# pronunciation of "chs"



## James Bates

I have read that the combination "chs" is pronounced like the English "x", e.g. "sechs" (meaning "six"). However, I have been listening to Pimsleur German, and in it a speaker does not pronounce the "chs" in "nächstes" (as in "nächstes Jahr") as "x". Could a native speaker help me out please?


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## EvilWillow

I don't have a German pronunciation dictionary at hand, but I hear "nächstes" pronounced both with "hs" and "ks". I guess the version with "hs" can be explained by the fact that the word is derived from the adjective "nahe" (whose superlative is "am nächsten") which doesn't have a "ks" sound like "sechs", for example.


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## Hutschi

Hi, it strongly depends on the Word. "Sechs, des Bachs, des Ichs"
In all examples, it is different.

Only in "sechs" it is pronounced "ks" if you consider the list of my examples.

In "nächstes" it depends on the region, whether the "ch" is spoken as in "ich" (standard) or as in "Bach" (I think, this is standard in Switzerland.)

I do not know, how I can describe the sounds. Do you know the IPA?


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## James Bates

Hutschi said:


> Hi, it strongly depends on the Word. "Sechs, des Bachs, des Ichs"
> In all examples, it is different.
> 
> Only in "sechs" it is pronounced "ks" if you consider the list of my examples.
> 
> In "nächstes" it depends on the region, whether the "ch" is spoken as in "ich" (standard) or as in "Bach" (I think, this is standard in Switzerland.)
> 
> I do not know, how I can describe the sounds. Do you know the IPA?


 
I sure do!
By the way, if I pronounced "chs" as "x" in all the words you mentioned, would my pronunciation be considered wrong?


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## EvilWillow

There are three different ways of pronouncing "chs" in German, as illustrated by Hutschi's examples (Sechs [ks], des Bachs [xs], des Ichs [çs]). But that doesn't mean that you can stick to _one_ of them and apply them to _all_ words with "chs"! You _can_ do that, of course, but it's not standard German. 

Many foreigners have problems with [ç], for example, so they say [x] instead. On the other hand, some Germans have problems with the English [θ] and [ð], but despite "wrong" pronunciation, they're all still able to communicate effectively in the respective foreign language, aren't they?


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## Suilan

Hutschi said:
			
		

> ... "nächstes" it depends on the region, whether the "ch" is spoken as in "ich" (standard) or as in "Bach" (I think, this is standard in Switzerland.)


 
Were I'm from, nächstes is pronounced with ks (or x)



			
				James Bates said:
			
		

> By the way, if I pronounced "chs" as "x" in all the words you mentioned, would my pronunciation be considered wrong?


 
Yes. Very much so. The usual distinction is between the "ich-Laut" and the "ach-Laut"

*ch* following an *i or e* is pronounced IPA [ç], examples: ich, Pech, Mädchen, wichtig, endlich, gerecht. This is close to the sh sound, except a bit farther back in the mouth (and the tongue does not touch the roof of the mouth, as it does in sh).

Also following *ä, ü, or ö, eu/äu, ei/ai*: lächeln, Gelächter, gerächt, Gerücht, möchte, euch, Eiche.

*Initial ch* followed by *i or e*, as in Chemie or China, should also be pronounced with the ich-sound, but were I'm from, it's pronounced with a sh-sound, and were I'm currently living, it's pronounced with a k.

*ch* following an* a, u, o, or au* is pronounced IPA [x], which is like the *ch* in *Scottish Loch*. Examples: Bach, Bucht, lachen, Hypochonder, acht, auch, rauchen.

*chs* = ks (or x) is a special case. (It's not even mentioned in the English German Grammar I have.) Perhaps it is always pronounced ks (or x) unless the -s is a case or conjugation ending. Lachst du, des Bachs, are pronounced with -ach, des Pechs, des Fähnrichs with -ich. 

I found a few examples spelled *chz*, pronounced, ich-Laut + ts, e.g. lechzen, krächzen, but none spelled *chs* where the *chs* is not pronounced as x (but see previous paragraph).

Many of these *chs*-words are spelled with -x in English and my guess is that those are derived from the same Saxon words.

Flachs -- flax
Wachs -- wax
nächster -- next
Sechs -- six
Achse -- axis / axle
Ochse -- ox
Not to mention Sachsen -- Saxons / Saxony itself.

Doesn't always work, because our respective languages don't have the same Saxon words still around.

Achsel = armpit
Wechsel = change (this one is William the Conqueror's fault)
Deichsel = towing bar or shaft? (talking of ox-cart or horse-drawn carriage)
Lachs = salmon

Hope this helps,

Suilan

P.S. By the way, don't confuse the IPA notation of the ach-Laut, [x], with the letter x, which is represented as [ks].


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## avok

James Bates said:


> I have read that the combination "chs" is pronounced like the English "x", e.g. "sechs" (meaning "six"). However, I have been listening to Pimsleur German, and in it a speaker does not pronounce the "chs" in "nächstes" (as in "nächstes Jahr") as "x". Could a native speaker help me out please?


