# moreno (black man)



## Almighty Egg

Hello,
I'm doing subs for a film, set in the Caribbean in the 50's.
A black man walks into a bar, the barmaid says "Hola moreno".

Obviously I can't say "Hello blackie/darkie" .
What can I say?

Should I just go with "Hi handsome"?
Maybe "Hi slim", he is quite slim.

Any ideas?


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## Billbasque

Wouldn't just "Hi 'moreno' " do? Or how about "Hi my dark man..." ?


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## Almighty Egg

Well, I don't think most English speakers understand the meaning and implications of "moreno". 
In my understanding it's an affectionate nickname for a dark-skinned man.
We have no such (affectionate!) names that I know of, they all sound pejorative... 
And sorry, but "Hi my dark man..." just doesn't sound right...

I've got a hunch I'm going to have to avoid anything "dark".
Cheers!


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## Antpax

Hi,

Just a blind guess, sorry, but, could you say "hi tanned (guy)"? "Moreno" in Spanish means "tanned" appart from "dark skinned". Actually, it also means "dark haired" .

Cheers.

Ant


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## Masood

How about keeping the word 'moreno' in the translation, with the word _italicised_?

I don't think I'd be overly concerned about it being taken offensively (being _moreno _myself, I suppose).


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## Almighty Egg

Thanks for the tip...
But I'm pretty sure saying "Hi tanned guy" to a black man is equally offensive, and will create an inappropriate sensation of absurdist humour in the viewer.
I guess it's like the similar nickname "chino" for anyone with "ojos achinados". It doesn't travel. It will be perceived as racist in an English-speaking country.
Does this mean the Spanish language is more racist? Less hypocritical? Or is it simply a question of culture? Who knows.


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## lenni22

Almighty Egg said:


> We have no such (affectionate!) names that I know of, they all sound pejorative...
> 
> I've got a hunch I'm going to have to avoid anything "dark".



Then stick to one of these:



Almighty Egg said:


> Should I just go with "Hi handsome"?
> Maybe "Hi slim", he is quite slim.



I feel that "handsome" might be the friendly equivalent to "moreno", even if the guy is not overwhelmingly handsome.


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## rosario001

I don't think there's any way to translate moreno in a way in which English-speakers wouldn't get distracted by the racial connotations. I'd vote for your suggestion of "Hi handsome". It might not be a literal translation, but it conveys the spirit of the "Hola moreno".


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## uspantan

Do you want to represent the culture or "cleanse" the film of its cultural distinctives?  Personally I don't like it when films change too much from the original.  Too many people have experiences in  more than one culture and find such adaptations detract from the film.  
There are other terms in English that might work, but not give the cultural flavor, like "midnight".


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## Almighty Egg

Thanks for all your replies. I think I will just have to go with my original idea.
For those that don't know "slim" was used as a sort of affectionate nickname for a slim man. I've heard it used in other noir films... 

Oh, I'm not out to "cleanse" anything. My aim is to capture the sense of the word. "Midnight" is not a common nickname. "Slim" or "handsome", I feel are similar terms in this context, free of any other baggage, which isn't present in the original. I don't think that's cleansing...

Anyway,
Cheers!


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## mijoch

"Hi there dark one"

M.


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## uspantan

Almighty Egg said:


> Oh, I'm not out to "cleanse" anything. My aim is to capture the sense of the word. "Midnight" is not a common nickname. "Slim" or "handsome", I feel are similar terms in this context, free of any other baggage, which isn't present in the original.


No, midnight is not a common nickname.  Obviously.  So what translation theory or principle are you using as a guide?  If your boss/employer is happy with slim, then you have solved your problem.  Guessing (not much context given in the OP) that the situation is a woman working at the bar sees someone come in that she does not know, then what would that same communication situation be in your cultural context?  In the US, we'd use "hey there" for greeting someone in a neutral but friendly way.   But only you have seen the film and can tell us if the woman is in any way attracted to the man or how the scene will unfold.     The effect would be to substitute one culturally appropriate way of greeting for another, rather than translate certain words.


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## Agró

Does "brownie" sound _racist_ too?


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## Almighty Egg

uspantan said:


> So what translation theory or principle are you using as a guide?


