# pelo país fora



## William Stein

Can anybody please explain "pelo país fora" here?:

Excepto experiências muito pontuais de bibliotecas operárias e de cursos de educação popular ligadas aos sindicatos e sociedades recreativas operárias no período ditatorial, já em liberdade foram ainda os militares progressistas que encabeçaram e dinamizaram **pelo pais fora** as acções de sensibilização visando a participação das populações em actividades formativas ou ligadas à educação informal.

Except for certain, highly sporadic experiences with working-class libraries and popular education connected with trade unions and workers' recreational societies under the dictatorship, after the liberation it was once again progressive military men who led and energized the consciousness-raising actions **** promoting the participation of the general population in training and informal education activities.


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## englishmania

throughout the country/across the country?


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## William Stein

englishmania said:


> throughout the country/across the country?


 
That makes sense, thanks a lot.


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## djlaranja

I guess there is a mistake here. It should be "Pelo país *a*fora".

It means "throughout the country/across the country".


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## englishmania

There's no mistake. Both options (fora/afora) are ok.


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## William Stein

Yeah, thanks, it looked like "from Portugal towards other countries" which didn't make any sense at all in context.


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## englishmania

Yeah, I knew you had thought it meant _outside Portugal_ = "fora"


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## 4TranslatingEnglish

I prefer "all around the country". Here and there. No particular order. (Opposed to starting in one place and ending in another.)

EDIT:
Also, instead "after the liberation" I propose "after the Revolution (of 1974)*", because it is what it really means.

*Revolução do 25 de Abril de 1974


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## Outsider

_Liberdade_ (lit. 'liberty' or 'freedom') is not the same as revolution. "Liberation" is a good translation, in my opinion.


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## William Stein

Outsider said:


> _Liberdade_ (lit. 'liberty' or 'freedom') is not the same as revolution. "Liberation" is a good translation, in my opinion.


 
I think the author says "liberdade" be he wants to make it clear that he is opposed to the dictatorship and was happy it ended. "Revolution" is ambiguous, because somebody in favor of the dictatorship might be opposed to the Revolution.
By the way, why is it called the "Carnation Revolution"? I assume it is not because it created a consumer society: "Car Nation", where everybody can afford a car ;-)


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## englishmania

http://www.forte.jor.br/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/revolucao-dos-cravos-25abril.jpg

I believe there was a florist in the street who gave out carnations. Soldiers put them in their guns. It was a non-violent revolution (4 people died).


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## William Stein

englishmania said:


> http://www.forte.jor.br/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/revolucao-dos-cravos-25abril.jpg
> 
> I believe there was a florist in the street who gave out carnations. Soldiers put them in their guns. It was a non-violent revolution (4 people died).


 
Well I'm glad it worked. I think I remember a photo of somebody trying to put flowers in the canon of a Russian tank (Prague or Budapest, I think) but it ended very badly.


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## Carfer

William Stein said:


> Well I'm glad it worked. I think I remember a photo of somebody trying to put flowers in the canon of a Russian tank (Prague or Budapest, I think) but it ended very badly.


 
I agree with Outsider, although '_liberation_' is strictly the act of liberating or the short period thereafter (the_ Liberation_ of Paris in World War II, for example). The _'Campanhas de Dinamização Cultural'_ of the military took place a few monthes after the coup, but, in a way, they still fall within the '_liberation_' period. Nonetheless, I'm unable to find a better way to translate this specific sentence. 
I'm not saying that 4TranslatingEnglish is not right about the qualification of the 25 de Abril as a '_revolution_' because it was one, indeed, and, besides, that's how we call it, but William Steiner is translating for a non-Portuguese audience and '_revolution_' doesn't actually equate '_liberty_'. There were lots of revolutions that ended up in dictatorships (our own 28 de Maio, for example, which instituted the dictatorship that was overthrown by the 25 de Abril revolution).
25 de Abril was the Tourist Day at the time of the dictatorship and the Tourism Ministry had made provisions to distribute carnation flowers to Lisbon visitors that day. These and the ones that were intended for sale by street florists (carnation is a common flower in springtime) ended up, at no cost of course, in the soldier's guns and in the cheerful crowd's buttonholes. The four deaths were the deed of the political police, which opened fire from its assieged headquarters on the crowd that was waiting for its surrender.


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## William Stein

Carfer said:


> I William Steiner is translating for a non-Portuguese audience and '_revolution_' doesn't actually equate '_liberty_'.


 
Thanks again for the excellent explanation (as usual), but my name is just "Stein", not "Steiner", otherwise I'll have to start calling you "Carf" to compensate ;-)
Do you know the law of the conversation of Rs? (I doubt it, because my uncle just invented it as a joke). Whereas in the US we say "butteR", the Brits, say "buttuh". To ensure that the number of R's in the universe is held constant (as in the Laws of Thermodynamics), the Brits add an R where there is none, as in "idea-R"!


