# All Slavic languages: baka/baca



## Maroseika

In Russian there is an expression *забить баки*, meaning *to throw dust in eyes (*figuratively - to cheat).
Usually Russian expression is explained just in the same literal sense like the English analog, meaning that бака - eye.
This word *бака* is supposed to be common Slavic stem: Polish baczyć, Ukr. ба́чити, Bulg. ба́чыць - all from *ob-ačiti, which is connected with око, common for all Slavic languages. Same stem is used almost in all I.E. languages too.
However I failed to find the word бака - eye in any Slavic language in any appropriate sense, except Polish *baca - starszy pasterz owiec, któremu podlegają juhasi dozorujący stada owiec w polskich Karpatach.*
We may interprete this "baca" as "senior eye among the herders", but I'm not sure that's correct.

However there is also another group of versions explaining забить баки and even Slavic verb from Turkish *bakmak - to see *and *bakış - a view*.

Thus my question: is there any word in any Slavic language as *baka/baca = eye*, deriving from well known Slavic verb *baczyć*?


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## Tolovaj_Mataj

I'm sorry but in common nowadays Slovene both words are unknown and have absolutely no meaning. 
I've never even heard it when people have spoken any kind of Slovene dialect.


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## Irbis

Pleteršnik Slovenian-German dictionary from 1895 has a word "bak" with translation "der Widder, der Leithammel" (ram, bellwether). The word seems to be localised to a dialect near Hungarian border.


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## tkekte

You probably won't find that word outside of the Poland-Ukraine-Belarus area. So I still think it came from Turkish into Ukrainian and then spread further... which explains why it's common in Ukrainian but rare in Polish (widziec is by far preferred). Now we just need to know whether it's rare or common in Belarussian, since Belarus hasn't been under Turkish rule... Cyanista, help us. 

(btw that "Bulg." there is supposed to be "Blr.")


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## tkekte

I found this



> Apoftegmata
> Wielkiemu panu nie wszystko baczyć
> Jan Kochanowski


Jan Kochanowski is 1530-1584, so the verb baczyć already existed in Poland in the 16th century and was understood. That's about the same time when Turkey was actively dealing with slave trade in Ukraine.

PS: Now I just wish I knew what apoftegmata means.


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## Maroseika

Irbis said:


> Pleteršnik Slovenian-German dictionary from 1895 has a word "bak" with translation "der Widder, der Leithammel" (ram, bellwether). The word seems to be localised to a dialect near Hungarian border.


Like I wrote in my initial message, Polish has *baka* with quite the same sense.


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## Maroseika

tkekte said:


> You probably won't find that word outside of the Poland-Ukraine-Belarus area. So I still think it came from Turkish into Ukrainian and then spread further... which explains why it's common in Ukrainian but rare in Polish (widziec is by far preferred). Now we just need to know whether it's rare or common in Belarussian, since Belarus hasn't been under Turkish rule... Cyanista, help us.
> 
> (btw that "Bulg." there is supposed to be "Blr.")


Belorussian - бачыць. 
I don't like Turkish version at all, mainly because this word is too common in said Slavic languages - so common that even used as a way to say good-bye (до побачення), and these formulae are usely rather archaic and change very slowly.
Besides, Turkish influence on these peoples (except Bulgaria) was not so long and strong as to substitute such usual words. I'd rather think about Turk influence, unless my prvious argument.


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## Maroseika

tkekte said:


> PS: Now I just wish I knew what apoftegmata means.


aphorism


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## tkekte

Strange. I thought aphorism is called aforyzm in Polish. http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aforyzm this doesn't even mention the word "apoftegmata".


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## Maroseika

tkekte said:


> Strange. I thought aphorism is called aforyzm in Polish. http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aforyzm this doesn't even mention the word "apoftegmata".


