# Irony vs. Sarcasm



## zakare

dictionary.com tells me that the difference between the two words above is that sarcasm is just a harsh intentionally insulting/hurtful form of irony.
But common usage of the two terms tells me otherwise...

When I think of sarcasm, I think of saying something while meaning its opposite (the definition of IRONY on dic.com).

ex. [After spending hours looking through your grandma's photo album from 50 years ago] "Well that was fun."
[I consider both insultful and non-harmful types of usage as sarcasm]


When I think of irony, it's more of a situation based feeling.

ex. As with the Greek legend of Oedipus; 
[link to story: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oedipus] 
Oedipus is so intent on not letting the prophechy of him killing his father and mating his mother that he goes through great pains, leaves his kingdom, his land etc. And it turns out that the man he thought to be his father actually wasn't his father, and he does go on to kill him (without knowing) and so on...

I'd like to know if anybody shares this view of sarcasm and irony with me or if I'm the only one.

Thanks.


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## El escoces

When you say "That was fun", actually meaning it wasn't, you're being ironic (matching the dictionary definition).  Whether you're being sarcastic at the same time depends on your motive.


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## katie_here

I've never really got the hang of irony. I understand sarcasm very well, but when people are saying they are being ironic, it just sounds sarcastic to me.

Irony to me is when something turns out to be the complete opposite, or contradictory. 

I think what I'm trying to say is.. 

If I hear something that is contradictory.. as El escoces says.. that was fun, when it wasn't, like a visit to the dentist, then I think it's ironic that he should say that. 

When a person themselves say they are being ironic, then I think, No! you're just being sarcastic. You can deem someone's words as ironic, but you can't say it about your own words. If that makes any sense?


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## El escoces

Katie, you're a master of clear, concise posts.  (Actually I'm being ironic...or am I being sarcastic?  In any event, I'm joking of course.)

An example:  someone (finally) wins an Oscar after being nominated on seven previous occasions.  "It never occurred to me I might one day win one of these", she says.  She's being ironic.  She's poking fun at those who overlooked her on all of the previous occasions on which she was nominated.  But it's subtle, and good-natured - it's not sarcasm.


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## cuchuflete

I'll now post a link to a good discussion about half the topic, or about the other half, if you prefer.  Wouldn't it be ironic if those seeing this post were unable to read?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/A700958


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## katie_here

El escoces said:


> Katie, you're a master of clear, concise posts. (Actually I'm being ironic...or am I being sarcastic? In any event, I'm joking of course.)
> 
> An example: someone (finally) wins an Oscar after being nominated on seven previous occasions. "It never occurred to me I might one day win one of these", she says. She's being ironic. She's poking fun at those who overlooked her on all of the previous occasions on which she was nominated. But it's subtle, and good-natured - it's not sarcasm.


 
I don't know.  I'd say that was being humble rather than ironic.


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## cuchuflete

An actress is good enough to be nominated for an Oscar eight times.  She is obviously
more than a wee bit famous.  Katie_here describes such an actress as humble.  This characterization is akin to accusing el escocés of delicacy, understatement and grace the last time he was caught in a French Maid's costume in front of the Obelisco in Buenos Aires, shouting "Las Malvinas are British!"


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## nzfauna

In NZE those two terms have completely different meanings.  However, I have come across some AE where they interchangeable.


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## El escoces

> In NZE those two terms have completely different meanings. However, I have come across some AE where they interchangeable.


 
Come on then, nzf....don't keep us in suspense.  What do they mean in your neck of the woods?


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## nzfauna

According to the NZ Collins dictionary...

Irony = 
*1) An event that is the opposite of what is expected.*
2) Use of words to mean the opposite of what is said.

*Sarcasm = 1) Use of "ironic" remarks.* [i.e. like Irony 2)]

Although NZ dictionaries contain expanded definitions for both these words only Irony 1) and Sarcasm 1) are used. In fact, even educated NZers are shocked to find that either word can be used in the definition of the other. To us they are completely different concepts.


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## cuchuflete

I wonder which bucket this would fit in best?

The autobiography is very well written.  It gives a thorough and detailed accounting of events, with due attention to all those involved. It is among the finest recent examples of this genre we have seen, suffering only from choice of subject matter. ​


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## El escoces

> Although NZ dictionaries contain expanded definitions for both these words only Irony 1) and Sarcasm 1) are used. In fact, even educated NZers are shocked to find that either word can be used in the definition of the other. To us they are completely different concepts.


 
So, notwithstanding the dictionary definition, you would consider only events capable of being ironic, not things people say? That's interesting (seriously; I'm not being ironic). So if someone were to say to George Bush, "Thank you, Mr President, for doing so much to raise the profile of the United States overseas, particularly in Iraq", how would you classify that statement? To me, the speaker is being ironic.


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## El escoces

> The autobiography is very well written. It gives a thorough and detailed accounting of events, with due attention to all those involved. It is among the finest recent examples of this genre we have seen, suffering only from choice of subject matter


 
Isn't that what I would call a back-handed compliment?


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## cuchuflete

El escoces said:


> Isn't that what I would call a back-handed compliment?



I'd call it a back-stabbing compliment.


The *autobiography* is very well written. It gives a thorough and detailed accounting of events, with due attention to all those involved. It is among the finest recent examples of this genre we have seen, *suffering *only* from choice of subject matter*​


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## El escoces

Indeed; I read "autobiography" too quickly and evidently thought I saw "biography".

According to the definition quoted in post #1, it's not irony (and I would agree with that).  Ergo (again in terms of post "1) it can't be sarcasm either?  For me it's not sarcasm in any event.


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## cuchuflete

At first blush, I fully agree that it is neither irony nor sarcasm.  On reflection, though,
it gives the appearance of dissonance or conflict between surface and underlying meanings that is the hallmark of irony.  Let's run it through the filter of those NZE definitions that so upset the "even educated NZers"...

*An event that is the opposite of what is expected.  *Taken as a whole, and tying the final insult back to 'autobiography', it does, in the spirit of slapstick comedy, the opposite of what is expected. 
2) Use of words to mean the opposite of what is said. Does the collision of "among the finest recent examples..." and the characterization of the author as unworthy of a book create this dynamic among opposites?

