# 北京夏天很热



## L3P

各位好：

What is the *literal *translation of '北京夏天很热'？
Is it '北京的夏天很热 '  or 'in Beijing the summer is hot'?
Can I put 在 before 北京 to have smth like '在北京夏天很热',
if it`s the latter.

Same with '北京冬天可以滑冰'.

多谢。


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## YangMuye

L3P said:


> Is it '北京的夏天很热 ' or 'in Beijing the summer is hot'?


I think it's the latter. But we don't distinguish these two in this case.



L3P said:


> Can I put 在 before 北京 to have smth like '在北京夏天很热',


No, the preposition at the beginning of a sentence is normally omitted, otherwise it will sound like the adverbial phrase is fronted for some rhetorical reason.


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## L3P

YangMuye said:


> I think it's the latter. But we don't distinguish these two in this case



Thanks,YangMuye. To sum up,does the sentence below mean 'is the autumn cold'
or 'is it cold in autumn'?
北京秋天冷不冷？


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## YangMuye

You can say either. They are exactly the same, despite the ostensible structural difference.

But you can only say 我喜欢北京*的*秋天. In this case, 的 should be preserved because it connects two nouns. (Again, 的 can be omitted to create some rhetorical effect.)

Perhaps these two are only interchangeable when your are talking about how Beijing (or its autumn) is, because 北京 somewhat becomes the topic (or bigger topic).
When you put stress on 北京, contrasting it with 南京, 东京, etc., I think 的 is better added.


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## L3P

I got it.Thanks again,YangMuye.


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## SuperXW

The structure of 北京夏天很热 is often debated as either one of your understanding is possible.
Although 在北京夏天很热 is not very natural as Yang has explained, adding 在 is not totally unacceptable.
For example, by adding a comma and making it a written sentence in a prose, it may sound ok. I.e. 在北京，夏天很热。

Another funny thing is that you can often switch the places of 北京 and 夏天 without changing the meaning.
北京夏天很热。=夏天北京很热。
北京的夏天很热。=夏天的北京很热。
北京在夏天很热。basically equals to 夏天在北京很热。
(For the third one people may have different comments. 在 may cause argument. I also feel the emphasis is different, as 在 leads a time or place modifier, which is not as important as the subject.)


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## L3P

SuperXW said:


> Another funny thing is that you can often switch the places of 北京 and 夏天 without changing the meaning.
> 北京夏天很热。=夏天北京很热。
> 北京的夏天很热。=夏天的北京很热。
> 北京在夏天很热。=夏天在北京很热。(For this one, the emphasis is more different, as 在 leads a time or place modifier, which is not as important as the subject.)




Looks like in  北京夏天很热 and 北京的夏天很热  北京 is the modifier  of 夏天 (the Beijing autumn,Beijin`s autumn),whereas in 夏天北京很热 and 夏天的北京很热     夏天 (an autumn Beijing) is the modifier  of 北京.
So the meaning IS slightly changed,right?


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## YangMuye

I think the normal word order is 北京夏天很热. “Being Hot in summer” can be considered a characteristic of a place, but “Beijing is hot” can hardly be considered to be a characteristic of a season. I think “北京” is topicalized. “夏天” may or may not be topicalized. They don't modify each other. In ether case, the scope of 北京 should enclose 夏天很热, therefore 北京 should precede it.

夏天的北京很热 sounds better than 夏天北京很热 to me. 北京 is the unambiguous topic/subject modified by 夏天的.


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## Ghabi

The structure 在北京，夏天很热 is of course very common in translation (especially when the translator has no energy or desire or both to produce "Chinese Chinese"), but I wonder if it's common in really natural speech, where the topic-comment structure reigns supreme.


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## YangMuye

Ghabi said:


> but I wonder if it's common in really natural speech,





> 我五年前搬家到了北京。在北京，夏天很热。每天晚上，我…


Because Beijing has been mentioned in the previous sentience, the speaker is expected to continue with what happened in Beijing. In this case, 在北京, shared by the two sentences, can be fronted to increase the coherence of narration.

But in this case, 夏天很热 is not a characteristic of Beijing anymore, but part of the experience in Beijing.


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## brofeelgood

L3P said:


> Looks like in  北京夏天很热 and *北京的夏天很热*  北京 is the modifier  of 夏天 (the Beijing autumn,Beijin`s autumn),whereas in 夏天北京很热 and *夏天的北京很热*     夏天 (an autumn Beijing) is the modifier  of 北京.
> So the meaning IS slightly changed,right?



Although the subjects are different, the core idea hasn't changed much. It's a peculiar case, this.
北京的夏天很热 = Beijing's summers are hot.
夏天的北京很热 = Beijing is hot in the summer.


