# Casse-toi alors pauvre con!



## zenmanxpt

He said it to a person in the crowd as he was shaking hands. As far as I know it means "get lost". Is it really worse than that? I'm not allowed to post a link  to the clip.
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Moderator note: several threads on the same topic were merged. Please do not open a new thread on this topic, surely all you need to know about it is within this thread.This thread is closed. 
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## lemec

zenmanxpt said:


> He said it to a person in the crowd as he was shaking hands. As far as I know it means "get lost". Is it really worse than that? I'm not allowed to post a link  to the clip.



"get lost you poor cunt"


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## Cilquiestsuens

lemec said:


> "get lost you poor cunt"


 
I agree with you: "casse-toi" said to someone is an aggression... It is threatening: get lost or I will hit you....


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## vanagreg

Cilquiestsuens said:


> I agree with you: "casse-toi" said to someone is an aggression... It is threatening: get lost or I will hit you....


 
No, not necessarily. "Casse-toi" means "get lost", a rude way of telling somebody to go away.

The context: 
- Visiteur : Ne me touche pas, tu me salis!
- Sarkozy: Casse-toi alors pauvre con!

_- Don't touch me, you're making me dirty!_
_- Get lost then, dumbass! _


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## lemec

or "get lost lowlife"


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## Alipeeps

lemec said:


> "get lost you poor cunt"


 
I think your choice of insult there is a little too strong for the context - that is an extremely offensive word in English. :/

[...]


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## Spleen

How about "Shove off!" without getting into politics !


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## Aoyama

Casse-toi (also "beat it") is quite vulgar and on " a scale from one to four", listing :
1- va-t'en
2-tire-toi
3- fous le camp
4-casse-toi
would proudly get the best rating (4) for vulgarity ...


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## tinygathe

casse -toi mean go away ... it's familiar


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## Spleen

On TV, I heard hims say right after that "quel con! ou "quelle bande de cons!" So I think "go away" is a little light for that tone in his voice. He was furious! That's why I suggested "Shove off" and agree with some of the early proposals (get lost followed by an insult (maybe not so much "poor cunt". Can someone tell me how to use the smileys?


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## Moon Palace

I would rather say 'get lost, asshole' to translate this. 
'con' is really a strong vulgar but commonplace way of saying this, the kind of word some youngsters say in every sentence.


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## Aoyama

More also at :http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=74125

I'd vote , simply, for : "fuck off ,you poor bastard".
The French version will no doubt become , from now on,a famous quotation ...


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## Dan Badger

'con' is always a hard word to translate - I think it so much depends on the ferocity of the statement as others have pointed out. Given Mr Sarkozy's anger here, I think a good translation would be 'prick' - I think 'poor bastard' is good, too but would sound more British English to me as 'you sad bastard'.

Dan


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## lisbeth.feldspar

Moon Palace said:


> I would rather say 'get lost, asshole' to translate this.
> 'con' is really a strong vulgar but commonplace way of saying this, the kind of word some youngsters say in every sentence.



I would like to vote for "asshole" (my, what a strange sentence!).  "C**t" is exremely, extremely vulgar (I am no prude, and even I can't quite bring myself to type it), whereas "con" is not quite as shocking, I think.

Also, more swearing nuance: if it was a man he said it to, then "c**t" as a translation would be even stronger.  To call a man that word is the height of insult, whereas to call a woman this word is more like a sexist/misogynist dismissal.  (Still horrifying, though.)  And even more interestingly: "asshole" is almost never used for women.  I have no idea why, just something I've noticed.  One would say "bitch" for a woman, "asshole" for a man.

This was all a  bit much before my morning coffee...!  

lisbeth


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## sam's mum

for _con,_ I would recommend _twat;_ in theory equally insulting (as cunt) but close enough to the mild _twit _to be in common use. Otherwise, _wanker _is getting very common these days, so is not such an insult as before


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## Perhonorificus

Spleen said:


> How about "Shove off!" without getting into politics !


This gets my vote 

"Shove off, you sad prick!"


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## Pedro y La Torre

lemec said:


> "get lost you poor cunt"



Best translation.  That is very close to what an Irish person would say.


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## Aoyama

Aren't we picky ...
Prick is good, asshole may be too much ...
The wide lexical covering of "con" can be discussed endlessly but I would say that in this _particular_ case, it is nothing but a _mild_ insult, not to be taken for more than what it is.
This being said, for the sake of clarity and for those who may want to know, here is the actual context :
the French President went about to shake hands with everybody close to him, in this "Salon de l'Agriculture", imitating his predecessor J. Chirac. He met with somebody not quite happy about shaking his hand, telling him :
"touche-moi pas, tu me salis" (grammatically wrong for "ne me touche pas") = touch me not, you (will) dirty/soil me", hence the rest ...


