# usefulness of MSA vs. French in North Africa



## muselinazi

Hi,
Just wondering about the comparative usefulness/prevelance of Modern Standard Arabic as a lingua franca across North Africa in comparison to French. Are both languages used only by an educated minority or would knowledge of one be more advantageous than the other when trying to make oneself understood across the region? 
Thanks for your help,
Kate


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## Taalib

Having spent a few months in the sub-region, here are my thoughts, Kate. Almost everyone, naturally, understands the local daarija. Most people know French (the few pockets of Spanish Morocco notwithstanding). Many people understand MSA. A minority know English. Strictly speaking, if you speak French fluently you will be fine--hence the hordes of French tourists in Morocco and Tunisia in holiday season. 

If you speak MSA fluently, however, you will _also_ be fine. There will be some moments of confusion as you place words in the local dialect, and there might be some quizzical stares as locals wonder how it is you that are speaking al-fusha, but in my experience very few people will not understand you, no matter how big the gap may be between dialect and MSA in these countries. Every government office you may need to go as a foreigner--post office, banks, police, etc.--will be full of MSA-literate individuals. Even on the streets, you will be understood by most. In fact, my experience was that many locals might be a little hesitant to converse with you if their grasp of al-fusha is not perfect--a mixture of embarrassment and modesty. Many a shopkeeper, restauranteur, cab driver, etc. will compliment you on your Arabic, and then apologize that they can't speak al-fusha as well as they should. In my experience, only in rural areas in which education is intermittent and access to satellite TV (with the all-levelling Arab news channels spreading their al-fusha media around!) is sporadic will you ever be in a position where you just can't be understood, given a day's worth of picking up local dialect and a strong background of MSA.


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## Tajabone

Hello Kate,

 The case I do know well is Algeria (I will let Tariq tell you more things about Morocco).

 Let's say that in big cities (more in the North and precisely the center -Algiers- and the West - Oran ), French is understood. It remains extensively used and understood in some areas as Kabylia.

 I think you will always get someone who will be able to help you in French. As for other things, it depends of your purpose and the areas you visit. Morocco and Tunisia are touristic countries and French is used in important towns and cities.

 Classical arabic would help but I guess if you were in the places I've mentionned above, people would directly answer back in French.


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## muselinazi

Tajabone and Taalib,
Thanks for your replies. They were both very helpful. I guess you could put my original question within the broader context of trying to figure out the general utility and merits of learning MSA. Aside from the inherent pleasure of learning a language and ultimately being able to read Arabic language newspapers and literature, is learning MSA worth the trouble? I seem to get a lot of mixed messages when enquiring about the utility of the language (from the perspective of a non-dialect speaker).
I wanted to take MSA at university this year but the prospect of not being able to make myself understood at even an elementary level has left me a little confused.
Arabic is a major community language in the area of Melbourne in which I live but Arabic is not widely taught here. Of the two tertiary institutions that offer a major, neither provide any tuition in spoken dialects.
Ultimately I'd like to both travel to North Africa and the Middle East _and _to communicate with the large migrant community in my city. 
I guess I've got some thinking to do...
Thanks again.


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## Taalib

Kate,

Your doubts about MSA are very common. It is easy to hear the "Why learn MSA? Nobody speaks it, the dialects are hardly intelligible, and people will just make fun of you if you speak it all the time" naysayers and get discouraged. I was trained in Arabic at both American and Arab institutions; and like you I am a Westerner, who approached Arabic with fascination and fear.

My advice is to learn MSA. First, it makes learning dialects much easier. It's a common myth that on the "Arab street" nobody speaks or understands MSA and that the foreigner who doesn't understand dialect might as well be speaking gibberish. In actuality, you'll hear elements of both in all kinds of conversations: "high" politicians in Beirut, Lebanon slip into dialect all the time; "low" cab drivers in Fez, Morocco are often the most eloquent MSA speakers outside the mosque. Dialects may be far from classical Arabic, but it's an exaggeration that nobody will understand you should you only have a year or two training in MSA. In fact, more than most will understand you (remember that formal education in most Arab countries is conducted using MSA).

What's more, the foreigner speaking MSA gets a certain level of respect--or at least acknowledgment--than those that don't speak it. I come from an academic and business background, so I do have a professional bias in my experience. But I have seen very discriminatory treatment of Westerners should they reveal that they don't understand a lick of Arabic, versus those that do grasp it. In my first year struggling with just MSA, I received extraordinary help from everyday people who knew I had no skill in dialect but were impressed that I had embarked on the highest form of Arabic training, and they bent over backwards to help me. 

