# Damn (the verb to damn)



## eno2

Hello

WR has only the potentially offensive adj, adv, interjection, but I made a little excursion in the verb to damn,  given the subtitle stuff I'm involved in.
The verb would be used mostly in the passive and that would be *καταρώμαι,/καταριέμα*ι.  είμαι καταραμένος=  I'm damned.
I encountered also διαβολοστέλνω,  somewhere, meaning: to damn. 
To my surprise,     in WR,  καταδικάζω,   is also given the  meaning of  'to damn .   There are no example of use... I suppose it's better not to think of using καταδικάζω as 'to damn'.
διαβολοστέλνω has no own entry in WR but it's in Wiktionary: <στέλνω κάποιον στο διάβολο, του λέω να "πάει στο διάβολο">
Did I conclude to something wrong here from my searches in 'to damn' or are they  incomplete?


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## sotos

it seems that "to damn" has many meanings in english, including "to condemn, to criticize strongly" etc. In view of those meanings, the  καταδικάζω (in the sense of criticism) can be one of the many greek equivalents.


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## eno2

*Definition of damn in English:
damn
VERB*
[WITH OBJECT]




> 1*be damned*(in Christian belief) be condemned by God to suffer eternal punishment in hell.
> _‘I treated her badly and I'll be damned to hell for it’_
> More example sentences
> 
> 1.1Be doomed to misfortune or failure.
> 
> _‘the enterprise was damned’_
> More example sentences
> Synonyms
> [*][*]2Criticize strongly.
> _‘the book damns her husband’_
> More example sentences
> Synonyms
> 
> 2.1Curse (someone or something)
> 
> _‘she cleared her throat, damning it for its huskiness’
> ‘damn him for making this sound trivial’_
> [*]


damn | Definition of damn by Lexico.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           I was working around the *curse*/



κατάρα

meanings. I(Meaning 1 and 1.2.1)  I'm sure that doesn't fit καταδικάζω. But the 'condemn /καταδικάζω  semantic field is something I should look into apart.


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## sotos

Καταδικάζω doesn't necessarily mean something as grave as sending someone to hell or to prison. It may refer to  a slightly negative or even neutral (and sometimes -ironically- positive)  judgment/decision, and needs careful syntax in Greek. For example, "αυτός ο  νόμος καταδικάζει σε αδράνεια την προηγούμενη συμφωνία ..." (which may  not be of deadly importance). 

In the sense of strong negative criticism, usually we say καταδικάζω the ACTS of a person, but not the person himself. The above example "the book damns her husband", without further context, would be misunderstood if translated as "το βιβλίο καταδικάζει το σύζυγό της. (full-stop)". In greek needs further context to explain the nature of damnation, such as "καταδικάζει her husband for his declaration ... (but this is her personal opinion and is debatable)". If it comes without other explanation, it may be understood that "καταδικάζει her husband (so that something bad happens to him, as if the book can be used as a proof of a crime)".


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## ioanell

eno2 said:


> The verb would be used mostly in the passive and that would be *καταρώμαι,/καταριέμα*ι. είμαι καταραμένος= I'm damned.



Note that* καταρώμαι *(Ancient > archaic, used by scholars of older times) / and *καταριέμα*ι (Modern Greek), meaning “to curse, to cast an evil spell on, to anathematise”, is in both forms a deponent verb, that is morphologically is only in the passive voice, but active in terms of disposition and transitive.

*καταραμένος: *Although there is no verb of passive disposition meaning “to have received a curse myself, to have been cast an evil spell” and a periphrasis is always used either in an active or in a passive construction accordingly, there is a passive voice and disposition present perfect participle *καταραμένος, -η, -ο *(and archaic form “κατηραμένος”), meaning “cursed, damned, etc.”


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## eno2

ioanell said:


> *καταριέμα*ι (Modern Greek), meaning “to curse, to cast an evil spell on, to anathematise”, is in both forms a deponent verb, that is morphologically is only in the passive voice, but active in terms of disposition and transitive.



Does that mean they have only a passive mode/voice   (Voice = form??? and mode is function???) but  are used in an active way?  (If I find examples I'll post them)

<αποθετικά ρήματα λέγονται όσα έχουν μόνο *μέση φωνή*, όπως δέχομαι. έρχομαι>
What does that mean precisely, αποθετικά? That  they  can only be used medium passively or that they have only a μέση φωνή FORM but can be used actively also?
I'm confused by mode/voice/form....
I'd better repeat grammar first and abstain from questions grammatical....


