# Brazilian Portuguese vs European Portuguese



## Todessprache

For a nonspeaker, what are the primary differences?
Brazilian Portuguese vs European Portuguese


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## Tagarela

Olá,

A nonspeaker? Well, for a nonspeaker, I wonder, there's no difference. 
Talking seriously now...there are some threads who comment on it, the following:

Português brasileiro

Expressões com sentidos diferentes no pt/europeu e no pt/brasileiro

Tratamentos em Portugal: "você", "tu", "senhor(a)"

Português de Portugal x Portugês do Brasil/Espanhol da Espanha vs Am.Latina

*Difference between European and Brazilian Portuguese

And there are many other discussions, or mini-discussions among the threads. But if you have a specific question, let us know, and we'll kindly reply it if possible.

Ah, and welcome to the forum!

Até.:


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## maddie87

Hi, I was just wondering what are the main differences between Brazilian Portuguese and European Portuguese...

For example:

If you were to speak informally with a friend in Brazilian and European Portuguese would you use the same kind of language? (e.g. você, tu?) and if you are speaking formally with someone what would you use in European and Brazilian Portuguese?

And pronouns... I know the prounouns in European Portuguese tend to go on the end of the word but what I would like to know is when using the imperitive (giving orders in Brazilian Portuguese where do you put the pronouns? (e.g. dá-me in European Portuguese)


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## Vanda

Veja quantas discussões  sobre este tema:

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1220958

One more: 

more

Please refer to one of them. Obrigada!


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## Istriano

Try here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_Portuguese


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## EyesOnBrazil

I just wrote this on my blog where I teach the language, but I'll repost it here. 


 					I’ve seen many people in many forums and communities who ask about the differences between European Portuguese and Brazilian Portuguese. Some people answer that with a history lesson, some say they are basically the same while others bring up a few phrases that seem funny in one country or the other. I’d like to tell you about 6 practical ways in which you can know if you are reading European Portuguese.


*6 Ways to Know it’s European Portuguese*

*1.* The use of the personal pronoun _tu_ (instead of _você_). I think it’s important to learn how to use ‘tu’ and how to conjugate verbs using it, as even in Brazil, in the North and the South, you’ll hear ‘tu’ used.


*2.* Reflexive verbs are hyphenated, with the reflective part always following the verb. In Portugal, the phrase “I want you well” would be “_Eu quero-te bem_” (enclisis), while in Brazil, it would be “_Eu te quero bem_” (proclisis). There is also something called mesoclisis (see number 6), which is common in Portugal.


*3.* The use of “Estar + a + verb in the infinitive” instead of “Estar + verb in the gerund (-ing form)”. In Brazil, you would say “_Estou pensando_” while in Portugal, you would say “_Estou a pensar_“.


*4.* The use of _se calhar_ in addition to _talvez_ as a way to say ‘maybe’. The word _calhar_ means chance/happen.


*5.* The rearrangement of determinors (_aqui, aí, lá, ali_, etc). In Portugal, you are more likely to see, for example, “_eu lá fiquei_” (I stayed there) instead of “_eu fiquei lá_” which would be found in Brazil.


*6.* Last but not least, in Portugal, you will see the use of the mesoclisis, which is a grammatical term that means ‘within the verb, between the stem and the suffix’. In Continental Portuguese, you’ll see “_eu comprá-lo-ei_” (I will buy it) while in Brazilian Portuguese, you will see “_eu o comprarei_“.


_Keep in mind, not everything listed is exclusive to either side of the Atlantic (ocean), although it’s best to be prepared, right?_


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## Vanda

Muito bom, Brazil. Você fez um apanhado geral de algumas diferenças básicas. 
Querer pontuar todas as diferenças é o mesmo que querer falar das diferenças entre o inglês americano e do britânico, do australiano... etc. A maioria das coisas vai coincidir, algumas coisas são específicas de cada lugar.


