# and yet



## VicNicSor

-- MasterBuilders spend years training themselves to clear their minds enough to have even a fleeting glimpse of The Man Upstairs. *And yet*, your mind is already
so prodigiously empty that there is nothing in it to clear away in the first place. With proper training you could become a great MasterBuilder.
The Lego Movie

The "and yet" sounds odd to me here. I'd expect *but *or* however*. What do you think? Thank you.


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## JulianStuart

The richness of English  "And yet" is more common, by Ngram assessment, than "even so".  Perhaps it sounds odd because you've not come across it much before?  Then there's a lot of odd stuff you still have to learn


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## VicNicSor

JulianStuart said:


> The richness of English  "And yet" is more common, by Ngram assessment, than "even so".  Perhaps it sounds odd because you've not come across it much before?  Then there's a lot of odd stuff you still have to learn


No, I'm familiar with "and yet", I'm talking about this particular context.

These would sound fine to me:
_MasterBuilders spend years training themselves to clear their minds enough to have even a fleeting glimpse of The Man Upstairs. *And yet*, they fail to clear their minds.
MasterBuilders spend years training themselves to clear their minds enough to have even a fleeting glimpse of The Man Upstairs. *And yet*, they fail to see The Man Upstairs._

But in the OP it seems to be a different pattern: _They have to work hard to clear their mind. *But *your mind is already clear, so all you need is a little training._
To me, "and yet" would not work here...


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## AutumnOwl

I understand the "And yet" as "And yet, without having spent years of training your mind ..."


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## Myridon

VicNicSor said:


> But in the OP it seems to be a different pattern: _They have to work hard to clear their mind. *But *your mind is already clear, so all you need is a little training._
> To me, "and yet" would not work here...


Many people say that we human beings use less than 10% of our brains. If you read "you" as the general "you", everyone's minds are almost empty including Master Builders.  It takes years of training just to get rid of the very little that is there.


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## VicNicSor

AutumnOwl said:


> I understand the "And yet" as "And yet, without having spent years of training your mind ..."


But the OP is quite different. Besides, your idea, in green, corresponds to the green in the OP:
"And yet, your mind is already so prodigiously empty that there is nothing in it to clear away"


Myridon said:


> Many people say that we human beings use less than 10% of our brains. If you read "you" as the general "you", everyone's minds are almost empty including Master Builders.  It takes years of training just to get rid of the very little that is there.


Do you imply that the two pink you(r)s in the OP are the generic ones?
-- MasterBuilders spend years training themselves to clear their minds enough to have even a fleeting glimpse of The Man Upstairs. And yet, *your *mind is already
so prodigiously empty that there is nothing in it to clear away in the first place. With proper training *you *could become a great MasterBuilder.


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## Glasguensis

In your two reworded sentences you could substitute "but" or "however" for "as yet". Why do you see a problem with doing so in the OP? I agree with JS - "and yet" sounds perfectly natural, and if you think it isn't it is simply because you have a more limited view of how it can be used than we do. This is a somewhat condescending sentence which uses the relatively highbrow word "prodigiously" - "and yet" fits that tone well.


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## VicNicSor

Glasguensis said:


> Why do you see a problem with doing so in the OP?


In my two reworded sentences, the idea of a surprising fact, situation, or quality (despite of what has been said in the part before "and yet") is present, in the OP -- it isn't.


> yet
> used to introduce a fact, situation, or quality *that is surprising after what you have just said*:
> 
> She does not speak our language *and yet *she seems to understand what we say.


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## JulianStuart

VicNicSor said:


> In my two reworded sentences, the idea of a surprising fact, situation, or quality (despite of what has been said in the part before "and yet") is present, in the OP -- it isn't.


Another example of dictionaries not being complete.  Either you learn English based on what you can find in dictionaries along with a set of "rules" and reject everything else, or you learn from this forum (largely what it was created for) to go beyond those limitations.


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## VicNicSor

JulianStuart said:


> Another example of dictionaries not being complete.  Either you learn English based on what you can find in dictionaries along with a set of "rules" and reject everything else, or you learn from this forum (largely what it was created for) to go beyond those limitations.


