# Names, romanization, weird characters



## xinelo

Hello,

I'm trying to find resources about names in Turkish and I have the following problems. I would be greatful if someone could help me with that. I promise I'll include your name(s) in my acknowledgments page in my thesis.

 I can't post URLs to the webpage (unhandy! :/ ) so I'll post the words that you need to type in Google to find the web site (in case you want to go to the original source). Alternatively, if you need more examples just let me know and I'll post them.

*FIRST ISSUE: name**

In the page about Turkish names (Google: adlar site:tonyukuk.net) I've found some names end in *. There is the following explanation but I don't understand Turkish neither have I found a good online machine translator that helps me with that (only crappy translations which I couldn't make out).

I would find extremely helpful if someone could explain me the gist of the following paragraph.



> Müşterek olan erkek ve kız adları, aşağıdaki dizinde, gerek erkek adları ve gerekse kız adları bölüklerinde, yanlarına bir * işâreti konmak sureti ile belli edilmişlerdir. Erkek adları bölüğünde yanlarında * işâreti olmayan adlar yalnız erkek çocuklarına, kız adları bölüğünde yanlarında * işâreti olmayan adlar yalnız kız çocuklarına verilebilirler.


*SECOND ISSUE: Romanization in the press

*I can find resources explaining how to romanize or transliterate non-Roman scripts, but what I need is something different. For example, Turkish is already written in Roman script but the special characters it has are adapted in English press. For example, I haven't found any news talking about *Abdullatif Şener* in the NYTimes, instead you can only find references to* Abdullatif Sener*. 

* <ş**:s>* (the colon means transfer) is an obvious case, but I don't know what happens with <ı> or <ğ>. I would guess what the reporter does is *<ı:i>*, <*ç:c*> and *<ğ:g>* but how can I be sure? 

So, I'd like to ask for two things. 

First: would you please let me know of any resource (only or otherwise) you may know of which explains how those characters are to be rendered in the press in English? Not only for Turkish but for any language, whether originally written in Roman script or not. 

Second: if you don't know of any such resource but you're a Turkish and are familiar with this kind of adaptation, could you roughly summarise it here? 

*THIRD ISSUE (am I asking too much?): Weird characters *

In a page about Turkish names (Google: Turkish Names site:geocities.com) I've found some weird characters which, as far as I'm aware, are not regular characters of the Turkish spelling system. It's not a problem of my browser's character codification (ISO-8859-1) because the HTML code has those characters coded as entities (eg. Asðm is coded as As&eth;m). 

What I'd like to ask is what would be the Turkish characters normally used (in Turkish) to spelling those words? Some of them are:

î: Abdülhamîd, Kayî, Kîzîbas
þ: Afþar, Erþat, Þeref, Þerif, Þevket
ð: Akðn, Asðm, Aydðn, Sðdðk
Ð: Ðsa, Ðshak, Ðskender
â: Gâwân, Âlî
¤: Yi¤It, Ça¤Atay, Ça¤Layan

--
That's all! Any help would be very appreciated and I would be eternally greatful!!  
xinelo


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## Honour

Saludos



			
				xinelo said:
			
		

