# Styles of romanization



## divisortheory

What styles of romanization does everyone here adhere to, and why? I'm particularly interested in knowing what styles of romanization native Japanese prefer. I always adhered to the verbatim transcriptions (e.g. 可能性 = kanousei) because my instinct always told me that this would be easier for Japanese people to understand at a glance. But come to think of it, I've never actually asked a Japanese person.  With regards to consonants, I use to prescribe to the tsu, shi, chi method of romanization, but I see native Japanese people almost exclusively using tu, si, ti.  For compound consonants I used to use (e.g.) sha, sho, cha, cho, etc but again I saw more and more native Japanese using sya syo cya cyo etc.  

Anyway, for beginning students, long time learners, and native Japanese alike, what do you prefer?


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## Beejay

Hey. :]

Beginning student here, well, sorta. I've been sporadically teaching myself with videos, books and tapes since January. I'm not really sure at what point I can consider myself beyond the title of "beginner", but I digress.

Naturally, when I started out, I preferred Hepburn because it gave approximate english phonetic spellings of the Japanese sounds. Though, after I learnt that many of the sounds couldn't be approximated well, and due to a few encounters with Japanese gamers on the net (who seemed to be using what Wikipedia calls "Kunrei-shiki"), I'm more curious about the romanisation preferred by the Japanese people themselves.

I consider this to be a pretty natural progression for anyone learning Japanese though, so I kinda expect others to have followed a similar path.

Anyways, all that aside, I know Hepburn always uses the macron above long vowels, but since I can't easily or quickly type those vowels with macrons, I tend to just put in the two vowels (adding the 'u' after 'o' for example). I still write 'shi', and 'chi' when typing in kana though (which now that I think about it, means one extra keystroke under Hepburn for some kana), so I guess I'm using some kind of weird Hepburn-Kunrei hybrid romaji.

Hmm.. I've gone halfway, and it means less keystrokes, maybe I should just start typing in Kunrei-shiki?

*scratches beard*


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## notnotchris

I personally can't stand kunrei-shiki romanization. It doesn't represent the sounds accurately to the English ear (eyes?). I heard that it was used before the war but was eventually scrapped. Today train stations, highway signs and other places that romaji is officially used in Japan are all in Hepburn romaji.

I think the reason most Japanese people use kunrei-shiki is because that is how they learn to type Japanese. Since what they type will be converted into hiragana, katakana or kanji anyway, it makes more sense to use less strokes (si instead of shi, tu instead of tsu) and use the same input method for きゃ and しゃ (consonant-y-a).

When it comes to long vowels and ん, however, there's no general consensus. I prefer not distinguishing between short and long vowels in romaji (I'm probably alone on this one) because aa, ii, ou, and uu look funny and ee and oo are confusing to English speakers (they look like 'i' and 'u'). Macrons are the best solution, but they are indeed a pain to type. Some (notably baseball players) will use 'oh' to represent a long o, but this is also unappealing to me for some reason. I prefer n over m in words like nihonbashi and shinbun because they still sound right and are closer to the original Japanese.

In conclusion, I think it's OK to type either arigato or arigatou or even arigatoh (but not arigatoo please) but please don't start typing itukusizima instead of itsukushijima... unless you plan to press the 変換 key.


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## _forumuser_

I agree, _kunrei shiki_ Romanization is obsolete. The reason it's still used is that the government stubbornly insists on keeping it as the official method in spite of its obvious shortcomings. Since romanization primarily serves non-speakers of Japanese, I think foreigners should choose the system that serves them best, regardless of what government officials say.


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## Flaminius

> [T]he government stubbornly insists on keeping it as the official method (...)


I'd admit some sectors of the government insists on _kunrei shiki_ but it is hardly a standard. One of the examples of sundry modified Hepburn system is a recent Visit Japan campaign by the Ministry for Land, Infrastructure and Transport (YŌKOSO! JAPAN). Another non-conformist sector is the Ministry of Foreign Affairs that issue passports with the holder's name romanised in a macronless Hepburn.

As you can see in the latter example, foreigners are not the only ones that need a sensible romanisation.  

I think I have mentioned this article some time ago but definitely worthy of a second reference:
http://www.cic.sfu.ca/tqj/GettingRight/romajiconundrum.html


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## _forumuser_

Flaminius said:


> I think I have mentioned this article some time ago but definitely worthy of a second reference:
> http://www.cic.sfu.ca/tqj/GettingRight/romajiconundrum.html



Yes, you did, but it's definitely worth a second look.


