# The uses of the particle "ne"



## leenico

It seems to me that the use of “ne” is superfluous. Is it really necessary in the following sentences?

Hai del vino bianco?
No, non ne ho.
Why not “no, non ho?

Volevo delle pesche.
Ne volevo alcune.
Why not “volevo alcune.”

Hai molti vestiti?
Sì, ne ho molti?
Why not “si ho molti?


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## lsp

leenico said:
			
		

> It seems to me that the use of “ne” is superfluous. Is it really necessary in the following sentences?
> 
> Hai del vino bianco?
> No, non ne ho.
> Why not “no, non ho?
> 
> Volevo delle pesche.
> Ne volevo alcune.
> Why not “volevo alcune.”
> 
> Hai molti vestiti?
> Sì, ne ho molti?
> Why not “si ho molti?


If you said in english, "Do you have some wine?" and the response was "I don't have," it would sound strange. This is similar. We would probably say "I don't have *any* (to imply "any *wine*, but we've already specified the object).

Non ne ho = I don't have any (of the previously specified object).

Does that help?


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## Manuel_M

_*ne*_ roughly means *of it * or *of them*. If you were to translate literally from the English 'ne' would indeed be superfluous. But all languages evolve their own quirks, idiosyncracies, nuances and meanings....which is why you can't always translate each word and each meaning directly from one language into another.


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## Manuel_M

Lsp not only beat me to first response to Lee's letter, she also showed that my thoughts on the subject of *ne* were not quite correct, because there is a (partly) equivalent usage in English.


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## Normandy6644

It's something that is generally omitted or understood in English, but absolutely essential in italian.  As Manuel said, I generally like to think of ne as "of it" or "of them."  That generally helps me remember when to use it.  

The other common use I've seen is with "pensare." Example:

Cosa ne pensi?  = What do you think (of it)?

In English, if someone got a new shirt and asked your opinion about it, they might just say "What do you think?" but the "of it" is understood.  In Italian the "of it" part is important and translated as "ne."  I hope that helps a bit. :-D


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## leenico

lsp said:
			
		

> If you said in english, "Do you have some wine?" and the response was "I don't have," it would sound strange. This is similar. We would probably say "I don't have *any* (to imply "any *wine*, but we've already specified the object).
> 
> Non ne ho = I don't have any (of the previously specified object).
> 
> Does that help?


OK then, how would you say "no I don't?" Because that is what I am trying to say w/ "no non ho."


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## Lisa_I

I don't think you can literally say "No, I don't" in Italian, you have to say "No I don't ???" since there is no equivalent of the word "do".


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## lsp

leenico said:
			
		

> OK then, how would you say "no I don't?" Because that is what I am trying to say w/ "no non ho."


You can't think in english and try to translate word for word. "No, non ho" doesn't mean "no I don't." There is no "I do" or "I don't" in italian. "No, non ho" means, "No, I have not/I don't have." You need "ne" in the italian reply.

I, too, think of "ne" as  "of it" or "of them" as was previously stated. Try it, it'll make sense with some practice.

Hai dei libri nella tua stanza?
Si, ne ho tanti.
No, non ne ho neanche uno.


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## leenico

lsp said:
			
		

> You can't think in english and try to translate word for word. "No, non ho" doesn't mean "no I don't." There is no "I do" or "I don't" in italian. "No, non ho" means, "No, I have not/I don't have." You need "ne" in the italian reply.
> 
> I, too, think of "ne" as  "of it" or "of them" as was previously stated. Try it, it'll make sense with some practice.
> 
> Hai dei libri nella tua stanza?
> Si, ne ho tanti.
> No, non ne ho neanche uno.


Ora ne ho capisco.


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## lsp

leenico said:
			
		

> Ora ne ho capisco.


Sorry, but you can't use it in that sentence.


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## Jana337

lsp said:
			
		

> Sorry, but you can't use it in that sentence.



And here's why: You use "ne" only with verbs that are followed by "di" because "ne" is a shortcut for "di + noun/pronoun". 
Capire qualcosa, not capire di qualcosa. If you insist on a pronoun, use lo: Ora lo capisco/ora l'ho capito.

Jana


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## Alfry

there's a difference between 
capire qualcosa - to understand something
and
capirne di qualcosa - to be familiar with

capisci l'italiano? - do you understand/know Italian? 
ne capisci di italiano? - are you familiar with the Italian language?


