# Is it phony to try to speak a foreign language in a foreign accent?



## AnotherStephen

In Britain because it was once so class-based, people sometimes used to take elocution lessons, in order to sound through their accent as though they came from a different, better, posher background than they actually did. Nowadays I think most people in Britain would regard trying to change one's accent as a mistake. One speaks in a certain way and that is that. If I tried to change it then to some extent I am presenting a false face to the world. Up to a point I would no longer be being myself. That while not a crime, is a bit sad.

There is quite a lot of emphasis in foreign language learning in trying to develop an accent that sounds like the local natives. If you went to a foreign country to settle, and took a developed foreign accent with you; aren't you to some extent being a phony?


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## Tatzingo

AnotherStephen said:
			
		

> Nowadays I think most people in Britain would regard trying to change one's accent as a mistake. One speaks in a certain way and that is that.



Hi, my opinion is that accents aren't fixed as you may think. I believe that a person's accent can change when they move to different areas of the country and a person's accent is also influenced by the company that they keep.




			
				AnotherStephen said:
			
		

> There is quite a lot of emphasis in foreign language learning in trying to develop an accent that sounds like the local natives. If you went to a foreign country to settle, and took a developed foreign accent with you; aren't you to some extent being a phony?


Being phony? In order to learn a foreign language, you have to know how the words are pronounced and the 'best' pronunciation comes from native speakers. Effectively, you will be imitating a native speaker's accent... 
Having said that, a good accent is by no means an indication of fluency in that language and conversely, speaking a foreign language in a thick english accent doesn't mean that you're hopeless at it! 

Tatz.

(Edit - are instead of aren't)


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## maxiogee

There's a difference in 'developing' an accent within your own country and the 'total change' which AnotherStephen spoke of. They are noticeable. The 'total change' person never sounds quite right.

I think the same would hold for a foreign langauge. One should try to get as close to the intonation one's listeners will expect to hear, but not strive for verisimilitude - they'll spot it before you finish your first sentence and be derisive - why would a French person wish to sound like a native of Kerry when they speak English there - the locals will expect a French flavour to the foreigner's English.


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## AnotherStephen

> *Tatz:* Hi, my opinion is that accents aren't fixed as you may think. I believe that a person's accent can change when they move to different areas of the country and a person's accent is also influenced by the company that they keep.



That might be more an unconscious change though. One wouldn't set out to speak differently, necessarily.





> Being phony? In order to learn a foreign language, you have to know how the words are pronounced and the 'best' pronunciation comes from native speakers. Effectively, you will be imitating a native speaker's accent...



Yes you have to know how the words are pronounced but that doesn't mean having to speak in a local, native accent. How would it help a Spanish person coming to Britain if he tried to copy say, a Glasgow accent? He might be better understood in London if he still spoke with his Spanish accent. 


> Having said that, a good accent is by no means an indication of fluency in that language and conversely, speaking a foreign language in a thick english accent doesn't mean that you're hopeless at it!



Sir Alf Ramsay (the football manager) had elocution lessons. He used to sound ridiculous, I read, because it was posh-sounding but with appalling grammatical errors.


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## Tatzingo

maxiogee said:
			
		

> I think the same would hold for a foreign langauge. One should try to get as close to the intonation one's listeners will expect to hear, but not strive for verisimilitude - they'll spot it before you finish your first sentence and be derisive - why would a French person wish to sound like a native of Kerry when they speak English there - the locals will expect a French flavour to the foreigner's English.


Hi,

Interesting comment. However, assuming that not all listeners will be derisive if you do strive for verisimilitude, I think that there's nothing wrong in striving for it. I mean, the derision aside, is there any other reason why one shouldn't strive for verisimiltude?

Surely the locals' expectations of how they would like to hear you speak should have little or nothing to do with what standard of accent that you seek to develop?

I've never been to Kerry so i don't know how thick the accent is there and how easy it is to spot a foreigner speaking with a Kerry accent but i personally know a few non-natives who to my ears would pass as native English speakers...

Tatz.

Edit - addition of word 'native' for clarification.


