# Schuld (guilt / debt)



## ThomasK

I noticed that we use the word *'schuld'* in several compositions, but that there is no equivalent in English containing one and the same 'root word'. 

(a) _schulden_ - *debts* (_de schulden van Griekenland_, of Greece)

(b) schuld, schuldig - *guilt, guilty* (hij voelt zich schuldig, he feels guilty - _het is zijn schuld_, he is *to blame*)

(c) zich verontschuldigen - to apologize, lit.* 'ex-cuse'* oneself 

So: do you use the same root word in those contexts ? (Thanks)


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## Angelo di fuoco

Yes. It's the same in German:
a) Schulden (f. pl.) - die Schulden Griechenlands
b) Schuld (f.), schuldig (es ist seine Schuld)
c) sich entschuldigen


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## apmoy70

Not in Greek, different roots. Debt is «χρέος» ('xreos, _n._) from the ancient Greek «χρέος» ('xreŏs, _n._-->duty). It is cognate with obligation in modern Greek. We say «έχεις χρέος» ('exis 'xreos), "you have debt" and we mean "you're obliged to". Or we say «είσαι υπόχρεος/υποχρεωμένος» ('ise i'poxreos/ipoxreo'menos), "you're under debt/debt-bound" and we mean "you're obliged/beholden".
_De schulden van Griekenland _is «το χρέος της Ελλάδας» (to 'xreos tis E'laðas-the debt of Greece)

[x] is a voiceless velar fricative, known as the hard ch
[ð] is a voiced dental non-sibilant fricative


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## ThomasK

The parallel with German seems perfect indeed, whereas it is often not the case. 

*Debt and obligation:* interesting connection, but as far as I can see we don't have it (only: _Hoeveel moet ik u ?_ [Lit. how much must I you (do I owe you)], but that is no longer considered standard Dutch). 

But how about (c), *apologizing* ? (Thanks)


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## apmoy70

ThomasK said:


> But how about (c), *apologizing* ?


To apologize-apologizing in Greek is «ζητώ συγγνώμη» (zi'to siŋ'ɣnomi: lit. "to ask for fellow  feeling/forbearance"-->preposition συν-, sūn-, meaning "with,  together with" + feminine noun γνώμη-'ɣnōmē, meaning "thought, opinion,  intelligence), or «ζητώ συγχώρεση» (zi'to siŋ'xoresi: lit. "to ask to come together/meet"-->preposition συν-, sūn-, meaning "with, together with" + verb χωρέω/χωρῶ-xō'reō [uncontracted]/xō'rō [contracted], meaning "to fit in, get into").
In Standard Greek, «απολογούμαι-apolo'ɣume» means "to speak in defence, defend oneself", the verb retains its ancient meaning.
In Cypriot Greek however,  apolo'ɣume means to apologize, probably after English influence.  


ThomasK said:


> (Thanks)


You're most welcome

[ɣ] is a voiced velar fricative
[x] is a voiceless velar fricative, known as the hard ch
[ŋ] is a velar nasal


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## ThomasK

Oh yes, as in Socrates' famous Apologia. It is funny to these semantic evolutions (I liked 'apo-logize' and interpret it as 'talk away my guilt/ mistake/...', but that is some kind of popular etymology, I suppose...).


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## ThomasK

In the meantime I thought of this: so far there seem to be three different roots involved  
- some *obligation, *as in _debt_/_debet/ dette_,  as in _xreos_, duty, as in _schuld _(*shall/ zullen/ sollen*, which is close to the first:_ Thou shalt do that_),
- '*causa'/ cause* (as in _excuse_)
- maybe *paying* (guilt: origin is not clear, I am told)


