# luoghi (non) comuni



## anglomania1

Hi there, 
I'm translating an article about wine.... again!
*"Luoghi (non) comuni"* is actually the title of the article.
Just for context, the article starts ....
"Presentando il suo ultimo libro, _Numero zero_, Umberto Eco ha sottolineato che uno dei peggiori difetti degli italiani è la memoria corta. Possibile? E allora come mai, quando devono affrontare un cambiamento si trincerano sempre dietro la tradizione, che è il complesso delle memorie trasmesso da una generazione all’altra? 
Then it goes on to talk about Chianti.

Anyway, I've seen that luoghi comuni means sterotypes or clichés, but how to fit this into a decent title.

Here are some ideas:

*(Non) stereotypes
(Not so) cliché *or *(not so) clichéd
*
I'd be grateful for any comments or suggestions - thanks!

Anglo


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## sorry66

A truism that's not true.

Common sense is not so common.


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## anglomania1

sorry66 said:


> A truism that's not true.


Hi there, 
this one's quite nice, thanks!
I'm not sure about the "common sense" suggestion though, as a "luogo comune" is a stereotype or cliché, which in this article proves to be unfounded.
Hey, maybe "(unfounded) clichés"???
Thanks, 
Anglo


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## sorry66

anglomania1 said:


> "(unfounded) clichés"


Yes, or 'a cliché turned on its head'


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## anglomania1

Nice, too, thanks


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## sorry66

Or in the context of wine: 'Breaking with tradition'


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## anglomania1

sorry66 said:


> Or in the context of wine: 'Breaking with tradition'


You're on a roll, now!!
Thanks so much for your help, I was stuck with just a couple of ideas and now I have lots!
Anglo


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## Tellure

Che ne dici di qualcosa con ( false) Myths?


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## sorry66

Yes, that could work: The Myth of ...


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## Lorena1970

(Un)common sense


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## sorry66

Anglo said it didn't mean 'common sense'?!

You can also say' uncommon good sense'


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## Lorena1970

The issue in this title is about wanting or not to translate the pun.

The author quotes Umberto Eco, who is the most distinguished linguist and communication expert Italy has, and then deals with Chianti, a Region so renowned to have become a collection of clichés. I assume that the article deals with looking for some new  wines or anyway something different from what we already know about Chianti.
That said, the title "LUOGHI (NON ) COMUNI" expresses the vision by playing on the definition we have "LUOGHI COMUNI" (what people says about things only having heard of them from word of mouth not developing a personal and informed opinion) adding that (NON) to slightly imply that the article deals with something that is contradictory with what  LUOGHI COMUNI says.

I think that it would be important to render this, if possible of course.

Given that "luoghi comuni" are often paired with "buon senso" in Italian, I just thought that, if it sounded good re the contents of the piece (UN) COMMON SENSE could do the trick, even if it is not a literal translation. Only Anglo, who knows about contents, can realize if it works or  not.


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## sorry66

Lorena1970 said:


> we have "LUOGHI COMUNI" (what people says about things only having heard of them from word of mouth not developing a personal and informed opinion)


I think the problem in English is that 'common sense' is just 'buon senso' - the way you reason - and nothing more.


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## Blackman

Io lo leggo così: _luoghi comuni_ è da intendersi principalmente come _posti conosciuti, _dove vanno tutti, quelli che fanno da riferimento per tutto il territorio (non so, Milano è la lombardia o Londra è tutta l'Inghilterra). Con l'aggiunta di (non) diventa _posti non conosciuti. _Posti conosciuti si trasforma poi in luoghi comuni, generando il gioco di parole, che però non ha alcun effetto sul significato finale: i cliché, gli stereotipi e i luoghi comuni non hanno un ruolo. Solo leggendo l'articolo per intero però, potrei permettermi di insistere su questa interpretazione.


