# mögen, möchten



## Artrella

Guten Morgen Leute!

Mein Lehrerin hat denn (??) *mögen* ist the infinitive nicht* mochten* gesagt.  Aber wir "mochten" als infinitive nutzen.  Warum?

Now my translation to English so you can understand it " My teacher has said that "mögen" is the infinitive and not "mochten".  But we use "mochten" as infinitive.  Why?

Danke!


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## Whodunit

Artrella said:
			
		

> Guten Morgen Leute!
> 
> Mein*e* Lehrerin hat gesagt*,* denn *dass* *"mögen"* *der* *I*nfinitive ist und nicht* "mochten"*.  Aber wir *benutzen* "mochten" als *I*nfinitive. Warum?
> 
> Now my translation to English so you can understand it " My teacher has said that "mögen" is the infinitive and not "mochten".  But we use "mochten" as infinitive.  Why?
> 
> Danke!



Well, I've even already asked myself the same question. Let me explain it and feel free to correct me:

Just the conjugation:

mögen
ich mag
du magst
er/sie/es mag
wie mögen
ihr mögt
sie mögen
Mög(e)!
Mögt!

Now the subjunctive present tense:

ich möchte
du möchtest
er/sie/es möchte
wir möchten
ihr möchtet
sie möchtet

The last one—subjunctive past tense:

ich mochte
du mochtest
er/sie/es mochte
wir mochten
ihr mochtet
sie mochtet

We almost always use the subjunctive in the present tense, because it's gotten colloquial:

Ich möchte ein Brot.
Möchtest du etwas.

The same in English:

I'd like some bread.
Would you like something?

But we also often use the simple forms:

Ich mag dich.
Magst du dieses Auto?

The same in English:

I like you.
Do you like this car?

I hope you know the difference now. BTW, never use the subjunctive in the past tense. It sounds a bit too elevated.


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## sehltahn

Hi Art,

I started learning German a year ago, and we learnt "möchten" as an infinitiv. Just as Who has kindly taught us, the subjunctive tense of mögen is used as "I'd like to...". This is a very common expression, but you don't usually learn subjunctive tense in first year! 

The point is that, if you look at the subjunctive form of mögen, it works just as if you were conjugating "möchten" in present tense... which lets you learn the expression "I/you/he... would like..." without messing up (until you learn that the teacher told you a lie and that you have learnt a verb that doesn't exist  )

Hope it helps!


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## Whodunit

sehltahn said:
			
		

> Hi Art,
> 
> I started learning German a year ago, and we learnt "möchten" as an infinitiv. Just as Who has kindly taught us, the subjunctive tense of mögen is used as "I'd like to...". This is a very common expression, but you don't usually learn subjunctive tense in first year!
> 
> The point is that, if you look at the subjunctive form of mögen, it works just as if you were conjugating "möchten" in present tense... which lets you learn the expression "I/you/he... would like..." without messing up (until you learn that the teacher told you a lie and that you have learnt a verb that doesn't exist  )
> 
> Hope it helps!



"Möchten" is NOT an infinitive. Since it isn't listed in any dictionary, you can't define it as an infinitive.

But as you pointed out correctly, the subjunctive form is really conjungated like an indicative one.

Ich schlaf*e*/möcht*e*
Du schläf*st*/möchte*st*
Er/sie/es schläft/möchte (   exception)
Wir schlaf*en*/möcht*en*
Ihr schlaf*t*/möchte*t*
Sie schlaf*en*/möcht*en*.


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## Artrella

sehltahn said:
			
		

> Hi Art,
> 
> I started learning German a year ago, and we learnt "möchten" as an infinitiv. Just as Who has kindly taught us, the subjunctive tense of mögen is used as "I'd like to...". This is a very common expression, but you don't usually learn subjunctive tense in first year!
> 
> The point is that, if you look at the subjunctive form of mögen, it works just as if you were conjugating "möchten" in present tense... which lets you learn the expression "I/you/he... would like..." without messing up (until you learn that the teacher told you a lie and that you have learnt a verb that doesn't exist  )
> 
> Hope it helps!



