# בן-נון - Bin vs. Ben



## rushalaim

I don't know, do my question relate to linguistics, but:

1) why *הֹושֵׁעַ בִּן־נֽוּן* is written as _Arabic "bin"_ not _Hebrew "ben"_?
2) why those 11 men in Numbers 13 have _"ben"_, but the only he has _"bin"_?
3) why his father's name in 1 Chronicles 7:27 is written as _"Non"_ but not _"Nun"_ as usual, is it any mistake?  *נֹון בְּנֹו יְהֹושֻׁעַ בְּנֹֽו*
4) why Septuagint spells his father's name as _"Naun"_?  *Ναυη *Do we see here three spelling tradition: early _Hebrew _as _"Nun"_, late as _"Non"_, and Septuagint (Jewish translation into Greek) as _"Naun"_?


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## Drink

1. Because it was pronounced as one word and the two nuns merged into one geminated nun, as if it were בִּנּוּן. Segol rarely occurs before unstressed geminates, and so it became chiriq.
2. See above.
3. I don't know. There are many names that have multiple similar variants. Even יצחק אבינו has a spelling variant: יִשְׂחָק!
4. Ναυη is not "Naun", but "Nauē", which in Later Greek is pronounced "Navi". See the Wikipedia article on the Greek letter eta. I don't know why the name got so corrupted.


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## origumi

There's also אָגוּר בִּן יָקֶה (Proverbs 30:1) - maybe it demonstrates an alternative pronunciation of "ben" as "bin", either dialectical or for some other reason.




Drink said:


> 1. Because it was pronounced as one word and the two nuns merged into one geminated nun, as if it were בִּנּוּן. Segol rarely occurs before unstressed geminates, and so it became chiriq.


This is one of several possible explanations.

Nachmanides הרמב"ן for Exodus 33:11 suggests that it's indeed one word, related to בינה = wisdom.

Hachatam Sofer החת"ם סופר suggests that adding "i" to "bin" is related to the name change Hoshea` -> Yehoshua` for this person.

Haradak הרד"ק for Joshua 1:1 suggests that this is a normal vowel change when "ben" is attached to the following word. See for example וְהָיָה אִם בִּן הַכּוֹת הָרָשָׁע (Deuteronomy 25:2).


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## rushalaim

> Hachatam Sofer החת"ם סופר suggests that adding "i" to "bin" is related to the name change Hoshea` -> Yehoshua` for this person.


Numbers 13:8 has a name without any _Yud_-letter *הֹושֵׁעַ בִּן־נֽוּן*



origumi said:


> Haradak הרד"ק for Joshua 1:1 suggests that this is a normal vowel change when "ben" is attached to the following word. See for example וְהָיָה אִם בִּן הַכּוֹת הָרָשָׁע (Deuteronomy 25:2).


Numbers 13 Why here all 11 men with _"Ben"_ not _"Bin"_ like the only Hoshea?


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## rushalaim

Drink said:


> Ναυη is not "Naun", but "Nauē", which in Later Greek is pronounced "Navi". See the Wikipedia article on the Greek letter eta. I don't know why the name got so corrupted.


May I suggest, that _Greek_'s "*Ναυη*" looks like _Arabic_, and that "bin" is also _Arabic_, maybe Hoshea had any _Arabian_ origins, that's why his name looks like _Arabic_?


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## utopia

BIN instead of BEN is attested in cases that the next word is of one syllable or is of a penultimate stress:

BIN REGA (בן רגע), BIN LAILA (בן לילה).

That's the main reason for this change.

Now as for the different versions of the name NUN, look, this name seems to be of an Egyptian origin. NUN is a name of an Egyptian deity.


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## rushalaim

utopia said:


> BIN instead of BEN is attested in cases that the next word is of one syllable or is of a penultimate stress:
> 
> BIN REGA (בן רגע), BIN LAILA (בן לילה).
> 
> That's the main reason for this change.
> 
> Now as for the different versions of the name NUN, look, this name seems to be of an Egyptian origin. NUN is a name of an Egyptian deity.


Thanks! It helps! Wiki says about _Nun_-god as _"nwn"_[_naun_]. And _"bin"_ has being explained. Thanks again!


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## Haskol

I understood the name נון to be connected to the Aramaic נונא "fish". Same with the letter נון. Any known connection between the Egyptian deity and the Aramaic word?


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## rushalaim

_Hebrew_ *בֵּן*-*בָּנִים* and *בַּת*-*בָּנוֹת*
Why *בֵּן* but not *בַּן* ?
_Aramaic_ uses *בַּר*-*בְּנִין* and *בַּרְת*-*בְּנוֹת*


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## Haskol

The Hebrew "ben" is descended from the earlier "bin", just as the form is in Arabic, so it wouldn't have become an "a" vowel. The real question for me is how did the Aramaic form come to be, since it seems to be the exception in the Semitic family. 

