# it needs cleaning



## arbee21

Hola todos,
No sé como decir las siguientes frases de forma impersonal en español.

The kitchen needs cleaning
The car needs fixing
My hair needs cutting

Ya sé que se puede decir:-

Necesito limpiar la cocina.
Necesito arreglar el carro.
Debo cortarme el cabello.

Pero me preguntaba si hubiera otra manera de decirlas, tales como:

La cocina necesita ser limpiada.
El carro necesita ser arreglado.
Mi cabello necesita ser cortado.

Es que ahorita no se me ocurre otra manera de decirlas pero me imagino hay más opciones.

Gracias de antemano.


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## Todd The Bod

Que tal, se necesita?  Por ejemplo, se necesita limpiar la cocina, etc.


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## Pala Bras

Podría ser algo así como:

Hay que limpiar la cocina
Hay que arreglar el carro (coche)
Tengo que cortarme el pelo.

Espero que te sirva de ayuda... Un saludo!!!


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## arbee21

Ah claro Todd The Bod y Pala Bras. Ustedes tiene toda la razón,se puede usar 'se necesita' o 'hay que'. Me quedé en blanco cuando traté de pensar como expresarlas en español. Muchas gracias a los dos.


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## Alma de cántaro

Hay otra forma muy similar a otras lenguas romances:

Hace falta limpiar la cocina
Me hace falta un corte de pelo

etc...


Saludos


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## el_ochito

Yet another way, this one a little from left field. If you "personalize" the inanimate objects, you can imagine that they have "needs" and you can say:

La cocina necesita que la limpien

El carro necesita que lo arreglen

Mi pelo necesita que lo corten

This would not be the most common form though, and it certainly has a pretty different flavor from all the others.


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## Inquisit16

RE:  The kitchen needs cleaning -- 
The car needs fixing --
My hair needs cutting --

You are forgetting the "To Be" part:
The kitchen needs TO BE cleaned
The car needs TO BE fixed
My hair needs TO BE cut
Future perfect, I think


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## inib

Inquisit16 said:


> RE: The kitchen needs cleaning --
> The car needs fixing --
> My hair needs cutting --
> 
> You are forgetting the "To Be" part:
> The kitchen needs TO BE cleaned
> The car needs TO BE fixed
> My hair needs TO BE cut
> Future perfect, I think


_ The kitchen needs cleaning_ means the same as _The kitchen needs to be cleaned_, and the former is a correct and common structure in English. I can't figure out why you referred to the Future Perfect.


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## ribran

inib said:


> _ The kitchen needs cleaning_ means the same as _The kitchen needs to be cleaned_, and the former is a correct and common structure in English. I can't figure out why you referred to the Future Perfect.



I have found that "need + gerund" is generally more common in British English. I think some Americans have a slight aversion to it because it reminds them of the often criticized structure "need + past participle", which is normal in certain parts of the country, most notably Western Pennsylvania and parts of Eastern Ohio.


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## inib

ribran said:


> I have found that "need + gerund" is generally more common in British English. I think some Americans have a slight aversion to it because it reminds them of the often criticized structure "needs + past participle", which is normal in certain parts of the country, most notably Western Pennsylvania and parts of Eastern Ohio.


 Thanks for the info, Ribran. So you are saying that some people from those areas say "The kitchen needs cleaned"? If that's the case, I understand why Inquisit insisted on not forgetting the "to be" part. 
But I suppose we're going off topic, because the original question was about the Spanish. Nevertheless, I'm learning something new, so I hope no-one will mind.


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## ribran

inib said:


> Thanks for the info, Ribran. So you are saying that some people from those areas say "The kitchen needs cleaned"? If that's the case, I understand why Inquisit insisted on not forgetting the "to be" part.
> But I suppose we're going off topic, because the original question was about the Spanish. Nevertheless, I'm learning something new, so I hope no-one will mind.



Exactly.

