# Don't hustle the hustler.



## Hakunamatata67

Bonjour,

Comment traduire cette traduction "Don't hustle the hustler" ?
Sachant que c'est le slogan du générique pour une série TV d'une femme très active et occupée (donc hustler n'est pas dans le sens arnaqueur).

Merci.


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## Itisi

Il ne faut pas bousculer une...

WR Dictionary: 
*hustler* _n_ (energetic person) type dynamique _nm_
    battant, battante _nm, nf_
   (_péjoratif_) arriviste _nmf_


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## misterk

Hustler, in this expression, means someone who make his way in the world by outsmarting others, by cunning, often by illegal means.  He knows how to get money and is skilled at doing it. (Urban Dictionary)

"Don't hustle the hustler" means don't try to outsmart someone who makes his living by outsmarting others.


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## Itisi

*misterk*, 


Hakunamatata67 said:


> hustler n'est pas dans le sens arnaqueur.





misterk said:


> Hustler, in this expression, means someone who make his way in the world by outsmarting others, by cunning, often by illegal means.  He knows how to get money and is skilled at doing it. (Urban Dictionary)


There are other possible meanings, as indicated in the WR Dictionary, and which are more likely to apply in the context given by *Hakunamatata*...


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## pointvirgule

_Ne cherchez pas noise à une battante_ ?

Beu. On doit pouvoir trouver mieux, mais je pense que c'est l'idée.

(Pour info, c'est la devise d'une des vedettes de _Real Housewives of Beverly Hills_.)


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## Soleil_Couchant

I think misterk's definition is correct though. The point is you can't outsmart someone who outsmarts others. Kind of like La Fontaine's idea "tromper le trompeur" only here it's saying you shouldn't try tricking one who tricks others. Similar to "can't kid a kidder."  Basically you can't use tricks on someone who uses those same tricks themselves, in this case, particular to hustling.  So, don't try to pull a hustle/scam on someone who also scams/hustles others.


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## pointvirgule

But the characters on that show are not really equipped to outsmart anybody...


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## Soleil_Couchant

What show is this though lol? I mean that's what the saying means.


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## pointvirgule

Soleil_Couchant said:


> What show is this though lol?


Named it in #5.


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## Soleil_Couchant

Okay, shh. But I still think it applies. Maybe they fancy themselves as cunning and savvy and street-smart, even cutthroat, or some weird stuff. Or hustling with their money because they're rich... I haven't watched those shows but saw a lot of commercials with much drama and fighting. They're not really "nice" women.  Or maybe it is to try to give the sense of "don't mess with us" ...

Edit: Okay I found this tagline specifically attributed to one person.

Lisa Rinna: "My advice to you: Don't hustle the hustler."

I still see it as a warning, like, don't try to one up me. Or, again, outsmart someone who outsmarts others (particularly regarding money or getting ahead, I'd guess...)


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## Nicomon

Lu - c'est moi qui colore :    





> The Real Housewives of Beverly Hills star Lisa Rinna is a hustler, and makes no apologies for it. For enough money, she'll consider just about anything.
> That includes an offer from a diaper brand, Depends, to be the celebrity spokesperson for their adult product line. How much did she bank for that honor?
> [...] “Lisa was able to get a huge paycheck from Depends, [worth] $2 million. Knowing that she would be teased for years, Lisa made sure she was compensated for it.”


 Source
Je me trompe peut-être, mais comme  RHOBH (je l'apprends) est une émission de télé-réalité, ça me semble plus proche d'_arriviste/opportuniste_ que de _battante_, moi.

Cela dit, je ne suis pas inspirée pour traduire cette "tagline".


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## joelooc

N'essaie pas de doubler un(e) pro.


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## Biguineur

Bonjour
Sinon je propose  "on ne défie pas une battante" . Ou "on ne s'attaque pas à une battante."


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## Soleil_Couchant

Nicomon said:


> Lu - c'est moi qui colore :     Source



Nicomon, thanks for that. To be honest, if I dare correct this article and the show, I feel like "hustler" is the wrong word for her. "Sell-out" comes to mind, as well as "cheap"...other things. But I think calling her a "hustler" makes it seem more cool or bad-ass, though it's not quite right and kind of misguided. That being said, I believe the meaning of the tagline "Don't hustle a hustler" still rests as I explained it. I suppose someone savvy or greedy with money might try warn someone else not to try to get any money out of her ...but that's not really how the saying works, and again, I think she and the show are overestimating how much of a "skilled hustler" she is to me when she really does just sound like a sell-out or opportunist as you said Nicomon.  So what I'm saying is....is Lisa Rinna really a hustler? No. But are they using the tagline as if she is? I think so, to make her sound more bad ass.  When I hear "hustling" I think of savvy criminals on the streets, or I suppose you could go with white collar crime (maybe like the guy in Wolf of Wall Street).  But NOT someone selling their image for a diaper commercial. Haha   she wishes she was a hustler...