I always try to go with this one:


uspantan said:


> to substitute one culturally appropriate way ... for another, rather than translate certain words.


I'll give a bit more context. This is a Spanish _film noir_, it's from 1963, it's set earlier... I guess the 50s... on an island in the Caribbean as far as I can tell. The film is titled "Rififí en la ciudad", by Jesus Franco: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056925/
The barmaid seems to know the man, I think she is also his landlady, she greets him in the way described, then he takes the girl he is with up to his room.
I hope that helps... sorry if I didn't provide enough context originally, it's always difficult knowing just how much to give.


uspantan said:


> If your boss/employer is happy with slim, then you have solved  your problem.


Luckily, for this job, I have no boss! 
I'm merely making English subs for the film to be shared on the internet, for free, as a (friki) hobby! (As none are available).
I just want to make a good job of it.

Also, I've come across these nicknames before and been curious about how they could be translated, it's always good to have another opinion.

Thanks all for your help.


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## Almighty Egg

Agró said:


> Does "brownie" sound _racist_ too?


I would say nowadays, yes. 
But in the context of a _film noir_, as a friendly greeting to a black man, then maybe it would work. 
To tell you the truth, I'm not sure I've seen many _film noirs_ which feature _noirs, _so I have no precedent...


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## Wisconsinite

Agró said:


> Does "brownie" sound _racist_ too?



Yes, definitely.


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## alacant

Agró said:


> Does "brownie" sound _racist_ too?



To me it sounds weird. I would go with "Hi, handsome".

Cheers, ala


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## ptak30

In GB the younger section of the Girl Guides Movement are called Brownies quite happily, but in India they call themselves Bluebirds - apparently Brownies was considered inappropriate for brown children. Calling a youngish black man "Brownie" would probably raise hackles. I would vote for a straightforward "Hi".


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## bobo25

Hi and any kind of affectionate nickname I'd say, steer clear of 'colour' references.


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## Moritzchen

I agree with Masood:



Masood said:


> How about keeping the word 'moreno' in the translation, with the word _italicised_?..


And I wouldn't even put it in italics.


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## Paul Clancy

just a thought - how about "cocoalicious"

you know play on dark chocolate and cocoa used from Caribbean.  Just a thought rather than "handsome" or "using black or dark" but still having an acceptable? term of endearment.  So my suggestion - for what it is worth would be "cocoalicious" - as cocoa is brown/dark and delicious when made into chocolate - so it would not be insulting I don't think to refer to someone of dark skin colour male or female in this way - for a translation like this??


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## Moritzchen

Well, then we could go for "Nubian prince". But would they work in a 1950's setting?


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## Fundora2009

Do not italicized the word, look  *Almighty Egg* just translate the phrase as Hi buddy! Moreno is a  way to describe an Afro-American person in Cuba but Moreno is not offensive in Cuba. It is really hard to deal with this kind of vocabulary without hurting feeling nowadays but Hi buddy! for me it´s OK. In Cuba when we say ´´hola moreno´´, in English it means Hi buddy!


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## danny_el_travieso

in puerto rico (or here where I live in florida (usa)) saying 'moreno' isn't a derogatory word, everyone says it like its nothing, it doesn't necessarily have a negative association with it- 

I have always found 'negro' to be a bit more offensive depending on how you use it, I don't personally like to use it in reference to a black person,- the word is kind of like using 'tipo' or 'tipa' how depending on how you use it it can mean something negative and same with 'negro' but, the word 'negro' or 'negra' is also used among lovers kind of like saying 'baby'...- mira negra! - hey baby girl!! that is used in puerto rican spanish though i don't think it's quite used everywhere else.....


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## Josette

danny_el_travieso said:


> in puerto rico (or here where I live in florida (usa)) saying 'moreno' isn't a derogatory word, everyone says it like its nothing, it doesn't necessarily have a negative association with it-
> 
> I have always found 'negro' to be a bit more offensive depending on how you use it, I don't personally like to use it in reference to a black person,- the word is kind of like using 'tipo' or 'tipa' how depending on how you use it it can mean something negative and same with 'negro' but, the word 'negro' or 'negra' is also used among lovers kind of like saying 'baby'...- mira negra! - hey baby girl!! that is used in puerto rican spanish though i don't think it's quite used everywhere else.....



