# FR: Ne le lui a-t-on jamais pardonné



## pickle88

Another one that I just can't get my head around...

Ne le lui a-t-on jamais pardonné

Is this the intransitive form of pardonner here? Ne pas pardonner.. to be fatal?

It was never fatal to him?

I have to replace the pronouns with nouns, but as I haven't a clue what the sentence is saying yet I have no attempt...


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## bloomiegirl

Hello Pickle88... "Didn't they ever forgive him for it?"  or "Did they never forgive him?"
BTW, "_le_" is a direct object ("it"), and so "_pardonner_" is transitive in this sentence.


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## pickle88

Thanks bloomiegirl

Is the subject _on_? Within the _ne pas_? The construction of this sentence is really confusing me.. I don't understand where the _they_ comes from in the translation?


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## bloomiegirl

Yes indeed, the subject is "_on_." As close to word-for-word as I dare, it would be "Did one never forgive him for it?" But no native English speaker would ever utter that! 

And you're right again... I've assumed that this fellow was to be forgiven by many people; that's why I used "they." 
I've also assumed that it's a fellow and not a gal, although it could be either, that wasn't forgiven.

On second thought, I think a passive construction would be better:  _Wasn't he (or she) ever forgiven (for it)?_


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## pickle88

Thanks so much! One more question..
If I were to replace the pronouns with nouns, for the sake of my french assignment, would/could I say:

N'a-t-on jamais pardonné Louis d'avoir menti ?


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## bloomiegirl

I do believe it would be: _N'a-t-on jamais pardonné *à* Louis d'avoir menti ?_
The phrase "_à Louis_" replaces the indirect object "_lui_."


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## Maurice le difficile

The "le" implies that it is the act that can be forgiven in this case, as opposed to the person (lui).


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## bloomiegirl

Quite right; _on pardonne quelque chose à quelqu'un._


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## pointvirgule

pickle88 said:


> If I were to replace the pronouns with nouns, for the sake of my french assignment, would/could I say:
> 
> N'a-t-on jamais pardonné [à] Louis d'avoir menti ?


Not really, because _d'avoir menti_ is not a nominal phrase.


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## Maurice le difficile

Ne lui a-t-on jamais pardonné son mensonge?

Ne le lui a-t-on jamais pardonné (ce mensonge)?


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## bloomiegirl

Pointvirgule is (of course) right; "_le_" needs to be repleaced by a noun. 
So, using Maurice's suggestion, we get "_N'a-t-on jamais pardonné à Louis son mensonge_."


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## pickle88

Of course! So _le_ replaces a noun, whereas the example I gave would have used _en_, is that right? Anyway I have my answer, thanks so much guys


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## papamac

"Ne lui en a-t-on jamais pardonné" me semble un peu bizarre, mais je ne suis pas français.


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## radagasty

pickle88 said:


> So _le_ replaces a noun, whereas the example I gave would have used _en_, is that right?


 
_En _may only replace a clause introduced by _de _if there exists a parallel construction where _de_ is followed by a noun phrase. In the case of _pardonner_, the two constructions are _pardonner qqch à qqn _and _pardonner à qqn d'avoir fait qqch_. To my knowledge, the construction _pardonner de qqch_ is impossible, and _de_+clause cannot therefore be replaced by _en_.

However, I would say that instead of
_On n'a jamais pardonné à Louis d'avoir menti._

one could indeed have
_On ne l'a jamais pardonné à Louis._


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