# Nominalising Function of の



## wingman1985

２０００年１２月３１日に東京の世田谷区の家で、家族４人が殺されている*の*が見つかりました。

The sentence meaing is  in ......, four family members were found killed. 

I am wondering the function of の (in red)here? Thanks.


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## Nino83

It seems to be a nominalizer.
*...の*が見つかりました = It was found/discovered *that...*
(it seems the verb _mitsukaru_ takes the nominative case, then の*が*)
mitsukaru · Tangorin Japanese Dictionary


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## Nino83

In other words, in many languages an object (or a subject) clause cannot be placed immediately after (or before, in SOV languages) the verb.
In some languages they are introduced by pronouns (_that_ in English, _que/che_ in Romance languages, _na/ng_ in Tagalog, _bahwa_ in Indonesian and so on) or by a nominal form of the verb followed by the case particle (_koto/no_ + _ga/wo/ni_ in Japanese, _ma/dIk/AcAk_ in Turkish and so on).

For example (I'm not sure if the Chinese sentence is right):
*我知道他弹吉他
私は彼がギターを弾くのを知っています*

With the particle の the clause 彼がギターを弾く becomes (like) a noun and can be followed by the object particle を.  

In your sentence (it was found that four family members were killed) the clause 家族４人が殺されている is the subject of the verb 見つかりました, then the nominalized clause 家族４人が殺されているの is followed by the particle が.


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## SoLaTiDoberman

の=こと＝もの＝thing, stuff
の＝ということ＝というもの＝the thing that~, the stuff that~

However, in this context, こと and もの somehow cannot fit well like の.
In this context, I'd say:
の＝という事件＝という事案=the incident that ~, the case that ~

The *case/stuff/thing/incident that* a four family members were killed in a house in Setagaya was found.


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## wingman1985

Nino83 said:


> In other words, in many languages an object (or a subject) clause cannot be placed immediately after (or before, in SOV languages) the verb.
> In some languages they are introduced by pronouns (_that_ in English, _que/che_ in Romance languages, _na/ng_ in Tagalog, _bahwa_ in Indonesian and so on) or by a nominal form of the verb followed by the case particle (_koto/no_ + _ga/wo/ni_ in Japanese, _ma/dIk/AcAk_ in Turkish and so on).
> 
> For example (I'm not sure if the Chinese sentence is right):
> *我知道他弹吉他
> 私は彼がギターを弾くのを知っています*
> 
> With the particle の the clause 彼がギターを弾く becomes (like) a noun and can be followed by the object particle を.
> 
> In your sentence (it was found that four family members were killed) the clause 家族４人が殺されている is the subject of the verb 見つかりました, then the nominalized clause 家族４人が殺されているの is followed by the particle が.


彼がギターを弾く is thereby translated into* "the fact that he plays guitar",* right?


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## wingman1985

SoLaTiDoberman said:


> の=こと＝もの＝thing, stuff
> の＝ということ＝というもの＝the thing that~, the stuff that~
> 
> However, in this context, こと and もの somehow cannot fit well like の.
> In this context, I'd say:
> の＝という事件＝という事案=the incident that ~, the case that ~
> 
> The *case/stuff/thing/incident that* a four family members were killed in a house in Setagaya was found.


I usually see こと used in combination with が to form a normalizer and this is the first time that I see "のが". That is why I lose focus. 
Why is the case that "*in this context, こと and もの somehow cannot fit well like の."?*


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## DaylightDelight

wingman1985 said:


> Why is the case that "*in this context, こと and もの somehow cannot fit well like の."?*


I don't know "why," but I agree that it doesn't work well.
Probably because of "見つかりました".

家族４人が殺されている*こと*が見つかりました。
家族４人が殺されている*こと*が発見されました。
家族４人が殺されている*こと*がわかりました。
家族４人が殺されている*こと*が予想されます。


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## Schokolade

wingman1985 said:


> Why is the case that "*in this context, こと and もの somehow cannot fit well like の."?*



(I'm not sure if this answers your question but) こと and の are _not_ always interchangeable. Only の is allowed in some cases such as:

田中さんがお風呂で歌っている*の*が聞こえます。( こと + 聞く・聞こえる・見る・感じる etc.)
このパソコンを運ぶ*の*を手伝ってください。( こと + 手伝う・待つ・じゃまする・とめる etc.)
etc.