_The kitchen needs cleaned.
The car needs washed.
My hair needs cut.

_ I believe this structure is fairly common in Scottish English.


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## Wandering JJ

ribran said:


> Exactly.
> 
> _The kitchen needs cleaned._
> _The car needs washed._
> _My hair needs cut._
> 
> I believe this structure is fairly common in Scottish English.


 
Fairly common would be an overstatement - some Scottish dialects use this structure, but certainly not normal, Even semi-educated speakers wouldn't use it! Apparently some dialects around Pennsylvania have the same construction.


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## bzu

Wandering JJ said:


> Fairly common would be an overstatement - some Scottish dialects use this structure, but certainly not normal, Even semi-educated speakers wouldn't use it! Apparently some dialects around Pennsylvania have the same construction.


I don't know about Scotland, but at least in northern England (or at least where I live) a sentence like "_My hair needs cut" _sounds (in my opinion) completely normal.


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## Lavernock

ribran said:


> Exactly.
> 
> _The kitchen needs cleaned.
> The car needs washed.
> My hair needs cut.
> 
> _ I believe this structure is fairly common in Scottish English.



I've never heard this structure in my life.


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## Irma2011

Si se quiere mantener el carácter nominal de 'cleaning, fixing o cutting', se podría traducir como: 
_La cocina necesita una limpieza_
_El coche necesita un arreglo_
_Mi pelo necesita un (buen) corte_

Sólo es otra posibilidad y puede que cada opción tenga un peculiar y ligerísimo matiz que la distingue de las otras. 

Un saludo a todos.


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## ribran

Wandering JJ said:


> Fairly common would be an overstatement - some Scottish dialects use this structure, but certainly not normal, Even semi-educated speakers wouldn't use it! Apparently some dialects around Pennsylvania have the same construction.



Thanks for this information, JJ.


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## Lavernock

bzu said:


> I don't know about Scotland, but at least in northern England (or at least where I live) a sentence like "_My hair needs cut" _sounds (in my opinion) completely normal.




Are you sure about that? It sounds completely wrong to me. I've never heard it and would never use it.


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## Lurrezko

Irma2011 said:


> Si se quiere mantener el carácter nominal de 'cleaning, fixing o cutting', se podría traducir como:
> _La cocina necesita una limpieza_
> _El coche necesita un arreglo_
> _Mi pelo necesita un (buen) corte_
> 
> Sólo es otra posibilidad y puede que cada opción tenga un peculiar y ligerísimo matiz que la distingue de las otras.
> 
> Un saludo a todos.



Así es como yo lo diría, cuestión de gustos.


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## Wandering JJ

Lavernock said:


> Are you sure about that? It sounds completely wrong to me. I've never heard it and would never use it.


 
Coincido contigo! I was brought up in Cheshire (fairly north...), went to university in Leeds (even more north...) my mother moved to the North Riding of Yorkshire (much further and you're in Scotland...) and I too *never* heard this usage. Weird


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## Lavernock

Wandering JJ said:


> Coincido contigo! I was brought up in Cheshire (fairly north...), went to university in Leeds (even more north...) my mother moved to the North Riding of Yorkshire (much further and you're in Scotland...) and I too *never* heard this usage. Weird




Thanks for your answer, I was really perplexed to hear that. I know I've been out of the UK for some time, but English can't have changed that much!


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## blasita

Alma de cántaro said:


> Hay otra forma muy similar a otras lenguas romances:
> 
> Hace falta limpiar la cocina
> Me hace falta un corte de pelo
> 
> etc...
> 
> 
> Saludos



A mí personalmente me parece muy natural, al igual que "Hay que limpiar la cocina" (aunque no puedo asegurar, ni mucho menos, que sea la mejor traducción literal). También diría  "La cocina necesita una limpieza" (pero bastante menos, y con una pequeña diferencia de matiz).

Un saludo.


