# la città più città d’Italia



## phillyitalianstudent

This expression was written about Milan in 1872 by Verga to Capuana.

What is the best way to translate it?

la città più città d’Italia = _the _ city of Italy (italics for emphasis)?


----------



## london calling

Yes, that's a good idea!

Or: it's _the_ Italian city.


----------



## smart_woman07

Hi,
_the city of Italy_ means _la città d'Italia._
_La città più città _means that Milan is the city more representative, the top of the italian cities.
Makes sense?


----------



## london calling

smart_woman07 said:


> Hi,
> _the city of Italy_ means _la città d'Italia._
> _La città più città _means that Milan is the city more representative, the top of the italian cities.
> Makes sense?


Yes, that's what "_the _city of Italy/_the _Italian city" mean!


----------



## smart_woman07

london calling said:


> Yes, that's what "_the _city of Italy/_the _Italian city" mean!


 
Oh..interesting!
And how do you say _città d'Italia_ then?
Just curious!
Perhaps only _city of Italy, _without the article?
Thank you!


----------



## efano

Mi sembra (ma non sono sicuro che sia così nel caso in questione) che l'espressione possa significare piuttosto qualcosa tipo: Milano è la città in Italia che più si avvicina al concetto di città (la città per eccellenza, non in quanto la migliore d'Italia, ma in quanto più affine ad un concetto di città, magari anche internazionale).
Non so se possa essere un'interpretazione corretta.

Propongo alcune traduzioni azzardate. Ce n'è qualcuna che potrebbe suonare bene in inglese?
- The most Italian city
- The "citiest" of Italian cities (using city as an adjective) 
- The most city-like Italian city


----------



## london calling

Quello che intendevamo io e philly con il corsivo (o con le maiuscole, fa lo stesso) è che così si enfatizza l'articolo (esattamente come in italiano, es: non è la più bella, è *LA* più bella).

City of Italy, Italian city....


----------



## london calling

efano said:


> Mi sembra (ma non sono sicuro che sia così nel caso in questione) che l'espressione possa significare piuttosto qualcosa tipo: Milano è la città in Italia che più si avvicina al concetto di città (la città per eccellenza, non in quanto la migliore d'Italia, ma in quanto più affine ad un concetto di città, magari anche internazionale).
> Non so se possa essere un'interpretazione corretta.
> 
> Propongo alcune traduzioni azzardate. Ce n'è qualcuna che potrebbe suonare bene in inglese?
> - The most Italian city Vuol dire "la città più italiana"
> - The "citiest" of Italian cities (using city as an adjective)
> - The most city-like Italian city This conveys the idea, but it isn't very elegant.


Secondo me è giusta la tua interpretazione, ma è difficile tradurla in inglese....

_Milan is the city of cities in Italy_, maybe.


----------



## giovannino

What about _the quintessential Italian city _?


----------



## efano

london calling said:


> _Milan is the city of cities in Italy_, maybe.



Ok, this sounds definitely better!


----------



## You little ripper!

> The most city-like Italian city This conveys the  idea, but it isn't very elegant.


_The most city-like of all the cities in Italy_ might sound a little better.


----------



## london calling

giovannino said:


> What about _the quintessential Italian city _?


Ah. but if Efano's interpretation is right, this doesn't convey the idea in English, i.e. it's not the quintessential _Italian_ city, it's the quintessential city in italy (if you see what I mean, but it sounds a bit odd...!).

@ Charles: yes, you're right, that does sound better!


----------



## Caroline35

RE: la città più città d'Italia

I would translateas : la città per antonomasia

We have to take into account the period in which this phrase was coined by Giovanni Verga, one of the best  Sicilian authors of his time. Italy had reached its unity with Rom as capital after 1870. Milan was one of the modernest city of that time, while some cities in South Italy, and around the rest of the peninsula were like big villages in paragone a Milano.


----------



## london calling

Caroline35 said:


> RE: la città più città d'Italia
> 
> I would translateas : la città per antonomasia Ma serve la traduzione in inglese......
> 
> .


----------



## giovannino

london calling said:


> Ah. but if Efano's interpretation is right, this doesn't convey the idea in English, i.e. it's not the quintessential _Italian_ city, it's the quintessential city in italy


 
Good point!
And I agree with Efano's interpretation, by the way.