But, do you see why I don't like the "and yet" in the OP (I mean, the distinction I draw between "and yet" and "but")?...
It's not about dictionaries being incomplete. I have found nowhere a similar to the OP example with "and yet"...


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## Vovan

VicNicSor said:


> The "and yet" sounds odd to me here. I'd expect *but *or* however*. What do you think? Thank you.


In another thread, a British speaker of English explained this usage of "yet" (which introduces a contradicting statement to the one already made) in this way:


> *yet*: but at the same time; but nevertheless
> 
> and yet


So, basically you're right: you _can_ insert "but" instead of "and yet".
But "and yet" is fine, too.



> In my two reworded sentences, the idea of a surprising fact, situation, or quality (despite of what has been said in the part before "and yet") is present, in the OP -- it isn't.


It's up to _the speaker_ to decide whether something is surprising.


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## VicNicSor

Vovan said:


> In another thread, a British speaker of English explained this usage of "yet" (which introduces a contradicting statement to the one already made)


But note how the sentence at that thread differs from the OP:


MilkyBarKid said:


> The first part of the sentence says, 'we'll *outline to them exactly what we want them to do*', and the second part, 'we'll *allow them to use their own judgment*' (which might mean ignoring the 'clear guidance'!)


We have two contrasting statements here, about the same pilots.
But in the OP, the parts before and after "and yet" are connected only indirectly -- at first he talks about Masterbuilders, and then about the listener.


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## Vovan

*VicNicSor*

What allow us to see the connection are the words:
"(they) *spend years* training themselves... to have even a glimpse" in the first part, and
"your mind *is already*..." in the second.

We don't know the plot, but consider this:

"and yet" can be subjective and emphatic;
the speaker may have wanted to flatter the guy by expressing his having been amazed.


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## VicNicSor

Vovan said:


> What allow us to see the connection are the words:
> "(they) *spend years* training themselves... to have even a glimpse" in the first part, and
> "your mind *is already*..." in the second.


That's why I called it "connected only indirectly". There's some contrast, but not enough to use "and yet". That struck me once I heard the OP and is still striking me.

I'd want it to be "_.... *but your *mind is already so prodigiously empty that ..._", with an emphatic stress on "your".



Vovan said:


> by expressing his having been amazed.


I'm not sure what you mean here, but the guy is dumb -- that's why his mind is "clear", and the speaker is encouraging him.


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## exgerman

You have to assume an ellipsis. "Master builders work hard to empty their minds. That process is probably too hard for you, and yet, your mind is empty already so maybe you have a chance to become one after all. "


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## DaylightDelight

VicNicSor said:


> There's some contrast, but not enough to use "and yet". That struck me once I heard the OP and is still striking me.


I think you need to think from the opposite direction.  The contrast may not seem bing enough for "and yet" so the usage seems odd to you.  Rather, you have to assume the contrast is big enough (at least for the characters) *because* "and yet" is used here.


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## Forero

"And yet" says a little more than plain "but". I would say it means "but still" (or "but nevertheless", "but even so", or "but despite that"). I have not seen the Lego movie, so I can't say much more than that.


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## Vovan

VicNicSor said:


> There's some contrast, but not enough [for me] to use "and yet".


It was someone else, with their own reasoning and, possibly, hidden motives. We are supposed to _interpret_ fiction - all the more so when fictional characters' language is analysed.

In my opinion, your OP question mostly deals with a fictional character's logic, not the semantics of "and yet". In a way, you yourself has already stated this: when you said that you saw such a usage for the first time.


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## Glasguensis

As we have tried to say many times before, native speakers do not limit themselves to precise meanings/usages they have found in dictionaries. Indeed many have never consulted the dictionary entry concerned. Scriptwriters are no different - they write dialogue the way they imagine their character would speak, with their own habits (sometimes bad) and idiosyncrasies. People often use a word or expression in a way which falls beteeen various dictionary definitions, or pushes one usage a little further. Using "and yet" in a situation which may have a lower degree of surprise than you, Vic, expect, is hardly breaking the rules. Indeed it is entirely normal to have these minor "discrepancies". People who don't have them stand out because they are so unusual.