It does seem sarcastic to praise a book so much, and then note, almost as if in passing, that it never should have been written.


Here's a similar example:  The President will long be remembered as among the most outstanding and noteworthy of all those in the lowest rank of leaders of the past hundred years, or even the past two hundred.


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## nzfauna

OK, responding to some to of the examples from a NZE point of view:

The autobiography is very well written. It gives a thorough and detailed accounting of events, with due attention to all those involved. It is among the finest recent examples of this genre we have seen, suffering only from choice of subject matter. 

_This is neither irony nor sarcasm.  It's just a subjective opinion.  The author is being a bitch._


"Thank you, Mr President, for doing so much to raise the profile of the United States overseas, particularly in Iraq"

_This would be a very good example of sarcasm [assuming that the person did NOT actually agree with Bush's actions]_


The President will long be remembered as among the most outstanding and noteworthy of all those in the lowest rank of leaders of the past hundred years, or even the past two hundred.

_This is neither irony nor sarcasm.  It's a subective opinion.  The author is being a bitch._

***

In NZE, sarcasm is saying the opposite to what you actually think, sometimes to comedic effect.  The phrase "sarcasm is the lowest form of wit" comes to mind.  Whereas irony is when a person is [well placed/wants/a good example] for situation A, but, frustratingly, situation B happens.  Another phrase, "poetic irony" comes to mind.  Poetic irony is when a baddy gets what he deserves, resulting from something bad he did, e.g.  Baron von Bootleg imports black-market forks into Forkistan, causing widespread decline in economy.  There is an accident in the loading bay, and the Baron is skewered by 1000 forks.  This is similar to "poetic justice", except that it necessarily contains an element of irony.

ANYWAY....

Here is a new example; from Alanis Morissette's song "_Ironic_" [however, I definitely would not call all examples she gives in this song irony].

The part in red is what I would call irony on the part of the situation, the part in brown is what I would call sarcasm on the part of the man.

"[an old man was afraid to fly, he packed his suitcase kissed his kids goodbye, he waited his whole damn life to to take a flight, and as the plane crashed down he thought, "well, isn't this nice"]"


Further examples of NZE sarcasm/irony distinction:

Sarcasm:  Someone accidentally hits you in the head, and you say "Gee, thanks".

Irony:  I really need a knife.  I have a draw full of spoons but not one knife!


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## zakare

nzfauna said:


> According to the NZ Collins dictionary...
> 
> Irony =
> *1) An event that is the opposite of what is expected.*
> 2) Use of words to mean the opposite of what is said.
> 
> *Sarcasm = 1) Use of "ironic" remarks.* [i.e. like Irony 2)]
> 
> Although NZ dictionaries contain expanded definitions for both these words only Irony 1) and Sarcasm 1) are used. In fact, even educated NZers are shocked to find that either word can be used in the definition of the other. To us they are completely different concepts.


 

YES!!!
Thank you this is exactly what I was thinking of as definitions.

And el escoces, NZE means NEW ZEALAND ENGLISH
its no obscure abbreviation..
you just havent heard of it

Anyways thanks all.


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## zakare

cuchuflete said:


> I wonder which bucket this would fit in best?
> The autobiography is very well written. It gives a thorough and detailed accounting of events, with due attention to all those involved. It is among the finest recent examples of this genre we have seen, suffering only from choice of subject matter. ​


 
I'd say that this is definitely irony.


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## zakare

nzfauna said:


> OK, responding to some to of the examples from a NZE point of view:
> 
> The autobiography is very well written. It gives a thorough and detailed accounting of events, with due attention to all those involved. It is among the finest recent examples of this genre we have seen, suffering only from choice of subject matter.
> 
> _This is neither irony nor sarcasm. It's just a subjective opinion. The author is being a bitch._
> 
> 
> "Thank you, Mr President, for doing so much to raise the profile of the United States overseas, particularly in Iraq"
> 
> _This would be a very good example of sarcasm [assuming that the person did NOT actually agree with Bush's actions]_
> 
> 
> The President will long be remembered as among the most outstanding and noteworthy of all those in the lowest rank of leaders of the past hundred years, or even the past two hundred.
> 
> _This is neither irony nor sarcasm. It's a subective opinion. The author is being a bitch._
> 
> ***
> 
> In NZE, sarcasm is saying the opposite to what you actually think, sometimes to comedic effect. The phrase "sarcasm is the lowest form of wit" comes to mind. Whereas irony is when a person is [well placed/wants/a good example] for situation A, but, frustratingly, situation B happens. Another phrase, "poetic irony" comes to mind. Poetic irony is when a baddy gets what he deserves, resulting from something bad he did, e.g. Baron von Bootleg imports black-market forks into Forkistan, causing widespread decline in economy. There is an accident in the loading bay, and the Baron is skewered by 1000 forks. This is similar to "poetic justice", except that it necessarily contains an element of irony.
> 
> ANYWAY....
> 
> Here is a new example; from Alanis Morissette's song "_Ironic_" [however, I definitely would not call all examples she gives in this song irony].
> 
> The part in red is what I would call irony on the part of the situation, the part in brown is what I would call sarcasm on the part of the man.
> 
> "[an old man was afraid to fly, he packed his suitcase kissed his kids goodbye, he waited his whole damn life to to take a flight, and as the plane crashed down he thought, "well, isn't this nice"]"
> 
> 
> Further examples of NZE sarcasm/irony distinction:
> 
> Sarcasm: Someone accidentally hits you in the head, and you say "Gee, thanks".
> 
> Irony: I really need a knife. I have a draw full of spoons but not one knife!


 
I agree fully with all of these except the two examples where you say that  "The author's just being a bitch". For the first one, asuming that it's true, it would be irony, and for the second, it would be sarcasm--no matter what-- in my opinion.


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## nzfauna

Which irony?  I really don't think it is.

Which sarcasm?  I really don't think it is because it says exactly what the author means.


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## katie_here

cuchuflete said:


> I wonder which bucket this would fit in best?
> The autobiography is very well written. It gives a thorough and detailed accounting of events, with due attention to all those involved. It is among the finest recent examples of this genre we have seen, suffering only from choice of subject matter. ​


 

If I were to read this on a book cover, I would say "ouch" .  