> Hello,
> 
> I'm trying to find resources about names in Turkish and I have the following problems. I would be greatful if someone could help me with that. I promise I'll include your name(s) in my acknowledgments page in my thesis.
> 
> I can't post URLs to the webpage (unhandy! :/ ) so I'll post the words that you need to type in Google to find the web site (in case you want to go to the original source). Alternatively, if you need more examples just let me know and I'll post them.
> 
> *FIRST ISSUE: name**
> 
> In the page about Turkish names (Google: adlar site:tonyukuk.net) I've found some names end in *. There is the following explanation but I don't understand Turkish neither have I found a good online machine translator that helps me with that (only crappy translations which I couldn't make out).
> 
> I would find extremely helpful if someone could explain me the gist of the following paragraph.
> 
> 
> *SECOND ISSUE: Romanization in the press*
> 
> I can find resources explaining how to romanize or transliterate non-Roman scripts, but what I need is something different. For example, Turkish is already written in Roman script but the special characters it has are adapted in English press. For example, I haven't found any news talking about *Abdullah Oçalan* in the NYTimes, instead you can only references to* Abdullah Ocalan*.
> 
> *<ç:c>* (the colon means transfer) is an obvious case, but I don't know what happens with <ı> or <ğ>. I would guess what the reporter does is *<ı:i>* and *<ğ:g>* but how can I be sure?
> 
> So, I'd like to ask for two things.
> 
> First: would you please let me know of any resource (only or otherwise) you may know of which explains how those characters are to be rendered in the press in English? Not only for Turkish but for any language, whether originally written in Roman script or not.
> 
> Second: if you don't know of any such resource but you're a Turkish and are familiar with this kind of adaptation, could you roughly summarise it here?
> 
> *when we have to write our names in english or other langs. we change the letters as follows;*
> *ş (s with the hook)> s or sh , you can offen see it is written denktash instead of denkaş in politics.*
> *Ğ(soft g)> g*
> *İ(capital i )>I or i*
> *ı (miniscule I)>i or I*
> *ü (u with double dots on it) > u*
> *ö> (o with double dots on it) >o*
> *ç (c with the hook) >c or ch*
> 
> *THIRD ISSUE (am I asking too much?): Weird characters *
> 
> In a page about Turkish names (Google: Turkish Names site:geocities.com) I've found some weird characters which, as far as I'm aware, are not regular characters of the Turkish spelling system. It's not a problem of my browser's character codification (ISO-8859-1) because the HTML code has those characters coded as entities (eg. Asðm is coded as As&eth;m).
> 
> What I'd like to ask is what would be the Turkish characters normally used (in Turkish) to spelling those words? Some of them are:
> 
> î: Abdülhamîd, Kayî, Kîzîbas
> þ: Afþar, Erþat, Þeref, Þerif, Þevket
> *that is "s with a hook under it", read as "sh"*
> ð: Akðn, Asðm, Aydðn, Sðdðk
> *that is miniscule i without a dot on top of it. When you say dungeon for example, sound just before n in the eon part is symolized by this vovel.*
> 
> Ð: Ðsa, Ðshak, Ðskender
> *that is capital i with a dot on top of it. It is read same as the english "E"*
> â: Gâwân, Âlî .
> *First one is kurdish i think. Ali is written w/o accents.*
> ¤: Yi¤It, Ça¤Atay, Ça¤Layan that.
> *That is kinda hard, soft g . G with a upside down accent circonflexe on top of it. You may emulate its sound best by omitting it when reading. In fact we read it as italian "g" in figlio.*
> 
> --
> That's all! Any help would be very appreciated and I would be eternally greatful!!
> xinelo


 
Müşterek olan erkek ve kız adları, aşağıdaki dizinde, gerek erkek adları ve gerekse kız adları bölüklerinde, yanlarına bir * işâreti konmak sureti ile belli edilmişlerdir. Erkek adları bölüğünde yanlarında * işâreti olmayan adlar yalnız erkek çocuklarına, kız adları bölüğünde yanlarında * işâreti olmayan adlar yalnız kız çocuklarına verilebilirler. 

*Unisex names are indicated with * sign nearby. Names not signed in both coloums are gender specific. that is the summary .*


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## xinelo

Dear Turk eyefendi, 

This is great, exactly what I needed. Teşekkür ederim!! 

I assume you missed a <t> when you wrote the name in Turkish, didn't you? 





			
				Turk said:
			
		

> when we have to write our names in english or other langs. we change the letters as follows;
> ş (s with the hook)> s or sh , you can offen see it is written denk*t*ash instead of denkaş in politics.


Regarding the weird characters, I'm not sure about your reply regarding <î> and <â>, which are not normal letters of Turkish to the best of my knowledge. 


			
				Turk said:
			
		

> î: Abdülhamîd, Kayî, Kîzîbas
> â: Gâwân, Âlî .
> *First one is kurdish i think. Ali is written w/o accents.*


I add some names with each to that you might be sure of what letter that character stands for: 
*<î>*: Abdülhamîd, Abdülmecîd, Abdulmuîn, Aksemseddîn, Al-Ghawrî, Âlî, Balîm, Bâyezîd, Haccî, Hüdâyî, Kalkashandî, Kayî, Kîzîbas, Kutbeddîn, Lutfî, Mesîh, Nasîr, Nasreddîn, Nesîmî, Nesrî, Resîd, Sâhîn, Sâmîzâde, Sarî, Savcî, Sihâbeddîn, Sînâ, Takiyyüddîn, Yîldîrîm, Zümrüt
*<â>*: Alâeddin, Âlî, Bâyezîd, Celâl, Cerrâh, Dâvûd, Evliyâ, Fadlullâh, Gâwân, Hüdâyî, Isâ, Ishâk, Ismâil, Jalâl, Kâdi, Kâdizâde, Kâmil, Kâsim, Kâtip, Maulânâ, Murâd, Mûsâ, Nizâm, Osmân, Râgib, Sâhîn, Sâmîzâde, Selmân, Shâhrukh, Sihâb, Sihâbeddîn, Sînâ, Süccâ, Lâtife, Mihrimâh, Zümrüt

Any further comments?

