# numpty



## ewie

One hears this word used quite a lot in BE (though not at WRF ~ *THIS* [post #9] was the only usage I could find, where it's spelt _numptie_).
The OED defines it simply as _stupid or foolish person, idiot_. Earliest written citation 1988; originally Scottish; possibly a combination of _numbskull_ and _Humpty-Dumpty_.
Anyway, my question is: how far has this word reached in its brief life? Also: is a _numpty_ a particular *type* of idiot to you?


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## cropje_jnr

ewie said:


> One hears this word used quite a lot in BE (though not at WRF ~ *THIS* was the only usage I could find, where it's spelt _numptie_).
> The OED defines it simply as _stupid or foolish person, idiot_. Earliest written citation 1988; originally Scottish; possibly a combination of _numbskull_ and _Humpty-Dumpty_.
> Anyway, my question is: how far has this word reached in its brief life? Also: is a _numpty_ a particular *type* of idiot to you?


 
Hi ewie,

Report from Down Under, for what it's worth: I have never heard 'numpty' said in Australia.


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## dg_spain

Sorry, but to my 45-year-old US English ears this is unknown!


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## Lexiphile

Hi Ewie,
English is said to be a living language, and many words, whatever their original source, carry meanings applied by someone, somewhere, and accepted by others.

The Scottish origin of this otherwise unknown word should not inhibit us in attaching a suitable meaning to it.  Run it up the flagpole and see if anybody salutes.  I suggest, as a plausible definition:

Numpty:  Noun.  A person who creates flippant and unhelpful posts in forums.  Similar to a _twit_ or _burk_ (q.v.) but not quite as offensive.

ps.  Where on earth did you find this one?


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## panjandrum

It'll be no surprise to ewie that numpty is familiar in this part of the world.

Numpty has a particular sense of professional incompetence, or perhaps I should describe it as a distinct lack of flair. If you have a particularly difficult task to perform that requires exercise of unusual skills, you don't want a numpty, but you could probably tolerate several of them on the more mundane activities.


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## Nunty

I wonder if it is anything like the AE "bozo", as in "Who's the bozo who designed this database?"

EDIT: Or just plain "clown".


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## Lexiphile

panjandrum said:


> Numpty has a particular sense of professional incompetence, or perhaps I should describe it as a distinct lack of flair. If you have a particularly difficult task to perform that requires exercise of unusual skills, you don't want a numpty, but you could probably tolerate several of them on the more mundane activities.


 
So someone had thought of my idea already!


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## Thomas Tompion

The quotes in the Urban Dictionary give a bit of an idea of how it's used:

"No. That wisnae wit she meant, ya big numpty!"

"That numpty's driving with no lights on!"


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## panjandrum

I should add context - I have most often heard this term used in a technological context.  IT professionals are notoriously scornful of those in their profession whose brains don't directly interface with the machine - of numpties.


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## ewie

Oh dear, looks like it hasn't spread far at all then.



Lexiphile said:


> Numpty: Noun. A person who creates flippant and unhelpful posts in forums. Similar to a _twit_ or _burk_ (q.v.) but not quite as offensive.
> 
> ps. Where on earth did you find this one?


That's strange, Lex ~ I always thought the definition of _burk_ was 'person who has difficulty spelling _berk_' (Luckily I know that as a good Berkshireman your _berk_ is far worse than your bite).
Where on earth? I have the great fortune to listen to Terry Wogan on BBC Radio 2 every morning that I can't avoid it: he uses it liberally to describe his 'team' and others.
But the 'meaning' I'm most familiar with is more like _complete and utter blithering_ _idiot_ than _technological no-hoper_.


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## cuchuflete

Numpty?  Sorry, ewie, it's spread hasn't yet reached the rocky shores of Maine.
We do sometimes describe a person with numptial  characteristics as _a real numb-nuts.
_That translates into standard AE as _thoroughly dense, how on earth does he manage to
cross the street without being French kissed by a bus?_


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## ewie

Three *very literal* LOLs, Cuchu ~ thanks


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## bibliolept

Cuchu, be careful. You may have inadvertently created the seed for a folk etymology of the word "numb-nuts."


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## Loob

Three more very literal LOLs from me, cuchu



ewie said:


> Anyway, my question is: how far has this word reached in its brief life? Also: is a _numpty_ a particular *type* of idiot to you?


 
Well, it's certainly reached Gloucestershire - or at least it's reached _me_. And quite a long time ago, I think.

MrL, my usual source of advice on things Scottish, denies using the word, so I didn't hear it from him.

Maybe from Billy Connolly? Or maybe the TV series Rab C Nesbitt, which I see was the source of the first OED citation? (I was a _huge_ fan, despite having to ask MrL for translations several times an episode.)

