# Persian: âberu -آبرو



## PersoLatin

I'd like to know how آبرو - âberu has come to mean honour, reputation, standing: 
آبرو. [ ب ِ ] (اِ مرکب ) آبروی . آب روی . جاه . اعتبار.شرف . عِرض . ارج . ناموس . قدر (Dehkhoda -Dehxodâ):

*آبرو ‏ریزی *and *آبرو ‏‏ریختن *mean, the act of dishonouring oneself or being dishonoured by someone, depending on the context of use. However, splitting *آبرو *to* آب *(âb) & *رو *(ru), and reading it as *آب رو ریختن* (without the 'zir' on *آب*) would change its meaning to, throwing/pouring water over (someone) which is an unpleasant act, hence dishounoring them. Could that have been the starting point of it?

Of course there are آبرو داشتن/ بردن too, which operate on آبرو, as a single word, and may not work so well, with *آب رو*. These could easily have been developed after آب and رو, were 'mistakenly' joined to make آبرو.

Or was the original word آبرو - âbru (without the 'zir') which may refer to 'beads of sweat' on foreheads of the '*honourable*' folks toiling the land?


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## CyrusSH

It could be related to Middle Persian verb _burzidan_ (to honour).


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## colognial

PersoLatin said:


> Or was the original word آبرو - âbru (without the 'zir') which may refer to 'beads of sweat' on foreheads of the '*honourable*' folks toiling the land?



I'm not sure about this, but I think what you refer to in the quoted part of your post seems acceptable: Aab (water) on the face is a sign of dignity. If you remove the water off somebody's face, you have disgraced them.


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## PersoLatin

colognial said:


> Aab (water) on the face is a sign of dignity.



Is this actually correct, is âb a metaphorical reference to 'sweat' on the brow or forehead?


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## colognial

I think so. It's probably a reference to the person's feeling of shame, an emotion that is sometimes outwardly manifest through perspiration appearing on the person's face. So when you 'remove the water from the face', you are actually causing the beads of sweat to come off their face. I'm only guessing, you see, but I think this is the basic idea.


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## PersoLatin

That's why I said it too but I thought the first reasons I gave, were more probable.


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## Treaty

آب also means "brightness" or "glittering". So, it is possible that آب رو simply refer to the the "brightness of face" (contrasting to رو سیاهی, "the darkness of face
").


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## colognial

This is possible, too. When one thinks of the idiom as آبروی کسی را ریختن, then one may automatically think of shaming people or disgracing them. But when it's a case of آبروی کسی را بردن, Treaty's interpretation seems a more sensible one. Maybe it's both.


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## PersoLatin

hi Treaty, I can't help but pose the same question for *روسیاهی *i.e. how has it come to mean dishonour? Is it due to burns, smoke, dirt on someone face, or something more unpleasant, like reference to a person's نژاد ?


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## Alfaaz

Relevant dictionary entry from Platts, which is the same explanation that Treaty SaaHib provided above:


> P آب _āb_ [Old P. _āw_, Pehl. _āp_, Zend _ap_, S. -अप्] s.m. Water; water or lustre (in gems); temper (of steel,& c.); edge or sharpness (of a sword, &c.); sparkle, lustre; splendour; elegance; dignity, honour, character, reputation.
> 
> —_āb-rū_, s.f. _Lit._ 'brightness of face'; honour, character, reputation, rank, dignity; grandeur; pride, credit, ornament, show, appearance





			
				PersoLatin said:
			
		

> hi Treaty, I can't help but pose the same question for *روسیاهی *i.e. how has it come to mean dishonour? Is it due to burns, smoke, dirt on someone face, or something more unpleasant, like reference to a person's نژاد ?


 In many cultures, _black ink, etc._ used to be rubbed on a person's face to disgrace him/her. Could it be related to this practice...?


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## PersoLatin

Thank you Alfaaz.



Alfaaz said:


> In many cultures, _black ink, etc_



I myself don't know about this tradition, except that, as part of the Persian new year celebrations, there's something similar but I don't know the background to it, so I can't comment on it.

It's interesting that in your reference, āb-rū or ābru, does't have the ezāfé (so not āberu) which must be the correct way of pronouncing it.

So Iranians should make an effort & pronounce ābru correctly for:* آبرو داشتن*/* بردن *and *آبرو ‏‏ریختن *but I suppose life's too short to put all these mistakes right, there are far too many.