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## Istriano

I don't  think it's important to learn_ tu/vós_ forms if your aim is modern spoken Brazilian Portuguese. You can leave them for the end, after you've learned more important stuff.
In many parts of Brazil these forms sound like _thou/thee_ in English. 90 % of people who use tu use it with the _você _verbal forms...
But then again, _tu _and _vós _forms are not that difficult, especially if you are familiar with the Spanish language...
Basically  for tu, you add -s or -es, and the only different forms are the ones in the past simple: _-aste,-este,-iste._


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## danjr

In Portugal they speak Prtgs


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## patriota

Read this article written specially for people like you: Brazilian vs. European (aka Continental or Iberian) Portuguese explained for non-Portuguese speakers.


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## U3000-21

patriota said:


> Read this article written specially for people like you



é um artigo algo falacioso, na minha opinião... sobretudo no que diz respeito aos exemplos utilizados


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## Istriano

This one is better:
http://www.necco.ca/faq_what_clients_need_to_know.htm


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## Carfer

Istriano said:


> This one is better:
> http://www.necco.ca/faq_what_clients_need_to_know.htm


 
Se excluirmos o facto de que, dos cinco exemplos de diferenças terminológicas que aponta, três estão manifestamente errados no que respeita a Portugal


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## patriota

U3000-21 said:


> é um artigo algo falacioso, na minha opinião... sobretudo no que diz respeito aos exemplos utilizados


Poderia descrever os problemas? Eu já entrei em contato com o autor uma vez, e ele respondeu prontamente.


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## Denis555

Carfer said:


> Se excluirmos o facto de que, dos cinco exemplos de diferenças terminológicas que aponta, três estão manifestamente errados no que respeita a Portugal


 
Olá Carfer!
Como diríamos no Brasil (talvez também em Portugal), _você poderia matar a cobra e mostrar o pau?_
Ou seja, poderia mostrar os erros?


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## Carfer

Denis555 said:


> Olá Carfer!
> Como diríamos no Brasil (talvez também em Portugal), _você poderia matar a cobra e mostrar o pau?_
> Ou seja, poderia mostrar os erros?


 
Certamente, Denis.

*English ..................**Brazilian Port. ...............**European Port. *
File......................... Arquivo......................... Ficheiro
Card........................ Placa........................... Cartão (_placa_)
Door (as in Unit Door)..Porta........................... Portinhola (_porta_)
Software.................. Software...................... Logicial(_software_/_programa_)
Screen.................... Tela............................. Écran, ecrã

Não usamos por cá tal expressão, que eu saiba. Bem vê, as nossas cobras são insignificantes em número e qualidade


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## Alentugano

patriota said:


> Read this article written specially for people like you: Brazilian vs. European (aka Continental or Iberian) Portuguese explained for non-Portuguese speakers.


 
I do not think this article is a reliable source.

_*"6. Logic.* This is the most deadly and least-documented difference, the basic reason that led me to write this whole article. Maybe it's difficult to research its origins historically, but it's all-pervasive. My way of putting it is that in Brazil we say that "for a good understander, half a word is enough", while in Portugal "words are taken at face value"._

For instance, the statment shown above is not correct. In fact, here in Portugal we do have a popular saying that goes like this: _"Para bom entendedor, meia palavra basta"_ which is to say _"for a good understander, half a word is enough"._
In respect to _"words are taken at face value" _I don't know for sure if it has a portuguese equivalent.


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## Carfer

Alentugano said:


> I do not think this article is a reliable source.
> 
> _*"6. Logic.* This is the most deadly and least-documented difference, the basic reason that led me to write this whole article. Maybe it's difficult to research its origins historically, but it's all-pervasive. My way of putting it is that in Brazil we say that "for a good understander, half a word is enough", while in Portugal "words are taken at face value"._
> 
> For instance, the statment shown above is not correct. In fact, here in Portugal we do have a popular saying that goes like this: _"Para bom entendedor, meia palavra basta"_ which is to say _"for a good understander, half a word is enough"._
> In respect to _"words are taken at face value" _I don't know for sure if it has a portuguese equivalent.


 
I think he refers to _'as palavras valem o que valem',_ which is not even a saying and certainly a much less used expression than '_Para bom entendedor, meia palavra basta'. _I think there's a tendency to exagerate the differences between the european and american variants of Portuguese. They exist, of course, they are a good thing and proof of the vitality of the language, but no need to invent new ones.