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## Carfer

William Stein said:


> Thanks again for the excellent explanation (as usual), but my name is just "Stein", not "Steiner", otherwise I'll have to start calling you "Carf" to compensate ;-)
> Do you know the law of the conversation of Rs? (I doubt it, because my uncle just invented it as a joke). Whereas in the US we say "butteR", the Brits, say "buttuh". To ensure that the number of R's in the universe is held constant (as in the Laws of Thermodynamics), the Brits add an R where there is none, as in "idea-R"!


 
Sorry about the name. No idea of where 'Steiner' came from, I was convinced that I had just written 'William'. Feel free to take revenge-


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## 4TranslatingEnglish

Carfer:


> I agree with Outsider, although '_liberation_' is strictly the act of liberating or the short period thereafter (the_ Liberation_ of Paris in World War II, for example).


This is exactly what I mean. The translation makes it sound like Portugal was liberated from an invasion. 
Question: can we call it "liberation" when a country throws down a dictatorship/government by means of a revolution? For instance, were the United States liberated by the American Revolution? This is precisely the same thing. If the answer is yes, the United States were liberated, go ahead with "liberation". If not, William, perhaps you want to consider "the period after the Revolution". Or the "coup", if you prefer. If you're worried about ambiguity you may stress "after the coup that threw down the dictatorship". (By the way, this coup was carried out by the same military that "led and energized the consciousness-raising actions". It's related.)


William Stein:





> I think the author says "liberdade" be he wants to make it clear that he  is opposed to the dictatorship and was happy it ended.


No. You're getting it wrong. What he actually means is the period "[opposed to the] period of the dictatorship, after the Revolution [when there was finally freedom]". In other words, he could have written "after the Revolution of 1974, the military... etc".
The author is not expressing his own opinion (though, in a way, it's implied); he's merely using a synonym for "after the 74's revolution". We usually call the period after the Revolution "a liberdade". It became a kind of "fixed expression", like you say in English, used to define the period of time of the first few years after the Revolution as an opposite to the years of dictatorship.




> "Revolution" is  ambiguous, because somebody in favor of the dictatorship might be  opposed to the Revolution.


Surely, but I don't understand what you mean by this in this context. Anyway, you're coming from the wrong concept that the author is expressing an opinion when he's merely defining a moment. Is this clearer now?

For information on the Revolution itself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnation_Revolution
This may be of use for future translations since we refer to it a lot.


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## William Stein

William Stein:No. You're getting it wrong. What he actually means is the period "[opposed to the] period of the dictatorship, after the Revolution [when there was finally freedom]". In other words, he could have written "after the Revolution of 1974, the military... etc".
The author is not expressing his own opinion (though, in a way, it's implied); he's merely using a synonym for "after the 74's revolution". We usually call the period after the Revolution "a liberdade". It became a kind of "fixed expression", like you say in English, used to define the period of time of the first few years after the Revolution as an opposite to the years of dictatorship.

QUOTE]

I don't think that's a fair criticism. Of course I understand that "liberdade" refers to the period following the dictatorship, what else could it possibly mean? What I said was that the author chose the word "liberdade" because wants to make it clear that he was happy about the result of being liberated (necessarily of a bad thing). On the other hand, as I said, if he had used the word "revolution", it might reflect the opinion of somebody who was in favor of the dictatorship but and saw the revolution as the work of anarchists or something.


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## 4TranslatingEnglish

I'm not criticising you.
I'm only totally failing to get my point across.
One more try and I'll shut up.
The expression "a liberdade" has taken such a meaning that people use it as a synonym for that period without necessarily attaching that much of a political meaning (or opinion) to it, particularly when they are making a distinction between the way things were before and after the revolution. That's my point.
But on a second thought you know the whole context better and maybe the author has previously expressed more opinionated views that lead you to that conclusion.


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## William Stein

4TranslatingEnglish said:


> I'm not criticising you.
> I'm only totally failing to get my point across.
> One more try and I'll shut up.
> The expression "a liberdade" has taken such a meaning that people use it as a synonym for that period without necessarily attaching that much of a political meaning (or opinion) to it, particularly when they are making a distinction between the way things were before and after the revolution. That's my point..


 
Okay, I get your point, thanks!