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## διαφορετικός

eno2 said:


> What does that mean precisely, αποθετικά?





eno2 said:


> they have only a μέση φωνή FORM


Yes, it denotes the form of the verb. In English, "αποθετικά ρήματα" are called "deponent verbs".


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## Perseas

eno2 said:


> <αποθετικά ρήματα λέγονται όσα έχουν μόνο *μέση φωνή*, όπως δέχομαι. έρχομαι>
> What does that mean precisely, αποθετικά? That  they  can only be used medium passively or that they have only a μέση φωνή FORM but can be used actively also?


In Modern Greek there are two voices, the active and the passive. The active verbs end in -ω and passive in -μαι.

Αποθετικά are the passive-only verbs, which have only passive forms. For example, δέχομαι; the form δέχω does not exist.
They can be used as active or middle (as far as disposition is concerned).

For example: αισθάνομαι κάτι (Ι feel something) --> αισθάνομαι is αποθετικό (only passive forms) and is used as active (disposition).
Another example: εργάζομαι ως δάσκαλος (I work as a teacher) -->εργάζομαι is αποθετικό (only passive forms) and is used as a middle (disposition).


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## Perseas

eno2 said:


> And 'middle' means medio-passive?


No.

Modern Greek has two voices: active (-ω) & passive (-μαι). Βλέπ*ω* is active, λυπά*μαι* is passive. 
Modern Greek has four dispositions: active (the subject of the verb is doing an action), passive (the subject receives the action of the verb), middle (the subject does something which goes back to the subject) and neutral (the subject is in a state).


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## ioanell

In the following thread you will find very useful information in posts by Perseas and dmtrs.
μέσα και αποθετικά ρήματα




eno2 said:


> Does that mean they have only a passive mode/voice (Voice = form??? and mode is function???) but are used in an active way?



A rough explanation of the (medio)passive voice is that the verbs belonging to it, in terms of the form we write and pronounce them, have the ending -μαι in the 1st person singular of the present tense. Consequently, voice = external form of the verb, its icon.

Mode or disposition is a quality of the verb by which it shows whether its subject acts (active) or is the recipient of an action by sb/sth else (passive) or simply is in a certain state (neutral). Consequently, mode or disposition = function.



eno2 said:


> What does that mean precisely, αποθετικά? That they can only be used medium passively or that they have only a μέση φωνή FORM but can be used actively also?



“Αποθετικά” (deponent in English) are the verbs which are only passive in form, but solely active in sense/mode, which means that their subject acts either transitively (with an object, e.g. δέχομαι κάτι=I receive something) or intransitively (without one, e.g. έρχομαι=I come/I am coming). They were named so, “αποθετικά”, by scholars of the Alexandrian Times, because they wrongly thought that these verbs did have some time in the past an active voice, but they dropped it later (ἀπέθεντο < ἀποτίθημι=drop) and retained just the passive one; that is, they believed that the verb “ἔρχομαι” did really have once an active form “ἔρχω”, but dropped it later.


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## eno2

Perseas said:


> Iεργάζομαι is αποθετικό (only passive forms) and is used as a middle (disposition).


My confusion stemmed  from  terminology,  I think I've got the English one right now.

There are two voices
Active voice and *medio passive* voice. (that's what I thought of as passive voice  but it's called medio passive voice  )

relationship of action between the subject and verb: (has this a name?) (was this sometimes called 'modes' here?)  (how is that called in Greek?)
active: subject acts
passive: subject receives the action
medium:  subject acts and receives the action (that's  what I thought of as 'reflexive') (I've also been confused between 'medium, middle  and medio passive)



Perseas said:


> No.
> 
> Modern Greek has two voices: active (-ω) & passive (-μαι). Βλέπ*ω* is active, λυπά*μαι* is passive.
> Modern Greek has four dispositions: active (the subject of the verb is doing an action), passive (the subject receives the action of the verb), middle (the subject does something which goes back to the subject) and neutral (the subject is in a state).


Ah you call that dispositions.
And there's a 4th one (example?)



ioanell said:


> In the following thread you will find very useful information in posts by Perseas and dmtrs.
> μέσα και αποθετικά ρήματα
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A rough explanation of the (medio)passive voice is that the verbs belonging to it, in terms of the form we write and pronounce them, have the ending -μαι in the 1st person singular of the present tense. Consequently, voice = external form of the verb, its icon.
> 
> Mode or disposition is a quality of the verb by which it shows whether its subject acts (active) or is the recipient of an action by sb/sth else (passive) or simply is in a certain state (neutral). Consequently, mode or disposition = function.
> 
> 
> 
> “Αποθετικά” (deponent in English) are the verbs which are only passive in form, but solely active in sense/mode, which means that their subject acts either transitively (with an object, e.g. δέχομαι κάτι=I receive something) or intransitively (without one, e.g. έρχομαι=I come/I am coming). They were named so, “αποθετικά”, by scholars of the Alexandrian Times, because they wrongly thought that these verbs did have some time in the past an active voice, but they dropped it later (ἀπέθεντο < ἀποτίθημι=drop) and retained just the passive one; that is, they believed that the verb “ἔρχομαι” did really have once an active form “ἔρχω”, but dropped it later.



