# Banning Mein Kampf



## TRG

Today I ran across this, which is an essay on the supposed popularity of _Mein Kampf_ in Islamic countries. This is a disturbing thing if true, and someone may wish to comment on it if they know. My real question pertains to whether it is appropriate to ban a book such as _Mein Kampf_. I found the poll on banning Harry Potter books and was dismayed to find that about 1 in 10 people voting voted yes or I don't care. So what do you think? Should _Mein Kampf_ be banned everywhere?


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## panjabigator

I personally wouldn't mind if it were banned, but isn't it against the constitution to ban reading material?  Or am I confusing myself with freedom of press.  Probably am...


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## maxiogee

TRG said:


> My real question pertains to whether it is appropriate to ban a book such as _Mein Kampf_.



Is it ever appropriate to ban _any_ book?
I would argue that banning books is the thin end of the wedge which ends up banning certain people from expressing their opinions freely.
The best safeguard against illiberal books is a sound education system and a genuinely free press/media.


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## TRG

I forgot to mention that the essay I referred to mentioned that _Mein Kampf _is already banned in some European countries.


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## Outsider

I know that _Main Kampf_ is banned in some European countries, for historical reasons. I've always been curious to know how the banning was justified, and what the people in those countries felt about it. It would be nice to hear from people from those countries. (Heck, I don't even know if it's banned in my country! )


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## invictaspirit

_Mein Kampf _should be compulsory reading for everyone.

It is so hilariously badly written that it acts as a model of how not to write.  Plus the ideas within are idiotic.  I grew up hating and fearing the memory of Hitler.  Then I read _Mein kampf_ and more or less felt sorry for him.  The man was an exceptionally over-romantic, sugary, sentimental psychopath who could barely string five words together without using some guffaw-inducing metaphor.

I don't know what Muslims get out of reading it (if indeed, they are doing so).  90% of it is a whining tirade about his own life and feelings.


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## Outsider

TRG said:


> Today I ran across this, which is an essay on the supposed popularity of _Mein Kampf_ in Islamic countries.


From that article:


> Muslim and Arab society is today a failure much as Communism used to be.


Yes, that sounds like an unbiased article.  
Yes, I trust an author who writes like that will provide me with reliable data... 

...not.



> Catering to such people since the early '60s, editions of Mein Kampf have been put out in Lebanon and Saudi Arabia, and it is reported to be a bestseller in the Palestinian Authority area.


"Reported" by whom? He doesn't bother to say. Good then, I won't bother to keep reading his anti-Muslim diatribe.


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## elpoderoso

TRG said:


> Today I ran across this, which is an essay on the supposed popularity of _Mein Kampf_ in Islamic countries. This is a disturbing thing if true, and someone may wish to comment on it if they know. My real question pertains to whether it is appropriate to ban a book such as _Mein Kampf_. I found the poll on banning Harry Potter books and was dismayed to find that about 1 in 10 people voting voted yes or I don't care. So what do you think? Should _Mein Kampf_ be banned everywhere?


 
Ban it!!! why don't we burn it on a big bonfire with other literature we disapprove of. I remember someone else had a similar idea last century.


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## TRG

elpoderoso said:


> Ban it!!! why don't we burn it on a big bonfire with other literature we disapprove of. I remember someone else had a similar idea last century.


 
I get your point that AH was a book burner, and I agree that, in some respects, it is an impertinent question, but if the book is actually banned in some countries or if it is fostering a resurgence in Hitler's ideas then it is something to think about.


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## elpoderoso

I see what you mean,i think though that the book should be available no strings attached though, the only poeple who would want to read it are Neo nazis, Fascists or whatever and people interested in history,(not that you cant be in both camps). 
The book will only be preaching to the converted in any case so what difference would banning it make?


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## Thomsen

I think banning something only attracts certains kinds of people to it's undesirable qualities.  Since nothing is really inaccessible anymore if you want it enough, I would say it's only adding fuel to the fire...


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## elpoderoso

Thomsen said:


> I think banning something only attracts certains kinds of people to it's undesirable qualities. Since nothing is really inaccessible anymore if you want it enough, I would say it's only adding fuel to the fire...


I agree with your second point, thanks to the internet, modern day mein kampfs or mein blogs can fulfill every neo-nazis reading wishes.


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## Jana337

Outsider said:


> "Reported" by whom? He doesn't bother to say.


This was confirmed by reputable sources like Memri.

***

Here and here information about a recent case in my country. Two years ago, the publisher was acquitted by the constitutional court.

