# How do you greet a friend? Physical Contact - Greetings and Customs



## TimeHP

Ciao.
Il corpo, le mani, il contatto fisico sono importanti nella vostra cultura durante il saluto? 
In Italia se due persone si conoscono poco, si stringono la mano destra, mentre tra amici e persone di famiglia ci si abbraccia o ci si scambia uno o due baci.
So che in Francia i baci possono essere quattro.
Invece in Giappone e in Cina, se non sbaglio, difficilmente ci si tocca per salutarsi... 

Hi.
How do you greet? Is the physical contact important? Do you avoid physical contact or do you greet effusively?
Ciao


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## Etcetera

Ciao Time.
In Russia, the way of greeting depends strongly on the situation. On formal occasions, people usually shake hands. But their behavior on informal occasions may vary. 
I myself prefer to say Hi or Hello, but without any physical contact. However, if it is my *very* close friend, we can embrace. Many girls from out University kiss each other on the cheek when they meet. Shaking hands also may take place when two lads meet, but not so often. 
Actually, the way of greeting isn't the same all over Russia. In St. Petersburg people generally avoid physical contact, except for shaking hands (we Petersburgers are known as very reserved people), but in Moscow embraces and kisses are very popular among friends.


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## danielfranco

In Mexico it seemed to depend on the social circle you belong to: if you're well-to-do, more than likely you will engage in all that kissing on the cheek while shaking hands. If you are from more humble social circles there might be a lot of hand shaking (even secret hand shakes). When I was little and we used to travel to rural places (I think my dad did some sort of missionary work), I'd notice that rural people would hardly look at you in the eyes and would greet you with a very, very, very limp hand shake.
Over here in the States, I've noticed that the hand shake is a very big deal, and is often done in a bone-crunching, rather earnest manner.


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## badgrammar

Here in France, cheek-kissing is the norm.  Usually you kind of kiss the air as you touch cheeks with the person.  Some do one or two kisses, left/right (Paris region).  But there are variations: When you go to other regions, the number of kisses varies , sometimes reaching 5 alternating kisses.  This leads to a lot of confusion when you kiss someone from somewhere else - you go to do two kisses, and after two they continue, but you do not, or vice-versa.  I always find it akward.

The other variation is that you can make the kiss more or less meaningful by the way you do it:  When you want to show someone that the kiss is more than a perfunctory greeting, you can really kiss their cheek instead of air kissing it.  This kiss can have nuances that go from "I really love you, good buddy" to "I'd really like to see you naked, hot mama!"  

Men often forego the kiss and shake hands.

In the US, people often hug eachother as a greeting.  I used to be comfortable with that before I moved to France, now I have a hard time giving people those full-body hugs when I go back home!


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## Chaska Ñawi

danielfranco said:
			
		

> (Re Mexico) When I was little and we used to travel to rural places, I'd notice that rural people would hardly look at you in the eyes and would greet you with a very, very, very limp hand shake.



In the Zapotec communities where I stayed in Oaxaca, the custom was to touch hands palm to palm, very lightly.  It was considered rude and invasive to actually grasp somebody's hand.


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## Etcetera

Hi badgrammar,
what you've told us about French way of greeting each other was really surprising to me! To say the truth, I used to think it impossible to greet somebody more ceremoniously than some Russians do!


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## Gatamariposa

In the UK it all just depends on how well you know someone.  Shaking hands is the most formal, there is even bowing and curtseying!  I have male friends who hug when they meet.  It just seems to depend on the familiarity and the context of the meeting.

Purrs Gatita


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## cherine

In Egypt, there's no physical contact between males and females, except for hands shaking.
Girls can kiss each others when they meet, if they're rather close or friends. Same thing between boys. If the degree of acquaintness is lower, we just shake hands, sometimes we just nod and smile.
With my colleagues at work, it's a bit silly kissing each and everyday, so we just say hi or goodmorning. We kiss only after long vacations.


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## emma42

In England the 2 to 3 kisses has become very common amongst the middle classes.  Only between women and women/men though.  Men will usually shake hands.  If they are close friends they might hug.  Sometimes, if men really like eachother (not in a homosexual way), they will shake hands and then one of them will take the initiative and hug the other.  I like to see this.

I don't know what gatamariposa means about bowing and curtseying.  Surely that is only done towards royalty etc?  Having said that, many people will not bow or curtsey to royalty nowadays.  The Prime Minister's wife won't.


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## maxiogee

I'm a handshake or a brief hug merchant. I hate the air-kiss, and have difficulty telling that to certain female cousins, who refuse to get the message.


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## GiovanniO

In the USA, the firm right-handed shake is the norm.
Depending on familiarity and the length of time since your last meeting, there may be some hugging or kissing, especially with women.
Personally, I agree with maxiogee regarding the air-kiss; why bother?
I'm either going to plant *one* solidly on her right cheek or stop at the handshake.
The only man I ever kissed was papà.


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## linguist786

Since I am a Muslim, strictly speaking, there should be no physical contact between a man and a woman who potentially _could_ get married. (So that excludes things like uncle & niece, granddaughter and grandfather, brother and sister etc)

So when i went to Réunion (french island) where I went to meet relatives (as well as to have a good time lol!), the normal greeting is the cheek kissing, just as in France. Since I myself am quite a strict Muslim, I refused to do this with gayr-mehrams*. I did however do it with my grandma and aunties etc. Obviously I didn't refuse it in a "snobbish way" - I honestly just said "Non s'il vous plaît.. Je fais pas cela". Usually, they just said "ah.. ne t'en fais pas" or something. 

Were people offended? I don't know, maybe. But my religion is more important than greeting someone properly "according to the norm" in that country if it means physical contact with a gayr-mehram.

* = gayr-mehram (someone you could potentially get married to)

Opinions?


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## emma42

That is really interesting, Linguist.  It's a difficult situation, n'est-ce pas, because people can get really offended in these deeply significant cultural exchanges.  I suppose the thing to do would be to apologise profusely and explain that you don't want to be offensive.  I don't mean that you should be sorry that you are following the dictates of your heart and religion, but that you make every effort to show you mean no offence.  That's what I would do anyway!  I am not criticising your actions at all, just proffering my own opinion.


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## linguist786

emma42 said:
			
		

> That is really interesting, Linguist. It's a difficult situation, n'est-ce pas, because people can get really offended in these deeply significant cultural exchanges. I suppose the thing to do would be to apologise profusely and explain that you don't want to be offensive. I don't mean that you should be sorry that you are following the dictates of your heart and religion, but that you make every effort to show you mean no offence. That's what I would do anyway! I am not criticising your actions at all, just proffering my own opinion.


That's a very good suggestion! To be honest, I was asked by one of my female cousins (in private) why I refuse to do that and I explained. She totally understood and was kind of "impressed" that I was "strong enough" to refuse such a "normal" thing.
To be honest, I did get a "weird" look sometimes when I refused it lol - but I didn't really care to be honest - they actually didn't come close when i met them again. They probably thought "hmm.. that guy who doesn't cheek-kiss" lol. I'm actually planning on going back there (for my year abroad when I start French at University next year!) and I'm sure people will get used to me refusing to greet that way.


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## swift_precision

LOL linguist nice story man

Well, I can say that generally in the US, handshaking is the norm as has been previously stated. When I give people handshakes, I believe in giving a firm handshake---not that flimsy bs of a handshake that I am sometimes greeted with. I don't care if it's a woman or a man, I will give a firm handshake which, to me indicates that I am interested in meeting the person's acquaintance. Now, the greeting I give a to a friend of mine will consist of a varied form of the handshake which is impossible to describe in words; seeing is believing in this case. I don't hug at all. To me that is waaaaayyy to close for someone to be to me. If I was providing consolation for someone than a hug may be granted but for everyday greetings? You've got to be kidding me. Now if I don't hug do you think I would do that cheek-kiss thing? Yea right..if you don't know you better ask somebody...lol If someone tried to do that to me without warning I might accidentally hit them in the face lol! Nah I'd probably warn them first, then if they tried it again then well...


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## Joelline

I've been told (and have noticed) that people from outside the the USA think that our handshake is too vigorous. I noticed that the French, for example, prefer what I call the "one-pump" handshake: clasp hands, up, down, that's it! On the other hand, I've seen Americans give the "presidential" handshake: clasp, pump, pump, pump, then put the free hand over the clasped hands and pump again (or just squeeze)! UGH!  

I think any physical contact that is toooo effusive really is over the top (whether it's 3, 4, 5 air-kisses or the "presidential" handshake). I prefer a warm smile and one pump (except for close friends and relatives).

*Linguist*: I have to ask: is it permissable to shake hands with women who are "gayr-mehram"?


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## emma42

Hey, Joelline, don't your feet get cold? ("one pump".  Sorry.)

If there's one thing I've learned from this thread, it's to make sure I have fully researched greeting customs in foreign parts.  I must say, though, one thing that really gets my goat is when I shake hands with other women and their hand is like a little fragile fish.  Please!


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## Joelline

Emma, yes, they do!

And you mean a damp, cold, little fragile fish, n'est-ce pas?  Eeek!  It takes everything I can do not to wipe my hand on my skirt!

Why aren't you asleep, my dear?