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## Tatzingo

AnotherStephen said:
			
		

> That might be more an unconscious change though. One wouldn't set out to speak differently, necessarily.


Hi,

True. I agree.



			
				AnotherStephen said:
			
		

> Yes you have to know how the words are pronounced but that doesn't mean having to speak in a local, native accent. How would it help a Spanish person coming to Britain if he tried to copy say, a Glasgow accent? He might be better understood in London if he still spoke with his Spanish accent.


No comment on glaswegian accents in London ;-) 
I see your point but don't the vast majority of people inevitably learn the sounds of a foreign word by listening to native speaker say it in their own  particular accent of whichever region/city. 



			
				AnotherStephen said:
			
		

> Sir Alf Ramsay (the football manager) had elocution lessons. He used to sound ridiculous, I read, because it was posh-sounding but with appalling grammatical errors.


;-) I have no concrete celebrity examples to cite but I've known a few ex-pats who are now living in Italy/Spain and after 30 or so years there, they speak the language fluently, albeit with a very very heavy English accent.

Tatz.

Edit. - Spelling.


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## lizzeymac

It seems to me that there are two different issues - 

Is attempting to appear more "posh" or upperclass by taking lesssons to change the accent you were born into in your native language different / better / worse than learning to speak a "foreign" language with the "correct" or most posh accent?
Of course, here in NYC all the private schools boast that their French teachers are from Paris, diction coaches are from London, etc. - i.e. have a posh accent.  (Not my opinion, just telling you how it is here.)  

If you deliberately set out to learn the most posh or "classic" accent in your second language is that phony? Is it worse if that accent doesn't "match" the class of your native accent?  Or is it just pragmatic?  If you are learning the language for professional reasons wouldn't you choose to make the "best" impression & to be understood by the greatest number of people?

In America it is fairly easy to guess where someone lives from their accent, grammar & from regional idioms but a persons "class" & income level are not always the same.  
Many people take short courses in English elocution & table manners for business purposes, their employer often pays for the courses.  
Some people hire private coaches to come to there home for a meal once a week to tutor the entire family on manners & diction & proper etiquette.  
I feel I should think it is an admirable intention but for some reason it creeps me out.
-


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## Vanda

Interesting! I've read a good deal about the RP, the famous "Received Pronunciation" and how it tells about a person's social or educational background. Because of the status attached to it, many people try to learn it, but - so I read - now they have developed an accent which is a mixture of RP and various regional characteristics. Mrs.Thatcher was one having RP classes  (can't affirm that though, I've only heard about it).
One article says it has long been the chief accent taught to foreigners and is widely used abroad by far more peole than have it as a mother-tounge accent in the UK.
Now, concerning a foreign language I go with Maxiogee, I don't expect - let's say- a French person to speak Portuguese with a Brazilian accent (my own). Here we think people speaking Pt with a foreign accent very charming. 
Once I heard a colleague speak English with a perrrfect British accent I really thought he was born in England. I can remember my thought that moment: what a good colonized person he is! And this wasn' t a complimment!


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## maxiogee

Tatzingo said:
			
		

> Interesting comment. However, assuming that not all listeners will be derisive if you do strive for verisimilitude, I think that there's nothing wrong in striving for it. I mean, the derision aside, is there any other reason why one shouldn't strive for verisimiltude?


The non-native ought to be concentrating more on what to say, than on hoe to say it, to my mind.
My 'derision' remark was a throwaway line, I don't mean that they would be actually derisive, but rather that they would prefer clarity to replication.



> Surely the locals' expectations of how they would like to hear you speak should have little or nothing to do with what standard of accent that you seek to develop?


Indeed, but I would go further and say that they don't care (in my experience as a foreigner in other countries, and with foreigners in mine) what you say or how you say it, as long as they can undestand what you mean. 
I get embarrassed when a foreigner makes their best attempt at speaking grammatical English to me and I can't make out what they are saying, constant "I beg your pardon?" and "I'm sorry, could you say that again please" make me feel uncomfortable. I'd occasionally prefer a foreigner to just use the words they feel certain about and let me infer from gestures etc. what they are trying to ask.



