# greșiților noștri



## SerinusCanaria3075

I have a question as to what _greșit _means in this case. Is _greșit_ used as a noun to mean _Debtor_? 

(rom) Precum și noi iertăm *greșiților noștri*. 
(lat) Sicut et nos dimittimus *debitoribus nostris*.

(By the way, is _Tatal Nostru_ part of the Orthodox Church prayers?)


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## Trisia

Please don't say "rum" (that's booze). It's Rom[anian].

In this case, it literally means "those who have done us wrong" rather than debtor, although somehow I guess that meaning is implied (just like the meaning of having done something wrong is implicit here: "Perdónanos nuestras deudas, como también nosotros hemos perdonado a nuestros deudores.") Let's say it's closer to _forgive our transgressions/offences, like we forgive those who wronged us._



> By the way, is _Tatal Nostru_ part of the Orthodox Church prayers?


... Is this a trick question?


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## SerinusCanaria3075

Trisia said:


> Please don't say "rum" (that's booze). It's Rom[anian].


Sorry, is there a thread to explain the difference. I've seen it both ways: Rumanian and Romanian, guess I'm being ignorant.



Trisia said:


> ... Is this a trick question?


About the _Pater Noster_ in the Orthodox Church, I assume they use it too, right?

Now back to the topic:
See, I was trying to avoid the English translation and trying to get a more word by word (literal) translation, but I guess we can work with the English version a bit.



> "Perdónanos nuestras deudas, como también nosotros *perdonamos* a nuestros deudores." Let's say it's closer to _forgive our transgressions/offences, like we forgive those who wronged us._


"Así como nosotros perdonamos a nuestros deudores". 
"Così come noi rimettiamo ai nostri debitori".
As you can see debtor is a noun, so what's the function of *greșiților *in Romanian? A possessive adjective?
(sorry, I don't see the _those who wronged us _part in Romanian yet)


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## Trisia

Hahahaha. I took the verse from one of the official versions - I personally don't speak a word of Spanish 

I know - it's weird... "Greşiţi" looks like a noun to me, and it's supposed to mean "those who wronged us." Really, it does - because of the context.

 I can't explain it, because it's really not used like that... _greşiţi_ as an adjective means "wrong"/"made by mistake." This is the only context in which I remember ever having seen it as a noun.

I just hope someone else knows more about this... 

P.S. Sorry about the trick question part - I meant it was kind of a no-brainer. 
P.P.S. We Romanians usually prefer "Romanian." I know Rumanian is used too, but there's a note about this in our *sticky*.


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## SerinusCanaria3075

Hah. I kind of figured you got the Spanish version from the web, although in Latin America (including Brazilian Portuguese, I think) usually "debtors" is not used at all, which is something that was modified from the original Latin version.



Trisia said:


> I can't explain it, because it's really not used like that... _greşiţi_ as an adjective means "wrong"/"made by mistake." This is the only context in which I remember ever having seen it as a noun.


Thanks (I'm just hoping it's a variation of _greşit_). 

I guess I can just change _greşiţilor _to _debitorilor_ (hope I got it right) on the original post:


> (Rom) Precum și noi iertăm *debitorilor noștri*.
> (lat) Sicut et nos dimittimus *debitoribus nostris*


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## deegee_sister

Hi Serinus,

You're dealing with a very old religious text here. That's why the word "gresitilor" (sorry I don't have the accents installed) was used as a noun even though now it only exists in an adjective form (gresit) or as a verb (a gresi). There is definitely a link there and as Trisia pointed out, in this context, it means "those who have wronged us".

Most likely, it came from the verb "a gresi", used in the past tense. 
Cei care au gresit = Those who were wrong. Since, they're trying to convey that they have trespassed against us, you need a pronoun in there.
=> cei care ne-au gresit (pe noi) = Those who wronged us, sounds a bit odd in Romanian since the verb a gresi is a non reflexive verb. Hence, "gresitilor nostri" must have been the best alternative at the time. "Gresitilor" meaning "those who were wrong"  and the nostri in this case meaning "against us" rather than "our".

It's rather difficult to explain, but although the phrase "gresitilor nostri" is an archaism, it is the only true translation of the "Tatal Nostru" prayer. To use  the word "debitor" instead sounds awful!! It would be an insult to any Orthodox Romanian!! And yes, we do use "Tatal Nostru" as one of our main prayers.  Furthermore, in Romanian the word debitor  is ONLY used in a monetary context (as in owing  money).  

Cheers,
Dee Gee


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## OldAvatar

First of all, _Tatăl nostru_ is the most important of the Orthodox prayers, just to have an answer to the initial question. 

Second of all, I've heard another version of the prayer which says:
_Ne iartă nouă păcatele noastre, precum şi noi iertăm pe toţi cei care ne sunt datori. (_Please, forgive our sins, as we all do forgive all those who owe us). That brings the text closer to the initial Latin form.

On the other hand, you shouldn't take Latin as a master text since the Orthodox prayers are translations from Greek and Old Slavonic but not from Latin.

