# Malpensante



## moodywop

Dictionaries don't seem to offer a satisfying translation for this word. The _Oxford/Paravia Dict_ gives a definition rather than a translation, which seems a bit of a cop-out: 

_essere malpensante = to be always thinking badly of everything._

_The Garzanti Dict _opts for _nasty-minded person._

A _malpensante _is someone who always expects the worst from people, suspects ulterior or nasty motives behind what people do or say and picks a malevolent interpretation, however unjustified.


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## systema encephale

Zanichelli "Il nuovo Ragazzini" from 1990 says

_wrong-minded; wrong-thinking

_It doesn't satisfy me either. Let's wait for natives.


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## moodywop

systema encephale said:
			
		

> Zanichelli "Il nuovo Ragazzini" from 1990 says
> 
> _wrong-minded; wrong-thinking_
> 
> It doesn't satisfy me either. Let's wait for natives.


 
The "Ragazzini" translations seem even more misleading! By the way, please feel free to amend my definition of "malpensante" if you find it imprecise or incomplete in any way.


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## systema encephale

moodywop said:
			
		

> By the way, please feel free to amend my definition of "malpensante" if you find it imprecise or incomplete in any way.


On the contrary, I think it perfectly suits the word. I have the same definition of _malpensante_ you do.


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## Alice_in_Wonderland

moodywop said:
			
		

> A _malpensante _is someone who always expects the worst from people, suspects ulterior or nasty motives behind what people do or say and picks a malevolent interpretation, however unjustified.


 
-Prejudiced?

Something like that, maybe?

Ciao da
Marta  

PS: Let's see what the natives have to say...


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## systema encephale

Alice_in_Wonderland said:
			
		

> -Prejudiced?
> 
> Something like that, maybe?


I think _malpensante_ is even stronger, it's more than just a person with prejudices against somebody.



			
				Alice_in_Wonderland said:
			
		

> PS: Let's see what the natives have to say...


I agree!


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## You little ripper!

_Cynic_ is probably the closest I can come up with. It is someone who is always critical of the motives of others.


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## DAH

La parola mi viene e' cynique.  In Inglese, c'e' la parola "cynic."


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## Alice_in_Wonderland

What about "paranoid", then?  

Grazie da
Marta


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## You little ripper!

Alice_in_Wonderland said:
			
		

> Charles and DAH,
> 
> What about "paranoid"?
> 
> Grazie da
> Marta


Marta, someone who is paranoid is tends more to being extremely and unreasonably suspicion of other _*people* _and their motives but _*cynic*_ I think fits better because it can include being negative about inanimate objects also.

I _just bought a new computer program; I bet it has bugs in it._
_I was given a sweater as a present for my birthday; I bet it doesn't fit properly. _

People do use _paranoid_ with inanimate objects and situations but I don't think that's the true meaning of the word.


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## Alice_in_Wonderland

Charles Costante said:
			
		

> Marta, someone who is paranoid is extremely and unreasonably suspicion of other _people _and their motives but cynic I think fits better because it can include being negative about inanimate objects also.
> 
> _I just bought a new computer program; I bet it has bugs in it._
> _I was given a sweater as a present for my birthday; I bet it doesn't fit properly. _


 
Oh, I see! Thank you, Charles!  

I must have misunderstood the meaning of "cynic", then.

I always thought that a "cynic" was someone who has become disillusioned with the motivations that lie behind human conduct, which, he believes, is solely motivated by self-interest.


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## You little ripper!

Alice_in_Wonderland said:
			
		

> Oh, I see! Thank you, Charles!
> 
> I must have misunderstood the meaning of "cynic", then.
> 
> I always thought that a "cynic" was someone who has become disillusioned about the motivations that lie behind human conduct, which, he believes, is solely motivated by self-interest.


Yes, that is one of the meanings of the word but it can also mean a pessimist and a person who always finds fault.


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## Alice_in_Wonderland

Charles Costante said:
			
		

> Yes, that is one of the meanings of the word but it can also mean a pessimist and a person who always finds fault.


 
Thank you very much, Charles! It's never too late to learn something new!  

Grazie tante da
Marta


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## DAH

Alice_in_Wonderland said:
			
		

> What about "paranoid", then?   Grazie da
> Marta


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoia
Following Wikipedia, common usage of paranoid also means that a person has unreasonable fear about people in his life, strangers (e.g., at a market, someone they don't know makes eye contact with them) or an entity like the government.


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## Alice_in_Wonderland

DAH said:
			
		

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoia
> Following Wikipedia, common usage of paranoid also means that a person has unreasonable fear about people in his life, strangers (e.g., at a market, someone they don't know makes eye contact with them) or an entity like the government.


