# 12 p.m. / 12 a.m.



## Arumbaya

Bonjour,

Je traduis un guide d'activités et je dois donc traduire aussi les horaires d'ouverture. Du coup ma question porte sur l'éternel problème de la traduction du "12h" (midi ou minuit).

Je sais que les Anglophones ont horreur des 12 a.m / 12 p.m et autres, donc je voulais savoir si ça choquait si j'écrivais, par exemple:

Opening hours: 10 a.m - noon

ou 

Opening hours: 8 p.m - midnight

Qu'en pensez-vous?


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## Riverby

Using "noon" and "midnight" in this way is an excellent idea.


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## Keith Bradford

Ta solution est la seule qui tienne debout.  Ce n'est pas tant une question d'avoir horreur des 12 a.m / 12 p.m, c'est plutôt que :
Ca n'a pas de sens, vu que a.m. signifie ante meridiem = avant midi ; comment est-ce que midi peut être avant midi ?
Donc ça sème la confusion, surtout dans le cas de minuit car on risque d'avoir 24 heures d'écart.


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## dazzy04

Cette proposition semble très naturelle et évite la confusion entre am et pm. 

 Cependant, dans un emploi du temps où les horaires sont marques de façon consécutive, je préférerais plutôt utiliser am/pm.


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## LART01

Arumbaya said:


> Bonjour,
> 
> Je traduis un guide d'activités et je dois donc traduire aussi les horaires d'ouverture. Du coup ma question porte sur l'éternel problème de la traduction du "12h" (midi ou minuit).
> 
> Je sais que les Anglophones ont horreur des 12 a.m / 12 p.m et autres, donc je voulais savoir si ça choquait si j'écrivais, par exemple:
> 
> Opening hours: 10 a.m - noon
> 
> ou
> 
> Opening hours: 8 p.m - midnight
> 
> Qu'en pensez-vous?



Hello
On voit la plupart du temps les horaires marqués avec am et pm....( magasins, administrations ...)


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## Arumbaya

Keith Bradford said:


> Ta solution est la seule qui tienne debout.  Ce n'est pas tant une question d'avoir horreur des 12 a.m / 12 p.m, c'est plutôt que :
> 
> Ca n'a pas de sens, vu que a.m. signifie ante meridiem = avant midi ; comment est-ce que midi peut être avant midi ?
> Donc ça sème la confusion, surtout dans le cas de minuit car on risque d'avoir 24 heures d'écart.



Je suis d'accord mais je partais dans la logique - à vous de me dire si c'est recevable ou pas - que: "a.m" s'utilise pour les heures avant midi et que donc c'est "logique" (ou pas) de l'utiliser pour minuit. A l'inverse, j'aurais utilisé "p.m" pour midi, puisque à 12h01 nous passons à l'après-midi.

Tordu ou pas? Je pense que oui 

Mais c'est pour ça que je voulais votre avis à tous. Je reste sur mon idée première même si c'est peut-être un peu bizarre.

Merci!

Aru'


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## GerardM

Hi Arumbaya, hi everyone,

> Opening hours: 10 a.m - noon

Isn't it more usual to say "12 noon" & "12 midnight"?


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## Keith Bradford

LART01 said:


> Hello
> On voit la plupart du temps les horaires marqués avec am et pm....( magasins, administrations ...)



Tu as tout à fait raison mais c'est parce que la plupart des administrations britanniques ne ferment pas à minuit ! (Ni à midi non plus, d'ailleurs.) Le problème ne se présente donc pas. Prenons plutôt le cas d'un bar ou d'un service d'urgence. Certains jours il reste ouvert jusqu'à minuit mais jeudi il ferme à midi. On y voit quoi ?

Monday, Wednesday and Friday 10 am - 12 am/pm?
Thursday 10 am - 12 am/pm?

Dans un tel cas, la solution d'Arumbaya est la seule possible (avec éventuellement la variante proposée par GerardM).


