# Urdu-Hindi: darpan



## Qureshpor

In another thread (anjuman), greatbear wrote the following:

"If Hindi film names have started defining what people speak, then why the reluctance of people here to accept Sanskrit-derived words, since films with such titles are also as or much more successful as those two Anjumans? Examples include Govind Nihalani's "Sanshodhan", the 1970 film "Darpan" and the famous TV series of the eighties, again "Darpan"".

The word is actually "darpaNR" as shown by entry below from Platts. According to one Urdu dictionary, its first use is found in Kabir Daas's works around 1440.

S درپن दर्पण_darpaṇ, s.m. A looking-glass, a mirror._

In Urdu however, it is always "darpan". One has a soft spot for certain words and for me "darpan" is one such word. There is a sad song by aaN-jahaanii Mukesh with the opening words "darpan ko dekhaa, tuu ne jab jab kiyaa siNghaar" (by Majrooh Sultanpuri, a noted Urdu poet). Others that come to mind immediately are "ratan", "sakhii", "devii", "saadhnaa", "kathaa", "dhuul", "mandir", "panghaT", "maikaa" and hundreds more!

I am starting this "laRii" to ask forum members to come up with instances of the use of "darpan" in Urdu and Hindi speech and literature. Is it used just for "mirror" or does it have other wider uses?

Here is my opening entry..

raah-i-taHqiiq meN har gaam pih uljhan dekhuuN
vahii Haalaat-o-xayaalaat meN anban dekhuuN
ban ke rah jaataa huuN tasviir pareshaanii kii
Ghaur se jab bhii dunyaa kaa *darpan* dekhuuN
kahiiN zaHmat kii sulagtii hu'ii pat-jhaR kaa samaaN
kahiiN raHmat ke baraste hu'e saavan dekhuuN

Naaz Khayaalvii


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## Alfaaz

> I am starting this "laRii" to ask forum members to come up with instances of the use of "darpan" in Urdu and Hindi speech and literature.



A famous Pakistani Urdu Film actor's screenname was Darpan (his brother's was Santosh Kumar)  



Mehdi Hassan's song "Lagi re lagi lagan yehi dil mein, deep jalen sur ke sagar mein jab mein geet sunao". Film: Jalwa 1966
The song is an example of many showing influence of Hindi on Urdu...(other influences being Persian, Arabic, etc.)

 

Saleem Raza's song "Husn ko chaand jawani ko kanwal kehte hain" was also picturized on Darpan (along with Neelo)
It has more of an Urdu flavor...Film: Payal Ki Jhankar - 1966


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## Qureshpor

Thank you Alfaaz SaaHib. I had thought of "Darpan", the Pakistani actor but I am glad you've brought both "Darpan" and "santosh" into the discussion. I like the word "santosh" too.


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## marrish

QURESHPOR said:


> Thank you Alfaaz SaaHib. I had thought of "Darpan", the Pakistani actor but I am glad you've brought both "Darpan" into the discussion. I like the word "santosh" too.



As you have noticed in the OP, darpaNR's last consonant is a retroflex one, so is the last one of santoSH.


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> As you have noticed in the OP, darpaNR's last consonant is a retroflex one, so is the last one of santoSH.



marrish SaaHib, you are looking too deeply into the "biryaanii" and are therefore preoccupied with the ingredients! Let's talk about the end product. Please cite an example or two of this word's usage.


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## Alfaaz

Laga diwaar peh darpan: A'adil Mansuri

dil kuuN gar martabaa ho darpan kaa
muft hai dekhnaa siriijan kaa 
Wali Dakhani


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## marrish

I think it's better to know what you put in your mouth. Back to relishing, I think this word is quite widely used. 
As per your request to cite a couple of examples, I must admit I don't have access to Hindi literature, so your demands may not be fulfilled. Still, I had come across many instances where it's used idiomatically, like:

_dil ke darpaNR meN
itihaas ke darpaNR meN_

and here, with another word you may choose to like (I like it)

आज की कहानियों में समाज का प्रतिबिम्ब - _aaj kii kahaaniyoN meN samaaj kaa *pratibimb *_(reflection)

and here
यादों के दर्पण से झांके रंगे-बिरंगे बिंब - _yaadoN ke darpaNR se jhaaNke raNge-biraNge bimb_


