# A Black Pope



## Everness

This was published today by the HoustonChronicle.com

_One school of thought has the next pope hailing from the church's population centers — Africa and Latin America. *Top contenders include Arinze, who would be the first black pope since the 5th century*, or the archbishops of Mexico, São Paulo or Tegucigalpa — Norberto Rivera Carrera, Cláudio Hummes and Oscar Andrés Rodríguez Maradiaga, respectively._

_Dr. Sebastian M.N. Osueke, political science instructor at Lee College in Baytown, also hails from Nigeria and has met Arinze._

_"He has a global vision of what it is to be a Catholic, to be a Christian. What it is to help the poor," Osueke said. His election "would elevate the whole black race, black culture. It would give us a place in the Catholic Church."
_

 Is the Catholic Church ready for a black Pope? Is the world ready for a black Pope? Are you ready for a black Pope?


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## julieb01

Hello Everness, why a black pope would be disturbing ? Especially there are more and more catholics in Africa and less and less in Europe.


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## cuchuflete

Pretend for a moment that I am from Mars. [I know, some of you just yawned, thinking, 'well he is, so what's the big deal?']

There is a religion.  It has principles and rules.  Some of these indicate a succession process.  All candidates for the top leadership position are members of the religion.  All candidates are, by their actions and words over many years, deemed to be devout and sincere.  

If these were true statements, would a sincere and devout member of the religion have concerns about nationality, or height, or weight, or "race", or eye color?  None of these factors should influence faith or leadership skills.

Just some random Martian thoughts,
Cuchuflete


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## Lancel0t

Well, IMHO, color or race is not a hindrance in the selection of Pope. What matters most is his dedication and sincerity on fulfilling the role of the Pope.


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## Everness

julieb01 said:
			
		

> Hello Everness, why a black pope would be disturbing ? Especially there are more and more catholics in Africa and less and less in Europe.



Hi julie, I didn't say I find it disturbing. Do you? After all, Arinze wouldn't be the first black pope. A great outcome of the election of a black pope would be that thousands or millions of us who say we are Christians (Catholic, Protestants, etc.) will finally have to confront our underlying racism. Julie: this is a win-win situation!


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## julieb01

I didn't say neither you find it disturbing. It was a general reflection. But can you explain me what is a win-win situation, I don't this expression. Thanks.


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## Everness

julieb01 said:
			
		

> I didn't say neither you find it disturbing. It was a general reflection. But can you explain me what is a win-win situation, I don't this expression. Thanks.



Oh, I see. I misinterpreted you. Why would it be a win-win situation? Everybody wins and no one loses. On the one hand, we would have a pope who represents the southern hemisphere where most Catholics live. Second, we would need to deal with our inner demons. Some of us who call ourselves Christians are bigots. Sometimes we don't know it (denial) or we choose not to know it (hypocrisy). Our racism raises its ugly head, when, for instance, our daughter decides to marry a white or a black guy, or a white or a black family moves next door. Choosing a black pope will also have the same effect!


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## julieb01

Sure, Everness, I totally agree with you. Maybe to have a black pope would change these mentalities but frankly I don't think the next pope will be black. Maybe south-American ...


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## Everness

julieb01 said:
			
		

> Sure, Everness, I totally agree with you. Maybe to have a black pope would change these mentalities but frankly I don't think the next pope will be black. Maybe south-American ...



I don't think so. It will be Italian and not a relatively young guy. Maybe next time around we'll have a pope who speaks the heavanly tongue!


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## supercrom

How about a Latin America pope... it's not really difficult to find an ideal archbishop to become a pope with most of the caracteristics Joannes Paulus had.

*CROM*


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## julieb01

It's again me Everness !! I don't understand (again !!!) what "heavanly tongue" mean. Help me please !


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## supercrom

julieb01 said:
			
		

> It's again me Everness !! I don't understand (again !!!) what "heavanly tongue" mean. Help me please !


 Excuse me for being so annoying, but... wouldn't it be "heavenly tongue" (< heaven)?

*CROM*


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## Everness

julieb01 said:
			
		

> It's again me Everness !! I don't understand (again !!!) what "heavanly tongue" mean. Help me please !



I misspelled it. It's heavenly tongue. There's a rumor that Spanish is going to be the official language in heaven. It's a rumor but just in case I always recommend people to learn it and practice it!


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## ceirun

Everness said:
			
		

> I misspelled it. It's heavenly tongue. There's a rumor that Spanish is going to be the official language in heaven. It's a rumor but just in case I always recommend people to learn it and practice it!


They say the same about Welsh too... although, funnily enough, it's only Welsh people who say it. 
I think that Spanish is a much more likely possibility, though. I wonder if they 'vosear' in heaven...


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## steffiegomez

I think (not sure) there is also another meaning for "black pope": a Jesuit. I wouldn't have a problem with any . The rumor in Mexico about Cardenal Norberto Rivera Carrera being the next pope is a bit stronge.You never know, Karol W. was not one of the strong candidates, it was a surprise for him also beeing elected pope. 
UN abrazo
Steffie


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## Outsider

Everness said:
			
		

> _One school of thought has the next pope hailing from the church's population centers — Africa and Latin America. *Top contenders include Arinze, who would be the first black pope since the 5th century*[...]_


_
Curious statement. I don't think there ever was a black Pope, actually. At least, I seriously doubt that there is evidence of there having been one.

About the topic, I think the race of the next Pope is quite irrelevant. It's the politics that will matter._


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## Everness

ceirun said:
			
		

> They say the same about Welsh too... although, funnily enough, it's only Welsh people who say it.
> I think that Spanish is a much more likely possibility, though. I wonder if they 'vosear' in heaven...



Como se dice "touche"?


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## ceirun

Everness said:
			
		

> Como se dice "touche"?


¿En galés? ...ni idea. Pero espero que sea un poco más corto que
_Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch. _
(Parece mentira pero hay una cuidad galesa con ese mismo nombre... en serio)
OK, volviendo al tema de un papa negro...


