# né capo né coda



## stef2642

Hi everyone!

Could someone tell me if this is the correct translation?

Sentence: "Questo scritto non ha né capo né coda"

My attempt: "This writing has neither rhyme nor reason"


Thanks


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## Hillbilly

This sounds like an expression we use in American English:  "I can't make heads or tails out of it."    (It doesn't make sense.)   Is that what it means?


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## tranquilspaces

If I understand "non ha né capo né coda" correctly, it's means "endless and poorly organized."

If that's right, then I think a good translation might be, "This writing goes on and on." This implies that it is boring and hard to follow...

"Neither rhyme nor reason" implies that it is illogical.

"I can't make heads or tails of it" means it is impossible to comprehend.

Hope this helps...

xo
Shannon


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## Alxmrphi

I agree with tranquil, though I don't think I'm getting the same sense of _endless_, it just seems that it's poorly organised. It doesn't have a start, or an end, it's just a collection of text not put together in any logical way, it doesn't lead anywhere like it should do. If I was writing a history of Italy and I started with Rom & Rem, then mentioned Mussolini, went on about Caesar for a bit and then started describing Dante's house, sarebbe scritto in un modo con né capo né coda.

(My interpretation)


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## stef2642

Thanks everybody

really helpful

Yes Alxmrphi, the "endless" bit is absent in the meaning of "né capo né coda"

I still need a clarification though,

The expression "I can't make heads or tails out of it" seems to focus the attention on the reader, whereas the Italian expression is more focused on the writing itself. The result is the same (incomprehensibility), but the focus is different. Is it correct?

I'd like to ask one more question: In the expression "I can't make heads or tails out of it", does the fact that I can't understand depends on the writing itself or on me? Is it because it is too difficult for me, or because it is objectively incomprehensible? I'm asking this because the Italian expression implies that it is the writing itself which is unintelligible, either because it it poorly organized or because it is illogical, and so there is no way for anyone to understand.

Thanks a lot


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## Alxmrphi

> I'd like to ask one more question: In the expression "I can't make heads or tails out of it", does the fact that I can't understand depends on the writing itself or on me? Is it because it is too difficult for me, or because it is objectively incomprehensible?


Don't associate_ the heads or tails of_ it with the Italian because it's quite different, not a suitable translation here. What you asked is correct.
If I was reading a linguistics paper I wouldn't be able to make heads or tails of it, but a linguist could, it'd make perfect sense, the emphasis is on me, my ability and a perfect page of writing might be confusing to me. Also, if someone has tried to write in English but hasn't done it well it can be really incomprehensible and again, nobody would be able to make heads or tails of it, so this covers both meanings.


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## tranquilspaces

I think you can go with "no rhyme or reason" here.


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## Alxmrphi

tranquilspaces said:


> I think you can go with "no rhyme or reason" here.


Do you think so? I wouldn't suggest an idiomatic expression to match up with, it's sort of poetic and in many situations would sound quite weird.
I'd say "poorly written / put together" instead.


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## tranquilspaces

It sounds okay to me... but can you give me an example where you feel it would sound weird? Maybe I haven't thought of it.


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## Alxmrphi

If a book (like I described before) had a strange sense of putting information in no normal order, it looked like a bunch of ideas put together without a sense of progression, I wouldn't say "*this book has neither rhyme nor reason*", this sounds extremely strange to me.


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## rrose17

Ciao
Weighing in here, I agree with Ales it doesn't sound appropriate to refer to a book. I think neither rhyme nor reason, in effect is just emphasizing no reason. I think you could say there's no rhyme nor reason for the book to have been written. Maybe "jumble" fits. This book is just a jumble of ideas.


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## underhouse

Alxmrphi said:


> I agree with tranquil, though I don't think I'm getting the same sense of _endless_, it just seems that it's poorly organised. It doesn't have a start, or an end, it's just a collection of text not put together in any logical way, it doesn't lead anywhere like it should do. If I was writing a history of Italy and I started with Rom & Rem, then mentioned Mussolini, went on about Caesar for a bit and then started describing Dante's house, sarebbe scritto in un modo con senza né capo né coda.
> (My interpretation)


 
You have got the sense, Alex!



Alxmrphi said:


> If a book (like I described before) had a strange sense of putting information in no normal order, it looked like a bunch of ideas put together without a sense of progression, I wouldn't say "*this book has neither rhyme nor reason*", this sounds extremely strange to me.


 
If you can't say that I would go with:

_This book is complet nonsense._

I know that it is less colourful than the Italian equivalent, but I think that the sense is the same.


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## Alxmrphi

Ciao underhouse, e grazie della correzione!
"_This book is complete nonsense_" significa che le cose dentro le pagine sono false, è una sciocchezza, non è vero, stupido...  mentre con il senso che afferro dal _né capo né coda_, può essere vero, ma l'ordine / il mescolamento delle informazioni è fatto stranamente, senza logica.

Per questo devo dire che non penso che sarebbe la più ottima traduzione usare il tuo suggerimento, perché, ad esempio se parliamo di quel libro che ho nominato prima, della storia dell'Italia, dire "_nonsense_" significherebbe che tutto è falso, ma non sarebbe così.