Hi Sehltahn,

Well, I started German a year ago too!!  The teacher said "mögen" is the infinitive but in the books it appears "möchte".... and now I understand after Who's explanations... but...hummm.. it's strange to have an infinitive which in fact is a subjunctive!

As regards "I would like", this year we have learnt so far to say this:  "Ich würde gern..." so?? What's the difference between this and "Ich möchte"... I know that we use "´möchte" in this case "Ich mag Pizza"... so does this "mag" belong to "mögen" or to "möchten"???  Ohhh, now I'm a mess!!

Hilfe, bitte Who oder Ralf!!!  Gaer!!!


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## Artrella

> We almost always use the subjunctive in the present tense, because it's gotten colloquial:
> 
> Ich möchte ein Brot.
> Möchtest du etwas.
> 
> The same in English:
> 
> I'd like some bread.
> Would you like something?




But Who, "I would like some bread" is a conditional not the subjunctive.

The subjunctive is this >>> If I were you /I would go there >>> 1st part= subjunctive / 2nd part= conditional


So if "möchte" is conditional ... what about "Würde"?


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## gaer

Artrella said:
			
		

> But Who, "I would like some bread" is a conditional not the subjunctive.
> 
> The subjunctive is this >>> If I were you /I would go there >>> 1st part= subjunctive / 2nd part= conditional
> 
> 
> So if "möchte" is conditional ... what about "Würde"?


I think I can answer your questions and perhaps clear up a few others, but I will need to think a bit and prepare (now), okay? I'll be back…

Gaer


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## gaer

I hope this is not too complicated or more of an explanation than you asked for.

Normally the German subjunctive tense is not taught at first, and for good reason. It is complicated.

Theoretically, it really isn't hard. There are two forms. Different books label them differently. Books written in different languages (describing German grammar) label them differently.

Here's a regular verb, lernen

Present tense:

ich lerne 
du lernst
er lernt
wir lernen
ihr lernt
sie; Sie lernen

Subjunctive I:

ich lerne
du lernest
er ***lerne
wir lernen
ihr lernet
sie; Sie lernen

Do you see how close they are? The one that I added "***" to is the one that gets used all the time in reporting.

If you read a newspaper in Germany, you will see this form used over and over again, and it merely means that someone is reporting that someone else said something. For the most part, you can forget about it, for now. In German, this form makes it clear that you are not reading someone's direct quote. It elmininates the constant repitition, in English, of "he said…". So you see: er lerne, sie sage, er verstehe, sie fahre. This is just reporting that he is learning/learns, she is saying/says, he is understanding/understands, she is traveling/travels. The verb form lets you know IMMEDIATELY that this may not be true, that someone else is reporting things. Some of my examples are probably poor, but the principle is sound. I really need Who or Ralf to help explain this better.

And I would look out for "sei", because if you don't know it is subjuntive one of "sein", you will NEVER find it in a dictionary and think that you are reading a mistyping of "sie". Or something else is wrong. This simply means the same thing as "er ist" in reporting. Ist is replaced by "sei", same reason, to make it clear that someone is reporting. Er sagte, sie sei froh. He said that she is happy. "Sei" is used because she didn't say that. HE said that about HER. I don't ever use this subjunctive form, but it's VERY common.

Subjuntive II is much more important for those learning basics, and for regular verbs, it's the same as past:

Past tense:

ich lernte
du lerntest
er lernte
wir lernten
ihr lerntet
sie; Sie lernten

Subjuntive II:

ich lernte
du lerntest
er lernte
wir lernten
ihr lerntet
sie; Sie lernten

But the meaning is different, which you can get from context, and it's really similar to English in some cases:

I learned it. (Past)
If I learned it (subjuntive or conditional or English, much like subjuntive II)

Don't worry about the terms. You get the idea. The verb is the same, but now the tense is different. Context!

Ralf and Who, were ARE you??? <gulp>

The problem with "mögen" is that it is irregular. The past tense and subjunctive II are not the same when the past tense is irregular. Irregular verbs change past tense to subjuntive II by adding an umlaut, when it is possible:

ich mag (I like)
ich mochte (I liked)
ich möchte (I MIGHT like)

And the reason this one verb is introduced in this subjuntive form is that it is so common. It's often translated as "I'd like", but the point is that it is polite. You could also think of it as "I might like…", and you are unsure what you want but rather you are expressing politeness.

