# Mujeres en bares, ¿algo habitual? Women in bars.



## heidita

I wonder as came up in this thread, if one can see women in the bars of your country and if it is considered normal and not critizisable. In Spain and Germany it is very normal to see women in bars. My husband was rather surprised to see older ladies (around 70) in a normal bar, having a beer (I am not talking about alcoholics) and ALONE!! This would be rather unheard of here in Spain. For younger people though it is very unusual to go to a bar, even alone. Is this frowned upon in your country? What about cases of elderly women going to bars alone?

Mujeres en bares en Madrid es una aspecto normal y habitual de todos los días. Nadie se escandaliza ni nadie frunce el ceño al ver un mujer sola en un bar, tomando un café o una cerveza. Al parecer, como se ha visto en este hilo, las opiniones al respecto son variadas.
¿En vuestra sociedad se critica este hecho? ¿Se pueden ver mujeres mayores, solas o sin hombres al menos, en los bares? Se criticaría a esas mujeres? En Alemania, me supongo que depende de la zona, pero en generel, es una costumbre habitual. Las mujere se consideran en este sentido con exactamente los mismos derechos que los hombres. Ellos van solos a los bares, pues ellas también. 

¿Vosotros qué pensáis?


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## mirx

heidita said:


> I wonder as came up in this thread, if one can see women in the bars of your country and if it is considered normal and not critizisable. In Spain and Germany it is very normal to see women in bars. My husband was rather surprised to see older ladies (around 70) in a normal bar, having a beer (I am not talking about alcoholics) and ALONE!! This would be rather unheard of here in Spain. For younger people though it is very unusual to go to a bar, even alone. Is this frowned upon in your country? What about cases of elderly women going to bars alone?
> 
> Mujeres en bares en Madrid es una aspecto normal y habitual de todos los días. Nadie se escandaliza ni nadie frunce el ceño al ver un mujer sola en un bar, tomando un café o una cerveza. Al parecer, como se ha visto en este hilo, las opiniones al respecto son variadas.
> ¿En vuestra sociedad se critica este hecho? ¿Se pueden ver mujeres mayores, solas o sin hombres al menos, en los bares? Se criticaría a esas mujeres? En Alemania, me supongo que depende de la zona, pero en generel, es una costumbre habitual. Las mujere se consideran en este sentido con exactamente los mismos derechos que los hombres. Ellos van solos a los bares, pues ellas también.
> 
> ¿Vosotros qué pensáis?


 
In México it would be thought of bad of a woman that goes alone to a bar, she can go with her friends, with her boyfirend, or sister, or even with a group of only male friends. If she goes alone it would seem like she's trying to get laid. If she goes and sits at a table it might seem like she's waiting for someone, so that's (usually) ok. But if she goes and sits at the bar, it won't take 2 minutes before she gets chatted up.

There's no issue about the age of the women though, it might seem a little bit funny finding grannies in a bar, you would usually expect them to be having tea at each other's house or in bed by that time. Apart from that women are welcome and do go to bars.


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## ireney

Depends on the bar, the age and the hour 

There are bars with too loud music and all and a woman being alone in one of them it's more than likely that people will consider she's there hunting for a man (or a woman obviously). 

If she's way past her middle years it will seem strange mainly because of how loud the music is and how most older people do not like that kind of music (we obviously don't talk about jazz or anything of the kind ). Other than that no one is going to bat an eye.

And finally there's the time factor. Up to early in the night people who go into bars may only go in to enjoy a drink or two. If it's later is to have "fun" (an all inclusive word) and dress up (at least what each one considers "dressing up") .  A woman alone in the wee hours will be thought as being after a mate (of the really temporary kind if you know what I mean). A woman alone before that? Well, some may try probing questions but no, in general it will not be taken as a given that she is hunting around.

Mind you it is a very, very rare occurance.


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## Lusitania

The same in Portugal at any age, but it also depends on the bar. 
I think that both women and men rather prefer going out when then have company. Even to go to the cinema.

I go out alone to some bars but the bartenders are my friends, besides that if I go out it's to have a nice chat.


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## The Scrivener

In our friendly, English pubs everyone is welcome and no-one turns a hair if a woman comes in alone. Years ago it would have been assumed that she was trying to pick up a man so it wasn't usual to see solitary women in a bar.

Nowadays, lots of women go for a drink on their own - usually for a welcome rest after they have been shopping. All types of drinks are on offer, including coffee. Pubs are roomier, more comfortable and friendlier than cafés - I know which I prefer.


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## DearPrudence

Ah, English pubs ... 

I thought of you, Heidita when I went past a typical *French *bar.
God, I don't know how any sensible woman would like to put a foot in it. Here I'm talking about "traditional" bars-tabac where there are men drinking at the counter at any time of the day, ogling any human being that is not male & that would be crazy enough to venture in this territory filled with the same typical smell (stale cigarette + something else I couldn't quite describe) (er, can you hear that it traumatized me? )
Personally I don't know any young people going there. If it was an older woman, then, she would be with her husband but that's not really probable.

But I suppose there must be some kind of fashionable cafés for young people & how women on their own would be perceived then, well, we'll have to wait for more knowledgeable people to say ... 

Sorry not to be able to answer your question


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## ChicaCanadiense

In North America it would be very similar to in Mexico; that is, a girl going to a bar alone would seem like she was trying to get picked up, and an old lady in a bar alone would seem funny.

It's mostly young people in bars (usually of legal age, unless they can get a fake id or just seem a lot older than their age), but i guess that depends on what you consider young.  Any senior citizens in bars seems funny to me, unless it's a big group of men.


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## Horazio

A woman in a bar all by herself is just not classy.


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## heidita

ChicaCanadiense said:


> Any senior citizens in bars seems funny to me, unless it's a big group of men.


 
Would you consider me a senior citizen? I go to bars frequently alone. Here in Spain this is not unusual at all. We are talking about the typical "cafetería". Not a night club or bar, where you would only go at night. 



Horazio said:


> A woman in a bar all by herself is just not classy.


Fortunately, Horazio, I live in a liberal country and come from a free country where _class_ is not measured at seeing a woman in a bar having a coffee.


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## mally pense

ChicaCanadiense said:


> In North America it would be very similar to in Mexico; that is, a girl going to a bar alone would seem like she was trying to get picked up, and an old lady in a bar alone would seem funny.


 


Horazio said:


> A woman in a bar all by herself is just not classy.


 
I think the problem here lies not in the action, but in the _perception_ of the action. Clearly we all have a right to do as others do without being judged differently by reason of age, race, gender, religion etc. If we truly want a more just and equal society we must all as human beings make our best personal efforts to deal with our preconceptions, and develop an attitude of equality and acceptance not just within ourselves but amongst those around us.

None of us are perfect, and I think that fighting our prejudices and the prejudices of our respective cultures is something we have to constantly work at.


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## alexacohen

> Originally Posted by *ChicaCanadiense*
> In North America it would be very similar to in Mexico; that is, a girl going to a bar alone would seem like she was trying to get picked up, and an old lady in a bar alone would seem funny.


 
In spite of what Heidita says, the perception is the same in Spain. It has nothing to do with class, but certainly a woman alone in a bar is not acceptable.
"Bar" means exactly what DearPrudence has described as a typical French bar.



> Originally Posted by *DearPrudence*
> Here I'm talking about "traditional" bars-tabac where there are men drinking at the counter at any time of the day, ogling any human being that is not male


I know no woman of any age who would enter one of those bars full of men playing cards, smoking, discussing football and drinking. No sorry, that's not a place a woman should enter. It would be like entering in a public loo reserved for males only.

Do it, if you want to. You're certainly free to enter. But don't you go complaining afterwards about women's rights. It has nothing to do with it.


