# Addressing yourself first



## Alxmrphi

Do you think it is rude to address yourself first when talking to a third person?

"Hey mike, me and John went shopping today!"

Someone mentioned that it was rude to do that, but in no way shape or form do I find this rude or would even pick up on it, views from other cultures please ?


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## Span_glish

There is even a saying in Spanish:
*El burro por delante*.
Which literally it means:  The dunkey goes in front/first.
In English:  To put the cart before the horse.

Yes, it's rude, or at least my mom used to say so 
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=6926


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## Alxmrphi

Do you find it rude personally?


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## Span_glish

It's more like a habit or that little voice in my head... j/k.  It might sound funny but if I'm speaking in Spanish, I tend to correct myself or the other person because I find it rude.  But, I find myself making that mistake in English quiet often.


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## Alxmrphi

I just don't see, I mean ok, letting people pass through a door first, and holding a door for someone, it's polite, and rude to barge in and go first. Talking and using names in a sentence, I can't quite see how it, or, hmm, what there is about it, to find rude.


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## Chazzwozzer

Alex_Murphy said:


> "Hey mike, me and John went shopping today!"


Hey Alex,

I'm kind of confused. Don't we normally say "I" instead of "me" in this sentence? Because if we take out "John" then the sentence becomes "Me went shopping." I might probably have missed a point here. What do you think?



Alex_Murphy said:


> Someone mentioned that it was rude to do that, but in no way shape or form do I find this rude or would even pick up on it, views from other cultures please ?


My British-educated teacher used to correct if somebody used "I" in the first place and always pointed out that "I" must go at the end. I never thought it was because it's rude, good to know.

No, it's not a rude thing to mention about yourself first in my culture and I never find it so.


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## ireney

Well I suppose it depends on the situation doesn't it? I mean in a more formal context it would certainly seem rude and I would consider it rude in even informal conversations if the discussion was about an "accomplishment".

"I and Mike are going on the bar" is ok
"Myself (I) and mr Jones will be happy to join you" is a no-no
"It was me and Bob who managed to solve it" is absolutely rude.


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## curly

Huh i was taught that it wasn't rude it was just plain wrong.
that me and john is wrong because we don't say me went shopping(as pointed out), john and me is wrong (for the same reason) i and john is also wrong(i don't know why) that there is only john and I.


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## Alxmrphi

> "It was me and Bob who managed to solve it" is absolutely rude.



Wow, I have picked up on something, I need to be more careful
Chazz..

John and I - is correct English
Me and John - isn't as correct, but it's used so much, it's become fine, I wouldn't have any quarms (remember Chazz) about saying that more people would say "me and John" instead of "John and I"..ESPECIALLY with the younger generation.


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## Chazzwozzer

Yep, thanks for the info.  (Quarms-haven't forgotten yet, nice word.  )



> i and john is also wrong(i don't know why)


When you say it's wrong, do you actually mean "rude" or "grammatical mistake"?


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## curly

I mean grammatical mistake


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## lsp

Span_glish,  to put the cart before the horse has quite a different meaning, which is that things must be done in a proper order. EXAMPLE: "They had posters, slogans and ads, but the guy hasn't even agreed he's running for president. That's putting the cart before the horse!"


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## Alxmrphi

Is it American lsp? I've never heard of it before, then again in work I was surrounded by older people who CONSTANTLY said phrases I didn't understand and constantly had to ask about. So possibly it is


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## lsp

Alex_Murphy said:


> Is it American lsp? I've never heard of it before, then again in work I was surrounded by older people who CONSTANTLY said phrases I didn't understand and constantly had to ask about. So possibly it is



I can vouch for American English, but I can't claim to speak on behalf of "older people"  Anyway, it's not so uncommon that Span_glish hadn't come across it.

And I guess _quarms_ is an inside joke, but for everyone else, the word is _qualms_.

Lastly, when you say, "Me and John - isn't as correct, but it's used so much, it's become fine," I'm not sure what population segment you intend to represent. It isn't "fine."


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## Alxmrphi

Enough to say to my knowledge, I might've heard it under 10 times in real life, in my entire life. I've met a lot of people


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## Span_glish

Thanks for the correction LSP, that was the only one I could think of. 

