# I suggested that she should buy/ buy/bought a car



## Lanaturalana

Hey guys!

I'm trying to cast some light on the following issue. I have the following sentences (all of them extracted from _English Grammar in Use_ by Cambridge, pg. 68):

1) I suggested that she should buy a car
2) I suggested that she buy a car.
3) I suggested that she bought a car.

I know that they might sound weird to some native ears, but apparently they are used in English (maybe, they only occur in Bristish English). Sentences 1 and 2 are described as subjunctive. But what about sentence number 3? Is that a subjunctive or simply a past indicative form?

I have rescued this post: suggest + (past/present) but I still don't understand what happens with sentence 3, because we are talking about something that occurred in the past, right? There's no other hidden meaning...

Thank you all!


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## elprofe

I've read many threads on this topic, and my conclusion is:
Sentence 1 sounds correct to British speakers, most American speakers would leave out "should"
Sentence 2 sounds correct to everyone, so I suggest that you use this one 
Sentence 3 sounds confusing to some native speakers. When they try to explain what the sentence means, they come up with different interpretations, so I would say sentence 3 is to be avoided.

I hope it helps!


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## Lanaturalana

elprofe said:


> I've read many threads on this topic, and my conclusion is:
> Sentence 1 sounds correct to British speakers, most American speakers would leave out "should"
> Sentence 2 sounds correct to everyone, so I suggest that you use this one
> Sentence 3 sounds confusing to some native speakers. When they try to explain what the sentence means, they come up with different interpretations, so I would say sentence 3 is to be avoided.
> 
> I hope it helps!


Thank you so much for your answer. I have also found the same that you comment, many native speakers find that sentence weird and there is no common agreement in its use. But if we consult other resources like _Practical English Usage_ by Michael Swan, we can find that example included as possible (pg. 562 = He suggested that she got a job in a bank). So there must be an explanation or a kind of a particular context where that structure is used.


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## Cerros de Úbeda

Lanaturalana said:


> 1) I suggested that she should buy a car
> 2) I suggested that she buy a car.
> 3) I suggested that she bought a car.
> 
> Sentences 1 and 2 are described as subjunctive. But what about sentence number 3? Is that a subjunctive or simply a past indicative form?




They are ALL definitely subjunctives.

I think they should be ordered in this way, in order to reflect their uses (albeit, in BE);

1- (3) I suggested that she bought a car.
2- (1) I suggested that she should buy a car
3- (2) I suggested that she buy a car.

In my view, the most common usage for the subjunctive is the past (3).

The difficulty expressed here may have something to do with the fact that it LOOKS LIKE a past (indicative), and may therefore be taken to be only that - but it may be a past in both moods: both in the indicative, and in the subjuntive.

Although here, in this particular example, it can only be a subjunctive.


The other two are a bit more infrequent, as they are more formal usages.

The second one (1) is formal, but still common - the normal usage to mark formality.

The third one (2) is quite infrequent, rather a literary, old, or rare usage...

But, again, this is in BE, not in AE - as this is the main difference in the use of this mood between both varieties of language.


You could test these translation possibilities:

1- (3) Le sugerí que se comprara un coche.
2- (1) Le sugerí (la posibilidad de que) se comprara un coche.
3- (2) Le sugerí comprar / comprase un coche.


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## Lanaturalana

Cerros de Úbeda said:


> Podrías ensayar estas posibilidades de traducción:
> 
> 1- (3) Le sugerí que se comprara un coche.
> 2- (1) Le sugerí (la posibilidad de que) se comprara un coche.
> 3- (2) Le sugerí comprar / comprase un coche.
> 
> 
> They are ALL definitely subjunctives.
> 
> I think they should be ordered in this way, in order to reflect their uses (albeit, in BE);
> 
> 1- (3) I suggested that she bought a car.
> 2- (1) I suggested that she should buy a car
> 3- (2) I suggested that she buy a car.
> 
> In my view, the most common usage for the subjunctive is the past (3).
> 
> The difficulty expressed here may have something to do with the fact that it LOOKS LIKE a past (indicative), and may therefore be taken to be only that - but it may be a past in both moods: both in the indicative, and in the subjuntive.
> 
> Although here, in this particular example, it can only be a subjunctive.
> 
> 
> The other two are a bit more infrequent, as they are more formal usages.
> 
> The second one (1) is formal, but still common - the normal usage to mark formality.
> 
> The third one (2) is quite infrequent, rather a literary, old, or rare usage...
> 
> But, again, this is in BE, not in AE - as this is the main difference in the use of this mood between both varieties of language.


