# squash vs. pumpkin



## monalisa!

Is there any difference in your experience between  a squash and a pumpkin?
is squash a more general term? is a pumpkin necessarily round?


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## sdgraham

monalisa! said:


> Is there any difference in your experience between  a squash and a pumpkin?
> is squash a more general term? is a pumpkin necessarily round?



A pumpkin is just one variety of squash.

Nobody in the U.s. would know you were talking about a pumpkin if you said 'squash."

I suggest you read up on pumpkins: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumpkin


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## monalisa!

Thanks, sdgraham , 
your link says pumpkins include zucchini, do you agree?


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## sdgraham

Before I can comment, I have to find it.

Where, precisely, did you see it? 

It does say "Pumpkins that are still small and green may be eaten in the same way as squash or zucchini."

(That sentence is not the best since "zucchini" is a type of squash, but doesn't have "squash" in its common name.)


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## monalisa!

_A *pumpkin is a gourd-like squash of the genus Cucurbita and the family Cucurbitaceae (which also includes gourds).[1] It commonly refers to cultivars of any one of the species Cucurbita pepo,
cucurbita pepo is zucchini*_


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## cyberpedant

Has your last post answered your question satisfactorily, monalisa!?


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## monalisa!

Thanks, Cyberdependant
I am waiting to know if by _"pumpkin_" you mean also zucchini. as in post #5
Is pumpkin the same as* gourd* , or the latter is rather BrE?


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## sdgraham

Taxonomy can be confusing

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cucurbita_pepo

"The species _*Cucurbita pepo* is a cultivated plant of the species Cucurbita pepo ssp. fraterna and another Cucurbita species.[2] It includes varieties of squash, gourd, and pumpkin. It is approved for treatment of prostate disorders in Germany.[3]"
_
Note the word  _varieties_. Squash is particularly confusing since it comes in so many forms.

We are, however, talking about language here, not taxonomy. There is no way on God's green earth that anybody in North America would confuse a pumpkin with a zucchini.


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## sdgraham

A pumpkin is not a gourd, although they are of the same genus.

We use the word "gourd" for varieties with hard shells. Pumpkins do not have hard shells and they do not become hard when dried.


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## monalisa!

sdgraham said:


> It does say *"**Pumpkins* that are still small and green may be* eaten in the same way as **squash* or zucchini."
> 
> (That sentence is not the best since "zucchini" is a type of squash, but doesn't have "squash" in its common name.)


I did not notice that, but it is odd as *pumpkin and squash *are synonyms. Squash (cucurbita) includes zucchini (Cucurbita pepo)
I started the thread to check whether people are aware that zucchini are pumpkins.


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## monalisa!

sdgraham said:


> We are, however, talking about language here, not taxonomy. There is no way on God's green earth that anybody in North America would *confuse a pumpkin with a zucchini.*


Sure, common, real language!.
The question is not _confuse with_ but _aware that_ zucchini  are sort of pumpkins. We are discussing it in the Italian forum and for a native speaker it's all in the word:
<<Non-English words removed.  This is the Englsh Only forum>>

Thanks a lot


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## Myridon

monalisa! said:


> _A *pumpkin is a gourd-like squash of the genus Cucurbita and the family Cucurbitaceae (which also includes gourds).[1] It commonly refers to cultivars of any one of the species Cucurbita pepo,
> cucurbita pepo is zucchini*_


Also in the same article:


> Pumpkin is the fruit of the species Cucurbita pepo or Cucurbita mixta. It can refer to a specific variety of the species Cucurbita maxima or Cucurbita moschata, which are all of the genus Cucurbita and the family Cucurbitaceae.[1]


Some squash that are considered to be pumpkins are not cultivars of the same species as zucchini.
A pumpkin is a pumpkin and a zucchini is a zucchini regardless of scientific classification.  Cultivars of the same species (like breeds of dogs) can vary greatly.


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## sdgraham

monalisa! said:


> I did not notice that, but it is odd as *pumpkin and squash *are synonyms. Squash (cucurbita) includes zucchini (Cucurbita pepo)
> I started the thread to check whether people are aware that zucchini are pumpkins.



Back to the beginning

Pumpkin and squash are *not* synonyms in common English usage any more than "coyote" and "dog" are synonyms.

(Perhaps someone here (AE)can help out the OP by pointing out that if one asked for "squash" pie or wanted to "carve" a "squash" for Halloween, he/she would be considered quite daft.

It could be, however, that the OP is simply trying to validate a preconceived notion and not looking for help.


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## monalisa!

sdgraham said:


> It could be, however, that the OP is simply trying t*o validate a preconceived notion *and not looking for help.


Not at all, I thought so myself, but they are synonyms in taxonomy squash, pumpkin, gourd


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## Myridon

monalisa! said:


> I did not notice that, but it is odd as *pumpkin and squash *are synonyms.


They are not synonyms.  "Great Danes" and "chihuahuas" are the same species, but you wouldn't say those are synonyms, would you?


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## cyberpedant

Pumpkin and squash are members of the same family but their names are not synonymous. This North American native would never claim that "pumpkins" are identical to "squash."


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## Myridon

monalisa! said:


> synonyms in taxonomy


This idea mixes terms from two completely different fields.  Put it out of your head.


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## monalisa!

Myridon said:


> A pumpkin is a pumpkin and a zucchini is a zucchini regardless of scientific classification.  Cultivars of the same species (like breeds of dogs) can vary greatly.


pumpkin/squash / gourd ( _genus: Cucurbita and Lagenaria_) vs. zucchini (Cucurbita pepo _species_) is like citrus (genus) vs. lemmon/orange/cedar etc (species)


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## monalisa!

sdgraham said:


> Taxonomy can be confusing
> 
> See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cucurbita_pepo
> 
> "The species _*Cucurbita pepo* is a cultivated plant of the *species* Cucurbita pepo ssp. fraterna and another Cucurbita species.[2] *It includes varieties of squash, gourd, and pumpkin*. It is approved for treatment of prostate disorders in Germany.[3]"
> _


You are right, (wiki , not taxonomy is confusing) that article is a mess: Cucurbita is a genus and Cucurbita Pepo is a species as you can read under the picture

Edit:
I checked with the SOED and they say  that a pumpkin is
... a fruit of several plants of the* gourd *family , esp. the vegetable marrow_ (Cucurbita Pepo)_ and the winter squash (_Cucurbita maxima). In all languafìges w_e all associate only the latter with *pumpkin* , but , according to Oxford, zucchini is a pumpkin.


Thank you all for your kind help!


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## RM1(SS)

monalisa! said:


> according to Oxford, zucchini is a pumpkin.



Kindly explain how you arrived at this peculiar conclusion.


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## Sabretooth

I would never say "squash" to mean "pumpkin," nor would I ever refer to a "zucchini" as a "pumpkin."  A zucchini is a summer squash, not a pumpkin.


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## JulianStuart

In the wiki under Cucurbita, the genus, are the following species (plus others, mainly gourds of different types, but the list of 4 below suffices).  Each one exists as several different subspecies or cultivars/crosses/varieties etc. with their own "common" names.  For example, the listings under C. pepo are different plants - meaning a field pumpkin is different from yellow summer squash and from zucchini etc.  The listing does not mean that those names are just different ones for the same plant.

C. maxima – winter squash, pumpkin
C. mixta – pipian, cushaw pumpkin
C. moschata – butternut squash, 'Dickinson' pumpkin
C. pepo – acorn squash, field pumpkin, yellow summer squash, zucchini, small multicolored gourds


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## WyomingSue

Speaking as a gardener who just picked a basket of zucchini, in the gardening parts of the U.S. we have: zucchini (a prolific long green summer squash), other summer squash (which may be other shapes of green or any shape of soft-skinned yellow), winter squash (hard skinned of various shapes and colors) and pumpkin(which is hard-skinned and normally round or oval and orange). If you want to get fancy you can buy seeds for white pumpkins, but if you ask a child to draw a pumpkin she will draw a big orange circle.
Discussions about scientific names are a different issue altogether.

Edit: just to note, a gourd is very hard-skinned, a pumpkin's skin is medium hard but you can cut it with a knife. The summer squashes can be eaten unpeeled.


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## monalisa!

RM1(SS) said:


> Kindly explain how you arrived at this *peculiar* conclusion.


Hi, RM1(SS)
I started this thread as I wanted to know how English speaking people feel about these various terms, as I was posting in the Italian English forum.
I found out that they feel like all other people, Spanish, Italian or other: that  zucchini *are not *( are different from)* pumpkins.

*But I have grown them since childhood and I know, _as any gardener,_ that _zucchini_ (= piccola zucca [little/ baby _pumpkin_s_] in Italian it is plural_), courgette (petit courge _[little pumpkin]_) are just a* species of pumpkin* which are _usually_ eaten before they reach full growth, but, if you let them grow they become regular pumpkins. The only difference is the they would not last through winter, that's why _"summer squash"
_This conclusion is suported by science (taxonomy) and reliable sources like SOED:

*(*Cucurbitacee, SOED*) gourd, *family: _Cucurbitacee;_ genera: [_Cucumis_], _Cucurbita__, Lagenaria (siceraria _commonly referred to as_ [bottle-]*gourds *_SOED)
*
gourd-pumpkin-squash*...genera*: *_Cucurbita, Lagenaria
_*pumpkin *(SOED)..............genus: _Cucurbita_ species: _Maxima = winter/ autumn squash  (_commonly referred to as_ *pumpkin*); species: Pepo *marrow *_(SOED)

[vegetable] *marrow*...........genus:_ Cucurbita_ species:_ Pepo  (also called *courgette* and *zucchini*_ in AmE)
........................................genus:_ Cucurbita_ species: _Muschata_ cv. Tromboncino =_ climbing zucchini_
........................................genus: _Lagenaria_ species: _siceraria (zucchini _before the discovery of America, or bottle-gourds)
marrows are usually referred to as _summer squash
_

Please add your comments as to the usage of terms in your part of the world!


