# John doesn't abide by the rules (passive)



## adonis1956

I wonder if there is a passive form of this phrase:

*John doesn't abide by the rules*
My take on this even if I know it's totally wrong

*The rules are not abided by John* (It's weird)

I suspect there isn't a passive form but I would like to know why.

Thanks in advance

PS:
I can think of something even weirder since abide by is a phrasal verb and therefore an indivisible unit.

*The rules are not abided by by John*


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## Bevj

adonis1956 said:


> *The rules are not abided by by John*


In my opinion this is a correct sentence.
However, the repetition of 'by' makes it sound rather clumsy.


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## Cholo234

adonis1956 said:


> I wonder if there is a passive form of this phrase


In the future, you can just check (if it's convenient) in the dictionary to see if a verb is transitive or not.  (Transitive verbs take direct objects and are both active and passive.)  (An intransitive verb can't be passive.)
a·bide​  (ə-bīd′)
_v._ *a·bode* (ə-bōd′) or *a·bid·ed*, *a·bid·ing*, *a·bides*
_v.tr._
*1. *To put up with; tolerate: can't abide such incompetence. See Synonyms at endure.
*2. *To wait patiently for: "I will abide the coming of my lord" (Tennyson).


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## adonis1956

According to what you indicate in your answer, the verb should admit the passive form but let me tell you that in my case the verb is not "abide" but the phrasal verb "abide by" which is also reported as transitive by Wordreference but to me that sentence I wrote with two consecutive "by" particles does not seem right at all and I would like a native English speaker to explain to me if it is correct or not.


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## pollohispanizado

adonis1956 said:


> that sentence I wrote with two consecutive "by" particles does not seem right at all and I would like a native English speaker to explain to me if it is correct or not.


As Bevj said, it is correct (abide by is a phrasal verb; by [John] marks the agent of the sentence). Spanish also has constructions like this, but in both languages they tend to be avoided due to the cacophony of repeating a preposition.


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## adonis1956

Cholo234
I've just realized that Abide is reported as intransitive by Wordreference. What dictionary did you show to me?


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## pollohispanizado

adonis1956 said:


> Cholo234
> I've just realized that Abide is reported as intransitive by Wordreference. What dictionary did you show to me?


Even though the meaning of the phrasal verb _abide by_ is different than the regular verb _abide_, _abide by_ is a transitive construction since it needs a direct object (you can't say "John abides by"; he needs to abide by _something_--in this case, the rules).


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## adonis1956

pollohispanizado said:


> As Bevj said, it is correct (abide by is a phrasal verb; by [John] marks the agent of the sentence). Spanish also has constructions like this, but in both languages they tend to be avoided due to the cacophony of repeating a preposition.


At abided I got this definition:
"2. (tr) *to accept* or submit to; suffer: to abide the court's decision."

If this is so then the verb "abide by" would be a prepositional verb since "by" would serve as the preposition that links the verb and the DO and thus my first attempt
"The rules are not abided by John" would seem more accurate.

I am not an expert in English grammar but I am definitely confused.


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## pollohispanizado

If only English had a _Diccionario de dudas_... 

I have no answers. I have only ever heard _abide by_. In fact, I sort of saw_ abide by the rules/laws_ as a set phrase.


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## Bevj

I hesitate to add more too, since I'm no grammar expert.
But _to abide_ and _to abide by_ have different meanings.
1)  John doesn't abide the rules -  John hates the rules.  No aguanta las reglas.
2)  John doesn't abide by the rules - John does not obey the rules.  No cumple con las reglas.

In the passive voice:

1)  The rules are not abided by John  Correct but I doubt if anyone would actually say this,
2)  The rules are not abided by by John.  Correct but ugly.

Your original example was *sentence 2)*.


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## Cholo234

adonis1956 said:


> Cholo234
> I've just realized that Abide is reported as intransitive by Wordreference. What dictionary did you show to me?



