# Hindi/Urdu: Dev



## panjabigator

Greetings all,

I've searched and searched, but I can't seem to find information on this word within this forum, though I feel certain that it has been addressed once before.  I apologize ahead of time if this thread is already extant somewhere.

In Hindi (and Sanskrit), the word "dev" means God, but I read recently that the word was transmitted from Proto Indo-Aryan (an imagined predecessor to Sanskrit and indeed all languages in the Indo-Aryan category) to Avestan to mean devil - a completely diametric definition to Sanskrit's.  Does this word have currency in Urdu as "devil" and would its "Hindi" equivalent be understood by a Pakistani Urduphone?

Omlink, you may recall this being the subject of an old posting on one of the now kaput Hindi-Urdu forums - I can't seem to log in to that anymore, but maybe you access it if needed.  

Cheers,
PG

Edit:  This thread on Romani is relevant.


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## lcfatima

Are you asking if in Urdu, dev means devil? No, I have never heard of that. Shaytaan or ibliis means devil. I think dev means "giant" like a mythological giant, though. 

I presume Urdu speakers would just recognize dev as a Hindi word, like bhagvaan. One hears Hindi speakers saying things like Buddh Dev, devtaaon ka ghar, etc. in films.


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## BP.

Con't say about Avestan, but there's a continuity in meaning from the Sanskrit _dev_ to Romance _deus, dieu, dios, dio_ etc.

In Urdu the closest words to _dev_ are _deo_* and _deotaa_ (Hindi: _devtaa_). While _deotaa_ has preserved its meanings, _deo_ evokes the image of a humongous and powerful person or creature. Not the devil. That honour goes to the specific semitic word _shaetaan_-satan.




*an example of the shift from v to w when words migrate from Hindi(or its predecessors) to Urdu. The latter uses the same letter-و-_waao_ for v/w/o. The w sound is somewhat between the English _v_ and _w_, but closer to _w_. In the _deo_ example, it became o being the terminal lettre.


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## Faylasoof

Well, in Urdu we definitley do not use <dev> only <deo = giant /  colossal> i.e. dropping the sukoon on the <waw> and there is no common use to mean a _devil_, as others have said, but in Persian it is still <dev> =  demon, fiend, devil(ish). 

You see this form and usage everywhere in Persian both from Iran and Indo-Pak, e.g. in the Hamza Namah (Indian-Mughal Persian epic)- third painting shows Arghan Dev bringing up a chest of armour for Amir Hamza - the hero.


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## lcfatima

Oh, is this the same as the deoband tree?

I didn't know about the spelling, I was wondering why Urdu speakers said "deo" with a clear "o". Now it makes sense. I thought it was a variant in pronunciation before.


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## Faylasoof

Deoband? That I don't know. Just that in Urdu we say <deo> and not <dev>.


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## bakshink

That reminds me of the bed time stories my mother would tell. Deo- spoken as dyo (in Punjabi) was used for the giant and it's size left to the imagination of the child and we thought of it as a humongous being of human like appearance.


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## Frank06

Hi,

In this word list (which I cannot evaluate), daêum [daêva] is mentioned, meaning "m. Daeva, god, false god, devil (k241)". The shift in meaning doesn't strike me as particularly strange.

I found some references here and here on how the change occured (the bottomline is a kind of political-religious quarrel along the lines of "your god is our devil"). But again, I have no idea how to judge these sources.

Groetjes,

Frank


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## Faylasoof

Hi Frank,

Thanks for the very interesting and useful links! 

The difference within the Indo-Iranian cultures of the meaning of <dev /devtaa /devi /deo / deotaa> is something I had been told - one being negative the other having a positive meaning, and as these references also point out, this is very much an old and established fact. 

Often closely related religions have the most sharp differences! Something we see in the three Abrahamic religions too!