That's interesting, danny. I worked briefly with a lot of Argentinians who called each other "negro/a", regardless of the skin colour of the person whom they were talking to. I think it's an affectionate term of address.


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## ptak30

Given the extra context I now think that "darkie" would work. It is a film noir made many years ago and as such those looking at it will just have to accept that that's the way it is. We may wince when we see Al Jolson blacked up but nobody has suggested un-blackening his face  using technology. That's how it was made. Many films including "Mississippi Burning" , "Heat of the Night", "Remember the Titans" have covered racist issues where the speech and attitudes were correctly portrayed. 
If you're still wavering, you could adopt an Ebonics style greeting  a la Axel Foley "Hey, it's my man" or even "Hey, Brown Bomber" (No one would object to being mistaken for Joe Louis).


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## Wisconsinite

ptak30 said:


> Given the extra context I now think that "darkie" would work.



I don't think so. "Darkie" would not correctly portray the attitudes presented in the film, because it would ADD a racist element where none exists, which is different from covering up racism that is part of the original product.


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## alacant

Wisconsinite said:


> I don't think so. "Darkie" would not correctly portray the attitudes presented in the film, because it would ADD a racist element where none exists, which is different from covering up racism that is part of the original product.



Neither do I!  I think that the best suggestions have been "Hello handsome" or "Hi, Buddy".

Cheers, ala


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## nonchalant slacker

Almighty Egg said:


> Well, I don't think most English speakers understand the meaning and implications of "moreno".
> In my understanding it's an affectionate nickname for a dark-skinned man.
> We have no such (affectionate!) names that I know of, they all sound pejorative...
> And sorry, but "Hi my dark man..." just doesn't sound right...
> 
> I've got a hunch I'm going to have to avoid anything "dark".
> Cheers!



In Spanish and specially in the Caribean, saying "Hola Negro! Hola Moreno! it is a really common way to say Hi mate,Hello Bro, it is an adjetive to "Buddy" mainly used in the Caribean. it has nothing to do with the Skin color,and it is really common. thats the example between 2 men.

But..

If the case if that a girl of the same area is saying it to a guy who usually goes to the Bar and she knows him very well, then it is like saying "Hi handsome" in a friendly sarcastic way keeping the respect, as a compliment, but at the same time she is aware that neither the guy or her truly believe it, it is a Pun used between male and female friends.

A good translation for English viewers would be any friendly english word that an English Barmaid would use to say hi to a regular male costumer she knows well,in a friendly unique way to flatter him without being too serious about the idea the guy is handsome for her,but keeping the nice feeling. like Mexico river says "Hi good looking" with a sarcastic tone would perfectly suit.

by doing so you would avoid any controversy, plus in that specific context moreno is just an adjetive that works as "handsome" "Nice man"
but just in that context.


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## Mexico RV'er

I would either leave it as it stands, *Moreno*, or say something like, "Hi, Good Lookin'." All other suggestions above would not work in our society today.


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## alacant

Mexico RV'er said:


> I would either leave it as it stands, *Moreno*, or say something like, "Hi, Good Lookin'." All other suggestions above would not work in our society today.



In your opinion!


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## Janis Joplin

Almighty Egg said:


> Hello,
> I'm doing subs for a film, set in the Caribbean in the 50's.
> A black man walks into a bar, the barmaid says "Hola moreno".





Almighty Egg said:


> Well, I don't think most English speakers understand the meaning and implications of "moreno".
> In my understanding it's an affectionate nickname for a dark-skinned man.
> We have no such (affectionate!) names that I know of, they all sound pejorative...



You're right!



Almighty Egg said:


> ... I'm pretty sure saying "Hi tanned guy" to a black man is equally offensive, and will create an inappropriate sensation of absurdist humour in the viewer...  It will be perceived as racist in an English-speaking country.
> Does this mean the Spanish language is more racist? Less hypocritical? Or is it simply a question of culture? Who knows.



You're right again.  It is  simply a question of culture perfectly understandable in caribean countries only.



Almighty Egg said:


> Thanks for all your replies. I think I will just have to go with my original idea.
> For those that don't know "slim" was used as a sort of affectionate nickname for a slim man.



