# Appartamento indipendente e abitabile



## tosco

Buongiorno a tutti,

sono alle prese con la traduzione della seguente frase in un annuncio immobiliare:

"Appartamento indipendente ed abitabile".

Il mio tentativo di traduzione e' "Separate and livable apartment", ma nutro forti dubbi sulla traduzione di "abitabile" con "livable".

C'e' qualcuno che puo' darmi qualche suggerimento?

Grazie in anticipo,

Tosco


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## ALEX1981X

Livable and independent flat (apartment)


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## rrose17

ALEX1981X said:


> Livable and independent flat


 Sorry but I think this would not be understandable. I think Tosco's makes more sense, although I'm not sure what exactly is being referred to here? Is it something like " a finished self-contained unit"?


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## ALEX1981X

Intendi _Independent apartment_ ?...meglio "_separate_" ?

Quindi questi sono sbagliati dici ?  http://www.sibt.nsw.edu.au/index.php/student-services/108.html?task=view


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## rrose17

I understand that context, meaning off-campus housing but is this what Tosco is referring to?


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## ALEX1981X

Tosco parla di un annuncio immobiliare sicuramente letto su una rivista...he refers only and simply to an apartment

In Italia usiamo sia "indipendente" che "autonomo" a volte per quanto riguarda i locali,appartamenti..etc...per esprimere quelli che hanno un ingresso separato,autonomo  e diviso dal resto delle case o del condominio..etc

Non usate mai _Independent_ in questo senso in Inglese ?

Oppure è una questione British vs American English ?


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## Paulfromitaly

tosco said:


> Buongiorno a tutti,
> 
> sono alle prese con la traduzione della seguente frase in un annuncio immobiliare:
> 
> "Appartamento indipendente ed abitabile".



Vorrei che ci spiegassi cosa significa abitabile (esistono appartamenti non abitabili? E allora li affitto a quale scopo?)


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## Jelsah

You know, when I was a student I did quite a bit of renting and I found that they used the word "abitabile" to mean it was big enough to live in!  They were usually quite small (but all I could afford at the time) and I suppose they meant "abitabile" in the sense they were fit for human use.  Of course, Paul from Italy is quite right what else would you rent an apartment out for?  Well, having said that, they do rent out garconnieres, don't they?  I don't think they do much living in them


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## Paulfromitaly

Abitabile has a really specific meaning in this context related to the certificate of  habitability.
Premises must be abitabili, otherwise they could not be rented.


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## ALEX1981X

Scusate ragazzi ma l'aggettivo allora ?

_Independent_ è passabile o è un errore ?


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## london calling

Paulfromitaly said:


> Abitabile has a really specific meaning in this context related to the certificate of habitability.
> Premises must be abitabili, otherwise they could not be rented.


Yes, even for "uso ufficio" it has to be "abitabile". Mind you, we don't know who wrote the ad. It might be by someone wanting to rent their place out who says "abitabile" to mean what Jelsah said above. Or maybe they mean "libero", i.e. you can move in straight away (yes, I know that's wrong!).

I think we'd better wait for some more input from tosco (or from an estate agent!) about "abitabile".

By the way tosco, we say "separate entrance"/"with it's own entrance".


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## Jelsah

I would say an independent flat and I have seen a lot of ads in London for spacious independent flats or independent flats with kitchenettes. So, for British English there is nothing wrong with an independent flat.

Sorry, I cross messaged with London calling.  She is right in the sense that with a separate entrance is much better English but I think independent works too.


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## ALEX1981X

Jelsah said:


> I would say an independent flat and I have seen a lot of ads in London for spacious independent flats or independent flats with kitchenettes. So, for British English there is nothing wrong with an independent flat.



Ok..so_ independent flat _is not bad "in England" !
 ..and "_separate entrance_" is correct, if we're talking about the entrance only or in general also for the flat, isn't it ??!


Thanks for answering


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## london calling

ALEX1981X said:


> Ok..so_ independent flat _is not bad "in England" !
> ..and "_separate entrance_" is correct, if we're talking about the entrance only or in general also for the flat, isn't it ??! Hai aperto il link che ho postato? Viene da un sito londinese....


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## ALEX1981X

No London..darò un occhiata..grazie per avermelo precisato !

Devo scappare.. 

Thanks


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## elfa

ALEX1981X said:


> Ok..so_ independent flat _is not  bad "in England" !
> ..and "_separate entrance_" is correct, if we're talking about the  entrance only or in general also for the flat, isn't it ??!



