# относительного



## pimlicodude

From Solzhenitsyn:


> В английском парламенте 9 марта министру иностранных дел был задан в палате общин вопрос в отношении евреев в России: собирается ли он консультироваться с русским правительством относительного гарантий русским евреям на будущее и возмещений им за прошлое?


Can both относительного+Gen and относительно+Gen be used to mean "regarding". This use is not in Wiktionary or Multitran.


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## nizzebro

It definitely looks as a typo; the adverb  относительно is expected (actually working as a kind of preposition here).


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## pimlicodude

There are many sentences on context reverso with "относительного того" where "относительно того" should be expected. Maybe this falls into the category of errors that some native speakers make (there is a large category of such errors in English).


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## nizzebro

pimlicodude said:


> There are many sentences on context reverso with "относительного того" where "относительно того" should be expected.


I checked, and indeed, there are many, and, you know, this looks quite suspicious.
I got a feeling that these are not real excerpts but rather something fished from blocks of machine-processed text, like those failures of Google translator. In general, Context Reverso is also not perfect in respect to validity of material, unfortunately.


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## Awwal12

nizzebro said:


> In general, Context Reverso is also not perfect in respect to validity of material, unfortunately.


Yes. It does contain occasional examples of (very wrong) machine translation, even though those are rare.


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## Maroseika

pimlicodude said:


> Maybe this falls into the category of errors that some native speakers make (there is a large category of such errors in English).


This is absolutely impossible error for a native.


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## Kort en Bondig

It appears to be an epenthesis. (эпентеза) As you rightly observed, most of the time it occurs when 'относительно' is followed by 'того'.

A cluster of similar sounds might be confusing to speakers who don't employ a certain word on a regular basis. They might have heard this word a couple of times, they might have guessed its definition correctly, but they fail to implement it in a proper context and to pronounce it the way it should be. They also usually see it as a word that educated and cultured people would use. 

In Russian the tendency is that in cases of epenthesis it's the sounds of the syllable that follows that get repeated in the preceding one.

беcпрецедентный = беcпрецеНдентный
искусcтво = искуВсcтво
касательно того = касательноГО того

It would be safe to assume that once 'относительно того' had been pronounced with an epenthesis it went on to live its life as 'относительного' even after being separated from 'того'.

As for the effect that it makes in the cited sentence, I would describe it as adding a smirk. The piece of text is packed with words denoting important foreign figures and institutions, with lofty Latin loanwords, and then the author instead of resorting to some derogatory epithet 'drops' a butchered preposition, in a form the common folk would often say it. All of this to demonstrate his attitude of skepticism towards the fruitfulness of the activity of the people he's writing about. 

And on a side note, I was surprised to find so relatively many results of 'относительного' doing a search on the internet.


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## Awwal12

Kort en Bondig said:


> In Russian the tendency is that in cases of epenthesis it's the sounds of the syllable that follows that get repeated in the preceding one.
> 
> беcпрецедентный = беcпрецеНдентный
> искусcтво = искуВсcтво


These two look rather analogical. *Прецендент < претендент, трансцендентный and other derivatives from "tendo" and "scando"; *искувсство doesn't contain any superfluous sounds at all, as /vstv/ is typically simplified to /stv/, so the only issue here is the hypercorrect _spelling_, influenced by generally more frequent чувствовать and девственный, though the latter may be also pronounced with [ф] (cf. also hypercorrect spellings *шевствовать, *явства, *учавствовать etc.).


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## Rosett

Kort en Bondig said:


> It would be safe to assume that once 'относительно того' had been pronounced with an epenthesis it went on to live its life as 'относительного' even after being separated from 'того'.


Pronouncing «относительно того» with added «-го» is impossible even for drunk dead native intellectuals. It sounds like полная дичь (absolute nonsense.)
This phenomenon could arise only in a written form by using broken automatic translators on Internet, multiplying an occasional typo, as, indeed, относительного agrees with того grammatically and may be used as such, in theory, on few occasions.
But it’s funny to see «относительно того» and “относительного того» used in the same sentence:

Эпистемология - Philosophy.ru
Dec 14, 2005 — ... ошибаться относительно того, что имеет место быть в действительности, но не относительного того, во что у него есть основания верить.

Facebook - log in or sign up › razuva...
Разуванов А - Home | Facebook
Но только не относительного того, что мы её потеряли, а относительно того, когда это произошло. А произошло это, как мне представляется, ещё в 90-

Пикабу — Горячее › ... › Пантомима
Пантомима "невидимая стена" - Пикабу
Nov 12, 2019 — Не относительного того, что кот таки не мим, а относительно того, что стекло там все-таки есть, понимаете?


