# ¿Existe en España el racismo regional?



## mia04

Hi 
i am practising for a exam and trying to learn about spanish society i was wondering if someone could help me with this question?
thanx

"Existe en espana el racismo regional?"


----------



## jmx

This is a very thorny issue !!

I can speak for what I know firsthand. I've heard sometimes that catalans are racist against the rest of spaniards. But I am not catalan myself, and I live in Catalonia, and I have never felt treated in a racist way of any kind. So, in my experience, that racism could well be nothing but a myth.


----------



## pinkpanter

I cannot tell much myself either. I just know that some people in the Canary Islands  call in a disapproving way "Peninsulares" to the Spanish people who does not live in the Canary or Balearic Islands. I think the reasons for that are the difference in salaries and the fact that the Canary Islands were invaded by Spain in the past.


----------



## Outsider

mia04 said:
			
		

> Hi
> i am practising for a exam and trying to learn about spanish society i was wondering if someone could help me with this question?
> thanx
> 
> "Existe en espana el racismo regional?"


En mi opinión, sería bueno que empezara por explicar lo que se entiende por "racismo regional".

En muchos paises, las personas de algunas regiones tienen preconceptos o actitudes superiores relativamente a personas de otras regiones, pero eso no se costumbra llamar "racismo".

¿O será que existe "racismo regional" de los ingleses relativamente a los escoceses, y "racismo regional" de los nuevaiorquinos relativamente a los americanos del sur, etc.?


----------



## cuchuflete

Please take this as a statement of memory, rather than current fact.  I have not been in Spain in many years.

During the years of the Franco regime, it was common for Madrileños to refer to the rest of the country as 'the provinces'.  This bit of arrogance was troubling at first, and then amusing to me as a foreigner.  I wouldn't call it racismo however.  Regional prejudice might be a better term.

un saludo,
Cuchuflete


----------



## Artrella

I can say that there is this kind of "regionalism"... think about the "*País* Vasco"... Last week I was talking with my aunt who is Valencià, and I asked her if Català is the same as Valencià... and she was shocked and said "We are Valencianos, we are not Catalanes"...so... I think there is this kind of "racism" although I wouldn't use such a harsh word to describe it...

I think in Italy it happens the same, I remember my hubby's nonna, she always referred to the "white people of the North" (well she was from the north, in fact) and the "short black people of the South"....


----------



## Janire

yo no diria que hay racismo. cada uno esta orgulloso de su region en mayor o menor medida, pero sin llegar a los extremos del racismo.
Lo del pais vasco es otro tema distinto.
Y especialmente entre catalanes y valencianos hay un "pique" por el idioma, ya que el valenciano, si no me equivoco, no ha sido reconocido oficialmente como idioma, sino que es un dialecto.


----------



## garryknight

From what I've seen, no one has yet mentioned _los gitanos_, the gypsies who were originally from Romania, I believe. I was reading an article in one of the Spanish daily newspapers on Sunday in which it was reported that they have a life expectancy that is 10 years less than the Spanish national average, and that their educational level is lower than the norm, largely due to their nomadic nature.

I remember reading some time ago that there used to be something of a "racial issue" regarding these folk, but I don't know if this is still the case. Perhaps someone who is native to Spain could comment.


----------



## Outsider

garryknight said:
			
		

> From what I've seen, no one has yet mentioned _los gitanos_, the gypsies who were originally from Romania, I believe.


I've heard that many times, too, but they're actually from India.


----------



## Like an Angel

Outsider said:
			
		

> En muchos países, las personas de algunas regiones tienen preconceptos o actitudes superiores (?) en relación a las personas de otras regiones, pero no se acostumbra llamar "racismo" a eso
> 
> ¿O será que existe "racismo regional" de los ingleses en relación a/para con los escoceses, y "racismo regional" de los neoyorkinos en relación a/para con los americanos del sur, etc.?


 
Some corrections Outsider


----------



## Outsider

Muchas gracias, Like an Angel.


----------



## Like an Angel

Outsider said:
			
		

> Muchas gracias, Like an Angel.


 
Não tem de quê  

I don't know much about "racismo regional" in Spain, don't know if that's the correct way to call it either but, I think that you can see "concepts" like saddly *everywhere.*

Cheers!


----------



## Samaruc

Janire said:
			
		

> Y especialmente entre catalanes y valencianos hay un "pique" por el idioma, ya que el valenciano, si no me equivoco, no ha sido reconocido oficialmente como idioma, sino que es un dialecto.



Pero qué manía con este tema...

Es muy sencillo: una misma lengua con dos denominaciones oficiales (català, valencià).

El valenciano-catalán o catalán o valenciano (úsese el nombre que se prefiera), como todo idioma, vive EN sus dialectos, no se habla otra cosa que dialectos. Ni siquiera hay una variante uniforme valenciana, dentro del territorio valenciano hay también variantes dialectales y, además, estas variantes no saben de fronteras y lo que se habla en el norte de València es exactamente lo mismo que lo que se habla en el sur de Catalunya (donde, por cierto, sólo se hablan dialectos, nadie habla EL catalán, sino variantes dialectales del catalán)... ¿Dónde está el problema con los dialectos? Tan dialectal es el "barceloní" de Barcelona como el "apitxat" de la ciudad de València, ni mejor ni peor, versiones diferentes y enriquecedoras de una misma lengua...

Janine, estoy convencido de tu buena fe en el comentario, pero, por favor, dejemos de marear con un tema cuya única finalidad es crear inseguridad y enfrentamientos estériles entre los hablantes, convertir en conflictivo lo que no lo es y, como consecuencia de todo ello, debilitar el idioma para imponer el castellano... 

Venga, un abrazo.


----------



## timpeac

jmartins said:
			
		

> This is a very thorny issue !!
> 
> I can speak for what I know firsthand. I've heard sometimes that catalans are racist against the rest of spaniards. But I am not catalan myself, and I live in Catalonia, and I have never felt treated in a racist way of any kind. So, in my experience, that racism could well be nothing but a myth.


I lived in Barcelona for a while and I remember that on more than one occasion I heard Spaniards (I assumed they were Spanish because the accent sounded good and they had dark skin and hair) speak Castillian ("standard" Spanish) to local market traders who only replied in Catalan. However, when I spoke to them in Castillian (and I am pale skinned with blond hair, so "obviously" not Spanish even if the accent didn't give it away) they were really pleased I was making the effort and would happily, and immediately, reply to me in Castillian.

This seemed like a kind of racism against Castillian speaking Spaniards to me.


----------



## asm

Quizas mi pregunta sea muy ingenua, ?pero para el caso de España podriamos decir que las diferentes regiones están habitadas por diferentes razas?

Quizás uno ve la cuestion de las razas desde el punto en que a uno le tocó vivir. En México la mayoria de la gente habla del indigena, del mestizo y del europeo. Dificilmente llegamos más lejos. El blanco es, para nosotros, europeo (español en la mayoría de los casos). Puedo aceptar que hay diferentes razas en España, pero a "ojo de buen cubero" pienso que la mayor parte de las diferencias no son raciales sino que tienen otro origen.

Sin embargo acepto que puedo estar muy lejos de la verdad, me encantaria saber más de razas españolas




			
				mia04 said:
			
		

> Hi
> i am practising for a exam and trying to learn about spanish society i was wondering if someone could help me with this question?
> thanx
> 
> "Existe en espana el racismo regional?"


----------



## Zub

En cuanto al tema de los gitanos que mencionaba garry, sí, existe un determinado racismo en España.

En cuanto al "racismo regional" que iniciaba esta discusión, creo que la palabra "racismo" está en este caso fuera de lugar.

Hay, sin duda, cuestiones (y problemas, de hecho) con los regionalismos y los nacionalismos; pero siempre hacen referencia a cuestiones culturales o económicas. Nunca a temas relacionados con la raza.

Zub


----------



## Fernando

asm said:
			
		

> Quizas mi pregunta sea muy ingenua, ?pero para el caso de España podriamos decir que las diferentes regiones están habitadas por diferentes razas?



No, en España no hay diferentes razas. Tenemos rubios, morenos y pelirrojos. Lo normal es un español moreno y bajito (bajo estándares europeos), con ligera preponderancia de rubios en el Norte y morenos en el Sur.

No hay racismo regional. Puede haber ocasionalmente discriminación a los procedentes de otras regiones (como ha comentado timpeac) pero no basado en la raza.

El único caso es el de algunos nacionalistas vascos (del sector más duro) que estiman que hay una "raza vasca" con características diferenciadoras de franceses y españoles. Durante un tiempo se habló que en los vascos el factor Rh- era más frecuente que en toda Europa y algún nacionalista vasco es decididamente racista, pero son excepciones.


----------



## Marcus

Fernando said:
			
		

> No, en España no hay diferentes razas. Tenemos rubios, morenos y pelirrojos. Lo normal es un español moreno y bajito (bajo estándares europeos), con ligera preponderancia de rubios en el Norte y morenos en el Sur.
> 
> No hay racismo regional. Puede haber ocasionalmente discriminación a los procedentes de otras regiones (como ha comentado timpeac) pero no basado en la raza.
> 
> El único caso es el de algunos nacionalistas vascos (del sector más duro) que estiman que hay una "raza vasca" con características diferenciadoras de franceses y españoles. Durante un tiempo se habló que en los vascos el factor Rh- era más frecuente que en toda Europa y algún nacionalista vasco es decididamente racista, pero son excepciones.


