# g>k in Greek loanwords from Semitic



## CyrusSH

This sound change can be seen in Greek _κάμηλος_ "kámēlos", compare Arabic _jamal_ "camel", or probably Greek _κρίμα_ "kríma", compare Arabic _jarima_ "crime", what is the reason of this sound change?


----------



## Testing1234567

I don't think _κρίμα_ is a loanword.


----------



## sotos

If kamelos is attested some centuries before jamal, how you know that the origianl pronounciation was "jamal" and not "kamal"?


----------



## berndf

Semitic languages consistently spell it with _g. k_ occurs only in languages that got the word through Greek.


----------



## CyrusSH

There is also Sanskrit _kramela_ "camel": Sanskrit Dictionary for Spoken Sanskrit Akkadian _gammalu_ is almost certainly a loanword: Semitic etymology : Query result


----------



## berndf

The Sanskrit word is thought to be an indirect loan via Greek while the Akkadian word is thought to be a direct loan from West/Central Semitic.


----------



## CyrusSH

Could the Greek word be related to καμπύλος (kampúlos) "humpback" which has clearly an IE origin?


----------



## berndf

καμπύλος doesn't mean _humpback_.


----------



## CyrusSH

But according to wiktionary, Greek _καμπούρης_ "humpback" is from Turkish _kambur_, from Ancient Greek _καμπύλος_ (kampúlos).

I have read that _p_ can be lost before _l_, compare to Latin _laetus_: laetus - Wiktionary


----------



## berndf

CyrusSH said:


> But according to wiktionary, Greek _καμπούρης_ "humpback" is from Turkish _kambur_, from Ancient Greek _καμπύλος_ (kampúlos).


Just because Modern Greek _καμπούρης _is influenced by Ancient Greek _καμπύλος_ this doesn't mean that _καμπύλος_ has the same meaning as _καμπούρης_.
_
καμπύλος_ means _curved, curve, bent or hook,_ in Ancient and Modern Greek.


----------



## CyrusSH

What is the Ancient Greek word for "humpback"?


----------



## Badmar

Do you mean hunchback? If so it is is "ὁ κυφός"


----------



## Badmar

Sorry I meant hunchbacked and the word ὑβός had also been used in Theocritus works with the same meaning


----------



## CyrusSH

There are some different Ancient Greek words from proto-IE *_kh₂em-_ "to bend, to curve": Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/kh₂em- - Wiktionary _κμέλεθρον_ (kmélethron), _καμάρα_ (kamára), _κάμῑνος_ (kámīnos), _κάμπη_ (kámpē), ... I think it is possible that a similar word is used for a humpback animal.


----------



## CyrusSH

I think both κάμηλος "kámēlos" and κρίμα "kríma" have Greek origin and there is actually _k>g(j)_ in Central Semitic, there was probably the same sound change about this one: Proto-Germanic *klutto "clot" and Semitic root g-l-d "clot", it seems there is also similar sound change in Persian loanwords from Greek, like Persian _gomrok_ (Arabic _jumruk_) from Greek _κομμέρκιον_ (kommérkion), also Arabic _janfas_ "canvas"?

Of course the Akkadian word girisu "cherry" and Persian _gilas_ differ from Arabic _karaz_ and Ancient Greek _κέρᾰσος_ (kérasos).


----------



## CyrusSH

Badmar said:


> Do you mean hunchback? If so it is is "ὁ κυφός"



I mean the Ancient Greek word for "a rounded fleshy mass on a camel".


----------



## berndf

CyrusSH said:


> I think both κάμηλος "kámēlos" and κρίμα "kríma" have Greek origin and there is actually _k>g(j)_ in Central Semitic


Congratulations. You have managed to find the one explanation that makes least sense.


----------



## CyrusSH

berndf said:


> Congratulations. You have managed to find the one explanation that makes least sense.



Thanks, but please give an explanation of _g>k_ in Greek that makes most sense!


----------



## Treaty

CyrusSH said:


> Thanks, but please give an explanation of _g>k_ in Greek that makes most sense!


Confirmation bias.


----------



## berndf

Treaty said:


> Confirmation bias.


Not even that. It is just another far-fetched ad-hoc hypothesis constructed for no other reason than to construct a story where none exists.


----------



## Treaty

I meant he just saw one g>k in Greek + one entry in one Akkadian dictionary + one word in one C. Semitic language, and tries to extrapolate them to all of the languages, ignoring numerous words contrary to his conclusion. Anyway, good luck with him linking to this (and the "clot") thread for the next five years saying "as you see, I have discussed here and here" .


----------



## CyrusSH

I don't know what you want to deny, is Persian _gomrok_ (Arabic _jumruk_) from Greek _κομμέρκιον_ (kommérkion) or not? There was clearly _g>k_ sound change in some Arabic/Persian loanwords from Greek.


----------



## Treaty

I think it is from Turkish, around 1500AD. Even if it was directly from Greek, it wouldn't have changed much. There are tens (or hundreds) of Greek k borrowed as q/k in Aramaic and Arabic. On or two exceptions don't change this rule.


----------



## Perseas

CyrusSH said:


> I mean the Ancient Greek word for "a rounded fleshy mass on a camel".


ὕβος (=_hump_ of a camel), not to be confused with ὑβός (=humpbacked)

_Αἱ δὲ κάμηλοι ἴδιον ἔχουσι παρὰ τἆλλα τετράποδα τὸν καλούμενον *ὕβον* ἐπὶ τῷ νώτῳ._ (Aristotle, _The history of animals_)
_Camels have an exceptional organ wherein they differ from all other animals, and that is the so-called '*hump*' on their back_. (source)


----------