 
Hi James, I am not a native speaker ( I am not a speaker at all ) But I have listened to Germans and sometimes they pronounce even "sechs" close to zehs,(now I am sure they say, no!) when they speak carefully/slowly, I guess.

And they happen to pronounce "nachstes" also like "nahstes"  without x or "nakstest" with "x".

I think, when you are in doubt, you better pronounce "chs" as "ks" which sounds better to me.

But German x is different than English x. In English "k" is emphasized more, in German the "k" of "ks" may be closer to "ch" sound (usually in between)

bye


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## James Bates

Thank you all very much. And special thanks to Suilan.


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## James Bates

What about "zwanzigste", "dreißigste", etc? The "ig" is, after all, pronounced "ich" in "zwanzig" and "dreißig", so shouldn't the combination "igs" be pronounced "x"?
Thanks again.


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## Hutschi

By standard pronunciation according to Duden "Das Ausprachewörterbuch" it is pronounced with the "ich"- sound (ç). It is never pronounced with the "ach"-sound "x", like "Bach" in the regions, I know, but it might be somewhere, for example in Switzerland, I cannot proof this. Many pronounce it with "ks" sound (like "six").

"...igs" is pronounced "...çs" by Duden pronunciation standard.


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## James Bates

Danke schön!


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## James Bates

The "ichs" in "sprichst" (as in "Sprichst du Deutsch?") would therefore not be pronounced as "ix" but rather as "ich" followed by "s", right?


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## Hutschi

James Bates said:


> The "ichs" in "sprichst" (as in "Sprichst du Deutsch?") would therefore not be pronounced as "ix" but rather as "ich" followed by "s", right?


 
Exactly.


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## Robocop

(Flachs, Wachs, nächster, Sechs, Achse, Ochse, Sachsen, Achsel, Wechsel, Deichsel, Lachs)

In *Swiss *high German, the "ch" sound (ling.) in all the words listed by Suilan  is pronounced just like the ones in the very famous word "*Ch*u*ch*i*ch*äschtli". This pronounciation resembles most the *ch* in *Scottish Loch* as mentioned by Suilan.  

I cannot think of any German "ch" word with a different pronounciation except for *foreign *words: 
- Champagner (*sch*ampanier), Chicorée (*sch*ikoree), Chance (*sch*ansse), Champignon (*sch*ampiniong), Chalet (*sch*alé), Chassis (*sch*assi), Chef (*sch*eff), Cheminéé (*sch*minee), ...
- Cha-cha-cha (*tsch*a*tsc*ha*tsch*a), Chile (*tsch*iile), ...
- Chianti (*gg*ianti), Chiasso (*gg*iasso), Chiavenna (*gg*iawenna), ...

(please make allowances for my "special" notation of the pronounciation - I don't know better)


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## Acrolect

Additional information: 
In *Standard *Austrian German, _...ig_  is not pronounced as [ç], but as [k] (or as voiceless [g], if you allow for the fortis-lenis opposition), and _-igs_ consequently as [ks].


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## Hutschi

Das bedeutet: Standard ist dann in Österreich für "sprichst:" schprikst - Stimmt das so?


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## Acrolect

Nein, also die Grapheme <ch> werden auch am Wortende als Frikative [ç] oder [x] ausgesprochen, die Aussprache mit [k] sollte sich nur auf das <g> am Wortende beziehen (besonders das Suffix _-ig_). 

Words with <chs> without any morpheme boundaries in between, i.e. not _lach-st _or _Über-Ich-s_, tend to be pronounced as [ks], as far as I can tell, e.g. _Luchs, Lachs_, etc. and_ sechs_ is a homophone of _Sex_.


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## Brioche

Suilan said:


> Many of these *chs*-words are spelled with -x in English and my guess is that those are derived from the same Saxon words.
> 
> Flachs -- flax
> Wachs -- wax
> nächster -- next
> Sechs -- six
> Achse -- axis / axle
> Ochse -- ox
> Not to mention Sachsen -- Saxons / Saxony itself.
> 
> Doesn't always work, because our respective languages don't have the same Saxon words still around.
> 
> Achsel = armpit
> 
> Suilan



Achsel is related to Achse and to the Latin axilla.
In Scottish, northern English and Irish dialects the related word oxter is used for armpit.


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## elcastellano

Mod note:
The "ich" laut question has been moved to this older thread from here.

