# How common is it to leave out final -e in verbs in 1st person sg.?



## espana1

Do some Germans leave out the "e" on the first person verbs...zB:  Ich mach meine Ausaufgabe.  Or does it ALWAYS have to be "Ich mache"

...
Thanks


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## Frank78

In collquial speech the e in verbs like "mache" can be left out.

...


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## sokol

To leave out final "e" is very common but more common in some regions than in others.

In Austria it is very common (and generally in Southerners speech), or to put it the other way round: to *not *leave out "e" is considered rather formal in Austria while it is colloquial elsewhere.


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## Derselbe

I don't know about nothern Germany but I'd say in southern Germany nobody ever pronounces the 1st per. sing. 'e'. No matter if you talk to your girlfried or a judge. It sounds very strange if somebody pronounces them. Actually I've heard from foreign students that they are explicitly taught to omit them in spoken language in school.


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## Kuestenwache

I agree. I wouldn't even consider it that colloquial, it's just spoken language. Pronouncing the "e" is really a form of emphasis or very formal language.


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## espana1

Wow.  Thanks!  Gibt es einige Besondersheiten fuer diese Regel?  zB fuer die Verben als "tue" oder "sehe"?


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## newg

It's funny because, in opposition to what Derselbe said, I've been taught not to omit it. 
The only exception I can remember is with the verb "haben".
_Ich hab'._


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## sevenup

It's correct to have it with the e but I guess no first language German speaker would ever feel it to be wrong without. It's like writing "wanna" in English, that would be wrong if I write it in an exam but no one on the street would ever think it is wrong. Also I must tell you that I disagree that it sounds wrong or formal if you say it with the e. So if I were you just don't care either way it is right!


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## berndf

newg said:


> It's funny because, in opposition to what Derselbe said, I've been taught not to omit it.


It is an obvious attempt to defy reality. Similarly, we get told in French class never to say _je sais pas_ (leaving out _ne_).


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## brian

I have a question...

When German words end in the voiced stops _b, d, _or _g_, they get devoiced as _p, t,_ and _k_, respectively, e.g. _Tag_, [ta:*k*].

So wouldn't dropping the the _e_ from verbs ending in _-be, -de,_ and _-ge_ quite significantly alter the pronunciation to _-p, -t, _and _-k_?

I know for a fact that _Ich hab_, for example, sounds like _Ich hap_--and I'm used to that.

But in general is it still OK to drop the _e_ in these cases, and would the final stops always be devoiced?

Examples:

_Ich fliege = Ich flieg_ --> ['fli*k*]
_Ich schreibe = Ich schreib _--> ['ʃʁai*p*]
_Ich trage = Ich trag_ --> ['tʁa*k*]

Is that right? Perhaps it depends on what the word immediately following starts with, i.e. a vowel or a consonant:

_Ich schreib zwei Briefe._ <-- [p]
_Ich screib einen Brief._ <-- * or [p] depending on pronunciation??

I have no idea. *


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## berndf

brian8733 said:


> _Ich fliege = Ich flieg_ --> ['fli*:k*] (seltener und regional verschieden auch: ['fli:*ç*])
> _Ich schreibe = Ich schreib _--> ['ʃʁa*Ip*]
> _Ich trage = Ich trag_ --> ['tʁa*:k*] (seltener und regional verschieden auch: ['tʁa:*x*])
> 
> Is that right? Perhaps it depends on what the word immediately following starts with, i.e. a vowel or a consonant:
> 
> _Ich schreib zwei Briefe._ <-- [p]
> _Ich sc*h*reib einen Brief._ <-- * or [p] depending on pronunciation??*


*The "Auslautverhärtung" in German is without exception. In Ich schreib einen Brief there will normally be a very short glottal stop. If you pronounce it without glottal stop and unaspirated people would hear Schreibeinen (scream-legs, accusative), whatever this might mean.

Things are slightly different in Austria where most speakers pronounce /b/ and /p/ identically anyway.*


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## brian

Great, a rule with no exceptions.  If only it were always so easy....

Thanks.


