# started raining / started to rain (gerund/infinitive)



## Magg

Hello,

I'm a bit confused with the following:

My grammar book reads there are some verbs than can be followed either by -ing or to-inf with little or no difference in meaning. I'll give you the examples and please have a look in order to see if you find what the little difference is:

*It has started raining / It has started to rain
John intends buying a house / John inteds to buy..
Don't bother locking the door / Don't bother to lock...*

Also there exists a slight differences concerning 'like':

_*I like doing something* = I enjoy it
*I like to do something * = I think it is good or right to do it_ 

*I like cleaning the kitchen / I like to cleant the kitchen.*

UUMMM... I'm not sure to grasp it.


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## esance

Hello Magg!

I have the same doubt and I hope that our friends might help us soon!

Cheers


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## tpmonline

... if you want to sound more up-to-date.  The other way of expressing it "to + inf." is starting to be archaic.
Regards,
tpmonline.


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## Masood

Magg said:
			
		

> Hello,
> 
> I'm a bit confused with the following:
> 
> My grammar book reads there are some verbs than can be followed either by -ing or to-inf with little or no difference in meaning. I'll give you the examples and please have a look in order to see if you find what the little difference is:
> 
> *It has started raining / It has started to rain
> John intends buying a house / John inteds to buy..
> Don't bother locking the door / Don't bother to lock...*
> 
> Also there exists a slight differences concerning 'like':
> 
> _*I like doing something* = I enjoy it
> *I like to do something * = I think it is good or right to do it_
> 
> *I like cleaning the kitchen / I like to cleant the kitchen.*
> 
> UUMMM... I'm not sure to grasp it.



_These all look the same to me! Same meaning either side._


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## tpmonline

Ooops!  Sorry, I meant the FIRST option:  "Don't bother locking", etc

SORRY!!!


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## dave

To my ear there is no difference at all, certainly not in meaning. Perhaps,as tpm says, the ING form is a little more common and the infinitive form slightly more formal, but both are good and widely used. In speech I would use them interchangeably, but in businesss writing I would probably favour the infinitive.


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## Magg

So, I don't know where those grammar books see the difference. If they say so, they should explain it properly. 

Anyway, you're native speakers, so I trust you.

Thanks


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## Vicki

Just a note:

_John intends *on* buying a house / John intends to buy..._
(You need the preposition "on" with the first sentence. And I agree, it does appear odd that "intend" takes a different preposition in the two examples.)

I agree with the others that for most practical purposes, the differences are minor. 

Magg, you said that your book claims, "there are _some verbs_ than can be followed either by -ing or to-inf with little or no difference in meaning." Do they offer any kind of system for recognizing which verbs allow this?    

Hope this helps.

Saludos.
Vicki


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## quehuong

Magg,

There is a difference between the two.  Be back soon.


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## jacinta

This is a question I have to stop and ponder because, just as Dave says, both are used and both are common.  So, *when* do we use them??

"*I like to read books." * In this sentence, I am saying that in general, this is a hobby that I do regularly and I like it.
*"I like reading books in the morning*".  Now, my emphasis is on "in the morning".  Reading books is still general and I could exchange it for "to read" but it sounds more formal.
I'm afraid this is one of those "native speaker" things.  There is no rule that tells you when to use the infinitive or the gerund.  It is a matter of "feeling" the language.  I wouldn't worry.  No matter which you use, you will be correct and understood.


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## Artrella

I was taught that there does exist a difference between ing/to inf.
LIKE
1) I like riding horses.  (the idea here is more general, mostly to talk about enjoyment)
2) I like to feel independent (suggests some special occasion, or to talk about the subject preferences, choices, habits)
REMEMBER
1) I remember locking the door (I locked the door: 1st action; I remember it:2nd action)
2) Remember to lock the door (1st. action: remember; 2nd action lock the door)
INTEND: NO DIFFERENCE
START:no difference, although they say that in BrE they prefer the ing form whereas AmE they prefer To Inf.
TRY
1) Try having a warm bath.  It'll calm you down. (here the ing suggests experimentation, testing, suggestion)
2) Try to work harder if you want to pass your exam (here the to inf. suggests attempt, effort)
Well, this is what I was taught.  I don't know if native speakers make this difference.  We, non-English speakers are taught English with all these detailed explanation, maybe sometimes so unnatural or far fetched!
Well, I hope this helps.  Bye


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## jacinta

Artrella said:
			
		

> I was taught that there does exist a difference between ing/to inf.
> 
> START:no difference, although they say that in BrE they prefer the ing form whereas AmE they prefer To Inf.




