# Wuss - Wussy



## James Brandon

The term "wuss" (pronounced "wooss") is slang for someone who is weak and ineffectual. It could be a combination of "wimp" and "pussy" apparently (idea of someone namby-pamby). The adj. is "wussy". I can't say I hear it very often here in London. I get the feeling it is a recent slang term and that it is American in origin. Can you confirm (or not, as the case may be)? 

PS It is not in your dictionary. (To the Mods & [Big] Wigs.)


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## You little ripper!

Hi James, 

I found this on the internet.


From Cecilia:I came across the word _wuss _(which I found offensive) but found it in the Webster's dictionary. Would the word _wimp_ be an accurate substitute. And what is the origin of this word?​​_Wuss_ is indeed synonymous with _wimp_. It is a shortened form of _wussy_, which is thought to come from _pussy-wussy_, making it, basically, a synonym for _pussy_, a slang word meaning "a feeble man" or even "a homosexual"_. Webster's Unabridged Dictionary _dates _wuss_ to 1980-85, but _wussy_ is, of course, older. The OED, however, doesn't even contain _wuss_, _wussy_, or even _pussy-wussy. _If you are curious about where _pussy_ in this sense comes from, see our page on sexual slang, a page that is not for the weak of heart! 
 www.*take*our*word*.com/Issue109.html - 48k 

​


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## James Brandon

Charles,

This is interesting - and in fact it is _not_ a recent term (of abuse!) at all then... The meaning given here confirms what I knew and what I had found. There does appear to be a sexual meaning (i.e., here, potentially anti-gay). 

Many thanks


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## mamboney

I guess that it could have a sexual meaning, but I don't think of it that way at all.  It is a common thing to hear here in the US.
I always thought of a "wuss" as a person who is not brave, someone who is timid, afraid of asserting oneself.  
But I also think that in general it is equated with "loser".


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## river

A _wuss_ is a _weenie_. (What could be sexual about that?) 
_Slang._ A person, especially a man, who is regarded as being weak and ineffectual.


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## ElaineG

> The term "wuss" (pronounced "wooss") is slang for someone who is weak and ineffectual


 
Just wanted to note that on this side of the pond (AE), it's pronounced wuhss (or however you'd transcribe that -- rhymes with puss).


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## cuchuflete

I've been hearing it, and sometimes using it, for many decades.  It has never had, to my knowledge, a sexual connotation in current usage, whatever its origins may imply.


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## You little ripper!

My Webster's dictionary has 2 meanings for the word.  

1. "weak and ineffectual" 
2. (slang) "wimp", "sissy"


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## rel

ElaineG said:
			
		

> Just wanted to note that on this side of the pond (AE), it's pronounced wuhss (or however you'd transcribe that -- rhymes with puss).


Same on this side of the pond (at least where I live). I'm not sure if I've ever heard it pronounced as "wooss".
Personally I would never use that word anyway. It's one of those American imports in the same category as "sucks" and "rocks".


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## Tamlane

mamboney said:
			
		

> I guess that it could have a sexual meaning, but I don't think of it that way at all. It is a common thing to hear here in the US.
> I always thought of a "wuss" as a person who is not brave, someone who is timid, afraid of asserting oneself.
> But I also think that in general it is equated with "loser".


I agree entirely with this assessment. I've never even heard the words 'wuss' or 'wussy' used in a sexual way. I've also never heard either use as directly associated to the male gender only.  I have always used the term without gender. Is it possible that the sexual meaning is out of date, as in no longer in current use? Or is it simply not used in that context in the greater part of North America? If that is the case, where are the words used in that context?


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## foxfirebrand

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> I've been hearing it, and sometimes using it, for many decades. It has never had, to my knowledge, a sexual connotation in current usage, whatever its origins may imply.


I agree with both points, but I do remember first hearing "wuss" in the latish 70s-- hate to point this out, but that _was_ some decades ago.

Not only are the terms not sexual, but they derive from a strangely non-sexual idiom involving the word "pussy"-- which on the face of it is ordinarily very sexual.  Make sense?  The derogatory term "pussy" is in my experience almost universally misunderstood by people who aren't old enough to have logged a lot of time on the playgrounds and sports programs in the U.S. school system in the 1950s.  It's a schoolyard or playground term.

Kids who called each other pussies were using the word correctively, and most always doing so among friends.  "Don't be such a pussy" was far more common than "you're a damn pussy"-- fighting words if said with malice.  The idea behind using it was to encourage a kid who was struggling with something, like pushups in gym class for example-- a way of saying "come on, you can do it."  Nowadays kids would say "suck it up," an expression that originally came from military inspection, meaning "pull in your gut."

It was also used to deter squeamishness, when you had someone in your group who was always getting cold feet about the activity under consideration.  But what if we get _caught?  _Aw, don't be such a pussy.

Girls and women weren't called pussies.  They _have_ them, of course, and the word is a synonym for sex-- but as such it's used in the singular and without a definite or indefinite article.  "Good pussy is hard to find" does not refer to _a _good pussy.  Good pussy is redundant, "a" good pussy is oxymoronic.

The term was also not homophobic, though I guess like "sissy" it certainly skirted that territory.  Back in the 50s kids weren't real knowledgeable about the whole topic, and there was a clear demarcation between a pussy and a fruit.

