# Guadaletho - Andalusian language?



## Margrave

Hi! 

Wikipedia mentions that the name of the river Guadalete in the Andalusian language was Guadaletho. This kind of mention is repeated in several articles and texts in Internet. I could not find any well-founded book, research article that supports this "guadaletho" and/or mentions its supposed medieval Andalus source. Maybe I am missing something. Any help is welcome! 

Rgs

MG


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## Hulalessar

What the article says is that it was known as Guadaletho in the times of Al-Andalus which means when under Moorish control. The English Wikipedia says that means  "River of Forgetfulness" .


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## Margrave

@Hulalessar thank you. I welcome any information about the original source that mentions the name of this river as Guadaletho.


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## Hulalessar

Margrave said:


> @Hulalessar thank you. I welcome any information about the original source that mentions the name of this river as Guadaletho.



I'm afraid I can't help you with that. As to the precise etymology, you'll have to wait for someone who knows (Andalusian) Arabic to turn up.


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## Margrave

Thank you @Hulalessar.


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## Cossue

I'm guessing here... Probably they mean that the name _Guadalete _derives from an Arabic_ wadi Lete_, itself from a Latin _flumen Lethe_ vel sim. The river Limia/Lima in Galicia and Portugal was also named Lethe some 2200 years ago; allegedly, during an expedition, some Roman troopers feared this river because of the one which flowed through Hades, and so their commander (Decimus Junius Brutus Callaicus - Wikipedia) took the standard and crossed the river alone, then addressing them by their names, to show them that that river was not the Oblivium.


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## bearded

Cossue said:


> from a Latin _flumen Lethe_


In classical mythology, 'Lethe' was the subterranian ''river of oblivion'' : whoever drank its water would forget the past. The etymology mentioned in #2 is not absurd, but it seems to be a mixed one: 'guada' from Ar., and 'lethe' from Lat. river of oblivion - as Cossue said..  However, I surmise that Lete/Lethe was the original name of the river, and that the mythologic connection was but a sort of 'folk etymology'.


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## Hulalessar

Cossue said:


> I'm guessing here... Probably they mean that the name _Guadalete _derives from an Arabic_ wadi Lete_, itself from a Latin _flumen Lethe_ vel sim.



That seems a very reasonable explanation. It is by no means unknown for people moving into an area to keep the names of places and features like mountains and rivers. Indeed, place names, especially hydronyms, are often offered as evidence that a language was once spoken in an area where it is no longer spoken.

All we need is someone who knows Arabic to advise if there is any Arabic word for "forgetfulness" or "oblivion" which resembles "lethe" or "lete".


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## Hulalessar

bearded said:


> The etymology mentioned in #2 is not absurd, but it seems to be a mixed one.



Mixed etymologies for place names are not unknown. The classic one in Britain and places where the British settled is "River Avon" which etymologically is "River River". "Windermere" and "Ullswater" both indicate that a body of water is involved, but that does not stop them being referred to by some as "Lake Windermere" and "Lake Ullswater".


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## bearded

In Arabic (I have but a smattering) I only know the root nsā for 'forget'. But hopefully some experts or Arab natives will illuminate us further.


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## pollohispanizado

Hulalessar said:


> Mixed etymologies for place names are not unknown


_Guadalupe_ is indeed one of these hydronyms of mixed Arabic/Latin descent. Another is _Guadiana_, however this is Arabic/Celtic. The structure seems to be fairly common in post-Al-Ándalus Spanish hydronymy.


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## WadiH

pollohispanizado said:


> _Guadalupe_ is indeed one of these hydronyms of mixed Arabic/Latin descent. Another is _Guadiana_, however this is Arabic/Celtic. The structure seems to be fairly common in post-Al-Ándalus Spanish hydronymy.



I agree that only the first part is Arabic (_guad-_ from Arabic _wadi_ meaning [river] valley).  The second part is probably from an earlier language, like most river valleys in Iberia.  Most scholars seem to think it's the valley known in Arabic as _wadi lakka, _where the first battle between the invading Muslims and Visigoths is said to have taken place in 711.  The battle is mentioned in a Christian chronicle from as early as 745, which would mean it is almost certainly a pre-existing name.


