# EN: If I was/were - subjunctive



## mnewcomb71

mystiquep said:


> If I was to write a sentence as ...


Mystiquep...if I may, a little help with the English:

If I were to write
not
If I was to write

If followed by a past tense must take the subjunctive in English, despite what many English speakers say or do.

*Moderator note: *multiple threads merged to create this one.


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## mystiquep

Hi,
No harm in your correcting my english. But out of curiosity, i did a search and this is what came up...

"The subjunctive mood, always weak in English, has been dwindling away for centuries until it has almost vanished. According to traditional thought, statements about the conditional future such as “If I were a carpenter . . .” require the subjunctive “were”; but “was” is certainly much more common. Still, if you want to impress those in the know with your usage, use “were.” The same goes for other pronouns: “you,” “she,” “he,” and “it.” In the case of the plural pronouns “we” and “they” the form “was” is definitely nonstandard, of course, because it is a singular form.   "
You would not happen to be the author of this site, would you?


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## geostan

Rergardless of what you may have found on the Internet, many English speakers might think you were uneducated if you used "was" instead of "were." Note, I said "many", not "all." There are descriptive grammarians who tend to go with the flow, and rely on numbers to such an extent that if enough people use it, they consider it all right. I do not subscribe to that notion. People who care about language should be the judges of what is correct or not, not those who use the language loosely.


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## Suehil

geostan said:


> Rergardless of what you may have found on the Internet, many English speakers might think you were uneducated if you used "was" instead of "were."


 
I'm with you all the way on that!!


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## Xanthius

I agree. I would say 'if I were' and not 'if I was'... 

However, my friend who edits for Oxford University Press tells me that they now allow 'if I was' as correct English.


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## Albert 50

To say that the subjunctive has "almost vanished" is an exaggeration. In a sentence such as "I insist that he go with us", most people I know would not say "that he goes".

My wife is Texan, a part of the USA in which many people are "a little negligent" in the way they use English. That being stated, my wife always says "If I were" and almost never "If I was"... Her parents who are wonderful people who have spent their lives in a rural area "mix it up" and sometimes say "If I was " and sometimes "if I were"... I would imagine that a majority in the Southern US say "If I was" but it is still common to hear doctors, lawyers, teachers, etc use the subjunctive form...

Though it is not a "big deal" any more, and there are areas in which "If I was" is perfectly acceptable, I would still recommend that a learner of English use the subjunctive in appropriate sentences (and I am not a "purist"... loin de là)

Cordialment
Albert


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## SãoEnrique

Salut à tous,

Pourriez-vous m'expliquer pourquoi dans cette phrase en anglais il y a 'were' au lieu de 'was', pourtant c'est la première personne? Je pense qu'ici on utilise 'were' car c'est un souhait mais je ne suis pas sûr. Qu'en pensez-vous?

Could you explain to me why in this sentence in english there is 'were' rather 'was', yet it's the first person? I think that we use 'were' because it's a wish but I'm not sure. What do you think?

If I were rich I would travel all around the world...

Merci


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## Omelette

Not really a translation question, I don’t think. But anyway. Sometimes described as ‘a contra-factual hypothesis’.  I’m not rich, but if I were.  (so equally, clearly not a wish, ‘If I were dead’ etc)


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## Donaldos

Il s'agit d'une forme de subjonctif en anglais. On l'appelle aussi _prétérit modal_ en français. Il est utilisé ici pour exprimer l'irréel. Son emploi n'est pas directement lié à l'expression du souhait :

_If I were you, I wouldn't do it._

_Si j'étais toi_... (sous-entendu : mais je ne le suis pas (et je ne souhaite pas forcément être toi))


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## Jan in California

It's the subjunctive form.  However, many Americans don't know to use it.  If I WERE rich is definitely proper, correct grammar and yet i'd say many (if not most) Americans don't use it nowadays.
"If I were a rich man....."  (from "Fiddler on the Roof")


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## SãoEnrique

Omelette said:


> Not really a translation question, I don’t think. But anyway. Sometimes described as ‘a contra-factual hypothesis’. I’m not rich, but if I were. (so equally, clearly not a wish, ‘If I were dead’ etc)


Thank you Omelette for your answer but "If I were" is habitual in the language? If I say "If I _was_ rich I would travel..." that's wrong?

