# Why Le and La?



## mingus

Why are nouns either masculine or feminine in many European languages except English? Is it because we are a simple people!!!?


----------



## sophievm

Well, you could say "in most world's languages except English" in fact...
Some specialists say that English is a linguistically degenerated language : no gender, no (or almost) conjugation, no declinaisons, etc.
I don't know whether you are "simple" people but you definitely speak a language with a simple grammar... For us leaners, it's fine !


----------



## Outsider

mingus said:
			
		

> Why are nouns either masculine or feminine in many European languages except English? Is it because we are a simple people!!!?


English used to have genders, too -- three of them! See here and here.



> Three genders were strong enough, and only northern dialects could sometimes lose their distinction.* But in fact the loss of gender in Middle English happened due to the drop of case inflections, when words could no longer be distinguished by their endings.


----------



## DDT

sophievm said:
			
		

> Well, you could say "in most world's languages except English" in fact...
> Some specialists say that English is a linguistically degenerated language : no gender, no (or almost) conjugation, no declinaisons, etc.
> I don't know whether you are "simple" people but you definitely speak a language with a simple grammar... For us leaners, it's fine !



I wouldn't bet English grammar is so simple...try to check the use of subjunctive, for instance 

DDT


----------



## mingus

Thanks, OUTSIDER for the links. So my question would seem to be a question of linguistics, not just French or English. 

SO here is my new question.....Why in languages did one need to define a noun by its gender?


----------



## Outsider

The subjunctive is very simple in English. The complexity of English lies in things like its rich system of perfect and progressive tenses, and its phrasal verbs.


----------



## Outsider

mingus said:
			
		

> SO here is my new question.....Why in languages did one need to define a noun by its gender?


I don't know the answer to that question. I'm not even sure that linguists know the answer to it.
Certainly, there are many languages around the world without genders.


----------



## mingus

Like (Modern) English, for example. 
If it's an evolutionary thing, the gender of a noun will go the way of earlobes. Bred out of existence!


----------



## Outsider

mingus said:
			
		

> Like (Modern) English, for example.


Not quite. I think many languages in Southeast Asia and Africa never had any genders at all.


----------



## semiller

Yes, English grammar has its own box of troubles like any other language.  I think the complexity of English has more to do with his irregular past participles (i. e. drink, drank, drunk--ring, rang, rung, etc.) Wouldn't it be so much easier if all you had to do was add -ed to every verb?  On the other hand, how many people really speak English perfectly grammatically correct? Personally, I try to use English as grammatically correct as possible, but I know I make mistakes.  On the other hand, if someone uses English grammatically correct all the time (how many people do to be quite honest), they begin to sound quite awkard.  For example, we're not supposed to end an English sentence with a preposition are we?  "Where are you from?" is incorrect then.  "From where are you?" would be the grammatically correct sentence.  I'll never say that though.  It sounds like something an alien would say from a science fiction film.  Bref, what I'm trying to say is I used to beat myself up for making grammatical mistakes, but I've started to ease up realize that language rules change over time.  I can bet you that in the near future, "I'm doing good (as opposed to "well") will be deemed correct.  Qu'en pensez-vous?


----------



## Outsider

semiller said:
			
		

> Yes, English grammar has its own box of troubles like any other language.  I think the complexity of English has more to do with his irregular past participles (i. e. drink, drank, drunk--ring, rang, rung, etc.) Wouldn't it be so much easier if all you had to do was add -ed to every verb?


But compare that with the irregularities of verbs in other languages... 
When I was learning English, our teacher gave us a sheet of paper with three columns containing all the main irregular verb forms of English. One page was enough!



			
				semiller said:
			
		

> On the other hand, how many people really speak English perfectly grammatically correct? Personally, I try to use English as grammatically correct as possible, but I know I make mistakes.


That happens in any language.



			
				semiller said:
			
		

> For example, we're not supposed to end an English sentence with a preposition are we?  "Where are you from?" is incorrect then.  "From where are you?" would be the grammatically correct sentence.


That's a bogus rule copied from Latin grammar. It never really applied to English, which is why it feels so artificial.


----------



## jalkues75

English is such a hodge podge of other languages,  it becomes complex in its own right.   I believe  French,  German, Spanish are much easier to pronounce.   English poses certain problems with pronunciation that learners face,  e.g.   rough  sounds like ruff;  but  dough   has to sound  like  D+long O  and not duff  ;  but through sounds like   threw,   except   it has nothing to do with throwing;  and trough  becomes "trawf".   Confused?
I know you got my point.   Wasn't that fun?    

