# ш-щ



## gentilhom

I don't hear any significant difference btw ш and щ, except that sometimes щ is more insistent. My manual says that щ is pronounced shtsh. But I don't hear it. 

Do I need to wash my ears more frequently ?


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## willem81

I would compare the Ш- sound with the French sound in 'charmant'.
Whereas Щ resembles more the English sound in 'shield', 'shop', etc.


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## gentilhom

I don't get it. To me, these two are pretty much the same.


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## willem81

I see. Perhaps for a Westerner they must indeed sound the same. The difference is in the mechanics of the pronunciation.
It's like the difference between the Norwegian (and also Swedish) sounds _ and [y], which might seem very slight for a foreigner, but it still exists._


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## gentilhom

Oh, but I do know the difference you are talking about, I have studied both Swedish and Norwegian. I wonder whether Chinese sh 什么 说 啥 is like щ.


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## willem81

Good. So, I would say that when pronouncing Щ the lips must be stretched aside like when pronouncing the Norwegian _, but to pronounce Ш the lips' position is more as if you pronounced the Norwegian [y]._


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## rusita preciosa

Hi getilhom,

Did you have a chance to check the forum? Please review these threads:

ш/щ/ж
щ pronunciation
Щ pronunciation


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## Maroseika

gentilhom said:


> I don't get it. To me, these two are pretty much the same.


First of all, ш is a hard consonant, while щ is soft consonant. So, for example, phonetically ши is [шы], but щи is [щи].
Besides, it is one of only two long Russian consonants (this is its length, which may seem to you "more insistent"). Щ is sometimes interpreted as long soft ш. 
So, since щ is palatalized, it is produced farther from teeth, than ш.
In fact ш and щ are very different: шик, щит.



> My manual says that щ is pronounced shtsh


This may be either strong simplification or refer to the Petersburg pronunciation сч instead of щ.


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## gentilhom

Maroseika said:


> First of all, ш is a hard consonant, while щ is soft consonant. So, for example, phonetically ши is [шы], but щи is [щи].
> Besides, it is one of only two long Russian consonants (this is its length, which may seem to you "more insistent"). Щ is sometimes interpreted as long soft ш.
> So, since щ is palatalized, it is produced farther from teeth, than ш.
> In fact ш and щ are very different: шик, щит.
> 
> 
> This may be either strong simplification or refer to the Petersburg pronunciation сч instead of щ.



Palatalized means the tongue is rolled back in the middle of the mouth ?


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## gentilhom

willem81 said:


> Good. So, I would say that when pronouncing Щ the lips must be stretched aside like when pronouncing the Norwegian _, but to pronounce Ш the lips' position is more as if you pronounced the Norwegian [y]._


_

Rounded lips for Ш ?_


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## gentilhom

rusita preciosa said:


> Hi getilhom,
> 
> Did you have a chance to check the forum? Please review these threads:
> 
> ш/щ/ж
> щ pronunciation
> Щ pronunciation



No threads


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## willem81

gentilhom said:


> Rounded lips for Ш ?



Yes, Ш can be pronounced with rounded lips, but Щ cannot.


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## Maroseika

gentilhom said:


> Palatalized means the tongue is rolled back in the middle of the mouth ?



Can't say about exact location of the tongue, but at least it is farther back for щ, than to ш. Actually I don't think you can correctly reproduce this sound merely mechanically, just putting tongue and all that staff in the right places. Better listen somewhere (at forvo, for example) correct pronunciation of the similar words with these sounds: шик - щит, шаг - счастье, шуба - щука, шок - счет, etc.



> No threads


Let me help you: 
Russian/Ukrainian: Pronunciation of Щ
Щ pronunciation.


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## viesis

gentilhom said:


> I wonder whether Chinese sh 什么 说 啥 is like щ.


As far as I know, Chinese "sh" is essentially the same as Russian "ш".
The difference between "ш" and "щ" is that the latter is palatalized.


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## Maroseika

willem81 said:


> Yes, Ш can be pronounced with rounded lips, but Щ cannot.



I'm afraid, the latter is not correct. I can easily pronounce both sounds with quite the same (rounded or any other) position of lips. No wonder - lips are not invlolved at all in producing these sounds.


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## gvozd

Ш: your tongue is pretty far from your front teeth.The stream of the air is pushed outside with some effort and you can clearly feel it with your front lower teeth. Pretty much the same as the English 'sh'.
Щ: your tongue is tense and is much closer to your front teeth, it almost touches them. The stream of the air punches at your lower teeth as well, but weaker, because your tense tongue is an obstacle for it. 

I would say, щ is 'sh' or ш with the stretched tense tongue hanging right between your upper and lower jaws. When you pronounce ш, the air is pushed outside freely. When you pronounce щ, you push the air out of your mouth a little harder because your tongue makes it more difficult.


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## Maroseika

I found detailed explanation for the tongue position when pronouncing sibilants.

In particlur, щ differs from ш by the position of the tongue, additionally raised in its middle part to the palate. This is what I unprecisely called "farther backward".


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## rusita preciosa

Try to say out loud *cha*t and *chien*. Note the difference of how "ch" sounds and how your tongue is positioned, then exaggerate the difference. That would be a good approximation of the difference between *ш *and *щ*.


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## Colora

Let's try a simple strategy for correct pronunciation "sh" "ш" and "sh-tch" "щ". 
The snakes and the winds make perfect sound "sh" "ш" which can continue until your lungs are completely empty. Shshsh шшшшшш. 
And, vice versa, the sound "sh-tch" "щ" is ALWAYS  staccato. You can make perfect "sh-tch" sound  by using "locomotive" technique. What noise do diesel locos  make when they  move really really slowly?  The sound is heavy labored like "sh-tch sh-tch sh-tch sh-tch".  Breathe out quickly and steadily. Push the air out of lungs as fast as you can.


