# I have to go to eat dinner



## ѕαмм

I would like to say, I have to go to eat dinner. 

I know the first sentence below is correct, is there any chance I can use haben to express the same?

Ich muss abendessen gehen.


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## Gernot Back

ѕαмм said:


> Ich muss abendessen gehen.


Almost perfect!

_Ich muss zu Abend essen. _​ or_Ich muss zum Abendessen (gehen)_.​


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## ѕαмм

Vielen dank!

I forgot that müssen means, need to, have to, must. So, haben doesn't make sense here :/


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## Gernot Back

Wir sagen auch nicht:

_Ich *habe Frühstück, Mittagessen oder Abendessen._ ​ 
Das ist kein idiomatisches Deutsch!

_Wir essen zu Mittag oder zu Abend oder wir frühstücken._ ​ 
Da ist nichts mit _haben _auf Deutsch!


But on the other hand:

_Ich habe (pünktlich) zum Abendessen zu gehen_​ 
... instead of using the modal auxiliary _müssen_ would indeed make sense in German!


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## ablativ

ѕαмм said:


> Ich muss abendessen gehen.



_I can't play with you any longer, for "ich muss abendessen gehen" _- that's what children usually say when the have to go home for dinner in the evening.

But not being sure for 100 %, I've looked it up and "Duden" says it's Austrian style and not unusual at all (3 bars out of 5).

Even though Duden says it's Austrian language, I may have said this sentence many hundred times and I am not Austrian at all.

http://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/abendessen


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## dubitans

ablativ said:


> _I can't play with you any longer, for "ich muss abendessen gehen" _- that's what children usually say when the have to go home for dinner in the evening.
> 
> But not being sure for 100 %, I've looked it up and "Duden" says it's Austrian style and not unusual at all (3 bars out of 5).
> 
> Even though Duden says it's Austrian lanuage, I may have said this sentence many hundred times and I am not Austrian at all.
> 
> http://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/abendessen



100 per cent Austrian myself, I'm interested to know whether you also say "mittagessen gehen" as we do.


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## Arukami

dubitans said:


> 100 per cent Austrian myself, I'm interested to know whether you also say "mittagessen gehen" as we do.



I agree with ablativ: I've heard and said this expression dozens of times, same goes for "mittagessen gehen".


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## dubitans

We also say "Ich war gerade abendessen", "Warst du schon mittagessen?" etc.


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## ablativ

dubitans said:


> We also say "Ich war gerade abendessen", "Warst du schon mittagessen?" etc.



So do we!


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## Gernot Back

dubitans said:


> We also say "Ich war gerade abendessen", "Warst du schon mittagessen?" etc.


Hem, ...  – would you also say:

_Ich abendesse heute zuhause. _​ or_Ich esse heute zuhause abend._​
???

Is _abendessen _a non-separable verb in German or a separable one?



If the latter: What does _abend _or _mittag _taste like? (Just pulling your leg! )


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## dubitans

Gernot Back said:


> Hem, ...  – would you also say:_Ich abendesse heute zuhause. _​ or_Ich esse heute zuhause abend._​
> ???
> 
> Is _abendessen _a non-separable verb in German or a separable one?
> 
> 
> 
> If the latter: What does _abend _or _mittag _taste like? (Just pulling your leg! )



ablativ has already posted this link to Duden http://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/abendessen. Duden says that only the infinitive and past participle are used. Hence, while _Ich habe abendgegessen _is often heard at least where I live, _Ich abendesse_ is not possible.
While Duden only mentions the infinitive and the past participle, I would also accept the present participle in a more formal register of speech: _​Zum verabredeten Zeitpunkt fand ich ihn abendessend vor.


_Gernot Back jokingly asks what _Mittag _and _Abend_ (capitalised by me) taste like. When we consider _Brotzeit_ (see http://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Brotzeit), we see that this noun has two meanings, of which the second is that which is eaten _at Brotzeit (zur Brotzeit)_. A closer etymological exploration might well find out that _Mittag _and _Abend_ used to have that second meaning too, i.e. that which is eaten at a particular time of day.


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## Gernot Back

dubitans said:


> _Ich abendesse_ is not possible.


