# till vs until



## norman _lewis

What is the difference between "till" and "until?"_ <-----Question added to post by moderator.----->_

Please Give Some Examples.


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## cuchuflete

Welcome to the forums, Norman Lewis.

For a start, until*l* is a misspelling of until.

Here is a clear explanation:



> —Usage note Till1 and until are both old in the language and are interchangeable as both prepositions and conjunctions: It rained till (or _until_) _nearly midnight. The savannah remained brown and lifeless until_ (or _till_) _the rains began._ Till is not a shortened form of until and is not spelled 'till. '*Til* is usually considered a spelling error, though widely used in advertising: Open '*til* ten.


 source


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## JamesM

I think you're thinking of "until" and "'til". 'Til is just a contraction of until, so I think they are interchangeable in that sense. It seems to me it's a personal choice of which one to use, and it seems to depend on how it fits into the sentence.

'Til is often used in poetry where one syllable is needed.

I would personally not write "'til" in any formal or business document.

Beyond that, I can't say. I'm interested in seeing other people's responses to this question.


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## french4beth

I think "_till_" sounds very stilted & formal & generally use "_until_".


> Usage Note: _Till_ and _until_ are generally interchangeable in both writing and speech, though as the first word in a sentence _until_ is usually preferred: _Until you get that paper written, don't even think about going to the movies_.
> 
> _Till_ is actually the older word, with _until_ having been formed by the addition to it of the prefix un-, meaning "up to" ... Although 'till is now nonstandard, 'til is sometimes used in this way and is considered acceptable, though it is etymologically incorrect.


 
source

'Til later!**


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## norman _lewis

Thanks Guys


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## la reine victoria

I disagree, JamesM. Till and until, as Cuchuflete's example has shown, are two separate words which co-existed before the 10th century. I always thought that "till" was an abbreviation of "until" but this is not the case.

The Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary gives



> *till conj., prep., noun, verb
> conj., prep. = until: We’re open till 6 o’clock. Can’t you wait till we get home? Just wait till you see it. It’s great. Till is generally felt to be more informal than until and is used much less often in writing. At the beginning of a sentence, until is usually used.
> 
> *


 



*LRV*


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## JamesM

Yes, I see that now.  I learned something today, which is always a good thing.


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## .   1

I don't mean to quibble but The Collins Dictionary has a slightly different take to the OALD of LRV.
USAGE _Till _is a variant of _until _that is acceptable at all levels of language.  Until is, however, often preferred at the beginning of a sentence in formal writing.

.,,


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## mplsray

. said:


> I don't mean to quibble but The Collins Dictionary has a slightly different take to the OALD of LRV.
> USAGE _Till _is a variant of _until _that is acceptable at all levels of language. Until is, however, often preferred at the beginning of a sentence in formal writing.
> 
> .,,


 
It turns out that dictionaries show more disagreement on the spelling variants of _till_ than they generally do about other usages. Some list no variants, the _Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary_ lists _'til_ and _til_ as standard variants, the _Encarta World English Dictionary,_ North American ed., lists _'till_ and _'til_ as standard variants, while on the contrary the _American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language,_ 4th ed., explicitly identifies _'till_ as being "now nonstandard"—at one point it was a fashionable spelling—and says of _'til_ that it "is considered acceptable, though it is etymologically incorrect."


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## SofiaB

When talking about time I have always said 5 to 9. Recently I have heard 5 til 9 is it also correct? I have also seen 'til indicating that it is an abreviation but it seems it is not.


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## duden

Hi,
I´d like to ask an additional question to this topic - I have learnt a rule which says that after "until" only positive verb can be used, whereas after "till" we can use both positive and negative sentence:

I will stay here until she leaves.

I will stay here till she leaves.
I will stay here till she doesn´t leave.