Ah so you call the action  categories or characterizations '*modes*' or dispositions. That's complete now.
“Αποθετικά= depondant  I understood already. Now I got to know also the term  was  Alexandrian scholar's bad.  Great.
Depondants can be transitive or intransitive. OK.


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## διαφορετικός

eno2 said:


> Αποθετικά= depondant


It is called "deponent" (not "depondant" nor "dependent"). The original Latin word means "laying aside":
deponent - Wiktionary
A related English verb is "deposit":
deposit - Wiktionary

The modern Greek verb "αποθέτω" has almost the same meaning as "deposit".


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## Perseas

διαφορετικός said:


> It is called "deponent" (not "depondant" nor "dependent"). The original Latin word means "laying aside":


Indeed. The term _"deponent" verbs _is borrowed from Latin grammar.


eno2 said:


> And there's a 4th one (example?)


Ουδέτερη διάθεση (Neutral disposition): κοιμάμαι, κάθομαι, υπάρχω.

There is also this recent thread about "αποθετικά ρήματα":
μέσα και αποθετικά ρήματα


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## eno2

διαφορετικός said:


> It is called "deponent" (not "depondant" nor "dependent"). The original Latin word means "laying aside":
> deponent - Wiktionary
> A related English verb is "deposit":
> deposit - Wiktionary
> 
> The modern Greek verb "αποθέτω" has almost the same meaning as "deposit".



Deponent. Sure thanks.  That was a lapsus graffiti, badly reproduced from memory. .


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## Αγγελος

I am sure this has been explained before, but here is a not-so-brief summary:
"*Voice*" (φωνή) is a morphological category in Greek. Verbs either end in -ω in their dictionary form (1st person singular present indicative) or in -μαι. The former are in the *active voice* (ενεργητική φωνή), the latter in the *passive *(also called middle or medio-passive) voice (παθητική, μέση, μεσοπαθητική φωνή). Their whole conjugation depends on that. Similarly, nouns have grammatical *gender *- meaning that they take a particular article (ο, η, or το), that they are accompanied by suitable forms of the adjective (άσπρος βράχος, άσπρη πέτρα, άσπρο χαλίκι) etc. , and their declension depends on their gender.
Now, those grammatical categories are loosely correlated with semantic categories. Gender is loosely correlated with sex: nouns denoting male humans and animals are _usually_ masculine in gender,  nouns denoting female humans and animals are _usually_ feminine in gender, nouns denoting inanimate things _tend to be_ neuter in gender. And _some _nouns have both masculine and feminine forms, respectively denoting similar animate beings differing only in their sex: βασιλιάς/βασίλισσα, μαθητής/μαθήτρια, γάτος/γάτα... But of course, this is only a loose correlation -- αγόρι and κορίτσι are neuter, τοίχος and στέγη are masculine and feminine respectively, and βάτραχος or μύγα, though masculine and feminine respectively, in no way imply a definite sex.
Similarly, most verbs signifyng an action done by the grammatical subject  _to_ someone or something belong to the active voice and have a correlative passive form signifying that the action is done _to _the grammatical subject, either by itself or by somebody or something else: thus, πλένω =  Ι wash (something) and πλένομαι = Ι wash myself _or _I am being washed (τα ρούχα πλένονται στο πλυντήριο). The semantic relationship of the verb to its grammatical subject is traditionally called _diathesis _(=disposition) in Greek grammar, and four such diatheses are recognized: active, where the subject performs the action (I am eating an apple; I am running), middle, where the subject does something to or for itself (I am shaving (myself)), passive, where the subject undergoes the action (I am being shaven by the barber), and neutral, where no action is performed (I am sleeping; ασθενώ = I am sick). The reason why traditional grammar bothers with _diatheses _ is that in Ancient Greek, the future and aorist (only) _had different forms depending on whether the diathesis was middle or passive. _Thus, λύομαι meant both "I untie myself" and "I get untied by somebody else", but in the aorist tense "I untied myself" was ελυσάμην and "I gοt untied by somebody else" was ελύθην! (This is a gross oversimplification; the 'middle' forms could express all sorts of subtle shades of meaning that often escape us moderns, but the passive diathesis forms were usualy truly passive in meaning.) The 'middle' forms have totally disappeared from modern Greek, leaving no traces except in the confusion of the terms denoting the passive _voice._
But just as grammatical gender of nouns only has a loose correlation with sex, so also does voice of verbs only have a loose correlation with diathesis. To be sure, the active verb ζεσταίνω does mean 'to heat something up', while its passive counterpart ζεσταίνομαι neans 'to get warm' or 'to feel hot'; but the antonym κρυώνω has no passive form (there is no *κρυώνομαι!) and means both 'to cool something' and 'to feel cold'. Similarly, καθυστερώ means both 'to delay someone' and 'to be delayed', and there is no *καθυστερούμαι. And more importantly, there are a good many verbs that only exist in the passive voice: έρχομαι, δέχομαι, σκέπτομαι, εργάζομαι, φοβάμαι, ονειρεύομαι, εκμεταλλεύομαι... Some of those verbs are even transitive (i.e. express an action doe to somebody or something), and one has to resort to synonyms or circumlocutions to express what in English would be expressed by the passive construction: 'to be accepted' is γίνομαι δεκτός, 'to be exploited' is πέφτω θύμα εκμετάλλευσης, 'to be processed' is υφίσταμαι επεξεργασία etc., as amply explained in revious comments.
Βαριέμαι is one of these 'deponent' (αποθετικά) verbs, which only exist in the passive voice without being passive in meaning.
The perfect participle of deponent verbs is _sometimes _used in a passive sense: επεξεργασμένος means 'processed', παραδεδεγμένος (from παραδέχομαι, with reduplication) means 'generally accepted', ονειρεμένος means 'dreamed of'. Βαρεμένος, hoever, does not mean 'bored' (βαριεστημένος would be the closest single-word equivalent); it means 'stricken', and, in Cretan dialect, 'pregnant'!


