# Difference between French in Quebec and in France?



## JLanguage

MODERATOR'S NOTE: This thread now includes several threads posted on the same topic over the past years.
NOTE DE LA MODÉRATON : Ce fil comprend maintenant plusieurs fils sur le même thème affichés au cours des dernières années.


Hi, I don't know French, but I was thinking about it, and I would like to know the differences in speech and in writing.

Thanks in Advance,
-Jonathan.


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## scandalously in love

well, I'm not a native speaker, but I'll give you my attempt at a broad generalization...

It would be quite like N. American and British English.  

1.  Pronunciation is different; accents are different.

2.  Words have different meanings.  First example that comes to mind is the adjective _plein(e)_.  In Québec, when a person says it, it can mean they are full of food, whereas in France, it means they are pregnant!

3.  Expressions are different.  You have Québec idioms that mean not very much to a Parisien french speaker, and vice versa.  (can't think of any...)

So that's just a warmer-up post  Stick around until a speaker wise and native (hehe) answers your question.


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## Cath.S.

> the adjective _plein(e)_. In Québec, when a person says it, it can mean they are full of food whereas in France, it means they are pregnant!


Hi SIL,  no one would use that expression to refer to an expectant mother in France, it would be perceived as very insulting indeed!   
The term is sometimes used to refer to pregant non-human females. 
In slang,_ il est plein_ = he is inebriated.

Now to the difficult part.  
There is another thread on exactly the same topic, here!


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## Agnès E.

And Gil gave us some days ago a nice link about Quebec French : 

http://www.angelfire.com/pq/lexique/lexique.html

Just for info.


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## patrickr

I`m trying to learn french.  I read that Quebec french is as dissimilar from france french as american english is from british english.  Can I get some opinions on if thats true or an exaggeration?  It would be a shame to spend so many hours learning the language one way through audio programs and sites like this if I don`t sound native at all here in Montreal.  My goal is to be completely billingual to the point that locals can`t tell that I`m anglophone.

thanks all.


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## HogansIslander

Well, I wouldn't worry too much about this.  If you are living in Montreal (or really, anywhere in Canada), you are not going to somehow come out with a Parisian accent unless you somehow manage to avoid all contact with Canadian francophones.  Since the francophone radio and TV are almost all Quebecois accents, you are going to hear a lot of this accent as you learn.  A few audio-tapes and occasional France French movies are not going to make that much difference unless you are going out of your way to learn it the France French way.

But if you are concerned about it, I would recommend conversing with native Quebecois as much as possible, trying to get a Quebecois teacher whenever possible if you are taking any classes/lessons, and exposing oneself to Quebecois media as frequently as can be done.  Even here in Vancouver, far from the French-speaking heartland, there is French radio and TV, and with the internet you can get a lot more of it.  

In the end, however, sounding native is going to take years and years.   Losing your English accent is pretty damn hard


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## Tsoman

patrickr said:


> its less the accent and more idiomatic expressions that concern me.  I've lived in Montreal all my life so my french accent isn 't horrible but needs serious work.  thanks.



So do you speak french, but it's just that you have an english accent?

When I went to montreal, it seemed like almost everyone was speaking french (even though to me they could speak enlglish also).

Is it normal for an anglo montrealer to not speak French?

Interesting topic. Quebec fascinates me


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## badgrammar

Québecois French does have a lot of great expressions, many of which take their roots in the catholic-based traditions there - like "Sacristi!", or "Mes amènes!" (not sure I wrote that correctly) lots of the swear words hare very blasphemous.

There are also lots of vocabulary differences.  "Ma blonde" means my girlfriend/wife (slang), no matter what her hair color is.  "Mes gosses" does not mean "my kids" as it does in FF, it rather means "My testicles"...  So no asking colleaugues "Ca va, les gosses"? 

There are surely lots of good (and probably fun) websites on QF.  Their French always seems more colorful to me.


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## xtrasystole

LjeviGuz said:


> I would really like to know if I start learning French here in Canada that it will be understood in France


Of course, it will. Differences only concern the vocabulary (some words), and the accent.


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## tilt

First, I want to say there is NO Parisian French; there is French from France. Paris is not France! 

That said, there are, indeed, several differences between French from Quebec and from France, but each one understands easily the other one. You'll just have to take care of some words that have different meanings on both side of the ocean (let's speak about the famous _gosses_! ).

Not trying to lose any Canadian accent once in France is the best insurance to avoid confusion in my opinion; especially when you think that Canadian accent is a real benefit for flirting.


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## LjeviGuz

tilt said:


> First, I want to say there is NO Parisian French; there is French from France. Paris is not France!
> 
> That said, there are, indeed, several differences between French from Quebec and from France, but each one understands easily the other one. You'll just have to take care of some words that have different meanings on both side of the ocean (let's speak about the famous _gosses_! ).
> 
> Not trying to lose any Canadian accent once in France is the best insurance to avoid confusion in my opinion; especially when you think that Canadian accent is a real benefit for flirting.



I didn't mean to step on any toes here, I know that there is a France outside of Paris. 

Now on to the Canadian French accent. So when you said Canadian Accent is a real benefit for flertin (can you elaborate more on this sentence, and as well as Canadian accent in France in general)

What i mostly try to do when moving to a new country and adopting a new language is to quickly pick up on the accent asap. So you sound proper, but having an outsider accent has proven quite beneficial on a lot of occasions here in Canada.