Now, because any tense can and must be conjugated (as in Spanish), you learn how to conjugate the past tense, but you add the umlaut, which is where you get these:

ich möchte, I would like
du möchtest, you would like
er möchte, he would like
wir möchten, we would like
ihr möchtet, you [all] would like
sie; Sie möchten,they (or you formal) would like

I believe you will see it most commonly in these forms:

Ich möchte, wir möchten

And if you get nothing else, here's the big point. It is EXACTLY the same thing as saying that you WANT something. You are not really asking for something. It's merely 1,000 times more polite.

Ich will eine Tasse Tee. (I want a cup of tea, demand, very rude. A king would say this. Someone very angry might say it. I told you what I want: I WANT a cup of tea NOW, you incompetent fool!

Ich möchte eine Tasse Tee. (I would like, I'd like, I might like a cup of tea.)

Does this help? Because I almost said "f--- it" and deleted it, because it is so simple and clear to me but so HARD to explain.  

And I did indeed delete the first try to post this, because it contained a huge mistake. There may be more mistakes. Suddenly I'm glad I teach music and not language!

Gaer


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## gaer

whodunit said:
			
		

> "Möchten" is NOT an infinitive. Since it isn't listed in any dictionary, you can't define it as an infinitive.
> 
> But as you pointed out correctly, the subjunctive form is really conjungated like an indicative one.
> 
> Ich schlaf*e*/möcht*e*
> Du schläf*st*/möchte*st*
> Er/sie/es schläft/möchte (  exception)
> Wir schlaf*en*/möcht*en*
> Ihr schlaf*t*/möchte*t*
> Sie schlaf*en*/möcht*en*.


Who,

I hope I'm not screwing up, but wouldn't it be easier to say that you just take the past tense and add the umlaut?

ich     mochte
du      mochtest
er      mochte
wir     mochten
ihr     mochtet
sie; Sie mochten

I'm not stating a fact. I'm asking, because it's been a LONG, LONG time since I thought about this. 

Man, now I have a headache. Seriously. 

Gaer


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## mnzrob

Wow, what I thought was my perfect understanding of these words just went down the drain. I never learned German in school, so I don't know the grammar rules and so forth, so I apologize if I ask some dumb questions that might seem obvious to you.

Regarding mögen und möchten, they are two completely different words to me.
Mögen = to like, as in I like pizza - Ich mag Pizza.
Möchten = to want, as in I want to eat pizza - Ich möchte Pizza essen. I have heard people say, Ich mag ein Stück Pizza, to say that they want a piece of pizza, but it's still a different word.

So I'm not sure I have a question, I just never knew these two words were actually one word.
Confusing language.

Rob


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## gaer

mnzrob said:
			
		

> Wow, what I thought was my perfect understanding of these words just went down the drain. I never learned German in school, so I don't know the grammar rules and so forth, so I apologize if I ask some dumb questions that might seem obvious to you.
> 
> Regarding mögen und möchten, they are two completely different words to me.
> Mögen = to like, as in I like pizza - Ich mag Pizza.
> Möchten = to want, as in I want to eat pizza - Ich möchte Pizza essen. I have heard people say, Ich mag ein Stück Pizza, to say that they want a piece of pizza, but it's still a different word.
> 
> So I'm not sure I have a question, I just never knew these two words were actually one word.
> Confusing language.
> 
> Rob


Rob, mochten (past tense of mögen) is no weirder than any irregular verb in English that changes stem. And adding a vowel change (umlaut) is just a different way of adding the concept of "maybe".

French does much the same thing and is even worse. I think Spanish does the same thing. I'm talking about using subjunctive forms. English is unusual, really, since IT is really the "oddball" language. 

G


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## Whodunit

Artrella said:
			
		

> But Who, "I would like some bread" is a conditional not the subjunctive.
> 
> The subjunctive is this >>> If I were you /I would go there >>> 1st part= subjunctive / 2nd part= conditional
> 
> 
> So if "möchte" is conditional ... what about "Würde"?