I think when you master certain combinations of letters in the other languages,  you're all set.   Your speaking will be like that of a pro.   

Does anyone share  my thoughts?


----------



## semiller

Outsider:
    I like your comments on the bogus rule of English prepositions.  I never knew about this.  It certainly helps and I feel better about my own English now!  Merci bien!


----------



## timpeac

English had gender before England was invaded by the Normans. After this, English was very out-of-fashion, the language of the peasants. Certainly it was almost never written down - this being reserved for Norman French or Latin.
So it had none of the usual pedants saying "no you can't say that" etc and so it simplified quickly without anyone really holding it back.

As to why some languages have gender, different languages have different mechanisms to convey meaning. There are many phrases in French where a difference in gender gives a different meaning. I can also think of several instances where I have got the gender wrong and therefore been misunderstood (eventhough there was no other word with the "other" gender).

This is partly because French lacks something which English uses freely - word stress. We use this as one mechanism to tell us when one word begins and another ends. French intonation is much smoother and so gender is one way of making the utterance clearer.

Spanish on the other hand uses gender in quite a productive way eg "la policía" "the police" "el policía" "the policeman".

There is usually very little in language which is truely redundant.


----------



## Outsider

semiller said:
			
		

> Merci bien!


De rien.


----------



## timpeac

Outsider said:
			
		

> But compare that with the irregularities of verbs in other languages...
> When I was learning English, our teacher gave us a sheet of paper with three columns containing all the main irregular verb forms of English. One page was enough!
> 
> 
> That happens in any language.
> 
> 
> That's a bogus rule copied from Latin grammar. It never really applied to English, which is why it feels so artificial.


 
That's a great link. I hate this sort of pedantry.

By the way that is not the only reason that "from where do you come?" sounds wrong. It actually _is _completely wrong. "From" plus "Where" becomes "whence" "whence do you come?".

If you hear someone say something like "from where do you come" then they are trying to be clever by not ending a sentence with a preposition but actually ending up making a bigger error!

However, "whence" is so archaic that it is like something Shakespeare would write, no one would ever say it today. Stick with "where are you from"!!


----------



## Shark

Outsider, your article is very very interesting. As a French-speaker, using a langage derivated from Latin, I tend to say sentences without the preposition at the end. It would come naturally to my mind to say "From where are you", because in French we'd say: "D'où viens-tu". But I learned at school that we HAD to say "Where are you from", to sound more English. And now I learn there's a rule about not ending sentences with a preposition?! I really didn't know this rule. In all the exemples from your articles, a French person with a basic knowledge of English would have say the first version, because it's closer to the French structure. So finally, it's not a mistake! But if I understand well, it sounds pedantic to do so. I'll keep forcing myself to end my sentences with a preposition then!


----------



## Outsider

Shark, that "rule" was invented by grammarians who wanted English to be like Latin, but it's not the natural way to speak. Your school taught you well.


----------



## Shark

Ok! And in an essay for the University, what would be correct to use?


----------



## bachgen_cymraeg

> But compare that with the irregularities of verbs in other languages...
> When I was learning English, our teacher gave us a sheet of paper with three columns containing all the main irregular verb forms of English. One page was enough!


 
I would disagree. There are hundreds of irregulars in English - when I was in Poland I sat through and English lesson and they had pages and pages of irregular verbs in their books!


----------



## Outsider

I did write the _main_ irregular verbs. 
In any case, being able to summarize the entire conjugation of a verb in three words makes it much simpler than most European languages, I think.


----------



## bachgen_cymraeg

Shark said:
			
		

> Ok! And in an essay for the University, what would be correct to use?


 
In a University essay you could use 'whence' if you wanted to sound very posh. The most common English phrase still used containing 'whence' is *I shall banish him from whence he came* so really it's not very common.

Also can I point out that where + from = whither not whence.

*Whither do you come?*  = From where do you come/Where do you come from

Also a very quick thing which I noticed in one of Shakespeare's plays the other day (I was studying Romeo and Juliet). Shakespeare uses the words 'hin' a lot to mean 'away' which I would imagine comes from the German? Also the use of words like 'thou hast' and 'thou dost' - does this second person present ending come from the German - du hast??