And only こと is allowed in some cases such as:
私の趣味は映画を見る*こと*です。( の + だ・です etc.)
私は外国で暮らした*こと*があります。(use こと in set phrases ことができる・ことがある・ことにする・ことになる etc.)
etc.

-----

For more, you could refer to:
http://www.jpf.go.jp/j/urawa/j_rsorcs/textbook/setsumei_pdf/setsumei17_3.pdf
初級を教える人のための日本語文法ハンドブック (pages 176-178)


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## Nino83

wingman1985 said:


> 彼がギターを弾く is thereby translated into* "the fact that he plays guitar",* right?


Yes, "I know *the fact that he plays guitar*" or (more simply) "I know *that he plays guitar*".


wingman1985 said:


> Why is the case that "*in this context, こと and もの somehow cannot fit well like の."?*


It depends on the verb. It's a matter of collocation. For example some verbs of perception like _miru, mieru, kiku, kikoeru, kanjiru,_ plus_ tomeru, matsu_ take only _no_ (_koto_ is ungrammatical in these cases), other verbs like (ga) _dekiru,_ (ga)_ aru,_ (ni)_ suru,_ (ni)_ naru,_ (ni)_ yoru_, _kangaeru, tanomu, meijiru_ take only _koto_, while many verbs can take both _koto_ and _no_.


wingman1985 said:


> I usually see こと used in combination with が to form a normalizer and this is the first time that I see "のが".


Probably because some contructions (like _koto ga dekiru/aru_) are very frequent.

If you find it, I'd recommend "A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar" (日本語基本文法辞典) of Seiichi Makino and Michio Tsutsui. It's the best I've found (in English). Every particle, conjunction, auxiliary verb is listed in alphbetical order and there are sample sentences for each one.


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## wingman1985

Nino83 said:


> Yes, "I know *the fact that he plays guitar*" or (more simply) "I know *that he plays guitar*".
> 
> It depends on the verb. It's a matter of collocation. For example some verbs of perception like _miru, mieru, kiku, kikoeru, kanjiru,_ plus_ tomeru, matsu_ take only _no_ (_koto_ is ungrammatical in these cases), other verbs like (ga) _dekiru,_ (ga)_ aru,_ (ni)_ suru,_ (ni)_ naru,_ (ni)_ yoru_, _kangaeru, tanomu, meijiru_ take only _koto_, while many verbs can take both _koto_ and _no_.
> 
> Probably because some contructions (like _koto ga dekiru/aru_) are very frequent.
> 
> If you find it, I'd recommend "A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar" (日本語基本文法辞典) of Seiichi Makino and Michio Tsutsui. It's the best I've found (in English). Every particle, conjunction, auxiliary verb is listed in alphbetical order and there are sample sentences for each one.


Thanks, I have this very book with me and in fact I have all three books from basic to advanced grammar. 
However, when I check "koto", new confusion arrives. The following is the example from this vey book:

 小説を書くことは難しい
Why is it the case that は is adopted instead of が?


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## Nino83

wingman1985 said:


> 小説を書くことは難しい


Probably (but let's wait for a native speaker to confirm) you could use が too. 
In the second sentence "writing a novel" is the topic of the discourse. 
小説を書くこと*が*難しい => It's difficult to write a novel. 
小説を書くこと*は*難しい => As for writing a novel, it is difficult.


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## karlalou

wingman1985 said:


> 家族４人が殺されている*の*が見つかりました。


I'm getting a feel that の is good at representing condition.

殺されている is a condition. If it's 殺されている(という)状況（じょうきょう）が見つかる, I think it's quite logical, but it's unnecessarily wordy.

If it's やりたい*こと*が見つかる, こと works with が見つかる, and it says that someone finds a _thing _he wants to do. This is not about a condition, but a thing to do. Or something like この実験で、～すると～することが見つかった can be found in a scientific report.