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## Nicomon

vanagreg said:


> The context:
> - Visiteur : Ne me touche pas, tu me salis!
> - Sarkozy: Casse-toi alors pauvre con!


 
imho, in this specific context _Casse-toi alors,_ _pauvre con_ means nothing other than _Déguerpis/fiche le camp alors, pauvre imbécile._

My try :
_Well then scram, you sad moron / idiot!_


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## Moon Palace

Just to add something concerning the translation of this insult: I don't think we can translate it literally, so that indeed 'cunt' is out. What ought to be taken into account is how common the insult is - and 'con' is really very common these days. And what is conveyed : I would say what is meant here is that the person was considered as very stupid because of what he had previously said. Hence my suggestion of 'asshole' which conveys this idea of silliness. 
I like Nicomon's suggestion 'moron' but I think it is too nice a register for 'con'. 
imho.


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## sam's mum

Moon Palace said:


> Just to add something concerning the translation of this insult: I don't think we can translate it literally, so that indeed 'cunt' is out. What ought to be taken into account is how common the insult is - and 'con' is really very common these days. And what is conveyed : I would say what is meant here is that the person was considered as very stupid because of what he had previously said. Hence my suggestion of 'asshole' which conveys this idea of silliness.
> I like Nicomon's suggestion 'moron' but I think it is too nice a register for 'con'.
> imho.


 
I mostly agree, except that for me _asshole_ sounds US English, not GB English. _Dick_ or _dickhead_ are other possibilities. In my opinion, _cunt_ is far too rude - I would expect a bloke to get punched if he called anyone that.


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## Perhonorificus

So far, I like _prick_ and _asshole_ the most. I agree that _cunt_ is overkill in this case (as is _fuck off_).



			
				Nicomon said:
			
		

> _Well then scram_


I don't think that's very intimidating


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## rathersane

The Reuters story on the incident translated it as "Get lost, dumbass," which seems to jibe to what this discussion is getting at.

If you haven't seen it yet, just go to YouTube and search for Sarkozy, it will be on top of the results. I liked the way he just kept that smile the whole time.


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## Punky Zoé

Hi all

IMHO, it is vain trying to graduate the offense and to measure it's depth in vulgarity. The context and who utters that words are more important than the words themselves. The same expression in another mouth and in another context would have  had a different intensity.

 P.S. the smile is a kind of mask.


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## Perhonorificus

It is true this endeavor will probably turn out to be fruitless. Truth be told, the original uttering holds little interest, save for the fact that it came straight out of the French president's mouth. Nicomon and I have even wondered if the meaning of _con_ changes (perhaps subtly) from one locality to another.


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## lamoufette

Je sais qu'on divague vers la definition du mot 'cunt' au lieu de parler de la phrase originale 
(la traduction en americain serait peut-etre 'well f*** off then loser')
mais dit aux EU 'cunt' est assez rare et mille fois plus fort qu'en Angleterre, ou il se dit assez souvent.


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## xtrasystole

Moon Palace said:


> I would say what is meant here is that the person was considered as very stupid because of what he had previously said. Hence my suggestion of 'asshole' which conveys this idea of silliness


I concur, _'asshole'_ sounds fine to me. 

Besides that, it seems to me that he said _'Casse-toi *alors*, pauvre con'_. 

So, how about _'Get lost then, you jerk'_ ?


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## lisbeth.feldspar

xtrasystole said:


> I concur, _'asshole'_ sounds fine to me.
> 
> Besides that, it seems to me that he said _'Casse-toi *alors*, pauvre con'_.
> 
> So, how about _'Get lost then, you jerk'_ ?



A small refinement (not having to do with "con," alors!):
"Get lost then, you *sorry* asshole."  To capture "pauvre."

lisbeth


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## Punky Zoé

About the use of con, there is a previous thread on WR, and I think here "pauvre con" is said in a patronizing way.


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## QBU

fuck off asshole!
Catherine


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## xtrasystole

Mmm... I don't think so. That sounds clearly way too strong...


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## lamoufette

These translations are all soooo regional - In California, I can hear no one saying 
'get lost then you jerk.'  It sounds humorous and quaint.  The use of the tu form was what made me chose the term 'f-off, loser' I am giggling at the idea of an American Prez saying anything remotely like, 'get lost then you jerk' and they're probably too old to use the word loser, so I modify my original translation to the most likely to actually have been said by a head of state (D. Cheney, peut-etre) 'f-off, asshole'


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## roymail

Perhonorificus said:


> Nicomon and I have even wondered if the meaning of _con_ changes (perhaps subtly) from one locality to another.


