# win-win



## danalto

HOLLY - Yeah, I'm serious.  You should go for it, too.
 
TINA - No, Holly, I appreciate it, but don't you want it, too?

 HOLLY - Well, yeah, but if you get it, then I can brag that I brought my smart friend onboard.  It's a *win-win*.

Just looking for an equivalent, in Italian we could -_maybe_- render it with a Latin idiom: *do ut des*, which means "*give (something) to get (something*)"


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## Elisa68

Che ne dici di: _siamo pari_?


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## danalto

Hmm, non è proprio questo, anche se in altri momenti "siamo pari" potrebbe andare benissimo.


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## Auno

Hmm...

È una situazione vantaggiosa per entrambi.

One wonders how Holly will end up here...


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## lsp

Nessuno perde?
Vinciamo io _e_ te?


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## Necsus

Anche "tutti vincono/vincono tutti"...


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## TimLA

Daniela,
This is an odd suggestion, but that fits me perfectly. 

Given your "influence" in the national media - translating for many TV programs -
why couldn't you "create" a new phrase like "vince-vince" and use it?

Keep in mind that the first time "win-win" was used, we had never heard it before in English, and over time it has become an English staple.

Can't that happen in Italian?
***
Daniela, you have a great opportunity to become a major trend-setter! 
The "Accademia della Daniela" is a major possibility!
Forza Daniela!

Tim

NB - Everything above the *** is serious, that below *** is less so.


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## TrentinaNE

TimLA said:
			
		

> Keep in mind that the first time "win-win" was used, we had never heard it before in English, and over time it has become an English staple.


Earliest reference to "win-win" I can find electronically:


> In recent years, managers have taken over from game theory the notion that decision-making events can be one of two types: the win-lose situation (or zero-sum game) or the win-win situation in which everybody in the action comes out ahead. As part of the process of reconciling differences among people and maintaining balances of power, managers strive to convert win-lose into win-win situations.


From *The Harvard Business Review*, May/June 1997, article titled _Managers and Leaders: Are They Different?_ by Abraham Zaleznik. 

The expression seems to have been limited to the corporate world for a few years before becoming common in everyday language.  

Elisabetta


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## danalto

Oh, Tim...

(Seriously: this already happens! Are you curious about it? I'll tell you in private...I think it would be better...)


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## danalto

In alcuni contesti, forse si può rendere con:
"il momento della rivincita" o soltanto "rivincita"...che ne dite?


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## Blackman

Io prefererirei "Vado in pari" o "cado in piedi" o "vinco comunque" o "comunque ci guadagno".

Vado in pari e' diverso da siamo pari.


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## elfa

danalto said:


> In alcuni contesti, forse si può rendere con:
> "il momento della rivincita" o soltanto "rivincita"...che ne dite?



Con mesi di ritardo, this sounds rather one-sided. I would have thought Necsus's suggestion  of "tutti vincono" is closest to the original.


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## danalto

@elfa: con anni di ritardo, in realtà! 

Nel mio contesto l'amico brutto e ciccione di Tommy -che invece è un bell'uomo- si porta a letto una bellissima ragazza, e dice, appunto, 

*LOU
Finally it's a win-win for old Lou.*

E mi sembra che "*mi sono preso una bella rivincita*", in questo caso, potrebbe starci bene. Voi che cosa ne dite?


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## Blackman

Scusa, ma io non riesco a ravvisare il concetto di rivincita. Dovrebbe essere un lose-win, una rivincita. Qui si tratta di una doppia vittoria, cioe' da qualunque parte la si guardi, si vince. Or am I completely wrong?


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## danalto

Blackman said:


> Scusa, ma io non riesco a ravvisare il concetto di rivincita. Dovrebbe essere un lose-win, una rivincita. Qui si tratta di una doppia vittoria, cioe' da qualunque parte la si guardi, si vince. Or am I completely wrong?



Ma tu quando superi un amico (in qualunque ambito) non dici "mi sono preso una bella rivincita"?
Slegato da significati puramente "linguistici", intendo?
Posso benissimo sbagliare io, però mi suona corretto...


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## TrentinaNE

> HOLLY - Well, yeah, but if you get it, then I can brag that I brought my smart friend onboard. It's a win-win.


Non è una questione di superare. Il risultato è buono per tutte e due. Tutte vincono. 

Elisabetta


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## Blackman

danalto said:


> Ma tu quando superi un amico (in qualunque ambito) non dici "mi sono preso una bella rivincita"?
> Slegato da significati puramente "linguistici", intendo?
> Posso benissimo sbagliare io, però mi suona corretto...



Sono d'accordo, ma qui nessuno supera nessuno. In un win win si vince in entrambi i casi. Cioe' Holly vince sia che lui vada o no. 'Vince comunque', appunto. Ti suggerirei "scacco matto" se non fosse leggermente diverso, perché vince con qualsiasi mossa, non solo con due possibilita'.


