# Indo-Iranian cognate of fire



## Wolverine9

Is there an Indo-Iranian cognate of the English _fire_, Greek πῦρ, Hittite paḫḫur, etc.?  If not, is Indo-Iranian the only branch of IE that lacks a cognate?


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## fdb

It seems to be absent also in Celtic and Baltic.


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## mojobadshah

From what I recall there is an Persian word for stove or oven that is equivalent to Eng. fire.  Can't remember what it was.  I've also heard that there is no Indo-Iranian equivalent for fire, but check that out.  Also I can't help but see a resemblance in the word Farr "divine radiance" and Fire.


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## fdb

mojobadshah said:


> From what I recall there is an Persian word for stove or oven that is equivalent to Eng. fire.



Are you thinking of _furn_? It is Arabic < Greek < Latin.




mojobadshah said:


> Also I can't help but see a resemblance in the word Farr "divine radiance" and Fire.




NP _farr, _MP _farn_ = Avestan _xvarənah-_, which cannot derive from an IE word with p-.


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## mojobadshah

fdb said:


> Are you thinking of _furn_? It is Arabic < Greek < Latin.


  I think it was more like feyr, but I'm not sure. Dang.  I think it was from Farsi-Pahlavi not Dari if I remember correctly.


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## Treaty

Is it possible that *peuor is not the PIE word for "fire" but a reference to its function as a purifier (*peu-)? Then, in IIr the function was still acknowledged separately while the semantic connection was lost in other IEs and "fire" was used merely as a name? 



fdb said:


> Are you thinking of _furn_? It is Arabic < Greek < Latin.


Or maybe he is thinking of فر _fer_ (oven) or فور _fur _(autoclave) which, I assume, came directly from French _feu _(mixed with_ fer_)and _four_.


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## mojobadshah

Yes فر _fer_ (oven).  That's what I was thinking exactly.


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## mojobadshah

Have you looked at Sharon Turner's Persian Origin of English Words?  I don't know if its sound or not but he lists fyr for "fire" under Persian words.


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## fdb

I have looked at it now. It is from 1827, interesting for the time, but we actually know a lot more about Indo-European languages today.

In the on-line version of his paper the "Anglo-Saxon" and "Persian" words appear in a single list, without distinguishing the two languages. "fyr" is English, "faroz" the supposed Persian equivalent.


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## mojobadshah

What does faroz mean in English


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## fdb

There is no such word.


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## mojobadshah

Wait fyr is the English and faroz is the Persian.  What does fyr mean in English?  And faroz isn't made up is it?


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## Wolverine9

Treaty said:


> Is it possible that *peuor is not the PIE word for "fire" but a reference to its function as a purifier (*peu-)? Then, in IIr the function was still acknowledged separately while the semantic connection was lost in other IEs and "fire" was used merely as a name?



This is a good point.  I too am wondering if _fire_ is connected to _purifier_.


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## Triginta Septem

mojobadshah said:


> Wait fyr is the English and faroz is the Persian.  What does fyr mean in English?  And faroz isn't made up is it?


_Fyr_ is Old English for "fire". _Faroz_ means in Persian "kindling". _Faroz_, though, can't have come from *peuor, so far as I know.. (wouldn't /p/ stay /p/ from PIE to Persian?)


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## Wolverine9

Triginta Septem said:


> _Fyr_ is Old English for "fire". _Faroz_ means in Persian "kindling". _Faroz_, though, can't have come from *peuor, so far as I know.. (wouldn't /p/ stay /p/ from PIE to Persian?)



There is a p>f transition in some Persian words due to Arabic influence, but I believe _faroz/furoz/foruuz_ is connected to the Avestan root _ruć- _and isn't related to the word for fire.


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## Treaty

Triginta Septem said:


> _Fyr_ is Old English for "fire". _Faroz_ means in Persian "kindling". _Faroz_, though, can't have come from *peuor, so far as I know.. (wouldn't /p/ stay /p/ from PIE to Persian?)