. . . the "dictionary" at thefreedicionary.com



adonis1956 said:


> According to what you indicate in your answer, the verb should admit the passive form but let me tell you that in my case the verb is not "abide" but the phrasal verb "abide by" which is also reported as transitive by Wordreference



I think I understand what you're saying (that the verb is the phrasal verb "abide by").



adonis1956 said:


> I suspect there isn't a passive form but I would like to know why.



Feel free to let me know the apparent reason for your question.  Would you accept using "The rules are not followed by John"?



adonis1956 said:


> "The rules are not abided by John" would seem more accurate.



. . . . more natural -- if the passive is required.

I think _abide by_ shows something that can "go beyond" mere tolerating something:  "All members must agree to abide by the club regulations" (the members not only agree to tolerate the rules -- they agree to follow them!)


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## adonis1956

Cholo234 said:


> . . . the "dictionary" at thefreedicionary.com
> 
> 
> 
> I think I understand what you're saying (that the verb is the phrasal verb "abide by").
> 
> 
> 
> Feel free to let me know the apparent reason for your question.  Would you accept using "The rules are not followed by John"?
> 
> 
> 
> . . . . more natural -- if the passive is required.
> 
> I think _abide by_ shows something that can "go beyond" mere tolerating something:  "All members must agree to abide by the club regulations" (the members not only agree to tolerate the rules -- they agree to follow them!)


The reason for my question is that I am working on a personal project that has to do with phrasal verbs and I came across a paper entitled "A Software Application for Managing English Phrasal Verbs" ((PDF) SMART_PV: A SOFTWARE APPLICATION FOR MANAGING ENGLISH PHRASAL VERBS)
In the paper it is said that the verb "abide by" does not admit passive form and I am trying to refute that statement because I feel that it indeed has passive form


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## adonis1956

Cholo234 said:


> . . . the "dictionary" at thefreedicionary.com
> 
> 
> 
> I think I understand what you're saying (that the verb is the phrasal verb "abide by").
> 
> 
> 
> Feel free to let me know the apparent reason for your question.  Would you accept using "The rules are not followed by John"?
> 
> 
> 
> . . . . more natural -- if the passive is required.
> 
> I think _abide by_ shows something that can "go beyond" mere tolerating something:  "All members must agree to abide by the club regulations" (the members not only agree to tolerate the rules -- they agree to follow them!)


As further clarification, I was trying to understand whether Abide by is a verb with an adverbial or prepositional particle.

Many dictionaries do not distinguish between these two modalities and call them all phrasal verbs. Wordreference does indeed, although in its own way, make the distinction.

When it is a verb with an adverbial particle it is called phrasal verb and when the verb is prepositional it is indicated as "verb + prep".
In the case of Abide by, it is tagged as phrasal which for me is a mistake because the particle "by" in this context is clearly a preposition and not an adverb.
In fact I can't say "I abide the law by" which is usually allowed with phrasal verbs. Prepositional verbs are, with a few exceptions, inseparable


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## Cholo234

adonis1956 said:


> In the case of Abide by, it is tagged as phrasal which for me is a mistake because the particle "by" in this context is clearly a preposition and not an adverb.


Fowler* says _abide by _'to stand firm by' can be a phrasal verb.

As an aside, there are 33 results for "is abided by" in Google, and Keith Bradford says that_ If this rule takes effect immediately and is abided by by all parties _is correct_. Abided by by?_



adonis1956 said:


> In the case of Abide by, it is tagged as phrasal which for me is a mistake because the particle "by" in this context is clearly a preposition and not an adverb.


The Oxford Dictionary of English Grammar says a particle is a term "covering any adverb or preposition." It also says a phrasal verb consists of a verb and one or more particles [which can be adverbs or prepositions]. I'm not sure the Word Reference reference is "a mistake."

