# Pronunciation: th-, -th, -thes



## Jose85

How is "breaths" pronunced? If the plural of "mess" is pronunced "messes", is "breaths" pronunced "bresses"? Or is it pronunced simply "bress", being indistinctioned from the singular "breath"?


----------



## .   1

The plural of breath is pronounced as breath*s.*
Simply add an s to the end of breath.

.,,


----------



## foxfirebrand

Both the /th/ and the /s/ are pronounced, and both unvoiced.  And I see by your rhyming examples you know it's a short _e,_ not like the one in _breathe._

I don't think people elide the /th/ and say "bress."  the _th-ss_ succession is not all that hard to pronounce.

.


----------



## gwrthgymdeithasol

Jose85 said:


> How is "breaths" pronunced? If the plural of "mess" is pronounced "messes", is "breaths" pronunced "bresses"? Or is it pronunced simply "bress", being indistinctioned from the singular "breath"?



It's pronounced like 'breath' with a /s/ on the end: /b-r-e-th-s/. Not easy at all for many foreign learners!


----------



## Outsider

It's a difficult word to pronounce, because of the [th] + [s] sounds. No, there is no vowel between them. You just have to listen to native speakers, and practice until you get it.


----------



## Jose85

Okay, so "breaths" is not pronunced "bress". 

Well, are the following words homophones?:

baths - bass
paths - pass
myths - miss
moths - moss
mouths - mouse

I've been pronuncing those words the same way. I guess I've been wrong.

Does "booths" rhyme with "moose"?​


----------



## Jose85

foxfirebrand said:


> And I see by your rhyming examples you know it's a short _e,_ not like the one in _breathe._



Yes, I'm aware that the "ea" in "breath" is distinction from the "ea" in "breathe".


----------



## Outsider

No, those words are do not rhyme in careful speech, although they can sound alike when talking fast.

I think one way to make the "ths" sound is by pronouncing "th" and then "blowing" with your tongue. It's all done with the tongue.


----------



## Outsider

Incidentally, just in case...



Jose85 said:


> Or is it pronunced simply "bress", being indistinctioned from the singular "breath"?


You do know that "breath" is not pronounced "bress", don't you? 

If not, see this thread.


----------



## majlo

Jose85 said:


> Okay, so "breaths" is not pron*o*unced "bress".
> 
> Well, are the following words homophones?:
> 
> baths - bass
> paths - pass
> myths - miss
> moths - moss
> mouths - mouse
> ​



No, they're not homophones. They're pronounced differently. Check the pronunciation in a dictionary.


----------



## Hitch57

"breaths" rhymes with "threats" doesn't it? That is, "brets".​


----------



## elroy

Hitch57 said:


> "breaths" rhymes with "threats" doesn't it? That is, "brets".​


 Not it does not.  The "th" sound is maintained.

Welcome to the forums, by the way.


----------



## Dimcl

Jose85 said:


> How is "breaths" pronunced? If the plural of "mess" is pronunced "messes", is "breaths" pronunced "bresses"? Or is it pronunced simply "bress", being indistinctioned from the singular "breath"?


 
How do you pronounce the word "breathe"?  It should be pronounced with the "th" sound.  Accordingly, "breath" is pronounced with only the change of the sound of the "ea".  The "th" sound remains in "breath" and "breaths".


----------



## mplsray

Dimcl said:


> How do you pronounce the word "breathe"? It should be pronounced with the "th" sound. Accordingly, "breath" is pronounced with only the change of the sound of the "ea". The "th" sound remains in "breath" and "breaths".


 

There are two "th" sounds, which I'll refer to here as 

[th] for the terminal consonant in _myth._

[th] for the initial consonant in _this._

The verb "breathe" has the [th] sound.

The noun_ breath_ and its plural _breaths_ have the [th] sound, as do _myth_ and its plural _myths _and _Goth_ and its plural _Goths._

Now, to complicate matters, _baths, paths, moths,_ _oaths_ and _mouths _can have either the [th] or the [th] sound. According to the _Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary, _the word _mouths _usually has the [th] sound, more rarely has the sound [z] or [th], and compounds such as _blabbermouths _and_ cottonmouths_ would tend to have the [th] sound.

It seems to me, then, that the plural form of words ending in "th" must simply be committed to memory, with no useful general rule to tell when [th] or [th] is used.


----------



## duckie

I provided this link in the previous thread on the th-sound subject, it should be helpful: http://www.uiowa.edu/~acadtech/phonetics/#

mplsray - the two sounds are usually described as voiced and unvoiced (myth being unvoiced).