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## Everness

ceirun said:
			
		

> ¿En galés? ...ni idea. Pero espero que sea un poco más corto que
> _Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch. _
> (Parece mentira pero hay una cuidad galesa con ese mismo nombre... en serio)
> OK, volviendo al tema de un papa negro...



Espero que por esa ciudad no pase una vía ferroviaria. Si asi fuere, ¡pobre el hombre que tiene que anunciar a los pasajeros el nombre de esa estacion de tren!


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## cristóbal

I'd be 100% behind a black pope, just as I am 100% behind my black bishop at home. 

As far as black popes in the past, I was surprised too, but not terribly so.  North African churches and churches in Asia Minor were rather important in the early Church.  
Anyway, I did some research, and these are the names I found:
Victor I (A.D. 186-197),
Miltiades (A.D. 311-314) and
St. Gelasius (A.D. 492-496)

The Catholic Encyclopedia simply lists them as "native of Africa" but does not explicitly speak of black skin color (or any other skin color for that matter). All three were saints. 
I don't know how much we can be sure that these men were even African considering the evidence that the Encyclopedia provides (saying for example: _The assertion of the "Liber Pontificalis" that he was natione Afer is consequently taken by many to mean that he was of African origin, though Roman born. Others, however, interpreting natione Afer as "African by birth", explain Romanus natus as "born a Roman citizen"._)

So, it seems a bit propagandish and sketchy at best to claim they were black.  Either way, I don't find it hard to believe, just hard to prove.


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## lsp

cristóbal said:
			
		

> ... it seems a bit propagandish and sketchy at best to claim they were black.  Either way, I don't find it hard to believe, just hard to prove.


I have seen dozens of articles that say that Arinze would be "the first black pope of modern times." I googled that exact phrase and found several sources making that assertion.

Example: Even as Africans mourn the loss of a champion in John Paul II, streets and churches are filled with speculation surrounding the possibility that the first non-Italian pope in several centuries could be replaced by the first black pontiff of modern times.(http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=68&art_id=qw1112675581600B211&set_id=)


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## lauranazario

Everness said:
			
		

> Is the Catholic Church ready for a black Pope? Is the world ready for a black Pope? Are you ready for a black Pope?


I think the next Pope's skin color is a non-issue for Catholics; electing the best possible leader of the Roman Catholic Church IS the real issue.
Spoken like the Catholic I happen to be.

Saludos,
LN


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## cristóbal

lsp said:
			
		

> I have seen dozens of articles that say that Arinze would be "the first black pope of modern times." I googled that exact phrase and found several sources making that assertion.
> 
> Example: Even as Africans mourn the loss of a champion in John Paul II, streets and churches are filled with speculation surrounding the possibility that the first non-Italian pope in several centuries could be replaced by the first black pontiff of modern times.(http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=68&art_id=qw1112675581600B211&set_id=)



Yes, that's what we're talking about.
I don't understand, are you saying that contradicts what I said, or what?


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## aigle491

lauranazario said:
			
		

> I think the next Pope's skin color is a non-issue for Catholics; electing the best possible leader of the Roman Catholic Church IS the real issue.
> Spoken like the Catholic I happen to be.
> 
> Saludos,
> LN


 
I disagree with you. I think the race will be a big issue for many people (not myself, It does not matter to me. I am more interested in leadership skills)


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## cuchuflete

Just to clarify, we have two questions here:
1) Should it be an issue?  There is broad agreement that it should not.
2) Is it likely to be an issue?  There are a few viewpoints present.

C.


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## lsp

cristóbal said:
			
		

> Yes, that's what we're talking about.
> I don't understand, are you saying that contradicts what I said, or what?


No, no. You said it might be "bit propagandish and sketchy at best to claim they were black," and I was confirming that many people are stating it as fact in the media.


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## JLanguage

Even though I'm not Catholic or even Christian, (I'm Jewish), I would say:
1. The Pope's race, ethnicity, lineage, etc. shouldn't matter in modern times.
2. It would be nice to see a Black Pope as a symbol of the increasing open-mindedness and tolerance of our world today.


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## Outsider

lauranazario said:
			
		

> I think the next Pope's skin color is a non-issue for Catholics; electing the best possible leader of the Roman Catholic Church IS the real issue.
> Spoken like the Catholic I happen to be.
> 
> Saludos,
> LN


My first reaction, at least, would be to agree with lauranazario. After all, there are now many black people in the hierarchy of the R.C. Church, even cardinals.



			
				Isp said:
			
		

> cristóbal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, that's what we're talking about.
> I don't understand, are you saying that contradicts what I said, or what?
> 
> 
> 
> No, no. You said it might be "bit propagandish and sketchy at best to claim they were black," and I was confirming that many people are stating it as fact in the media.
Click to expand...

Which just comes to show how much reliance can be placed on the media.


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## Silvia

Everness said:
			
		

> Is the Catholic Church ready for a black Pope?


 You should define what you mean by Catholic Church. Racism is the antithesis of Catholicism. The word "catholic" derives from a Greek phrase that in Latin turned into "catholicus", which means "universal".



			
				Everness said:
			
		

> Is the world ready for a black Pope?


 I don't understand this question. What I understand from your words is that some people claim to be Catholic but they are racist. That's contradictory. It's like a killer lighting a candle for someone before he's going to kill him, total nonsense/rubbish. The conclave is not about political correctness anyway, the choice is made for someone's merits. Or better, that's how it should be in theory.

I think the idea of a Black Pope going around lately and spread by the media comes from Nostradamus' prophecy. But it is subject to interpretation, since the word "black/noir/nero..." is not necessarily related to the color of his skin, rather his soul. In the context of this interpretation, Nostradamus would have announced an antipope.

Anyway, media information is trash nowadays, I don't know if that's because it's the professionals who lack professionality or it's just that they think people want trash only.