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## mally pense

alexacohen said:


> In spite of what Heidita says, the perception is the same in Spain. It has nothing to do with class, but certainly a woman alone in a bar is not acceptable.


 
I'm interested to know more about what exactly you mean by "not acceptable".


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## mjmuak

alexacohen said:


> I know no woman of any age who would enter one of those bars full of men playing cards, smoking, discussing football and drinking. No sorry, that's not a place a woman should enter. It would be like entering in a public loo reserved for males only.
> 
> Do it, if you want to. You're certainly free to enter. But don't you go complaining afterwards about women's rights. It has nothing to do with it.


I know two different kind of bars: the ones where people go only to eat and live soon after  (coffe-tapas-bar) where you can easily find men and women doing it on their own (we don´t have these in my small town, a women on her own would be very weird), and the ones Alexa describes. In my town there is one every two streets, always full of men drinking beer and talking about football, Fernando Alonso and women. 



mally pense said:


> I'm interested to know more about what exactly you mean by "not acceptable".


 
Women are certainly allowed in but it is very weird and disagreeable for them. They look at you as if they had never seen a woman before. There is one in the corner of my street and even though the men know my mother and my father they have been staring at my sister and me when we pass by since we started having boobs.

I hope this is different in other towns.


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## mally pense

mjmuak said:


> Women are certainly allowed in but it is very weird and disagreeable for them. They look at you as if they had never seen a woman before. There is one in the corner of my street and even though the men know my mother and my father they have been staring at my sister and me when we pass by since we started having boobs.
> 
> I hope this is different in other towns.


 
I've no doubt it's disagreeable, sadly. I don't think there's any disputing that, and it's a real shame if people somehow think it as inevitable just because it's so ingrained into the culture. I'm sure it will change (it has in the UK - to a large extent at least, but we shouldn't be complacent), so it's hopefully just a question of time and how quickly attitudes and preconceptions can change. It certainly helps if the people responsible for the problem, i.e. NOT women themselves (obviously), start thinking about the issues in ways which are not shackled by their cultural heritage and peer pressure.


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## Horazio

It's very important to distinguish the type of bar , it really plays a major role.

There's the fashonable caffetteria with all types of flavored decaf cappuccinos where all the girls go....and then there's the rough bar near the gas station full of men discussing the last football match...
See the picture now ?


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## mally pense

I don't think the type of bar is the issue, at least not in regard to the question of attitudes. (It may be important of course in recognising and dealing with/coping with the status quo).


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## mjmuak

mally pense said:


> it's hopefully just a question of time


 
I really hope it is, too. Fortunately, I have seen a few making-overs in the last few years, so it looks like it is changing.

Regards


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## alexacohen

mally pense said:


> I'm interested to know more about what exactly you mean by "not acceptable".


 
In rural communities, most villages have a bar, and only one. That bar is suppossed to be an "all male" meeting place, where they relax, drink, play cards or whatever. Women are seen as intruders, and they are.
If the guys want to have a place of their own, what's wrong with that?
Please read again DearPrudence description of a bar. 
Any woman who enters alone, seats herself and asks for a drink is looking for trouble.


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## Selena1967

I don’t know where you are or have been living alexacohen, but, in general, people (men and women) of all ages use to go to ‘bars’ (cafe) in my town. Actually ‘bars’ have been the most common meeting points for me and everyone I know as far as I remember. My aunty is 72, and every time she goes out, always ends up her walk sitting in a cafe taking a soft drink. But in one occasion, years ago, a ‘funny’ anecdote happened to me.  I was in a small rural village doing a questionnaire door-to-door while working as census taker, and I was really thirsty. So I decided to get into a bar, I mean, ‘the bar’ because there was only one in the village. Once I set foot in there everyone turned their heads. I was in "Maleland"  , some of them, sent me a dirty weird look making me feel really uncomfortable  as I were in a Spaghetti Western like Clint Eastwood getting into a “Far west Saloon”. Anyway, though I was a little bit scared for such unexpected ‘hostility’, now it makes me laugh thinking about it, since I did a comment with my boss and he began to ‘threaten’ to send me back again if I didn’t do a good work.


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## mjmuak

Selena1967 said:


> I don’t know where you are or have been living alexacohen, but, in general, people (men and women) of all ages use to go to ‘bars’ (cafe) in my town. Actually ‘bars’ have been the most common meeting points for me and everyone I know as far as I remember. My aunty is 72, and every time she goes out, always ends up her walk sitting in a cafe taking a soft drink. But in one occasion, years ago, a ‘funny’ anecdote happened to me. I was in a small rural village doing a questionnaire door-to-door while working as census taker, and I was really thirsty. So I decided to get into a bar, I mean, ‘the bar’ because there was only one in the village. Once I set foot in there everyone turned their heads. I was in "Maleland"  , some of them, sent me a dirty weird look making me feel really uncomfortable  as I were in a Spaghetti Western like Clint Eastwood getting into a “Far west Saloon”. Anyway, though I was a little bit scared for such unexpected ‘hostility’, now it makes me laugh thinking about it, since I did a comment with my boss and he began to ‘threaten’ to send me back again if I didn’t do a good work.


 
I don´t know where Alexa has been living but I don´t think it really matters. My town has 40.000 inhabitants so it is not a small rural village and, as I said, it has two kinds of bars: café/tapas bar where everybody goes and tipical bars where women are rarely seen. But these cafe/tapas bar are quite new, there wasn´t any ten or fifteen years ago. And there are still plenty of all-men bars. Many. If you walk in my district you´ll find five in less than 10 minutes.


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## Sepia

Selena1967 said:


> I don’t know where you are or have been living alexacohen, but, in general, people (men and women) of all ages use to go to ‘bars’ (cafe) in my town. Actually ‘bars’ have been the most common meeting points for me and everyone I know as far as I remember. My aunty is 72, and every time she goes out, always ends up her walk sitting in a cafe taking a soft drink. But in one occasion, years ago, a ‘funny’ anecdote happened to me.  I was in a small rural village doing a questionnaire door-to-door while working as census taker, and I was really thirsty. So I decided to get into a bar, I mean, ‘the bar’ because there was only one in the village. Once I set foot in there everyone turned their heads. I was in "Maleland"  , some of them, sent me a dirty weird look making me feel really uncomfortable  as I were in a Spaghetti Western like Clint Eastwood getting into a “Far west Saloon”. Anyway, though I was a little bit scared for such unexpected ‘hostility’, now it makes me laugh thinking about it, since I did a comment with my boss and he began to ‘threaten’ to send me back again if I didn’t do a good work.



How rural was it - fresh bear tracks on Main Street, or did they still have traffic lights?

I am not sure this is mainly a man/woman thing. There are places where you'll always get this kind of glances if you in some way or other look different from the other people there. In such places you are usually better off being a woman, providing you have a quick tongue.


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## mally pense

alexacohen said:


> In rural communities, most villages have a bar, and only one. That bar is suppossed to be an "all male" meeting place, where they relax, drink, play cards or whatever. Women are seen as intruders, and they are.
> If the guys want to have a place of their own, what's wrong with that?
> Please read again DearPrudence description of a bar.
> Any woman who enters alone, seats herself and asks for a drink is looking for trouble.


 
Clearly not everyone is as happy with this scenario as you are, and as there is in most villages only one bar as you say, then this clearly is a problem for at least some people even if not for you.

I'm a little worried by your suggestion any woman going into the type of bar you're describing is "looking for trouble". She may in fact just be looking for somewhere to sit and have a drink as Selena was. What happens in that situation if "trouble" arises? Is the woman somehow to blame?


