# Madam, Ma'am, Sir (military/police)



## BJ82

I write a novel, so I am curious about the military/police.

In some Asian countries, you don't need to use "madam/ma'am/sir", but I know that some English speakers in Asian countries and Hong Kong use "madam/ma'am/sir".

I am a Chinese who lives in Sweden. You don't need to use "madam/ma'am/sir" here.


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## Yendred

In France, in the military/police, you address to people by using their rank name: _Commandant/Capitaine/Lieutenant/Chef/..._


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## Armas

In Finland, in the military we say "Mr/Mrs. [rank]": _Herra/rouva kapteeni._ I'm not sure about the police.


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## apmoy70

In Greek, as in Finnish, we say "Mrs/mr military rank in vocative": *«Κυρία/κύριε λοχαγέ»* [ciˈɾi.a lɔ.xaˈʝe] (female)/[ˈci.ɾi.e lɔ.xaˈʝe] (male) --> _Mrs Captain (f.), Mr Captain (m.)_, or,
"Mrs/mr Police rank in vocative": *«Κυρία/κύριε αστυνόμε»* [ciˈɾi.a as.tiˈnɔ.me] (female)/[ˈci.ɾi.e as.tiˈnɔ.me] (male) --> _Mrs Police Captain (f.), Mr Police Captain_


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## Welsh_Sion

One of things that distinguish UKers and USAers is that we Britons do not address our police officers as 'Sir' or 'Madam' - whereas they do. 'Ma'am' is reserved for addressing HM the Queen (Elizabeth II).

And although not mentioned here, be careful not to use 'Madame' in any context outside addressing a French female or in British English, at least, the owner of a brothel.


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## Yendred

Welsh_Sion said:


> be careful to not use 'Madame' in any context outside addressing a French female or in British English, at least, the owner of a brothel.


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## BJ82

Welsh_Sion said:


> One of things that distinguish UKers and USAers is that we Britons do not address our police officers as 'Sir' or 'Madam' - whereas they do.




I didn't know. Why?


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## Welsh_Sion

Can't say I really know 'Why?', BJ82. Normally, we'd say, 'Yes, Officer' and 'No, Officer'.

(I'm hoping another Briton will help me out here … !)


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## Stoggler

Welsh_Sion said:


> 'Ma'am' is reserved for addressing HM the Queen (Elizabeth II).



It’s also used within the British police and armed forces when addressing a female superior.


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## merquiades

In the US, you would definitely address police officers or military personnel as "Sir" or "Ma'am/Madam".  You want to give them maximum respect.  Otherwise they could arrest you or fine you. 
But this is not exclusive to police officers by any means.  It can extend to any person in authority or anyone you feel deserves your respect.  Actually, very polite people use "Sir" or "Ma'am/Madam" with pretty much everyone they don't know, especially older people.
You might help an (older) lady carry her grocery sacks and say "May I help you, Ma'am?" People might routinely answer "Yes, ma'am".  "No, sir" when answering any question.  It softens conversation:  "Excuse me, ma'am".   Some say it is a sign of education to use these terms systematically whenever you can.
But you will also find people who hardly ever say "Sir/Madam".  I think you hear it much more as you travel towards the south and the midwest, less in big cities.  But still, it depends...


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## Pedro y La Torre

merquiades said:


> In the US, you would definitely address police officers or military personnel as "Sir" or "Ma'am/Madam".  You want to give them maximum respect.  Otherwise they could arrest you or fine you.



When I was in New York, I said "Thank you, officer" as I would back home and no-one batted an eyelid. Is this some sort of unwritten rule?


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## merquiades

Pedro y La Torre said:


> When I was in New York, I said "Thank you officer" as I would back home and no-one batted an eyelid. Is this some sort of unwritten rule?


No, you just need to have a polite, smiling, deferent, submissive attitude to them. Some of them are on serious power trips, think they are at war in Afghanistan, and would just love to slam you on the ground, give you a hefty fine, or take you in. 'Sir' helps a lot, but so could 'officer' with a nice grin. Irish is also a rather positive thing to be.


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## Awwal12

Yendred said:


> In France, in the military/police, you address to people by using their rank name: _Commandant/Capitaine/Lieutenant/Chef/..._


In Russia it's normally "comrade" + rank (this tradition stuck from the Soviet era). Rank + surname as a form of addressing may be used towards subordinates only (in those rare cases when an officer needs to address his subordinates formally).


