# Order of cases



## gaer

To all:

I have a question. Those of you who have studied German in Germany apparently order your cases this way:

nominative ([der] Nominativ)
genitive ([der] Genitiv)
dative ([der] Dativ)
accusative ([der] Akkusativ)

We were always taught in this order:

nominative
accusative
dative
genitive

To me this is far more logical, although in the end you get the same answers.

For me I think this:

case: masculine, neuter, feminine: plural
------
nominative: der, das, die: die
accusative: den, das, die: die
------
dative: dem, dem, der: den
genitive: des, des, der: der

In other words, there are strong similiarities between nominative and accusative, and strong similiarities between betwen dative and genitive.

Is there any logical reason for doing it the other way? Or is it just tradition and/or habit?

Gaer


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## elroy

gaer said:
			
		

> To all:
> 
> I have a question. Those of you who have studied German in Germany apparently order your cases this way:
> 
> nominative ([der] Nominativ)
> genitive ([der] Genitiv)
> dative ([der] Dativ)
> accusative ([der] Akkusativ)
> 
> We were always taught in this order:
> 
> nominative
> accusative
> dative
> genitive
> 
> To me this is far more logical, although in the end you get the same answers.
> 
> For me I think this:
> 
> case: masculine, neuter, feminine: plural
> ------
> nominative: der, das, die: die
> accusative: den, das, die: die
> ------
> dative: dem, dem, der: den
> genitive: des, des, der: der
> 
> In other words, there are strong similiarities between nominative and accusative, and strong similiarities between betwen dative and genitive.
> 
> Is there any logical reason for doing it the other way? Or is it just tradition and/or habit?
> 
> Gaer



I was also taught your way: N, A, D, and G; but I've seen the other way and have been equally intrigued by it.  I wonder if there is a logical reason...


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## gaer

elroy said:
			
		

> I was also taught your way: N, A, D, and G; but I've seen the other way and have been equally intrigued by it. I wonder if there is a logical reason...


I know in my own field, music, it's quite common to teach something in a highly illogical way and continue the same way merely because "that's the way it's always been done". But in music I feel perfectly confident in saying, "There's a better way. Trust me."

In this case, since I've never taught any language, I would not make the same assumption.

Regardless, I have long been aware that people are usually taught to use information one way but actually learn it (permanently) in another, usually without realizing that at some point they change they way they look at it.

Gaer


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## Jana337

The way N, G, D, A might be kind of established in "continental linguistics" because my native tongue, which is totally dissimilar to German in this respect, uses this order, too (in fact, we have three additional cases after the accusative).

Jana


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## gaer

Jana337 said:
			
		

> The way N, G, D, A might be kind of established in "continental linguistics" because my native tongue, which is totally dissimilar to German in this respect, uses this order, too (in fact, we have three additional cases after the accusative).
> 
> Jana


Hmm. I'm not sure what "continental linguistics" means. I just know that this way does not work for me. It's illogical, as I said.

In addition, the tradiational order of masculine, feminine and neuter is equally illogical, since so often what masculine and neuter nouns do is very similar. I'm talking about German only, of course.

But I want to start a thread about something that goes farther in making us look at things in a different way. This will make no difference for you or anyone else who already knows German, but think about this:

The word "der" is normally taught at the "masculine definite article". (We konw that this is only in nominative case, but students have NO idea what kind of "boomerang" they will be hit with!)

So what a shock it is to find out that in two out of four situations it's feminine. That's not actually 50% of the time because I don't think nouns end up in dative and gentive cases half the time, but I would wager that "der" may appear more often for feminine nouns than masculine, and when you add to that genitive plural, it really gets crazy. 

Gaer


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## Jana337

gaer said:
			
		

> Hmm. I'm not sure what "continental linguistics" means.



Nothing, I am afraid. I wanted to account for the peculiarity of English and this was a simple momentary idea. 

Jana


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## Jana337

It all boils down to Latin, as usual:

The six noun cases are:


nominative (used as the subject of the verb),
genitive (used to indicate relation or possession, often represented by the English _of_ or the addition of _'s_ to a word),
dative (used of the indirect object of the verb, often represented by the English _to_ or _for_),
accusative (used of the direct object of the verb),
vocative (used of the person or thing being addressed).
ablative (separation, source, cause, or instrument, often represented by the English _by_, _with_, _from_), 

Source

Jana


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## gaer

Jana337 said:
			
		

> Nothing, I am afraid. I wanted to account for the peculiarity of English and this was a simple momentary idea.
> 
> Jana


Oh? It made sense to me! I was thinking that nations close in proximity might share certain customs about the teaching of language. 

