# AE/BE I did/ I have done



## Thomas Tompion

I've just been told by someone that many Americans don't use the pluperfect much, and say *I did* where BE would insist on *I have done*.

*I put my case on the rack and was sitting down to read* - where in BE we would say *I had put my case on the rack and was sitting down to read. *

*I repaired the sink for you* - a plumber describing that he *has* (as opposed to *has not*) repaired the sink - rather than BE's *I have repaired the sink for you.*

Is this true? If so it might explain the difficulty experienced by some oriental people, who have learnt their English from Americans, in handling past tenses accurately in BE.


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## DearPrudence

Wow, I had just the same question but I didn't dare to ask it.
My question actually would have been:
Is it true that Americans never never use the present perfect? Or do they know this tense but use it less than in British English?

I hope I haven't offended anyone with this question.


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## Setwale_Charm

Shoot_Prescriptivist_Dogs said:


> "AE and I have done."
> 
> I don't understand what you and AE have done. Was that A.E. Housman and you who have done the doing of I know not what?
> 
> 
> Just precisely what do you mean by oriental people?
> 
> 
> Why is the sky blue?


 
AE is the most common abbreviation for American English.
Americans do use perfect tense but to a far lesser extent than us. For example, the classical example: I have just ..... (BE) JUst most often requires perfect tense in BE, not so in AE and they are infecting us with it!!!
  
Sometimes, they drop the "have" part and use the participle only. Oh my, to whom have we given life!!!
  
i


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## cuchuflete

In the many other threads that have addressed this topic, we seem to have
acknowledged that-

AE speakers do use it;
BE speakers use it more.

It is far from strange to find AE speakers saying that they have done something.


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## Tabac

cuchuflete said:


> In the many other threads that have addressed this topic, we seem to have
> acknowledged that-
> 
> AE speakers do use it;
> BE speakers use it more.
> 
> It is far from strange to find AE speakers saying that they have done something.


 *I have noticed more and more "educated" Americans using what I call a "double-woulda":  If I woulda known you were coming I woulda baked a cake -----acting as though the past perfect didn't exist.  It pains me to hear this.*


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## cuchuflete

Tabac said:


> *I have noticed more and more "educated" Americans using what I call a "double-woulda":  If I woulda known you were coming I woulda baked a cake -----acting as though the past perfect didn't exist.  It pains me to hear this.*



I suggest that this use or abuse of the conditional deserves its own thread.


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## JamesM

cuchuflete said:


> In the many other threads that have addressed this topic, we seem to have
> acknowledged that-
> 
> AE speakers do use it;
> BE speakers use it more.
> 
> It is far from strange to find AE speakers saying that they have done something.


 
I think this is a very fair summary.  The only I would add is that we do sometimes use "I repaired" where BE users would not, as in the example Thomas Tompion gave.


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## cuchuflete

I would also ask Thomas to clarify which perfect form he wishes to discuss, as the first post of this thread
appears to include both past and present perfect tenses.  That may be perfectly confusing to non-natives and
natives alike.




> *I had put my case on the rack and was sitting down to read. *
> 
> 
> *I have repaired the sink for you.*


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## Thomas Tompion

cuchuflete said:


> I would also ask Thomas to clarify which perfect form he wishes to discuss, as the first post of this thread
> appears to include both past and present perfect tenses. That may be perfectly confusing to non-natives and
> natives alike.


Forgive me cuchu.

Unusual (to BE ears and eyes) AE use of past tenses.

In particular:

1. Reluctance to use the pluperfect (*my first example*)

2. Substitution of the simple past (I repaired) for the perfect (I have repaired),  (*my second example*).


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## cuchuflete

It is absolutely normal and frequent in AE to ask someone 'What have you been doing?'
This is distinct from "What did you do?" or even "What have you done?", both of which are also 
common, and vary according to circumstances.

While the BE perception is partially correct, in that AE speakers will sometimes use the simple past where
a BE speaker will prefer a perfect tense, the notion that use of 'have' and 'had' plus participle is infrequent in
AE is simply not accurate.

