# All Dialects: جي occupational suffix



## clevermizo

Does anyone know the origin of the -ji جي suffix for occupations (common in Lebanese Arabic, and maybe other Arabics)? It doesn't sound Arabic in origin, but, hey, maybe it is.

Some examples of this:

dukkaanji (store-keeper)
kundarji (shoe-maker)

Thanks.



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## Qcumber

This suffix was borrowed from Turkish.


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## clevermizo

Qcumber said:


> This suffix was borrowed from Turkish.




Cool, thanks. I figured it was Turkish or Persian or something.


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## Tariq_Ibn_zyad

Yes it's Turkish.

It's frequent in the Middle East and in Algeria.

I don't know about the Middle East,but in Algeria it's not only used for occupation,but can be used for habits,generally bad habits:

sukaarji= alcoholic
qmaarji= gambler


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## elroy

In Palestinian Arabic, we use all of the words mentioned.





clevermizo said:


> dukk*a*nji (store-keeper)





Tariq_Ibn_zyad said:


> suk*a*rji= alcoholic
> *2a*m*ma*rji= gambler


 This is how we pronounce these words in Palestinian Arabic.  The vowel in the syllable right before the suffix is short.

Other examples:
_khudarji_ - vegetable seller
_bosTaji_ - postman
_booyaji_ - painter (I think this whole word is Turkish, _booya _["paint"] also being a Turkish borrowing)


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## clevermizo

elroy said:


> The vowel in the syllable right before the suffix is short.



Yeah I think that vowel is short, or short*er* in Lebanese too, in anticipation of the cluster [-nj-]. I have a habit of transliterating it double as the word is dukkaan without the suffix. (Re: our conversations about writing words like 3am vs. 3amm.) Actually I wonder if that vowel (at least in Syrian/Lebanese) is _just as_ short as other short vowels, or is somehow slightly longer (as it is in stress position).

All of the above is very off-topic; I apologize. But I wanted to point out a possible inaccuracy with my previous transliteration.


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## elroy

clevermizo said:


> Yeah I think that vowel is short, or short*er* in Lebanese too, in anticipation of the cluster [-nj-].


 I would not consider that a cluster as the consonants belong to different syllables. I think in this case the shortening has to do with the addition of a suffix.


> Actually I wonder if that vowel (at least in Syrian/Lebanese) is _just as_ short as other short vowels, or is somehow slightly longer (as it is in stress position).


 In Palestinian Arabic, it's just as short as the vowels in _7ala2_, for example. Incidentally, isn't it _d*i*kkaan_ in Syrian and Lebanese?


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## clevermizo

elroy said:


> Incidentally, isn't it _d*i*kkaan_ in Syrian and Lebanese?


 
Yes, that's the other problem. In Syrian however, I _believe_ that it is dəkkaan (As Damascene has a schwa-type short vowel).


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## Tariq_Ibn_zyad

elroy said:


> In Palestinian Arabic, we use all of the words mentioned. This is how we pronounce these words in Palestinian Arabic.  The vowel in the syllable right before the suffix is short.
> 
> Other examples:
> _khudarji_ - vegetable seller
> _bosTaji_ - postman
> _booyaji_ - painter (I think this whole word is Turkish, _booya _["paint"] also being a Turkish borrowing)


Yes, "boya" is "paint" in Turkish.

Palestinian Arabic seems to have many "complete" Turkish borrowings right? Like "ooda=room" form example.
Can You think of any other in Palestinian?

In Algeria most Turkish borrowings have to do with administration:
shawsh,agha...etc

In Algiers you have the word "bashterzi"= taylor,
made of "bash"=head,chief(Turkish) and Arabic "tarz"
It's the other way round.


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## Qcumber

As regards vowel length, my impression is that the vowel of the suffix itself is not particularly long, and sounds like the /i/ in Italian or Spanish or French despite the use of yaa? 
*ي*
in the Arabic spelling.
For instance, if I compare saa3aatii 
*ساعاتي*
"watchmaker" (the standard term) and saa3aajii 
*ساعاجي*
"watchmaker" (a non-standard term I came across once), to me, the /i/ of the syllable -tii 
*تي*
is longer than the /i/ of the syllable -jii*جي* .