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## la reine victoria

On being introduced to someone I always shake hands.  I used to say "How do you do?" but this is now considered rather formal (remember I am ancient) so I simply say, "Hello".  I have a "bone-crushing" handshake.  Like Emma and Joelline I can't bear the limp, wet-fish handshake.

I hug all my close female friends and kiss them firmly, once, on the cheek.  My close male friends will receive a hug and a kiss on the lips.  I've never had any complaints!    Even my gay friends are happy to receive a kiss from me.  A greeting kiss is very different from a sexual kiss.  

My younger son has inherited a lot of my personality and always gives me a big bear hug and a brief kiss on the lips.  My elder son is more restrained and gives me a gentle hug and the suggestion of a kiss on my cheek.

I believe physical contact is very important.  Everyone needs a hug now and then unless, of course, they are very reserved.

Some of my men friends will hug each other.  This is often accompanied by a "slap" on the back.

Re bowing and curtseying.  I recall that the Queen, a few years ago, made it known that this was no longer de rigeur.  However, most people still choose to do so.  All the members of the royal family, including her children, still bow or curtsey to her.  I have also witnessed the kiss on the cheek between the Queen and close friends.



LRV


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## emma42

Re "limp, damp fish" - it's not so much the dampness as the limpness I object to.  As if their poor little fragile lady-hand is only used to being kissed and they don't need or want to shake hands "properly"!  Bêêêêêrk!

I really really appreciate it when another woman gives me a proper handshake.  I see it as a meeting of equals.  I am probably reading far too much into it and being prejudiced against wet fishes.

I was not in bed because I cannot tear myself away from THIS.


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## cherine

Joelline said:
			
		

> *Linguist*: I have to ask: is it permissable to shake hands with women who are "gayr-mehram"?


I'm taking the liberty of answering this question -please forgive me Linguist - as I'm also muslim.
Religiously speaking : shaking hands between men and women is not permissable. But as many people don't really care that much about religious things, *or try to find a possible compromise between their believes and the social customs-* you'll find many men-women shaking hands.
Personally, when I'm introduced to someone, I don't start by holding out my hand to greet that person, but if he holds out his, I feel it's rude to let him down so I shake his hand.

A colleague of mine -a guy- has been to Spain, where -as I understood- it's ok to kiss people when introduced to them, he said that when he was introduced to a girl he shake her hand but when she bent (not the right verb I know, but I couldn't find the proper one ) to kiss his cheek he backed off. She was a bit astonished -of course!- but he explained to her that it's against his religious principles, and she got it ok.

So I agree with you, when people of different cultures meet, they should pay attention to their differences and try to understand them.


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## Vanda

For us? Of course it is. We're used to kiss friends , 2 or 3 kisses according to the region, and to hug and/or kiss - men and women - in social environment. For business environment: shake hands and some slapping in the back for men. We like it this way: I mean, being open to physical contact.


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## viera

It's a shame that hand-kissing has all but disappeared.  It was a pleasure to see President Chirac kiss Angela Merkel's hand when she came to Paris recently.  He looked so gallant!


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## maxiogee

linguist786 said:
			
		

> Opinions?




Please see the thread I have started here


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## panjandrum

Apart from the very common hand-shaking, the extent of physical contact varies a great deal here, with very little pattern or logic to it. I was trying to summarise, but it is much too complicated and varies depending on the relationship, how long since I saw them, the context, the generation ...

So, here is my personal report:
Some get no contact.
Some get handshakes.
Some get kisses on the cheek - NOT air kisses.
Some get hugs - the genuine affectionate squeezy kind.

I've noticed, though, that hugging women is an uncomplicated squeezy hug that we both enjoy.
Hugging men is very often accompanied by that strange back-slapping thing that men do when they hug (here).

Is the physical contact important?
This is difficult to answer without misleading.
Yes, it is very important, and the form of contact communicates a great deal. But I am entirely content with the relationships that involve no physical contact whatsoever


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## swift_precision

I think I might've have been a little too harsh in my last statement.  I think I would hug a person if I had not seen them in a long time.  But to hug someone everyday as a greeting?  That is excessive.  I think the only person I would allow do that to me is my mom and that's about it.  Like panjandrum I am perfectly content without having any form of physical contact.


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## linguist786

cherine said:
			
		

> I'm taking the liberty of answering this question -please forgive me Linguist - as I'm also muslim.
> Religiously speaking : shaking hands between men and women is not permissable. But as many people don't really care that much about religious things, *or try to find a possible compromise between their believes and the social customs-* you'll find many men-women shaking hands.
> Personally, when I'm introduced to someone, I don't start by holding out my hand to greet that person, but if he holds out his, I feel it's rude to let him down so I shake his hand.
> 
> A colleague of mine -a guy- has been to Spain, where -as I understood- it's ok to kiss people when introduced to them, he said that when he was introduced to a girl he shake her hand but when she bent (not the right verb I know, but I couldn't find the proper one ) to kiss his cheek he backed off. She was a bit astonished -of course!- but he explained to her that it's against his religious principles, and she got it ok.
> 
> So I agree with you, when people of different cultures meet, they should pay attention to their differences and try to understand them.


Thanks you! I couldn't have given a better answer.


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## panjabigator

In Indian culture, I'd say that physical contact between non family members is not permissible.  So if I were living in India, and I wanted to hang out with the girl across the street, we’d be the talk of the neighborhood.  My family is pretty cool about everything so its not an issue in my house.  But my grandmother actually told one of my girl cousins that its not appropriate for her to hug me.  But it didn’t change anything…my cousin and I didn’t really care.

   Anyway, greetings in India vary.  In a business atmosphere, handshakes are the norm, and I’d venture to say that it’s ok between women and men.  India is trying to westernize itself so much that pretty much whatever the West does is ok by them.  A traditional greeting, though, is dictated by faith.  Among Hindu’s and Sikhs, the religious greeting is said, Namaste and Sat Sri Akal  respectively, and this is accompanied by clasping both hands together in front of your chest, as if you were praying.  When walking in temple, for example, sometimes I run into a lot of people (adults mainly) that I know, so I just perform the hand gesture…it is enough. When greeting elders, another common practice is touching the feet.  I’m not too familiar with this because my parents never really enforced this on us, but I think it’s a respect issue, and that through bending down to touch ones feet, you are humbling yourself.  And most times, the person will stop you half way.  Its really hard to explain.  I would only do this with the older generation…for example when I saw my great grandmother in India, I did this.  And sometimes when I see my parents after a month at college I do it, but that’s a recent edition.
   I can’t really talk too much about Islamic greetings in India, but I presume they are the same all over the Islamic world.  The one thing that comes to mind is “Adab arz hai” and there is a hand gesture that accompanies that, but it’s a hard one to explain.  Let me gather my thoughts on that one before I post…or if someone else cares to elaborate!

By the way, the transliteration for <adab a'rz hai> is presented below:

اداب حرض


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## elyssia

People in china shake hands  to express that you attach great importance to the person you are shaking hands with , for friends if they haven't met for a long time ,they will shake hands to show warmth . For the  common friends , we just see " Ni hao " in chinese , in English it means "Hi ", people don't kiss cheeks or something except that children kiss their parents or grandparents . Kissing as greeting is rare in china .
 I once noticed that my foreign friends  kissed  the cheeks of my boss's wife  to show friendliness ,the situation made us present embarrased.


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## Joelline

elyssia,

Please forgive my complete ignorance of modern Chinese culture as I ask this question: does no one bow at all nowadays (even to older people)? Or perhaps bowing is used for situations other than greetings?

Joelline


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## Etcetera

viera said:
			
		

> It's a shame that hand-kissing has all but disappeared. It was a pleasure to see President Chirac kiss Angela Merkel's hand when she came to Paris recently. He looked so gallant!


Oh yes, I agree wholeheartedly. So nice a custom! I remember how impressed I was when a man to whom I was just introduced kissed my hand. So gallant, indeed.


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## linguist786

panjabigator said:
			
		

> By the way, the transliteration for <adab a'rz hai> is presented below:
> 
> اداب حرض


Just to be pedantic, not quite. It's:

*ﮯﮨ ﺽﺮﻋ ﺏﺍﺪﺁ*


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## zebedee

One of the things I found strange when I first arrived in Spain was to see male-male cheek kissing within families on meeting up: Brother-in-law to brother-in-law, adult nephew to uncle. 'Strange' because coming from England I was more used to friendly back slapping or hand shaking or just a simple 'Hiya' with a smile or a wave of the hand.

This thread also talks about different greetings round the world.


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## TimeHP

> Kissing as greeting is rare in china .


 
Yes, I know. Two friends of mine are Chinese, both living in Italy and married to an Italian man (...not the same man). I always kissed them when we met. When I discovered that kissing in China is quite uncommon I apologized, but they told me that it's ok. And now, when I hesitate, they give me a sort of air kiss.




> I am entirely content with the relationships that involve no physical contact whatsoever


 


> Like panjandrum I am perfectly content without having any form of physical contact.


 
Why? I'm curious about that.
Do you think it's linked with your sense of living-space?
If a stranger gets near me in the train or on the beach, I feel my sense of living-space waking up and grumbling...
But when someone that I like hugs and kisses me I feel at my ease.  
And of course I kiss only people that I like. I couldn't kiss someone that I can't bear...

