# Origin of the modern Greek ʦ



## ahvalj

Modern Greek surnames rather often contain the sound _ʦ,_ e. g. among the members of parliament we find _Κόλλια-Τσαρουχά, Τσακαλώτος, Τσανάκα, Τσιάρας, Τσίπρας, Τσίρκας, Τσουκαλάς _(https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Κατάλογος_Ελλήνων_βουλευτών_(2015)), _Τσαβδαρίδης, Τσούκαλης_ and _Τσουμάνης_ (https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Κατάλογος_Ελλήνων_βουλευτών_(Ιούνιος_2012)). What is the origin of this affricate? Is it a dialectal outcome of _k, kj, t_ and _tj_?


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## fdb

Many Greek surnames are in fact Turkish, with τσ for Turkish ç, and τζ for Turkish/Persian/Arabic c. Or Albanian. Or Vlach. Or Venetian. Or Bulgarian....


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## Ben Jamin

ahvalj said:


> Modern Greek surnames rather often contain the sound _ʦ,_ e. g. among the members of parliament we find _Κόλλια-Τσαρουχά, Τσακαλώτος, Τσανάκα, Τσιάρας, Τσίπρας, Τσίρκας, Τσουκαλάς _(https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Κατάλογος_Ελλήνων_βουλευτών_(2015)), _Τσαβδαρίδης, Τσούκαλης_ and _Τσουμάνης_ (https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Κατάλογος_Ελλήνων_βουλευτών_(Ιούνιος_2012)). What is the origin of this affricate? Is it a dialectal outcome of _k, kj, t_ and _tj_?


Or *Τσιουτσιας*.


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## sotos

Many [ts] are a latin influence. e.g. Κύθηρα > Cirigo > [τσιρίγο].  Some [ts] seem to have been developed in local dialects from the [ki].  It is characteristic of the Kretans to pronounce as [tsi] the diminutive suffix -ki.  Other _ts_ are from turkish or slavonic (e.g. tsopanis = shepherd). A  Greek-made _ts_ is the contruction of syllables where a vowel is between t and s, in rural dialects.  For example χαιρέτησα > χαιρέτ'σα (Ι saluted). Greek declination makes words long, and informal shortenings are common.


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## ahvalj

Thanks, and could you analyze the surnames from above?


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## fdb

One example from your list: _Τσαβδαρίδης _< Turkish çavdar < Persian jawdar “rye”, with Greek suffix -_ίδης._


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## apmoy70

ahvalj said:


> Modern Greek surnames rather often contain the sound _ʦ,_ e. g. among the members of parliament we find _Κόλλια-Τσαρουχά, Τσακαλώτος, Τσανάκα, Τσιάρας, Τσίπρας, Τσίρκας, Τσουκαλάς _(https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Κατάλογος_Ελλήνων_βουλευτών_(2015)), _Τσαβδαρίδης, Τσούκαλης_ and _Τσουμάνης_ (https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Κατάλογος_Ελλήνων_βουλευτών_(Ιούνιος_2012)).


Τσούκαλης < Ιt. zucca (pumpkin), metaph. for big-headed, Tσουμάνης < (possibly) Tur. çıman (painter).


ahvalj said:


> What is the origin of this affricate? Is it a dialectal outcome of _k, kj, t_ and _tj_?


Yes, tsitacism is a dialectal feature in MoGr:
ByzGr *«δεκανίκιον»* > MoGr *«δεκανίκι»* (crutch) > Megaran dialect *«δεκανίτσι»*
ByzGr *«καττούλιον»* (kitten) > Cretan dialect *«κατσούλι»*
Koine *«βοῦττις»* (vessel in the shape of the frustum of a cone) > Corfian dialect *«βουτσί»* (barrel).


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## ahvalj

Leaving aside the Turkish or Italian borrowings, what was the chance of words with dialectal phonetic traits to become officially registered surnames? I am asking this because in many countries the surnames had to be approved by the church or official instances, and as a result they were often brought in accordance to the literary standard.


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## Perseas

As far as I know, there is not such a problem in Greece. I think the first (Christian) names have to be approved by church not surnames.


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## apmoy70

Even emperors (during the Byzantine Empire) had family names with dialectal phonetic traits, e.g *«Ἰωάννης Τσιμισκῆς»* [ʦ͡imiˈscis], *«Ἀλέξιος Μούρτζουφλος»* [ˈmurʣ͡uflos], it's no big deal in Greece.


Perseas said:


> As far as I know, there is not such a problem in Greece. I think the first (Christian) names have to be approved by church not surnames.


And the church respects local trends e.g the first name *«Τσαμπίκος/Τσαμπίκα»* [ʦ͡amˈbikos] (male), [ʦ͡amˈbika] (female) from the island of Rhodes, named after the local cult of Παναγία Τσαμπίκα (akin to Lourdes, or Montserrat)


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## Perseas

apmoy70 said:


> And the church respects local trends e.g the first name *«Τσαμπίκος/Τσαμπίκα»* [ʦ͡amˈbikos] (male), [ʦ͡amˈbika] (female) from the island of Rhodes, named after the local cult of Παναγία Τσαμπίκα (akin to Lourdes, or Montserrat)


True!


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## Ben Jamin

I am puzzled with the Greek surname *Tsioutsias*. In Poland I had a work colleague named *Ciucias* /Tsiutsias/. Is the Greek Tsioutsias from Slavic, or Ciucias from Greek?


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## apmoy70

^Is he from Corfu by any chance?
Τσιούτσια or τσούτσα is the dummy (i.e the plastic nipple given to infants) in the Corfiat dialect (I have no idea if it's Greek or a loanword)


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## Perseas

apmoy70 said:


> ^Is he from Corfu by any chance?
> Τσιούτσια or τσούτσα is the dummy (i.e the plastic nipple given to infants) in the Corfiat dialect (I have no idea if it's Greek or a loanword)


I found on google that this surname exists in Trikala, Thessaly.
τσιουτσιας - Google Search

I have no idea either, but it doesn't seem to have a Greek etymology.


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## OBrasilo

It's most likely an Italian loanword as the object is called _ciuccio_ in Italian.


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