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## mally pense

Sepia said:


> I am not sure this is mainly a man/woman thing. There are places where you'll always get this kind of glances if you in some way or other look different from the other people there. In such places you are usually better off being a woman, providing you have a quick tongue.


 
Yes, perhaps we've all experienced something similar to this, regardless of sex. However, from my point of view, the sort of narrow clientele base that breeds bigotry of this sort (or any sort) is far less likely to develop in an establishment that is genuiinely open and welcoming to all regardless of sex, age, race, sexual orientation, disability, religion etc.


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## mjmuak

mally pense said:


> I'm a little worried by your suggestion any woman going into the type of bar you're describing is "looking for trouble". She may in fact just be looking for somewhere to sit and have a drink as Selena was. What happens in that situation if "trouble" arises? Is the woman somehow to blame?


 
Well... yes and no. If I go to one of those bars I was talking about, I am looking for "trouble", because *I know* how people there are, the kind of things they will say and think about me and the things they will tell me while I am there (at the age of 16 I was once told "eso es una delantera y no la del Real Madrid" when i was passing by the bar in the corner of my street, where people know my family and have seen me grow up). If, like Selena, I enter this bar to have a drink not knowing anything about it, then I would not be looking for "trouble", because it is still a bar where you can eat and drink.


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## alexacohen

Sepia said:


> How rural was it - fresh bear tracks on Main Street, or did they still have traffic lights?


 
Main Street? Where did you get the idea that there *is* a Main Street?
Of course we don't have any traffic lights - we haven't yet discovered the wheel. 
Our males go to the cave-bar after the hunt, while we females clean up the mess and cook the piece outside the cave, you know, in a deerskin pot slung over the fire. 
Of course we are not allowed to touch their hunting gear: we would be ostracized by the tribe's medicine man if we did.


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## alexacohen

mally pense said:


> Clearly not everyone is as happy with this scenario as you are, and as there is in most villages only one bar as you say, then this clearly is a problem for at least some people even if not for you.
> 
> I'm a little worried by your suggestion any woman going into the type of bar you're describing is "looking for trouble". She may in fact just be looking for somewhere to sit and have a drink as Selena was. What happens in that situation if "trouble" arises? Is the woman somehow to blame?


 
The kind of bar DearPrudence, Mjmuak and I mentioned is quite different from a cafeteria. 
What a woman would get if she enters, sits and asks for a drink would be
dirty looks, dirty words and maybe, but just maybe, a pat on the lowest part of her backside. 
I can't see at all where the problem lies: there are more places to go and have a drink than a "males only" bar. It's not as if we women had nowhere to go and must stay at home at all times.


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## heidita

> No sorry, that's not a place a woman should enter. It would be like entering in a public loo reserved for males only.


 
I have no doubt, that as long as women think like this, men will not change their attitude.


> women's rights. It has nothing to do with it.


It has *everything* to do with it.



mally pense said:


> I'm interested to know more about what exactly you mean by "not acceptable".


So am I, mally. 



alexacohen said:


> Women are seen as intruders, and they are.


 
As I said before, men's attitude will not change if women take this attitude.





> Any woman who enters alone, seats herself and asks for a drink is looking for trouble.


 
I am utterly surprised.


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## heidita

alexacohen said:


> Main Street? Where did you get the idea that there *is* a Main Street?
> Of course we don't have any traffic lights - we haven't yet discovered the wheel.
> Our males go to the cave-bar after the hunt, while we females clean up the mess and cook the piece outside the cave, you know, in a deerskin pot slung over the fire.
> Of course we are not allowed to touch their hunting gear: we would be ostracized by the tribe's medicine man if we did.


 
That's different then. In a place like this anything is possible. I didn't know, though , that places like this still existed in Spain. One never ceases to learn something new every day.



> Originally Posted by *alexacohen*
> It's not as if we women had nowhere to go and must stay at home at all times.


I will not enter in this "male only" bars and only _one bar a village_ item as this isn't an issue in Spain. 

But , if it _did _exist, where would a woman then go to meet her friends? To the park?


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## mally pense

heidita said:


> I have no doubt, that as long as women think like this, men will not change their attitude.


 
In the end, I think it matters more that there are people who are _*not*_ happy with these traditional attitudes and behaviour than that there are people who find them acceptable. _(Sorry, the structure of that sentence is perhaps not too nice!)_

It matters even more of course that there are people of _both_ sexes who are prepared to recognise the issues and move forward.

The good news is that we have already seen attitudes change over the years, and no doubt they will continue to do so.


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## mally pense

alexacohen said:


> The kind of bar DearPrudence, Mjmuak and I mentioned is quite different from a cafeteria.


 
I thought we were talking about bars anyway, not cafeterias. Isn't that the topic of the discussion?


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## exist

For me, where I live, a "bar" is somewhere in the town centre where you go for a drink typically in the evening or at night. I don't think it would be strange to see any young person (say, up to 40-ish) of either sex alone in such a place. A young woman going for a drink alone in a bar would seem normal to me, especially if it were early-evening time when people have just finished work. I think it's different in pubs, though. A Spanish friend told me that he found it strange how in British pubs you can find people of all ages (18-90+) together on a weekend night in the same place, apparently this doesn't happen in Spain. I think it would be much less usual to find a woman alone in a pub because they are usually more sociable places and, well, I think that female "loners" are much less common than male ones. If a man goes to a pub alone he can usually find some other guy by himself at the bar to share some small talk with about football or whatever. If a woman does the same, she'll probably only find other men without company and it might seem as if she is "on the pull" (looking for a man).
I'm just talking about where I live though, I think the situation can vary a lot in different parts of the same country, depending on whether they are rural or urban areas, posh suburbs or poor districts, etc.


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## alexacohen

> Selena1967 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don’t know where you are or have been living alexacohen, but, in general, people (men and women) of all ages use to go to ‘bars’ in my town.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, in _your_ town. It doesn't follow that _your town's_ general rule must necessarily be applied to other towns.
> Where I am, or where I live, does not matter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually ‘bars’ have been the most common meeting points for me and everyone I know as far as I remember
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I never said it wasn't so in other places. I clearly mentioned I was talking about a very definite kind of bar and a very definite kind of community. Spain is not Madrid.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So I decided to get into a bar, I mean, ‘the bar’ because there was only one in the village. Once I set foot in there everyone turned their heads. I was in "Maleland", some of them, sent me a dirty weird look making me feel really uncomfortable
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So, you already know which places I meant. Your general rule doesn't apply to them.
Click to expand...


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## alexacohen

mally pense said:


> I thought we were talking about bars anyway, not cafeterias. Isn't that the topic of the discussion?


 
Apparently, not:


> Originally Posted by *Heidita*
> Would you consider me a senior citizen? I go to bars frequently alone. Here in Spain this is not unusual at all. We are talking about the typical "cafetería". Not a night club or bar, where you would only go at night.


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## alexacohen

> Originally Posted by *Heidita*
> That's different then. In a place like this anything is possible. I didn't know, though , that places like this still existed in Spain. One never ceases to learn something new every day.


Oh, yes, there are places like this. In fact I'm not typing on a computer, but I'm sending my posts via tom-tom.


> I will not enter in this "male only" bars and only _one bar a village_ item as this isn't an issue in Spain.


If you decide to believe that this isn't an issue in Spain, in spite of three different Spaniards stating the contrary, then there is no point at all in explaining anything. 


> But , if it _did _exist, where would a woman then go to meet her friends? To the park?


What's a park? We have no parks. There is the cave. We women wouldn't dare leave the cave on our own. Our males wouldn't allow it. When we collect fruits and herbs in the forest the hunters always come with us.


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## mally pense

alexacohen said:


> Apparently, not.


