# Skirts in the workplace



## GenJen54

I’m curious about *work* and *office* dress codes in your countries, particularly *for women*.

What prompted this was a conversation with a current co-worker who was talking about a prior employer who insisted that all of the women in the office wear skirts, even though the company had no official “dress code.” She refused to do so, citing she did not own any skirt and the company could not force her to buy any.

There is another large company in town that has a very stringent dress code. All men have to wear suits and ties. All women must also wear suits; skirt suits, with panty hose and close-toed medium-heeled shoes. Pants suits for women, regardless of how dressy they are, are not allowed. The people who work for this company, however, know what to expect when they are hired there, so it is less of an issue among individual employees.

I wear suits most every day; either pants or skirt suits, depending on what my anticipated daily activities will be. While I do admit that skirt suits may, in some instances, seem dressier, I feel that *requiring* a woman to wear a skirt is sending a subtle sexist message that she does not “wear the pants,” and is, therefore, not equal to her male colleagues. 

Are dress codes that require women to wear skirts in any way “sexist?”

Are these types of dress code issues part of your country/culture’s business practices?


----------



## maxiogee

GenJen54 said:


> Are dress codes that require women to wear skirts in any way “sexist?”


My answer to that depends on what happens under these rules to a man who turns up in a skirt (kilt).

They may not be sexist, but they certainly sound lke there would be problems with religious discrimination. What chance of employment has a woman in a burkha?


----------



## spakh

GenJen54 said:


> Are dress codes that require women to wear skirts in any way “sexist?”
> 
> Are these types of dress code issues part of your country/culture’s business practices?


 

Hi GenJen
For first question I think if the company owners have a special fantasy for skirt wearing women, the answer is yes. 

Then the second one in Turkey a women can wear either pants or skirts if there is no dress code.
And as far as I know some companies would rather have women workers with 'turban'.(that is not the turban men wear in some Muslim countries)


----------



## Chazzwozzer

spakh said:


> And as far as I know some companies would rather have women workers with 'turban'.(that is not the turban men wear in some Muslim countries)


*Ah, what?!

* Are you trying to sound sarcastic or just kidding, sure you can't be unaware of the country you're living. It's very ironic to say something like that when headscarf ban in Turkey is always crictisized.

Which part of Turkey are you living and where did you hear this? Is this just your assumption based on some kind of conservative companies in your city?

If something like that happens, I'm sure those people are smart enough to call the police and have overbearing guys arrested for being against secularism.



GenJen54 said:


> Are dress codes that require women to wear skirts in any way “sexist?”


Women are free to wear either skirts or trousers in Turkey. According to official dress code, women *cannot *wear anything suggesting a religious idea such as headscarf. It's not only for those who are working, but those women who are in that office for whatever reason. They should first put off their religious clothes if they have any.

Far as I know, wearing very "hot" skirts, like superminis, are not accepted. Well, some women do but it's thought to be non-ethic for workplaces.



GenJen54 said:


> Are these types of dress code issues part of your country/culture’s business practices?


I'm not sure if I got this question right but dress code is not a very big thing for workplaces actually. Only rule that is always practised is ban of religious clothes.

Same all goes for schools. In high schools and universities, girls are required to wear tie and trousers(or skirts) like boys. Headscarf is banned for all types of school. That's why daugters of current prime minister, that war headcarf, study in the United States because they are not accepted in Turkish universities.


----------



## Vanest

GenJen54 said:


> Are dress codes that require women to wear skirts in any way “sexist?”
> 
> Are these types of dress code issues part of your country/culture’s business practices?


 
I think that dress codes that require women to wear skirts are VERY sexist. Because, as you say, the 'subliminal' message is that we 'don´t wear the pants'. Furthermore, why should we be obligated to show our legs when men aren´t? 

In my country, Ecuador, many companies, both private and public have uniforms that they obligate their workers to wear. Usually, these are suits that are *skirt* suits for women. If a woman does not want to wear the skirt but prefers pants (like most woman in my generation) they might allow her to have pants made, but at her own expense (I mean, she has to pay for them.) But in other companies, the skirt IS NOT optional. 

