# FR: He thought about would his father would say to him when he would come home.



## Diddlina

He thought about what his father would say to him when he would come home.

My suggestion.

Il a pensé à que son père lui dirait quand il rentrerait à la maison.


Also, is it apperant that the person coming home is the kid and not the father?


Thank you.


----------



## zonbette

Il pensait à ce que son père lui dirait en rentrant à la maison


----------



## Fleurs263

He thought about what his father would say to him when he came home.
(we can't say 'would come home'  as in  your example)

He thought about what his father would say to him, when he went home.
Or 
He thought about what his father was going to say to him, when he returned home.
These two examples make it clear that the person returning home is the child, the son.  In your example, it would be understood that the father is the person coming home.  
I hope this helps! Can't help with the french, it's not my maternal language and I could easily make a real mess of it!

Also, is it apparent that the person coming home is the kid and not the father?


----------



## Diddlina

Fleurs263 said:


> He thought about what his father would say to him when he came home.
> (we can't say 'would come home'  as in  your example)
> 
> He thought about what his father would say to him, when he went home.
> Or
> He thought about what his father was going to say to him, when he returned home.
> These two examples make it clear that the person returning home is the child, the son.  In your example, it would be understood that the father is the person coming home.
> I hope this helps! Can't help with the french, it's not my maternal language and I could easily make a real mess of it!
> 
> Also, is it apparent that the person coming home is the kid and not the father?




I knew the English one wasn't right but I don't really care.  Just wanted to give an idea of what I was trying to say. It's hard since I think it up i Icelandic and French but when I ask here I have to translate it into English first...


----------



## Diddlina

zonbette said:


> Il pensait à ce que son père lui dirait en rentrant à la maison



I don't really think en rentrant fits there...

While returning?


----------



## FrançoisXV

Il réfléchissait à ce que son père allait lui dire quand il rentrerait à la maison. (as in the "original" one, can't say without further context if the father or the son is coming home)


----------



## Fleurs263

Hey Diddlina, I  misunderstood your question and thought you wanted to know if it would be understood in English (i.e whether the boy or father was going home ....); so I guess I was wasting my time!


----------



## VictaHeri

Diddlina said:


> Also, is it apperant that the person coming home is the kid and not the father?



The only problem I see with the English is "would come" as opposed to "came".  There is a bit of ambiguity about who the "he" is-- at first I thought it was the father, but then I reread it and wondered if it was the kid...



Diddlina said:


> He thought about what his father would say to him when he would come home.



"Il pensait à ce que son père lui dirait quand il revenait chez lui" seems to clear up the confusion a bit...

I don't think the "lui" is really necessary in "lui dirait".  It seems a bit redundant.

It might help if there were some other part of the sentence.  I keep wanting to add "et devait expliquer son absence." or something like that.


----------



## Diddlina

Fleurs263 said:


> Hey Diddlina, I  misunderstood your question and thought you wanted to know if it would be understood in English (i.e whether the boy or father was going home ....); so I guess I was wasting my time!



Yeah kind of, but thanks anyway.


----------



## Diddlina

VictaHeri said:


> The only problem I see with the English is "would come" as opposed to "came".  There is a bit of ambiguity about who the "he" is-- at first I thought it was the father, but then I reread it and wondered if it was the kid...Yes I was myself going to use the came but somehow I decided upon would come. I think my brain is not working very properly this evening since most of the time my English is pretty good!
> 
> 
> 
> "Il pensait à ce que son père lui dirait quand il revenait chez lui" seems to clear up the confusion a bit... Is revenir better than rentrer and should you choose the imparfait? (I had chosen conditionnel but imparfait makes sense)
> 
> I don't think the "lui" is really necessary in "lui dirait".  It seems a bit redundant. I think I agree
> 
> It might help if there were some other part of the sentence.  I keep wanting to add "et devait expliquer son absence." or something like that.



This is the whole paragraph, maybe the context helps:

Nicolas devait rentrer chez lui. Il a commencé à marcher en faisant attention de ne pas mettra les pieds sur les espaces entre les pavés. Il a pensé à que son père lui dirait quand il rentrerait à la maison. Le père de Nicolas était toujours le premier de sa classe. Il ramenait de l’école beaucoup de tableaux d’honneur. Il dirait aussi que Nicolas n’aurait pas le droit d’aller au cinéma ce mois-là et qu’il était un ingrat.


----------



## jann

Actually, this is an interesting question. 

The first problem is to know who the _il_ is in "_...quand il rentrerait à la maison_".  From your first post, and from your story, I think it is the boy, Nicholas.

The boy is returning to his home.  On the way, he wonders about how his father will react to his news.  We have two problems (1) verb tenses, and (2) making it clear that the boy, and not the father, is the one who is returning home.

Let's talk about verb tenses first.  If the principle clause were in the present tense, we would follow the standard French tense sequence of _quand_ _+ [futur] + [futur]_.  This is not a tense pattern that we use in English, so comparisons between French and English tenses in this sentence may be of limited utility.  There is an added complication of reported speech.

