# sur l'avoir et sur le décompte de



## Icetrance

Bonjour tout le monde,

Y a-t-il quelqu'un parmi vous qui en saurait le sens?

Voici le contexte:

"L?Entrepreneur a prévu dans son offre la présence de son / ses représentant (s) aux réunions hebdomadaires de chantier. Chaque absence non justifiée sera sanctionnée par une retenue de 500 ? sur l?avoir et sur le décompte de 
l?Entrepreneur. "

On retient 500 euros sur ???? et sur ???? de l'Entrepreneur. 

l'avoir = assets?

le décompte = ???? 

Aucune idée franchement.

Auriez-vous une proposition pour moi?
Merci d'avance


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## polaire

Icetrance said:
			
		

> Bonjour tout le monde,
> 
> Y a-t-il quelqu'un parmi vous qui en saurait le sens?
> 
> Voici le contexte:
> 
> "L?Entrepreneur a prévu dans son offre la présence de son / ses représentant (s) aux réunions hebdomadaires de chantier. Chaque absence non justifiée sera sanctionnée par une retenue de 500 ? sur l?avoir et sur le décompte de
> l?Entrepreneur. "
> 
> On retient 500 euros sur ???? et sur ???? de l'Entrepreneur.
> 
> l'avoir = assets?
> 
> le décompte = ????
> 
> Aucune idée franchement.
> 
> Auriez-vous une proposition pour moi?
> Merci d'avance



*Guess:

*"L?Entrepreneur a prévu dans son offre la présence de son / ses représentant (s) aux réunions hebdomadaires de chantier. Chaque absence non justifiée sera sanctionnée par une retenue de 500 ? sur l?avoir et sur le décompte de 
l?Entrepreneur. "
*
The Entrepreneur has been informed that his or his representatives' presence is required at weekly meetings at the construction site.  Each non-justified absence shall be sanctioned by the deduction of 500 __ from the Entrepreneur's security deposit.*


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## Icetrance

Thanks, polaire! That's a very good guess, but I am still not sure that is right.  I even have French natives stuck on this one.  LOL.

Also, I wanted to say that the rest of you translation was very nice.
Bravo!


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## polaire

Icetrance said:
			
		

> Thanks, polaire! That's a very good guess, but I am still not sure that is right.  I even have French natives stuck on this one.  LOL.
> 
> Also, I wanted to say that the rest of you translation was very nice.
> Bravo!



Thank you, Icetrance.  Wish I could have been of more help. 

Polaire


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## texasweed

polaire said:
			
		

> *Guess:*
> *The Entrepreneur has been informed that his or his representatives' presence is required at weekly meetings at the construction site. Each non-justified absence shall be sanctioned by the deduction of 500 __ from the Entrepreneur's security deposit.*


What about :
In his proposal, the contractor made provisions for...

Isn't it *on* the construction site, polaire?
I'd say "*Any and all*" for "Each".


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## carolineR

Un détail : je pense qu'il n'y a pas que sur le "security deposit"(=avoir) que les 500 € risquent d'être déduits en cas d'absence mais aussi sur les sommes qui resteront à payer à l'entreprise lorsque l'avoir aura été épuisé.


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## edwingill

*The Entrepreneur has been informed that his or his representatives' presence is required at weekly meetings at the construction site. Each unjustified absence shall be liable  to a deduction of 500 __ from the Entrepreneur's security deposit.*


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## texasweed

How did you 2 manage to translate "a prévu dans son offre" into "has been informed"


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## edwingill

I didn't. I inadvertently copied the 2 sentences, instead of the one beginning with Each


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## polaire

texasweed said:
			
		

> How did you 2 manage to translate "a prévu dans son offre" into "has been informed"



I thought that the best translation of "prevenir" in a legal context was "to inform."

You wouldn't usually say the other party has been "warned" or even "notified."


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## polaire

texasweed said:
			
		

> What about :
> In his proposal, the contractor made provisions for...
> 
> Isn't it *on* the construction site, polaire?
> I'd say "*Any and all*" for "Each".


Well, if I had to edit it, I'd use "any," not "any and all."  I hate unnecessary legalese.  I guess it might depend on whether you think a breach is likely, in which case you might want to go with "each."    "Any" is a good choice, though.


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## Icetrance

Hi Polaire,

You are indeed correct! "L'avoir" is indeed the "security deposit".  A specialized dictionary confirms it. Excellent! 

I just don't know how to translate "décompte".  The best definition I have is "déduction faite sur le solde d'un compte". 

You can't take money out of that.  LOL.

I think "décompte" is maybe the account balance, implying that money will be deducted from it. Hence, the "dé"
If they take money out of the security deposit, they will deduct that amount from their account balance (money owed). 

I think that is the meaining. But, I am still not sure.


