# My Genative "Tou"



## GreedyGreen

Another two genative examples given in my book are:
*Της* είπα τα νέα
&
Είπα* της Μαρίας* τα νέα

...meaning "I told her the news" and "I told Maria the news" respectively.

Given both examples are verb governed (non possessive) genatives, my question is, why does a pronoun get placed at the _start_ of the sentence whereas a name is placed _after_ the verb? Is there a reason, and indeed is this word order _always_ the case? Or is it just one of those things that *is* because it *is*?

Can I say *Της Μαρίας* είπα τα νέα and still be correct?


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## modus.irrealis

GreedyGreen said:


> Given both examples are verb governed (non possessive) genatives, my question is, why does a pronoun get placed at the _start_ of the sentence whereas a name is placed _after_ the verb?


For the pronoun, it's a matter of there being strict rules about where the pronoun can go. Basically pronouns have to go directly before the verb (whether that's sentence first or not) and there are rules about the ordering among the pronouns if there are more than one, e.g. in της τα είπα literally 'I told her them' or δεν της είπα τα νέα 'I didn't tell her the news', της cannot be placed anywhere else. (Actually, for some verb forms like the imperative the pronouns come after, e.g. πες της τα νέα "tell her the news".) For nouns, the normal placement in this case would be after the verb.



> Can I say *Της Μαρίας* είπα τα νέα and still be correct?


Normally, though, if you move the noun in front of the verb, you have to repeat the pronoun, so της Μαρίας της είπα τα νέα. And note that this has a slightly different emphasis in that this sentence is now about Maria.


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## Kevman

GreedyGreen said:


> Given both examples are verb governed (non possessive) genatives


These in fact are examples of the genitive indicating an _indirect object_.  I personally think it's more or less the same function as the genitives in your other post, but serious grammarians may make a distinction.



modus.irrealis said:


> Normally, though, if you move the noun in front of the verb, you have to repeat the pronoun, so της Μαρίας της είπα τα νέα. And note that this has a slightly different emphasis in that this sentence is now about Maria.


Just a note: as I understand it, Της Μαρίας είπα τα νέα is fine and emphasizes Maria, but Της Μαρίας της είπα τα νέα shifts some emphasis back to the verb.  You would use the redundant pronoun if Maria is already the understood topic of the conversation and you wanted it to be known that you _told_ her the news.


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## modus.irrealis

Kevman said:


> Just a note: as I understand it, Της Μαρίας είπα τα νέα is fine and emphasizes Maria, but Της Μαρίας της είπα τα νέα shifts some emphasis back to the verb.


You're right -- I think I was thrown off because I would expect σε + noun to be more common in this sort of construction (i.e. without the additional pronoun) than the genitive -- I mean even more common than usual, but I may very well be wrong about that as well.


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## Kevman

modus.irrealis said:


> I would expect σε + noun to be more common in this sort of construction (i.e. without the additional pronoun) than the genitive


I agree.  The use of the genitive instead of a preposition to mark a noun as the indirect object usually seems to me to be a more dialectal or regionally colloquial construction.


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## GreedyGreen

Hmmm... are you saying that "Σε της (or Στης)Μαρίας είπα τα νέα" would be a more normal construction?


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## CrepiIlLupo

Okay, now I am a bit confused.  Forgive me Ireney if this is off subject, but...

Why does τής Μαρίας in this sentence look incorrect to me?
If I would say this sentence, I would be inclined to say τἠν εἰπα τα νἐα, ἠ εἰπα τα νἐα στἠν Μαρἰα.  The sentence in its original context to me would be translated as... "I gave the news of Maria", no?  If i've gone wrong, could someone please explain the reason?

As far as pronouns go, when they are direct or indirect objects they always come before the verb.  When using σε with a proper noun as a direct or indirect object, it comes after the verb.  This is how I understand the grammar.  Romantic languages also follow this construction.


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## modus.irrealis

GreedyGreen said:


> Hmmm... are you saying that "Σε της (or Στης)Μαρίας είπα τα νέα" would be a more normal construction?


Except that in modern Greek, prepositions take the accusative case (well, not entirely true because there are constructions imitating ancient Greek), so it would be στη Μαρία είπα τα νέα (and yes, the preposition σε before the definite article always become σ and is attached to the article). It's another, but more common, way of indicating the indirect object. But the genitive doesn't always correspond to the preposition σε, and other prepositions are used, e.g. της το πήρε "he took it from her" = το πήρε απ' τη Μαρία. And sometimes the genitive (especially with the pronouns) is the only option (e.g. with something like μη μου πεθάνεις which is roughly "don't you die on me", I don't think there's an equivalent with a preposition).



CrepiIlLupo said:


> Why does τής Μαρίας in this sentence look incorrect to me?
> If I would say this sentence, I would be inclined to say τἠν εἰπα τα νἐα, ἠ εἰπα τα νἐα στἠν Μαρἰα.  The sentence in its original context to me would be translated as... "I gave the news of Maria", no?  If i've gone wrong, could someone please explain the reason?