Now I am not sure whether the last one is correct, could you please advise me?
Thank you


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## cuchuflete

duden said:


> Hi,
> I´d like to ask an additional question to this topic - I have learnt a rule which says that after "until" only positive verb can be used, whereas after "till" we can use both positive and negative sentence:
> 
> I will stay here until she leaves.
> 
> I will stay here till she leaves.
> I will stay here till she doesn´t leave.
> 
> Now I am not sure whether the last one is correct, could you please advise me?
> Thank you



First, it might be useful for you to tell us what you mean by "positive verb".

"I will stay here till she doesn't leave."   This makes absolutely no sense to me.  What is it supposed to convey?


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## duden

Well, by "positive verb" I meant a verb without "not", that is actually a positive sentence.
I thought that both last sentences could have the same meaning but obviously this is not true...
Is it so that we cannot use a "negative verb" (with "not") after "till" in any phrase?

Thank you once more!


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## cuchuflete

I will use prepositions at the ends of sentences till prescriptivists _don't complain_ any more.

Is that negative?


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## duden

I will use prepositions at the ends of sentences till prescriptivists _don't complain_ any more 

That is what I mean. And in the same way the sentence "I will stay here till she doesn´t leave." was meant. Is there a difference in meaning?

*duden


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## cuchuflete

My (jocular?) sample sentence means, more or less, _I will do X until some people cease to do Y._

Your sample sentence founders on the rocks of logic:  _I will do X until she ceases to do something she cannot do continuously._

Suppose we change your sentence to remove the logical blockage...

_I will stay here till she doesn't snore.

_That works.  She is snoring.  You state that you will remain here until/till/'til that activity comes to an end.


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## duden

I see...

It is clear now, thank you very much for your help!
*duden


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## mplsray

<< Deleted post deleted. >>

Please note that _won't, _with an apostrophe, is the contraction (not abbreviation) for _will not_ (although etymologically it's actually a contraction for the dialectal form _woll not_). _Wont_ is an entirely unrelated noun.

_Can't_ is a contraction, not an abbreviation, of _can not,_ while _cant_ is an entirely unrelated noun.

_Cannot_ is either a contraction or an alternate spelling of _can not._

Most importantly, _till_ is *not* a shortened form of _until:_ Rather, _until_ was formed from _till._


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## Loob

duden said:


> I have learnt a rule which says that after "until" only positive verb can be used, whereas after "till" we can use both positive and negative sentence


Your rule is wrong, duden.

"Till" and "until" are exact equivalents in terms of the grammatical structures they introduce


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## MikeLynn

I might have missed something important here, but from what I've read in this thread, I believe that some of you believe _until_ is a "negative" form of _till_. probably because of the negative prefix, while _'til _ is a short form of until and also *negative*.  I have always thought these two were synonymous and were supposed to be treated, "grammar-wise-ly", the same way as for negatives and the like. Are there any differences in different dialects and/or registers? It would be a good thing to know . Thanks a lot for your advice
M&L


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## mplsray

MikeLynn said:


> I might have missed something important here, but from what I've read in this thread, I believe that some of you believe _until_ is a "negative" form of _till_. probably because of the negative prefix, while _'til _is a short form of until and also *negative*. I have always thought these two were synonymous and were supposed to be treated, "grammar-wise-ly", the same way as for negatives and the like. Are there any differences in different dialects and/or registers? It would be a good thing to know . Thanks a lot for your advice
> M&L


 
I think that in your question you should have referred to "the resemblance of _un-_ to the negative prefix," since _un-_ in _until_ is unrelated to the negative prefix _un-._


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## MikeLynn

Thank you for your correction mplsray it was the resemblance that misguided me


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## mplsray

MikeLynn said:


> Are there any differences in different dialects and/or registers? It would be a good thing to know . Thanks a lot for your advice
> M&L


 
The American Heritage Book of English Usage says, 


"You can use _till_ and _until_ interchangeably in both writing and speech, though as the first word in a sentence _until_ is more common: _Until you get that paper written, don’t even think about going to the movies."_


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## MikeLynn

Thank you, that's what I've been doing for quite a time, thinking that _till_ might be a bit more formal, hence more "suitable/appropriate" in writing, but the topic of this thread made me feel quite insecure .
So, on the whole, both of them should have a ""built-in negation and the verb in the clause introduced/linked by either of them "should not" be negative.


