# British Residents in Spain



## stevea

We recently visited relatives in Andalucia who moved there about 8 years ago. They are living in a Spanish town with quite a few non Spanish residents there. On the way to their home we passed numerous "urbanizaciónes" that seemed to be all British. To me this seemed a wholey innappropriate thing to do. One of the main reasons for going to Spain would be to join in and integrate.

Do the Spanish authorities actively encourage people who live in such places to join in more or are these urbanizaciónes purely seen as an economic (as opposed to a social) matter?


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## PABLO DE SOTO

The idea we have here in Spain about that kind of residents in our country is that they have no interest in integrating in the Spanish society.
Most of those residents are pensioners who supposedly have more difficulties in changing their way of life, learning Spanish etc. than young people would have, but not all the residents are old people. There are young families with children that have moved to Spain, and their children go to Spanish schools, learn the language and in the future they will be half Spanish half British.
I live in Costa del Sol and I have met some British residents, young people working here for those old expats, in hospitals, banks etc.
Some of them have found their paradise in Spain and decide to stay here, some others hate Spain, they do not integrate at all and are longing for the day to come back to Britain.
Authorities do not actively encourage their integration, there are no special programmes for those pensioners who allegedly want to make their life apart.
I have even read complaints about their use of our Public Health system when they have not contributed to it.


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## alexacohen

Hello,

What you say is true; but, of course, even truth can be seen in different ways.

Foreigners buying a home sweet home in Spain may feel attracted to live near people who, belonging to the same culture, would make them feel more at home, sweet home.

Retired people who are used to certain type of food, a certain way of living, who cannot speak a single word of Spanish feel more at ease when they see shops, people, cafeterias, banks which are "truly British". 

They do not want to leave the UK; they want to live as they have always lived; but in a better climate.

Other people prefer to integrate. There are many of them, and I know more than one owner of a very typical Spanish "tasca" who is British born and bred.

Authorities do not encourage integration. For one thing, they can´t forbid anyone to buy the house they want where they want.


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## Agró

I agree with everything that's been said so far. There are not many Britons where I live, presumably because the weather here is just as terrible as Britain's. While reading other posts I was wondering whether it would be the same if thousands of retired Spaniards left Spain for Britain. Do you think there would be integration? I don't think so. Learning other languages or getting used to different ways of living seems to be pretty hard at a certain age.


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## stevea

There seem to be double standards about this sort of thing in the UK. People complain about certain groups not wanting to integrate into society (think of Norman Tebbit's Cricket Test for example). We seem to think that setting up enclaves abroad however is perfectly OK. 

I'm not sure how much of this is down to UK attitudes or whether it has more to do with English speaking attitudes. The widespread use of English as a first or second language has prompted many to think that everyone will be able to accommodate them.


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## Chaska Ñawi

The same issue is true of many American enclaves in Mexico, along with the feeling at home that immigrants should adapt to American ways.

Resorts like those owned by Club Med take this situation/perspective to the farthest extreme.


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## stevea

Chaska Ñawi said:


> The same issue is true of many American enclaves in Mexico, along with the feeling at home that immigrants should adapt to American ways.
> 
> Resorts like those owned by Club Med take this situation/perspective to the farthest extreme.


 
It is a bad reflection on the English speaking countries isn't it. Are there similar enclaves full of say French or German nationals?


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## alexacohen

stevea said:


> It is a bad reflection on the English speaking countries isn't it. Are there similar enclaves full of say French or German nationals?


 
In Spain there are similar communities, usually German ones. 

Some of them (but not all) have earned the hostility of the native people; and with reason.

No one likes to walk in their own country and find a sign stating "SPANISH GO HOME", "NO SPANISH CUSTOMERS ACCEPTED", "ENTRANCE FORBIDDEN TO SPANISH". 

This land is our land.


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## Cintia&Martine

Hi,


stevea said:


> Are there similar enclaves full of say French nationals?


No, french enclaves there are not.
The big french immigration took place about 40 years ago and they had time to integrate .


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## stevea

alexacohen said:


> No one likes to walk in their own country and find a sing stating "SPANISH GO HOME", "NO SPANISH CUSTOMERS ACCEPTED", "ENTRANCE FORBIDDEN TO SPANISH".


 
Apalling! 

If this type of sign was put up in the UK the tabloid press would be going crazy.


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## Cabeza tuna

alexacohen said:


> In Spain there are similar communities, usually German ones.
> 
> Some of them (but not all) have earned the hostility of the native people; and with reason.
> 
> No one likes to walk in their own country and find a sing stating "SPANISH GO HOME", "NO SPANISH CUSTOMERS ACCEPTED", "ENTRANCE FORBIDDEN TO SPANISH".
> 
> This land is our land.


