# زنديق / كافر / ملحد



## MathiasSWE

What is the difference between these three ways of the word for atheist (atheism)? From what I understand زنديق means someone who is charged with disbelief of any revealed religion, even with magical heresies. كافر is an ungrateful atheist, who does not appreciate what is considered a gift from Allah. ملحد is basically a heretic who denies the revelation of the prophet Muhammad.

Am I right? And if so, is there any more neutral word for atheist/atheism which does not have any bad connotations and does not imply a lack of morals/character etc?


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## Mahaodeh

زنديق was originally for people of the Manichaeism faith, which allowed for a lot of vices (unlike most other religions) and was an agnostic religion; then people started to use it to refer to anyone whose religion does not prevent him from vice or who does not follow a religion to prevent him from vice; it also began to be used for any atheist.
 
ملحد is someone that does not believe in god or religion at all; it's the best translation for atheist.
 
كافر in general is one who does not believe in God or Islam, or believes in God as well as other gods. But it can also be used less strictly, as one can practice كُفر without being a كافر. Moreover, when saying kaafir in general, most people would understand it as كافر بالله, but one can believe in god but still be كافر نعمة أو كافر فضل as an example. Moreover, a زنديق and a ملحد are both كافر بالله; as well as agnosts, animists, pagans....etc., basically anyone that is not a Muslim, Christian, Jew or Sabi'i.
 
It's difficult to ask for a word to translate atheism to without bad connotations; for people who believe religion (whether Muslim or Christian) is very important, not believing in god is bad enough. However, if you want the least number of connotations, I'd go for ملحد, while I can't promise you that it is viewed positively; I can say that it does not include other religions nor does it have anything to do with virtues.
 
Also, I can't see anyone saying أنا زنديق أو أنا كافر - it would be like a prostitute calling herself a h***; but atheists do call themselves ملحدين.


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## Abu Rashid

> From what I understand زنديق means someone who is charged with disbelief of any revealed religion, even with magical heresies.



I think zandaqah is specifically considered to be disbelief by corrupting the religion. The term is actually Persian in origin, and doesn't have any actual basis in Islamic teachings.


> كافر is an ungrateful atheist, who does not appreciate what is considered a gift from Allah.



I think kaafir literally means to "cover over", so it means to cover the truth about the one who caused you to be, who designed and sustains you.


> ملحد is basically a heretic who denies the revelation of the prophet Muhammad.



This means atheist, from memory.


> Am I right? And if so, is there any more neutral word for atheist/atheism which does not have any bad connotations and does not imply a lack of morals/character etc?



Perhaps علماني? Which basically means secularist. But you must realise that in a society that is deeply religious any word you choose for disbelief is instantly going to attain those negative connotations.


> it would be like a prostitute calling herself a h***;



I think that should be w****.

The w is silent.


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## Mahaodeh

Abu Rashid said:


> Perhaps علماني? Which basically means secularist. But you must realise that in a society that is deeply religious any word you choose for disbelief is instantly going to attain those negative connotations.


 
I wouldn't advise علماني; it has different connotations to different people. Some see it as someone that does not follow religion; others see it as someone that does follow a religion and does believe in it, but does not let the religion interfere with politics or the state; a third group realise that a person that is علماني believes in God and does follow a relgion, but in some ways he is still kaafir (according to someone's, frankly not so logical, explanation!).

Some Christian sects in the Arab world (as I was told by one of them) use the word علماني as an opposite of كَنَسِي, which means that most of the Christian population (according to what I was told) are علمانيون as opposed to nuns, preists, bishops, monks...etc. who are not.

I think علماني might be a little bit too loaded and might be misunderstood.


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## L.2

Mahaodeh said:


> كافرin general is one who does not believe in God or Islam, or believes in God as well as other gods. .