Sorry, but I disagree with Jelsah on this. To me, "independent flat" has no meaning (and I have rented quite a number of flats and rooms!) I agree with londoncalling - either
_
flat with its own entrance _or _flat with a separate entrance_ (if part of a larger unit) or
_
self-contained flat/apartment_

As for _abitabile_, I agree that we definitely need tosco's input for clarification of the term.


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## Jelsah

I don't want to make a storm in a teacupt about this and "Flat with its own entrance" is better, there is no doubt about that but I have found (and seen) references to independent flats - 
Manchester International College talks about "An independent flat                            or room in either an apartment or house. £90 to                          £150 per week excluding meals on its website", for example.


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## tosco

L'annuncio che sto traducendo riguarda una villa. Nel piano interrato della villa e' stato ricavato un appartamento che viene definito "indipendente ed abitabile". Credo quindi che significhi "indipendente" dal resto della villa, cioe' i piani non interrati.

"abitabile" credo quindi che si riferisca al fatto che l'appartamento abbia il certificato di abitabilita'. Deve avere per esempio il bagno, altrimenti non e' "abitabile": senza bagno ci si potrebbe andare per esempio a mangiare, ma non a vivere.

Spero di avervi dato sufficienti dettagli.

Grazie mille a tutti, Tosco.


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## rrose17

For another kick at the can I think I'd go with
_self-contained apartment/unit with amenities_


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## Blackman

tosco said:


> L'annuncio che sto traducendo riguarda una villa. Nel piano interrato della villa e' stato ricavato un appartamento che viene definito "indipendente ed abitabile". Credo quindi che significhi "indipendente" dal resto della villa, cioe' i piani non interrati.
> 
> "abitabile" credo quindi che si riferisca al fatto che l'appartamento abbia il certificato di abitabilita'. Deve avere per esempio il bagno, altrimenti non e' "abitabile": senza bagno ci si potrebbe andare per esempio a mangiare, ma non a vivere.
> 
> Spero di avervi dato sufficienti dettagli.
> 
> Grazie mille a tutti, Tosco.


 
_Abitabile_ viene spesso usato nel senso di _pronto per essere abitato_, cioè gia con il mobilio minimo indispensabile per viverci.


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## elfa

Blackman said:


> _Abitabile_ viene spesso usato nel senso di _pronto per essere abitato_, cioè gia con il mobilio minimo indispensabile per viverci.



A quel punto, si direbbe

_furnished self-contained flat/apartmen_t or 
_furnished flat with own entrance_ (if indeed it has its own entrance from the street)


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## Tellure

Se può servire, ho trovato questo:


> *abitàbile* agg. [dal lat. _habitab__ĭ__lis_]. –  *1.* Che si può abitare: _casa a_., _non a_., che ha, o non ha, le  condizioni igieniche, di sicurezza, ecc., adatte all’abitazione; _una soffitta a_.


Treccani.it


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## Caroline35

tosco said:


> Buongiorno a tutti,
> 
> sono alle prese con la traduzione della seguente frase in un annuncio immobiliare:
> 
> "Appartamento indipendente ed abitabile".
> 
> Il mio tentativo di traduzione e' "Separate and livable apartment", ma nutro forti dubbi sulla traduzione di "abitabile" con "livable".
> 
> C'e' qualcuno che puo' darmi qualche suggerimento?
> 
> Grazie in anticipo,
> 
> Tosco


 
Ciao Tosco
My answer to your question is the following:  a self-contained ready to live in unit or flat.


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## elfa

Caroline35 said:


> Ciao Tosco
> My answer to your question is the following:  a self-contained ready to live in unit or flat.



As a native English speaker, I have to say that "ready to live in unit or flat" is not a phrase one normally hears or sees written.


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## london calling

elfa said:


> As a native English speaker, I have to say that "ready to live in unit or flat" is not a phrase one normally hears or sees written.


I agree. 

_A self-contained, furnished flat with its own entrance_ fits the bill, in my opinion.


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## CPA

A _furnished apartment _would be an _appartamento ammobigliato. _A_ cucina abitabile _means it's big enough to eat in, i.e. there's room for a table and chairs. Since tosco is referring to a basement flat, _abitabile _suggests that it's habitable (not too dark and damp) and, as rrose said, with amenities, but not necessarily furnished. As far as I know, _indipendente, _in Italian, always means it has its own entrance.


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## Tuscania

I'd go with "small apartment with private entrance". In English, the word "apartment" implies "able to be lived in" (which is what the certificato di abitabilita' indicates, in a legal sense).  The word "abitabile" is difficult to translate in a general sense because it has so many meanings. In real estate ads, it sometimes means "small, with just enough space for a table" Real estate ads tend to do crazy things with the lexicon (consider, for example, the real meaning of "luminoso"...)