In the early 1990s, selected parts of the book appeared with a comment by a former communist politician. Not much furor over this one.

Jana


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## Outsider

Jana337 said:


> This was confirmed by reputable sources like Memri.


Thank you very much for that link, Jana.

I see that the book was banned in Palestine during the many years of Israeli rule, and has just now become available, so sales have been good. Is this supposed to shock me, TRG?


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## TRG

Outsider said:


> Thank you very much for that link, Jana.
> 
> I see that the book was banned in Palestine during the many years of Israeli rule, and has just now become available, so sales have been good. Is this supposed to shock me, TRG?


 
One would hope so. You should similarly be shocked that the president of Iran seems to want to deny the Holocaust and recently one of his associates is reported to have said that Hitler was a Jew and a Zionist. But, this gets off topic.


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## Outsider

TRG said:


> One would hope so.


Were you shocked at the predominantly _Christian_ countries where the book has been published for decades, too?


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## heidita

elpoderoso said:


> Ban it!!! why don't we burn it on a big bonfire with other literature we disapprove of. I remember someone else had a similar idea last century.


Exactly, so if we ban it, we are doing the same thing as burning it. Hence, we do the same thing as he did.


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## Thomsen

TRG said:


> One would hope so. You should similarly be shocked that the president of Iran seems to want to deny the Holocaust and recently one of his associates is reported to have said that Hitler was a Jew and a Zionist. But, this gets off topic.


 
Being shocked is different than disagreeing with someone's stance.  Many people have different opinions or beliefs than me, but I don't all too often find them shocking.  Maybe I am just cynical.

Sorry if this is off topic, but I think the subtext of the thread has not to much to do specifically with banning books...


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## .   1

invictaspirit said:


> _Mein Kampf _should be compulsory reading for everyone.
> 
> It is so hilariously badly written that it acts as a model of how not to write. Plus the ideas within are idiotic. I grew up hating and fearing the memory of Hitler. Then I read _Mein kampf_ and more or less felt sorry for him. The man was an exceptionally over-romantic, sugary, sentimental psychopath who could barely string five words together without using some guffaw-inducing metaphor.
> 
> I don't know what Muslims get out of reading it (if indeed, they are doing so). 90% of it is a whining tirade about his own life and feelings.


I had suspected as much.
The only reason to ban the book would be if the book contained dangerous ideas like how to build a nuclear or chemical or biological weapon but as it is merely the ramblings of self delusion I see nothing but benefit in releasing the book in spoken word form so that it would even be available to the ignorantly illiterate who chose to not read.
His ideas are obviously false yet by banning them they are given some credence.

.,,


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## cuchuflete

> *DON'T JOIN THE BOOK BURNERS*
> Don't think you're going to conceal faults by concealing evidence that they ever existed. Don't be afraid to go in your library and read every book, as long as any document does not offend our own ideas of decency.
> 
> How will we defeat ... unless we know what it is, what it teaches, and why does it have such an appeal for men, why are so many people swearing allegiance to it?
> 
> And we have got to fight it with something better, not try to conceal the thinking ...


From the remarks of the President of the United States  _[Dwight David Eisenhower]_ at the Dartmouth College Commencement on June 14th, 1953. Published by the Dartmouth College Library, Hanover, New Hampshire.   source


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## gaer

TRG said:


> Today I ran across this, which is an essay on the supposed popularity of _Mein Kampf_ in Islamic countries. This is a disturbing thing if true, and someone may wish to comment on it if they know. My real question pertains to whether it is appropriate to ban a book such as _Mein Kampf_. I found the poll on banning Harry Potter books and was dismayed to find that about 1 in 10 people voting voted yes or I don't care. So what do you think? Should _Mein Kampf_ be banned everywhere?


Good grief. <sigh>

What is the good of reading one man's opinion of a book without being able to read the book? If I can't read the book myself, how can I judge the opinions of others?

Am I the only person to find it more than ironic that we are discussing the banning of a book that is discussed in a link given in this thread?  

Look what this link says:

"The book is banned in Germany, but for some years Random House has been marketing an English translation, defending itself with the argument that it is a historic text which has to be studied."

Well, apparently David Pryce-Jones considers it quite appropriate for HIM to read the book and then give us his opinions. 

What did he just do? He read the historic text. I presume he studied it. Why shouldn't we do the same?

I don't get it.