 
This is true for "con", but "pauvre con" is always offensive.


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## Moon Palace

Punky Zoé said:


> About the use of con, there is a previous thread on WR, and I think here "pauvre con" is said in a patronizing way.



I don't think it is only patronizing, I'd rather say it is scornful, despicable to the utmost, what with the smile hanging on his face all the time.


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## Perhonorificus

roymail said:


> This is true for "con", but "pauvre con" is always offensive.


I never said it's not, but there could still be some subtle differences depending on one's locality, which could then have an impact on the translation.

Obviously, it's not a nice thing to say, no matter how you look at it.


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## Padraig

Not only must one consider how it is nuanced in France, but one must also take account of how people in the English-speaking world react to the words that are offered as translations. Irish people, for the most part, are less offended by words like _fuck_ and _cunt_ than are Americans. I think the English fall about halfway between. I would be cautious about expressing a view about other English-speaking peoples.

I would translate it (for my compatriots) as _Fuck off, you pathetic cunt._ I don't think that is a suitable translation for Americans.

However you nuance it, I suspect that we would all agree that it is not language that a leading politician should use in public.


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## lilatranslator

Moon Palace said:


> I would rather say 'get lost, asshole' to translate this.
> 'con' is really a strong vulgar but commonplace way of saying this, the kind of word some youngsters say in every sentence.


That's how I translated it.


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## lisbeth.feldspar

Padraig said:


> I would translate it (for my compatriots) as _Fuck off, you pathetic cunt._ I don't think that is a suitable translation for Americans.



To put it mildly.... 

An American in Canada,
lisbeth


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## marcheparche

I just watched the video and I'd say that, without trying to be literal, the correct translation having heard his tone of voice would be:

"get lost then, you loser"

I don't think that Sarkozy meant to say asshol* or any of the other stronger connotations mentioned above, he knew he was being filmed.

In any case, I think that "con" can have multiple meanings and it should be interpreted, in context, and also taking into account who said it and in what tone of voice.

"Connard" always sounds stronger to me...


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## Arrius

In idiomatic UK English of the same register, one might say: "*Why don't you (just)sod off, you silly twat?!"* _Twit _instead of _twat_ iwould be milder and perhaps preferable in the mouth of such a distinguished personage.


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## realteacher

lisbeth.feldspar said:


> Also, more swearing nuance: if it was a man he said it to, then "c**t" as a translation would be even stronger. To call a man that word is the height of insult, whereas to call a woman this word is more like a sexist/misogynist dismissal. (Still horrifying, though.)


 
I can't agree with that one, I'm afraid. I suppose it very much depends on region and social setting, but I believe "cunt" is consistently the most taboo insult that can be directed at a woman, whereas I have lived social situations in which men use the term in a merely gently mocking, almost affectionate manner.

However, I'm 100% behind you on the "asshole" thing.
"Go to Hell, asshole", "Get out of here, asshole", or perhaps even, "Get bent, dumbass", might be my American English rendering.

In British English, I would go for: 
"Well piss off then, you sad tosser"
or "Piss off then, stupid prick"

"Bloody idiot" captures the idea of "con", but only British people at least ten years older than Sarkozy would actually say that.


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## lisbeth.feldspar

realteacher said:


> I can't agree with that one, I'm afraid. I suppose it very much depends on region and social setting, but I believe "cunt" is consistently the most taboo insult that can be directed at a woman



Oh, I absolutely agree!  I only meant that it might be even more insulting for a man than for a woman (because emasculating _as well as_ mean), although I agree that it's just about the most insulting thing you can call anyone in North America, regardless of gender. 

I sometimes like to call women "assholes" as an insult (not to their faces, of course -- I hardly ever have occasion to insult someone to his/her face), because it sounds slightly funny and "off," therefore more humorous than insulting.

lisbeth


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## Padraig

The question of translating strong language is interesting.

Further to my comment about nuancing for readers from different places, I have just read back through the thread, and find it interesting to note that American participants, even when discussing the use of words like _fuck _and _cunt_, cannot bring themselves to spell the words out fully. [The same goes for _the N-word -- He used the N-word_ rather than _He called her a nigger_. Whether using the word with purpose, or discussing it as a word, American sensibilities seem more delicate than those of some other groups.]


