# scherpe klanken



## CarlitosMS

Hello everybody

I would like to know the meaning of these idiom referring to the phonological characteristics of some dialects, especially the Brabant ones.

Context: Ik vind Brabants een scherp dialect wegens de klanken, vooral klinkers.

Tot dan!

Carlos


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## NewtonCircus

Dag Carlitos

Since the sentence includes "_wegens de klanken"_, I think you have to take this literally here. 
The literal meaning of scherp here is _high pitch_. 

The figurative meaning of _scherp_ in relation to remarks, comments, or words is comparable to “sharp” in English: 
- _Een scherpe opmerking =_ a sharp remark.
_- Scherp op de snede = _on the edge of what is tolerable or acceptable.

Groetjes Herman


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## HKK

NewtonCircus said:


> The literal meaning of scherp here is _high pitch_.



Have to say I disagree with that. Most sharp sounds are high-pitched, but not necessarily. And not all high-pitched sounds are sharp. There is a link of course.

I would like to hypothesize that in phonetics, closed or nasal vowels will be described as _scherp_. But this is hardly a Dutch thing; I think the same kinds of sound would be described as "sharp" in English.

Also, you would greet with "Tot dan" if you've made an appointment at a specific time: "Tot op het concert!" "Tot dan!". If not, you can go more generally for "Tot later!" or just "Dag"


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## NewtonCircus

Dag HKK 



HKK said:


> Also, you would greet with "Tot dan" if you've made an appointment at a specific time: "Tot op het concert!" "Tot dan!". If not, you can go more generally for "Tot later!" or just "Dag"



I am afraid that you have to explain this.

Groetjes Herman


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## HKK

Carlos ended his message with "Tot dan!". This is a way to say "Bye" in some areas of our language sphere including my own. But you can't use it like Carlos did, because it refers to a _specific _"dan" or moment in time when you will see the other person again. Since he mentioned no specific time when he would be back, the greeting is used incorrectly  This is not to nitpick, but I know that on this forum, people usually appreciate or at least tolerate getting their mistakes pointed out to them.


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## CarlitosMS

HKK said:


> Carlos ended his message with "Tot dan!". This is a way to say "Bye" in some areas of our language sphere including my own. But you can't use it like Carlos did, because it refers to a _specific _"dan" or moment in time when you will see the other person again. Since he mentioned no specific time when he would be back, the greeting is used incorrectly  This is not to nitpick, but I know that on this forum, people usually appreciate or at least tolerate getting their mistakes pointed out to them.



Bedankt voor de tip! Dat wist ik niet!


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## NewtonCircus

HKK said:


> Carlos ended his message with "Tot dan!"


Oh, I didn't see this and was breaking my head trying to figure out how this could be related to the actual question. 

About the question itself, I actually don't understand why the author of this sentence thinks the _Brabant _accent is _scherp. _In my opinion _een scherp geluid_ is something like _het tjilpen van een huismus_. Do the _Leuvenaars_ really sound like house sparrows? . Got to pay attention the next time I visit this place.

Groetjes Herman


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## HKK

NewtonCircus said:


> Oh, I didn't see this and was breaking my head trying to figure out how this could be related to the actual question.
> 
> About the question itself, I actually don't understand why the author of this sentence thinks the _Brabant _accent is _scherp. _In my opinion _een scherp geluid_ is something like _het tjilpen van een huismus_. Do the _Leuvenaars_ really sound like house sparrows? .


Pistols at dawn!!  No, as I mentioned before, I understand "scherpe klanken" differently when referring to vowel quality. Of course it's a very vague and non-linguistic term, but maybe my fellow Belgian forumites will concur.


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## Peterdg

De eerste belangrijke vraag die we hier moeten stellen is: gaat het over Vlaams Brabant of Nederlands Brabant? Die twee dialecten hebben niet veel met mekaar te maken, toch niet qua uitspraak.

Indien het over Vlaams Brabant gaat, dan kan ik enkel denken aan de uitspraak van de "i" en de "u" die in Vlaams Brabant erg hard/scherp klinken (dwz. veel verder verwijderd van de schwa dan bv. in het West Vlaams). Sorry voor de erg onwetenschappelijke formulering.


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## CarlitosMS

Peterdg said:


> De eerste belangrijke vraag die we hier moeten stellen is: gaat het over Vlaams Brabant of Nederlands Brabant? Die twee dialecten hebben niet veel met mekaar te maken, toch niet qua uitspraak.
> 
> Indien het over Vlaams Brabant gaat, dan kan ik enkel denken aan de uitspraak van de "i" en de "u" die in Vlaams Brabant erg hard/scherp klinken (dwz. veel verder verwijderd van de schwa dan bv. in het West Vlaams). Sorry voor de erg onwetenschappelijke formulering.



Over Vlaams-Brabant en provincie Antwerpen.


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## CarlitosMS

Sorry if I didn't explain the concept correctly, but my Dutch is not perfect, I really meant "scherpe klinkers".


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## Red Arrow

Peterdg said:


> De eerste belangrijke vraag die we hier moeten stellen is: gaat het over Vlaams Brabant of Nederlands Brabant? Die twee dialecten hebben niet veel met mekaar te maken, toch niet qua uitspraak.


Het taaltje van Nederlands Brabant lijkt nochtans sprekend op hoe mijn Kempense familie praat, vind ik. Ik vind ook dat plat Vlaams Brabants meer op plat Nederlands Brabants lijkt dan op Limburgs.

"scherpe klanken" kan volgens mij eender wat zijn. Hier klinkt in het dialect "mens" als [mɪns] en "min" als [min]. Misschien is het dat.


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