# 君の元へ飛んでゆけ



## Nino83

Hello everyone.

I'm listening to a song (Hearts Grow - "Yura Yura"), but I've two doubts.

Yurayura to yuganda sora e
Kimi no moto e tonde *yuke*
Konna ni mo chikaku ni *kanjiteru
Futatsu no omoi*

ゆらゆらと歪んだ空へ
君の元へ飛んで*ゆけ*
こんなにも　近くに*感じてる
ふたつの想い  *

to/through the warped and wobbling sky
(I'm?) flying to you (to your side)
(I ?) feel so close (to you)
the wish/feeling of us (of two persons, of the two of us)

1) The first one is the use of 命令形 in "yuke". This doesn't seem to be an order (fly to your side?), or is it?

2) The second one is about the last two lines. I don't understand if:
a) they are two separate clauses: I feel so close. The wish/feeling of two persons (a couple), (of us)
b) a relative clause: the wish/feeling of us that I feel so close. The wish/feeling of us that feels so close.
c) a delayed subject: The wish/feeling of us feels so close.

Thank you


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## frequency

Nino83 said:


> 1) The first one is the use of 命令形 in "yuke". This doesn't seem to be an order (fly to your side?), or is it?



Yes, it's 命令形. I have two possible cases: 1) You're ordering yourself to fly to his/her side.
You said "a delayed subject", and it is "想い" displayed in the last line. Therefore, this can be the main topic in these lines, so 2) You're ordering your 想い to fly to his/her side.
If it's 2), you may wonder why the speaker wants to send his or her 想い closer, although he or she already feels it so? The first two lines and the latter two lines are not strongly but loosely connected with each other, but they just share 想い.

Then which is better? I can't judge and that depends on your impression.




Nino83 said:


> 2) The second one is about the last two lines. I don't understand if:


c) a delayed subject: The wish/feeling of us feels so close.
c) is likely. The speaker is feeling the two 想い.


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## Nino83

frequency said:


> 1) You're ordering yourself to fly to his/her side.
> 2) You're ordering your 想い to fly to his/her side.
> Then which is better? I can't judge and that depends on your impression.


In both cases, when we order ourselves or someone to do something, we indicate the person who is ordered to do something with the second person singular pronoun and the "recipient" or "goal" (the person toward whom the action is directed) with the third person singular pronoun.

For example, "*I* offer *you *a cup of coffe". 
I order myself to give you a cup of coffe: "give *her* a cup of coffe!" 
The same if I "order a wish" to go to someone I'm speaking to: "go to *her/him*!" 

The "problem" with both solutions, is that in these lyrics there are both an imperative form and a second person singular pronoun "go to you!".  

If I say to myself "offer *you* a cup of coffe!" I'm ordering myself to offer a cup of coffe to me (very strange). 
If I say to my wish "go to *you*!", I'm ordering the wish to go to itself (nonsense).  
At least, this is how the imperative mood works in some Indo-European languages.  

If the sentence had been "Kare no moto e tonde yuke", I probably would have been able to guess that the singer was ordering herself or her wish to go to her lover.  
What I can't understand is the presence of "kimi no moto e" and "tonde yuke" in the same sentence.  

Any suggestion?


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## 810senior

Nino83 said:


> Yurayura to yuganda sora e
> Kimi no moto e tonde *yuke*
> Konna ni mo chikaku ni *kanjiteru
> Futatsu no omoi*
> 
> ゆらゆらと歪んだ空へ
> 君の元へ飛んで*ゆけ*
> こんなにも　近くに*感じてる
> ふたつの想い*



Here's my translation:
_Toward the warped sky
*Let it fly* toward you(=I want to fly to you)
*I feel them *so close like this:
*the two feelings*(about you and me)_

1) ゆけ is quite imperative even if it doesn't fit in the sentence. I guess this imperative use represents the strong will of the speaker that wishes to get closer to his/her lover.
2) From my point of view, perhaps it's an inverted sentence(-> (私は)こんなにもふたつの想い[を]近くに感じてる), which often happens to the verse.

