word skills in your culture?”. *I don’t think that “some families” only make a whole culture. I know Spain and its people and I have never heard that anybody had to leave his home because his language was too formal! Sorry to say but I would find this too funny if it wasn’t so sad! 

  In the Spain I know, *MkRoz*, the families with a cultural level not very high are proud when their kids reach a higher level than theirs and when their language becomes rich and formal. 
  In the Spain I know, families do not like to see their kids spelling their words as if they were sending SMS.
  In the Spain I know, families do not like to hear their kids using so many swearwords as they do.

  Further to *Kevin*’s question, I think that Television doesn’t help much against the informal language and I’m afraid that the praiseworthy initiative of the British government will have to fight against TV because kids prefer to follow the TV than the teachers. A part from the a.m. school programme, the government should kindly ask to the TV scriptwriters to use a richer language in their texts. 

  In Spain we urgently need programs like that too.


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## perrodelmal

I agree, with everybody.

But are you sure we don't sound like our parents saying basically the same years ago about us and our grandparents about our parents?

I know you are right, it just makes me wonder...


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## Frank78

An interesting question as far as it comes to Germany. The question is: CAN´T those teenager speak properly or aren´t they willing to do so. The newest phenomenon here is that native Germans adopt the language of the immigrants. This is caused by pop music, a lot of hip hop music here is made by Turkish immigrants and our kids want to sound like them, really weird. I´m STILL able to understand them but i guess I belong to a minority. 
One characteristic is that after each sentence a filling word (I won´t use "expletive" again, Brian  ) is added, very common is "Alter" (lit. "old guy" but it means "mate"). You surely know how stupid this sound if it´s used like a full stop. 

Anyway this all applies "just" to lower classes. A properly educated young adult still can speak in different levels of language.


"I'm sure there are people (e.g. teachers) out there pushing to get children to speak more like they were taught to speak, but as we all know, there's only so much you can do to affect language evolution."

Well, sorry to disagree here. But YOU can do something. I´m sure you speak like your parents and grandparents have done.  So you as parent can influence how your child speaks. So the question is how many parents care for their children´s language use?

Formal vs informal language is not just a pure linguistic question, it´s also a matter of manner. As manners seem to be on a decline, formal language is as well.


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## effeundici

I don't know; I really don't know. My father used to say the same about my generation.
I really don't know.

We should see what young people will be when they are grown up.


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## Valeria Mesalina

Paulfromitaly said:


> There are indeed similar problems in my country: the way most of the teenagers speak and write makes me literally cringe.
> They are incapable of getting their point across, unless it's an extremely easy concept, they have no knowledge of speech registers, they make really bad mistakes, their vocabulary is unbelievably poor, they don't know anything about punctuation..
> When they ask for a translation from Italian to English, other foreros often have to "translate" what they write into Italian first.
> As Brian said, this is a generalization, but unfortunately it's quite close to reality.



Everything you say may be applied to Spain. 

Some years ago a student who could not spell properly would not have been  admitted into any university. Now... my brother-in-law is a professor at the University. He says that as many as ninety five per cent of his students are unable to write proper Spanish.


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## ernest_

Yes, I noticed that too. Whenever I hear an old man talking, or watch a TV series from ages ago, the language they use strikes me as beautifully crafted, compared to what I'm used to.


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## curlyboy20

Same problem here in Peru, especially in the Andes and the jungle where people don't get that good of an education. A lot of the people living in the mountain villages and the Amazon tribes are either completely iliterate or they can barely spell and speak or express themselves properly in Spanish, and part of the reason behind it is because they have a different language altogether (Quechua and Aymara) so Spanish is their second language. The government is trying to get teachers to go to those areas to educate as many people as they can, but alas, not many people want to do so since the living conditions are just, well, let's say not good. 

