# Romance initial s before consonant



## purasbabosadas

I've noticed that in many romance languages an initial "s" sound followed by a consonant has an "e" inserted before it.An example would be the Latin word for star:"Stella".This gives:"Estrela"(Portugues),"Estrella"(Spanish),"Estela"(Occitan),and "Étoile"(French).However,in Italian there's no "e" at the beginning.My question is: Did Italian at an earlier stage have this inserted "e"?


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## berndf

In Italian this _e_ has been dropped again at a later stage. We can see that this was a later, independent step because is also affected words with an etymological vowel in front of _sC_, e.g.: _historia > storia, Hispania > Spagna_.


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## Sardokan1.0

purasbabosadas said:


> I've noticed that in many romance languages an initial "s" sound followed by a consonant has an "e" inserted before it.An example would be the Latin word for star:"Stella".This gives:"Estrela"(Portugues),"Estrella"(Spanish),"Estela"(Occitan),and "Étoile"(French).However,in Italian there's no "e" at the beginning.My question is: Did Italian at an earlier stage have this inserted "e"?



This phenomenon is also present in Sardinian language, but the vowel added is not E but I, if I'm not wrong the identical phenomenon (using I before S) is mostly present in the vulgar Latin inscriptions found throughout North Africa.

I've found this on the web :


Spoiler



98 An Introduction to Vulgar Latin. [§ 231

often e) to the s when tio vowel preceded — in i-schola. This i
or e came to be regarded as a regular part of the word. The
prosthetic vowel occurs first in Greek inscriptions. The
earliest Latin example is probably iscolasticus, written in
Barcelona in the second century; it is found repeatedly, though
not frequently, in the third century (Carnoy 114-116); in the
fourth and fifth it is very common: espiritum, ischola, iscripta,
isperabi, ispose, istatuam, isiudio, S. 317 ; ismaragdus, Pirson 60;
estatio, Estephanus, iscola, istare, R. 467. Grammarians took
no note of it until St. Isidore, in the seventh century. But in
late Latin texts ab rather than a was used before words be-
ginning with sc, sp, st: ab scandalo, Dubois 171; ab sceleribus,
Bon. 445; cf. Dubois 1 71-17 2, Bon. 445-446.




Some Examples of this phenomenon in Sardinian language :


Spoiler



*Latin - Sardinian*

_schola - iscola
stella - istella
scala - iscala
statua - istatua
scire - ischire 
solvere - isolvere
scribere - iscriere
stare - istare_

etc.etc.

Moreover the same thing, due to the phenomenon of hypercorrection has extended to words and verbs that in origin began with EX, which instead turned to IS.

Latin - Sardinian

excutere - iscudere (to beat)
extutare - istudare (to turn off, to extinguish)
excitare - ischidare (to wake up)

etc.etc.


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## Olaszinhok

purasbabosadas said:


> Did Italian at an earlier stage have this inserted "e"?


There was/is an _i_ in Italian, particularly after some prepositions, such as _in_ or _per
Vado/andrò in Isp_agna - I go/am going/ will go to Spain
_In ispagnolo_ - In Spanish
_Per ischerzo_ - as a joke
The above forms are still used in some areas in Tuscany and in old-fashioned/outdated Italian.


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## bearded

Olaszinhok said:


> The above forms are still used in some areas in Tuscany and in old-fashioned/outdated Italian.



And the reason is euphonic, as the cluster _ins/pers+consonant _was perceived as non-harmonious.
There was also: _In Isvizzera.._
And sometimes Italian exaggerates when adding an initial i even if not necessary for euphonic reasons, e.g. in the idiom _Quanto è vero Iddio _(= as true as God is).


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## Riverplatense

The situation in Italian is also different due to its general syllable structure. There's hardly a word ending with a consonant (the ones existing are either foreign words or proclitic words like the ones quoted in the above posts), so in a certain way this prothetic vowel is not necessary because four-consonant clusters like potentially in Spanish (*_si*n* *str*ellas_, *_se*r scr*itor_) aren’t possible (or at least way less frequent) in Italian: _senz*a* stelle_, _esser*e* scrittore_.

