# Et qui semel ob utilitatem aliorum



## KsSp

Hello. 
Here is another piece from Origen. 
'Et qui semel ob utilitatem aliorum ad liberorum opera descenderit et se voluerit huic ministerio mancipare, obsecret Deum, ut talis ei filius ingrediatur saeculum, super cuius nativitate lactior sit.'
It seems to mean something like the following:
'And when a person decides to beget children for the benefit of other people and devotes himself eagerly to it, he must pray to God and ask that every his son entering this world could be like John and that his birth would bring joy'. 
The context: Origen is talking about the birth of John the Baptist. 
It does make sense, but since Latin grammar is still very confusing, could you please comment on the meaning of the sentence? 
Thank you.


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## bearded

Hello
Better experts than myself will hopefully comment. But meanwhile please let me know:
_...super cuius nativitate lactior sit_ : isn't it by chance _super cuius nativitate*m* la*e*tior sit_?


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## KsSp

bearded said:


> Hello
> Better experts than myself will hopefully comment. But meanwhile please let me know:
> _...super cuius nativitate lactior sit_ : isn't it by chance _super cuius nativitate*m* la*e*tior sit_?


Buona sera, bearded! In our version, it is really 'laetior', so you were right - thank you! But still it is 'nativitate', without 'm' at the end of the word.


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## bearded

OK, as a matter of fact the preposition 'super' can also be constructed with ablative (nativitate): my fault.
I would say that your overall translation is correct, just some minor changes would be necessary in my view:
..._he should ask God that such a son would be born to him, in whose birth he might rejoice._
( No mention of John in the Latin text you quoted). 'Obsecret' is an adhortative subjunctive, hence my ''he should''. 'Laetior' literally means ''happier/rather happy'': I have omitted this comparative in translation.  Your ''every his son..'' seems to be an excessively free translation to me),
but please wait for opinions from real experts!


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## KsSp

bearded said:


> OK, as a matter of fact the preposition 'super' can also be constructed with ablative (nativitate): my fault.
> I would say that your overall translation is correct, just some minor changes would be necessary in my view:
> ..._he should ask God that such a son would be born to him, in whose birth he might rejoice._
> ( No mention of John in the Latin text you quoted). 'Obsecret' is an adhortative subjunctive, hence my ''he should''. 'Laetior' literally means ''happier/rather happy'': I have omitted this comparative in translation.  Your ''every his son..'' seems to be an excessively free translation to me),
> but please wait for opinions from real experts!


Thank you, bearded!


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## bearded

You are welcome!


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## Scholiast

saluete, KsPs, bearded _et al_.

There are several Latin prepositions which may take either accusative or ablative, of which (as bearded in # 5 has remarked), _super_ is one. In the best classical Latin the chief difference is whether the entity described is in motion (accusative) or stationary (ablative). So (for example) _sub arbore_ = 'Under the tree [lay an apple]', whereas in a military contect, _sub moenia_ = 'up to the walls [from underneath]' refers to the advance of besieging troops attacking a town or encampment. (_in_ and _inter_ function similarly, and there are others).

I have a suspicion that by Jerome's time the distinction may have 'melted' a little, even among educated users of Latin. I seem to remember, but cannot quite remember where, that there is a passage of Quintilian (who knew his Latin grammar and syntax inside out) that makes reference to this (minor) ambiguity.

And for a full understanding of this passage, I would welcome a little more context please.

Σ


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## KsSp

Hello, Scholiast and bearded! 
Here is some more context: Origen is talking about the birth of John the Baptist and provides the example of Jacob, who was the father of twelve sons who were great, as an example of a saint all the deeds of whom were worth praising. And so he [Origen] says that just as Jacob's sons made him rejoice, so did John's birth made everyone rejoice.


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