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## elroy

It is surprising/remarkable/noteworthy that your mind is already so empty, since it usually takes years of training to reach that state of emptiness.


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## VicNicSor

exgerman said:


> You have to assume an ellipsis. "Master builders work hard to empty their minds. That process is probably too hard for you, and yet, your mind is empty already so maybe you have a chance to become one after all. "


But the point is you didn't reveal an ellipsis, but rather replaced the contrasting ideas. In the OP it was "they have to empty their minds" vs "yours is already empty", in yours it's "it's hard for you" vs "you can". And yes, in your rewriting "and yet" fits more, esp if you put the green part after "and yet":
_That process is probably too hard for you, and yet you have a chance to become one after all, because your mind is empty already so maybe.
-------_
I have just found a short video on YT, called "BUT vs. YET: What's the difference?", which exactly represents what I've been telling here: that "but" has the idea of "however" and that "yet" is stronger and more surprising than "but", and there are cases where one is more appropriate than the other.
She gives an example: "He's ugly _but/yet_ I've never seen him without a girlfriend." and says that "but" is more logical than "yet" there. But anyway, even here, I personally think YET and BUT are interchangeable in this sentence. Unlike the OP, where YET, to me, doesn't fit. Or, at least, looks much worse than "but".

Thank you, everybody!


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## elroy

Vic, "yet" fits, without an ellipsis, for the reason I gave in #20.


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## VicNicSor

elroy said:


> Vic, "yet" fits, without an ellipsis, for the reason I gave in #20.


Sorry, I disagree. The fact that his mind is empty is not surprising because he has not spent years to empty it, as others have to.
It would be surprising enough, e.g., here: "You have been emptying your mind for 10 years, *and yet *it is still full of stuff."
"And yet" expresses the idea that something happens despite of something else, which is not the case in the OP.


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## elroy

VicNicSor said:


> The fact that his mind is empty is not surprising because he has not spent years to empty it, as others have to.


 That's exactly why it's surprising!!!


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## Edinburgher

VicNicSor said:


> "And yet" expresses the idea that something happens despite of something else, which is not the case in the OP.


I think you are expecting "and yet" to introduce only a strong contrast.  And yet you say:


VicNicSor said:


> I'd want it to be "_.... *but your *mind is already so prodigiously empty that ..._", with an emphatic stress on "your".


But "but" also introduces a contrast, so you acknowledge that there is a contrast (yes?), just a weaker one.

Just think of "and yet" meaning the same as "but", and you should be happy.  Although when we say "and yet" there is typically a stress on "yet", there is no reason why there should not be an even stronger stress on the next word.


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## VicNicSor

Edinburgher said:


> I think you are expecting "and yet" to introduce only a strong contrast.  And yet you say:
> 
> But "but" also introduces a contrast, so you acknowledge that there is a contrast (yes?), just a weaker one.
> 
> Just think of "and yet" meaning the same as "but", and you should be happy.  Although when we say "and yet" there is typically a stress on "yet", there is no reason why there should not be an even stronger stress on the next word.


Yes, there is a contrast, a weaker one, but, as the person in the video I mentioned says, the difference is a difference of degree. And in this particular case, the OP, I think it makes all the difference.


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## JulianStuart

VicNicSor said:


> And in this particular case, the OP, I think it makes all the difference.


Feel free  When you write dialogue for English-speaking characters you will be able to write it so _you_ don't find it odd.


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## DaylightDelight

VicNicSor said:


> The fact that his mind is empty is not surprising because he has not spent years to empty it, as others have to.


I fail to see your logic here.  Everyone else had to work hard to empty their mind, but his mind is already empty *despite* has not spent years to empty it.  How this is not surprising?


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## VicNicSor

DaylightDelight said:


> I fail to see your logic here.  Everyone else had to work hard to empty their mind, but his mind is already empty *despite has not spent years to empty it*.  How this is not surprising?


Something hast to happen (or not happen) despite of what has been mentioned in the part before "and yet", like in my two reworded sentences in #3. "Not spending years to empty it" is not something the first part of the OP talks about. Moreover, it's the opposite of it.