Good idea. The objective of translations is to express the way people usually talks ¿isn't it? Not to create confusion.


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## Almighty Egg

As a topical and relevant aside, is anyone aware of the furore surrounding the recent case of footballer Luis Suárez? It is said that he used the term "negro" when arguing with another player. It seems that he _was_ being abusive and racist, (Why did you kick me? "Porque tu eres negro,","No hablo con los negros") but the "lost in translation" element has been played as a mitigating cause...

See this article.

Saludos.


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## nonchalant slacker

Almighty Egg said:


> As a topical and relevant aside, is anyone aware of the furore surrounding the recent case of footballer Luis Suárez? It is said that he used the term "negro" when arguing with another player. It seems that he _was_ being abusive and racist, (Why did you kick me? "Porque tu eres negro,","No hablo con los negros") but the "lost in translation" element has been played as a mitigating cause...
> 
> See this article.
> 
> I know this case, it is a perfect example to expose how the word "negro" can be an insult or a nice word, As far as I Know, I read Suarez called negro to another player for about 7 times, and the tone he used wasnt friendly, Suarez actually tried to confuse people claiming later that he didnt mean it as an insult, his excuse was that calling Negro to someone wasnt considered an insult in Latin America,a good excuse,but not good enough because it also counts the way you say it, and also if you know the person,(not to mention this match was in England) eventually the committee decided that Suarez excuse wasnt solid enough so they penalized him.  (Why did you kick me? "Porque tu eres negro,","No hablo con los negros") < - -  thats a racist context in Spanish, mainly used in Spain and even in LatinAmerica if you want to bother black people, but it also depends on the way you say it, and it works as an offence everywhere among strangers.
> 
> in the movie context you were trying to translate, "Moreno" is a nice word because it is used among friends, people who know each other, plus I know that movie and the scene,they are recreating a Caribean scene, it is definitely a friendly expression you cant translate using a color.moreno is an adjetive to "nice man" "handsome" or even "good looking". in that movie context.  Even in Spain it can be used as a friendly expression if the person who says it likes dark skin color people.
> 
> 
> 
> Saludos.


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## CarlitosCorazon

Hi, my man,,,,,


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## aurilla

I suggest: "Hello/Hi there, dark and handsome."

(As in 'tall, dark, and handsome.')

If you want to give it a funny twist, maybe "Hello/Hi there, sweet chocolate."


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## gengo

Hi, Egg,
I totally agree with your instincts on this.  In modern English, it just isn't appropriate to refer to the skin color of a person in any way.  And since the word has no negative nuance in Spanish, the translation should have the same impact on the reader in English.  I was just about to make the same suggestion as Aurilla, saying tall, dark, and handsome, but I think the following is what a 1950's barmaid would be most likely to say.

Hiya, stranger.

"Hiya" was very popular back in the day, and it was common for a woman to call a man "stranger" in the setting of a bar, etc., especially when said with a come-hither look.


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## Sunshine on Leith

Hiya is still very popular, at least in Scotland. I would usually say 'Hello stranger' to people that I have not seen or spoken to for a while, 
but you could say it in a 'hussy way' to a pale/white/ginger/blonde man walking into a bar.

To assume that he is also tall and handsome is a bit too much. You could call moreno someone who is not handsome and short/medium-height.

Tall, dark and handsome can be a tall white man with brown/black hair.

So far, the only assumptions I can make is that he is a male and has dark/mulatto/tanned skin. And that it is said in a friendly way.

How about, Hello Sunshine! (not that I am biased)?


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## Janis Joplin

CarlitosCorazon said:


> Hi, my man,,,,,



Well, that solves the problem, haha.


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## gengo

> Hi, my man,,,,,





Janis Joplin said:


> Well, that solves the problem, haha.



To my ear, "my man" would sound odd said by a woman.  It is primarily used by men to other men.  It is especially unsuitable for a 1950's barmaid.


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## Bonz

Hi brown sugar...


