# I saw my car stolen.



## Robby Zhu

Hi,

If I want to express,
1. I saw the  progress of my car being stolen.

can I rephrase it as,
2. I saw my car stolen.

If they don't mean the same, what does the second one suggest?

Thanks if you would help.


----------



## ysn

The car being stolen means that someone or who else was/were stealing your car, it is in the progressive passive voice, but my car stolen means there is no definite  time that your car is stolen and stolen here is like an adjective as an object complement which modifies the car.
In general, they have the same meaning even they are structurally different.


----------



## london calling

Robby Zhu said:


> 2. I saw my car stolen.


It's grammatically correct but not idiomatic. I'd be more likely to say 'I saw my car being stolen'.

Sentence 1. is incorrect.


----------



## ysn

This sentence: "My car is/was being stolen" is right when it stands alone, but  the same sentence will be like this: "I saw *my car stolen*", not "being stolen" because stolen here functions as adjective not a verb to follow "being" despite it is derived from the same structure when stands alone.
The second sentence may be like this: I saw my car which was being stolen because here it is a relative clause, not to describe the car as an adjective complement.So you must change the structure of the first sentence, but the second sentence is grammatically and meaning right without doing any change.


----------



## Kimaunz

How about "I saw my car being stolen.", and "I found my car gone." in each case?


----------



## lingobingo

1. I saw the  progress of my car being stolen.  (not at all iidiomatic)
2. I saw my car stolen.  (unlikely)

I saw my car being stolen 
I watched as my car was stolen 
I saw them steal/stealing my car 

I saw that my car had been stolen = I found [that] my car [had] gone


----------



## ysn

Gone is not  converted into passive voice because go is intransitive verb which does not take an object:
 I saw my car stolen is right.
I saw my car which was being stolen is right.
I found my car is not right because go is intransitive verb can`t be converted into passive voice. For example: I go to school. 
we can`t say: the school is gone, pay attention that to school is prepositional phrase, not an object.


----------



## Kimaunz

But I assume 'gone' itself can be used as an adjective. So I guess the sentence like "How long will you be gone there?" makes sense.


----------



## london calling

Kimaunz said:


> But I assume 'gone' itself can be used as an adjective. So I guess the sentence like "How long will you be gone there?" makes sense.


No, it doesn't, I'm afraid.


----------



## london calling

ysn said:


> This sentence: "My car is/was being stolen" is right when it stands alone, but  the same sentence will be like this: "I saw *my car stolen*", not "being stolen" because stolen here functions as adjective not a verb to follow "being" despite it is derived from the same structure when stands alone.
> The second sentence may be like this: I saw my car which was being stolen because here it is a relative clause, not to describe the car as an adjective complement.So you must change the structure of the first sentence, but the second sentence is grammatically and meaning right without doing any change.


See my post above and LB's comments below. The second sentence needs to be changed to make it idiomatic.


----------



## ysn

How is gone as an adjective?
I saw the door open.
I saw the door opened.
Both sentences are right in meaning, in the first one, open is and adjective which is an object complement.
But in the second, its structure is: I saw the door which was opened by who else, here opened is participial verb, not adjective,
and must stand alone like this: The door which was opened.
The door is open is different from the door is opened. In the first, open is an adjective or subject complement, but the second, opened is a main verb (past participle) because this sentence is in the passive voice.


----------



## Kimaunz

The following dialogue makes sense:

A: You seen my keys?
B: No. What's the matter?
A: They were here a while ago. But they're gone.

In the above dialogue, 'gone' is an adjective.


----------



## lingobingo

“I found my car gone” is not a passive construction.

Yes, “I saw my car stolen” is correct – as another way of saying you saw it [in the process of] *being* stolen. But the same construction can be used differently; for example, “In a single week, I saw my car stolen, my job lost, and my children taken from me”.

“I saw my car which was being stolen” is ambiguous. If that’s meant as a non-restrictive relative clause, a comma is needed. But even then it’s an unlikely sentence.

