# Mortum rex pax domini



## MeatSpinner

Good day, friends!

I am happy owner the medal with "Mortum rex pax domini'' text engraved on it. And this sentense became intresting for me. I searched something about in internet and found only dry "A dead king, God of peace". And what it could generally mean? And where and when it noticed firsty and who used that?


   Best regards and thank you for attention!


----------



## Scholiast

Salvete amci!

This text is certainly a curiosity. For a start, it cannot be exactly right, as _mortum_ does not exist - it is most likely a mistranscription for _mortuum_, contracted genitive plural of _mortuus_, so that _mortuum rex_ will indeed mean "King of the dead". If the remainder, _pax domini_, is accurately transcribed here, it means "peace of the lord" - or more likely, "of the Lord". But the connexion between the two halves of the motto is still unclear. Like Russian, Latin can frequently omit parts of the verb "to be", but to assume a copular meaning here yields little better sense - "the king of the dead is the peace of the Lord" (???).

Perhaps MeatSpinner would care to check that his transcription is indeed fully accurate - and perhaps tell us where and how he came by this medallion.

Σ


----------



## MeatSpinner

Scholiast said:


> Perhaps MeatSpinner would care to check that his transcription is indeed fully accurate - and perhaps tell us where and how he came by this medallion.
> 
> Σ




   Definately accurate! By the way, it is the most popular latin motto on medallions. Nothing much about extraction - this peace of happines came to me from sunny China recently  I just love to dress my neck up with various garbage.

   Thank you for notice, i hope your answer is exactly close to undisputed truth


----------



## Scholiast

salvete iterum!



> it is the most popular latin motto on medallions. Nothing much about  extraction - this peace of happines came to me from sunny China recently



In that case I can only assume that this is just nonsense, imitating "real" Latin but not in fact designed or manufactured by anyone who really knows the language. Sorry if this is a disappointment.

Σ


----------



## ablativ

Scholiast said:


> For a start, it cannot be exactly right, as _mortum_ does not exist - [...]


Hi Scholiast,

As far as I know (or more honestly speaking: as far as I found out  ), "mortum" does exist as a variant (mixed declination) of "mortium" = genitive plural of "mors".

So it's *not *_king of the dead - _I think it is _king of *deaths. *_In German: _König der Tode. _(You can die many deaths.) The motto perhaps: There is a king of (the?) deaths ( = the devil), and there is peace of the Lord.


----------



## Scholiast

salvete et iterum


> As far as I know (or more honestly speaking: as far as I found out  ), "mortum" does exist as a variant (mixed declination) of "mortuum" = genitive plural of "mors".
> 
> So it's *not *_king of the dead - _I think it is _king of *deaths. *_In German: _König der Tode. _(You can die many deaths.) The motto perhaps: There is a king of (the?) deaths ( = the devil), and there is peace of the Lord.



This is such an ingenious attempt to rescue sense from the thing it is almost brilliant. I can only appeal to Occam's razor: is it likelier that an inscription emanating from (and apparently mass-produced ["the most popular latin motto on medallions", # 3] in) China reproduces a rare genitive plural form and a sense for the entire motto so arcane that even when unravelled it remains oracular in its obscurity, or that some numpty with vague awareness of Christian Latin and perhaps access to Google translate has invented it?

I rest my case.

Σ


----------



## wandle

Lewis & Short are careful to give alternative and obscure forms, but in this case they do not give *mortum* as an alternative to *mortium*. This makes me doubt that _*mortum*_ exists at all as a Latin word. What is the authority for the source quoted in post 5?

L&S do say that *mors* can mean 'a dead body'. However, even so, and even if _*mortum*_ does exist, it still seems very unlikely that anyone meant to say on a medal: 'King of Corpses; Peace of the Lord'. What sense would that make?

What else does the medal show? Is there any image on either side?


----------



## MeatSpinner

wandle said:


> What else does the medal show? Is there any image on either side?



   In spite of the legend has knotty sense, it looks enchanting


----------



## Flaminius

The reverse side of the medal reads; ALGHIMY.