P.S.
Let me apologize for the misread part. (ふたりの想い→ふたつの想い, silly me being unable to tell り and つ apart)


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## frequency

Thank you, 810


810senior said:


> 1) ゆけ is quite imperative even if it doesn't fit in the sentence. I guess this imperative use represents the strong will of the speaker that wishes to get closer to his/her lover.
> 2) From my point of view, perhaps it's an inverted sentence(-> こんなにもふたりの想い[を]近くに感じてる), which often happens to the verse.


Agree with you.



Nino83 said:


> If I say to myself "offer *you* a cup of coffe!" I'm ordering myself to offer a cup of coffe to me (very strange).
> If I say to my wish "go to *you*!", I'm ordering the wish to go to itself (nonsense).
> At least, this is how the imperative mood works in some Indo-European languages.


 
Indeed. I agree.




> What I can't understand is the presence of "kimi no moto e" and "tonde yuke" in the same sentence.


I think this is just possible in Japanese.

To whom you want to go fly? きみ、彼、彼女、あの子・・ in Japanese, I think you can select freely. In English, the position of the pronoun as you described in #3 decides where/how you and the hearer are there, so you need attention.

That free choice _may_ be related to the direct/indirect speech in Japanese.

By the way, I don't know how an imperative works in Italian but in English an imperative form just expresses an order, instruction, or warning.
But in Japanese and in a poem or lyrics, it sometimes sounds like expressing your hope.
This is what I said yesterday and the suggestion by 810 in her #4.

Is my post answering your question? If I'm missing any point, post us back.


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## Nino83

810senior said:


> *Let it fly* toward you(=I want to fly to you)


So this _yuke_ stands for _yukasete_ (causative + imperative, _make/let it fly_)?


810senior said:


> ふたりの想い[*を*]近くに感じてる


Thanks, so it is similar to a relative clause (the feeling of us that I feel so close, like in b)).


frequency said:


> I think this is just possible in Japanese.



Thanks for the info.
So, if you order yourself to give a cup of coffe to someone, do you think and say to yourself "give *you* a cup of coffe!" instead of "give *him/her* a cup of coffe!"?
Interesting!


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## frequency

Nino83 said:


> So, if you order yourself to give a cup of coffee to someone, do you think and say to yourself "give *you* a cup of coffee!" instead of "give *him/her* a cup of coffee!"?


Nono, say give _him/her_.., also in Japanese, when it's clear that you're in the situation where you and somebody "receiver" are there.
And you know this is a very realistic/practical situation.

That free choice would be good in a poem, lyrics, or alike, as seen in your OP.
(If I find more information, I'll give you feedback.)


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## 810senior

Nino83 said:


> So this _yuke_ stands for _yukasete_ (causative + imperative, _make/let it fly_)?


_Let it fly_ doesn't mean much because I don't even know what the *it *means(at least from the context). According to the original text, it is surely *a simple imperative*.



Nino83 said:


> Thanks, so it is similar to a relative clause (the feeling of us that I feel so close, like in b)).



What I mean by it is that it is an inverted sentence with the object(ふたつの思い) being placed after 近くに感じてる, similar to the European language's word order, SVO.

こんなにも(C)　ふたつの思いを(O)　近くに感じてる(V) *common word order in Japanese.
↓
こんなにも(C)　近くに感じてる(V)　ふたつの思い(O) *inverted


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## Nino83

810senior said:


> According to the original text, it is surely *a simple imperative*.


With a second person singular pronoun as destination/recipient/goal. I still don't get it. Anyway, thank you for your efforts.


810senior said:


> I guess this imperative use represents the strong will of the speaker that wishes to get closer to his/her lover.





frequency said:


> But in Japanese and in a poem or lyrics, it sometimes sounds like expressing your hope.


This could be another type of imperative which is present in Japanese but absent in some European languages. 
Unfortunately there is no trace of it in my grammar book. 
It would be interesting to find some usages of this particular "imperative" mood.


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## Nino83

I don't know if you may be interested, but I found something that could be similar to an English and Italian construction, using the verb_ may/potere_.
_Che io possa volare verso di te!
May I fly to you!_
I found this interesting thread in the English Only forum


fiercediva said:


> The singer is using "may" to express a wish: "May I be yawning" = "I hope I will be yawning."


and this one in the Italian-English forum


> May I win but if I can't do it, May I try with all my strenght


This construction (in both Italian and English) can be used with a first person pronoun or with other persons (_may God bless you/che Dio ti benedica_, _may you be blessed/che tu sia benedetto_).
Oxford learner's dictionary


> 5 (formal) used to express wishes and hopes


It is called "optative mood" in English and "congiuntivo esortativo" (exhortative subjunctive) in Italian (because in Latin, the optative mood merged with the subjunctive mood).