Finally, there is simply no alternative. It would be nice if major institutions offering MSA training in Western countries also gave dialect training, but many do not. The only way to get any Arabic exposure is, as in your case, do MSA. And it makes logical sense. In my experience, it is easier to "scale down" to the dialects with a solid MSA background, then having to "scale up" and grasp MSA with just exposure to dialects. Typically, when dialects are taught in universities, they are taught in _reference_ to MSA. As in, these conjugations violate these rules; these words derive from these roots; etc.


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## Qcumber

A very long time ago  I attended a summer course in MSA at the Bouguiba Language Institute of Tunis. Students were from all over the world. We were streamed into several levels. The teachers were Tunisians. The one who taught my class was excellent.
We noticed all the Tunisians we met spoke excellent French.
I remember the first time we took the tram to some beach (La Goulette ?). We asked for our tickets in MSA. The conductor thought we were Egyptians. 
Actually our MSA was very elementary, and most Tunisians didn't understand us.


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## terredepomme

Hello, I would like to ask a question regarding this old topic. Considering that the Maghreb people are fluent in both French and MSA, what would they prefer speaking with foreigners? Ideally it would be the Maghreb dialect, but if they had to choose one of these two to speak with a foreigner (that speaks the two at a even level), what would they choose?For example, in Quebec, people prefer that foreigners speak (standard) French rather than English, even if they speak the both perfectly well. Even if Parisian standard French is different from Quebec French, they wish that the foreigners speak it to them because it's the same French, and not English which is just a foreign language to Quebeckers, no matter how fluently they speak it. Is this also the case with Moroccan-Standard Arabic-French?


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## إسكندراني

I think it would vary from one person to the next. Most people mix both MSA and French in with their dialect anyway! What I did is use MSA, and insert French nouns if they misunderstood MSA nouns (nouns are what usually changes bwn MSA and dialects).
For example: هل عندكم شوكة would probably _not_ be understood by a Moroccan,  هل عندكم فورشيت would be even if 'forchette' is not what they use in their dialect. Also I found women can often understand MSA and eastern dialects perfectly, men never can.


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## terredepomme

So using MSA mixed with French is better than using French alltogether?


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## إسكندراني

That is my opinion; unless you are dealing with the 'business class' or at a tourist site.


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## Aloulu

It depends in Tunisia, there is a huge difference between the rural side and bigger cities. In the metropolitan cities such as Tunis (capital), Sfax, Sousse or Bizerte most of the people you meet speak French pretty well. 
However, when you go to the country side there are much more Tunisians who use French much less and in their daily Tunisian dialect as well. My family is from a small village not near to the coastal side and in our dialect you will find 
much less French words used compared to Tunisians from Tunis for example. Our southern dialect is also not very far from Western-Libyan (Tripoli) dialect. We also speak with a "g" (from good) instead of pronouncing the 
Qaaf fully as Tunisians do when they are from one of the bigger cities. 

There is also a shift by the way. Although French will always be the second language in Tunisia I do notice that apart from the ones that already grew up with a strong inclination to French many prefer to learn English.
I have more cousins who speak much better English then French. This is from a rural family and because they prefer English because it's just easier and more useful. But also in touristic area's Tunisians rely more on English then French.
Germans, Eastern Europeans, English mostly speak English when they visit Tunisia. Although the people working in the tourist industry do speak French obviously daily they use English much more to converse with different kinds of tourists.

Many would understand MSA, but probably answer back in Tunisian. Some of them would try to answer as much in MSA as possible.


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## rayloom

terredepomme said:


> Hello, I would like to ask a question regarding this old topic. Considering that the Maghreb people are fluent in both French and MSA, what would they prefer speaking with foreigners? Ideally it would be the Maghreb dialect, but if they had to choose one of these two to speak with a foreigner (that speaks the two at a even level), what would they choose?For example, in Quebec, people prefer that foreigners speak (standard) French rather than English, even if they speak the both perfectly well. Even if Parisian standard French is different from Quebec French, they wish that the foreigners speak it to them because it's the same French, and not English which is just a foreign language to Quebeckers, no matter how fluently they speak it. Is this also the case with Moroccan-Standard Arabic-French?



It's not rare meeting Maghrebins who don't speak French. 
However, given the condition of your question, it's probably better to go with French!
The reason is that as Qcumber has said, you risk not being understood by the natives. NOT because they have a problem understanding MSA, but because they might have a problem understanding your MSA.
I have only ever met students of Arabic here in Paris, many of them by the way, the problem is that, due to phonetic reasons, it was difficult to understand them when they spoke to me in MSA. 
I can relate in also a different manner. When I used to study French (just last year) in a language school, more often than not, I found it really more difficult to understand some of the students when they spoke French, than when my teachers spoke French (even though they spoke faster). The teachers themselves found it really difficult to understand us sometimes, even though we spoke in French (well...OUR French).