Wolverine is right. _Faroz_ (= _afrouz_) is _af_ (or _'p_ ~ up: a prefix to make transitive verbs) + _rouz_ (or _ruć_ ~[day]light). Together they mean make fire/light.


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## mojobadshah

What about Pir?  I read in a book about Mithraism that the word Pir means both "[Priestly] Elder" as well as "Zoroastrian Firetemple."


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## Treaty

mojobadshah said:


> What about Pir?  I read in a book about Mithraism that the word Pir means both "[Priestly] Elder" as well as "Zoroastrian Firetemple."


"pir" =  Zoroasterian firetemple? I never heard but sounds interesting. 
However, Mithraism as was documented in Roman scripts, is probably more Roman than is Persian. So, this meaning of "pir" could be derived from nearby Greek. 
The other possibility is that, if we consider it refers to an Iranian name of the building, it may stand for the tradition of naming places and buildings after humans (e.g. daughter, lady, elder, ...).
Therefore, it is important to ask who has used "pir" as firetemple and when, and in what language.


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## mojobadshah

Treaty said:


> "pir" =  Zoroasterian firetemple? I never heard but sounds interesting.
> However, Mithraism as was documented in Roman scripts, is probably more Roman than is Persian. So, this meaning of "pir" could be derived from nearby Greek.
> The other possibility is that, if we consider it refers to an Iranian name of the building, it may stand for the tradition of naming places and buildings after humans (e.g. daughter, lady, elder, ...).
> Therefore, it is important to ask who has used "pir" as firetemple and when, and in what language.



The word Pir is Persian not Roman.  I'm sure of that.  The author was speaking in the context of Iran.  From what I know of the Persian language Pir is a Persian word that means "[Priestly] Elder" and from what I know about Zoroastrianism all the Firetemples are called Pir as well as Atash-Gah "Fire Place or Temple."  It's also my understanding that Hafiz considered the Pirs the authentic places of worship and Sufi Elders are also known as Pir-e-Moghan "Magian Firepriest."


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## Treaty

mojobadshah said:


> The word Pir is Persian not Roman.  I'm sure of that.  The author was speaking in the context of Iran.  From what I know of the Persian language Pir is a Persian word that means "[Priestly] Elder" and from what I know about Zoroastrianism all the Firetemples are called Pir as well as Atash-Gah "Fire Place or Temple."  It's also my understanding that Hafiz considered the Pir's the authentic places of worship and Sufi Elders are also known as Pir-e-Moghan "Magian Firepriests."



I just checked all "pir"s in Hafiz's book. All of them are used as "elder"/"guru" or "old": none  is used as "temple". _Pir-e-Moghan_ means "The elder of Magi". Moghan is _mogh_ (Magus) + _an _(pluraliser). 

I found another usage of _pir _in Zoroasterian texts. It seems not referring to the temple but to holy trees near temples (e.g. Pir Chakchak in Yazd). My first guess is that old trees have souls and can grant prayers in Iranian culture (even believed by some Muslims). However, I need to do more research about it.


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## mojobadshah

Treaty said:


> I just checked all "pir"s in Hafiz's book. All of them are used as "elder"/"guru" or "old": none  is used as "temple". _Pir-e-Moghan_ means "The elder of Magi". Moghan is _mogh_ (Magus) + _an _(pluraliser).



I don't see why the source would have been making up that Hafiz called firetemples Pirs.  What book did you look in?  It may actually have been Pir meant "elder" and then "temple," but Nabarz, the author of the Mithras book, seems to imply that Pir meant "Firepriest" or "Firetemple"

See this: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pir_(Zoroastrianism)>




Treaty said:


> I found another usage of _pir _in Zoroasterian texts. It seems not referring to the temple but to holy trees near temples (e.g. Pir Chakchak in Yazd). My first guess is that old trees have souls and can grant prayers in Iranian culture (even believed by some Muslims). However, I need to do more research about it.



