# pax et vobiscum



## infinite sadness

Como se reconstruye la gramatica de la frase "pax et vobiscum"?


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## Patry-Patry

Hola infinite sadness, di latin en la escuela no me acuerdo de mucho, a qué te refieres con reconstruir la gramatica de la frase? por curiosidad


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## Starfrown

_Pax _-- noun feminine nominative singular _"Peace"_
_et_ (_etiam_) -- adverb _"also"_
_vobiscum _-- ablative of the second person plural pronoun _vos "you (all)"_ + preposition _cum "with" = "with you (all)" _(cum normally precedes its object but is attached to the end of personal pronouns)

I'm not sure whether this is exactly what you're looking for.


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## infinite sadness

Thankyou.
I wondered why the verb was absent.
Besides, I thought "et" as "and". Now, with "also", that one makes some more sense to me.


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## Kevin Beach

"Pax vobiscum" is usually seen without the "et".

It is a greeting by the priest in the Catholic Latin Mass, meaning "Peace (be) with you".

The congregation's reply is "Et cum spiritu tuo" - "And with thy spirit".


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## loco44

Kevin Beach said:


> "Pax vobiscum" is usually seen without the "et".
> 
> It is a greeting by the priest in the Catholic Latin Mass, meaning "Peace (be) with you".
> 
> The congregation's reply is "Et cum spiritu tuo" - "And with thy spirit".



In Catholic Latin Mass it's: _Dominus Vobiscum_ (God (be) with you all.
Still I think that you are correct: we should read _Pax Vobiscum_ (w/o _et_)


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## brian

Well there are different parts of the Mass, some that say _Dominus vobiscum_ ("the Lord [be] with you"), and some _Pax vobis(cum)_ ("peace [be] with you"), and then there's _Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum_ ("[May] the peace of the Lord be with you always").


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## Danilo82

In a pontifical mass, the *bishop* says tthe greeting: *Pax vobiscum*, in a mass celebrated by a *priest* he always says *Dominus vobiscum*.

At least that is in the Tridentine mass, the one always celebrated in Latin.


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## Pinairun

From a Roman Missal dating *before Vatican II:*

Beginning (offertory) the priest said:
*Dominus vobiscum.*
After peace prayer:
*Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.*
When mass was pontifical, the bishop said to deacon:
*Pax tecum*
After ablution:
*Dominus vobiscum*
At the end:
*Dominus vobiscum*
*Ite, missa est*.


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## brian

That has to be *Pax Domini sit sempre vobiscum.*


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## Pinairun

brian8733 said:


> That has to be *Pax Domini sit sempre vobiscum.*


 

Yes, Domini, you're quite right! Excuse my "lapsus (?)", please


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## Danilo82

My mistake:
The first greeting in a *pontifical mass* is: *pax vobis (peace be to you),* used instead of Dominus vobiscum (the first greeting is after the gloria).
*Pax tecum* is said also from the priest to the deacon in a High solemn mass.

It's interesting that the verb is absent in some forms, but not in the longer one.


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## Philo2009

As a number of contributors have already noted _*pax et vobiscum_ is nonsense.

_Pax vobiscum_ is an ellipsis of _pax *sit* vobiscum_ (Peace BE with you).


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## brian

_Pax et vobiscum_ is not nonsense at all.  That's the whole point of ellpsis: you can leave it out and it still makes perfect sense.

Would you ever tell anyone that in English questions like "Going to the store?" are nonsense because they are missing a subject ("you") and auxiliary verb ("are")?


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## Philo2009

brian8733 said:


> _Pax et vobiscum_ is not nonsense at all.  That's the whole point of ellpsis: you can leave it out and it still makes perfect sense.


 
And of what, pray, would 'pax ET vobiscum' (?_peace AND with you_) be an ellipsis??


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## brian

It would be an ellipsis of _Pax et vobiscum sit._

In this context "et" does not mean "and"; it means "also, too."


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## Philo2009

Sorry, but I would need some convincing that 'et' can ever be anything but a conjunction, which would still make 'pax et vobiscum' meaningless (even as an ellipsis). 'Etiam' is indeed an adverb, but, again, I've never once come across its appearing in abbreviated form as 'et'. 

