# へ vs に; e vs ni



## soka

Hi, I have a question regarding the usage of the particles へ and に.

For example in the following sentences:

病院に行かなければなりません
病院へ行かなければなりません

Which one is correct?
Are both correct?

Thanks


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## cheshire

Both are correct, and mean exactly the same.


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## SpiceMan

へ indica dirección. に indica destino.

Es la misma diferencia que entre decir "hacia" y "a". 
Voy hacia el sur. Voy al sur.

Pero como "hacia" es una palabra igual de corta que "a" en japonés, es mucho más común usarlas de manera indistinta que en castellano.


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## soka

Thanks for the answers.
Gracias por las respuestas.


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## AesSedai

SpiceMan said:


> へ indica dirección. に indica destino.
> 
> Es la misma diferencia que entre decir "hacia" y "a".
> Voy hacia el sur. Voy al sur.
> 
> Pero como "hacia" es una palabra igual de corta que "a" en japonés, es mucho más común usarlas de manera indistinta que en castellano.




Although my Spanish is rusty, it sounds as if the example in this case was unfortunate.  In Japanese, only へ is possible in "Minami e ikimasu."  That is because に indicates destination and へ indicates direction.  The emphasis with に is the final destination; the emphasis with へ is the action. In most cases, they can be used interchangeably and no difference in meaning is perceived.  However, there are situations where only one is acceptable.


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## Flaminius

AesSedai said:


> In Japanese, only へ is possible in "Minami e ikimasu." OK


"Mimai-ni ikimasu" is also possible.  I personally find myself almost exclusively using _-ni_ in this context.


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## AesSedai

That is truly surprising, since に is defined to place more emphasis on the 'location' rather than the movement and "South" is not a place of arrival, but a general direction, as seen in the following comment from an online dictionary:
「へ」は、現代では同用法の「に」とともに広く用いられるようになった。しかし、「へ」は「に」にくらべて、その方向指示性・移動性をより強く表す語であるといえる


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## Flaminius

Sorry AesSedai,

I mistook your sentence as *"**_*mimai*-e ikimasu_."  So please ignore my previous post.   (^_^;


> 「へ」は、現代では同用法の「に」とともに広く用いられるようになった。しかし、「へ」は「に」にくらべて、その方向指示性・移動性をより強く表す語であるといえる


I agree with this completely.

If someone says, "minami-ni ikimasu," "South" is treated as a place of arrival.  It is possible when "minami" bears a concrete sense of place.  A North Korean, for example, might talk about going to South.  I came up with a very special connotation but I think direction treated as place and place treated as direction (消防署の*方*からきました) are very common phenomena in Japanese.


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## cheshire

1)Minami ni ikimasu  
2)MInami e ikimasu  

Basically you can follow the dictionary's instruction. But that doesn't make 1) wrong.
"ni" can be used for direction.


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## AesSedai

I'll leave it up to the native speakers, since they clearly know better about usage than me as a foreigner; however, I would like to mention not having seen 'ni' used to indicate direction when used with "non-destinationable" locations, as for example, South, North, etc. 
It is pretty much the same as never having seen 'ni' used with relative time expressions (e.g., "asita", "raigetu", etc.)  because of the specificity implied by "ni".


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## Captain Haddock

I see に with time expressions all the time. It seems somewhat more emphatic or formal that way, but I could be wrong.

I'm less acquainted with cardinal directions + に, but the ALC dictionary has plenty of sentences with such constructions.


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## SpiceMan

That might be not the case in Japanese... I don't know if there's something associated to the "South" in Japan (maybe kyushu?), but it is in Argentina.

I used south in the Spanish examples, _exactly_ because using "a" (Spanish) make of South an specific place which is usually understood by the listener over Argentina (roughly, the Patagonia.)

Saying へ just states direction, but I thought that using "tokyo e ikimasu" or similar as an example would make grasping the difference more difficult.



AesSedai said:


> It is pretty much the same as never having seen 'ni' used with relative time expressions (e.g., "asita", "raigetu", etc.) because of the specificity implied by "ni".


Adverbs of time don't take prepositions in Spanish, English, nor Portuguese. Likewise, they don't take particles or postpositions in Japanese.


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## Captain Haddock

SpiceMan said:


> Adverbs of time don't take prepositions in Spanish, English, nor Portuguese. Likewise, they don't take particles or postpositions in Japanese.



This seems to be true in many but not all cases.

1. [Time Word] + には contrasts one time with another.
Example: お金を貸してくれたら、*明日には*返すよ。
_If you could lend me some money (now), I'll pay you back tomorrow._

2. [Time Word] + に can mean "until" that time.
Example: 今日できることを*明日に*延ばすな
_Don't put off till tomorrow what you can accomplish today._

But in the general case, no particle is needed.


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## SpiceMan

I'm not sure about the first one, but I would say that's a noun, not an adverb. 

In the second phrase I'm 100% sure that "明日" is a noun, not an adverb of time.


