# FR: I make myself do something



## Icetrance

Hello,

Je me force à manger des choses que je n'aime pas.

I'm confused about the construction "se faire + infinitive" here. 

Je me fais manger des choses que je n'aime pas = I have myself (make myself) eat things that I don't like

Wouldn't "Je me fais faire des choses que je ne veux pas faire" mean "I have myself do things I don't want to do"?

So, "Je me suis fait aller chez le médecin" = Je me suis forcé à aller chez le médecin.

I know that people do say "Je me fais me marrer tout seul" = I make myself have fun all by myself (correction: "to make myself laugh all by myself).


Merci d'avance


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## Already-Seen

> "Je me fais me marrer tout seul"


I think that just means "I crack myself up".


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## Icetrance

Already-Seen said:


> I think that just means "I crack myself up".


 

Oui, vous avez raison. Good job! C'est bien le sens.

Je me fais marrer tout seul = I crack myself up (make myself laugh)

Je me fais me marrer tout seul = ditto

Je me suis embrouillé à cause du pronom réfléchi "se" dans le second exemple.


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## Icetrance

Hello,

I'm somewhat confused about the following sentences:

Is "Je me force à aller chez le médecin" the equivalent of "Je me fais aller chez le médecin." You will hear people say "Ma mère m'a fait aller chez le médecin." But, I'm wondering if you can say this when you're referring to yourself.

_Je me fais faire des choses que je ne veux pas faire = I have myself do things that I don't want to do_

_Je me fais manger des choses que je n'aime pas = I make myself eat things I don't like_

_Je me fais lui dire que je suis enceinte = I have/make myself tell him that I'm pregnant_

But, if you say "Je me fais dire que je suis stupide", it means "I get told that I'm dumb." Also, same thing goes with "Je me fais manger tout cru", which means "I get eaten raw" (literally). I think in English we'd say something like "They eat me alive."


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## jann

I think your first sentence would be understood to mean "I have the things I don't like to do done for me."

I could be wrong, but don't think your 2nd and 3rd sentences make sense.  There is too much confusion with causative _faire_, where you make someone else do something.

If you want to say that you make/force youself do something, you just need to use a different verb:  je m'oblige, je m'efforce, je me résigne, je me contrains, je prends sur moi, je me dis que je dois... etc.


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## Icetrance

jann said:


> I think your first sentence would be understood to mean "I have the things I don't like to do done for me."
> 
> I could be wrong, but don't think your 2nd and 3rd sentences make sense. There is too much confusion with causative _faire_, where you make someone else do something.
> 
> If you want to say that you make/force youself do something, you just need to use a different verb: je m'oblige, je m'efforce, je me résigne, je me contrains, je prends sur moi, je me dis que je dois... etc.


 
I don't know...it seems ambiguous. But, leave it to Icetrance to find the weirdest sentences...

Je me fais faire des choses que je ne veux pas = I have things done for me that I don't want to do.

But, could it also mean "I make myself do things I don't want to do." It seems ambigous. Normally, French goes around this by saying "Je me force à faire des choses que je ne veux pas faire.

Franchement, je sèche dessus.


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## Icetrance

jann said:


> I think your first sentence would be understood to mean "I have the things I don't like to do done for me."
> 
> I could be wrong, but don't think your 2nd and 3rd sentences make sense. There is too much confusion with causative _faire_, where you make someone else do something.
> 
> If you want to say that you make/force youself do something, you just need to use a different verb: je m'oblige, je m'efforce, je me résigne, je me contrains, je prends sur moi, je me dis que je dois... etc.


 
I think that my sentences are very awkward in French, but possible. I do think that they would mean "Je me force à".

Je me fais manger des choses que je n'aime pas = I have myself eat things I don't like 

Je me fais aller chez le médecin = I make myself go to the doctor's.

Je me fais faire des choses que je ne veux pas faire = I have myself do things I don't want to do.


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## jann

Yes, Icetrance, I understand your suggestion, but at this point repeating the example sentences isn't helping us make progress on your question.  We are just going to need to wait for a native speaker to weigh in.


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## Maître Capello

No native French speaker would ever say _se faire + <_infinitive> if the subject of _se faire_ is the same as that of the infinitive; it sounds really weird. One would rather say _se forcer à__ + <_infinitive> as you suggested…


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## KaRiNe_Fr

Salut Ice,



Icetrance said:


> I think that my sentences are very awkward in French, but possible. [...]


I step in (whereas I swear not to do it in grammar part anymore!) only to concur with jann: if you want to say « Je me force à » don't use « Je me fais + infinitif », stay with « Je me force à (*) + infinitif »: this is the way a native would say!

 (*) or any other of her fine suggestions.

Edit: Ah, Capello ! T'avais pas vu rentrer...


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## Icetrance

KaRiNe_Fr said:


> Salut Ice,
> 
> 
> I'm stepping in (whereas? I swear not to do it in grammar part anymore!) only to concur with jann: if you want to say « Je me force à » don't use « Je me fais + infinitif », stay with « Je me force à (*) + infinitif »: this is the way a native would say (it)!
> 
> (*) or any other of her fine suggestions.
> 
> Edit: Ah, Capello ! T'avais pas vu rentrer...


