# Persian: republic



## john welch

As I can't read Persian script, could you tell me the word for "republic"? My purpose is to find a word similar to Arabic jumhurraya, Turkish cumhuriyet. This word seems to be borrowed from an IE language, possibly Persian.


----------



## vandad

The exact analog for it is "جمهوری", which is quite similar to the words you mentioned.Etymologically this word is Arabic and not Persian.


----------



## john welch

Could you comment on this?  :
(Reasons that Jumharraya may be Persian):"It  doesn't follow typical four letter stem word order, the combination of consonants are more commonly used in Persian- (sounds more Indo-European than Semitic) , knowing its a word also used in Persian, the history of administrative words used in Arabic borrowed from neighboring cultures - (dostoor ,qanoon) ... and the linguistic tendency of conjugating borrowed words in the receptor's language syntax (ex. Italian conjugated according to Arabic grammar in contemporary Maltese):
A three or four letter root could have been borrowed from another language originally.
example: it became common in Lebanon during the civil war to use the verb بَلْوَرَ to mean clarify, from colloquial for glass window : بَلّور --"


----------



## vandad

If you take a look at Persian dictionaries like:"فرهنگ معین" and "لغتنامه دهخدا", you'll get it's a loanword,which has come from Arabic,as mentioned.That's why I'm quite sure, although it mightn't be originally Arabic, it couldn't be Persian at all.You can follow the links to make sure:
http://www.rismoon.com/moeenletterindex-fa.html 
www.loghatnaameh.com

You'd better paste your question in Arabic forum, there you might get a better answer!


----------



## thelastchoice

Regarding the Etymology of جمهوري :

It is originally Arabic which is derived from جمهور which means can mean:
public
audience
crowd
host
gathering
assembly
Republic in Arabic is جمهورية while جمهوري means related to Republic or Republican.
I used the above link and found :
جمهوری ( ~.) [ ع . ] (اِ.) نوعی از حکومت که رییس آن از سوی مردم کشور برای مدتی محدود برگزیده شود و آن انواع مختلف دارد: جمهوری...جمهوریت (جُ یَّ) [ ع . جمهوریة ] (مص جع .) حکومت جمهوری .


----------



## Qureshpor

How would one say, "Iran is a republic?"


----------



## searcher123

ايران كشوري جمهوري است
or
بر ايران جمهوري حاكم است


Albeit if you want to say about Iran's governmental system, you must say:

نظام حكومتي ايران، جمهوري اسلامي است


----------



## Qureshpor

searcher123 said:


> ايران كشوري جمهوري است
> or
> بر ايران جمهوري حاكم است
> 
> 
> Albeit if you want to say about Iran's governmental system, you must say:
> 
> نظام حكومتي ايران، جمهوري اسلامي است




In "Iran Kishvarii jumhuurii ast", "jumhuurii" is an adjective. Is it possible to use it as a noun as in "Iran is *a* republic?"


----------



## searcher123

In modern Persian, جمهوري is a noun. If you have a look at new edition of فرهنگ معين, you can see it is defined as a noun. In other new Persian dictionaries, فرهنگ كلمه say, it is defined as a noun too.


----------



## Qureshpor

searcher123 said:


> In modern Persian, جمهوري is a noun. If you have a look at new edition of فرهنگ معين, you can see it is defined as a noun. In other new Persian dictionaries, فرهنگ كلمه say, it is defined as a noun too.



OK, in that case can we say..

"Iran yek jumhuurii ast"? If the answer is no, how can we use "jumhuurii" as a noun in a Farsi sentence?


----------



## searcher123

Yes you can. ايران يك جمهوري است is not wrong for me, although is not a nice sentence. My suggestion is the same as my previous examples: ايران كشوري جمهوري است that is exactly as ايران يك كشور جمهوري است or بر ايران جمهوري حاكم است. Maybe others can suggest some better sentences too.


----------



## Qureshpor

searcher123 said:


> Yes you can. ايران يك جمهوري است is not wrong for me, although is not a nice sentence. My suggestion is the same as my previous examples: ايران كشوري جمهوري است that is exactly as ايران يك كشور جمهوري است or بر ايران جمهوري حاكم است. Maybe others can suggest some better sentences too.



I am not sure if "Iran yek jumhuurii ast" is correct.

Let's look at one or two examples.

X faqat yek insaan ast (X is only a human being [noun])

Y sifat-haa-yi-insaanii nadaarad (Y lacks human [adjective] qualities)

Z hiich insaaniyat nadaarad ( Z has no humanity[noun] whatsoever)

Therefore, I think perhaps the correct sentence might be..

Iran yek jumhuuriyat ast

What do you think?


----------



## searcher123

QURESHPOR said:


> I am not sure if "Iran yek jumhuurii ast" is correct.
> 
> Let's look at one or two examples.
> 
> X faqat yek insaan ast (X is only a human being [noun])
> 
> Y sifat-haa-yi-insaanii nadaarad (Y lacks human [adjective] qualities)
> 
> Z hiich insaaniyat nadaarad ( Z has no humanity[noun] whatsoever)
> 
> Therefore, I think perhaps the correct sentence might be..
> 
> Iran yek jumhuuriyat ast
> 
> What do you think?



