# The sound of ㅅ and ㅈ



## YangMuye

Hi,
I have watched videos of the Korean language, found I can't hear the difference between ㅅ and ㅈ.

...

I think they are speaking two dialects and the second one seems to be more common. 

Are the ㅅ and ㅈ really the same?

Thanks.


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## AKoreanUser

No, they're not. Exactly different.

Seems that the first one is recorded by an American. and I'm sorry to say that because he's not native, he doesn't sound native.

The second is recorded by a Korean native so his pronunciation is completely fine. So you better be used to his pronunciation.

Anyway, ㅅ doesn't sound like [s] but more like [sh]. we have a consonant for [s], which is ㅆ. Umm.... this will be more specific.(It's likely for you to recognize this.)

[s] sound in "stranger" is different from [s] in "tense."
The first one sounds like [ㅅㄸ뤠인절]
The second sounds like [텐ㅆ]

And about [ㅈ], [(I can't type fhonatic word. so I underlined.)] in "television" is different from the one in "Jane."

[ㅈ] is more similer to the one in "television" than "Jane."

Hope it helps.


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## YangMuye

Thanks for your reply.



> Anyway, ㅅ doesn't sound like [s] but more like [sh]. we have a consonant for [s], which is ㅆ. Umm.... this will be more specific.(It's likely for you to recognize this.)


I call it a sound between [ts] and [tʃ]. When you make this sound, do you put the tip of your tongue behind(and touch) the lower tooth? English [tʃ] does not touch any tooth.



> [ㅈ] is more similer to the one in "television" than "Jane."


Do you want to express, Korean ㅈ is softer than English J. Articulated J sounds more like ㅉ if it is not voiced. Am I right?



> [s] sound in "stranger" is different from [s] in "tense."
> The first one sounds like [ㅅㄸ뤠인절]
> The second sounds like [텐ㅆ]


Umm....  If guess the "s" in http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/strange is more like a ㅆㄸ뤠인절..... Maybe.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/tense How about this one?
And http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/establish, there are two sounds. The second sound(a man's sound) maybe a ㅅ?

The main problem is: to my ear, ㅅ is not a not something like "s" but sounds like a "ts" or "tch". There is a "t"-like sound. Do you think http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/seoul is begin with ㅅ? I hear great different between s in English seoul and Korean seoul. The Korean one sounds like tsou-ul. The ts is sound like in word "what's".


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## AKoreanUser

From what you said, I think you got the point already. 
[ㅅ] is like [ts] as in "what's" and as you said, your tongue doesn't touch any tooth. Actually when you say "what's," especially on the "t" part, you put your tonue on the palate(they call a roof of the mouth a palate, anyway.) So without touching the palate, [ㅅ] is like [ts].

[ㅅ] as in "Establish" is quite good.(the man's voice)

The two "seoul" sounds, both seems to be said by a non-Korean. But still, the one which is more like Korean's sounds like [ㅅ].

At last, the last two links are good. The speaker is Korean.

and really finally, I recommend you to not use English sounds because it might confuse you more. There are so many Chinese people here in Korea and I think therefore there are many sites where you can learn Korean directly using Chinese. I mean you can learn it with Chinese people and their explanation. It'd more accurate.(I'm not sure about your Korean level.)

With no any knowledge of Chinese, I managed to find this site.
http://chinapost.kr/
Hope it helps.  Don't get me wrong: You're still welcome to this forum


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## YangMuye

Thanks very much. 




> I call it a sound between [ts] and [tʃ]. When you make this sound, do you put the tip of your tongue behind(and touch) the lower tooth? English [tʃ] does not touch any tooth.


This is a mistake, what I wanted to ask is, do you touch you lower tooth or lower alveolar ridge when you say ㅈ. I feel it's a little shrill than English [tʃ], but more back than [ts]. I'm not sure.




> The two "Seoul" sounds, both seems to be said by a non-Korean. But still, the one which is more like Korean's sounds like [ㅅ].
> [ㅅ] as in "Establish" is quite good.(the man's voice)


Umm, "ts" means, breaking the voice(like a final non released "t") before pronouncing "s". I heard the "t" sound in native's ㅅ.
As you think "Establish" "seoul" sounds like ㅅ, I think Korean does really listen to the sh sound. But the korean's ㅅ always contains a t. 



> and really finally, I recommend you to not use English sounds because it might confuse you more.


