# mehr oder minder viele



## raymondaliasapollyon

Hi,

I know "mehr oder minder" means "more or less," but I don't know what it means when it combines with "viele."

mehr oder minder viele bedruckte Bögen Papier, die zusammengeheftet sind und von einem festen Umschlag aus Pappe schützend umgeben werden

I'd appreciate your help.


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## Thersites

_Viele_ just means _many_ (as in: not just one or two, but _many_).

Halb so viele Seiten
Half as many pages

Mehr oder minder viele Seiten
Many - or maybe not that many - pages


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## διαφορετικός

Maybe raymondaliasapollyon aks himself, why it does not just read "mehr oder minder viel bedruckte Bögen Papier", without "viel". I think it would mean the same, because "mehr viel" seems to mean the same as "mehr", and "minder viel" seems to mean the same as "minder" (= "weniger"). At the moment, I can't give an answer.


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## raymondaliasapollyon

διαφορετικός said:


> Maybe raymondaliasapollyon aks himself, why it does not just read "mehr oder minder viel bedruckte Bögen Papier", without "viel". I think it would mean the same, because "mehr viel" seems to mean the same as "mehr", and "minder viel" seems to mean the same as "minder" (= "weniger"). At the moment, I can't give an answer.



Maybe "mehr oder minder" means "generally" or "on the whole"?


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## Thersites

διαφορετικός said:


> Maybe raymondaliasapollyon aks himself, why it does not just read "mehr oder minder viel bedruckte Bögen Papier", without "viel".


Thinking about it, maybe my explanation was not so good after all. Maybe _mehr oder minder_ just requires an _Adjektiv_ which in the case of a certain amount/number of things is _viele_ just as in the case of wellbeing it would be _gut._



			
				Raymond... said:
			
		

> Maybe "mehr oder minder" means "generally" or "on the whole"?


No, that expression has two meanings/nuances. One is just to say: A varying amount. The other is to say: "Very many! Okay, maybe not always that many."


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## διαφορετικός

Thersites said:


> Maybe _mehr oder minder_ just requires an _Adjektiv_


Almost. I think the whole expression ("mehr oder minder") cannot be used like an adjective itself, but only like an adverb. Which means that it cannot refer directly to a noun (like "Papier").

P.S.:


Thersites said:


> that expression has two meanings/nuances. One is just to say: A varying amount. The other is to say: "Very many! Okay, maybe not always that many."


Yes, I think in most cases "mehr oder minder" (as well as "mehr oder weniger") can be replaced by "ungefähr" or "ziemlich" (which are adverbs).


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## Hutschi

διαφορετικός said:


> "mehr oder minder viel bedruckte Bögen Papier"


Note that it was "viele" (#1). This does explain that you mean how many pages there are.

The little letter "e" in viele vs. viel changes the sense strongly.

"mehr oder minder viel bedruckte Bögen Papier"
Here you can omit "viel". It refers how to how much area is covered with text.

Mehr oder minder *viele bedruckte Bögen Papier* = More or less *many printed sheets of paper 

Mehr oder minder viel/stark bedruckte Bögen* Papier = Mehr oder minder bedruckte Bögen Papier = *More or less much/heavily printed *sheets of paper.  Note that "mehr oder minder viel bedruckt" is not very idiomatic. Better is "Mehr oder minder stark bedruckt".  "Viel" is optional here. To delete it was correct - if it is meant.


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## διαφορετικός

Hutschi said:


> *Mehr oder minder viel/stark bedruckte Bögen* Papier = Mehr oder minder bedruckte Bögen Papier = *More or less much/heavily printed *sheets of paper.



Indeed, and the sense would be the same if "viel" (or "stark") was not there. It would look as if "mehr oder minder" was referring to "bedruckte". And this is not the meaning of the original sentence.


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## JClaudeK

I think that it just designates an indefinite quantity: 

{mehr oder minder viele}  Bögen Papier = {pretty much} sheets of paper


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## raymondaliasapollyon

Thersites said:


> No, that expression has two meanings/nuances. One is just to say: A varying amount. The other is to say: "Very many! Okay, maybe not always that many."



Is it an informal usage? It seems that in English, "more than many, or less than many + something" is quite informal, if grammatical at all.



JClaudeK said:


> I think that it just designates an indefinite quantity:
> 
> {mehr oder minder viele}  Bögen Papier = {pretty much} sheets of paper



But "many" already indicates an indefinite quantity. In addition, I'd expect "more or less" in English to modify a definite quantity, say, 20.


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## raymondaliasapollyon

Hutschi said:


> Mehr oder minder *viele bedruckte Bögen Papier* = More or less *many printed sheets of paper *



Is "mehr oder minder" taken as a unit? Or should it be parsed as "mehr oder [minder viele]"?


