# Persian: rose



## Daffodil100

Hi,

I found some online sources suggest rose is roz or gholsorkh.

Google translates it as gholosorkh, but online Hayyim doesn't adopt it. Is the word newly coined too?

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/hayyim/

Some source mentions:

ghol= flower
sorkh= rosy, sanguine

But I want to refer to a rose whatever its color is, instead of of red. Is it still okay?


And some said it is roz. Below URL is a thread about the discussion.

http://ca.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070930161807AAJhbem

I wonder what the most Iranians would say for rose in Persian.

Thank you!


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## Wolverine9

Perhaps native Persian speakers can confirm, but I believe it's (more  commonly) گل سرخ or sometimes simply گل.  But it's not ghol.


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## Faylasoof

Hi,

We did this *here*!


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## Treaty

The Persian word for rose is رز [roz] or گل رز [gol e roz]. Certain types of red rose are called گل سرخ or گل محمدی (which is very aromatic). For other colours we attach the colour after rose: رز سیاه, رز سفید, ...


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## Daffodil100

Thank you very much for your reply, everyone. I see.


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## mannoushka

This thread serves to remind us that 'a rose by any other name would smell as sweet'; I've also heard of Nastaran in reference to briar rose.


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## darush

Someone told me in Old Persian the word گل  stands for _Rose _once, and every flower has its specific name(without adding a گل at the first).  
Fore example, نرگس (Iris) زنبق (Narcissus)...Today گلِ نرگس، گلِ زنبق are more common.

Probably گلِ محمدی is the oldest variety of Rose in Iran. Its pinkish color is known as Persian Pink.

_Nastaran _is a wild type Rose variety.


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## Wolverine9

darush said:


> Someone told me in Old Persian the word گل  stands for _Rose _once, and every flower has its specific name(without adding a گل at the first).



Although not commonly used in the sense of rose in Modern Persian, that is indeed the original meaning of گل, which is from Old Iranian *_wṛda-_.


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## darush

Wolverine9 said:


> Although not commonly used in the sense of rose in Modern Persian, that is indeed the original meaning of گل, which is from Old Iranian *_wṛda-_.



Thanks for info. So,  وردة (Arabic Rose) should be a Persian word.


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## Qureshpor

Is ورد (roses in general) or وردة (a rose) found in Classical Persian literature? If not, it would seem rather odd!


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## Wolverine9

darush said:


> Thanks for info. So,  وردة (Arabic Rose) should be a Persian word.



That is unlikely, though the origin of the term is uncertain.  وردة has cognates in Akkadian, Aramaic, and Hebrew and since the rose is native to the Mediterranean region, the word may originate in Semitic or perhaps an unknown language that once existed in the region.  At first glance, the Latin _rosa _and Greek _rhodon_ "rose" appear quite different from گل and وردة, but they too may be connected to the Iranian and Semitic forms.


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## Qureshpor

Qureshpor said:


> Is ورد (roses in general) or وردة (a rose) found in Classical Persian literature? If not, it would seem rather odd!


I've checked this and it vard does occur often enough, for example

har sharii3at raa kih Haqq mansuux kard
uu giyaah burd-o-3ivaz aavurd vard 

Maulavii

bulbul-at raa nest isti3daad-i-nutq
varnah daayam baashade dar vird vard

Anvarii


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## Faylasoof

Just to add to the discussion, many Semitic words ended up in Pahlavi (or Middle) Persian since Aramaic was one of the official languages used and the influence of Aramaic is quite apparent. I guess Ancient Persian also borrowed word from other languages just as it and Pahlavi also lent words to other languages. In Pahlavi Persian:
rose = _gul _
flower = _gul_, _sprahm_ (but also _shkuufag_).


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## Daffodil100

Treaty said:


> The Persian word for rose is رز [roz] or گل رز [gol e roz]. Certain types of red rose are called گل سرخ or گل محمدی (which is very aromatic). For other colours we attach the colour after rose: رز سیاه, رز سفید, ...



Hi, 

Do you have any idea why rose is translated as  گل سرخ in my Farsi-English Dictionary ? The author only gives this word.

And could you confirm  گل سرخ doesn't mean red rose but a type of rose?

