# masculine/feminine numerals



## rushalaim

origumi said:


> “Also, the guy made sure to use masculine numbers with masculine nouns and feminine numbers with feminine nouns”.


Pentateuch uses masculine numerals with masculine or feminine nouns, and it uses feminine numerals with feminine or masculine nouns. It proves, that PS just had numerals out of any gender, the true numerals are "modern" "Hebrew" feminine-numerals.


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## Drink

rushalaim said:


> Pentateuch uses masculine numerals with masculine or feminine nouns, and it uses feminine numerals with feminine or masculine nouns. It proves, that PS just had numerals out of any gender, the true numerals are "modern" "Hebrew" feminine-numerals.



Examples please...


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## rushalaim

Drink said:


> Examples please...


Deuteronomy 1:3 uses עשתי עשר 
but Genesis 32:22 uses שתי for feminine
ויקם בלילה הוא ויקח את *שתי נשיו* ואת *שתי שפחתיו* ואת אחד עשר ילדיו ויעבר את מעבר יבק

The modern dictionary says עשר is feminine, עשרה is masculine.
But Pentateuch uses עַשְׁתֵּי־עֶשְׂרֵה (Exodus 26:7,8; 36:14,15).


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## Drink

Deuteronomy 1:3 is irrelevant, because it is used as an ordinal number, rather than cardinal. I think the rules were different for ordinals.
In Genesis 32:23 (32:22 by the Christian numbering), שתי is supposed to be feminine, so that's not surprising.

I take your point about עשר vs. עשרה in Genesis 32:23 and Exodus 26:7-8, 36:14-15, but this is very rare. The vast majority of the nearly 400 uses of עָשָׂר and עֶשְׂרֵה are with the correct genders.


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## origumi

Drink said:


> I take your point about עשר vs. עשרה in Genesis 32:23 and Exodus 26:7-8, 36:14-15.


Where's the gender problem? עשתי עשר means 11 (masc., like אחד עשר), עשתי עשרה means 11 (fem., like אחת עשרה), while עשתי by itself is for both genders.


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## Drink

origumi said:


> Where's the gender problem? עשתי עשר means 11 (masc., like אחד עשר), עשתי עשרה means 11 (fem., like אחת עשרה), while עשתי by itself is for both genders.


אחד עשר *ילדיו*
עשתי עשרה *יריעות*
Even though עשר is feminine and עשרה is masculine.


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## origumi

Drink said:


> אחד עשר *ילדיו*
> עשתי עשרה *יריעות*
> Even though עשר is feminine and עשרה is masculine.


But this is standard Biblical & Modern Hebrew:


> 11 (במלים בלשון זכר: *אחד-עשר*; בלשון נקבה: *אחת-עשרה*) הוא המספר הטבעי הבא אחרי 10 והבא לפני 12.


11 (מספר) – ויקיפדיה


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## rushalaim

> ( אחד עשר means 11 (fem., like אחת עשרה)


My dictionary of the modern _"Hebrew"_ says that עשר is feminine, but אחד is masculine. So how could be אחד עשר in Pentateuch?


origumi said:


> Where's the gender problem? עשתי עשר means 11 (masc., like אחד עשר), עשתי עשרה means 11 (fem., like אחת עשרה), while עשתי by itself is for both genders.


I cannot see עשתי עשר in modern _"Hebrew"_. Some commentators say עשתי is dual. As if when your fingers on hands are finished counting, the first numeral of the next decade is עשתי (in mind) from the Hebrew word עשתות .
I think _Akkadian _עשתנ in Pentateuch is _Hebrew _שתים , just like _Phoenician _אשנמ is _Hebrew _שנים


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## origumi

rushalaim said:


> My dictionary of the modern _"Hebrew"_ says that עשר is feminine, but אחד is masculine. So how could be אחד עשר in Pentateuch?


For the numbers 11-19, עשר is for masculine and עשרה for feminine.


> Some commentators say עשתי is dual. As if when your fingers on hands are finished counting, the first numeral of the next decade is עשתי (in mind) from the Hebrew word עשתות .
> I think _Akkadian _עשתנ in Pentateuch is _Hebrew _שתים , just like _Phoenician _אשנמ is _Hebrew _שנים


Your comment is void until you tell us which commentators you referred to.
There's agreement about the meaning of עשתי as 1.
The Akkadian cognate is ištēn / išteat = 1 (masc., fem.).


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## rushalaim

origumi said:


> Your comment is void until you tell us which commentators you referred to.


Kimchi and Ibn-Ezra.


> There's agreement about the meaning of עשתי as 1.


_Akkadian _עשתנ means _"one"_ not dual. The same _Phoenician _אשנמ is _"two"_ not dual. I think dual is in _Hebrew_.
By the way, why Deuteronomy 1:2 uses אחד עשר , but Deuteronomy 1:3 uses _Akkadian_ עשתי עשר ?


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## origumi

Ibn Ezra's opinion about עשתי from עשתונות is not accepted by many, for sure not by modern linguists.
Kimchi quotes this comment by Ibn Ezra and then says that Ibn Ezra is wrong here.


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## Drink

origumi said:


> For the numbers 11-19, עשר is for masculine and עשרה for feminine.



You're right, I was momentarily confused. This means that all of Rushalaim's arguments are invalid.


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## Drink

rushalaim said:


> My dictionary of the modern _"Hebrew"_ says that עשר is feminine, but אחד is masculine. So how could be אחד עשר in Pentateuch?
> I cannot see עשתי עשר in modern _"Hebrew"_. Some commentators say עשתי is dual. As if when your fingers on hands are finished counting, the first numeral of the next decade is עשתי (in mind) from the Hebrew word עשתות .
> I think _Akkadian _עשתנ in Pentateuch is _Hebrew _שתים , just like _Phoenician _אשנמ is _Hebrew _שנים



א is not interchangeable with ע. Phoenician אשנם is simply שנים with an epenthetic א; it is unrelated to Akkadian ištēn/išteat and Hebrew עשתי.


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