# Linen cellar



## Bushwhacker

In a medieval castle, what's a linen cellar?

Maybe the room where to weave? donde tejer?

Thanks


----------



## Valeria Mesalina

No necesariamente. 

Los tapices, las alfombras, los estandartes, no cubrían permanentemente las paredes o los suelos de un castillo. Se colgaban cuando llegaba el señor o había una visita importante. Luego volvían a guardarse en el linen cellar.


----------



## spodulike

Bushwhacker said:


> In a medieval castle, what's a linen cellar?
> 
> Maybe the room where to weave? donde tejer?
> 
> Thanks


 
Valeria´s answer is a possibility. However in England nowadays we talk about a linen-cupboard. This where we store clean sheets, towels, blankets, tablecloths etc. These items are used every day not necessarily stored for a long time. http://www.shabbychicsigns.com/USERIMAGES/Linen-Cupboard(2).jpg

I guess that in a castle a cupboard wouldn´t be big enough. Maybe a whole cellar is required.


----------



## Bushwhacker

Valeria Mesalina said:


> No necesariamente.
> 
> Los tapices, las alfombras, los estandartes, no cubrían permanentemente las paredes o los suelos de un castillo. Se colgaban cuando llegaba el señor o había una visita importante. Luego volvían a guardarse en el linen cellar.




Gracias. ¡Vaya conundrum! no hay mayor indicación en el texto. Difícil saber a qué se refiere. Ahora bien, tratándose de un cellar, qué crees que puede ser más probable?

Gracias


----------



## Ishould haveknown

¿No sería simplemente en el cuarto de los tapices? o de las mantelerías...
Saludos


----------



## Bushwhacker

spodulike said:


> Valeria´s answer is a possibility. However in England nowadays we talk about a linen-cupboard. This where we store clean sheets, towels, blankets, tablecloths etc. These items are used every day not necessarily stored for a long time. http://www.shabbychicsigns.com/USERIMAGES/Linen-Cupboard(2).jpg
> 
> I guess that in a castle a cupboard wouldn´t be big enough. Maybe a whole cellar is required.



You mean a whole cellar to store sheets, towels, and all that sort of drapery or to store tapestry and all this kind of medieval stuff?


----------



## Valeria Mesalina

Toallas no.... no las había en un castillo medieval . Sí mantas, pero lo más probable es que éstas se guardasen en arcones en las habitaciones, los que tenían habitaciones.
Pero básicamente se guardaba allí la tapicería (en un sentido amplio) a la que se daba poco uso.

Podía haber manteles para banquetes de lujo (normalmente se comía sobre la mesa desnuda), también uniformes para los pajes o colgaduras para el dosel.


----------



## spodulike

Valeria Mesalina said:


> *Toallas no.... no las había en un castillo medieval* . Sí mantas, pero lo más probable es que éstas se guardasen en arcones en las habitaciones, los que tenían habitaciones.


 
No? How did they dry themselves? With straw?


----------



## Valeria Mesalina

spodulike said:


> No? How did they dry themselves? With straw?



Linen cloths. Those who washed themselves, who were not many.


----------



## spodulike

Bushwhacker said:


> You mean a whole cellar to store sheets, towels, and all that sort of drapery or to store tapestry and all this kind of medieval stuff?


 
Well, in those days there would be servants who would wash the bedclothes, then dry them outside. After drying they would have to store the clothes somewhere before distributing them to the various cupboards throughout the castle.

Anyway that´s my theory, but I am not an expert on mediaeval castles!


----------



## Södertjej

Coincido con Valeria. En un castillo se podían guardar sábanas o mantas en arcones, de hecho en muchos museos se ven los arcones con compartimentos para la ropa que formaban parte del ajuar de las novias. Pero tapices, reposteros, estandartes, todo eso necesitaba un lugar de almacenaje amplio, ya que no se pueden doblar y tiene sentido que fuera una estancia.


----------



## spodulike

Valeria Mesalina said:


> Linen cloths. Those who washed themselves, who were not many.


 
Well, I still have a get-out 

A fifteenth century Italian miniature depicts a woman weaving at a sixshaft counterbalance loom, just right for weaving “Perugia *towels*” and similar ... http://www.cs.arizona.edu/patterns/weaving/webdocs/mnm_mt30.pdf​ 
admittedly these are serving towels but I didn´t specify what kind of towel did I? ​


----------



## Södertjej

spodulike said:


> Well, I still have a get-out


You forgot they probably used to stand in front of their soapstone fireplaces to get dry too.


----------



## Valeria Mesalina

spodulike said:


> Well, in those days there would be servants who would wash the bedclothes, then dry them outside. After drying they would have to store the clothes somewhere before distributing them to the various cupboards throughout the castle.



