# Schwa in Brazilian Portuguese



## avok

Hello,

Having read many posts about the Portuguese language and the differences between European Portuguese and Brazilian Portuguese, I have come to the conclusion that many Brazilians may not be fully aware of the schwa sound <ə> in European Portuguese. Schwa may be found in words like "d*e*", "p*e*rgunta" etc. in European Portuguese. 

Well, actually it is one of the most common sounds in European Portuguese. To me, this sound is one of the most important markers of the European Portuguese. Even "chiado" is less European than schwa sound since it - chiado- can be found not just in Portugal but in many parts of Brazil too. 

I guess, all of the "*unstressed e*" sounds in European Portuguese are schwa. But in Brazil, the European schwa is mostly "i" and sometimes "e" ex: European "də" is "di/dji" in Brazil and European "p*ə*rgunta" is Brazilian "p*e*rgunta". 

Anyway, I just want to know what sound *"Brazilians"* hear/think of , when they hear the word "d*e*" pronounced by a Portuguese person?

* Do you think that the Portuguese pronounce "de" as "de" in Spanish?

*Do you think they pronounce "de" as "dê" in Portuguese itself.

*Do you think they pronounce "de" as "di" but "di" is not palatalised as in Brazilian Portuguese?

Do you, Brazilians, feel this "e sound" of "de" in European Portuguese is just a "closed e" or it is a sound on its own? When Brazilian actors imitate the Portuguese accent how do they pronounce this sound? 

However, the European "d*e*" and the English "th*e*" are almost identical. (Not just the "e" part but also the "d" part are the same  as many portuguese pronounce this "d" of "de" as "th" in English, so "de" :"the")

PS: Sorry for the long post.


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## Dom Casmurro

I had neve heard of a _schwa sound_ before, and was amazed when Google returned 18,400 results for it. The vowel topic is very popular in this forum. If you can read Portuguese, go here to check loads of opinions on that, by both Portuguese and Brazilian people. Your assumption that the pronunciation of *de* in Portugal sounds like *the* in English is certainly interesting. I'm inclined to agree, even when it comes to the *th* sound.


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## Outsider

avok said:


> Having read many posts about the Portuguese language and the differences between European Portuguese and Brazilian Portuguese, I have come to the conclusion that many Brazilians may not be fully aware of the schwa sound <...> in European Portuguese. Schwa may be found in words like "d*e*", "p*e*rgunta" etc. in European Portuguese.


"Schwa" is a curiously ambiguous word. The IPA symbol you wrote is for the mid central vowel, but the unstressed "e" of EP is not a mid central vowel; it's near-close near-back. Confusingly, the EP unstressed "a" is actually closer to a mid central vowel than the unstressed "e", at least judging by the chart here.



avok said:


> I guess, all of the "*unstressed e*" sounds in European Portuguese are schwa.


Not all. Nasal unstressed "e"s are always front vowels, and there are a few other exceptions; for example, the "e" in "aquecido" is pronounced "é".

(Just a few corrections and notes I thought I should make. I'm also interested in the replies to your question.)


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## Alandria

The "a" in "c*a*ma", "m*a*ma", "f*ã*" (THEY *DON'T* NAZALIZE THE "A"), "hortel*ã*" (THEY *DON'T* NAZALIZE THE "A") is close to Schwa in paulistano and sulista accent.


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## Outsider

No entanto, não é uma vogal átona... Vê como as coisas se complicam?


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## Alandria

Ouçam. (imitando minhas colegas paulistanas, elas falam com essa entonação o tempo inteiro )
Então, Out...
Estávamos discutindo se o schwa aparecia alguma vez no português brasileiro, mas acho que coisa próxima existe. Basta ouvir o arquivo.


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## avok

Dom Casmurro said:


> I had neve heard of a _schwa sound_ before, and was amazed when Google returned 18,400 results for it. The vowel topic is very popular in this forum. If you can read Portuguese, go here to check loads of opinions on that, by both Portuguese and Brazilian people. Your assumption that the pronunciation of *de* in Portugal sounds like *the* in English is certainly interesting. I'm inclined to agree, even when it comes to the *th* sound.


 
Hei, theres no way you have never heard schwa! It is the "e" sound in "togeth*e*r" or "th*e*" in English.



Outsider said:


> "Schwa" is a curiously ambiguous word. The IPA symbol you wrote is for the mid central vowel, but the unstressed "e" of EP is not a mid central vowel; it's near-close near-back. Confusingly, the EP unstressed "a" is actually closer to a mid central vowel than the unstressed "e", at least judging by the chart here.


