# Spritus fortis R



## shannenms

I have no idea how Spritus Asper R is pronounced. Please help me.
Sorry I can't write in Greek script.
Thanks.


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## anthodocheio

It seems Latin to me...


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## shannenms

I could write in Greek script, so I use Latin to imply it.
Suppose I want to pronounce _reo_ in ancient Greek, what should I say?
Thanks


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## anthodocheio

shannenms said:


> I could write in Greek script, so I use Latin to imply it.
> Suppose I want to pronounce _reo_ in ancient Greek, what should I say?
> Thanks


Sorry.. I can't understand you...
What's the question? About the greek verb "reo"?

"Spirtus fortis" is not greek. It must be latin, meaning "strong/powerful spirit", I presume..


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## shannenms

I meant something like this: ἦν
i.e: Rough Breathing
Thanks.


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## anthodocheio

Oops! Sorry! (And in the mean time I notised that you know Latin...)

As I don't know exactly I'll try to do my best..
This -> ~ Is called "περισπωμένη"
This -> ´ Is called "οξεία" and the other way "βαρεία"
Those three are "τόνοι". (singular: "ο τόνος")

Here: ἦν  Under the ~ is called "δασεία" and the other way is "ψιλή", and those two are "πνεύματα" (singular: "το πνεύμα").

Is this what you were asking for?


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## shannenms

I haven't seen such names in my Greek grammar book!!!
However, ἦν is pronounced as *hen, *which I know. But what happens when this Spritus Asper is placed on the r?
Thanks.


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## anthodocheio

OK, you are propably asking about ῥ ("δασυνόμενο ρο" I think).

You should better wait for the experts. I'm definately not one of them.

All the best,


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## shannenms

Thank you very much.


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## Probo

Γεια σου: I pronounce  it like spanish _pe*rr*o _(not _pe*r*o_). But, as you know, the pronounciation of the ancient greek that we use in Europe  was created by Erasmus, so we dont know in fact how Socrates pronounced. (My english is horrible, I'm sorry).


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## Tetina

I don't agree with Probo. 
Actually, I think that 'r' s was not a heavy consonant but had a slight "h" pronunciation. 
See also : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_phonology#Liquids


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## Probo

Hello Tetina and others: In fact, it's not easy to know the pronounciation of the ancient greek, because we never eared anyone speaking it . I studied in Lejeune's  _Phonétique Historique du Mycénien et du Grec Ancien _about ῥ and I didn't find anything similar to the wikipedia. But if a greek native talk about greek language, I just stop talking. (Sorry  once again for my english)


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## Probo

Hello again: I'm listening to a brazilian singer called Socorro Lira (she is from north-east Brazil) and she pronounce the word *rede *more or less so: [Hréde]. Perheaps the ῥ was anything similar .


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## Tetina

Probo said:


> Hello Tetina and others: In fact, it's not easy to know the pronounciation of the ancient greek, because we never eared anyone speaking it . I studied in Lejeune's _Phonétique Historique du Mycénien et du Grec Ancien _about ῥ and I didn't find anything similar to the wikipedia. But if a greek native talk about greek language, I just stop talking. (Sorry once again for my english)


 
Hola Probo.
You're right, it's not easy to know the ancient phonology. But I think with so many studies around ancient greek language we can have some safe conclusions.

P.S. I have actually heard somebody speaking ancient greek. He was not so old to call him ancient .... but at least it's something.


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## shannenms

Tetina said:


> I don't agree with Probo.
> Actually, I think that 'r' s was not a heavy consonant but had a slight "h" pronunciation.
> See also : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_phonology#Liquids


 
Hi Tetina, good to read you around
I'm still not sure about it but I think you mean that it should be pronounced like r im modern Italian.
Is Spritus Asper still in use in modern Greeks?
Thanks.


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## Spectre scolaire

shannenms said:


> Is Spritus Asper still in usage of *in* *M*odern Greeks?


