# Litvinenko poisoned



## Setwale_Charm

I have been looking through the Western media accounts and leaders` declarations on the death of Alexandre Litvinenko, the former Russian FSB (which the press for some obscure reason continue to refer to as KGB although those are not quite one and the same thing) officer in London and this is one of the moments when I start wondering whether we in the West are not becoming much more Soviet than we believe. 
 Amazing how President Putin has immediately become the target of direct accusations and the murder has been ascribed to the "evil forces" in Russia (which probably _are_ behind it but there is no evidence except L`s own theatrical declaration). Even officials are talking of a major attack on liberty on the side of Russia. But I can`t believe that a similar thing can happen in Europe where we have always praised ourselves on democracy and observation of justice and human rights and where presumption of innocence has not yet been abolished as far as I am concerned. 
 I am not talking of the improbability of Putin murdering a journalist or a former FSB officer before each visit to the West, but Litvinenko is portrayed as almost a martyr and a saint and nobody even bothered to look into his antecedents. 
   Don`t you think that in its anti-Putin zeal our leaders and media have long displayed the tendency to venerate and almost canonise the persons, such as Zakayev, Litvinenko or Berezovsky, who are at any rate not in any respect different or better than the diligently demonised Russian authorities? 
  And that is sadly not only the case of Russia, everywhere, from Serbia to Iraq and Pakistan there are so many examples of how political interest overshadowing the sensibility concerning one`s own safety.


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## maxiogee

Britain, and many other countries have routinely demonised their own spies who broke ranks and either worked for the 'enemy' (any other country) or fled to one.
I find ti a strange _game _where all the players constantly denounce the actions of the other players, refuse to comment on the actions of their own, and yet encourage their own 'teams' to try to subvert the citizens of others players.
When they then find that they have a spy int heir midst, one with evil intent they raise a hue and cry and denounce everybody and everything associated with this person. But when one of their own is unmasked it's a different story.

It's a two-faced situation and we know nothing of what actions the states in 'the west' have taken in similar circumstances. They're not all bureaucratic pen-pushers I'm sure. My wonder is with all the agents and counter-agents and double-agents - what value can be placed on 'intelligence' gained and probably more importantly, has it ever been of any benefit to the states which have received it.

Spying is a strange mixture of patriotism. chauvinism and amorality. And people who show such 'qualities' are not really people one should like to have as friends. So Litvinenko (or any citizen) has been spying and now he has broken ranks and denounced his ex-employers - well he knew what to expect, didn't he. He may well have been guilty of the deaths of others in his time. And all for what?

I don't doubt that Putin is the type of statesman who finds it easy to order the deaths of others, but I would be concerned that he would be bothered to, or that he needed to - there are underlings to do that sort of thing without being bidden.


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## cuchuflete

> ...n Europe where we have always praised ourselves on democracy and observation of justice and human rights and where presumption of innocence has not yet been abolished as far as I am concerned.


 Omitting, of course, most twentieth century history?


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## Setwale_Charm

cuchuflete, I said 'praised', not "had"!


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## karuna

Killing someone with radiactive Polonium is very unusual. It looks that the killers wanted to make a strong statement with this method. So, the media reaction is natural and predictable. As for Litvinenko I don't see anyone, except Chechens, trying to award him "sainthood". But nevertheless, everything about this happening is very strange. Who really knows what it is all about?


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## übermönch

I might sound as boring, ignorant 'westerner', but I actually _do _think it wasn't a Chechen/Jewish Oligarch conspiracy against Putin, but his brave elves in FSB. Both people, first Politkovskaya then Litviyenko, hurt the ruling party more living than their death by uncovering many undigestable *facts - *besides it's a clear warning to all the other 'thinkers'. Mind that they did not hold back to _blow up Raduyev & son in a foreign country,_ to shamelessly *murder *_Atgeriyev _and _Yendarbiyev _in jail, removing several democratic principles of R.F. or doing this thing. The ferocities in Chechnya alone clearly uncover the ugly face of current Russian leadership. Recently Putin gave the highest order of honour to the inofficial chechen king, rapist and war criminal Ramzan Kadyrov. I say: It is clear as daylight, mr. Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin is guilty; lead him away! 

if you want to know why, read the links
If you can read Russian, you might want to read the collection of Politkovskaya's articles or another Putin's victim Litviyenko on her murder on google video.