Yo creo que no existe ni un solo rincón del mundo donde no haya una persona racista... y creedme.. donde hay una persona, siempre hay más.
El racismo regional y el racismo en general van muy dádos de la mano, pués normalmente cuando uno es racista para unas cosas, también lo es para otras.

Yo vivo en Sabadell, ciudad que cae muy cerca de Barcelona y desde ya hace cientos de años que hemos estado enfrentados con los de Terrassa, por varios motivos, aunque los más claros son que siempre se han disputado ser província de región. Actualmente lo es Sabadell. Eso como podeis entender a provocado rivalidades y más de un conflicto. Los sabadelleses y los de Terrassa nunca se han podido ver mucho. ¿Consideraríamos esto racismo regional? Yo creo que no. Yo lo veo más como un conflicto de intereses, y una rivalidad myu antigua entre nosotros. Una especie de manía mútua, pero no lo veo como racismo...
Marcus


----------



## Travelman

Dear All,

I think English is lack of a word referring to a wider view than racism... In Spanish exist:
Racismo: When you dislike people of other race (black, white...)
Xenofobia: When you dislike people from abroad (other country...)
I think that Spanish people is in general quite "xenofoba". The "pride" of their concrete origin is sometimes associated with the contempt for people from other places. 
That's why in Spain is so common, the nationalisms and regionalisms. Just an example: of the 11 political parties with representation in the Spanish Congress, 8 are regionalist or nationalist.

Hasta luego,

Miguel


----------



## jmx

timpeac said:
			
		

> I lived in Barcelona for a while and I remember that on more than one occasion I heard Spaniards (I assumed they were Spanish because the accent sounded good and they had dark skin and hair) speak Castillian ("standard" Spanish) to local market traders who only replied in Catalan. However, when I spoke to them in Castillian (and I am pale skinned with blond hair, so "obviously" not Spanish even if the accent didn't give it away) they were really pleased I was making the effort and would happily, and immediately, reply to me in Castillian.
> 
> This seemed like a kind of racism against Castillian speaking Spaniards to me.


One possible explanation for that behaviour is that the market traders assumed that the spanish-speaking people had been living in Catalonia for a long time, as it is often the case; while they assumed that you were living there only for a short time.

By the way, did you come to the conclusion that all spaniards have "dark skin and hair" ? Funny, because we don't see ourselves that way. :-O


----------



## timpeac

jmartins said:
			
		

> One possible explanation for that behaviour is that the market traders assumed that the spanish-speaking people had been living in Catalonia for a long time, as it is often the case; while they assumed that you were living there only for a short time.
> 
> By the way, did you come to the conclusion that all spaniards have "dark skin and hair" ? Funny, because we don't see ourselves that way. :-O


 
Well, compared to pale old me, yes!


----------



## garryknight

timpeac said:
			
		

> Well, compared to pale old me, yes!


Tim, you should pop down to Trafalgar Square some time. You'd be amazed at how many blonde-haired, blue-eyed Spanish speakers you'll come across.

On the original subject, I haven't seen anybody mention it, so I thought I'd remind everyone that "race" is nothing more than a matter of perception and interpretation that isn't borne out genetically. I'm sure most people know this but it can be too easy to fall into the trap of talking about "race" as if it were real.


----------



## Marcus

Travelman I don't agree with you at all. English could even have an extended list of vocabulary related with xenophobia and racism. Looking at our other side of the world we can see the US. Those who have or have had very big racism problems with afro-americans, latinos, and now seems like they also have some problems with iraquians. (don't mean to generalizewith all the people from the US, and sorry if that hurts any sensibility, not my intention)

But I'm really sure they have a lot of terms related and associated with racism and xenophobya too!

Note: Not trying to be mean, I'm just facing reality facts


----------



## rainbow

garryknight said:
			
		

> On the original subject, I haven't seen anybody mention it, so I thought I'd remind everyone that "race" is nothing more than a matter of perception and interpretation that isn't borne out genetically. *I'm sure most people know this but it can be too easy to fall into the trap of talking about "race" as if it were real*.


 
I agree with you Garry


----------



## timpeac

garryknight said:
			
		

> Tim, you should pop down to Trafalgar Square some time. You'd be amazed at how many blonde-haired, blue-eyed Spanish speakers you'll come across.


 

Hehe, I'm sure you're right. I do remember thinking when I was in Spain that there were blonde spaniards but you never see them on the streets because they are all kidnapped and taken to the TV stations to be news readers and weather-girls/men, since in these jobs it appeared to be mandatory.


----------



## jmx

timpeac said:
			
		

> Hehe, I'm sure you're right. I do remember thinking when I was in Spain that there were blonde spaniards but you never see them on the streets because they are all kidnapped and taken to the TV stations to be news readers and weather-girls/men, since in these jobs it appeared to be mandatory.


There's an old joke that it isn't true that all spaniards are dark-haired. Only men are dark-haired, while women are blonde. On the other hand, if you visited Barcelona *in summer*, you certainly saw all people with very dark skins.


----------



## vanessamoreno

Como han dicho anteriormente, no creo que se le pueda llamar racismo, sin embargo, la pluralidad cultural que compone la nacionalidad española, es un hecho. Y allí donde hay pluralidad hay diferencia. No obstante, creo que en España, estas diferencias culturales, económicas y sociales no llegan al racismo o xenofobia, soy de Madrid y no se me ha tratado de manera despectiva en ninguna zona de la geografía Española aunque los gobiernos, idiomas y costumbres sean distintas. Tal vez podriamos decir que en ciertos lugares hay envidias al igual que sus opuestos se creen superiores, pero a excepción del tema vasco no hay ningún problema social, sino más bien político, de caracter nacionalista.
espero que te sirva para lo que quieres estudiar.
Vanessa


----------



## zebedee

vanessamoreno said:
			
		

> a excepción del tema vasco no hay ningún problema social, *sino más bien político*, de caracter nacionalista.


 
Estoy de acuerdo, sobre todo en el tema catalunya/españa es más una cuestión política que otra cosa.

Como ejemplo, el viaje de cortesía reciente del Presidente de la Generalitat de Catalunya, Pascual Maragall, y el líder de ERC, Josep-Lluís Carod-Rovira, a Israel.

Carod decidió ausentarse del homenaje al fallecido Isaac Rabin, ex-primer ministro de Israel, cuando vió que la bandera/senyera catalana no estaba ondeando al lado de la española en la ceremonia.

Y Maragall entregó una corona floral en homenaje a los víctimas del holocausto a la que faltaba la cinta con la bandera española al lado de la cinta con la senyera catalana. Lo atribuyó a "un error de la floristería"...

Por supuesto que estos dos acontecimientos salieron en toda la prensa nacional.
http://www.diariodecadiz.com/diariodecadiz/articulo.asp?idart=1339960&idcat=724

zeb


----------



## haujavi

vanessamoreno said:
			
		

> Como han dicho anteriormente, no creo que se le pueda llamar racismo, sin embargo, la pluralidad cultural que compone la nacionalidad española, es un hecho. Y allí donde hay pluralidad hay diferencia. No obstante, creo que en España, estas diferencias culturales, económicas y sociales no llegan al racismo o xenofobia, soy de Madrid y no se me ha tratado de manera despectiva en ninguna zona de la geografía Española aunque los gobiernos, idiomas y costumbres sean distintas. Tal vez podriamos decir que en ciertos lugares hay envidias al igual que sus opuestos se creen superiores, pero a excepción del tema vasco no hay ningún problema social, sino más bien político, de caracter nacionalista.
> espero que te sirva para lo que quieres estudiar.
> Vanessa


 
Hombre, lo del "tema vasco" es más un tema político y de terrorismo más que un problema social.


----------



## vanessamoreno

tienes razón, me he expresado mal, El problema del pais vasco, atañe tanto lo político, como el terrorismo, pero lo que quería decir, es que el "tema " Vasco, es probablemente el único que tiene una transcendencia social significativa, sin ser racista, unos u otros, pero es que se ha llegado a crear vocabulario para diferenciar a unos y otros, mientras antes se habalaba de españoles y nacionalistas, que sin duda llevaba a confusión porque ambos grupos vascos independentistas y españloles del resto de la peninsula podian incluirse en las dos modalidades, ahora se habla de constitucionalistas (aquellos que desean mantenerse bajo "la protección " de la constitución española del 78) y los nacionalistas (Vascos con interés por culminar la autodeterminación de su pueblo con una constitución propia) y por otra parte terroristas que abogan las premisas de los nacionalistas.
No pretendia ofenderte haujavi, perdona.


----------



## haujavi

vanessamoreno said:
			
		

> tienes razón, me he expresado mal, El problema del pais vasco, atañe tanto lo político, como el terrorismo, pero lo que quería decir, es que el "tema " Vasco, es probablemente el único que tiene una transcendencia social significativa, sin ser racista, unos u otros, pero es que se ha llegado a crear vocabulario para diferenciar a unos y otros, mientras antes se habalaba de españoles y nacionalistas, que sin duda llevaba a confusión porque ambos grupos vascos independentistas y españloles del resto de la peninsula podian incluirse en las dos modalidades, ahora se habla de constitucionalistas (aquellos que desean mantenerse bajo "la protección " de la constitución española del 78) y los nacionalistas (Vascos con interés por culminar la autodeterminación de su pueblo con una constitución propia) y por otra parte terroristas que abogan las premisas de los nacionalistas.
> No pretendia ofenderte haujavi, perdona.


