# Communism has been messing up country



## Indio Campero

Delinquency in Argentina has been fed by our extra subtle comunism for YEARS. Our government is so pathetic that pretends to be right when indeed it is extra left. 

When a policeman kills a raper, the policeman is called nazi, but when a robber kills anyone, he is free within a matter of weeks.

That's not fair. 

Bur everybody's prompt to run to the Police whenever a delinquent mess with them , even those who criticize the Poilice or any kind of authority.

If there was more control, if the army as well as the Police were given more power, we could enjoy safety on our streets. 

Who agrees with me?


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## siljam

You should get a time machine and turn back to 1977. On that date you´ll
be very happy. You can even denounce your friends, relatives and colleagues
as "subversives" and made them killed.


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## cuchuflete

Years?  The Videla years?  The Menem years?  The Perón years?

Siljam has provided a very insightful reply.

I spent lots of time in Bs. As. in 1977, and you were able to safely walk the streets unless someone with political power, or a gun, or a personal grudge or different political posture didn't like you. There was no sign of communism or other "leftist" influence behind this form of safety.


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## katiebridle

Indio Campero said:
			
		

> When a policeman kills a raper, the policeman is called nazi, but when a robber kills anyone, he is free within a matter of weeks.



how is that related to "extra-subtle communism"??

I can see no evidence for communism in any of the examples you give..and I am not sure that heading in the direction of martial law is the solution to any of society's problems.  History bears witness to that.


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## Indio Campero

I don't believe any of you guys who have replied to my post, may have the necessary skills as to SEE that marxism has been involved with everything since Marx's theories arose in this world. You guys ain't got no partiality. You can't see that what i posted has mostly to do with the  left thinking that this country is proud to have, and which is the cause of this pathetic fate that we've got to go through thanks to the "utopy"

I was not talking about military governments killing people as a solution,  so it bugs me that you are take things to such a stupid extreme.


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## zebedee

Indio Campero said:
			
		

> If there was more control, if the army as well as the Police were given more power, we could enjoy safety on our streets.
> 
> Who agrees with me?


 


			
				Indio Campero said:
			
		

> I was not talking about military governments killing people as a solution, so it bugs me that you are take things to such a stupid extreme.


 
You seem to have confused yourself a bit. You were the one who "took things to such a stupid extreme". The other foreros merely commented on your inconsistencies. 

Maybe you'd like to think through your ideas a bit more and try to express them more clearly.

Un saludo,
zeb


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## Hakro

I think I understand what you mean, Indio Campero. The situation in Finland is not as harsh but the idea is the same: real criminals can easily slip out but the ordinary people pay expensively for a small mistake. 

It seems to be a global development, at least in most European countries.


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## katiebridle

Hakro said:
			
		

> real criminals can easily slip out but the ordinary people pay expensively for a small mistake.



I'm interested Hakro.  What exactly is the difference between "real criminals" and the "ordinary people" to whom you refer.
Surely a criminal is someone who breaks the law, regardless of the crime? 

And Indio C, what is "the utopy?"  I can't find a definition of it in my dictionaries.

And what are "the necessary skills" we should possess in order to reply to your thread?  If you don't think anyone here capable of replying to your ideas, then you really shouldn't bother posting..


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## Hakro

katiebridle said:
			
		

> I'm interested Hakro. What exactly is the difference between "real criminals" and the "ordinary people" to whom you refer.
> Surely a criminal is someone who breaks the law, regardless of the crime?


 In my opinion, for example a driver who is speeding is breaking the law but he's not a criminal. A real criminal, the worst kind, is someone who uses violence against other people. Between these there are many different levels of crimes but the punishment doesn't always follow the level of the crime.


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## katiebridle

Hakro said:
			
		

> In my opinion, for example a driver who is speeding is breaking the law but he's not a criminal. A real criminal, the worst kind, is someone who uses violence against other people. Between these there are many different levels of crimes but the punishment doesn't always follow the level of the crime.



If the speeding driver hits someone and kills them then does that make him a criminal?


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## Hakro

katiebridle said:
			
		

> If the speeding driver hits someone and kills them then does that make him a criminal?


Not necessarily because he hasn't had an intention to kill or hurt anybody. It's an accident. And I was speaking about speeding without any consequences, or I could have taken illegal parking as an example.


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## katiebridle

Hakro said:
			
		

> Not necessarily because he hasn't had an intention to kill or hurt anybody. It's an accident. And I was speaking about speeding without any consequences, or I could have taken illegal parking as an example.



I really can't agree with you on that one.  Speeding is like walking around with a loaded gun.  Of course you don't set out to kill someone, but by virtue of speeding you increase the likelihood of it happening.  And their must be consequences for that.
However, I see your point on illegal parking..