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## leenico

Io arrandiamo.  lol I know there has to be something wrong w/ this sentence.


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## Lisa_I

leenico said:
			
		

> Io arrandiamo.  lol


Intendi "Sto ridendo"?


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## Artrella

Jana337 said:
			
		

> And here's why: You use "ne" only with verbs that are followed by "di" because "ne" is a shortcut for "di + noun/pronoun".
> Capire qualcosa, not capire di qualcosa. If you insist on a pronoun, use lo: Ora lo capisco/ora l'ho capito.
> 
> Jana




Jana...una domanda maybe OT (if the thread is long I will ask in a new thread)...how do I know which verbs are followed by "di + noun/pronoun"?


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## Artrella

Normandy6644 said:
			
		

> Cosa ne pensi?  = What do you think (of it)?



Can we say "Che ne pensi della storia che ho raccontato?"  In questo caso io dico "ne" sebbene io dico "della storia..."?


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## Normandy6644

Artrella said:
			
		

> Can we say "Che ne pensi della storia che ho raccontato?" In questo caso io dico "ne" sebbene io dico "della storia..."?



I don't believe that the "ne" is necessary in that case since you have specified what you're talking about.  You could have a conversation like this though:

Person 1: Che ne pensi della storia che ho raccontato?
Person 2: Penso che è stata brava.
Person 1: E tu (un'altra persona), cosa ne pensi?
Person 3: Non mi è piaciuta.


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## leenico

Lisa_I said:
			
		

> Intendi "Sto ridendo"?


No I meant that I surrender,  (probably not stated properly). To me, the use of "Ne" is too complicated.


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## leenico

Jana337 said:
			
		

> And here's why: You use "ne" only with verbs that are followed by "di" because "ne" is a shortcut for "di + noun/pronoun".
> Capire qualcosa, not capire di qualcosa. If you insist on a pronoun, use lo: Ora lo capisco/ora l'ho capito.
> 
> Jana


OK, this comes from a grammar book.

Quante stanze hai?
Ne ho tre.

Where does the "di" come in?


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## Lisa_I

leenico said:
			
		

> Quante stanze hai?
> Ne ho tre.
> 
> Where does the "di" come in?


 Ne ho tre. = I have three *of them*.


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## lsp

leenico said:
			
		

> No I meant that I surrender,  (probably not stated properly). To me, the use of "Ne" is too complicated.


You wanted to say, "Mi arrendo. Non *ne* posso più!"


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## Jana337

Artrella said:
			
		

> Jana...una domanda maybe OT (if the thread is long I will ask in a new thread)...how do I know which verbs are followed by "di + noun/pronoun"?



Art, I would think that you are experienced enough (as far as languages are concerned) to feel that you NEVER know with prepositons.  A good dictionary will help.
As a native Spanish speaker, you may be at an advantage. But beware of false friends! 
Start a new thread if you feel like - but a collection of verbs with di will not take us anywhere, I am afraid.

Jana


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## Alfry

Lisa_I said:
			
		

> Ne ho tre. = I have three *of them*.


 
in fact in Italian you could also say
ne ho tre di stanze

just a little example:

a: quante stanze hai? quanti bagni hai e quante persone verranno a farti visita?
b: *di stanze* ne ho tre (ce ne sono 3), *di bagni* ne ho 2 (ce ne sono 2) e mi verranno a trovare 7 amici. Le stanze sono sufficienti ma i bagni credo che non lo siano. ce *ne* vorrebbe proprio un altro (di bagno)!!!


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## Artrella

Jana337 said:
			
		

> Art, I would think that you are experienced enough (as far as languages are concerned) to feel that you NEVER know with prepositons.  A good dictionary will help.
> As a native Spanish speaker, you may be at an advantage. But beware of false friends!
> Start a new thread if you feel like - but a collection of verbs with di will not take us anywhere, I am afraid.
> 
> Jana



   Jana....uffa!!

Grazie cara!!!


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## Artrella

Normandy6644 said:
			
		

> I don't believe that the "ne" is necessary in that case since you have specified what you're talking about.  You could have a conversation like this though:
> 
> Person 1: Che ne pensi della storia che ho raccontato?
> Person 2: Penso che è stata brava.
> Person 1: E tu (un'altra persona), cosa ne pensi?
> Person 3: Non mi è piaciuta.




But Normandy you used "ne" in Person 1 ...


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## Normandy6644

Artrella said:
			
		

> But Normandy you used "ne" in Person 1 ...