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## lisbeth.feldspar

Padraig said:


> The question of translating strong language is interesting.
> 
> Further to my comment about nuancing for readers from different places, I have just read back through the thread, and find it interesting to note that American participants, even when discussing the use of words like _fuck _and _cunt_, cannot bring themselves to spell the words out fully. [The same goes for _the N-word -- He used the N-word_ rather than _He called her a nigger_. Whether using the word with purpose, or discussing it as a word, American sensibilities seem more delicate than those of some other groups.]



Hmmm....  interesting point, although I think each American has his or her own taboo words-that-must-not-be-uttered.  I have no problem saying/writing fuck (in fact, it's one of my favorite adverbs!), but cannot say/write that c-word.   Dunno why.  I can say that it's completely idiosyncratic.  Twat?  No prob.   C**t?  Can't go there.

Surely in Ireland you have words equivalent to "the N-word," that are so loaded with horrifying history that no one wants to even say them anymore???

lisbeth


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## KaRiNe_Fr

Hello there,

Be sure « Casse-toi, alors, pauvre con ! » is not a level of speech expected by a president. *It is really bad*, whatever your political opinion is!
It is at least inelegant in everyone's mouth.
It is disdainful: using the « tu » is even enough, not to mention the slang « casse-toi » and « pôv'con » said with a sufficient smile. The « pôv'con » (it's how it is pronounced)  is here to stress how stupid and such a little thing (compared to the Big Character speaking) the other person is.
So please, English speakers, don't try to put it mildly...


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## roymail

lisbeth.feldspar said:


> Oh, I absolutely agree! I only meant that it might be even more insulting for a man than for a woman (because emasculating _as well as_ mean), although I agree that it's just about the most insulting thing you can call anyone in North America, regardless of gender.
> 
> lisbeth


 
In french, when we say "con" to somebody, we don't thing specially of the real thing


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## gshenaut

I think it's basically superstitious behavior. "Fuck" is a good example: supposedly, it is very vulgar because it refers to sexual intercourse, yet, "sexual intercourse" is not vulgar, and "fuck you" and "fuck off" don't really have anything to do with sexual intercourse. "Fuck" in such expressions is really a just magic formula, like a curse or hex.

I see it as related to things like "G-d",  "Celui-dont-le-nom-ne-doit-pas-être-prononcé" dans Harry Potter, and saying "Bless you" when someone sneezes. The superstitious magic and ritual of words.


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## Padraig

lisbeth.feldspar said:


> Hmmm....  interesting point, although I think each American has his or her own taboo words-that-must-not-be-uttered.  I have no problem saying/writing fuck (in fact, it's one of my favorite adverbs!), but cannot say/write that c-word.   Dunno why.  I can say that it's completely idiosyncratic.  Twat?  No prob.   C**t?  Can't go there.
> 
> Surely in Ireland you have words equivalent to "the N-word," that are so loaded with horrifying history that no one wants to even say them anymore???



Of course we are all individuals when it comes to choice of vocabulary, whether it be strong language or otherwise, but there are also broad cultural differences which are worth noting.

I don't actually use the word _cunt_ (I don't think I ever have, even in banter), but I have no problem discussing it as a word or quoting somebody's utterance that includes the word or telling a joke that involves a pun on the word (I know a good one). In that, I think you and I might reflect the difference that we are discussing. If Jane Fonda used the word on television here, she might raise an eyebrow or two, but she wouldn't raise Cain as she seems to have done in the US -- and I understand that she was not using it pejoratively at the time.

Translation involves cultural appreciation (among many other things). That is why attempting to translate what Sarkozy said is interesting: people from different language communities need different representations of what he said.

Yes, we have words in Ireland that have become subject to restriction. But they are not being driven out of general discourse; rather their use is limited to their denotative meaning in appropriate circumstances. _Spastic_ is an example. Relatively few people now use it as a term of abuse. It's part of the pattern: we are not quite as bothered by words as are Americans.


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## Nicomon

lilatranslator said:


> "Con" can also mean "stupid". Eg:"Ne sois pas con, " "C'est con de penser ceci ou cela". So it's not really that bad!!! It's used very often by everybody.


 
My point exactly. And this is how I understand it here. As a Quebecer, I am not easily offended by words like _asshole_, _fuck off_ or any religious swear, but I honestly don't think this is what _Casse-toi alors, pauvre con!_ means. I think one can be _stupid/idiot/moron, _without being an _asshole_, which to me is _trou de cul_. 

