# speak and....understand



## LV4-26

Hi friends,

I don't know how to put this.
Reading the threads in the English Only forum, I've often noticed that when a non native asks a question, the natives seem to react as if the question was uniquely "can I say that ?".

I'll try and explain myself. We often read comments as
- I wouldn't recommend it
- You shouldn't say that, it's bad English
- Why would you want to say it this way, there are so many better alternatives ?

Don't get me wrong.* I do appreciate these comments and I think they're most useful.
*But I want more.
I mean I have the impression that the natives sometimes forget that a question in this forum has two sides, most of the time.
1. What should I say ?
2. *What am I likely to* *hear *?

When I ask a question, #2 is at least as important to me as #1. I'm eager to speak better but I'm also eager to *understand* better.(and - why not ? -to understand even those people who aren't supposed to speak correctly)

I don't know. This might be very personal. Maybe I don't have the same needs as the other non natives.

Thanks to comment if you feel it necessary.

Jean-Michel


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## panjandrum

An interesting reflection.

Back in English Only, we have discussed on various threads the tension between:
(1) formally-correct English:
(2) English as it is routinely used (with all the national and regional variations; and 
(3) English as it is used "on the street".

I am sure there are more varieties than this - I simplify for convenience.

We usually try to be clear about the difference, and often find ourselves explaining and translating the "on the street" version to one of the others.

If I understand the point, you would like to see more of (3) when we respond to the non-natives' "how do you say this?" questions.  Have I got this right?


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## LV4-26

panjandrum said:
			
		

> If I understand the point, you would like to see more of (3) when we respond to the non-natives' "how do you say this?" questions. Have I got this right?


 Not at all 
However your offer is more than welcome.

No, I guess I was just expressing a slight frustration at not being understood sometimes. (well, no wonder : the above is another evidence that my logic isn't always - shall we say? - straightforward )
But not only me. I also had the same feeling in a couple of threads I didn't contribute to. 

To make it clear I'm going to make up a totally fictional thread. What I want to point out will be grossly exaggerated.

- Hi friends. I *heard/read* this recently :  "XXXXXX". What does it mean?/Is it AE or BE?/What kind of people speak like this/, etc.. ?
- Never *say* "XXXXXXX". It's bad English/You shouldn't use "XXXXX", I've never heard it/"XXXXXX" *doesn't exist.
*
Again, be aware that the above is a mere caricature. It's never got to that point. But I thought this fictional example would make my point clearer.


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## Benjy

to be fair, i have seen things run just like your example. in fact one of my never ending sources of amusmant is when i send pms to french people and they correct my "errors". like when i drop the ne for conveniences sake etc. the most amusing is when they replicate the same thing in their own messages.

i think there is a tendance to quickly condemn things we dont hear in our own milieu. i know this is a french thread but i think it illustrates quite well what you are saying : (note esp posts #13/#17..)

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=32770

i hasten to add that further reasearch on my part since (while i was on holiday this summer) basically proved to me that les jeunes really do say c'est de la patate 




			
				LV4-26 said:
			
		

> Not at all
> However your offer is more than welcome.
> 
> No, I guess I was just expressing a slight frustration at not being understood sometimes. But not only me. I also had the same feeling in a couple of threads I didn't contribute to.
> 
> To make it clear I'm going to make up a totally fictional thread. What I want to point out will be grossly exaggerated.
> 
> - Hi friends. I *heard/read* this recently :  "XXXXXX". What does it mean?/Is it AE or BE?/What kind of people speak like this/, etc.. ?
> - Never *say* "XXXXXXX". It's bad English/You shouldn't use "XXXXX", I've never heard it/"XXXXXX" *doesn't exist.
> *
> Again, be aware that the above is a mere caricature. It's never got to that point. But I thought this fictional example would make my point clearer.


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## LV4-26

Yes, this is part of what I meant. 
I'm not surprised it also happens in the French forum. But obviously this phenomenon is harder to realize when you're on the "answering" side.


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## timpeac

Jean-Mi

"Abandon hope all ye who enter here" should be written in double bold glowing letters at the top of your thread here.

It ain't never gonna happen mate. People are conformist by nature and if old Miss Gaga their primary school teacher told them something once then that is the only right way of doing it for them. Any other discussion would seem like a potentially confusing irrelevance. They will literally not see the actual question asked. It's as if they simultaneously forgot the fact they just said the opposite of what they are recommending to their mate sitting next to them.

