# to say



## greg from vancouver

How would you translate the verb "to say" in these cases:

The sign says "don't walk on the grass"

People say you shouldn't eat too much salt

Say what [whatever] you want, I still don't believe you

Did you just say what I think you said?

Thanks,
Greg


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## clevermizo

greg from vancouver said:


> How would you translate the verb "to say" in these cases:
> 
> The sign says "don't walk on the grass"
> 
> People say you shouldn't eat too much salt
> 
> Say what [whatever] you want, I still don't believe you
> 
> Did you just say what I think you said?
> 
> Thanks,
> Greg



I'm not sure about the first sentence, but in the others I believe the verb قال will suffice:


تقول اليافطة إنّ لأ تمش على الحشيش. على العشب؟

تقول الناس إنّ ليس من المفروض أنْ يأكل الواحد كثيرا من الملح. ...من المفروض ألا  يأكل...؟ 

قل مهما تريد أن تقوله - لم أزل لأ أصدّقك.

هل قد قلتَ ما أعتقد أنك قلته؟

​ I welcome the inevitable arrival of the red pen (or blue, or green, or pink) of others.

Also in whatever-Levantine-dialect-it-is-that-I-think-I-speak, I would say (and for which I also welcome the inevitable red pen):


بيقول عاللوحة إنه لا تمشي عالحشيش.

بيقولوا إنه مش ضروري تاكل كتير بكتير من الملح. ...ضروري ما تاكل ...؟

قول اللي بدّك تقوله، بس مش رح صدّقك.

قلت اللي مفتكر إنك قلته؟


_bi2uul 3al-loo7a 2inno la timshi 3al-7ashiish.

bi2uulu 2inno mish Daruuri taakol ktiir bi-ktiir min il-mil7. ...Daruuri ma taakol?...
(perhaps this is also better as: ...mil7 ktiir... and not min il-mil7)

2uul 2illi biddak t2uulo - bas mish ra7 Sad2ak.

2ilt 2illi miftiker 2innak 2ilto?

_​I have some hesitance about the second both in fus7a and dialect because I feel like it means that "you don't have to" but not the strength of you "should not." Of course, I have some degree of hesitance about all the translations.

Edit: The clips in blue are perhaps better renditions of the second sentence. I have also added transliteration for the dialectal translations.


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## greg from vancouver

Hmmm... I didn't know that Hasheesh could be used in this context.  Or was that a Freudian slip?  What about 3ushb?

Greg


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## clevermizo

greg from vancouver said:


> Hmmm... I didn't know that Hasheesh could be used in this context.  Or was that a Freudian slip?  What about 3ushb?
> 
> Greg



حشيش is just a basic word for grass, as far as I know.


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## toolmanUF

clevermizo said:


> حشيش is just a basic word for grass, as far as I know.


 
I think that it fusha it is better to use the word "عشب". While I know that "حشيش" is used, in order to avoid the confusion I think the first choice is better.

Any word from native speakers?


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## elroy

Here comes a native speaker, armed with the inevitable red pen. 



clevermizo said:


> تقول اليافطة إنّ لأ أن لا/ألا تمشي على الحشيش. على العشب؟​


تقول sounds like a literal translation from English. I would say على اليافطة مكتوبة هذه الكلمات: لا تمش على العشب.​ 
Remember that the point of this sentence is to relate the exact words on the sign, not the message. Also note that a verb after أن is not مجزوم, and this is not affected by an interceding negative. Finally, Toolman (welcome to the Arabic forum!) is right about عشب.





> يقول الناس إنّ ليس من المفروض أنْ يأكل الواحد يؤكل الكثير من الملح. ...من المفروض ألا يأكل...؟


 I would suggest يقول الناس إنه لا يجب أكل/استهلاك الكثير من الملح

Notice that the maSdar is often the smoothest way to translate an impersonal expression. 


> قل مهما تريد أن تقوله - لم لا أزال لا أصدّقك.


 A freer and smoother translation: لن أصدقك مهما قلت.


> هل قد قلتَ ما أعتقد أنك قلته؟​


Good translation.​

Moving on to Levantine... 



