# shade / shadow



## elroy

A number of languages use the same word for “shade” and “shadow.”  I’ve heard so many non-native speakers of English use “shadow” for “shade,” as in “It’s hot.  Let’s sit in the shadow,” which sounds really funny in English.

Interestingly, Arabic, like English, uses two different words:

shade: فيء /fajʔ/ (Standard); في /fajj/ (Palestinian)
shadow: ظل /ðˤill/ (Standard); خيال /xaja:l/ (Palestinian) 

Languages that use the same word:
German: Schatten
Spanish: sombra

What about other languages?


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## Yendred

elroy said:


> Languages that use the same word:
> German: Schatten
> Spanish: sombra


French does too: _ombre_

To such an extent that I had to check the difference between _shade_ and _shadow_, which appear quite subtle to me  (if not far-fetched!)


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## סייבר־שד

In Hebrew you can also use *צל* [tsel] for both "shadow" and "shade"; Italian *ombra *and Russian *тень *work the same, as well.


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## elroy

Yendred said:


> which appear quite subtle to me


To the English speaker (and the Arabic speaker), the difference is not at all subtle!  Many people would be confused by / wouldn’t understand “Let’s sit in the shadow,” and “I can see my shade” just sounds like nonsense. 

The fact that in English the two words are etymologically related may help, but in Arabic they’re totally unrelated so the Arabic equivalents of the above sentences would be out-and-out incomprehensible.

It’s fascinating that to you the difference is subtle!  This would lend support to the theory that language shapes thought.  To me, they’re as different as “pond” and “puddle.”


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## Yendred

Can you give example sentences (in English) to point out the difference between _shade_ and _shadow_?

E.g. _shadow_ is the shape you create on the ground when you stand in the sun, while _shade_ is the relative darkness behind a tree or building that hides the sun?
In these contexts, I confirm that French uses the same word: _ombre_


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## elroy

You can just swap out the words in my examples above. 

_Let’s sit in the shade.
I can see my shadow._

Shade (uncountable) is an area providing shelter from the sun.  It’s not associated with a particular person or thing; it’s just shade. 

A shadow (countable) is associated with a particular person or thing: my shadow, the dog’s shadow, the shadow of the lamppost.  

Synonyms of “shadow” (but not of “shade”) are “reflection” and “silhouette.”


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## Yendred

elroy said:


> Let’s sit in the shade


That _shade_ must be created by something (a tree or building, etc., that hides the sun), right?
Then if you sit _in the shade_, you should also sit _on the shadow_ of the thing that creates the shade, don't you?
(This in order for me to understand well the difference of concepts)


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## elroy

Yes, but no.  

They’re conceptually totally different things.

A puddle comes from the rain, but you don’t say “I dropped my key in the rain.” 

Also, shade can be a combination of more than one shadow.  And even if it were just the product of one large building, for example, “the shadow” still wouldn’t make sense.  It would need to be “the building’s shadow,” but no, you don’t sit in/on the building’s shadow.  

You can stand on someone’s shadow, but that doesn’t protect you from the sun, so it’s not shade.

I don’t know if I’m helping.


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## Yendred

elroy said:


> A puddle comes from the rain, but you don’t say “I dropped my key in the rain.”


The comparison is well-found


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## Yendred

elroy said:


> You can stand on someone’s shadow, but that doesn’t protect you from the sun, so it’s not shade.


In French, we would say:
_Je marche sur ton ombre, mais je ne suis pas à l'ombre._


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## elroy

That makes sense!  “à l’ombre” is probably a fixed phrase, right, like “in the shade” and “im Schatten.”


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## Yendred

Thank you for all these precisions  

I must confess that in English I would have used _shadow_ in all these contexts, and reserve _shade_ for contexts like colors in paintings for example (e.g. "_a_ _shade of grey"*_).

(*) in this context, we say in French "_une nuance de gris_".


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## Hulalessar

Think of "shade" as meaning "out of the sun".