Ciao


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## Etcetera

TimeHP said:
			
		

> Why? I'm curious about that.
> Do you think it's linked with your sense of living-space?
> If a stranger gets near me in the train or on the beach, I feel my sense of living-space waking up and grumbling...
> But when someone that I like hugs and kisses me I feel at my ease.
> And of course I kiss only people that I like. I couldn't kiss someone that I can't bear...
> 
> Ciao


By the way, sense of living-space also plays an important role. As well as the disctinction between strangers and those whom we like. 
But still it depends mostly on the person's character and preferences. However many friends I have, there are few enough whom I actually hug when we meet. 
The problem with greetings is actually that on formal occasions, we have to deal with rather unpleasant and simply unfamiliar people too often...


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## vince

viera said:
			
		

> It's a shame that hand-kissing has all but disappeared.  It was a pleasure to see President Chirac kiss Angela Merkel's hand when she came to Paris recently.  He looked so gallant!


What do you mean by gallant?

I disagree with hand-kissing, for it is not a greeting between equals. Air kissing, hugging, and shaking hands are reciprocal, whereas hand-kissing is done by the man.


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## Seana

Hi,
Pheraps I will stir up an anthill, but may I ask what do you think about kissing the women's hand at greeting 
This old-fashioned custom is still existed in Poland apart of shaking hand or three air kisses on the cheek (particularly among middle class women or young girls). Personally, I don't like greeting customs with too much physical contacts.


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## Etcetera

Nor do I, Seana. But hand-kissing is so nice a custom. Glad to hear that it still exists somewhere...


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## emma42

Oh, Vince, I so agree with you.  The thing to do is, when you proffer your hand for a handshake and the man tried to kiss it, let him lift it to his lips and then...smack him in the mouth!  That will learn* him.

*incorrect/colloquial for "teach"


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## la reine victoria

emma42 said:
			
		

> Oh, Vince, I so agree with you. The thing to do is, when you proffer your hand for a handshake and the man tried to kiss it, let him lift it to his lips and then...smack him in the mouth! That will learn* him.
> 
> *incorrect/colloquial for "teach"


 

To be kissed on the hand is a wonderful compliment.

Would you seriously hit a man in the face, Emma, if he tried to kiss your hand?  How insulting to him.  

Maybe you're a hard line feminist.  A chaqu'un etc. . . . .




LRV


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## Seana

Oh, I agree with you LRV,  I am probably old fashioned woman but I am not as far as this way assertive, in spite of I am not always satisfied from such a contact I would never do it. It could be  so much insulted.


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## meltem

I want to ask the muslums here. I don't know where they're from (I guess they're arabic??) Are most of the muslums in their country like them, not kissing girls on the cheeks? Because in Turkey most of the youth in cities kiss on the cheeks (man-man, girl-girl, man-girl), and they're also muslums.


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## vince

a compliment?
it depends

whether you want to be remembered as the sweet, well-dressed, pretty and obedient wife of a man in high society, naive and innocent femininity. basically the archetypical traditional "fair lady" to be put on a pedestal, separate from the men.

or do you want to be remembered as that independent woman who you had the greatest time with debating politics and science, who you would love to work with as a colleague, or hire as a visiting scholar for your university.


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## maxiogee

vince said:
			
		

> I disagree with hand-kissing, for it is not a greeting between equals.



Any woman who wishes to kiss my hand is more than welcome to.
I'll even consider washing it for her


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## la reine victoria

Vince, I see in your public profile that among your interests are "minority, gay and women's rights".


I see no reason to comment further on whether hand-kissing is a compliment or not.

I'll simply repeat that, as a bra-wearing female who loves the company of men, I consider it to be so.




LRV


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## Seana

Being such the emancipated girls don't you really feel sometimes for a moment that it would be nice to be a sweet little woman knowing nothing without great ambitions and responsibilities for entire world. 
Having the stressful work in everyday life I have such the moments very often.


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## vince

la reine victoria said:
			
		

> I see no reason to comment further on whether hand-kissing is a compliment or not.
> 
> I'll simply repeat that, as a bra-wearing female who loves the company of men, I consider it to be so.



What I said is that it depends on the situation. If you want to be complimented on being a "lady" to be put on a pedestal, that's fine. If you want to be complimented on being a woman with brains, someone with intelligence, insight, independence, ingenuity, and entrepreneurship (without mentioning your husband), then I'd skip the hand-kiss an opt for a hand-shake instead.



			
				Seana said:
			
		

> Being such the emancipated girls don't you really feel sometimes for a moment that it would be nice to be a sweet little woman knowing nothing without great ambitions and responsibilities for entire world.
> Having the stressful work in everyday life I have such the moments very often.



With rights come responsabilities.


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## maxiogee

vince said:
			
		

> What I said is that it depends on the situation. If you want to be complimented on being a "lady" to be put on a pedestal, that's fine. If you want to be complimented on being a woman with brains, someone with intelligence, insight, independence, ingenuity, and entrepreneurship (without mentioning your husband), then I'd skip the hand-kiss an opt for a hand-shake instead.



Is this an either/or situation?
Can a lady not be complimented on her brains, or do only women have brains?
Why does a husband creep in when entrepreneurship is mentioned? Can a single woman not be an entrepreneur (or do we use a French-feminine ending on that ~euse?)


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## se16teddy

In England, people only shake hands when they are introduced for the first time, and almost never again. It might go on to hugs and kisses, but they never shake hands again, except perhaps to say adieu. When I first worked in Germany I found it very odd that people who had known each other at work for years shook hands with one another every morning when they came in to work.


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## emma42

No, I would not really hit him in the gob. That was a little joke! (or was it?)

I do think that handkissing, however you dress it up (it's respectful, it's nice etc) is a symbol of outdated patriarchal attitudes. You may sneer and say, "but it's only a kiss on the hand" and, indeed, it is. However, it is such a symbol, as is opening doors and pulling chairs out for "the little lady". Please! I can open my own door.

This does not mean that one cannot be pretty, delightful, intelligent and assertive, if one feels like it. I am sometimes all four and have even been known to wear the odd silken dress!


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## JonnieJag

About Jacques kissing Angela's hand: our president has a bit of a reputation for being unpredictable and he is, after all, the French president. Of course people here don't go round kissing women's hands and when Jacques went for it I did think :"Watch out, she's going to slap his face!"


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## la reine victoria

Vince,



> If you want to be complimented on being a woman with brains, someone with intelligence, insight, independence, ingenuity, and entrepreneurship


 
I am all of the above but still maintain that a kiss on the hand is a compliment.  I certainly don't seek to be put on a pedestal.

People who are placed on pedestals eventually show traits which get them knocked off.  Nobody is perfect after all.  Idols with feet of clay come to mind.



LRV


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## la reine victoria

> emma42 No, I would not really hit him in the gob. That was a little joke! (or was it?)


 
I don't know!  You said it.



> However, it is such a symbol, as is opening doors and pulling chairs out for "the little lady". Please! I can open my own door.


 
I appreciate old fashioned courtesy.  Because a gentleman opens a door for me and makes sure I'm comfortable at the table in no way makes me "the little lady". 

This may surprise you.  I actually open doors for other people because I am courteous!  They always say "thank you".




LRV


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## emma42

Why does a gentleman have to make sure you are comfortable?  Why don't you both make sure the other is comfortable?  That's what I do.  I also open doors for other people, but we are talking specifically about men "doing things" for the ladies.  And it doesn't surprise me that you open doors for people - I am sure you are a very polite and kind person.


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## la reine victoria

emma42 said:
			
		

> Why does a gentleman have to make sure you are comfortable? Why don't you both make sure the other is comfortable? That's what I do. I also open doors for other people, *but we are talking specifically about men "doing things" for the ladies.* And it doesn't surprise me that you open doors for people - I am sure you are a very polite and kind person.


 

I was talking about your point of pulling out a chair for "the little lady". 

By your logic you obviously pull out a chair for each other.  

We should be talking about "Greetings: is physical contact important?"



LRV


----------



## emma42

You haven't answered my question, Your Maj.

"pull chair out for eachother" - Well, we could both pull out our own chairs, couldn't we (gasp!) and then lean over the table and have a great big snog.

I know we are danger of going o-t.


----------



## linguist786

meltem said:
			
		

> I want to ask the muslums here. I don't know where they're from (I guess they're arabic??) Are most of the muslums in their country like them, not kissing girls on the cheeks? Because in Turkey most of the youth in cities kiss on the cheeks (man-man, girl-girl, man-girl), and they're also muslums.


My friend, not everyone practises their religion to the letter. Of course in Islam this shouldn't happen - but it does because people just don't practise strictly enough.

That's why one should never judge a religion by what the followers themselves do - (not that I'm saying you do) - we all make mistakes.


----------



## vince

What you would consider a "mistake" might be considered perfectly fine to another Muslim.

There's a reason why most religions have sects and internal divisions. The Bible (which Christians consider the Word of God) says that women must be veiled in church and not talk until after the service, when they are free to ask their husband questions, but most Western Christian churches don't follow this, they believe this is subject to interpretation. People who insist on taking the bible literally (who are a minority) might accuse these churches of making a mistake, but it is for them to decide their religious tenets.

I think people should focus on the principles of their religion, not on the rituals. I've seen women who claim to be Muslim who wear khimar but then go and wear makeup as well. Does this not defeat the purpose of wearing khimar?


