# Indo-European directions



## CyrusSH

Diakonov in "On the Original Home of the Speakers of Indo-European" says "Avestan _paurva_ means "forward, south", while Sanskrit _purva_ means "forward, east", because the Proto-Iranians migrated to the south while the Proto-Indians migrated to the east."

What about Germanic *austra* (east) and Latin *auster* (south), does it also mean the Latin-speaking people migrated to the south and Proto-Germanic people migrated to the east?! From the same PIE root, Avestan _ušastara_ also means "east".


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## berndf

In classical Latin _australis _means _south_, _auster _means _Scirocco_. So _australis _means literally_ the direction from which the Scirocco blows. _Since in Italy the Scirocco blows from the SE, this might explain the shift in meaning in Latin. It might originally have been associated with the east and got its name from that but later became association with the south. In the related word _aurora_ (_dawn_) the original meaning was still preserved.


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## sotos

I don't know if it is relevant at all, but in Gr. νότος (south) and νώτος (back) are very similar.


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## CyrusSH

And in Avestan _apaxtara_ means both "north" and "backward", and in Persian it means "west".

Is there a proto-IE word for west? In Avestan it is *daošatara*.


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## PersoLatin

Bactria as a region, is in the (north) east of Iran, yet, the word is related to apaxtara and bâxtar باختر which in current Persian means, west.

Could this mean the IE's as a whole (or just the Indo-Iranian branch) started out in an area that is currently Tajikistan, where their west, would have been the present day Afghanistan, hence the given name Bactria (or west)? Otherwise why is a place in the east or Iran, is called 'west'. For those in the UK, it will like calling Essex, Wessex.

And those who eventually moved eastwards and settled in the present day Iran (say, to the east of the Caspian), were stuck with that name, and so are Iranians now.

Maybe this is an already established fact.


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## fdb

bāxtar has nothing to do with Bactria. “Bactria” is continued by Arabic and Persian Balkh.


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## Gavril

In some cases, the "handedness"-directions have turned into cardinal directions:

Welsh _de _/ _deau_ "south" is cognate with Latin _dexter_, Greek _dexiós_ "right", and _gogledd_ "north" is from _go_- "under" + _cledd_ "left".


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## CyrusSH

PersoLatin said:


> Bactria as a region, is in the (north) east of Iran, yet, the word is related to apaxtara and bâxtar باختر which in current Persian means, west.
> 
> Could this mean the IE's as a whole (or just the Indo-Iranian branch) started out in an area that is currently Tajikistan, where their west, would have been the present day Afghanistan, hence the given name Bactria (or west)? Otherwise why is a place in the east or Iran, is called 'west'. For those in the UK, it will like calling Essex, Wessex.
> 
> And those who eventually moved eastwards and settled in the present day Iran (say, to the east of the Caspian), were stuck with that name, and so are Iranians now.
> 
> Maybe this is an already established fact.



Bactria was a region in the north (east) of Iran but Bakhtaran was also a region in the west of Iran, the important point is about the meaning of "back", not "north" or "west", for the people who migrate from the north, the northern lands are located at their back, and for the people who migrate from the west, the western lands are located at their back.


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## PersoLatin

fdb said:


> bāxtar has nothing to do with Bactria. “Bactria” is continued by Arabic and Persian Balkh.



So balx/balkh is not a corruption of bāxtar?

As for Bactria meaning 'the lands in the west', the usual online sources must then be wrong, incl. Dehkhoda.


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## sotos

Gavril said:


> Welsh _de _/ _deau_ "south" is cognate with Latin _dexter_, Greek _dexiós_ "right",


But sounds like the Greek δύω (verb for _sunset_ <> δύση (west)).
Just now I noticed that the Gr. πρω (_pro)_ means _morning _and is almost like προ (before) .


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## PersoLatin

CyrusSH said:


> and for the people who migrate from the west, the western lands are located at their back.


I know you haven't said this, but is it correct to assume you may be implying, that Indo-Iranians came from the west?

And if that's universally correct, what sotos said means the Greeks migrated from the south?


sotos said:


> I don't know if it is relevant at all, but in Gr. νότος (south) and νώτος (back) are very similar.