Апофегмата (греч.) — краткие остроумные изречения, сборники которых являются у нас уже в XVII в. в переводе с польского языка. В польской литературе уже в XVI веке явились "Apophegmata albo Przipowieśći przipadie, s których się moze wiele rzeczy przestrzecz", изд. 1562 г. Другой такой же сборник, Витковского, относится к началу XVII века, третий, послуживший образцом русскому, написан Бенятом Будным и издан в начале XVII стол. п. з. "Krótkich a węzlowatych powieści, które po grecku zowią Apophegmate ksiąg czworo". Их русский рукописный перевод XVII в. тоже представляет четыре книги, из которых первая заключает в себе изречения философов, вторая — царей и полководцев, третья — лакедемонян, четвертая — честных женщин; изложение их анекдотично, так как каждое поучение или изречение мотивировано коротеньким рассказом. В 1711 г. рукопись была напечатана п. з. "Кратких, витиеватых и нравоучительных повестей книги три. В них же положены различные вопросы и ответы, жития и поступки, пословицы и беседования различных философов древних. Переведены с польского на словенский язык. Повелением же Царского величества напечатаны в Москве лета Господня 1711 в марте". Второе издание было 1716 г., М., дальнейшие: СПб., 1723, 1745, 1763, 1765, 1781. Во всех этих печатных изданиях только три книги, между тем как в рукописи четыре (БиЕ)


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## jazyk

I found the Turkish word in this dictionary. I don't know what are its connotations, since I don't speak Turkish.


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## Maroseika

jazyk said:


> I found the Turkish word in this dictionary. I don't know what are its connotations, since I don't speak Turkish.


Thank you, Yazyk. 
However we already know there is such a word in Turkish (bakmak, bak). The question is it connected with the Slavic word бачить, or this is just an occasional coincidence.


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## tkekte

If it was a common Slavic root, then it would exist elsewhere outside the Ukraine/Poland area... doesn't that make sense? Although there are also words like okręt (ship) and czołg (tank) which aren't found anywhere outside of Polish. "Okręt" might be genetically related to kręcić, but I'm not sure how the semantic jump is made. "to twist" -> "ship" ... there is nothing twisted about ships.


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## Maroseika

tkekte said:


> If it was a common Slavic root, then it would exist elsewhere outside the Ukraine/Poland area... doesn't that make sense?


I'm not sure I understand what do you mean talking about the "Ukraine/Poland area".
We already noticed this word in Russian, Ukrainian, Belorussian, Polish and Bulgarian, i.e. in all three Slavic groups: Eastern, Western and Southern.



> Although there are also words like okręt (ship) and czołg (tank) which aren't found anywhere outside of Polish. "Okręt" might be genetically related to kręcić, but I'm not sure how the semantic jump is made. "to twist" -> "ship" ... there is nothing twisted about ships.


 
You mean this is also Turkish loan? Anyway, each word should be considered separately.


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## Maroseika

I found Czech word bača - sheeperman (like in Slovenian, as we see).
Thus, we may assume that in both Slovenian and Czech this word remained only in this sense, unless somebody explains this word - sheeperman - some other way.

By the way, in Czech there is also *báchorkář* - tales narrator. And in Russian the second meaning of word бачить - to tell stories (баять, бахорить - Dahl).


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## tkekte

No, with the okręt example I meant that "bak" (eyes ~ seeing) might be a Slavic root, since there are other Slavic words in poland which aren't found anywhere else... like this okręt, I'm not sure where it comes from, and what other words it's connected to.

What are the examples of бачить in Russian and Bulgarian?


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## Maroseika

tkekte said:


> What would are the examples of бачить in Russian and Bulgarian?


Examples? What do you mean?


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## OldAvatar

Maroseika said:


> I found Czech word bača - sheeperman (like in Slovenian, as we see).
> Thus, we may assume that in both Slovenian and Czech this word remained only in this sense, unless somebody explains this word - sheeperman - some other way.



_Baci_ means shepherd, sheeperman in Romanian, too. Also, it is used sometimes as a form of respect towards old people.


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## tkekte

So we have a word something like "baca" in ... Romanian, Hungarian, Polish, Czech, Slovenian... I guess it originated somewhere on the Balkans, and the Carpathian sheep herders took it up too? (Perhaps via Hungarian as a proxy?)

Maroseika: I meant examples of a word like "бачить" in Russian or Bulgarian. You said they exist. Бачити is definitely an Ukrainian word, even if it might be found in Russian speech somewhere, it's probably a dialectal borrowing... and I never saw anything resembling that word in Bulgarian. I think you keep confusing Bulgarian with Belarusian. Please recheck...

In Bulgarian there is a verb бацам, but it means a totally different thing. 