"Wuss" arose as a minced form of the term, used by people who were basically pussies, and/or confused about the proper use of the original term.  TV needed a way of representing such a common expression, and though "don't be such a pussy" was innocent enough, the word it was based on was not allowed on the airwaves.  Also I think "pussy" got more derogatory when kids of my generation reached draft age, and it entered the military.  

When was it that our culture got so euphemism-crazy, and why didn't good plain-spoken people of all ages rise up against the trend, as soon as it first showed itself?
.


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## James Brandon

When I said "a sexual meaning" (and this was 'a shortcut' that was perhaps not entirely clear), I did not mean "a directly and _explicitly_ sexual _meaning_ as such" but "a sexual _connotation_" insofar as the term (noun & adj.), according to some references seen here and there by myself _prior_ to posting the Thread, did appear to point towards the meaning: "someone who is weak, timid, not assertive enough, a bit cowardly" => "someone who is not manly enough, not brave enough" => "someone who is not a real man" => "term of abuse occasionally used against homosexual men". 

I am not saying that this is the kind of 'reasoning' that would spring to my mind; what I am saying is that this was one possible (and implied) meaning (and target-group) associated with the word, according to what I had seen. 

I called this "a sexual meaning" in that it appeared to be referring (if only implicitly) to one sexual group in particular, that's all. Having said all that, from what several of you have said, this is _not_ the meaning that _you_ are familiar with, and you have explained that the meaning you are familiar with is far more general and 'neutral'. 

Thank you for all the insight into this term!


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## I.C.

Heard Australians say “He’s such a wuss.” Didn't notice a sexual connotation.


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## You little ripper!

I've also heard gay Australians use it, and the impression I got was that they were referring to an effeminate gay male.  I've also heard it being used to mean someone who's a bit weak-willed or timid.


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## I.C.

Well, I heard it being used when people were bitching about pains. 
The notion that being gay and not being overly tough are on the same plane may be a popular one, but I think I've heard "wuss" outside of that context. For example, a sister was complaining about the fuss her brother made about an injury and called him a wuss. I don't think she meant to indicate he's gay. But I don't feel qualified to boldly state how "wuss" is used or isn't.


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## James Brandon

OK, fair enough - it just means weak and perhaps a bit of a cry-baby, or a sissy, used in an ironic way, which does not mean (or does not have to imply) that the person is gay or not!


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## Brioche

James Brandon said:


> OK, fair enough - it just means weak and perhaps a bit of a cry-baby, or a sissy, used in an ironic way, which does not mean (or does not have to imply) that the person is gay or not!



I'd say that in Australia that it is a fairly mild term.
It implies a deficiency in manliness, but doesn't not mean gay.

It's often used in a self-deprecating way. 
"I'm a total wuss - you'll never catch me bungee jumping."


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## James Brandon

If your average Australian is prepared to describe himself as 'a total wuss', I presume one may draw the conclusion that, indeed, 'wuss' is not intended to mean 'gay' Down Under.


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## Orange Blossom

One of my women friends called herself a wuss when she 'chickened' out of something or when she was not physically strong enough to do something.  It's rather synomous with wimp.

Orange Blossom


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## James Brandon

This is indeed clearly the meaning in Australian English, from what has been said.

Tea Leaves


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## NileQT87

It isn't just Aussie English. American English is identical with this word. I'm actually female, and I've said numerous times that I'm a wuss when it comes to having a fear of heights, etc...

It basically means scaredy-cat, wimp, etc...


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## fenixpollo

I've noticed that many of the comments that this word is equivalent to "wimpy", "weak" or "cowardly", are associated with the variant wuss, not wussy.  

I think that the older usage of the word, _wussy_, is very similar in pronunciation (and perhaps etymology) to the sexually-connoted _pussy,_ and therefore retains the sexual reference. 

The modern variant _wuss_, which for many people lacks the sexual inference, can therefore be used in a non-vulgar way to refer to both genders.

Cheers.


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## Musical Chairs

They use "pansy" here too.


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## liliput

The term "wuss" has been around in UK English long enough for me not to have been aware that it was an American import.


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## simanus

I've found that the word "pussy" usually refers to cowardice more often than physical weakness, and this could come from some sort of genitalia-oriented reference to women, but it's more likely coming from slang for a cat. It's acquired more complex meaning now, but I imagine that the word pussy may have taken on the two slang meanings separately, female genitalia and cowardice. Both of these things have some sort of symbolic link to cats, or did at one time.

If it were implying that women were cowardly, that would be rather insulting to women, wouldn't it?


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## Andreyevich

Wuss means anyone that is weak, or a sissy.

There is no sexual connotation, at least not in my generation. If someone in my generation would like to make a homophobic remark, the use of the word "wuss" would, rather ironically, appear "wussy" in itself, due to the extremely mild nature of the word.

You would be hard-pressed to offend anyone in my generation with the words: "wimp", "wuss" or "sissy". "Pussy" is only very slightly less unoffensive.

Someone earlier mentioned that this word is a "mild term" in Australia. I dare say that the majority of offensive words are considered "mild terms" in our glorious nation, perhaps due to their often benevolent usage (i.e. the reference to "mates" as "bastards", or "c*nts" etc). .