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## elroy

DaylightDelight said:


> Everyone else had to work hard to empty their mind, but his mind is already empty *despite* has not spent years to empty it.  How this is not surprising?


 

Another example:
_
Most people who are fluent in three foreign languages had to study them for ten years or more to reach fluency in all three - and yet here you are, totally fluent in three foreign languages you've only been studying for two years._

Vic, you can argue using twisted, enigmatic "logic" all you want, but the fact remains that both the original sentence and my sentence above use "and yet" in perfectly natural, idiomatic ways that align with dictionary definitions and any other metalinguistic explanations of the phrase.


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## VicNicSor

elroy said:


> Another example:
> _
> Most people who are fluent in three foreign languages had to study them for ten years or more to reach fluency in all three - and yet here you are, totally fluent in three foreign languages you've only been studying for two years._
> 
> Vic, you can argue using twisted, enigmatic "logic" all you want, but the fact remains that both the original sentence and my sentence above use "and yet" in perfectly natural, idiomatic ways that align with dictionary definitions and any other metalinguistic explanations of the phrase.



In your example, there's a little more contrast/surprise: people study languages for not less than ten years, yet you spent only two.

The surprise is that 10 years were expected but you did it in 2 years. Surprise? Yes.

In the OP, again, there's no surprise: years of training are expected to emply the mind. His mind is already empty, but for an entirely different reason. He's dumb. Surprise? No. There's nothing surprising in being dumb and having an emply mind. Besides, it has anything to do with the previous sentence. If his mind was emply as a result of training for only a week -- that would be a surprise.

Here yet - definition of yet in English | Oxford Dictionaries is a long list of example sentences of yet as a conjunction (click "+more example sentences"). Could you find one similar to the OP?...


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## elroy

The surprise is that his mind is empty without the years of training.  Period.  None of the details you keep bringing up are relevant.


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## DaylightDelight

VicNicSor said:


> Surprise? No.


Not to YOU, maybe.  But is IS, to the speaker in the OP.


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## Vovan

VicNicSor said:


> He's dumb. Surprise? No. There's nothing surprising in being...



I'll make up a text for you:


> He's been desperately lonely for years; and evidently unhappy, too. And yet, no "decent" member of that "noble" community has ever tried to make friends with him, or at least, to find out the reason for his solitude...


Is there any "surprise" here?


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## VicNicSor

Vovan said:


> I'll make up a text for you:
> 
> Is there any "surprise" here?



At least there is a direct connection between the two sentences. And yes, a little surprise too. You would've expected him to finally make a friend with someone after being lonely for years, but still ...


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## Vovan

*VicNicSor,* there might occur "no connection" between the two sentences should we have read the beginning of the main character's story. The focus of the second sentence is not on him but on the "noble society" which, just as you, doesn't know about his past...

Did the "dumb" one know about his "dumbness"? Would the mystic have wanted him to know about it? Etc. etc. He said what he said. He had his reasons. From what I've read in a short review of the film, the mystic wanted the dumb guy to save the Lego World, or something...


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## Edinburgher

VicNicSor said:


> At least there is a direct connection between the two sentences. And yes, a little surprise too.


You *don't need* surprise.  You *don't need* direct connection.  All you need is *some* contrast.
By and large, "but", "however", "nevertheless", and "and yet" are all interchangeable.
We don't understand why you reject "and yet", and yet would find "but" and "however" acceptable (as you said in #1).

Everyone is telling you this.  Believe it.


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## JulianStuart

VicNicSor said:


> At least there is a direct connection between the two sentences. And yes, a little surprise too. You would've expected him to finally make a friend with someone after being lonely for years, but still ...



At least there is a direct connection between the two sentences. And yes, a little surprise too. You would've expected him to finally make a friend with someone after being lonely for years, and yet...


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## VicNicSor

Vovan said:


> *VicNicSor,* there might occur "no connection" between the two sentences should we have read the beginning of the main character's story. The focus of the second sentence is not on him but on the "noble society" which, just as you, doesn't know about his past...


You're describing the same situation, the same person in both sentences. That's the connection. And all those years mentioned include his past too...