 
Well as I said earlier, I don't think the type of bar is the issue, at least not in regard to the question of attitudes. I was a little surprised therefore that you raised it with me as if it _was_ important. For me, as long as the issue exists _anywhere_, bar, cafe or pub, that's what is important.


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## mally pense

exist said:


> For me, where I live, a "bar" is somewhere in the town centre where you go for a drink typically in the evening or at night. I don't think it would be strange to see any young person (say, up to 40-ish) of either sex alone in such a place. A young woman going for a drink alone in a bar would seem normal to me, especially if it were early-evening time when people have just finished work. I think it's different in pubs, though. A Spanish friend told me that he found it strange how in British pubs you can find people of all ages (18-90+) together on a weekend night in the same place, apparently this doesn't happen in Spain. I think it would be much less usual to find a woman alone in a pub because they are usually more sociable places and, well, I think that female "loners" are much less common than male ones. If a man goes to a pub alone he can usually find some other guy by himself at the bar to share some small talk with about football or whatever. If a woman does the same, she'll probably only find other men without company and it might seem as if she is "on the pull" (looking for a man).
> I'm just talking about where I live though, I think the situation can vary a lot in different parts of the same country, depending on whether they are rural or urban areas, posh suburbs or poor districts, etc.


 
Looking back to the original post, the main question was really whether it was "frowned upon" (or criticizable) for women (young, old or whatever) to go to a bar alone. It's not really clear from your reply whether you're describing what you perceive as the attitudes of those around you, and whether there is indeed any element of critisism or disapproval in what you're describing rather than just statistical observation.

Whatever the truth of this though (i.e. whether it's you who thinks a man going alone to a pub is OK, but a woman doing the same might seem to be "on the pull", or whether you're simply speaking on behalf of others), it does seem to highlight that the problem is mainly one of perception and attitude. Clearly if someone thinks their behaviour in something as simple as the social act of going to a bar for a drink will be interpreted as a sign of sexual predation (dependent on the sex of the said person of course), then unless they are totally oblivious to such social perceptions, obviously at least a certain number of them will be put off, and hence it will not be so common.

I tell you something. A friend of mine (female) goes to a bar/pub/whatever quite often when she gets home from work. Why? Well for the very same reasons that a male might do the same: to drink, socialise a little, to relax, and to get away from the pressures of work and home. Nothing so wrong with that really, and nothing so unusual. The problem, if there is one, is only in the HEADS of people who might for some bizzarre reason assume that she's there for any different reason to anyone else, of any age, of any gender. (This doesn't _exclude_ the possibility of a little sexual frission of course, but isn't that _also_ the same for everyone?).


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## mjmuak

heidita said:


> I really wonder if you live in Spain, actually. I have lived here for over 30 years, in villages, in Madrid....and women _are_ accepted in bars and do take the liberty do go freely.


 


heidita said:


> But , if it _did _exist, where would a woman then go to meet her friends? To the park?


 
Heidita, I think these sentences of yours are quite offensive. Just because you haven't seen these bars it doesn't mean that they don't exist. Two different people, (Alexa and myself) from two different places and who don't know each other at all are telling you that they exist. And not only are you saying that you don't know these places but also that you think that what we say is not true. As Alexa said, Spain is not only Madrid, and believe when I tell you that there are many, many of these bars where I live, and of course that doesn't mean that they are everywhere,but they do exist. In my forty-thousand-inhabitant town there are many more of these only-men bars than cafeterias or tapas bar. In Every corner. If you are interested, I will write you a PM and tell you where I come from so you can go for a weekend and see by yourself that they _do _exist. It takes only three hours by car from Madrid. As I said before, there are also "normal" bars where all kind of people go, but this is quite new.


----------



## alexacohen

mally pense said:


> Well as I said earlier, I don't think the type of bar is the issue, at least not in regard to the question of attitudes. I was a little surprised therefore that you raised it with me as if it _was_ important. For me, as long as the issue exists _anywhere_, bar, cafe or pub, that's what is important.


 
Come on. As I've said before, I don't have any trouble allowing the guys a place of their own. Neither the rest of the women who live where I live (or in the villages nearby). In fact we're not interested at all in playing cards, drinking beer, watching football and commenting endlessly on Fernando Alonso's last victory, or the curves or lack of curves of some model or other. 
Why can't they have a place of their own, if they want to?
It's the same thing as an "only women" night out. We wouldn't allow any man to come with us.


----------



## heidita

Mj, there is nor has been _at any moment_ any intention of offense in any of my posts. If anything I have said, has bothered you , do forgive me, sometimes I seem a little harsh.

Indeed, I didn't mean a night club only. I think it is a question of attitude. When my husband saw a rather old woman in a bar (cervería) alone in Germany for the first time, sitting quietly with her beer, he was shocked. This woman was around 70. But then he started to think about how unfair it is that an elderly lady should not be able to go to a bar, as any man can. He changed his mind. I think this is difficult though, as even many women still think that a woman has nothing to do in  a bar, and less by herself. 

Women in Germany,* Mally*, go to a bar to have a beer, just for the same reason as a man does: to have a drink, chat a little, relax. Actually the same reasons both you and *alexa* have mentioned before.

As I said before, I have lived in Spain, all over Spain actually, for over 30 years. 30 years ago it might have been an issue...but now, any place_ I_ go it is not. 

Actually I have only seen _once_ a place with just _one_ bar: Alarcón. Almost no women there. But this was 15 years ago, things hopefully might have changed.

In any case, I hope other people form other Latin countries, for instance, give us their opinion.


----------



## Wil_the_terrible

Horazio said:


> A woman in a bar all by herself is just not classy.


Very "machista", anyway, probably here in Costa Rica we see it the same way, but I'm a man and if I see a woman having a drink alone in a bar, I wouldn't mind.
By the way, a drunk man is not too classy either.


----------



## DearPrudence

alexacohen said:


> Come on. As I've said before, I don't have any trouble allowing the guys a place of their own. Neither the rest of the women who live where I live (or in the villages nearby). In fact we're not interested at all in playing cards, drinking beer, watching football and commenting endlessly on Fernando Alonso's last victory, or the curves or lack of curves of some model or other.
> Why can't they have a place of their own, if they want to?
> It's the same thing as an "only women" night out. We wouldn't allow any man to come with us.


Sorry because I'm very slow & I couldn't express what I wanted to say ...
But I agree with Alexa once more.




heidita said:


> No sorry, that's not a place a woman should enter. It would be like entering in a public loo reserved for males only.
> 
> 
> 
> I have no doubt, that as long as women think like this, men will not change their attitude.
> 
> 
> 
> women's rights. It has nothing to do with it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It has *everything* to do with it.
> 
> 
> 
> Women are seen as intruders, and they are.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> As I said before,  men's attitude will not change if women take this attitude.
Click to expand...



I would not see it as an improvement to have the right to go to those places. Actually I have the *right *to go there.
But I can't really explain it but I just don't _want _to go there.
In the bars I've seen, men seem to be only sipping alcohol with vacant eyes, not even having conversation. It's quite pathetic.
Sorry, but I don't consider it as an improvement to be able to say:
"Hey, now I have the right to binge drink! Ain't it great! Now I am really equal with men!"

Hmm, I'm not sure I explain it well ...
Those places are simply horrible while pubs are not but I don't know where that difference comes from (must be the decoration I guess)
(let's note that in bigger towns, there are also English or Irish pubs (but to be honest, I don't have a great experience ... ) where young & older people can go. I'm not even sure people would notice a woman on her own)

So personally I guess I'm not a good feminist but I don't mind these places are only for men. But I understand you can regret there are no nicer places for both  sexes.


