# 수고하다 vs 고생하다



## cold_blood_boy178

Korean people often use "수고하다" and "고생하다". However, I don't know when I should use "수고하다" and when I should use "고생하다".
Please teach me when I should use.


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## 조금만

I'm not sure this sort of thing can be "taught" by context-free Q and A, as distinct from learned through experience and example. But then that's true of very many things in Korean.

As ever, the native speakers will no doubt shed light in due course. But I think I can venture a couple of points in the meantime, learner to learner.

수고하다 and its various mutations are widely used formulaically, i.e. when you don't particularly mean that someone's "hard work" is particularly praiseworthy, especially if all they're doing is their job (a taxi driver taking you to your destination, a delivery person bringing a package to your door). English-speaking people  in parallel situations would just say "Thank you", or, in some instances "Goodbye" (not to mention the now ubiquitous "Cheers" which sends shivers down my ageing pedantic spine). However, if a manager says 수고하세요 to a subordinate who has provided, say, a very thorough report on a complex matter, then it really has the more substantive meaning of "Thank you for your hard/excellent work". 

Sometimes apparently the same formula shifts in significance according to precise context. The lady of the house routinely saying goodbye to the daily help as she goes off duty will say 수고하세요 in a more or less offhand sing-song tone without even checking whether the dusting has been done properly, but on an occasion where the same daily help has had to spend hours scrubbing the floors and cleaning down the walls after her employers threw a very wild party, the employer's "수고하세요" will be said in heartfelt tones as an envelope stuffed with bonus banknotes is handed over and will have more of its literal meaning. 

고생하다, by contrast, is not normally used as a mere polite verbal gesture (as is the case when you say 수고하세요 to a taxi driver). In most situations, it's the equivalent of saying "You've been to an unusual amount of trouble (so thank you)", and as in English, that's normally not something you say out of mere politeness unless its actually true, and you attach some importance to showing that you're aware of the effort made on your behalf and that you appreciate that it was somehow beyond the call of duty. Maybe that taxi driver carried your heavy bags up six flights of stairs for you... And here lurks a peril. Because if you say that to someone who hasn't actually put themselves out for you, it may just be taken as sarcasm and cause offence.

Not that this is a real danger for people who are visibly or audibly foreigners, UNLESS they are people of Korean heritage brought up in the West visiting Korea for the first time. Koreans assume that if you visibly are Korean genetically, you are also Korean linguistically, and they aren't inclined to make allowances. Whereas blotchy-pink-skinned people with big noses like me are never expected to know such nuances, and all sorts of faux pas are overlooked with cheerful good grace.

But there are degrees of intensity with this expression too. Literally of course, 고생 is 苦生, suffering, severe hardship, a few notches more painful or arduous than 수고 [受苦]. Said with strong feeling in appropriate circumstances, in a form like [마음]고생 많이 하셨죠? it means "You've really been through a lot of heartache, I know" (it isn't really a question in English, so the Korean interrogative in usually dropped in translation), and unlike all uses of 수고하다 and the less intense use of 고생하다 itself, it doesn't necessarily imply that the suffering was for the speaker's benefit rather than from some other cause (in other words, there's no suggestion in this particular usage of the word that there is a "and thank you for that" element in the remark, as distinct from maybe a hint of "and I admire your courage").


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## cold_blood_boy178

조금만 said:


> I'm not sure this sort of thing can be "taught" by context-free Q and A, as distinct from learned through experience and example. But then that's true of very many things in Korean.
> 
> As ever, the native speakers will no doubt shed light in due course. But I think I can venture a couple of points in the meantime, learner to learner.
> 
> 수고하다 and its various mutations are widely used formulaically, i.e. when you don't particularly mean that someone's "hard work" is particularly praiseworthy, especially if all they're doing is their job (a taxi driver taking you to your destination, a delivery person bringing a package to your door). English-speaking people  in parallel situations would just say "Thank you", or, in some instances "Goodbye" (not to mention the now ubiquitous "Cheers" which sends shivers down my ageing pedantic spine). However, if a manager says 수고하세요 to a subordinate who has provided, say, a very thorough report on a complex matter, then it really has the more substantive meaning of "Thank you for your hard/excellent work".
> 
> Sometimes apparently the same formula shifts in significance according to precise context. The lady of the house routinely saying goodbye to the daily help as she goes off duty will say 수고하세요 in a more or less offhand sing-song tone without even checking whether the dusting has been done properly, but on an occasion where the same daily help has had to spend hours scrubbing the floors and cleaning down the walls after her employers threw a very wild party, the employer's "수고하세요" will be said in heartfelt tones as an envelope stuffed with bonus banknotes is handed over and will have more of its literal meaning.
> 
> 고생하다, by contrast, is not normally used as a mere polite verbal gesture (as is the case when you say 수고하세요 to a taxi driver). In most situations, it's the equivalent of saying "You've been to an unusual amount of trouble (so thank you)", and as in English, that's normally not something you say out of mere politeness unless its actually true, and you attach some importance to showing that you're aware of the effort made on your behalf and that you appreciate that it was somehow beyond the call of duty. Maybe that taxi driver carried your heavy bags up six flights of stairs for you... And here lurks a peril. Because if you say that to someone who hasn't actually put themselves out for you, it may just be taken as sarcasm and cause offence.
> 
> Not that this is a real danger for people who are visibly or audibly foreigners, UNLESS they are people of Korean heritage brought up in the West visiting Korea for the first time. Koreans assume that if you visibly are Korean genetically, you are also Korean linguistically, and they aren't inclined to make allowances. Whereas blotchy-pink-skinned people with big noses like me are never expected to know such nuances, and all sorts of faux pas are overlooked with cheerful good grace.
> 
> But there are degrees of intensity with this expression too. Literally of course, 고생 is 苦生, suffering, severe hardship, a few notches more painful or arduous than 수고 [受苦]. Said with strong feeling in appropriate circumstances, in a form like [마음]고생 많이 하셨죠? it means "You've really been through a lot of heartache, I know" (it isn't really a question in English, so the Korean interrogative in usually dropped in translation), and unlike all uses of 수고하다 and the less intense use of 고생하다 itself, it doesn't necessarily imply that the suffering was for the speaker's benefit rather than from some other cause (in other words, there's no suggestion in this particular usage of the word that there is a "and thank you for that" element in the remark, as distinct from maybe a hint of "and I admire your courage").