So, maybe the Japanese imperative mood can work as optative mood too, in some cases.

In the wikipedia page, it is said that in Japanese the optative mood is formed with:


> - _ba_ (-ば) or _tara_ (-たら) + いい. For example, "I wish there were more time" is expressed literally as "If there were time, it would be good." (時間があればいいのに _jikan ga areba ii noni_)
> - The optative mood can also be expressed by using ように _youni_ after the polite form of a verb. For instance, "may you have a pleasant trip" 楽しい旅になりますように.



Do you think that "kimi no moto e tonde yuke" is similar to "kimi no moto e tonde yukeba ii no ni" or "Kimi no moto e tonde yukimasu you ni" (the optative constructions suggested by wikipedia) or to "Kimi no moto e tonde yuku to ii ne"?


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## frequency

Nino83 said:


> This could be another type of imperative which is present in Japanese but absent in some European languages. Unfortunately there is no trace of it in my grammar book.


I think I was wrong and I mixed things up. Sorry I hope you to forget about this



Nino83 said:


> So, if you order yourself to give a cup of coffee to someone, do you think and say to yourself "give *you* a cup of coffee!" instead of "give *him/her* a cup of coffee!"?


Let me revise it. And this post is irrelevant to your #10.

Regarding the pronoun in the song, I suppose that involves a lyric style. For example,

俺よ、きみのもとへ飛んでゆけ！
きみ＝hearer. You're speaking to her.
俺よ、あの子（彼女）のもとへ飛んでゆけ！
There are you, her, and audience. And you're aware of audience more than you are in the above case.

俺の想いよ、きみのもとへ飛んでゆけ！
俺の想いよ、あの子（彼女）のもとへ飛んでゆけ！
These are as well.

You/woman/audience   _Paul Simon    Still Crazy After All These Years_
You/woman           _For Emily, Whenever I May Find Her_


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## Nino83

Thank you for replying, frequency!


frequency said:


> 俺よ、きみのもとへ飛んでゆけ！
> きみ＝hearer. You're speaking to her.


Ok!
In these cases (when you're speaking directly to the hearer) we can't use (in English, Italian and other Indo-European languages) the imperative mood, because this mood lacks the conjugation for the first person. It is used *only* to give *orders*. (If you want to use imperative to give an order to yourself, you have a "pronoun-shift", i.e the speaker is "you" and the goal/recipient is "him/her").
It could be translated better with: _*if only* I *could* fly to/toward you!_ (English), *se solo potessi*_ volare verso di te!_ (Italian) or_ *may* I fly to/toward you_! (English), *che possa*_ volare verso di te!_ (Italian).

Is this the meaning of that sentence, in Japanese (strong desire, a wish)?


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## frequency

I'm a person far far different from a poet. lol, but wouldn't it be _Go fly to you_? If so, does it sound like you're ordering someone or something to go fly to "you"? Or _I go fly to you!_ seems okay, too. Then is this similar to your _may I fly to_?

Nino, do you want to go fly to the person whom you don't like? lol  You may, when you have a complaint to the person. I suppose what you have in your mind isn't wrong.


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## Nino83

frequency said:


> but wouldn't it be _Go fly to you_? If so, does it sound like you're ordering someone or something to go fly to "you"?


In English, if I tell you "fly to you!", I'm ordering you to fly to yourself. 
The imperative mood:
2 person singular: go! (you)
2 person plural: go! ( you all) 
If I order myself to do something, I speak to myself like I would speak to a second person, so (the speaker) I => you and (hearer, receiver) you => her
"fly (you, speaker) to her (hearer, receiver)!"


frequency said:


> Then is this similar to your _may I fly to_?


This means "I wish I could fly/I hope I can fly/I strongly want to fly to you".
If "kimi no moto e tonde yuke" has the same meaning, we've solved the problem.


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## frequency

Nino83 said:


> if I tell you "fly to you!"


