# Causative



## FRENFR

Hello chums,

I asked how I might say "She makes me study every day", as in, she encourages me, sometimes 'forces' me, etc...

I see that it is not as simple as:  "she + verb for 'to make someone do something' + "me" (engem/ed or something refering to 'me) and then the standard 'tanulni minden nap'.... BUT NO!

Alas, I discover (t)(a/e)t.

After reading the Hungarian reference website, I am more confused.  Miss FRENFR has told me that 'tanulni' is naturally not a word she would use tat/tet with but doesn't know why.  She said because studying is in MY brain and someone can't be in my brain to make me study.  I see where she is trying to come from.

However, now I see that perhaps this is not actually a good translation, tat/tet for 'to make someone do something' in the sense of encourage/force/oblige... perhaps it is simply a cause/result (hence, 'causative', rather than 'obilge/force), no?

In French, one uses faire faire (to make to do).  She makes me study, would simply be:  elle me fait (she makes (to) me to study) étudier.

She laughed when I tried to say tanultat engem/nekem (or whatever I stupidly said)!!  (no doubt you did, too!).

How do you express this?  I simply imagine speaking with her parents and saying that yes, she is wonderful; for example, she makes me study every day, she makes me play the piano for her every day...

HELP!!!!

Thanks


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## Akitlosz

She makes me study every day.

Tanít engem minden nap. She teach me every day.

Tanultat engem isn't stupidly, but tanultat _nekem_ is wrong.

She makes me play the piano for her every day

Zongoráztat engem minden nap.


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## Tronn

Hi FRENFR,

I've got another solution for you:


_tanulásra késztet_ or _késztet tanulni_ as in "Minden nap tanulásra késztet/késztet tanulni."
 where _késztet_, as you might have inferred, means _to make sb do sth_, indeed. Yet I'm not sure that it would sound naturally to me to hear someone say this (and I'd love to hear the others' opinion on this). That's why I've got another suggestion:


_tanulásra ösztönöz/ösztökél_ as in "Minden nap tanulásra ösztönöz/ösztökél."
 which translates "She encourages me to study every day." and, in my opinion, captures the meaning more accurately and in a casual way (mind you, _ösztönöz_ and _ösztökél_ are synonymous).

Hope this helps. Good luck and lots of patience with studying Hungarian.


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## galaxy man

One relatively simple structure to express _she makes me study every day_ would be this:

Minden nap tanulásra késztet [engem]. 

Késztet approximately means compels.  This seems to be the least specific verb that comes to mind, it does not say whether the action is done verbally, through example or in some other way.

Other verbs could also be used in the same structure, although they all seem to comminicate additional specifics:

buzdít --> encourages (always verbally)
kényszerít --> forces (physically or mentally)
inspirál --> inspires
motivál --> motivates


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## Ateesh6800

*galaxy man* treads the right path. The *causative* exists in Hungarian, _but it is used far less frequently_ than in Indo-European languages.

You'd say
*"The dog made the cat climb the tree."*
in English, but you'd almost never use the causative "felmászat" to express this in Hungarian--except when trying to be funny or otherwise emotional:
*"A tanár ötvenszer felmászatott bennünket a kötélre!"*
_"The teacher made us climb the rope 50 times."_
If there is no agitation, you'd say this:
*"Fel kellett másznunk a kötélre."*
"We had to climb the rope."
*"Mondta, hogy másszunk fel."*
"She told us to climb."

I guess it may be a difference in how we Finno-Ugric nomads see the world.

*The causative is often used in pairs of verbs like:*

eszik/etet (to eat/to feed)
iszik/itat (to drink/to give water, e.g. to the baby  or the horse or bed-ridden grandma)
alszik/altat (to sleep/to put to sleep)
olvas/olvastat (to read/to make children read something out loud, e.g. a teacher)
leül/leültet (to sit down/to seat sy or make sy sit down)
megcsinál/negcsináltat (make or repair/have sg made or repaired)
legel/legeltet (to graise, ie. eat grass/to take animals to the pasture to graise, ie. to make animals eat grass)
elszámol/elszámoltat (render accounts/hold someone responsible for sg) 

_The best idea is to learn these as verb pairs._

However, we rather rarely use this type of causative "creatively", that is, as a standard solution for just any old verb.

