# Subjunctive:  Useful background information on subjunctive.



## VenusEnvy

I was thinking about the use of subjunctive in Spanish, and its translation into English.

For example,
Spanish: Quiero que sea más generoso.
English Literal translation: I want that you be more generous.
English Paraphrase: I want you to be  more generous.

Spanish: Prefiero que sea más generoso.
English: I prefer that you be  more generous.

This difference (or discrepency) is making me a little batty (there's another expression for crazy, Artrella!). What would native English-speakers have to say about this? How would YOU command using "prefer"? Should I be saying, "I prefer you to be  more generous?" 

What say you?    

(I hope this is clear.)

P.S. I wasn't quite sure where to post this question.


----------



## Eddie

Hi, Venus!

First of all, I wouldn't command anyone to do or say anything. But I would suggest that the more idiomatic, and consequentially, more normal expression in English would be _I want/prefer you to be..._. Literal translations from a foreign language into English seldom work.

From a grammatical point of view, the subjunctive mood does not exist in English since there is no change in the root (or radical) form of the verb. Substituting the base form (infinitive) of the verb for the inflected form does not constitute a subjunctive, as is the case with European languages.

Ed


----------



## Outsider

Eddie said:
			
		

> From a grammatical point of view, the subjunctive mood does not exist in English since there is no change in the root (or radical) form of the verb.


I disagree.

verb to talk

present indicative:

I            talk
you        talk
he/she/it talks
we         talk
you        talk
they       talk

present subjunctive:

(that) I            talk
(that) you        talk
(that) *he/she/it talk*
(that) we         talk
(that) you        talk
(that) they       talk

Even in regular verbs, there is a small difference between the subjunctive and the indicative.


----------



## Outsider

VenusEnvy said:
			
		

> I was thinking about the use of subjunctive in Spanish, and its translation into English.
> 
> For example,
> Spanish: Quiero que sea más generoso.
> English Literal translation: I want that you be more generous. (1)
> English Paraphrase: I want you to be  more generous. (2)


If I'm not mistaken, both (1) and (2) exist in English, except that (1) is a bit more old-fashioned/literary.



			
				VenusEnvy said:
			
		

> Spanish: Prefiero que sea más generoso.
> English: I prefer that you be  more generous.


Or "I prefer *you* to be more generous"...


----------



## VenusEnvy

Eddie said:
			
		

> First of all, I wouldn't command anyone to do or say anything.


Perhaps "command" was a harsh choice of words. I wanted to convey the idea of a wish/desire/command/request. Learning different languages, the imperative (or, in this case perhaps subjunctive) is sometimes referred to as the "command form of the verb". 
Perhaps I should have used any of these other words:
Beckon, compel, direct, impose, instruct, oblige, ordain, order, request, summon, tell, etc.




			
				Eddie said:
			
		

> But I would suggest that the more idiomatic, and consequentially, more normal expression in English would be _I want/prefer you to be..._.


This exactly was my question.
How would you impose a request using the words "want" and "prefer". I tend to use two different ways.
"I want you to be generous."
"I prefer that you be generous."




			
				Eddie said:
			
		

> Literal translations from a foreign language into English seldom work. From a grammatical point of view, the subjunctive mood does not exist in English since there is no change in the root (or radical) form of the verb.


I realize this fully. But, these arguments make me want to find exceptions. It's a fault of mine. Always looking for an argument.


----------



## Artrella

VenusEnvy said:
			
		

> I was thinking about the use of subjunctive in Spanish, and its translation into English.
> 
> For example,
> Spanish: Quiero que sea más generoso.
> English Literal translation: I want that you be more generous.
> English Paraphrase: I want you to be  more generous.
> 
> Spanish: Prefiero que sea más generoso.
> English: I prefer that you be  more generous.
> 
> This difference (or discrepency) is making me a little batty (there's another expression for crazy, Artrella!). What would native English-speakers have to say about this? How would YOU command using "prefer"? Should I be saying, "I prefer you to be  more generous?"
> 
> What say you?
> 
> (I hope this is clear.)
> 
> P.S. I wasn't quite sure where to post this question.





