# Pronunciation of the "v" sound



## badgrammar

Merhabalar!

I just got back from three weeks in Turkey and wanted to find out if it is a question of regional accent that I heard so many people pronounce words like "evet" or "reservaziyon" as "e*w*et" and "reser*w*aziyon"?  

At first I thought I was mis-hearing it, but as I listened more and more closely, it seemed that, atleast for "evet", 9 times out of ten I would hear "e*w*et".  I even started saying it that way myself ...

Edited to add another example: "Kavun".  I asked the name of this green melon (maybe honeydew in English) and was told it was "ka_un".  I just went to look it up, thinking "ka*h*un", only to find it is "ka*v*un".  So the pronunciation I was given was, to my ear "ka*w*un".


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## avok

badgrammar said:


> Merhabalar!
> 
> I just got back from three weeks in Turkey and wanted to find out if it is a question of regional accent that I heard so many people pronounce words like "evet" or "reservaziyon" as "e*w*et" and "reser*w*aziyon"?
> 
> At first I thought I was mis-hearing it, but as I listened more and more closely, it seemed that, atleast for "evet", 9 times out of ten I would hear "e*w*et". I even started saying it that way myself ...
> 
> Edited to add another example: "Kavun". I asked the name of this green melon (maybe honeydew in English) and was told it was "ka_un". I just went to look it up, thinking "ka*h*un", only to find it is "ka*v*un". So the pronunciation I was given was, to my ear "ka*w*un".


 
Yes, you are right Turkish "v" is somewhere between v and w. But it also depends on what you expect to hear. For instance, if those people pronounce the English word "web" or "sewer", you will hear a "v" not a "w" ( because you expect to hear a w)

But I noticed the same thing in English too!! Many Brits (assuming Americans too) pronounce "over" somewhere between "over" and "ower", the "v" is not that strong. The Dutch/Germans pronounce, for instance the English word "*v*olleyball" with a strong "v" unlike Turks and Brits.

I am pronouncing the word "kavun" right at the moment on my own, and yes it almost sounds like "ka'un", I can even say that the "v" of kavun is closer to "ğ" of "soğan"

ps. I hope you had good time in Turkey


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## badgrammar

Thanks Avok (or is it "Awok?)!  I see your point about how, if you're expecting a hard "v" sound it could sound like a "w" sound, and if you're expecting a soft "w" it could sound more like the hard "v".  Good examples.

But then, does it have anything to do at all with regional accents?  For sure, there were some people I could understand much better than others, and although I can't describe the accents, I could hear definite differences (atleast compared to the Istanbul accent).

Yeah, we had a great time in Turkey, as always.  Already planning our next two trips (Istanbul this winter, and another boat trip next summer).  Great country!


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## Chazzwozzer

badgrammar said:


> But then, does it have anything to do at all with regional accents?  For sure, there were some people I could understand much better than others, and although I can't describe the accents, I could hear definite differences (atleast compared to the Istanbul accent).


Well, yes. Istanbul accent doesn't have the "w" sound, while you can clearly hear that in Southeastern Turkish.


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## badgrammar

Aaaah!  That's what I was thinking, since I was more familiar with the Istanbul accent and hadn't noticed that before.  This time I met more people from other regions, and it was wery wery distinctive, the "w" sound in many words.  

So in Istanbul, "kavun" is pronounced with a clear "v" sound, or is the sound elipsed, as in "ka'un"?


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## avok

badgrammar said:


> Thanks Avok (or is it "Awok?)! I see your point about how, if you're expecting a hard "v" sound it could sound like a "w" sound, and if you're expecting a soft "w" it could sound more like the hard "v". Good examples.
> 
> But then, does it have anything to do at all with regional accents? For sure, there were some people I could understand much better than others, and although I can't describe the accents, I could hear definite differences (atleast compared to the Istanbul accent).
> 
> Yeah, we had a great time in Turkey, as always. Already planning our next two trips (Istanbul this winter, and another boat trip next summer). Great country!


 
Yes, sometimes Turkish "v" sounds like "w" but it is never a "w" like in English nevertheless, in Turkish, if a word ends with a "v" it is pronounced rather soft so it sounds *like* "w" whereas in English "have" may sound something like "haf" or something close. That's it. The standard accent does not have a "w" sound. Yes in some regional accents, they do have "w" sound instead of "v": southeastern and eastern accents. They pronounce "ve" as "we"


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## avok

badgrammar said:


> Aaaah! That's what I was thinking, since I was more familiar with the Istanbul accent and hadn't noticed that before. This time I met more people from other regions, and it was wery wery distinctive, the "w" sound in many words.
> 
> So in Istanbul, "kavun" is pronounced with a clear "v" sound, or is the sound elipsed, as in "ka'un"?