Third of all, Romanian _Tatăl nostru_ prayer is written in an archaic Romanian (as someone already mentioned) and if you take it literally, it gets rather difficult to understand even by native Romanians. It is, somehow, a form of a jaw breaker, if you like. In my oppinion, the entire prayer should be re-written in Romanian, but that's a tough matter, since we're dealing with strong old Orthodox church principles here... 

@Degee_sister
There are not accents in written Romanian . There are only different letters! 

Best regards!


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## Woland

Old Avatar ,why do you say ''Tatal Nostru'' is difficult even for native Romanians,I have no problem with  it ?


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## OldAvatar

Woland said:


> Old Avatar ,why do you say ''Tatal Nostru'' is difficult even for native Romanians,I have no problem with  it ?



Mainly because of the archaisms used and because of a few wrong interpretations of the original text. It is a delicate subject. I guess I'll explain it better when I'll have a bit of time.


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## robbie_SWE

Woland said:


> Old Avatar ,why do you say ''Tatal Nostru'' is difficult even for native Romanians,I have no problem with it ?


 
Most (if not all) religious texts are difficult, because of the way in which they were written in (so OldAvatar has a good point there ). Due to the fact that most people were illiterate at the time, the prayers had to be written in a special way (maybe even verses). _Tatăl nostru _has also, as it was stated in earlier posts, archaic constructions mostly unseen in modern Romanian. 

Even the Swedish prayer (_Herrens bön_) is somewhat hard to understand due to its archaic forms. 

Best Regards, 

 robbie


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## deegee_sister

OldAvatar said:


> @Degee_sister
> There are not accents in written Romanian . There are only different letters!



Thanks, Avatar. I'm aware that they're separate letters. I only meant that I didn't have the Romanian alphabet installed and as such could not reproduce certain letters.


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## SerinusCanaria3075

deegee_sister said:


> To use the word "debitor" instead sounds awful!! It would be an insult to any Orthodox Romanian!! Furthermore, in Romanian the word debitor is ONLY used in a monetary context (as in owing money).


Truly sorry, I actually regreted changing it. I didn't mean to offend anyone, just trying to get a clearer understanding taking in mind the fact that Romanian (the language) came from Latin.




OldAvatar said:


> Second of all, I've heard another version of the prayer which says:
> _Ne iartă nouă păcatele noastre, precum şi noi iertăm pe toţi cei care ne sunt datori. (_Please, forgive our sins, as we all do forgive all those who owe us). That brings the text closer to the initial Latin form.
> On the other hand, you shouldn't take Latin as a master text since the Orthodox prayers are translations from Greek and Old Slavonic but not from Latin.


Thanks. Definetely much easier to translate and easier to understand. The Catholic bible was translated from Hebrew and Greek, which took about 400 years to finish, so I suppose the Catholic prayers also came from Greek (I will do some research). 
I can't give an opinion about changing the "Lord's Prayer" in Romanian but I definetely think that the Catholic church should modify, keep and pray in the original Latin version due to the many new versions and changes that occur throughout the world, just a way to get everyone closer with no strange changes.


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## OldAvatar

I think I owe some explanations and as I'm having a bit of time right now, I came back with some thoughts regarding the *Tatăl nostru* (_Pater nostrum_) prayer. I'll go over the archaisms, they are relatively ok since they can get understood ... But I'll stop over one of the phrase which sounds contradictory, even bizarre to me:
*Şi nu ne duce pe noi în ispită!* (_And don't take us into temptation!_)
This phrase doesn't make sense if you take literraly...
God can't take anyone into the temptation because God is good. Instead, God can protect you from falling into temptation, so it should be something like:

*Nu lăsa* (*permite *in modern Romanian) *ca noi să fim ispitiţi*! (Don't let us be taken into temptation!). I've heard another version which says _Nu ne lăsa pe noi duşi în ispită _(Don't let us be taken into temptation)and I find it being more accurate, but still I'm not very happy with it .

There are also some other things which make the text difficult to understand for an untrain ear!
I hope I wasn't too annoying! 

Best regards!


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## SerinusCanaria3075

OldAvatar said:


> ... But I'll stop over one of the phrase which sounds contradictory, even bizarre to me:
> *Şi nu ne duce pe noi în ispită!* (_And don't take us into temptation!_)
> This phrase doesn't make sense if you take literraly...


I didn't want to mention it either (already in enough trouble) but I actually thought something similar as I tried to translate it as accurately as possible. It's understandable but still "oddly worded" when I compared it to other versions (no offense). Strangely Italian is similar:
_E non ci indurre in tentazione _(et ne nos inducas in tentationem).
Keeping in mind that the prayers came from Old Slavonic and Greek in Romanian I'll say no more.


> *Nu lăsa* (*permite *in modern Romanian) *ca noi să fim ispitiţi*! (Don't let us to be taken into temptation!).
> _Nu ne lăsa pe noi duşi în ispită _(Don't let us be taken into temptation).


I like this version, it's similar to Spanish: _No nos dejes *caer* en tentación _(don't let us *fall *into temptation)

(is "_lăsa_" correct? Or are "_leşi_" or "_lăsaţi_" also acceptable? "Lăsaţi" would be formal as if talking to God right?)


