# FR: prochain / dernier - place de l'adjectif



## john_riemann_soong

I've seen "prochain" put after the noun, ie. "le semaine prochaine", "l'annee prochaine", etc. but while listening to a video I noticed one of the speakers said "la prochaine fois", so now I'm a tad confused. What are the rules for this? Is the latter case perhaps just a slip-up?

*Moderator note: *multiple threads merged to create this one


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## geostan

La prochaine fois is quite correct. One also finds, though less often, la fois prochaine.

Normally with time words, other than fois, prochain follows the noun.

la semaine prochaine, le mois prochain, l'an prochain, l'année prochaine, en janvier prochain, etc.


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## Aupick

When "prochain" (and "dernier") are placed after the noun, they generally mean next (or last) in relation to the time of speaking. If I say "la semaine prochaine" right now, I mean the one that begins on 29 Nov. If I say "l'année dernière", I mean 2005.

When "prochain" (and "dernier") are placed before the noun, they generally mean next (or last) in relation to some series that must be clear from context. So you can say "la dernière année de sa vie" (last in relation to his life), "la prochaine 'semaine du goût' aura lieu début avril" (next in the series of the "semaines du goût"), "la dernière semaine des vacances (last in relation to our holidays), "c'est la dernière fois que je te dis ça", etc.


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## Mash

Afternoon, 

I've had a look through various previous threads, but the nuances of this word still escape me...

Please could you clarify whether I am correct with the following:

The last (final) year at university = L'année dernière d'université
The last (previous) year at university = La dernière année d'université

My last (final) visit to France = Ma visite dernière en France
My last (previous) visit to France = Ma dernière visite en France

The last (final) time = La fois dernière
The last (previous) time = La dernière fois

Have I the right idea?

So, for example, if I wish to say "last week I did...", I would say "La dernière semaine, j'ai fait..."? (doesn't sound right)

Thank you for your responses.


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## niko

The last (final) year at university = L'année dernière d'université  _-> La dernière année à l'/d'université_
The last (previous) year at university = La dernière année d'université  _-> L'année dernière à l'université_

My last (final) visit to France = Ma visite dernière en France  _-> ma dernière visite en France_
My last (previous) visit to France = Ma dernière visite en France 

The last (final) time = La fois dernière  _-> La dernière fois_
The last (previous) time = La dernière fois  _->  both work here !_ 



Mash said:


> Have I the right idea?


I'm afraid you don't 

Well, when you want to express _final_, "dernière" is before the noun.
But when you want to express _previous_, both can (it's not always true, for instance with "semaine", you have to put "dernière" after the noun if you want to mean _previous_) fit, and only the context will provide enough hints to make the difference ; I can't think of any rule for this last case. Suggestions anyone ? Oo


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## Maître Capello

In fact it's usually the other way around, Mash:

The last (final) year at university = La dernière année à l'université​The last (previous) year at university = L'année dernière à l'université​​My last (final) visit to France = Ma dernière visite en France​My last (previous) visit to France = Ma dernière visite en France​​The last (final) time = La dernière fois​The last (previous) time = La dernière fois = La fois dernière (It seems to me that both are possible in this case… Any other opinion?)​​Last week I did… = La semaine dernière, j'ai…​

It seems that when _dernier_ comes *after* the noun, it always means “last” in the sense of “most recent.” When it is *before*, it depends.


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## chauncy

I typed 'dernier' because the instructions ask for a specific word, but my query is more general.

The grammar section of my Collins French Dictionary says in part:

"The following common adjectives can precede the noun:

beau, bon, court, dernier, grand, gros, haut, jeune, joli, long, mauvais, petit, tel, vieux"

Does this mean that these adjectives can also *follow* the noun?

I looked this up because I noticed that the organiser of a French-speaking group I belong to has written the following in reference to the forthcoming December gathering:

"Comme l'an dernier, profitons du beau temps et des journees plus longues pour se retrouver autour d'un barbecue."

She is a native French speaker so I assume it is not a grammatical error.