To answer Alex's question on why it's rude, think of it as the same rule on why you say thank you/welcome, why you open a door for someone (whether is to assist them or to be polite), etc.
To me, it's proper Spanish/English that you're not necessarily forced to follow but it's always nice to.
If I say: I and XXX, it's almost like you're giving more importance to "you" and being disrespectful to the other person.  At least that's how I see it.


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## lsp

Alex_Murphy said:


> Enough to say to my knowledge, I might've heard it under 10 times in real life, in my entire life. I've met a lot of people



Every year you'll meet more people, and read more, etc., and in 10 years you'll know more idioms. So will I. Anyway, I googled UK websites only and got 214,000 results.


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## Alxmrphi

That's not a lot though, is it?


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## badgrammar

I also learned that it is grammatically incorrect to say "I and John" (as it would be incorrect "Moi et toi").  It might be a form of politeness that was forced on the language - perhaps a touch of chivalry?  (although it applies to all sexes).  

It's just one of those things...  But doesn't that exist in other languages?  DOn't other languages have that "you-before-me thing?"?


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## Alxmrphi

Well, if as you stated, French does, then, I presume so.


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## lsp

badgrammar said:


> I also learned that it is grammatically incorrect to say "I and John" (as it would be incorrect "Moi et toi").  It might be a form of politeness that was forced on the language - perhaps a touch of chivalry?  (although it applies to all sexes).
> 
> It's just one of those things...  But doesn't that exist in other languages?  DOn't other languages have that "you-before-me thing?"?



In Italian it is not unusual to say io e te. I think partly it's because it has a better sound than it would in the reverse order, but I may just be used to it. In the same way it sounds awful to me in English, where it is still considered bad form.


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## badgrammar

I should have said doesn't that exist in "many other languages"?...


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## Alxmrphi

Oh yeah, I remember the Pimsleur course telling me about "Io e...qualcuno".
So that also might help your understanding, badgrammar, different in some, sometimes good, sometimes bad.


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## lsp

badgrammar said:


> I should have said doesn't that exist in "many other languages"?...



I can only speak for English and Italian, and I thought it was interesting that Italian would differ in this way from French.


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## Maja

In Serbian it is not rude, and I guess no one would get offended, but it is  probable ill-mannered (although people use it all the time). 
So the correct  way (grammatically and socially) is to name other people before yourself.


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## Heba

I never thought about that. Personally, I do not find it rude. I do not think it is rude in colloquial Egyptian Arabic either. Actually it would sound (linguistically or grammatically) a bit awkward or uncommon if you name other people before yourself.

In MSA, both are grammatically correct since the ''and'' in Arabic generally indicates that what comes before and what comes after are equal.


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## danielfranco

I don't think it's grammatically incorrect to address oneself first, in English or Spanish. But it is a custom in both Mexico and Texas to place the other people in the sentence first. I don't know if it's out of courtesy, or if it has a deeper "social-glue kind of thingy" meaning. It's just done.
Like, for example, nobody cares that "asma" in Spanish is a femenine noun, everyone will say "el asma" (male noun) because we don't like the sound of "la asma". There's too many "A's" together and that doesn't please the hispanic ear.


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## ILT

In Mexico it is rude to address oneself first. When kids begin talking, they sometimes say:

Yo y Javier jugamos en los columpios

and the adult present will immediately correct that to:

Javier y yo jugamos en los columpios.

Gramatically they are the same, but we are used to put and mention others first out of politeness. At least I think it is just politeness, just like letting the other person go through the foor first.


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## Victoria32

curly said:


> Huh i was taught that it wasn't rude it was just plain wrong.
> that me and john is wrong because we don't say me went shopping(as pointed out), john and me is wrong (for the same reason) i and john is also wrong(i don't know why) that there is only john and I.


 
Yes, exactly! My Mum used to go spare if we got that wrong and said for instance "me and Carol were climbing trees today".
"Carol and I" she would rebuke, and woe betide the person who said "Mum _you and Carol_ were climbing trees?" in a voice of mock surprise...


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## Alxmrphi

You would be EXTREMELY surprised to hear any child of today in an informal conversation, to say "Peter and I are going to the shops"..that would be laughed at in schools in the UK.


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## Outsider

Alex_Murphy said:


> Do you think it is rude to address yourself first when talking to a third person?
> 
> "Hey mike, me and John went shopping today!"


I don't think we care about that in Portuguese. It's just not an issue. "You and I", "I and you", we're saying the same in another way.