 
This makes sense, since someone who is paranoid often suffers from persecutory trends as well.


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## You little ripper!

In Wikipedia the word _cynic_ is descibed as not only by _a person who believes that all people are motivated by selfishness_ but by _a person who is scornfully negative_.
Link


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## Alice_in_Wonderland

Charles Costante said:
			
		

> _scornfully negative_.


 
That's it, then! My suggestion (i.e. "paranoid") was wrong because a paranoid person is afraid (terrorized), while, according to the definition above, a "malpensante" is scornfully negative, an inveterate pessimist, rather than scared.

Märta


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## carrickp

I think the word you're looking for could be "misanthrope."


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## Alice_in_Wonderland

carrickp said:
			
		

> I think the word you're looking for could be "misanthrope."


 
I had actually thought about it, but it doesn't fit the situations highlighted by Charles:



			
				Charles Costante said:
			
		

> I just bought a new computer program; I bet it has bugs in it.
> I was given a sweater as a present for my birthday; I bet it doesn't fit properly.


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## carrickp

Charles Costante said:
			
		

> I _just bought a new computer program; I bet it has bugs in it._
> _I was given a sweater as a present for my birthday; I bet it doesn't fit properly. _


In this case I might use "defeatist." Slang terms include "sourpuss" and "wet blanket."

I think a "cynic" is someone who mistrusts the motives of others more that it is someone who always sees the dark side.


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## Alice_in_Wonderland

What about "a grouch", then? Grouchy?

And a "wet blanket" is a bit like a "killjoy", I think. Isn't it?

Ciao da
Marta


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## ElaineG

Misanthrope mi piace.  Sono una cinica (non mi fido troppo del governo, dei motivi degli altri) ma questo non vuol dire che penso _male_ degli altri, solo che penso di capire come funziona il mondo.  

Invece, un "misanthrope" odia la gente, non vede bene in nessuno.


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## erick

A me piacciono i suggerimenti di Carrick: misanthrope e defeatist.
Ma dipende del contesto.  Non credo che ci sia una parola equivalente a «malpensante».  Se un malpensante è una persona che critica e lamenta ogni piccola cosa, e non è disponibile a fare tante cose, io la chiamerei un "killjoy" o "downer."  Sono le parole colloquiali: "Bob is always moaning about everything that comes up, he's such a downer / killjoy."  E' una disposizione antipatica.


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## You little ripper!

I don't think _misanthrope_ fits because it generally means _someone who dislikes people._ It is not someone who _thinks badly about everything_ which is one of the definitions given by Carlo in the first post. _Defeatist_ is _someone who is resigned to defeat_ and to me seems more personal. It doesn't mean _someone who thinks badly about everything. _
I think the word _negativist,_ which I discovered as a synonym for _defeatist_ in Webster's dictionary probably fits better. According to WordNet one of the meanings of _negativist_ is a _pessimist _or_ someone who expects the worst._


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## erick

Charles Costante said:
			
		

> It is not someone who _thinks badly about everything_ which is one of the definitions given by Carlo in the first post.


Maybe you overlooked this part, which sounds slightly misanthropic:


			
				Carlo said:
			
		

> A malpensante is someone who always expects the worst from people, suspects ulterior or nasty motives behind what people do or say and picks a malevolent interpretation


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## moodywop

I'm afraid that none of the proposed translations fit the bill. We have cognate words for _cynic, pessimist, misanthrope, defeatist(cinico, pessimista, misantropo, disfattista)_ and I'm sure that other Italians will agree that a _malpensante _is something else. _Paranoid _is much too strong. The Oxford/Paravia definition is misleading: it should be "someone who is always thinking badly of *others"* - not _things. _It is often used jocularly. For example if Elaine were to suggest that there is an affair going on between Elisa and me(based on our offline friendship) I might say she's being a _malpensante._ A _malpensante_ is quite likely to be a _maldicente _as well, i.e. someone who spreads mischievous gossip or is always criticizing others.

I was surprised to find out that an older meaning of _malpensante _is something like a "maverick", someone who holds unconventional views. Garzanti actually gives it as the primary meaning and labels the currrent meaning as "regionale":

mal pensante, _agg_. e _s. m_. e _f_. 
*1* che, chi ha opinioni, spec. politiche o religiose, diverse da quelle ritenute giuste o condivise dalla maggioranza 
*2* (_region_.) che, chi è incline a pensare male del prossimo

Do other Italians agree that this is misleading and that sense 2. is the only current one?