The Zoroastrians venerated trees because they believed they offered immortality.  Persians still venerate trees today in the Shab-e-Yalda festival.  They use a cyprus tree which is a pine tree.  They write their wishes down on cloth and ornament the tree with the cloths.  They also place gifts at the bottom of the tree.  Martin Luther saw this and introduced the Christmas Tree to the Germans.


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## mojobadshah

Here we go: according to the mysteries of Mithras by Payam Nabarz "Pir means 'elder,' and it can also mean 'fire.'"  (Nabarz, 100)

<http://books.google.com/books?id=OltMzIU1ae0C&q=Pir#v=snippet&q=Pir&f=false>


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## Treaty

mojobadshah said:


> I don't see why the source would have been making up that Hafiz called firetemples Pirs.  What book did you look in?
> 
> See this: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pir_(Zoroastrianism)>


I search it in ganjoor.net where you can search poems online.

Anyway, based on what I search about individual "Pir"s of Iran, I think they are more shrine-like pilgrimage sites rather than "fire"-temples (three of them are not firetemples at all). They all have stories like "someone disappeared there and a tree or fountain emerged". 



mojobadshah said:


> The Zoroastrians venerated trees because they believed they offered  immortality.  Persians still venerate trees today in the Shab-e-Yalda  festival.  They use a cyprus tree which is a pine tree.  They write  their wishes down on cloth and ornament the tree with the cloths.  They  also place gifts at the bottom of the tree.  Martin Luther saw this and  introduced the Christmas Tree to the Germans.



This is a huge claim, especially the part of Luther! I'd never seen or heard about using trees on Yalda day since recently in Persian blogs. It seems another example of the common Iranocentric claims about the world. Of course, as I said, a few Iranians still venerate trees. They put ribbons on the branches as the sign of the prayer.


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## fdb

To tie up some loose ends:

_afrōxtan_, present stem _afrōz_, means “ignite, set on fire”. It comes from apa + rawčah-, as has already been stated.

“Purifier” is an English noun from the verb “purify” < French < Latin _purus + facere _“to make pure”.

_Pīr_ means “old man” or “old woman”. The etymology is obscure, but there is certainly no reason to attach it to any word for “fire”.


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## Wolverine9

fdb said:


> “Purifier” is an English noun from the verb “purify” < French < Latin _purus + facere _“to make pure”.



We were wondering if fire and pure were from the same PIE base *peu-, and if fire was the derivative form signifying a purifier.



> _Pīr_ means “old man” or “old woman”. The etymology is obscure, but there is certainly no reason to attach it to any word for “fire”.



Could _pīr_ be connected to _pidar _"father"?

EDIT: Upon further reflection, a connection to Skt. _purāṇa _"ancient, old" appears plausible due to the phonetic and semantic similarity.


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## Treaty

The closest words to "pir" in Persian are prefixes related to "past" like _pari_, _pār_, _pirār_. However, I don't know their roots. 
I always thought that _pir_ is related to either _vir_ (~wise) or _pish _(~fore)_. _


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## asanga

_pār _comes from OP _paruviya_- Avestan _paouruya_- "former, preceding, first", but _pīr _is problematic.

If PIE *_peh_₂ur were an agent noun derived from *_peu_-, shouldn't it be *_peu-tōr_? Sanskrit does use a couple of words derived from the verbal root _pū _"to purify" for "fire", _pāvaka _and _pāvana_, but these are secondary derivations that bear little resemblance to *_peh₂ur_. Sanskrit also has the rare words _pāru _and _peru _for fire, but the former derives from _pā _"to drink" (PIE *_peh_₃-), the latter from _pṝ _"to swell, to blow, to fill" (PIE *_pelh_₁-).

Avestan and Vedic Sanskrit don't just lack a shared word for "fire" from PIE *_peh₂ur,_ but their main words for fire, _ater_- and _agni _are from 2 different PIE roots (although Sanskrit does have _atharvan_). Considering the importance of fire to both religions, and how much of their religious vocabulary was shared, I find this very surprising.


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## fdb

asanga said:


> but their main words for fire, _ater_- and _agni _are from 2 different PIE roots (although Sanskrit does have _atharvan_).