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## Outsider

danielfranco said:


> Like, for example, nobody cares that "asma" in Spanish is a femenine noun, everyone will say "el asma" (male noun) because we don't like the sound of "la asma". There's too many "A's" together and that doesn't please the hispanic ear.


The reason for using "el" before "asma" is euphonic, and it does not change the gender of the word.


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## LuvDancin

Maja said:


> In Serbian it is not rude, and I guess no one would get offended, but it is probable ill-mannered (although people use it all the time).


It's not rude in Slovene too. I don't even think I would notice who's meantined first   Actually, I would never realize it could be rude, if I hadn't come across that topic. What's funny to me is, that no one of my english teachers ever mentioned that, I don't think. Well anyway good to know, I'll keep it in mind.


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## kosicanka

Well, the addressing should be like this in Slovakia (according to good manners):

usually "I" is put behind all other people mentioned: Mary and I won the beach volleyball cup.

only when we talk about something bad done, then "I" is put first: I and John broke the window.

But this isn't followed strictly although it's considered the best way to address more people in the sentence. Hope I explained it clearly 

So in English both "XXX and I" and "me and XXX" are grammatically correct and also polite, right?


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## lsp

kosicanka said:


> So in English both "XXX and I" and "me and XXX" are grammatically correct and also polite, right?


As you can see, the English speaking posters in this thread have varying opinions about that.


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## Outsider

There are four possibilities in English:

XXX and I  + verb - 100% grammatically correct
I and XXX + verb - grammatically correct, but considered impolite
XXX and me + verb - grammatically objectionable, but very common in the spoken language
Me and XXX + verb - grammatically objectionable, _and_ considered impolite.


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## badgrammar

I really believe that "Me and Mary went swimmming" or "Me and you should go out sometime", "I and John ate dinner" are all, strictly speaking, grammatically_* in*_correct in English.  Which is not to say that people never say those things.  But they do not follow the rules of grammar.

Do any native speakers of English differ on that point? 



kosicanka said:


> Well, the addressing should be like this in Slovakia (according to good manners):
> 
> usually "I" is put behind all other people mentioned: Mary and I won the beach volleyball cup.
> 
> only when we talk about something bad done, then "I" is put first: I and John broke the window.
> 
> But this isn't followed strictly although it's considered the best way to address more people in the sentence. Hope I explained it clearly
> 
> So in English both "XXX and I" and "me and XXX" are grammatically correct and also polite, right?


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## Outsider

Which grammatical rules do they fail to follow?


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## Alxmrphi

The way no young people would ever say "whom" in English, is exactly the same thing as why they would never say "Bill and I".. it's one of those things from our language that is dying out.

99% of teenagers in the UK at least, in my opinion, wouldn't even realise other people find it rude to address yourself first.

Like me, I didn't have a clue until someone mentioned it to me on these forums, and there are plenty plenty of people less educated than me.


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## Kelly B

I was taught that_ John and I _is correct before the verb, but _me and John_ is correct after it. It improves your grammar:

_John and I_ are playing a game with Mary.
Mary is playing a game with _me and John_.

Many people say "Mary is playing a game with _John and I_", but this is not strictly correct. _I _is not supposed to be used as a direct object, any more than _me _is supposed to be used as a subject. If you put I or me as close as possible to the verb, you'll know which one to use.

Am I certain that this is the rule? No. I agree that the starting "John and I" does sound more polite. In that case "John and me" after the verb would also be more polite, and that's just not how I learned to say it.

Edited to add: kosicanka's comment is interesting, because the good/bad distinction means it's clearly a matter of politeness in that country. I wonder whether other languages also choose the order of direct objects based on politeness as well?


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## Alxmrphi

Did you go to a private school Kelly? Our public schools never taught us that, which I suppose is quite shocking considering how other people might think someone being rude when they use "me and John" instead of "John and I", but we British are seen as arrogant anyway, so, probably expected from us.


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## badgrammar

Well, I will try find out if indeed it is a rule and not just a social convention that may be going out of style...  I think it is the former, but I may be wrong.

I recently heard my young American niece being corrected by her father for saying "me and Cara", so I am certain that this version is both in common usage and considered grammatically incorrect by many.

 I admit, Alex, that I also thought of the who/whom example as another example of how language is evolving.  Few people, myself included, use it "correctly".  