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## geostan

No, it is not. dernier normally precedes the noun when it is the last of a series,  and follows in other cases.

la dernière année de ce siècle
l'année dernière

However, one finds both  la dernière fois and la fois dernière, although I prefer the first one. You can see that the conditions can be somewhat complicated. Regular reading is the best way to learn how to position adjectives.

Cheers!


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## Harmione

You can find a list of adjectives which can both follow and precede a noun, with the differences in meaning involved at 

http://french.about.com/library/weekly/aa072699.htm


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## SimoneSimon

Bonjour!

  Je remarque que on dit "la semaine prochaine," mais "la prochaine fois." Y a-t'il des règles concernant le placement de cet adjectif? Surtout, je voudrais savoir si on dit "le cour prochain" ou "le prochain cours". Le deuxième me semble meilleur, mais je ne sais pas pourquoi.


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## jusap

Hello, it is "le prochain cours," but I don't know the rule if there is one!


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## marget

La semaine prochaine is next (in a series)... next week/next month/next year.  Le prochain cours means the following one... *the* next class/*the* next time, etc.


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## geostan

Definitely prochain precedes in a series, but note that one may also say:

la fois prochaine, although I prefer la prochaine fois.

Cheers!


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## mookxi

I've browsed thru some other threads with 'dernier(e)' meaning 'latest' and i have seen some people put dernier(e) after AND before the noun but i'm not sure why.

E.g. 

La référence de derniere a George Orwell [=the latest reference to Orwell]

and

La derniere reference

? Which is the correct one? I find this is one of the hardest things to work my head around [the order] in French !

Thanks.


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## XIII56

The right order is _La dernière référence à George Orwell._
You must have seen it after the nouns in duration notions : _le mois dernier, la semaine dernière _


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## melu85

> La référence de derniere a George Orwell


doesn't sound very French to me.


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## XIII56

melu85 said:


> doesn't sound very French to me.


But Melu is right, you will never found a noun + _de_ + _dernier_


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## silverwhitemoon

Why do you say:

"l'année *prochaine*" but "la *prochaine* fois"

why  do you say  "la semaine *prochaine*" 
but say "la *prochaine* étape"

Does prochain/prochaine come before the noun?

- Anne


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## janpol

Vaste sujet !
il n'y a pas d'autre explication que l'usage
on dit aussi "la fois prochaine", "l'étape prochaine mènera les coureurs au pied des Alpes"


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## Byron de Grey

I have noticed that when "prochain/e" _follows_ the noun, it appears to signify "immediately following the present" in a set order, usually chronological order. It also usually seems to be translated in English by simply "next":

l'année prochaine = next year
le mois prochain = next month
la semaine prochaine = next week
lundi prochain = next Monday
However, when "prochain/e" _precedes_ the noun, it tends to indicate that "next" is not predictable (i.e., "whenever/whoever that may be"), or it doesn't directly follow in a set order. Also, it often seems to be translated by "_the_ next":

la prochaine fois = the next time (whenever that may be)
le prochain client = the next client (whoever that is)
la prochaine occasion = the next chance, the next opportunity (whenever that may be)
un de ces prochains jours = one of these days (whenever that may be)
I would venture to say that one usually says "la prochaine étape" because "the next stage" may occur at any time, an unpredictable time. _That's only my guess._ Also, notice that Anglophones naturally say "_the_ next stage", not "next stage", which goes along with my note above about the translation.

Of course, there's always an exception:  "un jour prochain", which translates as "someday soon". 

Byron


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## jme1323

_Le mois prochain_ vs. _Le prochain mois_ is the same as the difference between "Next month" and "the next month." 

Thus: 

_J'irai en France le mois prochain._ = I'll go to France next month.

_Le prochain mois où je rendrai visite à ma grand-mère, c'est novembre._ = The next month that I'll visit my grandmother is November.


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## Byron de Grey

Great summation! The same may apply to "dernier/ère":

C'est maintenant le mois d'octobre:

_Le mois dernier_ = last month (September)
_Le dernier mois_ = the last month (December)
_Le dernier mois de l'été_ = the last month of summer (August)


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## karlheinzlee

Hello!

I'm ALWAYS confused with the placing of adjectives in french

What I'm trying to say is ''in the last class, I forgot to mention...''

