# Where did the "vehem" word disappear?



## franknagy

Hi Everybody,
There is a small group of Hungarain nouns which not only lose a short vowel during agglutination but two of their consonants changes place.

The Nominative pattern is C1-V1-C2-V2-C3, 
the aggluinated pattern is 
C1-V1-C3-C2-V2-S
where
Ci-s are consonants, Vj-s are vowels, S is a suffix.
C2∊{h}, 
C3∊{ly, r},
S∊{k,n,s,t}.

The class has smaller count of element than the -мя ending neuter nouns in Russian.

Kehely [chalice] -> kelyhek, kelyhen, kelyhes [branch of Husites], kelyhet.
Pehely [flake] -> pelyhek, pelyhen, pelyhes [fluffy], pelyhet. 
Teher  [load] -> terhek, terhen, terhes [pregnant], terhet.
*Bolyh          -> bélbolyhok [fuzzy part of the internal surface of inestines absorbing the nutritive matter], ?, bolyhos, ?.
*Vehem        -> ?, vemhes [pregnant big aimal, like cow].

It is very interesting that the the above two base forms maked with asterisk have disappeared.

Regards
   Frank


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## Olivier0

+ moholy / molyhos
-- Olivier


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## Zsanna

It is not surprising if words disappear from a language.  (But it is a bit too wide as a topic to discuss here in details.)

V_ehemencia_ and _vehemens_ however still exist. (See MÉSZ dictionary.) 
So do _bolyh,_ _bolyhos, bolyhoz _and_ bolyhosodik_.


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## franknagy

Hi Zsanna,


Zsanna said:


> V_ehemencia_ and _vehemens_ however still exist. (See MÉSZ dictionary.)
> So do _bolyh,_ _bolyhos, bolyhoz _and_ bolyhosodik_.



Please send me an example sentence, where _"bolyh"_ is in Singular Nominative Case.

"V_ehemencia_ and _vehemens" _are words whose Latin original form are casual matching with the postulated Hungarian _"*vehem"_  word. Just like the "delírium trémens" is similar to the "franciakrémes".

I think you have know quite a few English and Hungarian words with the same spelling but very far meaning.

Ha-ha: the above sentence contained an example: FAR.
More ones: ELEVEN, TAR ...

Regards
     Frank.


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## Zsanna

I found some use for "vehem" e.g. this*:
"A vemhesség 30. napján a méh átmérője kb. 3 cm, ezután azonban a testmérettől és a vehem méretétől függően már jelentős méretbeli eltérések lesznek." 
(Budafoki Állatgyógyászati oldal) but nothing about its origins.

Bolyh exists in the above mentioned Értelmező Szótár and also here (online Etimológiai szótár, in our Resources Sticky) but apparently it is exclusively used the Plural (and the form "boholy" is not known). This is why it is impossible to provide an example in the Singular with it and fairly easy in the Plural. (E.g. A bolyhok eltávolítása nem mindig könnyű feladat.)

May I ask what you mean by "I think you have know quite a few English and Hungarians words with the same spelling but very far meaning."? (I don't think _vehemens_ and _vemhes_ are homonyms...)

*Although I have found usage for "vehem" (with Google) but what it actually means... In the Hungarian Corpus there is no trace of it - which is not a good sign.


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## francisgranada

1. Vemhes - as far as I know (agreeing with what has already been told before), _vemhes _has nothing to do with _vehemens_. _Vehemens _is a Latin active participle, apparnently a derivate from the verb _vehere _(to carry, bear etc.).   
2. Teher -borrowing from German (tracht).  The original Hungarian stem is *terh-*.
3. Kehely - borrownig from Slavic (kalich) or Althochdeutch (kelich), finaly from Latin (calix), borrowing from Greek (kylix) The original Hungarian stem is *kelyh-*.
4. Pehely - of Hungarian origin. _Pelyh_- seems to be a secondary stem (probably by analogy with _kelyh_-)
5. Bolyhos - unknown origin. The stem _bolyh_- seems to be a secondary stem (probably by analogy with _kelyh_-), even if _boholy _(in singular) is not attested.