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## JulianStuart

Using terms currently used in the English-speaking world (not based on any words currently used in Italian): Zucchini do not turn into pumpkins if you let them grow, (they turn into what is known as a marrow in the UK - I have no idea what the folks in the US call them if you let them grow that size, but it is definitely not pumpkin).  Small pumpkins are not zucchini in English. Zucchini are not a species of pumpkin.  Zucchini are a species in the genus Cucurbita, and so are pumpkins, and so are many gourds.    They are all different.


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## sdgraham

monalisa! said:


> But I have grown them since childhood and I know, _as any gardener,_ that _zucchini_ (= piccola zucca [little/ baby _pumpkin_s_] in Italian it is plural_), courgette (petit courge _[little pumpkin]_) are just a* species of pumpkin* which are _usually_ eaten before they reach full growth, but, if you let them grow they become regular pumpkins.



!. Throwing around generalities, such as "any gardener" to support a hopeless argument is usually not productive.
2. We have a half-acre vegetable garden (.2 hectares) and have raised many zucchini and pumpkins, as they are known in the U.S. I think we can be included in the "any gardener" category.
3. That which we know as zucchini do not grow into that which we know as pumpkins. They just keep growing into bigger and bigger long and green zucchini.

Like this one

(Just as Chihuahuas do not grow into St. Bernards)

Julian Stuart is spot-on.


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## dadane

Courgette in BE = Zucchini in AE. They are green and elongated, and stay greenish and elongated even if you let them grow to seed. I have grown courgettes but never pumpkins, I don't like them. However, I have seen the term 'courgette' applied to other squashes in Europe, in particular, small yellow UFO shaped ones.


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## monalisa!

JulianStuart said:


> Using terms* currently used in the English-speaking world* (not based on any words currently used in Italian):...
> Zucchini are not a species of pumpkin.  Zucchini are a* species *in the genus Cucurbita, and so are* pumpkins*, and so are many gourds. .


Hi Julian, please , don't shoot the pianist ,_ relata refero!_

I just quoted SOED, if you do not have quick access to it, I'll quote the full text:
*pumpkin* (Vol II p. 2413):

The large egg-shaped or globose fruit  of several plants of the gourd family, esp. varieties of the vegetable marrow_ Cucurbita Pepo, _and winter squash_ Cucurbita maxima.....
_
The marrow, full grown or _baby marrow (AmE= zucchini) _is a pumpkin (it was even given first choice in the dictionary), zucchini is a baby pumpkin
a full-grown marrow is an egg-shaped pumpkin, it gradually loses its taste, then gets a disgusting taste then in a few months (before Christmas) becomes an empty, fragile shell full of seeds good for sowing , as any gardener knows. Thats why it is eaten when it is small, that is why it is called summer squash.

The misunterstandig arises (in all languages and I was surprised_ myself_) because we identify pumpkins with the_ species_ Cucurbita maxima, the winter squash, instead of the _genus Cucurbita._

We would do the same mistake if we identified citrus with lemmon and said that oranges are not citrus.


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## JulianStuart

monalisa! said:


> I started the thread to check whether people are aware that zucchini are pumpkins.


I find your edited quotes from the dictionaries confusing.  I found some straightforward unedited ones from this Oxford dictionary


> zucchini  noun (plural same or zucchinis)North American
> *a green variety of smooth-skinned summer squash*


.


> pumpkin noun
> 1a *large rounded orange-yellow fruit with a thick rind, *edible flesh, and many seeds.
> informal used as an affectionate term of address, especially to a child.
> 2the plant of the gourd family that produces the pumpkin, having tendrils and large lobed leaves and native to warm regions of America.
> Genus Cucurbita, family Cucurbitaceae: several species, in particular C. pepo



None of the native English speakers who responded agree with the assertion that "zucchini are pumpkins".  The descriptions from the dictionaries for the two are different (in bold above).  The descriptions from the members are different.  Most of the responders are from the US but the two who are not also disagree.  None of us use the term "pumpkin" as a general word to cover the genus Cucurbita.  So we are "aware that zucchini are not pumpkins".
_
Perhaps_ the SOED and some people (but apparently no-one from the US) do use the term pumpkin that way. Members of that group _might_ agree that zucchini are members of the large group generally called pumpkins.


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## bennymix

Monalisa said, //But I have grown them since childhood and I know, _as any gardener,_ that _zucchini_ (= piccola zucca [little/ baby _pumpkin_s_] in Italian it is plural_), courgette (petit courge _[little pumpkin]_) are just a* species of pumpkin* which are _usually_ eaten before they reach full growth, but, if you let them grow they become regular pumpkins.//

ML, your question was about English common usage, so the translation arguments above are not relevant.  The alleged fact that 'piccola zucca' means literally 'baby pumpkins' is neither here nor there.  Dealing with your French example, 'petit courge' need not be translated 'little pumpkin'.  _Courge_ can simply be translated as 'squash'.   Scientific classifications do not trump common usage.  Technically (botanically), the cashew nut is a fruit, but no one calls them fruits.    If asked to buy some fruit for guests at dinner, I do not go and buy cashew nuts, and say, "Well, they are really fruits, dear."

There was a famous court case in the US, _*Nix v. Hedden*,_ 149 U.S. 304 (1893), which decided that tomatoes were vegetables (according to common usage).  The botanical fact that tomatoes are fruits is another matter.  No one, US, expects a 'fruit bowl' to contain tomatoes.

As per Julian and others, zuchinni, or 'zukes', if left to grow, become giant zukes (AE).   And pumpkins, picked very early and green are still pumpkins (AE).


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## lucas-sp

Not to jump on you, monalisa, but you are *dead wrong*.





monalisa! said:


> The marrow, full grown or _baby marrow (AmE= zucchini) _is a *pumpkin* (it was even given first choice in the dictionary), zucchini is a baby *pumpkin *
> 
> a full-grown marrow is an egg-shaped *pumpkin*, it gradually loses its taste, then gets a disgusting taste then in a few months (before Christmas) becomes an empty, fragile shell full of seeds good for sowing , as any gardener knows.
> 
> Thats why it is eaten when it is small, that is why it is called summer *squash*.


I think what's happening is that you've confused "squash" and "pumpkin." A "pumpkin" is a kind of "squash," but not all "squash" are "pumpkins." In American English, "squash" is the term for the whole class of vegetables (zucchini, pumpkins, squash) and "pumpkin" is the term for a sub-variety.

If you correct this error, your previously-cited sentences are correct:





> The marrow, full grown or _baby marrow (AmE= zucchini) _is a *squash* (it was even given first choice in the dictionary), zucchini is a baby *squash *
> 
> a full-grown marrow is an egg-shaped *squash*, it gradually loses its taste, then gets a disgusting taste then in a few months (before Christmas) becomes an empty, fragile shell full of seeds good for sowing , as any gardener knows.


My sense is that this is difficult for Europeans to grasp because, quite simply, pumpkins are vanishingly rare in Europe, while they are a _huge_ part of American culture. Pumpkins are the things we carve into Jack-o-Lanterns at Halloween, and the things that make the pie we eat at Thanksgiving. They are a very specific, and culturally distinct, portion of the general category of "squash."


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## monalisa!

I started this thread to learn how  native speakers feel about squash and pumpkin, and I am still eager to learn.

(I was asked to substantiate my statements about _zucchini being pumpkins_ (and squash I suppose) and I complied.
Someone found my explanations unsatisfactory or confusing and I quote SOED verbatim.

If you all refuse the authority of SOED in "...defining terms currently used in the English-speaking world", I cannot comment on that.

I suppose you trust the Merriam Webster, here is its current definition:
Definition of* PUMPKIN**1*
*a* *:* a fruit of any of various cultivars of herbaceous plants (_Cucurbita pepo, C. maxima, C. moschata,_ and _C. mixta_ syn._C. argyrosperma_) of the gourd family that is typically round ....

it sounds unmistakably clear (at least to me, but maybe I cannot understand properly): any fruit of the genus Cucurbita_,_ _including_ the genus_ pepo *(zucchini) is a pumpkin. *_If you want to argue, argue with Oxford and Webster, not with me, pleeeeease !
I have shown you where is your mistake:
" Zucchini are a *species in the genus Cucurbita, and **so are pumpkins,":

* _pumpkin_ refers to  a genus but is used to  refer to some species (winter squash)  and in particular to the genus: Cucurbita _maxima._ Most people identify_ pumpkin _with_ winter squash _and therefore assume that_ Cucurbita pepo is not a pumpkin)_

I'll be glad to read some comments about the difference between squash and pumpkin.

Thanks, everybody


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## RM1(SS)

As was said before, pumpkins and zucchini are different varieties of of _Cucurbita pepo_, just as dachshunds and wolves are different varieties of _Canis lupus_.  They are *not* the same thing.


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## PaulQ

All pumpkins are squashes, but not all squashes are pumpkins.

There are people who will lazily and informally refer to anything that resembles a pumpkin (externally and/or internally) as a pumpkin; avoid this, especially when shopping for food.


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## monalisa!

PaulQ said:


> All pumpkins are squashes, but not all squashes are pumpkins.
> 
> There are people who will lazily and informally refer to anything that resembles a pumpkin (externally and/or internally) as a pumpkin; avoid this, especially when shopping for food.