----------



## Shark

Thank you! I had never come across those words, "whence" and "whither". On en apprend tous les jours!


----------



## timpeac

bachgen_cymraeg said:
			
		

> In a University essay you could use 'whence' if you wanted to sound very posh. The most common English phrase still used containing 'whence' is *I shall banish him from whence he came* so really it's not very common.
> 
> Also can I point out that where + from = whither not whence.
> 
> *Whither do you come?* = From where do you come/Where do you come from
> 
> Also a very quick thing which I noticed in one of Shakespeare's plays the other day (I was studying Romeo and Juliet). Shakespeare uses the words 'hin' a lot to mean 'away' which I would imagine comes from the German? Also the use of words like 'thou hast' and 'thou dost' - does this second person present ending come from the German - du hast??


 
I'm sorry B-C but you're not right. "from where" = "whence" "to where" = "whither" viz

"whence do you come?" "whither do you go?"


----------



## Cath.S.

http://www.usingenglish.com/irregular-verb-list.html
Here, they give 280, which isn't a lot since their list also includes "to frostbite" which is just like "to bite"  and other compound verbs.
As a non-native speaker I remember finding them really easy to learn.


----------



## Nico5992

To me, the main difficulty in learning English language is its great flexibility, the almost infinite number of combinations of verbs and prepositions that may take so many different meanings.


----------



## timpeac

Nico5992 said:
			
		

> To me, the main difficulty in learning English language is its great flexibility, the almost infinite number of combinations of verbs and prepositions that may take so many different meanings.


That presumably means that it is harder to be "wrong" wrong though, doesn't it? You might not have achieved quite the nuance you were going for, but you haven't made a complete error for example.


----------



## OlivierG

About irregular verbs, I had been taught the preterit/past participle of "to learn" was "learnt". But I often see English speakers writing "learned". What is the right way to write it?


----------



## Apus

Aren't females names feminine in English ? _woman, bitch _ etc.
_cat _ (regardless of sex) and _ship _ are also feminine !
In colloquial speech I've heard she for _train._


----------



## Benjy

cat and ship are not feminine.. sometimes they are givien names and stuff and talked about as if they were female i'm sure theres some big word involving "anthrop.." to describe the phenomenom but that wouldn't stop from saying for example "the ship sank -> it sank" "the cat got ran over" -> "it was ran over"


----------



## Nico5992

Benjy said:
			
		

> i'm sure theres some big word involving "anthrop.." to describe the phenomenom


anthropomorphism


----------



## Apus

Benjy said:
			
		

> cat and ship are not feminine.. sometimes they are givien names and stuff and talked about as if they were female i'm sure theres some big word involving "anthrop.." to describe the phenomenom but that wouldn't stop from saying for example "the ship sank -> it sank" "the cat got  ran over" -> "it was  ran over"


 
Thanks for the lesson Benjy.
the cat got  run over; it was  run over


----------



## Benjy

Apus said:
			
		

> Thanks for the lesson Benjy.
> the cat got  run over; it was  run over


hhahahahaha.. ok. i'm a bad example, thanks for picking up on my mistakes.. i would NEVER do that in french... loling loffling lollerskates :/


----------



## Apus

Benjy said:
			
		

> cat and ship are not feminine.. sometimes they are givien names and stuff and talked about as if they were female i'm sure theres some big word involving "anthrop.." to describe the phenomenom but that wouldn't stop from saying for example "the ship sank -> it sank" "the cat got ran over" -> "it was ran over"


 
gender: "A set of classes that together include all nouns membership of a particular class... as, in English, the choice of... _she_ to replace _the_ _ship_."
_Webster's New Universal Unabridged Dictionary_


----------



## Gil

Benjy said:
			
		

> cat and ship are not feminine.. sometimes they are givien names and stuff and talked about as if they were female i'm sure theres some big word involving "anthrop.." to describe the phenomenom but that wouldn't stop from saying for example "the ship sank -> it sank" "the cat got ran over" -> "it was ran over"


I got the big word:  gynecomorphism
as in:
gyn•e•co•mor•phous
Pronunciation: ( jin"i-kō-môr'fus, gī"ni-, jī"ni-), [key] 
—adj. 
having the form, appearance, or attributes of a female.
Random House Unabridged Dictionary, Copyright © 1997, by Random House, Inc., on Infoplease
Thank you Benjy.  Your posts are a constant challenge.


