# Urdu: ذہِیــنیّت zahiiniyyat



## marrish

How can the meaning of ذہینیت be conveyed as used in the following sentence:

_ عوام کی فلاح و بِہبود کی بجائے قومی سلامتی کے مفادات کی طرف زیادہ توجہ مرکوز کرنا بنیادی طور پر فوجی*ذہینیـّت* کی پیداوار تھا۔
3awaam kii falaaH-o-bihbuud (behbuud) kii bajaa'e qaumii salaamatii ke mufaadaat kii taraf ziyaadah tawajjuh markuuz karnaa bunyaadii taur par faujii *zahiiniyyat* kii paidaavaar thaa.
_


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> How can the meaning of ذہینیت be conveyed as used in the following sentence:
> 
> _ عوام کی فلاح و بِہبود کی بجائے قومی سلامتی کے مفادات کی طرف زیادہ توجہ مرکوز کرنا بنیادی طور پر فوجی*ذہینیـّت* کی پیداوار تھا۔
> 3awaam kii falaaH-o-bihbuud (behbuud) kii bajaa'e qaumii salaamatii ke mufaadaat kii taraf ziyaadah tawajjuh markuuz karnaa bunyaadii taur par faujii *zahiiniyyat* kii paidaavaar thaa.
> _



Is n't the word "zihniyyat" (mentality)?


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## marrish

This is what I also had thought but it *zahiiniyyat* so on paper. Would it be a case of a typo? or perhaps an accurate representation in writing of such a word that is used by some? I must say that I had'nt been familiar with this word before I read this sentence.


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## Faylasoof

marrish SaaHib, shouldn't the word in question be ذِہْنِیَّت _ *zihniyyat*_ / _ *Zihniyyat*_ = _*mentality*_. Of course *faujii * _ *zihniyyat*_ / _*Zihniyyat = military mentality. *_

Also, we always say * کے* بجائے :

عوام کی فلاح و بِہبود* کے* بجائے قومی سلامتی کے مفادات کی طرف زیادہ توجہ مرکوز کرنا بنیادی طور پر فوجی *ذہنیـّت* کی پیداوار تھا۔



marrish said:


> How can the meaning of ذہینیت be conveyed as used in the following sentence:
> 
> _ عوام کی فلاح و بِہبود کی بجائے قومی سلامتی کے مفادات کی طرف زیادہ توجہ مرکوز کرنا بنیادی طور پر فوجی*ذہینیـّت* کی پیداوار تھا۔
> 3awaam kii falaaH-o-bihbuud (behbuud) kii bajaa'e qaumii salaamatii ke mufaadaat kii taraf ziyaadah tawajjuh markuuz karnaa bunyaadii taur par faujii *zahiiniyyat* kii paidaavaar thaa.
> _


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> Is n't the word "zihniyyat" (mentality)?


 I agree QP SaaHib it has to be zihniyyat!



marrish said:


> This is what I also had thought but it *zahiiniyyat*  so on paper. Would it be a case of a typo? or perhaps an accurate  representation in writing of such a word that is used by some? I must  say that I had'nt been familiar with this word before I read this  sentence.


 marrish SaaHib, this has to be a typo! Or else the writer has invented a new word which as yet hasn't found its way in common usage! *Perhaps he / she means by faujii zahiiniyyat = military intelligence!!* New jargon?


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## marrish

I have no choice but to concede to _zihniyyat_, having the opinion of both Excellencies!

Faylasoof SaaHib, I am aware of the propensity towards کے بجائے but it is printed _ کی_ in a book. This variant is deemed also correct, I believe.


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## marrish

Faylasoof said:


> marrish SaaHib, this has to be a typo! Or else the writer has invented a new word which as yet hasn't found its way in common usage! *Perhaps he / she means by faujii zahiiniyyat = military intelligence!!* New jargon?


The latter was exactly what I had considered while posting this thread! Well, I'm not alone with my wild theories!