This may be a difference of perception because the grass is always greener, but I used to pull my hair out on a daily basis in the French forum pleading with people to "just tell me what you would say" on an issue that I knew the "official" grammatical rule on and just wanted a discussion on usage. French being so much more regulated a language it seems to me that many people can't think beyond a list of prescriptive rules any longer. In my absolutely personal opinion if there is a language question - particularly one of grammar - if they don't think they know the answer for absolutely certain the French are much more likely to say nothing at all, rather than risk - I guess - looking silly by getting the answer "wrong". In the English only forum the place seethes with people wanting to give their opinions on what they actually say. As I say, maybe that's just my perception. Anyway, now if I'm a little skeptical on something I'm being told I tend to check google more and more, and on occasion PM my French friends such as yourselves, since you can only ask the same question or make the same point so many times without looking silly. And I am soooooo much happier!!

If it's any comfort, in the English forum - and I'm sure I can speak for Panj and Cuchu here - we try to keep discussions as wide as possible. "Should I write this in my exam or will it be marked wrong" is at the upper most of many people's minds and we shouldn't forget that. However, for interest's sake alone, I personally would always try to extend the discussion from "should" to "actually does".


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## nycphotography

I think that the problem we face is that there are really two kinds of "native speakers".

There are those who treat religion, politics and language as concrete sets of rules, mostly prescribed for other people to follow, and followed personally more or less when the mood suits them.

Then there are those who treat religion, politics, and language as fluid sets of concepts, to be toyed with, studied, learned, and evolved.

Note that these two types are not on opposite sides of any particular positon, rather these are stylistic differences. They may agree or disagree on any particular point at any time! But whats important is the how and the why of the disagreement.

Now if you are asking why you can't get a Catholic to explain a the proper way to sacrifice a a chicken........

Half the battle in any academic field is learning what facts you can from the pious types, while trying to ferret out the techniques of the secular ones.


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## badgrammar

Funny, all, but I actually think (though perhaps I am paranoid ), that many of the remarks here are somewhat directed to my posts in  the thread on "agreement".  

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?p=439282#post439282

As my attempts at being humorous in reference to my most formidable English teacher (Miss Gaga  and mind you that was about 25 years ago) apparently failed, I want to say that the discussion of grammar in all its forms is fascinating.   Including being aware of "the rules", and also being aware of the exceptions to them... 

As I mentioned in my posts, there are different contexts:  Written, formal, informal, spoken, etc.  Which is why I offered my opinion on what people usually say in everyday life AND on what the official grammar rule says, according to my admittedly incomplete knowledge.

It's clear, the most important thing about learning a language is not to have a mastery of grammar, but to be able to understand others and to make yourself understood.  You can begin to do that with a handful of words.  And then you take it from there.  

I should know, I can butcher atleast 4 other languages aside from my native English and French.  And I do say gladly and without scruples, 'cuz as long as people understand me, I'm thrilled )! 

But if I were to ask a question about a grammar point in another language, I would not be shocked if someone explains the "official rule of thumb", and the reasoning behind it.  Like about the "ne" that we often don't say (or write) in French.  If someone asks, they should be told "Well, officially you need that ne, but depending on the context, you can skip it".

Et puis moi j'aime bien comment on parle dans la rue, une langue, ça vie, ça bouge, ça change, et tous les règles du monde peuevent pas arrêter ça!  Et oui, ça, mes kikis, ça c'est de la patate!





			
				timpeac said:
			
		

> Jean-Mi
> 
> "Abandon hope all ye who enter here" should be written in double bold glowing letters at the top of your thread here.
> 
> It ain't never gonna happen mate. People are conformist by nature and if old Miss Gaga their primary school teacher told them something once then that is the only right way of doing it for them. Any other discussion would seem like a potentially confusing irrelevance. They will literally not see the actual question asked. It's as if they simultaneously forgot the fact they just said the opposite of what they are recommending to their mate sitting next to them.
> 
> This may be a difference of perception because the grass is always greener, but I used to pull my hair out on a daily basis in the French forum pleading with people to "just tell me what you would say" on an issue that I knew the "official" grammatical rule on and just wanted a discussion on usage. French being so much more regulated a language it seems to me that many people can't think beyond a list of prescriptive rules any longer. In my absolutely personal opinion if there is a language question - particularly one of grammar - if they don't think they know the answer for absolutely certain the French are much more likely to say nothing at all, rather than risk - I guess - looking silly by getting the answer "wrong". In the English only forum the place seethes with people wanting to give their opinions on what they actually say. As I say, maybe that's just my perception. Anyway, now if I'm a little skeptical on something I'm being told I tend to check google more and more, and on occasion PM my French friends such as yourselves, since you can only ask the same question or make the same point so many times without looking silly. And I am soooooo much happier!!
> 
> If it's any comfort, in the English forum - and I'm sure I can speak for Panj and Cuchu here - we try to keep discussions as wide as possible. "Should I write this in my exam or will it be marked wrong" is at the upper most of many people's minds and we shouldn't forget that. However, for interest's sake alone, I personally would always try to extend the discussion from "should" to "actually does".


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## timpeac

badgrammar said:
			
		

> Funny, all, but I actually think (though perhaps I am paranoid ), that many of the remarks here are somewhat directed to my posts in the thread on "agreement".