But _if_ it _is_ still a grammar rule, then (I personally think) it is good to know it (and to teach it).  Then people will speak the way they wish to, but will have a stronger command of the language, understand its subtleties, and be able to use it to their advantage


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## mjscott

Well, they still _do_ teach in public schools in California to put yourself last in the order of people either doing something or as objects of prepositions.
Examples:

John and I threw the ball.
Throw the ball to John and Me!
Let John and me through the gate!

I remember these were distinct grammar lessons (usually focusing on subjective/objective case). At the same time and through older peoples' corrections it was taught to put yourself last in the lineup.

It may be something they maintained on one side of the pond, whereas it has by the wayside on the other. Along with Murphy's observation, it has fallen into disuse as of late....

....The fact that I remember its _impoliteness factor_ more from teachers _saying_ it's impolite and adults _correcting_ me for it--and the fact that I don't recall it being written down as a hard-and-fast rule tends to make me believe it is a social politeness rather than a grammar rule.


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## jazyk

> Well, the addressing should be like this in Slovakia (according to good manners):
> 
> usually "I" is put behind all other people mentioned: Mary and I won the beach volleyball cup.
> 
> only when we talk about something bad done, then "I" is put first: I and John broke the window.
> 
> But this isn't followed strictly although it's considered the best way to address more people in the sentence. Hope I explained it clearly


This is the same thing I've read in grammar books in Brazil.  I try to follow it both in speaking and in writing.


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## maxiogee

Alex_Murphy said:


> You would be EXTREMELY surprised to hear any child of today in an informal conversation, to say "Peter and I are going to the shops"..that would be laughed at in schools in the UK.



Indeed. It is more likely to be announced that "mean peter're goin to the shops" — kids these days never speak in capitals


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## Alxmrphi

Couldn't agree more Tony!


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## panjandrum

Alex_Murphy said:


> You would be EXTREMELY surprised to hear any child of today in an informal conversation, to say "Peter and I are going to the shops"..that would be laughed at in schools in the UK.


I must protest in the strongest possible terms.
You are generalising to an unacceptable extent.
There are many, many children who will say "Peter and I are ...", "Mummy and I went ...", "Daddy and I are going to ..."

I accept that the "mean Britny" generation are working hard to eliminate what their grandparents consider correct, but they do not yet prevail ... ... ... ... here.


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## Alxmrphi

Maybe I am generalising a bit too much, but I seriously have never met a teenager/child that wasn't joking around putting on a posh voice, actually say (to the best of my knowledge) "Name and I".


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## panjandrum

Call any time, Alex, and I will let you speak to WMPG who, at six, is fully aware of the difference.  She knows how to dialect-switch between "school" and "correct".  For now, that still matters.

She is not entirely alone, though I guess that she is increasingly in a minority.


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## Alxmrphi

I am extremely pleased for her, I hope she never forgets that. My point only was, as you admitted, it's a very tiny minority, who realise the difference.


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## Vanda

We have a saying old people keep repeating to the newer generations when they insist in saying I and XX instead of XX and I: 

The donkey always come first!


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## mytwolangs

Me and john went shopping.
John and I went shopping. 

Equal politeness. "Me" sounds less significant even tho it is first. 
"I" sounds better, even tho it comes second.


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## Eugin

Vanda said:


> We have a saying old people keep repeating to the newer generations when they insist in saying I and XX instead of XX and I:
> 
> The donkey always come first!


 
Jaja, Vanda, it seems that being neighbours make us share some sayings, despite of the different languages!!!   

In Argentina we also have a saying with the personification of a donkey (poor little creature of God.... it´s not his fault he`s not as smart as a fox, right??? ) but it goes somehow different: "El burro adelante para que no se espante" (Somehow in English as: "The donkey in the front so that he doesn´t get scared"... not too logical, right?? )

Anyway, in Argentina it´s rude when people name themselves in the first place, but you hear, nevertheless, people using: "Yo y Pedro fuimos...", but usually you can guess they are not very well educated...


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## Span_glish

Hahaha





Eugin said:


> In Argentina we also have a saying with the personification of a donkey (poor little creature of God.... it´s not his fault he`s not as smart as a fox, right??? ) but it goes somehow different: "El burro adelante para que no se espante" (Somehow in English as: "The donkey in the front so that he doesn´t get scared"... not too logical, right?? )."


 
It's funny, I had never heard the full version, only: "el burro por delante".