I am having trouble identifying the circumstances which would lead me or another AE speaker to select one tense over the other.  I am more apt to ask someone if they have been swimming in the river than if they did go swimming, but will alternate,
without any particular motive, between-

Have you been to the store?  and
Did you go to the store?

If anyone, BE or AE speaker, can identify a pattern, I would be grateful.


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## Thomas Tompion

cuchuflete said:


> While the BE perception is partially correct, in that AE speakers will sometimes use the simple past where
> a BE speaker will prefer a perfect tense, the notion that use of 'have' and 'had' plus participle is infrequent in
> AE is simply not accurate.


 
Thank you for this, and what about the first example?


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## panjandrum

cuchuflete said:


> Have you been to the store? and
> Did you go to the store?
> 
> If anyone, BE or AE speaker, can identify a pattern, I would be grateful.


I can, I can, I can.
I recognise both of these and their essential difference.

Scenario (1)
Work, work, work, work.
Buy something sensible, like milk, on the way home.
Arrive home.
MrsP asks the BE equivalent of "Have you been to the store?"
She is slightly surprised and wonders what alien has possessed me so that I thought to stop on the way home to buy milk.

Scenario (2)
Work, work.
Phone call from MrsP mid-afternoon.
Instruction to purchase some absolutely vital commodity on the way home, like milk.
Work, work.
Arrive home from work.
MrsP asks the BE equivalent of "Did you go to the store?"
Oh @~$%^£*!!
Don red underpants and fly off to buy milk.


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## Outsider

Thomas Tompion said:


> *I put my case on the rack and was sitting down to read* - where in BE we would say *I had put my case on the rack and was sitting down to read. *


I am curious about this example as well. I have never noticed any English speaker using the the former sentence with the same sense as the latter...


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## cuchuflete

You're on to something Panj.  When my boys were young, and would go dashing through the house on the
way out to play, if I were in a calm mood, I would have asked, "Have you done your homework?"
When it was nearly bedtime, and one or both would go charging towards a television or a bowl of ice cream big enough to feed a regiment, I would pointedly ask, "Did you finish your homework?"


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## cuchuflete

Outsider said:


> I am curious about this example as well. I have never noticed any English speaker using the the former sentence with the same sense as the latter...



I agree Outsider.  The meanings are different.


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## yermon

I put my case on the rack, and was sitting down to read,
I put my toast on the rack, and lamented it once was bread.
I took the pipes from my pack and lamented the long lost dead.
I fixed the sink out the back, and it's time that we all went to bed.


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## srta chicken

I think in AE the present perfect reflects the very recent past, whereas the preterit refers to an undetermined past.

Regarding
*I put my case on the rack and was sitting down to read* - 

As a speaker of AE, this sounds funny to me as a stand-alone sentence.  "I put my case on the rack and sat down to read."  sounds better.

*I had put my case on the rack and was sitting down to read. *
To me, this sentence also sounds incomplete.  It needs "when":  I had put my case on the rack and was sitting down to read when suddenly the bus came to a screeching halt.  

Where I'm from, the "had" is used to refer to an action further in the past than the other verb(s) in the sentence.  In other words, putting the case on the rack happened in a time period prior to sitting down to read.


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## srta chicken

Yes, it is San Andreas' fault.  I think he was the one who put mayonaise on the menu.  But nowaday(s) only transfers from the Midwest or the East eat the mayonnaise; as Californians tend to be either vegans or cholesterol-wary, they eschew it.  (Excuse me, it's allergy season.)  Those Midwesterners and even some Easterners are sprouting up all over the place.  Life just isn't what it used to be.


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## Orange Blossom

srta chicken said:


> *I put my case on the rack and was sitting down to read* -
> 
> As a speaker of AE, this sounds funny to me as a stand-alone sentence.  "I put my case on the rack and sat down to read."  sounds better.


This sentence seems incomplete to me as well.  I want to put a "when" after the read just as I do if the first clause is in past perfect.

_I put my case on the rack and was sitting down to read when the bus took off with a roar.

_


> Where I'm from, the "had" is used to refer to an action further in the past than the other verb(s) in the sentence.