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## polaire

Icetrance said:
			
		

> Hi Polaire,
> 
> You are indeed correct! "L'avoir" is indeed the "security deposit".  A specialized dictionary confirms it. Excellent!
> 
> *Yay!  Good guess on my part. *
> 
> I just don't know how to translate "décompte".  The best definition I have is "déduction faite sur le solde d'un compte".
> 
> You can't take money out of that.  LOL.
> 
> I think "décompte" is maybe the account balance, implying that money will be deducted from it.
> *
> That's what it sounds like.*
> 
> Hence, the "dé"
> If they take money out of the security deposit, they will deduct that amount from their account balance (money owed).
> 
> I think that is the meaining. But, I am still not sure.


*It's very specialized language.  Well, it seems like you're getting there. *


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## Icetrance

Yes, polaire, it's very specialized language.  It's driving me crazy.

I know believe that "le décompte" is referring to "debit account". I believe, as carolineR, that once all the security deposit money is exhausted, money will be taken out of their debit account to satisfy the penalty fees. 

I now believe that the translation should read omething on the lines of:

deduct 500 euros from the building contractor's  security deposit and debit account (if need be).     

The French is not clear at all. It should read "et , s'il y a lieu, le décompte de..." 
By the way, "prévenir" has nothing to do with "informing" in legalese. It simply means "to stipulate" (the building contractor has stipulated/stipulates in the bid that...). At any rate,  I thought your translation was nice in general, polaire. You did make an error with your translation of  "prévenir" as well as "entrepreneur", which is a building contractor in this context.  Also, "offre" is "bid" in American English. That was left out. But, the translation was decent for a first draft. You have to keep in mind that this is very specialized language here. Even the most skilled translators struggle with legalese. I do it all the time.  I love it, but I always end up with a migraine headache at the end of the translation.  

Thank you so much, polaire. Sorry for discrediting you.  There is no doubt we are talking about a security deposit. 

Kudoz points go to polaire!


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## polaire

Icetrance said:
			
		

> Yes, polaire, it's very specialized language.  It's driving me crazy.
> 
> I know believe that "le décompte" is referring to "debit account". I believe, as carolineR, that once all the security deposit money is exhausted, money will be taken out of their debit account to satisfy the penalty fees.
> 
> I now believe that the translation should read omething on the lines of:
> 
> deduct 500 euros from the building contractor's  security deposit and debit account (if need be).
> 
> The French is not clear at all. It should read "et , s'il y a lieu, le décompte de..."
> By the way, "prévenir" has nothing to do with "informing" in legalese.
> 
> *Thanks.  I was guessing.  Still, I think that in an AE contract the phrase  would be something like "The Contractor  acknowledges that" -- not that "stipulate" isn't used in American law -- but "stipulate" is more of a courtroom term:  "Your Honor, the defense stipulates that the defendant did speak to so-and-so at thus-and-such a time..."  "Plaintiff stipulates that paragraph A(1)e is a notice provision. . . ."
> *
> 
> It simply means "to stipulate" (the building contractor has stipulated/stipulates in the bid that...). At any rate,  I thought your translation was nice in general, polaire. You did make an error with your translation of  "prévenir" as well as "entrepreneur", which is a building contractor in this context.  Also, "offre" is "bid" in American English. That was left out. But, the translation was decent for a first draft. You have to keep in mind that this is very specialized language here. Even the most skilled translators struggle with legalese.
> 
> *Definitely.  A lawyer friend of mine asked me if I happened to know the meaning of a particular term, but I had no real idea and he had to wait to speak to his European counsel because one had to understand the legal context.  I tried looking at some online dictionaries, but it would have taken forever and I still might have been wrong.
> 
> What people don't always understand is that law is very technical, even for practitioners from the same country; terms don't always mean the same thing across areas of expertise and some concepts make no sense outside of a particular field.
> 
> The only way to feel completely confident about a translation like that is to talk to a lawyer in the field who is familiar with the customs and practices of a particular industry.  Well-drafted contracts define terms with some care; badly drafted ones don't.  Well-drafted agreements are more expensive. (Surprise surprise.)
> *
> I do it all the time.  I love it, but I always end up with a migraine headache at the end of the translation.
> 
> Thank you so much, polaire. Sorry for discrediting you.  There is no doubt we are talking about a security deposit.
> 
> Kudoz points go to polaire!


*I don't have any vanity about this because I was just guessing.  Glad to help.*


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## Icetrance

Thanks for your comments.

I'm not trying to disagree with you for the sake of disagreeing, but I don't think I'd translate "a prévu" by "ackowledges".  It means to make a provision for/stipulates. The translation has to remain faithful to that meaning. You can't be "creative" in legalese. I learned that the hard way.


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## polaire

Icetrance said:
			
		

> Thanks for your comments.
> 
> I'm not trying to disagree with you for the sake of disagreeing, but I don't think I'd translate "a prévu" by "ackowledges".  It means to make a provision for/stipulates. *The translation has to remain faithful to that meaning. You can't be "creative" in legalese. *I learned that the hard way.