If the designer does not care to check the English spelling 'almighty', I'd say that they can be more careless about the Latin orthography.


----------



## wandle

I believe in fact that word reads ALCHEMY, and the whole thing seems to relate to video gaming. Sottic may be a username.
Hence it may be that *rex mortum* is intended to mean 'King of the Dead', but has been misspelled.


----------



## ablativ

wandle said:


> This makes me doubt that _*mortum*_ exists at all as a Latin word. What is the authority for the source quoted in post 5?


(Sorry for the typo in my post #5) There are several words that follow the same pattern of declination - as you know better than I do: vox, vocis f. ---> vocum/vocium (Gen. Pl.) or: crux, crucis f. ---> crucum/crucium or here from another source: mors, mortis f. ---> mortum/(mortium)

... and some more (ars, artis f): all with at least two consonants before the -is of the genitive sgl., belonging to the linguistic variants of the i-declination.


----------



## wandle

That source is not original, nor is the source in post 5. They are both derivative, but we do not know what they are derived from. The only primary source for Latin word-formation is the Latin texts of ancient authors themselves. The decisive question is not what a grammar book (or webpage) says, but what the ancient authors actually wrote.
A scholarly dictionary is a primary source, in so far as it gives actual citations from ancient authors, as Lewis & Short do.

The word* mors* is not common in the plural. The only form for the genitive plural given by Lewis & Short is *mortium*, quoted from Tacitus.
That does not mean *mortum* was never used by an ancient author, but we have not yet seen evidence of it.

Let us review the possibilities. What did the writer of the medal motto intend to write? There are three possibilities: *mortum*, *mortium*, or *mortuum*.

If he meant to write *mortum* or *mortium*, then the intended meaning would have to be either 'King of Deaths' or 'King of Corpses'.
Either of those meanings is strange.

If he wrote *mortum* thinking it meant 'King of the Dead', then he has made a mistake: 'King of the Dead' would be *rex mortuum*.
Thus in this case, he has either misspelled *mortuum*., or he has mistakenly used the word for death instead of the word for dead.

Another possibility is that he meant 'King of the Dead', and intended correctly to write *rex mortuum*, but then for some reason this was misspelled as *mortum*.


----------



## ablativ

You can buy this medal for $23.00 at < a website > .  "Mortum Rex Pax Domini" is supposed to mean (according to the seller) "A dead king's peace" which does indeed not follow any grammatical rules of the Latin language.

Shouldn't that be _Pax cum regi mortuo sit ? _Or without "cum" and "esse", just dative: _Pax regi mortuo_ ? _Friede dem toten König!_ Referring to the medal: Pax domini cum regi mortuo sit ...


----------



## wandle

ablativ said:


> "Mortum Rex Pax Domini" is supposed to mean (according to the seller) "A dead king's peace" .


Of course it does not mean that. 'A dead king's peace' has little meaning anyway. The peace of death (if it makes sense to think in those terms at all) is absolutely equal and common to everyone. The idea of the peace of death is better expressed by *quies* or _*requies*_. Hence it would be *regis mortui requies*.

It is obvious that the seller does not know Latin, is unaware of the problems in the medal motto and is just putting some words together to help the sale of the medal. There is no reason to think that the seller's phrase has anything to do with the origin of the expression. As suggested earlier, the motto may be the result of a clumsy attempt at Latin by someone involved in video gaming, who may be better at that than at languages.


----------



## mrw0lfe

Hey guys, i was searching on ebay for some stuff & i got to this medallion.You know, I don't really know anything at all of Latin ,but being my first language a degenerative of it(Portuguese), the phrase Mortum Rex Pax Domini could mean "Com o rei morto a páz dominará"(With the king Dead, peace will rule).I dunno, i just think it makes more sense no? x)


----------



## wandle

mrw0lfe said:


> the phrase Mortum Rex Pax Domini could mean "Com o rei morto a páz dominará"(With the king Dead, peace will rule).I dunno, i just think it makes more sense no? x)


Unfortunately, it could not mean that. The fact is that the 'Latin' does not make sense.


