# that space cadet glow



## macforever

Nella canzone dei Pink Floyd_ In the flesh_ c'è una frase che non mi è chiara.
Per fornire un minimo di contesto inserisco alcune frasi che la precedono:

so ya
thought ya
might like to go to the show
to feel the warm thrill of confusion
*that space cadet glow*

Navigando su Internet ho trovato:
1) che infiamma lo stolto
2) che fa arrossire il cadetto spaziale
3) quella sognante euforia

Un mio collega oggi mi ha suggerito:
che ti fa immergere nel bagliore.

Spero di ricevere i vostri pareri visto che il senso esatto della frase continua a sfuggirmi.


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## rrose17

A space cadet is someone who is easily confused, someone who doesn't exactly have both feet on the ground. It's a very common, very soft, insult. People say "He's a real space cadet" or "I'm such a space cadet today." In the lyrics here, it's rather ironic way to say "let's go get lost at the show".


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## cercolumi

Avevo trovato anche questo sul significato di "space cadet".
Sarebbe un po' come dire "fuori come un satellite"


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## macforever

cercolumi said:


> Avevo trovato anche questo sul significato di "space cadet".
> Sarebbe un po' come dire "fuori come un satellite"


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## macforever

Grazie rrose17 e cercolumi.

Il mio tentativo:

allora voi
pensavate 
che vi sarebbe piaciuto assistere allo spettacolo
per sentire il caldo fremito della confusione
*quel bagliore fuori dal mondo*

Aggiungo che la mia traduzione non mi piace.
Spero che su WR ci siano persone con una vena poetica superiore alla mia


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## rrose17

Hmmm, not sure. It could be but I don't see it as an "out of this world" glow, more like it's a glow that comes with being completely stoned or high. Whether on the music or otherwise in unclear but you're left in a lovely state of stupidity.


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## macforever

rrose17 said:


> Hmmm, not sure. It could be but I don't see it as an "out of this world" glow, more like it's a glow that comes with being completely stoned or high. Whether on the music or otherwise in unclear but you're left in a lovely state of stupidity.


_Quel bagliore che lascia storditi_ (?)


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## valentina83

Ciao.
Cambiando un poco: "*stordimento abbagliante*"?


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## macforever

valentina83 said:


> Ciao.
> Cambiando un poco: "*stordimento abbagliante*"?



Ciao Valentina83. Grazie per la tua proposta.
_Quello stordimento abbagliante_ mi sembra una buona possibilità.
A forza di  proporre soluzioni valide, speriamo di non allontanarci dal senso originale del testo.


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## cercolumi

Cambia poco ma da ciò che ho capito dovrebbe essere il bagliore ciò che provoca lo stordimento.
"Bagliore stordente/alienante/estraniante/intorpidente"


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## macforever

cercolumi said:


> Cambia poco ma da ciò che ho capito dovrebbe essere il bagliore ciò che provoca lo stordimento.
> "Bagliore stordente/alienante/estraniante"


_Quel bagliore stordente_ potrebbe essere OK pensando alla montagna di luce prodotta in certi concerti rock e riversata sul pubblico già in delirio per la musica.


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## cercolumi

Io puntavo su _alienante_ per mantenere il parallelismo con _space_


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## macforever

Bello! Sottile ed efficace


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## valentina83

cercolumi said:


> Cambia poco ma da ciò che ho capito dovrebbe essere il bagliore ciò che provoca lo stordimento.
> "Bagliore stordente/alienante/estraniante/intorpidente"



Grazie macforever. Cercolumi, grazie, in effetti tu hai ragione e la mia traduzione era da un'altra prospettiva. Perche' per come la vedo io il significato e':  *quel (tipico) bagliore* *(da cui sono solitamente caratterizzati**) **gli storditi/lo stato di stordimento... *quindi sarebbe *"quel bagliore da (*_nel senso di "caratteristico di"_*) stordito" *; che pero' mi sembra bruttissimo... quindi ragionando al contrario l'essere stordito (stordimento) e' cio' che ti mette nella condizione di esserti/sentirti splendente! Ma sono sicura che sia molto difficile riuscire a catturare l' intenzione dell'autore: certe cose si "sentono" ma sono difficili da esprimere a parole!