Think for instance the movie, _Le diner de cons_. Nobody would translate _con_ as _asshole, prick, bastard, jerk _or _cunt_, now would they? imho, _Pôv con_ is demeaning, but more in the sense of, and as I suggested earlier (#29) _pauvre imbécile_. I see it as Punky Zoé : patronizing/condescending. Now I admit that my initial suggestion of _Well then scram, sad moron... _doesn't really _"_cut the mustard_"._ 

Dans ce contexte, et en québécois, àma _pauvre con_ se traduirait par _(pauvre)_ _épais/niaiseux. _

After reading the whole thread, I'm starting to believe that suggestions like _Get lost /buzz off then, you pathetic moron/loser/dumbass are_ very close in meaning.


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## roymail

KaRiNe_Fr said:


> Hello there,
> 
> Be sure « Casse-toi, alors, pauvre con ! » is not a level of speech expected by a president. *It is really bad*, whatever your political opinion is!
> It is at least inelegant in everyone's mouth.
> It is disdainful: using the « tu » is even enough, not to mention the slang « casse-toi » and « pôv'con » said with a sufficient smile. The « pôv'con » (it's how it is pronounced) is here to stress how stupid and such a little thing (compared to the Big Character speaking) the other person is.
> So please, English speakers, don't try to put it mildly...


 
I agree with Karinefr.
The word is not so bad, but in that context, it is


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## Nicomon

roymail said:


> I agree with Karinefr.
> The word is not so bad, but in that context, it is


 
Would you then both say that in context, « pauvre con » is like saying « trou de cul » or « trouduc »_?_ If so, then I misunderstood, and _asshole_ or _prick_ it is. But these sound more to me like _sale con_, than _pauvre con_. 

_*Dumbass *_seems like the happy medium.


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## lamoufette

but a president wouldn't use the word dumbass! (a 14 year old boy yes) Imagine D. Cheney or Trent Lott. What kind of English would they use? Buzz off? unlikely. The guy on the reception line says 'Don't touch me, you disgust me' and the president says . . . nothing if he keeps his cool, but if he loses it . . . I thought of something 'American President' sounding - why not 'Go to hell, jackass' which has a nice biblical ring.


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## Nicomon

My mistake. Didn't know better about dumbass. Jackass may work.

I had found _buzz off_ in this thread about casse-toi. Don't think it really means _Go to hell_. Then again... may be. I just don't know how intense the word is. 

Sarkozy wouldn't happen to be bilingual, by any chance? May be someone should ask him to translate his own words. 

I'm signing off this thread.


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## Nillah

Les traductions fournies par l'AFP ont évidemment influencé les expressions utilisées, mais l'on trouve tout de même une variété due au flou sémantique de notre mot d'argot. En anglais, «bloody idiot» le dispute à «you jerk», «poor cretin», «stupid bastard», «sad idiot» ou «stupid asshole»

http://www.lefigaro.fr/hightech/200...sse-toi-pauvre-con-fait-fureur-sur-le-web.php


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## Spleen

Great thread! As well described by most, these words scornful in every which way, coming from a President!
So, when I picture myself furious, in a safe place, behind the closed windows of my car, I'd say "Fuck off, asshole!" with no qualms. We all have our favorite words and the British and Irish expressions are great but just not the ones that come to our (US) minds ! Keep these threads coming. We are learning a lot and getting things off our chest at the same time.


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## Aoyama

I agree (as often) with Karine (post #58) when she stresses that *pôv'con* has a special meaning.
I'd go even further, you could link it with *pôv'type *(poor fellow, poor bugger -pauvre bougre- poor bastard), so that would _reduce_ the insult (if there really was one):
" en fait *pôv'con* , est une expression figée, courante, qui ne relève pas vraiment de l'insulte".
One could also add :
"...mais si on réfléchit, pauvre con est finalement assez neutre, il aurait pu dire "sale connard" ... Pauvre con, comme pauvre type, il y a quelque pitié quelque part, presque de la compassion ..."
Former PM Raffarin even said (on Arte, Feb. 25) that Sarkozy's words were "an expression of virility", not quite ... He could have also said " casse-toi pauvre enculé" (or something like this).
But that may come also , let's wait... _Quo non ascendet ..._


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## Padraig

One does not always know from the nom de clavier if a poster is male or female (well, this one doesn't). For those not familiar with Irish names, let me clarify that I write as a male, because that is what my genes have decided.

I disagree with Aoyama. I don't think the qualifier _pauvre_ reduces the insult. It changes it, and my male ego would consider that it increases it, because its purpose is to diminish the standing of the target. I would be more offended to be called a _pathetic cunt_ than to be called a _cunt_, because the latter can be treated as insult between equals, as man-to-man stuff.

The use of _pauvre_ is alpha-male behaviour.


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## sam's mum

I like the bit on the video when Sarkozy gives a boyish grin as if to say 'oooh I said a bad word!' If he was swearing to make himself look big (as if!) would that change the meaning, and therefore the translation?


