# Ancient Greek: What is the difference between ε and η?



## Faethin

I did think that they were the same letter, corresponding to the latin /e/, yet I have found them in many contexts that suggest a difference between them.

Oh, and another thing, do the letters σ and ζ correspond to the /s/ and /z/ sounds respectively?

Thanks in advance


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## parakseno

In "classical" Greek they both read as /e/ but η is a longer /e/.
In Modern Greek, ε is read as /e/ and η is read as /i/. I heard that Modern Greeks use the modern pronunciation for the classical texts too (not the Erasmic one).
  Yes, σ and ζ do correspond to the sounds /s/ and /z/ respectively.


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## liloo

Hello!

Parakseno is quite right, though i'm pretty sure ancient greeks did not use the Erasmic pronounciation. 
The modern pronounciation is close to the ancient one, with a few differences, mainly because we only use one particular (and simpler) type of accentuation. 

Also note, that when 'å' is next to 'é' (so you have 'åé') it becomes a diphthong (not sure if i spell it correctly) in which case it's pronounced as 'ç'.


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## parakseno

> Also note, that when 'ε' is next to 'ι' (so you have 'ει') it becomes a diphthong (not sure if i spell it correctly) in which case it's pronounced as 'η'.



you mean as Modern pronunciation of 'η' (/i/ that is)


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## liloo

i think 'ç' has always been pronounced as 'i'... the only difference is, that in ancient times because of the various accentuations, it would either be a long or short 'i'


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## beatrizg

Hola Faethin,

The sound of the Greek 'z' (ζ) is different form the Spanish 'z'.

Es como una 's' fuerte pronunciada entre los dientes casi cerrados. 
No sé si la explicación es muy clara.


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## parakseno

> i think 'η' has always been pronounced as 'i'... the only difference is, that in ancient times because of the various accentuations, it would either be a long or short 'i'


I don't know how ancient Greeks pronounced 'η', but I'm sure that in the Erasmic system it is a long /e/. Even the name of the letter, when we used it at maths and physics for example, is /eta/, unlike the Modern Greek pronunciation /ita/.

Take for example 'ηλιος - sun (I can't write the breathing sign over η). In Modern Greek you would read it /ilios/, while the international word for it is /helios/ (because of the Erasmic pronunciation).

Here is a link to wikipedia: 
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eta_%28letter%29
and yet another page
users.otenet.gr/~bm-celusy/chart1.html#H

(I hope I didn't break the rules by posting these links, but they help explain better what I wanted to say )


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## Faethin

Thanks everyone for the responses!

Gracias, también, Beatrizg. Conozco la diferencia entre el fonema /z/, la "s sonora" y la /s/, la "s muda".

So there is no actual difference between ι and η? I did know that η is called in scientific context 'eta' with the sound of 'e' as in spanish 'estrella', but if so, is there any way to distinguish ι and η in spoken language?


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## parakseno

> So there is no actual difference between ι and η?



In Modern Greek, no. both ι "iota" and η "ita" (this is the Modern Greek name of the letter ) are read as /i/ (as also does υ "ypsilon").


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## beatrizg

Faethin said:
			
		

> Thanks everyone for the responses!
> 
> Gracias, también, Beatrizg. Conozco la diferencia entre el fonema /z/, la "s sonora" y la /s/, la "s muda".
> 
> So there is no actual difference between ι and η? I did know that η is called in scientific context 'eta' with the sound of 'e' as in spanish 'estrella', but if so, is there any way to distinguish ι and η in spoken language?


 
Como te explicó parakseno, en el lenguaje hablado el sonido de la "η" y la "ι" es igual. 
Como dato curioso, también las combinaciones "ει". "οι" y en algunos casos la υ (ypsilon), se pronuncian como la i. Esto hace que la ortografía griega sea muy complicada de aprender. 

En griego a la η se le llama "ita" (no "eta").


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## liloo

You are absolutely right regarding the difference in pronounciation (ilios and helios) but you've got it mixed up with the Erasmian pronounciation.

'ç' was pronounced in various ways (and this was actually the case with all the vowels) because of all the different accentuation marks that were used in ancient greek. So, 'Eleni' was pronounced 'Heleni'.

According to the Erasmian pronounciation, the diphthongs (ie two vowels together forming a new vowel, such as 'åé') are actually pronounced seperately. So, you would read 'åé' as 'e'-'i'. 

However, ancient greeks never used the Erasmic pronounciation, and you can look into the 2nd book of Thucydides's History, from paragraph 50-57, to verify this. In that text, Thucydides describes to the reader how the Atheniens were unable to interpret the prophecy, by which a great war would break out and would bring with it ‘ëïéìï’/'ëéìï'.

‘ëïéìïò’=disease
‘ëéìïò’=famine
both words are pronounced _limos_

If they had been using the Erasmic pronounciations, ‘ëïéìïò’ would be pronounced as l-o-i-m-o-s and so it would be quite clear to them whether the war would bring famine or disease to their city.

But because they were pronounced exactly the same, the Atheniens were confused.

