# они двое студентов?



## dePrades

As far as I know, after двое, трое, etc. goes genitive case... So you say трое мужчин, четверо студентов, пятеро солдат ... If there isn't a noun but a pronoun you have to keep it in the genitive case:

1) You can say их двое
2) You cannot say они двое

But what if you want to say "They are two students"... 

4) Can you say они двое студентов? That would be my choice, but I'm probably wrong.
5) Do you say их двое студентов?
6) You can say они, двое студентов with a comma so it's clear that они i двое.
7) You cannot say this sentence this way and you only say двое студентов...

8) Anything else...


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## Natalisha

Они два студента.

That's what we usually say.


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## Mr_Darcy

Они два студента.


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## dePrades

From your answers, should I deduce that  двое, трое, etc. are only used when they are the subject of a sentence? Or, at least, that they cannot be used as an attribute?  Is it possible Мы видели двое студентов? Thanks again for your help.


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## Angelo di fuoco

Even at risk of disagreement with the two previous replies, I'd say that we wouldn't say this sentence this way. If you know how many they are, mentioning the number becomes superfluous.

My proposals:
Эти двое - студенты. (situation like: you see them in a crowd and show them to a friend)
Они - студенты. (matter of fact, reply to a question)


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## Angelo di fuoco

dePrades said:


> From your answers, should I deduce that  двое, трое, etc. are only used when they are the subject of a sentence? Or, at least, that they cannot be used as an attribute?  Is it possible Мы видели двое студентов? Thanks again for your help.



It should be accusative: Мы видели двух/двоих студентов.


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## Natalisha

Angelo di fuoco said:


> Even at risk of disagreement with the two previous replies, I'd say that we wouldn't say this sentence this way. If you know how many they are, mentioning the number becomes superfluous.
> 
> My proposals:
> Эти двое - студенты. (situation like: you see them in a crowd and show them to a friend)
> Они - студенты. (matter of fact, reply to a question)


Context, context, context...

- Они, они... Да кто же они, в конце концов?
- Они? Они два студента.

or

- Вот так и живет впроголодь, а помочь ей некому.
- А сыновья?
- А что сыновья? Они два студента. Сами с хлеба на квас перебиваются.


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## Maroseika

Collective numbers are used when the nouns behave like a whole (like a collective).

Cf. Вошли двое солдат and Вошли два солдата.
In the first case we don't distinguish between them, while in the second case we consider the soldiers like the individuals. Of course, in most cases all this is only a nuance, but sometimes the difference is quite evident:


Эй, вы, трое, бегом сюда! 
I want them runing over here all together and that's why Эй, вы, три, бегом сюда! is impossible (or at least sounds bad).

Они - два студента means that we consider them as separate persons and collective number here would sound weird.
But:
Они - те двое, которые на той неделе ограбили банк They robbed it together, and in this phrase we consider them as a whole actor.
However:
Они - те два идиота, которые на той неделе ограбили банк. We added some individuality to those two, calling them idiots, and now cannot use collective number.


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## dePrades

Thanks Maroseika... I got your point... my problem is that I wanted to translate the sentence "they are three" in the context... "I'm studying a fornight in England. I'm living with a family. At home, they are three: Mike, Barbara and their son, Mark"...   And I don't really understand why you cannot say "Они - трое" and you have to say "их трое"... In the original sentence (in English) they is a subject and three can be considered an attribute... and I tried to copy this structure to Russian but, unfortunately for me, it doesn't work... And now, I'm trying to formulate a rule to use these collective numerals...


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## Maroseika

To say the truth, exactly like you, I cannot understand why Englishmen can say 'they are three'. But I believe they do say like that. 

Они - трое in your case is impossible. Why so? The reason, I guess, is that a collective numeral expresses an idea of collectiveness, of several persons as a whole. But if you are going to enumerate or denote them, they are not a whole anymore. Therefore: 
Они живут втроем. 
В этом доме живут трое. Эти трое - крайне подозрительные люди. Эти трое ходят по утрам на базар на руках.
But: 
В этом доме живут три человека (семья из трех человек): Миша, Варя и их сын Марик.

Or even such a combination (quite reasonable stylistically in some situations) as:
В этом доме живут трое: Миша, Варя и их сын Марик.
In this phrase we can see a fade-in from the depersonalized view (трое) to the personalization (names).


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## Angelo di fuoco

Natalisha said:


> Context, context, context...
> 
> - Они, они... Да кто же они, в конце концов?
> - Они? Они два студента.
> 
> or
> 
> - Вот так и живет впроголодь, а помочь ей некому.
> - А сыновья?
> - А что сыновья? Они два студента. Сами с хлеба на квас перебиваются.



First example: I would say "Они - студенты", or "Два студента" at most.
Second example: I would say "Два студента", or "Они - студенты" at most.

The numerals just combined with those personal pronouns just sound awkward to me, give me as many examples as you will.


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## dePrades

Maroseika said:


> To say the truth, exactly like you, I cannot understand why Englishmen can say 'they are three'. But I believe they do say like that.