----------



## bearded

> Wandle:
> 'King of the dead' would be *rex mortuum*


Shouldn'it be 'rex mortuorum'?


----------



## wandle

bearded man said:


> Shouldn't it be 'rex mortuorum'?


Yes, of course it should! How did I fail to notice that? (I was trying to find something close to the actual text, but how that mistake came in, I do not know.)


----------



## Valeria Mesalina

Hello,

I have no idea about Chinese Latin; but in Spain we're used to fake Latin tee-shirts and stickers and medallions and whatelse; far too many, I'm afraid. This bit "Mortum rex pax domini" to my eyes looks like a variant of "mortum rex pax homini" (I've already seen it). It's supposed to mean "The king is dead, peace among men". It's nonsense, of course.


----------



## Scholiast

salvete amici omnes

With reference to ## 17 and 18 above:

A&G [1.]*49.* * a. ....
**d.*  						The genitive plural often has -um or (after 								 								*v* 							) -om (cf. § 6. _a_) instead of 								-ōrum, especially in the 							poets: as,  								*deum* 							,  								*superum* 							, dīvom, of the 								gods; 							virum, of men. Also in 							compounds of  								*vir* 							, and in many words of money, measure, and weight: as, 								Sēvirum, of the 								Seviri; 							nummum, of coins; 							iūgerum, of acres.

Not that this helps make sense of nonsense, however.

Σ


----------



## wandle

Scholiast said:


> salvete amici omnes
> 
> With reference to ## 17 and 18 above:
> 
> A&G [1.]*49.* * a. ....
> **d.*                          The genitive plural often has -um or (after                                                                  *v*                            &nbsp -om (cf. § 6. _a_) instead of                                 -ōrum, especially in the                             poets: as,                                  *deum*                             ,                                  *superum*                             , dīvom, of the                                 gods;                             virum, of men. Also in                             compounds of                                  *vir*                             , and in many words of money, measure, and weight: as,                                 Sēvirum, of the                                 Seviri;                             nummum, of coins;                             iūgerum, of acres.
> 
> Not that this helps make sense of nonsense, however.
> 
> Σ


Yes. Now I must backtrack on my backtracking (of course, I knew this all along, but was momentarily flummoxed).


----------



## wtrmute

mrw0lfe said:


> Hey guys, i was searching on ebay for some stuff & i got to this medallion.You know, I don't really know anything at all of Latin ,but being my first language a degenerative of it(Portuguese), the phrase Mortum Rex Pax Domini could mean "Com o rei morto a paz dominará"(With the king Dead, peace will rule).I dunno, i just think it makes more sense no? x)



Please be careful about thinking that one can squeak by just because one speaks a close language; as a fellow Portuguese speaker, I've seen far too many people think they can get by (for example) in a Spanish-speaking country just talking Portuguese.  In the same vein, there are ten centuries between late Latin and early modern Portuguese: if modern students have difficulty understanding Camões, how much more will they have understanding Jerome!

Particularly, you can't replace "domini" with "dominar(á)" since it lacks the stem vowel (a) after the n.  This means that "domini" has to be a noun (in fact, the progenitor of modern "dono" and the title "D." used with noblemen and bishops).

I rather think that, if this was written by a Chinese person, it would probably be closer to "the King is dead.  Peace [be] to the lord [that is, to the king]".  In this case it would probably be "Rex mortuus [est]. Pax domino [sit].", or more idiomatically, "Rex mortuus est. Requiescat dominus in pacem."


----------



## Autumnshroud

wandle said:


> I believe in fact that word reads ALCHEMY, and the whole thing seems to relate to video gaming. Sottic may be a username.
> Hence it may be that *rex mortum* is intended to mean 'King of the Dead', but has been misspelled.



Alchemy is a British gothic jewelry/housewares/etc. company--they have nothing to do with gaming.  

