# Language Learning: Will you ever sound and be accepted like a native?



## Whodunit

A friend of mine and I have had a little discussion about an foreigner's accuracy of a language he wants to speak fluently and most naturally. She insisted upon her opinion that you will never speak like a real native English speaker if you're Spanish or German or the like. I corrected her and insisted that if you really make efforts and occupy with the language and its dialects you will sound like a native someday.

Another problem is if you will ever be accepted like a native speaker if everyone knows that you aren't one. I mean everyone accepts me as a native German speaker, since I think in that language and can express myself best in it. If I went to an English speaking country today, no one would accept me as a native, since I have a German dialect and my English is not perfect. However, if I lived for more than one or two years in an English country, such as Australia, the US, UK, or Canada, I would adjust my dialect to the vicinity and area. Will I be accepted as a native then?

I don't speak about people who emigrated from their country and don't speak their original language anymore, such as Alanis Morrissette, who is born in near Cologne, Germany, but don't know German anymore. 

Thank you for all your opinion you share with me.


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## modgirl

There's one thing a nonnative (sic -- it is a correct spelling!) in any language will never have: a childhood speaking that language. No matter how fluent a person may become, there will always be just a little something "missing" from his vocabulary that can only be obtained from someone growing up hearing the language.

You asked, "However, if I lived for more than one or two years in an English country, such as Australia, the US, UK, or Canada, I would adjust my dialect to the vicinity and area. Will I be accepted as a native then?"

This is just my opinion, but no, not really.  I don't mean that as an insult!  This is difficult to describe, but there are certain nuances that develop over a long period of time.  These nuances seem to be inherent to someone who grew up in that culture.  Even someone who immigrated at age 20 and lived in the new country for another 20 years is just missing these nuances.  I'll think a bit and try to describe them better a bit later.


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## cochagua

I agree with Modgirl. I've been living abroad several years, and I think I will always be a foreigner. The question about being accepted, sometimes it's more difficult, sometimes it's easier.
This doesn't mean anything else, I even like it. Even in a country, you feel different accents, and different ways to say one thing. 
Cheers


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## BasedowLives

there are people who live in the USA for YEARS of their lives and still have accents.

i think in order to be free of that, you have to go to school with english speakers at a young age.

example:  my friend is from an asian country, but didn't take ESL classes with other foreign students, he took classes with americans.  he has NO accent.

another friend form an asian country took classes with all foreign students, and has retained his accent even though he's been living here for nearly 12 years.


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## ILT

Well, I can only speak for my own experience. My native language is Spanish, and I began learning English when I was young.  I have never lived in the US, but I cross the border regularly to go shopping or on vacation, and yes, I have been mistaken for a native English speaker by the officers at the border as well as at stores.  I have even been asked: "Why are you holding a Mexican passport?"  - Because I'm Mexican, is usually my answer   The same sales person who addresses my husband in Spanish will sometimes address me in English (I speak English to my son).

I have a Texan accent, so maybe that helps.  Of course I still make mistakes, just as I make mistakes in Spanish.  As a teacher said once:  we are not 100% proficient in our language, why would we say we are in a foreign one?


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## astronauta

I think you may sound like a native with enough practice and effort. But not everyone is good at it.

To me, there are to kinds of immigrants or visitors: the ones that belong to the local corresponding ethnic club and only befriend people of their own culture and never adapt and the ones that put all their efforts to adopt the culture and mingle with natives. I think the latter kind has substantially more chances of being accepted.

One more thing, you will always stand out no matter what you do because  people ALWAYS ask you within the first few questions from meeting you "where are you from?" there is nothing wrong with that, but humans do this all the time in order to cubby-hole people in their memory; therefore you will always be Astronauta the Spaniard, Astronauta the Mexican, and so on... This also happens when you are introduced to a crowd: this is my friend Astronauta, she is from Spain, or speaks Spanish... then the cubby-holing is complete.


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## modgirl

astronauta vegetariana said:
			
		

> people ALWAYS ask you within the first few questions from meeting you "where are you from?" there is nothing wrong with that, but humans do this all the time in order to cubby-hole people in their memory; therefore you will always be Astronauta the Spaniard, Astronauta the Mexican, and so on... This also happens when you are introduced to a crowd: this is my friend Astronauta, she is from Spain, or speaks Spanish... then the cubby-holing is complete.


 
Isn't this amazing? I certainly have no problems telling people where I live, in the United States, and which state. However, some Americans feel an innate need to pinpoint the _exact _location. If I say that I'm from a specific state, then I'm asked, "Oh, where?" Then, I'll give a direction (southeast part of the state, or something like that). Then, the person *again* will ask, "Where?" And, the person will keep asking until you satisified his curiosity!

I don't know why, but I've never met any non-Americans who keep asking and asking nearly until the exact house number is given!  I find the behavior rude.

Hint: If someone is not specific, don't keep pushing!


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## redwine

Whodunit said:
			
		

> A friend of mine and I have had a little discussion about an foreigner's accuracy of a language he wants to speak fluently and most naturally. She insisted upon her opinion that you will never speak like a real native English speaker if you're Spanish or German or the like. I corrected her and insisted that if you really make efforts and occupy with the language and its dialects you will sound like a native someday.
> 
> Another problem is if you will ever be accepted like a native speaker if everyone knows that you aren't one. I mean everyone accepts me as a native German speaker, since I think in that language and can express myself best in it. If I went to an English speaking country today, no one would accept me as a native, since I have a German dialect and my English is not perfect. However, if I lived for more than one or two years in an English country, such as Australia, the US, UK, or Canada, I would adjust my dialect to the vicinity and area. Will I be accepted as a native then?
> 
> I don't speak about people who emigrated from their country and don't speak their original language anymore, such as Alanis Morrissette, who is born in near Cologne, Germany, but don't know German anymore.
> 
> Thank you for all your opinion you share with me.



There's one thing that Ive learned from the Japanese: IN ORDER TO BE A PART OF THE TRIBE, YOU NEED TO BE BORN IN THE TRIBE.


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## fenixpollo

I think that people can learn the language to a degree that they can be taken for a native speaker.  While they may be missing some of that childhood experience, it usually doesn't figure into daily interactions.  Plus, they can come to WR and learn all sorts of childhood culture and expressions!

What do you mean when you say "accepted"?  I tend to use big words when I speak English (such as "tend" and "speak") and that sets me apart from the crowd.  I think that some people don't accept me as an 'ordinary American' or as a 'normal chicken' because of the way I speak.

When I lived in Texas, I did not have the local accent.  I was accepted as a native speaker of English, but I was never accepted as a local.  Nobody _ever_ mistook me for Texan, as they did ILT!

My friends and associates accept me for who I am, no matter my accent, and that's all I'm concerned about.  "Being accepted" in a general sense is an impossibility, as far as I'm concerned -- in any country!


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## Alundra

In my opinion, it just depends of each one.

There are people with very many ease (facility?) to speak any language and a great capacity of adaptation and for catching the accent, and there are another ones with less capacity for it. 
I have a cousin whose mother was Andalusian. He never lived in Andalusia, but he has a huge accent Andalusian only for listening to his mother.

In return, there are those who never catch the accent though they live for thirty years abroad.

Please, correct me, I must to have very much mistakes and I want to learn to write better.

Alundra.


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## JLanguage

For many (most?) people, it is very difficult or even impossible to acquire native profiency in a language after puberty even with a lengthy period of immersion.


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## modgirl

Alundra said:
			
		

> In my opinion, it just depends *on *each one.
> 
> There are people with *the ability* to speak any language and *those who can *adapt and *for* catch*ing* (I'd personally say "effect") the accent, and there are* anothers *ones *for whom it is more difficult*. I have a cousin whose mother was Andalusian. He never lived in Andalusia, but he has a huge *accent* Andalusian *accent* only *from* listening to his mother.
> 
> In return, there are those who never catch (again, I'd say either "effect" or "master") the accent though they live*d abroad *for thirty years abroad.
> 
> Please, correct me, I must to have very much *many* mistakes*, *and I want to learn to write better.
> 
> Alundra.


 
How interesting that your cousin has an Andalusian accent simply from listening to his mother!  I'll bet he has an interesting time explaining that one.


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## JLanguage

Whodunit said:
			
		

> A friend of mine and I have had a little discussion argument about an foreigner's accuracy of a language he wants to speak fluently and most naturally regarding whether or not it is possible to attain native profiency in foreign languages. She insisted upon her opinion that you will never speak like a real native English-speaker if you're Spanish or German or the like. I corrected her and insisted that if you really make an efforts and occupy with the language and its dialects you will sound like a native someday.
> 
> Another problem is if you will would ever be accepted like as a native speaker if everyone knows that you aren't one. I mean everyone accepts me as a native German-speaker, since I think in that language and can express myself best in it. If I went to an English-speaking country today, no one would accept me as a native, since I have a German dialect accent and my English is not perfect. However, if I lived for more than one or two years in an English Anglophone country, such as Australia, the US, the UK, or Canada, I would adjust my dialect to the vicinity and area to sound like a native. Will Then would I be accepted as a native then?
> 
> I'm don't speak not talking about people who have emigrated from their country and don't speak their original language anymore, such as Alanis Morrissette, who is born in near Cologne, Germany, but don't doesn't know German anymore.
> 
> Thank you for all your opinion you share with me.
> Thanks in advance for all your input.


The title should read: Will you ever sound and be accepted like a native? 

Just a few minor corrections, Daniel. You are definitely making good progress.


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## Alundra

modgirl said:
			
		

> How interesting that your cousin has an Andalusian accent simply from listening to his mother! I'll bet he has an interesting time explaining that one.


 
Thanks for the corrections, I have to learn much more.  

Alundra.


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## JLanguage

Alundra said:
			
		

> Thanks for the corrections, I have much to learn much more.
> 
> Alundra.


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## Vanda

To sound or not to sound ... 

According to my linguistic teachers one will never sound like a native of another language, unless one has spoken in that language since his/her first to second childhood. Something related to the vocal chords already shaped according to the sounds of the mother tongue...
I think that one can sound quite similar to natives of related languages, for example, I know Brazilians who sound extremely like a French or a Spanish native, but I've never known a Brazilian, no matter how close, how long, how well he/she speaks English sound like a native one. It reminds me the time I went to English and our English teacher at the institution we were studying at used to draw our attention to our Brazilian accent (in a classroom of 15 foreigners, 8 of us were Brazilians) , she said we spoke English so melodiously it sound like we were singing... and that was not the way (poor of her, she really tried!). 
Anyway, when in England I used to try guessing people origin by their accent, I was quite good at discovering French, Italian , Spanish, German and others at the school I was in. And one thing I noticed was that those 
Brazilian I thought had a perfect native-like accent , actually, sounded...
Brazilian. 
On the other hand, an American friend of mine living here for almost 35 years speaks a very accurate Portuguese, but in certain words you can detect a foreign accent (mainly vowels sounds). 
In my opinion, some people can be very accurate in a language he/she 
made effort to learn or is living among natives, but he/she will never 
sound like a native one. Thanks God, because I think it's very charming
speaking a foreign language with a different accent! Here, we love hearing to people speaking Portuguese with foreign accent!
Vive la différence!


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## Edher

modgirl said:
			
		

> This is just my opinion, but no, not really.  I don't mean that as an insult!  This is difficult to describe, but there are certain *nuances* that develop over a long period of time.  These *nuances* seem to be inherent to someone who grew up in that culture.  Even someone who immigrated at age 20 and lived in the new country for another 20 years is just missing these nuances.  I'll think a bit and try to describe them better a bit later.



Saludos,

    After reading a few other threads (including this one), I kept reading about "nuances" of the language. But to me, it sounds quite vague. Can someone please give me a specific example about nuances that native English speakers use?

By the way, I thought Alaniss Morrissete was born in Ottawa, Canada. 

Thanks,
Edher


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## rob.returns

You can't. Because a native is a native. You could imitate some parts but not the whole part.

But its best to imitate the way natives talk. For me its like a high target, atleast if you failed to hit it, you would not be on the bottom of the pit.


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## cirrus

Way back when I was studying linguistics I was told that the gate shuts when you are twelve or so years old.  In other words if you haven't started speaking whatever the target language is by then you will never sound right in that language.  The necessary wiring / ability in the brain - the connections just fall away in the vast majority of people after this age. 

I had Spanish teachers who were certainly fluent in English: they could read, talk, digest and argue as well as persuade, be sarcastic, influence and be funny in English but they would never sound English or even from another English first language country.

Despite years of effort and effectively putting my head in a mixer, I suspect that I am now in the same position with Spanish.  There will always be something that trips me up, a shade I don't see or a nuance that passes me by.  It doesn't mean I can't speak it but it does mean I'll never pass as a native.

What is interesting is looking at friends' children who have been brought up with several languages - I suspect that not all of them will end up sounding like natives.  Even if your dad is a native x language speaker and always speaks to you in his mother tongue and you live in y country you may well perfectly understand what is being said and can communicate effectively but if you personally *prefer* to speak in Spanish, or German or Tagalog ... your x language will never quite convince a native.


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## cirrus

rob.returns said:
			
		

> You can't. Because a native is a native. You could imitate some parts but not the whole part.
> 
> But its best to imitate the way natives talk. For me its like a high target, atleast if you failed to hit it, you would not be on the bottom of the pit.


 
So it's like trying not to squeeze the toothpaste tube in the middle - something you try not to do but don't always achieve?


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## JLanguage

rob.returns said:
			
		

> You can't. Because a native is a native. You could imitate some parts but not the whole part.


 
Not true, it is certainly* possible* to attain native profiency in a foreign language, but this very rarely occurs. More often learners may come close, but still have varying degrees of accents even if they master the other aspects of the language. Also, even learners who have attained high profiency in a foreign language will still make the occasional mistake, either in speech or in writing or both.


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## modgirl

Edher said:
			
		

> After reading a few other threads (including this one), I kept reading about "nuances" of the language. But to me, it sounds quite vague. Can someone please give me a specific example about nuances that native English speakers use?


 
That is such an excellent question!  And I desperately want to answer it, but it is difficult.  Often times, in the English language forum, someone will ask about the difference in usage between two very, very similar words.  And we give examples.  But then, someone will give an example that is an exception to the rule.  (And, of course I can't think of any great examples right now)  But, when someone knows those rare "exceptions to the rule" it usually sets him apart as a native.


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## mari.kit

heloo!

to answer the question.. I think if i have the chance to live in their country and with the native speakers.. there will be some improvement with my accent..coz i can be able to adopt/imitate the way they speak.. but to be accepted like a native.. i guess, it will still take a lot of  time coz there are cultures that's different from mine and that i still have to learn it..


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## rob.returns

I disagree. Somewhere, somehow, a certain word will trip you and there you go..."YOu are not Spanish, are you"?

I find the post Jlanguage contradictory...
1. Not true, it is certainly* possible* to attain native profiency 
2. ...will still make the occasional mistake


			
				JLanguage said:
			
		

> Not true, it is certainly* possible* to attain native profiency in a foreign language, but this very rarely occurs. More often learners may come close, but still have varying degrees of accents even if they master the other aspects of the language. Also, even learners who have attained high profiency in a foreign language will still make the occasional mistake, either in speech or in writing or both.


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## JLanguage

rob.returns said:
			
		

> I disagree. Somewhere, somehow, a certain word will trip you and there you go..."YOu are not Spanish, are you"?
> 
> I find the post Jlanguage contradictory...
> 1. Not true, it is certainly* possible* to attain native profiency
> 2. ...will still make the occasional mistake


 


			
				me said:
			
		

> Not true, it is certainly* possible* to attain native profiency in a foreign language, *but this very rarely occurs.*


 
I said it was possible but very improbable and then I went on to discuss what usually happens. There is no contradiction as far as I can tell.


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## fenixpollo

Edher said:
			
		

> Can someone please give me a specific example about nuances that native English speakers use?


I think what redwine meant in post #8 of this thread is that every culture or tribe uses *shibboleths*:





> Shibboleth is the Hebrew word that literally means "torrent of water" or "stream". In the Hebrew Bible, pronunciation of this word was used to distinguish members of a group whose dialect lacked a "sh" sound from members of a group whose dialect included such a sound. The consequences of getting it wrong were fatal.


 (source) In modern times, nobody is put to death for not pronouncing like a native speaker, _edit:_ but perhaps, on occasion, shibboleths are used by xenophobic people to exclude outsiders. 

Shibboleths, such as certain vowel combinations, can also be used within native-speaker groups to identify outsiders: the "ou" like in "out", can be used to tell Canadians from Americans; or the "a" like in "hat" can be used to distinguish South Africans from Australians; in Spanish the "ll" and the "s" can be used in this way. 

Add regionalisms, generation-specific words and synonyms with subtle distinctions, and the number of nuances becomes quite large.


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## me82

so if i go to the USA, for example, and meet a man who i like, is it possible that he won't accept me easily or not find me attractive because i am French?  ... no matter all the efforts i make and the passion i give to learn this lovely language that is English?


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## Brioche

fenixpollo said:
			
		

> Shibboleths, such as certain vowel combinations, can also be used within native-speaker groups to identify outsiders:
> or the "a" like in "hat" can be used to distinguish South Africans from Australians;



I came across my first "South Efricans" in a B&B in Ireland.
Once heard, never forgotten!
As far as I am concerned it is one of most distinctive of accents.
I don't think their long a, as in car, is found anywhere else.


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## Brioche

me82 said:
			
		

> so if i go to the USA, for example, and meet a man whom i like, is it possible that he won't accept me easily or not find me attractive because i am French?  ... no matter all the efforts i make and the passion i give to learn this lovely language that is English?



Actually, most men find a soft French accent to be charming, sexy and chic.

Generally speaking, a French accent will actually increase your attractiveness.


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## fenixpollo

me82 said:
			
		

> so if i go to the USA, for example, and meet a man who i like, is it possible that he won't accept me easily or not find me attractive because i am French?


Au contraire, me82.  If you come to the US with your French culture and French accent, you will be 3x more attractive to men.  You will be exotic and mysterious, and you'll have to beat them off with a stick.

My mention of shibboleths wasn't intended to mean that they are used regularly to exclude non-members of a group.  Maybe I should have said that they are used to *identify* non-members of a group -- and in some cases, those non-members are easily (even more easily) accepted into the group.


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## me82

Thank you Brioche and Fenixpollo for the answers that made me smile.  

Brioche, thank you for changing my "who" to "whom"... i still have a problem with that.  

Fenixpollo, my worry was not directed at you only, but at a few others too... i really want to be accepted and not be left apart in any way. But your and Brioche's reply reassured me a lot.  Thank you so much.