Spero di essermi spiegato bene.
Mi piace anche jumble, ma per una traduzione normale, salva, direi "poorly / badly put together".


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## underhouse

Alxmrphi said:


> Ciao underhouse, e grazie della correzione!
> "_This book is complete nonsense_" significa che le cose dentro le pagine scritte sono false, è una sciocchezza, non è vero vere, stupide... mentre con il senso che afferro dal non avere/senza _né capo né coda_ è diverso, cioè, il contenuto può essere vero, ma l'ordine / il mescolamento delle informazioni è fatto stranamente, dato senza logica.
> 
> Per questo devo dire che non penso che il tuo suggerimento sarebbe sia la più ottima traduzione migliore (da usare), perché, ad esempio, se parliamo di quel libro che ho nominato prima, sulla storia d'Italia, dire (usare) "_nonsense_" significherebbe dire che tutto è falso, ma non sarebbe così.
> 
> Spero di essermi spiegato bene.
> Mi piace anche jumble, ma per una traduzione normale, salva(?), direi "poorly / badly put together".


 
Alex,

I thought that a nonsense was something with no sense, illogical, rather than something false.


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## stef2642

It's getting interesting ...

In Italian, at least to me, "né capo né coda" doesn't convey any poetic sense; but, since I think we can probably render the sense of "put together" with closer translations like "messo su alla rinfusa", "messo su come viene",  "raffazzonato", ecc., which I guess are the same as saying "patched together"; I thought we might dig more and find the expression that would perfectly match the following requirements: 1) no poetic sense 2) not formal but not that usual either; in the sense that if I had to choose between one of the expressions I mentioned ("messo su ...", ecc.) and "né capo né coda", one out of three/four I would chose the first 3) no weird feeling associated to its use; in the sense that it would fit as well as the others 4) slightly stronger sense of irreparability, in the sense that if you want to get something out of it, you'd better restart from scratch. In the other expressions you get the idea that in reordering the whole thing you have a chance to save it.
In any case, the very meaning of the expression is exactly what Alxmrphi said. So if there is no alternative I'd go for "put together".

thanks again


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## tranquilspaces

I would just like to mention that while I probably wouldn't say a book had "no rhyme or reason" if it was something I had purchased as a consumer, I would feel perfectly comfortable using this phrase to describe a book if I were an editor reading a manuscript or a critic reviewing a published work.

Stef: Based on your criteria above, I think you could say the writing is "all over the place."


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## Alxmrphi

> I thought that a nonsense was something with no sense, illogical, rather than something false.


 
It is that as well 


> Stef: Based on your criteria above, I think you could say the writing is* "all over the place."*


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## rrose17

stef2642 said:


> It's getting interesting ...
> 
> In any case, the very meaning of the expression is exactly what Alxmrphi said. So if there is no alternative I'd go for "put together".


Just to say that "put together" on its own has no connotations at all. You'd have to say, as Alex wrote, _badly_ put together.


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## stef2642

Thank you all

So, just to clarify: do you all guys agree that between "badly put together" and "all over the place", if we accept the criteria I gave, the right translation for "senza capo né coda" is "all over the place"?

sorry for being so picky!


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## rrose17

I think "all over the place" might, in fact, fit better, but it is more colloquial an expression than "badly put together". I don't know if it will stand out because of that.


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## tranquilspaces

I agree with Rose that it depends on the overall tone of the passage. With a few more sentences of context, we may be able to answer this question better.


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## stef2642

OK, just to resume


 In general, the expression refers to the way a combination of elements is arranged, and so it refers both to a lack of an intelligible order of a whole and, because of that, to the failure of that whole to fulfill its function, whatever it is. Ex:


   (i)  “il *discorso* che ha fatto non aveva né capo né coda” (it was badly arranged, disorganized, etc.,  and so I couldn’t understand what he/she wanted to say )
  (ii)  “il tuo *ragionamento* non ha né capo né coda”  (it is illogical, there are neither recognizable premises nor conclusion, and so I can’t make any sense of it)
  (iii)  “è una *frase* senza capo né coda” (it lacks grammatical order, and so I can’t get its meaning)


  Sometimes the focus is shifted to the elements of the whole like in:


  (iv) “le *conclusioni* a cui si arriva non hanno né capo né coda” (they are absurd, they don’t make any sense)
  (v)  “sono delle *affermazioni* senza capo né coda”  (absurd,  without foundation)


       Sometimes a singular object can be taken as a whole in itself, which lacks intelligible order. The range of application of this case might be wide I guess. So, you could even say of a window that (vi) “questa *finestra *non ha né capo né coda” when, for ex., you want to put it on a frame, and all sides look the same, and you don’t know which one you should hook first; or you could say of a photo that (vii) “questa *foto *non ha né capo né coda” because you don’t know what way you should look at it (what’s the top? What’s the bottom?)