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## rosario001

"I know this case, it is a perfect example to expose how the word "negro" can be an insult or a nice word, As far as I Know, I read Suarez called negro to another player for about 7 times, and the tone he used wasnt friendly, Suarez actually tried to confuse people claiming later that he didnt mean it as an insult, his excuse was that calling Negro to someone wasnt considered an insult in Latin America,a good excuse,but not good enough because it also counts the way you say it, and also if you know the person,(not to mention this match was in England) eventually the committee decided that Suarez excuse wasnt solid enough so they penalized him. (Why did you kick me? "Porque tu eres negro,","No hablo con los negros") < - - thats a racist context in Spanish, mainly used in Spain and even in LatinAmerica if you want to bother black people, but it also depends on the way you say it, and it works as an offence everywhere among strangers."

That's not quite right. The key thing you're missing here is that Suarez and Evra had completely different versions of what was said. Evra claimed that the dialogue was the one you quote above (Why did you kick me? "Porque tu eres negro,","No hablo con los negros"), Suarez claimed that Evra said "Don't touch me" and he answered "Por qué, negro?". The investigative panel decided Evra's version was more believable, and rightly, that if that was what was said, that it was racist. Suarez to this day denies he said anything like that. He didn't "try to confuse people" by claiming that saying "No hablo con los negros" wasn't racist, what he was claiming wasn't racist was the "Por qué, negro?", which I would say is much more open to discussion.


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## nonchalant slacker

rosario001 said:


> "I know this case, it is a perfect example to expose how the word "negro" can be an insult or a nice word, As far as I Know, I read Suarez called negro to another player for about 7 times, and the tone he used wasnt friendly, Suarez actually tried to confuse people claiming later that he didnt mean it as an insult, his excuse was that calling Negro to someone wasnt considered an insult in Latin America,a good excuse,but not good enough because it also counts the way you say it, and also if you know the person,(not to mention this match was in England) eventually the committee decided that Suarez excuse wasnt solid enough so they penalized him. (Why did you kick me? "Porque tu eres negro,","No hablo con los negros") < - - thats a racist context in Spanish, mainly used in Spain and even in LatinAmerica if you want to bother black people, but it also depends on the way you say it, and it works as an offence everywhere among strangers."
> 
> That's not quite right. The key thing you're missing here is that Suarez and Evra had completely different versions of what was said. Evra claimed that the dialogue was the one you quote above (Why did you kick me? "Porque tu eres negro,","No hablo con los negros"), Suarez claimed that Evra said "Don't touch me" and he answered "Por qué, negro?". The investigative panel decided Evra's version was more believable, and rightly, that if that was what was said, that it was racist. Suarez to this day denies he said anything like that. He didn't "try to confuse people" by claiming that saying "No hablo con los negros" wasn't racist, what he was claiming wasn't racist was the "Por qué, negro?", which I would say is much more open to discussion.




I dont want to make a deep review of the news itself because we are solving the use of the word Negro used in a friendly or unfriendly way,and  if we talk too much about the news, then comments or even the thread itself could be deleted,  I quoted the dialogue Almighty egg posted as an example and explained how the word negro would ve worked there,so Almighty egg had a better perspective in that situation Almighty egg himself described.

Now in the line you quote     "Suarez claimed that Evra said "Don't touch me" and Suarez answered "Por qué, negro?".  < - - -  In that case, the word Negro is a friendly term, if your voice sounds friendly and there is no a hidden intention of provoking
.

This reminds me another important detail about the word "Negro" and the way Latinamerica use it, when people from Latinamerica go to North America, they are warned about  not using the word "Negro" in the way they are used to, like "be careful about using that word here in USA, even if you do it with good intentions, it could be misunderstood".

Example, if you are in Latin America or the Caribean and a white person gets into a bar or shop and say 

"Hola Negro buenos dias, me podrias ayudar a encontrar una direccion" < - -  in latin America that sentence is friendly and common. (with the right voice)

"Hola Negro buenos dias, me podrias ayudar a encontrar una direccion" < - - in North America it would be an offence and an insult.

I insist that the translation for the word moreno in that movie must be "Hello sugar, Hello Prince,Hello Romeo"  < - - something that convey friendship and sarcasm and never to mention a color if the movie is being translated for English Speakers.


