# Humanity owes most of the discoveries to scientists



## admor82

*! مساء الخير لكل شخص*
​ 
Can you please help me to translate and say it right:



_Humanity owes most of the discoveries to scientists._


البَشَريةُ مُدينَةً بِمَعَظَم اِكْتِشَافَات لعُلَمَاء




!  شكرا جزيلا على مساعدتكم

 
​


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## Josh_

Hello admor82,

Welcome to the forums.

A few corrections to your sentence:
البَشَريةُ مُدينَةٌ بِمُعْظَم الاِكْتِشَافَات لعُلَمَاء
al-bashariyyatu mudiinatun bi-mu3dham al-iktishaafaati l-3ulamaa2in

(For others: it looks like there is a ي before the معظم but it is a ب with a kasra. It must look that way because of the font.) 


The word you chose, مُدينَةً , may work, but I think it lends itself more towards being in debt to someone (monetarily or likewise), not indebted to (obliged) to someone. Might I suggest the word *ممتنّ *(mumtannun).  For the sentence I would suggest:
*البشرية ممتن لعلماء  بمعظم الإكتشافات
*al-bashariyyatu mumtannun li-3ulamaa2in bi-mu3dham al-iktishaafaati

I'm sure others will add their opinions.


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## admor82

Thank you very much for your help  !


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## elroy

Welcome to the forums from me, too.  

Josh, a few additions to your corrections:



			
				Josh Adkins said:
			
		

> البَشَريةُ مَدينَةٌ بِمُعْظَم الاِكْتِشَافَات لعُلَمَاء
> al-bashariyyatu m*a*diinatun bi-mu3dham*i* *'*l-iktishaafaati l*i*-3ulamaa2in


 
As for your suggestion, I would prefer the adjective ممنون to ممتن, but in any case it should be feminine:



> *البشرية ممتنة لعلماء بمعظم الإكتشافات*
> al-bashariyyatu mumtann*at*un li-3ulamaa2in bi-mu3dham*i* *'*l-iktishaafaati




To preserve the word order of the original, I would have said


> *البشرية ممتنة بمعظم الإكتشافات لعلماء*
> _al-bashariyyatu mumtannatun bi-mu3dhami 'l-iktishaafaati li-3ulamaa2in_


 
And finally, here is my suggestion:
*البشرية ممنونة بمعظم الإكتشافات لعلماء*
_Al-bashariyyatu mamnuunatun bi-mu3dhami 'l-iktishaafaati li-3ulamaa2in_


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## admor82

Great forum, especially when it with Arabic native speaker's help!

*!شكرا لك يا إلروي*​


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## Josh_

I was thinking feminine when I wrote it, but I still wrote it masculine.  I can't believe I still make basic errors like this.


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## elroy

admor82 said:
			
		

> Great forum, especially when it with Arabic native speaker's help!
> 
> 
> *!شكرا لك يا إلروي*​


هذا من دواعي سروري يا أدمور. 
أرحب بأسئلتك دائماً وسأحاول أن أساعدك حيث كان بإمكاني ذلك. ​


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## cherine

Hi Guys,
I must disagree with your (mumtann), first because this word means grateful, second -which is maybe more important- is that we don't say ممتن بشىء This is a structure I've never seen before, and I'm not sure it's used this way.
We say أنا ممتنة لك لأنك علمتنى شيئًا or البشرية ممتنة للعلماء لما ابتكروه من اختراعات مفيدة or things like that.

As for مدينة we can also use the verb : البشرية تدين للعلماء بمعظم الاكتشافات or تدين بمعظم الاكتشافات للعلماء it's an expression very widely use. The verb يدين or the noun مدين don't necessarily have to do with money, like in English you can owe favours or immaterial things and not necessary money.

As for the sentence you've all given, I agree with you but have a little thing to add : I think it's better to say للعلماء instead of لعلماء 
I'll use the French equivalent to show what I mean, and hope to be able making myself clear :
L'humanité doit... aux savants للعلماء
L'humanité doit... à des savants لعلماء 
The indefinite form sounds a bit incorrect, as if there's something missing after the word علماء.

Just my opinion, I don't have a fixed rule to explain it.


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## elroy

cherine said:
			
		

> As for the sentence you've all given, I agree with you but have a little thing to add : I think it's better to say للعلماء


 
Yes, that occurred to me as well after I posted.  Both are correct but للعلماء does sound better (despite the fact that the English sentence has no article).