----------



## Benjy

Apus said:
			
		

> gender: "A set of classes that together include all nouns membership of a particular class... as, in English, the choice of... _she_ to replace _the_ _ship_."
> _Webster's New Universal Unabridged Dictionary_


your point being...? like i said: she CAN replace the ship, that doesn't make ship feminine, english has no GRAMMATICAL gender. "English generally exhibits gender only in third-person singular pronouns (e.g., he, she, and it), with the masculine and feminine genders used only for persons or higher animals, sometimes objects in colloquial speech as in 'Isn't she a beauty?'" source wikipedia. gender is only attached to things actually displaying the property of gender in real life (ie natural/logical gender).


----------



## timpeac

Apus said:
			
		

> gender: "A set of classes that together include all nouns membership of a particular class... as, in English, the choice of... _she_ to replace _the_ _ship_."
> _Webster's New Universal Unabridged Dictionary_


 
But notice the word "choice". Most people wouldn't refer to a ship as "she". It is reminiscent of an old sea mariner or a pirate. It would only be used, I think, by people who work with boats.

As to animals, this is a choice too (and usually you would hear "it"). You may well hear "she" when the speaker wishes to insist on the fact that an animal is female, for example "the vixen feeds her young". But you could do this with any animal I think, not just ones that have a specific feminine form, eg "the sparrow lays her eggs". Also for a word like "cat" which is also the general form (as opposed to "tom" which is the male) you would never say "she" unless you knew for a fact it was a female.

I would think this is the same for French though isn't it - you would talk of "le chien, le chat" unless you wanted to stress the fact it was female by "la chienne or chatte".

Edit - you got there first Benjy!


----------



## Benjy

Gil said:
			
		

> I got the big word:  gynecomorphism
> as in:
> gyn•e•co•mor•phous
> Pronunciation: ( jin"i-kō-môr'fus, gī"ni-, jī"ni-), [key]
> —adj.
> having the form, appearance, or attributes of a female.
> Random House Unabridged Dictionary, Copyright © 1997, by Random House, Inc., on Infoplease
> Thank you Benjy.  Your posts are a constant challenge.


thanks for taking the time out to go look for such random words 
thanksto nico too.. thats was actually the word that i was thinking of 

edit.. but i do like you post timpeac, better thought out than mine


----------



## charlie2

I was once asked why a boat/ ship is a "she". I didn't know. The answer is she always looks for a boy (buoy). (The person who asked me this question didn't work on a boat. He owned one.)
As for the rule about never to end a sentence with a preposition, I learned/ learnt it as a kid. That is part of Queen's English, if you see what I mean. However, since Sir Winston Churchill reportedly said the following, I guess nobody would pay too much attention to it:
"This is the most ridiculous thing up with which I have to put!"
That is unnatural, isn't it?
Memorising the conjugations of the irregular verbs, it was fun to me. No, I didn't just get one page.


----------



## Apus

As to what concerns English grammar, your's is still a tender age, Benjy.

Note also:
"feminine - a gender that refers chiefly (but not exclusively) to females or to objects classified as female"
_www.thefreedictionary.com_


----------



## fetchezlavache

> cat and ship are not feminine..



i'm not sure benjy. i've always heard that ships were feminine in english, for instance if you name it in your sentence, 'take hms blabla on _her_ way to new-york harbour mister sulu'... or something. 




> From "The Oxford Companion to Ships and the Sea":
> : : : : : "SHIP, from the Old English 'scip,' the generic name for sea-going vessels, as opposed to boats, originally personified as masculine but by the 16th century almost universally expressed as feminine. . . ."