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## Isotta

I think about this often, in part because I am interested in stories about anthropologists who "go native" during or after their fieldwork.

I spoke French as a child--I learned to read in French before I did in English--though when I did not speak it for about eight years, I forgot a lot. And then when I began speaking it again, words would come back to me in conversation, in dreams, etc. Now I have no accent at all--it usually takes a good bit before people recognise I'm not French--but sometimes I make mistakes, my intonation can sound not quite French, and I mix up expressions. So the French usually think I am Swiss, Belgian, Canadian, Dutch, Italian--whatever, really, that is not French. I were a spy, I would have to keep my conversations under ten minutes.

I think it is possible to go native. I have seen it before. In China I met people who had absolutely no accent, according to natives, in Mandarin. But I think it requires a bit of an ear for it, and, more importantly, attention to detail.

Isotta.


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## Inara

modgirl said:
			
		

> That is such an excellent question! And I desperately want to answer it, but it is difficult. Often times, in the English language forum, someone will ask about the difference in usage between two very, very similar words. And we give examples. But then, someone will give an example that is an exception to the rule. (And, of course I can't think of any great examples right now) But, when someone knows those rare "exceptions to the rule" it usually sets him apart as a native.


 
Perhaps that thread with "need not" vs "don't need" would be a good example, when everybody agreed that the sentances were interchangeble and then someone came out saying that there was HUGE difference and made everybody see it.

As for me, I would give a lot for this kind of "feeling" of language. I have this feeling in Russian, but I would give a lot to feel Spanish and English in a simular maner. Is it really impossible? Does the "gate" really closes at the age of 12? No, please, I think I shall fight to get that door open again 

By the way, my English is just 9 years old and my Spanish is 6. I hope very much, that they just need a good school as any children and, of course, a lot of school yard practice


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## Pablochopper

I don´t think it is possible for an adult who has learnt another language to pass themselves off as a "native" - as other people have said, there will always be something missing. Sometimes, if people have picked up the accent and mannerisms of speach in an area then you can almost be considered a native, but in my experience (meeting foreigners that speak English) there is always a little something "strange" which you can generally pick up on, although you don't always know what it is. I had a friend at university who spoke perfect English but there was something a little "odd"....it took me about a month to realise that he was actually dutch!

Sometimes its better to stand out slightly - it can certainly make you more interesting to people because you have something "different" to the natives...of course, not everyone thinks like that but people who would exclude someone because they are not "native" are best avoided anyhow.


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## Oven

hhhmmmm This is a very interesting thread. I have to say Ive questioned the same before. Whenever I meet english people, they usually say my english is perfectthink I am not chilean. They may think I was born in England or that one of my parents comes from England. What usually gives me away is my look. I disagree with all those who've said getting a perfect accent is not possible. I personally think it's just a matter of hard work and motivation. I've met quiet a lot of people whose accent was impressive. Ive even been told there¡'re some 'non-native' speakers who actually speak better than natives speakers themselves. My phonetics teacher is one of those people, he speaks wonderfully and he's never been abroad. Whenever Eng people meet they think he comes originally from Eng. He's been learning Eng for 27 years now, though, and it's been only through hard work that he's got such a brilliant pronounciation.

Anyway, There'll always be a little something that sets you up, spelling blunders, wrong stressing, pitch tones, etc. If you ever become fluent in english, that means you've learnt a language perfectly but what you won't be able to learn is culture and that'll give you away, no matter how good you are at learning languages.
Ive forgotten to tell you that I've learning for about 3 years now.
take care all of you


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## Whodunit

Wow, how this thread has grown since I have started it. Thank you very much for all your replies and open frank opinions. I, personally, think it is possible to acquire a native's accent with whom you're together for a while (some years); this includes relationship, friendship as well as just telecommunications. Every time I open the new German threads, I'm so astonished about our learner's German. They speak or write (almost) perfectly, but what bothers me is that I can't judge their accent.

I've also been questioning this question over and over again before, so I just started this thread in order to get opinions from people who have come around much ore often than me. I often try to immitate some "native phrases", I can't even find in dictionaries and anywhere else. I don't try to speak "poor English" or even such a strong slang English as many chatters on the Net, but I prefer speaking informally as well as being formal in situations where it is necessary.

You don't know how much I appreciate expressions like "You're making great process" or "Your English has improved tremendously since your first post". When I read earlier threads started by me in this forum, I almost love reading them, because then I can say that my English has improved indeed. This is one among many other points that encourage me not to abandon English or other languages.

Anyways, thank you all very much for all your replies and frank answers that really make me think over if I go abroad or not ... and the answer is 'yes', I will, later. Otheriwse I will never become fluent in English.


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## liwanag

Personally, I know of someone who really sound like a native american speaker 
but in actuality is not...he acquired it through constant practice, determination and exposure to materials that could help improve his vocabulary....but with regards to being accepted as a native? that i doubt! The mere fact that he is known not to be one (native) plus the fact that he doesnt look like a native is already a hindrance to him being accepted as one.


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## nikvin

Sounding like a native is not necessarily that difficult, although as has been pointed out, little things may give the game away, such as a too formal use of grammar, or perhaps a lack of undestanding of some slang expressions.
Maybe generally there is an approximate cut off age for being able to learn a language, but i would tend to disagree. If a person has learnt another language before that age, I believe it will enhance their chances with a 3rd or subsequent language.And if the languages are very different with the sounds they make , say Russian / French  , that will help too.

The main thing that will tell a non-native speaker apart is not so much language as other things.
I am British, all my family is British, but I was brought up in France from the age of 3 to 13. upon returning to the UK , I spoke little English and could read and write even less. Some words being totally beyond comprehension , especially those with th and  y in them. In terms of speaking it perfectly, and obviously, I had enormous incentive to do so, this took 3 or 4 yrs. In terms of NOT standing out from the crowd, this took possibly nearer to 15!!
The reason being, people who did not know about my youth, wouldnt understand why I could not join in conversations about , a particular TV programme, a childrens comic, singers, etc, all the things that you pick up in childhood, and reminisce about, even different sweets . Eventually one does learn about these in retrospect, or a jokey comment such as "I´m too young to remember that". Now of course in France, although I´d know all that stuff relevant to those years, i´d be out of touch with everything thats happened in between, apart from which my French is so rusty it´s embarrassing!! On the odd occasion I do get to speak it, I am thought to be French, until I stumble for words.
Sometimes here in Spain, Im thought to have a french accent when I speak Spanish, and that suits me fine!! On other occasions, I have been thought to be a Spaniard who had lived in England for many years, and maybe lost the native accent?acquired an English one!! Personally I take that as a compliment!


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## Yanelle

This is an old thread, but I felt like answering anyway. 
I have been teaching Spanish to foreigners for thirteen years. I can tell you that no English adult speaking Spanish will ever, ever sound Spanish to the point you would think they are native. 

The same as I will never sound English, no matter how well I can talk, write, argue and as someone pointed: be funny. I will always have this funny accent that makes it clear that I am Spanish. 

After all, the important thing is that we can communicate, I do not speak English to impress my listener or fool him/her. Communication is the final target. We do not learn English to talk solely to British people, but to understand people from all over the world


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## zebedee

Yanelle said:
			
		

> I can tell you that no English adult speaking Spanish will ever, ever sound Spanish to the point you would think they are native.


 
Hello Yanelle,

You're very categorical expressing your opinion. I beg to differ with it.

I started learning Spanish when I moved to Spain at the age of 22, well into adult life. I've been living here for 13 years now and people I speak to do think I'm native.

Whether it's because I have a good 'ear for languages' or I'm just a good mimic, the fact is that the usual reaction when I meet someone new and they happen to find out I'm actually English, is: "El caso es que, al verte la cara, pensaba que eras extranjera pero cuando te oí hablar, pensé: No, esta chica es de aquí."

And I agree with you that the important thing is not to impress or fool anyone into thinking that you're something you're not, but just to communicate. However my integration after so many years is such that it just comes out naturally.

Un saludo,
zebedee


----------



## Mei

Whodunit said:
			
		

> I don't speak about people who emigrated from their country and don't speak their original language anymore, such as Alanis Morrissette, who is born in near Cologne, Germany, but don't know German anymore.


 
As I readed in a biography, Alanis Morissette was born in Ottawa (Canada) on first june 1974, it's true that she was in German when she was a child but living there about 3 years. Her parents use to travel a lot about their jobs as a teacher I think). She was in Laar. Those were her first memories of childhood. This is what I read, I didn't asked her so, I'm not 100% sure.

Yes, I love her work, and I read about her...   

Cheers

Mei


----------



## Yanelle

Hi, Zebedee,
Sorry, it is my opinion, that's why I express it categorically. I do not mean to hurt anyone; It is only that I have met hundreds of English people, many of them speak beautiful Spanish. Perfect, or nearly close to perfection. But they have an accent, which is also nice, it is sort of charming to have an accent. And I as said before, it is not important really, as long as you can communicate. 

English and Spanish phonetics are so different that it is very hard for a Spaniard to master the English sounds and the other way round.

I do not know how well you speak it, congratulations if it is true you sound like a native speaker. But how many English people you know who speak it like you?   Maybe people like you are the exception that proves the rule. 

Warm regards

My apologies if my words have offended anyone.


----------



## evonde

I feel a bit lazy to read all the posts... But I would like to add to the discussion that not all natives sound like natives. My father was born in Germany and spent his first 12 years there, but then he left. Although he speaks excellent German, it sounds academic, stiff and extremely old fashioned. I, on the other hand, was born in Colombia and only started speaking German in my late twenties. i had been in contact with the language since my childhood, but very passively. My German is certainly more up to date than my father's -who, I repeat is a native-, but it still lacks the "natural" flow, which his certainly has.
In a world in which people move so much, the media standarise language usage,  and migrations change languages so quickly, it has become more difficult to establish what a native should sound like. 

Great discussion topic! Thanks for posting it.


----------



## LV4-26

Isotta said:
			
		

> --it usually takes a good bit before people recognise I'm not French--but sometimes I make mistakes, my intonation can sound not quite French, and I mix up expressions. So the French usually think I am Swiss, Belgian, Canadian, Dutch, Italian--whatever, really, that is not French. I were a spy, I would have to keep my conversations under ten minutes.


 I understand that. I used to be a guide in a French_ château_ and we had many British visitors there. Sometimes they would say "Oh, good, you're English". But that was only after the very first minutes of conversation. Soon I would miss a word or two. And this would impact on my intonation and accent. Just because then my "concentration energy" would shift on vocabulary rather than accent. This is what makes me different to a native : I need concentration.

However, I'm sure it's possible for a foreigner to sound like a native (even if you weren't born and brought up in the country). Especially if you _have a good 'ear for languages' or [are] just a good mimic _as zebedee wrote.

I'm a strong believer in practice (acquired versus innate). Time and practice. I do think time and endless repetition are able to compensate for the absence of an "early exposition". This absence makes things muuuuuch more difficult but not altogether impossible.


			
				Vanda said:
			
		

> According to my linguistic teachers one will never sound like a native of another language, unless one has spoken in that language since his/her first to second childhood.Something related to the vocal chords already shaped according to the sounds of the mother tongue...


I've heard that too and I suppose it's true. To mean this only means that it's best to start as early as possible. But not that starting later deprives you of all chances of ever sounding like a native.


----------



## Jade

After having read all of your remarks on Whod's initial question, there is still something which I personally miss in all your answers and that has to be considered.

Before saying anything, I should better ask Whod, what exactly he wants to know by exposing the question "accepted like a native". Whod, when you're talking about acceptance ...... do you only refer to the linguistical aspect or do you also include the personal aspects?

E.g. a foreigner can be perfect in linguistic matters or even be born in the country, feeling and being more native that the natives themself, but not being accepted by the natives. A very close and clear example is given in your country, where most of the "foreigners" born in Germany feel and are much closer to western german culture than the former East German nation. 

Jade 





one thing that hasn't inside me which hasn't been answered after having read the last opinion.


----------



## LV4-26

Quite so. Most of us focused on the "sound" part and ignored the "accepted" part of the question.
I reread Who's initial post and didn't really find an answer to Jade's question. 
I assume "like" here means be accepted as much or as well as a native. I can see no reason why you shouldn't. Or is it the word "accepted" that would need to be more clearly defined ?

Incidentally, as some of you mentionned Alanis Morisette, I wished to say that I heard Jody Foster speak French recently on TV and that I didn't find the slightest trace of American accent in the way she speaks. She really sounded French (but then again, maybe she didn't speak long enough).


----------



## Isotta

LV4-26 said:
			
		

> Incidentally, as some of you mentionned Alanis Morisette, I wished to say that I heard Jody Foster speak French recently on TV and that I didn't find the slightest trace of American accent in the way she speaks. She really sounded French (but then again, maybe she didn't speak long enough).


  Yes, she went to a French high school in America. Par contre, I find she has a somewhat strange way of speaking in English--constricted mouth or something (has anyone else noticed this?). Perhaps she took too well to French and it warped her English? This can happen. I once knew a Frenchman who lived in English-speaking Canada so long that when he returned to France, people complimented him on his French!  Z.


----------



## nycphotography

My friends and I had an interesting discussion about this at lunch one day. 

Two of us, myself and my friend (the officially educated linguist), were discussing how its just impossible after some set age to ever learn to speak completely like a native.

Then our Indian friend interrupted and said that he believed that the difference was not the age when the language was taken up, but rather, the degree to which the speaker truly identifies with not just the target language but also the target culture.

Once we thought (and argued) about it, we pretty much agreed!  The linguist, no matter how much he studied French, Russian, Swahili, etc, never really identified with the cultures.   He never truly wanted to BE French, or Russian, or Ghanaian(?).

But once we thought about it, we each knew at least one person who, although coming to America well after any consensus "age of too-latedness", nevertheless considered themselves to be (self-identified as) American, probably even more so than most US born native speakers.  Of course none of us knew many examples.   We decided that most people never fully let go of their identity as being a "blank-american".

I think the real ostacle that we all face is that to truly speak like a native, we have to become a native, and we all have strong ties to out mother tongue, mother country, mother culture, and our family, that we never quite let go of.


----------



## Mei

Isotta said:
			
		

> Yes, she went to a French high school in America. Par contre, I find she has a somewhat strange way of speaking in English--constricted mouth or something (has anyone else noticed this?). Perhaps she took too well to French and it warped her English? This can happen. I once knew a Frenchman who lived in English-speaking Canada so long that when he returned to France, people complimented him on his French! Z.


 
Really? Who are you talking about? Alanis Morissette or Jodie Foster? I'm just curious, I can notice the diference between a native US and a Canadian one speaking English, right now it's the same to my hear... 

Cheers 

Mei


----------



## sonix

It is an obsession for some people to speak like a native. I never understood why. 
I think the problem comes when people have prejudices against certain accents (as in the case of Mexicans and Puerto Ricans, who are discriminated because of their accent in USA). Otherwise, having an accent is not a problem at all. I have never met any anglo-speaker who speaks Spanish like a native. And even English-speakers themselves have lots of different accents, like the British (northern, southern, londoners, cockney, Scottish...), and as in the case of Spain, where there are different accents in every region too. Latin Americans have even more diversity of accents. So why should it be a problem to have an accent in a foreign language?
Some foreign accents are really cute anyway, much more than the native ones, so don't lose them !! ;-)


----------



## Jade

sonix said:
			
		

> It is an obsession for some people to speak like a native. I never understood why.
> I think the problem comes when people have prejudices against certain accents (as in the case of Mexicans and Puerto Ricans, who are discriminated because of their accent in USA). Otherwise, having an accent is not a problem at all. I have never met any anglo-speaker who speaks Spanish like a native. And even English-speakers themselves have lots of different accents, like the British (northern, southern, londoners, cockney, Scottish...), and as in the case of Spain, where there are different accents in every region too. Latin Americans have even more diversity of accents. So why should it be a problem to have an accent in a foreign language?
> Some foreign accents are really cute anyway, much more than the native ones, so don't lose them !! ;-)



Sonix, I very much like your last sentence. It's so sad when you meet south American people after having lived for a while in Spain and their accent becomes from day to day more Spanish

Jade


----------



## zebedee

Jade said:
			
		

> Sonix, I very much like your last sentence. It's so sad when you meet south American people after having lived for a while in Spain and their accent becomes from day to day more Spanish
> 
> Jade


 
But how much of that is due to soaking up what surrounds you? We've talked in other threads about how you unconsciously adopt the accent of the person you're speaking to without even realising you're doing it. I think it's completely understandable that someone from America who's lived for a while in Spain loses their native accent, and vice versa. It's a natural process of immersion.


----------



## LV4-26

And the same goes when you move from one region to another in the same country.


----------



## Bescherung

To return to the point of being able to perfect the sound of a native, I think it is quite possible. I have a french tutor who speaks English with the most wonderful scottish accent, even when listening to her for long periods of time it is quite impossible to tell that she is French. I questionned her on her parent's origin but she confirmed that they are both French natives and she has only lived in Scotland for 3 years, she has simply immersed herself amongst native English speakers. However I equally believe that you will never be accepted as a native until you can fully understand and embrace all cultural differences no matter how well you speak the language.


----------



## okadrienne

Anglophone? Wow, I really speak American english. I've never even heard of that word.


----------



## LV4-26

> Anglophone? Wow, I really speak American english. I've never even heard of that word.


You'd be surprised to know how many words I don't know in my own language 
_anglophone_ was used by JLanguage to correct Whodunit. JLanguage speaks American English as well


----------



## Mei

Hi there,

I think that you can sound and be accepted like a native, in fact I met a french boy that I couldn't believe that he was from France! I swear, his spanish is perfect. I must say that when he moved to Spain he was 15 years old.... (now he is 30 more or less, and when I met him... he was about 23-24 for me is so little time) so I think that with practise and patience you will sound like a native...  