گل: Flower
سرخ: Sanguine | Rosy

Thank you!


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## Faylasoof

Daffodil100 said:


> Originally Posted by *Treaty*
> The Persian word for rose is رز [roz] or گل رز  [gol e roz]. Certain  types of red rose are called گل سرخ or گل محمدی  (which is very  aromatic). For other colours we attach the colour after  rose: رز سیاه,  رز سفید, ...
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Do you have any idea why rose is translated as  گل سرخ in my Farsi-English Dictionary ? The author only gives this word.
> 
> And could you confirm  گل سرخ doesn't mean red rose but a type of rose?
> 
> گل: Flower
> سرخ: Sanguine | Rosy
> 
> Thank you!
Click to expand...

 Because that is what a rose is: گل سرخ  ! You can see that it was used in Middle Persian or Pahlavi as well:



Faylasoof said:


> Just to add to the discussion, many Semitic words ended up in Pahlavi (or Middle) Persian since Aramaic was one of the official languages used and the influence of Aramaic is quite apparent. I guess Ancient Persian also borrowed word from other languages just as it and Pahlavi also lent words to other languages. In Pahlavi Persian:
> *rose = gul  *<--- also given as* [گول] guul ! *(_Edited_ _note_)
> flower = _gul_, _sprahm_ (but also _shkuufag_).


*رز [roz]* _is a French borrowing! _


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## Treaty

Daffodil100 said:


> Hi,
> 
> Do you have any idea why rose is translated as  گل سرخ in my Farsi-English Dictionary ? The author only gives this word.
> 
> And could you confirm  گل سرخ doesn't mean red rose but a type of rose?
> 
> گل: Flower
> سرخ: Sanguine | Rosy
> 
> Thank you!



"rose" as a colour is somehow pinkish red. That's why rose is connected to گل سرخ
گل سرخ is always reddish. It means "red rose". You cannot have a yellow گل سرخ.


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## Wolverine9

Treaty said:


> "rose" as a colour is somehow pinkish red. That's why rose is connected to گل سرخ
> گل سرخ is always reddish. It means "red rose". You cannot have a yellow گل سرخ.



I suppose this would be true for all colors, but in the case of yellow rose for instance, would _roz-e zard_ be more common than _gol-e zard_? Do you know if _roz _is also used for rose in Dari or only _gul_?


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## Treaty

Wolverine9 said:


> I suppose this would be true for all colors, but in the case of yellow rose for instance, would _roz-e zard_ be more common than _gol-e zard_? Do you know if _roz _is also used for rose in Dari or only _gul_?



In modern Persian, _Gol-e zard_ means "yellow flower". Among colours, it is only _gol-e sorx_ that has two distinct and widespread meanings (red flower / red rose). For other colours, the construction _gol-e X_ may refer to some certain types of flower or rose or just a so-coloured generic flower. 
For example, based on Dehkhoda,_ gol-e zard_  can refer to yellow matthiola, yellow rosa cannina, yellow rose and  among them. However, if you ask an ordinary Persian, you're told it just  means "yellow flower". 

Personally, I don't think the Dari usage much differs from Persian though we should wait for a Dari speaker to clarify it.


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## Daffodil100

Thank you very much


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## Faylasoof

Wolverine9 said:


> I suppose this would be true for all colors, but in the case of yellow rose for instance, would _roz-e zard_ be more common than _gol-e zard_? Do you know if _roz _is also used for rose in Dari or only _gul_?


 Persian yellow rose (Rosa foetida) = نسترن زرد / گل زرد / رز زرد ایرانی

Although quite understandably Persian and Dari have a huge overlap but they don’t always use the same names for the same things! 

In Dari, a rose = _gulaab_ – same as in Urdu!


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## Treaty

Faylasoof said:


> In Dari, a rose = _gulaab_ – same as in Urdu!



It is interesting. In Persian, _gol-e golaab_ is seldom used for red rose. _Golaab_ is used for rosewater. I'm curious to know what rosewater is in Dari?


