# Canada/Quebec



## Poetic Device

In my meanderings throughout this and other sites I have noticed that Canada and Quebec are usually listed seperately.  I am now wondering why.  I always thought that Quebec was part of Canada.  Am I wrong?  Is there some form of unspoked dislike between the two?


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## Outsider

What kind of sites are we talking about? About languages?


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## Poetic Device

I am mainly looking for things like traditions and holidays for my muticultural committee at work.  Every time that i go on a site that has something to do with that The two are listed seperately.


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## modus.irrealis

You're not wrong -- Quebec is still part of Canada (although there is an separatist movement and two referendums have been held in Quebec on whether it wishes to separate). As for dislike between Quebec and the rest of Canada, there's probably some depending on who you talk to, but there's dislike between Ontario and the rest of Canada, or currently between Alberta and the rest of Canada too. There's always dislike. 

With holidays, the thing in Canada is that different provinces have different holidays, so perhaps the site you go to has enough Quebec interest that specifically Quebec holidays are also indicated. Roughly the same is true with traditions, although Quebec, with its French heritage, can seem more distinct.


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## Outsider

Quebec is mostly Catholic, unlike the rest of Canada. Could that have anything to do with it?


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## dudoid

Outsider said:


> Quebec is mostly Catholic, unlike the rest of Canada. Could that have anything to do with it?


Actually, I don't think that is true about the rest of Canada.
According to the CIA handbook (for the whole of Canada): Roman Catholic 42.6%, Protestant 23.3%, other Christian 4.4%, Muslim 1.9%, other and unspecified 11.8%, none 16%.
Remember that many of the "British" colonists were Irish or Scottish.


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## Outsider

You are right, although Québec is the second most populous province of Canada, and the one with the greatest percentage of Catholics by far. (Source.)

BTW, welcome to the forum.


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## Fernando

As far as I know, Quebec nationalists claim they are a different country based mainly on language and French heritage.

As said before, they have lost every referendum on the topic.


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## Chaska Ñawi

Fernando said:


> As said before, they have lost every referendum on the topic.



However, the last referendum was won on an _extremely _slim margin.  The issue will return.


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## don maico

Is it not in their interests to remain part of Canada?


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## Brioche

don maico said:


> Is it not in their interests to remain part of Canada?


 
The Parti québécois is rather like a spoiled adolescent, who wants be an adult [maître chez lui] when it suits him, and still get mommy to pay the bills.

The phrase "What's yours is mine, and what's mine is my own" springs to mind.


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## Fernando

Chaska Ñawi said:


> However, the last referendum was won on an _extremely _slim margin.  The issue will return.



I guess they will repeat it again and again. When they win, I guess the issue will not return.


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## Poetic Device

Fernando said:


> As far as I know, Quebec nationalists claim they are a different country based mainly on language and French heritage.
> 
> As said before, they have lost every referendum on the topic.


But wait, I though all of Canada had French heritage...Strong heritage at that...

????????????


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## .   1

Sydney and Australia would probably be listed separately with respect to cultural traditions and the like. Sydney is different to Perth or Melbourne but all are Australian so some form of identification would be required.

Sydney and Melbourne are the two largest cities in Australia and there has always been competition between the two as to which city is 'best' but it is only relevant to those living in Melbourne or Sydney (or should that be Sydney or Melbourne). I suspect that this happens all over the place.

.,,


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## modus.irrealis

Poetic Device said:


> But wait, I though all of Canada had French heritage...Strong heritage at that...
> 
> ????????????



It depends on the region. Southern Ontario, where I'm from, e.g., has no French tradition (although some individuals might). Looking at the census figures for mother tongue in Toronto, it's:

English: 2.7 million
French: 63 000
Other: 1.8 million

And about 400 000 claim to know French, which is not that many. Ontario is not even officially bilingual even though there are French communities in Northern and Eastern Ontario. And I think that further west, outside of some areas in Manitoba, the French content is probably even less.

Can I ask you where you got the impression about Canada from, though, because it seems to be very common. In my experience, French people (from France) are often surprised to find out how not bilingual Toronto is, but I've never really understood why.