 
Hei Outsider, I dont know if this sound is mid central or near-close  but it is exactly the "e" sound of the english word "th*e*" and I know that this "e" of "the" is called schwa. By the way, did you read this on Wikipedia? Look: It is about the "e" sound in the European Portuguese word "d*e*" or "p*e*rgunta"



> Near-close near-back unrounded vowel. There is no standard symbol in the International Phonetic Alphabet for this sound. The _IPA Handbook_ transcribes it as /ɯ̽/, *but in Portuguese studies /ɨ/ or /ə/ are traditionally used. *
> This high near central vowel exists only in EP. It is replaced with /e/ or /i/ in BP, according to its position within a word. It is almost an unstressed allophone of /e ɛ/, with which it has very few minimal pairs, excluding monosyllabic clitics. In relaxed pronunciation, it is often elided.


 
As wikipedia says there is no standard symbol for this EP sound my grammar book also uses "ə" but as I see some scholars use also /ɨ/ . You may want to know that in Turkish we have a similar sound "ı". And I was a bit surprised when I found out that wikipedia uses the symbol "ɯ" for this Turkish sound, however, it almost sounds like English "ə" or Portuguese "ə"/"ɨ" 

As theres no direct reply to my question, I guess I am right to think that Brazilians are not aware of EP /ɨ/ or /ə/. Thats why they may have trouble when they listen to Portuguese people because when they (brazilians) hear the sound /ɨ/, /ə/  they may not know with which BP sound they should associate the EP /ɨ/ /ə/. That's why Brazilians keep saying "os portugueses comem as vogais". Actually instead of eating "e" sounds Portuguese people turn them into /ɨ/ or /ə/.


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## jazyk

> As theres no direct reply to my question, I guess I am right to think that Brazilians are not aware of EP /ɨ/ or /ə/.


I hear a huge difference.


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## Dom Casmurro

avok said:


> Hei, theres no way you have never heard schwa! It is the "e" sound in "togeth*e*r" or "th*e*" in English.


I didn't say I never heard schwa sounds, I said I had never heard *of* schwa sounds.


avok said:


> As theres no direct reply to my question, I guess I am right to think that Brazilians are not aware of EP /ɨ/ or /ə/. Thats why they may have trouble when they listen to Portuguese people because when they (brazilians) hear the sound /ɨ/, /ə/ they may not know with which BP sound they should associate the EP /ɨ/ /ə/. That's why Brazilians keep saying "os portugueses comem as vogais". Actually instead of eating "e" sounds Portuguese people turn them into /ɨ/ or /ə/.


Don't jump to conclusions. The Portuguese are the first to admit that they "comem as vogais". I am Brazilian, and my opinion on that is very much the same as yours (see post #76, here), but Outsider for one, who is Portuguese, admits, adamantly, that he and his fellow countrymen are "vowel eaters" (post #81).


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## Alandria

avok said:


> Hei, theres no way you have never heard schwa! It is the  "e" sound in "togeth*e*r" or "th*e*" in English.
> 
> 
> 
> Hei Outsider, I dont know if this sound is mid central or near-close  but it is exactly the "e" sound of the english word "th*e*"  and I know that this "e" of "the" is called schwa. By the way, did you read this  on Wikipedia? Look: It is about the "e" sound in the European Portuguese word  "d*e*" or "p*e*rgunta"
> 
> 
> 
> As wikipedia says there is no standard symbol for this EP sound my grammar  book also uses "ə" but as I see some scholars  use also /ɨ/ . You may want to know that in Turkish we have a similar sound "ı".  And I was a bit surprised when I found out that wikipedia uses the symbol "ɯ"  for this Turkish sound, however, it almost sounds like English "ə" or Portuguese  "ə"/"ɨ"
> 
> As theres no direct reply to my question, I guess I am right to think that  Brazilians are not aware of EP /ɨ/ or  /ə/. Thats why they may have trouble  when they listen to Portuguese people because when they (brazilians) hear the  sound /ɨ/, /ə/ they may not know with which BP sound they  should associate the EP /ɨ/ /ə/. That's why Brazilians keep saying "os  portugueses comem as vogais". Actually instead of eating "e" sounds Portuguese  people turn them into /ɨ/ or /ə/.


 
 In parts of *southern* brazil, the final unstressed e sounds *[ɪ]* or [e]. That's the so-called accent "leite quente dá dor no dente da gente". I think *[ɪ] *is close from [ɨ].

