# Plurals of nisba adjectives in Hebrew



## kopo

I have a question about the spelling and pronunciation of "nisba" adjectives and nouns (-i) in Hebrew.

In Arabic, things are pretty clear. If you have a nisba adjective/noun like _miSriy_ مِصْرِيّ (Egyptian), it has a shadda (gemination marker) over the yud. This means that when you put the word in the plural form (in the genitive case), you get _miSriyyina_  مِصْرِيِّيْنَ.

This works whether you're talking about _Egyptian_ as a noun (Egyptians), or as an adjective (Egyptian men).

In Hebrew, this seems a little less clear.

Take, for example, the noun for "an Israeli," _Yisra'eliy_: יִשְׂרְאֵלִי
You would expect the plural of this to be _Yisra'eliyim_ יִשְׂרְאֵלִיִּם

However, it is in fact _Yisra'elim_; there is no _dagesh_ in the _yud_, and when spelled in _ktiv male'_, only one _yud_ is often used at the end.
This seems strange to me -- omitting the extra _yi_ syllable makes the plural of ישראלי the same as the plural of ישראל.

Interestingly enough, when ישראלי is used as an _adjective_, you _do_ usually see the extra _yud_. For example: _shirim yisra'eliyim_ שירים ישראליים (Israeli songs).

Can anyone shed some light on the distinction between nisba nouns and nisba adjectives in Hebrew? There are plenty of examples of plural nisba nouns in the Bible (ending in _im_ rather than _iyyim_), but I haven't yet found nisba _adjectives_, so I can't tell how the distinction has evolved, if at all.


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## Nunty

I'm sorry for being stupid, but what is a "nisba" noun or adjective?


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## ahshav

A nisba, in Arabic, is a specifier, in the form of a suffix - meaning "one of X", or "one like X."


בעברית הכוונה היא להראות סוג של שייכות. המקרה הנפוץ ביותר הוא זה של לאומים - ישראלי, ערבי וכו' - ה"י" הסופית היא זאת ההופכת את המילה ל"ניסבה". השאלה היא שאלה טובה - בערבית אין בלבול, אך בעברית נוטים לומר "ישראלי" אחד ו"ישראלים" רבים - האם זה נכון? האם אין לומר "ישראליים" רבים, או לכל הפחות  לשים דגש חזק באות י?

אגב, דוגמא נוספת ל"ניסבה" בעברית היא בשמות תואר. לדוגמא: כמו או דומה לנוזל - נוזלי - וברבים נוזליים או נוזלים?​
It was a bit easier for me to explain the question in Hebrew, but if anyone has an answer, I think more would benefit if the discussion continued in English.

http://www.adath-shalom.ca/history_of_hebrew.htm#Nisbe


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## Nunty

וואו - תודה רבה עכשיו. הסבר מצוין!​


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## ahshav

על לא דבר!

יש לך מושג מה התשובה - האם יש לומר ישראלים, ישראליים, או ישראליּם?

עד כמה שאני יודע, כשמדובר בדוממים, מכפילים את ה"י" -  לדוג' נוזליים או חיוביים, אבל כשמדובר באנשים יש נטייה שלא להכפיל - ישראלים, חרדים, חילונים וכו' - זאת טעות או שיש סיבה טובה לכך?​


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## Nunty

סתם ככה אני לא יכולה להוסיף אלא שאני נוטה לחשוב כמוך. אני במשרד כרגע, כשאגיע הביתה אבדוק.​


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## origumi

kopo said:


> There are plenty of examples of plural nisba nouns in the Bible (ending in _im_ rather than _iyyim_), but I haven't yet found nisba _adjectives_, so I can't tell how the distinction has evolved, if at all.


 
1 Kings 11:17

וַיִּבְרַח אֲדַד הוּא וַאֲנָשִׁים *אֲדֹמִיִּים *מֵעַבְדֵי אָבִיו אִתּוֹ לָבוֹא מִצְרָיִם וַהֲדַד נַעַר קָטָן

Adomiyyim (= Edomites)


The question of _im_ vs. _iyyim_ is old. Printed bibles suggest two alternatives in some cases, for example 2 Chronicles 26:7

וַיַּעְזְרֵהוּ הָאֱלֹהִים עַל־פְּלִשְׁתִּים וְעַל־*הָעַרְבִיִּים (הָעַרְבִים)* הַיֹּשְׁבִים בְּגוּר־בָּעַל וְהַמְּעוּנִים

'Arviyyim / 'Arvim (= Arabs)


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## Nunty

לפי אבן-שושן "המרוכז" :
ישראלי, ישראלית, *יִשְרְאֵלִיִּים*, ישראליות​


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## scriptum

nun-translator said:


> לפי אבן-שושן "המרוכז" :
> ישראלי, ישראלית, *יִשְרְאֵלִיִּים*, ישראליות​



According to _my _Even-Shoshan, יִשְרְאֵלִיִּים is an adjective, ישראלים a substantive. 
איש איש והאבן-שושן שלו...
ג​


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## kopo

Thanks for all the responses!
It looks like scriptum has found a definitive statement of the distinction. Now if we only knew how the difference is explained...


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## Nunty

I guess I still don't understand what a "nisba noun or adjective" is. It's not an adjective?