Also apparently Bulgaria doesn't have the baca sheepherder. (More info from natives appreciated!)


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## OldAvatar

In my oppinion, as I said in another thread, the word is of Turkic origin (not Turkish), probably a word that Bulgars or maybe Cumans commonly used.


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## Tolovaj_Mataj

tkekte said:


> So we have a word something like "*baca"* in ... Romanian, Hungarian, Polish, Czech, *Slovenian*... I guess it originated somewhere on the Balkans, and the Carpathian sheep herders took it up too? (Perhaps via Hungarian as a proxy?)


 


Maroseika said:


> I found Czech word *bača* - sheeperman (like in *Slovenian*, as we see).


 
Tkekte, Maroseika,

do I really must repeat again: there's no word like this in Slovene. I cannot find it in SSKJ. Why do you repeat this again?
If Irbis wrote that the word exists in a dialect close to Hungary, then it must be imported from across the border. People in Prekmurje talk very strange for an average Slovenian ear.

*ovčár* shepherd; (rejec) sheep farmer, sheep breeder; (pes) sheepdog, shepherd dog 

There are many words which some posters here generalize they belong to south Slavic lang group, which cannot be found in Slovene. Maybe because we didn't share the common fate with Turkish rule. 

The only Bača which is known here is the name of the river. Before you jump on it: there are many rivers in this area which bear names of Illyric or Celtic origine like Sava, Drava, etc.


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## tkekte

I'm sorry, I was confused. Someone here stated that bača exists in Slovenian, so I assumed it's true. Sorry. 
Btw, can you post a link to this SSKJ? It would be nice to poke about with it.  Does it have etymologies?


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## Maroseika

tkekte said:


> I think you keep confusing Bulgarian with Belarusian. Please recheck...


You seriousely think this is possible?..
Anyway, I'm basing on the Vasmer's dictionary, look yourself: www.vasmer.narod.ru

[/quote]


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## Maroseika

Tolovaj_Mataj said:


> Tkekte, Maroseika,
> 
> do I really must repeat again: there's no word like this in Slovene. I cannot find it in SSKJ. Why do you repeat this again?
> If Irbis wrote that the word exists in a dialect close to Hungary, then it must be imported from across the border. People in Prekmurje talk very strange for an average Slovenian ear.


Maybe. Or maybe not. What we know for sure is that this word exists or existed in one of the modern Slovenian dialects.
It could be either loaned from the neigbours or could remain on the margin of the language since very long ago - this is a matter of special investigation. 
But the presence of the same words in Czech and Polish rather testifies to the latter.

Besides, here is what I found in the Russian encyclopedia of Brockhaus and Efron (end of the 19th century):
Бача - у словенцев и моравов, баца у поляков называется главный пастух овец в горах; он имеет главный надзор над стадом, доит овец и приготовляет сыр.
(Бача - chief sheep-herder in the mountains of Slovenia, Moravia and Poland...)
Therefore this word was quite widely spread yet 100 years ago.


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## OldAvatar

> Бача - у словенцев и моравов



Is there a possibility that Brockhaus and Efron would have made a little confusion between Slovakia and Slovenia?

As far as I know, Poland and Moravia are close to Slovakia and not to Slovenia...


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## Jana337

I can say that "bača" is a word that immediately makes me think about Slovakia and its mountains. Slovenia must be a mistake...


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## Kriviq

Maroseika said:


> We already noticed this word in Russian, Ukrainian, Belorussian, Polish and Bulgarian, i.e. in all three Slavic groups: Eastern, Western and Southern.



There is a word бака in Bulgarian, meaning vat, pail; I`m pretty sure there isn`t a word, bearing even a remote resemblance to бака, with the meaning of eye or s.th. like this.


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## dudasd

Balkan peninsula and *_bak_-:

1) originally Slavic verb _baciti, bacati _with usual prefixes also (_dobaciti_, _prebaciti_ etc) - to throw; it was common in all South Slavic languages. In Bulgarian and Macedonian nowadays mostly replaced with _frlam_ (mac.) and _hvarlyam_ (bulg.), but kept in archaic phrases like "_frlam puška_" (to shoot from rifle). In some of the local dialects _bačiti_ (palatalisation instead of sybilarisation). Derived nouns always with prefixes: _dobačaj_, _prebačaj_, _podbačaj_ etc.