----------



## mally pense

alexacohen said:


> Come on. As I've said before, I don't have any trouble allowing the guys a place of their own. Neither the rest of the women who live where I live (or in the villages nearby). In fact we're not interested at all in playing cards, drinking beer, watching football and commenting endlessly on Fernando Alonso's last victory, or the curves or lack of curves of some model or other.
> Why can't they have a place of their own, if they want to?
> It's the same thing as an "only women" night out. We wouldn't allow any man to come with us.


 
I must admit that from the descriptions of these places, they don't exactly hold a lot of attraction to me in any case _(classic understatement)_.

More seriously, I think there's more to be gained in society by bringing people together rather than continuing to divide.


----------



## mjmuak

heidita said:


> Mj, there is nor has been _at any moment_ any intention of offense in any of my posts. If anything I have said, has bothered you , do forgive me, sometimes I seem a little harsh.


I am sure you didn't mean to offense anybody, I just wanted to point out that every place is different, even two neighbour cities, and I guess that when you opened this thread you expected different kinds of replies and views, which are as valid as your own, and that will help you understand how life is elsewhere. 

Saludos


----------



## nichec

DearPrudence said:


> Ah, English pubs ...
> 
> I thought of you, Heidita when I went past a typical *French *bar.
> God, I don't know how any sensible woman would like to put a foot in it. Here I'm talking about "traditional" bars-tabac where there are men drinking at the counter at any time of the day, ogling any human being that is not male & that would be crazy enough to venture in this territory filled with the same typical smell (stale cigarette + something else I couldn't quite describe) (er, can you hear that it traumatized me? )
> Personally I don't know any young people going there. If it was an older woman, then, she would be with her husband but that's not really probable.
> 
> But I suppose there must be some kind of fashionable cafés for young people & how women on their own would be perceived then, well, we'll have to wait for more knowledgeable people to say ...
> 
> Sorry not to be able to answer your question


 
You must be talking about those scary places near Gare Saint Lazare  (in Paris)

I walked into one of them alone once (looking for loo) and I swear I will never do that again 

It was okay when I went in with one of my male friends, but it wasn't okay when I went in alone, not okay at all.............(young, female, foreigner....that's like a triple disaster )


----------



## alexacohen

heidita said:


> I really wonder if you live in Spain, actually. I have lived here for over 30 years, in villages, in Madrid....
> ... I am utterly surprised.


I really wonder at your lack of manners, actually.
Yes, I do live in Spain, actually.
I am actually a Spaniard, born and bred.
I find your insinuation that I am lying utterly offensive.


----------



## exist

mally pense said:


> Looking back to the original post, the main question was really whether it was "frowned upon" (or criticizable) for women (young, old or whatever) to go to a bar alone. It's not really clear from your reply whether you're describing what you perceive as the attitudes of those around you, and whether there is indeed any element of critisism or disapproval in what you're describing rather than just statistical observation.



Er, thanks for your critique of my reply (I notice you gave the other posters the same pleasure too). For clarity, maybe you should try reading a little closer though, because apart from one sentence with "*it might seem*" (hmm, observational comment or one loaded with criticism and/or disapproval?), everything else I wrote was prefaced with "*for me*", "*to me*", "*I don't think*", "*I think*" x3. 



mally pense said:


> I tell you something. A friend of mine (female) goes to a bar/pub/whatever quite often when she gets home from work. Why? Well for the very same reasons that a male might do the same: to drink, socialise a little, to relax, and to get away from the pressures of work and home. Nothing so wrong with that really, and nothing so unusual.


As you said a "bar/pub/whatever", it's not really clear what kind of place you're talking about (which I think is relevant), but maybe you missed this part of what I wrote: 



			
				exist said:
			
		

> A young woman going for a drink alone in a bar would seem normal to me, especially if it were early-evening time when people have just finished work.


----------



## Porteño

Here in Argentina there seems to be no stigma attaching to a woman entering a bar, especially if it is a rather elegant establishment, of which there is a profusion. The old style bars, which were essentially for men only, have long disappeared, at least in Buenos Aires, to be replaced by more pleasant locales. However, I think that a lone woman in a bar late at night would be frowned upon and she would be presumed to be either an alcoholic or 'on the game'.


----------



## roseruf

It is very hard for me express myself in English but I would make a try. 
  I live in Catalonia but I have family around Spain. *In my opinion,* the kind of bar alexa has commented is most typical from the south of Spain, and not all around Spain. In many places those bars (or the attitude of the “parroquianos”) are changing. 
  I have felt the sensations that you describe at entering in those bars also here in Catalonia. But, as I’m not used to its existence (if I saw a cafeteria you can be sure I prefer it), I have entered in the midday looking for a sandwich or a coffee in more than one occasion.  I have sat down and enjoy my meal (or my coffee and be sure that when I need a coffee there isn’t a man that can change my mind) trying not to pay attention to the looks. I hear all kind of comments but I ignore them and no one disturbs me. And always the waiters have been very kind! 
  Slowly, I appreciate how, *at least here in Catalonia*, those bars change and now, you can see women enjoying their meal or a coffee alone, but rarely drinking alone...but  I always think it is because we love to chat and then, is better you find a friend to spend your time with! 

  Any kind of correction is welcomed.


----------



## mally pense

exist said:


> Er, thanks for your critique of my reply (I notice you gave the other posters the same pleasure too). For clarity, maybe you should try reading a little closer though, because apart from one sentence with "*it might seem*" (hmm, observational comment or one loaded with criticism and/or disapproval?), everything else I wrote was prefaced with "*for me*", "*to me*", "*I don't think*", "*I think*" x3.


 
The _"it might seem"_ was the crucial one because you suddenly went impersonal. The others, were as you say, clearly you describing what you perceive. Not a problem either way, but I really wasn't sure why you were saying "it might seem" rather than continuing with "for me", "to me", "I think", "I don't think" etc.

But please don't think I was having a go at you. That wasn't my point or intention at all, and I apologise that clearly that's the way it's come across. EDIT: I did appreciate all the positive things you were saying too, such as the _young_ women going to a bar alone, though again I was a little puzzled about the cut-off at 40-ish which wasn't really explained (and which I didn't question).



> As you said a "bar/pub/whatever", it's not really clear what kind of place you're talking about (which I think is relevant), but maybe you missed this part of what I wrote:


 
Unfortunately, as I've already said twice, I personally _don't_ think this is relevant. The issue is the attitudes regardless of type of establishment, and I also never said there were any issues surrounding this particular establishment in any case. (I'm pretty sure there aren't as it happens).


----------



## heidita

I would like to repeat my former post:


> there is nor has been _at any moment_ any intention of offense in any of my posts.


which I would like to direct at all the posters in this thread. 


mjmuak said:


> I am sure you didn't mean to offense anybody,


Thank you for understanding, mjmuak.



DearPrudence said:


> In the bars I've seen, men seem to be only sipping alcohol with vacant eyes, not even having conversation. It's quite pathetic.
> Sorry, but I don't consider it as an improvement to be able to say:
> "Hey, now I have the right to binge drink! Ain't it great! Now I am really equal with men!"


 
I understand this perfectly well, Prudence. Actually I would also like to repeat, that I am talking about any kind of bar, like cafeterias, cafés, coffee shops, cervecerías....
I have no experience myself with night clubs, for instance. And I have no idea how this would be looked at here in Spain either. 
Cafeterias and cervecerías, where you can just as well have a coffee as have a drink, eat something or just have a coke, do not exist like this in my country. The idea of _going out_ is different. 

I agree with you, if these are the bars you know, they look as unattractive to me as the bars alexa is talking about.


> But I understand you can regret there are no nicer places for both sexes.


 
But are there no places like a café or something you can go alone to? Or in company. But for both sexes?