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## Nicomon

The article about Lisa Rinna (I corrected my link) is not related to RHOBH, which - I repeat - is a reality show.

My understanding, right or wrong, is that the actress (who I only remember from the soap _Days of Our Lives_)  says that of herself.
I understand the line that I wrote in blue as  « _arriviste_ » : 





> Personne ambitieuse et sans scrupules, prête à tout pour réussir.


More or less that meaning of *hustler*


> an enterprising person determined to succeed; go-getter.


 Which is also _ battant/fonceur_ when used more positively.  

I think you're restricting the word to _swindler_ or something.


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## Josiah Carberry

If you insist that "hustler" is _not_ to be taken in the sense of "arnaqueur", then the phrase "hustle a hustler" makes no sense. "To hustle" as an transitive verb only means "arnaquer", but as an intransitive verb, it almost certainly refers to being a "battant" or the like.


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## Soleil_Couchant

Josiah not sure who you are responding to...as in, can't tell if we're on the same page or not  .. and to the rest, I'm not savvy enough in french to know battant vs arnaqueur. etc. But as a native American speaker the defintion I gave of hustle the hustler is the only one I can think of that makes sense. If it isn't that, what the heck is it supposed to mean? don't go-get the go getter? huh? Don't be opportunistic with an opportunistic person? I stand by the fact that it's trying to make her look tough/ bad ass / savvy / cool even though it's not actually accurately applicable to her situation. It's for the drama. American television. lol. I can't see it as anything else. If it is, then it sailed way over my head or I'm way more out of touch than I thought.  This seems to be trying to fit a round peg into a square hole ...trying to apply a meaning to "hustle the hustler" that isn't there so it accurately fits her. But...to me they adopted a phrase with its already existent meaning and applied it to her/the show, whether appropriate or not, to sound cool.


(Though I do like joelooc's suggestion of "N'essaie pas de doubler un(e) pro" )


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## Josiah Carberry

I am merely responding to those who would understand "hustler" as someone who puts a lot of effort into what they do. With that understanding, "hustle a hustler" makes no sense.


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## Nicomon

*the definition of hustle
*
It seems to me, reading definitions 6 to 12, that the verb used in the transitive form  doesn't only mean « arnaquer ».
What we don't know is whether Lisa Rinna coined/chose the phrase herself, or if the producers of this reality show scripted it for her.

But since I'm not inspired to translate it in context... I wonder what I'm doing on this thread. 

Edit :  I think joelooc's suggestion if "neutral" enough.


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## Topsie

N'essaie pas de (com)battre une battante?


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## Hakunamatata67

Thanks to all of you.
I agree, it's a silly tagline, which really doesn't mean anything. I think I will go with "N'essayez pas de doubler la pro" which fits more with Lisa Rinna


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## JClaudeK

Soleil_Couchant said:


> I'm not savvy enough in french to know battant vs arnaqueur.


"un battant/ une battante" est un qualificatif exclusivement positif,
"un battant" est  tout sauf un "arnaqueur" !


> battant
> *B.−* _SP._ [En parlant d'une pers. p. ex. dans le lang. de la boxe] Sportif, athlète qui aime attaquer, *qui fait preuve de panache*


Maintenant, l'emploi de "un battant" ne se limite plus au domaine sportif.


> Personne très combative et *dynamique*.
> Définitions : battant, battante - Dictionnaire de français Larousse


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## JClaudeK

Hakunamatata67 said:


> I think I will go with "N'essayez pas de doubler la pro" which fits more with Lisa Rinna


peut-être aussi:
"N'essayez pas de la battre sur son propre  terrain !"


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## Chimel

Simplement: "N'essayez pas d'arriver avant une arriviste?" (si _hustler_ doit bien être compris dans ce sens-là)


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## petit1

être plus royaliste que le roi ?


