# Polak, Slovak in Italian



## francisgranada

Hi!

What is the reason for the double "cc" in the Italian words _polacco _and _slovacco _?

_Polacco _(Polish) is surely an older term in Italian  than _slovacco _(Slovak) for historical reasons, so the latter might be influenced by the former. However - in my opinion - the simple "c" would not violate any Italian phonetic rule, plus, in Polish and Slovak, these words are written and pronounced with a simple "k": _Polak_, _Slovák_.

Thanks in advance.


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## danielstan

A complementary question is:
- would a hypotethical Italian word _Polaco _be pronunced different than _Polacco_?

I don't understand why Italian _occhio _or _vecchio _are spelled with "cc", as I cannot imagine if they could be distinguished in pronunciation from 
hypotethical words _ochio_, _vechio_.


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## francisgranada

danielstan said:


> ...  would a hypotethical Italian word _Polaco _be pronunced different than _Polacco_?


 Yes, the same way like  e.g. _eco _and _ecco _are pronounced differently.


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## frugnaglio

Hi! We would need to know when this word was born in Italian, and where. In some regional accents/dialets/local languages final consonants, especially in loanwords, are always realized as geminated consonants. This is the reason of _snob_ -> _snobbare_, _stop_ -> _stoppare_, etc. In my native (Tuscan) accent I pronounce a geminated final consonant in _snob_ and _stop_ even in isolation. So to my ear _polak_ -> _polacco_ is perfectly natural, while _polaco_ feels like a hypercorrectism.


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## Nino83

danielstan said:


> would a hypotethical Italian word _Polaco _be pronunced different than _Polacco_?


Yes. In Italian consonant length is phonemic. 


frugnaglio said:


> This is the reason of _snob_ -> _snobbare_, _stop_ -> _stoppare_, etc


 
For example: 
click > cliccare, badge > beggiare, break > breccare (tennis), match > mecciare, snob > snobbare and so on.


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## berndf

Nino83 said:


> click > cliccare, badge > beggiare, break > breccare (tennis), match > mecciare, snob > snobbare and so on.


Could this be in order to preserve the integrity of the foreign word? If not geminated this would drag the final consonant of the borrowed word into the first syllable of the Italian ending: _*cli-care, *be-giare, *bre-care, *me-ciare, *sno-bare_. And that might sound a bit odd.


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## frugnaglio

berndf said:


> Could this be in order to preserve the integrity of the foreign word? If not geminated this would drag the final consonant of the borrowed word into the first syllable of the Italian ending: _*cli-care, *be-giare, *bre-care, *me-ciare, *sno-bare_. And that might sound a bit odd.


I don't think this is the reason. From the English verb 'to post' (on forums) you have _postare_, split as _po-stare_ traditionally and _pos-tare_ phonetically, but no one finds it odd.


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## Nino83

berndf said:


> Could this be in order to preserve the integrity of the foreign word?


The doubling of the final consonant happens only with some single consonants at the end of the word..
Cover > coverizzare, mix > mixare, sprint > sprintare.
Other words are: tag > taggare, ban > bannare, chat > chattare. 
I think it's a phonetic matter.
The interesting thing is that the consonant is doubled in back-office (beccòffis) but single in backup (becàp). In the first case there are two words so the stop is in final position while the second one is seen as a single word.


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## bearded

francisgranada said:


> in the Italian words _polacco _and _slovacco _


I'll leave it to experts to discuss the origin of the double consonant.  I just wish to advise that the phenomenon is not limited to those two terms:
there is also _valacco, cosacco _and (with no reference to a people) _vigliacco = _coward (analogy?)
Besides, let me remark that most 'italianized' (often from informatic English) verbs mentioned by Nino really sound horrible to the average Italian ear, and I hope they will not be adopted into the 'normal' Italian language altogether.

sprintare
taggare
beggiare
bannare
...
Gooseflesh!!

Concerning _polacco, _please note that Germans have _Polacke _(derogatory name) with ck corresponding to Italian double c.


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## frugnaglio

bearded man said:


> sprintare
> taggare
> beggiare
> bannare
> ...
> Gooseflesh!!


The best one is _scannare_!


Nino83 said:


> The doubling of the final consonant happens only with some single consonants at the end of the word..
> Cover > coverizzare, mix > mixare, sprint > sprintare.


The x in _mixare_ couldn't be doubled (mixxare???), and it's pronounced double anyway (mikksare), and in _sprintare_ there's nothing that could be doubled either (sprinttare?????). As for _cover_, I think it has to do with the fact that in Italian words stressed on the antepenult with an open penultimate syllable are exceedengly rare (arista, polizza and nothing else?), so it would be more natural to close it like _covere_ than like _coverre_, and this trait carries over to other forms like _coverizzare_. If _polacco_ were stressed on the first syllable it would surely be _polaco_.


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## Nino83

frugnaglio said:


> As for _cover_, I think it has to do with the fact that in Italian words stressed on the antepenult with an open penultimate syllable are exceedengly rare (arista, polizza and nothing else?), so it would be more natural to close it like _covere_ than like _coverre_, and this trait carries over to other forms like _coverizzare_.