Ahh! My bad! That shouldn't be there!  Sorry!  Here's the correct version.


 Person 1: Che pensi della storia che ho raccontato?
 Person 2: Penso che è stata brava.
 Person 1: E tu (un'altra persona), cosa ne pensi?
 Person 3: Non mi è piaciuta.


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## Artrella

Normandy6644 said:
			
		

> Ahh! My bad! That shouldn't be there!  Sorry!  Here's the correct version.
> 
> 
> Person 1: Che pensi della storia che ho raccontato?
> Person 2: Penso che è stata brava.
> Person 1: E tu (un'altra persona), cosa ne pensi?
> Person 3: Non mi è piaciuta.




Grazie Normandy!!


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## leenico

lsp said:
			
		

> You wanted to say, "Mi arrendo. Non *ne* posso più!"


LOL. Non ne il mio giorno.


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## Silvia

Normandy, person 2 doesn't sound right. Brava can be an adjective for a person not for a thing, unless it's used in the sense of adventurous (notte brava), which is not the case in your example. What do you think of the story? I think it was good. Che ne pensi della storia. Penso sia buona. What do you think of the story she told? I think she's good at telling stories. Che ne pensi della storia che ha raccontato? Penso che sia brava a raccontare storie. What do you think of the story I told? I think you're good at telling stories. Che ne pensi della storia che ho raccontato? Penso che tu sia brava a raccontare storie.

Is it clear? 

Also, just a little thought. Lee, it's good to learn those answers with the partitive, but just so you know it, in Italian you don't have to use it, it's not a must like in English. We are free to just say yes and no


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## Lovelybeauty

Ciao,

I need help in understanding the use of "ne" in this sentence: 

"Nell'ora del dolore,
perchè, perchè, Signore,
perchè me _ne _rimuneri così?"

It's from Puccini's Tosca, and I guess the question is roughly translated as: "Why do you reward me this way?". But since there is a "ne", then is it more precise to translate as: "Why do you reward me _for it_ this way?"? If that's true, I wonder what "it" refers to. Could it refer to the whole previous passage:

"Sempre con fè sincera,
la mia preghiera ai santi tabernacoli saì.
Sempre con fè sincera,
diedi fiori agl'altar."

?

In other words, "why do you repay me thus for all my virtuous deeds?" ???

Grazie mille.


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## cercolumi

Lovelybeauty said:


> "why do you repay me thus for all my virtuous deeds?" ???


Ciao LovelyBeauty 
Mi sembra che tu abbia capito perfettamente il senso. Quel "ne" è riferito alle preghiere, ai fiori offerti ed in generale alla rettitudine che sente aver sinceramente ispirato la sua vita.


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## Lovelybeauty

Grazie cercolumi,

How about "ne" in this clause, which is also from Tosca:

"diedi il canto agli astri, al ciel, che _ne_ ridean più belli"?

Firstly I can't find the definition for "ridean" in our dictionary. Some translations say "smile". If so then: "I gave my singing to the stars, the sky, that smile _upon it _more beautifully"? And it refers to her action of "singing to the stars"? 

Grazie ancora


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## cercolumi

"Ridean" starebbe per "ridevano". E' una forma prettamente poetica.
Vuol dire che le stelle e il cielo erano ancor più belli (felici, sorridenti) al sentire il suo canto. Quindi "ne ridevano più belli", ne erano cioè resi più belli, era il canto a renderli così.
Da una traduzione trovata on-line:
_and I gave my song to the stars, to heaven,
which smiled with more beauty.
_


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## Mechelus

If I can...

Most of the times "ne" means "about it/that etc." or "of it/that/them etc.", it's a short form used to not repeat the direct object.



> in fact in Italian you could also say
> ne ho tre di stanze


No, you can't. 
Or better... You can in a colloquial way, but it's not grammatically correct.
You may say:
Ne ho tre (where "ne" take the place of "stanze", the direct object) -  I got three (of them)
or
Ho tre stanze - I have three rooms.

And more:


> Person 1: Che ne pensi della storia che ho raccontato?


In this case "ne" still means "about" even if we still have the direct object (la storia), but it's very colloquial way to speak.

Once again:
I've had enough! (of what? of it, of you, of the course of the life... etc.)
Ne ho abbastanza! same thing. "ne" refers to something precise, and once again it's the direct object.