Interestingly, _benpensante _is the precise antonym of sense 1. _I benpensanti _are "the moral majority": _i benpensanti non hanno visto di buon occhio il successo di "Brokeback Mountain"._


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## You little ripper!

erick said:
			
		

> Maybe you overlooked this part, which sounds slightly misanthropic:





> Originally Posted by *Carlo*
> _A malpensante is someone who always expects the worst from people, suspects ulterior or nasty motives behind what people do or say and picks a malevolent interpretation_


I didn't miss that part at all erick. What I said is that _misanthrope_ is not someone who _thinks badly about everything_ which is one of the definitions by Oxford Paravia given by Carlo in that same first post.


> _essere malpensante = to be always thinking badly of everything
> _


I am assuming that this is also part of the definition of _malpensante._


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## You little ripper!

moodywop said:
			
		

> The Oxford/Paravia definition is misleading: it should be "someone who is always thinking badly of *others"* - not _things. _


Carlo, if we can't have faith in a reputable dictionary like Oxford Paravia this whole thing is ridiculous! 
I can understand that the meaning of a particular word in the dictionary can have changed because people have added something extra as far as meaning goes, which dictionaries as yet may not have published, but you can't just say that a dictionary meaning of a word is misleading. Saying that _malpensante _means that someone is always thinking badly of others and not things is tantamount to saying that the dictionary is wrong. You can say that it has that meaning *plus* an added meaning because of its recent usage.


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## moodywop

An example from the news radio bulletin a few minutes ago. Berlusconi said he cancelled his scheduled meeting with the Pope just before the general election in order to stave off the criticism of _malpensanti(_who would suggest that the meeting was a way of winning over Catholic voters_)._

PS Charles, bilingual dictionaries are indeed often misleading. The Garzanti definition("chi è incline a pensare male del *prossimo*") contradicts the Oxford/Paravia one. On the whole monolingual dictionaries are more reliable.
On the other hand the "regionale" label puzzles me. Systema encephale is from Modena, I am from Naples and yet we agree on the current sense of the word. Maybe it was "regionale" to start with but then became standard usage. However let's wait for confirmation from our friends from Liguria, Lombardia and Veneto

Edit: Only the other day Dah quoted a dictionary equating "celibe"(unmarried man") with "celibate"(abstaining from sex). Talk about misleading!


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## erick

Come ho detto prima non credo che ci sia _una_ parola equivalente a «malpensante».


			
				moodywop said:
			
		

> A _malpensante_ is quite likely to be a _maldicente _as well, i.e. someone who spreads mischievous gossip or is always criticizing others.


Però, mi viene in mente la parola "badmouth" per la seconda parte, _il comportamento_ di una persona che critica sempre gli altri: He's such a dour person, always badmouthing everyone he meets."



			
				moodywop said:
			
		

> Berlusconi said he cancelled his scheduled meeting with the Pope just before the general election in order to stave off the criticism of _malpensanti(_who would suggest that the meeting was a way of winning over Catholic voters_)._


A proposito, una domanda (forse) collegata: qual è la parola italiana per "cicada", il termine usato da Oriana Fallaci nel suo libro - _La rabbia e l'orgolio_?


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## You little ripper!

moodywop said:
			
		

> PS Charles, bilingual dictionaries are indeed often misleading. The Garzanti definition("chi è incline a pensare male del *prossimo*") contradicts the Oxford/Paravia one. On the whole monolingual dictionaries are more reliable.


Carlo, DeMauro gives this definition of the word:

mal|pen|sàn|te
agg., s.m. e f.
1 BU spreg., che, chi ha idee e convinzioni o professa concezioni e dottrine, spec. religiose, morali o politiche, difformi da quelle dominanti 
2 CO che, chi tende a vedere il male dovunque o ad avere una cattiva opinione degli altri [quadro 28]
*Varianti*: mal pensante 


_Chi tende vedere male dovunque, _if I'm not mistaken means_ to see or think negatively of everything. _That to me would indicate that it is not just _avere una cattiva opinione degli altri_ which is another meaning it gives.


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## moodywop

Charles Costante said:
			
		

> _Chi tende vedere male dovunque, _if I'm not mistaken means_ to see or think negatively of everything. _That to me would indicate that it is not just _avere una cattiva opinione degli altri_ which is another meaning it gives.


 
What can I say, Charles? I'm only able to report on the way I use the word myself and how I hear it used by others and on TV(or see it used in the press and novels). Maybe mine is an idiosyncratic use limited to my small Southern town


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## You little ripper!

moodywop said:
			
		

> What can I say, Charles? I'm only able to report on the way I use the word myself and how I hear it used by others and on TV(or see it used in the press and novels). Maybe mine is an idiosyncratic use limited to my small Southern town


Carlo, I actually think that you've brought up an important issue. Is the meaning of a word what the dictionary says it is or is it determined by how the general public use it? I actually agree with what you're suggesting, i.e. that the meaning should be what is generally accepted by the general public.  Dictionaries go out of date very quickly.


