# Trzetrzelewska (pronunciation)



## piraña utria

Hello folks.

I have a simple question for you. 

Barbara (a.k.a Basia) Trzetrzelewska is the name of a compatriot of you, a singer who is a former member of British trio Matt Bianco. So I’m wondering how could pronounce her family name.

I don’t master the international phonetic symbology thus I really appreciate if anyone could explain this topic by using either Spanish sounds or English sounds.

Thanks in advance for your guidance,


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## jazyk

OK, very roughly using Spanish: Chechelefsca.


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## piraña utria

Hi:

Thanks a lot for your accurate answer.

Regards,


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## robin74

piraña utria said:


> I’m wondering how could pronounce his family name.


_Her_ family name


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## piraña utria

robin74 said:


> _Her_ family name


 
Thanks for your correction Robin. I've taken note of it.

Regards,


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## majlo

Actually, I've always heard it pronounce /tschetschelefsca/.


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## jazyk

Which is the same thing I wrote in Spanish.


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## piraña utria

jazyk said:


> Which is the same thing I wrote in Spanish.


 
Yes, it is. Thanks to both of you.

Regards,


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## majlo

Sorry, I didn't know /ch/ in Spanish is the same as /tsch/. 
As a side note, that's pretty interesting. How, then, would you transcribe the sound /sch/ in Spanish?


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## piraña utria

majlo said:


> Sorry, I didn't know /ch/ in Spanish is the same as /tsch/.
> As a side note, that's pretty interesting. How, then, would you transcribe the sound /sch/ in Spanish?


 
Good morning:
 
Well, your point is very interesting; if I understood Jazyk's post, Basia’s family name pronunciation is more stressed than the simple “ch” in Spanish; this last one is very similar to “*cho*colate” in English.
 
On the other hand, if I comprehended  Jazyk‘s point I insist, the syllables highlighted by him/her sounded “tch”, with a sort of “t” stressed joined to a “ch” sounds, like English’s *cho*colate. Am I right?
 
Regards,


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## jazyk

> As a side note, that's pretty interesting. How, then, would you transcribe the sound /sch/ in Spanish?


If you mean sch as in German Schuh and English shoe, Spanish doesn't have that sound, except a few dialects, like Argentinian, where it's spelled ll (as in calle, street) or yo (I).


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## ryba

jazyk said:


> Which is the same thing I wrote in Spanish.



No, not necessarily. It depends on if majlo meant tsch was a single sound (then, it is) or two separate sounds (then it's not).

Pronouncing _Trzetrzelewska_ as if it were _Czeczelewska_ would be a Poznań City trait.

In standard Polish we do pronounce and percieve trz (similar to the sound t followed by an English sh) as something different than cz (similar to English ch).

Roughly, it would be similar to Chechelefska but the pronounciation I would recommend Piraña is Tshetsheleska making t and sh sound as 2 separate sounds (you can get rid of the f sound, there's no problem about that).

Only if you're not able to do it, use that funny Spanish palatal ch sound that to a Polish ear sounds like "una mezcla de cz y ć" and would make the name sound more like _Ciecielewska_ than _Trzetrzelewska_.

Saludos.


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## majlo

ryba said:


> In standard Polish we do pronounce and percieve trz (similar to the sound t followed by an English sh) as something different than cz (similar to English ch).
> 
> Roughly, it would be similar to Chechelefska but the pronounciation I would recommend Piraña is Tshetsheleska making t and sh sound as 2 separate sounds (you can get rid of the f sound, there's no problem about that).



And that's what I meant. /tsch/ is not an individual sound in my context. It is worth adding that between the third "e" and "s" there's optional slight /f/ sound.


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## jazyk

> No, not necessarily. It depends on if majlo meant tsch was a single sound (then, it is) or two separate sounds (then it's not).


I was just replying to his request of simplicity. Describing sounds is too hard anyway. The best thing is to listen to the way the word is pronounced and try to imitate it. 


> I don’t master the international phonetic symbology thus* I really appreciate if anyone could explain this topic by using either Spanish sounds* or English sounds.


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## Thomas1

ryba said:
			
		

> Roughly, it would be similar to Chechelefska but the pronounciation I would recommend Piraña is Tshetsheleska making t and sh sound as 2 separate sounds (you can get rid of the f sound, there's no problem about that).





majlo said:


> And that's what I meant. /tsch/ is not an individual sound in my context. It is worth adding that between the third "e" and "s" there's optional slight /f/ sound.


It's curious that you are mentioning this. Personally, I enunciate the name in question with /f/ and would suggest the same to Polish students. I tend to treat the pronunciation without /f/ as a bit careless. It may result in a completely different name and in turn in confusion.

I find jazyk's approximation a good one.

Tom


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## Fred_C

piraña utria said:


> Hello folks.
> 
> I have a simple question for you.
> 
> Barbara (a.k.a Basia) Trzetrzelewska is the name of a compatriot of you, a singer who is a former member of British trio Matt Bianco. So I’m wondering how could pronounce her family name.
> 
> I don’t master the international phonetic symbology thus I really appreciate if anyone could explain this topic by using either Spanish sounds or English sounds.
> 
> Thanks in advance for your guidance,


 Hi,
I think (I may be wrong) that the RZ combination is pronounced like "Y" or "LL" in colombian spanish.


