# Allophonic variants of the uvular "r" in various languages



## Youngfun

*Moderator note: Cut from here.*

My ear can hardly distinguish sounds not present neither in Chinese nor in Italian, and for me all the French R's (Paris accent) sound like /h/'s.
When a French girl from Paris named _Laura_ presented herself, I started calling her ['loha]


----------



## merquiades

Youngfun said:


> My ear can hardly distinguish sounds not present neither in Chinese nor in Italian, and for me all the French R's (Paris accent) sound like /h/'s.
> When a French girl from Paris named _Laura_ presented herself, I started calling her ['loha]



But what about the _Erre moscia_ in Northern Italy?  Can you imitate that?


----------



## Youngfun

There are two main kinds of _erre moscia_ in Italy.
I think you are talking about what we call _R francese_. But I still think that it's a little different from French-Parisian R.
Maybe the Italian erre moscia is more voiced, but I'm not sure. But it doesn't have the aspirate sensation of the French R, it doesn't sound like a /h/ at all.
My mom used to joke saying that when pronouncing the French R, you are preparing to spit the snot from the throat. 

Also, Brasilian Portuguese changed the initial R/double RR sound from the French pronounciation to /h/. So maybe I'm not the only one who considers them similar.


----------



## merquiades

Youngfun said:


> There are two main kinds of _erre moscia_ in Italy.
> I think you are talking about what we call _R francese_. But I still think that it's a little different from French-Parisian R.
> Maybe the Italian erre moscia is more voiced, but I'm not sure. But it doesn't have the aspirate sensation of the French R, it doesn't sound like a /h/ at all.
> My mom used to joke saying that when pronouncing the French R, you are preparing to spit the snot from the throat.



Unless you are trying to imitate Édith Piaf, there is no need to spit the snot from your throat.  The R is stronger in Belgium but generally French R is a weak guttural fricative, not an aspiration like H. It comes from the same area as /g/.

Listen and see if you can hear the difference between these:  /ʁ/ ans /h/.  It also explains how to make the sounds


----------



## Erick404

Youngfun said:


> Also, Brasilian Portuguese changed the initial R/double RR sound from the French pronounciation to /h/. So maybe I'm not the only one who considers them similar.



Yes, I can vouche that for most brazilians. I often find the H's and R's in German sounding the same.

<...>


----------



## berndf

Erick404 said:


> Yes, I can vouche that for most brazilians. I often find the H's and R's in German sounding the same.


Initial r-h mistakes are frequent with Brazilian speakers. They are _very_ conspicuous for native speakers; more so in German than in French as German was minimal pairs relying on the distinguishably of /h/ and /ʁ/ (e.g. _hing_ vs. _Ring_); there are also minimal pairs based on /x/-/ʁ/ distinguishably (e.g. _Bachen _vs. _Barren_). Non of them are likely to be confused; both phonemic contrasts are rather strong.


----------



## Ben Jamin

For me the rr sound in Brazilian and g sound in Spanish 'hago' don't sound alike at all. Confusing any of them with /h/ is even more difficult to swallow.


----------



## Youngfun

merquiades said:


> Unless you are trying to imitate Édith Piaf


I searched videos of her, to my ears her R's sound like thrills or flaps... 



merquiades said:


> Listen and see if you can hear the difference between these:  /ʁ/ ans /h/.  It also explains how to make the sounds


Thank you very much , especially for the link about /ʁ/!
This is indeed very similar to [one kind of] Italian _erre moscia_.
But Wikipedia says:


> Selon le locuteur, [ʁ] peut être remplacé par [χ], [ʀ], [x], [ɣ], [r] ou [ɾ]. Ce phénomène s'appelle variation allophonique.


I think [χ] (voiceless version of [ʁ]) and [x] (wow! even this sound!) are the sounds I heard; to my ear they sound aspirated... they are like /h/ but pronounced with the throat.

<...>



Ben Jamin said:


> For me the rr sound in Brazilian and g sound in Spanish 'hago' don't sound alike at all. Confusing any of them with /h/ is even more difficult to swallow.


But isn't Brazilian rr pronounced /h~x/ in Southeast region? Which Brasilian dialect did you learn?


----------



## berndf

Youngfun said:


> I searched videos of her, to my ears her R's sound like thrills or flaps...


Trilled. You can trill the uvular "r" too, not only the alveolar one. The IPA sign for the trilled version of [ʁ] is [ʀ]. In everyday French and German [ʀ] is very rare. It usually occurs in emphatic speech or in screaming.