Gaer


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## Jana337

gaer said:
			
		

> Oh? It made sense to me! I was thinking that nations close in proximity might share certain customs about the teaching of language.
> 
> Gaer



Proximity matters but googling "continental linguistics" left me with a meagre 18 hits. 

Jana


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## gaer

Jana337 said:
			
		

> It all boils down to Latin, as usual:
> 
> The six noun cases are:
> 
> nominative (used as the subject of the verb),
> genitive (used to indicate relation or possession, often represented by the English _of_ or the addition of _'s_ to a word),
> dative (used of the indirect object of the verb, often represented by the English _to_ or _for_),
> accusative (used of the direct object of the verb),
> vocative (used of the person or thing being addressed).
> ablative (separation, source, cause, or instrument, often represented by the English _by_, _with_, _from_),
> Source
> 
> Jana


Well, I just read about "vocative", and I'd have to know a language that uses it to understand it.

But it appears to me that "ablative" seems to have been absorbed into dative in German, since "bei/von", "mit" and "von" are all considered dative prounouns. Yet I can definitely see a difference!

Gaer


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## Jana337

gaer said:
			
		

> Well, I just read about "vocative", and I'd have to know a language that uses it to understand it.



Ceasar famously said to Marcus Iunius Brutus: "_Et tu, Brute?_"

In many languages, the vocative case is built by changing the ending of the word. For example I am addressed like this: "Jano!".

Arabic (as well as Hebrew if I am not mistaken) use the exclamatory particle *ya* before the noun that is unchanged: "ya Jana!"

Jana


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## gaer

Jana337 said:
			
		

> Ceasar famously said to Marcus Iunius Brutus: "_Et tu, Brute?_"
> 
> In many languages, the vocative case is built by changing the ending of the word. For example I am addressed like this: "Jano!".
> 
> Arabic (as well as Hebrew if I am not mistaken) use the exclamatory particle *ya* before the noun that is unchanged: "ya Jana!"
> 
> Jana


Interesting!

Gaer


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> To all:
> 
> I have a question. Those of you who have studied German in Germany apparently order your cases this way:



Hehe, I'm a native, but when I was told how to use the cases at elementary school, I learned the following:

Nominativ (Wer-Fall)
Genitiv (Wessen-Fall)
Dativ (Wem-Fall)
Akkusativ (Wen-Fall)

And "der, das, die, die" is completely wrong, in my opinion, because we all know the song:

Wer, wie, was?
Der, die, das!
Wieso, weshalb, warum?
Wer nicht fragt, bleibt dumm!

And this is how I learned it: masculine, feminine, neuter, plural (and I need to know the correct order for Latin)


----------



## Whodunit

Jana337 said:
			
		

> It all boils down to Latin, as usual:
> 
> The six noun cases are:
> 
> 
> nominative (used as the subject of the verb),
> genitive (used to indicate relation or possession, often represented by the English _of_ or the addition of _'s_ to a word),
> dative (used of the indirect object of the verb, often represented by the English _to_ or _for_),
> accusative (used of the direct object of the verb),
> vocative (used of the person or thing being addressed).
> ablative (separation, source, cause, or instrument, often represented by the English _by_, _with_, _from_),
> 
> Source
> 
> Jana



I learned it in another way:


nominative (used as the subject of the verb),
genitive (used to indicate relation or possession, often represented by the English _of_ or the addition of _'s_ to a word),
dative (used of the indirect object of the verb, often represented by the English _to_ or _for_),
accusative (used of the direct object of the verb),
ablative (separation, source, cause, or instrument, often represented by the English _by_, _with_, _from_), 
vocative (used of the person or thing being addressed).