Hi Venus (and thx for the word  )

I think it is possible for you to say "I should prefer you to be more generous"
"I would prefer that you be more generous"(formal) "Would you prefer me to be more generous?"

Anyway the subjunctive in English is not very much used and it is considered formal.

Waiting for the natives' explanations...


----------



## VenusEnvy

Outsider said:
			
		

> If I'm not mistaken, both (1) and (2) exist in English, except that (1) is a bit more old-fashioned/literary.


This is where my curiosty was spurred. Are they both valid?


However, my CONFUSION was spurred by the fact that I only use construction #1 with the word "prefer".


----------



## Artrella

VenusEnvy said:
			
		

> This is where my curiosty was spurred. Are they both valid?
> 
> 
> However, my CONFUSION was spurred by the fact that I only use construction #1 with the word "prefer".





I couldn't find that verb pattern in my Grammar books, it does not sound odd to me, because "you want something" >>> something = "that you be more generous."
But I cannot say it is correct, though.


----------



## te gato

Artrella said:
			
		

> Waiting for the natives' explanations...


Good morning;
As one of the natives'  
First of all, you can say all of them...
"I prefer that you be more generous" --more Formal..Maybe to be used more in formal letters..
"I prefer you to be more generous"--little less Formal..
"I would prefer that you be more generous"--More serious..stressing the point more...
"I want you to be more generous"--less formal..
These are all something that "you want"--could you (please)..would you (please)..
So again..it depends on how and where you would be using them..
hope I didn't confuse.. 
te gato


----------



## Outsider

But what about "I want *that* you be more generous"?


----------



## te gato

Outsider said:
			
		

> But what about "I want *that* you be more generous"?


Hi Outsider;
It would be the same as I prefer that...
*Main Entry:* *want*1
*Part of Speech:* _verb_
*Definition:* desire
*Synonyms:* ache, aspire, be greedy, choose, covet, crave, cream for, desiderate, die over, fancy, hanker, have ambition, hunger, incline toward, itch for, lech for, long, lust, need, pine, prefer, require, spoil for, thirst, wish, yearn, yen for


te gato


----------



## Artrella

Yes tg! But why did I never come across such pattern?  "I want that you be more friendly".  Do natives use this construction some time?  If so, when, under what circumstances?

Thx


----------



## cuchuflete

I cannot give you a reason from a grammar rule book, but I would never use this construction, nor have I ever heard it used by a native speaker.

It sounds artificial and stilted.  One might say, " I want that you *should *be more generous."  This also sounds quite unnatural, but is less jarring than your example.

regards,
Cuchuflete



			
				Outsider said:
			
		

> But what about "I want *that* you be more generous"?


----------



## Benjy

huar! eddie.. clicky

the subjunctive IS a mood in english, and is still used, just not always in the same cases as in most other languages, i'll give you *the* classic example of the subjuntive in english:

if i WERE you... and NOT if i was you (imperfect ind.)

if you want more infos i suggest a quick stop off at google  [this page gives a ton of examples]

another quickie.. my brother learnt this stuff as a royal naval officer (lol) in his writting class: 

i recommend that he be promoted to..


----------



## Bambino

Outsider said:
			
		

> But what about "I want *that* you be more generous"?


Hey Outsider and all others, how goes it?
No, that doesn’t sound right. I have never heard or seen it written that way. This sounds better: “I want you to be more generous”.  
If you want to use “that you be” instead of “you to be”, then you would have to change the “be” to “are” or “will be”. Even then, in this instance, it would still sound incorrect: 
“I want that you are more generous”.  
“I want that you will be more generous”.  
Change the _want_ to _hope_ and it sounds better: 
“I hope that you are more generous”.  
“I hope that you will be more generous”.  
But still, "I hope that you _be_ more generous" sounds odd.

This is just from experience living in many parts of the US. I have no rules of grammar to back it up with.  

Ciao, Bambino


----------



## VenusEnvy

I hope that I haven't been saying it wrong all along.   This would sadden the perfectionist in me deeply . . .  

