# Обширенъ долженъ быть удѣлъ славянъ!



## Maurichette

Hey!

I have problems with the word "удѣлъ" in the sentence "Обширенъ долженъ быть удѣлъ славянъ!" I think it's archaic and cant find the proper translation.

Thanks to any russian expert for help!


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## Ihori

Yes. It is archaic.
In 1918 the letter *ѣ* had been simplified to the letter *e *(the small revolution in orthography and garmmar).
But google =>  удел => "*удел* — Викисловарь"  give you sense.
See No. 2 and 3.


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## Maurichette

Ihori, thanks for this excellent explanation.

This is actually a line of the poem for which I need a translation. Above is the "official" translation (that I found in a book) and I just figured it's not as beautiful as the original. So I'm asking once again for a favor, I'm sure someone here could find a better translation! 

Here is original Slovenian version, because without it it would be impossible to explain (and I'm sure Russian people quite understand this!): *Največ sveta otrokom sliši Slave* (The most children of the world hear the glory). But here "Slave - сла́ва" doesn't actually mean the glory, because it's written with a capital S - it means the Slavic languages (so the word glory is used instead, because it's a beautiful word with the same root -SLAV). So in the end it means that the Slavic nations are the biggest nations of the world. (I think that was true around 1837, when the greatest Slovenian poet F. Prešeren wrote this poem). So it's an absolutely beautiful verse and I'd love a good translation. I would be pleased if it is possible to put the word "сла́ва" in the Russian version - then you would do a better job than the official translator!!

Thans to anyone who will try to translate!

I'm planning to make a tattoo with this verse, but i'm not sure whether to make it Slovenian or Russian (cyrillic would be more beautiful I think). 

So make sure to get it right!


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## Maroseika

Maurichette said:


> Največ sveta otrokom sliši Slave (The most children of the world hear the glory)


Even with Slavs the phrase is not very clear. Can you explain it? Why children, why world? Doesn't _Največ sveta_ mean 'the most part of the world'?
And what is the title of this poem? I'm sure it has been translated many times already, and by real poets.




> the greatest Slovenian poet F. Prešeren


By the way, can you explain why the day of his death is now holiday of Slovenian culture, and not the day of his birth?


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## rusita preciosa

Sorry, I do not follow your tread...

First post: 
*Обширенъ долженъ быть удѣлъ славянъ!
*Here *удѣлъ* means something like "territory / property".

Second post: 
*Največ sveta otrokom sliši Slave* = The most children of the world hear the glory/Slavic languages? This English sentence does not make any sense to me. (unless *Največ *means "forever" rather than "the most") 

These are two different sentences, what is your question?


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## Maroseika

Well, here is original of "Крещение при Савице" and here is one of translations (quite loose, though) .

_Največ sveta otrokom sliši Slave,_
tje bomo našli pot, kjer nje sinovi
si prosti vol'jo vero in postave. 

Пусть мало нас, но Славии сыны
Сумеют проложить туда дорогу,
Где, вольные, и в вере мы вольны.

Looks like English translation is completely wrong. But anyway the very word _Slave _is translated as Славия.

By the way, is it possible that the very phrase was well-know even before this poem? Why it is in italics there?


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## Maurichette

I'm sorry for the bad English translation. I know it is hard to  understand Slovenian verse, (moreover it is archaic...). I have put it  there, because I don't know how else I could explain.

Največ sveta otrokom sliši Slave ---(less archaic)--> Največ otrok sveta sliši Slave ----->

Največ (The most)
otrok (of the children)
sveta (of the world)
sliši (hear)
Slave (Slavic languages) The word means glory, but here it means Slavic languages, because the words are similar 


Why children ? It doesn't matter, it could be people.

So the meaning is: The Slavic peoples form the most (the biggest part)  of the world. Once again, this was true in Prešeren's time! 
So basically, I would like that someone, who speaks Russian (I do not,  sadly), translates this, and he can do so by using the same (equivalent)  words and possibly the word glory in the end, if it makes any sense in  Russian, and if it could also mean Slavic languages (not necessarily  grammatically correct)!

RUSITA PRECIOSA:

In the begining I was asking about the translation of this verse in  Russian, which I found, but then I figured I don't like it, so now I'm  asking for another translation by you, people speaking the Russian  language. I didn't want to open a new thread for that.


MAROSEIKA:

It never occured to me that it could be taken from somewhere else, but it's possible! It is_ always _written  in italics. But has always been a special sentence to me, so I thought  with special sentence comes special writing. Silly me. I have to check  that out.

The translation that you found (I didn't know there's another one) I  don't understand very well because I'm really bad at Russian. But it  seems to me, that it's loose, just like you said.