What I think is right is ''Au dernier cours, j'ai oublié de mentionner..."

But then it got me thinking, if I had said "Au cours dernier, j'ai oublié de.."

would it mean literally the 'last last class' or the most recent class that a

a student just had maybe a few days ago or the opposite?

Thank you!


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## Lacuzon

Hi,

Both are possible ! Like in English if there is no more class, le dernier cours means the last last one but if there is other classes after the day about which you are talking au dernier cours means the previous one.


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## Charlie51

In a different post, the position of "dernier" cropped up. I was told that to say "the last French lesson (the most recent or previous)", in French is
"Le dernier cours de français (note that the adjective is before the noun)".

However, in another post I've found the following:-
"The last (final) year at university = La dernière année à l'université
The last (previous) year at university = L'année dernière à l'université".

I'm now really confused! Can somebody please help?

Merci à l'avance!


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## Guill

The last (previous) year at university = l'année *précédente* à l'université.

"Dernier/Dernière" in the meaning of "previous" is often placed before the noun. However, it is only used in *direct speech*.
"Précédent(e)" is also placed after the noun (you _can_ place it before but this is very, very formal), and it's used in both direct and indirect speech (though "dernier/dernière" is more natural in direct speech).

The difference in English is the addition of "the" or not : last year/the last year. Now, I'm not a native but I think that you'd use "the former year" rather than "the last year" in indirect speech, wouldn't you ?

To finish with, "dernier/dernière" in the meaning of "final" is always placed before the noun.

I hope this is clearer now.


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## Charlie51

Merci beaucoup, Guill!

So to say "the last French lesson (the most recent or previous)", can you say, 
"le cours dernier de français" or do you have to say ""le cours précedent de français"?


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## Guill

Le cours précédent de français : the previous French lesson. Definitely not "le cours dernier".


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## Charlie51

Merci beaucoup encore une fois, Guill!

Just to clear things up, could you say "Le dernier cours de français" as I was told before?


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## Francobritannocolombien

Guill is on the right track in #26 with the idea of direct speech. But I think a few posts in the thread have muddled the water by trying to oppose two things while really considering three of them.

1. Dernier, when placed after a noun that clearly refers to a period of time (semaine, mois, année..) is always  _deictic_, i.e. it describes a point in time in relation to the time when the sentence is spoken (or written). In that respect, it belongs with "demain", "hier", "aujourd'hui", etc. Thus, "la semaine dernière" = "last week" (without "the")

2. "Previous" should not have been introduced in this thread as one of the possible meanings of "dernier". It is not deictic but _anaphoric_, i.e. it refers to a point in time in relation to _the time that another part of the sentence refers to_. In that case, it cannot be expressed by "dernier" in French, but rather by "précédent" as pointed out by Guill: "la semaine précédente" = the previous week, the week before. "Previous" and "précédent" belong with with other such anaphoric words or phrases as "la veille", "le lendemain", "ce jour-là", etc.

3. When "dernier" means "last in a series", it always precedes the noun, and it is neither deictic nor anaphoric. In that case, it corresponds to "*the *last" in English: you can always say "décembre est le dernier mois de l'année", no mater when you say it.

"Le dernier cours de français" is an interesting case. Here "dernier" means "last in a series" and can refer to something in the past or the present or the future (cf. 3 above): "Le dernier cours de français a eu lieu /aura lieu / a toujours lieu en juin." It can also be understood as being deictic with the sense of "last in a series _so far, as I speak_": "Au dernier cours de français, on nous a appris la différence entre les déictiques et les anaphoriques, mais je n'ai pas tout compris. Je vais demander au prof de nous réexpliquer ça cette semaine." That would explain why we say "la dernière fois" both to say "last time" and "the last time." Words such as "fois" and "cours" do not specifically refer to periods of time the  way that "semaine" or "mois" do, so they do not strictly belong to category (1) above.

I believe it is this kind of unconscious reasoning that takes place inside our native speakers' heads and makes us choose one form or another.


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## mllepink

Hello there!

As a fellow French-learning student, this has always evaded me, too.  Literally the only way I can seem to remember the proper word order is to remember a popular song by the equally popular French band Kyo (perhaps you know of them!) -- "Une Dernière Danse".  It implies "one final dance", and this is how I can remember the difference between the two positions.  Good luck!


