# posh (origin)



## 40TONY

I have heard that the adjective "posh" comes from putting together four letters, P O S H, and this letters are the beggining of four words. The idea is that those four words are related with rich people in England when they travelled by boats around the world. Does anybody know something about this?
Than you.


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## Agró

Posh. Unlikely, though, apparently.


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## Bevj

Agró's explanation is the one which I have always understood to be correct.


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## fenixpollo

From etymonline.com: 





> by 1914 (1903 as push), of uncertain origin; no evidence for the common derivation from an acronym of port outward, starboard home,  supposedly the shipboard accommodations of wealthy British traveling to  India on the P & O Lines (to keep their cabins out of the sun); as  per OED, see objections outlined in G. Chowdharay-Best, "Mariner's  Mirror," Jan. 1971; also *see here*. More likely from slang posh  "a dandy" (1890), from thieves' slang meaning "money" (1830),  originally "coin of small value, halfpenny," possibly from Romany posh "half" [Barnhart].


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## mijoch

I too agree wih Agró---but with a little slant.

Posh---port out starboard home applied to the service Portsmouth (south coast of England) to and from Cape Town, South Africa.


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## Wordsmyth

mijoch said:


> I too agree wih Agró---but with a little slant.
> 
> Posh---port out starboard home applied to the service Portsmouth (south coast of England) to and from Cape Town, South Africa.


 What's your source for that, mijoch?

Even if the "port out, starboard home" were correct (and most sources suggest it's not), it wouldn't make much sense on an essentially north/south route. The idea is based on having cabins out of the sun, which works only on east/west routes in the northern hemisphere.

And I don't think Agró was suggesting that the "port out, starboard home" explanation was the right one. He linked to a dictionary entry that says that the more likely origin is the obsolete slang word "posh", meaning a dandy.

Ws


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## mijoch

I and lots more Brits grew up with that idea.

What's your source for some other idea? 
How valid is it?

_<< --- comment removed --- >>_


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## EddieZumac

My Webster's Dictionary describes "posh" as a British slang meaning "luxurious and fashionable, elegant."


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## Wordsmyth

mijoch said:


> _ <<-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=->>_


 Let's keep it cordial, shall we? Yes, I can handle the idea of more than one possibility. Having more than one possibility invites discussion, and this is a discussion forum! So I was discussing.


mijoch said:


> I and lots more Brits grew up with that idea. _[...]_


 So did I, with the idea that it was "port out, starboard home", though I'd never heard the theory of Portsmouth to Cape Town — and that's what I was asking if you had more information on, or at least how you think it works on a north/south route. If you have such information, my unlimited mind would be very pleased to take it into account. 


mijoch said:


> What's your source for some other idea?
> How valid is it?


 There are many such sources. Agró cited the WR (Collins) dictionary; fenixpollo quoted the Online Etymological Dictionary; Oxford Dictionaries have this: 
- early 20th century: perhaps from slang _posh_, denoting a dandy. There is no evidence to support the folk etymology that _posh_ is formed from the initials of _port out starboard home.
_
I'd say that those (and many other) respected sources are generally considered pretty valid.

Ws


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## mijoch

There were so many P&O routes.
I think the Southampton/Cape Town was more correct.

Out--morning sun portside.
Home--morning sun starboardside.

The only sites that offer definite quotes are some of the P&O historical ones.

I like the "posh/dandy" one, but until somebody chops out the POSH one, it retains some validity.

I seem to remember news about some posh file off to Cape Town and the jokes about having a POSH ticket.


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## Wordsmyth

mijoch said:


> _[...]_
> Out--morning sun portside.
> Home--morning sun starboardside.
> _[...]_


 I suppose that could be an attractive thought for lovers of tropical morning sun.

A couple of articles that weigh the merits of the different possibilities of the origin of "posh" (with some useful facts and reasoning) are in phrases.org.uk and merriam-webster.

Ws


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## fenixpollo

mijoch said:


> I like the "posh/dandy" one, but until somebody chops out the POSH one, it retains some validity.


The same validity as other urban legends that claim that "fuck" and "shit" originated from acronyms. I like the "port outside" one, but until somebody produces a ticket stub or steamer trunk with that acronym, the "posh/dandy" one seems the most likely.


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## Keith Bradford

The acronym explanation is total nonsense.

Posh is a Romany word, meaning _a half, a halfpenny_. Hence: _That sort of patter I was just speaking of is the thing to get the posh = to get the money. _First recorded 1830, this quotation 1892.

