# Past tense 3rd person singular (m/f) of lamed-heh verb



## htims

Dear group,
What is the transliteration of "he drank" and "she drank" - as far as I can see there is a slight difference in pronunciation?
I think hu shata (He drank) and hee shta (she drank).
Thanks


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## bayicra

htims said:


> Dear group,
> What is the transliteration of "he drank" and "she drank" - as far as I can see there is a slight difference in pronunciation?
> I think hu shata (He drank) and hee shta (she drank).
> Thanks



As you said - He drank - Hu shata

                   She drank - Hee shateta


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## htims

Thanks. The book I'm using  - Modern Hebrew by Michal Rose and Ezri Uval - says that the e is not pronounced in modern Hebrew hence why I thought the pronunciations would be similar..


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## bayicra

Normally in this case you do pronounce the e. The e is not pronounced in some cases, this one is kinda difficult to pronounce shat´ta...


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## bayicra

Not exactly origumi, there are five rules to change the chewa from nach to naa. One of them is that if there are two similar letters, and the first has a chewa so the chewa is naa (i.e. the known word halelu-ya, you dont say hal´luya). Hope this helps.


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## origumi

Sorry, I deleted my comment above and wasn't aware that a reply is about to arrive.

In my comment I made an assumption that the schwa in שתתה is מרחף, which is dubious because the preceding vowel is kamats.


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## bayicra

Thats correct, is preceded by a kamatz, but also take in consideration what I mention about two similar letters rule.


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## origumi

When the schwa is נע it is pronounced (in modern Hebrew) as a vowel when the two consecutive consonants are difficult to pronounce otherwise, even if they are not identical or even very similar - see for exampe מלוכה or מנוחה.

Regarding the 5 rules - I guess that you're talking about the work of 16th century grammatician Rabbi Eliyahu Bakhur.


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## bayicra

Sure, I live in Israel so I know that. I was talking from the "correct pronunciation" point of view. Theoretically the chewa naa is supposed to be always pronounced. Sadly in Israel people pronounce however they want, normally using chewa nach for every single thing. 

I don´t know the origin from the five rules, but I learned them in order to read in the Sidur and Tanach, and they are foolproof (there is only a few exceptions).

Happy to learn something today!!!!!


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## origumi

Good arguments in this article http://www.tapuz.co.il/tapuzforum/main/Viewmsg.asp?forum=1072&msgid=77251600, based on טעמי המקרא by Rabbi Mordekhai Broier, prove that Bakhur's rule #5 (of schwa נע between two identical consonants) is sometimes incorrect. For example:
 
"השווא של הדומות הוא נח, אם הוא בין שתי תנועות בלתי מוטעמות" (שם)
במילה "בְּרִבְבוֹתָיו" השווא הוא בין שתי תנועות בלתי מוטעמות, ולכן הוא שווא נח.
במילה "חַלְלֵי" התנועה שאחרי השווא מוטעמת, ולכן השווא הוא נע.

This is off-topic though because the schwa of shateta שתתה is apparently נע.


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## bayicra

origumi said:


> Good arguments in this article http://www.tapuz.co.il/tapuzforum/main/Viewmsg.asp?forum=1072&msgid=77251600, based on טעמי המקרא by Rabbi Mordekhai Broier, prove that Bakhur's rule #5 (of schwa נע between two identical consonants) is sometimes incorrect. For example:
> 
> "השווא של הדומות הוא נח, אם הוא בין שתי תנועות בלתי מוטעמות" (שם)
> במילה "בְּרִבְבוֹתָיו" השווא הוא בין שתי תנועות בלתי מוטעמות, ולכן הוא שווא נח.
> במילה "חַלְלֵי" התנועה שאחרי השווא מוטעמת, ולכן השווא הוא נע.



Thanks, good to know "... halomed mikol adam". 



> This is off-topic though because the dagesh did you mean shewa cuz shateta doesnt have a dagesh as far as I know of shateta שתתה is apparently נע.  *Maskim*


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## Flaminius

So, maybe you could tell us the conclusion in plainer words?

Is it that [rlt]שתתה[/rtl] ("She drank") is pronounced as _shateta_ by modern Israelis but is supposed to be _shatta_ according the the standard?  Or is it the other way round?


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## bayicra

Supposed to be Shateta and *it is* pronounced Shateta in modern hebrew, as  the chewa is  preceeded with a kamatz as origumi said.


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## Flaminius

¡Gracias, *bayicra*!


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## hadronic

Two rules come into the play.
In BH, this shva is always naa : kateva, kashera, shateta....
(1) In MH, in a first time, this shva became nakh : katva, kashra, shatta...
(2) Then in a second time, the shva between two identical or close consonnants became naa : shateta. This shva naa reapparead independently from the fact it had primarily been naa. This fact can be asserted through forms like "lamed*e*ta" (you learnt) : the only justification of the appearance of a shva naa relies on pure phonetico-tactical grounds, rather than historical.


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