# Italian bene



## Riverplatense

Hi to all!

Maybe I'm just committing a silly error in reasoning, but I can't explain myself why BĔNE developed to _bene _and not _*biene_ in Italian. It's a short stressed Latin [ɛ] in an open syllable, just like in PĔ-DEM, SĔ-RUM, VĔ-NIT etc., which developed to _piede_, _siero_, _viene_. So why didn't BĔ-NE? I don't know of any Tuscan text, dialectal or historical, showing *_biene _or *_bien_.


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## swindaff

Such an interesting question.
At first I thought it was a matter of accent (I say "bène", so open "e", but "piéde", "siéro" and "viéni", so closed vowels). But then I realized this cannot be an explanation (although it would have made sense to me) because this is not "standard Italian", but just the way people speak in my region.


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## bearded

Just a hypothesis (that may well be absurd, as I have no sources): in Latin, the adjective _bonus _had a diminutive _bellus _(from *duenus >duen(u)lus), and the adverb 'bene' might have developed from both adjectives, like a ''contamination'': *duene/duenle.  Consequently, perhaps the first e was originally not in an open syllable.


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## danielstan

If in Latin the first _e_ in _bene _would have been pronounced different than what we expect, the Romance languages would have inherited a special treatment for it, which seems to not be the case:
lat. _bene _> it. _bene_, fr. _bien_, sp. _biene_, pg. _bem_, rom. _bine_
lat. _tenet _> it._ lui tiene_, fr._ il tient_, sp. _él tiene_, pg. -,  rom. _el ține_
lat. _venit _> it. _lui viene_, fr. _il vient_, sp. _él viene_, pg. _ele vem_, rom. _el vine_

I guess we could find more examples where the Latin group _ene/eni _is treated in the same manner in each Romance language, while the exception remains it. _bene _(vs. it. _tiene_, _viene_)

So, probably the explanation is a special development inside Italian language (I am not competent in this; some linguists may solve the problem by finding some medieval sources with this special treatment for bene...).

A hypothesis (that may be absurd, as well): Medieval Latin used in catholic church had _bene _in words like _benedictum_, which could have influence the vernacular pronunciation of a *_biene _> _bene_.


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## Cenzontle

Is there any evidence in early Italian of the adverb "bene" being used frequently to modify an *adjective*?  
That might have been a context in which it was not *stressed*.
This is just a whim on my part—do with it what you will.


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## berndf

Cenzontle said:


> Is there any evidence in early Italian of the adverb "bene" being used frequently to modify an *adjective*?
> That might have been a context in which it was not *stressed*.
> This is just a whim on my part—do with it what you will.


This is one of the theory (for _bene_ and _nove_) in the literature. But this theory is not generally accepted. The counter argument is that it there is no indication _bene_ was rare in pre-pausal positions. See _The Oxford Guide to the Romance Languages_, p 651.


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## merquiades

Cenzontle said:


> Is there any evidence in early Italian of the adverb "bene" being used frequently to modify an *adjective*?
> That might have been a context in which it was not *stressed*.
> This is just a whim on my part—do with it what you will.


I believe that _bene _does modify adjectives, but in this case is shortened to _ben_ before an adjective.  _Ben arrivato_, _ben tornato_.   Correct me if I'm wrong, Italians?


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## bearded

merquiades said:


> I believe that _bene _does modify adjectives, but in this case is shortened to _ben_ before an adjective.  _Ben arrivato_, _ben tornato_.   Correct me if I'm wrong, Italians?


You are not wrong. It can also modify adjectives that are not originally participles: _egli era ben orgoglioso _(he was quite proud).


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## berndf

merquiades said:


> I believe that _bene _does modify adjectives, but in this case is shortened to _ben_ before an adjective.  _Ben arrivato_, _ben tornato_.   Correct me if I'm wrong, Italians?


As I said, this whole argument is based on the assumption that at the time the diphthongization occurred, _bene _was rare in pre-pausal position (today its obviously isn't; it occurs, e.g., in the frequent expression _va bene_). This assumption seems to be unfounded (see the reference above).


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## francisgranada

merquiades said:


> I believe that _bene _does modify adjectives, but in this case is shortened to _ben_ before an adjective.  _Ben arrivato_, _ben tornato_...


