# EN: to insist that + mode



## Captain330

Bonsoir
J'ai plusieurs cas de figures à vous présenter concernant le choix entre BV et BV-ing ou je bloque sérieusement ne sachant que choisir ...

[...]

Le dernier ex ne concerne pas le choix ente BV-ing et BV mais si on peut m'epliquer que choisir également ici :
- The teacher insisted that all the students (be/are to be) on time

 thanks


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## jann

Bonjour Captain330, 

_S/he insisted that they be on time_ =  Il/elle a exigé qu'ils soient à l'heure.
_S/he insisted that they are on time_ = Elle a insisté qu'en fait, si, ils sont bien à l'heure.  (mais illogique au niveau de la concordance des temps)
_S/he insisted that they to be on time_ 

Pour les autres questions, il va falloir ouvrir d'autres fils... mais pas avant de chercher dans les archives, e.g., EN: to consider + V-ing 

Jann
membre et modératrice


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## sexyback

Bonjour,

C'est une question que je me pose depuis un bout de temps car je vois souvent des expressions ou des phrases en anglais qui pourraient correspondre à un subjonctif en français et du coup à la troisième personne du singulier, le verbe en anglais ne prend pas de "s". Est ce que dans les exemples suivants, c'est bien un subjonctif qui explique cela? Et y-a-t-il une règle spécifique en anglais pour le subjonctif? (Surtout dans quels cas le verbe ne prend pas de s à la troisième personne du singulier) : 
1) I insist she take my coat.
[…]

Merci d'avance.


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## Novanas

[1] is I believe American usage.  I believe BE would tend to say "I insist she *should* take my coat."

[…]

All the best, the Duck


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## geostan

In the first example, take is indeed a subjunctive form, and this example is normal North American usage.


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## Pickle Posy

Wikipedia is surprisingly helpful on this.

But generally the subjunctive is pretty rare in English and many native speakers avoid it, using the indicative instead: saying, for example, "it is important that she attends the meeting" instead of the more grammatically correct "it is important that she attend..." 

Fowler, one of the great grammarians of the 20th century, argued that use of the subjunctive made most writing seem 'pretentious', 'dull' and 'artificial' - so you're in good company if you stick wherever possible with the indicative!


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## sexyback

Okay, thanks for the replies (and thanks MC for moving my post ^^")
I guess I'll just use indicative all the time then.


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## merquiades

I would use the subjunctive.  It doesn't seem old-fashioned or pretentious at all to me.

The teacher insisted (recommended) the students be on time for class.


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## Tazzler

sexyback said:


> Okay, thanks for the replies (and thanks MC for moving my post ^^")
> I guess I'll just use indicative all the time then.



In fact you should adjust your usage to your intended audience.


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## sexyback

jann said:


> _S/he insisted that they be on time_ =  Il/elle a exigé qu'ils soient à l'heure.
> Jann
> membre et modératrice





merquiades said:


> The teacher insisted (recommended) the students be on time for class.



Actually I was more thinking about the "s" that's added to the verb in the indicative mode. In the examples I quoted above, there is no problem about the "s".

Also, I notice in those two examples, you all used the preterit for the main verb and the second subject in a plurial form. With a present and a singular subject would it have been like this?  "The teacher insists he take out the book" or "I insist he go there with me". (As a non native, I would be inclined to add a "s", I mean that doesn't sound correct to me, but as you guys said above, it's an AE usage).


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## Maître Capello

Le subjonctif présent en anglais se construit avec l'infinitif sans _to_. La plupart des verbes ne se distinguent donc de l'indicatif qu'à la 3e personne du singulier en raison du manque de ‹s›. Pour le verbe _to be_, c'est visible à toutes les personnes puisque l'on dit _be_ au lieu de _am, are, is_.

Si on récrit ces phrases à la 3e personne du singulier avec un autre verbe, il n'y aura justement pas de ‹s›. Par exemple : _She insisted that he arriv*e* on time._


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## sexyback

Maître Capello said:


> La plupart des verbes ne se distinguent donc de l'indicatif qu'à la 3e personne du singulier en raison du manque de ‹s›.