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## SidewaysDan

EyesOnBrazil said:


> I just wrote this on my blog where I teach the language, but I'll repost it here.
> 
> *5.* The rearrangement of determinors (_aqui, aí, lá, ali_, etc). In Portugal, you are more likely to see, for example, “_eu lá fiquei_” (I stayed there) instead of “_eu fiquei lá_” which would be found in Brazil.
> 
> *In Portugal, "eu fiquei lá" or for example "nós fomos lá" is much more widely used than "eu lá fiquei" ou "nós lá fomos".
> 
> I don't know for sure, but I think that "nós lá fomos" would tend to be used more in Brazil.
> *
> 
> _Keep in mind, not everything listed is exclusive to either side of the Atlantic (ocean), although it’s best to be prepared, right?_




Just a little correction. You nailed most of it though .


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## Macunaíma

_Lá_ antes do verbo não é tão comum no Brasil. Esse uso é mais encontradiço em dialetos rurais e tem uma conotação arcaica.


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## portumania

I want to learn European Portuguese (to go in Portugal as an Erasmus student), but most books in the market are from Brasil. Are there many differences? Much more differences than between for example US and UK English? Would it be a "waste of time" to use Brazilian books?


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## almufadado

portumania said:


> I want to learn European Portuguese (to go in Portugal as an Erasmus student), but most books in the market are from Brasil. Are there many differences? Much more differences than between for example US and UK English? Would it be a "waste of time" to use Brazilian books?



If you go to Portugal you can speak with whatever accent that you will be (hopefully) understood.

In Brazil there isn't  that "latitude" in accent, but you will also be understood.

You will learn a lot from the differences

Depending on subjects, there aren't that much differences that are easy to spot.


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## Nonstar

Nobody would tell you that it is a waste of time. If you learn Brazilian Portuguese, you will be able to tell the differences, right?
The lexicon within Brazil itself is quite varied, sometimes we are not able to understand people from the northeast. It is hard to say if there are more differences between us and Portugal than the U. S. and the U. K., but it's possible to make an analogy.
You can't use colloquial BrP in Portugal, for sure. Or can you?
Formal language? Perhaps. 
I notice a lot of difference in tone whenever I read our Portuguese counterparts. 
The accent? You know, it's tremendously different.


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## portumania

almufadado said:


> If you go to Portugal you can speak with whatever accent that you will be (hopefully) understood.
> 
> In Brazil there isn't  that "latitude" in accent, but you will also be understood.
> 
> You will learn a lot from the differences
> 
> Depending on subjects, there aren't that much differences that are easy to spot.




I just wonder how useful can exotic-like words like "bugiganga" and "fofoca"  be in Portugal.


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## Nonstar

portumania said:


> I just wonder how useful can exotic-like words like "bugiganga" and "fofoca"  be in Portugal.



Depends on the context.


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## almufadado

portumania said:


> I just wonder how useful can exotic-like words like "bugiganga" and "fofoca"  be in Portugal.



"Bugiganga" I think is actually a word of African/Arab origin.
 (althouth some dict's say that it come to the Portuguese via the spanish "_bojiganga_"). 
http://books.google.pt/books?id=OkZ...&source=gbs_atb#v=onepage&q=bugiganga&f=false

About Portugal, one thing you must always have in mind is that we are widely exposed to :

-> Brazilian culture (telenovelas, samba, imigration and in my case also a bit of family ties) . In tv, Brazilian soaps only loose to football, less nowadays because of the raising national production of this forms of entertainment. 

-> British and American cultures by their wide spread "mass-culture" production exports (my favorite band is an English one !) 

-> Brazilian immigrants don't even have to make that extra effort to adapt in term of accent (a bit in vocabulary, but even that get assimilated by us, including 
"fofoca" e "feijoca" but we have "beijoca" e mixiruca 

"maminha" e "picanha" some "adopted" meat cuts 

"tá na cara !" -> for "is visible and perceptible" /"it's understood"


On the other hand, in Brazil, people say "Euros" a lot   and in Portugal people think still they have "cruzeiros" there ! 