And about Quebec nationality in general, I was very shocked to find out how little emotional appeal Canada has for Quebeckers, whether they're federalist (wanting to stay in Canada) or separatist. Sometimes the whole question seems to be between those who want to have a separate country altogether and those who want an EU-type arrangement with the rest of Canada.


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## Brioche

Poetic Device said:


> But wait, I though all of Canada had French heritage...Strong heritage at that...
> 
> ????????????


 
In British Columbia, about 0.2% have French as their home language.

When I was in Vancouver, one of my cousins claimed that more people work for the French section of CBC radio in Vancouver than actually listen to its programs.


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## Poetic Device

modus.irrealis said:


> Can I ask you where you got the impression about Canada from, though, because it seems to be very common. In my experience, French people (from France) are often surprised to find out how not bilingual Toronto is, but I've never really understood why.
> quote]
> 
> It's actually something that I was taught in school when I was in about the second or third grade.  I was taught that Canada, as far as their provinces were concerned, were basically like the United States.  Each Province is like a state and Canada is the country that united them.  By that logic I just always thought that all of Canada had the same culture, holidays and so on.  I know now that it is wrong to think that.....


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## french4beth

Fernando said:


> As far as I know, Quebec nationalists claim they are a different country based mainly on language and French heritage.


Quebec doesn't claim that they are a different country, but some feel that it would be a good idea to separate from the rest of Canada and become some sort of a 'homeland' for all French Canadians.

As a former Quebec resident, I don't think that separatists have a true grasp of what being a separate country entails (military, borders, etc.). They think that they can walk away from all debt, yet still be automatically included in all treaties and agreements (NATO, NAFTA, etc.). 

And one of the most hard-core separatists that I know, my sister-in-law, admitted one day that she didn't _really_ want to separate, but just wanted more recognition and power for French Canadians. The French had a really tough time of it under English rule, and it will take a long time for people to move on. There was definitely a lot of subjugation and exploitation. In Quebec, there was a lot of English Protestant land-owners, and many French Catholic workers & farmers, thus the religious divide.

Most of the separatists that I heard about were in professions that would be essential to the province/country regardless of what the country's name or political orientation would be: teachers, doctors, nurses, government employees, etc.  Many businesses have fled Quebec due to the economic uncertainty of a possible separation.  Personally, I don't think that a separation would ever happen.

As an English speaking resident of Quebec, there was occasional hostility if someone heard me speaking English; since I'm American, I think that I had an easier time of it compared to some of my English Canadian friends.


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## Poetic Device

Why do they hate English speakers so???


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## PedroAznar

Poetic Device said:


> Why do they hate English speakers so???



I don't think they "hate" English speakers but remember they're surrounded on all sides by English language and culture, thus, some of them probably feel encircled and their language under threat.


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## modus.irrealis

Poetic Device said:


> It's actually something that I was taught in school when I was in about the second or third grade. I was taught that Canada, as far as their provinces were concerned, were basically like the United States. Each Province is like a state and Canada is the country that united them. By that logic I just always thought that all of Canada had the same culture, holidays and so on. I know now that it is wrong to think that.....


Thanks for the answer. That does make sense. The provinces are like states, more powerful in some ways (control over education and health care, e.g.) and less in other ways (criminal law is the same across the country), but you're right that what unifies us is different -- I'm not even sure what that is anymore, though, but outside of Toronto it's probably a shared hatred of Toronto .



Poetic Device said:


> Why do they hate English speakers so???


That's been some people's experiences but not mine -- in all my visits to Quebec, when I used English people didn't mind -- although I have only been to Montreal...



french4beth said:


> Quebec doesn't claim that they are a different country, but some feel that it would be a good idea to separate from the rest of Canada and become some sort of a 'homeland' for all French Canadians.


It's interesting that you got the feeling that it was for all French Canadians, because from my outsider perspective it always felt like a movement for the Québécois, and was neither extended to other francophones nor desired by them.



> As a former Quebec resident, I don't think that separatists have a true grasp of what being a separate country entails (military, borders, etc.). They think that they can walk away from all debt, yet still be automatically included in all treaties and agreements (NATO, NAFTA, etc.).


