# Mielőtt + verb



## tarinoidenkertoja

Hello,
I've a simple question about  the usage of "mielőtt".
I wanted to write : " Because of this, I want to try before deciding".
My attempt : "Emiatt, mielőtt eldöntenék, akarom kipróbálni", a hungarian friend corrected the "eldöntsek" with "eldöntöm", I can't understand why.I thought that this conjunction always requires the conditional mood, am I right?


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## Olivier0

Hello, I am not a Hungarian native either, but because of family contacts with natives I can see both the grammatical and the real-use side of such questions. First of all, a minor problem is the preverbs:
- I feel the main use is eldönt + vmit (object) but dönt + vmiről (about sth) - probably not true in all cases as the preverb may also imply a "fuller" thing (take a decision), but here el- does not seem useful just to say "(before) I decide",
- akar (like tud, kell, etc.) makes the preverb move before it,
so your test sentence is (assuming your "eldöntsek" is a typo):
_mielőtt döntenék, ki akarom próbálni / mielőtt döntök, ki akarom próbálni._
Both seem to be possible, which is indeed surprising, considering the general rule of mielőtt + conditional.
Maybe the present indicative is more of a general present, "before I decide (in general)", so the other one would be more "before I decide (now)"? But the latter would fit better, and still you were told you can use the present, so I do not know more than this: both are possible.
-- Olivier


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## Zsanna

Just a few more ideas.



tarinoidenkertoja said:


> I wanted to write : " Because of this, I want to try before deciding".
> My attempt : "Emiatt or Ezért, mielőtt eldöntenék, ki akarom/szeretném kipróbálni", a Hungarian friend corrected the "eldöntsek" -> not possible like this with "eldöntöm" - OK/possible,


_Ezért_ sounds a bit better to me but maybe the context could change my opinion.

_akarom_ (also: akarnám)/_szeretném_ are all possible and correct, although _szeretném_ translates as "would like to", so a bit less direct (Conditional not obligatory)

I don't quite see how "eldöntsek" propped up as a possibility. You could imagine this verb form in a sentence like this: Hogy eldöntsek bármit is, előbb ki szeretném próbálni.



tarinoidenkertoja said:


> I thought that this conjunction always requires the conditional mood, am I right?


I don't know of such a rule in Hungarian. You can say either mielőtt eldöntöm (Indicative) or mielőtt eldönteném (Conditional), it does not make a big difference. (The first sound more direct, the second more polite but depending on the tone/general style, etc., the first can also be polite as the second firm enough.)

N.B. *döntenék* (what to do, in general) vs. *eldönteném* (what to do, in particular)


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## Olivier0

Zsanna said:


> I don't know of such a rule in Hungarian. You can say either mielőtt eldöntöm (Indicative) or mielőtt eldönteném (Conditional), it does not make a big difference. (The first sound more direct, the second more polite but depending on the tone/general style, etc., the first can also be polite as the second firm enough.)


That "rule" may be essentially the following remark:
(Kántor Gergely: A feltételes mód és a felszólító mód használata, p. 16)


> (49) Mielőtt a Balatonhoz érnél, áthaladsz Székesfehérváron. (...)
> A (49)-es példában a főmondathoz képest a mellékmondat utóidejű, így szükségképpen irreális.


"Before you arrive at the Balaton, you go through Székesfehérvár - The subordinate clause is at a later time than the main clause, so it is necessarily unreal" (hence the conditional mode)

So in our case, the real/unreal distinction would be
_mielőtt döntök_ - before I decide (and you can be sure I will decide)
_mielőtt döntenék_ - before I decide (if I ever decide, I might as well not decide after all)
and in a situation like "let me try this before I decide", it is clear you will indeed decide.

-- Olivier


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## tarinoidenkertoja

Thank you for your replies, I was misled by the fact that in my grammar ,  in the only example provided mielőtt is followed by a conditional.
So if I get you right, in a sentence like " I decide the job I'm going to apply for" I'd use "eldönt", while in "I decide where to work" I use "dőnt".
I've just begun with *H*ungarian so be patient with me


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## francisgranada

The verbal prefixes like _el, be, ki, meg _... typically give the verb a _prefective _aspect, i.e. the "action" is also supposed to be completed. This aspect is in English expressed by other means, or not expressed at all.

