# arrivare a dire



## alenaro

Hi everyone, 

How can I translate into English the expression "arrivare a dire"? It means that _you are pushing yourself maybe beyond the limit if you dare to say_ _that something_

It comes to my mind something like "get to say", but it is totally invented and I guess there must be a better English way of saying...

Thank you all


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## lgs

Can you provide a little more context?


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## alenaro

I'll provide a sentence in Italian and then try to give the proper correspondant English one:

_Solo perchè Paolo non ha mangiato per 1 giorno, non puoi certo arrivare a dire che ha problemi con il cibo._

--> _It's true that Paul hasn't eaten for the whole day, but you cannot get to say (because of that) that he has problems towards food._


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## furs

Just because Paul hasn't eaten the whole day, you can't say that he has problems with food.
O magari: .. you can't go as far as saying that...


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## joe86

Just my 2 pence:

_Just because Paolo didn't eat for one day you can't *come to saying* that he's got problems with food..._

_Joe_


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## lgs

I think furs' first choice works best.


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## alenaro

lgs said:


> I think furs' first choice works best.



Maybe it works best, but the Italian expression I used is slightly different from the one I'd have translating your English sentence into Italian. In fact it would be:

_- Solo perchè Paolo non ha mangiato per tutto il giorno, non puoi dire che ha problemi col cibo._

I mean, it wouldn't be exactly the same sentence.


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## lgs

I guess you're right.  "You can't go as far as saying..." is probably a closer match.


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## joe86

How about the _*come to saying*_ thing? (see my post above)

Doesn't it get the idea of _*arrivare a dire qualcosa*_ across?


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## brian

No, Joe, _come to saying_ is not right.

The problem with this sentence, and hence with furs' translation, is that _Just because X_ is a set construction in English, and it works like this:

_Just because X, doesn't mean Y._ Any other formulation thereof sounds kind of strange. So in my opinion the translation should be:

_Just because Paolo didn't eat for a whole day *doesn't mean* he has problems with food._

So I suggest you come up with a new example that doesn't contain "Solo perché..."


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## alenaro

_If come to saying_ means in Italian _venire per dire_, then I must say the two expressions are totally different. 

_Arrivare a dire_ in Italian means _Push yourself to the point of saying that..._


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## brian

Furs' attempt with "You can't go so far as to say" (not "as saying") is very close but, for the reasons I gave above, doesn't work with this particular example.

Please come up with a new example, and we'll see if it works. 

(Also, _come to saying_ is not correct; I don't think you saw my post above.)


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## alenaro

New example-attempt: 

_Ok, Paolo forse ultimamente esce poco, ma non puoi arrivare a dire che è una persona asociale._
_--> Well, maybe Paul does not go out so often lately, but you cannot go as far as saying he's an asocial person._


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## brian

Even in that case I would say _but it doesn't mean that_.

Honestly, I think the general equivalent in English is _it doesn't mean that_, which implies _you cannot conclude/come to the conclusion that_.

But question: does _non puoi arrivare a dire_ mean that YOU have already said that? cioè tu hai già detto che è una persona molto asociale, e adesso io ti dico che non puoi arrivare a dire una cosa del genere?


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## joe86

I do not think *come to saying* means _*venire per dire*_...that would have to be _*come to say*_.

Brian, what do you mean when you say that_ come to saying_ is not correct? That it is not English or that it does not work here?
I googled out 5,860 hits for _come to saying_...it seemed to be working as a construction...

How about *arrivare a(l punto di) fare qualcosa *then_?_ I knew it was _come to the point of doing something _or _come to doing something_...isn't it right?


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## brian

Argh.. this is why I have such a love-hate relationship with Google. Joe, you'll see that most of the Google hits are the following construction: _to come close to saying_. Except that the structure is transformed so that _come to saying_ stands together: _It was the closest I had come to saying..._ 

So yeah, _come to saying_, in the sense of a construction like _to come to saying_, is not correct in English. The expression does not exist.


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## alenaro

brian8733 said:


> But question: does _non puoi arrivare a dire_ mean that YOU have already said that? cioè tu hai già detto che è una persona molto asociale, e adesso io ti dico che non puoi arrivare a dire una cosa del genere?



I'd answer "yes" to your question, even if not necessarily. Yes, we all probably know what the matter is about if anyone of us talk like that eventually. I could use that expression though I'm just expressing a very general statement of fact, as: 

Situazione: l'Italia vara leggi contro l'immigrazione clandestina. Nel Paese circolano considerazioni seconod cui siamo un popolo razzista.
Discussione generale di persone al bar: _Ma non si può certo arrivare a dire che siamo un popolo razzista!

_Yes, in the end I'd say that it's a sort of re-calling something that was somehow already expressed...


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## brian

alenaro said:


> Situazione: l'Italia vara leggi contro l'immigrazione clandestina.
> Discussione generale di persone al bar: _Ma non si può certo arrivare a dire che siamo un popolo razzista!_



Okay, that's what I thought. Then in English, the most natural and idiomatic phrase is: *but that doesn't mean...* _(that we're a racist nation!)