Mei


----------



## ILoveBelinda

i have mixed opinions on this one, and will give a few examples and probably contradict myself.  I am in the military so i run into many people from many origins and languages.  I have noticed that many people will see someone of a different tinted skin and automatically assume that person is of a different race than caucasion and then ask where they are from and what language(s) that person speaks.  A friend of mine speaks perfect english and is just a little darker than I am (tanned but noticably white)  and I never thought to ask if he was of a different origin, he was from texas and that explained everythign in my mind.  Then one night i hear him on the phone speaking a different language and upon asking him find out he was born in vietnam and came to america at age 4.  He fluently speaks both languages and is excepted by both cultures.  I have another friend who is noticably korean and didnt learn english until he was in his late teens.  he speaks very good english after only 4-5 years of studying it, and I thought he had grown up in america and just had korean parents, i later found out he was born and raised in korea and messes up with english alot in writing.  i went out with him (in korea) a few nights ago and noticed he wasnt really accepted as a korean because he has been "americanized" even though he fluently speaks korean and has a korean accent.  An american i work with just learned to speak korean and fakes the accent very well is asked regularly if one of his parents is korean.  so its not whether or not you cna fake the accent or be born with it or how well you know the language in my opinion, it depends on the people (country you are in) and the person and how welll they carry themselves and the language they are speaking. 

and since i am on this topic, i have a similar question.  the girl i am currently dating and gettign serious with wants me to go back to the phillipines with her so i am learning tagalog.  i realize i will never look like or sound like i am from PI  but would i be accepted there or would people treat me as an outsider?    

i know in america and korea there are different groups of people that would either turn their noses up completely because of you not being native and then those that would reach out and try extra hard to help you because you are not native, so i was wondering if it was the same  there


----------



## irisheyes0583

Again, the question is "what is meant by being _accepted as a native_"??? For me, you are not a _native_ speaker unless you are a native speaker! If you don't speak a language as your first language (or one of your first languages, if you were brought up in a multilingual environment), then you are not a native speaker. It's not a value judgement, it's simply the definition of native. However, I do believe that is is completely possible for people to _assume_ you are native if you speak well enough.

I studied linguistics in college and am aware that many believe that one will always have an accent in another language if he/she did not start that language by a certain age. As various foreros have said, this is not always true. I had a Brazilian boyfriend who came to visit me in the States. He started learning English when he was 16 or 17 just by listening to music, watching TV, etc... no real formal English education. He spoke English _very very _well... so much so that when I took him to a party here in the States, people that didn't know he was from Brazil were *shocked* when we said that he wasn't American. He can adopt a NY accent, a Philly accent, a southern accent, a BE accent, and Australian accent, and pretty much any accent that he has been exposed to. People, even natives of the dialect which he is speaking, always assume that it is his first language & dialect. For me, he is all the proof I need that you can indeed be _accepted_ as a native as long as people don't know that you're not.


----------



## I.C.

I guess total immersion in another language doesn’t really suit analytical learners and I’d say most adults tend to be rather analytical in their approach. They lack the mental flexibility to let go of the mental structure they have acquired in their native language and to build a new universe almost from scratch. So they just try to layer a new language over their old one and their old experiences. Which leads to collisions. 
Yet for some people it is an alluring idea to give up part of their personality to experience life differently, to become someone else, at least for some of the time. Maybe a few of them have mental structures allowing them to actually do so to a high degree, together with an ear for languages?

Only talking about accents, some people have a very good ear for the modulations of the human voice and the rhythm of language. It's a gift.
It's possible to maintain a perfect accent throughout a conversation, though maybe not on any given day. 
Flawless language at all times? On some days I struggle hard with my native language. Sober as a judge.

Wondering whether differing abilities in visual thinking can have an influence on the suitability of different learning styles.


----------



## ampurdan

IC, I appreciate your insights on the analytical approach to a foreign language and on the Matahari spy linguistical constitution (I don't how to name it, so if anyone has a better idea, it will be welcome), I mean what follows:


			
				I.C. said:
			
		

> Yet for some people it is an alluring idea to give up part of their personality to experience life differently, to become someone else, at least for some of the time. Maybe a few of them have mental structures allowing them to actually do so to a high degree, together with an ear for languages?


 
I like your point too, Irisheyes:



			
				irisheyes0583 said:
			
		

> you can indeed be _accepted_ as a native as long as people don't know that you're not.


 
Which means that a nonnative will never be accepted as a native as long as he is honest. And even if this nonnative is not honest, they will always have some way to find out he is not really one of them.

The question is, why should anyone have to accept A as B? A is not B, no matter how nice B is to A or viceversa. Why should I accept a dog as a cat, even though it may be a very feline dog? I know the difference between languages is cultural, not physical, but I think the analogy works once we have drawn a more or less rough line between natives and nonnatives.

I don't get the point of being accepted as a native, unless you want to deceive other people or even yourself about your origins.

Having said that, it is true that some strong foreign accents may be heavy or dull to the ears of some natives of the target language, so it is a good idea to tone them down.


----------



## I.C.

ampurdan said:
			
		

> I don't how to name


Maybe cultureshifters. 
Link to shapeshifting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shapeshifter


----------



## riksta

cirrus said:
			
		

> Way back when I was studying linguistics I was told that the gate shuts when you are twelve or so years old. In other words if you haven't started speaking whatever the target language is by then you will never sound right in that language. The necessary wiring / ability in the brain - the connections just fall away in the vast majority of people after this age.
> 
> I had Spanish teachers who were certainly fluent in English: they could read, talk, digest and argue as well as persuade, be sarcastic, influence and be funny in English but they would never sound English or even from another English first language country.
> 
> Despite years of effort and effectively putting my head in a mixer, I suspect that I am now in the same position with Spanish. There will always be something that trips me up, a shade I don't see or a nuance that passes me by. It doesn't mean I can't speak it but it does mean I'll never pass as a native.
> 
> What is interesting is looking at friends' children who have been brought up with several languages - I suspect that not all of them will end up sounding like natives. Even if your dad is a native x language speaker and always speaks to you in his mother tongue and you live in y country you may well perfectly understand what is being said and can communicate effectively but if you personally *prefer* to speak in Spanish, or German or Tagalog ... your x language will never quite convince a native.


 
Hi Cirrus, whilst i agree that you generally need to have learnt the language (in a native country) before about 12 yo, i know for a fact that it _is_ possible to fool native speakers in to thinking you are a native. But the only way to do this is to aquire an accent specific to a particular region. You may not be able to fool those from that region, but you will most likely fool the majority of other native speakers.


----------



## Don Borinqueno

ampurdan said:
			
		

> IC, I appreciate your insights on the analytical approach to a foreign language and on the Matahari spy linguistical constitution (I don't how to name it, so if anyone has a better idea, it will be welcome), I mean what follows:
> 
> 
> I like your point too, Irisheyes:
> 
> 
> 
> Which means that a nonnative will never be accepted as a native as long as he is honest. And even if this nonnative is not honest, they will always have some way to find out he is not really one of them.
> 
> The question is, why should anyone have to accept A as B? A is not B, no matter how nice B is to A or viceversa. Why should I accept a dog as a cat, even though it may be a very feline dog? I know the difference between languages is cultural, not physical, but I think the analogy works once we have drawn a more or less rough line between natives and nonnatives.
> 
> I don't get the point of being accepted as a native, unless you want to deceive other people or even yourself about your origins.
> 
> Having said that, it is true that some strong foreign accents may be heavy or dull to the ears of some natives of the target language, so it is a good idea to tone them down.


 
Trying to be accpected as a native may mean to someone people more than one might imgaine. A lot of people are here on Word Reference because they are trying to become perfect speakers of the language that they are learning. To them having mastered their language well enough to sound like a Native speaker is something that they have dedicated a large part of their lives to.


----------



## Maria Juanita

ampurdan said:
			
		

> I don't get the point of being accepted as a native, unless you want to deceive other people or even yourself about your origins.



I agree with what you said. I think that maybe the reason why some people likes to learn foreign languages is because they have a wonderful opportunity to know another culture, but some of the people also wants to think they're different, it's some sort of denial. 

I'm not expecting to be accepted as a native in a french speaking country or an english one. But I certainly would like not to be discriminated by the fact I'm not. It's nice when you meet a person who speaks other language and you notice they don't only do it, but they know a lot of things about the culture of your own country, it's like, a sign of respect and in my case, I'd say that learning about culture can help you to get a better knowledge of the language itself because most of structures in a language come from cultural frames and circumstances. At the university I've learned that language, culture and thinking are a trilogy studied by many language philosophers.

Saludillos


----------



## LV4-26

Maria Juanita said:
			
		

> I agree with what you said. I think that maybe the reason why some people likes to learn foreign languages is because they have a wonderful opportunity to know another culture, but some of the people also wants to think they're different, it's some sort of denial.


 The question has been debated here and elsewhere as to whether we should try our best to sound like and be taken for a native. Now, you're going a little further and wondering whether it would result in some sort of "denial".

My answer to that would be...*.let it be*. Don't force yourself to use colloquial ways of speaking (in another thread, we talked of using phrases such as wanna, gonna, gotta,....)when you aren't ready for it, to imitate regional accents when you aren't ready for it. By "ready for it", I mean when you haven't yet learnt enough standard register.

When you're exposed long enough to the foreign language, accent, culture, habits, when you've lived enough in the country, it'll come by itself. I mean there will come a time when you will not only "think" you're different, you'll _be_ actually different. 
Up to a certain extent, I think we can be two persons in one and change as we move from one culture to another. I'm a strong believer in the idea that we're born anew each time something is said to us, that contact with others effectively changes us by the minute.

By "let it be", I mean don't force and anticipate the process, but don't resist it either.


----------



## lyrwriter

What a fascinating topic! I thought I might share the following anecdote, although many similar ones have already been mentioned:

Last year we had a Danish exchange student at my school. Actually, I was completely unaware of the fact that she was an exchange student until shortly before the end of the year (when someone asked to hear her speak Danish), because her English was flawless. Or, rather, it was full of flaws, which is what made it flawless. What really impressed me (in retrospect) was her mastery of the American accent, slang, and most of all, _contractions_. I say this because in my experience, what often makes nonnative English-speakers stand out (to my ear) is their lack of/misuse of contractions. American English speakers are notoriously lazy with their language (i.e. dropping syllables in words, slurring several words together into one long word, etc.), and the exchange student had picked up on that perfectly. She had even caught the (bad) habit of an American teenager in the misuse of the word "like". For all intents and purposes, she could have passed as American any day.

But I also think there may be nuances that may be as simple as the clothes we wear or the way we walk that distinguish us. Cultural nuances. Perhaps they disappear with cultural immersion, I wouldn't know. Here's an example: my sister and I visted Europe recently. Both of us are young, and moderately attractive by American standards, and everyone (including our parents) warned us that we would probably have guys hitting on us in Italy and Greece (why there, as opposed to anywhere else, I couldn't tell you). Many people, reminiscing about their own trips to Europe, told us stories of "that cute Italian guy" or "the flirtatious man in the Greek taverna", etc. Needless to say, we were feeling a bit apprehensive.

Nothing that anyone had said, however, prepared us for the barrage of "hits" we got in London and Paris (we counted; approx. 4 per day). With random guys whistling at us on the street, we both cringed at the thought of our next destination, Italy. "If it's this bad here, just imagine what that'll be like!" we thought.

Out of the two and a half weeks spent in Italy and Greece combined, only once did we have to deal with whistling and cat-calling men, and that was (ironically) just after I pointed out to my sister "Have you noticed we haven't had any guys hit on us since Paris?"

I still can't quite figure out why this phenomenon occurred. We did our absolute best to not be "Ugly American Tourists" (i.e. disrespectful of customs, language, etc.), and really did try not to stick out like sore thumbs, but I think it was probably something (like a cultural nuance) that we didn't have any conscious control over. Perhaps the universe was simply trying to disprove the stereotyped image that men in southern European countries are more flirtatious, I don't know. But the best answer I can come up with is that it was some aspect of the culture that was invisible to us. Perhaps if we had stayed longer, it would have become visible.


----------



## nichec

Hello to all and happy new year, 
I have exactly the same kind of experience as I Love Translating. I wasn't born in US. I've never spent long time in US, but I do come here often for many different reasons. I've never been a student of any kind in US or any other English speaking cities. But I'm often mistaken as a native speaker. For example, when I flied from Paris ( where I study French ) to UVA to visit my sister one month ago, I shared a limo with three other Americans from DC to UVA. And one of the guys who comes from Boston actually told me that he thinks I speak better English than most of the young Americans ( Please, please, no offence here, just quote what he said ) . And they were all surprised to know that I'm not a native speaker 
So I think it's possible for some one to sound like a native speaker, as for being accepted, I really don't know if I'm accepted by the Europeans or the Americans. And there's no way for me to find out since I'm not one of them. But I do make friends easily in both places. Thank them for their kindness 
cheers to all,   N


----------



## lyrwriter

nichec said:
			
		

> Hello to all and happy new year,
> I have exactly the same kind of experience as I Love Translating. I wasn't born in the US. I've never spent long time in the US, but I do come here often for many different reasons. I've never been a student of any kind in US or any other English speaking cities. But I'm often mistaken as a native speaker. For example, when I flied (flew) from Paris (where I study French) to UVA to visit my sister one month ago, I shared a limo with three other Americans from DC to UVA. And one of the guys who comes from Boston actually told me that he thinks I speak better English than most of the young Americans ( Please, please, no offence here, I'm just quoting what he said ) . And they were all surprised to know (discover) that I'm not a native speaker
> So I think it's possible for someone to sound like a native speaker, as for being accepted, I really don't know if I'm accepted by the Europeans or the Americans. And there's no way for me to find out since I'm not one of them. But I do make friends easily in both places. Thank them for their kindness
> cheers to all, N


 
Just a few corrections... 
Happy New Year!


----------



## nichec

well, there you go. It seems that there's still really a difference between native speakers and nonnative speakers, no matter how hard we try or how proud we are of ourselves. 
Thanks for the correction. My spelling is getting worse by the day since I started learning French. 
a bit sad----N


----------



## Don Borinqueno

Once you start putting limits on yourself you are sure to fail. What you have to do is in your mind just say :Screw what everyone else thinks or what people say, I am dedicated to sounding like a native speaker and thats what im gonna do". The only thing holding you back from achieving it is yourself


----------



## Don Borinqueno

Before a lot of the people began learning the languages they did some told them they it would be almost impossible to learn and that it would take a hwile. But those people didn't get disheartened. So why are you going to listen to the people that are now saying that you can't sound like a native. Don't like people but boundaries on what you can accomplish


----------



## LV4-26

> What really impressed me (in retrospect) was her mastery of the American accent, slang, and most of all, _contractions_.


In my post above, I was referring to those people who don't even master the language, let alone the accent and use contractions like _wanna, gotta_ and so forth all the same. That really sounds funny. (I know quite a few French who do that)
Of course, the case you're mentionning is very different.


----------



## lyrwriter

LV4-26 said:
			
		

> In my post above, I was referring to those people who don't even master the language, let alone the accent and use contractions like _wanna, gotta_ and so forth all the same. That really sounds funny. (I know quite a few French who do that)
> Of course, the case you're mentionning is very different.


 
Oh, oops! I actually didn't write that in response to your post, but I do agree with you: inexperienced speakers and those who do not have a firm grasp of the language should definitely not attempt to use contractions, except in the case of widely accepted ones like "don't", "can't", "won't", etc. 
Just out of curiosity, are there contractions like "gotta" and "wanna" in French? Ones that can't be used in written French but are used daily in the spoken language?


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## Don Borinqueno

Even though those contractions do sound werid in osme instances they are necessary for sounding like a native. Say if you were to go out with a group of friends and you are speaking perfecly using no slang or no contractions your speech will slowly start to be singled out. To be "accepcted" as a native you must be able to speak as they do.


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## Don Borinqueno

OH ok i get what your saying now. I agree


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## BasedowLives

lyrwriter said:
			
		

> Just out of curiosity, are there contractions like "gotta" and "wanna" in French? Ones that can't be used in written French but are used daily in the spoken language?



i know they exist.  eg

je suis = chuis
je sais = chais


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## LV4-26

lyrwriter said:
			
		

> Oh, oops! I actually didn't write that in response to your post


 Oh yes, I knew that. I just took the opportunity of your post to precise my own. 

We also say _faut que je_ [+ subj] instead of_* il *faut que _to mean_ I gotta._


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## Maria Juanita

LV4-26 said:
			
		

> I think we can be two persons in one and change as we move from one culture to another. I'm a strong believer in the idea that we're born anew each time something is said to us, that contact with others effectively changes us by the minute.



Very well said. I still think that somehow, it also has to do with the ear and some other skills, but you're right.

 Saludillos...


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## nichec

Quote: originally from Iyrwriter
Nothing that anyone had said, however, prepared us for the barrage of "hits" we got in London and Paris (we counted; approx. 4 per day). With random guys whistling at us on the street, we both cringed at the thought of our next destination, Italy. "If it's this bad here, just imagine what that'll be like!" we thought.

Out of the two and a half weeks spent in Italy and Greece combined, only once did we have to deal with whistling and cat-calling men, and that was (ironically) just after I pointed out to my sister "Have you noticed we haven't had any guys hit on us since Paris?"

Hello again, 
@Iyrwriter
Isn't it funny that we should have totally different experience in Europe?
But I think I could, perhaps, explain the reason why according to my understanding of the Parisians and the Italians ( they can, of course, be very wrong )

I lived in Paris for quite a long time, and during that period of time, I went frequently to Rome ( coz I love it so  ) 

In the beginning when I just started my live in Paris, I couldn't speak a word in French, and everything seemed so complicated to me. At that time, I had exactly the kind of experience you and your lovely sister had in Paris ( they would go so far as to follow you all along the way back to your flat ). But as time went by, I guess I started to look like a parisian, by which I mean I knew my way around very well, I could talk to any one in what I was told quite good French ( just daily conversation, of course ), I dressed like most of the parisians ( I even helped American tourists that got lost ). And then I noticed that their attitude and approach changed dramatically. They showed me much more respect, and when they wanted to show their interest, they would approach in very subtle ways. Around that time, I started to go frequently to Rome. And I was totally overwhelmed by how passionate they were. They could say they are in love with you one minute after meeting you. They could try to pick you up in front of your boyfriend. And this never changed no matter how many times I was there.

So I guess it's the way they see you that makes them decide to do what they do to you. I mean, when they see that you look too much like a tourist ( which can show in so many ways that you don't even notice it yourself ) , which is my case in Italy, they tend to think that they can try very bold things on you without getting any serious feedback ( should I use consequence instead of feedback here for the negative meaning I'm implying?  ). But when you somehow pass as a resident ( never mind native ), they start to treat you as one of them in many ways, including flirting ( you'll never see a French man, in Paris, does those kind of things to a French woman as far as I know ). Well, at least that's my experience


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## kevinleihuang

Well, as for me, I have studied English for more than 12 years and my dad, an English professor, is actually my first English teacher. I know listening, speaking, and reading are three most important things that foreigners should pay attention to while learning certain language. I always write diary in English, listen to CNN & VOA in recent three years, watch C-Span and pratice my spoken English with American friends. I can speak English very fluently, but I think I cannot make my pronouncation fully as a native unless I can live in English-speaking environment for years.