It seems to me that the "r" is not doubled. For example : spoiler > spoilerare, broker > brokerare.
Also those words where the last syllable is stressed, like dossier > dossierare.


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## frugnaglio

Nino83 said:


> It seems to me that the "r" is not doubled. For example : spoiler > spoilerare, broker > brokerare.
> Also those words where the last syllable is stressed, like dossier > dossierare.


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## francisgranada

bearded man said:


> ... I just wish to advise that the phenomenon is not limited to those two terms: there is also _valacco, cosacco ... _


Yes, but also e.g. _permiaco _(at least in the form_ lingua permiaca_), which is also an ethnonym (supposedly from Russian _permj*ak*_, where the ending -_ak _etymologically corresponds to -_ak _in _Polak_). 





> ...Concerning _polacco, _please note that Germans have _Polacke _(derogatory name) with ck corresponding to Italian double c.


 It would be interesting to know whether the word _polacco _comes directly from the Polish _Polak_, or if it is rather an italianized loanword from German _Polack(e)_***.  The today's derogatory meaning of _Polacke_ might not necessarily be present in the past, see e.g. the surnames _Polack/Pollack_  that are not so rare.

As to  s_nobbare, stoppare, bannare, _... I think it's not exactly the same case. I myself, even if not a native Italian, I "feel" that in Italian these words sound natural with the double consonant. Perhaps, because they are monosyllabic and ending in a consonant, that has to be phonetically resolved somehow  ...

*** See e.g. the French _Polonais _which comes from _Polonie _and not directly from _Polak_. So - in theory - I can imagine e.g.  _polonese _also in Italian (like e.g.  _ungherese _from _Ungheria_) or _polono _(from the medieval Latin _polonus_).


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## frugnaglio

francisgranada said:


> Yes, but also e.g. _permiaco _(at least in the form_ lingua permiaca_), which is also an ethnonym (supposedly from Russian _permj*ak*_, where the ending -_ak _etymologically corresponds to -_ak _in _Polak_).


I don't know the word, but I google the plural form, since it would allow to distinguish between _permìaco_ (with a likely plural _permiaci_) and _permiàco_ (with a likely plural _permiachi_). I found a few _permiaci_, a few _permiachi_, and huge lot of _permia*cc*hi_.


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## danielstan

I remember a scene from the TV series Gomorrah (spoken in Napolitan) where a guy called another guy over a fence (thus at long distance).
I heard 3 times the name Peppe pronounced as:
- Pep-pe!
The stop between the 2 PPs was clearly pronounced.

And at Roma in metro I heard clearly the recorded voice of a lady:
- Prossima fermata: Garbatella (pronounced: Gar-ba-tel-la, with a clear double LL)


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## bearded

francisgranada said:


> or if it is rather an italianized loanword from German _Polack(e)_***.


That's a sensible surmise.

As for _Permiaco, _most Italians would pronounce it with stress on the i , and I feel it is a different case. I know that some write the plural people's name as Permiacchi, but that seems to be a recent change - which makes my ear feel uncomfortable - and I stick to the traditional _Permìachi _(noun) and _permìaci _(adjective), as frugnaglio says.


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## bearded

@ danielstan,
It is no mystery that in Italy (except for some regional dialects) we pronounce double consonants very clearly, by 'prolonging' the sound. There have even been threads on this.
In some cases, there is a specific semantic distinction according to pronunciation. A crucial example: _ano _(= anus) vs. _anno _(= year).


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## francisgranada

@ frugnaglio and bearded man
You are certainly right (I myself should also pronounce spontaneously _permiaco _with the stress on "i" in Italian if I knew not the origin and meaning of this word).


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## bearded

francisgranada said:


> @ frugnaglio and bearded man
> You are certainly right (I myself should also pronounce spontaneously _permiaco _with the stress on "i" in Italian if I knew not the origin and meaning of this word).


I do pronounce it that way even _knowing_ the origin and meaning.


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## francisgranada

An idea: doesn't the double cc in -acco "serve" to prevent the possible lenition of the intervocalic -c-? (i.e. for example *_polaco _could become *_polago; _see_ lago, ago, etc._). Something similar happens with _b_ versus _v_. We have e.g. _ebbi, debbo_ but _avete, devo _etc. In other words, to prevent _b_ to become _v_, it is "reinforced", i.e. doubled. 





bearded man said:


> I do pronounce it that way even _knowing_ the origin and meaning.


I see . (In this case I realize that the "i" in _permiaco [<permjak] _is originally a consonant, not a vowel).


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## bearded

francisgranada said:


> *_polaco _


Dear Francis, an ending -aco for  ethnic designations does not exist in Italian anyway, to my knowledge, and would sound bad. -Acco exists, although seldom.. (and -ìaco is a common adjective ending, from Greek -_iakòs_).
And sorry, but the idea that a certain pronunciation is adopted just to 'prevent' it from becoming a different one, does not seem plausible to me.  As you are aware, in pronunciation matters 'usage is king'.