I fear I have led us very off-topic.. sorry and thanks for your lucid and comprehensive reply!


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## Indio Campero

Hakro said:
			
		

> I think I understand what you mean, Indio Campero. The situation in Finland is not as harsh but the idea is the same: real criminals can easily slip out but the ordinary people pay expensively for a small mistake.
> 
> It seems to be a global development, at least in most European countries.


 

Wise words, wise words. Hakro have spoken wisely. This is the sole reply i myself consider as right focused on the original idea i tried to express. Hakro has got it! he got it! Thank you Hakro. I wish there was more people like you and our world would be better. 

greetings form Argentina
Indio Campero


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## siljam

But what have to do criminality with communism?. At less you think that 
every lefty is a criminal, or every criminal is a communist., or to be communist is in itself a crime?. I don't get it.


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## BasedowLives

so in argentina workers control the  means of production?


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## siljam

In Argentina, workers don't control even their rectums.


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## cuchuflete

Argentina has "enjoyed" decades of populism/statism, intermixed with swings to the left and to the extreme right.  I leave it to the better informed Argentines to characterize the current regime.   The reference to "extra subtle comunism (_sic_)" is too subtle for most of us mortals to relate to crime.

I suppose that our failure to embrace the posture of the writer of the clarion call for more power to the army makes us all communist sympathizers.  So be it.  The last time the army had unfettered power, they turned the country into a morass of fear, abuse, illegality and terror.  I'm glad I'm so inept and incompetent as to remember that.


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## nabi

YO creo el comunismo es el sistema mas injusto  ya que el govierno toma lo que no le pertence y lo distribuye como bien le parezca si esos goviernos sirvieran de algo prevalecerian y vencieran al capitalismo pero gracias a Dios no suscede asi.

si no estan de acuerdo borrenlo. gracias por su atencion


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## nabi

he visto lo que hace el comunismo y no me gusta, este sistema hace que pèrsonas construyan botes en los patios de sus casas y se lancen al mar a otro pais para buscar un inmejorable estilo de vida.


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## Indio Campero

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Argentina has "enjoyed" decades of populism/statism, intermixed with swings to the left and to the extreme right. I leave it to the better informed Argentines to characterize the current regime. The reference to "extra subtle comunism (_sic_)" is too subtle for most of us mortals to relate to crime.
> 
> I suppose that our failure to embrace the posture of the writer of the clarion call for more power to the army makes us all communist sympathizers. So be it. The last time the army had unfettered power, they turned the country into a morass of fear, abuse, illegality and terror. I'm glad I'm so inept and incompetent as to remember that.


 
People who asociattes army power with Nazi murder, is not as wise as they claim- If you could just see things impartially, you would get the matter i am talking about. But if you see an uniform and autimatically think that that is Genocide, and therefore you are prompt to excuse delinquency, THEN you are taking things to the extreme, and are not able to analize the matter. You are so brainwashed man, and that is marxism`s fault. Of course, you cannot find it out...we are asking for too much  ;-)


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## Indio Campero

BasedowLives said:
			
		

> so in argentina workers control the means of production?


 
No, but goverments make WORKERS think (trhough worker associations , o sindicatos) that they will get the control. ANd also government takes power away from Police and than delinquency flourishes, and nobody watchs out  piqueteros, they do whatever they want....comunist or leftist parties are also flourishing since a lot of decades ago, and than the general thinking here is that everybody can make a "revolution" meaning by "revolution" that they are allowed to burn down banks, houses, to beat people, to destroy monuments, statues, sculptures.....haha! do you get it? is that a real "revolution"? have you watched the news when Bush came to this country? have you been noticed of what this damn left people did in Mar del Plata, burning things and destroying everything? Somebody here said to me that they were like animals, but ANIMALS are so much better than them. And by the way, i like a dog or a pig THOUSANDS of times more than "communists" or "leftists"

The thing is that i am kinda ashamed to be Argentinian BECUASE OF THOSE DAMN "COMMUNISTS" . So any person in the world would moke me and have a bad concept of me JUST BECUASE I AM ARGENTINIAN, and this all THANKS TO that left crap......do you get it now? do you get it?


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## cuchuflete

Indio Campero said:
			
		

> People who asociattes army power with Nazi murder, is not as wise as they claim- If you could just see things impartially, you would get the matter i am talking about. But if you see an uniform and autimatically think that that is Genocide, and therefore you are prompt to excuse delinquency, THEN you are taking things to the extreme, and are not able to analize the matter. You are so brainwahes man, and thas, marxism fault. Of course, you cannot find it out, Only God knows why. ;-)



How curious that you should quote my post, and then talk about topics that were not in it, nor even implied by it.  If that is an example of the sort of rigorous analytical reasoning you seek, than the example offered is puzzling.

