# Ы pronunciation



## LukeBR

Hello, I have some questions about the famous Ы...

1st: Why in musics, we hear it like an y, but when talking, it sounds like ea in "really"?
2nd: If I use it like an Non-Patalized I, will they understand what I'm saying?

Спасибо!


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## Maroseika

1. What do you mean writing "y" and "ea"? Can you give some examples of English or other words to illustrate the idea?

2. Ы is a vowel, while palatalized or non-palatalised only a consonant can be.
Anyway, ы instead of и (in combination with hard consonant instead of soft one) will sound as a very bad accent, and in some cases it may change the sense: лыжи - лижи, пыл - пил, был - бил, мыл - мил, etc., etc.


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## Awwal12

Note, please, that /ы/ phoneme can be stressed and unstressed. Stressed /ы/ sounds as [ɨ], unstressed one sounds as [ə] (approximately as unstressed /а/ and /э/ phonemes sound, thanks to notorious reduction of vowels).


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## Demonic_Duck

No, I'm not laughing, I just wanted to discuss this curious Russian vowel, and how us poor English speakers are supposed to go about pronouncing it. 

If I pronounce it like German Ü, would I be going too far wrong?


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## rushalaim

Demonic_Duck said:


> No, I'm not laughing, I just wanted to discuss this curious Russian vowel, and how us poor English speakers are supposed to go about pronouncing it.
> 
> If I pronounce it like German Ü, would I be going too far wrong?


 
No! German sound "Ü" doesn't look like russian sound "Ы" at all!
Teach yourself! Be patient and... good luck!  

(By the way, "how us poor [russian] speakers are supposed to go about pronouncing the word "THE"? ) ze, te, se...


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## BezierCurve

Wouldn't simply short "i" (like in "bit") be much closer to it? Analogicaly, the long one ("bead") would correspond with "и".


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## lebenohnegebaeude

German "ü" is produced in the front of your mouth, while "ы" is somewhere way in the back. It's very difficult to pronounce indeed... try to think of hiccups, that's what helped me improve mine!


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## spirituelle

I know how logopedists teach to pronounce Ы. It is hard to explain in words but I'll try.
Start pronouncing a long E (beer)
then take a pencil
and push the tip of your tongue back
the tongue should be like a hillock now
now you E should be sounding like Ы

good luck  i've tried it myself and it works


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## Maroseika

Maybe one can try to pronounce the preceding consonant as hard as only possible (as in *m*other or *n*ut). The following *и *must turn then into the pure *ы: *мы, ны.
Or I'd suggest using *ц* here, because its palatalizing seems rather difficult. Maybe only for Russians, though...


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## morzh

It is very hard to explain.

If you know American version of English, "i" in closed syllables sounds pretty close. Not exactly, but close, especially in some stressed versions. I remember seeing a movie (one with Stallone) where a bad guy says "pig!" in a very stressed way - it sounds very close to "ы".
English version is very different. Americans open their mouth more, hence the resemblance.

Now, that having been said, "ы" is pronounced with your mouth in position for "и" ("ee", like in "peek/meek/seek") and your throat (back of your tongue and such) in position for sounds like "a (either russian or english)", like in "car/bar/" or "tag" or even "baby" (doesn't matter that the syllable is open or closed) for English, or "баба"/"Каа"/"бак".

Now the secret to good "ы" is this: there is NO transition.
"Ы" is the same in that sence as "a/o/у/э".


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## Vasiliy

So и is said in front of the mouth where as ы is said in the back of the mouth?


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## prinjon

Seems so. I have good accent just repeating you tube videos fo some russians...easy way. Don't bother ! Jut repeat like a kid.
In French, it is between i and ou (which are in English like short "ee" and end of "you"), go back in your throat anyway but I must say that in France, making this sound is like making silly sound, French could say it but talking like this is same as if you were pronuncing like a dumb guy...no joke. I told my russian friend about that, and we laughed !)


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## morzh

Vasiliy said:


> So и is said in front of the mouth where as ы is said in the back of the mouth?



Yes. This is it.

