# He told me to stay here until he returns



## Abu Talha

Usually, the English verb "to tell" is expressed commonly by قال, حدث, كلم/تكلم, depending on context, in Standard Arabic but I don't see how any of these would be used in the sentence, "He told me to stay here until he returns."

I guess I could say أمَرَني بالبقاء هنا حتى يعود but it sounds too strong.

Should I say قال لي أن أبقى هنا حتى يعود ? It sounds a little strange.
Furthermore, they say أن يفعل can be replaced with the مصدر but it sounds even more strange if I did that: قال لي البقاء/بقائي هنا حتى يعود.

Is there a standard, idiomatic way of saying this?

Thank you.


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## katrena

قال لي أن أبقى هنا حتى يعود


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## إسكندراني

It doesn't sound strange, and it's how we usually say it.


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## Abu Talha

I see. Thank you both.


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## Abu Talha

As an after thought, could I also say قال لي بالبقاء هنا حتى يعود ?

I'm trying to think of a maSdar variant.


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## إسكندراني

No. I don't think there is one. Though you could say أوصاني بالبقاء, that has a different meaning.


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## Abu Talha

Thanks إسكندراني.


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## lukebeadgcf

طلب منّي البقاء هنا حتّى يعود perhaps?


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## زرقاء اليمامة

lukebeadgcf said:


> طلب منّي البقاء هنا حتّى يعود perhaps?



*Yes** *


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## no9ronaldo

Oh daee, what a nice thread from you!
Having been learning MSA for more than two years, I just never knew how to say such an elementary phrase in MSA until the very moment I found this thread!

It seems that most of the grammar books and dictionaries haven't really realised this usage of أنْ. 
If "قال لفلان أن يفعل" is exactly a corresponding translation of "tell(told) sb to do sth", then أنْ here, will differ from all those usages written in the grammar books (at least in my own reading history).

It differs from the usual أنْ مصدر, which can always, as daee have said, be replaced with the مصدر;
it also differs from the أنْ تفسير, which means "أي", "i.e.",":", etc., and this usage can be found in the Quran 23:27 {فَأَوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْهِ أَنِ اصْنَعِ الْفُلْكَ}.


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## Abu Talha

Hello Ronaldo,
Thanks for bringing this up again and for your reference to the Quran 23:27. I wonder if you could explain, or refer me to a tafsir that analyzes this verse grammatically. I checked a couple of tafsirs but did not find much.

I searched in hadiths and narrations for the phrase, "he told me to do such-and-such" but most of what I found was direct speech, e.g., قال لي افعل كذا وكذا.

Here, however, is one example of قال لي أن أفعل كذا وكذا :


> قُلْتُ لأَبِي عَبْدِ اللهِ : إِنَّ ابْنَ شَدَّادٍ يُرِيدُ الْخُرُوجَ إِلَى الثَّغْرِ ، وَقَدْ قَالَ لِي أَنْ أَسْأَلَكَ


I did find one interesting usage of the jussive in the hadith of Ibrahim عليه السلام visiting his son Ismaa3iil عليه السلام in Makkah after he had grown up:


> قَالَ فَإِذَا جَاءَ زَوْجُكِ فَاقْرَئِى عَلَيْهِ السَّلاَمَ ، وَقُولِى لَهُ يُغَيِّرْ عَتَبَةَ بَابِهِ . فَلَمَّا جَاءَ إِسْمَاعِيلُ ، كَأَنَّهُ آنَسَ شَيْئًا ، فَقَالَ هَلْ جَاءَكُمْ مِنْ أَحَدٍ قَالَتْ نَعَمْ ، جَاءَنَا شَيْخٌ كَذَا وَكَذَا ، فَسَأَلَنَا عَنْكَ فَأَخْبَرْتُهُ ، وَسَأَلَنِى كَيْفَ عَيْشُنَا فَأَخْبَرْتُهُ أَنَّا فِى جَهْدٍ وَشِدَّةٍ . قَالَ فَهَلْ أَوْصَاكِ بِشَىْءٍ قَالَتْ نَعَمْ ، أَمَرَنِى أَنْ أَقْرَأَ عَلَيْكَ السَّلاَمَ، وَيَقُولُ غَيِّرْ عَتَبَةَ بَابِكَ .


أَمَرَنِى أَنْ أَقْرَأَ عَلَيْكَ السَّلاَمَ is indirect reported speech using the verb أَمَرَ
وَيَقُولُ غَيِّرْ عَتَبَةَ بَابِكَ is direct speech
but here is the interesting one:  وَقُولِى لَهُ يُغَيِّرْ عَتَبَةَ بَابِهِ where it seems the jussive is used.


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## no9ronaldo

daee said:


> Thanks for bringing this up again and for your reference to the Quran 23:27. I wonder if you could explain, or refer me to a tafsir that analyzes this verse grammatically. I checked a couple of tafsirs but did not find much.
> 
> I searched in hadiths and narrations for the phrase, "he told me to do such-and-such" but most of what I found was direct speech, e.g., قال لي افعل كذا وكذا.


the أنْ in Quran 23:27, or more generally speaking in the phrase "قال لفلان أنْ افعلْ كذا", just seems to function as a colon mark ":", as a quite lot of English translations of Quran have shown (http://www.islamitexts.org/?noar=&t=10&k=23:27), in other words, the أنْ makes the phrase a direct speech. That's all the grammatical analysis I think I may give.

====
and back to our topic of this thread, I have more understanding about the phrase "قال لفلان أنْ يفعلْ كذا".
I believe that you've already noticed, that in this phrase in this usage, قال is in fact a milder version of أمر, thus it's no great wonder that they can share one or more phrases.