----------



## DearPrudence

mally pense said:


> The issue is the attitudes regardless of type of establishment, and I also never said there were any issues surrounding this particular establishment in any case. (I'm pretty sure there aren't as it happens).


Well, I think it's important. Because there are those types of men in typical French bars doesn't mean that the whole population is "uncivilized". It's just a tiny part of the population.



heidita said:


> I understand this perfectly well, Prudence. Actually I would also like to repeat, that I am talking about any kind of bar, like cafeterias, cafés, coffee shops, cervecerías....
> I have no experience myself with night clubs, for instance. And I have no idea how this would be looked at here in Spain either.
> Cafeterias and cervecerías, where you can just as well have a coffee as have a drink, eat something or just have a coke, do not exist like this in my country. The idea of _going out_ is different.
> 
> But are there no places like a café or something you can go alone to? Or in company. But for both sexes?


In small villages, I guess no (well, in the village I lived in, there were 2 typical bars & that's it)
But then, in bigger towns, there are also brasseries, cafés, cafétérias, restaurants ... where you can go (to eat or drink) with your family, your friends or on your own ...
And in such places I think you would not be surprised to see workers (male or female) on their own, reading something. Well, I find it a bit sad to see them alone () but I don't think anybody would notice them much.

But as I've said, I don't go out much so I would like to have the opinion of other French people  Come on, guys, give me a hand!


----------



## mally pense

roseruf said:


> It is very hard for me express myself in English but I would make a try.
> I live in Catalonia but I have family around Spain. *In my opinion,* the kind of bar alexa has commented is most typical from the south of Spain, and not all around Spain. In many places those bars (or the attitude of the “parroquianos”) are changing.
> I have felt the sensations that you describe at entering in those bars also here in Catalonia. But, as I’m not used to its existence (if I saw a cafeteria you can be sure I prefer it), I have entered in the midday looking for a sandwich or a coffee in more than one occasion. I have sat down and enjoy my meal (or my coffee and be sure that when I need a coffee there isn’t a man that can change my mind) trying not to pay attention to the looks. I hear all kind of comments but I ignore them and no one disturbs me. And always the waiters have been very kind!
> Slowly, I appreciate how, *at least here in Catalonia*, those bars change and now, you can see women enjoying their meal or a coffee alone, but rarely drinking alone...but I always think it is because we love to chat and then, is better you find a friend to spend your time with!
> 
> Any kind of correction is welcomed.


 
Your post got a little lost in the midst of all the flurry of posts round about the same time, but I meant to say that it was extremely well expressed and also it 'sounds a note of optimism' _(gives hope)_ which I'm sure is most welcome. Belatedly, thanks for posting this.


----------



## Selena1967

As far as I know Mally, I've never got any problem for going to a pub since I've been here. I've known some people from Quebec, and they have mentioned, bars, there, are open to 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning, here in BC, pubs use to close earlier. Sure, you avoid going certain crappy places downtown, because you do know some people are 'asking' for troubles there but I supposed is pretty much the same everywhere as it's in Vancouver.


----------



## mally pense

Selena1967 said:


> As far as I know Mally, I've never got any problem for going to a pub since I've been here. I've known some people from Quebec, and they have mentioned, bars, there, are open to 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning, here in BC, pubs use to close earlier. Sure, you avoid going certain crappy places downtown, because you do know some people are 'asking' for troubles there but I supposed is pretty much the same everywhere as it's in Vancouver.


 
Thanks for that Selena. The poster in question was describing the situation in "North America" rather than more specifically Canada where she appears to be located. I wasn't sure therefore exactly which parts of the world she was referring to.


----------



## mally pense

Perhaps I should say at this point that we really do seem to be going round in circles, and agreement is unlikely. If you choose to reply, you may very well have the last word because I'm not sure any of the rest of us see much point in going over things again.


----------



## avok

mjmuak said:


> I know two different kind of bars: the ones where people go only to eat and live soon after (coffe-tapas-bar) where you can easily find men and women doing it on their own (we don´t have these in my small town, a women on her own would be very weird), and the ones Alexa describes. In my town there is one every two streets, always full of men drinking beer and talking about football, Fernando Alonso and women.
> 
> I think, this is the focal point of the argument. There are many type of bars and I guess Heidita meant more of a unisex bar.
> 
> In Turkey we also have men only bars, they are not called bars but "kahvehane" which can translated more likely as "coffee houses" or "tea houses". And of course females look very strange on their own.
> 
> 
> 
> Women are certainly allowed in but it is very weird and disagreeable for them. They look at you as if they had never seen a woman before. There is one in the corner of my street and even though the men know my mother and my father they have been staring at my sister and me when we pass by ...
> 
> I still can't understand how they can see you as an object to look at. They should see you as a daughter !!






Horazio said:


> It's very important to distinguish the type of bar , it really plays a major role.
> 
> There's the fashonable caffetteria with all types of flavored decaf cappuccinos where all the girls go....and then there's the rough bar near the gas station full of men discussing the last football match...
> See the picture now ?


 
Hi horazio,

I totally agree with you... The type of bar is really important here otherwise we would be comparing apples to oranges.



alexacohen said:


> Main Street? Where did you get the idea that there *is* a Main Street?
> Of course we don't have any traffic lights - we haven't yet discovered the wheel.
> Our males go to the cave-bar after the hunt, while we females clean up the mess and cook the piece outside the cave, you know, in a deerskin pot slung over the fire.
> Of course we are not allowed to touch their hunting gear: we would be ostracized by the tribe's medicine man if we did.


 
 This is just hilarious 



mally pense said:


> Well as I said earlier, I don't think the type of bar is the issue, at least not in regard to the question of attitudes. I was a little surprised therefore that you raised it with me as if it _was_ important. For me, as long as the issue exists _anywhere_, bar, cafe or pub, that's what is important.


 
The type of bar "is" important because in male ony bars, women should not feel discriminated but they should look for some better places. And male only bars are really tasteless for girls. 

British "pubs" and "continental bars" should not be confused


----------



## heidita

avok said:


> [/color]
> I totally agree with you... The type of bar is really important here otherwise we would be comparing apples to oranges.


 
*Avok*, I find your point of view very interesting.

Of course, this _is_ very important. 

I must admit, I once entered a simple enough bar to have a coffee and was not welcome. I was not aware, that this was a prostitution area (daytime!!) and there were only prostitutes and their clients in the bar. I was very uncomfortable, but , of course, stayed on, had my coffee quietly and left. 
I will certainly not be bullied out of a bar or cafeteria by anybody. 

I understand that the argument,_ only gay_ bars does not come into this topic. But a man would not enter there, as I would not enter into a lesbian bar, not becuase I am a woman or he is a man, but because we have a different sexual preference. Not because of my gender. I was talking about heterosexual places. And not one of these "extreme " places either ( a bar which was described as a _whorehouse_, is in Spain a bar located at national roads, normally in the middle of nowhere, where women "work" selling drinks and also prostituting themselves, often obliged by pimps or direct slavery) These places do not exist in my country. 


Like avok for example has pointed out, it is very unusual to meet a woman in _any_ kind of cafe in Turkey. I mean this is a fact in Germany. I don't know if I have misunderstood avok. 

*Avok*, please, do explain a little further. And I presume this is different in small villages or big towns?





> The type of bar "is" important because in male only bars, women should not feel discriminated but they should look for some better places. And male only bars are really tasteless for girls.



I can see your point of view, avok. Your culture is quite different from Germany or Spain. What would be the men's attitude if a woman should enter? Say a foreigner? 
Actually I have never seen any woman, foreign or home, in a Turkish bar. I will visit your country in November. I will then have the privilege to see for myself.


----------



## mirx

Now that I've been reading all the posts it is obvious that the opening question was very vague and unspecific, and of course it promotes misunderstandings and controversy. The type of bars *does* matter.

