# Participes passés / past participle



## babaz

Bonjour,

Je rencontre quelques difficultés avec les participes passés en hébreu, avec ce que nous appelons en français participe passé devrais-je plutôt dire.

Le nifal permet d'exprimer la voie passive avec de nombreux verbes, mais que dire de participes passés suivant des verbes d'état autres que le verbe "être" ?

"Cet homme paraît bien fatigué" par exemple.

Merci


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## ks20495

Can you understand English?


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## babaz

Yes yes. 

I could translate my question.


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## ks20495

No...I understand the question. I just can't express myself in French  

So, the use of the "to be" to express the passive is something that you really find only in European languages.

In Hebrew, the passive is formed by a separate verb form that exists for every transitive verb.

The passive of transitive verbs in בניין פעל is in בניין נפעל
For example: שמואל כתב את הספר = Samuel wrote the book.
הספר נכתב על-ידי שמואל = The book was written by Samuel.

The passive of verbs in בניין פיעל is בניין פועל
For example: רינה חִבּרְָה את המאמר = Rina composed the article
המאמר חֻבַּר על-ידי רינה = The article was composed by Rina

the passive of verbs in בניין הפעיל is בניין הופעל
דנה הִרְגִישָׁה את הרעידה = Dana felt the shaking
הרעידה הֻרְגְּשָׁה על-ידי דנה


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## ks20495

And, also, there really are no past participles AT ALL in Hebrew. 
We have a present participle that can be expressed in the past.

For example,
מְחֻבָּר means "connected' or "composed".
If I say, the "המחשב היה מחובר לאינטרנט עד אתמול", that means "The computer was connected to the internet until yesterday." -- In the example, מחובר is functioning as an adjective that describes the state the computer was in. It's not a passive verb that indicates the action of someone's 'connecting' the computer.

To express a similar idea in the passive, I have to say:
"המחשב חֻבַּר לאינטרנט", which also means, "The computer was connected to the Internet." But, here, חובר is a verb that indicates that someone performed the act of 'connecting' the computer.


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## babaz

! תודה רבה ​
My original question wasn't about the use of "to be" to express the passive voice, but with stative verbs other than the verb to be, as the verb "appear"
That said, your answer helped me a "review" of connections between different modes, and I thank you very much!

For example, how should we say in Hebrew: "This book *seemed* written by ...?" Or simply "That said" ? 

Besides, why did you write "המחשב היה מחובר" and not "המחשב מחובר" to say "The computer was connected" (as you wrote above "המאמר חֻבַּר על-ידי רינה" and not "המאמר היה חֻבַּר על-ידי רינה" ?

Thank you!

PS : can I ask you what software you use to be able to write the vowels?


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## ks20495

I guess my French isn't good for anything haha.



> For example, how should we say in Hebrew: "This book seemed written by ...?" Or simply "That said" ?



This depends on the verb.

For "seem", we use נראָה or נדמָה. I know I said בניין נפעל is the passive of פעל. But, it also has other uses too.

As far as "that said," I assume you mean something like "I read an article that said." In that case, we use "שכתוב בו", which means "in which is written." This is an example of the passive participle I mentioned above. Thus, "I read an article that said that" is "קראתי מאמר שכתוב בו ש".



> Besides, why did you write "המחשב היה מחובר" and not "המחשב מחובר" to say "The computer was connected" (as you wrote above "המאמר חֻבַּר על-ידי רינה" and not "המאמר היה חֻבַּר על-ידי רינה" ?



"מחובר" is an past participle, which functions like an adjective. It can be in any tense. This is the same in English: Take, for example, the participle "satisfied." When I say, "After I had dinner, I was satisfied," "satisfied" is functioning as an adjective - replaceable by the adjectives "full" or "content." I can say, "After I have dinner, I am satisfied" and "After I will have dinner, I will be satisfied." It's the same exact thing with "מחובר": 

"המחשב היה מחובר" is "the computer was connected"; "המחשב מחובר" is "the computer is connected"; "המחשב יהיה מחובר" is the "the computer will be connected"

However, when I say "המאמר חֻבַּר על-ידי רינה", I am stating a verb, not an adjective. חֻבַּר by itself means the concept "was composed," which cannot be divided into two parts. In English, we need two terms: "was + composed." But, in Hebrew we need only one. (Think about how in English we need two terms to express the future (will + compose); but, in French, you need only one (composera). 