 
Que no me ofendía hombre, tú tranquila . Que yo también soy un poco tiquismiquis . Con tu explicación me ha quedado todo claro.


----------



## DickHavana

Fernando said:


> El único caso es el de algunos nacionalistas vascos (del sector más duro) que estiman que hay una "raza vasca" con características diferenciadoras de franceses y españoles. Durante un tiempo se habló que en los vascos el factor Rh- era más frecuente que en toda Europa y algún nacionalista vasco es decididamente racista, pero son excepciones.




Lo de la raza vasca, factores RH, cadenas genéticas, etc, no se lo han inventado los nacionalistas vascos, sino que lo han afirmado unos cuantos científicos (de hecho, la mayoría de ellos extranjeros) . Cada vez que alguien desde el entorno nacionalista vasco se ha referido a este tema, se ha desvirtuado y sacado de contexto en los medios de comunicación intentando venderlo como racismo (Fue histórica en ese sentido la alusión al RH- de Arzalluz, que intentando señalar un hecho diferencial ante los que tantas veces los niegan, fue presentada por los medios como toda una apología del racismo: bastaba leer lo que realmente dijo para ver hasta qué punto era diferente de lo que señalaban ciertas portadas). Aquí nadie va pidiendo ni extendiendo certificados de pureza ni cosas parecidas, y una prueba bastante evidente (y desgraciada) es que entre las huestes de ETA son casi tan abundantes los apellidos castellanos como los vascos. Aquí no hay ningún problema de racismo, en todo caso es un tema político y de identificación nacional. Que haya gente empeñada en desdibujarlo, allá ella.

Puedo hablar por ejemplo de mi experiencia personal: vasco, casado con una mujer de Murcia, me muevo en un entorno en el que abundan los que algunos supongo llamarían "nacionalistas del sector más duro" y te aseguro que jamás han puesto la más mínima traba a su origen. Es más, es recibida con los brazos bien abiertos. Y te puedo asegurar que he visto bastantes más caras de recelo en Murcia cuando ella me ha presentado como vasco que en el País Vasco cuando la he presentado como murciana (supongo que es por el hecho político, de acuerdo). 

Sobre el tema del hilo, no se puede hablar de racismo regional, pero sí es cierto que en España han abundado en demasiada gente las "pequeñas xenofobias regionales" : he oído toda mi vida (y los cuarenta ya no los cumplo) generalizaciones despectivas sobre vascos y catalanes en toda la península, comentarios de  navarros despectivos con el aragonés y de aragoneses despectivos con el navarro, comentarios despectivos sobre los andaluces, sobre los que viven al sur de Madrid, sobre los valencianos y de éstos sobre los murcianos, de los canarios sobre los peninsulares, y así hasta la eternidad. Y los he oído por toda España. También es cierto que creo que estas cosas van pasando a la historia a medida que el mundo está más interconectado y tu vecino de al lado ha dejado de constituir "el límite de tu universo".

PD: Descubrí casualmente no hace muchos años que efectivamente mi RH es negativo, jamás me ha creado ningún sentimiento ni complejo de superioridad, sé que mi mujer es RH positivo porque obviamente tuvimos que mirar esas cosas cuando se quedó embarazada, y a día de hoy ignoro (ni me preocupa fuera de la importancia que a nivel médico tiene este tema) qué tipo de sangre tiene mi hijo de 3 años. Supongo que sale en algún informe médico que estará con sus papeles personales, y punto. Se ha fantaseado tanto sobre estos temas que hoy en día me encuentro con la ironía de que siendo por mi nombre y apellidos claramente identificable como vasco, el mero hecho de preguntar al médico por el tipo de sangre de mi hijo (con el lógico fin por el que cualquier padre querría saberlo) me produce cierto reparo porque parece que van a pensar: "¿Ves? Esos nacionalistas vascos, siempre obsesionados con el RH".

En resumen, ¿racismo y xenofobia intrínsecas a algunos en el País Vasco? Supongo que del mismo modo que pueda haber en algunos en España, en Francia o el Benelux. Ni esto es la Arcadia feliz ni somos el demonio. Hay un problema político serio que desdibuja las cosas, pero algunos temas deberían ir colocándose en su sitio.

Saludos


----------



## xarruc

> I've heard sometimes that catalans are racist against the rest of spaniards


 


> I heard Spaniards...speak Castillian...to local market traders who only replied in Catalan. However, when I spoke to them in Castillian... they...would...reply to me in Castillian.


 


> One possible explanation for that behaviour is that the market traders assumed that the spanish-speaking people had been living in Catalonia for a long time,


 
There is a tendency in Catalunya to favour all things Catalan over anything 'Spanish'. I imagine that this is not unusual, and happens to a greater or lesser extent in all societies. This means that the Sardana is seen as a great folk dance and Flamenco as something silly and old-fashioned from down there. Likewise Catalan recipes, Catalan songs, traditions and history are fully supported by both the population and state. By an extension all things Spanish are to some extent derrided, and this behaviour is actively encouraged (c.f. England where it is actively discouraged). This is justified by the Catalans through the fact that Catalan culture was repressed and requiered a concerted effort to be revivied. In many people this extends, naturally, to the language, which was also repressed by Franco. This pride, instilled in every 'good' Catalan since birth leads them to speak Catalan at every opportunity.

If you don't speak Catalan in Catalunya you will be at a disadvantage in many ways, particularly in the more skilled jobs. Generally many jobs require you to speak Catalan and so immigrants who do not learn are excluding themselves from potential career success. 

If you are a foreigner who learns Spanish not Catalan you are forgiven, (if you do you will be rewarded) but woe betide any immigrant from Spain or South America who comes over and does not learn. They are considered rude, arrogant and anti-Catalan. Consequently the hardline Catalans often treat these people with disdain. There is a very large proportion of the population who fit into this immigrant group.

Where you stand on whether or not they are discriminated against is a trickier issue. One political party suggested that people should be denied welfare unless they learned Catalan. Many Catalans seem ignorant, in my opinion, of just how many non-Catalan-speaking Catalan residents there are, and thet there are many people *born* in Catalunya who dont speak Catalan.

In the end it comes down, not so much regional racism rather a consenus that those who chose not to fit-in don't deserve to be treated equally. Whether that's right or wrong...is up to you.


----------



## chics

timpeac said:


> I lived in Barcelona for a while and I remember that on more than one occasion I heard Spaniards (I assumed they were Spanish because the accent sounded good and they had dark skin and hair) speak Castillian ("standard" Spanish) to local market traders who only replied in Catalan. However, when I spoke to them in Castillian (and I am pale skinned with blond hair, so "obviously" not Spanish even if the accent didn't give it away) they were really pleased I was making the effort and would happily, and immediately, reply to me in Castillian.
> 
> This seemed like a kind of racism against Castillian speaking Spaniards to me.


 
En Cataluña la gente es bilingüe y no hay problemas en que una persona hable catalán (si le es más cómodo) con otra que está hablando castellano (que también lo prefiere). Es normal.

Tampoco es un problema que alguien que viva en un sitio aprenda su lengua.

A ti te hablaron en castellano por que enseguida vieron que eres una guiri, por el aspecto y el acento, y supusieron que no hablabas el catalán, que ya batante tienes con intentar el castellano. Tengo que decir que tengo amigos extrangeros a los que esto les supone un problema, bien por que se sienten más cómodos en catalán (y siempre tienen qu dar explicaciones) o bien por que lo intentan practicar, para aprenderlo, y también tienen que explicarlo "no, por favor, háblame en catalán, que te entiendo" o "...aunque me cueste más que el castellano, que quiero aprender".

Yo también tengo la piel muy clara, así que a menudo, en un intento de ser amables ¡me hablan en inglés!


----------



## ernest_

Hi xarruc,

Sorry mate, but it is a wee bit skewed what you said.



> This means that the Sardana is seen as a great folk dance and Flamenco as something silly and old-fashioned from down there.


This is nowhere near true. Sardana is certainly regarded as a thing of the past. If you admit to like sardana in public, it would be considered either a joke or an eccentricity, no doubt about that. Flamenco is seen as something typical Spanish, just like the Marseillaise is seen as something typical French.



> Likewise Catalan recipes, Catalan songs, traditions and history are fully supported by both the population and state. By an extension all things Spanish are to some extent derrided, and this behaviour is actively encouraged (c.f. England where it is actively discouraged).


I can't think of anything Spanish that is actively discouraged, honestly.  There are a lot of Spanish immigrants here, mostly from Andalucia, and I can tell you that every year they organise a bloody big cultural party, and the money comes straight from the Catalan Government.  



> This is justified by the Catalans through the fact that Catalan culture was repressed and requiered a concerted effort to be revivied. In many people this extends, naturally, to the language, which was also repressed by Franco. This pride, instilled in every 'good' Catalan since birth leads them to speak Catalan at every opportunity.


Not at all. It has nothing to do with pride nor with Franco's repression.  You may not understand it, you being English and all, but just go to any country in similar circumstances, such as the Netherlands, and see what kind of policies have over there. The sad truth is that weak cultures are at stake because of the massive immigration taking place these days.  Catalans are bilingual, that means that they all understand and speak Spanish fluently. Thus, immigrants have little incentives to learn the "language of the land". That's why government intervention is justified.  Just look at what happened in Scotland. Both Scots and Gaelic are almost dead. We don't want this to happen here, that's all.