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## ceirun

Silvia said:
			
		

> You should define what you mean by Catholic Church. Racism is the antithesis of Catholicism. The word "catholic" derives from a Greek phrase that in Latin turned into "catholicus", which means "universal".


I think that Everness was only asking the question.
By "Catholic Church" it's pretty obvious that it's the Roman Catholic Church being referred to.
I can't see how the etymological root of the word "catholic" is relevant.



			
				Silvia said:
			
		

> What I understand from your words is that some people claim to be Catholic but they are racist. That's contradictory. It's like a killer lighting a candle for someone before he's going to kill him, total nonsense/rubbish.


So none of the billion or more Roman Catholics in the world are racist? That seems like total nonsense/rubbish to me.
I suppose that no Catholic priests are child molesters either.

As a Catholic myself (non-practising) I sincerely hope they elect a black pope:
I really think it would force a lot of people (who supposedly believe that we are all equal under God) to confront their deeply-rooted underlying prejudices.
I think this is what the original question was really about.


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## Everness

This is interesting.
ABC News/ Washington post conducted a poll of 222 Catholics. One of the questions was the following:

_Should the next pope be from a country in the developing or developed world?_

*Developed 39%*
*Developing 22%*
No difference 37%

The Ipsos-Public Affairs for AP conducted a separate poll of 1001 adults. It doesn't say if they were Catholics.

_Should the next pope be from a place where Catholicism is growing fastest, like Africa or Latin America, or from Europe, where popes traditionally have come from?_

*Africa or Latin America 37%
Europe 36%*
Not sure 26%

My conclusions:
1. Samples rule and statistics lie. As usual, it all depends who you talk to.
2. Someone has to tell my fellow Americans that Africa and Latin America belong to the developing world and that Europe belongs to the developed world.
3. I can't stand indifference and uncertainty!


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## Everness

ceirun said:
			
		

> I think that Everness was only asking the question.
> By "Catholic Church" it's pretty obvious that it's the Roman Catholic Church being referred to.
> I can't see how the etymological root of the word "catholic" is relevant.
> 
> So none of the billion or more Roman Catholics in the world are racist? That seems like total nonsense/rubbish to me.
> I suppose that no Catholic priests are child molesters either.
> 
> As a Catholic myself (non-practising) I sincerely hope they elect a black pope:
> I really think it would force a lot of people (who supposedly believe that we are all equal under God) to confront their deeply-rooted underlying prejudices.
> I think this is what the original question was really about.



Ceirun, could I hire you as my lawyer?    I couldn't have been more clear and precise! Silvia: don't worry. I'm Protestant and there's also too much denial going on in our communities of faith. (¿Mal de muchos consuelo de tontos?) 

Ceirun: eres mi otra alma gemela. ¿Seguro que no somos parientes? Tengo una pregunta delicada: si eres ingles, ¿por que hablas y piensas como latino? ¿O eres un gringo convertido?


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## Everness

JLanguage said:
			
		

> 1. The Pope's race, ethnicity, lineage, etc. shouldn't matter in modern times.



The pope is a religious and a political figure. Let's not forget that the Vatican is an independent state as well as the headquarters of the Roman Catholic church. 

When you elect a president, doesn't race, ethnicity, gender, religion, etc. play a role in selecting a candidate? I believe they *always * do, *consciously * (good!) or *unconsciously* (problematic!). Freud was right: we are irrational beings who excel, at least, in 2 defense mechanisms: denial and  rationalization. Let's make the unconscious conscious, and may the next president of the US be black! (with the only exception of Jesse Jackson, of course!) (Por suerte no tire a la basura mis notas de mi clases de psicologia).


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## Silvia

ceirun said:
			
		

> I can't see how the etymological root of the word "catholic" is relevant.


 It is, since the word was chosen by Christians to define themselves as one Church: racism is not compatible with the concept of universality.



> So none of the billion or more Roman Catholics in the world are racist?


 No, it means that they claim to be Catholic but they are not behaving as such.

It's as if someone said that Karol Wojtyla was made Pope, because it was a worker. It's not a political election, the Pope doesn't have to represent a specific category of people, he represents Jesus.


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## Everness

Silvia said:
			
		

> It is, since the word was chosen by Christians to define themselves as one Church: racism is not compatible with the concept of universality.



I also believe that the church is one and that no Christian group or denomination can claim to be heaven's only embassy on this world. However, the reality is that there are too many churches that openly or subtetly believe that they have the monopoly of the truth, and that the rest of the groups are partiallly or completely wrong.

I also believe that racism isn't compatible with the concept of universality. However, the reality is that no community of faith (Catholic, Protestant, Greek Orthodox, etc.) is perfect. There's always a fight going on between the old society and the new society the New Testament talks about. Sometimes the new society wins and other times the old society prevails, and incidents of racism, sexism, etc. take place in our communities of faith. If my escathology isn't wrong, all of this will disappear when God brings the "new heavens and a new earth." In the meantime, we'll have to be realistic without losing our idealism! 

¡Ah, Dios cuanta paciencia tienes con nosotros, pecadores salvos por gracia!


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## Everness

Silvia said:
			
		

> No, it means that they claim to be Catholic but they are not behaving as such.



I fully agree but no one wants to hear it!


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## Outsider

Everness said:
			
		

> JLanguage said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1. The Pope's race, ethnicity, lineage, etc. shouldn't matter in modern times.
> 
> 
> 
> The pope is a religious and a political figure. Let's not forget that the Vatican is an independent state as well as the headquarters of the Roman Catholic church.
> 
> When you elect a president, doesn't race, ethnicity, gender, religion, etc. play a role in selecting a candidate?
Click to expand...

It didn't seem to help Jesse Jackson to get elected...

Isn't good old fashioned competence more relevant than race?