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## polaire

tilt said:


> First, I want to say there is NO Parisian French; there is French from France. Paris is not France!
> 
> That said, there are, indeed, several differences between French from Quebec and from France, but each one understands easily the other one. You'll just have to take care of some words that have different meanings on both side of the ocean (let's speak about the famous _gosses_! ).
> 
> Not trying to lose any Canadian accent once in France is the best insurance to avoid confusion in my opinion; especially when you think that Canadian accent is a real benefit for flirting.



Uh oh, I know this is going to be ... controversial.   But isn't the French accent that educated foreigners are taught usually some form of "northern" Parisian French?  Not "Titi Parisien" French, but, for want of a better term, "Sorbonne French"?  In other words, the accent used on my Hachette pronunciation tapes, which I believe were produced by academics?


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## tilt

polaire said:


> Uh oh, I know this is going to be ... controversial.   But isn't the French accent that educated foreigners are taught usually some form of "northern" Parisian French?  Not "Titi Parisien" French, but, for want of a better term, "Sorbonne French"?  In other words, the accent used on my Hachette pronunciation tapes, which I believe were produced by academics?


Of course, this makes sense. But would you say "the New-Yorker English" to refer to the American one? And, anyway, the question was about vocabulary and grammar, which are the same all over France. After all, why not calling it French French? 

About Canadian accent in France, I just meant that French people have undoubtly a positive a priori with it, like with English accent, whereas others (German, for example) do not sound so... cute.


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## Gil

LjeviGuz said:


> Also if someone would help me figure out what place/school would be best helping me to learn the proper Parisian French (Toronto area).



Try l'Alliance française there
They probably have the accent you're looking for, but watch out:  if they come from Toulouse, Marseille, Brest, Strasbourg, etc...it might be a little different...and interesting


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## la petite anglaise

tilt said:


> That said, there are, indeed, several differences between French from Quebec and from France, but each one understands easily the other one. You'll just have to take care of some words that have different meanings on both side of the ocean (let's speak about the famous _gosses_! ).


 
I am intrigued- I know from my time as an assistant that 'les gosses' is slang for 'kids'- but what does it mean in Canadian French then?


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## Gil

la petite anglaise said:


> I am intrigued- I know from my time as an assistant that 'les gosses' is slang for 'kids'- but what does it mean in Canadian French then?


It means "nuts"


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## aftereight

la petite anglaise said:


> I am intrigued- I know from my time as an assistant that 'les gosses' is slang for 'kids'- but what does it mean in Canadian French then?



It means balls in Quebec.


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## xtrasystole

la petite anglaise said:


> the "purest" French would be in the Loire Valley region maybe, although I may be wrong.


No you are not. People from the Touraine region are considered to speak French without any particular accent.


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## Stantler

I had a discussion today with a lady (don't ask how we got on the topic) about who speaks the 'true' french language.  It started with a comment from me about Quebec french having a lot of slang compared to parisien french....to which she took quite a bit of offence and insisted that Quebec french was the true french and Parisian was a 'bastardized' version of the real language.  

As it's not a topic that I have really thought much about, but apparently she has.  And it surprised me that she would think that way, because in my mind I would put my money on original french coming from France!  Her argument is tantamount to saying North American colony english is the real thing and the Brits speak a bastardized version.

I obviously believe the 'original' french comes from France....but is there anything to what she's saying in so far as changes or modernization of Parisien french?


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## Salvatos

I'll make it short since these topics tend to devolve into arguments and  start by saying that no one speaks "ze true French" - because such a thing does not exist. In literature, there  is one standardized French that will be understood by any French  speaker, regardless of their origins. Formally, a similar  standardisation can be achieved in speech, but it's not found on the colloquial  level. All dialects have evolved from the same language, and they now  all have their specific features - and Parisian French being spoken in  France doesn't really make it any holier for that sole reason. _If anything_, its number of speakers should be what gives it its status, but in the end, for me, it's like apples: whether your prefer red or green ones, they're still apples, and the red ones being more popular doesn't make them objectively better 

This article is a good, short read:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_French (the last paragraph being  more a matter of opinions than facts).

Now as for Québec French being the true variant... no. It is not the  source of it and it is not the reference. What is interesting to note is  that some of our pronunciations are inherited from the way the French  spoke when they colonized North America (since a large portion of our ancestors were French to begin with). They did not follow the same  course as imperial French and were possibly slower to change due to lack  of communication between empire and colony and a desire from the  settlers to speak what was then proper French. It is therefore ironic that some people say Québec French or its accent are bastardized forms, since they're actually closer to what used to be the norm (and I don't think that makes them better nor worse).

As a result, we also still use many idioms that rely on word meanings that are now considered archaic elsewhere. For instance, amancher probably means nothing in France nowadays (otherwise my example is not the best but still works), but it is common in Québec (and Acadia apparently). And if you have a look at its entry on XMLittré*, you will see that #2 is one of the meanings still in use here. But that doesn't make Québec French better in any way, nor do I personally see it as archaic as a whole, but rather a different evolution of a same basis; "amancher", for example, is indeed archaic in France, but here it simply remained contemporary and evolved.

On a last note, I wouldn't say Québec French has more _slang_ (it's difficult to assess such a thing), I think it's rather that our familiar register might sit farther from standard French than the ones in Europe. You could actually consider Québec French a slang form of French, so if you're judging from there, it's hard to pinpoint what is slang and what's just part of the dialect. Because otherwise, our formal form is (mostly) the same. It's the step from formal to familiar that may be bigger here.

Well, I hope that helped  Just keep in mind that it's mostly a matter of opinion and there's never a language or dialect that is better than the others!