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## lampiao

You can actually speak like the natives, and be accepted as one.

One aunt of mine is a retired teacher. 
She taught in one school for years, and one day she was very surprised to find out that one of her colleages was actually -russian-. 
My aunt only found it out because she saw the russian lady's full name on a board. 
This lady seemed to be a native because she speaks just like us, and her first name is common here. She is married to a portuguese man, and adopted his surname. So whenever she gave her first and last name no one suspected she was russian.


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## jjisneo

In Vanuatu it doesn't matter whether you speak the languag fluantly or come from another country. A man or woman is judged according to who they are personally however on that note know the language does also help you to show the peoplewho you are.


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## SpiceMan

Whodunit said:
			
		

> A friend of mine and I have had a little discussion about an foreigner's accuracy of a language he wants to speak fluently and most naturally. She insisted upon her opinion that you will never speak like a real native English speaker if you're Spanish or German or the like. I corrected her and insisted that if you really make efforts and occupy with the language and its dialects you will sound like a native someday.


Maybe its because of Portuguese and Spanish are closely related, but my mom has *no* foreign accent at all. She's from Brazil, and we went to live to Buenos Aires when she was 27 (so, that 12 y/o is blown off here). We've been living in Argentina ever since (more than 25 years), and no one can tell she's not from Buenos Aires. 

Someone said that you could fake another dialect intonation/accent and tell someone that you were native and get away with it... maybe so, but my mom speaks Buenos Aires' Spanish to people from Buenos Aires, and is never asked where she's from.

Strictly speaking, she has an issue with the spanish' strong "r". But -although rare-, some natives too have the same problem (similar to ceceo, but with the r), so she gets away with it .


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## WillyLandron

Why would you *want *to sound exactly like a native? I have a friend who speaks great Spanish but still has an accent and she sounds very *sexy*. I *like* to hear her talk.


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## blancalaw

cirrus said:
			
		

> Way back when I was studying linguistics I was told that the gate shuts when you are twelve or so years old.  In other words if you haven't started speaking whatever the target language is by then you will never sound right in that language.  The necessary wiring / ability in the brain - the connections just fall away in the vast majority of people after this age.
> 
> I had Spanish teachers who were certainly fluent in English: they could read, talk, digest and argue as well as persuade, be sarcastic, influence and be funny in English but they would never sound English or even from another English first language country.
> 
> Despite years of effort and effectively putting my head in a mixer, I suspect that I am now in the same position with Spanish.  There will always be something that trips me up, a shade I don't see or a nuance that passes me by.  It doesn't mean I can't speak it but it does mean I'll never pass as a native.
> 
> What is interesting is looking at friends' children who have been brought up with several languages - I suspect that not all of them will end up sounding like natives.  Even if your dad is a native x language speaker and always speaks to you in his mother tongue and you live in y country you may well perfectly understand what is being said and can communicate effectively but if you personally *prefer* to speak in Spanish, or German or Tagalog ... your x language will never quite convince a native.




According to research, if a child does not learn a language before the age of 12, then he or she will always have an accent.  A person can work hard to reduce their accent, almost up to the point of sounding like a native, but will always have some words that they will pronounce with an accent.
What really interests me is how someone can live in another country for a period of time, then when he returns to his home country, he would speak with an accent in his native language.


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## Fernita

Of course not and that´s not my intention at all. I sarted studying English at the age of 4. I went to an English school and at the same time, my dear mum decided I should have private classes with a native speaker and I did! At the age of 4! I ended up loving English and almost all languages.
I can speak Englishquite well and it´s much better than my French which I used to speak fluently about 25 years ago. 
Despite the fact that I can speak English fluently, I sometimes realize there are certain idiomatic expressions I´ve never come across before so I need them to be rephrased in order to understand what somebody is telling me.
Anyway, it will never be the same as speaking my native language unless I stayed in England or USA for at least a year or two. The fact is that I lived in London for a year but that was long ago. I also lived in USA for about a year, too. The AE was more difficult for me to understand but after a while I got used to it. 
Personally, I try not to fall back upon my mother tongue though I´m not the one to say it. 
To my mind, I can speak spontaneously. At least I could do it when I worked as interpreter in Luoisiana. That was a long time ago, too.
I´ve written this without prior planning. Therefore, I guess natives should tell whether they believe I can speak fluently, though this is written language I must confess I say aloud whatever I´m about to write .
Americans laugh at me when they listen to my pronunciation because they say it sounds too British. I was taught RP, so I can´t change it. 
Very interesting topic, by the way!
Best regards,
Fernita.


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## panjabigator

I have read that it is difficult to achieve a native accent when you learn a language after the age of ten.  Since many of us are doing this right now, how many of you have achieved a native accent or are quite good at it (French4Beth )?  How did you do it?


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## Etcetera

Hi Panjabigator! 
My first year at the University was devoted completely to the study of the English pronunciation. We were doing various exercises, listening to records, watching classical British films (such as Pride & Prejudice), and what not. It was really effective, but it seems that to achieve a native accent one should spend some time abroad, in order to have more practice.


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## claudine2006

panjabigator said:


> I have read that it is difficult to achieve a native accent when you learn a language after the age of ten. Since many of us are doing this right now, how many of you have achieved a native accent or are quite good at it (French4Beth )? How did you do it?


I've read the same article. 
I think if you study a language directly in the country where it's spoken you can reach a very good level. 
For example, my English pronunciation won't never be perfect because I started learning when I was 11-year-old with a very bad teacher who had never been in any English speaking country. I started to study Spanish in Spain and I think in one year I can speak like a native.


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## Brioche

claudine2006 said:


> I've read the same article.
> I think if you study a language directly in the country where it's spoken you can reach a very good level.
> For example, my English pronunciation won't never be perfect because I started learning when I was 11-year-old with a very bad teacher who had never been in any English speaking country. I started to study Spanish in Spain and I think in one year I can speak like a native.


 
If your mother tongue is Italian, then the sound system of Spanish is really not very different. Learn to say Spanish J and that's about it.


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## englishman

panjabigator said:


> I have read that it is difficult to achieve a native accent when you learn a language after the age of ten. Since many of us are doing this right now, how many of you have achieved a native accent or are quite good at it (French4Beth )?  How did you do it?



Surely the only way to know would be to spend time with a few native speakers, and ask them to assess your accent ? I don't suppose many people have the opportunity to do that. But given that you added "are quite good at it", I'll raise my hand, since it's so subjective that noone could argue with me.


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## claudine2006

Brioche said:


> If your mother tongue is Italian, then the sound system of Spanish is really not very different. Learn to say Spanish J and that's about it.


The grammar constructions are not different, but the sounds are very different.  I know a lot of Italians who speak (or try to speak) Spanish with a strong Italian accent.


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## konungursvia

I think it can be done at any age if you have a love and talent for languages, as we all do here for the most part. As a language teacher I notice that monoglots have great difficulty learning a perfect accent after puberty; but I think this is partly social (not wanting to make funny sounds in front of others), partly psychological (the attitude that "my bad accent is good enough for me") and only partly psycholinguistics (an inability to hear and reproduce foreign sounds well).

  So yes, it can be done! I learned French at 16, Spanish at 22, and Cantonese at 33. All with a great accent, deemed perfect by native speakers (except my Chinese vocabulary is really small)


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## Sallyb36

I think it has a lot to do with our ability as mimics as well, if someone is good at mimicing others voices in their own language they should be able to speak a foreign language with a good accent.


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## ireney

Well, I don't know if I should raise my hand or not
My accent in English is rather Greek with hmmm English overtones (you know, the ones that you hear in posh movies and suchlike)
My French accent is tros Greque but passable (in Marseilles at least but I don't know if that counts )
My Spanish accent is very good I've been told (which is not difficult for a Greek really) but I know next to nothing in Spanish so accent is the least of my concerns
Any effort to pronounce Portuguese or German had my friends in stitches and I'm afraid I'm too tone deaf to ever really get all the three "tones" of the Chinese (ascending, flat and descending I mean) but I'm working on it.

On the whole nope, I don't think I'll ever sound as a native of another country (unless we're talking about Cyprus but that's a different matter since I can get away with not knowing all of their idioms and it's just a case of pronouncing some letters a bit more nasaly).


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## Thomas F. O'Gara

There are two items that we're all overlooking in this discussion, IMHO. One is that some cultures tend to be more inclusive than others. The other is that the speakers of some languages are more willing to tolerate pronunciation differences than others.

It's true that no matter how well you speak Japanese you'll never be accepted as a native, and this has more to do with the self-image that Japanese have than with your linguistic ability. In Russia, on the other hand, you are likely to be positively encouraged to assimilate, because it is considered normal to assimilate people of different ethnic background - perhaps a legacy of the Soviet era, and maybe it doesn't apply in every case, but all other things being equal, this has been my experience.

Similarly, I have found that despite the vast ethnic differences in Hispanic America, a gringo is a gringo, as if he had it branded on his forehead. However, I have found the contrary in Brazil, and I have been mistaken for a Brazilian more than once.

As for the matter of toleration of odd pronunciation, I have found that this is a common experience in India and the Middle East. I have been asked whether I was an Arab more than once, even though I don't look at all like an Arab (at least I don't think so) and my accent - to be honest - is atrocious. It could be that I was just being flattered, but I don't really think that Arabs are prone to do that sort of thing in these circumstances.  I was bemused by this and eventually came to the conclusion that this was probably because Arabs in general were aware of the ethnic and linguistic differences in the Arab world, and simply by virtue of the fact that I spoke some Arabic they assumed I must be from some other Arab country that they weren't familiar with. I've had the same experience speaking Hindi.


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## skatoulitsa

I think there are a lot of things that count into whether you can sound like a native or not. The age for one plays a big role. This is not just about learning the language, but really living in a foreign speaking environment. In general, people after their teens find it more difficult to adopt a new accent.
Also the relation between your native language and the new language is of huge importance. I've known english since elementary school, and I've been living in the US for 3 years already, but I could never be mistaken for a native by a native speaker. My accent is not very strong though as it is for most greeks, and I have been mistaken for a native by non-native speakers. However, when I started learning spanish (~a year ago), even just reapeating words that my hispanic friends said, they were all amazed by how good my accent was. This is just because the sounds of the two languages are very very similar.
Finally, some people just have talent in imitating accents. I am horrible at that. Even if I go to cyprus, where they speak greek, I couldn't sound like a native speaker. Their accent over there is very different than in greece, and I'm just really bad at imitating accents.


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## !netko!

I think grammar can be successfully acquired at any age. Sounding native is much trickier. My belief is it depends on your mother tongue and how often you listen to and use the language you're learning. It's nothing strange for Croatians to have a ''native English speaker'' accent, the American variety and better command of grammar than some native English speakers. I have been to English-speaking countries (not the USA though), and people generally thought I was American. 

The reasons for my sounding like a native English speaker are:

-TV; as a kid I was a TV addict, and 85% of TV in Croatia is in English
-Croatian is a very good mother tongue for perfecting foreign accents (not for everyone, but you'll see a fair share of American 10-year-olds)
-learning from an early age: I started when I was 8

But TV is what really did it, I think. It's incredibly easy to learn a foreign language if you hear it almost as often as your native one.

I don't know a lot of Spanish or Italian grammar-wise but the accents are extremely easy for many Croatians to emulate so I sound quite well, even though I've only been studying them for a short time (exposure's important here also: Mexican soap-operas on TV when I was a kid, the proximity of Italy...)

French is another thing completely. Its sound is completely different than the one of my language or any of my foreign languages. Besides there is pretty much zero exposure to French where I come from. So I think the door to sounding native-like may well be closed for me.


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## Lugubert

Science be damned regarding the non-acquisition of native fluency/accent post-12. I learned English in school, starting at the age of 11. First visit to England when about 20. I don't think that my teacher's accent was all that impeccable. German from 13; no exposure to Germany until 23. Knew no Dutch until I went to Amsterdam at 24.

Gimme a week or two in England, and I challenge you to distinguish me from a native. Your successful criterion (if any) would probably be that I make too few grammatical errors. Most of the time, I pass as a Midlander. I'm so close to a native that the real indigenous people delight in finding errors. I once asked for a plastic bag when buying groceries, and the cashier handed me one of those small flimsy transparent thingies. She immediately corrected me, "Carrier bag", and bade me forgive the cheek.

Once, in Switzerland, at the age of 29, a sales girl asked me in German, "Aren't you a Swede?" I was deeply embarrassed, but she explained that she was as well, and had spotted my very open 'a' vowels.

In German as well as in English, I get away with using severe colloquialisms, because my accent is far sloppier and thus more native than what's taught in schools. A high German (foreign) speaker would be laughed at if using the expression "Schwein" for "Glück" 'luck'. I make it. Few furriners would, like me, say "I haven't the faintest", but would use the standard (?) "I haven't the faintest idea". A dead giveaway.

When I had lived there for almost two months, a native Amsterdammer was ever so happy to spot me as a non-native and asked me if I knew how he found me out. It turned out that it was on one word that I had picked from a dictionary.

I explain (or excuse) my ability by saying that I have been successful in choosing my genetic material. But I think that I have been making about as much as possible out of it. Anyway, the age limit is a myth.


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## panjabigator

Lugubert, I'm glad to hear that is a myth. What would be probably less embarrassing would be if she had asked you in Swedish. 

I'm so bad with British accents (i.e., Madonna will pass as British for me with her phony accent) that if I met you in the US, you'd probably be a native Britisher to me. 

I will never be accepted as a native in Panjabi or Hindi. Why? I have an American accent, although it's not that bad. It's simply a result of being born and raised in a family that predominantly spoke English with me. Even amongst themselves. So therefore whenever I speak with my parents in Panjabi and Hindi (the only languages I really use with them, but sometimes English) I have to try and remember to enunciate so that my pronunciation may improve. 

There have been several occasions that I have spoken to older Indians in Pakistanis in Hindi/Urdu/Panjabi and been asked when I left India. That was a good feeling. I was recognized as a native. My only assumption is that they probably felt that no kid my age would speak to them in another language than English.


----------



## Athaulf

!netko! said:


> It's nothing strange for Croatians to have a ''native English speaker'' accent, the American variety and better command of grammar than some native English speakers. I have been to English-speaking countries (not the USA though), and people generally thought I was American.



Interestingly, my experiences are quite different. I'm a native speaker of Croatian, having learned English since the age of eleven, and I've been living in Canada for the past few years. I've discussed the issues of language with many Croatians here in Toronto, and sometimes I even ask native speakers out of curiosity what they think about the accents of some of my fellow Croatians. Thus, along with my personal experiences, I think I've seen a sufficient sample to draw some conclusions. 

From what I've seen, the only Croatians here whose English accent is indistinguishable from native speakers are those who moved here before the age of twelve, without exception. Even people who came when they were as young as 13 or 14 retain an accent recognizable as foreign, even though their English tends to be overall better than their Croatian. My accent has changed little even after almost four years of living here, and people still know that I'm a foreigner as soon as I open my mouth; this holds for all people I know who came here as adults, even though most of them (myself included) had had an exposure to English similar to yours before coming here. (Although admittedly, I don't think any of them had started learning English as early as you.) As for the situation back home in Croatia, I've never met anyone there with anything resembling a native English speaker accent, except of course a few people who grew up in English-speaking countries.

Thus, please don't take offense from what I'm going to say, but from what you write, I find it very hard to believe that your accent would really be perceived as native anywhere in North America. (Also, which particular native accent would you have? I've been told by native speakers that there are significant differences between various North American accents, although as a non-native speaker, I'm unable to perceive them except when it comes to the greatest extremes.) Maybe if you were listening to a lot of TV in English before the age of 12, you did somehow manage to pick a really good accent, but I would be surprised if you could really pass as a native speaker with it. Furthermore, I also find it hard to believe that your vocabulary is so good that you wouldn't occasionally find yourself not knowing the words for various trivial everyday items (I still do -- this is by far the most difficult part of vocabulary to acquire if one has never been part of an English-speaking household, and it will sooner or later betray any non-native speaker). 

As for the command of grammar by the Croatian speakers of English, I think you're greatly exaggerating. For example, I've never met a Croatian who knows how to use the English articles properly and who wouldn't be natively bilingual, with an English major, or with at least several years of professional practice in some English-speaking country. Of course, non-native speakers don't make the usual mistakes of natives because they aren't in the books, but they tend to make many other ones, even when they've already been fluent for a long time. Croatians might be pretty good English speakers on average compared to some other countries, but those with a good command of English grammar are extremely rare.


All this is of course not to say that I find my accent as a problem -- on the contrary, I've never felt any negative reactions to it here in Canada. But the fact is that I've never met anyone who hasn't grown up among native speakers without at least a slight foreign accent.


----------



## Pedro y La Torre

It's possible, but unlikely. 90 per cent of people who learn a language will never get it right. Some though, are born with the ability to grasp different accents.


----------



## Musical Chairs

I don't think it's completely impossible, but very close to it. It also depends on who you are, what your first language was, and what language you're trying to learn.

For example, I have seen Caucasian people who go on Japanese TV who can speak Japanese like a native speaker, or with very few mistakes. People are very impressed by this, but they won't think of them as Japanese, because they don't look like it. There, speaking the language like a native speaker isn't the only thing that influences whether people will really think of you as one of their own.

Also, I think speaking Chinese like a native speaker when your first language was English/French/Spanish/etc. is the next closest thing to impossible. You may have good pronunciation/inflection sometimes, but you'll never be able to speak fast enough and with the right words and the right grammar and not make mistakes. However, I know a Korean person (an adult) who spoke Japanese perfectly after only 2 years of living in Japan. I think this has to do with the fact that those languages are more related to each other than English and Chinese are, for example.

I think a person who speaks English with an Indian accent only because everyone in her environment spoke it that way should technically be considered a native speaker, but people in the US wouldn't think she was if they only heard her and knew nothing else about him/her. There was someone I knew exactly like this in my class and people commented on her accent and said "your accent is so cool!" (which is nice that people like her accent, but it also means that they see something that makes her different from them).

Someone who would automatically be considered a native (American English) speaker by a native (American English) speaker would:
- understand the language without trying. It's passive. You could be half-asleep and you could still understand what someone just said and reply accordingly. 
- be able to speak for hours and hours (not just a few minutes at a time) and not make mistakes that would make people question his/her fluency
- use appropriate words: some words make sense and are gramatically correct but would sound strange in certain contexts, especially in speech
- speaks just like the person who is listening (no accent), or has an accent that the listener automatically recognizes as something distinctly from the US (Southern, ghetto, etc.)
- understand expressions, idioms, play on words
- understand slang, use slang appropriately (it's strange when people use it when they don't speak properly normally)
- use contractions easily and properly
- know how to emphasize certain words to get the point across
- at least _be able_ to speak fast (accent requirement above applies). Usually people speak faster if they are excited, mad, or if they know they have a time limit.
- understand people who speak fast to a certain extent (For example, sometimes I record my classes and play back the files 50% faster than the original version and I can still understand my teacher.)


