# EN: pronouns for towns



## pioupiouz

Hi 
I am opening back this thread because I would like to know if "she" could ever be used for a town (to convey the idea that it is like a woman, the context is audio guiding and the town itself talks to its visitors).
And I do know that he and she are for people but wouldn't it be like a "figure de style" to use "she"(giving it a voice and feelings) in this case?




Moderator note:  This thread was split from this one.  The reason is that the question is sufficiently different to warrant its own thread.


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## lilatranslator

I know that if it's your country, in some cases, you can use "She". As for a town, I think if I'm not mistaken you can use "she" if you want "to give it a voice and feelings". Let's wait for other suggestions from natives.


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## pioupiouz

So, unless I get a native no!no!, it will be she.
Thanks lila


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## uptown

As an American, I would find the use of "she" to be a little off-putting for a town. As Lila said, "if it's your country", it might be acceptable. For visitors, it isn't their country. As such, it would sound a bit nationalistic. 

For a town, it's more than a little unexpected. I would only use it in a "patriotic" sense, and probably only poetically in that case. 

So... there's your native no-no.


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## pioupiouz

OK, I wanted it to sound a little poetic but since I don't master the art and I don't want to sound ridiculous and it also has to be clearly understood.
Thank you Uptown for clarifying that for me


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## CapnPrep

Do you mean, there is a recording of a woman pretending to be the voice of the town, and she says, "Hello! I was founded in the Middle Ages, and today 80,000 people live in me!" and another voice says "Wow, she's a fascinating town, isn't she?" I would find this strange.


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## pioupiouz

Exactly, in fact it's an audio guide and the presentation includes these sentences:

« J’ai eu envie de me dévoiler à vous, sans pudeur et sans retenue…Envie de vous accompagner de placettes en ruelles et de port en presqu’île, à la découverte de chacun de ces sites qui composent la richesse de mon patrimoine ».

Ces quelques mots sont ceux de notre ville, dont vous êtes ici l’hôte privilégié et en compagnie de laquelle vous allez maintenant ouvrir la grande porte des souvenirs... 

Then, all along the audio guide, the town (woman voice) comments the places and monuments. I know it sounds weird but it makes the guide a little less dull to listen to, it adds more drama to it.
It sounds good in French and you really get the feeling of a lady telling the story of her life.(she wouldn't say "today, 80,000 people live in me" but "today, my population...")
I'm not sure that make much sense in English and even though I'd like it to sound poetic, I don't want to risk a ridiculous translation. I don't want people to get confused. What do you think?


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## se16teddy

I think there are a few towns that are sometimes referred to as _she_, at least by their lovers - Venice, the Queen of the Adriatic, and perhaps also Rome, the Eternal City.


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## Loob

pioupiouz said:


> Exactly, in fact it's an audio guide and the presentation includes these sentences:
> 
> « J’ai eu envie de me dévoiler à vous, sans pudeur et sans retenue…Envie de vous accompagner de placettes en ruelles et de port en presqu’île, à la découverte de chacun de ces sites qui composent la richesse de mon patrimoine ».
> 
> Ces quelques mots sont ceux de notre ville, dont vous êtes ici l’hôte privilégié et en compagnie de laquelle vous allez maintenant ouvrir la grande porte des souvenirs...
> 
> Then, all along the audio guide, the town (woman voice) comments the places and monuments. I know it sounds weird but it makes the guide a little less dull to listen to, it adds more drama to it.
> It sounds good in French and you really get the feeling of a lady telling the story of her life.(she wouldn't say "today, 80,000 people live in me" but "today, my population...")
> I'm not sure that make much sense in English and even though I'd like it to sound poetic, I don't want to risk a ridiculous translation. I don't want people to get confused. What do you think?


 
Pioupiouz, this sort of personalisation might be OK if the town is a romantic dreamy sort of place and if it's done with a light touch.  It would probably be fine in the introductory part of the audio-guide; but if it was maintained for twenty minutes I think it would start to sound quite odd. 

That's a personal view: I'll be interested to hear what others say


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## pioupiouz

Loob said:


> Pioupiouz, this sort of personalisation might be OK if the town is a romantic dreamy sort of place and if it's done with a light touch.  It would probably be fine in the introductory part of the audio-guide; but if it was maintained for twenty minutes I think it would start to sound quite odd.
> 
> That's a personal view: I'll be interested to hear what others say



That's exactly the kind of feeling I'd like to get, it's a very old town, with paved streets, granite houses, medieval towers and the use of "she" would only last for a couple of sentences in the introduction part, but as you say it's quite tricky and it has to be very subtle, so I'm still not sure and I'd love to get more opinions, especially from UK natives since American visitors are so rare.

Anyway, thank you all for your contribution and feel free to tell me what you think of this kind of personalisation


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## Arrius

Relevant quotes from songs in both languages on this matter are:

_Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner that I love London so.  Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner that I think of *her* wherever I go._

_Paris, c'est *une blonde*, qui plaît à tout le monde._


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## Loob

pioupiouz said:


> That's exactly the kind of feeling I'd like to get, it's a very old town, with paved streets, granite houses, medieval towers and the use of "she" would only last for a couple of sentences in the introduction part, but as you say it's quite tricky and it has to be very subtle, so I'm still not sure and I'd love to get more opinions, especially from UK natives since American visitors are so rare.
> 
> Anyway, thank you all for your contribution and feel free to tell me what you think of this kind of personalisation


 
Pioupiouz, can I just check: are you talking about using "she" to describe a town, or using "I" to describe one (in an audio-guide with a woman's voice)? The two are very different questions...