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## Whodunit

Jana337 said:
			
		

> Ceasar famously said to Marcus Iunius Brutus: "_Et tu, Brute?_"
> 
> In many languages, the vocative case is built by changing the ending of the word. For example I am addressed like this: "Jano!".
> 
> Arabic (as well as Hebrew if I am not mistaken) use the exclamatory particle *ya* before the noun that is unchanged: "ya Jana!"
> 
> Jana



That's correct. You're Jano? Good to know.    But the vocative has a special form in the regular u-declension "-e" instead of "-us" only.


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## Jana337

Whodunit said:
			
		

> That's correct. You're Jano? Good to know.



Normally I am Jana. But when you call me or when you tell me "Hello, Jana", it would be "Jano" in Czech.
FYI you would be "Danieli" but hardly anyone actually uses this name in vocative --> "Dane".

Jana


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## Whodunit

Jana337 said:
			
		

> Normally I am Jana. But when you call me or when you tell me "Hello, Jana", it would be "Jano" in Czech.
> FYI you would be "Danieli" but hardly anyone actually uses this name in vocative --> "Dane".
> 
> Jana



Ah great to know my Czech vocative name.


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## elroy

Jana337 said:
			
		

> Ceasar famously said to Marcus Iunius Brutus: "_Et tu, Brute?_"
> 
> In many languages, the vocative case is built by changing the ending of the word. For example I am addressed like this: "Jano!".
> 
> Arabic (as well as Hebrew if I am not mistaken) use the exclamatory particle *ya* before the noun that is unchanged: "ya Jana!"
> 
> Jana



That is correct.  Except that's very formal and hardly ever used in everyday speech so that I would simply be called "Elias" in Arabic.  Sometimes the "ya" is used for emphasis.

"Bas *ya Elias*, shu biddak tsawwi bil beit izza ma'ajeetesh ma'na?"
(Oh, but Elias, what are you going to do at home if you don't come with us? [somebody trying to convince me to go somewhere with him])

As far as I know Hebrew doesn't use ya.


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## elroy

Whodunit said:
			
		

> Ah great to know my Czech vocative name.



So it's supposed to be "Danieli" but people say "Dane"?


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## AndrewLivingston

Reflecting on the "order of cases", it seems to me that there is no "natural" way of presenting them.

In German education, it could very well be a vestige of classical pedagogy as relates to Latin.  I think in North America at least the cases are presented in a "logical" order of ease and use.

When the pupil in North America is taught the cases, they would never be taught a construction like

Das Auto meines Vaters ...

The logical presentation of the case system would dictate the following:

Das Haus ist grün.  (Nominative)

Der Hund beißt den Mann (Nominative and Accusative)

Der Student schickt seiner Mutter einen Brief (Nominative and accusative and dative)

Der Lehrer schickt den Eltern des Schüler einen Brief (finally, Nominative, accusative, dative, and genitive working happily in peaceful coexistence)

What has always confused me is the relative difficulty English speakers seem to have with the case system.  I found it extremey easy.  Learn the table, then learn the sense, then learn the nuance, go to Germany and forget all of that and just say "da", as it sounds right most places (Schmarrn!)


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## elroy

AndrewLivingston said:
			
		

> Der Lehrer schickt den Eltern des Schüler*s * einen Brief (finally, Nominative, accusative, dative, and genitive working happily in peaceful coexistence)



One TINY edit...


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## gaer

Whodunit said:
			
		

> Hehe, I'm a native, but when I was told how to use the cases at elementary school, I learned the following:
> 
> Nominativ (Wer-Fall)
> Genitiv (Wessen-Fall)
> Dativ (Wem-Fall)
> Akkusativ (Wen-Fall)
> 
> And "der, das, die, die" is completely wrong, in my opinion, because we all know the song:
> 
> Wer, wie, was?
> Der, die, das!
> Wieso, weshalb, warum?
> Wer nicht fragt, bleibt dumm!
> 
> And this is how I learned it: masculine, feminine, neuter, plural (and I need to know the correct order for Latin)


Interesting. You used jingles. 

I didn't learn any of these in school. When I finally went to school for a year, I already knew all of this and only needed to review it. That doesn't mean it was easy then, or that it is easy now. But I had to do it my way in order to get it into my head.

It really doesn't matter HOW we get something in our heads so long as we do it successfully.

I do think the German way would be very confusing and would not work well at all for people who speak English. 

Gaer


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## Jana337

elroy said:
			
		

> As far as I know Hebrew doesn't use ya.