Bearded has already answered your question, I only would like to add that the from the point of view of our discussion this _ben_ in your examples tends to loose the stress. See e.g. _benvenuto_, where _ben _+ _venuto _are even written together as _ben-_ doesn't bear the stress (it rather behaves as a "kind of prefix"). 





berndf said:


> As I said, this whole argument is based on the assumption that at the time the diphthongization occurred, _bene _was rare in pre-pausal position ...


I agree. Nevertheless I read an explanation/hypothesis  (many times ago, so now I'm not able to provide you the source) that in the past both the forms coexisted  (i.e. the unstressed _ben _and the stressed _biene_, and during the later evolution _biene  _"re-aligned" to _bene _under the influence of the unstressed _ben[e]. _I am not able to decide if this hypothesis is right or not, however see for example the Spanish _b*ie*n _and _b*e*ndecir. _(Well, _bendecir _perhaps may also be considered a _semicultismo ..._).

Question 1: Is there any  evidence for the existence of the form _b*ie*ne _in Italian  written documents (Tuscan or whatever regional language)?

Question 2: In the pronunciation of the discussed word _bene _by native Bolognese people, I've sometimes (rather rarely) heard a tendency of the diphthogization of the stressed _e_, i.e. quasi pronounced  _biene_. Is it only my subjective impression or there is some linguistical explanation (e.g. regional influence)?

P.S. I am not able to open _The Oxford Guide to the Romance Languages_, p 651.


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## Sardokan1.0

danielstan said:


> If in Latin the first _e_ in _bene _would have been pronounced different than what we expect, the Romance languages would have inherited a special treatment for it, which seems to not be the case:
> lat. _bene _> it. _bene_, fr. _bien_, sp. _biene_, pg. _bem_, rom. _bine_
> lat. _tenet _> it._ lui tiene_, fr._ il tient_, sp. _él tiene_, pg. -,  rom. _el ține_
> lat. _venit _> it. _lui viene_, fr. _il vient_, sp. _él viene_, pg. _ele vem_, rom. _el vine_
> 
> I guess we could find more examples where the Latin group _ene/eni _is treated in the same manner in each Romance language, while the exception remains it. _bene _(vs. it. _tiene_, _viene_)



In Sardinian and Corsican languages this developement from E to IE is totally absent.
_
lat. bene > Sar. bene - Cor. bé, bene
lat. tenet > Sar. issu tenet - Cor. ellu tene
lat. venit > Sar. issu benit - Cor. ellu vene
_
Italian : _fieno, piede, siero, miele, pietra, fiele_
Sardinian : _fenu, pé/pede, soru, mele, pedra, fele_
Corsican : _fenu, pede, seru, mele, petra, fele_

Same thing for the developement O to UO, present in Italian. Totally absent in Sardinian, and also in Corsican.

Italian : _ruota, fuoco, fuori, suono, buono, scuola, luogo, tuono_
Sardinian : _roda, fogu, fora, sonu, bonu, iscola, logu, tronu_
Corsican : _rota, focu, fora, sonu, bonu, scola, locu, tonu_


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## swindaff

Sardokan1.0 said:


> In Sardinian and Corsican languages this developement from E to IE is totally absent.
> _
> lat. bene > Sar. bene
> lat. tenet > Sar. issu tenet
> lat. venit > Sar. issu benit
> _
> Italian : _fieno, piede, siero, miele, pietra, fiele_
> Sardinian : _fenu, pé/pede, soru, mele, pedra, fele_
> Corsican : _fenu, pede, seru, mele, petra, fele_
> 
> Same thing for the developement O to UO, present in Italian. Totally absent in Sardinian, and also in Corsican.
> 
> Italian : _ruota, fuoco, fuori, suono, buono, scuola, luogo, tuono_
> Sardinian : _roda, fogu, fora, sonu, bonu, iscola, logu, tronu_
> Corsican : _rota, focu, fora, sonu, bonu, scola, locu, tonu_



Same in Neapolitan! But I guess it's because it is very very close to Spanish.


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## Sardokan1.0

Al.ba said:


> Same in Neapolitan! But I guess it's because it is very very close to Spanish.



I think in this case Sardinian, Corsican, and Neapolitan kept a conservative feature of Latin, if I remember correctly Spanish in this case is more or less similar to Italian.

