# Поезд дальше не идет...



## Christiano27

Hi guys, just a quick one. 

My brother, who is in Moscow at the moment wants to know why when the metro is at the last stop a call is made over the tannoy saying: 

'Поезд дальше не идет' and not 'Поезд дальше не eдет'.

He at least thinks it is идет. The best we could do to explain it, if indeed it is the former is because it will not be carrying anyone?

Спасибо заранее!


----------



## se16teddy

I remember now my Russian teacher at school explaining that in Russian "trains walk"!  They use the verb идти.


----------



## morzh

Christiano27 said:


> Hi guys, just a quick one.
> 
> My brother, who is in Moscow at the moment wants to know why when the metro is at the last stop a call is made over the tannoy saying:
> 
> 'Поезд дальше не идет' and not 'Поезд дальше не eдет'.
> 
> He at least thinks it is идет. The best we could do to explain it, if indeed it is the former is because it will not be carrying anyone?
> 
> Спасибо заранее!




Are you trying to find a logic in why a language uses a particular stable expression? Trust me, you won't.

It is just any large public transportation, when going to a station, "идет".

However some people would use "едет" and will be understood to.

But:

Автобус идет до станции.....
Поезд идет.
Троллейбус идет.

Why? A story comes to mind.

An american professor of Russian language in a New York college argued with a NATIVE russian speaker (a real story) about the expression "река вышла из берегов", trying to make a logical point that "a river cannot come out of the banks - one can only come out TO the banks, so "река вышла НА берега"".

Just remeber it.


----------



## morzh

se16teddy said:


> I remember now my Russian teacher at school  explaining that in Russian "trains walk"!  They use the verb  идти.



Well, if your native is English, then I have to get back to you with that: "идти" is "go" as well as "walk".

So how about "поезд идет" - "train goes"?  Not too foreign a concept for an English speaker, right? So what's so unusual?

------------

"To go" almost in any language is an extremely multi-functional verb.
It means almost every kind of movement, geographical, physical, emotional, work/process-related, aestyhetical/gustatory etc etc. It is so in English, and it is the same in Russian.

You are not surprised when someone says:

It goes well with a glass of Chianti.
The bus goes to the airport.
This does not go well with me.
I go to fishmarket every Wednesday.
It's a go!
You had to go and screw it up!
We will go to Spain!
I go vegetarian from now on!
This TV's gone!
It's going very well!
I went to work on the LASER technology development.
The company went on a money-splurging spree.
He goes by the name of "Snake Charmer".
We'll go by that rule.
I am going to kick your behind!
From now on, what he says - goes.
Guys, I really have to go. (after few beers - you know what I mean).

So, same in Russian.


----------



## Christiano27

Cheers guys, that's what I told him I suspected.


----------



## Selyd

*so "река вышла НА берега"*
Берег понимается как нечто не широкое.
_Рыбак сидит НА берегу. Дерево растет ВОЗЛЕ берега. __Вытащить лодку НА берег._
*"река вышла ИЗ берегов" *_и затопила пойму _(flood plain).


----------



## Sobakus

В случае с выходом из берегов очевидно берега понимаются как синоним границ.


----------



## Nanon

morzh said:


> Are you trying to find a logic in why a language uses a particular stable expression? Trust me, you won't.



There is, still. The train is not placed on something that is moving. The train is moving on its own. So, it идет... 
That reminds me of an example - I quote from native speakers. Moving walkways are one of the few places where можно и ехать, и идти (i.e. at the same time).


----------



## morzh

Again, no logic there.

Время идет.
Идет? (ОК?)
Не идет (не пошла) - did not go down well (о водке).
Не идет  - about an instrument that you cannot push through (you move it).
Идет - same, opposite sense; again, you move it.

No, I do not see much logic.

And, BTW, you actually can say "такси едет" and "такси идет".
"Поезд идет" - stable expression; there are kinds of motorized transportation that can be said of as "идет" and "едет".

(I am still a native speaker too)


----------



## Selyd

Compare -
*Автобус идет до станции.....
Поезд идет.
Троллейбус идет.*
and
*Автобус едет по дороге.
Мимо нас едет поезд.
Троллейбус едет по рельсам.*


----------



## konung

My uncle was in the Navy, and I distinctly remember I drove him to stupor and madness, when I was a  little kid, by trying to get an explanation from him as to why "Парoход идёт" (Steamboat walks/goes), but "Корабль плывёт" ("Ship sails")  - same thing as in English, by the way. So finally the best explanation I could come up with, anything that has an engine ( unless it's a car or carriage) - walks, but a ship ( at least historically before the advent of engines) was moved by the elements, therefore it does not make the effort itself by walking/going, it is being pushed/driven by currents and wind, ergo: it sails.

To add more to the confusion imagine what Captain John Silver could have said about  a ship that sails fast:

"Steady she goes, arrrr!" / "Хорошо идёт, зараза! Ё-хо-хо, и бутылка рома!"