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## omlick

panjabigator said:


> Greetings all,
> 
> I've searched and searched, but I can't seem to find information on this word within this forum, though I feel certain that it has been addressed once before. I apologize ahead of time if this thread is already extant somewhere.
> 
> In Hindi (and Sanskrit), the word "dev" means God, but I read recently that the word was transmitted from Proto Indo-Aryan (an imagined predecessor to Sanskrit and indeed all languages in the Indo-Aryan category) to Avestan to mean devil - a completely diametric definition to Sanskrit's. Does this word have currency in Urdu as "devil" and would its "Hindi" equivalent be understood by a Pakistani Urduphone?
> 
> Omlink, you may recall this being the subject of an old posting on one of the now kaput Hindi-Urdu forums - I can't seem to log in to that anymore, but maybe you access it if needed.
> 
> Cheers,
> PG
> 
> Edit: This thread on Romani is relevant.


 
Your question has been answered very nicely. But if you are talking about the group on yahoogroups- "huial" (Hindi-Urdu intermediate and advanced learners) it is still there and you are still a member as far as I know.


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## panjabigator

bakshink said:


> That reminds me of the bed time stories my mother would tell. Deo- spoken as dyo (in Punjabi) was used for the giant and it's size left to the imagination of the child and we thought of it as a humongous being of human like appearance.



Is this a common Panjabi folk tale?  Can you provide some more information on this?


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## bakshink

PG- forgotten all, will try to see if any of my siblings remembers or can get from the large Punjabi community I am a member of.


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## rasik1

I believe it was the word Asura in Sanskrit that had an opposite meaning in ancient Avastha.  The Hindu mythology is replete with sotries of the Devas fighting with Asuras, the Asuras were considered villains in these stories. My understanding is that the aryans who settled in Iran worshiped Asuras as heroes and they have similar stories of how the Asura's triumphed over their enemies. It would be interesting to know if the modern Persian language contains the word Asura.


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## panjabigator

rasik1 said:


> I believe it was the word Asura in Sanskrit that had an opposite meaning in ancient Avastha.  The Hindu mythology is replete with sotries of the Devas fighting with Asuras, the Asuras were considered villains in these stories. My understanding is that the aryans who settled in Iran worshiped Asuras as heroes and they have similar stories of how the Asura's triumphed over their enemies. It would be interesting to know if the modern Persian language contains the word Asura.



Welcome Rasik1!

Other forer@s could probably explain this better, but I'll give it a go.  Asura and Dev switched connotations from Avesta to Sanskrit (to oversimplify), and this can be seen today with the Zoroastrian God "Ahuramazda."


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> Well, in Urdu we definitley do not use <dev> only <deo = giant /  colossal> i.e. dropping the sukoon on the <waw> and there is no common use to mean a _devil_, as others have said, but in Persian it is still <dev> =  demon, fiend, devil(ish).
> 
> You see this form and usage everywhere in Persian both from Iran and Indo-Pak, e.g. in the Hamza Namah (Indian-Mughal Persian epic)- third painting shows Arghan Dev bringing up a chest of armour for Amir Hamza - the hero.



A very interesting question and I am not sure I can add much more to what has already been said.

In my childhood, there was a children's booklet entitled "bachchoN kii dunyaa" which invariably had stories with fixed characters. baadshaah/raajaa, malikah/raanii, vaziir, shaahzaadah/shaahzaadii, jinn, pariyaaN and of courseدیو which we always pronounced as deo. Now, a deo was not the devil (shaitaan) but he was not a good character either. Always much much bigger than the poor hero (shaahzaadah). He was not as powerful as a jinn because a jinn had all sorts of magical powers which our "Kingkong" did n't have. At times a deo could be killed by killing a parrot because the deo's life dwelled in a parrot's body! Whenever a human being got in a sniffing distance of a deo, this deo would exclaim, "aadam-bo, aadam bo!" ( I smell a human, I smell a human). And so on and so forth.

Possibly because of this "deo", I have heard people say "deodaas" for the film and the character. I am intrigued how "deoband" came into being. Could it be linked to the fictitious "deo" which can be tied up by using a "deoband"? My Urdu dictionary has "deotaa" as well as "devtaa" by the way.