In places where a uniform is not obligatory or where there is not a uniform, the dress code will not explicitly say that women have to wear skirts... but, there is always a certain undertone that suggests that it´s better if we wear skirts, for example, if a woman wears a skirt to an interview, she probably has more chances of being hired than if she wears pants. This is all very sexist, of course.


----------



## cherine

Most work places in Egypt don't have dress codes. But some companies do, specially international/multinational ones, Egyptian stock market... The dress code is simply : "wear a suit". For women, a suit can be either a pants or skirt suit. Close-toed shoes are also preferred (if not a must in some companies).
As for men, they can "skip" the suit's jacket, but the tie is a must.


GenJen54 said:


> Are dress codes that require women to wear skirts in any way “sexist?”


I'm not sure about that, I don't think much about such things. But you can call it so if you want  In Egypt, many men consider pants a man's thing  but things are changing gradually. Though, even girls -not all of them of course- feel that skirts are more "girly" than pants.


----------



## geve

GenJen54 said:


> There is another large company in town that has a very stringent dress code. All men have to wear suits and ties. All women must also wear suits; skirt suits, with panty hose and close-toed medium-heeled shoes. Pants suits for women, regardless of how dressy they are, are not allowed. The people who work for this company, however, know what to expect when they are hired there, so it is less of an issue among individual employees.
> [...]
> Are these types of dress code issues part of your country/culture’s business practices?


I find this story rather shocking! 
The dress code is pretty loose in my profession. I will watch more closely my outfit when I have meetings scheduled for the day, but it often happens that I wear jeans at work, and I honestly don't think I've worn a suit since I had to go to job interviews... But I know people who work in finance, a field of activity where dress code is very important; and no one expects a woman to wear a skirt suit every single day... The price she paid for the suit is what really matters.


GenJen54 said:


> Are dress codes that require women to wear skirts in any way “sexist?”


A dress code that sets different rules for men and women is certainly sexist. Why should women be the only ones to be forced to feel the cold on their legs during winter days? Is the fact of showing her ankles a sign of professional competency for a woman?


----------



## ElaineG

My first law firm required women to wear skirt suits until 1999. The day we got the memo permitting pant suits was a day of great celebration.  Interestingly, the word around the firm was that it was the female partners who insisted on retaining the rule as long as they did -- believing that a skirt suit was more traditional, and therefore more professional.

Perhaps as a result of my early training there, but I _never_ wear a pant suit to court, or to my most important client meetings and the like.   When I see a woman in pants in court, it looks out of place to me -- I'm sure I'm one of a dying breed.

 I can assure you that there is nothing sexy about my court suits -- navy, black, gray and brown -- soberly tailored, relatively long and extremely boring.  Often, I think pant suits are actually more form fitting, and therefore more "suggestive".  

 I suppose I should see this as an issue of oppression, and stockings and heels are definitively unpleasant (but I've heard that ties are too), but I have fairly strict images in my mind of what a professional in my line of work looks like.   I find that people don't want their lawyer to look trendy, hip, or cool, and especially as a relatively young woman, I prefer to project traditional boring seriousness than fashion forwardness or even comfort.


----------



## Chaska Ñawi

I haven't heard of one business in Canada with an official dress code, other than for safety issues (hard hats, steel-toed boots, etc.).

I was in court for the first time in 15 years last June, and was a bit stunned to see the duty counsel (P.D. to Americans) attired in cords and a sloppy shirt.  I don't know her reasons for choosing that outfit, and it certainly was at odds with the excellent advice she appeared to be providing (she got one man off what looked like a certain jail term) .... but court is not a casual affair and I didn't find her clothes at all appropriate.  Incidentally, the judge wore a well-tailored pin-striped pant suit under her robes, and the clerk and crown were in skirt suits.

A professional wardrobe is about putting together well-made, well-tailored items, using appropriate fabric ... not about showing our legs.