Nonstar said:


> Nobody would tell you that it is a waste of time.
> You can't use colloquial BrP in Portugal, for sure. Or can you?
> Formal language? Perhaps.
> I notice a lot of difference in tone whenever I read our Portuguese counterparts.
> The accent? You know, it's tremendously different.



Learning is never a waste of time ! 

Colloquial language when filled with "figures of speech" is very difficult in  any language. I was watching a maconha insight report on tv Record which included some one-on-one interviews with some farmers. They speak in an almost unintelligible way (mostly due a low degree of education ... or none!), for me (not for all!) is not that it needed translation but it a very "hard" exercise to understand.  

The accent -> Numa telenovela Brasileira em que entrava um ator Português, era giro vê-lo a ter que alterar a pronúncia de 30% das palavras para se fazer entender. O inverso não se passa quando transmitidas em Portugal, pois mesmo que não se entenda uma palavra aqui ou ali "apanha-se" o sentido pela acção.


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## Archaicos

There're some differences between the European Portuguese (EP) and Brazilian Portuguese (BP).

Here's what I've found so far...

*Pronunciation*:

The European and Brazilian pronunciations differ a lot. It appears that  in each country there're regional variants as well (e.g. Rio de Janeiro  vs São Paulo).

The vowels are pronounced differently. EP seems to like schwas and the like and is  said to "eat" its vowels (indeed they turn into schwas or disappear).

OTOH, in BP in some "inconvenient" consonant clusters an extra vowel (i)  may appear:
abdômen /ab*i*'dome~/

In BP t and d before the i sound turn into /tʃ/ and /dʒ/.

R and rr differ in EP and BP.

S and z may differ in EP and BP (depending on which BP pronunciation you  consider; if I'm not mistaken, s and z of Rio are the same as those of EP).

*Spelling*:

a*c*ção, elé*c*trico, exce*p*ção, sú*b*til, ba*p*tismo, co*n*nosco, ide*m*nizar (EP)
vs
ação, elétrico, exceção, sútil, batismo, conosco, idenizar (BP)
The extra letters aren't pronounced in EP, though. There're many words like these.

catorze (EP) vs quatorze (BP)
dezasseis (EP) vs dezesseis (BP)
cin*que*nta (EP) vs cin*qüe*nta(BP) - que is still read as qüe, though.
A few other numerals differ as well.

Setembro, Outono, etc (EP) vs setembro, outono, etc (BP)

há-de (EP) vs há de (BP)
porque...?, porquê...? (EP) vs  por que...?, por quê...? (BP)

chegámos (EP) vs chegamos (BP) - AFAIK, the pronunciation of "a/á" differs also.

quilómetro (EP) vs quilômetro (BP) - the pronunciation may differ.

*Grammar*:

mil milhões (EP/BP) vs bilhão (BP)

até a (EP) vs até (BP) = until

todos os dias (EP) vs todo dia (BP)

Progressive tenses are formed differently:
está a chover (EP) vs está chovendo (BP)

Refexive pronouns have different order:
chamo-me Maria (EP) vs me chamo Maria (BP)

Direct object pronouns o(s)/a(s) in BP are colloquially replaced with ele(s)/ela(s)/você(s).

EP collouially uses the imperfect tense instead of the conditional:
gostaria/gostava de comprar um bolo = I'd like to buy a cake.

*Vocabulary*:

The vocabulary differs. There are regional and colloquial details and slang.
For example:
comboio (EP) vs trem (BP) = train
chávena (EP) vs xícara (BP) = cup


I'm pretty sure there're some other differences. But as some said, if you master one dialect, it shouldn't be much of a trouble to understand the other and be understood.


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## portumania

Archaicos said:


> a*c*ção, elé*c*trico, exce*p*ção, sú*b*til, ba*p*tismo, co*n*nosco, ide*m*nizar (EP)
> vs
> ação, elétrico, exceção, sútil, batismo, conosco, idenizar (BP)
> The extra letters aren't pronounced in EP, though. There're many words like these.
> 
> 
> cin*que*nta (EP) vs cin*qüe*nta(BP) - que is still read as qüe, though.
> A few other numerals differ as well.
> 
> Setembro, Outono, etc (EP) vs setembro, outono, etc (BP)
> 
> há-de (EP) vs há de (BP)
> porque...?, porquê...? (EP) vs  por que...?, por quê...? (BP)
> 
> chegámos (EP) vs chegamos (BP) - AFAIK, the pronunciation of "a/á" differs also.


why you mention all these differences? they do not exist anymore since the new orthography started to be valid.

by the way how is the ending -am pronounced? it sounds to me like a nasal "aun" rather than a nasal "an".