> I've never been to Kerry so i don't know how thick the accent is there  (*very!*) and how easy it is to spot a foreigner speaking with a Kerry accent but i personally know a few non-natives who to my ears would pass as native English speakers...



I note from your edit that you put "native" into the post.  There are those who would argue with you for doing that in reference to Kerryfolk's use of English!  (Some might even argue with the contention that some of them are speaking English) Even those of us who live only 170 miles away from them can find it impenetrable at times.

My constant contention is that language is for communication purposes. Anything which adds to langauge is welcome ornamentation, but anything which detracts from it is to be avoided.


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## ingle85

I'm italian and I've been studying English for 14 years....my accent is not bad , it sounds italian but I'm trying to improve it...I've been to Australia twice and next time I will go there,I'm gonna take some lessons of pronunciation....I wanna change my accent and it doesn't matter if my accent will be australian or american.

My boyfriend lives in Australia.Though he's italian , he has a good accent(it might sound strange but he seems to be a native from NY).
When I go out with him and his friends,I don't wanna speak  English,I tend to speak italian because I'm ashamed of having a different accent and I'm afraid that they will not understand me.

When I went to Spain ,I used to speak Spanish all the time and it helped me because now I have a good accent and I speak Spanish fluently.But with English is a different story.I don't know what to do.


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## zebedee

I moved to Spain over 16 years years ago and didn't speak Spanish when I arrived, which means that the Spanish I've assimilated has all been learnt here in Valencia. When I travel to other parts of Spain people comment on my Valencian accent which I've adapted unconsciously. People find it alternatively admirable, curious or just natural under the circumstances. I've never met anyone who thought it phony.

I have a Spanish friend who perfected her English while she nannied for a year with an 'accomodated' family who lived in the Home Counties. Her accent is Spanish mixed with RP and sprinkled with "Gosh!" "Oh reeeeeally?" and other such expressions which I think is endearing and individual. 

No-one can accuse you of being phony when you're evidently making a sincere effort to communicate to the best of your intention. Don't worry about your accent, Stephen, just try for clarity and comprehension and the rest will come naturally.


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## Brioche

AnotherStephen said:
			
		

> In Britain because it was once so class-based, people sometimes used to take elocution lessons, in order to sound through their accent as though they came from a different, better, posher background than they actually did. Nowadays I think most people in Britain would regard trying to change one's accent as a mistake. One speaks in a certain way and that is that. If I tried to change it then to some extent I am presenting a false face to the world. Up to a point I would no longer be being myself. That while not a crime, is a bit sad.
> 
> There is quite a lot of emphasis in foreign language learning in trying to develop an accent that sounds like the local natives. If you went to a foreign country to settle, and took a developed foreign accent with you; aren't you to some extent being a phony?


 
I'm not quite sure what your question is.

For me, the object when learning to speak a new language is to be as close as possible to the _standard_ form in accent and intonation.

I learned standard German before I went to Germany. I lived near Frankfurt for a while, so I learned to understand the Hessian way of speaking, but I never tried to imitate it. I stuck to standard German with a "newsreader's" pronunciation. 

If I went to live in Liverpool or Los Angeles, I would not try to pretend to be a local. However, I know that I would have to adjust some of my vocabulary to be understood. 

However, if I did not speak English, and went to live in Los Angeles permanently, then I would learn LA English.


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## AnotherStephen

lizzeymac said:
			
		

> It seems to me that there are two different issues -
> 
> Is attempting to appear more "posh" or upperclass by taking lesssons to change the accent you were born into in your native language different / better / worse than learning to speak a "foreign" language with the "correct" or most posh accent?
> Of course, here in NYC all the private schools boast that their French teachers are from Paris, diction coaches are from London, etc. - i.e. have a posh accent.  (Not my opinion, just telling you how it is here.)
> 
> If you deliberately set out to learn the most posh or "classic" accent in your second language is that phony? Is it worse if that accent doesn't "match" the class of your native accent?  Or is it just pragmatic?  If you are learning the language for professional reasons wouldn't you choose to make the "best" impression & to be understood by the greatest number of people?
> 
> In America it is fairly easy to guess where someone lives from their accent, grammar & from regional idioms but a persons "class" & income level are not always the same.
> Many people take short courses in English elocution & table manners for business purposes, their employer often pays for the courses.
> Some people hire private coaches to come to there home for a meal once a week to tutor the entire family on manners & diction & proper etiquette.
> I feel I should think it is an admirable intention but for some reason it creeps me out.
> -



I am surprised at how much elocution lessons are being taken in the USA. I thought you were all "Take me as I am" guys?

