# Que él venga  (subjunctive)



## Damocles

Hola a todos!

Este es mi primer post y mi primera peticion en cuanto a gramatica, por lo tanto.

Veamos, tengo una duda acerca del subjuntivo en inglés (sé que apenas lo usan, pero me ocurre muchas veces que quiero usarlo y no dejarlo para mas adelante porque sé que terminaré por olvidarlo).¿Como formariais el subjuntivo de esta frase? 

Que venga él me parece una buena idea.


Lo cierto es que me vendría bien alguna pagina o gramática que conozcais!


Gracias de antemano!


----------



## malakatronis

Buena frase has elegido. Me has planteado alguna que otra duda a mí también 

Sólo se me ocurre esta construcción, y no estoy seguro de que sea correcta: "I think it's a good idea that he came". ¿Qué opináis? ¿Hay alguna otra forma de traducirlo sin modificar mucho la estructura de la oración original?


----------



## Damocles

Claro! Es que es justo lo que me ocurre a mi, que puedo modificar el orden de la oracion y, por lo tanto, usar una frase distinta pero queriendo expresar mas o menos lo mismo, pero me gustaria aplicar el subjuntivo en esa frase, obteniendo la traduccion mas cercana y precisa a la original...


----------



## Ushuaia

Yo diría "his coming here seems like a good idea". Me olvidé toda la terminología sintáctica, pero sé que son estructuras equivalentes...

Saludos.


----------



## neal41

malakatronis said:


> Sólo se me ocurre esta construcción, y no estoy seguro de que sea correcta: "I think it's a good idea that he came". ¿Qué opináis? ¿Hay alguna otra forma de traducirlo sin modificar mucho la estructura de la oración original?


 
'came' es pasado y 'venga' es presente. Tu oración es correcta pero no tiene el mismo significado que la original. Uno puede decir

I think it's a good idea that he come.

'come' es subjuntivo. Sería más común decir "I think it is a good idea for him to come".


----------



## Thomas1

neal41 said:


> 'came' es pasado y 'venga' es presente. Tu oración es correcta pero no tiene el mismo significado que la original. Uno puede decir
> 
> I think it's a good idea that he come.
> 
> 'come' es subjuntivo. Sería más común decir "I think it is a good idea for him to come".


Neal ¿no te parece raro el subjuntivo en la frase inglesa?
Pienso que si tenemos que utilizar una structura parecida a la que se utiliza en el original, comes o is coming serían mas habituales:
_That he's coming is a good idea._
o
_It is a good idea that he's coming._

¿Que opinas?


----------



## neal41

Thomas1 said:


> Neal ¿no te parece raro el subjuntivo en la frase inglesa?
> Pienso que si tenemos que utilizar una structura parecida a la que se utiliza en el original, comes o is coming serían mas habituales:
> _That he's coming is a good idea._
> o
> _It is a good idea that he's coming._
> 
> ¿Que opinas?


 
Tus dos oraciones son gramaticales/aceptables. El significado es que él va a venir *Y* que yo creo que eso es bueno. No hay duda acerca de que viene. En la oración mía el significado es un poco distinto. No se sabe con certeza si viene o no, pero creo que sería buena idea. El hecho de que yo crea que es buena idea tal vez influya algo en si viene o no.


----------



## Milton Sand

Damocles said:


> *¡*Hola a todos!*:*
> 
> Este es mi primer post y mi primera petici*ó*n en cuanto a gram*á*tica, por lo tanto.
> 
> Veamos, tengo una duda acerca del subjuntivo en inglés (sé que apenas lo usan, pero me ocurre muchas veces que quiero usarlo y no dejarlo para m*á*s adelante porque sé que terminaré por olvidarlo). ¿C*ó*mo formar*í*ais el subjuntivo de esta frase?
> 
> Que venga él me parece una buena idea.
> 
> *¡*Lo cierto es que me vendría bien alguna p*á*gina o gramática que conozc*á*is!
> 
> *¡*Gracias de antemano!


 
Hola*:*
En la oración de Damocles, la acción de "venir" no ha tenido lugar al momento de comprender que "es buena idea". "Venir" es una acción relativa: si él viene, es algo bueno. Por eso se pone en subjuntivo. 

En inglés, esta relatividad creo que la manejan con infinitivos de la forma "-ing". Me aventuro a sugerir: 
He coming seems to me a good idea to me.
His coming seems to me a good idea.

¿Estaré en lo cierto?