But what about  

_Ich esse abend_?​ 
The participle _abend*ge*gessen_ suggests that it is a separable verb. What about the spelling if the prefix _abend _is separated completely in a present-tense or preterite main clause? Should we capitalize _Abend _in that case, as we did it with _*r*adfahren, _but _ich fahre *R*ad_ before the spelling reform? 

I think we should stick to _*zu* Abend essen_. Then we don't have all these problems because everybody can recognize _zu Abend_ as a temporal adverbial!


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## dubitans

With all due respect, have you read my post #11 and also followed the link? *Only infinitive & past participle* (plus present participle in my humble opinion).
I don't think it's up to "us" to stick to "_*zu* Abend essen". _Millions of people use those forms, certainly in Austria and, as evidenced by this discussion, far beyond.


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## Gernot Back

dubitans said:


> With all due respect, have you read my post #11 and also followed the link? *Only infinitive & past participle* (plus present participle in my humble opinion).


Yes I did follow that link and I didn't find any information that the usage of this verb is restricted to infinite forms.

However, if this is the case with _mittagessen _and _abendessen_, these verbs would fall into the rare category of *defective verbs*.
The usage of these verbs would be just as limited as in the case of the Dutch compound verb for _riding a bicycle_.


			
				glottopedia.org said:
			
		

> Dutch has a class of compound verbs (such as _wielrennen_ (lit. wheelrun) 'bicycling') of which only the infinitive (_wielrennen_) and the past participle (_gewielrend_) are used, while other inflected forms are hardly used (*_hij wielrent_ or *_hij rent wiel_ 'he is bicycling') . These compound verbs have a defective paradigm.


 http://www.glottopedia.org/index.php/Defective_paradigm


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## dubitans

Following said link, you find "Perfektbildung mit »hat«; nur im Infinitiv und 2. Partizip".


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## Hamlet2508

Gernot Back said:


> However, if this is the case with _mittagessen _and _abendessen_, these verbs would fall into the rare category of *defective verbs*.
> *The usage of these verbs would be just as limited* as in the case of the Dutch compound verb for _riding a bicycle_.



Can't say for the Dutch verb , but I have to disagree with the limited usage of abendessen/frühstücken as I have heard natives use these verbs far too often for that.


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## Gernot Back

We are not talking about _frühstücken _here. That exists in all forms, no doubt!
But have you ever heard someone say 

_Ich esse abend/Abend? _​ 
... instead of 

_Ich esse *zu* Abend?_​


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## ABBA Stanza

dubitans said:


> With all due respect, have you read my post #11 and also followed the link? *Only infinitive & past participle* (plus present participle in my humble opinion).
> I don't think it's up to "us" to stick to "_*zu* Abend essen". _Millions of people use those forms, certainly in Austria and, as evidenced by this discussion, far beyond.


What about infinitive clauses? For example, does _"Wir haben vor, heute um 18 Uhr abend*zu*essen"_ also work?

Cheers
Abba


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## dubitans

Yes, it does. But again, let's wait for non-Austrian voices.


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## Liam Lew's

I agree with dubitans. "Wir haben vor, heute um 18 Uhr abendzuessen" works though I'm more familiar with "zu Abend zu essen".


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## berndf

Gernot Back said:


> However, if this is the case with _mittagessen _and _abendessen_, these verbs would fall into the rare category of *defective verbs*.


Yes, indeed. That is what Duden says. Do you have any problems with that? Defective verbs are not exactly a new phenomenon.


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## dubitans

Liam Lew's said:


> "Wir haben vor, heute um 18 Uhr abendzuessen" works though I'm more familiar with "zu Abend zu essen".


_Zu Abend zu essen _sounds more formal. I hope I'm not overdoing this now when I say that when it's about having _Abendessen/Abendbrot_ at home, I will likely say "Wir haben vor, heute um 18 Uhr abendzuessen" while I'd probably say "Wir haben vor, um 20 Uhr im Chez François zu Abend zu essen".


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## Gernot Back

berndf said:


> Yes, indeed. That is what Duden says. Do you have any problems with that? Defective verbs are not exactly a new phenomenon.


They are a very rare phenomenon, especially in German. In German, I can't think of any defective verb apart from avalent meterological verbs like (*_ich regne_, _*du regnest_, _*er_, *_sie_ _*es* regnet_, etc.). Here certain grammatical persons (all of them except the third person singular) do not exist.

