# to conclude / decide



## ThomasK

You will agree there is a link between the two, at least in some respects. Now, I wonder: how do you translate both ? Do you happen to have one word for the two ? 

Can you please tell me - not just the word in your language  but also - whether it contains (or refers to) another word ? Like 
 - conclude / Dutch 'besluiten' - it contains a reference to *locking* (up), lcoking off 
 - decide/ Dutch 'beslissen' - contains a reference to *cutting*, I believe.


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## jazyk

In Portuguese:

conclude = concluir, from Latin concludere, lit. to close together
decide = decidir, from Latin decidere, lit. to cut off

This is at least how I interpret the etymology of the words based on my Latin and the elements that compose them.


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## ThomasK

I guess Romanic languages (and even West Germanic languages) will not lead to astonishing conclusions, but let us hope for some more from Northern Germanic, Finnish-Ugrian, Middle Eastern, ... languages.


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## apmoy70

In Greek:
-Conclude=Περαίνω (per*e*no), from the ancient Greek verb πειραίνω (pī'renō) which derives from the noun πεῖραρ ('pīrar, _n._)->the goal. Περαίνω->to achieve a goal.
More colloquially, τελειώνω (teli*o*no), from the ancient Greek verb τελείω (te'līō) or τελέω (te'leō), from the noun τέλος ('telos, _n._: the goal)->to complete an objective, to achieve a goal.  
-Decide=Αποφασίζω (apofas*i*zo), from the medieval verb ἀποφασίζω (apofa'sizō), which in turn derives from the ancient Greek noun ἀπόφανσις (a'popʰansis, _f._: declaration). Αποφασίζω initially was used only by the judges when they made their decision publicly and meant "to render a decision".


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## ThomasK

This is very interesting. I wonder whether there are any of these purpose-related verbs in Germanic languages (we seem to focus on the end of the decision process, not the end/ telos of the activity - except in finalizing, but that has nothing to do with deciding)...


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## Maroseika

Russian 
*to decide* - решать - literally (etymologically) - to untie, but this sense arised only in Baltic and Slavic languages. The very word derivates from the stem meaning in IE "to cut off" (like in MHD _rist _- colter, modern Islandic and Swedish _rista _- to cut off, cut out).
*to conclude *- заключить - literally to lock up, but most likely this is a German calque (_abschließen_), so not too much interesting here unlike *to decide,* which is pure Slavic semantically. 
Also,
*to conclude* - завершить - literally  "to end up smth., closing up its top".


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## ccesarjj

In Spanish

conclude = concluir
decide = decidir

I guess the case for Portuguese can also be applied here


jazyk said:


> In Portuguese:
> 
> conclude = concluir, from Latin concludere, lit. to close together
> decide = decidir, from Latin decidere, lit. to cut off
> 
> This is at least how I interpret the etymology of the words based on my Latin and the elements that compose them.


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## sakvaka

Finno-Ugrian languages give you the hope.

*Finnish: *_päättää_ and _päättää _(possibly derived from _pää_ - head, end)


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## ThomasK

Thanks ! Isn't there a link between _conclude_ and _päätää_ (end) ? What is het link with/ between _head_ and _end_ ? 

Don't you have a separate verb for deciding ?


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## sakvaka

ThomasK said:


> Thanks ! Isn't there a link between _conclude_ and _päättää_ (end) ? What is het link with/ between _head_ and _end_ ?
> 
> Don't you have a separate verb for deciding ?


 
If you conclude a letter/a speech with some words, you _päättää_ it. The meaning is "to bring to an end; close".

If you decide to do something, you also _päättää_ it. The meaning is "to make up one's mind".

The link between _head_ (body part) and _end_ (~ of a rope, for example) is that they're translated with the same word in Finnish (the head is also the upper end of your body).

I believe there's a connection between making up your mind and the word "head", just as well as there's a connection between concluding something and bringing it up to an end.

_Päättää_ *is* the most common word for deciding


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## ThomasK

Very interesting:so one word for the two ! 