			
				Everness said:
			
		

> This is interesting.
> ABC News/ Washington post conducted a poll of 222 Catholics. One of the questions was the following:
> 
> _Should the next pope be from a country in the developing or developed world?_
> 
> *Developed 39%*
> *Developing 22%*
> No difference 37%
> 
> The Ipsos-Public Affairs for AP conducted a separate poll of 1001 adults. It doesn't say if they were Catholics.
> 
> _Should the next pope be from a place where Catholicism is growing fastest, like Africa or Latin America, or from Europe, where popes traditionally have come from?_
> 
> *Africa or Latin America 37%
> Europe 36%*
> Not sure 26%
> 
> My conclusions:
> 1. Samples rule and statistics lie. As usual, it all depends who you talk to.


Why do you feel those statistics do not acurately reflect the opinions of Catholics?



			
				Everness said:
			
		

> 2. Someone has to tell my fellow Americans that Africa and Latin America belong to the developing world and that Europe belongs to the developed world.


What do you mean?


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## ceirun

Everness said:
			
		

> Ceirun: eres mi otra alma gemela. ¿Seguro que no somos parientes? Tengo una pregunta delicada: si eres ingles, ¿por que hablas y piensas como latino? ¿O eres un gringo convertido?


Hi Everness. Thanks for the compliment. 
I'm not a converted gringo, Btw, but I think my mother must have dropped me on the head (very hard) as a small child. 

PS: About that Welsh town... here is the actual railway sign! http://www.papermodel.cz/papermodel/images/2004en/P3226845.jpg ...they even have the phonetic spelling underneath for stupid English people like me.




			
				Silvia said:
			
		

> It's as if someone said that Karol Wojtyla was made Pope, because it was a worker. It's not a political election, the Pope doesn't have to represent a specific category of people, *he represents Jesus*.


Silvia, I think that that is the crux of the matter (excuse the pun).
If the Pope represents Jesus, then perhaps if a black pope is elected they will stop using imagery which usually depicts him as a European-friendly Aryan type with blue eyes (and a nicely maintained beard)... or perhaps not.


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## Silvia

Maybe I'm too much of an idealist or maybe I'm just too naive, but I like to think that people are not all dumb! Actually, most of them are not. I hope not to come across as too optimistic. Personally, I don't care about the Pope's looks. And about iconography... it's just that.

P.S.: In case anyone's interested... there are black Madonna's


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## mzsweeett

ceirun said:
			
		

> Hi Everness. Thanks for the compliment.
> I'm not a converted gringo, Btw, but I think my mother must have dropped me on the head (very hard) as a small child.
> 
> PS: About that Welsh town... here is the actual railway sign! http://www.papermodel.cz/papermodel/images/2004en/P3226845.jpg ...they even have the phonetic spelling underneath for stupid English people like me.
> 
> 
> 
> Silvia, I think that that is the crux of the matter (excuse the pun).
> If the Pope represents Jesus, then perhaps if a black pope is elected they will stop using imagery which usually depicts him as a European-friendly Aryan type with blue eyes (and a nicely maintained beard)... or perhaps not.


I find your point very interesting indeed. If catholics depict Jesus as they normally do in your quoted "aryan" style...they are very wrong. Jesus was a _JEW _and therefore would not look like that. I believe he was described in the bible..off hand I can't remember what gospel...but having wooly type hair, etc. Most Jews in that part of the world do have much darker complexions, and darker eyes too. Although I have met a few Jews from Israel that did have very dark hair and very light blue eyes(...makes me think of when I was single.......). What a beautiful look. Anyway I think it would be very interesting to see what happens. I am a protestant, but I value other people and their beliefs, even if I personally do not agree with it all.

Sweet T.


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## Everness

Outsider said:
			
		

> 1. It didn't seem to help Jesse Jackson to get elected...
> 
> 2. Isn't good old fashioned competence more relevant than race?
> 
> 
> 3. Why do you feel those statistics do not acurately reflect the opinions of Catholics?
> 
> 4. What do you mean?



1. Jesse Jackson didn't get elected for other reasons. I'm not saying that race wasn't an issue but it was # 9 or 10 on the list of issues that disqualified him for the job.
2. You can only separate competence from race in the ideal world. In this world, you are still judged by the color of your skin and not simply for the content of your character. Martin Luther King's goal continues to be that: a great and good goal.
3. I didn't say that. I think they reflect what Catholics believe. 
4. The polls say that *39% * of American Catholics believe that the pope should come from a country in the *developed world * and *37% * of American Catholics believe that the pope should come from *Africa or Latin America. * Don't you see a problem?


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## cuchuflete

Everness said:
			
		

> 4. The polls say that *39% * of American Catholics believe that the pope should come from a country in the *developed world * and *37% * of American Catholics believe that the pope should come from *Africa or Latin America. * Don't you see a problem?



I see no problem. The total is less than 100%. And...I believe you may be mixing the results from two distinct samples, with two different sets of options. 
The first poll showed that 59% did not prefer a Pope from the "developed" world. The second poll said that 36% thought the Pope should be European.
So that, even if you mix the results from two distinct samples, you have
no logical conflict.  59+36=95%.

cheers,
Cuchu


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## Outsider

mzsweeett said:
			
		

> If catholics depict Jesus as they normally do in your quoted "aryan" style...they are very wrong. Jesus was a _JEW _and therefore would not look like that. I believe he was described in the bible..off hand I can't remember what gospel...but having wooly type hair, etc.


I don't believe he ever was, actually. I may be forgetting about something...



			
				mzsweeett said:
			
		

> Most Jews in that part of the world do have much darker complexions, and darker eyes too. Although I have met a few Jews from Israel that did have very dark hair and very light blue eyes(...makes me think of when I was single.......). What a beautiful look.


Who said that Jesus was average-looking? 

Having said this, it seems clear to me that each European culture tended to depict Jesus according to its own standards of beauty. Then, during colonial times, the European standards were exported to the rest of the world, and they have got a bit fossilized.