----------



## Trina

Jose85 said:


> Okay, so "breaths" is not pronunced "bress".  no, it's not
> 
> Does "booths" rhyme with "moose"?​


The "oo" sound in booths is longer than in moose - also there is the different sound "th + s" as opposed to "s"


----------



## Dimcl

mplsray said:


> There are two "th" sounds, which I'll refer to here as
> 
> [th] for the terminal consonant in _myth._
> 
> [th] for the initial consonant in _this._
> 
> The verb "breathe" has the [th] sound.
> 
> The noun_ breath_ and its plural _breaths_ have the [th] sound, as do _myth_ and its plural _myths _and _Goth_ and its plural _Goths._
> 
> Now, to complicate matters, _baths, paths, moths,_ _oaths_ and _mouths _can have either the [th] or the [th] sound. According to the _Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary, _the word _mouths _usually has the [th] sound, more rarely has the sound [z] or [th], and compounds such as _blabbermouths _and_ cottonmouths_ would tend to have the [th] sound.
> 
> It seems to me, then, that the plural form of words ending in "th" must simply be committed to memory, with no useful general rule to tell when [th] or [th] is used.


 
I'm sorry, but I disagree that there are two forms of "th".  The "th" sound in the word "this" is said (in terms of the tongue on the teeth) in exactly the same way as the "th" sound in "bath".  It is only the vowel sound that changes.  In both of your examples, the tongue slightly protrudes out and against the top teeth.  The action required to say "breath" and "breathe" is exactly the same.


----------



## Trina

Dimcl said:


> I'm sorry, but I disagree that there are two forms of "th".  The "th" sound in the word "this" is said (in terms of the tongue on the teeth) in exactly the same way as the "th" sound in "bath".  It is only the vowel sound that changes.  In both of your examples, the tongue slightly protrudes out and against the top teeth.  The action required to say "breath" and "breathe" is exactly the same.



Are you saying that there is no difference (in the "th" sounds) between breath & breathe ; bath & this ?

To me, there is quite a difference - one I would describe as a softer sound than the other one

(similar to the difference between "f" and "v")


----------



## elroy

I agree with Trina.  The "th" in "breathe" and the one in "breath" are two distinct sounds that just happen to be represented the same way in writing.  Arabic happens to have both of these sounds, with a different letter for each - and it wouldn't occur to anyone to consider them the same sound.


----------



## Outsider

They are definitely two different sounds, the voiceless dental fricative and the voiced dental fricative.


----------



## Porteño

In the north of England you will hear 'bath' similar to the AE pronunciation.

A similar distinction of the 'th' sound in 'breath' and 'breathes' exists between the noun and 3rd personal singular of the verb forms of 'mouth'.


----------



## 50something

Personally I can't notice a difference on the sound of "th" between "breath" and "breathe", no doubt they are two different words, but exactly with the same "th" sound. Now the "th" on the word "this" it is very different, it is fonetically a "d".


----------



## Dimcl

Trina said:


> Are you saying that there is no difference (in the "th" sounds) between breath & breathe ; bath & this ?
> 
> To me, there is quite a difference - one I would describe as a softer sound than the other one
> 
> (similar to the difference between "f" and "v")


 
No, I'm saying they're both formulated in the same way with the tongue against the teeth.  If said extremely slowly, the change in sound is caused by the different vowel pronunciation.  My explanation is a result of the original confusion over the "ss" and "th" pronunciation.  Said slowly, the "th" in "breathe" and "breath" are formulated exactly the same way in the mouth.  The difference in pronunciation comes from how the vowels are formed.  Try saying "bre" and "brea" without the th sound...  Then add the "th".  The "th" is formed in exactly the same way in both words.


----------



## konungursvia

/bre0s/ where 0 = Greek theta in International Phonetic alphabet.


----------



## PolCas

What about *"CLOTHES"*? It doesn't seem that the cluster TH + S is always pronounced.  What do you guys say?  Is this a special case?  Does this happen only with some varieties of English?


----------



## panjandrum

Clothes - we pronounce the th here, it is the same as the thes at the end of breathes. Check out the WR dictionary entry for clothes. 

Others will pronounce clothes more or less the same as close. 
Oh, that's close as in close the door, not close meaning not far away 

There are wide national and regional variations in many of the topics already covered in this thread, which make life fascinating for natives and difficult for others.