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## dmtrs

A really good analysis, indeed, Άγγελε.
Just let me add that although you are right when you write "there is no *καθυστερούμαι", there are still some παρακείμενος (present perfect) participles that are formed as if such a verb form existed:
καθυστερημένος, παρατημένος (I wouldn't use παρατιέμαι), ευτυχισμένος (<*ευτυχίζομαι; ), δυστυχισμένος (<*δυστυχίζομαι; ) -I bet there are plenty.
Even some that do not seem to come straight from verbs:
καημένος (sure relates to καίγομαι but, I believe, through καημός)


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## dmtrs

Also (νεο)φερμένος (nothing to do with φέρομαι), τρεγμένος (as in τρεγμένα νερά) came to my mind.
Διαολεμένος is also incompatible with διαολίζομαι.
And κλαμένος is αυτός που έχει κλάψει and not αυτός που έχει κλαφτεί (as it should normally be).


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## Αγγελος

And φαγωμένος usually means 'having eaten' and therefore 'sated', though it can also mean 'eaten' (cf. σκωροφαγωμένος = moth-eaten)
And πιωμένος means 'drunk' in the sense of 'intoxicated', as in English.
But the formation and use of the perfect participle is a whole 'nother story...


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## Αγγελος

It is perfectly normal to have perfect participles formed from verbs that do not otherwise have passive forms. Cf. κρυωμένος = κρυολογημένος, αηδιασμένος, πεθαμένος...


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## eno2

Perfect participles are 2 words in English.  How do they differ from the past participle in Greek?


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## dmtrs

In fact, the present perfect participle in Greek (passive voice) is the equivalent to the English past participle:
lost = χαμένος
beaten = χτυπημένος
cut = κομμένος
drunk = πιωμένος
etc.

The past participle exists in ancient Greek, but in modern Greek is only handy (as a kind of 'relic'; not in all cases or genders; usually from passive mode, sometimes from medium) in some verbs, and in very limited and formal use: συλληφθείς, διασωθείς, ανακοινωθέν, προλαλήσαντες...


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## eno2

Equivalent, yes μετοχή αορίστου past participle

At least the MEANINGS of the so called perfect past participle don't seem to be a problem in Greek. They're the same as the verb. In Spanish, the shift of meaning in the p.p. used as an adjective is a HUGE problem for the learner.

I had a look at συλληφθείς , it means 'arrested' (by the police. That's not unusual....)  How do you call that? A passive  μετοχή?