I am confused by this.  How would you use start+ing here?  If this is correct, "Start reading as soon as you sit down"  or "Start to read as soon as you sit down", then either one is correct but I wouldn't say that Americans prefer the infinitive.  *Start reading * would be much more commonly said.


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## gotitadeleche

Artrella said:
			
		

> I was taught that there does exist a difference between ing/to inf.
> LIKE
> 1) I like riding horses.  (the idea here is more general, mostly to talk about enjoyment)
> 2) I like to feel independent (suggests some special occasion, or to talk about the subject preferences, choices, habits)
> REMEMBER
> 1) I remember locking the door (I locked the door: 1st action; I remember it:2nd action)
> 2) Remember to lock the door (1st. action: remember; 2nd action lock the door)
> INTEND: NO DIFFERENCE
> START:no difference, although they say that in BrE they prefer the ing form whereas AmE they prefer To Inf.
> TRY
> 1) Try having a warm bath.  It'll calm you down. (here the ing suggests experimentation, testing, suggestion)
> 2) Try to work harder if you want to pass your exam (here the to inf. suggests attempt, effort)
> Well, this is what I was taught.  I don't know if native speakers make this difference.  We, non-English speakers are taught English with all these detailed explanation, maybe sometimes so unnatural or far fetched!
> Well, I hope this helps.  Bye



LIKE: I see no difference in the two options. "I like to ride horses" = "I like riding horses." "I like to feel independent" = "I like feeling independent."

REMEMBER: Yes, there is a difference here. "I remember locking the door" = I remember having locked the door." "I remember to lock the door" implies that I always remember to do it, in which case I think the sentence sounds more natural to say "I always remember to lock the door."

TRY: I see no difference. "Try taking (sounds more natural to me than having) a warm bath" = "Try to take a warm bath." Although the first option sounds more natural to me. To me it is the "try" word that implies experimentation, suggestion, or testing. "Try to work harder if you want to pass your exam" = "Try working harder if you want to pass your exam." Again, it is the "try" word that suggests making an attempt or more effort.

Some options sound more natural than others depending on the context, but I see little difference in meaning (except for the "remember" example.)


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## gddrew

Really I use them interchangeably and don't see a difference between them. "I like to read first thing in the morning" and "I like reading first thing in the morning" mean the same thing to me.

This perhaps is because the gerund is more prevalent in English because it is acceptable. It is correct to say _I like reading_ or _I like to read_ in English, while in Spanish the only acceptable form is _Me gusta leer_ (_Me gusta leyendo_ would be incorrect).


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## Artrella

They started building the house in January. 
I was starting to write a letter when the phone rang. 

These two examples are from a dictionary.  I wouldn't say "they started to build the ..." it doesn't seem natural for me (but, of course as English is not my native language I wouldn't find anything "natural") but let's say that "building the house" sounds better for me.  In the second case I cannot say "I was starting _writing....!_ Sometimes these differences are slightly ones proposed mainly by grammarians dealing with meanings, semantics and so on.  Even in Spanish sometimes I can't find them, but I think if there are two different ways of saying something there must have be a reason for it.  I think we should analyse each example in particular.


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## dave

Artrella said:
			
		

> They started building the house in January.
> I was starting to write a letter when the phone rang.
> 
> These two examples are from a dictionary.  I wouldn't say "they started to build the ..." it doesn't seem natural for me (but, of course as English is not my native language I wouldn't find anything "natural") but let's say that "building the house" sounds better for me.  In the second case I cannot say "I was starting _writing....!_ Sometimes these differences are slightly ones proposed mainly by grammarians dealing with meanings, semantics and so on.  Even in Spanish sometimes I can't find them, but I think if there are two different ways of saying something there must have be a reason for it.  I think we should analyse each example in particular.



*They started building the house in January
They started to build the house in January*

These are both correct, and would both be used. As I mentioned above, I may favour the first in speech, and the second in business correspondence, but might also use them interchangeably! I can still see no rule or significant difference here.

*I was starting writing a letter*
Yes, this sounds strange and would not be said, but I think this is simply because we would avoid using the two -ing forms in the same sentence.

What do we think?


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## jacinta

dave said:
			
		

> *They started building the house in January
> They started to build the house in January*
> 
> These are both correct, and would both be used. As I mentioned above, I may favour the first in speech, and the second in business correspondence, but might also use them interchangeably! I can still see no rule or significant difference here.
> 
> *I was starting writing a letter*
> Yes, this sounds strange and would not be said, but I think this is simply because we would avoid using the two -ing forms in the same sentence.
> 
> What do we think?



