# Slovene: prevajanje pregovorov



## *cat*

Pozdravljeni,

Zanima me, kako je s prevajanjem pregovorov, rekov oz. naukov.

Primer:
"Do not count your chickens before they are hatched."

Kaj je bolje?
- dobesedni prevod, ki v tem primeru tudi v ciljnem jeziku pove kar pove v originalnem: "Ne preštevaj piščancev dokler se ne izvalijo."
ali
- enačico v ciljnem jeziku, ki že obstaja, čeprav ne izhaja iz zgodbe, ki jo prevajaš, kar pomeni tudi, da njen avtor ni tisti, čigar delo prevajaš: "Ne delaj računa brez krčmarja."

Hvala.


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## Duya

Srpskohrvatski ima

_[Ne] šilji ražanj dok je zec u šumi_

Postoji li ekvivalent u slovenskom?


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## *cat*

Duya said:


> Srpskohrvatski ima
> 
> _[Ne] šilji ražanj dok je zec u šumi_
> 
> Postoji li ekvivalent u slovenskom?



Mislim, da bi ekvivalent res lahko bil ravno eden izmed mojih dveh ponujenih pregovorov.
Se pa zanimam za prevajanje pregovorov na splošno, ne le za navedeni primer, seveda pa me zanima tudi kateri izmed prevodov se zdi boljši še vam ostalim.


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## sokol

In cases like that I definitely would translate with an idiom in the target language - "Ne delaj računa brez krčmarja." - rather than a literal translation: the latter would sound unidiomatic.

Only when there isn't a Slovene idiom which would quite fit you might consider a literal translation - but only in case this would be clearly understandable for native speakers (which of course seems to be the case here).

In this case both analogies - plus the Serbian one - work a little bit different but I think they're still close enough to use for a translation.


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## Orlin

I ja glasam za "Ne delaj računa brez krčmarja" s argumentom da takav ekvivalentan idiom postoji u mom maternjem bugarskom, a i je on "doslovan prevod" slovenačkog: "Не прави сметки без кръчмар" (Ne pravi smetki bez krachmar). Nema potpuno isto značenje kao englesko "Do not count your chickens before they are hatched.", ali je izuzetno slično i mnogo idiomatično.
Izvinjavam se, ali ne znam slovenački. Nadam se da razumete.


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## *cat*

sokol said:


> In cases like that I would definitely translate with ...


I think it's better that way (order). 
Thanks for your opinion.

Orlin, thank you too, I understand what you mean (as long as you don't use Cyrillic alphabet).  
But, it's true, I don't see the difference between "Do not count your chickens before they are hatched." and "Ne delaj računa brez krčmarja." The same goes for Duya's _"Ne šilji ražanj dok je zec u šumi_."
OK, one has chickens, another has bills and another rabbits, but don't all of them mean something like "don't do something until you're positive of the outcome"? 

Bi pa vas vprašala še nekaj. Kje iščete pregovore ciljnega jezika? Saj jih človek ve nekaj, a ne vseh. Kako se torej znajti, da ne "izumljaš tople vode"?


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## Orlin

Ja mislim da izbor ekvivalentnog idioma u ciljnom jeziku može da bude samo po osećaju - i zato je "idiomatički prevod" verovatno mogući samo za izvorne govornike ciljnog jezika. Verujem da je prevod uz pomoć idioma uvek bolji, ako je mogući. Ali nažalost retko je mogući.


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## *cat*

Orlin, le še nekaj. Verjetno si spregledal moje vprašanje.



Orlin said:


> Nema potpuno isto značenje kao englesko "Do not count your chickens before they are hatched.", ali je izuzetno slično i mnogo idiomatično.





*cat* said:


> I don't see the difference between "Do not count your chickens before they are hatched." and "Ne delaj računa brez krčmarja." The same goes for Duya's _"Ne šilji ražanj dok je zec u šumi_."
> OK, one has chickens, another has bills and another rabbits, but don't all of them mean something like "don't do something until you're positive of the outcome"?


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## Orlin

Nažalost ne razumem "le še nekaj".


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## *cat*

Orlin said:


> Nažalost ne razumem "le še nekaj".


One more thing. Maybe you overlooked my question.

I asked you about the difference between this idioms.


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## trance0

Orlin said:


> Nažalost ne razumem "le še nekaj".




It means '(just) one more thing'.


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## Orlin

Izvinjavam se što nisam odgovorio - bio sam bez internet dostupa, a i ne znam kakva je razlika medju idiomima u pitanju. Da, nisam razumeo pitanje zato što nisam čitao pažljivo, molim vas da to oprostite.