You are right. Next time, I will paste some pictures and audio records. Since I'm preparing for my mid-term exams, I have to come back to my school work first.



> There are so many Chinese people here in Korea and I think therefore there are many sites where you can learn Korean directly using Chinese. I mean you can learn it with Chinese people and their explanation. It'd more accurate.(I'm not sure about your Korean level.)


I don't know Korean at all until yesterday. I spend one hour practicing Hangul and then focus on the pronunciation.
Chinese explanation is terrible except for linguists's. What I need is to imitate natives's sound until they say "OK".
Next time, I will put my recordings and I wish you could help me.


BTW, I have analyzed someone's recording, found that the "ㅅ" is actually a s-s-t-ts-ts-ts- sound. ㅈ is t-ts-ts- sound. 
I really believe believe Korean does actually be hearing the "sh" sound, but there is always a "t" sound after s when speaking, which made my estimation go wrong. Anyway, I can't make the conclusion until I do more research.

if my hypothesis holds water, Korean may regard many "st" especially "str" sounds in English as a "ㅅ".

At last, again, Thank you very much.


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## AKoreanUser

> This is a mistake, what I wanted to ask is, do you touch you lower tooth or lower alveolar ridge when you say ㅈ. I feel it's a little shrill than English [tʃ], but more back than [ts]. I'm not sure.


Lower tooth? Lower alveolar ridge? I don't think either is right.(Actually I'm not even sure where a lower alveolar ridge is. I just know an alveolar ridge. Anyway,) I've never had like a research on my language, so I'd better give you a link, from www.learn-korean.net

http://www.korean-edu.com/lk/flmovie/bas1_1.swf

You can see the position of the tongue here. When you click the ㅈ icon at the bottom, you can see the tongue touches the roof of the mouth widely.

Looks you're confused why I said ㅅ is like [sh]. That's because I wanted to compare [ㅅ] and [ㅆ] by using [sh] and [s]. So I stand corrected. Actually both ㅅ and ㅆ has the "t" sound that you say. And why I said "t sound that you say" is that I think your definition of t sound and ours(Korean's) are a little bit different. But still, I think you got the right sound.

And to be more accurate, we do not listen [ㅅ]sound from [sh]. I just think it's just similar to [sh] Actually [ㅅ]sound is not in English sounds. If I must say so, I'd give these examples, "stranger" or "spawn."

Let me give two cents. Seems Engilsh is not your mother tongue. So that makes you learned it as a second language. When you learn second languages, pronunciation is not that important, you know. Try not to take this serious.

Take care


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## YangMuye

> I've never had like a research on my language, so I'd better give you a link, from www.learn-korean.net
> http://www.korean-edu.com/lk/flmovie/bas1_1.swf


The chart is not accurate, but the sound is great. Thank you very much.



> Looks you're confused why I said ㅅ is like [sh]. That's because I wanted to compare [ㅅ] and [ㅆ] by using [sh] and [s]. So I stand corrected. Actually both ㅅ and ㅆ has the "t" sound that you say. And why I said "t sound that you say" is that I think your definition of t sound and ours(Korean's) are a little bit different. But still, I think you got the right sound.


Sorry for my ambiguous words. My "sh" means the fricative sound of ㅅ. The "t" means a voiceless stop. Of course it does not mean "Korean's t". If you use a software to analyze the waveform of the sound, you will see a clear "t". You can divide Korean ㅅ into several pieces, and listen to each piece. I just feel that there is a t-like sound hidden in ㅅ. But yesterday the software told me it's really a "t" sound. ㅈ have "t" before "sh". And of course, the tongue position is also different. The pronunciation given by your link is very clear.
ㅆ do not have "t" sound, at least to my ear. Of course, ear is not reliably. We should trust tools.
I guess Korean listen "ㅅ" sound from "sh", which means if I just take off the stop sound in ㅅ, it's still a ㅅ, even it may sounds non-native. But if I take off the fricative, it will not be a ㅅ any more.
You may notice that I use quot mark for such phrase like "sh" "t"..., while I use [] mark for IPA.



> Let me give two cents. Seems Engilsh is not your mother tongue. So that makes you learned it as a second language. When you learn second languages, pronunciation is not that important, you know. Try not to take this serious. Take care


The most important thing for me is not learning Korean. People are always interesting in things they don't know.


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