@Setwale Charm
They *are* martyrs. I think the western leaders are actually too tolerant towards Putin, Abdul Aziz and other monsters of that type.


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## Setwale_Charm

Dear Uebermoench,
Some Western ladies, like me, spend the greatest part of their time working in Chechnya and dealing with the "wonderful" Russian authorities. So if you are interested (and this is no irony) I sincerely invite you to come and do the same for a while. 

If you call child-murderers, thieves or simply those ordering assassinations _martyrs_, well, we have different notions of the word altogether. Do I need to tell you about some of the things that Litvinenko did in Chechnya, about his methods of interrogation? Or do you want to have a good sleep? Or maybe tell you about Zakayev`s past and how many mothers owe their grief to him? 

I used to know Politkovskaya and the bunch of her friends here and despite my great grief for her tragic death she was by no means an always objective journalist. She belonged to the clique that was into fighting against the Putin`s regime and wherever she came across some of its crimes she did a great job but, otherwise, she ignored other parties` crimes, she only saw one side, so to speak. This is something I don`t believe in in this life. It is exactly as maxiogee says: they dislose the crimes of others but are no better themselves. And they make a better career in the West because they know that those who really work hard on resolving the trouble in Chechnya or elsewhere (like my Russian colleagues) do not have time to read Western newspapers and would not bother with journalism.

See, what happens in the West today is that people accept everything that Zakayev, Berezovsky, Litvinenko or even Politkovskaya is taken as the Bible and nobody cares to look into their own situation. I am least of all a supporter of Putin in the Chechen war but it is amazing what the Western Media report on that. They are just relying upon the fact that their readers know nothing about Chechnya and will most likely never get there. Take Politkovskaya`s or Litvinenko`s book, for example. Lots of things there just cannot be true because they are not a matter of opinion, they are physical impossibilities, like Politkovskaya makes a deal of mistakes with geographical details which she can`t have been ignorant about. And Litvinenko completely messed up all the chronology in the events. 
What I mean to say is that you cannot fight for the truth be means of lies as brazen as your opponents`. That strategy makes you fall the prey of your own ways sooner or later.


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## Anatoli

The current Western media has been historically extremely anti-Russian, I got used to it and not paying too much attention but I wish to express my opinion as I think it's double standards.

Russian politicians are not perfect and there are problems but blaming the Russian government just because you dislike Russians or just assume that Russia hasn't changed and is still using old KGB methods without caring to prove anything doesn't lead anywhere but only creates more distrust. Political killings are problem for everyone in Russia, including politicians.

Why Chechen terrorists, the child-murderers are called freedom fighters and are given asylum in England but all the other terrorists are called what they are - terrorists? Just because Chechen terrorists kill Russians - women and children? They have taken Westerners hostage but no-one was killed yet, so they are not considered a terrorist organisation?

Who said Kadyrov is a murderer? Is it because he is supporting unity with Russia and expresses the will of the majority of moderate Chechens who voted to be one country with Russia and is not advocating separatism, which would be so nice for the West?

Nobody mentions Russian casualties in WW2 - 27.5 mln but everybody knows the Jewish holocaust (which I am not denying!) - it was genocide against all peoples in the ex-Soviet Union. Nobody talks how much Russia with all other Soviet repulblics contributed to the victory over the Nazi Germany - easy to say Russia was too big and too cold but everybody remembers the Cold War history and what do we see when we read a Western textbook about the WW2 - a brave American soldier crossing the English Channel - not Stalingrad, Moscow, Kursk, Leningrad, Brest Odessa or hundreds of other major battles of WW2, which happened in the East.

I am just one of the weak voices - stop this anti-Russian hysteria, be open-minded. Don't make Khodorkovsky, Litvinenko, Zakayev and Berezovsky heroes, just because they are against the Russian government. There's investigation taking place and let's not make assumptions before there are some findings.


