# FR: unknown even by



## Mauvais sang

Hi,

How would I translate "even by"?

Context: Depths (of the ocean) unknown even by whales.

My translation so far: _les profondeurs inconnue même aux baleines_?

Thank you.


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## geostan

Mauvais sang said:


> Hi,
> 
> How would I translate "even by"?
> 
> Context: Depths (of the ocean) unknown even by whales.
> 
> My translation so far: _les profondeurs inconnue même aux baleines_?
> 
> Thank you.



Not bad. Just make the adjective agree: *inconnues*


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## Chimel

"Even by" can be translated "même par", "même de", "même à"... It depends on the verb/adjective to which it relates.

Here, you have "inconnu de", so it will be "les profondeurs inconnues mêmes des baleines".


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## geostan

Chimel said:


> "Even by" can be translated "même par", "même de", "même à"... It depends on the verb/adjective to which it relates.
> 
> Here, you have "inconnu de", so it will be "les profondeurs inconnues mêmes des baleines".



That's what I thought instinctively, and then I looked for examples to make certain, and couldn't find any. So I thought it better to leave that part of the sentence alone.


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## solregn

Chimel said:


> "Even by" can be translated "même par", "même de", "même à"... It depends on the verb/adjective to which it relates.
> 
> Here, you have "inconnu de", so it will be "les profondeurs inconnues mêmes des baleines".



Hi Chimel,
How would you know which one to choose among "même par", "même de" et "même à", then? 

I'm curious to know more about this!


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## Mauvais sang

solregn said:


> Hi Chimel,
> How would you know which one to choose among "même par", "même de" et "même à", then?
> 
> I'm curious to know more about this!



Yeah, me too! 

And thank you everyone who has responded so far


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## geostan

solregn said:


> Hi Chimel,
> How would you know which one to choose among "même par", "même de" et "même à", then?
> 
> I'm curious to know more about this!



It has nothing to do with _même_. It is the adjective _inconnu_ that determines the preposition.


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## Fred_C

And this thread should be named "unknown by" instead of "even by".


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## CapnPrep

geostan said:


> It is the adjective _inconnu_ that determines the preposition.


And it allows both _à_ and _de_. _De_ is probably more frequent (and it matches _connu de_), but I don't think _inconnues aux baleines_ can be considered incorrect.


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## Mauvais sang

Fred_C said:


> And this thread should be named "unknown by" instead of "even by".



Oh. I tried changing the title but couldn't find out how. But thank you for the suggestion!


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## Chimel

solregn said:


> Hi Chimel,
> How would you know which one to choose among "même par", "même de" et "même à", then?
> 
> I'm curious to know more about this!


Well, the problem is not "even", which is "même", but the preposition "by": it can match the French prepositions "par" (to be killed by soldiers), "de" (like here: "to be unknown by), "près de" (by the fire), "d'après" (by what he says)... and many other things.

So you "just" have to combine both, for example:
It is cold even by the fire: il fait froid, même près du feu.


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## Chimel

CapnPrep said:


> And it allows both _à_ and _de_. _De_ is probably more frequent (and it matches _connu de_), but I don't think _inconnues aux baleines_ can be considered incorrect.


Est-ce que vous n'êtes pas influencé par une expression comme "inconnu au bataillon", qui (selon moi) ne signifie pas "inconnu du bataillon" mais bien "inconnu dans le bataillon"?


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## Fred_C

CapnPrep said:


> And it allows both _à_ and _de_. _De_ is probably more frequent (and it matches _connu de_), but I don't think _inconnues aux baleines_ can be considered incorrect.


 You are right. It cannot.
(I mean that it cannot be considered incorrect, which means that it *is* correct)


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## CapnPrep

Chimel said:


> Est-ce que vous n'êtes pas influencé par une expression comme "inconnu au bataillon", qui (selon moi) ne signifie pas "inconnu du bataillon" mais bien "inconnu dans le bataillon"?


Non… Les exemples de _inconnu à_ sont légion.


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## solregn

Chimel said:


> Well, the problem is not "even", which is "même", but the preposition "by": it can match the French prepositions "par" (to be killed by soldiers), "de" (like here: "to be unknown by), "près de" (by the fire), "d'après" (by what he says)... and many other things.
> 
> So you "just" have to combine both, for example:
> It is cold even by the fire: il fait froid, même près du feu.



Ok, I think I got the hang of it: never mind _même_, you "just" have to learn which preposition to combine with what words... that makes it so much easier!  

But seriously, thanks for the clarification!


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