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## Vanda

Please, have a look on the previous thread on the matter now above your 1st post.


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## portumania

Vanda said:


> Please, have a look on the previous thread on the matter now above your 1st post.



which one?


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## anaczz

> *W*hy you mention all these differences? *T*hey do not exist anymore since the new orthography started to be valid.


Not yet!
Portugal is not following the ortographic agreement.There is a 6 years "moratory" (beginning in 2008).


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## MOC

anaczz said:


> Not yet!
> Portugal is not following the ortographic agreement.There is a 6 years "moratory" (beginning in 2008).




I'm not sure if all are, but some newspapers are using it, and either way if he uses the ortographic agreement, he'll be writing correctly even during those 6 years, won't he?


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## portumania

anaczz said:


> Not yet!
> Portugal is not following the ortographic agreement.There is a 6 years "moratory" (beginning in 2008).



In Portugal, the reform was signed into law by the President on July 21, 2008 allowing for a 6-year *adaptation *period, during which both orthographies will *co-exist*.


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## helenag

Carfer said:


> I think he refers to _'as palavras valem o que valem',_ which is not even a saying and certainly a much less used expression than '_Para bom entendedor, meia palavra basta'. _I think there's a tendency to exagerate the differences between the european and american variants of Portuguese. They exist, of course, they are a good thing and proof of the vitality of the language, but no need to invent new ones.



I would not classify this as a language difference, but as a cultural one. For example, one day I asked in a bar "Você tem cappuccino?", and the attendant went to the back of the bar and came with a cappuccino. He was really angry when I said I hadn't asked for it, but only if he had it. This kind of situation is something that happens frequently here, and from what I've heard, in Portugal it would never happen.

Other example is when we don't have a watch and ask someone passing by, "Você tem horas?", and the person replies with the time.

Is it really different in Portugal or am I wrong?


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## Carfer

Helena, my guess is that if you ask someone _'Você tem horas_?', you should expect that the person replies with the time. In Portugal or elsewhere. What else?

As to _'Você tem capuccino?_' I also think that a Portuguese attendant would bring you one at once. People are not expected to enter a bar enquiring about what they have, especially if it is as quite a common commodity as coffee (the Portuguese are high consumers of coffee, which is good and also very cheap compared to European standards). Besides, coffee and _espresso_ machines are a quite obvious item of equipment in our bars and coffe-shops, not to mention the smell. Further, we usually add a small nod when asking and that nod serves as a confirmation if need be, which I think is quite unnecessary. Things could go otherwise in other types of shops though, especially if you are looking for something that is not displayed in the shelves, is a less common merchandise or has not a standard price).


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## helenag

Carfer said:


> Helena, my guess is that if you ask someone _'Você tem horas_?', you should expect that the person replies with the time. In Portugal or elsewhere. What else?
> 
> As to _'Você tem capuccino?_' I also think that a Portuguese attendant would bring you one at once. People are not expected to enter a bar enquiring about what they have, especially if it is as quite a common commodity as coffee (the Portuguese are high consumers of coffee, which is good and also very cheap compared to European standards). Besides, coffee and _espresso_ machines are a quite obvious item of equipment in our bars and coffe-shops, not to mention the smell. Further, we usually add a small nod when asking and that nod serves as a confirmation if need be, which I think is quite unnecessary. Things could go otherwise in other types of shops though, especially if you are looking for something that is not displayed in the shelves, is a less common merchandise or has not a standard price).



So maybe I'm the one a bit too "literal". 

Actually this situation I described was really one of a kind. Maybe I shouldn't have called the place a bar, it was more precisely a "calzone" fast-food shop, and the cappuccino really wasn't announced anywhere. I also added "Quanto custa?" at the end but had no answer (and the price was a good reason for not buying it).