> We English speakers feel free to apply feminine pronouns to almost anything, even objects that are highly unlikely to possess the qualities of a woman. Sailors, of course, have led the way by insisting for centuries that a boat or a ship is a “she.” There is some news on that front.
> 
> Lloyd’s List, the daily journal of shipping news, has announced it will refer to vessels as “it” and no longer as “she.” This has caused considerable consternation in England, where the List is published and where traditions of the sea are taken quite seriously. The Royal Navy, in fact, thought it prudent to announce that its ships will remain feminine.
> 
> The List had used “she” and “her” for ships since 1734. When it tried to go to a neutral pronoun several years ago, the attempt was beaten back by irate readers. This time the editor, Julian Bray, is determined to make the banishment of feminine pronouns stick. He was quoted as saying of ships, “They are commodities, they are commercial assets. They are not things that have character—either male or female.”
> 
> Strong words, but I dare say Mr. Bray has a point, not just about commercial vessels, but even yachts. No one is quite sure why we call them “she.” John Rousmaniere writes in The Illustrated Dictionary of Boating Terms that the tradition derives from the ancient Egyptian belief that a boat represents a woman who brings the crew good luck. This seems at odds with the fact that English and American sailors long believed that a woman on board meant bad luck, though this didn’t stop them from using the womanly pronoun for their ships. In Salty Words, Robert Hendrickson suggests that giving ships feminine gender was copied by English speaking sailors from seafarers who spoke the romance languages, in all of which, he claims, “the word for ship has the feminine gender.” This is dubious. The fact is, the romance languages don’t agree on the gender of ships. (The French, contrary to their romantic nature, make it masculine.) On the other hand, the word for house is feminine in all of the romance languages. (She’s a three-bedroom colonial?)
> 
> Pardon me if I take all of this with a grain of salt. I’m convinced boats were made feminine simply because they were beautiful. “She” for ships dates to a time when ships were sailing vessels and even the crudest of them displayed qualities of feminine beauty when sails were set and drawing. It is relevant that the ideal of beauty for both women and sailboats has been described as a symphony of curves.
> 
> Still, the feminine pronoun should not be applied indiscriminately to watercraft, which is why Lloyd’s List is on the right course. We’ve been grappling with this for years at SAILING. In every issue you will find sailboats referred to as “she” and “it.” Before the fiberglass revolution, when every boat was a custom-built individual, it was probably easier to use “she.” Since they have been cloned like, as an unkind wag once said, so many Chlorox bottles, it can be awkward to assign a gender. Our rule of thumb is to refer to a boat as “it” before it acquires an owner and a name. A boat displayed at a show or an unsold model provided for a boat test is an “it.” On the other hand, when one of the clones is owned and named and probably loved and featured in, say, a story about cruising in Maine, she’s a “she.”
> 
> Then there’s the matter of a boat’s character. No matter what the Royal Navy says, calling an aircraft carrier “she” is stretching the language pretty far to preserve a tradition. I’m afraid multihulls are not good candidates for feminine pronouns either. They have a certain functional beauty, but let’s face it, instead of symphonies of curves, most of them are cacophonies of angles. I’m sorry, but a dreadnought like the 125-foot catamaran PlayStation can’t possibly have a feminine side.


----------



## charlie2

Apus said:
			
		

> As to what concerns English grammar, your's is still a tender age, Benjy.


I believe "your's" should read "yours".


----------



## fetchezlavache

Apus said:
			
		

> As to what concerns English grammar, *yours * is still a tender age, Benjy.



sorry apus.


----------



## timpeac

Apus said:
			
		

> As to what concerns English grammar, your's is still a tender age, Benjy.


 
I think this is the most condescending comment I have seen on WordReference. People in glass houses...

Edit - rereading the sentence it is even more wrong than people have already pointed out - you can't say "as to what concerns English grammar" you say "As far as English grammar is concerned" or "as to what constitutes English grammar"


----------



## Benjy

Apus said:
			
		

> As to what concerns English grammar, your's is still a tender age, Benjy.
> 
> Note also:
> "feminine - a gender that refers chiefly (but not exclusively) to females or to objects classified as female"
> _www.thefreedictionary.com_



et en quoi ca montre que "a ship" est feminin? t'aurais pu au moins allé chercher un article pertinent à la disscussion comme celui de flv.

pourquoi tu cours encore aprés ces pauvres mouches? j'ai jamais dit qu'on pourrais pas parlait d'un "ship" comme si c'était un objet feminin, ca se fait encore, n'empeche qu'on ne dirait pas de nos jours "she sank" sauf si on voulait faire "language marin/pirate". va chercher des sites sur "the gender shift" si tu en veux plus d'information moi j'en dirais plus puisque ce thread se transforme carrément en dialogue de sourds.    

"yours is still a tender age.." si c'est la ton seul argument franchement t'es de mauvaise foi. tu as le temoignage de deux anglophones et tu cherches quand même à prouver que tu as raison sur moi, le petit gamin =[.. je comprends pas.


