# The many benefits: Why THE here?



## Camlearner

Hi

_*"The many benefits of the ultrasound as a diagnostic tool tend to outweigh any apprehensions of as yet unknown consequences."*_

Why the _*The *_is used here? I think no need? if need, what is its extra meaning from: _*"Many benefits of the ultrasound..."*_

Source: http://www.thepregnancyzone.com/pre...aign=Feed:+pregnancyzone+(The+Pregnancy+Zone)

Thanks


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## Beryl from Northallerton

The many benefits = the vast number of benefits.

but, 

Many benefits of... = many of the benefits of...


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## Camlearner

Thanks Beryl. I understand from you that the many is bigger than many ? For example, the many = 10 ; many = 5 or 6, 7, 8 only ? by looking at the adj. vast


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## Valvs

Camlearner said:


> Thanks Beryl. I understand from you that the many is bigger than many ? For example, the many = 10 ; many = 5 or 6, 7, 8 only ? by looking at the adj. vast


That's not the point. 
*The many benefits* = *all *of the numerous benefits, *many benefits *= many (but not all) of the benefits.


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## Beryl from Northallerton

Sorry to mislead you (with vast) but I didn't mean that 'the many' is bigger than 'many'. They mean different things, and perform different grammatical functions. I will rewrite the original sentence.

_*"The many benefits of the ultrasound as a diagnostic tool tend to outweigh any apprehensions of as yet unknown consequences."*_ = 

_*"The [very] many benefits of the ultrasound as a diagnostic tool tend to outweigh any apprehensions of as yet unknown consequences."*_ = 

_*"The large number of benefits of the ultrasound as a diagnostic tool tend to outweigh any apprehensions of as yet unknown consequences."*_


BUT, if you used 'many' instead, it would mean something else:

_*"Many benefits of the ultrasound as a diagnostic tool tend to outweigh any apprehensions of as yet unknown consequences."*_ = 

_*"Many of the benefits of the ultrasound as a diagnostic tool tend to outweigh any apprehensions of as yet unknown consequences."*_ = 

_*"Not all the benefits of the ultrasound as a diagnostic tool tend to outweigh any apprehensions of as yet unknown consequences."*_

Does this help?


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## Camlearner

Thanks Valvs for your more answer. 
So it's like:
_*The many students: All students in the school (100% of them).
Many students: can be 80% or over (but less than *__*100% of them*__*) or under of the students in the school.*_
Am I right?

Oh I just see your new answer Beryl..But still I think your answer tell me that the many = 10 ; many = 5 or 6, 7, 8 only ? by looking at the adj. _*The [very] many... *_compared to the 3 sentences below it that without _*very *_


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## Pertinax

"The many benefits" just refers to the benefits collectively as a group, instead of individually.  It has nothing to do with actual numbers 5,6,7,8,9,10.


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## Camlearner

Thanks Pertinax for your more answer. 

So *the *here can be like *ALL *? *

ALL students* = *The many students* # *Many students* = a lot of students (but yes not them ALL) ?


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## xgll004

I wonder what "*as yet unknown consequences.*"means. I do not quite follow it


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## Camlearner

Hi xgll004, I have another thread post for JUST "*as yet unknown consequences.*" already posted.


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## Pertinax

Camlearner said:


> Thanks Pertinax for your more answer.
> 
> So *the *here can be like *ALL *? *
> 
> ALL students* = *The many students* # *Many students* = a lot of students (but yes not them ALL) ?



It's not quite the same because a statement about "all students" is a statement about each of them individually.  It's more a statement about the student-body (i.e. the collection of all students).  For example:

_The many students that we have make it possible for us to employ 20 teachers._


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## Camlearner

Pertinax said:


> The many students that we have make it possible for us to employ 20 teachers.[/I]


Thanks. But this _Many students that we have make it possible for us to employ 20 teachers._                 also mean the same the above quote ? What's much different? or just we prefer different style to write sentence? Sorry to ask a lot


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## Pertinax

No, it does not mean the same.

_Many students that we have make it possible for us to employ 20 teachers._

implies that there is a student who pays enough on his own to pay for 20 teachers.


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## Camlearner

oh first I thought about the number only ? not about the level of money!
I thought 100 students, employ 18 teachers.. 150 students _make it possible for us to employ 20 teachers, _for example.
Ok anyway.. however..