 If _abendessen _and _mittagessen _are defective verbs, too, this is a totally new case.

I consider these "verbs" substandard, to put it mildly. Canoo.net does not list them, neither do my old Wahrig nor my old Duden from before the spelling reform of 1996 ; only my newest Duden (bought in 2000) lists them. This Duden is 50% more voluminous than its predecessors because it incorporates virtually every slang word.

The question is also: If Duden does list _abendessen _and _mittagessen _as defective verbs, why doesn't it also do so with *_handschreiben? _There is a participle _handgeschreiben, _but instead Duden categorizes this word as an adjective.

If you say
_Ich habe gestern schon um fünf Uhr abendgegessen._​
instead of
_Ich habe gestern schon um fünf Uhr *zu Abend* gegessen._​
wouldn't you also say
_Den Brief habe ich handgeschrieben,
Die Strümpfe habe ich (selbst) handgestrickt._​
instead of
_Den Brief habe ich von Hand/mit der Hand geschrieben,
Die Strümpfe habe ich (selbst) von Hand/mit der Hand gestrickt._​???

What about the verbs *_handtreiben _and *_mundblasen _as defective paradigms with the participles _handgetrieben_ and _mundgeblasen_ as their only existing representatives, does that sound too kinky?


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## berndf

Gernot Back said:


> I consider these "verbs" substandard, to put it mildly.


From your perspective as a German maybe. But that is not relevant in this case because it is an Austrian German and not a German German verb and Duden marks it very clearly as such.


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## dubitans

Gernot Back said:


> I consider these "verbs" substandard, to put it mildly.


To Austrian ears, they don't sound substandard. And then, what is _substandard_? Do you use the word with a sociolectal connotation? Or do you use it with a regiolectal connotation? Of a lesser degree of formality, yes (see #22).

What would you call them unless you put it mildly?


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## ABBA Stanza

Gernot Back said:


> They are a very rare phenomenon, especially in German. In German, I can't think of any defective verb apart from avalent meterological verbs like (*_ich regne_, _*du regnest_, _*er_, *_sie_ _*es* regnet_, etc.).


What about _wahrhaben_ for example? I remember looking that one up in the dictionary once and it said something like "only in conjunction with the phrase _etw. nicht wahrhaben wollen_". Now, if that isn't restrictive, then I don't know what is! 



Gernot Back said:


> The question is also: If Duden does list _abendessen _and _mittagessen _as defective verbs, why doesn't it also do so with *_handschreiben? _There is a participle _handgeschreiben, _but instead Duden categorizes this word as an adjective.


Probably (says he, guessing ) because _handgeschrieben_ isn't directly derived from a (non-existent!) verb _handschreiben,_ but instead from a combination of the noun _Hand_ plus the past participle of the verb _schreiben_?

Cheers
Abba


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## Gernot Back

ABBA Stanza said:


> What about _wahrhaben_ for example? I remember looking that one up in the dictionary once and it said something like "only in conjunction with the phrase _etw. nicht wahrhaben wollen_". Now, if that isn't restrictive, then I don't know what is!


indeed wahrhaben is even listed in canoo.net as only existing in the infinitive and the future-1 tenses:
http://www.canoo.net/inflection/wahrhaben:V:haben

I guess, it would indeed make a lot more sense to write _*wahr haben*_ separately and as we learn from Google: most people already do so. The question is, whether this is really against any rule.



			
				Amtliche Regelung said:
			
		

> 2.2Es wird zusammengeschrieben, wenn der adjektivische Bestandteil zusammen mit dem verbalen Bestandteil eine neue, idiomatisierte Gesamtbedeutung bildet, die nicht                               auf der Basis der Bedeutungen der einzelnen Teile bestimmt werden kann, zum Beispiel:
> _krankschreiben, freisprechen, (sich) kranklachen; festnageln _(= festlegen),_ heimlichtun _(=  geheimnisvoll tun), _kaltstellen _([politisch] ausschalten), _kürzertreten                            einschränken),  richtigstellen (= berichtigen), schwerfallen (= Mühe  verursachen),   heiligsprechen
> 
> E5:Lässt sich in einzelnen Fällen keine klare Entscheidung darüber treffen, ob eine idiomatisierte Gesamtbedeutung vorliegt, *so bleibt es dem Schreibenden überlassen, getrennt oder zusammenzuschreiben*.​_​_
> _


_
 bold text formatting by Gernot Back.
http://www.canoo.net/services/GermanSpelling/Amtlich/GetrZusammen/pgf33-35.html#pgf34-2-2_


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## Hamlet2508

dubitans said:


> To Austrian ears, they don't sound substandard.



