# Off/Out: ¿Se pueden ´inventar´ palabras compuestas?



## blasita

My question is not about idiomatic expressions such as _off-the-cuff_ and _out-of-sorts_, but about making-up (?) compound words formed to express the idea of ´_fuera, no, separado de´ o similar_.  These words are usually hyphenated because, I think, the writer (inventor? ) wants to show somehow that it may not be actually a word you could find in a dictionary. 

_Off-shore/Offshore (´costa afuera/fuera, alejado de la costa´).  Off-street/Offstreet parking (´aparcamiento fuera de la calle´).  Off-peak hours (´fuera de las horas punta´)._  (You can find/not find hyphens between prefixes and roots, and I think over time they tend to be dropped.)

*BUT!* Just some examples (please note that my question is not about these examples in particular but more general, and that translations are meant to be just an idea to discuss about the grammar, not the best possible ones.):

_Off-supermarket car park/parking lot_ (´aparcamiento de fuera del supermercado´). _Off-trip excursion_ (´excursión no incluida en el viaje, off como extra´). _Off-/out-of-place amenities_ (´servicios/instalaciones fuera del lugar que sea).  _Out-of-the-city-centre bus_ (´autobús que va por fuera del centro de la ciudad´).  

Is it right/common to make such words, at least informally, if they don´t exist?  I would not say them, but I have heard some of them, especially when someone cannot find the right word. No creo que se haga esto en español, ¿no, amigos foreros? ¿Sería aceptable en inglés?

Thank you.  All contributions of all foreros are welcome.

Saludos.


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## Sharifa345

The examples definitely would not work. Ni puedo pensar en mi propio ejemplo donde esta estructura sería aceptable si no fuera una frase verdadera.


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## inib

Hi Blasita,
I can't say that I've heard any of your examples, but that's not surprising because you've just invented them, haven't you? I think you are right that we sometimes make up this type of combination when we can't think of the right word,and when we are talking to someone familiar. When I'm talking to my Mum, I also make up words like "uncleanable" and I once told her the screen on my mobile was "mirrory" because I couldn't I couldn't think of "reflective"!!! Of course, I wouldn't want anyone on WR to know this. (BIG GRIN).
I know my examples don't include_ off_ or _out of_, but I think it may be much the same thing. Definitely NOT recommendable!


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## Irma2011

blasita said:


> My question is not about idiomatic expressions such as _off-the-cuff_ and _out-of-sorts_, but about making-up (?) compound words formed to express the idea of ´_fuera, no, separado de´ o similar_. These words are usually hyphenated because, I think, the writer (inventor?





blasita said:


> ) wants to show somehow that it may not be actually a word you could find in a dictionary.
> 
> _Off-shore/Offshore (´costa afuera/fuera, alejado de la costa´). Off-street/Offstreet parking (´aparcamiento fuera de la calle´). Off-peak hours (´fuera de las horas punta´)._ (You can find/not find hyphens between prefixes and roots, and I think over time they tend to be dropped.)
> 
> *BUT!* Just some examples (please note that my question is not about these examples in particular but more general, and that translations are meant to be just an idea to discuss about the grammar, not the best possible ones.):
> 
> _Off-supermarket car park/parking lot_ (´aparcamiento de fuera del supermercado´). _Off-trip excursion_ (´excursión no incluida en el viaje, off como extra´). _Off-/out-of-place amenities_ (´servicios/instalaciones fuera del lugar que sea). _Out-of-the-city-centre bus_ (´autobús que va por fuera del centro de la ciudad´).
> 
> Is it right/common to make such words, at least informally, if they don´t exist? I would not say them, but I have heard some of them, especially when someone cannot find the right word. No creo que se haga esto en español, ¿no, amigos foreros? ¿Sería aceptable en inglés?
> 
> Thank you. All contributions of all foreros are welcome.
> 
> Saludos.


 
¡La pregunta del millón! Supongo que con ella quieres insinuar que a los no-nativos nos da la impresión de que en inglés se están siempre inventando construcciones, que hacen los‘_arreglos’_ que convienen a las necesidades de cada caso y momento. Y, al menos en contraste con otros idiomas, el español por ejemplo, pienso que esto es verdad y también una gran virtud, a mi entender, siempre que las ‘variaciones sobre el mismo tema’ no hagan ininteligible o malsonante lo que se está ‘creando’ (me están saliendo términos muy musicales, pero es que el inglés es una lengua muy musical). Es esa maravillosa flexibilidad de este idioma y uno, supongo, de los muchos elementos que ya lo han convertido en la lengua universal.