Thank you so much for your explanation. So "I suggested that she bought" would be a subjunctive similar to "if I were".  but talking in the past.

Thank you, guys =)


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## jannr

To my US English speaker ears, the only interpretation of #3 is that I said to you or someone else that she bought a car.  There was no attempt on my part to influence her behavior. "Suggested" is just a synonym for "said", somewhat less direct, a little more polite.


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## Cerros de Úbeda

That is the difference between BE and AE that I pointed to before;

(*)  BE => PAST
"I suggested that she *bought* a car."

(*)  AE 

(1) => INFINITIVE WITHOUT 'TO'
(The most common form)
"I suggested that she *buy* a car."

(2) => PAST SUBJUNCTIVE
(The past subjunctive is considered somewhat rare, but it is still used)
"I suggested that she *bought* a car."


(*) EDIT
I edited this part to take into account the quotes contributed by elprofe in the next post (and my reading of them, in post #10). 


Although, in fact, this would be expressed with a totally different structure... The actual form used would be the accusative and infinitive:

'I suggested her* to buy* a car.'


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## elprofe

I'll copy what my grammar books say about this issue:
Grammar in use - Advance
        We use the present simple with verbs which perform the action they describe (= performatives)
_                      · I suggest you park outside the city and get the bus to the centre_
        After the verbs insist, order, say and suggest we use a that-clause but not a to-infinitive clause:
                       ·_ There were cheers when he suggested that we went home early_
        In less formal contexts we can use ordinary forms of the verb instead of the subjunctive. Compare
                      · _I suggested that he should give up golf_
                      · _I suggested that he give up golf_ (more formal)
                      · _I suggested that he gives up golf _(less formal)

Oxford English Grammar Course (Michael Swan)
        In an informal style, we often drop that after some common reporting verbs
                     · _The teacher suggested (that) I should apply for a university place._

         With verbs that are not third-person singular, the forms are the same as ordinary present-tense verbs (*but they may refer to the past)*.
                     · _He suggested that I move to another office.
_We often drop _If I were you.
                     · (If I were you) _I should/would take an aspirin. (= 'I suggest you take an aspirin.')

Mygrammarlab C1/C2
          We can use passive and negative forms of the subjunctive: 
_                     · Members of the committee suggested England be excluded from future tournaments_
          Shall becomes would when it refers to the future, but should when it is a suggestion_:
                     · 'Shall we tell the manager?' She suggested that they should tell the manager._


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## Lanaturalana

OK, so what I gather from your last comments is that


Cerros de Úbeda said:


> They are ALL definitely subjunctives.
> 
> I think they should be ordered in this way, in order to reflect their uses (albeit, in BE);
> 
> 1- (3) I suggested that she bought a car.
> 2- (1) I suggested that she should buy a car
> 3- (2) I suggested that she buy a car.



Ok, so foccussing on meaning now... All these examples can be used interchangeably, right? I mean, all of them talk about an action I did ("suggested") about sth that needs to happen in the present (she hasn't bought a car yet). Is this correct? Or is there any difference in meaning between them concerning time?