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## Soleil_Couchant

JClaudeK, thanks for explaining 

I know this thread is quietly trying to die but I still just have to wonder if something is getting lost between the English and French here as far as connotation, nuances.  If someone is calling themselves a hustler unable to be hustled by someone else, they're saying they're a bad ass who can't be outsmarted, one-upped, whatever. And again usually with this kind of "hustling" I might think of someone on the streets who started out with nothing but did whatever they could to get rich, get on top, whatever, even if they had to do bad things to get there. it's a matter of staying one step ahead, outsmarting, maybe even cheating/back stabbing, who knows. So while all that sounds "negative"...overall it's "positive" in the sense that it makes you look "hardcore," awesome, cool, bad ass. Jay-Z has a "can't out hustle a hustler, can't out play a playa" line in one of his rap songs as an example. Another example, if I were to say "damn no one can stop my hustlin you better check yourself around me" someone would laugh because I am not hardcore or hip or street savvy or anything and it would seem like I was trying to come across as tough and edgy, though I'm not. That's why Lisa Rinna using it here seems like an eye-roll moment for me, for sure.  So yes, it is silly and stupid.

Ps. With all due respect intended, Nicomon, I'm not sure why you keep emphasizing that it is a reality television show_ ... _are you purposefully being ironic or tongue in cheek? Because most reality tv shows are heavily scripted and everything is done to incite the most drama as possible...starting fights, starting conflicts, anything and everything to make it the most dramatic as possible for higher ratings. It gets annoying. I would prefer reality shows to be a little more "real" and less focus on drama, fighting, tantrums, conflict. In any case. That might indeed be your point. But to me that's why using an overly dramatic/silly "hustle the hustler" for a bunch of rich housewives to me is in fitting with reality tv...overly bucket-stirring for ratings...   (and no, she definitely didn't coin the phrase... and yes, probably the producers picked it for her)


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## joelooc

And that's what we call mettre les points sur les i - traduction - Dictionnaire Français-Anglais WordReference.com


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## Chimel

Soleil_Couchant said:


> If someone is calling themselves a hustler unable to be hustled by someone else, they're saying they're a bad ass who can't be outsmarted, one-upped, whatever. And again usually with this kind of "hustling" I might think of someone on the streets who started out with nothing *but did whatever they could to get rich, get on top, whatever, even if they had to do bad things to get there*. it's a matter of staying one step ahead, outsmarting, maybe even cheating/back stabbing, who knows. So while all that sounds "negative"...overall it's "positive" in the sense that it makes you look "hardcore," awesome, cool, bad ass.


Then _arriviste_ and _opportuniste_ definitely seem to be the closest translations - without the positive nuance you point out, but this may be a matter of culture : US culture values personal success in life, even if it achieved by this kind of "bad things" whereas we don't have this idea "it's not very nice, but it is eventually offset by success". Or we have to say _battant_, but then witout the negative nuance.

You cannot have a language say something  which is unknown in its culture...


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## Soleil_Couchant

joelooc ... 

And Chimel, voilà...I think you hit the nail on the head (as we say?).... That's probably the "nuance" that was getting lost and why this thread and the suggestions just weren't making sense.  The positive vs negative thing varying from culture to culture. For sure in America it IS considered awesome, bad ass, hard core, tough, cool to be "on top" even if you had to be ruthless or unethical a little to get there. I mean, more peaceful people here would suggest that's not the best way to be, but even still, there is a "cool" edge to it. Like someone who is "big pimpin" might be "admirable" in some circles.  So yes, perhaps the francophone countries aren't as Machiavellian as we are here   and why the positive/negative thing was getting lost. No it's not like she's bragging about being a serial killer or something creepy/obviously negative.  But here bragging about hustlin and street crime and being king on top (which could be in the 'white collar' world too like I said, the guy in Wolf of Wall Street or something) and all that would be considered 'cool', and apparently that seems to be how Lisa (or the show) are trying to make her come across.  I think with "hustling" in the way I'm talking about, there is a sense of "doing what you need to do to survive" and then if you are particularly bad ass, that would extend into getting ahead, getting on top, getting rich... so perhaps the "do what you need to survive" part is the 'admirable' thing in our culture...being tough and getting ahead. And in this more "looking out for myself" mindset, being the one to make the first strike instead of being the one to _get_ abused/taken advantage of _is_ how you survive (particularly in a difficult situation) and eventually is often how you get ahead.  Something like that.  But there you go, it seems you narrowed down what the missing piece was as far as the disconnect I was seeing.


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## Nicomon

Soleil_Couchant said:


> Ps. With all due respect intended, Nicomon, I'm not sure why you keep emphasizing that it is a reality television show_ ... _are you purposefully being ironic or tongue in cheek?


 Well you see... I don't ever listen to reality shows. So no, I wasn't purposely being ironic. I very naively thought that those shows were only partly scripted.    





> (and no, she definitely didn't coin the phrase... and yes, probably the producers picked it for her)


 Touché! "coin" was a wrong choice of words.  Of course Lisa R. didn't coin the phrase, and neither did the producers script it as I also wrote without thinking twice.
What I don't know fore sure is whether the producers picked it for her or if the actresses have a say and get to choose their own taglines.