----------



## clipper

Interesting that a company which tries to tighten up womens' clothing codes is criticised for it when most of the companies I have worked for have had strict, shirt tie and suit rules for men but a much looser set of rules for women.
Indeed in my current office, many women wear "denim trousers" whereas men are strictly forbidden from wearing jeans........

I think that there is a certain reluctance to impose rules on womens' attire due to the "sexism" tag.


----------



## cuchuflete

> There is another large company in town that has a very stringent dress code. All men have to wear suits and ties. All women must also wear suits; skirt suits, with panty hose and close-toed medium-heeled shoes.



Hint:  Does the code specify that each leg of the panty hose be the same color?  

For a lecture at my college, all freshmen (first year students...and yes, it was freshmen, as the school was all male at the time...) were required to attend, and were required to wear "Jacket and tie".  Many showed up wearing a jacket, a tie, and nothing else but boots.  

Is it sexist? Yes.


----------



## Etcetera

In Russia, some companies have strict dress codes. The school I'm working for has its own dress code, too: its employees shouldn't wear jeans, T-shirts and trainers. But in summer, when there are quite a few individual students, the teacher may come in jeans, if they're clean and ironed. 
In fact, I don't think that it's a good idea to make female empoyees wear skirts. Russian winters are too harsh.


----------



## LV4-26

There is no particular dress code where I'm working. The "boss" (directeur du Conservatoire) even comes in jeans sometimes.
Obliging women to wear skirts is sexist and unacceptable.
Obliging men to wear suits and ties is not sexist but is equally unacceptable.(except in some specific cases - when in contact with the public maybe....at a pinch...and even then, I don't see the point, as long as you're tidy. I mean, it's just a convention : who said that a tie was more tidy or smart than anything else?).

Sadly they're among those unacceptable things that you have to accept if you want to keep you job. Don't dream, LV, who's got the power? Grrrrrrrrr...


----------



## Chaska Ñawi

cuchuflete said:


> For a lecture at my college, all freshmen (first year students...and yes, it was freshmen, as the school was all male at the time...) were required to attend, and were required to wear "Jacket and tie".  Many showed up wearing a jacket, a tie, and nothing else but boots.



Reminds me of an occasion on a youth exchange when the founder of the exchange came to visit the camp where we were staying.  The coordinator told the participants at large to dress up for the occasion.  Her error was in specifically mentioning dresses or skirts.

When said high mucky-muck arrived, the boys lined up to greet him... wearing our skirts.


----------



## Bettie

I haven't worked in a place where pants were not allowed. Once I even wore a mini-skirt by mistake, I swear I thought it was another skirt, didn't look myself in the mirror and left, some co-workers teased me but nothing more than that and I was working in a Court House  . But I know for a fact that some companies and public building in Guadalajara don't allowed miniskirts.
What I really found offensive was this guy wearing shorts to go to the Court House, I know it was Cancun, but even then... others used to wear hawaian shirts, I think that is worst than a woman wearing pants.


----------



## papillon

This maybe a bit off-topic, but what about women's outfits in certain professional sports, like tennis and beach velleyball? 

These must be required, for I cannot imagine ALL women playing tennis in these mini mini skirts of their own volition...


----------



## spakh

Chazzwozzer said:


> *Ah, what?!*
> 
> Are you trying to sound sarcastic or just kidding, sure you can't be unaware of the country you're living. It's very ironic to say something like that when headscarf ban in Turkey is always crictisized.
> 
> Which part of Turkey are you living and where did you hear this? Is this just your assumption based on some kind of conservative companies in your city?
> 
> If something like that happens, I'm sure those people are smart enough to call the police and have overbearing guys arrested for being against secularism.


 
I think I am misunderstood. I mean some employers (small enterprizes etc.) PREFER having (as they are free to choose their employees) women workers with headscarf. As you well know they cannot put conditions on wearing headscarfs for their workers. But they may employ headscarfed women if they wish.( they are free)

Of course they won't put a sign reading "We want headscarfed women worker." on their window, if that is what you understand.