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## djara

Wadi Hanifa said:


> _guad-_ from Arabic _wadi_ meaning [river] valley)


That is in standard Arabic. In Maghrebi Arabic, and clearly in Andalusian Arabic, "wād" means river, not a valley.


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## Margrave

@djara thank you. I had somehow the opposite information, that "wad" would mean valley and not necessarily river. Seems like there are dry valleys, without a river, which are denominated wad in Northern Africa. However, the sense of this word wad can vary according to the region. When you say that "clearly in Andalusian Arabic wad means river, not a valley", please could you share your source with us?


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## Margrave

Wadi Hanifa said:


> The battle is mentioned in a Christian chronicle from as early as 745, which would mean it is almost certainly a pre-existing name.


@Wadi Hanifa thank you. Please, which is this Christian chronicle from 745 that mentions the battle of Guadalete?


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## Hulalessar

Wikipedia says that in Andalusian Arabic _wadi _was used to mean a permanent river: Wadi - Wikipedia. Someone has inserted "citation needed"!


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## WadiH

djara said:


> That is in standard Arabic. In Maghrebi Arabic, and clearly in Andalusian Arabic, "wād" means river, not a valley.



Well you can't have a river without a valley.  In the eastern Arabic countries, _wadi _denotes a dry riverbed, i.e. one that contains flowing water only during the rainy season (although the valley/basin through which a river flows can still be called a _wadi_, e.g. _Wadi Al-Niil_).  There seem to be plenty of dry _wadis _in the North African desert regions, as Margrave mentioned.  The only difference seems to be that North African Arabic uses the word _wadi _for both dry and flowing riverbeds instead of only dry ones.



Margrave said:


> @Wadi Hanifa thank you. Please, which is this Christian chronicle from 745 that mentions the battle of Guadalete?



Sorry, should have said 754 not 745.  There is a wikipedia entry on it, and you can read an English translation of it here.

EDIT: Seems I misremembered (and misunderstood the wikipedia entry).  The battle is mentioned but not by name.  That said, if it is _wadi lakka_ then it seems unlikely to me that this was a new name.


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## Margrave

@Wadi Hanifa Christian Chronicle 754, thank  you very much, there is no problem.  Thank you for clarifying the meaning of wadi.

@Hulalessar, thank you, well  no citation means the information could be just a guess. We should take care. This is like the "guadaletho" mention in Wikipedia. It is there, but without citation of source. Well, I go with @Wadi Hanifa concerning the meaning of wadi.


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## I.K.S.

The misleading part in this topic is probably coming from Wikipedia's article indicating the river's name is pure Arabic without referring to any sources, a quick research shows that Juan Félix in his book (Origen y primeras poblaciones de España) p85 says that the river's name is half Greek and half Arabic, another important point he added earlier is that Pliny suggests there are two rivers called ''Lethèos'', one in Italy and the other is in Iberia, The Greek name which it carries ''lethe'' confirms its existence and origin.
This seems to be in a great accordance with bearded's assumption.


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## A User

Bisogna sempre considerare le variazioni del clima e della piovosità nel corso dei secoli.
Nel medioevo il prosperare delle comunità montane viene associato a temperature molto calde.
Conoscevo la parola «Wadi» (italianizzato in «Uadi») perché durante la guerra d’Etiopia gli Italiani associarono essi al concetto di «lama»: grossi canaloni secchi che in caso di pioggia (rara) diventavano fiumi in piena.
La morfologia del territorio può cambiare nel tempo in modo imprevedibile: il riporto di detriti in certi punti può appiattire il profilo, mentre il regime impetuoso può scavare gole profonde in altre.
In italiano questo comportamento del fiume viene chiamato "regime torrentizio" (un grosso fiume si può ridurre a un rigagnolo in certe stagioni), e si verifica principalmente per la mancanza a monte di nevi perenni o di ghiacciai. Per metonimia il significato oscilla da quello di fiume a quella di valle e, ovviamente, il significato va contestualizzato: la battaglia del Guadalete si svolse nella valle, non nel fiume.

In Italiano esiste la parola «guado» [latino VADVM], e un fiume si attraversa dove è più basso.


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## Rocko!

Tesoro de la lengua Castellana (dictionary). 1611:


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## bearded

Rocko! said:


> Tesoro de la lengua Castellana


''...oluidando las injurias'' is a plausible explanation of the -lethe part.


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## Margrave

Thank you for the valuable input.


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