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## kosicanka

jazyk said:


> This is the same thing I've read in grammar books in Brazil.  I try to follow it both in speaking and in writing.


Wow, interesting. So far, Brazil seems the only country which has the same system as Slovakia  
EDIT: Vanda wrote there is rule "Donkey always come first".   Maybe it's each one's personal taste, which addressing to use in Brazil.

Thanks all for making addressing in English clear


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## Alxmrphi

Well kosicanka... to an extent, it's not really an enforced rule, it's barely enforced for natives, nobody would EVER take offense if a foreigner said it, we'd understand, so there isn't a reason to worry! The majority of people won't pick up on it.


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## zebedee

badgrammar said:
			
		

> But _if_ it _is_ still a grammar rule, then (I personally think) it is good to know it (and to teach it). Then people will speak the way they wish to, but will have a stronger command of the language, understand its subtleties, and be able to use it to their advantage


Yes, it's the grammar rule that KellyB explained in Post nº 40. "I" is the subject of a verb and "me" is the object. You can't say "Me is going to the cinema" so you can't say "Me & Dave are going to the cinema" either. 
Then between a proper name and a pronoun, the proper name always goes first:
"Dave and you" not "you and Dave"
"Dave and him" not "him and Dave"
"Dave and I" not "I and Dave" (sounds even worse because of the 2 vowels together)



Alex_Murphy said:


> You would be EXTREMELY surprised to hear any child of today in an informal conversation, to say "Peter and I are going to the shops"..that would be laughed at in schools in the UK.



Laughed at by who(m)? By other kids who haven't been taught either that that's the grammatically correct way of saying it? 
I hope you're not implying that an educated adult would laugh at that correct construction. If so, I beg to differ. 

I think there are countless people who still wince at the expression: "Me and Dave went..." 
Even at an informal level, I'd still say "Dave 'n' I went..."


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## Alxmrphi

zebedee said:


> Laughed at by whom? By other kids who don't get taught either that that's the grammatically correct way of speaking?
> I hope you're not implying that an educated adult would laugh at that correct construction. If so, I beg to differ.
> 
> I think there are countless people who wince at the expression: "Me and Dave went..." Even at an informal level, I'd still say "Dave 'n' I went..."



Of course I mean kids! Why would an educated adult laugh at correct English?
Exactly, the kids who aren't taught it either, would find it really odd.


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## Outsider

zebedee said:


> Then between a proper name and a pronoun, the proper name always goes first:
> "Dave and you" not "you and Dave"
> "Dave and him" not "him and Dave"
> "Dave and I" not "I and Dave" (sounds even worse because of the 2 vowels together)


Why? What's "grammatical" about that?

P.S. What if my name is John, and I say "John and Dave went to the beach"? Is this O.K., since they're both proper nouns?


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## maxiogee

Outsider said:


> Why? What's "grammatical" about that?
> 
> P.S. What if my name is John, and I say "John and Dave went to the beach"? Is this O.K., since they're both proper nouns?



No, because one does not refer to oneself by name. 
I am Tony, but I do not write "Tony am glad to be here".


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## Outsider

But there's nothing stopping you from saying "Tony *is* glad to be here". Sometimes people talk like this to little children, for instance. (I'm not positive you do this in English, too, but I know they do it in Portuguese...)


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## hohodicestu

Hi,

I think it's rude to address yourself first because it's considered selfish.  It shows that you care more about yourself than anything or anybody else. I guess this is also a kind of tradition thing and it's been passing on from generations to generations. I'm no sure about other cultures, but in Mexico we always mention ourselves at the end of the list.


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## Victoria32

Outsider said:


> But there's nothing stopping you from saying "Tony *is* glad to be here". Sometimes people talk like this to little children, for instance. (I'm not positive you do this in English, too, but I know they do it in Portuguese...)


I had a German friend who always referred to himself in the third person when speaking English:  "Hans isn't married, Hans isn't crazy" he once said to me..


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## don maico

Its social etiquete thats all. I wouldnt go so far as to say its rude though


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## lsp

don maico said:


> Its social etiquete thats all. I wouldnt go so far as to say its rude though



I don't mean to sound flippant, but that doesn't explain your position to me, don maico. Hopefully I won't have to open another thread on etiquette. If it means, as I think it does, a code of polite behavior, than its absence is impolite, which to me means rude.


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