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## ElaineG

> It is exactly as maxiogee says: they dislose the crimes of others but are no better themselves.


 
Are you saying that a journalist is no better than a murderer?

Look, Litvinenko was a spy, and live like a spy, die like a spy...

But Politkovskaya was a journalist.  A society in which journalists are murdered, and the first step the authorities in the investigation is raiding the magazine where she worked and seizing (not copying) all her drafts, is not a free society.  

This comes from Reporters Without Frontiers, a fairly politically independent organization which is not afraid to criticize Western European and, especially, the American goverment (particularly with regard to issues surrounding Iraq):



> Violence against journalists in *Russia* was frequent and impunity prevailed in a country where news is still closely controlled by the government. Two journalists were killed and a third escaped being murdered in 2005. More than a year after the death of editor Paul Klebnikov of the Russian edition of the US magazine Forbes, the authorities closed their investigation and said Chechen independence militant Kozh-Akhmed Nukhayev had ordered the killing. The government steadily took control of all the country’s TV stations and stepped up pressure on the few independent papers, seriously threatening news diversity.


http://www.rsf.org/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=577

The old "look to your own house" first thing that Putin keeps trotting out these days reminds me a little too much of Stalin/Kruschev et al. with their endless babble about ghettos and Indian reservations in the United States.  I'm allowed to criticize my own government, and I'm allowed to criticize his repressive, anti-democratic regime as well.  I don't need to live in a perfect country before I can criticize him.

As for some "Western anti-Russian media bias", I just don't buy it.  My country is bashed in the Western European media far more frequently and for more soundly than Russia is.  But I don't think there's an anti-American bias, just because the media doesn't hesitate to point out my countries' screw-ups.

And I don't know where you get your facts about what we know about WWII, Anatoli, but I remember learning _a lot_ about it the Soviet contribution... the Siege of Leningrad, the Eastern Front, millions of war dead, etc. etc.  

Of course, we also learned about the purges and the gulags.  But I suppose it was anti-Russian bias to throw that in!


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## Setwale_Charm

God forbid, Elaine!! I am not for the moment denying the tragedy which the murder of the journalist was. I am only saying that Politkovskaya was not at all 100% holy and truthful. She was a journalist with her own beliefs and purposes , sometimes great, sometimes carried away but by no means infallible and her articles should not be taken as the voice of pure truth from above.

I agree that it is not so much the "anti-Russian" sentiment as "anti-Putin" sentiment and the KGB stereotypes that are behind this bias. Mind you, I am not for the moment denying the atrocities in Chechnya on both sides and the terrible sides of Putin`s government. I am only saying that we have to be objective and not try to accuse them of all possible sins even those which they evidently had little interest in committing. And, most importantly, *not whitewash* the other side which is no better and has equally as much blood on their hands. Every evildoer is an evildoer whereas when I say that Chechen warlords or people like Berezovsky have so much on their record, or when we compile the crimes of the Chechen separatist against the Russian population in the early 90ies, I often hear that this is "pro-Putin`s propaganda"!!! Justice cannot be one-sided!!


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## Setwale_Charm

uebermoech, if you are really interested in the subject and can read Russian, I would rather recommend reading Tatyana Lokshina`s and Alexandre Cherkassov`s reports on Chechnya, since they are independent human rights` researchers and are not part of any political movement. They are the most objective ones and are really doing their job, not making a name for themselves. I can give the links if anyone is interested.  

 I also disagree with Anatoli on the account of Ramzan Kadyrov. Kadyrov is a most terrible sadistic murderer, torturer and psychopath. I think even many people in the Kremlin administartion are simply frightened of him. I cannot even think of him without shuddering. (Incidentally, a neighbour of mine looks so much like Kadyrov-jr. I don`t think I will stop jumping up when I see him outside smoking). But what we are talking about is that all the crimes of Kadyrov or even Putin do not make Berezovsky, Zakaev or Litvinenko better or more truthful people.


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## ElaineG

Setwale, if you have any sources that you recommend in English, I'd love to know about them -- sadly my rudimentary Russian has entirely evaporated. 