Wie geht’s euch!  Sorry I’m not that fluent in Deutsch yet.  First off, I know how to pronounce CH in Ach-laut.  So anyways, as the title says, my question is about the pronunciation of Ich-laut, more especifically, how to pronounce the CH in words like _ich_, _dich_, or the final G in words like _durstig_, _Leipzig_, etc.  Well my problem is that every source that I found up to now, including wordreference, says to pronouns it as [ç] (voiceless palatal fricative, H in English _hue_, H in Japanese _hito_).  The problem with that is, and I have an accute ear for differences in pronunciations, is that when I hear Till Lindemann of Rammstein sing or other native speakers for that matter singing and speaking, the CH sounds like [ʂ] (voiceless retroflex fricative, the Castilian S, as in _casa_.)  And I know it’s not [ʃ] (the English SH or German SCH/ S in St Sp, or French CH).  Also verschlimmern die Angelegenheit, wie uns hat beschreipt er die Aussprache des Ich-lauts ist: Laßt dass fließe die Luft hinüber eure zunge.  That’s my best German (seriously how was it?), in English just in case it I said anything wrong, (Also to complicate the matter, how he described the Ich-laut pronunciation to us: Let the air flow over your tongue.)  Well, the way he described it, it sounded like [ɕ] (voiceless alveolo-palatal fricative) or SH in Japanese, Mandarin, Russian, X in Catalan, etc.  So that’s the problem.  To me it sounds like [ʂ], yet materials that teach German say it’s [ç].  And then there’s what my German teacher said, which makes it sound like [ɕ].  One more thing, we had a German exchainge student, Kevin, and I asked him about it and he said that [ʂ] sounds like what a native speaker would say, I pronounced it for him twice and he said it sounded right.  So if any of y’all fellow Germans (forgot to say I’m part German) out there who are fluent in English and are linguists or you know what I’m talking about, os ruego, por favor DEZIZME NEZESITO LA AYUDA!  Sorry, just messing around, but serriously, I need help with this.

...

One more thing: I think I may have the Ich-laut sound I think it’s in between ʂ and ç again if anyone can help thanks.  And one more think, when I do use ç for Ich-laut it just doesn’t sound the same, again I have a very acute ear for sound differences.  So if I didn’t make anything clear enough or I said way too much about one thing just post it.


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## Derselbe

First of all, please note that pronunciation in Germany may very much depend on the region. While some pronunciations can be considered to be colloquial, others differing ways of pronunciation might be accepted as standard everywhere. 
This is true, for instance, for your _durstig _and _Leipzig _examples. While nothern people are likely to pronounce it like _Ich_, you will hear a hard _k_-sound in the south.



> says to pronouns it as [ç] (voiceless palatal fricative, H in English _hue_, H in Japanese _hito_)



This seems to be the only correct version you provided. _Hito _fits perfectly as far as I'm concerned, if you stop after _H_ and don't pronounce the _i_, of course (something that seems to be impossible for Japanese people).
The [ɕ]/[ʃ] sound is being used by some natives indeed. But [ç] is highly preferable in my opinion. 
[ʂ] just seems wrong.


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## Frank78

Wikipedia says ç is used in "huge", too but just in RP.


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## Alaedious

Hi everyone! 

Just a quick comment: as an American speaker of English, I pronounce "huge" and "hue" with the /ç/ sound as well.


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## elcastellano

EvilWillow said:


> ...Many foreigners have problems with [ç], for example, so they say [x] instead. On the other hand, some Germans have problems with the English [θ] and [ð], but despite "wrong" pronunciation, they're all still able to communicate effectively in the respective foreign language, aren't they?



If you're refering to native English speakers I think it's cuz most of us don't realize that this sound occurs in words like human and hue.  It's just an observation.


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## elcastellano

Derselbe said:


> First of all, please note that pronunciation in Germany may very much depend on the region. While some pronunciations can be considered to be colloquial, others differing ways of pronunciation might be accepted as standard everywhere.
> This is true, for instance, for your _durstig _and _Leipzig _examples. While nothern people are likely to pronounce it like _Ich_, you will hear a hard _k_-sound in the south.
> 
> 
> This seems to be the only correct version you provided. _Hito _fits perfectly as far as I'm concerned, if you stop after _H_ and don't pronounce the _i_, of course (something that seems to be impossible for Japanese people).
> The [ɕ]/[ʃ] sound is being used by some natives indeed. But [ç] is highly preferable in my opinion.
> [ʂ] just seems wrong.



I think I figuered it out.  When I was pronouncing ç before, I was centralizing it.  Now I see why you say ç is preferable.  I went to university of Iowa's website where they have the phonetics for English, German, and Castilian.  I looked at the moving model of how to pronounce ç and I saw how I was saying it differently and why iç for ich sounded wrong but now I know.  Thanks anyways I do appreciate your advice.  If you speak Castilian then ç is the voiceless version of  ʝ. It listening to myself saying   ʝ   to say ç anyways thanks again.


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## berndf

elcastellano said:


> ç is the voiceless version of  ʝ


That is exactly right.

A remark concerning [ʂ]: This variant sounds would sound strange to a German ear because retroflex sibilant are alien to German phonology. Uttered by a German native speaker, another German native speaker would suspect a speech disorder.


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