# EN: Il existe plusieurs dénominations : - usage des deux-points



## Runako

Dear Forum I still need your assistance.

Full phrase (source):
_"Il existe plusieurs dénominations de ce sport  à travers le monde : ping pang qiu (乒乓球, pīng pāng qiú, « balle  ping-pang »), en République populaire de Chine et République de Chine  (Taïwan), les caractères sont assez particulier puisqu'ils représentent  des raquettes face à face"_.

My translation: _"There are many names for this sport throughout the world: Ping pang qui (乒乓球, pīng pāng qiú, "Ping Pong with a ball")..."_ etc

But my question concerns the grammatical use of the colon here. I left it in place as it doesn't seem to have a different use to the English, but my other French learners disagree and used a full stop here before starting a new sentence with the rest of the translation.

I appreciate this seems a minor thing, but it has an impact on the rest of the sentence. For instance, is it denoting a list of names - as in the second part of the sentence above? Or should it be translated as the end of one sentence (so use a full stop) and the beginning of another in this context?

However, the subsequent sentences (new sentences after full stops) do  talk about the different names and how the word "Ping pong" evolved into  the generally recognised "Table Tennis".

Merci


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## Sirgha

Dear Runako,

You're totally right to use the colon in this sentence as you are "naming" the different names for a sport. If you use a full stop, it will change the meaning of the sentence.

I hope that helps...

Kind regards.


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## Lly4n4

If you have this form:
_There are many names for this sport: A (meaning of A), B *and C.*_
Then you are right (please note that in France ":" should be preceded *and *followed by a thin space).

But if you got this form:
_There are many names for this sport; A (meaning of A) *is *the most famous_.
I will use a ";" (still with two spaces). A full stop "." could be also used if the sentence about A is very long.

And if you use this form:
_There are many names for this sport: A (meaning of A), B, C *are *used in different parts of the world and (..._)
Then ":" and "." could both be used, but I would prefer a full stop.


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## Runako

Thanks for the replies. Wow, that's both enlightening and a little confusing. So both ":" and "." could be correct depending on the context. The one that fits most closely with Lly4n4's examples is the 2nd. Its perhaps conveying that the sport is most popular in China, rather than being famous, and there's no list of countries (B, C & D) which I agree warrants the colon's use. However, it _does_ seem to be listing the various iterations of the Chinese name.


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## Lly4n4

So in fact it's more:
_There are many names for this sport: A (variants of A) *is *_(...); _B (variants of B) *is *_(...);_ C (variants of C) *is *_(...).

Either you use ":" + ";" I think it's the best, but it's literary and maybe a little "old-style" (I have guessed the remaining text for the example):
_"Il existe plusieurs dénominations de ce sport à  travers le monde : ping pang qiu (乒乓球, pīng pāng qiú, « balle ping-pang  »), en République populaire de Chine et République de Chine (Taïwan), dont les caractères ont la particularité de représenter des  raquettes face à face ; ping-pong, en France, avec l'utilisation de l'onomatopée comme son équivalent chinois ; table tennis, dans les pays anglophones."_
In this option you can use verbs in the main proposition or not (like my reformulation).

Or you use only full stops: 
_"Il existe plusieurs dénominations de ce sport à  travers le monde. Ping pang qiu (乒乓球, pīng pāng qiú, « balle ping-pang  »), *dont*  les caractères _(sont assez particuliers puisqu'ils) _représentent des  raquettes face à face, *est utilisé* en République populaire de Chine et République de Chine (Taïwan)."_
But in this case, you need a verb to go with each name.


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## Runako

That's a great response. Your contextualisation is correct and I think the first conjecture is the best for this translation. Your guess is also somewhat close to what happens next, which is quite perceptive. So I'm happy to trust your advice on this._ 

Merci beaucoup _


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## Runako

A related question to the respondents - Is it possible that the brackets were included in error in the article? Or that it would be better to omit the brackets from the translation? It would make more sense as a list if so. That is "Il existe plusieurs dénominations de ce sport à travers le monde : ping pang qiu, 乒乓球, pīng pāng qiú, "balle ping-pang"..."


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## m00d1e

I just want to be clear, even if the brackets shouldn't be there, then using a colon in the manner you've described is still grammatically incorrect.

For the colon the be correct, the sentence would have to read:



> There are many names for this sport in China: [Chinese name A], [Chinese name B] and [Chinese name C].



A sentence reading:


> There are many names for this sport throughout the world: [phonetic Chinese name], [Chinese name in original characters], [phonetic Chinese name], [Chinese name translated into French].



is poor grammar.