*in The New Fowler's Modern English Usage


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## Raposu

A sentence can be grammatically correct but still not be something that would be used by a native speaker.  I think *The rules are not abided by by John* is one such sentence. While it is perfectly understandable, it seems awkward and non-native to me regardless of the grammatical labels used to describe it.


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## adonis1956

Cholo234 said:


> Fowler* says _abide by _'to stand firm by' can be a phrasal verb.
> 
> As an aside, there are 33 results for "is abided by" in Google, and Keith Bradford says that_ If this rule takes effect immediately and is abided by by all parties _is correct_. Abided by by?_
> 
> *in The New Fowler's Modern English Usage


Hm! So I was right after all 😎
But the verb is definitely prepositional


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## adonis1956

Raposu said:


> A sentence can be grammatically correct but still not be something that would be used by a native speaker.  I think *The rules are not abided by by John* is one such sentence. While it is perfectly understandable, it seems awkward and non-native to me regardless of the grammatical labels used to describe it.


Yes, you are right, my point is mostly theoretical but as cholo234 pointed out, there are a few collocations out there of that phrase in passive form.


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## Reina de la Aldea

Cholo234 said:


> Feel free to let me know the apparent reason for your question.


All should abide by the forum rules
The forum rules should be abided by by all


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## adonis1956

Reina de la Aldea said:


> All should abide by the forum rules
> The forum rules should be abided by by all


YEAH!


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## Cholo234

adonis1956 said:


> I can think of something even weirder since abide by is a phrasal verb and therefore an indivisible unit.


No, they point out at the link below how phrasal verbs often are separated.  "Phrasal verbs are also often separated by nouns and pronouns."  "I'll sort out the accommodation/I'll sort the accommodation out."

They can be inseparable:  "I'd jump at the chance to study abroad," but not "I'd jump the chance at to study abroad."  

Prepositional Verbs - Wall Street English


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## adonis1956

Cholo234 said:


> No, they point out at the link below how phrasal verbs often are separated.  "Phrasal verbs are also often separated by nouns and pronouns."  "I'll sort out the accommodation/I'll sort the accommodation out."
> 
> They can be inseparable:  "I'd jump at the chance to study abroad," but not "I'd jump the chance at to study abroad."
> 
> Prepositional Verbs - Wall Street English


I would like to clarify my point again as I think you have not fully grasped it.
Of course "jump at" is inseparable because it is a "prepositional verb", i.e. a verb plus a preposition and it is mandatory that after the verb comes a prepositional object.
Prepositional verbs are always transitive and inseparable. The preposition, except in a few cases (for example ago), must always come before the noun (by the way, I do not know of any prepositional verb that contains the preposition Ago).


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## Cholo234

adonis1956 said:


> Of course "jump at" is inseparable because it is a "prepositional verb", i.e. a verb plus a preposition and it is mandatory that after the verb comes a prepositional object.


I was relying on The Oxford Phrasal Verbs Dictionary (online) for "I'd jump at the chance to study abroad" (under S18-19 Transitive and Intransitive Verbs).


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## Cholo234

adonis1956 said:


> it is mandatory that after the verb comes a prepositional object.


And the same is true of an "inseparable phrasal verb":

rely on someone/somebody/something  (_You can rely on me_.)
call for something  (_You can call for me at 8._)

N.B. "Authorities" can disagree:  The Oxford Phrasal Verbs define both _agree on_ and _depend on_ (only two examples) as phrasal verbs.  Wallstreetenglish.com defines them as prepositional verbs.


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## OtroLencho

Raposu said:


> A sentence can be grammatically correct but still not be something that would be used by a native speaker.  I think *The rules are not abided by by John* is one such sentence. While it is perfectly understandable, it seems awkward and non-native to me regardless of the grammatical labels used to describe it.


I agree with all of your points; personally I'd work around the awkwardness with something like "The rules are not [followed/respected/complied with] by John."

