# 's-Gravenhage



## cyanista

Many towns in the Netherlands have an apostrophe and a small s in front of their name, like 's-Gravenhage (the Hague). So, I was wondering: is it an abbreviated article or something? Why do some towns/cities have articles and some don't, then? 

Dank u vooraf.


----------



## Chazzwozzer

Hi cyanista,

It was exactly what I wondered when I read that The Hague is officially called 's-Gravenhage. After asking some Dutch friends and personal research, here's what I can tell you:

*'s *refers to *"des"*, which is the archaic form of *"of the."

*So,* des Gravenhage* means *The Count's Hedge *which is now called as *Den Haag* in Dutch and *The Hague*(direct translation) in English.

Same goes for *'s Hertogenbosch* as well. It would mean *"The Duke's Forest"*, of course. Now, the Dutch call it *Den Bosch* and it's *Duke Town* in English.

I don't know why some have and some don't. As a matter of fact, I even don't have an idea how come* A'dam *refers to* Amsterdam*. What about it, guys?

Speaking of *'s-Gravenhage*, isn't *Lahey* the same? I used this word many times in The Hague and no one around there had any idea what I was talking about.

Well, to be honest, I didn't get what they meant when I first heard The Hague because I had always thought it would have been pronounced like "Haag" so I went all like "What? The Hack?"

So I mean, it's maybe because of my pronunciation, Lahey is what we call that in Turkish and it might have sounded different to them when they heard.

Cheers,
Ekin


----------



## mansio

Turkish Lahey comes from French La Haye (the Hague in old French spelling).

A'dam is the abbreviation of Amsterdam as L.A. is the abbreviation of Los Angeles.


----------



## cyanista

Thank you for your interesting and detailed reply, Ekin.


----------



## Whodunit

Chazzwozzer said:


> Hi cyanista,
> 
> It was exactly what I wondered when I read that The Hague is officially called 's-Gravenhage. After asking some Dutch friends and personal research, here's what I can tell you:
> 
> *'s *refers to *"des"*, which is the archaic form of *"of the."*


 
In German, it is colloquial to abbreviate es (even in written German) or das (only spoken) as 's. Could it be colloquial in Dutch as well. Or would they rather use 't (to abbreviate het)? 



> I don't know why some have and some don't. As a matter of fact, I even don't have an idea how come* A'dam *refers to* Amsterdam*. What about it, guys?


 
This is common for many long towns in German, too. I like the idea very much, provided you have to know how a town is abbreviated:

Bad Hönningen > Bad H'en

No one who has never been there would recognize Bad H'en as "Bad Hönningen." I wouldn't have recognized A'dam as Amsterdam, but from now on, I will know. 



> Speaking of *'s-Gravenhage*, isn't *Lahey* the same? I used this word many times in The Hague and no one around there had any idea what I was talking about.


 
The word "Lahey" is common in many languages: French, Arabic, Farsi, Turkish, ... but not in Dutch. 



> Well, to be honest, I didn't get what they meant when I first heard The Hague because I had always thought it would have been pronounced like "Haag" so I went all like "What? The Hack?"


 
Den Haag sounds like [dən ha:x].

Hope it helps.


----------



## Chazzwozzer

mansio said:


> A'dam is the abbreviation of Amsterdam as L.A. is the abbreviation of Los Angeles.



So, it's just an abbreviation, is it? Interesting, how common is this?



Whodunit said:


> In German, it is colloquial to abbreviate es (even in written German) or das (only spoken) as 's. Could it be colloquial in Dutch as well. Or would they rather use 't (to abbreviate het)?



It shouldn't be a part of colloqualism because it's used in the sense of official names. Well, it's my guess. 




Whodunit said:


> This is common for many long towns in German, too. I like the idea very much, provided you have to know how a town is abbreviated:
> 
> Bad Hönningen > Bad H'en
> 
> No one who has never been there would recognize Bad H'en as "Bad Hönningen." I wouldn't have recognized A'dam as Amsterdam, but from now on, I will know.



I just can't recall if they abbreviate street names in the Netherlands as well, but the street at which I stayed wasn't called in any abbreviated form and it had a too long name to be memorized and pronounced correctly by me.



mansio said:


> Turkish Lahey comes from French La Haye (the Hague in old French spelling).





Whodunit said:


> The word "Lahey" is common in many languages: French, Arabic, Farsi, Turkish, ... but not in Dutch.


Quite interesting. I just did a search and:
*Catalan: *La Haia
*Italian:* L'Aia

Lahey is, as I've seen, often used in Turkish media and most people prefer calling the city as Den Haag with the standard Turkish pronunciation. 



Whodunit said:


> Den Haag sounds like [dən ha:x].
> 
> Hope it helps.


I actually mixed up the pronunciation of the Hague with Den Haag. (Hague-Haag) Which wasn't correct either. Pathetic, eh? I usually sounded like "then hug" until my last week there, which I learned it was not actually how they pronounce it in Dutch. 

Don't even ask me about Scheveningen, do you know how many times I had to try to pronounce it like a native?  It has a very interesting story dates back to WWII, by the way.


----------



## optimistique

Chazzwozzer said:


> I just can't recall if they abbreviate street names in the Netherlands as well, but the street at which I stayed wasn't called in any abbreviated form and it had a too long name to be memorized and pronounced correctly by me.



Well, we sometimes use _str._ for _straat_. ;-)


----------



## moldo

Dear all,

I am very pleased with your interest in the Dutch language.

This little _*'s*_ has raised so much additional questions, which I am happy to address.