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## apmoy70

In Greek they're the same:

*«Σκιά»* [s̠ciˈa] (fem.) --> _shadow, shade_ < Classical feminine noun *«σκιά» skĭā́* and *«σκιή» skĭḗ* --> _shadow, shade_ (PIE *(s)ḱeh₃-ih₂- _shadow, shade_ cf. Alb. hie, _shadow, shade, darkness, murkiness_, Ltv. seja, _face_). The verb *«σκιάζω»* [s̠ciˈaz̠o̞] (active) interestinɡly enouɡh, has as primary meaninɡs _to friɡhten, cause fear, terrify, _*«σκιάζομαι»* [s̠ciˈaz̠o̞me̞] (mediopassive) --> _to be friɡhtened, terrified_.


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## Frank78

Yendred said:


> That _shade_ must be created by something (a tree or building, etc., that hides the sun), right?



Yeah basically you're right. Elroy's "it isn't associated with a particular person or thing" could be a bit misleading. Of course there must be an object to create shade. Here's my try:

A shadow is created on a surface and has the shape of the object between the sun (or any other light source) and the surface and is two dimensional, like a picture.

Shade is the darker space behind that object. So it's three dimensional.






The triangle between the moon and the earth is shade (umbra) and what is being cast on the earth's surface is a shadow.


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## Yendred

Frank78 said:


> A shadow is created on a surface and has the shape of the object between the sun (or any other light source) and the surface and is two dimensional, like a picture.
> 
> Shade is the darker space behind that object. So it's three dimensional.


Cristal clear, thank you


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## Yendred

elroy said:


> “à l’ombre” is probably a fixed phrase


Not a fixed phrase, but although you can also say "_dans l'ombre_" with this meaning, "_à l'ombre_" is more natural.

Moreover, "_dans l'ombre_" and "_à l'ombre_" carry different and not interchangeable abstract meanings:
- "_dans l'ombre_" also means _hidden, concealed, discreet_.
- "_à l'ombre_" is also a slang way to say "_in prison_".


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## apmoy70

Not related to anything we've discussed so far gentlemen, I just remembered a saying we use when we learn about absurd court cases that are of minor importance but the media worldwide blow it out of proportion, *«περὶ ὄνου σκιᾶς/σκιῆς» *(ancient Greek phonology) [pɛˌriˈonu.skiˈa:s] or [pɛˌriˈonu.skiˈɛ:s] --> _about the shade of an ass_. 
It's about a case brought by the orator Demosthenes to the assembly in Athens:
"A young man from Athens hired an ass in Megara, in the middle of the summer. But being the sun blazing hot, both the lessor and the lessee wanted to sit in the shade (of the ass). They pressed each other, but one said he had rented the ass, not the shade, but the other that he had rented the right to have everything. And after he (Demosthenes) had told this, he went away. But when the Athenians stopped him and asked to learn the end of the story, he said: "Oh, about the shade of an ass you want to hear, but when I speak about important matters of state you don't want to (listen)."


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## AndrasBP

elroy said:


> It’s fascinating that to you the difference is subtle! This would lend support to the theory that language shapes thought.


Yes, good point. ✔️

🔲

The following languages use the same word:

Hungarian: árnyék
Lithuanian: šešėlis
Latvian: ēna 
Mari: ÿмыл (üməl)
Welsh: cysgod


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## Olaszinhok

Yendred said:


> Moreover, "_dans l'ombre_" and "_à l'ombre_" carry different and not interchangeable abstract meanings:


We have the difference above in Italian as well.

P.S. I can't help but mention this: 
*À l'ombre des jeunes filles en fleurs *


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## AutumnOwl

In Swedish we have 'skugga' and 'skuggig'. Skugga means shadow, it's about something casting a shadow. Skuggig is used about shaded places.

Pojkens skugga på väggen - the boy's shadow on the wall
Hon sitter i skuggan av trädet - she sits in the shadow of the tree
Hosta trivs bäst på en skuggig plats - hosta (likes best) prefers a shady spot
Han blev skuggad av polisen - he was shadowed by the police


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## elroy

Frank78 said:


> Elroy's "it isn't associated with a particular person or thing" could be a bit misleading.


I meant in our minds as language users.


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## Terio

French does use the same word *ombre* for both *shade *and *shadow.*

But we have another word, *ombrage*, meaning, basically, what produces shade : it's the *ombrage* of the trees that allows me to sit *à l'ombre*.


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## elroy

Terio said:


> *ombrage*, meaning, basically, what produces shade


Hmmm… what would that be, exactly?  Is there an English word for it?  I looked it up and got “shade.”