But what I had been told about Portugal was that if you asked someone "Você tem horas?", the person would find it an awkward question and reply with something like "Tenho". For me, it made a lot of sense.


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## Carfer

helenag said:


> But what I had been told about Portugal was that if you asked someone "Você tem horas?", the person would find it an awkward question and reply with something like "Tenho". For me, it made a lot of sense.


 
Para lhe ser franco, há muito tempo que não me acontece perguntar ou ser perguntado pelas horas. O que menos falta nos faz hoje são relógios, que os há de toda a espécie e em toda a parte e equipamentos. Mas, quando tal me acontecia, tenho a certeza de muitas vezes ter perguntado _'Tem horas_?' e do mesmo me terem perguntado a mim. É possível que algum engraçadinho se lembrasse de me responder '_Tenho_', mas não me recordo de tal me ter acontecido e certamente levaria a questão para o lado da anedota. Isto mesmo sabendo que os puristas me podem asseverar que o correcto é _'Diz-me as horas?_'. Aliás, bem vistas as coisas, e vai-me permitir discordar, responder '_Tenho_' também não faz lá muito sentido. As horas não são coisas que se tragam no bolso como a carteira ou um molho de chaves. Se alguém me pergunta '_Tem horas?',_ só pode querer saber se tenho relógio (ou telemóvel, calculadora ou qualquer geringonça que marque o tempo) e se lhe posso dizer que horas são. Só por extrema má vontade lhe responderia '_Tenho_.'


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## anaczz

A princípio, eu tinha essa mesma impressão que a helenag referiu. Mas logo notei que não é exatamente esse o "problema".
Algumas situações desse tipo ocorrem porque em Portugal há um rigor maior no uso das palavras, enquanto no Brasil há uma maior "licenciosidade linguística". 
No Brasil estamos acostumados a "ampliar" o sentido das palavras, a substituir palavras por outras de sentido aproximado (e às vezes nem tão próximo como isso). Creio que é uma peculiaridade cultural brasileira, portanto nós, por cá, entendemos; mas os portugueses não tem esse comportamento e o que para nós parece facilmente inteligível, fica sem sentido para eles.
Essas histórias de perguntar se tem horas e responderem "Tenho", ou perguntar se a loja fecha no sábado e dizerem que não (porque não abre aos sábados) são anedotas!
Só um exemplo real que me vem à cabeça:
No trabalho, precisávamos de uma mesa auxiliar e não havia. Eu peguei um equipamento qualquer que tinha uma superfície lisa e disse:
- Pronto, isto virou mesa!
Só ouvi um coro: "Como?"
Fui buscar no meu dicionário interior (coisa que tinha que fazer frequentemente em Portugal) uma palavra mais adequada e disse "Isto tornou-se uma mesa" e então já perceberam o que eu queria dizer.


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## MOC

Em relação ao último caso que contou, o que me custa a entender, é em todo um grupo de pessoas não haver uma que tivesse entendido. Se o tivesse dito no meu emprego, estou seguro que toda a gente o entenderia.


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## Debinha

The greatest difference is the wide range of accents both countries have.
Despite being a native speaker, I find it difficult to tell some accents heard in Portugal sometimes.
I believe a portuguese guy would say the same about some brazillian accents, as they can be very tricky too, especially when people speak very fast.
Also, brazilian portuguese is more rich in slangs, I think.


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## anaczz

MOC said:


> Em relação ao último caso que contou, o que me custa a entender, é em todo um grupo de pessoas não haver uma que tivesse entendido. Se o tivesse dito no meu emprego, estou seguro que toda a gente o entenderia.



Vai ver então que era por eu ser brasileira... Vai saber!


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## MOC

Só para esclarecer e ter a certeza que não sou mal interpretado, é evidente que "virar algo" é uma expressão bem brasileira que penso não ser utilizada por portugueses normalmente, mas daí a não entender?

Até mesmo pela forma como o português brasileiro entra na casa de quase todos os portugueses pelos meios de comunicação.