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## retrogradedwithwind

Maybe this is a better translation 
北京夏天很热
It is hot in Beijing in summer 
在北京，夏天很热
In Beijing ,it is hot in summer 
在夏天，北京很热(this is weird to me )
In summer ,it is hot in Beijing


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## M Mira

Could it be that they're parallel? I got this idea due to that both
夏天很熱 and
北京很熱
Are valid sentences, and if I analyse them as
"Scope: Summer, State: Hot" and
"Scope: Beijing, State: Hot",
then the sentence in OP would be
"Scope: Summer&Beijing, State: Hot"
Then "summer" and "Beijing" are temporal and spatial scope delimiter, respectively, and modifies the complement, not each other.


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## Messquito

Chinese grammar structure is more focused on conveying the idea, whereas English, or many other western languages are more focused on the logic.
In English, when you add a new element in a sentence, you have to think about the correlation about this element with several others in this sentence to make it logical.
For example, here is a sentence, "It is hot in summer." Now, you know you are talking about *Beijing*, but you can't just simply add "*Beijing*" in this sentence. You have to think about the connection between "*Beijing*" and the original sentence. And finally you got "*In Beijing*, it's hot in summer." or "It's hot in summer *in Beijing*." *Beijing* has to be preceded by *in*.

In Topic-prominent languages like Chinese, on the other hand, it is perfectly fine to put Beijing before the original sentence and make it grammatically correct: "北京夏天很熱" This is what we call a Topic-Comment sentence.
What is a Topic-Comment Structure? Take 北京夏天很熱 for example. 北京 is the Topic, and 夏天很熱 is the comment. Topic is what we are talking about, and Comment is what we want to talk about it. So when you see 北京夏天很熱, you could say that the speaker is talking about 北京.
北京夏天很熱 You are talking about Beijing. As in "I've got something to complain about Beijing: it's hot in summer there."
北京的夏天很熱 You are talking about Beijing's Summer. As in "There's something about Beijing's summer: it's hot."
北京冬天可以滑冰 You are talking about Beijing. As in "Let me tell you something cool about Beijing: in winter, you can skate there!"
冬天北京可以滑冰 You are talking about the winter. As in "I'll tell you about the fun of winter: we can go skating in Beijing!"

To further analyze the structure, you can find a secondary Topic-Comment even in the Comment (The secondary Topic here can be seen as the subject):
北京夏天很熱 --> 夏天很熱
北京冬天可以滑冰 --> 冬天可以滑冰

This is what we call a Topic-Comment sentence, which, is not really logical in a grammatical sense. On the other hand, when talking about the elements in the Comment itself, they have to be follow grammatical rules:
冬天可以在北京滑雪 In the Comment, the structure is "Auxiliary verb + adverb (in + place) + Verb." You can't delete 在 in this sentence because 北京 is not the Topic (which has to come first in the sentence or in a Comment)
(What YangMuye said in #4 is another example)

We can't say what exactly is the literal translation grammatical-wise because there are no similar structures in English. You just have to grab the idea: Topic is what we are talking about, and Comment is what we want to talk about it.

There is actually also Topic-Comment sentences in English. They are, however, not that arbitrary like in Chinese. They have to follow grammatical rules. Check this link: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topic–comment

Check this out for other languages where this structure is prevalent:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topic-prominent_language

Check this out for more examples:
http://resources.allsetlearning.com/chinese/grammar/Topic-comment_sentences


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## stephenlearner

How do you determine the first part in a sentence is a topic or a subject?
For instance, in 他喜欢游泳, is 他 the topic? We can say 他 is what we are talking about.
In English, in "He likes swimming", is He the topic?
Isn't it a subject?


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## M Mira

^
Most of the time, the subject is the topic as seen in your examples, but there are instances in Chinese where it isn't, for example,
功課作好了, where 功課 isn't the subject but is the topic.


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## YangMuye

stephenlearner said:


> How do you determine the first part in a sentence is a topic or a subject?
> For instance, in 他喜欢游泳, is 他 the topic? We can say 他 is what we are talking about.
> In English, in "He likes swimming", is He the topic?
> Isn't it a subject?


I believe topic is a seriously discussed, yet never vigorously defined term. 



M Mira said:


> Most of the time, the subject is the topic as seen in your examples, but there are instances in Chinese where it isn't, for example,
> 功課作好了, where 功課 isn't the subject but is the topic.


Why would you think 功课 is not the subject?
In Japanese, they would say 宿題が終わった in the same situation. Homework is the subject and marked by the subject marker が. They will not even use the topic marker は.
I think 功課作好了 can be considered a type of unmarked passive.

After all, I think "topic" is not very well defined in Chinese.


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## Messquito

YangMuye said:


> Why would you think 功课 is not the subject?
> In Japanese, they would say 宿題が終わった in the same situation. Homework is the subject and marked by the subject marker が. They will not even use the topic marker は.
> I think 功課作好了 can be considered a type of unmarked passive.
> After all, I think "topic" is not very well defined in Chinese.


I've personally seen は used. And I would see (私は)宿題が終わった as (我)功課做好了, and 宿題は終わった as 功課我做好了, the 功課 in the former being the _subject_ and the one in the latter the _topic_.
BTW, I agree with you that _Topic_ is not well defined in Chinese.


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