 
Badgrammar - please don't think that!! Of _course _our discussion was not absent from my mind when I wrote what I did - but it was not at all directed at you at all, honestly. I wouldn't write this otherwise, I would just have ignored the post . I made my point and you saw what I meant. I do not criticise you at all here. The people I am criticising would not have understood what I was saying nor recognised themselves in my story.

I am talking about people who can't even make the distinctions between "culturally accepted usage" and "what people say" and you have made it abundantly clear that you can.

I can see why you thought what you did - but believe me, if I have a criticism to make of you you'll know because I won't hide it . LV26's post struck a chord, and yes a lot of pent up feelings came out, please don't take it personally.


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## Kelly B

LV4-26 said:
			
		

> - Hi friends. I *heard/read* this recently :  "XXXXXX". What does it mean?/Is it AE or BE?/What kind of people speak like this/, etc.. ?
> - Never *say* "XXXXXXX". It's bad English/You shouldn't use "XXXXX", I've never heard it/"XXXXXX" *doesn't exist.*


 Salut, Jean-Michel,
What comes to mind here are the times when, if it isn't a typographical error, it is one of those widespread errors that would appear on our list of favorite pet peeves, if we are aware of it at all. I think Benjy's patate example (referring to posted link) might be a French version of this: little kids hearing "c'est épatant" misunderstand it, repeat what they thought they heard, and eventually an entire generation is saying "c'est la patate." The previous generation will understandably persist in thinking it's wrong, because they know a better word that really means this, and also because they have not had much exposure to the "new" way.

Suppose the question is
What does this mean: "Boy, did I loose my shirt at the casino!" 
The answer will be "_Loose _is wrong. It should be _lose_. It means you _lost _all your money." 
This is true, and the vast majority of well-educated English speakers really truly think that's the end of the story. But I also know that this is an _extremely _common misuse, only because I happen to participate in another forum where a broader spectrum of people, in terms of education, participate.


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## LV4-26

badgrammar said:
			
		

> Funny, all, but I actually think (though perhaps I am paranoid ), that many of the remarks here are somewhat directed to my posts in  the thread on "agreement".
> 
> http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?p=439282#post439282


No and no. 
No, the remarks in this thread (at least mine) aren't directed to these posts and 
No, you aren't paranoid.


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## timpeac

Who says I'm paranoid and why do they want to know?


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## cirrus

1 Why do you think we would tell you?

2 I can all to easily under the frustration that this phemenon causes. It isn't limited to the French forum.  Natives can all too easily  assume non natives have got the wrong end of the stick. I took part in a thread today that illustrates this, just look at #15 in http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=61965&highlight=barquilla


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## panjandrum

Helloooo Jean-Michel!!!

I seem to recall that you began by asking about the English-Only forum.

By some strange metamorphosis, we now seem to be talking about French, Spanish, anything but English.

Would this be related to the point you are trying to make?

If it is, then I have despaired on numerous occasions in your cause. Enthusiastic responders, each taking another slightly off-topic angle on the post before. In the end, your question about sausages is coming up with answers about spray-on concrete?

There are times when mods will intervene in your support, but English-Only is a very flexible forum.

If you feel that the question you have asked has been lost in the rollicking development of the thread, you should feel free to jump in to re-focus things. I've done that myself, and usually my comment kills the thread


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## LV4-26

Yes, there's that too. The fact is I often ask several questions about the same word or expression and most of the foreros focus and debate about one of them and they're so busy arguing between each other that they forget the other questions.

My main point, I think, was to point out that some foreros there are so accustomed to reading questions starting by "can I say..." or "can I use..." that they tend to automatically answer any query as if it were of the can-I-say type.

Maybe you won't be able to find a single example of the following because I'm surely exaggerating. But a typical exchange would be "why should you want to say that ?" and me thinking "when did I say I wanted to say it? I just heard/read it and want to know if it's common, where it's said, if it is old-fashioned, how colloquial it is....."

But I'm sure I occasionally have that same reflex when I answer questions in the FR/EN forum. I guess it's a matter of carefully reading the questions (and the answers) than anything else. How many times in the EN/FR forum I've seen exchanges like "It's _XXXXX_ in French" "Quite so but Z wanted it in English"


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## cuchuflete

I don't know if this is off-topic, but Jean-Michel's request suddenly brought to mind my first child, at about age 2 1/2.

He would ask fascinating questions about almost everything.  I would answer.  He would almost invariably reply to my answer with, "Why, Papá?"   The initial answer provoked a desire to learn more, to understand better.  In itself, it was correct only as a piece of the entire answer.

I accept the critique, J-M, and will try to anticipate the unstated "Why?" behind or following the initial written questions.

Thanks for the fine provocation.

Cuchu


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