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## kusurija

Well, I thing, that all langues need their own ~式[shiki; siki]. This is the reason why(please excuse my poor english): In all languages may come their own types of misunderstandigs in transliteration of Japanese words. So what is ideal for english (ヘボン式[hebonsiki, hebonshiki - according Hepburn]) doesn't fit for other languages and vice versa. The reason why Japanese themself are using Hepburn rater than 訓令式[kunreisiki] is that most of Japan visitors are English speaking, their "economical value" is the greatest. (cf. Koreanese - not so much "loved" in Japan). The reason, why use the official _Kunreisiki _style has much smaller weight than commercial.
In Czech we use "チェコ式[tyekosiki;chekoshiki(?)]:
ア行[agyou],カ行[kagyou] - same as in Hepburn; latter I'll write "/H"
サ行[sagyou]: さ、し、す、せ、そ。Sa, ši, su, se, so.
タ行[tagyou]: た、ち、つ、て、と。Ta, či, cu, te, to. ナ行[nagyou]: /H;
ハ行[hagyou]: は、ひ、ふ、へ、ほ。Ha, hi, fu, he, ho. マ行[magyou]: /H;
ヤ行[yagyou]: や、ゆ、よ。Ja, ju, jo. ラ行[ragyou], ワ行[wagyou], ン: /H;
"Nigorized" (濁り): サ行[sagyou]: ざ、じ、ず、ぜ、ぞ。Za, ži, zu ze, zo.
タ行: だ、ぢ、づ、で、ど。 Da, ži/(dži), zu/(dzu), de, do. ハ行: /H(ba,pa);
ゔぁ(sorry, this follows be written in katakana, but in my PC I can't do it): Va (and so on: vi, vu, ve, vo).


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## kusurija

Coninued...
Komplex syllabes: きゃ、きゅ、きょ、ぎゃ。.. Kja, kju, kjo, gja, gju, gjo. 
しゃ、しゅ、しょ、じゃ、じゅ、じょ。Ša, šu, šo; Dža, džu/(žu), džo. ちゃ、ちゅ、ちょ、ぢャ、ぢュ、ぢョ(sorry, this "ji" in katakana)。Ča, ču, čo; Dža, džu, džo. 
にゃ、ひゃ、びゃ、ぴゃ。The same style as きゃ: Nja, hja, bja, pja and so on.
フイ(sorry, this "i" follows be smaller): fi; チェ: če etc.
Lenght: ああ、アー、いい、イー、うう、ウー、エー、おお、おう、オー: á, í, ú, é, ó. Simillary in komplex syllabes: ほお、ほう。Hó. 
促音[sokuon]:つまる音[tsumaruon]: simply doubling the consonant: e.g. 北海道: Hokkaidó.

In Lithuanian I'm not sure, if is any official "リトアニア式", but writting manner is almost same as in Czech with these differents: instead "š" is "s": 
Czech: Šikoku; Lithuanian: Sikoku. "Ži" (sometimes?) as "Zi" ; in komplex syll.: Kia, kiu, kio; Gia, giu, gio; simillary: Nia, hia, bia, pia... "Ša" as Sia, siu, sio and so on. Where pronunciation ends with "~e" is used "~ė". Lithuanian does not distinguish long vowels, so lot of misunderstandings are possible.


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## Flaminius

I use romanisation primarily as a means to illustrate Japanese phonetics assuming the least amount of knowledge about Japanese on the part of the reader. In order to ensure my romanisation is understood by anyone, a letter should be used to denote only one particular phonetic value. In other words, I have "one letter, one sound" principle.

I use a modified Hepburn system. Kunrei-shiki, or anything that transribes Japanese script into Latin alphabet, is largely insufficient in terms of stable phonetic values. Some confusing notations transferred from _kana_ notations are;
"ou" for おう, which I render by ō or oo [sometimes I cannot avail myself of macron-friendly computers]
"ei" for えい, which I render by ē or ee [in standard spoken Japanese, えい in Sino-Japanese vocabulary, such as 映画 えいが has regularly turned into a long E]
(These are long vowels falsely described as diphthongs)

"ha" for は (as in 私は), "he" for へ (as in 北海道へ) and "wo" for を (as in 電話を),
which, again, in the light of phonetic romanisation should be "wa", "e" and "o"
(These are transference from obsolescent Japanese spelling)

and finally, "n" for ん when the Japanese script is placed before a bilabial consonant (e.g., 新聞 しんぶん shimbun).

