# Manger à tous les râteliers



## Spogett

Hi!

I'm reading Les Trois Mosquetaires by Dumas and I came across the phrase 'Vous mangez à tous les rateliers'.

What does it mean? Is it something like, you keep all your options open?

Thanks,

Lizzie xXx


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## deliadame

It literally means "accept food from anyone who offers you some".
More generally we use it to describe people who take advantage from different sources even if these sources are opposite. It conveys a sense of being a parasite and a hypocrit at the same time.


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## edwingill

you run with the hare and hunt with the hounds


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## deliadame

Thank you edwingill, I didn't know the English for it, I'll remember it ;-)


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## edwingill

to have a finger in every pie. I am not sure about my previous submission


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## MonsieurAquilone

Welcome to the forums Spogett, I agree with edwingill.


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## kertek

Hello,

For me, "to have a finger in every pie" is more about being involved in lots of (possibly contradictory or hypocritical) activities.

Collins Robert suggests "to cash in from all sides" - I think this is much closer.


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## edwingill

I found this sentence before *Manger a tous les rateliers*: Mon cher, soyez mousquetaire ou abbé. Soyez l'un ou l'autre, mais pas l'un et l'autre, reprit Porthos. Tenez, Athos vous l'a dit encore l'autre jour : With this context, I revert to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds


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## Gardefeu

> I found this sentence before *Manger a tous les rateliers*: Mon cher, soyez mousquetaire ou abbé. Soyez l'un ou l'autre, mais pas l'un et l'autre, reprit Porthos. Tenez, Athos vous l'a dit encore l'autre jour : With this context, I revert to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds


  Jolly well done, Edwin!


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## edwingill

I found the English translation on the Web  "My dear fellow, be a Musketeer or an abbe.  Be one or the other,
but not both,"  replied Porthos.  "You know what Athos told you
the other day; *you eat at everybody's mess*.I think this translation is unique to The Three Musketeers. i have not heard of this expression before


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## carolineR

edwingill said:
			
		

> you run with the hare and hunt with the hounds


personnellement, je trouve que cette expression correspond exactement au français "je suis oiseau, voyez mes ailes, je suis souris, vivent les rats !" qui a le mérite de conserver la comparaison animalière


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## Spogett

Thanks everyone, all of the translations make sense.

Anymore tricky phrases and I'll let you know, but it's going well so far!

Spogett xXx


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## sandera

Hi,
Can you  give a bit more of the story where the line fits in? As a novice at French...I am thinking along the lines of.."you eat with all ...the...or "you eat every...? Can't find exactly what *rateliers* is.
S.


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## timpeac

How about "you prostitute your devotions"?


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## Cath.S.

carolineR said:
			
		

> personnellement, je trouve que cette expression correspond exactement au français "je suis oiseau, voyez mes ailes, je suis souris, vivent les rats !" qui a le mérite de conserver la comparaison animalière


Cette expression, qui vient d'une fable de La Fontaine, _la chauve-souris et les deux belettes_, a cependant le défaut d'être très rarement employée (à titre indicatif, 23 résultats dans Google), contrairement à _run with the hare and hunt with the hounds._



			
				Timpeac said:
			
		

> How about "you prostitute your devotions"?


Ta traduction est beaucoup plus littéraire que l'original, àma ; _manger à tous les râteliers_ est très banal. Bernie me dit, « banal-pop. »


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## ChiMike

sandera said:
			
		

> Hi,
> Can you give a bit more of the story where the line fits in? As a novice at French...I am thinking along the lines of.."you eat with all ...the...or "you eat every...? Can't find exactly what *rateliers* is.
> S.


 
Le râtelier is where you put the product of râteler which is done with  un râteau.

It's a feed-rack in a stable (une écurie) or a cowshed (cow-barn) (une étable - surprise - another little false friend - and une étable à cochons - a pigsty). You rake up the hay (râteler le foin) with a rake (râteau) and give it to the horses (or dairy cows - les vâches laitières) in their feed racks - râteliers. To avoid conflicts among them, each one gets his or her own, just as it gets its own stall (sa stalle). 

Only pigs are left to belly up to a trough (une auge) where they receive their swill or slops (la pâtée! - word now used for dog-food or cat-food), although sheep and goats are usually fed their food (dry) from a common receptable - la mangeoire - the manger. Cows (but not bulls) will also eat from a manger - but they don't like it and it doesn't keep them calm for milking (la traite - from traire). If possible, you want them to be engaged with the product of their first stomachs (the rumen - le rumen from the Latin) - chewing their cud (mâcher le bol alimentaire) - en ruminant - which is what ruminant animals do - although in English and in French, people do it too.