----------



## timpeac

fetchezlavache said:
			
		

> i'm not sure benjy. i've always heard that ships were feminine in english, for instance if you name it in your sentence, 'take hms blabla on _her_ way to new-york harbour mister sulu'... or something.


 
You do hear it Fetchez but not in normal conversation - eg I was on the ship and it was painted red. Was it?

Where you do see it is by people involved to some extent in boating, or in journalism. If a journalist was saying something like "HMS Whatever is pulling into New York harbour now, and here she is!" then I would almost expect the journalist to say "her" in this sort of context. (giving a bit of colour to the occasion).

I think people would think you were a bit pretentious though if you said in your daily life something like "Can you tell me where the ship is, I can't see her anywhere" etc. 

I hope you can see the difference, I'm not sure I've explained it that well!


----------



## fetchezlavache

> I think people would think you were a bit pretentious though if you said in your daily life something like "Can you tell me where the ship is, I can't see her anywhere" etc


   oh ye of little faith hehehe tim, *rofl !!! * i must have expressed myself poorly. i'm sure that _i_ would say 'it' of course, but i was just pointing out how we french were taught, number one, and how the navy still says, apparently, in special occasions, number two.

as for apus' remark, i agree with what you said, but no more comment is needed.

nathalie, signing off, i have to rush to hollywood, johnny depp is expecting me for 'pirates of the caribbean 2'... _Yo ho ho and a bottle of rum !!! _


----------



## timpeac

fetchezlavache said:
			
		

> oh ye of little faith hehehe tim, *rofl !!! *i must have expressed myself poorly. i'm sure that _i_ would say 'it' of course, but i was just pointing out how we french were taught, number one, and how the navy still says, apparently, in special occasions, number two.
> 
> as for apus' remark, i agree with what you said, but no more comment is needed.
> 
> nathalie, signing off, i have to rush to hollywood, johnny depp is expecting me for 'pirates of the caribbean 2'... _Yo ho ho and a bottle of rum !!! _


 
Believe me, Fetchez, I have a whole bundle of faith in your excellent English. Drink a bottle for me while you're there or I'll make you walk the plank.


----------



## Apus

fetchezlavache said:
			
		

> sorry apus.


 
 Right Charlie and fetchezlavache. I slipped !!


----------



## Apus

Benjy said:
			
		

> "yours is still a tender age.." si c'est la ton seul argument franchement t'es de mauvaise foi. tu as le temoignage de deux anglophones et tu cherches quand même à prouver que tu as raison sur moi, le petit gamin =[.. je comprends pas.


 
Don't be so touchy, Benjy! I didn't mean any harm, and didn't say you're wrong and I'm right. Just tried to show what English books and dictionaries taught me.


----------



## timpeac

Apus said:
			
		

> Don't be so touchy, Benjy! I didn't mean any harm, and didn't say you're wrong and I'm right. Just tried to show what English books and dictionaries taught me.


 
I think Benjy's reply was positively restrained. If I were you I would put more faith in what native speakers tell you now than in books you have read in the past.


----------



## stevenality

Hi,

I have joined this discussion a little late. I would like to share an experience I had working with people who spoke a dialect of English. I think (hopefully not in a vain way) that it might interest the sort of people who read this forum.

It was a hard time convincing the children that they needed to code shift from dialect to standard English when dealing with "outsiders," I suppose their dialect was so logical they had difficulty grasping that my eccentric English was actually more widely used. Sometimes the poor kids' eyes just glazed over with disbelief.

For example - in their dialect:

I go toilet. (present tense)
I bin go toilet. (past)
What you bin go toilet? (question)

No need to change word order and no need to worry about strong vs weak verbs, participles and that sort of thing.

The poor things refused to accept that the past tense of go was went and yet when asking about a past experience you would usually ask Did you go...
and not Did you went...

I guess complexity is always in the eye of the beholder!


----------



## timpeac

stevenality said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> I have joined this discussion a little late. I would like to share an experience I had working with people who spoke a dialect of English. I think (hopefully not in a vain way) that it might interest the sort of people who read this forum.
> 
> It was a hard time convincing the children that they needed to code shift from dialect to standard English when dealing with "outsiders," I suppose their dialect was so logical they had difficulty grasping that my eccentric English was actually more widely used. Sometimes the poor kids' eyes just glazed over with disbelief.
> 
> For example - in their dialect:
> 
> I go toilet. (present tense)
> I bin go toilet. (past)
> What you bin go toilet? (question)
> 
> No need to change word order and no need to worry about strong vs weak verbs, participles and that sort of thing.
> 
> The poor things refused to accept that the past tense of go was went and yet when asking about a past experience you would usually ask Did you go...
> and not Did you went...
> 
> I guess complexity is always in the eye of the beholder!