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## berndf

Unless well trained in foreign languages, Germans are quite incapable of pronouncing _lenis_ consonants at the end of a word. I remember a teacher at my daughters school (she is in elementary school and they teach them already a bit of English but the teachers doing that aren't very good at it) was once asked the plural of _eye_. She replied "_ice_". I overheard this and corrected here saying "_eyes_". Her response was: "Das habe ich doch gesagt: _ice_". I had to give up. She wouldn't even hear the difference.


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## sokol

Derselbe said:


> I don't know about nothern Germany but I'd say in southern Germany nobody ever pronounces the 1st per. sing. 'e'. No matter if you talk to your girlfried or a judge. It sounds very strange if somebody pronounces them. Actually I've heard from foreign students that they are explicitly taught to omit them in spoken language in school.


You're right of course, in spoken language final "e" generally is left out. It is written though, and in school we still learn to write it (in Austria certainly, and I guess in Bavaria too).


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## Derselbe

brian8733 said:


> I have a question...
> 
> When German words end in the voiced stops _b, d, _or _g_, they get devoiced as _p, t,_ and _k_, respectively, e.g. _Tag_, [ta:*k*].



Hm, I'm not really versed in phonetics but I think I'd pronounce "flieg" and "fliek" differently. Maybe both would sound like 'k' to an English native but I think I'd be quite surprised if I heard someone saying "fliek". Maybe I'm wrong 
I'm going to pay attention to that and report afterwords. Stay tuned


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## Kuestenwache

I agree. The sounds produced by the German terminal devoicing are less aspirated. Non the less berndf is right many Germans have a real problem with pronouncing a voiced phoneme especially at the end of a word.


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## elroy

To go back to the topic, I think it depends a lot on the verb.

"Ich habe," for example, almost always sounds forced and stilted - and indeed, this presents a problem to me as an interpreting student.  When I'm interpreting from English into German, I tend to always say "ich hab" because I'm so used to it.  It requires a significant effort on my part to say "ich habe," which is obviously more appropriate in formal contexts.

But I don't feel that this is the case with other verbs.  For example, "ich finde" sounds completely natural to me (in fact, I don't really every say "ich find").

There are many other verbs that sound normal with the "e": "ich studiere," "ich singe," "ich lese."

Is it just me, or does it really depend on the verb?  This isn't something I consciously think about.  Even though I'm not a native speaker, I go by feel, based on what I've soaked up from the native speakers I've been in contact with.


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## Derselbe

elroy said:


> To go back to the topic, I think it depends a lot on the verb.
> 
> "Ich habe," for example, almost always sounds forced and stilted - and indeed, this presents a problem to me as an interpreting student.  When I'm interpreting from English into German, I tend to always say "ich hab" because I'm so used to it.  It requires a significant effort on my part to say "ich habe," which is obviously more appropriate in formal contexts.
> 
> But I don't feel that this is the case with other verbs.  For example, "ich finde" sounds completely natural to me (in fact, I don't really every say "ich find").
> 
> There are many other verbs that sound normal with the "e": "ich studiere," "ich singe," "ich lese."
> 
> Is it just me, or does it really depend on the verb?  This isn't something I consciously think about.  Even though I'm not a native speaker, I go by feel, based on what I've soaked up from the native speakers I've been in contact with.



I think your feeling is not misleading you. I also consider "habe" to be more strict in tone than "studiere". However, it might also depend on the particular region, as we found out above, or even on the sentence structure or following word.

I wouldn't have much problems with "Ich les*e* Zeitung." But I'd definitely omit the 'e' if I said "Ich les gerade Zeitung." I don't know why, though 

But all the examples you gave seem reasonable to me. So trust your feeling.


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## Kuestenwache

Derselbe said:


> I wouldn't have much problems with "Ich les*e* Zeitung." But I'd definitely omit the 'e' if I said "Ich les gerade Zeitung." I don't know why, though


I suppose the reason for that might be, that "les" ends on an s-phoneme and "Zeitung" starts with one slightly different so they can not be linked like in "Ich habe Probleme damit"-"Ich ha'Probleme damit". So it is just natural to "add" the "e" for a better flow of speach.


