# This may sound patronizing



## Bobbum

The translations in the WordReference vocabulary "condescendre et prendre le verbe haut" don't seem to have quite the meaning I intend. What I mean is to flatter someone in order to get on their good side. Is there some other verb or idiom in French for that?


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## AmaryllisBunny

I think the reason for this is that, _patronize_ is transitive in English where it is easy to say, "don't patronize me," where as _condescend_ is intransitive and usually takes the adj. form (present p.) condescending. In French, the options are to use "condescendre à" or "traiter avec condescendence," the second you may prefer.


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## ganieda

Patronizing has the aspect of feeling superior too, like "prendre de haut" in french. 
In french if you use "prendre de haut" or "agir avec condescendance" you're not likely to get on anybody's good side. Maybe if you give us the sentence in english we can find something that would suit your intention better?


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## Ouitecheude

well, according to what Bobbum described in the first place, I guess "flatter" would do the trick in French. You can also use the following idiom: "caresser dans le sens du poil"...


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## Bobbum

The context I was thinking of was: _This may sound patronizing_, _but I've always envied (whatever minority) for their musical ability and great sense of humor. _Something like that.


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## petit1

Cela peut paraître de la flagornerie mais ...


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## Bobbum

Non seulement de la flagornerie mais essentiellement insultant.


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## Mauricet

> What I mean is to flatter someone in order to get on their good side. [...] Non seulement de la flagornerie mais essentiellement insultant.


Il faudrait savoir : _to get on their good side_ ou _insultant_ ?? Personne ne s'attend à gagner les faveurs de quelqu'un en l'insultant ! La proposition de petit1 est très bien, je trouve ...


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## Bobbum

Par example, quelqu'un vous montre une peinture. Vous la trouvez terrible, mais vous dîtes: les yeux me plaisent. Ca veut dire que la peinture ne marche pas dans son ensemble mais vous n'avez pas les tripes pour le dire. C'est le même cas ici. Vous insultez l'artiste en disant: les yeux me plaisent.


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## petit1

un peu racoleur ???


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## Micia93

Bobbum said:


> Par example, quelqu'un vous montre une peinture. Vous la trouvez terrible, mais vous dîtes: les yeux me plaisent. Ca veut dire que la peinture ne marche pas dans son ensemble mais vous n'avez pas les tripes pour le dire. C'est le même cas ici. Vous insultez l'artiste en disant: les yeux me plaisent.



Je ne comprends pas du tout ce que tu veux dire Bobbum  Que veux-tu dire par "les yeux me plaisent"?


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## franc 91

To patronize someone means to talk down to them, to belittle them and to a certain extent humiliate them - the example he gives is perhaps a way of demonstrating this.


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## Mauricet

Micia, c'est comme dire d'une fille (à marier) qu'on trouve moche : _elle a de beaux cheveux, et elle aime beaucoup sa mère_. C'est une manière hypocrite d'en dire du mal en ayant l'air de vouloir en dire du bien. Encore faut-il, pour que ça marche, que l'intéressé(e) ne saisisse pas l'insulte derrière le compliment ...


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## Micia93

ha d'accord! merci Mauricet 

Mais, du coup, c'est de l'hypocrisie ça, ce n'est pas de la condescendance, non?


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## Itisi

Il me semble que dans l'exemple donné à #5, 'condescendant' convienne bien.


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## Bobbum

I think Mauricet has caught on to what I was trying to say. Let me try another analogy: When Hitler entertained Il Duce in Germany, he probably said things like: "I really admire Italian culture. It has produced such wonderful opera singers." When all the time he thought his southern neighbors racially inferior, in fact subhuman. His attitude was more than condescending, it was patronizing, i.e. bringing up a minor positive aspect to mask his deep contempt.
I don't think there's a verb in  French  to convey this subtle idea.


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## Itisi

'Passer la pommade' ?


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## guillaumedemanzac

Condescending is not the same as patronizing. Flatter is French as in "Apprenez que tout flatteur vit aux dépens de celui qui l'écoute." Is there not a French colloquialism like "to talk down to someone" - parler à une personne inférieure, parler d'un ton supérieur???

"give it some flannel" sounds like "passer la pommade" - "to be very superior in talking extravagantly" - usually "to bemuse or baffle someone with high-falluting language".


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## petit1

> Is there not a French colloquialism like "to talk down to someone"


I don't know any special verb. We probably use a periphrasis like "parler / dire sur un ton condescendant"


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## Micia93

Le problème avec "condescendant" est que l'on perd la notion d'hypocrisie (comme dans l'exemple donné avec Hitler). Il faudrait un mot qui combine les deux idées.


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## petit1

Il y a bien "*obséquieux*" ou "de l'*obséquiosité*" mais je ne sais pas si c'est préférable.


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## Mauricet

Ce sont des inférieurs qui sont _obséquieux_ envers des supérieurs, normalement. Il me semble que ça ne fonctionne pas dans le sens inverse.


