# EN: be gone / have gone



## carolineR

I have a problem with gone as a past participle and gone as an adjective :
Of course I understand "he's gone" can mean he has gone/ he is gone and that the two sentences are not synonymous. The first one, if I am not mistaken, meaning "il est parti", the second one "il a disparu/ il est mort."
My problem is with the lyrics :
"Where have all the flowers gone ? "
I would personnally have written "Where are all the flowers gone ?" 
I would be most grateful if anyone out there could try to explain the difference and propose examples ?

*Moderator note:* Multiple threads merged to create this one.


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## Smac

I agree with your interpretation of "he has gone" and "he is gone". However, the second is much less less usual and is rarely seen except in poetic, dramatic or deliberately archaic sentences. 
Yes, you could use the second construction in the song, and the effect would be to make it seem more literary and less simple, whereas it was intended to resemble a traditional folk song.


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## petereid

"Where are all the flowers gone ?" 

We would say "Where have all the flowers gone?"  just like the song.

You asked for some examples:
He has gone shopping
They have gone to the match
We have gone to town, we'll be back later.


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## harneyp2

The difference here is pretty subtle and perhaps difficult to explain. I'll try.

"The flowers are gone." (Present Tense - they are not here at this moment in time)
"Are all the flowers gone?" (A question relating to the present - Present Tense)
"Where have all the flowers gone?" (A question relating to the past - Past Tense - the flowers are not here now so they must have been taken in the past)
"The flowers have gone (went) to the compost heap" (Past Tense - couldn't think of a good flower related sentence. Where would they go?)

Edit: I agree that "Where are all the flowers gone ?" is incorrect. Just trying to clarify why.


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## NYCPrincesse

"Where are all the flowers gone."  I don't know about British English but I'm pretty sure that this is not correct in American English.  
We would say, "Where are all the flowers", "Where did all the flowers go" or, as in the song, "Where have all the flowers gone".
Similarly, we would not say, "Where is she gone", rather "Where did she go"
or "Where has she gone."
I hope that helps.


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## Pinkbeads

I would agree with you NYCPrincesse, and I am a British English speaker!


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## french4beth

Good question, caroline!

Also - in addition to the above - if we say 'where have all the flowers gone' it sounds as though they got up and walked out!  I'd prefer "What [has] happened to the flowers" or "Where are the flowers".


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## Smac

As poetry, it doesn't scan very well ...


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## carolineR

petereid said:
			
		

> You asked for some examples:
> He has gone shopping
> They have gone to the match
> We have gone to town, we'll be back later.


Thank you for these examples, but they're all good old present perfects ; that's not exactly what I was looking for : I would be interested in examples where I could compare the use of " gone" = adjective
and "gone" = part of the present perfect tense

e.g.
he 's far gone = il est au plus bas
all her enthusiasm was gone  = it had evaporated
... ore Gone with the wind where I believe gone is an adjective
In French, the meaning of "gone" (adjective) is closer to "envolé" than to "parti".


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## Overton

carolineR said:
			
		

> ... ore Gone with the wind where I believe gone is an adjective
> In French, the meaning of "gone" (adjective) is closer to "envolé" than to "parti".


 
Isn't that a past participle? when a past participle is used as an adjective, is it considered as an adjective or a past participle?


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## petereid

sorry I'm a bit late
J'organise des randonnees pour mes collegues dont quelques etrangers. Ici en Angleterre la ponctualite est presqye une religion.
Au bout du bulletin j'ecris;-
We meet at 09.45 we leave at 10.00.    Don't arrive late, we'll be gone.
There is also what I believe is an imperative construction. "Be gone with you!"
I hope it helps


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## carolineR

It does, it does, thank you... Thank you to Smac, and to the others, too.
But if more foreros had some time to devote to my dilemma, I would indeed appreciate some more contributions...
And do you really all agree - except Smac, apparently - that "where are all the flowers gone ?" sound weird ???


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## pieanne

Where have all the flowers gone?
Point is, they are no longer here, they are somewhere else. It's kind of active.

Where are all the flowers gone? It's passive, and it's not OK with "where". They are gone, they don't exist anymore, so you can't ask "Where do they don't exist anymore?"

See what I mean?