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## LART01

Keith Bradford said:


> Tu as tout à fait raison mais c'est parce que la plupart des administrations britanniques ne ferment pas à minuit ! (Ni à midi non plus, d'ailleurs.) Le problème ne se présente donc pas. Prenons plutôt le cas d'un bar ou d'un service d'urgence. Certains jours il reste ouvert jusqu'à minuit mais jeudi il ferme à midi. On y voit quoi ?
> 
> Monday, Wednesday and Friday 10 am - 12 am/pm?
> Thursday 10 am - 12 am/pm?
> 
> 
> I agree
> That's wat Tesco does for instance
> 
> http://opening-times.co.uk/tesco-superstore-brent-park
> 
> Dans un tel cas, la solution d'Arumbaya est la seule possible (avec éventuellement la variante proposée par GerardM).


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## Keith Bradford

...and interestingly, the Tesco store that Lart01 quotes is open 24 hours on Monday. So that's midnight to midnight. But what they write is *12.01 am - midnight*. This was originally a military device, where 24.00 is never used - everything happens at either 23.59 or 24.01 to avoid confusion over the date.


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## broglet

Arumbaya said:


> Je suis d'accord mais je partais dans la logique - à vous de me dire si c'est recevable ou pas - que: "a.m" s'utilise pour les heures avant midi et que donc c'est "logique" (ou pas) de l'utiliser pour minuit. A l'inverse, j'aurais utilisé "p.m" pour midi, puisque à 12h01 nous passons à l'après-midi.
> 
> Tordu ou pas? Je pense que oui
> 
> Mais c'est pour ça que je voulais votre avis à tous. Je reste sur mon idée première même si c'est peut-être un peu bizarre.
> 
> Merci!
> 
> Aru'


Bonjour Aru - Je regrette que, pour moi, ta logique est incompréhensible. Pourquoi penses-tu qe minuit est avant midi? Minuit est aussi douze heures *aprés* midi. Et à 11.59 c'est toujours le matin, donc pourquoi pas dire que midi est toujours le matin aussi?

Sommaire:

12h00 = 12 noon or noon
24h00 = 12 midnight or midnight


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## Arumbaya

Merci à tous!

Broglet: oui, vu comme ça, je me sens un peu bête ... mais pour moi, on passe au jour suivant à minuit du coup dans ma tête c'était logique. Bref j'arrête mon cerveau dérangé.

Une dernière question, histoire que je vois si je suis si bête que ça : 12h30 (midi trente), vous l'écririez bien comme suit (rassurez moi) : 12.30 p.m ?

Et si j'ai tort, comment l'écririez vous ? Je commence à m'y perdre dans ces histoires !


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## SwissPete

> 12h30 (midi trente), vous l'écririez bien comme suit (rassurez moi) : 12.30 p.m ?


Oui, comme d'ailleurs une minute après midi : 12:01 pm.


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## Arumbaya

SwissPete said:


> Oui, comme d'ailleurs une minute après midi : 12:01 pm.



Merci beaucoup!


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## broglet

Arumbaya said:


> Merci à tous!
> 
> Broglet: oui, vu comme ça, je me sens un peu bête ... mais pour moi, on passe au jour suivant à minuit du coup dans ma tête c'était logique. Bref j'arrête mon cerveau dérangé.
> 
> Une dernière question, histoire que je vois si je suis si bête que ça : 12h30 (midi trente), vous l'écririez bien comme suit (rassurez moi) : 12.30 p.m ?
> 
> Et si j'ai tort, comment l'écririez vous ? Je commence à m'y perdre dans ces histoires !


1. Tu n'es pas du tout bête 
2. Oui, on écrit ou 12.30 p.m. ou 12.30 pm (qui est plus moderne) mais pas normalement 12*:*30 ...


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## redhotchili

noon = 12:00 pm

midnight = 12:00 am

Opening hours: 10:00 am to 12:00 pm 
                      8:00 pm to 12:00 am

This works perfectly in NA as does replacing 12:00 pm with noon and 12:00 am with midnight.


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## Keith Bradford

Redhotchili, I'm very happy to know that that works in Canada. However the rest of the English-speaking world may not agree with you.
By the way, the international standard (ISO 8601) is that if an unambiguous representation of time is required, 00:00 is usually the preferred notation for midnight and not 24:00 or 12.00. Digital clocks display 00:00 and not 24:00. This allows for the two midnights in any one day to be distinguished. There is an excellent source for all these matters on http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/iso-time.html.


