# -ca with numerals (onlarca, yüzlerce...)



## gling

Hi,

When you use these forms, can the noun be in the plural? Are both of the following possible, or only the first one?

a. onlarca kitap
b. onlarca kitaplar

Also, would you say that -ca turns the numeral into an adverb?


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## Revontuli

Hello Gling,

It should be ''onlarca kitap''.The second is not correct. 

''-ca'' doesn't turn numerals into adverbs. They are still adjectives in those examples. But the meaning is different when you say ''on kitap'' and ''onlarca kitap''. In the second example,it gives a meaning of ''so many'' but not a certain amount. But still,it defines the noun.


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## gling

When you say "still adjectives", you're probably assuming that numerals are adjectives- which is something I'm not convinced about. But anyway, I don't know how to really formulate what I meant in a way that can be tested. I just read somewhere that -ca in Turkish is more or less like -ly in English, so that's why I thought it makes something into an adverb.

Is it totally impossible to use the plural form (as in "onlarca kitaplar"), or do you hear it sometimes in spoken language?


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## Revontuli

Hello Gling,

If you use numerals in front of a noun,they become numeral adjectives.I actually wanted to say that.But when used single,they are nouns.

*on* kitap= ten books=> Here ''on'' is an adjective.

''-ca'' makes adjectives into adverbs actually. Like:

*güzel* kız= beautiful girl

güzel*ce*=beautifully

But used with numerals,they turn them into adjectives.(when used with a noun! if they're used single,then they are ''undefined pronouns'')

''onlarca kitaplar'' isn't heard in spoken language either.It's incorrect.


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## ~ceLine~

"onlarca" shows up that there are many books. So you don't need to use -lar (kitap*lar *= book*s*) in order to show that there are more than one book. That's why we say;

Onlarca kitap
Yüzlerce elma (elma = apple)
sekiz ağaç (ağaç = tree)

.. etc.


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## avok

about the adverb thing:

Otobüs yavaş : the bus is slow

Yavaş*ça* yürüdü: He walked slow*ly *


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## tugcee

-ce in onlarca emphasizes there are many many books.In this example "onlarca is an adjective.

millions of people: milyonlarca insan


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## Lindy Hopper

All of the above are very plausible... But here's my go;

In the examples that you've given the first one is true and the second one is wrong in which "onlarca kitap" means "tens of books".... Other examples were given such as yüzlerce elma "hundreds of apples", millions of people "milyonlarca insan" etc.

In turkish the plural form of a noun is never used with the numeral adjectives unlike other languages thus you can't say "iki adamlar" but "iki adam" (two men), not "yüz atlar" but "yüz at" (hundred horses).

The same rule applies also to the indefinite adjectives which have numerals in it... For example you can use the plural form when you say "bazı insanlar" (some people) but when you use birkaç then it has to be in the singular form... "birkaç insan" (a few people)... But notice the indefinite adjective "birtakım" though has a numeral in it doesn't indicate a number or amount but rather you say "birtakım insanlar" - certain people...


And to clarify your other question whether these numerals (onlarca, yüzlerce, milyonlarca) are adjectives or adverbs, these are adjectives...
In essence adjectives and adverbs are used for the same purpose to define the quality, quantity etc. of the word coming after it. The difference lies in the fact that adjectives are defining words for nouns whereas adverbs define verbs (that's why the name)...

I'll stick to the example of avok...

Otobüs yavaş... Here "yavaş" is not an adjective but it undertakes the role of the verb in Turkish these kind of verbs are called "fiilimsi" I don't know the English term for this sorry... If you add "-dir", "-dır" etc. at the end of these _fiilimsi_ it will become a statement verb. "Hayat güzeldir" (life is beautiful). There's rather a statement here about life in general rather than the speaker's own life.

Whereas in "yavaş otobüs" yavaş is adjective

"Otobüs yavaş gitti" here it's an adverb... The bus went slowly

If I add -ça then it's again adverb "Otobüs yavaşça gitti" but the meaning alters a bit
what I understand is the bus went rather slowly or the bus disappeared rather slowly in the distant.