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> I think it's better to know what you put in your mouth. Back to relishing, I think this word is quite widely used.
> As per your request to cite a couple of examples, I must admit I don't have access to Hindi literature, so your demands may not be fulfilled. Still, I had come across many instances where it's used idiomatically, like:
> 
> _dil ke darpaNR meN
> itihaas ke darpaNR meN_
> 
> and here, with another word you may choose to like (I like it)
> 
> आज की कहानियों में समाज का प्रतिबिम्ब - _aaj kii kahaaniyoN meN samaaj kaa *pratibimb *_(reflection)
> 
> and here
> यादों के दर्पण से झांके रंगे-बिरंगे बिंब - _yaadoN ke darpaNR se jhaaNke raNge-biraNge bimb_




Thank you, marrish SaaHib for the examples. Have Hindi poets said anything about "darpan"?

Here is what an Urdu poet, Saghar Nizami (SaaGhar Nizaamii) says about it in his nazm "panghaT".

sar par ik piital kii gaagar, zahrah ko sharmaa'e
shauq-i-paa-bosii meN jis kaa paanii chhalkaa jaa'e
prem kaa saagar buuNdeN ban kar jhuumaa umDaa aa'e
sar se barse aur siine ke *darpan *ko chamkaa'e
us *darpan* ko jis se javaanii jhaaNke aur sharmaa'e 
aa'ii vuh panghaT kii devii vuh panghaT kii devii


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## marrish

QURESHPOR said:


> Thank you, marrish SaaHib for the examples. Have Hindi poets said anything about "darpan"?



I am attempting to meet your requirement and to give a piece which came from the pen of Hindi poets,
and I'm happy to cite one, of exquisite beauty. It is a song from the film Kaajal:

*toraa man darpan kahlaa'e
bhale bure saare karmoN ko
dekhe aur dikhaa'e
*
The Hindi poet is here none other than SaaHir Ludhiaanvii!


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> I am attempting to meet your requirement and to give a piece which came from the pen of Hindi poets,
> and I'm happy to cite one, of exquisite beauty. It is a song from the film Kaajal:
> 
> *toraa man darpan kahlaa'e
> bhale bure saare karmoN ko
> dekhe aur dikhaa'e
> *
> The Hindi poet is here none other than SaaHir Ludhiaanvii!



marrish SaaHib, this was no challenge of any sort! Neither was there any compulsion to meet any "requirements". I was merely asking/requesting if you could post something penned by a Hindi poet using darpan. I am sorry to say that Sahir Ludhianvii has never been a Hindi poet, to the best of my knowledge. On the contrary, he was an Urdu poet through and through and this is what he had to say on the occasion of Jashn-i-Ghalib, in the presence of Mr. Nehru himself.

jis 3ahd-i-siyaasat ne yih zindah zabaaN kuchlii
us 3ahd-i-siyaasat ko marHuum kaa Gham kyuN ho
Ghalib jise kahte haiN Urdu hii kaa shaa3ir thaa
Urdu pih sitam Dhaa kar Ghalib pih karam kyuN ho


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## Qureshpor

A few examples of "darpan" by Urdu writers have already been provided. Here is another example, from a nazm by Latiif Siddiiqii, hailing from Varanasi (Banaras). The poem was written in honour of two MLAs, 'Aliim Badii' Aa'zamii and Vasiim Ahmed who demanded to take their oath of office in Urdu. I will just quote..

yih mirii pyaarii zabaaN hai yih mirii pyaarii zabaaN
sab se yih nyaarii zabaaN hai sab se nyaarii zabaaN
kuuk koyal kii hai jis meN yih papiihe kii zabaaN
bulbul-i-HindustaaN yih desh kii apnii zabaaN
is ke lafzoN se hai pairahan muzayyan desh kaa
jo hai Urdu kaa muxaalif vuh hai dushman desh kaa
...

yih hai yak-jihatii kaa parcham yih hai darpan desh kaa
jo hai Urdu kaa muxaalif vuh hai dushman desh kaa

Now, I asked the question if "darpan" is used in any other sense than a mirror. Can you shed some light on this at all and if possible quote something from Hindi literature incorporating the word "darpan"?


