# Same family, different words



## Penyafort

Within the same family, a common fact is that several languages use cognates for the same concept.

_English: *green *_- _German: *grün *_- _Dutch: *groen *_- _Swedish: *grön *- Danish: *grøn *- Norwegian: *grønn *- Icelandic: *grænn *_, etc.
_Spanish: *verde*_ _- Portuguese: *verde* - French: *vert *- Italian: *verde *- Romanian: *verde *- Catalan: *verd *- Romansh: *verd *, _etc.​
However, sometimes words happen to be different in most or even all of the languages in the family. For instance, the high internal diversity in the choice for the standard (or more common) words used for "boy" and "girl" in most languages of the Romance family is something I've always found quite remarkable.

Spanish: *chica*,* muchacha*
Portuguese and Galician:* moça*, (Pt.)* rapariga*, (Br.) *garota* | (Gal.) *moza, rapaza*
French: (*jeune*) *fille*
Italian: *ragazza*
Romanian: *fată*
Catalan: *noia*, (Val.) *xiqueta*, (Bal.) *al·lota*, (Alg.) *minyona* 
Occitan: *joventa*, *dròlla*, (Gas.) *gojata*
Gallo-Italian:* tósa/*(Pie.)* tóta*,* tosata*
Neapolitan:* uagliona*
Sicilian: *carusa*
Sardinian: *picciocca*, *piseddha*
Friulian: *fantate*, *frutate*
Corsican: *zitella*/*zitedda*
Romansh: *matta*
Aragonese: *mesacha*, *moceta*, *zagala*
etc.​
Do you know about words, in the Romance family or any others, that happen to be different in all or most of its languages?


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## arn00b

Well, do you consider cognates, I'm not sure what the word is, but ones that are not parallel... I'll give an example:

So there are cognates like this, for example, Slavic:
Black: czarny, čórnyy, crn, černy, čierny, carny

And then there are cognates from the same root, but the words are different, not just in pronunciation or a slight vowel/consonant shift, but are totally different words:

Slavic:
girl: dívčyna, devojka, děvče, dívka, devíca, dievča, źowćo

These are all cognates and from the same root, but they're not like black or verde, they use different suffixes (-čyna, -ka, -če, -ica).

I don't know what this term is, but I assume that that's not what you're looking for, correct?

I also assume that you want words that are unexpectedly different, such as boy/girl, colors, etc, not more modern words like ship, money, currency, in which they're more likely to be different:

Slavic languages:

ship: kórab, parahód, loď, súdno, statek, okręt, brod, lága, 
money: parí, děn'gi, denar, waluta, novac, 

Germanic:
money: money, Geld, pengar, 

Romance:
money: argent, dinero, soldi, ban, munaida, 

Non-core vocabulary is much more likely to be different than words like boy, sun, sea, etc.


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## Sardokan1.0

from what I know Sardinian is the only Romance language to preserve a derivative of the Latin *"domus"*, while almost all the other Romance languages use "casa", except the French "maison" (mansio-mansionis)

northern Sardinian : sa domo - sas domos
southern Sardinian : sa domu - is domus

it's present also a derivative of Mansio : su masu (farm house)

other examples

*black :* nearly all Romance languages use a derivative of "niger-nigrum" (nero, noir, negro), while Sardinian and Corsican use a derivative of "nigellus" (blackish)

Sardinian : nieddu, nigheddu
Corsican : niellu (northern) nieddu (southern); Corsican also uses "neru, negru", while in Sardinian they are not present

*door : *all Romance languages use "porta, porte" etc.etc.

Sardinian : jànna (pronounce "yànna") - from Latin "janua"
*
friday :* all Romance languages : Venerdì, Vendredi, Divendres, Viernes etc.etc.