As far as the cities in the coast of the country goes, the education is better but there are MANY people who have been to school and even college and they just can't spell properly! A lot of the teachers in both grade school and college cannot even spell, which is really sad. The same is true for every nation, I believe. And in my opinion, the way you spell/speak/express yourself says a lot about how educated you are.


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## Chaska Ñawi

The previous post addresses the skills of indigenous people in _Spanish_, but that does not really equate to a lack of word skills per se.  The Quechua and Aymara have rich vocabularies and intricate levels of meaning, and I have met some real wordsmiths among them.

One could put forward the argument that young Quechua and Aymara speakers are losing their own linguistic heritage and ability to express themselves as they incorporate high-frequency Spanish words and slang into their speech.


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## danielfranco

Something interesting about the English is that, of the 100 most-common words only very few of them (I forget, but I think it's, like, six of them) are not monosyllabic, and all of them are of Germanic origin. I don't quite remember the details, but I think you have to get into the five-hundreds list of most popular words before you come across more…, well, let's call them "florid" words, which are usually borrowed from other languages.

Supposedly, about three-quarters of all English lexicon is Greco-Roman in origin, and usually only used in English because some profession's specialized lingo, like Medicine.

So, the irony is that those thirty-word teenagers are actually preserving the purity of the Germanic origin of English in their stunted utilitarian speech.

Go figure,
D


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## trance0

Interesting topic, it appears there are similar problems in all modern contries as far as language skills are concerned. In Slovenia we have an interesting phenomenon: children of the immigrants from the ex Yugoslav republics(mostly Bosnians, Serbs, Macedonians and Montenegrins) speak with a 'southern(BCS)' accent and many Slovene kids who hang out with them actually imitate them. It is also common practice to use the word "stari(=Alter, old guy, but in the meaning of 'mate')" as an expletive, this seems to be the same as Frank78 mentioned for German.
Language skills vary significantly from town to town and depend very much on education. People with good language skills in Slovenia usually have a degree in something NOT technical, that is something in the field of social sciences or languages. There are many exceptions though, I have no degree(loser student ), but I think my language skills are a little above average.


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## ewie

danielfranco said:


> So, the irony is that those thirty-word teenagers are actually preserving the purity of the Germanic origin of English in their stunted utilitarian speech.


The problem, DF, is when they can't even use _those_ correctly ...
The problem is not so much poverty of _vocabulary _as general poverty of _language_: inability to spell, lack of awareness of differing registers, that kind of stuff.


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## brian

ewie said:


> The problem, DF, is when they can't even use _those_ correctly ...



Either they can't, in which case it's not their fault and they're simply speaking the language they learned (who could blame them?), or they choose not too, which is usually the result of wanting to sound a certain way or like a certain group.

It's an identity thing, and we all do it ... just maybe not to the extreme that others do.

I certainly talk much differently with my family and friends in southern Louisiana--I misconjugate, say things like "he don't," etc.--because that's what I grew up with there, yet at college or elsewhere in the states I'll talk "correctly."

I _could_ speak "correctly" with my southern friends & family if I wanted, but then I would stand out as "that weird college-edjukated kid."

Fortunately for me, I can distinguish between dialect/slang/regional English on the one hand, and standard English on the other hand; but many people _cannot_ or _choose not to_, for whatever reason.


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## ewie

brian8733 said:


> they're simply speaking the language they learned (who could blame them?)


That's kind of the point, Brian, though I'd prefer to describe it as _They're speaking that way because of the things they *haven't* been taught.

_I don't deny for one moment that peer pressure plays a large part

(Wow! you were quick then, Brian.)


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## brian

ewie said:


> That's kind of the point, Brian, though I'd prefer to describe it as _They're speaking that way because of the things they *haven't* been taught._



Well, you have to keep in mind of course that children hear language and learn to speak well before* school--or at least before the kind of school that has a class called "English." And even then it's mostly focused on writing rules and not elocution. Teachers always correct kids' writing but rarely correct their spoken English .... well, except those crazy teacher who force you to say "may I go to the bathroom" instead of "can I..."--but they're just swimming upstream. 