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## Abu Rashid

> Like "ooda=room" form example



That's strange I've only heard Egyptians use this word. The Palestinians I know all use the fus7a word غرفة.


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## WadiH

Abu Rashid said:


> That's strange I've only heard Egyptians use this word. The Palestinians I know all use the fus7a word غرفة.


 
IT's commonly used in Syria, too.


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## elroy

Abu Rashid said:


> That's strange I've only heard Egyptians use this word. The Palestinians I know all use the fus7a word غرفة.


 Both words are common in Palestinian Arabic.


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## clevermizo

Abu Rashid said:


> That's strange I've only heard Egyptians use this word. The Palestinians I know all use the fus7a word غرفة.



Common in Lebanese too. It's probably common all over the region.


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## clevermizo

Hey, check it out, a completely on-topic addition to this post! Is the plural to all these ـجي words always ـجيّة ? I've seen some this way; I just wanted to check to see if this plural formation was stable. (E.g.: خضرجي ج. خضرجية)

Thanks.


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## elroy

It seems to be.  At least I can't think of an exception.


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## Abu Rashid

This suffix is also added to the word mushkel(ah), which means problems or troubles, to produce mushkelji. The meaning is of course "troublemaker".

Alcoholic and Gambler have also been mentioned as other ways this suffix can be used, does anyone else know of any other terms using this suffix, which aren't strictly occupational?


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## Tariq_Ibn_zyad

Abu Rashid said:


> This suffix is also added to the word mushkel(ah), which means problems or troubles, to produce mushkelji. The meaning is of course "troublemaker".
> 
> Alcoholic and Gambler have also been mentioned as other ways this suffix can be used, does anyone else know of any other terms using this suffix, which aren't strictly occupational?



In Algeria there is:

demmarji= good thinker
khwanji= islamic activist


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## cherine

Abu Rashid said:


> This suffix is also added to the word mushkel(ah), which means problems or troubles, to produce mushkelji. The meaning is of course "troublemaker".


Never heard this one.


> Alcoholic and Gambler have also been mentioned as other ways this suffix can be used


An alcoholic, in Egypt, would be sokari or khamorgi (note we pronounce this suffix as "gi" not "ji")
But "gambler" is omarti (with a "ti" instead of "gi").


> does anyone else know of any other terms using this suffix, which aren't strictly occupational?


In Egypt, there's neswangi = womanizer, a guy chasing women, or having many "love" affairs.

I think there are other words, but can't remember any for the moment.


Tariq_Ibn_zyad said:


> In Algeria there is:
> demmarji= good thinker
> khwanji= islamic activist


We don't have "demmarji", but we sure have "ekhwangi". It refers to a person who belongs to or support الإخوان المسلمون "Muslims brotherhood" ("sure" because the movement was created in Egypt).
Needless to say it's a derogative term.

Yes, when this suffix جي is used with other than an occupational term, it generaly has a derogative connotation.


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## Abu Rashid

> Never heard this one.



Well it's certainly more well known, amongst internet-using arabs anyway, or at least more used, than the example you provided. Niswanji brings less than 400 results on google (You would spell it نسوانجي correct?). Mushkelji brings about 62,000. Perhaps it's just not well known or used in Egypt I guess.


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## elroy

Both "mashkalji" and "niswanji" are used in Palestinian Arabic - but note the pronunciation of the former. As far as I know, we do not use either of the ones mentioned by Tariq.

More examples from Palestinian Arabic:

_3aDalanji_ - muscular guy
_helamji_ - crook [The verb _heelam_ (present _biheelem_; masDar _heelame_) means "to deceive" or "to swindle".]
_3awanTaji_ - morally wayward, unprincipled guy
_maSla7ji _- opportunist
_makhrabji_ - someone prone to break or destroy things (usually a child)


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## WannaBFluent

How do you put them in the plural form? Do you have the two possibilities just like nisba ones?
_-jiyyiin _and -_jiyyuun _?