Sardinian : chenàpura, chenàbura (from Latin "dies Coena Pura", name used in Roman times by Sardinian Jews and early Christians for the day before the holyday of Shabbat)

*dog :* nearly all Romance languages use "Cane, Chien, Cão, Câine", Sardinian included : Cane (nothern) , Cani (southern)

Spanish : perro
southern Corsican : ghjàcaru

the same word is present in Sardinian as "jàgaru", meaning "hunting dog", there is also the verb "jagarare" (to chase, to hunt, to drive away); once I read an article of a Corsican linguist, who explained the etymology with the Latin verb "Jacere" (to lie); so Ghjàcaru or Jàgaru could be translated as "that who lies in ambush"; they could also be related to the Basque "Zakur" (dog), to the German "Jäger" (hunter), also the word Jaguar could be etymologically related


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## Ben Jamin

arn00b said:


> ship: kórab, parahód, loď, súdno, statek, okręt, brod, lága,
> money: parí, děn'gi, denar, waluta, novac,


Remove paraxod (параход), it means a steam boat. The generic for ship in Russian is корабль.


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## Nino83

Italian, French, Portuguese, ,Spanish, (Sicilian): 

bicchiere, verre, copo, vaso, (biccheri)
cassetto, tiroir, gaveta, cajón, (casciuni) 
mattonella, carreau, azulejo, baldosa, (mattunedda)  
spazzatura, ordures, lixo, basura, (munnizza)
nonno, grand-père, avô, abuelo, (nonnu) 
bambino, enfant, menino, niño, (carusu) 
ragazzo, garçon, rapaz, muchacho, (figghiolu) 
cappotto, manteau, sobretudo, abrigo, (cappottu, mantedda)  
giacca, veste, casaco, chaqueta, (giaccu) 
gonna, jupe, saia, falda, (faddetta) 
ombrello, parapluie, guarda-chuva, paraguas, (umbrella) 

two are the same: 
forchetta, fourchette, garfo, tenedor, (fucchetta) 
padella, poêle, frigideira, sartén, (padedda) 
sedia, chaise, cadeira, silla, (seggia) 
finestra, fenêtre, janela, ventana, (finestra)


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## Sardokan1.0

Compared with Sardinian, some look similar, others totally different

Italian, French, Portuguese, ,Spanish, (Sicilian) Sardinian

bicchiere, verre, copo, vaso, (biccheri), tazza
cassetto, tiroir, gaveta, cajón, (casciuni), calàsciu (from Catalan "calaix")
mattonella, carreau, azulejo, baldosa, (mattunedda) mattonella
spazzatura, ordures, lixo, basura, (munnizza) alga (northern Sardinian) àliga (southern) - from Latin "alga" : valueless thing
nonno, grand-père, avô, abuelo, (nonnu) yàyu (it's present in Greek "yayá" : grandmother); it's also used incorrectly "nonnu" because nonnu in Sardinian means godfather, (from Greek "nonós")
bambino, enfant, menino, niño, (carusu), criadura (newborn) pizzinnu, paggiu (child in general) piseddu (teenager)
ragazzo, garçon, rapaz, muchacho, (figghiolu), jòvanu, piccioccu
cappotto, manteau, sobretudo, abrigo, (cappottu, mantedda), gabbànu, mantiglia
giacca, veste, casaco, chaqueta, (giaccu) gianchetta
gonna, jupe, saia, falda, (faddetta), gunnedda, falditta, faldetta - faldittedda, faldettedda (apron)
ombrello, parapluie, guarda-chuva, paraguas, (umbrella) paraccu, paracqua 

two are the same:
forchetta, fourchette, garfo, tenedor, (fucchetta) furchetta, furchitta, furchidda
padella, poêle, frigideira, sartén, (padedda) frisciòlu (Latin "frixorium") there is also "padedda" but coincides with the Italian "pentola"
sedia, chaise, cadeira, silla, (seggia) cadréa (northern Sardinian) cadíra (southern)
finestra, fenêtre, janela, ventana, (finestra) balcone, fenestra (northern Sardinian) ventana (southern)


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## Karton Realista

arn00b said:


> Slavic languages:
> 
> ship: kórab, parahód, loď, súdno, statek, okręt, brod, lága,
> money: parí, děn'gi, denar, waluta, novac,


This is wrong on many levels:
- Slovak loď and Polish łódź mean boat, not ship, + what Ben Jamin said about пароход, statek and okręt are both Polish words meaning something quite different (every okręt is a statek, but not every statek is an okręt:
Statek-





Okręt (and also statek) -




- waluta is in Polish "currency", denar is *a currency* (in historic perspective, it also may be name for "coin" in some languages, but certainly not money, it's singular), Russian деньги is ok, Polish word for money is pieniądze and Slovak is peniaze, obviously cognate.


arn00b said:


> Slavic:
> girl: dívčyna, devojka, děvče, dívka, devíca, dievča, źowćo


You forgot to add dziewczyna, dziewoja (old-fashioned), dziewczę (fancy-shmancy word), dziewka (colloquial /village speech/old fashioned)... Those terms are/were used to describe a girl in Polish alone, not even other languages, and they turn out to be mirrors of the ones you gave. There are also words dziwka and dziewica, I'm listing them separately because first means whore and second means virgin, but there's a striking resemblance to the ones you gave. Slavic languages love to recycle.


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## Uticens678

As in Romansh, in the dialect of the city of Vercelli "Mat" and "matta" mean "boy" and "girl" (!)


​


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## arn00b

"Denar" is money in Slovene. 
Czech loď means ship.

I'm at fault for not listing the languages, I just wanted OP to clarify his/her question on core vocabulary.  On modern words, if Russian borrows from Dutch, Polish from German, Slovene from Italian, Serbian from Turkish, etc. we can't be surprised if none of the words are cognates.   It's not the same thing as "chica-ragazza-fille" syndrome.


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## Karton Realista

arn00b said:


> "Denar" is money in Slovene.
> Czech loď means ship.


I'm sorry about those, but the rest still stands.
But still






arn00b said:


> On modern words, if Russian borrows from Dutch, Polish from German, Slovene from Italian, Serbian from Turkish, etc. we can't be surprised if none of the words are cognates. It's not the same thing as "chica-ragazza-fille" syndrome.


A lot of Slavic words are similar but have different meaning - Slavic family has tons of false friends and therefore the almost direct cognates are often not terms for the same thing.
A great example of not-loaned words for the same thing that take a big variation is to speak/talk:
- mówić, rozmawiać (Polish)
- hovoriť, vravieť (Slovak)
- говорить (Russian)
- hovořit, říkat, mluvit (Czech) 
- говорити, казати (Ukrainian) 
Cognates to the unique words from this mix exist, říkat has a cognate in Polish rzec - to say something in a serious, highly manner. Kazać, cognate to Ukrainian казати, means to order (someone to do sth). Vravieť I heard comes from vrava, babble, chaotic and loud mixture of many human voices, which has cognates in Polish and Czech.
You can also give the examples of zabójstwo/vražda (murder, pl and sk). Vražda comes from vrah (murderer), and Polish cognate to that is wróg (enemy). Zabójstwo comes from zabić (kill), zabić comes from bić (to hit), which exists in Slovak as biť (spelling is different, but the word is exactly the same).


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## Highland Thing

Sardokan1.0 said:


> *door : *all Romance languages use "porta, porte" etc.etc.
> *
> friday :* all Romance languages : Venerdì, Vendredi, Divendres, Viernes etc.etc.



NB: Portuguese for 'Friday' is Sexta-feira, and Romanian for 'door' = uşă


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## Sardokan1.0

Highland Thing said:


> NB: Portuguese for 'Friday' is Sexta-feira, and Romanian for 'door' = uşă



the Romanian "uşă" reminds the Italian "uscio" (threshold, doorway), from verb "uscire" (to exit)


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## Highland Thing

Sardokan1.0 said:


> the Romanian "uşă" reminds the Italian "uscio" (threshold, doorway), from verb "uscire" (to exit)



Yes. I imagine that's also the origin of the word for 'door' in Walloon - 'ou(x)h' or 'uch' (depending on authority/dialect).