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## Cerros de Úbeda

elprofe said:


> With verbs that are not third-person singular, the forms are the same as ordinary present-tense verbs (*but they may refer to the past)*.
> · _He suggested that I move to another office._




How I read this is:

1- You DO use the past subjunctive:

After the verbs insist, order, say and suggest we use a that-clause but not a to-infinitive clause:
-_There were cheers when he suggested (that) we *went* home early_


- Alternatively, without the 'that':

Oxford English Grammar Course (Michael Swan)
In an informal style, we often drop that after some common reporting verbs
- _The teacher suggested (that) I should apply for a university place._


2- But you consider the subjunctive a 'rare' or formal form, preferring the infinitive without 'to':

- I suggested (that) he give up golf


In less formal contexts we can use ordinary forms of the verb instead of the subjunctive. Compare
- _I suggested that he should give up golf_
_- I suggested that he give up golf_ (more formal)
- _I suggested that he gives up golf _(less formal)


(*) Note
Observe that all these three examples refer to the future, and only the second may be used referring to a past action.

Therefore, only the second is valid in our case, for our OP example.




Lanaturalana said:


> All these examples can be used interchangeably, right?



Yes...

Although, depending on English variety, of course... Both of register (informal / formal alternation), and of regional variety (BE / AE alternation) - as we've seen.



Lanaturalana said:


> I mean, all of them talk about an action I did ("suggested") about sth that needs to happen in the present (she hasn't bought a car yet she may have bought thre car, or not; doesn't matter what she did; the sentence is about 'what I said')



No.

This refers to a past action ('suggested'), referring to a past action (THEN FUTURE , BUT NOW PAST action); 'bought / should buy / buy'

Consider it in Spanish:

'Le aconsejé / sugerí (hace años; 2014) que se comprara un coche (en el futuro; cuando acabara la universidad, en 2017).'

(*) Presente - 2 posibilidades
1- Que sí comprara el coche
-> ahora, 2020, lo usa para ir al trabajo.
2- Que no comprara el coche
-> ahora, 2020, lo necesita para ir al trabajo, pero no lo tiene.


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## Lanaturalana

Thank you so much, guys! This grammar point is a bit tricky and confusing, but now it is much clearer. =)


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## Lanaturalana

And one more thing:

It's vital that he is here at 9.00pm
It's vital that he should be here at 9.00pm
It's vital that he be here at 9.00pm

The only difference is meaning is formality, correct?


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## Cerros de Úbeda

Yes, mostly... Although there's a slight nuance;

The 'is' is more direct and definite - expects him to be there.

The 'should be' is a bit indirect, and less definite. Demands him to be there, but isn't so certain... Doesn't refer to it as a fact.


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## Lanaturalana

Great! Thank you so much!


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## jannr

Algún hablante de BE puede decir si 'I suggested her* to buy* a car' is aceptable en UK. Aquí no.
*X *_'I suggested her to buy a car'_
_*OK *__I told her to buy a car._
_*OK*__ I asked her to buy a car_
_*OK*__ I wanted her to buy a car._
_*OK*__ I needed her to buy a car._


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## Lanaturalana

jannr said:


> Algún hablante de BE puede decir si 'I suggested her* to buy* a car' is aceptable en UK. Aquí no.
> *X *_'I suggested her to buy a car'_
> _*OK *__I told her to buy a car._
> _*OK*__ I asked her to buy a car_
> _*OK*__ I wanted her to buy a car._
> _*OK*__ I needed her to buy a car._



That is not correct. "I suggested buying a car" or "I suggsted that she..."


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## Bevj

Cerros de Úbeda said:


> 'I suggested her* to buy* a car.'




This is certainly not acceptable in BrE.


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## elprofe

Cerros de Úbeda said:


> 'I suggested her* to buy* a car.'



Esto no existe en ninguna variedad de inglés estándar.


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## jannr

Hmmm. I'm not sure. It works for me in something like "I suggested her buying a car instead of (her) wasting her money on bus tickets." In this case "her buying a car" functions as a gerund: "Her buying a car is just plain nuts." or "Her buying a car was a big mistake." Or "I can't understand why you agreed to her buying a car."

But if you mean "Le sugirió que comprara un coche", I would only use "I suggested that she buy a car" or, more likely, "I told her (that) she should buy a car." 