Why do we "celebrate the death" of Prešeren ? This is an excellent  question and I'm glad that you are interested in Slovene culture. The  reality is: during the end of WW2, in the february 1945, the authorities  wanted to make up a new holiday - and the date of Prešeren's death was  coming up - the 8th of February, so they chose it. The question rises  every year - why not change it to the date of birth ? As a result, they  set the day of birth (the 3rd of December) as the "happy day of  culture", which is a smaller holiday (there are other 2 big holidays in  December). But the conspiracy remains. Most of the people share the  opinion, that the holiday on the date of death reflects the morbidness  and the "dark side" of the nation. But for the others like me, we know  that the only thing that matters is his work. His death was a turning  point in history - the end of his work, which was not appretiated during  his life (mainly because of his low morals - 2 inlegitimate children,  drinking problems, he was never married). His life was sad and  emotionally tough - he was dispised by his only true love (Julia Primic,  to whom he dedicated crown of sonnets Magistrale, another most  accomplished work, next to Kreščenie pri Savice), so some people say he  was redeemed when he died. So after his death his work was finally  seperated from his unappreciated life and behaviour - and people started  to forget about his personal mistakes and appreciate his rich  inheritance for the Slovenian nation. 

I hope this somewhat answers your question, but the firm answer doesn't exist.


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## rusita preciosa

Maurichette said:


> In the begining I was asking about the translation of this verse in Russian, which I found, but then I figured I don't like it, so now I'm asking for another translation by you, people speaking the Russian language. I didn't want to open a new thread for that.


You are supposed to open separate threads for different questions - read the rules.
I still do not understand what your question is and what you need help with.


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## Maroseika

Maurichette said:


> Največ sveta otrokom sliši Slave ---(less archaic)--> Največ otrok sveta sliši Slave ----->
> 
> Največ (The most)
> otrok (of the children)
> sveta (of the world)
> sliši (hear)
> Slave (Slavic languages) The word means glory, but here it means Slavic languages, because the words are similar
> 
> Why children ? It doesn't matter, it could be people.
> 
> So the meaning is: The Slavic peoples form the most (the biggest part)  of the world. Once again, this was true in Prešeren's time!



Very well, but what does mean _sliši _? Who and whom hears?




> It is always written in italics


Can it be from some ancient chroncile and that is why it's so archaic? Or it is not more outdated than all the Prešeren's language? 



> and he can do so by using the same (equivalent) words and possibly the word glory in the end, if it makes any sense in Russian, and if it could also mean Slavic languages (not necessarily grammatically correct)!


There is no such word in Russian Славия, but nevertheless it is well associated as with Slavs as with glory (even there is wide spread folk etymology: славяне < слава). 

However the main problem is that the very phrase is still quite obscure, especially the word sliši. Can it also mean 'speak' or better say can _sliši Slave_ figuratively mean "speak Slavic"?
In such case the whole phrase might mean "the most part of people in the world speak Slavic".
By the way, I strongly doubt this affirmation was ever true: Chinese, Arab or Hindi speakers must have been much more numerous that times too.

Or, if understood literally, it may mean something quite different: that the most part of people in the world can hear Slavic languages, i.e. Slavs have penetrated into each corner of the world.




> Why do we "celebrate the death" of Prešeren ?


Thank you for explanation.


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## LilianaB

Hi, Maurichette. _Most of the world hears (or will hear) the sound of glory, or the Slavs or the Slavic(language or languages)_ Is that what it means in the original? I think so, but please confirm. I don't translate poetry into Russian, but maybe someone who does can help you if this is the meaning in English, which I think it is. _Slav_ should be purposely ambiguous here as _Glory_ and _Slavic_. Slavs or Slavic should be left purposely ambiguous, because this was the intention of the poet, I think. The world can usually hear _the sound of glory_, in poetry Here it could hear the _Glory_ and the _Slavs_ as one, all encompassing word. I believe the poet thought that the word _Slav_ or _Slavic_ came from _slava_ - _glory_. There are different theories as well that it could have come from _word_ - _slovo_, but here definitely _glory_ and _Slavs_ are tied together.

Целый мир услышит славян , maybe.


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## Maurichette

MAROSEIKA:

The children (the people) hear the "_Slave_". Yes, it could figuratively mean that they speak it! It is not important. »Hear« is more beautiful than »speak« because indicates that they listen to each other, understand each other.

I did some research and it seems it is Prešeren's original thought. Maybe it's in itallics because it _sounds _ancient. Or because it's not true, as you pointed out correctly. Prešeren _anticipated_ that we may become the biggest and most important. That are the two possibilities, I didn't find more, unfortunately. Another reason why it is so archaic and ambiguous is that he wanted to conceal it by making it hard to understand (the Hapsburg authority wouldn't be pleased).

Even if such word (glory – meaning Slavic) does not exist, I would be pleased if you used a word similar to »glory« (you mentioned слава, which looks great) – the word doesn't have to be correct or even it doesn't need to exist, it just needs to sound as if it could stand for »Slavic«, »Slavs« etc. (because it has the same root – starting with _slav_-). I hope I am clear, but if I'm not, please let me know.

LILIANAB:

Everything that you stated is accurate. The word _Slavs_ comes from the word _slovo_ - The Slavs used that word for each other, because they understood each other's _slovo _- the spoken languages.
It probably doesn't come form "glory", but the two words are similar, as you pointed out.

Your translation into English is totally correct, I hope it helps somebody to understand the verse.
Yes, the glory and the Slavs are purposely ambiguous and that's why the word shouldn't be left out in the translation.


RUSITA PRECIOSA:

I'm sorry, I didn't know the rules are so strict. Now it's too late to make it right.


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## Maroseika

Maurichette said:


> The children (the people) hear the "_Slave_". Yes, it could figuratively mean that they speak it! It is not important. »Hear« is more beautiful than »speak« because indicates that they listen to each other, understand each other.


