# come le spazzole di una testa rognosa



## Bartelby2018

Ciao a tutti, mi potreste aiutare con la frase seguente? Per contesto, un'autista sta descrivendo la sua entrata a Roma:

Originale: "E finalmente c'era un unico infinito palazzo che attraversava tutta la città diramandosi dappertutto *come le spazzole di una testa rognosa*."

Prova mia: "And finally, there was a single, infinite palazzo that traversed the entire city, *spreading over it like* *a brush over a head of tangled hair.*" (oppure "...spreading over it like a hairbrush over a head of rats' nests")

È che non capsico bene a che si referiscono "le spazzole." Quando lo lego io, potrebbe essere sia la mia prova che qualcos'altra (per esempio, potrebee essere che "le spazzole" sia un eufanismo per dei capelli rognsoi). Grazie di antemano, ragazzi!


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## theartichoke

My guess would be that the _spazzole_ are_ tufts of hair on a scabby head. _But I'm not a native speaker, so I'm curious to see what they say.


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## ohbice

Tendo a concordare con theartichoke su ciuffi di capelli, magari non su una scabby head. Per quanto mi sembri un uso piuttosto strano.


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## johngiovanni

Secondo _Treccani, p_er estensione "spazzola" può significare "ciuffo di peli". If "rognosa" means "scruffy, mangy, scabby", then perhaps "clumps" rather than "tufts", "clump" being one of the WR suggestions for "ciuffo".


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## ohbice

_Rognosa _qui per me ha solo il senso figurato di "difficili da pettinare". Vedi _rogna _nel wr dictionary.


*rogna* _nf__figurato, familiare_ (incombenza odiosa)pain, pest _n_(_UK, Ire, AU, vulgar_)pain in the arse _n_(_US, Can, vulgar_)pain in the ass _n_Questo lavoro è proprio una rogna._This task is a real pain (or:  pest)._


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## alfaalfa

Ciao,
sei sicur* di aver scritto correttamente la frase originale? Forse capendo bene il primo termine del paragone (io non capisco il significato di "unico infinito palazzo che attraversava tutta la città diramandosi dappertutto" riferito a Roma) si riesce a capire bene anche il resto.


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## Bartelby2018

alfaalfa said:


> Ciao,
> sei sicur* di aver scritto correttamente la frase originale? Forse capendo bene il primo termine del paragone (io non capisco il significato di "unico infinito palazzo che attraversava tutta la città diramandosi dappertutto" riferito a Roma) si riesce a capire bene anche il resto.


Si, sono sicura, la frase è così. Pero sto d'accordo che il uso è molto strano! Un grande palazzo che si estende per la città mi appare una cosa singolare e molto distinto dai ciuffi sparsi di capelli...


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## johngiovanni

I guess it is all very subjective. We can only try to translate what we read.  Do we agree that "rognosa" is rather negative?


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## Starless74

johngiovanni said:


> Do we agree that "rognosa" is rather negative?


Yes.

I also agree with Bartelby2018 in #7 when he says the idea of "one big building branching through the whole city"
is quite different from that of "clumps" or "tufts" which is reminescent of different smaller buildings scattered across an area.
The problem definitely lies in the original sentence.


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## ohbice

Io invece credo che la metafora funzioni. Dipende dalla scala con cui guardi le cose.


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## Haltona

If one imagines the "unico infinito palazzo che attraversava tutta la città" as the whole city, then the single buildings might look like _tufts of hair on a scabby head_. As metaphors go, it's quite awkward and obscure.
_And there it was, that endless single palace, sprawled over the entire city like tufts of hair on a scabby head_ is my, possibly lame, attempt at translation.


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## Starless74

Haltona said:


> As metaphors go, it's quite awkward and obscure


That was my point too. And now I'll shut up. I promise.  😇


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## esky

Bartelby2018 said:


> "E finalmente c'era un unico infinito palazzo che attraversava tutta la città diramandosi dappertutto *come le spazzole di una testa rognosa*."


"And, finally, there was a single, infinite _palazzo_ that ran through the entire city, *branching out everywhere like* *a medusa".*

or 
* ...branching out everywhere like unruly hair.*

I am usually adamant about "adding" words to a translation, but in the end, it's all about conveying the right meaning in the closest best way possible. It really depends on how well the source text is written, and if the expression, simile, metaphor, etc.   has a specific use — or if it's just there because it's convenient.

Meow.


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## ohbice

In questi tempi in cui il Caravaggio tracima da ogni angolo, col direttore degli Uffizi che si fa intervistare con sullo sfondo la medusa, e perfino il paesello mio che celebra in questa calda estate la figura del Caravaggio con una mostra sulle fotografie delle di lui opere, la metafora della medusa mi è insopportabile (è decisamente un problema mio, mi scuso con Esky). 
Unruly hair però mi piace


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## Haltona

esky said:


> "And, finally, there was a single, infinite _palazzo_ that ran through the entire city, *branching out everywhere like* *a medusa".*
> 
> or
> * ...branching out everywhere like unruly hair.*
> 
> I am usually adamant about "adding" words to a translation, but in the end, it's all about conveying the right meaning in the closest best way possible. It really depends on how well the source text is written, and if the expression, simile, metaphor, etc.   has a specific use — or if it's just there because it's convenient.
> 
> Meow.