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## Nicomon

I said I was signing off, but... just one last thought.

Would something like "miserable low life" be in the same register as _pauvre con_ or am I again being too soft in my choice of words?


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## dewsy

> Would something like "miserable low life" be in the same register as _pauvre con_ or am I again being too soft in my choice of words?



Not too soft at all, miserable low life would be pretty insulting.

Just to add another one, I saw CNN translated it as "total jerk".


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## sam's mum

Right.
What about
_Up yours, pal!_
Seems to me that could work in US and GB English, if said in a forceful and condescending way. Is it strong enough, though?


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## lilatranslator

sam's mum said:


> Right.
> What about
> _Up yours, pal!_
> Seems to me that could work in US and GB English, if said in a forceful and condescending way. Is it strong enough, though?


I think it's too strong for that context.


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## Angle O'Phial

Most pretty mild (with the exception of Time), perhaps for fear of offending readers? I've got to say that I like the Globe and Mail best, as suggested above by *realteacher*.

National Post (Canada) : _Get away, you stupid bastard_
AP : _Get out of here, you poor jerk_
Independent Online (South Africa) : _Get lost, stupid bastard_
Time magazine : _Bugger off, poor asshole_
Globe and Mail : _Get lost, dumb ass_
IHT : _Then get lost, you poor jerk_
The Times (South Africa) : _Get lost, you stupid bastard_
The Telegraph : _Get lost, you stupid bastard_
AFP : _Get lost, you stupid bastard_
FT : _Shove off, you jerk! Shove off!_


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## Parigigi

Fuck off is too strong.

"'Well then,) piss off, you miserable idiot / poor jerk" ?


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## Aoyama

[...]
Come to calmly think of it, I find "then go home you poor bastard" (_then_ for *alors* , heard faintly on the video, a direct answer to the "touche-moi pas ...") quite suitable here. Another option, that I personally like, because it would fit Mr. Sarkozy's profile, would be to replace bastard (more like "salaud" in French) with _*schmuck*_.
(Then) Go home you poor/sore schmuck ! _I can hear it ..._

On the use of "con" there is a lot to be said, but I still repeat that it is a mild insult. Adding "pauvre" makes it even milder. And then, no sexism here, "pauvre conne" is very common as well .

Thank you Angle O'Phial for your enlightening post.


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## Parigigi

I'm not sure adding "pauvre" makes "con" milder - it adds another quality : a pitiful aspect to this "con". You're so "con" it makes you pitiful, it can't be helped, you can't do anything about it etc.


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## Charly79

Although I like the syllabic rythm of

"Well piss off then you sorry schmuck",

I cant help feeling that "schmuck" has got too much of "screw-up" and "ass hole" about it, as does "jerk", and that it doesn't quite catch that condescenting, derogatory, patronizing quality of "pauvre con", which I think is at the core here, being launched from the president at the citizen.

I would therefore stop at

"Well piss off then you miserable shit".

The "well", or "well then" in some form or another is, as has been pointed out, necessary with the "alors" - the meaning beeing conclusive: if you dont want to greet and praise me, there is no need for you to be here.


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## lisbeth.feldspar

Angle O'Phial said:


> Most pretty mild (with the exception of Time), perhaps for fear of offending readers? I've got to say that I like the Globe and Mail best, as suggested above by *realteacher*.
> 
> National Post (Canada) : _Get away, you stupid bastard_



"Get away" -- that's terrible.  Not even idiomatic English.  Je rougis pour ma nouvelle patrie. 

The combination of "piss off" and "shmuck" is just weird, to me.  "Piss off" is very English, and "shmuck" is Yiddish.  Two different _argots_....

lisbeth


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## Arrius

En anglais argotique britannique, _get away_! = sans blague! (j'ai de la peine à te croire). Et comme adjectif du même genre que le substantif _schmuck_ , je propose, mais pas très sérieusement: _*mushegger *schmuck_ _(pauvre crétin)!_


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## lisbeth.feldspar

Arrius said:


> Et comme adjectif du même genre que le substantif _schmuck_ , je propose, mais pas très sérieusement: _*mushegger *schmuck_ _(pauvre crétin)!_



Parfait! 
lisbeth


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## realteacher

Charly79 said:


> ...I would therefore stop at
> 
> "Well piss off then you miserable shit".
> 
> The "well", or "well then" in some form or another is, as has been pointed out, necessary with the "alors" - the meaning being conclusive: if you dont want to greet and praise me, there is no need for you to be here.