Thanks a lot , PaulQ, I am beginning to see a light
Can you expand on that, please 

From SOED and even infamous _Wiki _I got the idea that squash is a more technical term (summer/winter) squash, used by gourmet and by botanists to name plants, and that pumpkin was a more common, ordinary-people term and is used less frequently in the names of the plants.
But according to taxonomy they are equivalent as they refer to all species in the genus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cucurbita.


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## PaulQ

This is a case of synecdoche. The pumpkin subset (i.e. those things that are really pumpkins) is far commoner than all the other subsets of the squash family and therefore the whole set of squashes and any member of the squash family may be referred to as "a pumpkin."

Therefore the word 'pumpkin' has two meanings* - (i) a real pumpkin - i.e. the large orange gourd that is carved for Halloween and (ii) more or less any squash.

You will see from the many posts above that meaning (ii) is obviously a meaning that seems to be unusual to the majority of people here. The people here, from both sides of the Atlantic, are well-read and well-informed. I therefore suggest that you follow their practice avoid meaning (ii) and use *squash *as the term for the *family of gourds* and *pumpkin *for the pie ingredient and the large orange gourd popular at Halloween.



* there are other meaning but they do not concern this discussion.


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## Myridon

Let's try this again...


monalisa! said:


> From SOED and even infamous _Wiki _I got the idea that *dog* is a more technical term (hunting/working) dogs, used by *dog-shows* and by *biologists* to name *animals*, and that *chihuahua *was a more common, ordinary-people term and is used less frequently in the names of the *animals*.
> But according to taxonomy *they are equivalent* as they refer to all species in the genus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canis.


Does that seem reasonable to you? Do you think wolves, jackals, coyotes, and all breeds of dogs are *equivalent*?


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## monalisa!

PaulQ said:


> I therefore suggest that you follow their practice avoid meaning (ii) and use *squash *as the term for the *family of gourds* and *pumpkin *for the pie ingredient.


Thanks, Paul, of course in practice I do that, and I confessed I learned only researching for this post that zucchini _(Cucurbita pepo_) is just a squash (or pumpkin).



sdgraham said:


> Nobody in the U.s. would know you were talking about a pumpkin if you said 'squash."


What about UK, would anybody know that squash is pumpkin?


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## monalisa!

Myridon said:


> ... Do you think wolves, jackals, coyotes, and all breeds of dogs are *equivalent*?


I you quote me , you should quote me right:
_Canis_ is a genus (like Cucurbita = squash= pumpkin)  and dog a species _Canls Lupus (familiaris ssp.) _(like _Cucurbita Pepo = zucchini)._ If  you want to make a comparison then I think _ all breeds of dog is a canis _


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## PaulQ

They would probably know that a pumpkin is a type of squash, but not that squash is a [type of] pumpkin (because that is wrong.)

My aunt used to grow gourds at one time for their decorative appearance, and she referred (correctly) to all squashes as 'gourds'.

I suggest you do a small experiment. In Google Images, type in "Pumpkin" and see how many things are shown that are not of the large, orange/yellow, roughly spherical type of gourd used at Halloween.

The deal is that you give me $1 for each example of a pumpkin that is large, orange/yellow, roughly spherical and of the type used at Halloween, and I give you $10 for each one that is not. (I've done the experiment and you owe me $1,016 and I owe you nothing... )


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## monalisa!

PaulQ said:


> My aunt used to grow gourds at one time for their decorative appearance, and she referred (correctly) to *all squashes as 'gourds'..*.


Your aunt was right as gourd is a hypernym (family), but it includes also cucumbers, melons etc. which are not squashes. Not all gourds ar squashes.But,

Please correct me if I am wrong : all zucchini(s) are  (summer) squashes ergo all zucchini are squashes


> I've done the experiment and *you owe me $1,016 *and I owe you nothing...)


You're smart Paul,, I have done that game before a started the thread, but the problem is that if you type "squash" you get mostly gyms.
But the single Buttercup squash gets some 80 000 hits and if you look at the pictures (https://www.google.it/search?q="but...urce=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=rTEKUsDzNsXf4QTNtYG4Dg)
can anyone deny that that squash is a pumpkin allright?


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## PaulQ

> Please correct me if I am wrong : all zucchini(s) are  (summer) squashes ergo all zucchini are squashes



All zucchini are summer squashes
All summer squashes are squashes
Therefore, all zucchini are squashes

Your logic is impeccable.


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## JustKate

monalisa! said:


> Your aunt was right as gourd is a hypernym (family), but it includes also cucumbers, melons etc. which are not squashes. Not all gourds ar squashes.But,
> 
> Please correct me if I am wrong : all zucchini(s) are  (summer) squashes ergo all zucchini are squashes
> 
> You're smart Paul,, I have done that game before a started the thread, but the problem is that if you type "squash" you get mostly gyms.
> But the single Buttercup squash gets some 80 000 hits and if you look at the pictures (https://www.google.it/search?q=%22buttercup%20squash%22&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.50500085,d.bGE,pv.xjs.s.en_US.ciY8R2R6XC8.O&biw=1241&bih=593&hl=it&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=rTEKUsDzNsXf4QTNtYG4Dg)
> can anyone deny that that squash is a pumpkin allright?



Monalisa, we all "deny that squash is a pumpkin." Every single one of us.

Zucchini are squash. Pumpkins are squash. But that doesn't mean that all squash are pumpkins, just as  it doesn't mean that all zucchini are pumpkins. Some of those images you linked to are pumpkins, as far as I can tell, but some are not.


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## sound shift

monalisa! said:


> What about UK, would anybody know that squash is pumpkin?


I can only speak for myself. I would have said to myself, "They are related". Pumpkin is not popular in the UK. My only contact with it is via those young people who have adopted the American custom of Halloween. Squash rarely appears on our plates. I imagine that this lack of popularity affects people's grasp of the relationship between these two vegetables.


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## monalisa!

PaulQ said:


> Your logic is impeccable.


hoorah, , let's try this now (more risky):
all zucchini are Cucurbita pepo, all Cucurbita pepo are pumpkins (Webster, SOED) all zucchini are pumpkins


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## monalisa!

sound shift said:


> I can only speak for myself. I would have said to myself, "They are related". Pumpkin is not popular in the UK. .


I suppose the do not grow in UK, as they require at least 6 months of heat, we plant them at the end of April and harvest them at the end of October.
I suppose gourd is more familiar. But do ordinary people think that they are just the decorative botttle-gourds, or know that all squashes are gourds?


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## sound shift

I doubt whether most ordinary people here think about squashes at all. "Gourd" is not an everyday word here.


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## monalisa!

JustKate said:


> Some of those images you linked to are pumpkins, as far as I can tell, but some are not.


That is interesting and _odd_, Kate, as *all *images refer to the same fruit : the buttercup squash. Could you tell us which fruits are not pumpkins, are they more numerous than the pumpkins ? And more than anything , _(that would give us a clue, at last)_ what is the standard, the criterion you use to decide?

Anyway, we did find some squashes that are pumpkins, to begin with.


----------



## JustKate

Monalisa, may I ask why you keep saying that all zucchini are pumpkins? You've been told clearly and unequivocally that they are not, so why are you insisting that they are? All zucchini are squash, and all pumpkins are squash, but that doesn't make the reverse true. 

Here is an article from the University of Illinois Cooperative Extension Service that explains the differences between the various squashes pretty well. It's written specifically for gardeners, so perhaps you'll find it useful.

As for gourds, I use that only for the the hard-shelled, uneatable squashes, and I think that's pretty common. Botanists might call other things gourds, but I don't think the regular gardening public does.

_(Cross-posted with Monalisa)_


----------



## Myridon

monalisa! said:


> I you quote me , you should quote me right:
> _Canis_ is a genus (like Cucurbita = squash= pumpkin)  and dog a species _Canls Lupus (familiaris ssp.) _(like _Cucurbita Pepo = zucchini)._ If  you want to make a comparison then I think _ all breeds of dog is a canis _


  You said all things in the same GENUS are equivalent, therefore jackals and chihuahuas are exactly the same thing. I can trade your pet for a jackal and you would never notice the difference.  I would never say that chihuahuas and poodles are equivalent and they are different breeds within the same subspecies (three levels down from genus and they are not the same thing).  You're also ignoring the fact that not all the things that we call "pumpkin" are cultivars of the species _Curcubita pepo_.  There is not a one-to-one relationship between pumpkin and species. 
You say you want to learn, but you seem to only want to have things your way.


----------



## lucas-sp

monalisa! said:


> I started this thread to learn how native speakers feel about squash and pumpkin, and I am still eager to learn.


No, I don't think you are "eager to learn." If you were "eager to learn" you would not ignore the thoughtful and considerate advice and information provided to you by native speakers. The statement "a zucchini is a pumpkin" is absolutely wrong in English; however, the statement "a zucchini and a pumpkin are both squashes" is absolutely correct. *"**Squash" is the generic term, "pumpkin" can only refer to the specific shape of squash used in pumpkin pie, carved jack-o-lanterns, etc.*


monalisa! said:


> But the single Buttercup squash gets some 80 000 hits and if you look at the pictures (https://www.google.it/search?q="but...urce=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=rTEKUsDzNsXf4QTNtYG4Dg)
> can anyone deny that that squash is a pumpkin allright?


The butternut squash *is not a pumpkin*. Despite its color, it has that distinctive lute-like shape, and is not mostly globular with longitudinal veins. There are pumpkin varieties that are white, pale orange, and even light blue; the key feature of a pumpkin is its *shape*.