> بيقول مكتوب عاللوحة عالآرمة إنه لا ما تمشي(ش) عالحشيش.​
> بيقولوا إنه مش ضروري لازم تاكل/الواحد يوكل* كتير بكتير من الملح/ملح كتير. ...ضروري ما تاكل ...؟​
> قول اللي بدّك تقوله، بس (هيك هيك) مش رح صدّقك.​
> قلت اللي مفتكر بتهيألي إنك قلته؟​


 *Both ياكل (_yaakol_) and يوكل (_yookol_) are possible; I say the latter. 

The same comment about the first sentence applies here. The idea is to report the text verbatim, so your first sentence, while correct with my corrections, is not an accurate translation; it becomes one if we delete إنه.

Here's a transliteration into Palestinian Arabic:

_Maktuub 3al-2aarma: Maa timshi/Matimshiish 3al-7ashiish._
_Bi2uulu inno mish laazem tookol (taakol)/ilwaa7ad yookol (yaakol) iktiir mile7/mile7 iktiir. _
_2uul illi biddak it2uulo, (heek heek) mish ra7 asad2ak._
_2ulet illi bithayya2li innak 2ulto?_


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## clevermizo

elroy said:


> Here comes a native speaker, armed with the inevitable red pen.




Sweet thanks for all the corrections. I think the only reason why I attempt to help people with translations is actually to help myself and not them.

Secondly, when I finished the Syrian course, I learned to make the negative imperative with لا and not ما. Later on, I have learned that ما is used in Lebanese and now apparently, in Palestinian too. I guess ما تمشي is more common throughout the region as a whole than لا تمشي. (Actually, in the same Syrian course, it was admitted that both لا تمشي and ما تمشي are possible).

The other thing about the first sentence (in the dialect translation), is that since it is reporting speech (or actually reporting writing), perhaps it should actually be:


مكتوب عالآرمة: "لا تمش على العشب." 

​
...because the sign is probably written this way anyway?

My Syrian dictionary translates "sign" as لوحة. Perhaps a Syrian or Lebanese speaker around the forum can respond with what they think they would use for sign?

Edit: Also, what does تهيّأ thayya2 mean? (I think the form is تفعّل because of what your vowels are.)


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## elroy

clevermizo said:


> Secondly, when I finished the Syrian course, I learned to make the negative imperative with لا and not ما. [...]


 You are right, but in your sentence you did not use an imperative construction, but a subjunctive. I don't think لا is used with the subjunctive, even in Syrian. 


> The other thing about the first sentence (in the dialect translation), is that since it is reporting speech (or actually reporting writing), perhaps it should actually be: [...]


 You must have missed the paragraph right above my transliterations.  


> My Syrian dictionary translates "sign" as لوحة.


 In Palestinian Arabic that is used to mean "board" or "painting." For "sign" we use آرمة or إشارة.


> Also, what does تهيّأ thayya2 mean?


 بتهيألي literally means "it appears to me" or "me parece" in Spanish. You may be familiar with the noun هيئة - appearance, bearing.

I used this form instead of the one you used because it (mine) flowed better in the sentence, although I have to say the whole sentence is not really something an Arab would be likely to say. The whole construction with _I think _(or other such "short clauses" - I think there's a more elegant linguistic term) embedded in a noun clause is very characteristic of the English language, and it can be a nightmare to translate!


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## clevermizo

elroy said:


> You are right, but in your sentence you did not use an imperative construction, but a subjunctive. I don't think لا is used with the subjunctive, even in Syrian.



Ah, you're right of course. I translated with a subjunctive but I was still thinking as though it were a negated imperative because I had "don't walk on the grass!" in my head. Faux pas. But, out of curiosity, is لا a possibility with the negative imperative in Palestinian?



> You must have missed the paragraph right above my transliterations.


I didn't miss it. After reading your point about that both times, I thought to bring up the example that I did. Anyway, you still haven't said whether you think that is possibly more appropriate so I still don't know whether it's wrong or blatantly obvious that it's right. I'm sorry; I could have said "As you have pointed out, since the first sentence is reporting ..."  Might I note, that the paragraph above your transliterations does not intimate this, but rather that specifically by removing the word إنه from the post-corrected sentence, the sentence becomes more accurate.