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## Awwal12

*Russian:*

a) debt - долг /dolg/ (also means "duty").
It is related with the next words:
- "должен" /d*o*lzhen/ (a short masculine form of adjective "должный"), which means "must", "should", "ought"; "owes" (money).
- "должник" /dolzhn*i*k/ (a debtor)
- "должность" /d*o*lzhnost'/ (a job, a post, a position, duties)
- "должный" /d*o*lzhnyi/ (due, proper - adj., formal)

b) guilt - "вина" /vin*a*/ (also "a fault"); legal "виновность" /vin*o*vnost'/
guilty - "виноватый" /vinov*a*tyi/; legal "виновный" /vin*o*vnyi/

Related words:
винить /vin*i*t'/ - to blame, to accuse
обвинять /obviny*a*t'/ - to accuse, to charge, to blame
извинять /izviny*a*t'/ - to excuse, to pardon

c) to apologize - "извиняться" /izviny*a*tsa/; literally "to out-accuse oneself", "to excuse oneself".
Very close to German "sich entschuldigen", Dutch "zich verontschuldigen". A calque is possible, since the word is quite formal.
P.S.: a more colloquial variant is "просить прощения" /pros*i*t' proshch*e*niya/, literally - "to ask for forgiveness".


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## ThomasK

Great! So you have the same root in b and c in Russian, don't you ? Or could you analyse _vinyatsa_ further ? _Vina_ is fault, guilt, but is the /y/ a denominative verb infix ?


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## Awwal12

> Or could you analyse vinyatsa further ? Vina is fault, guilt, but is the /y/ a denominative verb infix ?


It is not an infix; it is rather a defect of transliteration, since Roman alphabet isn't good when one tries to represent somehow different palatalized consonants.  Here it just means that "n" is palatalized (and, hence, the next /a/ phoneme automatically turns into the allophone [æ]).

As for the change in suffixes, "-nit" turns into "-nyat'" here just naturally. In Russian, when you add a functional prefix to some elementary imperfective verb, it automatically becomes a perfective verb; to make it imperfective (keeping the new meaning), you should make some changes in the verbal suffixes.

Actually, the most of Russian verbs have imperfective and perfective variants; I usually give only those of imperfective aspect (to make things simpler, and since all perfective verbs have imperfective analogues - but not vice versa).
vin*i*t' (elementary, imperfective only)
obvin*i*t' (perfective) -> obviny*a*t' (imperfective).


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## ThomasK

I see, I am sorry, it is due to my inexistent knowledge of Russian. Thanks !


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## ampurdan

In Spanish:

a) Debt is "deuda", akin to English "debt", from Latin "debitum, -i", which meant both "debt" and "obligation".

A related word in Spanish is "deudo", which means "relative" (because these were thought to be the people one is "naturally" under obligation to, I guess). It's not a common word.

El "débito conyugal", from Latin "debitum coniugale" is, according to Canon Law (the Roman Catholic Church Law): a mutual sexual obligation between husband and wife.

b) Guilt is "culpa", from Latin "culpa, -ae", which meant "fault".

Culpa and debt are unrelated.


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## jazyk

I'll use Ampurdan's post to provide Portuguese:

a) Debt is "dívida", akin to English "debt", from Latin "debitum, -i", which meant both "debt" and "obligation".

The "débito conjugal", from Latin "debitum coniugale" according to Canon Law (the Roman Catholic Church Law): a mutual sexual obligation between husband and wife.

b) Guilt is "culpa", from Latin "culpa, -ae", which meant "fault".

Culpa and debt are unrelated. 	

It should be debitum conjugale or coniugale, by the way. Is adjectives have e in the neuter.


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## ThomasK

Great. I should have known: _*culpa*_ is another root for guilt, indeed. Are you quite sure the word _guilt_ is related with it? (From /p/ to /t/ ?)

_Deudo_ and _divida_ then. I would have thought _divida_ had to do with _to divide_, but  you will certainly be right. 

_(I am looking forward to some Scandinavian, Finnish, Hungarian, Central or Eastern European and other contributions now)_


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## ampurdan

ThomasK said:


> Great. I should have known: _*culpa*_ is another root for guilt, indeed. Are you quite sure the word _guilt_ is related with it? (From /p/ to /t/ ?)/



I don't know. I only meant to say that "culpa" means "guilt". I did not want to imply that they are etymologically related.