* « Ce site propose une version interrogeable en ligne du dictionnaire de la langue française d'Émile Littré. Cet ouvrage a été publié à partir de 1863, puis dans sa deuxième édition en 1872-1877. » (Proof of "true French" origins.)


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## Kikurukina

Don't forget that there are French speakers in New Brunswick and they have their kind of French that is different from Quebec. French in Quebec varies by region as well. The French in Abitibi-Temiscamingue is not the same for as the one in Saguenay, Montreal or Quebec City. Quebec, the province, is kind of big, afterall.

Off the top of my mind, Quebec French has a lot of neologisms from English--that is, Franglish/franglais, because we have such close English neighbours. There are too many to name that I'm not even sure if I'm making them up or that everyone else uses them. It's a language that evolves everyday and no one can really keep track of it. You could find some slang dictionaries on the internet but those are not chiselled in stone. I've never heard anyone tell me to go fart in some clovers so I would not bet on their authenticity yet.

An example that we had used in class to study was the English verb "fuck." (No, really!) Fuck has various meanings in English. The obvious one and then the one that says "This computer is fucked up," as in messed up or broken. In French, I am more inclined to say "Ce ordi est fucké!" instead of "Ce ordi ne fonctionne pas!" in an informal setting.

At the same time, since our French is fairly isolated that we need to make our own TV shows, there are a lot of expressions that refer back to the good old days (Tire-toi un bûche!). Even in some of older citizens, they'll say "M'aller" instead of "Je vais."

Also, "Yes, no, toaster," seems to be universal in Quebec. I don't think that is something you would need to express in France.


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## Spira

*Oui, non, grille-pain. *
What does this mean? 
*Also, "Yes, no, toaster," seems to be universal in Quebec. I don't think that is something you would need to express in France.* 
What does this sentence mean?


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## Salvatos

"Yes, no, toaster" is kind of a semi-idiom people use in Québec to show the extent of their English skills. For example :
"Parles-tu anglais ?"
"Je connais juste 'yes, no, toaster'."
Which is also kind of funny since most people actually say "toaster" instead of "grille-pain" in Québec, which goes to show how little of an achievement "yes, no, toaster" is.

Around here there's also this one that I like: "I spik Inglish par mottons" (_mottons_ being slang for "bits"... the kind of bits you'd find in expired milk, for instance).

I don't get Kikurukina's last sentence either, though...


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## Spira

I suppose he means that you don't *hear* it in France, rather than *need* it. Which is correct.

For my tuppence's worth (or should I say two cents?) it seems to me quite obvious that the French language originated in France, but that means little these days, for it is in French-speaking Canada (perhaps not just Quebec) that an organised resistance to keep French as traditional and unchanged as possible has been the most forceful. In France itself no truly meaningful resistance has ever won the day, despite a couple of Culture ministers trying to outlaw Englishisms.
Which makes Canada a really curious place linguistically, for their French is old-fashioned to French ears, while their English is so Americanised as to seem much more modern and US-friendly than English spoken in the UK.


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## Istriano

I don't like Quebec French, I prefer Acadian French (NB).
New Brunswick was populated with people from Eastern France, while
Quebec had more people coming from the Northwest (Normandy, Bretagne), that's why they sound completely different. Acadian sounds very pleasant. 
I adore Natasha St-Pier


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## uchi.m

Frenchs in Québec are more friendly.
Not always so when back home in France.


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## gpuri

Bonjour,

I am due to visit Paris, Orleans, Quebec City et Montreal.

I am studying beginners French with the basic greetings and common verbs like etre and avoir.

I want to know if this would be mostly the same between Canada and France? Are there any common greetings or terms for getting around that would be different?
I am using some websites which provide common terms and phrases for tourists in France e.g. how to buy a train ticket etc. Would this be the same language in Quebec?


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## Salvatos

I think greetings would be largely the same. In any case, if you use standard French rather than either country's colloquial/slang, you should be understood in all of these places even if some expressions you use sound less local. Have a nice trip


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## SãoEnrique

I like the Canadian accent, futhermore they speak with the nose.


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## SãoEnrique

scandalously in love said:


> well, I'm not a native speaker, but I'll give you my attempt at a broad generalization...
> 
> It would be quite like N. American and British English.
> 
> 1.  Pronunciation is different; accents are different.
> 
> 2.  Words have different meanings.  First example that comes to mind is the adjective _plein(e)_.  In Québec, when a person says it, it can mean they are full of food, whereas in France, it means they are pregnant!
> 
> 3.  Expressions are different.  You have Québec idioms that mean not very much to a Parisien french speaker, and vice versa.  (can't think of any...)
> 
> So that's just a warmer-up post  Stick around until a speaker wise and native (hehe) answers your question.



_Plein(e) _is equal at _enceinte?_ I never heard it...


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## JamesM

I have a friend who was an exchange student in France back in the 1970s.  She said "Ouf! Je suis pleine" at the dinner table and provoked embarrassed laughter.  I don't know if it's still current, but at that time "Je suis pleine" definitely meant "I'm knocked up/pregnant".  It was a vulgar expression.


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## SãoEnrique

If your friend had finished to eat and  she said "Je suis pleine", for us it doesn't sound odd, if we stay in this context of course. If it's another context for us in france it's sound like a vulgar expression like you. For this we don't have many difference


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## JamesM

Well, she patted her stomach as she said it, which is a common gesture in the U.S.  Perhaps it was the combination of the words and the gesture.


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## SãoEnrique

JamesM said:


> Well, she patted her stomach as she said it, which is a common gesture in the U.S.  Perhaps it was the combination of the words and the gesture.