Now, here's where things get really weird: most pumpkins don't taste that great. So when I make pumpkin pie I normally use the flesh of either the _acorn squash_ or the _k__abocha squash_. Those two varieties of squash taste more like delicious pumpkin than pumpkins do, and their flesh is a more beautiful, vibrant orange. However, I still do not think of them as types of "pumpkin." They're just squash that are very similar to pumpkin.


monalisa! said:


> Hi, RM1(SS)
> I started this thread as I wanted to know how English speaking people feel about these various terms, as I was posting in the Italian English forum.
> I found out that they feel like all other people, Spanish, Italian or other: that  zucchini *are not *( are different from)* pumpkins.
> 
> *But I have grown them since childhood and I know, _as any gardener,_ that _zucchini_ (= piccola zucca [little/ baby _pumpkin_s_] in Italian it is plural_), courgette (petit courge _[little pumpkin]_) are just a* species of pumpkin* which are _usually_ eaten before they reach full growth, but, if you let them grow they become regular pumpkins.


Some languages make distinctions that others do not. However, I very much doubt that "all other people" agree that zucchini and pumpkin are identical words, especially since English speakers certainly do _not_. Your French is wrong as well; for the French "courgette" means "little squash" ("courge" = "squash") but the words for "pumpkin" are entirely different. French in fact distinguishes between "squash" and "pumpkin"; Italian, however, does not - probably because pumpkins are New World vegetables that never made it to Italy.

I think that you have made a _translation error_. "Courgette" and "zucchini," literally translated, would be "little squash," and "courge" and "zucca" translate to "squash." But you have mistakenly translated "zucca" as "pumpkin," and then all your other errors follow from there.

You also misread the dictionary:





> I suppose you trust the Merriam Webster, here is its current definition:
> Definition of* PUMPKIN**1*
> *a* *:* a fruit of any of various cultivars of herbaceous plants (_Cucurbita pepo, C. maxima, C. moschata,_ and _C. mixta_ syn._C. argyrosperma_) of the gourd family that is typically round ....


If the pumpkin is "a fruit (from one of these families) that is typically round," that is not the same as saying that a pumpkin is "any fruit from one of these families." The definition points out that the vegetables that English speakers classify as "pumpkins" actually belong to several different species in the genus Cucurbita, but it does not say that any plant belonging to the genus Cucurbita is called a "pumpkin" by English speakers. 

Here's another example, again from Merriam-Webster:





> *blimp*
> _noun_\ˈblimp\
> 
> *Definition of BLIMP*
> 
> *1**:* an airship that maintains its form by pressure from contained gas


I could read this definition incorrectly and say that a blimp is "an airship, any airship." But that would miss the point of the definition, which tells me that a blimp is a _specific type_ of airship.

Summarizing:

a blimp is an airship     an airship is a blimp      some airships are blimps 
a square is a rectangle     a rectangle is a square      some rectangles are squares 
a pumpkin is a squash      a squash is a pumpkin      some squashes are pumpkins ​(also right, but I can't use any more check marks in this post)


----------



## Myridon

monalisa! said:


> But the single Buttercup squash gets some 80 000 hits and if you look at the pictures (https://www.google.it/search?q=%22buttercup%20squash%22&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.50500085,d.bGE,pv.xjs.s.en_US.ciY8R2R6XC8.O&biw=1241&bih=593&hl=it&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=rTEKUsDzNsXf4QTNtYG4Dg)
> can anyone deny that that squash is a pumpkin allright?


Buttercup squash is a variety of _Cucurbita maxima_ not _Cucurbita pepo._  Remember that you're insisting that all pumpkins are _Cucurbita pepo._
Regardless, Google is only as good as its secret search algorithm and the ability of random, unedited people to label their pictures correctly. If you scroll down, there's quite a clear picture of a butter*nut* squash (a variety of _Cucurbita moschata_).


----------



## JustKate

monalisa! said:


> That is interesting and _odd_, Kate, as *all *images refer to the same fruit : the buttercup squash. Could you tell us which fruits are not pumpkins, are they more numerous than the pumpkins ? And more than anything , _(that would give us a clue, at last)_ what is the standard, the criterion you use to decide?
> 
> Anyway, we did find some squashes that are pumpkins, to begin with.



Yes, there are squashes that are pumpkins. No one denies this. What we disagree with is your contention that *all* squashes are pumpkins. Because they aren't. As for buttercup squashes vs. pumpkins, I confess that I've never heard of a buttercup squash before. Butter*nut* squash, yes (here's an image), but buttercup squash was unknown to me until I read your post. Some of the really round ones look something like green pumpkins, but so what? Some zucchini look at bit like cucumbers, but that doesn't mean all zucchini are cucumbers.


----------



## monalisa!

JustKate said:


> Monalisa, may I ask* why you keep saying* that all zucchini are pumpkins?
> Here is an article from the University of Illinois Cooperative Extension Service that explains


Thanks a lot , Kate, for your splendid assist, you do not trust SOED and webster, now I can quote from a link you trust:
Heading: *Pumpkin 
Cucurbita pepo; C. maxima; C. moschata; C. mixta*


from the text:*Cultivars*
"Pumpkins and squash belong to the Cucurbitaceae family. Generally *pumpkins belong to the **Cucurbita pepo, *_C. maxima_, and _C. moschata_ species. The *C. pepo **species are usually recognized as the true pumpkin. *Pumpkin varieties within this group have orange-yellow flowers, and fruits with bright orange skin and hard, woody, distinctly furrowed stems. This group also includes gourds, vegetable marrow, Pattypan summer squash, scallop summer squash, gray and black zucchini and summer crookneck squash...."

If you consider that C. pepo means what is in US referred to as *zucchini,* _(almost all species of C. pepo are zucchini) _you can understand why I keep saying that zucchini are pumpkins, now thanks to you I can say
zucchini are the* true* pumpkins

I beg you all  to forget about this side-dispute and tell us what is in your view the difference between squash  and pumpkin
We have ascertained that you do not believe that zucchini are pumpkins.
.
Kate, You'll oblige me if you tell me if you agree with lucas and you sort out squashes and pumpkins by the shape or as you hint by the look.
Do you think butternut squash can be referred to aas an oblong pumpkin?


----------



## sdgraham

monalisa! said:


> I beg you all  to forget about this side-dispute and give your views about squash vs, pumpkin



All you have to do is review post # 2, and stop flogging a dead horse.


----------



## JustKate

monalisa! said:


> Thanks a lot , Kate, for your splendid assist, you do not trust SOED and webster, now I can quote from a link you trust:
> Heading: *Pumpkin
> Cucurbita pepo; C. maxima; C. moschata; C. mixta*
> 
> 
> from the text:*Cultivars*
> "Pumpkins and squash belong to the Cucurbitaceae family. Generally *pumpkins belong to the **Cucurbita pepo, *_C. maxima_, and _C. moschata_ species. The *C. pepo **species are usually recognized as the true pumpkin. *Pumpkin varieties within this group have orange-yellow flowers, and fruits with bright orange skin and hard, woody, distinctly furrowed stems. This group also includes gourds, vegetable marrow, Pattypan summer squash, scallop summer squash, gray and black zucchini and summer crookneck squash...."
> 
> If you consider that C. pepo means what is in US referred to as *zucchini,* you can understand why I keep saying that zucchini are pumpkins, now thanks to you I can say
> zucchini are the* true* pumpkins
> 
> I beg you all  to forget about this side-dispute and give your views about squash vs, pumpkin
> .
> Kate, You'll oblige me if you tell me if you agree with lucas and you sort out squashes and pumpkins by the shape



Monalisa, *no* native English speaker would agree that a zucchini is a "true pumpkin." What an English speaker will accept is that both zucchini and pumpkins are members of the _Cucurbita_ family. But the only members of the Cucurbita family that would be considered a "true pumpkin," whatever that means, is the variety of squash that has the characteristics of a pumpkin, which includes its appearance, its rind and, in the case of pumpkins intended for the table, its taste.

I think where the confusion lies is that, as Lucas has tried to explain, what makes something a "pumpkin" isn't so much the species as the shape, color and other characteristics. 

What that text is trying to tell you is that there are true pumpkins, which belong to the _Curcubita pepo_ family. This doesn't preclude the *fact* that there are there are nonetheless lots of other squashes in that family that aren't pumpkins, such as zucchini. But there are also other squashes that are considered pumpkins (e.g., _Cucurbita maxima, _or giant pumpkins) based on how they look and how they are used, and to botanists, these aren't "true pumpkins."

Do you see what I'm trying to say here? That text is saying that "true pumpkins" belong to the _Cucurbita pepo_ family. It isn't saying that everything in the _Cucurbito pepo_ family is a pumpkin.