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## διαφορετικός

raymondaliasapollyon said:


> But "many" already indicates an indefinite quantity. In addition, I'd expect "more or less" in English to modify a definite quantity, say, 20.


"Many" can represent a definite range of quantity, if you compare it to "few". "Mehr oder weniger viele" can mean a quantity of which I am not sure if it is appropriate to call it "viele" - either because I don't know the precise quantity, or because I don't know what quantity "viele" means to other people.

Example:
In my opinion, "viele Bögen Papier" means "mindestens 20 Bögen Papier".
=> "mehr oder minder viele Bögen Papier" can mean a quantity of "ungefähr 20 oder mehr Bögen Papier".
=> I would use this expression either if I am not sure if the number of "Bögen Papier" is really "mindestens 20", or if I am not sure if other people have a different opinion about what "_viele_ Bögen Papier" means.


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## Hutschi

raymondaliasapollyon said:


> Is "mehr oder minder" taken as a unit? Or should it be parsed as "mehr oder [minder viele]"?


It is not a unit but a kind of modifier for viele, wenige and similar words. It is similar to approximately but even more vague.
It says that the amount is very vague.


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## bearded

διαφορετικός said:


> in most cases "mehr oder minder"... can be replaced by "ungefähr"


I think, not in the case of ''viele'':  _ungefähr viele _wouldn't work. 

A discussion abt. the same expression in  English (started by the same questioner) can be found here:
a more or less high number of printed pages


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## Hutschi

I mean "mehr oder minder viele" are "ungefähr" - not exactly because the interval in case of "mehr oder minder viele" is  or may be larger.


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## bearded

Hutschi said:


> I mean "mehr oder minder viele" are "ungefähr"


I think I understand what you mean, but (if I take you literally)
 mehr oder minder viele Bücher = _ungefähr Bücher _?
( sorry for my pedantry )

Is the idiom ''mehr oder minder viele/mehr oder weniger viele'' widespread in German? To me, it doesn't really make much sense (viele? wenige? einige? ziemlich viele? ich weiß nicht wieviele?...)


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## Hutschi

bearded said:


> I think I understand what you mean, but (if I take you literally)
> mehr oder minder viele Bücher = _ungefähr Bücher _?


I do not mean that the words are exchangeable. they have just approximately the same meaning.
You could say, it is approximately the amount of books when you say "mehr oder minder viele Bücher" is "ungefähr die Menge, die man als 'viele Bücher' bezeichnet". But you are right. It was not clear and I was not aware of it.

"Viele Bücher" sind ungefähr "mehr oder minder viele Bücher", wobei bei "mehr oder minder" das Intervall größer wird.
Beispiel:

Viele Bücher: mehr als 100 bis vielleicht 1000 (abhängig vom Kontext).
Mehr oder minder viele Bücher: 30 bis vielleicht tausend.

Das Regal ist mehr oder minder mit Büchern gefüllt. Es ist etwa zwischen 20% und 100% gefüllt, gefühlsmäßig eher im oberen Bereich. (... im großen Ganzen, mehr oder weniger. See #19.)
Das Regal ist mit Büchern gefüllt. (Im engen Sinn wäre es vollkommen voll, aber normalerweise ist es fast voll.)

Das Regal ist mehr oder minder leer. Es sind wenige Bücher drin. Es ist ungefähr leer. ("Ungefähr leer" dient zur Erläuterung. Es kann leer sein, zeitweilig leer sein, oder es kann etwas voller sein, aber nicht voll.)


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## JClaudeK

raymondaliasapollyon said:


> It seems that in English, "more than many, or less than many + something" is quite informal, if grammatical at all.


Well "_mehr oder minder viele_" is quite unusual/ strange, too.



> *Buch*
> <*Buchs* (*Buches*), *Bücher*> _das_ Buch  SUBST
> *1*. mehr oder minder viele bedruckte Bögen Papier, die zusammengeheftet sind und von einem festen Umschlag aus Pappe schützend umgeben werden. Das Buch hat 1200 Seiten., ein Buch lesen/aus dem Regal nehmen/wieder ins Regal stellen, das Impressum/der Klappentext/der Rücken/die Seitenzahl/der Umschlag eines Buches, in einem Buch blättern



"eine gewisse Anzahl von Seiten" would have been much more common.


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## Hutschi

bearded said:


> Is the idiom ''mehr oder minder viele/mehr oder weniger viele''


"Mehr oder minder" ist eher selten.
"Mehr oder minder" is seldom used in daily language.

In many cases it may be replaced by "mehr oder weniger" - that is used rather frequently.