Of course


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## vsop44

JamesM said:


> Well, she patted her stomach as she said it, which is a common gesture in the U.S. Perhaps it was the combination of the words and the gesture.



Je me rappelle que grandissant dans le Maine-Anjou après la guerre (2eme), dans les fermes les jeunes hommes appelaient les jeunes filles/femmes "femelles" (prononcé fumelle) et comme le bétail elle pouvaient aussi etre pleines (enceintes) 

Au Québec le mot pour toast éait "rotie" dans les années 60/70...


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## Pedro y La Torre

gpuri said:


> .
> 
> I want to know if this would be mostly the same between Canada and France? Are there any common greetings or terms for getting around that would be different?
> I am using some websites which provide common terms and phrases for tourists in France e.g. how to buy a train ticket etc. Would this be the same language in Quebec?



Greetings are the same; you will hear many Quebeckers say ''bon matin'', though this is officially frowned upon. You'll have no problem buying a train ticket, the words used are precisely the same (no ''round-trip'' (AE)/return (BE), for example, to be concerned about; Quebec has no TGVs either). 

The accent, however, is utterly different. Quebeckers also tag ''là'' (pronounced approximately as ''loh'') on to a huge proportion of sentences they use in daily speech. 

''Vous allez où là ?'' etc.

Expect to hear (but don't try to imitate) curse words derived from the Catholic Church: ''tabarnak'' (tabarnacle), ''câlisse'' (calice), ''ostie'' (hostie), ''ciboire'' etc., which are not found in France (Quebec curses sound better ).

In very colloquial speech you will also hear ''tu'' repeated, despite it serving no signifying function, ''Il vient-tu ou pas'' ?


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## rolmich

I sometimes enjoy the canadian TV series _Fortier_. Without the sub-titles (in french), I would understand half of the dialogue!
Some examples :
passes-moi ton gun (arme/revolver)
Tu fais partie de l'escouade ? (equipe)
Tu changes de job ? (emploi).... and many others.
*Istriano*, do you have a link for me where I could hear the Acadian accent?
Thanks in advance


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## Pedro y La Torre

rolmich said:


> I sometimes enjoy the canadian TV series _Fortier_. Without the sub-titles (in french), I would understand half of the dialogue!
> Some examples :
> passes-moi ton gun (arme/revolver)
> Tu fais partie de l'escouade ? (equipe)
> Tu changes de job ? (emploi).... and many others.
> *Istriano*, do you have a link for me where I could hear the Acadian accent?
> Thanks in advance



Ah now, really? I find it rather offensive that TV5Monde subtitles it to be honest (they seem to do the same for all Quebec shows), the words may be different but if a foreigner like me can understand the dialogue without a problem, a native French speaker should too.

I know that I'd be fairly cheesed off if Americans started subtitling Irish films.


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## merquiades

rolmich said:


> I sometimes enjoy the canadian TV series _Fortier_. Without the sub-titles (in french), I would understand half of the dialogue!
> Some examples :
> passes-moi ton gun (arme/revolver)
> Tu fais partie de l'escouade ? (equipe)
> Tu changes de job ? (emploi).... and many others.
> *Istriano*, do you have a link for me where I could hear the Acadian accent?
> Thanks in advance



I think you have to know American English to understand Quebecois French.  If so, all of those sentences and many others make complete sense.  I don't mind the subtitles.  They're helpful enough.


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## rolmich

merquiades said:


> I think you have to know American English to understand Quebecois French. If so, all of those sentences and many others make complete sense. I don't mind the subtitles. They're helpful enough.


"escouade" (equipe or bande in France) does not come from AE so as many other terms which are not any more in use in France. Obviously, in a popular TV serie like Fortier many words are literally adopted from AE.


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## merquiades

rolmich said:


> "escouade" (equipe or bande in France) does not come from AE so as many other terms which are not any more in use in France. Obviously, in a popular TV serie like Fortier many words are literally adopted from AE.



Sorry, I thought it probably came from "squad", "squadron".


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## Pedro y La Torre

Escouade, in the context of Fortier, refers to une escouade policière, which I presume is a term also used in France.


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## wildan1

Pedro y La Torre said:


> In very colloquial speech you will also hear ''tu'' repeated, despite it serving no signifying function, ''Il vient-tu ou pas'' ?


_-tu _after a verb is an interrogative particle used in conversational French in Canada, equivalent to _est-ce que_ at the beginning of an interrogative sentence:
_
Il vient-tu? = Est-ce qu'il vient? ; Vient-il?
_
Its origins are from regional dialects of French in France (_-t'y, -ti)._ 

See further explanations here.


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## L'irlandais

rolmich said:


> "escouade" (equipe or bande in France) does not come from AE so as many other terms which are not any more in use in France. Obviously, in a popular TV serie like Fortier many words are literally adopted from AE.


I agree with Rolmich,


Pedro y La Torre said:


> Escouade, in the context of Fortier, refers to une escouade policière, which I presume is a term also used in France.


It's wrong to assume, Pedro.   For me escouade is a military term, meaning Squad.  Yes, I know back in Ireland we speak of "squad cars" when talking about the police.
However in France, I think it's more une patrouille policière here in France.
or even un peloton de gendarmerie (exemples) when speaking of the rural police force. (literally "Men in arms")


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## Pedro y La Torre

Howya l'irlandais,

I see now that the term is indeed absent from Franco-French sites; I had gotten so used to it in Montreal that I presumed it was everywhere! I wonder does the Gendarmerie use it, given that it is an arm of the military?