Siempre recuerdo las contestaciones que me daba un catedrático de una facultad inglesa de Lenguas Modernas a mi eterna pregunta: 
-_¿Se puede decir in inglés bla, bla, bla…..?_
_-En inglés se puede decir absolutamente todo. _
La cuestión es ¿podemos los no nativos aprender esta habilidad? Creo que no.
Lo nuestro, ya se sabe, es 'que inventen ellos'.


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## blasita

> The examples definitely would not work. Ni puedo pensar en mi propio ejemplo donde esta estructura sería aceptable si no fuera una frase verdadera.



Muchas gracias por tu respuesta, Sharifa.

I apologise if this seems stupid, but I have definitely heard also something like: _out-of-the-road bar; most-out-of-hand application_.  But they could have been just slips. By the way, I have tried to focus only on ´off´ and  ´out´, but it is not only about these two; it is the fact of making adjectives out of preposition/s and nouns (and sometimes articles too).



> Hi Blasita,
> I can't say that I've heard any of your examples, but that's not surprising because you've just invented them, haven't you? I think you are right that we sometimes make up this type of combination when we can't think of the right word,and when we are talking to someone familiar. When I'm talking to my Mum, I also make up words like "uncleanable" and I once told her the screen on my mobile was "mirrory" because I couldn't I couldn't think of "reflective"!!! Of course, I wouldn't want anyone on WR to know this. (BIG GRIN).
> I know my examples don't include off or out of, but I think it may be much the same thing. Definitely NOT recommendable!



Hi Inib.  Thanks very much for your contribution: very interesting .

I haven´t invented them; I remember hearing them/very similar ones . I actually do what you say in Spanish sometimes (don´t tell anybody ), but actually only making up words for fun and/or when talking to someone familiar as you said, not actually this way.



> ¡La pregunta del millón! Supongo que con ella quieres insinuar que a los no-nativos nos da la impresión de que en inglés se están siempre inventando construcciones, que hacen los‘arreglos’ que convienen a las necesidades de cada caso y momento. Y, al menos en contraste con otros idiomas, el español por ejemplo, pienso que esto es verdad y también una gran virtud, a mi entender, siempre que las ‘variaciones sobre el mismo tema’ no hagan ininteligible o malsonante lo que se está ‘creando’ (me están saliendo términos muy musicales, pero es que el inglés es una lengua muy musical). Es esa maravillosa flexibilidad de este idioma y uno, supongo, de los muchos elementos que ya lo han convertido en la lengua universal.



Muchas gracias por tu aporte, Irma.  No, lo siento si he dado esa impresión, realmente yo no quería insinuar eso: no creo que en inglés se inventen continuamente expresiones y demás. Pero sí que es un hecho probado para mí que en este caso se forman adjetivos que no están en ningún diccionario.

Totalmente de acuerdo en que el inglés es un idioma de lo más musical y flexible (aunque el nuestro tampoco está nada mal ).

Gracias, y saludos a todos .


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## donbill

blasita,

I'm been trying for two days to invent something to contribute to this thread, but I can't! But it is easy in English. We can string together all sorts of elements to make adjectives.

out-of-body experience
near-death experience
off-the-wall question
an out-of-it look on your face
behind-the-back shot
over-the-shoulder-through-the-open-door view of the next room


It seems to me that you can do it easily with verbs in Spanish. I once told a group of students that we were going to try to be like my friend don Ramón, _que íbamos a donramonizarnos_. (¡Qué barbaridad, ¿no? It's my understanding that all invented verbs are first conjugation. Are there exceptions?)

Saludos


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## blasita

> blasita,
> 
> I'm been trying for two days to invent something to contribute to this thread, but I can't! But it is easy in English. We can string together all sorts of elements to make adjectives.
> 
> out-of-body experience
> near-death experience
> off-the-wall question
> an out-of-it look on your face
> behind-the-back shot
> over-the-shoulder-through-the-open-door view of the next room
> 
> 
> It seems to me that you can do it easily with verbs in Spanish. I once told a group of students that we were going to try to be like my friend don Ramón, que íbamos a donramonizarnos. (¡Qué barbaridad, ¿no? It's my understanding that all invented verbs are first conjugation. Are there exceptions?)



Thanks very much for your contribution, donbill.

So, you make them sometimes, but if non-native speakers/somebody learning the language made one, would it sound so good as yours/would it be understood??