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## broglet

Keith Bradford said:


> Digital clocks display 00:00 and not 24:00. This allows for the two midnights in any one day to be distinguished. There is an excellent source for all these matters on http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/iso-time.html.


Hi Keith. For clarification, it is not the 00:00 displayed by a digital clock that allows 'for the two midnights in any one day to be distinguished'. But I am sure this is not what you meant! 

At the risk of seeming pedantic I would also suggest that it is questionable whether either of the two midnights is 'in' any day. After all, at midnight you are at the end of one day (with none of that day coming after it) and at the beginning of the subsequent day (with none of that day coming before it). I think the concept of a time being 'in' a day requires that at least some of that day (however small) is to be found on either side of that time. Just as at midday one is at the end of the morning and at the beginning of the afternoon, but in neither. This is the ultimate reason why the (apparently Canadian) use of 12:00 am and 12:00 pm is so utterly confusing to UK citizens such as us who are not used to what seem to be such alien notions.


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## Novanas

Just to add to the confusion, here in Ireland many people seem to think that noon is 12 *AM* and midnight is 12 *PM*.  For me, noon has always been 12 PM and midnight 12 AM, even if, as Keith has rightly pointed out, neither really makes sense.  How can 12 PM be "after noon" when it *is* noon.  And if midnight is before noon, it's also after noon.

At any rate if you see 12 AM or 12 PM in Ireland, you might want to inquire which is meant, noon or midnight, just to be on the safe side.  (Just as if you see a sign pointing you along a road to a certain town, chances are it's a different road you want.)  I've often thought that things are done like this in Ireland just to give tourists something to talk about when they get home.


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## Arumbaya

Seneca the Duck said:


> I've often thought that things are done like this in Ireland just to give tourists something to talk about when they get home.



Now I really want to go to Ireland! 

Anyway, this thread is really interesting!


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## wildan1

Arumbaya said:


> Opening hours: 10 a.m - noon
> 
> ou
> 
> Opening hours: 8 p.m - midnight



Please note that if you use lower-case letters, both initials require a period/full stop:_ 12:00 a.m. / 12:00 p.m.

_No punctuation is used with capital letters, however: _12:00 AM / 12:00 PM

_(This is an AE standard; BE usage may differ)


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## Arumbaya

wildan1 said:


> Please note that if you use lower-case letters, both initials require a period/full stop:_ 12 a.m. / 12 p.m.
> 
> _No punctuation is used with capital letters, however: _12 AM / 12 PM_



Wow, didn't know that! Thx!


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## Keith Bradford

broglet said:


> ...For clarification, it is not the 00:00 displayed by a digital clock that allows 'for the two midnights in any one day to be distinguished'. But I am sure this is not what you meant!...



Quite right - paragraph return omitted in error.


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## redhotchili

This is the full quote: As every day both starts and ends with midnight, the two notations *00:00* and *24:00* are available to distinguish the two midnights that can be associated with one date. This means that the following two notations refer to exactly the same point in time:*
1995-02-04 24:00* = *1995-02-05 00:00

*​In case an unambiguous representation of time is required, 00:00 is usually the preferred notation for midnight and not 24:00. Digital clocks display 00:00 and not 24:00.

As 00:00 is usually the preferred notation for midnight which represents the beginning of the next day, it follows that, for the purposes of the original poster, I think 12:00 AM or a.m would be the best choice for a sign displaying opening hours. Unless we want to start using 00:00 which I have only seen on my digital clock but not on store front signs.


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## broglet

wildan1 said:


> Please note that if you use lower-case letters, both initials require a period/full stop:_ 12:00 a.m. / 12:00 p.m.
> 
> _No punctuation is used with capital letters, however: _12:00 AM / 12:00 PM
> 
> _(This is an AE standard; BE usage may differ)


You're right that this is not BE usage - here upper case is rarely used, lower case rarely contains full stops and the specific representations 12 am and 12 pm are anathema!


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## redhotchili

So what is the standard BE usage?


