# التطبيع



## Awatoufa

Hi all WR members
I was wondering about the meaning of this word in arabic and its translation into english
thanks in advance


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## Little_LIS

Hi, 

It's "Normalization".

I usually hear it in political contexts like "normalization with Israel".


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## Awatoufa

Dr.Susy said:


> Hi,
> 
> It's "Normalization".
> 
> I usually hear it in political contexts like "normalization with Israel".



Thanks Dr Suzy 
Does someone know the meaning? in Arabic!!


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## cherine

I think it was a literal translation of the English term. The meaning, as far as I understand it, is "to have *normal* relations" علاقات طبيعية with another country.


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## Awatoufa

yesterday I saw a movie of Adel Imam it was Essefara fel 3omara
I heard this* مش هنسلم مش هنبيع... مش هنوافق عتطبيع*


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## Little_LIS

Awatoufa said:


> yesterday I saw a movie of Adel Imam it was Essefara fel 3omara
> I heard this* مش هنسلم مش هنبيع... مش هنوافق عتطبيع*


 

Yeah  That's what I've mentioned, talking about normalization with Israel.

In the movie, the Israeli embassy was in the same building of Adel Emam's apartment.

They were making a demonstration against Israel.

They meant that they would never establish *normal* realtionship with Israel like importing goods from them.


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## cherine

I checked the dictionaries, and found different definitions of this word, but it's the third definition that's meant in the Arabic usage:


> to bring or restore (as relations between countries) to a normal condition.


And the normalization means far more than just importing goods from the other country, it means having every normal relation as with any other country: diplomatic relations (Israel has embassies in few Arab countries, including Egypt), trade, different kinds of agreements and cooperations (in the field of agriculture, industry...). This apparently "normal" cooperation with Israel is the cause of many demonstrations in Egypt, like the one you saw in the movie. And that's why the slogan was مش هنبيع (we won't sell), because [most] people consider normalization with Israel as a sort of treason.


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## djamal 2008

I wouldn't put most between brackets. Because, some arab land is still occupied and attacked.


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## Josh_

Interesting discussion.  I was actually thinking about opening a thread discussing this very word, which I believe, as Cherine said, seems to be a direct, and too literal (if you ask me), translation of the English word.  Had they consulted me  when they were thinking of what Arabic word to use as an equivalent of the English one I would have told them التوفيق which seems more in line with how I understand "normalization," which is essentially reconciliation.  Whether it is used this way or not, one of the definitions of التوفيق in the Hans Wehr is "re-establishment of normal relations," which of course is a similar idea to the one of the word's main meanings of reconciliation.


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## djamal 2008

Josh_ said:


> Interesting discussion.  I was actually thinking about opening a thread discussing this very word, which I believe, as Cherine said, seems to be a direct, and too literal (if you ask me), translation of the English word.  Had they consulted me  when they were thinking of what Arabic word to use as an equivalent of the English one I would have told them التوفيق which seems more in line with how I understand "normalization," which is essentially reconciliation.  Whether it is used this way or not, one of the definitions of التوفيق in the Hans Wehr is "re-establishment of normal relations," which of course is a similar idea to the one of the word's main meanings of reconciliation.



But would that translate into full diplomatic relations and would all muslims be allowed to visit Jerusalem, a holy city for them.
I think normalization is a vague word in order to achieve peace and allow for a palestinian state to be established. In the western word we speak of Land vs Peace to mean normalization.


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## Josh_

djamal 2008 said:


> But would that translate into full diplomatic relations and would all muslims be allowed to visit Jerusalem, a holy city for them.
> I think normalization is a vague word in order to achieve peace and allow for a palestinian state to be established. In the western word we speak of Land vs Peace to mean normalization.


This word 'normalization' refers to _any_ country (re)establishing relations with any other country.  It does not only refer to the complex relations between Israel and the Arab states.

At any rate, this is a linguistic forum, not a political one, and so your questions are beyond the scope of the forum.

On a linguistic level, my suggestion was only about what I thought would be a more appropriate equivalent for the word 'normalization' as it is used in political discourse.  Whatever 'normalization' (should) entail is left to those so concerned.


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## djamal 2008

xxx In order to translate a word one has to agree, first, on what the word means. You say tawfik and I disagree, tawfik means good luck; May be you meant tawaafuk aw itifaak wich means agreement.
I myself think that this term was used specifically to the Middle East conflict because one cannot separate the issues involved in it.


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## Awatoufa

Thanks all of you I agree with Djamal that the meaning on tawfik isfar from tattbi3


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## Josh_

I should explain a little more.  My main issue, actually, is with the English word "normalization."  To me, it just seems like an odd word to describe the action of establishing diplomatic, economic, and other, relations with a country.  I have no real justification for that other than I don't think of having, or not having, diplomatic relations in terms of normality. I just think of it as having relations or not having relations.  In that vein, I would never say something like, "The US has normal relations with England." To me that sounds odd.  I would more likely say something like "The US has diplomatic relations with England."  