> I used this form instead of the one you used because it (mine) flowed better in the sentence, although I have to say the whole sentence is not really something an Arab would be likely to say. The whole construction with _I think _(or other such "short clauses" - I think there's a more elegant linguistic term) embedded in a noun clause is very characteristic of the English language, and it can be a nightmare to translate!



I had a feeling that this sort of sentence was very idiomatic. "Did you just say what I think you said" is something that either expresses extreme astonishment at something that has been said, or is used ironically as confirmation or approval. Is there an Arabic idiom that works better for, at least, the first of these senses?


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## clevermizo

elroy said:


> *Both ياكل (_yaakol_) and يوكل (_yookol_) are possible; I say the latter.



In Jordanian, saying ياكل and ياخد instead of يوكل and يوخد is marked as feminized speech. Is this true in Palestinian?


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## toolmanUF

clevermizo said:


> In Jordanian, saying ياكل and ياخد instead of يوكل and يوخد is marked as feminized speech. Is this true in Palestinian?


 
Really? I was not aware of that, although I was only in Jordan for one summer. Are there any native Jordanians who can confirm this?

Perhaps I never heard this because when people spoke to me they knew that I was a foreigner and thus spoke a more standard variety.


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## elroy

clevermizo said:


> But, out of curiosity, is لا a possibility with the negative imperative in Palestinian?


 No. 


> I didn't miss it. After reading your point about that both times, I thought to bring up the example that I did. Anyway, you still haven't said whether you think that is possibly more appropriate so I still don't know whether it's wrong or blatantly obvious that it's right. I'm sorry; I could have said "As you have pointed out, since the first sentence is reporting ..."  Might I note, that the paragraph above your transliterations does not intimate this, but rather that specifically by removing the word إنه from the post-corrected sentence, the sentence becomes more accurate.


 Arrrghhh... If you read my paragraph again closely, you will see that I said _exactly _what you are saying I didn't say.  Furthermore, please look at my transliteration. But to settle this once and for all, I'll spell it out for you: Your sentence is correct. It is the same as the translation I suggested except that yours uses لا instead of ما, and عشب instead of حشيش.


> I had a feeling that this sort of sentence was very idiomatic. "Did you just say what I think you said" is something that either expresses extreme astonishment at something that has been said, or is used ironically as confirmation or approval. Is there an Arabic idiom that works better for, at least, the first of these senses?


 The only thing I can think of right now is شو قلت؟, said with a tone of voice that shows the person is astonished and not actually asking what the person said. As for the second sense, I'm actually not sure what you're talking about. Could you give an example? 





clevermizo said:


> In Jordanian, saying ياكل and ياخد instead of يوكل and يوخد is marked as feminized speech. Is this true in Palestinian?


 No.


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## clevermizo

toolmanUF said:


> Really? I was not aware of that, although I was only in Jordan for one summer. Are there any native Jordanians who can confirm this?
> 
> Perhaps I never heard this because when people spoke to me they knew that I was a foreigner and thus spoke a more standard variety.



I spoke exclusively in colloquial Arabic whilst in Jordan. Native Jordanians with whom I am friends have instructed me in this manner. In Amman this is true as far as I know - in rural speech, it may be different. I would use a word like باخد [baakhod] and be corrected to بوخد [bookhod] as that was "the way guys here speak." 

The other mark of femininity in Amman is pronouncing ق as [2] instead of as [g]. As such many words I learned before going there, like قديم I pronounce as [2adiim]. However, words that I learned there, such as حلاقة I sometimes even now pronounce [7ilaaga].


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## clevermizo

elroy said:


> As for the second sense, I'm actually not sure what you're talking about.



- "Hey guys, who wants to go grab a beer?"
- "Did you just say what I think you said?" (The sense is not astonishment, but rather confirmation of what was on everyone else's minds already. It is said while smiling and with a slight hint of laughter.)
- "Hell yeah!"

I still misread that other paragraph of yours. But, oh well. It's clear enough now. Sorry to be so aggravating.