It is a sarcastic comment, or there is a very very good "ghost writer" about.


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## nzfauna

It is so not sarcasm.


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## katie_here

nzfauna said:


> It is so not sarcasm.


 
In my opinion it is.  The sarcasm is saying that the subject matter is not very good.  

The author has written about him/her self and the critic doesn't think that a good subject, so although he praises the writing skills he doesn't think the subject is very good.   It's sarcastic because it's an underhand insult.


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## nzfauna

It's not sarcasm because the critic says exactly what he thinks about the subject matter.

Sarcasm would be if the critic said "and I really love the subject matter" when in fact they found the subject matter boring or something.


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## Thomas Tompion

I think somebody needs to point out that there are many kinds of irony: situational irony, verbal irony (of which sarcasm is a sub-set), dramatic irony and so on.  Some of the disagreements here seem to me to stem from a failure to distinguish between the different sorts.  One person is talking about one kind and the other about another.


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## nzfauna

OK, so what type is Katie talking about?


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## katie_here

Thomas Tompion said:


> I think somebody needs to point out that there are many kinds of irony: situational irony, verbal irony (of which sarcasm is a sub-set), dramatic irony and so on. Some of the disagreements here seem to me to stem from a failure to distinguish between the different sorts. One person is talking about one kind and the other about another.


 
Well, could you please explain the difference then.   I've tried and you don't agree, but if you can see the errors in other people's arguments and explanations then obviously you are the one who understands it well. 

So for those that are still confused, can you please clarify.


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## nichec

Thomas Tompion said:


> I think somebody needs to point out that there are many kinds of irony: situational irony, verbal irony (of which sarcasm is a sub-set), dramatic irony and so on. Some of the disagreements here seem to me to stem from a failure to distinguish between the different sorts. One person is talking about one kind and the other about another.


 

I think what TT means is that there are three kinds of irony and sarcasm belongs to one of them, verbal irony.

I think I found the source of this theory here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony

I don't pretend to be an expert, and I am not sure I really understand the difference myself


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## gasman

i It is among the finest recent examples of this genre we have seen, suffering only from choice of subject matter.

I would consider this a perfect example of sarcasm in a review, and not at all obscure about the reviewer's opinions.


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## zakare

Verbal Irony is pretty much, I say this but I mean that.
Ex. "What nice weather" [It's raining]

Situational Irony is according to circumstances, this should obviously happen, well actually the exact opposite happened.
Ex. Person writes autobiography, starts talking about everything except himself.


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## El escoces

> And el escoces, NZE means NEW ZEALAND ENGLISH
> its no obscure abbreviation..
> you just havent heard of it


 
Gee thanks, zakare, I never would've known (example of sarcasm).



> Come on then, nzf....don't keep us in suspense. What do they mean in your neck of the woods?


 
If THIS is what you were referring to, nzf here means nzfauna.  Turns out you're not so hot with the old abbreviations... (example of irony).


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## nzfauna

Hehe, nice.

My only point is that in NZE, irony and sarcasm are two completely different things (one is not a subset of the other), and are never confused, as in posts 10 and 17.


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## Gwan

nzfauna said:


> Hehe, nice.
> 
> My only point is that in NZE, irony and sarcasm are two completely different things (one is not a subset of the other), and are never confused, as in posts 10 and 17.



I think it may be a bit of an overstatement to say that they're *never* confused here, but in general I would agree sarcasm to be a cutting comment the opposite in meaning to what is actually said, and irony more situational. This includes such delightful things as going to, say, an Elton John concert 'ironically' - you're so super cool that you can go there as a supercillious pose. 

There's also my favourite, dramatic irony, which is a little different (in my understanding/usage) from the 'poetic irony' mentioned before (which I've actually never heard of as a concept, incidentally) - in dramatic irony, the audience is privy to information that the character in a play does not have and can see the errors of their ways, imminent doom etc. before they can. An example may be Macbeth's claim that he's safe because Birnam Wood will never come to Dunsinane.


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## Thomas Tompion

nzfauna said:


> Hehe, nice.
> 
> My only point is that in NZE, irony and sarcasm are two completely different things (one is not a subset of the other), and are never confused, as in posts 10 and 17.


Are you saying then, Nzfauna, that there can be no form of verbal irony which is not sarcastic? It would seem to be the natural inference from your claim. You definition of irony in post 17, 'irony is when a person is [well placed/wants/a good example] for situation A, but, frustratingly, situation B happens' seems to discount verbal irony altogether.


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## cuchuflete

Regarding the review of the autobiography, is it ironic that everyone who has commented here has focused on the reviewer's opinion of the author as an unfit subject for a biography?  I detect a much more subtle, but equally devastating attack on the genre itself.


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## nzfauna

Thomas, what do you call verbal irony?  We don't have that term in NZE.

Perhaps what you call "verbal irony", is part of what we call sarcasm.  Although, to us, sarcasm can be written or verbal.


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## Thomas Tompion

nzfauna said:


> Thomas, what do you call verbal irony? We don't have that term in NZE.
> 
> Perhaps what you call "verbal irony", is part of what we call sarcasm. Although, to us, sarcasm can be written or verbal.


Hi NZFauna,

You write as though verbal only means spoken - and this may have put us at cross-purposes, yet etymologically it just means _of words_ (it comes from the Latin _verbum_, a word), so verbal irony is spoken or written, and has nothing at all to do with situational irony, irony of circumstance, of which coincidence is probably a sub-set. Now when I said that sarcasm was a sub-set of verbal irony, I was expecting to be accused of nothing more grave than platitude.

I've had a New Zealander staying in the house the last two days and she seems very familiar with types of verbal irony other than sarcasm, so I'm having trouble accepting this claim that you seem to be making that New Zealanders in general don't use the words in what I would regard as the normal way. Perhaps I have misunderstood you.

For example, Jonathan Swift's Modest Proposal is deeply, verbally ironic, but couldn't be called sarcastic - it's not deliberately setting out to hurt the reader's feelings, for instance, and scholars have even argued about how seriously he was putting forward this proposal for preventing the children of poor people in Ireland from being a burden to their parents or country, and for making them beneficial to the public; whether he didn't actually mean his words to be taken at face value.

