# Magst du Der/der Herr der Ringe?



## archibaldworthington

This question about capitalization of titles when the title begins with an article (be it definite or indefinite; z.B. _der_ oder _ein_). In the question:

Magst du Der/der Herr der Ringe?

Should _der_ be capitalized? In English, I wouldn't capitalize _the_, but this is German.


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## Perseas

In my opinion it is either
Magst du _Der Herr der Ringe_? (Der belongs to the titel - maybe in quotation marks "Der Herr der Ringe"). 
or
Magst du den Herrn der Ringe?


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## manfy

Perseas said:


> In my opinion it is either
> Magst du _Der Herr der Ringe_? (Der belongs to the titel - maybe in quotation marks "Der Herr der Ringe").
> or
> Magst du den Herrn der Ringe?


Your second option feels off to me! _Der Herr der Ringe_ is a proper name of a movie (Eigenname) and it feels wrong to decline that. But I agree, I would also capitalize it because of the fact of proper name.

Of course it would be different in the case of:
Magst du den Herrn Berger? In this case only "Berger" is a proper name (and a proper noun), hence declination of "der Herr" is a must.


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## Perseas

manfy said:


> Your second option feels off to me! _Der Herr der Ringe_ is a proper name of a movie (Eigenname) and *it feels wrong to decline that*.


Is it always so? For ex. in oral speech or in colloquial.
 (I am asking because in Greek the article can be declined, although it is in nominative in the name of the movie.)


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## archibaldworthington

So, to be clear, the first _der_ in _Der Herr der Ringe_ is capitalized and not declined?


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## manfy

archibaldworthington said:


> So, to be clear, the first _der_ in _Der Herr der Ringe_ is capitalized and not declined?


Yes! And actually you're supposed to do the same in English due to the proper-name-concept! (unless you opt to drop the article: Do you like "Lord of the Rings"?)



Perseas said:


> Is it always so? For ex. in oral speech or in colloquial.


Yes, for me it's always so - but I can't speak for other native speakers!
If you say "Magst du den Herrn der Ringe?" I'm inclined to think, you're asking if I like the main character, Herr der Ringe. But if you ask "Magst du _Der Herr der Ringe_?", it's clear that you're asking about the film as a whole.


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## Demiurg

manfy said:


> Your second option feels off to me! _Der Herr der Ringe_ is a proper name of a movie (Eigenname) and it feels wrong to decline that.



I think it's common practice:

Tolkien schuf mit dem "Herrn der Ringe" ...
Thomas Mann schildert in den "Buddenbrooks" ...
Im neuen SPIEGEL steht ...


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## Resa Reader

manfy said:


> Yes! And actually you're supposed to do the same in English due to the proper-name-concept! (unless you opt to drop the article: Do you like "Lord of the Rings"?)



To get round the problem you can actually do the same thing in German:

Hast du "*Herr der Ringe" *schon gesehen?


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## Angelo di fuoco

archibaldworthington said:


> So, to be clear, the first _der_ in _Der Herr der Ringe_ is capitalized and not declined?



No. What manfry writes is manfry's personal use of the German language, most people wouldn't agree - and the distinction he proposes between not declining the title and declining the character's nameis an artificial one. After all, even peoples' names are declined (and were much more declined in the past than they are now) and that's not disrespectful.
Using the first article you have to decline it as you decline _Deutsche Bahn_. Not using the first article you usually don't decline it.


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## thebellringer

Yeah, to me it feels like you have to capitalise the "der" because it's part of the name. But like Resa Reader said, I'd probably say: "Magst du Herr der Ringe?"


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## Angelo di fuoco

I'd write "Magst Du den _Herrn der Ringe_?"


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## ablativ

Demiurg said:


> I think it's common practice:
> 
> Tolkien schuf mit dem "Herrn der Ringe" ...
> Thomas Mann schildert in den "Buddenbrooks" ...
> Im neuen SPIEGEL steht ...


Correct, but you can also write:

Der Hauptdarsteller in "Der Herr der Ringe" ist ...
Thomas Mann schildert in "Buddenbrooks" ...
In "DER SPIEGEL" steht ... (wobei Zeitungsartikel allerdings praktisch immer dekliniert werden [im "Tagesboten"])


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## Glockenblume

... Und wenn man sich gar nicht entscheiden kann, gibt es noch eine Alternativlösung:
Magst du den Film "Der Herr der Ringe"?
Hier wird nicht dekliniert.


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## Hutschi

Hi, it is not clear whether film or book is described.
We have (as summary of above) in principle 4 methods.

1. (standard) in quotation marks, "der" upper case.
Magst du "Der Herr der Ringe"?

2. The hierarchy is marked otherwise, for example bold or italic
Magst du *Der Herr der Ringe*?

3. Lowercase, declined
Magst du den "Herrn der Ringe"?

4. With source: Magst du den Film/das Buch "Der Herr der Ringe"?

You can also in 3 and 4 replace the quotation marks by other methods, like bold and italic, but this is rather seldom used in print.