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## greatbear

QURESHPOR said:


> Now, I asked the question if "darpan" is used in any other sense than a mirror. Can you shed some light on this at all and if possible quote something from Hindi literature incorporating the word "darpan"?



I had always thought you had only asked for instances from Urdu and Hindi literature for "darpan", not about the other meanings. So to answer your first question now, "darpan" means only mirror, and by extension, conscience.
For instances in literature, since I don't read Hindi literature, I will leave it to other Hindi readers on this forum.


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## marrish

Is it possible to deny that the poem I quoted is a Hindi poem?


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> Is it possible to deny that the poem I quoted is a Hindi poem?




marrish SaaHib. I posed a question to you after you posted a few prose lines containing "darpan". "Have Hindi poets said anything about "darpan"? You then posted a couple of lines by Sahir Ludhianvi, presenting him as a Hindi poet. I in turn stated that Sahir had never been a Hindi writer and he in fact was an Urdu poet and quoted a small piece by him with regard to Urdu language. So, my focus was on Sahir and not whether what you had presented was Hindi or not.

...

Let us once again return to "darpan".


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## marrish

QURESHPOR said:


> marrish SaaHib. I posed a question to you after you posted a few prose lines containing "darpan". "Have Hindi poets said anything about "darpan"? You then posted a couple of lines by Sahir Ludhianvi, presenting him as a Hindi poet. I in turn stated that Sahir had never been a Hindi writer and he in fact was an Urdu poet and quoted a small piece by him with regard to Urdu language. So, my focus was on Sahir and not whether what you had presented was Hindi or not.


Please accept my apologies for late responding. In the post where I quoted Sahir, the use of words ''attempting to meet your requirements'' was very conscious in order to convey the difficulty I had in finding any works of merit by poets who wrote mainly in Hindi. While searching for Hindi poetry, I suddenly recalled the song by Sahir.

In my opinion he was the one who meets the quality requirements rather than strict language selection. I'm sure you have no doubt as to my awareness of Sahir being a poet of the Urdu language. Originally I had put the word Hindi in quotation marks so that there was no ambiguity left concerning the irony of my statement, but I changed my mind and realized that calling Sahir Ludhianvi instantly a Hindi poet, is correct for two reasons being the fact that it is the language of a literary work which defines the poet to be of a particular language denomination and not the other way round and secondly Hindi can be read by Urdu readers as pertaining rather to India than to a language. 

Ultimately I made up my mind to cite his Hindi poem because I was focussed on the word _'darpaNR'_ and the language of the poetry being Hindi, not on labelling a poet. By no means was my intention to stir up a discussion like this, however once the Pandora's box went open I think your previous statement saying that Sahir Ludhianvi has never been a Hindi poet presents a certain difficulty to agree to it, since even in the light of the poem I referred to it's safe to state the fact that Sahir, being a poet of the Urdu language, occasionally used to be a Hindi poet as well. God knows maybe he was a Punjabi poet, too.

...



> People who have direct links with the regions where these languages are spoken will confirm to you that Sahir's bhajan is from one of these languages. You know as well as I do that in Urdu and Hindi the word is "teraa" and not "toraa".
> 
> http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1218081
> 
> Let us once again return to "darpan".



Of course it's not _''toraa'' _if we refer to Standard Modern Urdu and to Standard Modern Hindi. In the said poem, there are more peculiarities: 

''tohe'' for ''tujhe''
''mohe'' for ''mujhe''

*'sukh kii kaliyaaN dukh ke kaaNTe, man sab kaa aadhaar
man se koii baat chhupe na, man ke nain hazaar'* - Hindi!

For me, it is still a Hindi poem. 

I am eagerly waiting for an opinion from Hindi or other regional languages of the area.


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## marrish

Another poem in Hindi where _darpaNR_ occures:
_*
TuuT gayaa wah darpaNR nirmam
us meN haNs dii merii chhaayaa
mujhmeN ro dii mamtaa maayaa
ashru-haas ne vishv sajaayaa
*_
(TuuT gayaa wah darpaNR by Mahadevi Verma)


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## Faylasoof

marrish said:


> Is it possible to deny that the poem I quoted is a Hindi poem?


 marrish SaaHib, the poem you mention above in post#9 is most recognisable to me as Purbi (_puurbii_), a dialect of Western Standard Bhojpuri. I've heard a lot of these kinds of songs given that my connection is not just to eastern UP (where you hear these songs anyway) but also Bihar.