I never thought of nor wrote Nazi in talking about the dark and painful history of your country under military dictatorship. I don't believe Videla, Massera, and the rest of that barbarous crew were Nazis.  They were heinous barbarians for sure, but I don't think they held Nazi or any other ideology.  They appeared driven by bloodlust, paranoia, greed, and other low instincts.  

When I see a uniform, I don't think of genocide, unless it is a uniform in a movie or newsreel from Hitler's Germany.  If you read with the slightest attention to the words I wrote, you will find not a single mention of genocide.   

Nor did I speak in favor of delinquency.   I certainly didn't advocate excusing it.   If I am brainwashed by Marxism, why is it that I totally disagree with it, both as an ideology and as a horribly flawed economic system?

I did say that when the armed forces had absolute power, they did horrendous things to their fellow Argentines.  You may choose to believe that or not.  You might ask your fellow citizens what went on in your country in the late 1970s.


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## luis masci

Indio, me parece que vos estás enfocando todas las broncas que como argentinos tenemos por la corrupción, delincuencia, violencia callejera, etc. que obedece a razones que sería muy largo de tratar aquí, pero que tiene más que ver con la pregunta ¿que nos pasó a los argentinos que teniendo todo para ser un país prospero (un territorio grande y rico, poca población, sin problemas raciales ni religiosos) estamos entre los más pobres del mundo?
Creo que estás mezclando un poco las cosas y  sobre estimando a minúsculos grupos violentos, como los que provocaron desordenes en Mar del Plata (apenas un puñado de mocosos) que no son comunistas sino idiotas o delincuentes, o a los piqueteros que son también muy pocos porcentualmente hablando.
Si vos pensás que esos grupitos son los culpables de todo...allá vos hermano (pero la estás pifeando de aqui a la Quiaca)​


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## the rock

luis masci said:
			
		

> Indio, me parece que vos estás enfocando todas las broncas que como argentinos tenemos por la corrupción, delincuencia, violencia callejera, etc. que obedece a razones que sería muy largo de tratar aquí, pero que tiene más que ver con la pregunta ¿que nos pasó a los argentinos que teniendo todo para ser un país prospero (un territorio grande y rico, poca población, sin problemas raciales ni religiosos) estamos entre los más pobres del mundo?
> Creo que estás mezclando un poco las cosas y  sobre estimando a minúsculos grupos violentos, como los que provocaron desordenes en Mar del Plata (apenas un puñado de mocosos) que no son comunistas sino idiotas o delincuentes, o a los piqueteros que son también muy pocos porcentualmente hablando.
> Si vos pensás que esos grupitos son los culpables de todo...allá vos hermano (pero la estás pifeando de aqui a la Quiaca)​



argentina ha tenido una recuperacion sosteniada por kirchner, el corralito dejo a la nacion con bajos indices de consumo y de inversion, hoy en dia argentina es un pais que ha entrado en una recuperacion clave en donde el turismo se ha reactivado, la inversion extranjera ha aumentado, ademas el cosumo nacional y el ahorro lo que hacen parte fundamental de pib probablemente ha sido mejorado, por alli lei en un peridico que los argentinos tienen buenas proyecciones de govierno para los proximos años, esto se debe tambien a las ideas sociales y democratas que kirchner poco poco a introducido en la legislacion nacional, todo esto lo he dicho porque argentina no es uno de los paises mas pobres del mundo, si es verdad que hay pobreza pero estoy seguro que hay otros paises que quisieran los indices macroeconomicos de los argentinos, algo muy importante la inflacion ha disminuido un poco lo que aumenta el consumo.

entiendo tu punto a colombia le pasa lo mismo, lo tenemos todo, pero hoy endia hemos hidomejorando en la administracion de los recursos que tenemos, nuestra economia se hasolidificado un poco, y fijense que curioso aqui este es un gobierno capitalista pero con sentido social, tanto que el orden piblico se ha recuperado.

no se trata de comunismo, ni de socialismo, ni capitalismo, no se trata de una ideologia personalizada de un governante se trata de elegir bien la politica fiscal,politica monetaria, y la politica de comercio exterior.