How can it be that some word in the verse is not important??
I'm beginning to think that the only possible understanding is that "people all over the word hear the Slavs" (сыны всего мира слышат Славию).

As I have already told you, Славия is associated with both Slavs and glory. However without explanation this Russian phrase is absolutely unclear, nobody will get the point of it (let alone the very idea of inscribing oneself).



> The word _Slavs_ comes from the word _slovo_ - The Slavs used that word for each other, because they understood each other's _slovo _- the spoken languages.
> It probably doesn't come form "glory".



Slavs < slovo is wrong according to Max Vasmer, because suffix -ěninъ (as in Proto-Slavic *slověninъ) was used only in the derivatives from the toponyms (cf. Slovutich, Sɫаwiса).

However there is no doubts about etymology of _sláva _(слава, glory). It has the same root as _slovo _(thru славить - _pohvale_) and therefore is not connected with Slavs.


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## grinski

My try:
1. И сонмы отроков язык славян услышат.

2. И слышат отроки славянской славы глас.

3. Внимают отроки славянским языкам.

However "more context" would be better. Translate all 4 lines in the verse and point the emphasis in every line, please, so that we could hear the meter.


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## Maroseika

Link to the original was given earlier. But why отроки you think? Do not _sveta otrokom_ mean just дети мира = люди мира = люди?


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## grinski

Well, let's read every line word by word and not as they were given in the "loose translation". 



> Do not _sveta otrokom mean just дети мира = люди мира = люди?_


How could I know?


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## Maroseika

grinski said:


> Well, let's read every line word by word and not as they were given in the "loose translation".


OK, let's. And what's the conclusion?



> How could I know?


Somehow you should know if translate it as отрок.


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## grinski

> OK, let's. And what's the conclusion?



All we need is a few lines properly translated as I have said already.



> Somehow you should know if translate it as отрок.


No, I shouldn't because I don't have to provide the context, it is a task of Maurichette.

BTW, отрок may be translated as acolyte or even slave according to the Dal dictionary. Slovenian "otrok" may have different connotations than Russian otrok...


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## LilianaB

If the Slovenian word _slava_ in this poem is ambiguous it has to be translated into an equally ambiguous, and in the same way ambiguous word in Russian, if possible. Poetry is often intentionally ambiguous.


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## Maroseika

grinski said:


> All we need is a few lines properly translated as I have said already.


I thought proper translation is exactly what the topicstarter wanted from us.




> No, I shouldn't because I don't have to provide the context, it is a task of Maurichette.



Anyway, it is already provided. I'm afraid I cannot notice there any hint at сонм отроков. But it would very interesting to know from Maurichette what _otrok _means or meant in Slovenian. At least it's quite evident for me that neither slaves nor acolytes have anything to do with all that.


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## NiNulla

Maurichette said:


> Hey!
> 
> I have problems with the word "удѣлъ" in the sentence "Обширенъ долженъ быть удѣлъ славянъ!" I think it's archaic and cant find the proper translation.
> 
> Thanks to any russian expert for help!


"Обширенъ долженъ быть удѣлъ славянъ!" 
В этой фразе я понимаю "удел" как "владения", а сам смысл ее заключается в том, что славяне имеют право или должны захватить обширные территории, распространить свое влияние как можно дальше.


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## grinski

> I thought proper translation is exactly what the topicstarter wanted from us.


Of course, that's why we need proper translation into *English *to start with.



> Anyway, it is already provided. I'm afraid I cannot notice there any hint at сонм отроков. But it would very interesting to know from Maurichette what otrok means or meant in Slovenian. At least it's quite evident for me that neither slaves nor acolytes have anything to do with all that.



If Maurichette wants to get metric line in Russian with iambic or any other rhythm we should know more and in the end we will take liberty to insert necessary words close in style (like сонм, or poetic many) or take away unnecessary words since it is possible in literary translation of poems.

NiNulla, I suspect the poet was a proponent of pan-slavism.


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## Sobakus

How about this:

На целый свет уж Славия гремит - The whole world rings with Slavia(Fame/Glory)

_Слава гремит_ is an idiomatic expression, _уж_ is both "already" and an intensifier.


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## NiNulla

Sobakus said:


> How about this:
> 
> На целый свет уж Славия гремит - The whole world rings with Slavia(Fame/Glory)
> 
> _Слава гремит_ is an idiomatic expression, _уж_ is both "already" and an intensifier.


Сразу вспомнилось "звенит слава в Киеве". Извините за оффтоп, не могу удержаться от того, чтоб дать ссылку на перевод академика Лихачева. Может быть, он даст какую-то пищу для размышлений над переводом. 