Coming to the Persian "dev", which may have have been pronounced as "dev" in the past but in Urdu and Modern Persian it is "diiv" and a "diivaanah" is someone like a "diiv"

Pديو _dev, dīv (esp. in comp.), vulg. deʼo [Pehl. dev; Zend daêva, fr. dīv; S. देव], s.m. An evil spirit, devil, demon, an evil jinn, a ghost, hobgoblin; a giant, a monster, a huge fellow or thing:—dev-bād, vulg. deʼo-bād, s.f. lit. 'A devil's wind,' a whirlwind, 'a devil':—deʼo-zād, adj. Demon-born or begotten:—dev-stān, vulg. deʼo-stān, s.m. The habitation of demons:—deʼo-kā-deʼo, s.m. A perfect giant, a veritable monster.

P ديوانه dīwāna [dīv, or dev, q.v.+Zend aff. ana or āna = S. अन], adj. (f. -ī), Mad, insane, lunatic; in an ecstasy, frenzied; inspired:—dīwāna banānā, or karnā, or kar-denā, v.t. To make mad, to madden._


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## BP.

QURESHPOR said:


> ... I am intrigued how "deoband" came into being. Could it be linked to the fictitious "deo" which can be tied up by using a "deoband"? ...


I wondered about that too, and came up with the hypothesis that the place might have been the site of a lore in which a deeoo was trapped and imprisoned,  i.e. deo-band may not be a tool (like kamar band) but the verbal reduction of a phrase such as yahaan deeoo band hai. I figured it might follow the pattern of ilaah aabaad - god resides [here].


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## BP.

QURESHPOR said:


> ...
> Coming to the Persian "dev", which may have have been pronounced as "dev" in the past but in Urdu and Modern Persian it is "diiv" and a "diivaanah" is someone like a "diiv"
> _...__
> P ديوانه dīwāna [dīv, or dev, q.v.+Zend aff. ana or āna = S. अन], adj. (f. -ī), Mad, insane, lunatic; in an ecstasy, frenzied; inspired:—dīwāna banānā, or karnā, or kar-denā, v.t. To make mad, to madden._


Now that's interesting. The Arabic equivalent to diiwaanah, majnuun, is someone who's been afflicted with a jinn. Coincidence?


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## Qureshpor

BelligerentPacifist said:


> I wondered about that too, and came up with the hypothesis that the place might have been the site of a lore in which a deeoo was trapped and imprisoned,  i.e. deo-band may not be a tool (like kamar band) but the verbal reduction of a phrase such as yahaan deeoo band hai. I figured it might follow the pattern of ilaah aabaad - god resides [here].



Looking at a few examples within Classical Persian poetry  دیوبند appears to imply the agent, that is to say "dev ko jakaRne vaalaa", "dev baaNdne vaalaa". Here is Firdausi. 

چنین گفت کز این بارگاه بلند 
برفتم سوی رستم دیوبند 

Thus he spoke, "From this grand palace
I headed for Rustam, the giant-fetterer"


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## BP.

Thanks for the poetry. Depends on the provenence, but I'll just assume it's the same as in the couplet.


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## Qureshpor

BelligerentPacifist said:


> Thanks for the poetry. Depends on the provenence, but I'll just assume it's the same as in the couplet.



Well, the "provenance" is "bastan" with its past stem as "bast" and the present stem "band" (c.f. band-o-bast). Just like "dil-rubaa" (dil ko le jaane vaalaa, heart-snatcher), here we have "dev-band" (dev ko baaNdne vaalaa).


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## lcfatima

I must have meant deodaar tree when I wrote deoband tree.


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## Qureshpor

lcfatima said:


> I must have meant deodaar tree when I wrote deoband tree.



Good example Fatima SaaHibah of a non-Persian word pronounced as "deo" and not "dev".