I agree that not much is known about the Chechen situation, at least here in the U.S. First, they were oppressed freedom fighters.

Then the U.S. government made some attempts to insert them into the matrix of global Islamic Al Qaeda-style terrorism, which was picked up to a certain extent by the media, especially after Beslan.

And now? It's too far away and no one really knows where it is, and keeping up diplomatic relations with Russia and its gas and oil is very important from a governmental perspective, so the subject is almost entirely ignored....

I think the Litvinenko story is getting so much play because people love a good spy story. No news coming out of Russia or Chechnya has gotten this much coverage in ages.


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## Setwale_Charm

Elaine, I recommend just typing in the names I mentioned above: Tatyana Lokshina or Alexandr Cherkassov and search for whatever they`ve got in English. ALternatively, you could try their websites :
http://www.demos-center.ru/projects/649C353/
http://www.memo.ru/eng
But there is much less info there. 
They are not the ultimate truth, of course, as long as nobody is. But, at least, they have no political inclinations and do not so much criticise as simply record what they see and what they do. So far I do not know any better experts on Chechnya and the surroundings.

We have tried to translate some printed chronologies of torture and atrocities but stumble over the usual problem: no money.


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## karuna

As you can use a thorn to remove another thorn stucked in your foot, I see no problem using Litvinenko's or Politkovskaya's story. So what, that they were not better than others? No doubt that their late words were dressed up but if there is some truth in their words, why can't we use them. But if not, then direct me to better sources.

I can understand your problem with the ethics, but if we can use information even from bad persons for better future then it is worth it.


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## Setwale_Charm

I can see your point, Karuna, but here it is a question of how far you can trust a person like that who has more than once proven to be ... inaccurate, to put it mildly, if not outright untruthful. This was the case of Litvinenko. All the people of the human rights field and experts, including the most anti-Putinist ones would shun him as he was not very adequate and not quite responsible for his words. Isnt it enough to read his accounts of the interrogations of Presidents Dudayev`s widow to understand that the man is REALLY strange!!! Even if you have never been to Chechnya yourself.... Litvinenko was first seeking contacts with the people here but Cherkassov (whom I mentioned above) sent him right away perceiving what kind of personality he was. He had always been the artistic type, very strange, muddle-headed somehow. I must admit, nobody expected him to die, everybody thought that was just one of his usual tricks in order to draw attention to himself. And we thought so right until he actually died when it became clear that he had been "helped" to it. 
And his address and accusations to Putin...they were so "showy" that it just didn`t sound like a dying person.


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## karuna

The fact that he died proves that our perception that he was a complete clown was false. Maybe it was just his technique to play joker similar to Zhirinovski who is the biggest clown among all Russian politicians, yet he is very intelligent and shrewd person. Not knowing all the previous history, I read his deathbed statement and didn't find anything showy about it. What do you expect a dying person to say?

I value honesty but we all sometimes lie for some reason or another. That doesn't mean that everything we say is false. I don't take his words at face value but then why was he was poisoned? Or do you mean to say that his hatred towards his buddy Putin was so great that he decided to play martyr by poisoning himself? Who knows, not likely but I don't exclude such possibility.


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## Setwale_Charm

No, no, no. I meant we thought he had slightly poisoned himself or imitated that somehow, no doubt he wished no suicide for himself, he was not that type. But he had already tried on several occasions to persuade everybody of the "enormous" danger and plots against him and so we just got "accustomed" to that.
Of course, we all tell lies but not as habitually probably. And my point was that with his way of giving info, mixing it all, putting non-existent facts together...well, we felt we could not rely on such a person. Which, certainly does not justify anybody who murdered him. 
But, to my mind, it looks too crude for a top FSB order. Those guys would organise some petty accident which would surely not lead to an international investigation. They don`t need it, they know far too well, they cannot bribe Scotland Yard as they could do with the Russian police.
The choice of weapon and the whole operation, I don`t know , there is something showy, theatrical about it.