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## Yendred

Terio said:


> But we have another word, *ombrage*, meaning, basically, what produces shade : it's the *ombrage* of the trees that allows me to sit *à l'ombre*.


_Ombrage_ is far far less common than _ombre, _and remains almost only in fixed abstract expressions _faire ombrage (to offend) / prendre ombrage (to take umbrage)._


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## Terio

Yendred said:


> _Ombrage_ is far far less common than _ombre, _and remains almost only in fixed abstract expressions _faire ombrage (to offend) / prendre ombrage (to take umbrage)._


But I would easily say : Ces arbres font trop d'ombrage à la maison. Il faut les élaguer : These trees cast too much shade on the house. The must be pruned.


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## Yendred

Terio said:


> But I would easily say : Ces arbres font trop d'ombrage à la maison.


Maybe it's a quebecism  In France, we would just say: _Ces arbres font trop d'ombre à la maison._

The TLFi mentions _ombrage_ as _"vieilli ou littéraire" _in this particular meaning.


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## Terio

Yendred said:


> Maybe it's a quebecism  In France, we would just say: _Ces arbres font trop d'ombre à la maison._
> 
> The TLFi mentions _ombrage_ as _"vieilli ou littéraire" _in this particular meaning.


Not exactly. It is tagged _vieilli ou littéraire _as a synonym of _ombre_, but not in acception I A 1 a : What produces shade.


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## elroy

Terio said:


> What produces shade.


I still don’t know what that’s supposed to be.


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## Yendred

Shade is produced by any opaque body that intercepts the light.


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## elroy

Yendred said:


> Shade is produced by any opaque body that intercepts the light.


Sorry, that’s too scientific/abstract for me.   Can you give a concrete example, maybe with a picture?


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## Yendred

The diagram given by @Frank78 was a good example:





In this case, shade is produced by the Moon that intercepts the light coming from the Sun.


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## elroy

So in that case the moon is the “ombrage”?



Yendred said:


> The TLFi mentions _ombrage_ as _"vieilli ou littéraire" _*in this particular meaning*.





Terio said:


> Not exactly. It is tagged _vieilli ou littéraire _*as a synonym of *_*ombre*_, but not in acception I A 1 a : What produces shade.


Aren’t you saying the same thing?


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## Yendred

I don't use the word _ombrage _with the generic meaning of "_what produces shade_", so I'll let @Terio answer the question, but the TLFi mentions two usages:


> − Ensemble d'arbres, masse de feuillage faisant écran à la lumière du soleil.
> (...)
> − Système de protection contre la lumière solaire.



Obviously, the Moon cannot be considered as a "_sunlight protection system_" and even less a "_set of trees or mass of foliage_"


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## Terio

It's mainly a matter of focus. _Ombrage _puts the focus on the cause : The trees cause shade. _Ombre_ puts the focus on the consequence.

So, you may want to prune the trees to reduce there _ombrage_, their screenig effect, in a way. The consequence of the pruning will be less _ombre._

In that sense, it's still used. (Maybe more here en Quebec than in France, I don't know.) Maybe I use it more than most people because I like gardening and shade may be a problem for some plants.

But to say : I'm sitting _à l'ombrage _of the trees (instead of _à l'ombre) _would be litterary or old-fashioned, I agree.


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## Yendred

Terio said:


> But to say : I'm sitting _à l'ombrage _of the trees (instead of _à l'ombre) _would be litterary or old-fashioned, I agree.


That's the least we can say, since as mentioned by @Olaszinhok, Proust didn't entitle his work "_À l'ombrage des jeunes filles en fleurs_"


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## symposium

In Italian there is also the very old-fashioned and very little-known word "rezzo", a place in the shade. It was mostly used in poetry, the usual stuff like merry shepherdesses sitting al rezzo singing and playing pipes, still it does exist, it's there. It would't be incorrect to translate Proust's novel as Al rezzo delle fanciulle in fiore...


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## hx1997

Mandarin:
shade - 阴凉处, 荫庇处, (of a tree) 树荫
shadow - 影子
But these two concepts are not completely unrelated, since there is the word 阴影, which combines the 阴 in the word for shade and the 影 in the word for shadow, and it can mean either depending on the context.