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## L'irlandais

Well, peloton is definitely the term used by the media over here.  It's a company section, commanded by a lieutenant.
All on-line references (I've found) to escouade in this sense are Canadian.  But perhaps in french police jargon they also use escouade for special units.


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## rolmich

In France, the term "brigade" is also used as in _brigade des moeurs _(vice squad) which deals with prostitution and pedophilia


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## Nanon

Pedro y La Torre said:


> Escouade, in the context of Fortier, refers to une escouade policière, which I presume is a term also used in France.


Was, maybe.
Mes deux cennes (a more-than-direct translation, not used in France, but it makes me smile ).


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## RIAADVD

J'ai écouté que les Québécois, voient l'accent de Paris un peu “Snob” C'est vrai?

I've heard that "les Québécois", see the accent from Paris a little bit "Snob" Is it true?


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## Salvatos

It is. In comparison, Quebeckers would sound like rednecks to French people.


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## Phenyx13

As a native, accent from Quebec sounds so American (speaking with the nose). I sometimes need subtitles to understand everything 
Quebeckers are a real contradiction : they blame french (from France) for using some english word in everyday life :
- week-end (saturday+sunday) > Quebeckers say "fin de semaine"
- roller (wheels under shoes)...) > Quebeckers say "patin à roues alignées"

But they have no problem with : je vais "checker" mes bagages à l'aéroport (I'm going to check my luggage at the airport) ou j'ai trouvé un nouveau job (I found a new job), passe moi le gun (give me the gun)


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## Pedro y La Torre

Phenyx13 said:


> As a native, accent from Quebec sounds so American (speaking with the nose). I sometimes need subtitles to understand everything
> Quebeckers are a real contradiction : they blame french (from France) for using some english word in everyday life :
> - week-end (saturday+sunday) > Quebeckers say "fin de semaine"
> - roller (wheels under shoes)...) > Quebeckers say "patin à roues alignées"
> 
> But they have no problem with : je vais "checker" mes bagages à l'aéroport (I'm going to check my luggage at the airport) ou j'ai trouvé un nouveau job (I found a new job), passe moi le gun (give me the gun)



C'est _une_ job au Québec. 

I don't think that québécois sounds particularly American (if you go to remote regions of la Vendée you'll still hear québécois sounding accents), but it definitely sounds strange to those who only know European French.

The difference between anglicisms in Quebec and France is that in Quebec anglicisms tend to have penetrated verbal forms in spoken language, which is not yet the case in France. That being said, France is being absolutely overrun by English words at present (more so than Quebec, at least when I lived there in 2011-2012).


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## Salvatos

Pedro y La Torre said:


> The difference between anglicisms in Quebec and France is that in Quebec anglicisms tend to have penetrated verbal forms in spoken language, which is not yet the case in France. That being said, France is being absolutely overrun by English words at present (more so than Quebec, at least when I lived there in 2011-2012).


I think that's an accurate way to describe the distinction between the two as far as borrowing from English goes. Quebec's dialect, in many cases, thoroughly appropriates English words and adapts them to French constructs. In my limited experience, European French seems to borrow mostly nouns and leave them unchanged, and notably also use them in formal language, which is never the case in Quebec. Here, it seems to me, most English borrowings entered the dialect a century or more ago and were relegated to colloquialisms; in Europe, these adoptions seem to be in full swing and used in almost all registers.

I find it interesting to see how they're moving in opposite directions in that regard, and ironic that one reason I can't translate into European French is that I wouldn't know which English words to use and when.


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## Mishe

An interesting difference are also names of the meals. There is no "petit déjeuner" in Canada (breakfast is simply déjeuner), lunch is "dîner" in Canada and "déjeuner" in France, whereas dinner is "souper" in Canada and "dîner" in France.


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## snarkhunter

Mishe said:


> dinner is "souper" in Canada and "dîner" in France.


... Not everywhere!
If you are in a countryside location, and not even specifically among elders, you will still hear dinner being referred to as "souper".

It basically depends on _where/who_.


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## JamesM

snarkhunter said:


> ... Not everywhere!
> If you are in a countryside location, and not even specifically among elders, you will still hear dinner being referred to as "souper".
> 
> It basically depends on _where/who_.



This is interesting. My mother came from West Virginia and for her the three meals were breakfast, dinner and supper.


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## Mishe

snarkhunter said:


> ... Not everywhere!
> If you are in a countryside location, and not even specifically among elders, you will still hear dinner being referred to as "souper".
> 
> It basically depends on _where/who_.



Ok, but that's rather dialectal, isn't it? I researched it a little bit and it seems there was a switch in the meal names in France somewhere between the 17th and the 19th cenuturies, which did not occur in some other francophone areas.

Standard usage in France nowadays is petit déjeuner, déjeuner and dîner, while in some other francophone countries (Quebec and Belgium come to mind) the standard is  déjeuner, dîner, souper - which shows that déjeuner was originally meant as the first meal of the day (it literally means break - fast, as in English).


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## snarkhunter

Mishe said:


> Ok, but that's rather dialectal, isn't it?


... Dialectal it is indeed!
But still very common use. It just depends on where you are, and what people you are with.

One may just refer to theoretical language, but actual language, even if only "local", remains a fact.
And it's unlikely things will change anytime soon since I could witness such habits being passed on to "the next generation".


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## Dymn

In Catalan it's _esmorzar, dinar _and _sopar_. And in Occitan, if my translator is right, _dejunar_, _dinnar _and _sopar_. This replacement must have been a Parisian thing that then spread to English. I don't know what French countryside snarkhunter refers to. It would be interesting to know whether there are differences in this aspect between Northern and Southern France.

