# Croatian (BCS): arsal



## DenisBiH

Moderator note: split from this thread. This thread is only about *"arsal"*.

Pozdrav svima.

Ovo bi možda više bilo za forum o etimologiji ali nekako mislim da i ako se nađe neko ko će ovo znati prije će biti među domaćima. Ako se sokol ne slaže može premjestiti tamo na EHL a ja ću probati prevesti na engleski.

Radi se o sljedećem - naletio sam na prijevod vinodolskog zakonika na današnji hrvatski jezik. Dva su me dijela zaintrigirala:

(... for "malik" see other thread ...)

arsal
 


> pov. poslanik kojega šalje vlastelin kao svjedoka pri sklapanju kakvog pravničkog čina
> 
> arap. rasūl: poslanik


(... for "malik" see other thread ...)

Uz brdo primjera imena i prezimena uključujući i Istru i Zagorje koji nisu bili pod osmanskom vlašću.

E sad, značenje za arsal koje daje HJP leži u onom gore kontekstu. S druge strane žakan (đakon, u suštini) i malik kao vladar mi ne leži, ali ne vidim drugog značenja na HJP. Osim toga, naletio sam na ovo što bi ako nije izmišljotina potvrđivalo postojanje te riječi malik u Dalmaciji i vezu sa macarol (veza sa đakon ostaje nejasna)



> Macić je pak poznat kao: *malik*, tintilin, malecić, malicić, matić, mate, *macarol, macarul.*.. Pokazuju se kao mala djeca u crvenoj odjeći i s kapicom ili kao oganj tj. plamen koji skače.


Moja su pitanja:

1) Je li nekome iz Dalmacije poznata i jedna od ovih riječi?
2) Je li poznat ikakav slučaj posuđivanja arapskih riječi prije dolaska Turaka, ili je ovdje u pitanju nešto što je naknadno dodato prilikom prepisivanja (u 16. stoljeću)? 
3) Znate li možda da je neko obrađivao konkrektno ove dvije riječi?


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## DenisBiH

TriglavNationalPark said:


> In Slovenian, *malik* refers to an *idol*, usually a *pagan idol*. In his etymological dictionary, Bezlaj states that there is no certain etymology, but he does mention widespread speculation that *malik* could be related to the common Slavic adjective *mali* (= small, little). He also mentions that *malik* means "spirito folletto" in Kajkavian Croatian, but I have no idea what that means.
> 
> I won't have a chance to check Snoj's etymological dictionary until tomorrow, but I'll let you know if he has any additional information.



Thanks. It just occurred to me to check Skok's etymological dictionary and it's quite confusing also.

Basically, for arsal, Skok does not agree with Jagić's view of arsal being related to Arabic irsal "poslanstvo" and rasul "poslanik", but says if that were true, it would be along with mogoriš one of the most archaic Arabic loanwords in Croatian.

Instead, he relates it to Medieaval Latin vassallus, with:

a) loss of initial v-
b) dissimilation -ss- to -rs-
c) change of meaning from "sluga" to "poslanik"

(... for "malik" see other thread ...)

It seems that either I'm missing something or Skok himself was not sure. 

Regarding early relations of Croats and Arabs, there is an interesting article on Wikipedia. I found the parts about the Caliph having diplomatic relations with the Croat kingdom (Gebalim) and of Croatian folklore attributing some magical powers to Arabs interesting as possible sources of arsal and malik.


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## phosphore

DenisBiH said:


> Instead, he relates it to Medieaval Latin vassallus, with:
> 
> a) loss of initial v-
> b) dissimilation -ss- to -rs-
> c) change of meaning from "sluga" to "poslanik"


 
Such evolution doesn't seem very natural. I don't know much about Italo-Romance historical phonology, but Latin /w/ changed to /v/ quite early and there would be no reason for Croat to drop this initial /v/ knowing that Slavic language actually prefer initial syllables with onset over those without it. Dissimilation of /ss/ to /rs/ seems to me quite dubious too.


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## DenisBiH

phosphore said:


> Such evolution doesn't seem very natural. I don't know much about Italo-Romance historical phonology, but Latin /w/ changed to /v/ quite early and there would be no reason for Croat to drop this initial /v/ knowing that Slavic language actually prefer initial syllables with onset over those without it. Dissimilation of /ss/ to /rs/ seems to me quite dubious too.