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## Szymon Krulikowski

I've asked some of my spanish friends how would they write the sounds that I was making saying trzetrzelewska... and the truth is that they don't hear it as polish trze: [t-sz-e] but like their che [Polish - cze]. So people speaking Spanish (_castellano_) hear the name of the singer like spanish _chechelevsca_.

However I've asked a girl from _cataluña_ how she would write it and she said that in _catalan_ it would sound as_ xjexjelefska_ (written in _catalan_). But she argued that you can't see two consonants together (and it sounds strange). I must add that her's pronunciation was the closest to the Polish pronunciation.


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## ryba

Thomas1 said:


> It's curious that you are mentioning this. Personally, I enunciate the name in question with /f/ and would suggest the same to Polish students. I tend to treat the pronunciation without /f/ as a bit careless. It may result in a completely different name and in turn in confusion.



Because you'ra a purist.

I still think it is way more important to pronounce _trz_ as two separate sounds than to pronounce that /f/ sound any Polish speaker can do without.

Piraña, if you can't pronounce _trz_ as /tsh/, then, it is more natural in Polish to pronounce it like /chsh/, that is to pronounce _Trzetrzelewska_ as if it were _Czszeczszelewska_ /Chshechshelé(f)ska/ rather than a simple /chechelewska/ which, using Spanish sounds would sound like Polish _Ciecielewska_ and thus sound (extremely) funny.



Thomas1 said:


> I find jazyk's approximation a good one.


Me too. I just answered the "Which is the same thing I wrote in Spanish." part.


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## mcibor

If I can add my 5 pense...

I would say, that "*trze*" is pronounced somewhat similar to
ba*t she*rry

though English sh is much softer than Polish.
Still it seems like a good approximation


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## kknd

There's no explanation for improper pronounciation of 'trz' cluster! It's read /tsz/ and this is all; no /cz/, /ć/, /czsz/ (this is not natural!), /tż/, etc. The same is with 'wsk' which has only one correct reading /fsk/.

We can't say that something might be too difficult to learn and say: 'you can pronounce words like those in your language' to make one's life easier! We must remember that people here might be learning our (honourable! ) language. So let's give them proper reading and forget about any approximations – learners surely will start with those by themselves!


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## BezierCurve

It's been already quoted, I think, but let me do it again:



> I don’t master the international phonetic symbology thus I really appreciate if anyone could explain this topic by using either Spanish sounds or English sounds.


 
Piraña utria is fully aware of the disadvantages of mere approximations - but that's in fact what he/she wanted.


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## JakubikF

You are only partially right kknd. There are two official pronunciation for /trz/: /tsz/ and /czsz/ e.g. "trzy" [tszy] or [czszy]. Other variations which you mentioned must be considered as wrong or dialects.


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## ryba

mcibor said:


> If I can add my 5 pense...
> 
> I would say, that "*trze*" is pronounced somewhat similar to
> ba*t she*rry
> 
> though English sh is much softer than Polish.
> Still it seems like a good approximation






JakubikF said:


> You are only partially right kknd. There are two official pronunciation for /trz/: /tsz/ and /czsz/ e.g. "trzy" [tszy] or [czszy]. Other variations which you mentioned must be considered as wrong or dialects.


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## kknd

Two official pronunciation for /trz/: /tsz/ and /czsz/? I thought that if I want say 'trz' i say /tsz/ and if I want say 'czsz' i say /czsz/; I think that you're wrong here. There is only one correct way of reading this cluster: only the first (I was thaught so).


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## ryba

kknd said:


> Two official pronunciation for /trz/: /tsz/ and /czsz/? I thought that if I want say 'trz' i say /tsz/ and if I want say 'czsz' i say /czsz/; I think that you're wrong here. There is only one correct way of reading this cluster: only the first (I was thaught so).


That's right but you wrote in the last post that reading /trz/ as /czsz/ was not natural. For me it is. And it is common enough to be a possible pronounciation in standard Polish. A more relaxed one, that's for sure.

It is just an assimilation to the next sound.

The consonant /t/ is defined as "voiceless dental plosive".
/Cz/ is defined as "voiceless palato-alveolar affricate or domed postalveolar affricate".
/Sz/ is defined as "voiceless palato-alveolar fricative or domed postalveolar fricative".

It's a little bit more difficult to pronounce /trz/ as /trz/ than to pronounce it as /czsz/.


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## majlo

I agree that pronouncing "trz" as /czsz/ is also possible in standard Polish pronunciation, though I find the /tsz/ version easier to pronounce.


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## kknd

It's possible as you say and I can even say that it's even quite common, but I'm not sure if I can say it's acceptable: this assimilation you mention about shouldn't happen, it's considered as slipshod (?; new word for me).

You surely will be understood, but this isn't a way of pronouncing those sounds and such relaxation shouldn't arise in careful speaking.