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## cuchuflete

MikeLynn said:


> T
> So, on the whole, both of them should have a ""built-in negation and the verb in the clause introduced/linked by either of them "should not" be negative.



First, I'm not sure I understand what you mean here.  Second, if it is a suggestion that
till or until should not be followed by a negative statement, then we disagree.  See my earlier discussion with Duden in this thread.

_Until hell freezes over we will not leave this topic. 
_


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## MikeLynn

No, no, no , I was just trying to find out a bit more about the difference between _until_ and _till_ as for the register or "degree of formality", if you will, and the resulting usage. I think, or hope, that we agree that in the dependent clause introduced by one of these there is no other negative expression because the conjunction "can handle it quite easily by itself". After all, even you wrote _Until hell freezes over we will not leave this topic._ instead of _Until hell doesn't..._. I'm really sorry if I made my post sound confusing


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## cuchuflete

Interesting.

Until hell doesn't...

How about this?

_Until you don't love chocolate, you will not stop eating it._


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## MikeLynn

Seems to be a bit similar to "It is not impossible..." or am I wrong? Looks like another example of a "legal double negative" in an English sentence. I 'm,pretty familiar with these as in Czech-my native tongue-you can use an unlimited number of negatives of any type to make a sentence negative. But, when I take one more look at your _Until you don't love chocolate, you will not stop eating it._, I'm afraid I would be really puzzled if someone told me something like this. What is your native understanding of the example? Mind you, there's no irony, no sarcasm, just sheer curiosity because I would love to learn a bit more about _the_ language  Thank you for enhancing my insight into this tricky matter.
M&L


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## Forero

"Till" and "until" mean exactly the same thing, something like "up to" or "up to the time when", and negatives in a "till"/"until" clause retain the same meaning they would have in an independent clause:

_I will stay here until midnight._ = "I will stay here up to midnight (at least)."
_I will stay here until she leaves._ = "I will stay here up to the time when she leaves."
_Until hell freezes over we will not leave this topic._ = "Up to the (impossible) time when hell freezes over, we will not leave this topic."
_Until you don't love chocolate, you will not stop eating it._ = "Up to such time, if any, that you don't love chocolate, you will not stop eating it" = You will keep eating chocolate as long as you love it.

On Sunday:

_I will stay here until it is not Sunday._ [an usual, but not impossible, sentence] = _I will stay here until midnight._ = _I will stay here until Monday comes.

_


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## MikeLynn

Thank you, Forero, that's basically the way I understood cuchuflete's sentence and your explanation made it quite clear. The problem is that after we, non-native speakers, have been warned that "double negatives" are not acceptable in "proper English", we tend to get a bit paranoid and suspicious when we see one. We've been also taught that _until_ carries a negative meaning by itself, so I hope this will make my puzzlement a bit easier to understand. Thanks a lot, to be honest, this forum is great, no buttering up, and it's helped me solve a lot of language problems


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## Loob

MikeLynn said:


> The problem is that after we, non-native speakers, have been warned that "double negatives" are not acceptable in "proper English", we tend to get a bit paranoid and suspicious when we see one. We've been also taught that _until_ carries a negative meaning by itself, so I hope this will make my puzzlement a bit easier to understand.


I think your puzzlement may stem from the sentence I've highlighted in red.

_Until_ doesn't carry a negative meaning...

I'm just wondering whether the equivalent in Czech is followed by a negative particle, and that's why you've been taught that?


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## cuchuflete

Loob said:


> _Until_ doesn't carry a negative meaning...



As Forero and Loob have made clear and simple, _until _and _till_ are not inherently negative.
They set theoretical limits on when or how something may occur.  Perhaps to understand this in a more intuitive way you might consider more examples.

_Until you have mastered the art of wetting a reed, you will not be able to play the clarinet well.  [Clarinet reeds must be wet to play properly.  A dry reed may produce unpleasant squeaks and honks, even when the player is an accomplished performer.]

Until XXX, you will be unable to do YYY.  _XXX is a requirement for YYY.

