# schon damit fällt er aus der deutschen Geschichte heraus



## pache197

Wie würdet ihr 'Hitler war kein Staatsman, und *schon damit fällt er aus der deutschen Geschichte heraus*' ins Englische übersetzen? (Sebastian Haffner, _Anmerkungen zu Hitler _[1978])


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## elroy

That alone is a reason to erase him from German history.


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## Gernot Back

elroy said:


> That alone is a reason to erase him from German history.


I don't think that conveys the German meaning.
I guess automatic DeepL's translation is a better match and I'm afraid you could say the same thing about Donald Trump in relation to US-American history:


			
				DeepL said:
			
		

> Hitler was no statesman, and that alone makes him stand out from German history.


DeepL Translator


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## elroy

Why are you suggesting an automatic translation instead of your own?  

“stand out from German history” makes no sense.


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## bearded

How about a literal translation?
._.and for that reason alone he is dropped from German history _
herausfallen - Wörterbuch ('herausfallen' = to be dropped from..)

In my opinion H. does unfortunately fully belong to German history though.


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## Gernot Back

elroy said:


> Why are you suggesting an automatic translation instead of your own?
> 
> “stand out from German history” makes no sense.


If you are not satisfied with single words in DeepL's suggestion, simply click them and you will get this alternative for example:


			
				DeepL; corrected by myself said:
			
		

> Hitler was no statesman, and that alone makes him an exception in German history.


DeepL Translator.

Let's make DeepL learn to make better translations, that's what it was designed for.



			
				etymonline.com said:
			
		

> exception (n.)
> late 14c., from Anglo-French excepcioun, Old French excepcion, from Latin exceptionem (nominative exceptio) "an exception, restriction, limitation; an objection," noun of action from past-participle stem of excipere "to take out" (see except).



See also: 
ᐅ aus der Reihe fallen Synonym | Alle Synonyme - Bedeutungen - Ähnliche Wörter
Definition of STAND OUT FROM THE CROWD

Your translation @elroy, on the other hand, would sound like an attempt to whitewash German history from Hitler.


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## Perseas

The second meaning of "herausfallen" is "in auffallender Weise anders sein als üblich und sich deshalb außerhalb einer bestimmten Ordnung bewegen". Under this perspective, it seems that the author does not exclude Hitler from the German history, on the contrary he suggests, in my opinion, that Hitler was a peculiarity,  an oddness, a uniqueness in the German history.


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## Demiurg

elroy said:


> That alone is a reason to erase him from German history.


That's definitely wrong.  "herausfallen" means "aus der Reihe fallen" (_to be an exception to the norm_).

Edit: crossed with Perseas


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## manfy

Perseas said:


> The second meaning of "herausfallen" is "in auffallender Weise anders sein als üblich und sich deshalb außerhalb einer bestimmten Ordnung bewegen". Under this perspective, it seems that the author does not exclude Hitler from the German history, on the contrary he suggests, in my opinion, that Hitler was a peculiarity,  an oddness, a uniqueness in the German history.


 That seems quite likely.
Apparently the author tried to avoid the words _hervorstechen, herausragen (to stand out_) because of their primarily positive and admiring connotations. 
But actually the German sentence is not entirely clear. It's hard to figure out what the author is really trying to say with it. Additional context might help.


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## Perseas

manfy said:


> Additional context might help.


Anmerkungen zu Hitler


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## Demiurg

Perseas said:


> Anmerkungen zu Hitler


The next sentence makes it clear: ein Unikum ohne Vorläufer und Nachfolger


> Hitler war kein Staatsmann, und schon damit fällt er aus der deutschen Geschichte heraus. Man kann ihn aber auch nicht eigentlich einen Volksmann nennen, wie etwa Luther - mit dem er nur das eine gemein hat, daß er in der deutschen Geschichte ein Unikum ist, ohne Vorläufer und Nachfolger.


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## manfy

Thanks, Perseas.
Yes, it seems the author is trying to say that Hitler doesn't fit in. He's not claiming that Hitler is not or should not be seen as part of German history.
Maybe something like "...that alone makes Hitler an oddball (or _the _oddball?) in German history."


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## Demiurg

manfy said:


> Maybe something like "...that alone makes Hitler an oddball (or _the _oddball?) in German history."


Why not simply "an exception" or "unique"?


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## manfy

Demiurg said:


> Why not simply "an exception" or "unique"?