There were no cupboards in a castle. There were chests, and everyday clothes were stored inside them.

You have to take into account that, although there were several rooms in a castle, the lord and lady would be the only ones to have one just for themselves. Their children would share one, and there would be one for guests.

The servants would sleep all together on straw mats scattered on the hall room, along with the master´s dogs. No bedlinen for them; if they owned a cloak it would be their blanket.


----------



## spodulike

Valeria Mesalina said:


> There were no cupboards in a castle. There were chests, and everyday clothes were stored inside them.
> 
> You have to take into account that, although there were several rooms in a castle, the lord and lady would be the only ones to have one just for themselves. Their children would share one, and there would be one for guests.
> 
> The servants would sleep all together on straw mats scattered on the hall room, along with the master´s dogs. No bedlinen for them; oif they owned a cloak it would be their blanket.


 
I think it depends on the size of the castle and the number of courtiers etc. In the following link we see that towelling could be bought many centuries ago.

http://books.google.com/books?id=_A...esnum=10&ved=0CDIQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=&f=false


----------



## Södertjej

They don't even have wardrobes in Hogwarts. All the kids keep their clothes and stuff in their trunks.


----------



## Bushwhacker

Thank You to all of you. Quite an interesting medieval domestic lesson. Not quite sure about what's a linen cellar once for all, but maybe the tapestry theory makes sense.

Than You


----------



## spodulike

Södertjej said:


> They don't even have wardrobes in Hogwarts. All the kids keep their clothes and stuff in their trunks.


 
True, but I´ve seen how they clean their clothes by using magic, so they don´t need a laundry either! 

Speaking of how clean they were in mediaeval days, we can see that at least some of them kept clean if we search YouTube for this *Medieval laundry in Cefalu*,* Italy.* There seem to be some cellars in the vicinity as well.


----------



## Bushwhacker

spodulike said:


> True, but I´ve seen how they clean their clothes by using magic, so they don´t need a laundry either!
> 
> Speaking of how clean they were in mediaeval days, we can see that at least some of them kept clean if we search YouTube for this *Medieval laundry in Cefalu*,* Italy.* There seem to be some cellars in the vicinity as well.




Do you  mean the open lancet arched rooms?


----------



## spodulike

Bushwhacker said:


> Do you mean the open lancet arched rooms?


 
Yes

*cellar definition *
cel·lar (sel*′*ər)

noun
a room or group of *rooms below the ground level* and usually under a building, often used for storing fuel, provisions, or wines


----------



## Södertjej

spodulike said:


> Speaking of how clean they were in mediaeval days, we can see that at least some of them kept clean if we search YouTube for this *Medieval laundry in Cefalu*,* Italy.* There seem to be some cellars in the vicinity as well.


Lavaderos. We also have some left in Spain, wherever there was a river there was an area to do the laundry, some of them are even used now, even though they're no longer next to the river, as the water needs to be treated and recycled.

1.
2.
http://f1.fotos.es/f/297/993/22a50b6849d1555f93de88f985c4d6b9_0_576x576_lavadero-de-gualchos.jpg3.


----------



## Bushwhacker

spodulike said:


> Yes
> 
> *cellar definition *
> cel·lar (sel*′*ər)
> 
> noun
> 
> a room or group of *rooms below the ground level* and usually under a building, often used for storing fuel, provisions, or wines




I insist, all this is quite interesing, but in my text, without more information, it's hard to decide of which condition is this linen cellar. But it's true that it is in the lower level of the castle.

Cheers


----------



## Valeria Mesalina

spodulike said:


> I think it depends on the size of the castle and the number of courtiers etc. In the following link we see that towelling could be bought many centuries ago.



Told you there were linen cloths, not towels. 

Anyway, we´re talking about a _castle_, not a manor or a palace. Life in a castle was utterly different from life in a city. A castle was primarily a fortress, no matter its size.

So there would be a linen cellar, a wine cellar, an armoury, a larder, a reception hall, but not a kitchen. 

Linen cellar se puede traducir por "cuarto de los tapices".


----------



## capials

Bushwhacker said:


> In a medieval castle, what's a linen cellar?
> 
> Maybe the room where to weave? donde tejer?
> 
> Thanks


It could be of interest to learn the source of the term .


----------



## Södertjej

¿Y el cuarto de las telas? Quizá así nos curamos en salud y se cubren tapices, sábanas y demás tejidos.


----------



## Bushwhacker

capials said:


> It could be of interest to learn the source of the term .



What do you mean? linen, cellar, or linen cellar?


----------



## bondia

Valeria Mesalina said:


> Linen cloths. Those who washed themselves, who were not many.


 
I agree. Yes, those few who bothered to wash once in a while, would dry themselves on linen cloths. 
Aquí, en Baleares, estas _toallas_ se encuentran en anticuarios (cada vez menos). Son de hilo fino, muchas veces con las iniciales bordadas de la dueña.