It does seem worse to me to change one's home accent. I can understand why people don't want to sound like Peter Sellers talking French in Inspector Clouseau, when they attempt a foreign language. If you change your native accent though it's like a part of you has gone. Is that sentimental?


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## AnotherStephen

> *Brioche* I'm not quite sure what your question is.



I suppose I don't like the thought in some ways, that if I went to live in a foreign country, I would simply be mimicking how a local spoke. It wouldn't be my own voice exactly any more. It would be a bit like deciding that from tomorrow I was going to speak in a Sean Connery accent.

Ideally if one was moving to another country one should just move there and not "put on" an accent from day one but just allow one's voice to change, without intentionally striving to change it.


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## mora

Hello

It is natural to speak in the way of people around you. People from Ireland, or GB or Australia come to Canada and as the years go by, their distinctive accents are reduced and they speak more and more in the 'flat' Canadian English. When they get together with their friends from the old country they immediately return to their original 'accented' English, and it is then that you see how striking the change has been. Most people do not even realize it happens, it can not in any way be considered 'phony'. When I travel to the southern USA, I find myself mimicking the accent, but it is not intentional, it is I believe an unconscious attempt to be understood and to fit in. 

Mora


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## wsitiplaju

When you were a baby, you strove to imitate the "locals" around you.  I don't know that you can ever "just allow one's voice to change", because one learns language through imitation.  It always comes from outside you, and perhaps there is always something a little disturbing in this.  Can you really imagine learning a language without imitating the sounds of the people around you?  I don't think the distinction between conscious and unconscious really solves your problem.


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## maxiogee

mora said:
			
		

> Hello
> 
> It is natural to speak in the way of people around you. People from Ireland, or GB or Australia come to Canada and as the years go by, their distinctive accents are reduced and they speak more and more in the 'flat' Canadian English. When they get together with their friends from the old country they immediately return to their original 'accented' English, and it is then that you see how striking the change has been. Most people do not even realize it happens, it can not in any way be considered 'phony'. When I travel to the southern USA, I find myself mimicking the accent, but it is not intentional, it is I believe an unconscious attempt to be understood and to fit in.



As I said earlier…



> There's a difference in 'developing' an accent within your own country and the 'total change' which AnotherStephen spoke of. They are noticeable. The 'total change' person never sounds quite right.



…I think what we're really discussing is people consciously striving to sound like their new neighbours. 
I don't even think that what you mention is an unconscious attempt to be understood, I think it is normal for people to 'pick up' on the accent which is being spoken around them. 

My family used to spend three months every summer in my youth with my grandmother in north-west Ireland. I came back to my friends in school each September with more than a slight hint of Donegal in my voice, which they noticed for about a week or two and then it was gone again. My family never noticed it as it grew, it was only the finished effect which struck those who hadn't heard it develop. I was the only one of four children who picked up on the accent, and I was also the only one who played with local children when I was there, and visited their homes. My siblings tended to play with our cousins, also spending summer with Granny.


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## linguist786

i haven't read any of the posts, except the first. but this is what i'd say about it:

I completely disagree with that motion. Learning a language is all about sounding like the natives, so there's nothing "phoney" about it.

HOWEVER

sometimes, there are people who try and force it a little, and it becomes kinda obvious when the accent is put on! that gets a bit annoying.