The best way is indeed what I call "the parrot way" - listen and repeat. I've noticed (I don't know if it is just me or anybody can do it) that if I try to repeat a sound without analyzing and thinking "how", just by listening to it, most of the time I can. Does not matter, Chinese or Avar. I think it can be done by anybody; I also tend to think people over-analyze pronunciation and try to find out "how to position the tongue" instead of just trying to repeat what they hear.


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## prinjon

True Morzh, except if you can't from the beginning distinguish sound among others.
Japanese cannot usually make the difference between l and r...


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## morzh

prinjon said:


> True Morzh, except if you can't from the beginning distinguish sound among others.
> Japanese cannot usually make the difference between l and r...



This is what we call in Russian "Медведь на ухо наступил" (a bear stamped on one's ear).
I am not so sure they can't. Or all of them. They have same ears everyone else has. Unless their part of the brain responsible for ears is overspent for their famous color and taste sensitivity


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## fuLya

I guess I couldn't really figure out the pronounciation. Is it a mistake to pronounce it like in "dew" or "few"?


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## prinjon

When you are not hearing some sound before getting adult, your brain has not developped the capacity to hear the sound...effort to discover it is far greater than if you are a school learner...


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## Demonic_Duck

morzh said:


> Yes. This is it.
> 
> The best way is indeed what I call "the parrot way" - listen and repeat. I've noticed (I don't know if it is just me or anybody can do it) that if I try to repeat a sound without analyzing and thinking "how", just by listening to it, most of the time I can. Does not matter, Chinese or Avar. I think it can be done by anybody; I also tend to think people over-analyze pronunciation and try to find out "how to position the tongue" instead of just trying to repeat what they hear.


I'm generally pretty good with this, but I always worry with Ы that I'm doing it wrong. To start with I was pronouncing it more-or-less exactly like И, then I tried pronouncing it like German Ü. I think what threw me off was when I heard the sound file here:
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/слышать

Is that sound file simply wrong, is it an alternative pronunciation, or is there something up with my hearing? That sounds much closer to У than И to me.

Anyway, I think morzh's answer has probably been the clearest, so for the time being I'll try to follow that, and hope that no Russian natives tell me I'm doing it wrong! I tried the "pushing the tongue back with a pencil" method, but that generally made a sound more like the "eaurgh" in "bleaurgh".


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## Maroseika

Demonic_Duck said:


> I'm generally pretty good with this, but I always worry with Ы that I'm doing it wrong.


Maybe you should more care about a consonant and not about a vowel. If only you pronounce the preсeding consonant hard enough, ы will be produced automatically and inevitable. The very problem with this vowel for English natives is that all English consonants are softer (or aspirated) than the hard variant of the Russian one needed before ы.


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## Natalisha

Let's try this way:
Pronounce the word "list" with sound "l" as it is pronounced before consonants (spi*l*t, fie*l*d).
I think this can help.


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## morzh

Natalisha

You are right, ideally it should work, but I tried it by following your instruction and found out it is not quite so simple.

Maroseika's analysis is correct, the softness of English consonants is at least part of the reason.

Demonic Duck:

No, trying German "Ue" is wrong for this purpose: it is actually pronounced with back of the tongue pressed against the palate, and "Ы" is like russian "A" or "O" - an open sound. Actually, German "U" like in "U-boot" (they say it as "oo-boht"), tongue position-wise is closer.


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## morzh

here. I tried it - seems to work, of course, with some degree of variation depending on how one pronounces "i" sound.

Now, try to pronounce English "ee" sound, like in "peek"/"wheat".

For pronouncing "ы" your front (lips/jaws mostly, and all the facial muscle that make the position) should remain in that same "ee"-position.

Now just pull your tongue to open the throat, like in open-type sounds. 
While at it, here's the fine adjustment:

Trying to keep the front still set for "ee", regulate your back (tongue and throat) slightly (very slightly!) to hear the sound that still closer to "ee" than to "ah" or "oh".

By all means, use the feedback - listen to someone pronouncing the sound.

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Once done with the sound standalone, (no words in Russian start with "Ы", unless invented for the sole purpose to look extremely weird, mostly some Sci-fi names, to underscore the "Non-earth" origin of the name, like "Ыш Уэпп"  ), try it with consonants in "Бык, ты, дым, кыш, мышь, вы". Notice (as Maroseika said) how hardness of Russian consonants naturally helps forming "Ы" sound.