The Avestan word for “fire” is ātar- in the full grade, and various reflexes of *ātṛ- (ātərə-, āϑr-, ātrə-) in the zero grade, in all instances with long ā.

The prevalent view among Indo-Iranists is that Ved. _átharvan-_ is not related to Ir. *ātar-.


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## mojobadshah

But what root did pir develop from.  If it also means "fire" its the best candidate so far for a Persian word akin to Eng. fire


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## fdb

mojobadshah said:


> .....If it also means "fire" ....



What we are trying to tell you is that it doesn't mean fire. It means "old person".


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## mojobadshah

But what is its PIE root and why does Nabarz say it means fire too and why is it used for zoroastrian holy sites.

Could Pir be a Persian rendering of Greek Pyrethrean "Fire Priest" and Pyrethrea "Fire Temple"?


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## fdb

The root is not clear, but the meaning is known to all speakers of Persian and can be found in any Persian dictionary. I do not see where Nabarz says this. If he does say it is wrong. His book is in any case not a scholarly study but a compendium of junk from the internet.


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## mojobadshah

fdb said:


> The root is not clear, but the meaning is known to all speakers of Persian and can be found in any Persian dictionary. I do not see where Nabarz says this. If he does say it is wrong. His book is in any case not a scholarly study but a compendium of junk from the internet.



I've read his book and a lot of books about Mithraism.  His take on Mithraism is not that much different than more authoritative studies, apart from the fact that he tries to link Mithraism more definitively to Persia and the East.  He may not be a philologist, but I don't think we should discount his definition of Pir.  He seems to be more informed on the root than the rest of us.  But I think that Pir was probably a Persian rendering of Greek word for "Zoroastrian fire priest and temple"  _pyraitheion_. Is there any linguistic evidence to suggest that this was not the case?


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## fdb

mojobadshah said:


> Is there any linguistic evidence to suggest that this was not the case?



It is not helpful to set up a wild theory and ask others to prove that it is not the case. It is for you to adduce just a couple of facts that support your case.


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## mojobadshah

fdb said:


> It is not helpful to set up a wild theory and ask others to prove that it is not the case. It is for you to adduce just a couple of facts that support your case.



A question was posed.  I'm just trying to be helpful.  To the best of my knowledge there is no Iranic equivalent of the Eng. fire.  So far only one person has offered any suggestions as to the PIE root of the NPer. Pir, but the question seems to still be open.  Historically the term Pir appears to have been used originally by the Zoroastrians in order to designate holy sites or shrines, I imagine where the sacred hearths are venerated.  The term Pir probably came into use in later Zoroastrian times e.g. Sassanian.  The Sassanians were both Greek and Persian speakers.  Ancient Greek authors like strabo referred to the Zoroastrian fire temples as _pyraitheion, _and if I'm not mistaken the term was also used to designate the Zoroastrian fire priests themselves. I have this notion because I'm pretty sure I read this in a book about Zoroastrianism, but its also logical too that the misnomer in calling the Zoroastrian priests "Firepriests" developed from the Greek notion that they worshipped in _pyraitheion._ This explains why the term Pir is used for both elder firepriests and holy sites where the sacred _pyr_ "hearth" burns. I don't, however, know enough about Greek > Persian sound changes to show that y > i.  Everything after pyr- I imagine just eroded or maybe it was simpler than that.  Maybe Pir is merely derived from Greek _pyr with_ y > i.  Also I think maybe the fact that there's a shrine called Pir Baba shows that Pir either didn't originally mean elder or the term came to mean something along the lines of "shrine" because if Pir did mean elder originally Pir Baba would translate to "Elder Father" which is redundant.  Pir Baba must mean "Shrine of the Father" and therefore Pir must not only mean "Elder."


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## Treaty

mojobadshah said:


> Historically the term Pir appears to have been used originally by the Zoroastrians in order to designate holy sites or shrines, I imagine where the sacred hearths are venerated.  The term Pir probably came into use in later Zoroastrian times e.g. Sassanian.