2) originally Slavic noun _bak_ = _bull_ (in Slovenian meaning _ram_). (For more details about its development see thread in Slavic Languages section: All Slavic languages: the etimology of "Bakovič")

3) Macedonian verb _baknam _= to kiss. I don't have enough information about its etymology. Derived noun _baknež_. 

4) group of nouns similar to _бака _mentioned in the previous post, meaning "container" and ranging from wat to jug (_bakva_, _baklja_, _bačin_, _baćun_, _bačilj_ etc.). Roman Roman/Ancient Mediterranean origin (lat. _bucar_, _bacarium_, ital. _bacara _(wine container), iber. _bacca _(wine)) or maybe Greek (_boka _= mouth, opening, like in words _bokal _(jug) or _boka _(bay)). The influence of Greek and Roman culture in Bulgaria shouldn't be underestimated, as well as in other South Slavic areas,

5) Turkish *_bak_-: rare and only local use of exclamation _Bak_! or _Baka! - Look! See!_, now archaic; known only in areas with strong Turkish influence or amongst Moslem population. (Note: it's a root of a pure Turkish origin, according to Çağdaş Türkçenin Etimolojik Sözlüğü.)

*Bač* (cheaf of heardsmen) in South Slavic languages exists with Č or C without any following wovels (so no palatalisation or sybilarisation of *k*, *_bač _is the very root); *thus it doesn't belong to *bak- group*. Derived nouns with Slavic or Turkish suffixes: _bačija_, _bačilo_ etc.) Used sporradically, more often in areas influented by Wallachian, Albanian, Zincar etc. Commonly believed to be a widespreaded shepherd term of ancient inhabitants of Balkan, Dachia and Trachia and of non-slavic origin. (Also there is a mention of "Bač" as personal name; according to Daničić, "name of a Wallachian man that was given to Hilandar by king Milutin" - so it refers to the beginning of 14th century.)

If we don't count unaccompanied words like _baka _(diminutive of _baba_, grandmother); _bakam_ (arabic word meaning "rouge"); _bakulja_ ("white layer under tree bark" - maybe from _belkulja_, derived from *bel- = white?), I think I counted all the groups of words derived from *_bak_- or *_bъkъ_. Except of evidently Turkish _Bak!_, none of them has anything with eyes or seeing.


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## Maroseika

Kriviq said:


> There is a word бака in Bulgarian, meaning vat, pail; I`m pretty sure there isn`t a word, bearing even a remote resemblance to бака, with the meaning of eye or s.th. like this.


Sure, it isn't. bak/бак in Slavic languages is the German loan.



Maroseika said:


> Sure, it isn't. bak/бак is the German/Dutch loan - at least in Russian, with the first meaning &quot;big dish for a group of seamen.[/quot a02 e]
> 
> 
> 
> OldAvatar said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is there a possibility that Brockhaus and Efron would have made a little confusion between Slovakia and Slovenia?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think this is possible. This encyclopaedia was reprinted and reedited many times, each article was written by the specialists, so I believe to what it says.
Click to expand...


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## Maroseika

Very interesting analysis, dudasd!
However, what we can conclude of it:


dudasd said:


> Balkan peninsula and *_bak_-:
> 
> 1) originally Slavic verb _baciti, bacati _with usual prefixes also (_dobaciti_, _prebaciti_ etc) - to throw;


But does this mean that the same root couldn't mean something else? Compare with Russian homonyms бачить - to see (in the South); to chat (Central potois).



> 2) originally Slavic noun _bak_ = _bull_ (in Slovenian meaning _ram_). (For more details about its development see thread in Slavic Languages section: All Slavic languages: the etimology of "Bakovič")


Therefore we should separate this group (with baca - sheep-herder) from another group, connected with eyes/vision.



> 4) group of nouns similar to _бака _mentioned in the previous post, meaning "container"


And this is also, apperently, separated group of words.



> 5) Turkish *_bak_-: rare and only local use of exclamation _Bak_! or _Baka! - Look! See!_, now archaic; known only in areas with strong Turkish influence or amongst Moslem population. (Note: it's a root of a pure Turkish origin, according to Çağdaş Türkçenin Etimolojik Sözlüğü.)


Could you please place here this etymology?




