# Urdu: Omitting the personal pronoun



## ihsaan

Hi,

Just wondering if it is normal in Urdu to omit the personal pronoun in colloquial speech?

As an example, you have this dialogue with several examples of this: http://dsal.uchicago.edu/digbooks/digpager.html?BOOKID=PK1983.N2_1999_V2&object=14

I have also seen this several times in my "Teach Yourself Urdu" book.


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## marrish

If you can type several examples from your Teach yourself it would make the task much easier, ihsaan SaaHibah. In the dialogue, did you mean this sentence?:- _zaraa baRii baazaar tak chalte haiN_?

Also what struck me was the use of _jaaRaa_, I have a feeling that this word has fallen out of use. I'm curious as to what other friends may say.


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## ihsaan

Yes, that´s one of the examples I found on that page. Another example follows the same sentence: "kuch ciizeeN xariidnaa haiN."  Later, it is said: "Accha, bahut sii ciizeeN xariidnii haiN?"

I just used that text as an example, because there are several examples of this in it.


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## Sabita

As in "bahot sii ciizeeN xariidniiN haiN ?" Instead of "kya aap neiN......"
I would've added "kya" at the beginning but otherwise the sentense is quite natural, there's no ambguity about the subject of the sentence.


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## ihsaan

Yes, I´m talking about whether using personal pronouns (aap, ham, maiN etc.) in a sentence is necessary, or if they can naturally be omitted due to the fact that the way a verb is conjugated (haiN vs. hooN etc.) will indicate whom the sentence is referring to regardless of the personal pronouns.


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## Qureshpor

Sabita said:


> As in "bahot sii ciizeeN xariidnii*N* haiN ?" Instead of "kya aap nei*N*......"
> I would've added "kya" at the beginning but otherwise the sentense is quite natural, there's no ambguity about the subject of the sentence.



Sabita SaaHibah, the *N *is superfluous here.


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## Sabita

no it's not necessary if there's no confusion possible about who you're talking about (usually in a conversation)


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## ihsaan

Okay, thank you for clarifying that!


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## ihsaan

marrish said:


> If you can type several examples from your Teach yourself it would make the task much easier, ihsaan SaaHibah. In the dialogue, did you mean this sentence?:- _zaraa baRii baazaar tak chalte haiN_?
> 
> Also what struck me was the use of _jaaRaa*_, I have a feeling that this word has fallen out of use. I'm curious as to what other friends may say.



*By the way: I saw that word used in the Teach Yourself Book as well, but I guess that book isn´t very representative of the Urdu spoken by most today...


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## marrish

But normally it is advisable to use them. With respect to ''bahut sii chiizeN xariidnii haiN'', the personal pronoun which is left out, would be aap ko, which is not in the direct case (nominative), so there is no problem with the absence of a grammatical subject. Of course in English one will say ''*I* have to buy many things'' while the construction in Urdu is indirect = _aap ko_ is a logical subject.


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## marrish

ihsaan said:


> *By the way: I saw that word used in the Teach Yourself Book as well, but I guess that book isn´t very representative of the Urdu spoken by most today...


I'm not familiar with that book so I can't say if it is representative or correct, but the opinion of a friend of mine is that this word sounds quite nicely. jaaRaa is not wrong in any sense, it is just that this word wouldn't be used or even understood by the young generation. Just my impression. For ''winter'' I'd go for expressions which originate in Persian, that is سردیاں _sardiyaaN_ or موسم سرما _mausam-e-sarmaa_.


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## ihsaan

Thank you for your replies, Marrish saaHib. Very helpful and clarifying indeed. 

(Oh, how sad it is that pretty words are forgotten, but I guess this is what most languages go through from one generation to the next... )


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## marrish

ihsaan said:


> Thank you for your replies, Marrish saaHib. Very helpful and clarifying indeed.
> 
> (Oh, how sad it is that pretty words are forgotten, but I guess this is what most languages go through from one generation to the next... )


You're most welcome, indeed!
Another such word which is thematically connected is _pat-jhaR_ for ''autumn, fall''.


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## Sabita

QURESHPOR said:


> Sabita SaaHibah, the *N *is superfluous here.



Sorry i'm not really used to hindi/urdu romanization ^_^"


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## ihsaan

marrish said:


> You're most welcome, indeed!
> Another such word which is thematically connected is _pat-jhaR_ for ''autumn, fall''.



Jotting it down in my notebook! Thank you!


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## marrish

ihsaan said:


> Jotting it down in my notebook! Thank you!


Good to know that our humble contributions here are not going to be forgotten! I also keep a notebook!


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> Also what struck me was the use of _jaaRaa_, I have a feeling that this word has fallen out of use. I'm curious as to what other friends may say.



kiyaa hai taazah naxl-i-Gham ko, aaheN sard bhar bhar ke
baRii miHnat se maiN ne yih shajar jaaRe meN paalaa hai!

Amanat

Please note the double meaning of "paalaa"!


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## marrish

QP Sb, can you tell something more about this double meaning? Is ''palle paRnaa''?