There's something odd about _suggest_, at least in US English. It doesn't fit in with the other verbs of communication in this construction. tell/ask/beg/ X to do something, where X is an indirect object pronoun.  I notice that _insist_ is like _suggest._ 
_*X*_ _I insisted her to leave.   *OK *Bill insists that Dorothy *play* the piano. We have always insisted that she *shake* hands with strangers._


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## gengo

jannr said:


> To my US English speaker ears, the only interpretation of #3 is that I said to you or someone else that she bought a car.  There was no attempt on my part to influence her behavior. "Suggested" is just a synonym for "said", somewhat less direct, a little more polite.



I completely agree.  The verb "to suggest" in #3 means "I offered my opinion that..."  That is, "I suggested that she bought a car" is more or less the same as "Opiné que ella compró un coche."  It is definitely NOT the subjunctive mood, because it does not have any influence on "her."  In the subjunctive meaning, the second verb (after suggest) will always be in the present tense, even though the action (such as buying the car) occurred in the past.

As for the use of "should" in this construction being BrEn, that's not true, because we often say it that way in AmEn.

In all varieties of English, it is incorrect to use the construction "I suggested her" when the "her" refers to "que ella."  Not to say that some native speakers won't say that, but it is definitely incorrect.


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## Cerros de Úbeda

Yes, you're tight. I got confused with the 'accusative and infinitive'...

The verb 'to suggest', like 'to insist', is one of those verbs that are followed by a gerund - that's why it works differently. 

It requires an 'infinitive without to' (rather than an 'accusative and infinitive').


Here is what 'The Free Dictionary' says on 'suggest':


*(*) The Free Dictionary
- To suggest

Be Careful!*
Don't 'suggest someone to do something' when you mean that you advise them to do it. You *suggest that someone does something*.

_I suggest that he writes her a letter.
I'm not suggesting we leave her here._

In sentences like these, you can also use an infinitive without _to_ in the _that_-clause. This is a fairly formal use.

_He suggested she talk to a psychologist._
The modals *might* and *should* are sometimes used. This is a formal use.

_He suggested we might go there straight after dinner.
His wife suggested that he should start a school._
(*) Collins COBUILD English Usage, 2012


*2.* (= _advise_) → aconsejar
- we suggest *you contact* him
→ le aconsejamos que contacte con él
- he suggested *that they (should) go* _or_ *that they went *to London
→ les aconsejó que fueran a Londres
- to suggest *doing sth *
→ aconsejar que se haga algo
(*) Collins Spanish Dictionary, 2005


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## gengo

Cerros de Úbeda said:


> _I suggest that he writes her a letter._



Sé que estás citando lo que dice el diccionario, pero eso es incorrecto, y tiene que ser en el subjuntivo:  _I suggest that he *write* her a letter._

Sin embargo, son muchos los angloparlantes que no saben usar el subjuntivo, así que no es nada raro ver tales errores.


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## Cerros de Úbeda

No, aquí de nuevo tenemos la discrepancia entre la forma británica del subjuntivo, y la americana - aunque esta frase se refiere al futuro (es decir, que es ya distinta de la del OP, que era referida al pasado);

- BE - I suggest that he *writes *her a letter.
- AE - I suggest that he *write* her a letter.


En BE se usa el presente (para el presente de subjuntivo; refiriéndose al futuro), y el pasado (para el pasado de subjuntivo; refiriéndose al presente (hipotético) y al pasado (real)).

1- Cuando *llegue* Pedro, te llamo.
- When Peter *arrives*, I'll phone you

2.2- Me gustaría que *estuvieras* / *comprases* aquí.
- I wish you *were* here. 

2.2- Le dije que se *comprara* / *comprase* un coche.
- I suggested she *bought* a car. 


En AE usáis el 'infinitivo sin to'.


