# I have been working



## billioon

Hi
"I have been working for two months"
I wondered, is it another way to say it and right:
"I work since the last june"
?


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## brian

Ciao billioon,

Forse questo thread può aiutarti.   Fammi sapere se hai (tu abbia?) bisogno di più spiegazione.


Brian


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## Moogey

brian8733 said:
			
		

> Ciao billioon,
> 
> Forse questo thread può aiutarti.   Fammi sapere se hai (tu abbia?) bisogno di più spiegazione.
> 
> 
> Brian


Actually, the rest of it probably isn't helpful, in this case, only your post is 

Brian's post

-M


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## billioon

brian8733 said:
			
		

> Ciao billioon,
> 
> Forse questo thread può aiutarti.  Fammi sapere se hai (tu abbia?) bisogno di più spiegazione.
> 
> 
> Brian


 
Thanks Brian. Check this out, please

I'm working since last June

I think you speak a good Italian, so, please, tell me... how do you see this word (since) in Italian.

ciao


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## brian

billioon said:
			
		

> Thanks Brian. Check this out, please
> 
> I'm working since last June
> 
> I think you speak a good Italian, so, please, tell me... how do you see this word (since) in Italian.
> 
> ciao


 Penso che tu voglia dire: _Lavoro dal giugno scorso_.  Ho ragione?  Poi vorresti dire: _*I've been working* since last June._  Questa frase intende dire che hai cominciato a lavorare al giugno e che lavori ancora.  È giusto?

La parola "since" in questo contesto è perfetta, ma il tenso del verbo non ha senso.  In italiano, se l'azione non è finita, si usa il tenso presento (_lavoro_), ma in inglese si usa il tenso passato progressivo (_I have been working_).  Se l'azione è finita, poi in italiano si usa il passato prossimo (_ho lavorato_), ma in inglese si usa il passato semplice (_I worked_); ma in questo caso, non si può usare la parola "since"--_I worked since last June. _ 


Brian


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## Moogey

Brian, sono d'accordo con te. La tua frase è quella di cui pensavo.

-M


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## brian

Grazie, Moogey.  Ho appena aggiunto un po' alla mia risposta.  Questo costrutto è molto difficile capire, sia per gli italiani che per chi parlano inglese!


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## Moogey

brian8733 said:
			
		

> Grazie, Moogey.  Ho appena aggiunto un po' alla mia risposta.  Questo costrutto è molto difficile a capire, sia per gli italiani che per chi parla inglese!


Bravo Brian. Alcune correzioni (ma aspetta che un madrelingua le confermi)

-M


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## billioon

brian8733 said:
			
		

> Penso che tu voglia dire: _Lavoro dal giugno scorso_. Ho ragione? Poi vorresti dire: _*I've been working* since last June._ Questa frase intende dire che hai cominciato a lavorare al giugno e che lavori ancora. È giusto?
> 
> La parola "since" in questo contesto è perfetta, ma il tenso tempo del verbo non ha senso. In italiano, se l'azione non è finita, si usa il tenso tempo presentoe (_lavoro_), ma in inglese si usa il tensopo passato progressivo (_I have been working_). Se l'azione è finita, poi in italiano si usa il passato prossimo (_ho lavorato_), ma in inglese si usa il passato semplice (_I worked_); ma in questo caso, non si può usare la parola "since"--_I worked since last June. _
> 
> 
> Brian


 
You've been deceived from the English word "tense" in this case, I think...am I mistaken?

Si, è giusto. So then, we have just a single way to express it in English and that 's "I've been working since last June". Or maybe it could be even said "I've worked since last June". Is it?

I'm pretty sure I made lots of mistakes, do you mind to correct them? thanks


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## brian

billioon said:
			
		

> You've been deceived from by the English word "tense" in this case, I think...am I mistaken?
> 
> Si, è giusto. So then, we have just a single way to express it in English and that 's "I've been working since last June". Or maybe it could be even said (better: one could even say) "I've worked since last June". Is it? Is this OK / Is this right?
> 
> I'm pretty sure I made lots of mistakes, do you mind to correcting them? Thanks


 No, non hai sbagliato...intendevo dire "tempo."  Grazie.  E complimenti per il tuo inglese!

_I've worked since last June_  -- non è giusta.

