# EN: le zeugma est-il grammaticalement correct en anglais ?



## geve

Peut-on utiliser dans une phrase, un même mot mais dans des sens différents ? 
Exemple : "warm" = chaud (température), mais aussi chaleureux. Donc, est-ce que je peux écrire :

(pour quelqu'un partant vivre en Irlande) 
_I hope Irish people and weather will be warm_

ça ne me paraît pas tout à fait correct...

Merci


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## claude123

D'après ce que j'ai appris à l'école, le zeugma est une liaison illicite, mais une liaison grammaticale, non pas un jeu de mots sémantique, comme dans votre exemple, qui ressemble plutôt à une plaisanterie.

Le zeugma s'est arrogé pour fonction de rattacher à un adjectif ou à un verbe non seulement les mots qui s'y unissent normalement, en toute légitimité, mais encore des termes ou des membres de phrases qui ne s'y joignent que par abus.

Exemple: nous savons qu'on dit entrer DANS un endroit, mais sortir D'un endroit. Pourtant nous voyons des expressions comme "_Les navires doivent entrer et sortir DU port_". Ainsi, entrer, dans cette tournure vicieuse, se faufile là où il n'a que faire et forme un ménage à trois. 

C'est un reste du temps passé, qui s'obstine à survivre. Les écrivains du grand siècle, en effet, jouissaient de beaucoup plus de liberté:
_Les vers lyriques accompagnent ou répondent à la flûte _ (Racine)
_Conservez toujours une santé qui réjouit et donne de l'espérance à tout notre sang _ (Sévigné)

Si donc vous voulez jouer sur le double sens de certains mots, il me semble que c'est une question de sens, pas de grammaire.


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## sophievm

I have here a book whose title is "A Handbook of Literary Terms", I quote:

ZEUGMA - Two nouns governed by the same verb with a difference in meaning and with one of the two links grammatically incorrect.
e.g. He was watched and his friend followed. (instead of "were followed")
But it is often used as a synonym of syllepsis.

SYLLEPSIS - A construction in which one word has parallel grammatical relationships to two words - but with different meanings.
e.g. I give Pimp as my father's family name, on the authority of his tombstone and my sister... (Charles Dickens)


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## Kelly B

Sophie's dictionary definition of the English zeugma agrees with the on-site English dictionary definition, in which the example is very similar to geve's original example. So I think that _sort _of usage is ok, and is used as a gentle joke.

However, in geve's example, the English is a little awkward, and fixing it loses some of the fun of the original:

I hope _the _Irish people and _the Irish_ weather will be warm.


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## Brioche

http://www.wunderland.com/WTS/Alison/lexophilia/sub-things/zeugma.html

here a zeugma is defined as "_the use of a word to modify or govern two or more words, usu. in such a manner that it applies to each in a different sense, or makes sense with only one._"

There are several examples on the page. I particularly like those from Flanders and Swan.


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## geve

Thank you for all your answers !

So this would mean that, in both languages, zeugma (as the term is commonly used) has both a gramatically correct use (=syllepsis / syllepse en français) and an incorrect one.

I always feel proud when I can introduce a zeugma in a conversation and I appreciate examples in English ! But it is difficult to joke in a foreign language...

Does that sound better ?
_Have a good trip to Ireland, I hope the weather and the people will be warm 

Good luck in Ireland, I'm sure you'll find warm weather and people_

or any suggestion sounding less awkward !


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## Kelly B

I like your first version quite a lot!
In the second, it is not clear that warm applies to people - it sounds like I hope you will find people - well, of course you will.


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## geve

Thank you KellyB ! 

I see what you mean with the second sentence. It could have been worse : _you'll find warm people and weather..._


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## renaudr

Hello,
I don't find clear if "Have a good trip to Ireland, I hope the weather and the people will be warm " is correct or not?


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## timpeac

For me it is correct, but only as a "jokey" comment.


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## renaudr

I picked those too:
The farmers in the valley grew potatoes, peanuts, and bored. (the best!)
She opened the door and   her heart to the orphan.   
The addict kicked the   habit and then the bucket.   
My point would be to know if, apart from the "jokey" aspect they are correct?
In french you are not allowed to mix a material character and an immaterial one in a "zeugme".
"Il vivait d'amour et d'eau fraîche" is not allowed.


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## itka

Geve, j'ai l'impression que ce qui s'appelle "zeugma" en anglais ne correspond pas à notre définition du zeugma. En français, c'est une figure de style, librement choisie, pour produire un effet : _"Il a pris un café et un train"._

Les intervenants semblent n'y voir qu'un jeu de mot et pour eux, le "zeugma" correspond à ce que nous appelons une "anacoluthe"... c'est-à-dire le même genre de rapprochement insolite, mais portant sur le plan syntaxique.

Je crois qu'il vaut mieux oublier les mots techniques et en rester à des exemples (comme le tien) pour savoir si ces figures sont possibles ou non en anglais...


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## timpeac

I don't know Itka - I think we can use it the same way - "he took his time and her honour" for example.