 
Yes, that's my new favourite as a British English translation, considering tone and appropriate register for a man of Sarkozy's social class and age.

*lamoufette*'s suggestion of, "Go to hell, jackass", is a good American English one, but I'm still swaying between 'jackass' and 'asshole'.


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## Regemoelle

J'ai trouvé un court article sur 20minutes.fr qui parle du problème de la traduction de la désormais célèbre réplique du président français :
(I can't insert hypertext link so here is the full adress of the article with one "w" missing) :
ww.20minutes.fr/article/215296/France-Comment-traduire-casse-toi-pauvre-con.php

Ce ne sont pas que des traductions anglais-français mais j'ai trouvé ça intéressant


- Sur le site Clarin (Argentine), la version sophistiquée: «Dégage, pauvre demeuré» («Rajá, pobre pelotudo»)

- Sur le site d'El Pais (Espagne): «Tire-toi de là, pauvre couillon!» («¡Pírate, pobre gilipollas!»)

- Sur le site de la BBC (Royaume-Uni), la classe toute britannique: «Va-t’en, espèce d’imbécile d’heureux» («Get lost then you bloody idiot, just get lost!»)

- Sur le site du New York Times (Etats-Unis), qui reprend la dépêche signée Associated Press: «Alors barre-toi, abruti fini» («Then get out of here, you total jerk»)

- Sur le site de "Times" (Royaume-Uni), une version édulcorée: «Va te faire bip, triple buse» («P*** off, stupid sod»)

- Sur le site de "Die Welt" (Allemagne): «Barre toi, tête de con» («Hau ab, du Dummkopf»)


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## sassin

Chez moi en Caroline du Sud on dirait plutôt "you damn fool" pour "pauvre con" mais ça pourrait être un régionalisme. I think that the word "fool" captures some of the meaning of "pauvre" in this context.


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## Arrius

sassin said:


> Chez moi en Caroline du Sud on dirait plutôt "you damn fool" pour "pauvre con" mais ça pourrait être un régionalisme. I think that the word "fool" captures some of the meaning of "pauvre" in this context.


 
No, it would be said in the UK too, but probably by an older person of some education. The youth would use more violent and unkinder colloquialisms.


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## loze85

lisbeth.feldspar said:


> "Get away" -- that's terrible.  Not even idiomatic English.  Je rougis pour ma nouvelle patrie.
> 
> The combination of "piss off" and "shmuck" is just weird, to me.  "Piss off" is very English, and "shmuck" is Yiddish.  Two different _argots_....
> 
> lisbeth




Just wanted to say that we use "get away" in BE although less commonly than "piss off" and more often than not to mean "shut up"/"no way" in  exclamation to something unbelievable that has been said.

xx


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## Nix1

What a fascinating discussion!

Pity we're not permitted to get into the rights and wrongs of a person in this position using this phrase in this context however because I feel that would contribute to this site. Too often we see translations but it's not really clear in which context they're really be suitable, or even if they're still in everyday usage...

So at the risk of repeating previous posts, as a Brit, I would translate this as "get lost then, you sad bastard". 

And at the risk of being flamed I would add that it is the verbal equivalent of John Prescott lashing out at the guy who chucked eggs at him (remember that incident?!)

Also Dan Badger, I would reiterate what has been said previously, it's in the tone and context. Just because the word is used more widely in Ireland, doesn't really reduce it's impact in certain situations, especially if used with other swearwords (particularly "f*cking"). 

Example:

If your mate does something idiotic, like locking his keys in the car, you might call him a "silly c*nt" in an amused tone of voice. 

If on the other hand, someone deliberately tried to push you under the wheels of a moving bus, you could quite conceivably turn round and say, "you f*cking cunt" and I don't think there'd be any doubt that you were really angry.....


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## Padraig

Dan Badger said:


> I think it is interesting,and generally true, what Padraig and Pedro Y La Torre have said about the differences in what is acceptable in terms of swearing in English speaking countries. There are obviously differences within regions and countries as well, depending on class and education.
> If 'cunt' has lost much of it's impact in Ireland as the taboo swearword - what do you use when you're really angry?



You are right to recognize that the impact of some swearwords is reduced rather than eliminated. We don't substitute different words; interpretation of what is said depends on the circumstances and the manner of delivery -- which brings us right back to the challenge of figuring out what Sarkozy said.

[Me -- I never get really angry.]


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## lisbeth.feldspar

loze85 said:


> Just wanted to say that we use "get away" in BE although less commonly than "piss off" and more often than not to mean "shut up"/"no way" in  exclamation to something unbelievable that has been said.
> 
> xx



Ah, thank you!  So something more like "Get outta here!" in AE, but when used to mean "You're joking, no way!"  But then I still contend it's a bad translation, bien sûr, even if it is a BE idiom. And a Canadian newspaper shouldn't be using BE idioms in their translations, anyway! 