I don't think this works with the rest of the paragraph. The image the author tries to convey is of an ugly, dirty and hostile place, with parked cars that looked like mummified dogs and front doors tauntingly gaping, closed shops and greasy shutters:


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## esky

Haltona said:


> I don't think this works with the rest of the paragraph. The image the author tries to convey is of an ugly, dirty and hostile place, with parked cars that looked like mummified dogs and front doors tauntingly gaping, closed shops and greasy shutters:
> 
> View attachment 73423





Haltona said:


> I don't think this works with the rest of the paragraph.



You don't say! 🤓

Context is everything. And that was my point, too. The humanizing and animal-like metaphors obviously set the tone, so now the _palazzo becomes _something more in line with the rest of the text. 

A questo punto potrebbero sembrare delle vere e proprie spazzole per capelli, specialmente per il fatto che si dirama per la città. Strutture a forme di spazzole, il corpo principale con denti che "pettinano" la città.  In pratica, le spazzole vanno ad agire sulla testa rognosa (Roma). Chissà.

... there was a single, infinite _palazzo_ that ran through the entire city, *branching out/scattered everywhere like hair brushes for an unruly head of hair.*



Adesso che ci penso, per questa alliterazione

*"attraversava tutta la città diramandosi dappertutto..." *

forse è meglio

*spread out everywhere like hair brushes for an unruly head of hair.*



Contextual meow.


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## Haltona

esky said:


> A questo punto potrebbero sembrare delle vere e proprie spazzole per capelli, specialmente per il fatto che si dirama per la città. Strutture a forme di spazzole, il corpo principale con denti che "pettinano" la città.  In pratica, le spazzole vanno ad agire sulla testa rognosa (Roma). Chissà.


No. This really doesn't make any sense. And a "testa rognosa" under no circumstances can be rendered with "an unruly head of hair".


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## You little ripper!

I'm not sure I still understand what is trying to be conveyed here, but translating it literally does not make sense in English. If the sense is that of being spread out in an unruly fashion, Australians have an expression which goes: ......... _like a mad woman's washing! _We also have: ........ _like a dog's breakfast!_


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## esky

Haltona said:


> No. This really doesn't make any sense. And a "testa rognosa" under no circumstances can be rendered with "an unruly head of hair".



Let's see if you can understand why this is not very helpful. You did not give any explanations as to why it was incorrect.


Here's an example of me not being helpful: 



Haltona said:


> If one imagines the "unico infinito palazzo che attraversava tutta la città" as the whole city, then the single buildings might look like _tufts of hair on a scabby head_. As metaphors go, it's quite awkward and obscure.
> _And there it was, that endless single palace, sprawled over the entire city like tufts of hair on a scabby head_ is my, possibly lame, attempt at translation.



No. This really doesn't make any sense. "And there it was, that ....." is just plain wrong.

Sprawled over like tufts: under no circumstances is that good. The sense of "sprawling over" does not go well with "tufts".

________________________

Don't misunderstand me. I see your point, but this is a forum where the focus is on an exchange of ideas. Not opinions. This is why I like taking part in it.

Back to the real world:

I wanted to render the chaotic, confusing side of "rognoso", rather than the illness itself.

If it is, indeed, a mangy head, then it might be

... *spread out like/scattered like patches of hair on a mangy head.  *

mangy = more for the animal kingdom
scabby = more for humans

Disappointed meow (mange-free)


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## Haltona

You little ripper! said:


> I'm not sure I still understand what is trying to be conveyed here, but translating it literally does not make sense in English. If the sense is that of being spread out in an unruly fashion, Australians have an expression which goes: ......... _like a mad woman's washing! _We also have: ........ _like a dog's breakfast!_


As you can see from this discussion, even native Italians have problems understanding the sentence. Reading the whole paragraph gives a better idea of the atmosphere it wants to convey: a dead and dirty place, oppressive and slightly menacing, and in my opinion the translation should not stray too much from the original. _Testa rognosa_ is a mangy, scabby head, your colourful expressions are wonderful but they don't fit here.


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## Odysseus54

johngiovanni said:


> Secondo _Treccani, p_er estensione "spazzola" può significare "ciuffo di peli". If "rognosa" means "scruffy, mangy, scabby", then perhaps "clumps" rather than "tufts", "clump" being one of the WR suggestions for "ciuffo".



Treccani says : "Ciuffo di peli (_barbetta_) del nodello, che in alcuni cavalli di razze settentrionali scende da dietro agli stinchi fino a terra."  A very specific "ciuffo di peli", in the context of a very specialized language.  I had no idea until today what a 'nodello' is when it's at home, for instance, and I lived a happy and interesting life regardless.

