# Hindi/Urdu/Punjabi: nikalnā



## panjabigator

Greetings all,

Pronunciation question: when I use the verb <nikalnā> (िनकलना نكلنا), I tend to place the stress on the first part of the word, something that I must have learned from my family.  I have noticed that speakers also do the opposite.  Do you have any comments on this?  I'm not asking if one pronunciation is right or wrong, but if there is any pronunciation that maps out to particular regions.  

Best wishes,
PG


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## Cilquiestsuens

Hmmm... I've never studied this question, but I have the feeling that the stress doesn't necessarily remain on the same syllable. It must depend on the number of syllables in the group of the verb. I have the impression it is more often on the second syllable :

Correct me if I am wrong. I have taken here some (simple) sample sentences and try to figure out where the stress was falling each time in the group of the verb. Do you agree with this? Where would you put the stress yourself?

*woh is waqt us building se nikal rahaa hai.*

*nahi, yeh koii aur hai, woh to abhii tak nahii.n niklaa.*

*Yaa shaayad nikal chukaa ho ?*

*mai.N ne to usko nikalte nahii.N dekhaa.*

*Aapko nahii.N pataa, kitne baje roz nikaltaa hai ?*

*lagtaa hai aaj us ne nikalna hi nahii.N hai.*

*Tuu faTaafaT nikal yahaa.N se*


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## panjabigator

Reading these sentences, I'm even more confused.  Perhaps stress can be argued both ways here - let's await some more input.


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## cweeetguy2000

I think its a very Punjabi thing to do. 

By the way do you use character map for typing devanagari if yes, for typing 'निकलना' and not 'िनकलना' try pressing 'न' first then 'ि'.


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## Faylasoof

We’d say it like this:

*woh is waqt us building se nikal rahaa hai.*
*woh is waqt us 3imaarat se nikal rahaa hai*

*Aapko nahii.N pataa, kitne baje roz nikaltaa hai ?*
*Aapko nahii.N pataa, kitne baje roz nikaltaa hai ?*

*lagtaa hai aaj us ne nikalna hi nahii.N hai. **<--** blasphamy in Urdu!! *
*lagtaa hai aaj us ko nikalna hi nahii.N hai.*

*Tuu faTaafaT nikal yahaa.N se*
*tuu faTaafaT nikal yahaa.N se*


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## panjabigator

Reexamining this post again.  Anyone have a contribution from the Punjabi side?  I'd say that in Punjabi, the stress (in this verb) falls on the first syllable, but perhaps I can only speak for my dialect.


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## Qureshpor

panjabigator said:


> Reexamining this post again.  Anyone have a contribution from the Punjabi side?  I'd say that in Punjabi, the stress (in this verb) falls on the first syllable, but perhaps I can only speak for my dialect.



*I have never thought that I pronounce this or other similar pattern verbs (pighalnaa, for example) any differently from the rest of the Urdu speaking world. I would have to listen to you to see what you mean exactly because I find it difficult to follow the tone depicted in a written format.

As for the "blasphemous" sentence... kam az kam ek bahut baRe "maulavii" Sahib ne aise isti'maal ko "Halaal" kii fahrist meN shaamil kar diyaa hai!!*


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## BP.

Azizam QP, in 2010 I too would have called out the use of _nee _in anything but the past tense as blatantly sacrilegious. But my Laahaurii friends insist and won't budge from their position that it is completely Halaal in their school of fiqh! What can I do, communities are inclusive, and we've been inclusive for example of the Biharis with their back to front genders. But I still let people know that in my orthodox, and arguably more original, school, a _nee _is totally inappropriate here.


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## Qureshpor

BelligerentPacifist said:


> Azizam QP, in 2010 I too would have called out the use of _nee _in anything but the past tense as blatantly sacrilegious. But my Laahaurii friends insist and won't budge from their position that it is completely Halaal in their school of fiqh! What can I do, communities are inclusive, and we've been inclusive for example of the Biharis with their back to front genders. But I still let people know that in my orthodox, and arguably more original, school, a _nee _is totally inappropriate here.



*BP Sahib, aadaab.

1) The fact of the matter is that the "ne" construction is indeed wrong. You need not bother trying to convince anyone. You might remember that in a relatively recent thread I have made this same point and given my backing (not that anyone's backing is necessary) for the "ko" construction.

2) Whether "you" in your "more original" school are inclusive or not is neither here nor there. No one has complete control over natural speech of communities and if a language develops in a certain direction, it is a an inevitable evolutionary process. You and I might not like it but we will have to live with it.