By the way, I just learned that _déjeuner/dejunar _and _dîner/dinar/dinnar _are cognates


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## Rodal

What about people from Guadalupe? Don’t they speak French too? And how do they sound to other French speaking people?


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## wildan1

Educated natives of Guadeloupe (and Martinique) have a distinctive accent (e.g., the sound R often sounds more like W), but speak European-style French with some localisms and influences from Creole, the blend of French and Indian languages that developed among enslaved people of those islands in the 17th - 18th Centuries, the slave era of these French colonies.


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## Youngfun

Isn't there also a big difference between Montréal and smaller cities? I'd guess Montréal French would be more anglicised in vocabulary? Phonologically it looks anglicised to me, with all those [æ].


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## JamesM

My limited experience with Montréal French vs. rural Quebecois is that the French in Montréal seems to be very standard, formal French compared to the outlying towns.  There seems to be a lot more slang in the rural French.


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## merquiades

Youngfun said:


> Isn't there also a big difference between Montréal and smaller cities? I'd guess Montréal French would be more anglicised in vocabulary? Phonologically it looks anglicised to me, with all those [æ].


Montreal and Québec City varieties have always been very different even from the start.  What [æ] are you referring to?


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## Youngfun

JamesM said:


> My limited experience with Montréal French vs. rural Quebecois is that the French in Montréal seems to be very standard, formal French compared to the outlying towns.  There seems to be a lot more slang in the rural French.


I thought Québec City's French was closer to standard French, but I'm probably wrong.



merquiades said:


> Montreal and Québec City varieties have always been very different even from the start.  What [æ] are you referring to?


A Montrealer (?) told me that his open e's are [æ], not [ɛ] like in France and in the rest of Québec. I wonder if that's an English influence or an intrinsic development?


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## Pedro y La Torre

JamesM said:


> My limited experience with Montréal French vs. rural Quebecois is that the French in Montréal seems to be very standard, formal French compared to the outlying towns.  There seems to be a lot more slang in the rural French.



I'm not sure where you were in Montreal but if you go to areas like Verdun, for example, I wouldn't call the French spoken on the street as "formal", a lot of "joual" is still present in everyday language.

In fact, the French spoken in Quebec City was more "formal" than that which I encountered in Montreal. But I never lived in Quebec City.


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## wildan1

My impression is that differences in accent and style across Québec cut across two dimensions: 1) social/educational background and 2) regional differences.

Not sure that such differences are any more unusual if compared to other countries like Italy, Germany, the UK, etc.


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## JamesM

Pedro y La Torre said:


> I'm not sure where you were in Montreal but if you go to areas like Verdun, for example, I wouldn't call the French spoken on the street as "formal", a lot of "joual" is still present in everyday language.
> 
> In fact, the French spoken in Quebec City was more "formal" than that which I encountered in Montreal. But I never lived in Quebec City.



I was working with someone in Montréal remotely, so I was only exposed to business French as spoken by a banker.  Her French seemed very standard and not heavily accented at all.

I have spoken with several people from Montréal and have not had a problem understanding them in French.  I've heard some tourists from outlying areas of Quebec and honestly didn't recognize the language until I listened to it for a while.  To me, that's a big difference.


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## Pedro y La Torre

JamesM said:


> I have spoken with several people from Montréal and have not had a problem understanding them in French.  I've heard some tourists from outlying areas of Quebec and honestly didn't recognize the language until I listened to it for a while.  To me, that's a big difference.



A farmer from Chicoutimi will certainly speak differently to a Montreal banker. That said, I don't think that dialectal variation is that terribly wide inside Quebec itself (though there is a clear demarcation between Quebec and Acadian French). And of course the difference between standard Quebec French and what is spoken on the street is enormous. When Quebeckers speak amongst themselves, particularly the less educated, it is sometimes impossible to understand what's going on.


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## JamesM

That must be what I heard from the tourists.  I honestly couldn't identify it at first.  It sounded like a mangled, growling Germanic offshoot until I started picking out familiar words.


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## merquiades

@Youngfun , if you mean by /ae/ the diphthong aè instead of è, it sounds so to me in this video... a speaker says "fraère" instead of "frère".


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## symposium

I'm Italian, and my French is just so-and-so, but I can immediately tell when someone speaking French is from Quebec or France: to me (is it just me?) quebecois sounds like a British or American person speaking French with a very strong English accent. The way the "oeur's" are pronounced, for example, or even just the cadence... It's very easy to spot.


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## Pedro y La Torre

symposium said:


> I'm Italian, and my French is just so-and-so, but I can immediately tell when someone speaking French is from Quebec or France: to me (is it just me?) quebecois sounds like a British or American person speaking French with a very strong English accent. The way the "oeur's" are pronounced, for example, or even just the cadence... It's very easy to spot.



No, it's not English at all. Almost all québécois sounds can be traced back to regional varieties of French French (albeit some are now extinct).


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## symposium

That's absolutely possible: all I'm saying is that to me Quebec French sounds like French spoken by someone who has a strong English accent. That's how it sounds to my foreigner's ears.


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## Pedro y La Torre

symposium said:


> That's absolutely possible: all I'm saying is that to me Quebec French sounds like French spoken by someone who has a strong English accent. That's how it sounds to my foreigner's ears.



Fair enough. But your impression is completely wrong.


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## L'irlandais

I agree with Pedro, Québécois french is very, very different from French spoken by somebody with an English accent.  It is a little like me saying Spanish, Portugues and Italian all some pretty similar to me.