Edit:


bearded said:


> _Quanto è vero Iddio _



Isn't _Iddio_ usually interpreted as an assimilation of_ il Dio_, cf. Tuscan _i ccane_ etc.


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## Riverplatense

... and of course also the articles «substitute» prothetic vowels (_il caso _vs._ lo scrittore_,_ un caso _vs._ uno scrittore_).


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## Dymn

Romanian doesn't seem to have this prothetic e- either.

I also once read Northern Italian dialects used to have this prothetic vowel but dropped it pretty recently due to standard influence.



berndf said:


> In Italian this _e_ has been dropped again at a later stage. We can see that this was a later, independent step because is also affected words with an etymological vowel in front of _sC_, e.g.: _historia > storia, Hispania > Spagna_.


I accept the conclusion but why would this prove anything? Initial vowels before _s+_consonant could have well disappeared on their own while etymological _s_+consonant words would be left the same without the need to make up a back-and-forth evolution.


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## berndf

Dymn said:


> I accept the conclusion but why would this prove anything? Initial vowels before _s+_consonant could have well disappeared on their own while etymological _s_+consonant words would be left the same without the need to make up a back-and-forth evolution.


It is not a _proof_ but a strong indication. If the phenomenon only affected words the had originally no vowel in front of_ -sC_,  it could not have been a second, independent step.


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## bearded

Riverplatense said:


> Isn't _Iddio_ usually interpreted as an assimilation of_ il Dio_, cf. Tuscan _i ccane_ etc.


It's one of the plausible theories.  However, we do not perceive it that way, nor do our prominent authors. Not seldom you read ''l'eccelso Iddio'' or ''il Signore Iddio'', showing that writers or speakers do not feel that there is an article in 'Iddio' ... (not even Tuscans would say _il iccane_).


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## Olaszinhok

Riverplatense said:


> _senz*a* stelle_, _esser*e* scrittore_.



Well, we should recall that in Italian apocope or "troncamento" is quite common: esse*r /*diventa*r* *scr*ittore is certainly possible, therefore four- consonant clusters do exist in Italian. Probably, the following examples are even more common in everyday language: _aver scritto;  esser stati, etc_,  not to mention _abbiam straparlato son sfuggiti_ etc. As everybody knows, Italian is based upon Tuscan and apocope is particularly widespread in Tuscan and Northern Italian.

TRONCAMENTO in "La grammatica italiana"


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## Swatters

Western Walloon still has an unstable prosthetic /ɛ/ before /sC/ clusters, emerging after a consonant:

"È *sc*ole" /ɛ*sk*ɔl/ (è being the contracted preposition + masculine singular definite article in+èl)
"Dins l'*èsc*ole" /dẽl*ɛsk*ɔl/ (preposition dins + article èl + scole)

Both meaning "in the school".

"Il a *st*ran-nè s'pouye" /ila *st*rãnɛ spuj/ (He strangled his chicken)
"I m'*èst*ran-neut" /im*ɛst*rãnø/ (he was chocking me)

"In *sp*inasse" /ẽ *sp*inas/ (a spinach)
"In bia *sp*inasse" /ẽ bja *sp*inas/ (a nice spinach)
"In tchêr *èsp*inasse" /ẽ t͡ʃeːr* ɛsp*inas/ (an expensive spinach)

In Eastern Walloon, the prosthetic vowel has become epenthetic, breaking up the /sC/ cluster:

"È scole" /ɛ*sk*ɔl/ but "Dins l'*sic*ole" /dɛ̃l*sik*ɔl/

"Il a *st*ran-né s'pouye" /ila *st*rãne spuj/
"I m'*sit*ran-nève" /im*sit*rãnɛːv/

"On *sp*inasse" /õ *sp*inas/
"On bè *sp*inasse" /õ bɛ *sp*inas/
"On tchîr *sip*inasse" /õ t͡ʃiːr *sip*inas/

