# pan y circo



## Magmod

¿Cuál es el significado de *pan y circo* en esta *oración*?:

Sin embargo, algunos de mis entrevistados tienen una visión más crítica y consideran el fútbol como _*pan y circo*_, un entretenimiento para dormir a los ciudadanos, que así no piensan en los problemas sociales y económic*o*s de España.

¿Hay alguno modismo en inglés que significa lo mismo?

Saludos a todos mis amigos.

Nota de la moderadora araceli: Regla 11.


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## sound shift

I've heard the very similar "bread and circuses" in English. It's used by those who wish to imply that the activity in question serves to keep the masses happy and docile.


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## silmulit

Pan y circo es un dicho antiguo. En teoría el origen proviene de Roma y viene a decir que a la gente le daba lo mismo lo que pasase en Roma o lo corruptos que fuesen los políticos siempre y cuando tuviesen "pan y circo", es decir, comida y entretenimiento en el circo romano. De ahí se quedó. 

No sé si hay algo similar en inglés ;-)


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## paul355915

sound shift said:


> I've heard the very similar "bread and circuses" in English. It's used by those who wish to imply that the activity in question serves to keep the masses happy and docile.



...and distracts them from what is really go on/important.


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## sound shift

paul355915 said:


> ...and distracts them from what is really go on/important.


 (I'm taking "go" as a typo, of course.)


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## Magmod

Gracias a todos. Pero 
¿Hay alguno modismo actualizado en inglés que significa lo mismo?


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## sound shift

As far as I am aware, "bread and circuses" is still 'actualizado' because I've heard it lately and I have no difficulty finding recent online occurrences of it.


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## paul355915

Magmod said:


> Gracias a todos. Pero
> ¿Hay alguno modismo actualizado en inglés que significa lo mismo?



If you read or watch any alternative news, this phrase is very much de moda.


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## Sendro Páez

Magmod said:


> Gracias a todos. Pero ¿*h*ay alg*ún* modismo actualizado en inglés que signifi*que* lo mismo?


The original Latin phrase is '_Panem et circenses_'. You can read about it here, where they let us learn that it's been mentioned in the book _Hunger Games_, so this idiom has its ticket to immortality granted ─ please, read (just) a bit of sarcasm. This may explain what paul355915 has pointed out.

Once there, you can also click on the link to the English version of the article which it's not titled in Latin but in English, as it were a set phrase in your language too.


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## Marabunta

silmulit said:


> Pan y circo es un dicho antiguo. En teoría el origen proviene de Roma y viene a decir que a la gente le daba lo mismo lo que pasase en Roma o lo corruptos que fuesen los políticos siempre y cuando tuviesen "pan y circo", es decir, comida y entretenimiento en el circo romano. De ahí se quedó.
> 
> No sé si hay algo similar en inglés ;-)


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## GreenWhiteBlue

"Bread and circuses" has been a well-known, regularly-used phrase in English for many, many years.  You can read the Wikipedia page in English about this phrase here.


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## Magmod

Out of 27 English students and the teacher have not heard of this expression.
They have also searched it online. *Bread and circuses* is not acceptable


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## GreenWhiteBlue

Magmod said:


> Out of 27 English students and the teacher have not heard of this expression.
> They have also searched it online. *Bread and circuses* is not acceptable



It's a pity that the students and the teacher have been subjected to deficient educations.  I assure you that "bread and circuses" is entirely acceptable as an English expression, and that it is in use today.

Here, for example, is a recent letter to the editor of the _New York Times_ (which admittedly is not intended for the sort of readership who keep the _Sun_ in business):



> Frank Bruni accurately describes the gradual decline of political dignity and reality. He might have easily summed it up in a phrase: bread and circuses.



For a British source, here is the Telegraph with an article entitled "David Cameron must offer us more than just bread and circuses."


And here is the Telegraph again:


> To a pretentious bore, The Apprentice, The X Factor and Strictly Come Dancing are all 'bread and circuses', says Michael Deacon.