 I think a problem is the assumption of _pir _as an original Zoroastrian concept that leads to other assumptions like the connection of _pir _and fire. 

Zoroastrianism is a new phenomenon in Iranian history of religion. However, association of special natural phenomena with spirits of elders and ancestors (i.e. _pir _= spiritual guide*) is a common feature in most primitive religions. The spirit-place (genius loci) mediates between the living and God-nature, unlike the direct communication with God-commander in temple. Most _pir_s (either Zoroastrian or Islamic) are actually related to the spiritual presence of a holy person (usu. descendants of patriarchs) by the belief that the saint passed, disappeared or was buried there. 



mojobadshah said:


> Also I think maybe the fact that there's a shrine called Pir Baba shows that Pir either didn't originally mean elder or the term came to mean something along the lines of "shrine" because if Pir did mean elder originally Pir Baba would translate to "Elder Father" which is redundant.  Pir Baba must mean "Shrine of the Father" and therefore Pir must not only mean "Elder."



Not necessarily. It is common that the person's title becomes the place identifier in this very context of religious sites. The Persian word _emāmzādeh _(= offspring of Imam) refers also to the place or building where the holy person is buried (or disappeared). Interestingly, many _emāmzādeh_s are followed by the word _pir._In a few cases these words are interchangeable_._

* In religious context, _pir_ mainly refers to spiritual guide or leader, not just "elder".


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## mojobadshah

Treaty said:


> * In religious context, _pir_ mainly refers to spiritual guide or leader, not just "elder".



This is true.  It's pretty much why earlier I defined Pir as "[Priestly] Elder."  I don't want to kill a dead horse here, but I don't think this question can be settled unless two things are answered.  1.) Pir's PIE root 2.) Greek > Persian vowel shifts.  I would assume that during Sassanian Zoroastrian times the sacred pyr or fire was venerated in this so-called spirit-place, and then came to be associated with the so-called spirit guide analogous  to how Atar means "fire" and Atravan means "Firepriest."   Otherwise I'm all out of ideas.  Should I start another post on Greek > Persian sound changes or can we discuss this here?


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## mojobadshah

So I got in touch with Payam Nabarz.  He said he's not a linguist, but he seemed to imply that Pir was derived from Pir-e-Moghan "Master of the Holy Fire."  So according to convention Pir would correspond to "master," but why would Moghan correspond to "Holy Fire."  The term Moghan is derived from Magu(sh) "Priest of the Maga."  On the otherhand is pir corresponds to "Holy Fire" then Pir-e-Moghan could mean "Magus of the Holy Fire" which I think is the same deduction Nabarz was making.  So I stand with the simplest answer and that is that Pir developed from Greek pyr and if this is correct its the closet thing to a cognate of the Eng. fire that the Persians have.


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## Treaty

mojobadshah said:


> This is true.  It's pretty much why earlier I defined Pir as "[Priestly] Elder."  I don't want to kill a dead horse here, but I don't think this question can be settled unless two things are answered.  1.) Pir's PIE root 2.) Greek > Persian vowel shifts.  I would assume that during Sassanian Zoroastrian times the sacred pyr or fire was venerated in this so-called spirit-place, and then came to be associated with the so-called spirit guide analogous  to how Atar means "fire" and Atravan means "Firepriest."   Otherwise I'm all out of ideas.  Should I start another post on Greek > Persian sound changes or can we discuss this here?



Of course, these two questions are worth answering. However, their connection is another question. For assuming that sacred fire was venerated in those places we need to have at least two types of evidence:

- these "popular"-based places were officially recognised by strict Sassanid priests 
- a place other than official firetemples or _chahārtāghi_s (allegedly) was associated with fire

I don't know any evidence. Anyway, then you can go for the next series of debate:

- why Sassanids used a Greek word for their very own ancient elements? (especially as they rigorously denounced "hellenophile" Parthians).
- why _pir _is not fit within the similar naming trend of similar sacred sites within a conceptually similar belief system (I mean _emāmzāde _and_ pir _itself). This sounds a much stronger hypothesis even if there were evidence for the first two questions.