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## Mexico RV'er

*"I insist that the translation for the word moreno in that movie must be "Hello sugar, Hello Prince,Hello Romeo" < - - something that convey friendship and sarcasm and never to mention a color if the movie is being translated for English Speakers.* "

That is very sound advice. Any mention of color, no matter how affectionate the intent, is apt to cause someone to take exception to it.


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## pops91710

My vote goes for moreno. It has flavor and is not offensive. If a barmaid came up to me and said "Hiya handsome", I'd take it as a come-on. Of course, if this is her pet name for me as a regular bar patron, that's a different story. (Not that I ever go regularly to bars!)


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## Nimbus-

Just like a note. In the film "Gran Torino" by Clint Eastwood, he make a racist comment calling some young black boys "Spooks". 
In the Spanish version he call them "Morenos".
I think there was a way to try to not sound too much racist while being it indeed.
Call "Moreno" to someone meaning "Black man" is like a very old  fashioned way of racism. Usually in American films about the Old South  or so, translations make them call "Chico" (Boy. Even if the man is old)  to a black man, or "Moreno" when talk about some black man that's not  present (Un moreno. A spook)
Otherwise is true that in South-America, as far as I know, "Negro" is a friendly way to call to some "Black Man" if is your close friend. 
In Spain "Moreno" or "Morena" just means brunette or dark haired and it could be also a "Flattering comment", a compliment. Also means tanned (Quiero ponerme moreno- I want to get tanned).


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## mancunienne girl

My penny's worth would be to avoid any reference to colour. It sounds like the original context is similar to what we would say to someone who is blonde. It's perfectly OK for us English speakers to say "Hi Blondie", but I would say this implies an affection for or attraction to the person to whom it is used. You never say "Hi brunette" or "Hi Dark Guy"..... do you? If the guy in the film is indeed handsome, I would probably go for "Hi gorgeous", but it will sound daft if he's not particularly good-looking! In which case your suggestion to italicise would be better. I'm with those people who hate it when sub-titles actually convey a different meaning than the original script. It's really irritating!


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## Mexico RV'er

Nimbus- said:


> Just like a note. In the film "Gran Torino" by Clint Eastwood, he make a racist comment calling some young black boys "Spooks".
> In the Spanish version he call them "Morenos".
> I think there was a way to try to not sound too much racist while being it indeed.
> Call "Moreno" to someone meaning "Black man" is like a very old  fashioned way of racism. Usually in American films about the Old South  or so, translations make them call "Chico" (Boy. Even if the man is old)  to a black man, or "Moreno" when talk about some black man that's not  present (Un moreno. A spook)
> Otherwise is true that in South-America, as far as I know, "Negro" is a friendly way to call to some "Black Man" if is your close friend.
> In Spain "Moreno" or "Morena" just means brunette or dark haired and it could be also a "Flattering comment", a compliment. Also means tanned (Quiero ponerme moreno- I want to get tanned).



I would definitely not use "spooks"!  That would be very offensive.


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## Trailbosstom

Hi, tall, dark, and handsome. That's a common respectful way to say it, though more wordy.


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## Aviador

But, why should there be any need to call somebody black, or whatever, if there is no intention of being racist, obnoxious or discriminating somehow? Why people do not say _Hey, white!_ if adressing a "caucasian"?
There is a thread (now closed) in the _Sólo español_ forum about this, in which I also took part: Moreno.


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## Trailbosstom

It's common in Mexico to be called prieto or güero and there's no offense meant nor taken. It's natural that the translator wants to catch this flavor in the Caribbean, but I'm not sure there's a way to say, "Hola, prieto." that would convey the same meaning, so it may not be worth it to try. Maybe leave it as moreno and let the audience that understands catch the idea and let the others wonder.


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## Mexico RV'er

Trailbosstom said:


> It's common in Mexico to be called prieto or güero and there's no offense meant nor taken. It's natural that the translator wants to catch this flavor in the Caribbean, but I'm not sure there's a way to say, "Hola, prieto." that would convey the same meaning, so it may not be worth it to try. Maybe leave it as moreno and let the audience that understands catch the idea and let the others wonder.



I think you have the best suggestion!  That's what I would do.


