# all Scandinavian: -y in nicknames



## Gavril

Many nickname forms seem to end in -*y* in the Scandinavian languages:_ Magg*y*,_ _Ell*y*_, _Rann*y*_, etc.

From  the little searching I've done, it seems as though the letter "y" in  the Scandinavian languages is usually pronounced like "ü" -- is this  also true of the "-y" in these nicknames?

Was the letter "y" chosen for the spelling  of these names based on a foreign model (cf. _Shell*y*_ < _Michelle_ in English, and _Mand*y* _< _Amanda_ in many European languages), or was there another reason?

Thanks


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## Ben Jamin

Gavril said:


> Many nickname forms seem to end in -*y* in the Scandinavian languages:_ Magg*y*,_ _Ell*y*_, _Rann*y*_, etc.
> 
> From  the little searching I've done, it seems as though the letter "y" in  the Scandinavian languages is usually pronounced like "ü" -- is this  also true of the "-y" in these nicknames?
> 
> Was the letter "y" chosen for the spelling  of these names based on a foreign model (cf. _Shell*y*_ < _Michelle_ in English, and _Mand*y* _< _Amanda_ in many European languages), or was there another reason?
> 
> Thanks


These "nicknames" are loans from English, and they function as independent "official" names (in the passport), not nicknames. However, I am not quite sure about their pronounciation. I think that most people pronounce them as  /ʏ/ (close front rounded), which (at least in Swedish and Norwegian) is not identical with "ü".
It is, however possible, that other people pronounce them wit an /ɪ/ (like in English).
Some older "nicknames", like "Willy" may be loans from German. 
By the way, in Norwegian the most popular names of this type are Harry, Johnny, Ronny (I've never seen "Ranny"), and "Maggy" would rather be spelled as "Maggie".
In Norway and Sweden those names have been used mostly by "the working class", and they disclose a person's social origin. "Harry" is now used as an equivalent of English "tacky".


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## Gavril

Hi Ben Jamin,



Ben Jamin said:


> These "nicknames" are loans from English, and they function as independent "official" names (in the passport), not nicknames.



I don't think _Ranny _(which I've found a few examples of online) can be a loan from English if it is based on _Rannveig_. In Icelandic, the suffix -_ý_ (seemingly of the same origin as Scandinavian -_y_) is widely used for nickname forms of indigenous female names: _Ranný_ < _Rannveig_, _Hrabbý_ < _Hrafnhildur_, _Hillý < Hildur,_ etc.


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## Ben Jamin

Gavril said:


> Hi Ben Jamin,
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think _Ranny _(which I've found a few examples of online) can be a loan from English if it is based on _Rannveig_. In Icelandic, the suffix -_ý_ (seemingly of the same origin as Scandinavian -_y_) is widely used for nickname forms of indigenous female names: _Ranný_ < _Rannveig_, _Hrabbý_ < _Hrafnhildur_, _Hillý < Hildur,_ etc.


My knowledge of Icelandic is minimal, so I can't say anything about this language, but to my knowledge the -y suffix has not been used to form nicknames from native names in Norwegian, Swedish or Danish. All the -y names I know in those languages are loans from English or German.


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## basslop

I have never ever heard Ranny in Norway/Norwegian. I'd like to add that my impression is that the use of such nick names in general are much more widely used in English speaking countries than in Norwegian.


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## AutumnOwl

The -y names in Sweden is more likely to be used as a given name rather than a nickname. Elly was a popular name between 1910 and 1930 in Sweden, but today seldom used. There are 12 Maggy and 4 Ranny in Sweden. Two sites for finding out how many people have a name i Sweden are: http://svenskanamn.alltforforaldrar.se/statistik/sverige and http://www.scb.se/namnsok/

The -y names are, as Ben Jamin mentioned, considered as working class names, maybe even "white trash"-names here in Sweden. 

As for nicknames, it's more likely that it would be a name ending with an -i for women (Anki, Kicki, Sissi, Sussi, Lotti) and an -e for men (Bosse, Kalle, Hasse, Micke, Challe) instead of a -y.