Dönteni kell valamiről - It is necessary to decide about something. In this case the proper "action" (or better: the fact) of "deciding" is accentuated/expressed.

El kell dönteni valamit - It is necessary to decide (about) something. In this case the completion of the "process of the deciding" is expected, i.e. "to make a definite decision". 

But the verb _dönteni _is too abstract, so it's not the best example for explaining or understanding the difference between the perfective and imperfective aspects. So let's see an other example:

Írtam a nevemet - I have been writing/I was writing my name
Leírtam a nevemet - I have written/I wrote down my name 

(the English translations are approximative)


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## Zsanna

Oh, this is getting complicated...


Olivier0 said:


> So in our case, the real/unreal distinction would be
> _mielőtt döntök_ - before I decide (and you can be sure I will decide)
> _mielőtt döntenék_ - before I decide (if I ever decide, I might as well not decide after all)
> and in a situation like "let me try this before I decide", it is clear you will indeed decide.


I'm sorry, but for me this is not a real/unreal distinction necessarily, or even firstly... The first just sounds more determined and the second more polite, less authoritative. 
So the first could be said by a boss (who can come up with anything in the end, including a 3rd possibility!) and the second by a more diplomatic person who may have a very definite idea about which way he wants to decide, he just doesn't wish to show it. So, in either case, the speaker can come up with a decision or none at all - it'll just be presented in another way...

I don't think it ("unreal") is a fortunate term even in the example with Balaton - especially if you are still "here" (e.g. in Pest): Balaton is just as "unreal" as Székesfehérvár at this moment. This is why you could even use the indicative in both parts of that sentence. (Mielőtt a Balatonhoz érsz, áthaladsz Székesfehérváron.)
But I should have a look at that source you mention, Olivier.


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## francisgranada

Hello Zsanna and Olivier .

Actually, I do agree with both of you. Indeed in a common (everyday) speech there is no much difference between the conditional and and the indicative in this case, from the point of view of "realness".

 On the other hand, the possibility of the usage of the conditional in this case is neigther casual nor the consequence of some "requirement" to be polite or less authoritative. The opposit is true: we use (and often abuse, not only in Hungarian but generally) the grammatical forms that express the "unreal/possible" aspects instead of using the "natural" direct forms. The result is a certain "insensitivity" towards the original function of the some grammatical criteria. 

For example, instead of "Jöjjön már ide" we tend to say phrases like "Nem lenne szíves végre idejönni?" etc ... But this doesn't mean that "nem lenne szíves" is _really _a form of imperative ...  Of course, the example with Balaton and Székesfehérvár is, perhaps, not the best example from the practical point of view, but I still feel the difference. With other words, if we want to understand exactly the differences and nuances, the argumentation of Olivier (according to the given link) is acceptable and (for me) plausible.


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## tarinoidenkertoja

francisgranada said:


> The verbal prefixes like _el, be, ki, meg _... typically give the verb a _prefective _aspect, i.e. the "action" is also supposed to be completed. This aspect is in English expressed by other means, or not expressed at all



I admit that I think of Russian when dealing with perfective verbs, so it's possible that it leads me astray in Hungarian but I suppose a perfective verb in the present tense has already a future meaning in itself in Hungarian too, am I right?
In this case I try then I make a decision so isn't it already implied that I will have decided?(I wrote before I decide, since in English there's no need to underline the fact that I will actually decide  using the perfect future). Or does it simply sound unnatural in Hungarian to use eldönteni in this case?


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## Olivier0

Maybe it is a natural tendancy that the "unreal/possible" character and politeness are mixed: for instance in French "please give me 1 kg of potatoes / kérek szépen 1 kg krumplit" is usually expressed _je voudrais un kilo de pommes de terre_, literaly "I would want..." with a conditional which really has no other value than being polite. I see your native language is Italian: _vorrei un chilo di patate_ is just the same.
-- Olivier


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## francisgranada

> Or does it simply sound unnatural in Hungarian to use eldönteni in this case?


