# Anglo-saxon/Anglosajón



## Neever

Hi everybody,

Up until recently, I had never used or heard the word Anglo-saxon except when referring historically to that specific ethnic group. Recently I have moved to Spain to work, and frequently hear references to "el mundo anglosajón" etc. meaning the English-speaking world. I have to say, I was a little offended, because even though I was included in this "mundo" I really don't consider myself to be Anglo-saxon. I'll admit that many Irish probably have some Anglo-saxon heritage, but most people in the world have some heritage that does not define them. I looked the term up in several dictionaries, and among several other meanings it does indeed mean "a white English speaker".

I was wondering if this use of Anglo-saxon is common in other countries, and if my taking offense at it is just an Irish hang-up  or if it is inaccurate or unfair to use Anglo-saxon to describe any white English speaker? Whats wrong with "anglo-parlante"? It doesn´t especially describe _white_ people, but in the contexts I have heard it in, "el mundo anglosajón" was referring generally to the UK, the USA etc. which of course are home to many non-white English speakers! Is this just a case of language not having caught up to social reality? Anyone have any thoughts?


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## AIkelle

Well...

Here in Puerto Rico (which is a commonwealth of the United States of America), people refer to english speakers as "anglosajones". It doesn't mean the use of the term is accurate, but it is practically embeded on our day to day because of multiple reasons. 

But of course, this is only an interpretation from a Puerto Rican perspective. There may be other views on the subject from my fellow latinamericans.

Regards.


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## Frank06

Hi,

In Dutch we sometimes (rather rarely) use "de angelsaksische landen", meaning the countries where English is spoken, but especially the USA and the UK. I would even find it weird if Australia or New Zealand would be called that way...
As far as I understand the usage of 'angelsaksisch' _in Dutch_, colour of skin is not an issue when using that term _in Dutch_.

Groetjes,

Frank


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## Outsider

The term "Anglo-Saxon" is often used in Portugal more or less as you have described, except that I have never noticed anyone use it as a synonym of "_white_ English speaker" around here. As far as I am aware, it's just an umbrella term for the English-influenced, English-language cultures of the world, regardless of race.

P.S. IMHO, "Anglo-Saxon" as a cultural descriptor used in some European countries should not be confused with "Anglo" as an ethnic term used in America.


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## Neever

Outsider said:


> P.S. IMHO, "Anglo-Saxon" as a cultural descriptor used in some European countries should not be confused with "Anglo" as an ethnic term used in America.


 
No, thats very true. That term (if it was ever applied to me) would make me apoplectic with rage (and that definitely _is_ a hang-up!)!!

Interesting to note that when I originally posted I had looked in bilingual Spanish - English and monolingual English dictionaries, where it mentioned _white_ English speaker. I have just had a look at a monolingual Spanish dictionary and it says of English language and origin....no mention of white though...


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## Heba

Hi
In Egypt, the word Anglo Saxon refers to this ethnic group; its use is usually restricted to historical contexts.
If the word is mentioned in a non-historical context (which is rare), the first thing that would come to an Egyptian's mind upon hearing it would most probably be a white inhabitant of ''England''


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## maxiogee

Neever, if they didn't outrightly call you "a Brit", then you haven't been insulted, okay? 

I have never heard anyone refer to an "anglo-saxon" world, and would wonder what defined it, if you hadn't explained that it meant "white and English-speaking". I don't imagine that one would have many occasions in life in which one would need such precision. Wouldn't "white" or "English-speaking" normally cover whatever distinction was required to separate a group from "the rest"?

I can't imagine what it is apart from just being white and English-speaking which allies me with vast numbers of Americans, most Britons and most Australians. I also can't think why anyone would want to specifically include me with these people, without further refining the descriptors.


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## sound shift

In my experience, the use of this term to describe native English speakers is much more common in Mediterranean countries than in English-speaking countries. In WR I have several times seen the related expression "Saxon Genitive"; I know that this refers to the possessive apostrophe-"S" in English, but "Saxon Genitive" is not an accepted or widely understood term in English-speaking countries.