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## Gavril

Thanks to this thread, I learned that Icelandic names such as _Ellý_ and _Maggý_ are also given names (not nicknames), though it is possible they can also function as nickname forms of _Elísabet_, _Margrét_, etc. (Can Icelandic speakers who read this thread clarify whether Ellý/Maggý/etc. can also be nicknames?) 

However, this -_ý_ has been widely extended in Icelandic as a nickname formant for native women's names (_Ranný_, _Hillý_, _Siggý, _etc.), and thus far I don't know of any cases where these nicknames have become given names.


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## NorwegianNYC

There is no Scandinavian tradition for shortening names the way it is done in English. Nor is there a tradition for nicknames (akin to what is found in e.g. USA and Russia). Most names are pronounced in full, and the majority of Scandinavians do not have middle names!


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## MattiasNYC

NorwegianNYC said:


> There is no Scandinavian tradition for shortening names the way it is done in English. Nor is there a tradition for nicknames (akin to what is found in e.g. USA and Russia). Most names are pronounced in full, and the majority of Scandinavians do not have middle names!



Hmmm.... Does that apply to Sweden though? I can't remember a single friend of mine from childhood that doesn't have at least one middle name, several people more than one (including myself with two).

As for a tradition for nicknames I recall "e" being added to names in Swedish. For example:

Jan - Janne
Mattias - Matte
Nicklas - Nicke

Even ones that one wouldn't think would get the "e" version:

Jonas - Jonte
Mikael - Micke
Stefan - Steffe

And I just checked the Wikipedia entry on "smeknamn" and it gives a few examples including the above "e".


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## AutumnOwl

NorwegianNYC said:


> There is no Scandinavian tradition for shortening names the way it is done in English. Nor is there a tradition for nicknames (akin to what is found in e.g. USA and Russia). Most names are pronounced in full, and the majority of Scandinavians do not have middle names!


I have to disagree with this when it comes to Sweden, as it's very common that Hans becomes Hasse, Lars becomes Lasse, Bo becomes Bosse, Ann-Kristin becomes Anki, Charlotte becomes Lotta, Susanne becomes Sussi or Sassa, Kristina/Christina becomes Kicki and so on. 

As for middle names in Sweden, lots of children are getting middle names as double surnames is not allowed here, and if the parents are not married or if both parents have kept their surnames if married, the child get the surname from one parent and the surname of the other parent as their middle name. Add to that that the child can have any number of given names. For example, if princess Estelle of Sweden was to have surnames, her full name would (probably) be Estelle Silvia Ewa Mary Westling Bernadotte.


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## AutumnOwl

Wrong post


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## NorwegianNYC

Well - that is hardly representative. SOME names might be shortened, but it is not the 'rule'


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## MattiasNYC

NorwegianNYC said:


> Well - that is hardly representative. SOME names might be shortened, but it is not the 'rule'



What are you talking about now? It seems two things are getting mixed here; _shortening _names, and _nicknames_. Of course some names aren't shortened since they're already short, like "Lars" or "Bo". They're lengthened instead ("Lasse" and "Bosse"). But they're still nicknames, and that was the point of the original poster I thought.

There is no "rule" of course, just convention, but more than "some" names get nicknames. I'd even bet the vast majority of the more common names do. 

The other Scandinavian languages I know nothing about really.


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## AutumnOwl

NorwegianNYC said:


> Well - that is hardly representative. SOME names might be shortened, but it is not the 'rule'


As for the names Bo, Hans, Lars, Mats the nicknames is longer than the real names. Nicknames may not be used much in Norway but it's common in Sweden, they are used within the family and among friends. A person named Hans may not introduce himself as Hasse when meeting new people, but to his family and friends he might be known as Hasse.


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## Ben Jamin

AutumnOwl said:


> As for middle names in Sweden, lots of children are getting middle names as double surnames is not allowed here, and if the parents are not married or if both parents have kept their surnames if married, the child get the surname from one parent and the surname of the other parent as their middle name. Add to that that the child can have any number of given names. For example, if princess Estelle of Sweden was to have surnames, her full name would (probably) be Estelle Silvia Ewa Mary Westling Bernadotte.