Both words can have positive connotations. The German version is neutral and surrounding context makes clear that it is to be read in a negative sense.

Maybe in an elevated form: "...makes Hitler an aberration in German history" ? (Although, that might be more of an interpretation than direct translation.)


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## Gernot Back

Demiurg said:


> Why not simply "an exception" or "unique"?


... as suggested by DeepL (see above):
an exception in German history
an outsider of German history


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## bearded

Gernot Back said:


> an outsider of German history


Well, an 'outsider' of German history is ''out of the 'normal' German history'', so he is excluded in a sense. The two meanings coincide somewhat.


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## anahiseri

After considering all previous opinions, I would go for something like 
"Hitler was no statesman, and that alone is a reason why he does not deserve a special place in German history"
aberration, oddity, etc. is like something more interesting, to take into account; I think the German sentence is more about ignoring him than about making him stand out. Unique also sounds too positive to my ears.


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## Gernot Back

anahiseri said:


> After considering all previous opinions, I would go for something like
> "Hitler was no statesman, and that alone is a reason why he does not deserve a special place in German history"


So what do you conclude from this? Let's forget about him? Was Hitler a bird's shit in German history after all?


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## Perseas

Or "er brachte einen Missklang/eine Unstimmigkeit in die deutsche Geschichte". Maybe he represented a "discord"/"dissonance"?


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## JClaudeK

anahiseri said:


> I think the German sentence is more about ignoring him than about making him stand out. Unique also sounds too positive to my ears.


Das wäre die 3. Bedeutung von "herausfallen"


> _übertragen_ ⟨etw., jmd. fällt aus etw. heraus⟩ in bestimmter Hinsicht nicht mehr berücksichtigt werden; in einem Verzeichnis nicht mehr länger geführt, in einer Liste nicht mehr länger registriert werden


diese kann aber mMn. ausgeschlossen werden.


Perseas said:


> The second meaning of "herausfallen" is "in auffallender Weise anders sein als üblich und sich deshalb außerhalb einer bestimmten Ordnung bewegen".


Ich stimme auch für Bedeutung 2.


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## JClaudeK

Demiurg said:


> Why not simply "an exception" or "unique"?
> 
> 
> manfy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Both words can have positive connotations.
Click to expand...

What about "an anomaly"?


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## anahiseri

Gernot Back said:


> So what do you conclude from this? Let's forget about him? Was Hitler a bird's shit in German history after all?


Well, it's not my opinion, but it might be Sebastian Haffner's, (without having read anything else by him)


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## anahiseri

JClaudeK said:


> Das wäre die 3. Bedeutung von "herausfallen"
> 
> diese kann aber mMn. ausgeschlossen werden.
> 
> Ich stimme auch für Bedeutung 2.


Kann weshalb ausgeschlossen werden?


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## JClaudeK

anahiseri said:


> Kann weshalb ausgeschlossen werden?


Aus all den Gründen, die die anderen schon erwähnt haben.


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## Kajjo

elroy said:


> “stand out from German history” makes no sense.


"Fällt aus der deutschen Geschichte heraus" made equally little sense to me when I read it the first time. ;-)


Perseas said:


> Under this perspective, it seems that the author does not exclude Hitler from the German history, on the contrary he suggests, in my opinion, that Hitler was a peculiarity, an oddness, a uniqueness in the German history.


This is the correct interpretation, but it is not very idiomatic nowadays. It is probably intentionally phrased in a "rare" way as such authors tend to do.

_Hitler was no statesman, and that alone makes him an peculiarity/exception in German history. _(see #6)


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## elroy

elroy said:


> That alone is a reason to erase him from German history.


 This seemed as ridiculously implausible to me as it did to most everyone here, but I posted it anyway because this was the only definition given by dict.cc, which is usually pretty thorough!   A major omission, I'd say! 


elroy said:


> “stand out from German history” makes no sense.





Kajjo said:


> "Fällt aus der deutschen Geschichte heraus" made equally little sense to me when I read it the first time. ;-)


 "stand out from" is just wrong syntactically, is what I meant.

As for an English translation, I like JCK's "anomaly."   Another option could be "makes him stick out like a sore thumb."


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## manfy

JClaudeK said:


> What about "an anomaly"?