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## Duya

*cat* said:


> One more thing. Maybe you overlooked my question.
> 
> I asked you about the difference between this idioms.



I think the difference is only slight; maybe that's just my interpretation.

In "_ne delaj računa brez krčmarja_", it is implied that you're not in the position of an _authority_ to fulfill the plan. As in, when teenager kids plan a night out before an approval from their parents.

In "_do not count your chickens before they are hatched_" (and the BCS variant with _ražanj_), it is implied that the plan cannot be fulfilled because _other conditions _may not be met.

In both cases, the lesson is similar in the sense that you should be patient to wait for other things to happen, before your plans can be fulfilled.


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## *cat*

But you all agree that it's better to use idioms from target language that already exist that to translate English idiom?

Here's the story:
The Milk-Woman and her Pail - Jacob's translation:
_Patty the Milkmaid was going to market carrying her milk in a
Pail on her head.  As she went along she began calculating what
she would do with the money she would get for the milk.  "I'll buy
some fowls from Farmer Brown," said she, "and they will lay eggs
each morning, which I will sell to the parson's wife.
(Quote shortened - please click the Wiki link above)

"Ah, my child," said the mother,

"Do not count your chickens before they are hatched."_

I think that "Ne preštevaj piščancev dokler se ne izvalijo." would be better even if we all know for "Ne delaj računa brez krčmarja."
What do you think?


And, I already asked that, but maybe you didn't notice:
Where do you look for Slovene idioms? I mean, you're translating, find English idiom, doesn't remember any known idiom from our language, but you would like to check if there maybe is one, but you don't know it. Where would you look?


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## sokol

*cat* said:


> But you all agree that it's better to use idioms from target language that already exist that to translate English idiom?


In principle, yes I do agree.

This case however might be one where another solution should be found; or at least I think your Slovene suggestion of "ne delaj računa brez krčmarja" might not be very good here.
It would be ideal if there's an idiom in Slovene which would fit better with the flow of the story; if possible with eggs in it (as eggs are indeed playing a part in the story even though the milkmaid doesn't intend to let them hatch and grow chicken).

I think that Duya's Serbian suggestion "ne šilji ražanj dok je zec u šumi" is closer to the story as it is about not dreaming about the hare on the spit as long as the hare's still not shot. If you have a somewhat similar Slovene idiom I'd say that'd be okay, else you should probably consider a literal translation in this case.


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## *cat*

Thanks sokol.
I was already thinking of another idiom in Slovene, but with no luck. I'm open to suggestions ...
But there's always a problem with idioms that are written at the end of a fable, because they're always connected with the story - words in idiom (eggs, hares, foxes, ...) are almost always same as words in the fable.


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## Duya

I agree with Sokol. _In principle, _one should go with a native language idiom rather than a literal translation. However, it's a bit questionable whether this one fits the _spirit _of the story_._


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## sokol

Cat, a suggestion: if you cannot find a Slovene story which more or less would go well with the spirit of the story then instead of a literal translation of:
_"Do not count your chickens before they are hatched."_

you could also do something different: as there isn't an idiom which is exactly equivalent to the English idiom, why not translate:

_"Do not count your eggs before they are lain."_
or:
_"Do not count your eggs before they are sold."_
 (I'd prefer the former, it sounds more "fable-like".)

In this case I think it would be justified to change the original wordings in this specific case - first and foremost because to a Slovene reader the concluding sentence of this fable would be immediately logical with "lain eggs" while they probably would take some time to recognise what this lines is about with "hatched chickens".


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## *cat*

Sokol, thank you. That's very interesting. 

So, "Ne preštevaj jajc, dokler niso znesena?" It sounds all wrong in our language, doesn't it?

But I was thinking ... the original idiom is about chickens, but there are no chickens in the fable ... just milk and eggs and fowls.


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## sokol

*cat* said:


> So, "Ne preštevaj jajc, dokler niso znesena?" It sounds all wrong in our language, doesn't it?


Yes, it doesn't sound too smooth.
That's really a tough one, because a literal translation of the English phrase also is not very elegant.

You could search for other versions of that very same fable - in other languages you know: I'm sure that a BCS variety should be available somewhere on the world wide web, probably this would help find a better translation.


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## *cat*

sokol said:


> You could search for other versions of that very same fable - in other languages you know: I'm sure that a BCS variety should be available somewhere on the world wide web, probably this would help find a better translation.



Iščem, iščem, nič ne najdem ...


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