Back to my origin question:
So
_*"The many benefits of the ultrasound as a diagnostic tool tend to outweigh any apprehensions of as yet unknown consequences."*_
=
_*"ALL benefits of the ultrasound as a diagnostic tool tend to outweigh any apprehensions of as yet unknown consequences."*_


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## Pertinax

No, but you could say:
_
There are many benefits of the ultrasound as a diagnostic tool, and collectively they tend to outweigh any apprehensions of as yet unknown consequences._


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## Camlearner

_ There are many benefits of the ultrasound as a diagnostic tool, and  collectively *the many of them (*__*) *tend to outweigh any apprehensions of as yet unknown  consequences.

_


Pertinax said:


> No, but you could say:



 but thanks


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## PaulQ

Camlearner said:


> oh first I thought about the number only ? not about the level of money!
> I thought 100 students, employ 18 teachers.. 150 students _make it possible for us to employ 20 teachers, _for example.
> Ok anyway.. however..
> 
> Back to my origin question:
> So
> _*"The many benefits of the ultrasound as a diagnostic tool tend to outweigh any apprehensions of as yet unknown consequences."*_
> =
> _*"ALL benefits of the ultrasound as a diagnostic tool tend to outweigh any apprehensions of as yet unknown consequences."*_


Please do *not *bother about "*many*". The problem is with "*the *benefits". The definite article *must *be there:

"The students who came saw the King"
"The *few *students who came saw the King"
"The *taller *students who came saw the King"
"The *Chinese *students who came saw the King"
"The *many *students who came saw the King"

*Many *is simply an adjective and can be omitted. It is merely explaining that there are many benefits.


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## Camlearner

Ah so PaulQ, you're explaining to me that _*"The many benefits*_ is not talking about _*"Many benefits collectively*_ but it only just about : which benefits that we *KNOW about already* ? by thinking _"The *many *students who came saw the King"_ the *the* here according to class of grammar of mine is,I know them already , especially, whether or not just know those students collectively or know them separately ?


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## PaulQ

Camlearner said:


> [...]but it only just about : which benefits that we *KNOW about already*


 Yes. That is it.


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## Camlearner

Thanks. So I clarify with you that so if we don't *KNOW about already those benefits* we cannot say:
_*"The many benefits of the ultrasound as a diagnostic tool tend to outweigh any apprehensions of as yet unknown consequences."
*_
But we can just say:_*"Many benefits of the ultrasound as a diagnostic tool tend to outweigh any apprehensions of as yet unknown consequences."*_


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## PaulQ

It is clear that you are very confused about the phrase, _*"The many benefits of the ultrasound"*_

The important message is that 
(i) we *know *that there are a lot of benefits to ultrasound when it is used as a diagnostic tool
(ii) We *do not know* if ultrasound may have some unknown bad consequences
(iii) We *might* be worried about these *unknown* bad consequences
(iv) We should not be worried about these unknown bad consequences because we know that there are a lot of benefits to ultrasound when it is used as a diagnostic tool.

To simplify the sentence:
"The many benefits of it outweigh worries about unknown consequences."



> But we can just say:_*"Many benefits of the ultrasound as a diagnostic tool tend to outweigh any apprehensions of as yet unknown consequences."*_


No. that is wrong. We cannot say that.


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## JamesM

Camlearner said:


> But we can just say:_*"Many benefits of the ultrasound as a diagnostic tool tend to outweigh any apprehensions of as yet unknown consequences."*_



No, you can't. "Many" (without "the") automatically includes its opposite.

"The many countries in the U.N. cooperate to find solutions."  = All of the various countries cooperate.
"Many countries in the U.N. cooperate to find solutions." = Many cooperate; some don't cooperate.

You could try substituting "various" or "manifold" for "many" in a construction that includes "The many" followed by a noun.


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## GreenWhiteBlue

Camlearner, I think you are overlooking the fact that "many" is not necessary to the meaning of the sentence. The subject of the sentence is "The benefits", and you can express the same idea just saying "_*The benefits of *_*of the ultrasound as a diagnostic tool tend to outweigh any apprehensions of as yet unknown consequences.*" The word "many" is inserted in that sentence to indicate that these benefits are also numerous, but you could have inserted any other adjective:

_The* important *benefits of the ultrasound...
The *noteworthy* benefits of the ultrasound...
The *wonderful *benefits of the ultrasound...