Gaer


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## Kelly B

Most people really do behave in a rational manner, but you have to understand what drives them to realize it. They have reasons and motivations that make sense from their point of view. If you throw up your hands and call them crazy, then you have no hope of changing their behavior. More importantly, you have no hope of preventing that behavior in a new generation.

If you burn books by "crazy people," thinking that they are just an incitement to violence, then you fail to address the root cause, and you are doomed to see more "crazy people" doing the same things over again. You have to read it, and try to understand it, and thus informed, work against its foundations.


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## roxcyn

I don't think it should be banned or burned because people already have ways of spreading it via the Internet.  For example, I have seen the book available via pdf file on websites and peer-to-peer file share networks.  Is there really a point if we burn or ban the book?  I don't think so as it is easily to find on the internet, plus you can learn from the mistakes that Mr. Hitler did in the past.  Isn't that what we should do as a citizen?


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## caballoschica

"Every banned book enlightens the world." Ralph Waldo Emerson....I found this quote via jkrowling.com and I do think that it is true.

To me, banning books is going along with the mindset of 'ignorance is bliss'. The more you don't know the better you feel.  Yet shouldn't you want to know all you can about the mindsets of people that you don't agree with to better understand their position and thus better support your stance?


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## Abu Bishr

Jana337 said:


> This was confirmed by reputable sources like Memri.


 
I found this wikipedia article on "Memri". Read especially the section on criticism, and let us discuss as to whether it could be considered a "credible" source in this case. Even if the article is true, is it representative of the the majority of Muslims. We know that there are issues between Israel and Palestine as well as the rest of the Muslim and Arab world. How come nothing positive is ever said about Islam and Muslims, or do these things not warrant discussion. Why should Muslims and Islam, and the Arab world, now be implicitly associated with Adolf Hitler, and his book "Mein Kampf". Why could the topic not just simply have been "Should _Mein Kampf_ by Adolf Hitler be banned?" ...? I've been living for 6 years now in the Midlle East, and in various Arab countries, and not once did I hear Hitler's book mentioned. Also, I'm an avid book reader, and addicted to book buying, and not once did I see _Mein Kampf_ advertised or promoted at any of the book shops that I've been to, and I've been to many. I've even been to "al-Shurooq" Bookshop, in Amman-Jordan, and I did not see the book there, not mention being promoted. Maybe at the time it was published, people might have been interested in it (which is mere speculation on my part), but never did I hear the book being mentioned over there and I stayed there for 2 years, and in Syria for 3 years, all after 1999. I've met many westerners coming to visit these countries, and they are always surprised at how different these countries and their people are from what they have heard and read in the media.

So how do you guys feel now after Jana 337's confirmation of the information by providing a "reputable" source (Memri) and insider's retort "Is this supposed to shock me?", and then the silence, as if it's ok to demonize Muslims and Arabs whether directly or indirectly, because that seems to be the "in-thing". If you have never been to the Arab and Muslim world before, then I suggest you go there as soon as possible and meet Muslims and Arabs in real life, instead of learning about them through the media, and you will see a reality different from the one constructed by media. Get off your PC's, and start exploring the real world, instead of the virtual one on internet. Now, if some of you feel inflamed about what I've said, in this post then think how certain members on this forum must feel, if they find their religion, culture and people being demonized (explicitly & implicitly) everyday, and yet none bothers to find out what these people are really about. They are merely contented by what they read in "reputable" sources. I've tried (and, I think, many other members in this forum, like myself) not to get involved when issues of this kind are being discussed, simply because I want to maintain peace and overlook implicit or even explicit negative references to one's culture and religion, but sometimes you feel you have to intervene, and this is one of those times.

*By the way, the article published by Memri is dated 1999, and the article provided by the link posted by TRG is dated 2002, and it is now 2007.*


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## Jana337

You're reading too much into it, Abu Bishr. In the same post where I mentioned MEMRI (yes, I think it is a reputable source) in passing, I cited a case from my own country. The print run was far from small, and many copies were sold before the authorities confiscated the rest, which I thought was a flagrant violation of the freedom of expression. Does the fact that Mein Kampf was distributed in the Czech Republic make Czechs associated with Hitler in any way? I don't think so.

I'm against banning books. Several years ago, I made an attempt to read the hateful and poorly written book. I gave up after a couple of pages. Life's too short. Anyway, for me, trying to study the book doesn't carry a stigma (while I suspect that you wrote your reply under the assumption that it does). I tried and everyone should be free to do so as well. I am actually offended when self-righteous pundits imply that only a select few should be allowed to study the book. 

