# Spanish: El Cid



## Qcumber

The Spanish hero Rodrigo Díaz de Bivár (1043-1099)] is better known as El Cid Campeador shortened into El Cid.

It is said that the title Cid was given to him by Arabs in whose language the term is sayyid *سيد* “lord, sir” (Kazimirski 1:1162).

Span. El Cid is not a transcription of Arab. as-sayyid السيد “the lord”, but a transliteration as proved by the letter <L>.

I do not understand why the transliterator used the letter <C> for the Arabic letter <
*س*
>/s/ instead of the letter <S>. 
I have the impression he had the letter <ص> [emphatic /s/] in mind.
 
Could it be that the Arabic term was not sayyid سيد “lord, sir”, but Sayyaad صياد “lion” (Kaz. 1:1389), pronounced Siyyiid due to the deflection toward /i/ - 2imaala(t) امالة - and that a confusion ensued?


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## Outsider

I don't know all the details, but it seems that in medieval times the Arabic "s" usually transformed into "c/ç" in the Iberian languages.


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## hosec

Hola:

Como bien te comenta Outsider, en castellano medieval, era _Çid_ (no _Cid), _con una pronunciación más o menos similar a /ds/. Éste es el verso 1000 del Cantar:
_Todos son adobados, quando mio Çid esto hobo fablado._


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## Outsider

Perdón, pero yo no diría que no era Cid. Creo que la ortografía era variable. De todas maneras, la "c" antes de "i" se leía como una "ç".


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## Qcumber

Thanks a lot for your answers. Sorry. There was a mistake and a sentence was missing in my post. I have corrected it. I'll answer you tomorrow.


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## cherine

I'd like to add that the word sayyid سيد is pronounced in some colloquial forms as sid (with a longue "i") and it means master or lord. I think it makes more sense that the word's derived from sayyid/sid an not from Sayyad صياد .

As for the transliteration being al-cid instead of as-sid, I think it may be explained this way: the word sayyid/sid سيد was borrowed into Spanish without the article "al" ال , so it was the form sayyid/sid سيد that was borrowed and not as-sayyid/as-sid السيد . And then, the Spanish language added its own article which happens to be "al" as well 

Outsider, does the "ç" sound like an "s" or is it different?


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## Outsider

In medieval Iberian languages, "s(s)" and "c/ç" sounded different. Originally, "c/ç" was an affricate [ts] and in northern Iberia at least "s(s)" was probably apical, [s] (see this discussion for the meaning of this term). Later, "c/ç" was de-affricated to [s] in southern Iberia, but remained non-apical.

Well, I'm quoting from memory. It was more or less like this. Wikipedia's article on the _Ceceo_ talks about this.


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## Qcumber

cherine said:


> As for the transliteration being al-cid instead of as-sid, I think it may be explained this way: the word sayyid/sid سيد was borrowed into Spanish without the article "al" ال , so it was the form sayyid/sid سيد that was borrowed and not as-sayyid/as-sid السيد .


Yes, Cherine, yours is the best explanation for _El_ in _El Cid_.


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## Qcumber

Cherine, how was the letter Saad <*ص*> pronounced in Medieval Arabic?


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## Maroseika

I don't know Arabian, but my dictionary offers another explanation of this name:
Sid < sidi (my lord).
At least last -i, as far as I know, really means Semitic 1st Person Singular Possessive.


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## Qcumber

As regards old Spanish spelling, I have the facsimile of

Pedro DE SAN BUENAVENTURA (1613)
Vocabulario de la lengua tagala

and I can tell you that the C cedilla <ç> is almost systematically used before <e> and <i>, and before <a>, <u> and <o> when <c> is not sounded [k] - is sounded [s] ? 
e.g. 
ça: cabeça (p. 129)
çe: deçender (p. 217)
çi: disçipulo (p. 256), preçio (p. 493) 
ço : coraçon (p. 188)
çu: açucar (p. 23)

There are occurrences of <ce> and <ci>, but they seem to be due to negligence.
e.g. 
çe: haçer (p. 341), hacer (p. 451) in "no tienes ofrenda que hacerme?" = Don't you have a present for me?  
çi: deçir (p. 217), decir (p. 460) in "tengo vna palabra q~ decirte" = I have something to tell you.