Using the accusative pronoun for the indirect object is dialectal -- normally the genitive pronoun is used (είπε σε μένα = μου είπε sort of thing). I believe your reading of the original sentence is possible because the genitive can be "dislocated" from the noun it modifies -- I would guess that that's why using the preposition is more common, to avoid the ambiguity between analyzing the genitive as possessive or as the indirect object.



> As far as pronouns go, when they are direct or indirect objects they always come before the verb.  When using σε with a proper noun as a direct or indirect object, it comes after the verb.  This is how I understand the grammar.  Romantic languages also follow this construction.


Although with some verb forms they come after but that's also true of French at least (πες μου = dis-moi). As nouns, the neutral position is after the verb but they can be moved around depending on context, like Kevman's example above.


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## GreedyGreen

modus.irrealis said:


> It's another, but more common, way of indicating the indirect object. But the genitive doesn't always correspond to the preposition σε, and other prepositions are used, e.g. της το πήρε "he took it from her" = το πήρε απ' τη Μαρία.


 
To go off on another aside then with these implied prepositions, is there any difference when written in Greek between "he took it *from* her" and "he took it _*for*_ her"... Would they both be just "της το πήρε"?

NB thanks everyone again for such illuminating responses!


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## CrepiIlLupo

My thoughts:

He took it _from _her: το πήρε από αυτἠν, or without the pronoun, 
το πἠρε απ' τἠν Μαρἰα

He took it _for _her: το πἠρε γἰα αυτἠν, or without the pronoun,
το πἠρε γἰα τἠν Μαρἰα

If one would say αυτἠν το πἠρε, I would take that to mean "He took it _to _her."

In all examples, Η Μαρἰα becomes the indirect object, so indirect object pronouns should be used.

Hope i've helped (and not hurt)!


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## anthodocheio

GreedyGreen said:


> is there any difference when written in Greek between "he took it *from* her" and "he took it _*for*_ her"... Would they both be just "της το πήρε"?


 


CrepiIlLupo said:


> My thoughts:
> 
> He took it _from _her: το πήρε από αυτἠν, or without the pronoun,
> το πἠρε απ' τἠν Μαρἰα *-> της το πήρε*
> 
> He took it _for _her: το πἠρε γἰα αυτἠν, or without the pronoun,
> το πἠρε γἰα τἠν Μαρἰα *-> της το πήρε*
> 
> If one would say αυτἠν το πἠρε, I would take that to mean "He took it _to _her." *What means "He took it to her"? You can't say "αυτήν το πήρε" in modern Greek. Sorry!*
> 
> In all examples, Η Μαρἰα becomes the indirect object, so indirect object pronouns should be used. *This sounds correct... (Sorry, I'm not good in grammar..)*


 
So you are right GreedyGreen! But, I don't think that we let things that ambiguous when talking. The context helps.. 

Actually, for the second case: _Πήρε (δώρο) ένα ρολόι για την Μαρία. -> Της πήρε ένα ρολόι / Της το πήρε δώρο._


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## pulcinella

GreedyGreen said:


> Another two genative examples given in my book are:
> *Της* είπα τα νέα
> &
> Είπα* της Μαρίας* τα νέα
> 
> ...meaning "I told her the news" and "I told Maria the news" respectively.
> 
> Given both examples are verb governed (non possessive) genatives, my question is, why does a pronoun get placed at the _start_ of the sentence whereas a name is placed _after_ the verb? Is there a reason, and indeed is this word order _always_ the case? Or is it just one of those things that *is* because it *is*?
> 
> Can I say *Της Μαρίας* είπα τα νέα and still be correct?


It's like that indeed. I don't know why but I could immagine that pronouns are "weaker" words than nouns and they cannot exist independently so they go before. Plesae don't take this as a scientific explanation but as my own personal thought.
Something similar happens with English language:
Give me the pen.
Give it to me.
*Give me it. (wrong)

Responding to the question if
*"Είπα της τα νέα"*
is correct, in standard Greek it is not used but in some dialects (eg Cretan, Cypriot), this is the standard and more commonly used form.


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## pulcinella

GreedyGreen said:


> [...] is there any difference when written in Greek between "he took it *from* her" and "he took it _*for*_ her"... Would they both be just "της το πήρε"?


Yes, that is right - "της το πήρε" can mean either.


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## pulcinella

modus.irrealis said:


> And sometimes the genitive (especially with the pronouns) is the only option (e.g. with something like μη μου πεθάνεις which is roughly "don't you die on me", I don't think there's an equivalent with a preposition).


This is a very interesting example. In this case "μου" does not substitute a word - this is an emphatic way to say "μηv πεθάνεις" making it sound more emotional, more affectionate, sth like saying, "Please don't die, don't do this to me, you're very important for me!"



> Using the accusative pronoun for the indirect object is dialectal -- normally the genitive pronoun is used (είπε σε μένα = μου είπε sort of thing).


There's further discussion on the dialectal use of the pronoun in the accusative form for the indirect object (in this case it would be με είπε, mainly used in the regions of the northern Greek) in the discussion "Με / μου έκανες".


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