If i'm honest, i think my accent in each of the languages i speak (including french and german) is pretty good, since my teachers also say that. my german is nowhere near fluent, but my accent is good i'd say.

i think this stems from my background in learning how to read the Qur'an - the pronunciation is VERY strict, and i think this has had an effect in the way i speak foreign languages - i get a little "scared" of not being understood, if you like.


I'll read the other posts later - it's quite interesting this concept!


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## geve

I agree that it's in great part unconscious. When my sister lived in Scotland and I went to visit her, I really thought she had picked up on the local accent... But actually the locals would ask her "From what part of England are you?" They had a hard time believing her when she said she was French; but I don't think any of them thought she was being phony.

But sometimes developing unconsciously the local accent can indeed make yourself sound phony (even though you can't help it), if people know perfectly well that you're not from the place, and they think you're just trying to imitate them. Especially in your own native language! I have a friend who can't help 'mimicking' the accent of the people she's talking to. She finds it quite embarassing when she's speaking with someone from South of France, fearing that the person will think she's just making fun of his/her accent...


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## Keikikoka

I don't quite understand the idea that if you try to imitate native accents than you are a "phony" because you are not using your own accent. That argument seems funny to me simply because you not only are _not_ using your own accent, you are not using your own language! 

I do not speak spanish by birth. Does my attempt to even learn spanish make me somehow less true to myself? Should I go to ecuador, spain, or Mexico and speak English beacuse that's who I really am? Where do we draw the line in self improvment and education?


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## AnotherStephen

wsitiplaju said:
			
		

> When you were a baby, you strove to imitate the "locals" around you.  I don't know that you can ever "just allow one's voice to change", because one learns language through imitation.  It always comes from outside you, and perhaps there is always something a little disturbing in this.  Can you really imagine learning a language without imitating the sounds of the people around you?  I don't think the distinction between conscious and unconscious really solves your problem.





> Can you really imagine learning a language without imitating the sounds of the people around you?



Yes, because most people don't learn a second language in a country which has people speaking that language all around them. I don't agree that it "always comes from outside you." Probably far more often than not, the learner chooses to work on gaining an accent.


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## geve

AnotherStephen said:
			
		

> Yes, because most people don't learn a second language in a country which has people speaking that language all around them. I don't agree that it "always comes from outside you." Probably far more often than not, the learner chooses to work on gaining an accent.


I'm not sure to get what you mean. Do you really believe that people work on an accent without being in the country and without socializing with people coming from the country?
I have had English teachers from various origins, which got me a pretty 'neutral' accent. But then, the fact that while learning, I travelled to the USA, and that my sister went to Great Britain instead, probably influenced the way we talk, indeed. But I'm not sure one really could work on an accent without being 'immersed' in it...


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## Outsider

AnotherStephen said:
			
		

> There is quite a lot of emphasis in foreign language learning in trying to develop an accent that sounds like the local natives. If you went to a foreign country to settle, and took a developed foreign accent with you; aren't you to some extent being a phony?


In my opinion, a foreigner striving to speak Portuguese with a native accent would not sound pretentious, the way that a native speaker trying to imitate a posh accent does. It would just sound like he or she was making a good effort. And trust me: it takes a _huge_ effort for most people to pass for a native.

But don't worry too much about pronunciation. As you can tell from the replies you got, having a foreign accent is generally not a drawback. It can even be an advantage, in some cases. When people realise you're not a local, they tend to treat you with more deference.



			
				linguist786 said:
			
		

> i haven't read any of the posts, except the first. but this is what i'd say about it:
> 
> I completely disagree with that motion. Learning a language is all about sounding like the natives, so there's nothing "phoney" about it.
> 
> HOWEVER
> 
> sometimes, there are people who try and force it a little, and it becomes kinda obvious when the accent is put on! that gets a bit annoying.


I agree with Linguists's words. I've never heard a foreigner try too hard to speak Portuguese well, but I have heard people try too hard to sound like natives in English, and yes, it can get a little annoying. Especially when they start talking very fast 'cause that's what natives do.