I'm afraid I would hold too, of course, that there were plenty of spoken ways of being ironic which wouldn't be regarded as sarcastic.


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## nzfauna

Perhaps I am not as abreast of the average NZer as I thought.  Or perhaps your NZ friend is more involved in English Academia and literature than I am (something I don't profess to be).  All I can do is comment on my own [fairly informed and broad] experience.

John Swift's writing seems to be in bad taste, tongue in cheek, and probably what I would call sarcastic (although I didn't read it closely or in its entirety).

I am removing myself from this thread because my comments obviously aren't helpful.


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## Outsider

It's curious how two such different concepts -- saying something without meaning it, and a set of circumstances that create humour -- ended up with the same name. ("Sarcasm" I see merely as a subset of the former kind of "irony", or as a form of brusqueness.)

Another interesting thing is that the latter kind of "irony", which Thomas has aptly named "situational irony", seems to be largely an anglophone concept. In other languages, irony normally means just "saying something you don't mean".


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## Thomas Tompion

Outsider said:


> It's curious how two such different concepts -- saying something without meaning it, and a set of circumstances that create humour -- ended up with the same name. ("Sarcasm" I see merely as a subset of the former kind of "irony", or as a form of brusqueness.)
> 
> Another interesting thing is that the latter kind of "irony", which Thomas has aptly named "situational irony", seems to be largely an anglophone concept. In other languages, irony normally means just "saying something you don't mean".


Interesting, Outsider; thank you. The French talk about irony of situation, and, of course, dramatic irony. 

It is strange that verbal irony, which originated in the idea of pretence, I think - pretending to think something a bit different from one's real position, as in Socratic irony  (pretending to be simple) - should have found its way into the same linguistic tent as co-incidence, or the fact of destroying one's own plans - classic ironic idea: the criminal's attempt to hide a crime he plans but doesn't succeed in committing, cause him to be unable to establish his innocence when someone else commits it.

Psychologists are very interested in verbal irony, of course. Here's an example. I had a pupil once who suffered from Asperger's syndrome, one of the symptoms of which is to take everything at face value. He had been a good bit in the hands of psychiatrists, I think, and had done tests on various sorts of irony - hyperbole, litotes, etc. When we studied the Modest Proposal together, he said to me that he was unable to cope with irony. I found it ironic that he had been told that part of his condition was that he couldn't appreciate irony, but he was capable of recognizing it when it was on the page in front of him.


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## Outsider

I found an interesting table by H.W. Fowler in the Online Etymology Dictionary. It doesn't have much information on the history of the meaning of the word "irony", unfortunately.

Your remark about French is also interesting. The idea of "situational irony" is probably not new in literary analysis. But it does seem to me that only English speakers use the word with that sense in everyday language.


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## Thomas Tompion

Outsider said:


> I found an interesting table by H.W. Fowler in the Online Etymology Dictionary. It doesn't have much information on the history of the meaning of the word "irony", unfortunately.
> 
> Your remark about French is also interesting. The idea of "situational irony" is probably not new in literary analysis. But it does seem to me that only English speakers use the word with that sense in everyday language.


Many thanks for that. I couldn't find the table in an online Fowler and my copy is across the road. I did, however, find this which is interesting for the double-audience idea. I don't altogether agree with it, neither, it seems, did Fowler on the second thoughts expressed in the passage. I prefer the origin in the idea of pretence, which explains most sorts of verbal irony, in my view, and which I find more persuasive that the echoic theory.


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## zakare

Outsider,

In most spoken languages apart from English, "situational irony" may not be a concept widely used, by rest assured that it does however exist. You are however right that in most Romance languages, the idea of irony corresponds to what I, as an American from the East Coast, would consider as sarcasm.


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## gasman

Surely sarcasm has a sort of "attack" about it. It is used to be somewhat nasty, deliberately; irony usually has a sense of gentle scorn.


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## El escoces

> Surely sarcasm has a sort of "attack" about it. It is used to be somewhat nasty, deliberately; irony usually has a sense of gentle scorn.


 
But the most effective irony can be devastatingly brutal. Isn't the difference that it is subtle, so that the "victim" of the irony is often blissfully unaware of it (although by and large everyone else _is_ aware, so that he who is not becomes a target of mirth or scorn) whereas there is no point being sarcastic if your target doesn't notice it?

EDIT:  and now that I have taken the time to read the excerpt from The Other World blog kindly provided by TT, what I was trying to say in this post seems to me to fit roughly into the concept of the double audience generally necessary for irony to work.


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## gasman

But, surely, there does not have to be a "victim" of irony. It can be addressed to a situation, an intent, a description etc..


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## El escoces

> But, surely, there does not have to be a "victim" of irony. It can be addressed to a situation, an intent, a description etc..


 
That's true, in the case of situational irony, poetic irony etc referred to by others in earlier posts.


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## james.

I agree with the first poster's examples. I think many of the Greek myths are, to me, the ultimate examples of tragic irony.


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## cyberpedant

My two cents (actually, the Online Etymology Dictionary's):
sarcasm 

1579, from L.L. sarcasmos, from Gk. sarkasmos "a sneer, jest, taunt, mockery," from sarkazein "to speak bitterly, sneer," lit. "to strip off the flesh," from sarx (gen. sarkos) "flesh," prop. "piece of meat," from PIE base *twerk- "to cut" (cf. Avestan thwares "to cut"). Sarcastic is from 1695. For nuances of usage, see humor.The Jesuits, masters of rhetoric, always taught me that irony was simply saying the opposite of what one means, and sarcasm was being hurtful, ironically or not.


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## johndot

Where, I wonder, does sardonicism fit into the scheme of things?
 
The distinction that I’ve always believed to separate sarcasm from irony is that whereas the former is deliberately hurtful, the latter has an overriding, twist-of-fate-_ful_ sadness about it.__


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## El escoces

> Where, I wonder, does sardonicism fit into the scheme of things?


 
Well, if I read him correctly, Fowler suggests that irony lies between sarcasm on the one hand and sardonic (_sic_) on the other - or, in terms of the aim he cites for each, you travel from inflicting pain to self-relief, through exclusiveness. I have always thought self-relief and exclusiveness generally coincide....so does that mean irony and sardonic overlap, whereas those who prefer a bit of verbal S&M constitute something else altogether?