Specifically here we can make a clear list:
a. أمر فلان أن يفعلْ → shared with قال 
b.أمر فلان "المصدر" → somehow not shared 
c. أمر فلان بأن يفعلْ →  somehow not shared 
d. أمر فلان ب"المصدر" → somehow not shared 

Moreover, different from what I previously assumed, we can thus regard the أنْ in "قال لفلان أنْ يفعلْ كذا" as the usual "أنْ مصدر".

====


daee said:


> but here is the interesting one: وَقُولِى لَهُ يُغَيِّرْ عَتَبَةَ بَابِهِ where it seems the jussive is used.


Yeah, indeed interesting, but daee, think about the phrase دعْ فلاناً يفعلْ, then it's easier to understand why the jussive is used here — similar meaning, same phrase/usage!


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## Abu Talha

no9ronaldo said:


> Yeah, indeed interesting, but daee, think about the phrase دعْ فلاناً يفعلْ, then it's easier to understand why the jussive is used here — similar meaning, same phrase/usage!


Yes, that is a good parallel. Thanks for your insight.


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## Abu Talha

Just some more information I came across. Muhammad al-Adnani in his معجم الأغلاط اللغوية المعاصرة says:





> خطّأ الشيخُ إبراهيمُ اليازجيُّ من يقول: قلتُ له أنْ يَفْعَلَ، وقال إنّ الصواب هو: قلتُ له لِيَفْعَلْ (بلام الأمر)، أو: قلت له يَفْعَلُ أو يَفْعَلْ، اعتمادًا على قولٍ للنُّحاة يمنع وقوع (أَنْ) بعد لفظ القول.
> ولكن ... «يبدو أن تخطئة اليازجي بُنِيَتْ على أساس قولهم كونَ (أَنْ) هنا مُفَسِّرةً، وبالموازنة بين أقوال النحاة في (أن) المفسِّرة، يَتَبَيَّنُ أنّ بينهم خِلافًا في وقوعها بعد القول: فمنهم مَن أجازه ومنهم من منع.
> «ولكن (أَنْ) في التعبير الذي توجَّهَتْ عليه التخطئةُ ليست هي المفسرةَ، بدليلِ أنّ المستعمِلَ له ينصِبُ ما بعدَها، فلا يخطرُ له أن يقول: قلتُ لهما أن يفعلانِ، ولا قلتُ لهم أن يفعلونَ ... بل هي مصدريةٌ، والمصدرُ المُؤَوَّلُ إمّا بَدَلٌ مِن مَقُولٍ مُقَدَّرٍ، أو مجرورٌ بالباء المحذوفة. ... ولهاذا ... لا حرج فيه على متحدث أو كاتب.»


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## إسكندراني

In Egyptian, we say قلت له يفعل and never قلت له أن يفعل so I guess we abide by the rules that writer put forward!


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## Abu Talha

Interesting. Iskenderani, do you also say
قال لي أَفْعَلْ كذا He told me to do such-and-such. (فعل مضارع مجزوم)
or is it always
قال لي افْعَلْ كذا He said to me, "Do such-and-such!" (فعل أمر)
Is the former okay, strange, or just plain wrong? Thanks.


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## إسكندراني

The first is more common, but we use both


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## Schem

I usually translate English "to tell" to "إخبار" in Arabic. So the sentence here would be "أخبرني بالبقاء هنا حتى يعود".


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## Abu Talha

إسكندراني said:


> The first is more common, but we use both


Thanks for the reply, Iskenderani. It struck me that the first option  could then be ambiguous:

قال لي أَبْقَ هنا حتى يعود.
a. He told me to stay here until he comes back.
b. He said to me, "*I'll* stay here until he (some third person) comes back."

Do you agree that it could be ambiguous, in the absence of context?


Schem said:


> I usually translate English "to tell" to "إخبار" in Arabic. So the sentence here would be "أخبرني بالبقاء هنا حتى يعود".


Thanks for your reply, Schem. I was under the impression that إخبار meant "to tell" when some information is being relayed, and can then also be translated as "to inform." So it is also used when "told" is used as a mild form of "ordered"?


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## إسكندراني

For case b. one would usually say (in MSA) قال لي سأَبْقى هنا حتى يعود. But you're right, it is ambiguous in writing. Intonation is important.


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## Abu Talha

Thanks, Iskenderani!


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## Schem

daee said:


> So it is also used when "told" is used as a mild form of "ordered"?



Yes, from my experience.


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## Paterimon

May I propose that a Senior Member with a long experience in teaching ِArabic
kindly sort out the suggestions offered by the participants, then recommend
the form that is most commonly used?
A clear distinction must be made between classical usage (قال لي أنِ ابقَ) which is too literary
and the Modern Standard Arabic (قال لي أنْ أبقى ) which is most likely to be used nowadays.


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## koukeye

If you see that "أمر" is too strong then you can easily say: طلب منّي البقاء حتّى أعود


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## Paterimon

A good alternative. 
Some grammarians prefer  طلب إليّ  instead of  طلب منّي, although the latter is frequently used.


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## koukeye

طلب إليّ means سألني أن which means "ask me for" so it is more than just telling and the register is higher. As for قال لي أن أبقَ it is not true so it is sure قال لي أن أبقى and it sounds as a good translation


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## إسكندراني

I think he means أن ابق like the Qur'anic أن اضرب


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## Paterimon

Right اسكندراني
That's what I mean.


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