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## AnotherStephen

geve said:
			
		

> I'm not sure to get what you mean. Do you really believe that people work on an accent without being in the country and without socializing with people coming from the country?
> I have had English teachers from various origins, which got me a pretty 'neutral' accent. But then, the fact that while learning, I travelled to the USA, and that my sister went to Great Britain instead, probably influenced the way we talk, indeed. But I'm not sure one really could work on an accent without being 'immersed' in it...



If you are still at school or university there may be chances to go to a country to speak and hear the language. I am learning on my own and I have never even been to Spain! I have yet to try my Spanish out in public.


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## el guia

Hola
This all very interesting to one  trying to improve his Spanish speaking ability. I want to improve my grammar, vocabulary......and pronunciation.

How can I improve pronunciation? I listen to native Spanish speakers and ask for their critique of my procunciation. I have the good fortune of being able to interact with native speakers from many parts of the Americas including Honduras, Mexico, Argentina, Venezuela, Costa Rica and Colombia. I tend to try to improve my pronunciation by using the accent that appeals to me even though I may end up sounding a bit unusual. I don't feel I am offending anyone, I am enjoying the journey of learning and I am improving my ability to communicate with our growing Spanish-speaking community.

While I agree a foreign accent can be charming, it occurs, for the most part because of ability rather than volition. If I have the ability to speak like a native, should I not make the effort to do so?

regards,
el guia


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## Kelly B

I think that the more closely your accent approaches that of a native speaker, the easier you are to understand. That's certainly my goal.


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## wsitiplaju

AnotherStephen said:
			
		

> Yes, because most people don't learn a second language in a country which has people speaking that language all around them. I don't agree that it "always comes from outside you." Probably far more often than not, the learner chooses to work on gaining an accent.


 
When I say that language always comes from outside you, I mean that you learn language from others, whether it's your native language or one you learn as an adult.  I am not sure either about the learner choosing to work on gaining an accent, though I surely agree that there are many degrees of consciousness, and that perfecting one's accent is something one can work on or leave by the wayside.  But I have never studied a language in which learning the sounds of the language was not the first step.  My point is that basic pronunciation is not separable from accent nor, ultimately, from other aspects of language like vocabulary and grammar, because the acquisition of all of these (language as a whole) is based on the principle of imitation.  
Whether you're surrounded by native speakers or not is not, I think, the most important thing determining whether you pick up an accent quickly and sound natural in it or not.  Some people excel at imitation, and speak easily and very naturally-sounding in their second language without ever having visited the country, or talked with anyone besides their teacher.  Others can live for years in a country without noticeable improvement to their accent.  Cases come to mind particularly in which the second language is not much valued by the speaker.  In cases like this, the speaker doesn't "choose" to not learn the accent.  
Hope that clarifies a bit what I was trying to say.


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## gato2

Yo creo que cuando estas aprendiendo algo siempre es normal quererlo hacer lo mejor posible. Claro que jamas podras pasar por un nativo pero es perfectamente comprensible que quieras hablar con el acento que mas se parezca a los que lo utilizan como lengua materna.


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## deGerlaise

The operative word here is try. Try as one might, the majority of people will never acquire an accent where one might be considered a native of that country. In past years I have heard individuals who try to use too many idioms when they are obviously not comfortable with idiomatic English. It does sound a bit odd, but that's Ok. It's where they're at, at that time, with the language. On the other hand I've met Canadians who've come back from Australia or Britain or some other English speaking area where they 'acquire' the accent after a sojourn of a year or two. This I do find annoying, especially if they haven't got it quite right.


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## deGerlaise

Just an addendum. In Canada, I've heard certain francophones saying that it is 'cute' when they hear English speakers speaking French. The number of bilingual English speakers is growing in Canada and correspondingly the number of individuals speaking completely unaccented French is growing.
One should make the best effort to pronounce the word as close as possible to a native speaker's pronunciation. After all, the goal is communication and the better the proununciation, the better the communication.

To you Brits: RP is an interesting animal. A number of years back I was the guest of an older English woman,  who had relatives in Canada. It was through them that I received my introduction. She had, what I would term, a 'posh' accent. Her sole intention on one occaision was to be helpful in the most kindly way when she proffered the comment: "You know, you really should learn to speak properly. It sounds so much nicer."   Obviously a better accent could, at one time, at any rate, be acquired. Speaking properly was the objective. Being phony or not, wasn't an issue. Dropping my bland shapeless Canadian accent - the goal.