Aye, and here are some other sample sentences:

I had taken him for a fool but found I was wrong. Now I know he's a very wise man.

Note: In similar constructions, I do hear people use the simple past instead of the past perfect in the first clause.

I took him for a foo*l* but found I was wrong.  Now I know he's a very wise man.
------------
I put the basket, which my mother had packed, on the table and spread out its contents so we could eat.

Hmm.  I think I hear folks using simple past instead of past perfect in constructions such as these also.

Come to think of it, I have had some mighty struggles getting many of my native English-speaking students to understand when and how to use the past perfect.  It seems it doesn't come naturally to many of them. Is it a construction we have consigned mostly to writing I wonder?  Are there differences in usage correlated to socio-economic status? 

Orange Blossom


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## cheshire

cuchuflete said:


> You're on to something Panj. When my boys were young, and would go dashing through the house on the
> way out to play, if I were in a calm mood, I would have asked, "Have you done your homework?"
> When it was nearly bedtime, and one or both would go charging towards a television or a bowl of ice cream big enough to feed a regiment, I would pointedly ask, "Did you finish your homework?"


Thanks for providing a vivid set of examples, Panjy and cuchu, but how to differentiate them?


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## Thomas Tompion

cuchuflete said:


> You're on to something Panj. When my boys were young, and would go dashing through the house on the
> way out to play, if I were in a calm mood, I would have asked, "Have you done your homework?"
> When it was nearly bedtime, and one or both would go charging towards a television or a bowl of ice cream big enough to feed a regiment, I would pointedly ask, "Did you finish your homework?"


But Cuchu, I fear you've sent people on a false errand by turning it into a question.
*Did you buy the milk?* is the interrogative form of both *I did buy the milk* and *I bought the milk*, yet we are only concerned here with *I bought the milk*: with the difference between *I bought the milk* and this *I have bought the milk* which AE users aren't said to employ much.
Are you sure that Panj's point isn't about the emphatic past (*I did buy the milk)* rather than the simple past (*I bought the milk*)?  I'm not.


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## Thomas Tompion

Orange Blossom said:


> I put the basket, which my mother had packed, on the table and spread out its contents so we could eat.
> 
> Hmm. I think I hear folks using simple past instead of past perfect in constructions such as these also.
> 
> Come to think of it, I have had some mighty struggles getting many of my native English-speaking students to understand when and how to use the past perfect. It seems it doesn't come naturally to many of them. Is it a construction we have consigned mostly to writing I wonder? Are there differences in usage correlated to socio-economic status?
> 
> Orange Blossom


This is very interesting and helpful Orange Blossom, thank you.


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## dtvexer

Is it true that BE speakers use language as a mechanism to identify those with smaller bank accounts?  This might be effective for telemarketers, so like, you know, they could tell if it is the owner of the estate or the downstairs maid who has answered the telephone.  

I really like the explanations that Orange Bossom gave.  Nice typo too.  



> I took him for a fook but found I was wrong. Now I know he's a very wise man.
> ------------



So would a proper BE speaker say afterwards that she had taken him for a fook?  Is that with mayonnaise?


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## Thomas Tompion

cheshire said:


> Thanks for providing a vivid set of examples, Panjy and cuchu, but how to differentiate them?


 
Do you have difficulty differentiating them, Cheshire?


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## Orange Blossom

I was just talking with my dad about what he has noticed regarding the use of the past perfect in speech.  He said that he hasn't heard it much in speech, and when he does it sounds very formal.

Orange Blossom


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## Thomas Tompion

Orange Blossom said:


> I was just talking with my dad about what he has noticed regarding the use of the past perfect in speech. He said that he hasn't heard it much in speech, and when he does it sounds very formal.
> 
> Orange Blossom


Many thanks for this, OB.  One of the interesting things about your post for me is its opening words: in BE we would say *I have just been talking...*


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## panjandrum

This is probably idle speculation, but something just struck me about the statement/ question pairs.

I have bought the milk. Have you bought the milk?

I did buy the milk.  Did you buy the milk?

I bought the milk.  Bought you the milk?

