# Hedonism



## katie_here

How is it said? 

I've just heard a newscaster say "heed onism" whereas I always thought it was "head onism". 

Which is right?


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## Davidvs91

I have always heard it pronounced as "heed onism", though I do not know if there is a difference between AmE and BE.


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## panjandrum

You're surprised, I'm surprised - the OED backs the newscaster.


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## xqby

I was going to say it's probably just an Atlantic difference, but the dictionaries I've checked list only "heed-onism." 
I'd be fine with "head-onism," though only from a Britisher.


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## katie_here

panjandrum said:


> You're surprised, I'm surprised - the OED backs the newscaster.


 
Who was surprised?  

Do you say it the same way I do?  I feel like I'll have to change now, although I prefer head onism!.


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## Monkey F B I

I've always heard it as "heed-onism".


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## Loob

panjandrum said:


> You're surprised, I'm surprised - the OED backs the newscaster.


I cannot _belieeeve_ it - but it's true

Here's another head-case whose BrE head hurts at _heed-onist._

Thank heavens for the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary. 

Phew.


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## bibliolept

I have only ever heard it pronounced as "heed-oh-nism."


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## panjandrum

Righty-ho, so I need to defect to Cambridge then.

I have to say that it's not a word I have needed to pronounce aloud often, if ever.
But it was always headonism inside my head.


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## GreenWhiteBlue

I have never heard "*head*onism" or "*head*onist". I have always heard the words pronounced as "*heed*onism", "*heed*onist", and "*heed*onistic". I had no idea that anyone ever said this word any differently.


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## Katejo

I always thought it was head onism. I don't think I have ever heard the heed version so I'm surprised

Katejo


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## cuchuflete

I've just come in from the back fields, where I _hee_-donisticly admired the hybrid daylilies, and then indulged in extreme _hee_-donism in the raspberry patch. The deer flies attempted a _hee_-donistic meal, consisting of the top of my head.  I swatted the little buggers, they fell dead, I felt smug.  The latter acts were not _hee_-donistic, but were satisfying.


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## Franzi

I've only heard the 'heed' version in AE.  It wouldn't surprise me to hear a different pronunciation from someone with a different accent.


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## ewie

I too have always pronounced it *head-onism* ... but have always been aware that some odd folk (the OED; Americans) pronounce it with a *heed*.

EDIT: I shall carry on pronouncing it *head-onism*.  Bugger the OED.  (Not literally, please.)


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## gasman

As I don't believe I have ever heard anyone use the word, and I always believed the pronunciation to be "headonism" I will change my understanding, but I will never have to change my reading, if by some mischance I come across it again. Thank goodness.


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## katie_here

Thankyou everyone. I'm now convinced it's "heedonism" , and I'll have to watch how it say it. Not that I indulge much these days, you understand,  but at least I'll be able to say it right!.


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## ewie

*Katie:* I've taken the liberty of adding a Poll to your thread ... partly because I'm curious about this word, partly because we haven't had a poll for a while.
_An interesting (possibly) discussion could arise from this thread: to what extent are dictionaries 'right' regarding pronunciation? ~ given that a fair few posters here have always pronounced the word 'head-onism', should they continue in their ways or pay heed [or 'head'] to the 'experts'? Might the experts conceivably be wrong?_
But the Moderators might not approve


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## katie_here

Thanks Ewie.  I've placed my vote. 


I may start another thread because there is another word that I'd be interested to see if anyone BE pronounces the same as me, but time marches on, and I must be on my way to work now.


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## bibliolept

I applaud the decision of those who are going to defy the OED and stick to that to which they're accustomed. For one, I don't particularly think that "heed-onistic" is more euphonious and thus see little reason to abandon a perfectly serviceable pronunciation.


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## ewie

Thanks, Bibbles (and welcome 'home', by the way).
I should point out that the purpose of the poll is _not_ to try and find a 'right' or 'wrong' pronunciation of the word, merely to ascertain how many people _disagree with the experts_.


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## timpeac

Reading through this thread - whatever the dictionaries might say - it seems we have a clear AE/BE divide. Unless I've missed someone it looks like every Brit says "head" and every Yank says "heed". We then also have a Canadian coming down in favour of "head" but isn't sure of actually saying it out loud before.

I don't plan on changing my pronunciation purely based on what someone wrote in a dictionary any time soon.


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## Asr

oops, I guess I should have kept silent; I am no native, but couldn't help it since heedonism sounds way too weird, and I've always heard it the other way...