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## nzfauna

Here in NZ, wuss refers to someone who is supposedly scared of/to do something, a *scaredy cat* perhaps?


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## Lexiphile

Here's an interesting twist on the word wussy that no one seems to have noticed:

David DeAngelo, who has been making a name for himself by teaching men (mostly American college students) how to attract women into bed, uses this term extensively to describe a man who lacks self-confidence and lets his "target" control the situation. He also describes it as a mixture of *wimp* and *pussy*, but the implications are more far-reaching than just *weak* or *sissy*. For example, a man who apologises to a woman when they bump into one another on the crowded bus is wussy; if instead he accuses her of bumping him intentionally in order to get him into bed, then he is not wussy. For more details, see his website here.


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## Franzi

I've always heard 'wuss' used to refer to people who are chickening (or wussing) out of doing something--anything from eating really spicy food to going sky diving.  I wasn't aware of any connotations of effeminacy.  It's completely gender neutral for me and has to do with things like refusing specific dares, not a general pattern of un-macho behavior.


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## Brioche

James Brandon said:


> If your average Australian is prepared to describe himself as 'a total wuss', I presume one may draw the conclusion that, indeed, 'wuss' is not intended to mean 'gay' Down Under.



My teenage son assures me that "wuss" does not mean "gay" [homosexual] in his age group.

I've never heard it with that connotation.


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## Andreyevich

Brioche said:


> My teenage son assures me that "wuss" does not mean "gay" [homosexual] in his age group.
> 
> I've never heard it with that connotation.



I agree with your son. Our age group does not really use the word "wuss" anymore - it is too dated, and has been superseded by a new variety of derogatory terms, may of which feature portmanteau insults (in particular, the fusing of a more traditional insult with a contemporary one).

If I wanted to call someone "gay", I would not use the word: "wuss". "Wuss" would be reserved for an extremely mild reference to someone's lack of physical strength/lack of courage. As a result of its mild nature, I would never even consider using it as an insult - it would always be used in a playful, slightly mocking tone.

If I called someone a wuss on the street, they'd probably laugh at me for using such a pathetic term. Wuss is to a "modern insult" what a hamster is to Hannibal Lector.


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## James Brandon

This BBC overview of the term claims it is US English and 1980s in origin; however, a lot of Australian contributors appear to be saying that it is Australian English, or used to be used extensively in Australia (but less so by younger generations). 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/learningenglish/radio/specials/1130_uptodate2/page19.shtml

On the issue of: _Is it a derogatory term as applied to gay men?_ the suspicion must remain that it carries - at any rates in certain circles - such connotations. If 'a wuss' is the opposite of a macho man, there will be the temptation to consider that 'a wuss', in the eyes of some speakers, must be weak, hence effeminate, hence gay. I do not condone this kind of thought process, obviously, but we know it goes on.


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## wolfsong03

You may or may not believe this...but I coined the word wussy back in the 70's to confound my mother. I subsituted the letter w for p in the word pussy, which indeed meant a wimp. I shortened it to wuss in fear of being found out..It spread like wildfire in my little country town of Wrightsdale , Pa.  SO we could all have a joke on the parents. I have witnesses to substantiate this.    Hope this helps.


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## James Brandon

Interesting claim and the Moderators may want to talk to your parents, if at all possible, to interview them and substantiate your claim to have invented the word! You should write to the Oxford Concise Dictionary and others to lay claim to the term, I suppose...


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## wolfsong03

Both my parents have passed...but the 2 girlfriends that I hung out with that also decided to use the word can back me up.  I talked to them the other night.  I was explaining to them that I told my boyfriend that I made that word up and he said...sarcastically...why don't you look up the origin. Well low and behold, they(wesbster) can't do it because they don't know ... I have written to them with no reply.


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## James Brandon

I am sorry to read about your parents having passed away. 

Regarding the origin of the expression, the consensus in the Thread was indeed that the word was American in origin, with the 1980s mentioned as the likely period when the word came into use.

The way that the dictionary writers would check any claim to have created a word would be, I presume, to check recorded instances, which would tend to be written (novels, newspapers...). This makes it difficult to credit a given person if that person used the term in speaking and there is no written proof to back it up - and even though the claim may be perfectly valid. 

Alternatively, I suppose they would look at any 'cluster' of users there may be, but this term seems so widespread now (with Australian entries for instance) that it would be difficult to establish more marked occurrence in a given geographical area of the US (such as the place or district where you lived at the time). 

I know there are databases of newspapers and books that can be scanned in order to find the 1st time a term popped up, but that is only valid for written entries, of course...