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## mojobadshah

Good point.  Maybe pir is actually a Parthian word.  Firetemples were established in Parthian times.  Secondly they were hellenophiles.  So they probably adopted Greek pyr for the sacred fires and firepriests.

As far as naming Muslim sacred sites by originally what was Zoroastrian terminology:  Shia Islam is a fusion of Persian tradition and Islam.  Nowroze for example is the most venerated day of the year in Persia, and its not a Muslim festival.  Its not unlikely that some Muslim holy sites in Iran were supplanted over earlier Zoroastrian holy sites.


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## Wolverine9

I must have missed this in Turner's dictionary before.  There are apparently some Indo-Iranian cognates in the Dardic and Nuristani languages.  The references listed in brackets [ ] may be outdated.

8329 **pūr -- ,* or *_pavara_ --  ʻ fire ʼ. [Cf. paví --  ʻ fire ʼ, _pavana_ -- 3 n. ʻ potter's kiln ʼ, _pāvana_ --  m. ʻ fire ʼ lex., _pāvaká_ --  (metr. _pavāká_ -- ) ʻ bright ʼ, m. ʻ Agni ʼ RV.  --  Gk. pu=r, &c.]
Wg. _puř_, _purúdotdot;i_ ʻ embers ʼ NTS xviii 289 with (?); Paš. lauṛ. _pūr_ ʻ big fire, bonfire ʼ, ar. _puer_, dar. _pōr_ (IIFL iii 3, 146 < *_paura_ --  or *_pāvara_ -- ); Shum. _pōr_ ʻ burning embers ʼ.


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## mojobadshah

Good work.  That's really interesting.  The pavi is where the sacred Zoroastrian hearth lies.  Wonder if pir is a cognate.


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## Treaty

Doesn't _pavi _mean sacred? and pedestal (_payeh_)? 

_Pōr _as "burning ember" reminded me of _bir_ with the same meaning in Gilaki. However, _bir _is clearly a transformation of _bōr _(= "red"). However, it seems no initial _b>p_ change in these languages.


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## asanga

_pāvi _would originally mean "purified" > "sacred". The Turner entries are actually for Sanskrit, not Persian, but they both go back to the same PIE root *_peu_- "to purify". To a layperson such as myself, a connection between *_peu_- and *_peh₂ur_- "fire" also looks plausible, but there must be phonological reasons why the professional consensus doesn't accept it.

I don't have access to Vol. 3 of _Indo-Iranian Frontier Languages_ (Turner's source for the Dardic & Nuristani words) but "< *_paura _-- or *_pāvara_" suggests Morgenstierne linked these words to Sankrit _pṝ _"to fill, to blow" (Skt. _paura _= "filler, blower"). Cheung's entry on proto-Ir *_parH_- compares it to πίμπρημι "to kindle", and Beekes gives PIE _prh_₁- "to blow, blaze" as etymology for the Greek. Googling doesn't reveal any other reference to such a PIE root, however: Sankrit _pṝ _is usually identified as a reflex of _*pelh_₁- "to fill". In any case it seems the Dardic is linked to _*pelh_₁-/_prh_₁-, not *_peh₂ur_-.


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## Wolverine9

asanga said:


> I don't have access to Vol. 3 of _Indo-Iranian Frontier Languages_ (Turner's source for the Dardic & Nuristani words) but "< *_paura _-- or *_pāvara_" suggests Morgenstierne linked these words to Sankrit _pṝ _"to fill, to blow" (Skt. _paura _= "filler, blower"). Cheung's entry on proto-Ir *_parH_- compares it to πίμπρημι "to kindle", and Beekes gives PIE _prh_₁- "to blow, blaze" as etymology for the Greek. Googling doesn't reveal any other reference to such a PIE root, however: Sankrit _pṝ _is usually identified as a reflex of _*pelh_₁- "to fill". In any case it seems the Dardic is linked to _*pelh_₁-/_prh_₁-, not *_peh₂ur_-.