Thank you very much again, your reply really helps me a lot. 
xinelo

PS: By the way, I removed the reference to Oçalan and used Şener instead, I didn't want to offend anyone.


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## Honour

xinelo said:
			
		

> Dear Turk *B*eyefendi,
> 
> This is great, exactly what I needed. Teşekkür ederim!!
> *Rica ederim, zevkle*.
> I assume you missed a <t> when you wrote the name in Turkish, didn't you?
> *Oh well yes, i have forgotten to write t, it is obviously denktaş.*
> Regarding the weird characters, I'm not sure about your reply regarding <î> and <â>, which are not normal letters of Turkish to the best of my knowledge.
> I add some names with each to that you might be sure of what letter that character stands for:
> *<î>*: Abdülhamîd, Abdülmecîd, Abdulmuîn, Aksemseddîn, Al-Ghawrî, Âlî, Balîm, Bâyezîd, Haccî, Hüdâyî, Kalkashandî, Kayî, Kîzîbas, Kutbeddîn, Lutfî, Mesîh, Nasîr, Nasreddîn, Nesîmî, Nesrî, Resîd, Sâhîn, Sâmîzâde, Sarî, Savcî, Sihâbeddîn, Sînâ, Takiyyüddîn, Yîldîrîm, Zümrüt
> *<â>*: Alâeddin, Âlî, Bâyezîd, Celâl, Cerrâh, Dâvûd, Evliyâ, Fadlullâh, Gâwân, Hüdâyî, Isâ, Ishâk, Ismâil, Jalâl, Kâdi, Kâdizâde, Kâmil, Kâsim, Kâtip, Maulânâ, Murâd, Mûsâ, Nizâm, Osmân, Râgib, Sâhîn, Sâmîzâde, Selmân, Shâhrukh, Sihâb, Sihâbeddîn, Sînâ, Süccâ, Lâtife, Mihrimâh, Zümrüt
> 
> Any further comments?
> *vd. tiene razón; î doesn't exist in turkish alphabet however we sometimes use "â". For example, hala means aunt (abuela if i am not mistaken) but hâla means still,(aún o todavía, i am not sure) and the former one is read shortly and latter one is read more open and accent reflects that. Some linguists use it and some don't. There isn't a consensus over circonflexe utilization over a in Turkish.*
> 
> Thank you very much again, your reply really helps me a lot.
> xinelo
> 
> PS: By the way, I removed the reference to Oçalan and used Şener instead, I didn't want to offend anyone.
> *That is kind of you. Gracias.*
> *For any further questions feel free to mail me... *


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## ukuca

Dear Xinelo, Turkish keyboads (Q and F) has these caracters: "ş,ğ,ü,ç,ş,ı,ö" . I guess the easiest way of using these caracters without copying would be ordering one from any computer dealer's website in Turkey. I know it's a little bit bothersome 

But: <î> and <â> doesn't exist in Turkish keyboard either. There are some arguments on them such as Are they still in effect or not. I honestly don't know what eventually the authorities had decided.

And:
*hala = *tía (sister of dad)
*hâla = *aún or todavía


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## Jana337

> *THIRD ISSUE (am I asking too much?):*


Certainly not but you should have opened three threads. It facilitates orientation in the forum. Please comply with this rule next time. 

Jana


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## xinelo

Jana337 said:
			
		

> Certainly not but you should have opened three threads. It facilitates orientation in the forum. Please comply with this rule next time.


Ups, sorry Jana. I certainly didn't mean to break any rules. I posted the three issues together because they are narrowly interrelated. Thanks, xinelo


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## xinelo

> Dear Turk *B*eyefendi,


Ups, thank you  



> *Rica ederim, zevkle*.


Is  this something like "You're welcome, it's a pleasure" ? 



