# low, mid, checked tone (Burmese, Thai)



## Johnnypolyglot

Chinese names for tones

When discussing tones with native Mandarin speakers, I use the following names to identify the 5 tones of Mandarin.
(1) 阴平声 high, (2) 阳平声 rising, (3) 上声 dipping, (4) 去声 falling, (5) 轻声 neutral

This is fine for discussing any of the 5 tones of Mandarin Chinese. However, when I want to identify a tone outside of Mandarin Chinese, this is where I need the opinion of native Mandarin speakers.

Here are some tones (outside of Mandarin) that I am refering to by their name in Chinese.

低平声 (literally low level tone)
入声 (literally entering tone) (i.e. a syllable that ends in a glottal stop)
中平声 (literally mid level tone)

So my question is this. Would you understand 低平声, 入声 and 中平声 if I used these words with you?


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## vivi881121

Hello, I am not from mainland China but I'm from Taiwan, also a Mandarin-speaking country. (you can search it up if you don't know about it) 
For me, I wouldn't have understood that because we don't say it like that. We rather refer them as to 一聲 二聲 三聲 四聲 五聲(輕聲)
I don't know about the mainland China people, but that's what Taiwanese people use.
(I use traditional Chinese instead of simplified)


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## Johnnypolyglot

vivi881121, I appreciate your reply and I do hear what you are saying. However, I would be talking with them about tones OUTSIDE  the 5 tones of Mandarin, so I couldn't refer to a tone by its tone  number if it is a tone from another language which they do not know. If I  was speaking to them about Mandarin tones, then yes, I could use 一聲 二聲  etc. and they would understand no problem. Tone numbers only work for  people who know what tone is associated with what tone number.

For  example, if I pronounced something and they asked me what tone is it  and it was a "checked" tone in Burmese, I couldn't reference 一聲 二聲 etc.  because they wouldn't know the tone order in Burmese. Also "checked" is  not a "tonal pitch", but a linguistic characteristic of a syllable (it  has a glottal stop). 

My objective was to state the tone names in  a manner that they would understand similar to the naming structure  they are already used to.

I am probably just going to give a descriptive name of the tone instead of trying to reference another tone name from a different Chinese dialect as it might confuse them more if I use the names I was originally going to use.

So, I will probably use the following for tones OUTSIDE of Mandarin.

低调 (use this for the low tone)
中调 (use this for the mid tone)

For the checked tone, if I can't use 入声, then I will have to describe it and just mention the 聲門塞音 (glottal stop). I am not sure how to convey checked tone to Mandarin speakers as this tone does not exist in Mandarin.

The creaky tone was easier because it was similar in sound to the Mandarin falling tone, so I simply refer to it as 去声 and that would give them a general idea.


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## vivi881121

Oh so you are looking for names of 低平声 入声, 中平声 that people who are learning Chinese can understand? 
Normally, we don't use the 3 extra tones and not every Chinese speakers knows about them. They derive back from the ancient poetry/literature. But if you want to really state a name for each of them so people can understand, I would suggest keep the name in the original form and instead you can describe to them how they sound like. For example like you said "低聲", you can tell them that the property of the tone is that it's very low, etc.


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## SuperXW

Cantonese has 6+3 tones. If you really want to research phonetics terminology, you may refer to those terms. (Or maybe you already did.)
However, most Chinese don't even know what "阴平/阳平/上声/去声" mean, let alone terms like "低平音/入声/中平声". 
"1234 light" 一二三四轻声 are the most understandable way, since that's the way school teaches. (Mainland people don't say "五声" for "轻声".)
I know when we really speak, we shift tones rapidly. Many Chinese never notice those changes, so the terms would be quite unfamiliar.

For foreign tones,
I support you on using 低调 中调, or 低平调 中平调... Those sound much easier for me to understand. 
Because when we sing songs, we discuss about 调 for "pitch", while 声 is for "sound/voice" in general.
I would personally avoid to name them "x声", because "低声/高声" can also mean "low/high volume", and "中声" sounds like "钟声/终生"...Too ambiguous.