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## timpeac

And as Thérèse Desqueyroux said so well "c'était moi, l'auge".


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## Nicomon

I doubt that this is the expression you're looking for, but I googled
*"mange à tous les rateliers" + english*  and found this on a bilingual Canadian website:

Quel opportunisme du chef du Parti québécois qui *mange à tous les râteliers. *

Such expediency on the part of a leader *who slurps at everyone's trough*.


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## carolineR

Si je puis me permettre, et sans vouloir aucunement dénigrer l'excellente traduction d'





			
				edwingill said:
			
		

> you run with the hare and hunt with the hounds


 qui me paraît excellente, il me semble cependant que cette dernière correspond exactement à quelqu'un qui *joue double jeu* puisqu'il n'y a que deux camps, celui des lièvres et celui des chiens, alors que l'expression *manger à tous les râteliers* renvoie bien à quelqu'un qui profite de multiples sources de revenus. Dans cette optique, *to have a finger in every pie*, toujours d'Edwingill, le *cash in from all sides *ou le *slurps at everyone's through* me paraissent mieux convenir...  moi, finasser ? que nenni !


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## Nicomon

carolineR said:
			
		

> Si je puis me permettre, et sans vouloir aucunement dénigrer l'excellente traduction d' qui me paraît excellente, il me semble cependant que cette dernière correspond exactement à quelqu'un qui *joue double jeu* puisqu'il n'y a que deux camps, celui des lièvres et celui des chiens, alors que l'expression *manger à tous les râteliers* renvoie bien à quelqu'un qui profite de multiples sources de revenus. [/SIZE]



La suggestion d'Edgwingwill ne va peut-être pas tout à fait ici mais elle est *parfaite*... pour traduire l'expression "*ménager la chèvre et le chou*", qui faisait l'objet d'un fil hier.


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## Aoyama

I wonder if *to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds* is close to : *aller dans le sens du courant* , something like "to go along with the crowd" ...


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## timpeac

It might help to have a bit more context on this one. Depending on what is really meant it could even be "you'll turn up to the opening of an envelope", eg if there's something free to be had, you're there!


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## edwingill

my submission 6 for further context: I found this sentence before *Manger a tous les rateliers*: Mon cher, soyez mousquetaire ou abbé. Soyez l'un ou l'autre, mais pas l'un et l'autre, reprit Porthos. Tenez, Athos vous l'a dit encore l'autre jour : With this context, I revert to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds


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## timpeac

edwingill said:
			
		

> my submission 6 for further context: I found this sentence before *Manger a tous les rateliers*: Mon cher, soyez mousquetaire ou abbé. Soyez l'un ou l'autre, mais pas l'un et l'autre, reprit Porthos. Tenez, Athos vous l'a dit encore l'autre jour : With this context, I revert to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds


Yes, I agree.


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## Nicomon

timpeac said:
			
		

> Yes, I agree.


 
I'm sorry to say that I don't. The same extract (see Edwin's post #10) was translated as "You eat at everybody's mess" 

The translator rendered the idea of "multiple". In your extract, râteliers does not refer to "be a musketeer or an abbe". 

I second CarolineR opinion (post #19)

On the other hand... "run with the hare and hunt with the hounds" (chercher à plaire à tout le monde) really *does* translate "ménager la chèvre et le chou", as can be found in various proverb websites.


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## edwingill

Petit Robert gives this definition: Manger à tous les râteliers : tirer profit de tous les aspects d'une situation, même en servant des intérêts opposés (cf. Jouer sur tous les tableaux*)


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## Nicomon

edwingill said:
			
		

> Petit Robert gives this definition: Manger à tous les râteliers : tirer profit de tous les aspects d'une situation, même en servant des intérêts opposés (cf. Jouer sur tous les tableaux*)



There again... the idea of *tous*.   Translated in Robert & Collins as "Cash in on *all* sides"... already suggested by Caroline.


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## timpeac

Nicomon said:
			
		

> I'm sorry to say that I don't. The same extract (see Edwin's post #10) was translated as "You eat at everybody's mess"
> 
> The translator rendered the idea of "multiple". In your extract, râteliers does not refer to "be a musketeer or an abbe".
> 
> I second CarolineR opinion (post #19)
> 
> On the other hand... "run with the hares and hunt with the hounds" (jouer double jeu) really *does* translate "ménager la chèvre et le chou", as can be found in various proverb websites.


