# Mors certa, hora incerta



## l.schaerer

Hi guys

I'd like your opinion on this latin phrase(I would prefer comments from native speakers as I'm not one, but all others are also very welcome!).

 Normaly it's translated with "death is certain, its/the hour is uncertain" but in some cases also with "death is certain, its hour is not".

 I talked to a former english teacher of mine who's british and asked him if you could leave the "is" so it would be: "...,its hour not". He replyed that for strictly speaking you need the " is" but for poetry or creative writing not necessarelly. An other guy told me that if you change the sentence and don't use the normal "translated" phrase, the reader might not get it what you're meaning.

So if I write "death is certain, its hour not" how clear is the meaning to you?  How does it sound to you? Your thoughts please! 

As I like this one for a tattoo it would be great if I don't put a missspelling on my skin for the rest of my life! 

cheers and thank you all!
 Lucas


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## Scholiast

Greetings - Grüezi Lucas

Your English teacher was right: "Death is certain, its hour not" has a poetic (or at least literary) ring to it, but it is instantly comprehensible. But for a tattoo??!!!

Why not think here of Shakespeare: "Death, a necessary end / will come when it will come".

Or try it in Latin: _mortis certae hora incerta.

_Σ


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## suzi br

I'd stick with the Latin for a tattoo! But that is not the question ... 
In translation I would keep the verb* to be *in there: death is certain, its hour is not".

I don't really like your elision idea, I prefer the pattern of the usual translation. But then, why trust my judgement? I am not a big fan of tattoos either!


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## l.schaerer

Well the phrase would be just a part of it...The main motif is a guardian angel und underneath there is be a banner with the phrase on it. between the angel and the banner are a hourglass and some skulls. The whole idea of this is that death will come but you never know when. I lost a relative last year in a car accident and thats why I want a tattoo like this.


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## ewie

I'd also stick with the Latin version, Lucas _Death is certain, its hour not_ may have a literary feel to it ~ but I find it unspeakably clunky  I'd have to paraphrase it to produce something tolerable in English.


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## l.schaerer

The last thing I want to do is rape the english language, thats why I came here!  But now I'm not sure with the latin spelling.

Scholiast suggested _"mortis certae hora incerta" _but when I'm searching on google I find just _"mors certa, hora incerta"_ and it keeps asking me did you mean:_mors certa, hora incerta...

I never had latin in school so I don't know..._


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## suzi br

You need to try the Latin forum in here for advice on that.

I would meanwhile advise *not using* the word RAPE as a verb to describe tampering with language, it really is not appropriate!


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## suzi br

Oh I see we are in the Latin forum now! It must have been moved for you.

Good luck with it.


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## fdb

l.schaerer said:


> The last thing I want to do is rape the english language, thats why I came here!  But now I'm not sure with the latin spelling.
> 
> Scholiast suggested _"mortis certae hora incerta" _but when I'm searching on google I find just _"mors certa, hora incerta"_ and it keeps asking me did you mean:_mors certa, hora incerta...
> 
> I never had latin in school so I don't know..._



Our friend Scholiast is a first-rate latinist. I would trust him more than I would google.


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## bibax

There are more variants.

*Mors certa, hora incerta.* = Der Tod ist gewiß, die/seine Stunde ungewiß.
(it is written on the Neues Rathaus in Leipzig, see Wiki)

*Mortis certae hora incerta (est).* = The hour of the certain death is uncertain.

*Mors certa est, at eius hora incerta est.* (complete sentence)


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## wandle

l.schaerer said:


> I would prefer comments from native speakers


I am afraid it is a little late in the day for this. However, to address the topic:

_*Mors certa, hora incerta.*_ 
_*Mortis certae hora incerta.*_ 
_*Mors certa est, at eius hora incerta est.* _

These three are all grammatical Latin: the first two are more idiomatic.

For a translation of the first one as a motto, I would suggest:

'Our life must end, we know not when'.


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## l.schaerer

I'm sorry for using the wrong word here (rape), in german it's a common expression...but what goes for german must not work in english..sorry angain!

@wandle this with the native speaker was ment for the english translation of the latin expression and its impression on the native speaker...

Thank you all for your posts and your provided help! Well as I first wrote I looked for an english "poetic" translation of the latin expression and I'm not a big fan of latin itself so I will stick with: 
"Death is certain, its hour is not".


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## wandle

l.schaerer said:


> @wandle this with the native speaker was ment for the english translation of the latin expression and its impression on the native speaker...


I beg your pardon: I had not realised the thread had been started in the English Only forum.


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## Scholiast

salvete amici!

A clarification: "rape" of the English language has not been an issue in this thread. It is of course a violent metaphor, but it is unlikely that anyone here will have taken it amiss. _Vergewaltigung_ is of course an abominable crime, but it is within the measure of rhetoric to use such hyperbole sometimes.

Mr Schaerer needs not to apologise so effusively.

And while I am about it, thanks to fdb for the pretty compliment (# 9) - I only wish I commanded as much philological expertise as his. 

Σ


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