# Nein, aber der Rock.



## Thomas1

Ist dein Kleid neu?
  a)Nein, es ist ziemlich neu.
  b)Nein, es ist nicht neu.
  c)Nein, aber der Rock.
  I have to choose the answer that cannot be used as a response to the question above.
  I chose a) but I don’t quite understand what c) means here and what its relation to the question is… _no, but the kilt_ doesn’t make much sense to me, so what it means please?

  Thank you,
Tom


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## Quelle

"Rock" means skirt, kilt is "Schottenrock".
The question is: Is your dress new? - c) No, but the skirt (is new).


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## mgsth

Well, if you translate a) (_No, it is quite new_.) it doesn't make much sense. You would answer _Yes, it's quite new._, so a) is wrong.

c) just says that the dress isn't new, but the skirt is. Wouldn't it be just like _No, but the skirt is._ in English?


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## Robocop

*I would go for (b)* as it is most logical here.
(c) seems rather odd to me. Presuming that the "Rock" (skirt) is a part of the "Kleid" (dress) [otherwise the person would wear a dress *and *a skirt, which does not make sense], I find it quite uncommon that only one part of the dress should be new. I don't say that this cannot be but it is quite unusual and therefore, answer (c) should be ruled out here.


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## Hutschi

You could repair this with "aber":

a modified) Nein, es ist aber ziemlich neu.

"Now, however, it is quite new."

I mention this to show the logic behind. 

"Nein" is not a "pure" yes-no negation in the non-mathematical language. Only wiseacres would say: "Nein, es ist ziemlich neu."


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## sokol

All three sentences are in principle correct if somewhat odd:

a) Nein, es ist ziemlich neu.
---> Idiomatically better would be "Nein, aber ziemlich neu." Repeating the auxiliary here (as one would do e. g. in Slavic languages) is not very good style here.

b) Nein, es ist nicht neu.
---> Again, idiomatically not very good; usually one would simply say "nein, ist es nicht" or similar, or even only "nein" (which could sound a little bit clipped or even rude but would be perfectly okay if spoken with the right intonation).

c) Nein, aber der Rock ist neu.
---> This sentence is perfect idiomatically, but the semantics don't fit because the question refers to the dress someone is actually wearing - and you don't wear a "Rock" if you're already wearing a "Kleid".

For all these Reasons I would say that c) is the "least fitting" of the three sentences.


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## Robocop

Thomas1 wrote: 





> I have to choose the answer *that cannot be used* as a response to the question above.


 And the correct answer is (a). The question was not about how the sentences could be "repaired".

        Ist dein Kleid neu?
  a) Nein, es ist ziemlich neu.
  b) Nein, es ist nicht neu. (In my opinion it is perfectly idiomatic)
  c) Nein, aber der Rock tick (It is a possible answer, which I find oversubtle (spitzfindig!) though because it only makes sense if the "Rock" is a part of the "Kleid".)


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## Sepia

Robocop said:


> Thomas1 wrote: And the correct answer is (a). The question was not about how the sentences could be "repaired".
> 
> Ist dein Kleid neu?
> a) Nein, es ist ziemlich neu.
> b) Nein, es ist nicht neu. (In my opinion it is perfectly idiomatic)
> c) Nein, aber der Rock tick (It is a possible answer, which I find oversubtle (spitzfindig!) though because it only makes sense if the "Rock" is a part of the "Kleid".)


 

Logically you can exclude option "c" as well. Even if the skirt is part of the dress - a two piece dress (Zweiteiler) - the skirt part would be just as new or old as the top part, right?


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## cyanista

Sepia said:


> Logically you can exclude option "c" as well. Even if the skirt is part of the dress - a two piece dress (Zweiteiler) - the skirt part would be just as new or old as the top part, right?



I am afraid many textbook authors don't put so much effort into examples staying logical and true to life. 

The worst example I've ever seen was in a Spanish-Russian textbook; a question read "Is it a chair or a carnation?"  Mind you, it was Chapter 2 or 3 of a beginner textbook when you are least interested in the names of flowers.

In the Kleid/Rock case you can imagine the woman in question just happened to carry a skirt in a shopping bag so she showed the contents of the bag and said, well, the skirt is new.  Or another equally unconvincing situation...

Of course it would be much easier if they took Schuhe instead but I'm afraid no one gave it a second thought.