WERE is more used to express a wish, that's right?



Donaldos said:


> Il s'agit d'une forme de subjonctif en anglais. On l'appelle aussi _prétérit modal_ en français. Il est utilisé ici pour exprimer l'irréel. Son emploi n'est pas directement lié à l'expression du souhait :
> 
> _If I were you, I wouldn't do it._
> 
> _Si j'étais toi_... (sous-entendu : mais je ne le suis pas (et je ne souhaite pas forcément être toi))


Bonjour Donaldos,

Si je dis "If I was you..." c'est faux ou juste?

Merci


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## clairet

It's the present subjunctive form.  I believe that in French you would use the imperfect after "Si.." here - "Si j'étais riche.."  You could do the same in English "If I was rich..." (in spoken language at least) but there's a feeling that this is not quite so correct.


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## Enquiring Mind

There's a useful tutorial here, SaoEnrique. If I were you, I wouldn't say "If I was you", as Jan in California noted.   You *will* hear BE speakers say it too, but it comes across as uneducated, and certainly shouldn't be used if you are seeking to impress.


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## clairet

I'm not sure it's quite as clear-cut as Enquiring Mind says, though I agree with his warning.  "If the moon was made of green cheese..." is an expression one hears; "If the moon were made of green cheese.." would sound a bit pretentious.  Maybe if I was better-educated I wouldn't make this comment.


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## Omelette

Yes it’s something people have strong feelings about. Personally (and of course I speak the most beautiful English in the world) I wouldn’t find it any way offensive if anyone were to say ‘If I was rich’ (though I’d tend not to do it myself.)
I actually thought AE speakers were more likely to follow this rule than BE speakers, but Jan in California seems to think they’re pretty lax.


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## SãoEnrique

Omelette said:


> Yes it’s something people have strong feelings about. Personally (and of course I speak the most beautiful English in the world) I wouldn’t find it any way offensive if anyone were to say ‘If I was rich’ (though I’d tend not to do it myself.)
> I actually thought AE speakers were more likely to follow this rule than BE speakers, but Jan in California seems to think they’re pretty lax.



If I understood, for you there are no problems to use "_was_" or "_were_" although you wanna speak _the most beautiful English in the world? 
_


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## Cyion

Just to chime in... 

Grammatically speaking, "If I _were_" is correct and "If I _was_" is incorrect, so it'd probably be better if you were (  ) to use it when writing... 
However if you're speaking, it really won't make a difference. Native speakers use both, depending on where you come from (and even then it's not certain)...


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## Keith Bradford

Cyion said:


> ...Grammatically speaking, "If I _were_" is correct and "If I _was_" is incorrect...



Well, no.  It depends on context.

*Were *is the subjunctive of _was_, so it's used in cases where the supposition is unreal.  Take the following four cases.
*
If I were you... *This is completely unreal because I could never be you.
_*If I were rich... *_This is hypothetical, but I might perhaps be rich one day.
_*If I was rich...*_ This is a possibility, perhaps I was actually rich in those days.
_*If I was at school... *_This is a certainty, I certainly was at school on some occasions.

Remember, good usage is to choose the word you need to express your meaning; it's not a set of rules that must always apply.


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## Cyion

Wouldn't it depend on whether or not it were seminal to a clause? 

I agree that "if I was sad..." as opposed to "if I were sad" would be valid, but only as part of a clause, for example:
When I was young, if I was sad, I would snuggle my teddy bear. 

In the example that SãoEnrique uses, "If I were..." couldn't be replaced by "If I was", if it were to be grammatically correct, could it?

I'm new to the forum, so apologies if I haven't quite learnt the ropes yet...


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## Donaldos

Sur l'expression de l'irréel :



> *if I were etc*
> 
> We often use _were_ instead of _was_ after if. This is common in both formal and informal styles. In a formal style _were_ is more common than _was_, and many people consider it more correct, especially in American English. The grammatical name for this use of were is 'subjunctive'.
> 
> _If I were rich, I would spend all my time travelling.
> If my nose were a little shorter I'd be quite pretty._





> We often use the structure_ If I were you.._. to give advice.
> 
> _I shouldn't worry if I were you.
> If I were you, I'd get that car serviced._
> 
> _If I was you_ is also possible. Some people consider it incorrect.