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## wolfsong03

James, 
   It's probably going to be impossible to prove, but I know it was me that started it, I'm not so sure I want to go down in history having invented such a word...I just did it to get over on my mother who was rather mean. It just happened to catch fire. It was 1974 and I was hanging out with an older crowd and thought I was very clever. I have invented a lot of things/words since then...which I am a lot prouder of..LOL


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## MFLanky

Wolfsong and James...my best friend Ken H and I feel that we coined the term in the summer of 1972 in W Peabody Massachusetts.  We were 15 years old and were at Ken's house on Hampshire Rd, thesaurus at the ready, discussing demeaning terms we could attach to our teenage rivals and tormentors.  That day we learned several new words such as "nimrod" and "jackanape" which we subsequently applied to our various enemies.  As we were talking about one kid in particular, Ken said "He's a big wimp", to which I replied, "Yah, a big pussy" To which we blurted out in unison "He is a WUSSY!" James, unlike you, Ken and I have always had certain level of juvenile pride for having "invented" the word.  The resurgence of term Nimrod usage at Peabody HS in the mid 70's is also something of which we feel responsible


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## James Brandon

I have not claimed to have invented anything - yet. I can see, however, that we have 2 competing claims, here... The idea that the term would be a combination of "wimp" and "pussy" is an interesting one. I think this has been mentioned in the thread, which, I must admit, I have not re-read in full today.


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## MFLanky

Hi James,

   I was joking to my friend Ken that the only way we could possibly substantiate our "claim" would be if some of the people to whom we directed the word wussy would:  A. Recall the slur or B. Still be talking to either he or I...slim chance at best  May have to press the issue at our upcoming 35th HS reunion.


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## Fishman

wolfsong03 said:


> You may or may not believe this...but I coined the word wussy back in the 70's to confound my mother. I subsituted the letter w for p in the word pussy, which indeed meant a wimp. I shortened it to wuss in fear of being found out..It spread like wildfire in my little country town of Wrightsdale , Pa.  SO we could all have a joke on the parents. I have witnesses to substantiate this.    Hope this helps.



Wuss has been in use in Australia for almost a century. It was coined in the trenches of France during WW1, along with many other slang terms which have made their way into common usage.

It was never a term for homosexuality, we have many others for that which I won't hazard to go into. 

It means a fearful person. Not even wimp, which here implies small and weedy, comes close to this. 

I am going to claim the word for Australia. It is NOT US slang, it is an Aussie expatriate word.


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## Pertinax

Fishman said:


> Wuss has been in use in Australia for almost a century. It was coined in the trenches of France during WW1, along with many other slang terms which have made their way into common usage.
> I am going to claim the word for Australia. It is NOT US slang, it is an Aussie expatriate word.



Do you have any evidence for this claim?  The earliest attested use in the OED is:
_1976 __Campus Slang__ (Univ. N. Carolina, Chapel Hill) (typescript) Nov. 6    Come on you wuss, hit a basket‥! John's a wuss._

I first heard the word here a decade or so ago, though I have lived in Australia for four decades.  That doesn't mean that the word hasn't been in circulation a lot longer.  But what evidence do you have that it was "coined in the trenches of France during WW1"?


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## James Brandon

It would be interesting to know whether the word is commonly used in Australia or not and/or was coined there (or by Australians) at an early stage. I suppose there could be a hypothesis whereby, even if it was locally minted Australian slang, it was - also - invented simultaneously (or later) and independently in another country, for instance the US. 

Going back to my original post, I mentioned an American origin and the combination of "wimp" and "pussy" with anti-gay connotations. This was all conjecture on my part.

What puzzles me here is how lively the discussion has been around this term: I am not sure I understand why people are so interested in it. If I look at the number of people who have viewed the thread, I think it is in excess of 13,000. Maybe it is because the term is slang and is known to people, and they are simply curious to know more about it...


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## Paul Barnes

I was wondering about the word wussy and decided to find out if there is any information as to the origin of the term.   The reason I'm interested is that I believe that I am user number one.   While on active duty in Naples, Italy, I worked with several females (Navy women) and while engaging in "shop banter", I wanted to soften the term "pussy" so I modified it using "wussy" - as others have said, the word pussy has sexual connotation - I had no intention of starting a new word or trend, but the term caught on at the base and soon all the guys were talking about going to town to find some sweet "wussy" (Italian wussy, that is).   The way we used the word had no connotation of wimp or limp-wristed, etc.   It was simply to disguise what we wanted to say, "Pussy" (and we didn't mean little feline).  I mentioned this to a friend from 2012 and he said I was crazy and that he had heard the term all his life.  But, I was in Naples in 1973 to 1975 and I used the term extensively.  Like I said, it wasn't my intention to start a new word - I just wanted the women who worked for me to not be offended if they overheard me talking about my exploits with the ladies.   So, while I'm not looking for credit, I do think that I might be moron number one!  And, I would like to add that I like wussy or wuss better than the more vulgar sounding pussy or puss.


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## Copyright

Paul Barnes said:


> I was wondering about the word wussy and decided to find out if there is any information as to the origin of the term.


From Etymology Online: wussy: 1960s, probably an alteration of pussy (n.2). DAS* suggests shortened from hypothetical pussy-wussy, reduplicated form of pussy (n.1).

*DAS is _Dictionary of American Slang_, by Harold Wentworth and Stewart Berg Flexner, published 1960, revised four times since.


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## natkretep

The word's possible relation to _wimp_ and _puss_ has been mentioned above, but just for the record, the OED seems to concur:


> Origin uncertain. Perhaps a blend of wimp _n.2_ and puss _n.1_ Compare slightly later wussy _n._


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## James Brandon

It is possible that the idea of altering "pussy" to make it "wussy", with "pussy" being used in a sexual sense here, and the "w" coming to mind since it is also the initial letter of the word "woman" -- it is possible that this alteration may have been present in the (spoken) language for a while... 