> Except of evidently Turkish _Bak!_, none of them has anything with eyes or seeing


Then, there is a question to be resolved before we might choose Turkish version:
How came this rare Turkish word generated such common verbs in different Slavic languages? Especially this refers to Ukranian and Belorussian, where it is widely spread?


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## tkekte

Vasmer says that it's not from the Turki[c/sh: substite the necessary] verb, but from ob-ačiti, coming from _oči_ but the /o/ changed to an /a/. Which makes me roll my oči. It just seems so unlikely.

Even if such a verb came to be, it would rather mean something like "to have a good look", "to oggle", "осмотреть сверху до низу", but not just "to see"... that doesn't make sense semantically and gramatically.

Why would they use _ob-_ for a the description of a state (seeing)? This prefix is used to mean that the action is done from one end to another, embracing the whole.

Also, a verb with a prefix ending in -iti would be perfective. Think about it. *ob-ačiti [oбачить] sounds definitely *perfective*. But "to see" is imperfective.

And finally, why would the initial o- disappear? Are there any other ob-/o- verbs where the o- has disappeared?



> WORD: ба́чить
> 
> GENERAL: I. "видеть", южн., зап. (Даль), укр. ба́чити, блр. ба́чыць. Из польск. baczyć -- то же, которое образовано из *ob-ačiti и связано с óko "глаз"; ср. гомер. ὤψ, εἰς ὦπα "в лицо" и т. д.; см. Траутман, BSW 4 и сл.; Бернекер 1, 24; Jagić-Festschrift 598. Следует отвергнуть объяснение Маценауэра (LF 7, 4) из тюрк. bakmak "видеть".
> 
> TRUBACHEV: [Иначе, с привлечением польск. opatrzyć, слвц. páčit', объясняет эти слова Махек (SPFFBU 2, 1953, стр. 135; SPFFBU 4, 1955, стр. 32). -- Т.]


There is also a version that it's related to patrzyc... which also seems unlikely... I don't know any other Slavic-etymology examples where an initial /p/ would change to /b/. Mazenauer is apparently someone who agrees with me.


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## Maroseika

tkekte said:


> Even if such a verb came to be, it would rather mean something like "to have a good look", "to oggle", "осмотреть сверху до низу", but not just "to see"... that doesn't make sense semantically and gramatically.


Then what's about глазеть, глядеть?



> Why would they use _ob-_ for a the description of a state (seeing)? This prefix is used to mean that the action is done from one end to another, embracing the whole.


Just because this is standard model: смотреть - осматривать, глядеть - оглядывать.



> Also, a verb with a prefix ending in -iti would be perfective. Think about it. *ob-ačiti [oбачить] sounds definitely *perfective*. But "to see" is imperfective.


Обачить would be really perfective (meaning осмотреть), but we are talking about бачить!



> And finally, why would the initial o- disappear? Are there any other ob-/o- verbs where the o- has disappeared?


I'd rather say that perfective verb обачить has disappeared.


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## Tolovaj_Mataj

tkekte said:


> Btw, can you post a link to this SSKJ? It would be nice to poke about with it.  Does it have etymologies?


Sure. It suppose to be here: http://bos.zrc-sazu.si/sskj.html

No, the etymological dictionary is not on-line. Unfortunately.


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## tkekte

Dead link.


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## dudasd

Good news, Maroseika! 

Though my previous research confinmed nonexistance of a form similar to *baczyć *amongst South Slavs, with the conclusion that thus it can't be Panslavic (I had checked even in dictionaries of Medieval Slavonic), something very interesting occured to me today. Why to research *ba- root only? Maybe it suffered an inflection?

So I finally came to verbs *bečiti se*,* bečiti* and* bekeljiti*. They are very common even nowadays. Meanings are: 

bečiti se - to glare, to goggle, to stare
bečiti (transitive, always with "oči") - to open eyes wide (like in surprise or in unpolite staring)
bekeljiti se - to make grimaces

Unfortunately, etimology is poorly explained. The only explanation I found is that it's probably of "onomatopoeic origin" - like when you are making grimaces and saying "beeee" or "baaaa". Not excluded, sounds logical, though I am still not satisfied. But its existance here and the inflection confirm your assumption about its Slavic origin even more. (New-borrowed words don't suffer inflection of vowels.) And it can't be related to Turkish _bakmak _(which is really Turkish, without any doubt - Turks are puritans when it's about their language, so I believe their etimologysts - no need to quote, I think, because my Turkish-Turkish Etymology Dictionary just says: *T**ü *and gives a lot of derived words).