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## elprofe

Cerros de Úbeda said:


> No, aquí de nuevo tenemos la discrepancia entre la forma británica del subjuntivo, y la americana - aunque esta frase se refiere al futuro (es decir, que es ya distinta de la del OP, que era referida al pasado);
> 
> - BE - I suggest that he *writes *her a letter.
> - AE - I suggest that he *write* her a letter.
> 
> Me da que eso no depende de si es BE o AE, sino del registro que esté usando el hablante. La variante con el indicativo (writes) se considera más informal. Tanto es así que algunos hablantes la consideran incorrecta, ya que, estrictamente hablando, verbos como "suggest" requieren subjuntivo.
> 
> En BE se usa el presente (para el presente de subjuntivo; refiriéndose al futuro), y el pasado (para el pasado de subjuntivo; refiriéndose al presente (hipotético) y al pasado (real)).
> 
> 1- Cuando *llegue* Pedro, te llamo.
> - When Peter *arrives*, I'll phone you
> 
> Esto es igual en BE que en AE...
> 
> 2.2- Me gustaría que *estuvieras* / *comprases* aquí.
> - I wish you *were* here.
> 
> Esto también es igual en BE que en AE....
> 
> 2.2- Le dije que se *comprara* / *comprase* un coche.
> - I suggested she *bought* a car.
> 
> 
> En AE usáis el 'infinitivo sin to'.



Esa es mi opinión


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## elprofe

Lanaturalana said:


> Hey guys!
> 
> I'm trying to cast some light on the following issue. I have the following sentences (all of them extracted from _English Grammar in Use_ by Cambridge, pg. 68):
> 
> 1) I suggested that she should buy a car
> 2) I suggested that she buy a car.
> 3) I suggested that she bought a car.
> 
> I know that they might sound weird to some native ears, but apparently they are used in English (maybe, they only occur in Bristish English). Sentences 1 and 2 are described as subjunctive. But what about sentence number 3? Is that a subjunctive or simply a past indicative form?
> 
> I have rescued this post: suggest + (past/present) but I still don't understand what happens with sentence 3, because we are talking about something that occurred in the past, right? There's no other hidden meaning...
> 
> Thank you all!



Yo seguiría el consejo de nativos como Gengo o Jannr
*I suggested she buy / should buy...*:  son las opciones más seguras
*I suggested she buys...*: · Algunos hablantes nativos lo usan así, aunque los más preocupados por la gramática lo tachen de incorrecto.
*I suggested she bought... * Se usa sólo en BE. En AE, ese "_bought_" fuerza una interpretación de _"suggest"_ con otro significado. En vez de _recomendar/aconsejar_, significa _dar a entender, insinuar, _que es otro significado que también tenemos en castellano.


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## gengo

elprofe said:


> *I suggested she bought... * Se usa sólo en BE.



It is a great surprise to me to learn that.  I read lots of British books, and don't remember ever seeing that.  (Of course, it's entirely possible that it just never appeared in my reading.)  In AmEn that sounds very jarring.  In fact, based on that alone, I would have judged the speaker to be a non-native.


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## Bevj

I (BrE) am not happy about 'I suggested she bought....' either.  It does indeed jar on the ear.
I appreciate that the OP has not written these sentences himself, but there are many more natural ways to express this.
_I suggested that she ought to buy a car,_ for example.


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## Nickle Sydney

1) I suggested she bought a car  = the person must be a foreigner
2) I suggested her to buy a car  = it makes no sense whatsoever. Horrible.
3) I suggested she buys a car  = this is just bad
4) I suggested she buy a car = this is correct
5) I suggested she should buy a car  = this is also correct (I see a slight difference between 4 an 5 in their connotations)
6) I suggested she ought to buy car  = means the same as 5


I've noticed there are plenty of references to the books you might be using to hone your English skills. Well, in this case I highly suggest you hold onto the normative forms which you will definitely come across in all books you have at hand.


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## elprofe

Bevj said:


> I (BrE) am not happy about 'I suggested she bought....' either.  It does indeed jar on the ear.
> I appreciate that the OP has not written these sentences himself, but there are many more natural ways to express this.
> _I suggested that she ought to buy a car,_ for example.