 
I'd simply say that Kafir كافر is the one who is not a Muslim, Christian or Jewish I mean anyone who believes in existance of God but worships a false god like an idol, moon, sun or whatever.
Mul7ed is the one who does not believe in God's existance at all the one who thinks that our universe came by accident.
Sometimes Kafir and mul7ed are synonymouse but atheists prefer the latter and in their websites they refer to themselves as mul7deen ملحدين.


Also Maha you are wrong the one who worships gods along with God is not Kafir by any mean. According to the Quran Arab Pagans were always Mushrkeen مشرکین


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## L.2

Today I came across the word 'la deeni'
I think it is what I was looking for, it is more neutral and polite.


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## kifaru

I don't know about everybody else but in reference toكافر in every masjid I have attended in the U.S. kaafir is anyone who is not a muslim including and especially Christians. I don't agree with it myself but I always heard it that way and the connotation is always negative.


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## Jennie.

I don't agree with L.2 about "la deeni": it literally means "unreligious", which is indifferent or hostile to *religion*, or not connected with *religion*. As far as I know, one can believe in a god (or God if you prefer) without being religious. So you can be "bila deen" without necessarily being an atheist.


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## londonmasri

Actually you will find that this is a topic which is not exclusively  linguistic i.e. a little wander around Google should reveal that the scholars themselves have differed in their interpretations of the word 'kufr'.


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## Faylasoof

The English word _atheist_ has a Greek origin:
α  (without) +  θεος (god) 

A number of dictionaries define:

ملحد _mul7id_ = heretical, unbelieving, apostate; atheist.

Although   زنديق has _pre-Islamic origins that go back to Sassanian Iran and certain heretical groups amongst Zoroastrians – the word is of Pahlavi etymology,_ briefly discussed by yours truly before, but can’t trace the thread (!) - the word became part of the Arabic lexicon and officially, as per Hans Wehr:

تزندق _tazandaqa_ = to be a freethinker / atheist.

   زنديق _zindiiq_ =  atheist / freethinker.

But there is also, دهري _dahrii_ = freethinker, atheist. <- Perhaps this term is less loaded.  

As far as a كافر goes, some of our over zealous clerics accuse other Muslims of _kufr_ كفر because they have different opinions! So I don't think the term is used exclusively for only non-Muslims or atheists either. 

In Urdu we have all these as well as:
منكر _munkir_ - from أنكر = to disavow, refuse to acknowledge etc.  But I don't think it is used in Arabic.


Apostasy, disbelief etc. all of course depend on one's own point of view. Early Muslims were considered “disbelievers” by the pagan Quraysh and so persecuted, as were early Christians by the Romans who soon found a new use for these "heretical" people, viz. as fodder for wild beasts. Reminds me of one of  George Bernard Shaw's plays where he showed his wry sense of humour regarding this sinister Roman past time.

 PS: BTW, an apostate is also called a مرتد or a مارق !


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## arsham

As a side note I think materialist, atheist are better translations for دهری than freethinker! This word is often used along side طبیعی .

For apostasy and apostate there are also ردّة، ارتداد، مرتد.


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## Mahaodeh

Up to my knowledge there are two types of الدهريون they are: الطبيعيون والفلاسفة. But I agree with you, freethinker is not only not a good translation, but it is also very misleading. Atheist is indeed a better translation based on the definition of a دهري, which is a person that believes it is time/nature that created everything and that this is the way things are and will be to the end (hence no creator and no heaven and hell...etc.).


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## Faylasoof

There may be a difference of opinion here as there are / were الفلاسفة who are / were not الدهريون! 

An atheist is also a freethinker and certainly materialism (depending on how one wishes to define this as there are many kinds) may be part of this. 

The problem with defining an atheist is that the point of reference, by definiton is God - α  (without) +  θεος (god). Atheists see themselves differently from the way theists might see them.

So an atheist is a person who does not happen to be a theist and thinks freely about everything but in particular can be narrowed down (by theists) to not believing in a creator, which is just one aspect of his / her thinking. 