Yes, I agree completely, especially with the last example.  It *must* be a rule not to use two gerund forms in the same sentence because it sounds so weird.  Except of course if you are listing items like:  I like riding bikes, reading books, etc.  But not in your sentence:  I was starting writing.  No!  But, as you say, I cannot see any difference between the two:  *I started to write* or *I started writing*.  Both are the same to me.

A side note:  Some teachers like to make things more complicated than they really are!


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## quehuong

The explanations that my grammar book gives do not help me much.  So, I'll use examples in hope that they could help you see the difference.

*Infinitive complements and gerund complements are not identical twins.  Certain verbs take gerunds, certain verbs take infinitives, and certain verbs can take both.  The * indicates a particular sentence or phrase is ungrammatical.*

B wanted to talk to A.  
* B wanted talking to A.

A recalls having a cup of tea with B....
* A recalls to have a cup of tea with B...

I would like to walk on the moon.
* I would like walking on the moon.  (I don't think this sentence is grammatical.  If I'm wrong, let me know.)

A should stop drinking.
A should stop to drink.  (Both of these sentences are correct, but their meanings are different.)

B sees A talking with C.
B sees A to talk with C. [I don't think these two are alike.]

A enjoys jogging.
*A enjoys to jog.

A likes painting animals.
A likes to paint animals.  (These sentences sound alike, but the second one seems like it has more emphasis than the first sentence.  Perhaps it's because gerunds are nouns, and nouns certainly do not create actions.)  

I finish reading this book.
*I finish to read this book.
=========================================

dave,



> I was starting writing a letter
> Yes, this sounds strange and would not be said, but I think this is simply because we would avoid using the two -ing forms in the same sentence.



*I was starting writing a letter* sounds very ungrammatical to me.  

Example where two -ing forms are used:

After having been traveling all over the world to find..., B ......

=================================================

If I'm wrong, correct me.


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## garryknight

Vicki said:
			
		

> _John intends *on* buying a house / John intends to buy..._
> (You need the preposition "on" with the first sentence.


 Maybe "intends on" is grammatically correct in the USA (EE.UU.) but not here in Olde Englande. Here, you might say "John is intent on buying a house", but you'd say "John intends buying a house".


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## Vicki

garryknight said:
			
		

> Maybe "intends on" is grammatically correct in the USA (EE.UU.) but not here in Olde Englande. Here, you might say "John is intent on buying a house", but you'd say "John intends buying a house".


Thanks, Garry. I didn't know that. 

Saludos.
Vicki


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## Magg

Vicki said:
			
		

> Magg, you said that your book claims, "there are _some verbs_ than can be followed either by -ing or to-inf with little or no difference in meaning." Do they offer any kind of system for recognizing which verbs allow this?
> 
> Vicki



Well, it reads so concerning the verbs in the examples I gave above, but doesn't explain where the difference exactly is.

However, related to other verbs such as 'try + to/-ing', 'remember + to/-ing', etc, as Artrella has pointed, the book offers examples and explain them.


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## Magg

Artrella said:
			
		

> I was taught that there does exist a difference between ing/to inf.
> LIKE
> 1) I like riding horses.  (the idea here is more general, mostly to talk about enjoyment)
> 2) I like to feel independent (suggests some special occasion, or to talk about the subject preferences, choices, habits)
> REMEMBER
> 1) I remember locking the door (I locked the door: 1st action; I remember it:2nd action)
> 2) Remember to lock the door (1st. action: remember; 2nd action lock the door)
> INTEND: NO DIFFERENCE
> START:no difference, although they say that in BrE they prefer the ing form whereas AmE they prefer To Inf.
> TRY
> 1) Try having a warm bath.  It'll calm you down. (here the ing suggests experimentation, testing, suggestion)
> 2) Try to work harder if you want to pass your exam (here the to inf. suggests attempt, effort)
> Well, this is what I was taught.  I don't know if native speakers make this difference.  We, non-English speakers are taught English with all these detailed explanation, maybe sometimes so unnatural or far fetched!
> Well, I hope this helps.  Bye



Thanks Artrella, I also have this information but as for the verbs in my examples I have no idea.
Like you, sometimes I've thought that the -ing form after 'like' or 'love' is more common in British Englisn, whereas to-inf is in American English. I say so because I've always found this difference when reading British or American texts.


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## jacinta

garryknight said:
			
		

> Maybe "intends on" is grammatically correct in the USA (EE.UU.) but not here in Olde Englande. Here, you might say "John is intent on buying a house", but you'd say "John intends buying a house".




We would say here "*John intends to buy a house*" so, yes, you could change "to buy" to the gerund.  I agree that even here in the US, *intends on * is wrong.