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## macforever

valentina83 said:


> Grazie macforever. Cercolumi, grazie, in effetti tu hai ragione e la mia traduzione era da un'altra prospettiva. Perche' per come la vedo io il significato e':  *quel (tipico) bagliore* *(da cui sono solitamente caratterizzati**) **gli storditi/lo stato di stordimento... *quindi sarebbe *"quel bagliore da (*_nel senso di "caratteristico di"_*) stordito" *; che pero' mi sembra bruttissimo... quindi ragionando al contrario l'essere stordito (stordimento) e' cio' che ti mette nella condizione di esserti/sentirti splendente! Ma sono sicura che sia molto difficile riuscire a catturare l' intenzione dell'autore: certe cose si "sentono" ma sono difficili da esprimere a parole!



I agree with you, Valentina83. Ma dato che non sono in contatto con i membri della band, mi sforzo di dare un'interpretazione corretta a parole che, impostate così, possono assumere sfumature impalpabili per un comune mortale come me.


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## cercolumi

Capisco cosa vuoi dire valentina e, rileggendo ciò che ha scritto rrose, credo che tu abbia ragione è "quel bagliore da..."
Non è affatto facile e forse dovremmo provare ad eliminare il "bagliore". Forse qualcosa con "aura"? "alone"?


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## macforever

cercolumi said:


> Capisco cosa vuoi dire valentina e, rileggendo ciò che ha scritto rrose, credo che tu abbia ragione è "quel bagliore da..."
> Non è affatto facile e forse dovremmo provare ad eliminare il "bagliore". Forse qualcosa con "aura"? "alone"?



OK. Vedo che stiamo puntando la prua della nave in una direzione diversa. Speriamo di arrivare in porto sani e salvi


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## Pat (√2)

rrose17 said:


> it's a glow that comes with being completely stoned or high. Whether on the music or otherwise in unclear but you're left in a lovely state of stupidity.



Date le indicazioni di rrose, mi pare che con _glow_ non s'intenda "bagliore", ma una sensazione (piacevole, "calda"...).


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## Peninsular

_quella calda ebbrezza...?_


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## cercolumi

Dicono che la notte porti consiglio, a me ha portato: "quell'irradiante/riverberante/sfolgorante/scintillante/sfavillante stordimento".
non ne sono particolarmente entusiasta ma questo è quanto.


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## macforever

Beh, mica male, Cercolumi.
Grazie


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## frankit

rrose17 said:


> Hmmm, not sure. It could be but I don't see it as an "out of this world" glow, more like it's a glow that comes with being completely stoned or high. Whether on the music or otherwise in unclear but you're left in a lovely state of stupidity.



I personally think that rrose 17 gives the best explanation


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## ohbice

_"...quell'euforia estraniante"
_mio tentativo, ciao.

ps: forse mi piace di più _"...quel'euforia straniante".
_Ciao


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## MarkArmy

Hi, try with:

*...quell'alienante eccitamento 
*
I guess it would be the best fitting translation...I can't think of other possible ways to translate *space cadet.
*
Nel caso specifico delle canzoni di "The Wall":"In the Flesh?" e "In the Flesh", lo *Space Cadet *che Roger Waters intende è colui che grida insieme alla folla/massa ed è talmente preso dall'euforia di essere appunto lì dal vivo in carne ed ossa (e qui appunto il titolo della canzone "In the Flesh") al concerto/comizio del suo beniamino che non si rende conto di cosa succede poiché è altrove (appunto nello *Space*) con la testa, talvolta in balia di alcol o droghe che contribuiscono a questo eccitamento, sopratutto nel caso dei giovani fans ai concerti.

Ad ogni modo ti consiglio di seguire attentamente tutto il racconto di The Wall, poiché il significato e la spiegazione in toto viene meglio fuori alla fine di tutto, e da li anche la scelta della mia traduzione.
Io sto scrivendo una tesi sull'analisi linguistica di The Wall e vari altri aspetti che contraddistinguono quest' opera, spero di esserti stato di aiuto. ciao ;-)


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## sorry66

rrose17 said:


> A space cadet is someone who is easily confused, someone who doesn't exactly have both feet on the ground. It's a very common, very soft, insult. People say "He's a real space cadet" or "I'm such a space cadet today." .



Hi RRose17,
How old is this usage, though? I first heard 'space cadet' used in this way in the mid-to-late nineties. The Pink Floyd album is much older.
'Spaced out', on the other hand, has been around for much longer, I believe.


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## TimLA

The use of "space cadet" as someone confused, an oddball, is from the 1960's - so well within the Pink Floyd epoch (1979).