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## roanheads

¿ Qué tal la construcción pronominal --- " la cocina necesita limpiarse "---the kitchen needs to be cleaned ?


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## inib

Wandering JJ said:


> Coincido contigo! I was brought up in Cheshire (fairly north...), went to university in Leeds (even more north...) my mother moved to the North Riding of Yorkshire (much further and you're in Scotland...) and I too *never* heard this usage. Weird


 Nor have I, (did I?) and that's probably because I'm not "northern" enough. I must admit I was surprised, but I don't doubt what has been said. I just wanted to say that any text book I use recommends something like "the kitchen needs cleaning", just as I would use it myself, and I don't consider it a "lazy" version of "The kitchen needs to be cleaned".


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## The Prof

bzu said:


> I don't know about Scotland, but at least in northern England (or at least where I live) a sentence like "_My hair needs cut" _sounds (in my opinion) completely normal.


 
I have only ever used that with an "a" in it: _My hair needs *a* cut. _

And similarly, _the kitchen needs a clean_, _the car needs a wash and the dog needs a walk!_


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## inib

Irma2011 said:


> Si se quiere mantener el carácter nominal de 'cleaning, fixing o cutting', se podría traducir como:
> _La cocina necesita una limpieza_
> _El coche necesita un arreglo_
> _Mi pelo necesita un (buen) corte_
> 
> Sólo es otra posibilidad y puede que cada opción tenga un peculiar y ligerísimo matiz que la distingue de las otras.
> 
> Un saludo a todos.


 Irma, no quiero quitarte la razón, porque al final el mensaje es el mismo, pero cuando yo digo "The kitchen needs cleaning", realmente estoy pensando que la cocina necesita (¡o más bien yo necesito!) que alguien limpie la cocina. Estoy pensando en algo muy activo, que se diferencia de la idea impersonal de que "la cocina necesita una limpieza" = the kitchen needs a going over.


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## inib

The Prof said:


> I have only ever used that with an "a" in it: _My hair needs *a* cut. _
> 
> And similarly, _the kitchen needs a clean_, _the car needs a wash and the dog needs a walk!_


 I agree, and I would say the same as you and have *never* heard any different. But neither have I any reason to doubt what others have said. The reason I added my previous comment was only so that anyone interested could weigh up the proportion of people who say it one way or another. (Pretty futile ambition, I guess...they seem to just count Google hits!)


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## Irma2011

inib said:


> Irma, no quiero quitarte la razón, porque al final el mensaje es el mismo, pero cuando yo digo "The kitchen needs cleaning", realmente estoy pensando que la cocina necesita (¡o más bien yo necesito!) que alguien limpie la cocina. Estoy pensando en algo muy activo, que se diferencia de la idea impersonal de que "la cocina necesita una limpieza" = the kitchen needs a going over.


Gracias por ese _'going over'_, inib, ya no lo usaba (demasiados años fuera de Inglaterra). De todos modos, arbee pedía distintas maneras de traducir estas frases _(<<Ya sé que se puede decir: Necesito limpiar la cocina. Necesito arreglar el carro. Debo cortarme el cabello>>). _Y le hemos dado alternativas. Dije en mi mensaje que yo simplemente sugería una posibilidad más, que añadiría, seguro, su propio matiz. Pero, la verdad, es un matiz que me sigue pareciendo bastante bien. Yo con frecuencia digo _"necesito un corte de pelo/mi pelo necesita un buen corte"_. Ahora mismo, sin ir más lejos, que tengo unas buenas greñas.


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## Lurrezko

inib said:


> Irma, no quiero quitarte la razón, porque al final el mensaje es el mismo, pero cuando yo digo "The kitchen needs cleaning", realmente estoy pensando que la cocina necesita (¡o más bien yo necesito!) que alguien limpie la cocina. Estoy pensando en algo muy activo, que se diferencia de la idea impersonal de que "la cocina necesita una limpieza" = the kitchen needs a going over.