Maybe I've been reading the wrong kind of Latin! Perhaps you'd be good enough to cite an instance or two of this adverbial use of 'et' in the writings of an established Latin author?


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## biscortina

Regarding to the adverbial use of "et", I can think of the followings right now:
"Timeo Danaos* et *dona ferentes." (also wenn...)or the famous: "*Et* tu, Brute?"(also, too) As brian8733 wrote, it really means "Pax et vobiscum sit!"(ellipsis!).


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## brian

Yes, the one I always cite is Vergil's _Timeo Danaos *et* dona ferentes_ = _I fear the Greeks *even* bearing gifts._

_Et_ really has lots of meanings: _and, also, _and _even_ are the main ones, I'd say.

Edit: Just found that there is a Wikipedia article on that line, which says:



> It is a common mistake to translate this literally as "I fear Greeks and bearing gifts," as "et" means "and" in Latin. However, in this case, "et" comes from a contraction of the word "etiam" meaning "even".



And then Perseus has this to say in definition H:



> To connect an idea as either homogeneous or complementary to that which precedes, _and so too_, _and also_, _and moreover_, _and at the same time; too_, _also_, _likewise_ (hence, often in Liv., Curt., and late Lat., rarely in Cic., = *etiam*


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## loco44

Italian Wikipedia reports that both translations are correct.
More, the second one (_I fear the Greeks *and* the gift they're bearing)_ is stressing the double danger in accepting something given without any reason *and* expecially from declared enemies.
Still the first one is more accepted as the literal translation.


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## brian

The Italian one looks like the only one that concedes that it may be okay/understandable to translate _et_ as _and_:



> Alla diffusa traduzione _"Temo i greci anche quando portano doni"_, alcuni preferiscono una traduzione non letterale _"Temo i greci *e* i doni che portano"_, a significare il doppio pericolo nell'accettare qualcosa regalato senza apparente motivo e per di più da nemici dichiarati.
> Una traduzione più letterale potrebbe essere _"Temo i greci anche portando essi (dei) doni"_.


Interestingly, however, they consider the translation with Italian _e_ ("and") to be the *non*-literal translation, i.e. they say the more literal translation is *with* _et = anche_ ("also, even").

The German version agrees, using _auch_ ("also, even") and not mentioning any possibility of using _und_ ("and"); the Dutch version uses _ook_ ("also, even") and concedes that it's possible to interpret _et_ as _en_ ("and") but mentions that in this case it's an abbreviation of _etiam_. (There's also a Russian one, but I can't read Russian.)

Anyway, I think it's safe to say that the general consensus, and the safest translation, is that _et = also, even_.


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## loco44

I agree with brian8733, although very often translations are slightly changing from language to language. For istance, the 3 italian translations reported, in English should read:

1) _I fear the Greaks also when they bear gifts_ (more accepted in italian) 
2) _I fear the Greaks and the gifts they bear_ (non-literal)
2) _I fear the Greaks even (them) bearing (some) gifts_ (more literal)

Finally, for what this sentence is concerned, most recent and accredited editions of the text, instead of _ferentes_, are reporting _ferentis_, ending in _-is_ (plural accusative) widespread in the classic (ancient) Latin.


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## brian

Yes, _et _can mean all three--_even, also (too), _and _and_. Luckily (I guess) for Italian, _anche_ can mean both _even_ and _also_, so assuming _et_ is a shortened form of _etiam_ (thus ruling out the "and" meaning), you can simply say _et = anche_. In English it's not so easy since you have to choose between _also_ and _even_, and it's not 100% clear what the intended meaning is in Latin (maybe both?!).

[Off-topic: I memerized the line years ago with _ferent*is*_.]


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## Philo2009

Most interesting! Thank you for the citations.

A new use (to me) of a very familiar word.


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## berndf

brian8733 said:


> Yes, the one I always cite is Vergil's _Timeo Danaos *et* dona ferentes_ = _I fear the Greeks *even* bearing gifts._
> 
> _Et_ really has lots of meanings: _and, also, _and _even_ are the main ones, I'd say.


To some extend _and=even_ works in modern langauages too. If you understand the imperative _dona_ (which seems a bit out of place here) as having a jussive meaning you could translate it as follows: _I fear the Greek and may he bear gifts_.


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