As dubitans has pointed out , they might be considered a tad informal. Calling them substandard is definitely not putting it mildly.


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## Gernot Back

Hamlet2508 said:


> Calling them substandard is definitely not putting it mildly.


I might simply call verb forms like _mittagessen _and _abendessen _*wrong*, which is far less mild a way to put it!


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## dubitans

Millions of native speakers, I daresay, consider those verbs "right", you consider them "wrong".

PS
In the English language forum here, Brits would never call AmE "wrong", neither would Americans call BrE "wrong" (or any other variety of the language).


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## ABBA Stanza

Hamlet2508 said:


> As dubitans has pointed out , they might be considered a tad informal. Calling them substandard is definitely not putting it mildly.


I assume that Gernot was referring to them as "substandard" only from a grammatical point-of-view and simply because not all conjugations are supported, not because their usage (within their restricted scope) is in any way invalid. At least that's the way I interpreted it. 



Gernot Back said:


> I might simply call verb forms like _mittagessen _and _abendessen _*wrong*


But then again, you wouldn't, of course. 

Cheers
Abba


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## berndf

Guys, please!

Again, those are *Austrian* and *not German* verbs. In Austria they are *not* sub-standard, they are *not* wrong and they are *not* colloquial.


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## ABBA Stanza

berndf said:


> Again, those are *Austrian* and *not German* verbs. In Austria they are *not* sub-standard, they are *not* wrong and they are *not* colloquial.


They are syntactically incomplete (i.e., not fully-fledged), though, if they can indeed only be used in the infinitive and past participle forms as Duden suggests.

Also, what would you say to using these verbs in Germany? For example, if I were to get into the office at (say) 1 pm and ask my German colleagues _"Habt ihr schon mittaggegessen?"_, is there a good chance that no-one would bat an eyelid? Or, on the other hand, would it stand out like a sore thumb as being an Austrian formulation (even to native speakers who aren't "into" languages)?

Cheers
Abba


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## Arukami

ABBA Stanza said:


> For example, if I were to get into the office at (say) 1 pm and ask my German colleagues _"Habt ihr schon mittaggegessen?"_, is there a good chance that no-one would bat an eyelid?



As I've said before, I've heard this too often here in Germany too. I'm not sure whether this is a bit of a regional thing, or whether it's a rather "new" trend, but people definitely use it over here and no one ever complained about it.


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## manfy

What it comes down to, I guess, is that grammar rules and dictionaries cannot really prescribe a language, but merely describe its use. (e.g. for the purpose of making the language simpler to learn and in order to slowly increase the level of standardization within a large geographic region)
The obvious proof for this assumption is that even today you can see a vivid use of multiple dialects (and the countless regional variations thereof) all over the German speaking region. And this is hundreds of years after the first attempts to introduce a standardized German and, depending on the region, 2-5 centuries after the implementation of compulsory education! 



ABBA Stanza said:


> They are syntactically incomplete (i.e., not fully-fledged), though, if they can indeed only be used in the infinitive and past participle forms as Duden suggests.


Yes, but this is a standard feature of the German language and it is neither overly peculiar nor is it limited to the Austrian German in any way. 
canoo.net has a good and long description on compounding of words (here is the sub-section on noun-verb compounds).
Even though canoo calls noun-verb compounds 'rare', I'd say this only refers to the standardized compounds that eventually find their way into dictionaries (e.g. canoo shows less than 200 entries). Personally, I have no scruples to create such compounds whenever it serves the intended purpose!