I just can say if you say so, no one will understand you at the present. Yes, you can found جمهوريت in new dictionaries too, but it is not used by common people, newspapers, magazines, TV, etc.


----------



## Qureshpor

searcher123 said:


> I just can say if you say so, no one will understand you at the present. Yes, you can found جمهوريت in new dictionaries too, but it is not used by common people, newspapers, magazines, TV, etc.



Well, it was you who said, "Iran yek jumhuurii ast" is not a *nice* sentence! Why do you think it is not a nice sentence? Can you provide an alternative sentence which is better than this sentence or the one that I have come up with (Iran yek jumhuuriyat ast)?


----------



## searcher123

Why a butterfly is nice? I think because its harmony is complete! 'Iran yek jomhori ast' is not nice? why? because I think its harmony have problem! I told my suggestion previously: 'ايران كشوري جمهوري است' or 'بر ايران جمهوري حاكم است'. If you don't like it, please wait for a better answer of others. I told 'Iran yek Jomhoriat ast' is not used by us. You like ask me why? I just can say I don't know.


----------



## pasargadae

Dear *QURESHPOR* ,
What Gramaticlly you discuss about, nowadays is the major political debate that "Is Iran really a republic country"? 
anyway "nezaame Iran jomhuuri ast?" ya "hokumat dar Iran Jomhuri ast"? seem better because they have been repeated frequently, but " Iran yek keshvare jomhuri ast?" is not incorrect as you cn replace it with other words like"democratic" "Iran yek keshvare democratic ast?" & so
"Iran yek "....(a noun)" johuri ast" or "Iran, jomhuri ast".


----------



## Qureshpor

searcher123 said:


> Why a butterfly is nice? I think because its harmony is complete! 'Iran yek jomhori ast' is not nice? why? because I think its harmony have problem!



Let us agree to disagree. In my humble opinion, "Iran yek jumhuurii ast" is grammatically wrong and it has nothing to do with butterflies or any other living organism. Neither has it anything to do with harmony.


----------



## Qureshpor

pasargadae said:


> Dear *QURESHPOR* ,
> What Gramaticlly you discuss about, nowadays is the major political debate that "Is Iran really a republic country"?
> anyway "nezaame Iran jomhuuri ast?" ya "hokumat dar Iran Jomhuri ast"? seem better because they have been repeated frequently, but " Iran yek keshvare jomhuri ast?" is not incorrect as you cn replace it with other words like"democratic" "Iran yek keshvare democratic ast?" & so



In all your sentences above "jumhuurii" is an adjective and not a noun. None of your sentences mean, "Iran is a republic"!!!! If "jumhuuriyat" is wrong, then it is possible that this English sentence can not be translated directly into Persian.


----------



## pasargadae

I mean it is better to utilize "yek" before a noun not adjective
In English, "republic" is a noun. In Farsi, we utilize "jomhuri" like an adjective. If you consider it as a noun, you are right .


> it is possible that this English sentence can not be translated directly into Persian


 : yes, absolutely. in translation it's always possible


----------



## Faylasoof

In Arabic and Urdu we treat جمہور ( = group or large body of people) as a noun, جمہوری (republican) as an adjective and a noun (!) and جمہوریت / جمہوریہ (republic) again as a noun only.

The same is seen in Persian where جمہور and جمہوری can be used as nouns and the latter can also be used an adjective. Here is Hayyim - on older dictionary but one that illustrates my point: 


جمہور _(jomhoor)_ Noun _A_ The populace, the demos. A commonwealth; a *republic*. [_(jamaheer)_ جماهیر = Plural].


جمہوری _(jomhooree)_ Intransitive and transitive 1. A *republic*. Ex. فرانسه جمہوری است || Republicanism. 2. Republican


جمہوریت _(jomhooriyyat)_ Noun _A_ Republicanism. *Republic*.

The sentence presented (فرانسه جمہوری است) would be translated as "France is a republic".

It seems the word جمہوریت is not that common now in Persian.


----------



## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> In Arabic and Urdu we treat جمہور ( = group or large body of people) as a noun, جمہوری (republican) as an adjective and a noun (!) and جمہوریت / جمہوریہ (republic) again as a noun only.
> 
> The same is seen in Persian where جمہور and جمہوری can be used as nouns and the latter can also be used an adjective. Here is Hayyim - on older dictionary but one that illustrates my point:
> 
> 
> جمہور _(jomhoor)_ Noun _A_ The populace, the demos. A commonwealth; a *republic*. [_(jamaheer)_ جماهیر = Plural].
> 
> 
> جمہوری _(jomhooree)_ Intransitive and transitive 1. A *republic*. Ex. فرانسه جمہوری است || Republicanism. 2. Republican
> 
> 
> جمہوریت _(jomhooriyyat)_ Noun _A_ Republicanism. *Republic*.
> 
> The sentence presented (فرانسه جمہوری است) would be translated as "France is a republic".
> 
> It seems the word جمہوریت is not that common now in Persian.



Thank you for your detailed input for which I am grateful to you.

It seems that according to Hayyim, even "jumhuur" can mean "republic". So, I presume, "Iran (yek) jumhuur ast" would also be correct?

From what you have said above, on the Urdu front would it be correct to say, "John  McCain jumhuurii hai" for "John McCain is a Republican"?


----------