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## Micia93

En fait, il semblerait qu'il s'agisse de personnes de même niveau (Hitler/Mussolini -  La fille moche/moi) dont l'un ferait semblant d'apprécier les qualités de l'autre alors qu'il n'en pense pas un mot, tout ceci sur fond de condescendance.
Pas facile, tout ça! Ce serait plus logique dans le cas d'une personne "supérieure" vis-à-vis d'un subalterne (ou alors, ce sont les deux exemples dont je parle qui m'ont perturbée ....)


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## petit1

Il y a des gens qui sont "*mielleux*" ou parlent sur un ton "mielleux". Je doute que ça fasse avancer le sujet mais j'essaie.


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## franc 91

I find that patronizing coming from you - je trouve ça méprisant de votre part.
Don't patronize me - Ne m'insultez pas. - (does that help?)


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## Micia93

Yes, that's clearer. But that explains why the example with Hitler was not a good one, and it led me on the wrong path ...


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## guillaumedemanzac

petit1 said:


> Il y a des gens qui sont "*mielleux*" ou parlent sur un ton "mielleux". Je doute que ça fasse avancer le sujet mais j'essaie.



Honey-toned in English is sweetening - obsequiously - a difficult message.
The American Indian phrase for that is succinct and direct : White man speak with brown tongue - used for anyone who flatters very condescendingly - still not quite the same as patronizing - you need a French word for talking down to or treating like a child.

  A synonym would be "Don't patronize me. I'm not a child" - "ne me patronise pas, j'suis pas un enfant" - is that too franglais? "Ne me parle pas comme ça, je ne suis pas ton enfant." Are neologisms allowed on this forum?? - I think everyone would understand "patroniser" in French.
.


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## Micia93

It should be "patroni*s*er" then, but I've never heard it.
I think only a sentence would fit : "ne me parle pas comme à un gamin!" for instance


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## Itisi

Est-ce qu'on dit 'parler de haut' ?


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## Micia93

Oui, on peut dire ça (tout comme "prendre de haut")


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## petit1

> A synonym would be "Don't patronize me. I'm not a child"


Would it be like "Don't pat me on the head."?
Pas de paternalisme avec moi. Je ne suis plus un gamin.


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## Topsie

Micia93 said:


> It should be "patroni*s*er" then, but I've never heard it.



Neither have I (unless you're talking about patron saints!)
Perhaps _infantiliser _could work  - though unfortunately I think _patronize _covers a larger scope than that...


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## Mauricet

Le _patronizing_ dont nous discutons ici est défini de façon précise par Bobbum (#16) :





> patronizing, i.e. bringing up a minor positive aspect to mask [one's] deep contempt.


Je crains qu'il n'y ait pas de verbe français qui traduise ce sens restreint de _patronize_. Pour traduire _This may sound patronizing_, _but I've always envied (whatever minority) for their musical ability and great sense of humor_ dans ce sens, je tenterais _J'ai toujours envié_ etc, _au risque de passer pour insultant_. Le contexte indiquerait que l'insulte consiste à mettre en avant ces qualités qu'on considère mineures.


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## petit1

On va dire que je les regarde de haut mais je leur  reconnais quand même des bons côtés


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## petit1

On va dire que je les prend de haut mais je leur reconnais malgré tout de bons côtés: j'ai toujours envié ...


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## djweaverbeaver

guillaumedemanzac said:


> Condescending is not the same as patronizing.



Yes, it is.  The only difference is that when someone is condescending, they tend to me more overt about it than when they're patronizing.


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## Bobbum

The examples gave before might also come under the heading of a left-handed compliment,_ un compliment ambigu. _Or maybe inherent in that sort of evasion.


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## Dale Texas

This is difficult, since from the beginning we've had too many possibilities, "to flatter someone insincerely for the purpose of getting something" "to compliment to gain control of somebody" "to be obsequious" "to actually want to compliment a member of a downtrodden group but knowing it's a stereotype and trying to soften that with an introductory apology, so no poster in either language can be sure.?  Per Mauricet's post #33, what happens if we encounter a black who really is good at music/sports, a Jew who really is good at money handling, etc., is that what we're talking about here, where the very question is going to be patronizing and draw attention to that fact but we have no other choice?  We need to straighten out what we're after.


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## petit1

Just for the beginning of the sentence, I think of something along:
"Je ne voudrais pas paraître + adj (depending on the meaning of "patronizing".
Or "Je sais que ça peut sembler ...."


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## Micia93

Est-ce que "prétentieux (se)" ne conviendrait pas avec tes 2 débuts de phrase?


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## petit1

Oui , tout à fait, Micia bien que la réponse de Dale Texas (#38) laisse planer le doute.


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## Micia93

C'est vrai! Je posais également la question au début (postes 20 et 23) car j'étais perturbée par des exemples contradictoires. Les contextes donnés sont trop différents! il faut faire du cas-par-cas ici ...