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## kopo

In Hebrew, a nisba noun or adjective is formed by taking some stem and adding ִי (masculine) or ִית to the end.

For example:
מקור (source, origin) --> מקורי (original)
ספרד (Spain) --> ספרדי (Spaniard [n] or Spanish [adj])
משפחה (family) --> משפחתי (familial)

The term nisba (نسبة) comes from Arabic, and means _relation_. Hebrew and Arabic form these derived adjectives and nouns almost identically -- except apparently Hebrew treats masculine plurals for nouns and adjectives slightly differently.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_grammar#Nisba


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## ahshav

יִשְרְאֵלִיִּים??​Can someone explain why the yud is doubled AND there is a dagesh in the yud?


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## kopo

ahshav said:


> יִשְרְאֵלִיִּים??​Can someone explain why the yud is doubled AND there is a dagesh in the yud?



If it's like Arabic, then the second yud is originally a long vowel ī (ignored in Israeli Hebrew): yisra'eliyyīm.

If they follow a short vowel, then alef, waw, and yud are actually long vowels. If they follow a schwa (ְ) or come at the beginning of a word, then they act as consonants.


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## ahshav

except in arabic that yud has a "dagesh" (shadda) in the singular form of the word, as well, and that is kept when pluralizing it.

does the word ישראלי have a dagesh in the final yud?


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## origumi

ahshav said:


> יִשְרְאֵלִיִּים??​
> 
> Can someone explain why the yud is doubled AND there is a dagesh in the yud?


 
I think that the dagesh is because the yod serves as both consonant and vowel. Compare to the word אנייה (= ship), for example 1 Kings 22:49 *אֳנִיּוֹת* תַּרְשִׁישׁ לָלֶכֶת אֹפִירָה.

The double yod is because there are two khirik sounds.

Modern Hebrew makes both yods sound alike and therefore most Israelis wouldn't notice the dagesh. However, old-timer Jerusalemites still prononuce their city name "Yerushala*yy*im" with strong stress on the yy that makes its sound like spanish ll (as in Sevilla).


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## kopo

ahshav said:


> does the word ישראלי have a dagesh in the final yud?



Nope, but historically, it probably did.


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## origumi

kopo said:


> Nope, but historically, it probably did.


 
Dagesh comes for reason. No reason in ישראלי.


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## kopo

origumi said:


> Dagesh comes for reason. No reason in ישראלי.


Historically, Hebrew, like Arabic and other Semitic languages, is assumed to have had case endings.

In that situation, the indefinite, nominative, singular form of _yisraeli_ would have been _yisraeliyyum_. There would be another syllable after the final yud, so a doubled consontal yud sound (indicated by a dagesh) would not be unexpected.

Similarly, in Arabic, if you're pronouncing something without case endings, you would say _miSriy_. But if you're using the formal case markers and nunnation, you would say _miSriyyun_.


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## origumi

Is there a source or example to demonstrate this concept in the Hebrew language? Or are you referring to a hypothetical proto-Semitic constrcut lost long before the Hebrew / Aramaic language branch evolved?


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## kopo

origumi said:


> Is there a source or example to demonstrate this concept in the Hebrew language? Or are you referring to a hypothetical proto-Semitic constrcut lost long before the Hebrew / Aramaic language branch evolved?



Personally, I have no idea. 

This article seems to have a good grasp of the language's history, and provides further sources: www dot adath-shalom.ca/history_of_hebrew3.htm
Don't know how trustworthy they are.


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## scriptum

kopo said:


> Now if we only knew how the difference is explained...


The difference between an adjective and a substantive? I am not sure I understand your question.
Syntactically, a substantive is defined by an adjective; which means that a substantive can appear without an adjective, but not vice-versa.
Example:
הישראלים מעדיפים בנות
(substantive)
פיקוח על בנקים ישראליים
(adjective)


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## kopo

scriptum said:


> The difference between an adjective and a substantive? I am not sure I understand your question.
> Syntactically, a substantive is defined by an adjective; which means that a substantive can appear without an adjective, but not vice-versa.
> Example:
> הישראלים מעדיפים בנות
> (substantive)
> פיקוח על בנקים ישראליים
> (adjective)



I understand the observed difference between substantives and adjectives. What I'm trying to understand is what _allows_ the yud of the singular to be dropped (or coalesced with the yud of the plural ים ending).


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## ahshav

kopo said:


> What I'm trying to understand is what _allows_ the yud of the singular to be dropped (or coalesced with the yud of the plural ים ending).



Exactly, me too - otherwise the word ישראלים (as in Israelis), is identical in every way to the plural form of the word (i.e. Israels). No?

(Though the plural form of "Israel" here might be wrong in this particular case, seeing as ישראל is actually a feminine noun most of the time today - when not referring to a person whose name is "ישראל" - but that's an entirely different discussion).


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## Ali Smith

While it is true that words like _yisre'eli_ have two plurals depending on whether the word is a noun or an adjective, some words have only one plural. For example, _amerika'i_ has just one plural, namely _amerka'im_. Maybe it's because the stress stays on the syllable _ka_?


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## mj99

I think the reason why _amerika'i_ has just one plural regardless of whether it's a noun or an adjective is because it's a foreign word. By contrast, _yisre'eli_ is not and therefore has two different plurals.


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