 
That is not illegal there? If someone do that here the store probably the people burn the store or something xD


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## Chaska Ñawi

alexacohen said:


> In Spain there are similar communities, usually German ones.
> 
> Some of them (but not all) have earned the hostility of the native people; and with reason.
> 
> No one likes to walk in their own country and find a sing stating "SPANISH GO HOME", "NO SPANISH CUSTOMERS ACCEPTED", "ENTRANCE FORBIDDEN TO SPANISH".
> 
> This land is our land.



Could you be more specific about the signs, please, Alexa?  I'm now intensely curious.

Thanks.


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## Miguelillo 87

Chaska Ñawi said:


> Could you be more specific about the signs, please, Alexa? I'm now intensely curious.
> 
> Thanks.


 
Chaska I'm only wondering, but I suppose it's like those signs in Mexico which state (Este hogar es católico no se acepta propaganda de ninguna otra religión o secta) This home is catholic we dont' accept any inormation about other religion or sect; so I suppose it's this way. Whit that it's supposed this people will go away.


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## silverdaizy

alexacohen said:


> In Spain there are similar communities, usually German ones.
> 
> Some of them (but not all) have earned the hostility of the native people; and with reason.
> 
> No one likes to walk in their own country and find a sing stating "SPANISH GO HOME", "NO SPANISH CUSTOMERS ACCEPTED", "ENTRANCE FORBIDDEN TO SPANISH".
> 
> This land is our land.


 
Where have you seen signs like that?!?


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## Mate

Moderator note:

Please remain calm and wait until Alexa is on-line again. There's no point in repeating the same question to someone who is not available at the moment.

Thanks.


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## Sepia

Cabeza tuna said:


> That is not illegal there? If someone do that here the store probably the people burn the store or something xD



Without knowing the specific Spanish laws I can tell for sure it is illegal. There are EU directives regulating these things.

All people behaving like that are not British. From what I have experienced,  they have their German, French and Scandinavian counterparts as well. However, you hardly notice the single Scandinavian nationalities because they are so few, but they have their luxury-ghettos too along the Andalusian coast.


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## ampurdan

In the village where I was born in the Costa Brava, there used to be a great community of French, Swiss and German tourists (British prefer to go to other places). I don't think there's anything as extreme as what other people has described in this thread, but it's true that each nationality has their own places where they like to go shop or go to eat or have a drink, but Spaniards and any other nationalities are usually welcome. We have many things to thank to tourists, because a great deal of our development during all these years could take place thanks to the money they left here. Of course some of them are bad mannered and quite idiot, but that's not exclusive of any country.


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## alexacohen

silverdaizy said:


> Where have you seen signs like that?!?


Arrecife, Islas Canarias. Exclusive for Germans. Tenerife, Canary Islands, exclusive for British people. Benalmádena, Málaga. Benidorm, Alicante. 

Of course these kind of signs are forbidden; as it is forbidden not to serve a "foreign" customer in a pub or a shop.

The signs don´t last long, of course. But the one we saw forbidding the entrance to a public beach that was "Germans Only" was put up every day during the fifteen days we stayed in Lanzarote.

Mind you, it´s just a minority - but those kinds of minorities are conspicuous, and the terrible thing is that they bring derogatory comments about all the Germans (or whatever they are) living in the area.

After all, stupid people do emigrate-inmigrate, too.

Oh, and by the way, I have never seen such a sign written in French.


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## ivanovic77

I must say that alexa's comment about signs banning the entrance of Spanish people has shocked me a bit. Being a Spaniard myself and residing in Catalonia (one of the most touristic regions in Spain), I don't remember hearing any of this on the TV news, and I'm sure that, if this was a common behaviour, it would have had a big impact on TV, so I want to believe those are isolated incidents.


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## stevea

The negative side of this thread shows the importance of trying to at least learn some of the language of the countries that you visit. The reasons why I like going to Spain are near enough, big enough, varied enough to keep returning and therefore worth the effort to with the language. 

I could see the attraction perhaps of being able to call on English speaking residents when you first arrive so that you can have help in unfamiliar circumstances but once over that hurdle, you should feel obliged to fit in.


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## Sepia

alexacohen said:


> ...
> The signs don´t last long, of course. But the one we saw forbidding the entrance to a public beach that was "Germans Only" was put up every day during the fifteen days we stayed in Lanzarote.
> 
> ...