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## Faylasoof

Treaty said:


> Originally Posted by *Faylasoof*
> 
> In Dari, a rose = _gulaab_ – same as in Urdu!
> 
> 
> 
> It is interesting. In Persian, _gol-e golaab_ is seldom used for red rose. _Golaab_ is used for rosewater. I'm curious to know what rosewater is in Dari?
Click to expand...

 The Dari cookbook I have uses the term *3araq-e-gulaab عرق گلاب *for rose water throughout. This is also one of the terms we use in Urdu.


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## Qureshpor

Treaty said:


> It is interesting. In Persian, _gol-e golaab_ is seldom used for red rose. _Golaab_ is used for rosewater. I'm curious to know what rosewater is in Dari?


This is the example I quoted in another thread.
زنی بود گریه منظر و بینهایت زشت روی- اورا برای کوری عقد بستند و بمناکحش در آوردند-روزی زن بشوهرش گفت -افسوس که این صورت من چون آفتاب و رخسارۂ من چون گل گلاب از چشم تو پوشیده است


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## Wolverine9

Faylasoof said:


> In Dari, a rose = _gulaab_ – same as in Urdu!



It seems Platts, Shakespear, and Steingass all overlooked Dari when defining _gulaab_.  Unless Dari has been influenced by Urdu in recent times to use _gulaab_ for rose.


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## Qureshpor

A couple of examples of usage of "gulaab" for "rose", by Hafiz and Maulavi, the latter from Balkh (in Afghanistan)

شکستہ کسمہ و بربرگ گل گلاب زدہ
ز جرعہ بر رخ حور و پری گلاب زدہ
حافظ

ہمہ چون دانۂ انگور و دلم چون چرش است
ہمہ چون برگِ گلاب و دلِِ من چون دکان
مولوی


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## marrish

Wolverine9 said:


> It seems Platts, Shakespear, and Steingass all overlooked Dari when defining _gulaab_.  Unless Dari has been influenced by Urdu in recent times to use _gulaab_ for rose.


I don't know how recent you are supposing it to be but in a small dictionary here: http://www.eric.ed.gov/PDFS/ED192577.pdf you will find gulaab/golaab on p. 164. It was compiled in 1979.


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## Treaty

Faylasoof said:


> The Dari cookbook I have uses the term *3araq-e-gulaab عرق گلاب *for rose water throughout. This is also one of the terms we use in Urdu.





Qureshpor said:


> A couple of examples of usage of "gulaab" for "rose", by Hafiz and Maulavi, the latter from Balkh (in Afghanistan)
> 
> شکستہ کسمہ و بربرگ گل گلاب زدہ
> ز جرعہ بر رخ حور و پری گلاب زدہ
> حافظ
> 
> ہمہ چون دانۂ انگور و دلم چون چرش است
> ہمہ چون برگِ گلاب و دلِِ من چون دکان
> مولوی



_Gol-e golaab_ does not literally mean "rose flower" but "rosewater flower" or "the flower which produces rosewater". It is like to say "apple tree" درخت سیب to indicate "the tree which produces apple". _Araq-e golaab_ can be compared to _araq-e sekangabin_ while _sekangabin _is not a plant but mixture of vinegar and sugar. 

In Maulavii's poem, it doesn't refer to "rose". _Golaab _(_Gol-e aab_) also means water lily (lotus). Considering that couplet, lotus leaf is open and clear (contrasting to enclosed dark shop دکان). 

Anyway, the entry in that dictionary was interesting. It is likely that in Dari, _gol-e golaab_ is shortened to _golaab _as the name of the flower.


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## Qureshpor

Treaty said:


> _Gol-e golaab_ does not literally mean "rose flower" but "rosewater flower" or "the flower which produces rosewater". It is like to say "apple tree" درخت سیب to indicate "the tree which produces apple". _Araq-e golaab_ can be compared to _araq-e sekangabin_ while _sekangabin _is not a plant but mixture of vinegar and sugar.
> 
> In Maulavii's poem, it doesn't refer to "rose". _Golaab _(_Gol-e aab_) also means water lily (lotus). Considering that couplet, lotus leaf is open and clear (contrasting to enclosed dark shop دکان).
> 
> Anyway, the entry in that dictionary was interesting. It is likely that in Dari, _gol-e golaab_ is shortened to _golaab _as the name of the flower.


barg-i-gulaab, to my mind, means "rose-petal/s" and not petal/s of rose-water!