The sentence tells us that XXX is a necessary condition for YYY to take place.  It does not negate anything; it places a condition on the existence of YYY, much as _Photosynthesis requires light_ places a condition on a process.


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## JamesM

I'd like to offer a different type of example to show how the limit cuchufelete speaks of can even be imaginary:

"I will love you until/till the stars fall from the sky."

This very sentimental phrase means, essentially, that I will love you forever. In other words, "until" can be used in a sentence that has no negative word at all. "Till" and "until" are interchangeable here.

Another example:

"You will keep practicing this piece until/till you get it right."

Once the person can play it correctly he (or she) can stop practicing it. "Till" and "until" mean exactly the same thing here.


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## MikeLynn

Loob said:


> I think your puzzlement may stem from the sentence I've highlighted in red.
> 
> _Until_ doesn't carry a negative meaning...
> 
> I'm just wondering whether the equivalent in Czech is followed by a negative particle, and that's why you've been taught that?



Hello Loob, I'm sorry it's taken me so long to come up with a, hopefully, sensible reply.
I may not have put it the best way, but "negative meaning" was, at least at the time the best  formulation I could think of.
1) It is often possible to rephrase _unless_ as _*if*...*not*_-conditional. Let's assume there's is a temporal equivalent of this "*if*" and let's call it "*X*". Then _until_ could be rephrased as _"X..*not*"_. The result is that many people say things like: You won't go out _until_ you _WILL_ _*NOT*_ finish your homework. (Another problem is, that in Czech both future and conditionals are commonly used in the respective dependent clauses.)
2) A University Grammar of English says:
_"With until and its variant till, the superordinate is negative if the time reference is to a commencment point
He didn't start to read until he was ten years old.
He walked in the park till it was dark.
In the negative sentence, not(...)until means the same as not(...)before."_
Hope this might make my puzzlement and confusion a bit less confusing 
M&L


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## Loob

Hi M&L

Now I'm the one that's puzzled

I agree that "unless" often = "if ... not". But "until" and "when/while ... not" don't stand in anything like the same relationship. And I don't think 'many people' do say things like You won't go out _until_ you _WILL_ _*NOT*_ finish your homework. 

I agree, though, with your University Grammar extract. This is simply saying that if you want to re-phrase something like "he first started to read when he was 8", you do so using "not ... until".


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## MikeLynn

Hi Loob, I sort of realize that when/while cann't be used that way a that's why I came up with a hypothetical, probably non-existing, "temporal equivalent of the conditional *IF*" in my example. As for the line that many people do not say, it is pretty common here and it is a result of a literal translation from Czech-the will future in the temporal clause followed by a negative and that's the reason why we, Czech English speakers, tend to get so "paranoid" about using negative verbs in temporal clauses introduced by _until_.


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## Loob

MikeLynn said:


> it is a result of a literal translation from Czech-the will future in the temporal clause followed by a negative and that's the reason why we, Czech English speakers, tend to get so "paranoid" about using negative verbs in temporal clauses introduced by _until_.


I thought that must be the case, M&L...

I think if you "blank out" the Czech negative you'll get closer to the way English uses "until"


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## MikeLynn

Guess I got it already, at least I hope I'm getting pretty close . I was just trying to clarify the, to you, probably pretty bizarre notion of the "negative meaning" of until in my original post because that's exactly what it works like when it gets translated into Czech 
Thank you for your advice and patience


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## Adam Cruge

Good info...


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## Miss MM

Hi there,
Could give me advice which one is correct?

Untill what time you are open? or Till what time you are open?

Im going away untill June or Im going away till June?

Thank you


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## Prima Facie

Until = till

Not unti*ll*


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## Miss MM

Thank you for replying.
So I can use both? doesn't matter at all which one where to use? I mean one in more formal way?


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## Rover_KE

Until = till/'til.

I wouldn't say they were _always_  interchangeable. In some contexts one might be preferable to the other.

Rover


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## Miss MM

Thank you Rover.


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## Packard

I was taught that you *till the soil*, but it is *'til there was you*.