thanks for your reply. it's very helpful for me.


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## 조금만

Glad it was of some interest, but you'll get more reliable replies from native speakers soon, I'm sure.

But I hope you'll forgive me for pointing out that this isn't one of those forums frequented by youths who squeal that they're being "disrespected" if their posts are "cut" by people responding to them. 

When you press "reply with quote" the software loads the entire post into your edit buffer, where you can, and indeed should, edit it down to whatever specific part you want to quote. And if you find that there isn't such a specific part after all, it's best not to quote at all.  

I am sometimes embarrassed at the length of the ramblings I inflict on the ever-patient members of this forum when I come back and read them in the cold light of a later day. But it's even more embarrassing to me if those ramblings have been duplicated verbatim and in extenso, doubling the suffering of innocent bystanders.


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## cold_blood_boy178

I am sorry. I just want to say thanks for your reply. Next time, I will never do like that again. I think it could be better if the forum has "thank" button. I am a new member in this forum and this is my first thread. I hope I can study a lot through the other threads. And, I can also contribute to this forum by answering some questions that I know.

PS: you are an expert not only in Korean, but also in English.  .


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## ddungbo

You really are an expert in Korean language and culture. My hats off to you, '조금만'님.
This being an excellent explanation already, there is not much to add. I'll only point out a small mistake in your comment.



조금만 said:


> *수고하다 and its various mutations are widely used formulaically*,_(Very true This should be the first thing to be mentioned about this expression, Good point)_ i.e. when you don't particularly mean that someone's "hard work" is particularly praiseworthy, especially if all they're doing is their job (a taxi driver taking you to your destination, a delivery person bringing a package to your door). English-speaking people  in parallel situations would just say "Thank you", or, in some instances "Goodbye" (not to mention the now ubiquitous "Cheers" which sends shivers down my ageing pedantic spine). However, if a manager says *수고하세요* to a subordinate who has provided, say, a very thorough report on a complex matter, then it really has the more substantive meaning of "Thank you for your hard/excellent work".



*수고하세요 *-- I don't know why you wrote 수고하세요 where it should all be the past form, 수고하셨어요 or 수고하셨습니다(or other variants) because making it a third time reading your comment, I'm quite convinced that your understanding is absolutely precise and correct, and this makes me wonder why. Anyway, I can provide a situation where both 수고하세요 and 수고하셨어요 are said by a manager in a very short conversation. 

employee : 여기 말씀하셨던 서류 다 작성했습니다.
manager : 아 그래요. 수고 많으셨습니다. (살펴본 후에) 아주 잘 됐군요! 고생했어요.
employee : 예, 고맙습니다.
manager : 그래요, 그럼 계속 수고해주세요.

The first one, 수고 많으셨습니다. is, as you elaborated, a formulaic expression, but then the manager  takes a look at the report and may very well go on to say 고생했어요. Below your explanation goes in the sense that this one is not appropriate for the mere polite verbal gesture, and I agree, but since the two expressions blend with each other, very close in meaning, they sometimes, not very often though, replace one another, with only difference being that between 수고하셨습니다 and more emphatic 수고하셨습니다(=고생하셨습니다). It's true even this light, fomulaic use of 고생하셨습니다 goes deeper in emotion than 수고하셨습니다. In this dialog, the manager is now satisfied with the result so he would say this with genuine tone and feelings, and this is rather a compliment than a sympathy for the trouble he's been through in this workplace context, I guess. 고생하셨습니다 is not so much prevalent as 수고하셨습니다. That's for sure. The last one, 수고해주세요 is just one of the variants that is slightly more polite and this is extremely vague and subtle as to how and when it is used. So don't think of this as an equivalent of 수고하세요. This one is akin to in your example 수고하세요 to a taxi driver, meaning Good bye or thank you.