I love the _donramonizarnos_.  I´m not sure I´d make such invented verbs in Spanish (haven´t got your imagination ) But sometimes I say ´_no veo tres en un pimiento_´  instead of ´_en un burro_´;  _iba redespepitada/se superdespepitó_ (´despepitado/a´ es una palabra que me encanta y la cambio; incluso creé un hilo en el foro de español sobre ella). (_Please for all reading this, this is not correct.)_

Un saludo.

Edit: Could you do it with all kind of words/Are all combinations okay?


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## inib

blasita said:


> *BUT!* Just some examples (please note that my question is not about these examples in particular but more general, and that translations are meant to be just an idea to discuss about the grammar, not the best possible ones.):
> 
> _Off-supermarket car park/parking lot_ (´aparcamiento de fuera del supermercado´). _Off-trip excursion_ (´excursión no incluida en el viaje, off como extra´). _Off-/out-of-place amenities_ (´servicios/instalaciones fuera del lugar que sea). _Out-of-the-city-centre bus_ (´autobús que va por fuera del centro de la ciudad´).
> 
> Is it right/common to make such words, at least informally, if they don´t exist?
> 
> Thank you. All contributions of all foreros are welcome.
> 
> Saludos.


Hello again,
I've been giving this some more thought. Apart from the examples Donbill has come up with, there are many combinations such as _after-hours drinking, out-of-school activities, out-of-town supermarket, over-sixties club_ etc. These are widely used and accepted, but I imagine someone invented them one day. I can't find the following in the dictionary (I haven't searched very thoroughly, though), but I'm sure I would be understood if I said I was going to have _an after-class drink with my adult pupils, an after-dinner nap_ or even if I said I'd heard _an on-and-off noise_, meaning an intermittent one.
I think we *do* have the scope to make up some words, but your bus example sounded very awkward because it was so long.
(PS: And we all know about _off-topic_ discussions!!! I wonder who made that one up!)


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## sound shift

Yes, I agree that someone must have invented the examples that we use, such as "off-balance sheet accounting" and "off-invoice business", so presumably the process goes on and more such combinations will appear.


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## inib

sound shift said:


> Yes, I agree that someone must have invented the examples that we use, such as "off-balance sheet accounting" and "off-invoice business", so presumably the process goes on and more such combinations will appear.


I wish I had your ability to be so clear and concise.


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## blasita

Thank you Inib and Sound Shift. 

The fact is that all your examples are in my dictionary. Sorry to insist, but examples like donbill´s:

_an out-of-it look on your face
over-the-shoulder-through-the-open-door view of the next room_

Would you actually say something like this (i.e. they are not in any dictionary, and are made out of preps, nouns, articles and pronouns)? These are the ones that puzzle me.

Gracias. Saludos.


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## sound shift

I can imagine myself saying "You had an out-of-it look on your face."
I can't really imagine myself using the one about the shoulder, the door and the rest of it: By the time I had reached the end of it, I would have forgotten what the beginning was about!  Some people will have a greater capacity for this type of thing, though.


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## blasita

> I can imagine myself saying "You had an out-of-it look on your face."
> I can't imagine myself using the one about the shoulder, the door and the rest of it: By the time I reached the end of it, I would have forgotten what the beginning was about! Some people will have a greater capacity for this type of thing, though.



Well, I´m afraid I´m not one of those. Thank you very much, Sound Shift.

To sum up, I think all the foreros agree that some shorter ones would be possible and used in some contexts even though they may not be included in a reference book?

If you all agree on this, the problem would be then to know how to make and (esp) interpret them as they don´t come as naturally to me (and sure to many others). 

Un saludo.


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## donbill

sound shift said:


> I can imagine myself saying "You had an out-of-it look on your face."
> I can't really imagine myself using the one about the shoulder, the door and the rest of it: By the time I had reached the end of it, I would have forgotten what the beginning was about!  Some people will have a greater capacity for this type of thing, though.



I'll have to agree with you, sound shift. My_ over-the-shoulder-through-the-open-door view_ is a bit extreme. I can't imagine anyone actually saying it! It was for instructional purposes only. It should be used only by professionals.


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## inib

Quote/The fact is that all your examples are in my dictionary/Quote
Blasita, what dictionary is that?


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## blasita

> Blasita, what dictionary is that?



I´ve got a few; Cambridge, Oxford, Merriam-Webster, etc.  Ah! Of course, the WR Dictionary!  And also some of AmE, idioms, etc. Sorry, inib, not only one, but maybe too many .