 No. Greeks nowadays write Ρωμιός and not Ῥωμαῖος, “Greek”. Both _spiritus asper_ and _spiritus lenis_ were abolished following the institutionalization of δημοτική in 1976. At least in principle.  _Spiritus asper_ on ρ has not been common for quite some decades. It was considered a typical καθαρεύουσα feature.

There is a chapter on the ῥ in Sydney Allen’s book _Vox Graeca_. 




			
				Tetina said:
			
		

> I have actually heard somebody speaking aAncient gGreek.


 Where? And by whom? 
 ​


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## shannenms

Spectre scolaire said:


> No. Greeks nowadays write Ρωμιός and not Ῥωμαῖος, “Greek”. Both _spiritus asper_ and _spiritus lenis_ were abolished following the institutionalization of δημοτική in 1976. At least in principle.  _Spiritus asper_ on ρ has not been common for quite some decades. It was considered a typical καθαρεύουσα feature.
> 
> There is a chapter on the ῥ in Sydney Allen’s book _Vox Graeca_.
> 
> Where? And by whom?
> 
> ​


 
Thank you for correcting my bad English, Spectre.
But it didn't solve my problem: How is Spritus Asper pronounced?
I wonder how it is pronounced in the Greek classes (which we never have in Iran)?
Thanks.


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## Tetina

> Where? And by whom?


It was by a university linguist professor. 


Phonology is not my specialty nor can I say that it is pronounced like in "x language".  
But as I know and read, it is pronounced like "rh". For example, ρήτωρ = rhetor with "h" being like you exhale, I guess something like "house" in English.
I cite another link for ancient greek phonology, where you will found more infos http://www.ccel.org/s/smyth/grammar/html/smyth_1a_uni.htm


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## wonderment

shannenms said:


> But it didn't solve my problem: How Spritus Asper is pronounced?
> I wonder how it is pronounced in the Greek classes (which we never have in Iran)?



I know I shouldn't utter such blasphemy, but I've never worried too much about the 'correct' pronunciation of Ancient Greek. It is enough for me to understand the meaning of the texts in front of me. But then I'm not a linguist...For what it's worth, rightly or wrongly, I was taught to pronounce the ῥ like the r in rhinoceros (it is trilled). 

i hope this site will be helpful to you, and I hope that it isn't filtered. I'm so sorry that every link I send you is not accessible to you: http://www.foundalis.com/lan/grkalpha.htm

All best,


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## Spectre scolaire

shannenms said:
			
		

> But it didn't solve my problem: How *is *Spritus Asper is pronounced?


 Accents in Greek is a long story. Basically _spiritus asper_ represents a  while _spiritus lenis_ is the absence of a . This seemingly absurd statement indicates that accents in Greek may not only have a phonetic function, but also a word separating function. Greek was formerly written with majuscules and without space between the words.  


I think I’d renew my recommendation of Sydney Allen’s book as my first choice. My second would be to ask _Tetina_ about *the name of this university professor of linguistics*.  My third and last choice would be to search the web. I admit that some people would tend to proceed in reverse order. Yet, our speaker of Ancient Greek will remain in the middle.  ὁ βίος βραχύς, ἡ δὲ τέχνη μακρή. ​


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## shannenms

wonderment said:


> I know I shouldn't utter such blasphemy, but I've never worried too much about the 'correct' pronunciation of Ancient Greek. It is enough for me to understand the meaning of the texts in front of me. But then I'm not a linguist...For what it's worth, rightly or wrongly, I was taught to pronounce the ῥ like the r in rhinoceros (it is trilled).
> 
> i hope this site will be helpful to you, and I hope that it isn't filtered. I'm so sorry that every link I send you is not accessible to you: http://www.foundalis.com/lan/grkalpha.htm
> 
> All best,


 
Thanks for your link, exceptionally it worked on me!!
I read the page cursorily I found some information on R and Spritus Asper, but not a word on pronunciation of R being effected by Spritus Asper.
Thank you after all.


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