# それまでがそれまで



## Yoshie0

I'm a bit confused about the part in bold in the following sentence. Does by this phrase the author means something like "nobody forgot what she has done before"/"what was done before is still there" or "and that was all she done"?

清水さんは、迷惑をかけた全ての生徒に謝ったのだが、何しろそれまでがそれまでだ。寛容に許してくれるものなど、ほとんどいなかった。


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## SoLaTiDoberman

それまでがそれまでだ、 is a set phrase.
It means something like:
それまで清水さんがいつもしてきたことは何なのかを考えてみると・確認してみると、それは、清水さんがしてきた（いつも、皆に迷惑をかける）ことでありますから、
"When we thought about what she had done, we couldn't help thinking about what she had done, (which was, of course, or without no doubt, bad behaviors, or bothering others all the time.)"

Because what she had done was always very bad, nobody would dare to forgive her.


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## spu001

Hi Yoshie,

As SoLaTiDoberman said, that's an expression -- "xがxだ".

I think your guess is that "それまで" refers to the fact that she made trouble. But, in reality, it means that she's the black sheep of the school: she might have done it for a long time or that may not be the first time -- they're all fed up, so, they won't buy her apology. Thus, this phrase is used -- because she's the girl who cried wolf.
People may or may not remember when the last time was or what she did last time.

Therefore, それまで here means "her reputation," as SLTD used the word ”行い,” it's about her 行い.
And "それまでの行い" is a very handy expression to point out bad things someone has done, without mentioning particular incidents and using intense words.
Note that それまでの行い, however, doesn't automatically imply that it was "bad," but is also used like this: それまで(これまで)の行いが良かったから幸せな結婚ができた. -- the point being that それまで refers to the past: again, not a particular case.
Plus, both of which aren't necessarily serious. You can also use them offhandedly.

Few examples of xがxだ:
状況が状況だ（あきらめるしかない）、結果が結果だ（次のステップには進めない）、時代が時代なら（切腹ものだ）
嫁が嫁だけに（一筋縄では説得できない）、健康状態が健康状態だから（飛行機に乗るときは気をつけよう）、車が車だ（これ以上スピードがでるわけない）。
This expression "xがxだ," by and large, means "Let's face it." In the OP, "reputation is reputation."

I hope this helps
Spu


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## Yoshie0

I understand now thanks everyone for help!


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## karlalou

Yoshie0 said:


> それまでがそれまでだ。


It's using 'それまで'(=until then) as a noun.
The second 'それまで' is pointing out the fact without repeating describing it again. We would also say 何しろそれまでがあれだ, それまでがあれだからね, それまでがあれだものね, それまでがそれだけど, etc. Something like だから仕方がない / だから無理もない / だから当然だ is implied after that.


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## Yoshie0

karlalou said:


> The second 'それまで' is pointing out the fact without repeating describing it again.



I don't think I understand this part, could you please elaborate?


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## karlalou

> > The second 'それまで' is pointing out the fact without repeating describing it again.
> I don't think I understand this part, could you please elaborate?


Well… the first 'それまで'(the subject part) simply means that _until the change_[_until that happened_], and the second 'それまで'(the complement part) is pointing out how that was. It's saying that it was like what we know[like we talked earlier].

それまでが(Until then was) それまでだ(like that until that happened)。だから仕方ない(So it's no wonder/it can't be helped)。


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## SoLaTiDoberman

I (or we) are trying to explain the difference between the first それまで and the second それまで.
I'll try another translation.


それまでがそれまでだ。
What she has done is such things (that she has done as you know). 
What she has done is such things that she has done, which she deserves never forgiven.


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## spu001

Hi guys,

While Karlalou raised a problem for the structure of that expression, I don't think the two "それまで" in it are each individually assigned to refer to separate items.
It is, actually, just a rhetorical figure of speech --to emphasize the nature of what it is-- in other words, a throwaway use of tautology. 
Like these English expressions:_ it is what it is_,_ boys will be boys_, etc.
Just for the record, それ refers to her apology and それまで points to "before それ," therefore, "The girl will be the girl, they won't buy that one."