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## Ben Jamin

Nino83 said:


> Italian, French, Portuguese, ,Spanish, (Sicilian):
> 
> *bicchiere*, verre, copo, vaso, (*biccheri*)
> *cassetto*, tiroir, gaveta, *cajón*, (*casciuni*)
> *mattonella*, carreau, azulejo, baldosa, (*mattunedda*)
> spazzatura, ordures, lixo, basura, (munnizza)
> *nonno*, grand-père,* avô*, *abuelo*, (*nonnu*)
> bambino, enfant, menino, niño, (carusu)
> ragazzo, garçon, rapaz, muchacho, (figghiolu)
> *cappotto*, *manteau*, sobretudo, abrigo, (*cappottu*, *mantedda*)
> *giacca*, veste, casaco, chaqueta, (*giaccu*)
> gonna, jupe, saia, *falda*, (*faddetta*)
> *ombrello*, parapluie, guarda-chuva, paraguas, (*umbrella*)
> 
> two are the same:
> *forchetta, fourchette*, garfo, tenedor, (*fucchetta*)
> *padella, poêle*, frigideira, sartén, (*padedda*)
> *sedia*, chaise, cadeira, *silla*, (*seggia*)
> *finestra, fenêtre,* janela, ventana, (*finestra*)


I have marked the cognates.


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## Nino83

Ben Jamin said:


> I have marked the cognates.



This is the reason why I put Sicilian into brackets. It was an "adjunct" (almost all Sicilian words are equal to Italian, French and, sometimes, Spanish).


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## danielstan

Sardokan1.0 said:


> the Romanian "uşă" reminds the Italian "uscio" (threshold, doorway), from verb "uscire" (to exit)


False friends.
Romanian "uşă" < VL *ustia (feminine of *ustium < Lat. ostium)  (dexonline)
While Lat. _exire _(_ex_+_ire _= "out" + "to go") > It. _uscire_, Rom. _ieşire_

Romanian "uşă" means "door", indeed.
Romanian "poartă" means "gate" - so the Latin _porta _was preserved in Romanian with a slight change of meaning (like many other Latin words).


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## Sardokan1.0

A similar change of meaning for "porta" happens in Sardinian, where we use the augmentative of Porta with a slight change of meaning

door = _jànna_
big door = _portale_
gate = _jaga _(wooden grill gate) - Lat. "jaculum" (javelin, net, grill)
to exit = _essire_

while in Italian :

door : _porta_
big door : _portone, portale_
gate : _cancello_


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## danielstan

But to address the question or the title of this thread:

In my opinion the main cause of such diversity for a word from the basic vocabulary (vocabulary used on daily basis) of languages from the same family is:
- the competition between words with related meanings or even with the same meaning in a languages leads to the disappearance of ones and promotion of others over the centuries.
In every language there is a "competition" between words with close meanings and the hazard (the preferences of the speakers over generations) make some words disappear or becoming archaic, while other words (imported or old ones with slight change of meaning) replace them.

Few examples to illustrate what I mean:
"girl" = Fr. _fille _< Lat. _filia _("daughter")
"girl" = Rom. _fată _< Lat. _feta _(feminine of _fetus_)

"cousin" = Fr. _cousin _< Lat. _consobrinus _("maternal cousin")
"cousin" = Rom. _văr _< Lat. expression _consobrinus vero_ ("true maternal cousin") in opposition to Lat. expression _consobrinus germanus_

"brother" = Rom. _frate_, It. _fratello _(from a diminutive of _frater_!) < Lat. f_rater_
"brother" = Sp. hermano < Lat. expr. _consobrinus germanus_ ("genuine cousin")

So we observe in Latin there were many related words in this area, with slight differences in meaning, while the speakers of Romance languages have chosen one or another Latin word and forgot the rest of them.