I've heard people refer to songs like these as early Hindi or early Urdu, neither of which would be correct because it is Bhojpuri. In the Netherlands there is a sizable community of Bhojpuri speakers and here too I hear these songs.


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## Faylasoof

Here are some lines from a longish Urdu poem by the Indo-Pakistani poet  ابنِ انشاء ibn-e-Inshaa' using _darpan_ from his work _dil-e-waHsh__ii:_

اس وقت مگر سوچوں میں مگن

وہ سانولی صورت کی ناگن

یہ گیت اسی کا *درپن* ہے

یہ گیت ہمارا جیون ہے

ابنِ انشاء

_is waqt magar sochuuN meiN magan_
_woh saaNolii Suurat kii naagan_
_yeh giit usii kaa darpan_
_yeh giit hamaaraa jiivan_

_ibn-e-inshaa'_


Although *درپن* _darpan _is something we don't use in everyday speech, yet its use is very evident in Urdu literature as is that of another Sanskrit word synonymous to it, viz. آرسی _aarsii_. This too has been used by our poets.


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## marrish

Faylasoof said:


> marrish SaaHib, the poem you mention above in post#9 is most recognisable to me as Purbi (_puurbii_), a dialect of Western Standard Bhojpuri. I've heard a lot of these kinds of songs given that my connection is not just to eastern UP (where you hear these songs anyway) but also Bihar.
> 
> I've heard people refer to songs like these as early Hindi or early Urdu, neither of which would be correct because it is Bhojpuri. In the Netherlands there is a sizable community of Bhojpuri speakers and here too I hear these songs.



Very interesting, indeed. It seemed Hindi definitely to my lay ears and I thought that adding a couple of dialectical words to a Hindi poem does not result in calling its language non-Hindi.


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## Faylasoof

marrish said:


> Very interesting, indeed. It seemed Hindi definitely to my lay ears and I thought that adding a couple of dialectical words to a Hindi poem does not result in calling its language non-Hindi.


 Yes, it all depends how we define a language or a group of distinct languages and give, say, the latter a generic name. I don't think this is easily answered as it all depends on your initial premise. 

Anyway, I found this just to show where Purbi (_puurbii_) is spoken and how some are classifying it. They use _darpan_ too!


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof SaaHib has identified the language of that piece as "Purbi". Clearly, there are occasions where Urdu (and other) poets have ventured into other local languages to give their poetry a religious touch (bhajan*) or a rural/rustic flavour. (e.g. Allah tero naam,  Sahir, film "Ham donoN" and nain laR ga'ii haiN, Shakeel Badayuni, Ganga Jamna)

The so called "Hindi belt" has "whipped" many a language into its fold! Imagine millions of Purbi/Bojhpuri/Braj Bhasha and other language speakers as well as Urdu speakers being told that they are part of the Hindi belt! I don't give too much credence to the census returns. Lot of factors come into play when ordinary folk have their thumb prints on official paperwork.

As you are fully aware, in Hindi "darpan" is "darpaNR". Asha Bhonsle quite clearly sings it as "darpan". By this exception alone, the song is not Hindi. Moreover, I don't believe Hindi has "ko'e" (rhyming with ho'e). As far as I know it is "ko'ii". I also believe she sings "praanii" and not "praaNRii" (creature). If this is Hindi, why did Sahir replace the retroflex with the dental n?

I don't wish to prolong this discussion any longer and would like to concentrate on "darpan". All this is likely to slide into  off-topic territory.