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## NYCPrincesse

It's not that it sounds weird, Caroline, it just sounds poetic.


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## carolineR

Then you would accept it ? Or wouldn't you ?
I understant nobody would accept where is my wallet gone...
But would you accept : where is my sweet love gone ?


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## NYCPrincesse

No, no. Not "Where *is *my wallet gone," but rather "Where *has *my wallet gone."

The "*is*" is the problem, not the "gone"


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## pieanne

Where have all my college friends gone? = Where are they now?

Same with the flowers: they are elsewhere, they have not died.


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## Aupick

Having thought about this all day, here are my conclusions.

The verb *go* describes the movement of the subject. There's a starting point and a destination, although the destination is usually more important.

When *gone* is used as an adjective, it focuses on the starting point, not the destination. It describes the relationship between the subject and the place where the subject was, but not on the subject itself. *Gone* as an adjective is equivalent to 'absent', 'not here'. It doesn't indicate anything about the destination of what's missing, or the journey, which is why 'Where are all the flowers gone?' sounds strange: it couples 'where' (a destination question) with 'gone' (whose scope is limited to 'here').

Notice that all of peterid's questions focus on destination;
- He has gone shopping
- They have gone to the match
- We have gone to town, we'll be back later.
And you can add:
- Where have they gone? (= what's their _destination_)

Examples where gone is an adjective are different:
- How long has he been gone (= how long has he been away from _here_)
- How long will he be gone (= when will he be back _here_)
- The biscuits are all gone (= there are no biscuits left)


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## Smac

pieanne said:
			
		

> Where are all the flowers gone? It's passive, and it's not OK with "where". They are gone, they don't exist anymore, so you can't ask "Where do they don't exist anymore?"


I agree that it is not the expression that would be used informally today but you can certainly see it in archaic or poetic contexts. See:
[…]
http://rtnl.org.uk/now_and_then/html/74.html


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## carolineR

Thank you everybody for having put your shoulder to the wheel with such enthusiasm.  I am delighted my question innocently started such brainstorming  !
A special thank's to Aupick for "having thought about this all day" and his very clear explanation, and to Smac for his research and poetic references.


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## donques

I don't accept that "gone" is ever an adjective, certainly not in the way Aupick has cited.

The confusion concerning "where have/are the flowers gone dates back to Old English and the development of a situated past tense.

The  dual use of "to have" and "to be" as auxiliaries in both Germanic and Romance languages is a continuation of  the late Latin use of participles, sometimes expressed with the verb "habere", sometimes with the dative used with the verb "esse" in order to situate a past event.

There are I suggest two large problems with the verb "to go"
The etymological roots of the preterite and the participle are separate from the infinitive; the shortened form, of the third personal singular verbal phrase can imply both auxiliaries.

Above all this though; if people wish use either auxiliary, knock yourself out. If it makes sense to me semantically, I'll always give it a listen to.


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## momto7

I'd like to try my hand at a simple answer.

have gone = past participle of "go" - it's an action 

is gone = state or condition - something is no longer there, so we say it is gone

So:

The flowers have gone.  (They left!  bye bye!)

but:

The flowers are gone.  (They are no longer here.  Where the heck are they??)

That's my try.

Mollie


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## Oddmania

Bonjour, 

 J'aimerais avoir votre avis sur une question qui peut sembler un peu bête et basique. Faut-il employer l'auxiliaire _Be_, ou bien l'auxiliaire _Have_ avec le verbe _To go_ ?

Je pencherais plus pour _Be_ (_When I'm gone, those days are gone,..._) mais j'ai déjà vu des phrase avec _Have._

Notamment la forme _I should have gone..._ signifiant _J'aurais dû faire_...

Cette forme étant formé de l'auxiliaire _Should_ (bien qu'on pourrait aussi former des phrases avec _Must, Would, May, Might, Could_,...) + _Present Perfect_, je m'interroge.

Merci d'avance


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## trench feature

To me, in examples such as when I'm gone and those days are gone, the word gone seems more like an adjective that means "no longer here".  An other example might be "Is John still here"?  "No, he's gone".  

I would use the auxiliary "have" with the verb "to go", as in _I have gone there several times_.