Vasmer's theory of "ob-ačiti, coming from _oči_" is strange because of one more reason. Seems that he forgot that the plural of "oko" was "očesa" and dual "očesi". (So it would be _ob-očes-it'_??? Or he thought singular - _ob-ok-at'_? But doesn't make much sense, tkekte is right.)

Now when we have two evident inflections - *bak- and *bek- - I hope we have approached closer to the very root.


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## Kriviq

dudasd said:


> Good news, Maroseika! So I finally came to verbs *bečiti se*,* bečiti* and* bekeljiti*. They are very common even nowadays. Meanings are:
> 
> bečiti se - to glare, to goggle, to stare
> bečiti (transitive, always with "oči") - to open eyes wide (like in surprise or in unpolite staring)
> bekeljiti se - to make grimaces



The Bulgarian equivalent is *блещя се*. The verb *блещя* is an archaic form of *блестя* - shine, sparkle, glitter. Maybe, after all, this *бак* has undergone a transformation to *блясък*.


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## Oletta

Thanks Maroseika for starting up the thread!!! It's wonderful to read all of you, dziękuję!


In current Polish there's no such word as "baka" (sounding "baka"). We do have a word "baca", however, but it is pronounced [batsa] "c" as "z" in German "zucker" or Italian "zanna", and it stands for "a shepherd and at the same time mountaineer living in Polish mountains", the term is especially applied to the region of the Tatras. Obviously "baca" has to LOOK AT his herd,  so hmm there is something in it..... AND in the Polish mountaineers dialect, "bacyć" is lokk at, "baca musi bacyć na swoje łowiecki" (= a shepherd must take care of/look at his sheep) or " Baca musi *bacyć*, żeby z drogi nie zbocyć" and many more...

Heh, I have never though of it.... It's thanks to you!

PS. Dudasd you are marvellous!!!


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## tkekte

Czy jestes pewna ze te "łowiecki" nie sa owieczkami?  Dziwnie.


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## Tolovaj_Mataj

Tkekte, the link works fine.


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## Oletta

tkekte said:


> Czy jestes pewna ze te "łowiecki" nie sa owieczkami?  Dziwnie.


 W gwarze góralskiej "owieczki" to łowiecki"  hej!

pozdr
Ola


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## Maroseika

dudasd said:


> Why to research *ba- root only? Maybe it suffered an inflection?
> 
> So I finally came to verbs *bečiti se*,* bečiti* and* bekeljiti*. They are very common even nowadays. Meanings are:
> 
> bečiti se - to glare, to goggle, to stare
> bečiti (transitive, always with "oči") - to open eyes wide (like in surprise or in unpolite staring)



I'm afraid we cannot estimate this inflection correctly without checking if such inflexion was possible, and if yes, in what period such a proces could take place.
Is it possible to find better etymology exactly for this group of words?
 



> Unfortunately, etimology is poorly explained. The only explanation I found is that it's probably of "onomatopoeic origin" - like when you are making grimaces and saying "beeee" or "baaaa".


Does it refer to the a/m 2 words, too?




> Vasmer's theory of "ob-ačiti, coming from _oči_" is strange because of one more reason. Seems that he forgot that the plural of "oko" was "očesa" and dual "očesi". (So it would be _ob-očes-it'_??? Or he thought singular - _ob-ok-at'_?


I don't think he could overlook this, because when explaining око he mentiones all these forms.
However why do you think the verb was to be formed from the plural or dual? In other case the verbs use to be formed from the root of the noun: глазеть, наушничать, etc.


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## dudasd

Maroseika said:


> I'm afraid we cannot estimate this inflection correctly without checking if such inflexion was possible, and if yes, in what period such a proces could take place.


