# la bomba, mi navio (pronunciation)



## cadarika

there's a lot of information on the internet that claims that [β] is how <b> and <v> are pronounced unless it's phrase-initially or if it comes after <m>.
this implies that <la bomba> is read [la βomba] and <mi navio> is read [mi naβio].

is this really true? because seriously I can't hear [β] in spanish movies


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## steemic

I'm not sure what the question you're asking is.  
B is sometimes pronounced as a v sound in spanish (especially with words like abeja for example).  
This of course depends on the word and dialect.


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## madafe

Para mí no hay diferencia alguna. 

En su momento tal vez, pero no hoy en día.


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## inib

cadarika said:


> there's a lot of information on the internet that claims that [β] is how <b> and <v> are pronounced unless it's phrase-initially or if it comes after <m>.
> this implies that <la bomba> is read [la βomba] and <mi navio> is read [mi naβio].
> 
> is this really true? because seriously I can't hear [β] in spanish movies


I'm afraid I can't give you an anwer - sorry - but I'm participating because I like to learn about these things too. How would you think those examples sound?


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## duvija

Let me bet: yes, intervocalically it sounds as a 'beta'. (Actually, I don't like to use [β], because it's like the Greek one. In Spanish it's not a fricative but an approximant, now written as a beta with a thingy below. I always found easier to write them as a normal 'b' crossed by a horizontal little line)


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## cadarika

inib said:


> I'm afraid I can't give you an anwer - sorry - but I'm participating because I like to learn about these things too. How would you think those examples sound?


I don't know exactly, I kind of just hear a strange sound. according to duvija (thanks for your answer, it really makes sense!) this strange sound is [β̞], and I never really paid attention to it so that's probably why I can't identify it very easily


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## duvija

cadarika said:


> I don't know exactly, I kind of just hear a strange sound. according to duvija (thanks for your answer, it really makes sense!) this strange sound is [β̞], and I never really paid attention to it so that's probably why I can't identify it very easily



I agree 100% (I know it sounds 'snobish' to claim I know what you've heard, but those particular Spanish approximants are pronounced as such in the whole Spanish speaking world. There isn't even a doubt about this).


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## inib

Duvija, I was hoping you'd come to the rescue. Thanks for helping both of us.


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## levmac

http://www.uiowa.edu/~acadtech/phonetics/# is always useful for this.

Go to the Spanish flag.
Click on modo.

the "strong" b/v sound is under consonantes, oclusivas.

the "weak" b/v sound is under vocoides, espirantes


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## duvija

levmac said:


> http://www.uiowa.edu/~acadtech/phonetics/# is always useful for this.
> 
> Go to the Spanish flag.
> Click on modo.
> 
> the "strong" b/v sound is under consonantes, oclusivas.
> 
> the "weak" b/v sound is under vocoides, espirantes



Great. Do you realize that in 'lavar' and 'lobo' the mouth doesn't almost move from the shape of the first vowel to the second? (when the vowels are the same, of course). That /b/ is like a little blow, done only with the tongue inside the mouth so we barely see it. It's hard to call it a 'fricative' when there is no frication involved. 
Having said that, because in Spanish there is no word with a fricative that has another meaning than the one with an approximant, it's ok to claim that 'phonologically' is a beta. Not phonetically, but phonologically, meaning only in theory. Still, I wish they wouldn't call it so happily a fricative. (Listen to Greek /b,d,g/ to see what a fricative really is)


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## JustValeP

The difference between B and V is very easy, in fact. 
We call the B bilabial because when we pronounce it both lips touch, in the same way it happens with the M and the P. 
On the other hand, when pronouncing the V, the upper teeth touches the bottom lip, just like with the F.
I hope it helped!


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## duvija

JustValeP said:


> The difference between B and V is very easy, in fact.
> We call the B bilabial because when we pronounce it both lips touch, in the same way it happens with the M and the P.
> On the other hand, when pronouncing the V, the upper teeth touches the bottom lip, just like with the F.
> I hope it helped!



...and I hope you're kidding. That difference you mention works for languages that actually have a difference (English, among others). In Spanish, there is absolutely no difference in pronunciation. You just have to remember the spelling.


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## cadarika

duvija said:


> I agree 100% (I know it sounds 'snobish' to claim I know what you've heard, but those particular Spanish approximants are pronounced as such in the whole Spanish speaking world. There isn't even a doubt about this).


Oh, nevermind, you don't sound snobish at all ^^
and yeah betacism really seems to happen with spanish as a whole. I was listening to a calle 13's song and there's a part where rené sings "levanta"; now I can finally understand what's that thing between E and A.


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## Damnjoe

cadarika said:


> there's a lot of information on the internet that claims that [β] is how <b> and <v> are pronounced unless it's phrase-initially or if it comes after <m>.
> this implies that <la bomba> is read [la βomba] and <mi navio> is read [mi naβio].
> 
> is this really true? because seriously I can't hear [β] in spanish movies




To get back to your original question, yeah, those sounds are exactly alike in speech in Spanish whether the v or the b letter is used, in the situations you say. In Peru they say "v chica" or "b grande" to distinguish the letters when you´re spelling it. There might be some dialects in Spain that still distinguish the two sounds a little, I don´t know, but I´ve never heard it. 

But the difference between /β/ and /b/ is not a very big difference and most native English speakers can´t tell the difference, you basically say /b/ without closing your mouth all the way. It´s sometimes hard for us to hear the /β/ sound in Spanish speech because it´s really soft compared to the English version (like duvija said, your mouth doesn´t move much)

I think it´s a bigger problem when Spanish speakers speak English, because /b/ and /v/ is a minimal pair in English (in other words, "bat" and "vat" are two different words) and they have trouble pronouncing the two words differently.