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## Penyafort

elroy said:


> _Let’s sit in the shade.
> I can see my shadow._



Same word in Catalan too:
_Seiem *a l'ombra.*_​_Puc veure la meva *ombra*._​​


Yendred said:


> - "_à l'ombre_" is also a slang way to say "_in prison_".


Same thing in Catalan (*a l'ombra*) and Spanish (*a la sombra*).



Terio said:


> But we have another word, *ombrage*, meaning, basically, what produces shade : it's the *ombrage* of the trees that allows me to sit *à l'ombre*.



The word also exists in Catalan, *ombratge*, and a synonym, *ombradiu*, but they're rather literary. A better known word is *obaga*, which refers to the shady sides in mountains, valleys and other spots, in opposition to the _solell_ or sunny side.


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## AndrasBP

elroy said:


> Sorry, that’s too scientific/abstract for me.  Can you give a concrete example, maybe with a picture?


A lampshade?


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## Yendred

Penyafort said:


> A better known word is *obaga*, which refers to the shady sides in mountains, valleys and other spots, in opposition to the _solell_ or sunny side.


Do you remember we have had a discussion about _adret _and _ubac _in another thread?


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## Welsh_Sion

Welsh: cysgod
______________
While I accept @AndrasBP's analysis of one word for both 'shade' and 'shadow', I draw your attention to some dialectical southern Welsh words* for the former only:

*göoer, gŵer, gywer, gwerfa*

(*Being a northerner, none of these are familiar to me ...)

Geiriadur yr Academi | The Welsh Academy English-Welsh Dictionary Online

Are we also to draw attention to other meanings of 'a shade'?


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## Terio

Yendred said:


> That's the least we can say, since as mentioned by @Olaszinhok, Proust didn't entitle his work "_À l'ombrage des jeunes filles en fleurs_"


Il eût fallu que ce fût _*Sous* l'ombrage des jeunes filles en fleurs._


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## apmoy70

Yendred said:


> Do you remember we have had a discussion about _adret _and _ubac _in another thread?


Adret: *«Προσήλια πλαγιά»* [pro̞ˈs̠ili.aplaˈʝa] (both fem.) --> _exposed to the sun/sunny slope_ < adj. *«προσήλιος, -λια, -λιο»* [pro̞ˈs̠ili.o̞s̠] (masc.), [pro̞ˈs̠ili.a] (fem.), [pro̞ˈs̠ili.o̞] (neut.) --> _sunny, exposed to the sun_ < Classical adj. *«προσήλιος, -ος, -ον» prŏsḗlĭŏs* (masc. and fem.), *prŏsḗlĭŏn* (neut.), a compound= prefix and preposition *«πρός» prós* + Classical masc. noun *«ἥλιος» hḗlĭŏs* --> _sun_.
*«Πλαγιά»* [plaˈʝa] (fem.) is _slope_, after synizesis from the Classical nominalised fem. form *«πλαγίᾱ» plăɡíā* --> _slope_ of the adj. *«πλάγιος, -ίᾱ, -ιον» plắɡĭŏs* (masc.), *plăɡíā* (fem.), *plắɡĭŏn* (neut.) --> _oblique, athwart, sloping, crooked_, (neuter pl.) τὰ πλάγια, tằ plắɡĭă, _the sides, flanks_ (from a possible PIE root *ploɡ-/*plaɡ- with coɡnates the OHG flah, _flat_, OS flaka, _sole of foot_, OE flōc, _flounder_).

Ubac: *«Αντέρεισμα»* [anˈde̞ɾizma] (neut.) < Classical neuter noun *«ἀντέρεισμα» ăntéreismă* --> _craɡ, bluff, buttress_, a compound= prefix and preposition *«ἀντί» ăntí* + Classical v. *«ἐρείδω» ĕreídō* --> _to prop, support_ (from a possible PIE root *h₁rei̯d- _to support_ and coɡnate the Latin ridica, _stake_). «Αντέρεισμα» is usually the opposite dark and dim chine of a mountain range.


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## Zareza

In Romanian  -  the same word *umbră* for both *shade *and *shadow*.