I looked up Wehr, just to see what it says about دهري:

دهري = an adherent of the _dhariya_, a materialistic, atheistic doctrine in Islam; atheist; freethinker.


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## Abu Rashid

> The problem with defining an atheist is that the point of reference, by definiton is God - α  (without) +  θεος (god). Atheists see themselves differently from the way theists might see them.



Since theism is prevalent in pretty much all human societies (that we know of), atheism is seen as the exception, and so inevitably they define themselves by their rejection of this aspect of human culture. Although they may have evolved to want to define themselves in a separate manner, inevitably that's how they began, as a rejection of theism. So I think la deeni is good, or perhaps la ilahi if such a word is possible.


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## Mahaodeh

Faylasoof said:


> There may be a difference of opinion here as there are / were الفلاسفة who are / were not الدهريون!


Maybe you miss understood me, I don't mean ALL philosophers; I mean that there are الدهريون الفلاسفة والدهريون الطبيعيون.


Faylasoof said:


> An atheist is also a freethinker and certainly materialism (depending on how one wishes to define this as there are many kinds) may be part of this.


My point was that "freethinker" is misleading. It implies that theists do not think freely and that atheists are not narrow minded when in fact thinking and believing do not have to be connected. You can have a free thinking theist and a narrow minded atheist (in fact, the way I see it, most people whether theists or atheists are actually narrow minded!)


Faylasoof said:


> دهري = an adherent of the _dhariya_, a materialistic, atheistic doctrine in Islam; atheist; freethinker.


This definition is wrong, this is not a doctrine in Islam! It's a name given to people that have a certain doctrine, usually not connected to any religion be it Islam or other!!


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## arsham

I agree with Mahaodeh in that the negation of God's existence is not a _necessary _condition for being a free thinker!

See here and here (in Persian).

And here for dahri.

By the way, what's the _proper_ Arabic term for freethinker?


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## Faylasoof

arsham said:


> I agree with Mahaodeh in that the negation of God's existence is not a _necessary _condition for being a free thinker!
> 
> See here and here (in Persian).
> 
> And here for dahri.
> 
> By the way, what's the _proper_ Arabic term for freethinker?



Al-Mawrid gives: 

Freethinker  
الحر الفكر  و بخاصة : الملحد 
Some may disagree with this but there are few resources that deal with this without getting into polemics.

While I agree the Wehr definition of دهريis wanting, even misleading, I would first see the original German before I “condemn” him. One hopes that Cowan did an accurate a translation. Besides, at earlier times there were groups within the Muslim world who were accused (by fellow Muslims) of دهرية and إلحاد. Perhaps, just perhaps, this is what Wehr meant. But I agree he should have elaborated a little on this, if indeed this is what he had in mind.

As for negation of God's existence not being a _necessary _condition for being a free thinker, I agree! It is not necessary, just sufficient! 

 It does depend on one’s definition of a freethinker and if as a theist you seriously question your belief in God then you are no longer a theist! It is therefore pointless putting one’s theistic ideas to a scientific test and logical reasoning from first principles as one would stumble very quickly. But I must add that I know many broad-minded theists.

 Though language and philosophy are deeply intertwined, I shall refrain from elaborating any further as this a language forum and not one on philosophy. Also, I’m not putting any value judgement on any of the things I’ve said above. Just stating things as I see them. 

 Having said all this, I would agree with Mahaodeh that both theists and atheists can become narrow-minded; and I rub shoulders with both all the time. Agnostics seem to be a different case.

Agnostic (_from Greek; α = not + γνωστος = knowable_), which in Arabic is:
 اللا أدري (s.)  اللا أدريون (pl.)


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## IBNGABIROL

Hi. I hope I don't bother you by re-opening this thread.

Is زنديق an active participle? Of which verb?

And زندكة... is a nisbah?

I want to understand them gramatically. Thank you!


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## fdb

No, it is not a participle. It is noun borrowed from Persian.

Zindīḳ - Brill Reference


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## IBNGABIROL

Oh, thanks for your insight.


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