# のではないか or のではない



## Shenrais

I've been seeing and reading about this a lot yet I am still not sure how to use this grammatically.  Was hoping I could get some clarification as to when it's mostly used. I especially see this used a lot with でしょう. It seems like there's very little tangible information about this out there so it's hard to figure out.


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## karlalou

> ～のではない（でしょう・だろう）か
> ～のではない（でしょう・だろう）


（でしょう・だろう are just style change. です→でしょう、だ→だろう。Both are similar to 'would'.）

～のではない is simply negating something said right before the の.
～のではないか is added with the questioning particle か, showing the speaker's feeling of doubt or wonder.

魚を切るときは包丁を押すものではない is saying "It's not the thing to do that you push the knife when you slice a fish".
魚を切るときは包丁を引くものではないか is saying "It's the thing to do that you pull the knife when you slice a fish, isn't it"?


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## Shenrais

Thanks for your reply

I can sort of understand it in this light. But for example when I see something like

1. 最近、日本語のできる外国人も増えているのではないでしょう。

or 2.先生はこの学校で教えているのではありません。 

They both seem awkward if it's just saying what's before の isn't the case. And, if number 2 is just (The teacher does not teach at this school) Wouldn't ていない be the same? Number 1 just doesn't seem right here either

Maybe I'm just confused.


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## karlalou

Shenrais said:


> 1. 最近、日本語のできる外国人も増えているのではないでしょう。
> 
> or 2.先生はこの学校で教えているのではありません。
> 
> They both seem awkward if it's just saying what's before の isn't the case.


I am not really getting what is bothering you, but if this helps you..
With the right context, both 1 and 2 are possible, but because I don't know the context, I want か at the end of 1, and with か, it turns up to be an affirmative sentence with an more accessible tone, like when, I think, you say something with 'would'.

2 as it is sounds like telling someone that this is not the school where the teacher is teaching. If か is added at the end of the sentence, it will become a question to someone including the teacher, asking if it's correct that the teacher is teaching at this school, or also sounds like a reminder saying "You are teaching at this school, aren't you".


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## Shenrais

Sorry, they are both just random examples on the internet which I found. No real context to be found.

I guess what I can ask is if I said 先生はこの学校で教えていない。 What would be the difference between this and 先生はこの学校で教えているのではありません。 

I checked the translation of the first sentence which is "I think the number of foreigners who can speak Japanese has increased recently." Which is what confused me here because のではない is supposed to invalidate the sentence before it.

Am I making sense?


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## Flaminius

先生はこの学校で教えていない is wrong.  One way of correctly negating the sentence 先生はこの学校で教えている is:
先生はこの学校でいるのではない。

You can apply honorific devices to derive:
先生はこの学校で教えているのではありません。

The _-no_ immediately after _iru_ extends the scope of negation to mean:
¬[The teacher has a class in this school]

The negation has to include "in this school" to make a meaningful statement.

Without it, _-nai_ just negates the verb that it is immediately attatched to.


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## karlalou

Shenrais said:


> I guess what I can ask is if I said 先生はこの学校で教えていない。 What would be the difference between this and 先生はこの学校で教えているのではありません。


先生はこの学校で教えていない[or 教えていません] simply negates the fact. It just feels a little too bare or maybe abrupt to a native's ear that adding some particles will make it more natural.

先生はこの学校で教えているのではありません is saying either it's not this school, but somewhere else, or not teaching, but doing something else at this school. It needs context to know which it really means.

If you add *は* to the former, it'll mean the same as the latter:
先生はこの学校で*は*教えていません。
or
先生はこの学校で教えて*は*いません。
Again, we need context to know what way they really negate.



Shenrais said:


> Shenrais said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1. 最近、日本語のできる外国人も増えているのではないでしょう。
> 
> 
> 
> I checked the translation of the first sentence which is "I think the number of foreigners who can speak Japanese has increased recently." Which is what confused me here because のではない is supposed to invalidate the sentence before it.
Click to expand...

Sure, it is because the translation is wrong. Or the original is lacking か at the end.


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## Flaminius

karlalou said:


> 先生はこの学校で教えていない[or 教えていません] simply negates the fact. It just feels a little too bare or maybe abrupt to a native's ear that adding some particles will make it more natural.


It does not properly translate into "The teacher does not teach in this school" with the entailment that he does teach somewhere else.  The defect of this sentence is not just a lack of naturalness.  If one is forced to interpret this sentence, one natural entailment is that he does not teach in this school but does something else (such as running it or cleaning the rooms).



> 先生はこの学校で教えているのではありません is saying either it's not this school, but somewhere else, or not teaching, but doing something else at this school. It needs context to know which it really means.


I think you need 先生はこの学校では教えているのではありません to hint at other activities he does in this school.  Even then, you cannot eradicate the entailment that he teaches somewhere else.




> If you add *は* to the former, it'll mean the same as the latter:
> 先生はこの学校で*は*教えていません。
> or
> 先生はこの学校で教えて*は*いません。
> Again, we need context to know what way they really negate.