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## Outsider

james. said:


> I agree with the first poster's examples. I think many of the Greek myths are, to me, the ultimate examples of tragic irony.


Very true. I've started a thread about this in the Greek forum.


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## Blues5150

I am relieved to see these comments.   I have a habit of making ironic comments about the difficulties we encounter in my office, trying to accomplish tasks that are near-impossible due to reasons I won't go into, but which are at times frustratingly Kafka-esque.   My co-worker began characterizing my statements as sarcastic, when they weren't intended to insult anyone or hurt anyone's feelings.  This was really disturbing to me, and I am glad to see so many people have trouble sorting this out.


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## voxideo

cuchuflete said:


> I wonder which bucket this would fit in best?
> 
> The autobiography is very well written.  It gives a thorough and detailed accounting of events, with due attention to all those involved. It is among the finest recent examples of this genre we have seen, suffering only from choice of subject matter. ​





With the proliferation of definitions for irony and sarcasm floating around in this thread I am surprised no one took 2 seconds to apply them each to this example. If you did you'd realize that the author of this example was neither saying the opposite of what he meant nor is it opposite of what is expected. The author is saying precisely what he wants to say, albeit in a clever or as another user put it "bitchy" way. He acknowledges that it is a detailed account of events and gives due attention to those involved.. he goes on to say that its a fine example of the genre.. then here comes his clever/bitchy part.. he says "suffering only from choice of subject matter". Here he is saying presiscely what he wants to say. That the choice in the subject matter is the only thing wrong with this autobiography. The fact that an autobiography is written by the subject matter is what lends to this quote seeming like its more intelligent/clever than it really is.. or that it is sarcastic/ironic. 



Now, lets totally ignore collaborative knowledge building and attack me for posting on an old thread. Let the attacking commence!


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## JuicyJew

Haha actually I completely agree with you. And for me, the difference between irony and sarcasm is simple. Sarcasm is intentional, irony is unintentional. 

I agree with what someone else said that it sounds silly to say that you yourself are being ironic. 

As far as "verbal irony" goes, I'd describe it more as being insincere.


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## Merrit

voxideo said:


> Now, lets totally ignore collaborative knowledge building and attack me for posting on an old thread. Let the attacking commence!


 

In this forum people are not normally attacked for adding to old threads. In fact, if you have something to contribute to a previous discussion, the previous thread is the preferred place to do so. 

It's a good way to keep discussions on a particular topic in one place, and to avoid having hundreds of threads re-hashing the same ideas.

Oh, and, by the way, welcome to the Forum. I hope you enjoy participating.

m


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## Thomas Tompion

JuicyJew said:


> Haha actually I completely agree with you. And for me, the difference between irony and sarcasm is simple. Sarcasm is intentional, irony is unintentional.
> 
> I agree with what someone else said that it sounds silly to say that you yourself are being ironic.
> 
> As far as "verbal irony" goes, I'd describe it more as being insincere.


 So you don't regard sarcasm as a form of irony, JJ?

Don't you think that some of the most searingly ironical of writers. e.g. Jonathan Swift, are deeply sincere?


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## JuicyJew

Thomas Tompion said:


> So you don't regard sarcasm as a form of irony, JJ?
> 
> Don't you think that some of the most searingly ironical of writers. e.g. Jonathan Swift, are deeply sincere?



Irony has a very loose definition, so yes sarcasm is a form of irony. But that doesn't mean I would refer to all or most of its instances as irony. It's like saying "I live in a structure".... Ok then...

And I don't know Jonathan Swift


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## Keith Bradford

For once, I think that a bit of etymology can help.  _Eiron_, in ancient Greek, meant "a deceiver", while _sarkazein _meant ""to strip off the flesh".  In modern British English the same distinction prevails: irony is doing or saying something deceptive, sarcasm is trying to hurt someone.

There are over a dozen forms of *irony*:
Saying more than you mean: "That is the most brilliant idea!" when it's merely good.
Saying less than you mean: "Einstein was quite bright, apparently".
Saying the opposite of what you mean: "I just love the way Hitler cared for all his people".
Saying the truth, when it has a double meaning: "Macbeth cannot be killed by man of woman born".
And of course dramatic irony, which is a situational form of the previous one.  I could go on and on.

*Sarcasm *may use irony, or not. Its aim is to hurt, and it may do this by simple tone of voice, as when children chant a victim's name or pronounce it sneeringly.  There, there is no irony involved at all.


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## sound shift

I'm interested in the proposition that sarcasm aims to hurt. If A talks mockingly of B and shows contempt for B when B is not present, B cannot be hurt, but aren't A's words sarcastic all the same?


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## LilianaB

Yes, I agree. Sarcasm and mockery are aimed to hurt. Irony is not. If it does hurt to a certain extent, it is not malicious at least.


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## Thomas Tompion

I could find you plenty of examples of malicious irony.  I'm surprised you make such a sweeping statement, Liliana.


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## LilianaB

So you think they are all malicious, Thomas? Thank you. I thought irony was not so bad. Would the difference be mostly in usage, then? Contextual difference mostly?


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## PaulQ

*Sarcasm *always has a degree of malice about it. 

"Oh brilliant, just brilliant! You mended it and now it doesn't work at all!"

*Irony* is devoid of malice or any emotion but has a poetic justice or injustice (a linking of two ideas in different contexts) and is usually an attribute of 'Fate', 

"Professor Wegener spent his life increasing the fruit yield in tomato plants; it was ironic that it was tomatoes that killed him - whilst crossing the road, he was hit by a truck laden with them."

"It was Henry Jones who, in 1839, postulated the idea that a particularly rare plant would cure the common cold. Jones spent his entire fortune and much of his life on searching the world for the plant. Ironically, had he simply looked in his wife's greenhouse, he would have found the plant; not only that, but his rival, Oscar Smith, did look there whilst conducting a scandalous affair with Mrs Jones. Smith claimed the credit for the discovery and became rich and famous."


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## modulus

sound shift said:


> I'm interested in the proposition that sarcasm aims to hurt. If A talks mockingly of B and shows contempt for B when B is not present, B cannot be hurt, but aren't A's words sarcastic all the same?