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## cristina8023

Almighty Egg said:


> I guess it's like the similar nickname "chino" for anyone with "ojos achinados". It doesn't travel. It will be perceived as racist in an English-speaking country.
> Does this mean the Spanish language is more racist? Less hypocritical? Or is it simply a question of culture? Who knows.


primero qué significa "ojos achinados"? según mi dicionario español-chino es un tipo de ojos bonitos. es una frase racista?
second what´s the meaning of ¨It doesn't travel¨
 gracias.


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## Empuje taquiónico

Almighty Egg said:


> Thanks for the tip...
> But I'm pretty sure saying "Hi tanned guy" to a black man is equally offensive, and will create an inappropriate sensation of absurdist humour in the viewer.
> I guess it's like the similar nickname "chino" for anyone with "ojos achinados". It doesn't travel. It will be perceived as racist in an English-speaking country.
> Does this mean the Spanish language is more racist? Less hypocritical? Or is it simply a question of culture? Who knows.



"Does this mean the Spanish language is more racist?" I don't know. Perhaps it's the other way around. Have you considered that possibility?
"Less hypocritical?" Could be.
"Or is it simply a question of culture?" Most probably.

I only wanted to add that, for me, it's very sad that in a language like English, one cannot name the colour of someone's skin because it will make the interlocutor think one is racist, no matter what. What's wrong with having black skin? We all know that there's nothing wrong. If we censor the N-words in every circumstance, we are implicitly acknowledging that being what the word describes is intrinsically bad; that is, we are covertly giving the racists reasons for what they believe. I will never understand why this is so and I hope one day this changes in the English language and in the English-speaking cultures. This is my opinion. 

Cheers,


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## cristina8023

It´s ture that the translation of subtitles changes a lot the original. but I think it's OK traslate "hola , moreno" to "hi, handsome". beacuse according to what i've learned the word "moreno" dosen't have lots meanings of racial discrimination.
but i'm neither native speak of english nor spanish, so that's just my  opinion.


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## cristina8023

I agree!  It's better than Hi handsome.


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## mrgshelton

This is the strangest thread in WR for a long, long time!

Nobody from North America has offered a suggestion?  Well, I'll give it a try (and the first answer, from Billbasque, "Wouldn't just 'Hi, moreno' do?" was the best one), and no italics, as Moritzchen affirms.

A Spanish-language film set in the Caribbean in the '50s?  The guy's calling the other guy *moreno* wouldn't need to be translated as anything other than *moreno* any more than if the first guy's friends were calling him *güero*.  Only in the full context of the movie can we know if either of these are "fighting words" or "terms of endearment" or something neutral, simply what they like to call each other.

I can say I've been called *güero* frequently over the years (by both latinos and non-latinos) and have never been offended.  But it's a totally different thing for someone to call me *whitey* or *cracker*.  And, call me *Slim* or *untanned one* or *Paleface* or something odd like that would be ridiculous.  Use *moreno*.  If the guys in the movie get into a fight about it, then you'll know it was derrogatory.  If they don't, then you'll know it was meaningless.  Either way, you'll have used the correct word.


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## Mexico RV'er

mrgshelton said:


> This is the strangest thread in WR for a long, long time!
> 
> Nobody from North America has offered a suggestion?  Well, I'll give it a try (and the first answer, from Billbasque, "Wouldn't just 'Hi, moreno' do?" was the best one), and no italics, as Moritzchen affirms.
> 
> A Spanish-language film set in the Caribbean in the '50s?  The guy's calling the other guy *moreno* wouldn't need to be translated as anything other than *moreno* any more than if the first guy's friends were calling him *güero*.  Only in the full context of the movie can we know if either of these are "fighting words" or "terms of endearment" or something neutral, simply what they like to call each other.
> 
> I can say I've been called *güero* frequently over the years (by both latinos and non-latinos) and have never been offended.  But it's a totally different thing for someone to call me *whitey* or *cracker*.  And, call me *Slim* or *untanned one* or *Paleface* or something odd like that would be ridiculous.  Use *moreno*.  If the guys in the movie get into a fight about it, then you'll know it was derrogatory.  If they don't, then you'll know it was meaningless.  Either way, you'll have used the correct word.