From there almost certainly to _*posh = wealth, rich people*_.

P&O liners have offered a reward for any documentary evidence that their tickets were ever categorised as P.O.S.H. - to no avail.

Source: Michael Quinion, _Port Out Starboard Home, the fascinating sory we tell about the words we use_, Penguin Books, London 2004.

[*As a more general comment*: Almost no acronyms exist from before 1900, and they only became widespread during the 2nd World War.  With the exception of _OK _and a few other US university-originated words, the attemps to derive short modern terms from acronyms are pure fantasy.  Examples: gnome, drag (= cross-dressing), wog, phat, pom (= immigrant to Australia), shit, cop (= policeman) etc. etc. ad nauseam.]


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## JustKate

Acronyms (that is, abbreviations pronounced like words) were basically unknown until the 20th century.  I believe Quinion says this somewhere or other, and I am sure Bill Bryson does in one of his books on the English language. (_The Mother Tongue_, maybe? I'll try to remember to check it tonight.) One of the first well-known ones was _AWOL_, which dates from World War I. 

Assuming the 20th century was when acronyms were born, any theories about acronyms that predate the 20th century are simply wishful thinking. It's a shame because some of the theories are really charming and compelling. But the research hasn't validated any of them, as far as I know.


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## Parla

To add just a little to Keith's post(#13), Quinion's book adds that, "It looks from the evidence that posh in the modern sense was at first a military slang term of the First World War. Its first appearance is in the magazine _Punch_ in September 1918, in which an RAF officer is saying to his mother, 'Oh, yes, Mater, we had a posh time of it down there.'"


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## mijoch

A little comment.

When the weather turns hottish, the "morning sun" is kinder than the "afternoon sun"------obvious?

Words can arrive simply from sound. Someone writes "push"; another changes it to "posh", another says it's Romani slang, and off we all go. Lingistic theories are good fun.

I like the one about the "linguistic and cultural links between Ancient Egypt and precolumbian Central America".

POSH------The management never get to know the lower level fiddles.

"Bung us a fiver guv and I'll mark yer ticket. For you a better berth and care. Keep it quiet, you know what I mean! Nod nod, wink wink.

Guess what the "mark" is. Then some bright spark spots the "port out starboard home" and off we all go again.

So POSH is simply the same old "posh" in a new dress.

Nearly as bad as the one about "half the Indian place names come from Hebrew".


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## Wordsmyth

mijoch said:


> _[...] _When the weather turns hottish, the "morning sun" is kinder than the "afternoon sun"------obvious? _[...] _


 In the tropics I've often found it sweltering at 10am! But that's relevant only to the discussion of north/south and east/west routes. For those of us who don't go along with the sea-travel explanation, it's not an issue.

Ws


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## PaulQ

mijoch said:


> A little comment.
> 
> When the weather turns hottish, the "morning sun" is kinder than the "afternoon sun"------obvious?
> 
> Words can arrive simply from sound. Someone writes "push"; another changes it to "posh", another says it's Romani slang, [...]
> POSH...
> 
> "Bung us a fiver guv and I'll mark yer ticket. For you a better berth and care. Keep it quiet, you know what I mean! Nod nod, wink wink.
> 
> Guess what the "mark" is. Then some bright spark spots the "port out starboard home" [...].
> 
> So POSH is simply the same old "posh" in a new dress.


Your imagination does you credit.  

Phrasefinder is a reliable site: http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/port out starboard home.html


> There is no evidence to confirm this story though and it appears to have been dreamed up retrospectively to match an existing meaning. Whoever thought it up must have been quite pleased with it, and it appeals to enough people to get repeated endlessly. It also panders to the popular craving for the employment of acronyms as the explanation of common phrases - golf ('gentlemen only, ladies forbidden'), cop ('constable on patrol') etc. These are nonsense but they keep cropping up. It's worth remembering that acronyms are a 20th century phenomenon and researchers are hard pressed to find any examples before the 1920s. The word acronym itself wasn't coined until the 1940s.*Any such explanation of older words, like 'golf', or indeed 'posh', is sure to be false.*


Hope that helps.


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## mijoch

I hope you can see that I now certainly don't see the "PORT......" as the origin  of "posh"

It seems clear that its origin is obscurely interesting.

It's been a giggle.


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## Sparky Malarky

More references:

http://www.snopes.com/language/acronyms/posh.asp

http://www.word-detective.com/back-p.html (scroll down)

http://www.word-detective.com/back-e.html (again, scroll down)


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