ThomasK said:


> _Deudo_



Deud*o*: relative.

Deud*a*: debt.


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## ThomasK

I see, sorry !


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## szivike

ThomasK said:


> (a) _schulden_ - *debts* (_de schulden van Griekenland_, of Greece)
> 
> (b) schuld, schuldig - *guilt, guilty* (hij voelt zich schuldig, he feels guilty - _het is zijn schuld_, he is *to blame*)
> 
> (c) zich verontschuldigen - to apologize, lit.* 'ex-cuse'* oneself



It's not the same in Hungarian. You would use:

(a) adósság - root word adó, meaning taxes

(b) hiba, hibás - guilt, guilty. Root word is fault, lit. "to be at fault"

(c) bocsánat or elnézést - apology. Elnézést literally would be asking someone to look the other way, to not notice the mistake.


In Romanian it goes like this:

(a) datorie - debt 

(b) vină, vinovat - guilt, guilty

(c) scuze, scuză-mă - apology, this comes from "ex-cuse" I think.


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## ThomasK

Quite interesting, Szivike. Let me ask some extra questions: 
 - _adó_: could it be literally *'charges'* (things that way on you: _belastingen_ with us, are like _'lasten'_, you have to carry them, or even bear them)
 - _hiba_: how *heavy* do these *faults* weigh ? Do they have a moral connotation ? In what other contexts could you use the word? 
 - _bocsánat_ (forgive me for not adding the accents): does it have a meaning (_elnézést_ - reminds me of apo-logize (talking away)
- vino...: could that be of Slavic origin ?


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## szivike

Adó, adósság - I guess that could be interpreted as "charges" too. It's used with "to have" - Adósságom van, meaning you have a debt towards someone.

Hiba, hibás - It has a moral connotation as well in certain contexts, but a stronger word would be "bűnös" as in sinful. 
Hiba can be used to refer to a faulty machine or equipment as well, example: Ez az óra hibás. - This clock is faulty/broken/not working. 
If you say "Ő volt a hibás!" you mean "He did it, he was the guilty one!"

Bocsánat - I can't think of a meaning similar to one elnézést has. However I can tell you that you have to ask for it and when someone forgives you they grant it to you. "Bocsánatot kérni" - To ask for forgiveness / pardon. "Megbocsájtani" - To forgive. 

Vină, vinovat - I couldn't tell you the origins but since it resembles an example above, I'd say you're right.


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## sakvaka

In *Finnish*:

Let's start with the word _syy_. It has three paraller meanings: 1) cause 2) reason 3) fault, blame

1. _Syy ja seuraus_ = cause and effect
2. _Mikä on syy käytökseesi? _= What's the reason/motive to your behaviour?
3. _Se on minun syytäni. _= It's my fault.

When we derive the word with the suffixes -llinen and -UUs, we get the words _syyllinen_ (schuldig) and _syyllisyys_ (schuld). You can sense all the base meanings in them, more or less.

Schuld, -en is translated with another word: _velka_. However, I can't detect any familiar words in it.


_Zich verontschuldigen_ is, on the other hand, simply _pyytää anteeksi_ -- to ask for an apology. No clear stems.

In *Swedish*:

- schuld, -en = skuld
- schuld(ig) = skuld, skyldig
- zich verontschuldigen = (something else since they don't use the word skuld)

Note too: _Han tog på sig skulden för det_. He took the blame on himself for it.

Here skuld is used as a paraller of the Finnish syy, 3rd meaning. _Hän otti syyt niskoilleen siitä_. I notice some similarities with your third Dutch example, ThomasK. Does your phrase contain the idea of taking the blame or accusing oneself? That may be one missing ring...


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## ThomasK

Great, this _*syy*_ word, it seems to me. 

My expression does not so much imply taking the blame, although implicitly anyone who uses the phrase and thus apologizes, implicitly takes the blame indeed... But this seems tricky to me! (Thanks !)