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## GavinW

Blackman said:


> Sono d'accordo, ma qui nessuno supera nessuno. In un win win si vince in entrambi i casi. Cioe' Holly vince sia che lui vada o no. 'Vince comunque', appunto. Ti suggerirei "scacco matto" se non fosse leggermente diverso, perché vince con qualsiasi mossa, non solo con due possibilita'.


 
Esatto. Fai bene a rettificare qualche incomprensione che c'è stata riguardo questo termine.
Poi penso che l'idea viene resa bene anche dall'espressione "Sono/Siamo in una botte di ferro!"
;-)


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## danalto

Blackman said:


> Sono d'accordo, ma qui nessuno supera nessuno. In un win win si vince in entrambi i casi. Cioe' Holly vince sia che lui vada o no. 'Vince comunque', appunto. Ti suggerirei "scacco matto" se non fosse leggermente diverso, perché vince con qualsiasi mossa, non solo con due possibilita'.



Io stavo parlando del mio contesto... quello del post #13, di oggi!
Tu alludi invece a quello del 2006


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## Blackman

Oops...

Pero' win win sempre doppia vittoria significa....
Guarda il caso...sto guardando "mostri contro alieni" con sottotitoli e cosa dice Derek sul finale? it's a win win!, tradotto con doppia vittoria....
Non l'avevo mai sentito fino ad oggi...


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## GavinW

Blackman said:


> it's a win win!, tradotto con doppia vittoria....


 
Interesting. Another mistranslation!

EDIT: Perhaps I should explain why I don't think "doppia vittoria" can ever be right: it's because "a win-win" or "a win-win situation" refers to a single event, which will lead to one, and only one, of two possible outcomes, both of which are advantageous. In real life of course this rarely seems to happen. Usually there is a right choice and a wrong choice. Hence the joy in finding oneself in a situation in which one comes out top regardless of one's decision or actions.


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## lillo07717

Io direi: "Sono sempre avvantaggiato", oppure "Non si puo' sbagliare"


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## danalto

So, at the end...
*"E così stiamo pari.."* could be the better one.


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## Blackman

danalto said:


> @elfa: con anni di ritardo, in realtà!
> 
> Nel mio contesto l'amico brutto e ciccione di Tommy -che invece è un bell'uomo- si porta a letto una bellissima ragazza, e dice, appunto,
> 
> *LOU*
> *Finally it's a win-win for old Lou.*
> 
> E mi sembra che "*mi sono preso una bella rivincita*", in questo caso, potrebbe starci bene. Voi che cosa ne dite?


 
Mmmmmm...non basta per dare un responso definitivo. A chi lo dice?
Serve altra conversazione e contesto....ma se ti vuoi accontentare....


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## Curandera

Io direi:

_'Finalmente il vecchio Lou ha retto il confronto'. _


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## danalto

Blackman said:


> Mmmmmm...non basta per dare un responso definitivo. A chi lo dice?
> Serve altra conversazione e contesto....ma se ti vuoi accontentare....



Lo dice ad un collega, al quale sta comunicando l'accaduto.
Ovviamente fra Lou e Tommy c'è forte rivalità - specie proprio per questa ragazza.
Tommy gli aveva in precedenza detto a brutto muso che non avrebbe avuto nessuna chance, con lei, perché lui è bruttino e cicciottello.

Ecco perché ho pensato a quella battuta.


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## Blackman

Dalla tua descrizione, "rivincita" sembra la soluzione giusta. Resta il fatto che non si accorda con win-win. Forse al collega dice anche qualcos'altro? Se ha vinto anche altro, la battuta avrebbe più senso.


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## Alec71

Visto che è una specie di competizione potrebbe essere indicato un modo di dire molto televisivo e calcistico:
* Uno pari palla al centro per il vecchio Lou!*


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## Blackman

Alec71 said:


> Visto che è una specie di competizione potrebbe essere indicato un modo di dire molto televisivo e calcistico:
> *Uno pari palla al centro per il vecchio Lou!*


 
_Uno pari_ non è per nessuno dei due. E se ha segnato Lou la palla al centro va all'altro.


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## Alec71

Blackman said:


> _Uno pari_ non è per nessuno dei due. E se ha segnato Lou la palla al centro va all'altro.


 
Chi ha segnato si è rimesso allo stesso livello di colui che stava vincendo e la competizione può proseguire senza che sia un perdente fino a quel momento...


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## GavinW

The specific context is continuing to mislead various foreros as to the meaning of this expression. However, we must not allow any incidental connotations of the context to influence and undermine our correct understanding of the expression.

The rivalry is incidental. As is Lou's previous bad record with girls. As is his age, or the fact he has a wooden leg...