Oh, I know.


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## Icetrance

Could it be then that "le décompte" means something on the lines of "debit account" in English?

After all the money from the security deposit is exhausted, then money may be taken from the building contractor's debit account?

Merci d'avance


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## Icetrance

I would appreciate some more suggestions for potential translations of the term "le décompte." 

Merci d'avance


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## texasweed

cash account?  margin account?  <sigh>


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## Icetrance

Thanks, texasweed for your translation/input.  But, I'm just not sure that is correct. It's a good guess, nonetheless. 

I have to say that "l'avoir" is definitely the "security deposit." 

However, when all the money is taken from the security deposit, money may be withdrawn from "le décompte."   This has to an account of some sort from which money can be deducted/withdrawn.  

Any more suggestions would be greatly appreciated.


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## texasweed

I'm sorry to see this is an unresolved issue - so far. I have searched through ALL bilingual Canadian Websites, Google "décompte"+english, etc. and none of the translations applied to your case. "account types" returned many proposals but I was not quite satisfied with any of them. 

I have the feeling your deadline is soon and I'm as frustrated as you are with this. Best I can do is bring it back to front page by posting stupid empty messages.  (I'll PM ChiMike though.)

ANYONE ?


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## Francis Nugent Dixon

For "décompte", DELMAS suggests "tally" or "detailed account":


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## carolineR

It finally dawned on me *le décompte* was not the term we generally use in that specific case :  here  it is simply *le solde à payer* = ce qui reste au client à payer au fur et à mesure que les différentes factures présentées par l'entreprise sont réglées par le client. Now your turn : how do you say le solde à payer ? the outstanding balance ?


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## texasweed

carolineR said:
			
		

> Now your turn : how do you say le solde à payer ? the outstanding balance ?


*balance due*, *outstanding balance*, mais aussi : balance payable, loans repayments...


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## texasweed

Courtesy of ChiMike  

The (General) Contractor provided in his bid (offer) [by which he obtained the construction contract] that his representative(s) would be present at the weekly meetings at the construction site. Each unjustified absence will be penalized by withholding of 500 Euros against the credit and balance [of progress payments] owing to the Contractor.

le doit et l'avoir: debit and credit


How I love to see tough ones resolved! Yehaw!


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## Icetrance

I am not sure I understand CarlolineR's translation.

500 euros is withheld on the building contractor's cash security deposit as well  his outstanding balance?

Why would a  deduction from his outstanding balance be considered a penalty. That wouldn't make sense. 

I think "décompte" seems to be a deduction on money owed to the building contractor by the customer.

I'm not sure how to phrase that in accounting/banking terms.


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## Grunt

Quote:
Originally Posted by *texasweed*
_How did you 2 manage to translate "a prévu dans son offre" into "has been informed"  _




			
				polaire said:
			
		

> I thought that the best translation of "prevenir" in a legal context was "to inform."
> 
> You wouldn't usually say the other party has been "warned" or even "notified."


 
There's a mistake here : "prévu" comes from "prévoir" not "prévenir"


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## carolineR

Icetrance said:
			
		

> I think "décompte" seems to be a deduction on money owed to the building contractor by the customer.


*IT IS * a deduction on money owed to the building contractor by the customer !  
This is what I was trying to say


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## Pur Esprit

Hem... Basically, "décompte" means : "details", "final breakdown of a due or paid amount". I guess that the key point here is "final". I do believe that "decompte" refers to something payed at the *closing* of the operation. And "avoir" could refer to something payed *upfront* (but really, this is not the regular meaning of "avoir" !).


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## Tresley

Icetrance said:
			
		

> "L'Entrepreneur a prévu dans son offre la présence de son / ses représentant (s) aux réunions hebdomadaires de chantier. Chaque absence non justifiée sera sanctionnée par une retenue de 500 € sur l'avoir et sur le décompte de l'Entrepreneur."


 
How does this sound?:

"In his bid, the contractor has made provision for his representative(s) to attend the weekly construction site meetings. Any unapproved absense will be liable to a 500 Euro penalty to be taken from amounts already paid or still owing to the contractor."

Translation notes:
Retenue = deduction, withholding (translated here as 'penalty' as that is the term usually used in these circumstances)
L'avoir = credit (amount already paid to the contractor)
Décompte = outstanding balance (amount still owing/due to the contractor)

I hope this helps.


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## carolineR

Tresley said:
			
		

> Any unapproved absense will be liable to a 500 Euro penalty to be taken from amounts already paid or still owing to the contractor."


I personally prefer security deposit for l'acompte simply because it is unrealistic to expect to recover money "already paid".
While "amounts still due to the contractor" seems perfect to me. This is what the "solde d'une facture" is.


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