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## Lorena1970

Blackman said:


> Io lo leggo così: _luoghi comuni_ è da intendersi principalmente come _posti conosciuti, _dove vanno tutti, quelli che fanno da riferimento per tutto il territorio (non so, Milano è la lombardia o Londra è tutta l'Inghilterra). Con l'aggiunta di (non) diventa _posti non conosciuti. _Posti conosciuti si trasforma poi in luoghi comuni, generando il gioco di parole, che però non ha alcun effetto sul significato finale: i cliché, gli stereotipi e i luoghi comuni non hanno un ruolo. Solo leggendo l'articolo per intero però, potrei permettermi di insistere su questa interpretazione.



Sono d'accordo. Intendevo inclusa anche questa visione nel gioco di parole, forse non l'ho specificato. Io avevo IMMAGINATO un mix tra luoghi in senso geografico, luoghi comuni in senso linguistico e il "non" che smentisce entrambi, ovvero un articolo che parla di località vinicole fuori dai percorsi tradizionali e di vinificazione "alternativa" che sfata, forse, la tradizione. Ma, ripeto, è il viaggio che mi sono fatta e senza leggere l'articolo è impossibile capire dove sta il gioco di parole. La citazione di Umberto Eco mi ha spinta verso la lingua in primis, ma posso anche io sbagliare. E' comunque certo, a mio avviso, che non si può tradurre senza tener conto del significato. My 2 cents.


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## anglomania1

Hi there and thanks to everyone!

I think we have a bit of confusion here between:
1. luogo comune = cliché/stereotype
2. luogo comune = geographical places
3. common sense = buon senso, which has nothing to with the other two except for the term "common"- but there is no connection in menaing at all!!

My article is definitely talking about the first definition (cliché/sterotype).
After the title "*luoghi (non) comuni*" there is a subtitle "
*Nostalgici della tradizione? Il caso del Chianti insegna*


It's difficult to explain without giving you the whole article, but as I said in my original post, Eco says the Italians have a short memory, then the article goes on to say that, if this is true, why do Italians hide behind tradition when facing a change?
It then talks about Super Tuscans, saying that their era seems to be over and a lot of people are not upset about this. Tradition leads to rules which can become a burden.
This is the gist of the article, so it does not talk about geographical places but tradition.
Does this help a bit?

The best suggestions so far have been:
*(false) myths
breaking with tradition
(un)clichéd
a cliché turned on its head*

Any further comments?
Thanks to all of you for your help, 
Anglo


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## Lorena1970

anglomania1 said:


> It then talks about Super Tuscans, saying that their era seems to be over and a lot of people are not upset about this. Tradition leads to rules which can become a burden.



Living in Tuscany and "breathing the air" of changes, that's exactly what I thought...!
There are changes ongoing in the wine field.....I know that Supertuscan are no longer appreciated as they were before, and there are many biodynamic cellars which are experimenting new wines. No idea if your piece is about that, but the real situation is about that.

So: what "Luoghi (non) comuni " refers to? I am tempted to think that it refers to the fact that Supertuscan or similar were officially considered amongst the best wines and people came here for them, and this is no longer true. It may be like that or am I off track? It sound still difficult, to me at least, understanding WHY such a title....sorry.


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## anglomania1

Lorena1970 said:


> Living in Tuscany and "breathing the air" of changes, that's exactly what I thought...!
> There are changes ongoing in the wine field.....I know that Supertuscan are no longer appreciated as they were before, and there are many biodynamic cellars which are experimenting new wines. No idea if your piece is about that, but the real situation is about that.
> 
> So: what "Luoghi (non) comuni " refers to? I am tempted to think that it refers to the fact that Supertuscan or similar were officially considered amongst the best wines and people came here for them, and this is no longer true. It may be like that or am I off track? It sound still difficult, to me at least, understanding WHY such a title....sorry.


Hi Lo!
I agree, I keep asking myself the same question!!
From the article I understand that according to Eco the Italians have a short memory, but the article says that if this were true the Italians wouldn't find it so hard to break with tradition (which they find hard to do).
From what websites are saying, the Super Tuscans were seen at the time as (from the article) "frutto d’avventate innovazioni che hanno omologato i gusti e auspicano  (i siti web) il ritorno al momento magico in cui la vitivinicoltura toscana sapeva esprimersi con assoluta autenticità."
Those who hate the Super Tuscans do so because these wines broke with tradition - does this sound like Italians have a short memory? And precisely what is Tradition? The article gives a definition from a dictionary. What tradition are they referring to? From the article: "La tradizione a cui si rifà chi detesta i Super Tuscan non può essere altro che quella del Chianti, ed è indubbiamente gloriosa."