----------



## morzh

konung said:


> why "ПарOход идёт" (Steamboat walks/goes), but "Корабль плывёт" ("Ship sails")  - same thing as in English, by the way.
> 
> "Steady she goes, arrrr!" / "Хорошо идёт, зараза! Ё-хо-хо, и бутылка рома!"




"Steady AS she goes"
"Aye-Aye, sir!" 

Also it does not really mean "хорошо идет зараза". The latter is used in Russian right after having a shot of a really strong liquor, after making a croaking hoarse sound and wrinkling the face/closing eyes etc.
----------------------------------------------

Now, about "пароход" and "корабль": both can "идти" and "плыть".

The reason for dual is simple: it is a matter of preference, and there is no rule here.

Part of it is the way of saying something established by professionals of this trade. It is not even a case of lingo usage - it is just their preferred way of saying things.

So, it has just so happened, that the preferred way of professional seamen is to say "идти", and the lay people mostly use "плыть". This is it. 
Dahl (Даль) in his dictionary says "Корабль идет, плывет".

People who are "байдарочники", will regard as wrong expression "поплывем на байдарках" - they will say "пойдем на байдарках". But it is a club thing: it is not wrong to say "поплывем", but will reveal you as a novice.


----------



## konung

Morzh, 
already fixed 'o' in "пароход" before your note. But thanks for the pointer.

As you said that is what the professionals have decided on as the lingo. And that is the explanation that I got from professionals not from the dictionary. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough. 

Also it may not be wrong to say "корабль идёт", but it's not the "popular / accepted/ right in this sense" way. As an example it is not wrong to eat uncooked raw meat, in some cultures and some professional athletes actually do eat it like that, but is it the "right way" of eating meat? I think that's what the language learner should strive for - to learn most common accepted way. Just to underscore my point, both are correct "Сударь, не будите ли вы столь любезны передать эту плату нашему столь уважемому возчему?" or "Молодой человек, передайте водителю деньги за проезд, пожалуйста!" Both are correct, but the first one will get you a few sideways looks at least, the second one is accepted by majority.   

Also:
"Steady she goes, arrrr!"  - as in praise for a yacht or ship that is going steadily with a submeaning of fast. I've heard that used by yachtsmen. Steady AS she goes - is  a command (Keep the sheep at the current speed and direction) that has nothing with the discussion. I think you misunderstood what I meant. Maybe I should have put an extra exclamation point.

"Хорошо идёт, зараза! Ё-хо-хо, и бутылка рома!" - As in "Look at  that yacht - she is going steadily, fast." I'm never going to say no to a shot of ГСМ, but I think you misunderstood me as well on this point. Also John Silver being John Silver would be in character to say "Ё-хо-хо, и бутылка рома!" and to call a ship affectionately "зараза".


----------



## morzh

>>>Also it may not be wrong to say "корабль идёт", but it's not the  "popular / accepted/ right in this sense" way. As an example it is not  wrong to eat uncooked raw meat, in some cultures and some professional  athletes actually do eat it like that, but is it the "right way" of  eating meat? I think that's what the language learner should strive for -  to learn most common accepted way.
>>>

The analogy is a little off. Otherwise you also may try quoting Old Testament, suggesting stoning for the sin of adultery, and then comparing it to the modern law, saying that we probably should not be stoning people for that, but rather reach a financial settlement after the divorce, and then saying "both ways are right, but one is better" .

We are talking about two ways of saying that are either right/wrong, or COMPARABLY right, the choice being a matter of preference in modern usage and not mater of one of them being a bit (or quite a bit) vintage.

Comparing apples to apples is always a good idea. Otherwise, we can add light bulbs and oranges with the result expressed as "lampol'sin", as one girl said it.\

---


The very fact that many people ask this question (I saw it asked in Gramota.ru and also all over the russian web in forums) today means that either choice is popular enough, hence the question about which one is right. Had one of them been really outdated or obviously seemed like a "less right choice" to the majority (raw meat vs cooked meat), the discussion would be easy and a simple rule explaining the right and the wrong usage would be quickly found.


----------



## konung

Morzh, persuaded.

It may be that my brain is indoctrinated to think that way and I was by some chance not surrounded by people who say it differently


----------



## se16teddy

morzh said:


> Well, if your native is English, then I have to get back to you with that: "идти" is "go" as well as "walk".


The fact that I still remember the rule that trains use идти over 30 years later shows, I think, that my teacher's witticism was effective teaching.


----------



## Christiano27

se16teddy said:


> The fact that I still remember the rule that trains use идти over 30 years later shows, I think, that my teacher's witticism was effective teaching.



Thanks man, I'm gonna remember it and teach it this way too! Makes sense to simplify it!


----------



## morzh

Christiano27 said:


> Thanks man, I'm gonna remember it and teach it this way too! Makes sense to simplify it!



Reminds me the way to remember the word "resupinate": "Read soup and ate".


----------