We are given a mid-1970s origin by one contributor who says he coined the word, while reference works appear to point to a 1960s origin (potentially 10 to 15 years earlier...). It is always going to be very difficult -- indeed close to impossible -- to establish who 'invented' a word since some words can also 'arise' in several places at the same time, I suppose.


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## Loob

Nice answer, James Brandon!

Paul Barnes may feel he invented "wuss(y)" in the way in which he used it.  But he clearly didn't invent "wuss(y)" in the way it's _generally_ used.


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## lovingservice56

Hi James, Wuss is a corruption of the word pussy. Bikers used this term to refer to his woman. He meant it to mean she is his property. She is the one he has sex with. It is a degrading word used only to say this is all she is good for.


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## mplsray

lovingservice56 said:


> Hi James, Wuss is a corruption of the word pussy. Bikers used this term to refer to his woman. He meant it to mean she is his property. She is the one he has sex with. It is a degrading word used only to say this is all she is good for.



If this were the case, I would expect to find evidence via the Internet, including Google Books, that bikers used the word in this way. I am unable to find any such evidence.


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## Elwintee

ElaineG said:


> Just wanted to note that on this side of the pond (AE), it's pronounced wuhss (or however you'd transcribe that -- rhymes with puss).



I must point out that in British English there are two distinct ways of pronouncing 'puss'.  The nasty stuff that oozes from a wound rhymes with 'us' and 'fuss'.  A beloved cat is called a 'pooss', sounding like the pus in 'push'.  The second pronunciation has the sexual connotation, especially when the endearment is extended to 'pussy'.  This relates to the femaile genitalia.


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## bennymix

I don't follow you, Elwin.
Around here in AE, for puss and pussy [meaning either cat or vulva], wuss and wussy, the vowel is the same as in 'put' or 'book'.

While it's true a cat, affectionately, on occasion, might also be called [puss]--rhyming with loose, that's another matter.


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## Elwintee

bennymix said:


> I don't follow you, Elwin.
> Around here in AE, for puss and pussy [meaning either cat or vulva], wuss and wussy, the vowel is the same as in 'put' or 'book'.
> 
> While it's true a cat, affectionately, on occasion, might also be called [puss]--rhyming with loose, that's another matter.



We are in agreement about the pronunciation.  Sorry that my transcription was misunderstood - my fault!  I certainly don't intend to indicate the 'loose' rhyme.  Similarity with 'put' is a much better way of describing it.


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## ewie

Elwintee said:


> 'puss'.  The nasty stuff that oozes from a wound rhymes with 'us' and 'fuss'.


Erm ... you mean _pus_, surely, Elwin ...


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## Elwintee

ewie said:


> Erm ... you mean _pus_, surely, Elwin ...



Yes, thanks for the correction.  I'm clearly off-beam today, and will shut up!


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## James Brandon

I have not re-read the whole thread, which seems to get resurrected from time to time. I do not remember reading a reference to "pussy" in the sexual sense in relation to "wussy", i.e. for instance what a (male) biker would use, as a term, in order to refer to his girlfriend (and perhaps his wife too). But it would stand to reason from a linguistic standpoint.

When I first posted up my query, I did say that "wussy"potentially incorporated a reference to "pussy", to imply weakness in the person deemed "a wuss", so the "pussy" reference was mentioned right from the start, but not in the sense put forward here.

< Question answered in unread part of thread. Cagey, moderator >


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## JustKate

I've never heard _wussy/wuss_ used to indicate homosexuality. It could have started that way, of course, but it's definitely not used that way now. The way I hear it used, and the way I use it myself, is to mean "weak and ineffectual person" - very close in meaning to _wimp_, really.


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## ESustad

I remember hearing "wuss" and "wussy" while a schoolkid in the Midwestern US, early- to mid-80s.  It had the connotation of effeminacy.  I always understood it to be a mix of wimp and pussy.


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## ewie

James Brandon said:


> I have not re-read the whole thread [...]
> I seem to remember sexual references in connection with "wuss" were mostly in relation to gay men or homosexual tendencies


I re-read the whole thread yesterday, James, and seem to recall that 50% of those references (which you _persist_ in calling 'sexual' ~ see page 1 of the thread) were you saying _"So it basically means 'homosexual', doesn't it_?" and the other 50% were people saying _"No, it doesn't."_

It's a very fetching bonnet, but I think it's time you let the bee out of it.


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## lucas-sp

ewie said:


> I re-read the whole thread yesterday, James, and seem to recall that 50% of those references (which you _persist_ in calling 'sexual' ~ see page 1 of the thread) were you saying _"So it basically means 'homosexual', doesn't it_?" and the other 50% were people saying _"No, it doesn't."_


Does "wuss(y)" _mean_ "gay"? No, obviously not. 

Would the word "wuss(y)" lend itself rather naturally to use in a context where a male is being made fun of for being other than ("less than") heterosexual? Yes, certainly.

"Mincing," "lisping," and "flamboyant" don't _mean _"gay," but they certainly can be used to gay-bash. 

I'm also a little bit uncomfortable by the description of a word's possible use to connote homosexuality as "a sexual meaning." I don't think there's anything _sexual_​ about being or acting homosexual per se.


