# Genitive



## Spharadi

Merhaba !

Ben Türkçe oğreniyorum ama, hâlâ bazı halile güçlüğüm var.
In English: I'm learning Turkish but I still have some difficulties with the genitiv. (Please correct my Turkish).

My tries:

field of gardens :   bahçelerin tarlayı  (an odd sentence but just for practice sake)
gardens of flowers : çiceklerin bahçeleri
flower vase  : çiceğin vaseyi
fields of flowers: çiceklerin tarlaları

I'm not sure if these genitiv constructions are right.

Thank you very much for your help 
Şimdiden teşşekürler


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## diriltici

In English: I'm learning Turkish but I still have some difficulties with the genitiv.
In Turkish: Ben Türkçe öğreniyorum ama hala iyelik ile ilgili sorunlarım var.      (the genetiv= iyelik)

1) field of gardens :   bahçelerin tarlayı  (an odd sentence but just for practice sake)
for this example, this translation is a little bit wrong. 
_correct one:_ bahçelerin tarla*s*ı 

2) gardens of flowers : çiçeklerin bahçeleri 
this one correct.

3) flower vase  : çiceğin vaseyi
if I didnt understand wrong from your english, your turkish is wrong. 
_it should be:_ çiçeğin vazo*su*

4) fields of flowers: çiceklerin tarlaları
totally correct.


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## Spharadi

Thank you very much for your help!


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## diriltici

not at all.

actually, the subject that you have problems is quite easy. there are  just some certain rules and this genitive stuff based on these rules.  let me explain:

İsim tamlaması (possessive construction)
this structure consists of two nouns and linked each other depending upon some precise rules.

Rule 1: First noun always gets one of these affixes depends on vocal harmony:
_affixes:_ -ın , -in , -un , -ün

Rule 2: If first noun ends with a vowel, then between the vowel  and the affix, it comes one of these letters which calls blending  letters:
_blending letters:_ y ,  ş ,  s ,  n      

Rule 3: second noun always states a part of first noun. Also, second noun gets one of these affixes depends on vocal harmony:
_affixes:_ -ı , -i , -u , -ü

Rule 4: Like rule 2, if second noun ends with a vowel, then between the vowel  and the affix, it comes one of the blending  letters:
_blending letters:_ y ,  ş ,  s ,  n

Example 1:
-->edge of pencil = kalem-*in* kenar-*ı
*first noun= kalem (pencil)
second noun= kenar (edge)

Example 2:
--> tongue of the cat = ked_i_-*n*-*in *dil-*i* 
first noun: ked_i_ (cat)
 second noun= dil (tongue)
(observe that first noun ends with a vowel *i* which cause to get a blending letter *-n*)


Example 3: 
--> part of the computer: bilgisayar-*ın* parç_a_-*s*-*ı*
first noun: bilgisayar (computer)
  second noun= parç_a_ (part)
(second noun ends with a vowel *a* which cause to get a blending letter *-s*)


Example 4:
--> knob of the iron: üt_ü_-*n*-*ün* düğm_e_-*s*-*i*
first noun: üt_ü_ (iron)
   second noun= düğm_e_ (knob)
( both first and second noun ends with a vowel 
for first noun, ending vowel= *ü*  and following blending letter *-n*
for second noun, ending vowel= *e*  , following blending letter *-s* )


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## Luminista

diriltici said:


> not at all.
> 
> actually, the subject that you have problems is quite easy. there are just some certain rules and this genitive stuff based on these rules. let me explain:
> 
> İsim tamlaması (possessive construction)
> this structure consists of two nouns and linked each other depending upon some precise rules.
> 
> Rule 1: First noun always gets one of these affixes depends on vocal harmony:
> _affixes:_ -ın , -in , -un , -ün
> 
> Rule 2: If first noun ends with a vowel, then between the vowel and the affix, it comes one of these letters which calls blending letters:
> _blending letters:_ y , ş , s , n
> 
> Rule 3: second noun always states a part of first noun. Also, second noun gets one of these affixes depends on vocal harmony:
> _affixes:_ -ı , -i , -u , -ü
> 
> Rule 4: Like rule 2, if second noun ends with a vowel, then between the vowel and the affix, it comes one of the blending letters:
> _blending letters:_ y , ş , s , n
> 
> Example 1:
> -->edge of pencil = kalem-*in* kenar-*ı*
> first noun= kalem (pencil)
> second noun= kenar (edge)
> 
> Example 2:
> --> tongue of the cat = ked_i_-*n*-*in *dil-*i*
> first noun: ked_i_ (cat)
> second noun= dil (tongue)
> (observe that first noun ends with a vowel *i* which cause to get a blending letter *-n*)
> 
> 
> Example 3:
> --> part of the computer: bilgisayar-*ın* parç_a_-*s*-*ı*
> first noun: bilgisayar (computer)
> second noun= parç_a_ (part)
> (second noun ends with a vowel *a* which cause to get a blending letter *-s*)
> 
> 
> Example 4:
> --> knob of the iron: üt_ü_-*n*-*ün* düğm_e_-*s*-*i*
> first noun: üt_ü_ (iron)
> second noun= düğm_e_ (knob)
> ( both first and second noun ends with a vowel
> for first noun, ending vowel= *ü* and following blending letter *-n*
> for second noun, ending vowel= *e* , following blending letter *-s* )


 
Merhaba,

You should be a very good teacher!