----------



## maxiogee

emma42 said:
			
		

> Why does a gentleman have to make sure you are comfortable?  Why don't you both make sure the other is comfortable?  That's what I do.  I also open doors for other people, but we are talking specifically about men "doing things" for the ladies.  And it doesn't surprise me that you open doors for people - I am sure you are a very polite and kind person.



As an inveterate door-opener, it leads to all sorts of greetings (a quick "hello" there to the topic as I proceed to ignore it) and is something I do for anyone likely to reach the door within a certain time (were I to let it go) which would find it swinging shut in their face or having shut just before they got there.
I do it regardless of gender, and I stay a bit longer if the approaching person appears infirm or encumbered.

As to the chair thing, I think that the host, whichever that is to be, has the duty to ensure the comfort of the guest.
I hold someone's coat for them also - again without consideration of gender - but I don't see it as condescending.

The motives people ascribe to actions are not always the motives actually behind the actions. In other words, I cannot be held responsible for someone's opinions on my actions.


----------



## Etcetera

vince said:
			
		

> I think people should focus on the principles of their religion, not on the rituals.


That's it! 
I think it's better to be sincere in heart than be pedantic about rituals.


----------



## meltem

se16teddy said:
			
		

> When I first worked in Germany I found it very odd that people who had known each other at work for years shook hands with one another every morning when they came in to work.


 

Is it true that (and I heard from a german so) german boys never kiss their parents, just hug if ever? And german men never kiss on the cheeks.If this is true, this is so so weird to me. Then, they're the coldest of Europe.


----------



## badgrammar

As per hand-kissing, it always strikes this "little lady" as too overtly-charming, kind of a pick-up move, typically accompanied by a compliment and an intense stare into my eyes.  It makes me uncomfortable.  But it depends on who does it, I am sure there have been times it did not bother me because the person was from another culture.  It does somehow seem servile and somewhat leacherous .  But some ladies and gentlemen like it.

And now, OT, particularly @ Vince, it is perfectly possible to be an assertive, successful business woman, to be a highly-valued colleaugue, to be a decision-maker and someone others can and do count on - in both professional and private domains... all the while (gasp!) enjoying certain galentries on the part of one's spouse, companion or social acquaintances.  

In abusiness setting, it's not appropriate, but in my private life, a minimum is appreciated.  Not necessarily _expected_, but _appreciated_.  It's part of the male-female "mating dance"  to me.  Luckily, we are all different and I'm sure many disagree with me.



> whether you want to be remembered as the sweet, well-dressed, pretty and obedient wife of a man in high society, naive and innocent femininity. basically the archetypical traditional "fair lady" to be put on a pedestal, separate from the men.
> 
> or do you want to be remembered as that independent woman who you had the greatest time with debating politics and science, who you would love to work with as a colleague, or hire as a visiting scholar for your university.



Wow, those are slim choices there, my friend...  Is there absolutely no in-between?  You're either this Barbie-doll, trophy wife or this intelligent, worldly woman?  Do you see no gray areas here?  Really?

If the woman in your second paragraph one day confessed to you during a conversation about relationships "You know, I actually think it's nice when someone I'm dating opens my door" does your perception of her then revert to the description in your first paragraph?  She loses all credibility in your eyes as an intelligent, independent woman? 

Talk about males repressing females! Here's a guy implying that if women don't fit into _his_ definition of what an independent woman is, he then relegates them to a sub-category of women who are submissive and inferior. (pretty and obedient wives, naive and innocent, archetypical traditional "fair lady", to be put on a pedestal, separate from the men.)

Anywho, thanks, Vince, for placing those of us who enjoy certain galant behaviors in our personal lives into this rather tidy box which you, a man, have so delightfully defined .


----------



## la reine victoria

emma42 said:
			
		

> "pull chair out for eachother" - Well, we could both pull out our own chairs, couldn't we (gasp!) and then lean over the table and have a great big snog.


 

Another example of extremely unlady-like behaviour. Have you no consideration for your fellow diners?

When I am taken out by a gentleman I appreciate the trouble they go to - such as taking my coat, pulling out a chair for me, replenishing my wine glass, escorting me home. It is known as etiquette. Women's libbers seem to be doing their best to destroy this. I've even heard some of them refuse a seat on a bus, offered to them by a gentleman. What a snub!  

My own sons were brought up to behave courteously towards women. When either of them take me out for a meal they observe all the rituals. My late husband did the same, often with the addition of a gift of flowers - freesias, as it happens, which are the flowers I wore in my hair on our wedding day.




LRV


----------



## emma42

If anyone is able to produce a reasoned argument as to why a man should take off a woman's coat, pull out her chair for her, fill her wine glass, buy her flowers, as opposed to both men and women doing similar things _for eachother_, then I will happily consider changing my mind on those matters.  If the only "reason" to be proffered is "tradition", well, I am sure we can all produce examples of that phenomena which might not be so welcome.


----------



## badgrammar

Ah Emma, no response will ever change your mind, reasoned or not.

Men and women do do those things for eachother...  it's reciprocal, men and women do nice things for eachother. 

And I suppose I believe that the simple fact that _some men_ and _some women_ enjoy these gestures is reason enough.


----------



## emma42

Well, badgrammar, as you have not offered one, I suppose we will never know.

"Men and women do nice things for eachother".  I totally agree and thoroughly enjoy the fact.  I have never said otherwise.  It has been others who insist that men do such and such for women.  Please do not move the goalposts.


----------



## Seana

I think that everybody who is self confidence and have faith to the frankness of his partner's intention shouln't be afraid of doing such the nice things. 
I think that male and women's duties and domains should be upheld between us (men and women). Our husbands or partners male gallant and mannerliness are things which we should be pleased. 
After all our sex personality features are so much different this way. 
What are we still try to prove that it is differently for?


----------



## Etcetera

That's it, Seana. Frankly, I don't understand what's the matter of paying so much attention to formal side of the men-women interaction. 
I wouldn't take an offence for a man who don't pull a chair for me or take my coat, but if he does, it only speaks in his favour. After all, doing such nice and polite things, men show their respect towards us women and girls!


----------



## emma42

I shall continue to pull out my own chair, as I am not without hands, and send flowers to the man of my choice.


----------



## zebedee

MOD NOTE:

You yourselves admitted a few posts ago that you were veering off-topic.


			
				La Reine said:
			
		

> We should be talking about "Greetings: is physical contact important?"





			
				emma said:
			
		

> I know we are danger of going o-t.


And then you just proceeded to carry on anyway  !!!!

Please don't hijack other people's threads. 

If you want to talk about another topic, it's as easy as clicking on NEW THREAD. 

Thank you for your cooperation

zebedee
Culture Moderator


----------



## badgrammar

meltem said:
			
		

> Is it true that (and I heard from a german so) german boys never kiss their parents, just hug if ever? And german men never kiss on the cheeks.If this is true, this is so so weird to me. Then, they're the coldest of Europe.



Who have you been talking to so much about kissing, Meltem?

I can't imagine that to be true, but I'm not German, so no guarantees.  But I'm sure I have seen German parents and children kissing and certainly hugging.


----------



## natasha2000

emma42 said:
			
		

> Hey, Joelline, don't your feet get cold? ("one pump". Sorry.)
> 
> If there's one thing I've learned from this thread, it's to make sure I have fully researched greeting customs in foreign parts. I must say, though, one thing that really gets my goat is when I shake hands with other women and their hand is like a little fragile fish. Please!


 
Ay Emma, I met some men who also shake hands like this...  

I don't know why, but as soon as someone shakes my hand like this, I develop instant feeling of rejection (reluctance?) towards that person... Silly, but it's true...

In Serbia we usually shake hands, (clasp, one pump, as Badgrammar decribed) when we meet someone for the first time. When we meet again, its just hello, and nothing more. If a person is very close, we might kiss each other (three times!) if we did not see each other for a long time or in some special ocasions, but if we see each other on a daily basis, it's just hello. In business concept, two business partner would just shake hands. Normally, the kiss will occur only if one of the parties is a woman. Two men never kiss ieach other. They might hug each other, but this would happen in a ver, very special ocasion. Never on a daily basis.

I think in the country people are more ready to kiss than in the city. By the way, I hate weddings, especially whan I am a bride or best woman(does this exist? it's female best man), because then all guests pass to congratulate with a hand shake and three kisses!  Disgusting, because I certainly do not feel comfortable to be kissed by completely unknown people... And imagine the wedding with more than 100 guests ...

So imagine me, in Spain... jajajajaj Where everybody kisses everybody, for good morning, for good day, for good night... 

The other odd and pretty funny thing is difference in number of kisses... At the beginning, the situations as Badgrammar explained to happen in France, were also very famiiar to me. Now I got used to Spanish kissing, and when I go to Serbia, I start to kiss everyone and now I am the wierd one...


----------



## emma42

I would advise them to stay away from Barcelona.

It would seem that far eastern countries (sorry to use such a Eurocentric term) do not like lots of physical contact in greeting.  Thinking about it, I remember attempting to hug a Thai friend (female) a few times and her not seeming to like it.  I now remember to just "do" the traditional Thai greeting of hands clasped in front of chest.  I did not keep trying to hug her in an attempt to change her mind, I just forgot!