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## James Brandon

So, we are agreed that some people -- not me, I do not use the word 'wuss' or 'wussy' -- will use the word for gay-bashing purposes, one way or other. That is another way of saying what I was saying below. 

I use 'sexual' not in the sense of 'a sexual act'; I use 'sexual' in the sense that the word carries connotations that relate to sexual preferences or characterizations. I do not think there is anything controversial here. If a word (wussy) is linked to another word (pussy) that can refer to the female genitalia, to say that the 1st one may have or carry a sexual meaning or connotations does not seem controversial to me. I cannot see what is shocking about that -- I mean about my description of the use of the term.


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## JustKate

I agree with Lucas (and Ewie  ). The problem is that _wuss_ and _wussy_ are never (at least in my experience) used to mean or hint that someone is "gay" or "homosexual." Anybody can describe anyone - friend, enemy, family member or himself - as "a wuss" or "such a wuss," and that person isn't saying or implying *anything* about that person's sexual orientation.

My older brother used to be a total wuss about giving blood. I myself am a total wuss when it comes to moths. I hate them. I want to shriek like a little kid when one flaps in my face. See? There's nothing in either of those sentences that hints about anybody's sexual preference.

(Cross-posted with James Brandon - with whom I somewhat disagree.)


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## James Brandon

OK, fair enough and there is never any sexual innuendo in the use of the word, then. Or, do you find (some) people who will use the word to 'accuse' someone of being a wimp, in the sense, if they are a man, that they are not macho enough, in the sense that, clearly, in the eyes of the person using the term, they must be some sort of 'gay-boy'? This is not the kind of language (filled with prejudice, obviously) that I use or approve of. But some people do. And some contributors to the thread seemed to be saying that, in certain cases, the term may be used in that way. If this interpretation is entirely wrong, fair enough, and what you say, Just Kate, stands in all circumstances. I am actually prepared to believe it.

To put it differently, different people may be using the word in different ways...


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## JustKate

James Brandon said:


> OK, fair enough and there is never any sexual innuendo in the use of the word, then. Or, do you find (some) people who will use the word to 'accuse' someone of being a wimp, in the sense, if they are a man, that they are not macho enough, in the sense that, clearly, in the eyes of the person using the term, they must be some sort of 'gay-boy'? This is not the kind of language (filled with prejudice, obviously) that I use or approve of. But some people do. And some contributors to the thread seemed to be saying that, in certain cases, the term may be used in that way. If this interpretation is entirely wrong, fair enough, and what you say, Just Kate, stands in all circumstances. I am actually prepared to believe it.


The thing about _wuss/wussy_ is that that it is such a *silly* word. A lightweight word. It sounds funny and goofy, and usually when people use it, they intend it to be at least somewhat funny. If you (not you personally, James) truly want to insult somebody's masculinity, you'd need to use a much stronger and more offensive word. _Wuss_ just isn't generally used when one intends to be seriously insulting.


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## James Brandon

OK, that is more convincing, actually, and more interesting than any polemical stance in refuting the use of the word in -- what I called -- a sexual way.


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## stpetric

Perhaps usage has varied over time and place. When I was a junior high school boy in Baltimore in the late 1960s "wussy" was indeed an insult impugning the masculinity or adequacy of a male, but it was the sort of insult you'd use of a friend who had done something stupid. "What a wuss!" "Don't be such a wussy!" Maybe we simply didn't know better, but in our use it was a toned-down, almost affectionate, insult.



James Brandon said:


> The term "wuss" (pronounced "wooss") is slang for someone who is weak and ineffectual. It could be a combination of "wimp" and "pussy" apparently (idea of someone namby-pamby). The adj. is "wussy". I can't say I hear it very often here in London. I get the feeling it is a recent slang term and that it is American in origin. Can you confirm (or not, as the case may be)?
> 
> PS It is not in your dictionary. (To the Mods & [Big] Wigs.)


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## Ben Dille

stpetric said:


> Perhaps usage has varied over time and place. When I was a junior high school boy in Baltimore in the late 1960s "wussy" was indeed an insult impugning the masculinity or adequacy of a male, but it was the sort of insult you'd use of a friend who had done something stupid. "What a wuss!" "Don't be such a wussy!" Maybe we simply didn't know better, but in our use it was a toned-down, almost affectionate, insult.


stpetric:  Of all these posts, yours most closely relates to my (admittedly hazy) memory.  I recall in Minnesota maybe in fifth grade or so, around 1971, using probably both wuss and wussy in the meaning of wimp (and with any sex or sexual orientation connotation per se), and probably heard pussy in this sense maybe about the same time or later.  I may have been rather nerdly, but the only obscene word for female genitalia I recall a friend telling us about the same time being the c-word.   In fact, into my 40s, I assumed that pussy and wussy in the context of wimp were completely different than the word pussy used to refer to the female genitalia that I had learned by high school in the mid-1970s; I did not associate them as the same until I was in Belarus in about 2004 and my (soon-to-be) Russian-native-speaking wife was shocked when I used the word for wimp, as she only knew it in English as the obscene meaning which was widely known among Russian-speakers (think Pussy Riot, a name more shocking in Russia than America, I believe).  I guess this ignorance is to be expected from a person (me) who used the words gee, geez, and geezus without knowing that it was a reference to Jesus until my mom corrected me in the mid-1970s.