Given the word "confusion" in the prior line I would guess it means something like "that warm feeling of being confused"


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## ohbice

Quell'aura sbalordita, mi verrebbe da dire


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## sorry66

'The _Tom Corbett, Space Cadet_ (1948) television series and radio show made "space cadet" a household phrase.......The popular meanings of "space cadet" later shifted in popular culture away from astronaut-in-training to indicate, by the 1960s, an "eccentric person disconnected with reality" (often implying an intimacy with hallucinogenic drugs) although by the 2010s, drug abuse was rarely implied by this phrase...; "space cadet" was more simply associated with "spacing out," wandering from present concerns, especially of others present, and being a "space case" with its alliterative rhyme. Both the "trainee astronaut" and "person regarded as being out of touch with reality" entered the Oxford Dictionary for English language....'

This is from Wiki, which suggests that the purely 'spacing out' meaning of 'space cadet' came later. 

Pink Floyd were English and from London (like me) and were writing these songs in the late seventies so I'm not sure that's the meaning they would have had in mind. I think the idea is more about hallucinogenics.


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## King Crimson

sorry66 said:


> 'The _Tom Corbett, Space Cadet_ (1948) television series and radio show made "space cadet" a household phrase.......The popular meanings of "space cadet" later shifted in popular culture away from astronaut-in-training to indicate, by the 1960s, an "eccentric person disconnected with reality" (often implying an intimacy with hallucinogenic drugs) although by the 2010s, drug abuse was rarely implied by this phrase...; "space cadet" was more simply associated with "spacing out," wandering from present concerns, especially of others present, and being a "space case" with its alliterative rhyme. Both the "trainee astronaut" and "person regarded as being out of touch with reality" entered the Oxford Dictionary for English language....'
> 
> This is from Wiki, which suggests that the purely 'spacing out' meaning of 'space cadet' came later.
> 
> Pink Floyd were English and from London (like me) and were writing these songs in the late seventies so I'm not sure that's the meaning they would have had in mind. I think the idea is more about hallucinogenics.


 
Interesting explanation sorry66 and, if you are right about the reference to drugs, "aura sbalordita" suggested by ohbice would be spot-on (I guess that un'aura _stupefatta_ would be overdoing it)


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## MR1492

KC,

Not being a native, I'm a little confused.  I've looked at the WR Dictionary and the difference between _sbalordita _and _stupefatta _is .... ???  To you, is one worse or more intense for some reason?  Looking at the definitions, it's hard for me to see why one is more appropriate than the other.  

Help.

Phil


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## King Crimson

Hi Phil,
it was just a (stupid) play on words, in fact they are synonyms but "stupefatta" makes reference to stupefacente, which in Italian also means hallucinogen.


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## ohbice

Oh, not so stupid! Io ho sorriso!
Il verbo _stupefare_ ha dato luogo, grazie al suo participio passato, a questa denominazione per le droghe. Anche se forse con questo significato è più frequente il plurale, _stupefacenti _(o magari si usa il singolare in associazione con sostanza: sostanza stupefacente).
Ciao.
p


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## sorry66

So are ohbice and markarmy on the right lines with _'quell'euforia estraniante' _and _quell'alienante eccitamento_ ?
And wouldn't 'aura stupefacante' be better if it hints at drugs?


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## King Crimson

sorry66 said:


> So are ohbice and markarmy on the right lines with _'quell'euforia estraniante' _and _quell'alienante eccitamento_ ?
> And wouldn't 'aura stupefacante' be better if it hints at drugs?


 
It would be "aura stupefatta", not "stupefacente" (unless we are talking of some hallucinatory environment). However, assuming that the hint at drugs is there, I'd rather pick _euforia estraniante_ or _alienante eccitamento_ over _aura stupefatta_.
It's just a matter of personal preferences, but to me the reference to drugs is too overt in _aura stupefatta, _plus _euforia estraniante_ and _alienante eccitamento _have a decidedly Pink Floyd-esque ring to them (but don't ask me why).


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## sorry66

Ok King C, I'll take your word for it!


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## ohbice

King Crimson said:


> ... _euforia estraniante_ and _alienante eccitamento _have a decidedly Pink Floyd-esque ring to them (but don't ask me why).


Even if they lack an ironic colour. I agree with rrose when he says (in a previous post): "In the lyrics here, it's rather ironic way..."