Se l'azione non è finita, si usa solamente il (tempo) passato progressivo--_I have been working_--perché l'azione continua ancora.

Ma se l'azione è finita, ma nel tempo passato l'azione era continua (continuativa?), poi in inglese si usa il piuccheperfetto progressivo (past perfect progressive): _I had been working at John's Market since June, but last week I quit = Avevo lavorato a John's Market da giugno, ma ho lasciato la settimana scorsa.  _(Penso che questa frase italiana sia giusta!)

Spero che questi esempi ti abbiano aiutato!


Brian


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## Necsus

Moogey said:
			
		

> Brian, sono d'accordo con te. La tua frase è quella a cui pensavo.





			
				brian8733 said:
			
		

> Grazie, Moogey. Ho appena aggiunto qualcosa alla mia risposta. Questo costrutto è molto difficile da capire, sia per gli italiani che per chi parlano inglese!





			
				brian8733 said:
			
		

> Se l'azione non è finita, si usa solamente il (tempo) passato progressivo--_I have been working_--perché l'azione continua ancora.
> Ma Se l'azione è finita, ma nel tempo passato l'azione era continuata (prolungata), poi in inglese si usa il piuccheperfetto progressivo (past perfect progressive): _I had been working at John's Market since June, but last week I quit = (Avevo lavorato) Lavoravo al John's Market da giugno, ma ho lasciato (mi sono licenziato/me ne sono andato) la settimana scorsa. _(Penso che questa frase italiana sia giusta!)


Some suggestions..!


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## Moogey

Grazie Necsus! Il mio errore era sciocco! Bentornato!

-M


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## Necsus

Moogey said:
			
		

> Grazie Necsus! Il mio errore era sciocco! Bentornato!


Grazie, Moogey! (ma riparto...)


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## kan3malato

[I said:
			
		

> I've worked since last June[/I]  -- non è giusta.


HI!! Brian
Certainly you was right (you are American and I'm not ).
But now I'm a bit confused.. Yes "I've(sorry) been working since last June" is better (or perfect)this is a fact.
But are you really sure that "I've worked since last June" is really wrong? I mean...When I was to school I remember very well teachers (all of them were English or Irish..) said "often present perfect and present perfect continuous have the  same meaning (little difference) you can use both (not always,though)".
Now I've just found this one:LIVE / WORK 
non fanno differenza tra le due forme. Entrambe sono corrette:
THEY HAVE BEEN WORKING IN A BANK FOR 3 YEARS. 
THEY HAVE WORKED IN A BANK FOR 3 YEARS.
LAVORANO IN BANCA DA TRE ANNI.
from  http://72.14.221.104/search?q=cache...sent+perfect&hl=it&ct=clnk&cd=10&client=opera
I know that I can say for example:I’VE KNOWN SARAH FOR FIVE YEARS. 
And I can't:
I’VE BEEN KNOWING … 
CONOSCO SARA DA CINQUE ANNI. or something like that.....
Unless that the difference is given between "since or for".(in the example above I've worked/been working).

ripeto!! il present perfect continous è perfetto nel nostro caso,volevo però  sapere se il present perfect è totalmente sbagliato o no.

Thanks


ps
Correct my English mistakes Please


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## brian

kan3malato said:
			
		

> HI!! Brian
> Certainly you was were right (you are American and I'm not ).
> But now I'm a bit confused.. Yes "I've(sorry) been working since last June" is better (or perfect); this is a fact.
> But are you really sure that "I've worked since last June" is really wrong? I mean...When I was to at/in school I remember very well teachers (all of them were English or Irish..) said "often present perfect and present perfect continuous have the  same meaning (little difference); you can use both (not always,though)".
> Now I've just found this one:LIVE / WORK
> non fanno differenza tra le due forme. Entrambe sono corrette:
> THEY HAVE BEEN WORKING IN A BANK FOR 3 YEARS.
> THEY HAVE WORKED IN A BANK FOR 3 YEARS.
> LAVORANO IN BANCA DA TRE ANNI.
> from  http://72.14.221.104/search?q=cache:MgVr6F6B4GcJ:www.arch.unige.it/did/linguastraniera/
> progpierini/materialedid/
> 16presentperfectcont.pdf+present+perfect+continuous+e+present+perfect&hl=it&ct=clnk&cd=10&client=opera
> I know that I can say for example:I’VE KNOWN SARAH FOR FIVE YEARS.
> And I can't say:
> I’VE BEEN KNOWING …
> CONOSCO SARA DA CINQUE ANNI. or something like that.....
> Unless that the difference is given between "since" or and "for".(in the example above I've worked/been working).
> 
> ripeto!! il present perfect continous è perfetto nel nostro caso,volevo però  sapere se il present perfect è totalmente sbagliato o no.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> ps
> Correct my English mistakes Please