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## london calling

CPA said:


> A _furnished apartment _would be an _appartamento ammobigliato . _A_ cucina abitabile _means it's big enough to eat in, i.e. there's room for a table and chairs. Since tosco is referring to a basement flat, _abitabile _suggests that it's habitable (not too dark and damp) and, as rrose said, with amenities, but not necessarily furnished. As far as I know, _indipendente, _in Italian, always means it has its own entrance.


Actually yes, you're right,_ furnished_ (ammobiliato) doesn't come into this.

So it's  a self-contained flat with its own entrance, which maybe has bathroom and kitchen facilities, i.e  it's all plumbed (say that in two words)......


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## Odysseus54

london calling said:


> Actually yes, you're right,_ furnished_ (ammobiliato) doesn't come into this.
> 
> So it's  a self-contained flat with its own entrance, which maybe has bathroom and kitchen facilities, i.e  it's all plumbed (say that in two words)......




Here we would say ".. in move-in conditions ", meaning that all basic amenities are there ( here it would mean at least one bathroom , a furnished kitchen, cabinets only,  with stove and fridge, working A/C, basic window treatments ) and that all flooring , doors and windows are in working conditions.


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## Blackman

In move-in conditions e' normalmente il senso di abitabile negli annunci.


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## Caroline35

elfa said:


> As a native English speaker, I have to say that "ready to live in unit or flat" is not a phrase one normally hears or sees written.


 I agree with you, Neither did I.  I tried only to translate from Italian into English the expression "abitabile"  I think there is a better way of transalting "abitabile" into English which makes some sense and it's ;in my view; ready to nmove in.
What do you think?
A big thanks from
Caroline


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## elfa

Odysseus54 said:


> Here we would say ".. in move-in conditions ",  meaning that all basic amenities are there ( here it would mean at  least one bathroom , a furnished kitchen, cabinets only,  with stove and  fridge, working A/C, basic window treatments ) and that all flooring ,  doors and windows are in working conditions.



Aren't we trying to overgild the lily, as they say? As far as I know we don't have anything like "move-in conditions". I actually think Tuscania's suggestion of "small apartment with private entrance" would fit the bill. Otherwise LC and my suggestions without the adjective "furnished". After all, anybody with any experience might surmise that an advert saying "small apartment" is going to be lacking somewhat in amenities. And if they don't know when they read the advert, they certainly will when they go and see it...


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## Paulfromitaly

elfa said:


> Aren't we trying to overgild the lily, as they say?


Not only that: someone is also speculating a bit too much, seeing as the original sentence doesn't say anything more than "apartment with private entrance".
In any civilised country, where people don't try to pass off a pit as a flat, adding abitabile would be redundant.


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## Odysseus54

Paulfromitaly said:


> Not only that: someone is also speculating a bit too much, seeing as the original sentence doesn't say anything more than "apartment with private entrance".



Why do you say that ?  Post #1 clearly states "appartamento indipendente e abitabile".   What am I missing here ?



> In any civilised country, where people don't try to pass off a pit as a flat, adding abitabile would be redundant.



However, if the apartment, although built to code , following the "criteri di abitabilita' " , doesn't have heating, for instance, nor a kitchen, it would be in a different category that one with heating and a kitchen, don't you think ?


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## Paulfromitaly

Odysseus54 said:


> Why do you say that ?  Post #1 clearly states "*appartamento indipendente e abitabile*".   What am I missing here ?


Exactly 

The original sentence doesn't specify whether the apartment is furnished or not, whether it's small or quite big, whether there are amenities or not.


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## Odysseus54

Paulfromitaly said:


> Exactly
> 
> The original sentence doesn't specify whether the apartment is furnished or not, whether it's small or quite big, whether there are amenities or not.



Be patient, I am a bit slow this morning   - it does however say 'abitabile', which is either a redundant platitude ( like advertising your restaurant as serving 'cibo commestibile' ) , or a meaningful comment.

If we exclude "abitabilita' " in the sense of "built to code", what other options are we left with ?


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## Teerex51

tosco said:


> ...*"abitabile" credo quindi che si riferisca al fatto che l'appartamento abbia il certificato di abitabilita'*. Deve avere per esempio il bagno, altrimenti non e' "abitabile": senza bagno ci si potrebbe andare per esempio a mangiare, ma non a vivere.



How about this snippet of information (post #18) that probably got buried in this snowball-thread?


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