----------



## nichec

Musical Chairs said:


> I don't think it's completely impossible, but very close to it. It also depends on who you are, what your first language was, and what language you're trying to learn.
> 
> For example, I have seen Caucasian people who go on Japanese TV who can speak Japanese like a native speaker, or with very few mistakes. People are very impressed by this, but they won't think of them as Japanese, because they don't look like it. There, speaking the language like a native speaker isn't the only thing that influences whether people will really think of you as one of their own.
> 
> Also, I think speaking Chinese like a native speaker when your first language was English/French/Spanish/etc. is the next closest thing to impossible. You may have good pronunciation/inflection sometimes, but you'll never be able to speak fast enough and with the right words and the right grammar and not make mistakes. However, I know a Korean person (an adult) who spoke Japanese perfectly after only 2 years of living in Japan. I think this has to do with the fact that those languages are more related to each other than English and Chinese are, for example.
> 
> I think a person who speaks English with an Indian accent only because everyone in her environment spoke it that way should technically be considered a native speaker, but people in the US wouldn't think she was if they only heard her and knew nothing else about him/her. There was someone I knew exactly like this in my class and people commented on her accent and said "your accent is so cool!" (which is nice that people like her accent, but it also means that they see something that makes her different from them).
> 
> Someone who would automatically be considered a native (American English) speaker by a native (American English) speaker would:
> - understand the language without trying. It's passive. You could be half-asleep and you could still understand what someone just said and reply accordingly.
> - be able to speak for hours and hours (not just a few minutes at a time) and not make mistakes that would make people question his/her fluency
> - use appropriate words: some words make sense and are gramatically correct but would sound strange in certain contexts, especially in speech
> - speaks just like the person who is listening (no accent), or has an accent that the listener automatically recognizes as something distinctly from the US (Southern, ghetto, etc.)
> - understand expressions, idioms, play on words
> - understand slang, use slang appropriately (it's strange when people use it when they don't speak properly normally)
> - use contractions easily and properly
> - know how to emphasize certain words to get the point across
> - at least _be able_ to speak fast (accent requirement above applies). Usually people speak faster if they are excited, mad, or if they know they have a time limit.
> - understand people who speak fast to a certain extent (For example, sometimes I record my classes and play back the files 50% faster than the original version and I can still understand my teacher.)


 
I wonder who can ever live up to your expectations

It was about two years ago that I first replied to this thread. Looking back now, I don't really like what I wrote before (it was a trying time for me, not that it matters much, yet.....), but I stay positive on this matter.

It's not easy, but you sure can master a second language. I myself have friends from different places who speak nearly perfect Chinese. And I do have the kind of experiences that the American friends of my close friends refuse to believe that AE is not my first language. (sadly, this would never happen in England.....it's difficult to get that accent once you are used to the American one)

I still think it's possible, that's my own opinion.


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## Musical Chairs

Well, after I made that list, I kept adding things and I realized how hard it is to define a native speaker. But still, I think many people have loose ideas on what makes someone a native speaker or what makes someone fluent. I've heard of people who apparently speak 4 to 6 languages "fluently" and I don't believe it. I know one person who claims to, and she definitely isn't fluent in English. She can get by but she definitely isn't fluent, and doesn't sound anything like a "native speaker."

But did your friends from different places speak for a long time? Did they speak a bit slowly? If you put them in a room with an angry yelling Chinese mother, could they still understand exactly what she said?


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## nichec

Musical Chairs said:


> Well, after I made that list, I kept adding things and I realized how hard it is to define a native speaker. But still, I think many people have loose ideas on what makes someone a native speaker or what makes someone fluent. I've heard of people who apparently speak 4 to 6 languages "fluently" and I don't believe it. I know one person who claims to, and she definitely isn't fluent in English. She can get by but she definitely isn't fluent, and doesn't sound anything like a "native speaker."
> 
> But did your friends from different places speak for a long time? Did they speak a bit slowly? If you put them in a room with an angry yelling Chinese mother, could they still understand exactly what she said?


 
Sure I understand your reluctance to believe in things like this. I myself have met my share of people who claim to speak fluent AE/Chinese/French but turn out to be a hugh disappointment.

It's not easy, as you said, to define "the way a native speaker speaks" (I think we both know this better than any one else here).

Well, I have never been in a room full of angry people shouting in Chinese with these friends of mine (what a scene) Yet I do think their Chinese is incredibly good (well, perhaps my expectations aren't too high to begin with......I'm someone with a soft heart)


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## Lugubert

As ever so often, there's the question of from what points of reference you define "native". A friend of mine came from East Asia to Sweden at the age of 8. You might find some rare and tiny mistakes in her grammar and sometimes a non-standard pronunciation, but none of them any worse than any mean value perfectly native Swede.

I have once for one hour or so fooled an Englishman who had lived for several years in Switzerland into thinking that I was a German native.

My conclusion/recommendation is, choose parents with good language genes, and don't grow up too much, but retain your innate baby capability of acquiring a(nother) mother tongue, and keep that capability alive.


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## alexacohen

I do sound like a native, and I was never treated like a foreigner in any of the countries I lived.
Except Paris, of course.
I made, and make, many mistakes. But native people make them, too.
Home is where the heart is. I wanted to belong, so I belonged. 
I grew up listening to a variety of languages and accents, so maybe this is the reason it's easy for me.
But I don't know. Maybe some people have this ability, if it is an ability, and other people don't.


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## Linni

It may sound weird, but my uncle has lived in Australia for a long time (He moved to there before I was born; actually, I don't know when exactly he emigrated from the Czech Rep. to Australia.) and he's acquired English to such an extent that his Czech (his mother language!) is now affected by the English accent! His Czech just doesn't sound as Czech as it should (I hope you understand what I mean). When I hear him speak, it just seems to me that he sometimes talks like an English who's lived in the Czech Republic for many years and can talk (Czech) fluently, but his Czech is affected by the English dialect!


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## nichec

Linni said:


> It may sound weird, but my uncle has lived in Australia for a long time (He moved to there before I was born; actually, I don't know when exactly he emigrated from the Czech Rep. to Australia.) and he's acquired English to such an extent that his Czech (his mother language!) is now affected by the English accent! His Czech just doesn't sound as Czech as it should (I hope you understand what I mean). When I hear him speak, it just seems to me that he sometimes talks like an English who's lived in the Czech Republic for many years and can talk (Czech) fluently, but his Czech is affected by the English dialect!


 
That's what happened to me, without the emigrating part.
Nowadays, my grand parents can hardly understand my Taiwanese, and everyone tells me that my Chinese sounds funny (not native enough).....
God knows that's my mother language!!!

But well, I'm using other languages almost 24/7 due to both professional and personal reasons now, and that's probably the reason why.....


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## Athaulf

Linni said:


> It may sound weird, but my uncle has lived in Australia for a long time (He moved to there before I was born; actually, I don't know when exactly he emigrated from the Czech Rep. to Australia.) and he's acquired English to such an extent that his Czech (his mother language!) is now affected by the English accent! His Czech just doesn't sound as Czech as it should (I hope you understand what I mean). When I hear him speak, it just seems to me that he sometimes talks like an English who's lived in the Czech Republic for many years and can talk (Czech) fluently, but his Czech is affected by the English dialect!



This is a very frequent phenomenon -- and it's by no means a guarantee that his English is very good. People who live for many years in foreign countries without speaking their native language much will often change their native accent, regardless of how good their English becomes during that time. I've heard Croatian speakers whose Croatian has been significantly affected by English just like your uncle's Czech, even though their English is still far from anything resembling a native speaker's. Some English influence can be felt even in the speech of some of my Croatian friends here in Canada who have been here for only a few years. I have an unsubstantiated hypothesis that this might perhaps be a side-effect of trying too hard to mimic the native accent when speaking English.


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## Staarkali

My father were born in Den Haag (Netherlands) and moved to Detroit (USA) at the age of 17 where he stayed about a year before going back to Europe in Paris (France) where he settled; he is now 59. Except some mistakes about Le/la, both his French and English sound like native. I think the accent is not that difficult to get, the problem is more on specific grammar details.
His brother (my uncle) is married to a German woman and they now live in Germany (for more than 30 years now). But he still makes mistakes about German declension, which he will never master.
However both of them are fluent in these languages, they are at ease with using expressions as natives.

I believe the real problem in sounding native is the proper use of grammar specific points: genders, conjugation, declension...


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## Linni

Well, I have never heard my uncle's English (I don't meet him too often, although he spends (I guess) at least a half of the year in the Czech Rep. now.).
Anyway, I believe his English (at least the grammar part) must be perfect. It is not that difficult to acquire English grammar, especially if you have lived in an English speaking country for many years. 
I don't know, actually  - I have no experience about living in a foreign country. I just think that the most difficult thing about "sounding like a real native" is accent. 

(I am sorry for my English; feel free to correct it )


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## aleksk

Athaulf said:


> Interestingly, my experiences are quite different. I'm a native speaker of Croatian, having learned English since the age of eleven, and I've been living in Canada for the past few years. I've discussed the issues of language with many Croatians here in Toronto, and sometimes I even ask native speakers out of curiosity what they think about the accents of some of my fellow Croatians. Thus, along with my personal experiences, I think I've seen a sufficient sample to draw some conclusions.
> 
> From what I've seen, the only Croatians here whose English accent is indistinguishable from native speakers are those who moved here before the age of twelve, without exception. Even people who came when they were as young as 13 or 14 retain an accent recognizable as foreign, even though their English tends to be overall better than their Croatian. My accent has changed little even after almost four years of living here, and people still know that I'm a foreigner as soon as I open my mouth; this holds for all people I know who came here as adults, even though most of them (myself included) had had an exposure to English similar to yours before coming here. (Although admittedly, I don't think any of them had started learning English as early as you.) As for the situation back home in Croatia, I've never met anyone there with anything resembling a native English speaker accent, except of course a few people who grew up in English-speaking countries.
> 
> Thus, please don't take offense from what I'm going to say, but from what you write, I find it very hard to believe that your accent would really be perceived as native anywhere in North America. (Also, which particular native accent would you have? I've been told by native speakers that there are significant differences between various North American accents, although as a non-native speaker, I'm unable to perceive them except when it comes to the greatest extremes.) Maybe if you were listening to a lot of TV in English before the age of 12, you did somehow manage to pick a really good accent, but I would be surprised if you could really pass as a native speaker with it. Furthermore, I also find it hard to believe that your vocabulary is so good that you wouldn't occasionally find yourself not knowing the words for various trivial everyday items (I still do -- this is by far the most difficult part of vocabulary to acquire if one has never been part of an English-speaking household, and it will sooner or later betray any non-native speaker).
> 
> As for the command of grammar by the Croatian speakers of English, I think you're greatly exaggerating. For example, I've never met a Croatian who knows how to use the English articles properly and who wouldn't be natively bilingual, with an English major, or with at least several years of professional practice in some English-speaking country. Of course, non-native speakers don't make the usual mistakes of natives because they aren't in the books, but they tend to make many other ones, even when they've already been fluent for a long time. Croatians might be pretty good English speakers on average compared to some other countries, but those with a good command of English grammar are extremely rare.
> 
> 
> All this is of course not to say that I find my accent as a problem -- on the contrary, I've never felt any negative reactions to it here in Canada. But the fact is that I've never met anyone who hasn't grown up among native speakers without at least a slight foreign accent.





I know exactly what you're talking about. I moved to Australia only last year, in my late 20s, and although I've learnt and spoken English since early childhood, people know that I'm not a native speaker as soon as I open my mouth. They keep telling me that my English is the best they've heard spoken by a foreigner, but any one of them can tell straight away that I'm not a native speaker - despite my effort and careful study of pronunciation patterns and a lot of practice - especially involving those English vowels that do not exist in Macedonian. However, I try to compensate by building up a rich scholar vocabulary - and I think its comprehensiveness (both breadth and depth) has exceeded that of many native speakers here. Of course, I sometimes fail when it comes to slang and understanding typical Australian words and expressions, non-existent in other varieties of English. 

By the way, you're lucky to live in Canada from the language aspect - Canadian English is known as the most neutral and easiest of all English accents to assimilate - some people consider certain varieties of Canadian English (Vancouver) as the most neutral and acceptable English, a universal English. You should hear Australian English - I've met Americans and Canadians here at University, native English speakers, that sometimes have so much trouble understanding and hearing correctly. Many Americans watch Australian movies with subtitles. But of course, it takes much less time for them to quickly adapt to the new environment. Australian English really is a challenge for someone like me who grew up watching American movies and listening to American music. It was quite a shock at the beginning. Now it's normal, except that not a day goes by without someone asking me where I am from - 90% guess that I'm from Germany - I hear that every day as well, who knows why...And then I have to explain where Macedonia is, because nobody has the slightest idea


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## NextNoName

Whodunit said:


> Another problem is if you will ever be accepted like a native speaker if everyone knows that you aren't one.



This is a good question. My conclusion is if one learns a language one certainly has a lot of motivation to do it because it is not easy at all. (I would argue that it is not easy even for a child because it is easier to learn one language instead of two or three.) The motivation might be interest to know a different culture, might be economic, intellectual (e.g. mental exercise), etc. It would not be for the purpose of being accepted by other people which you have no control over.


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## Athaulf

Linni said:


> Well, I have never heard my uncle's English (I don't meet him too often, although he spends (I guess) at least a half of the year in the Czech Rep. now.).
> Anyway, I believe his English (at least the grammar part) must be perfect.



I don't know about your uncle (who might well be an excellent English speaker), but a long period of living in a country is definitely not a guarantee of high proficiency in its language. I've known people who spent many years living and working in Germany, and whose German never improved beyond pidgin level. I've even known some who never learned enough German to sustain even the most basic communication. I've observed a similar phenomenon here in Canada too (although to a lesser extent, since here I've been socializing mainly with people whose jobs demand relatively good English skills). 

Most immigrants and "guest workers" learn the language of the host country only up to a certain level, and then stop improving regardless of how much longer they live there. This level, of course, varies greatly -- it's determined primarily by the requirements of one's job and circle of friends (hence menial workers who spend their free time with other members of their own ethnic group tend to stay at the pidgin level forever). However, it's _always _below the level of actual native speakers, even if we don't take the accent into account. Even those immigrants who keep working on improving their language constantly can only converge ever closer to the real native level, but never reach it fully. 



> It is not that difficult to acquire English grammar, especially if you have lived in an English speaking country for many years.


There are things in English grammar, like e.g. the prepositions or articles, that are very difficult to acquire even approximately correctly. It takes years of practice to become able to get them right 80-90% of the time, and I don't think it's ever possible to get them right 100% of the time, like a native speaker, let alone naturally and seamlessly, without double-checking. Of course, every language has such quirks that will sooner or later betray any non-native speaker. 



> I don't know, actually  - I have no experience about living in a foreign country. I just think that the most difficult thing about "sounding like a real native" is accent.


Another hurdle that is almost impossible to overcome are the parts of colloquial vocabulary which are rarely used outside the household -- words for various household tools, gadgets, kitchen items, parts of furniture, etc. Native speakers normally learn these words as kids, but a non-native speaker who has never been a member of an English-speaking household will have huge gaps in this part of vocabulary, which are extremely difficult to fill. My English vocabulary is good enough to discuss sciences, philosophy, arts, and other "intellectual" topics as comfortably as a native speaker, but I still sometimes lack words to describe some trivial actions involving household items. Most of my non-native speaker friends from around here are in a similar situation.


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## ernest_

Athaulf said:


> However, it's _always _below the level of actual native speakers, even if we don't take the accent into account. Even those immigrants who keep working on improving their language constantly can only converge ever closer to the real native level, but never reach it fully.




Most of the time, but there is a small minority of people who can actually speak _better_ than natives do. For instance, I recall hearing a woman on the radio -- she spoke so clearly with beautifully constructed sentences to the extent that I thought she must be a librarian or something like that (those people always speak better than the rest of us) but couldn't quite say where she was from.  The presenter must be thinking the same, because he asked her, and she said that she was from Madrid and that she had never been to Catalonia. She was self-taught, apparently. And I can think of several other examples of non-natives who are able to write and speak at an average native level if not better than that. For instance, Matthew Tree, an English writer and journalist who came to Catalonia in the 1980's. He appears regularly in radio shows and on the telly as well.  My father didn't believe me when I told him that he was English. He thought his name was fake.


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## orlando09

Im  in my 30s and have been learning French since I was about eight, and have lived in France for just over two years in total (including the last 6 months). I also have a good university French degree. I think I have only a slight English accent (I am also good at mimicking voices/accents generally, which I think helps) - French people have said before that you could probably tell I wasn't French but it's not obvious I'm English, I think on the odd occasion people have also just thought I might be from a different region. I plan to do some work with a French teacher (who tutors French people in French) to try and pinpoint what it is about my accent/intonation that is not "perfect". this is for my own amusement and because, for example, I am interested in amateur acting, rather than that I think this is vital. Interestingly though, for the "you can't learn a good accent after 10/12 etc" theories, I think my Italian accent is slightly better again, even though I've spent less time there and have a smaller vocabulary, and started learning aged 18. The Italian accent seems to come very easily to me and I think mine is more or less indistinguishable from a native, although, for example, I think I might make the occasional error in stress on syllables, which is more important in Italian than in French. 

I have a colleague who lived in France, with English parents, all his childhood and his accent in French is more English than mine, which is a surprise to me. I guess you always have one language which is the one you most naturally think/express yourself in, and I think it's hard to be perfect in others. i wonder if I managed to immerse myself in France/French enough to be perfect, whether I would lose some facility for English in the process... I am most suspicious of people who claim to speak perfectly fluently in many languages. I have another colleague who has lived here about 20 years as an adult and speaks with the French equivalent of Antoine de Caune's  English (that is to say he speaks quite good French with a completely English accent). I think it's partly a qauestion of having an ear/aptitude for mimicking sounds.


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## Musical Chairs

orlando09 said:


> I guess you always have one language which is the one you most naturally think/express yourself in, and I think it's hard to be perfect in others. i wonder if I managed to immerse myself in France/French enough to be perfect, whether I would lose some facility for English in the process... I am most suspicious of people who claim to speak perfectly fluently in many languages.