> Так бы петь песнь Игорю, того внуку: «Не буря соколов занесла через поля широкие — стаи галок несутся к Дону великому». Или так пел бы ты, вещий Боян, внук Велеса: «Кони ржут за Сулой — звенит слава в Киеве!»
> Трубы трубят в Новгороде, стоят стяги в Путивле, Игорь ждет милого брата Всеволода. И сказал ему Буй-Тур Всеволод: «Один брат, один свет светлый — ты, Игорь! Оба мы Святославичи! Седлай же, брат, своих борзых коней, а мои готовы, уже оседланы у Курска. А мои куряне бывалые воины: под трубами повиты, под шлемами взлелеяны, с конца копья вскормлены; пути им ведомы, яруги известны, луки у них натянуты, колчаны открыты, сабли наточены. Сами скачут, как серые волки в поле, ища себе чести, а князю — славы».


http://old-ru.ru/03-1-4.html


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## Maurichette

I'm sorry if I'm not as clear as I should be. I'm trying my best.
So the translation doesn't need to be »poetic«, it can be word-by-word, if it's not possible to be accurate otherwise. So above all I want it to be exact and as close to original as possible. My intention is to put it in Russian but to perserve as much as possible the original, even if it doesn't sound as beautiful as it could.

However, I love some parts that all of you have offered, so I would like to include these words (of course in proper declinations and conjugations)

мир (the world) 
отроки (the children) – or any other word meaning _the children_ 
слава (the glory) – even though it's not correct, because it is purposely »wrong« in the original! (LilianaB, you are totally right).

MAROSEIKA:
All the words are important. But for  the understanding it is not crucial that it says _children_ instead of _people_, _hear_ instad of _speak_. You can understand it one way or another. But in the translation I would prefer _children_ and _hear._


GRINSKI (that's a beautiful username, btw):

Here is another translation in Russian from a book. It may help you to get some context, if you are trying to make a very good translation, but as I said, it can be word-by-word.

Обширенъ долженъ быть удѣлъ славянъ!
Себѣ пріють найдсмъ въ краю далекомъ,
Гдѣ нашъ законъ не будстъ ужъ попранъ.

The underlined letters are stressed:
_Največ sveta otrokom sliši Slave,_
tje bomo našli pot, kjer nje sinovi
si prosti vol'jo vero in postave.

So every second syllable in stressed (Iambic metre), except in one word, »bomo«.

I don't have the English translation, but I can explain the context in few words. There are poganists fighting against the Christians, who want to take over the land. The poganists hide in a castle, the Christians surround them and after few months the poganists run out of food ... So their leader (Črtomir) gives a speech. He tells them: » Whoever wants to surrender, may do it. He will live, but will be a slave till the end of his days. I invite the rest of you, who don't want to submit to the enemy, with me. We will take them over in the middle of this stormy night, which is our last chance.
_The  Slavic nations are spread all over the world. _ We will find our place where the sons of the Slavs are allowed to choose their faith and authority freely. But if the gods make us die, it is less dreadful to be buried in the dark ground, than to be a slave under the bright sun!«
Nobody abandones him... They go into the fight, every brave man dies, except for Črtomir, who manages to escape...
(In the end he is baptized at the Savica falls to be able to live with his beloved one in the afterlife. She got baptized during his fights, because a priest promised that the God will save his man.)


THE REST OF THE PEOPLE WHO REPLIED:

You are replying too fast for me!!  I have to take time to go through all the translations (with my poor knowledge of Russian which is limited to the words that are the same as in Slovenian and additionally by the cyrillic!) so I will reply later! THANK YOU VERY MUCH EVERYBODY!! I'm flattered to see how many people are willing to help.


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## LilianaB

Пусть весь мир услышит Славу, maybe. 
Пусть все дети мира услышат Славу


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## Maroseika

LilianaB said:


> Пусть весь мир услышит Славу, maybe.
> Пусть все дети мира услышат Славу



Который живет на крыше?


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## LilianaB

The one who lives _на крыше_, it was Karlson. You can say Славян, if you want to disambiguate it. Пусть весь мир услышит Славян.


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## Maroseika

LilianaB said:


> The one who lives _на крыше_, it was Karlson.


No, it was Слава КПСС.


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## LilianaB

For me he will always be Karlsson. But this is not the subject of this thread. So he was Slava for you and Karlsson for me.


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## Maurichette

LilianaB:

I love this one: Пусть все дети мира услышат Славу

As I said, I'd like it to be as exact as possible. So is it possible to leave out the »Пусть – Let (all the children...)« and change »все« into an expression meaning »most (of the children)« ?

That would be perfect!

May I also ask who is this Karlsson or Slava, because I haven't got a clue what you are talking about ?

Sobakus:

На целый свет уж Славия гремит

You said that _Слава гремит_ is an idiomatic expression, what is its exact meaning ?

The other propositions are beautiful, but I need an exact one. If it is necessary, at the cost of rythm.


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## Maroseika

Maurichette said:


> LilianaB:
> 
> I love this one: Пусть все дети мира услышат Славу



Combination of дети and Слава which is diminutive of Станислав (and some other names on -слав) sounds like a poem for the kindergarten. 
Карлсон is from the tale. He lived on the roof.
Слава КПСС is also a person who used to live on roofs in the USSR.


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## gvozd

Maurichette said:


> LilianaB:
> 
> I love this one: Пусть все дети мира услышат Славу



Sorry but I couldn't help to remark. It's a meaningless and ridiculous phrase.


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## LilianaB

I think, you are better off with _весь мир услышит Славян_, if people don't understand _Славу_ the right way. Meanings change. Apparently for many people from Russia, Славa, would first of all be a first name of a guy. Like Yaroslav, or some other names ending with slav, Viatcheslav. For me this really would be the best phrase as a translation of this line, especially if you want it for a tattoo.