Mostly I see 'til in poetry and music. It loses one syllable which might be needed to maintain the metrical line.


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## Loob

There are several previous threads*: you can find them by putting _until till_ into the search box at the top of the page.

This one until / till / only includes reference to an American Heritage Dictionary note on the (small) difference in usage between *until *and *till.*

_________________
EDIT: I see today's question has now been added to one of those previous threads


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## Keith Bradford

So to summarise:

In virtually all circumstances, _*until, till*_ and (rarer) _*'til*_ are absolutely identical (meaning _up to the moment when_)
Until*l* and *'*till are spelling mistakes 
_Until/till_ don't need to be followed by a negative, whatever other languages might think
But they can be followed by a negative, so long as the result is logically possible
_Not_ _until/not till_ mean "_before_".
I never realised people found this so difficult!


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## Packard

Keith Bradford said:


> So to summarise:
> 
> In virtually all circumstances, _*until, till*_ and (rarer) _*'til*_ are absolutely identical (meaning _up to the moment when_)
> Until*l* and *'*till are spelling mistakes
> _Until/till_ don't need to be followed by a negative, whatever other languages might think
> But they can be followed by a negative, so long as the result is logically possible
> _Not_ _until/not till_ mean "_before_".
> I never realised people found this so difficult!


 
Sir Paul should subscribe to WordReference then:

_...There were bells on a hill
But I never heard them ringing
No I never heard them at all
Till there was you..._


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## JamesM

I don't understand your comment, Packard.  Can you explain?  The lyric you quoted was written by Meredith Wilson.  It comes from "The Music Man".  The use of "till" seems in line with Keith's summary.


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## Packard

JamesM said:


> I don't understand your comment, Packard. Can you explain? The lyric you quoted was written by Meredith Wilson. It comes from "The Music Man". The use of "till" seems in line with Keith's summary.


 
Partly my error.

I was referring to the Beatles recording, not realizing that they did not write it.  A mistake of youth .

See:  http://www.metrolyrics.com/till-there-was-you-lyrics-beatles.html


And this bullet-point:


Until*l* and *'*till are spelling mistakes


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## Loob

But _untill _and _'till_ are spelling mistakes, MrP.

I'm clearly missing something....


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## Myridon

Packard said:


> I was referring to the Beatles recording, not realizing that they did not write it. A mistake of youth .


The song was written in 1957 so it is only a few years older than The Beatles 1963 recording. Most people would know it from the movie which is 1962. You'll have to come up with a better excuse.


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## kalamazoo

My two cents are that I would use "till" or "until" interchangeably in speech but in writing I would always use "until" (probably in part because I never quite know how to spell "till"!).

There is no double negative of any kind involved. Both mean "up to the point that X happens."  X might be "until she stops snoring" or "until she doesn't snore any more" but it is not relevant whether X is positive or negative. X is just the end point.  Something like "until you don't finish your homework" makes little sense although it would be possible grammatically.


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## Packard

kalamazoo said:


> My two cents are that I would use "till" or "until" interchangeably in speech but in writing I would always use "until" (probably in part because I never quite know how to spell "till"!).
> 
> There is no double negative of any kind involved. Both mean "up to the point that X happens." X might be "until she stops snoring" or "until she doesn't snore any more" but it is not relevant whether X is positive or negative. X is just the end point. Something like "until you don't finish your homework" makes little sense although it would be possible grammatically.


 

In speech I only use "til" never "till".


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## Packard

Loob said:


> But _untill _and _'till_ are spelling mistakes, MrP.
> 
> I'm clearly missing something....


 
OK.  I will explain.  I thought the lyrics were written by Sir Paul McCartney because it was a Beatles' song.  So I erroneously blamed him for the spelling "Till" in the lyrics.  But the blame belonged elsewhere so I was in error on that point.  But the lyric should have been "til" and not "till", which was my point.

We appear to be agreeing that "untill" and "till" are misspellings.


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## Packard

Myridon said:


> The song was written in 1957 so it is only a few years older than The Beatles 1963 recording. Most people would know it from the movie which is 1962. You'll have to come up with a better excuse.