----------



## malakatronis

Que venga él me parece una buena idea.

Recapitulemos. Por ahora tenemos tres candidatas para traducir al inglés la estructura subjuntiva:

a) I think it's a good idea that he came. Suena raro, ni siquiera sé si es gramatical (¿alguien podría aclarármelo?).

b) His coming seems (like) a good idea to me. Entiendo que aquí cabe el caso en que él ya ha venido ("su _venida _me parece una buena idea"), pero no estoy seguro de si puede también usarse para el caso en que se conjetura sobre ello ("que él venga me parece una buena idea").

c) I think it is a good idea for him to come. Me suena más natural y más exclusivo para nuestro caso, pero creo que lleva implícito que la idea de venir es buena para él. En español vendría decir algo así como "pienso que haría bien en venir" o "pienso que (a él) le vendría bien venir".

Do you have any ideas?


----------



## neal41

malakatronis said:


> Que venga él me parece una buena idea.
> 
> Recapitulemos. Por ahora tenemos tres candidatas para traducir al inglés la estructura subjuntiva:
> 
> a) I think it's a good idea that he came. Suena raro, ni siquiera sé si es gramatical (¿alguien podría aclarármelo?). Está bien. Claramente ya llegó.
> 
> b) His coming seems (like) a good idea to me. Entiendo que aquí cabe el caso en que él ya ha venido ("su _venida _me parece una buena idea"), pero no estoy seguro de si puede también usarse para el caso en que se conjetura sobre ello ("que él venga me parece una buena idea"). Los dos significados son posibles.
> 
> c) I think it is a good idea for him to come. Me suena más natural y más exclusivo para nuestro caso, pero creo que lleva implícito que la idea de venir es buena para él. En español vendría decir algo así como "pienso que haría bien en venir" o "pienso que (a él) le vendría bien venir".
> 
> Do you have any ideas? El beneficio puede ser para él o para otros. No hay manera de saber.


 
La cuarta posibilidad es d) "I think it is a good idea that he come." Todavía no ha llegado todavía.

a) no tiene el mismo significado que la oración original. c) es la forma más común. d) es completamente aceptable y tiene el mismo significado que c). Para mi b) es aceptable pero menos deseable que c) o d).


----------



## neal41

Milton Sand said:


> He coming seems to me a good idea.
> His coming seems to me a good idea.


 
No es posible usar 'he'.


----------



## malakatronis

He optado por volver a estudiar la teoría sobre el subjuntivo en inglés. Aquí hay unas cuantas conclusiones interesantes: http://www.ugr.es/~lquereda/teoria_subjuntivo.htm


a) I think it's a good idea that he came *come*. Subjuntivo en forma base. Sería la traducción directa. Poco natural, pero correcta. Neal41 tiene razón (la oración a la que él llama 'd' es lo que yo pretendía escribir) 

b) His coming seems (like) a good idea to me. Forma ambigua. Engloba dos posibles significados (indicativo y subjuntivo).

c) I think it is a good idea for him to come. Forma más natural. Pero sigo sosteniendo que lleva implícito que la idea de venir es buena para él. Voy a necesitar alguna opinión más para convencerme de lo contrario


----------



## Milton Sand

A los anglos les cuesta entender cuándo y dónde usar subjuntivo; a los hispanohablantes nos cuesta encontra formas de expresar el subjuntivo en inglés.

Por lo que he aprendido de este hilo, creo que la que mejor se ajusta es efectivamente d):
I think it is a good idea that he come.

He sabido que el subjuntivo inglés (con la forma base del verbo) va en desuso. ¿Puedo usar esta versión?:
I think it is a good idea that he come*s*.


----------



## FromPA

malakatronis said:


> He optado por volver a estudiar la teoría sobre el subjuntivo en inglés. Aquí hay unas cuantas conclusiones interesantes: http://www.ugr.es/~lquereda/teoria_subjuntivo.htm
> 
> 
> a) I think it's a good idea that he came *come*. Subjuntivo en forma base. Sería la traducción directa. Poco natural, pero correcta. Neal41 tiene razón (la oración a la que él llama 'd' es lo que yo pretendía escribir)
> 
> b) His coming seems (like) a good idea to me. Forma ambigua. Engloba dos posibles significados (indicativo y subjuntivo).
> 
> c) I think it is a good idea for him to come. Forma más natural. Pero sigo sosteniendo que lleva implícito que la idea de venir es buena para él. Voy a necesitar alguna opinión más para convencerme de lo contrario


 
You are correct. Option A clearly means "Quiero que venga." Options B and C are ambiguous, but most likely would not be interpreted as "quiero que venga" unless an inflection of the voice indicated that the speaker wanted him to come.