Just for the record, you can find some BE speakers who do use the past tense (bought) if you read the link the OP copied: suggest + (past/present)
Don't get me wrong, I don't want to contradict you about anything


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## SevenDays

Lanaturalana said:


> Hey guys!
> 
> I'm trying to cast some light on the following issue. I have the following sentences (all of them extracted from _English Grammar in Use_ by Cambridge, pg. 68):
> 
> 1) I suggested that she should buy a car
> 2) I suggested that she buy a car.
> 3) I suggested that she bought a car.
> 
> I know that they might sound weird to some native ears, but apparently they are used in English (maybe, they only occur in Bristish English). Sentences 1 and 2 are described as subjunctive. But what about sentence number 3? Is that a subjunctive or simply a past indicative form?
> 
> I have rescued this post: suggest + (past/present) but I still don't understand what happens with sentence 3, because we are talking about something that occurred in the past, right? There's no other hidden meaning...
> 
> Thank you all!



_Suggest _(meaning "proposal to do something") takes as complement an untensed that-clause: 

_He suggested that ..._

the verb in the "that-clause" is a _bare infinitive _(without "to"). Infinitives are not conjugated, and therefore not marked for tense. And this makes sense, because a suggestion "to do something" means that the "something" (i.e. "buying a car") hasn't happened yet:

_I suggested that she *buy* a car_

Some people call the infinitive in this that-clause "subjunctive."  But keep in mind this: in Spanish, the subjunctive is _morphologically marked in the verb itself _(for example, we have the subjunctive morphemes _-re_ and _-se_); the implication of this is that you can look at a Spanish conjugation to determine if the verb is subjunctive or not. English lost its subjunctive morphemes long ago. (Check out Old English verbs; you'll find them there.) In modern English, the term "subjunctive" is really a _semantic_ term (dealing with wishes, emotions, subjectivity, unreality, etc.) rather than something that can be identified in the English verb itself.

Since morphology is a non-issue (as far as English goes) some speakers simply say "buys" (_I suggested that she *buys *a car_). In this case, "that she *buy* a car" and "that she *buys* a car" are pragmatically equivalent; it's two ways of saying the same thing. But sometimes ambiguity arises; it all depends on the verb:

_I suggested that she *go* to the movies = _
"Go to the movies. That's what I suggest"

_I suggested that she *goes* to the movies = _
"My stipulation is that she regularly goes to the movies."

Ambiguity is also there in the conjugated past tense of "buy," which signals past tense, and therefore that the "buying" happened:

_I suggested that she *bought *a car_
"She bought a car, and this is what I stipulated."

_Should _is a modal verb. For some speakers "should" is a mark of formality; others see it as part of the "subjunctive," meaning that _should + infinitive _become the equivalent of what other languages do through verb inflection. Either way, formality or subjunctive, misses a larger point: as a modal verb, _should _introduces modality. Simply put, modality is a particular contextual perspective adopted by the speaker. And so, whereas

_I suggested that she *go* to the movies_
can be taken as a straight-forward suggestion

_I suggested that she *should *go to the movies_
becomes something more: a "suggestion" with _added urgency_ (but not quite the order encoded in "she must go"), or perhaps a "suggestion" that acknowledges she has "options" (maybe she can stay home and listen to music), though my preference is for "going to the movies."

There is no need to borrow the term "subjunctive" from other languages to see the syntax of _suggest _and the modality of _should. _


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## Magazine

Cerros de Úbeda said:


> They are ALL definitely subjunctives.



NO es así.



> 3- (2) I suggested that she buy a car.



El único llamado "subjuntivo", que es un modo , como bien dice Seven Days en realidad (ya) no existe, es este.

Pero bien es cierto que hoy en día no se oye (casi) nunca.

This is an interesting page on the topic.

Subjunctive Mood | What is the subjunctive mood?

I thought this was sound advice. 




> We will all have different thresholds for what sounds awkward and right, but here are some examples to clarify the guidance.
> 
> I demand that he be present.
> (If you naturally go for _be_, leave it.)
> It is essential that he *is/be* there.
> (If you can't decide between the normal verb (_is_) and the subjunctive (_be_), go for the subjunctive one.)
> I must insist that he *lower/lowers* his weapon.
> (If you can't bear how the subjunctive verb (_lower_) sounds, have the confidence to use the normal one.)


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