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## franknagy

Zsanna said:


> I found some use for "vehem" e.g. this*:
> "A vemhesség 30. napján a méh átmérője kb. 3 cm, ezután azonban a testmérettől és a vehem méretétől függően már jelentős méretbeli eltérések lesznek."
> (Budafoki Állatgyógyászati oldal) but nothing about its origins.
> 
> Bolyh exists in the above mentioned Értelmező Szótár and also here (online Etimológiai szótár, in our Resources Sticky) but apparently it is exclusively used the Plural (and the form "boholy" is not known). This is why it is impossible to provide an example in the Singular with it and fairly easy in the Plural. (E.g. A bolyhok eltávolítása nem mindig könnyű feladat.)
> 
> May I ask what you mean by "I think you have know quite a few English and Hungarians words with the same spelling but very far meaning."? (I don't think _vehemens_ and _vemhes_ are homonyms...)
> 
> *Although I have found usage for "vehem" (with Google) but what it actually means... In the Hungarian Corpus there is no trace of it - which is not a good sign.





francisgranada said:


> 1. Vemhes - as far as I know (agreeing with what has already been told before), _vemhes _has nothing to do with _vehemens_. _Vehemens _is a Latin active participle, apparnently a derivate from the verb _vehere _(to carry, bear etc.).
> 2. Teher -borrowing from German (tracht).  The original Hungarian stem is *terh-*.
> 3. Kehely - borrownig from Slavic (kalich) or Althochdeutch (kelich), finaly from Latin (calix), borrowing from Greek (kylix) The original Hungarian stem is *kelyh-*.
> 4. Pehely - of Hungarian origin. _Pelyh_- seems to be a secondary stem (probably by analogy with _kelyh_-)
> 5. Bolyhos - unknown origin. The stem _bolyh_- seems to be a secondary stem (probably by analogy with _kelyh_-), even if _boholy _(in singular) is not attested.



Hi,
The veterinaly example for vehem was very good.
It very interesting that you have found an exclusively plural Hungarian word: bolyhok.

I remembered "tereh" (sic!) from the verse of J. Arany. I thought the he used it to get rhyme.


> Vadat és halat, s mi jó falat
> Szem-szájnak ingere,
> Sürgő csoport, száz szolga hord,
> Hogy nézni is tereh;


This http://antalvali.com/comment/40151/tereh-szo-valodi-jelentese
website states that "tereh"=happiness is opposite of "teher"=load.

Regards
Frank


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## marczy

I know SIX words of this stem type. It is good to know that NONE of the base forms did completely disappear.

1. *pehely* > pelyhes: 'flake' > 'fluffy'
2. *kehely* > kelyhes: 'chalice' > 'calixtine' (belonging or related to the moderate branch of the Hussites)
3. *teher* > terhes 'load/burden' > 'pregnant' (woman)
4. *vehem* > vemhes 'contents of the uterus of a pregnant animal i.e. foetus+placenta' > 'pregnant' (animal)
The base form is used by veterinarians.
5. *boholy* > bolyhos: boholy 'villus' (bélboholy 'intestinal villus') > 'villous'
e.g. the composite word 'bélboholy' is used by doctors, even in singular, so not even the word 'boholy' can be regarded as an exclusively plural word.
6. *moholy* > molyhos 'pubescence' > 'covered with pubescence', the base form is used mostly by botanists.
e.g. molyhos tölgy (Quercus pubescens) = 'downy/pubescent oak'

The same morphologic transformation is applied when adding accusative, plural, possessive (or superessive: -n/-on/-en/-ön) suffixes.
(pehely > pelyhet (acc.), pelyhek (pl.), pelyhe (poss. Sg/3.) etc. or boholy > bolyhot (acc.), bolyhok (pl.), bolyha (poss. Sg. 3.)

There are probably no more words of this type.


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## Zsanna

Hello marczy and welcome to our forum!

Unfortunately, you started off here with a bit of an unhappy thread (on the verge of being out of the scope of the forum and against our rules) and I think we have already found an answer to frank's question(s?). We are definitely not allowed to "collect" words, make lists and draw theoretical conclusions here (that can start off debates that lead nowhere).

*As a moderator I would just like to remind everybody that giving lists of words is against our rules + out of the scope of this forum so please do not do it. Everything against the rules will be deleted.*


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