It seems a bit strange to me too. This is what Skok states:



> Glede gubitka početnoga v-, ako je od vassallus, upor. apa (v.) prema vampa (vapor), a glede rs < ss upor. Marseille < Massilia i fr. varlet. Glede značenja sluga > poslanik upor. cursor prema cursus,


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## phosphore

I didn't quite understand that part about "apa-vampa", but regarding /ss/>/rs/ it is very important to know when the supposed change occured. A geminate /s/ could change to /rs/ and Marseille was called Marsilia already in Roman times, but a simple /s/ could hardly ever be rendered as /rs/.


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## DenisBiH

phosphore said:


> I didn't quite understand that part about "apa-vampa", but regarding /ss/>/rs/ it is very important to know when the supposed change occured. A geminate /s/ could change to /rs/ and Marseille was called Marsilia already in Roman times, but a simple /s/ could hardly ever be rendered as /rs/.




This is what he mentions in the entry for vapa:



> väpa f (Dubrovnik, 1784) = vâp m (Stulić) »1° vapor, halitus, humor, 2° vonj,. 3° hidronim...Ako je osnovno značenje »para, isparivanje, Dunst« ide zajedno stcslav. vapa »stagnum, humor«...Upor. još vapno, japno (v.) i stcslav. аръ »boja, color«.


He then goes on saying that Balkan words can hardly be related to Italian vampa, old Italian vapa from va(m)pore. It's somewhat confusing, but I assume he meant to say Slavic shows cognate words with and without initial v- (it's either that or that Latin/Italian does, of which I haven't heard). I think Matasović wrote on that and I'll have to check tomorrow. However, whether this was productive for loanwords, I don't know.


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## phosphore

I still don't understand much, what does "v." in parentheses mean?

If we apply all attested sound changes in all historical epochs and all languages we can derive almost any word from any other. I think he should have said that he didn't know instead of providing such a dubious etymology.


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## DenisBiH

phosphore said:


> I still don't understand much, what does "v." in parentheses mean?
> 
> I think he should have said that he didn't know instead of providing such a dubious etymology.



(v.) is simply "vidi". I tried btw, there is no entry for "apa".

I agree , and he is usually much clearer, but to be honest, it was published posthumously so he obviously didn't have the time to properly finish/edit it, and I believe he's still the best (or is there a more extensive etymological dictionary?)


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## phosphore

To me knowledge he's not the best, he's _the only one_ available. 

Rather than an etymological dictionary, we need here a historical phonetics but I don't know if anyone has ever made one for Serbo-Croat. But anyway, it is much easier to derive /arsal/ from /rasul/ (or /irsal/ or some other, dialectal, form of one of these two) than from /vassalus/ (or rather /vassalu/ with syncoped final /m/).


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## DenisBiH

phosphore said:


> Rather than an etymological dictionary, we need here a historical phonetics but I don't know if anyone has ever made one for Serbo-Croat. But anyway, it is much easier to derive /arsal/ from /rasul/ (or /irsal/ or some other, dialectal, form of one of these two) than from /vassalus/ (or rather /vassalu/ with syncoped final /m/).




I believe there are several works, either for Serbo-Croat or for separate languages, apart from the latest by Matasović for Croatian which also covers morphology etc. in a rounded historical-comparative grammar, Matasović also mentions: Vuković, Moguš, Jurišić, Belić, Holzer and several others.

I think were it not for the fact that we're talking about potential Arabic loanword in an age where those are rather unrealistic, the vassallus etymology probably wouldn't exist. However, as Skok mentions, there indeed are early Arabic loanwords, mogoriš (medieval tax paid by Dubrovnik to Bosnia; in Skok "_pl. mahãrig, sing, mahrag »Ausgaben,Unkosten«_"; I suppose it's actually makhārij, connected to kharāj /   خراج "harač"), possibly kaznac (officer/dignitary in medieval Serbian and Bosnian courts; municipal treasury officer in Budvanski status; compare later hazna from Ott. Tur.; Arabic ḥazīnä), and, this I just saw, biser.



> _stsl._ bisьrъ (_rus._ bíser) ← _turk._ (?, _avar._) ← _arap._ busr


Either Avars or early Arab merchants in Slavic lands are credited for these by Skok.


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