3) The bit about a "Maulavii Sahib" that I mentioned in my previous post was done in a light hearted way, linked to the word "blasphemy". In fact he belongs to your "school and fiqh" and is no other than C.M. Naim hailing from Barabanki. Here is what he has had to say about this issue.

"Since the fifties, influenced by standard usage in Punjabi, many Pakistani Urdu writers and speakers commonly use the postposition "ne" in this indirect construction, instead of original "ko" which is still the standard in India. Both usages are now equally correct in Urdu." 

Naim, C.M. Introductory Urdu (Volume One) [Chicago]: South Asia Language & Area Center, University of Chicago 1999

4) I am not trying to defend the "ne" form but it has, whether by accident or design, brought in a new dimension to the language.

"In the everyday Urdu of Pakistan, the logical subject of the sentence may be followed either by "ko" or by "ne": maiN ne Dinar par jaanaa thaa, " I was supposed to go (out) to dinner." In dialects which have this option, the case of  "ko" tends to be restricted to external circumstances which are not under the speaker's control, whereas "ne" refers to circumstances 
permitting internal choice, or neutral circumstances. This usage is not correct in the standard Urdu of Delhi." 

Urdu An Essential Grammar by Ruth Laila Schmidt (Routledge 1999)*


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## BP.

4 adds an interesting twist and I'm unfamiliar with examples of it.

We see another aspect. The use of _nee _does not at present allow _idghaam _into the object pronoun in the manner that _us koo_ condenses into _usee_.

Returning to our 3aSbiiyat, this nee issue, along with object-verb-mismatch (e.g. "aap kahaa.n jaa2oo gee?") and the qaaf are the first things that to this day really unsettle my ear. I guess I'm jealous that people get to do at will what I even as a child would only attract the immediate feeling of disapproval doing! We need to have equal right to twist a language.


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## Qureshpor

BelligerentPacifist said:


> We see another aspect. The use of _nee _does not at present allow _idghaam _into the object pronoun in the manner that _us koo_ condenses into _usee_.
> 
> *Please elaborate. I don't quite follow.*
> 
> Returning to our 3aSbiiyat, this nee issue, along with object-verb-mismatch (e.g. "aap kahaa.n jaa2oo gee?") and the qaaf are the first things that to this day really unsettle my ear. I guess I'm jealous that people get to do at will what I even as a child would only attract the immediate feeling of disapproval doing! We need to have equal right to twist a language.



* I would prefer to use the word "passion" (or its Urdu equivalent) for our views on the correct use of Urdu. Please do not be disheartened. As long as there are sufficient number of Urdu lovers who care about grammatically correct usage of Urdu, it will continue to survive and prosper. I detest the "tum" verbal ending used with "aap" too.*


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## Qureshpor

BelligerentPacifist said:


> 4 adds an interesting twist and I'm unfamiliar with examples of it.
> 
> We see another aspect. The use of _nee _does not at present allow _idghaam _into the object pronoun in the manner that _us koo_ condenses into _usee_.
> 
> Returning to our 3aSbiiyat, this nee issue, along with object-verb-mismatch (e.g. "aap kahaa.n jaa2oo gee?") and the qaaf are the first things that to this day really unsettle my ear. I guess I'm jealous that people get to do at will what I even as a child would only attract the immediate feeling of disapproval doing! We need to have equal right to twist a language.



*I don't quite follow your first paragraph. Please elaborate.*

*I would prefer to use the word "passion" (or its Urdu equivalent) for our views on the correct use of Urdu. Please do not be disheartened. As long as there are sufficient number of Urdu lovers who care about grammatically correct usage of Urdu, it will continue to survive and prosper. I detest the "tum" verbal ending used with "aap" too*


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## Faylasoof

I’m not here to argue for or against adding new dimensions to a language but in my “holy book” of _lakhanvi urdu_ the use of ‘ne’, as in


Faylasoof said:


> ....
> 
> *lagtaa hai aaj us ne nikalna hi nahii.N hai. **<--** blasphamy in Urdu!! *
> *lagtaa hai aaj us ko nikalna hi nahii.N hai.*
> 
> *....*


is still a blasphemy regardless of ‘_mullaa_’ Naim SaHeb’s fatwa. I have much to disagree with ‘mullah’ SaHeb (!) but I fully understand what has been said above about this and know that in Pakistan people ( I guess mostly from the Punjab) have a penchant for this usage - something I noticed when I was in Lahore, Islamabad and Rawalpindi - but all the same I wince whenever I hear it.