In either variety the support vowel is identical to the schwa: /ɛ/ in the West and /i/ [ɪ] in the East. There are southern dialects where schwa is /y/ [ʏ] and they have an epenthetic /y/ as well: "One sucole" /ɔn sykɔl/ (a school)


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## danielstan

I wrote on this topic in another thread: Initial "e" in escuchar/écouter/escotar <closed for moderation>

I repeat here the ideas from: Al-Rosetti-Istoria-Limbii-Romane-1986.pdf  (pages 126 - 127)

The phenomenon is attested in inscriptions (many of them located in North Africa) since 2nd century AD and it is increasingly attested in 4th century.
See Schuchardt,_ Der Vokalismus des Vulgärlateins_, vol. 2, 
pages 336 and next: Der Vokalismus des Vulgärlateins : Schuchardt, Hugo, 1842-1927 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive on prothesis of _i-_

and pages 365 and next:
Der Vokalismus des Vulgärlateins : Schuchardt, Hugo, 1842-1927 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive  on apharesis of initial _i-_ (like _H*i*spania _-> _Spania_).

Romanian and Italian have the masculine plurals ending in _-i_ and the definite masculine plural articles inherited from Latin _illi_.
_(_while the feminine articles from_ illae_)
So, probably in Vulgar Latin spoken in these areas they used expressions like:
_illae sponsae _
while in Western parts of Roman Empire they probably used:
_illas sponsae _
which became
_illas *i*sponsae_ (> fr. _épouse_, > sp. _esposa_).

Site with Corpus Inscriptionum Latinarum database where one could verify the attestations of Vulgar Latin words with epenthetic _i-_ (e.g. _*I*spartacus_):
Epigraphik Datenbank


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## Sardokan1.0

danielstan said:


> _illas *i*sponsae_ (> fr. _épouse_, > sp. _esposa_).



Perhaps in North Africa they spoke a vulgar Latin similar to that spoken in Sardinia. As suggested by some Latin authors which complained about Sardinians speaking Latin and pronouncing the vowels in the same way of North Africans.

Actual Sardinian : _Sas *i*sposas_

Vulgar Latin from Sardinia (and North Africa?) : _Ipsas *i*sponsas ?_


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## danielstan

Seems plausible, as Sardinian inherited the definite article from lat. _ipsus_, not from lat. _ille_ like other Romance languages.
And also on the matter of plural _isponsa*s*_ I agree is more plausible for Western Romance, while Eastern Romance was with _ispons*ae*_ (I did not pay attention to it in my previous message, as this was not my main concern).


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## bearded

danielstan said:


> lat. _ipsus_


Actually, *ipse* nom., _ipsum _acc. (the article is from accusative anyway).


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## Sardokan1.0

bearded said:


> Actually, *ipse* nom., _ipsum _acc. (the article is from accusative anyway).



The nominative survives in the personal pronouns : *isse, issa, issu*

*isse *= it could be translated as "he or it", it's more often used as pronoun for animals or inanimate objects
*issa *= she
*issu *= he

While the plurals of both "isse" and "issu" converged in "issos" (ipsos, accusative plural of ipse). And the plural of "issa" is obviously "issas" (ipsas accusative plural of ipsa).


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## Olaszinhok

The personal pronouns from_ ipse, ipsa, ipsu_m survive in Italian as well:
*esso
essa
essi 
esse*
ésso in Vocabolario - Treccani


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## Riverplatense

Sardokan1.0 said:


> Perhaps in North Africa they spoke a vulgar Latin similar to that spoken in Sardinia. As suggested by some Latin authors which complained about Sardinians speaking Latin and pronouncing the vowels in the same way of North Africans.
> 
> Actual Sardinian : _Sas *i*sposas_
> 
> Vulgar Latin from Sardinia (and North Africa?) : _Ipsas *i*sponsas ?_



Interestingly, also the Catalan dialect of Mallorca uses articles based on IPSUM:_ es (so), sa; es, ses (sos)_ instead of Catalan _el, la; els, les_.


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## berndf

Please remember that the origin of the Romance article is *not *the topic of this thread. Thank you.


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