Youngfun said:


> I think [χ] (voiceless version of [ʁ]) and [x] (wow! even this sound!) are the sounds I heard; to my ear they sound aspirated... they are like /h/ but pronounced with the throat.


Contrary to the German [ʁ], the French [ʁ] can be partially de-voiced without creating confusion because there is no /x/~/χ/ phoneme in French. A fully de-voiced /ʁ/ is very rare. In German partial de-voicing  of /ʁ/ is theoretically possible in word-initial position because /x/ (realized [ɣ], [x] or [χ]) is phonologically impossible in this position.


----------



## Erick404

Ben Jamin said:


> For me the rr sound in Brazilian and g sound in Spanish 'hago' don't sound alike at all. Confusing any of them with /h/ is even more difficult to swallow.



Most brazilian speakers, myself included, pronounce the RR exactly as . There are some who pronounce it as [x] or [r], but they are minorities.

The syllable final R in Brazilian Portuguese is more interesting, though, in the regions that aspirate it. Its pronounciation ranges from simple omission to , [x] and [χ], depending on how slow and emphatically one speaks. I believe [ɣ] and [ʁ] occur too, but I can't distinguish them.


----------



## merquiades

Youngfun said:
			
		

> I searched videos of her, to my ears her R's sound like thrills or flaps...



Search  Edith Piaf - La Foule - Paroles (Lyrics).  This with give you a song with a plethora of strong uvular R's.

This strong uvular R is also possible in Portuguese (Lisboeta type at least).  I remember a lady asking me for "uma relatoria" once.

Anyway I hope you are appreciating the difference with /h/.



> Selon le locuteur, [ʁ] peut être remplacé par [χ], [ʀ], [x], [ɣ], [r] ou [ɾ]. Ce phénomène s'appelle variation allophonique.



In theory they exist but I think only [ʁ] or maybe [ɣ] are common in everyday speech.   [χ] is an assimilation after /k/:  Je crois, J'ai cru.


----------



## berndf

merquiades said:


> In theory they exist but I think only [ʁ] or maybe [ɣ] are common in everyday speech.   [χ] is an assimilation after /k/:  Je crois, J'ai cru.


IF you mean [χ]~[x] I am with you. But this is not the only place where it can occur. I think, a certain tendency for final devoicing still exists. The pronunciation of _croire _by arnaud here is [kχoɐʁə] and by fowl [kχoɐx].


----------



## tFighterPilot

In Hebrew ר is never pronounced as [χ], it's always voiced. It's usually pronounced [ʁ], but if someone would pronounce it [ɣ] it would sound natural as well. [ʀ] is physically hard to pronounce, that's why it's rare. Someone who isn't used to hearing uvular approximates might not even hear it and thus confuse it with /h/ (which is often not pronounced in Hebrew).


----------



## berndf

tFighterPilot said:


> In Hebrew ר is never pronounced as [χ], it's always voiced.


..., because, as in German, there is a phonemic contrast with /χ/.


----------



## Hulalessar

berndf said:


> both phonemic contrasts are rather strong.



What is a strong phonemic contrast for the speaker of one language may be a barely perceptible allophonic variation for the speaker of another language.


----------



## Youngfun

merquiades said:


> In theory they exist but I think only [ʁ] or maybe [ɣ] are common in everyday speech.   [χ] is an assimilation after /k/:  Je crois, J'ai cru.


... and also after /t, p/, I guess.
Those [kχ], [tχ], [pχ] are often misunderstood as aspirate plosives [kʰ], [tʰ], [pʰ] by the Chinese.

But I think that I hear this [χ] very often in syllable coda position too.

Occasionaly, perhaps only in some speakers, even in intervocalic position.
I've searched "parole" on forvo.com. For example take these two speakers: manquer de parole* and prise de parole.*
I think the "r" in "parole" is pronounced as a normal [ʁ] by the first speaker, but as a [χ] by the second one.

*Links authorized by bernd.


----------



## berndf

Youngfun said:


> I've searched "parole" on forvo.com. For example take these two speakers: manquer de parole* and prise de parole.*
> I think the "r" in "parole" is pronounced as a normal [ʁ] by the first speaker, but as a [χ] by the second one.


You are right.