> Sometimes apparently the same formula shifts in significance according to precise context. The lady of the house routinely saying goodbye to the daily help as she goes off duty will say 수고하세요 in a more or less offhand sing-song tone without even checking whether the dusting has been done properly, but on an occasion where the same daily help has had to spend hours scrubbing the floors and cleaning down the walls after her employers threw a very wild party, the employer's "수고하세요" will be said in heartfelt tones as an envelope stuffed with bonus banknotes is handed over and will have more of its literal meaning.



Just as I said, both 수고하세요 here should be changed to 수고하셨어요. The second scenario, cleaning up the mess after the party, all you need to convey your heartfelt sympathy is one word  "아.. or 아이고..." 
so, she goes like "아.../ 아이고.. (정말) 수고하셨어요" 




> 고생하다, by contrast, is not normally used as a mere polite verbal gesture (as is the case when you say 수고하세요 to a taxi driver). In most situations, it's the equivalent of saying "You've been to an unusual amount of trouble (so thank you)", and as in English, that's normally not something you say out of mere politeness unless its actually true, and you attach some importance to showing that you're aware of the effort made on your behalf and that you appreciate that it was somehow beyond the call of duty. Maybe that taxi driver carried your heavy bags up six flights of stairs for you... And here lurks a peril. Because if you say that to someone who hasn't actually put themselves out for you, it may just be taken as sarcasm and cause offence.



I agree with you. Well, I think I haven't said this, I agree on all accounts made in your post, basically. Here, you're quite right in saying we never say 고생하세요 or 고생하셨습니다 to a taxi driver unless the like situation you illustrated.


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## 조금만

I'm really grateful to you, ddungbo, for correcting my goofs. 수고하셨어요, nay indeed, 고생하셨어요 (with no sarcasm intended).  

But I couldn't claim to be an expert in the Korean language, even if I didn't make such 신참 -esque bloopers. It's my fifth language and I only started trying to learn it seriously after my 환력 was already behind me.

As I remarked in another post, I do actually try not to make up my own Korean examples, even simple ones, but I seem to have got carried away on this topic when trying to sort out the semantics (which only really became clear to me in the course of writing that post) so the actual Korean bits were typed with only half my ageing brain.

But as I used to tell my students (of a somewhat less tricky language for English native speakers). "You only learn a language properly by repeatedly making a linguistic fool of yourself in front of native speakers. Things you learn that way stick for life. That's why we make you live abroad for a year".

Since there's a distinct shortage of native speakers of Korean in my corner of the UK, I have to show myself up here instead.


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## vientito

just curious to know what's the difference between 화갑 and 환력 ?


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## 조금만

New thread for new question, please!!!

But since it's partly my fault, I used 환력 because the Hanja look more impressive (a lot more strokes than for 화갑 (which I guess is rather more frequently found).  So I chose 還曆 over 花甲. I'm sure our native speakers will be able to say more in that new thread which you're going to start. At least, I hope you are.

I'd better also say that in modern health-conscious Korea, the 화갑 is often deferred to the 70th (in Sino-Korean reckoning) birthday, and I'm not THAT old, yet, though I'm working on getting there.


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## Nikowifey

cold_blood_boy178 said:


> Korean people often use "수고하다" and "고생하다". However, I don't know when I should use "수고하다" and when I should use "고생하다".
> Please teach me when I should use.



I would like to make it simpler to understand and hopefully my husband finds this thread and believe what I know...(sigh)

Basically, they both are the same expressions to appreciate or thank someone's effort. 수고해, 고생해 both can be used between friends, peers, collegues, and people who are younger than you. 수고해요 and 수고하세요 are for people who are younger than you(but not in friendship status) or people who work under, or for you. 고생해요 is still not the most formal, but it implies slightly more respect than 수고해요 and 수고하세요 so this is for people who are a bit older than you, or same aged collegues but still keeping some formality.

Now, 고생하세요, 고생하십시요, are the most formal, you should say this to someone who is much older, or your boss, with a full respective attitude(gesture).

Everything I mentioned here is in present forms, verb parts(after 고생 and 수고) should be changed accordingly for the right times. I remember these very clearly because it was on the test in my high school, a lot of older korean people(40 and above) and koreans in general make mistakes when properly using these terms, and don't know what is correct. My husband only heard older folks using it wrong, so he doesn't believe me. I wish there is a korean grammar in english on web somewhere.


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## yonh

Nikowifey said:


> Now, 고생하세요, 고생하십시요, are the most formal, you should say this to someone who is much older, or your boss, with a full respective attitude(gesture).



I don't think it's appropriate to say "수고해요" or "고생해요" to older people, especially to your boss, teacher, or parents, even if you add "-세요" or "-십시오" at the end. It's imperative after all, and you don't want them to have a hard time. Some even says that both are inappropriate expressions for elders because of its origin.


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