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## gotitadeleche

> believe he was described in the bible..off hand I can't remember what gospel...but having wooly type hair, etc.




Hi sweet, Could you find that verse? I am pretty familiar with the New Testament, and I don't ever recall reading a description of Jesus.

Thanks


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## Allanis

I agree 200% ( if possible ) with Silvia !

The race is absolutely not relevant in the selection of the new Pontiff, but his human skills are paramount, his will and determination to spread the Christian Values of Peace, Charity, Justice and Tolerance across the borders of our little planet, together I would say also to his personal charisma and communication skills ( I don't know how many different laguages Pope John Paul II actually was able to speak they were really a lot ! ) and also the will and 'courage' to sustain the burdain of such an incredible role !

As for the word *catholic* meaning *universal*, that's the ethimological meaning !

But of course you have quite a lot of good and not-so-good catholics around 
in a _billion strong global community._ Not all catholics are good ones it is 
obvious there are racists and there are child molesters and so on ..

Let's hope the Holy Spirit may descend within the walls of the Holy Collegium 
in the next weeks to help Cardinals summoned in Rome from all over the world 
to elect the 'right' person as the new pontiff.

I have a question for you :

Are there also cardinals coming from the US ? If yes how many ?

Is there someone who knows the number of cardinals per continent ? 

EUROPE
AMERICA
ASIA
AFRICA
AUSTRALIA


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## cristóbal

Well, looka here: http://www.catholic-pages.com/hierarchy/cardinals_list.asp

That's a list of all the current cardinals with their home countries, electors and non-electors.  And yes, of course there will be cardinals from the US.  However, none of them are front runners for the papacy.

I believe JP2 spoke 7 or 8 languages fluently, Polish, Italian, English, Spanish, Latin, French, German...


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## Everness

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> I see no problem. The total is less than 100%. And...I believe you may be mixing the results from two distinct samples, with two different sets of options.
> The first poll showed that 59% did not prefer a Pope from the "developed" world. The second poll said that 36% thought the Pope should be European.
> So that, even if you mix the results from two distinct samples, you have
> no logical conflict.  59+36=95%.
> 
> cheers,
> Cuchu



Hola varon!
I see your point. 

1st Poll
Developed 39%
Developing 22%

2nd Poll
Africa or Latin America 37%
Europe 36%

One could say that the 39% of individuals that said that the pope should come from a developed country (1st poll) almost coincides with the 36% who responded that they wanted an European pope (2nd poll). My problem is with the 17-point difference in the first poll, taking into account that the second one is almost a tie.

I'm not mixing but comparing two polls that basically asked the same question to a group of Americans. It's true that the samples could be different (one group was made up by Catholics and the other group could be all Catholic or mixed). The sources didn't bother to let us know. That brings me to my main point. 

Polls can be manipulated to make sure that the results satisfy the agency, the lobby, the company, the government agency, etc. etc. that is paying for it. 

Personally, I think that the first poll is right and the second one is not. That is, I believe (it's just a prejudicial hunch) that Americans Catholics would like a pope from the first world. Moreover, if the individuals polled in the second one were all non-Catholics, my other prejudicial hunch about why American Catholics would like a pope from the developed world (hopefully American!) would be confirmed: my American Catholic brothers and sisters want a more liberal than conservative pope on issues of reproductive health, ordination of women, allowing priests to marry, sexuality, etc. And you know what? I agree!


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## Outsider

Everness said:
			
		

> This is interesting.
> ABC News/ Washington post conducted a poll of 222 Catholics. One of the questions was the following:
> 
> _Should the next pope be from a country in the developing or developed world?_
> 
> *Developed 39%*
> *Developing 22%*
> No difference 37%
> 
> The Ipsos-Public Affairs for AP conducted a separate poll of 1001 adults. It doesn't say if they were Catholics.
> 
> _Should the next pope be from a place where Catholicism is growing fastest, like Africa or Latin America, or from Europe, where popes traditionally have come from?_
> 
> *Africa or Latin America 37%
> Europe 36%*
> Not sure 26%


You said yourself they were two different polls. That's why the results--with more people favoring a pope from Africa and Latin America than those who favour a pope from a developing country--don't seem to add up. 

If I may add, 222 is not that big a sample size.


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## Allanis

wow .. that site was fantastic ! it's even possible to sort cardinals by rank, date of consistors, age and nationality...


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## cristóbal

I don't know, I don't see that much disparity between 39 and 22 percent.  Seems a bit muddy as to what the results are.  And as Outsider said, 222 Catholics is awfully small sample size.  I don't trust polls as a general rule, and I would be even more wary of trusting this one.
Anyway, like I said, 22 and 39 percent don't really tell me much.  I personally, and no offense to the Italians, will be a bit disappointed if an Italian is elected pope.

And might I say, as an American Catholic, that any Catholic who thinks an American (from the US) will be named Pope... well, have him call me, because I've got some property in Palm Beach to sell him. ;-)

As for the theory that American Catholics are looking for a liberal Pope, let me just continue to put an end to your prejudicial hunch, I wouldn't bet on that.  The general pulse of the Church lately has pointed toward conservativism a la JP2.  I personally am in favor of a conservative pope and would be delighted to see a cardinal from a developing country named.  I don't think an American Pope really appetizes me much at all.

And don't hold your breath on "my American Catholic brothers and sisters want a more liberal than conservative pope on issues of reproductive health, ordination of women, allowing priests to marry, sexuality, etc."
That's quite a mouthful.


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## Silvia

Everness, I would like to comment on the statistics you provided and try to put myself in American shoes.

Should the next pope be from a country in the developing or developed world?
Developed 39%
Developing 22%
No difference 37%
Of course it makes no difference, because the pope is super partes. How's someone different in a developed country? I guess there's a higher chance of culture, study, travelling, getting in touch with other cultures... thus "from a developed country" might be preferable.