As an aside, I spoke with an Afghani friend of mine yeasterday and he told me that rose in his language (Dari) was gul-i-gulaab.


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## Treaty

Yes, برگ گلاب also means petals of rose but I still don't get a contrast between it and دکان. That's why I found the "lotus" meaning more relevant.


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## Daffodil100

I happened to read an article in Chinese about the etymology of rose yesterday.

The author mentioned linguists believe rose in Indo-European languages is derived from vardha, which is found in_ Avestan_. The variations were vard or vart in Pahlavi. The word can still be found in some modern Persian words. For examples, in Iran there’s a place named suhrvard, which means red rose or red flower. The surname of Mr Verdinejad, former Iranian Ambassador to China, is relevant to rose. Nejad means family, clan; and vardi or Verdi means rose planter.

Here is the sum-up:

In Persian: vardha—〉vard—〉val—〉gol
　　
In English: vardha—〉wrodhon—〉rodhon—〉rodh—〉rose


I didn't translate it verbatim.


Reference: _Etymology of Rose _from _MOTS Sohu Blog _(in Chinese)


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## Wolverine9

The article you read in the blog is not entirely accurate.  Read the first paragraph of the Iranica article on _gol _here.


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## Daffodil100

> The Iranian words are commonly assumed to be related to Gk. _rhodon_ “rose” and Lat. _rosa_ and to be of non-Indo-European origin (see, e.g., Watkins, s.v. _wrod_



I don't understand why it is not accurate. It seems to me it vindicates the article. Rose is from rodhon, and rodhon for wrodhon, if we track it back?


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## Wolverine9

Daffodil100 said:


> I don't really understand why it is not accurate. It seems to me it vindicates the article. Rhodon is for rose, and isn't it for wrodhon?



Maybe I misunderstood you, but it seems the author you mentioned stated that the Indo-European (i.e. Greek and Latin) words are derived from the Avestan _vardha_.  As Iranica shows, the Greek and Latin words are related to the Iranian ones, though not necessarily derived from the Avestan _varəδa- _(of uncertain meaning).  They could be independent borrowings from the same (probably Semitic) source.


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## Daffodil100

Wolverine9 said:


> Maybe I misunderstood you, but it seems the author you mentioned stated that the Indo-European (i.e. Greek and Latin) words are derived from the Avestan _vardha_.  As Iranica shows, the Greek and Latin words are related to the Iranian ones, though not necessarily derived from the Avestan _varəδa- _(of uncertain meaning).  They could be independent borrowings from the same (probably Semitic) source.




Yes, I mean that. Is rose in Semitic older than Avestan?


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## Daffodil100

I have more to translate about the word for you and other folks. I will have to do it later. Got to go.


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## Wolverine9

Daffodil100 said:


> Yes, I mean that. Is rose in Semitic older than Avestan?



Most likely, yes. Rose is attested in Akkadian.


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## Treaty

Daffodil100 said:


> The author mentioned linguists believe rose in Indo-European languages is derived from vardha, which is found in_ Avestan_. The variations were vard or vart in Pahlavi. The word can still be found in some modern Persian words. For examples, in Iran there’s a place named suhrvard, which means red rose or red flower. The surname of Mr Verdinejad, former Iranian Ambassador to China, is relevant to rose. Nejad means family, clan; and vardi or Verdi means rose planter.



Please consider that ورد or وردی has three other meanings, at least:
- _vard_ = a place making suffix (~ _gard_). I suspect Suhravard is of this type.
- _verd _= magical/religious spell 
- _verdi _or _berdi _= a Turkish suffix meaning "given" or "gift", found in some names (though, it may have an ultimate Perso-Soghdian root). 

Actually, _vard _with the meaning of rose is not usually used in Persian except in literary texts. In addition, that _vard_ is Arabic.


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## Qureshpor

From Wikipedia article..

*.**نام نوعی گل رز است که از آن گلابمی‌گیرند**: *(*Rosa damascena) **گل محمدی یا گل گلاب (نام علمی


*


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