----------



## cubaMania

GenJen54 said:


> ... Pants suits for women, regardless of how dressy they are, are not allowed...


 
In USA? are you kidding?
Modern pants suits first came into being in the early 1970s or not much before that.  Around that time a company I worked for in San Francisco tried to institute a dress code that did not permit women to wear pant suits.  The women simply refused to adhere and the company had no choice but to throw out the rule.  I have never again heard of any such rule in any company.  Maybe San Francisco Bay Area is different.


----------



## lsp

> Are dress codes that require women to wear skirts in any way “sexist?”


Yes. A secular company can have a dress code, can require gender-agnostic professional attire of all its employees, may vary the strictness of its guidelines based on certain functional practicalities (safety, visibility to the public, etc.), but should not dictate what female body parts must be unnecessarily exposed.

ElaineG - your post reflects a _personal_ dress code, a _choice_ to wear skirts rather than trousers, no one has imposed that on you or female colleagues as a condition of your performing your duties, right?


----------



## ElaineG

> ElaineG - your post reflects a _personal_ dress code, a _choice_ to wear skirts rather than trousers, no one has imposed that on you or female colleagues as a condition of your performing your duties, right?


 
Well, as I said, my first firm did require skirts until 1999 -- and it was finally done away with not out of a sense of justice, but out of recognition that it caused a significant recruiting problem as far as attracting the top female candidates went.

But now, no, I can't think of a major firm in NY that requires a skirt.  My firm has a fairly detailed dress code -- no denim, no stretch fabrics, no open-toed shoes, no t-shirts etc. etc. -- that is probably fairly gender neutral.  (The advent of business casual has meant that our dress code has gotten more detailed than some statutes -- since everyone has a different view of what "business casual" really is).

My choice about what to wear to court and important meetings is more a reflection of my admittedly old-fashioned viewpoint; although it is perhaps influenced by sexism in that I think a young professional woman still often has project more gravitas and seriousness to be taken as seriously as a similarly-situated man.  For me, this means dressing very traditionally.  For another woman or another profession, it might (wisely) mean refusing to show her legs.


----------



## maxiogee

Does insisting the men working for you must wear at tie, if women are allowed a blouse without this senseless adornment tie in with sexism? Some companies here give women a scarf they must wear.

It is illegal in Ireland to insist on women wearing a skirt as part of their work. All women must have the opportunity to wear trousers. I'm not sure how that would go in a vice-versa situation, but my wife tells me (and she's very au fait with employment laws) that a man must be allowed to wear a skirt if he so desired.


----------



## Alxmrphi

Gen said:
			
		

> I feel that *requiring* a woman to wear a skirt is* sending a subtle sexist message* that she does not “wear the pants,”



How about just being traditional?, I think you jumped from *A* to* C *there.


----------



## Lavinia.dNP

I've been working for several firms in Paris and I noticed that, although there is no specific written dress code, all men are wearing a tie and a suit, and a few of them (especially the younger) sometimes follow the "casual friday" trend, which means coming with jeans on fridays.
For the women it looks very different, it seems like they're allowed to wear anything they want, many of them wear jeans, or casual clothes, long brightly colored skirts with tank tops or flowery summer dresses, I see quite a few of them with the typical pant suit, and nobody with a skirt suit. (but I haven't been working for law firms, and there it might be different)

I consider this is a kind of sexism : why do men have to wear suit and tie, while we women are allowed to wear anything we want?

My opinion is that everybody should wear a suit or equivalent for work.

It's not a matter of traditionalism, it's a matter of common sense : I think that we should wear the appropriate clothes for each occasion : you cannot be dressed in the same way at the office and during weekends, or at a party.

I think it would be appropriate to wear suits for the office, casual clothes for the weekend and elegant clothes if we go out in the evening.

But French women wear the same style of clothes for work, weekend or a party, which also means that most of them won't dress differently if they go to a restaurant or a party than if they go to the supermarket... and I think that it's such an awful lack of style!

What is your idea about this?


