# じゃない / じゃないか / んじゃない / んじゃないか



## kyn

I'm not talking about the basic meaning of じゃない (as in "私は学生じゃない”), but its colloquial usage as a sentence ender (used a lot in conversations). 
Here, I have 2 questions:

1) I often hear people say (ん)じゃない with a raising tone, so, is (ん)じゃない (with raising tone) exactly the same as (ん)じゃないか?  

2) Is there any difference between んじゃない(か) and じゃない(か)? I once read somewhere that they are different, apparently one has the same meaning as "ね", and one is the same as "だろう". But I'm not sure.


----------



## cheshire

The difference between んじゃない(か) and じゃない(か) is reducible to that of　 の　(which you already well know)　and absence of it.

じゃないか's meaning is the same as a tag question.


----------



## kyn

Could you explain more? Are they different in meaning? Can they be used interchangeably?


----------



## Flaminius

Let me create example pairs to contrast between じゃない (with rising intonation towards the end) and じゃないか.  If I am addressing a wrong problem, please let me know.

1. 彼は学生じゃない。
2. 彼は学生じゃないか。

In Sentence 1, the speaker presents to the hearer a speculation that he is a student.  The hearer is supposed to provide a yes or no as an answer.  The assumed answer is, yes.  *cheshire*'s mention to tag questions may be in relation to this function of じゃない.

The speculative force of じゃない makes an utterance humble assertion in presence of a hearer whom the speaker is supposed to hold in high regards.  Being unsure seems to me implicitly a ready concession of one's opinion when encountered with another by someone with more authority.

Sentence 2 can be taken with two different nuances.  When a short pause is applied between 学生 and じゃないか, the sentence often sounds an accusatory assertion.  The speaker may be irritated at the hearer's slow uptake for not working about the obvious.  A pause between 学生じゃない and か (this may be even shorter than the first) turns the utterance into a near-monologue speculation.


----------



## kyn

kyn said:


> Is there any difference between んじゃない(か) and じゃない(か)? I once read somewhere that they are different, apparently one has the same meaning as "ね", and one is the same as "だろう". But I'm not sure.


What about that?


----------



## Flaminius

This question also consists of two implicit subsystems.  First, if a verb precedes じゃない, ん is a mandatory constituent for the verb to be connected with じゃない.  For instance, a speculative construction for 雨が降る is invariably 雨が降る*ん*じゃないか (or more formally 雨が降る*の*ではないか; cf. *cheshire* _supra_ #2).

Second, if a noun precedes じゃない, ん or の is part of なん (なの), which is extensively used as 強い断定 (strong assertion).  I hasten to add that this construction is used so generously that its emphatic value is rather inflated.  In other words, じゃない and んじゃない can be often used interchangeable without causing much difference in nuances.


----------



## cheshire

Flaminius said:
			
		

> This question also consists of two implicit subsystems. First, if a verb precedes じゃない, ん is a mandatory constituent for the verb to be connected with じゃない. For instance, a speculative construction for 雨が降る is invariably 雨が降る*ん*じゃないか (or more formally 雨が降る*の*ではないか; cf. *cheshire* _supra_ #2).



The red part is incorrect. It's not mandatory.

ex. 元気をだせよ。ぼくたちがいるじゃないか！



> Second, if a noun precedes じゃない, ん or の is part of なん (なの), which is extensively used as 強い断定 (strong assertion).


I'd say it's opposite. The one without の is more assertive. ぼくたちがいるじゃないか is felt more assertive than ぼくたちがいるのじゃないか. With the former sentence, the speaker is sure of their own presence; in the latter, the speakr is wondering about their presence (they are laboratory sentences, though).


----------



## Flaminius

cheshire said:


> The red part is incorrect. It's not mandatory.
> 
> ex. 元気をだせよ。ぼくたちがいるじゃないか！



Okay, I'd probably better reorganise the verb subsystem of じゃないか.

1. speculation (immediately following a verb + _-no_ or _-n_)
明日は雨が降るんじゃないか
That it will rain tomorrow is presented as a rather unsubstantiated opinion of the speaker.

2. reminder (immediately following a verb)
強く引っ張ったら破けるじゃないか
That something will break at a strong tug is presented as what the hearer should be well aware of.  Your example ぼくたちがいるじゃないか also falls under this category.

3. inducement (immediately following a verb + _-yō_)
早く出かけようじゃないか
Let's go out now.
Ah, I was not aware of the third sense till now.  