And if we add in equation words imported by Romance languages from other languages we have:
"white" = Rom. _alb _< Lat. _albus _("white")
"white" = It. _bianco_, Fr. _blanc _< Germanic _blinken _("brilliant")
-------------------------------------
I will give a summary of a reasonable reconstruction of how a loanword has entered in Romanian.

Romanian has 2 words for "wife":
Rom. _soție _< feminine of Lat. _socius _("partner", see _societatis _= "society, partnership")
Rom. _nevastă _< South Slavic _nevesta_

Why would Romanians import another word for wife, if they already had one?
It is reasonable to believe that in the beginning there was a slight difference in meaning, i.e. the loanword _nevastă _to mean "wife of Slavic origin".
Somebody could have said:
"I have a _nevastă _" to underline the fact that his wife was Slavic.
From generation to generation the extra meaning of "Slavic wife" disappear and now Romanian has 2 synonims for "wife".


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## Sardokan1.0

speaking about relatives, also Sardinian uses many words derived from Latin synonyms rather than from the most popular Latin nouns

*girl *: _jòvana _(Lat. Juvenis)

*cousin *: _fradìle _(diminutive of "Frater")
*cousine *: _sorrasta ; _it looks like the Italian "sorellastra" = half sister; while in Sardinian half sister is : _sorre a unu lados_ (literally : sister at one side)
*first cousin* : _hermane primarzu_ (primary cousin)

*brother *: _frade_
*sister *: _sorre_
while in some areas of central Sardinia instead of _Frade _or _Sorre _it's used _"Carrale"_ (carnal)

*white *: are present both _"albu, alvu, arbu, arvu"_ and _"biancu"_

*wife *: _muzére _(northern) _mulléri _(southern) Lat. mulier-mulieris

but there is also _"pobidda"_ (housewife) Lat. pupilla


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## robbie_SWE

Sardokan1.0 said:


> Compared with Sardinian, some look similar, others totally different
> 
> 
> Italian, French, Portuguese, Spanish, (Sicilian) Sardinian, *Romanian*
> 
> 
> bicchiere, verre, copo, vaso, (biccheri), tazza, *pahar *(from Hungarian _póhar_, which itself comes from Late Latin _bicarium_)
> 
> cassetto, tiroir, gaveta, cajón, (casciuni), calàsciu (from Catalan "calaix"), *sertar *(from Greek _συρτάρι _, syrtári)
> 
> mattonella, carreau, azulejo, baldosa, (mattunedda) mattonella, *placă *(from French _plaque_)
> 
> spazzatura, ordures, lixo, basura, (munnizza) alga (northern Sardinian) àliga (southern) - from Latin "alga" : valueless thing; *gunoi *(from Slavic *_gnoĭ_), *deșeu *(from French _déchet_)
> 
> nonno, grand-père, avô, abuelo, (nonnu) yàyu (it's present in Greek "yayá" : grandmother); it's also used incorrectly "nonnu" because nonnu in Sardinian means godfather, (from Greek "nonós"), *bunic *(from _bun _< Latin _bonus _+ _-ic_)
> 
> bambino, enfant, menino, niño, (carusu), criadura (newborn) pizzinnu, paggiu (child in general) piseddu (teenager), *copil *(of unknown origin, possibly autochthonous, related to equivalents in other neighbouring Balkan languages)
> 
> ragazzo, garçon, rapaz, muchacho, (figghiolu), jòvanu, piccioccu, *băiat *(unknown origin, possibly related to _bărbat_, or, inevitably from Vulgar Latin root *_bailliator _or *_bailiatu_)
> 
> cappotto, manteau, sobretudo, abrigo, (cappottu, mantedda), gabbànu, mantiglia, *manta*, *mantie*, *mantou *(inevitably all from Latin _mantellum_, diminutive of _mantum_, through French, Greek and Slavic intermediaries)
> 
> giacca, veste, casaco, chaqueta, (giaccu) gianchetta, *geacă*, *jachetă *(inevitably from French _jaquette_)
> 
> gonna, jupe, saia, falda, (faddetta), gunnedda, falditta, faldetta - faldittedda, faldettedda (apron), *fustă *(from Greek _φούστα ‎_(foústa), from φ_ο_υστάνι ‎(foustáni), inevitably from Italian _fustagni_, _fustagno_)
> 
> ombrello, parapluie, guarda-chuva, paraguas, (umbrella) paraccu, paracqua, *umbrelă *(from French _ombrelle_)
> 
> 
> two are the same:
> 
> forchetta, fourchette, garfo, tenedor, (fucchetta) furchetta, furchitta, furchidda, *furculiță *(diminutive of _furcă _< Latin _furca_)
> 
> padella, poêle, frigideira, sartén, (padedda) frisciòlu (Latin "frixorium") there is also "padedda" but coincides with the Italian "pentola", *tigaie *(inevitably from Byzantine Greek _τηγάνιν_, tēgánin)
> 
> sedia, chaise, cadeira, silla, (seggia) cadréa (northern Sardinian) cadíra (southern), *scaun *(from Latin _scamnum_)
> 
> finestra, fenêtre, janela, ventana, (finestra) balcone, fenestra (northern Sardinian) ventana (southern), *fereastră *(from Latin _fenestra_)