Bсе дети мира услышат Слав_ян - _would be another good phrase, wihtout the Пусть. With _Slava_ people may really have to know the poem to understand it as _the Slavic people _or _Slavic languages_, otherwise they would take it to mean some guy whose name ends with slav.


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## lollollol

Maurichette said:


> _Največ sveta otrokom sliši Slave,_
> tje bomo našli pot, kjer nje sinovi
> si prosti vol'jo vero in postave.


Hi,

*Maybe it would help all of us if you could list us not just the meanings of all the words, but also their grammatical roles and requirements (case, tense, etc)? Thank you!*

I have a guess that the word "otrokom" is either Instrumental or Dative (I believe, Instrumental), "otrok" is Nominative, "sveta" is Genitive, and the word "največ", like the Russian "большинство", requires Genitive. If so, then the original phrase (not the simplified variant that you made  ) makes sense in your context: "In the major part of the world Slavic may be heard by people", "In the great part of the world people may hear Slavic speech" ("so we may try and find a place where other Slavic people dwell"). (It's far not the same as "The majority of the world's people may hear Slavic", the statement that never was true and that doesn't fit the context at all).

 If I guessed (guessed!) right, then a close Russian translation would be "Есть много мест, где сынам людей слышна славянская речь" (less literally "По всем краям речь Славии слышна"). The second variant is metrical, but I personally like more the first variant, that sounds more wise, balanced, unhurried and measured (I think, because it's closer to the original, and the author of the original was probably a wise person  ).

Though, on the other hand, we can't provide a very-very close and word-by-word translation without knowing all the nuances of the word "največ", archaic nuances as well as modern ones.

Regards!

*LilianaB,*

I think you are the only person (now and always) who hears "Пусть все дети мира услышат Славу!" the "right" way.  The rest of Russian speaking people would hear it in the different way, absolutely. 

Regards!


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## lollollol

Another guess: 

Везде сынов славянских речь слышна,
В тот край дорогу мы найти смогли бы,
Где вольны будем избирать закон и веру.

("The Slavic speech is heard everywhere / We might find a way to the land / Where we'll be free to choose ourselves our law and faith")


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## LilianaB

Yes, maybe without the poem I would understand it also as _Let all the children of world hear Slav_(Viatcheslav, or Yaroslav or another person whose name ends with slav). The only thing is that Maurichetta wanted some ambiguity -- to use a word which would mean both Glory and the Slavs, or Slavic languages. It will be safer to replace it with Slavs. 

In fact I like: По всем краям речь Славии слышна. It sounds very nice and is close to the original.

Why сынов славянских ? I thought the children were the children of all other nations? In fact, it really would be great if somebody who speaks Slovenian very well translated it first either into Russian or English, so it can get worked on more. Maurichetta did translate it into English and I think the children are not the Slavic children but children of the world.   

As to the slogan on the roof, not too many people who have lived in other countries for years would think about it. In Russia, maybe. I even did a small poll. (3 people asked) None would think about it instantaneously.


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## lollollol

LilianaB said:


> In fact I like: По всем краям речь Славии слышна. It sounds very nice and is close to the original.


Yes, the only thing is that I don't like the word "Славия". It doesn't exist in Russian, in fact, and, being invented, sounds too "валеночно-патриотически"  .

[OT](By the way, I can't help wondering why that Russian translation of the first post is written in the old orthography. It belongs to the modern language (though stylistically coloured), and all the "ъ" should not be pronounced, because otherwise the meter loses. Also, as far as I understand, the iambic meter is a relatively new invention in Russian poetry).[/OT]


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## LilianaB

I like it, even if it is not a standard expression. Poets experiment with  language.


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## Maurichette

Thanks for pointing out (gvozd, Marosika, lollollol) that the word-by-word translation doesn't make sense. And thank you, LilianaB, for fulfilling my wishes by writing exactly what I wanted.
This is something only a real Russian can distinguish, so I appretiate it.

So if we take this sentence: Пусть все дети мира услышат Славу and put Славa into plural or some other case than Accusative – it is not correct, but still – does it still sound like a man's name ?
And, is it possible to avoid the word дети, which also makes it childish ?
And why could I switch Славу with Славян – doesn't the second one stand for a person ?

Slovenian version is not understandable without an explanation either. It was ment this way to avoid the censorship. (So the Russian can be incorrrect too, but shouldn't sound childish.) Namely, some cases and tenses are incorrect.  lollollol guessed them right:

*Največ* (большинство) requires Genitive
*sveta* (свeт) is in Genitive, so the first two words are correct.
*otrokom* (дети) is in plural and Dative so its incorrect – should be in Genitive (children OF the world)
*sliši* (услышать) is in singular, tense is Present, which is fine, because "Največ sveta otrokom" requires singular.
*Slave* (Славa) is in singular and Genitiv or plural and Nominative: it is not clear which one, but either was it is incorrect. If it was correct – Slavo (Accusative) it would mean they listen to a woman called Slava.

Your translation in English and Russian is correct. But the first sentence is too long. Can you change По всем краям in the second ? I like it otherwise.
»Največ« is not archaic. It simply means »the most, the biggest part, the majority«.