Actually, I am not very satisfied with the notation I use on these forums since "one letter, one sound" principle is not enforced in case of "sh," "ch" and variations of moraic N other than /m/ (which are /ŋ/ before a velar stop, /ɲ/ before a palatal and /ɴ/ at a word-final position).  In a more weirdo-friendly world, I'd be using a hybrid of Latvian and Czech systems.


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## Beejay

Flaminius said:


> "ou" for おう, which I render by ō or oo [sometimes I cannot avail myself of macron-friendly computers]
> "ei" for えい, which I render by ē or ee [in standard spoken Japanese, えい in Sino-Japanese vocabulary, such as 映画 えいが has regularly turned into a long E]
> (These are long vowels falsely described as diphthongs)


Speaking of which, there's something I'm curious about that I hope someone could help me with. Even though えい is supposed to be a long 'e' sound, what about when you say something like 駅へ行く. Should the 'e' sound of へ prior to the い sound that 行く begins with become a long 'e' sound?

It just seems to me that in this case, it allows potential for confusion if a word following an 'e' sound loses what would be its first syllable when said alone.

*Moderator Note
Your second question is moved to a new thread.
*


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## kusurija

kusurija said:


> Coninued...
> 
> _In Lithuanian_ I'm not sure, if is any official "リトアニア式", but writting manner is almost same as in Czech with these differents: instead "š" is "s": ...
> ... Lithuanian does not distinguish long vowels, so lot of misunderstandings are possible.


Sorry, I forgot one letter, which enable distinguish: length of vowels u/*ū*:
ふう: f*ū*, 柔道: dziudo in general use/dzi*ū*do and so on...
In Czech, there is a difference between Čekošiki(Č) and general use (gu). 
E.g. 東京: Tókjó(Č)/Tokio(gu), 柔術 džúdžucu(Č)/jiu-jitsu(gu)[džiudžicu]  for 柔道 judo/džudo(gu)/džúdó(Č). (In general jiu-jitsu is obsolete and not good for using, but, - who knows why - it's used to use in Czech...)
Particles:は, へ and を are transcribed in Čekošiki to "wa", "e" and "o" (sometimes as "(w)o". 
えい is furthermore transcribed to "ei" omiting the pronunciation ē , simillary is transcribed sukoši instead skoši or desu instead des and so on.
にゃ: nja
~んや: n'ja


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## notnotchris

If one is looking for general consensus on romanization, a good place to look is Wikipedia's style guidelines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_for_Japan-related_articles

I don't agree with all the policies, but they were developed by consensus more or less


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## Anatoli

Interesting that letter "V" is not allowed in Japanese passports, even if a person (for example from a mixed family) chose a foreign name with a V, e.g. Kevin.


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## notnotchris

For real? That sounds crazy! Why would they restrict anything that involves official spelling?

This reminds me of my hate affair with the Japanese pronunciation of V - (bui)


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## Flaminius

Beejay said:


> Speaking of which, there's something I'm curious about that I hope someone could help me with. Even though えい is supposed to be a long 'e' sound, what about when you say something like 駅へ行く. Should the 'e' sound of へ prior to the い sound that 行く begins with become a long 'e' sound?


えい is pronounced as a long E ([eː]) for Sino-Japanese vocabulary.  Japanese indigenous vocabulary (e.g., エイ; ray (fish)) and incidental juxtaposition (such as "eki *e i*ku") are [ei].

Similarly for おう, one needs to distinguish between long O and genuine [oɯ] such as 王 (ō; king) vs. 追う (ou; to run after).


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## Beejay

Flaminius said:


> えい is pronounced as a long E ([eː]) for Sino-Japanese vocabulary.  Japanese indigenous vocabulary (e.g., エイ; ray (fish)) and incidental juxtaposition (such as "eki *e i*ku") are [ei].
> 
> Similarly for おう, one needs to distinguish between long O and genuine [oɯ] such as 王 (ō; king) vs. 追う (ou; to run after).


Ahh, that does clarify it a bit, thanks. :]


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