> Second, if a noun precedes じゃない, ん or の is part of なん (なの), which is extensively used as 強い断定 (strong assertion).
> 
> 
> 
> I'd say it's opposite. The one without の is more assertive. ぼくたちがいるじゃないか is felt more assertive than ぼくたちがいるのじゃないか. With the former sentence, the speaker is sure of their own presence; in the latter, the speakr is wondering about their presence (they are laboratory sentences, though).
Click to expand...

I was rather comparing じゃない and なんじゃない when they are preceded by a noun, but you have a point here.
1. 彼は学生なんじゃないか
2. 彼は学生じゃないか (rising intonation)

Sentence 1 sounds less sure of his being a student than 2.  It may be that a strong assertion, when governed by a negation, turns into a strong doubt.


----------



## cheshire

「牛乳！」と言ったらそれを解釈するのは状況によるわけで、「いつものように机の上にこぼれた牛乳を拭ってくれ」「牛乳パックを手渡してくれ」「牛乳を一本買ってきて」「また牛乳かよ、たまにはオレンジジュースが飲みたい」などいろいろな意味になりえます。

Why don't you...? と言ったら文字通りに「なぜ...しないのか？」とたずねる場合と、そこから意を汲んで「...してください」という意味にもなりえます。「牛乳！」との違いは「慣用表現になっているか、そうでないか」です。

まさに英語の Why don't you...? 構文が「じゃないか」に相当します。


----------



## Tejano Rafael

cheshire said:


> Why don't you...? と言ったら文字通りに「なぜ...しないのか？」とたずねる場合と、そこから意を汲んで「...してください」という意味にもなりえます。「牛乳！」との違いは「慣用表現になっているか、そうでないか」です。
> 
> まさに英語の Why don't you...? 構文が「じゃないか」に相当します。



一方では英語の Why don't you ...? は文書にするとちょっと曖昧かも知れないが多分上の「牛乳！」と同様に文脈によってわかると思います。他方ではしゃべってる時に曖昧どころか。それは抑揚によってはっきりわかる。英語を話してる時には必ず否定の言葉を強める。だから　Why *don't* you go? は「なんで行かないの？」の文字通り否定疑問にしかなりえない。でも、否定言葉を強めなければ（というと動詞が強くなっていると） Why don't you *go*? が文字通りの否定にならない。否定の言葉が強めていないため、これが慣用語の「行ったらどう？」という提案の意味にしか取れない。

日本語で抑揚は意味を決める役がそれほどある？それとも人間関係とか状況とかで違うように聞こえる？例えば、合気道道場で先輩が後輩に技を直しているとき「頭を左に回さないと体は左に行かない（ん）じゃない（か）」という時にそのせりふをやさしいから厳しい順にするとどうなりますか？やって見ますが直してくれる？
１．頭を左に回さないと体は左に行かないんじゃない（調子を上げる）
２．頭を左に回さないと体は左に行かないんじゃないか（調子を上げる）
３．頭を左に回さないと体は左に行かないじゃない（調子を下げる）
４．頭を左に回さないと体は左に行かないじゃないか（調子を下げる）

その「ん」があるともちょっと丁寧に聞こえるかなとちょっとやさしいと思っているが、全然自信がないんだ。「ん」がないと「ほら！先週教えたじゃないか！」のようになるからと思ってた。「か」があってもなくても個人的な癖ぐらいと思ってたがどちかと言うと強いでしょうか。後は、調子を上げるか下げるかによってかなり違うと思いますが。でも、先輩が後輩の技を直すと調子を下げるのが普通かも知れない。それなら、せりふ１.かせりふ２.を「調子を下げる」と組んだほうがちょうど真ん中になっていいでしょうか。


----------



## Tejano Rafael

Flaminius said:


> Okay, I'd probably better reorganise the verb subsystem of じゃないか.
> 
> 1. speculation (immediately following a verb + _-no_ or _-n_)
> 明日は雨が降るんじゃないか
> That it will rain tomorrow is presented as a rather unsubstantiated opinion of the speaker.



I assume from your translation that you intend this to have rising intonation? Could this be translated as "Isn't it supposed to rain tomorrow?" (rising intonation = somewhat unsure)?

But with falling intonation in Japanese, wouldn't it more likely mean something like, "So let's stop with this nonsense about going to the zoo."? (In English, falling intonation with "Isn't it supposed to rain tomorrow?" would possibly indicate either sarcasm or irritation--at least disagreement--and would probably be used in the sense of "So let's stop with this nonsense about going to the zoo.")