_You could say something a bit more formal like _But you can't draw/come to the conclusion that_, but I'd never say that in a bar.


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## alenaro

Ok Brian, and please, check this other example: 

_Colombo non era spagnolo! Anzi, pensa che qualcuno arriva a dire che fosse addirittura portoghese!_


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## joe86

Humm...so all the assumptions I set out from have ceased to exist...
now you'll have to tell me how to get the _arrivare a(l punto di) fare qualcosa_ construction across!  

Maybe..._to get to the point of having to do something_...although it does sound a bit flowery to me, doesn't it?


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## brian

alenaro said:


> Ok Brian, and please, check this other example:
> 
> _Colombo non era spagnolo! Anzi, pensa che qualcuno arriva a dire che fosse addirittura portoghese!_





joe86 said:


> Humm...so all the assumptions I set out from have ceased to exist...
> now you'll have to tell me how to get the _arrivare a(l punto di) fare qualcosa_ construction across!
> 
> Maybe..._to get to the point of having to do something_...although it does sound a bit flowery to me, doesn't it?



Ok guys, in both of these constructions, I would use the suggestion given by furs above (although, Joe, yours might differ depending on context):

_Just think that someone *would go so far as to say* he was really Portuguese!

*to go so far as to do something*
_


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## joe86

> *to go so far as to do something*


  Thanks Brian, that's what I was looking for 

One last question, could your suggestion be pretty much the same as a simple _to get to do something_ in some circumstances?

I'll give an example: e fu soltanto allora che arrivai a capire quanto la vita potesse essere dura li

my shot:_ only then did I get to understand (realize) how hard life could be there_

Thanks for your help __

_Joe_


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## brian

Oh lord, in that case you say _Only then did I *come to realize (understand)* (just) how hard life could be there._ 

So maybe that's what was confusing you all along. We _do_ say *to come to realize*  (or _know, appreciate, understand, _etc.), but we do _not_ say *to come to say*.


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## You little ripper!

I think "come to the conclusion", which Brian has already suggested, probably comes closest to the Italian "arrivare al punto di". 

*You can't come to the conclusion that Paul has problems with food just because he hasn't eaten for a day.
..........You can't come to the conclusion that we are a racist nation.*

I've just read your first post again, alenaro 



> It means that _you are pushing yourself maybe beyond the limit if you dare to say_ _that something_


and I think that maybe "you can't possibly say" might fit even better.

*You can't possibly say that Paul has problems with food just because he hasn't eaten for a day!

..........You can't possibly say that we are a racist nation!

Paul hasn't been out much lately, but you can't possibly say he's antisocial!*
_*
........... To think that someone could possibly say he was Portuguese!


*_


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## blue_eyed_girlpl

Interesting thread! This Italian expression "arrivare a dire" bothers me as well  I've read all the posts here, but I still have some doubts. Could any "expert" explain to me *what exactly* "arrivare a dire" means - maybe in other words in Italian since I don't fully understand the English translation suggested here.

I heard it several times during one programme. One prof was talking about a  group of researchers and sharing the results of their experiment he repeated che "sono arrivati a dire". I thought it may be something like  "hanno perfino concluso", but according to Alenaro's English explanation I'm wrong, aren't I?


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## alenaro

blue_eyed_girlpl said:


> Interesting thread! This Italian expression "arrivare a dire" bothers me as well  I've read all the posts here, but I still have some doubts. Could any "expert" explain to me *what exactly* "arrivare a dire" means - maybe in other words in Italian since I don't fully understand the English translation suggested here.
> 
> I heard it several times during one programme. One prof was talking about a  group of researchers and sharing the results of their experiment he repeated che "sono arrivati a dire". I thought it may be something like  "hanno perfino concluso", but according to Alenaro's English explanation I'm wrong, aren't I?



Ciao Blue Eyes,
to be honest the more I've read this thread the more I've had to admit that this expression has few slight differences in its meanings depending on which sentences you use it in and what kind of stress you give to them...
What made my doubts grow were Brian's postings, it seems that in English you aren't so free to translate the expression the way we do in Italian.

_- Arrivare a dire_ *as* _hanno perfino concluso/detto/sostenuto_ perfectly works.. and I could see in this expression a sort of amazament. Check for istance the sentence about Columbus I have posted.

Thank you all


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## You little ripper!

It would appear that the expression has different meanings. The CdS dictionary translates it as 'dared to say'.

*Arrivare*
12 (fig) (osare) to dare: _è arrivato a dire che sono una nullità per lui!_ he dared to say I'm nothing to him.


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## alenaro

Charles Costante said:


> It would appear that the expression has different meanings. The CdS dictionary translates it as 'dared to say'.



And this, Charles, is what I firstly suggested still in my first post. All of your suggestions have been, no doubt, very helpful and clear. Thank you


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## You little ripper!

alenaro said:


> And this, Charles, is what I firstly suggested still in my first post. All of your suggestions have been, no doubt, very helpful and clear. Thank you


You did too. The problem is that it doesn't fit all your examples.