The 27 students and their teacher might therefore want to take this opportunity to expand their English vocabularies.


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## paul355915

Magmod said:


> Out of 27 English students and the teacher have not heard of this expression.
> They have also searched it online. *Bread and circuses* is not acceptable



you can't imagine how sad this makes me feel


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## iribela

paul355915 said:


> you can't imagine how sad this makes me feel


Maybe they're getting too much entertainment and not enough enlightenment. What are you going to do? It's all bread and circuses. Some might say 'too much happy hour.'


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## gengo

Magmod said:


> Out of 27 English students and the teacher, none has heard of this expression.
> They have also searched it online. *Bread and circuses* is not acceptable



I don't want to jump on the dogpile by saying that you _should_ know this expression, but it really, really is in widespread use among educated English speakers.  However, if you want to dumb down the text, you could say this:

_...consideran el fútbol como pan y circo, un entretenimiento para dormir a los ciudadanos,...
...consider soccer to be an opiate of the masses, entertainment to put citizens to sleep..._

Or is Karl Marx also too high-fallutin'?


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## Cynthia M.

The expression is known well enough that it was actually used for a chain of natural food stores in the Boston area at one time.


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## Magmod

GreenWhiteBlue said:


> It's a pity that the students and the teacher have been _*subjected to deficient educations*_.


All the students and the teacher are graduates and their total age is about 1800 years  and obviously not subjected to deficient education.
Otherwise thanks for your excellent reply Sir GreenWhiteBlue.
_*Managed decline*_ is suggested as the meaning of* pan y circo *in the _Daily Telegraph_ article*. *
The teacher suggested *the essential and the frivolous.*
Yes I like *opiate of the masses *in spite of the fact I don't know what highfalutin mean


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## gengo

Magmod said:


> _*Managed decline*_ is suggested as the meaning of* pan y circo *in the _Daily Telegraph_ article.



I don't understand managed decline at all in this context.  Do you?



> The teacher suggested *the essential and the frivolous.*



That is wrong, in my opinion.  The basic idea of the original Latin phrase was just that it is easy to keep the _hoi polloi_ complacent, as long as you keep them fed and entertained.  And this concept was extremely important to the rulers of Rome.  An unhappy populace could cause serious problems, so this idea of placating the people was no joke.  Roman emperors (and kings before them) spent vast sums on shows in the arenas, and when food supplies would run low in hard times, the ruler would often distribute it, paying for it from his own account.



> Yes I like *opiate of the masses *in spite of the fact I don't know what highfalutin mean



I wondered if that might throw you, as it is American dialect.  But I'm sure you deduced the meaning from the context.


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## paul355915

I like MANAGED DECLINE probably because I agree this is what is really happening.  Anyone who comes out with MANAGED DECLINE surely knows implications of BREAD AND CIRCUSES so why it isn't acceptable I just don't know.


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## gengo

paul355915 said:


> I like MANAGED DECLINE probably because I agree this is what is really happening.  Anyone who comes out with MANAGED DECLINE surely knows implications of BREAD AND CIRCUSES so why it isn't acceptable I just don't know.



I didn't say it is unacceptable.  I said I don't understand it in this context.

From Wikipedia:
_Managed decline is a phrase that refers to the management of the decline (or "sunset") phase at the end of a lifecycle, with the goal of minimizing costs or other forms of losses and harm. The concept originated in business where it referred to the management of companies and industries, but has since spread beyond to be used in other contexts._

How does that fit the original context?

_Sin embargo, algunos de mis entrevistados tienen una visión más crítica y consideran el fútbol como pan y circo, un entretenimiento para dormir a los ciudadanos, que así no piensan en los problemas sociales y económicos de España._

That text seems to be merely saying that soccer helps keep people's minds off their economic woes.  Is there some connection to managed decline that I am missing?