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## OldAvatar

SerinusCanaria3075 said:


> (is "_lăsa_" correct? Or are "_leşi_" or "_lăsaţi_" also acceptable? "Lăsaţi" would be formal as if talking to God right?)



Interesting remark! Actually, Romanians do not talk formally with God. Of course, initial is always capitalized like in any other language, but, probably, the thinking mechanism is that God should be a friend and therefore religious speech has a more familiar form. So, the plural form is never used.


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## SerinusCanaria3075

OldAvatar said:


> Interesting remark! Actually, *1.* Romanians do not talk formally with God. Of course, initial is always capitalized like in any other language, but, probably, the thinking mechanism is that God should be a friend and therefore religious speech has a more familiar form. *2.* So, the plural form is never used.


*1.* Unless I'm mistaken, doesn't the prayer start as if talking to God?:
Care *ești *in ceruri, 
*fac**ă-se* Voia Ta,
*D**ă-ne-o* nouă astazi...

And then all of a sudden it seems as if you were describing the Lord to someone rather than actually talking to Him:
Nu _l__ăsa_ ca noi... (_l__ăsa_ is in the infinitive correct?)
Nu ne _duce_ pe noi... (_duce_ 3rd p.)

*2.* So the formal/courteous voice in Romanian _is _2nd p. plural but not used in prayers, correct?


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## jazyk

What happens is that Romanian negative imperative is like the Italian one. You use the infinitive:

Non mangiare tutto.
Nu mânca tot.

They don't use the subjuntive here like us.


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## SerinusCanaria3075

jazyk said:


> What happens is that Romanian negative imperative is like the Italian one. You use the infinitive:
> 
> Non mangiare tutto.
> Nu mânca tot.
> 
> They don't use the subjuntive here like us.


You read my mind, I was actually going to ask what you just said but not anymore.


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## ancuta

OldAvatar said:


> First of all, _Tatăl nostru_ is the most important of the Orthodox prayers, just to have an answer to the initial question.
> 
> Second of all, I've heard another version of the prayer which says:
> _Ne iartă nouă păcatele noastre, precum şi noi iertăm pe toţi cei care ne sunt datori. (_Please, forgive our sins, as we all do forgive all those who owe us). That brings the text closer to the initial Latin form.
> 
> On the other hand, you shouldn't take Latin as a master text since the Orthodox prayers are translations from Greek and Old Slavonic but not from Latin.
> 
> Third of all, Romanian _Tatăl nostru_ prayer is written in an archaic Romanian (as someone already mentioned) and if you take it literally, it gets rather difficult to understand even by native Romanians. It is, somehow, a form of a jaw breaker, if you like. In my oppinion, the entire prayer should be re-written in Romanian, but that's a tough matter, since we're dealing with strong old Orthodox church principles here...
> 
> @Degee_sister
> There are not accents in written Romanian . There are only different letters!
> 
> Best regards!


 
Actually, there are written accents in Romanian which identify stressed vowels. They are used when misplacing the stress/accent on the word can change the meaning or create confusion. For example: *trei copii* vs. *trei còpii*. They are used in the literary language, although extremely rare. They are indeed negligible, but they do exist.


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## OldAvatar

ancuta said:


> Actually, there are written accents in Romanian which identify stressed vowels. They are used when misplacing the stress/accent on the word can change the meaning or create confusion. For example: *trei copii* vs. *trei còpii*. They are used in the literary language, although extremely rare. They are indeed negligible, but they do exist.




Sure, you are right. I meant that they don't exist in the alphabet.


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## mikeo

SerinusCanaria3075 said:


> *2.* So the formal/courteous voice in Romanian _is _2nd p. plural but not used in prayers, correct?


 
When referring to God, we do not use the 2nd p. plural form, but 2nd p singular. God belongs to another category than a respected human being.


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## aurette

Using the 2nd p singular in prayers and when we talk to God gives you the impression you are talking to a friend.
The 2nd p plural is too formal and too distant.


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## chatkigazouille

Hello all, sorry for reviving a really old thread. I have a question here, as I just started learning Romanian.
As Dee mentioned above (post #6), "greşiţilor nostri" is used as a noun, anyone would care to explain how this works with the verb ierta?

1) Is "ierta" followed by a direct or indirect object when we talk about people? I know that in the same case, Notre Père in French, the word for "forgive" - "pardonner" is followed by an indirect object if it's a person, 

...comme nous *pardonnons à* ceux qui nous ont offensés

so I'm assuming that after "ierta" comes an indirect object, which is greşiţi. Which is why it's in a dative form. Correct me if I'm wrong

*My attempt...*
singular greşiţe (?) ---> person who harms
plural greşiţi ---> people who harm
possessive greşiţi nostri ---> our "harmer"

ierta + indirect object = ierta greşiţilor 

Appreciate all your help! Mersi


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## irinet

Well, that is a _past participle. In Romanian, it can take plural form and change into a noun_ like, 'iubiți', 'slăviți', 'adorați'.
However, we don't use 'greşiți' (to be found only as a verb) nor 'greşiților' nowadays.


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