----------



## mithrellas

emma42 said:
			
		

> I would advise them to stay away from Barcelona.
> 
> It would seem that far eastern countries (sorry to use such a Eurocentric term) do not like lots of physical contact in greeting. Thinking about it, I remember attempting to hug a Thai friend (female) a few times and her not seeming to like it. I now remember to just "do" the traditional Thai greeting of hands clasped in front of chest. I did not keep trying to hug her in an attempt to change her mind, I just forgot!


 
Maybe I have not a good English level (anyone who wants to correct me is alwais welcome) so I don't see the point why people must stay away from Barcelona. 

Barcelona is a beautiful city where you can find nice people (and others not so nice as in every city/country in the world).

For business we have the shaking hands with customers and suppliers. 
We just say good morning/ evening to our coleages at the office (no kissing, no shaking). 

To relatives and friends we usually kiss each other (two kisses, one on each cheek) and some also hug each other and you can see this for man-woman, man-man or woman-woman. 

We also kiss someone we just met when a friend or relative introduce this person to us (this is more like badgrammar explained, you do not kiss the cheek you put your cheeks together and kiss the air.

But we do not kiss everybody we just met. If you go, for example, to an English academy for the first time no body will kiss you, nor hug you, they will say just "hello". 
So, the two-cheek-kissing thing is for relatives, friends and to someone introduced by someone you know.

So you don't have to worry if you come to visit Barcelona (or any other city in Spain) as a tourist because no body will kiss you if you ask someone were is a good restaurant.  

Anyway we do not force anyone to kiss or be kissed. We can read between lines?? and if we see that someone is not confortable we do not kiss him/her or we appologice if we have already done it and also there will be no problem if someone just say that this is not confortable for him/her.  

(Was that understandable or all a mess?)


----------



## natasha2000

mithrellas said:
			
		

> Maybe I have not  DON'T HAVE a good English level (anyone who wants to correct me is alwais  ALWAYS welcome) so I don't see the point why people must stay away from Barcelona.
> 
> Barcelona is a beautiful city where you can find nice people (and others  OTHER, not so nice as  LIKE in every city/country in the world).
> 
> For IN business RELATIONSHIPS, we have the shaking SHAKE hands with customers and suppliers.
> We just say good morning/ evening to our coleages at the office (no kissing, no shaking).
> 
> To WITH relatives and friends, we usually kiss each other (two kisses, one on  AT each cheek) and some also hug each other and you can see this for  between man-woman, man-man or woman-woman.
> 
> We also kiss someone we just met when a friend or relative introduce*S* this person to us (this is more like badgrammar explained, you do not kiss the cheek, you put your cheeks together and kiss the air.)
> 
> But we do not kiss everybody we just met MEET. If you go, for example, to an English academy for the first time no body  NOBODY will kiss you, nor hug you, they will say just  JUST SAY "hello".
> So, the two-cheek-kissing thing is for relatives, friends and to  FOR someone introduced by someone you know.
> 
> So you don't have to worry if you come to visit Barcelona (or any other city in Spain) as a tourist because no body NOBODY will kiss you if you ask someone wereWHERE is a good restaurant IS.
> 
> Anyway, we do not force anyone to kiss or be kissed. We can read between lines and if we see that someone is not confortable  COMFORTABLE we do not kiss him/her or we appologice  APOLOGIZE if we have already done it and also there will be no problem if someone just say*S* (that) this is not confortable COMFORTABLE for him/her.
> 
> (Was that understandable or WAS IT all a mess?)


 
Mithrellas, don't feel ofended, I am sure Emma was joking (although I am not sure I get whom this joke was directed to, either...) 

I agree with everything you said, but this does not take away a load of misunderstandings (sometimes funny and sometimes embarrassing) I had when I came here, precisely due to a cultural difference regarding kissing... 
And yes, Barcelona is a wonderful place!

EDIT: Some small corrections, although I am sure a native speaker would do it better...


----------



## mithrellas

natasha2000 said:
			
		

> Mithrellas, don't feel ofended, I am sure Emma was joking (although I am not sure I get whom this joke was directed to, either...)
> 
> I agree with everything you said, but this does not take away a load of misunderstandings (sometimes funny and sometimes embarrassing) I had when I came here, precisely due to a cultural difference regarding kissing...
> And yes, Barcelona is a wonderful place!
> 
> EDIT: Some small corrections, although I am sure a native speaker would do it better...


 
Don't worry Natasha, I don't feel ofended by Emma's post I just did not get that it was a joke but I do not know a better way to ask.  

Thank you very much for your corrections.

I love you like Barcelona.  
Bye.


----------



## vince

badgrammar said:
			
		

> Wow, those are slim choices there, my friend...  Is there absolutely no in-between?  You're either this Barbie-doll, trophy wife or this intelligent, worldly woman?  Do you see no gray areas here?  Really?
> 
> If the woman in your second paragraph one day confessed to you during a conversation about relationships "You know, I actually think it's nice when someone I'm dating opens my door" does your perception of her then revert to the description in your first paragraph?  She loses all credibility in your eyes as an intelligent, independent woman?
> 
> Talk about males repressing females! Here's a guy implying that if women don't fit into _his_ definition of what an independent woman is, he then relegates them to a sub-category of women who are submissive and inferior. (pretty and obedient wives, naive and innocent, archetypical traditional "fair lady", to be put on a pedestal, separate from the men.)
> 
> Anywho, thanks, Vince, for placing those of us who enjoy certain galant behaviors in our personal lives into this rather tidy box which you, a man, have so delightfully defined .


Umm who said that?

I was saying that if you want to come off as "lady-like" (angelic, elegant, traditionally feminine and naive), opt for the hand-kiss.

If you want to come off as professional and independent, opt for the hand-shake.

As I said, it depends on the situation. I never said that the type of greeting determines the woman, it just determines how they are perceived (or at least for the first impression). If you opt for the hand-kiss, it may take a bit of adjusting and getting used to on the part of the businesspeople at the table (most of whom are men at this day and age) to see you discussing politics and economics as opposed to cooking and fashion.


----------



## emma42

Dear Mithrellas. I am so sorry about my confusing joke. It was because Natasha lives in Barcelona and she was saying she does not like certain handshakes, so I meant that people with handshakes like that should stay away from Natasha (who is in Barcelona).


----------



## robbie_SWE

Hi! 

Thought maybe this thread needed some fresh material for the debate! 

Sweeds are maybe the most frigid people in the world and I can say this because I am a Sweed . Physical contact is a very strange and relatively unusual phenomenon here in Sweden. When I say _hi_ to a friend I just give a quick nod of the head and say "tja". If it's a close friend (only FEMALES) I give her a hug. We guys usually have a handshaking ritual (no two guys ever have the same  ) or maybe I just give him the "hug and pat on the back", but only if we're close. 

But I'm not a typical Sweed because I'm a relatively physical person. As l_a reine victoria _said, physical contact is necessary. I've also noticed a change in my friends since I've met them. By giving them physical contact, they put their guard down and start behaving more like people from the rest of Europe. 

I've once tried to kiss a girl's hand, but failed terribly. She just stared at me like I was going to jump her  (not mentioning the violent blushing that ocurred) and I was obliged to explain myself to her. I can honestly say that I reserve the "hand kissing" strictly for women of Latin origin. 

Hope this spiced things up!  

Robbie


----------



## Etcetera

robbie_SWE said:
			
		

> I've once tried to kiss a girl's hand, but failed terribly. She just stared at me like I was going to jump her  (not mentioning the violent blushing that ocurred) and I was obliged to explain myself to her. I can honestly say that I reserve the "hand kissing" strictly for women of Latin origin.


Oh, these things happen. I suppose that must be because modern girls aren't used to such a nice and polite way of greeting.


----------



## robbie_SWE

Unfortunately these things do happen. Thank you for your ecouragement Etcetera.  

By the way, what do you think guys think about this: 

A girl I know used to kiss *my* hand.  I was first shocked and I didn't know what to think. Do women kiss other men's hands or is this just strange behavior??


----------



## Etcetera

You're welcome, Robbie.

Oh, you know, that's extremely strange! 
Well, a girl or a woman *may* kiss a man's hand, but only if this man's a priest, and it's at a church service, for example. Otherwise no! It looks just odd.


----------



## TimeHP

> Do women kiss other men's hands or is this just strange behavior??


 
Mmm...are you the Pope, by chance?


----------



## robbie_SWE

Si...scherzo   non sono il Papa...


----------



## natasha2000

robbie_SWE said:
			
		

> Unfortunately these things do happen. Thank you for your ecouragement Etcetera.
> 
> By the way, what do you think guys think about this:
> 
> A girl I know used to kiss *my* hand.  I was first shocked and I didn't know what to think. Do women kiss other men's hands or is this just strange behavior??


 
It doesn't have to be necessarily as a salutation.
How did she kiss your hand? I heard that whan someone kisses the palm of your hand it means that he/she wants to tell you how much they appreciate and love you... I hav eno idea where I got this from, but this is what I've heard... Somewhere...


----------



## maxiogee

robbie_SWE said:
			
		

> Do women kiss other men's hands or is this just strange behavior??



That depends on where the man's hand is at the time!   

When my hand was last kissed it was holding a slice of pizza!