I have the impression it's quite often used affectionately, as in "did you forget to pack underwear again, you big numpty?"


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## out2lnch

I've heard this word before, growing up in Toronto, but not in years. I was in elementary school I believe, and it was just used as a synonym for moron or idiot. I honestly had no idea that it was an actual, non-slang, word. I'll be sure to use it from now on.


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## gasman

I remember "numpty", in use in Scotland, as meaning a blockhead, or fool.


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## Cathy Rose

I have never heard of the word, but you can be certain that I shall raise the banner and start the band to proclaim it throughout the land.  It's a thoroughly delightful word and so _apropos_ for the many situations in which I find myself at a loss for a kinder, gentler word than "idiot" or "dumbass." It's a sweet word, but right on the money.  So, my little numpties, wherever you are, look out!


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## ewie

Loob said:


> maybe the TV series Rab C Nesbitt


Oh yes, I can certainly hear Rab C.Nesbitt saying it in my mind's ear.



out2lnch said:


> I've heard this word before, growing up in Toronto, but not in years. I was in elementary school I believe, and it was just used as a synonym for moron or idiot. I honestly had no idea that it was an actual, non-slang, word. I'll be sure to use it from now on.


You surprise me, Out2 ~ might I delicately* ask how long ago it was that you were growing up in Toronto?  I don't suppose it's beyond the bounds of possibility that the OED might be wrong* and that it might be a Canadian import*.

_*There's a first time for everything_



Cathy Rose said:


> So, my little numpties, wherever you are, look out!


I'm (somewhat pathetically) pleased you like it so much, Out2 and CathyR


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## out2lnch

Well, if it was when I think it was, then it was in the mid nineties (late elementary, early highschool time). I heard it from another kid I'm sure. I'm not sure where he got it from though. I doubt it's a Canadian export, since I'm not sure if anyone else is familiar with it. Maybe I'll ask around...


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## timpeac

It's reached the south coast of England too, and not uncommon. Sounds like it's a Brit-only thing.


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## Polixenes

I only heard numpty used once in my life (South of England background, now overseas), and that was from a Glaswegian. He had quite a few turns of phrase that would make me smile, most of which aren't printable!


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## ruffy

The Collins Scots Dictionary has the following entry:



> *Numpty* In the Glasgow area a numpty is a stupid person: _That's no the way to do it, ya numpty!_


 
From personal experience, it's a word that has been used in the Lothians for many a year! I distinctly remember it having playground currency when I was in primary school in the early 80s. As to its Etymology the OED does seem to be uncertain as to its origins, with the earliest written evidence being:


> *1988* M. MUNRO _Patter: another Blast_ 50 "How is it I get all the numpties in my class?"


 
Might have a hunt through my Scots novels tonight for any more evidence of it.

It's definitely a good word!


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## panjandrum

Loob said:


> [...]
> I have the impression it's quite often used affectionately, as in "did you forget to pack underwear again, you big numpty?"


I'm fairly sure that the correct emphatic modifier for numpty is great, not big.
... did you forget to pack underwear again, you great numpty?

Apropos of which, don't you think such repetitious forgetfulness has to be other than inadvertent?


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## out2lnch

Since the word seems unknown to the North Americans (except me) on this forum, I decided to ask a friend if he'd ever heard the word. As it turns out, the guys he knew in the Canadian navy when he was enlisted anyway used it regularly as a substitute for idiot. He was surprised it is a real word as I was.


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## timpeac

Polixenes said:


> I only heard numpty used once in my life (South of England background, now overseas), and that was from a Glaswegian. He had quite a few turns of phrase that would make me smile, most of which aren't printable!


Or probably intelligible. Joking!

I must say that I wasn't aware before this thread of the Scottish origin of this word - I've heard it often for a long time in the south of England. I probably would have guessed it was British rather than American, but I didn't realise it was regional, and I think that now, within the British Isles at least, it probably isn't.


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## Paulfromitaly

panjandrum said:


> Numpty has a particular sense of professional incompetence, or perhaps I should describe it as a distinct lack of flair. If you have a particularly difficult task to perform that requires exercise of unusual skills, you don't want a numpty, but you could probably tolerate several of them on the more mundane activities.



Since I myself got called numpty a few times by my mates up in the Lothians due to my absolute lack of skills in playing rugby, I believe this is the meaning they wanted to convey.
(The buggers also bought me a T-shirt with this on it: "Thae numpties couldnae organise a piss up in a brewery" )


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## rainbow84uk

'Numpty' is alive and well in Lancashire - or in my little corner of it at least - and what a lovely word it is!