'Head'/ 'end' : interesting association. We would _van hoofd tot voeten_, _from head to feet_, considering the feet the real end ;-), so I think. I really wonder whether we have that association. But very itneresting indeed.


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## Maroseika

sakvaka said:


> I believe there's a connection between making up your mind and the word "head",


I dare say this looks a bit "artificial". A lot of thing we do by use of the mind installed inside our head, why then only deciding and concluding are connected with this part of the body?
I'd rather say, the head is a symbol of a top of any kind: top of a body, top of a work, top of the reasoning, etc., etc. As we say in Russian: Конец - делу венец (The end crowns the work).


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## ThomasK

That is quite true. But we were concerned with deciding and concluding, you see. 

How about deciding and concluding in Russian ? The same word ?


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## Maroseika

I've already described that above.


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## ThomasK

Sorry, M, had missed that message ! Thanks a lot !


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## Favara

jazyk said:


> In Portuguese:
> 
> conclude = concluir, from Latin concludere, lit. to close together
> decide = decidir, from Latin decidere, lit. to cut off
> 
> This is at least how I interpret the etymology of the words based on my Latin and the elements that compose them.


Same in Catalan, _concloure_ and _decidir_. As a side note, if you take the _con _out of_ concloure_, you got _cloure_, meaning "to close".


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## Volcano

*In Turkish

I can say karara varmak for both.*


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## ThomasK

Thank you, but as my knowledge of Turkish is non-existent: can you analyse those two words somehow? Do they refer to locking, head, ending, or any of the kind ?


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## Zsanna

In the meantime, I'll give the Hungarian.


ThomasK said:


> You will agree there is a link between the two, at least in some respects.


No, I'm sorry, I can't see any whatsoever... but I hope it'll become clear why after the translation and my attempts for explaning them.
N.B. In English _conclude_ can be the synonym of _decide_ meanwhile in Hungarian I wouldn't think so...


ThomasK said:


> ...how do you translate both ? Do you happen to have one word for the two ?


I think the reason is exactly here: we have very different expressions for the two (even if - like in the Finnish example - we do use a verb that comes from "head" in one of them... funnily enough, however, not in the case when you really have to make up your mind, i.e. in the case of _decide_!)
To pick up the Finnish sentences (for better comparison):
to conclude (a letter) = *befejez* (egy levelet) where 
"be" (= in) is a preverb that indicates here (as opposed to its original meaning) that the action is carrried to its end 
+
"fejez", the verb, coming from "fej" (=head), is diffcult to translate (apart from to _end_) because it does not exist without a preverb of some sort. (Or maybe: "start to finish"? Not obvious!)
(It is not the same verb as in "to _head_ the ball into the goal" - that would be *fejel* in Hungarian of the same root.)
Nothing to do with "locking" or "cutting", I'm afraid. (At least etimologically.)
As the word "chapter" is _fejezet_ in Hungarian, I somehow get the impression as if it indicated a conclusion of something like a (fairly) _special_, _separate or_ _independent_ unit. 
(But then "fej" in Hungarian also has the meaning of "individual/person", an "item/piece of something", "important" and lots of others... I think it'd worth an entire thread to compare all the possible meanings of *head* in our different languages! I know that in Hungarian it'd be a long list and some of the items in it would not be easy to explain...) 
*****
And now_ to decide to do sg_ : elhataroz (accent on the 2nd "a") or eldönt. (Both are used equally often.)
The 1st having its root in "hatar" (= boundary/ frontier line/limit); not really very obvious how it lead to decide - unless we think of something like "outlining the frontiers/establishing the borders of what you want or how you want it".
The other, coming from "dönt" is a bit clearer: the first image you have is a tree that you cut out (when it has *fall*en -> ki*döl*t, it is cut out -> kidöntött - which verb gave the root? probably _fall_!). 
However, in its abstract use, it is (most significantly) what a judge does at the end of a court case (= decides about the case). 
In other words, _decide_ in Hungarian is more connected to separating what you want from the other alternatives or coming to a judgement about something, at least in my reading...