Duden sagt, es sei bildungssprachlich.
Duden explains it is educated language (elevated language of educated people)


minder



> ...
> 
> in geringerem Grade; nicht so sehr (meist in Verbindung mit „nicht“)
> 
> BEISPIELE
> 
> nicht minder _(nicht weniger; ebenso) _freundlich
> jemand, etwas ist minder angesehen
> WENDUNGEN, REDENSARTEN, SPRICHWÖRTER
> 
> mehr oder minder (mehr)


mehr


> mehr oder minder/weniger (im großen Ganzen, in gewissem Maße: das Zusammentreffen war mehr oder minder zufällig)



more or less/less (on the whole, to some extent: the encounter was more or less accidental) (DeepL-translation)

Edit: I replaced some references (it) by the whole phrase to avoid misunderstandings.


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## διαφορετικός

raymondaliasapollyon said:


> Is "mehr oder minder" taken as a unit? Or should it be parsed as "mehr oder [minder viele]"?


Yes, "mehr oder minder" is a syntactical unit. (It might be possible to understand it differently in special cases.)



bearded said:


> _ungefähr viele _wouldn't work.


No, it would not be idiomatic. But in this case, you can replace it with "ziemlich" (P.S.: "mehr oder minder viele" = "ziemlich viele"). In some other cases, "mehr oder weniger" can be replaced by "fast" / "beinahe" (I got this idea from more or less - Wiktionary).


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## Hutschi

διαφορετικός said:


> Yes, "mehr oder minder" is a syntactical unit. (It might be possible to understand it differently in special cases.)
> ...




Hi, I misunderstood the question, maybe. I understood "unit" in the sense "unit of measurement". Indeed it is a syntactical unit.
Thank you.
Bernd


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## raymondaliasapollyon

Hutschi said:


> mehr
> 
> more or less/less (on the whole, to some extent: the encounter was more or less accidental) (DeepL-translation)



Thank you for quoting the definitions and providing the English glosses.

Which sense is the one used in "mehr oder minder *viele*"?  It seems that neither "many ... on the whole" nor "many ... to some extent" makes sense as a translation of the OP.

Maybe "mehr oder minder *viele*" should be listed in the dictionary as a fixed phrase (meaning "a varying quantity"), separately from "mehr oder minder."

The meaning cannot be derived compositionally, i.e., by combining one element with the next successively.


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## Kajjo

raymondaliasapollyon said:


> The meaning cannot be derived compositionally, i.e., by combining one element with the next successively.


But it can.

"mehr oder minder" = more or less
"viele" = many

Of course it is a composite phrase built from two independent phrases and the meanings add up nicely.

You can combine it mit almost any other property:

_mehr oder minder (viele | stark | schwer | linkslastig | betroffen...)
more or less many | strong | heavy | leftist | concerned..._


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## Hutschi

"Viele" relates to a countable amount. Viele Seiten Papier, many pages of paper.
"Viel" relates in standard language to a noncountable amount. Viel Papier, much paper.

In coll. language the last "e" in "viele" may be weak  and even vanish when speaking. It is better to speak and write it.

"Mehr oder minder" defines that it might be less than the amount "viele" or "viel", respectively.

Edit: "mehr oder minder" can define as well countable as non-countable properties.


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## raymondaliasapollyon

Kajjo said:


> But it can.
> 
> "mehr oder minder" = more or less
> "viele" = many
> 
> Of course it is a composite phrase built from two independent phrases and the meanings add up nicely.



It is natural for Germans. However, I've asked a few native speakers of English and they don't think it makes sense to say "more or less many." 

In post #16, bearded, an Italian speaker, doesn't find it comprehensible, either. I, a Chinese speaker, also have a hard time trying to interpret "more or less many" in a piece-by-piece fashion.

Maybe speakers of other languages can share with us how they feel about "more or less many."


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## bearded

JClaudeK said:


> "_mehr oder minder viele_" is quite unusual/ strange


You see, even a native speaker finds it odd.


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## raymondaliasapollyon

Hutschi said:


> "Viele" relates to a countable amount. Viele Seiten Papier, many pages of paper.
> "Viel" relates in standard language to a noncountable amount. Viel Papier, much paper.
> 
> In coll. language the last "e" in "viele" may be weak  and even vanish when speaking. It is better to speak and write it.
> 
> "Mehr oder minder" defines that it might be less than the amount "viele" or "viel", respectively.



Could "mehr oder minder" *also *mean more than the amount denoted by "viel(e)"?
In other words, could it mean "more than _many_, or less than _many_"?


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## Hutschi

raymondaliasapollyon said:


> Could "mehr oder minder" *also *mean more than the amount denoted by "viel(e)"?


"Viele" is not defined as a strict value.
So this is possible.

For example:

100 pages might be "viele Seiten". In another context it might be "wenige Seiten".

"Mehr oder minder viele=mehr oder weniger viele" can be more than viele, but this depends on context.
Mehr oder weniger/mehr oder minder just means that the estimation is very vague. It is similar to large vs. large or a little bit smaller (than large).



raymondaliasapollyon said:


> In other words, could it mean "more than _many_, or less than _many_"?