Thus, when you write, "היה חֻבַּר," it looks like "was was composed." It's analogous in its ungrammaticality to writing in French "sera composera."  



> PS : can I ask you what software you use to be able to write the vowels?



There's no software. If you're on a PC, you just put on CAPSLOCK. Hold down shift while pressing the numbers - and voila! You have vowels.


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## Aoyama

But then, the example given at the beginning of this thread is questionable :
"Cet homme paraît bien fatigué" / "this man looks really tired".
Fatigué/tired (in both French or English) is NOT a p.p., it is an _adjective _(that looks like a p.p.). In Hebrew it would be (sorry, I can only write Latin here) :
ha ish hazé niré hayef me'od/nora hayef. "Hayef" is not in Hebrew a p.p., it is an adjective. I was tired becomes "hayiti hayef/hayefa".


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## OsehAlyah

babaz said:


> PS : can I ask you what software you use to be able to write the vowels?


If you scroll down towards the bottom of this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niqqud link you will see a table that shows which number to enter on the keyboard to generate the desirable nikkud.


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## ks20495

> But then, the example given at the beginning of this thread is questionable :
> "Cet homme paraît bien fatigué" / "this man looks really tired".
> Fatigué/tired (in both French or English) is NOT a p.p., it is an adjective (that looks like a p.p.). In Hebrew it would be (sorry, I can only write Latin here) :
> ha ish hazé niré hayef me'od/nora hayef. "Hayef" is not in Hebrew a p.p., it is an adjective. I was tired becomes "hayiti hayef/hayefa".



Well, "fatigué" IS a past participle -- of the verb "fatiguer." And "tired" IS the past participle of "to tire." It's not that they're adjectives that just happen to look like past participles. They are still the past participles. We just no longer think of them as participles, because we've disconnected their meanings from the verbs. The same is true with the word "satisfied" (to a slightly lesser degree) or even "closed". 

Regardless, that doesn't affect anything. Past participles have two functions in English and French function as adjectives: (1) The function implied by their names: a form of the verb used in compound verbs to connect the action to the past: i.e., "J'ai fatigué l'homme." or "I have tired the man." (2) They function as adjectives: The definition of an adjective is any lexical unit that modifies a noun. This is what they are doing in the cases of "Je suis fatigué." OR "I am tired." OR "I am satisfied." etc...

That's the difference between past participles in English and French and passive participles in Hebrew: The passive participle has nothing to do with verbs in the past. It essentially only functions as an adjective in modern Hebrew. 
האיש הזה נראה עייף. Sure!
But I can also say: האיש הזה נראה מעויף -- which means "This man looks tired/exhausted," where מעויף is the passive participle of עִיֵּף.


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## Aoyama

This is not the place to discuss French, but "fatigué" is a past participle employed as an adjective. The dictionary will indicate "adjective".
See notably here : http://atilf.atilf.fr/tlf.htm (+ "fatigué")  ; and in this Forum (the dictionaries).
Je suis fatigué and (for example) il m'a fatigué(e) have different functions.


> I can also say: האיש הזה נראה *מעויף* -- which means "This man looks tired/exhausted," where מעויף is the passive participle of עִיֵּף.


 very true. That shows that two constructions are possible in Hebrew, one with a simple adjectif (עייף)and the other with a p.p.(מעויף).


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## origumi

But both עייף and מעוייף are present tense (or participles, historically) of binyan pa`al and pu`al, respectively, thus can be employed as either noun or verb or adjective. And there's nothing "past" or "passive" (beyond the binyan's nature) about them. As a verb that indicates state, עייף is considered mainly an adjective (like in French and other languages) and almost lost its verbal meaning in the present tense. Consequently, other verb forms are preferred sometimes to reduce the adjectival (or stative) quality, for example משמין inseatd of שמן or מתעייף instead of עייף.


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## Aoyama

Yes, I follow that.
In fact (but my knowledge of Hebrew grammar is limited), I would have thought that the mem- form would make it a "factitive" form, like in shemen/fat, mashmin/to make fat, to fatten.
But that wouldn't work always. Medaber and Medoubar, medoubar would clearly be a passive (spoken about), dibar a p.p. .
Other verbs like ro'é/ra'a, okhel/akhal etc might have a "past tense root" that may qualify as a p.p. .


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## ks20495

> But both עייף and מעוייף are present tense (or participles, historically) of binyan pa`al and pu`al, respectively, thus can be employed as either noun or verb or adjective.