Well, let me point one one fact: The conditional is very common in German, unlike the subjunctive past. Let me explain why (and why also in English):

Wenn du kämest, würde ich bleiben. (Wenn + subjunctive past, + conditional [würde + infinitive)]
If you came, I would stay. (If + subjunctive past, + contitional [would + infinitive])

BUT: (since the conditional is more familiar/common in German than the old subjunctive, you cannot use following):

Wenn du l(i)eses/lasest    lesen würdest   , würde ich dich verstehen. (Wenn + conditional form [but no conditional clause], + conditional)

If you read [pron.: red - not reed], I would understand you. (If + subjunctive past, + conditional)

As you can see, there're still some verbs that have a subjunctive past form, but they're decreasing more and more: kommen (ich käme), sein (ich wäre), schlafen (ich schliefe), haben (ich hätte), gehen (ich ginge) [can't remeber more].

But be aware that the subjunctive or conditional is very often used in a conjunctive clause with dass, e.g.:

Subjunctive past: Er sagte, dass ich käme. (He said I would come)
Indicative past: Er sagte, dass ich kam. (He said I was coming).
Subjunctive/Indicative present: Er sagt, dass ich komme. (He said I'm coming.)

I hope you understand it. If not, I know why! Because in Spanish, there're still used subjunctive forms that don't really exist in German. The same goes for French. We almost always have to translate them with "würde + infinitive". Time for an example?

Si Jean avait trouvé de l'eau, il aurait pu arroser ses plantes.
Wenn Johannes Wasser gefunden hatte, hätte er seine Pflanzen gießen können (   nicht würde er seine Pflanzen gegossen haben können   ).
If John had found some water, he could have watered his plants.
Si hubiera hallido el agua, habría podido regar sus plantas.

Okay, the Spanish sentence was just a try and will make you laugh, Art. But I think you could have understood it if I were fluent in Spanish.


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> I really need Who or Ralf to help explain this better.
> 
> Ralf and Who, w*h*ere ARE you??? <gulp>



I'm here. I really think there's nothing to be added. You explained it perfectly.


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## gaer

whodunit said:
			
		

> I'm here. I really think there's nothing to be added. You explained it perfectly.


Thanks, Who. As you know, there comes a point when it becomes automatic. For me these forms are so easy to read, I don't think about them. And some of them are so common, I can even write them with no trouble.

Although there may not be many verbs that use what I call subjuntive II today, the ones that ARE used are used SO commonly. It's much like irregular verbs. Most verbs are regular, but most of the most COMMON verbs are irregular.


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## Artrella

Danke vielmals Who!! Your explanation is really GREAT!! I've printed all the thread and now will read it more carefully,,, and then I will post my questions!!!


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## gaer

Who,

I just wanted to mention another strange parallel between German and English.

I'm using your sentence, but I'm adding one idea:

Hätte Johannes Wasser gefunden, [dann] hätte er seine Pflanzen gießen können.

Had John found, [then] he would have been able to water his flowers.

We can't do the second "hätte", but we can to the first one. 

Gaer


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## Artrella

gaer said:
			
		

> Who,
> 
> I just wanted to mention another strange parallel between German and English.
> 
> I'm using your sentence, but I'm adding one idea:
> 
> Hätte Johannes Wasser gefunden, [dann] hätte er seine Pflanzen gießen können.
> 
> Had John found, [then] he would have been able to water his flowers.
> 
> *We can't do the second "hätte", but we can to the first one*.
> 
> Gaer



Morgen Gaer  

I don't understand what you meant by the sentence in bold type...Please, could you explain this?  Danke!


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## Whodunit

Artrella said:
			
		

> Morgen Gaer
> 
> I don't understand what you meant by the sentence in bold type...Please, could you explain this?  Danke!



In German we can say:

Wenn Johannes Wasser gefunden hatte, hätte er seine Pflanzen gießen können.

AND we oftne TEND to say:

Hätte Johannes Wasser gefunden, hätte er seine Pflanzen gießen können.

In English you have following choices:

If John had found some water, he could have watered his plants.

AND (what I didn't even know):

Had John found some water, he would have been able to water his flowers.