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## MarkArmy

Just consider the context in which Roger Waters writes his lyrics, they have much to do with dystopian literatures (George Orwell above all) and mind controlling.
In fact in a very soft, poetical, and ironical way Waters jeers at the crowd in the audience, in order to wake it up from their state of mind confusion.
He doesn't directly say to them: "YOU STUPID BRAINLESS SHEEPS, JUST COME TO THE SHOW TO GET HIGH AS F*CK WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING!!!"

He says: You thought you would have enjoyed coming to the show getting lost...but (as the lyrics carry on) you won't, because I'm going to show you people something which may profoundly shock you in a way!!!

That's the new kind of NewSpeak that Roger Waters introduces into "The Wall".
As Orwell (cutting and inventing new shorter words into English vocabulary) invented NewSpeak in his "1984" in order to controll masses, avoid any kind of rebellion and thought among people and to make any conversation as short as possible; Waters adopted the opposite register: The poetic one.
Lingustically speaking the poetic function refers to the structure of the message itself. Due to the complexity of the words used, it forces the listener/reader to get back on the message in order to fully understand it.
Thanks to that, we are all here now discussing on it...in search of the deepest truth


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## ohbice

Mark, molto interessante ma non vieni al sodo: qual'è il tuo tentativo di traduzione? Non per sottostimare il tuo contributo, ma che il significato di un'opera d'arte qualsiasi (poetica, in questo caso) sia diverso a seconda di chi ne fruisce è un topos, ormai.
p


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## MR1492

King Crimson said:


> Hi Phil,
> it was just a (stupid) play on words, in fact they are synonyms but "stupefatta" makes reference to stupefacente, which in Italian also means hallucinogen.



KC,

As ohbice said it wasn't stupid.  After you explained it, I got a chuckle out of it.  I would only say that "space cadet" does have two meanings.  One is the reference to hallucinogenics but the other is non-drug related.  It's used to describe those people who, despite their best intentions, seem to have been behind the door when God handed out awareness of one's surroundings!

Phil


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## MarkArmy

Hi Ohbice,
If you take a look up at the discussion wall, you'll find out I already gave my attempt of translating "*that space cadet glow" *into the Italian "*quell' alienante eccitamento*" with also an explication of my choice in Italian (if requested I am going to rewrite it in English)
What I was trying to offer, was a key lecture of the Opera.
Anyway, "The Wall" concept album is all about self-alienation of one into its own wall, due to many personal reasons.


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## alicip

MR1492 said:


> KC,
> 
> As ohbice said it wasn't stupid.  After you explained it, I got a chuckle out of it.  I would only say that "space cadet" does have two meanings.  One is the reference to hallucinogenics but the other is non-drug related.  It's used to describe those people who, despite their best intentions, seem to have been behind the door when God handed out awareness of one's surroundings!
> 
> Phil


For the second meaning we have "*picchiatello*" (i.e. Persona un po tocca di cervello, tra lo svagato e lo stravagante.) in Italian.


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## MR1492

alicip said:


> For the second meaning we have "*picchiatello*" (i.e. Persona un po tocca di cervello, tra lo svagato e lo stravagante.) in Italian.



Eccolo!  Grazie, alicip.

Phil


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## ohbice

MarkArmy said:


> Hi Ohbice,
> If you take a look up at the discussion wall, you'll find out I already gave my attempt of translating "*that space cadet glow" *into the Italian "*quell' alienante eccitamento*" with also an explication of my choice in Italian (if requested I am going to rewrite it in English)
> What I was trying to offer, was a key lecture of the Opera.
> Anyway, "The Wall" concept album is all about self-alienation of one into its own wall, due to many personal reasons.


Hai ragione, scusami, tu sei quello che "non riesco a pensare a nessuna traduzione migliore dalla mia".
Come avrò mai fatto a dimenticarmene?


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## sorry66

To Phil,
The second meaning  of 'picchiatello' has already been discussed in this thread and doesn't seem to be the right meaning for the song.


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## alicip

Consider, for a moment, the lyric “*Space cadet glow…*” Here you have the beaming faces of the stoned or of the “_sheeple” _in the audience, whose own lack of intelligence makes them the prime followers of any cult of personality. These are people who need to be told what to do, how to think, how to act — whose very allegiance gives them a sense of meaning and purpose in lives that would otherwise be full of fear and uncertainty. They are empty vessels, often lied to and taken advantage of for the purpose of fulfilling someone else’s agenda.