As to the origin and earliest use, I cannot say, and am in no position to challenge the Australians in this conversation.  I can only confirm stpetric's recollection to the extent that the terms must have been in spoken use throughout the U.S. around that time, if it was wussy/wuss in Baltimore in the late 60s, the same in Minnesota in '71, and then to the scriptwriters of Fast Times at Ridgemont High prior to that movie's release.  I could not say whether it came to America from Australia somehow, or both came from the trenches of World War One, or - my suspicion - the same meaning and terms were independently and rather naturally coined from existing uses of pussy-wussy or wimp+puss.


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## glamorgan

I can report that in the 1950s/ 60s in South Wales, “wuss” was a crude form of address, for example: “Where d‘you think you’re goin' wuss?” It conveyed suspicion and mild aggression.


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## James Brandon

So, it has been around for quite a while and it would be wrong to think it is a recent 'import' from, say, the USA into the UK.


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## kentix

I can't prove it – I didn't keep a journal of slang terms and the dates I learned them – but I highly doubt it originated in the '80s. It seems like one of those words that's been around forever. And I go back before the '80s.


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## Loob

James Brandon said:


> I have not re-read the entire Thread


I think you should, James Brandon.  It doesn't take long.


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## James Brandon

Loob, maybe I have other things to do. Maybe it is not true that it doesn't take long if one does it properly. Thank you. 

PS - Anyway, I focused my comments on the last posts.


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## PaulQ

You little ripper! said:


> The OED, however, doesn't even contain _wuss_, _wussy_, or even _pussy-wussy._


This is not so. It is first recorded in 1976, so we may imagine that it had currency for some time before that:



> *wuss,* n.2
> 
> Forms:  1900s– woose, 1900s– wuss.
> 
> Etymology: Origin uncertain. Perhaps a blend of wimp n.2 and puss n.1 Compare slightly later wussy n.
> colloquial (originally U.S.). depreciative.
> 
> *A weak or ineffectual person; = wussy n.*
> 
> 1976   _Campus Slang_ (Univ. N. Carolina, Chapel Hill) (typescript) Nov. 6   _Come on you wuss, hit a basket..! John's a wuss._





James Brandon said:


> maybe I have other things to do.


Hmm... But you expect others to do that work?


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## James Brandon

So, if we trust the OED, what is interesting, here, is the link to the USA, it seems, and, also, the notion that it may be a combination of 'puss' and 'wimp', as already referred to. The OED is a very good source but, at the end of the day, it reflects what its team of lexicographers are aware of, which may only be a part of the reality of language 'in the field' - and not that I am trying to call their expertise and high standards into question.

< Off-topic comments deleted. Cagey, moderator >


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## Slcaicco

I’m almost certain that the word “wuss” was in common use when I was in high school in Pennsylvania. I graduated in 1968. I agree with others who have provided the meaning as “a coward.” It was probably used more often in reference to males, but was also used for females. “Don’t be such a wuss” and references to someone having “wussed out” were typical.


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## James Brandon

Interesting that 'wuss' could have been used about girls. I am saying this because most contributors have referred to the idea of 'wussy' meaning 'cowardly' and 'effeminate', and, thus, tending to be applied to males (as an insult, obviously).


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## ewie

James Brandon said:


> most contributors have referred to the idea of 'wussy' meaning [...] 'effeminate'


_No, they haven't_. I can say this confidently because I re-read the thread on March 4th.
See post #59 above.

Please re-read the thread.

< Updated post # in view of deletions. Cagey, moderator >


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## James Brandon

Indeed. What do Posts #5 and #6 say? I quote:-

_Wuss is indeed synonymous with wimp. It is a shortened form of wussy, which is thought to come from pussy-wussy, making it, basically, *a synonym for pussy, a slang word meaning "a feeble man" or even "a homosexual".* Webster's Unabridged Dictionary dates wuss to 1980-85, but wussy is, of course, older. The OED, however, doesn't even contain wuss, wussy, or even pussy-wussy. If you are curious about where pussy in this sense comes from, see our page on sexual slang, a page that is not for the weak of heart!

A wuss is a weenie. (What could be sexual about that?) Slang. A person,* especially a man*, who is regarded as being weak and ineffectual._

It does not mean it cannot be used about a woman. But it does mean that it tends to be used about a man. I believe most people will have heard it in relation to a man who is being accused of being 'too soft'. It may not be the only way that it is used, but it does appear to be a major way.

I never use that word, by the way, but have heard it used in that derogatory way, about another man. I am discussing the meaning, i.e. how people use it; I am not condoning the use of the term or saying that this has anything to do with what I believe. It is not a moral judgment. It is an analytical exercise.

I rest my case. 

_<Off-topic comment removed by moderator (Florentia52) for tone>_


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## london calling

James Brandon said:


> Interesting that 'wuss' could have been used about girls. I am saying this because most contributors have referred to the idea of 'wussy' meaning 'cowardly' and 'effeminate', and, thus, tending to be applied to males (as an insult, obviously).


You have already been told it is used for women as well (not just girls). I can confirm that, because a good US (female) friend of mine (a woman, not a girl) used it referred to herself in a message she sent me recently.