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## Captain Haddock

The concept of the adverb is not nearly as clear-cut in Japanese as in IE languages. Many words are simultaneously adverb and noun-like. I suspect asking "is this 明日 an adverb?" is not a useful question for most people trying to decide whether to use a particle.


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## UUBiker

Hello all.  I'm trying to figure out why this expression is "toire ni iku," to go to the bathroom," rather than "toire (h)e iku."  I don't know why and cannot think of a good explanation.  Does anyone have one?

dirk.  daaku


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## xochu

Both Ni iku and He iku is grammatically correct.
But the meaning is kinda different ( slightly....really little)

Ni iku = go to a place (straightly)   
He iku = go to a place/ to a vague direction

Exemple : 遠くに行きたい　/　遠くへ行きたい  (I wanna go far away)
              tooku ni ikitai / tooku he ikitai

both are ok but I would prefer using HE. HE gives you a more poetic impression...


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## pdmx

I would say that に is used for a purpose, like
食べに行きます  I'm going to have lunch (for the purpose of eating)

whereas へ　is only the location you're aiming at.

Therefore, because you generally go to the toilet for a special purpose, not only for the sake of its location, you say
トイレに行きます


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## sekaijuuni

My Japanese book said something like (and I'm doing some pretty serious paraphrasing here) that　へ implies only motion while に emphasizes the completion of the motion.

For example:
学校に行く。This means "I go to school (and I arrive there)."
学校へ行く。This is more like, "I set out for school." Something may have happened on the way or the speaker may have changed his destination -- it does not imply whether he reached his destination, so we can't know.

Therefore, バスに乗る is correct and  バスへ乗る is not. Once you've gotten on the bus, you have competed the action. There are no two ways about it.

I'm not really sure if this rule applies to the original sentences under discussion, but I would probably say 病院*に*いかなければなりません. After all, you want them to go to the hospital -- not start walking in its general direction and see what happens from there.


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## xochu

Okay. Let me say something fair.
へとには基本的に同じだと思う。
僕も毎日日本語を使っていて、へとにの使い分けはあんまりしていません。
（まったくではないが）
以上。


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## Flaminius

Hello *xochu*,

Welcome to the WR forums!  May the language fun be with you.  



> へとには基本的に同じだと思う。


確かに置き換え可能な場合が多いですが、ネイティヴが自覚しない違いもあります。このスレッドの議論がもりあがっているのも、日本語学習者が明確につかみきれない違いがある証拠ではないでしょうか。

違いの一つは、「へ」は移動の終点を表す動詞とは使えないことです。*sekaijuuni*さんの例があてはまります。
OKバスに乗る
*バスへ乗る

もっと明確に移動の終点を表す動詞に「着く」や「上がる」があります。
OK学校に着く / 舞台に上がる
*学校へ着く / 舞台へ上がる

「バスへ乗る」や「学校へ着く」、「舞台へ上がる」はネット検索でヒットしますが、「に」を使う文に比べて少数です。

何が移動の終点を表す動詞かというと、終着点まで到達しないと動詞の内容が成立しない動詞の意味です。「着く」なら校門をくぐるまで動詞の内容は成立しませんし、「上がる」なら舞台に両足で立つまでは「舞台に上がる」という事実は存在しません。

これが「行く」の場合には、学校の方角へ一歩足を踏み出しただけでも動詞の内容が成立すると考えられます。
OK学校[に/へ]行く途中で、先生に会った。
*学校[に/へ]着く途中で、先生に会った。

一方で「乗る」や「上がる」は「途中で」を使う文が成立するので、移動の終点を表す動詞には幾つかの種類があることが予想されます。


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## Bakamono

Hello!

I've been reading the thread with interest. But I have some question about the main topic.

For example, I've always read: 「X*へ*ようこそ。」 but is it ok to say: 「X*に*ようこそ。」?　Why not?

Also, I've recently read this: 「これは、次の動画*へ*の動画レスポンスです。」 Could it be: 「これは、次の動画*に*の動画レスポンスです。」 (I think I can guess *へ *is better there, but... Nihongo always could surprise you!)


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## lrosa

フラミニウスさん、

最近この文を子どもの昔話で読みました：

「息子はお昼近くに、やっときのうの場所*ヘつきました*。」

これは変な用法でしょうか？


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## Flaminius

Bakamono said:


> For example, I've always read: 「X*へ*ようこそ。」 but is it ok to say: 「X*に*ようこそ。」?　Why not?


I don't have problem with "X-ni yōkoso" but "X-e yōkoso" out-numbers this.  Why indeed?  



> Also, I've recently read this: 「これは、次の動画*へ*の動画レスポンスです。」 Could it be: 「これは、次の動画*に*の動画レスポンスです。」


No, never.  In fact, *_-nino_ is ungrammatical anywhere.



lrosa said:


> 「息子はお昼近くに、やっときのうの場所*ヘつきました*。」
> 
> これは変な用法でしょうか？


I admit my objection to this is much weaker than to *_X-nino_, but I'd rewrite it to 場所に着く if it were my own composition.


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