# identifying the subject and the object



## josefa68

Hi
Please please help - I've struggled for 6 hours on two exercises that should take ten minutes! I understand fully the principle of qui replaceing the subject of the verb and que replacing the direct objext - but I just CAN'T identify the subjects and objects, even when I translate into English!

eg
Je prends cet object pour me laver les les dents. - turn it around
C'est un objet Que/Qui je prends pour me laver les dents.

Cet objet sert a boire du cafe et du the et il souvent en porcelaine. - 
C'est un objet que/qui sert a boire du cafe et que/qui il souvent en porcelaine.

please, is there any simple way of working it out? I'm on an intensive class in Lyon and fear I won't progress til I can get this sussed!

THANKS in advance


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## Maître Capello

To get the answer, look at the verb of the subordinate clause and try to figure out both its subject and object. If you find an object but no obvious subject, the subject is _qui_. Likewise, if you can find a subject but no obvious object, the object is _que_…


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## Outsider

I think your difficulty might be in identifying the verb which combines with _que_ and _qui_. Does it help if I point it out for you?

It's *an object that I hold* to brush my teeth.

It's *an object that is used* to drink coffee or tea, and is often in porcelain.​Now ask yourself, who holds and what is held, what is used and who uses it?...


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## josefa68

Thanks for the advice. I tried to do that before and went round in circles!
I am the subject in the first one, the teeth are the object as they are receiving the action of brushing - so qui?

In the second one - this is my problem! I STILL don't know!
The object is being used so it's the subject? qui? but it's the object of the verb in the second bit??? so que??? ughhh.

C'est un objet qu'est en metal et qui permet de cuire des aliments?
C'est un objet qu'est en coton et qui j'utilise apres la douche?
C'est un objet qu'est tres pratique pour se coiffeur?

aagghh! (I'm much older than all my fellow students and having a brain block on this is really annoying me!)


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## Outsider

josefa68 said:


> I am the subject in the first one, the teeth are the object as they are receiving the action of brushing - so qui?


Not the teeth -- the toothbrush! (The "object" that is held, according to the sentence.)



josefa68 said:


> In the second one - this is my problem! I STILL don't know!
> The object is being used so it's the subject? qui? but it's the object of the verb in the second bit??? so que??? ughhh.


The second is indeed a little trickier, because it's in the passive voice. With this in mind, give it another try.


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## Maître Capello

josefa68 said:


> Thanks for the advice. I tried to do that before and went round in circles!
> I am the subject in the first one, the teeth are the object as they are receiving the action of brushing - so qui?


Err, no… Since it is *receiving* the action, it has to be the *object*. So you must use _que_ in this case.


> C'est un objet qu' qui est en métal et qui permet de cuire des aliments?


The verb of the 1st subordinate clause is _être_. Its *subject* is _un objet_ (_un objet est en métal_). Therefore the relative pronoun is _*qui*_.

Regarding the 2nd subordinate clause, the verb is _permettre_ and its *subject* is still _un objet_ (_un objet permet de cuire des aliments_). So you also need to use the relative pronoun _*qui*_.


> C'est un objet qu' qui est en coton et qui que j'utilise après la douche?


For the 2nd subordinate clause, the verb is _utiliser_, its subject is _je_ (_j'_) and its *object* is _un objet_ (_j'utilise un objet après la douche_). Therefore in this case you need the relative pronoun *que*.


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## josefa68

Thanks both - after a total of about 7 hours on this (I got it in class, then got home and went loopy and have now made it far more complicated than it needs to be, I think), I am going to take a break and re-look at it over the weekend. THANK you for explaining it - there really aren't any short cuts are there - you need to know what to do? (Ie there isn't a set of "rules" you can remember - you really need to understand the sentence and apply the logic. Sigh... I don't know why this has become a problem for me. I need English lessons, not French! 

Just discovered this forum and can see I might be on here during the coming months!

Thanks  - very much appreciated.


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## Tim~!

The subject does some action to the object.

I brush my teeth.

The dog chases the cat. The cat is being chasedby the dog. (This last one is in the passive voice, where we express that something 'is done to' something else 'by' the subject, even though the word order is not the same.)

So working out which is the subject and which is the object is not complicated. You are even helped out because in some cases the words change depending on whether it's being used as a subject or object.

For example, we say "I love him", where I is the subject and him the object. When we change meanings though we don't just change the word order; we can't write "Him love I". We use different forms; "He loves me."

I'll write a little more tomorrow if you like, but I'd prefer to be sure that you're on the right track now. Do you understand what I've written so far?

Would you be able to identify the subjects and objects in the following sentences?

A third of the population of Europe was killed by the plague.
Les chiens mordent les chats.
Je me suis cassé le bras hier.
If you can, you're one step away from being able to choose whether you need 'que' (which tells you the object) or 'qui' (which you use to identify the subject).

Edit: Per suggestion from Outsider, maybe you could replace the third example with "Je me suis lavé les mains".


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## josefa68

Hi there
Something you said clicked there as my teacher was pointing out the verb endings but I didn't really understand what she was saying (in French of course!)


Les chiens mordent les chats.  les chiens subject, les chats object
Je me suis cassé le bras hier. Je subject, le bras object
A third of the population of Europewas killed by the plague - plague subject, population object (they were killed by the plague?)
In those example I _think _I've got it - it's the ones I posted where I have trouble. 
subject verb object
It’s an object that I use to clean my teeth
It’s an object that is very practical for brushing one’s hair     STUCK
It’s an object that is made of cotton and that I use after my shower ??no object 
It’s an object that is made of metal and that allows cooking offood
It’s an object that enables drinking of tea or coffee and that’s often made of porcelain.
aagghhh I've confused myself again. no objects. 
Help!
I don't know why this is so hard?! Am i the only one who has a problem with this?! Mind you it's only my 2nd week...
 