_All_ the expression means is that Lou finds himself in a situation _in which he_ _cannot lose_. Period. Whatever decision he makes, including the things he says or does (ie with this girl, during the course of the evening), it will result in him having a good time. That's all. No reference to anybody else, or any other situation (ie in the past). As I suggested earlier (not necessarily as a translation, but certainly as a guide to meaning): Lou si trova in una botte di ferro (per così dire).

I hope this is a bit clearer now. Once clear, we may decide that we are not satisfied that the expression is particularly descriptive of what is going on in the context (ie Lou's situation). In fact, we are free to decide that the expression is not particularly suitable or felicitous. Maybe we would have said something different. Fine. 
If, however, the meaning is still not clear, then I shall despair of ever being able to express myself in words. I shall probably go outside and shoot myself, if you really want to know...
;-)


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## Blackman

GavinW said:


> The specific context is continuing to mislead various foreros as to the meaning of this expression. However, we must not allow any incidental connotations of the context to influence and undermine our correct understanding of the expression.
> 
> The rivalry is incidental. As is Lou's previous bad record with girls. As is his age, or the fact he has a wooden leg...
> 
> _All_ the expression means is that Lou finds himself in a situation _in which he_ _cannot lose_. Period. Whatever decision he makes, including the things he says or does (ie with this girl, during the course of the evening), it will result in him having a good time. That's all. No reference to anybody else, or any other situation (ie in the past). As I suggested earlier (not necessarily as a translation, but certainly as a guide to meaning): Lou si trova in una botte di ferro (per così dire).
> 
> I hope this is a bit clearer now. Once clear, we may decide that we are not satisfied that the expression is particularly descriptive of what is going on in the context (ie Lou's situation). In fact, we are free to decide that the expression is not particularly suitable or felicitous. Maybe we would have said something different. Fine.
> If, however, the meaning is still not clear, then I shall despair of ever being able to express myself in words. I shall probably go outside and shoot myself, if you really want to know...
> ;-)


 
Thanks Gavin. It's absolutely _pristine_ in my mind. I would have never been able to explain it the way you have (..feel free to correct this, please....


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## GavinW

Blackman said:


> Thanks Gavin. It's absolutely _pristine_ in my mind. I would have never been able to explain it the way you have (..feel free to correct this, please....


 
Er, you mean you _want_ me to correct your use of the adjective "pristine"? I wouldn't dare, as you've just rescued me from shooting myself with a banana...
;-)


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## giovannino

GavinW said:


> _All_ the expression means is that Lou finds himself in a situation _in which he_ _cannot lose_. Period. Whatever decision he makes, including the things he says or does (ie with this girl, during the course of the evening), it will result in him having a good time. That's all. No reference to anybody else, or any other situation (ie in the past). As I suggested earlier (not necessarily as a translation, but certainly as a guide to meaning): Lou si trova in una botte di ferro (per così dire).


 
Hi Gavin,

My understanding of "a win-win situation" has always been exactly the same as yours, i.e. a situation in which you cannot lose whatever decision you make.
However, the definition quoted by Elisabetta in her post is quite different: 



> the win-win situation in which everybody in the action comes out ahead


 
The _New Oxford Dictionary _agrees:



> a situation in which each party benefits in some way


 
Could it be that the expression was originally only used in the "everybody wins" sense but then started being used in the "you can't lose no matter what you do" sense as well?


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## TimLA

From a purely AE perspective, when you see "win-win" it really means "win-win situation".

From what I remember, the phrase was most commonly used in business (sales, for example) and meant that given a particular series of circumstances,
two people/companies sitting across the table could agree on something, and both sides of the table could "win" - that is,
given the entirely of the negotiations, at the end, both sides seemed to have achieved one or more of the "things" that they wanted.

It is now commonly used outside of business.
It can be used in almost any situation in which two people/groups/corporations are trying to workout an agreement, and in the end, the "situation" gives some advantages to both sides.
I've also seen it used in situations where there are three "sides" and you hear "It's a win-win-win".

To me, I wouldn't use it to describe a situation in which no matter what you do, you have an advantage.
I would always use it when describing a situation with two individuals, and some given outcome in which both "win" or partially "win".

With Google I've noted that many times it is not translated -
...situazione "win-win"...
..."win-win situation"...

For "win-win game" (an analog), Wiki gives us "gioco vinci-vinci".


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## GavinW

Ah, I probably stand corrected . Yes, I'm willing to accept that the term is also used to refer to the situation that more than one (ie 2, here) persons or parties find themselves in, in which both parties stand to benefit.

Thus: "Si vince tutti", "Si vince tutti e due", "Vinciamo tutti quanti" etc.

Apologies for being too sure of myself earlier. But we seem to be getting to the right answer with a little more clarity now, at least... ;-)


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## TrentinaNE

This may be an AE/BE difference, but I've always understood "win-win" to have the meaning Tim has explained (and which I noted back in Post #8 ).

Elisabetta


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## debboa

Forse in Italiano la cosa che si avvicina odi più al concetto è _*Siamo sullo stesso carro!*_


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