What Alexa described in former posts is known as a cantina in México, and she couldn't have been more accurate when she compared it to an "only men's toilet" and may I add, a very nasty one.

I myself have never been to a cantina, nor do I want to. The whole atmosphere is threatening by itself (and I am a male). It is basically a whorehouse, the only women there are actual prostitues who charge actual money for there actual sexual performances. I don't even think that a self-respected man would go in there._ I am exaggerating here._

A woman going into one of these establishments and then complaining that she was touched inappropiately, or told nasty words, would be like putting your hand in a box full of snakes and then complainig you got bitten... still you're free to go to a cantina or to put play with the snakes, if so you wish.

Men and women go to bars in México. But drinking or going for a drink is not part of our culture, let alone when you´re older. It was amazing to me too, when I saw how in Ireland and England people of all ages mix in together, in México middle aged people will not dare set foot in a youth's place (_There's always the odd one looking for fresh flesh though_). When people want to have a drink they usually have it at home with their familiy and friends they invited over. Bars are rather impersonal and are more for meeting people, picking up strangers or a last choice meeting point than to hang out with your friends.


----------



## avok

heidita said:


> *Avok*, I find your point of view very interesting.
> 
> Of course, this _is_ very important.
> 
> I must admit, I once entered a simple enough bar to have a coffee and was not welcome. I was not aware, that this was a prostitution area (daytime!!) and there were only prostitutes and their clients in the bar. I was very uncomfortable, but , of course, stayed on, had my coffee quietly and left.
> 
> I think this is also a personal matter heidita, I think German women are more courageous than their Turkish counterparts. Not many women can have their coffee quietly in a bar like this.
> 
> I will certainly not be bullied out of a bar or cafeteria by anybody.
> 
> I understand that the argument,_ only gay_ bars does not come into this topic. But a man would not enter there, as I would not enter into a lesbian bar, not becuase I am a woman or he is a man, but because we have a different sexual preference. Not because of my gender.
> 
> I see your point Heidita but gay men are actually "men" and lesbian women are "women"
> 
> I was talking about heterosexual places. And not one of these "extreme " places either ( a bar which was described as a _whorehouse_, is in Spain a bar located at national roads, normally in the middle of nowhere, where women "work" selling drinks and also prostituting themselves, often obliged by pimps or direct slavery) These places do not exist in my country.
> 
> We don't have whorehouse bars either !
> 
> And not a night club or night bar either, *Prudence.*
> 
> I think to remember that_ normal_ places do exist in your country. I have often visited France and have entered any kind of place, and have not seen these lugubrious faces you have described.
> 
> Like avok for example has pointed out, it is very unusual to meet a woman in _any_ kind of cafe in Turkey. I mean this is a fact in Germany. I don't know if I have misunderstood avok.
> 
> Turkish women and the bars, agaaaaaaain !!!!!!
> -Look, if the bar is like a cafeteria then you can see men and women all together even here in Turkey (at least in Istanbul and other liberal cities.)
> -if the bar is a male only bar which is the case in many places. Then surely a woman looks not just uncomfortable but also silly.
> 
> But in Turkish culture we also have "coffee houses" or "tea houses" where usually old retired men come together and drink tea, coffee and play card games, backgammon etc. Usually alcoholic drinks are not served here. And women just don't come here, because it is for ....men
> 
> Originally Posted by *heidita*
> it is very unusual to meet a woman in _any_ kind of cafe in Turkey. I mean this is a fact in Germany. I don't know if I have misunderstood avok.
> 
> 
> No!! it is not unusual to see a woman in cafés !!! Almost all girls go to cafés to drink coffee or tea which is vital in our social life.
> 
> *Avok*, please, do explain a little further. And I presume this is different in small villages or big towns?
> Yes, as I explained small towns have "coffee houses" whereas big cities have cafes or bars.
> But in Turkey, we usually have night clubs and we call them "bars". Here it is difficult to find a bar which is like a cafeteria, but there are many cafés that sell alcoholic drinks, one just does not have to go to a bar to drink beer.
> 
> I can see your point of view, avok. Your culture is quite different from Germany or Spain. What would be the men's attitude if a woman should enter? Say a foreigner?
> 
> Let's say ...you .. enter  It depends on the city, in liberal areas nothing would happen but of course it would be different in small towns. (As I have read the posts) Even in Spain sometimes women don't feel comfortable in a bar, then it is no surprise that a woman looks weird in a local club/bar in Turkey.
> Yeeeeeeeeees, our culture is different  but I am not sure if it is "that" different.
> Actually I have never seen any woman, foreign or home, in a Turkish bar. I will visit your country in November. I will then have the privilege to see for myself.
> 
> Yes, heidita but these are not actually bars these are, as I just explained "coffee houses", they are just for men. And we already discussed in another thread, the Turks in Germany are more conservative/traditional than the Turks in Turkey.
> If you are going to one of the tourist destinations, they are many Germans and other west europeans there and you would feel at ease.


----------



## mirx

There's a key point here -both a woman and a man that go alone to a bar at least in México are looking for very few specific things, waiting for someone else, trying to get laid, trying to get drunk and eventually end up in someone else's bed. And the key point is that a man looking for sex is a man and woman looking for the same is a whore -of course I am talking about the general conception in conservative societies-.

In my last post I stated that people's going to bars is not encouraged at all, either males or females but it is not very badly frown upon either, is just something that is not part of our culture. People drink at home.

Probably the question didn't need to be more specific for you because you weren't aware of these cantinas or the bars that Alexa described, but believe me, there ARE huge differences between the two of them.

And once again I am with Alexa, I am never spoke about what should or should not be, but 'bout facts.

And just for the record it took me several weeks of conving labor before a female friend finally accepted to accompany me to a bar, I had to asure her that decent women also went to those placces, and that in any case she was with me. Well, she had to see to believe.


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## plazoleta

In the Spain that I know, there are different kinds of bars.

There are bars where men drink, smoke, play cards, watch football... I've saw these bars mainly in small towns and I feel uncomfortable even if I go there with a man. However, I've sometimes gone to one of them, with my partner or with a female friend, and no one have annoyed, insulted or bullied me there, that's the truth. We can call those places "only men bars", of course, and like any other place or activity only for men/women, I don't like them. I don't like only men/women schools, jobs, parties or whatever.

There are "tapas" bar where nowadays is "normal" to see women with other men/women, but where a woman like me, for example (I'm in my thirties) feel a bit uncomfortable on my own. Perhaps nobody would look at me in a bad or strange way, but it's a kind of "autocensure". However, my young neighbour (she's in her twenties) usually has a break for a beer in the nearby bar when she comes home from the market. I wouldn't do it, but she does it in a natural way, and I think that's fine. Their generation have no the restrain problems the mine have.

Finally, there are "cafeterías". I think this places have been the "tradicionally public places for women", where women meet each other for a coffee and a chat.

It's like a "progressive normalization", First, women didn't go to any kind of bar. Later, they went only to "cafeterías" but always with a man. After that, they went to "cafeterías" on their own. The same with the "tapas" bars, but some years later. The type of bar, in this way, is relevant. But it's not the main issue if we consider that the existence of some places, activities, etc. only for men/women is an ideological important matter. I do.

Only my two cents, of course.


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## heidita

Avok, I found your input very interesting. (Yes, it was "again about bars" as I mentioned in my first post, I opened this tread referring to the other thread we both participated in.)




> *Plazoleta*
> It's like a "progressive normalization", First, women didn't go to any kind of bar. Later, they went only to "cafeterías" but always with a man. After that, they went to "cafeterías" on their own. The same with the "tapas" bars, but some years later.