While I whole-heartedly embrace all of your opinions, is there a grammarian here (or an average person with a credible grammar book) who can close this case?


----------



## te gato

Artrella said:
			
		

> Yes tg! But why did I never come across such pattern? "I want that you be more friendly". Do natives use this construction some time? If so, when, under what circumstances?
> 
> Thx


Art;
It is because we don't say it..Like Cuchu said..you have to add another word to it...it is not wrong to say it..if we were back in Shakespearian days 

I guess (in my opinion) the only way I can describe the art of speaking "English" (and staying within the confines of the "Rules")would be..
"LESS IS MORE"...If you can get the point across by using fewer words..

I want that you be more friendly...Could you be more friendly
I want that you do your homework...please do your homework

I hope I have not confused the issue more....
te gato


----------



## Eddie

You just made my point, Outsider. The base form (also called the infinitive form) is talk. There is no change in the spelling of the root form that you find in French, Spanish, Italian, etc.

Ed


----------



## Eddie

Venus, my love. The use of the pronoun that in that type of sentence is restricted to a few verbs: insist, prefer, et al.

Example: _Would you like me to go or to stay? - I'd prefer that you stay._

I want that you be more generous, while understandable, is compeltely ridiculous.
None but the most uneducated person would speak like that.

Apart from a few sentences like that, anglophones prefer to use the infinitive or omit the pronoun:

I want you to go.
She's begging you to leave her alone.
They'd rather we stay.

Got it?


----------



## Benjy

Eddie said:
			
		

> You just made my point, Outsider. The base form (also called the infinitive form) is talk. There is no change in the spelling of the root form that you find in French, Spanish, Italian, etc.
> 
> Ed


 \o/ o\ o/ *waves frantically*

did you read my post? the subjunctive is a  mood.... and while it usues forms that are present in the indicative as well that doesn't stop it from being the subjunctive. take regular er verbs in french.. e.g. pour qu'il parle (subj.) il parle (ind.)


----------



## Outsider

Eddie said:
			
		

> From a grammatical point of view, *the subjunctive mood does not exist in English* since there is no change in the root (or radical) form of the verb. Substituting the base form (infinitive) of the verb for the inflected form does not constitute a subjunctive, as is the case with European languages.


What about the *past* subjunctive tense?

verb "to be"

simple past, indicative:

I was 
you were 
he/she/it was
we were
you were
they were

simple past, subjunctive:

(if) *I were*
(if) you were
(if) *he/she/it were*
(if) we were
(if) you were
(if) they were

"Were" is definitely not the infinitive, "be".

You do have a point, though, about the present subjunctive, which was the relevant tense for the initial question in this thread. I can see how its existence can be questioned.


----------



## Eddie

Benjy, attaching a label to something doesn't make it so. A can of beans with a peas label doesn't change the contents..


----------



## Eddie

Outsider, using were in that type of syntactic structure is merely substituting the preterite form of _be_. There is still no change of root as in the case of French: _Il faut que tu obéisses à tes parents_.


----------



## Eddie

Question answered in a previous thread, Benjy.


----------



## Outsider

Eddie said:
			
		

> Outsider, using were in that type of syntactic structure is merely substituting the preterite form of _be_.



The preterite form for a different person.

Would you also say that English has no imperative mood, then?


----------



## Benjy

Eddie said:
			
		

> Benjy, attaching a label to something doesn't make it so. A can of beans with a peas label doesn't change the contents..


rolfling lollerskates lol. i guess you didn't read the web pages i linked then. but i have a question. and what you just said implies a lot of really funny things like "who has the right to name anything anything being as their giving a label to it doesn't actually mean that it it's that"

who said peas were peas in the first place? i think they were called carrots! down with dictionaries/grammar!

ps.. this whole thing originally started because you said that the subjuctive didnt exist in english.. it does =[

examples....
She wishes she were not here.
The modern usage She wishes she was is incorrect.

He wishes he had a hammer.
Without the subjuctive, this would be constructed in the indicative as He wishes he has a hammer, but the indicative is incorrect.