Home - Alchemy Gothic Official Site


----------



## Copperknickers

Valeria Mesalina said:


> Hello,
> 
> I have no idea about Chinese Latin; but in Spain we're used to fake Latin tee-shirts and stickers and medallions and whatelse; far too many, I'm afraid. This bit "Mortum rex pax domini" to my eyes looks like a variant of "mortum rex pax homini" (I've already seen it). It's supposed to mean "The king is dead, peace among men". It's nonsense, of course.



This is the only post in this thread which comes close to making sense of this imo. 'Pax homini' seems a lot more likely than 'pax domini'.

Clearly the manufacturers of this medallion think nobody understands Latin any more and so we will not notice if they just make up random sentences with Latin words. Ut a Dis Manibus in aterrimo angulo Orci detrahantur.*

*May the Gods of the Underworld drag them down to the darkest recess of Hades.


----------



## Scholiast

salvete iterum!



Copperknickers said:


> Ut a Dis Manibus in aterrimo angulo Orci detrahantur.*
> 
> *May the Gods of the Underworld drag them down to the darkest recess of Hades.



Sentiment thoroughly endorsed, and it pains me to have to correct an erudite Scotsman, but _in aterrim_*um*_ angul_*um*, please.

Σ


----------



## gabal

Please forgive me, my level of latin is low as my english!
I think , that mortum variation of mortuum is an adjective in acusative , so mortum rex pax domini, could mean "to a king dead, peace of the lord" being the lord a new king. In spanish we say "a rey muerto, rey puesto" the king is dead , life to the new one!


----------



## Cagey

No, _mortum_ isn't an adjective of _'rex'_. An adjective of _rex _would have to be in the same case (nominative/subject case) and gender (masculine) as the noun _rex_.  Whatever it is, (see the discussion above) 'mortum' is not in the nominative masculine.

It is possible to read _pax domini _as "peace of the lord" or "the lord's peace".
There is nothing to indicate it this would be the lord of the king.


*Added*: My apologies, I didn't mean to be unfriendly.  These puzzles are interesting to everyone, and your native language has evolved from Latin.  Some features in Latin will be familiar to you, such as the fact that nouns and adjectives have gender.


----------



## gabal

Cagey said:


> No, _mortum_ isn't an adjective of _'rex'_. An adjective of _rex _would have to be in the same case (nominative/subject case) and gender (masculine) as the noun _rex_.  Whatever it is, (see the discussion above) 'mortum' is not in the nominative masculine.
> 
> It is possible to read _pax domini _as "peace of the lord" or "the lord's peace".
> There is nothing to indicate it this would be the lord of the king.
> 
> 
> *Added*: My apologies, I didn't mean to be unfriendly.  These puzzles are interesting to everyone, and your native language has evolved from Latin.  Some features in Latin will be familiar to you, such as the fact that nouns and adjectives have gender.


  thanks for your reply, I apologized before posting , because i knew could say nonsense, but if mortuum its not an adjective , but a noun in acusative it could mean "The king to the dead, the peace of the lord", so to say, the king gives the dead, the peace of the Lord and be gramatically correct?


sorry Im trying to learn


----------



## PokeFreak

MeatSpinner said:


> Good day, friends!
> 
> I am happy owner the medal with "Mortum rex pax domini'' text engraved on it. And this sentense became intresting for me. I searched something about in internet and found only dry "A dead king, God of peace". And what it could generally mean? And where and when it noticed firsty and who used that?
> 
> 
> Best regards and thank you for attention!


Hey MeatSpinner, the inscription on your medal actually reads "Dead King's Peace" rather than "A Dead King's Piece" as is described in the description of the page on google. Nice medal by the way!


----------



## PokeFreak

Pax Domini rex Mortuum translates to "Peace of the Dead", so this is what it may also mean


----------



## Copperknickers

PokeFreak said:


> Pax Domini rex Mortuum translates to "Peace of the Dead", so this is what it may also mean



To be clear, 'pax Domini rex mortuum' would translate to 'The peace of the Lord, the king of the dead' and makes no real sense.