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## tonyspeed

This doesn't seem to have been mentioned but dev and deo are both spelled dev in Devanagari according to my Oxford Hindi Dictionary, but one is from Sanskrit and one is from Persian.


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## panjabigator

Thanks for pointing that out, Tonyspeed. I've noticed that many Hindi speakers pronounce this as a "v" (in words such as चनाव), whereas Urdu speakers often say this as an "o." Just my observation, though.


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## mundiya

Qureshpor said:


> In my childhood, there was a children's booklet entitled "bachchoN kii  dunyaa" which invariably had stories with fixed characters.  baadshaah/raajaa, malikah/raanii, vaziir, shaahzaadah/shaahzaadii, jinn,  pariyaaN and of courseدیو which  we always pronounced as deo. Now, a deo was not the devil (shaitaan)  but he was not a good character either. Always much much bigger than the  poor hero (shaahzaadah). He was not as powerful as a jinn because a  jinn had all sorts of magical powers which our "Kingkong" did n't have.  At times a deo could be killed by killing a parrot because the deo's  life dwelled in a parrot's body! Whenever a human being got in a  sniffing distance of a deo, this deo would exclaim, "aadam-bo, aadam  bo!" ( I smell a human, I smell a human). And so on and so forth.
> 
> [...]
> Coming to the Persian "dev", which may have have been pronounced as "dev" in the past but in Urdu and Modern Persian it is "diiv" and a "diivaanah" is someone like a "diiv"
> 
> Pديو _dev, dīv (esp. in comp.), vulg. deʼo [Pehl. dev; Zend daêva, fr. dīv; S. देव], s.m. An evil spirit, devil, demon, an evil jinn, a ghost, hobgoblin; a giant, a monster, a huge fellow or thing:—dev-bād, vulg. deʼo-bād, s.f. lit. 'A devil's wind,' a whirlwind, 'a devil':—deʼo-zād, adj. Demon-born or begotten:—dev-stān, vulg. deʼo-stān, s.m. The habitation of demons:—deʼo-kā-deʼo, s.m. A perfect giant, a veritable monster.
> _



Maybe I misunderstood you, but are "diiv" and "de'o" two different words in Urdu?  If they're the same word as Platts suggests, which is the more common pronunciation?


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## Qureshpor

mundiya said:


> Maybe I misunderstood you, but are "diiv" and "de'o" two different words in Urdu?  If they're the same word as Platts suggests, which is the more common pronunciation?


My understanding is that "de'o" is the more common pronunciation. With a suffix, it is diiv as in diivaanah.


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## nikmahesh

I think it just depends on where you're from. I would have thought "dev" was more standardized across all levels for Hindi-speakers, I certainly see it with all the young people I know, but deo is prominent too. Especially because many regional languages pronounce dev as deo as well. I know more city people who'll say "dev", and more gaon-wale who stick to deo, just in my personal experience.


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## muhammad amin

the word of dev is a persian word and pronunciation is ''deev'' and its a name of a demon in persian culture who is very ruthless and evil and he is a war god. i think prob word of devil comes from it.


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## Wolverine9

muhammad amin said:


> the word of dev is a persian word and pronunciation is ''deev'' and its a name of a demon in persian culture who is very ruthless and evil and he is a war god. i think prob word of devil comes from it.



No, _devil _is neither a cognate nor a borrowing from Persian _dēv/dīv._


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## Wolverine9

How is the plural of _deo _pronounced? Is it _deo'oN_?


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## marrish

In which language and/or sense?


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## Wolverine9

marrish said:


> In which language and/or sense?



In Urdu.


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## marrish

According to the online Urdu encyclopedia dictionary, it is:
{(جمع غیر ندائی: دیوؤں {دیو (و مجہول) + اوں (و مجہول
_jam3-e-Ghair~nidaa'ii: *deo'oN {deo (waaw-e-maj_huul) + oN (waaw-e-maj_huul)}
*
waaw-e-maj_huul means "o". _Possible might be* devu'oN.*


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