I wish I knew.
This formulation is distinctly different the following indicative statement: I wish I know (which makes no sense). The indicative is inappropriate here.


----------



## VenusEnvy

Eddie said:
			
		

> The use of the pronoun that in that type of sentence is restricted to a few verbs: insist, prefer, et al.



This was my original question. If you'll remember, I used that  when "prefering", but not when "wanting". So, I suppose you and I are in accordance (on this one issue). Can you give me more verbs (besides prefer and insist) that would be able to properly utilize that  in this way?

EDIT: I found another: request
"He requested that I go  with him."  

It's not my intention to take away what credit you think your word has, but can cite a source  from which you obtained this information? Perhaps a book, or website?


----------



## Eddie

Venus, I envy you. (Just playing!)

What you're asking about is permitted in some cases, but not in others. I know that's not of much help, but the preceding very informative threads should give you an idea of its use or non-use, whatever grammatical label you want to attach to it.

Listen to how educated (that sounds so snobbish) English-speaking people converse with each other, and do a lot of reading. You'll get the hang of it.


----------



## VenusEnvy

Eddie said:
			
		

> Venus, I envy you. (Just playing!)
> 
> What you're asking about is permitted in some cases, but not in others. I know that's not of much help, but the preceding very informative threads should give you an idea of its use or non-use, whatever grammatical label you want to attach to it.
> 
> Listen to how educated (that sounds so snobbish) English-speaking people converse with one another, and do a lot of reading. You'll get the hang of it.



Hope you don't mind a correction, Eddie. It's only MHO
And, yes, you may envy me.


----------



## Eddie

What's MHO?


----------



## VenusEnvy

Eddie said:
			
		

> What's MHO?



Sorry to use acronyms. 
My Humble Opinion
Often you'll see: IMHO

Get it?


----------



## Eddie

Got it! And thanks for the info.


----------



## fetchezlavache

it's not a matter of _labels_, it's a matter of grammatic rules. subjunctive does exist in english, and i suggest that you re-read your school books eddie


----------



## Eddie

Yes, ma'am!


----------



## fetchezlavache

heheheh....


----------



## Eddie

No hard feelings, Fetchez. I'm glad to see your name in the forum. I was beginning to wonder what happened to you.


----------



## gaer

Outsider said:
			
		

> But what about "I want *that* you be more generous"?


It's wrong, but I can't tell you why.

"I would prefer that you…" is correct.
"I want that you…" is not possible.

I think you have raised a really tough question, which seems to be partially answered.

Now, how does this sound:

"Would that you were here…" I don't think I have it quite right, but I THINK a construction much like that was used in the time of Shakespeare. Can any one come up with an example using that construction, from an actual source? It would be old—or in a fantasy book!

Gaer


----------



## gaer

VenusEnvy said:
			
		

> Hope you don't mind a correction, Eddie. It's only MHO
> And, yes, you may envy me.


I disagree with your correction. Let me explain why. I found this in Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage. I'm summing up, because the article is long:

This is about the prescriptive rule that _each other_ is to be restricted to two and _one another_ is to be restricted to more than two:

"…evidence in the OED shows that the restriction has never existed in practice; the interchangeablity of _each other_ and _one another_ had been established centuries before Ussher or somebody even earlier thought up the rule."

In other words, a grammarian (George N. Ussher) made up the rule in 1785. People assumed his rule was based on more than his own opinion, and it wasn't.  

Gaer


----------



## VenusEnvy

Thanks, Gaer, for that interesting tid-bit.    From what I've read, there is quite some debate over its usage.

I will retract the correction. But, I can't bring myself to change this habit in my life outside of WR. Call it conditioning if you will. I just tried to say it aloud here, in front of my comp, and I swear I heard the echoing of my elementary school grammar teacher in my head!


----------



## Nick

"I prefer you to be more generous." sounds odd to me.

"I prefer that you be more generous." is acceptable.
"I would prefer it if you were more generous." is better, though.


----------



## gaer

VenusEnvy said:
			
		

> Thanks, Gaer, for that interesting tid-bit.  From what I've read, there is quite some debate over its usage.
> 
> I will retract the correction. But, I can't bring myself to change this habit in my life outside of WR. Call it conditioning if you will. I just tried to say it aloud here, in front of my comp, and I swear I heard the echoing of my elementary school grammar teacher in my head!