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## ThomasK

Thanks, Zsanna, but I need more time to really go into that. Especially the last line seems quite interesting or even challenging because in order to translate we ought to see what we mean precisely.

I can say I agree that when you think of _a conclusion of a letter_, there is no obvious link. However, I think there is one, if you think of... decision-making process. No ? 

By the way, maybe we ought to distinguish to _decide about _(a choice) and _to decide to do_ something.


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## ThomasK

Again no decent reply, but maybe there is a good... conclusion to be drawn from Zsanna's contribution: *what (meaning of) conclude are we talking about?* Maybe next time I ought to give a specific context. Or I can do it here. 

The resemblance to me was *both are steps in (the) decision-making (process)*:
- the conclusion is the final stage of the preparation (of the decision-making process): looking backwards mainly
- the decision then is going for a practical way of implementing the conclusion, so I (now) think: looking ahead

*That difference* becomes clear from *the use* : 
- _to conclude_ has a _from_ adjunct (adjunct ?/ Prep. obj.) and/or a _that_ clause object or a direct object (very concrete) 
- _to decide_ is followed by an _on_ adjunct in English or a to clause (elliptical clause ?), showing that it points to the future

[DUTCH] The funny thing I now realize is that we can use _besluiten_ in Dutch in both ways : _we besloten (or we beslisten [decided] __te vertrekken/ we decided (*concluded) to leave_. 

So: a more precise question could be : do you have different verbs (and different syntactical combinations) for 
*(1) conclude [a letter, a meeting maybe, ...]*
*(2) conclude ... from ... that ..., *
*(3) decide to ... ?*

And every time again I wonder whether you use some kind of metaphor in it. Just hoping everyone is willing to check the answers


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## ThomasK

Zsanna said:


> to conclude (a letter) = *befejez* (egy levelet) - maybe: "start to finish"? Not obvious!)
> 
> *****
> And now_ to decide to do sg_ : elhataroz (accent on the 2nd "a") or eldönt. (Both are used equally often.)
> The 1st having its root in "hatar" (= boundary/ frontier line/limit)
> 
> The other, coming from "dönt" is a bit clearer: the first image you have is a tree that you cut out (when it has *fall*en -> ki*döl*t, it is cut out -> kidöntött - which verb gave the root? probably _fall_!).
> 
> In other words, _decide_ in Hungarian is more connected to separating what you want from the other alternatives or coming to a judgement about something, at least in my reading...


 
I wondered: 
 - concluding is arriving at the *main/ chief/ head things* (how do you feel about that, Zsanna ?)
 - decide and define both contain this *de-:* it means, I think, that one chooses this option - and thus cannot (de-) pursue the other track 
 - felling and falling: I also wondered whether the *'cidere'* refers to 'caedere' (cutting in Latin, also suggested by etymology-online.org) or to 'cadere' (falling in Latin); in Dutch we can also 'de knoop doorhakken' [*chop through (literally)/ slice the knot*], but we can 'een besluit vellen' *[to fell (lit.) a decision].* 

_(Oh good lord, I just hope all this __ proves useful in some way...)_


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## Zsanna

ThomasK said:


> Especially the last line seems quite interesting or even challenging because in order to translate we ought to see what we mean precisely.


Sorry, I didn't quite see what you meant there... (Of course one cannot translate without knowing _what_ is there to be translated exactly! 
But I don't quite see how _translating_ comes into the picture here.



ThomasK said:


> I can say I agree that when you think of _a conclusion of a letter_, there is no obvious link. However, I think there is one, if you think of... decision-making process. No ?


OK, to put it crudely: conclude can either have the meaning to "finish (off)" or to "write the conclusion of" in Hungarian. 
There is no way it can express to "decide".
Even if "to write the conclusion of" may imply some sort of decision somewhere.



ThomasK said:


> By the way, maybe we ought to distinguish to _decide about _(a choice) and _to decide to do_ something.