The concert of this first "In the Flesh?" takes place after Pink's wall has come down. Cynical though it is, Pink's sermon to his crowd is, in many ways, instructional, spoken as if by someone who's lived through the worst of it and is now out on the other side, offering his honest-albeit-jaded opinion about the cold, hard reality of walls and life in general. His audience thought they were coming to the concert to feel that *"space cadet glow" *(a phrase evocative of being stoned, something many a Floyd fan knows a few things about), but instead are treated to their hardened idol's lessons about reality.


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## MarkArmy

ohbice said:


> Hai ragione, scusami, tu sei quello che "non riesco a pensare a nessuna traduzione migliore dalla mia".
> Come avrò mai fatto a dimenticarmene?



In verità hai alterato il senso della mia frase.

Ho provato nel mio piccolo a dare un senso a "that space cadet glow" cercando di immergermi nel contesto e traducendola in italiano...ovviamente la trasposizione in italiano il più delle volte non segue alla lettera ogni singolo vocabolo, si prova a darne un senso.


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## sorry66

Great find, alcip! I think that explains it all: People are like sheep who just want to get stoned because they can't face reality.
So my money's still on _euforia estraniante_ and _alienante eccitamento _but the _stordimento _suggestions could work too, I reckon.


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## MarkArmy

alicip said:


> Consider, for a moment, the lyric “*Space cadet glow…*” Here you have the beaming faces of the stoned or of the “_sheeple” _in the audience, whose own lack of intelligence makes them the prime followers of any cult of personality. These are people who need to be told what to do, how to think, how to act — whose very allegiance gives them a sense of meaning and purpose in lives that would otherwise be full of fear and uncertainty. They are empty vessels, often lied to and taken advantage of for the purpose of fulfilling someone else’s agenda.
> 
> The concert of this first "In the Flesh?" takes place after Pink's wall has come down. Cynical though it is, Pink's sermon to his crowd is, in many ways, instructional, spoken as if by someone who's lived through the worst of it and is now out on the other side, offering his honest-albeit-jaded opinion about the cold, hard reality of walls and life in general. His audience thought they were coming to the concert to feel that *"space cadet glow" *(a phrase evocative of being stoned, something many a Floyd fan knows a few things about), but instead are treated to their hardened idol's lessons about reality.



That's exactly the point...It's a prelude of Pink (in "In the Flesh") to the story-telling after his battle against himself.



MarkArmy said:


> That's exactly the point...It's a prelude of Pink (in "In the Flesh") to the story-telling after his battle against himself.



Sorry, I ment in "In the Flesh?"

Meant*...Bit stressed up today, my apologies


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## london calling

sorry66 said:


> Pink Floyd were English and from London (like me) and were writing these songs in the late seventies so I'm not sure that's the meaning they would have had in mind. I think the idea is more about hallucinogenics.


I'm a Londoner too. 

This particular song is from 'The Wall', not my favourite album: I was deeply shocked as a Pink Floyd fan when it came out, as it sounded (and still sounds) like pop music to me. I agree it has to do with hallucinogenics: does anyone remember the film, about a character called Pink who hallucinates (having taken drugs) about being a fascist dictator?


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## chipulukusu

Dopo aver letto tutti i commenti, e pensando al contesto, io tradurrei 

_E così avete pensato
che sarebbe stato forte
andare al concerto
per sentire il caldo abbraccio della confusione
quell'aria di sballo incosciente.
_
Mi rendo conto che è un'interpretazione molto banale, ma mi sembra la più probabile, pensando alle motivazioni per cui da ragazzi si va ad un concerto rock. Lo sballo può essere un misto di incoscienza e innocenza, fatto di alcool, canne, puro volume della musica e _moshing. _Ci potrebbe stare _space cadet glow_, quindi. 

Ritengo poco probabile che _space cadet_ qui faccia riferimento all'aspetto di ingenuità, distacco dalla realtà e facile manipolabilità.


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## sorry66

I like it but see what your fellow Italians think.


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## ohbice

chipulukusu said:


> _per sentire il caldo abbraccio della confusione
> quell'aria di sballo incosciente._


Ciao chipu. Ti quoto sulla banalità ma nel senso buono: sono abbastanza stufo di letture iperesoteriche dei testi dei Pink Floyd. C'è quella parte di ironia (o forse sarcasmo) che ancora manca nel tuo tentativo ma in fondo non mi dispiace.


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