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## Faylasoof

marrish said:


> The latter was exactly what I had considered while posting this thread! Well, I'm not alone with my wild theories!


 It seems great minds think alike!  But to be honest I haven't heard it being used! Not sure how "official" it is meant to be, i.e. is it already now part of press / military parlance? I know there is a drive to invent new vocabulary to meet modern demands.


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## Faylasoof

If the above suggestion is true then I wonder why they didn't opt for *فوجی مخابرات *_*faujii muxaabaraat*_= _military intelligence_. The term * muxaabaraat *is used throughout the Middle East for intelligence services. *zahiiniyyat *certainly gets marks for novelty!


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## marrish

Faylasoof said:


> If the above suggestion is true then I wonder why they didn't opt for  فوجی مخابرات  _faujii muxaabaraat_ = _military intelligence_. The term  _ مخابرات_ _muxaabaraat _is used throughout the Middle East for intelligence services.


Thanks very much for these remarks, I agree that _muxaabaraat _would be a much better choice. This confirms finally that it ought to have been _zihniyyat_.

Also, would you say that تھی could be used there?


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> Thanks very much for these remarks, I agree that muxaabaraat would be a much better choice. This confirms finally that it ought to have been _zihniyyat_.
> 
> Also, would you say that تھی could be used there?



Taken as a whole, "tavajjuh markuuz karnaa" would be masculine requiring a masculine verb.


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> If the above suggestion is true then I wonder why they didn't opt for  *فوجی مخابرات  *_*faujii muxaabaraat*_= _military intelligence_. The term  * مخابرات muxaabaraat *is used throughout the Middle East for intelligence services. *ذہینیـّت  zahiiniyyat certainly gets marks for novelty*!


lekin "zihn" vaalii intelligence aur "xabar rakhne vaalii" intelligence meN farq hai!


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## Faylasoof

marrish said:


> Thanks very much for these remarks, I agree that _muxaabaraat _would be a much better choice. This confirms finally that it ought to have been _zihniyyat_.
> 
> Also, would you say that تھی could be used there?


 Yes! We can take the last clause and would get: _(yeh) bunyaadii taur par faujii zihniyyat kii paidaavaar thii_, since _paidaavaar _is feminine!


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> lekin "zihn" vaalii intelligence aur "xabar rakhne vaalii" intelligence meN farq hai!


 _yeh aap mizaahan farmaa rahe haiN yaa waaqi3an!_


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## marrish

Faylasoof said:


> ... _*ذہینیـّت  *_*zahiiniyyat *certainly gets marks for novelty!



I welcome the observations of ALfaaz SaaHib who can tell us whether this word is used on TV.


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## Alfaaz

marrish said:
			
		

> I welcome the observations of ALfaaz SaaHib who can tell us whether this word is used on TV.


I don't think I have read or heard this word being used anywhere until now marrish SaaHib. Searching online just seems to give articles with spelling mistakes for ذہنیت.



			
				Faylasoof said:
			
		

> *Perhaps he / she means by faujii zahiiniyyat = military intelligence!!* New jargon?


 I thought of the same thing for a moment upon seeing the thread title, but then thought that it doesn't make sense:

it seems the _iyyat_ "suffix" makes اسم کیفیت
آدمیّت : آدمی ہونے کی حالت و کیفیت
جاہلیّت : جاہل ہونے کی حالت و کیفیت
آمریّت : آمرانہ نظام حکومت کی حالت و کیفیت
so following the pattern above...zaheeniyyat : ذہین ہونے کی حالت و کیفیت ............? Perhaps could be used to describe the condition of such...ذہینیت میں مبتلا کمسن افراد

It seems for subjects (and/or departments), _iyaat_ is added : محکمہ موسمیات ; so for intelligence, shouldn't it be something like: ذہانت--> ذہانیات ... (following سیاست --> سیاسیات) ...?