The reason I didn't bring up בניין פועל is that I thought it would be easier for Babaz to think of it as a "passive participle." Technically, of course you're right. The form is the בינוני of בניין פועל.

But, functionally, it is not used in a way that is semantically analogous to the בינוני in the פעל, פיעל, התפעל, ונפעל -- i.e., the בינוני in הופעל ופועל is virtually never used as a present tense verb. (Rather, we use an active construction to express  an agent-less action in the present: Instead of המחשב מחובר עכשיו*, we say מחברים את המחשב עכשיו.) 

Rather, the use of the בינוני in פועל והופעל is analogous to בינוני הפעול in בניין פעל: All three are used as passive participles: By participles, I mean "a word that shares the characteristics of both verbs and adjectives" (Wikipedia). That is exactly what they are. (They fit the definition especially well, because -- unlike the בינוני in other בניינים -- these forms can only be adjectives and not nouns.) I don't think I have to explain why they are passive....But, I hope this explains where I was coming from linguistically.


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## babaz

Thank you for your answer !



ks20495 said:


> This depends on the verb.
> 
> For "seem", we use נראָה or נדמָה. I know I said בניין נפעל is the passive of פעל. But, it also has other uses too.


And what do we use after נראָה or נדמָה ? 

רינה חִבּרְָה את המאמר = Rina composed the article

How to say : "Rina seems to have composed this article" ? I suppose we can't use "חִבּרְָה" due to the consecutive repetition of the auxilary between "חִבּרְָה" (which includes "to be") and "נראָה" (which is another stative verb).

And could you please say me what is the infinive of a verb in בניין פועל ?



> As far as "that said," I assume you mean something like "I read an article that said." In that case, we use "שכתוב בו", which means "in which is written." This is an example of the passive participle I mentioned above. Thus, "I read an article that said that" is "קראתי מאמר שכתוב בו ש".


לכתוב is a verb in בניין פעל. From what you wrote above, its passive mode should be בניין נפעל.

Why do we use here "שכתוב בו" rather than "שנכתב בו" ?



> "מחובר" is an past participle, which functions like an adjective.


We have written above : "And, also, there really are no past participles AT ALL in Hebrew."



> It can be in any tense. This is the same in English: Take, for example, the participle "satisfied." When I say, "After I had dinner, I was satisfied," "satisfied" is functioning as an adjective - replaceable by the adjectives "full" or "content." I can say, "After I have dinner, I am satisfied" and "After I will have dinner, I will be satisfied." It's the same exact thing with "מחובר":
> 
> "המחשב היה מחובר" is "the computer was connected"; "המחשב מחובר" is "the computer is connected"; "המחשב יהיה מחובר" is the "the computer will be connected"


I have experienced the same difficulty with a word that is in French a past participle ("risqué") and is translated in English by and adjective ("risky"). Very hard to conceive... I thought I'd say my whole life "risked", because of my inability to distinguish these two functions (past participle and adjective) with this word in my native language.



> However, when I say "המאמר חֻבַּר על-ידי רינה", I am stating a verb, not an adjective. חֻבַּר by itself means the concept "was composed," which cannot be divided into two parts. In English, we need two terms: "was + composed." But, in Hebrew we need only one. (Think about how in English we need two terms to express the future (will + compose); but, in French, you need only one (composera). Thus, when you write, "היה חֻבַּר," it looks like "was was composed." It's analogous in its ungrammaticality to writing in French "sera composera."


Very clear, thank you !

Is there a past participle with the same meaning as "מחובר" and through which we could say "*** המחשב היה" ?



> There's no software. If you're on a PC, you just put on CAPSLOCK. Hold down shift while pressing the numbers - and voila! You have vowels.


Wow ! thank you !!!


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## Aoyama

> I have experienced the same difficulty with a word that is in French a past participle ("risqué") and is translated in English by and adjective ("risky"). Very hard to conceive... I thought I'd say my whole life "risked", because of my inability to distinguish these two functions (past participle and adjective) with this word in my native language.


that is why "risqué" is also used in English (probably in Hebrew too, but pedantic), in a restricted meaning (like "osé" in French, which would also pose a problem).
The word "touché" is also used in English (originally from fencing), probably in Hebrew also.


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## ks20495

> And what do we use after נראָה or נדמָה ?
> 
> רינה חִבּרְָה את המאמר = Rina composed the article
> 
> How to say : "Rina seems to have composed this article" ? I suppose we can't use "חִבּרְָה" due to the consecutive repetition of the auxilary between "חִבּרְָה" (which includes "to be") and "נראָה" (which is another stative verb).