----------



## monalisa!

Myridon said:


> Remember that you're insisting that* all pumpkins are Cucurbita pepo.*


You keep misquoting me, I did not insist, and ,please be fair, and quote my posts correctly.
_I simply quoted SOED,Webster and wiki that state that all plants that belong to the genus Cucurbita are pumpkins.  C. pepo belong to it. fullstop.
I do not think and do not care if zucchini are pumpkins._


----------



## lucas-sp

monalisa! said:


> Thanks a lot , Kate, for your splendid assist, you do not trust SOED and webster, now I can quote from a link you trust:
> Heading: *Pumpkin
> Cucurbita pepo; C. maxima; C. moschata; C. mixta*
> 
> 
> from the text:*Cultivars*
> "Pumpkins and squash belong to the Cucurbitaceae family. Generally *pumpkins belong to the **Cucurbita pepo, *_C. maxima_, and _C. moschata_ species. The *C. pepo **species are usually recognized as the true pumpkin. *Pumpkin varieties within this group have orange-yellow flowers, and fruits with bright orange skin and hard, woody, distinctly furrowed stems. This group also includes gourds, vegetable marrow, Pattypan summer squash, scallop summer squash, gray and black zucchini and summer crookneck squash...."
> 
> If you consider that C. pepo means what is in US referred to as *zucchini,* _(almost all species of C. pepo are zucchini) _you can understand why I keep saying that zucchini are pumpkins, now thanks to you I can say
> zucchini are the* true* pumpkins


You can say whatever the heck you want. It doesn't mean you'll say it correctly, or elegantly, or naturally, or that people will enjoy speaking with you. If you keep trying to tell a native speaker that s/he is wrong and pumpkins are actually zucchini, you will probably get ignored or get punched. 

Now, logically, your argument here is:

A) Most examples of what are called "pumpkins" belong to the species C. pepo.
B) The most famous variety of C. pepo is the zucchini.
C) All pumpkins are zucchini.

That is not logically consistent. The same argument would be:

A) Most of the tiny cars you see nowadays are manufactured by Daimler.
B) The most famous cars manufactured by Daimler are the Mercedes-Benzes.
C) All tiny cars are Mercedes-Benzes. (_or, even worse, "the Mercedes-Benz is the true tiny car"_​)

_(when, in fact, it would be wrong to say that a Smart "is a Mercedes-Benz" and even more wrong to say that a Mini Cooper "is a Mercedes-Benz")_


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## lucas-sp

monalisa! said:


> _I simply quoted SOED,Webster and wiki that state that all plants that belong to the genus Cucurbita are pumpkins.  C. pepo belong to it. fullstop._


You actually haven't produced any definitions which state that "all plants belonging to the genus Cucurbita are pumpkins." You've cherry-picked and misquoted several definitions (which you haven't cited or read in their entirety), but none of them have claimed what you say they've claimed.


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## monalisa!

sdgraham said:


> All you have to do is review post # 2, and stop flogging a dead horse.


Hi sdgraham,  I'm flogging no horse, dead or alive (thanks for the explanation). I agree with you that pumpkins are generally the round, big winter squash and the gourds on Halloween and that zucchini are not considered something different from pumpkins. I thoughtt so myself until yesterday.
If you care, you might concede that all major dictionaries tell a different story, I know you as a fair guy  and a great poster  .( If you do not, it's alright).
it is very easy to tell a zucchini from a pumpkin.


Coul you please now tell me if you think the fruits in the pictures are pumpkins, and how do you sort them out?


----------



## JustKate

monalisa! said:


> You keep misquoting me, I did not insist, and ,please be fair, and quote my posts correctly.
> _I simply quoted SOED,Webster and wiki that state that all plants that belong to the genus Cucurbita are pumpkins.  C. pepo belong to it. fullstop.
> I do not think and do not care if zucchini are pumpkins._



I am looking at _The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary_ right this minute, and it doesn't say anything about "all plants that belong to the genus Cucurbita are pumpkins." Here is exactly how it defines _pumpkins_ (2002 edition, page 2402): "The large yellow egg-shaped or globose fruit of several plants of the gourd family, esp. varieties of the vegetable marrow, _Cucurbita pepo_, and winter squash, _C. maxima_, which is eaten cooked as a vegetable or in a pie; any of the plants producing such a fruit."

What that means is exactly what we've been trying to tell you all along, which is that most things that are called "pumpkins" belong to the _Cucurbita pepo_ or _Cucurbita maxima_ families. It *does not* mean nor say nor imply that everything else that belongs to the family is also a pumpkin.


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## PaulQ

monalisa! said:


> hoorah, , let's try this now (more risky):
> all zucchini are Cucurbita pepo, all Cucurbita pepo are pumpkins (Webster, SOED) all zucchini are pumpkins


Your logic is abysmal. You are a disgrace to the philosophers of Ancient Rome!

pumpkin (_Cucurbita pepo_ *var. ovifera*)
*Zucchini (*_Cucurbita pepo_* var. cylindrical)*

all zucchini (_Cucurbita pepo _*var. cylindrical*) are *of the family* Cucurbita pepo, -> corrected.
all Cucurbita pepo are pumpkins (Webster, SOED) -> False! Only _Cucurbita pepo_ _*var. ovifera*_ is a pumpkin
all zucchini are pumpkins -> False premises lead to a false conclusion!

This is where you are going wrong:
*Zucchini*: This derives from the *prevalent name in Italy, zucchina (small pumpkin)*.

It becomes clear that you are trying to translate directly from the Italian, and it does not work. Just because the Americans stole your name for this plant, does not mean that they have to take anything else.

I suggest that, in future, everyone calls them “courgettes”.

PS, did you know that Merriam Webster is abbreviated to *MW* because it is *M*ostly *W*rong?


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## monalisa!

monalisa! said:


> Definition of* PUMPKIN**1*
> *a* *:* a fruit of any of various cultivars of herbaceous plants (_Cucurbita pepo, C. maxima, C. moschata,_ and _C. mixta_ syn._C. argyrosperma_) of the gourd family that is typically round ....


Webster says literally
Pumpkin is a fruit of any.. cultivars of Cucurbita (pepo,....)
I have changed it to
pumpkins are all fruits of the cultivars Cucurbita (pepo, ...)
and then inverted the order
cultivars of Cucurbita (pepo...) are pumpkins.
If that is logically or linguistically invalid, I apologize for my ignorance and stupidity.

*Edit*: @ Paul, your link says:
A *pumpkin is a gourd-like squash of the genus Cucurbita and the family Cucurbitaceae (which also includes gourds).[1] It commonly refers to cultivars of any one of the species Cucurbita pepo, Cucurbita mixta,Cucurbita maxima, and Cucurbita moschata,*

Does that imply that C. pepo are pumpkins?, if you say no, Ok I was wrong,
does it say that  a pumpkin is a squash?

Now please, do not flog a dead horse.


----------



## JustKate

monalisa! said:


> Webster says literally
> Pumpkin is a fruit of any.. cultivars of Cucurbita (pepo,....)
> I have changed it to
> pumpkins are all fruits of the cultivars Cucurbita (pepo, ...)
> and then inverted the order
> cultivars ov Cucurbita (pepo...) are pumpkins.
> If that is logically or linguistically invalid, I apologize for my ignorance and stupidity.
> 
> Now please, do not flog a dead horse.



_A fruit of any_ doesn't mean the same thing as _any fruit of the_. The placement of that _any_ can and often does change the meaning of the phrase. Changing the order of other words in a sentence can also change the meaning. "Any apple is a fruit" does not mean the same thing as "Any fruit is an apple," and that's exactly the same sort of logical mistake that you've made in this thread.

I think what happened here is that you made an error initially. It was a *perfectly* understandable error. However, you clung to that error even after it was pointed out to you that it was indeed an error.


----------



## sdgraham

monalisa! said:


> Coul you please now tell me if you think the fruits in the pictures are pumpkins, and how do you sort them out?



If you mean the picture on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pumpkins.jpg, they are all mature pumpkins, as known in North America. 

If it doesn't look like the big orange things in the picture, we would never call it a "pumpkin" in normal conversation or when asking about them in a store, on a farm, in a garden, etc.


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## monalisa!

JustKate said:


> . "*Any* apple is a fruit" does not mean the same thing as "*Any *fruit is an apple," .


Hi Kate, if you are still willing to discuss it, i will, too:
I did not make a silly mistake, such as moving moving *any* to another word.
A is any B  is not equal to  any A is B, right, that is a stupid mistake
but
A is any B_ is equal_ to "any B is A", e.g.

an animal is any living being=
any living being is an animal=
all living beings are animals

I wrote
a pumpkin is any cultivar of C,pepo etc.=
any cultivar of C. pepo is a pumpkin=
all cultivars of C pepo are pumpkins  (C,pepo= zucchini) ergo all zucchini are pumpkins.
If I made a mistake, silly or not, is something else.


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## Myridon

monalisa! said:


> Coul you please now tell me if you think the fruits in the pictures are pumpkins, and how do you sort them out?


If you are referring to the pictures in the Google Image search above, there's no way to determine if Google is returning the same results in the same order for every person.  We usually get slightly different counts when we perform the same Google search from different cities in the US.
First, I would not say that those were all the same kind of squash.  If you put all those things in the same bin and said they were all buttercup squash, I wouldn't buy anything from you.
The first image that looks like a pumpkin to me is on the 18th row here: http://en.petitchef.com/recipes/buttercup-squash-quinoa-salad-fid-484616  If I could see the bottom of it, I might decide it wasn't a pumpkin.
On the 19th row, there's what might be a spaghetti squash which looks nothing like either a pumpkin or a buttercup squash.  On the 33rd row, there's a mixture of winter squash, but no pumpkins. On lines 35 and 37 are some butter*nut* squash.  On line 39 there's a second possible pumpkin. On line 44, there's 2 green winter squash of some sort with a pumpkin. On line 50, there's a green winter squash, a apple, 2 onions and a possible pumpkin.  So, out of 50 lines of 7 pictures each = 350 pictures, I see three or four things that might be pumpkins, but if I could see the bottom or the inside, I might decide they were something else. Also, I would estimate that at least 20% of the pictures show something that is not a "buttercup squash" (one of the pictures is a bowl of brown liquid like vinegar or maple syrup).