----------



## LV4-26

Lavinia.dNP said:


> But French women wear the same style of clothes for work, weekend or a party, which also means that most of them won't dress differently if they go to a restaurant or a party than if they go to the supermarket... and I think that it's such an awful lack of style!


Do they? No kidding? 
What an awful lack of style indeed!


----------



## Lavinia.dNP

LV4-26 said:


> Do they? No kidding?
> What an awful lack of style indeed!


 
Something tells me that someone is making fun of me...


----------



## geve

LV4-26 said:


> Lavinia.dNP said:
> 
> 
> 
> But French women wear the same style of clothes for work, weekend or a party, which also means that most of them won't dress differently if they go to a restaurant or a party than if they go to the supermarket... and I think that it's such an awful lack of style!
> 
> 
> 
> Do they? No kidding?
> What an awful lack of style indeed!
Click to expand...

Je plaide coupable ! I am guilty of a total lack of style!

But then that's probably because I don't work in a law or finance firm, don't attend posh parties or fancy restaurants very often and respect too much my neighbours to show up at the supermarket in dirty clothes... Also, I often head for a restaurant or the supermarket right after work, so I couldn't change if I wanted to.

My sister can't wear skirts or even suits at her job, not to mention close-toed or high-heeled shoes; it would not be appropriate because she often has to go to construction sites. She could have a different outfit for when she's at the office and change whenever she has to go out... It seems we are not blessed with style in my family. The funny thing is that she wears skirts during the week-end, more often than I do! (because _I_ can wear skirts during the week) Now is this the typical esprit de contradiction à la française ? 

My point is: There is not one appropriate outfit for work, I'm afraid. 
Unless you can think of an outfit that would be _appropriate_ for doctors, bakers, shop attendants, accountants, waiters, social workers, bankers, teachers, ...


----------



## cuchuflete

Alex_Murphy said:


> How about just being traditional?, I think you jumped from *A* to* C *there.



Oh, I get it.  An employer has the right to enforce the traditions of the 1950s, on the grounds that this is good for the employer's morale and personal taste in women's appearances.
How about the 1950s tradition of paying women less for the same work?  Does an employer have the right to enforce that tradition as well?


----------



## geve

cuchuflete said:


> How about the 1950s tradition of paying women less for the same work? Does an employer have the right to enforce that tradition as well?


It would only be fair, since women don't need to buy ties. That's one less expense for them.


----------



## papillon

Alex_Murphy said:


> How about just being traditional?, I think you jumped from *A* to* C *there.


No jump. In this case, B = C.


----------



## Lavinia.dNP

LV4-26 said:


> Do they? No kidding?
> What an awful lack of style indeed!


 


geve said:


> Je plaide coupable ! I am guilty of a total lack of style!
> 
> But then that's probably because I don't work in a law or finance firm, don't attend posh parties or fancy restaurants very often and respect too much my neighbours to show up at the supermarket in dirty clothes... Also, I often head for a restaurant or the supermarket right after work, so I couldn't change if I wanted to.
> 
> My sister can't wear skirts or even suits at her job, not to mention close-toed or high-heeled shoes; it would not be appropriate because she often has to go to construction sites. She could have a different outfit for when she's at the office and change whenever she has to go out... It seems we are not blessed with style in my family. The funny thing is that she wears skirts during the week-end, more often than I do! (because _I_ can wear skirts during the week) Now is this the typical esprit de contradiction à la française ?
> 
> My point is: There is not one appropriate outfit for work, I'm afraid.
> Unless you can think of an outfit that would be _appropriate_ for doctors, bakers, shop attendants, accountants, waiters, social workers, bankers, teachers, ...


 
Let's make it clear : Of course if you don't really have the time to get changed, it's normal to go to a party dressed like a penguin (I mean in office clothes)

I too never have the occasion to attend any posh party, and if I go to a restaurant, it's always a cheap one, but we Italians like to wear something nice when we go out at night, even when the event is informal, therefore, if I have a party or a restaurant after the office I take something like a shiny top in my bag which will make my black office pants look more "party-appropriate", and I get changed before I leave the office.