YHWH or Yehova or Yahuwa all mean the very same  thing. "Ya" is a vocative and an exclamatory particle in both Hebrew and Arabic,  meaning Oh! 

Source

It has disappeared from the modern Hebrew, maybe?

Jana


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## Jana337

elroy said:
			
		

> So it's supposed to be "Danieli" but people say "Dane"?



It is supposed to be both of them. "Danieli" just sounds too official. The person who is addressed "Danieli" must invariably believe that he is going to be dressed down. I am slightly exagerating.
However, many Czech names are quite long (Miroslav, Jaroslav, Ladislav, Vladimír) and their bearers are referred to with their shorter versions that are widespread in all cases, not only in the vocative. The need for something shorter in the vocative is even stronger than elsewhere - you just need a certain swing in the word, which is hard to accomplish with three syllables that all 5 above mentioned names contain.

Jana


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## gaer

AndrewLivingston said:
			
		

> Reflecting on the "order of cases", it seems to me that there is no "natural" way of presenting them.
> 
> In German education, it could very well be a vestige of classical pedagogy as relates to Latin. I think in North America at least the cases are presented in a "logical" order of ease and use.


I agree.

I still asscociate nominative and accusative as being similar, dative and genitive as being similar, masculine and neuter as being similar, feminine and plural as being similar.

For instance, in three out of the four cases, the feminine and plural articles are the same. They differe only in dative case.

If you go here, you will see this site follows our logic exactly:

http://www.canoo.net/services/OnlineGrammar/Wort/Artikel/Artikelwort/Liste.html

And if you cliek on any of the articles, they are arranged as I suggested, masculine, neuter, femine, plural. 

Gaer


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## elroy

Jana337 said:
			
		

> YHWH or Yehova or Yahuwa all mean the very same  thing. "Ya" is a vocative and an exclamatory particle in both Hebrew and Arabic,  meaning Oh!
> 
> Source
> 
> It has disappeared from the modern Hebrew, maybe?
> 
> Jana



I am fairly certain it has.  In my entire life living in Israel, I have not heard anybody use it.  It's kind of like "Oh" - nobody uses that to address people anymore.  It's like you said; we want our vocative utterance to be as short as possible, so just like you shorten people's names we drop the "Oh" bzw. "ya."

(I had to say "bzw." there because there's no English equivalent! )


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## Whodunit

elroy said:
			
		

> I am fairly certain it has.  In my entire life living in Israel, I have not heard anybody use it.  It's kind of like "Oh" - nobody uses that to address people anymore.  It's like you said; we want our vocative utterance to be as short as possible, so just like you shorten people's names we drop the "Oh" bzw. "ya."
> 
> (I had to say "bzw." there because there's no English equivalent! )



Yes, there is is: "or", "and", "or rather", or "respectively.


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## Whodunit

elroy said:
			
		

> So it's supposed to be "Danieli" but people say "Dane"?



In German, we prefer as well saying "Dani" instead of "Daniel". It's even quite common to use the surname. Ask your fellows at the university.

To Jana: Now I became interested. How do you form the vocative in Czech? Always with -i or -e? If so, how would you form the vocative if someone's name ends with a vowel?


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## Whodunit

Jana337 said:
			
		

> (in fact, we have three additional cases after the accusative).



What's the third one called? I read Finish (Suomi) has 15 cases:



> Finnish has fifteen noun cases: four grammatical cases, six locative cases, two essive cases (three in some Eastern dialects) and three marginal cases. Please see the article Finnish language noun cases for details.



nominatiivi (nominative/Nominativ)
genetiivi (genitive/Genitiv)
akkusatiivi (accusative/Akkusativ)
partitiivi (partitive/Partitiv)
inessiivi (inessive/Inessiv)
elatiivi (elative/Elativ)
illatiivi (illative/Illativ)
adessiivi (adessive/Adessiv)
ablatiivi (ablative/Ablativ)
allatiivi (allative/Allativ)
essiivi (essive/Essiv)
eksessiivi (excessive/Exzessiv)
translatiivi (translative/Translativ)
instruktiivi (instructive/Instruktiv)
abessiivi (abessive/Abessiv)
komitatiivi (comitative/Komitativ)


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## Jana337

Whodunit said:
			
		

> What's the third one called?