“I *found* my car gone” is perfectly idiomatic. It means I *discovered that* my car was/had gone. And yes, *gone* is an adjective: Definition of Gone by Oxford Dictionary on Lexico.com


----------



## london calling

Yes, 'gone' is an adjective in that dialogue.


----------



## ysn

You saw/have seen my keys, not seen my keys.
How keys gone? Who let them go? it is nonsense
They are/were lost, not gone.
They are gone. Structurally this is right, but in reality, there is no meaning.
verb to be with "en" verb is not adjective, it is passive verb structure.


----------



## ysn

“I saw my car which was being stolen” is ambiguous." How, please explain...
You could delete " which was being" as relative clause, deletion in this situation is good as it does not change the meaning or it is not necessary, or it is known from the context.


----------



## Kimaunz

"They're gone." means "They disappeared."


----------



## ysn

*Kimaunz, we don`t discuss the meaning, we talk about the grammar.

go here means fly like the bird- using metaphor.*


----------



## Kimaunz

According to The Random House Dictionary of the English Language, 'gone' is shown as an adjective and has at least the following meanings:

1. departed; left
2. lost or hopeless
3. ruined
4. that has passed away; dead
5. past
6. weak and faint
7. used up
8. pregnant
9. exceptionally outstanding (slang)


----------



## london calling

ysn said:


> You saw/have seen my keys, not seen my keys.
> How keys gone? Who let them go? it is nonsense
> They are/were lost, not gone.
> They are gone. Structurally this is right, but in reality, there is no meaning.
> verb to be with "en" verb is not adjective, it is passive verb structure.


It isn't nonsense. Of course there is a meaning. I suggest you re-read all the posts above.


----------



## Kimaunz

ysn said:


> You saw/have seen my keys, not seen my keys.
> How keys gone? Who let them go? it is nonsense
> They are/were lost, not gone.
> They are gone. Structurally this is right, but in reality, there is no meaning.
> verb to be with "en" verb is not adjective, it is passive verb structure.


In informal English, "You seen my keys?" is short for "You have seen my keys?" that means "Have you seen my keys?"


----------



## london calling

INo, it's short for 'Have you seen...?'.


----------



## lingobingo

ysn said:


> “I saw my car which was being stolen” is ambiguous." How, please explain...


I saw my car, which was being stolen  (= I saw my car. It was being stolen!)
I saw that my car was being stolen!  (a more likely statement)

I saw my car which was being stolen
Could be read as meaning…
I saw the car of mine that was being stolen. (But my other car was safe.)​


----------



## ysn

Kimaunz, here we don`t talk about the meaning, we talk about the structure or transformation(al)  rules, some times nouns can be adjective like: Tom is a boy.  a boy here is a subject complement function like adjective. Tom is good, good here functions as subject complement, so good and a boy have the same structure as subject complement to describe Tom despite good is an adjective while a boy is a noun.
Be gone can function as an adjective to describe a noun in the sentence.
But when be gone stands alone or to analyse the sentence it is impossible to be an adjective, It is passive verb structure and go is intransitive verb which can`t take an object to be in passive voice, but we exceed this step by using it metaphorically in structure and meaning. I hope you  get the point.


----------



## ysn

I agree with you totally: 
I saw my car, which was being stolen  (= I saw my car. It was being stolen!)
I saw that my car was being stolen!  (a more likely statement)

I saw my car which was being stolen
Could be read as meaning…
I saw the car of mine that was being stolen. (But my other car was safe.)"


----------



## ysn

"In informal English, "You seen my keys?" is short for "You have seen my keys?" that means "Have you seen my keys"
We do not talk about slang language, but standard.
"You*`ve*  seen my keys?" is short for "You have seen my keys?"
*I`ve seen = I have seen*


----------



## kentix

"I saw my car get stolen." is something you might hear in AE in casual speech.


----------



## Kimaunz

I've found that there are occasions when 'go' can be used as a transitive verb, and in that case requires an object like in the following case:

I'll go fifty dollars for a ticket, but no more.

