# σκέψου κι ένα άλλο!



## ianis

σκέψου κι ένα άλλο! - The phrase in the context seems to suggest "there is another sketch/plan" but there is no verb and σκέψου is in the genitive. So how exactly does one read it?
BTW this appears in Για Την Πατρίδα.


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## Perseas

The verb is «σκέψου». It’s past imperative, 2nd person, passive voice. The verb in present tense is «σκέφτομαι» (think).


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## ianis

Thank you very much Perseas. Can't remember the audio-courses mentioning any past imperative in Modern Greek and since the modern form is σκέπτομαι, this would be a word from Ancient Greek surviving in a modern expression, correct?


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## Perseas

You are welcome.

With regard to morphology the forms below are all past imperatives in Modern Greek. But in terms of semantics they don't refer to the past, they refer to a future action.

2nd person sing./2nd p. pl
λύσε/λύστε,
λύσου/λυθείτε
σκέψου/σκεφτείτε
δέσε/δέστε
δέσου/δεθείτε etc.


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## διαφορετικός

Perseas said:


> are all past imperatives in Modern Greek


Why do you call it "past" imperative?

(In contrast, on the following page
σκέφτομαι - Wiktionary
it is called "perfective imperative")


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## ianis

διαφορετικός said:


> Why do you call it "past" imperative?
> 
> (In contrast, on the following page
> σκέφτομαι - Wiktionary
> it is called "perfective imperative")


This might be because "perfect" indicates an action that has been concluded, perfect "I have done" and "pluperfect" "I had done". But will leave it to the experts.


Perseas said:


> The verb is «σκέψου». It’s past imperative, 2nd person, passive voice. The verb in present tense is «σκέφτομαι» (think).


Thanks again Perseas. Among other things a more complete dictionary will be on the wishing list.


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## Perseas

διαφορετικός said:


> Why do you call it "past" imperative?
> 
> (In contrast, on the following page
> σκέφτομαι - Wiktionary
> it is called "perfective imperative")


In Greek "σκέψου" is called "προστακτική αορίστου". In English: "imperative aorist/past".

"Perfective" refers to the aspect of the verb.
I found this: "The perfective aspect (abbreviated PFV), sometimes called the aoristic aspect, is a grammatical aspect that describes an action viewed as a simple whole".
Perfective aspect - Wikipedia


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## ianis

ianis said:


> This might be because "perfect" indicates an action that has been concluded, perfect "I have done" and "pluperfect" "I had done". But will leave it to the experts.


I didn't know this imperative but it appears in the book Τα Ρηματα Της Νεας Ελληνικης and is called in Greek Προστακτικη Αοριστος, which the aoristos imperative or the equivalente of past imperative, don't know if that's why it is called perfective in English.


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## ianis

Perseas said:


> In Greek "σκέψου" is called "προστακτική αορίστου". In English: "imperative aorist/past".
> 
> "Perfective" refers to the aspect of the verb.
> I found this: "The perfective aspect (abbreviated PFV), sometimes called the aoristic aspect, is a grammatical aspect that describes an action viewed as a simple whole".
> Perfective aspect - Wikipedia


Thanks for the link.


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## διαφορετικός

Thanks, Perseas.


Perseas said:


> In Greek "σκέψου" is called "προστακτική αορίστου". In English: "imperative aorist/past".


I see. I find the term "aorist(ic) imperative" more appropriate than "past imperative".


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## Perseas

διαφορετικός said:


> I find the term "aorist(ic) imperative" more appropriate than "past imperative".


In general, the "simple past" corresponds to "αόριστος" (sometimes to "παρατατικός"), and the "past continuous" usually corresponds to "παρατατικός".


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## διαφορετικός

Perseas said:


> In general, the "simple past" corresponds to "αόριστος" (sometimes to "παρατατικός"), and the "past continuous" usually corresponds to "παρατατικός".


And as far as I know, the (modern Greek) "aorist imperative" has its name from the aorist because of its aoristic (or perfective) meaning (the "aspect"), which it has in common with the aorist, and maybe also because it has usually the stem of an aorist. (Well, in the case of σκέψου, it would be the aorist of the active voice, which does not exist for this verb - it has only passive forms.)