(_Practical English Usage_, OUP) 




Cyion said:


> I'm new to the forum, so apologies if I haven't quite learnt the ropes yet...



Bienvenue


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## SãoEnrique

Keith Bradford said:


> Well, no. It depends on context.
> 
> *Were *is the subjunctive of _was_, so it's used in cases where the supposition is unreal. Take the following four cases.
> *
> If I were you... *This is completely unreal because I could never be you.
> _*If I were rich... *_This is hypothetical, but I might perhaps be rich one day.
> _*If I was rich...*_ This is a possibility, perhaps I was actually rich in those days.
> _*If I was at school... *_This is a certainty, I certainly was at school on some occasions.
> 
> Remember, good usage is to choose the word you need to express your meaning; it's not a set of rules that must always apply.



Thank you Keith Bradford for the examples and the explanations that you gave. Nevertheless, the only thing that I would know if it sounds weird when we substitute the two words (was and were)?


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## Keith Bradford

It doesn't sound at all wierd to an educated Brit.  It might sound odd to people who never learnt the rule, but I can't be held responsible for their ignorance...


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## guillaumedemanzac

Agree with keith. they are all possible and not weird at all.
I would add to his examples *If I was you, ....* However footballers use this so you need to change your accent to Estuary English and say *"Yea, mate, I dunno but if I wuz you*....".
And* If I was rich, .....* is OK in some situations because it implies (to me) that I was rich and am now poor but if I was rich again, I would do ... X ... .
The same with *If I was at school, ....... *(again), I would try harder than I actually did.
As someone above said, it depends who you are trying to fit in with. *If I was you* is very definitely down-market but has a lot of "street cred".
guillaume


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## Keith Bradford

SaoEnrique, I realise I might have misunderstood your question.

You cannot change the examples I gave, if you want to convey the right meaning.  This is not a question of _rules_, but _tools_.  The way to convey your meaning is to use the appropriate mode of the verb.

So, to look at this the other way round:
If you want to give the idea of an impossible or highly improbable situation, use the subjunctive "were".
If you want to give the idea of a perfectly possible (or even certain) situation, use the indicative "was".

People who don't do this are as clumsy as those who use a chisel to open a paint tin: wrong tool!


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## SãoEnrique

Thank you to have corrected Keith Bradford.


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## L'Inconnu

Jan in California said:


> It's the subjunctive form.  However, many Americans don't know to use it.  If I WERE rich is definitely proper, correct grammar and yet i'd say many (if not most) Americans don't use it nowadays.
> "If I were a rich man....."  (from "Fiddler on the Roof")



I would beg to disagree. On the East coast, 'Were' is far more common and natural sounding than 'was' after 'if'.


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## Jan in California

It could also be a difference in language skills (or caring about language skills).  I spent my first 50 years in the New York/New Jersey area, and have been in California for almost 4 years.  Regardless of geography, among friends who are very literate or language-oriented, most of them said "if I were"; among my friends who were less so, it was "if I was".  I have friends with PhDs in architecture who say "if I was", and friends who have a bachelor's degree but an interest in language (like myself) who say "if I were".


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## L'Inconnu

Keith Bradford said:


> *If I were you... *This is completely unreal because I could never be you.
> _*If I were rich... *_This is hypothetical, but I might perhaps be rich one day.
> _*If I was rich...*_ This is a possibility, perhaps I was actually rich in those days.
> _*If I was at school... *_This is a certainty, I certainly was at school on some occasions.


I think it would have been clearer if you had used complete sentences. For example, in the third phrase 'If I was rich...' if I understand your point, the speaker himself/herself cannot even remember clearly what happened in the past. So, a complete sentence might go like this:

'If I was rich (I don't even know for sure that I was), I probably had an expensive car.'

Notice that in the above sentence I use the past tense in both clauses. Presumably, I should also use the past tense in the dependent clause after 'If I was at school'. On the other hand, I probably should use 'would' after 'If I were'. Is this right?