 
I'm know that native speakers would not say these sentences. I'm asking if they are possible? I think they are, but they sound very unnatural.

You have to concur with me as well???? LOL I've been pretty much in agreement with Jann all along. I don't think I made myself very clear.

To Jann: I wasn't writing those sentence over again to bump the thread up. I was doing it just for emphasis reasons.


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## ?e©am

I agree with you Maitre capello, Icetrance.

I'll just try to be more specific about "se faire faire":

When you say in french " je me fais faire" , that means that someone else is doing something FOR YOU (= verb "se faire faire")

eg: "Je me fais faire les ongles a l'institut de beauté'' = I use to make my manucure at the beauty institute (= My manucure is made by someone else than me)

BUT if your subject in the sentence is the one who is doing the action, only use the 'active' form because 'se faire faire' is a passive form.

If you wanna say (your eg) : "I have mysef eat things I don't like", translate by " Je *mange* des choses que je n'aime pas", or " je *m'efforce de* manger des choses que je n'aime pas..."

The sentence you wrote: "Je me fais faire des choses que je ne veux pas faire = I have myself do things I don't want to do." is not correct.

You'd rather say : "je me vois faire des choses que je ne veux pas faire" (implied, You surprise yourself by doing things that you don't like to do usually...)
Or : "On fait les choses (pour moi) que je ne veux pas faire" (implied, someone does make things FOR YOU that you don't like)

I hope I helped you a little to understand the meaning of "se faire faire"...


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## Maître Capello

Icetrance said:


> I'm know that native speakers would not say these sentences. I'm asking if they are possible? I think they are, but they sound very unnatural.


These may be grammatically correct, but it is beside the point. Don't bother with phrases that natives would never use!


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## KaRiNe_Fr

Icetrance said:


> [...] You have to concur with me as well???? LOL [...]


I think I still don't understand your point... so I can't concur with you! 

Here is one sentence that pops to mind that works with « Je me fais + infinitif » : Je me fais vomir.
(soit après une méchante crise de boulimie pour rester mince, soit après m'être regardée dans la glace parce que je ne me supporte plus en peinture ! ).
Here are some others: je me fais prendre en photo, je me fais couper les cheveux, je me fais marcher dessus, je me fais bonzer à la plage. 
But all those examples use verbs that accept _faire _before as part of an expression: se faire marcher dessus/se faire prendre (en photo)/se faire couper les cheveux/se faire bronzer... 
*_se faire aller_ simply doesn't exist.

Je ne sais pas si je me fais bien comprendre (!) moi aussi.  D'où mon précédent serment... 

(thanks for the corrections!)


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## Icetrance

Maître Capello said:


> These may be grammatically correct, but it is beside the point. Don't bother with phrases (sentences) that natives would never use!


 
Je peux si je veux, mon cher Capello LOL  Je ne regardais pas vraiment les choses sous un angle "pratique."  Désolé si je n'étais pas suffisamment clair dans ma question. D'ailleurs, si je parlais ou écrivais quelque chose en français, je ne me hasarderais jamais à dire aucune des phrases citées dans mes exemples.  

En tout cas, je me demande si un Québeçois comprendra la phrase suivante de la même manière que vous autres: "Je me fais faire ce que je ne veux pas faire."  I would like one of them to chime in.


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## Nicomon

Icetrance said:


> En tout cas, je me demande si un Québeçois comprendra la phrase suivante de la même manière que vous autres: "Je me fais faire ce que je ne veux pas faire." I would like one of them to chime in.


 
Québécoise chiming in. 

Alors oui... je comprendrais comme les autres que si _tu te fais faire ce que tu ne veux pas faire, _c'est que quelqu'un d'autre le fait à ta place. 

_Je m'oblige à aller chez le médecin_ (mais je devrais aussi me forcer à faire plus d'exercice)
_Je m'efforce de / me résigne à manger des choses que je n'aime pas _(s'il n'y a rien d'autre au menu)
_Je me contrains à faire des choses que je ne veux pas faire_ (parce que je suis masochiste)

Ce qui serait québécois, ce serait un truc comme : _Je me fais aller les babines / mâchoires. Je me fais aller les doigts sur le clavier. _


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## Icetrance

Nicomon said:


> Québécoise chiming in.
> 
> Alors oui... je comprendrais comme les autres que si _tu te fais faire ce que tu ne veux pas faire, _c'est que quelqu'un d'autre le fait à ta place.
> 
> _Je m'oblige à aller chez le médecin_ (mais je devrais aussi me forcer à faire plus d'exercice)
> _Je m'efforce de / me résigne à manger des choses que je n'aime pas _(s'il n'y a rien d'autre au menu)
> _Je me contrains à faire des choses que je ne veux pas faire_ (parce que je suis masochiste)
> 
> Ce qui serait québécois, ce serait un truc comme : _Je me fais aller les babines / mâchoires. Je me fais aller les doigts sur le clavier. _


 
Intéressant...compte tenu du fait que mon ami québeçois avait compris spontanément: je me force à faire des choses que je ne veux pas faire. Sorti du contexte, c'est difficile à dire. Ce qui est certain, c'est ambigu, et du coup, devrait être évité en toutes circonstances.