* If you are bhajan lover (as I am), try listening to bhajans written by Madhukar Rajasthani (Music, Khayyam) in the truly immortal voice of Rafi. (Youtube: tere bharose he Nandlala/main gwalo rakhvaalo maiyya/paun padun tore Shyam)


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> Faylasoof SaaHib has identified the language of that piece as "Purbi". Clearly, there are occasions where Urdu (and other) poets have ventured into other local languages to give their poetry a religious touch (bhajan*) or a rural/rustic flavour. (e.g. Allah tero naam,  Sahir, fillm "Ham donoN" and nain laR ga'ii haiN, Shakeel Badayuni, Ganga Jamna)
> 
> ....
> I don't wish to prolong this discussion any longer and would like to concentrate on "darpan". All this is going to slide into the off-topic territory.
> 
> * If you are bhajan lover (as I am), try listening to bhajans written by Madhukar Rajasthani (Music, Khayyaam) in the truly immortal voice of Rafi. (Youtube: tere bharose he Nandlala/main gwalo rakhvaalo maiyya/paun padun tore Shyam)


 QP SaaHIb I agree we really should concentrate on the use of _darpan_, and true many of our Urdu poets (including, as I mentioned earlier, Mir Anis) would easily go into local dialects for many reasons, not least because they were fond of certain expressions. Just take Ibn-e-Inshaa (post#21). His poetry is Urdu-Hindi. This is what _we_ call _ganga-jamnii tahziib_ or _ganga-jam*u*nii tahziib_!!

BTW, apart from _darpan_ there is also _man darpan (= a jewelled mirror)_! Now this is proving a really tough one in terms of examples I can think of from our literature at the moment.


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## BP.

Faylasoof said:


> ... most recognisable to me as Purbi (_puurbii_), a dialect of Western Standard Bhojpuri....


Faylasoof, woudn't it be _puur*a*bii_, from _puurab_? A case of elision because of 'speedy' speech?


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> Very interesting, indeed. It seemed Hindi definitely to my lay ears and I thought that adding a couple of dialectical words to a Hindi poem does not result in calling its language non-Hindi.



"*toraa man darpan kahlaa'e
bhale bure saare karmoN ko
dekhe aur dikhaa'e"
*
If the addition of "dialectical" words continues to preserve the "Hindi" character of the poem, then by what logic could it not be also called Urdu?

marrish SaaHib, in this forum and elsewhere I have read Urdu speakers calling words such as "sakhii, prem, gun, jatan, man, priit etc etc as Hindi. But do they know that both Urdu and Hindi have inherited these "bread and butter" words from khaRii-bolii. As you know a number of Urdu poets (e.g. Akhtar Sherani and Ibn-e-Insha) have much higher occurrence of these types of words in their poetry. Again, they are meant to impart a "giit" flavour.


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## marrish

QURESHPOR said:


> As you are fully aware, in Hindi "darpan" is "darpaNR". Asha Bhonsle quite clearly sings it as "darpan". By this exception alone, the song is not Hindi. Moreover, I don't believe Hindi has "ko'e" (rhyming with ho'e). As far as I know it is "ko'ii". I also believe she sings "praanii" and not "praaNRii" (creature). If this is Hindi, why did Sahir replace the retroflex with the dental n?


Your remark is brilliant and it struck me as well. I believe it fits the pattern of a dialect whose features Saahir wanted to reflect, which according to Faylasoof SaaHib is Purbi. Personally I would qualify this poem as a Hindi one, however not a Modern Standard Hindi one. 



> I don't wish to prolong this discussion any longer and would like to concentrate on "darpan". All this is likely to slide into  off-topic territory.
> 
> * If you are bhajan lover (as I am), try listening to bhajans written by Madhukar Rajasthani (Music, Khayyam) in the truly immortal voice of Rafi. (Youtube: tere bharose he Nandlala/main gwalo rakhvaalo maiyya/paun padun tore Shyam)


Your guess is right! I share your taste very much! Many thanks for the reference.


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## marrish

QURESHPOR said:


> "*toraa man darpan kahlaa'e
> bhale bure saare karmoN ko
> dekhe aur dikhaa'e"
> *
> If the addition of "dialectical" words continues to preserve the "Hindi" character of the poem, then by what logic could it not be also called Urdu?
> 
> marrish SaaHib, in this forum and elsewhere I have read Urdu speakers calling words such as "sakhii, prem, gun, jatan, man, priit etc etc as Hindi. But do they know that both Urdu and Hindi have inherited these "bread and butter" words from khaRii-bolii. As you know a number of Urdu poets (e.g. Akhtar Sherani and Ibn-e-Insha) have much higher occurrence of these types of words in their poetry. Again, they are meant to impart a "giit" flavour.