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## terredepomme

What do you think the future holds? What language will be the most important in the Maghreb? French, MSA, the local darijas or English?


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## إسكندراني

Darija is not going anywhere and has always been around. But dialects by very nature are unsuited to application in science, administration, and any field where _precise terminology_ is essential.
French is still strong and shall remain so, but it is already much less widespread than, say, a couple of decades ago.
Arabic of the 'modern standard' sort(s) is/are very important in all Arab countries, and is spreading much quicker than - I would claim - any other time in the 'Arab world's' history. I doubt it will displace French in many fields in the forseeable future, however.
English is important in scientific research and business. Doubtless it will grow, and in some schools it is chosen over French (this is very recent though).
But the fact remains that among the vast majority of the population, basic education occurs in MSA, and even if it is not a priority to most people (this is true just as much in most Mashreq countries), it is _the primary official language_ of all the Maghreb, and is understood even if not spoken.


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## terredepomme

> I doubt it will displace French in many fields in the forseeable future


I hope that future soon becomes forseeable! As much as I love the French language, I don't want it to replace other languages in such critical domains.


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## إسكندراني

French is the status quo; it's not that new in the area. It's been the dominant language in these fields for the past two centuries or so, since colonialism got serious.
However, it is important for newcomers to this region in the world to realise that the people there are used to this myriad of languages; a great many people there are happily conversant in their dialect + French + standard Arabic + Amazigh.


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## babosa daltónica

Will French survive in the maghreb and in subsaharan Africa? I'm thinking about learning it for my third language (I speak English and my second language, and love, is Spanish) but I know that Rwanda and Gabon are moving away from the Francophone. What scares me about French's situation in Africa, both in North Africa and in Central/West Africa, is that it is a second language for almost all French speakers. In countries where languages are native languages they won't get replaced. But a second language could get swapped out for another one, such as English.


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## إسكندراني

It's well worth learning anyway, but my position is still that it's firmly embedded as the region's common language (beside Arabic in the north) and in all technical and scientific fields. And in the cultural domain in Algeria.


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## babosa daltónica

Thanks! It's just kind of worrying since a lot of African countries seem to be moving away from French and towards English. The thing is that if a country has a language as it's native, official, language there is literally no chance that all the natives will switch to a new language. (From Spanish to English in latin america, for example) What could happen in Latin America is that everybody learns English as a foreign/second language but all of them will still be native Spanish speakers. In Africa, French isn't a native language except in some isolated parts.


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## Hemza

Don't be scared, I think French is not ready to leave Africa ahahahahah!!! I know that in some African countries, it's used as official language (beside others). So for example, laws, etc are published in both, native language(s) and French. Also, French is a kind of "passport" for long studies, as it shows you went to school, you're educated, a lot of people choose it to learn as second language (at school, just as we choose English in France ^^). The only exception (for North Africa) could be Libya (and to a less extent, Egypt, but I need confirmation), which was an Italian colony, so I don't think French is well known there.

I ask Egyptian people: what about French in Egypt? Is it widespread, or at least, more and more understood by people?


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## babosa daltónica

Yes, French is an official language of MANY African countries but unfortunately only about 10% of the actual population speaks it VERY well in most of them. The Ivory Coast is one notable exception since French is almost a native language in the capital city, which my Ivory Coast friend confirmed to me.  In Rwanda and Gabon English was added and they are trying to remove French for English. 

So even if French is an official language of many African countries, I'm worried that other countries will follow the example of these two countries and take French out of schools. I think that Senegal has done so also.

Once French becomes a fully native language in these countries I wouldn't ever worry about it dying out but as of right now even the Francophonie says that French's survival in Africa is not assured. I hope it survives and that people learn French AND English in addition to their native languages.


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## إسكندراني

French is actually less and less understood in Egypt but you could still get by with it in the main cities of the North - many schools still teach in French, so about half my cousins for example are fluent in French (more so than English), and certain professions such as the legal profession remain tied to the French system through higher education. English is much better for you, though.

Libyans speak no foreign languages on the whole, except the older generation (grandparents) who often know some Italian. Speaking French there may as well be speaking chinese; young people there seem to invariably choose English if they're learning a foreign language. It's only Arabic in Libya, beside Amazigh in parts of the western mountains and minority languages in the south. Excluding expats who returned, of course.


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## tounsi51

Gabon, Cameroon or the 2 Congos are not in North Africa, neither speak Arabic


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