So I suspect that 'go' was possibly used as a transitive verb as well as an intransitive in olden days. But I'm not sure. Is there anyone out there who can explain this? If 'go' can be used as a transitive verb, then there is no problem saying 'gone' could be used as an adjective.


----------



## Kimaunz

ysn said:


> "In informal English, "You seen my keys?" is short for "You have seen my keys?" that means "Have you seen my keys"
> We do not talk about slang language, but standard.
> "You*`ve*  seen my keys?" is short for "You have seen my keys?"
> *I`ve seen = I have seen*


But we can and should be able to talk about authentic English, and informal English is authentic.


----------



## ysn

*Kimaunz, w*hen the verb takes an object, so it is a transitive verb and can be converted into passive voice.
He is dead. dead is an adjective, but  he was died by Allah (The God) is passive voice sentence.


----------



## ysn

When talking about grammar, use standard/academic English, not English for communication or Native English, chatting, etc.


----------



## Kimaunz

ysn said:


> *Kimaunz, w*hen the verb takes an object, so it is a transitive verb and can be converted into passive voice.
> He is dead. dead is an adjective, but  he was died by Allah (The God) is passive voice sentence.


You can say "He died a heroic death." But I doubt you can say "He was died by Allah."


----------



## lingobingo

Yes. Die is always intransitive,* of course. The transitive equivalent is kill. 

(* Except perhaps in the _Goon Show_ on BBC radio in the 1950s! ) – The Goon Show running jokes - Wikipedia


----------



## Kimaunz

lingobingo said:


> Yes. Die is always intransitive,* of course. The transitive equivalent is kill.
> 
> (* Except perhaps in the _Goon Show_ on BBC radio in the 1950s! ) – The Goon Show running jokes - Wikipedia


'die' can be used as a transitive verb as well. I already took an example like the following:

The soldier died a heroic death for his country.

It's something similar to the following in terms of grammatical structure:

The man lived an unhappy life after his wife's death.

I dreamed (dreamt in BrE) a strange dream last night.


----------



## Kimaunz

ysn said:


> When talking about grammar, use standard/academic English, not English for communication or Native English, chatting, etc.


In this forum, I think, you're allowed to debate informal English too.


----------



## ysn

Some verbs can be transitive and at the same time they are  intransitive, if it takes an object, so it is a transitive verb. 
We can discuss informal English that is normal, but not to apply English grammar as the standard for informal English.
Die is , in general,  an  intransitive verb like the verb "catch" like : He was caught by the police. it is both transitive and intransitive verb.


----------



## lingobingo

Kimaunz said:


> 'die' can be used as a transitive verb as well. I already took an example like the following:
> 
> The soldier died a heroic death for his country.


That’s true. But it’s an exception, an idiom.


----------



## Kimaunz

ysn said:


> Some verbs can be transitive and at the same time they are  intransitive, if it takes an object, so it is a transitive verb.
> We can discuss informal English that is normal, but not to apply English grammar as the standard for informal English.
> Die is , in general,  an  intransitive verb like the verb "catch" like : He was caught by the police. it is both transitive and intransitive verb.


So do you admit that "My keys are gone." makes sense?



lingobingo said:


> That’s true. But it’s an exception, an idiom.


It's not an idiom, and not an exception, either. An idiom is a phrase or an expression that we do not know the meaning of word by word, something like 'play it by ear', 'I'm done in', etc.


----------



## lingobingo

Of course it’s an exception. How many other ways can you name in which *die* is used transitively?


----------



## Kimaunz

lingobingo said:


> Of course it’s an exception. How many other ways can you name in which *die* is used transitively?


It's not an exception, and what I mentioned is the only case that I know where 'die' is used as a transitive verb.


----------



## lingobingo




----------



## DonnyB

The original question, which was about the use of "saw my car (being) stolen" has been answered.  The subsequent discussion has veered off at a tangent in several places and is no longer focussed enough to make a coherent thread for our forum.  I'm therefore now closing it: thanks to everyone who has taken part.  DonnyB - moderator.


----------