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## diegoitalo

Indio Campero said:
			
		

> No, but goverments make WORKERS think (trhough worker associations , o sindicatos) that they will get the control. ANd also government takes power away from Police and than delinquency flourishes, and nobody watchs out piqueteros, they do whatever they want....comunist or leftist parties are also flourishing since a lot of decades ago, and than the general thinking here is that everybody can make a "revolution" meaning by "revolution" that they are allowed to burn down banks, houses, to beat people, to destroy monuments, statues, sculptures.....haha! do you get it? is that a real "revolution"? have you watched the news when Bush came to this country? have you been noticed of what this damn left people did in Mar del Plata, burning things and destroying everything? Somebody here said to me that they were like animals, but ANIMALS are so much better than them. And by the way, i like a dog or a pig THOUSANDS of times more than "communists" or "leftists"
> 
> The thing is that i am kinda ashamed to be Argentinian BECUASE OF THOSE DAMN "COMMUNISTS" . So any person in the world would moke me and have a bad concept of me JUST BECUASE I AM ARGENTINIAN, and this all THANKS TO that left crap......do you get it now? do you get it?


i'm sorry if somebody doesn't understand spanish, but i need to wite this in my language.
Indio Pampero, veo que estás un poco irritado. tu forma de pensar es tan vieja (quiero decir que existe hace mucho tiempo, no que es antigua...) y está lleno el país, y el mundo de gente como vos: se llaman reaccionarios (ni nazis, ni fachos, ni pro-capitalistas, etc), es solamente una serie de reacciones individualistas y abruptas que no tienen base ni política, ni ideológica ni filosófica, o sea que no te llevan aningún lado.
creo que de la misma manera analizás una situación política de un país donde siempre, pero siempre siempre, gobernó la derecha y ultra derecha (a veces conservadosres y a veces liberales) y que recurrió hasta a la violencia que vos pedís pera "salvar el país" y simplificás que haya choreos o "insegurdad" en las calles porque el gobierno es de izquierda...y te olvidás de los que tienen "inseguridad" de trabajar, "inseguridad" de darles bien de comer a los hijos y demás.


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## RAPHUS CUCULLATUS

Indio Campero said:
			
		

> The thing is that i am kinda ashamed to be Argentinian BECUASE OF THOSE DAMN "COMMUNISTS" . So any person in the world would *moke* me and have a bad concept of me JUST BECUASE I AM ARGENTINIAN, and this all THANKS TO that left crap......do you get it now? do you get it?



Yes, based on this analysis, one can understand how well moked a person could become.  The answer lies in the application of right-handed syntax, a dab of lard, and mind stretching exercises.  The laxative effects should cure the propensity to feel like this--

"And by the way, i like a dog or a pig THOUSANDS of times more than "communists" or "leftists"


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## drei_lengua

katiebridle said:
			
		

> I'm interested Hakro. What exactly is the difference between "real criminals" and the "ordinary people" to whom you refer.
> Surely a criminal is someone who breaks the law, regardless of the crime?
> 
> And Indio C, what is "the utopy?" I can't find a definition of it in my dictionaries.
> 
> And what are "the necessary skills" we should possess in order to reply to your thread? If you don't think anyone here capable of replying to your ideas, then you really shouldn't bother posting..


 
Coming late to the party... they meant "utopia"


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## Hakro

drei_lengua said:
			
		

> Coming late to the party... they meant "utopia"


As you may have seen, you came late to the party. There are so strong opinions fighting that it seems to be useless to go on. What a shame.


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## calzetin

nabi said:
			
		

> he visto lo que hace el comunismo y no me gusta, este sistema hace que pèrsonas construyan botes en los patios de sus casas y se lancen al mar a otro pais para buscar un inmejorable estilo de vida.



I think you are not right there. It is POVERTY what makes people do that and not communism. 
Is Morocco a comminist country? I believe it is not, and yet many Moroccans reach the Spanish coast every week hoping to find a better life in Spain.

Communism and capitalism are theoretical economic systems. That means, they are models for economists and politicians to play with. They are just a bunch of ideas you read on books on economy (and politics).

At the end of the day is the game of politics what decides who is poor and who is not, and it is corruption and criminals and economic interests what kill people, not an economic system.


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## annettehola

I am "a leftist" in politics. I love animals. I also like people who can start a discussion and support it with intelligent arguments. I don't think it right to compare animals and peoples' political views. Simply because I fail to see where the connection between the two lies. I do not vote. The reason is that I do not believe in politics in the sense that it will change things. To me, politics is more like a balance. A balance between two extremes - left and right - and since I cannot wholeheartedly support either, I just don't participate actively. It is more as a person that I show my political colour. I believe not in any -ism whatsoever. And I am of the firm conviction, that *behind every revolution there is another revolution.*
That's all I have to say to you about this. 
I think accept of all despite political colour is a very great thing because it's a recognition of the fact that "this living thing art thou."
Annette


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