I really appreciate everyone´s help here.  So (_todo el mundo ya sabe que soy una verdadera pesada, lo siento_), would you actually take a prep, a noun, an article, a pronoun to make an adjective?

Saludos.


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## inib

blasita said:


> I´ve got a few; Cambridge, Oxford, Merriam-Webster, etc. Ah! Of course, the WR Dictionary!  And also some of AmE, idioms, etc. Sorry, inib, not only one, but maybe too many





blasita said:


> .
> 
> I really appreciate everyone´s help here. So (_todo el mundo ya sabe que soy una verdadera pesada, lo siento_), would you actually take a prep, a noun, an article, a pronoun to make an adjective?
> 
> Saludos.


I only checked WR, that's why I said it wasn't a thorough search. You already know my answer: I would, in certain circumstances ( I just haven't been able to come up with an original one today).


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## donbill

blasita said:


> Yes, I would; but I can't do it now because I have a *before-beginning-my-next-class* commitment that keeps me from doing it!


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## The Prof

I think that what usually leads to these 'inventions' is that we become accustomed to certain expressions, then decide to use them as adjectives when we feel like it.  
_I'm out of here - he left with an (I'm) out-of-here look on his face._
_He looks out of it - he has an out-of-it look._

And so on!


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## Irma2011

blasita said:


> I´ve got a few; Cambridge, Oxford, Merriam-Webster, etc. Ah! Of course, the WR Dictionary!  And also some of AmE, idioms, etc. Sorry, inib, not only one, but maybe too many .
> 
> I really appreciate everyone´s help here. So (_todo el mundo ya sabe que soy una verdadera pesada, lo siento_), would you actually take a prep, a noun, an article, a pronoun to make an adjective?
> 
> Saludos.


 
Yo creo, blasita, que los angloparlantes no se dan cuenta de lo naturalmente que hacen juegos malabares con el idioma. Basta leer un periódico o una revista para encontrar muchísimas de estas 'creaciones'. Pero tienen que salir sobre la marcha, supongo. Donbill te acaba de dar un buen ejemplo ahora mismo. Los españoles tenemos ese campo mucho más restringido, como ya has dicho.

Saludos a todos


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## blasita

> I just haven't been able to come up with an original one today).



Well, sure you will come up with a brilliant one, Inib . But in the meanwhile, you could borrow my ´bus´ one : I actually heard it from a native speaker at a hotel some time ago. But now I think he was being ´funny´.



> I can't do it now because I have a before-beginning-my-next-class commitment .* Have a good one!*





> I think that what usually leads to these 'inventions' is that we become accustomed to certain expressions, then decide to use them as adjectives when we feel like it.* Thank you for your contribution, The Prof.*





> Los españoles tenemos ese campo mucho más restringido, como ya has dicho. *Un saludo *



Me quiero morir, nunca lo conseguiré .  Yo creo que deberíamos intentar hacer lo mismo en español y luchar , ¿no te parece, Irma/no os parece? 

Thank you to all of you again.


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## capitas

I think that all of us have the ability to make up words-expressions, and agree with all of you that it is more usual in English than in Spanish.
Don Bill, my brother-in-law's name is Gregorio, and we like to tell my sister (his wife) that "se ha gregorizado (1ª conjugation, of course).
The longest example of making-up words in Spanish is the well known tongue-twister
"el arzobispo de Constantinopla quiere desarzobispoconstantinopolizarse"
In languaje history, there have been lots of made-up words, some on purpose (azafata), and some others which simply a person said it ,it was accepted and everyone used it (extraescolares-permanencias-


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## inib

Irma tiene razón en lo de los periódicos, especialmente los titulares.


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## Irma2011

inib said:


> Irma tiene razón en lo de los periódicos, especialmente los titulares.


 
Me alegro de que lo confirmes, inib, porque, como no puede ser de otra manera, vuestras opiniones son la que valen, aunque a veces los nativos no analicen su lenguaje como hacemos los demás.

Estuve pensando en este asunto y se me pasó por la cabeza que, a lo mejor, muy a lo mejor, la entonación del inglés, con su isocronía acentual frente la isocronía silábica del español, unido a la anteposición de los adjetivos al sustantivo (en este hilo se hablaba fundamentlamente de adjetivos) y su relevancia acentual, pueden tener algo que ver en este fenómeno.