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## Silvia

My personal opinion: the word malpensante is rarely used, while benpensante is largely used (in any case, the primary meanings are as Carlo stated, that is not as shown in the dictionary).

Concordo comunque sul fatto che probabilmente non esiste un traducente specifico per questo sostantivo. Di volta in volta, si potrebbe scegliere il termine più adatto a seconda del contesto... tra tutti quelli che avete già proposto, aggiungendo che in taluni casi anche l'aggettivo evil potrebbe rendere l'idea.


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## systema encephale

Silvia said:
			
		

> in taluni casi anche l'aggettivo evil potrebbe rendere l'idea.


Un malpensante non è detto che sia malvagio


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## Silvia

systema encephale said:
			
		

> Un malpensante non è detto che sia malvagio


 Forse non ti sono chiare tutte le sfumature dell'aggettivo evil, per esempio quella relativa alla malignità o alla maliziosità.


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## carrickp

erick said:
			
		

> Come ho detto prima non credo che ci sia una parola equivalente a «malpensante».


This certainly seems to be the case. It's kind of a combination, depending on context, of "misanthrope," "cynic," "naysayer," "wet blanket," "gloomy gus" and goodness knows how many others. Kind of like the character "Eeyore" in "Winnie the Pooh."

_Honi soit qui mal y pense._


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## ElaineG

carrickp said:
			
		

> This certainly seems to be the case. It's kind of a combination, depending on context, of "misanthrope," "cynic," "naysayer," "wet blanket," "gloomy gus" and goodness knows how many others. Kind of like the character "Eeyore" in "Winnie the Pooh."
> 
> _Honi soit qui mal y pense._


 
Also: crab, as in "Don't be such a crab!  You might actually like the people at the party for once."


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## Elisa68

Credo che in realtà _cinico _o _misantropo_ non rendano l'idea di _malpensante_.
Noi abbiamo un detto:

_A pensar male si fa peccato...ma ci si indovina_! (con varianti di ogni tipo)

Un malpensante è qualcuno che pensa male non perché sia un disilluso ma perché vuole pensare male, direi anche con un pizzico di malizia (che abbiamo visto non essere traducibile con _malicious_); è una persona sospettosa, ma anche _suspicious_ è riduttivo_._

Stavolta devo convenire, a malincuore, con Carlo  :
non mi sembra che ci sia una parola corrispondente in inglese, ma possiamo sempre provare con un'espressione.


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## Saoul

Ciao!

what do you think about EVIL-MINDED?

Saoul


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## moodywop

It's not so much that a _malpensante _is not necessarily evil. The point is that "evil" is too generic. A _stupratore_ is "evil" but I can't translate "stupratore" as "evil"!



			
				charles costante said:
			
		

> Dictionaries go out of date very quickly


 
That's a good point. Many Italian dictionaries tout new editions as "completely revised and updated" when all they do is add a few new words and leave the rest of the entries untouched. The "Zingarelli" sticks 2004, 2005, 2006 labels on its cover every year although 95%(or more) of the text is the same as my old edition from 1970.

Having said that, Italian lexicography is miles behind British lexicography. Because English dictionaries have a huge market, publishers can afford to lavish extensive resources on their dictionary editors. British dictionaries are corpus-based, i.e. based on the computer analysis of hundreds of millions of words from spoken and written English. Completely revised editions are released every two or three years - something no Italian publisher can afford.

One more point. The _OED _and the _SOED _are "historical" dictionaries, so they rightly list older meanings first. On the other hand the _New Oxford Dict of E_ lists current meanings first, which I think is a good idea for "general" dictionaries. The _Garzanti, _instead, gives the obsolete sense of _malpensante _first.

And talking of reliability, the _SEI _(a highly respected publisher) Eng-It Dict translates _malpensante_ as "holding erroneous or unorthodox views"(adj) and "heretic;rebel"(noun). The current meaning is not mentioned at all!


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## DAH

moodywop said:
			
		

> An example . . . . On the other hand . . . . puzzles me.
> 
> Edit: Only the other day *Dah* quoted a dictionary equating "celibe" (unmarried man") with "celibate" (abstaining from sex). Talk about misleading!


 No, lei non lo fatto mai. Penso che fosse un'altra persone di me. ["mash-up."]

DAH 
*Re: celibate* 
Vedi qui http://www.wordreference.com/enit/celibacy

Anche, vorrei notare che etimo.it non ha un'annotazione per malpensante.


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