----------



## meltem

emma42 said:
			
		

> If anyone is able to produce a reasoned argument as to why a man should take off a woman's coat, pull out her chair for her, fill her wine glass, buy her flowers, as opposed to both men and women doing similar things _for eachother_, then I will happily consider changing my mind on those matters. If the only "reason" to be proffered is "tradition", well, I am sure we can all produce examples of that phenomena which might not be so welcome.


 
I think this is not wholly a human creation. It's part of the nature where males are expected to be protecting the females and taking care of them. It dates back to very early days of human nature, I guess, and we have just made up on these instincts. When a man fills my glass or holds my coat or lets me first to enter etc, it gives me the feeling that he takes care of me. It's just like the protecting behaviours of a mother to the baby. Why most of the women like it is because the major thing a woman looks for in a man is the feeling of security. 
I agree that we have to leave some of these behaviours in the modern world, but why completely leave all of these natural instictive things? Equality is not woman=man. It's about the social rights.


​


----------



## meltem

robbie_SWE said:
			
		

> A girl I know used to kiss *my* hand.  I was first shocked and I didn't know what to think. Do women kiss other men's hands or is this just strange behavior??


In Türkiye on religious holidays, we kiss our older's hands,so a woman can kiss a man's hand in this situation, and also in some traditional families (usually in villages) it's common that the wife kisses his husband's hand on speacial days, and the wife kisses her father in laws hand as well when they meet, but all of these kissings happen like this:first you kiss it touching just with your lips and then put it slighlty on your forehead with a quick movement all at once. It shows your respect.



​


----------



## badgrammar

In all of my 38 years, I have yet to see a woman who assumed a man would kiss her hand !  When this happens, it is that you  have presented your hand for a shake, and instead of shaking the man takes it and kisses it.  Then you can either a) Deal with it politely or b) Pull your hand away and make a scene.   There is no "opting" for the hand-kiss, that would be terribly theatrical...  It just comes your way.




			
				vince said:
			
		

> Umm who said that?
> 
> I was saying that if you want to come off as "lady-like" (angelic, elegant, traditionally feminine and naive), opt for the hand-kiss.
> 
> If you want to come off as professional and independent, opt for the hand-shake.
> 
> As I said, it depends on the situation. I never said that the type of greeting determines the woman, it just determines how they are perceived (or at least for the first impression). If you opt for the hand-kiss, it may take a bit of adjusting and getting used to on the part of the businesspeople at the table (most of whom are men at this day and age) to see you discussing politics and economics as opposed to cooking and fashion.


----------



## maxiogee

badgrammar said:
			
		

> There is no "opting" for the hand-kiss, that would be terribly theatrical...



Would it? I wonder.
If the lady were to wish her hand to be kissed she could raise her hand - while looking the man in the eye, in such a manner as to leave him in no doubt as to what she was intending. Most handshakes are not entered into with stiff arm muscles, and it probably wouldn't take much effort for a lady to hold his hand and direct her had towards his mouth.


----------



## Seana

meltem said:
			
		

> (...) It's part of the nature where males are expected to be protecting the females and taking care of them. It dates back to very early days of human nature, I guess, and we have just made up on these instincts. When a man fills my glass or holds my coat or lets me first to enter etc, it gives me the feeling that he takes care of me. It's just like the protecting behaviours of a mother to the baby. Why most of the women like it is because the major thing a woman looks for in a man is the feeling of security.
> (...) why completely leave all of these natural instictive things? Equality is not woman=man. It's about the social rights.


 


*meltem* it was really so wonderfully said by you. Some post ago I would like to explain it to all of them modern emancipated girls here, but my English is very poor and I would never describe it so perfectly like you just have done. Thank you for it.Dear Ladies, I think we have gone too far in our independence. 
Perhaps little Turkish tradition wouldn't be that bad in our everyday life.  



​


----------



## badgrammar

maxiogee said:
			
		

> Would it? I wonder.
> If the lady were to wish her hand to be kissed she could raise her hand - while looking the man in the eye, in such a manner as to leave him in no doubt as to what she was intending. Most handshakes are not entered into with stiff arm muscles, and it probably wouldn't take much effort for a lady to hold his hand and direct her had towards his mouth.



As I said, it would be theatrical, then!  I would love to see the expression on the face of the unsuspecting man .

I think it only happens in the movie, and perhaps with Ivana Trump...


----------



## Etcetera

I agree with you wholeheartedly, Seana!
And Meltem's so right here! I really like this:


> Equality is not woman=man. It's about the social rights.


----------



## wsitiplaju

I'm afraid I must say I feel a little dismayed by the general consensus that gentlemanly niceties to ladies are nothing more than that, that they are "natural" and "instinctive" and therefore a harmless pleasure.  I do believe, as emma42 pointed out, that they are the marks of a patriarchal system, and I believe that the idea that it's "natural" and "instinctive" for a woman to want to be protected is equally the mark of a patriarchal social system.  Society’s power is to make its norms seem the Law of Nature.  

If you are happy to accept these attentions, then well and good.  But if you are like me, and you don’t feel comfortable with them or never learned how to accept them graciously, you might have occasion to see another side of these same customs.  I should say that I usually submit to these attentions so as not to offend people who I know mean well.  Very seldom is my discomfort a problem as acquaintance develops into friendship.  But once in awhile I meet someone who is very persistent about holding doors and coats, pulling chairs, and so on.  I get increasingly uneasy, and cannot help but show signs of it.  Instead of backing off when I try to communicate this (I’m not what you’d call a forward person), he reproaches me, using all the arguments proferred in this thread.  He tells me I am wrong to feel as I do, and that I should “learn to act like a lady.”  (Verbatim quote from someone I ended up NOT going on a date with).  He insists that I walk through the door he holds, and refuses to walk through when I hold the door for him.  Vehemence is not uncommon.  That is, he tries to intimidate me into accepting his attentions, or tries to make me feel like there is something wrong with me for not wanting them.  Somehow, things stop seeming so gentlemanly and considerate at this point.  

It's this coercive tendency that makes me feel that holding doors, pouring drinks, and protecting women is not all lovely harmony between the sexes.  Patriarchy can be very charming, and lots of women have led wonderful, full lives in patriarchal societies, but not for all that does patriarchy leave off being patriarchy.  Not for me, thanks.


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## natasha2000

Personally, I don't mind if a man pours me a drink or holds a door for me, but if I had to choose, I would choose a man who does not do those things, but is a firm and steady person who will be there when I really need support. Many men can be so "nice" and play gentleman game when it comes to pleasure, but in hardships they simply - disappear...


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## emma42

Thanks, wsitiplaju for expressing so calmly and intelligently what I would say.  I have actually stood at a threshhold, opening a door for a man and the man has refused to go through!  Also, I have had ridiculous moments when the question of who will pay for a coffee has turned into almost a war!  Not my kind of men, needless to say!

I do agree with the others who say (I think) that it is "social rights" that are important and it is not a question of man equals woman (although I am , perhaps mistakenly, interpreting this as man is not the _same_ as woman), but I am afraid that I see certain behaviours and acceptances of the same as symbols of precisely the opposite of "social rights".

"It gives me the feeling that he takes care of me.  It's just like the protecting behaviours of a mother to a baby".  This is very telling.  Women are not babies, little girls who need, above men, to be taken care of and protected like babies.  Such attitudes really do weaken women's struggle for equality in society - how could they not?

I think that we need to challenge these stereotypical behaviours.  If a man really cares about a woman and wants to get to know her, then he will accept such challenges.  There is no need to be rude (unless the man forces the issue).  But what nice, decent, intelligent man would object to the idea?  Cannot we find other ways to show our care, love, politeness?  I know I can.


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## natasha2000

emma42 said:
			
		

> Cannot we find other ways to show our care, love, politeness? I know I can.


 
Exactly! As I already said, there are ways to demonstrate you care about one person, and I really think that opening a door for her is the right one.
I also say, if a man does it, I wouldn't refuse, but if I open the door for him and he refuses to pass through, then we would have a real problem...


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## zebedee

MOD NOTE:

Time once again to re-remind everyone of the topic of this thread:


			
				TimeHP said:
			
		

> Ciao.
> Il corpo, le mani, il contatto fisico sono importanti nella vostra cultura durante il saluto?
> In Italia se due persone si conoscono poco, si stringono la mano destra, mentre tra amici e persone di famiglia ci si abbraccia o ci si scambia uno o due baci.
> So che in Francia i baci possono essere quattro.
> Invece in Giappone e in Cina, se non sbaglio, difficilmente ci si tocca per salutarsi...
> 
> Hi.
> How do you greet? Is the physical contact important? Do you avoid physical contact or do you greet effusively?
> Ciao


There are 2 choices available:

1) Stick to the topic on-hand.

2) Open a new thread about Gender Equality vs Social Niceties.

You are welcome to do one or the other or both.
But please stop de-railing this thread.

Thank you.

zebedee
Culture Moderator

2nd warning

EDIT: Thanks to Seana, there is now a new thread open called Men-Women Relations Nowadays where you can carry on posting instead of de-railing this thread.