THANKS for the support and help


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## Outsider

josefa68 said:


> Les chiens mordent les chats.  les chiens subject, les chats object
> Je me suis cassé le bras hier. Je subject, le bras object
> A third of the population of Europewas killed by the plague - plague subject, population object (they were killed by the plague?)
> In those example I _think _I've got it - it's the ones I posted where I have trouble.


In the two latter examples you're not quite there yet, for slightly technical reasons which we need not dwell in (I hope).


In _Je me suis cassé le bras_, the object is actually _me_. _Le bras_ is a separate complement. (At least, in French grammar.) (*)

In the sentence _A third of the population of Europe was killed by the plague_, you are correct that "a third of the population of Europe" is the subject, but "the plague" is not an object of the verb. It's another complement. The passive voice is always analysed this way.
(*) I was wrong on the first account. See Fred C's post below.


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## Fred_C

Outsider said:


> In the two latter examples you're not quite there yet, for slightly technical reasons which we need not dwell in (I hope).
> 
> * In Je me suis cassé le bras, the object is actually me. Le bras is a separate complement. (At least, in French grammar.)



No, no, no. Josefa was right. The object is "le bras". The second complement is "me".


In "A third of the population of Europewas killed by the plague", the subject is "a third of the population", and not the plague.
Let me explain : if the sentence was "the plague killed a third of the population", then the subject would be "the plague", because the subject is always the one that operates the action stated by the verb. Here, "the plague" operates the action of killing.

But in the sentence "a third of the population was killed by the plague", the action is not "to kill", it is "to be killed". And the entity that makes the action of being killed is "a third of the population". there is no object. The plague is another complement.


Josepha :
You must pay attention in identifying words, not things, for example, you said that the subject was "population", because you thought of the population as a thing. But grammar does not pay attention to things, it pays attention to words instead. the subject is "a third of the population".

For your qui and que questions, you must be interested only in the relative clause, I mean : in the sentence "It is an object that is made of cotton and that I use to brush my teeth", if you want to find the function of the "that", you must be concern only about the relative clause : "that I use". Because "It is an object" is another clause and "to brush my teeth" a third one.

Now it must be easier : in "that I use", you already named the subject : "I". the verb is "use", so "that" has got to be the object. therefore it translates as "que".

Let us make another one : 
"It is an object that enables drinking of tea or coffee and that is often made of porcelain".

Let us identify the clauses : there are three of them :
It is an object
That enables drinking of tea or coffee
that is often made of porcelain

we are only concerned about the second and the third ones.
In the second one : the verb is "enables", the object is "drinking of tea or coffee", and the subject is of course "that", therefore, it translates as "qui".

In the third one, the verb is "is made", (be careful, the meaning is passive)
"of porcelain" is not a subject, it is not an object neither, it is another complement.
The subject is "that". If it is not clear, remember that the subject is the word that conjugates the verb, and that there cannot be a verb without a subject.


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## janpol

J'ai lu avec intérêt tout ce qui a été écrit sur le sujet et le Cod pour aider Josefa. Je trouve la définition  du sujet qui a été donnée à la fois trop longue et trop courte : trop longue parce que le sujet ne fait pas forcément supporter l'action par un complément (il dort), trop courte car elle oublie les verbes d'état.
Par ailleurs, je trouve que c'est aller un peu vite en besogne que d'introduire déjà des pronominaux (surtout avec un  COD : cf "le bras") et des passifs car le complément d'agent vient compliquer les choses... 
En ce qui concerne l'exercice qui consiste à utilier "qui" et "que", je pense que, dans un premier temps, il peut être utile de passer (sans s'y attarder)  par la répétition que l'on va supprimer car cela peut permettre d'identifier plus facilement le sujet et le COD :
C'est un objet, cet objet sert à boire du café = c'est un objet qui...
C'est un objet, j'utilise cet objet pour me laver les dents = c'est un objet que...
(Cela conduit certes à des phrases qui ne semblent pas très naturelles, pourtant, on peut imaginer une situation dans laquelle elles pourraient être dites : un jeu de devinettes proposé à des enfants : il s'agirait de faire deviner le nom d'un objet à propos duquel des indices seraient successivement donnés = "c'est un objet, cet objet sert à... cet objet coûte cher... j'utilise cet objet pour..." )


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## Forero

Welcome to the forum, josefa68.

If the pronoun can be left out in English, that's _que_ (or _qu'_).  The one that cannot be omitted is _qui_:

It’s an object I use to clean my teeth.  [omittable _that_ = _que_ / _qu'_.]
It’s an object *that* is very practical for brushing one’s hair.  [pronoun that cannot be omitted = _qui_.]


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## Fred_C

Forero said:


> Welcome to the forum, josefa68.
> 
> If the pronoun can be left out in English, that's _que_ (or _qu'_).  The one that cannot be omitted is _qui_:
> 
> It’s an object I use to clean my teeth.  [omittable _that_ = _que_ / _qu'_.]
> It’s an object *that* is very practical for brushing one’s hair.  [pronoun that cannot be omitted = _qui_.]



55 thumbs up !!


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## josefa68

Thanks all - I'm trying to digest it and all of this advice in English is extremely helpful.


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