It depends on the logical system. "Many" is not a number. This way this is possible if you allow "more then many".

Less than many can be more than many depending on context if you allow "more than many".

But is you define "many" reaches into infinity, this is not possible.


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## Kajjo

raymondaliasapollyon said:


> and they don't think it makes sense to say "more or less many."


Yes, that might very well be strange in English and it is not so common in German either. I won't contradict natives who feel it even to be weird with "viele".

But (!) my comment was directed at your wrong statement that the whole phrase is not combined of "mehr oder minder"+property. To the contrary, it is a simple composition of two separate units. It does not create a meaning of its own. That was my point -- I was not part of the other discussion.

I agree that "mehr oder minder (+Adjektiv)" with _Adjektiv=stark, schwach, groß, klein, begeistert _or similar is a lot more common than combinations with _viele, wenige_, but nonetheless it is possible and straightforward to understand.



raymondaliasapollyon said:


> In other words, could it mean "more than _many_, or less than _many_"?


I recommend to interpret it as "mehr = really a lot" and "minder = not so many".


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## JClaudeK

bearded said:


> even a native speaker finds it odd.


What I find odd ist "mehr oder *minder* viele".

"mehr oder *weniger* viele" wouldn't bother me.


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## Hutschi

"Mehr oder minder" neigt zum Veralten oder ist schon veraltet und wird wohl meist nur noch in gehobener schriftlicher Sprache verwendet.


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## Hutschi

raymondaliasapollyon said:


> Is "mehr oder minder" taken as a unit?   Or should it be parsed as "mehr oder [minder viele]"?





Hutschi said:


> "*Mehr oder minder* viele=*mehr oder weniger* viele" can be more than viele, but this depends on context.


I want to give an example:



raymondaliasapollyon said:


> *Mehr oder minder viele* bedruckte Bögen Papier, die zusammengeheftet sind und von einem festen Umschlag aus Pappe schützend umgeben werden.


Viele dieser bedruckten Bögen sind leider beschädigt.

Here "Mehr oder minder viele bedruckte Bögen" is a larger amount than "viele  der Bögen sind beschädigt".


---

(I needed some time to find a good example. I think this is one.)


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## raymondaliasapollyon

Kajjo said:


> I agree that "mehr oder minder (+Adjektiv)" with _Adjektiv=stark, schwach, groß, klein, begeistert _or similar is a lot more common than combinations with _viele, wenige_, but nonetheless it is possible and straightforward to understand.
> 
> 
> I recommend to interpret it as "mehr = really a lot" and "minder = not so many".



When "mehr oder minder" combines with "_groß," _what does the resulting expression mean? Of varying heights?


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## Hutschi

Hi raymondaliasapollyon,
basically it means large. This can mean height, but also area or assets.  But the size/amount is not defined exactly. If you compare it with a large thing of the same kind it may be larger or smaller in volume or height or value etc.
If the thing has varying heights depends on context and tis is not included.

I think "mehr oder minder groß" is seldom used and it can also be ironical in some context.

Do you have context for your question?

Viele Grüße aus Dresden
Bernd


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## Kajjo

raymondaliasapollyon said:


> When "mehr oder minder" combines with "_groß," _what does the resulting expression mean? Of varying heights?


"Mehr oder minder groß" covers the range from "not very big" to "really big".

_Sie haben immer mit einem mehr oder minder großen Vorsprung gewonnen.
= Manchmal war der Vorsprung groß, manchmal nicht so groß._


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## raymondaliasapollyon

Kajjo said:


> "Mehr oder minder groß" covers the range from "not very big" to "really big".
> 
> _Sie haben immer mit einem mehr oder minder großen Vorsprung gewonnen.
> = Manchmal war der Vorsprung groß, manchmal nicht so groß._



Thank you.

Does "mehr oder minder viele" similarly cover the range from "not many" to "very many"?


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## Hutschi

I think, it covers this range. However it depends on context.
Auf dem Platz sind mehr oder minder viele Menschen, je nach Tageszeit. 
Here it covers the full range and could even be Zero.

Ein Sandhaufen hat mehr oder minder viele Sandkörner.
Here we have a paradoxon.
"Haufen" includes that there are a lot of grains of sand. But it does not say how many are the minimum. This is also typical for "mehr oder minder/mehr oder weniger". It does not have strict borders.

See also:
Sorites paradox - Wikipedia


> A typical formulation involves a heap of sand, from which grains are removed individually. With the assumption that removing a single grain does not cause a heap to become a non-heap, the paradox is to consider what happens when the process is repeated enough times that only one grain remains: is it still a heap? If not, when did it change from a heap to a non-heap?[3]


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## Kajjo

raymondaliasapollyon said:


> Does "mehr oder minder viele" similarly cover the range from "not many" to "very many"?


Yes. It is easy to think of contexts in which this would fit.


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