1. 
*'s* in front of a word is an abbreviation of *des*, which is old Dutch for *van de* or *in de* (from the or in the).
We have in Dutch many words starting with des, for example:
destijds (in that time)
desnoods (if need)
desgewenst (if wished)
Beside 's Gravenhage and 's Hertogenbosch as names of cities, we see also the 's adjuncted to the following words:
's ochtends (in the morning)
's middags (in the afternoon)
's avonds (in the evening)
It is only used for these specific words, so it is not a general rule that you may apply to any noun. For example:
's winters (in the winter)  
but the oher seasons are not right in this combination:
's lentes  in de lente  (in the spring, during spring time)
's herfsts  in de herfst  (during autumn)
I guess that these kind of special rules and exceptions makes Dutch very hard to learn.

Another beautifull word (not used anymore):
's anderendaags (the other day) 

 2. A'dam is just short for Amsterdam. R'dam for Rotterdam. Only used in writing.

3. As far as I know almost all places in the Netherlands have only one unique name in Dutch.
Den Haag for 's Gravenhage and Den Bosch for 's Hertogenbosch are exceptions. The are both used in writing and speaking.
Another exception is Gorkum for Gorinchem.
I do not recall instantly any more examples than these three places.

4. Streetnames can be long. In most cases this because the streets are called after somebody in history with first and last name fully written.
For example: Nicolaas Beetslaan or Olde van Barneveld plein.
These may be abbreviated: Nic. Beetsln or O.v.Barneveld pln.

5. In German *'s* for *das*.
In Dutch we have indeed *'t* for *het*. 
Gaat het goed? Gaat 't goed?

6. For foreigners it is almost impossible to pronounce the Dutch "g", which is a scraping sound from the throat. I belief in Arabic the same sounds exists, but not in many other languages.
's Gravenhage or Den Haag is very difficult to pronounce with this "g".
La Haye is easy for a foreigner, but unfortunately practically no Dutchman will understand this. 

Regards, Moldo


----------



## Chazzwozzer

It's been very helpful, Moldo. Thank you.  I need to practise more on Dutch pronunciation, really.


----------



## Whodunit

moldo said:


> 's winters (in the winter)


 
Would "in de winter" still be correct or is "'s winters" the only acceptable possibility?


----------



## optimistique

Whodunit said:


> Would "in de winter" still be correct or is "'s winters" the only acceptable possibility?


Both are possible. 

The difference lies in the fact that *'s winters* means '_every time when it's winter_', while *in de winter* just means _in the winter_, which refers to the previous or coming winter:

1. _'s Winters ga ik skiën._ -  In the winter I always go skying.
2. _In de winter ga ik skiën._ - This coming winter I'm going skying.

_In de winter_ can also be used in the meaning of sentence 1., but then you should add 'altijd', or have a very clear context. Also used are *van de winter* and *deze winter *for the meaning of sentence 2.


----------



## moldo

cyanista said:


> *Many towns* in the Netherlands have an apostrophe and a small s in front of their name, like 's-Gravenhage (the Hague).


 
Dear Cyanista, 

In my opinion not so many places start with 's. 

A search of the Dutch national phonenumber book gave 13 results for places in the Netherlands beginning with *'s*:

's-Gravendeel    
's-Graveland    
's-Gravenmoer    
 's-Gravenpolder    
 's-Gravenhage    (aka Den Haag)
 's-Gravenzande    
 's-Heer Arendskerke    
 's-Heer Abtskerke    
 's-Heer Hendrikskinderen    
 's-Heerenberg    
 's-Heerenhoek    
 's-Heerenbroek    
 's-Hertogenbosch (aka Den Bosch)

_'s Graven = from the count_
_'s Heeren = from the lord_
_'s Hertogen = from the duke_

To my knowledge only 's-Gravenhage and 's-Hertogenbosch have alternative short names. These are big towns (according to Dutch standards  ). The other places are villages, some very small. I could not locate these places without a map.

Regards, Moldo


----------



## cyanista

Thank you for your great contribution, Moldo!

You're right, 13 are not many.  That means I was lucky to see about half of those on the road signs, daher der Eindruck.


----------



## Patriccke

14 with the Dutch name of Braine-le-Comte (Belgium):  _'s-Gravenbrakel 
_


----------



## alisonp

Do English speakers really call Den Bosch "Duke Town"?  I've never heard it.  I think we just call it by the full name, possibly dropping the 's' from the front?


----------



## sound shift

I once lived near Den Bosch, and never heard an English speaker call it 'Duke Town'. English speakers tend to pronounce it as 'Den Bosh', which is incorrect, as the Dutch pronounce it as 'Den Bos'.

I've seen 'Herzogenbusch' on some German maps, but they were pretty old if I remember rightly.


----------



## moldo

A little bonus:

28 Dutch places starting with *'t *(abbreviation of *het*):

't Bergje
't Buurtje
't Eind
't Goy
't Haagje
't Haantje
't Harde
't Heem
't Hoekske
't Hof
't Horntje
't Kabel
't Klooster
't Kruis
't Laar
't Loo
't Loo Oldebroek
't Rijpje
't Rooth
't Schot
't Veld
't Ven
't Waar
't Woud
't Woudt
't Zand
't Zandstervoorwerk
't Zandt


----------



## Patriccke

sound shift said:


> I've seen 'Herzogenbusch' on some German maps, but they were pretty old if I remember rightly.


There is also the French translation _Bois-le-Duc _(which "bolduc" - the ribbon used to tie up gift wrapping - derives from)


----------