Should the next pope be from a place where Catholicism is growing fastest, like Africa or Latin America, or from Europe, where popes traditionally have come from?
Africa or Latin America 37%
Europe 36%
Not sure 26% 
Now, this question is very different from the other one. The first question divides countries according to their economy and following certain parameters; the second one is more subjective, unless you imply that Africa or Latin America have inferior standards, with which I don't agree. In several African and Southern American countries, economic conditions are better than in European countries, here some examples: 
South Africa, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya do better than Albania, Macedonia, Serbia and Montenegro...
Argentina, Mexico, Uruguay, Costa Rica do better than Romania, Bulgaria, etc.

Also, as other members pointed out already, the two questions were answered by different people, not the same group.

This should solve your doubts without making you jump to risky conclusions


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## cristóbal

Silvia said:
			
		

> and try to put myself in American shoes.




Careful, our sizes are completely different.


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## aigle491

Honestly, why does the race matter?


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## Silvia

I know, Cristóbal  but they say in America everything's bigger 

I forgot to add that in case of clergymen, more or less developed countries they were assigned to are not an issue, since wouldn't they all be citizens of the Vatican State? I'm not sure, but they probably are. If it is so, those questions would be pointless (not that they are meaningful anyway! )


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## cristóbal

Haha, Silvia, touché, touché.


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## Everness

Outsider said:
			
		

> You said yourself they were two different polls. That's why the results--with more people favoring a pope from Africa and Latin America than those who favour a pope from a developing country--don't seem to add up.
> 
> If I may add, 222 is not that big a sample size.




Let's see if this time I get my message across. Pay attention to this forumula: 
 Africa and Latin America countries = developing countries​ ¿Se entiende? 
​


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## Everness

cristóbal said:
			
		

> As for the theory that American Catholics are looking for a liberal Pope, let me just continue to put an end to your prejudicial hunch, I wouldn't bet on that. The general pulse of the Church lately has pointed toward conservativism a la JP2. I personally am in favor of a conservative pope and would be delighted to see a cardinal from a developing country named. I don't think an American Pope really appetizes me much at all.
> 
> And don't hold your breath on "my American Catholic brothers and sisters want a more liberal than conservative pope on issues of reproductive health, ordination of women, allowing priests to marry, sexuality, etc."
> That's quite a mouthful.



Cristobal, let me share the results of other polls conducted in the US (source: Ipsos-Public Affairs for AP)

_ Should the next pope give lay people a greater say in how the church is governed?_
Yes 62%
No 29%

_ Do you think the next pope should allow priests to marry or maintain policies requiring celibacy?_
Marry 69%
Celibacy 25%

_ Do more to address the problem of sexual abuse of children and teens by priests._
Next pope should do more 86%
Church has done enough 12%

_ Do you think the next pope should allow women to be ordained as priests?_
Yes 64%
No 32%

NOTE: This poll of 1001 adults (I know, not enough souls!) was taken April 1-3.

Apparent conclusion: Most Americans want changes in Roman Catholic Church policies. 

Cristobal, taking into account a) the results of the above polls, b) that 86.8% of Americans consider themselves religious, c) that 76.5% of Americans identify themselves as Christians, and d) that your Catholic Church is the largest religious group in the USA (66,407,105 members in 2002), I would seriously consider moving back to the US to further your conservative agenda before it's too late! The liberals are coming! 

Check these website out:
http://www.pbs.org/now/society/religionstats.html
http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html#bodies


----------



## Outsider

Everness said:
			
		

> Let's see if this time I get my message across. Pay attention to this forumula:
> Africa and Latin America countries = developing countries​


S-o w-h-a-t?


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## Silvia

Everness, I don't know if you just want to indicate what some American Catholic people wish, or what you would personally like. Maybe it's both 

By the way, I guess not many people know that there are married Catholic priests at present, and there were in the past too (it was common until Middle Age). That experience in history proved to be quite negative, maybe I'll enter into details, if you want. That doesn't mean that it must be negative for the future, obviously, it's just that the Church didn't want to go through the very same mistakes probably.


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## cristóbal

Everness, you're forgetting something important: *most Americans* are not Catholic. 

Furthermore, the poll does not even tell us whether they polled Catholics or not.  
Do I go around saying who I think should be the next leader of France?  Does anyone care what my opinion is anyway?  No.  No.





			
				Everness said:
			
		

> Apparent conclusion: *Most Americans* want changes in Roman Catholic Church policies.


----------



## Everness

Outsider said:
			
		

> S-o w-h-a-t?



I give up!


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## Everness

Silvia said:
			
		

> Everness, I don't know if you just want to indicate what some American Catholic people wish, or what you would personally like. Maybe it's both



Silvia, 

I'm not Catholic. I'm Protestant. If believing, for instance, that women should become ordained ministers or that laity should have a greater say in the way the church, any church is governed means that I'm liberal, I'm a hardcore liberal. Moreover, would I like that all Christian churches give ample participation to women and lay people in the life and mission of the church? Yes, absolutely yes. Maybe that is one of the reasons I feel comfortable in my Presbyterian church. 

But I'm not in the business of telling people what to think or do. I didn't come up with these polls. I just shared this information and my thoughts on the polls with you guys. (It seems that some of us don't like polls or what the polls reflect but I have no control over that.) I respect the Catholic church and I'm not going to tell my brothers and sisters how to live their faith. (Even if I do, people are smart enough not to pay attention!)


----------



## Artrella

Why do you trouble yourselves thinking and discussing this subject?  They already know who will take over.  And I don't think it will be a black person, or a Latinamerican one.
I wish, as an Argentinian, that Bergloglio could take over.  But as someone said, we are developing countries... and will be developing for the rest of our lives...


----------



## cristóbal

Artrella said:
			
		

> Why do you trouble yourselves thinking and discussing this subject?  They already know who will take over.  And I don't think it will be a black person, or a Latinamerican one.
> I wish, as an Argentinian, that Bergloglio could take over.  But as someone said, we are developing countries... and will be developing for the rest of our lives...