*As a rule: Hungarian prefers subordinated clauses to complicated causatives.*

*arra buzdít, hogy (csináljak valamit)
arra késztet, hogy (csináljak valamit)
arra motivál, hogy (csináljak valamit)
rávesz arra, hogy (csináljak valamit)
*
Or:

*buzdít (a tanulásra)
késztet  (a tanulásra)
motivál  (a tanulásra)
rávesz  (a tanulásra)
*
The idea behind
*"She makes me study every day"*
would probably be expressed by a common Hungarian in a sentence like this:

*"Minden nap tanulok, mert ha nem, akkor kikapok."*
"I study every day, because if I don't, she scorns me."

*"Miatta tanulok minden nap."*
"It is because of her that I study every day."

*"Miatta tanulok, mert motivál, hogy szeretem."*
 "I study every day because it motivates me that I love her."

*"Szigorú tanár; minden nap tanulok."*
  "She's a strict teacher; I study every day."

*"Elvárja, hogy minden nap tanuljak."*
   "She expects me to study every day."

So my suggestion in a nutshell:
*(1)* be aware how the causative is formed
*(2)* try to learn verb pairs like csinál/csináltat and use them sparingly, in context when you have heard these forms being used by Hungarians
*(3)* When you get the Indo-European impulse to use a causative, resist automatically translating it with a Hungarian causative form; instead:
*(4)* think of two simple sentences ("Sokat segít; minden nap tanulok") or a verb phrase ("Minden nap segít tanulni") or a subordinated clause("Azt akarja, hogy minden nap tanuljak"), depending on what you actually want to express.

To give you some insight: when translating causatives from English into Hungarian, I often wonder and ponder what _actually_ is happening. Hungarian seems to want to know and say a lot more than what an otherwise handy but abstract and sterile IE causative structure can express.

*A.*


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## Zsanna

Some extra explanation:


Ateesh6800 said:


> *arra buzdít, hogy (csináljak valamit) *- (sort of)* encourage* = friendly enthusiasm is always involved in one way or another (better to see other examples with the same verb before using it, though)
> *arra késztet, hogy (csináljak valamit) -* it is a fairly neutral verb that expresses causative without betraying a lot about how it was actually done; what is sure is that the other person has found a way to make me carry out the action with some personal motivation (as opposed to simply obeying in order to avoid nagging/trouble etc.)
> *arra motivál, hogy (csináljak valamit)* - the same as the previous but more explicit
> *rávesz arra, hogy (csináljak valamit)*- that is "the verb" that hides the trick completely about how the other person has managed to convince me to carry out that particular action; but it expresses clearly that I didn't want it at the beginning but I ended up changing my mind and carrying it out


 


Ateesh6800 said:


> To give you some insight: when translating causatives from English into Hungarian, I often wonder and ponder what _actually_ is happening.


I agree. 
It seems to be quite important to us, surely, for reasons connected to the way we express the causatives.
But even on a personal level: it can be disturbing not to know how it went exactly... or annoying because it would be good to know the details if you have to give an exact translation.


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## FRENFR

You guys are just priceless.

I'll go through it all upon return from the shop (she didn't make me go to the shop, though  )


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## Ateesh6800

FRENFR said:


> (she didn't make me go to the shop)



Excellent example!

We have *megy/meneszt* as a pair of verbs. *Megy* is "to go"; *meneszt* is a causative that, however, is strictly limited in its use to a couple of contexts:

*(1) meneszt valakit (a munkahelyéről):* to fire someone (slightly ironic/informal)

*"Valami nem volt rendben körülötte, mert menesztették."*
"Something was fishy around her because she was sacked."