Ah, but where do these teachers GET these rules from???

Now, someone will probably wonk me for using more than one explanation point. 

The same thing, by the way, is true of the "rule" concerning "fewer" and "less". There too a grammarian expressed a preference, nothing more, then other grammarians turned his preference into a rule, which is why you will find fine authors ignoring it to this very day. 

It seems that authors have been at war with grammarians for many centuries, and I believe the authors are winning. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Gaer


----------



## Benjy

gaer said:
			
		

> It's wrong, but I can't tell you why.
> 
> "I would prefer that you…" is correct.
> "I want that you…" is not possible.
> 
> I think you have raised a really tough question, which seems to be partially answered.
> 
> Now, how does this sound:
> 
> "Would that you were here…" I don't think I have it quite right, but I THINK a construction much like that was used in the time of Shakespeare. Can any one come up with an example using that construction, from an actual source? It would be old—or in a fantasy book!
> 
> Gaer



just for you gaer: clicky


----------



## gaer

Benjy said:
			
		

> just for you gaer: clicky


Thanks Ben!!!


----------



## lsp

VenusEnvy said:
			
		

> I was thinking about the use of subjunctive in Spanish, and its translation into English.
> 
> For example,
> Spanish: Quiero que sea más generoso.
> English Literal translation: I want that you be more generous.
> English Paraphrase: I want you to be  more generous.
> 
> Spanish: Prefiero que sea más generoso.
> English: I prefer that you be  more generous.
> 
> This difference (or discrepency) is making me a little batty (there's another expression for crazy, Artrella!). What would native English-speakers have to say about this? How would YOU command using "prefer"? Should I be saying, "I prefer you to be  more generous?"
> 
> What say you?
> 
> (I hope this is clear.)
> 
> P.S. I wasn't quite sure where to post this question.


Wouldn't you just say (using the subjunctive), "I wish you were more generous" ??


----------



## Benjy

good page on the subjunctive (the wikipedia entry) here


----------



## leenico

*From Warriner's english grammar & composition.*

"The only common uses of the _subjunctive mood_ in modern English are to express a condition contrary to fact and to express a wish. These usages occur principally in written English and usually apply to only one verb form-_were_."


----------



## gaer

leenico said:
			
		

> *From Warriner's english grammar & composition.*
> 
> "The only common uses of the _subjunctive mood_ in modern English are to express a condition contrary to fact and to express a wish. These usages occur principally in written English and usually apply to only one verb form-_were_."


As far as I'm concerned, both the links Benjy has provided (in two different messages) show clearly that *Warriner's english grammar & composition *is inaccurate on this point. 

From one site Benji suggested:

The subjunctive mood is used in a number of fossil phrases that are perhaps no longer felt as inflecting the verb in a particular way:

as it were. . . 
(God) bless you! 
come what may. . . 
(God) damn it! 
Far be it from me. . . 
God save our gracious Queen; long live our noble Queen. . . 
so be it 
suffice it to say. . . 

Gaer


----------



## lsp

I don't think all of those phrases are on their last breaths. Thousands of postcards are still sent ever day that say, "Wish you were here," and "Let it Be" is fairly modern.


----------



## gaer

lsp said:
			
		

> I don't think all of those phrases are on their last breaths. Thousands of postcards are still sent ever day that say, "Wish you were here," and "Let it Be" is fairly modern.


That was my point, and I believe it was the point of others.

"Be that as it may", I DO understand what other people mean when they say sunjunctive is much less used and needed in English than in other languages! 

Gaer


----------



## VenusEnvy

I am sorry to bring up old news, but my original post did ask a question.
Why is it ok to say, "I prefer that you be  generous", but not "I want that you be  generous"? It was mentioned by Eddie that some verbs of request (prefer, insist, request) fit this format, while others simply don't.

I prefer _that you be _ . . .
I insist _that you be _ . . .
I request _that you be _ . . . 
I demand _that you be _ . . .