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## monalisa!

sdgraham said:


> If you mean the picture on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pumpkins.jpg, they are all mature pumpkins, as known in North America. If it doesn't look like the big orange things in the picture, we would never call it a "pumpkin" in normal conversation or when asking about them in a store, on a farm, in a garden, etc.


Thanks sdgraham, much obliged!
Now tell me, if memory serves, you said you are a gardener, when you buy seeds or baby plants in a nursery, don't you ask for a butternut squash instead of a buttercup pumpkin.
Then, you said in US nobody knows  squash, but summer/winter squash is just US terminolgy,


----------



## Parla

How one could possibly confuse a round orange object with an oblong green one is beyond me.


----------



## Sparky Malarky

A skirt is a garment.  Not all garments are skirts.

A bicycle is a vehicle.  Not all vehicles are bicycles.

A pumpkin is a squash.  Not all squash are pumpkins.


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## lucas-sp

monalisa! said:


> Webster says literally
> Pumpkin is a fruit of any.. cultivars of Cucurbita (pepo,....)
> I have changed it to
> pumpkins are all fruits of the cultivars Cucurbita (pepo, ...)
> and then inverted the order
> cultivars of Cucurbita (pepo...) are pumpkins.
> If that is logically or linguistically invalid, I apologize for my ignorance and stupidity.


Hey, apology accepted!

As I said above, you are *misreading this definition*. In particular, you are reading only the "of..." phrase and completely omitting the key part, which is the defining relative clause beginning with "that." The definition is correct; your reading is not correct.

So your logic should go:

A pumpkin is a fruit of the genus Cucurbita *that possesses the important pumpkin-like features: round body, longitudinal veins, wrinkly stem, and (in general) bright orange color.*
A pumpkin is any fruit of the genus Cucurbita that possesses the important pumpkin-like features: round body, longitudinal veins, wrinkly stem, and (in general) bright orange color.
Then, any fruit of the genus Cucurbita that possesses the important pumpkin-like features - round body, longitudinal veins, wrinkly stem, and (in general) bright orange color - is a pumpkin.

See? 





> *does it say that a pumpkin is a squash?*
> 
> Now please, do not flog a dead horse.


Yes.





> A pumpkin is a gourd-like *squash* ...


Finally: 





> *Zucchini: This derives from the prevalent name in Italy, zucchina (small pumpkin).*


Italian, unlike French and English, does not have separate words for "squash" and "pumpkin." A zucchini (zucca + -ini) is a small _squash_, not a small _pumpkin_; the same is true of a courgette (courge + ette _and not _citrouillette/citrouille + ette). A translator has to respect the particularities of both languages, the source and the target; translating "zucca" as always meaning "pumpkin" will get you in big trouble, really fast.

A zucchini - a small, narrow, long, green or yellow squash - possesses none of the important pumpkin-like features discussed by the dictionary and by us natives here. Therefore you cannot say that "A zucchini is a pumpkin."


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## Myridon

monalisa! said:


> a pumpkin is any cultivar of C,pepo etc.=
> any cultivar of C. pepo is a pumpkin=


We have showed you repeatedly that both these statements are not true.
Some pumpkins are cultivars of C. pepo, but some pumpkins are C. maxima, C. moschata, etc.
Some cultivars of C. pepo are pumpkins, but some C. pepo are not pumpkins - acorn squash, pattypan squash, yellow crookneck squash, etc.


----------



## monalisa!

Myridon said:


> The first image that looks like a pumpkin to me is on the 18th row here: http://en.petitchef.com/recipes/buttercup-squash-quinoa-salad-fid-484616  If I could see the bottom of it, I might decide it wasn't a pumpkin.
> On the 19th row, ------g that is not a "buttercup squash" (one of the pictures is a bowl of brown liquid like vinegar or maple syrup).


Thanks Myrydon, it'll take me a couple odf days to check up those instructions and digest, but on the spot, it seems you deem pumpkin the round ones and suashes the oblong ones?
Then you say " a mixture of winter squashes, but no pumpkins.." but pumpkins are winter squashes, aren't they?


----------



## lucas-sp

Argh!





monalisa! said:


> it seems you deem pumpkin the round ones and suashes the oblong ones?


No, "squashes" is the category of all squashes - the round ones, the oblong ones, the bumpy ones, the hook-necked ones... The oblong green ones are called "zucchini" or "courgettes." There are also some squashes which are just called "squashes"; those are the ones that aren't shaped either like a pumpkin or like a zucchini.


> Then you say " a mixture of winter squashes, but no pumpkins.." but pumpkins are winter squashes, aren't they?


Well... some pumpkins are _certain kinds_ of winter squash. There are other kinds. If you, say, googled it, you could find a list like the one here which names lots of different kinds of squash. The classifying chart at the bottom of that page is also very, very helpful.


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## monalisa!

lucas-sp said:


> Italian, unlike French and English, does not have separate words for "squash" and "pumpkin." A zucchini (zucca + -ini) is a small _squash_*, not a small pumpkin*; the same is true of a courgette (courge + ette _and not _citrouillette/citrouille + ette). A translator has to respect the particularities of both languages, the source and the target; translating "zucca" as always meaning "pumpkin" will get you in big trouble, really fast."


You are talking of things you do not know, I am 75% Italian and I live in Italy
zucca  is the only word and means pumpkin, on Halloween kids wait for "la grande zucca"


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## JustKate

monalisa! said:


> Hi Kate, if you are still willing to discuss it, i will, too:
> I did not make a silly mistake, such as moving moving *any* to another word.
> A is any B  is not equal to  any A is B, right, that is a stupid mistake
> but
> A is any B_ is equal_ to "any B is A", e.g.
> 
> an animal is any living being=
> any living being is an animal=
> all living beings are animals
> 
> I wrote
> a pumpkin is any cultivar of C,pepo etc.=
> any cultivar of C. pepo is a pumpkin=
> all cultivars of C pepo are pumpkins  (C,pepo= zucchini) ergo all zucchini are pumpkins.
> If I made a mistake, silly or not, is something else.



No, actually, "A is any B" is not necessarily equal to "Any B is A." Your error here is in missing the qualification that comes after the "B" in the definition of _pumpkin_. None of the definitions state flatly that A is any B, nor that the pumpkin is any member of the _Cucurbita pepo_ family. What they say is that the pumpkin is any member of the _Cucurbita pepo_ family that *also has other specific characteristics*, e.g., "round or ovoid," "orange or orange-yellow in color," "tough outer rind," etc., etc. A zucchini is any member of the _Cucurbita pepo_ family that has* its own specific characteristics*, e.g., "elongated," "green or yellow in color," "thin skin," etc., etc.

You can let a zucchini mature until it rots and it will never look nor taste anything like a pumpkin, and you can pick a pumpkin when it's as green as the vine it grows on and it will never look nor taste like a zucchini.


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## lucas-sp

monalisa! said:


> You are talking of things you do not know, I am 75% Italian and I live in Italy
> *zucca  is the only word *and means pumpkin, on Halloween kids wait for "la grande zucca"


Yes, exactly. Italian does not make a distinction between types of squash, except between big squash and little squash. But here in the rest of the world - outside the limits of your own mind - other people have different words for "squash," "pumpkin," and "zucchini/courgette," and different notions of what each of these categories means.

Italian does not make this distinction. French distinguishes between pumpkins and squash, but not between squash and zucchini. English distinguishes between all three.

Learning another language entails learning the particular and specific modes of categorization particular to that language. This is a moment where you can either try to learn those modes, or ignore them and fail to learn another language.


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## JustKate

lucas-sp said:


> Yes, exactly. Italian does not make a distinction between types of squash, except between big squash and little squash. But here in the rest of the world - outside the limits of your own mind - other people have different words for "squash," "pumpkin," and "zucchini/courgette," and different notions of what each of these categories means.
> 
> Italian does not make this distinction. French distinguishes between pumpkins and squash, but not between squash and zucchini. English distinguishes between all three.
> 
> Learning another language entails learning the particular and specific modes of categorization particular to that language. This is a moment where you can either try to learn those modes, or ignore them and fail to learn another language.



Squash are indigenous to the Americas. I wonder if that's why we differentiate so much more sharply than, say, Italians, and if BE speakers caught this differentiation from AmE speakers?


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## JulianStuart

It seems you have indeed misinterpreted the Webster defintion.  

Here is the *full* Webster definition and how to read the restrictive parts that are the actual definition.  Note that it begins with "A fruit"  and continues with a series of restrictive clauses (I bolded them) with other chracteristics that are in the definition because they are *required* to define a "pumpkin".  It is because many Cucurbita are not pumpkins that they add the bold text to define which are pumpkins and which are not.  When you read this correctly, you will see it matches just what everyone else has been saying about how the word pumpkin is used in English.  



> a : a *fruit* of any of various cultivars of herbaceous plants (Cucurbita pepo, C. maxima, C. moschata, and C. mixta syn. C. argyrosperma) of the gourd family *that is typically round and orange* but may be another color or shape,* that has a hard usually smooth skin with shallow longitudinal grooves,* and*that is grown for ornamental use or for its fibrous pale flesh used especially in baking or as feed for livestock*


  There is gray text for the botanists explaining that those that match the subsequent definition may be found in any of several specific cultivars of the various Cucurbita species listed.  There many many Cucurbita and any of them that match the bolded definition are called pumpkins.  The clear message of this is that if they don't match the bolded description, they are not pumpkins. 

Zucchini are not round and orange, do not have hard skins with grooves, do not have fibrous flesh and are grown to be eaten as a "vegetable".  They therefore do not match the definition above and cannot be called pumpkins if we accept the deefinition.