Of course they are. A sarcastic statement is designed to hurt; similar to a bomb that is designed to maim. The rest of the analogy is obvious---a bomb doesn’t cease to be bomb because no one was maimed when it exploded.


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## LilianaB

Yes, irony could be brilliant and have a positive effect on the environment. Only very witty writers created brilliant irony: Oscar Wild, G.B. Shaw and a few others. Sometimes life itself becomes the creator of irony. Sarcasm could only be tolerated in literary pieces: otherwise it is quite unbearable, unless it is really mild and has no real maliciousness in it, which can be indicated by the tone of voice, for example.


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## Thomas Tompion

I don't know how people can be so willing to use words like _always_ and _never_ in this sort of context.  Life is, thank Goodness, so much more complicated and varied than you represent it.


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## pwmeek

The classic example of irony (and it is clearly not malicious) is the O. Henry story "_The Gift of the Magi_" where a husband sells his pocket watch in order to buy his wife a set of beautiful hair combs, while she cuts off and sells her long hair to get money to buy him a fob for his watch.


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## PaulQ

Thomas Tompion said:


> I don't know how people can be so willing to use words like _always_ and _never_ in this sort of context.


Yes I agree with you, do you perhaps, in your wisdom, have an example to share of sarcasm free of all degrees of malice?


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## Thomas Tompion

PaulQ said:


> Yes I agree with you, do you perhaps, in your wisdom, have an example to share of sarcasm free of all degrees of malice?


My neighbour's dog occasionally raids my garden for plastic flower pots, and likes then to walk around with one in her mouth wagging her tail. Her habit irritates me mildly, for I have a use for the pots, and I often tell her that she's a very clever dog to come and take them in this way. When I say this I am certainly being sarcastic - I don't think it clever of her to steal the flower pots - but my action is devoid of malice: I wish her no ill at all and don't think that any harm can come to her from my saying this.

Can you be confusing malice with criticism?


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## pwmeek

Thomas Tompion said:


> My neighbour's dog occasionally raids my garden for plastic flower pots, and likes then to walk around with one in her mouth wagging her tail. Her habit irritates me mildly, for I have a use for the pots, and I often tell her that she's a very clever dog to come and take them in this way. When I say this I am certainly being sarcastic - I don't think it clever of her to steal the flower pots - but my action is devoid of malice: I wish her no ill at all and don't think that any harm can come to her from my saying this.



Perhaps we could call this example *irony* since there is no (human/sentient) listener to be injured, and reserve *sarcasm* for those occasions where malice _is_ intended.


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## truepurple

nzfauna said:


> According to the NZ Collins dictionary...
> 
> Irony =
> *1) An event that is the opposite of what is expected.*
> 2) Use of words to mean the opposite of what is said.
> 
> *Sarcasm = 1) Use of "ironic" remarks.* [i.e. like Irony 2)]
> 
> Although NZ dictionaries contain expanded definitions for both these words only Irony 1) and Sarcasm 1) are used. In fact, even educated NZers are shocked to find that either word can be used in the definition of the other. To us they are completely different concepts.




I agree with this. I was going to write a post similar to this. There is some potential expanded definition I don't want to get into. But suffice to say, people are sarcastic, situations are ironic. I suppose a person could be ironic if they created or described a ironic situation.


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## Thomas Tompion

I was struck, reading Middlemarch recently, to see that George Eliot uses_ sarcasm_ in its 'sharply-mocking' sense, rather than restricting it to saying the opposite of what one means.

Here is an example: Lydgate is being quizzed by his impractical and spendthrift wife, Rosamond, on how much money they would need to emerge from their financial predicament -

_"But I mean how much should you want if we stayed in this house?" _

_"More than I am likely to get anywhere," said Lydgate, with rather a grating sarcasm in his tone. It angered him to perceive that Rosamond's mind was wandering over impracticable wishes instead of facing possible efforts. _

Lydgate's statement is bitter - he wants Rosamond actively to consider the economies they might make - and he means to  upset her a little, but he's saying what is true, not the opposite of what is true.  I was brought up not to call this sort of thing _sarcasm_.

I wonder if the standard meaning has altered a little over the years, though I note that several members use the word _sarcasm_ in George Eliot's way.


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## Keith Bradford

truepurple said:


> ... But suffice to say, people are sarcastic, situations are ironic. I suppose a person could be ironic if they created or described a ironic situation.


I've just read in Alan Bennett's _Writing Home_: "We are taken to meet the mayor [of Lvov], a large *ironic* man, who ... tells us of the contacts the city maintains with expatriate Ukrainians... I mention that most of the Russians in _An Englishman Abroad_ were played by members of the Ukrainian colony near Dundee. 'What a pity', he says. 'Next time maybe they'll play Ukrainians.'"


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## truepurple

Thomas Tompion said:


> with rather a grating sarcasm in his tone



First I would have phrased it "with a rather grating sarcasticness in his tone." Sarcasticness is more of a adjective then sarcasm In My Opinion.

Secondly, I would point out that it is being used as a adjective for the tone. That means the tone was such that it was like sarcasm, (has the bitingness bitterness that usually accompanies sarcasm) but that is not the same as saying what was said, was sarcasm.



Keith Bradford said:


> I mention that most of the Russians in _An Englishman Abroad_ were played by members of the Ukrainian colony near Dundee. 'What a pity', he says. 'Next time maybe they'll play Ukrainians.'"



I did say that describing or creating ironic situations could be called irony. He is describing a ironic situation where they play Ukrainians. Though you could also call it sarcasm. Since he is trying to make a point with his polar words.  And there is the biting malice in there too. Of the two, I think sarcasm/sarcastic is the better word to describe this.

I should also probably narrow down the definition of sarcasm IMO.  It is saying the opposite to make a point or to emphasize something. Usually based on the premise that it is obvious what is actually the case. But malice is not required.

A kid could sarcastically say "Right, I am not going to have any fun at Disney world" (I have no opinion on how fun or not Disney world is, just a example) This sarcastic comment might not have any bite or malice at all to it. But it's still sarcasm. In this case the point/emphasism being made is how sure the kid is that Disney world will be fun, that the kid feels it should be obvious to everyone.