I want that _you to be _ . . .
I would like that _you to be _ . . .

Others have mentioned that they don't use original structure (no matter what verb), and think it sounds awkward. Many of the comments made were those of opinion, backed only by experience of having spoken English. 

I apologize for perhaps "beating a sick horse to death", but this question still lingers . . .


----------



## Benjy

in all seriousness though, i have looked, but i can't find anything on the web and all the language books that i have nothing to do with english


----------



## garryknight

VenusEnvy said:
			
		

> Why is it ok to say, "I prefer that you be  generous", but not "I want that you be  generous"?



We did a similar thread back in November. I said at that time:


			
				garryknight said:
			
		

> Sorry, everyone, but I disagree: "I want that you go there" is perfectly grammatically correct, it's simply very rarely said. Consider:
> A: I want you to go there.
> B: What is it you want?
> A: That you go there.
> It's one of those rare uses of the English subjunctive. We studied examples like this in my English grammar classes at school hundreds of years (!) ago. Also, on his Advanced Spanish Course, Michel Thomas uses this phrase while explaining the use of the Spanish subjunctive to two educated people, one American the other English. Both of them understand and accept this construct without batting an eyelid.
> 
> So, in my humble opinion, Henrik's profe is right, although it is something of an anachronism.



Althought the general opinion at that time was that this construction isn't grammatically correct, I still hold that it was correct at some time in the past.


----------



## VenusEnvy

Garry: ::sigh of relief:: Thank you for the confirmation, and the link.

Ben: lol


----------



## Panpan

If I understand correctly, where the subjunctive is used in Spanish, English would use the passive mood.

So I would translate this as 'it is my wish that you be more generous'.

Hope this helps

Panpan


----------



## gaer

garryknight said:
			
		

> We did a similar thread back in November. I said at that time:


(I read the whole thread)


> Althought the general opinion at that time was that this construction isn't grammatically correct, I still hold that it was correct at some time in the past.


I'll keep my eye out for it when reading books from earlier centuries. The gut feeling of most people here and in the previous thread seems to be that it just doesn't sound right. So until I see it, used by an author or writer I respect, I'll continue to think that "I want that" sounds very odd, even it it 100% correct grammatically. 

Gaer


----------



## garryknight

gaer said:
			
		

> I'll continue to think that "I want that" sounds very odd, even it it 100% correct grammatically.



Oh, I agree that it sounds odd, at least, it does these days. But the last thing *I want* is *that* you simply take my word for it.


----------



## Artrella

garryknight said:
			
		

> Oh, I agree that it sounds odd, at least, it does these days. But the last thing *I want* is *that* you simply take my word for it.




Agree with Garry ... oh, oh!! but I also agree with Gaer.  *I want that * is not correct.  And Garry.... you changed it.... your is an emphatic sentence... Would it be all right if you said " I don't want that you simply take my word for it"  or should it be " I don't want you simply to take my word for it "?


----------



## gaer

garryknight said:
			
		

> Oh, I agree that it sounds odd, at least, it does these days. But the last thing *I want* is *that* you simply take my word for it.


You cheated.  No fair inserting "is". It changes everything.


----------



## Panpan

But you could say " it is certainly not my desire that you simply take my word for it".
Panpan


----------



## Artrella

Panpan said:
			
		

> But you could say " it is certainly not my desire that you simply take my word for it".
> Panpan




Ok, Panpan... but again we are not using "want".  So "want that" is not correct, is it?


----------



## garryknight

Artrella said:
			
		

> Would it be all right if you said " I don't want that you simply take my word for it" or should it be " I don't want you simply to take my word for it "?



I'd say the latter, myself. My original point was simply that the former used to be grammatically correct even if it isn't considered to be so nowadays.


----------



## garryknight

gaer said:
			
		

> You cheated.  No fair inserting "is". It changes everything.



Damn! Now how did *that* get in there...?


----------



## gaer

garryknight said:
			
		

> Damn! Now how did *that* get in there...?