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## Josh_

cherine said:
			
		

> Hi Guys,
> I must disagree with your (mumtann), first because this word means grateful, second -which is maybe more important- is that we don't say ممتن بشىء This is a structure I've never seen before, and I'm not sure it's used this way.
> We say أنا ممتنة لك لأنك علمتنى شيئًا or البشرية ممتنة للعلماء لما ابتكروه من اختراعات مفيدة or things like that.
> 
> As for مدينة we can also use the verb : البشرية تدين للعلماء بمعظم الاكتشافات or تدين بمعظم الاكتشافات للعلماء it's an expression very widely use. The verb يدين or the noun مدين don't necessarily have to do with money, like in English you can owe favours or immaterial things and not necessary money.


I realize that it can be used to owe a favor or some other such immaterial thing, etc. But it can also mean "to owe a debt of gratitude to; to be grateful to; to be beholden to; to be obliged to?" That is the meaning I was best trying to represent.

The Hans Wehr lists ممتن as "indebted, much obliged."



> As for the sentence you've all given, I agree with you but have a little thing to add : I think it's better to say للعلماء instead of لعلماء
> I'll use the French equivalent to show what I mean, and hope to be able making myself clear :
> L'humanité doit... aux savants للعلماء
> L'humanité doit... à des savants لعلماء
> The indefinite form sounds a bit incorrect, as if there's something missing after the word علماء.
> 
> Just my opinion, I don't have a fixed rule to explain it.


I also thought that للعلماء sounded better.


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## cherine

Josh Adkins said:
			
		

> I realize that it can be used to owe a favor or some other such immaterial thing, etc. But it can also mean "to owe a debt of gratitude to; to be grateful to; to be beholden to; to be obliged to?" That is the meaning I was best trying to represent.


Yes, precisely. It's just like in English, we don't necesarily owe money but immaterial things as well.



> The Hans Wehr lists ممتن as "indebted, much obliged."


Yes. But I was talking about the use or the structure not the meaning. Humaning is sure ممتنة للعلماء but we can't say ممتنة بـ this is not a correct structure (at least to me)


Also one more thing that I forgot to say : the word اكتشافات doesn't have a hamza.


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## Josh_

Thank you for the confirmation, Cherine. ana raakhar thought that بـ seemed strange. I wasn't quite sure how to word it, but I toyed around with:

*البشرية ممتنة للعلماء من معظم اكتشافاتهم
**البشرية ممتنة للعلماء بسبب معظم اكتشافاتهم

*Which I'm sure aren't right either.


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## elroy

I don't know about ممتن (I'm not too familiar with the word), but ممنون (which was my suggestion) can definitely take بـ.



> *البشرية ممتنة للعلماء من معظم اكتشافاتهم*
> *البشرية ممتنة للعلماء بسبب معظم اكتشافاتهم*


 
The first of these is definitely wrong; the second, if not wrong, certainly sounds awkward.

If I had to choose a preposition I would probably choose لـ or maybe على.

Remember, though, that بشرية is singular so it would be اكتشافاتها.


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## Josh_

elroy said:
			
		

> Remember, though, that بشرية is singular so it would be اكتشافاتها.


I was referring to the scientists -- their discoveries.

"Humanity is grateful to scientists because of their discoveries."


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## elroy

Josh Adkins said:
			
		

> I was referring to the scientists -- their discoveries.
> 
> "Humanity is grateful to scientists because of their discoveries."


 
Oh, ok. I thought you meant to say "Humanity owes most of *its* discoveries to scientists."

In that case, the version with بسبب doesn't sound so bad but I'd prefer لأجل.

(But why did you say معظم if your English sentence doesn't have "most"?)


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## Josh_

I wrote the sentence fast.  But actually, in English, it sounds better than:

"Humanity is grateful to scientists because of most of their discoveries."

Would my Arabic sentence sound better without mu3zam in it?


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## Josh_

elroy said:
			
		

> I don't know about ممتن (I'm not too familiar with the word), but ممنون (which was my suggestion) can definitely take بـ.


According to the Hans Wehr both forms can take بـ . The other preposition is على . Maybe لـ can be used also, but it is not listed. An example is _to grant someone something_ -- يمتن على شخص بشيء .  The way I was using it was wrong.  That's why I thought the بـ seemed odd in the sentence.


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## elroy

Josh Adkins said:
			
		

> Would my Arabic sentence sound better without mu3zam in it?


 
Yes, it would.  I think it's because it sounds kind of strange to be grateful to someone for "most of" what he/she has done, no matter what the language is.


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