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## helenag

Muito obrigada pelas explicações. Muito esclarecedoras!
Espero ir eu mesma a Portugal um dia e conhecer mais da cultura de perto.


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## sauer

*1.* The use of the personal pronoun _tu_ (instead of _você_). I think it’s important to learn how to use ‘tu’ and how to conjugate verbs using it, as even in Brazil, in the North and the South, you’ll hear ‘tu’


truth is I'm here and Manaus in Amazonas you hardly find someone talking "você" is more common to use the pronoun "TU"


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## Istriano

MOC said:


> Só para esclarecer e ter a certeza que não sou mal interpretado, é evidente que "virar algo" é uma expressão bem brasileira que penso não ser utilizada por portugueses normalmente, mas daí a não entender?
> 
> Até mesmo pela forma como o português brasileiro entra na casa de quase todos os portugueses pelos meios de comunicação.




Então português de Portugal (bem como o español) carece de um verbo tão comum como _become  _inglês e _virar _brasileiro e usa outros verbos menos diretos / mais gerais (como _transformar-se_).


''O sapo virou um príncipe''  The frog became a prince.   [Fairy tale]
''O sapo se transformou em um príncipe''   The frog transformed itself into a prince. [Science Fiction tale]


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## Istriano

sauer said:


> *1.* The use of the personal pronoun _tu_ (instead of _você_). I think it’s important to learn how to use ‘tu’ and how to conjugate verbs using it, as even in Brazil, in the North and the South, you’ll hear ‘tu’
> 
> 
> truth is I'm here and Manaus in Amazonas you hardly find someone talking "você" is more common to use the pronoun "TU"




_Tu _is a synonym of _você _in RJ and Nordeste (except for some cities where only _você _is used like Salvador-BA and Mossoró-RN):


*Tu/você *não *deveria se *preocupar.
*Tu/você falou *que ia na festa.


Even in Rio Grande so Sul where they use reflexive TE instead of SE (Tu não devia te preocupar), the verb is conjugated like você: _tu falou, se tu vier...

_So, we may say the _tuteo verbal _is disused in most of Brazil.

Both tu and vós verbal forms should be learned if one wants to read old literature, poetry and the Bible.


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## 4TranslatingEnglish

Istriano said:


> Então português de Portugal (bem como o español) carece de um verbo tão comum como _become  _inglês e _virar _brasileiro e usa outros verbos menos diretos / mais gerais (como _transformar-se_).
> 
> 
> ''O sapo virou um príncipe''  The frog became a prince.   [Fairy tale]
> ''O sapo se transformou em um príncipe''   The frog transformed itself into a prince. [Science Fiction tale]



Não. Já se disse atrás que usamos "tornar(-se)". "Transformar" tem um significado diferente:
_Com o passar dos anos, *tornou-se* num belo rapaz. Mas tinha um segredo: todas as luas cheias se *transformav*a em lobisomem._


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## anaczz

4TranslatingEnglish said:


> Não. Já se disse atrás que usamos "tornar(-se)". "Transformar" tem um significado diferente:
> _Com o passar dos anos, *tornou-se* num belo rapaz. Mas tinha um segredo: todas as luas cheias se *transformav*a em lobisomem._



Aí está o que eu quis dizer com haver maior rigor no uso das palavras em Portugal e maior licenciosidade no Brasil.
Para um brasileiro tornar-se e transformar-se (assim como virar) poderiam ser usados, sem prejuízo do entendimento, em ambas as orações:

Para nós, não há grande diferença entre:
Com o passar dos anos, transformou-se num belo rapaz, mas durante a lua cheia tornava-se um lobisomem.
Com o passar dos anos, transformou-se/tornou-se num belo rapaz, mas durante a lua cheia virava lobisomem. (mais informal)
Com o passar dos anos, tornou-se num belo rapaz, mas durante a lua cheia tranformava-se em lobisomem.


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## Macunaíma

Eu tenho um pouco de preguiça de verbos pronomiais. _Virar _vem bem a calhar.


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## marta12

Só para esclarecer a entrada em Portugal do acordo ortográfico.