Well, look at it this way, Art... at least you're still developing.  Who wants to live in a country that doesn't develop anymore?


----------



## Everness

cristóbal said:
			
		

> Everness, you're forgetting something important: *most Americans* are not Catholic.
> 
> Furthermore, the poll does not even tell us whether they polled Catholics or not.
> Do I go around saying who I think should be the next leader of France?  Does anyone care what my opinion is anyway?  No.  No.



Ay Cristobal! 

En primer lugar, me olvide decir (mea culpa) de aclarar que _Most Americans want changes in Roman Catholic Church policies_ era el titulo de la encuesta. 

Si la muestra estadistica fue recogida correctamente, refleja los valores (en este caso religiosos) de todo un pais. Tienes razon: la encuesta no dice si las 1001 personas eran catolicas, pero si dicen que eran todas americanas (y por favor no entremos a discutir quien es y quien no es un americano). No hice calculos exactos pero si hay 66 millones de catolicos en EEUU y la poblacion es de 296 millones, 22% de las 1001 personas encuestadas eran catolicos. Casi 1/4 de la poblacion! No te parece una cifra considerable y para tener en cuenta? 25% piensa asi y el otro 75% (del cual tambien sabemos que 76.5% seguramente son cristianos) también piensa asi. Me tome el tiempo del mundo para demostrar que el pueblo americano es esencialmente religioso y cristiano (por lo menos eso es lo que decimos ser). Que quiero decir con eso? Que si bien hay diferencias entre el catolicismo y el resto de los grupos cristianos en los EEUU, tambien hay puntos, muchos puntos de coincidencia. Son cifras bastante fuertes que nos permiten tomar la temperatura del pueblo americano con bastante certeza. Espero no haberte apabullado con tantas cifras y tantas deducciones e inducciones. 

Peace!


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## Everness

Artrella said:
			
		

> Why do you trouble yourselves thinking and discussing this subject?  They already know who will take over.



Inside trading should be banned even in the Catholic church! I'm sure that some agency in the state of Nevada already came up with some type of betting on who is going to be the next pope. (Art, if you know anything please let me know. I'm currently facing a cash flow emergency!)


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## cristóbal

¿Por qué te importa esto?

Así que después de preguntar a 1001 personas, de las cuales unos 220 _podían_ haber sido católicos pero no se sabe, ¿tenemos una buena idea de lo que piensan los católicos de EEUU?  ¡Vaya! Menuda lógica esa...

Te recuerdo que el catolicismo no es una democracia y nunca la será. 




			
				Everness said:
			
		

> Tienes razon: la encuesta no dice si las 1001 personas eran catolicas, pero si dicen que eran todas americanas. No hice calculos exactos pero si hay 66 millones de catolicos en EEUU y la poblacion es de 296 millones, 22% de las 1001 personas encuestadas eran catolicos. Casi 1/4 de la poblacion! No te parece una cifra considerable y para tener en cuenta?


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## Artrella

Everness said:
			
		

> Inside trading should be banned even in the Catholic church! I'm sure that some agency in the state of Nevada already came up with some type of betting on who is going to be the next pope. (Art, if you know anything please let me know. I'm currently facing a cash flow emergency!)




I don't fully understand your joke, but let me tell you sth.  I believe in God, I don't believe in Church or in clergymen.  Without the intention of offending  anyone, to me Vatican and Church are businesses just like any other business. We have already had many "strange events" like the "suicide" of Roberto Calvi (Banco Ambrosiano) and the "death" of Juan Pablo I....


----------



## Artrella

cristóbal said:
			
		

> Well, look at it this way, Art... at least you're still developing.  Who wants to live in a country that doesn't develop anymore?





Cris, we are not developing... and everybody knows that... maybe we can discuss this subject in another thread.... developing countries are really developing... how long will we have to wait to see our countries fully developed?  I am almost 40 and  I have never seen any improvement, quite the contrary....


----------



## cristóbal

Artrella said:
			
		

> Cris, we are not developing... and everybody knows that... maybe we can discuss this subject in another thread.... developing countries are really developing... how long will we have to wait to see our countries fully developed?  I am almost 40 and  I have never see any improvement, quite the contrary....



I'm not sure what you mean, Art.


----------



## ceirun

Everness said:
			
		

> Inside trading should be banned even in the Catholic church! I'm sure that some agency in the state of Nevada already came up with some type of betting on who is going to be the next pope. (Art, if you know anything please let me know. I'm currently facing a cash flow emergency!)


In case you really fancy having a flutter (bet) on the Papal Conclave Election, here are the latest decimal odds for the top runners, from a well known bookmaker. 

Example bet: $10 on O.Rodriguez will give you a $79.90 return.

As far as I know, they will accept bets from Protestants:

_1 D. Tettamanzi 3.510 _
_2 F. Arinze 6.520_
_3 C. Hummes 7.620_
_4 O. Rodriguez 7.990_
_5 J. Ratzinger 6.990_
_6 G. Battista 18.280_
_7 J. Lustiger 29.710_
_8 JM Bergoglio 16.19_
_9 D. Castrillon 26.040_
_10 G. Danneels 27.330_
_11 J. Ortega 34.190_
_12 C. Schoenborn 22.250_
_13 I. Dias 27.780_


----------



## Artrella

cristóbal said:
			
		

> I'm not sure what you mean, Art.




I mean that this word "developing" is not the appropriate word to describe our countries, *3rd world countries???*.  If we were developing, we should be better, and I cannot see we are improving, on the contrary, we are getting worse as time goes by.  We are "packaged-up" all the time (if this is the correct phrasal to use).  This word is a word used by people because if they had to use the real word to describe our countries... well it would be very sad. 
I lived here for almost 40 years, and in that period I haven't seen any development.... maybe today I'm sceptical and pessimistic... or maybe I am being realistic...Are we really on the good track to development?.... mmm.... What can I say?... I don't believe any more in anyone....sorry... I have to see to believe!