I don't believe it at all. It just isn't humanly possible to speak like a native speaker in six languages. I just think "okay, whatever" when people say that. I think two, _maybe_ three is maximum for speaking like native speakers of those languages.


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## Staarkali

Musical Chairs said:


> I don't believe it at all. It just isn't humanly possible to speak like a native speaker in six languages. I just think "okay, whatever" when people say that. I think two, _maybe_ three is maximum for speaking like native speakers of those languages.


I heard from various sources it was possible to make at most 2 languages yours, although its possible to master much more.


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## Musical Chairs

Staarkali said:


> I heard from various sources it was possible to make at most 2 languages yours, although its possible to master much more.



It makes sense. You only have 24 hours in a day and so many years in your life.


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## nichec

Musical Chairs said:


> I don't believe it at all. It just isn't humanly possible to speak like a native speaker in six languages. I just think "okay, whatever" when people say that. I think two, _maybe_ three is maximum for speaking like native speakers of those languages.


 
I have been thinking about this.....

I used to be very close to someone who's from Mexico, which means his mother language is Spanish (or the Mexican-Spanish, if you prefer), he spent some years in the USA when he was young, and then he moved to Paris and spent most of his adult life there. Our mutual French friends told me more than once that he speaks French as a French. I personally think that his AE is really really really good, since we always communicate in English. And I suppose his Spanish isn't bad either, being his mother language......

We all know that Latin languages are very similar in many ways, which makes it easier for someone who speaks Spanish to learn, say, Italian and other Latin languages......

So, I'm thinking, just thinking, maybe it's not totally impossible after all, and that makes me want to kill them all (Can you believe how lucky they are)


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## jonquiliser

Musical Chairs said:


> Originally Posted by orlando09
> I guess you always have one language which is the one you most naturally think/express yourself in, and I think it's hard to be perfect in others. i wonder if I managed to immerse myself in France/French enough to be perfect, whether I would lose some facility for English in the process... I am most suspicious of people who claim to speak perfectly fluently in many languages.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't believe it at all. It just isn't humanly possible to speak like a native speaker in six languages. I just think "okay, whatever" when people say that. I think two, _maybe_ three is maximum for speaking like native speakers of those languages.
Click to expand...


Well, isn't there a difference between being fluent, and being/sounding "like a native" (which, by the way, in itself is a very tricky concept)? I mean, I am - and I would really say I am - fluent in about four languages, meaning: I can express myself pretty much as I want to (and not only by using a limited vocabulary in ways that I make myself understood "somehow"), I in general understand without problems, I can write in those languages with a decent orthography etc. Now, one of them _is_ my "native language" (but not necessarily the one I express myself best in  - all depends on what I am talking about). In two of them people have believed me to be a native (the largest difference between me and natives is, I believe, the _kind_ of mistakes I make - they make certain, I other mistakes). The last one; a native wouldn't believe me to be a native too, not by a long shot. But no one has thus far denied I am fluent in that language. I would say I am fluent in all four. What's the problem?  (Btw, I also think and dream in all four, sometimes all mixed up, sometimes one at a time, sometimes...)

And I am convinced one can acquire an accent indistinguishable from "natives", even after the age of 11-12 or whatever it is those theories dictate. I have accents in some of the languages I am non-fluent in, which have led natives to believe I'm a native. I'm now talking languages I learnt around the age of 20 and up. All depends on personal input and individual traits, interests, capacities and previous knowledge/exposure.


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## orlando09

Yes, I guess it all depends what is understood by 'fluent' - I suppose the best description, as you say, is if you can communicate everything you want to say in the language and understand everything that is said to you - if you can do that in 4 languages, that's great. Being taken for a native is not the be-all and end-all. I was thinking the same thing today about how some natives in French probably make some grammatical errors that I don't make, however the errors I do make are likely to be typical of an English person as opposed to a careless/casual/ or not all that well-educated French person. I just had a lesson with a teacher I want to work with, and I think it's going to be really helpful, she pointed out several little things that I was not really aware of that make me sound slightly foreign, but she said it would be pure "fignolage" (finishing touches), which is cool, becasue that's just what I want.


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## Athaulf

ernest_ said:


> Most of the time, but there is a small minority of people who can actually speak _better_ than natives do. For instance, I recall hearing a woman on the radio -- she spoke so clearly with beautifully constructed sentences to the extent that I thought she must be a librarian or something like that (those people always speak better than the rest of us) but couldn't quite say where she was from.  The presenter must be thinking the same, because he asked her, and she said that she was from Madrid and that she had never been to Catalonia. She was self-taught, apparently. And I can think of several other examples of non-natives who are able to write and speak at an average native level if not better than that. For instance, Matthew Tree, an English writer and journalist who came to Catalonia in the 1980's. He appears regularly in radio shows and on the telly as well.  My father didn't believe me when I told him that he was English. He thought his name was fake.



I guess there are isolated cases like this, but I'm sure that they are extremely rare, and this is certainly not something a typical language learner can realistically hope to achieve, no matter how much effort is put into it. I live in an English-speaking city in which a lot of the population consists of immigrants from all over the world, and I have yet to meet a non-native speaker who was exposed to the language after around the age of 12 and who doesn't have a recognizable foreign accent and isn't making occasional errors that clearly betray non-nativeness.


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## Athaulf

Musical Chairs said:


> I don't believe it at all. It just isn't humanly possible to speak like a native speaker in six languages. I just think "okay, whatever" when people say that. I think two, _maybe_ three is maximum for speaking like native speakers of those languages.



I also don't believe that it's possible to be a native speaker of more than 2-3 languages (if exposed to more than that, kids will learn new ones at the expense of completely forgetting others), but it's certainly possible to master much more than that. By "master" I mean the ability to fluently converse and write on any topic with a very low error rate, except for the accent. There have been people who mastered a dozen or so languages in this sense.


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## Athaulf

orlando09 said:


> I was thinking the same thing today about how some natives in French probably make some grammatical errors that I don't make, however the errors I do make are likely to be typical of an English person as opposed to a careless/casual/ or not all that well-educated French person.



In colloquial language, it may well be the _lack_ of certain "mistakes" that betrays one as a foreigner. I don't know about French, but for example, in Croatian, there are large differences in vocabulary and grammar between the standard and colloquial language. A foreigners who learns the standard Croatian (which is I guess the only kind that is taught in textbooks and courses) will have to additionally learn to make quite a lot of common colloquial "mistakes" if he doesn't want to sound oddly bookish when speaking to people in real life.


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## kirsitn

Athaulf said:


> By "master" I mean the ability to fluently converse and write on any topic with a very low error rate, except for the accent.



To me it's the opposite; I'm usually able to speak a language with little or no accent, but I don't necessarily have the vocabulary that's required to be taken for a native speaker.


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## Musical Chairs

With all that said, I think it's fair to say you speak a language if you can easily have good conversations with people in it. I would say my mom speaks English, even though she has an accent, needs to ask what things are once in a while, and doesn't get jokes sometimes.

For me, I study French only because I think it's cool, fun, and interesting, not because I want to sound like a native speaker. I guess that's what I'm inevitably working towards if I practice it a lot, but that's not my ultimate goal, and I don't ever expect to be like one. I get what I want out of it every day, because all I want is to have fun with it.

To me it's the opposite; I'm usually able to speak a language with little or no accent, but I don't necessarily have the vocabulary that's required to be taken for a native speaker.

I can say a few words without an accent (I know because I sound exactly like the recording) but everything falls apart when I try to say sentences. Though, I would expect this to be the same with many people since saying two words is obviously easier than saying ten words.


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## sinclair001

One of the clues of acquiring the language in the way we called native depends upon cortical plasticity. As we get older, the language learning abilities diminish. Is awesome the language difference between 1 year and 5 year old children.
http://www.learnmem.org/cgi/reprint/9/5/253.pdf?ck=nck


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## tom_in_bahia

My grandmother moved to the US from Naples, Italy when she was in her very early 20s. I remember our conversations before she passed away when I was 15. She never lost her accent, but her vocabulary was quite large. Some distinctive things that stayed with her, perhaps because they caught on with my father and aunts, was her use of calques like "close the light" and the use of the words nice and beautiful to describe food and situations in which a native speaker might use "delicious" or "great."


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## panjabigator

Musical Chairs said:


> I don't believe it at all. It just isn't humanly possible to speak like a native speaker in six languages. I just think "okay, whatever" when people say that. I think two, _maybe_ three is maximum for speaking like native speakers of those languages.



It is perfectly possible in India where children commonly receive input in three languages.  And they are perfectly fluent and native.  Some speak with an "accent" but it's still perfectly native.


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## Musical Chairs

I also think there's a distinction between _children_ who "speak three languages" and _adults_ who "speak three languages." A four-year-old is not expected to have the vocabulary or the knowledge of the language of a native speaker (or even do things that adults do, like make arguments, gossip, explain complex emotions, tell long stories about their experiences, etc), so it's easier to say that the child speaks "like a native speaker" or "is fluent." Just because a child receives input in three languages, doesn't mean that he is a native speaker in three languages or will grow up to be like native speakers of three different languages. And where, how, and for how long are they "receiving input" from these languages? These things tend to make a difference.

And if you are to be recognized as a native speaker when people know nothing else about you, you can't have an accent that native speakers aren't familiar with as a widely accepted, established accent of their language (like British, Southern, ghetto). As far as they know, you're not a native speaker. The Indian girl in my class who spoke English with an Indian (Hindi) accent said that sometimes people can't understand her because of her accent (a good sign that natives won't "accept" her as a native speaker, at least at first).


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## nichec

Musical Chairs said:


> I also think there's a distinction between _children_ who "speak three languages" and _adults_ who "speak three languages." A four-year-old is not expected to have the vocabulary or the knowledge of the language of a native speaker (or even do things that adults do, like make arguments, gossip, explain complex emotions, tell long stories about their experiences, etc), so it's easier to say that the child speaks "like a native speaker" or "is fluent." Just because a child receives input in three languages, doesn't mean that he is a native speaker in three languages or will grow up to be like native speakers of three different languages. And where, how, and for how long are they "receiving input" from these languages? These things tend to make a difference.
> 
> And if you are to be recognized as a native speaker when people know nothing else about you, you can't have an accent that native speakers aren't familiar with as a widely accepted, established accent of their language (like British, Southern, ghetto). As far as they know, you're not a native speaker. The Indian girl in my class who spoke English with an Indian (Hindi) accent said that sometimes people can't understand her because of her accent (a good sign that natives won't "accept" her as a native speaker, at least at first).


 
Yes, I think in the end it all comes to this point: Do native speakers treat you like one of them, even when they know nothing about you?

There are signs of this, I found out that when some of my friends are talking to AE speakers, the person (native speaker) would slow down their speed or make an effort to be understood (choosing easy words, using simple tenses, avoiding slangs......) This often happens after two three sentences when they realize that they are not talking to a native speaker. (Ha! That's what happens when I speak French But I'm still working on it)

But again, I still think it's possible to be accepted and treated as a native speaker even when others (native speakers) know nothing about you but the way you speak. And I do believe there's individual difference on this matter.


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## Musical Chairs

nichec said:


> Yes, I think in the end it all comes to this point: Do native speakers treat you like one of them, even when they know nothing about you?
> 
> There are signs of this, I found out that when some of my friends are talking to AE speakers, the person (native speaker) would slow down their speed or make an effort to be understood (choosing easy words, using simple tenses, avoiding slangs....reminds me of Borat ) This often happens after two three sentences when they realize that they are not talking to a native speaker. (Ha! That's what happens when I speak French)  It makes sense though, because you want to make yourself understood, and the person wants to understand you. I actually like it when people do this, because obviously all I'll ask if I don't understand is for them to say it again or explain what they just said anyway. I don't find it insulting or anything. I think it's nice, actually. But I think you have to be considerably un-native sounding for people to do this to you.
> 
> But I still think it's possible to be treated as a native speaker by a stranger who knows nothing about you but the way you speaks. I also think this has something to do with individual difference. I was once introduced to someone who had been studying in the USA for eight years when I was in LA. I expected the girl to speak very good English since she spent more time there than me, but I soon found out that I could hardly make sense of anything she said in English.......



I know some people you'd expect to speak two languages equally well, but they don't. My Chinese friend came here when she was really little lives in a mostly Chinese-speaking household. She's actually a good writer, but she has a noticeable accent in English, and she can't speak Chinese well either. But people don't treat her like she's not a native speaker, because she's very competent when she speaks (her accent isn't so bad that you can't understand her), and at a reasonable speed too (pretty fast when she wants to).


----------



## nichec

I think "accent" is a funny thing.

Take me for example, I'm a native speaker of Taiwanese and Chinese, yet I have a very different accent from those from Mainland China, I would never be able to pass as a native speaker there. Actually, I have a northern Taiwan accent, which makes me sound different from those from southern Taiwan as well. Nowadays, I consider myself as an AE native speaker since I almost never use Taiwanese/Chinese in my life for such a long time now. Still, even though I'm confident I can fool everyone from Northern America, I'm not so sure how things would go if I'm to go to, say, Texas or somewhere else, and I definitely don't sound like a native speaker to a Londoner. The same thing goes to my French, I can carry a conversation with any stranger who's waiting for a bus somewhere in Paris, but I can't really catch the accent when I'm in Canada.

So, it's funny you should mention this, but I think "accent" is a very important and tricky thing when it comes to "being accepted and treated as a native speaker".


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## abovethelaws

see the question is where hes from, where he grew up and which languages he speaks.

a portuguese can grab a spanish dialect/accent quicker than a russian can , because russians stress different letters.


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## Sepia

Staarkali said:


> I heard from various sources it was possible to make at most 2 languages yours, although its possible to master much more.



3 Languages normally really should not be a problem - if you have access to good learning methods. This is pretty much what studies at the University of Barcelona confirm. 

No matter how good you are there will probably be some kind of accent left, just like we all have our dialects that sometimes not only give away from which part of the country we are from, but sometimes also which part of a bigger city. However, when you are good at it, lots and lots of people will not notice - I mean, they have to good at recognizing accents as well in order to notice. I often detect certain foreigen accents - especially people of English and Scandinavian mother tongues - where others take them for native speakers. And recently I was speaking with a Spanish woman in a Hotel and thought she was German. My wife (who also speaks a good deal of languages well) knew at once that she was Spanish.


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## eesegura

Edher said:


> Saludos,
> 
> After reading a few other threads (including this one), I kept reading about "nuances" of the language. But to me, it sounds quite vague. Can someone please give me a specific example about nuances that native English speakers use?
> 
> By the way, I thought Alaniss Morrissete was born in Ottawa, Canada.
> 
> Thanks,
> Edher


One nuance that comes to mind is that in English we say that two people get married to each other, while in Spanish they get married with each other (casarse con).  Also, in Spanish you put attention (poner atención), while in English you pay attention.


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## argentina84

"According to my linguistic teachers one will never sound like a native of another language, unless one has spoken in that language since his/her first to second childhood. Something related to the vocal chords already shaped according to the sounds of the mother tongue..."

           I learnt the same at college...Linguists say that if we start learning a language after we are 12 years old..we will never sound like a native...but who wants to sound like one? I think that we have to get proficient in a foreign language so as to be understood by other speakers of the language and that is allright. And then, just as someone mentioned...I love  hearing people speak Spanish with a foreign accent!!! ! And I feel honored when someone is interested in my first language. And then, foreigners are usually  very well accepted here. 

I have met lots of Americans who speak Spanish very well..but only one of them sounded like an "Argentinian" guy. I think he has a gift...a special talent.


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## panjabigator

argentina84 said:


> "According to my linguistic teachers one will never sound like a native of another language, unless one has spoken in that language since his/her first to second childhood. Something related to the vocal chords already shaped according to the sounds of the mother tongue..."
> 
> I learnt the same at college...Linguists say that if we start learning a language after we are 12 years old..we will never sound like a native...but who wants to sound like one? I think that we have to get proficient in a foreign language so as to be understood by other speakers of the language and that is allright. And then, just as someone mentioned...I love  hearing people speak Spanish with a foreign accent!!! ! And I feel honored when someone is interested in my first language. And then, foreigners are usually  very well accepted here.
> 
> I have met lots of Americans who speak Spanish very well..but only one of them sounded like an "Argentinian" guy. I think he has a gift...a special talent.



Having a trace accent can also be a sign of how hard you have worked to learn the languae.  Why would you want to sound like a native anyway?

What makes the native speaker status so desirable?  To me it is jut the accent, because everything else can be lerned, however an accent is difficult to replicate exactly.


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## IsaC

I think it depends on which is your native language because of the sounds that language has. This is because some languages have sounds that others don't and when you have never spoken a particular sound you'll never speak those words as a native. 

You can see the example of the leter "r" in english and in french. For a native french is very difficult to say an "r" as you say it in english.

But I believe that to some people that are native of some particular languages is possible to speak others as a native. I have a friend who speaks USA english as a native.

It's difficult but not impossible!


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## jonquiliser

panjabigator said:


> Having a trace accent can also be a sign of how hard you have worked to learn the languae.  Why would you want to sound like a native anyway?
> 
> What makes the native speaker status so desirable?  To me it is jut the accent, because everything else can be lerned, however an accent is difficult to replicate exactly.



I can think of a few good reasons. For example, once when I was in Sweden I heard from someone; "Oh, but your Swedish is very good!" I found it quite amusing, but I'm sure not everybody would. And to be honest, if I'd hear things like that too often, I also wouldn't be quite as amused anymore . Another, more dramatic, example comes to mind (I don't remember if it was mentioned in this or in some other thread), with a Manchester-born young lad who, on his arrival in the US, had to spend days to try and convince his school teachers that he actually was a native English speaker ! So there seems to be a clear desireability for a mother-tongue speaker of a language to be recognised as such! 

I know, I know... not very seriously meant. And I agree, an accent isn't bad. In fact, one of the persons whose English I love the most is an Austrian with a very marked accent. And it's just so wonderful to listen to! English with a Spanish accent can also be very enjoyable. And so on. Sometimes the mere fact of having an accent is attractive; it's somehow very personal. Everyone has a personal accent, of course; native or not, (nearly) no one sounds identical to someone else.

But working on one's pronounciation to get it more 'right' (after all, there are some limits to what will pass as 'correct') is also something of an interesting task, and it's fun when you get it to sound "right".

Then there's another thing, a little more sensitive. It can be frustrating to always be "the foreigner". Of course, questions can be entirely innocent and no offence meant (in fact, often these questions open up for conversation), but to always hear "so what are you doing here" or "so where are you from" can get tiresome. In a way, it can at times feel like one's staying in some place is being questioned, like "why are you here?". One of the things I realised the most when I came back to Finland after having lived abroad for quite some time, was that no one asks me what I am doing here. They ask what I do, but that I am here is never an issue. That's something of a relief. 