I had been under the impression that dropping the 「ん」 in these situations sounded more assertive, as *Cheshire* has suggested. An example I heard recently was 痛いじゃないか！which sounded rather angry and aggressive to me. Could age be a factor? Is it possible that the younger the speaker, the less likely one is to hear の （ん） after a verb (or い形容詞)? 



Flaminius said:


> 2. reminder (immediately following a verb)
> 強く引っ張ったら破けるじゃないか
> That something will break at a strong tug is presented as what the hearer should be well aware of. *(Cheshire's) *example ぼくたちがいるじゃないか also falls under this category.


Implying falling intonation? Is this the same as in English (falling intonation) "Don't you know that will break if you pull on it that hard?", which implies the speaker is scolding the person doing the pulling? (ほら、破けるじゃないか。) Does the lack of 「ん」 here following the verb indicate irritation, hence used with falling intonation?



Flaminius said:


> 3. inducement (immediately following a verb + _-yō_)
> 早く出かけようじゃないか
> Let's go out now.
> Ah, I was not aware of the third sense till now.


Meaning we non-native speakers of Japanese would be well advised to fuggedaboudit? 



Flaminius said:


> I was rather comparing じゃない and なんじゃない when they are preceded by a noun, but you have a point here.
> 1. 彼は学生なんじゃないか
> 2. 彼は学生じゃないか (rising intonation)
> 
> Sentence 1 sounds less sure of his being a student than 2.  It may be that a strong assertion, when governed by a negation, turns into a strong doubt.


So, <noun>なんだ is assertive in positive construction, but doesn't sound so much so in the negative (<noun>なんじゃないか)? Are you implying falling intonation for sentence 1 (with 「なん」)? Since sentence 2 has rising intonation (without 「ん」）, should we take this to mean that here with a noun you are using the presence or lack of 「ん」 in just the opposite manner as with the verbs above?

I'm wondering if intonation is more important than construction. E.g.,
彼は学生じゃないか (rising intonation) = He's a student, isn't he*? *(Question mark indicates rising intonation, showing uncertainty)
彼は学生じゃないか (falling intonation) = He's a student, isn't he*. *(Period indicates falling intonation, expecting agreement)

Please excuse me for being so thick.


----------



## cheshire

「の」（ん）を間に挿入すること自体がある機能を果たすわけで、それは（１）緩和表現を作るため、（２）ある感情をこめるため、です。（１)を（２）のなかに含めてもいいですがね。「牛乳」の例で指摘したように、言葉って常に多義性を担わせようと思ったら恣意的にできるんですよ。最近はやりの「どんだけー」も解釈しようと思えばいくらでもできますからね。それと一緒ですよ。
だから、私が今までずっと主張してきたのは、われわれが基づくべき立場は「還元主義」だ、と。数少ない語義素を学習者に提示し、そこから解釈させるやり方です。学習者の労力も減るし、頭もすっきりします。

「の」を挿入する理由は（１）推定をさしはさむとき、（２）なしだと断定的なので緩和するとき、（３）慣用的、（４）口調上の理由　ぐらいでしょうね。

抑揚の質問が出ましたが、英語とほとんど同じと考えていいんじゃないでしょうか。


			
				Rafael said:
			
		

> その「ん」があるともちょっと丁寧に聞こえるかなとちょっとやさしいと思っているが、全然自信がないんだ。「ん」がないと「ほら！先週教えたじゃない か！」のようになるからと思ってた。「か」があってもなくても個人的な癖ぐらいと思ってたがどちかと言うと強いでしょうか。後は、調子を上げるか下げるか によってかなり違うと思いますが。でも、先輩が後輩の技を直すと調子を下げるのが普通かも知れない。それなら、せりふ１.か せりふ２.を「調子を下げる」と組んだほうがちょうど真ん中になっていいでしょうか。



....ない*の*。...と思ってた*の*。...強い*の*でしょうか。...思う*の*ですが。...しれない*の*。...なっていい*の*でしょうか。

赤字の「の」は、女性がもっぱら使う「の」です。これを聞いたら女性がしゃべっているとわかります。黒太字の「の」は性にかかわらず使えます。こちらはいわゆる緩和表現をつくる助詞です。（１）推定か、（２）自己抑制的で控えめな表現になります。後者はちょうど英語話者が　would を使うのと同じ感じだと思ってよいでしょう。
もちろん、ただ音の響きのよさというだけで「の」を入れたり入れなかったりの場合もあります。​


----------