To say he finds an _object _he's been looking for, it should be 探していた*もの*が見つかる.

But I can not generalize anything. I don't know for other instances.


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## frequency

Schokolade said:


> こと and の are _not_ always interchangeable.
> For more, you could refer to:
> http://www.jpf.go.jp/j/urawa/j_rsorcs/textbook/setsumei_pdf/setsumei17_3.pdf
> 初級を教える人のための日本語文法ハンドブック (pages 176-178)


Wonderful.



Nino83 said:


> It depends on the verb. It's a matter of collocation. For example some verbs of perception like _miru, mieru, kiku, kikoeru, kanjiru,_ plus_ tomeru, matsu_ take only _no_ (_koto_ is ungrammatical in these cases), other verbs like (ga) _dekiru,_ (ga)_ aru,_ (ni)_ suru,_ (ni)_ naru,_ (ni)_ yoru_, _kangaeru, tanomu, meijiru_ take only _koto_, while many verbs can take both _koto_ and _no_.


This must be.



wingman1985 said:


> I am wondering the function of の (in red)here? Thanks.


My old Chinese friend used to skip の in your case. She used to say like 「家族４人が殺されているが見つかりました。」 I imagine that の may be difficult to understand for you.
Notice the difference between them,
手帳が見つかりました。
家族４人が殺されているのが見つかりました。


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## wingman1985

Nino83 said:


> Probably (but let's wait for a native speaker to confirm) you could use が too.
> In the second sentence "writing a novel" is the topic of the discourse.
> 小説を書くこと*が*難しい => It's difficult to write a novel.
> 小説を書くこと*は*難しい => As for writing a novel, it is difficult.





frequency said:


> Wonderful.
> 
> 
> This must be.
> 
> 
> My old Chinese friend used to skip の in your case. She used to say like 「家族４人が殺されているが見つかりました。」 I imagine that that の may be difficult to understand for you.
> Notice the difference between them,
> 手帳が見つかりました。
> 家族４人が殺されているのが見つかりました。


Then let me skip の here.


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## frequency

wingman1985 said:


> Then let me skip の here.


No way! You can't do!



Nino83 said:


> 小説を書く*こと*が難しい
> 小説を書く*こと*は難しい


Note that こと is used here, not の.


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## wingman1985

frequency said:


> No way! You can't do!
> 
> 
> Note that こと is used here, not の.


Why is it the case that は is adopted instead of が? Let us forget about の and focus on こと


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## frequency

wingman1985 said:


> は is adopted instead of が?


Both ways are okay.
If you want to say,
_It's difficult to write a novel._ => 小説を書くこと*が*難しい。

If you want to say,
_As for writing a novel, it is difficult._=> 小説を書くこと*は*難しい。

In the first one, it has a "picking-up" effect. You are picking up writing a novel, not taking photographs, playing the mahjong, or studying Japanese.
(Special thanks: Nino)


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## Schokolade

> 小説を書くこと*が*難しい
> 小説を書くこと*は*難しい


When you're just telling someone that it's hard to write novels, then you'd say 「小説を書くこと*は*/書くの*は*難しい」.
You'd also use 「こと*は*/の*は*」 as a response to questions like "Is it easy/hard for you to write novels?"「小説を書くのは簡単ですか？/難しいですか？」etc. Here you use the topical は in your response since 小説を書く is old/known information(旧情報/既知情報).

On the contrary, you'd use 「書くの*が*/書くこと*が*難しい」 as a response to "What's difficult for you?"「何をすること*が*/するの*が*難しいですか？」etc. Here you use が in your response cos 小説を書く is new information(新情報).
～が is also often preferred over ～は in subordinate/relative clauses, as in:
「小説を書くの*が*/書くこと*が*難しいときは、～～。」"When it's hard to write a novel, ~~."
「書くの*が*/書くこと*が*難しい小説」"a novel which is difficult to write"
「私*が*持っている本」"a book that I have" -- 「私*は*持っている本」
「私*が*シャワーを浴びているとき、電話が鳴った。」"When I was taking a shower, the phone rang." -- 「私*は*シャワーを浴びているとき、電話が鳴った。」