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## SofiaB

If we are talking about improving speech in our native language, what is wrong with that? Should we speak like two year olds with no improvement, ridiculous? As for foreign L. The whole point is to imitate the local language accent or why bother. Some are unsuccessful in this but we should try our best to sound like natives that is the best measure of our success of our efforts. So forget the other thoughts and try to imitate as best you can.


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## AnotherStephen

deGerlaise said:
			
		

> To you Brits: RP is an interesting animal.



Is there an expert on RP in the house? Is/was RP something wholly connected with the birth of the BBC? I recall reading somewhere that the British middle-classes spoke pretty much like their working-class neighbours, with regional accents until the BBC came along.

The BBC has a variety of accents on its airwaves these days. Also people don't speak RP much these days - well the younger generation anyway. Is the BBC merely reflecting this trend or did the BBC's dropping RP at some point, cause in part, the reduction in people using the 'posh' accent.


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## Edher

Saludos,

       I think one of the reasons why a lot of immigrants in America make a great effort to lose their accent and attempt to pick up the one that's spoken around them is because, I'm not generalizing, but from what I have experienced and seen, Americans tend to be very dismissive if they don't hear a good ol' American accent coming out of your mouth. I been in classes, meetings etc, and whenever a speaker begins communicating with an accent one could sense right away how people get uneasy. In some cases, the person in charge try to get as little as possible out of them and makes a great effort to shut them up politely. 

If you want to speak about phony, I think that's phony, the fact that some people do understand what people with a ____ accent are saying but they pretend that they don't. I've had people speak to me with a Vietnamese, Spanish, English, Nigerian, Cambodian, Indian, Ethiopian accent and I rarely have a problem understanding what they are saying because I make an effort to understand them. I've noticed that there are other people do could understand them as well and those are the patient polite ones. But at least in this part of the nation, I have learned that it's looked down upon to speak to immigrants since they are viewed as second-class citizens. 

What's really ironic though is that the same people that pretend they don't understand a word from people with an accent, they sure as hell understand word by word what they say whenever it's convinient for them. Say when they need some tutoring or some directions, then they magically can understand the accent that they couldn't before. 

There's also a bias, usually people with either English, French, German, (northern Eurpean accents) tend to be treated better when they are speaking than people with any other accent. 

I'm speaking about my experiences solely. I am in no way generalizing and saying everyone in this country acts the same way. 

Edher


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## fenixpollo

If you haven't figured it out, Stephen, let me just reiterate what has been said by many posters in this thread... The way you speak your second language is your pronunciation.  

You can either:
1) pronounce words like a native speaker of your second language pronounces them, or
2) pronounce words like a native English speaker pronounces them, in which case there is no danger that you would appear "phony" -- If people could even understand you, then you would merely appear to be culturally elitist and stubborn in your unwillingness to adopt a more natural (ie _native_) pronunciation.  





			
				AnotherStephen said:
			
		

> Is there an expert on RP in the house? Is/was RP something wholly connected with the birth of the BBC?


I think that this topic is worthy of its own thread.


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## GenJen54

edher said:
			
		