You're right about the consequences of separation, but I take a more cynical view that the Separatist movement presented things in a way that masked the problems they knew would occur.



> Personally, I don't think that a separation would ever happen.


I hope you're right, not just because my Canada includes Quebec (even my favourite hockey team is Montreal), but I always fear it would have a domino effect across Canada. The problem as I see it is because of the absurb way the provinces are drawn up, it's a very asymmetric confederation, and some provinces may very well be better off on their own especially if it means having closer ties with the US.

As for how likely it is, the odd thing I've seen is that after "the ethnic vote" was supposedly the reason for the last referendum to fail, many of these "ethnics" seem to be separation-friendly, or at least, like I said before, lacking an emotional connection with Canada. I think having the wrong federal government at the wrong time could very well lead to a successful referendum.


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## Chaska Ñawi

Poetic Device said:


> Why do they hate English speakers so???



I've spent a lot of time living in Quebec and travelling through it, and have always been treated with courtesy, friendliness and helpfulness.  My French is fairly good, but on one occasion this summer I met my Waterloo - an old man with badly fitting dentures and a thick Kamouraska accent.  I was mortified at not being able to understand a single word.  Instead of taking offence, the man hunted up a mechanic .... who used broken English to explain things to me.  

This is symbolic of the province - the province has convoluted laws about English signs and even more convoluted laws about English education, but the people almost always go out of their way to help English-speaking tourists.  That help extends to using English whenever they think it necessary.  They have an ability (not always shared by the residents of the other provinces) to differentiate between provincial politics and provincial residents.


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## Chipolata

As a quebecker, I do not hate English speaking canadians. I've been travelling across canada and everybody have been very kind to me. (I do think, however, that there is a rivality between Quebec and Ontario (batailles de clocher). I think it's normal, since we're are neighbours and we don't know each other very well.) I just feel I'm quebecker before feeling that I'm canadian. For me it's more a matter of identity: canadians are those English-speaking guys. 
As for the separation, I have not resolved the issue yet! 
When I'm in Quebec city, I get a little upset when people don't even try to speak French (bonjour, merci, little kind words like that). 
I know I'm a little late for this conversation but I thought maybe you would like to have a quebecker's quick opinion!


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## blindsay

Nationalism is still very strong in Quebec.  

French actually was the original 'European' language in virtually all of Canada, as the fur trade workers were primarily Metis (Mixed French/First Nation). In fact, the famous explorer David Thompson gave weekly sermons in French.

However, actual large-scale settlement of the West happened much later, and the truth is more British Columbians have distant American heritage than English-Canadian. Most the miners were Yanks.

However, I wish more Quebecois would realize there is French Canadian history and heritage outside Quebec, especially in Manitoba. Not to mention that most of Quebec territory actually has more cree than French. And the majority of them _did not_ support seperatism in the referendums, and said the vast Northen territory of Quebec could not be included in any independent Quebec.


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## Chipolata

blindsay said:


> However, I wish more Quebecois would realize there is French Canadian history and heritage outside Quebec, especially in Manitoba. Not to mention that most of Quebec territory actually has more cree than French. And the majority of them _did not_ support seperatism in the referendums, and said the vast Northen territory of Quebec could not be included in any independent Quebec.


 
You are right, Blindsay. However, for me it's more a question of identity than just a matter of language or geography. I think there ir also the question of culture. I visited Acadia a year ago and I saw that they are actually living in French as Quebec people do. I therefore realised that there really is a life in French outside Quebec. However, I don't know a lot of what they do except for those people coming to work to Quebec. I have no idea of what French-manitobans do. 
In theatre I like Robert Lepage; I like the music of the Cowboys Fringants; I loved the film C.R.A.Z.Y. by Jean-Marc Vallée; I read the books of Jacques Poulin. etc. (I also like the music of the acadian Marie-Jo Thério but since she lives in Montreal I don't know if we can count her as coming from outside Quebec) These things are part of my world and my personnal culture. 
I don't know what English-speaking canadians or French canadians outside Quebec do, so I don't feel I'm part of their world. I don't know what Cree do either. I suppose this is why we don't feel we are canadians (this and a lot of other reasons like language and politics. Religion is not very important nowadays but it was in our past). 
In conclusion, I do not hate English-canadians since I think they are very nice people. I just don't share their culture, as I don't share the culture of French-canadians living outside Quebec. I am ready to discover it, though. 
As for the separation, I don't know yet. I am still looking for information and arguments. So, thanks for yours!