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## djara

Let me add a few Tunisian words:
عوّادجي 'awwadji (Oud player), درباكجي darbakji (darbouka player), قصعاجي Qas'aji (bowl maker, remains as a family name); دعاجي Douagi (Family name, one who says prayers?); بنكاجي bankaji (banker); كفتاجيkaftaji (minced fried vegetables as street food); شوهاجي shuhaji (one who easily flies off the handle and  loses his temper suddenly and unexpectedly.), مكتباجي maktbaji (Librarian/bookshop keeper), مكانجي makanji (in the old days, a tailor who used a sewing machine); قهواجي qahwaji (café keeper or waiter); طبرناجي tbarnaji (bar/taverna keeper)...

We also share some of the previously mentioned words such as: سكارجي، قمّارجي، خوانجي، بسطاجي

Other family names with the Turkish ji ending: شرباجي، باش طبجي، قرباجي، بسطانجي، دامرجي  (Sanhaji صنهاجي is not one of them as it relates to the Berber tribe Sanhaja)


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## WannaBFluent

@djara how do you put them in the plural ?


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## djara

WannaBFluent said:


> @djara how do you put them in the plural ?


عوّادجي pl. عوّادجية
خوانجي pl. خوانجية
بنكاجي pl. بنكاجية


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## Hemza

What about بلطجي I learnt from my Egyptian friend? Is it some Turkish borrowing+"ji/gi" suffix?

@djara I love this شوهاجي!


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## fenakhay

The only one I know we use in Morocco is فرناتشي (farnātshi) : oven owner, from فرن (furn) + تشي (tshi).


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## Hemza

fenakhay said:


> The only one I know we use in Morocco is فرناتشي (farnātshi) : oven owner, from فرن (furn) + تشي (tshi).


There must have been others but as many Turkish loanwords (دغري for instance) they tend to disappear


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## elroy

WannaBFluent said:


> How do you put them in the plural form?


 You must have missed these posts: 


clevermizo said:


> Is the plural to all these ـجي words always ـجيّة ?





elroy said:


> It seems to be. At least I can't think of an exception.


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## bamia

Hemza said:


> What about بلطجي I learnt from my Egyptian friend? Is it some Turkish borrowing+"ji/gi" suffix?



It could be from Turkish baltaci (axe wielder, halberd wielder).


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## analeeh

It's بلطة 'axe' plus ـجي, and as Bamia points out the same word is used in Turkish for 'axeman'. There are different explanations given online for the contemporary meaning of 'thug', which seems to be a separate Egyptian development.


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## djara

In a 19th century French-Osmanli Turkish dictionary, the word بلطاجي is spelt بالته جي and is defined as: formerly, imperial harem guards wielding axes


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## WadiH

elroy said:


> You must have missed these posts:



The exceptions are instances where the word has been 'lexicalized' (if that's the correct term?), i.e. people no longer recognize the جي as a suffix but as part of the 'root'.  For example, the word عربجي in Saudi Arabia now means something like 'thug' or 'ruffian'; no one remembers that it is etymologically عربة+جي, so the plural is always عرابجة.


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## cherine

Wadi Hanifa said:


> For example, the word عربجي in Saudi Arabia now means something like 'thug' or 'ruffian'; no one remembers that it is etymologically عربة+جي, so the plural is always عرابجة.


I agree with you that most people don't seem to think of the جي part as an independent suffix. We have the same word in EA with the same meaning, someone who is rude, ill-mannered and/or ruffian. But the plural is 3arbageyya عربجية. Do you have other words, where the plural is like فَعالجة rather than فَعْلَجِيّة?


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## elroy

Wadi Hanifa said:


> 'lexicalized'


 reanalyzed


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## WadiH

cherine said:


> I agree with you that most people don't seem to think of the جي part as an independent suffix. We have the same word in EA with the same meaning, someone who is rude, ill-mannered and/or ruffian. But the plural is 3arbageyya عربجية. Do you have other words, where the plural is like فَعالجة rather than فَعْلَجِيّة?



More like فعاللة.  I can't think of any other example.  I think this is the only word where people genuinely perceive the ج to be part of the root.



elroy said:


> reanalyzed



Ah yes that's the one. Thanks.