Una absoluta tontería, seguro, pero es como un 'flash' que me viene a la mente cuando me encuentro con estas cosas. Lástima no tener tiempo ni talento para investigarlas.

Saludos a todos


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## inib

Irma2011 said:


> Me alegro de que lo confirmes, inib, porque, como no puede ser de otra manera, vuestras opiniones son la que valen, aunque a veces los nativos no analicen su lenguaje como hacemos los demás.
> 
> Estuve pensando en este asunto y se me pasó por la cabeza que, a lo mejor, muy a lo mejor, la entonación del inglés, con su isocronía acentual frente la isocronía silábica del español, unido a la anteposición de los adjetivos al sustantivo (en este hilo se hablaba fundamentlamente de adjetivos) y su relevancia acentual, pueden tener algo que ver en este fenómeno.
> 
> Una absoluta tontería, seguro, pero es como un 'flash' que me viene a la mente cuando me encuentro con estas cosas. Lástima no tener tiempo ni talento para investigarlas.
> 
> Saludos a todos


 Seguro que tienes razón, Irma, pero me temo que apenas he entendido una palabra de lo que dices. Bueno, la "anteposición" sí. ¿_Isocronía = equal-timing_ o algo así_? (_lo he adivinado por sus componentes).
Luego lo investigaré.
De todas formas, te confieso que casi nunca abordo el tema de entonación en mis clases - me limito a la sílaba tónica de las palabras individuales. Creo que a niveles bajos e intermedios, es algo que se aprende mejor escuchando que analizando. Sin embargo, por mi propia curiosidad, me propongo aprender más sobre el tema. Gracias por darme el empujón.


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## blasita

> Estuve pensando en este asunto y se me pasó por la cabeza que, a lo mejor, muy a lo mejor, la entonación del inglés, con su isocronía acentual frente la isocronía silábica del español, unido a la anteposición de los adjetivos al sustantivo (en este hilo se hablaba fundamentlamente de adjetivos) y su relevancia acentual, pueden tener algo que ver en este fenómeno.
> 
> Una absoluta tontería, seguro, pero es como un 'flash' que me viene a la mente cuando me encuentro con estas cosas. Lástima no tener tiempo ni talento para investigarlas.



Con lo de tiempo no me meto, pero con lo de talento, estoy en total desacuerdo, Irma.

Supongo que depende del periódico que sea; los más serios tienden a evitarlo, creo.  Yo lo he visto mucho en esta clase de revistas: _women´s magazines_.

Lo de la anteposición permanente de los adjetivos al sustantivo desde luego que puede propiciar a ello.  Con referencia a la pronunciación, no sé, tendría que pensar en ello más detenidamente. Todo esto es muy interesante.  En la práctica, lo que creo que ocurre simplemente es que son dos idiomas diferentes.

Si consideramos la última idea de donbill: ¿vosotros diríais en español algo como: _mi antes-de-empezar-la-próxima-clase obligación_? Pues no lo creo, pero quizás: _mi obligación de antes-de-empezar-la-próxima-clase_ (?), pero claro, aquí no creo que haya invención alguna.

Inib: _Isochrony is the idea that a language rhythmically divides time into equal portions._ 

Saludos.


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## Irma2011

Admiro tu rapidez y tu capacidad, blasita, para tratar casi simultáneamente los numerosos temas que aquí se debaten.
Pero eso no se contagia, asi que nos conformaremos con lo que hay.


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## inib

I've just heard another one (no prepositions or adverbs this time, modals and verbs for a change). In the Bangles' song "Manic Monday", Sunday is "my I-don't-have-to-run day".


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## blasita

> Admiro tu rapidez y tu capacidad, blasita, para tratar casi simultáneamente los numerosos temas que aquí se tratan.
> Pero eso no se contagia, asi que nos conformaremos con lo que hay.



Bueno, lo tomo como un piropo, gracias . Pero los que sabéis sois vosotros. Rapidez y eficacia no son sinónimos (y además no es que sea nada rápida).



> I've just heard another one (no prepositions or adverbs this time, modals and verbs for a change). In the Bangles' song "Manic Monday", Sunday is "my I-don't-have-to-run day".



Lovely, Inib .

Well, I´m off; have to get into class. I´d like to thank everybody for your brilliant ideas and contributions. You´re great .


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## Irma2011

blasita said:


> Well, I´m off; have to get into class. I´d like to thank everybody for your brilliant ideas and contributions. You´re great .


 
So it's your I-have-to-run day, I guess.


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