C'était exactement mon souci ^^



Maître Capello said:


> Si on récrit ces phrases à la 3e personne du singulier avec un autre verbe, il n'y aura justement pas de ‹s›. Par exemple : _She insisted that he arriv*e* on time. _


Comme certaines personnes l'ont fait remarquer en haut, il s'agit plus d'un usage de l'anglais Américain, est ce que pour BE et autre, cela "sonne correct" ou la personne aurait tendance à vouloir corriger ou reprendre une telle phrase?


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## merquiades

sexyback said:


> Actually I was more thinking about the "s" that's added to the verb in the indicative mode. In the examples I quoted above, there is no problem about the "s".
> 
> Also, I notice in those two examples, you all used the preterit for the main verb and the second subject in a plurial form. With a present and a singular subject would it have been like this?  "The teacher insists he take out the book" or "I insist he go there with me". (As a non native, I would be inclined to add a "s", I mean that doesn't sound correct to me, but as you guys said above, it's an AE usage).



Hello! I'm really not sure why I chose the preterit, but the present could have been used too.
I insist (recommend) he come to class on time.
It is important/ urgent/ necessary she be here for the exam tomorrow.


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## sexyback

Thank you all for your explanations ^^


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## Novanas

sexyback said:


> I guess I'll just use indicative all the time then.



You'd need to be careful about using the indicative.



merquiades said:


> The teacher insisted the students be on time for class.



In this sentence, e.g., "be" and "are" would be completely different.

"The teacher insisted the students *be* on time for class." --> The teacher wants the students to be on time for class.

"The teacher insisted the students *are* on time for class." --> Someone has suggested that the students are often/sometimes late, but the teacher disagrees, saying that in fact they do get to class on time.


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## merquiades

Seneca the Duck said:


> In this sentence, e.g., "be" and "are" would be completely different.
> "The teacher insisted the students *be* on time for class." --> The teacher wants the students to be on time for class.
> "The teacher insisted the students *are* on time for class." --> Someone has suggested that the students are often/sometimes late, but the teacher disagrees, saying that in fact they do get to class on time.


Totally agree about this difference between indicative and subjunctive.  I never thought about it until now.


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## sexyback

The difference has been pointed out in the post #2 by Jann, but I have to say that I didn't see it that way at first (I had to scroll up to realize Jann actually did it), but now that you have clearly explained it, I understand better ^^
By indicative, I was more thinking about this example : I insist she "takes" the coat instead of "take"


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## Novanas

sexyback said:


> The difference has been pointed out in the post #2 by Jann, but I have to say that I didn't see it that way at first (I had to scroll up to realize Jann actually did it), but now that you have clearly explained it, I understand better ^^
> By indicative, I was more thinking about this example : I insist she "takes" the coat instead of "take"



Apologies to Jann.  This thread has gone on for so long now I'd forgotten about that earlier post.

But again, in the example you're giving, I think "takes" is to be avoided.  Unless I'm mistaken, "take" would be correct AE, whereas I think BE would use "should take".  At any rate, I can't see using the indicative in this sentence.


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## merquiades

Seneca the Duck said:


> Apologies to Jann.  This thread has gone on for so long now I'd forgotten about that earlier post.
> 
> But again, in the example you're giving, I think "takes" is to be avoided.  Unless I'm mistaken, "take" would be correct AE, whereas I think BE would use "should take".  At any rate, I can't see using the indicative in this sentence.



My apologies too

With "take" a difference might work like this:

I insist she always takes her time to make sure her work is done meticulously.
I insist she take her time today.  Her work was pretty sloppy yesterday.


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## sexyback

I should say sorry to Pickle Posy beforehand for bringing him into this ^^".
What about his example then in the post #6 : 




> But generally the subjunctive is pretty rare in English and many native speakers avoid it, using the indicative instead: saying, for example, "it is important that she attends the meeting" instead of the more grammatically correct "it is important that she attend..."


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## merquiades

sexyback said:


> I should say sorry to Pickle Posy beforehand for bringing him into this ^^".
> What about his example then in the post #6 :



Someone said there is an AE/BE difference.  I wouldn't say "attends".  I guess subjunctive is live and well for me at every register. I'm not exactly a grammar addict either.  It makes it easier with French


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## sexyback

Yeah, French people use subjunctive pretty much, that's why I was kinda curious of knowing more about this particular using in English (now I know there's difference between BE and AE on this very point too ^^)


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