To say the truth, I'm not a native English speaker... so I guess they say that in English. What I can assure is that in Spanish you can say "Ellos son tres"... and from this Spanish sentence I translated to Russian and to English to ask in this forum ... Thanks again!


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## morzh

Yes you can say "They are three". (Same as "Ellos son tres".)
But not only Englishmen say that - Americans do too 
And, I suspect, Aussies also.


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## Sobakus

dePrades said:


> And I don't really understand why you cannot say "Они - трое" and you have to say "их трое"... In the original sentence (in English) they is a subject and three can be considered an attribute...



Only "они - трое" is possible, and for the very reason you mentioned. An attribute can't influence the case of the noun, otherwise the noun couldn't be declined and thus couldn't be a part of a sentence.


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## eni8ma

morzh said:


> Yes you can say "They are three". (Same as "Ellos son tres".)
> But not only Englishmen say that - Americans do too
> And, I suspect, Aussies also.



Nup! That sounds like something I'd only read in a book, in a story set at least a century ago to justify the quaint style.

In modern colloquial English "At home, they are three" => "There are three in the family: ..." (other possibilities of course, but that's the one that springs to mind.)

Is that any easier to put into Russian?
- в семье - три (люде́й required?)


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## Maroseika

eni8ma said:


> Is that any easier to put into Russian?
> - в семье - три (люде́й required?)


Either в семьи три человека or в семье их трое (братьев, детей) or somehow like that. But just *в семье три *is not possible (save of some very special intricate context).
By the way, *три людей* is impossible anyway, because люди is Pluralia Tantum. Therefore it should be трое людей (like двое ножниц, трое суток, четверо детей, пятеро саней). (Strange enough, there is a noun люд, but it is not Singular for люди, it is Singularia Tantum).


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## eni8ma

Maroseika said:


> Either в семьи три человека or в семье их трое (братьев, детей) or somehow like that. But just *в семье три *is not possible (save of some very special intricate context).
> By the way, *три людей* is impossible anyway, because люди is Pluralia Tantum. Therefore it should be трое людей (like двое ножниц, трое суток, четверо детей, пятеро саней). (Strange enough, there is a noun люд, but it is not Singular for люди, it is Singularia Tantum).


Ah ... have not tackled numbers yet - I know 2,3,4 are different, but have not sat down to really work it out.

люди - oops - thanks for reminding me 

I did have  "в семьи - три"; is a longer dash needed for such punctuation?

- в семьи три человека
- в семье их трое - is this more in the tone of what dePrades was asking?


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## Maroseika

eni8ma said:


> I did have  "в семьи - три"; is a longer dash needed for such punctuation?


Yes, we call it тире –. 
Shorter one (hiphen -) is not used outside the words, i.e. used inside the complex words: диван-кровать, лже-доктор and so on.


> - в семьи три человека
> - в семье их трое - is this more in the tone of what dePrades was asking?


What tone you mean?


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## eni8ma

Maroseika said:


> Yes, we call it тире –.
> Shorter one (hyphen -) is not used outside the words, i.e. used inside the complex words: диван-кровать, лже-доктор and so on.


I don't have one of those on my keyboard - will have to copy and paste 


Maroseika said:


> What tone you mean?


"Tone" in this context is similar to "intent, manner" - what I was asking was 
- does "в семье их трое" fit the intent of his question?
A related question is - does "в семье их трое" sound more Russian, for this context?

BTW, if we allow the "—" in my first sentence, ie. в семьи — три - does that make it ok grammatically?


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## Maroseika

eni8ma said:


> I don't have one of those on my keyboard - will have to copy and paste


Try Cntr-. It works with 'wide' keyboard (but not on notebooks).



> "Tone" in this context is similar to "intent, manner" - what I was asking was
> - does "в семье их трое" fit the intent of his question?
> A related question is - does "в семье их трое" sound more Russian, for this context?


It sounds less formal than В семьи их три человека.

BTW, if we allow the "—" in my first sentence, ie. в семьи — три - does that make it ok grammatically?[/QUOTE]


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## eni8ma

Maroseika said:


> Try Cntr-. It works with 'wide' keyboard (but not on notebooks).


Not on mine unfortunately - 's ok, I can paste it in.

So ... is this sentence ok grammatically? (If not, I'll wait until I've studied numbers more.)
- в семье — три


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## Maroseika

eni8ma said:


> So ... is this sentence ok grammatically? (If not, I'll wait until I've studied numbers more.)
> - в семье — три



It is correct, but can be used only in some special context, such as:

— Сколько у вас детей?
— В семье — три. И еще пять живут с бывшей женой.

Quite clumsy, anyway.


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## Rosett

— Сколько у вас детей?
— В семье — трое/четверо. И еще четверо/пятеро живут с бывшей женой

или

— Сколько у вас детей?
— В семье — три/четыре ребенка. И еще четверо/пятеро живут с бывшей женой


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## Garbuz

- Сколько у вас детей?
- Пятеро. Трое живут с нами, двое остались с бывшей женой.


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