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## duvija

Damnjoe said:


> I think it´s a bigger problem when Spanish speakers speak English, because /b/ and /v/ is a minimal pair in English (in other words, "bat" and "vat" are two different words) and they have trouble pronouncing the two words differently.



Right on! I had to retrain myself.

And let me add: there is no place where b/v are different from each other. There are though some places where the neutralization goes toward [v] - like Chile. It sounds cute and a good way to recognize Chilean speech.

Disclaimer: hope nobody gets upset by me saying Chilean speech is 'cute'. I just like Chileans - at least the ones I know...


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## duvija

cadarika said:


> Oh, nevermind, you don't sound snobish at all ^^
> and yeah betacism really seems to happen with spanish as a whole. I was listening to a calle 13's song and there's a part where rené sings "levanta"; now I can finally understand what's that thing between E and A.



Same softening goes for b/d/g. I just checked the spectrogram of 'abogado' (it's on the web) and I assume the guy/gal was trying its best to differentiate them. For the sound, it could perfectly be 'awaw' (maybe [aoao] if trying hard).


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## Spanish Pronunciation

Yes, the *letters B and V are pronounced exactly the same in 99,9% of Spain*.

When my dad was young, his teacher used to say that _the letter V should be pronounced as an English V or [v]_. 

According to RAE (Real Academia Española), *this is an error:* both are pronounced the same.

There are no dialects in Spain that distinguish the two sounds, but few people here and there and they are all elder people.

Teachers might make some mistakes (I include myself).

I remember when I was around 13 y.o., my Spanish teacher used to say that SÓLO must be written with a tilde when is an adverb (solo = solamente). However, nowadays it is an error (I still have to remove that tilde after writting it).

So back to the point.

*The letters B and V are pronounced in 2 different ways: /b/ and [β]*.

- /b/: in Spanish it's pronounced *a bit softer than in English.*
- [β]: to produce this sound you shouldn't close your mouth all the way. Just leave a *small separation between your lips*.

Yes, [β] and /b/ are similar and most native English speakers can´t tell the difference, or find [β] a wierd sound they can't identify because it´s very soft.

But *actually [β] sound makes you/us speak more fluently.*

This is one of the many reasons why English natives have a strong accent when they speak Spanish. And also one on the many reasons why we, Spaniards, have quite a strong accent when we speak in English.


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## duvija

Our stops are never aspirated, regardless of stress placement. And yes, we have a problem pronouncing those stops in English /b,d,g/. 
Details for "Spanish pronunciation' (is that really your name???? ). In Chile, for unknown reasons, they tend to pronounce that * as a [v], but they still don't distinguish anything. They are funny that way... Just deal with it...*


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## merquiades

duvija said:


> In Chile, for unknown reasons, they tend to pronounce that * as a [v], but they still don't distinguish anything. They are funny that way... Just deal with it...*


  So in Chile would they really pronounce Cuba [Cuva] and  Cabo [Cavo] with bilabial [v]?


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## duvija

merquiades said:


> So in Chile would they really pronounce Cuba [Cuva] and  Cabo [Cavo] with bilabilal [v]?



Yes. Not everybody and not always, but mostly yes. Let's wait for some native Chileans to explain.


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## Aviador

merquiades said:


> So in Chile would they really pronounce Cuba [Cuva] and  Cabo [Cavo] with bilabilal [v]?


Never in spontaneous speech. The closest would be an approximant, not a real labiodental fricative [v].
Realizations of both _b_ and _v_ that go between [v] and [β] don't convey any different meaning and are therefore perfect allophones for Chilean speakers (and very surely for the rest of the speakers of our language as well), so some of them will use these sounds ad lib, pretty randomly and it is not strange to hear somebody saying something similar to /Cuva/ and /cavo/, as well as to hear them saying /Cuβa/ and /cabβo/, even the same individual in different occasions. In Spanish this doesn't interfere with communication, so speakers simply don't care. It is my experience, though, that most people here are pretty consistent in their realization of both _v_ and _b_ as [β].


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## purasbabosadas

In Chicano Spanish I've heard [v] at the beginning of "barrio".


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## Spanish Pronunciation

duvija said:


> Our stops are never aspirated, regardless of stress placement. And yes, we have a problem pronouncing those stops in English /b,d,g/.
> Details for "Spanish pronunciation' (is that really your name???? ). In Chile, for unknown reasons, they tend to pronounce that * as a [v], but they still don't distinguish anything. They are funny that way... Just deal with it...*


No, it isn't!! I just created my account yesterday night and tried to change the name afterwards but I couldn't find how!! ￼￼ 
Shame on me.
My name is Blanca.

It's smth curious what you said about Chile. I didn't know that at all!


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## Dymn

purasbabosadas said:


> In Chicano Spanish I've heard [v] at the beginning of "barrio".


Under what context? In many (most? all?) aspirating varieties that's the usual pronunciation after an -s: _lo_[h v]_arrios_



Spanish Pronunciation said:


> No, it isn't!! I just created my account yesterday night and tried to change the name afterwards but I couldn't find how!! ￼￼


You can ask admins to change it. You can only change it once though.


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## purasbabosadas

Dymn said:


> Under what context? In many (most? all?) aspirating varieties that's the usual pronunciation after an -s: _lo_[h v]_arrios_


_Intervocalically.Chicanos don't aspirate since they speak Mexican Spanish(Most places in Mexico fully pronounce the "s")_


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## Spanish Pronunciation

Dymn said:


> Under what context? In many (most? all?) aspirating varieties that's the usual pronunciation after an -s: _lo_[h v]_arrios_



In the South of Spain they do that. Economy of the language.


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