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> QP Sb, can you tell something more about this double meaning? Is ''palle paRnaa''?



No, "paalaa" in Urdu = frost


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## marrish

QURESHPOR said:


> No, "paalaa" in Urdu = frost


Upss, I didn't know! But I'm going to write it in my notebook!


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## UrduMedium

^ Ditto. I did not know this either. Thanks, QP saahab.

I suppose the verb _pal jaana_ (e.g. used for fruit) may be related to this.


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## Faylasoof

Sabita said:


> As in "bahot sii ciizeeN xariidniiN haiN ?" Instead of "*kya aap neiN*......"
> I would've added "kya" at the beginning but otherwise the sentense is quite natural, there's no ambguity about the subject of the sentence.


 Sabita SaaHibah, the correct gramatical form is "*kyaa aap ko*......"! ...and I do understand about the trouble with Romanization. We all need to get used to it.


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## Faylasoof

marrish said:


> If you can type several examples from your Teach yourself it would make the task much easier, ihsaan SaaHibah. In the dialogue, did you mean this sentence?:- _zaraa baRii baazaar tak chalte haiN_?
> 
> Also what struck me was the use of* jaaRaa*, I have a feeling that this word has fallen out of use. I'm curious as to what other friends may say.



marrish SaaHib, _*jaaRaa*_ is very much current in our speech! It is also used currently in Urdu poetry:

اونچے مکانوں کے مکینوں  کو  بھلا کیا
یہ دھوپ، یہ *جاڑا*، یہ برسات ہے بھلا کیا

کچے مکانوں کے مکینوں سے تو  پوچھو
سرد   راتوں   کی   آفت   ہے   بھلا  کیا

(سہل مظفر)

_uuNche makaanoN ke makiinoN ko bhalaa kyaa
yeh dhuup, yeh *jaaRaa*, yeh barsaat bhalaa kyaa

kachche makaanoN ke makiinoN se to puuchho
sard raatoN kii aafat hai bhalaa kyaa
_
(sahl muzaffar)

Sentences omitting the personal pronoun (e.g. _zaraa baRii baazaar tak chalte haiN_?) are very common. Very idiomatic usage in all the examples. But for a beginner may be it is best to include the personal pronoun just to get into the habit of using them. Otherwise one can drop them as we often do.


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## Qureshpor

UrduMedium said:


> ^ Ditto. I did not know this either. Thanks, QP saahab.
> 
> I suppose the verb _pal jaana_ (e.g. used for fruit) may be related to this.



I don't know about "pal jaanaa", UM SaaHib. Re: paalaa, please see post 7 of this thread.

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1999468&highlight=paalaa

You might also have heard the well known Muhammad Rafi song, written by the Urdu poet Shakeel Badayuni beginning with the words "rahaa gardishoN meN har dam mere 3ishq kaa sitaarah". There is a couplet in this song..

paRe jab GhamoN se paale, rahe miT ke miTne vaale
jise maut ne nah puuchhaa, use zindagii ne maaraa

Here "paalaa paRnaa" implies "vaasitah paRnaa" (I did n't write vaastah because Ziya Muhyiddin pronounces it as vaasitah! I wish I could speak like him!!


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## marrish

Faylasoof said:


> marrish SaaHib, _*jaaRaa*_ is very much current in our speech! It is also used currently in Urdu poetry:
> 
> اونچے مکانوں کے مکینوں  کو  بھلا کیا
> یہ دھوپ، یہ *جاڑا*، یہ برسات ہے بھلا کیا
> 
> کچے مکانوں کے مکینوں سے تو  پوچھو
> سرد   راتوں   کی   آفت   ہے   بھلا  کیا
> 
> (سہل مظفر)
> 
> _uuNche makaanoN ke makiinoN ko bhalaa kyaa
> yeh dhuup, yeh *jaaRaa*, yeh barsaat bhalaa kyaa
> 
> kachche makaanoN ke makiinoN se to puuchho
> sard raatoN kii aafat hai bhalaa kyaa
> _
> (sahl muzaffar)
> ...


Thanks for this piece of information. When I said that jaaRaa has fallen out of use it was just my impression, and when I said that was curious to know the opinion of other friends, I had no other than you in mind and your answer doesn't surprise me! It is very good to know that this word is current.


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> Thanks for this piece of information. When I said that jaaRaa has fallen out of use it was just my impression, and when I said that was curious to know the opinion of other friends, I had no other than you in mind and your answer doesn't surprise me! It is very good to know that this word is current.



Well marrish SaaHib, you should then have used the word "friend"!


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## marrish

QURESHPOR said:


> Well marrish SaaHib, you should then have used the word "friend"!


Your reasoning is strong, QP SaaHib but my wishes and the reality are not always compatible. My point was that in case of Faylasoof SaaHib I expected him to answer and he has done it, while Alfaaz, UM or Cilquiestsuens SaaHibaan, whose opinions based on their extensive knowledge and observation would be very welcome but, alas! in this case my expectations have also come true, that is: they haven't answered yet!


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