Hope that helps,
Spu


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## frequency

spu001 said:


> I don't think the two "それまで" in it are each individually assigned to refer to separate items.
> Just for the record, それ refers to her apology and _それまで points to "before それ_," therefore, "The girl will be the girl, they won't buy that one."


 
Yup I agree. Great.

Yoshie, Shimizu san had been problematic, acting wrongly. So the first それまで is suggesting the period she'd been acting so, as spu says.

The second それまで？ Well, this is difficult and not good one lol. I feel that this is kind of omission, but showing the fact she'd been wrong. See the later sentence 寛容に許してくれるものなど、ほとんどいなかった: this says how she'd been wrong, because almost no one forgave her!
Don't forget the things she did until she apologized had been disaster.


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## karlalou

karlalou said:


> Well… the first 'それまで'(the subject part) simply means that _until the change_[_until that happened_], and the second 'それまで'(the complement part) is pointing out how that was. It's saying that it was like what we know[like we talked earlier].
> 
> それまでが(Until then was) それまでだ(like that until that happened)。だから仕方ない(So it's no wonder/it can't be helped)。



This is simply logical analysis of the sentence.
The first それまで is the subject of the sentence, therefore it doesn't say anything more than what it literary means, which is 'until the incident'. The second それまで is the complement of the subject that naturally this is explaining the subject. To think it's pointing out how that was or it doesn't mean anything is just matter of opinion. No reason to be denied.


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## spu001

Hello,



> The first それまで is the subject of the sentence, therefore it doesn't say anything more than what it literary means


Indeed, that's all we HAVE TO know to figure out this expression. Anything else is optional, not to mention anybody's guess.



> The second それまで is the complement of the subject[...]


Yup, this might help people who don't know what the subject and complement of a sentence are.



> [...]that naturally this is explaining the subject.


I'm afraid it's nowhere near as clear as what one calls "explanation," the point being that the speaker didn't drone on, even though he or she could have gone so far as to do that, like それまでがよくなかった(to handle without gloves.)
And, since it's more of a euphemism (if you ask,) you must puzzle over it if someone says this to you -- "You said I was wrong, that's duly noted but WHY in the world are you still thinking that is the case?" or blah blah blah.



> To think it's pointing out how that was or it doesn't mean anything is just matter of opinion.


The two それまで both don't point out what her shenanigans were, again, the first one just refers to the fact that she's done shenanigans -- even if we know her, we have to guess when we are told that それまでがそれまでだ, and then we agree with that, as I wrote above, even if we don't quite remember what she did and when that was, as we do remember that she always disappoints us, indeed -- that's her reputation.
We can't read into it too much, so, if we assume that it is "a matter of opinion" -- going against the grain -- then yours too. This means that there's no need to split hairs as we're talking about this topic as Japanese-language learners and you are in our shoes shedding light on it Your efforts are appreciated but we shouldn't quibble about something like six of one half a dozen of the other



			
				frequency said:
			
		

> Well, this is difficult and not good one lol. I feel that this is kind of omission, but showing the fact she'd been wrong. See the later sentence 寛容に許してくれるものなど、ほとんどいなかった: this says how she'd been wrong, because almost no one forgave her!


I couldn't agree with this more. Indeed, the second sentence implies HOW terrible the incidents were. And yup, this second それまで is not so good -- this use of tautology often sounds pathetic because it is used when one is dying to convince someone but is at loss of reasonable words, like ダメなものはダメ (no means no!) or, as I wrote in the previous comment, wants to put it mildly.

To Yoshie and other readers,
We should understand meanings and usages of such expressions most of all, whether you should read into it or not is all up to you, because we've got to use this kind of expressions when exchanging banter with someone -- literally shoot from the hip -- therefore, to analyse them is, if you like, sugar on the icing on the cake.

Hope that helps
Spu


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## karlalou

> > [...]that naturally this is explaining the subject.
> I'm afraid it's nowhere near as clear as what one calls "explanation," the point being that the speaker didn't drone on, …


If you are agreeing this second それまで is complement, we are talking about the international usage of the term 'complement' and the role of  'complement' is to explain the subject like 'rich' in "He is rich". I just meant this by saying 'that naturally this is explaining the subject'.