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## don maico

maxiogee said:


> Neever, if they didn't outrightly call you "a Brit", then you haven't been insulted, okay?
> 
> I have never heard anyone refer to an "anglo-saxon" world, and would wonder what defined it, if you hadn't explained that it meant "white and English-speaking". I don't imagine that one would have many occasions in life in which one would need such precision. Wouldn't "white" or "English-speaking" normally cover whatever distinction was required to separate a group from "the rest"?
> 
> I can't imagine what it is apart from just being white and English-speaking which allies me with vast numbers of Americans, most Britons and most Australians. I also can't think why anyone would want to specifically include me with these people, without further refining the descriptors.



why is being called a Brit an insult?  If I was called a Paddy I'd laugh


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## papillon

In the US, the term WASP - White Anglo-Saxon Protestant - used to be quite common, though fortunately I haven't heard it much in the last 5 years. Generally speaking, it is used to describe modern day Americans descendants from the early settlers from England, like the ones who arrived on Mayflower.


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## Dr. Quizá

Neever said:


> references to "el mundo anglosajón" etc. meaning the English-speaking world. I have to say, I was a little offended, because even though I was included in this "mundo"



Maybe you should be offended by not including Ireland as an English speaking country or the term was just wrongly used:



> anglosajón, na.
> 
> 1. adj. Se dice del individuo procedente de los pueblos germanos que en el siglo V invadieron Inglaterra. U. t. c. s.
> _	2. adj. Se dice de los individuos y pueblos de procedencia *y* lengua inglesa._
> 3. adj. Perteneciente o relativo a los anglosajones.
> 4. m. Lengua hablada por los antiguos anglosajones desde las invasiones hasta 1100 aproximadamente, conocida como inglés antiguo.
> 
> 
> 
> Real Academia Española © Todos los derechos reservados



"Y", not "o". That's the key. Anyway, this kind of mistakes are common anywhere... I bet most Irish think Iran is an Arab country, for example.


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## ireney

Well Greece is the second Med country after Egypt for which Heba spoke already in which I can inform you that we don't use the term this way. True, when referring to Anglo-Saxons (extremely rarely) we may not be talking about English (not British mind you) people only. As I mentioned it is rarely used and both Anglo-Saxon and the marginally more common expression "Anglo-Saxon (adj) mentality refer to the mentality shared by speakers of the English language in some countries. It doesn't refer to the whole population of any of the countries where English is spoken as an official language, nor to all the white English speakers. Frankly I think Irish are left completely out of it.


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## fenixpollo

Labels that US English-speakers misapply in the same way that Spanish-speakers misapply "anglosajón":
The Pennsylvania Dutch
Latino
Hispanic
Arab
I don't think that the use of anglosajón or any of these other terms is offensive because they are not meant to be offensive. They are meant to be descriptive, although they are based on an incomplete understanding of the culture that they describe. I think that we English-speakers just have to accept that even though we don't call the mother country Angle-land anymore, other cultures still refer to our culture in that way.


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## modus.irrealis

I'm a white English-speaker, and I'd also be slightly offended if I was labelled as an Anglo-saxon, mostly because it would be extremely inaccurate, since like you say, Anglo-saxon is used (at least around here) to refer to the English as an ethnicity, and to those who trace their origin back to that group of people. But fenixpollo's right and there's probably a bunch of terms that I use that are inaccurate and people might also be offended by, so I guess it not too big a problem, but why not a word like Anglophone?



fenixpollo said:


> Labels that US English-speakers misapply in the same way that Spanish-speakers misapply "anglosajón":
> The Pennsylvania Dutch



This doesn't seem to be wrong so much as a relic of the former use of the word Dutch (unless I misunderstand your point here).


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## Hockey13

modus.irrealis said:


> This doesn't seem to be wrong so much as a relic of the former use of the word Dutch (unless I misunderstand your point here).


 
I believe what makes this term inaccurate is that they are not, in fact, Dutch. They are German descendents who would call themselves "Deutsch," a word that was misheard by Americans to be "Dutch."


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## modus.irrealis

Hockey13 said:


> I believe what makes this term inaccurate is that they are not, in fact, Dutch. They are German descendents who would call themselves "Deutsch," a word that was misheard by Americans to be "Dutch."



My comment was made because I remember having this explained to me that Dutch used to refer (in English) to Germans as well as the Dutch before the word was narrowed to refer only to the Dutch, but this meaning survived in the Pensylvania Dutch. So I looked it up in the dictionary and this meaning is listed, although it's of course obsolete or archaic, so this may be possible.


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## ps139

papillon said:


> In the US, the term WASP - White Anglo-Saxon Protestant - used to be quite common, though fortunately I haven't heard it much in the last 5 years. Generally speaking, it is used to describe modern day Americans descendants from the early settlers from England, like the ones who arrived on Mayflower.


