# Hindi/Urdu: charchaa चर्चा چرچا



## Birdcall

I know there are 2 separate words spelled charchaa चर्चा. One is masculine and one is feminine, and they have different meanings. Is it true that the feminine definition means discussion (bahas), and that the masculine definition means something like gossip (gapshap)?


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## Faylasoof

Birdcall said:


> I know there are 2 separate words spelled charchaa चर्चा. One is masculine and one is feminine, and they have different meanings. Is it true that the feminine definition means discussion (bahas), and that the masculine definition means something like gossip (gapshap)?



Yes it can be either masculine or feminine! Ages ago we even had a discussion about this as part of another thread.

Here is Platts on چرچا चर्चा _charchaa:

_H چرچا चर्चा _ćarćā_ [S. चर्चकः, rt. चर्च्],  s.m. Repetition, recitation, careful perusal, consideration,  deliberation, reflection; investigation, inquiry; discussion,  argument; attention (to business), engagedness; prevalence; talking over  past events, mentioning, incidental mention, discourse, popular talk, report, rumour, gossip;—practising,  applying, cultivating (science, &c.); adoring:—_barćāvalī__ćarćā_+_āvali_),  
 (s.f. Discourse, mention, recapitulation; story, history, account:—_ćarćā  karnā__kā_), To make mention (of), to talk or discourse (of or about); to report, to give out;—_ćarće-meṅ rahnā_ (-_ke_), To continue engaged in, to apply oneself constantly to, &c.

In Urdu چرچا is always masculine and most commonly used to mean  شُہْرَت_ shuhrat_  /  دُھوم _dhoom_ = reputation, fame, renown, celebrity, publicity / notoriety


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## panjabigator

Birdcall, I was actually thinking about this just yesterday.  Kind of interesting how words switch gender from Hindi to Urdu.  FLS, perhaps we discussed this word when we discussed the word <dahī> and how it's masculine in Urdu and feminine in Hindi.

What is the etymology of the Urdu variant?  Is it Persian?  Do we have any poetic verse to provide an example?

Edit: here is a useful thread.  It would be nice to go back to it and expand some more.
Double Edit: Oddly, we discuss it again here.  Interesting conversation, though.


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## Faylasoof

panjabigator said:


> Birdcall, I was actually thinking about this just yesterday.  Kind of interesting how words switch gender from Hindi to Urdu.  FLS, perhaps we discussed this word when we discussed the word <dahī> and how it's masculine in Urdu and feminine in Hindi.



Actually there is a thread (which I can't find!) where even discussed _charchaa_ as a result of another word (explains why I can't trace it), showing gender wobble. 
 


> What is the etymology of the Urdu variant?  Is it Persian?  Do we have any poetic verse to provide an example?


 The etymology for the Urdu word is the same for the HIndi. But as we have dicussed earlier, for Urdu the Delhi and Lucknow didn't always agree on gender and either the two schools show gender divergence or, for reasons not kown to me, one became dominant over the other! I think for _charchaa_ it might be the latter. It is not Persian. 



> Edit: here is a useful thread.  It would be nice to go back to it and expand some more.
> Double Edit: Oddly, we discuss it again here.  Interesting conversation, though.


 Thanks for these links! Forgot how slapdash and scatty we were once!


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## panjabigator

*Moderator Note: Posts on <dahii> found here: Indo-Iranian Languages: yogurt*

Faylasoof, just to clarify: I know چرجا is feminine for Hindi (generally) but is still for Urduphones (from Delhi)?  

Can anyone weigh in on Western Punjabi?  As far as I know, چرجا is feminine in Punjabi: کیہ چرچا مچی ھوی اے؟  

Koozagar bhai ya Cilqui: thoughts?


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## Faylasoof

panjabigator said:


> *Moderator Note: Posts on <dahii> found here: Indo-Iranian Languages: yogurt*
> 
> Faylasoof, just to clarify: I know چرجا is feminine for Hindi (generally) but is still for Urduphones (from Delhi)?
> 
> Can anyone weigh in on Western Punjabi?  As far as I know, چرجا is feminine in Punjabi: کیہ چرچا مچی ھوی اے؟
> 
> Koozagar bhai ya Cilqui: thoughts?



PG, this is rightly so in Urdu regardless of it being either the Dehlavi or Lakhnavi schools. All Urdu lexicons I've seen give چرجا_ charchaa_ a masculine gender. I think this is becaue we Urduphones are following the Prakrit rules for gender assignment. When nouns end in *-aa* we consider them masculine, e.g. لڑكا_ laRk*aa*_, گدھا_ gadh*aa*_, گھوڑا_ ghoR*aa*_, جوتا_ juut*aa*_ etc.


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## drkpp

The noun चर्चा [char-chaa] derived from root verb चर्च् 10th conjugation ubhayapada has feminine gender in Sanskrit.

http://freetranslationblog.blogspot.com


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## panjabigator

Faylasoof said:


> Actually there is a thread (which I can't find!) where even discussed _charchaa_ as a result of another word (explains why I can't trace it), showing gender wobble.