I find "I hope the Irish people and weather will be warm" perfectly acceptable (albeit light-hearted). Ps I think the addition of the "the" is necessary.

A famous example of what I think you're referring to in English, which is not the same thing, is "eats shoots and leaves" which can refer to an animal which eats "shoots and leaves" or someone who first eats then shoots then leaves (the middle one being a sexual reference).


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## dicomec

I think that's an excellent, well-turned phrase.  Clever.  Perhaps you might say, I hope* both* the weather and the people will be warm.


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## itka

renaudr said:


> In french you are not allowed to mix a material character and an immaterial one in a "zeugme".
> "Il vivait d'amour et d'eau fraîche" is not allowed.



Mais où tu as vu ça, renaudr ?

Voici quelques exemples de zeugmas  :
_Il a battu sa femme, la campagne et monnaie
J’ai jeté mon trognon de pomme, un œil, l’éponge et le doute
Il rendit un sourire, un jugement, et le dernier soupir.
Il a tourné à droite, casaque et de l’œil.
Le même jour il fit sa déclaration d’indépendance, d’impôt et d’amour.
Il était tombé de l’escalier, sous le sens et sous le charme
_http://www.obni.net/dotclear/index.php?2005/03/03/321-zeugma... et le plus célèbre de tous :_"Vêtu de probité candide et de lin blanc" _(Hugo)
http://www.echolalie.org/wiki/index.php?ListeDeZeugmes

J'aime bien aussi ceux qui sont cités en anglais dans le présent fil :
_ "he took his time and her honour" _
_"The farmers in the valley grew potatoes, peanuts, and bored"..._


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## geve

itka said:


> Je crois qu'il vaut mieux oublier les mots techniques et en rester à des exemples (comme le tien) pour savoir si ces figures sont possibles ou non en anglais...


T'as raison Itka. Je ne sais pas ce qui m'a pris ce jour-là de lancer des mots savants comme ça - à ma décharge c'était il y a deux ans déjà, j'étais jeune et insensée.  Aujourd'hui ça ne m'arriverait plus de lancer un fil qui finirait dans le forum "grammaire" !!


renaudr said:


> In french you are not allowed to mix a material character and an immaterial one in a "zeugme".
> "Il vivait d'amour et d'eau fraîche" is not allowed.


Who says?  Risque-t-on donc d'être arrêté, à vivre d'amour et d'eau fraîche ?


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## JDnCoke

timpeac said:


> I don't know Itka - I think we can use it the same way - "he took his time and her honour" for example.
> 
> I find "I hope the Irish people and weather will be warm" perfectly acceptable (albeit light-hearted). Ps I think the addition of the "the" is necessary.
> 
> A famous example of what I think you're referring to in English, which is not the same thing, is "eats shoots and leaves" which can refer to an animal which eats "shoots and leaves" or someone who first eats then shoots then leaves (the middle one being a sexual reference).



I appreciate that this is very, very late, but the thread interested me greatly.

"Eats shoots and leaves" is not an ancoluthon, which is a sentence or construction that lacks grammatical sequence:
_while in the garden, the door banged shut._

The important thing about the shoots and leaves construction is the comma, and it is the eponymous title of Lynne Truss's very famous grammatical diatribe:

"Eats shoots and leaves" means an animal that eats shoots (i.e. bamboo) and (tree) leaves.

"Eats*,* shoots and leaves" means that someone enters a building (a pub perhaps?), sits down to eat, gets up and shoots everyone, and then proceeds to leave.

Fascinating how one just one piece of punctuation so radically alters the meaning of the sentence: out of context of course.


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## Keith Bradford

This is an interesting debate on what is "allowed" in our two languages.  I won't comment on French, but in English zeugmas are allowed, widespread, and they bring a welcome pleasure to the day.  Anyone who wants to deprive me of them will have to take them from my cold, dead mouth.

Vive le zeugma !


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## timpeac

But only allowed if you're deliberately going for a jokey tone, surely? You wouldn't expect to see "The Irish people and weather were warm" in an official report, for example, would you?


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## JDnCoke

You probably wouldn't find that specific comment in an official report because it's a generalisation, but something like:

"Both Tony Blair's speech and his dossier were sexed-up"

At least, I wouldn't have a problem with it.


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## timpeac

That would be fine because "sexed up" describes a speech and a dossier in exactly the same way, unlike "warm" which means friendly for people and not cold for weather.

In other words, it's not a zeugma as I understand it.


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## Keith Bradford

timpeac said:


> But only allowed if you're deliberately going for a jokey tone, surely? You wouldn't expect to see "The Irish people and weather were warm" in an official report, for example, would you?


 
It's *exactly* the kind of comment I'd expect on most BBC Radio 4 news reports, but many Whitehall bureaucrats might avoid it.


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## timpeac

But expect because a light-hearted tone is intended, surely? Would you expect it in a serious written report or essay, which otherwise has no jokes in it?


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## Keith Bradford

Sorry, I don't read stuff with no jokes in it.


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## timpeac

Well, it's not always appropriate. You wouldn't expect a news report to say "the child was taken by a stranger and surprise".


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