----------



## Valkyrie517

malakatronis said:


> c) I think it is a good idea for him to come. Forma más natural. Pero sigo sosteniendo que lleva implícito que la idea de venir es buena para él. Voy a necesitar alguna opinión más para convencerme de lo contrario



No veo yo esa idea implícita. "I think it is a good idea for him to come to the meeting" puede decir que él va a aprender algo por los otros, o que los otros van a aprender algo por él, o muchas otras cosas.


----------



## pgsIbelieve

Me gusta "I think it´s a good idea that he came" (y no con "come"). Me parece lo más acertado porque es subjuntivo. Podría ser o no ser que él venga. En cuanto a la otra frase: "His coming seems like a good idea to me", también me parece correcta y ajustada a la original en español.
Les mando saludos.


----------



## Valkyrie517

pgsIbelieve said:


> Me gusta "I think it´s a good idea that he came" (y no con "come").



Si él vino (came), no es una idea, es un hecho.

I think it's a good idea that he come.

I think it was a good idea for him to come.

I think it was good that he came.


----------



## neal41

Valkyrie517 said:


> No veo yo esa idea implícita. "I think it is a good idea for him to come to the meeting" puede decir que él va a aprender algo por los otros, o que los otros van a aprender algo por él, o muchas otras cosas.


 
Tu ejemplo sirve bien.  Estoy de acuerdo acerca de los dos significados.


----------



## phanmo

no se puede decir "I think it's a good idea that he come"
se dice "I think it's a good idea that he come*s"*


----------



## FromPA

phanmo said:


> no se puede decir "I think it's a good idea that he come"
> se dice "I think it's a good idea that he come*s"*


 
Sorry, but this phrase requires the subjunctive mood.


----------



## sound shift

"I think it would be a good idea for him to come."


----------



## roanheads

Well, as I have previously said in the Forum, the subjunctive is still used frequently in these parts.
I would translate the sentence normally as --
" It seems a good idea that he may come ( or might come )
That would sound perfectly correct to me.
Saludos,


----------



## Scalpel72

Valkyrie517 said:


> Si él vino (came), no es una idea, es un hecho.
> 
> I think it's a good idea that he come.
> 
> I think it was a good idea for him to come.
> 
> I think it was good that he came.




I wonder if this sentence is correct in English.

I think it would be a good idea that he came.
*Pienso (creo) que sería una buena idea  que el viniese(o viniera)*

regards

Scalpel72


----------



## malakatronis

Valkyrie517 said:


> No veo yo esa idea implícita. "I think it is a good idea for him to come to the meeting" puede decir que él va a aprender algo por los otros, o que los otros van a aprender algo por él, o muchas otras cosas.


 
Ahora lo veo más claro. No es que esa idea vaya implícita, sino que la estructura {for him + infinitivo} de por sí es ambigua y puede traducirse de varias formas, según la situación, ¿no? Por ejemplo (subrayo la posibilidad que me parece más normal o más probable):

- I want for him to be happy = "Quiero que sea feliz".
- There's still time for him to start studying= "Aún hay tiempo para que empiece a estudiar", pero también "(Él) aún tiene tiempo de empezar a estudiar".
- It will be difficult for him to be there on time = "Le será difícil llegar allí puntual", pero también "Será difícil que él llegue puntual".

- I think it is a good idea for him to come to the meeting = "Creo que es una buena idea que él venga a la reunión", pero tambíén "Creo que es una buena idea para él venir a la reunión" ~_ "Creo que [le vendría bien / le haría bien / sería inteligente por su parte] venir a la reunión"_

¿Qué pensáis?


----------



## HistofEng

Scalpel72 said:


> I wonder if this sentence is correct in English.
> 
> I think it would be a good idea that he came.
> *Pienso (creo) que sería una buena idea  que el viniese(o viniera)*
> 
> regards
> 
> Scalpel72



Better would be "I think it would be a good idea if he came [to the meeting]"


----------



## neal41

Scalpel72 said:


> I wonder if this sentence is correct in English.
> 
> I think it would be a good idea that he came.
> *Pienso (creo) que sería una buena idea que el viniese(o viniera)*


 
No, no es correcta.  Las 2 siguientes oraciones son correctas:

I think it would be a good idea that he come.
I think it would be a good idea for him to come.