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## out2lnch

I can't say I've ever pronounced it aloud either, I always pronounced it 'head' in my, well, head.


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## Full Tilt Boogie

Given that the word's origin is from the Greek _*hed*one_ (‘pleasure’), I can see why the British and others pronounce it _head_onist. I've always pronounced it thus and doubt I'll be altering whether to do so any time soon.


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## Loob

I agree with Tim: this looks like a BrE+CanE vs USAmE divide.

Which means, ewie, that you'll probably have to check who voted for which option if you're going to draw any conclusions from the poll


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## sokol

I am shocked to hear that _hedonism _never should be pronounced _headonism_, especially as my dictionaries (all of them!) support the _heedonism _faction. Except for one:

Collins English Dictionary (3rd edition 1991, British English - yes, an ancient one, I know ) lists [ˈhiːdəˌnɪzəm, ˈhɛd-] (p. 720).

That, and the full support of some British English speakers in this thread, is enough for me to not follow the awful geeky pronunciation proposed by the other ones.


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## gasman

It would appear that a Glaswegian will never have a problem with the word-automatically it will come out as "heedonism"!


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## out2lnch

I checked my Oxford online and got this from the 2nd Ed. of the Oxford Dictionary of English and got this for the beginning:

/’hi:d with the alternative ‘hɛ- (the epsilon thingy is superscript)

In the Canadian Oxford Dictionary, only the first alternative from above is given.


In the New Oxford American Dictionary, this is given:


'h('e' with a bar on it in superscript*)d


*I can't make this symbol for some reason.


Since I'm not familiar with working out the pronunciation symbols, I'm not sure what the alternatives shown actually are .


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## sokol

out2lnch said:


> 'h('e' with a bar on it in superscript*)



That would be 'heedonism' then, it's the way some American dictionaries write this vowel.

Anyway, nice to see that there's further support for headonism! (The Oxford alternative with epsilon of course also would be headonism.)
(And how could one _not _support hedonism, eh?! - with 'ea' - )


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## Loob

Sokol's post 25 prompted me to have a scurry through my dictionaries too.

And it struck me that the older ones had only 'heed-onism', while the newer ones had both pronunciations.

 Could it be that 'heed-onism' is an older pronunciation, retained by our US cousins, while we novelty-seeking Brits have all embraced the new kid on the block? 

It wouldn't be the first time something like that had happened


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## ewie

out2lnch said:


> /’hi:d with the alternative ‘hɛ- (the epsilon thingy is superscript)
> 
> *heed* followed by *head*
> 
> 'h('e' with a bar on it in superscript*)d
> *heed*


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## Monkey F B I

Loob said:


> Sokol's post prompted me to have a scurry through all my dictionaries too.
> 
> And it struck me that the older ones had only 'heed-onism', while the newer ones had both pronunciations.
> 
> Could it be that 'heed-onism' is an older pronunciation, retained by our US cousins, while we novelty-seeking Brits have all embraced the new kid on the block?
> 
> It wouldn't be the first time something like that had happened





Every dictionary I've checked says "heed-onism", including ones on the internet. I guess this is 1 point for the Americans 

Now we're only 326 points behind the Brits


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## ewie

Loob said:


> ewie, that you'll probably have to check who voted for which option if you're going to draw any conclusions from the poll


I shall be doing a full statistical analysis with graphs and pies and everything later, LooLoo.


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## timpeac

Loob said:


> Sokol's post 25 prompted me to have a scurry through my dictionaries too.
> 
> And it struck me that the older ones had only 'heed-onism', while the newer ones had both pronunciations.
> 
> Could it be that 'heed-onism' is an older pronunciation, retained by our US cousins, while we novelty-seeking Brits have all embraced the new kid on the block?
> 
> It wouldn't be the first time something like that had happened


 Could well be - I'm sure I've read that US English is more conservative than British English. In other words what the Americans say now is more similar to English before the boats set off across the atlantic than British English currently is (despite the "we invented it" attitude of many of my compatriots!)


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## Asr

Does anybody want to give a try to : www.howjsay.com  ?


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## xqby

Loob said:


> Could it be that 'heed-onism' is an older pronunciation, retained by our US cousins, while we novelty-seeking Brits have all embraced the new kid on the block?


 
It sure seems that way to me, after looking up how the root is pronounced.
The Greek word for pleasure is more or less "heedonee" apparently.