To clarify the usage of "ca" in this context some more examples may be given:

Yavaş yürüdü: He walked slowly
Yavaşça yürüdü: He walked rather slowly/gently (as not to make any noise)

Güzel konuştu: He spoke nicely (He may have made a good statement)
Güzelce konuştu: He spoke rather nicely/in a nice manner/elegantly

Dürüst davrandı: He acted honestly
Dürüstçe davrandı: He acted in a rather honest manner.

So in my opinion -ce, -ca gives in these contexts more the meaning something done in a more delicate manner.


I hope this helps.


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## gling

ok, I see what you all mean. But let me bring in another perspective: not every word that describes a noun is an adjective. Take for example English phrases like 'horse farm', 'dog food', 'kitchen knife' etc. The first word describes the second one, but it's still not an adjective- it's a noun. You can see the difference from a real adjective in several ways:

1. adjectives can be combined with each other using 'and':
- a big and sharp knife
- a new and beautiful farm
but the words in the examples above can't be combined with adjectives, so you can't say:
* a big and kitchen knife
* a new and horse farm

2. when you have several adjectives, you can switch their order:
- a big sharp knife / a sharp big knife
- a new beautiful farm / a beautiful new farm
(one order sometimes sounds more natural, but both are possible).
you can't do this with a noun and an adjective:
* a kitchen big knife (only: a big kitchen knife)
* a horse new farm (only: a new horse farm)

So my point is that even if something describes a noun, that doesn't make it into an adjective.
Back to numerals, you can use these tests to show that, at least in English, numerals are not adjectives.

So I really don't know how to test the status of things like 'onlarce'. My guess is that in Turkish you can't combine a numeral like 15 with something like 10s, just like in English:
* tens or fifteen books
but the fact that this is bad could be for many reasons.


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## Lindy Hopper

Yes, that's somewhat true what you're saying about nouns also for Turkish as in English. Though in Turkish these are called noun groups and are classified in 3 groups:

1. Possessive construction [Belirtili isim tamlaması]: 
araba_*nın*_ kapı_*sı*_ (the door of the car)
kadın_*ın*_ elbise_*si*_ (the dress of the woman)

2.. Shortened Possessive construction [Belirtisiz isim tamlaması] (as your examples suggest)
At çiftli_*ği*_ (horse farm), köpek mama*sı* (dog food)

3. Determinative group for possessive construction [zincirleme isim tamlaması]
araba_*nın*_ kapı*sının* reng*i* (the colour of the car's door)

So as you see in the above examples the defined word with another noun always have to take the -i ending which makes it very easy to see the distinction between a noun and an adjective.

We could have never said... araba kapı, at çiftlik, köpek mama
As well as it would be wrong to say kırmızı arabası (this actually means 'his red car' so in that context it would be true but to say 'red car' we could never have this kind of construction), sıcak yemeği 

So that explains also why we can't say (also for English)
* a big and kitchen knife or a kitchen big knife
* a new and horse farm or a horse new farm
but
* a big kitchen knife
* a new horse farm


There may be some other better explanations for why this happens though.


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## tugcee

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=958856 check it out!
 It is  about Noun Completion


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## gling

ok, that's very convincing- it's clear that numerals (at least in Turkish) are not nouns.

This still leaves the possibility that they are not adjectives either  
(the only reason why I mentioned noun-noun combinations was simply to make the point that not everything that describes a noun is an adjective).

But I don't know if there's a clear way to decide on this.


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## Revontuli

Hello Gling,

For example:

kitchen knife = mutfak bıçağı

Here the word ''kitchen'' doesn't exactly describe the second word but it ''completes'' the noun combination.In noun combinations,the first noun is ''genitival/determinative'' whereas the second one is ''defined'' noun. 

But,for example,numerals are nouns when they are used single,but ''adjectives'' when they're followed by a noun.In noun combinations,the first word still remains as noun in the combination. But adjectives,which are descriptive words,become adjectives and then we call these ''adjectival combinations'':

two => noun
*two* girls =>  adjective

red => noun
*red* car => adjective

So what determines if numerals are noun or not is how they're used.


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## tugcee

Or a noun completion shows what something is made of.

 Wooden leg: Tahta bacak   leg is made of wood
 Golden watch: Altın saat    watch is made of golden
 Türk malı saat (watch) :watch made in Turkey   ---it shows where it was made


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