Já há alguns jornais que escrevem segundo o acordo ortográfico.
Nas escolas os livros escolares com o acordo ortográfico entram oficialmente em vigor no ano tectivo 2011/2012.

Como é evidente, há muitos, principalmente autores, que ainda não o querem fazer. Nas editoras, o problema é a necessidade de investimentos gráficos, não sei se é a palavra correcta, e saber o que fazer a todos os livros que têm em armazém.

Enfim, os portugueses são bastante conservadores e não percebemos a necessidade de acordos. O exemplo mais flagrante é o inglês versus o americano, nunca precisaram de acordos para nada e, espanhois versus latino-americanos, que também nunca fizeram acordos.

No Brasil, também sei que houve polémica.


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## Vanda

Marta temos um qui-lo-mé-tri-co tópico sobre o ''bendito'' des-acordo, 264 posts. Aqui.


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## marta12

Obrigado Vanda


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## tritone

Istriano said:


> Even in Rio Grande so Sul where they use reflexive TE instead of SE (Tu não devia te preocupar), the verb is conjugated like você: _tu falou, se tu vier...
> 
> _So, we may say the _tuteo verbal _is disused in most of Brazil.



verbs in the imperative seem to always be conjugated in the familiar tu form.

*fala*!  *fica*! me *da* uma cerveja! ...ect


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## Istriano

I disagree. According to many linguists, this is just an indicative form used for commands:


_*Chora (você)!*_  (indicative command)
_*Não chora!*_ (indicative command)
_*(Você) não chora aqui na frente de todo mundo! *_(indicative command)
_*Não quero que você chora! *_(indicative instead of subjunctive, common in São Paulo, but in many mineiro speakers too!)


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## ludeosue

Can anyone describe the most notable pronunciation differences between these two dialects?is there a similar topic?

BP and EP


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## Vanda

Welcome to the forums. 

You should be more explicit about BP and EP. I think you mean Brazilian and European. I'll merge with one of the ''zillion'' threads on the issue.


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## Ariel Knightly

ludeosue said:


> Can anyone describe the most notable  pronunciation differences between these two dialects?is there a similar  topic?
> 
> *BP and EP*


Onde  no Brasil ainda usamos o [e], em Portugal usa-se uma vogal central  fechada e às vezes nem mesmo isso, o que me lembra um pouco a língua  francesa.

*pessoa *- PB: p*[e]*ssoa; PE: p*'*ssoa
*au revoir* (_adeus _em francês)- au r*'*voir

Algo  semelhante ocorre com as vogais átonas finais. Enquanto no Brasil ainda  preservamos a vogal [ɪ], comum em Portugal até o século XVIII, hoje por  lá esse som foi reduzido a uma vogal central quase que inaudível.

*fale *- PB: fal[ɪ]; PE : fal[ə]
*nuage *(_nuvem _em francês) - nua[ʒ]

Outra  diferença é que em PB o ditondo [eɪ̯] continua fechado, ao passo que em  PE isso parece ter se transformado num ditongo bem mais aberto: [aɪ̯].  Veja "baim"...

Em outros aspectos, contudo, o dialeto europeu já é mais conservador que o brasileiro. 

*atrás *- PB: atr[aɪ̯ʃ]; PE: atr[aʃ]
*advogado *- PB: a[dʒɪ]vogado; PE: a[d]vogado
*tia *- PB: ['tʒi]a; PE: ['t]ia
*dia *- PB: ['dʒi]a; PE: ['d]ia
*sol *- PB: so[ʊ̯]; PE: so[l]


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## skizzo

Why no one talk about african portuguese?

Check out this angolan chick singing a song on a Portugal show: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOUfU-l702M


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## Istriano

Ariel Knightly said:


> *sol *- PB: so[ʊ̯]; PE: so[l]



Não é bem assim:


português antigo, português caboverdiano e espanhol atuais: so[l] /aproximante lateral dental/
português europeu e catalão: so[ɫ]  /aproximante lateral alveolar velarizada/ 
português brasileiro: so[ʊ̯] ~ so[w]

A (semi)vocalização é a última fase da velarização.
(No entanto, o l luso e o catalão soam aos falantes nativos de espanhol peninsular como um u).


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