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## jacinta

quehuong said:
			
		

> The explanations that my grammar book gives do not help me much.  So, I'll use examples in hope that they could help you see the difference.
> 
> *Infinitive complements and gerund complements are not identical twins.  Certain verbs take gerunds, certain verbs take infinitives, and certain verbs can take both.  The * indicates a particular sentence or phrase is ungrammatical.*
> 
> B wanted to talk to A.
> * B wanted talking to A.
> 
> A recalls having a cup of tea with B....
> * A recalls to have a cup of tea with B...
> 
> I would like to walk on the moon.
> ** I would like walking on the moon.  (I don't think this sentence is grammatical.  If I'm wrong, let me know.)* This sentence is fine.  In fact, I'm sure I've heard it said!
> 
> A should stop drinking.
> A should stop to drink.  (Both of these sentences are correct, but their meanings are different.)
> 
> B sees A talking with C.
> *B sees A to talk with C. [I don't think these two are alike.]* This would sound better as "B sees A about talking to C" Your example doesn't sound quite right.
> 
> A enjoys jogging.
> *A enjoys to jog.
> 
> A likes painting animals.
> A likes to paint animals.  (These sentences sound alike, but the second one seems like it has more emphasis than the first sentence.  Perhaps it's because gerunds are nouns, and nouns certainly do not create actions.)
> 
> *I finish reading this book.* This structure would be used in the past tense:  I finished reading this book.
> *I finish to read this book.
> =========================================
> 
> dave,
> 
> 
> 
> *I was starting writing a letter* sounds very ungrammatical to me.
> 
> Example where two -ing forms are used:
> 
> *After having been traveling all over the world to find..., B ......* Although this is correct grammatically, it is an awkward sentence.  The correct form would be "After having travelled all over the world" (at least it sounds better to me)
> =================================================
> 
> If I'm wrong, correct me.



Quehuong;  I like your explanation.  I just added a few corrections or suggestions.


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## Vicki

jacinta said:
			
		

> We would say here "*John intends to buy a house*" so, yes, you could change "to buy" to the gerund.  I agree that even here in the US, *intends on * is wrong.


Just to be clear, the sentence in question was "...intends on buying", in which "on" is acceptable in US usage.

Saludos.
Vicki


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## quehuong

Jacinta,

Thank you for the suggestions.  I need them.



> I finish reading this book. This structure would be used in the past tense: I finished reading this book.
> *I finish to read this book.


  You are absolutely right.  These verbs should be in the past tense.
========



> * I would like walking on the moon. *This sentence is fine. In fact, I'm sure I've heard it said!*



How about these examples:

1.  I would like eating.  
2.  I would like fishing.
3.  I would like singing.  

If I cut off the prepositional phrase "on the moon" then we are left with *I would like walking*.  This is why I still think the sentence is ungrammatical.
============

1.  B sees A talking with C.
2.  B sees A to talk with C. *This would sound better as "B sees A about talking to C" Your example doesn't sound quite right.*

*to see here in this case does not mean to perceive with the eye*.

Here's why I think it's right.  Let me change the letters/intitials.

Ben sees Amber to talk with Catherine means Ben is visiting Amber in order to have some moments to talk with Catherine.  

Substitution to prove that the structure of the sentence is correct.

Ben sees Amber to talk *with Catherine.*
Ben sees Amber to talk *with Amber.*
Ben sees Amber to talk *about their science project, Jane.  He's not seeing her because he wants to go out with her.*
Ben sees Amber to talk *about his problems.*  Amber is a shrink not his girlfriend.



> This would sound better as "B sees A about talking to C"


.

Could you explain to me why this sentence is grammatical?  I have a feeling that it needs a few more things to make it fully grammatical.  

======================

I agree with Vicki about the verb *intend (+) on*.  Intend on must be followed by a gerund to be grammatical.  

If I were technical, I would write:

I intend to buy a big house. [intend + infinitive to express something I have not done.]
I intended on buying that big house, but I changed my mind. [intend + gerund to express my former intention.]


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## Vicki

QH, here's a first-draft theory:





			
				quehuong said:
			
		

> I would like walking on the moon. _This sentence is fine. In fact, I'm sure I've heard it said! _
> 
> 
> 
> How about these examples:
> 
> 1.  I would like eating.
> 2.  I would like fishing.
> 3.  I would like singing.
> 
> If I cut off the prepositional phrase "on the moon" then we are left with *I would like walking*. This is why I still think the sentence is ungrammatical.
Click to expand...

_All three_ of the sentences sound odd and generally unacceptable—which is not to say there's not a forced context in which they might be reasonable assertions.