_However, since the subject is still fundamentally "the benefits", that article "the" remains, no matter what adjectives you add.


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## Beryl from Northallerton

JamesM said:


> "Many" (without "the") automatically includes its opposite.



Could you expand on this please?


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## JamesM

Sure.

"Many members on the council are unhappy with the new development plan."  This implies that there are also some members that are not unhappy.
"Many parts of the pine tree are edible."  This includes the implication that some parts are not edible.
"Many people would find that objectionable."  This includes the implication that some people wouldn't find it objectionable.
"Many concertos employ the sonata-allegro form."  This includes the implication that some concertos don't.


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## Beryl from Northallerton

That to me, seems like an automatic exclusion, at least I think that's how I would describe it.


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## Pertinax

JamesM said:


> "Many members on the council are unhappy with the new development plan."  This implies that there are also some members that are not unhappy.
> "Many parts of the pine tree are edible."  This includes the implication that some parts are not edible.
> "Many people would find that objectionable."  This includes the implication that some people wouldn't find it objectionable.
> "Many concertos employ the sonata-allegro form."  This includes the implication that some concertos don't.



I don't think that this is necessarily true, though it often is.  I might be ignorant of the state of the remainder.  For example, all the councillors that confided in me might have expressed their unhappiness;  all the parts of the pine tree that I had sampled might have been edible.  There might still be good reason for me to say "many" instead of "all that I am aware of", e.g. if I do not want to expose the limits of my knowledge.


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## JamesM

I agree.  I may be only speaking about what I know.  However, I was trying to contrast it with "the many".

"The many parts of the pine tree are edible" implies that all of the different parts of the pine tree are edible.
"Many parts of the pine tree are edible" implies that I don't know that all parts are edible or that some are inedible.


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## PaulQ

No, because that would indicate that although *many *benefits did outweigh the apprehensions, *some *benefits did not ..."

*The *many benefits... = all the benefits and there are many benefits...


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## Camlearner

Camlearner said:


> So *the *here can be like *ALL *? *
> ALL students* = *The many students* # *Many students* = a lot of students (but yes not them ALL) ?





PaulQ said:


> *The *many benefits... = all the benefits and there are many benefits...


Hi PaulQ, It look like we conclude finally the same. 
Except that my conclusion say: *ALL students* and you say: *ALL the students* but we both want to say that both *ALL students* and *ALL the students* mean *The many students*. So finally to conclude our conclusions: Are *ALL the students =* *ALL students* = *The many students* or not ?

But now I remember the reply from Pertinax that wrote:


Pertinax said:


> It's not quite the same because a statement  about "all students" is a statement about each of them individually.   It's more a statement about the student-body (i.e. the collection of all  students).  For example:
> _The many students that we have make it possible for us to employ 20 teachers._



So  after reviewing this point, I should conclude again? that there are 3  different styles different from country/region to country/region  (maybe?) that :
Style1: *ALL students* =  each of them individually while *The many students* is the student-body (i.e. the collection of all students) ?
Style2: *ALL the students =* *The many students*  ?
Style3: *The students* is *many students* already and that adjective word '*many*' is used or not, it's unimportant because GreenWhiteBlue say:


GreenWhiteBlue said:


> Camlearner, I think you are overlooking  the fact that "many" is not necessary to the meaning of the sentence.  The subject of the sentence is "The benefits", and you can express the  same idea just saying "_*The benefits of *_*of the ultrasound as a diagnostic tool tend to outweigh any apprehensions of as yet unknown consequences.*"  The word "many" is inserted in that sentence to indicate that these  benefits are also numerous, but you could have inserted any other  adjective:
> _
> The* important *benefits of the ultrasound...
> The *noteworthy* benefits of the ultrasound...
> The *wonderful *benefits of the ultrasound...
> 
> _However, since the subject is still fundamentally "the benefits",  that article "the" remains, no matter what adjectives you add.