(Though I'd more likely just use active voice-- I've spent waaay too much time reading scientific publications where nobody seems to take responsability for their actions and everything's written in passive voice.)


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## gengo

pollohispanizado said:


> I have only ever heard _abide by_.



I'm sure you have seen "abide" used without that preposition.  (I say that because you are obviously well read.)  It means to tolerate or permit.  To abide by is a typical phrasal verb in that the meaning of the base verb is changed by the preposition.

He does not abide by rules = He doesn't obey/follow rules
He does not abide rules = He does not tolerate rules or allow any rules to be set up


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## pollohispanizado

gengo said:


> I'm sure you have seen "abide" used without that preposition. (I say that because you are obviously well read.)


I don't think so. And if I have, it's possible that I thought it was a mistake. Is it still commonly used in Britain or something?

(I read a lot; but, honestly, I haven't read a book in English in many years. I generally read for pleasure in Spanish or French. It probably wouldn't hurt to throw an English-language novel into the mix once in a while... )


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## OtroLencho

pollohispanizado said:


> I don't think so. And if I have, it's possible that I thought it was a mistake. Is it still commonly used in Britain or something?



Common in my (U.S.) experience.  I can't abide (stand, tolerate) overcooked liver.

Edit: Upon further thought, maybe not so _common_, but perfectly understood.


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## gengo

pollohispanizado said:


> I don't think so. And if I have, it's possible that I thought it was a mistake. Is it still commonly used in Britain or something?



I can't speak for Britain or Canada, but it's certainly in use in the US.  Naturally, it has a fairly high register, but I hear it in regular conversation from time to time.

Example from news:
'He won't abide such treatment': Gen. Kelly said 'nobody has spoken to him' like Trump in his 35-year career


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## pollohispanizado

OtroLencho said:


> Common in my (U.S.) experience.  I can't abide (stand, tolerate) overcooked liver.
> 
> Edit: Upon further thought, maybe not so _common[/b], but perfectly understood._





gengo said:


> I can't speak for Britain or Canada, but it's certainly in use in the US.  Naturally, it has a fairly high register, but I hear it in regular conversation from time to time.


I'll have to keep my ears peeled for this one, then. Thanks for the info.


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## Cholo234

pollohispanizado said:


> Is it still commonly used in Britain or something?


When you enter phrases into the NGram Viewer, it displays a graph showing how those phrases have occurred in a corpus of books (e.g., "British English", "English Fiction", "French") over the selected years.  As it says, "the results are noticeably different when the corpus is switched to British English."

Google Books Ngram Viewer


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## pollohispanizado

Thanks, Cholo. I was indeed unfamiliar.

Funnily enough, the word has been on the decline in "BrEn" and on a big uptrend in the US (North?) America since the 70s. (I fell prey to the dreaded "America=US" false equivalency for a second there ).


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## MonsieurGonzalito

"abided by by" ciertamente forma parte del vocabulario legal de contratos estadonidense, al menos

Wisconsin Employment Relations Commission Award MA-7199


> According to the terms of the 1991-92 collective bargaining _agreement_ between Mercer ... duress should be _abided by by_ both parties who signed the _contract_.



Exhibit


> fully _abided by by_ the terms and conditions of the Security _Agreement_ during ...



Expert on Assumption of the Risk Picks Up Another Victory


> Schools Rules for Wrestling were _abided by by_ all the defendants, ...



(y a mí me consta porque he tenido que "abide by" unas cuantas cosas en mi vida)


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## Reina de la Aldea

OtroLencho said:


> I've spent waaay too much time reading scientific publications where nobody seems to take responsibility for their actions and everything's written in passive voice.


Yes. The passive voice seems more or less universal in reportage.  It imparts more authority to the article, being the cool, neutral, objective, disembodied voice of reason.


MonsieurGonzalito said:


> a mí me consta porque he tenido que "abide by" unas cuantas cosas en mi vida


 Me too.  Live and learn


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