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## bibax

Latin:

a) debt - debitum (also creditum);

b) guilt - culpa; vitium (fault); peccatum (sin);

c) to apologize - (se) excusare (from ex + causa): habe me excusatum! (excuse me!);
to forgive - dimittere, remittere, ignoscere, condonare (pardon is from per-donare);


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## bibax

Czech:

a) debt - dluh

b) guilt - vina; provinění; hřích (= sin);

c)  to apologize - omluvit/omlouvat (se); mluvit means to speak;
to forgive - odpustit/odpouštět; pustit means to release, to dissmiss, ...;


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## Angelo di fuoco

ThomasK said:


> Quite interesting, Szivike. Let me ask some extra questions:
> - _adó_: could it be literally *'charges'* (things that way on you: _belastingen_ with us, are like _'lasten'_, you have to carry them, or even bear them)
> - _hiba_: how *heavy* do these *faults* weigh ? Do they have a moral connotation ? In what other contexts could you use the word?
> - _bocsánat_ (forgive me for not adding the accents): does it have a meaning (_elnézést_ - reminds me of apo-logize (talking away)
> - vino...: could that be of Slavic origin ?


"Hiba" has a cognate in Czech: chyba means mistake, as for all I know Translate.google.com gives the following meanings:
mistake
error
lapse
slip
slip-up
erratum
fault
inadequacy
defect
failing
However, chyba in Polish, although written exactly in the same way and pronounced almost alike, has a completely different meaning.

By the way, it would be quite interesting to see what slavisms there are in Hungarian: a very interesting topic, even more than slavisms in Romanian. 

vină, vinovat: definitely Slavic origin. The last word is the predicative adjective form in Russian and, I suppose, also in Ucrainian and in the West Slavic languages (when there still was something like that - as for all I know, in Czech it was quite old-fashioned already in the beginning of the 20th century). Suppose it goes the same way in Bulgarian.


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## Awwal12

> By the way, it would be quite interesting to see what slavisms there are in Hungarian: a very interesting topic, even more than slavisms in Romanian.


~20% of vocabulary (mostly nouns), according to Wikipedia. No wonder, taking into account the assimilation of large Slavic-speaking population in Pannonia by ancient Hungarians.


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## ThomasK

_(Why don't you start a thread about that? Maybe not here though. )_ But what I find most interesting is this 'semantic evolution': one concept (probably) developing into different meanings, sometimes almost opposite... Like here: we are referring to different concept, but are using the same and different terms... Just amazing. 

I wondered: do you see any links between lots of these Slavic words and others via Indo-European 'roots' (not the correct word, but OK) ?


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## Awwal12

> I wondered: do you see any links between lots of these Slavic words and others via Indo-European 'roots' (not the correct word, but OK) ?


Only not in Hungarian, since it is not an Indo-European language. )
The words sharing the same root as "vina" may exist in other IE languages, but even if it is so, the meaning should be totally different. For instance, another word of the same origin in Russian (!) is "война" (voyn*a*)... "a war".


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## DenisBiH

> *(a)* _schulden_ - *debts* (_de schulden van Griekenland_, of Greece)



In BCMS: _*dug* (_debt_, *dug*ovi _debts_), za*duž*enje, *dug*ovanje_, all from Common Slavic root *dъlgъ supposedly borrowed from Gothic dulgs 




> *(b)* schuld, schuldig - *guilt, guilty* (hij voelt zich schuldig, he feels guilty - _het is zijn schuld_, he is *to blame*)



In BCMS: guilty - _kriv_ (also means "crooked" as in "not straight"). But from Common Slavic _vina_ there is _ne*vin*_ "innocent", _ne*vin*ost_ "innocence", _*vin*ovnik _"perpetrator" (seemingly a Russian borrowing), a legal term _*vin*ost_ "guilt" (as in "degree of guilt" - _stepen vinosti_) used along with _krivnja / krivica_. But also _ne*duž*an_ "innocent" with the same root as (a)