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## elroy

clevermizo said:


> - "Hey guys, who wants to go grab a beer?"
> - "Did you just say what I think you said?" (The sense is not astonishment, but rather confirmation of what was on everyone else's minds already. It is said while smiling and with a slight hint of laughter.)
> - "Hell yeah!"


 Hm, ok.  I can't think of a corresponding idiom at the moment.   


> I still misread that other paragraph of yours. But, oh well. It's clear enough now. Sorry to be so aggravating.


 No need to apologize.  Sometimes what is so patently obvious to you is a complete mystery to someone else.

Let me try to clarify, not only for you but for others who read through the thread and share your confusion:

_The idea is to report the text verbatim, so your first sentence, while *grammatically *correct with my corrections, is not an accurate translation* (not "a less accurate translation") because the original sentence is not "The sign says not to walk on the grass"*; it becomes one* - it becomes an accurate translation, not a more accurate translation -* if we delete إنه._


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## clevermizo

elroy said:


> Hm, ok.  I can't think of a corresponding idiom at the moment.
> No need to apologize.  Sometimes what is so patently obvious to you is a complete mystery to someone else.
> 
> Let me try to clarify, not only for you but for others who read through the thread and share your confusion:
> 
> _The idea is to report the text verbatim, so your first sentence, while *grammatically *correct with my corrections, is not an accurate translation* (not "a less accurate translation") because the original sentence is not "The sign says not to walk on the grass"*; it becomes one* - it becomes an accurate translation, not a more accurate translation -* if we delete إنه._



My point or my question was perhaps whether the statement would be uttered in Arabic with the _quotation in fus7a_ as that would be how it would probably be written on the sign. Your Palestinian example still has the entire sentence in Palestinian. So I was asking if it would be better to utter the "The sign says" part in dialect and the "Do not walk on the grass" part in fus7a. I otherwise understand your point about the statement including a direct quotation rather than a subsumed clause.

I.e.: _maktuub 3al-2aarma: la timshi 3ala l-3ushb_, rather than _maktuub 3al-2aarma: ma timshi(sh) 3al-7ashiish_.


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## clevermizo

elroy said:


> Hm, ok.  I can't think of a corresponding idiom at the moment.



There might not be one really, because the whole use of that second sense is a rhetorical play on the original sense of the expression. The idea is pretending to act astonished even though no one is really astonished but rather has been thinking of the same thing that was uttered. It's a playful sarcasm in a way.


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## elroy

Ok, so_ I_ was the one who was confused! Go figure.

The reason I didn't realize what you were getting at was that the sentence in question could have been in Syrian (it is possible to say عشب in colloquial). 

In response to your question, it would depend on whether the sentence was written in fus7a or colloquial, of course. If it was written in fus7a (most likely), then yes, you would say it in fus7a. We do not "translate" written material into colloquial Arabic when we relate it.


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## greg from vancouver

Hmmm.... well this thread turned more interesting while I was sleeping.  To be honest, my 4 sample sentences came flying off the top of my head and onto my keyboard in a matter of about 10 seconds total.  I was just trying to quickly think of a few different uses of the English verb 'to say'', but, as usual, I have ended up learning a lot more than I asked for!!  Thanks for all your input.

Greg


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## clevermizo

elroy said:


> Ok, so_ I_ was the one who was confused! Go figure.
> 
> The reason I didn't realize what you were getting at was that the sentence in question could have been in Syrian (it is possible to say عشب in colloquial).
> 
> In response to your question, it would depend on whether the sentence was written in fus7a or colloquial, of course. If it was written in fus7a (most likely), then yes, you would say it in fus7a. We do not "translate" written material into colloquial Arabic when we relate it.



Yep, that's totally what I was asking; sorry if it wasn't clear. I'm happy we sorted this out before the appearance of more bolding, underlining, blue-ing, red-ing and whatever else.


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## clevermizo

elroy said:


> _2uul illi biddak it2uulo, (heek heek) mish ra7 asad2ak._



I forgot to ask about this: does the use هيك هيك _heek heek_ here mean something like "no matter what" ?


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## elroy

clevermizo said:


> I forgot to ask about this: does the use هيك هيك _heek heek_ here mean something like "no matter what" ?


 Yes - or "anyway" or "in any case."


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