> If you are a foreigner who learns Spanish not Catalan you are forgiven, (if you do you will be rewarded) but woe betide any immigrant from Spain or South America who comes over and does not learn. They are considered rude, arrogant and anti-Catalan. Consequently the hardline Catalans often treat these people with disdain. There is a very large proportion of the population who fit into this immigrant group.


That's not entirely true either. It is certainly the case that if you speak Spanish with a foreign accent people will speak Spanish to you, and first-class immigrants (i.e. those coming from wealthy countries) are not expected to speak Catalan at all. I recall a famous Dutch football player who once, without any warning, answered a journalist in Catalan. People couldn't believe it! He was in the front-pages of local newspapers next morning.

With other types of immigrants is different. Newcomers, namely people from Africa, South America, Asia and Eastern Europe, are not expected to speak Catalan nor understand it either. However, it is assumed that they will learn it at some point, if they are to live here for a long period of time.

Spanish immigrants may be the ones that recieve the worst treatment, but that's just because a Spanish immigrant who has just arrived is undistinguishable from a Spanish immigrant who's been living here for 40 years. If someone speaks Spanish to you with a Spanish accent, you can't tell whether he is a tourist, a Spanish immigrant or Spanish-speaking Catalan. Since the later are far more common, you will probably speak Catalan to them, because these people are supposed to understand Catalan. Of course, if they are indeed a tourist or recently established immigrants, they may feel that Catalans are arrogant people who are unkind to the Spanish, but that's hardly the case.


----------



## xarruc

> This is nowhere near true. Sardana is certainly regarded as a thing of the past


 
OK the sardana is clearly a thing of the past. But they are a cherished thing to those who like them, much like the Morris dancing in the UK, and they still draw a good number of dancers, admittedly generally the older generation, in every town once or twice a week. The Catalans have no 'ownership' of Flamenco, naturally as it is an Andalucian thing, and it is not esteemed here. I just used it as an example of one of many things considered Spanish yet rejected here, which leads on to the rejection of the Spanish language and its implications for non-Catalan speaking Catalans.



> I can't think of anything Spanish that is actively discouraged, honestly.


 
It is common to be told, "we don't do that here because it's Spanish." Not "we don't do that here because we don't like it". Not "we don't do it because we wern't brought up doing it," But "we don't do that here because it's Spanish." They may all be true but the reason given is that it's Spanish. It's often tongue-in-cheek, but the sentiment is still there.

Some Spanish things I perceive as discouraged or disapproved of in Catalunya, principally for not being of Catalan origen : Flamenco and traditional Spanish music in general, toros, sangria, dia de hispanidad and the royal family. But these are more iconic things, and of course there exceptions and I personally know Catalans who make exceptions to all of those things.

There are many little things. Half jokes and subtle things hard to explain. I have explained the English pub crawl to several Catalans. "We dont do that here." They say. "They do in the Pais Basque." They don't say they don't want to, they say they don't do it here. Its a subtle but telling difference, I think.

I have colleagues that are very pro-Catalunya, others who speak Catalan perfectly yet prefer Spanish and others who have no preference. There are times that one or another will say something positive about Spain and then suddenly realise that they have received a disapproving look, and back out of it a bit. You see it’s very acceptable to be pro-catalunya, but frowned upon to be both pro-Catalunya and pro-Spain.



> It has nothing to do with pride nor with Franco's repression.


 
I disagree. I knew nothing of Catalunya before I came here and very little about Spain. My experience of getting to know many Catalans is that the ghost of Franco still lingers on in the Catalan psyche. The PP are still seen as his successors and Catalan as a culture deprived of many years and still in need of help.



> The sad truth is that weak cultures are at stake because of the massive immigration taking place these days.


 
I think modernity is homogenising all societies. Quaint traditions are the first to go. People prefer to watch the TV. Immigration just provides more possibilities to do something different. You may consider a Catalan going to an Indian restaurant a nail in the coffin for Catalan cuisine. I consider it more choice. The people vote with their wallets.



> Catalans are bilingual, that means that they all understand and speak Spanish fluently. Thus, immigrants have little incentives to learn the "language of the land". That's why government intervention is justified. Just look at what happened in Scotland. Both Scots and Gaelic are almost dead. We don't want this to happen here, that's all.


 
Keeping a language alive is not free. Both in opportunity cost and the cost of ensuring information is available in two languages despite the fact that one would suffice. You obviously believe that it is right that taxpayers pay for that. Others would disagree. Personally I am not sure. I certainly see no sense in what was aired recently on Catalan TV of a debate in Catalan where one of the users had to wear headphones to receive a translation. It cost money, but didn’t achieve anything: the debaters were not able communicate as effectively with one another as they would have without the translator, and the viewers had a somewhat muddled programme as a result.

Beyond keeping a language alive, one has to question the correctness of a policy that seeks to increase the usage of the minority language at the expense of the other: In an economic level it serves as a barrier to trade both in the market and labour market. On a ethical level you have taxpayer’s money paying for things such as entertainment in every town which not all the taxpayer’s can appreciate. On a sociological level you have people brought up in Spanish-speaking barrios who through no fault of their own, speak Catalan less than adequately and so are excluded from certain positions, and when you restrict Catalan universities to speaking Catalan, you close off the opportunity of Catalan students to profit from perhaps better, yet non-Catalan speaking professors.




> However, it is assumed that they will learn it at some point, if they are to live here for a long period of time.


 
Both for people brought up speaking Spanish in Catalonia and immigrants, many people are not able to learn another language, let alone two, especially when the incentives are not that high. Immigrants are frequently those with low education as those that are comfortable generally do not risk everything they have, including at times their lives, to migrate. Many people have to juggle one or two jobs and kids. They have neither the money nor the time for study.




> Since the later are far more common, you will probably speak Catalan to them, because these people are supposed to understand Catalan


 
See above. What harm does it do you to speak to these people in the manner that they prefer? They too have to do their best in Catalan at other times: when they receive mail in Catalan or see signposts in Catalan.


----------



## ampurdan

I'm a Catalan. I'm a Spaniard too. I find sardanas quite boring and once I forced me to like sevillanas and flamenco, but I couldn't, yet I see they are beautiful dance and singing. Perhaps when I'm older... Or when I have a little more "duende" (magic)... I like Indian restaurants.

I've never said that I do not do something because it's Spanish, except when talking about language, yet It's true that some people say such things, not all of them intending to be scornful.

I'm a Catalan speaker but there's many people to whom I speak Spanish, even though they understand and talk a flawless Catalan too.

If it were just for the sake of communication, I would not support the public funds devoted to Catalan, of course. I would impose the most important language of the wolrd. But language is not only about communication. 

What's my point? Well, my point is that yes, Catalans can be as chauvinists as French, as jealous of they customs as Brits and as pigheaded and envious as (the rest of) Spaniards.


----------



## Outsider

xarruc said:


> Beyond keeping a language alive, one has to question the correctness of a policy that seeks to increase the usage of the minority language at the expense of the other: In an economic level it serves as a barrier to trade both in the market and labour market.


What do you mean?


----------



## xarruc

A barrier to trade is anything that prevents free trade. Import duties is the most obvious and technical standards one of the more crafty ones.

Most economists support the idea that barriers to trade are bad for economies as they prevent the best product from winning in the marketplace. Language can be a barrier to trade. 

For example: It is law that radio stations in Catalunya have to broadcast a certain portion of the time in Catalan. This favours a station based in catalunya because it does does not have to run a two editions for the portion of the time required by law. The station based out of Catalunya has to double its production costs for that portion of the time that it is in Catalan so that it can produce a version in Castellano for the rest of Spain and a version in Catalan for Catalunya.

The same happens in a labour market. Although a Spaniard has every right to work in Catalunya, he or she may find it harder to get work as they don't speak Catalan. Consider a hypothetical situation where of two job applicants the otherwise better qualified and experienced loses because being able to speak Catalan is considered more important than the extra qualification/experience. Were it not for the existence of Catalan then the company would benefit from the more experienced candidate, and in theory succed better in the marketplace. The increased difficulty, or slower promotion of non-Catalan speakers reduces the flow of the top people to Catalunya, and so under in theory harms the Catalan economy.


----------



## Outsider

I could rewrite your objection as follows:



xarruc said:


> For example: It is law that radio stations in Spain have to broadcast a certain portion of the time in Spanish. This favours a station based in Spain because it does does not have to run a two editions for the portion of the time required by law. The station based out of Spain (say, in the U.K.) has to double its production costs for that portion of the time that it is in Spain so that it can produce a version in English for the rest of Europe and a version in Spanish for Spain.
> 
> The same happens in a labour market. Although an Englishman has every right to work in Spain, he or she may find it harder to get work as they don't speak English. Consider a hypothetical situation where of two job applicants the otherwise better qualified and experienced loses because being able to speak Spanish is considered more important than the extra qualification/experience. Were it not for the existence of Spanish then the company would benefit from the more experienced candidate, and in theory succed better in the marketplace. The increased difficulty, or slower promotion of non-Spanish speakers reduces the flow of the top people to Spain, and so under in theory harms the Spanish economy.