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## Carfer

4TranslatingEnglish said:


> Carfer:
> This is exactly what I mean. The translation makes it sound like Portugal was liberated from an invasion.
> Question: can we call it "liberation" when a country throws down a dictatorship/government by means of a revolution? For instance, were the United States liberated by the American Revolution? This is precisely the same thing. If the answer is yes, the United States were liberated, go ahead with "liberation". If not, William, perhaps you want to consider "the period after the Revolution". Or the "coup", if you prefer. If you're worried about ambiguity you may stress "after the coup that threw down the dictatorship". (By the way, this coup was carried out by the same military that "led and energized the consciousness-raising actions". It's related.).


 
No meu entender, dum ponto de vista conceptual, sim, podemos. _'Libertação' _é o derrube de qualquer tipo de opressão. Não será, provavelmente, um termo frequentemente aplicado à Revolução Americana, mas foi-o em relação às independências dos povos colonizados (incluindo às dos que nós colonizámos) e mesmo, entre nós, aqui em Portugal, o 25 de Abril foi declarado, muitíssimas vezes, com inteira justiça, como a libertação do Povo português. Mas acontece que até mesmo antes da Revolução o termo já era usado pela oposição portuguesa nos seus documentos e proclamações, com esse mesmo sentido.
A questão, para o que aqui nos interessa, não é essa, porém. A questão é saber que significado tem isso para um leitor que não é português, que sabe pouco ou nada da nossa História e da nossa vivência. E aí eu penso que '_revolução_' pode ser, para um leitor estrangeiro, uma palavra com uma carga semântica que não transmite efectivamente o que o autor quis dizer. Talvez '_libertação_' não seja também o termo mais adequado, mas qualquer um que ponha o acento tónico na liberdade, é. Aliás, eu acho que você propôs aquela que é, possivelmente, a tradução mais próxima do sentido original: '_[when there was finally freedom]_'. 




4TranslatingEnglish said:


> What he actually means is the period "[opposed to the] period of the dictatorship, after the Revolution [when there was finally freedom]". In other words, he could have written "after the Revolution of 1974, the military... etc".
> The author is not expressing his own opinion (though, in a way, it's implied); he's merely using a synonym for "after the 74's revolution". We usually call the period after the Revolution "a liberdade". It became a kind of "fixed expression", like you say in English, used to define the period of time of the first few years after the Revolution as an opposite to the years of dictatorship..


 
Tem toda a razão, no entanto a liberdade só está implícita numa expressão como _'depois da revolução de 74'_ para nós, portugueses, que sabemos que assim foi, não para a maioria dos que o não são e que pouco ou nada sabem de nós. Traduzir assim não daria exactamente a mesma ideia a um leitor não-português.



4TranslatingEnglish said:


> Surely, but I don't understand what you mean by this in this context. Anyway, you're coming from the wrong concept that the author is expressing an opinion when he's merely defining a moment. Is this clearer now?
> 
> For information on the Revolution itself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnation_Revolution
> This may be of use for future translations since we refer to it a lot.


 
Tem razão outra vez, mas temos de compreender o William ou qualquer outro tradutor nas mesmas circunstâncias (e digo isto só por uma questão de princípio, bem sabendo que não havia nenhuma crítica implícita no que você disse nem razão para o tomar como tal, nem eu estou a fazer nenhuma). É bem provável e natural que o William também não esteja muito por dentro dos nossos assuntos e, seja como for, não tem a nossa vivência, não passou, felizmente para ele, por aquilo que nós passámos, vê estas questões pelos olhos dum estrangeiro que lhes é alheio e interpreta-as de acordo com a sua própria vivência e com o seu quadro cultural, o que acaba por se reflectir, necessariamente, no entendimento que tem dos termos, nas dúvidas que se lhe colocam. Por isso nos pede ajuda. E é para isso que cá estamos.


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## William Stein

I read that Wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnation_Revolution, which was very interesting and informative, and it's true I'm not very familiar with that episode. 
It still doesn't make me think that "liberation" is the wrong word, in this context. In fact, the article contains this sentence:
In addition, the other revolutionary Armed Forces Movement (MFA)'s goals were not in the strict interest of the people of Portugal or its Overseas Provinces, since the movement was initiated not only as an attempt to liberate Portugal from the authoritarian Estado Novo regime, but as an attempt of rebellion against the new Military Laws that were to be presented next year.

"To liberate" means to "free from evil", any kind of evil, not necessarily an invasion (look at Women's Liberation, where the evil is us!). In fact, the usual term with invasion is to push back/repel/curtail an invasion, whereas liberate tends to describe freeing the people from the yoke of authoritarian regimes.


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## anaczz

4TranslatingEnglish said:
			
		

> "Surely, but I don't understand what you mean by this in this context.  Anyway, you're coming from the wrong concept that the author is  expressing an opinion when he's merely defining a moment. Is this  clearer now?"