What is the *formal *difference between a *middle name* and *second given name* in Sweden?
They are both given by the parents of the child, aren't they?


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## Ben Jamin

NorwegianNYC said:


> There is no Scandinavian tradition for shortening names the way it is done in English. Nor is there a tradition for nicknames (akin to what is found in e.g. USA and *Russia*). Most names are pronounced in full, and the majority of Scandinavians do not have middle names!



Be careful with mentioning USA and Russia together in this context. Slavic *diminutive names/pet names* (hypokoristics) are very different from *nicknames *used in Anglophone countries.

The Slavic pet names can never become official, they are always reserved for private use. They have usually a diminutive form (sometimes augmentative, sometimes just shortened) and they always define the terms of relation between the "calling person" and the "called person". 

They are not emotionally neutral.

And president Vladimir Putin would never let himself be called "Volodya Putin" in public, unlike Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton.


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## MattiasNYC

Ben Jamin said:


> What is the *formal *difference between a *middle name* and *second given name* in Sweden?
> They are both given by the parents of the child, aren't they?



What is a "second given name" in English? I was under the impression that a person (in Sweden) has only one first/given name, X number of middle names, and a family/surname.


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## raumar

Ben Jamin said:


> What is the *formal *difference between a *middle name* and *second given name* in Sweden?
> They are both given by the parents of the child, aren't they?





MattiasNYC said:


> What is a "second given name" in English? I was under the impression that a person (in Sweden) has only one first/given name, X number of middle names, and a family/surname.



Actually, the situation in Norway, Sweden and Denmark is the same, as far as I know. The difference between middle names and given names is that middle names originally are surnames (and therefore not used as first/given names). For example, if a child gets its father's family name as a surname, the mother's family name often becomes a middle name (or vice versa). See, for example: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_name#Scandinavia


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## mexerica feliz

Ben Jamin said:


> In Norway and Sweden those names have been used mostly by "the working class", and they disclose a person's social origin.




Thank God no ones gives a damn about class differences in Norway and Sweden except for a handful of faux-posh people from Baerum and Lindigö.
For example, Tommy is a common name in Sweden (less so in Norway, but it can be heard, for example: Tommy Fredvang)
and it is by no means a name of ''the poor''. It's more of a middle class name, if you want evoke to class differences (more typical in the UK and India
than in Scandinavia).


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## Ben Jamin

mexerica feliz said:


> Thank God no ones gives a damn about class differences in Norway and Sweden except for a handful of faux-posh people from Baerum and Lindigö.
> For example, Tommy is a common name in Sweden (less so in Norway, but it can be heard, for example: Tommy Fredvang)
> and it is by no means a name of ''the poor''. It's more of a middle class name, if you want evoke to class differences (more typical in the UK and India
> than in Scandinavia).


You are not so well informed. The class differences exist, and they are a problem for many people, even if everybody pretends that they don't care about them. And I am speaking about both differences of financial standing and of being born to a certain class. And they are by no means limited to any particular region of the country.


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## AutumnOwl

MattiasNYC said:


> What is a "second given name" in English? I  was under the impression that a person (in Sweden) has only one  first/given name, X number of middle names, and a  family/surname.


A person in Sweden can have as many given names (förnamn) as the parents  decide to give their child, most people don't have any middle name  (mellannamn) and only one family/surname (efternamn). If a person have  two or more given names then one of them (or sometimes two) are their  "name of address" (tilltalsnamn). It can be the first of their given  names, but not always. (When I meet a patient and see all of their given  names I always ask which is their "name of address" so that I don't  call them by a wrong given name.)

As for middle names in Sweden,  for a child it's the surname of one parent, for example if Anna  Leijonstrand and Mats Ekeberg have a son Adam and he gets his mother's  surname as family name then he can get his father's surname as a middle  name: Adam Ekeberg Leijonstrand. When Anna Leijonstrand and Mats Ekeberg  gets married, Anna can keep her surname and take her husband's surname  as a middle name: Anna Ekeberg Leijonstrand *or* her  husband can keep his surname and take his wife's surname as his middle  name: Mats Leijonstrand Ekeberg. Only one of the spouses can take the  other spouse's surname as a middle name.