Voilà la fin d'un long calvaire...on y arrive si on insiste trop


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## jann

The mere fact that a native speaker is able to deduce the meaning does not mean a strucuture is appropriate.  The mere fact that a sentence is grammatically possible does not mean that it is well-constructed or even logical.  You can write utter nonsense without breaking any grammar rules.

If a foreigner says to me, "I have me get up for exercise every morning" then I will understand that he means to say "I make myself get up (early) to exercise every morning."  The foreigner's sentence is not natural, but it does not actually have any grammatical errors in it.  Saying "to have me + infinitive" is not a structure we use to indicate self-imposed obligation in English, but the brain is flexible enough to understand the intended meaning anyway.  

In your 1st post you said you were having trouble understanding _se faire + infinitive_.  It seems the origin of your confusion was that you wanted to make this structure mean something that it does not mean.  It does not mean "to make/force something (to) happen."  The fundamental, underlying idea is not one of obligation, requirement, or force.  

Instead, the underlying idea is one of initiation - things are set in motion such that they "get/cause something to happen."  The subject of _se faire_ is either responsible for setting things in motion such that a 3rd party does something:
..._je me suis fait épiler les jambes = _I got my legs waxed (i.e., by the aesthetician)

... or else the subject of _se faire_ is the (possibly unfortunate) victim of some 3rd party action that he did not set in motion.
..._je me suis fait voler mon sac _= I got my purse stolen (i.e., by a theif)

Because the idea of a 3rd party is absolutely inherent in causative faire constructions, it is illogical to use causative _se faire + infinitive_ when you want to say that you make yourself do something.  


Remember there is also the structure _personne A (ou quelque chose) fait + infinitive + personne B_.  This structure is often re-written with a preceding direct object pronoun... and if it is somehow logical for Person A and Person B to be the same person (as in Karine's example, "I make myself throw up" or your example "I make myself laugh") then you might be confused with the causative faire... but unlike causative faire, these sentences have no 3rd party.  And if there were any possible logical confusion with causative faire, you would therefore use a different structure so that your listener was sure to understand that no, there was no 3rd party.  Furthermore, this structure still has no idea of obligation or force.

I hope this helps to shed a little light on some of the confusion that I see when I read back through this discussion.


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## Icetrance

jann said:


> Because the idea of a 3rd party is absolutely inherent in causative faire constructions, it is illogical to use causative _se faire + infinitive_ when you want to say that you make yourself do something.


 
Interesting point! See here: http://www.languefrancaise.net/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=54729#p54729

Native speakers there say that "Je me fais faire ce que je ne veux pas" could be ambiguous in meaning. There are INDEED two possible meanings of this sentence, contrary to what's being said on this thread. The fact that the sentence is grammatically correct is not the issue at hand, but rather it's ability to be understood in different ways by native speakers Yes, your interpretation, Jann, is more likely, but my initial one is also a possibility. My other sentences are, by the way, are very, very unlikely to be ever said by a native speaker.


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## Nicomon

Icetrance said:


> Native speakers there say that "Je me fais faire ce que je ne veux pas"could be ambiguous in meaning.


 
I'm sure you understood the "unspoken words" in Piotr's answer  (#6 in your link). But what you are saying now is not the question you asked in #15, which was : 





> En tout cas, je me demande si un Québeçois comprendra la phrase suivante de la même manière que vous autres: "Je me fais faire ce que je ne veux pas *faire.*"


 
If you eliminate the word _faire_ at the end, it makes a world of difference. The sentence - as Verbum explained 





> A première vue, on pourrait penser que la personne est une victime dont on abuse. Mais dans ce cas-la on dirait plutôt :
> *Je me fais faire des choses que je ne veux pas.*


 can be understood as : _Je me fais faire ce que je ne veux pas... qu'on me fasse._ That is (forgive my Franglish) _Someone is doing something to me, that I don't want (anyone to do to me)._

_Je me fais manger / je me fais aller chez le médecin_ (which are not correct) would indeed be understood as _je me force/oblige/contrains à_... said by someone who literally translated _I have/make myself eat/go to the doctor._ There, I agree with you and Verbum.

However if you use the verb _faire... _then I share everyone's opinion (other than Verbum's) that_ je me fais faire = quelqu'un me fait / fait pour moi. _
Si je reprends les exemples de Karine : _Je me fais couper les cheveux / prendre en photo /marcher dessus_ ... je ne fais pas l'action moi-même. Quelqu'un me coupe les cheveux / me prend en photo / me marche dessus. Et si _je me fais bronzer..._ ce sont les rayons du soleil qui font l'action.


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