Jana


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## Etcetera

Jana337 said:


> Several years ago, I made an attempt to read the hateful and poorly written book. I gave up after a couple of pages.


So did I. 
Frankly speaking, I was even _surprised_ that the book was so poorly written.
But I'm sure that Mein Kampf should be banned. I know some people who simply went crazy after reading it. They were pretty anti-fascist, but after they read the book, they said, "Oh, Hitler was so misunderstood! He was just romantic, in fact". Stuff like that. I couldn't believe my ears when I heard it!


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## Victoria32

maxiogee said:


> Is it ever appropriate to ban _any_ book?
> I would argue that banning books is the thin end of the wedge which ends up banning certain people from expressing their opinions freely.
> The best safeguard against illiberal books is a sound education system and a genuinely free press/media.


Exactly right, Maxiogee! 


Outsider said:


> Were you shocked at the predominantly _Christian_ countries where the book has been published for decades, too?


It was available in New Zealand when I was a teen (and as far as I know still is). I tried to read it at about 16, and came to the same conclusion as InvictaSpirit... it is unreadable 


Abu Bishr said:


> I found this wikipedia article on "Memri". Read especially the section on criticism, and let us discuss as to whether it could be considered a "credible" source in this case. Even if the article is true, is it representative of the the majority of Muslims. We know that there are issues between Israel and Palestine as well as the rest of the Muslim and Arab world. How come nothing positive is ever said about Islam and Muslims, or do these things not warrant discussion. Why should Muslims and Islam, and the Arab world, now be implicitly associated with Adolf Hitler, and his book "Mein Kampf". Why could the topic not just simply have been "Should _Mein Kampf_ by Adolf Hitler be banned?" ...? I've been living for 6 years now in the Midlle East, and in various Arab countries, and not once did I hear Hitler's book mentioned. Also, I'm an avid book reader, and addicted to book buying, and not once did I see _Mein Kampf_ advertised or promoted at any of the book shops that I've been to, and I've been to many. I've even been to "al-Shurooq" Bookshop, in Amman-Jordan, and I did not see the book there, not mention being promoted. Maybe at the time it was published, people might have been interested in it (which is mere speculation on my part), but never did I hear the book being mentioned over there and I stayed there for 2 years, and in Syria for 3 years, all after 1999. I've met many westerners coming to visit these countries, and they are always surprised at how different these countries and their people are from what they have heard and read in the media.
> 
> So how do you guys feel now after Jana 337's confirmation of the information by providing a "reputable" source (Memri) and insider's retort "Is this supposed to shock me?", and then the silence, as if it's ok to demonize Muslims and Arabs whether directly or indirectly, because that seems to be the "in-thing". If you have never been to the Arab and Muslim world before, then I suggest you go there as soon as possible and meet Muslims and Arabs in real life, instead of learning about them through the media, and you will see a reality different from the one constructed by media. Get off your PC's, and start exploring the real world, instead of the virtual one on internet. Now, if some of you feel inflamed about what I've said, in this post then think how certain members on this forum must feel, if they find their religion, culture and people being demonized (explicitly & implicitly) everyday, and yet none bothers to find out what these people are really about. They are merely contented by what they read in "reputable" sources. I've tried (and, I think, many other members in this forum, like myself) not to get involved when issues of this kind are being discussed, simply because I want to maintain peace and overlook implicit or even explicit negative references to one's culture and religion, but sometimes you feel you have to intervene, and this is one of those times.
> 
> *By the way, the article published by Memri is dated 1999, and the article provided by the link posted by TRG is dated 2002, and it is now 2007.*


I am just reading the article about Memri, which I have never regarded as a  reliable source... having had a debate going about Palestinian rights with some people for years! 
I have a Syrian (Muslim) colleague I talk to a lot and a Turkish (Italian speaking which is how we got in touch) pen friend who is also a Muslim. So I know a fair few Muslims (many are refugees from Eastern Europe after the unpleasantness there in the late '90s. ) 

Vicky


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## Qcumber

History is written by the victors. If they ban a book, it's because they think it would inform people about them and their tricks.


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## .   1

Abu Bishr said:


> Now, if some of you feel inflamed about what I've said, in this post then think how certain members on this forum must feel, if they find their religion, culture and people being demonized (explicitly & implicitly) everyday, and yet none bothers to find out what these people are really about.


G'day Abu Bishr,
Many of us also simply ignore the ignorant comments of the illinformed rabble.
My father taught me that it is foolish to argue with a fool as observers may be confused as to the identity of the fool.