Concerning your last point : I didn't explain myself very well in my other post, but I didn't mean that everybody should wear a suit at work independently from their job : as I said, clothes must always be appropriate to the occasion: every job has its own appropriate clothes, and if I had to switch from the office to a construction site on the same day, I'd probably chose a pant suit with comfortable shoes, in order to be appropriate for both.


----------



## GenJen54

No, but we have to buy panty hose, the cost of which is getting out of control.


----------



## maxiogee

GenJen54 said:


> No, but we have to buy panty hose, the cost of which is getting out of control.


Oh, don't get your knickers in a twist about it!


----------



## geve

Lavinia.dNP said:


> Let's make it clear : Of course if you don't really have the time to get changed, it's normal to go to a party dressed like a penguin (I mean in office clothes)


Oh but I never go to a party dressed like a penguin, because as I said earlier in this thread I don't dress like a penguin to go to work 


Lavinia.dNP said:


> Concerning your last point : I didn't explain myself very well in my other post, but I didn't mean that everybody should wear a suit at work independently from their job : as I said, clothes must always be appropriate to the occasion: every job has its own appropriate clothes, and if I had to switch from the office to a construction site on the same day, I'd probably chose a pant suit with comfortable shoes, in order to be appropriate for both.


But that's the whole point: what makes a suit the "appropriate" outfit? Who says?
My sister cannot wear suits, be they pant suits. The workmen who work with her would find it _inappropriate_, and her clients too. That is simply not what is expected from someone working in her field of activity, just like wearing anything else but a suit would be considered inappropriate in other fields of activity. It's just a convention - conventions can change, but it's not an easy process.


GenJen54 said:


> No, but we have to buy panty hose, the cost of which is getting out of control.


You are right Gen, and let's not forget about make-up too! Women should definitely be paid more than men!


----------



## TrentinaNE

Lavinia.dNP said:


> I think it would be appropriate to wear suits for the office, casual clothes for the weekend and elegant clothes if we go out in the evening.
> 
> But French women wear the same style of clothes for work, weekend or a party, which also means that most of them won't dress differently if they go to a restaurant or a party than if they go to the supermarket... and I think that it's such an awful lack of style!
> 
> What is your idea about this?


Your post reminds me of the three months I spent as an exchange student at a Catholic girls' school in Australia that had an incredibly strict uniform policy (practically down to regulation underwear). I loved it. There was no time wasted deciding what to wear when I got up in the morning -- I knew what I had to wear. And when the girls went out partying on the weekend, they really dressed up because it was such a treat to do so.

Not sure what this has to do with the thread subject except that the uniform included what Americans call a jumper and the Australians refer to as a tunic, and grey stockings.  

Elisabetta


----------



## geve

TrentinaNE said:


> Your post reminds me of the three months I spent as an exchange student at a Catholic girls' school in Australia that had an incredibly strict uniform policy (practically down to regulation underwear). I loved it. There was no time wasted deciding what to wear when I got up in the morning -- I knew what I had to wear.


If I can help you establish the relation to the thread subject , someone I've worked with told me once that the reason he often wore suits - even though there is no strict dress code in his job - is that sometimes a suit is the easiest option. You don't need to figure what sweater or jacket will match your trousers!


----------



## TrentinaNE

geve said:


> If I can help you establish the relation to the thread subject , someone I've worked with told me once that the reason he often wore suits - even though there is no strict dress code in his job - is that sometimes a suit is the easiest option. You don't need to figure what sweater or jacket will match your trousers!


And when the suits are generally variations on dark blue and dark grey, you really can get by with a limited number of them. No one's really going to notice if you wear the same one on Thursday as you did on Monday, as long as the shirt and tie are different.   

I remember when I worked in the corporate world some years back, there was a brief window in the 1980s when white shirts with contrasting collar and cuffs (say a light blue shirt with white collar/cuffs) were trendy for men. It was rumored that the CEO of the Fortune 500 company where I worked wore one of these one day (perhaps purchased by his wife), and that someone paid him a compliment (perhaps the first he'd ever received about his workplace clothing). Reportedly, he never wore the shirt again, as he believed a purpose of the generic business attire for men is to not draw attention to one's appearance.  