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## James Brandon

That is fine. So, we have (re-) confirmed that. I am happy because it is inclusive, then.

PS The reason I have referred to an implicit sexual meaning is quite obvious, I believe: if 'wussy' combines 'pussy' and 'wimp', and given the well-known sexual meaning of 'pussy' in relation to female sexual genitalia, there would be a sexual angle that would be hard to deny.


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## london calling

I think the sexual angle went by the board a while ago.


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## Slcaicco

James Brandon said:


> Interesting that 'wuss' could have been used about girls. I am saying this because most contributors have referred to the idea of 'wussy' meaning 'cowardly' and 'effeminate', and, thus, tending to be applied to males (as an insult, obviously).


As I recall, when it was used for females it was typically in the verb form. i.e., as one having “wussed” out. Similar to “chickened out.”


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## london calling

Slcaicco said:


> As I recall, when it was used for females it was typically in the verb form. i.e., as one having “wussed” out. Similar to “chickened out.”


See my post above. I'm talking 'now', not 'then'.


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## James Brandon

When I say the 'sexual angle', it is in relation to the *origin *of the term, whether people using it are even aware of it or not, that is all. Language has become far coarser and far more explicit over the past 30 to 40 years, so, obviously, something that might have been deemed sexual and shocking back in 1975, would be deemed bland and unimportant today... I think we have all noticed.


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## Slcaicco

James Brandon said:


> When I say the 'sexual angle', it is in relation to the *origin *of the term, whether people using it are even aware of it or not, that is all. Language has become far coarser and far more explicit over the past 30 to 40 years, so, obviously, something that might have been deemed sexual and shocking back in 1975, would be deemed bland and unimportant today... I think we have all noticed.


I was responding to your “could have been used” which seems like “then” to me.


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## ewie

I repeat:
You said [#76]


James Brandon said:


> most contributors have referred to the idea of 'wussy' meaning 'cowardly' and 'effeminate'


I repeat: *They haven't*. To all contributors it means 'cowardly'; it only means 'effeminate' to some contributors.

Please read the whole thread again, even _once_.

<_Reply to now-deleted comment removed by moderator (Florentia52)>_


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## James Brandon

OK, so, it is a mixed bag. We can agree on that.

I posted up the original query in 2005 (that is over 15 years ago ). I do not own this Thread. I am not the one who re-started it. That is the context.
_<Off-topic comment removed by moderator (Florentia52) for tone>_


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## ewie

James Brandon said:


> I posted up the original query in 2005 (that is over 15 years ago ). I do not own this Thread. I am not the one who re-started it. That is the context.


And I can't comment on this section of your post because, though I know what all the individual words mean taken separately, I've no idea what they all mean together here.


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## Roxxxannne

James Brandon said:


> ...It does not mean it cannot be used about a woman. But it does mean that it tends to be used about a man. I believe most people will have heard it in relation to a man who is being accused of being 'too soft'. It may not be the only way that it is used, but it does appear to be a major way.
> 
> I never use that word, by the way, but have heard it used in that derogatory way, about another man. I am discussing the meaning, i.e. how people use it; I am not condoning the use of the term or saying that this has anything to do with what I believe. It is not a moral judgment. It is an analytical exercise....


I hear it in the US these days for both men and women, and only in reference to cowardice or fear, not 'effeminacy' or homosexuality.
In the US the -u- is pronounced like the -u- in _put, _not like the -u- in _pus_ or _obtuse_.


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## James Brandon

I think we have established that it can be used for both genders. The origin of the phrase (more particularly if it combines 'pussy' with 'wimp') would still point towards that sexualized meaning, it seems to me. But, of course, the meaning and usage can shift over time, and no one even remembers where the word came from. 

I believe it is pronounced as you say in the UK, i.e. [wus] and [wusi:], like 'puss' or 'put' or indeed 'pussy'.


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## Roxxxannne

James Brandon said:


> I think we have established that it can be used for both genders. The origin of the phrase (more particularly if it combines 'pussy' with 'wimp') would still point towards that sexualized meaning, it seems to me. But, of course, the meaning and usage can shift over time, and no one even remembers where the word came from.
> 
> I believe it is pronounced as you say in the UK, i.e. [wus] and [wusi:], like 'puss' or 'put' or indeed 'pussy'.


The replies to your post #81 pertain to British English or (#85) to past use in American English.  My post #95 was meant as a friendly contribution regarding current American English usage in reference to men and women.

By the way, I do remember where the word came from.


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## James Brandon

Fair enough: as pointed out repeatedly by various contributors, a rather long Thread going back more than 15 years...  I am sure many people using the phrase realize where it comes from but, equally, there could be many people who have not thought about it and are not aware of it. And not everyone is interested in language: that's all I meant.

The American and the British meanings seem to be the same, here.


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## Roxxxannne

If we keep this thread going long enough someone can write a dissertation on it some day.


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## James Brandon

If I am still around in 15 years' time and I have not lost my marbles by then, I will be quite happy to go over it with a fine-tooth comb, analyze the data in great detail and, indeed, produce a learned paper on the issue. I would like to have it published in _The Anglo-American Journal of Contemporary English Slang_. (If it does not exist yet, it might, by then. It _should_ exist, in fact.)

On this note, I am off to lunch. One can be rather busy. Most days.


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