# English pronunciation of I-ending latin words



## aefrizzo

Hello.
 Listening to english acquaintances of mine from diffferent fields, for some years I have been thinking that the "correct" english pronunciation of latin words ending by the vowel *i* requires a stress on last syllable and the phoneme *aI* as in"file". 
Bronch'*aI* (anatomy)
Gemin'*aI *(astronomy)
Philipp'*aI* (geo-history).

Have I been imagining a non-existent rule?
WR and other dictionaries do not discard other kind of stress and pronunciation.

Thank you.
Latin.... has always been (spoken and) sung according to local patterns and rhythms of pronunciation....(Scholiast, thread on ecclesiastical pronunciation)


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## Kevin Beach

Since [ai] became the pronunciation of i in English, several hundred years ago, the English pronunciation of Latin followed it. Hence, the odd sounding Grace before Meals, still uttered by some traditionalists, "Benedaissit benedassitay" for "Benedicit benedicite"

About a century ago, there began a move back towards a sort of reconstructed Classical Latin pronunciation in English circles, so that i is now rarely pronounced as [ai], except where it is in a word that has been incorporated into English general usage and the "old" pronunciation has been retained. The words you have quoted all entered English from Latin much earlier than the 20th century, so they have kept the [ai] pronunciation. However, it should never be used in Latin itself. It was an aberration when it was used at all and it is best confined to this quirk of English Latin history.


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## Scholiast

Salvete!

I am moved to wonder whether Kevin (Beach, last post - who is of course quite right about the (mis-)pronunciation), has remembered correctly the Grace he quotes: _benedicit benedicite_ could only mean "He [God] blesses, you bless [imperative, 'in return']". I wonder where this originates from, and whether anyone is still saying it thus.

The Grace I remember is _benedictus benedicat_, "May the blessed one [God] bless [the meal/us]". But presumably Kevin and I went to different schools or colleges...

Σ


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## Kevin Beach

Scholiast said:


> Salvete!
> 
> I am moved to wonder whether Kevin (Beach, last post - who is of course quite right about the (mis-)pronunciation), has remembered correctly the Grace he quotes: _benedicit benedicite_ could only mean "He [God] blesses, you bless [imperative, 'in return']". I wonder where this originates from, and whether anyone is still saying it thus.
> 
> The Grace I remember is _benedictus benedicat_, "May the blessed one [God] bless [the meal/us]". But presumably Kevin and I went to different schools or colleges...
> 
> Σ



It wasn't a grace that my school used, Scholiast. I heard it elsewhere. I understood it was translated as "Bless [the one who] blesses [us][the food]!


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## aefrizzo

Thank you for your answer. 
I suppose  there must have been some method inside that "aberration... at all".
Admittedly, in the latin words I quoted, the final voweil "i" is prosodically long regardless of any stress. Why on the earth did your ancestors put the stress on the last syllable, ignoring the latin barytonesis?


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## wandle

I do not agree that in the traditional old-fashioned English pronunciation of Latin there is any rule putting a stress on the final _*i*_. It is true that in that pronunciation the letter *i* in final position was and indeed still is in many cases pronounced as a long English *i*, rhyming with 'sigh'. The non-final *i* is sometimes long, but may also be pronounced to rhyme with 'sit' or 'see'.

For example, at school, though I was taught the real pronunciation of Latin and required to use that normally, nevertheless the name 'Anchises' was pronounced in English by rhyming the vowels with 'sat', 'sigh' and 'see' respectively. However, in speaking Latin, we had to pronounce the name correctly, rhyming the last two vowels with 'see' and 'say'.

Botanical terms (like medical and legal terms) are still pronounced regularly in Britain with the old pronunciation. Thus in (cupressus) Leylandii, the four vowel sounds rhyme respectively with 'say', 'sat', 'see' and 'sigh'. The main stress falls on the second syllable.

It is true, though, that in practice, when people use the old Latin pronunciation, they often place a special stress on a final *i*. This is not however a natural or correct rendering of the old pronunciation. People do it simply to emphasise the fact that they are pronouncing Latin, or to show the listener that they are using a Latin plural.

Thus people will say 'hippopotami' (vowel sounds: 'sit', 'so', 'sot', 'sat', 'sigh') with a final stress, as if to say:
 'You may be expecting me to say 'hippopotamuses', but I am a knowledgeable person who uses the correct Latin plural'.


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## wandle

Why did the English usage arise in the first place? Religion, politics and laziness probably all played their part.

In England, unlike Germany, say, Catholicism was almost completely wiped out following the Reformation. The monasteries were dissolved by Henry the Eighth. A vast reservoir of continental pronunciation of Latin was lost. There may also have been in the universities and law schools a deliberate fostering of an English pronunciation as a reaction against Romanism. Thus it may have developed as a defiant assertion of English independence of Rome, rather as Webster's Dictionary was conceived deliberately as an assertion of American cultural independence of Britain.

There had of course also been a much earlier and stronger break with Latin culture, when the Romans withdrew from Britain in face of the Anglo-Saxon influx. The Romans arrived in Britain late and left completely. The regions taken over by Angles and Saxons reverted to paganism. On the continent, although Germanic invaders spread far and wide to the south, their incursions did not have the effect of obliterating Roman language and culture, as happened here.

So please have some pity on us poor benighted Britons, sitting on our cloudy island, cut off from the mainstream of Romano-European culture and forced to do our best on our own.


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## aefrizzo

*Andiamo*, Wandle!
I appreciate your sarcasm but do not deserve it. I am just curious as every youngster of my generation, actually I like "your best" as much as any other European one. If my questions hurted you I am sorry.
Notice, please:
1) In my first post I was talking of "imagining a non-existent rule".
2) For a complete understanding of the topic I found your posts(#6-7) very helpful.
3) The way you report the vowel pronunciation (rhyme with...) is to me much more practical than IPA symbols.
Have a nice summer.


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## wandle

aefrizzo said:


> *Andiamo*, Wandle!
> I appreciate your sarcasm but do not deserve it. I am just curious as every youngster of my generation, actually I like "your best" as much as any other European one. If my questions hurted you I am sorry.


You know, I did not intend any sarcasm. No hurt felt or intended. My last remark was only meant humorously, in the self-deprecating English style (as we see it). Thanks for the appreciative comments.


> Have a nice summer.


You too.


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