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## Schem

Wadi Hanifa said:


> More like فعاللة.  I can't think of any other example.  I think this is the only word where people genuinely perceive the ج to be part of the root.



What about gusmanji? I wonder how that one arose.


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## WadiH

Schem said:


> What about gusmanji? I wonder how that one arose.



No idea.  I think people came up with pejorative terms for different regions using different methods and they happened to settle on this particular form for Al-Gusseem (or rather someone thought it sounded good and it stuck).


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## Schem

Wadi Hanifa said:


> No idea.  I think people came up with pejorative terms for different regions using different methods and they happened to settle on this particular form for Al-Gusseem (or rather someone thought it sounded good and it stuck).



There's also the recent وطنجي to refer to rising jingoism.

An interesting thing about قصمنجي is that it seems to refer to and stereotype only the traditionally sedentary contingent of Gassim whereas قصيمي is still used as an inclusive/neutral term.


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## bamia

Schem said:


> An interesting thing about قصمنجي is that it seems to refer to and stereotype only the traditionally sedentary contingent of Gassim whereas قصيمي is still used as an inclusive/neutral term.



That is very interesting! Why is that?


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## Schem

bamia said:


> That is very interesting! Why is that?



Unlike many regions which had to accommodate a great amount of recently settled Bedouins, Gassim remained a hadhari-majority region and Gassimi culture was stereotyped accordingly.


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## bamia

Schem said:


> Unlike many regions which had to accommodate a great amount of recently settled Bedouins, Gassim remained a hadhari-majority region and Gassimi culture was stereotyped accordingly.



Hadhari culture is associated with the Turkish/Ottoman language? The reason I'm asking is because Misratans in Libya grew to be stereotyped as 'Turkish', 'Circassian', i.e. foreign in the rhetoric used by militias from other cities. Does a similar dynamic exist in Saudi Arabia ?


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## Schem

bamia said:


> Hadhari culture is associated with the Turkish/Ottoman language? The reason I'm asking is because Misratans in Libya grew to be stereotyped as 'Turkish', 'Circassian', i.e. foreign in the rhetoric used by militias from other cities. Does a similar dynamic exist in Saudi Arabia ?



I doubt it since the Ottomans left little influence in the Najd. They ruled only briefly through their suzerainty over Jabal Shammar and that was contested continuously by the House of Saud. Turks did establish a garrison in the town of Rass in western Gassim but it lasted less than a decade with the rise of the second Saudi state.

Sedentism in Gassim predates the Ottomans by centuries anyway. The region benefitted greatly from sitting on Wadi Rummah and from Abbasid-era Darb Zubaidah as a Hajj and trade route. The bedrock of the population consists of settled Arabs who practiced trade and agriculture whereas another section were slaves and those who trace their lineage through the Darb to associated regions (Iraq, Persia, and Transoxiana, etc) although this is rarely acknowledged and the two sections seldom intermarry despite sharing a common Arab "Gusmanji" culture.


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## WadiH

Schem said:


> There's also the recent وطنجي to refer to rising jingoism.



That's the typical way of making pejorative names for political ideologies (or sometimes to describe a purportedly 'vulgar' form of an ideology) (قومجي، لبرالجي، صحونجي، وطنجي, etc.).



bamia said:


> Hadhari culture is associated with the Turkish/Ottoman language? The reason I'm asking is because Misratans in Libya grew to be stereotyped as 'Turkish', 'Circassian', i.e. foreign in the rhetoric used by militias from other cities. Does a similar dynamic exist in Saudi Arabia ?



Not in Najd, but perhaps to some extent in the Hejaz.


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## Schem

Wadi Hanifa said:


> That's the typical way of making pejorative names for political ideologies (or sometimes to describe a purportedly 'vulgar' form of an ideology) (قومجي، لبرالجي، صحونجي، وطنجي, etc.)



There's also بزرنجي to mean pedophile/pederast.


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## akhooha

and what does  بزرن mean?


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## Schem

akhooha said:


> and what does  بزرن mean?



Like قِصْمان yielding قصمنجي, here it's بِزْران which is the plural of بَزِر "child". Long vowels are contracted in this pattern.


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