----------



## berndf

This (_porte-parole_) is a good example of partial and full de-voicing. The first "r" (_po*r*te-parole_) is fully and the second (_porte-pa*r*ole_) partly de-voiced, i.e. voicing starts in the middle of the sound, i.e. [paχʁɔl]. While the partially de-voiced "r" remains identifiable as an "r" in any context, the first wort in isolation is only identifiable as as "r" if you know it is French. Not knowing it is French, a German speaker would probably hear "bochde" which would then be identified as a funny pronunciation of "pochte" (past singular of the verb "pochen").


----------



## merquiades

Youngfun said:
			
		

> I've searched "parole" on forvo.com. For example take these two speakers: manquer de parole* and prise de parole.*
> I think the "r" in "parole" is pronounced as a normal [ʁ] by the first speaker, but as a [χ] by the second one.



I'd agree.  For the second one it might be significant that the speaker is Dutch, not French?



			
				Berndf said:
			
		

> This (porte-parole) is a good example of partial and full de-voicing. The first "r" (porte-parole) is fully and the second (porte-parole) partly de-voiced, i.e. voicing starts in the middle of the sound, i.e. [paχʁɔl]. While the partially de-voiced "r" remains identifiable as an "r" in any context, the first wort in isolation is only identifiable as as "r" if you know it is French. Not knowing it is French, a German speaker would probably hear "bochde" which would then be identified as a funny pronunciation of "pochte" (past singular of the verb "pochen").



I keep listening to the speaker and both r's sound voiced to me.  What I can't decide on is if it's [ʁ] or [ɣ].  Otherwise standard Parisian.


----------



## berndf

merquiades said:


> I keep listening to the speaker and both r's sound voiced to me.  What I can't decide on is if it's [ʁ] or [ɣ].  Otherwise standard Parisian.


Try to switch on your Spanish and not your French brain and listen to the first word only thinking of it as being spelled "pojte". If your are used to hearing French every day, as you and I are, you start ignoring such thing just as the French do themselves. But it is really totally unmistakable.

The partially unvoiced [ʁ] you can only detect with wave-analyser or you have to have a _very_ well trained ear in such thing, which I haven't.


----------



## Youngfun

berndf said:


> This (_porte-parole_) is a good example of partial and full de-voicing. The first "r" (_po*r*te-parole_) is fully and the second (_porte-pa*r*ole_)  partly de-voiced, i.e. voicing starts in the middle of the sound, i.e.  [paχʁɔl]. [...]


Agree .



berndf said:


> [...] "bochde" which would then be identified as a  funny pronunciation of "pochte" (past singular of the verb  "pochen").


Or maybe Austrian pronunciation?  (and most Romance language speakers learning German)



merquiades said:


> I'd agree.  For the second one it might be significant that the speaker is Dutch, not French?
> I keep listening to the speaker and both r's sound voiced to me.  What I  can't decide on is if it's [ʁ] or [ɣ].  Otherwise standard  Parisian.


Or maybe a francophone woman living in Dutch? Can you detect if she is native French speaker os has foreign accent?
But there are other examples too:
prendre la parole
I think it's indeed in Paris where I hear the de-voicing more often...



berndf said:


> Try to switch on your Spanish and not your French brain and listen to the first word only thinking of it as being spelled "pojte". If your are used to hearing French every day, as you and I are, you start ignoring such thing just as the French do themselves. But it is really totally unmistakable.
> 
> The partially unvoiced [ʁ] you can only detect with wave-analyser or you have to have a _very_ well trained ear in such thing, which I haven't.


I think Spanish speakers would detect "pohte" as "poste" 
In Italian I didn't know there was a difference between [r] and [ɾ], unless I learnt some basic phonetic notions by myself on the Internet.


----------



## berndf

Youngfun said:


> Or maybe Austrian pronunciation?  (and most Romance language speakers learning German)


1. Austrian "o"s are always [o], never [ɔ].
2. The Austrian _ach-Laut _is on the forward side of [x] and Germans perceive it as in between _ach-Laut_ and _ich-Laut_. It can never ever been associated with [χ].


Youngfun said:


> I think Spanish speakers would detect "pohte" as "poste"


I don't understand what you mean.
1. Spanish has no /h/ sound.
2. The sound is not even remotely similar to an /s/ - any variety, Iberian or Latin American.


----------



## Youngfun

Sorry, I meant "po*j*te".