 
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PaulQ said:


> It is clear that you are very confused about the phrase, _*"The many benefits of the ultrasound"*_
> 
> The important message is that
> (i) we *know *that there are a lot of benefits to ultrasound when it is used as a diagnostic tool
> (ii) We *do not know* if ultrasound may have some unknown bad consequences
> (iii) We *might* be worried about these *unknown* bad consequences
> (iv) We should not be worried about these unknown bad consequences  because we know that there are a lot of benefits to ultrasound when it  is used as a diagnostic tool.
> To simplify the sentence:
> "The many benefits of it outweigh worries about unknown consequences."


Hi PaulQ so from comment from you here, it seem that *The many benefits *is not all benefits yet because *(ii) We do not know if ultrasound may have some unknown bad consequences* and this point seem to be speaking to me that:  '*The many benefits' *is not the same '*All benefits'* ? if that is so, then so it's seem to contrast with JamesS's idea here ?? : 


JamesM said:


> "The many countries in the U.N. cooperate to find solutions."  = All of the various countries cooperate.
> "Many countries in the U.N. cooperate to find solutions." = Many cooperate; some don't cooperate.





JamesM said:


> I agree.  I may be only speaking about what I  know.  However, I was trying to contrast it with "the many".
> 
> "The many parts of the pine tree are edible" implies that all of the different parts of the pine tree are edible.
> "Many parts of the pine tree are edible" implies that I don't know that all parts are edible or that some are inedible.


 
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JamesM said:


> "The many countries in the U.N. cooperate to find solutions."  = All of the various countries cooperate.
> "Many countries in the U.N. cooperate to find solutions." = Many cooperate; some don't cooperate.
> You could try substituting "various" or "manifold" for "many" in a  construction that includes "The many" followed by a noun.


 Thanks & Hi JamesM : So I understand now that these 3 - 4, 5 sentences are same or at the least, similar, below if our discussants will agree to my review/comparision/ above (but maybe will not OK) :
*The many *countries in the U.N. cooperate to find solutions.
*The various* countries in the U.N. cooperate to find solutions.
*The manifold* countries in the U.N. cooperate to find solutions.
*All of the various* countries cooperate.
*All various* countries cooperate.
*All* countries cooperate.
*All the* countries cooperate.
*All* *of the* countries cooperate.



---------------------------------------

So finally I'm still  Can someone try to please give me the best final conclusion of the conclusion?


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## JulianStuart

"The many benefits of ultrasound ..."
"The many countries in the U.N. cooperate to find solutions."

These can be re-written as

"The benefits (of which there are many) of ultrasound ..."
"The countries in the U.N. (of which there are many) cooperate to find solutions."

In the following list you created, they _all_ mean the same thing and they also _all_ mean that there are no countries which do not cooperate.

*The many *countries in the U.N. cooperate to find solutions.
*The various*countries in the U.N. cooperate to find solutions.
*The manifold*countries in the U.N. cooperate to find solutions.
*All of the various* countries cooperate.
*All various* countries cooperate.
*All* countries cooperate.
*All the* countries cooperate.
*All* *of the* countries cooperate.


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## Camlearner

Thank you JulianStuart. But your two ideas seem opposite each other, ? I think.


JulianStuart said:


> "The many benefits of ultrasound ..."
> "The many countries in the U.N. cooperate to find solutions."
> These can be re-written as
> "The benefits (of which there are many) of ultrasound ..."
> "The countries in the U.N. (of which there are many) cooperate to find solutions."


"The benefits (of which there are many *[I think you refer to NOT ALL & EVERY BENEFITS]*) of ultrasound ..."
"The countries in the U.N. (of which there are many *[I think you refer to NOT ALL & EVERY COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD]*) cooperate to find solutions."





JulianStuart said:


> In the following list you created, they _all_ mean the same thing and they also _all_ mean that there are no countries which do not cooperate.
> *The many *countries in the U.N. cooperate to find solutions.
> *The various*countries in the U.N. cooperate to find solutions.
> *The manifold*countries in the U.N. cooperate to find solutions.
> *All of the various* countries cooperate.
> *All various* countries cooperate.
> *All* countries cooperate.
> *All the* countries cooperate.
> *All* *of the* countries cooperate.