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## Delphidelph

wow, this thread is really interesting, and confusing as well ! 

I never thought 12am could be midnight and 12pm noon... to me it seemed logical (but obviously we all have different logic here !) that 12am is noon, because when using am/pm instead of military time, it goes from 00:00 to 12:00 (whether it's am or pm), 12 being the last part of the half day. so to me 12am would be the end of the morning, so noon, and therefore 12pm the end of the day, so midnight. 
If it's the other way around, 12pm being noon, it means you go straight from 11:59am to 12pm... it seems a bit weird.

So that leads to another question : what is correct if it's half past noon ? if noon is 12pm it should be 12:30 pm, but then it contradicts the whole purpose of using am/pm, since you're not supposed to go anywhere after 12... right ? i thought it would be 00:30pm, which would mean that noon is 00:00pm (not sure if that makes any sense), but definitely not 12pm... 

This is all so confusing and i'm not sure what i wrote makes much sense...


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## redhotchili

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12-hour_clock

Scroll down to Confusion at noon and midnight.

I think using noon and midnight would clear up a lot of confusion and be understood by the majority of English-speakers.


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## Delphidelph

Thanks a lot for this link ! Obviously my logic is not that logical after all. I'll stick to noon and midnight then to avoid any confusion.


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## funnyhat

Delphidelph said:


> So that leads to another question : what is correct if it's half past noon ? if noon is 12pm it should be 12:30 pm, but then it contradicts the whole purpose of using am/pm, since you're not supposed to go anywhere after 12... right ? i thought it would be 00:30pm, which would mean that noon is 00:00pm (not sure if that makes any sense), but definitely not 12pm...
> 
> This is all so confusing and i'm not sure what i wrote makes much sense...



Half past noon is 12:30 p.m.  If you use a.m./p.m, you never have a "00:00" in the first place.


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## Keith Bradford

Yes it is confusing isn't it? I summarise.

English speakers around the world have NO consensus about the use of am/pm with twelve o'clock. French people wishing to make themselves clearly understood must do one of two things:
They may adopt the British method of adding _noon _or _midnight_. This is not common for N. American readers, perhaps, but it is certainly unambiguous.
They may adopt the universal standard ISO 8601 which uses the 24-hour clock. 12 noon is then 12:00 and 12 midnight is 24:00. This is not the first choice for British writers except in the military or travel businesses, but most people will understand it after a few moments' thought.
They should certainly not use 12 am/pm as this will cause total confusion.


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## jetset

To go back to the initial question, what about precising something like :
Opening hours
*Mornings* : 08:30 - noon
*Afternoons/Evenings* :  02:00 - midnight
so there will be no confusion.


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## Arumbaya

jetset said:


> To go back to the initial question, what about precising something like :
> Opening hours
> *Mornings* : 08:30 - noon
> *Afternoons/Evenings* :  02:00 - midnight
> so there will be no confusion.



That's what I did!


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## WordRef1

redhotchili said:


> noon = 12:00 pm
> 
> midnight = 12:00 am
> 
> Opening hours: 10:00 am to 12:00 pm
> 8:00 pm to 12:00 am
> 
> This works perfectly in NA as does replacing 12:00 pm with noon and 12:00 am with midnight.


It's kind of funny, where I come from, this is the answer and everyone knows it. I didn't realize it was such a center of confusion, however I do understand the confusion. It is because it's not a matter of logic, but convention. I somewhat recently learned (I think from a Grammar Girl podcast) what the correct way to write it is (as Wildan pointed out). However, being a bit too lazy for rules about spaces and periods, probably most people write it as above (instead of 12:00 a.m. for example, though I also understand why the formal rules are what they are). Oh and of course, we can get really lazy and just write (or say) things like 9 - 5 for work hours because we know very well that it means 9 AM to 5 PM.

I guess everyone else needs to just make up their mind, but in the mean time it was also pointed out where I heard it how the PM/AM designation doesn't make sense for noon or midnight; so, I have taken more to writing noon and midnight myself. If the format or space requirements are not stringent, I think it's just fine to write noon and midnight if that's what you mean. I doubt anyone would ever be confused.


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