As for *meshugga/meshugener schmuck*: yeah, it sounds funny, which is part of its charm.  Je pense qu'on a divagué en peu, ci-dessu. 

lisbeth


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## Aoyama

Well, I have just been told that President Sarkozy ( a great admirer of Serge Gainsbourg) must have been inspired by one of his song "Balade pour un Con "(the music theme of the movie Le Pacha, 1968, by Georges Lautner) which ended with "Pauvre con !".
It just came from a song, then ...
On the matter of compassion (with a wee bit of disdain, I agree), there must have been some, because the "attacker" was using poor French (touche-moi pas), clearly showing low-class origin ... Was he really _poor_ , we may never know (strangely enough, no one speaks about finding him, _why ?_), but he was certainly not _rich ..._


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## xtrasystole

Padraig said:


> Neither the word _["pauvre"]_ nor the manner of its delivery suggests compassion. In my reading, it is intended to diminish the standing of the insultee. If anything, it makes the insult greater


I'm with Padraig on this. To me, _'pauvre'_ clearly adds an air of contempt to the insult.




Aoyama said:


> ... "racaille" (scoundrel, rascal -the English version-) another famous term of endearment used by President Sarkozy


To be fair, he was only minister of the Interior at the time (≈ home secretary, I believe).


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## friendharry

Trading off literalness against actual meaning is always tricky, but in this case the prickly situation and the manner of the President's delivery seem to suggest the right English words.  Casse-toi, used in this situation, is similar in meaning to several English idioms like split, flake off, beat it, scram, but the exact contemptuous shade of meaning here might be closest to "get lost".  Pauvre con is highly idiomatic and doesn't really have the obscene meaning that it appears to.  It just means "pathetically dumb", and it can be translated fairly closely by the english word "loser".  Both the French phrase and the English word imply that the speaker holds himself above the hearer and is expressing contempt for the hopeless state of the hearer.  If someone refused to shake hands with you because you might soil them, you too might say, "Then get lost, loser."


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## Angle O'Phial

Or in Canadian,

Hose off ya hoser


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## yvo

furthermore, how you translate "pauvre con" in english?


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## çamegonfle

nino: ok then you did well not to ask!

I just checked _get lost_ in the dictionary and actually tasmane is right, it would also go, I'm sorry for not checking beforehand


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## yvo

serage005 said:


> tout simplement *fuck off*


"casse-toi pauvre con" is translating by "fuck off" only?
i think it misses "pauvre con" in this translation


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## CDHMontpellier

"Fuck off, asshole" or "fuck off, jerk" might suffice.


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## çamegonfle

I think nino only wanted to know what means casse-toi

pauvre con is: _stupid guy_

even though it sounds weak in French but _bastard_ might be too strong..


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## nino4ka

yvo said:


> furthermore, how you translate "pauvre con" in english?



I'm confident I know how it translates in my mother tongue, Finnish, but about English I am not so sure.

What makes it have many translation options is that 'con' can be translated both as dumb and as an idiot/bastard/something, from what I know. Maybe 'pauvre con' could be 'you pathetic bastard'.


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## serage005

non je veux dire que fuck off or shave off =casse toi et pauvre con =*asshole*


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## nino4ka

çamegonfle said:


> pauvre con is: _stupid guy_
> 
> even though it sounds weak in French but _bastard_ might be too strong..



In fact yes... I proposed bastard in my previous message, but I am not good at evaluating all the nuances of English  C'était ma faute !


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## çamegonfle

_you pathetic bastard_ sounds quite good! it might be the best translation for it.


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## çamegonfle

hey nino, I can not better English than you! combined with pathetic before it describes really well the combination pauvre + con

then it makes: _fuck off, you pathetic bastard!_


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## nino4ka

çamegonfle said:


> _you pathetic bastard_ sounds quite good! it might be the best translation for it.



Thanks, I am impressed if I was able to interprete it that near to its original sense! (My English having some lacks)


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## Areyou Crazy

i think that pauvre con
could mean poor c&&t
buy more politely the words of the President could be translated as
'Get lost then sad git'


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## Aoyama

For those who want to get a definite answer,:http://www.20minutes.fr/article/215296/France-Comment-traduire-casse-toi-pauvre-con.php


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## pyan

This thread is now closed.  If any member has a different, serious suggestion for translating the term, not covered in the thread or the many links supplied, he or she may contact a moderator.


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