Would you wacky limeys pronounce a word with the same etymology like "anhedonia" as "an-head-oh-nee-uh"?


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## sokol

Asr said:


> Does anybody want to give a try to : www.howjsay.com  ?



How nice, this site clearly supports [ˈhɛdəˌnɪzəm]*). 

*) That is, _headonism _of course, what else.


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## sokol

xqby said:


> The Greek word for pleasure is more or less "heedonee" apparently.



It's actually 'heithon-' = 'pleasure' in modern Greek (with the vowel 'ei' pronounced as in 'either').*)
But in Classical Greek it was 'hethon-'. So BE would be more 'classical' if we follow this reasoning ...

*) Now I'm opening another of those boxes of Pandora ... what I meant here of course is the 'eether' variety of 'either', not the 'ayther' ('ither', whatever) version.


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## Monkey F B I

sokol said:


> It's actually 'heithon-' = 'pleasure' in modern Greek (with the vowel 'ei' pronounced as in 'either').*)
> But in Classical Greek it was 'hethon-'. So BE would be more 'classical' if we follow this reasoning ...
> 
> *) Now I'm opening another of those boxes of Pandora ... what I meant here of course is the 'eether' variety of 'either', not the 'ayther' ('ither', whatever) version.



This is kind of superficial, but apparently in classic Greek it was _hédon__é_

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hedonism

Whether or not those are pronounced the same way, I have no idea


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## sokol

Monkey F B I said:


> This is kind of superficial, but apparently in classic Greek it was _hédon__é_



Yes, certainly - in your version Greek eta = η is represented with /é/ (the other one being the epsilon = ε); this is one of the two e-sounds in Greek which later became /i/ (= /ee/ as in English 'he-', no - that's cruel, let's say /ee/ as in 'deed', yes? ).

And I left out the ending in my version (indicated with the hyphen), it's actually /heithonei/ in my transliteration (that is, /e/ = epsilon while /ei/ = eta, made up on the spot by me as I don't know much about transliteration norms for Greek - but this now really looks horrible, the solution with eta represented as 'é' is much better), or in Greek: 'ἡδονή'.*)

*) Sorry, I should have written the original in the first place, but this really took me quite some time to figure out how to write it (lexilogos was of great help). I just hope I haven't put any accents wrong.


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## Full Tilt Boogie

xqby said:


> It sure seems that way to me, after looking up how the root is pronounced.
> *The Greek word for pleasure is more or less "heedonee" apparently.*
> 
> Would you wacky limeys pronounce a word with the same etymology like "anhedonia" as "an-head-oh-nee-uh"?




The Greek word is '*hed*one' - why, after reading its spelling, would anyone pronounce it 'heed'? 

An interesting BrEng/AmEng syntactical/pronunciation point here in a similar vein.

Back in 1968, Jimmy Page put a British band together called _Led_ Zeppelin. The name of the band was suggested by the [then] drummer of the band 'The Who', Keith Moon. He heard Zep in concert one night before they became famous (and when they were still called 'The New Yardbirds') and made the remark that they were so good that they'd "go down like a _le*a*d_ Zeppelin..."

Page liked the name and took it - but to obviate the risk of fans in the US pronouncing it 'leed', he removed the 'a' to render it 'Led'.


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## timpeac

xqby said:


> The Greek word for pleasure is more or less "heedonee" apparently.


The pronunciation of the modern Greek word you mean, as opposed to the Ancient which would be more "head"?


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## Katejo

I asked an older colleague what she thought about it today. She definitely supported head onism and had never heard of the heed version.

Katejo


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## gasman

The Greek "eta" was pronounced Aita when I was learning classical Greek at school, as in "hay"; just to mess things up even more.


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## Full Tilt Boogie

gasman said:


> The Greek "eta" was pronounced Aita when I was learning classical Greek at school, as in "hay"; just to mess things up even more.



But like any vowel sound (in Classical or Modern Greek), _eta_ was softened/hardened by the following consonant 'd', hence _hed_.


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## ewie

Loob said:


> And it struck me that the older ones had only 'heed-onism', while the newer ones had both pronunciations


Oh that's interesting stuff, L.  I wonder why that should be ~ I mean why it should be that us lot are (apparently) shifting from _ee_ to _eh_.  Some kind of Vowel Movement, possibly?

Erm, what else was I going to say?  Ah yes: all the stuff about Ancient Greek is fair enough, but aren't we talking about _Modern English_?


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## PMS-CC

I vote for "heed." 