.,,


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## TRG

Abu Bishr said:


> Why should Muslims and Islam, and the Arab world, now be implicitly associated with Adolf Hitler, and his book "Mein Kampf". Why could the topic not just simply have been "Should _Mein Kampf_ by Adolf Hitler be banned?" ...? I've been living for 6 years now in the Midlle East, and in various Arab countries, and not once did I hear Hitler's book mentioned.


 
When I started the thread, I did not take at face value the claim about the popularity of _Mein Kampf_ in Arab or Islamic countries. That is why I asked for people with actual knowledge to comment. On the other hand, we have just been treated to the spectacle of a global conference on the truth about the Holocaust in Teheran, Iran. David Duke, a former republican state representative and nearly governor of my home state of Louisiana, was there spewing his vile, racist propaganda. I have no doubt the he is a great admirer of AH so if he is going to Iran to commune with others of his ilk I must assume there is at least some truth to the view that his ideas have a following in Islamic countries. I cannot imagine another country where such a meeting could occur and if it did it would be met with general outrage. It's not a trivial matter.


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## Cecilio

I would say that, in theory, a book can be banned if it breaks the law of a given nation. I suppose there must be many cases in many countries, not because there is a censoring board devoted to book scrutinizing but because there is someone who decides to sue an author or a publisher for a given reason. The question is if _Mein Kampf_ is one of those law-breakers. I don't think it is in Spain, but apparently it is in other countries. I suppose that behind these decisions there is some serious legal process.

I'm one of those who started to read _Mein Kampf_ but couldn't go beyond the second page, so I can't really say if this book is really outrageous, unacceptable or just stupid. For most people, Mein Kampf is just a title associated with the most demonised figure in history. It's a pity, because that phrase, _Mein Kampf_, is indeed beautiful.


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## ireney

"Iran", even if all Iranians believe the same thing (whatever this "thing" is) is not equivalent to "Muslims".


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## .   1

TRG said:


> I have no doubt the he is a great admirer of AH so if he is going to Iran to commune with others of his ilk I must assume there is at least some truth to the view that his ideas have a following in Islamic countries. I cannot imagine another country where such a meeting could occur and if it did it would be met with general outrage. It's not a trivial matter.


I think that this is a very long bow to draw.
All sorts of wackos spout endless nonsense in Australia. David Duke is a well known dribbler and I doubt if he would raise too many supportive column inches with a visit down under.
Of course you are right that there must be some interest in David Duke if he can find even one other person to converse with in any given country.
Of course you may be right that David Duke is a fan of Adolf Hitler.
David Duke may well think that Mein Kampf is the equivalent of the bible.
It is a long supposition to gell the above information and come to the conclusion that Islamic countires support Mein Kampf.
There is some arsehole historian spouting off that The Holocaust did not occur. He has visited Australia and spoken with at least one person who agreed with him but this does not mean that Australia or Christianity deny The Holocaust.

Robert


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## cuchuflete

I fully agree with the quote I posted earlier, from Dwight Eisenhower.  Book burning/banning is self-defeating and degrading to the citizens who would form their own opinions.

What do we know, or think we might know, from the original link?

A translation of Hitler's book was translated to Arabic, and put up for sale some half dozen years ago.   It enjoyed some relative commercial success for—a week or two?  a month or two?  We have no indication how long it was a best seller.

What do we *not* know?
-How many total copies were sold?

-What percentage of potential readers this represents?

-How many of those who bought the book read more than two pages?

-How many of those who bought it and read some or all of it agreed with what it says?

I would speculate that those who did buy it and read it and think about it fall into two groups:
a. Those who are perceptive enough to recognize that Hitler would have had them exterminated too, given the opportunity;
b. Those who are already convinced of the "inherent inferiority" of their opponent, and are happy to find additional support from whatever demented source.

In short, I don't see what all the fuss is about in terms of the sale of the book in primarily Islamic countries.

I am appalled that some supposedly enlightened European nations practice censorship/suppression of the book.  That is an insult to their citizens.  One does not eradicate history and causes by forbidding people an awareness of them.  That's the sort of thing Hitler's regime and other totalitarian states have practiced.


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## .   1

After reading some of the posts indicating what a shallow intellect it reveals I will join the chorus that suggests that Mein Kampf should be made more available to display what herr Hitler really was.