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## m00d1e

Here's the full paragraph in question […]:



> Il existe plusieurs dénominations de ce sport à travers le monde : ping pang qiu (乒乓球,pīng pāng qiú, « balle ping-pang »), en République populaire de Chine et République de Chine (Taïwan), les caractères sont assez particulier puisqu'ils représentent des raquettes face à face. On peut également dire en Chine (卓球, zhuō qiú, « balle de table »), qui ce prononce au Japon takkyū (卓球?). En revanche le mot ping-pong proviendrait de lamarque commerciale sous laquelle le jeu est produit aux États-Unis au début duxxe siècle3,4. Ce terme est plutôt utilisé pour désigner le jeu de loisirs, alors que le terme de tennis de table est plutôt utilisé pour désigner la pratique sportive ; malgré tout, un pratiquant de ce sport, y compris en compétition, s'appelle toujours un « pongiste ».


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## Lly4n4

Thank you for the whole paragraph. 
In this case, I will put a full stop after "monde" and change this sentence: "ping pang qiu (乒乓球,pīng pāng qiú, « balle ping-pang »), en République  populaire de Chine et République de Chine (Taïwan), les caractères sont  assez particulier puisqu'ils représentent des raquettes face à face." 
The following sentences are not just a list, they are complete sentences, so it's better to switch to the "all full stop" system. But the first one is not a complete sentence, there is no verb about the name itself  so you need to make it consistent (see previous posts).


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## Runako

Lly4n4 said:


> Thank you for the whole paragraph.
> In this case, I will put a full stop after "monde" and change this sentence: "ping pang qiu (乒乓球,pīng pāng qiú, « balle ping-pang »), en République  populaire de Chine et République de Chine (Taïwan), les caractères sont  assez particulier puisqu'ils représentent des raquettes face à face."
> The following sentences are not just a list, they are complete sentences, so it's better to switch to the "all full stop" system. But the first one is not a complete sentence, there is no verb about the name itself  so you need to make it consistent (see previous posts).



Thanks for clarifying your view. The 'style guide' we're using on Duolingo suggests its most important to retain the meaning of the original text without seeking to "correct" the translation. My proposed translation makes sense, with the use of the colon (and an additional word or two):

"There are many names for this sport throughout the world: "Ping pang qiu" (乒乓球, pīng pāng qiú, "balle ping-pang") is its name in the People's Republic of China and Taiwan, the Chinese characters of which are quite idiosyncratic since they depict rackets facing each other."

I wondered whether its best to stick to the guide without changing the original. So it the becomes more of a question of how to use the full stop after "monde" and translate the rest of the sentence without changing the original text too much (in the English translation) but ensuring that it makes sense.

"ping pang qiu (乒乓球,pīng pāng qiú, « balle ping-pang »), in People's Republic of China and Taiwan, the characters are quite *idiosyncratic as they depict rackets facing each other". This is my most literal interpretation but as you can see, it doesn't read that well in English. So what would be the best substitute translation here?

Thanks for all your input.


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## Lly4n4

_*P*__ing pang qiu (乒乓球, pīng pāng qiú, « balle   ping-pang »), en République populaire de Chine et République de Chine   (Taïwan)__* ; *__les caractères sont assez particulier__s__ puisqu'ils représentent   des raquettes face à face_*. *
If you don't want to change any word in the text, just change the punctuation like this and it should be correct with full stops everywhere else 

PS : I only found this solution now, sorry. But I'm glad you find this exchange useful!


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## m00d1e

That may be the correct use a semi-colon in French, but it doesn't translate directly to English. In English, a comma is the appropriate form of punctuation for this sentence.



> There are many names for this sport throughout the world. "Ping pang qiu" (乒乓球, pīng pāng qiú, "balle ping-pang") is its name in the People's Republic of China and Taiwan, the Chinese characters of which are quite idiosyncratic since they depict rackets facing each other.



For details on the correct use of a semi-colon in English grammar, see: http://grammar.about.com/od/punctuationandmechanics/a/semicolon09.htm


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## Kelly B

Runako said:


> A related question to the respondents - Is it possible that the brackets were included in error in the article? Or that it would be better to omit the brackets from the translation? It would make more sense as a list if so. That is "Il existe plusieurs dénominations de ce sport à travers le monde : ping pang qiu, 乒乓球, pīng pāng qiú, "balle ping-pang"..."


No. As Lly4n4 pointed out, the items in brackets are not the separate names or denominations; instead, they are explanations or variants of the _first _name in the list.