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## hindiurdu

Feels like a vulgarization to me, but a pretty natural one. (Zehn → Zehniiyat) + (Zahiin → Zahiiniyat) + (conflation between them) = this sentence. Looking at the construction and sense of the original sentence, this definitely feels like "military mentality" and not "military intelligence" (Centering attention on national security advantages instead of the people's success/well-being was fundamentally an outgrowth of military thinking). "Intelligence" doesn't work. Your perception may differ, but to me the sentence has an inherent sense of criticism in it. Also, somehow zahiin to me is a more "active" word than 'intelligent'. It implies "intelligent in a positive/thoughtful/deep way". Your mileage might vary.


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## hindiurdu

Alfaaz said:


> It seems for subjects (and/or departments), _iyaat_ is added : محکمہ موسمیات ; so for intelligence, shouldn't it be something like: ذہانت--> ذہانیات ... (following سیاست --> سیاسیات) ...?



But isn't this a different usage of "intelligence" that actually means "information"? In English, you would say "we have received intelligence that the enemy is building a bridge." But we wouldn't say "hameN zahiiniyat/zehaaniiyat mili hai ke dushman pul banaa raha hai" (even as an incorrect vulgarized form). Something sense-related to xabr makes sense here, no?


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## marrish

hindiurdu said:


> Feels like a vulgarization to me, but a pretty natural one. (Zehn → Zehniiyat) + (Zahiin → Zahiiniyat) + (conflation between them) = this sentence. Looking at the construction and sense of the original sentence, this definitely feels like "military mentality" and not "military intelligence" (Centering attention on national security advantages instead of the people's success/well-being was fundamentally an outgrowth of military thinking). "Intelligence" doesn't work. Your perception may differ, but to me the sentence has an inherent sense of criticism in it. Also, somehow zahiin to me is a more "active" word than 'intelligent'. It implies "intelligent in a positive/thoughtful/deep way". Your mileage might vary.



Yes, I am all the way with you, the text is very critical. The scenario of 'conflation' is equally possible, but an editorial error seems equally plausible.


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## Faylasoof

Alfaaz said:


> I don't think I have read or heard this word being used anywhere until now marrish SaaHib. Searching online just seems to give articles with spelling mistakes for ذہنیت.


 This is what I and QP SaaHib concluded as well! 



Faylasoof said:


> I agree QP SaaHib it has to be _*zihniyyat*_!
> 
> marrish SaaHib, this has to be a typo! Or else the writer has invented a new word which as yet hasn't found its way in common usage! *Perhaps he / she means by*_* faujii *__*zahiiniyyat = *__*military intelligence!!*_ New jargon?


 The point is that at times in the interest of neologism rules of word formation can be forgotten! Which is what we were wondering about. Hence the thought that perhaps somebody has tried to invent a jargon to conform to the English equivalent but in the process made an error. However, the bet was that it was a typo and the word intended was indeed *zihniyyat*!




Alfaaz said:


> I thought of the same thing for a moment upon seeing the thread title, but then thought that it doesn't make sense:


 You are right! It doesn't make sense but words not making sense do get used and can even become common!

Interesting to note that you too haven't read or heard this anywhere before!


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## Faylasoof

hindiurdu said:


> Feels like a vulgarization to me, but a pretty natural one. (Zehn → Zehniiyat) + (Zahiin → Zahiiniyat) + (conflation between them) = this sentence. Looking at the construction and sense of the original sentence, this definitely feels like "military mentality" and not "military intelligence" (Centering attention on national security advantages instead of the people's success/well-being was fundamentally an outgrowth of military thinking). "Intelligence" doesn't work. Your perception may differ, but to me the sentence has an inherent sense of criticism in it. Also, somehow zahiin to me is a more "active" word than 'intelligent'. It implies "intelligent in a positive/thoughtful/deep way". Your mileage might vary.


 Correct, and this suggestion precisely was made above!



Faylasoof said:


> marrish SaaHib, shouldn't the word in question be ذِہْنِیَّت*zihniyyat* / *Zihniyyat*= *mentality*. Of course _*faujii *_*zihniyyat*/ *Zihniyyat** = **military mentality**. *
> ....