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## Quetzalcoatlus

I am not familiar with "低平“. The whole system included "平，上，去，入“  four tones in ancient Chinese. And for some dialects, every tone split into two tones “阴” and "阳” according to the consonants. ( “阴”  corresponds to voiceless consonants, and "阳” voiced consonants) This makes a total of eight tones. However, since the system was stipulated, different tones in different dialects have gradually undergone changes. In Mandarin, for example, "入声“ is completely lost, annihilated into other tones and only 平声 splits into 阴平 and 阳平. In Cantonese, all the 8 tones are retained and another tone 中入 has been added. But please notice the same tone in the system can sound entirely different in different dialects. For instance, 阳平 in Cantonese is not a rising tone at all.


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## SuperXW

Quetzalcoatlus said:


> But please notice the same tone in the system can sound entirely different in different dialects. For instance, 阳平 in Cantonese is not a rising tone at all.


That's what bothered me from the beginning. 
If they are completely different now, how should they still be called "the same tone"? Or are they just "different tones" with "the same old names"?


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## Quetzalcoatlus

I think for learning dialects, they are different tones with the same old names


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## SuperXW

Quetzalcoatlus said:


> But please notice the same tone in the system can sound entirely different in different dialects. For instance, 阳平 in Cantonese is not a rising tone at all.


雖然大部分普通話的「陽平」在粵語中同樣是「陽平」，但也有一部分並不對應（隨便舉一例：「燭」字在普通話中是「陽平」，而粵語中不是）。造成了「文字寫法」、「音調名稱」、「實際音調」全不統一，這「陽平」二字在我看來，也就變得弊大於利了。


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## Ghabi

Johnnypolyglot said:


> For the checked tone, if I can't use 入声, then I will have to describe it and just mention the 聲門塞音 (glottal stop). I am not sure how to convey checked tone to Mandarin speakers as this tone does not exist in Mandarin.


入声 still exists in many Mandarin dialects (such as those of Southwestern Mandarin), often realized as a glottal stop (instead of the traditional k/t/p). So I think there's a chance that many of your listeners actually understand what you mean by 入声.


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## Johnnypolyglot

vivi881121 said:


> Oh so you are looking for names of 低平声 入声, 中平声 that people who are learning Chinese can understand?



vivi881121, I know you mean well and I do appreciate your reply. I am not looking for the names of tones for people who are learning Chinese. That is not my question. Chinese speakers already speak Chinese and they already know the names of the tones native to their language.

SuperXW understood the question and gave a good answer. You can look at his reply.

In closure, if I am discussing a mid tone from Thai language with a native Mandarin speaker then I will refer to that tone as 中调 (they may or may not understand this, depends on the person I am talking to). If I try to take a shortcut and reference a mid tone from a non-Mandarin dialect, then it may create confusion due to the ambiguous nature of tone names across Chinese dialects. Trust me on this, I spent a lot of time and there is no consistency in tone naming conventions across Chinese dialects. Even if there was, it still wouldn't matter because the person may not know the tone name from another dialect anyways. Explaining the tone in as simple terms as I know how appears to be the best route.

Ghabi, thanks for that answer. That is good to hear because the linguistic explanation for that one is a doozy.


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## Ghabi

Johnnypolyglot said:


> Trust me on this, I spent a lot of time and  there is no consistency in tone naming conventions across Chinese  dialects.


This is not really a matter of "consistency", as  the tone names used in modern dialects are not meant to be descriptive,  but only reference to Middle Chinese, the artificial phonological system  based on the ancient rhyme dictionaries (with the exception of 入声 of  course, which has undergone the process of 入派三声 in many dialects).


> Even if there was, it still wouldn't matter because  the person may not know the tone name from another dialect anyways.  Explaining the tone in as simple terms as I know how appears to be the  best route.


And of course you're right. When the Chinese linguists want to be descriptive, they use 平调/升调/降调/高调/中调/低调 and combinations of these as you do.


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