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## nizzebro

Awwal12 said:


> influenced by generally more frequent чувствовать and девственный


I guess the reason is just that a root within a noun is expected to be closed with some consonant (whether в, or д, or й) - and only that искусство tricks with its doubled -с-, and яства, шествовать trick with their degenerated stems.

For me, чувствовать is also confusing for some reason, I'd prefer a nice workaround "*чуйствовать" - but, the grammar and society is against it...


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## Kort en Bondig

Most commonly, the described instance of epenthesis crops up when it comes to adjectives that end with 'ый' in the nom. c., and with 'ого' in the gen.c., in particular with those indicating colors. 
зелёного - зелёно*во*го
красного - красно*во*го
коричневого - коричнево*во*го (this one though)

As you can see, the added sounds are even rendered phonetically. 

A google search will provide hundreds of examples for words of this kind. On some occasions a form like this is clearly chosen for stylistic purposes, there are other times when it seems that a person utilizing it genuinely believes it to be correct.


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## pimlicodude

Kort en Bondig said:


> Most commonly, the described instance of epenthesis crops up when it comes to adjectives that end with 'ый' in the nom. c., and with 'ого' in the gen.c., in particular with those indicating colors.
> зелёного - зелёно*во*го
> красного - красно*во*го
> коричневого - коричнево*во*го (this one though)
> 
> As you can see, the added sounds are even rendered phonetically.
> 
> A google search will provide hundreds of examples for words of this kind. On some occasions a form like this is clearly chosen for stylistic purposes, there are other times when it seems that a person utilizing it genuinely believes it to be correct.


Kort en Bondig, I like colloquial words like отсюдова, оттудова etc - and if you look on Google, there are native speakers who think they are genitives, отсюдого, оттудого. [They might be formed on an analogy with real genitive words, but these are not actual "genitives".] E.g. улепётывай отсюдова, "get lost!"


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## Kort en Bondig

pimlicodude said:


> [They might be formed on an analogy with real genitive words, but these are not actual "genitives".] E.g. улепётывай отсюдова, "get lost!"


Certainly, those adverbs seem to be treated as if they were nouns.


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## Awwal12

pimlicodude said:


> Kort en Bondig, I like colloquial words like отсюдова, оттудова etc - and if you look on Google, there are native speakers who think they are genitives, отсюдого, оттудого.


Many people apparently just cannot get around the spelling rules for -го/-во(-ва). That also results in misspelling "Задорнова" as "Задорного" (though they obviously know he's "Задорнов", not "Задорный") and other funny examples.


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## nizzebro

Kort en Bondig said:


> коричневого - коричнево*во*го (this one though)


A nice one; and I feel there is a certain line of assumptions behind it. It would be great to get a "disassembly listing" of one's brain processing this form. Something like this: коричнево... Looks like a complete adv. or adj.gen. form but no... what should I do here.... let's attach one more... now the suffix is incomplete; and besides a ridiculous reduplication there... okay, let's terminate it properly, then" - not exactly this, of course.


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## Rosett

pimlicodude said:


> I like colloquial words like отсюдова, оттудова etc - and if you look on Google, there are native speakers who think they are genitives, отсюдого, оттудого. [They might be formed on an analogy with real genitive words, but these are not actual "genitives".] E.g. улепётывай отсюдова, "get lost!"


These words are found in their lower colloquial regional forms in the reputable dictionaries.

Научно-информационный «Орфографический академический ресурс АКАДЕМОС» Института русского языка им. В. В. Виноградова РАН.
отсюдова (сниж. к отсюда)
Подробная информация о словарной базе и расширенный поиск – на сайте orfo.ruslang.ru.

Gufo.me — словари и энциклопедии › dict › отседова
отседова — Орфографический словарь Лопатина - Gufo.me
отседова
орф. отседа и отседова (обл. и прост. к отсюда)
Русский орфографический словарь Лопатина

ОТСЕДОВА - что такое в Словаре русского языка XVIII в
ОТСЕДОВА, нареч. Прост. Из этого, с этого места, отсюда. Севодни воспу приви детям Ник Александровича, а ты знаешь, что ни у Катиньки, ни у меня оспы не было, то она боится и бежит отседова. Псм Капн. 367.
Словарь русского языка XVIII в

Словари и энциклопедии на Академике › dic.nsf › о...
это... Что такое оттедова? - Словари и энциклопедии на Академике
оттуда — оттоль, оттудова, оттоле, из того места, от того места, с того места, оттеда, оттедова, оттуда с того места, ...
Словарь русских синонимов.


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