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## Thomas1

Thank you everyone for your answers. 

My dictionary says that der Rock means a skirt as well as kilt:
a    skirt; (Schottenrock) kilt
It also gives another meaning for it (related to clothes):
b    (landsch.: Jacke) jacket
So probably it is the second meaning of der Rock, isn't it? Besides I can quite grasp the idea of a skirt being a part of a dress... these are two different items, aren't they?

A follow up question:


sokol said:


> All three sentences are in principle correct if somewhat odd:
> 
> a) Nein, es ist ziemlich neu.
> ---> Idiomatically better would be "Nein, aber ziemlich neu." Repeating the auxiliary here (as one would do e. g. in Slavic languages) is not very good style here.


This is actually what bothered me in 
c) Nein, aber der Rock.
And I would use the auxiliary in both English and Polish in the answer.
The sentnce was missing ist at the very end and was also my first choice as to which sentence was not fitting in the provided conext.
So is it a perfectly fine answer in German, i.e. with no _ist_? Would Nein, aber der Rock ist sound bad?

Tom


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## mgsth

You can only translate _Schottenrock_ to _kilt_, not _Rock _in general.
_
Nein, aber der Rock ist._  is not possible to say.

German is different from English in leaving words out, compare the two answers:

_No, but the skirt is (new).
Nein, aber der Rock (ist neu)._

In this case, the word order is exactly the same. The words in brackets are actually necessary to get the information, but they are left out in the answer since we know them from the question. While you only leave out the adjective in English, you leave out the verb in German as well. This might not always be the case, but here it is.


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## Hutschi

Robocop said:


> Thomas1 wrote: And the correct answer is (a). The question was not about how the sentences could be "repaired".
> 
> Ist dein Kleid neu?
> a) Nein, es ist ziemlich neu.


 
This is true. But I wrote why it is wrong. And I think, this is an essential information. If I only say, it is wrong, and another person says: it is right in a pure grammatical sense, it will give no good information (see entry of sokol). 

For me, it makes sense to give information.


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## Hutschi

Robocop said:


> *I would go for (b)* as it is most logical here.
> (c) seems rather odd to me. Presuming that the "Rock" (skirt) is a part of the "Kleid" (dress) [otherwise the person would wear a dress *and *a skirt, which does not make sense], ...


 
It would make perfect sense, if you do not wear both at the same time.


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## elroy

Why are we assuming that the person is wearing the dress?  Perhaps the dress is simply the topic of conversation, having been referred to earlier.  Or maybe both the dress and the skirt are lying on a bed and the two people are talking about them.

I don't think the situation is that far-fetched (although I do agree that language-learning textbooks often contain ridiculous examples and exercises.  Just yesterday I was helping someon understand an example about a soccer ball that wanted to be stroked! ).

Anyway, to make things simpler, we could actually substitute any two nouns,... meinetwegen "das Auto" and "das Fahrrad."

_Ist das Auto neu?_

_-Nein, es ist ziemlich neu._
This would not work unless "ziemlich" were emphasized: "The car is not new; it is _rather/quite/relatively/kind of_ new."  This is, however, a very artificial situation.  As Hutschi said, it would make more sense with "aber": "Nein, aber ziemlich (neu)."

_-Nein, es ist nicht neu._
Perfectly acceptable, although as Sokol said in colloquial speech one would not be likely to repeat the word "neu" as it would be understood.

_-Nein, aber das Fahhrad._
As has been said, it would be wrong to repeat the verb if "neu" is elided.  You could say "Nein, aber das Fahrrad ist neu" (although the repetition of "neu" would sound a little odd) but not just *"Nein, aber das Fahrrad ist."


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## Robocop

elroy said:


> *Why* are we assuming that the person is wearing the dress?


Very simply because *we have to assume a context* (whichever it is) to be able to answer this *context-dependent* question correctly. Normally you choose a context that you are most familiar with or that you find most likely. 
In this case (and in my opinion), the question is most likely to be asked if two persons meet and among other things come to speak about the dress that one of them is wearing.


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## elroy

But in this case, the correct answer does not depend on the context, does it?  The answer is actually always the same no matter what two nouns you use.  Can you think of a context in which the least likely response would *not* be (a)?

Let's not make this question more complicated than it is.  Thomas1 is a beginner.