"He is to blame" - _Krivnja / krivica je njegova._ (lit. "The guilt is his")




> *(c)* zich verontschuldigen - to apologize, lit.* 'ex-cuse'* oneself



In BCMS:_ Iz*vin*iti se _(out-guilt oneself), also seemingly borrowing from Russian _izvinít'sja_; in Croatian also _ispričati se_ (out-talk oneself)


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## Ghabi

Hi Thomas, I think Nietzsche says something about this in his _Zur Genealogie der Moral _(1887):





> Haben sich diese bisherigen Genealogen der Moral auch nur von Ferne Etwas davon träumen lassen, dass zum Beispiel jener moralische Hauptbegriff »Schuld« seine Herkunft aus dem sehr materiellen Begriff »Schulden« genommen hat?


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## Orlin

Bulgarian:
(a) debt=*дълг*;
(b) guilt=*вина*, guilty=*виновен*;
(c) to apologize=*извинявам се*/ *(да) се извиня* (imperf./ perf. aspect).


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## Awwal12

> (c) to apologize=извинявам се/ (да) се извиня (imperf./ perf. aspect).


Could it be a calque from Russian "извин*я*ться / извин*и*ться", or this expression is of purely Bulgarian origin?


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## Orlin

Awwal12 said:


> Could it be a calque from Russian "извин*я*ться / извин*и*ться", or this expression is of purely Bulgarian origin?


 
I'm not sure but doubt that it is of purely Bulgarian origin and suppose that this word in Bulgarian and BCMS languages is a calque from Russian.


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## Awwal12

> I'm not sure but doubt that it is of purely Bulgarian origin and suppose that this word in Bulgarian and BCMS languages is a calque from Russian.


So looks like it is already a double German-Russian-Bulgarian calque.  That's quite interesting. Such a long way may be typical for loanwords, but I at least don't know another examples of such calques.


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## ThomasK

Nietzsche: this is really Wor(L)dreference at its best, so it seems to me, when a young Cantonese-speaking Hong Kong citizen refers a somewhat older Belgian (aaaarrrrrhhhh) to Nietzsche in German and his philosophy ! I love it !

But I am not so sure Mr Nietzsche ;-) is right. I mean: _Schulden_ refers to _shall_ (and _should_), so I have read, and so I think that refers to essentially human relations, where one person trusts (_credit_) another person and therefore expects things from him/ her, which in some respects can be considered a debt, an obligation 'imposed', no, required by (the very human need for) bonding...


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## Arrius

A cognate of *guilt* does exist in German, connected with the idea of making amends: from the verb *gelten/ es gilt* (_to be valid_), we get* entgelten*,(_to recompense /reward/ to pay someone for something_)), *gelten *itself in Middle High German amd _geltan_ in Old High German having formerly had the meaning of to compensate, to indemnify. These words are in the same family as German _das Geld_ (money), and another cognate,*ontgelden* in Dutch, also means to have to pay for something.

The American version of the Lord's Prayer, "Forgive us our *debts* as we forgive our debtors" also  refers to offences and atonement, the word_ trespasses_ being used instead in England.


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## ThomasK

I remember: those are translations of *'debitum'/* 'debita' in Latin... I can't seem to find whether it refers to money or to offences in Latin...  But how about this difference of 'translation' (_debts_ vs. _trespasses_) to you as a native speaker? They seem quite different to me. Not to you ? 

_*Guilt/ gelten/ gelden*_: great link, and all three seem to refer to PIE _*ghel-to-_ "I pay", if we can believe etymonline.org...


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## Arrius

@ *Thomask *
The way I see it is that you owe a debt to God if you have sinned, and when you_ trespass_ (transgress/ cross the line), that also requires compensation, or contrition with a possible penance, in order to obtain absolution/forgiveness.  In the version of The English Language LiturgicaL Consultation, whose work has greatly influenced new English translations of the Bible apart from the Lord's Prayer, the words _our sins_ and _those who sin against us_ are used.
French uses _offense _and _ont offensés_, and Greek a word that looks very similar: οφειληματα. Lord knows what the Hebrew or Aramaic was which presumably pre-dates everything else.
Some biblical translations do indeed seem to differ wildly, for instance _charity_, which we were told was once a sine qua non for a virtuous life, has now become simply _love_.