I'd agree that 'you great numpty' is the most common emphatic form in direct speech,
while 'a right numpty' is often used to describe a third person.

Lauren x


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## ewie

rainbow84uk said:


> 'Numpty' is alive and well in Lancashire - or in my little corner of it at least


_O if only I could find the Lancashire Barcelona!_
Oops, forgot to mention _numpty_. I can't say it's a word I particularly _like_ ~ I think on the whole I'd rather have Cuchu's _numb-nuts _[].
My mother's a Glaswegian and it's definitely _not_ in her vocabulary (mind you, she is about 189 years old).


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## katie_here

I have a ex-Royal navy friend and this is what he tells me. 

Numpty is forces speak for prat, idiot, dullard, pillock etc!!!


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## Paulfromitaly

ewie said:


> My mother's a Glaswegian and it's definitely _not_ in her vocabulary (mind you, she is about 189 years old).


Really??
I've got a mate in Dumfries and I've heard her using "numpty" a couple of times.
It'd be weird if that word were used in Lothians and Dumfries, but not in Glasgow..
I'm sure your mother is too much of a nice lady to use it


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## ewie

Paulfromitaly said:


> I'm sure your mother is too much of a nice lady to use it


My mum still can't quite bring herself to say _bum_, Paul ~ though she _is_ having lessons


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## Moglet

I was introduced to the term 'numpty' by a Scot. I think it's a _great_ word: makes a refreshing change from 'eejit"!


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## gaer

This is the most entertaining thread I've read in days, or maybe weeks!

Although I've never heard the word, it sounds like something Craig Ferguson would say but might avoid because he's in front of an American audience. 

It almost sounds like a combination of clutz and blockhead, but it rolls of the tongue SO much better!


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## bibliolept

"Numpty" sounds so affable to me. It doesn't sound like an insult but more like a term of endearment. (That may be just my American lack of a sense for subtlety.)


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## ewie

Yes, I agree with that, Biblio: it's a very _friendly-sounding_ way of calling someone a plonker.


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## L'irlandais

ewie said:


> Yes, I agree with that, Biblio: it's a very _friendly-sounding_ way of calling someone a plonker.


Hullo guys 'n gals,
My "Concise Oxford" dico gives the origin of the word as "Scottish informal : from the obsolite_ numps_ meaning _'a stupid person'_.
Though personally I've heard it used to good effect by a Yorkshire lass in the past.


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## Will5

I often hear numpty. I usually hear it meaning stupid sometimes in a friendly way sometime not so.


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## Will5

ewie said:


> Yes, I agree with that, Biblio: it's a very _friendly-sounding_ way of calling someone a plonker.


I disagree, yes most of the time it is informal and friendly but it can often be used quite aggresivly if one wanted. Trust me my boss tells me often.


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## timpeac

It seems to me that, in terms of English speakers from Britain, there are two main classes developing - one who recognises the word but views it as a great Scottish term and the second who may or may not be aware of the geographical origins but views it as an acceptable slang term along with any other. I know that I am part of the second group - most terms start off in one geographical place or another, but this term is definitely part of my lexical inventory and has been for a long time.


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## L'irlandais

Hi timpeac,
I agree that the word has now been taken up in generally usage.  However the origins of any word can sometimes shed a bit of light on the meaning.
For example this on-line reference to _numps_ lends a bit of credence to the idea that _numpty _might be an abbreviation of _"Numbskull"._

Like l'écossaise says in that fore-mentioned thread


Ecossaise said:


> ...Etymology is a fascinating topic in its own right.


Bye, cgm


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## Loob

On the origin front: when I did a _google books_ search, the earliest hits - 19th century, as I recall -  all showed _numpty_ as the first part of "Numpty Dumpty".  (Sadly, I couldn't open any of them.) 

The OED's idea, as mentioned in post 1, seems to be the best suggestion


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## bibliolept

L'irlandais said:


> For example this on-line reference to _numps_ lends a bit of credence to the idea that _numpty _might be an abbreviation of _"Numbskull"._



Numskull does date back to the early 18th century. And, as was noted in another thread, BE speakers tend to truncate words as they create variants.


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## timpeac

L'irlandais said:


> Hi timpeac,
> I agree that the word has now been taken up in generally usage. However the origins of any word can sometimes shed a bit of light on the meaning.


Don't deny it. My point was really to underline that for a lot of speakers this is a word they use day-to-day and not a region specific usage (unlike "wee" meaning "small" or "bairn" for example, where many recognise it but it's day to day usage is geographically limited.


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## katie_here

It's not a word I hear every day.  Maybe muppet, but not numpty.  Idiot would  be the one mostly used.


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