For the sake of consistency, I've taken the liberty to add Romanian.


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## Highland Thing

It's worth mentioning also (re last posts by danielstan and Sardokan1.0) that bilingualism and diglossia will have played a role in the distribution of such synonyms in both Romanian and Sardinian lexicons.


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## Caktus

danielstan said:


> False friends.
> Romanian "poartă" means "gate" - so the Latin _porta _was preserved in Romanian with a slight change of meaning (like many other Latin words).



There is no change in meaning. The main meaning of porta in Latin is that of gate.


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## Angelo di fuoco

Sardokan1.0 said:


> from what I know Sardinian is the only Romance language to preserve a derivative of the Latin *"domus"*, while almost all the other Romance languages use "casa", except the French "maison" (mansio-mansionis)
> 
> northern Sardinian : sa domo - sas domos
> southern Sardinian : sa domu - is domus
> 
> it's present also a derivative of Mansio : su masu (farm house)
> 
> other examples
> 
> *black :* nearly all Romance languages use a derivative of "niger-nigrum" (nero, noir, negro), while Sardinian and Corsican use a derivative of "nigellus" (blackish)
> 
> Sardinian : nieddu, nigheddu
> Corsican : niellu (northern) nieddu (southern); Corsican also uses "neru, negru", while in Sardinian they are not present
> 
> *door : *all Romance languages use "porta, porte" etc.etc.
> 
> Sardinian : jànna (pronounce "yànna") - from Latin "janua"
> *
> friday :* all Romance languages : Venerdì, Vendredi, Divendres, Viernes etc.etc.
> 
> Sardinian : chenàpura, chenàbura (from Latin "dies Coena Pura", name used in Roman times by Sardinian Jews and early Christians for the day before the holyday of Shabbat)
> 
> *dog :* nearly all Romance languages use "Cane, Chien, Cão, Câine", Sardinian included : Cane (nothern) , Cani (southern)
> 
> Spanish : perro
> southern Corsican : ghjàcaru
> 
> the same word is present in Sardinian as "jàgaru", meaning "hunting dog", there is also the verb "jagarare" (to chase, to hunt, to drive away); once I read an article of a Corsican linguist, who explained the etymology with the Latin verb "Jacere" (to lie); so Ghjàcaru or Jàgaru could be translated as "that who lies in ambush"; they could also be related to the Basque "Zakur" (dog), to the German "Jäger" (hunter), also the word Jaguar could be etymologically related



Spanish also has "can" for dog, although it is barely used, while standard Catalan has "gos", "ca" being used in some dialects (on the Balearic Islands, if I'm not mistaken).


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