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## atcheque

I can only agree with Pedro and l'Irlandais: Canadian French accent is different than British or American accent in French.


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## Olaszinhok

L'irlandais said:


> Portugues and Italian all some pretty similar to me.


Is European Portuguese similar to Italian or Spanish? Have you ever heard it? However, you are right, French Canadian does not have any English accent.
As for Continental Spanish, it sounds much more similar to Greek than Italian, let alone Portuguese.


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## symposium

Well, apparently no one shares my impression that Quebec French sounds like French spoken with an English accent, still, I retain that impression... I cannot help it... Up to this day, everytime I've heard someone speak French and they sounded like they were Americans (I mean, Americans whose mother tongue is English) speaking French, I always said: Oh, they're from Quebec! and they always turned out to be Canadians. It's so strong and obvious, especially the cadence and the way the R's are pronounced... No, I will never change my mind! Never!


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## Pedro y La Torre

Olaszinhok said:


> Is European Portuguese similar to Italian or Spanish? Have you ever heard it? However, you are right, French Canadian does not have any English accent.
> As for Continental Spanish, it sounds much more similar to Greek than Italian, let alone Portuguese.



You omitted the start of his sentence, "_It is a little like me saying_...". He doesn't believe that but it's akin to his saying that they sound the same (i.e. they obviously don't).



symposium said:


> Well, apparently no one shares my impression that Quebec French sounds like French spoken with an English accent, still, I retain that impression... I cannot help it... Up to this day, everytime I've heard someone speak French and they sounded like they were Americans (I mean, Americans whose mother tongue is English) speaking French, I always said: Oh, they're from Quebec! and they always turned out to be Canadians. It's so strong and obvious, especially the cadence and the way the R's are pronounced... No, I will never change my mind! Never!



I'm rather mystified by your impression. They sound nothing alike. The québécois accent in French is distinctive and has nothing to do with English. The québécois do tend to pronounce English words as in North American English (unlike the French) but apart from this, there's no link whatever.


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## Oddmania

symposium said:


> Well, apparently no one shares my impression that Quebec French sounds like French spoken with an English *American* accent


I actually see where you're coming from. It's not 100% accurate but it's not exactly off the wall. I only get that impression from a couple of sounds, though: _R_, -_eu_, and _i_, basically.

From Wikipedia:


> Le R est traditionnellement roulé [r] dans l'ouest du Québec et grasseyé [ʀ] dans l'est (quoique de nos jours, le r parisien [ʁ] domine partout).





> Les voyelles /i/, /y/ et /u/ subissent la règle de relâchement (*ɪ*, ʏ, *ʊ*) en syllabe fermée sauf devant les consonnes /ʒ/, /ʁ/, /v/ et /z/, mais la voyelle /y/ est relâchée devant la consonne /ʁ/ (« mur » se prononce [mʏːʁ]): *« Six » se prononce [sɪs]*, « lune » se prononce [lʏn] et *« route » se prononce [ʁʊt]*.


The short [ɪ] and [ʊ] are not used in European French and sound very English (or Germanic) to us. I've also heard French Canadian speakers pronounce the word _feu _in a way that sounded exactly like the beginning of the word _*fir*st_ in American English (and describe _my _European version of the vowel as very "_pointue_").

Also, what probably makes you think of English when you hear a Québécois accent might be all the diphtongs (which are non-existent in European French). A lot of vowels get diphtongized in Quebec French.


> Les voyelles longues (marquées /ː/ phonologiquement) sont diphtonguées en syllabe finale fermée, c'est considéré comme non-standard, sauf, phonologiquement, quand l'allongement n'est pas intrinsèque mais dû à l'action d'une consonne allongeante ou quand la voyelle allongée est [a] et, sociolinguistiquement, dans les contextes où la variété utilisée est acrolectale: « pâte » /pɑːt/→*[pɑʊ̯t]*, « fête » /fɛːt/→*[fæɪ̯t] ~ [faɪ̯t]*, « autre » /oːtʁ/→*[oʊ̯tʁ]*, « cinq » /sɛ̃ːk/→*[sãɪ̯̃k]*, « onze » /ɔ̃ːz/→*[ɒ̃ʊ̯̃z]*, « gaz » /ɡɑːz/→*[ɡɑʊ̯z]*, « neutre » /nøːtʁ/→*[nøy̯tʁ̥]*, « cœur » /kœːʁ/→*[kaœ̯ʁ]*, « or » /ɔːʁ/→[ɑɔ̯ʁ], « rive » /ʁiːv/→*[ʁɪ̯i̯v]*, « douze » /duːz/→*[dʊu̯z]*, « amuse » /amyːz/→*[amʏy̯z]*.


Once again, diphtongs are very alien to us so we typically associate them with the English language. But that's basically it. I wouldn't ever mistake a native French Canadian speaker for an American speaker, but I wouldn't be too surprised if an Italian or a Spanish speaker did. If you don't speak French fluently, you can't be au fait with all the existing accents and varieties of French, so it's hardly surprising you try to make connections with other accents you're familiar with.

It actually makes sense that Quebec French shares some phonological features with North American English. It enables Canadian speakers to switch between the two languages smoothly. I don't have any difficulty pronouncing English names correctly in an English conversation, but it gets _super _difficult in a French conversation without making a pause, because the English phonology (especially syllable stress) clashes with my European French phonology. The two systems don't sit well together. Likewise, whenever I use a French word or phrase in English, I tend to pronounce it with a slight English accent, because I can't go back and forth between the two languages that easily. French Canadian speakers don't seem to have that problem.


