# Germanic equivalent of "second"?



## vince

I noticed that German has zweite, Dutch has tweede.

Does English have a word that means "second" (as in "after the first", not the unit of time) of Germanic origin?

I tried looking up "second" in the Online Etymology Dictionary and found that the word "other" was once used as a synonym of "second", but I found no Germanic word related to "two".


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## Askalon

I just looked it up on Wiktionary and apparently "twoth" is a word from the same origin as _zweite_ and _tweede_.  Obviously nobody uses it.


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## Alxmrphi

It_ is_* other* (oþer). It meant 'second' in Old English.
I've suggested this thread be moved to EHL.


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## timpeac

vince said:


> I noticed that German has zweite, Dutch has tweede.
> 
> Does English have a word that means "second" (as in "after the first", not the unit of time) of Germanic origin?
> 
> I tried looking up "second" in the Online Etymology Dictionary and found that the word "other" was once used as a synonym of "second", but I found no Germanic word related to "two".


Well, "twin" springs to mind (although not with the meaning you're looking for). You might have some luck asking the clever guys in the history and etymology of language forum.


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## sokol

In older German too "ander" = equivalent for English "other" was used in this meaning; this use however is dated now in standard language - saying that, "der eine - der andere" (one vs. other) certainly still is used, but "der erste - der andere" *(first* vs. other) is *not.*


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## Dan2

sokol said:


> In older German too "ander" = equivalent for English "other" was used in this meaning;


And words that look like "ander" are currently used in Scandinavian languages for "second".

Continuing this theme outside of Germanic:

The word for "second" in some of the Slavic languages (drug/h-) looks like the Russian word for "other". In some cases, I think, "drug-" is used for both "other" and "second".

The English word "second" and the related words in the Romance languages come from Latin from the root meaning "following".  But French has another word for "second" built on its word for "two".

EDIT: Re-reading my post, I see there's an ambiguity in the last sentence (_But French..._), and, interestingly, it plays on the very topic under discussion: the semantic similarity between "other" and "second".  The sentence can mean either "French has a _different_ word for _second_" or "a _second_ word for _second_".  I meant the latter (_deuxième _in addition to _second_).


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## er targyn

In Russian two is два (dva) and second - второй (vtoroj). Другой (drugoj) means other and друг (drug) - friend.


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## berndf

In certain idioms, "other" still means "second", e.g in "every other".


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## grubble

sokol said:


> In older German too "ander" = equivalent for English "other" was used in this meaning; this use however is dated now in standard language - saying that, "der eine - der andere" (one vs. other) certainly still is used, but "der erste - der andere" *(first* vs. other) is *not.*


This made me think of the English word "and". Lo and behold, here it is 

*and* 
O.E. and, ond, orig. meaning "thereupon, next," from P.Gmc. *unda (cf. O.S. endi, O.Fris. anda, M.Du. ende, O.H.G. enti, Ger. und, O.N. enn), cognate with L. ante, Gk. anti (see ante). Phrase and how as an exclamation of emphatic agreement dates from early 1900s.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=and&searchmode=none


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## koniecswiata

In Polish "drugi" means second, which is related to the Russian word for "other" (drugoj)--so that is a case of  the other-second semantic relationship.  One might have to look it up, but I think the Lithuanian word for "second" comes from the same IE root as the German word "ander" (other/different).


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## Angelo di fuoco

Dan2 said:


> The English word "second" and the related words in the Romance languages come from Latin from the root meaning "following".  But French has another word for "second" built on its word for "two".
> 
> EDIT: Re-reading my post, I see there's an ambiguity in the last sentence (_But French..._), and, interestingly, it plays on the very topic under discussion: the semantic similarity between "other" and "second".  The sentence can mean either "French has a _different_ word for _second_" or "a _second_ word for _second_".  I meant the latter (_deuxième _in addition to _second_).



This is due to the fact that in French the Latin ordinal numbers have become obsolete: deuxième vs. second (not incommon, but less used than deuxième), ~e, troisième vs. tiers (Tiers-Monde), tierce (musical interval), quart, ~e vs. quatrième, cinquième vs. quint (Charles-Quint). In compound ordinals you have also unième (but not! premier). In fractures you still have the ordinal numbers from 2-4. Tiers is used in some special expressions, quint only for Charles-Quint, tierce, quarte, quinte, sixte for musical intervals (possibly due to influence of the Italian language).


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## Lars H

Dan2 said:


> And words that look like "ander" are currently used in Scandinavian languages for "second".



Here a few Swedish examples:

Varannan dag - Every second day
Annandagen - Boxing Day
Andra klass - Second class
Andra traditioner - other traditions
Den andra sidan - the other side
De andra - the others

So we use "annan" or "andra" both to express "other" and "second". Pretty much the same in all Scandinavian languages.

About the root. I found this:
Goth. anþar, anc.sax. âthar, ôthar, anc. Ge. andar (Ge. ander), anglosaxon. óðer (Eng. other), from Germ. *anþara-, in Sanskr. antara-, litau. añtras;


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## Aydintashar

Years ago, I was in a bar in Germany with a friend from Portugal, who had some command of German. In order to ask for a second beer, he addressed the bar tendr in this way:
-Kann ich ein anderes Bier haben?
This was definitely a literal translation from English. Actually the Germans use neither "zweites" nor "anderes" in such situations. Instead. they use a complete different sentence:

- Ich möchte _noch _ein Bier.


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## Lars H

Aydintashar said:


> -Kann ich ein anderes Bier haben?



It means "Could I have another sort of beer?", as if I didn't like the taste of the beer I was currently drinking.

One can do the same mistake in French and Italian _une autre/encore une_ or _un'altra/ancora una_ so I'd guess the Portuguese language has some similar trap that foreigners could fall into.


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## timpeac

Lars H said:


> It means "Could I have another sort of beer?", as if I didn't like the taste of the beer I was currently drinking.
> 
> One can do the same mistake in French and Italian _une autre/encore une_ or _un'altra/ancora una_ so I'd guess the Portuguese language has some similar trap that foreigners could fall into.


In French, I believe, asking "puis-je avoir une autre bière" is ok, but considered colloquial for "puis-je avoir encore une bière".


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## Lars H

timpeac said:


> In French, I believe, asking "puis-je avoir une autre bière" is ok, but considered colloquial for "puis-je avoir encore une bière".



From experience of my own, I can confirm that both ways work , at least when the customer is appearantly a foreigner.


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## timpeac

Lars H said:


> From experience of my own, I can confirm that both ways work , at least when the customer is appearantly a foreigner.


As I say - my experience is that it is colloquial, but still native, French - and even "encore un autre"!


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