The southern accents are *closer* from Portugal.

Listen this guy from southern Brazil:


http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=RhK1IZrgPK8


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## Outsider

Na mesma página há muitos vídeos sobre o mesmo! Reparei num com o título "Falando Leite Quente em Floripa"... "Leitê quentê"... eles, sim, falam como escrevem.


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## avok

Hmmmm noone understood what I am trying to ask  So it must be my fault. Maybe it was a long and boring post  and the "schwa in brazilian portuguese" was a misleading title .

Anyway, I simplify my question:

Hey, *Brazilians *!!!!! 

How do you think the portuguese people pronounce the word "d*e*" or "p*e*rdi"? You can use the English phonology to answer.

I answer this question. When I listen to portuguese people on radio, tv etc. I hear so many "de" and "perdi" etc.. and the portuguese "d*e*" sounds like the English "th*e*" but *not *like spanish "d*e*" or not like italian "di". Now you answer!!!!


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## ronanpoirier

Yes, avok, they pronounce it. However, in "de" and "perdi" I hear different sounds (the slashed "i" in "de" and a schwa in "perdi"). I don't think someone who's not aware of those differences can fake those sounds.
And, yes, there are schwas in my dialect. Especially when it's a final unstressed "e", or when you have an unstressed "e" before or after a fricative sounds.
However (and talking about this makes say a lot of times "however") there is a bunch of factor that would make us pronounce a schwa.


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## Denis555

Once on a Portuguese talkshow I heard a woman saying "ele terá" /əl' t'rá/ , so with a schwa sound in the beginning and two vowel swallows (Here I represented them with a apostrophe). If I had to imitate a Portuguese person, I'd be a little bit confused as when I'll have to make a schwa sound and when I'll have to swallow...
Can anyone here enlighten me about that?


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## avok

*Denis 555,*
I think when portuguese people speak fast, they swallow but when they speak slowly or with attention they use schwa.
So the woman in your example: If she spoke slowly she would go: " ɛl*ə* t*ə*ra" but when she speaks faster she goes "ɛlt'ra" or something like that.

*Of /ɨ/ or /ə/ :*

Now, according to Wikipedia these two symbols along with /ɯ̽/ represent this so-called schwa sound in EP.  So there should be no difference among these three according to Wikipedia.

Some of you say that /ɨ/ and /ə/ are different. I tried to understand why you make such a claim. I _guess _you associate /ɨ/ with the "e" sound in "quent*e*" in *BP *whereas associate /ə/ with *EP* schwa. So they sound different to you. However Wikipedia (not me) says that /ɨ/ : /ə/: /ɯ̽/: Near-close near-back unrounded vowel in *EP* as in "d*e*" 

Anyway, *Alandria* the boy in the clip does not pronounce "leite" as "leitə" but "leitê " so I would not consider it schwa. By the way he looks silly.

In BP the only schwa-like sound I can find is the final "a" in words like "car*a*, cam*a*, mari*a*, chin*a*" etc.. but not "ter*á*" 

Though I still have no clue what kind of sound Brazilians hear when they hear the EP schwa? With which English or BP sound Brazilians associate the EP schwa? The EP "de" sounds like "di, də or dê" to Brazilians ears? I guess I shant learn those.


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## Outsider

avok said:


> Some of you say that /.../ and /.../ are different.


It's not we who say it, it's the International Phonetic Alphabet! None of those three symbols you quoted from Wikipedia really represents the unstressed "e" of EP. They're used either with diacritics (the upside down "m"), or as non-standard, approximate transcriptions (the reversed "e" and the crossed "i").


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## Denis555

avok said:


> Anyway, *Alandria* the boy in the clip does not pronounce "leite" as "leitə" but "leitê " so I would not consider it schwa. By the way he looks silly..


 
You're right! And I don't think that was a spontaneous way of pronouncing "leite".



avok said:


> In BP the only schwa-like sound I can find is the final "a" in words like "car*a*, cam*a*, mari*a*, chin*a*" etc.. but not "ter*á*"


 
You're right again! It's not really a schwa but a sort of unstressed "a". 

The only example of a true schwa I can think of now is when someone does or says something stupid and you can answer by saynig /Dəə.../ sometimes spelt dãã like here .