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## Pedro y La Torre

Oddmania said:


> French Canadian speakers don't seem to have that problem.



French speakers in the Greater Montreal Area usually don't. Someone from Gaspésie, though, usually won't pronounce English words or names in the "North American" manner.


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## symposium

Ok, it's just my personal opinion and it's not relevant to anything, but just to let everyone understand what I mean, sort of, and just to let everyone have a laugh, I'll link you a video of a French girl from France speaking French with a mock English accent. Basically, it's someone speaking French with an English accent. That is what Quebec French sounds like to me, on a general level. Hope you enjoy it!


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## merquiades

Nooo...  That has nothing to do with the Quebec accent.  She is exaggerating everything she thinks an American accent would be.  First of all, the r is never pronounced like an English r in Quebec.  Traditionally in some regions like Montreal it was rolled, but in other areas it was guttural.  Nowdays, guttural has an upperhand everywhere.  Then she stresses the first syllable of every word even more than an American word, and the rhythm is not smooth.
You tell a Quebec accent by the vowel sounds that are different, in particular the nasal sounds which are not the same as in France.  They also close some vowels that are open in Europe, like _pére _and _môde_. The t is also more like /ts/, so they say "la natsion". Edit,  better  tsu for tu, tsirer for tirer


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## Dymn

merquiades said:


> The t is also more like /ts/, so they say "la natsion".


I think you're mixing it up with Italian 

_T _in _nation _may well be a spelled t but phonologically it's an /s/ for all intents and purposes. The feature you're trying to describe is that /t/ and /d/ become /ts/ and /dz/ respectively before a front vowel.


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## Pedro y La Torre

That video doesn't sound québécois at all. Really. Perhaps you are hard of hearing.


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## merquiades

Dymn said:


> I think you're mixing it up with Italian
> 
> _T _in _nation _may well be a spelled t but phonologically it's an /s/ for all intents and purposes. The feature you're trying to describe is that /t/ and /d/ become /ts/ and /dz/ respectively before a front vowel.


Right, I should have given a better example.  Actually any word with a t.   Mon petsit, tsu es tsimde.  

This video is quick but the lady gives good info about speaking Canadian style.

This Québécoise always has a strong accent.


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## Dymn

merquiades said:


> Mon petsit, tsu est tsimde.


I think front vowels is not the accurate terminology but it's not all t's either. Wikipedia says it's before /i/, /j/, /y/ and /ɥ/ which explains your examples.


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## Salvatos

merquiades said:


> You tell a Quebec accent by the vowel sounds that are different, in particular the nasal sounds which are not the same as in France.  They also close some vowels that are open in Europe, like _pére _and _môde_.


I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at with that last example. I know we pronounce _père_ differently (though for most people I would say _pêre_, not _pére_, but I've definitely heard both!  ), but _môde_ doesn't sound like anything to me.


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## Oddmania

I associate the _"pére, mére"_ pronunciation pimarily with the North-East of France, and Belgium. It isn't something that strikes me as particularly French Canadian either.

If more people are interested in the subject, I find this video very informative:


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## wildan1

symposium said:
			
		

> That is what Quebec French sounds like to me, on a general level.


I have to agree with others here, this sounds nothing like French as it is spoken by francophone Quebeckers. It's actually not even a very good imitation of an American speaking French with a thick American accent.

Oddmania's video, on the other hand, seems a good introduction to some common conversational _Québécismes._


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## Doraemon-

There are differences like in any language. For me the biggest one is that I understand perfectly French from France but I usually don't understand a single word of French from Quebec if I don't put a lot of attention to it.  But here again, I think that this happens in every language between its dialects (you get used to what you hear), although it's true that Quebecois is not famous for having a very clear pronounciation.


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## Pedro y La Torre

It depends what kind. The French spoken on Radio-Canada is as clear as anything heard in France. The problem is that learners are hardly ever exposed to Canadian French. I studied French from secondary school up to and including university and I wasn't exposed to Quebec French at all. Classes concentrated solely on France and a small bit on Belgium and Switzerland.


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## L'irlandais

Native German speakers working in Basel, often tell me they don’t understand a word of Swiss German.  With my B2 level of German, after 3 years working in Basel I could grasp a bit of the local dialect.  Enough to say hello, see ya tomorrow and enjoy your meal.  That and follow a little the chat at the coffee machine.  I think you put your finger on the cause.  Those who make zero effort to try and understand a vastly similar language to their own mother tongue, will NOT understand.
It’s not really a linguistic problem.
Just the other day a shop assistant complimented me on my French (after 19 years in this country my pronunciation is still poor to middling.) He said compared to the Québécois, he had little trouble understanding me.  In Québec, he had to resort to asking them to speak in English, as he couldn’t understand a word. I feel sure there must be a psychological explanation for this phenomenon.


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## Pedro y La Torre

L'irlandais said:


> In Québec, he had to resort to asking them to speak in English, as he couldn’t understand a word. I feel sure there must be a psychological explanation for this phenomenon.



I've heard this before too. It's insane. I arrived in Quebec with little or no knowledge of québécois and I understood fine. So the idea that a native French speaker can't get by is ridiculous. There must be a conscious effort to NOT understand.


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## L'irlandais

Or subconsciously blocked out.  I guess such folk are confused by the apparent similarities of words, when their meaning can sometimes be different.  After all Québécois have like their American neighbors kept a purer form ( late 16th and early 17th century version) of the language than us lot.

When listening to Swedish, I hear similarities to both German and some English words, but the meaning escapes me.  (Level leass than A1.1)


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