Given that "I would like walking on the moon" is somewhat acceptable—still unusual—the reason may be that the sentence means something like:

"I would like [the experience of] walking on the moon." Here, walking "on the moon" is understood as being a special experience above and beyond simply "walking". You could invent similar special circumstances for eating, fishing, singing, etc.

Test: Let's see if there a sentence like your example, 2, 3, 4 using a single word that suggests such an experience in itself.

"I would like levitating."
This still sounds a _little_ funny... but not half as bad as 2, 3, 4. The more I think about it, the more OK it sounds. 

And it definitely means something different than "I would like to levitate."

Hope this helps.

Saludos.
Vicki


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## aledu

Vicki said:
			
		

> QH, here's a first-draft theory:_All three_ of the sentences sound odd and generally unacceptable—which is not to say there's not a forced context in which they might be reasonable assertions.
> 
> Given that "I would like walking on the moon" is somewhat acceptable—still unusual—the reason may be that the sentence means something like:
> 
> "I would like [the experience of] walking on the moon." Here, walking "on the moon" is understood as being a special experience above and beyond simply "walking". You could invent similar special circumstances for eating, fishing, singing, etc.
> 
> Test: Let's see if there a sentence like your example, 2, 3, 4 using a single word that suggests such an experience in itself.
> 
> "I would like levitating."
> This still sounds a _little_ funny... but not half as bad as 2, 3, 4. The more I think about it, the more OK it sounds.
> 
> And it definitely means something different than "I would like to levitate."
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> Saludos.
> Vicki




I completely agree with you.   

Saludos.
aledu


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## jacinta

To me, by changing the verb to the conditional, "I would like", the structure and meaning changes.  "I like eating" is much more common than "I would like eating".  So, without knowing the exact grammar rule, I would say that with the verb tense of *would like* requires more information to make sense.

I would like to eat here every night if I could.  Yes
I would like eating here every night if I could.  Yes
I would like to ski more if I knew how.  Yes
I would like skiing more if I knew how.  Yes
I would like to fish in the river but not in the ocean. Yes
I would like fishing in the river but not in the ocean.  Yes

The use of the conditional I would say requires another clause after "I would like."

What do people think of this theory?


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## pen

jacinta said:
			
		

> I am confused by this.  How would you use start+ing here?  If this is correct, "Start reading as soon as you sit down"  or "Start to read as soon as you sit down", then either one is correct but I wouldn't say that Americans prefer the infinitive.  *Start reading * would be much more commonly said.



I egree with Jacinta "ING" is more commonly used here.
Pen


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## aledu

jacinta said:
			
		

> To me, by changing the verb to the conditional, "I would like", the structure and meaning changes.  "I like eating" is much more common than "I would like eating".  So, without knowing the exact grammar rule, I would say that with the verb tense of *would like* requires more information to make sense.
> 
> I would like to eat here every night if I could.  Yes
> I would like eating here every night if I could.  Yes
> I would like to ski more if I knew how.  Yes
> I would like skiing more if I knew how.  Yes
> I would like to fish in the river but not in the ocean. Yes
> I would like fishing in the river but not in the ocean.  Yes
> 
> The use of the conditional I would say requires another clause after "I would like."
> 
> 
> 
> What do people think of this theory?




I agree with you, it's very uncommon and sounds odd, but it does make some sense like Vicky points out.

*--Would you like fishing or skiing?
--I would like fishing!!*

Saludos.
aledu


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## Vicki

jacinta said:
			
		

> To me, by changing the verb to the conditional, "I would like", the structure and meaning changes.  "I like eating" is much more common than "I would like eating".  So, without knowing the exact grammar rule, I would say that with the verb tense of *would like* requires more information to make sense.
> 
> I would like to eat here every night if I could.  Yes
> I would like eating here every night if I could.  Yes
> I would like to ski more if I knew how.  Yes
> I would like skiing more if I knew how.  Yes
> I would like to fish in the river but not in the ocean. Yes
> I would like fishing in the river but not in the ocean.  Yes
> 
> The use of the conditional I would say requires another clause after "I would like."
> 
> What do people think of this theory?


Well, this is similar to what I posited above, that for "I would like [verb]ing" to be acceptable, the action referred to _usually_ has to be followed by a modifier to mark it as exceptional (if even moderately) in some way. 

But interestingly, a verb that connotes an action that is understood to be exceptional in its own way, in the context in which we're using it (for example, perhaps "levitate" wouldn't pass this test for humans with superpowers) might not need it. Then there's no need to modify "I would like [verb]ing", which would be acceptable. 

Saludos.
Vicki


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## acme_54

"*John intends buying a house *" is wrong, or at very least ungainly.


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