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## ThomasK

That seems plausible, indeed, and it would be interesting to hear what other languages use in this context, if there is anything else than debt or trespass.

_(It shows a particular image of God as well, but that is again besides the question here._ _Your reference to_ love _also reminds me of the fact that 16 different blblical words in the Bible have all been replaced by_ sin_, simply - but that is another thread)_


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## Arrius

*it would be interesting to hear what other languages use in this context Thomask*
That would, indeed, be a topic for another thread. But you may satisfy your curiosity by consulting the articles in various languages on the Lord's Prayer/Pater Noster in Wikipedia. Because of its familiarity this prayer is often used as a language sample in descriptions of languages too. I recall having seen even the Pennsylvanian Dutch version, which is, of course, a kind of German. As for the word _sin_ replacing 16 other words, in Polynesia, the natives, who had no word for things like prison, guilt, or sin etc.- though they did have _taboo_ - did not know they were sinning till the missionaries told them so, which somewhat spoilt their lives of innocent _dolce far niente_. (I have just been reading Melville's "Typee").


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## ThomasK

I guess it is indeed a whole 'world of ideas' that causes the feeling of guilt. But did those cultures not know (some) fear with regard to their gods - and would never have felt guilty. Yet, don't the idea of sacrifice and 'penitence' suggest some kind of link (*paying [back])* between fear and guilt? This is not a separate thread, I think !

_Do we have a semantic forum around here or do I have to move to the Café for that ? (No, to the University ;-))_


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## indiegrl

> vină, vinovat: definitely Slavic origin. The last word is the predicative adjective form in Russian and, I suppose, also in Ucrainian and in the West Slavic languages (when there still was something like that - as for all I know, in Czech it was quite old-fashioned already in the beginning of the 20th century). Suppose it goes the same way in Bulgarian.


 Knowing Russian helps a lot detecting the Slavisms in Romanian. 
 As for vinovat,vina ,the Romanian Academic Dictionary states it entered directly from Old Church Slavonic , from the word vinovatŭ.


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## ThomasK

I just happened to discover that Nietzsche pointed out this similarity in German ('Schuld/en'): 



> Nietzsche then turns to the concepts of guilt and "bad conscience." Heidentifies a similarity in the German words for "guilt" and"debt," suggesting that, originally, guilt had nothing to do withaccountability or immorality. Punishment was not meted out on the basis ofguilt, but simply as a reprisal.
> 
> If someone failed to fulfill a promise or payoff a loan they were in debt to the person they let down, and that debt couldbe balanced by submitting to punishment, cruelty, or torture. If a creditorcould not have the pleasure of getting his money back, he could have the pleasureof harming his debtor. The memory that is necessary to our ability to makepromises was thus "burned in": all sorts of cruelty and punishmentensured that we would not forget our promise the next time.



Not sure if it is correct, but ...


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## mataripis

Not in Tagalog.  1.) Debt= Utang   2.) Guilt= kaba(h)   3.) Excuse=  paumanhin/pasintabi'   but if i want words that sounds related. We have  1.) Hiram (debt)    2.) Guilt ( alam ) in direct  (alam= know/aware)      3.)  paalam= saying good bye as an excuse.


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## ThomasK

Could 'hiram' be related to 'haram' ? I don't see what you mean by the excuse (trying to escape from certain obligations ?).


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## mataripis

ThomasK said:


> Could 'hiram' be related to 'haram' ? I don't see what you mean by the excuse (trying to escape from certain obligations ?).