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## Nino83

francisgranada said:


> What is the reason for the double "cc" in the Italian words _polacco _and _slovacco _?


The Spanish and Portuguese _polaco_ and the Occitan _polac_, with an intervocalic /k/ (instead of /g/) make me think that the source is the same.
As for _Slovak_, we have _eslovaco_ in Spanish and Portuguese and _eslovac_ in Catalan and Occitan.
According to a Potuguese dictionary polaco derives from the German _Polacke_ and eslovaco from the French _slovaque_.
According to a Spanish dictionary polaco derives from the Polish _polak_.
According to Treccani polacco derives from the Polish _polak_.

If we speak about the suffix _-acco_:


> 1048. -acco, -ecco, -icco, -occo, -ucco. L'esistenza di una tale catena di suffissi fu già dimostrata da Horning (ZRPh 19, 170 sgg.; 20, 335 sgg.). Una serie come questa si può dedurre con sufficiente certezza soprattutto per le lingue romanze occidentali, cfr. spagnolo verraco 'verro d'allevamento', sobaco 'ascella', hermanico, spagnolo settentrionale tierruca, Marìuca, francese dialettale gouttiche, meniche, potiche, manioche, foiroche, merluche, menuche. L'origine di questi suffissi è ancora poco chiara. La loro origine non sembra essere latina (cfr. Meyer-Lùbke, Gramm. 2, § 499) '. Si può pensare al celtico, cfr. nomi di persona galli Aveticcus, Belliccus, Caticcus, Germaniccus, Esuccus, Biatuccus. Ma gli esempi che potremmo citare per l'italiano, non sono tutti nello stesso modo convincenti. Né sempre chiara è la funzione, che sembra essere sostanzialmente diminuitiva.


Rholfs, Grammatica storica della lingua italiana e dei suoi dialetti, vol. 3, sintassi e formazione delle parole, p. 377
It seems it is not of Latin origin. Its origin is uncertain.
In this case it comes from the Polish -ak (via German?).

Another example is the word bistecca from the English _beefsteak_. In Portuguese it is _bisteca_.
Others are: _stambecco_ (from German Steinbock), _blocco_ (from _Block_) which is _bloco_ in Portuguese, _leccare_ (from _lecken_).


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## francisgranada

bearded man said:


> Dear Francis, an ending -aco for  ethnic designations does not exist in Italian anyway, to my knowledge, and would sound bad... the idea that a certain pronunciation is adopted just to 'prevent' it from becoming a different one, seems not plausible to me.


Of course. I haven't  expressed myself clearly enough: I was just speculating about the possible phonetic reason/etymology of the double -_cc _in the existing ending -_acco. _(I didn't want to say that this pronunciation was adopted _in order_  [or _appunto_] to prevent it  somehow from becoming a different one).  

@ Nino83
Thank you for the detailed and excellent answer (post #22) !


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## bibax

As a Ceco I feel ripped off. I want double c, too.


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## Nino83

bibax said:


> As a Ceco I feel ripped off. I want double c, too.


There is also _greco_ (Greek) but it comes from Latin _graecus_ and Ancient Greek _ραικός_ (/ɡra͜i.kós/ → /ɣrɛ.ˈkos/ → /ɣre.ˈkos/).
Cèco derives from the Czech _čech_ /ʧɛx/ and normally the consonant [x] at the end of the word is doubled in words of Germanic origin like_ brechen _(Longobardic and Old High German _brehhan_)_ > sbreccare_, _reich _(Longobardic and Old High German _rihhi_) _> ricco_.


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## Angelo di fuoco

bearded man said:


> Concerning _polacco, _please note that Germans have _Polacke _(derogatory name) with ck corresponding to Italian double c.



In German *Polake would have a long tonic a.



bearded man said:


> That's a sensible surmise.
> 
> As for _Permiaco, _most Italians would pronounce it with stress on the i , and I feel it is a different case. I know that some write the plural people's name as Permiacchi, but that seems to be a recent change - which makes my ear feel uncomfortable - and I stick to the traditional _Permìachi _(noun) and _permìaci _(adjective), as frugnaglio says.



The law is that no Italian word with stress on the antepenultimate syllable has double consonants between the two last vowels.


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## Nino83

Angelo di fuoco said:


> The law is that no Italian word with stress on the antepenultimate syllable has double consonants


Or the other way around. If the penultimate syllable is not heavy the stress falls on the antepenultimate syllable.


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## OBrasilo

There's also _austriaco_ (Austrian), stressed on the i. It seems to me like the general rule is, the c is doubled is the -aco is stressed, but remains single if it's not. I can imagine if the word for Polish/Pole was borrowed from Slovenian or Russian, it would have been _poliaco_, stressed on the i (much like permják has become permìaco), but since it was borrowed from either Polish or German, there was no i to fall back to, therefore per what seems to be the rule to me, the c had to be doubled (or if it was borrowed from German, the c was doubled in the first place, ie. Polacke).


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