Thus rewritten, what you present as an objection sounds like a perfectly reasonable situation to me. If it is indeed a barrier to free trade, I am very tempted to reply that traders will just have to accept such restrictions as a fact of life, as they do with many other things (e.g. trade tariffs, political influences, geographical barriers, corruption...)

But I am not even sure that multilinguism really is such a serious barrier as you say. If you don't know the language of your business partner, you can always hire a translator. You'll even be opening up a new market, with all sorts of new jobs and business opportunities...


----------



## xarruc

What you have rewritten is also very true in my eyes. If Europe spoke one language it would be a very different place.



> I am very tempted to reply that traders will just have to accept such restrictions as a fact of life, as they do with many other things


 
'Tis true as the mindset here will not change for at least one generation.



> I am not even sure that multilinguism really is such a serious barrier as you say.


 
In terms of the labour markets, the number of people pouring out of the UK to Europe every year is enormous. One of the big reasons not to leave the UK, however, after family stability etc., is the language barrier. Of those that do leave, there are ex-pat website chatboards (so I'm told) full with people complaining about how difficult it is to find a job due to the language barrier. I certainly know many qualified people who settled for less than they would have in the UK, such as post-docs becoming English teachers.

In terms of trade I don't know how big a deal the language is. Probably not enormous. I wonder how many international companies trade in Spain yet ignore Portugal, simply due to the extra costs (rewriting the packaging, legal contracts, helplines, internal correspondence, marketing etc.), but that initial cost must delay the expansion (you wouldn't bother if it was just one outlet).


----------



## ernest_

xarruc said:


> I just used it as an example of one of many things considered Spanish yet rejected here, which leads on to the rejection of the Spanish language and its implications for non-Catalan speaking Catalans.


What do you mean rejection of the Spanish language?  I have learned and I speak Spanish every single day of my life even though it is not my mother tongue. TV and radio stations are Spanish-only, with few exceptions. The vast majority of newspapers are in Spanish as well. You want books in Catalan? Be ready to spend extra money, if you are lucky enough to find a Catalan edition at all. To me it doesn't look like we've rejected anything. We have plenty of Spanish things and Spanish language everywhere.



> Some Spanish things I perceive as discouraged or disapproved of in Catalunya, principally for not being of Catalan origen : Flamenco and traditional Spanish music in general, toros, sangria, dia de hispanidad and the royal family.


Good heavens! So what if I'm a republican? Do I have to turn myself into a monarchist to PROVE that I don't hate Spanish things?



> You see it’s very acceptable to be pro-catalunya, but frowned upon to be both pro-Catalunya and pro-Spain.


That depends on who you have around.



> I disagree. I knew nothing of Catalunya before I came here and very little about Spain. My experience of getting to know many Catalans is that the ghost of Franco still lingers on in the Catalan psyche. The PP are still seen as his successors and Catalan as a culture deprived of many years and still in need of help.


Well, we know what our lovely neighbours have done to us and to every single country they have colonised throughout the history. We know that and we know it well.



> I think modernity is homogenising all societies. Quaint traditions are the first to go. People prefer to watch the TV. Immigration just provides more possibilities to do something different. You may consider a Catalan going to an Indian restaurant a nail in the coffin for Catalan cuisine. I consider it more choice. The people vote with their wallets.


Alright, so now the bairns watch Japanese cartoons, and people eat at Chinese restaurants. What's new? We have had these for yonks. It's not that what we are talking about. I couldn't care less about silly traditions or restaurants, what I do care about is my culture (that is, my language, my identity) being replaced with another culture. This of course has nothing to do with choice. No one in their right mind would choose that. It would be like saying that the Apaches disapeared because they chose to disapear, which is obviously ridiculous.



> Beyond keeping a language alive, one has to question the correctness of a policy that seeks to increase the usage of the minority language at the expense of the other: In an economic level it serves as a barrier to trade both in the market and labour market. On a ethical level you have taxpayer’s money paying for things such as entertainment in every town which not all the taxpayer’s can appreciate. On a sociological level you have people brought up in Spanish-speaking barrios who through no fault of their own, speak Catalan less than adequately and so are excluded from certain positions, and when you restrict Catalan universities to speaking Catalan, you close off the opportunity of Catalan students to profit from perhaps better, yet non-Catalan speaking professors.


Of course, languages are a “barrier” to trade, so what? You know, oceans and mountains are also a barrier to trade. Bloody landforms! They have nothing to do but stand there blocking trade.

Your questioning of the ethics of taxation, I don't believe it belongs here.

As for Catalan Spanish-speakers being excluded I honestly fail to see this as well. Remember that education in this country is free for all, so they shouldn't be excluded at all. If they don't care to learn Catalan of course they will be excluded, just like I would have been excluded if I hadn't cared to learn Spanish. And it is a blatant lie that in Catalan universities the Spanish language is somehow discriminated. Coming straight out of a Catalan university I can tell you that teachers speak both Catalan and Spanish, the latter being predominant. I have never seen anyone having a problem due to using Spanish, while I have had two switch to Spanish in several occasions, because some foreign student didn't understand me. Not that I have a problem with that, but please stop saying things that are not true.



> Immigrants are frequently those with low education as those that are comfortable generally do not risk everything they have, including at times their lives, to migrate. Many people have to juggle one or two jobs and kids. They have neither the money nor the time for study.


Come on! Are you telling me that in FORTY years they haven't had time to study a language? Sounds a bit far-fetched, if you ask me. It's not like we were asking them to be able to write poetry or anything. We are talking about basic knowledge of the language. If they can't say a single word after forty years living here, it's not that thay are unable to learn, it's that they are UNWILLING to learn. It's up to them of course, but don't come crying talkin about discrimination then.



> See above. What harm does it do you to speak to these people in the manner that they prefer? They too have to do their best in Catalan at other times: when they receive mail in Catalan or see signposts in Catalan.


I told you, if they don't understand me I talk to them in Spanish. What I don't find acceptable is that decades later they still have problems with being addressed in Catalan.


----------



## Namakemono

Outsider said:


> I've heard that many times, too, but they're actually from India.


 
Strange. I heard the term "gitano" was originally "egiptano", meaning they were from Egypt. As for the original question, if the gypsies have a lower life expectancy is not really a matter of discrimination. They just prefer to live in ghettos.


----------



## Outsider

Namakemono said:


> Strange. I heard the term "gitano" was originally "egiptano", meaning they were from Egypt.


No, Europeans just _thought_ they were from Egypt, because of their darker skin (or so the story goes). Their Romani language is unmistakably Indian.


----------



## DickHavana

Namakemono said:


> Strange. I heard the term "gitano" was originally "egiptano", meaning they were from Egypt. As for the original question, if the gypsies have a lower life expectancy is not really a matter of discrimination. They just prefer to live in ghettos.



Un cronista de la época documentó la llegada de los gitanos a París en la Edad Media. Presentaron a su patriarca como príncipe y decían que venían de Egipto y eran "cristianos egipcianos" que habían sido expulsados por los musulmanes. Aunque la gente se lo creyó, indudablemente era un cuento chino que se habían inventado para caer bien. Parece que del término "egipciano" vinieron palabras como "gitano" y "gypsie". 

El desplazamiento real de población hacia Europa Occidental se produjo desde Hungría y los Balcanes, donde llevaban ya unos años. Su origen último es desde luego la India y el romaní pertenece al mismo grupo de lenguas que el rajasthani o el hindi. Por aquí se habló hace poquito de todo esto. http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=64321


----------



## xarruc

Hi ernest

We’re getting hopelessly off the topic under discussion, namely the regional racism in Spain. I apologise for my part in that deviation. I will try to address your comments as briefly as possible. My original post spelled out some of the perceptions I have picked up since I came to live in Catalunya, both in Barcelona and in a village outside Girona. Personally I am fairly neutral regarding my opinion of Catalan affairs. For the record I prefer speaking Catalan to Spanish but consider hardline catalanism to be to the detriment of the economy and society.

Many Catalans I know would agree with Ampurdan and say “I'm a Catalan. I'm a Spaniard too.” There are some Spanish immigrants I know that haven’t a nice word to say about Catalunya, and I understand how many Catalans take offence at this. Likewise there are many Catalans without a nice word to say about Spain, and I understand how Spaniards take offence at that.




> What do you mean rejection of the Spanish language


 
You may be forced to speak Spanish everyday. That does not imply that you don’t reject it. You would, I am sure from what you say in your posts, prefer to not have to speak Spanish.




> TV and radio stations are Spanish-only, with few exceptions.


 
There are 5 Spanish TV channels that I receive. Two of those broadcast partially in Catalan. I also receive three Catalan channels, of which two broadcast exclusively in Catalan. Radio channels- I don’t know, I certainly don’t have any problem finding a channel in either language. As for books, you cannot claim that there is no access to Catalan books. Perhaps the rarer books aren’t translated, that’s just part and parcel of being a smaller language and happens in every language to some extent.




> Good heavens! So what if I'm a republican? Do I have to turn myself into a monarchist to PROVE that I don't hate Spanish things?


 
A good bit of sophism this. I never stated that liking one of these would prove a taste for Spain, simply that part of the common dislike to these things was that they are considered to be from Spain and not Catalunya.




> I couldn't care less about silly traditions or restaurants, what I do care about is my culture (that is, my language, my identity) being replaced with another culture.


