# 把 - 把基础打好了



## lautaro

Dear all,
I need some more information on using this 把 particle. When it is used? What meaning does it give to the sentences? Does using it or not change the meaning of the sentence?

I looking forward to your replies.

非常感谢！


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## viajero_canjeado

把 can be used in different ways. Do you perhaps have a sample sentence containing the particular usage you're asking about?


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## lautaro

You are right,
here are two examples. In the two sentences 把 has different positions. In the first sentence it seems to stand for an imperative nuance; in the second one its presence does not influence the meaning at all: it can be deleted with no embarrassment for the message.

1. 我觉得学习汉语很有用。*把*基础打好了，有了信心，有了兴趣，以后就，好办了。 
2. 请你*把*你的地址写一下儿。

So what is the use of this particle?

多谢！ 

LAU


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## Ghabi

Hi Lau.


lautaro said:


> In the first sentence it seems to stand for an imperative nuance;


Not imperative ... it's like "to get something done" in English. A very literal translation can be "after getting your basic skills honed". You see you can also simply say 打好了基础 "after honing your basic skills".


> in the second one its presence does not influence the meaning at all: it can be deleted with no embarrassment for the message.


No, you can't simply delete it. If you want to do without it, you've to say 请你写一下你的地址.


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## lautaro

Thank you for your answer. So in the first sentence the meaning is something like "having done this/that"...fine!
The second one seems to be quite unclear: do I have to use it or not? I do not mean possibility; between this two what is the correct one? 

请你写一下你的地址. 
 请你把你的地址写一下儿。

LAU


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## ichigogo

Er...Hello i'm chinese...About 把, well, it's a little bit complicated... We did a lot of practice about "把&被" too when we were young.

请你写一下你的地址。
请你把你的地址写一下儿。

So you see these two sentences, they are both right, they just equal to each other.
But, let's analyze them a little bit.

请你《--This is “please+you”=would you please ××××
写《--This is the verb in these sentences.
一下《--This is just a measure word. You can consider it as a "once"(one time). 
你的地址<--This is "your address", it's the noun in these sentences.

The sequence of these words in the first sentence is like:
a word for require something+verb+a measure word+noun
just like in English we say "to do something".

But in the second sentence, we have:
a word for require something+把+noun+verb+a measure word
it's like... Yes, to get something done. But you see,it change the position of the verb(predicate) and the noun(object).

So, for example we say,

我吃了鱼。（I ate some fish.）《-- Here I edited after Ghabi remind me.
我把鱼吃了。（The fish is eaten by me.）

But the things what people want to express are exactly the same(thanks to Ghabi, now we know here I had a mistake), just sometimes when you use a 把, it could make the sentence more interesting. I said SOMETIMES.

My English is really poor, so I don't know if you can understand what i'm saying


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## viajero_canjeado

Your English is far from poor, ichigogo, though you could strive to use the shift key more. 
Lautaro, there's a few other threads on 把 which you can look up that you might find helpful, including this one.


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## lautaro

Thanks to both and to ichigogo: I have to say that no explanations has ever been clearer in English and in any other language. 
I think I started getting something. I now have a look to the suggested thread. 

LAU


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## Ghabi

ichigogo said:


> 我吃鱼了。（i ate some fish.）
> 我把鱼吃了。（the fish is eaten by me.）
> 
> but the things what people want to express are exactly the same ...


I don't want to be fussy, but to say these two utterances are the same is misleading. These two sayings are used to answer different questions, for example: 

-(Assume that I'm allergic to seafood) "你為什麼病了?" "我吃魚了。" "Why were you sick?" "[Because] I ate fish."

-(Mom is looking for the piece of fried fish she's just made) "魚在哪裡?" "我吃了" or "我把魚吃了" "Where's the fish?" "I've eaten it."

You see in the first example 魚 is indefinite ("fish"), while in the second it's "the fish". Remember that you can only use 把 with something definite. For example, when you say 我把人殺了, you mean you've killed a particular person (your boss/wife/husband), not "I've killed someone", which would be 我殺了人.


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## ichigogo

Ghabi,

Thank you for correct me, I finally find a way to explain all those to my boyfriend clearly.>_<
But I still have some question about your answer,

“鱼在哪里？”
“我吃了。”/”我把鱼吃了。”

I think my mistake it's about the “了”. How do we call this element in chinese?I don't really know it, but i think, if you put it in different place the sentence could be different.
In fact “我吃了” have omitted the “鱼”, the complete sentence should be “我吃了鱼”.

So,in this case,

“鱼在哪里？”
“我吃了（鱼）。”/“我把鱼吃了。”

我吃了（鱼）=我把鱼吃了

So, I think it means when we put the element which follow the verb in the original sentence, the meaning of the whole sentence wouldn't be changed.

And look at this,

“你为什么病了？”
“我吃鱼了。”

there is nothing different between “我吃了鱼” and “我吃鱼了” in oral language, just in this case you can't omit “鱼”. But when you say, “我把鱼吃了” it will mean the person who give you the question and yourself both know which fish you are talking about, yes, it's something definite.

If we only want to make the sentences correct, we can only change the position of verb+the element how we call it, and noun. But how can we tell the different between subject+verb+了+noun and subject+verb+noun+了? Are they same or not? Does it mean when we change the position of “了” it already make the things we talk about definite?
Well,it's another problem now.

Thank you again Ghabi.

ichigogo


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## Ghabi

Hi Ichigogo,



ichigogo said:


> I think my mistake it's about the “了”. How do we call this element in chinese?I don't really know it, but i think, if you put it in different place the sentence could be different.


No, the use of the aspect marker 了 doesn't concern us here.



> In fact “我吃了” have omitted the “鱼”, the complete sentence should be “我吃了鱼”.


To say the latter is the "complete sentence" of the former is misleading. Both utterances are "complete", but they're used in different contexts. When mom asks "Where's the fish?", you would answer "我吃了", not “我吃了鱼”. When mom asks "What did you eat for lunch?', you would answer “我吃了鱼”, not "我吃了".



> there is nothing different between “我吃了鱼” and “我吃鱼了” in oral language ...


This is right.



> ... just in this case you can't omit “鱼”.


As I say above, "我吃了" is a complete, intact, unimpaired utterance by itself. But if you insist it's an "ommitted" version of something, then you should say it's an omitted version of               "那尾鱼,我吃了", with the topic omitted. It's not an omitted version of "我吃了鱼”.

BUT PLEASE NOTE that in Chinese as in Japanese, we don't mention the topic again once it's been established, so it doesn't really make sense to say "the topic is omitted"! 



> But when you say, “我把鱼吃了” it will mean the person who give you the question and yourself both know which fish you are talking about, yes, it's something definite.


Yup, this is correct.

I hope I haven't introduced further confusion. Actually my little contribution to this thread is simply: Use 把 only when you're talking about something definite!


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## xiaolijie

I'd like very much to help but for various reasons, I don't think an internet website is a good place for (asking or answering) grammatical questions involving complex issues. Personally I'd look up the usage of "把" in a good grammar book or dictionary and use internet forums for follow-ups or something more tangible, such as whether a particular sentence is correct, acceptable, etc.


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