*(2)* In railway lingo, *meneszteni* means _"to signal to the engineer that he may pull out of the station"_.

In other word, we do have the causative form but its use may be limited to some established context. *"A feleségem elmenesztett a boltba"* does not work as a standard sentence. It would be understood but only as an individual native speaker's language play (which in the case of a non-native speaker would be percieved as a language mistake).

* "She made me go to the shop"* therefore _requires more specification in a Hungarian's brain_: she asked me; we flipped a coin and she cheated and I ended up going; she forced me at gunpoint; she blackmailed me into going to the shop (actually, this latter one happened to me once with my fiesty American ex, but I'll save you the details of the story).

*A.*


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## FRENFR

I thought you might pick up on that 

It seems the causative is indeed a _cause_ for concern in that it appears to have a slightly different meaning to the English 'make somone do something'... it seems to be more of 'an accident' kind of cause, than a 'request' kind of cause.  That is how I see it.

Watching the film made me change my ways = ??  I imagine this would be a good use of tat/tet because the film MADE you change, but indirectly, without force or obligation.

But, to say "I made you change the film" (for example, in the DVD player to another film), this would have to be said differently... as in your examples above.  I "told" you to change the film in the DVD player, or "If you didn't change the film, I'd hit you", this kind of thing.

Am I somewhat correct?


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## Ateesh6800

FRENFR said:


> "*Watching the film made me change my ways *= ??  I imagine this would be a good use of tat/tet because the film MADE you change, but indirectly, without force or obligation."



Following the algorhythm I suggested earlier: _I wouldn't start out from what type of 'causation' you see there in the English._  That would mean you're stuck in the English mindset. Think out of the box! 

Instead:

*(1)* How do you translate *change my ways*? This is a highly idiomatic expression in English. There are many ways to say _something similar_ in Hungarian but _it is impossible to find an exact equivalent for it_.

So let's pick one possibility: *azóta máshogy gondolkodom/viselkedem* (literally: _"I have been thinking/behaving in a different way since then"_; meaning: _"my thinking/behaviour has changed (a lot) since then"_).

*(2)* Something else to consider: The type of gerund you have in "Watching the film" is normally expressed by a clause in Hungarian. So normally you would not use a _noun_ like "a film megnézése". it is possible but it sounds sterile.

*(3)* My advice earlier: pick your idea apart into two simple sentences and link them somehow. Here is one possibility:

*Egészen máshogy gondolkodom/viselkedek, amióta megnéztem a filmet.*
I've been thinking/behaving very differently ever since I watched the film.

*But:*

*(4)* We have the verb pair *változik/változtat* (_change_ (intransitive) vs _change_ (transitive).
This is an established pair of verbs and you can simply say:

*A film megváltoztatta a látásmódomat.*
The film changed my way of seeing things.
*A film megváltoztatta a gondolkodásomat.*
The film changed my (way of) thinking.
*A film megváltoztatta a hozzáállásomat.*
The film changed my attitude.
*A film megváltoztatta a felfogásomat.*
The film changed my perception/understanding.

As I said before, you _could_ say this as well:

*A film megtekintése/megnézése megváltoztatta a látásmódomat.*
Watching the film changed my way of seeing things.

However, this does not sound natural in hungarian; it is not simple enough; it tastes translationese.

In a nutshell:
*(a)* *Don't* start out from what type of causation you see in the English because that is *not* going to be the key in saying the same thing in Hungarian.
*(b)* Pick apart your own English statement (*"Watching the film made me change my ways"*) into two simple and simply put ideas (*"I watched the film"* => *"My thinking/attitude changed"*).
*(c)* Then express these two ideas in Hungarian in simple ways.
*(d)* Then create a link between them using whatever technique you already know in Hungarian.

S1 [Megnéztem a filmet.] + S2 [Máshogy gondolkodom.]
Megnéztem a filmet. *Azóta már* máshogy gondolkodom.
*Mióta* megnéztem a filmet, máshogy gondolkodom.
*A film megnézése óta* máshogy gondolkodom.