Hmm, I'm not a native English speaker, so I don't quite have that "Feingefühl".
Basically it can work, as well as _exception_, but the first impression of those words in context don't make me happy. As a writer (and translator) you cannot only think of your own interpretation of the word, but also how any uninitiated reader might understand and/or misconstrue it.
_anomaly _-> sounds very scientific and technical
_exception _-> may lead some readers towards exception = exceptional = conclusion: author sees Hitler in a positive light - and the original German version tries hard to avoid that; additionally 'exception' in this context feels a bit like a laconic excuse, just something you need to mention but want to get off the table as quickly as possible.

I still like _aberration _in this context because of its basically neutral meaning but clearly negative connotations.

I think what the author is trying to suggest with "*damit fällt er aus der deutschen Geschichte heraus*" is that Hitler (and the whole Nazi regime and idea) is not a sociological trait in the German people, the German identity, the Germanness of the people. Yes, Hitler happened, the war happened and all of it was horrible, but nobody needs to worry that it will happen again as soon as the next "Führer" comes along. Hitler should not be erased or forgotten, but he should be seen for what he was within the progress of history and within the progress of the German people: he's a statistical outlier, i.e. an aberration in the evolution of German society and identity.

[multiply cross-posted]


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## Perseas

Kajjo said:


> This is the correct interpretation, *but it is not very idiomatic nowadays*. It is probably intentionally phrased in a "rare" way as such authors tend to do.


Does the part in bold mean that few people nowadays share that view?



elroy said:


> "stand out from" is just wrong syntactically, is what I meant.


But it is not wrong here: _We had lots of good applicants for the job, but one stood out from the rest._


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## anahiseri

elroy said:


> That alone is a reason to erase him from German history.


This is absurd if it is meant as a translation of  "er fällt . . . heraus", which does in now way entail a recommendation, but just states a fact. Whatever the dictionary says; I couldn't find it in the dictionary mentioned.


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## Demiurg

Perseas said:


> But it is not wrong here: _We had lots of good applicants for the job, but one stood out from the rest._


But that would be too positive. Compare: _Hitler ragt heraus_ vs. _Hitler fällt heraus_.


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## Gernot Back

elroy said:


> "stand out from" is just wrong syntactically, is what I meant.


So you mean to say that Webster's is wrong?
Definition of STAND OUT FROM THE CROWD
Are _to stand out from the rest/pack/surrounding environment/competitors/competition/others_ all not idiomatic?


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## elroy

I said 





elroy said:


> “stand out *from German history*” makes no sense.


 "stand out from" is wrong in this particular sentence.  Sorry for not being clear.


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## Perseas

Demiurg said:


> But that would be too positive. Compare: _Hitler ragt heraus_ vs. _Hitler fällt heraus_.


I agree with you. I just tried to show that "stand out from" is not always wrong, as Gernot Back also explains in post #31.


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## Kajjo

Perseas said:


> Does the part in bold mean that few people nowadays share that view?


My comment was about linguistics, not about semantics.

My comment was just about the usage of "herausfallen". On the first read of the title sentence I was confused. The sentence is not easy to understand, because almost no one uses "herausfallen" nowadays in this meaning in such a construction. German learners should not learn this usage as common or idiomatic. It is not. It is rare and elevated and I guess most natives here had to re-read the sentence a few times until settling on a meaning.


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## Perseas

Kajjo said:


> On the first read of the title sentence I was confused.


I think that even the statement "Hitler war kein Staatsmann" is somewhat confusing since Hitler was one; he was "Kanzler".


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## Kajjo

Perseas said:


> I think that even the statement "Hitler war kein Staatsmann" is somewhat confusing since Hitler was one; he was "Kanzler".


Yes, the whole sentence is not very well done. 

The author means something along "he was not what a statesman is supposed to be", he didn't have the qualities for it. But, alas, nowadays we have many people in high positions that are not "statesman" as we would wish them to be. Just the facts, Hitler was statesman, was Kanzler, and even in a very bad manner extremely influential.


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## JClaudeK

manfy said:


> _anomaly _-> sounds very scientific and technical


Als ich das vorschlug, dachte ich an das frz. Wort "anomalie", das hier mMn. perfekt passen würde (negativ konnotiert, im Gegensatz zu "exception")

Ob es mit dem englischen "anomaly" so ist, kann ich nicht beurteilen.


> anomaly
> a person or thing that is different from what is usual, or not in agreement with something else and therefore not satisfactory:


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