 
Heiiiii, I speak with Istanbul accent!! and in spite of this it is generally "kawun" or "ka'un" for me. Because between "a" and "u", it becomes hard to pronounce a clear "v" sound? Right? How do you pronounce "over" in English? I am sure it is not between "over" and "ofer" but it is a "v" closer to "ower". Because a clear "v" is supposed to be closer to "f" not to "w".

"Kavun" is not a good example!! If you want to understand if the speaker pronounces "v" like "w" because of their regional accent , you have to (hef to  ) find a word that *begins* with "v". The "v" in kavun is in the middle so it is dangerous, it can be pronounced as "kawun" any time by any speaker in any part of Turkey 

Choose this word "ve" which means "and" in Turkish as you know. If the speaker says "we" oooooops it is regionallllllllll. ok ?


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## Outsider

avok said:


> I speak with Istanbul accent!! and in spite of this it is generally "kawun" or "ka'un" for me. Because between "a" and "u", it becomes hard to pronounce a clear "v" sound? Right?


I beg to differ, and I speak from experience! 

It looks like the Turkish sound you are talking about may be some intermediate between "v" and "w", such as the labiodental approximant.


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## avok

Outsider said:


> I beg to differ, and I speak from experience!
> 
> It looks like the Turkish sound you are talking about may be some intermediate between "v" and "w", such as the labiodental approximant.


 
Yes, Outsider, this "labiodental approximant" looks sensible to me because German "w" sounds always like our "v" not the "v" in English. Then why Turkish is not on the list ? 

But I did not understand why you said "I beg to differ"


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## Outsider

avok said:


> Yes, Outsider, this "labiodental approximant" looks sensible to me because German "w" sounds always like our "v" not the "v" in English.


They sound the same to me, at least in standard German. Dutch is well-known for having the labiodental approximant. Perhaps some German regional dialects do, too.



avok said:


> But I did not understand why you said "I beg to differ"


It means "I disagree".


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## avok

You mean that German "w" and English "v" sound the same?  Yes, but....I'll try to explain... in English "sometimes" v sounds like "f" ex. "I have to" sounds like "I hef to" because of the "t" that comes after "v". But in German and Turkish this is never the case, (our v and their w never sound as f ) that's why they put German "w" on the list of Wikipedia. In German "v" already sounds like "f" and in Turkish we have "f"... hmm a bit complicated. Yes I think Turkish v : German w: some English v's.

Think about the English word "expensive", the letter "v" of expensive is to be pronounced as "v" according to the phonetics but the native speakers pronounce this letter like German "v" not like German "w" and not like Turkish "v" ? It is somehere between "v" and "f" expensiv/f. Or the word "of" it is barely "ov" but mostly "of/v"

I know you said you dont agree but why... I mean disagree on what ?


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## Outsider

avok said:


> You mean that German "w" and English "v" sound the same?  Yes, but....I'll try to explain... in English "sometimes" v sounds like "f" ex. "I have to" sounds like "I hef to" because of the "t" that comes after "v". But in German and Turkish this is never the case, (our v and their w never sound as f ) that's why they put German "w" on the list of Wikipedia. In German "v" already sounds like "f" and in Turkish we have "f"... hmm a bit complicated. Yes I think Turkish v : German w: some English v's.
> 
> Think about the English word "expensive", the letter "v" of expensive is to be pronounced as "v" according to the phonetics but the native speakers pronounce this letter like German "v" not like German "w" and not like Turkish "v" ? It is somehere between "v" and "f" expensiv/f. Or the word "of" it is barely "ov" but mostly "of/v"


The word "of", pronounced /ov/, is an exception.

As for the other examples, there may be a little devoicing in practice in English. Nothing is truly absolute in phonetics. However, if that happens it's a minor allophonic variation. I'd say that natives wouldn't notice the difference between an English "v" and a German "w", assuming there is any.

Concerning the pronunciation of phrases such as "I have to", please note that here the "v" sound occurs before a consonant /ai hav tu/, which if I'm not mistaken never happens with "w" in German. It's quite possible that the English "v" is a little less voiced due to the influence of the voiceless consonant /t/ which follows it, but I would wager that the only reason why you never hear this in German is that German phonotactics simply does not allow the cluster /vt/.



avok said:


> I know you said you dont agree but why... I mean disagree on what ?


I disagree that it's in any way difficult to pronounce a [v] sound between an [a] and a . In Portuguese there is a suffix _-avo_, pronounced /avu/ -- or just think of the name "Gustavo", which rhymes with that suffix -- the /v/ is most definitely clearly pronounced.

P.S. By the way, for the pronunciation of English words like "over", just click here.


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## avok

> I disagree that it's in any way difficult to pronounce a [v] sound between an [a] and a . In Portuguese there is a suffix _-avo_, pronounced /avu/ -- or just think of the name "Gustavo", which rhymes with that suffix -- the /v/ is most definitely clearly pronounced.