You've had several from North America offer suggestions, but we may not have been recognizable.  I may spend the majority of my time in Mexico now that I am retired, but I am from the US, and I have lived in many different regions in the US, most recently the Northeast.  Looking back through the posts I find others also from the US . . . most recently, Trailbosstom.

My opinion is that "moreno" should be left as is.  It is not going to capture the essence of the word if it is transformed into something else.


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## mrgshelton

Thanks, Mexico RV'er...! (And sorry I overlooked you, Trailbosstom)


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## gengo

mrgshelton said:


> Nobody from North America has offered a suggestion?  Well, I'll give it a try (and the first answer, from Billbasque, "Wouldn't just 'Hi, moreno' do?" was the best one), and no italics, as Moritzchen affirms.



I'm North American and have made a couple of posts here, but I guess they got lost in the crowd.

I do not think that leaving moreno untranslated is a good idea, because most non-speakers of Spanish won't know what it means and will think it is a name, as in Rita Moreno.

As always, context is king, and since this is a 1950's barmaid speaking to a man who has entered her bar, I still think my previous suggestion is best.  Of course, others may have their own preferences.


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## nonchalant slacker

Nimbus- said:


> Just like a note. In the film "Gran Torino" by Clint Eastwood, he make a racist comment calling some young black boys "Spooks".
> In the Spanish version he call them "Morenos".
> I think there was a way to try to not sound too much racist while being it indeed.
> Call "Moreno" to someone meaning "Black man" is like a very old  fashioned way of racism. Usually in American films about the Old South  or so, translations make them call "Chico" (Boy. Even if the man is old)  to a black man, or "Moreno" when talk about some black man that's not  present (Un moreno. A spook)
> Otherwise is true that in South-America, as far as I know, "Negro" is a friendly way to call to some "Black Man" if is your close friend.
> In Spain "Moreno" or "Morena" just means brunette or dark haired and it could be also a "Flattering comment", a compliment. Also means tanned (Quiero ponerme moreno- I want to get tanned).




I know the movie Gran torino and also know the movie people are talking about in this thread,and Spooks is a really bad option to fix this thread question,as well as that Grand torino film situation, Spanish Movie translations in Spain are not very accurate with  English movies or American Movies as when it comes to English movies in original language,Spain hasnt a Solid nor long Original version movie culture, so I wouldnt use a Spanish Translation from an American or English movie translated in Spain to find an option to solve this thread.


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## nonchalant slacker

cristina8023 said:


> primero qué significa "ojos achinados"? según mi dicionario español-chino es un tipo de ojos bonitos. es una frase racista?
> second what´s the meaning of ¨It doesn't travel¨
> gracias.



Ojos achinados means "Chinesse eyes style"


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## RonSavage

Amighty Egg has left the building. My point being, I think the decision has been made.


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## Bonz

The problem is that "Moreno/Morena" does not mean black, it means brown or tan.


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## Almighty Egg

RonSavage said:


> Amighty Egg has left the building. My point being, I think the decision has been made.



Yes, it has, I've moved on. It has been nigh on a year, after all.

I went with "Hi handsome" in the end, for reasons I explain in posts #10 and #14 on the first page. 

Basically because: 
1) Any reference to skin colour would be inappropriate and likely to be misinterpreted by English speakers. 
2) The word "moreno" left untranslated wouldn't be understood by English speakers.
3) In the context, the term is used as a friendly greeting, and what is needed is another friendly greeting. In any case, it is inconsequential to the plot of the movie.

That said, I still follow this thread and I'm glad I started it. It's proven to be one of the more interesting discussions I've seen on WR, as I thought it would be when I began it.

Saludos a todos.


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## RonSavage

Thanks for the update. I felt this was the best choice as well. "Brownie" was the funniest though.


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## Mirlo

Agró said:


> Does "brownie" sound _racist_ too?



Oh yeah, and that's a whole different story!!


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## RonSavage

I think it would break one of two ways: the hearer (if dark skinned) would either die laughing or take extreme offense. I don't see much happening in the middle here.


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## Rosaliati

any one knows where my comment is?
is any one or anyone?


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## Eric1983

I beat a guy's ass in Honduras for calling my cousin a moreno one time, I grew up in New Orleans, Louisiana but was born in Honduras.It seemed like the guy was being disrespectful


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