I have friends with Ph.Ds too. Perhaps some of them would say: 'If I was rich, I would...', but not too many of them would say: 'If I was you'. The condition in the former example might become true one day, but the condition in the latter example is virtually impossible. Albeit they may not be very conscientious of it, it seems to me that most Americans respect this distinction. Anyhow, 'were' is a special case. 'To be' is the (only?) verb in the English language with an irregular past subjunctive. For all other verbs the past subjunctive is identical to the preterite. For example,

'I think its high time we *bought* a new car.'

Some of foreigners may not realize that the subjunctive has a present form and a past form. The present form (simply drop the 'to' from the infinitive; e.g., I _demand_ that he *be*...) is rarely used, but the past form is quite common among American speakers, whether they are well educated or not. Notice my usage of the word 'might' in the above paragraph. Why do I use the 'past' tense to refer to a hypothetical possibility that may become true in the *future*?



SãoEnrique said:


> Je pense qu'ici on utilise 'were' car c'est un souhait mais je ne suis pas sûr. Qu'en pensez-vous?


If I were rich I would travel all around the world..

Il me semble que c'est également correct d'employer le subjonctif pour exprimer un souhait. 

'I wish that you were...'
'Je voudrais que tu sois...'

'If only you were ...'
'Si seulment vous étiez...'


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## Assurancetourix

L'Inconnu said:


> 'If I was rich (I don't even know for sure that I was), I probably had an expensive car.'
> 
> Notice that in the above sentence I use the past tense in both clauses. Presumably, I should also use the past tense in the dependent clause after 'If I was at school'. On the other hand, I probably should use 'would' after 'If I were'. Is this right?



Yes, that seems right. You can use _would _but it has a different value and you still need a past tense:

_If I was rich, I would have had an expensive car.
_
The same construction can be used in a slightly different way but this does not require a past tense:

_If I was at school, my mother would have lunch with friends. If I was at home we would make egg and soldiers.
_
Here _if _could be replaced with _when_.



L'Inconnu said:


> I have friends with Ph.Ds too. Perhaps some of them would say: 'If I was rich, I would...', but not too many of them would say: 'If I was you'. The condition in the former example might become true one day, but the condition in the latter example is virtually impossible. Albeit they may not be very conscientious of it, it seems to me that most Americans respect this distinction.



Fair enough, but it's often surprising how inaccurate our impressions of what others would say can be... I think they are often assumptions based on what we would say ourselves.



L'Inconnu said:


> Anyhow, 'were' is a special case. 'To be' is the (only?) verb in the English language with an irregular past subjunctive. For all other verbs the past subjunctive is identical to the preterite.


Yes, at least I can't think of any others. Of course it's only irregular in the first person and the third person singular. All of this obviously makes it difficult to argue that English speakers systematically distinguish between the preterite and the past subjunctive. I suspect that in many cases people just learn _i__f I were you _etc. as set phrases and then regurgitate them. Perhaps the rule is on its way out and only survives in such phrases. If KB (post 24) means that _if I was rich _implies _and I may well be one day_ whereas _if I were rich _implies _but I never will be_, I can only say that I would not draw those inferences. In the second case my "careful speaker" flag would go up, but I would not infer anything about how likely the speaker thought it was that they would one day be rich.


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## guillaumedemanzac

You can say *If I went**, she wouldn't let me in.*      However some people would say *If I were to go, there would be problems.* (because she hates me).
I think careful (pedantic!) speaker is an *excellent classification* for who does and who doesn't use subjunctives. Past tense subjunctives are not "visible" in English for obvious reasons.
guillaume  careful speaker tag


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## L'Inconnu

Assurancetourix said:


> You can use _would _but it has a different value and you still need a past tense:
> _If I was at school, my mother would have lunch with friends. If I was at home we would make egg and soldiers.
> _Here _if _could be replaced with _when_.


In other words, 'would' goes with habitual activities. I think the corresponding French phrase would be:

Si/quand j'étais à l'école, ma mère déjeunait avec des amis.



guillaumedemanzac said:


> You can say *If I went**, she wouldn't let me in.*      However some people would say *If I were to go, there would be problems*


As I understand it, the two examples you give serve two different purposes. The first example *"*If I went, she wouldn't let me in.*" *corresponds to past habitual activities. 

Si j'allais, elle ne me *laissait* pas entrer. 

Whereas, "If I were to go, there would be problems." represents a future possibility.

"Si j'allais, il y *aurait* des problèmes.


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