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## AutumnOwl

Gavril said:


> Was the letter "y" chosen for the spelling  of these names based on a foreign model (cf. _Shell*y*_ < _Michelle_ in English, and _Mand*y* _< _Amanda_ in many European languages), or was there another reason?


The nickname for Amanda I have heard here in Sweden is Manda, not Mandy. As for Michelle my guess is that the most likely Swedish nickname would be Michan, following the nicknames of Margaretha -> Maggan; Birgitta -> Gittan; Josefin -> Jossan; Victoria -> Vickan.


mexerica feliz said:


> Thank God no ones gives a damn about  class differences in Norway and Sweden except for a handful of faux-posh  people from Baerum and Lindigö.
> For example, Tommy is a common name in Sweden (less so in Norway, but it can be heard, for example: Tommy Fredvang)
> and it is by no means a name of ''the poor''. It's more of a middle  class name, if you want evoke to class differences (more typical in the  UK and India
> than in Scandinavia).


Often when I hear an -y name it gives me associations to this duo: Ronny och Ragge or to Ronny Jönsson.


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## Tjahzi

Regarding the actual question of the topic, it's indeed so that the Scandinavian names ending in _-y_ generally are given names rather than nicknames. Since these/y/ are normally unstressed (and as such short), they are realized as [ʏ] in Norwegian and Swedish and [y] in Danish. The origin, I don't dare to speculate about.

As for the information provided by NorwegianNYC, it's worth keeping in mind that he sees everything from the perception that the Scandinavian languages are really one and that everything that applies to Norwegian as such also applies to Swedish and Danish. Personally, I agree with everything that has been said by MattiasNYC and AutumnOwl regarding Swedish nicknames and middle names (that is, that their presence is a rule rather than an exception).


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## NorwegianNYC

Ben Jamin said:


> Be careful with mentioning USA and Russia together in this context. Slavic *diminutive names/pet names* (hypokoristics) are very different from *nicknames *used in Anglophone countries.
> 
> The Slavic pet names can never become official, they are always reserved for private use. They have usually a diminutive form (sometimes augmentative, sometimes just shortened) and they always define the terms of relation between the "calling person" and the "called person".
> 
> They are not emotionally neutral.
> 
> And president Vladimir Putin would never let himself be called "Volodya Putin" in public, unlike Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton.


You are absolutely right about that, and my intentions were never to equate the American and Russian/Slavic traditions. It was sooner to point out that the tradition for shortening names has never been a Nordic tradition


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## Ben Jamin

Back again to -y names and social class. There is an interesting book "Mitt förnamn är Ronny - berättelsen om en klassresa" by Ronny Ambjörnsson.


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## AutumnOwl

NorwegianNYC said:


> It was sooner to point out that the tradition for shortening names has never been a Nordic tradition


Have you even bothered to read the answers MattiasNYC, Tjahzi and I have given in this thread about names in Sweden, or do you mean that the Swedish custom of nicknames is not true or that Sweden isn't a part of the Nordic countries!


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## NorwegianNYC

AutumnOwl said:


> Have you even bothered to read the answers MattiasNYC, Tjahzi and I have given in this thread about names in Sweden, or do you mean that the Swedish custom of nicknames is not true or that Sweden isn't a part of the Nordic countries!


 Well, it is not a tradition akin to the English and/or Slavic-speaking tradition. It is not given in either Scandinavian language that a name will have a short-form


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## Tjahzi

NorwegianNYC said:


> AutumnOwl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have you even bothered to read the answers MattiasNYC, Tjahzi and I have given in this thread about names in Sweden, or do you mean that the Swedish custom of nicknames is not true or that Sweden isn't a part of the Nordic countries!
> 
> 
> 
> Well, it is not a tradition akin to the English and/or Slavic-speaking tradition. It is not given in either Scandinavian language that a name will have a short-form
Click to expand...

Well, do you still submit to the comments below?


NorwegianNYC said:


> There is no Scandinavian tradition for shortening names the way it is done in English. Nor is there a tradition for nicknames (akin to what is found in e.g. USA and Russia). *Most names are pronounced in full, and the majority of Scandinavians do not have middle names!*


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