You don't need context to establish what is negated.  It negates the proposition that he teaches AND (while he does so) he is in this school.  Context is necessary to find what he does, not what he doesn't.


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## Flaminius

Flaminius said:


> 先生はこの学校で教えていない is wrong. One way of correctly negating the sentence 先生はこの学校で教えている is:
> 先生はこの学校でいるのではない。


I made a terrible mistake a few posts back.
One way of correctly negating the sentence 先生はこの学校で教えている is:
先生はこの学校で*教えて*いるのではない。


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## frequency

Shenrais said:


> 1. 最近、日本語のできる外国人も増えているのではないでしょう。
> or 2.先生はこの学校で教えているのではありません。



Shenrice, they're different
If you say,
最近、日本語のできる外国人も増えていないでしょう。Or 最近、日本語のできる外国人は増えていないでしょう。
This is negation including your assumption （でしょう suggest your assumption. This でしょう can be だろう）.

If you say,
最近、日本語のできる外国人も増えているのではないでしょうか。
This is your assumption when you say "I suppose, I think, I wonder..etc."  "ない" is used in this usage too, so it is confusing. And take a look at this fragment: のではないでしょうか. This is a common usage to state your assumption.

For 2, negation, see Flam's posts.
Note that のではないでしょうか can be any of のではないか・のではないだろうか・んではないか・んじゃないか・・(Yes, it's so confusing again.)
Larris asked us before, too: んじゃないか/んじゃない/じゃない


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## Shenrais

Thank you all for your help

Clearly this is still difficult for me.  But I think this helped.

Also why does everyone say my name as rice


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## frequency

Shenrais said:


> Also why does everyone say my name as rice


Good for you! 

Go back to the simplest form （の）ではないか when you're stuck. And （の）ではないでしょうか・（の）ではないだろうか・・etc are the variations differing in politeness level. Post us back anytime.


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## karlalou

Shenrais said:


> 命令拒否はできないんじゃないんですか? 正論なんてことは役に立たないことは、さすがに知ってますよね。
> 
> I felt like some particle should be between 命令 and 拒否 but the first part to me sounds like "Aren't you able to refuse orders? You do know that such reasoning isn't helpful to you right?" I'm not sure why ことは is after なんて.


Maybe here 命令拒否 is said as one word, but otherwise, yes, I want は or を between 命令 and 拒否.

命令拒否はできないんじゃないんですか? has two ない, so it's "Aren't you _not_ able to refuse orders?", meaning "You are supposed not to refuse orders." 

By making it a negative question with ない（の・ん）ですか, it's saying that 命令拒否はできない is _believed true_ by the speaker, but because someone is for refusing an order so the speaker is _questioning _about it.

I think your issue is right here. Depending on the context this is also used to express a wonder, when the speaker is _not sure if it's true_.

Either way it's _questioning_.

This ことは after なんて is optional, but it makes the expression stronger by making it even clearer, I guess, it's a way of emphasizing it, though, here, ものは is better fit than ことは because 正論 alone doesn't involve any event or action. If it's 正論とするなんてことは, this sounds at least grammatically correct.


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## Shenrais

karlalou said:


> Maybe here 命令拒否 is said as one word, but otherwise, yes, I want は or を between 命令 and 拒否.
> 
> 命令拒否はできないんじゃないんですか? has two ない, so it's "Aren't you _not_ able to refuse orders?", meaning "You are supposed not to refuse orders."
> 
> By making it a negative question with ない（の・ん）ですか, it's saying that 命令拒否はできない is _believed true_ by the speaker, but because someone is for refusing an order so the speaker is _questioning _about it.
> 
> I think your issue is right here. Depending on the context this is also used to express a wonder, when the speaker is _not sure if it's true_.
> 
> Either way it's _questioning_.
> 
> This ことは after なんて is optional, but it makes the expression stronger by making it even clearer, I guess, it's a way of emphasizing it, though, here, ものは is better fit than ことは because 正論 alone doesn't involve any event or action. If it's 正論とするなんてことは, this sounds at least grammatically correct.



I'm almost 100% sure it was ことは after and not ものは. So I'm not sure then. Thanks for your explanation. Helped me out


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## frequency

Good!
”命令を拒否することは・・" would be much better, but your original text is more compact than it. You know, we sometimes make this kind of a yon-moji noun freely by combining two nouns （命令 and 拒否）. Strictly speaking, this is not a good thing very much but we have already been doing it for long, and this is therefore almost our "de fact" without clear rules. And I don't mean that 命令拒否 is a common and usual yon-moji noun.



Shenrais said:


> I'm almost 100% sure it was ことは after and not ものは. So I'm not sure then.


About 正論なんてことは・・, "正論なんて・・" would be much better, too. lol  But we sometimes say: ～～なんてことは or ～～なんてものは.
Are these two good? Difficult to say yes or no. Perhaps it's casually okay.


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