I don't quite understand how this can be possible - public beaches are, as I know them, under the jurisdiction of the "Ayuntament". Don't tell me that a public servant put up that sign or refused to remove it, in case some unauthorized person put it up. 

Or is there a different explanation?


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## Broccolicious

Oh dear, aren't British people dreadful? We're sorry about this, and about the Empire, and about the weather here, and about everything else.

To respond to the original post:



stevea said:


> One of the main reasons for going to Spain would be to join in and integrate.


 
I suppose that's not true for everyone, even though others of us may find it odd and inappropriate. And to be brutally honest, I'd rather 'that type' of expat stayed in little ghetto-type developments - that way I can avoid them more easily!

I'm guessing that people who aren't interested in learning other languages are also unlikely to be interested in visiting these forums, so they're not here to defend themselves!


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## alexacohen

Sepia said:


> Don't tell me that a public servant put up that sign or refused to remove it, in case some unauthorized person put it up.


 
The silly residents put it up every morning, the authorities took it down, the residents put it up again and so on.

There was no need to put it up, anyway. One look at the people who colonized that beach, and it was enough to want to go to some other beach. Possibly the German one they had vacated.


> Originally Posted by *broccolicious*
> Oh dear, aren't British people dreadful?


I don´t know, I was not properly introduced to each and every person in the UK.


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## mirx

Maybe I little bit off topic but... a friend of mine also saw one of them signs in a "British-only" beach, in souther Spain.

Now, the ghettoism thing, I think is just normal and not limited to Spain. I've met some guys from English-speaking countries who moved to Spain with all the intention of integrating and starting off a new life, however the locals didn't seem to be very accommodating... and I understand this, people have lives and won't go out of their way just to make the newcomers feel like they are home.

Of course the above doesn't excuse anyone putting up hate/discriminatory signage.


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## clipper

mirx said:


> I've met some guys from English-speaking countries who moved to Spain with all the intention of integrating and starting off a new life, however the locals didn't seem to be very accommodating... and I understand this, people have lives and won't go out of their way just to make the newcomers feel like they are home.


 
I don't doubt that this could be true, but wouldn't the feelings on the integration of the natives have been prejudiced by their previous experiences ?

You don't say where this happened but given what we've read in this thread so far and from my personal experience, I would be very wary about relocating to the coast simply due to the precedent set my most of my fellow countrymen here in Spain. 

Cultural differences can play a part too, sometimes, to a non-spanish speaker the language can sound aggressive, maybe that played a part?

Here in Madrid the locals are far more ready to accept all nationalities (not just the British) but there are individuals who never will, as in all societies. Likewise I have known British people living long term in Madrid who don't have the "luxury" of the ghetto set ups that develop on the coasts, yet some of them were quite happy to struggle in their day to day lives without speaking Spanish and not watch TV, only go to the versión original cinemas etc. I personally could not do this as I would feel excluded, it also severely limits their job opportunities.


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## Wilma_Sweden

The double standards mentioned exist in Sweden, too: we complain about immigrants concentrating in certain neighbourhoods instead of integrating, and when we buy our retirement home in Spain, we look for Swedish 'enclaves' where we can live happily ever after with our Swedish neighbours,  meatballs and the occasional visit to IKEA... 

People who emigrate in hordes will always seek each others' company in the new country. It's the natural thing to do. I can't see anything terribly wrong with that as long as they don't invade the locals' space with silly discriminatory signs and other such anti-social behaviour.

Retired people who emigrate aren't that likely to integrate, as has been mentioned previously, and even if they stick to their own kind, at least they usually bring their own money from abroad and spend it in Spain, generating VAT money, and may even provide the odd extra job opportunity.  It's not like they're total leeches, are they? And what's more, while they are entitled to the same health care as the Spanish citizens, Spanish citizens in the UK, even tourists who haven't paid a penny of UK income tax, are still entitled to free UK health care, just to bring up one example. Isn't the EU wonderful?!

Let's make it clear: I'm mainly defending free movement within the EU and the right to settle where it pleases you most. I'm not defending anti-social behaviour. To settle in any country without even attempting to learn the local language at all is on the borderline to anti-social behaviour.

/Wilma


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## Sepia

mirx said:


> Maybe I little bit off topic but... a friend of mine also saw one of them signs in a "British-only" beach, in souther Spain.
> 
> Now, the ghettoism thing, I think is just normal and not limited to Spain. I've met some guys from English-speaking countries who moved to Spain with all the intention of integrating and starting off a new life, however the locals didn't seem to be very accommodating... and I understand this, people have lives and won't go out of their way just to make the newcomers feel like they are home.
> 
> Of course the above doesn't excuse anyone putting up hate/discriminatory signage.