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## Derselbe

Kuestenwache said:


> I suppose the reason for that might be, that "les" ends on an s-phoneme and "Zeitung" starts with one slightly different so they can not be linked like in "Ich habe Probleme damit"-"Ich ha'Probleme damit". So it is just natural to "add" the "e" for a better flow of speach.



"Ich hab' Probleme damit"
sounds absolutely fine to my ears.


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## Kuestenwache

that's what I said. But in "Ich hab Probleme damit" b and p are linked somehow. Try it out they are not pronounced seperately.


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## berndf

Derselbe said:


> Hm, I'm not really versed in phonetics but I think I'd pronounce "flieg" and "fliek" differently. Maybe both would sound like 'k' to an English native but I think I'd be quite surprised if I heard someone saying "fliek". Maybe I'm wrong





Derselbe said:


> I'm going to pay attention to that and report afterwords. Stay tuned


 Literate speakers when speaking very articulate differentiate between final -b and -p by over-aspirating a final -p. In my view this is over-compensation and normally happens only if the speaker consciously wants to differentiate.
 
Elementary school children learning to write spell words ending in –d/-t, -p/-b more or less randomly either way. This is a good indication that there is no audible distinction in natural speech.


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## Erick404

Now, what about tenses other than the present?
Is it common to drop the -e from forms like hatte, hätte, machte, sagte, etc?


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## berndf

Only in poetic German, if the meter requires a reduction of the number of syllables. In colloquial speech not.

In older texts (>150years) you sometimes find it. I cannot say, if this is so because it once was colloquial or because the author is immitating poetic language.


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## espana1

Just to clarify so those in the future who look at the question are not confused:
1.  In colloquial German, and sometimes (in some regions) in both colloquial and formal speech, Germans often do not pronounce the "e" in the present tense first person form.
2.  In all other forms, Germans always pronounce the "e" in the "ich" tense; i.e. Ich machte

Is this right?

Thanks


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## berndf

Yes. .....


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## MarX

espana1 said:


> Do some Germans leave out the "e" on the first person verbs...zB: Ich mach meine Ausaufgabe. Or does it ALWAYS have to be "Ich mache"
> 
> ...
> Thanks


When speaking it's pretty normal to drop the -e.



Derselbe said:


> I don't know about nothern Germany but I'd say in southern Germany nobody ever pronounces the 1st per. sing. 'e'. No matter if you talk to your girlfried or a judge. It sounds very strange if somebody pronounces them. Actually I've heard from foreign students that they are explicitly taught to omit them in spoken language in school.


I live in northern Germany (at the Baltic Sea!  ) and over here it's also quite normal to omit the final -e when speaking. Perhaps not as often as in southern Germany, but it's not unusual at all to do it.


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## Hutschi

espana1 said:


> Just to clarify so those in the future who look at the question are not confused:
> 1.  In colloquial German, and sometimes (in some regions) in both colloquial and formal speech, Germans often do not pronounce the "e" in the present tense first person form.
> 2.  In all other forms, Germans always pronounce the "e" in the "ich" tense; i.e. Ich machte
> 
> Is this right?
> 
> Thanks



At least in my area there are exceptions for other verb forms, especially auxillary verbs:

Examples:

Ich wer'dich morgen besuchen (the d of "werd" and "dich" are connected.)
Ich wer(d)' das nich' wieder tun. Ich wer'das nich' wieder tun.

("e" is omitted, and "d" is connectes sometimes.)

Ich hab' so bei mir gedacht: Das könnt(e) gut möglich sein.

Ich dacht' drüber nach. 

All these examples are coll. language and usually not used in poetry or poetic language.


In dialects the "e" is often omitted. But the difference between past tense and present tense often disappears in this cases in regular verbs, and so the past tense is not used.

Example in High German (standard language used coll.) -  what would happen:
Ich legte dir das Buch auf den Tisch. Ich legt' dir das Buch auf den Tisch. Ich leg'dir das Buch auf den Tisch. Ich leg' dir das Buch auf den Tisch. Ich lege dir das Buch auf den Tisch.