> _*P*__ing pang qiu (乒乓球, pīng pāng qiú, « balle ping-pang »), en République populaire de Chine et République de Chine (Taïwan)__* ; *__les caractères sont assez particulier__s__ puisqu'ils représentent des raquettes face à face_*. *


Hi Llyn4n, this one surprises me because it lacks a verb. That can sometimes work as a stylistic device, but it's a little strange when the other sentences do have verbs, isn't it? It's not a parallel structure anymore.


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## Lly4n4

Hi Kelly, yes, it's a stylistic choice I had to sort out as Runako said that the French text shouldn't be corrected, or the least possible. And as the punctuation is often the forgotten one (except here!). In my opinion, the lacking verb is compensated by the second part of the sentence after the semicolon. 

My favorite choice was quoted in #5: _Ping pang qiu (乒乓球, pīng pāng qiú, « balle ping-pang  »), *dont*  les caractères _(sont assez particuliers puisqu'ils) _représentent des  raquettes face à face, *est utilisé* en République populaire de Chine et République de Chine (Taïwan)._
But, with less change, it could also be:
*Il est appelé *ping pang qiu_ (乒乓球, pīng pāng qiú, « balle ping-pang  ») en République populaire de Chine et République de Chine (Taïwan)* ; *les caractères sont assez particuliers puisqu'ils représentent des  raquettes face à face."_


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## Runako

If only it were that easy then I wouldn't have had to trouble you with my post :-D Both of those alternatives are better than the original and I would have composed something different myself. But when using Duolingo's immersion, the translation is endorsed or edited by others (hence this situation) and there are some guidelines which encourage editors to stick to the original unless the meaning is not clear. I guess the original meaning was not clear enough!

I think we've all spent enough time on the humble colon. Thanks again to all posters for assisting.


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## Maître Capello

The usage of the colon in French is *incorrect* in that  context. The French text should therefore definitely be corrected, even more so since it is part of a Wiki article. Wikipedia is not really known for its best language style and typography, is it? 

Anyway, it would be a very bad idea to stick to such an incorrect  typography in English. You should therefore reword the translation in such a way that it makes sense in English, which is much more important than remaining close to the source text. This is by the way what Duolingo mentions first in their guidelines: "Use natural translations over literal translations."


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## Runako

Thanks. This point is appreciated now more than ever!  On this occasion I didn't have the confidence in my French to assume the article was wrong, and as a result failed to use a _better_ translation. But this is part of learning so thanks for you contributions.


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## Runako

Salut, I apologise in advance if I've infringed the forum rules but I have a question related to this thread and didn't wish to clutter the forum with a new one. It is still about the use of the colon and here is the phrase:

_*"La nouvelle série a transformé plusieurs protagonistes : certains rôles-clés masculins, comme celui de Starbuck, sont désormais des femmes."*_

My translation is "The new series changes several protagonists: certain key male roles, like that of Starbuck, are now female". 

The translation itself is secondary, it's how the colon is used as again there's no list (the rest of this paragraph isn't a list at all but in any case can be found here - https://www.duolingo.com/translation/38b9c191da1963e950b8230d280aecec) 

To keep it simple, colon or no colon in the translation? If so, which grammatical rule applies to the use of the colon here?

Merci d'avance.


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## jann

Runako said:


> _*"La nouvelle série a transformé plusieurs protagonistes : certains rôles-clés masculins, comme celui de Starbuck, sont désormais des femmes."*_
> 
> My translation is "The new series changes several protagonists: certain key male roles, like that of Starbuck, are now female".
> 
> To keep it simple, colon or no colon in the translation? If so, which grammatical rule applies to the use of the colon here?


I would say that colon is correct both in French and in English for the following reasons:


> *[French]*  (source) Le deux-points peut exprimer la synthèse  de ce qui précède. Il a la valeur d'une explication ou  d'une cause. (_Il tourna la tête brusquement : la  lumière de la lampe était trop forte._)
> 
> *[English]* (source) There are three main uses of the colon:
> 
> between two main clauses in cases where the second clause explains or follows from the first:
> _That is the secret of my extraordinary life: always do the unexpected.
> It wasn’t easy: to begin with, I had to find the right house._​


 I  really think you may wish to take a look at the rather extensive set of  links on French and English punctuation that we've collected here in our Resources subforum.


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## Runako

No, I agree with this. I just wanted to ask to make sure. I'll keep an eye out for any other answers but I'm happy with this one. And thanks for the subforum link.


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