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## Bobbum

Enfin, j'ai peut-être dépassé les limites.


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## iuytr

Le contexte est donné #5 . Je propose de contourner la difficulté en troquant le verbe pour un nom : je ne veux pas paraitre un imbécile condescendant, mais j'ai toujours (sincérement) admiré (...)


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## guillaumedemanzac

Bobbum said:


> The examples gave before might also come under the heading of a left-handed compliment,_ un compliment ambigu. _Or maybe inherent in that sort of evasion.



Yes, in English a back-handed compliment but that in context is more like "He said I was very brave to do that - implying it was a really stupid thing to do." Condescending is pretty overt but patronizing is more ironic and is usually the person being patronized who feels that way - not the person giving what he considers to be good advice.

"Il m'a mal compris et je trouve ses idées très patronisantes."

 So what fits there ??? - I still think the neologism "patroniser" and its derivatives would fit the bill. French does lack some vocabulary nuances and this new word is clearly easily understood and fills the gap between condescending and ironical - neither of which have the meaning of patronizing - talking down to someone.


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## guillaumedemanzac

I don't want to sound patronizing but perhaps the French language needs to allow these new borrowings to fill the gaps in their vocabulary. We have borrowed words for centuries from anywhere and everywhere to make our language one of the richest in vocabulary in the world. Shakespeare! Shakespeare! Shakespeare! And without wanting to sound either superior or condescending, maybe the French language should accept these new ideas!


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## Silure

Hello everybody.

Let's fill some gaps     Paternaliste, hautain, flagorneur ? 

Je me lance.


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## petit1

du clientélisme ???
racoleur


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## guillaumedemanzac

Silure said:


> Hello everybody. Let's fill some gaps     Paternaliste, hautain, flagorneur ?
> Je me lance.



Yes, all covering bits of patronizing - the effect of which is a "put-down".
Paternalism has been suggested but like nepotism and favouritism that is protecting someone, acting as a father-figure, mentoring, supporting in an avuncular (uncle as in nephew/nepotism) way. Haughty is more stand-offish than paternalistic.
The person giving paternalistic support doesn't see it as patronizing - though some nephews might disagree and say it is patronizing to think the young person can't do it on his own and needs a hand.
The reason patronizing is so often used with the verb to sound is that the person giving the advice realises it probably sounds patronizing but they do not want it to be taken that way!!


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## Silure

Hello.

I understand your point of view and I agree with it. Since there seem to be definitely some gaps, I was just trying to grasp the very meaning of what Bobbum wrote about.



Bobbum said:


> ........ What I mean is to flatter someone in  order to get on their good side. Is there some other verb or idiom in  French for that?



Flagorner could get close to.


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## Bobbum

Me again. Another example where patronizing someone might be both trying to get on their good side and at the same time subtly putting them down: A youth attired in punk enters a man's place of business. The man says, _Aha! I love __your nose-ring_, when in fact he finds it totally grotesque but wants the young man's business. Isn't that where the verb comes from, to gain someone's patronage by whatever means?
But maybe I'm off the mark. _Le patron _in French is the owner. In English it seems to be the opposite, the customer.


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## guillaumedemanzac

Yes, that is true but,, as mentioned above by someone the act of patronage is one of sponsorship and mentoring someone who needs help - it is active and positive. Whereas to be patronized is to be talked down to - so the person receiving it feels he has been patronized (often, in his view, unnecessarily).
And to sound patronizing is often an apology for patronizing behaviour - meaning that "I know this sounds patronizing but ....."  - it is often sweetened with some apologetic phrase e.g. "I realize that this *may* sound very patronizing but I really do have *your* best interests at heart".
And, when the receiver of the patronage/patronizing comment or action accuses someone of doing it, it is often very negative. "Don't try to patronize me, you nasty little overgrown dwarf!"


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## franc 91

I can give you another example - I remember hearing on BBC Radio 4, a lady member of the panel adressing a group of feminists on the floor. She started by saying - ""Listen, darling," she was immediately cut short by the retort - "Don't darling me!" That is patronising.


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## guillaumedemanzac

Good example. But it was the speaker who was being patronizing by calling feminists "darling".

The person who made the retort (Don't darling me!  ...  Or     ...  Don't you dare call me 'Darling'!) could have been the only one who felt patronized!  You could only tell if they all felt patronized if you were there to see the reaction of the others to that very confrontational situation.


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## franc 91

No it was the lady on the panel who was patronising - the feminists obviously felt insulted and talked down to by the way she was talking to them. It's a bit like when someone in French says 'tu' to you, when you don't know them and they're obviously being confrontational. "Ah bon, c'est toi l'expert!"


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## guillaumedemanzac

That's what I said !!!!  Actually, I would say that the speaker was *being* patronizing. Or that she was patronizing the feminists in her audience. She was being patronizing *to* them.


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