Your explanations are very clear! As the member who created this thread, I have some problems to understand all this.

Thanks a lot for this lesson!


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## diriltici

i thank you, luminista. 
im glad if i could help.


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## Spharadi

I agree with luminista. Your explanations are comprehensive and precise. What else could one ask for?
Teşşekürler, thank you, gracias, toda raba.


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## Binapesi

If you use it in the "*çiçeklerin tarlaları"* way, then it kinda has a meaning like *the field belongs to the flowers*, like "Ali'nin tarlası" (which the field belongs to Ali).
Saying "*çiçek tarlaları*" is way better in these situations since it would give a meaning like *the field is made from flowers* which is exactly what we mean. I'm not very good with grammar terms, sorry.


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## Rallino

I just want to add one thing. For this specific grammatical concept, as "blending consonants" only "n" and "s" are used.


When the nouns end in vowels: First noun always recives the "n", second noun always receives the "s".

Ex:
Luminista'-*n*-ın soru-*s*-u
(The question of Luminista=Luminista's question)

_Diriltici_ has already explained this far.

*BUT:*

There are two exceptions:* Su* (water) and *Ne* (what)

To say:* the colour of water* we should say: *Sunun rengi*. This is what happens according to the rule. But we don't say it like that, we add a "y" instead:

Su-*y*-un rengi

Also the question word "ne" receives a _y_.

Bu ne-*y*-in kablosu ? = This is the cable of what (thing)?


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## Spharadi

There is another class of genitiv in compound words (A+B) where only the second element (B) gets a suffix. For ex.: şehir planı (street map); altın saat (golden watch); yemek listesi (menu). 
Now, how do you say "school bus"?
okulun otobüsü or okul otobüsü ? 
and train departures?
trenin hareketi or tren hareketi ?

thank you very much to you all!


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## Rallino

Spharadi said:


> There is another class of genitiv in compound words (A+B) where only the second element (B) gets a suffix. For ex.: şehir planı (street map); altın saat (golden watch); yemek listesi (menu).
> Now, how do you say "school bus"?
> okulun otobüsü or okul otobüsü ?
> and train departures?
> trenin hareketi or tren hareketi ?
> 
> thank you very much to you all!



altın saat is not a genitive, it's an "adjective + noun", that's it.

Usually, the form:* A-nın B-si* is translated to English, as: *the B of A*

Like: Lokantanın menüsü = The menu of the restaurant.

The form: *A B-si*, however, is translated to English, as: *the A B*

Like: 

Okul otobüsü = the school bus
*Tren Hareketleri = Train departures

_

*Though, in train stations, you're likely to see: Tren Hareket Saatleri = Train Departure Hours._


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## Spharadi

Thank you.  I think I understand now. There are three ways of building compound expressions.
1. A + B without suffixes like *altin saat*, golden watch (a watch made of gold); *Kadıköy*  (kadı = judge and köy = village) is a proper name (a neighborhood in Istanbul).
2. A'ın, in  + B'si or ı,i like *Türkye'nin şehirleri* (the cities of Turkey)
3. A + B'si or i,ı like *yemek listesi*, *öğle yemeği*, *dünya haberleri*. 
In this last case the elements of the expression should not be separated, because they are understood as a unity.   

It was a great help. Teşşekürler. 
The Turkish language is a real challenge (at least for non-linguists like me)!


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## Rallino

Spharadi said:


> Thank you.  I think I understand now. There are three ways of building compound expressions.
> 1. A + B without suffixes like *altin saat*, golden watch (a watch made of gold); *Kadıköy*  (kadı = judge and köy = village) is a proper name (a neighborhood in Istanbul).
> 2. A'ın, in  + B'si or ı,i like *Türkye'nin şehirleri* (the cities of Turkey)
> 3. A + B'si or i,ı like *yemek listesi*, *öğle yemeği*, *dünya haberleri*.
> In this last case the elements of the expression should not be separated, because they are understood as a unity.
> 
> It was a great help. Teşşekürler.
> The Turkish language is a real challenge (at least for non-linguists like me)!



Yep. And one more thing. Be careful for when you add an adjective.

for example:

Ev kapısı = the house door
Evin kapısı = the door of the house

I'm adding an adjective:

*Mavi ev kapısı*, here, the door is blue.

but in the phrase:

*Mavi evin kapısı*, it's the house that is blue.


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## yavuzotar

I would like to add one or two points to Rallino's excellent explanation in the hope that the issue can be clarified a bit more.

In Turkish there is no 'explicit' definite and indefinite article as there is "the" and "a/an" in English. But it exists implicitly in the qualifier of the word group. Example:
"kapı sap-ı" = door handle; here the noun, "kapı",  automatically assumes the quality of an adjective and becomes the qualifier of "sap" (plus the genitive suffix "-ı"). It is just a door handle, any door's handle.

"kapı-nın sap-ı", on the other hand is "the handle of THE door"; that is a specific (previously talked about, previously mentioned, known) door's handle. In this case "kapı-" is not an adjective, it remains a noun.

In the same way "balta sapı" is "axe handle", balta (axe) turns itself into an an adjective here to qualify "sap". But "baltanın sapı" is a handle belonging to the specific axe we have been talking about (The handle of the axe)


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## Spharadi

Thank you very much to you all for these useful and clear explanations.


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