'Spazzola', when used with 'capelli', means a type of crew cut where the hair of the top of the head is cut short and stands up vertically.  I think it's called 'flattop', it's the hair style Kurt Russell wears in 'Stargate'.  'Spazzola' in general conveys the idea of a clump of stiff bristles, that's why it's a bit hard to accept the metaphor.

Anyway, assuming that that's the exact text, I'd say ".. and finally there was a single, endless building that ran through the entire city spreading everywhere like the clumps of hair on a mangy head."

'Palazzo' here should not mean 'palace' = 'prestigious building', but simply 'building', as in 'palazzo di appartamenti'.  How a single, uninterrupted building can remind one of sparse clumps of hair, lo sapra' lui che lo scrive.


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## MR1492

Thanks, Ody! Here's a thought. I also wondered if the spazzola in question was a crewcut. That's what the WRF Dictionary says. So, perhaps rather than clumps of hair, the author was talking about an unending evenness of the apartment buildings (all of them standing at the same height) lined up like the hair of a crewcut.

He might have used rognoso to imply that the base of the buildings (and perhaps the city) was corrupt and "mangy" but the buildings themselves were just overly uniform and appeared to be everywhere in the city.

As I said, it's just a thought based on all the wonderful work that appears in the 21 preceeding posts.

Phil


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## esky

MR1492 said:


> Thanks, Ody! Here's a thought. I also wondered if the spazzola in question was a crewcut. That's what the WRF Dictionary says. So, perhaps rather than clumps of hair, the author was talking about an unending evenness of the apartment buildings (all of them standing at the same height) lined up like the hair of a crewcut.
> 
> He might have used rognoso to imply that the base of the buildings (and perhaps the city) was corrupt and "mangy" but the buildings themselves were just overly uniform and appeared to be everywhere in the city.
> 
> As I said, it's just a thought based on all the wonderful work that appears in the 21 preceeding posts.
> 
> Phil


That's a very interesting take, @MR1492 

It's true, WRF Dictionary says: "*a* spazzola". In fact, I've only heard it used that way.

— Conosci Esky?
— Si, è quello con i *capelli a spazzola.*

I'm not sure if that's what the author was going for.
The fact that this part of the sentence is open to interpretation means that the author is a really good writer, or that he/she/etc.  was really pushing the envelope here.

I like the idea of the buildings at he same height, but maybe the tone here is more decadent, wouldn't you say?

Meow.


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## Starless74

MR1492 said:


> perhaps rather than clumps of hair, the author was talking about an unending evenness of the apartment buildings (all of them standing at the same height) lined up like the hair of a crewcut.


...which, again, makes "_...di una testa rognosa_" an unnecessary and somewhat misleading whim, IMHO.

Incidentally, the simile with a crew-cut could have been: _*spazzola*_ (singular) at the most;
_le spazzole di *una* testa_ still makes no sense to me.
(OK, I said I would stop.  )


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## Pietruzzo

To me, according to the author's metaphor,  the buildings in Rome look like a pile of dirty hair brushes used by a guy with scabs on their scalp.


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## MR1492

Pietruzzo said:


> To me, according to the author's metaphor,  the buildings in Rome look like a pile of dirty hair brushes used by a guy with scabs on their scalp.



I will have a hard time getting this image out of my mind. I just wish I had not read it so close to dinner time.

Phil


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## johngiovanni

Just to say that to me, a non-native, the crew cut idea (_capelli a spazzola_, singular _spazzola _in the Italian expression which means crew cut, and the idea of _uniformity_)  and the dirty _hairbrushes_ (do we really want to translate _spazzole_ as _hairbrushes_ here?)  both seem way off the mark, but the "endless building that ran through the entire city spreading everywhere like the clumps / tussocks of hair on a mangy / scabby head" seems more likely and more poetic.
Anyway, I am promoting "clump" and "tussock".
I think I am very close to theartichoke on post 2.
Has anyone thought of contacting the author?


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## Mary49

johngiovanni said:


> Has anyone thought of contacting the author?


Unfortunately the author died in 2013.


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## johngiovanni

That's sad, Mary. Thanks for telling me.
But, going on, I stand by my last post for now. I can't see "spazzole" as "hairbrushes" in this context.


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## Pietruzzo

johngiovanni said:


> the "endless building that ran through the entire city spreading everywhere like the clumps / tussocks of hair on a mangy / scabby


Do clumps of hair spread everywhere on a scabby head? I'm aftaid they tend to thin out.


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## theartichoke

Pietruzzo said:


> Do clumps of hair spread everywhere on a scabby head? I'm aftaid they tend to thin out.


I've tried to visualize what the author could be getting at with this simile, and if you think of the buildings in Rome as the clumps or tufts of hair, and the streets and piazzas as the bare, scabby scalp, it kind of works. I suppose it's also possible to see the buildings in Rome, or any other old city, as being like "un unico, infinito palazzo" insofar as they tend to be all connected to each other: someone from the countryside, where each separate building is surrounded by land, might be inclined to see it this way.


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