Esto es lo bueno de estos foros: oír a nativos hablando de un matiz o una imagen mental que ellos perciben con naturalidad, pero que a los demás a menudo se nos escapa, por desgracia.


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## ribran

inib said:


> Irma, no quiero quitarte la razón, porque al final el mensaje es el mismo, pero cuando yo digo "The kitchen needs cleaning", realmente estoy pensando que la cocina necesita (¡o más bien yo necesito!) que alguien limpie la cocina. Estoy pensando en algo muy activo, que se diferencia de la idea impersonal de que "la cocina necesita una limpieza" = the kitchen needs a going over.



Yes, the image I get from "the kitchen needs cleaning" is one of a person on his knees, wearing an apron, blowing all the hair out of his face, with a sponge in one hand and a spray bottle of cleaning solution in the other, ready to pounce on any speck of dirt he sees.


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## Irma2011

ribran said:


> Yes, the image I get from "the kitchen needs cleaning" is one of a person on his knees, wearing an apron, blowing all the hair out of his face, with a sponge in one hand and a spray bottle of cleaning solution in the other, ready to pounce on any speck of dirt he sees.


¡No, por favor, no puedo despertarme con esta imagen!, because MY KITCHEN certainly NEEDS CLEANING, and I just haven't got the strength.....


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## bzu

Lavernock said:


> Are you sure about that? It sounds completely wrong to me. I've never heard it and would never use it.


Yeah, I'm sure. Despite what the other posters have said, to me there is nothing strange-sounding about that construction, and I'm sure I've heard it many times where I live, even if it's not exactly the best example of correct English usage.


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## Wandering JJ

bzu said:


> Yeah, I'm sure. Despite what the other posters have said, to me there is nothing strange-sounding about that construction, and I'm sure I've heard it many times where I live, even if it's not exactly the best example of correct English usage.


 
Hi bzu,

I have no doubt that you have heard the construction discussed - "my hair needs cut" - I am simply surprised that I have never been aware of it, in spite of having spent quite a few years in the north of the country. Perhaps I've been mixing with the wrong people.


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## bzu

Perhaps, but if you spent a while slumming it with us plebs I'm sure you'd hear it sooner or later .


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## The Prof

bzu said:


> Yeah, I'm sure. Despite what the other posters have said, to me there is nothing strange-sounding about that construction, and I'm sure I've heard it many times where I live, even if it's not exactly the best example of correct English usage.


 
If I heard you say "my hair needs cut", I doubt if it would sound strange to me either: having repeated the phrase over and over again, both with and without the 'a', I have come to the conclusion that the two sound almost exactly the same - as the mouth goes from the 's' of the word "needs" into the 'c' of "cut", there is a distortion that sounds just like an 'a' to me! 
Of course, this leads me to suspect that somewhere along the line, someone (a comer-in, maybe! ) has mistakenly thought that there is no 'a' there, and as this expression is always spoken rather than written (now being an exception to the rule), how would they know otherwise?

That's one possible explanation, anyway, but based purely on my humble, error-prone logic.


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## weeshus

Oh dear, here we go again  

Perfectly ok grammar = "my hair needs cutting" but it does predicate that the inanimate object "hair" has needs. "My hair needs to be cut" suffers from the same problem. Used frequently and accepted by all.

Better from a formal grammatical point of view I think is "I need to have my hair cut" or "I should have my hair cut".

BUT my "hair needs cut" and similar constructions are wrong - grammatically and from the standpoint of normal usage. As theprof quite rightly says "inserting the indefinite article makes it correct"

ok I am being pedantic in paragraphs 1 & 2 - but sentences such as "the kitchen needs clean" are just awful, jarring and simply wrong

regards

weeshus


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## ribran

weeshus said:


> ok I am being pedantic in paragraphs 1 & 2 - but sentences such as "the kitchen needs clean" are just awful, jarring and simply wrong
> 
> regards
> 
> weeshus



It is the past participle that is used in certain regions, so the sentence would be, "The kitchen needs cleaned." It is still non-standard, but I just wanted to point that out.