No, the phrase "Emiatt/Ezért, mielőtt eldöntené*m*, ki akarom próbálni" doesn't sound unnatural (at least to me ). 



> I admit that I think of Russian when dealing with perfective verbs, so it's possible that it leads me astray in Hungarian but I suppose a perfective verb in the present tense has already a future meaning in itself in Hungarian too, am I right?


Partially yes, because a "true" present does not exist ... But in Russian the prefixed verb indeed _replaces _the "standard" future construction, e.g. _ja budu pisať _but _ja napišu_ (and not *_ja budu napisať_). In Hungarian _fogom írni_ and _le fogom írni _are both valid future forms. So _eldöntöm _is, let's say, a "quasi" present and _el fogom dönteni _is an explicit future.

Of course, the present can be used, depending on the context, also instead of the future, exactly like in italian (domani decido/domani deciderò), regardless of the prefix (or the perfective aspect).


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## Zsanna

I think it would be better to ignore the real/unreal aspect as well as the perfective aspect of the preverbs for the moment in view of the actual possibilities of translating the original sentence.

Which, in my mind, could be the following:

Mielőtt döntök/eldöntöm (possible indicative forms) or döntenék/eldönteném (possible conditional forms), ki akarom/szeretném próbálni (possible indicative and conditional forms, _all usable_ with any one of the 4 verbs in the previous part)...



tarinoidenkertoja said:


> I admit that I think of Russian when dealing with perfective verbs, so it's possible that it leads me astray in Hungarian but I suppose a perfective verb in the present tense has already a future meaning in itself in Hungarian too, am I right? It sounds a bit strange to put it like this but you may wish to elaborate that in a new thread.
> In this case I try then I make a decision so isn't it already implied that I will have decided?(I wrote before I decide, since in English there's no need to underline the fact that I will actually decide  using the perfect future). Or does it simply sound unnatural in Hungarian to use eldönteni ...As you can see from my above examples, it is perfectly OK to use (even 2 forms of) _eldönteni!_


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## Zsanna

francisgranada said:


> Partially yes, because a "true" present does not exist ...



Francis, are you sure you didn't mean to say: a "true" future does not exist? (As it is expressed with a _present form_ in Hungarian, i.e. there is no conjugation that would be exclusively for expressing the future. E.g. the verb _fog_ conjugated in the present to express the future.)


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## francisgranada

Zsanna said:


> Francis, are you sure you didn't mean to say: a "true" future does not exist? (As it is expressed with a _present form_ in Hungarian, i.e. there is no conjugation that would be exclusively for expressing the future. E.g. the verb _fog_ conjugated in the present to express the future.)


What you say is also true, and not only in Hungarian (shall/will, budu, werde, hò in decider-ò, ... are all presents from the grammatical point of view). 

But here I wanted to say that a _true present _practically does not exist from the point of wiev of the "reality". When something is done or accomplished, even if right _now,_ it immediately becomes _past_. If it is not yet done, it is practically _future_. Thus the perfective verb forms like leírom, elmegyek, eldöntöm ... have a "natural" future sense. 

Even if not exactly the same but, I think from a certain point of view, a similar "thing" happens in English or Italian in the opposit direction: I have decided/ho deciso ... have also a perfective sense and the verbs to have/avere are conjugated in the present. Neverthless, these constructions "naturally" refer to the past and not to the momentaneous present. 

In other words, a jelen csak egy múló pillanat  ....


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## Zsanna

francisgranada said:


> ...But here I wanted to say that a _true present _practically does not exist from the point of wiev of the "reality...


Wow, that's a brave thing to say! 
One could also say that it is the past and the future that don't exist and there is only a(n eternal) present. Here and now. Ici et maintenant. Ora e qua. Etc. etc. 
But that would lead us really off topic.


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## Akitlosz

Ezért mielőtt eldöntené*m*, ki akarom próbálni.
or
Ezért mielőtt döntenék, ki akarom próbálni.


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