Ciao kan3malato,

Sei perfettamente ragione!  La differenza principale fra le due frasi è l'uso di "since" e di "for."  MA, anche nel caso di "for," ci sono alcune sfumature che non so se io possa spiegarti.

_They have been working in a bank for 3 years. _

...significa cominciano a lavorare in banca tre anni fa, e ci lavorano ancora.  La frase, usando il present perfect continuous, enfatizza il fatto che ci lavorano _ancora_, e/o il fatto che ci lavorano _da tre anni_.

_They have worked in a bank for 3 years. 

_...significa la stessa cosa, ma usando il present perfect enfatizza il fatto che _in banca_ è dove lavorano (e/o in minore misura [to a lesser extent?] il fatto che ci lavorano _da tre anni_, come l'esempio sopra).

_They have worked in a bank since last June. 

_...significa _Lavorano in banca dal giugno scorso._

_They worked in a bank since last June. _

Non riesco a offrire un contesto in cui questa frase scorsa ha senso, ma forse qualcun'altro può aiutarci! 


Brian


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## Parergon

So far, I agree with your (Brian's) reasoning; I have just a doubt,
might I say 'They have been working in a bank since last June' (or not)?

I know this tense expresses continuation, so my concern is the following:
may I express continuation even if I'm talking about something which is, reasonably, not continuative at all like a job?

I really hope my concern wouldn't be an useless digression.


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## kan3malato

brian8733 said:
			
		

> Ciao kan3malato,
> 
> Sei Hai perfettamente ragione!  La differenza principale fra le due frasi è l'uso di "since" e di "for."  MA, anche nel caso di "for," ci sono alcune sfumature che non so se io possa spiegarti.
> 
> _They have been working in a bank for 3 years. _
> 
> ...significa cominciano a lavorare in banca tre anni fa, e ci lavorano ancora.  La frase, usando il present perfect continuous, enfatizza il fatto che ci lavorano _ancora_, e/o il fatto che ci lavorano _da tre anni_.
> 
> _They have worked in a bank for 3 years.
> 
> _...significa la stessa cosa, ma usando il present perfect enfatizza il fatto che _in banca_ è dove lavorano (e/o in minore misura [to a lesser extent?] il fatto che ci lavorano _da tre anni_, come l'esempio sopra).
> 
> _They have worked in a bank since last June.
> 
> _...significa _Lavorano in banca dal giugno scorso._
> 
> _They worked in a bank since last June. _
> 
> Non riesco a offrire/dare un contesto in cui questa  ultima frase scorsa habbia un  senso, ma forse qualcun'altro può aiutarci!
> 
> 
> Brian


 
_They worked in a bank since last June. _
Then (Bè!!) in this case it's "another pairs of sleeves "(we says:è un'altro paio di maniche ) thinks changed totally.......
because that one is "Past simple" and  is not "present perfect".
since means "da" until " ora,and seeing that past simple talk about things in the past would  have not make sense use "until" with it.
I think the only variant we can say would be: I worked in a bank from January to june,(at this moment I don't work in that bank).

Thanks Brian(correct my English again ).

ps
you in the previous post put like wrong "I've worked since last June" have a look


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## kan3malato

Parergon said:
			
		

> might I say 'They have been working in a bank since last June' (or not)?


as far as I concerned it's perfect... a patto che.. ci stiano sempre lavorando.........


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## Parergon

kan3malato said:
			
		

> I think the only variant we can say would be: I worked in a bank from January to june,(at this moment I don't work in that bank).




I don't know if you'd consider that a variant (or not), but I think you might even say:

I had worked in a bank from January to June, then I got a better offer and I accepted it.

Might I even express that using the continuing form "I had been working in a bank from January to June, then I got a better offer and I accepted it"?