Hehe...I said hard in Turkish  it just does not sound natural in Turkish. When I pronounce "Gustavo" I always have a clear v of course. Just in Turkish we do not have to.

Hmmm...I think in German no word ends with "w" so I should not know how a German would pronounce if a word ends with a German "w".



> the only reason why you never hear this in German is that German phonotactics simply does not allow the cluster /vt/.


 
Yes that's  what I am trying to say. English does allow the cluster. So when English allows the cluster, the pronunciation of the letter "v" differs from the German w and Turkish v. 



> The word "of", pronounced /ov/, is an exception.


Ai, ai....you did not read my post thoroughly, did you?   I 'll try again..........

"Of " should be pronounced as "ov" but when natives speak it sounds somewhere between "ov" and "of". For instance "of course" sounds not "o*v *course" but " o*f *course" maybe a cluster happens here too, I would not know. But this thing does not happen in German and in Turkish. ( I can't think of a Turkish word that contains -vk- though, maybe Turkish does not allow this kind of cluster either...)

To keep it short English v : German w as long as there is no cluster involved.


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## badgrammar

Outsider said:


> Concerning the pronunciation of phrases such as "I have to", please note that here the "v" sound occurs before a consonant /ai hav tu/.



Yes, the main reason this changes is because of the consonant that follows.  Avok's "I hef to" example is very good, as that is exactly how a Turk will say that phrase - whereas I (AE native) would say "I haf to" - the difference really being the vowel sound, and not the unvoiced fricative consonant. Could be linked to instinctive vowel harmony, no? 



Outsider said:


> I disagree that it's in any way difficult to pronounce a [v] sound between an [a] and a .




To me as well it is surprising that it would be hard for some to pronounce the "avu" cluster; knowing that it is difficult in Turkish gives me a little more insight into pronunciation.  



Outsider said:


> P.S. By the way, for the pronunciation of English words like "over", just click here.



For sure I always pronounce the "v" in "over", but I think in BE it may very well become something like a labiodental approximant.


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## Outsider

avok said:


> Ai, ai....you did not read my post thoroughly, did you?   I 'll try again..........
> 
> "Of " should be pronounced as "ov" but when natives speak it sounds somewhere between "ov" and "of". For instance "of course" sounds not "o*v *course" but " o*f *course" maybe a cluster happens here too, I would not know. But this thing does not happen in German and in Turkish. ( I can't think of a Turkish word that contains -vk- though, maybe Turkish does not allow this kind of cluster either...)


You're right, I had misread you, and I think the explanation is the one you have suggested: the phoneme /v/ undergoes voicing assimilation with the consonant which follows it. So, "of gas" is realized as [ov gas], but "of course" is realized as [of kors].

I'd never noticed this before, by the way!



badgrammar said:


> Avok's "I hef to" example is very good, as that is exactly how a Turk will say that phrase - whereas I (AE native) would say "I haf to" - the difference really being the vowel sound, and not the unvoiced fricative consonant. Could be linked to instinctive vowel harmony, no?


Hmm, many nonnative speakers of English pronounce that "a" more close than it should be, making it sound like an "e". Romance speakers do it, too.


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## avok

badgrammar said:


> Avok's "I hef to" example is very good, as that is exactly how a Turk will say that phrase - whereas I (AE native) would say "I haf to" - the difference really being the vowel sound, and not the unvoiced fricative consonant. Could be linked to instinctive vowel harmony, no?


 
Oh badgrammar, first of all, I speak English with a very distinctive British accent  I never pronounce "h*a*ve" as "h*e*f". I am not Australian  I tried to imitate American English when I wrote "hef". By the way, it is not "hef" it is "he*f'**t*o". On its own it is "h *ae* v" but I don't know how to write "h ae v" with my keyboard so I wrote "h*e*v", considering that "e" is the closest letter to "ae" sound in phonetics.

By the way, a typical Turkish accent would be "hév" or "hev" or even "ai hev tu" for "I have to" while it should be "ai h*ae*f t(u)"

It has nothing to do with vowel harmony, in Standard Turkish there is no "ae" sound but we have "open e" like in French.


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## avok

Outsider said:


> You're right, I had misread you, and I think the explanation is the one you have suggested: the phoneme /v/ undergoes voicing assimilation with the consonant which follows it. So, "of gas" is realized as [ov gas], but "of course" is realized as [of kors].
> 
> I'd never noticed this before, by the way!.


 
I knew you misread me  Yes, I guess I have good ears


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## Grosvenor1

Many Turkish speakers I know tend to pronounce "v" more like "w". _Kavun _can sound more like _kawun, _for example_. _Most of the people I know are of Kurdish or Zaza origin. 

Since Kurdish has a "w" sound, I wonder if that influences the Turkish pronunciation of some people?


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