--------
PS: After poking around on the internet I've come to the conclusion that the verb 'mittagessen' might have a bit of a special status after all.
As a pure compound verb from Mittagessen + essen it should be 'mittagessenessen'. Of course, every native speaker knows that this sounds nonsensical, hence I assume that 'essen' was simply dropped from the noun. This creates a similarity to a verb derived from a noun by means of conversion (see here) and as such it feels idiomatic and not out of place.
From a language evolution point of view this seems logical and not really far-fetched -- in my opinion!

compare similar activities like:
Frühstück -> frühstücken
Vesper -> vespern
Brotzeit -> brotzeiten (even though, 'Brotzeit machen' is more common)
Jause -> jausnen

PPS: For those of you who have difficulties with some of these regional terms, here is an interesting Duden 3 minute podcast on Brotzeit/Vesper/Jause and other peculiar regional differences.


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## berndf

ABBA Stanza said:


> They are syntactically incomplete (i.e., not fully-fledged), though, if they can indeed only be used in the infinitive and past participle forms as Duden suggests.
> 
> Also, what would you say to using these verbs in Germany? For example, if I were to get into the office at (say) 1 pm and ask my German colleagues _"Habt ihr schon mittaggegessen?"_, is there a good chance that no-one would bat an eyelid? Or, on the other hand, would it stand out like a sore thumb as being an Austrian formulation (even to native speakers who aren't "into" languages)?
> 
> Cheers
> Abba


I personally use sentences like
_Ich habe noch nicht mittaggegessen
Ich will noch eben frühstücken
Ich gehe abendessen
_​and don't consider them colloquial or sub-standard. For some reason I do not understand myself I am hesitant about _Ich habe noch nicht abendgegessen_ while _Ich habe noch nicht mittaggegessen _and _Ich gehe abendessen__ both _sound perfectly natural to me. I am probably not a good reference because I've been married to an Austrian for 27 years and my own usage has a lot of Austrian influence. I _think _I had been using these verbs already before I met my wife but I can't be sure.


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## Gernot Back

manfy said:


> Of course, every native speaker knows that this sounds nonsensical, hence I assume that 'essen' was simply dropped from the noun.


So that would be some kind of haplology, to aviod syllable repetition as in _Wanderin _and _Zauberin _instead of *_Wandererin _and *_Zaubererin_, _Spezifität _instead of *_Spezifizität_,

_Ich habe keine Lust, schon um fünf Uhr abendzuessen_​ 
instead of

_Ich habe keine Lust, schon um fünf Uhr zu Abend zu essen_,

​_Ich muss jetzt mittagessen_​ 
instead of

_Ich muss jetzt Mittagessen essen_​ 
I don't quite think, however, that every native speaker perceives this repetition as nonsensical.

The same people that say 

_Ich habe mittaggegessen._​
instead of 

_Ich habe zu Mittag gegessen._​ 
... are often the ones that say

_Ich habe Fernsehen gesehen_​ 
instead of

_Ich habe ferngesehen._​


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## berndf

Gernot Back said:


> The same people that say_Ich habe mittaggegessen._​
> instead of_Ich habe zu Mittag gegessen._​
> ... are often the ones that say_Ich habe Fernsehen gesehen_​
> instead of_Ich habe ferngesehen._​


For reasons of symmetry, shouldn't it be exactly the other way round? Someone who uses _mittagessen _as a verb would be more inclined to use_ fernsehen_ as a verb. By the way, I can't follow your judgemental icons at all. The fact that _fernsehen_ exists as a verb does not render _Fernsehen sehn_ (or _Fernsehen schauen_ for that matter) wrong.

*Moderator note: Discussion about fernsehen vs. Fernsehen sehen/schauen/gucken moved to new thread.*


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## manfy

Gernot Back said:


> _Ich habe Fernsehen gesehen_​
> instead of_Ich habe ferngesehen._​


Yes, this is an excellent example and probably directly comparable to 'Mittagessen essen' (whether in compound verb form or as a verb phrase) versus 'zu Mittag essen' or 'mittagessen'.



Gernot Back said:


> I don't quite think, however, that every native speaker perceives this repetition as nonsensical.


'Nonsensical' is maybe the wrong word, but I'd say that probably every native speaker recognizes immediate word repetition as somehow odd. In German immediate word repetition is not illegal and in certain cases it is practically unavoidable and yet, it usually feels wrong (if not grammatically then stylistically). In spoken language it happened to me several times that I somehow talked myself into a corner where I was forced to make very odd style choices to be able to make some sense with the overall statement in the end!


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