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## kan3malato

Parergon said:
			
		

> I don't know if you'd consider that a variant (or not), but I think you might even say:
> 
> I had worked in a bank from January to June, then I got a better offer and I accepted it.
> 
> Might I even express that using the continuing form "I had been working in a bank from January to June, then I got a better offer and I accepted it"?


HI!! Peregon probably you were right..But I'm not conversant with "past perfect and perfect continuous yet... so that I can't give you my opinion..


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## brian

Parergon said:
			
		

> So far, I agree with your (Brian's) reasoning; I have just a one doubt [or, _I just have one doubt_],
> might I say 'They have been working in a bank since last June' (or not)?
> 
> I know this tense expresses continuation, so my concern is the following:
> may I express continuation even if I'm talking about something which is, reasonably, not continuative at all like a job?
> 
> I really hope my concern wouldn't be isn't an [in AE I'd use _a_] useless digression.


 _They have been working in a bank since last June. _

I'm going to try my hand at explaining in English now.   A job is indeed continuative, which I think is what you are saying, but you would like to know if this construction and tense can work in the context of a different, not-so-continuative verb?  As you said, the progressive _have been ___ing_ by its nature denotes a continuative action, so I don't know if you can use a verb that is not so continuative, and even if you do use one as such, the progressive tense would force it to connote continuousness--if that makes sense.  Perhaps you could provide me with an example of the progressive tense structure with a different verb, and I could tell you whether it is (or sounds) correct or not.



			
				kan3malato said:
			
		

> _They worked in a bank since last June. _
> Then (Bè!!) in this case it's "another pairs of sleeves "(we says:è un'altro paio di maniche ) things changed totally.......
> because that one is "Past simple" and  is not "present perfect".
> "since" means "da" until " ora,and seeing that past simple talks about things in the past it would have not made sense to use "until" with it.
> I think the only variant we can say would be: I worked in a bank from January to june,(at this moment I don't work in that bank).
> 
> Thanks Brian(correct my English again ).
> 
> ps
> you in the your previous post you put like marked wrong "I've worked since last June" have a look


 Your p.s. is a very good question.  The reason that _I've worked since last June _ sounds wrong is because it is not specific enough.  It really means to say: _I've had a job / I've had this job since last June.  _Notice that I said "I've had a job" and not "I've been having a job."  BOTH of these would work perfectly, interchangeably more or less, because of the _added details_ which the words "a job" brings.  When the sentence is not specific enough, using the present perfect sounds strange: _I've worked since last June_ makes me want to ask, "You've worked _where_ since last June?  You've done _what kind of_ work since last June?"  This is why _I've worked there since last June_ sounds okay, because of the added detail of "there."

Mi dispiace per non aver potuto spiegarti abbastanza bene le sfumature riguardo a tutti gli esempi sopra, ma è un costrutto molto molto difficile da capire, sia in inglese che in italiano.  Forse qualcun'altro che parla bene entrambe le lingue può spiegarci le sfumature.



			
				Parergon said:
			
		

> I don't know if you'd consider that this a variant (or not), but I think you might could  even say:
> 
> I had worked in a bank from January to June, then I got a better offer and I accepted it.
> 
> Might I even express that using the continuing form "I had been working in a bank from January to June, then I got a better offer and I accepted it"?


 Yes, you could use both.  It's the same construction, just shifted back in time one step.  Guarda il mio post suddetto, che Necsus ha corretto:



			
				brian8733 said:
			
		

> _I *had been working* at John's Market since June, but last week I quit = (Avevo lavorato) Lavoravo al John's Market da giugno, ma ho lasciato (mi sono licenziato/me ne sono andato) la settimana scorsa._


Altre domande??   Mi piace questa discussione!  Magari qualche altra madrelingua inglese fosse qui per aiutarmi a spiegare queste espressioni...


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## Parergon

This thread is becoming very interesting: generalizing (or extending to all), what verbal tense should I use when my phrase about the past isn't "specific enoguh"? Simple past?

PS. Just to help me out to understand properly (or better) what my error was. Why wasn't 'might' correct? I normal use might when I express the possibility (It's possibile that...).