The third question form matches the third statement form - but it is not current English.  It sounds familiar, though, and I wonder is it a form that was used in the past.  Unfortunately I haven't time to check it out now - but I leave it there in case anyone has a comment.


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## cailin

Yes but remember we are not all BE.  

In UK they use sentinces such as 
I was sat over there.
Where here in the green isle we would say
I was sitting there


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## Orange Blossom

cailin said:


> In UK they use sentinces such as
> I was sat over there.



If I saw this sentence:  _I was sat over there_. I would think the speaker was physically placed in that location by someone else.  "Was sat" to me is a passive construction.
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My dad will sometimes use this construction when he wants to emphasize the freshness of some food he cooked:

I just now took the pie out of the oven.

I'm going to pay a bit more attention and see if he actually does use the "I have taken" and similar constructions as he claims. 

Orange Blossom


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## winklepicker

cailin said:


> I was sat over there.


Not if they're educated, they don't, cailin. This is definitely non-standard, and sounds suspiciously like Estuarial to me. Or Beckham-speak.



> would a proper BE speaker say afterwards that she had taken him for a fook


No - only an improper one. And one born north of the Watford gap.


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## cheshire

panjandrum said:


> I can, I can, I can.
> I recognise both of these and their essential difference.
> 
> Scenario (1)
> Work, work, work, work.
> Buy something sensible, like milk, on the way home.
> Arrive home.
> MrsP asks the BE equivalent of "*Have you been to the store*?"
> She is slightly surprised and wonders what alien has possessed me so that I thought to stop on the way home to buy milk.
> 
> Scenario (2)
> Work, work.
> Phone call from MrsP mid-afternoon.
> Instruction to purchase some absolutely vital commodity on the way home, like milk.
> Work, work.
> Arrive home from work.
> MrsP asks the BE equivalent of "*Did you go to the store*?"
> Oh @~$%^£*!!
> Don red underpants and fly off to buy milk.


I would say when MrsP said "Have you been..." the focus is not on *the past act* of you having bought food, but *you* having done unusual thing. In other words, the perfect focuses on YOU, YOU being YOU right now in relation to your past acts. The past focuses in turn on YOUR PAST ACT.

I'm not sure though, if I'm right.


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## cheshire

cuchuflete said:


> You're on to something Panj. When my boys were young, and would go dashing through the house on the
> way out to play, if I were in a calm mood, I would have asked, "*Have you done* your homework?"
> When it was nearly bedtime, and one or both would go charging towards a television or a bowl of ice cream big enough to feed a regiment, I would pointedly ask, "*Did you finish* your homework?"


Is my petit theory viable here as well? I don't think so...


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## winklepicker

Hm. How about this?

Have you been to the shop? - neutral
Have you done your homework?
Did you go to the shop? - seeking confirmation of something expected
Did you do your homework?
_Did_ you go to the shop? - seeking confirmation / nagging
_Did _you do your homework?


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## cheshire

I can't make head or tail of how it can be that you can make a meaning of "nagging" just by changing the tense.


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## LV4-26

Coming back to the "I've repaired the sink" example, I'd like to know your reactions to the following.

Context : you've just arrived home and can't find the key to your flat.

I've always assumed that a Brit would say
_I've lost my key._
while an American (or most Americans? a majority of Americans?) would say :
_I lost my key.


_
Am I right in that presumption?


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## Thomas Tompion

panjandrum said:


> This is probably idle speculation, but something just struck me about the statement/ question pairs.
> 
> I have bought the milk. Have you bought the milk?
> 
> I did buy the milk. Did you buy the milk?
> 
> I bought the milk. Bought you the milk?
> 
> The third question form matches the third statement form - but it is not current English. It sounds familiar, though, and I wonder is it a form that was used in the past. Unfortunately I haven't time to check it out now - but I leave it there in case anyone has a comment.


 
I've found two uses of it. One in the negative from the Holy land of Walsingham (16th-century probably)

As you came from the holy land 
Of Walsingham, 
*Met you not* with my true love 
By the way as you came? 