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## karuna

Russia is complete joke by itself. I no longer go there but when I worked there what was going on in relation with the authorities where above my understanding. It lacked any common sense, so I am not surprised about this show. 

If it is done by the FSB then they probably wanted to send a clear message to the world: See, what we can do with those who desert us and we don't give a damn about what you think of us. Litvinenko was just a collateral.

And what are the chances that Scotland Yard will find any leads? Practically nill. It is just one of uncertainties that we will have to live with. To really know what was going on, we need inside story. 

I take only interest in how he died. The death is one of the most important events in the life, and although Litvinenko died quite noteworthy, it was unfortunate that even before his death he couldn't  free his mind from his hatred and was unable ask forgiveness to those whom he had wronged in his life.


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## Setwale_Charm

Well, my point at any rate was that it is shameful the way the Western media, society and in this case even governments reacted to it. They had no proof of Putin`s involvement so far and they went off accusing him of all possible sins and ascribing this particular crime to him and bashing his regime on these grounds only because it is "trendy" to accuse Putin and the Kremlin of that type of thing today. Whether they had their hand in it or not is to be proved by the investigators (if they ever get at it), but this type of hasty reaction in portraying it as "all of that medieval bloody regime" demeans us Westerners before all.


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## Victoria32

Anatoli said:


> The current Western media has been historically extremely anti-Russian, I got used to it and not paying too much attention but I wish to express my opinion as I think it's double standards.
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody mentions Russian casualties in WW2 - 27.5 mln but everybody knows the Jewish holocaust (which I am not denying!) - it was genocide against all peoples in the ex-Soviet Union. Nobody talks how much Russia with all other Soviet repulblics contributed to the victory over the Nazi Germany - easy to say Russia was too big and too cold but everybody remembers the Cold War history and what do we see when we read a Western textbook about the WW2 - a brave American soldier crossing the English Channel - not Stalingrad, Moscow, Kursk, Leningrad, Brest Odessa or hundreds of other major battles of WW2, which happened in the East.


I am just one of the people aware of Russian losses, Anatoli... the history will never be lost, and the sacrifice of the Russian people may not be acknowledged in movies, but it is acknowledged in our memories ...


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## Etcetera

Victoria32 said:


> I am just one of the people aware of Russian losses, Anatoli... the history will never be lost, and the sacrifice of the Russian people may not be acknowledged in movies, but it is acknowledged in our memories ...


Thank you very much for your words, Victoria.


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## karuna

Anatoli said:


> I am just one of the weak voices - stop this anti-Russian hysteria, be open-minded. Don't make Khodorkovsky, Litvinenko, Zakayev and Berezovsky heroes, just because they are against the Russian government. There's investigation taking place and let's not make assumptions before there are some findings.



The problem is that Russian government is not very open with the investigation. And most people in Russian or in other countries alike don't believe in Russian justice. That is one thing that Russia doesn't have – trust. I don't believe that people around me are more anti-Russian than, let's say, anti-American. The only difference is that Russians are much more sensitive to everything critical about them. And also much better in concealing undesirable information.


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## Setwale_Charm

karuna said:


> The problem is that Russian government is not very open with the investigation. And most people in Russian or in other countries alike don't believe in Russian justice. That is one thing that Russia doesn't have – trust. I don't believe that people around me are more anti-Russian than, let's say, anti-American. The only difference is that Russians are much more sensitive to everything critical about them. And also much better in concealing undesirable information.


 

 Agree with Karuna here. That is true for many things, including the WWII crimes on all sides. There is little understandiung somehow that it is first of all in the interests of each side to acknowledge and punish those crimes in order to prevent them from happening in the future.


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## Etcetera

karuna said:


> And most people in Russian or in other countries alike don't believe in Russian justice. That is one thing that Russia doesn't have – trust.


You're right here, Karuna. 
We don't believe in justice here. We don't believe in police. It-s so common to hear something like "Oh yes, I told the policemen about that man who had stolen my purse, but well, you know, they won't do anything". 
A friend of mine moved to Canada. After a week there she said: "Do you know what surprises me most in this country? People aren't _afraid_ of the police, they _respect_ it!"


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