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## paul355915

gengo said:


> I didn't say it is unacceptable.  I said I don't understand it in this context.
> 
> From Wikipedia:
> _Managed decline is a phrase that refers to the management of the decline (or "sunset") phase at the end of a lifecycle, with the goal of minimizing costs or other forms of losses and harm. The concept originated in business where it referred to the management of companies and industries, but has since spread beyond to be used in other contexts._
> 
> How does that fit the original context?
> 
> _Sin embargo, algunos de mis entrevistados tienen una visión más crítica y consideran el fútbol como pan y circo, un entretenimiento para dormir a los ciudadanos, que así no piensan en los problemas sociales y económicos de España._
> 
> That text seems to be merely saying that soccer helps keep people's minds off their economic woes.  Is there some connection to managed decline that I am missing?



Depends on you world view Gengo. I going to leave it at that.


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## gengo

paul355915 said:


> Depends on you world view Gengo. I going to leave it at that.



Please don't.  If I'm missing something, I truly want to know what it is.  What life cycle is in decline here and being managed?  How does that relate to the Spanish sentence?


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## catrina

Yo lo he oído al revés que el pan y circo es como el futbol, ya que las noticias importantes se quedan en segundo plano si hay un partido importante

¡Excelentes aportaciones en esta discusión! Yo también quiero saber el matiz que le inquieta a gengo, así que me apunto para seguir el hilo

Un saludo


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## Marabunta

I really don't understand what's so difficult to understand. "Give food and entertainment to populace and we keep on doing our way, even if it's against them".  Really, so difficult? That's how it works.


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## GreenWhiteBlue

Magmod said:


> All the students and the teacher are graduates and their total age is about 1800 years  and obviously not subjected to deficient education.


I disagree.  I would say that university graduates with an average age of 64 years who not only have never come across the common phrase "bread and circuses", but who find it "unacceptable" because they are not familiar with it, have each had an education that was severely deficient in two ways.
First, it was deficient because it did not expose them to a phrase received from classical antiquity that one might assume all educated people should know.  Second, their education is deficient in that it didn't teach them that even though they have passed middle age, they should still open their minds sufficiently to be able to accept new information, and especially information that, while new to them, is common knowledge to educated people.



> _*Managed decline*_ is suggested as the meaning of* pan y circo *in the _Daily Telegraph_ article*. *


  I would call that a poor suggestion.  There is nothing in the phrase that suggests the concept of "managed decline."



> The teacher suggested *the essential and the frivolous. *


 In that case, the teacher clearly misses the whole point of the phrase.


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## FromPA

Magmod said:


> All the students and the teacher are graduates and their total age is about 1800 years  and obviously not subjected to deficient education.



It's not at all obvious to me.


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## Magmod

GreenWhiteBlue said:


> For a British source, here is the Telegraph with an article entitled "David Cameron must offer us more than just *bread and circuses*."


The final sentence of the Telegraph article rephrased the heading as follows:
_Cameron must find the words and deeds to convince a fretful, burdened nation that his plans amount to more than *“managed decline”.*_
Your post #26 shows clearly it's you who is incapable of comprehending the long article you suggested and therefore lack education 

In the following article:
Donald Trump
because the phrase _*bread and circuses*_ is not common, the writer recommended a tutorial:
_ If you don’t know the term,*“bread and circuses,” here’s a tutorial*_


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## Magmod

FromPA said:


> It's not at all obvious to me.


Education *   ducation*is the process of receiving or giving systematic instruction, especially at a school or university.
Is it obvious to you now ?


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## gengo

Magmod said:


> The final sentence of the Telegraph article rephrased the heading as follows:
> _Cameron must find the words and deeds to convince a fretful, burdened nation that his plans amount to more than *“managed decline”.*_
> Your post #26 shows clearly it's you who is incapable of comprehending the long article you suggested and therefore lack education



This may be British English, because I do not understand how managed decline could have that meaning.  And since all of you Brits seem to refuse to explain the meaning to me, I suppose I must remain mired in my ignorance.  To me, the above quotation means that Cameron must convince the public that his plans are more than just slowing the decline of the situation, that instead his plans are aimed at turning the situation around and improving it.  That is very different from the concept of bread and circuses, at least in my English.