So we have the cliché that Italians have a short memory but the truth is very different.
Chianti is given as an example. The formula was invented by Ricasoli, but didn't give long-lived wines so the formula was changed to use more productive grapes, but losing "il fascino della diversità" Then the DOC rules came along insisting on the original formula. When somebody wanted to do something different or praised innovation he was insulted
This is the closing sentence of the article: 
Ha ragione Eco a lamentare la rapidità con cui gli italiani dimenticano: il sonno della memoria genera falsi miti.

Does that make sense?

Though I think I would have given the article a completely different title, but you know what wine journalists are like
Anglo


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## Lorena1970

Sounds like an article filled in with quotes. "Il sonno della memoria genera falsi miti" is a quote from Quasimodo "Il sonno della memoria genera mostri".
The problem with Super Tuscans is complicated because they tried to evolve the classic Tuscan Chianti years ago, so that it became more similar to certain French wines than to the classic Chianti, but at same time Super Tuscan were highly appreciated by USA, UK and Germany. Now it's again a different era. I have sent you a pm.


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## Lorena1970

OK! Clear!!! "Luoghi (non) comuni" is the name of the *magazine section*, *NOT the title of the piece*! So it refers no doubts to the concept of "luoghi comuni" (clichés) that in this section are somehow discussed and investigated. In this case, the "luogo comune" is (I think) that Italians have short memory . Which is true and fake at same time. Given that  the Super Tuscans were created back in time and that in 1970 was created the S*******a (although put on sale 12 years later), a wine that broke with tradition and became probably the most famous Italian wine in the world, when people in the web complain about that woman saying that they appreciate the lack of tradition, they forgot that it really was by breaking with tradition that a famous wine was created (some famous wines). So in effect Eco is right: Italians think of tradition in a way that doesn't correspond to the truth, i.e. they think that Super Tuscan are traditional wines not knowing that they were created by breaking traditional rules. So "il sonno......" means, I suppose, that lack of memory fuels the existence of myths (those of Super Tuscan being traditional wines) and "luoghi comuni" which are fake. This is what I understood, given that I know a bit of wines but not enough to understand such a complicate (and a bit stretched) mixture of Eco, luoghi comuni and wine making. Does this vision make sense to you ....? Finally, do you really have to translate "luoghi non comuni" ? It should be already translated if the English version of magazine exists since long time...? I suggest you ask the publisher before getting mad! Or am I wrong and you HAVE TO?


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## anglomania1

Lorena1970 said:


> OK! Clear!!! "Luoghi (non) comuni" is the name of the *magazine section*, *NOT the title of the piece*!  It should be already translated if the English version of magazine exists since long time...? I suggest you ask the publisher before getting mad! Or am I wrong and you HAVE TO?


Hi Lo
I see, so it's the name of the column, then! This magazine has been around for over 40 years but the online English version is starting now!  So it could be that I need to be the first to translate the title of the column.

By the way, the only "Eco" bit is the first quote about Italians having a short memory, the rest is the journalist writing.
I'm not sure about the bit about Italians thinking Super Tuscans are traditional wines - it says that people didn't like the idea 40-50 years ago and even now the feeling from websites is that a lot of people will not be upset by the fact their era is over. I got the impression that people didn't/don't like them because they broke/break with tradition. Even at the end of the article a producer's daughter was insulted because she said she appreciated "lo spirito di innovazione: prendere le cose da zero senza il peso della tradizione”. Non l’avesse mai detto, fu coperta di contumelie..."
I understood it more that Italians like tradition (hence all the problems above with accepting the Super Tuscans) but that they also have a short memory because the article explains that the wonderful tradition of Chianti doesn't really exist at all- it was also an invention like Super Tuscans, but this is conveniently forgotten.
Would this make sense?
Thanks,
Anglo

Ps if it was to be translated, what should I go for? "(Non) clichés" ?? "False myths?" Boh!