Elisabetta


----------



## geve

TrentinaNE said:


> [...] as he believed a purpose of the generic business attire for men is to not draw attention to one's appearance.


This is an interesting and very on-topic comment! Suits are the school uniforms of businessmen. If they're all dressed alike, then no assumption can be made from their looks. So, getting back to women's outfits... if some wear skirt suits and some wear pant suits, it does make a difference. Requiring that a woman wears a skirt suit is a service that the company does to her: this way the company makes sure that she will not be disfavored because of a lack of skin-showing as compared to her female coworkers!

Only... only there are many ways to wear a suit, as there are many ways to wear a school uniforms. Not all suit-wearing businessmen look equal, there are cheap suits and expensive ones, there are silk ties and cotton ones and ties that have ridiculous patterns, then there's the price of the watch you're wearing with the suit, and the briefcase, and the lenght of the jacket, and the length of the legs of the suit wearer... Human beings are reluctant to uniformity I'm afraid!


----------



## lsp

geve said:


> ... and let's not forget about make-up too! Women should definitely be paid more than men!


Make-up is optional, though. Most companies with strict dress codes would have us wearing _less_ of it, if anything - not more!


----------



## Alxmrphi

What about flight attendant's? They pile it on.


----------



## geve

lsp said:


> Make-up is optional, though. Most companies with strict dress codes would have us wearing _less_ of it, if anything - not more!


The most discreet make-up - the one that will blend perfectly with your skin and features - is the most expensive one! 


Alex_Murphy said:


> What about flight attendant's? They pile it on.


Good point. I think I've seen female flight attendants wearing pant suits... That would be one of those professions where conventions can change!


----------



## Alxmrphi

geve said:


> The most discreet make-up - the one that will blend perfectly with your skin and features - is the most expensive one!
> 
> Good point. I think I've seen female flight attendants wearing pant suits... *That would be one of those professions where conventions can change!*



Not the make-up on flight attendants!


----------



## ElaineG

Alex_Murphy said:


> Not the make-up on flight attendants!


 

Well, here in the United States, flight attendants have changed a lot. Flight attendants successfully fought against age and weight restrictions, which were meant to ensure that only nubile young babes were flight attendants, challenging the requirements on age and sex discrimination grounds.

As a result of those victories, and of the continuing crises in the airline industry, which means that not many new flight attendants get hired, most of the flight attendants that you see today on U.S. airlines are middle-aged women who have been in the profession a long time (and of course, a few men). They tend to be very professional (particularly in this era where security is much more on everyone's minds on a plane than sex is!) and the era of "Fly me!" is definitely over.

As a result, their outfits are no longer provocative mini dresses, but are usually sensible blouses, sweaters or jackets, and modest skirts or pants.  Not only is this progress against sexism, but it makes eminent sense -- does any one really want someone having to confront a hijacker who is tottering around in a revealing mini skirt?
I have noticed that this change has not spread all over the world however!


----------



## lsp

ElaineG said:


> ... Not only is this progress against sexism, but it makes eminent sense


Worse I thought, was when they had to walk up and down those little aisles for 8 hours in high heels. I'd like to see a man do that and still be smiling at touchdown!


----------



## maxiogee

ElaineG said:


> Not only is this progress against sexism, but it makes eminent sense -- does any one really want someone having to confront a hijacker who is tottering around in a revealing mini skirt?



_*Do*_ hijackers totter around in revealing mini skirts?


----------



## ElaineG

Ack, bad grammar!  Would that they did.  They'd be much easier to tackle.


----------



## violetangl

I do think that requiring women to wear skirts in the workplace can be construed as sexist. However, here in the states, there are jobs where it is just an accepted fact. If you are a female lawyer with any of the top law firms, the standard dress code consists of a navy skirt suit, nude pantyhose, shiny black pumps, a strand of pearls (with matching earrings), and your hair will preferably be worn in a bun. That's what law students are taught before they even begin applying for jobs.....