I guess you mean the Urdu equivalent of "intelligence" doesn't really work here. I would agree with that but we also need to keep in mind that at times literal translations are attempted from English to Urdu / Hindi etc. More often than not they sound extremely odd and this was one point I had in mind. Just perhaps here was a person attempting to coin a jargon by doing a translation that was almost literal but not quite and in the process tried coining a new word - which, BTW, wasn't making sense to us. 

Besides, as was mentioned above, there is a perfectly good alternative if indeed the term "military intelligence" was meant:




Faylasoof said:


> ... *فوجی* *مخابرات** faujii muxaabaraat*= _military intelligence_. The term _*muxaabaraat *_is used throughout the Middle East for intelligence services. _*.....*_


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## Alfaaz

Faylasoof said:
			
		

> You are right! It doesn't make sense but words not making sense do get used and can even become common!


I had included the whole "thought process" as I wasn't sure about the use of iyyat and iyaat, how meanings would differ, etc. Hope you didn't read and interpret my quoted statement negatively...


> Interesting to note that you too haven't read or heard this anywhere before!


(It is sometimes difficult to determine the meaning of sentences without sound on this forum, but just in case this is a طنزیہ جملہ : ) I would want to clarify that I'm an ordinary human being who certainly doesn't claim to have all the knowledge of the world (جوکہ صرف الله تعالٰی کے پاس ہے). There are members on this forum who are far more well-versed/read in all fields of Urdu in comparison to me. I only replied to this thread because marrish SaaHib wondered if I had heard this word used on TV (Post 15).
or
It might be that this was a مزاحیہ و طنزیہ جملہ politely trying to suggest that one obviously would not have read or heard this anywhere before--because it doesn't even exist (at least in current dictionaries)...!?


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## marrish

Alfaaz SaaHib, your contribution was sought for because I thought this word may have made its way into the media language or the language of youngsters in other programs, of which you are the connoisseur. I'm terribly serious!


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## Alfaaz

marrish said:
			
		

> Alfaaz SaaHib, your contribution was sought for because I thought this word may have made its way into the media language or the language of youngsters in other programs, of which you are the connoisseur.


 Again thanks for the complement, but I'm just a simple observer of surroundings at the most.


			
				marrish said:
			
		

> I'm terribly serious!


I hope you feel better! خدا سب کو صحت اور تندرستی عطا کرے  I seriously didn't doubt you seriousness (and generosity) marrish SaaHib.


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## marrish

Alfaaz said:


> Again thanks for the complement, but I'm just a simple observer of surroundings at the most.
> I hope you feel better! خدا سب کو صحت اور تندرستی عطا کرے  I seriously didn't doubt you seriousness (and generosity) marrish SaaHib.


Thank you for the good wishes!


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> _yeh aap mizaahan farmaa rahe haiN yaa waaqi3an!_



maiN baRii sanjiidagii se 3arz kar rahaa thaa.

I might be mistaken but my understanding is that "zihaanat" (intelligence) is linked to one's mental aptitude and for this reason it is different from the intelligence gathered by civil and military organisations. The latter form of intelligence is no more than gathering of information on persons and/or places.


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> maiN baRii sanjiidagii se 3arz kar rahaa thaa.
> 
> I might be mistaken but my understanding is that "zihaanat" (intelligence) is linked to one's mental aptitude and for this reason it is different from the intelligence gathered by civil and military organisations. The latter form of intelligence is no more than gathering of information on persons and/or places.


 Thank you for the clarification and I agree with the point you make above which is why I proposed that we'd be better off using a different term entirely for military intelligence, viz. *فوجی مخابرات* *faujii muxaabaraat*!



Faylasoof said:


> If the above suggestion is true then I wonder why they didn't opt for *فوجی مخابرات faujii muxaabaraat*= _military intelligence_. The term *muxaabaraat *is used throughout the Middle East for intelligence services. .....


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