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## Yendred

Awwal12 said:


> In Russia it's normally "comrade" + rank (this tradition stuck from the Soviet era)



Great! This is an information. I thought _това́рищ w_ould have been lost with the end of the Soviet Union. In France, only members of the communist party call each other "_camarade_" 

By the way, the origin of _camarade/comrade/това́рищ _goes back to the French Revolution, as a way to call each other in a more egalitarian manner than _Sir/Madam, _so saying_ comrade + rank _is quite a snook to history!

EDIT: I just saw the interesting etymology of _това́рищ, _coming from_ товaр = product,  goods. това́рищ _would then be a_ "little product"?  товaр _itself apparently comes from Turk_ tovar. _
Awwal12, you have any more information about this etymology?


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## symposium

Didn't they call each other "citoyen" during the French Revolution? "Citoyen Général"... Of course, both the usage and the intentions were very much the same for the French and for the Russians.


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## Yendred

Yes you are right, it began with _citoyen_, and later with _camarade_, which became widely used in the 19th century by socialist movements.


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## Maroseika

Yendred said:


> EDIT: I just saw the interesting etymology of _това́рищ, _coming from_ товaр = product,  goods. това́рищ _would then be a_ "little product"?  товaр _itself apparently comes from Turk_ tovar. _


-ищ in товарищ is not diminutive. It's reckoned to also come from Turkic: tavar (goods) + еš, iš (friend, comrade), so originally товарищ is "business/travelling companion". Marxists did not care too much about etymology.


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## Awwal12

Yes. Moreover, the actual suffix -ищ- is _augmentative_, but then it's always accompanied by a neuter or a feminine inflection (-ище, -ища), which obviously isn't the case. Its existence might have played a role in the stress shift, though.


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## Yendred

Maroseika said:


> It's reckoned to also come from Turkic: tavar (goods) + еš, iš (friend, comrade), so originally товарищ is "business/travelling companion"



Great! Thank you!
Does the influence of Turkic on Russian come from the Turkic-speaking former republics of the USSR?


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## Ballenero

Hi!
In Spain, members of the armed forces to address a superior must say: "my + rank".

"_Mi sargento", "mi capitán_", etc...


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## Yendred

Ballenero said:


> In Spain, members of the armed forces to address a superior must say: "my + rank".
> 
> "_Mi sargento", "mi capitán_", etc...



In France, the protocol in the armed forces is to address a superior with "_Mon _+ rank" when the superior is a man, and just "rank" if the superior is a woman:
To a man: _Mon Commandant/Mon Capitaine/Mon Lieutenant/..._
To a woman: _Commandant/Capitaine/Lieutenant/..._

It is said that "_Mon_" is this context should not be interpreted as a possessive adjective, but the abbreviation of "_Monsieur_" (although the etymology of _Monsieur _itself is _Mon Sieur = my sir_)


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## Awwal12

Yendred said:


> Great! Thank you!
> Does the influence of Turkic on Russian come from the Turkic-speaking former republics of the USSR?


The influence of Turkic languages on Russian comes from more than a millennium of linguistic contacts, starting right from proto-Slavic (there is a couple of early common loans usually  ascribed to Huns or Avars). Then most East Slavs were tributaries of the Khazar Khaganate, while Danubian Slavs were ruled by Bulgars (so many Turkic loanwords come from Church Slavonic). Then there were several centuries of local contacts with Pechenegs, Torks and Cumans. Then Russian principalities became vassals of the Golden Horde. And then there was a huge mass of Turkic cultural terms coming from the XVI and the XVII centuries, when the most available high culture in Russia happened to come from Turkic-dominated Muslim countries, starting from the Ottoman Empire. All the subsequent period, however, is marked by pretty much unilateral loans from Russian to Turkic languages (aside from some exoticisms).


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## BJ82

Ballenero said:


> Hi!
> In Spain, members of the armed forces to address a superior must say: "my + rank".
> 
> "_Mi sargento", "mi capitán_", etc...



No "_señor/señora_"?


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## Ballenero

BJ82 said:


> No "_señior[señor]/señora_"?


I don't think so.


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## ThomasK

Dutch: generally "meneer/ mevrouw", maybe "agent" but seems very implausible to me...