De qualquer forma é uma opinião; é a opinião hegemônica mas é *uma *das visões sobre o que foi o 25 de abril. Há, em Portugal, quem não concorde com essa caracterização (eu convivi por algum tempo com um grupo de portugueses que, provavelmente, me expulsaria do seu convívio se eu defendesse que o 25 de abril foi a liberação, a liberdade, ou qualquer coisa de positivo para o povo e o país) estão quietinhos, mas pensam assim...


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## Carfer

William Stein said:


> I read that Wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnation_Revolution, which was very interesting and informative, and it's true I'm not very familiar with that episode.
> It still doesn't make me think that "liberation" is the wrong word, in this context. In fact, the article contains this sentence:
> In addition, the other revolutionary Armed Forces Movement (MFA)'s goals were not in the strict interest of the people of Portugal or its Overseas Provinces, since the movement was initiated not only as an attempt to liberate Portugal from the authoritarian Estado Novo regime, but as an attempt of rebellion against the new Military Laws that were to be presented next year.
> 
> "To liberate" means to "free from evil", any kind of evil, not necessarily an invasion (look at Women's Liberation, where the evil is us!). In fact, the usual term with invasion is to push back/repel/curtail an invasion, whereas liberate tends to describe freeing the people from the yoke of authoritarian regimes.


 
The new military laws triggered the movement, that's a fact, but the conspiracy aimed at overthrowing the regime long before the revolution itself, as the military realized that no change was possible without a political system turn over. Nevertheless, the movement was not homogeneous, as, along with the progressive democratic left-wing, which in itself was not a homogeneous block too, there were many conservatives and officers who wouldn't have minded too much if some form of authoritarianism prevailed. The New Junta, to the surprise of most of those in the knowing of the conspiracy, came out chaired by a rather conservative general (the rebellion was the work of middle-ranking officers, mostly captains and a few majors) who had been in Russia with the German army and who opposed disbanding the political police and recognizing independence of the colonies. Had it not been the massive commitment of the population to the left-wing military, the revolution could have taken, in the first monthes, a quite different, and not so democratic, course. But these are details, and for all pratical purposes, at the time your text refers to, Portugal was a very free country (too much free to the liking of a few, as anaczz points out, which is no wonder because every regime has its collaborators as well as its dissenters) and the vast majority of the population was actually experiencing a strong feeling of liberation. So '_liberation_' is not, after all, out of place.


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## William Stein

Carfer said:


> The new military laws triggered the movement, that's a fact, but the conspiracy aimed at overthrowing the regime long before the revolution itself, as the military realized that no change was possible without a political system turn over. Nevertheless, the movement was not homogeneous, as, along with the progressive democratic left-wing, which in itself was not a homogeneous block too, there were many conservatives and officers who wouldn't have minded too much if some form of authoritarianism prevailed. The New Junta, to the surprise of most of those in the knowing of the conspiracy, came out chaired by a rather conservative general (the rebellion was the work of middle-ranking officers, mostly captains and a few majors) who had been in Russia with the German army and who opposed disbanding the political police and recognizing independence of the colonies. Had it not been the massive commitment of the population to the left-wing military, the revolution could have taken, in the first monthes, a quite different, and not so democratic, course. But these are details, and for all pratical purposes, at the time your text refers to, Portugal was a very free country (too much to the liking of a few, as anaczz points out, which is no wonder because every regime has its collaborators as well as its dissenters) and the vast majority of the population was actually experiencing a strong feeling of liberation. So '_liberation_' is not, after all, out of place.


 
That's very interesting. I would never trust the army to rule the country (according to the maximum: "Military justice is to justice, what military intelligence is to intelligence"). But regardless of whether the liberation was a real one, or not, I still think it's important to use that term to reflect the point of view of the author, for whom it must have positive connotations (even if "liberdade" has become something of a standard term now).


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## Carfer

William Stein said:


> That's very interesting. I would never trust the army to rule the country (according to the maximum: "Military justice is to justice, what military intelligence is to intelligence")*(*)*.


 
There are exceptions, lucky us. They handed power to the civilians soon after, retaining a few control handles which they totally released four years later. Why was that so is a quite interesting matter, but it is out of scope here (it has mainly to do with the fact that at that time the Portuguese army was no longer a classical army. The exponential growth of file and rank due to the war pervaded the armed forces with conscript, non-professional officers, who came from universities and were the opposite of the regular military minded officer).

(*) Well, non-military intelligence records and performance are not outstanding either.



William Stein said:


> But regardless of whether the liberation was a real one, or not, I still think it's important to use that term to reflect the point of view of the author, for whom it must have positive connotations (even if "liberdade" has become something of a standard term now).


 
I entirely agree.


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