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## learnerr

Maroseika said:


> This may be either strong simplification or refer to the Petersburg pronunciation сч instead of щ.


I am sorry to ask, but what do you mean?  I do not discern any [с] or [ч] in the word [щит], even I have always lived there in that city or in its surroundings... I admit it sounds "harder" in my area than the sample you've linked to, but it's three sounds exactly, not four.


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## willem81

Colora said:


> And, vice versa, the sound "sh-tch" "щ" is ALWAYS  staccato. You can make perfect "sh-tch" sound  by using "locomotive" technique. What noise do diesel locos  make when they  move really really slowly?  The sound is heavy labored like "sh-tch sh-tch sh-tch sh-tch".  Breathe out quickly and steadily. Push the air out of lungs as fast as you can.



As for the Ш sound, I have no disagreements with you. But the variant of pronouncing Щ you are trying to explain is not the standard Russian pronounciation. Perhaps it is the Belorussian way to pronounce Щ, because I heard president Lukashenko pronouncing it exactly in this manner that you have mentioned.)


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## Maroseika

learnerr said:


> I am sorry to ask, but what do you mean?  I do not discern any [с] or [ч] in the word [щит], even I have always lived there in that city or in its surroundings... I admit it sounds "harder" in my area than the sample you've linked to, but it's three sounds exactly, not four.



My bad, I really wrote сч! Of course I meant шч (more or less _shtsh_, as *gentilhom*'s manual suggested), not сч. 
Anyway this refers to the standard hardly possible to encounter in the region of Petersburg nowadays.


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## ahvalj

The so called "Petersburg shch" is another myth from the literature. Indeed, the Russian «щ» historically was used for the combination «шч». In the last centuries, however, it started to loose the «ч» element and to simplify into a long palatalized «шьшь» or long plain «шш». The first pronunciation is characteristic of the literary language, while «шш» («прышшык, блядишша») sounds extremely ethnographic. This shift from «шч» то «шьшь» had apparently occurred e. g. in Moscow to the middle ninetienth century, while in St. Petersburg — a few decades later. The problem is that the scientific literature documented this discrepancy between two variants during the short period it existed, and since then this observation got its own life, being copied from author to author for some 150 years now, regardless of the actual pronunciation. To conclude: I have never heard anybody in person to pronounce «щ» as «шч» — the only cases I can recall were ancient records of the Gypsy romances or southern singers (Лещенко, Утёсов), who were apparently influenced by the Ukrainian pronunciation.


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## gentilhom

I think that with your kind help I now know the difference. щ is indeed like chien.


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## ahvalj

gentilhom said:


> I think that with your kind help I now know the difference. щ is indeed like chien.


Only twice longer.


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## Maroseika

ahvalj said:


> The so called "Petersburg shch" is another myth from the literature.



Maybe you are just not old enough? Anyway I would not think about linguists so disparaging.


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## ahvalj

Maroseika said:


> Maybe you are just not old enough? Anyway I would not think about linguists so disparaging.


Well, I heard people born in the beginning of the twentieth century and I never heard this «шч» from them. As to the habits of the scientific community: try to find 19th century descriptions of the peculiarities of the speech in SPB — virtually all of these observations can be found in the later literature, even though they are not based on the speaking habits of any living person anymore. It is just the power of the written tradition — if an authority wrote so, and 1000 lemmings repeated, it looks much more substantiated that somebody's personal observations contradicitng this: "yes, I have not heard that, but there of course must be thousands of people speaking as the classical authors had noticed".


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## gentilhom

Suppose I pronounce щ like ш, will that lead to problems ?


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## willem81

You reminded me of some place in the Bible, gentilhom)
_Gilead then cut Ephraim off from the fords of the Jordan, and  whenever Ephraimite fugitives said, 'Let me cross,' the men of Gilead  would ask, 'Are you an Ephraimite?' If he said, 'No,' they then said,  'Very well, say "Shibboleth" (שבלת).' If anyone said, "Sibboleth"  (סבלת), because he could not pronounce it, then they would seize him and  kill him by the fords of the Jordan. Forty-two thousand Ephraimites  fell on this occasion.
_
_—Judges 12:5–6, NJB_​


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## gentilhom

Oh, I shall diligently pronounce the Russian language to avoid such a dismal fate.


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## Maroseika

gentilhom said:


> Suppose I pronounce щ like ш, will that lead to problems ?



No problem of understanding you, but you will sound as if you came from the Russian North. Pronunciation of шш or шч  instead of щ is peculiar to Ladoga-Tikhvin, Vologda and Arkhangelsk groups of the Northern Russian dialect.




ahvalj said:


> As to the habits of the scientific community: try  to find 19th century descriptions of the peculiarities of the speech in  SPB



As far as I know this Spb speech feature is from the nearby dialects like Vologda, like in "счастье" and "до крещенья" on 2.25 - 2.40.


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## ahvalj

Maroseika said:


> As far as I know this Spb speech feature is from the nearby dialects like Vologda, like in "счастье" and "до крещенья" on 2.25 - 2.40.


No, it is not. This is the original East Slavic pronunciation, preserved to date in Belorusian and Ukrainian (with hard шч). The common Russian shift шьчь>шьшь simply reached SPB somewhat later than M, that's all. In any case, I can hardly imagine any influence of the nearby dialects on the speech of the educated classes of the Empire, taking into consideration that originally the SPB speech was an offshot of the speech of M and inherited all its peculiarities as to the early 18th century.


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