And this (below) from Sir Walter Scott's Woodstock. This might be a Scottish use, or a deliberate archaism.


"Where have you been?" he said--"What has detained you?--Here are Bletson and the brute Desborough terrified out of their lives, and Harrison raving mad, because the devil will not be civil enough to rise to fight him in single _duello_."

"*Saw or heard you nothing* as you came along?" said Everard.


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## winklepicker

cheshire said:


> I can't make head or tail of how it can be that you can make a meaning of "nagging" just by changing the tense.


Sorry, my feline friend! I'd hate to see your smile disappear. I think it's the emphasis on DID - which I tried to communicate by the italics. That may not have come across - apologies. It might be a BE thing too.

*Did *you do your homework? _is different from_ Did you *do* your homework?


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## cheshire

cuchuflete said:


> You're on to something Panj. When my boys were young, and would go dashing through the house on the
> way out to play, if I were in a calm mood, I would have asked, "*Have* you done your homework?"
> When it was nearly bedtime, and one or both would go charging towards a television or a bowl of ice cream big enough to feed a regiment, I would pointedly ask, "*Did* you finish your homework?"


I've been thinking of the reason why the simpel past can add "nagging tone" to a sentence. It's just the same reason as "already" as in "Come here already!" or "went" in "It's time you went to bed." The speaker assumes that"you" should have finished "your" homework earlier in the past. His assumption pushes the tense back to the past.


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## Thomas Tompion

winklepicker said:


> *Did *you do your homework? _is different from_ Did you *do* your homework?


Do you not hear the same nagging tone in *have you done your homework*, Master Winklepicker?


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## JamesM

LV4-26 said:


> Coming back to the "I've repaired the sink" example, I'd like to know your reactions to the following.
> 
> Context : you've just arrived home and can't find the key to your flat.
> 
> I've always assumed that a Brit would say
> _I've lost my key._
> while an American (or most Americans? a majority of Americans?) would say :
> _I lost my key._


 
It depends on the context, I think.

(someone is searching around the room)
"What are you doing?"
"I'm looking for my keys.  I've lost them. Can you help?"

(same person arrives late for work)
"Why are you late?"
"I lost my keys."


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## cuchuflete

After at least twelve seconds of serious contemplation, I have been unable to come up with a consistent pattern
of usage.  That said, I believe the simple past, for me at least, highlights a question or statement about an action.  

Have you seen the latest film by Algernon Q. Gore?   _Casual inquiry.
_Did you go to the concert last night?  _Specific inquiry about a particular action.  

_Either of these could be answered by a yes or a no, so I'm still having trouble pinning down the
distinction that would lead me to use one form or the other.  

JamesM's post also suggests a temporal element. (Sorry if that's not what you meant!)
The perfect form is less focused on a specific moment, and may be applied to a more extended time range.

Would a BE speaker reply to this with the simple past or the present perfect or something else?

Constable: Did you kill that otter?

Suspect: I did not.
Suspect: I have not killed that otter.
Suspect: ______________________


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## Thomas Tompion

cuchuflete said:


> Would a BE speaker reply to this with the simple past or the present perfect or something else?
> 
> Constable: Did you kill that otter?
> 
> Suspect: I did not.
> Suspect: I have not killed that otter.
> Suspect: ______________________


If we assume he didn't kill the otter, I think he'd say: *no, I didn't*.  *Have you killed that otter?* would be a possible question if you wanted to put the stress on the *killing* as opposed to *who did* the killing?

Did you kill that otter? - was it *you* who killed the otter?
Have you killed that otter? - have you *killed* it as opposed to not killing it, or just badly frightening it, for instance.


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## LV4-26

Since we seem to have taken the issue to a more general perspective (as opposed to the AE/BE difference), here is what I was taught.*

The present perfect is a tense which is strongly related to what is called "aspect" (the other two categories being "time" and "tense"). It is used in reference to a past action having a logical/operational link to the present.

Here's how I apply it to a few sentences.

_I have lost my key_ --> therefore, I can't open the door (in the context I gave)

Same sentence in one of JamesM's suggested contexts :
_I've lost my keys_ --> I need to find them.