 
1.nominativ 
2.genitiv 
3.dativ 
4.akuzativ 
5.vokativ 
6.lokál 
7.instrumentál 
 
Instrumentál entspricht ganz gut dem Ablativ, lokal erfordert eine Präposition und im Deutschen wird mit dem Dativ ausgedruckt.
 
Jana


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## Jana337

Whodunit said:
			
		

> In German, we prefer as well saying "Dani" instead of "Daniel". It's even quite common to use the surname. Ask your fellows at the university.
> 
> To Jana: Now I became interested. How do you form the vocative in Czech? Always with -i or -e? If so, how would you form the vocative if someone's name ends with a vowel?


 
It is foolish to look for rules in the Slavic languages.  

Jana - Jano (the rule seems to hold for all female names ending with -a)
Roman - Romane
Lukáš - Lukáši
Honza (a male name, like Hans) - Honzo
pan Novák (Mr. Novák) - pane Nováku
paní Nováková - paní Nováková
pan Nový (Mr. Nový) - pane Nový
pan prezident - pane prezidente
.
.
.

Jana


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## Whodunit

Jana337 said:
			
		

> 1.nominativ
> 2.genitiv
> 3.dativ
> 4.akuzativ
> 5.vokativ
> 6.lokál
> 7.instrumentál
> 
> Instrumentál entspricht ganz gut dem Ablativ, lokal erfordert eine Präposition und im Deutschen wird mit dem Dativ ausgedruckt.
> 
> Jana



Es gibt übrigens im Lateinischen noch mehr als 13 Fälle, um genau zu sein: Der Ablativ lässt sich in 10 weitere Klassen einteilen:   

1. ablativus loci (Ortsangabe)
2. ablativus temporis (Zeitangabe)
3. ablativus causae (Ursache)
4. ablativus sociativus (Gemeinschaft)
5. ablativus instrumenti (Mittel)
6. ablativus modi (Art und Weise)
7. ablativus seperativus (Trennung)
8. ablativus qualitatis (Eigenschaft)
9. ablativus comparationis (Vergleich)
10. ablativus mensurae (Steigerung)
11. ablativus limitationis (Einschränkung)
12. ablativus originis (Herkunft)
13. ablativus auctoris (dem Subjekt zufolge)


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## Whodunit

Jana337 said:
			
		

> It is foolish to look for rules in the Slavic languages.
> 
> Jana - Jano (the rule seems to hold for all female names ending with -a)
> Roman - Romane
> Lukáš - Lukáši
> Honza (a male name, like Hans) - Honzo
> pan Novák (Mr. Novák) - pane Nováku
> paní Nováková - paní Nováková
> pan Nový (Mr. Nový) - pane Nový
> pan prezident - pane prezidente
> .
> .
> .
> 
> Jana



Ah ok, thank you very much.


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## elroy

Whodunit said:
			
		

> Yes, there is is: "or", "and", "or rather", or "respectively.



There's not one word that captures all the meanings that "beziehungsweise" single-handedly does.


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## Whodunit

elroy said:
			
		

> There's not one word that captures all the meanings that "beziehungsweise" single-handedly does.



What would you have said if you didn't know German?


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## gaer

Elroy said:
			
		

> I am fairly certain it has. In my entire life living in Israel, I have not heard anybody use it. It's kind of like "Oh" - nobody uses that to address people anymore. It's like you said; we want our vocative utterance to be as short as possible, so just like you shorten people's names we drop the "Oh" bzw. "ya."


In this case I have the same question as Who. I agree that there is no one translation for "bzw.", but I wonder what you are driving at above. Make lack of knowledge of the subject may make your answer impossible to understand in any language though. 

Gaer


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> In this case I have the same question as Who. I agree that there is no one translation for "bzw.", but I wonder what you are driving at above. Make lack of knowledge of the subject may make your answer impossible to understand in any language though.
> 
> Gaer



But how would you say "bzw." in this case in English, if you've never heard about that German word we're talking about?


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## elroy

Whodunit said:
			
		

> What would you have said if you didn't know German?


 
I would say "or" but that doesn't have the same power and flair as "bzw."


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## elroy

gaer said:
			
		

> In this case I have the same question as Who. I agree that there is no one translation for "bzw.", but I wonder what you are driving at above. Make lack of knowledge of the subject may make your answer  impossible to understand in any language though.
> 
> Gaer



There must be a typo somewhere; I don't understand what you're trying to say.


