# Hoc vates iacet hoc - does this make sense?



## edwardtheconfessor

*HOC VATES IACET HOC
*
(I use caps here as I understand from another poster on one of my other threads that lower case was not used in Roman times ?).
Question: does this make sense?
It is intended for a memorial stone commemorating my mother (now deceased, of course).  The intended meaning is (something like):-

'*This soothsayer (or sibyl or female sage) lies herein*.'

Her ashes will indeed be interred within the memorial stone.
Engraved above this Latin phrase is to be a favourite saw or wise saying of hers (not in Latin):

'_Life is like a pair of trousers; it's all ups and downs._'
This was indeed her favourite saying (for 'trousers' read 'pants' if you prefer American English).
Under that, of course, her name and dates, then the Latin inscription.

Don't want to use common old (cliched) 'HIC JACET' - for what I suppose are reasons obvious here and the hackneyed 'R.I.P.' is obviously out (for the same reason)!

Anyone care to advise me here?  
Thanks  - edwardtheconfessor


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## Agró

VATES is either masculine (HIC VATES) or feminine (HAEC VATES), not neuter (so HOC is out of the question).
"Don't want to use common old (cliched) 'HIC JACET' - for what I suppose are reasons obvious here"  (I don't get this, sorry).

_*HIC IACET **HAEC VATES*._

Wait for more/better replies, though.


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## edwardtheconfessor

Thank you for correting my grammar, Agro'.
I'm not a Latin scholar - and I must admit that sounds better.  '_Hic jacet_' is a cliche'. It appears on so many gravestones and memorial stones, and is not really sayinng anything of importance in my view. I believe it means nothing more than '_here lies_ ...'. True? Well, so what (I would feel tempted to say!).

I'll wait for further advice here yes, thank you.  Before it gets engraved on a block of granite it has to be right. It can't be changed after that!

- edwardtheconfessor


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## Joca

Intus iacet/cubat haec auspex.


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## Peano

*HIC SEPVLTA EST VATES*
Here was buried the soothsayer.


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## edwardtheconfessor

Great Penao - we're on the right track here! And thank you also Joca.  
*HIC SEPVLTA EST VATES

*Hmmm! It has a certian 'ring' to it! Good! Better though, perhaps to put :

_Here *is* buried the soothsayer  _
OR
_Here *lies* buried the soothsayer

_(for me, her spirit is very  much still with us)

- or does the Latin '_est_' in fact here mean 'is', present tense  (as, for example, the same word does in French)?

..Just so long as it does not contain the words _HIC JACE__T_: I've got a real aversion to those words (as I've explained above).
As I am a total Latin ignoramus (!) perhaps you could translate that for me, if that is needed:

_(HERE IS BURIED  ...   or   HERE LIES BURIED ...)  ??   _or do we have that (above) already?

I think I like the word _vates _for 'soothsayer'. I'm not sure what _auspex_ means?  _Intus_ for 'within' is an interesting idea (if it does mean here 'within'?) as I quite like the double meaning - within her stone (in fact, her ashes inside an oak casket under the 'lid' of the stone) .. but also 'within' the meaning of her favourite saying (given above). This has itself, also, a kind of double meaning, or at least a witty irony, as it is about the nature of mortal life (which she has now departed). Socrates and his Latin versed scholars, as well as my mother herself I'm sure, would have much approved!

Keep it coming. Thanks all
- edwardtheconfessor


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## Joca

I think you could make it even simpler: HIC SEPVLTA VATES/AUSPEX.

http://www.latin-dictionary.org/auspex

Or, perhaps you could use the passive form:

HIC SEPELITUR HAEC VATES/AUSPEX. Here's buried this soothsayer. 

A question: Doesn't the memorial stone mention her name?


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## edwardtheconfessor

Yes, this is getting interesting Joca. Economy of words is good.  How about:

*INTVS SEPVLTA VATES

*Does that work? If it is valid Latin (grammatically) then maybe this will do it!  It would then retain the '_intus_' which I very much like, as I have explained above (double meaning and 'irony' of 'within' ??).

The stone, yet to be ordered, dressed finished and engraved by a professional, will read:-

_'Life is like a pair of trousers; it's all ups and downs'
__- _Kathleen Joan Bird (1924-2009)
INTVS SEPVLTA VATES

- assuming we now have a correct Latin inscription?

Just one other question (again, I show my ignorance here):
Authentic Roman Latin uses 'V' instead of letter 'U'. Fair enough.  But the letter 'V' as in '_vates_' here is also authentic. Yes?

Many thanks   - edwardtheconfessor


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## Joca

INTVS SEPVLTA VATES sounds ok to me.

In Classical Latin, as far as I know, V sounds like English u (= oo).

But since I am not a Latinist, you better wait for a more enlightened explanation.


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## Agró

Joca said:


> The problem here - INTVS SEPVLT*A* VATES - is that we don't know the gender of the buried one.



We do know her gender (SEPVLT*A*).


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## Joca

Oh, yes, we do know it. I made a mistake and I was editing my post probably at the same time you were posting yours.


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## Peano

edwardtheconfessor said:


> Better though, perhaps to put :
> _Here *is* buried the soothsayer _... or does the Latin '_est_' in fact here mean 'is', present tense (as, for example, the same word does in French)?



Well, as I learnt from the handbook _An introduction to Vulgar Latin _(Grandgent), the perfect passive (_amatus est_) came to replace the present passive (_amatur_) in vulgar/popular Latin, adopting its meaning: 
"Under the influence of _carus est_, etc., _amatus est_ came to mean 'he _is_ loved', etc. Hence _amatus fuit_ signified 'he _was_ loved'."

Anyway, since we are probably dealing with an inscription in strict classical Latin (writing V for U), *INTVS SEPVLTA VATES* may be fine. I think INTVS is great since _INterrare_ and _INhumare_ are actually formed with IN.


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