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## Quelle

Thomas1 said:


> Thank you everyone for your answers.
> 
> My dictionary says that der Rock means a skirt as well as kilt:
> a skirt; (Schottenrock) kilt
> It also gives another meaning for it (related to clothes):
> b (landsch.: Jacke) jacket
> So probably it is the second meaning of der Rock, isn't it? Besides I can quite grasp the idea of a skirt being a part of a dress... these are two different items, aren't they?
> 
> 
> Tom


Yes, Rock has also the meaning of a jacket (for men) and another meaning that I didn't know before: in Swiss German it is a synonym for Kleid.


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## Robocop

elroy said:


> But in this case, the correct answer does not depend on the context, does it? *Correct with regard to the question "which answer cannot be used"!* The answer is actually always the same no matter what two nouns you use. Can you think of a context in which the least likely response would *not* be (a) ? *No!*


However, Thomas1 also asked for an explanation regarding (c) and this is where context comes in.


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## Robocop

Quelle said:


> ... and another meaning that I didn't know before: in *Swiss German* it is a synonym for Kleid.


I disagree: 
- a "Rock" is worn from the waist down
- a "Kleid" is worn over the shoulders
To my best knowledge!


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## Quelle

Maybe it's an older expression or the DWDS is wrong.
And what's about Kleid instead of Anzug? (Züricher Deutsch).


Also in Google Wörterbuch Deutsch als Fremdsprache appears "Rock" as "Kleid" in Swiss.


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## Hutschi

"Rock" had a lot of meanings during the last centuries. 
In "Deusches Wörterbuch von Jakob und Wilhelm Grimm" you can find examples.
http://germazope.uni-trier.de/Proje...pattern=&lemmapattern=&verspattern=#GR06587L0

The most meanings are forgotten now (or obsolete) or exist only in idioms. You should find regional or cultural relicts of the older meanings, too. 

Example: "Soldatenrock"=uniform (The word is now very rare in usage.)

"Rockzipfel" - Er hängt immer noch seiner Mutter am Rockzipfel. (Meaning here something like: He cannot start his own life but depends on his mother.) (Here it is not clear, which is meant skirt or dress).


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## Robocop

Rock = Kleid = Anzug 

- "Kleid" is *for women only*. It may consist of one piece (worn hanging from the shoulders) or two pieces (then also called "Deux-Pièce"), that is skirt and blouse.
- "Anzug" means trousers and jacket/blazer/coat, which is mostly (but not exclusively, of course) worn by men. I should say that if a woman wears a "Anzug", we usually refer to it as "(Damen)Kostüm".
- We would *never* say, "Tom trägt ein neues Kleid". We would say instead, "Tom trägt neue Kleider". I know the *old-fashioned* word "Beinkleid", which refers to men's clothing however (but you hear it very rarely these days).


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## sokol

Robocop said:


> I disagree:
> - a "Rock" is worn from the waist down
> - a "Kleid" is worn over the shoulders
> To my best knowledge!



In Austrian German it would be the same: the "Rock" is only worn from waist down, the "Kleid" over the shoulders.

But in Austria a "Rock" also could be the jacket of a suit (for men), and according to deGruyter's 'Variantenwörterbuch des Deutschen', this meaning is still present in both Austria and Switzerland (but slightly old-fashioned); and the same dictionary gives an exclusively Swiss meaning for "Rock = Kleid", but the example sentence listed there (p. 637) leaves me rather unconvinced:


			
				deGruyter's Varianenwörterbuch said:
			
		

> Ich trug elegante Kleider, oft Jupes und Röcke, Claudia dagegen Jeans und Turnschuhe (Bund 03.07.1999, p. 26)



Whatever - I don't think that the writers of the textbook who put the question as referred to in the first post were specialists on Swiss German (no offence, but this just seems to be the case in real life where most German textbooks concentrate on the language and use of German in Germany).


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## Robocop

> Originally Posted by *deGruyter's Varianenwörterbuch*
> Ich trug elegante Kleider, oft Jupes und Röcke, Claudia dagegen Jeans und Turnschuhe (Bund 03.07.1999, p. 26)


"Jupe" is a Swiss German loanword of the French "jupe" meaning "Rock" (skirt). So, "Jupe" and "Rock" *generally *mean the same thing (however, I can't tell if the fashion *specialists *make a difference there).


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