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## Whodunit

elroy said:
			
		

> I would say "or" but that doesn't have the same power and flair as "bzw."



Okay, good to know. Thanks anyway.


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## elroy

Whodunit said:
			
		

> Okay, good to know. Thanks anyway.



You're welcome.  By the way: bzw. is one of the most difficult words for learners of German to master!


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## Whodunit

elroy said:
			
		

> You're welcome.  By the way: bzw. is one of the most difficult words for learners of German to master!



Well, do you mean the pronuciation?


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## elroy

Whodunit said:
			
		

> Well, do you mean the pronuciation?



No, the meaning(s).


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## gaer

elroy said:
			
		

> There must be a typo somewhere; I don't understand what you're trying to say.


_In this case I have the same question as Who. I agree that there is no one translation for "bzw.", but I wonder what you are driving at above. *Maybe my* lack of knowledge of the subject may make your answer impossible to understand in any language though._

That is POSSIBLY what I was thinking, Elroy. I was apparently typing too fast and thinking too slowly. I probably attempted to edit my sentence. I meant to say that what you and Who were talking about was so over my head, my question may have been impossible to answer. Sorry.

Gaer


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## MrMagoo

I usually translate 'beziehungsweise' with "alternatively", "or rather".

These expressions usually work pretty fine for bzw.. They do not _always_ cover the exact meaning, but they are quite close though.


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## gaer

MrMagoo said:
			
		

> I usually translate 'beziehungsweise' with "alternatively", "or rather".
> 
> These expressions usually work pretty fine for bzw.. They do not _always_ cover the exact meaning, but they are quite close though.


You might want to check out this link:

http://dict.leo.org/?lp=ende&lang=de&searchLoc=0&cmpType=relaxed&relink=on&sectHdr=on&spellToler=std&search=beziehungsweise

If you move towards the bottom of the page, you will see that some intelligent people have puzzled over how to translate this word.

If you read German and English fluently, you will know how to translate it according to context, but it's NOT an easy word to define in English. 

Gaer


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## elroy

gaer said:
			
		

> _In this case I have the same question as Who. I agree that there is no one translation for "bzw.", but I wonder what you are driving at above. *Maybe my* lack of knowledge of the subject may make your answer impossible to understand in any language though._
> 
> That is POSSIBLY what I was thinking, Elroy. I was apparently typing too fast and thinking too slowly. I probably attempted to edit my sentence. I meant to say that what you and Who were talking about was so over my head, my question may have been impossible to answer. Sorry.
> 
> Gaer



Ok, no problem.  Do you know what "bzw." (abbreviation for "beziehungsweise") means?


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## elroy

MrMagoo said:
			
		

> I usually translate 'beziehungsweise' with "alternatively", "or rather".
> 
> These expressions usually work pretty fine for bzw.. They do not _always_ cover the exact meaning, but they are quite close though.



No, they don't.  It has so many meanings that I only now know how to use it from seeing it in context.  I looked it up in so many dictionaries - all in vain - back when I was trying to nail down one meaning for it.  It just depends on the situation; that is, there are many situations in which "alternatively" or "rather" wouldn't work.  For example:

(speaking to a group of children from Germany and France):

Ihr werdet nächste Woche nach Hause fahren, das heißt, nach Deutschland bzw. Frankreich.

I would translate this as "You're all going home next weekend, that is to Germany *or * to France."  

Mein Bruder und meine Schwester haben ein Eis bzw. einen Kuchen bestellt.

My brother and my sister ordered ice cream and pie, *respectively*.

So you see it depends on the context.  I think it's a lovely word that I wish existed in other languages!


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## elroy

gaer said:
			
		

> You might want to check out this link:
> 
> http://dict.leo.org/?lp=ende&lang=de&searchLoc=0&cmpType=relaxed&relink=on&sectHdr=on&spellToler=std&search=beziehungsweise
> 
> If you move towards the bottom of the page, you will see that some intelligent people have puzzled over how to translate this word.
> 
> If you read German and English fluently, you will know how to translate it according to context, but it's NOT an easy word to define in English.
> 
> Gaer



Exactly.  I couldn't have put it in better words.


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