----------



## Einstein

I was thinking "city of cities" too, but now I've seen this explanation:


> Milan was one of the most modern cities of that time, while some cities in South Italy, and around the rest of the peninsula were like big villages in comparison with Milan.


I don't think "city of cities" really gives the same idea. Maybe "the most city-like city in Italy"?


----------



## Teerex51

I'll give it a shot, too: 

_The ultimate city in Italy_


----------



## Leo57

Milan, the city to end all cities.

Leo

After all your discussion I think I still prefer it as:

Milan, _the_ Italian city.


----------



## Caroline35

RE:la città più città d'Italia

The city par excellence


----------



## Caroline35

RE: la città più città d'Italia

Sono pienamente d'accordo con Stefano. La città più città d'Italia nel senso che Milano è la più vicina al concetto di ncittà delle altre


----------



## Caroline35

Re: la cittàpiù citta d'Italia

Giovannino se pensi a quando Giovanni Verga disse a Capuana la frase in questione, vedi che la mia deduzione e quella di Stefano sono le più corrette. Non si può tradurre una frase fuori dal contesto in cui è stata detta.
One must take into account all the facts before understanding a particular phrase. So one cannot translate word by word like a parrot. First one has to collect and analyze all the facts : The hystorical time, what's the true meaning  the person wanted to convey


----------



## london calling

Leo57 said:


> Milan, the city to end all cities. Sounds good! And I think it conveys the idea well. And I suppose we could leave in Italy out, couldn't we?
> 
> Milan, _the_ Italian city. In the end, I think I was wrong when I said that, having read efano's interpretation.


----------



## Akire72

Charles Costante said:


> _The most city-like of all the cities in Italy_ might sound a little better.


 
I vote for Charles' translation! 
Credo che sia quella che si avvicina di più all'originale lasciando il gioco di parole tra le due city!

ESIT: Scusate Leo e LC ma 





> Milan, the city to end all cities


 che vuol dire?


----------



## giovannino

Caroline35 said:


> Giovannino se pensi a quando Giovanni Verga disse a Capuana la frase in questione, vedi che la mia deduzione e quella di Stefano sono le più corrette.


 
Forse ti è sfuggito quello che ho scritto nel post #15  
Anch'io sono d'accordo con l'interpretazione di Efano:



> And I agree with Efano's interpretation, by the way.


----------



## london calling

_The city to end all cities_ vuol dire che come città è il massimo, è insuperabile.

It's quite a common construction, e.g:

_It was the party to end all parties, i.e. _it was the best party I have ever been to and I'm sure I will never go to a party as good as that again. OK?


----------



## Akire72

Thanks LC! I didn't know this phrase! 

Yet to me Charles' translation conveys what the author wanted to say better. But this is just my opinion.


----------



## Einstein

Yes, I vote for "the most city-like" in some form, maybe as Charles says, "of all Italian cities".
I think "par excellence", "quintessential" and "to end all cities" are overstatements; Verga doesn't seem to be saying that Milan is a fantastic place, only that it's nearest to the European concept of what a city is.
"Italy's only true city" would give the idea, but it's a bit far from the original.


----------



## Patsy Boffa

Milan, the most urban of all Italian cities?
ultra-urban?


----------



## You little ripper!

Akire72 said:


> I vote for Charles' translation!


Thanks Akire, but it was really efano's suggestion. I just changed the last bit to make it sound a little better.


----------



## Bookmom

Merriam-Webster dates the word citified to Noah Webster's _American Dictionary of the English Language_ (two quarto volumes containing 70,000 entries) published in 1828 so it would certainly have been in use at the time of Verga's quote.

Milan is the most citified of Italian cities.


----------



## efano

Charles Costante said:


> Thanks Akire, but it was really efano's suggestion. I just changed the last bit to make it sound a little better.


Thanks for your acknowledgement. I think this is one of the best qualities of this forum: the "better" translation is a common work-in-progress, not a single person's goal.


----------



## Caroline35

RE: la città più città d'Italia

Then it's been settled. Everyone agrees with Stefano's interpretation. Time to move on to some other topics


----------