The Afroasiatic etymology database claims that both forms come from Proto-Afroasiatic, and seem to have had slightly different meanings. 
See here: Afroasiatic etymology : Query result


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## rushalaim

Haskol said:


> The Hebrew "ben" is descended from the earlier "bin", just as the form is in Arabic, so it wouldn't have become an "a" vowel. The real question for me is how did the Aramaic form come to be, since it seems to be the exception in the Semitic family.
> 
> The Afroasiatic etymology database claims that both forms come from Proto-Afroasiatic, and seem to have had slightly different meanings.
> See here: Afroasiatic etymology : Query result


I saw the form *בֶּן* in Torah quite often.
Sorry, I don't understand, why we say it now _"ben"_, but the same _"a"_ is in *בָּנִים*-*בָּנוֹת*


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## Drink

For comparison:

Proto-Semitic:
son: _*b(i)n-_
sons: _*banū-_/_*banī-_
daughter: _*bint-_
daughters: _*banāt-_

Hebrew:
son: בֵּן, בֶּן־, בְּנוֹ, בִּנְךָ
sons: בָּנִים, בְּנֵי־
daughter: בַּת, בִּתּוֹ
daughters: בָּנוֹת, בְּנוֹת־

Aramaic:
son: בַּר, בְּרָא
sons: בְּנִין, בְּנֵי־, בְּנַיָּא
daughter: בַּת, בַּרְתָּא
daughters: בְּנָן, בְּנָת־, בְּנָתָא

Arabic:
son: ابْن _(i)bn_
sons: بَنُون/بَنِين _banūn_/_banīn_
daughter: بِنْت _bint_
daughters: بَنَات _banāt_

The vowel difference between the singular and plural forms is attested in most Semitic languages and is not unique to Hebrew. It is common for Semitic nouns to have different singular and plural stems, so this is not surprising at all. In Aramaic, the נ changed to ר in the singular, because of the lack of preceding vowel (compare תְּרֵין for שְׁנַיִם). The vowel in בַּר changed to "a", because in Aramaic, ר is treated as a guttural and attracts a-vowels in place of i/e (compare עַבְ*דָּ*א/עֲבֵ*ד* for Hebrew עֶבֶ*ד*, but גַּבְ*רָ*א/גְּבַ*ר* for Hebrew גֶּבֶ*ר* and אַרְ*עָ*א/אֲרַ*ע* for Hebrew אֶרֶ*ץ*).


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## rushalaim

Drink said:


> The vowel difference between the singular and plural forms is attested in most Semitic languages and is not unique to Hebrew. It is common for Semitic nouns to have different singular and plural stems, so this is not surprising at all. In Aramaic, the נ changed to ר in the singular, because of the lack of preceding vowel (compare תְּרֵין for שְׁנַיִם). The vowel in בַּר changed to "a", because in Aramaic, ר is treated as a guttural and attracts a-vowels in place of i/e (compare עַבְ*דָּ*א/עֲבֵ*ד* for Hebrew עֶבֶ*ד*, but גַּבְ*רָ*א/גְּבַ*ר* for Hebrew גֶּבֶ*ר* and אַרְ*עָ*א/אֲרַ*ע* for Hebrew אֶרֶ*ץ*).


What a beautiful language is _Aramaic_!
1. <<This question and replies to it have been moved into a separate thread.>>
2. I can see in Pentateuch sometimes the word is vocalized with _Hiriq_ sometimes with _Seghol_. May I assume, that _"bin"_ with _Hiriq_ is used only with suffix, but _"ben"_ with _Seghol_ without any suffix.


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## amikama

Hi everyone,

This is a gentle reminder that the topic of this thread is the pronunciation of בן in יהושע בן-נון. Please try to stick to this topic.

If you have questions that are off-topic to this thread, please open a new thread in the appropriate forum (if it's about Hebrew, ask it here. If it's about Aramaic or other language, ask it in the OL or EHL forums, where appropriate). 

Thank you for your cooperation,

amikama
moderator


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## rushalaim

Do you think *בִנְךָ* is correct? _Hiriq_ because of _Shwah_. But we say *בְּנוֹ* or *בְּנַהּ* or *בְּנִי*
And *בִתֶּךָ* is also _Hiriq _before _Shwah_. But the word was originally as *בַנְתְּ* , thus it must be *בְּנַתְּךָ* ?


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