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## BJ82

ThomasK said:


> Dutch: generally "meneer/ mevrouw", maybe "agent" but seems very implausible to me...


What do you mean "implausible"?


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## ThomasK

Well, that it would be used seems very implausible to me, not impossible though…


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## BJ82

Ballenero said:


> I don't think so.


Hey again! What do you say to a superior woman?  Do you also say "_Mi_ _capitán_"? Is it unisex?


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## Ballenero

Although there is the word 'capitana', in the Spanish army you must call her 'capitán'.
This way
_Antonio X. es el capitán.
María Z. es la capitán._


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## rarabara

BJ82 said:


> I write a novel, so I am curious about the military/police.
> 
> In some Asian countries, you don't need to use "madam/ma'am/sir", but I know that some English speakers in Asian countries and Hong Kong use "madam/ma'am/sir".
> 
> I am a Chinese who lives in Sweden. You don't need to use "madam/ma'am/sir" here.


in turkish, we generally use
"Komutanım" this also commonly starts with "Emret/Emredersin" but not as a salutation statement in the entrance of sentence ,to finalize the sentence or any expression especially after a taken command (if you are willing to directly express/convey your wish or any type of opinion to your commmander you will start with "Komutanım," or "Komutanım;" as it follows with comma or semicolon.(generally all the expressions are tonal (strict/hard tone))

but in e-mails and for instance at somewhere where very official communications are in hand,then the sentence should directly start with

"'Sayın' Ahmet Şahinçelenk" or "'Sayın' Şahinçelenk" and it follows with a short or fixed paragraph or a sentence.


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## mcrasnich

That's very interesting. I just don't think that here in Italy we address police and army officers in any particular way. Certainly I wouldn't say, sì signore, sì signora. I think we treat them just like any civil servant.


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## symposium

I believe in Italy, as in France, you just address an army officer by their rank (sì, tenente/ sì, colonnello/ sì, maresciallo). I don't know (and I don't think) one uses the female versions of those rank titles with women officers, that is, women officers are also addressed by using the male version of rank titles (unfortunatly that's the norm with almost any title in Italy).


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## Nanon

In France, the military are reluctant to feminise rank titles, but there are some rules:

Among the military, when addressing a male officer of higher rank, you say _mon capitaine, mon colonel, mon général..._ Curiously, according to etiquette manuals, in this case _mon _is not a possessive but the abbreviation of _monsieur_.
If a civilian wants to call an officer by his rank, he may not use _mon_.
When addressing a female officer, you just use her rank: _capitaine, colonelle, générale.._. (because _mon _stands for _Sir_). The difference is visible in writing but it is barely noticeable in speech (it may be heard sometimes, according to local accents).
Even more curiously, nothing of the above applies to the Navy. They don't feminise rank titles. I don't know if it still has to do with women aboard meaning bad omen... 
Source: Féminisation dans les armées — Mon/Ma adjudante - Français notre belle langue


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## BJ82

Nanon said:


> Even more curiously, nothing of the above applies to the Navy. They don't feminise rank titles. I don't know if it still has to do with women aboard meaning bad omen...
> Source: Féminisation dans les armées — Mon/Ma adjudante - Français notre belle langue



LOL!


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## BJ82

Nanon said:


> Source: Féminisation dans les armées — Mon/Ma adjudante - Français notre belle langue


I was newly in the French forum. So I didn't understand what the French forum said, but _ma_ _capitaine, ma colonelle_, _ma_ _général__e_ is not accepted?


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## wildan1

Pedro y La Torre said:


> When I was in New York, I said "Thank you officer" as I would back home and no-one batted an eyelid.


That's because we do commonly call a police officer_ "Yes, No, Officer" _here--as an alternative form of address to _Sir _or _Ma'am_ (but never _"Madam"_).


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## BJ82

Nanon said:


> Source: Féminisation dans les armées — Mon/Ma adjudante - Français notre belle langue





BJ82 said:


> I was newly in the French forum. So I didn't understand what the French forum said, but _ma_ _capitaine, ma colonelle_, _ma_ _général__e_ is not accepted?



I still don't get your answer.


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## Nanon

BJ82 said:


> _ma_ _capitaine, ma colonelle_, _ma_ _général__e_ is not accepted


None of these is officially accepted, at least in France.


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