----------



## cristóbal

No sé qué decirte, Art.  No creo que yo tenga derecho ni a estar de acuerdo o a discrepar contigo.  De todos modos... te puedo decir que si tu ves la vida en Argentina así, a lo mejor si hubieras vivido en el "primer mundo" durante 40 años también creerías que el primer mundo tampoco se está mejorando, sino que se está empeorando.  Pero, ¿Yo qué sé?  Nunca he estado en Argentina, y a diferencia de algunas personas que quieren imponer sus opiniones en _iglesias_ ajenas, no voy a osar a opinar sobre algo que desconozco.


----------



## Artrella

cristóbal said:
			
		

> No sé qué decirte, Art.  No creo que yo tenga derecho ni a estar de acuerdo o a discrepar contigo.  De todos modos... te puedo decir que si tu ves la vida en Argentina así, a lo mejor si hubieras vivido en el "primer mundo" durante 40 años también creerías que el primer mundo tampoco se está mejorando, sino que se está empeorando.  Pero, ¿Yo qué sé?  Nunca he estado en Argentina, y a diferencia de algunas personas que quieren imponer sus opiniones en _iglesias_ ajenas, no voy a osar a opinar sobre algo que desconozco.





Gracias Cristóbal, sí lamentablemente todo está desmejorando...gracias a  nosotros mismos... pero esto es harina de otro costal..no?


----------



## Everness

ceirun said:
			
		

> In case you really fancy having a flutter (bet) on the Papal Conclave Election, here are the latest decimal odds for the top runners, from a well known bookmaker.
> 
> Example bet: $10 on O.Rodriguez will give you a $79.90 return.
> 
> As far as I know, they will accept bets from Protestants:
> 
> _1 D. Tettamanzi 3.510 _
> _2 F. Arinze 6.520_
> _3 C. Hummes 7.620_
> _4 O. Rodriguez 7.990_
> _5 J. Ratzinger 6.990_
> _6 G. Battista 18.280_
> _7 J. Lustiger 29.710_
> _8 JM Bergoglio 16.19_
> _9 D. Castrillon 26.040_
> _10 G. Danneels 27.330_
> _11 J. Ortega 34.190_
> _12 C. Schoenborn 22.250_
> _13 I. Dias 27.780_



Gracias por el dato hermano! My next goal is to secure the 10 bucks and of course to pray for good luck!


----------



## Everness

Artrella said:
			
		

> I don't fully understand your joke, but let me tell you sth.



Si lees lo que mi primo-hermano Ceirun escribio en el post 71, creo que entenderas el chiste. Dejo a discrecion del consumidor determinar si es bueno o malo!


----------



## Artrella

Everness said:
			
		

> Si lees lo que mi primo-hermano Ceirun escribio en el post 71, creo que entenderas el chiste. Dejo a discrecion del consumidor determinar si es bueno o malo!




Now...the penny's dropped!! Thanks Everness!!!


----------



## Outsider

Everness said:
			
		

> I give up!





			
				Everness said:
			
		

> [...] si hay 66 millones de catolicos en EEUU y la poblacion es de 296 millones, 22% de las 1001 personas encuestadas eran catolicos. Casi 1/4 de la poblacion! No te parece una cifra considerable y para tener en cuenta? 25% piensa asi y el otro 75% (del cual tambien sabemos que 76.5% seguramente son cristianos) también piensa asi.


I give up, too.


----------



## cuchuflete

I was trained in statistical analysis, and the only conclusions I am able to draw are:
1. 1001 is not a meaningful sample size for a universe of 296 million, or of 66 million.
2. 22% of 1001 is so laughable that it found its way into the WR EN only dictionary:


> 2 	absurd, cockeyed, derisory, idiotic, laughable, ludicrous, nonsensical, preposterous, ridiculous
> completely devoid of wisdom or good sense; "the absurd excuse that the dog ate his homework"; "that's a cockeyed idea"; "ask a nonsensical question and get a nonsensical answer"; "a contribution so small as to be laughable";


----------



## zebedee

Everness said:
			
		

> Let's see if this time I get my message across. Pay attention to this forumula:
> Africa and Latin America countries = developing countries​ ¿Se entiende?
> ​




Ok, Everness. Let's see if I get my message across.

2 polls, ok?

Poll Nº1
What's your favourite sandwich?:
Ham & cheese 76%
pickle 25%

Poll Nº2
How often do you clean your teeth?:
Twice a day 75%
Once a day 15%

According to your logic, everyone who likes ham & cheese sandwiches clean their teeth twice a day.   Ermm...no. In exactly the same way, these 2 polls results have nothing to do with each other: 


> Should the next pope be from a country in the developing or developed world?
> 
> Developed 39%
> Developing 22%
> No difference 37%
> 
> The Ipsos-Public Affairs for AP conducted a separate poll of 1001 adults. It doesn't say if they were Catholics.
> 
> Should the next pope be from a place where Catholicism is growing fastest, like Africa or Latin America, or from Europe, where popes traditionally have come from?
> 
> Africa or Latin America 37%
> Europe 36%
> Not sure 26%



I've heard you say in a few threads: "just as well I never threw away my philosophy school notes". 
Did you throw away your Logic school notes?  

zeb


----------



## Everness

Jajajaja....que manera de hablar sandeces!


----------



## ceirun

Everness said:
			
		

> Jajajaja....que manera de hablar *sandeces*!


Or sandwiches, even.


----------



## cuchuflete

Nice to see that this has all returned to a pacific and amenable tone.  Please PM me if you have a *factual* or *logical* contribution to make to the discussion.  I will be happy to re-open the thread for you.

Let's give this thread a well-earned rest.  Closed for the season.

Thanks to all the serious participants.

Cuchu


----------