Isn't it a bit late to change your mind?  
Actually, I don't really see the reason, either... What do you think it'd change?


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## Zsanna

ThomasK said:


> I wondered:
> - concluding is arriving at the *main/ chief/ head things* (how do you feel about that, Zsanna ?)


Not really... As I indicated earlier, the verb does not exist in a ("normal") dictionary and it does not have a "set" meaning but the "feeling" it gives could be described most by a curve pointing down + "_pluff! here is the end of a whole letter_". 
(Warning: other native speakers may easily feel differently about this! )



ThomasK said:


> - felling and falling: I also wondered whether the *'cidere'* refers to 'caedere' (cutting in Latin, also suggested by etymology-online.org) or to 'cadere' (falling in Latin)


Could well be... (But then it wouldn't be too surprising that Latin should have an influence on either Dutch or Hungarian. )


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## ThomasK

I try to answer all your questions, observations and notes, Zsanna ! ;-)

1. Translation: I only realized late - ok, late, I admit - that _conclude_ is more than what I had in mind (the phase before deciding on a course of action). And that is a danger : other meanings of one verb may simply be translated as other verbs in a language, which I tried to show by referring to syntactical combinations. So that is the link with transalation - and my starting point. 

2. _Conclude_ in my view (in English) means drawing conclusions from a reflection based on dialogue, on exchange, ..., and thus get ready for a decision. In that case it does not have to do with writing. What would you say, are the stages preceding decision ? 

3. _Decide on/ to _+ inf. : I agree that here the difference in meaning is small, very small perhaps. 

4. OK, I think I see. I was simply searching for an interpretation of that head-verb (your description reminds me of... beheading !).

5. Caedere: not so sure it works through Latin. I think all people consider deciding as somehow related to cutting off (one track of thought/ action)...Maybe you read my thread about explaining/ making clear, containing the anti-chaos and the light metaphor. I think those metaphors are fairly universal, not based on Latin... 

(Looking forward - and köszönöm !)


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## ThomasK

This might be the conclusion of our exchange. I am sorry but I had not realized that in other languages you cannot use _besluiten te [vertrekken] (*conclude to [leave]),_ which we can in Dutch. It is due to my being intrigued by the etymology, sorry. 

Maybe i could ask this to conclude: can you - in your language -
a - *conclude from* ? I know you can in Dutch, English, German (schließen), in French (or perhaps _tirer une conclusion de_)
b - *conclude to* [_leave, do something_ - so with infinitive or perhaps that clause]
c - *conclude *+ DO [_conclude a letter/ debate_]


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## apmoy70

In Greek I'd say it's c - *conclude *+ DO [_conclude a letter/ debate_]:
Περαίνω (per*e*no) or τελειώνω (teli*o*no) the work, a letter, a conversation etc.


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## ThomasK

I recognize _telos_, target. _Peraino_ does not have to do with perennis, eternal, does it?


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## ThomasK

I suddenly remembered another pair in German: 
- sich entscheiden (decide - containing 'separate') 
- schließen, zum Schluß kommen (concluding - containing locking)

The funny thing is that in the meantime I realized there is a link between deciding (cutting) and doubting, which is related with the number 'two' (hanging between two... - see duo/dubitare).


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## apmoy70

ThomasK said:


> I recognize _telos_, target. _Peraino_ does not have to do with perennis, eternal, does it?


No, I do not think so, since _Peraino _derives from the noun _Peirar_ _(neuter)-->_the goal, while _Perennis _derives from_ per--> _"through"_ + annus_-->  "year"


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## ThomasK

Thanks, Apmoy, but neuter and goal: is there a link ? I cannot see it right now...


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## apmoy70

ThomasK said:


> Thanks, Apmoy, but neuter and goal: is there a link ? I cannot see it right now...


Peirar is a neuter nour


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## mataripis

Tagalog:1.) Conclude= sapantaha/palagay/_masasabi(commonly used)_/pagkakasuri  2.) Decide= Pasya or kapasyahan


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