 
Myri,

In 1957 I was too young to be paying any attention to Broadway musicals, but by 1963 I was just old enough to be paying attention to the Beatles (but still not paying any attention to Broadway musicals).

If there were no "Google" no one would be questioning my statement in the first place. I, Packard, being a repository of enormous knowledge (but increasing in knowledge daily).

Best Regards (and a good weekend),


Packard


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## JulianStuart

Packard said:


> We appear to be agreeing that "untill" and "till" are misspellings.



Perhaps not.  I, and the others, I think, are saying:

*UNTI**LL* is a misspelling
*TILL* is correct.
*UNTIL* is correct  - it is sometimes written as *'TIL*


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## Packard

JulianStuart said:


> Perhaps not. I, and the others, I think, are saying:
> 
> *UNTI**LL* is a misspelling
> *TILL* is correct.
> *UNTIL* is correct  - it is sometimes written as *'TIL*


 
Yes?  I was taught that "Till" was incorrect; that "'til" was a contraction of "until" so the extra "L" did not belong.


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## JulianStuart

Packard said:


> Yes?  I was taught that "Till" was incorrect; that "'til" was a contraction of "until" so the extra "L" did not belong.


Early in the thread (post #2) it was established that till and until (and its short form 'til) are _separate _words.  It appears you were misled by your teacher in one aspect.


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## Packard

JulianStuart said:


> Early in the thread (post #2) it was established that till and until (and its short form 'til) are _separate _words. It appears you were misled by your teacher in one aspect.


 
Ah, teachers did that to me all the time.  They even told me that if I graduated high school I would become well-liked.  You can't trust teachers.


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## mplsray

I think it is worthwhile to quote from the entries in the Oxford English Dictionary for _till_, _'til_, and _until_.

_till_[1]


> Variant of TILL _prep., conj.,_ and _adv._ or short for UNTIL _prep._ and _conj._
> 
> ...
> 
> 1939    P. G. PERRIN _Index to Eng._ 606   _Till, until,_ (_'til_), these three words are not distinguishable in meaning. Since _'til_ in speech sounds the same as _till_ and looks slightly odd on paper, it may well be abandoned.



In the past, I considered the spelling _'til_ to be nonstandard (as did many usage writers, and here is a link to one who continues to consider it to be nonstandard), but I have come to accept it as standard on the basis of usage. The spelling _'till_ remains nonstandard, but it once got much more use than it does today, as the OED entry below indicates.

_till_[2]


> *Forms:* OE, ME–16 _til_ ... ME– _till_ (in 18th c. often printed _'till_ as if short for UNTIL _prep._ and _conj._).




Under the entry for the word _until_[3], the date of first attribution is "?c1200" and the form used is _inn till_.

[1]'til, conj.
Second edition, 1989; online version November 2010. <http://www.oed.com:80/Entry/201965>; accessed 10 December 2010.

[2]till, prep. and conj. and adv.
Second edition, 1989; online version November 2010. <http://www.oed.com:80/Entry/202001>; accessed 10 December 2010.

[3]until, prep. and conj.
Second edition, 1989; online version November 2010. <http://www.oed.com:80/Entry/218928>; accessed 10 December 2010.


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## 10imcNOV

duden said:


> Well, by "positive verb" I meant a verb without "not", that is actually a positive sentence.
> I thought that both last sentences could have the same meaning but obviously this is not true...
> Is it so that we cannot use a "negative verb" (with "not") after "till" in any phrase?
> 
> Thank you once more!


Well, 
There are some song lyrics with till + negative phrases



10imcNOV said:


> Well,
> There are some song lyrics with till + negative phrases


 
Examples
Till the sun don't shine (grammatically wrong though)
Till she can't hurt anymore



cuchuflete said:


> My (jocular?) sample sentence means, more or less, _I will do X until some people cease to do Y._
> 
> Your sample sentence founders on the rocks of logic: _I will do X until she ceases to do something she cannot do continuously._
> 
> Suppose we change your sentence to remove the logical blockage...
> 
> _I will stay here till she doesn't snore._
> 
> That works. She is snoring. You state that you will remain here until/till/'til that activity comes to an end.