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## Nino83

Thank you, frequency, Schokolade!
So nominalized clauses and nouns take the same case particles, is it right?
書くこと/のが in: subordinate clauses (書くのが難しい小説), potentials (書くことができる), preferences (書くのが好きだ), feelings (書くのが嬉しい), experiences (書くことがある), and when it is the *focus* of the sentence.
In this case is 小説を書くこと*が*難しい better translated as "it's to write a novel that is difficult/it's to write a novel what is difficult" opposed to 小説を書くこと*は*難しい "as for the novel, it is difficult to write it/it's difficult to write a novel"?


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## frequency

Nino83 said:


> 書くこと/のが in: subordinate clauses (書くのが難しい小説), potentials (書くことができる), preferences (書くのが好きだ), feelings (書くのが嬉しい), experiences (書くことがある), and when it is the *focus* of the sentence.


Indeed. I agree with you.



> 小説を書くこと*は*


This sounds to me,
"Oh do you ask me about writing a novel? Do you want me to speak about writing a novel? Well, you know, writing a novel is (usually)..."

Your central topic is "writing a novel", not difficulty.



> 小説を書くこと*が*難しい


This is a bit related to "How is it?"
You say you have difficulty. In which thing do you have the difficulty? You say in writing a novel.


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## 810senior

I bet that the usage of は/が quite looks like the case for the distinction of definite and indefinite articles in the language that possesses that grammatical stuff...
One thing I am sure of is  小説を書くことは難しい(it's difficult to write a novel) sounds natural as a stand-alone sentence without any context, while 小説を書くことが難しい seems to need some information in the sentence enclosed by it.

For example, a thing like 筆を握った経験の少ない素人が、小説を書くことが難しいと思うのは、言うまでもなく当然のことである。
(it's plain to see that amateurs, who have less taken their pens in their hand, think it is difficult for them to write a novel)


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## Nino83

Thank you all. 
I've found this explanation (about _no wa_ vs. _no ga_) in a different construction, _no wa...da_ (which could interest wingman). 


> Normally the no clause takes wa, marking the entire clase as presupposed, old, unimportant information, and the elment between no wa and da represents a new, important piece of infomation. But sometimes the no clause takes ga, marking the clause as new, important information. In this case the element between no ga and da indicates unimportant information. 私が作っているのがロボットです。 (The one I'm making is a robot)


(A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar, p. 341) 
This is the reason why I though that the sentence with _no ga_ is more marked, i.e it introduces the new information.


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## frequency

810senior said:


> 小説を書くことは難しい(it's difficult to write a novel) sounds natural as a stand-alone sentence without any context,


You're right. For this reason, it is good to be a topic-starter. Vice versa. Because it's a topic-starter, you read it so.


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## wingman1985

Schokolade said:


> When you're just telling someone that it's hard to write novels, then you'd say 「小説を書くこと*は*/書くの*は*難しい」.
> You'd also use 「こと*は*/の*は*」 as a response to questions like "Is it easy/hard for you to write novels?"「小説を書くのは簡単ですか？/難しいですか？」etc. Here you use the topical は in your response since 小説を書く is old/known information(旧情報/既知情報).
> 
> On the contrary, you'd use 「書くの*が*/書くこと*が*難しい」 as a response to "What's difficult for you?"「何をすること*が*/するの*が*難しいですか？」etc. Here you use が in your response cos 小説を書く is new information(新情報).
> ～が is also often preferred over ～は in subordinate/relative clauses, as in:
> 「小説を書くの*が*/書くこと*が*難しいときは、～～。」"When it's hard to write a novel, ~~."
> 「書くの*が*/書くこと*が*難しい小説」"a novel which is difficult to write"
> 「私*が*持っている本」"a book that I have" -- 「私*は*持っている本」
> 「私*が*シャワーを浴びているとき、電話が鳴った。」"When I was taking a shower, the phone rang." -- 「私*は*シャワーを浴びているとき、電話が鳴った。」


So this goes to the very fundemantal differnce between が and は. The former introduces new information while the latter not.


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