# verb vs participle



## dukaine

Is there a rule about when you use the participle form and when you use the conjugated verb form?  For example, with words like להעדר and סבך (pual root) - it seems that using the participle form makes the most sense, but Hebrew has both forms.


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## airelibre

I don't understand what you mean. Are they not the same thing?


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## dukaine

Well, in English, "He arrives" is in verb form, and "He is arriving" is in participle form.  For a verb like "lehe'ader", which means to be absent or missing, we would only use absent as an adjective in English.  In Hebrew, it seems that there is a verb form and adjective form for absent.  I was wondering if there were specific cases where each is used.


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## airelibre

Perhaps this may help (the part about uses of participles):
http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Grammar/Unit_Five/Participles/participles.html

Tell me if I still haven't understand your question but אני נעדר means I am missing and I am absent (verb and adjective), while נעדרתי can only be a verb in past tense - I was missing and הייתי נעדר could perhaps be I was absent but I doubt that is ever used. 

However, part of me is also saying that missing in English, in the sense of absent is an adjective, rather than a verb, despite its -ing ending. You cannot say he missed, he misses in the sense of he is/was absent.


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## dukaine

Well, there are words like "leaxer", where the very conjugation is "meaxer", while the adjective is "meuxar".  If a person is late, which do you use?  Is it interchangeable?


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## ystab

dukaine said:


> Well, there are words like "leaxer", where the very conjugation is "meaxer", while the adjective is "meuxar".  If a person is late, which do you use?  Is it interchangeable?



You have a mistake here. מאחר is both a verb conjugation and a participle, for example הוא מאחר בחמש דקות and הוא מאחר כרוני. The word מאוחר is in a different binyan - pu'al - and can be used also as both verb conjugation (הפגישה מאוחרת לשעה שמונה - the meeting is postponed to 8:00 o'clock) and participle (כבר מאוחר - it's already late). I think the confusion stems from the double meaning of the verb איחר: be late and postpone (though דחה is far more used in this meaning).


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## hadronic

I guess the confusion arises also from English using "late" with two different meanings. "I'm late" is different from "it's late".


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## dukaine

I guess what I'm asking is referring to what airelibre mentioned.  Is lihiyot + adj ever used for past and future tense verbs that are inherently passive?


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## trigel

When you use היה מופתע whether it means "he was surprised" or "he would be/have been surprised" has to be deduced from context, right?


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## arielipi

Correct my sir!
although, הוא היה מופתע is he would have been, and without the oged its he was surprised.


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## trigel

arielipi said:


> Correct my sir!
> although, הוא היה מופתע is he would have been, and without the oged its he was surprised.



haya mufta = he was/would be surprised,
hu haya mufta = he'd be surprised,
hu mufta = he was/is surprised
X haya mufta (with appropriate agreement) = X would be surprised
X mufta (with appropriate agreement) = X was/is surprised?


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## origumi

Too many example may confuse here. In Modern Hebrew (like some other Semitic languages) _participle _and _present tense _look the same. Consequently, the same word may be treated as present tense verb, or as participle, or as noun. Sometimes the content tells which, in other cases it remains open.

I believe that the same is correct for Biblical Hebrew, but this may lead to out-of-scope historical debate so put it aside. In pre-Biblical times this may have been different.


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## C_J

There is some confusion here. If using the participle to modify a noun: "The missing boy" vs "The boy is/was/will be missing", the Hebrew counterparts will be "הילד הנעדר" and "הילד נעדר/נעדר/יעדר" respectively.

All three "passive" binyanim (nif'al pu'al and huf'al) have future and past forms, so there is no need to create constructs with "להיות" as in English "was missing/will be missing"

Historically, Hebrew only hase past and future tenses. What we nowadays call "present tense" is actually called "צורת הבינוני" or "צורת הביניים". It can be used instead of verb, to modify a noun, to denote occupation. 
Unlike future/past tenses, בינוני conjugations do not represent person (אני/אתה/הוא שומר but אני] אשמור,[אתה] שמרת]), and you can use "אין" for negation (אינני נוהג לאחר but not אינני איחרתי or אינני אאחר).

With the above in mind, the word "שומר" can mean "a guard (noun)", "he/"male I"/"male you" guards/is guarding (verb)", "saver/keeper/holder (participle - as in "'שומר אחי" "שומר מקום").
You should use the appropriate form depending on the indended meaning.


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## zaw

I think participle means "about to do something" but a conjugated verb does not.


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## utopia

dukaine said:


> Is there a rule about when you use the participle form and when you use the conjugated verb form?  For example, with words like להעדר and סבך (pual root) - it seems that using the participle form makes the most sense, but Hebrew has both forms.



Sometimes it depends if the word is only in בינוני in this specific meaning (a knowledge you get through learning the language). Sometimes the בינוני is the only conjugated form in the participle, because it's an attributive or a noun in the context: להדריך to guide - הוא הדריך אותו - he guided him, but הוא היה מדריך, הוא מדריך, הוא יהיה מדריך - in the meaning of a human guide or instructor.

Similarly let's take משונה (strange) - there is a conjugation of the verb, but not in the same meaning: שונה, ישונה - was changed, will be changed. BTW משונה has both meanings: stange and is changed.

מבוהל, to give a different situation, has no conjuagtion in פועל, so the only way to shift the tenses is by להיות
היה מבוהל, יהיה מבוהל

In general, you have to listsen more to Hebrew speakers to know what form to use, and sometimes the verb or participle is in an in-between situation that might symbolize a transitiuon period (it's being used both ways: מופתע).


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