LilianaB, the children are the children of all nations of the world, you are right. So the third translation of lollollol is not as good – and I only need the first verse, so you don't have to take trouble with the other two.


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## Maroseika

Maurichette said:


> So if we take this sentence: Пусть все дети мира услышат Славу and put Славa into plural or some other case than Accusative – it is not correct, but still – does it still sound like a man's name ?



Слава in such context can be interpreted only one way - as the name of a guy. And no association with Slavs.

По всем краям is not good, because Plural is very untypical for край in teh sense of 'land".

По всей Земле речь Славии слышна seems the most adequate to the original sense. However can you clarify this: 


> sliši (услышат) is in singular, tense is Present


Услышат is not Present, but Future. And what tense is in the original? If also Future, it would be"
По всей Земле речь Славии услышат.


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## LilianaB

If you want it to be a little bit ambiguous as it is in the original you could say: весь мир услышит Славу. I asked three people, native speakers, who have been out of Russia for more than 10 years, and two of them said that it would be understood as Slavic languages or language, or the Slavic people, first of all. One said it would be heard as a male name, a male name only, so the choice is yours.


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## Maurichette

Maroseika, it is definitely in Present, not in Future. I made a mistake.

I like *весь мир услышит Славу* because it's short and firm. But once again, is it possible to put Славу into different case or change it into a different word, which maybe doesn't even exist, to avoid being understood as a name ?
The same thing is namely done in the original (if correct, it would be a woman's name Slava).

По всей Земле речь Славии слышна - can речь be switched with гoлос or something else (the sound of the word речь doesn't please me) ? I like this one too otherwise. lollollol said Славия is newly invented - so what's the exact meaning here ?


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## LilianaB

На весь мир Слава будет слышна.


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## Maroseika

Maurichette said:


> I like *весь мир услышит Славу* because it's short and firm. But once again, is it possible to put Славу into different case or change it into a different word, which maybe doesn't even exist, to avoid being understood as a name ?
> The same thing is namely done in the original (if correct, it would be a woman's name Slava).



I bet no native will ever guess that Слава is somehow connected with Slavs. Serious natives will ask - whose Glory the world hears, unserious ones will ask who is this Слава and what is his full name. But Slavs? Never.
Letting alone that слышать славу is wrong ro at least very strange word combination.





> По всей Земле речь Славии слышна - can речь be switched with гoлос or something else (the sound of the word речь doesn't please me) ? I like this one too otherwise. lollollol said Славия is newly invented - so what's the exact meaning here ?


You may change it to whatever you want (голос слышен), I just cannot understand, why don't you like the title variant? Обширенъ долженъ быть удѣлъ славянъ! It reflects the authors idea best of all.


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## Котелок

Hello all,


Maroseika said:


> I just cannot understand, why don't you like the title variant? Обширенъ долженъ быть удѣлъ славянъ! It reflects the authors idea best of all.


Are you sure? Maurichette said the verse means "Slavic nations are spread all over the world" (in Russian something like "Есть много мест, где сынам людей слышна славянская речь", as she confirmed) and it's very good in her context (#24). Definitely, it is very different from "Slavic nations should be spread all over the world"!


Maurichette said:


> lollollol ... Your translation in English and Russian is correct. But the first sentence is too long. Can you change По всем краям in the second ? I like it otherwise.
> »Največ« is not archaic. It simply means »the most, the biggest part, the majority«.
> 
> LilianaB, the children are the children of all nations of the world, you are right. So the third translation of lollollol is not as good – and I only need the first verse, so you don't have to take trouble with the other two.


Maurichette, lollollol's second and third translations actually mean absolutely the same, she or he just replaced "Славии" (Genitive, "[of] the land of Slavs", "[of] the world of Slavs", some dubious «patriotical» appeal is indeed present in the word) with "славянских сынов" (Genitive too, "[of] the Slavic people"), replaced "по всем краям" with "везде" (I second it!) and changed a bit the word order, what's different in them is only their attitude (he seemed to dislike the word "Славия" and the expression "по всем краям", so she replaced both of them); and yes, neither of these translations is literal (and I would say, the third looks closer in attitude to the original as you described the original). So, if you consider only factual meanings, you can't like one and dislike another; and both of them don't meet your need for a literal translation.

On the other hand, how could you find a literal translation for a verse, that, according to your claim, is simply grammatically incorrect, and so we don't know what precisely is meant (not only factually, but also «internally»)?

Anyway, you *can't* put the word «слава» in the translation, because the word «слава» may mean only two things as Maroseika indicated: 1) "glory" and 2) a diminutive male (or, less likely, female) name (maybe "дядя Слава" or a boy called "Слава" etc).
Some of LilianaB's translations were very-very funny, like "let the children of the world hear what Slava says" ("Пусть все дети мира услышат Славу", Slava is a boy too) and "People all over the world will hear what Slava says" (exactly "весь мир услышит Славу"  ).


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## Maroseika

Maurichette said:


> Slave (Славa) is in singular and Genitiv or plural and Nominative: it is not clear which one, but either was it is incorrect. If it was correct – Slavo (Accusative) it would mean they listen to a woman called Slava.