> if we assume that it is "a matter of opinion" -- going against the grain -- then yours too.


I didn't make any statement to say something to deny yours, while you've said:


> While Karlalou raised a problem for the structure of that expression, I don't think the two "それまで" in it are each individually assigned to refer to separate items.


OK. You were saying "I don't think", I guess you meant this was your opinion.
But here I came back to state that I still can't agree with your opinion.

It's not always それまでがそれまでだ.
Like I've already said we also say それまでがあれだから, or それまでがあれだものね. They are clearly pointing out how it was until the incident.


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## spu001

Hi, karlalou,



			
				spu001 said:
			
		

> Yup, this might help people who don't know what the subject and complement of a sentence are.





			
				karlalou said:
			
		

> If you are agreeing this second それまで is complement, we are talking about the international usage of the term 'complement' and the role of 'complement' is to explain the subject like 'rich' in "He is rich". I just meant this by saying 'that naturally this is explaining the subject'.


To put it straight, that sentence of mine means that that analysis is only reinventing the wheel. So, there's no need to talk about syntactic roles of the words. And the complement of a sentence doesn't automatically mean that it doesn't appear without other information that the subject per se doesn't have.



			
				spu001 said:
			
		

> if we assume that it is "a matter of opinion" -- going against the grain -- then yours too.





			
				karlalou said:
			
		

> I didn't make any statement to say something to deny yours, while you've said[...]


Except for the explanations of what the first それまで refers -- that was the issue here -- every interpretation is  "a matter of opinion (including mine)".
This forum is also a dictionary, so, I think we've got to elaborate each other

Your interpretation is interesting to me, too. That's why I'm here now. But we might want to put methodically correct approaches on the table -- if we try to.



> OK. You were saying "I don't think", I guess you meant this was your opinion.
> But here I came back to state that I still can't agree with your opinion.
> 
> It's not always それまでがそれまでだ.
> Like I've already said we also say それまでがあれだから, or それまでがあれだものね. They are clearly pointing out how it was until the incident.


They don't clearly point out how it was. Same as the OP's expression, they still say "guess it! wink wink."
I don't know about Japanese TV personalities so much but how about this?
A: "猿岩石の森脇も有吉の二匹目のドジョウを狙って復帰したんだって" (I don't know whether he really did or not. This is what my students were talking about yesterday.)
B: "でもそうはいかないよ。それまでがあれだものね。"
A: "そうだね (芸能界一度完全にやめちゃったしな)"
B: "絶対そうだよ (売れてるときも面白かったときは全然なかったからな)"

Simply put, それまで=それまで and それまで=あれ. You know that それまで refers to someone's past and you sense what the speaker is thinking -- as you know her reputation.
And if you're on the same page with the speaker, then that's ok to him or her -- since you are not talking about that girl in detail.
This is why I think it is tautology, although the second それまで is apparently the complement of the expression.

Have a nice day
Spu


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## karlalou

代名詞(pronoun) by デジタル大辞泉：


> １ 品詞の一。自立語のうち、特定または一般の名称を用いず、人・事物・場所・方向などを*直接に指示する語*。人称代名詞・指示代名詞に大別される。


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## spu001

ICYMI
慣用句 idiom
Bon voyage to the prescriptivism world.

Hope this helps
s


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## frequency

Do you all really say それまでがそれまでだ？　I don't think so very much! (But it's not impossible though.)
If you other Japanese members say that you use this one, I just didn't know it lol.



Yoshie0 said:


> 清水さんは、迷惑をかけた全ての生徒に謝ったのだが、何しろそれまでがそれまでだ。寛容に許してくれるものなど、ほとんどいなかった。


Sorry for repetition but that sentence is interchangeable to 何しろそれまで彼女はひどかった。


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## spu001

It's indeed all over the place. It makes sense that some people have never used it, though -- like many other expressions -- since it is, if any, poor man's logic.
Yes it's interchangeable with that. Also, the OP's expression handles her with kid gloves -- somewhat -- whereas ひどい means ひどい.

Best
s


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## frequency

Yes, thank you But the sentence strangely converys what he wants to say.


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