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## Ghabi

*Cantonese:*

shade: jam1/jam3 陰 (almost always used together with "tree"), in classical Chinese also for "ubac"
shadow: jing2 影
shadow (metaphorical): jam1jing2 陰影 as in "under the shadow of his famous father" etc, also used for "trauma"


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## elroy

I’m not surprised Cantonese makes a distinction!  My impression based on your posts is that generally Cantonese is semantically very precise!


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## Włoskipolak 72

elroy said:


> A number of languages use the same word for “shade” and “shadow.”  I’ve heard so many non-native speakers of English use “shadow” for “shade,” as in “It’s hot.  Let’s sit in the shadow,” which sounds really funny in English.
> 
> Interestingly, Arabic, like English, uses two different words:
> 
> shade: فيء /fajʔ/ (Standard); في /fajj/ (Palestinian)
> shadow: ظل /ðˤill/ (Standard); خيال /xaja:l/ (Palestinian)
> 
> Languages that use the same word:
> German: Schatten
> Spanish: sombra
> 
> What about other languages?





Terio said:


> French does use the same word *ombre* for both *shade *and *shadow.*
> 
> But we have another word, *ombrage*, meaning, basically, what produces shade : it's the *ombrage* of the trees that allows me to sit *à l'ombre*.



In Polish we have different words ;

*cień *=  shadow
*odcień *=  shade ?
*półcień* =  penumbra

*ocieniony* =  shadowed , ombragé
*zacieniony

cieniowany* =  ombrage / shading ?

*cień cienia* =  shadow of a shadow ?

*cieniować *(verb)*= *ombrer

*podcieniowanie *«ciemniejsza część rysunku» = the darker part of the drawing

*podcieniować * «lekko przyciemnić rysunek lub położyć delikatny cień pod czymś albo wokół czegoś» = slightly darken the drawing or put a soft shadow under or around something


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## Yendred

Włoskipolak 72 said:


> *cień cienia* = shadow of a shadow ?


What's this? Is it an expression?

It reminds me of Jacques Brel's words:
_Laisse moi devenir l'ombre de ton ombre (Let me become the shadow of your shadow)
L'ombre de ta main, l'ombre de ton chien (The shadow of your hand, the shadow of your dog)
Mais ne me quitte pas... (But don't leave me)_


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## Linnets

elroy said:


> A puddle comes from the rain, but you don’t say “I dropped my key in the rain.”


But you can say "I dropped my key in the snow." 



Frank78 said:


> The triangle between the moon and the earth is shade (umbra) and what is being cast on the earth's surface is a shadow.


_Umbra_ is _ombra_ in Italian and _penumbra_ is _penombra_, also in astronomical sense.



Yendred said:


> Moreover, "_dans l'ombre_" and "_à l'ombre_" carry different and not interchangeable abstract meanings:
> - "_dans l'ombre_" also means _hidden, concealed, discreet_.
> - "_à l'ombre_" is also a slang way to say "_in prison_".


_All'ombra_ e _al fresco_ in Italian.



Olaszinhok said:


> We have the difference above in Italian as well.


But in the second case we use _fresco_ instead of _ombra_...



symposium said:


> In Italian there is also the very old-fashioned and very little-known word "rezzo", a place in the shade.


In Tuscany we can say _mirizzo_ ad well, a cross between _meriggio_ and _rezzo_.



Penyafort said:


> The word also exists in Catalan, _ombratge_, and a synonym, _ombradiu_, but they're rather literary. A better known word is _obaga_, which refers to the shady sides in mountains, valleys and other spots, in opposition to the _solell_ or sunny side.


_Ombraggio_ is rare but exists in Italian too: 'shade created by trees or thick vegetation.'


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## Włoskipolak 72

Yendred said:


> What's this? Is it an expression?
> 
> It reminds me of Jacques Brel's words:
> _Laisse moi devenir l'ombre de ton ombre (Let me become the shadow of your shadow)
> L'ombre de ta main, l'ombre de ton chien (The shadow of your hand, the shadow of your dog)
> Mais ne me quitte pas... (But don't leave me)_


​*cień cienia* = shadow of a shadow ? 
in Polish it means a trace, almost imperceptible amount of something. (śladowa, prawie niezauważalna ilość czegoś)


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## djara

elroy said:


> shade: فيء /fajʔ/ (Standard); في /fajj/ (Palestinian)
> shadow: ظل /ðˤill/ (Standard); خيال /xaja:l/ (Palestinian)