 
That's a great story Stevanality. You must join discussions late more often!


----------



## bachgen_cymraeg

Apus said:
			
		

> Aren't females names feminine in English ? _woman, bitch _etc.
> _cat _(regardless of sex) and _ship _are also feminine !
> In colloquial speech I've heard she for _train._


 
This isn't colloquial speech. Many objects which are the result of very hard work or are due respect are referred to as feminine. The best example is:

'This ship is amazing!' - 'Yes she took a very long time to build!'

However this usage can sound archaic!


----------



## Outsider

OlivierG said:
			
		

> About irregular verbs, I had been taught the preterit/past participle of "to learn" was "learnt". But I often see English speakers writing "learned". What is the right way to write it?


Both are correct. "Learnt" is the older form, and it's more typical of British English.


----------



## Outsider

timpeac said:
			
		

> Nico5992 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To me, the main difficulty in learning English language is its great flexibility, the almost infinite number of combinations of verbs and prepositions that may take so many different meanings.
> 
> 
> 
> That presumably means that it is harder to be "wrong" wrong though, doesn't it? You might not have achieved quite the nuance you were going for, but you haven't made a complete error for example.
Click to expand...

Well, I could say the same about verb endings in Romance language... If you say "j'a parlé avec elle" instead of "j'ai parlé avec elle", you will probably be understood, even though you haven't achieved the nuance you were going for.


----------



## Outsider

Apus said:
			
		

> Aren't females names feminine in English ? _woman, bitch _ etc.
> _cat _ (regardless of sex) and _ship _ are also feminine !
> In colloquial speech I've heard she for _train._


Words are grammatically feminine when they come with feminine articles, adjectives and pronouns. But in modern English articles and adjectives do not change with gender, and that's why it's usually said that English has no genders.

There is still a remnant of gender, though, in the personal pronouns, _he, she, it_.

The use of "she" for boats is also a trace of gender, but this is exceptional. It's fair to say that gender has become almost extinct in English.


----------



## Outsider

stevenality said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> I have joined this discussion a little late. I would like to share an experience I had working with people who spoke a dialect of English. I think (hopefully not in a vain way) that it might interest the sort of people who read this forum.
> 
> It was a hard time convincing the children that they needed to code shift from dialect to standard English when dealing with "outsiders," I suppose their dialect was so logical they had difficulty grasping that my eccentric English was actually more widely used. Sometimes the poor kids' eyes just glazed over with disbelief.
> 
> For example - in their dialect:
> 
> I go toilet. (present tense)
> I bin go toilet. (past)
> What you bin go toilet? (question)


That looks like a creole language, actually... Interesting.


----------



## timpeac

Outsider said:
			
		

> Well, I could say the same about verb endings in Romance language... If you say "j'a parlé avec elle" instead of "j'ai parlé avec elle", you will probably be understood, even though you haven't achieved the nuance you were going for.


 
No - J'a parlé is just wrong, it's not an acceptable variation on J'ai parlé just with a difference of nuance.

A difference of nuance would be, in English, the difference between "brotherhood" and "fraternity". Both mean ostensibly the same thing, but the nuance is different. You wouldn't say "fraternity of man" or "a college brotherhood club".

I don't think I could explain why the two words are different though.


----------



## Outsider

But you were talking about prepositions before, weren't you?...


----------



## timpeac

Don't remember to be honest - even if it was I don't see how your example of an incorrect verb form comapred to a correct one, viz j'a or j'ai fits in.


----------



## Benjy

hola!

so i know that said i wouldn't post here again, but being as this thread won't lay down and die and that the conversation left the original subject behind somewhere in the distance quite a while back i'm going to close it. if anyone wishes to see a particular element of this thread discussed elsewhere (this new little debate on how hard it is to be wrong in english for example) feel free to send me message and i'll be happy to split off the relevant posts or you can just start a new thread yourself.

yours cordially

ben


----------