I understood you to mean the second


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## pioupiouz

Loob said:


> Pioupiouz, can I just check: are you talking about using "she" to describe a town, or using "I" to describe one (in an audio-guide with a woman's voice)? The two are very different questions...
> 
> I understood you to mean the second



In fact, it's both; in French, first the audio guide leaflet starts with a few words from the town itself (I know a talking town, how weird!), it says something like " I wanted to reveal myself to you, to let you know who I am, openly and without restraint...." then it says "those words are our town's own and in her company, you are going to open the great gate of memory...." and that's for the leaflet. On the audio guide tracks, the town itself guides the people and she would say things like "this is my lighthouse..." or "let me tell you about the darkest hours of my history"(plague or war) but apart from that she would speak like a guide would.(by the way I'm begining to think that what is so nice in French, gets really absurd in English, so I think I'm going to forget the whole "she" thing)
In your opinion what is the worse: introducing a town as a "she" or having it guiding people saying "I", "my marina", "my marketplace"...?


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## pioupiouz

Hello everybody, 
I am just trying my luck to check one last time if somebody has an opinion on this thread.
Either on the use of "she" for a town or on the fact that the town guides people saying my marina or my oldest building...
I just hope I'm not rude asking again


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## ascoltate

I am not British, but I think it sounds quite odd. I would opt for putting it in the plural and treating the narrator as if she is one of the townspeople ("our marina"/"our building") if you want to make it more personal... That is, of course, less poetic, but decidedly less strange, as well...


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## pioupiouz

I think you are right Ascoltate, I'll use "we"
Still, it's funny how this kind of personalisation seems to be widely understood in French, Italian, Spanish and German.
Maybe English is not such a poetic and imaginative language after all...
In French we say "Les objets ont une âme." (the objects have a soul) and it's very common to speak of things as if they were people. In English, I've only heard it about ships or maybe guns (in movies they are sometimes refered as the hero's best friend).


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## lilatranslator

pioupiouz said:


> I think you are right Ascoltate, I'll use "we"
> Still, it's funny how this kind of personalisation seems to be widely understood in French, Italian, Spanish and German.
> Maybe English is not such a poetic and imaginative language after all...
> In French we say "Les objets ont une âme." (the objects have a soul) and it's very common to speak of things as if they were people. In English, I've only heard it about ships or maybe guns (in movies they are sometimes refered as the hero's best friend).



Honestly, in the context you describe, I really don't see why you can't use "she" for a town! It makes perfect sense to me. And as I have already mentionned above, I have already come across articles(very few though) where the personnal pronoun  "she" has been used for towns. The  poetic context of your paragraph calls for the use of  "she" instead of "it" knowing that the town has been given a voice of its own . But again, I'm no native! So maybe that's why I don't see any oddness in your translated text.


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## pioupiouz

It seems that everytime I take the decision to do it one way ,I get another opinion. I understand both points but I am sooo lost....
If any UK native wants to give their opinion, I'll give them a free tour of my island and I'll do the speaking
Needless to say, whoever contributed to this thread gets one


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## Debate1777

iFrom another Americans point of view (which may already be exhausted), I think it is fine to use "she", though it sounds a little "New Age like" to me but if that is the sort of appeal for which you desire, I say go for it. 

Also, it might sound a bit corny to a younger crowd such as for a group of teenagers but I think that age group is often critical of about nearly anything.


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## pioupiouz

ok Debate1777, you're in for a free tour too.
But what do you think about the city having its(her) own voice in the audioguide? (saying "my marina","my first inhabitants were..."); does it sound weird?


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## Debate1777

Well as I said, I think it sounds "New Agey" or maybe like a tape that you might listen to fall asleep, such as "The river speaks to you, etc" 

But I think it would be okay, there are similar things such as this at historical sites in the US (with voices of people from the past etc..so it wouldn't be too shocking by any means to have a city talk.) Kinda innovative, I think!


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## pioupiouz

Thank you for answering so fast Debate1777.
I still have a couple of days before I decide what to do so I'll hold to see if anybody else has an opinion on the subject.
Hey, if UK natives come here and get a weird, spooky tour, they'll just have to blame themselves for it!!!


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## Fury

Hi Pioupiouz !
I'd find it a bit unnerving, myself !! Here we'd tend to have someone talking about "our town" to make it sound like they'd always lived in the place, are prooud of it and are giving a warm welcome to visitors.


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## pioupiouz

Thanks for your answer Fury.
So in your opinion, it would be a pain to listen to an audioguide of Edinburgh (for example) saying (with a woman's voice): " I invite you to discover the secrets of my past; let's start with my castle and its gardens....." (a little less abruptly of course).
Then what do you think of my other problem (and I wish I only had two...) which is the use of "she" instead of "it" when introducing the town in a poetic way?
After that I promise to leave you alone with my absurd personalisation.


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## Fury

I wouldn't personalise it. I know you're probably dispairing about English not being such a poetic language as French  but this particular question has arisen from the fact that everything is either masculine or feminine in French ! It's therefore quite a natural progression to personify things !
I agree with all the native speakers - keep it neutral ! The narrator should talk about "our" town, "our fountain" etc. You don't want to confuse people listening to the guide (the majority of whom won't be "New Age" adepts, let's face it !!!)
It would be different if you were doing a marketing campaign targeting a specific group of arty-farty consumers... Always think of who're you're aiming your message at and adapt your style accordingly.
Hope that helps !


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## pioupiouz

Thank you for setting me straight, my decision is taken, no more "new age" tour just a plain usual one that I hope everybody will appreciate.
Thank you again and give my best regards to Bonnie Scotland (the most beautiful place in the world, after my island of course) and tell "her" that I really miss "her"


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## sam's mum

Good decision. I think a town talking to me directly would make me feel very uncomfortable.


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