I think your other examples involve modal verbs in the past, must have, should have, would have + past participle, not must, should... + present perfect.  Otherwise,     I would have to say "He must *has* gone" if I were using must + present perfect  but the correct form is  "He must have gone"

I hope this explanation helps and that I have understood your questions correctly.


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## Maître Capello

Il ne faut pas confondre l'*auxiliaire des temps composés* _have_ (p.ex.: _They have gone to the movies_) avec l'*auxiliaire d'état* _be_ (p.ex.: _They are gone_).


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## Oddmania

Oh, yeah, thanks, I got it  I didn't know this difference.

So, I guess _Be gone_ will be used in short sentences, just like _He is gone_, or _I'm gone_ (often nothing after it). 

 _" How_ " is he ? He is gone.


_Have gone_ will be used in longer sentences, like _I have gone to the cinema to see a movie_. 

 What has he done ? Where has he gone ? He has gone to the cinema.

Thanks again.


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## Thomas1

He's gone to the cinema is just fine as well. The 's replaces both is (expressing the state) and has (expressing the result). The interpretation of it depends on context.



Maître Capello said:


> Il ne faut pas confondre l'*auxiliaire des temps composés* _have_ (p.ex.: _They have gone to the movies_) avec l'*auxiliaire d'état* _be_ (p.ex.: _They are gone_).



Le be est aussi l'auxiliare dans les temps composés, non ? On ne l'utilise cependant pas aussi souvent comme en français on utilise être. 
Ce sont  des nuance qui sont différentes pour chaque auxiliare.


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## Maître Capello

Thomas1 said:


> Le be est aussi l'auxiliare dans les temps composés, non ?


Cite-m'en un exemple alors !  On ne l'utilise que pour le passif, mais comme _to go_ est intransitif…


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## Thomas1

Le voilà : The Lord is come. 

 Je me rends compte que c'est plutôt sur un niveau théorique que sur un pratique, parce qu'en anglais courant, bien que l'emploi de _be _comme l'auxiliare des certains verbes intransitifs soit possible, il est presque inexistant.


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## Maître Capello

Thomas1 said:


> Le voilà : The Lord is come.


Ah ! forcément ! Si tu te mets à parler de la grammaire de l'époque des dinosaures…


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## Thomas Tompion

trench feature said:


> To me, in examples such as when I'm gone and those days are gone, the word gone seems more like an adjective that means "no longer here". An other example might be "Is John still here"? "No, he's gone".


Hi Trenchfeature,

In your second case I think _he's gone_ is more likely to be short for _he has gone_, than for _he is gone_.


Maître Capello said:


> Ah ! forcément ! Si tu te mets à parler de la grammaire de l'époque des dinosaures…


It's not as unusual as you seem to think, Maître. Here's an example from a little later than the age of the dinosaurs:

_I have to remind myself that some birds aren't meant to be caged. Their feathers are just too bright. And when they fly away, the part of you that knows it was a sin to lock them up does rejoice. Still, the place you live in is that much more drab and empty that they're gone. I guess I just miss my friend - _Morgan Freeman

I'd agree with the view that it's not out of the question to use _to be_ as the auxiliary with _to go_ and _to come_, but it is most often used when a more static adjectival quality is sought in the past participle, when you want to stress that the action is complete, rather than describe it as happening.  It's also rather formal and dramatic, but that's a tone some people wish to strike occasionally.


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## trench feature

Thomas Tompion said:


> Hi Trenchfeature,
> 
> In your second case I think _he's gone_ is more likely to be short for _he has gone_, than for _he is gone_.


Hi,

Maybe there is a BE/AE difference, but if someone asked me "Is John still here"? and I answered "He's gone", for me, that would be a contracted form of "he is gone" (he's not here anymore).  He has gone doesn't sound natural to me. I could say "he has been gone for a while", "he has gone to the market", (even that sounds a little odd) but I wouldn't say "he has gone" all by itself.


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## franc 91

The tense you are talking about is called the present perfect - usually something that has just happened recently. We don't know when exactly - that's not important.
(c'est un temps racroché au présent , dans un passé récent qui vient jusqu'au présent et qui peut continuer dans le future.) The train has just left. I have already been there. Have you finished yet? I have never been there.


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