----------



## camner

The subject of how and when to use the subjunctive in English is not simple.  Clearly in American English the subjunctive is slowly dying and the indicative is used instead.  For those of us of a "certain age," that change grates on our ears.

There are some standard places where the subjunctive is required for someone to be considered an educated speaker.  For example, "If I were you...." vs. "If I was you..."  The latter is considered a sign of poor education.  A second example would be in the construction "Let it _____" ("let it go," "let it die", "let it be," etc.)

Many educated Americans would use the subjunctive correctly without having any idea that it is the subjunctive!


----------



## Valkyrie517

roanheads said:


> I would translate the sentence normally as --
> " It seems a good idea that he may come ( or might come )
> That would sound perfectly correct to me.



It does sound perfectly correct, but adding "may" gives a slightly different meaning.

"It seems a good idea that he come" does not give any suggestion that he has even considered coming. He may not even know it's an option.

"It seems a good idea that he may come" does suggest that he has considered it.


----------



## camner

"It seems a good idea that he may come" sounds to me very awkward.  I can't imagine hearing anyone say that!

The implication that the subjunctive can carry in Spanish (that something may or may not occur) I don't think really has a counterpart in English, certainly not through a verb tense, and I can't think of a way of conveying that "signal" through word choice, either, without getting very wordy.


----------



## Holy Moses

Although it's very common to say "I think it would be a good idea if he came", it's incorrect. The future subjunctive requires that you use the "were to" construct. Thus, "*I think it would be a good idea if he were to come*". 
Another example: "If I *were to* tell you, he would not be happy." Again, it's quite common to say "If I *told* you, he would not be happy," but it's incorrect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjunctive_mood

Of course, wikipedia isn't the most reputable site around, but it's generally accurate.


----------



## Valkyrie517

malakatronis said:


> Ahora lo veo más claro. No es que esa idea vaya implícita, sino que la estructura {for him + infinitivo} de por sí es ambigua y puede traducirse de varias formas, según la situación, ¿no? Por ejemplo (subrayo la posibilidad que me parece más normal o más probable):
> 
> - I want for him to be happy = "Quiero que sea feliz".
> - There's still time for him to start studying= "Aún hay tiempo para que empiece a estudiar", pero también "(Él) aún tiene tiempo de empezar a estudiar".
> - It will be difficult for him to be there on time = "Le será difícil llegar allí puntual", pero también "Será difícil que él llegue puntual".
> 
> - I think it is a good idea for him to come to the meeting = "Creo que es una buena idea que él venga a la reunión", pero tambíén "Creo que es una buena idea para él venir a la reunión" ~_ "Creo que [le vendría bien / le haría bien / sería inteligente por su parte] venir a la reunión"_
> 
> ¿Qué pensáis?



Estoy de acuerdo con todo eso, pero creo que el problema para ti fue la frase "good for him".

Fijate en lo siguente, porque aunque las palabras son casi iguales, las frases son diferentes.

"I think (it would be good) (for him to come) to the meeting" = ambigua porque "good" refiere a "it", no a "él"

"I think (coming to the meeting) (would be good for him)"/"I think (if he were to come) to the meeting (it would be good for him)" = bueno para él


----------



## camner

Holy Moses said:


> Although it's very common to say "I think it would be a good idea if he came", it's incorrect. The future subjunctive requires that you use the "were to" construct. Thus, "*I think it would be a good idea if he were to come*".
> Another example: "If I *were to* tell you, he would not be happy." Again, it's quite common to say "If I *told* you, he would not be happy," but it's incorrect.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjunctive_mood
> 
> Of course, wikipedia isn't the most reputable site around, but it's generally accurate.



I agree with Holy Moses that "I think it would be a good idea if he were to come" is grammatically perfect, and perhaps best.  However, I don't think people talk like that very much any more, so if a non-native English speaker wanted to know the most "natural" way of expressing that thought, I think it would be "I think it would be a good idea if he came."


----------



## neal41

Holy Moses said:


> Although it's very common to say "I think it would be a good idea if he came", it's incorrect. The future subjunctive requires that you use the "were to" construct. Thus, "*I think it would be a good idea if he were to come*".
> Another example: "If I *were to* tell you, he would not be happy." Again, it's quite common to say "If I *told* you, he would not be happy," but it's incorrect.


 
If educated speakers of a given language routinely say X, it doesn't make much sense to say that X is incorrect.