The reconstructed form *_paura _or _*pāvara_ seems to only be for Paš. It doesn't explain the other Dardic (Shum.) form nor the Nuristani (Wg.) form.


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## aruniyan

I think Sanskrit _Vaira_(enmity/hostility) is the best candidate for _Fire_, is there any persian equivalent for _Vaira_?


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## asanga

_Vaira _is a _taddhita _derivative of _vira_, which is in turn a reflex of PIE *_wiHrós _"man, warrior".


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## fdb

Turner no. 8329 does indeed posit a hypothetical “*_pūr_*- ,* or *_pavara_- ʻ fire ʼ” to explain the word for “embers” or “bonfire” in some of the Dardic languages, but a cognate of English “fire” and Gk. πῦρ does not, as far as I can see, otherwise occur in any Indo-Aryan or Iranian language, and the Dardic forms can be explained differently, as Asanga has remarked.

NP _pīr_ “old person” evidently derives from Iranian *para- “before”, but the precise etymology is uncertain. Bartholomae, _Indogermanische Forschungen_ 22, pp. 112 sq. derived _pīr_ from *pṛwya-, which he saw as a compounding variant of *pṝwya-, as in Skt. _pūrvyá-_. Gershevitch, _Mélanges Morgenstierne_ (1964) pp. 78-88, derived it from *par-ya-, but for this I would expect *_pēr_, not _pīr_.


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## Wolverine9

fdb said:


> and the Dardic forms can be explained differently,



Are you including the Nuristani form with the Dardic ones?


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## fdb

There are different views on this matter. I do not have a strong preference one way or the other. But if you like, change it to "Dardic and Nuristani".


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## mojobadshah

fdb said:


> T
> NP _pīr_ “old person” evidently derives from Iranian *para- “before”, but the precise etymology is uncertain. Bartholomae, _Indogermanische Forschungen_ 22, pp. 112 sq. derived _pīr_ from *pṛwya-, which he saw as a compounding variant of *pṝwya-, as in Skt. _pūrvyá-_. Gershevitch, _Mélanges Morgenstierne_ (1964) pp. 78-88, derived it from *par-ya-, but for this I would expect *_pēr_, not _pīr_.



That sounds pretty convincing.  I also just happened to come by this in "Zoroaster and His World": In the late Sasanian legend, the name of the Vesak who gave his daughter to Siyavuxsh is Piraan, and Biruni recors in his akhbar Khwarizm that Fil, i.e. Pir, was the old name of the capital Gurganj.  - pg 78


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## Dhira Simha

There is a theory that links  _pir-_, _fire_, _Feuer_  and the Vedic  _pū_ 'to cleanse, purify' (cp. it pulire)  http://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koe...=/scans/MWScan/MWScanjpg/mw0640-puSparasa.jpg . The sacral meaning of purifying fire is well known. An interesting link  may be the Slavonic   _пир pir '_big feast'.  Cremation has  a long tradition in Europe and also with the Slavs (described in the Primary Chronicles).  Part of the ceremony was a feast (idem).


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## mojobadshah

Now that I think of it the meaning of "fire" could have applied to Piran > Pir and was then assimilated to his son Syavash who is still celebrated for riding through fire with his horse.  If this is right, then the word pir would have been derived from Persian and not Greek pyr.


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## Treaty

mojobadshah said:


> Now that I think of it the meaning of "fire" could have applied to Piran > Pir and was then assimilated to his son Syavash who is still celebrated for riding through fire with his horse.  If this is right, then the word pir would have been derived from Persian and not Greek pyr.



Siyavash is a son of Keykavus, King of Iran. The event of riding through fire (for proving innocence) pertains to when Siyavash was still in Iran. Eventually, Siyavash flees to Turan to avoid breaking the heroic codes by obeying his father. In Turan, King Afrasyab and his vizier Piran initially welcome Siyavash. However, they kill him later for other reasons. 

As you see, there is no connection between Piran and the fire of innocence.