You should remember that speaking /trz/ of 'trz' is also an err; see before.


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## JakubikF

kknd, it really IS an alternative and correct way of pronunciation ("trz": [tsz], [czsz]) as well as "dżem": [d-żem] or [dż-żem]; "drzewo": [d-żewo] or [dż-żewo]; trzcina: [t-szcina] or [czszcina]; strzał: [stszał] or [szczszał]. You just will not change it even if you do not like it. It is as it is. File a complaint to Rada Języka Polskiego if you like.


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## kknd

Katarzyna Wyrwas answers question 'Jak ludzie wymawiają, a jak powinni wymawiać słowo _strzała_?' in advices of Rada Języka Polskiego:

'W starannej polszczyźnie słowo to powinno mieć wymowę [stszała], przy czym _t_ powinno być wymawiane nie zębowo, lecz dziąsłowo (udziąsłowione, co w alfabecie fonetycznym zapisuje się jako _t_ z kropką pod spodem) pod wpływem następującej po nim głoski dziąsłowej _sz_, która jest naturalną realizacją ortograficznego _rz_ (ubezdźwięcznienie). Nie wiem dokładnie, jak ludzie wymawiają ten wyraz, ale pewnie dokonują różnych uproszczeń mówiąc np. [sczała] lub też [szczała]. O ile pierwsza z wymienionych form jest przykładem wymowy niestarannej, szybkiej, uproszczonej, to forma druga nie może zostać zaakceptowana jako nadmiernie uproszczona i przez to fonetycznie łudząco podobna do formy w 3. os. lp. rodzaju żeńskiego czasu przeszłego pewnego potocznego i wulgarnego zarazem czasownika.'

Could someone check this 'trz' cluster? I'm still really not sure of proposed by you alter-pronounciation after surfing the net… Any references?


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## JakubikF

Indeed, have you surfed here? http://www.obcyjezykpolski.interia.pl/?md=archive&id=131


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## kknd

Well, I feel somehow convinced about /czsz/ for 'trz' being acceptable; but still I have to put it clearly: 'use of /tsz/ is proposed/encouraged and /czsz/ is only allowed/permited'. Nonetheless thanks for resource/reference, thanks to them, I've come to realise about stated fact!


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## Thomas1

Something of interest I have found:

                                 Dwa sposoby wymowy „-wski”:
 literowy – z /f/ krakofski
 uproszczony bez /f/ krakoski

Pierwsza wymowa literowa posiada znaczną przewagę. Spotyka się ją u osób mówiących po polsku starannie, chociaż bez specjalnego wysiłku. Panuje ona u młodzieży i inteligencji, zwłaszcza młodszej. Druga wymowa [...[ jest obecnie rzadsza. Słychać ją u średniej wiekiem i starszej inteligencji, częsta jest w dialekcie miejskim. [...] Formy wymawiane z uproszczonymi grupami spółgłoskowymi, podobnie jak w innych wypadkach, są także charakterystyczne dla wymowy emfatycznej. Biorąc tedy za kryterium rzeczywistość językową, w _Słowniku_ na piewszym miejscu kładziemy formy nieuproszczone, na drugim – uproszczone; *krakowski*: krakofski // krakoski  
_Słownik wymowy polskiej_, PWN, 1977; XXXV​


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## Thomas1

And also on the "trz" cluster:

Trzy sposoby wymowy grup spółgłoskowych w wyrazach typu _trzeba_:


[tszeba] trzeba z /t/ dziąsłowym;
[czszeba] ze spółgłoską     zwartoszczelinową w nagłosie;
[czeba] ze zredukowaniem elementu     szczeliny.
 
Wymowa trzecia, uproszczona, jest powszechnie uważana za niepoprawną i rażącą. [...] W słowniku dyskwalifikujemy ją.
W wymowie wykształconych użytkowników języka ogólnopolskiego spotykamy poza tym dwie pierwsze realizacje wymienionych grup. Wymowę pierwszą typu [tszeba] spotykamy w języku spikerów radia i telewizji, w filmie, u części inteligencji. [...] najkonsekwentniej realizowana jest ona w pozycji nagłosowej i przed samogłoską: [powietsze], mniej konsekwentnie w innych pozycjach [...] Poza tymi kręgami w języku ogólnopolskim najpowszechniejsza jest wymowa druga typu [czszeba] [...] ze zwartoszczelinową w nagłosie. Taka wymowa uważana jest powszechnie za naturlnie poprawną i postulowana w dotychczasowych opracowaniach. 
 [...] w _Słowniku _na pierwszym miejscu położymy wymowę typu [czszeba] [...] jako staranną najpowszechniejszą, obok niej wymowę typu [tszeba] jako staranną, lecz mniej powszechną; w nawiasie zdyskwalifikujemy wymowę uproszczoną: *trzeba*: czszeba // tszeba (nie: czeba)
_Słownik wymowy polskiej_, PWN, 1977; XXXIV​I have changed the way of phonetic transcription since I can't transcribe the words with exactly the same symbols used in the PWN dictionary.


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## JakubikF

I think, this is the final confirmation of the previous postulates some of us have presented.


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