> it is obviously denktaş.


Fine.



> vd. tiene razón; î doesn't exist in turkish alphabet however we sometimes use "â". For example, hala means aunt (abuela if i am not mistaken) but hâla means still,(aún o todavía, i am not sure) and the former one is read shortly and latter one is read more open and accent reflects that. Some linguists use it and some don't. There isn't a consensus over circonflexe utilization over _a _in Turkish.


Ok, thanks again. 

xinelo


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## xinelo

ukuca said:
			
		

> I guess the easiest way of using these caracters without copying would be ordering [a Turkish keyboard] from any computer dealer's website in Turkey.


Thanks ukuca. The thing is that I don't need a Turkish keyboard. I can set my keyboard to type with those characters, and most of the characters are the same and stay in the same place, so no problem about that. 

I just wanted to know how these special characters are rendered in English, where usually diacritics or accents are lost (because most writers wouldn't know how to write them and most readers wouldn't know what to make out of them). And this is how I think it happens, summed up:

ş -> s or sh
ğ -> g
ü -> u
ö -> o
ç -> c or ch
İ(capital i ) -> I or i (so you can find both *ikeme *or*Ikeme *instead of *İkeme*)
 ı (minuscule I) ->i or I (so you can find both *Calik *or*   ÇalIk* instead of *   Çalık*)
*î -> i (?)
â -> a(?)
*
By the way, something else: I'm intrigued about why one find those weird characters *(þ, ð, **¤, etc.)* in Turkish instead of the normal ones *(ı,** ş, ğ, etc.**)*. Why is  this? Can you explain? 

Obrigado, xinelo


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## Honour

@ukuca, düzeltme için teşekkürler.ispanyolcam yerle bir durumda 

@xinelo; rica ederim, zevkle is as you say; "you're welcome, my pleasure"
you may change î > i and â> a. That is the only option you could do.
Weird characters come up when there is a problem about encoding of the browser. I often face with this problem when i use opera.Nevertheless, i like that browser


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## xinelo

Thanks Turk.


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## ukuca

Dear Xinelo, that may be a problem for foreigners but any Turkish can understand in the context whether you type ş for s, ı for i, etc... .
Addition to Turk, I guess weird caracters come up like this:
*þ = *for* ğ*
*ð = *for *ş*
*¤ = *for* ı *
You can think as they were typed (ğ,ş,ı,ö,ü)

(I don't remember *ö* and *ü*,Turk a little help here.)


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## xinelo

Well, that's more than an addition to what Turk said, in fact that's a correction! 

Turk sadi:



			
				Turk said:
			
		

> þ: *that is "s with a hook under it", read as "sh"*
> ð: *that is miniscule i without a dot on top of it.*
> ¤: *That is kinda hard, soft g . G with a upside down accent circonflexe on top of it.*



And you (Ukuca), if I understand, say:


			
				ukuca said:
			
		

> *þ = *for* ğ*
> *ð = *for *ş*
> *¤ = *for* ı *



??


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## Outsider

I found the following:



> In Turkish, until recently, the modern (Latin-based) Turkish alphabet introduced in the time of Kemal Atatürk used the circumflex accent to indicate when a vowel was to be pronounced in a way more native (usually by stretching it out somewhat) to Farsi and Arabic. Words featuring such an accent, such as _kâtib_ ("scribe"), _ilâhî_ ("divine"), or _Kâmile_ (a woman's name) are generally loanwords distinguishable from true Turkish words, and were represented easily in the Arabic script used in the Ottoman Turkish language.
> 
> Wikipedia


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## ukuca

Correction to my scriptOlder post was wrong [my fault, sorry])
I think you should count on Turk on this subject. I believe he knows much more than me about computers and electronics. As I searched, for exemple 


.............. Burada gerçekten geçmiþte nelerin hayal edildiðini ve taþlara nasýl
yansýtýldýðýný görüyoruz. O dönemde dünyayý tepeden nasýl seyretmeye çalýþýldýðýný görüyoruz..............​ 
*þ = *for* ş*
*ý* = for *ı*
*¤ *or* ð*= for* ğ*

In this text *ö* and *ü *do not cause any problems


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## xinelo

tHANKS, Outsider. Interesting!


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## xinelo

ukuca said:
			
		

> Older post was wrong [my fault, sorry])


Ok, no problem.


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