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> I’m not here to argue for or against adding new dimensions to a language but in my “holy book” of _lakhanvi urdu_ the use of ‘ne’, as in
> 
> is still a blasphemy regardless of ‘_mullaa_’ Naim SaHeb’s fatwa. I have much to disagree with ‘mullah’ SaHeb (!) but I fully understand what has been said above about this and know that in Pakistan people ( I guess mostly from the Punjab) have a penchant for this usage - something I noticed when I was in Lahore, Islamabad and Rawalpindi - but all the same I wince whenever I hear it.



*Well, one can disagree with any "mullah", but the fact remains that he is considered very highly in literary circles. And, let me add that I too wince not only at the "ne" construction but also any grammatical errors committed by Urdu speakers of whatever background. One of my worst pet-hates is the use of "-o" verb ending with the pronoun "aap". Another one is "mere ko/tere ko etc".

Your Lakhnavii "holy book" that you mention.. are you talking about the 2011 edition or is it one that has been out of print for ages and whose relics can only be found in the minds of survivors of that bygone era?*


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> *
> Well, one can disagree with any "mullah", but the fact remains that he is considered very highly in literary circles. And, let me add that I too wince not only at the "ne" construction but also any grammatical errors committed by Urdu speakers of whatever background. One of my worst pet-hates is the use of "-o" verb ending with the pronoun "aap". Another one is "mere ko/tere ko etc".
> *


I know of mulla Na3iim SaHeb and have a difference of opinion in this usage of _ne_ we are discussing here - and some differences in other usages too! BTW, these points you mention also give me trouble.



QURESHPOR said:


> * Your Lakhnavii "holy book" that you mention.. are you talking about the 2011 edition or is it one that has been out of print for ages and whose relics can only be found in the minds of survivors of that bygone era?*


 HaDhrat-e-waalaa, this  _lakhanvi urdu “ holy book_”  I refer to is by its very definition eternal! 

 We (family and dedicated friends in both India and Pakistan) are flying the flag of, and shall continue to fly the flag of, standard _lakhnavi _and _dehlavi urdu_ regardless. Of course we welcome immensely some changes, e.g. the expanding vocabulary, including neo-logisms, but do take exception to some things, in particular grammatically incorrect forms. Still, we don’t believe in forcing our views on others. Instead we do like expressing our point view rather frankly!Hence my comment about _*lagtaa hai aaj us ne nikalna hi nahii.N hai*_  above.


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## panjabigator

panjabigator said:


> Greetings all,
> 
> Pronunciation question: when I use the verb <nikalnā> (िनकलना نكلنا), I tend to place the stress on the first part of the word, something that I must have learned from my family.  I have noticed that speakers also do the opposite.  Do you have any comments on this?  I'm not asking if one pronunciation is right or wrong, but if there is any pronunciation that maps out to particular regions.
> 
> Best wishes,
> PG



*Just a nudge to everyone to remember the subject at hand here. Perhaps we can continue tangential conversations a new thread?

Thanks
Moderator*


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> I’m not here to argue for or against adding new dimensions to a language but in my “holy book” of _lakhanvi urdu_ the use of ‘ne’, as in
> 
> is still a blasphemy regardless of ‘_mullaa_’ Naim SaHeb’s fatwa. I have much to disagree with ‘mullah’ SaHeb (!) but I fully understand what has been said above about this and know that in Pakistan people ( I guess mostly from the Punjab) have a penchant for this usage - something I noticed when I was in Lahore, Islamabad and Rawalpindi - but all the same I wince whenever I hear it.



Whilst listening very carefully to a Lakhnavii (Iftikhar Arif, Youtube Jashn-e-Iftikhar Arif III 1:05:02), I noticed the following sentence being uttered.

jis ko kisii kaa Khayaal nahiiN aa rahaa apne 'ilaavah to us ne kyaa karnaa hai?

Is this sentence of the same type as, "maiN ne yih kaam karnaa hai" for the correct "mujhe yih kaam karnaa hai"?


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## rahulbemba

panjabigator said:


> Greetings all,
> 
> Pronunciation question: when I use the verb <nikalnā> (िनकलना نكلنا), I tend to place the stress on the first part of the word, something that I must have learned from my family.  I have noticed that speakers also do the opposite.  Do you have any comments on this?  I'm not asking if one pronunciation is right or wrong, but if there is any pronunciation that maps out to particular regions.
> 
> Best wishes,
> PG



IMO, you are right to put emphasis on the first part of the word. It is also because when the word is varied, like "nikal gaya", "nikla kya?" "kab nikloge?", only the first part is used. In pronunciation, I don't think emphasis on the last part would be proper. Haven't heard much also.


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