I can only imagine what it must be for people who have left their native countries under more dramatic circumstances, and are met with hostility in their new countries...


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## gliamo

Many interesting replies to this thread!

Why is it desirable to sound like a native speaker? For some, achieving such a level of proficiency is a mark of success; for others, it is to avoid discrimination.

Is it possible to sound like a native speaker? As far as  grammar and vocabulary are concerned: someone posted above that their teacher said noone is 100% fluent in their own language. However, the mistakes native speakers make are not necessarily those a learner would make! As for the accent, some gifted individuals can and will have no problem adopting a new accent, but most people I  know (including myself) reach a plateau, where there is no more improvement in terms of accent, and "natural" mistake due to their native language will always creep up here and there. This may be due in part to the fact that most expats are still in contact with their former culture.

(Also consider this: if you really want to speak like a native Irish for example, you'll have to first pick a county, then a town/city, and then a _barrio_ within the city. And then try to replicate the accent, manerisms, etc. Too much hard work".)


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## Sepia

You are right, it can be such a nuisance always to be treated as a foreigner - especially when you are being treated like a dumb foreigner who does not understand anything. I was only 6 when I started learning English, could speak the language fluently when I was about 11. In my late teens I spent a lot of time with US-Americans, but sometimes it was almost impossible to lead a normal conversation with them because they kept talking to me like they would to a child or somebody who only knew the basics of the language. This  was obviously unnecessary because I often even knew a thing or two about the English language and about their country that they did not even know. (I never had such problems with Aussies or British people). 
This prompted me to dig deeper into American phonetics - to the extent where I could usually have them believe I was American - if I didn't tell them otherwise - and I could usually also hear from their accents where they came from. That solved the problem.
---

It is nice to hear from a native speaker how well one speaks his language, but the moment really to look forward to, is when when they don't comment it any more.


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## badgrammar

jonquiliser said:


> Then there's another thing, a little more sensitive. It can be frustrating to always be "the foreigner". Of course, questions can be entirely innocent and no offence meant (in fact, often these questions open up for conversation), but to always hear "so what are you doing here" or "so where are you from" can get tiresome. In a way, it can at times feel like one's staying in some place is being questioned, like "why are you here?". One of the things I realised the most when I came back to Finland after having lived abroad for quite some time, was that no one asks me what I am doing here. They ask what I do, but that I am here is never an issue. That's something of a relief.



The only reason I sometimes wish I had no accent at all is because people who either don't know me very well, or who are not in the habit of talking with people who have accents, sometimes seem to be listening only to my accent, and not to the content of what I'm saying.  When I speak French, it feels totally natural, and I'm not thinking about it...  Maybe it's like when you have some physical characteristic (chosen, like a funky hair color or unchosen, like scars or a malformation), you forget about it most of the time.  But every time you encounter someone, they are noticing it, and probably not concentrating on what you're saying.  Then at some point you realize that they are fascinated by this thing that you have totally, completely forgotten, and which is totally beside the point and irrelevant to what you are trying to communicate.


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## Kajjo

Sepia said:


> It is nice to hear from a native speaker how well one speaks his language, but the moment really to look forward to, is when when they don't comment it any more.


 Very good description.

Kajjo


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## jonquiliser

badgrammar, I can entirely sympathise with that. And I too find Sepia's description pretty good, hit the head on the nail (or was it the nail on the head?)


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## Athaulf

badgrammar said:


> The only reason I sometimes wish I had no accent at all is because people who either don't know me very well, or who are not in the habit of talking with people who have accents, sometimes seem to be listening only to my accent, and not to the content of what I'm saying.



On the other hand, I sometimes successfully use my heavy accent and unusual idioms to hammer the point home even more effectively and intensively when speaking English.  So the opposite effect is also possible. 

However, besides all the factors mentioned in the previous posts, there is no doubt that being a native speker is an advantage in all professions in which rhetorical skills are important. Of course, it's not a strict requirement for any profession -- even top-level actors, politicians, or TV journalists sometimes have heavy foreign accents -- but everything else being equal, a foreign accent certainly is a disadvantage in such professions.

Furthermore, there is also the fact that not all foreign accents produce the same impression in native speakers, even when equally "heavy". What I have in mind are not various ethnic prejudices triggered by hearing specific accents (although they certainly exist!), but purely rhetorical qualities of one's speech that affect everyone, whether they want it or not. The  reason is that the phonology and prosody of one's native language may result in the tone of the second language being always shifted towards a particular rhetorical style. In my case, the prosody of my native Bosnian-Croatian dialect results in my English sounding loud, decisive, and straightforward, which is great when such qualities are required, but then I sound ridiculous when I try speaking in a soft, poetic, or emotional voice -- and I have the impression that with some other accents, it's exactly the other way around.  I would even dare say that certain foreign accents tend to result in a worse rhetorical style than others, because they tend to make the speech sound less vivid and more tiresome to listen to; of course, which accents those are, that depends on the target language in question. (I'm stepping on somewhat politically incorrect territory here, so _nomina sunt odiosa_; I'm sure everyone will be able to think of examples from their own native language).


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## Athaulf

gliamo said:


> (Also consider this: if you really want to speak like a native Irish for example, you'll have to first pick a county, then a town/city, and then a _barrio_ within the city. And then try to replicate the accent, manerisms, etc. Too much hard work".)



I think you're taking a too restrictive definition of a native speaker. For example, my accent and vocabulary in Croatian doesn't match any particular city -- nor even any particular larger geographic region -- and yet, nobody would ever doubt that I'm a native speaker. People who moved between different cities and regions and/or were exposed to different regional accents and dialects in their childhood and youth often end up speaking with some mixed dialect and accent that doesn't correspond to any particular regional variety. Yet, the way they speak is still distinctly native and they will absolutely never be confused for non-native speakers.


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## _forumuser_

I am surprised to see how many people actually buy the "will always have an accent if you start after 10-12 years of age" legend. Research of this kind is necessarily based on minuscule samples of the population and offers no basis for generalizations of any kind. People just like to bring it up because it comforts them to think their language is theirs, and theirs only. But it ain't. There's scores of linguistic chameleons out there. You can't spot them unless you see their passport.


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## Glitz

_forumuser_ said:


> I am surprised to see how many people actually buy the "will always have an accent if you start after 10-12 years of age" legend. Research of this kind is necessarily based on minuscule samples of the population and offers no basis for generalizations of any kind. People just like to bring it up because it comforts them to think their language is theirs, and theirs only. But it ain't. There's scores of linguistic chameleons out there. You can't spot them unless you see their passport.


 

I agree. I know way to many people in London that came over in their mid teens but  have managed to gain a completely London accent, to believe the whole 10-12 age thing.


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## Athaulf

_forumuser_ said:


> I am surprised to see how many people actually buy the "will always have an accent if you start after 10-12 years of age" legend. Research of this kind is necessarily based on minuscule samples of the population and offers no basis for generalizations of any kind. People just like to bring it up because it comforts them to think their language is theirs, and theirs only. But it ain't.



  But my experience entirely confirms this threshold at around 12 years of age. I know people who moved to Canada at ages of around 14, and they do have at least a slight foreign accent -- even though when they reach adulthood, their English ends up being overall better than their Croatian/Serbian when it comes to vocabulary and grammar. 

There is certainly no doubt that kids are far more capable of learning by pure immersion. A child placed in a foreign-language environment will soon start speaking the language even without being instructed in a systematic way like language courses do (although even this learning process won't be easy and effortless!). Such learning by pure immersion is impossible for adults. Who has ever learned to speak a language fluently and properly just by being around people who speak it?



> There's scores of linguistic chameleons out there. You can't spot them unless you see their passport.


While I'm sure that at least some such "lingusitic chameleons" exist, I'm also sure that these are very rare exceptions, since I've never met anyone like that personally. For the vast majority of immigrants and other language learners, this isn't something they can ever realistically hope to achieve.


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## Macunaíma

I have seen people who were born abroad and learned Portuguese from their parents or moved abroad when they were still young children who speak Portuguese with perfect pronunciation, even though they seldom have a chance to speak it. The Queen Sylvia of Sweden impressed everybody in her recent visit to Brazil. She's the daughter of a Brazilian mother, and although she was born in Germany and never lived here, she speaks Portuguese without a trace of a foreign accent. The same with Caio Koch-Weser, the former Finance Minister of Germany, who is Brazilian-born and moved to Germany when he was eight years old. His pronunciation is like that of any Brazilian born and bred here. However, both Mr. Koch-Weser and Queen Sylvia seem to have lost their feel as to the right word to use in each situation and make odd sentences sometimes.

On the other hand, I have met people who've lived here in Brazil for decades and are highly educated but whose accent is immediately recognizeable as foreigner. The bishop of my city's diocese is German and he claims he can speak eight languages fluently. I don't know about the other languages, but as far as Portuguese is concerned, I have never seen him commit the slightest grammar mistake or use a clumsy construction. He has a vast and rich vocabulary and expresses himself better than many educated native speakers I know. However, he has a German accent. 

I think we, as children, have an ability to learn phonemes which we seem to lose as we grow old, but I firmly believe that anyone who puts enough time and effort into it is capable of acquiring grammar and vocabulary.


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## _forumuser_

Athaulf said:


> But my experience entirely confirms this threshold at around 12 years of age..... Since I've never met anyone like that personally.



That is exactly the point. We base our theories on our limited experience of the world. You've never met an adult learner with a perfect accent. I, and apparently many other users on this thread, have. No research will convince me that something I've seen happening with my own eyes is impossible.


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## Macunaíma

I think the fact that most foreigners, even those who've been speaking a language for ages, don't go beyond a certain point in improving their accents and their fluency is because they no longer feel a need to. I mean, I don't mind having accent and making the odd mistake as long as I can make myself understood, and I guess so do many people. Very few people have the time or will to put so much effort into reaching perfection in speaking a foreign language, and maybe that explains why so very few are indeed perfect in their second languages. I must confess I'm one of those who couldn't be bothered. Most people are just busy with other aspects of their lives.


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## Athaulf

_forumuser_ said:


> That is exactly the point. We base our theories on our limited experience of the world. You've never met an adult learner with a perfect accent. I, and apparently many other users on this thread, have. No research will convince me that something I've seen happening with my own eyes is impossible.



I didn't claim it was impossible; I admit the possibility that _some_ people have managed to learn a perfect native accent in a foreign language as adults. My point was that this is a highly exceptional phenomenon, and that the overwhelming majority of language learners can never hope to reach that level. In contrast, learning a perfect native accent is the _normal _outcome for kids below 12 learning by immersion. Therefore, even if this age threshold is not absolute in the sense that some rare individuals do manage to overcome the accent even after this age, it is undeniable that this age represents a threshold for the vast majority of people.


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## badgrammar

I really agree with Athaulf.  I would never claim that it is _impossible_ to reach native fluency when you learn a language after the "threshold" period.  But it is improbable and exceptional.  A few people may reach that point, but how many?  One of the important concepts behind the whole threshold theory is that, above and beyond the ability to produce certain sounds in a non-native language, there is the ability to hear and distinguish  elements of language.

Have you ever been learning a language and someone tries to help you to pronounce a word?  They say it, you repeat it.  It sounds the same to you, but the person teaching you says it's not right.  You listen, you reproduce what you hear, but perhaps, more than the inability to produce the sound, you are unable to correctly pick up on/distinguish/identify the sound.  You don't hear it, your brain does not recognize it, and cannot identify it in the "catalogue" of sounds you are equipped with.

So, if you want to argue that you can learn a language at age 20 and attain a level of fluency that is totally native, okay.  It's not impossible.  But for a number of reasons, it is highly improbable, and very few people do it.  The fact that a few do does not discredit the "threshold" theory, it simply provides exceptions.


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## jonquiliser

Now I can't speak generally, I don't know how it works for everyone else. But in my experience, own and that of people I know, the "hearing" of the distinct sounds of other languages comes gradually. The first time someone tells you a word and you repeat it, it may sound all the same. But gradually you start to hear the differences the other person tells you are there. 

But maybe it's not like that for others. I obviously know it's not for everyone - but it's my impression that, at least in some cases, people may believe they will never get the pronounciation right, so they stop listening for those nuances of sounds...

I might be wrong though. But personally, I often find pronounciation to be the easiest part of learning a language... (provided you get sufficient exposure, that is).


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## viera

IsaC said:


> I think it depends on which is your native language because of the sounds that language has. This is because some languages have sounds that others don't and when you have never spoken a particular sound you'll never speak those words as a native.


 
I tend to agree with you. In France the Slavs are commonly considered to be particularly 'gifted' at learning languages. And I have come across a theory to corroborate this. Apparently the Slavic languages use many more phonemes (sounds) than English, French, etc., and so the learners possess a wider range of sounds to call upon when trying to imitate those of another language.

My own experience tends to confirm this. Growing up with two languages (English and Slovak), my sister and I had much less difficulty than our anglophone classmates in picking up the accent, when we started learning French at 10 and 11 years old, and can pass for natives in all three languages.


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## Sepia

_forumuser_ said:


> I am surprised to see how many people actually buy the "will always have an accent if you start after 10-12 years of age" legend. Research of this kind is necessarily based on minuscule samples of the population and offers no basis for generalizations of any kind. People just like to bring it up because it comforts them to think their language is theirs, and theirs only. But it ain't. There's scores of linguistic chameleons out there. You can't spot them unless you see their passport.




Yeah, that i one of my "favorite legends" too. My wife was told this by a Danish language teacher once as wel - my wife learned Danish as her 4th (or something) foreign language in her late 20es. Actually she went as far as to claim it were impossible to learn a foreign language well, if you did not start at the age of 10-12 at the latest. A few minutes in the conversation the native Danish teacher proceeded to ask my wife (who was working as a secretary at the time) if she had had difficulties getting herself adjusted to the German keyboards (which differ from English/Danish ones).

Obviously she had not spotted my wife's accent - which brings me back to the argument: There will usually be some accent left, but not everybody can tell. 

However, I find it appalling when even language teachers suport such legends. They ought to go find another job.


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## _forumuser_

I think Macanuima had a very good point. Motivation is a big factor. Adults are generally satisfied with being as good as they need to be. Another important factor is the _level _at which the language is learned. Children's pronunciation improves faster or more significantly because they repeat a relatively limited number of words and phrases again and again. The vocabulary and syntax of an adult is expected to be much richer, so adult learners tend to put more effort into these areas, and less into polishing their pronunciation.


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## karuna

I didn't know that a native accent is considered so important in many countries. It is not the case in Latvia. Maybe the reason is that we have many native speakers whose pronunciation deviates from the standard in many ways. For example, some regional speakers can't pronounce palatalized _ķ, _others pronounce the soft _ŗ _which is no longer used in the standard dialect_, _pitch accents can also vary depending on the region and vowel length even differs for speakers of different generations. 

I also know many persons who have learned Latvian only as adults, yet they can speak Latvian with an undistinguishable standard accent, so the theory that you can never learn to sound and be accepted like a native after reaching adulthood is false. It is not easy and it requires many years of hard work but the phonetics are not the hardest part. The accent thing is overrated because even if you speak with a perfect accent but make grammatical mistakes or your vocabulary is very limited then it is much worse than non-native accent but otherwise excellent language.


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## brau

I believe, actually know, that you can speak a foreign language with a native accent even if you didn't learn that language as a child. I have a teacher from Leeds, England, who first came to Valencia, Spain, when he was 24. He is now 38, and can speak Spanish like a Valencian. If it wasn't for his physical appearance, I can't see how people would think he is a foreigner.  In all fairness, though, he is a linguist and studied Spanish (actually Spanish from the city of Valencia) at depth, focusing on colloquial usages and phonology. I swear I have been trying to catch anything that made him sound as a foreigner, for 3 years now, but I just can't, he speaks like a Spaniard. He's done it.  

In addition to that, he also speaks Valencian Catalan _almost _perfectly. He does sound strange when speaking Catalan though, even if his only "mistakes" are pronunciation mistakes. He tends to put too much stress on the features of Valencian Catalan pronunciation that he's realised differ from Spanish pronunciation (he spends too much time pronouncing the "l", for instance). He still speaks it extremely well though, and has a deeper knowledge of Catalan than the vast majority of Catalan speakers (same with Spanish).


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## Athaulf

viera2 said:


> I tend to agree with you. In France the Slavs are commonly considered to be particularly 'gifted' at learning languages. And I have come across a theory to corroborate this. Apparently the Slavic languages use many more phonemes (sounds) than English, French, etc., and so the learners possess a wider range of sounds to call upon when trying to imitate those of another language.



Actually, different Slavic languages have extremely different phonologies, and learning the pronunciation of another Slavic language can be a real nightmare despite the otherwise great similarities between them. For example, Russian has as much as 14 or 15 consonants that are nonexistent in Croatian, and it's extremely hard for a Croatian speaker to learn to recognize and pronounce those properly. 

When it comes to English and French, I don't think that your theory holds water for all, or even most Slavic languages. Both English and French have such different phonologies from Croatian that they sounded to me as undecipherable noise upon first hearing, even when spoken slowly and clearly (French largely still does, since I've never learned it). In contrast, for example, even before I could speak any Spanish, I heard it as consisting of clear words that I could repeat mostly accurately, even if not knowing what they meant (almost all Spanish sounds exist in Croatian too, though the reverse is not the case). 

Frankly, I'd say that Slavs might appear to be gifted learners of  Western European languages because they are usually learning them out of greater necessity than some other peoples, and obviously have a certain head start over learners from non-European cultures.


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## Sepia

I am not surprised that the slavs are considered very gifted in learning languages - coming from a language that basically have similar components as romance and germanic languagees, but a grammar that is much more complicated than even High German is, they have an advantage - at least if they really master their native language.


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## karuna

Athaulf said:


> Frankly, I'd say that Slavs might appear to be gifted learners of  Western European languages because they are usually learning them out of greater necessity than some other peoples, and obviously have a certain head start over learners from non-European cultures.



Agreed. Otherwise why there are still so many Russian speaking people in Latvia or Estonia who are unable to learn even the basic level of official languages in 20+ years? It all depends on the perceived need and self-motivation. The pronunciation can be easier if your native language has similar sounds but it is a small handicap. I think that all humans have approximately the same capacity for learning other languages and the rest depends on environment.


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## wildan1

_forumuser_ said:


> That is exactly the point. We base our theories on our limited experience of the world. You've never met an adult learner with a perfect accent. I, and apparently many other users on this thread, have. No research will convince me that something I've seen happening with my own eyes is impossible.