You say "נראֶה\נדמֶה שרינה חיברה את המאמר". 

If you say, "רינה נראית\נדימת כאילו היא חיברה את המאמר", that means "Rina looks/seems like she wrote the article." (not what you're trying to say lol.)



> And could you please say me what is the infinive of a verb in בניין פועל ?



Verbs in פועל and הופעל do not have an infinitive. You _can_ say "להיות מחובר," for example, as an infinitive. But, it's pretty awkward. Normally, you just use the infinitive for the verb in פיעל or הפעיל.



> לכתוב is a verb in בניין פעל. From what you wrote above, its passive mode should be בניין נפעל.
> 
> Why do we use here "שכתוב בו" rather than "שנכתב בו" ?



As I've said, in modern Hebrew, there's a difference between what I'm calling passive participles and passive verbs.

In בניין פעל, that difference isn't just in meaning. It's in form too. The form כתוּב is the passive participle of the verb כתב in פעל.
נכתב, conversely, is the passive verb is נכתב.

In English, you can't really make the distinction as easily: Both forms would be translated as "is written."

But, "שכתוב בו", because it's an adjective, just indicates that the words are there in the article.
"שנכתב בו", because it's a verb, indicates that the words are being written now or that someone wrote in the past (because נפעל for הוא sounds the same in the present and past).

In other the words, "נכתב" (like any verb, of course) makes us recognize the action. Obviously, if I say the "the words are written," you know cognitively that someone wrote them. But, when I say "כתוב" (again, like adjective), I'm focusing the state in which the words are in -- not the action that made them that way.

It's like the difference between let's say, "The doors to the hall are closed [right before the beginning of speeches]" vs. "The doors to the hall are closed, because a speech is going on." Hopefully, you can see the difference.



> We have written above : "And, also, there really are no past participles AT ALL in Hebrew."



Oops! Sorry. I meant (passive) participle. I knew I was gonna make a mistake like that somewhere...



> Is there a past participle with the same meaning as "מחובר" and through which we could say "*** המחשב היה" ?



I'm not sure what you're asking. But, does the fact that I made that mistake with "past participle" clear things up?


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## babaz

Aoyama said:


> that is why "risqué" is also used in English (probably in Hebrew too, but pedantic), in a restricted meaning (like "osé" in French, which would also pose a problem).
> The word "touché" is also used in English (originally from fencing), probably in Hebrew also.


Thanks 



ks20495 said:


> You say "נראֶה\נדמֶה שרינה חיברה את המאמר".
> 
> If you say, "רינה נראית\נדימת כאילו היא חיברה את המאמר", that means "Rina looks/seems like she wrote the article." (not what you're trying to say lol.)


But then, you're cheating! 



> As I've said, in modern Hebrew, there's a difference between what I'm calling passive participles and passive verbs.
> In English, you can't really make the distinction as easily: Both forms would be translated as "is written."
> 
> But, "שכתוב בו", because it's an adjective, just indicates that the words are there in the article.
> "שנכתב בו", because it's a verb, indicates that the words are being written now or that someone wrote in the past (because נפעל for הוא sounds the same in the present and past).
> 
> In other the words, "נכתב" (like any verb, of course) makes us recognize the action. Obviously, if I say the "the words are written," you know cognitively that someone wrote them. But, when I say "כתוב" (again, like adjective), I'm focusing the state in which the words are in -- not the action that made them that way.
> 
> It's like the difference between let's say, "The doors to the hall are closed [right before the beginning of speeches]" vs. "The doors to the hall are closed, because a speech is going on." Hopefully, you can see the difference.
> 
> In בניין פעל, that difference isn't just in meaning. It's in form too. The form כתוּב is the passive participle of the verb כתב in פעל.
> נכתב, conversely, is the passive verb is נכתב.


THANKS !!!

"Ultimately", does this mean that we could also write :
"הספר כתוּב על-ידי שמואל"
instead of :
"הספר נכתב על-ידי שמואל" ?

_Adjectiver des phrases...
En français, le corollaire pourrait éventuellement être :
"Le livre, écrit par Victor."
"Le livre ayant été écrit par Victor."
Quoique s'ajoute ici une question d'antériorité..._

Finally, have all hebrew verbs a such passive participle ?
If so, could you please provide the appropriate correlation table (as you have done for the verbs at http://forum.wordreference.com/showpost.php?p=10684081&postcount=4) ?