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## Perseas

διαφορετικός said:


> And as far as I know, the (modern Greek) "aorist imperative" has its name from the aorist because of its aoristic (or perfective) meaning (the "aspect"), which it has in common with the aorist, and maybe also because it has usually the stem of an aorist. (Well, in the case of σκέψου, it would be the aorist of the active voice, which does not exist for this verb - it has only passive forms.)


Exactly! 

All tenses in subjunctive (υποτακτική) and imperative (προστακτική) mood (έγκλιση) refer to future actions, at least in independent sentences. For example: _Ας έλθει εδώ!_ ... "Ας έλθει" is aorist subjunctive but refers to a future action.


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## ianis

Perseas at the risk of taking too much of your time but even with the links it's difficult to understand in which way the sentence σκέψου κι ένα άλλο! can differ in meaning from a present imperative, unless it is translated as something like "you must have pondered also an/one other!" vs. the present imperative "Ponder also an/one other!".

Edited "think" for "ponder" because it seems to sound better and maybe "consider" would sound even better.


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## Perseas

ianis said:


> Perseas at the risk of taking too much of your time but even with the links it's difficult to understand in which way the sentence σκέψου κι ένα άλλο! can differ in meaning from a present imperative, unless it is translated as something like "you must have pondered also an/one other!" vs. the present imperative "Ponder also an/one other!".


Hi ianis,

no, the difference is not like that. It's a matter of the aspect and not of the tense.
A present imperative is viewed as a general order ("you should think" or "keep on thinking").
An aorist imperative is viewed as specific order: "think/ponder now (about this)".


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## ianis

Perseas said:


> Hi ianis,
> 
> no, the difference is not like that. It's a matter of the aspect and not of the tense.
> A present imperative is viewed as a general order ("you should think" or "keep on thinking").
> An aorist imperative is viewed as specific order: "think/ponder now (about this)".


Double thanks this clarifies it.


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## Helleno File

You have my sympathy, ianis. Whatever terminology we use, distinguishing between continuous and perfective aspects with imperative verbs is difficult for learners! Add different stems for singular and plural voices of passive verbs_ at the same time_ it can be a challenge! As I say, that's what makes Greek such fun!


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## ianis

Helleno File said:


> You have my sympathy, ianis. Whatever terminology we use, distinguishing between continuous and perfective aspects with imperative verbs is difficult for learners! Add different stems for singular and plural voices of passive verbs_ at the same time_ it can be a challenge! As I say, that's what makes Greek such fun!


Agreed.


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## Αγγελος

I never understood why the simple past tense is called αόριστος (literally 'indefinite') in Greek. But in other moods than the indicative, the tense that is called αόριστος has nothing to do with the past -- it simply expresses something that happens once (or a definite number of times) and is finished, while the ενεστώς (present) tense expresses something that is ongoing or repeated. Thus:
(subjunctive present) να μου γράφεις κάθε βδομάδα = (imperative present) γράφε μου κάθε βδομάδα = write to me every week
(subjunctive aorist) να μου γράψεις όταν φτάσεις = (imperative aorist) γράψε μου όταν φτάσεις = write to me when you arrive.
In the passive voice, the imperative present is hardly ever used. We use the subjunctive instead: να με θυμάσαι, να με σκέφτεσαι = remember me, think of me (constantly)
The aorist, however, is very much alive, also in the imperative: γράψου στο σύλλογο = join the club, θυμήσου με = remember me (when you get rich, e.g.), σκέψου το  = think about it (and come to a conclusion).
A curious fact about the passive imperative aorist is that in the singular it is normally formed from the _active_ aorist stem (ντύσου = get dressed, ξυρίσου = shave), even when the verb does not exist in the active voice (as with θυμήσου and σκέψου), while the plural is formed from the passive aorist stem, as expected (ντυθείτε, ξυριστείτε, θυμηθείτε, σκεφτείτε).
Νo one said Greek was easy!


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