Finally, consider this: If all the fruits of all Cucurbita _were_ pumpkins, the dictionary definition would have been far simpler and would have said something like : "*the* fruit of *all* cultivars of the cucurbita family" or "*the* fruit of *all* cultivars of the following members of the cucurbita family (C. X Y and Z).

I type slowly, and now see I have tried to explain the Webster definition with the same points as in lucas-sp's post #71 above.


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## sdgraham

monalisa! said:


> Thanks sdgraham, much obliged!
> Now tell me, if memory serves, you said you are a gardener, when you buy seeds or baby plants in a nursery, don't you ask for a butternut squash instead of a buttercup pumpkin.



Yes Note that there's a difference between butternut and buttercup squash: http://www.foodista.com/question/HZ...rence-between-buttercup-and-butternut-squash#



> Then, you said in US nobody knows  squash



I did not say that. I said nobody here asks for squash when asking for pumpkins - or pumpkin when asking for what we know as squash.

If you ask a  nursery for squash seeds or plants, they will just ask "what kind?" 

Normally, pumpkins would be excluded from whatever they imagine.

See: http://www.territorialseed.com/category/222/a for the squash seeds produced by our favorite producer.

There are no pumpkins listed as squash either; neither are there gourds. That's because the producer knows that although must of us know they are technically squashes, neither we nor the producer normally thinks of them in that manner. That's why gourds and pumpkins are listed separately.

See:http://www.territorialseed.com/category/vegetable_seed

As far as _North American usage _ is concerned, the web site to which the above links apply will resolve much of your confusion.


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## Myridon

monalisa! said:


> Then you say " a mixture of winter squashes, but no pumpkins.." but pumpkins are winter squashes, aren't they?


Poodles are dogs.  If I see a picture mixed group of dogs, there doesn't have to be a poodle in the picture.  It could be a picture of a Great Dane, a Labrador retriever and a German shepherd.
Acorn squash, butternut squash, and buttercup squash are all winter squashes.  I can see a picture that has those three in it.  There are no pumpkins in that picture.


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## bennymix

Hi Monalisa,
I'm not clear as to the position you're defending here.    Is it--
1) I (ML) tell you that a pumpkin is a squash (in scientific terms).
2) Around here in Italy, we call pumpkins squashes, specifically, 'big squashes" (suitably translated).
3) English speakers should be OK with saying to an employee, in the store, before a display of pumpkins, "I want that squash."

If it is simply 1) I don't see much of a debate.   You can tell me, "Those cashew nuts you're eating are really fruits, in scientific terms."   I would ask for evidence, and you could show me by genus and species.  Then I might say, "I guess I really am eating some fruits."    That does not mean that the next time I'm in a store, wanting a bag of these nuts, I will say,  "Please give me some of those fruits."  Then, I suppose, when the fellow looks puzzled, I have to say, "The botanists classify the cashew 'nut' as a fruit;  so please give me some of that fruit and don't argue."

If you're saying 2), I say, Fine, interesting.  Thanks.
If you're saying 3), I say, No, they're not OK with it;  no reason they should be.


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## lucas-sp

monalisa! said:


> You are talking of things you do not know, I am 75% Italian and I live in Italy
> zucca  is the only word and means pumpkin, on Halloween kids wait for "la grande zucca"


Also, since we're pointing out things that we "don't know," you might be interested to find out that the same word ("zucca") is translated as "squash" in another famous Italian phrase. "Fiori di zucca" are always called "squash blossoms" in English because, well, they come from squash (and mostly not from pumpkins). You can observe this phenomenon here.

You may know more about being Italian than I do, but I clearly know more about the correct and standard translations of Italian to English than you do.


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## RM1(SS)

monalisa! said:


> Webster says literally
> Pumpkin is a fruit of any.. cultivars of Cucurbita (pepo,....)



No, it does not.  According to your own quote:



monalisa! said:


> I suppose you trust the Merriam Webster, here is its current definition:
> Definition of* PUMPKIN**1*
> *a* *:* a fruit of any of various cultivars of herbaceous plants (_Cucurbita pepo, C. maxima, C. moschata,_ and _C. mixta_ syn._C. argyrosperma_) of the gourd family that is typically round ....



It says "a fruit of any of various cultivars," not "a fruit of any (or all) cultivars." 



monalisa! said:


> Webster says literally
> Pumpkin is a fruit of any.. cultivars of Cucurbita (pepo,....)
> I have changed it to
> pumpkins are all fruits of the cultivars Cucurbita (pepo, ...)



And there is where you are making a mistake: You are changing "a fruit of various cultivars" to "all fruits of the cultivars."  You are changing _some_ to _all_.


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## monalisa!

JulianStuart said:


> There is gray text* for the botanists *explaining that those that match the subsequent definition may be found in any of several specific cultivars of the various Cucurbita species listed.  There many many Cucurbita and any of them that match the bolded definition are called pumpkins.  The clear message of this is that if they don't match the bolded description, they are not pumpkins.
> .


Hi Julian, correct me if I am wrong:
we have ascertained so far that in US you call squashes al plants an fruits of the_ Cucurbita_ genus (especially of the genera: Pepo,Maxima, mixta and Moschata).
Then you distinguish between summer and winter squashes (which can be stored in winter)
Then you make a second distinction : the *squashes that are round are called pumpkins *, like Jack o' lantern, fairytale, cinderella, pie, sugar...
here (http://www.foodsubs.com/Squash.html) some round squashes are called also pumpkins: Japanese squash/ pumpkin, gold nugget _squash_/ Oriental _pumpkin,_ but
If this is correct the _globe squash_
https://www.google.it/search?q="but...&q="globe+squash"&sa=1&tbm=isch&um=1&imgdii=_
might be considered a pumpkin (?)
If that is confirmed I am almost at the end of my quest!

-------
 P.S.  As to the_ vexata questio:
_(I cut short the debate with Paul as I personally do not care if zucchini are pumpkins and admitted I was wrong (i.e. SOED is wrong). But that has not ended the polemic- If someone is interested, I will reply to their posts when I get a full anser to my question.)

As to your post I quoted above, of course I was referring to linguists' and botanists' definition. And we have seen that that does not agree with the general feeling in US.
The discussion is purely academic, and regards taxonomy, logics and semantics (of which Paul is an expert, that's why I felt I did not get a square deal from him.)
The key point in all definitions is that the term "_pumpkin_" applies to C. pepo (which is the botanic name for zucchini). 
99% of C. Pepo are called zucchini even in US. I suppose nobody can deny that.
In the specialized link Kate gave us, it is explicitly written what I had re-constructed from Webster:


> Pumpkins and squash belong to the Cucurbitaceae family. Generally* pumpkins belong to the **Cucurbita pepo*, _C. maxima_, and _C. moschata_ species.
> _(and then , unmistakably clear_
> *The **C. pepo species ( =...) are usually recognized as the true pumpkin.*


Everybody ignored that, and tried various mirror-climbing, just because they can't believe it is true.

From the point of view of taxonomy it is even more clear and simple : if a term applies to a* genus*, it  applies to all species, subspecies, varieties and cultivars in the world that include that taxon.


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## owlman5

I'm not sure that everybody ignored your post, monalisa!  It's possible that people missed some information in this long thread.  It would be easy to do for anybody who isn't fascinated with pumpkins and squash.


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## lucas-sp

monalisa! said:


> THe key point in all definitions is that the term "pumpkin" applies to C.pepo which is the botanic name for zucchini.


Nope. Wrong. Not right. El zilcho. Let's look at that quote again, shall we, without chopping it up to serve your Quixotic purposes:





> Pumpkins and squash belong to the Cucurbitaceae family. *Generally* pumpkins belong to the _Cucurbita pepo_, _C. maxima_, and _C. moschata_ species. *The **C. pepo **species [that is, the C. pepo species of pumpkin] are usually recognized as the true pumpkin. *Pumpkin varieties within this group have orange-yellow flowers, and fruits with bright orange skin and hard, woody, distinctly furrowed stems. This group [_viz., C. pepo_] *also includes* gourds, vegetable marrow, Pattypan summer squash, scallop summer squash, *gray and black zucchini* and summer crookneck squash.
> 
> The maxima species also contains varieties that produce pumpkin-like fruit but the skin is usually more yellow than orange and the stems are soft and spongy or corky, without ridges and without an enlargement next to the fruit. They don't really make good handles for jack-o'-lanterns. [etc.]
> 
> (From here)


Here's what that says:

A) The things that people call "pumpkins" mostly come from these three species.

B) Some "pumpkins" belong to C. pepo. Among the pumpkins that belong in this species is what is considered to be the most pumpkin-like pumpkin, the Halloween pumpkin used for jack-o-lanterns. So when you say "pumpkin" to an American, and that American immediately thinks of Linus staying up all night on Halloween, that pumpkin is part of C. pepo. This doesn't make other kinds of pumpkins "false pumpkins," it just means that they aren't the most famous _kind_ of pumpkin. In other words:





> *The **C. pepo species ( =...) are usually recognized as the true pumpkin.*


This means "The species of pumpkins that are varieties of C. pepo are what most people think of when they think of 'pumpkin.'" *It does not mean that all species of C. pepo are "true pumpkins."*

C) Also in C. pepo are many other kinds of squash. These other kinds include the classic zucchini (which is called black zucchini but which most laypeople would consider to be dark green), as well as other summer squash.

D) This in no way means that zucchini are "true pumpkins" or vice-versa. It just so happens that both zucchini and "true pumpkins" are different varieties of C. pepo. (Similarly, it's hardly true that blimps are "true airplanes" just because they're both kinds of aircraft.)