JulianStuart said:


> At least there is a direct connection between the two sentences. And yes, a little surprise too. You would've expected him to finally make a friend with someone after being lonely for years,* and yet*...


That's exactly what I meant


Edinburgher said:


> You *don't need* surprise.  You *don't need* direct connection.  All you need is *some* contrast.
> By and large, "but", "however", "nevertheless", and "and yet" are all interchangeable.
> We don't understand why you reject "and yet", and yet would find "but" and "however" acceptable (as you said in #1).
> 
> Everyone is telling you this.  Believe it.


Ok, it's just then all about nuances or perception. For some reason Elroy's and Vovan's sentences in #30 and #34 look OK to me while the OP doesn't.

Thank you to everyone!


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## Forero

This _yet_ is not the conjunction but the adverb (it comes between _and_ and a comma). It means "still". Of course "still" has various possible meanings too, but the idea is not surprise but continuity. It might mean "even so", "nevertheless" or "despite" something or "in spite of" something, but it does not have to.


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## VicNicSor

Forero said:


> This _yet_ is not the conjunction but the adverb (it comes between _and_ and a comma). It means "still". Of course "still" has various possible meanings too, but the idea is not surprise but continuity. It might mean "even so", "nevertheless" or "despite" something or "in spite of" something, but it does not have to.


I wouldn't trust the punctuation here much. Personally I think it should've been a comma before "and yet".
Do you mean this meaning of yet as an adverb?:


> 2) still; even (used to emphasize increase or repetition)
> snow, snow, and yet more snow
> yet another diet book
> the rations were reduced yet again


It looks to me different from the OP. In the OP it definitely connects two independent clauses (even sentences), as conjunctions do


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## Forero

VicNicSor said:


> I wouldn't trust the punctuation here much. Personally I think it should've been a comma before "and yet".
> Do you mean this meaning of yet as an adverb?:
> 
> It looks to me different from the OP. In the OP it definitely connects two independent clauses (even sentences), as conjunctions do


Two coordinating conjunctions in a row acting as one? I don't think so. "and but" "but and" "and nor"

And I think the punctuation is correct. _Yet_ here modifies the whole following clause. "Besides" might be a good synonym.


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## VicNicSor

Forero said:


> Two coordinating conjunctions in a row acting as one? I don't think so. "and but" "but and" "and nor"


Yes. Look please at this, abot the conjunction yet:


> We use *yet* as the preferred alternative to *but *when we want to emphasise that contrast to achieve* a stronger effect*:
> 
> 
> She can play the piano very well, *yet* she can’t read music at all.
> The yachtsman had lost all sense of direction, *yet* he refused to give up in his attempt to cross the Atlantic.
> We * sometimes put and in front of yet when it is used in this way* or use *even so* as an alternative to *yet* or *and yet*:
> 
> 
> She can play the piano very well,* and yet* she can’t read music at all.
> The yachtsman had lost all sense of direction. *Even so*, he refused to give up in his attempt to cross the Atlantic.


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## Vovan

VicNicSor said:


> Do you mean this meaning of *yet* as an adverb?


I guess *Forero* means _"a sentence adverb"_ which is an adverb that relates to a whole sentence (_"an introductory word/phrase"_ in the Russian grammatical tradition is about the same). 
So, it's only a matter of terminology here.


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## VicNicSor

Vovan said:


> I guess *Forero* means _"a sentence adverb"_ which is an adverb that relates to a whole sentence (_"an introductory word/phrase"_ in the Russian grammatical tradition is about the same).
> So, it's only a matter of terminology here.


I don't think he meant that, those are words such as frankly, obviously, hopefully, thankfully and so on.
But I really don't see what's wrong with "yet" as a conjunction used with "and". Apart from the quote from BBC in #43, dictionaries give these under the conjunction yet:
He has a good job, *and yet* he never seems to have any money. (OALD)
Everyone seemed pleased, *and yet* I had the feeling that something was wrong. (M-W)


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## Vovan

VicNicSor said:


> I don't think he meant that, those are words such as frankly, obviously, hopefully, thankfully and so on.


With _-ly_ only, you suppose?