  Hiram means "borrow" and there is a time to replace or return it in specific time or date. I am not familiar with haram (Bahasa or arab?)
. In this case , excuse is to escape usually expressed as " may kausap ako, i have to go ( i have appointment  , palabas ako). This is not the usual case to express the three words in Tagalog but they exist too not too frequent in everyday grammars/conversations.


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## ThomasK

'Hiram' reminded me of 'haram', forbidden...


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## mataripis

ThomasK said:


> 'Hiram' reminded me of 'haram', forbidden...


I see. There is a Tagalog word  "HARANG" that has the meanings 1.) An object that serve as blockage.     2.) A sign that prohibit anyone to come closer or to pass through  3.) as a verb  "Humaharang"  or Harangan      = not allowing/not allowed.


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## Freddi

I just found out that the words for "debt" and "guilt" are the same in Hebrew: chayav (transliteration).  The word for "weight" is not cognate: mishkal.


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## Demiurg

Arrius said:


> The American version of the Lord's Prayer, "Forgive us our *debts* as we forgive our debtors" also refers to offences and atonement, the word_ trespasses_ being used instead in England.


In German, the Luther translation speaks of "Schuld" (_guilt_) and "Schuld*igern*" (outdated agent noun):


> Und vergib uns unsere Schuld, wie wir unseren Schuldigern vergeben.


while the (Swiss) Schlachter translation uses "Schuld*en*" (_debts_) and "Schuld*nern*" (_debtors_):


> Und vergib uns unsere Schulden, wie auch wir vergeben unseren Schuldnern.


I've always associated this verse with guilt and not with debt.


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## momai

In Arabic you have three different roots:
Debt: sing. dayn دين pl. duyuun ديون
Guilt: sing. thanb ذنب pl. thunuub ذنوب
Excuse: sing. 3uthr عذر pl. '3thaar أعذار


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## ansjovis

More relations between Dutch/German and English.

UK treasury bonds/obligations are called *gilts* related to guilt and being guilty of debt.
Guilt is related to *guildan* meaning to pay off debt. 
Guildan is likely related to *golden* as one would pay off debt in *gold*.
Dutch currency was called *gulden*, which was issued originally as a golden coin.
And *geld* is likely derived from gold meaning money.
IMO likely all related!


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## ThomasK

I am afraid eetymonline.com does not confirm that; 
- gold < IE shine 
- geld < gelden > betalen


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## ansjovis

ThomasK said:


> I am afraid eetymonline.com does not confirm that;
> - gold < IE shine
> - geld < gelden > betalen



Yes it does:

geld | Search Online Etymology Dictionary

gelt (n.)"money," 1520s, from German and Dutch gelt "gold, money," from Proto-Germanic *geldam "payment" (see geld (n.)). In some later uses from Yiddish gelt, from Old High German gelt "payment, reward," from the same source.

I'm also quite sure the gulden is derived from gold. What be weird if it wouldn't.


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## ThomasK

Aaarrrrhhh, you're right, I was too quick as for _*geld*_!!! But as for _*gold *_and _*gulde*n_: the link is quite OK, but they refer to IE *ghel-, shining, so I read. I always assumed there must be a link between _geld _and _gold/ goud_, but not, I discovered some years ago...


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## marco_2

Arrius said:


> A cognate of *guilt* does exist in German, connected with the idea of making amends: from the verb *gelten/ es gilt* (_to be valid_), we get* entgelten*,(_to recompense /reward/ to pay someone for something_)), *gelten *itself in Middle High German amd _geltan_ in Old High German having formerly had the meaning of to compensate, to indemnify. These words are in the same family as German _das Geld_ (money), and another cognate,*ontgelden* in Dutch, also means to have to pay for something.
> 
> The American version of the Lord's Prayer, "Forgive us our *debts* as we forgive our debtors" also  refers to offences and atonement, the word_ trespasses_ being used instead in England.


The same was in Old Church Slavonic translation: _I ostavi nam dolgi naša - _here the noun _dolg _meant 'guilt', whereas in contemporary Slavic languages _(долг, дълг, dług _etc._) _means 'debt'.


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