_Have you killed the otte_r --> are you the culprit?

_I haven't had my breakfast yet_---> I'm yet to have it.

I was also taught that the presence of any circumstancial complement imposes the use of the past. As in Cuchu's example :
_Did you go the concert *last night*_?
or
_I had my breakfast *an hour ago.*_*
*The reason is that mentionning a time (or a location? or whichever circumstancial?) element sort of cuts the action from the present, breaks the link with the present.
Although I'm not sure it always work efficiently, I tend to think of the past as referring to what happened and of the present perfect as describing what the current situation is (or possibly as a mixture of both).

EDIT : * For French learners of English, a strong emphasis is put on this matter as we have a tense which has exactly the same morphology as the English present perfect (auxiliary have + pp) but has a different value altogether (casual substitute for the past), thus leading to numerous misuses by beginners.


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## panjandrum

cuchuflete said:


> [...]Would a BE speaker reply to this with the simple past or the present perfect or something else?
> 
> Constable: Did you kill that otter?
> 
> Suspect: I did not.
> Suspect: I have not killed that otter.
> Suspect: ______________________


This speaker would reply, "No."
If forced to elaborate, "No, I didn't."

Of course the question should have been "Killed you that otter?"  
Thanks to Thomas Tompion's inspiration and reminder:





Thomas Tompion said:


> I've found two uses of it. One in the negative from the Holy land of Walsingham (16th-century probably)
> 
> As you came from the holy land
> Of Walsingham,
> *Met you not* with my true love
> By the way as you came?
> 
> And this (below) from Sir Walter Scott's Woodstock. This might be a Scottish use, or a deliberate archaism.
> 
> "Where have you been?" he said--"What has detained you?--Here are Bletson and the brute Desborough terrified out of their lives, and Harrison raving mad, because the devil will not be civil enough to rise to fight him in single _duello_."
> 
> "*Saw or heard you nothing* as you came along?" said Everard.


I had a look for similar forms and sure enough, Will Shakespeare used this a great deal:
Signior Gremio, came you from the church?

_The Taming of the Shrew, III:ii_
Saw you the field? came you from Shrewsbury?
_Henry IV, Part II, I:i_
How now, Captain Fluellen! come you from the bridge? 
_Henry V, III:vi_

Enough, I expect.
There are numerous examples - none, I have to say, of "bought you the milk?" or of the even more unforgettable, "Bought you the fishcakes, dear?"


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## JamesM

> The reason is that mentionning a time (or a location? or whichever circumstancial?) element sort of cuts the action from the present, breaks the link with the present.
> 
> 
> Although I'm not sure it always work efficiently, I tend to think of the past as referring to what happened and of the present perfect as describing what the current situation is (or possibly as a mixture of both).


 
Thanks for this explanation, LV4-26.  This makes a lot of sense.

In the original example, "I've repaired the sink" vs. "I repaired the sink", there is a difference to me in what I expect to happen after each statement.  

"I repaired/fixed the sink" is a completed action and means that the plumber doesn't expect to do anything else.  It says that he's done with the job.  The next thing I'd expect to hear is "I'm going now" or "I'll send you a bill" or "That'll be $235."  

"I've repaired/fixed the sink" could be followed by "now what do you want me to do?"  or ", but there's a problem with the hot water valve that really should be fixed, and  I can take care of it while I'm here."

"I repaired" is closed-off, completed, finalized.  "I've repaired" is a statement about what has happened that leaves it open for more to happen in the present.


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## I.C.

panjandrum said:


> I bought the milk. Bought you the milk?


Chaucer, Troilus and Criseyde, Book III, 44-48:

Caliope, thy vois be now present,
For now is nede; sestow not my destresse,
How I mot telle anon-right the gladnesse
Of Troilus, to Venus heryinge?

In contemporary German this structure exists.



winklepicker said:


> cailin said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was sat over there.
> 
> 
> 
> Not if they're educated, they don't, cailin. This is definitely non-standard, and sounds suspiciously like Estuarial to me.
Click to expand...

How about being seated in a restaurant?


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