----------



## gabal

Copperknickers said:


> To be clear, 'pax Domini rex mortuum' would translate to 'The peace of the Lord, the king of the dead' and makes no real sense.


T
Mortum is the past participle of the verb morior. So Rex mortum means, the king has  died Or the king has been dead,  the peace of the Lord -Pax Domini- be with him ( this is omitted)


----------



## bearded

gabal said:


> Mortum is the past participle of the verb morior. So Rex mortum means, the king has died Or the king has been dead


Sorry, I cannot agree. Mortuum is either accusative (direct object) singular, or  genitive plural (= of the dead ones).  ''The king has died'' would read _rex mortuu*s* (est). _I substantially agree with Copperknickers.


----------



## gabal

bearded man said:


> Sorry, I cannot agree. Mortuum is either accusative (direct object) singular, or  genitive plural (= of the dead ones).  ''The king has died'' would read _rex mortuu*s* (est). _I substantially agree with Copperknickers.


Why,a substantive here dont makes sense, it is a verb , the  preterite participle of morior is mortum , so Rex mortum  means the king has died   .And has more sense that "the king of the dead ones peace of the lord"
Rex mortuus est , is "the king is dead" , not "the king has died" there is a difference


----------



## bearded

'Rex mortum' does not exist in Latin the way you mean it.  The 3rd person perfect of the verb 'morior' is _mortuus est _corresponding to English 'has died'. You can find that in any Latin grammar/manual.  The distinction between 'is dead' and 'has died' only exists in English, not in Latin or in most  Romance languages (if he has died, he is dead: _mortuus est / è morto / il est mort ..). _Spanish is the exception (with _ha muerto _vs. _está muerto _it behaves like English.


----------



## Copperknickers

gabal said:


> T
> Mortum is the past participle of the verb morior. So Rex mortum means, the king has  died Or the king has been dead,  the peace of the Lord -Pax Domini- be with him ( this is omitted)



1. There is no such word in Latin as 'mortum'. The word is 'mortuum', with two U's. 

2. 'mortuum' can have two meanings:

       a - the neuter past participle of the verb 'morior' is 'mortuus/a/um,' which means 'dead/having died'. However, it cannot be referring to the king if this is the case, because 'rex' is masculine, whereas 'mortuum' in the nominative would be neuter.

       b - the accusative of the substantive noun derived from the above, 'mortuus', in which case it means 'corpse/dead person'. But if it is accusative, it cannot be referring to the king, because 'rex' is nominative.

It could also be a shortened form of the genitive plural of either of those, in a poetic context, as Scholiast says above, in which case it would be referring to multiple dead people. As there is only one subject, 'rex', we must assume that 'mortuorum' is used substantively, i.e. 'of the dead' i.e. the souls in the Underworld.


----------



## bearded

Copperknickers said:


> There is no such word in Latin as 'mortum'.





ablativ said:


> ''mortum" does exist as a variant (mixed declination) of "mortium"


Not that this would make any substantial difference: the whole allegedly Latin sentence remains meaningless.



Copperknickers said:


> To be clear, 'pax Domini rex mortuum' would translate to 'The peace of the Lord, the king of the dead' and makes no real sense.


----------



## Scholiast

salvete commilitones!

May I just draw attention back to my own earlier contribution (#6) and especially that of wandle (#14) in this thread? The wording of the inscription is gibberish, and cannot be treated as if it were anything remotely resembling "real" Latin.

Σ


----------



## Littlevalshea

This is a posthumous service medal.
 I think rather than literal translation, you should use figurative speech.
Mortum rex, "a valiant or kingly death, (heroic.)"
Pax domini, "may you rest in the peace of the lord."
Possibly an award for someone making a great sacrifice, culminating in death. 
Examples : A soldier throwing himself on a hand grenade, or destroying a machine gun nest. This award would be given to the family of the departed to honor their beloved sacrifice.


----------



## Scholiast

Greetings all round

If Littlevalshea (# 39) is right, then so be it. But maybe I should have put in a reference back to # 13: you can buy this medal for $23.00 at < a website >.