Also, the implication of having normal relations leads to the idea (to me anyway) that not having diplomatic relations is somehow "abnormal."  And that seems quite strange to me, mainly because you would most likely never hear, "The US has abnormal relations with Iran," but rather "The US has no diplomatic relations with Iran."   

So, as I said, my main issue is with the word "normalization" itself.  My feeling about the Arabic word تطبيع, having been brought directly into Arabic from the English, is just an extension of that.



djamal 2008 said:


> xxx In order to translate a word one has to agree, first, on what the word means. You say tawfik and I disagree, tawfik means good luck;


This word only means good luck? It cannot be used in other ways?  I cannot say, for example, "سميرة تحاول التوفيق/أن توفّق بين عبير وكريم?"  This does not mean "Samira is trying to make peace between Abir and Karim?"



> May be you meant tawaafuk aw itifaak wich means agreement.


No, I meant _tawfiiq_.  Now, I'm not saying it's the best word to use, or even better than تطبيع, but that it seems to be more in line with how I understand this concept.  Perhaps إنشاء العلاقات الدبلوماسية would be better.  But none of that matters anyway, as 'normalizaton' and 'التطبيع' have come to be the standard, or shall we say the normal, words to describe this concept.


> I myself think that this term was used specifically to the Middle East conflict because one cannot separate the issues involved in it.


I can see how that misconception might arise as the Middle East conflict seems to dominate the media, but, as I said, this term (both the English and the Arabic) can be applied to other situations as well.  Here are two that have nothing to do with the Middle East conflict:

تطبيع العلاقات مع كوبا
تطبيع العلاقات مع كوريا الشمالية


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## cherine

Josh_ said:


> I should explain a little more. My main issue, actually, is with the English word "normalization." To me, it just seems like an odd word to describe the action of establishing diplomatic, economic, and other, relations with a country. I have no real justification for that other than I don't think of having, or not having, diplomatic relations in terms of normality. I just think of it as having relations or not having relations.


But this is the not what normalization is about, is it? I mean, the idea of "normalization" is to make something become normal. Like in the examples you've mentioned. US is not having normal relations (diplomatic or other) with Cuba and North Korea. The idea of normalization here is to try to establish normal relations, relations that are like any other that the US is having with other countries, and not just any relation (like bad relation, war relation... but _normal_ ones).


> So, as I said, my main issue is with the word "normalization" itself. My feeling about the Arabic word تطبيع, having been brought directly into Arabic from the English, is just an extension of that.


I think we all share this kind of unease towards this word, but I personally think that, after all, it's the best to describe similar situations. When two or more countries have been having bad relations (for boycott, war, animosity...) and want to ameliorate their relation, "normalization" is the best description.
We, in Egypt, have had similar "assimilation" or "acceptance" problem of other neologisms such as الخصخصة، الشفافية، المَأْسَسة .... but we kind of got used to them. 


> This word only means good luck? It cannot be used in other ways? I cannot say, for example, "سميرة تحاول التوفيق/أن توفّق بين عبير وكريم?" This does not mean "Samira is trying to make peace between Abir and Karim?"


التوفيق mainly means "reconciliation". So maybe it's not exactly the best word to use in the situations we're talking about. Even if Hans Wehr is giving it the meaning of "re-establishment of normal relations", specially that the idea of التوفيق is that a third party is trying to يُوَفِّق بين طرفين آخرين  which is not necessarily the case with two parties trying to ameliorate their relation and making it "normal".


> Perhaps إنشاء العلاقات الدبلوماسية would be better. But none of that matters anyway, as 'normalizaton' and 'التطبيع' have come to be the standard, or shall we say the normal, words to describe this concept.


Although إنشاء/إقامة علاقات دبلوماسية is a correct and commonly used expression, it's more limited -in meaning- than التطبيع because normalization is having normal relations in every way, not just in the field of diplomacy.


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## djamal 2008

Normalization requires first solving the problems between two parties in conflict, as in the case in the Middle East, in order to establish full diplomatic relations. Normalisation is conducted through treaties that may entail the recognition of one another but not necessarely. The relations of the state of Qatar and Israel are considered to be normal yet they don't have diplomatic relations.


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## Josh_

Dgamal and Cherine, 
I understand very well what the word "normalization" and "normal" mean in terms of diplomatic relations*. What I am saying is that it may not have been my first choice. Using the word normal as equivalent to having diplomatic relations is a completely arbitrary designation. I mean, who says that having diplomatic relations with a country is 'normal'?  The way I see it as normal to _not_ have diplomatic relations as it to have diplomatic relations, as there are so many countries that do not have diplomatic relations with other countries.   Anyway, I understand it, accept, and use it myself.  My only purpose in this thread was relating a word that I thought may better represent the overall meaning. It was not to rewrite the rules of 'normalization' or make insinuations about normalization should include.

*I am using the term diplomatic relations to refer to all the different types of relations one country can have with another.


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