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## mojobadshah

Treaty said:


> I just checked all "pir"s in Hafiz's book. All of them are used as "elder"/"guru" or "old": none  is used as "temple". _Pir-e-Moghan_ means "The elder of Magi". Moghan is _mogh_ (Magus) + _an _(pluraliser).



For what its worth I found this excerpt of one of Hafez's poems and in it he refers to the Zoroastrian fire temple as the unconventional Sufi way to achieve union with god.    

_He of pious works, where [is he]? and I, ruined, where?_ 
_See, what a distant way from where he is to where [I am]!_ 
_My heart is sick of the [Sufi] cloister and of the deceptive Khirqah;_ 
_Where is the Mazdean temple, and the unmixed wine, where?_ 
_What has a drink to do with piety and devotion?_ 
_Listening to sermons is where--the melody of a rebeck is where?_[16]


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## Treaty

mojobadshah said:


> For what its worth I found this excerpt of one of Hafez's poems and in it he refers to the Zoroastrian fire temple as the unconventional Sufi way to achieve union with god.
> 
> _He of pious works, where [is he]? and I, ruined, where?_
> _See, what a distant way from where he is to where [I am]!_
> _My heart is sick of the [Sufi] cloister and of the deceptive Khirqah;_
> _Where is the Mazdean temple, and the unmixed wine, where?_
> _What has a drink to do with piety and devotion?_
> _Listening to sermons is where--the melody of a rebeck is where?_[16]



This is the couplet where "Mazdean temple" is found (source: _ganjoor.net_):

  دلم ز صومعه بگرفت و خرقه سالوس
کجاست *دیر مغان* و شراب ناب کجا

It is _deyr_ (or _dayr_) of Magi. I also checked it in another edition (in Urdu) to be sure it is "deyr" not "pir". _Deyr _means convent or monastry (esp. for Christian monks). Here, Hafez used it as a more general term applicable to other religions as well (probably to keep the tone and rhythm, or maybe it had been already generalised). I don't know the ultimate root of _deyr_ but I think it became popular in Persian via Arabic. In addition, I'm not sure if he literally meant Magi or their temple. 

P.S. I'm not sure if it's proper to call Hafez a Sufi at all. Mysticisms is not the same as Sufism.


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## mojobadshah

If the endmorpheme Paz in the Persian word Ash-Paz "cook" is semantically associated with fire and akin to Pak "pure" and Pak is in Pakhtun and Pakhtun and Parsi are akin then Parsi is Pak right?  And that would mean that Majus means Pak too, right?  And all these words like Pak Pakhtun Parsi may also be akin to the word Fire too right?


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## fdb

mojobadshah said:


> If the endmorpheme Paz in the Persian word Ash-Paz "cook" is semantically associated with fire



but it is not



mojobadshah said:


> and akin to Pak "pure"



which it is not 



mojobadshah said:


> and Pak is in Pakhtun and Pakhtun and Parsi



 no 



mojobadshah said:


> then Parsi is Pak right?



wrong 



mojobadshah said:


> And that would mean that Majus means Pak too, right?



wrong 



mojobadshah said:


> And all these words like Pak Pakhtun Parsi may also be akin to the word Fire too right?



wrong


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## mojobadshah

fdb said:


> but it is not
> 
> 
> 
> which it is not
> 
> 
> 
> no
> 
> 
> 
> wrong
> 
> 
> 
> wrong
> 
> 
> 
> wrong



But doesn't Ash Paz Khana mean kitchen because Ash Paz means "cook" and if so how is that not semantically related to fire and Parsi and Pakhtu are indeed related.  Aryana Warsha Parsha Parsa Parsi Aryana Vaeja Pakhtu, Pashtu.   My connection aside: aren't basically all p-r words in IE. related so Parsi does mean Pure and Parsi and Pakhtu is akin to Parsi.  And FDB I do appreciate your posts, but please do not waste all our time by simply denying an argument.without a counter argument.  It's kind of impolite that I spend so much time and research to put my questions together.  I expect either the same kind of response l, or else please don't waste your own time and mine.


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