Great example of Urdu, I'd say. Others may say it's Hindi. 
I tried to convey that it is not use of dialectical words which preserves its Hindi character but the overall use of vocabulary does. The use of dialectical forms doesn't rather prevent it being Hindi.
There were two words in particular which made me think of the language of this poem as Hindi, being aadhaar and chhaayaa. I can't remember I saw or heard them used in Urdu.


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> Great example of Urdu, I'd say. Others may say it's Hindi.
> I tried to convey that it is not use of dialectical words which preserves its Hindi character but the overall use of vocabulary does. The use of dialectical forms doesn't rather prevent it being Hindi.
> There were two words in particular which made me think of the language of this poem as Hindi, being aadhaar and chhaayaa. I can't remember I saw or heard them used in Urdu.



Both these words are listed in the Urdu dictionary, "Farhang-i-Asifiyyah". aage bataa'iye!!

kyaa yih sitam-zariifii nahiiN kih "Hindi" filmoN meN Urdu alfaaz kii bharmaar hai aur vuh phir bhii Hindi haiN aur idhar yih qissah chal rahaa hai kih in do lafzoN se yih ash3aar Hindi ke ban jaate haiN? xair chhoRiye is baat ko!

tire dayaa-dharam nahiiN man meN
mukhaR kyaa dekhe *darpan* meN

Kabir


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## marrish

QURESHPOR said:


> Both these words are listed in the Urdu dictionary, "Farhang-i-Asifiyyah". aage bataa'iye!!
> 
> kyaa yih sitam-zariifii nahiiN kih "Hindi" filmoN meN Urdu alfaaz kii bharmaar hai aur vuh phir bhii Hindi haiN aur idhar yih qissah chal rahaa hai kih in do lafzoN se yih ash3aar Hindi ke ban jaate haiN? xair chhoRiye is baat ko!
> 
> tire dayaa-dharam nahiiN man meN
> mukhaR kyaa dekhe *darpan* meN
> 
> Kabir


OK, point taken Qureshpor SaaHib, I am full of admiration how far you were so kind to go to make me realize that this poem is not Hindi.

I'm all happy to know that these two words are a part of Urdu vocabulary, because personally I don't use them in Urdu.

Baaqii baat yahii hai keh zihnii tabi3at hai yaa siyaasii soch hai, mujhe ko'ii farq nahiN paRtaa ko'ii Urduu filmoN ko yaa gaanoN ko Hindii kahe, yeh sirf Urduu kii maqbuuliyat kaa sabuut hai. 

lagtaa hai maiN bhii is lisaanii taGhayyir kaa shikaar huwaa huuN aur sochaa nahiiN thaa keh yeh do alfaaz Urdu ke bhi alfaaz haiN


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> There were two words in particular which made me think of the language of this poem as Hindi, being aadhaar and chhaayaa. I can't remember I saw or heard them used in Urdu.



marrish SaaHib, the fault possibly lies in us, the Urdu speaking/knowing people. I don't suppose many of us indulge much in the activity of reading Urdu literature these days. I know that at one stage I did try and read quite a bit but I hardly read any these days. This problem is not just in Urdu. The same could be said of English to some extent.

Anyway, you will of course know about Syed nasir Raza Kazmi (1925-1972), a renowned Urdu Ghazal and nazm writer. In 1981, he wrote a play, in verse, entitled "sur kii *chhaayaa*". So, this word is not just in a dictionary. It is not an easy 
process searching for a word in a writer's creative work. One can not of course read through whole poems or novels in Hindi* just to see if the author wrote "anjuman" or "shabnam" or any other word for that matter. In the works of a poet of older Urdu vintage (Nazir Akbarabadi 1735-1830) I have no doubt that these kinds of words (chhaayaa/aadhaar) would be found in abundance 

(*Here is a thread with some history of the modern Hindi language. Please take a look if you are interested

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1564047&page=2&highlight=fort+william+college )


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## flyinfishjoe

QURESHPOR said:


> As you are fully aware, in Hindi "darpan" is "darpaNR". Asha Bhonsle quite clearly sings it as "darpan". By this exception alone, the song is not Hindi. Moreover, I don't believe Hindi has "ko'e" (rhyming with ho'e). As far as I know it is "ko'ii". I also believe she sings "praanii" and not "praaNRii" (creature). If this is Hindi, why did Sahir replace the retroflex with the dental n?