As a whole, you have to use the "talking to you" style for the lyrics, that'll be like this.
Honestly, without the preceding lyrics the first two line _slightly_ sounds to me like a "with audience" style (the Still Crazy's one). But if it's impossible, you can't select it. Moreover, "talking to you" style isn't wrong for it.

U~m, but I think the imperative form would make the lyrics sound cool, though


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## Nino83

Mh...I didn't get it. 
I'll see if I can find something in some book. 
Thanks


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## frequency

Okay, "Go fly to you" can't be an order to yourself, but it can be in Japanese. I see. _IF_ I were you, I could select _I go fly to you!_ because that sounds your strong will and can avoid confusion.


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## Nino83

frequency said:


> Okay, "Go fly to you" can't be an order to yourself, but it can be in Japanese.


Thanks! 
This is what puzzles me.


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## Nino83

I've found in a book (Japanese: A Comprehensive Grammar, 2nd edition, Routledge), chapter 20 paragraph 1:


> Note- In Japanese imperatives and commands the subject of the sentence can be included. However, since this is not possible in English imperatives, they cannot be translated as imperatives in English.


In the Indo-European languages (from Iceland to India) there are only two imperative forms: 2nd person singular and 2nd person plural (do (you/you all)!, fai/fate!, mach/macht!, де́лай/де́лайте! [délaj/délajte!]), some languages has also one cohortative form for the 1st person plural, similar to -mashō!: (facciamo!, machen!), while for the other persons we use optative* forms with verbs like "let + dative pronoun" (let me do!, lascia(te)mi fare!, lasst mir machen!) or "may + nominative pronoun" (may I do!, possa io fare!, möge ich machen!).

*optātīvus modus, from Latin optātus, past participle of optāre, to wish. The mood of wish.

In other words, the Japanese imperative can do things that the IE imperative can't do.
So I'd go for 810senior's translation:


810senior said:


> *Let it fly* toward you(=I want to fly to you)


Let me fly to you! Let our feeling(s) fly to you!
May I fly to you! May our feeling(s) fly to you!

Thank you very much for the help!


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## Nino83

I found another example in A Reference Grammar of Japanese



> And some commands are addressed to oneself: Ei, mendoo da; kitti mae [= kitte simae] 'This tangle is a nuisance-I may as well cut it (= the thread)' (Mikami 1963a.76). Very occasionally you may run across a genuinely third person command: Onna no mono wa onna ga tukure 'Let women's things be made by women!' (SA 2672.63a-heading).



In kana these ones would be:
えい、めんどう だ、*切ってしまえ*。
女のものは女が*作れ*。
I'd translate these ones, like: "let me cut it" and "let women make women's things" (if there is another person and it is an order) or "may I cut it" and "may women make women's things" (if it's a wish).

So, it's confirmed. The Indo-European imperative has only two conjugations (2nd person singular and plural) while the Japanese imperative has a wider meaning, also that of the Indo-European optative (may + nominative pronoun) and permissive (let + dative pronoun) moods.

Something so important should be explained also in basic grammar books!

Now the meaning of the sentence is clear.


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## frequency

In the song your choice is fully possible, but



Nino83 said:


> えい、めんどう だ、*切ってしまえ*。


This 切ってしまえ is interchangeable with 切ってしまおう, which means your will: I cut it off. Therefore, this sounds like an order to yourself when the flow suggests so.
When this is an order to somebody, it's an order from you.



Nino83 said:


> 女のものは女が*作れ*。


When you say this one to a certain woman, this is an order to her.
When you're with your guy friend, and you say this one to him. In this case, it sounds the causative or suggestion: the "let" version.

You would wonder why this imperative could be stated to him, a guy friend. This one would be something like your monologue but accompanying audience (him).


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## Nino83

frequency said:


> When you say this one to a certain woman, this is an order to her.


In English you should adress directly the woman (with a "vocative") and use the 2nd person singular imperative: "Hey, woman! Make women's things!".


frequency said:


> This 切ってしまえ is interchangeable with 切ってしまおう, which means your will: I cut it off.


In English one should adress himself as a second person "(you) cut it off!" in order to use the imperative mood. 

This is the structural difference between IE and Japanese imperatives. I found that also the Turkish imperative mood has a full conjugation for each person (1st, 2nd, 3rd, singular and plural).

Thank you for your explanation!


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