It makes sense, actually, that Slave looks like a woman, because the next line says: ...kjer nje sinovi (her sons). So Slava is she and she has sons, who will either spread vastly or at least find other Slavs. 

Največ sveta otrokom sliši Slave, 
Sons of the Slavic nation (=Slava) are heard in the most part of the world.

On the other hand, this phrase Обширенъ долженъ быть удѣлъ славянъ! can be understood doubly:

1. Direct manner: Slavs must live all over the world (Должно быть, удел славян обширен, так что нам удастся найти место, где мы могли продолжать поклоняться нашим поганым богам).
2. Figurative manner: Slavs will spread spaciously.

Обширен должен быть удел славян!
Себе приют найдем в краю далеком,
Где наш закон не будет уж попран.

This is good Russian, unlike most part of other attempts, it's poetic and even ambigious - what can be better for such a strange thing as tatoo?


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## Котелок

Maroseika said:


> It makes sense, actually, that Slave looks like a woman, because the next line says: ...kjer nje sinovi (her sons). So Slava is she and she has sons, who will either spread vastly or at least find other Slavs.
> 
> Največ sveta otrokom sliši Slave,
> Sons of the Slavic nation (=Slava) are heard in the most part of the world.
> 
> On the other hand, this phrase Обширенъ долженъ быть удѣлъ славянъ! can be understood doubly:
> 
> 1. Direct manner: Slavs must live all over the world (Должно быть, удел славян обширен, так что нам удастся найти место, где мы могли продолжать поклоняться нашим поганым богам).
> 2. Figurative manner: Slavs will spread spaciously.
> 
> Обширен должен быть удел славян!
> Себе приют найдем в краю далеком,
> Где наш закон не будет уж попран.
> 
> This is good Russian, unlike most part of other attempts, it's poetic and even ambigious - what can be better for such a strange thing as tatoo?


Maroseika, why the sentence "Обширен должен быть славян удел" sounds for me as a nationalistic statement like "Slavs should rule over a great part of the world" (that is, ruling over great lands is their destination or something like that)? Yes, I hear it in the way indicated by you as #1 too, and indeed this is the intended meaning of the translator, but when the sentence is alone, or when there is as little context as we have, then the only really heard meaning is "Slavs should rule over a great part of the world", that is quite different from the original.


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## Maroseika

Котелок said:


> Maroseika, why the sentence "Обширен должен быть славян удел" sounds for me as a nationalistic statement like "Slavs should rule over a great part of the world"



Maybe because it means exactly that?


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## LilianaB

Котелок said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Some of LilianaB's translations were very-very funny, like "let the children of the world hear what Slava says" ("Пусть все дети мира услышат Славу", Slava is a boy too) and "People all over the world will hear what Slava says" (exactly "весь мир услышит Славу"  ).



Hello, Котелок. Unfortunately, my translations do not say anything about any little boy saying anything. They just say that _Glory_ or _Slava_ in Russian will be heard all over the world. It is true that the word Slava is first of all associated with a male nickname in Russian, before anything else. This is the first thing that comes to many peoples' minds. There isn't anything about saying anything: Slava could be whistling. It could also be a female name in Russian, so Slava can really be a woman and a personifiction of Glory and mother of the Slavic people at the same time. There is a female singer, quite popular in Russia, whose nickname is Slava.


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## Maurichette

There are so many different opinions, it's hard to decide. (Anyway, I am glad there are many, cause I need a clear idea.)

I have to decide whether to believe LilianaB (and her 2 friends), who believes Славa can refer to Slavic (nations, people etc.) and the others who don't.

The thing is: if you ask Slovenians about the original, they say that without a doubt _Slave_ means glory. They never say Slavic peoples, languages etc. Even when knowing the context and reading the whole poem. But they don't understand the verse, because it doesn't make much sense. When you explain it, they say its logical. This is because the use of word _Slava_ that way is not usual, but because it sounds similar, it makes sense. They agree it  sounds beautiful. The exceptions to this rule are only people, who read a lot of poetry and are used to this kind of play on words, ambiguity...

So I would like to hear the opinion of the people who are keen on poetry... Because it's possible that they are more susceptible to this.

Maroseika said: »Serious natives will ask - whose Glory the world hears, unserious ones will ask who is this Слава and what is his full name.« Is it possible that the people who are keen on poetry think differently on the subject ?
(слышать славу is incorrect, there is no doubt about it, if said in the everyday language...)

*Котелок*, welcome to the forum.
so Обширенъ долженъ быть удѣлъ славянъ! means that we should be spread over the world ? It means I can't use it because it's not what it is supposed to mean.

»...and so we don't know what precisely is meant (not only factually, but also «internally»)?« The sentence is incorrect, but we know exactly what it means. It is incorrect grammatically, but can be changed into a sentence with no mistakes and ambiguity. Completely literally it means: The most of the children of the world listen to the Slavic languages.« Therefore: The Slavic peoples represent the majority of the world's nations. (It is not true though.)