> I'm not sure what you're asking. But, does the fact that I made that mistake with "past participle" clear things up?


My mistake... sorry.


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## ks20495

> "Ultimately", does this mean that we could also write :
> "הספר כתוּב על-ידי שמואל"
> instead of :
> "הספר נכתב על-ידי שמואל" ?



No, you can't really. And that isn't anything special Hebrew. 

In English, to go back to my example, if I say "The door is closed by the guard," then "is closed" automatically becomes a verb. Compare that to, let's say, "The door is closed, because the guard closed it." You can see how adding "by the guard" changes "is closed" into a verb. 

It's the same in Hebrew -- only, with פעל, the distinction is built in to the forms themselves. 



> Finally, have all hebrew verbs a such passive participle ?
> If so, could you please provide the appropriate correlation table (as you have done for the verbs at http://forum.wordreference.com/showp...81&postcount=4) ?



So, only transitive verbs can have a passive participle. That's because only transitive verbs (in all languages) can be expressed in the passive. (If you want a more detailed linguistic explanation of that, just ask.)

So, let's do a rundown of intransitive verbs: הלך, for example, is intransitive. There is no *הלוּך or *נהלך, for that matter.

As I stated, some verbs in נפעל are not the passive of verbs of פעל. For example, נכנס (to enter) is not the passive of the verb כנס (to gather). This doesn't create an issue for the verb in נפעל, because *all נפעל verbs are intransitive*. But, it does create a problem for the פעל verb (if it's transitive)--like כנס. Theoretically, the passive of כנס should be נכנס. But that space is already occupied by נכנס-enter. So, there is no passive _verb_ for כנס. HOWEVER, it does have a passive participle: כנוּס (a little formal though).

Also, all verbs in התפעל are intransitive. So, they don't have passive participles.

All verbs in פיעל and הופעל have them. But, in a few cases, the meaning of the passive participle has drifted slightly from the meaning of the verb (sort of like how 'tired' no longer implies that someone actually 'tired you'). An example of this is מסוכן. It comes from the verb סיכן (to endanger) and, thus, should logically mean "endangered." But, the meaning has drifted to "dangerous." (So, when we want to say endangered, we have to say בסיכון (lit., in endangerment).

Beyond that, I also have to say some intransitive verbs in פעל don't have a פעוּל participle. In those cases, we often DO use the נפעל form. This includes the verb בחר. To say, for example, the "Chosen People," we say "העם הנבחר." (The word בחור does exist--as a noun that means "young man." That's probably why it doesn't exist as a passive participle.) Unfortunately, I can't really give you any ways to learn these verbs.


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## babaz

ks20495 said:


> No, you can't really. And that isn't anything special Hebrew.
> 
> In English, to go back to my example, if I say "The door is closed by the guard," then "is closed" automatically becomes a verb. Compare that to, let's say, "The door is closed, because the guard closed it." You can see how adding "by the guard" changes "is closed" into a verb.
> 
> It's the same in Hebrew -- only, with פעל, the distinction is built in to the forms themselves.



"The door is closed by the guard" : הדלת נסגרת על ידי השומר
"The door is closed, because the guard closed it" :  הדלת סגורה כי השומר סגר אותה

It's good ?



> So, only transitive verbs can have a passive participle. That's because only transitive verbs (in all languages) can be expressed in the passive. (If you want a more detailed linguistic explanation of that, just ask.)
> 
> So, let's do a rundown of intransitive verbs: הלך, for example, is intransitive. There is no *הלוּך or *נהלך, for that matter.
> 
> As I stated, some verbs in נפעל are not the passive of verbs of פעל. For example, נכנס (to enter) is not the passive of the verb כנס (to gather). This doesn't create an issue for the verb in נפעל, because *all נפעל verbs are intransitive*. But, it does create a problem for the פעל verb (if it's transitive)--like כנס. Theoretically, the passive of כנס should be נכנס. But that space is already occupied by נכנס-enter. So, there is no passive _verb_ for כנס. HOWEVER, it does have a passive participle: כנוּס (a little formal though).
> 
> Also, all verbs in התפעל are intransitive. So, they don't have passive participles.
> 
> All verbs in פיעל and הופעל have them. But, in a few cases, the meaning of the passive participle has drifted slightly from the meaning of the verb (sort of like how 'tired' no longer implies that someone actually 'tired you'). An example of this is מסוכן. It comes from the verb סיכן (to endanger) and, thus, should logically mean "endangered." But, the meaning has drifted to "dangerous." (So, when we want to say endangered, we have to say בסיכון (lit., in endangerment).
> 
> Beyond that, I also have to say some intransitive verbs in פעל don't have a פעוּל participle. In those cases, we often DO use the נפעל form. This includes the verb בחר. To say, for example, the "Chosen People," we say "העם הנבחר." (The word בחור does exist--as a noun that means "young man." That's probably why it doesn't exist as a passive participle.) Unfortunately, I can't really give you any ways to learn these verbs.