In the case of "If I told you, it wouldn't be a secret", it wins 316 to 2 in Google over "If I were to tell you, it wouldn't be a secret".


----------



## Holy Moses

Sure, I agree that you don't have to always be correct in your grammar. (Split infinitive!) I'm just noting that it's actually incorrect to say "if I told you". It's okay in spoken word, but in formal writing it would surely stand out.

And by the way, if you do a google search simply for "if i were to tell you" (leaving out the "it wouldn't be a secret" part) you'll find that "if i were to tell you" gets many more results than "if i told you". Perhaps this is because "if i were to tell you" is more common in written form, but nonetheless, it is common and in my opinion, would be understood by a majority of English speakers.

"if i were to tell you"
http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q="if+i+were+to+tell+you&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

"if i told you"
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=safari&rls=en-us&q="if+i+told+you&aq=f&oq=&aqi=


----------



## neal41

When I do a Google search "if I were to tell you" wins over "if I told you" 168 000 000 to 73 500 000.  I have never been successful in determining what these numbers mean.  I find it hard to believe that "if I were to tell you" occurs in 168 000 000 webpages, but maybe so.  Let's assume the numbers are correct.  If some expression occurs 73 500 000 times, it doesn't seem reasonable to me to categorize it as incorrect.  If it occurs 30% of the time, it seems dubious to me to say that it is incorrect.

'Less common' and 'incorrect' are not synonyms.

I use both forms, and I probably use "if I were to tell you" more often than "if I told you".


----------



## Holy Moses

I never have and never would suggest that "less common" is synonymous with "incorrect". 
Actually, you seem to express that very idea in a previous post, albeit inverted: 
"_If educated speakers of a given language routinely say X, it doesn't make much sense to say that X is incorrect._". 
Read: if speakers commonly say X, X is correct.
That suggests that that which is more common is correct, which I don't think is right.
I was just using the Google search example to show that "if I were to" is actually quite common, which doesn't make it correct. What makes it correct are those bookish grammarians up in their ivory towers who say it's correct


----------



## phanmo

Sorry FromPA and Neal41, but you can't say "he come" unless you're speaking patois.  It is incorrect.


----------



## neal41

phanmo said:


> Sorry FromPA and Neal41, but you can't say "he come" unless you're speaking patois. It is incorrect.


 
You can improve your understanding of English grammar by reading the following link, which was mentioned in message #12:

http://www.ugr.es/~lquereda/teoria_subjuntivo.htm


----------



## camner

phanmo said:


> Sorry FromPA and Neal41, but you can't say "he come" unless you're speaking patois.  It is incorrect.



You can if you are using the subjunctive! 

(And in some instances, you MUST!)


----------



## phanmo

My apologies, I should have said: you can't say "*I think it would be a good idea if he come".  *I was refering specifically to the subject of this thread, not to the usage of "he come" (and the subjunctive) in general.


----------



## camner

phanmo said:


> My apologies, I should have said: you can't say "*I think it would be a good idea if he come".  *I was refering specifically to the subject of this thread, not to the usage of "he come" (and the subjunctive) in general.



Agreed.  Sorry for not understanding the context in which you made your statement.


----------



## Ynez

Holy Moses said:


> Although it's very common to say "I think it would be a good idea if he came", it's incorrect. The future subjunctive requires that you use the "were to" construct. Thus, "*I think it would be a good idea if he were to come*".
> Another example: "If I *were to* tell you, he would not be happy." Again, it's quite common to say "If I *told* you, he would not be happy," but it's incorrect.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjunctive_mood
> 
> Of course, wikipedia isn't the most reputable site around, but it's generally accurate.



I didn't read that page completely, but I saw nothing saying the future subjunctive is the only correct form in any set sentence. I would appreciate it if you could tell me where on that page or any other grammar page you've read that in your sample sentences (_I think it would be a good idea if he came/If I told you, he would not be happy_) the future subjunctive must be used.

On that wikipedia page we can read this:



> Present and past subjunctive
> The terms present subjunctive and past subjunctive can be misunderstood, as they describe forms rather than meanings: the past and present subjunctives are so called because they resemble the past and present indicatives, respectively, but the difference between them is a difference in modality, not a temporal one.
> For example, in "I asked that it be done yesterday," be done (a present subjunctive) has no present-tense sense; and likewise, in "If that were true, I would know it," were (a past subjunctive) has no past-tense sense.


----------

