# triumphus Titi "de Iudaeis imaginibus" illustratur ?



## Kwunlam

Hi everybody, I would like to ask how the phrase 'de Iudaies imaginibus" here is to be understood. I am bit stuck here... 

*In parte interiore triumphus Titi de Iudaies imaginibus illustratur *
(from Lingua Latina per se illustrata vol. II, Cap. XXXVI, p. 21, line 311)

Thank you very much in advance!


----------



## wandle

This reads like a description of the inside of the Arch of Titus. It shows images of Jewish spoils (captured valuables) and prisoners, taken in the siege and storming of Jersualem, AD 70.


Kwunlam said:


> *In parte interiore triumphus Titi de Iudaies imaginibus illustratur *


That contains a typo: it should read _*Iudaeis*_, which is ablative plural of _*Iudaeus*_, 'Jewish'.

The Latin *imago*, like the English 'image', can stand for any kind of pictorial representation of any object. _*De*_ indicates the source from which the illustration is drawn:

'... the triumph of Titus is illustrated with Jewish images'.


----------



## Kwunlam

Thanks ! 

I guess my difficulty is why "de" is used here instead of a mere ablative case of instrument. 

Are they meaning the same, or have some minor differences in meaning?

Thanks once again!


----------



## wandle

wandle said:


> _*De*_ indicates the source from which the illustration is drawn.


Sometimes this usage of _*de*_ can be translated by 'from'. 
In this case, however, that does not work well.


----------



## fdb

Why don't you look it up in the book and try to quote it correctly. Presumably ....inferiore...?


----------



## Cagey

fdb said:


> Why don't you look it up in the book and try to quote it correctly. Presumably ....inferiore...?


With the correction of _Iudaeis_ suggested by wandle, the line is quoted correctly. 
_"In parte interiore triumphus Titi de IUDAEIS IMAGINIBUS illustratur:"_

Ref: De Cap XXXVI Roma Aeterna (Orberg) : Learning Latin - Textkit


----------



## fdb

What does "de" mean?


----------



## bearded

fdb said:


> What does "de" mean?


Hello
I think it is a rather late Latin, and I interpret it as  ''imaginibus de Judaeis = imaginibus Judaeorum^^ (images of Jews).
See in Romance languages (It.) immagini dei Giudei, (Fr.) images de(s) Juifs....


----------



## fdb

It is "late Latin" in the sense that it is from a modern textbook, ostensibly teaching classical Latin.


----------



## bearded

Sure, but I think that even in classical Latin a formulation 'de Iudaeis imaginibus' meaning ' by means of images concerning the Jews' would be possible.


----------



## Scholiast

salvete omnes!

As appeared already in this thread, Kwunlam is working from a textbook of Latin written in German, and prone to Germanic forms of expression in "Latin", which are not entirely classical. _de_ here appears to have issued from German _von_, with the English sense (equivalent to the ablative of instrument) of "by" or "from". Hence perplexity all round.

He might be recommended to look at other textbooks.

Σ


----------



## Quiviscumque

Sorry if I am mistaken, but I think that "triumphus/triumphare de aliquo" is classical or at least Livian (see Ab Urbe Condita 36,40).
In my humble opinion, "de Iudaeis" goes with "triumphus Titi" and "imaginibus" with "illustratur".


----------



## fdb

Now that you mention it, Lewis/Short have several examples for triumpho + de.


----------



## wandle

fdb said:


> Now that you mention it, Lewis/Short have several examples for triumpho + de.


That is true, but what we need to find, for a parallel to the present case, are examples of the noun-phrase *triumphus de [aliquo]*, as subject or object of some other verb. 

L&S quote Cicero Verr. 2, 5, 39, § 100: *de classe populi Romani triumphum agere*, but in this case the expression *triumphum agere de* is equivalent to *triumphare de*, and is thus not a true parallel to the topic phrase. 

However, Livy does have relevant examples:

AUC 36, 40.
*Ad ea consul neque se Ligures prouinciam sortitum esse ait, neque cum Liguribus bellum gessisse, neque triumphum de iis postulare; Q. Minucium confidere breui subactis iis meritum triumphum postulaturum atque impetraturum esse; se de Gallis Bois postulare triumphum*

AUC 23, 10.
*Ite obuiam Hannibali, exornate urbem diemque aduentus eius consecrate, ut hunc triumphum de ciue uestro spectetis.*

This indicates that *Quiviscumque* is right, and the text, despite the juxtaposition of the ablatives, means: 
'The triumph of Titus over the Jews is illustrated with images'.

I still find the topic sentence awkward and would have expected a suitable participle to be included, e.g.:
*In parte interiore triumphus Titi de Iudaeis actus imaginibus illustratur*.


----------



## Kwunlam

Thanks a lot for all your replies !


----------