You say : they _all_ mean the same thing and they also _all_ mean that there are no countries which do not cooperate. And among those choices of sentences that I created is  *The many countries in the U.N. cooperate to find solutions. *which then refering back to the first quote from you , you can rewrite it like this : *"The countries in the U.N. (of which there are many [which I think you refer to NOT ALL & EVERY COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD]) cooperate to find solutions."*
* 
*Or except my synthesis fall over?


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## JamesM

I'm afraid you still don't have it.  Let's try putting it another way:

The many countries in the U.N. cooperate to find solutions. = All of the countries in the U.N. (and there is a large number of countries in the U.N.) cooperate to find solutions.

"Many" in this sentence simply underlines the point that there are not just two or three countries in the U.N.; there are many/lots of/a great number of countries in the U.N.  It is a way to draw attention to fact that there are many countries in the U.N. and ALL of them cooperate to find solutions.

As hard as it may be to believe, simply changing the word order from "Many of the" to "The many" _completely_ changes the effect of "many" in the sentence.

"The many colors of the rainbow create a stunning effect." = "All of the colors of the rainbow (and there are a lot of colors in the rainbow) create a stunning effect."

In this sentence, "many" communicates the same thing as "there are a lot of colors in the rainbow".


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## JulianStuart

Camlearner said:


> Thank you JulianStuart. But your two ideas seem opposite each other, ? I think."The benefits (of which there are many *[I think you refer to NOT ALL & EVERY BENEFITS]*) of ultrasound ...""The countries in the U.N. (of which there are many *[I think you refer to NOT ALL & EVERY COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD]*) cooperate to find solutions."


 The use of "the" at the beginning of each sentence refers to "all the ...".  Thus "The benefits ..." has the same meaning as "All the benefits ... "





> .


The phrase in brackets simply tells us that there are a lot of benefits or countries. There are many benefits = There are a lot of benefits.  In this usage, many does NOT have its OTHER meaning of "most".


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## Einstein

_*The many benefits...*_ means *The benefits, which are many, ...


"Many benefits of the ultrasound as a diagnostic tool tend to outweigh any apprehensions of as yet unknown consequences."
*
This would be strange. It would mean that the ultrasound as a diagnostic tool has some benefits. Many of these tend to outweigh etc., while a minority of the benefits do not have this effect.


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## Camlearner

Yes JamesM I'm afraid I still don't have it because now I notice that Einstein comments that                      _*The many benefits...*_ just means *The benefits, which are many, ... NOT * *ALL benefits
*


Einstein said:


> _*The many benefits...*_ means *The benefits, which are many, ...
> 
> *



But you and JulianStuart commented that:



JamesM said:


> I'm afraid you still don't have it.  Let's try putting it another way:
> 
> *The many countries* in the U.N. cooperate to find solutions. = *All of the countries* in the U.N.
> 
> "*The many colors *of the rainbow create a stunning effect." = "*All of the colors* of the rainbow


 


JulianStuart said:


> The use of *"the"* at the beginning of each sentence refers to *"all the ..."*.  Thus "The benefits ..." has the same meaning as "*All the benefits* ...



So by *The benefits, which are many, ...* , I think this red phrase just means Many benefits and *NOT *all benefits,   which again opposite to 2 above comments, except I misunderstand your   explanation! Or to speak shortly, is it just a difference between UK   & US English?


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## JamesM

No.  "The benefits, which are many,..." means "(All) the benefits, which are numerous,..."  I can't think of another way to put it.   "Many" does not always mean "many, but not all".  Somehow you seem to be applying that one meaning in all contexts.


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## JulianStuart

Camlearner said:


> So by *The benefits, which are many, ...* , I *think* this red phrase just means Many benefits and *NOT *all benefits *<---(WRONG INTERPRETATION) *,   which again opposite to 2 above comments, except I misunderstand your   explanation! Or to speak shortly, is it just a difference between UK   & US English?



NO NO NO 
The word MANY has *TWO DIFFERENT* meanings in both AmE and BrE

As I said above: The  phrase in brackets simply tells us that there are a lot of benefits or  countries.

*There are many benefits = There are a lot of benefits. 
**There are many benefits = There are a lot of benefits.*
*
 In  this usage, many does NOT have its OTHER meaning of "most".        