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## Lorena1970

anglomania1 said:


> I see, so it's the name of the column, then! This magazine has been around for over 40 years but the online English version is starting now!  So it could be that I need to be the first to translate the title of the column.
> OK
> I understood it more that Italians like tradition (hence all the problems above with accepting the Super Tuscans) but that they also have a short memory because the article explains that the wonderful tradition of Chianti doesn't really exist at all- it was also an invention like Super Tuscans, but this is conveniently forgotten.
> Would this make sense? Similar to what I tried to say....I think you got it! I really don't know enough about wine history, although I know about the diatribes oon Super Tuscan, for obvious reasons...!
> Thanks,
> Anglo
> 
> Ps if it was to be translated, what should I go for? "(Non) clichés" ?? "False myths?" Boh!


How about "(Not) clichés"? Also (non)clichés if sounds good to you is ok. That's the meaning. A column that discuss about things taken as a cliché which are no longer clichés.


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## anglomania1

Lorena1970 said:


> How about "(Not) clichés"? Also (non)clichés if sounds good to you is ok. That's the meaning. A column that discuss about things taken as a cliché which are no longer clichés.


Ok, thanks for that! I'll translate it and hope they appreciate all this effort!!
Thanks for all your time, Lo
Anglo


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## sorry66

Exploding (false) myths.

Pseudo-myths exploded.


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## Lorena1970

It comes to my mind also "Off clichés" if it makes sense to B ears...?


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## sorry66

Fabricated clichés.

Common misconceptions.

The cliché that never was.

Clinging to false myths.

_Plus see edit above._

I also think your original 'not so clichéd' could do the trick nicely.


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## chipulukusu

What about _the (un)usual suspects_? Sometimes the title of a well-known movie can do the trick! . 
By the way, I learned a lot from this thread, because _I know nothing _about the wines of Tuscany, though I know a bit about Veronese wines!


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## Lorena1970

sorry66 said:


> I also think your original 'not so clichéd' could do the trick nicely.



"*not that clichéd*" would work as well? Sounds better to my (not)native ears


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## sorry66

'not so clichéd' sounds better.


chipulukusu said:


> _the (un)usual suspects_


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## tsoapm

Just for the record, we do have the noun "commonplace", "A trite saying or topic; a platitude" (OED). Not widely used these days that I've noticed, however.


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## anglomania1

Hi there everyone, 
"not so cliché" gets over 50,000 hits on google, slightly more than "non cliché" so I think either could work.
I've never heard of "off cliché" and I'm not sure about the "unusual suspects", either, as I think here the title is supposed to be talking about clichés that are proved wrong and I wouldn't understand that from such a title.
As for commonplace, I did think of that, too, but discarded the idea because it is not really to do with stereotypes and clichés, which I think the article is.
The dictionary gives this definition of commonplace, so I don't really think it's the right term (it just happens to be a literal translation of "luogo comune", but not with the same meaning!)
Hope this clears things up and thanks for all your useful suggestions, 
Anglo


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## tsoapm

anglomania1 said:


> The dictionary gives this definition of commonplace, so I don't really think it's the right term (it just happens to be a literal translation of "luogo comune", but not with the same meaning!)


I don’t follow you: which definition suggests that it’s not the right term/has a different meaning?


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## anglomania1

tsoapm said:


> I don’t follow you: which definition suggests that it’s not the right term/has a different meaning?


Hi there,
sorry, I don't think I was very clear, I'll try to explain.
what I meant was that if you break down the word "commonplace" you _would think_ it meant the same as "luogo comune" because _luogo = place _and _comune = common_.
But "commonplace" does not have the same meaning as the Italian "luogo comune". "Luogo comune" either means "a common place" referring to a geographical place or it means "stereotype/cliché".
The noun "commonplace" means neither geographical place nor stereotype, it means "something that is not unusual, new or interesting/a banality".
Does that make sense?
Anglo

PS I do see where you're coming from with "commonplace" meaning something trite and hackneyed through over use, but I'm not sure it would be understood as a stereotype in my title, which is what I need to get across. It could just be understood as meaning something "banal"


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## tsoapm

On that page, one definition is:


> an obvious or trite comment :  truism


and you seemed to approve of "truism" earlier. Plus, it seems like a good match for the OED definition I posted (including "trite saying").