I don't really follow what you're saying here -

I would say that the extract Edwin quoted _does_ show that the râteliers refers to be a musketeer or a priest. However, on top of that, I don't think "to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds" means you are necessarily talking about only 2 options despite the wording. It's not meant to be taken literally in that sense I believe. If someone told me "he runs with the hare and hunts with the hounds" I wouldn't immediately think that he is friendly with only 2 distinct and possibly antagonistic groups. Note that just because you say "hare" in the singualar and "hounds" in the plural it doesn't mean that there are two groups one of which is made up of only one individual whilst the other has many.


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## Nicomon

timpeac said:
			
		

> I don't really follow what you're saying here -
> 
> I would say that the extract Edwin quoted _does_ show that the râteliers refers to be a musketeer or a priest. .


 
Vous n'avez pas compris, parce que je m'exprime mieux en français qu'en anglais. 

Dans l'extrait dont il est question ici, Porthos dit à Aramis "be one or the other, not both" (make a choice). Et lui rappelle qu'Athos lui a dit l'autre jour "vous mangez à tous les râteliers" (all). Deux personnages, deux idées. 

In my opinion, the translator rendered it perfectly as "You eat at everybody's mess". A litteral translation would be (as found while googling) " Feed at any and all troughs". And I believe that any other expression containing "all" works better than hare and hounds.

So let's agree to disagree. I just don't like to mix proverbs and citations. To me, "hare and hounds" is "chèvre et chou". 

I'm signing off this thread.


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## Cath.S.

> Dans l'extrait dont il est question ici, Porthos dit à Aramis "be one or the other, not both" (hare and hounds). Et lui rappelle qu'Athos lui a dit l'autre jour "vous mangez à tous les râteliers" (all). Deux personnages, deux idées.


Je le lis comme deux personnages, _une _idée.
Je continue de penser qu'Edwin est le seul à avoir proposé une traduction convaincante. _Manger à tous les râteliers_ implique nettement la duplicité.


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## Nicomon

Moi j'ai lu...  deux idées parallèles.  

Mais bon, je m'incline, Edwin a raison... mais pas le traducteur de Dumas.  Et tous les Robert et Collins et autres dictionnaires de locutions et proverbes ont tort.  Jetons les vite à la poubelle!


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## edwingill

In a sense he is hedging his bets or playing both sides against the middle


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## Cath.S.

Nicomon said:
			
		

> Moi j'ai lu... deux idées parallèles.
> 
> Mais bon, je m'incline, Edwin a raison... mais pas le traducteur de Dumas. Et tous les Robert et Collins et autres dictionnaires de locutions et proverbes ont tort. Jetons les vite à la poubelle!


Un dictionnaire, ce n'est pas la Bible. D'ailleurs, de la Bible elle-même, on pense ce que l'on veut.

Pourquoi le traducteur de Dumas serait-il particulièrement intouchable ? 
Voilà qui me dépasse. Ce n'est pas pour rien que les éditeurs sortent régulièrement de nouvelles traductions d'ouvrages déjà traduits.


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## Nicomon

egueule said:
			
		

> Un dictionnaire, ce n'est pas la Bible. D'ailleurs, de la Bible elle-même, on pense ce que l'on veut.
> 
> Pourquoi le traducteur de Dumas serait-il particulièrement intouchable ?
> Voilà qui me dépasse. Ce n'est pas pour rien que les éditeurs sortent régulièrement de nouvelles traductions d'ouvrages déjà traduits.


 
Tout à fait d'accord egueule. Et je m'inclinerai "chapeau bas", le jour où je lirai dans une édition moderne anglaise des Trois Mousquetaires

My dear fellow, be a Musketeer or an abbe. Be one or the other, but not both," replied Porthos. "You know what Athos told you the other day; _you run with the hare and hunt with the hounds._


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## ChiMike

Spogett said:
			
		

> Hi!
> 
> I'm reading Les Trois Mosquetaires by Dumas and I came across the phrase 'Vous mangez à tous les rateliers'.
> 
> What does it mean? Is it something like, you keep all your options open?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Lizzie xXx


 
It's pejorative (always), here just lifting ideas promiscuously without coming to any conclusion or choosing what is best, but sometimes, also, at other people's expense.

So, without too much pecking every horse's feed, and, depending on the level of translation desired (modern, old-fashioned, referential, or reverential, and depending on whether you want the horsey metaphor or not):

tie on every feed-bag

share every donkey's feed-bag

belly up to every trough

eat every horse’s feed

graze in everyone's pasture

graze in all commons (old, but close - promiscuous AND at everybody's expense)

graze (for free) at every restaurant in town

make life a Chinese menu

grab from everyone's plate

eat from every tree in the garden (Biblical, and Dumas could have used it, but didn't)

eat (free) from every stall at the fair

eat a thingy from every grade school and high school canteen (internet reference)

feed on all costs (Shakespeare) (a play on words: cost = herb as well as "expense")

feed univited from everyone's banquet

eat too much from every food group

drink with any tinker (in his own language) (Shakespeare, again)


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## Nicomon

ChiMike

And I see that every single one of your solutions includes the notion of every, all, everyone.  Great job  

The point I was trying to make all along is that "manger à tous les râteliers" and  "ménager la chèvre et le chou"are two different expressions (as confirmed by Gardefeu yesterday), that cannot *both * be translated as  "run with the hare and hunt with the hounds" ... which translates the latter.