 
Your definition of culture is narrower than mine. In fact for me personally, language does not feature as a major part of my culture. Millions speak English who do not share my culture. If I never spoke another word of English I don’t believe that I would lose my identity. However, you’re of course free to consider whatever you like pertinent to your culture. It’s interesting that in Britain multiculturalism, mutual understanding and acceptance of changing societal norms, partially brought on by immigration, are now taught as part of the national curriculum.




> It would be like saying that the Apaches disapeared because they chose to disapear, which is obviously ridiculous.


 
The Apaches fought an invading people. They had no choice. The Catalans are not fighting an invading force. If people choose to do traditional activities and speak the traditional language of the region or not is entirely up to them. If they choose to, fine, if they choose not to, fine.




> Of course, languages are a “barrier” to trade, so what? You know, oceans and mountains are also a barrier to trade. Bloody landforms! They have nothing to do but stand there blocking trade.


I didn’t say anything was wrong with that, per se. I just pointed out one of the costs of maintaining two languages. I offered no judgment of the rights and wrongs of it. Likewise the ethics of such a policy. I offered no judgment there, simply a statement that it deserved consideration.




> As for Catalan Spanish-speakers being excluded I honestly fail to see this as well. Remember that education in this country is free for all, *so they shouldn't be excluded at all*.


Not all Spaniards are taught Catalan. Nowadays those brought up here are but I understand that they weren’t in the past. Immigrants weren’t taught Catalan before they came here.



> If they don't care to learn Catalan of course they will be excluded,


 
So they shouldn’t be excluded…unless they don’t do what I say.

If it is not necessary to speak Catalan in a particular activity should they be excluded from that activity?




> it is a blatant lie that in Catalan universities the Spanish language is somehow discriminated.


 
Strong words. I recall about two years ago talk of a law that would compel all courses to be taught in Catalan. I couldn’t find that this morning. Also I saw from its website that the university of Barcelona is taking a more welcoming position regarding foreign students and that both Spanish and Catalan feature in class. So I take back my comment.




> Come on! Are you telling me that in FORTY years they haven't had time to study a language? Sounds a bit far-fetched, if you ask me… they are UNWILLING to learn.


 
Sure there are some like this. There are others that are unable to study. People who don’t read and write frequently. People who don’t have the capacity to study or learn. People who have little time to study. People who are discouraged by others from studying. You may be an exception, but I wonder how many people return home from a days work and get out the language text books. How many people want to do that? If their family speak Spanish, and their neighbors, and their colleagues, how are they going to practice sufficiently to have the courage to try and speak it? Even if they do understand it to some degree, if they feel very uncomfortable speaking it then they will naturally want to speak in Spanish, Just as I did in English when I first came here and knew the person I was addressing spoke fluent English.


From your posts it is clear that you believe that all residents in Catalunya should learn Catalan. If my offspring are born and raised in Catalunya, they will have as much right as yours to decide the future of the region. Their rights are not affected just because their grandfathers were not Catalan. In fact Spanish immigrants, English immigrants and nationalised African immigrants all share the same right as you in determining the future of this region. Brits are apparently 5% of the Spanish population. (source-BBC story regarding expatriation). There are other threads raging this forum regarding the rights of immigrants to speak whatever language they like, and the rights and wrongs of obliging them to learn the language of the land.

Regards,


----------



## zebedee

xarruc said:


> Hi ernest
> 
> We’re getting hopelessly off the topic under discussion, namely the regional racism in Spain. I apologise for my part in that deviation.




*MOD NOTE:
As xarruc has noted, posts which concentrate on the Catalan/Spanish issue are not addressing the question of this thread.

If you do wish to discuss the thorny topic of Catalan/Spanish, please feel free to do a Search of this forum to find threads already open on the subject and post your comments there not here.

Any further off-topic posts will be removed from this thread.

Thank you.*


----------



## E-D

Hello,

I have found that being from the Basque Country seems to be a problem with some people but why would I take offence? I find those people ignorant and I don't see the point in getting upset about it, I dont even take notice on where they may be from themselves.

Isn't it funny how most of the threads here lurked around Catalunya? I find this region far more nacionalist than the Basque, but somehow, it is us the ones that always come last in the popularity contest because of the political/social effect of a very small minority. I can totally see why, don't think I am blind, we have a terrible reputation and that does sadden me. I have some Catalan friends that don't speak the language and they make jokes about me being from Bilbao, but they will never be nasty about it.

I learnt Euskara at the same time that I learnt Spanish but I attended school / high schools were I had the choice of either all in Spanish or all in Euskara. Universities follow suit, you can choose what language you want  to be taught in (most of them anyway). I would have loved to study my degree in BCN but I wasn't confident enough to take classes in Catalan, so I came to the UK instead. 

I agree that every region (anywhere in the world) should be keen to keep their traditions and their languages/dialects and customs well alive but like my grandad used to say y con perdón y con una sonrisa en la boca que no quiero ofender a nadie: España es una casa de putas. (Refiriéndose al hecho de que no hay orden, ni concierto, y cada uno barre para su casa).

And he was from Córdoba (y que no le confundieran con Sevillano!) so there, en España, hay para todos.

Aún así, no considero que en España seamos racistas entre regiones/territorios/provincias y demás. Tenemos rencillas y piques, de fútbol, de quién debería ser capital, de límites de jardines... pero igual es porque a la mayoría nos gusta la tertulia y la confrontación.

PS: He escrito la mitad en inglés porque el Mac me vuelve loca con las tildes  Y hace mucho que no hablo / escribo en castellano (y aún más en Euskara), y no quiero cometer errores... *blush* ... if I made them in English, I am sorry too!

Un saludo a todos


----------



## xOoeL

E-D said:


> And he was from Córdoba (y que no le confundieran con Sevillano!)


A mí me pasa *lo mismito* .

Voy a escribir en español, porque los foros de cultura son _multilingual_.
Y lo que voy a decir es en realidad un resumen de lo que ya se ha dicho.
No hay racismo regional.
Hay rencillas regionales, provinciales, municipales...
Estas rencillas no suponen un problema casi nunca
Cuando son un problema es mayormente por el idioma, por lo que en realidad dejan de ser regionales.


----------



## DickHavana

xOoeL said:


> Hay rencillas regionales, provinciales, municipales...
> Estas rencillas no suponen un problema casi nunca





Del mismo modo que no se puede hablar de la molécula sin entenderla como la unión de varios átomos, creo que aquí (sin necesidad de entrar en la intimidad de cada hogar) nos podríamos retrotraer a las reuniones de vecinos como eterna fuente de rencillas, conflictos, envidias y hasta odios viscerales.  

Saludos


----------



## Amandla

I don't really know what you mean by "racismo". Maybe, the proper word would be "xenofobia" (xenophobia). It's not the same.

I'm catalan and there's xenophobia from spanish to catalan people. But there's also vice versa. It's not right to generalize about it, because there are nice people from Spain and also from Catalonia that get on with. Of course, there is xenophobia but I think that there's also in Britain, France or wherever. 

What it's true is that catalan people has suffered some boycotts from a right political party. And it's something that doesn't happen vice versa.

(sorry for my mistakes)


----------



## Stigmatas

Hopefully I can add to this conversation. If not add to the conversation at least bring up something I didn't see mention. 
Are there any soccer fans here? I love to educate people about the soccer fans of spain. I've read multiple times but never seen about the many occasions of racism against Ronaldinho and Etoo. People chanting like monkeyes, throwing bananas on the feild. It got or is getting so bad, FIFA is talking about fine the team for their unruly fans. 
Any comments or extra insight?

 jmartins: i've also not seen that many if ANY dark skin spainards. jmartins


----------



## ernest_

As far as I know Ronaldinho has never been a target of racist insults, unlike Eto'o who once even tried to leave a match because of being constantly insulted. He hasn't played for months because he's got his leg broken, so I can't tell you the current state of affairs, but I suspect that this attitude towards him will continue to go on.

It seems that racist insults in football are a pretty selective thing, though. For instance, in different occasions I've heard this 'uh-uh' monkey-like sounds in the Camp Nou aimed at Roberto Carlos. The funny thing is that Roberto Carlos isn't even black, but just a wee bit slightly dark-skinned. While he was being harassed in this way, other players far more black-skinned, such as Seedorf, were completely ignored.


----------



## belano75

timpeac said:


> Hehe, I'm sure you're right. I do remember thinking when I was in Spain that there were blonde spaniards but you never see them on the streets because they are all kidnapped and taken to the TV stations to be news readers and weather-girls/men, since in these jobs it appeared to be mandatory.


 
Me ha sorprendido bastante este mensaje, estás muy equivocado. En España los presentadores de la television son totalmente representativos del aspecto racial de la población general del país. Puedes comprobarlo haciendo un búsqueda en Google Imágenes, por ejemplo. Creo que puedes haberte confundido porque, según parece, en ciertos países de América Latina sí que existe ese problema. Como decimos en España, has oído campanas y no sabes donde está la iglesia.

Con respecto al tema general de este hilo: Racismo consiste en despreciar o tener prejuicios contra las personas de otra raza. En España no puede haber racismo regional porque todos los españoles (exceptuando a los gitanos y los inmigrantes) son de la misma raza: caucasianos mediterráneos. Es imposible saber de que región procede una persona simplemente por su aspecto. Por ejemplo, en las selecciones españolas de fútbol y baloncesto hay jugadores de todas las regiones:

http://laopinion.com/media_archive/mundial2006/20060605/1149513970554.jpg
http://www.marca.com/atenas2004/visita_seleccion/foto_portada.jpg

Y a ver quién es capaz de saber de dónde es cada uno, sólo a partir de la foto.