----------



## Fernando

I do not think it is sexist, given that the required skirt is far from provocative. Or at least is as sexist as requiring me to wear tie (they are not).

In Spain, dress code for women in business world does not require skirts and only some (old-fashioned) require women to wear skirts. Anyway, you probably see more skirts in business world than in Main Street. 

Business attire is far more free for she than for him. While men are strictly forced to suit+tie (casual Fridays, where used, mean trousers+shirt), women can wear virtually whatever they want.

99% of times *casual attire is more provocative than business attire, with skirt or trousers*. Micro-skirts, navel-showing, nude shoulders and so on are only shown with casual dress.


----------



## nurirgendwo

Where I work, the women are allowed to wear tank tops and open toed shoes while the men must wear pants, dress shoes and at least a short sleeved button up shirt.  In the summertime, the men always complain it's too hot while the women complain that the building is too cold..  Wonder why?

I think most dress codes are a blend of fashion and tradition.  I'd like to compain that the women get to wear more comfortable clothes, but I've accepted that's just the way the business world is.

When I saw the title of this post, I thought it was a man complaining that women were permitted to work at his company... LOL


----------



## Lusitania

GenJen54 said:


> I wear suits most every day; either pants or skirt suits, depending on what my anticipated daily activities will be. While I do admit that skirt suits may, in some instances, seem dressier, I feel that *requiring* a woman to wear a skirt is sending a subtle sexist message that she does not “wear the pants,” and is, therefore, not equal to her male colleagues.
> 
> Are dress codes that require women to wear skirts in any way “sexist?”
> 
> Are these types of dress code issues part of your country/culture’s business practices?


 
When I went to the University in the early 90's the women had to go to exams with a suit, skirt and jacket a sort of like the Feminine section during Fascist times as most of my teachers were in fact from that time (and had played their role along with the system). I refused a dress code and I got some unpleasant remarks from teachers. It was far behond sexist, it was old-fashioned and sad to see old fascist struggling to keep the country as the fiction they had lived before.

On enterprises there are some putting up a dress code but it hasn't to do with wearing a skirt. They want everybody to look the same. Everybody has to wear the colours and style imposed by the company. To avoid less clothes as Fernando Mentioned.


----------



## Gazelle20

I plan on doing an internship in a translation company in both France and Spain.  How do women dress for office work in these countries?  I like to wear pants and pantsuits a lot but I know that in some cultures that that isn't looked on favourably.  Would that be a problem there?  Are there limitations on the colours of the clothes as well?  For example, here in the C'bean people are pretty free to wear whatever colours (bright or sombre), whereas there is a tendency in the States to prefer darker colours (navy, black, etc.).  Also, is there a dress-down Friday?


----------



## ernest_

Gazelle20 said:


> I plan on doing an internship in a translation company in both France and Spain. How do women dress for office work in these countries?  I like to wear pants and pantsuits a lot but I know that in some cultures that that isn't looked on favourably.  Would that be a problem there?  Are there limitations on the colours of the clothes as well?  For example, here in the C'bean people are pretty free to wear whatever colours (bright or sombre), whereas there is a tendency in the States to prefer darker colours (navy, black, etc.).  Also, is there a dress-down Friday?



Well, every company is a whole different world, I suppose. Where I work, there's no dress code at all. The women I work with wear all sorts of clothes in all sorts of colours, and some of them have a style than would qualify as... hum, very informal. I don't see many men wearing suits either but.


----------



## roseruf

First, sorry about my English.


  I agree with ernest_. It depends both on your company and in your position. In my point of view, in little companies the most usual is that there are no rules. You can wear as you want. May be in big companies there are non-wrote rules for certain positions and some discretion are needed, but there is no problem with pants.
  Lo más fácil es que te guíes por la máxima: ¡_allí donde fueres haz lo que vieres_! Pero no vas a tener ningún problema.

  Any kind of correction is welcomed.


----------