So anyway, by the time children start learning that stuff, their own languages--which they learned at home--have already been ingrained within them.

So I think non-standard language from the parents will often be handed down no matter what, or at least until the kid makes a conscious effort to _change_ his idiolect--like I did when I moved to Chicago. (I stopped saying "he don't," "y'all," etc.)

But so often kids have no will or even reason to change, partly because of peer pressure:


			
				ewie said:
			
		

> I don't deny for one moment that peer pressure plays a large part



and partly for other reasons, like pride in one's accent or dialect, etc. I think it's pretty complicated. But very interesting. 



			
				ewie said:
			
		

> (Wow! you were quick then, Brian.)



I try.

*[speak] [well before], not [speak well] [before].


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## Chaska Ñawi

Let's have a look at the original question:



> Are there similar problems in your country? Are children disadvantaged by not being able to use their own national language competently, despite having a standard education? Is it seen as a problem? If so, are there any proposals to cure it?



and return to that, please.

Thanks to all for your cooperation!


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## elirlandes

In my experience, this issue is far greater in English speaking countries (UK/USA) than in Spain or France. I am particularly astounded in the UK at how poorly people speak/express themselves - all the more frustrating given the opportunity afforded them by English which is such a versatile yet functional language.


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## Grop

I agree this problem is probably not happening in France. At least, I couldn't find any trace of a national concern, or think of it.

(I also searched for illiteracy rates among adults - surprisingly most people concerned are above 46).

You may hear the occasional rant about teenagers (and now young adults) being unable (or unwilling) to spell things correctly. But that tells us little about the quality of their speech, or perception of register, once they are grownups.


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## trance0

I think the same holds true for Slovenia. I don`t believe any citizen here is disadvantaged because of his/her bad language skills. Most people have a solid language competency anyway. So, the only people who are in a disadvantage here are immigrants, especially those from Non-Slavic speaking countries who need a little more time to learn the national language of Slovenia. Illiteracy rate in Slovenia is among the lowest in Europe and has been like this for over three centuries. So, all in all I would say we don`t have any real language problems in Slovenia, at least not like many other countries probably have(like children of indigenous population in South America).


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## federicoft

Honestly I don't think this is a problem in Italy either, nor I think it is considered an issue outside of the occasional "what-is-the-world-coming-to" rant.

Young people like to use slang with their peers, and this is frowned upon by the older generation, but they are generally able to distinguish between different contexts and speaking properly in more formal settings. 
People complaining about their language skills are reapeating exactly the same things their parents used to say about them fourty years ago. Perhaps the most significant difference now is the increased social interaction between classes, which makes popular culture, including its fashion and slangs, more likely to reach and influence the media, or other segments of society.


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## Paulfromitaly

federicoft said:


> Young people like to use slang with their peers.



One thing is to consciously speak slang when it's acceptable, another is not to be able to do otherwise.


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## Sepia

I know of at least one institution in Germany - they are training people for medical professions - where the teachers have been provided with list of words that they should avoid using in any spoken or written communication with the students. Philosophy: They wouldn't understand them anyway and it takes too long to explain them. 

I suppose this also means that there is not only a lack of word skills - they don't know what a dictionary is used for either. 

There are simple everyday words on the list, like "berücksichtigen" (to take into consideration).


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## federicoft

Paulfromitaly said:


> One thing is to consciously speak slang when it's acceptable, another is not to be able to do otherwise.



Exactly. It doesn't seem to me there are so many youngsters unable to speak properly when they have to.

I think it's more of an urban legend than a reality. After all, average people in, say, the 1960s hardly were more educated than they are today.


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## Chaska Ñawi

As many of the posts here do not address the original question, but contain only personal opinions about the topic, this thread is now closed.

Thanks to all for their participation.


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