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## Outsider

TimeHP said:
			
		

> Hi.
> How do you greet? Is the physical contact important? Do you avoid physical contact or do you greet effusively?
> Ciao


In Portugal, physical contact is frequent. Women can kiss when they meet another woman, or a man (usually two kisses). A handshake is also possible, but it's very formal. It may be O.K. in a business environment, but it would come off as cold in other situations. Men usually shake hands in formal situations, and may also pat on the back in more informal situations. It used to be that young men kissed male relatives as a sign of respect (e.g., a grandfather), at least in some parts of the country, but nowadays I think only children do that. All this touchy-feeliness can be a challenge for a shy person (like myself), but it's really a sign of friendliness.


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## coconutpalm

In China, 
between friends/in daily life:
1. we don't kiss each other as a greeting. 
2. We don't hug, either. But many westernized city girls may choose to do so. And if two friends, a man and a man ,or a woman and a woman, have long time no see, they may possibly hug or tightly grasp each other's hand for a long time to show their emotion. Of course, girls squeal and jump while boys shout and jump.
3. Many boys/men pat each other on the back or the shoulder.

Little kids kiss their parents/other older people they like more frequently.
My Daddy used to ask for a kiss from his three daughters when he was drunk. 

In the business world:
1. we shake hands when we first meet each other.
2. we don't shake hands in the workplace, that is, after we have known each other.
3. we shake hands at negotiation table.


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## gato2

¿Pero en que ocasiones la gente besa las manos? ¿con la realeza? Creo que si alguien lo intentara pensaria que estaba loco y se la arrancaria corriendo para esconderla detras de la espalda.


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## egnorth

I think we should come up with a list of what is "Generally Acceptable" in certain areas of the world so that, when traveling, we know what to expect and what the locals expect from us.


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## Etcetera

egnorth said:
			
		

> I think we should come up with a list of what is "Generally Acceptable" in certain areas of the world so that, when traveling, we know what to expect and what the locals expect from us.


Not bad idea at all... I'm sure the best advice for travellers may be like that - look at the people around and do what they do. If this wouldn't violate your idea of what is normally acceptable (I mean shaking hands with a woman for Muslims, for instance).


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## emma42

That is a good idea, eggnorth.  I don't know whether you need a new thread or a special list...Perhaps ask a mod?


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## egnorth

If it was a thread I would suggest we put a locked and stickied thread in each of the country forums.  Seems like a good way to go about doing it.  I'll contact a mod.

E.G.


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## WILMSLOW

Well, in my country I think most of people are more effusive and usually are given 2 kisses between women, women-men and men-men (just happens when the men are relatives or very good friends). It doesn,t matter if you know very well to the person or not. The difference is that we give a more intensive kiss or not depending on who means the person for us. We shake hands just for bussiness or in a very formal situation. It is quite unusual in women but it is the most used in men.

P.S. sorry I am not a very good English writter. Please, correct me!


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## KaRiNe_Fr

WILMSLOW said:
			
		

> Well, in my country I think most of people are more effusive and usually are given 2 kisses between women, women-men and men-men (just happens when the men are relatives or very good friends). It doesn,t matter if you know very well to the person or not. The difference is that we give a more intensive kiss or not depending on who means the person for us. We shake hands just for bussiness or in a very formal situation. It is quite unusual in women but it is the most used in men.
> 
> P.S. sorry I am not a very good English writter. Please, correct me!


Hello there,

Wilmslow, it seems to me that we are living in the same "area". Aren't you  the woman down the street? 
We have the same practices here, in the south of France.


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## WILMSLOW

hello Karine, sorry but I´m not the woman you think I am. I am from Madrid, and I think that woman is from Cataluña.
Anyway I suposse that France and Spain have some similar matters in culture, expressions or ways to do things because of the proximity. Sometimes countries are not as much different between themselves as we people think they are.


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## Fernando

gato2 said:
			
		

> ¿Pero en que ocasiones la gente besa las manos? ¿con la realeza? Creo que si alguien lo intentara pensaria que estaba loco y se la arrancaria corriendo para esconderla detras de la espalda.



People do not kiss royalty's hands any more, at least in Spain.

In the very formal events men take Queen's hand and "carry" it till the chest while slightly bows (only with the head).


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## Hakro

WILMSLOW said:
			
		

> Well, in my country I think most of people are more effusive and usually are given 2 kisses between women, women-men and men-men (just happens when the men are relatives or very good friends). It doesn't matter if you know very well to the person or not. The difference is that we give a more intensive kiss or not depending on what the person means for us. We shake hands just for bussiness or in a very formal situation. It is quite unusual between women but it is used between most of the men.
> 
> P.S. sorry I am not a very good English writer. Please, correct me!


 Dear Wilmslow,
I tried to correct some of your text but don't trust me, I'm not native!
About kisses on cheek, I was very surprised when I got them the first time from a Spanish lady. My brother is an importer of Spanish industrial products, and during a show in Helsinki, I met the owner of the Spanish company and his wife; I had once met him in Spain but it was the first time I saw her; to my surprise, she gave me a kiss on my both cheeks, as if we were old friends!
I'm quite used to "la bise" in France, both between men and women, but I have always thought that it's only between old friends. 
Is it really different in Spain?


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## Fernando

As said in other threads in Spain the kisses are women-women and men-women, never men-men (except with children). It is used both for formal and informal introduction and for old (female) friends.

In business world it is not very common, but if the owner introduced you his wife (not a professional relation for HER) it is normal both kisses.

In most Hispanic America, only one kiss is necessary, though it is more used in business world. 

Anyway, women rule: if she intends you to kiss, offer her the cheeks. If she offers you the hand, DO NOT offer her the cheeks.


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## WILMSLOW

Hi again!!!
Fernando, why did you say that in Spain men never use 2 kisses between them just only with children? I think, here it very common to do it between brothers, father-son, cousins, good friends, grandfather-grandson, uncle-nephew,.... and so-on
Well, maybe you never do it but in family and in the families of people I know all we do it without hesitating like something completely natural.


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## Fernando

You are right. It is common inside the families. But, good friends??????


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## mithrellas

Fernando said:
			
		

> You are right. It is common inside the families. But, good friends??????


 
Yes fernando, I agree with wilmslow. I know a lot of men that use two kisses to relatives and also to good friends.

Men do not kiss men they just met (they probably will shake hands) or to all their friends (to some friends they will hug each other and to other they will just say 'hi') but that does not mean they don't do it.
It is absolutely normal.

Obviouslly not all the friends but to give you an example, my husband do it with his closest friend, the one who was his best man (padrino) at our wedding, which he considers almost like his brother.


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## WILMSLOW

hola.
 
Hakro, hope you had found an answer for your question in the last threads. 
 
Spain and Its citizens can be a completely mess in different matters but I think one of the best things it has is the warm and close relation between us. I suposses it is quite shocked to foreigners but when you grow up with it the most strange thing is not do it. I supossed this is why some of us think that people from a different country (european mostly) are cold or lack in affection.
 
 P.S. thank you to correct me. I thought I´d made more mistakes


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## Fernando

On my part, I have not witnessed such shows of affection among men on a regular way. It is true that some men do it with maybe ONE good friend. The godparents are quite a part of the family.

I am not denying it happens but it is uncommon.


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## sjofre

In Portugal, in old days, women used to always kiss each other (two kisses on the cheeks), and men use to shake hands to each other. Nowadays people are starting to avoid physical contact (that I personaly think is still to much). In the country side people still kiss and touch a lot. Women kiss everyone, and embrace everyone. It is a sign of friendship and care. In the cities, like Lisbon and mostly Cascais, and in the high circles of the portuguese society, people avoid physical contact, saying a simple good morning/afternon/night or giving a single air kiss or a hand shake. 
Between friends "we" like to embrace a lot.


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## TimeHP

> Nowadays people are starting to avoid physical contact


 
And what about particular moments? I mean when you are sharing someone's grief or happiness?

I sometimes tend to act on instinct and follow my feelings. If I have the impression that a person would like or need some physical contact, I kiss and embrace him/her, just to bring him/her some comfort. 
I think also that very old people should be kissed and embraced, so to give them some warmth.  
The physical contact is very important for children, as well. The lackness of it during the first years of life can be a serious problem. 

Ciao


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## WILMSLOW

I Am Completely Agreed With Time Hp.

I Think Apart From Cultures Or Customes, All Of Us Are Humans And It Doesn´t Matter If You Usually Do It Or Not But Acts Like Kisses, Embraces, Hold Hands..... Are Needed In Our Lifes. In My Opinion These Shows Of Affection Are More Important Than Any Beautiful Word In The World People Can Tell You. If We Are Sad, Happy, Upset, Depressed Or Whatever The Physical Contact Is The Only Thing That Exists To Share Or Cheer Up With Every One And Can Make Us Happier Or More Cheerful In Any Situation. It Has Nothing To Do With Age, But Maybe Because Old People And Children Are The Most Vulnerable Of All Of Us, We Should Pay Them More Attention.
Love, Show Love, Give Love, Receive Love, Share Love Is Freeeeee!!!! So What More Do We Want?????


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## maxiogee

Woooo! There's too many capital letters in there Wilmslow.


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## emma42

Yes, wilmslow, there are, despite your lovely sentiments.

TimHP, your comments about kissing and embracing old people is so, so touching, and I so agree with you.  Many old people miss desperately the touch of another human being.  However, this is not on-topic, because it is not about greetings, it is about more than that, I think.