 
Veddy, veddy sneaky. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Have you notice that just when you're sure something DOES sound okay, because you've thought about it too much, you suddenly realize that in every day life it sounds weird? Of just after you've told someone, from another country, "No, we wouldn't say that," suddenly you hear someone say it and it sounds perfectly fine?

To me the whole idea of what sounds smooth (or not) shifts when I'm thinking in more than one language. For instance, if I have been thinking in German, I may suddenly try to use a German expression, without realizing it is totally weird sounding in English. On the other hand, I will avoid something, thinking it is not used here because it DOES sound too German.

One time a lady from Germany, who spoke English with no trace of a German language, was sick of talking about something and said: "Let's put this horse to bed." 

Gaer


----------



## garryknight

gaer said:
			
		

> Have you notice that just when you're sure something DOES sound okay, because you've thought about it too much, you suddenly realize that in every day life it sounds weird?



There have been times when I've been looking for a word in the dictionary and by the time I find the page it should be on it sounds so strange in my own head that I'm not even sure if the word actually exists at all. Then I find it on the page and it even _looks_ weird.


----------



## VenusEnvy

gaer said:
			
		

> was sick of talking about something and said: "Let's put this horse to bed."



Instead of beating it when it's dead?


----------



## gaer

garryknight said:
			
		

> There have been times when I've been looking for a word in the dictionary and by the time I find the page it should be on it sounds so strange in my own head that I'm not even sure if the word actually exists at all. Then I find it on the page and it even _looks_ weird.


 
Yes. So true. And I have the additional problem of not being a good speller, so if I want to write anything when I care about being correct, I need to use a program with a spellchecker. So often I stare at the right answer, in a list, knowing that it's the only possible right answer, but it looks wrong.


----------



## gaer

VenusEnvy said:
			
		

> Instead of beating it when it's dead?


 
Right. The lady mixed together to saying:

Let's put this matter to bed. Let's not beat a dead horse. But as soon as she said it, the only thing I could think of is an awful scene in "The Godfather" when a guy wakes up with a bloody horse's head next to him, in his bed.


----------



## Panpan

Even if it is not gramatically correct, it is still used, particularly here in the Uk by people of Jewish descent.
E.g. I recently heard 'You want that I should freeze to death out here?'  
To which the reply could have been (although it wasn't) 'Yes, I want that you should freeze to death!'

I agree this is not used in mainstream English.  My guess is that is how it would be said in Yiddish and not because of a surviving pattern of English speech.

Panpan


----------



## charmedboi82

I want you to be...
I prefer you be.... the 'to' sounds wrong in this sentence.

I also like the supposedly older style of 'that you be'.  Actually, that's probably why I see prefer as not being able to precede 'to'.


----------



## gaer

Panpan said:
			
		

> Even if it is not gramatically correct, it is still used, particularly here in the Uk by people of Jewish descent.
> E.g. I recently heard 'You want that I should freeze to death out here?'
> To which the reply could have been (although it wasn't) 'Yes, I want that you should freeze to death!'
> 
> I agree this is not used in mainstream English. My guess is that is how it would be said in Yiddish and not because of a surviving pattern of English speech.
> 
> Panpan


Panpan, look at this:

"Ich will, dass du…"
Results 1 - 10 of about 10,700 for
Meaning, literally: I want THAT you…

Since Yiddish owes so much to German, it's obvious why you have heard this phrase. 

Gaer


----------



## mylam

For more examples of "VERB that ...", try the King James Bible.  I found 7 instances of "would that" (we would that thou shouldest, for example), and 5 instances of "will that". If you can get past the thee's, thou's and -est's, the grammar is quite interesting. It's helped me a lot with my Spanish. (Vocabulary too, for that matter!)


----------



## gaer

mylam said:
			
		

> For more examples of "VERB that ...", try the King James Bible. I found 7 instances of "would that" (we would that thou shouldest, for example), and 5 instances of "will that". If you can get past the thee's, thou's and -est's, the grammar is quite interesting. It's helped me a lot with my Spanish. (Vocabulary too, for that matter!)


I was sure I had seen that. But again, remember how much closer English was to German then!

Gaer


----------