 Anyway, let's give some context:


1) we are in a very informal conversation with a friend
2) we are writing a review for a monthly paper
3) we are talking at a university seminar but not in a formal way

How would you translate (i) in all these context? And what about (v)? And what about (vi) and (vii)?

By the way, I think I found another informal expression which could fit: scrappy. But I don't know ...

Thanks for your patience


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## rrose17

Wow, this definitely deserves some well thought out answers. 
I think "poorly constructed" might be very appropriate since there is no colloquial feeling to this and it gives the same exact idea as badly put together. It can be used in (i) (ii) and (iii) for 1) 2) and 3) 
I don't think they fit for the others, however. For (iv) and (v) I'd simply say your argument is without foundation, baseless and a thousand other ways that are less formal. (vi) and (vii) would take "I don't know/I can't tell which is up or down" or ""which side is which".
That's all folks!


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## tranquilspaces

Hi Stef,

I agree with Rose! Here are a few additional ideas as well...

Taking your situations by context:

Context 1: informal conversation with a friend:

(i) “il *discorso* che ha fatto non aveva né capo né coda” - That lecture was all over the place, it was a confusing mess, it was impossible to get anything out of it. Who could make heads or tails of it???
(ii) “il tuo *ragionamento* non ha né capo né coda” - Your "reasoning" has no rhyme or reason to it. (Seems like others might not say this, but I definitely would! Not sure if this is a regional issue or a matter of personal style... I grew up hearing this phrase all the time. My father is a litigation attorney and he likes to use this phrase in reference to the other side's legal arguments.) You could also say, "Your reasoning is inherently flawed here." 
(iii) “è una *frase* senza capo né coda” - This sentence is a mess, it makes no sense, it is unintelligible. 
(iv) “le *conclusioni* a cui si arriva non hanno né capo né coda” - His/her conclusions are baseless, they lack a proper foundation. 
(v) “sono delle *affermazioni* senza capo né coda” - He/she has no evidence to back up that statement.

Context 2: writing a review for a monthly paper

(i) “il *discorso* che ha fatto non aveva né capo né coda” - The lecture was poorly constructed, poorly organized, badly put together. 
(ii) “il *ragionamento*non ha né capo né coda” – This person’s reasoning is inherently flawed.
(iii) “è una *frase* senza capo né coda” - This sentence is a mess, it makes no sense, it is unintelligible. 
(iv) “le *conclusioni* a cui si arriva non hanno né capo né coda” – He/she has drawn an improper conclusion from the evidence at hand. 
(v) “sono delle *affermazioni* senza capo né coda” - He/she has no evidence to back up that statement.

Context 3: talking at a university seminar but not in a formal way 

Started to write this out, but now realize that it’s probably some combination of combination of 1 and 2, depending on the personality of the speaker and how academic the atmosphere is.

By the way, I will never forget the phrase “né capo né coda” now, you can be assured of that! I feel like I understand it inside and out! Thanks for your thorough explanation.

xo,
Shannon


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## stef2642

Thank you very much to all of you
It was really helpful

By the way,
Shannon, I'm glad you will never forget this expression


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## Patsy Boffa

Another interpretation  "without a beginning or an end" could also work. If I say a book has no beginning or end, I mean that it is badly constructed, and "all over the place."


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## Einstein

Patsy Boffa said:


> Another interpretation "without a beginning or an end" could also work. If I say a book has no beginning or end, I mean that it is badly constructed, and "all over the place."


Well, that's the literal translation of "né capo né coda", so why not?

Just to distinguish about "heads or tails", I once found "I can't make head or tail of it" translated as "Non ci capisco un'acca". It doesn't only refer to a text or a speech, it could be a strange object, for example, so it's definitely different from "né capo né coda".


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## tranquilspaces

Depending on the context, "no beginning and no end" can also mean "infinity" - and can be used in a very romantic way....

I'm imagining in that sense it's different from "né capo né coda?


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## Odysseus54

My 2 cents - "un discorso senza capo ne' coda" is a speech or a series of statements full of all sorts of non sequiturs, logical fallacies and perhaps containing false or misunderstood information.


" Stai facendo discorsi senza capo ne coda "  " You are talking nonsense now "

or

" E' una teoria senza capo ne coda "  " It's a theory that makes no sense at all "

or

" Mi ha raccontato una storia senza capo ne' coda "  " He told me a story that made absolutely no sense "

I think the Italian expression is pretty generic and informal for "insensato"  - I do not see it as a colloquialism for "disorganizzato" or "male organizzato".

If I said : " Questo preventivo non ha ne' capo ne' coda " , I would not mean that the information in the estimate is not presented in its proper order, but rather that it is _grossly_ incorrect, that it does not reflect the scope of the job etc.


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## Alxmrphi

Thanks Ody, I think your post has been the most beneficial for me in grasping the meaning


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## Caroline35

stef2642 said:


> Hi everyone!
> 
> Could someone tell me if this is the correct translation?
> 
> Sentence: "Questo scritto non ha né capo né coda"
> 
> My attempt: "This writing has neither rhyme nor reason"
> 
> 
> Thanks


 
questo scritto non ha senso.


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