> In the following article:
> Donald Trump
> because the phrase _*bread and circuses*_ is not common, the writer recommended a tutorial:
> _ If you don’t know the term,*“bread and circuses,” here’s a tutorial*_



That may say more about the education level of the average Trump supporter than it does about how well known the phrase is among the general, educated populace.

I don't think anyone here is saying that _every native English speaker_ knows this phrase.  We are just saying that it is in widespread use among educated speakers, and anyone who is interested in improving their vocabulary should be open to learning it.


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## Magmod

gengo said:


> This may be British English, because I do not understand how managed decline could have that meaning.  And since all of you Brits seem to refuse to explain the meaning to me, I suppose I must remain mired in my ignorance.  To me, the above quotation means that Cameron must convince the public that his plans are more than just slowing the decline of the situation, that instead his plans are aimed at turning the situation around and improving it.  That is very different from the concept of bread and circuses, at least in my English.


The Telegraph article was written before the last UK General Election. As explained in the article, the Austerity is the Bread and the Olympics (held in the UK) and the Queen's Diamond Jubilee's national celebrations are the Circuses.


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## paul355915

BREAD is not AUSTERITY in this case.


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## Sendro Páez

I agree with gengo (posts 16, 19, 21, and 30), strongly with FromPA (27), and with GreenWhiteBlue (13 and 26). Phrases like "managed decline," and "the essential and the frivolous" have nothing to do with the sentence you posted, Magmod.

Obviously, we could identify _the essential_ as "_los problemas sociales y económicos de España_," and _the frivolous_ as "_el fútbol_," but that is not the phrase you're seeking, because you would have to rephrase the whole sentence to make it fit.

What it's also obvious (to me, at least) is that '_pan y circo_' might be one the policies a wicked politician would consider in the case of a managed decline, but I would never use _bread and circuses_ and _managed decline_ interchangeably.

Since I'm really fed up with popularity contests, and absolutely annoyed with the global pressure against educated people, making them feel ashamed of having studied and learnt, I'd follow gengo's advice:


gengo said:


> We are just saying that it is in widespread use among educated speakers, and anyone who is interested in improving their vocabulary should be open to learning it.


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## Sendro Páez

Hold on, Magmod. I think I've just realised what's the problem. After reading #31, I'm afraid you don't understand the meaning of the phrase. Please, click on the link I pasted in #9 (or, the one GreenWhiteBlue posted in #11, but I think this is worse).


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## gengo

Magmod said:


> The Telegraph article was written before the last UK General Election. As explained in the article, the Austerity is the Bread and the Olympics (held in the UK) and the Queen's Diamond Jubilee's national celebrations are the Circuses.



Thank you for attempting an explanation, but what I want explained is how "managed decline" could have the same meaning as bread and circuses.  In AmEn it cannot, as far as I know, but if it can have that meaning in BrEn, please explain how.


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## FromPA

Magmod said:


> Education *   ducation*is the process of receiving or giving systematic instruction, especially at a school or university.
> Is it obvious to you now ?


 Yes, I think I understand now.  There's no such thing as a deficient education. I should have known.


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## Amapolas

Apart from all the discussion generated, the meaning of the phrase is ecplained in the original sentence itself: "un entretenimiento para dormir a los ciudadanos, que así no piensan en los problemas sociales y económic*o*s de España." And the historical origin of the phrase was explained in a later post.

Moreover, if you type the phrase in Google, you get lots of different hits. It was even used for the name of a Star Trek episode (from the original series). 

From my own experience, the phrase is widely known and used in Spanish, and I'm sure I've heard or read it in English.


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## duvija

Google Ngram Viewer

for American Eng. It seems now it's written with capital letters!


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## duvija

But in Brit Eng...