El único caso de racismo regional puede venir por parte de unos pocos nacionalistas vascos radicales que consideran que existe una raza vasca diferenciada a escala mundial. Según ellos, no es que sean diferentes de los andaluces, es que también lo son de los franceses, de los cántabros y de los de Burgos.

El caso catalán no tiene nada que ver, porque la mitad (no exagero) de los catalanes de hoy descienden de andaluces, extremeños y murcianos.

Lo que hay en España son conflictos y rivalidades entre regiones por motivos políticos y económicos, y lamentablemente todo eso se traduce a menudo en prejuicios regionales. Si un catalán va a Jaén, por ejemplo, puede encontrarse con personas que darán por sentado que es un separatista radical, cuando estadísticamente es poco probable, dado que según las encuestas sólo el 15% de los catalanes son independentistas. En el mismo sentido, si un castellanohablante entra a un comercio en Girona y pide algo en castellano, puede ser que el tendero se moleste un poco al pensar que es el típico inmigrante andaluz que lleva cuarenta años allí y ha pasado olímpicamente de aprender ni una sola palabra de catalán, cuando tal vez sea un señor de Albacete que está de paso y es la primera vez en su vida que pisa Cataluña.

De todas formas, a pesar de que estos conflictos existen y a veces los políticos hablan de manera muy visceral, luego eso tiene poca repercursión en la vida cotidiana. He viajado por todo el país, trato habitualmente con personas de diferentes lugares y siempre me he encontrado un clima de sana convivencia. Para la mayoría de la gente la diversidad es riqueza. Percibo que a los extranjeros les resulta complicado llegar a entender de verdad nuestra situación, hacen paralelismos con América Latina, Italia o Yugoslavia que en la práctica no funcionan, o piensan que debemos de estar al borde de la guerra civil entre regiones, lo cual es totalmente absurdo.


----------



## barkley04

Pienso que hay un racismo entre el norte y el sur en espana. Entre el pais basco y los madrilenos, entre los catalanes y los madrilenos, entre los andalucinos y lmos catalanes..............


----------



## Totopi

barkley04 said:


> Pienso que hay un racismo entre el norte y el sur en espana. Entre el pais basco y los madrilenos, entre los catalanes y los madrilenos, entre los andalucinos y lmos catalanes..............


Pues yo no lo percibo para nada, y menos "racismo" como tal. En cuanto a lo del norte y el sur, esto no es Italia, ni se le parece. Estoy de acuerdo en que existen rivalidades regionales, incluso entre pueblos o ciudades de una misma provincia, incluso rivalidad de barrios dentro de una misma ciudad. Yo creo que nos gusta polemizar y ya está, pero tanto como para convertirlo en un problema, pues no. 
Saludos


----------



## zazap

Janire said:


> especialmente entre catalanes y valencianos hay un "pique" por el idioma, ya que el valenciano, si no me equivoco, no ha sido reconocido oficialmente como idioma, sino que es un dialecto.


El valenciano es reconocido como idioma por el gobierno español y el parlamento europeo (si no me equivoco).


----------



## DickHavana

belano75 said:


> El único caso de racismo regional puede venir por parte de unos pocos nacionalistas vascos radicales que consideran que existe una raza vasca diferenciada a escala mundial. Según ellos, no es que sean diferentes de los andaluces, es que también lo son de los franceses, de los cántabros y de los de Burgos..



Ya estamos con los topicazos de siempre confundiendo otra vez el tráfico con las lechugas. El hecho de que por algunos estudiosos (no necesariamente vascos, de hecho muchos de ellos extranjeros) se haya hablado de las diferencias raciales de la población en torno al Pirineo con respecto a su entorno, el hecho de que haya vascos que estén de acuerdo con eso, o inculuso el hecho de que haya vascos que no se sientan españoles, no significa que sean racistas, del mismo modo que porque uno sea y se sienta negro no va a ser necesariamente racista con los blancos. Hay una diferencia abismal entre sentirse distinto y sentirse superior.

De lo que conozco el paño, no creo que el porcentaje de vascos racistas sea por ejemplo superior al porcentaje de cántabros racistas y desde luego tampoco al de madrileños racistas.



Totopi said:


> Pues yo no lo percibo para nada, y menos "racismo" como tal. En cuanto a lo del norte y el sur, esto no es Italia, ni se le parece. Estoy de acuerdo en que existen rivalidades regionales, incluso entre pueblos o ciudades de una misma provincia, incluso rivalidad de barrios dentro de una misma ciudad. Yo creo que nos gusta polemizar y ya está, pero tanto como para convertirlo en un problema, pues no.
> Saludos



Siempre ha habido un cierto desprecio latente del norte hacia el sur. Tal vez ahora se haya mitigado, pero hace años era patente en determinada gente. Las alusiones despreciativas a la gente que vivía al sur de Madrid, las podías oír en el mismo Madrid.



zazap said:


> El valenciano es reconocido como idioma por el gobierno español y el parlamento europeo (si no me equivoco).



Los políticos podrán decir lo que les dé la gana, pero técnicamente (y eso lo dirá cualquier experto), el valenciano es una variante dialectal de las lenguas catalanas. De hecho, creo recordar que se dijo que la versión valenciana y la catalana de la Constitución eran exactamente iguales, o casi.

Saludos


----------



## DickHavana

heidita said:


> Se ve que has confundido tu perfil. Ahí pone, nativo de España. ¿Acaso Cataluña no es de España?



Sinceramente, para los años que pareces llevar en España pareces estar "poco enterada" .

Su lengua materna puede ser perfectamente el catalán, ¿no crees? Incluso viviendo en España, ya que te parece tan asombroso.


----------



## DickHavana

En serio, me desconcierta tu argumentación.
Como vasco te pondré un ejemplo. Parte de mi familia es euskaldun, vascoparlante. Se expresan entre ellos en euskera, y enseñan a sus hijos básicamente el euskera. Luego los chicos van aprendiendo el castellano, y lo acaban usando tan bien (y tan mal) como cualquier otro residente en España. La lengua materna de esa gente es la vasca, por mucho que residan en España. Otra cosa es que acaben aprendiendo y usando el castellano, pero la lengua materna, la lengua en la que su madre se expresa y es en la que primero aprenden (y en la que muchos de ellos piensan) es el euskera.
1- ¿Acaso dudas que eso pueda suceder en Catalunya?
2- ¿Acaso te molesta? Porque creo que es muy diferente la oficialidad o no de dos lenguas en una comunidad y el hecho de que una gente tenga como materna una u otra.


----------



## DickHavana

Lengua materna es, evidentemente, la lengua que aprendes de los tuyos, la que te enseña tu familia. Creo que eso es algo que admite pocas vueltas,  y que la misma expresión indica por dónde van los tiros. Insisto en la evidente diferencia entre "lengua oficial" y "lengua materna", que creo que a poca gente se le escapa, pero en fin, allá cada cual


----------



## DickHavana

Bueno, de cualquier forma y en cualquiera de esas definiciones, tienes gente en Euskadi que tendría como lengua materna el euskera y casi pondría la mano en el fuego a que tienes gente en Catalunya que tendría como lengua materna el catalán.

En cuanto a lo de que todo admite vueltas y más vueltas, por supuesto que sí. A veces el ser humano es experto en dar vueltas y vueltas hasta tirar donde le interesa. Basta oír a los políticos, sin ir más lejos


----------



## zazap

DickHavana said:


> el valenciano es una variante dialectal de las lenguas catalanas. De hecho, creo recordar que se dijo que la versión valenciana y la catalana de la Constitución eran exactamente iguales, o casi.
> 
> Saludos


Sólo quería corregir la informacion.   Yo suelo decir que el valenciano y el catalán son dos dialectos de la misma lengua.


----------



## DickHavana

zazap said:


> Sólo quería corregir la informacion.   Yo suelo decir que el valenciano y el catalán son dos dialectos de la misma lengua.



En ese tema no entro. Que catalanes y valencianos se pongan de acuerdo o no en denominarla de una manera u otra es un tema que resulta un poco curioso visto desde fuera: a día de hoy, creo recordar que los expertos siguen incluyendo el valenciano entre los dialectos catalanes y que se engloba a esta lengua como cercana a las lenguas de oc. Pero al margen de puntualizaciones y piques, de ahí a pretender que son dos idiomas distintos creo que va un abismo. Aunque no cabe duda de que si los políticos se empeñan (y la gente les sigue) acabará sucediendo.


----------



## zazap

Yo tampoco entro.  Creo que mi post no se ha entendido bien porque se perdió esto por el camino:

"Originally Posted by *Janire* 

 
                 especialmente entre catalanes y valencianos hay un "pique" por el idioma, ya que el valenciano, si no me equivoco, no ha sido reconocido oficialmente como idioma, sino que es un dialecto."

Ese es el dato que yo quería coregir. Y nada más...


----------



## DickHavana

Ahora te pillo, zazap. Con tanta respuesta a otra respuesta, supongo que al final a veces se acaban sacando las cosas de contexto.
Hace unos años trabajé en la costa de Alacant una temporada y percibí un poco cómo andaban las cosas. Recuerdo que mi jefe de entonces decía que los catalanes estaban equivocados y los valencianos en realidad no eran catalanes "del sud" sino que éstos eran valencianos del norte.