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## Isapaola

It has been a long discussed topic, and we have never come to a satisfying conclusion. Do yo remember the discussion about the possible use of the continuous form in sentences with not, provided they were not actual negative, but false negative?
I'm just saying how I use it, which is not to be considered the right choice. With verbs of action, that is to say with verbs that can be used in the continuous form ,I use it if the span of time is short.
I have been studying English for thre hours, since John left. (uninterrupted action)
I have studied English for three years (non interrupted action, I have been doing also other things: almost something habitual)
But, if I want to stress the action, such as in the case "I 've been studying English since I was a child (as to mean I haven't practically been doing anything else) and I have never come across such structure!
This is just a way to give new string to the discussion!


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## Parergon

That's a good point. I think this 'rule' might be very useful, especially at the beginning when this verbal form is very complex to understand.

PS. 'to give a new string to something' > Is that an idiomatic expression?


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## Isapaola

Sorry Parergon, probably it is not. I'm afraid it is an involuntary translation of the Italian _dare corda, dare spago a_......
Anyway it sounds good, doesn't it? (I'm just joking, pretending to invent English....)


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## moodywop

Isapaola said:
			
		

> Do yo remember the discussion about the possible use of the continuous form in sentences with not, provided they were not actual negative, but false negative?


 
I do indeed For those who are interested, the notion of a "false negative" baffled everyone at EO: link




> With verbs of action, that is to say with verbs that can be used in the continuous form ,I use it *if the span of time is short.*
> I have been studying English for thre hours, since John left. (uninterrupted action)


 
I'm not sure about the short span of time (or about the "uninterrupted action", for that matter). Surely it's perfectly OK to say "I've been playing football (*on and off*) for twenty years". Maybe the -ing form would only sound odd with "all my life".

And as for the "short span of time", what about this quote:

Scientists believe that the universe has been expanding steadily *since the beginning of time*
(M Swan)



> I have studied English for three years (non interrupted action, I have been doing also other things: almost something habitual)
> But, if I want to stress the action, such as in the case "I 've been studying English since I was a child (*as to mean I haven't practically been* *doing anything else*) and I have never come across such structure!


 
Why should "I've been studying English since I was a child" suggest you "haven't been doing anything else"? 
Which structure have you never come across?

Could native speakers confirm whether my puzzlement is justified?


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## kan3malato

> Why should "I've been studying English since I was a child" suggest you "haven't been doing anything else"?
> Which structure have you never come across?
> 
> Could native speakers confirm whether my puzzlement is justified?


HI!!
I've been wondering it too,  for  several days.... 
Thanks


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## Isapaola

Provo a spiegarmi in Italiano, dato che questa regola ha sostenitori di un'opzione e dell'altra.
La frase incriminata voleva solo dare il tono enfatizzante, come a dire: nonhai mai fatto altro che studiare inglese da 20 anni e non hai mai incontrato questa rgola? In questo esempio sembra si volgia sottolineare che l'azione è praticamente stata ininterrotta (ovviamente in seso ironico9 e quindi la forma continua, mlgrado l'estensione del tempo, può avere un senso. Mentr una semplice comunicazione, studio inglese da vent'anni, assume la forma abituale e non continua, proprio perchè non è un'azione ininterrotta. I nativi potranno dire ogni cosa di questa mia visione dell'uso dei tempi, e niente è più bello, secondo me, che scatenare questa reazioni. Non è così che si va a fondo delle varie sfumature di una regola?Grazie Kan3 di aver tenuto vivo l'argomento.


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## davidforth

I can say in English "I've been washing my car.." But when I say this thing, I've already finished to wash it.. So why you tell me that present perfect progressive is linked with the present eventhough it is not?!

Maybe because this kind of tense doesn't have a real continuation into reality, but it has got a kind of effect on the reality itself.
You know.. if I washed the car, it doesn't mean I'm still washing it but maybe I mean that the car is cleaner than before.(in this case it has influenced something in the present,the cleanness of the car then).
Hope this can be the solution of it.

Am I right mothertongues?!?! 


Ciao


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## Isapaola

hallo Davidforth
How is it that a post of long time ago has been taken into discussion? Good thing, anyway.
I think it is clear that the action is seen in its continuous being, because you stress the fact that you spent some time, in the opinion of the speaker quite a long time, doing somethng. My hands are dirty because I have been repairing my bike. The stress is on the action, NOT only on the effect. I have repaired my bike only concentrates on the effect of the action, not on the span of time spent doing that.  Anyway, I like thes discussions, and I am waiting for motortongues myself-


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