(many prophecies were ambiguous, because the oracles wouldn't write them down, so they were open to interpretation)


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## parakseno

> 'η' was pronounced in various ways (and this was actually the case with all the vowels) because of all the different accentuation marks that were used in ancient greek. So, 'Eleni' was pronounced 'Heleni'.



Yep, that's correct... When the vowel had the breathing "_spiritus asper_" (the latin name of it, I don't know the Greek name though - shame on me ) which looked like an inverted comma on top of the letter (or at the left if it was a capital letter), then you would have an /h/ in front of the word... like in the "helios" example. There is yet another breathing called "spiritus lenis" which did not change the way you pronounced the vowels. This happens only at the beginning of the words.
In Modern Greek, there are no more breathings and only one accent (unlike classical Greek which had 2 breathings and 3 accent marks) so things are much easier. 



> However, ancient greeks never used the Erasmic pronounciation, and you can look into the 2nd book of Thucydides's History, from paragraph 50-57, to verify this. In that text, Thucydides describes to the reader how the Atheniens were unable to interpret the prophecy, by which a great war would break out and would bring with it ‘ëïéìï’/'ëéìï'.



That's a very interesting piece of information liloo. Ευχαριστώ!

Oh... and I never said that ancient Greeks used the Erasmic pronunciation. Just that it is this pronunciation that is used at most, if not at all Universities (except the Greek ones) when it comes to reading Classical Greek.


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## liloo

Hi parakseno!

oops! my mistake...thought you said that they did use the Erasmic pronounciation. 
And you're absolutely right in what you say about the majority of the universities...

how come you know so much about the greek language? 
is it something you're studying?


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## Outsider

liloo said:
			
		

> However, ancient greeks never used the Erasmic pronounciation, and you can look into the 2nd book of Thucydides's History, from paragraph 50-57, to verify this.


Whether or not Thucydides used the Erasmian pronunciation of Greek, the ancient Greeks certainly did not pronounce eta/ita as an iota.


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## parakseno

I'm trying to learn Modern Greek... and I did a little research about Classical Greek too... after all, they are one language. It's true that you can learn Modern Greek wihout worrying about Classical Greek, but... I like worrying .
And besides, there are some peculiarities in Modern Greek that have the roots in the ancient language... so I guess it would be nice if I knew them both...


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## Outsider

Here's a good link for you, in that case.


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## parakseno

Hi hi hi... and the "war" never stops...

Thanks for the link!


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## liloo

well, good luck parakseno...if you have any questions feel free to ask!

I think that it would be easier if you had a look at 'katharevousa' first, before attempting to learn ancient greek. 
It's a form that grammatically and structurally falls between ancient and modern greek, it's what my parents were taught at school, and you'd be glad to know that all the accentuation marks are used

It's not that easy to learn, but certainly easier than ancient greek and will definitely help you a lot.


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## parakseno

liloo, sou estila ena PM... Mipos tha einai kalytera na milame sto PM... apomakrynomaste apo to epsilon kai ita 

Thanks for the tip... I will try that, though I couldn't find any kathareuousa resources on the Net (except some explanations of what it is).

Euxaristo xana!


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## liloo

just saw it parakseno!

nai, an thes synexizoume me PM ti suzhthsi...ok?


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## Spectre scolaire

I wonder if the onomatopoetic βη in Aristophanes should be pronounced [bæ] or [vi].

Here we are faced with two options:

a) The sheep in Classical Greece spoke another dialect. 

b) The argument produced by those who think that Erasmus _invented_ a new way of pronouncing Greek, is pure imagination. 

The original sound value of the representation ε is a “short, closed e”, whereas that of η is a “long open e”.The reason why the Greeks reserved two letters to denote these sounds was obviously that they represented two different phonemes in the language. The Greek alphabet – as it was “institutionalized” in 403 BC – was a masterpiece of correspondance between sound and letter. Of course, the digraph ου was ambiguous – both a diphthong and a “long closed u”, and the letter υ represented both long and short [y]. But this was of very little importance. The fundamentally important issue was to make a distinction between _indicative_ and _subjunctive_. In this respect, crucial distinctions had to be made between ‘short, closed e’ (ε) and ‘short, closed o’ (ο) on one side and ‘long, open e’ (η) and ‘long, open o’ (ω) on the other.


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## Outsider

Spectre scolaire said:


> I wonder if the onomatopoetic ?? in Aristophanes should be pronounced [bæ] or [vi].


Why not [be:]?


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## Spectre scolaire

Or perhaps [bε:] indicating a rather more open e than IPA [e]. IPA's [æ:] corresponding somehow to Hiberno-English "bad", may be too much of it.

To determine the precise colour of the vowel is wishful thinking.


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## modus.irrealis

Outsider said:


> Why not [be:]?



Just to add, η must have been [e:] at some point in its history to end up where it is now, but in Classical Athens (at least) it was [ε:] and ει was [e:]. But even earlier there are some indications that it was [æ:] like Spectre scolaire says.



Spectre scolaire said:


> To determine the precise colour of the vowel is wishful thinking.



I agree with this, which is why I've always wondered about why ε gets almost universally described as close (although Allen in _Vox Graeca_ disagrees). The way I see it, the salient feature of ε was its being short and beyond that it's tough to say.


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