 
Your comment reflects your own observation...which probably is accurate for your own limited experience--which is atypical.

There is considerable research on L2 acquisition that demonstrates the diminishing performance after puberty. Not impossible, but with very diminished frequency. 

Your observation was in the small end of the tail that is always out there. Most L2 learners just don't have the same kind of cognitive learning capacity after puberty. It's biological.


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## _forumuser_

wildan1 said:


> Your comment reflects your own observation...which probably is accurate for your own limited experience--which is atypical.
> 
> There is considerable research on L2 acquisition that demonstrates the diminishing performance after puberty. Not impossible, but with very diminished frequency.
> 
> Your observation was in the small end of the tail that is always out there. Most L2 learners just don't have the same kind of cognitive learning capacity after puberty. It's biological.



Before we start talking about what is and isn't biologically or cognitively possible, which is, at present, very hard to establish with any certainty, we must consider the very different learning situations in which children and adults learn a language. The number of adult learners with perfect accents, no matter how small you believe that number to be, shows that biology has very little to do with it. I am rather inclined to believe that under equal conditions (same opportunities, same learning tools, same time availability, same motivations, same lack of distracting factors) a young adult would perform just as well if not better than a child, as it is case in most other areas.


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## wildan1

_forumuser_ said:


> Before we start talking about what is and isn't biologically or cognitively possible, which is, at present, very hard to establish with any certainty, we must consider the very different learning situations in which children and adults learn a language. The number of adult learners with perfect accents, no matter how small you believe that number to be, shows that biology has very little to do with it. I am rather inclined to believe that under equal conditions (same opportunities, same learning tools, same time availability, same motivations, same lack of distracting factors) a young adult would perform just as well if not better than a child, as it is case in most other areas.


 
Biology doesn't prevent anyone from this kind of performance, just like it doesn't prevent many children from learning to play the piano. But biology (and environment, exposure and practice) reduce those numbers of expert performers as adults to a tiny fraction. Not unlike L2 learners and their performance. That's what the research and data show. 

The rest is just conjecture on your part. To have such an opinion (or hypothesis) taken seriously, you would have to demonstrate that it were the case in a minimum of 95% of a sample of possible subjects--in a cross-section sample. Otherwise any professional would take such a hypothesis with a grain of salt.


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## Sepia

And to the argument from Forumuser: "... never met a foreign learner with a perfect accent ..."

How can you tell? Not everybody would tell you where he is from - and even so, not everybody tells the truth and the whole truth. (Not that I think that a lot of people are liars, but we are not always obliged to give full and truthful information, and it is not always relevant to do so either.)


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## jonquiliser

Sepia, I suspect _forumuser_ agrees with you - in the next phrase he says "I, and apparently many other users on this thread, have." 

And I'm inclined to agree; it's easier to note the people with marked accents, simply. Those who don't have a 'foreign' accent simple go unnoticed in some cases.


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## Spectre scolaire

forumuser said:
			
		

> Before we start talking about what is and isn't biologically or cognitively possible, which is, at present, very hard to establish with any certainty, we must consider the very different learning situations in which children and adults learn a language. The number of adult learners with perfect accents, no matter how small you believe that number to be, shows that biology has very little to do with it. I am rather inclined to believe that under equal conditions (same opportunities, same learning tools, same time availability, same motivations, same lack of distracting factors) a young adult would perform just as well if not better than a child, as it is [the] case in most other areas.


 Indeed, in most other fields – only not in language learning...

I never came across an Italian speaking perfect French, nor a Frenchman speaking perfect Italian – both having learned the foreign language as an adult.*) But I know several persons whose French _and_ Italian are impeccable, invariably in cases where people were exposed to both languages from childhood (or are actually still children) – either from parents or from school (_in casu_ French school).

Interesting thread – I have to read through it systematically... 

*) How do I know? The answer is long experience, the elaboration of critical phonetic parameters for different languages spoken by non-natives, and subtle ways of asking in order to confirm “suspicion”. 
 ​


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## Encolpius

Whodunit said:


> A friend of mine and I have had a little discussion about an foreigner's accuracy of a language he wants to speak fluently and most naturally. She insisted upon her opinion that you will never speak like a real native English speaker if you're Spanish or German or the like. I corrected her and insisted that if you really make efforts and occupy with the language and its dialects you will sound like a native someday...



What does *native *mean? It means you are born a native, right? 
What you want to know is whether someone can speak as good as become a newscaster or talk show host at a national channel. I think it is possible. I saw a talk-show host on the Hungarian TV, who comes from India and he has no accent and speaks fluent and correct Hungarian. But I think he is not a native because I speak 2 Hungarian languages, the first one is what my mother talked to me when I was in her womb and the second one what I learnt at school. I hope you know what I mean. The question is, face it, is there really anybody who is born to speak the Queens English?? I think most natives really do speak a dialect and the standard language.
I remember what Dr. 'Iggins or who says in a film: he must be a foreigner because his English is too perfect.
Actually My Fair Lady is about that problem.


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## orlando09

Your comment would be true of many Italians, for example, but not really of English people. There are few people who speak such a regional version of English to be considered "dialect" speakers these days, though there are many people who speak with a regional "accent" and some of them may use some regional words, especially in casual speech. In cases where someone' s speech is strongly regional they might, depending on how educated they are, be aware of the usefulness of choosing more standard vocabulary in certain situations, but that's not so different from the way we all modify language choices according to the suitable register. I'm not aware that British people actually alter their accents much as such though, though I suppose there are some people who do have a tendency to try to sound a little bit more " Queen's English" if they want to impress. As for whether anyone is " born"  speaking in a " received pronunciation" (that is "Queen's English") way,  yes, lots of them, it just depends on how your parents speak or how people speak at your school. Most people attending private schools, for example, don't speak with a regional accent, also an RP accent is more or less standard in the Home Counties, for example. However today's version of RP is usually less exaggeratedly "posh"  than the version you heard in the past. I did once know a French teacher of English whose manner of speaking seemed to be modeled on the tones of BBC announcers in the 1950s, and who actually sounded a bit too stilted to sound like the usual contemporary native (as in your "too perfect" example).


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## Encolpius

orlando09 said:


> Your comment would be true of many Italians, for example, but *not really of English people*....



Are you serious?


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## orlando09

Yes, I think very few English people speak a very broad dialect in certain circumstances and "the Queen's English"("RP") on other occasions. Maybe though, some people with broad accents try to speak in a slightly more RP way with foreigners, if they think it will help them to understand? On the whole though I would have thought considerate people in these circumstances mainly just speak a bit more slowly and enunciate more.


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## Encolpius

I did not mean broad dialect, just a languages you were born with, I really doubt, and met some native English persons (the truth is, no earls, no princes, no lords) that *most *natives speak a language you hear on BBC.


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## orlando09

What you "hear on the BBC" is nothing like it was a few decades ago, you hear a mild version of RP as well as some fairly mild versions of regional accents. Most people I know in the UK sound more or less like people you would hear on the BBC (and I don't know any lords etc either)


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## Encolpius

orlando09 said:


> What you "hear on the BBC" is nothing like it was a few decades ago, you hear a mild version of RP as well as some fairly mild versions of regional accents. Most people I know in the UK sound more or less like people you would hear on the BBC (and I don't know any lords etc either)



Orlando, you don't need to answer this question, but are your parents and grandparents native English speakers?


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## orlando09

Yes they are. From North Yorkshire


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## Encolpius

orlando09 said:


> Yes they are. From North Yorkshire



Thank you. Now let's wait what others think about that problem.


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## The Machine of Zhu

orlando09 said:


> What you "hear on the BBC" is nothing like it was a few decades ago, you hear a mild version of RP as well as some fairly mild versions of regional accents. Most people I know in the UK sound more or less like people you would hear on the BBC (and I don't know any lords etc either)



Well, all I can say is that I know a lot of Londoners and they all speak with a thick accent. They are all, with no exception, second or third generation immigrants, though. Perhaps that's a factor, perhaps they have a sociolect? 

I also know a Welsh guy and his accent is even heavier. I love it and I've been trying to mimic it, though I've been advised against it 

I also know a girl from North East England and, although she doesn't speak RP, her accent isn't marked. 

I've been mistaken for a native speaker of English (American, and also to a lesser extent British English), but I've never been mistaken for a local. When I lived in the States, locals usually heard I wasn't from their neck of the woods, but they didn't notice that I was a foreigner.


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## Sepia

brau said:


> I believe, actually know, that you can speak a foreign language with a native accent even if you didn't learn that language as a child. I have a teacher from Leeds, England, who first came to Valencia, Spain, when he was 24. He is now 38, and can speak Spanish like a Valencian. If it wasn't for his physical appearance, I can't see how people would think he is a foreigner. In all fairness, though, he is a linguist and studied Spanish (actually Spanish from the city of Valencia) at depth, focusing on colloquial usages and phonology. I swear I have been trying to catch anything that made him sound as a foreigner, for 3 years now, but I just can't, he speaks like a Spaniard. He's done it.
> 
> In addition to that, he also speaks Valencian Catalan _almost _perfectly. He does sound strange when speaking Catalan though, even if his only "mistakes" are pronunciation mistakes. He tends to put too much stress on the features of Valencian Catalan pronunciation that he's realised differ from Spanish pronunciation (he spends too much time pronouncing the "l", for instance). He still speaks it extremely well though, and has a deeper knowledge of Catalan than the vast majority of Catalan speakers (same with Spanish).


 

What about people from Castellano speaking families (both parents) who have learned to speak Catalan - can you normally spot them by their accents?


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## Rintoul

Sepia said:


> What about people from Castellano speaking families (both parents) who have learned to speak Catalan - can you normally spot them by their accents?


 
This varies from case to case based on the overall exposure of these people to Catalan. If your environment -neighbours, work colleagues, friends- are predominantly Spanish speakers, then chances are this will reflect in your Catalan pronunciation, grammar and vocabulary, giving you away in this respect. 

As an opposite example take my father. His parents, uncles, etc. came from Andalusia and as far as I know they never spoke more than a word or two of Catalan. He, however, speaks Catalan without any kind of accent, and while his Spanish is perfectly fluent, it is however clearly influenced by Catalan pronunciation and idioms. I guess his childhood neighbours and mates during his limited school years must have basically been native Catalan speakers.


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## Jacobtm

The line is fine, but it's drawn somewhere in childhood. Someone who immigrates here at age 4 can certainly be accepted as a native, but someone who immigrates in their teen years may be too late.

Lots of people, especially if they're drunk and being honest, can be VERY disturbed by non-natives trying to speak their language, they feel threatened, as if you're invading their personal realm. 

I was trying to convince a Mexican girl she could say "stop" instead of "estop", when she dared me to say "correr" like a Mexican. I couldn't satisfy her, it sounded forced to her. Of course my Spanish is forced, the only reason I know Spanish is that I forced myself to learn it. But to both of us, as we were drinking red wine and enjoying each others company, the accent of the other was somehow unacceptable.


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## jonquiliser

Encolpius said:


> What does *native *mean? It means you are born a native, right?
> 
> The question is, face it, is there really anybody who is born to speak  the Queens English?? I think most natives really do speak a dialect and  the standard language.



My parents come from different regions of Finland; my mother grew up in two different ones and moved to my father's home village when they got together - she has spent a good deal of her adult life there. So my mother has no specific dialect she speaks; my father, out of principle (don't ask me why, although social stigma is possibly one reason) decided not to speak his home dialect. His speech is a mixture of standardised language and regional features (as is the case of many, many people). So I grew up speaking something rather standardised. I have only one native language. No dialect to switch to (with the exception of a few words here and there).

But I do take your point about nativeness: it is not a question of skills (if you can acquire one, you can acquire several languages, I believe many people who live abroad and learn a language inevitably do this: they learn how the language is spoken in the region where they live, _and_ the standard language) but of your relation to a language. It is not necessarily the pronounciation/intonation, or general vocabulary and syntax, that are the most relevant, but what that language is to you. Tiny little things like lullabies, for example, or archaic language, or jokes that were popular back in your childhood. Language is so much more than syntax and a large vocabulary. (This is not to say that bilinguals who grew up with one of the languages being stronger, or in an area where only their parent/s would speak one of those languages, are not "really bilingual" - I think it's more of a personal question, not a sociological or empirical one).


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## Encolpius

jonquiliser said:


> ...It is not necessarily the pronounciation/intonation, or general vocabulary and syntax, that are the most relevant, but what that language is to you. Tiny little things like lullabies, for example, or archaic language, or jokes that were popular back in your childhood. Language is so much more than syntax and a large vocabulary. (This is not to say that bilinguals who grew up with one of the languages being stronger, or in an area where only their parent/s would speak one of those languages, are not "really bilingual" - I think it's more of a personal question, not a sociological or empirical one).



I am really happy there is someone here who has understood what I really meant.  And now it has occurred to me how my mother used to wake me up in the morning when I was a little child, although she was not German, used: Afstehn what as a child I haven't understood until I started studying German.


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## slowik

I had a classmate in high school who came to Poland from a remote part of the world when he was 6 (I think). It never occured to me he is not a native speaker of Polish until he asked me a question about the Polish language that only a non-native speaker could ask. And you know what happened? Nothing. I still considered him a native speaker of Polish and didn't think about it at all. 
So you definitely can be treated the same as native speakers. 
And I think phonetics are overvalued: I think (though I might be wrong) that native speakers are not that picky to notice slight differences in pronunciation. I think it's a lot more important to speak a language in a natural way but given the perfect grammar first. There are mistakes that native speakers just don't make.
Not to mention cultural differences which are an entirely different thing so I won't go into that here.


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## SDLX Master

Of course it is possible, and I am living proof of it. I was born Peruvian, thus, exposed to Spanish on a 24.7 basis, I started learning English in kindergarten and by the time I finished high school I was speaking perfect Brit English (which included singing "God Save the Queen" once a year), but once I was out of school and due to the nature of my job at the time, I was surrounded by many US citizens and before I realized it, my Brit intonation was gone, I clicked to American English, came to love it, and in no time I was already using it fluently, to the point of getting people asking me where in the US I was born. LOL About then, I traveled to the US for a while on vacation and loved it. I did not want to come back, but I had to, and I have been wanting to go back there and stay for good ever since.
Anyway, the thing is, you have to be a "natural" to instantly click to a foreign language and pass for a native.


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## effeundici

I think you can be accepted (or confused) like a native only if you move to a language which comes from the same root (f.i. Spanish-Italian or English-Dutch).

Because of the sounds, I think. In Italy we will NEVER be able to perfectly utter all those strange (for us) sounds which can be found in English.

Sometimes I happen to hear Spanish television. Maybe I don't understand the words but i can easily write down what the are saying. On the contrary when I hear English people speaking quickly sometimes I don't have the faintest idea of which sounds the are pronouncing.


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## DernierVirage

effeundici said:


> I think you can be accepted (or confused) like a native only if you move to a language which comes from the same root (f.i. Spanish-Italian or English-Dutch).
> ....


 
The best English I have ever heard from a non-native speaker was by a friend and former colleague from China (Jiangsu province). His grammar, vocabulary and pronunciation were native speaker level - if you heard him speaking on the telephone you would automatically have assumed that he was British born and bred, since he also had a very "neutral" British accent.

What is amazing is that when I met him first, he already had attained this level but had never been outside China (he came from a very small village and a very modest background), and had learnt English at a remote school, backed up with a lot of self study.....Incredible.


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## Tjahzi

As a speaker of Swedish, I can tell that it's very unusual for people with Swedish as a second language to completly get rid of their accent. I believe this is mainly due to the fact that Swedish has some unusual phonological traits. Mainly, the 17 vowel phonems, all of different quality, that also vary in length (long/short) and rounding (unrounded/round/"extra rounded"). In addition, the characteristic stress pattern and pitch accent is very hard to acquire as a non-native (the latter even being hard to distinguish). That said, you occasionally come accress people who speak very well, but in terms of perfection, I'd say they are extreamly rare.

All that said, I think there is a differnce between language and language here. Some languages are easier that others to achieve native-like pronounciation in (such as English?), some harder (such as Swedish?).


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## jonquiliser

Encolpius said:


> I am really happy there is someone here who has understood what I really meant.  And now it has occurred to me how my mother used to wake me up in the morning when I was a little child, although she was not German, used: Afstehn what as a child I haven't understood until I started studying German.





Maybe it could be added that this goes many ways - sometimes talking about something is *more* difficult in one's mother tongue because of certain associations the terms bring about ("cultural prejudice" or in consequence of one's particular upbringing, say). Another language may mean different ways of thinking and in the best of cases it can be liberating. Though there's no necessity in any of this, of course.




Tjahzi said:


> As a speaker of Swedish, I can tell that it's very  unusual for people with Swedish as a second language to completly get  rid of their accent. I believe this is mainly due to the fact that  Swedish has some unusual phonological traits.  ... you occasionally come accress people who speak very well, but in terms  of perfection, I'd say they are extreamly rare.
> 
> All that said, I think there is a differnce between language and  language here. Some languages are easier that others to achieve  native-like pronounciation in (such as English?), some harder (such as  Swedish?).



English never appeared to me that easy in phonology. Due to the immense exposure to English, many non-natives have good accents, granted. But frequently you can still notice bits and pieces of the speakers language background - not least because most people are exposed to completely different variants of English that they don't necessarily even distinguish. (This is of course not negative.)

In the case of Swedish, it is true that few people entirely 'lose' their native language accent, but then, that is probably true of almost any and all languages. Even closely related ones. 

(As a general remark on this thread But at the end of the day, we don't always speak with each other in order to 'trick' people (or convince them) that we're from some particular region, now do we? 

Though I agree sometimes it's nice when people "take you for a native" - and not only because of the ego boost . It's nice not always being perceived as an 'outsider' (though sometimes it's rather the reverse; being singled out as the outsider can get tiresome at times). But then again, that is not only down to language in the terms of 'our language your language", it's maybe more about what kind of relations we have: I'm just as much a part of my group of friends no matter what accents they/we/I have or don't have. The question of "being" native or not native is only relevant in some circumstances.


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## Pedro y La Torre

Foreigners managing to pick up an Irish accent is not that rare in my experience, funnily enough. Two of my university professors (French native speakers) managed to develop a near native Dublin accent, so much so that if it wasn't for their names, I would have thought them Irish. 

I also know number of Poles (our largest immigrant group) who, although having come to Ireland in their late teens/early 20s, have managed to develop a near flawless Irish accent - only the smallest pronunciation errors give them away.


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