Italian : _fieno, piede, siero, miele, pietra, fiele_
_Spanish : heno, pie, suero, miel, piedra, hiel

Italian : ruota, fuoco, fuori, suono, buono, scuola, luogo, tuono
Spanish : rueda, fuego, fuera, sueno, bueno, escuela, lugar, trueno_


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## swindaff

Sardokan1.0 said:


> I think in this case Sardinian, Corsican, and Neapolitan kept a conservative feature of Latin/QUOTE]



Yes, this kind of phenomenon is analysed by Bartoli's "linguistica areale". Maybe you heard about it.
But I'm afraid it may be off topic right now.


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## Riverplatense

Thanks to all for the interesting answers!



francisgranada said:


> Question 1: Is there any evidence for the existence of the form _b*ie*ne _in Italian written documents (Tuscan or whatever regional language)?



I doubt that there is. Unfortunately, TLIO doesn't have an article with this lemma. Northern Italian findings could be interesting, for they also underwent romance diphthongisation, while in Southern dialects there is, as also Al.ba and Sardokan stated, either no diphthongisation or its due to metaphony. However, I think the use of apocoped _ben _is more frequent (thus, the vowel is in a closed syllable), and in Northern texts you also have to bear the general apocope in mind, already in Bonvesin etc.

By the way, I've now consulted Devoto's _Avviamento alla etimologia italiana_, where the quoted explanation is referred as well — and *_biene_ is marked as merely hypothetical form.


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## Sardokan1.0

Just a clarification, Sardinian is not a dialect of Italian but a separate language totally disconnected from the linguistic continuum of the Italian peninsula. For its features Sardinian lies in the middle between Iberian and Italic languages, but it's separated from both groups because of its archaic and conservative features.


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## merquiades

francisgranada said:


> Bearded has already answered your question, I only would like to add that the from the point of view of our discussion this _ben_ in your examples tends to loose the stress. See e.g. _benvenuto_, where _ben _+ _venuto _are even written together as _ben-_ doesn't bear the stress (it rather behaves as a "kind of prefix").


Good observation, yet this didn't keep Spanish from keeping the diphthong in all cases:  _Bienvenidos_.  Same for French:  _Bienvenu_


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## swindaff

Sardokan1.0 said:


> Just a clarification, Sardinian is not a dialect of Italian but a separate language.


Same for Neapolitan (again)!


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## Sardokan1.0

francisgranada said:


> Bearded has already answered your question, I only would like to add that the from the point of view of our discussion this _ben_ in your examples tends to loose the stress. See e.g. _benvenuto_, where _ben _+ _venuto _are even written together as _ben-_ doesn't bear the stress (it rather behaves as a "kind of prefix").



As usually in Sardinian language(s) the evolution has taken a different direction.

central-northern Sardinian (Logudorese/Nuorese) : Béne bénnidos or Béne 'énnidos
southern Sardinian (Campidanese) : Béni beníus

The stress on many Sardinian verbs lies in a different position if compared to Italian (bénnere=veníre, bídere=vedére, ténnere=tenére, sétzere/séere=sedére, pódere=potére, mórrere=moríre, etc.etc.)


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## Riverplatense

Sardokan1.0 said:


> Just a clarification, Sardinian is not a dialect of Italian [...]



Of course, yes, sorry! This was a very imprecise (or actually just wrong) formulation of mine (even if some features mentioned are disputable in my view, ). I wanted to say that the romance idioms south of Tuscany and Umbria spoken in Italy don't share the diphthongisation of standard Italian. [That's due to my general tendential disinterest in this distinction, even if, of course, there's no legitimacy to call Sardinian an Italian dialect.]


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## Parmenid

berndf said:


> This is one of the theory (for _bene_ and _nove_) in the literature.


 could you show to us what are the other theories?


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## berndf

The two cases are discussed in length at the location I referred to in #6. I don't have access to the book right now. Maybe you can take a look.


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## Lusus Naturae

Is e>ie much more often seen in Spanish than in Italian?
(like tiempo, tierra, and even borrowed words like pielago)


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## Testing1234567

Yes. According to Vowel breaking - Wikipedia:



> The Vulgar Latin open vowels e /ɛ/ and o /ɔ/ in stressed position underwent breaking only in open syllables in French and Italian, but in both open and closed syllables in Spanish.



T*E*M.PVS > tempo (it.) / tiempo (es.)
T*E*R.RAM > terra (it.) / tierra (es.)


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