Robert


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## Victoria32

. said:


> I think that this is a very long bow to draw.
> All sorts of wackos spout endless nonsense in Australia. David Duke is a well known dribbler and I doubt if he would raise too many supportive column inches with a visit down under.
> Of course you are right that there must be some interest in David Duke if he can find even one other person to converse with in any given country.
> Of course you may be right that David Duke is a fan of Adolf Hitler.
> David Duke may well think that Mein Kampf is the equivalent of the bible.
> It is a long supposition to gell the above information and come to the conclusion that Islamic countires support Mein Kampf.
> There is some arsehole historian spouting off that The Holocaust did not occur. He has visited Australia and spoken with at least one person who agreed with him but this does not mean that Australia or Christianity deny The Holocaust.
> 
> Robert


Oh, yes, David Irving. He wanted to visit New Zealand at the same time, but was refused a visa. I think that was a mistake because it would have been better to have him here, let him speak and let people be fully aware of what a nutmeg he is!
Banning him only gives him reason to claim he is being censored and that therefore he must be right.

Vicky


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## gaer

Victoria32 said:


> Oh, yes, David Irving. He wanted to visit New Zealand at the same time, but was refused a visa. I think that was a mistake because it would have been better to have him here, let him speak and let people be fully aware of what a nutmeg he is!
> Banning him only gives him reason to claim he is being censored and that therefore he must be right.
> 
> Vicky


Making Mein Kampf readily available to anyone would undoubtedly "convert" some nut-cases, but I think the advantage of allowing sensible people to read the ravings of Hitler more than overbalances the negative.

As others have said, I TRIED to read the book. It was such nonsense that I could not get past the first few pages.

Gaer


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## Seana

*The Politics of the Past *


> source In Poland the initial print-run was 20,000 copies (a significant quantity there).


I don't know whether you agree with me or not but in my opinion we should rather try to tame the worse stuffs in the world making rather fun of them. So they would become then less exciting.
If they were still oppressed or taken too seriously, they would grow in strength. Human nature overcome all difficulties to reach forbidden fruit and it could be seem that all prohibited ideas are really 'great and important ideas'.

Do you ever hear about MEIN KAMPF - THE FARCE written by George Tabori, playwright, screenwriter, novelist, theatre director.
Tabori's farce explores the role of love and humour in Hitler's early life as a struggling artist. _Staatstheater Cottbus_ played this farse in German language and faced with well-disposed Polish public.
Polish directors produced this play as well. 
Unfortunately/fortunately I haven't read _Mein Kampf_ but I believe more over I am sure it must be written in very bad style because it was written by very bad style person.


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## ireney

Now that's the reason I am always sceptical when it comes to lists. 



> Turkey: Mein Kampf is a best seller. More than 50,000 copies have been purchased since the beginning of the year. The German state of Bavaria had previously attempted to prevent the publication.



Population:	   
70,413,958 (July 2006 est.)

Source


I know that doesn't look good for our neighbours' bibliophily but when it comes to Mein Kampf being a best seller things don't look bad at all


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## Genecks

I think Mein Kampf should not be banned. It should not be banned because it allows people to learn how a society or person can be controlled by another's ideologies. Allowing a person to understand social engineering can allow him or her to take more control of his or her own life. In other words, understanding how oneself is influenced by others allows more free will.

I recently watched American History X and heard of Mein Kampf. I've been meaning to read the book, but I have not the time. I read only a few pages, and I found some of it very interesting.

I've read a little bit of it, and I think people who read it would be interesting in Hitler's rhetoric. Adolf Hitler was quite the public speaker, and his writing style is of interest to me. I see a similaritiy between his rhetoric and the rhetoric of some other religious texts.


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## Outsider

Seana said:


> *The Politics of the Past *


Very interesting. So, the book is only banned _per se_ in Germany, France, and the Netherlands, but the German copyright owners have done their best to prevent its publication anywhere (not always successfully).


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## .   1

Seana said:


> I don't know whether you agree with me or not but in my opinion we should rather try to tame the worse stuffs in the world making rather fun of them. So they would become then less exciting.


Mel Brooks takes this view and I agree with both of you.  There is nothing that a bully fears more than derision and laughter which reveals the nothing behind the bluster.



Genecks said:


> Adolf Hitler was quite the public speaker, and his writing style is of interest to me. I see a similaritiy between his rhetoric and the rhetoric of some other religious texts.


This has chilled me everytine I see a snippit of a Hitler monologue.  Even the hand gestures are similar.  This should be pointed out more often.