> I think one of the reasons why a lot of immigrants in America make a great effort to lose their accent and attempt to pick up the one that's spoken around them is because, I'm not generalizing, but from what I have experienced and seen, Americans tend to be very dismissive if they don't hear a good ol' American accent coming out of your mouth. This may or may not be true. I happen to be very good at "hearing" speakers of foreign accents. I also happen to speak two languages, and have studied as many as four languages. Many Americans barely make it through high school language classes. I think that *speaking* a foreign language makes you more empathetic and better able to understand those who are trying to speak your language, even if it is heavily accented. I believe this dismissiveness comes more from frustration and lack of understanding than it does from being impolite.
> 
> I been in classes, meetings etc, and whenever a speaker begins communicating with an accent one could sense right away how people get uneasy. This can be frustrating, especially in a classroom situation, because you are trying to learn material on which you will be tested. I had a math teacher in college who was from an Asian country. Math is a constant struggle for me. Trying to get through a class with someone teaching a subject that was already difficult for me, then trying to decipher a very heavy accent was extremely frustrating.
> 
> Teachers should make some kind of attempt at "accent reduction." I don't think it's rude to ask them to do this. Rather, I think it's practical. Afterall, the key here is communication.
> 
> I have a friend living in Texas who got a Master's in Speech Pathology. She works in the field of accent reduction and works with executives and researchers mostly on helping them reduce their accents so they can better assimilate into the U.S. workplace.
> 
> If you want to speak about phony, I think that's phony, the fact that some people do understand what people with a ____ accent are saying but they pretend that they don't. That's a different situation entirely. They are chosing not to deal with the situation.
> 
> But at least in this part of the nation, I have learned that it's looked down upon to speak to immigrants since they are viewed as second-class citizens. This is a larger societal problem.


 
As for the original question, I don't think it's phony at all to try and "imitate" a particular accent, if that is the area where you are going to be living. It is no different than learning the local "lingo" particular to that area. You do what you can to learn and fit in. Some of this accent acquisition is very unconscious.


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## fenixpollo

Edher said:
			
		

> ...Americans tend to be very dismissive if they don't hear a good ol' American accent coming out of your mouth.


Yes, this happens all too frequently. Many Americans don't make an effort to try to listen to the words if they're spoken in an accent.  I don't know why.





			
				Edher said:
			
		

> I been in classes, meetings etc, and whenever a speaker begins communicating with an accent one could sense right away how people get uneasy.


 I know people whose accent reduces their effectiveness with their coworkers.  They get less respect and their coworkers don't work as hard to help them.





			
				Edher said:
			
		

> In some cases, the person in charge try to get as little as possible out of them and makes a great effort to shut them up politely.


 I haven't really seen this.  Most managers I have worked with are supportive of their people, whatever accent they speak English with.





			
				Edher said:
			
		

> What's really ironic though is that the same people that pretend they don't understand a word from people with an accent, they sure as hell understand word by word what they say whenever it's convenient for them.


 This happens, and it is maddening!  


			
				Edher said:
			
		

> There's also a bias, usually people with either English, French, German, (northern Eurpean accents) tend to be treated better when they are speaking than people with any other accent.


 That bias is mostly due to racism, and it is rampant in the U.S.; although it's also due to cultural favoritism -- some accents are considered "exotic" (Italian, French) while others are considered inferior (Spanish, any Asian accent).





			
				Edher said:
			
		

> I'm speaking about my experiences solely. I am in no way generalizing and saying everyone in this country acts the same way.


 Jen and I are at least two exceptions to the rule.  But a large percentage of my countryfolk are complete ignoramuses.


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## Joelline

I won't try to justify the xenophobia of my fellow native AE speakers, but I can assure you that many are just as ignorant about regional AE accents and people! But I don't think their inablity to understand a "different" accent is necessarily deliberate or meant to be insulting. 

I once was in a restaurant with some colleagues. Our waitress had one of the heaviest W. Viriginia accents I have ever heard. I understood her, but I had to pay very close attention to do so. My colleagues were complaing about her accent when she rushed out of the kitchen of the restaurant and said to us "Thar's a far!" If the inability to understand her had been deliberate, at this point, my colleagues would have reacted as I did: get up and start to walk to the exit. They sat where they were, smiliing bemusedly. I yelled at them, "She said, 'There's a fire.'" THEN, they moved!


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## ceci '79

Back to the original question, I think trying to imitate an accent sounds phony only when the foreigner in question marks certain characteristics of the language too much.

Many beginners (and not only English-speakers) striving for uthenticity tend for example to speak "Godfather Italian", or "Sopranos Italian".

-> _Oooon-aaay beeehl-laaay baaaym-beee-naaah!_ (Una bella bambina).

Our vowels have a distinct quality and quantity, but these speakers mark these differences too much.  The result is grotesque.


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