MW also gives banality and cliché as synonyms for it.


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## anglomania1

tsoapm said:


> On that page, one definition is:
> and you seemed to approve of "truism" earlier. Plus, it seems like a good match for the OED definition I posted (including "trite saying").
> 
> MW also gives banality and cliché as synonyms for it.


Hi there, 
I see your point, though I didn't find "cliché" as a synonym for commonplace in MW!!!
Synonyms
average, common, ordinary, cut-and-dried (_also_ cut-and-dry), everyday, garden-variety,normal, prosaic, routine, run-of-the-mill, standard, standard-issue, unexceptional,unremarkable, usual, workaday

I think the problem is what someone would immediately understand by "commonplace" and I'm not convinced that "cliché" would be the first thing that comes to mind. As my translation is a column title for a magazine, it needs to be very immediate, which incidentally is one of the reasons I discarded "truism", as "truism that is not true" is too long, and, although I said it was "quite nice", we have "cliché", so why not use that?!

Anyway thanks for your input, you've made me rethink about commonplace and what it means
Anglo


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## tsoapm

Spoiler: Not actually off-topic, but perhaps rather tedious...






anglomania1 said:


> I didn't find "cliché" as a synonym for commonplace in MW!!!


It’s there: cross my heart and hope to die! There are different list of synonyms because it has more than one sense. Yours is a list of adjectives and mine of nouns, higher up.


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## sorry66

I see where you coming from, tsoapm, but like Anglo I thought of it too (and common or garden as well) and discarded it.
She's also discarded 'trusim' now, too, anyway.

truism - a true statement that is very commonly heard : a common statement that is obviously true
commonplace -  an idea, expression, remark, etc., that is not new or interesting
: something that happens or appears in many places and is not unusual

I think with _commonplace_ most of us would immediately think of 'not unusual/ ordinary and uninteresting' whereas truism is more directly like _cliché_.


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## anglomania1

tsoapm said:


> Spoiler: Not actually off-topic, but perhaps rather tedious...
> 
> 
> 
> It’s there: cross my heart and hope to die! There are different list of synonyms because it has more than one sense. Yours is a list of adjectives and mine of nouns, higher up.


Found it!!


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## MR1492

This might be a bit late, anglo, but could you use "(un)common knowledge" to render the meaning of "luoghi comuni"?  It also has that "what everyone thinks they know but the truth is really something different" aspect in your translation.

Phil

P.S.  I also had to participate in this thread as it seems everyone who has an avatar picture of the "carry on" variety is here, too.


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## anglomania1

MR1492 said:


> This might be a bit late, anglo, but could you use "(un)common knowledge" to render the meaning of "luoghi comuni"?  It also has that "what everyone thinks they know but the truth is really something different" aspect in your translation.
> 
> Phil
> 
> P.S.  I also had to participate in this thread as it seems everyone who has an avatar picture of the "carry on" variety is here, too.


That's very nice, too, Phil!
Ps love the bit about the avatar!!
Thanks, Anglo


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## sorry66

MR1492 said:


> "(un)common knowledge"



I think this hits the nail on the head.


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## MR1492

@anglomania1,

Just as aside, I am reading the book "L'orda" by Gian Antonio Stella right now.  Right after seeing this thread, I went to lunch and began reading the book.  Ecco!!!!  Il titolo de Capitolo Tredici è "Non ne trovi uno onesto, L'export di criminali: *luoghi comuni* e realtà imbarazzanti."

Thanks to this thread, I was actually ahead of the game and didn't have to look that one up!  Thanks, anglo!

Phil


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## anglomania1

You're welcome Phil!!


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