 
Then again, it is always very easy to blame it on the locals when things don't work out. I mean, with the best of will, some people just don't seem to find the right rythm. And then they blame it on the locals when integrating doesn't work out. OK, locals may sometimes not be accomodating. But then again, some are, if you look the right places.


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## mirx

clipper said:


> I don't doubt that this could be true, but wouldn't the feelings on the integration of the natives have been prejudiced by their previous experiences ?
> 
> *I wouldn't know this, what I talked about wasn't rejection of the incomers, it was simply that the natives didn't care.*
> 
> You don't say where this happened but given what we've read in this thread so far and from my personal experience, I would be very wary about relocating to the coast simply due to the precedent set my most of my fellow countrymen here in Spain.
> 
> *Two happened in Barcelona, one more in Puebla, and one more is having a hard time deciding whether it was a good idea to move to Bogotá.*
> 
> Cultural differences can play a part too, sometimes, to a non-spanish speaker the language can sound aggressive, maybe that played a part?
> 
> *Whether agressive or not, language plays always a big part!, so do cultural differences, but hey. I am not talking about retirees moving down south to find milder climates and who couldn't care less about languages and about the people who speak them. I am talking about individuals who originally liked these countries and their people, food and language, and upon arrival found that it wasnt what they thought.*


 


Sepia said:


> Then again, it is always very easy to blame it on the locals when things don't work out. I mean, with the best of will, some people just don't seem to find the right rythm. And then they blame it on the locals when integrating doesn't work out. OK, locals may sometimes not be accomodating. But then again, some are, if you look the right places.


 
And then again, _it is always and has always been easier to blame it on those damn immigrants, if they don't like it here they are always free to go back to their countries_.

I don't want to be misunderstood, as I said above those are stories that happened to people I happen to know, but I also know many more happy stories where the people just fit in alright in the new country. I am also not taking sides, I am simply passing on what I know.

I do agree with your last comment Sepia, there's always someone somewhere who will be very accommodating.


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## Lusitania

As Alexa has said, we've got these "exclusive" places also in Portugal.

The British in the North of Portugal are integrated, they've been here for ages, with the Oporto wine and all. In the center they are usually young people and mingle quite well and there aren't any problem with them.

In the south there are places that there isn't a word written in Portuguese. In the Algarve there are villages that are mainly British. These doesn't happen with the other EU communities such as French, German and Spanish. Or Dutch.

They've tried get some privete beaches for themselves or their resorts but there was a total ban on it by the Government.
This happens especially in the Algarve. People wouldn't complaint but since the Maddie case they aren't that tolerant as before. Hopefully this will improve.


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## Wilma_Sweden

Lusitania said:


> They've tried get some privete beaches for themselves or their resorts but there was a total ban on it by the Government.
> This happens especially in the Algarve. People wouldn't complaint but since the Maddie case they aren't that tolerant as before. Hopefully this will improve.


I am not sure what you mean. Are you saying that the local Portuguese people in Algarve are less tolerant to the English *after* the Maddie case? Why would that tragedy make them *less* tolerant?

/Wilma


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## Hulalessar

Wilma_Sweden said:


> Why would that tragedy make them *less* tolerant?


 
Probably because the British press tried to make out that the Portuguese authorities were incompetent to deal with the matter.


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## felicia

Sepia said:


> Without knowing the specific Spanish laws I can tell for sure it is illegal. There are EU directives regulating these things.
> 
> All people behaving like that are not British. From what I have experienced, they have their German, French and Scandinavian counterparts as well. However, you hardly notice the single Scandinavian nationalities because they are so few, but they have their luxury-ghettos too along the Andalusian coast.


 
And not only in Andalucia!  In Alfas del Pi and Albir/Altea in prov. Alicante the Norwegians own their schools, church and shops, and the local spanish police very obligingly clear the streets for the national day parade (17th may)  I know Norwegians who have lived there for over 20 years without being able to say more than "cerveza, una mas" in Spanish.  And are not embarrassed by it!  And the same people probably make a fuss about how the other national immigrants to Norway don't learn Norwegian!!
Shame on them!  Felicia


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## stevea

Very interesting article on the Guardian web site about this which talks about the problems being faced as a result of the credit crunch and exchange rate issues. There are some genuine sad cases but many of the victims of this disruption are just opportunists by the look of it who have made no attempt to integrate.


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