Ok, it's very clear.

Simply : how can I know when the passive participle is according to the scheme "כנוּס" or "מעויף" or the fictive "נהלך" ?

Thank you *very* much


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## ks20495

> "The door is closed by the guard" : הדלת נסגרת על ידי השומר
> "The door is closed, because the guard closed it" : הדלת סגורה כי השומר סגר אותה
> 
> It's good ?



Yes!



> Ok, it's very clear.
> 
> Simply : how can I know when the passive participle is according to the scheme "כנוּס" or "מעויף" or the fictive "נהלך" ?



Well, just think about it logically. נהלך would be the passive of הלך. So, let's translate that into English. הלכתי לחנות, for example, = I went to the store. OK. If I made that passive, it would be: I was gone by the store*. That makes no sense. (In English, we can say, "The store was gone to by me." But, that is not possible in Hebrew [or French, I'm assuming].)

The reason it's not logical is that הלך/go are intransitive verbs. The passive voice involves flipping the place in the sentence of the "agent" (the doer of the action) and the "patient" (the one to/on whom the action is done). With intransitive verbs, there is no patient. So, they cannot generally be expressed expressed in the passive voice.


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## babaz

ks20495 said:


> Well, just think about it logically. נהלך would be the passive of הלך. So, let's translate that into English. הלכתי לחנות, for example, = I went to the store. OK. If I made that passive, it would be: I was gone by the store*. That makes no sense. (In English, we can say, "The store was gone to by me." But, that is not possible in Hebrew [or French, I'm assuming].)
> 
> The reason it's not logical is that הלך/go are intransitive verbs. The passive voice involves flipping the place in the sentence of the "agent" (the doer of the action) and the "patient" (the one to/on whom the action is done). With intransitive verbs, there is no patient. So, they cannot generally be expressed expressed in the passive voice.


As you had said, I know this particular example ("נהלך") is senseless ; nevertheless, several "types" of passive participles seem to exist. The scheme "A-OU" of "KATOUV" or of "SAGOUR" appear to be a case among others.

For example, although it is also a passive participle, we say "מעויף" and not "עיוף". How to guess the correct from ?


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## ks20495

> As you had said, I know this particular example ("נהלך") is senseless ; nevertheless, several "types" of passive participles seem to exist. The scheme "A-OU" of "KATOUV" or of "SAGOUR" appear to be a case among others.
> 
> For example, although it is also a passive participle, we say "מעויף" and not "עיוף". How to guess the correct from ?



Ohh...Ok. So, the form is determined by the בניין. 

פעל => פעול
פיעל => מפועל
הפעיל => מופעל.

I do want to be clear that my titling these "passive participles" does reflect their usage in modern Hebrew. But, they probably aren't something you'd find in a grammar textbook--more like a linguistics journal.


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## babaz

ks20495 said:


> Ohh...Ok. So, the form is determined by the בניין.
> 
> פעל => פעול
> פיעל => מפועל
> הפעיל => מופעל.
> 
> I do want to be clear that my titling these "passive participles" does reflect their usage in modern Hebrew. But, they probably aren't something you'd find in a grammar textbook--more like a linguistics journal.


Thank youuuuuuuu !!

Akol (quite) besseder now !


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## Aoyama

> "The door is closed by the guard" : הדלת נסגרת על ידי השומר
> "The door is closed, because the guard closed it" : הדלת סגורה כי השומר סגר אותה


I'll allow myself to put my wee little grain of salt here. 
"The door is closed, because the guard closed it" : הדלת סגורה כי השומר *סגר* אותה
is it here "sagar" (soger/sagar/sgurah) or "sagra" ?


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## Carrot Ironfoundersson

Who? - שומר
What did *he* do? - (sagar)סגר 

A female guard would be שומר*ת

*סגר - sagar
סגרה - sagra


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