I hear it often actually, and I've never thought it necessarily to be the descendents of the first English settlers, but basically any White Anglo Saxon Protestant. It's also used as an adjective, e.g., "parts of Massachussetts are very waspy."


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## Hockey13

modus.irrealis said:


> My comment was made because I remember having this explained to me that Dutch used to refer (in English) to Germans as well as the Dutch before the word was narrowed to refer only to the Dutch, but this meaning survived in the Pensylvania Dutch. So I looked it up in the dictionary and this meaning is listed, although it's of course obsolete or archaic, so this may be possible.


 
It certainly is possible, but I think the original post was brought up to exhibit current misnomers for whatever reason. There are many people who think they are actually of Dutch descent.


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## Clemx

In case anyone is interested - and is able to receive the UK television station Channel 4 - there is a documentary due to be shown later this week called '100% English', which (going by what I've seen from the trailers) is about how there is really no such thing... as being 100% 'English', that is.



modus.irrealis said:


> I'm a white English-speaker, and I'd also be slightly offended if I was labelled as an Anglo-saxon, mostly because it would be extremely inaccurate, since like you say, Anglo-saxon is used (at least around here) to refer to the English as an ethnicity, and to those who trace their origin back to that group of people.


A couple of points:

1. Labelling *anyone* an "Anglo-Saxon", apart from the Germanic people who invaded Southern Britain in the 5th century, is pretty inaccurate. 

2. It seems impossible to me that anyone from the US who is descended from the Mayflower settlers wouldn't have a single non-English ancestor in nearly 400 years.


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## modus.irrealis

Hockey13 said:


> It certainly is possible, but I think the original post was brought up to exhibit current misnomers for whatever reason. There are many people who think they are actually of Dutch descent.


I see, thanks.



Clemx said:


> 1. Labelling *anyone* an "Anglo-Saxon", apart from the Germanic people who invaded Southern Britain in the 5th century, is pretty inaccurate.


How so?


> 2. It seems impossible to me that anyone from the US who is descended from the Mayflower settlers wouldn't have a single non-English ancestor in nearly 400 years.


Is this in response to what I wrote?


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## Brioche

Neever said:


> Hi everybody,
> 
> Up until recently, I had never used or heard the word Anglo-saxon except when referring historically to that specific ethnic group. Recently I have moved to Spain to work, and frequently hear references to "el mundo anglosajón" etc. meaning the English-speaking world.


 
Back in the days of General DeGaulle [President of France], the term _anglo-saxon_ was used in French as a sneering reference to the US Americans and British.


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## jefrir

"Les Anglo-saxons" is used in France as a general term to describe the British and Americans.
Calling yourself Anglo-saxon now in the English speaking world is innaccurate because, basically, you aren't. The Angles and Saxons were groups who invaded Britain in the early middle ages, and I very much doubt that you are closely related to them - it's like describing yourself as a Jute, a Viking, a Franc etc. If you want to describe your ethnic group, what's wrong with _white_?


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## Neever

jefrir said:


> "Les Anglo-saxons" is used in France as a general term to describe the British and Americans.  Calling yourself Anglo-saxon now in the English speaking world is innaccurate because, basically, you aren't.



Yes, thank you, I know!



jefrir said:


> If you want to describe your ethnic group, what's wrong with _white_?



If I want to describe my ethnic group I'll use *Irish*.  White is a grossly imprecise and, in my opinion, unhelpful category, apart from the fact that its not an ethnic group at all. You seem to have picked up the wrong end of the stick Jefrir.  I am asking if other countries/languages use Anglo-saxon to describe English speakers, as well as expressing my own personal distaste for the word.  I have also pointed out that the meaning of the term seems to differ in English and Spanish.


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## fenixpollo

jefrir said:


> If you want to describe your ethnic group, what's wrong with _white_?


 White is an archaic, inaccurate description of a skin color; it's not an ethnic group. Polish, Scottish and Spanish are examples of three "white" ethnic groups that are very different from each other.


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## maxiogee

Neever said:


> If I want to describe my ethnic group I'll use *Irish*.  White is a grossly imprecise and, in my opinion, unhelpful category, apart from the fact that its not an ethnic group at all. You seem to have picked up the wrong end of the stick Jefrir.



I presume the use of white, Anglo-saxon was to rule out Phil Lynott, Paul McGrath and Kevin Sharkey from whatever comments were being made


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