----------



## Acho203

Buenas a todos. Yo digo que en España si que somos racistas, mas aun somos racistas incluso con nosotros mismos (es de tontos). Por que si no sacar del baul unos dialectos, idiomas o como querais. Estaban muertos y practicamente solo lo hablaba gente de pequeños pueblos. En vez de enseñar lo que hacen es liar a la gente. Da verguenza cuando salen por la tele y no son capaces de hacerse entender (gente de pueblos pequeños).
Ellos no tienen culpa pero si los gobiernos, que han visto un camino para mamonear y colocar a su gente en puestos, gastar mas dinero y enfrentarse al contrario.
Somos racistas lo tengo muy claro y cada dia lo seremos mas, por culpa de los gobiernos.
Un saludo a todos.


----------



## AkErBeLtZ

Acho203 said:


> Por que si no sacar del baul unos dialectos, idiomas o como querais. Estaban muertos y practicamente solo lo hablaba gente de pequeños pueblos.


*sin palabras*


----------



## ena 63

Hola:
"¿Existe en España el racismo regional?"
Si nos atenemos a la definición:
racismo 
1.	m. Doctrina que exalta la superioridad de la propia raza frente a las demás, basándose en caracteres biológicos:
 2.	Sentimiento de rechazo hacia las razas distintas a la propia.
Yo diría (ya se dijo antes) que no somos racistas, ya que pertenecemos a la misma "raza". Ya veremos cuando tengamos las segundas y terceras generaciones de hijos de inmigrantes (africanos, americanos, asiáticos, mezclados o no con españoles), que serán tan españoles como "nosotros" y ya veremos si los consideramos "iguales" y con los mismos derechos que "nosotros" (principal problema en Francia). Ese será el momento "de verdad".
Yo no soy muy optimista.

Con respecto a las regiones, no creo que se le pueda llamar "racismo".
Ante todo yo creo que ha sido un problema socio-económico. 
Las regiones más pobres han migrado a regiones donde había trabajo, y casi siempre no cualificado, gente con costumbres distintas, con poco nivel cultural y económico y ciertas dificultades de adaptación. Esto ha tenido como consecuencia, un rechazo y hasta una infravaloración de estas poblaciones.
Muchas personas, seguramente encantadoras y no racistas, se han visto "invadidos" por otras culturas en su "propia casa", (seamos honestos, es difícil para todos) y han alimentado un sentimiento "xenófobo", repito, casi siempre matizado por un aspecto económico.

Y luego está la política. No quiero ser demasiado "gabacha", pero visto desde Francia, el problema de las regiones españolas, es un poco "provinciano".
Estamos creando un nuevo "ente", Europa, y me parece ridículo que nos peleemos por ser independientes o tener más que el otro, en un país que gracias a Dios (pura expresión) es demócrata y respetuoso con los derechos fundamentales del individuo.

Yo estoy totalmente de acuerdo en "sacar del baul unos dialectos, idiomas o como querais" (Acho 203)  mantener y fomentar las costumbres y los fueros-derechos históricos, dar una gran autonomía a las regiones que lo deseen, etc..Pero sin crispaciones, ni histerismos sacados de otras tristes épocas.
Vivo en Marsella, una ciudad "colorée" por execelencia, no me considero racista, y creo que el futuro de España será así, cosmopolita, multicultural (palabra harto usada), y espero que los problemas regionales se abrirán al mundo, y que cierto "ombliguismo" desaparecerá frente a los grandes desafíos de una Europa unida.

No, no creo que haya racismo regional en España, hay mucho "paseísmo", poca modernidad y por supuesto rivalidades fútbol-económicas. 

Saludos


----------



## alexacohen

Señor, qué cruz.
Hay gente que es tonta y se cree superior por haber nacido por casualidad en Villatripas de Arriba, y los que han nacido por casualidad en Villatripas de Arriba son, como todo el mundo sabe, muchísimo más inteligentes y más guapos que los que han nacido por casualidad en Villatripas de Abajo.
Y hay gente que es inteligente y sabe perfectamente que no importa el lugar en donde hayas nacido, ni qué idioma estés hablando, sea tu lengua materna o no.
Lo que importa es lo que hay en el corazón de cada individuo. 

Mil perdones a Javier Krahe por el uso del nombre Villatripas. Gracias.


----------



## RIU

DickHavana said:


> Los políticos podrán decir lo que les dé la gana, pero técnicamente (y eso lo dirá cualquier experto), el valenciano es una variante dialectal de las lenguas catalanas. De hecho, creo recordar que se dijo que la versión valenciana y la catalana de la Constitución eran exactamente iguales, o casi.
> 
> Saludos


 
Se trataba de la constitución europea. ¿Alguien perdió el tiempo leyendola antes de ir a votar? Suponiendo, claro está, que se fuera a votar. Era un texto absolutamente indignante. De una estupidez constructiva jamás vista. No hay un solo texto ni en valenciano ni en catalán que se le acerque ni por asomo. En definitiva, un texto a la altura del contenido. Quizá por esto fué escrito así.



ena 63 said:


> Y luego está la política. No quiero ser demasiado "gabacha", pero visto desde Francia, el problema de las regiones españolas, es un poco "provinciano".


 
Si, claro, es proverbial el respeto que París ha tenido para con las otras culturas de Francia. Te entiendo, de veras.



ena 63 said:


> Estamos creando un nuevo "ente", Europa, y me parece ridículo que nos peleemos por ser independientes o tener más que el otro, en un país que gracias a Dios (pura expresión) es demócrata y respetuoso con los derechos fundamentales del individuo.
> 
> ...y espero que los problemas regionales se abrirán al mundo, y que cierto "ombliguismo" desaparecerá frente a los grandes desafíos de una Europa unida.
> 
> Saludos


 
El dia en que se decidan a construir la europa de los ciudadanos, que me avisen. Mientras se dediquen a la europa de los estados... así nos va.

Alexa, tienes toda la razón.


----------



## chaquira16

Hola DickHavana:




DickHavana said:


> Lo de la raza vasca, factores RH, cadenas genéticas, etc, no se lo han inventado los nacionalistas vascos, sino que lo han afirmado unos cuantos científicos (de hecho, la mayoría de ellos extranjeros) .
> 
> La verdad es que la afirmación de que uno de los factores de la "raza" vasca es la coincidencia del RH (si no recuerdo mal se hablaba de O negativo) no me parece muy científica porque conozco a mucha gente en otras partes del territorio español que tienen ese mismo grupo sanguíneo y por más que rastrean en el árbol genealógico no encuentran la conexión vasca, pero vaya usted a saber si con la repoblación del periodo de la reconquista no se produjo la fusión; lo que por otra parte no es sino la característica común a este territorio tantas veces invadido y otras tan invasor...
> 
> Con todo lo demás de acuerdo contigo, será la edad, será el sentido común, será que somos ciudadanos del mismo mundo cultural. ¿Convenceremos o nos vencerán aquellos que se empeñan en la pureza de las razas?
> 
> Saludos afectuosos
> Carmen


----------



## chaquira16

Acho203 said:


> Buenas a todos. Yo digo que en España si que Por qué si no sacar del baúl unos dialectos, idiomas o como queráis. Estaban muertos y prácticamente sólo los  hablaba gente de pequeños pueblos. .


 
Afirmación gratuita, ¡vive Dios!: no se sacan las lenguas ni los dialectos de ningún baúl, ni son más  o menos importantes porque las usen muchos o pocos, las lenguas "son" de los hablantes; nadie tiene derecho a quitárselas ni a imponerles otras. Sólo tienen que coexistir.

Me he permitido sacar del baúl de los recuerdos, yo sí, la memoria de la acentuación y la concordancia  para rogarte que las vigiles. Me gusta ver mi lengua bien usada.

Saludos

Carmen


----------



## DickHavana

chaquira16 said:


> La verdad es que la afirmación de que uno de los factores de la "raza" vasca es la coincidencia del RH (si no recuerdo mal se hablaba de O negativo) no me parece muy científica porque conozco a mucha gente en otras partes del territorio español que tienen ese mismo grupo sanguíneo y por más que rastrean en el árbol genealógico no encuentran la conexión vasca, pero vaya usted a saber si con la repoblación del periodo de la reconquista no se produjo la fusión; lo que por otra parte no es sino la característica común a este territorio tantas veces invadido y otras tan invasor...



Creo que el tema era básicamente un mayor porcentaje de ese tipo sanguíneo en los valles menos mezclados con el exterior del País Vasco. Eso, como la clasificación de un subtipo racial pirenaico o vasco, era frecuente en numerosos libros de geografía humana de los años 60 y 70. El prototipo de vasco no es que  nos sea muy favorecedor , y corrrespondería a algo parecido al ciclista Indurain.

El tema RH se ha distorsionado tanto por algunos sectores que en la zona donde vivo (básicamente no vascófona) me resulta incómodo analizar el tipo de sangre de mi chiquillo porque siempre habrá un tonto que piense: "¿Ves estos vascos? Siempre obsesionados con el RH". Y es que ciertamente la estupidez humana no tiene límites. 

Saludos


----------



## alexacohen

DickHavana said:


> Y es que ciertamente la estupidez humana no tiene límites.
> 
> Saludos


 
Absolutamente de acuerdo contigo, Dick.


----------