So in this case I would use "Ich hab' dir das Buch auf den Tisch gelegt."

The same happened in dialects to many words: The omission of endings (or other language changes) made the form incomprehensibly. So many past tense forms were omitted fully. 

In dialects, the omission is far more developed:

Ich ho ma so g'docht.
Ich habe mir so gedacht.


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## sokol

espana1 said:


> 2.  In all other forms, Germans always pronounce the "e" in the "ich" tense; i.e. Ich machte


I can confirm forms like "Das dacht' ich mir auch" - I've heard Germans speak like that; however I don't know how common this is.
(Austrians don't because "dachte" = preterite is not used in colloquial speech, it is missing in dialects, but only in formal standard language - and as these forms are foreign to Austrians they pronounce final "e" here, they treat those forms as "loans" which remain unchanged .)

But Austrians _do _omitt final "e" in _Konjunktiv _which is very much used and productive in Austrian speech; so we would say "ich hätt ja das erste Taxi genommen" instead of "ich hätte" (it would sound very formal to use "ich hätte" in Austria).


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## MarX

sokol said:


> I can confirm forms like "Das dacht' ich mir auch" - I've heard Germans speak like that; however I don't know how common this is.
> (Austrians don't because "dachte" = preterite is not used in colloquial speech, it is missing in dialects, but only in formal standard language - and as these forms are foreign to Austrians they pronounce final "e" here, they treat those forms as "loans" which remain unchanged .)
> 
> But Austrians _do _omitt final "e" in _Konjunktiv _which is very much used and productive in Austrian speech; so we would say "ich hätt ja das erste Taxi genommen" instead of "ich hätte" (it would sound very formal to use "ich hätte" in Austria).


Konjunktiv is also very much used here in northern Germany, and just like in Austria, it's usual to drop the -e in "hätte".


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## berndf

MarX said:


> Konjunktiv is also very much used here in northern Germany, and just like in Austria, it's usual to drop the -e in "hätte".


Agreed, but in my exprience only for the verbs _haben_ and _sein_ which are always a bit special.


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## MarX

berndf said:


> Agreed, but in my exprience only for the verbs _haben_ and _sein_ which are always a bit special.


Do you actually say _stünd_,_ spräch_, _flög_, _läs_, etc. in Austria?


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## Erick404

It seems to me that dropping the final -e in verbs is usual, or at least acceptable, among all native German speakers.
Then, let me take it a step deeper: is it common to leave the final -e in declensed adjetives? For example:
"Sie sind gut Freunde"
"Das neu Auto"

I dont think so, I've never seen anything like that... but again, I'm not very experienced with German.


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## ablativ

Erick404 said:


> is it common to leave the final -e in declensed adjetives? For example:
> "Sie sind gut Freunde"
> "Das neu Auto"
> 
> I dont think so, ...



You are right - it isn't common to leave the final "e/er/es/en/em" in such cases.

But there are some exceptions:

(1) in certain expressions such as:

- guter Freund mit jemandem sein
- dummes Zeug reden
- gutes Wetter machen

(2) in poetic language in order to reduce the number of syllables by putting an apostrophe instead

- ...ein erfolgreich*'* Jahr

(3) in compounds (quite frequently)

- Kleinvieh
- Schlaukopf
- Tiefsee
- Kurzwelle


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## Hutschi

berndf said:


> Agreed, but in my exprience only for the verbs _haben_ and _sein_ which are always a bit special.


How is it with "müssen" and "können"?

Ich müsst' das eigentlich noch machen.
Ich könnt' mitkommen.

Here in my region it depends on the mood and formality. It is only used in a familiar environment.


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## berndf

Hutschi said:


> How is it with "müssen" and "können"?
> 
> Ich müsst' das eigentlich noch machen.
> Ich könnt' mitkommen.
> 
> Here in my region it depends on the mood and formality. It is only used in a familiar environment.


You are absolutely right!


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