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## estreets

Well, as a piece of advice.
As far as I understand, to pronounce Ы one must draw his tongue back (while when pronouncing И the tongue is pressed against the lower teeth).
So if one draws his tongue back and tries to pronounce И it would not be И but a sound close to Ы (not exact Ы but very close to it).


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## estreets

to merquiades 
No, it doesn't sound like 'euil'. 'euil' is quite different.
And Ы is not a diphthong.


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## prinjon

estreets said:


> to merquiades
> No, it doesn't sound like 'euil'. 'euil' is quite different.
> And Ы is not a diphthong.



I confirm. Nothing to do.


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## morzh

merquiades said:


> Hi. I think, but I need confirmation, that this Russian vowel (sorry I can't write cause I don't have a Cyrillic keyboard) is very close to the short /i/ pronounced with a really strong deep southern American English accent.   You know where Bill kind of sounds likes it's moving toward Bail, and Will sounds like it has a bit of Whale. Am I right?  Anyway, that's how I have started pronouncing it, maybe exaggerating it and moving it as far back as possible.  So it makes for a clear distinction with beer.
> 
> It might sound it bit like the French combination euil, like in Argenteuil



No it is not that close to the "i" with the "drawl". It is actually closer to that same short "i" without southern accent, provided it is still the American "i" in the close syllable. And in some individuals it gets pretty close, but still not quite the same.

Southerners make dual sounds out of mono-sounds, like "dawg" (close to "dah-owg") out of "dog". "Ы" - is a mono-sound. Not a complex one.

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I think Estreets and I kinda agreed in how to try to pronounce it: make the front-mouth part as if to pronounce "ee" (like in "peek") and pull your tongu back as if to pronounce any open sound, like russian "A".

----

PS. Do not try to find American English (or British for that matter) approximations - for most sounds, except few very basic ones, like open vowels "ah/oh/uh" there are almost none. In Spanish - there are quite a few.


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## Angelo di fuoco

fuLya said:


> I guess I couldn't really figure out the pronounciation. Is it a mistake to pronounce it like in "dew" or "few"?



I think you have in Turkish a sound that is quite close to the Russian "ы": it's written as "i" without a dot.


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## fuLya

Angelo di fuoco said:


> I think you have in Turkish a sound that is quite close to the Russian "ы": it's written as "i" without a dot.



"ı"? really? haha than it's so easy  thanks


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## Nanon

estreets said:


> No, it doesn't sound like 'euil'. 'euil' is quite different.


I second (third?) this. Never heard a native French speaker pronouncing Argentый !...

I found this tip in another forum: "говорим ууу и улыбаемся" . Personally, I don't smile when pronouncing ы - a) yet my pronunciation is not so bad, immodest as it may sound, and b) except if I was already smiling  - but it may help some learners to get closer, though.


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## morzh

fuLya said:


> "ı"? really? haha than it's so easy  thanks



I'm not sure how it is written, but in the word "yildyz" (a star?) the last sound is fairly close. But not the same; Turkish "i" is a bit less open and it creates that characteristic sound that is closer to German "umlauted" sound. I am judging from Azerbajani speaking, but I also heard Turks saying it - close enough to Azeri. 
So, yes - it is similar, but less open than needs to be to fully resemble Russian "Ы".


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## Sobakus

I find it impossible to not pronounce Ы when trying to combine the Russian [х] with _. You either palatalize the [х] and get хи or you say хы. Guess that's where that widespread internet "ыыы" comes from: хи=>хы=hы=ы._


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## tregina12000

Does it sound anything like "we"?  That is how it sounds to me most of the time, but I am partially deaf in one ear and that makes learning new sounds interesting...


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## Angelo di fuoco

No, it doesn't.


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## morzh

tregina12000 said:


> Does it sound anything like "we"?  That is how it sounds to me most of the time, but I am partially deaf in one ear and that makes learning new sounds interesting...



Nope.


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## tregina12000

Wow.  A one word answer from morzh.  The matter is truly closed!


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