<< Mod Note:
Please keep to the general topic of th pronunciation.
Panj >>


----------



## duckie

panja, you mean pronounce 'clothes' with a voiced s? As in 'cloze'?


----------



## Hitch57

No doubt "close" and "clothes" are both pronounced the same way. At least that is what I hear from native speakers.

Now, I wants to know if the following words are homophones:

thin, tin

three, tree

then, den

breathes, breeds

booth, boot

I've have been pronouncing them the same way. Have I been wrong? If so, what's the difference?​


----------



## cj427

Nooooo, none of those are homophones!  "th", "d", and "t" are all distinct sounds.


----------



## Hitch57

Okay, well how do I pronounce "then" so that it's distinction from "den" and "booth" so that it's distinction from "boot"?​


----------



## panjandrum

duckie said:


> panja, you mean pronounce 'clothes' with a voiced s? As in 'cloze'?


I pronounce the -thes at the end of clothes the same as the -thes at the end of breathes.
Listen to the WR pronunciation of clothes and then close.



			
				Hitch57 said:
			
		

> Now, I wants to know if the following words are homophones:
> thin, tin
> three, tree
> then, den
> breathes, breeds
> booth, boot


None of those are homophones for me.
The th is pronounced as in the "How to pronounce th in English" thread. Not like t or d.


----------



## Porteño

You simply have to pronounce the 'th', nothing more. nothing less. Sometimes hard as in 'tooth', sometimes soft as in 'booth'.


----------



## .   1

Hitch57 said:


> Okay, well how do I pronounce "then" so that it's distinction from "den" and "booth" so that it's distinction from "boot"?​


By taking time and training your tongue and mouth.
Then starts with a soft sound.  Den starts with a hard sound.
Booth ends with a soft sound.  Boot ends with a hard sound.

.,,


----------



## PolCas

Hitch57 said:


> Okay, well how do I pronounce "then" so that it's distinction from "den" and "booth" so that it's distinction from "boot"?​



To make the TH sound you need to stick out your tongue a little bit so that it gets placed between the upper and lower teeth.  At that position you can make the two TH sounds, which differ only in that one is voiced and the other isn't just as F is unvoiced and V is voiced.

To make the D and the T sounds you need to block the air flow by sticking your tonge against the soft palate (the ridge of the palate a little behind your teeth).  Again, the difference between them is that the D is voiced and the T is unvoiced and plosive(=you let go of some air as you move the tongue).


----------



## Hitch57

PolCas said:


> To make the TH sound you need to stick out your tongue a little bit so that it gets placed between the upper and lower teeth.  At that position you can make the two TH sounds, which differ only in that one is voiced and the other isn't just as F is unvoiced and V is voiced.
> 
> To make the D and the T sounds you need to block the air flow by sticking your tonge against the soft palate (the ridge of the palate a little behind your teeth).  Again, the difference between them is that the D is voiced and the T is unvoiced and plosive(=you let go of some air as you move the tongue).



Okay, I think the problem is is that I am substituting the "t" and "d" sounds for the voiceless and voiced "th" sounds. Thanks you for the explanation on how to make the "th" sounds.


----------



## PolCas

Hitch57 said:


> Okay, I think the problem is is that I am substituting the "t" and "d" sounds for the voiceless and voiced "th" sounds. Thanks you for the explanation on how to make the "th" sounds.



You're welcome.
Check this out:
http://www.uiowa.edu/~acadtech/phonetics/english/frameset.html

For the THs go to MANNER --> FRICATIVE and you'll see two sounds at the Lingua-Dental level.  One is the voiced TH and the other is the unvoiced one.

For the T and D go to MANNER --> STOP and there you'll have them at the ligua-alveolar level.

Have fun.


----------



## panjandrum

What a completely fascinating and really useful site!!!!

Amazing.

Thanks PolCas.


----------



## Porteño

Fab! To say the very least.


----------



## faitdor

Hello everybody, I 'm french and I have some pronunciation questions :
1) "I want the" : do you pronounce the "t" of want?
2) Beyond the : " do you pronounce the "d" of beyond?
3) "With celebrities" : do you pronounce the "c" of celebrities?

thank you in advance!


----------



## PaulQ

1) "I want the" : do you pronounce the "t" of want? - Yes
2) Beyond the : " do you pronounce the "d" of beyond? - Yes
3) "With celebrities" : do you pronounce the "c" of celebrities? - Yes, as in *sell*


----------



## faitdor

Thank for your quick answer!


----------