Google Ngram Viewer


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## GreenWhiteBlue

duvija said:


> Google Ngram Viewer
> 
> for American Eng. It seems now it's written with capital letters!



That's because you looked up "bread and circus" rather than "bread and circuses", with the plural of "circus" being the standard form.  When you do that, here are the (very different) results in American English.


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## Magmod

paul355915 said:


> BREAD is not AUSTERITY in this case.


in other words, you agree that in the opinion of the writer of the Telegraph long article that the Olympics (held in the UK) and the Queen's Diamond Jubilee's national celebrations are the *Circuses*.
_So what's in the opinion of the writer is the *Bread*?  _
Similarly back to my question in #1, the writer expresses his opinion of the meaning of the phrase, in relation to football, which is different from original literal Roman meaning.
I prefer _*opiate of the people*_ to _Bread and Circuses_. This is because I agree with Karl Marx (and Descartes) in that football is becoming, like religion, to be the opiate of the people.


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## Magmod

FromPA said:


> Yes, I think I understand now.  There's no such thing as a deficient education. I should have known.


If your education is deficient, you'll fail your exams and won't get a degree


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## Sendro Páez

Please, Magmod, note that in post #34 I wrote:


Sendro Páez said:


> After reading #31, I'm afraid you don't understand the meaning of the phrase [_Bread and circuses_, or "_Pan y circo_"].


Now, after reading #41, I'm pretty sure you do not understand the phrase at all. Both _bread_ and _circuses_ are football, or the _opiate of the people_ if you want! Please, once again, read the external link I posted!


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## Magmod

Sendro : _So what's in the opinion of the writer is the *Bread*? #41_


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## Amapolas

Magmod, you're not supposed to discriminate between bread and circus. The phrase is not supposed to be taken literally but as a whole, meaning whatever means are used by the powers that be to keep the people from calm and quiet. It doesn't mean that bread refers to one thing and circuses to another.

In antiquity it was a strategy: feed the people and give them free entertainment to keep them calm and under control. That's what the original phrase meant and that's how it is understood, as a strategy to keep the masses from making trouble.

In your original post, do not take the phrase literally, as meaning that, because football is a game, it is the circus, and that there is something else that is the bread. Football is the 'bread and circus', i.e. the strategy or the means used to keep the people from thinking too much about social problems and economic crisis.


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## Magmod

Many thanks for your explanation Amapolas which I'm partly in agreement.
In times of hardship during Roman times, together with circuses, people were fed cheaply with *bread *according to the phrase. 
*Therefore you can't suddenly ignore bread as if it wasn't part of the phrase.*
In Spain with economic problems and little money, people were fed cheaply according to the speaker. Football is used to alleviate their problems.
In the UK, austerity is again what was given to the people together with Olympics and Jubilee's celebrations. 
Similarly with  these phrases:
Contigo pan y cebolla 
Pan y agua


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## Agró

"Sin embargo, algunos de mis entrevistados tienen una visión más crítica y consideran el fútbol como _*pan y circo*_, un entretenimiento para dormir a los ciudadanos"

_Fútbol: pan y circo _(both, not just circuses).

Little money? We may be not as wealthy as you, but believe me, the Government is not feeding the populace.


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## Amapolas

Believe me, Magmod, this is *not* about soup kitchens *plus* entertainment. But if you want to keep looking for a pink dragon, suit yourself. 
Incidentally, the other two phrases you mentioned (contigo pan y cebolla, a pan y agua) are totally unrelated.


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## gengo

Amapolas said:


> In your original post, do not take the phrase literally, as meaning that, because football is a game, it is the circus, and that there is something else that is the bread. Football is the 'bread and circus', i.e. the strategy or the means used to keep the people from thinking too much about social problems and economic crisis.



Totalmente de acuerdo.  Sin embargo, en inglés la frase debe usarse con circus en el plural:  bread and circuses.

Y por cierto, Magmod, la frase hecha no es "opiate of the people," sino "of the masses."


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