 
Hello,
_I will stay here till she doesn't snore. _
I will definitely say it in another way. The sentence is really odd. Till is not if. 
Get what I mean !?


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## panjandrum

Hello 10imcNOV - welcome to WordReference 

There are several earlier examples of till followed by a negative - see posts 15, 16 & 27.  I think the objection to such structures has been squashed.


10imcNOV said:


> Hello,
> _I will stay here till she doesn't snore. _
> I will definitely say it in another way. The sentence is really odd. Till is not if.
> Get what I mean !?


It is indeed, odd, but nevertheless correct.
She is snoring now.
I am not going to leave until she stops snoring.
_I will stay here till/until she doesn't snore._
It is not intended as a conditional sentence.


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## JulianStuart

10imcNOV said:


> Hello,
> _I will stay here till she doesn't snore. _
> I will definitely say it in another way. The sentence is really odd. Till is not if.
> Get what I mean !?



_I will stay here till she doesn't snore.  = _I will stay here until she stops snoring.  The grammar may be awkward but the_ logic_ is consistent.  The issue of negatives after until is not a grammar one but a logic one.

" I will stay here if she doesn't snore " has a different meaning.  = " If she keeps snoring, I will not stay. "


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## kalamazoo

"I will stay here till she doesn't need my help anymore, then I will go home" would be a perfectly respectable sentence, I think.


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## Myridon

JulianStuart said:


> _I will stay here till she doesn't snore. = _I will stay here until she stops snoring.


Does it mean until she stops snoring for a few seconds, until she has some kind of operation that prevents her from snoring, or until she is dead?


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## Packard

_We will march till there is no more hatred,_
_we will march till there is no more evil,_
_we will march till there are no more lies._
_We will march till justice is served._

It does not sound like conversation, but it does not sound odd to me either.  It sounds dramatic; like oratory.


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## JulianStuart

Myridon said:


> Does it mean until she stops snoring for a few seconds, until she has some kind of operation that prevents her from snoring, or until she is dead?


Something about context?  

This might be a fun multiple choice test for English learners   And of course the right answer would be d) any of the above depending on the context


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## Nerevanin

Hi, I read this thread but I still would want to ask one little question to make it totally clear for me. 

I've always seen "until" as bearing negative meaning which subsequently affects the whole sentence or clause. Example: _You will not watch TV until you do your homework. _In other words, TV is forbidden to you as long as you don't do your homework. I understood from some of the posts in this thread that if I used "till" instead of "until" in the sentence, it would not change the meaning because the two conjunctions are interchangeable. 

My question is that if I wanted to make a sentence with "until" or "till" without the negative meaning, would it be possible? Or should I use another conjuction instead? Example: _As long as it is raining, I'm not going out. _Can I replace "as soon as" with "until / till" while the sense remains the same? Or will the sense change exclusively to "I will go out only when it is raining"? 

It might seem as overthinking it too much but I assure that it would really make it much clearer for me. Thanks in advance for any help!


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## Keith Bradford

1. Positive constructions are just as possible as negative ones: _I want to stay in until the rain stops... He drank until he fell over... I will love you till I die..._
2.  There's no difference in meaning between _till, 'til_ and _until_.  However, there are great differences in frequency, see https://books.google.com/ngrams/gra...rl=t1;,until;,c0;.t1;,' til;,c0;.t1;,till;,c0
3.  I think there are also differences in usage. The shorter forms seem to be to be more poetic, _until _more everyday.  Or is that just me?


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## Loob

Both *until* and _*till*_ seem everyday/non-poetic to me, Keith.  Though I'll grant you that *'til* seems more high-falutin'....


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## JulianStuart

The historical trend may be of interest.  Both AE and BE favoured till over until and have slowly switched so until is now much more common.  The process has gone further in AE than BE (fitting with some thoughts above that one is AE and the other BE


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