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## colognial

Such a waste of good ink! Thank you, Alfaaz. We have this saying in Persian: زمستان رفت و روسیاهی به زغال ماند. It means, more or less, "now winter is over, the [unused] charcoal is left black-faced", a reference to the fact that charcoal that's not been burnt is black. I suppose I'm trying to agree with you, Alfaaz, that روسیاهی has no connection with the colour of the skin, i.e. race, but with face that has been blackened, i.e. with disgrace brought on a person.


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## CyrusSH

I think the more important thing is the meaning of "ru", like in kamru, porru, az ru raftan, ru dashtan, ...


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## PersoLatin

Surely that's obvious, no?

Face, front, side, cover, over.

ru in the sense you are referring to, is no different - In fact in English 'having too much front' means being rude, or porru, same applies to other examples.


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## CyrusSH

What about "az ru raftan", going from face?!!


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## Alfaaz

colognial said:
			
		

> ... I suppose I'm trying to agree with you, Alfaaz, that روسیاهی has no connection with the colour of the skin, i.e. race, but with face that has been blackened, i.e. with disgrace brought on a person.


Yes, there is certainly no intention of relating anything to race! I thought I should mention this, since such topics can be sensitive. Here is a reference as well:


> —_rū-siyāh_, adj. & s.m. Having the face blackened; sullied in honour, disgraced; infamous; criminal; unfortunate;—one whose face is blackened; disgraced person, &c.:—_rū-siyāhī_, s.f. The state of having the face blackened; disgrace, dishonour, infamy; criminal conduct


 Slightly off topic, but it is interesting how سرخرو - _surx-ru_ has positive connotations, even though in English we might consider it as a sign of blushing → embarrassment..?!


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## colognial

Which connotations are those, Alfaaz? Does سرخ رو appear in the classical literature, by any chance?


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## Alfaaz

I unfortunately cannot say much about its appearance in classical literature, but some examples are listed here. Also, it seems that the compound may have had the meaning of _embarrassment_ as well according to the entry in this Persian dictionary.


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## colognial

I see. You're right. Thank you for the links. I interpret the word as mainly meaning 'healthy', 'sanguine', and not infrequently as 'flushed', perhaps 'enraged' or 'excited'. I suppose these meanings are indeed positive ones in the main.


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## PersoLatin

CyrusSH said:


> What about "az ru raftan", going from face?!!



Odd comment. Maybe you can tell me what it means.


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## PersoLatin

MacKenzie Pahlavi dictionary says MP husraw (hwslwb) NP xusraw (خسرو), means, famous, of good repute. 

Can someone help with this please: Is husraw made up of hus (خوش) +  raw, or hu (خوب)+ s (??) + raw? And is 'raw' the same as NP ru for face?

Maybe ru in آبرو means 'repute' rather than face, in this case.


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## Treaty

Please take a look at this:
KAYĀNIĀN     vii. – Encyclopaedia Iranica


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## fdb

PersoLatin said:


> MacKenzie Pahlavi dictionary says MP husraw (hwslwb) NP xusraw (خسرو), means, famous, of good repute.
> 
> Can someone help with this please: Is husraw made up of hus (خوش) +  raw, or hu (خوب)+ s (??) + raw? And is 'raw' the same as NP ru for face?
> 
> Maybe ru in آبرو means 'repute' rather than face, in this case.



It is from hu "good" and sraw "word, reputation". sraw and rō(y) are not related.


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## fdb

Treaty said:


> آب also means "brightness" or "glittering". So, it is possible that آب رو simply refer to the the "brightness of face" (contrasting to رو سیاهی, "the darkness of face
> ").



āb-rō(y) is clearly a compound of āb and rō(y). āb means “water” of course, but it is frequently used in the metaphorical sense “brightness, glitter etc.” The compound seems to be an inverted tatpuruṣa “brilliance of face” and hence “honour, good repute”. I have not seen it in Middle Persian and venture to suggest that it is simply a calque on Arabic māʼu l-wajh ماء الوجه , which has exactly the same meanings, literally “water of the face”, then “honour”.


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## PersoLatin

^ Thanks fdb.

Is there a NP version of 'sraw'?


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## molana

آبرو, from Old Persian "āba-rauda":


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## molana

One can now claim that the Arabic word "ماء الوجه" is doubtlessly a loan translation from Persian "آبرو".


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## Treaty

molana said:


> آبرو, from Old Persian "āba-rauda"


Old Iranian for آب is _apa/āpa_ not _āba_. Besides, the asterisk (*) before the word indicates that this word is not attested but reconstructed. Considering fdb's (#24) suggesting of a lack of evidence in MP, it would have been nice to know based on which link the author decided there is an Old Iranian predecessor for this word.


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