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## WatsJusto

Il me semble que j'ai entendu plusieurs options pour le placement des mots: prochain/dernier ou avant ou après le nom qui est modifié par ces adjectifs. Pour les exemples ci-dessous, est-ce qu'il y a l'option de choisir n'importe quelle forme ou est-ce qu'il y en a une qui est plus correcte?? Est-ce qu'il y a une règles gramaticale? Merci bien d'avance!

la semaine prochaine / la prochaine semaine
le siècle dernier / le dernier siècle
la prochaine classe / la classe prochaine
dans l'activité prochaine/ suivante....dans la prochaine/suivante activité
mon prochain voyage / mon voyage prochain


s'il vous plaît, corrigez mes erreurs


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## NemoNobody

*Most usually :

la semaine prochaine* / la prochaine semaine
*le siècle dernier* / le dernier siècle
*la prochaine classe* / la classe prochaine
dans l'activité prochaine/ suivante....dans la prochaine/suivante activité : well, "la prochaine activité" but "l'activité suivante"...
*mon prochain voyage* / mon voyage prochain

Actually, "prochain" is a bit a special case since its meaning slightly differs depending on its place before or after the name :
  - before : meaning is close to "next" ;
  - after   : meaning is close to "coming soon".


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## Gutenberg

Here are some of the rules:
http://www.aidenet.eu/grammaire09g.htm


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## WatsJusto

Est-ce que c'est plus juste de dire: Dans la classe dernière / ou / Dans la dernière classe? Merci!


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## NemoNobody

Dans le cas d'espèce, la page http://www.aidenet.eu/grammaire09g.htm indiquée par Gutenberg donne un élément de réponse :


> §500 / d - Place de l'adjectif
> A - On place avant le nom, en règle générale :
> [...]​* L'adjectif ordinal :​- Le quinzième siècle et non le siècle quinzième.​


​​Un adjectif de place/rang comme dernier est assimilable à un adjectif ordinal, et il se place donc de préférence *avant* le nom, ce qui fait que l'on dit plutôt : "la dernière classe".

Mais on dit par contre : "la semaine dernière", "le mois dernier", "l'année dernière" : ce qui a même donné le titre d'un film "L'année dernière à Marienbad".

Hope this helps.


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## c.ronaldo93

Are they different in their meanings? Thanks  a lot!


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## Oddmania

Hi,

Yes, they are!

..._Le mois dernier_ ⇔ last month (i.e. the previous month) →.ex: _Je suis allé en Espagne* le mois dernier*_ (= en mars).
_...Le dernier mois_ ⇔ the last month (i.e. the ultimate month) →.ex: _Décembre est *le dernier mois *de l'année_.


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## KennyHun

Lacuzon, pour confirmation, dites-vous que "au dernier cours" et "au cours dernier" sont tous deux possibles pour renvoyer au cours précédent ou plutôt que "au dernier cours" peut avoir l'un et l'autre sens ? Merci !


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## lamy08

Je comprends que Karlheinzlee ait des difficultés avec "dernier". Comme dit Lacuzon, le contexte est un peu différent.
Ceci est le dernier cours que je donne sur le sujet.
Ceci est le cours dernier que je donne sur le sujet.

J'en ai parlé au cours dernier. 
J'en ai parlé au dernier cours. (plus fréquent, me semble-t-il)

Dans un autre contexte que la classe, "dernier" peut avoir un sens sous-entendu:
J'ai vu Paul l'automne dernier.
Ce fut son dernier automne. (il est mort après l'automne)


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## bitossi

Est-ce que les Francais disent 'les vacances dernieres' quelquefois ou seulement 'les dernieres vacances'?


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## atcheque

Bienvenue Bitossi,
_
les *dernières *vacances _est bien la tournure courante.


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## ain'ttranslationfun?

For some reason this sentence to translate into English came to my mind (it's from so long ago I've forgotten the book):

"La semaine dernière était la dernière semaine pour payer ses impôts." ->"Last week was the last week for paying your taxes.", which I think is a good example.


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