Σ

Edited to remove link to commercial website. (No criticism intended.)
Cagey, moderator


----------



## DogGoneMadDog

As I've been told by a professor at my local university when I showed this medallion to him - yes, I own it as well & it's made by the jewelry company Alchemy but can be bought from wholesale dealers throughout China, Taiwan, Hong Kong (yes, I know Hong Kong is a part of China now), & even Laos - the inscription should be read, "Pax Domini, Mortum Rex", & it translates to, "Peace of the Lord, Dead King." In other words, it is a memorial phrase that is addressing the "Dead King" to go in or find or be blessed with the Lord's peace in death or the Afterlife. No, it doesn't say, "Go in the [Peace of the Lord, dead King]” but as anyone who is Catholic knows, during Mass when we turn to one another to greet & shake hands, we say, "[May the] Peace of the Lord [be with you]” but typically omit the "May the" start & often the "be with you" ending for brevity so the other person can reply, "[And] also to you", so both people can then turn to the next person & do the same, & so on with as many nearby practitioners as we can during the pause the Priest allows in Mass. Thus, the literal Christian translation of, "Pax Domini, Mortum Rex", is, "[May the] Peace of the Lord [be with you], dead King." As the Professor not only teaches basic & advanced Latin but is a fellow practitioner at my Church who has spent his life read on & studying the Dark & Middle Ages (as have I as a 2nd generation America from Roman Catholic SICILIAN roots), I believe that he is 100% accurate that this is a Roman phrase said during the funeral Mass for royalty as well as having been often inscribed on their tombs. He showed me numerous pictures of this inscription on different tombs & gravestones throughout Europe wherever Catholicism is, or ever was, practiced en mass or at least by the entombed Monarchy & most likely that entire generation of their royal family. And, yes, in proper Latin "dead" is written "mortuum" but in Romanized Latin double vowels are typically reduced to just a single vowel for brevity by the Clergy/Scholars since they had to write everything by hand & were usually called on by people far & wide to write anyrhing & everything needing to be written down for official purposes in the Dark & Middle Ages because it was almost only the Clergy who had any or enough education to read or write at all in those times. Thus time was always urgently pressed for the scholastic clergy, especially when they were also attempting to mass WRITE Bible after Bible after Bible, in Latin, by hand! Yikes!


----------



## DogGoneMadDog

D'oh! I knew I should have proofread before posting! The actual name of the British jewelry company that makes this medallion is, "Alchemy Gothic", but is truncated to just "Alchemy" on some of their pieces as they are too small for the company's full name to be inscribed. Their site is their full name minus the space between the words - kinda like my name! Peace, Love, & Eternal Harmony to ALL!


----------



## Pietruzzo

DogGoneMadDog said:


> He showed me numerous pictures of this inscription on different tombs & gravestones throughout Europe


Interesting. It would be great if you showed us just one of those pictures. I'd be happy to change my mind, i.e. that people spend their money for a fake latin motto.


----------



## Pietruzzo

DogGoneMadDog said:


> If you don't know that in "modern", Romanized Latin the standard practice (especially for the sake of speed & brevity) was to shorten most occurrences of double vowels to just a single vowel, then you already don't know enough of the form of Latin used in that inscription to attempt to support or deny the information presented by an actual student & from a teacher of that form. I


The main issue is not the single/double "u" but the fact that a latin adjective /participle has to agree in gender, number and case  with the noun it refers to. So, since "rex" is either nominative or vocative, the possible options would be "mortuus rex" or "mortue rex". "Mortu(u)m rex is not possible, unless it stands for "mortuorum" and in that case it would mean "king of the dead". This rule is valid for all ages including the Middle Age.
Sorry about repeating what had been said in the previous posts but apparently it wasn't enough.


----------



## Scholiast

Greetings again


Pietruzzo said:


> Mortu(u)m rex is not possible, unless it stands for "mortuorum" ...


In some mediaeval manuscripts can be found -*ū*- for 'uu'.
But I remain as sceptical about the validity of this whole phrase.
Σ


----------