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## Tensai

Chinese people do not have physical contacts when we greet. we usually just say hi, no touching. we do hug, however, usually we only hug with close friend we have not seen for a long time.


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## Poetic Device

I have what I call a mixed-breed family.  We are Spanish, Irish, Italian, Jewish and many other things, so our way of greeting varies greatly.  Most of the time we go up to the other person to hug them and give tem one kiss on the right side of the cheek.  Other times we say nothing and just nod our heads in acknowledgement.  Personally, I frefer the former.  It gives you a sense of want, and we can always use the gentle touch of a friend.


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## hohodicestu

Hi,

How do you greet a friend in your country? In the North of Mexico it is ok to greet a friend with a kiss in the cheek. (Girls with girls and girls with guys, but never guys with guys). Guys only shake hands among themselves. On the other hand, the Chinese always ask the following question: "Have you eaten?" this is a normal way to greet a friend. How about in your country or culture?

Thanks 

*Mod Note:*  This thread has been merged with another that explores the same topic.


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## french4beth

In the US, if it's a close friend or relative, a "Hi! How are you? Great to see you!" is usually accompanied by a loose hug, and a kiss on the cheek.

If it's a casual acquaintance, the same phrase could be used (less enthusiastically, of course) with no physical contact.

If it's a formal and/or business occasion (even if it's a friend), you would shake hands and say something like, "Good to see you again. How have you been?"


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## belén

In Spain:

Girls and girls = 2 kisses
Girls and boys = 2 kisses
Boys and boys = shake hands or hug 

Cheers,
Belén


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## Poetic Device

hohodicestu said:


> Hi,
> 
> On the other hand, the Chinese always ask the following question: "Have you eaten?" this is a normal way to greet a friend. How about in your country or culture?
> 
> Thanks


 
The Mixed-bred household of the Jermyns has something along these lines.  We first ask if the person wants anything to drink.  If it is a yes then while we are getting the drink we get whatever munchies we have around.  We also try to sneak dinner in there, so no matter what you always get fed.


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## sarcie

For me (but by no means for all of Ireland), it's a kiss on the cheek for my female friends, a hug and a kiss on the cheek for my male friends, a kiss on the cheek for all relations my age or older (including my 14 million cousins...), a "hi" to younger relations and acquaintances and a handshake for people I am meeting for the first time, regardless of gender. And, of course, "la bise" for all my French friends!  

However, my boyfriend, who is English, thinks it's extremely odd and overly formal when I introduce him to friends/acquaintances/relatives and they shake his hand. He tends towards the "Hi", accompanied by a shy wave of the hand. He also squirms when he accompanies me to my parent's house and my Dad shakes his hand. But his mother kisses me on the cheek!

One tradition I love and think should be spread across the world is a Dutch one (I'm sure it's not limited to Holland though), where people say their name while shaking your hand when meeting for the first time. I suspect my motivation for liking this so much stems from the fact that I am AWFUL at remembering to introduce people!


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## french4beth

sarcie said:


> One tradition I love and think should be spread across the world is a Dutch one (I'm sure it's not limited to Holland though), where people say their name while shaking your hand when meeting for the first time. I suspect my motivation for liking this so much stems from the fact that I am AWFUL at remembering to introduce people!


I feel your pain, sarcie!  I'm terrible at remembering names,   and always try to use the person's name while greeting them (as in "Very nice to meet you, sarcie").

Sounds like a good tradition!


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## stephyjh

Where I live (rural southern US) female friends generally hug, usually accompanied by an exclamation of "well, hey, honey!" Between two men, usually it's a handshake. Among younger men, that handshake is less of a traditional shake. They slap their hands together lightly, then pull their fingertips in to sort of hook the other man's fingertips, then drop it.  As a bit of a tomboy, I get that sometimes from male friends, but if they're close enough for physical contact, then I generally prefer a hug.


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## Bettie

I think Germans give very strong hand-shakes too, I like too, I don't like weak ones.

Men in Mexico, I've notice clap in the back when they give hand shakes the stronger the hitting in the back to deepest the affection.


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## pato_gaston

In Argentina, especially in Buenos Aires and other big cities, people greet each other with a kiss on the cheek (actually you just kiss the air while you touch cheeks with the other person), no matter if you are men or women, or if you've just been introduced to this person. It's like a norm even in the business world (?). You don't need to be relatives, or friends. You may even kiss your doctor or maid sometimes...

There are guys who think male/male kissing is not "macho" enough, but they are very few.

I like kissing .. and I find it quite uncomfortable to shake hands...

At school we met a Spanish teacher who said "we spaniards don't kiss men" and it was really funny, because he ended up kissing everyone haha


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## Porteño

Hi, everybody. This being the Festive Season where we indulge in a lot of greetings and displays of affection, I began to wonder about the question of physical contact on these occasions.
 
In many countries, physical contact is an essential part of the greeting process. In the UK, men usually shake hands rather formally whereas greeting a woman often involves kissing her on the lips, a custom that I personally find particularly obnoxious. In many Latin countries, the men bearhug and here in Argentina, kiss each other on the cheek  Russian soldiers are frequently seen holding hands, although no particular intimacy is to be implied therefrom. I would be interested to know what the customs of physical contact between sexes and between those of the same sex are in other countries.
 
Merry Christmas (or whatever is your custom) and a Happy New Year. Cheers!


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## ERASMO_GALENO

Hi Porteño,

In Peru, men shake hands with another men when greeting someone (if you are close friends or you haven't seen a friend in a while you hug him). A man kisses a woman on the cheek (although is getting more common that women only allow you to shake hands in a formal way, specially in formal meetings), and the same happens between women.

Little children kiss everybody on the cheek when greeting. And men, in general, only kiss another men on the cheek when it comes to be a father-to-son or grandfather-to-grandson relationship or vice versa.

Regards,

*Erasmo.*


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## Outsider

Porteño said:


> In the UK [...] greeting a woman often involves kissing her on the lips [...]


...When the greeter is another woman, I presume!

Once upon a time, I wrote about the (to me) odd custom that I saw in American films of mothers kissing their young children on the lips*, but was met with skepticism...

*I might have written "mouth". Maybe that made a difference.


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## Porteño

Outsider said:


> ...When the greeter is another woman, I presume!
> 
> Once upon a time, I wrote about the (to me) odd custom that I saw in American films of mothers kissing their young children on the lips*, but was met with skepticism...
> 
> *I might have written "mouth". Maybe that made a difference.


 
No, I'm afraid not. When greeting a man, too. That's why, unless she happens to be a ravenous beauty, I find the custom obnoxious).


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## yecru

This might be due to a social or cultural difference (because I think I have seen really posh people do it on TV dramas) but I have to totally disagree with Porteño about men kissing women on the lips being a common form of greeting in the UK. That would be completely unheard of where I live! ...where kissing on the lips is just for your partner.

I think that in the UK anything more than a matey slap-on-the-back-type hug between male friends (as an everyday greeting) would probably be seen as "gay". A kiss on the cheek definitely would, although if we saw two French or Italian men do it then it's different...


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## higo

In El Salvador, Central America (I am sure it applies to Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua and Costa Rica too.)

Men/Men shake hands. Among younger people, a different style handshake might be done. Used as a Hello and Goodbye.

Men/Men kiss in the cheek in very few situations, and only with family members, like grandfather/grandchild, father/son. It may happen uncle/nephew.

Men/Women. Kiss on the cheeks (actually kissing the air and placing the cheeks together). Used as a Hello and Goodbye.

Women/Women. Kiss on the cheeks the same way as Men/Women. Used as a Hello and Goodbye.

A hug might be accompained when the two persons have not seen each other in a long time. Or with close friends.


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## dafne.ne

Hi there!

In Catalonia, most common is two kisses. Men to men is handshake, the same for formal introductions.

Happy New Year to you all


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## Porteño

yecru said:


> This might be due to a social or cultural difference (because I think I have seen really posh people do it on TV dramas) but I have to totally disagree with Porteño about men kissing women on the lips being a common form of greeting in the UK. That would be completely unheard of where I live! ...where kissing on the lips is just for your partner.
> 
> I think that in the UK anything more than a matey slap-on-the-back-type hug between male friends (as an everyday greeting) would probably be seen as "gay". A kiss on the cheek definitely would, although if we saw two French or Italian men do it then it's different...


 
Well, hopefully the custom has gone with the Dodo, but I can assure you that it was common practice in the SE, especially among the middle class. English boys had to kiss their ubiquitous 'aunties' on the lips and, while I far from being a boy, I was faced with it as late as in 1986 - utterly revolting, not only aunts, but female cousins too!


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## Chaska Ñawi

Yes, the English side of my family were also lip-kissers right into the eighties .... but the topic of the thread is greeting _friends_, not extended family.

Thanks, everyone, for redirecting the train back onto the rails from this point on.


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## Porteño

Chaska Ñawi said:


> Yes, the English side of my family were also lip-kissers right into the eighties .... but the topic of the thread is greeting _friends_, not extended family.
> 
> Thanks, everyone, for redirecting the train back onto the rails from this point on.


 
'Aunties' are hardly extended family. In the SE they were your friends' mothers, friends of your mother and a whole multitude of other females who had no biological connection with your family whatsoever, at least as far as one knew! But that's another story!


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