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## Outsider

Be that as it may, the graphemes "ce", "çe" and "ci", "çi" were phonetically equivalent, as you example clearly shows. And since there was no standard orthography at the time of _El Cid_, it is not wrong to spell it with "c" rather than "ç".


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## Qcumber

Outsider said:


> Be that as it may, the graphemes "ce", "çe" and "ci", "çi" were phonetically equivalent, as you example clearly shows. And since there was no standard orthography at the time of _El Cid_, it is not wrong to spell it with "c" rather than "ç".


Here lies the problem. Why pick <c> / <ç>, and not <s> ?
They must have had some reason.


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## Whodunit

Maroseika said:


> I don't know Arabian, but my dictionary offers another explanation of this name:
> Sid < sidi (my lord).
> At least last -i, as far as I know, really means Semitic 1st Person Singular Possessive.


 
Yes, the -_i _(long) is the suffix for the first person singular possessive in both Arabic and Hebrew (I wouldn't be so sure about the other Semitic languages), so your dictionary agrees with the others' opinions: It's derived from the word _siid_ (dialect word of MSA _sayyid_), plus the Article _al-_



Qcumber said:


> Here lies the problem. Why pick <c> / <ç>, and not <s> ?
> They must have had some reason.


 
This is just a wild guess, most likely a wrong one: Could the _ç_ be a misreading of the actual _s_ in handwriting? If they wrote _sa_ instead of _ca_, they could have read it as a _c_ with a cedilla.


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## Outsider

No, Whodunit. Arabic "s" normally became "c/ç" (or "z") in Iberian languages. I have read this from Portuguese philologists, and there are plenty of other examples, such as Sp. _alcázar_ / Port. _alcácer_ from Arab. _al-qasr_.


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## Qcumber

Outsider said:


> No, Whodunit. Arabic "s" normally became "c/ç" (or "z") in Iberian languages. I have read this from Portuguese philologists, and there are plenty of other examples, such as Sp. _alcázar_ / Port. _alcácer_ from Arab. _al-qasr_.


As regards the treatment of the two Arabic /s/s in Spanish borrowings, I have detected three cases.

1) Arab. ص (emphatic /s/) > Medieval Span. <ç> [ts] >  Modern Span. <z> [θ].
e.g. al-qaSr القصر “the castle” > Alcaçar > Alcázar

2) Arab. س (non-emphatic /s/) > Span. <s> 
e.g. sulTaan سلطان “sultan” > sultán

3) Arab. س (non-emphatic /s/) > Medieval Span. <ç> [ts] >  Modern Span. <z> [θ].
e.g. Tassa(t) طسة “teacup” > taza
siid سيد“lord, sir” > El Çid > El Cid

The problem is how to account for (3).


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## Frank06

*Hi,
The topic of this thread is the name El Cid. Since it is a possible loan from Arabic, we can discuss the transcription of the Arabic letters, as long as they apply to the word/name El Cid.
Any other words (as e.g. sultan) can be discussed in another thread (which can be linked to this one).

Groetjes,

Frank
Moderator EHL*


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## Outsider

Qcumber said:


> Here lies the problem. Why pick <c> / <ç>, and not <s> ?
> They must have had some reason.


Let's continue that discussion elsewhere.


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## Qcumber

Outsider said:


> Let's continue that discussion elsewhere.


The advantage of this section (Etymology) is that we can mention several languages. I remember having some of my posts containing important comparative items deleted in the French-French folder because of these very items. It also happened to me for the same reason in another folder (I have forgotten which one). So I'd rather continue here. Now if forumites feel uncomfortable, let's close it. Thanks a lot for the informative answers.


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