# Icelandic: frá, af, úr



## LurkingFox

I have more questions regarding the use of prepositions! (yay! prepositions!)

It is my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) that:
Í (þf eða þgf) > ÙR (þgf)
Á (þf eða þgf) > AF (þgf)

*Question 1: *
If I wanted to say "Is this a loanword from English?"
Would this be correct: "Er það lánorð af ensku?"

*Question 2: *
Does it follow that TIL (ef) --> FRÁ (þgf)?


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## Silver_Biscuit

1. No. Loanword = _tökuorð_, and you would say _úr ensku_, not _af ensku_. "Er þetta tökuorð úr ensku?" (You need _þetta_ as a translation for 'this', not _það_)

2. I'm not sure that it 'follows' exactly, but it is certainly true.


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## LurkingFox

Ok! Thanks a lot


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## Tjahzi

Is this the only/preferred construction, or does _Er þetta enskt tökuor__ð?_ work as well?


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## Silver_Biscuit

I don't think that "enskt tökuorð" is ungrammatical, but it's not common usage.


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## Segorian

Silver_Biscuit said:


> I don't think that "enskt tökuorð" is ungrammatical, but it's not common usage.



I beg to differ. While the construction with _úr_ is more frequently used, _enskt tökuorð_, _danskt tökuorð_ etc. is also common usage. From the column ‘Íslenskt mál’ in Morgunblaðið, 9 April 1998, p. 47: _*Púðursykur* er enn danskt tökuorð (*puddersukker*), en *pudder* (e. *powder*) er af latínu *pulvis*= duft, sbr. tökuorðið *púlver*._


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## Silver_Biscuit

I meant it was not the construction commonly used. I know that it's not 'weird' or anything - I found lots of results googling it as well. Just overwhelmingly more for the_ úr [tungumáli]_ construction.


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## Segorian

Silver_Biscuit said:


> I meant it was not the construction commonly used. I know that it's not 'weird' or anything - I found lots of results googling it as well. Just overwhelmingly more for the_ úr [tungumáli]_ construction.



That’s the problem: Google is not reliable enough for comparisons like this. The way their search engine is set up nowadays, the number of results shown depends on the search settings. Also, the list of results sometimes contains a lot of ‘repeats’. In such cases, simply clicking on to the second page of results can lower the result count dramatically. Finally, the texts available to Google may not in all cases be representative of how words are most commonly used.

For Icelandic, it is possible to argue that more reliable results can be obtained by searching such databases as Íslenskt textasafn or Tímarit.is. Searches on these websites for _tökuorð úr [dönsku, ensku, etc.]_ and _[danskt, enskt, etc.] tökuorð_ seem to indicate that the former construction is perhaps twice as common as the other one. (On Tímarit.is it is necessary to search separately for each inflection form.)


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## Alxmrphi

> For Icelandic, it is possible to argue that more reliable results can be obtained by searching such databases as Íslenskt textasafn or Tímarit.is. Searches on these websites for_tökuorð úr [dönsku, ensku, etc.] and [danskt, enskt, etc.] tökuorð seem to indicate that the former construction is perhaps twice as common as the other one. (On Tímarit.is it is necessary to search separately for each inflection form.)_


I'd say the best option would be _Mörkuð íslensk málheild _for a good comparison like this. It's not perfect but it allows you to do a quick check and get a good result that's pretty detailed. For example, I set up a comparison search between:

tökuorð [allar orðmyndir] + úr + [þágufall]
[sterkt lýsingarorð] + tökuorð [allar orðmyndir]

Then clicking "Tiðni" you can do a frequency comparison of results. Although the majority of results are only 1/2 examples (because it's a pretty specific search) it's obviously useful since in this case it does show a pretty strong candidate for the most popular construction out of 25,000,000 word corpus.



> *tilvik**leitarorð*58*tökuorð úr dönsku*9*dönsk tökuorð*6*tökuorð úr latínu*6*gömul tökuorð*5*gamalt tökuorð*4*tökuorð úr miðlágþýsku*4*tökuorð úr ensku*3*eiginleg tökuorð*3*ung tökuorð*3*ensk tökuorð*3*líklegast tökuorð*2*langflest tökuorð*2*tökuorð úr lágþýsku*2*mörg tökuorð*2*aðlöguð tökuorð*2*miðlágþýsk tökuorð*2*erlendra tökuorða*2*tökuorð úr gamalli*2*tökuorð úr fornensku*2*erlent tökuorð*1*tökuorð úr miðaldalatínu*1*tökuorða úr dönsku*1*fornt tökuorð*[...]


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## Segorian

The problem with _Mörkuð íslensk málheild_ as a database is that it is too small. With only 25 million words—as compared to 65 million in Íslenskt textasafn (which is still too small) and several billion in Tímarit.is (the exact number is not known, I believe)—the risk of a bias caused by one author’s preferences is very large. As it turns out, 48 out of the 59 examples for ‘tökuorð(a) úr dönsku’ are by one and the same author, Guðrún Kvaran! As an authority on the Icelandic language, she is not to be dismissed, but the way she writes can hardly be taken as representative of Icelandic speakers in general. Further, although the numbers are small, the fact that we get four instances of ‘tökuorð úr ensku’ against three for ‘ensk tökuorð’ is perhaps an indication that there is a bias.


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