_Nicolas pense : "que dira mon père quand je rentrerai, quand je lui dirai ?"
Nicolas pense à ce que dira son père quand il [=Nicholas] rentrera._

Now, if we put this in the past tense, it seems we should respect the usual tense transformations of reported speech, specifically that the future tenses of direct speech become conditional tenses in reported speech:

_Nicolas pensait : "que dira mon père quand je rentrerai ?"
Nicolas pensait à ce que dirait son père quand il [=Nicholas] rentrerait.  _

However, this sentence has now become complicated enough that we can end up with a few other options that don't sound too bad, such as those cited below.  Things are further complicated by the need to express who is returning home (the boy, or the father).  The English sentence does not make it clear, but let's assume it is the boy who returns home.  Notice that I haven't translated the French sentences below word for word, tense for tense, but rather into more "natural" English.

_Il pensait à ce que son père lui dirait en rentrant à la maison_ (de Zonbette)
--> This one means either (a) "While returning home, he thought about what his father would say" or (b) "He thought about what his father would say to him [when his father] got home."  

_Il réfléchissait à ce que son père allait lui dire quand il rentrerait à la maison._ (de FrançoisXV)
--> Like the English sentence, this one is also ambiguous about who is returning home.  It says, "He pondered/thought about what his father was going to say to him when he [father or son?] returned home."

_"Il pensait à ce que son père lui dirait quand il revenait chez lui"_ (de VictaHenri)
-->  "He thought about what his father would say to him when he [father or son?] came home."
However, for the boy to think about someone "coming" home, he needs to be at home himself already.  Otherwise he would think about someone "going" home.  Therefore, if the boy is thinking about himself, he is thinking about "going" home, since otherwise he would already be there!  This means that VictaHenri's sentence would really only make sense _il revenait = _the father, and if the boy is already home.  (Side note: I'm not convinced that the imperfect tense is the best choice here.)

Since we know from the story in the post above that the boy is going home, but has not yet arrived, we should use _rentrer_ to talk about the boy.  (If the boy were already at home, and if he was thinking about his father, and if the father was coming home later, then we would use _revenir_ to talk about the father.  But if the boy is going home, and the father will come home later, then we would have to use _rentrer_ for both of them, and it would be confusing who we were talking about.)


Native speakers, what is the most natural tense sequence to use here?  And what is the most natural phrasing (perhaps it will be ambiguous, as in English!) that you would choose to indicate that Nicholas is the one who is returning home?


----------



## VictaHeri

Jann a raison-- la question du temps des verbes est très importante ici.
Vous pouvez peut-être utiliser le passé simple s'il s'agit d'une histoire complète.

[...]
(1) Est-ce qu'on dit "mettre les pieds sur les espaces entre les pavés" pour "step on the cracks on the sidewalk"?

(2) Les temps: puisqu'on raconte une histoire qui s'est passée dans le passé, on utilise l'imparfait.  Dans cette histoire, on raconte des événements qui se sont passés _avant _elle, donc on utiliserait le plus-que-parfait.

(3) Un problème de logique.  On ne sait rien de ce que le père dirait avant cette phrase.  Peut-être celle-ci doit se placer avant "Le père de Nicolas était...", mais je ne suis pas écrivaine, donc je ne sais aucune solution!

(4) "Ce mois" pour Nicolas, mais pas pour le lecteur.  Je ne suis pas sûre si "depuis" est correct.

Voyons ce que les français disent!


----------



## Diddlina

Thanks to both VictaHenri and Jann.

VictaHenri, this is resume from a book and previously I've use the same tense as in the book most of the time and gotten close to a hundred so I don't think I need to change the whole thing.

Yes, it is the boy going home, wondering what his father will say when he arrives there.


----------



## Maître Capello

What about _En rentrant chez lui, il pensa à ce que son père lui dirait quand il le verrait à la maison_? (Here who sees whom is not important since they will see each other…)

*Note:* When I first read _Il pensa à ce que son père lui dirait quand il rentrerait à la maison_, I understood that it was the father that would come home…


----------



## Diddlina

Maître Capello said:


> What about _En rentrant chez lui, il pensa à ce que son père lui dirait quand il le verrait à la maison_? (Here who sees whom is not important since they will see each other…)
> 
> *Note:* When I first read _Il pensa à ce que son père lui dirait quand il rentrerait à la maison_, I understood that it was the father that would come home…



Ok, how about if I just eliminate that part and say it like this:

*Il pensait à ce que son père dirait quand il le/lui? montrerait les carnets.

*Meaning: He thought about what his father would say when he showed him his grades. Or sth like that.

Does that work?


----------



## Harmione

OUi, c'est *quand il lui montrerait,* c'est juste


----------



## Diddlina

Harmione said:


> OUi, c'est *quand il lui montrerait,* c'est juste



Thanks


----------