I don't think you can say that by this exception alone, the song isn't Hindi. Most Hindi speakers wouldn't pronounce the retroflex n in this position. In this case it's more of a written convention in order to be truer to the original Sanskrit spelling. Does pronouncing _mu'aaf_ as _maaf_ make the latter solely Hindi?


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## Qureshpor

flyinfishjoe said:


> Wasn't "Allah Tero Naam" based off of _raghupati raaghava raajaaraam, patit paavana siitaaraam. siitaaraam siitaaraam, bhaj pyaare tuu siitaaraam. iishvar allaah tero naam, sabko sanmati de bhagvaan._?
> 
> In my experience, many of the members of languages or dialects like Maithili, Bhojpuri, Purbi, etc. actually self-identify as native Hindi speakers. I don't think there's anything wrong with this. I'd say it's all a matter of identity and perception. After all, the words "language" and "dialect" don't even have concrete definitions/
> 
> The term "Hindi belt" was, I believe, coined by the popular media and isn't necessarily always used in the linguistic sense. I think it's just another way to refer to U.P., Bihar, Madhya Pradesh, Rajasthan, etc. Often it's used in sentences like, "The Hindi belt is lagging behind southern states in literacy and economic development." Now another term, BIMARU (Bihar, M.P., Rajasthan, U.P.), has become popular among the media to describe this region.
> 
> I don't think you can say that by this exception alone, the song isn't Hindi. Most Hindi speakers wouldn't pronounce the retroflex n in this position. In this case it's more of a written convention in order to be truer to the original Sanskrit spelling. Does pronouncing _mu'aaf_ as _maaf_ make the latter solely Hindi?



I don't know if Sahir's "Allah tero naam" is based on anyone else's work. What I do know is that within Urdu literature, there is a concept called "tazmiin" where the poet uses a line borrowed from another poet and fits it into his creation. Shakeel Badayuni, for example, used Iqbal's "nah tuu zamiiN ke liye hai nah aasmaaN ke liye" but the rest of his Ghazal is his own. Similarly a line from the famous poet "Momin"' is used by Hasrat Jaipuri (tum mere paas hote ho..) in the song "ai mere shaah-i-xuubaaN". 

Regarding Hindi belt, if it was possibly just a way to refer to an area and was not necessarily linked to a language, then calling it by another language name would not matter that much I suppose? The Maithili/Bhojpuri/Purbi/Rajasthani/Urdu (!!!) belt? Wikipedia defines it as below.

"The *Hindi Belt or Hindi Heartland is a loosely defined linguistic region in North and Central India where Hindi languages are widely spoken, either as primary or secondary languages.[1] [2][3] It is sometimes also used to refer to states whose official language is Standard Hindi."*

We agree that the piece quoted by marrish SaaHib is Purbi and not the Standard Hindi. In Urdu, as I have said already, it is always "darpan". I was suggesting that "darpan" could be the shape of the word in Braj Bhasha, Bhojpuri or Purbi. "mu3aaf" is indeed the correct Urdu form and "maaf" could be Urdu, Punjabi, Hindi or another language.


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## Faylasoof

BelligerentPacifist said:


> Faylasoof, woudn't it be _puur_*a*_bii_, from _puurab_? A case of elision because of 'speedy' speech?


 BP, you are correct that it should be _puurabii _(from _puurab_) but the name in English is Purbi i.e. _puurbii_ with out the ‘a’. I’ve heard many Bhojpuri speakers also pronounce it like this and it became 'official' a long while ago, as is evidenced in several printed references and places on the net, including the link I gave above. So Purbi (for _puurabii_)it shall be.... and darpan exists in Purbi too!


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## Faylasoof

If one reads the whole poem of the Urdu poet ابنِ انشاء ibn-e-Inshaa', then it’ll be noticed that there are lines which some would identify just with Hindi, but to me they are equally Urdu. He uses ‘Hindi’ words like _darpan, jiivan, g-haa’il, nain, matwaalaa_ etc. all of which are used in Urdu too. Not only Ibn-e-Inshaa’ himself regarded his own work as Urdu literature but others too are classifying it so.


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