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## Inquisit16

Welcome to the world of American English -- ribran you nailed me -- I'm originally from Pittsburgh (Western Pennsylvania) and was corrected early in my employment for my lack of the infinitive -- Arbee21's original phrases The kitchen needs cleaning
The car needs fixing; My hair needs cutting -- sound like slang to me, but it appears, from this forum, that it is expressed perfectly correctly in some areas in which English is spoken.  (My Spanish would make a weed wilt)


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## weeshus

ribran said:


> It is the past participle that is used in certain regions, so the sentence would be, "The kitchen needs cleaned." It is still non-standard, but I just wanted to point that out.



For me that is even worse!! No, No, a thousand times no! 

Yes ok to "the kitchen needs to be cleaned" / "has the kitchen been cleaned?" / "is the kitchen going to be cleaned?"

BUT NEVER "the kitchen needs cleaned," "the kitchen needs painted," from the grammatical standpoint (and we are in a Grammar Forum) it is just wrong.

regards
weeshus


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## ribran

Inquisit16 said:


> Welcome to the world of American English -- ribran you nailed me -- I'm originally from Pittsburgh (Western Pennsylvania) and was corrected early in my employment for my lack of the infinitive -- Arbee21's original phrases The kitchen needs cleaning
> The car needs fixing; My hair needs cutting -- sound like slang to me, but it appears, from this forum, that it is expressed perfectly correctly in some areas in which English is spoken.  (My Spanish would make a weed wilt)



Hi Inquisit16,

 100 points for me! 

I have family in Pittsburgh, so I am fairly familiar with the construction.

I believe "need + present participle (taking, cutting, biting)" is accepted throughout the English-speaking world; "need + past participle (taken, cut, bitten)" is the problem.


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## weeshus

ribran said:


> I believe "need + present participle (taking, cutting, biting)" is accepted throughout the English-speaking world; "need + past participle (taken, cut, bitten)" is the problem.



The following verbs may be followed by either the *gerund* or the  *passive infinitive *without a change in meaning. _"need + participle (present or past)" does not enter into the equation I do not think_.

_Needs/Requires/Wants _are the specific verbs which are followed by the gerund or the passive infinitive.

In the examples we were given "the kitchen needs cleaning", "the car needs washing", "my hair needs cutting" the verb _needs_ is followed by the *gerund* cleaning/washing/cutting  

The verb needs can also be followed by the passive infinitive without any change in meaning, (although the gerund is more usual).

Using the passive infinitive in our given examples results in:

 The kitchen needs *to be cleaned* / The car needs *to be washed */ My hair needs *to be cut* 

Source: Oxford Library of English Usage _Grammar_

regards
weeshus


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## inib

weeshus said:


> The following verbs may be followed by either the *gerund* or the *passive infinitive *without a change in meaning. _"need + participle (present or past)" does not enter into the equation I do not think_.
> 
> _Needs/Requires/Wants _are the specific verbs which are followed by the gerund or the passive infinitive.
> 
> In the examples we were given "the kitchen needs cleaning", "the car needs washing", "my hair needs cutting" the verb _needs_ is followed by the *gerund* cleaning/washing/cutting
> 
> The verb needs can also be followed by the passive infinitive without any change in meaning, (although the gerund is more usual).
> 
> Using the passive infinitive in our given examples results in:
> 
> The kitchen needs *to be cleaned* / The car needs *to be washed */ My hair needs *to be cut*
> 
> Source: Oxford Library of English Usage _Grammar_
> 
> regards
> weeshus


Weehus, we all agreed on this a long time ago, but some people say it differently, and that was an eye-opener for me. At first, I thought it was a mistake, but now I think enough people have confirmed it to be credible. I'm not saying I consider it "correct" or even "standard", but it obviously exists.
Regards


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