----------



## Valeria Mesalina

Bushwhacker said:


> What do you mean? linen, cellar, or linen cellar?



No, s/he means maybe more context would help.


----------



## Bushwhacker

Södertjej said:


> ¿Y el cuarto de las telas? Quizá así nos curamos en salud y se cubren tapices, sábanas y demás tejidos.



Maybe, maybe


----------



## spodulike

Well, it is clear that some serious research is required here so, at this point, I respectfully bow out


----------



## Bushwhacker

spodulike said:


> Well, it is clear that some serious research is required here so, at this point, I respectfully bow out



Thank You anyway for the try. Bow out it's a nice and graphic word


----------



## Södertjej

I've googled a bit myself but no results about castles. Quite a few for "Linen Cellar Vintages" though. Canadian online store, they sell anything from tableclothes to scarves and hats. Sorry...


----------



## Valeria Mesalina

Södertjej said:


> I've googled a bit myself but no results about castles. . Sorry...



They should try _Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, Tristram et Yséult, The Canterbury Tales...

_Specially the first; it has some really vivid and detailed descriptions of life in a medieval castle. Though I don´t know if it has been translated into Modern English.


----------



## Bushwhacker

Valeria Mesalina said:


> They should try _Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, Tristram et Yséult, The Canterbury Tales...
> 
> _Specially the first; it has some really vivid and detailed descriptions of life in a medieval castle. Though I don´t know if it has been translated into Modern English.




Some linen cellar reference in there?


----------



## Valeria Mesalina

Bushwhacker said:


> Some linen cellar reference in there?



Yes. Hunting, armours, storing, dress, cooking, courting, jesting, festivities, tournaments. Anything you want.


----------



## spodulike

Here´s an online translation of Gawain http://www.lib.rochester.edu/Camelot/sggk.htm


----------



## maidinbedlam

Maybe a bit late but...it will depend strongly on what century we are talking about. 10th century castles were no more than a defensive tower, while the ones in the 15th century were as elaborate as a rich manor house would be. "Sir Gawain", an early medieval work, was translated into modern English by Tolkien, and in his own fiction he depicts constructions of the same type (in which I doubt we would find a "linen cellar").
But I suspect modern fantasy literature refers more to the Hogwarth type.
Therefore I support "el cuarto / la estancia de las telas" as the best translation possible.


----------



## mijoch

This reminds me of the old joke. "Just at the wall of a manicomio" un tío tiene un pinchazo. Al volver a colocar la rueda, con un golpe de pie tira las tuercas a la alcantarilla. Oye una voz. "Coge una tuerca de cada una de las otras tres ruedas para sujetar la que acabas de arreglar." Gracias, gracias, etc. Al prepararse para marcharse, recibe un golpe en una oreja, de un ladrillo---con el comentario.

Soy loco---no estúpido.

Voto por "Bedlam"

M.


----------



## Bushwhacker

mijoch said:


> This reminds me of the old joke. "Just at the wall of a manicomio" un tío tiene un pinchazo. Al volver a colocar la rueda, con un golpe de pie tira las tuercas a la alcantarilla. Oye una voz. "Coge una tuerca de cada una de las otras tres ruedas para sujetar la que acabas de arreglar." Gracias, gracias, etc. Al prepararse para marcharse, recibe un golpe en una oreja, de un ladrillo---con el comentario.
> 
> Soy loco---no estúpido.
> 
> Voto por "Bedlam"
> 
> M.




Val Lewton's production, isn't it? Great movie.


----------



## Valeria Mesalina

maidinbedlam said:


> Maybe a bit late but...it will depend strongly on what century we are talking about. 10th century castles were no more than a defensive tower, while the ones in the 15th century were as elaborate as a rich manor house would be.



It wasn´t easy to live in a castle, so, as time passed, castles were abandoned as their owners decided manors were more confortable places to live in. I assumed we were not talking about Neuschwanstein-type castles. There would be no need for a linen cellar in Neuschwanstein.



> "Sir Gawain", an early medieval work, was translated into modern English by Tolkien, and in his own fiction he depicts constructions of the same type (in which I doubt we would find a "linen cellar").



Thank you; having read the work in its original language, it will be interesting to read Tolkien´s version.
.


----------



## Manuel G. Rey

Todavía se pueden visitar en Inglaterra y en España castillos que conservan (o se ha repuesto) su mobiliario. Los tapices y reposteros se guardan en un lugar para ellos, 'cellar' o no.
Parecido es el caso de algunos monasterios y catedrales; los ornamentos litúrgicos se guardan en cajoneras en la sacristía, tapices y colgaduras, colgados en una estancia aparte.


----------