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## fdb

PersoLatin said:


> So balx/balkh is not a corruption of bāxtar?
> 
> As for Bactria meaning 'the lands in the west', the usual online sources must then be wrong, incl. Dehkhoda.




“Bactria” is Avestan bāxδī-. The ancestor of New Persian bāxtar is Avestan apāxtara-. So they are totally different words.

Dehkhoda was a great expert on Classical Persian, but he did not know anything about Old Iranian languages.


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## PersoLatin

There are also occident and orient, which are PIE words meaning falling and rising (of the sun)


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## CyrusSH

fdb said:


> bāxtar has nothing to do with Bactria. “Bactria” is continued by Arabic and Persian Balkh.



Balkh actually relates to Sanskrit _Bahlika_, Old Persian _Baxtri_ (Bactria) was the name of a satrapy, like Uvarazmiya (Chorasmia/Khwarezm), not just a city.


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## PersoLatin

CyrusSH said:


> Uvarazmiya (Chorasmia/Khwarezm), not just a city.


is Uvara of Uvarasmia, congnate with xâvar خاور (east)?


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## CyrusSH

PersoLatin said:


> I know you haven't said this, but is it correct to assume you may be implying, that Indo-Iranians came from the west?
> 
> And if that's universally correct, what sotos said means the Greeks migrated from the south?



The original land of Indo-Iranians can be considered to be in the north Caspian sea, first proto-Indians (Indo-Aryans) were separated and came to the northern part of Middle East, in the second millennium BC the strong influence of proto-Indian culture can be clearly seen in the Mittani culture, then they migrated to the east and reached modern Pakistan and northern India.

But proto-Iranian culture was formed in the original land, from the northeast of Caspian sea, a group of them migrated to the south but another group, like Persians, came from the west.

Similar things could happen about other Indo-European peoples, like proto-Greeks.


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## fdb

CyrusSH said:


> Balkh actually relates to Sanskrit _Bahlika_, Old Persian _Baxtri_ (Bactria) was the name of a satrapy, like Uvarazmiya (Chorasmia/Khwarezm), not just a city.



Do have a look here:
https://www.academia.edu/13236335/باختر_باخذی_بلخ


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## Gavril

sotos said:


> But sounds like the Greek δύω (verb for _sunset_ <> δύση (west)).



It's a different word. The older form of the Welsh word for "south"/"right" was _deheu_ < *_deksewo_-.


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## CyrusSH

fdb said:


> “Bactria” is Avestan bāxδī-. The ancestor of New Persian bāxtar is Avestan apāxtara-. So they are totally different words.
> 
> Dehkhoda was a great expert on Classical Persian, but he did not know anything about Old Iranian languages.



Avestan bāxδī or pākhtī is actually the name of a region in the east of Afghanistan, Herodotus also mentions the land of Pactya in the south of Bactria and the east of Arachosia, this region has still the same name.


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## CyrusSH

PersoLatin said:


> is Uvara of Uvarasmia, congnate with xâvar خاور (east)?



It is really very possible, the original name can be read as خاور زمین (land of the east), of course as you know خاور actually means "sunrise".


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## fdb

PersoLatin said:


> is Uvara of Uvarasmia, congnate with xâvar خاور (east)?



Choresmia is Avestan xʷāirizam-, from *hwāra- “low” and zam- “land”. It is the low-lying land in the alluvial plain of the Oxus and Yaxartes.


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## PersoLatin

Duped by appearances twice, not good , must speed up my Avestan script learning.
Thanks fdb.


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## CyrusSH

fdb said:


> Choresmia is Avestan xʷāirizam-, from *hwāra- “low” and zam- “land”. It is the low-lying land in the alluvial plain of the Oxus and Yaxartes.



Source please for hwāra- “low”, of course there is a similar folk etymology which says the same things, but by considering the meaning change of the Persian word _xwar_ (mean, abject) to the meaning of "of low birth" and then "low" in New Persian.


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## PersoLatin

Could  hwāra- “low”, be the same as خوار xavâr (pronounced xâr) which means 'low'?

Although mainly to describe someone's (low) personality or their lack(low) of fortune/luck/thinking/attitude.


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