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## emma42

I understand your reasoning, Nicomon, but I can't think of a better translation  at the moment, except, possibly "eat from any old trough", which isn't really a set phrase, but sounds like one!  Or is it?  No, I still prefer the hare and the hounds because it encapsulates duplicity.  I know it's the translation for "menager la chevre...", but it seems it might have to serve for our "rateliers" as well for the moment.  Ah, la joie de traduction!


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## Nicomon

emma42 said:
			
		

> I understand your reasoning, Nicomon, but I can't think of a better translation  at the moment, except, possibly "eat from any old trough", which isn't really a set phrase, but sounds like one!  Or is it?  No, I still prefer the hare and the hounds because it encapsulates duplicity.  I know it's the translation for "menager la chevre...", but it seems it might have to serve for our "rateliers" as well for the moment.  Ah, la joie de traduction!



Have you read the complete thread and especially ChiMike's post #35 above?   The original translation of the Three Musketers extract (post #10)?  In my translator's opinion, any of those works better. 
Why would you want to use the same English expression to translate 2 different French ones, when there are so many to chose from?

Honestly... I don't get it.


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## timpeac

I'm afraid that for me not a single one of ChiMike's suggestions rings true. I don't know any of them as set-phrases and on hearing them wouldn't interpret a single one of them as meaning that "the person is buddy-buddy indiscriminately with everyone, even when there is a conflict in that". Sorry to be so negative.


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## ChiMike

Nicomon said:
			
		

> Have you read the complete thread and especially ChiMike's post #35 above? The original translation of the Three Musketers extract (post #10)? In my translator's opinion, any of those works better.
> Why would you want to use the same English expression to translate 2 different French ones, when there are so many to chose from?
> 
> Honestly... I don't get it.


 
For those on the other side of the pond, it's getting quite late. The inquirer's original question was: What does this expression mean in this particular passage. We are now discussing the BEST possible translation, apparently for its use in every passage in which anyone might think to use it. 

I now learn that "ménager la chèvre et le chou" means "to straddle the fence" or something like that. I always understood it (in the past, and on the rare occasions when I heard it - since, when I speak French, I try to avoid proverbs for this very reason and am often confused when people use them in speaking to me) to mean something like: "keep the cat away from the cream" (goats eat cabbage, no?). Shows you what I know!
 
And, while my dictionary gives "run with...etc." as a second translation of  "ménager..." (found under "chèvre" and not under "ménager"), the use of "the" in "run with the hare...hunt with the hounds" etc., has always led me understand that expression (which I don't use and may therefore have misunderstood for 50 years) as meaning: "to run will all and any hares and hunt with all and any hounds." So, in my mind, the ambiguity persists - but basically, trying to have it any way you like and changing your flag any time you please.
 
I didn't include what had already been suggested, not because I necessarily disagree, but because they were already posted. And I sort of liked the "eat at everyone's mess" from the old translation, because it didn't use "mess-hall" but kind of hinted at the mess you would be in if you tried to do that - but it is not faithful to the French metaphor (although obviously appropriate among soldiers...).
 
If I had to translate the Dumas passage, I would probably opt for:
 
"eat from every stall" (and leave out "at the fair" to half capture the French horse metaphor), 
 
but it does seems kind of flat (but then, I don't know whether the metaphor in French was prosaic in Dumas' time or is so now...).
 
Fortunately, however, I only have to try to understand what he meant.
 
As for how "set" any expression is, some are more set than others and are fairly well known: "eat from any tree in the garden" and "drink with every tinker" "grab from every plate" "eat from every stall at the fair".
 
In the Dumas passage in question, I don't think he is using the expression to indicate duplicity, or, necessarily, something done at anyone else's expense, just, as in the old song: "She just couldn't make up her mind" -which is no way to live if you want to be a Musketeer (or even be in the Mickey Mouse Club).


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## Nicomon

That's it, I officially *give up*!! 

If I ever have to translate "manger à tous les râteliers"  (which probably won't be in a near, or even remote future),  I will definitely use something other than "hare and hounds" or "prostitute your devotions".  

You don't have to agree.  I don't either.


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