Or, as *Maroseika *pointed out brilliantly:

»Slave looks like a woman, because the next line says: ...kjer nje sinovi (her sons)«
and
»Sons of the Slavic nation (=Slava) are heard in the most part of the world.«

And on *Котелок*'s opinion on lollollol's translations:

the second: По всем краям речь Славии слышна
the third: Везде сынов славянских речь слышна

»Maurichette, lollollol's second and third translations actually mean absolutely the same«

You are right, I thought сынов славянских means something else, but you are absolutely right. I think that По всем краям is too many words which say too little... I'd like the sentence to be short, firm and strong, and also somewhat powerful. (And of course, it needs to sound nicely.)

And yes, I am a little bit perplexed. I like a lot of translations. But every time I like one somebody comes on this page and says it is incorrect, ridiculous and so on.


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## LilianaB

I think I like another one: На весь мир речь Славии слышна. If Славии is a new word, it does not matter, if it makes sense and is less ambiguous than Slava, which would first of all be a nickname. If people still do not understand it right, it means this methaphore is not accessible to them and I would not worry that much. Most of poetry is not understood by all people.


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## Котелок

LilianaB said:


> I think I like another one: На весь мир речь Славии слышна.


Not bad, I think... Slightly nationalistic and quite boastful (regarding the use of the expressions "На весь мир" and "Славия"), but then mr. Preseren was indeed a panslavist. Of course, this translation does not fit very well the context of narration (the chief isn't boasting, he's thinking what to do and is there a place where the tribe could live well in peace), but when taken alone, it's not bad, in my opinion.

The official variant "Обширен должен быть удел славян" sounds much more beautiful, but its meaning is further from the original than the meaning of your verse, as we found out.

"Везде сынов славянских речь слышна" sounds smoother (or, rather, less boastful) for me.


> If Славии is a new word, it does not matter, if it makes sense and ...


Of course, the fact the word is new doesn't matter that much itself. But there are new words and new words...


> ... is less ambiguous than Slava, which would first of all be a nickname.


As for the word "Слава", actually it is not ambiguous at all when written. I unequivocally read it as a name of a person (without any second thought!) because of the first capital letter. If it was written "слава", then it would mean (again, without any ambiguity and without any second thought) "glory".


> If people still do not understand it right,


As for the neologism "Славия", it is understood unequivocally by Russians («the land of Slavs»/«the world of Slavs»), so this is not a problem.


> Most of poetry is not understood by all people.


A side remark of mine: many people don't seek to understand poetry (the will of theirs, and absolutely no blame!), but this doesn't mean poetry is allowed to be not understandable at all and by anyone. People who actually seek to understand poetry are usually able to. So, if nobody understands a poem, then the poem is probably stupid. Poetry may be "silly", but it may not be stupid.
Not the case with your latest variant of translation of the verse, though. It does make sense.

*Maurichette*, there is no way in Russian to understand the word "Слава" as "народ(ы) славян", absolutely — in poetry as well as in common life. 
Also, the Russian name "Слава", either female or male, is informal (it is indeed a nickname for people with names like "Вячеслов", "Владислава" etc), so in Russian (unlike in Slovenian, as I see) it can't reasonably be the mother of Slavs as well.


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## LilianaB

I am glad, that maybe finally we agreed on something, because it is hard to change tattoos. First of all Marurichette has to like it. As for poetry, I think many people are not interested in it, the way I have absolutely no interest in certain games, so I am not even trying to understand what is going on on the field.


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## Sobakus

Maurichette said:


> I think that По всем краям is too many words which say too little... I'd like the sentence to be short, firm and strong, and also somewhat powerful. (And of course, it needs to sound nicely.)



The problem is that the only word similar to _največ_ - большинство - sounds quite official, heavy and is hard to pronounce too, so we have to come up with longer stuff, and longer stuff sounds better when it's "all" instead of "most of". I suggest you go with *LilianaB*'s latest variant, change _речь Славии слышна_ for _слышен голос Славии_ if you don't like the sound of the word and want to personify Slavia somewhat.


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## Maurichette

Sobakus said:


> I suggest you go with *LilianaB*'s latest variant, change _речь Славии слышна_ for _слышен голос Славии_ if you don't like the sound of the word and want to personify Slavia somewhat.



Can I change it to

На весь мир глас Славии слышен

and how does it sound like ? I think _голос_ would change the rythm, is that right ?


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## Maroseika

Maurichette said:


> Can I change it to
> 
> На весь мир глас Славии слышен
> 
> and how does it sound like ?



It sounds awful - like Славия голосит на весь мир. 

By the way, can you explain what exactly result you want to achieve? Translate Presheren or elaborate beautiful panslavic adage or what?


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## Maurichette

Maroseika said:


> It sounds awful - like Славия голосит на весь мир.
> 
> By the way, can you explain what exactly result you want to achieve? Translate Presheren or elaborate beautiful panslavic adage or what?



As we found out it's impossible to translate it _and _keep it nearly as accurate and beautiful as the original, I'm afraid we have to renounce it. Many of you made great attempts so I'd like to thank you for your time and effort, especially Maroseika, lollollol, LilianaB and Котелок.


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## LilianaB

I would leave _речь _because than it is something linguistic and nice. It sounds sort of Biblical: _Go and inhabit the earth_. Slavic languages wil  be heard all over the world, without saying that anybody has to listen to the Slavic prophecy or something like that.


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## grinski

Look like Slavia is used among Western and Balkan Slavs, still it isn't a neologism or the translator's whim...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavia_(disambiguation)


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