*


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## Camlearner

Ok so here in my context:

1. The many benefits = The benefits = All the benefits (yes there are many benefit*s* because of the '*s*') !!

2. And how about this one? The all benefits ? (native-speakers speak it? and it same as above?)

But

3. Many benefits is not = The many benefits because The many benefits is All the benefits while Many benefits  is, like you just said, not All (& every) benefits !! 

4. And I guess maybe Many benefits = Many of the benefits = a lot of benefits ?

Please help tick  or  Thanks


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## JulianStuart

My comments in blue!





Camlearner said:


> Ok so here in my context:
> 
> 1. The many benefits = The benefits(you lose some meaning by leaving out the word "many" , now there may only be two or three benefits) = All the benefits (yes there are many benefit*s* because of the '*s*') !! (This means that you cannot always substitute "All the benefits" for "The benefits".  In the original sentence, it would read that "All the benefits outweigh..." and this could mean all together or each individually.  Ambiguity is bad  )
> 
> 2. And how about this one? The all benefits ? (native-speakers speak it? and it same as above?) Not used in English, ever.
> 
> But
> 
> 3. Many benefits is not = The many benefits because The many benefits is All the benefits while Many benefits  is, like you just said, not All (& every) benefits !!
> 
> 4. And I guess maybe Many benefits = Many of the benefits = a lot of the benefits ? when you include the "the".
> 
> Thanks


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## Camlearner

So finally: 

*The *_*many *_benefits = *All the many* benefits or *All the (many)* benefits  !?


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## JulianStuart

"The many benefits" is the original and *best way to express the intended meaning*.

In "All the many benefits" the "all" is redundant and adds no new meaning (except in some weird context where you have to emphasise ALL - for example to contradict someone who claims it's only _some_ of the many benefits - see how context clouds these discussions?!)
*If you take out the "many"* from _either_ phrase (with or without the ALL) you lose the meaning of the word many  - meaning "a lot" , so *you change the meaning* - without the word many we can't tell what the number of benefits is any more.


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## Camlearner

> *If you take out the "many"* from _either_ phrase (with or without the ALL) you lose the meaning of the word many  - meaning a lot , so *you change the meaning* - without the word many we can't tell what the number of benefits is any more.


 But I think the *'s'*_ (benefit*s*)_ also points to the meaning of* 'many'* _already?_ And although with *'many'*, we still can't tell what the number of benefits is how many too, do we?

Thank you a lot JulianStuart for the many answers to my the many questions. (Do I use _*the many*_ here correct?)


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## Glenfarclas

Camlearner said:


> But I think the *'s'*_ (benefit*s*)_ also points to the meaning of* 'many'* _already?_ And although with *'many'*, we still can't tell what the number of benefits is how many too, do we?



The "s" means that there is more than one, but two or three are not "many."  A plural noun does not "point to the meaning of 'many' already."  "There are criminals in this town" does not mean the same thing as "There are many criminals in this town" just because "criminals" has an "s" on the end.  A plural means "more than one"; "many" means "relatively a lot."


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## JulianStuart

Camlearner said:


> But I think the *'s'*_ (benefit*s*)_ also points to the meaning of* 'many'* _already?_ And although with *'many'*, we still can't tell what the number of benefits is how many too, do we?
> 
> Thank you a lot JulianStuart for the many answers to my the many questions. (Do I use _*the many*_ here correct?)



The -s just means two or more benefits.  Many means (a lot) more than that (from the dictionary ; a large number of. ).  So the meaning is_ different_ if we include the word "many" even though we don't know how large the number is.



> Thank you a lot JulianStuart for the many answers to my the many questions. (Do I use _*the many*_ here correct?)


The first time yes!  If you had left out the the, you would have been thanking me for only _some_ of the answers 

The second one, we don't use the as well as my before the same (adjective) noun.

It looks like you got there


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## Camlearner

> The -s just means two or more benefits.  Many means (a lot) more than  that (from the dictionary ; a large number of. ).  So the meaning is_ different_ if we include the word "many" even though we don't know how large the number is.





> The first time yes!  If you had left out the the, you would have been thanking me for only _some_ of the answers
> 
> The second one, we don't use the as well as my before the same (adjective) noun.
> 
> It looks like you got there


Again, my many thanks to you for the many answers to my many questions about "The many benefits". Yeah!!


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