E) There exist squash in the other species that would also be recognized as "pumpkins" by native speakers. (In fact, some things that native speakers would recognize as "pumpkins" come from entirely different species of Cucurbita!) However, these varieties of pumpkin are different from the Platonic ideal of "pumpkin-ness" that every American instinctively realizes.

F) If you want to get a square deal, then you have to give a square deal to others. Your refusal to listen to reason or to admit your misreadings makes any serious conversation about this impossible.


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## lucas-sp

And a PS:





> If this is correct the _globe squash
> https://www.google.it/search?q=%22bu...&um=1&imgdii=_
> might be considered a pumpkin?_


Nope. Globe squashes are tiny and green and round, without longitudinal grooves. They're summer squash.


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## bennymix

These are my comments,* bold,* on your summary;  I am speaking of american usage._

Monalisa [italics]: Then you distinguish between summer and winter squashes (which can be stored in winter)
***_*Yes*_

Then you make a second distinction : the squashes that are round are  called pumpkins , like Jack o' lantern, fairytale, cinderella, pie,  sugar...
_**No, they must be round-ish, smooth, grooved, and usually orange, with orange flesh*_

here (http://www.foodsubs.com/Squash.html) some round squashes have are called also pumpkins: Japanese squash/ pumpkin, gold nugget squash/ Oriental pumpkin, but
_
**The 'gold nugget squash' is close. Others, not.***Of the various 'oriental pumpkins' shown here, below, including 'Japanese pumpkins" most are not.*
http://www.evergreenseeds.com/orientalsquash.html

*This one, below, is close, in my opinion.
*
*Japanese Squash, Uchiki Kuri*







Orange-red skin with yellow flesh._

If this is correct the globe squash
https://www.google.it/search?q=%22bu...&um=1&imgdii=_
might be considered a pumpkin?_

**No.  Not a pumpkin.*

----
Bennymix: Just to prevent a certain move.  The 'oriental pumpkins' are mostly not  close to being pumpkins, with the exception, noted, as far as I can see.    You will say, "why do they have that (pumpkin) name?"   This answer is,
A wax apple is not an apple;  Wild rice is not rice,   etc.

Again, as an American, reporting on American usage of English.

Best!    (great topic!)

bennymix



==


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## monalisa!

bennymix said:


> _.
> _**No, they must be round-ish, smooth, grooved, and usually orange, with orange flesh*Again, as an American, reporting on American usage of English.
> Best!    (great topic!)


Hi bennymix,  thanks for your textbook example of a reply!

So the defifinition of pumpkin in AmE is getting narrower!

The varieties I quoted seem to fit: _like Jack o' lantern, fairytale, cinderella, pie, sugar...
cinderella__ and fairytale __may be of different colours, if they are orange are true true pumpkins, right?_


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## monalisa!

lucas-sp said:


> B) Some "pumpkins" belong to C. pepo. Among the pumpkins that belong in this species is what is considered to be the most pumpkin-like pumpkin, the Halloween *pumpkin used for jack-o-lanterns*.


Where did you get* that *from*?
*There are a couple_  winter squashes in _the species_ pepo_ are: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delicata_squash and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acorn_squash.
Are you suggesting that jack-o'-lantern pumpkin is a summer squash in C. pepo??


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## lucas-sp

monalisa! said:


> Where did you get* that *from*?
> *
> Are you suggesting that jack-o'-lantern pumpkin is a summer squash in C. pepo??


Why, I got it from the citation you provided.

And by no means am I suggesting that the jack-o-lantern pumpkin is a summer squash. I'm suggesting that it, like summer squash, is a variety of C. pepo. And I'm not suggesting that; I'm reading the quote that says that all by itself.

Once more, for those with eyes to read and brains to think:





> *Generally* pumpkins belong to the _Cucurbita pepo, C. maxima, and C. moschata species. *The **C. pepospecies [that is, the C. pepo species of pumpkin] are usually recognized as the true pumpkin. Pumpkin varieties within this group have orange-yellow flowers, and fruits with bright orange skin and hard, woody, distinctly furrowed stems. This group [viz., C. pepo] also includes gourds, vegetable marrow, Pattypan summer squash, scallop summer squash, gray and black zucchini and summer crookneck squash.*_


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## bennymix

Monalisa,
Incidentally, round, orange and winter do not a pumpkin make.  One of my favorites is the yellow Hubbard squash,

http://www.reimerseeds.com/images/products/squash/Golden_Delicious_Hubbard_Squash_Seeds.jpg

It is not clear from the image, but they are often 25 cm in diameter.


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## monalisa!

PaulQ said:


> False!* Only* _Cucurbita pepo_ _var. ovifera_ is a pumpkin





lucas-sp said:


> to serve your Quixotic purposes
> B)* Some *"pumpkins" belong to C. pepo. *Among the pumpkins* that belong in this species
> E)  However, these varieties of pumpkin are different from *the Platonic ideal of "pumpkin-ness" that every American instinctively realizes. *
> .


A) Making snarky remarks makes you feel better, for those who have brains? would that be you yourself?

B) Is your Jack-o-lantern pumpkin Paul's_ C. pepo ovifera_? Paul was wrong, that is the Des Moines/Acorn squash a _winter squash_ that looks like a pumpkin.
Can you provide a list of these pumpkins?

E) that's your problem, lucas, you cannot discuss a topic in an academic way. Whatevr you feel becomes the Absolute Truth.
a_ Butternut squash_ is a _Butternut pumpkin_ in Australia, probably they have different Platonic ideal. Who is wrong?
Please exert your American ideal of pumpkinness in the general segment of this thread


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## monalisa!

bennymix said:


> I'm not clear as to the position you're defending here.    Is it--
> 1) English speakers should be OK with saying to an employee, in the store, before a display of pumpkins, "I want that squash."
> 
> 2)  You can tell me, "Those cashew nuts you're eating are really fruits, in scientific terms."   I would ask for evidence, and you could show me by genus and species.  Then I might say, "I guess I really am eating some fruits."    That does not mean that the next time I'm in a store, wanting a bag of these nuts, I will say,  "Please give me some of those fruits."  Then, I suppose, when the fellow looks puzzled, I have to say, "The botanists classify the cashew 'nut' as a fruit;  so please give me some of that fruit and don't argue."
> .


Thanks for this nice post, bennymix. Let's see if I can get this across.

1) UK speakers say to  an employee, in the store, before a display of pumpkins, "I want that squash in the center." 
Aussie speakers say to an employee, in the same store store, before a display of winter squash, "I want that pumpkin in the centre." 
They are both right, speak their own language. No one can impose his view on the other. If you look into a dictionary , centre/ center, both forms are legitimate.

That is what this thread is about, to discover the various usage of pumkinaround the world.
2) in the case of scientific terms everything in 1 is valid, but  if you look into a dictionary you found the Scientific terms along with the common mames of plants.
In that case there is one correct form. But then everybody goes on saying what he likes.
If we make a side-debate about the definition of pumpkin, we must be prepared to accept that we might be using a non-standard form.
 If you take part in this second debate you ought to be unbiassed.
That's all. 

I found this interesting article, that sums up the US view (a pumpkin is a [round] orange squash as we already ascertained), but is not biassed:

*“Pumpkin” is just a name for an Orange Squash:*

The name, pumpkin is an interesting way of classifying an organism.  That’s because it is not only used to describe more than one species, but its often a term used to describe the morphological traits of those as well.  Let me explain.  
It’s common for more than one species to be described with the same common name.  For instance, the colloquial term banana is used for more than one species found throughout the tropics.  Most Americans see only one of these species, but in reality there are many more.  What we call pumpkins are phenotypically orange individuals from the following four species _C. pepo, C. maxima, C. mixta, and C. moschata. _
The most *difficult concept to grasp however*, is that each of these species has also been domestically bred into different forms, to the point that we wouldn’t even call them pumpkins.
*Zucchinis for instance, are the same species as the common pumpkin, *_*C. pepo**.  *
__*We wouldn’t mistakenly call a Zucchini a pumpkin would we?  *_Thus, pumpkin is really a term used to describe a characteristically orange squash-like gourd.


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## monalisa!

sdgraham said:


> Normally, pumpkins would be excluded from whatever they imagine.
> See: http://www.territorialseed.com/category/222/a for the squash seeds produced by our favorite producer.
> See:http://www.territorialseed.com/category/vegetable_seed


Thanks sdgraham, you are a gold mine, those links are precious


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## JulianStuart

monalisa! said:


> I found this interesting article, that sums up the US view (a pumpkin is a [round] orange squash as we already ascertained), but is not biassed:
> 
> *“Pumpkin” is just a name for an Orange Squash:
> *_....
> __*We wouldn’t mistakenly call a Zucchini a pumpkin would we?  *_Thus, pumpkin is really a term used to describe a characteristically orange squash-like gourd.



Yes.  Nice conclusion.

We've come a long way from the original proposal that (in the US) zucchini are (small green) pumpkins


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## sdgraham

> Thus, pumpkin is really a term used to describe a characteristically orange squash-like gourd.



Except that in the U.S., anybody pointing out a big yellow pumpkin and calling it a gourd would be considered out of his/her gourd.

And now that we (hopefully) are approaching the end of this absurdly long discussion, I see that we already covered it it back in 2007 

*Pumpkin and squash*


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## bennymix

The topic was never covered in this manic detail, however, with illustrations and invective.


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## Cagey

This thread has wandered far from a discussion of what words actually mean in common usage, which is what this forum is equipped to handle, to a discussion of what words ought to mean. That is a discussion better suited to other venue, and is far outside the scope of this forum.  

The thread is now closed. 

Cagey, moderator.


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