Robert


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## Outsider

He was a formidable speaker. His speeches sound quite impressive. 
Even though apparently he wasn't much of a writer.


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## .   1

I could be wrong but I am of the opinion that Hitler's success as a public speaker was due to his ability to sway his audience with martial displays and strident music to whip the audience into a fervour.
He spoke only to the heavily converted and criticism was unthinkable.
It seemed to be an extremist religion in everything but name.

.,,


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## panjabigator

> *Turkey*: Mein Kampf is a best seller. More than 50,000 copies have been purchased since the beginning of the year. The German state of Bavaria had previously attempted to prevent the publication.



Wow...it hasn't even been a a week into the new year.  That's a frighteningly high number


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## Athaulf

Seana said:


> *The Politics of the Past *
> [...]*
> Croatia*: Publication has prevented by the state of Bavaria.
> [...]



That's completely false. A Croatian translation of _Mein Kampf_ was published several years ago, and last time I still lived there, it was widely available at bookstores and street stands. Here is a link to a Croatian online bookstore that's still selling it. Thus, I would be very suspicious about the other claims in the above article, too.

The publication of the above mentioned translation was a target of heated public criticism from many sides. However, even before that, I had seen English translations of _Mein Kampf_ sold in a fancy English-language bookstore in Zagreb, but curiously, nobody was making a fuss about those.


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## Seana

Athaulf said:
			
		

> That's completely false. A Croatian translation of _Mein Kampf_ was published several years ago, and last time I still lived there(...)


 
Of course are absolutely right, you live there. 
I don't intend to be an intercessor of this publication data but the title concerned rather a history  and sentence about Croatia didn't concern the ban on local but Bavarian authorities copyright owner- look on another source.
Recently Polish publisher was brought an action at law by German state of Bavaria, which owns the all rights to the book for infringement on its copyright.
Polish booksellers don't see anything wrong in sale of this book but they don't want to boast of having them on their bookcases.

BTW when somebody wants to learn history should read Adolf Hitler biography rather then 'Mein Kampf'. But it is only my opinion.


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## maxiogee

Seana said:


> *Turkey: Mein Kampf is a best seller. More than 50,000 copies have been purchased since the beginning of the year. *


*



ireney said:



			Population:	   
70,413,958 (July 2006 est.)
		
Click to expand...




panjabigator said:



			Wow...it hasn't even been a a week into the new year.  That's a frighteningly high number
		
Click to expand...


From the main body of the article which was linked to in Seana's post.

"Throughout 2005, more than 50,000 copies were sold in Turkey, pushing the book upwards on the best-seller list."

Later comes the other 50,000 reference - "Mein Kampf is a best seller. More than 50,000 copies have been purchased since the beginning of the year."
Now the article is from "(Global Journalist Magazine, Second Quarter 2006)" - this makes me wonder how the figures have soared from 50,000 in 2005 to 50,000 by the time an article on the second quarter of 2006 went to press.
I also note in passing that there have yet to be issues for the thrid or fourth quarters of 2006.
I also note that many of the links don't work - particularly the "forum", "about" and "contact/subscribe" in the 'masthead' and "subscriptions" along the left hand side. The "Latest Issue" link brings one to the 2005 Fourth Quarter".*


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## Abu Bishr

maxiogee said:


> I also note in passing that there have yet to be issues for the thrid or fourth quarters of 2006.
> I also note that many of the links don't work - particularly the "forum", "about" and "contact/subscribe" in the 'masthead' and "subscriptions" along the left hand side. The "Latest Issue" link brings one to the 2005 Fourth Quarter".


 
I think it is because they have come out with a new look, and maybe they are issuing monthly now. See this link. Their links are all working on the new look.


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## Cecilio

Seana said:


> BTW when somebody wants to learn history should read Adolf Hitler biography rather then 'Mein Kampf'. But it is only my opinion.



I agree. For example, Ian Kershaw's Biography of Hitler (in two volumes) is one of the most impressive books I've ever read.

Among other things, it puts "Mein Kampf" in its right context.


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## .   1

Seana said:


> BTW when somebody wants to learn history should read Adolf Hitler biography rather then 'Mein Kampf'. But it is only my opinion.


Is it possible that Mein Kampf is an autobiographical text and therefore a more accurate reflection of the mind of the author than any biographer's effort?

Robert


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## Chazzwozzer

Seana said:


> *Turkey*: Mein Kampf is a best seller. More than 50,000 copies have been purchased since the beginning of the year.


50,000 _original _copies...