> Other sentence adverbs of this type are _accordingly, consequently, *hence*, *moreover*, similarly_, and_ *therefore*_.
> 
> Sentence Adverbs @ The Internet Grammar of English


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## Vovan

VicNicSor said:


> But I really don't see what's wrong with "yet" as a conjunction used with "and".


Nothing wrong, really. You're having a debate over terminology (which, I have to say, won't lead you anywhere).

There are conjunctions and conjunctions. Sometimes, two sentences connected with a conjunction are loosely related. Such a conjunction is similar, as Forero noted, to things like "besides", or "at that", etc. It sort of "takes into account" what's been said earlier and acts like a sentence adverb.

_She even wasn't there. And yet, she considers herself to blame.
She even wasn't there. Strangely, she considers herself to blame._


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## VicNicSor

Vovan said:


> With _-ly_ only, you suppose?


Not only. But anyway, "yet" is not on the list of sentences adverbs.
---


Vovan said:


> Such a conjunction is similar, as Forero noted, to things like "besides", or "at that", etc. It sort of "takes into account" what's been said earlier and acts like a sentence adverb.


Forero said "besides" might be a synonym for "yet" in question. With which I have to disagree, or if I understand his point correctly...


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## Forero

VicNicSor said:


> Not only. But anyway, "yet" is not on the list of sentences adverbs.
> ---
> 
> Forero said "besides" might be a synonym for "yet" in question. With which I have to disagree, or if I understand his point correctly...


Yes, _yet_ can be a sentence adverb, and yes, _yet_ probably means "besides" in this context.

I said this _yet_ probably means "still", and _still_ can mean "besides". "And besides" fits the context, so why do you see a problem with it?

I have to disagree that _and yet_ is always synonymous with _yet_.


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## VicNicSor

Forero said:


> I have to disagree that _and yet_ is always synonymous with _yet_.


I didn't say that. In the quote I provided in #41, there's an example of the adverb "yet": "snow, snow, *and yet* more snow", and they say it means "still".


Forero said:


> Yes, _yet_ can be a sentence adverb, and yes, _yet_ probably means "besides" in this context.


There are lists of sentence adverbs and _yet _is not on any of them


Forero said:


> I said this _yet_ probably means "still", and _still_ can mean "besides". "And besides" fits the context, so why do you see a problem with it?


But it even contradicts what you said in #40. I mean, "even so", "nevertheless" or "despite" express a different from "besides" idea...


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## Vovan

About the difference between "yet" and "and yet":



> When you find yourself using the phrase _*and yet*_, consider whether any meaning would be lost if _and _were dropped. When _yet _is used as a conjunction, _and yet_ is redundant, and _and _could usually be cut.
> 
> _The numbers do offer a sobering picture, [and] yet it’s far from all gloom and doom._
> 
> Elsewhere, _and yet_ at the start of a sentence is rhetorical shorthand, often followed by a comma and usually meaning, “That may be so, but…”
> This use of _and yet _is less questionable because it’s a common figure of speech.
> 
> And yet - Grammarist


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## Forero

VicNicSor said:


> I didn't say that. In the quote I provided in #41, there's an example of the adverb "yet": "snow, snow, *and yet* more snow", and they say it means "still".
> 
> There are lists of sentence adverbs and _yet _is not on any of them
> 
> But it even contradicts what you said in #40. I mean, "even so", "nevertheless" or "despite" express a different from "besides" idea...


Yes, as in "snow, snow, and yet more snow", but with clauses instead of a repeating noun. Yes, it means "still", but which "still" ("even", "nevertheless", "besides")?

My main point is that it has lots of possible meanings. I think "and besides" fits better than "and nevertheless" in the context that started this thread. Both are possible interpretations.


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## Glasguensis

Personally I see "besides" as a synonym for "furthermore", so I don't see how that fits in the OP. 

The original question was whether we saw anything odd with the use of "and yet" in the OP, or if it was just Vic, and I think that question has been answered. Vic can quite happily continue to find it odd and the rest of us will be unaffected. Indeed Vic will be unaffected provided he doesn't try to correct others who use "and yet" in contrasting situations he doesn't find "severe" enough. 

Personally I would have used "That being said" or "On the other hand", but I find nothing wrong with "and yet".


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