Located!  Was it this?


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## Faylasoof

panjabigator said:


> Located!  Was it this?



Yes, this is it! Thanks PG!


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## tonyspeed

Thanks for this thread. In Bajirao Mastani charchaa is treated as masculine and I was wondering why.
However, I don't recall it being used to mean gapshap. I will have to watch it again.


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## marrish

In order to provide complete infomation about Urdu let me update this thead with dictionary entries from Farhang-e-Asafiyya (1918), from LuGhaat-e-rozmarrah (Faruqi 2010) for those more into modern sources.

.*چَرچا—*ہ۔اِسمِ *مُذکّر* (۱) ذکر ۔ اذکار ۔ افواہ ۔ تذکرہ ۔ گُفتگُو (۲) شُہرہ ۔ اوائی (۳) بحث ۔ تکرار​_*charchaa*—h-ism-e-*muzakkar* 1. zikr, azkaar, afwaah, tazkirah, guftuguu 2. shuhrah, awaa'ii 3. baHs, takraar._
*.چرچا کرنا—*ہ۔فِعلِ‌لازِم۔ کسی کا ذکر کرنا ۔ کِسی چیز کا جا بجا ذکر کرنا ۔ باہم ذکر کرنا ۔ تذکرہ کرنا​_*charchaa karnaa*—h-fi3l-e-laazim— kisii kaa zikr karnaa, kisii chiiz kaa jaa ba-jaa zikr karnaa, baa-ham zikr karnaa, tazkirah karnaa._​*.چرچا ہونا—*ہ۔فِعلِ‌لازِم۔ افواہ ہونا ۔ شُہرہ ہونا ۔ بات پھَیلنا ۔ ذکر اذکار ہونا ۔ بُرائی کے ساتھ ذکر ہونا​_*charchaa honaa*—h-fi3l-e-laazim— afwaah honaa, shuhrah honaa, baat phailnaaa, zikr azkaar honaa, buraa'ii ke saath zikr honaa._​​Faruqi 2010:
* چرچا — *اردو میں "چرچا" مذکر ہے، اور "تذکرہ، خاص کر کثرت سے تذکرہ" کے معنی میں آتا ہے، مومن کا دلچسپ شعر ہے آنکھ نہ لگنے سے سب احباب نےآنکھ کے لگ جانے کا چرچا کیا. ہندی میں یہ لفظ مؤنث ہے، اور "بات چیت، ذکر" کے معنی میں آتا ہے۔ بعض لوگ اسے اردو میں بھی یوں ہی استعمال کرتے ہیں، لیکن اردو کے لئے یہ محض غلط اور قبیح ہے:۔
غلط اور قبیح: آپ کے دہلی آنے بارے میں آج میں نے ان سے چرچا کی تھی۔
غلط اور قبیح: انھوں نے آپس میں چرچا کر کے طے کیا کہ...۔

ملحوظ رہے کہ اردو لفظ "چرچا" کی جمع "چرچے" مستعمل ہے۔ ہندی میں "چرچا" بمعنی "بات چیت، ذکر" کی جمع سننے میں نہیں آئی۔​*charchaa*—
_urduu meN "charchaa" *muzakkar* hae, aur "taZkirah, xaas kasrat se taZkirah" ke ma3nii meN aataa hae, Momin kaa dilchasp shi3r hae aaNkh nah lagne se sab aHbaab ne aaNkh ke lag jaane *kaa* charchaa kiyaa. *hindii* meN yih lafz *mu'annas* hae, aur "baat chiit, zikr" ke ma3nii meN aataa hae. ba3z log urduu meN yuuN hii isti3maal karte haiN, lekin urduu ke li'e yih maHz Ghalat aur qabiiH hae:_
_Ghalat aur qabiiH: aap ke dihlii aane baare meN aaj maiN ne un se charchaa kii thii._
_Ghalat aur qabiiH: unhoN ne aapas meN charchaa kar ke tae kiyaa kih..._

_malHuuz rahe kih urduu lafz "charchaa" kii jam3 "*charche*" musta3mal hae. hindii meN "charchaa" ba-ma3nii "baat chiit, zikr" kii jam3 sunne meN nahiiN aa'ii._

Some literary evidence:
شہر میں چرچا ہے اب تیری نگاہ تیز کا
وہ کرے دل کے تئیں یہ نیمچہ انگریز کا
(شاہ حاتم)​_shahr meN charchaa hae ab terii nigaah-e-tez kaa
wuh kare dil ke ta'iiN yih niimchah aNgrez kaa_
_(Shah Hatim)_​​  "القصہ اس عشق کا چرچا تمام شہر میں پھیل گیا کوئی گلی اور کوئی کوچہ ایسا نہ تھا جہاں فرہاد و شیریں کا ذکر نہ ہو۔"​_alqissa, is 3ishq kaa charchaa tamaam shahr meN phail gayaa ko'ii galii aur kuuchah aisaa nah thaa jahaaN farhaad-o-shiiriiN kaa zikr nah ho. (سیّد احمد دہلوی)_


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## Dib

tonyspeed said:


> Thanks for this thread. In Bajirao Mastani charchaa is treated as masculine and I was wondering why.
> However, I don't recall it being used to mean gapshap. I will have to watch it again.