But the grapheme "j" in Spanish can be pronounced  or [x] depending on the dialect. 
Pre-consonantic or final /s/ can be pronouced [x] in some place; and even , I guess in some places in Andalucia and Carribean perhaps.
From Wikipedia:


> [...]In many places it debuccalizes to  in final position (e.g. _niños_ [ˈnĩɲo̞h] 'children'), or before another consonant (e.g. _fósforo_ [ˈfo̞hfo̞ɾo̞] 'match') — in other words, the change occurs in the coda position in a syllable.
> [...]
> Thus in Madrid the following realizations are found: /pesˈkado/ → [pe̞xˈkao̞] [...]


----------



## berndf

Youngfun said:


> Sorry, I meant "po*j*te".


And that's what I wrote. Why did you contradict me then?





Youngfun said:


> Pre-consonantic or final /s/ can be pronouced [x] in some place


I see what you mean.


----------



## Youngfun

Sorry berndf, I didn't mean to contradict you.

I was making a curious comparation between French and Spanish.
While in French [poχtə]~[poxtə] would be understood as <po*r*te>, in Spanish [poxte]~[pohte] would be understood as <po*s*te>.


----------



## berndf

Youngfun said:


> Sorry berndf, I didn't mean to contradict you.


I was not upset. I just didn't understand.


Youngfun said:


> I was making a curious comparation between French and Spanish.
> While in French [poχtə]~[poxtə] would be understood as <po*r*te>, in Spanish [poxte]~[pohte] would be understood as <po*s*te>.


Only in some regional varieties.


----------



## Ihsiin

I was in Paris recently and I could have sworn I heard R being pronounced as /ʕ/.
Any thoughts?


----------



## merquiades

berndf said:


> Try to switch on your Spanish and not your French brain and listen to the first word only thinking of it as being spelled "pojte". If your are used to hearing French every day, as you and I are, you start ignoring such thing just as the French do themselves. But it is really totally unmistakable.
> 
> The partially unvoiced [ʁ] you can only detect with wave-analyser or you have to have a _very_ well trained ear in such thing, which I haven't.



I still don't believe it is even close to being unvoiced.  Partially unvoiced in certain phonetic environments like this one... I can believe. But still retaining some voice.
Personally I'm not even convinced that French speakers can hear or even reproduce /x/.  I have a hard time getting them to recognize Spanish jota and reproduce it.  A word like "rojo" is a disaster for the French.  Both r and j become [ʁ].  Distinction between verb tenses like "diré" (I will say), "dije" (I said) and "dijera" (that I might say) are lost.  Sometimes I do the unsuccessful drill of repeating "José come jamón" which inevitably becomes "Rosé come Ramón" with [ʁ]. I let them pronounce hard /g/ in "hago".  That triggers another problem.  Digo/Dijo... homonyms too
The German name examples I referred to before like Schumarrer for Schumacher is another example.  There is something about unvoicing that blocks them, so I don't think it's part of their speech patterns.
To compare [ʁ] pronounced as [x], check out Victoria Abril speaking French.  You'll hear the difference.  She sings "tu verras, tu verras" as "tu vejá, tu vejá"



			
				Youngfun said:
			
		

> I think Spanish speakers would detect "pohte" as "poste"


The aspirated s in "Hasta la vista", is just an aspiration following an elongated vowel.  It's not a full-blown /h/ let alone a /x/.  It's written as a small slightly raised h between the "a/i" and the "t".  Notice how this speaker says Hasta/ Hasta luego.
/x/ does exist for /s/ in Madrid and elsewhere but only before /k/, /g/ and /x/:   Tienex que ver esax gatas



			
				Ihsiin said:
			
		

> I was in Paris recently and I could have sworn I heard R being pronounced as /ʕ/.
> Any thoughts?


I have noticed that some young people in Paris particularly second generation immigrants have a particular accent and one of its features is a very short, very guttural, non plosive "r" between vowels, like some kind of swallowed voiced throat glide between the vowels:  Pa'is (BergerBlanc).  I'm not sure if that's what you mean...


----------



## berndf

merquiades said:


> I still don't believe it is even close to being unvoiced.


I am afraid, these things are simply too well documented (with wave form analyzers and all the technological gizmos we have today) to be a question of belief.


merquiades said:


> Personally I'm not even convinced that French speakers can hear or even reproduce /x/


This is the wrong question. The question is whether they can *separate *[ʁ] and [χ]. If two sounds are interchangeable realizations of the same phoneme and you have been trained to ignore the difference all your life, it is very difficult to consciously control which realization you use. As full devoicing usually occurs only at the end of the word and before or after unvoiced consonants, it is therefore difficult for a French speaker to devoice it in words like "dirai" where it occurs intervocalically.


----------