*A.*


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## FRENFR

Marvellous  

My problem now is to use the dictionary to understand some of the words you have used!  Like, what is *megnézése *compared with *megtekintése* - but I know I must start a new thread.  I just don't know what to call it.

I've jotted down all your sentences.  Now to memorise and impress Lady FRENFR


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## Ateesh6800

FRENFR said:


> *But, to say "I made you change the film" (for example, in the DVD player  to another film), this would have to be said differently... as in your  examples above.  I "told" you to change the film in the DVD player, or  "If you didn't change the film, I'd hit you", this kind of thing.*



Now... 

We have the verb pair *kicserél *(to change DVDs) vs *kicseréltet* (have someone change DVDs).

As a result, it is really easy to say:
*I made you change the film*.
Kicseréltettem veled a filmet.

_What you use doesn't depend on the type of causation._ If you have *established active/causative* verb pairs, like in this case, you can go ahead and use them.

*Kicseréltem az olajat.* (I did it myself.)
*Kicseréltettem az olajat.* (I had the oil changed <in the garage>.)

*Alszik a gyerek.* (The kid is asleep.)
*Altatja a gyereket.* (She's putting the baby to sleep <by singing a lullaby>.)

You just have to learn these pairs of verbs one by one.

Strip your own message down to very basic statements (S1: the cause; S1: the effect); find ways to express both in Hungarian in a simple way; put the two together. Don't just mechanically translate causative by causative.

*A.*


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## FRENFR

Very good advice.

My one question is why 'vel/val' is required sometimes with this causative?

Kicseréltettem a filmet is wrong because there is no veled?  Why must this exist?  For me, (incorrectly, obviously), all the information is in 'Kicseréltettem' - the verb to change DVD's, to have to (tet) and em = me?


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## Ateesh6800

FRENFR said:


> "My one question is why 'vel/val' is required sometimes with this causative?"



It is an optional complement.

csinál + *tat* valami*t* (valaki*vel*) =
have (*someone*) do something

So:

*Megcsináltattam a kocsit.*
I had my car repaired.

It is understood that a mechanic was involved and therefore the complement is not necessary.

Sometimes you want to be more specific:

*A legjobb szerelővel csináltattam meg a kocsit.*
I had the best mechanic repair the car.

In other contexts:

*Levitettem a szemetet.*
I had the trash taken out.

*Levitettem a gyerekkel az összes szemetet, úgyis ő csinálta.*
I had the kid take all the trash out; he was the one who made it anyway.

In a nutshell: the -val/-vel is an optional complement; it is the subject (or active agent) of the action that you cause to happen.

*(1) *What happened:
*Apám *levágta a füvet.
_My dad mowed the lawn._

*(2)* When you _don't_ name who did the work:
*Levágattam* a füvet.
*I* had the lawn mowed. (I collect the credit.)

*(3)* When you do name who did the work:
Levágattam apám*mal* a füvet.
I had *my dad* mow the lawn. (I collect the credit.)

Here's a threat you might like to use when someone is pissing you off:

*"Megetetem veled a kalapodat!"*
_"I'll have you eat your own hat!"_
("Ill make you eat your own hat; I'll feed you your own hat.")

It's not survival Hungarian, but it's a causative. 

*A.*


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## Ateesh6800

FRENFR said:


> Kicseréltettem a filmet is wrong because there is no veled?


 
No, it's perfect as it is; you just don't care to specify who actually did the job. See previous explanation.



FRENFR said:


> Why must this exist?


 
The noun with the -val/-vel is an optional complement; it specifies who actually did the work/performed the action. Notice the difference:

*(1) Kihúzatta a fogát.*
_He had his tooth extracted._
Implied: by a dentist (who else?).

*(2) Kihúzatta a fogát... a helyi kováccsal!!!*
He had his tooth extracted _by the local blacksmith_!!! He's weird that way.


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## FRENFR

I went through all with Lady F and somehow I get it!

On to some vocabulary now so I can make some sentences


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