At least in Delhi colloquial speech ("aam bol-chaal"), I have normally heard "charchaa" in masculine, and indeed often in plural, like "(har taraf) ABC ke baRe charche chal rahe haiN" to mean "everybody is talking about ABC" or "ABC is the talk of the town". I am less familiar with the feminine usage and its meaning, though I know it exists.


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## mundiya

Dib said:


> I am less familiar with the feminine usage and its meaning, though I know it exists.



The meaning is the same, regardless of gender. 

The original gender is feminine. It seems to have gotten changed to masculine in Urdu and some forms of Hindi due to the influence of Khariboli words ending in -aa that are masculine.


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## Dib

mundiya said:


> The meaning is the same, regardless of gender.



I have a feeling it is not exactly the same, though I cannot come up with any examples with confidence. Is it possible to say "ABC kii aaj-kal baRii charchaa(-eN) chal rahii hai(N)" in the sense of "ABC is the talk of the town these days"? What about Marrish-jii's examples from above? Do they sound idiomatic in Hindi?
_aap ke dihlii aane (ke?) baare meN aaj maiN ne un se charchaa kii thii._
_unhoN ne aapas meN charchaa kar ke tae kiyaa kih..._



> The original gender is feminine.



I agree if by "original" you mean Sanskrit. But then, it is not unheard-of for Hindi to differ in the gender assignment of Sanskrit loanwords from the original, even outside of the Sanskrit neuter gender, e.g. aatmaa, mahimaa, garimaa, kiraNR, etc. are normally feminine in Hindi, while the corresponding Sanskrit words are masculine. On the other hand, do we know which gender was historically first used in Urdu and in Hindi for "charchaa", and when?



> It seems to have gotten changed to masculine in Urdu and some forms of Hindi due to the influence of Khariboli words ending in -aa that are masculine.



That sounds like a fair assessment, ignoring whether "changed" is the accurate word.


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## littlepond

It is one of those rare words which changes its gender when changing number: feminine in singular (with the meaning of "discussion") and masculine in plural (with the meaning of "gossip"). I am only talking of its actual usage in western UP, and not any grammatical books' conventions.

Modi's "chai pe charcha" thus has the feminine _charcha_ in it.


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## Wolverine9

Dib said:


> I have a feeling it is not exactly the same, though I cannot come up with any examples with confidence.



The usage appears to be the same Dib jii. You can verify it through Google if you wish. Only difference is gender.



> I agree if by "original" you mean Sanskrit. But then, it is not unheard-of for Hindi to differ in the gender assignment of Sanskrit loanwords from the original, even outside of the Sanskrit neuter gender, e.g. aatmaa, mahimaa, garimaa, kiraNR, etc. are normally feminine in Hindi, while the corresponding Sanskrit words are masculine. On the other hand, do we know which gender was historically first used in Urdu and in Hindi for "charchaa", and when?



Based on dictionary quotations, it seems to have always been used as feminine in standard Hindi and the major Hindi dialects. A switch in the gender is possibly implied in the DSAL dictionaries that lean towards Urdu. The earlier dictionary by Shakespear lists the word as both masculine and feminine, while Platts only masculine.


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## Wolverine9

Faylasoof said:


> PG, this is rightly so in Urdu regardless of it being either the Dehlavi or Lakhnavi schools. All Urdu lexicons I've seen give چرجا_ charchaa_ a masculine gender. I think this is becaue we Urduphones are following the Prakrit rules for gender assignment. When nouns end in *-aa* we consider them masculine, e.g. لڑكا_ laRk*aa*_, گدھا_ gadh*aa*_, گھوڑا_ ghoR*aa*_, جوتا_ juut*aa*_ etc.



These aren't Prakrit rules because Prakrit words ending in long aa are usually feminine.


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## Wolverine9

littlepond said:


> It is one of those rare words which changes its gender when changing number: feminine in singular (with the meaning of "discussion") and masculine in plural (with the meaning of "gossip"). I am only talking of its actual usage in western UP, and not any grammatical books' conventions.



This basically supports marrish's post#11. Cross-contamination is causing Urdu speakers to use the feminine form (incorrect for Urdu), and Hindi speakers to use the masculine plural (incorrect for Hindi).


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## mundiya

Dib: Yes, your example with "charchaa" in feminine is fine. Speech can vary, but "charchaa" in feminine is far more common in all registers of written Hindi.

Littlepond: Feminine singular is used with the meaning of "gossip" too and many other definitions. Masculine is also used in singular, but more often in plural as you stated.

Wolverine: Masculine usage is not wrong in Hindi (as far as I know). It just represents a nonstandard influence.


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