And you know what?  At this point, I don't care.  I should have gotten off this thread long before. But since I'm still here, I'll add a few lines. 

If a woman who among other things made the Playboy cover while 7 months pregnant, and accepted to be the celebrity spokesperson of _Depends_
for a nearly 2 million dollar paycheck isn't an _arriviste/opportuniste_ (see the definition quoted in post #15) then I don't know who is.

As read googling.  Emphasis mine. 





> As we all know, Lisa Rinna, star of The Real Housewives of Beverly Hills, *is a self-proclaimed hustler, always eager to make a buck*.





> @ lisarinna (I added a space after @ so the direct link wouldn't show) changed their bio 1 year ago
> *Bio*
> Actress, Host, NY Times Best Selling Author, Wife of Harry Hamlin, Mother of two beauties, designer of the Lisa Rinna Collection on QVC! *& all around Hustler*



Thank you Chimel.  We seem to think the same way.  

And I maintain that I like joelooc's suggestion for an adapt' :  _N'essaie pas de doubler une/la pro. _


> _Pop._ *Doubler qqn. *Le tromper, l'induire en erreur pour en tirer profit.


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## Soleil_Couchant

I feel like I'm talking out loud to myself on this thread, and either I'm not being understood or very likely I'm just in my own bubble of not understanding what anyone else is saying. I don't know. But yeah, I appreciated when you posted her bio before because like I said, I think she fancies herself a hustler when I think that's an exaggerated term for her. Okay, maybe she sells out and "hustles" for money. But as several other (US English-natives) pointed out, the phrase "hustle a hustler" doesn't make sense just in the sense of earning money or being a go-getter. So I still think they were bastardizing or somewhat misusing the phrase to apply to her. I don't know. The article I found on it, the person writing it even gave an "eye roll" type of reaction to that tagline. They said like "uh, okay" after it.  And look, here's another one and I will quote what they say below...to show I'm not just on an insane rant of my own...  They are basically sharing the EXACT SAME sentiment as I have been repeatedly beating to a pulp on this thread, haha!! And use the same kind of definition as misterk stated way up above at the get go.

"The 'Real Housewives Of Beverly Hills' Season 7 Taglines Are Already Trying To Prove Something"

*"Lisa Rinna: "My Advice To You: Don't Hustle The Hustler.*

*But wait a second, let's dive into the logic here for a second, because I can't not. Is she considering herself a hustler? Because this phrase is supposed to be used when you are a schemer of sorts, and you're encouraging other people not to try to pull schemes on you. It's like shading yourself so that nobody else tries to shade you. And now... I've fallen down a rabbit hole of wondering if Lisa Rinna is super smart and put that together so that she was unshade-able, or if she just wanted to call herself a hustler and the rest went over her head. My brain hurts, bring back the lips references."

*
Edit: And that's another point I've been trying to make...I feel like people are trying to translate this into a sense making way in French, as if in English it really fits for Lisa Rinna, when what others have been pointing out is that, whether it makes sense about her or not, the saying is in reference to not being able to outsmart/outplay/outscheme someone who does those things themselves. So, in English, it doesn't apply to her very well, however, that is the saying they chose. For better or worse.


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## Nicomon

For the record... I had already read that article.   

And whether or not she or the producer is bastardizing/misusing the phrase (I think you've made that clear) doesn't change the fact that Hakunamatata
- who also thinks it's a silly tagline - needed to translate it in context.   

Translators cannot rewrite a text or script to then translate it.  So, we need to adapt in a way that "fits".

I'm officially off this thread and this time, I mean it.


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## Soleil_Couchant

Okay. I just think the meaning/essence of something explained and agreed on by the native speakers is not the point that should have been argued on here (as it was by several), whether it seemed appropriate or not. I'm sure the original poster assumed it would or should make sense based on the show persona but it doesn't exactly. This was difficult to translate but not because we were explaining the English wrong, but because it was an odd phrase to use for her even in english ...and maybe that disparity/discrepency itself (the outrageousness of it) should be reflected in the French translation too, if the point is to stay true to the english. Not trying to make it make sense bc it doesn't in english either.  But I do get chimel's point that culturally in french that saying doesn't exist...however an equivalent using the idea of a shady outsmarting person should be used if the point is to keep that same idea. Or...between languages sometimes things get drastically changed, I know, when  nothing equal applies...maybe that strategy would work better here too rather than trying to make something work that doesn't with a more literal translation.

I also think jeanclaudek's suggestion could work too although it's not capturing the money seeking part...it's close to the idea.


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