# Slovene : Dual verbal forms



## J.F. de TROYES

The Wikipedia article on Slovene grammar points out that this language uses dual forms and Slovene verbs indicates  dual endings for the present tense. Could you confirm that this number is still current, especially for verbal forms. If so , is it compulsory when the subject is dual or may it be replaced by plural forms ?

The points seems to me interesting , because ( as far as I know ) it's the only modern I.E. language where the dual is keeping up.

Thanks so much.


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## Panceltic

Hello,

I can confirm that the dual number is very much alive and kicking!  It is used for verbs as well as nouns, pronouns, adjectives etc.
It cannot be replaced by plural, except in dialects which have completely lost the dual (there are some).

Regards

EDIT: The dual is also still present in the Sorbian language (langue sorabe)


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## ahvalj

The Dual is also alive in the western Samogitian (and some western Aukstaitian) dialects of Lithuanian.


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## J.F. de TROYES

Thanks a lot for your information. Could you please add a small example  with a subject (pronoun or name)  and a verb -with or without an object- ?


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## ahvalj

J.F. de TROYES said:


> Thanks a lot for your information. Could you please add a small example  with a subject (pronoun or name)  and a verb -with or without an object- ?


If this question also pertains to my post, here is the Samogitian Wiki page with the paradigms: Žemaitiu kalba - Wikipedia The Dual is called _dvėskaita_. I'll try to find sentence examples tonight.


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## ahvalj

_Eisiva namo_ "we two will go home" (_Ambrazas V, Geniušienė E, Girdenis A… · 2006 · Lithuanian grammar: _273).
_Gerbė ir mylėjo jis abudu Butkiu_ "he esteemed and loved both Butkuses" (ibidem: 102).
_O dvi marti, melždami karves gretimuose kiemuose, plūdo viena antrą_ "while milking cows in the adjacent yards, the two daughters-in-law cursed each other" (ibidem: 102).

These are phrases in Standard Lithuanian: the Dual was still used in the 19th century.


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## Panceltic

An example of Slovenian dual (_dvojina_) - from a popular song _Nebotičnik_ ('the skyscraper')

Na Nebotičnik sva odšla,
bliže sonca in modrega neba,
pozabiva, da premajhna za dva
in žalostna sobica je najina.

_We [two] have gone to the skyscraper,
closer to the sun and the blue sky,
let's forget [us two] that too small for two people
and sad is our [of the two of us] room._


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## J.F. de TROYES

Your information is very helpful , as I am doing  research into verbal morphology ( as an amateur ) and I did'nt know anything about dual in Slavic languages. Hvala nepa, Panceltic, for your fine example .  Болшое спасибо, Ahvalj, for your input about Lithuanian and dialects.


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## modric

In Slovenian, dual is compulsory and cannot be replaced by plural in any circumstances, as far as I know.

It is used in present, past and future and affects the endings of the verbs, adjectives and nouns. The dual is NOT fading and is not perceived old fashioned in any way...It gives a more intimate feel ("me and you" rather than "us").


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## J.F. de TROYES

Thanks a lot for your comment, Modric. It's always interesting to read a native's opinion.


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## Panceltic

modric said:


> In Slovenian, dual is compulsory and cannot be replaced by plural in any circumstances, as far as I know.



The curious thing in Slovenian is that the things which naturally come in pairs (twins, parents, eyes, ears, legs, arms ...) are referred to in plural!


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## Mishe

modric said:


> The dual is NOT fading ...



This is debatable. It is certainly not on the verge of extinction, but in colloquial language not all dual forms are used as strictly and consistently as they _should _according to the (written) standard. This is especially true for dual feminine nouns (_dve ženske_ instead of _dve ženski_) and even more for dual neuter nouns (_dva jajca_ instead of _dve jajci_). In such cases dual forms are often replaced by plural forms in the colloquial spoken language. Moreover, as it was already mentioned, there are some dialects, where plural is already extinct or is very truncated. 

So to be honest, although it is true that dual is alive, it is frequently replaced by plural in everyday speech. It is precisely because of this why "dvojina" is one of the hottest linguistic topics here in Slovenia. Many people are sensitive about it, because they perceive it as the most special feature of Slovenian language. Preserving dual is something many Slovenians feel really strongly about.


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## Panceltic

Mishe said:


> This is especially true for dual feminine nouns (_dve ženske_ instead of _dve ženski_) and even more for dual neuter nouns (_dva jajca_ instead of _dve jajci_). In such cases dual forms are often replaced by plural forms in the colloquial spoken language. Moreover, as it was already mentioned, there are some dialects, where plural is already extinct or is very truncated.



This is true for nouns, but as the OP asked about verb forms, I think they are certainly not fading. Personally, I use "dve ženske" but I always say "dve ženske *sta*", never "so". About "dva jajca", it is as dual as can be, the problem here is the disappearance of the neuter gender. "Eno jajce" becomes "en jajc" which is perceived as masculine, so the dual "correctly" becomes "dva jajca". In plural, however, it is still "tri jajca" and not "trije jajci".

As mentioned previously, some dialects have lost the dual completely, using forms like "midva smo" or even "mi smo" for referring to "us two".


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## Mishe

Panceltic said:


> This is true for nouns, but as the OP asked about verb forms, I think they are certainly not fading. Personally, I use "dve ženske" but I always say "dve ženske *sta*", never "so". About "dva jajca", it is as dual as can be, the problem here is the disappearance of the neuter gender. "Eno jajce" becomes "en jajc" which is perceived as masculine, so the dual "correctly" becomes "dva jajca". In plural, however, it is still "tri jajca" and not "trije jajci".
> 
> As mentioned previously, some dialects have lost the dual completely, using forms like "midva smo" or even "mi smo" for referring to "us two".



You are pretty much talking about dialects of central Slovenia here. Neuter gender is disappearing in central Slovenia and Gorenjska and that's it, so I'm not sure "dve jajci" is connected with that. However, I'm pretty sure that in dialects of Primorska (for instance) people say "dva jajca", while completely preserving the nauter gender and heavily omitting dual. 

Dual verb forms (the same as in standard Slovenian) are (again) completely preserved in all central dialects - Gorenjska, Dolenjska, partly Nortanjska and Koroška. Dialects of the North-East use *sma* instead of sva, for example, which is a bit closer morphologically to the plural form *smo*. Not trying to nitpick, only to say that the situation is very complex. And I think that dual is not going to die out any time soon, anyway.


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## Panceltic

Yes, you are right. I always get a bit carried away and focus on (my native) central variant of language.


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