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## berndf

Angelo di fuoco said:


> No. What manfry writes is manfry's personal use of the German language, most people wouldn't agree - and the distinction he proposes between not declining the title and declining the character's nameis an artificial one.


I basically agree with you but Manfys's opinion is not so isolated as you make it sound. There is indeed a certain relucance to decline proper names except in genitive.


Angelo di fuoco said:


> Using the first article...


What is a "first article"?


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## Angelo di fuoco

Well, "reluctance", no... but if you take a name like Anna, in older German you'd have to decline it as "Annen" in both dative & accusative. That's not even optional in modern German.

The first article is that before "Herr".


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## thebellringer

To be honest, I've never heard anyone say: "Magst du den Herrn der Ringe?" It's always been "Der Herr der Ringe" or just "Herr der Ringe". So it feels kind of off to me. It seems wrong but I can't really explain why, because in Demiurg's examples it doesn't seem weird at all.


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## berndf

Angelo di fuoco said:


> Well, "reluctance", no...


I am afraid you are making your own Sprachgefühl the measuring rod here.


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## Angelo di fuoco

I think there's a misunderstanding. What you call "reluctance to decline proper names" I'd call a tendency to not inflect them. And other than the genitive ending there are no possibilities to inflect personal names in contemporary German, right?


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## berndf

Then we probably mean the same.


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## Angelo di fuoco

Except that I meant a general tendency which is not limited to the problem of this thread.
I've noted a similar - very recent - phenomenon in my mother tongue, but it's not at all correct.


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## berndf

Angelo di fuoco said:


> I've noted a similar - very recent - phenomenon in my mother tongue, but it's not at all correct.


It is as it is. Who decides what's "correct". I don't think "correct"/"not correct" is an applicable categorization here, at least not in German.


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## Angelo di fuoco

It's not accepted in the standard Russian language...


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## cuore romano

manfy said:


> Your second option feels off to me! _Der Herr der Ringe_ is a proper name of a movie (Eigenname) and it feels wrong to decline that. But I agree, I would also capitalize it because of the fact of proper name.
> 
> Of course it would be different in the case of:
> *Magst du den Herrn Berger?* In this case only "Berger" is a proper name (and a proper noun), hence declination of "der Herr" is a must.



Namen mit Artikeln gehen nicht. Es sei denn, es folgt ein Zusatz: 
Magst du den Herrn Berger, der bei mir im Haus wohnt?


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## Angelo di fuoco

Sie gehen sehr wohl, auch wenn es allgemein nicht unbedingt als gepflegtes Deutsch betrachtet wird.


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## berndf

Angelo di fuoco said:


> It's not accepted in the standard Russian language...


Ah ok.


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## Glockenblume

ablativ said:


> Correct, but you can also write:
> 
> Der Hauptdarsteller in "Der Herr der Ringe" ist ...
> Thomas Mann schildert in "Buddenbrooks" ...
> In "DER SPIEGEL" steht ... (wobei Zeitungsartikel allerdings praktisch immer dekliniert werden [im "Tagesboten"])



Ich sage es mal auf Deutsch, weil mir gerade das englische Vokabular fehlt:
Ich habe folgenden Eindruck - aber korrigiert mich, wenn ich mich täusche:
Bei Nominalphrasen *ohne* Genitiv- oder Präpositionalattribut ist die Tendenz größer zu deklinieren als bei Bei Nominalphrasen *mit* Genitiv- oder Präpositionalattribut. Der undeklinierte Artikel hebt besser den Beginn des Eigennamens hervor.


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## cuore romano

Angelo di fuoco said:


> Sie gehen sehr wohl, auch wenn es allgemein nicht unbedingt als gepflegtes Deutsch betrachtet wird.



Jeder Deutschlehrer, den ich kenne, streicht es an.  
Aber von mir aus - gehen tut fast alles, man muss nur die entsprechende Story drum herum stricken.


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## Glockenblume

cuore romano said:


> Jeder Deutschlehrer, den ich kenne, streicht es an.
> Aber von mir aus - gehen tut fast alles, man muss nur die entsprechende Story drum herum stricken.


In der *gesprochenen* Sprache in *Süddeutschland* ist das normales Deutsch, durchaus gepflegt, nur *schreiben* sollte man es *nicht*, da streichen es selbst die süddeutschen Lehrer an (zumindest ab der Sekundarstufe...)


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## Angelo di fuoco

Tja, so ungefähr meinte ich das auch, auch wenn das Phänomen hier in Norddeutschland nicht unbedingt majoritärer Sprachgebrauch ist. Unbekannt ist es aber nicht.


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## Glockenblume

Angelo di fuoco said:


> Tja, so ungefähr meinte ich das auch, auch wenn das Phänomen hier in Norddeutschland nicht unbedingt majoritärer Sprachgebrauch ist. Unbekannt ist es aber nicht.


In Süddeutschland sagen es aber nahezu *alle* Einheimischen -zumindest meiner Generation (Mitte 40) - so.


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