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## velisarius

I would advise against using a made-up word like "sarcasticness", because people will think you are ill-educated, rather than "creative".

Edit: "sarcasticness"appears in a couple of "proper" dictionaries. What is the world coming to?


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## Thomas Tompion

truepurple said:


> First I would have phrased it "with a rather grating sarcasticness in his tone." Sarcasticness is more of a adjective then sarcasm In My Opinion.
> 
> Secondly, I would point out that it is being used as a adjective for the tone. That means the tone was such that it was like sarcasm, (has the bitingness bitterness that usually accompanies sarcasm) but that is not the same as saying what was said, was sarcasm.
> 
> 
> 
> I did say that describing or creating ironic situations could be called irony. He is describing a ironic situation where they play Ukrainians. Though you could also call it sarcasm. Since he is trying to make a point with his polar words.  And there is the biting malice in there too. Of the two, I think sarcasm/sarcastic is the better word to describe this.
> 
> I should also probably narrow down the definition of sarcasm IMO.  It is saying the opposite to make a point or to emphasize something. Usually based on the premise that it is obvious what is actually the case. But malice is not required.
> 
> A kid could sarcastically say "Right, I am not going to have any fun at Disney world" (I have no opinion on how fun or not Disney world is, just a example) This sarcastic comment might not have any bite or malice at all to it. But it's still sarcasm. In this case the point/emphasism being made is how sure the kid is that Disney world will be fun, that the kid feels it should be obvious to everyone.


Five points, Truepurple:

1.  It was bold of you to try to improve on George Eliot's phrase.

2.  As Velisarius says, the noun is _sarcasm_.

3.  It is, beyond question, a noun and is being used as a noun here.

4.  My use of the word is very similar to the use you describe, and I've said as much earlier in the thread.  Fowler's table says it works by inversion (saying the opposite of what one means), and that's how I originally learnt to use it.

5.  My point in post #74 was to present the view of George Eliot, who has a great reputation as a sage with those who read her books - Middlemarch is held by many academics to be the greatest novel in the language, for what that's worth.  George Eliot uses it in a different way: a way which meets all the criteria in Fowler's column for Sarcasm, other than Method/means: Inversion.  I'm not clear that I would even call Lydgate's statement ironic, though it is certainly intended to cause pain.


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## truepurple

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/sarcastic http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/ness

Sarcasticness is proper English, not a made up word. Just like if I were to add un to sarcastic, unsarcastic would be a word.  Like how adding "ish" to the end of a word makes a approximate, close but not quit, meaning, "sarcasticish" would be sorta sarcastic. I don't know what these modifiers are called, but they are part of English.



Thomas Tompion said:


> 3. It is, beyond question, a noun and is being used as a noun here.





> with rather a grating sarcasm in his tone



It is clearly describing a quality of the tone of voice, something that is descriptive of a quality, is a adjective.  If we put biting in place of sarcasm/sarcastic, would you still call it a noun? I don't see how it could be any more obvious this is being used as a adjective.

And my only sentiment to your elitism that can not be wrong/can not do wrong, regarding George Eliot, is anger and disgust. There is no one who's allowed to be a be a ultimate unquestioned authority on a language. It's not like he was weighing in on this issue, just wrote a sentence for a story. And again, description of tone. It doesn't say the statement itself was sarcasm. YOU are adding things George did not say.


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## siares

Thomas Tompion said:


> he means to upset her a little, but he's saying what is true, not the opposite of what is true.


Hi Thomas,
I am interested whether there is a name for this attitude, if it doesn't fall under sarcasm, for example for _Really?_ where it doesn't express genuine surprise but the tone implies bad-natured disbelief.
Thank you.


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## Loob

truepurple said:


> ... And my only sentiment to your elitism that can not be wrong/can not do wrong, regarding George Eliot, is anger and disgust. There is no one who's allowed to be a be a ultimate unquestioned authority on a language. It's not like* he* was weighing in on this issue, just wrote a sentence for a story. ...


Maybe there's some irony here, given that George Eliot was a woman?

Retreating to my cave to watch and learn


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## Thomas Tompion

Loob said:


> Maybe there's some irony here, given that George Eliot was a woman?[...]


Yes, I'd noticed that.  A particularly delicious irony.


siares said:


> I am interested whether there is a name for this attitude, if it doesn't fall under sarcasm, for example for _Really?_ where it doesn't express genuine surprise but the tone implies bad-natured disbelief.


I think bad-tempered disbelief would have been regarded as sarcasm - moderately-mordant indirect criticism - in the nineteenth century, on the evidence of George Eliot, but no inversion is used, so Fowler wouldn't have allowed it.

Some of the other members here say they use 'sarcasm' in this, to me, old-fashioned sense, so that use seems to be far from dead, Siares.


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## siares

Thank you for introducing me to 'mordant', Thomas.


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## truepurple

Not knowing George Eliots gender is not irony, it's completely irrelevant.

What would you call it without inversion? How about scorn, contempt, displeasure, dispute, the list could go on and on.  And again, you don't need the anger/negative sentiment in order to have sarcasm, yet you are saying that is solely what defines sarcasm. What would you call the boy saying no kid would have fun at Disney world in my example? Remember, no bitingness/negative sentiment in this example.

Also "Really?" is a inversion of intended meaning, so easily falls into my definition of sarcasm.

P.S. Responding to several people at once and treating it like a combined sentiment. Sorry about that. I don't want to spend any more time and energy on this to sort it out more though.


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## PaulQ

zakare said:


> dictionary.com tells me that the difference between the two words above is that sarcasm is just a harsh intentionally insulting/hurtful form of irony.
> But common usage of the two terms tells me otherwise...


Those definitions are good. However, in AE1 in particular, I do see a gradual loss of the distinction: everything humorous, sarcastic or ironic becomes "irony." In BE, and amongst better AE writers, the difference is, to a large extent, maintained.



truepurple said:


> Not knowing George Eliot's gender is not irony, it's completely irrelevant.


No. To you and the argument you advanced, it does not seem ironic - irony rarely does to the subject - but to the objective observer, it is ironic that you should use her as an example yet, by making an ironic mistake, you have lessened the force of your argument by causing a distraction in that argument, allowing _ad hominem_ to be applied. (Huh! If truepurple doesn't know George Eliot is a woman, what credence can we place on his argument?")