*You can't (dare say) that Paul has problems with food just because he hasn't eaten for a day! *(you can't say it here)*

..........You can't (dare say) that we are a racist nation! *(you can't really say it here)
 *
Paul hasn't been out much lately, but you can't (dare say) that he's antisocial.

*_* ........... To think that someone would dare say  he was Portuguese! *_(you could say it here)

Another option that would fit in most of those examples is 'you can hardly say' (you can hardly come to the conclusion that).

*You can hardly say that Paul has problems with food just because he hasn't eaten for a day!**

..........You can hardly say that we are a racist nation! *
 *
Paul hasn't been out much lately, but you can hardly say he's antisocial!*


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## joe86

Guys you got my mind messed up with all these different options... just trying to write them all down in order, but I daresay I'll never be able to remember them, at least when speaking...

Let's just do a bit of round-up of what has been said so far, shall we? 

The first option you suggested was:
- _just because...it doesn't mean..._ (and this is an easy one to remember, which seems to sort of fit most of the situations)

As a general rule, I seem to understand (correct me if I'm wrong) that you can use these two with whatever verb (generally speaking):
_- to go as far as to do something;_
_- to dare to do something_

These are a bit more specif:
_- to draw/come to the conclusion that;_
_- can hardly say something;_
_- can't possibly say something_
_- to come to realize/understand/know/appreciate/etc... something_

And last but not least, I'll add in my suggestion (to which I still haven't got an answer)
_- to get to do something_

Did I miss anything out by chance? Any corrections natives?

Cheers 

_Joe_


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## brian

Well, those are all correct, but they all obviously have very different meanings, particularly _to come to realize, etc._, which really has nothing to do with _arrivare a dire_; it was simply this construction that was confusing you and making you think you could say _to come to say_.

Anyway, as to your question about _to get to do something_, I thought I already answered it:



			
				joe86 said:
			
		

> One last question, could your suggestion be pretty much the same as a simple _to get to do something_ in some circumstances?
> 
> I'll give an example: e fu soltanto allora che arrivai a capire quanto la vita potesse essere dura li
> 
> my shot:_ only then did I get  *come* to understand (realize) how hard life could be there_



I said in this case you have to use _come_. _To get to do something_ usually means _to have the opportunity to do something_. But again, this has nothing to do with _arrivare a *dire*_, which is an expression that warrants its own, very different set of expressions in English.


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## joe86

Thanks Brian  That's what I wanted to have clear in my mind. 
I had understood _to get to do something_ wasn't correct in that instance, just wanted to know if could be correct in other situations or have other meanings.

Now I know it means _to have the opportunity to do something._

Fair enough __


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## Shahrazad

We   might translate it as : 'arrive at the conclusion.'

Just because Paolo hasn't eaten all day, we shouldn't arrive at the conclusion that he has problems with food.  
A little awkward yes,   but it seems to be close to the original construction.


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## marco.cur

arrivare a dire = giungere arbitrariamente alla conclusione


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## ub40

Ciao!
Come si può tradurre in inglese la frase
*"John dopo aver considerato tutti i fattori prima citati è arrivato a dire/ a sostenere che ...etc"*

_*"John, after having considered all the factors previously cited, has come to say/ to assert that..."*_

Si dice _*"HAS COME TO SAY"?*_

Grazie mille!


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## Mary49

****  NEW QUESTION ***​Buongiorno Forum,
in un testo scientifico (meccanismi tumorali nel carcinoma epatocellulare) che sto traducendo dall'italiano, viene usata molto spesso la forma impersonale (si è visto / si è scoperto, ecc.). Ora mi sono bloccata sull'espressione in grassetto: "_E’ inoltre stato scoperto come cellule neoplastiche ICAM-1 positive siano in grado di indurre neoplasie in vivo, dimostrando come le cellule di HCC che esprimono ICAM-1 abbiano proprietà tipiche delle cellule staminali del cancro. *Si è quindi arrivati a dire* che ICAM-1 potrebbe essere usato come un marker potenziale per le CSC_". Ho letto tutto il thread, ma non ho trovato qualcosa che mi potesse aiutare, in quanto tutte le traduzioni sono in forma personale, mentre qui non ho un soggetto. Potrei dire "*Researchers have come to say that...*"?


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## Fooler

Ciao Mary, perchè non girare magari la frase ?

_ICAM-1 is hardly supposed to be used as........as reserchers say. _(non leggo _ricercatori_ ma se l'hai scritto.....)

Mio azzardo


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## You little ripper!

I think "considered" or "the conclusion was reached" would work in your sentence, Mary.

_ICAM-1 is considered a potential marker for CSC_ ........
_The conclusion was reached that ICAM-1 could be used as a potential marker for CSC_ ...........

"CD44 is considered a potential CSC marker" - Google Search


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## Mary49

@You little ripper!  Thanks so much! You saved me! I like "_The conclusion was reached that ICAM-1 could be used...". _Thank you again!


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