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## blindsay

B.C. and Quebec have more in common politically than you think. We're the opposite of Alberta, resent Ontario, and are more socially progressive and anti-war in general.  There are a lot of differences throughout English Canada.  I lot of British Columbians would say they have far more in common with Quebec than we do with Newfoundland, despite the difference in language.  (Not that we don't love Newfoundland).  

I like Jean Leloup.

And don't forget that the majority of Prime Ministers come from Quebec. We know that you're culture is totally distinct, and we understand that this is why there is nationalism. It makes sense when you look at it that way.

But from English Canada's perspective, the biggest problem we have with it is that Quebec it too much a part of our own identity, even if we're not part of it. From Laurier to Trudeau to Chretien to Maurice Richard. Love it or hate it, you can't take that away from Canada.

And that's the dillema.


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## dtcarney

One of my good friends is from Quebec and from him it sounds like there is quite a divide between Quebec and the rest of Canada.  He has also talked about arivalry between Quebec and Ontario. Thats only one person though.  Best regards to all of my neighbors to the north.


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## deGerlaise

Have visited Québec a few times and have never had a problem with my Englishness. I have never had the feeling that Québécois 'hate' Canada. Rather a light word than a dark word - They 'love' Québec. A lot of Canadians are fascinated by Québec and would be disheartened if Québec decided to leave Canada. I can't imagine that the troops wouldn't march in and prevent them from leaving. But, I don't think that most Canadians, whether they are in Québec or the rest of Canada realize what a truly huge task it would be to separate the two. It would be the nation equivalent of separating conjoined twins. It would take a decade before things started to get ratified in Ottawa and Québec.  
Québec, until recently, has been a pretty homogeneous society. Totally white European from a fairly small geographic region within France. Of course there is a little blurring around the edges. This is in direct contrast to the rest of Canada which is turning into a real hodge-podge. I guess this contributes to their feelings of uniqueness and separateness. I can understand these sentiments but it is always surprising that some Quebecers don't seem to realize how completely they are, a part of the history of all of Canada and therefore a part of the entire nation. There are millions of Canadians who have some ancestral roots in Quebec (including myself) even though their names may be Smith, or Kowalski. There are French communities in virtually ever province. I'm not sure of the exceptions. PEI? NFLD? BC? French was the first European language heard in most regions of this nation, and Quebec continues to have a huge effect on the way we do things politically and culturally. For the last 40 years the Prime Ministers of this nation (with intermittent exceptions and until recently) have been from Québec. 
Why bother separating for all the trouble it's worth?  But then I don't really have a say in the matter, although I do have a stake in it. 
Sorry, but I believe it's 'maître chez nous'.


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## Chipolata

blindsay said:


> B.C. and Quebec have more in common politically than you think. We're the opposite of Alberta, resent Ontario, and are more socially progressive and anti-war in general. There are a lot of differences throughout English Canada. I lot of British Columbians would say they have far more in common with Quebec than we do with Newfoundland, despite the difference in language. (Not that we don't love Newfoundland).


 
I must say I visited BC 5 years ago and I felt in love with it. If I would choose to live in English Canada I think it would probably be Victoria or Vancouver. People were all very friendly and yes, I had some good conversations about Ontario!!!

Jean Leloup does not exist anymore: now we have Jean Leclerc and a brand new album! 

I didn't know what was the position of English Canadians about Quebec. I thought you actually hated us for speaking French. This is the impression I got from people I met in Ontario. 

I would also like to make a quick survey among English Canadians following this conversation: who correctly speaks French here? 

I would like to mention that I am pretty proud that Quebec is not a homogeneous society anymore. A lot of cultures make great contributions to our culture! (Corneille and Dany Laferrière, for example. I'm sorry I can't give dozens of examples: I'm not living in Canada anymore). 

Please forgive my rough English: I have begun working on it only two months ago (with a Scottish girl)!


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