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## Lovelybeauty

cercolumi said:


> Quindi "ne ridevano più belli", ne erano cioè resi più belli, era il canto a renderli così.



Grazie mille,

I think I understand the general meaning of the phrase now. However, I'm seeking very literal translation to understand how each single word affect the meaning while online translations tend to assume too much liberty. So, without the "ne", "ridevano più belli" would mean "they (the stars and the sky) smiled more beautifully"? And with the "ne", it would be: "they smiled more beautifully _because of/ due to it_ (her song)"? 

Also about the tense, why does imperfetto suddenly replaces passato remoto here? I mean almost the whole aria is written in passato remoto? Shouldn't it be "ne risero più belli"?

Sorry for being fuzzy but "ne" is really very hard to learn and this is very subtle.


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## Giorgio Spizzi

Manu's ".... quirks, idiosyncracies, nuances and meanings...." are the key words here. 

"Dello _spread_ *ne* parliamo dopo", although containing a redundant "ne" (= dello _spread_) (and therefore looked down upon as ungrammatical) is being used more and more frequently in the papers and media.
On the other hand, as has been said quite eloquently above, in "Ne ho cinque" you can't do without the "ne", as there's really no redundancy involved (= I have five of them").

Best.

GS


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## cercolumi

Lovelybeauty said:


> So, without the "ne", "ridevano più belli" would mean "they (the stars and the sky) smiled more beautifully"? And with the "ne", it would be: "they smiled more beautifully _because of/ due to it_ (her song)"?


Si, esatto.


Lovelybeauty said:


> Also about the tense, why does imperfetto suddenly replaces passato remoto here? I mean almost the whole aria is written in passato remoto? Shouldn't it be "ne risero più belli"?


Sono d'accordo con te, ma per quanto ne so "ridean" corrisponde a "ridevano". Forse qualcun'altro vorrà confermare.
Mi sarei aspettato anch'io un "risero" ad una prima lettura. 
Ridevano però è ugualmente corretto, pone l'accendo secondo me sul fatto che mentre lei cantava, al tempo in cui lei era solita cantare, un tempo passato e finito, donava più bellezza al mondo intorno a se che in quei frangenti, ne rideva diventando più bello.
Potrei dirti ad esempio: Durante le canzoni che cantai, la gente sorrideva felice. Quando cantai la gente sorrideva. E' un po' forzato forse ma è pur sempre un libretto operistico.
Non so se la spiegazione sia abbastanza chiara, spero di si 

PS: You're nor fuzzy at all


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## Lovelybeauty

È chiaro ora. 

Grazie a tutti, specialmente cercolumi per la tua buona spiegazione.

Ps: Can someone please link this thread with "ne" on the dictionary? I think it's valuable.


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## MR1492

If I am even close to understanding "ne", I might say "Ne non l'ho capito".  Which I hope means "I didn't understand (any of) it".  

Is that even approximately right? 

Phil


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## cercolumi

Ciao Phil 
Non mi è molto chiaro cosa vuoi dire. Purtroppo "ne non l'ho capito" non ha nessun senso.
Forse "non ne ho capito niente" - "non ho capito niente di quel discorso"
"I didn't understand anything of it/about that speech"
Am I on the right track?


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## MR1492

cercolumi said:


> Ciao Phil
> Non mi è molto chiaro cosa vuoi dire. Purtroppo "ne non l'ho capito" non ha nessun senso.
> Forse "non ne ho capito niente" - "non ho capito niente di quel discorso"
> "I didn't understand anything of it/about that speech"
> Am I on the right track?



Right!  That's what I meant to say.  Looks like I still have much work to do.  Interestingly, I originally thought something like "niete di quel discorso" belonged in the sentence but my English language background makes these apparent double negatives hard to get into my head 

Thank you again for your assistance.

Phil


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## Akire72

MR1492 said:


> If I am even close to understanding "ne", I might say "Ne non l'ho capito". Which I hope means "I didn't understand (any of) it".
> 
> Is that even approximately right?
> 
> Phil



You don't need "ne" here, because you have already "l'ho" in the sentence.

Ne is a "partitive" particle and you use it when you refer to a part of something. Like cercolumi said, if it was "I didn't understand anything of that speech" then ou would use it, but if you'd say 
"I'didn't understand (any of) it"
it would be:
"Non l'ho capito" or "Non ci ho capito nulla".
And this takes us back to another "bestia nera" of the Italian language: the "ci" particle.
Good luck!


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