1 for a comment on this loss of the distinction, see: http://rebirthofreason.com/Spirit/Jokes/92.shtml - "A friendly jest at our American counterparts":

Jay Fullmer, 38, last month became the first American to get to grips with the concept of irony. "It was weird" Fullmer said. "I was in London and like, talking to this guy and it was raining and he like, pulled a face and said, "Great weather eh?" and I thought - "Wait a minute, no way is it great weather".

Fullmer then realised that the other man's 'mistake' was in fact deliberate.

Fullmer, who is 39 next month and married with two children, aged 8 and 3, plans to use irony himself in future. "I'm, like, using it all the time" he said. "Last weekend I was grilling steaks and I burned them and I said 'Hey, great weather!'"


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## Thomas Tompion

PaulQ said:


> If truepurple doesn't know George Eliot is a man, what credence can we place on his argument?


When I did philosophy at university, it wasn't possible to know that George Eliot is a man.


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## truepurple

What does knowing GE have to do with knowing what sarcasm is? There is no connection. And you are right, it *IS* a ad hominem, not one I "opened myself up to", but one that just came uncalled for.  Also, it wasn't my example, I was replying to someone elses example!  And then it was someone else who brought up the "unquestionable" GE after I replied to that example someone else gave, with no mention to GE. And then when I responded to statement that anything GE says is right, is wrong, nothing in my statement required me knowing GE since all I said is that _no one_ has the right to be the ultimate authority on proper English. How does it feel to be so wrong on so many levels, Paulq.



PaulQ said:


> "It was weird" Fullmer said. "I was in London and like, talking to this guy and it was raining and he like, pulled a face and said, "Great weather eh?" and I thought - "Wait a minute, no way is it great weather".



_That_ is sarcasm. Not irony.  No doubt in my mind and fits perfectly with the definition I gave of these words earlier. If anything is sarcasm, that is. Also, how did you go about getting your example, random internet search? And what exactly are you trying to say with it?


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## truepurple

Sarcasm has a strong negative connotation in US english. I wonder if some people use irony where they should use sarcasm, simply to avoid this negative connotation. Too many negative connotations in US english given too much credence IMO.


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## Hermanubis

Sarcasm is meant to hurt; irony isn't.


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## truepurple

Hermanubis said:


> Sarcasm is meant to hurt; irony isn't.



Wrong.


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## Loob

truepurple said:


> Wrong.


Why?


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## truepurple

Why is the language thus? isn't that question too esoteric for this topic.


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## Loob

I ask again: why, truepurple, do you say that Hermanubis is wrong?

Your post 92 does not provide an answer.


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## truepurple

I say it is wrong, because it is not right.  I already detailed a more correct definition of irony and sarcasm.

If you are asking how Hermanubis got it wrong, I don't know. Maybe because of sarcasms negative connotation that took over the definition for some people.

To give another example of this, Fondle means "to handle or touch lovingly, affectionately, or tenderly; caress" But it has such a strong negative sexual connotation, that few people dare use it outside of that negative connotation.
But it would be proper for someone to say "I fondle my cat" and not mean anything perverse.

For practical purposes, it's not so useful for a word to try to guess at someones emotional intent unless the word is that emotional intent (like malice), in which case sarcasms definition would need to be expanded much more beyond even describing words (for example: the killer sarcastically stabbed his knife into his victim)  Hermanubis's incorrect definition tries to do just that, describe emotional intent. Besides, there are lots of words that are for emotional intent, we don't need sarcasm to also mean that.  But nothing else means to say the opposite of actual meaning to emphasize a point besides sarcasm that I know of.


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## Loob

Sorry, truepurple:
(1) I'm not asking how Hermanubis got it wrong, I'm asking why you think Hermanubis is wrong;
(2) Your response "I say it is wrong, because it is not right" doesn't help me;
(3) I'm afraid I didn't find your previous "more correct definition of irony and sarcasm" intelligible.

Perhaps you could explain again?


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## truepurple

You mean you find it *un*intelligible, I assume. Otherwise you would be accepting my reply. Also your question would make more sense with a "how"or "in what way" then a "why", though still too vague.

Irony is a a situation or description of a situation where a result is so incongruous with what is expected, it is the least expected, especially if that result is very fitting to the situation, usually something being the opposite. For example, it would be ironic if a sick person with many hospital bills fell down a flight of stairs, only to be unharmed, find a grand prize winning lottery ticket at the bottom and catch a cancer early thanks to the doctor visit after falling down the stairs. No one would expect a reversal of health and wealth to the better from falling down a flight of stairs, and that would be unlikely, which makes it ironic.

Sarcasm is saying the opposite of what you mean to emphasize something (with the presumption that the actual truth is obvious). Like saying "Great weather!" when you think the weather is awful.

If these answers are inadequate, please <…> be more specific.

_<-----Post has been edited by moderator (Florentia52) to remove non-contributory comment.----->_


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## MattiasNYC

truepurple said:


> Jay Fullmer, 38, last month became the first American to get to grips with the concept of irony. "It was weird" Fullmer said. "I was in London and like, talking to this guy and it was raining and he like, pulled a face and said, "Great weather eh?"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *That is sarcasm. Not irony. * No doubt in my mind and fits perfectly with the definition I gave of these words earlier. If anything is sarcasm, that is. Also, how did you go about getting your example, random internet search? And what exactly are you trying to say with it?
Click to expand...


It's definitely irony, and possibly sarcasm. Pretty much every definition I've read of "irony" defines it more or less as saying one thing while meaning another. In the above example the person who made the statement clearly wanted to emphasize how bad the weather was by saying it was nice. That's "irony". And if "sarcasm" includes "bitter remarks" it could also be "sarcasm".

No definition I have seen states the two as being mutually exclusive.


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## Cagey

Rule II of the forum: 

The Forums promote learning and maintain an atmosphere that is serious, academic and collaborative, with a respectful, helpful and cordial tone.
​It seems to be difficult to carry on discussion in the tone the forum requires. The thread is now closed. 

Cagey, moderator.

*Added*: This comment is not directed at the last few posters, but a general observation.


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