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## Dom Casmurro

My overall reply to all Avok's questions is: - We Brazilians, with the exception of the deaf, can hear the EP schwa sounds by using our ears. And the way we recognize and process such sounds is by no means different from the way the non-deaf Russians, Chinese, French, Zimbabweans, Hungarians and Turkish, not to mention the Portuguese themselves, can recognize and process them.


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## Outsider

Outsider said:


> It's not we who say it, it's the International Phonetic Alphabet! None of those three symbols you quoted from Wikipedia really represents the unstressed "e" of EP. They're used either with diacritics (the upside down "m"), or as non-standard, approximate transcriptions (the reversed "e" and the crossed "i").


By the way, here are the sounds of the basic IPA symbols. None of them is quite the same as the EP unstressed "e".

P.S. Though the ram's horns, right next to the [o], seems pretty close.


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## MOC

Outsider said:


> By the way, here are the sounds of the basic IPA symbols. None of them is quite the same as the EP unstressed "e".
> 
> P.S. Though the ram's horns, right next to the [o], seems pretty close.


 
Really? I think the upside-down "m" is the closest to the unstressed "e" sound in EP.


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## Outsider

Perhaps you're right. I find them both close to it.


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## Denis555

Dom Casmurro said:


> My overall reply to all Avok's questions is: - We Brazilians, with the exception of the deaf, can hear the EP schwa sounds by using our ears. And the way we recognize and process such sounds is by no means different from the way the non-deaf Russians, Chinese, French, Zimbabweans, Hungarians and Turkish, not to mention the Portuguese themselves, can recognize and process them.


 
Dear Dom Casmurro,

I must say that strange things happen in the world of languages, in the case of the schwa I don't think we Brazilians have much of a problem in recognizing it. But having said that, when we're not used to a particular sound in our language we may experience problems in "hearing" it clearly, distinguishing it from other similar sounds. 

I now live in the beautiful city of Cracow, in Poland. And I must say that I have problems in "hearing" the diference between the Polish ć and cz like in grać(to play) and gracz(a player) because I'm not used to these sounds. But Polish people have problems in hearing the difference between ó and ô like in avó(grandmother) and avô(grandfather) or pode(he can) and pôde(he could) which is SO clear to US!

And having lived also in the Netherlands for 10 years and having given Portuguese lessons, there was always the problem of distinguishing f from v. So quite often the Dutch wouldn't hear the difference between faca(knife) and vaca(cow) or inverno(Winter) and inferno(hell) ! For the latter pair they'd say that they have similar meanings, anyway!


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## Dom Casmurro

All right, I can see your point when it comes to the general inability of foreigners to grasp sounds their ears are not accostumed to. And this is not about consonant and vowel pronunciation only. Take Mandarin, for instance, and its famous four tones that modify entirely the meaning of the words if pronounced incorrectly, regardless how well you can pronounce the consonants and the vowels. 

As a side remark, I think foreign language schools should put a lot more emphasis on phonetics. Not far from where you are, in Moscow, I met a Russian interpreter of Portuguese who could pronounce the trickiest BP sounds in a gracious and natural way, as if he he was a Brazilian. He told me the secret: in his language school he was obliged to spend one whole year, maybe more, getting accostumed to phonetics and intonation only, without learning a single word of the target language. Only when the students were capable of mastering those foreign sounds could they finally have their first contact with grammar and vocabulary. Isn't that amazing? Of course, that happened before the end of the Cold War, when the KGB was in need of people who could mingle with foreigners as if they were one of them.

Anyway, my previous post has to do with my opinion that, after all, the EP schwa sounds are all but a _bicho de sete cabeças_, as Avok seems to believe.  



Denis555 said:


> I now live in the beautiful city of Cracow, in Poland.


Congrats on that. I just hope your real name is not Rui (I'm sure you know what I'm talking about).


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## avok

This is really tiresome, to be honest 

Hei MOC I also think "ɯ" on the chart is the closest to the schwa sound in EP. Wikipedia  uses "ɯ" also for Turkish "ı" thus to my ears EP "de" sounds like Turkish "dı".

After all, I can say that most Brazilians dont have the slightest idea about EP   "ɯ", "/ɨ/ or /ə/" or whatever. Thats why they find it easier to understand Spanish sometimes because Spanish vowels seem to be known better by the Brazilians.

If someone asked my own question to me  





> How do you think the portuguese people pronounce the word "d*e*" or "p*e*rdi"?


 I would say : the EP "de" sounds like Turkish "dı" or English "the", thats all,  apparently Brazilians take EP pronounciation for granted.


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