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## dmtrs

In ancient Greek it is indeed called παθητική (passive) μετοχή.
In modern Greek it survives as just a relic, it is not considered as a form of the modern verb συλλαμβάνω, I guess you won't find it in any modern Greek Grammar.


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## eno2

I left my Greek Grammar  in Belgium....


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## Αγγελος

Once again, the interplay of ancient and modern Greek causes problems.
Ancient Greek had a fully symmetric system of participles: present, future, aorist (=past) and perfect, both active and passive, all fully inflected for gender, case and number. (There were also so-called 'middle' forms for the future and aorist, but we don't want to go into that, as they have hardly left any vestiges in the modern language. We shall also ignore the future participles, and for the same reason.) For a regular verb, such as γράφω, they were formed like this:
Present active: γράφων/γράφουσα/γράφον


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## διαφορετικός

eno2 said:


> Perfect participles are 2 words in English.


I don't understand this. Which 2 words do you mean?


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## eno2

<Perfect past participles> is even 3 words.
μετοχή. is one word.
The switch between English and Greek grammatical denominations is/can be  confusing.


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## διαφορετικός

I see, thank you.


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## eno2

dmtrs said:


> In ancient Greek it is indeed called παθητική (passive) μετοχή.
> In modern Greek it survives as just a relic, it is not considered as a form of the modern verb συλλαμβάνω, I guess you won't find it in any modern Greek Grammar.


Also  μετοχή παθητικού παρακειμένου - in Modern Greek. 
I'm under the impression that most reflexive and passive verbs have such a  μετοχή
*σηκωμένος*


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## ioanell

eno2 said:


> the so called perfect past participle



???. There is no such grammar term (or past perfect participle) in Greek, Ancient and Modern.



eno2 said:


> I'm under the impression that most reflexive and passive verbs have such a μετοχή
> *σηκωμένος*



You are right (having, of course, been clarified -in another thread, I think- that in Greek the “reflexive” verbs are called medium mode (or disposition) verbs. But, just note that many passive voice verbs don’t form this participle (e.g. αγωνίζομαι, κείτομαι, ντρέπομαι, δέχομαι, έρχομαι), whereas, on the contrary, some verbs found only in the active voice do form such a passive present perfect participle (e.g. ανθίζω>ανθισμένος).


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## eno2

ioanell said:


> ???. There is no such grammar term (or past perfect participle) in Greek, Ancient and Modern.



I was citing someone who used that term in English here. Language  denomination confusion....


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## Αγγελος

My computer ran out of power in mid-comment. Here i go again:

Once again, the interplay of ancient and modern Greek causes problems.
Ancient Greek had a fully symmetric system of participles: present, future, aorist (=past) and perfect, both active and passive, all fully inflected for gender, case and number. (There were also so-called 'middle' forms for the future and aorist, but we don't want to go into that, as they have hardly left any vestiges in the modern language. We shall also ignore the future participles, and for the same reason.) For a regular verb, such as γράφω, they were formed like this:
Present active: γράφων/γράφουσα/γράφον Passive: γραφόμενος/γραφομένη/γραφόμενον
Aorist active: γράψας/γράψασα/γράψαν  Passive: γραφείς/γραφεῖσα/γραφέν
Perfect active: γεγραφώς/γεγραφυῖα/γεγραφός Passive: γεγραμμένος/-η/-ον
The aorist participles, both active and passive, are often used in modern Greek, even though, strictly speaking, they do not belong to its grammatical system. One often encounters phrases such as οι διατελέσαντες πρωθυπουργοί (=those who_ once were_ prime ministers), οι συλληφθέντες (= those who were arrested), η διδαχθείσα ύλη (=material actually covered in class, as opposed to η διδακτέα ύλη = material supposed to be taught), etc. The present active particiles are also used occasionally: ο γράφων (=the present writer), οι διδάσκοντες (=teaching personnel), διάττοντες αστέρες (=shooting stars)... A foreign learner would want to be able to recognize such forms, though probably not actively use them.
Once in a very long while, even active perfect participles may be encountered: the neuter nouns γεγονός (=fact, event) and καθεστώς (=régime) are such fossilized forms, as is the adjective καθεστηκυία τάξη (=established order). Passive present and perfect participles are, of course, very much alive in the modern language. Ancient forms of the perfect passive participle, exhibiting reduplication, are also encountered: κεκλιμένο επίπεδο (=inclined plan, from κλίνω), διακεκριμένος (=distinguished, from διακρίνω), κατειλημμένος (=taken, busy, unavailable, from καταλαμβάνω) etc.


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