If some of us are having a vowel movement from _ee _to _eh, _I have to wonder about the schwa-infatuated Californians.  Will we all be hudunists before long?


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## nzfauna

I naturally say _head_-onism.

However, I checked my "Collins New Zealand English Dictionary", and it gives both pronunciations.


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## cycloneviv

I'm also a "head" sayer, so you can add NZE and AusE to the list of "headers", by the looks.


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## Brioche

My old standby, Daniel Jones'_ English Pronouncing Dictionary_ gives both, with HEE- first, and HEAD- second.


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## Forero

Since I have always heard "heed onism", I say it the same way.  I have never heard "anhedonia", but in my head it has always been "Ann Ed onia" (sort of a schwa for the "E", but definitely not "ee").


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## sokol

gasman said:


> The Greek "eta" was pronounced Aita when I was learning classical Greek at school, as in "hay"; just to mess things up even more.



But the thing is that pronunciations of Classical languages differ from country to country (for example, in the German speech community the eta _always _is an /e/ similar to the one in English 'head').

Probably someone knows if in the UK the eta _also _was pronounced (in Classical Languages education) as 'ayta' as in 'hay'. If not, if it were 'eata' (with 'ea' being the vowel of 'head': an open /e/ and not a diphtong), then we probably could have an explanation for the BE spelling variety.



Brioche said:


> My old standby, Daniel Jones'_ English Pronouncing Dictionary_ gives both, with HEE- first, and HEAD- second.


Daniel Jones now, that is quite an authority to quote. 
(In British English only, of course.)


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## Kevin Beach

I'm afraid that "traditional" pronunciation of classical languages in British education is a bad test of anything. Until the early 20th century, Latin and Ancient Greek were pronounced as though their words were English, even if they had not been imported into English.


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## half-truism

I voted "heed-onism". That's how I would pronounce it.


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## gasman

No, nothing makes it "right", and in this case it would seem that nothing makes it wrong. Neither is correct or incorrect. The options are both correct, it would appear. Pay your money and take your choice.


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## Brioche

sokol said:


> Probably someone knows if in the UK the eta _also _was pronounced (in Classical Languages education) as 'ayta' as in 'hay'. If not, if it were 'eata' (with 'ea' being the vowel of 'head': an open /e/ and not a diphtong), then we probably could have an explanation for the BE spelling variety.



Traditional, and current, English pronunciation of the Greek letter *η* Eta is /i:tə/, just like a non-rhotic eater.

And the Greek letter Beta *β *is /bi:tə/,  a non-rhotic beater.


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## Trisia

Impossible to vote, I find them both so natural.

Let's see... my teacher back in high school spoke BE, but I think she used to say heed-onism anyway. But I'd expect Brits to say "head" for some unknown reason.


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## Full Tilt Boogie

Kevin Beach said:


> I'm afraid that "traditional" pronunciation of classical languages in British education is a bad test of anything. Until the early 20th century, Latin and Ancient Greek were pronounced as though their words were English, even if they had not been imported into English.



Just as an aside, I'm happy to see that the teaching of Latin in the UK has seen a 25% growth in the last 2 years or so. Such a wonderful tool in allowing you to understand other (certainly the Romance) languages.



			
				gasman said:
			
		

> No, nothing makes it "right", and in this case it would seem that nothing makes it wrong. Neither is correct or incorrect. The options are both correct, it would appear. Pay your money and take your choice.



I feel that both the above (KevinB & Gasman) put this pronunciation into perspective - indeed, not only this word's pronunciation.

Anyone who's read Bill Bryson's book _Mother Tongue: English, and How It Got That Way_ will know that the US still carries a lot of former (at least in days of yore) British pronunciation where the British have either left it or have now changed the way they use and pronounce certain words.







Then there will always be regional differences/pronuciations: you say tomato, I say _tomato_ etc.


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## WisteriaLane

I would have said 'head-' and I voted for it... I've checked the collins dictionary and it seems both are acceptable. Wouldn't it be nice? Nodody would lose!


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## ewie

Well, WisLane, a fairly definite finding of this thread so far is that in British* English the _head-_ version is now accepted enough to appear in dictionaries, i.e. the dictionaries seem at last to have caught up with BE*-_speakers_.
Whereas in the USA the pronunciation ~ and, presumably, the dictionaries ~ are 'fixed' on the _heed-_ version.
For me at least this does indeed mean: *Both are acceptable*.

*CAN, OZ, NZ, etc.


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