At 70+, I never heard فيء used to mean shade. I therefore had to check.
It may have come to mean shade in Palestinian Arabic, but in "standard" Arabic, dictionary definitions say something different.
It seems that فيء is shade/shadow from noon to sunset while الظل is shade/shadow from sunrise to noon.
*والفيء*: ما ينسخ الشمس، *وهو من الزوال إلى الغرب*، كما أن الظل ما نسخته الشمس، وهو من الطلوع إلى الزوال.
كتاب التعريفات للشريف الجرجاني
This meaning seems to derive from the root's first meaning of "return"


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## elroy

Linnets said:


> But you can say "I dropped my key in the snow."


That's right.  That's because snow is snow whether it's falling down or on the ground, but with the exception of rain gauge measurements (where we might speak of "one inch of rain," for example), rain is only rain while it's falling down!



djara said:


> It seems that فيء is shade/shadow from noon to sunset while الظل is shade/shadow from sunrise to noon.


Oh wow!  I assumed it must mean the same as it does in Palestinian Arabic!  So do *both* فيء and ظل mean *both* “shade” and “shadow,” then, and it just depends on the time of day?   To me فيء الرجل and جلست في الظل sound very very strange!  

What’s it like in Tunisian?


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## alfaalfa

Ciao


Penyafort said:


> A better known word is *obaga*, which refers to the shady sides in mountains, valleys and other spots, in opposition to the _solell_ or sunny side.


In *Italian* we have _bacìo _(shady) and _solatìo _(sunny)_._


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## djara

elroy said:


> What’s it like in Tunisian?


In Tunisian, ظل is used for both shade and shadow.
Locally, the word خيال is used for shadow, never for shade. It is also used figuratively when you remember someone you like/miss (خيالك ما بين عيني)


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## Awwal12

By the way, while in Russian both "shade" and "shadow" are represented by the word тень (ten'), the masculine diminutive-affective nouns тенёк (tenyók) and тенёчек (tenyóchek) can refer only to shade.


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## Drakonica

Włoskipolak 72 said:


> In Polish we have different words ;
> 
> *cień *=  shadow
> *odcień *=  shade ?
> *półcień* =  penumbra


But *shade *(a darker place to sit) and *shadow *(a shape wich is casted) are both just: *cień*.


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## apmoy70

Awwal12 said:


> By the way, while in Russian both "shade" and "shadow" are represented by the word тень (ten'), the masculine diminutive-affective nouns тенёк (tenyók) and тенёчек (tenyóchek) can refer only to shade.


Τhere's something similar in colloquial MoGreek too, while *«σκιά»* is both _shadow_ & _shade_, the masculine colloquial  *«ίσκιος»* [ˈis̠.co̞s̠] is _shade_ < Byz. Gr. masc. noun *«ἥσκιος» ḗskios* (idem) < Koine adjective *«ἰσκιερός» ĭskĭĕrós* --> _shady, sunless_, from *«σκιά»* with prothetic initial vowel; the lengthening of the initial vowel and rough breathing *ἰ *> *ἥ *in Medieval Greek, are the products of the merging of the feminine definite article *«ἡ» *with the noun *«σκιά»* (although in Byzantine Greek the pronunciation of the spiritus asper, was already gone)


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## Mahaodeh

elroy said:


> Oh wow! I assumed it must mean the same as it does in Palestinian Arabic! So do *both* فيء and ظل mean *both* “shade” and “shadow,” then, and it just depends on the time of day? To me فيء الرجل and جلست في الظل sound very very strange!


Actually you can’t say فيء الرجل as it never means shadow. الفيء is the shade after midday when the sun moves. According to several sources it seems that at the time of Classical Arabic they defined the shade as a place where the sun was and then left so before noon it would have been a shadow from an object obstructing sunlight.

Also الظل can be used to refer to a shadow from any light source (sun, moon, fire …. Etc.) while الفيء only for the sunlight. Hence at night or inside there is only ظل.

This might explain why in several dialects الفي became exclusively for shade (other Levantine dialects, Iraqi, and some Gulf dialects at least), while it completely fell out of use in others and only ظل is used. They just simplified the use in both cases I suppose.


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