 
I think at last in this country, we are getting close to what I would consider "normal" and which has been a fact for years in other countries.


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## cherine

*Ok guys, it took me like THREE hours of my time to read and edit this thread, only because you don't seem to understand each others and speak of the same thing.*
*It's true that Heidita asked in her first post about bars. This looks simple, right? Well, it seems that it's not, because we have a "definition" problem here. A bar is to one person the equivalent of a night club to another, or a cafés to a third one....*

*Instead of trying to understand each other and carry a friendly discussion here (according to the forum's  first rules) many posters have unfortunately prefered to judge others based on their own misunderstanding. And the thread has acquired a really ugly appearance.*

*Here's a reminder of the thread's topic:*



heidita said:


> I wonder as came up in this thread, if one can see women in the bars of your country and if it is considered normal and not critizisable. [...] Is this frowned upon in your country? What about cases of elderly women going to bars alone?


*As you see, the thread topic called for objective statements of conditions in various countries. Most of the more recent posts in this thread have been about either opinions of how things are or how they should be, or comments on the opinions of others.*

*So, here's a suggestion for those who would still like to answer the thread's question: please start by telling what's a "bar" in your country. All posts judging other cultures -or your own- or posters as sexist, not classy, uncivilized or even perfect... will be deleted without need of explanation. And the thread will be closed.*

*Thank you all.*


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## DearPrudence

OK, edit ... (might also be useful for other forer@s ...)

[...]
But I'm really talking about *typical bars* [...]
But as you've added a few dozen posts later, you were talking about _all _kinds of bars, including what's previously mentioned  In this case, go to my post #51 (very incomplete I know. My book "_A sociological study on bars in every village, town, city in France, not even forgetting places like le Cercueil ou Villedieu-les-Poêles_" has not been published yet & I'm not authorized to disclose any extract yet ) or wait for other posters. 
But for the time being, I don't understand why you reject my view on *typical bars*. Don't I have the right to describe them (not ALL of them, I know ) & say that I don't see how any woman could go there for the reason already mentioned a umpteenth time. Doesn't it answer part of your (now-broader) original question? (see also title's name:  (+ title: *Mujeres en bares, ¿algo habitual? Women in bars.)*
True, I don't know every bar in France. But that's what I've seen in towns/villages I've passed through or lived in.
I also have in mind one specific bar in my home village, which was owned by my best friend's parents. I had to go through the bar to enter her house. And be it at 10 in the morning or 4 in the afternoon, it was always the same people, the same atmosphere!! I'm not talking about *night bars* (other colour to try to avoid people from falling asleep because I'm repeating myself over & over again)! 
[bla bla bla]
To be honest I have never been to a *night club/bar *in France so for sure I'm not talking about that. And I added honestly that for more information on *fashionable places*, you should wait for more knowledgeable people (it implies that such places exist but I'm not talking about them here ). But as for *typical bars*, those that you are almost bound to find in every town, I think I'm not lying. Those places still exist. I'm not saying that you could find _only _that (maybe I didn't make it clear enough) or that they represented France, the Frenchmen or anything but I'm just stating that they exist, & that I've seen them (& it doesn't mean that there is no red squirrels on the Isle Of Wight because I haven't seen any !)

What's annoying is that you (vosotros, some of you) don't seem to be listening to what I'm saying & to what Nichec or Mickaël said!! [...]

Really sorry for the bother, Cherine, I really thought of you poor CD mods last night


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## heidita

DearPrudence said:


> But I'm really talking about *typical bars*.


 
*I am sorry to have bothered you, Prudence.* I apparently misunderstood. Here in Spain, a _bar_ is obviously much wider ranged than in France. 

Please, have a look at the pictures. (I entered "bar españa" in google search)

http://perso.orange.fr/deltag/photofrance/27%20bar%20a%20tapas.JPG

http://www.mallorca-today.de/php/archiv/2004/august/szene/image/bar_cristal_palma.jpg

Places like this do not exist in Germany, for example, or at least, are very rare.

I was not aware of this. Other bars came up and I thought you were talking about a place you go to at night only. 

I thank* all of you* for the participation in this thread. Especially those who showed a different view from mine to the topic, like yours, for instance, Prudence.


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## nichec

I can hardly call myself a "French", but I did live in Paris long enough to get a degree, start and end a serious relationship (serious as in "we were engaged and getting married") and so on. (Yes, I know my French still sucks, but that's hardly my fault ) To me, Paris is the place I really grew up and became an adult.

So, as far as I am concerned, there are (at least) four kinds of bars in Paris. The first kind is described in my post #44, they seem to exist everywhere beside major train and metro stations, and the customers seem to be, most of the time and most of them, the *real* French.

The second kind exists along Champs-Elysees and Musee du Louvre, these are places where young and fashionable people gather around in the night, you might bump into some supermodels or international stars or famous designers here (oh well, what do you expect? You *are* in Paris! )
Some of them have guards outside to "check you out" and see if you are "qualified" to get in, if not, even if you are willing to pay ten times the price for a drink, you still have to "get lost".

The third kind exists mainly in tourist spots, like La Seine or Montmartre (where I lived), and big hotels (Ritz for example)They are usually full of rich tourists who don't really care how much they are paying for a glass of wine, as long as they are in Paris.

The fourth will be along Moulin Rouge, where there are topless shows and dinners and drinks, I only went there once as a surprise birthday gift, which I suspect is the case for most of the French. (who can afford that when they are not traveling or celebrating, really? )

I don't know it all, for example, I think there must be bars for poor young students and artists (salon of some sort), yet I failed to visit any during my stay  But I think that if we are talking about "local bars" where the "real French" who are not traveling or too rich would go, that would be the first kind, which fits *DearPrudence*'s description perfectly.

I don't wish to argue, in fact I have never argued with anyone in WR since I joined, I just mean to say that I am, as well as *DearPrudence* and some other posters are, taking the time to answer the question as honestly as I can here, and I would really appreciate it if my time and my opinion are respected. (after all, we answered because there was a question in the beginning, obviously)


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## heidita

nichec said:


> I taking the time to answer the question as honestly as I can here, and I would really appreciate it if my time and my opinion are respected. (after all, we answered because there was a question in the beginning, obviously)


 
Nichec, please look at my previous post. I can't say about others, but I do appreciate all posts, as I said before. Thank you .


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## Athaulf

Here in downtown Toronto, I find it hard to think of any place I've been to where it would be odd or unexpected for a woman to enter, either in male, female, or mixed company (and I frequent drinking establishments of various kinds more or less constantly ). A typical bar will normally be filled with a mixed-sex crowd; this holds for pretty much anything from a plain pub to a fancy nightclub. Obviously, in places where sports games are watched, there will usually be a preponderance of men, but even then you can expect to find some women around. Generally, these observations aren't limited to the younger people -- it's nothing unusual to see middle-aged ladies sipping drinks in a pub, though of course different places cater to different kinds of crowd. 

The only possible exception are some really trashy dumps in certain ethnic neighborhoods, which have the atmosphere similar to that of the French dives described by Dear Prudence above. I guess it would be somewhat unusual for a woman to enter there, but then I've been to such a place once with a mixed-sex company and we didn't get any strange looks (we went to a show in a place that didn't have a liquor licence, so we ended up boozing in a decrepit dive next door during the breaks  ).


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## Horazio

I still think that the type of bar plays a major role:
Starbucks and other soft metrosexual cafes are OK for women.


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## cuchuflete

None of the CD mods is around to further edit out the off-topic material
that has been added since Cherine reminded everyone of the topic (See post #63).
To avoid letting that task grow even more difficult, this thread is on holiday.

Thanks to all those who posted something about the thread topic.


Closed until and unless the CD mod crew finds a persuasive reason to re-open it.


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