There are much more people who buy pirate copies of books than the ones who buy originals. At least 6-7 friends of mine I can count now that bought and read pirate copies of Mein Kampf. Frankly, reading Mein Kampf was once a "cool thing to do" here in Turkey, really. Don't ask me why, but it was and I know it isn't how it looks like from outside. Of course, it's a shame for a nation that has always been Jewish-friendly to have the Mein Kampf best-selling.

About the question, well, I never had an interest in that book so I don't know what he exactly tells in his book, but still I don't think it's a right thing to ban any book in a democratic country.


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## maxiogee

Chazzwozzer said:


> There are much more people who buy pirate copies of books than the ones who buy originals. At least 6-7 friends of mine I can count now that bought and read pirate copies of Mein Kampf..



What's the price difference between a pirate and a non-pirate version of a book? 
What's the physical difference - how would I know that I was reading a pirate version?


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## Chazzwozzer

maxiogee said:


> What's the price difference between a pirate and a non-pirate version of a book?


At least 50%. For the majority of Turks, buying an original book is not a cheap bargain.



maxiogee said:


> What's the physical difference - how would I know that I was reading a pirate version?


Poor quality. Really poor. Pirate books are sold in the streets, well now it's not as popular as it used to be because of the recent laws on copyrighted works, but you can still find them if you ask a couple of people around.


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## ireney

Ah yes! I should have noted that: Turkey has no history of anti-semitism. I bet there are a few bigots of that kind in Turkey as there are in every part of the world but the words anti-semitism and Turkey can only be used in the same sentence if one is to say "Anti-semitism is not a problem in Turkey"


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## Seana

. said:
			
		

> Is it possible that Mein Kampf is an autobiographical text and therefore a more accurate reflection of the mind of the author than any biographer's effort?


 
Certainly this text will let us get to know his personalities, inquire into the characteristics of his mind, and make the assessment how far he was mentally ill. But all these analyses will be useful much more for the psychiatrists or for the psychologists rather than the historians. 
I think this text couldn't be quite objective for history. A knowledge of history is a knowledge of mere facts then a psychopathic vision of a deformed mind.

Seana


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## Siberia

Personally speaking, if you ban a book that is the best way to raise interest. I seem to remember the Victorian society banning Darwin's book and reading that almost all those who could buy the book did and read it!!!. Banning anything, like any form of censureship, creates a myth and a need to do something transgressive.


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## Kajjo

About time for a German comment, I guess.

Yes, _Mein Kampf_ is banned in Germany and almost no adult younger than 70 has read the book. This is only the top of the ice berg, though, since many opinions, discussions, words of the Nazi regime are still taboo. Germany has still to overcome the psychological consequences of the 3rd Reich -- even if this only applies to Germany as political entity, because individual Germans are usually very clear and healthy about these issues: It belongs to the past for most people if asked in private. But not so in public, where hypocrisy and political correctness is a must.

Personally, I think liberty is one of our highest values. No books should be banned, no opinions should be forbidden, no words should be a taboo. Good education, real democracy and actual freedom of speech would be better for Germany as it would be for any other country.

Kajjo


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## elroy

I guess a comment from a Palestinian resident of East Jerusalem wouldn't be too bad either.

I have never seen a copy of the book in Jerusalem or anywhere else in the Palestinian territories - or Arab Israel, for that matter.
I do not know anybody who owns the book or has read it.
I have never heard the book being mentioned there in any context whatsoever.
I have never spoken to anybody who *seriously *supports Hitler's ideology.  The only comments I have ever heard in even remote support of Hitler have been made in ironic hyperbole, as a cynical assessment of the terribly unlivable conditions that Palestinians face day in and day out.
You know what?  I don't even know what the Arabic translation of the title is.


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## Victoria32

elroy said:


> I guess a comment from a Palestinian resident of East Jerusalem wouldn't be too bad either.
> 
> I have never seen a copy of the book in Jerusalem or anywhere else in the Palestinian territories - or Arab Israel, for that matter.
> I do not know anybody who owns the book or has read it.
> I have never heard the book being mentioned there in any context whatsoever.
> I have never spoken to anybody who *seriously *supports Hitler's ideology. The only comments I have ever heard in even remote support of Hitler have been made in ironic hyperbole, as a cynical assessment of the terribly unlivable conditions that Palestinians face day in and day out.
> You know what? I don't even know what the Arabic translation of the title is.


Thank you Elroy, it is good to have aPalestinian view on this!  

Vicky


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