BUT never:

Had John found some water, then he had been able to water his flowers.
(Hätte Johannes Wasser gefunden, dann hätte er in der Lage sein können, seine Pflanzen zu gießen.)

Do you understand now? You will understand it, if you know how German conditional clauses are working.


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## Artrella

whodunit said:
			
		

> In German we can say:
> 
> Wenn Johannes Wasser gefunden hatte, hätte er seine Pflanzen gießen können.
> 
> AND we oftne TEND to say:
> 
> Hätte Johannes Wasser gefunden, hätte er seine Pflanzen gießen können.
> 
> In English you have following choices:
> 
> If John had found some water, he could have watered his plants.
> 
> AND (what I didn't even know):
> 
> Had John found some water, he would have been able to water his flowers.
> 
> BUT never:
> 
> Had John found some water, then he had been able to water his flowers.
> (Hätte Johannes Wasser gefunden, dann hätte er in der Lage sein können, seine Pflanzen zu gießen.)
> 
> Do you understand now? You will understand it, if you know how German conditional clauses are working.




Hee hee who!!  Im at school now and I will have my German class soon... this will be nice to discuss with meine Lehrerin... Danke!! Your explanation is great!!


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## gaer

Artrella said:
			
		

> Morgen Gaer
> 
> I don't understand what you meant by the sentence in bold type...Please, could you explain this? Danke!


 
We can't do the second "hätte", but we can *do* the first one.

Stupid typo. I meant that English can use one word to show subjuntive in the first dependent clause, as in German, but we can't do it that way in the second clause, the independent one.

And even here I left out a word:

Had John found *water*, [then] he would have been able to water his flowers.

If you still have questions, I'll try again later. I don't know where my head was last night. STUPID mistakes.

G


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## gaer

whodunit said:
			
		

> In German we can say:
> 
> Wenn Johannes Wasser gefunden hatte, hätte er seine Pflanzen gießen können.
> 
> AND we oftne TEND to say:
> 
> Hätte Johannes Wasser gefunden, hätte er seine Pflanzen gießen können.
> 
> In English you have following choices:
> 
> If John had found some water, he could have watered his plants.
> 
> AND (what I didn't even know):
> 
> Had John found some water, he would have been able to water his flowers.
> 
> BUT never:
> 
> Had John found some water, then he had been able to water his flowers.
> (Hätte Johannes Wasser gefunden, dann hätte er in der Lage sein können, seine Pflanzen zu gießen.)
> 
> Do you understand now? You will understand it, if you know how German conditional clauses are working.


<whew>
THANKS Who! You fixed all my stupid mistakes and explained everything perfectly! 

Gaer


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## srpelo

These are two different modal auxiliaries (verbs)
mögen means "like", while
möchten means "would like".


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## gaer

srpelo said:


> These are two different modal auxiliaries (verbs)
> mögen means "like", while
> möchten means "would like".


Actually, they are two different modal verbs.

Möchten is a verb conjugation of mögen

Konjunktiv II Präsens 
ich möchte
du möchtest
er möchte
sie möchte
wir *möchten*
ihr möchtet
sie *möchten*
Sie *möchten*

Gaer


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## rnozz

Hi, I would like to know whether or not the verb "möchten" has a past form. You know these 2 verbs are really hard to distinguish (mögen and möchten) I carefully read what you wrote and I mostly understood. I just wanted to make sure.


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## berndf

The verb form _möcht- _has acquired a special idiomatic meaning but it still is formally a past subjunctive (Konjunktiv II) and can still be used as such. And it only exists in these forms.


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## Hutschi

Duden | mögen | Rechtschreibung, Bedeutung, Definition, Synonyme, Herkunft

Duden says (meaning 5):


> den Wunsch haben
> *Grammatik*
> Konjunktiv II meist in der Bedeutung eines Indikativ Präsens



(rough translation) The "Konjunktiv 2" is mostly used in the meaning of indicative präsens.

---
This way many people do not recognize it as Konjunktiv (I avoid the term "subjunctive" because it is only partly comparable to German Konjunktiv).
It is mostly used in the meaning of the indicative form.

"Möchte" has an own Duden entry refering to "mögen". Duden | möchte


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## rnozz

Thank you very much!


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