 
Of course the flection was possible. Actually, it was the list of existing vowel inflections that gave me idea to check with *bek-. Compare grepsti/grebati - grabiti. (More precisely, I consulted the list from "Staroslovenski jezik", Petar Đorđić - we used that book when we learned Medieval Slavic at university, and is being used still because it's really excellent.) And about the period of inflections - it can't be defined precisely, for there are no written documents from those times. The main part happened during the Praslavic period and the later, medieval period, knows for a small number of inflection types only. But one of those later is, without any doubt, inflection of _jat_, that gave e, ije, je, ę, ja, a. Roughly, we could put that later period between 9/11th and 18th century, varying from language to language.



Maroseika said:


> Is it possible to find better etymology exactly for this group of words?


 
Unfortunately, in South Slavic dictionaries probably not. I am not satisfied with that etymology as well, as I've said, but the verb exists here, that's already something to begin with.




Maroseika said:


> Does it refer to the a/m 2 words, too?


 
I am not sure I understand the question.  If you mean the etymology - this one I quoted (and the only one I could find) can refer only to "e" variant, because it seems that "a" variant of the verb is not known amongst South Slavs. At least, it doesn't exist in any dictionary of Serbo-Croatian, and also I can't find it in my sources about Macedonian/Bulgarian (though Slovenian is terra incognita for me, maybe it exists there).





Maroseika said:


> I don't think he could overlook this, because when explaining око he mentiones all these forms.





Maroseika said:


> However why do you think the verb was to be formed from the plural or dual? In other case the verbs use to be formed from the root of the noun: глазеть, наушничать, etc.


 
Other etymologists don't mention that verb when giving different Slavic verbs derived from "oko". Ie / Praslavic / Panslavic/ Baltoslavic root is *okos-, that gave plural "očesa", thus the verb couldn't have derived from plural or dual (and Vasmer gives plural - actually, a remnant of dual - "oči", which is of a very late origin - that's where he's inconsistent). It could have been derived only from singular - oko - with palatalisation (like in _uočiti _- to spot), but - as tkekte said, where suffix "ob-" dissapeared? I can't find a single example of a similar case. But if I find it, I will post it here. Anyway, during the long years I found more than one funny mistake in different etimologycal explanations, but etymologists are human too, so they are allowed to make errors. 

I am not sure that глазеть is a good example, for it could be a case of both noun and verb derived from the same root - Eu *ghlendh and Ps *glend (that also gave gledati, gljadet', ględać etc.). And наушничать - it kept it's prefix, didn't lose it, and also that's an excellent example of the classical derivation from singular: na-uh-nik-at'), not from ушeca.

I find interesting the assumption of kriviq - if we consider the root *bleu that gave *блестя *and* блещя се*, as well as a really large number of other verbs and nouns in Panslavic world - from meanings "shine/to shine", "glitter/to glitter", "lightning", to "blue" and "blond" (plav - with both meanings), because its original meaning was the shine of sky (that's how it gave two different colours - blue and golden). But of course, I can't take it for granted.


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## Oletta

Hello again, after a long time. I have returned to the thread as I am curious what is your opinion of the connection of the Serbian "bak" meaning "bik" (bull) and the Italian (Latin) vacca (cow). The name might have been a bit altered when arrived through the sea into the Balkan territory. What are your ideas?


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## BezierCurve

> Thus my question: is there any word in any Slavic language as *baka/baca = eye*, deriving from well known Slavic verb *baczyć*?


 
Not sure if you're still interested in more Polish words, but there is also "baczny" (adj., alert) and a lot of verbs like "zobaczyc", "obaczyc" and probably also "wybaczyc". And so there are also nouns derived from those (baczenie, wybaczenie etc.).

PS. Sorry about the spelling, there are no Polish letters on the machine I'm using now.


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## Oletta

Thanks BezieCurve, I have already arrived at it...and in this thread and the one on the Bakowicz surname we have already mentioned about things you have just said. ( PS. Now I have already equipped myself with new etymological dictionaries ... and the thread is a bit old, but I didn't want to make a new one)

Now I wonder what Serbs can tell me about the idea that came to my mind about the connection of the old Serbian "bak" - meaning "bull" and the Latin/Italian "vacca" (cow).


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## Kanes

Don't have it in Bulgarian, its not turkik as well as in most of them its similar to gioz.


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## Oletta

Kanes said:


> its similar to gioz.



Thank you, but what is gioz?

Ola


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## Encolpius

Maroseika said:


> ...However I failed to find the word бака - eye in any Slavic language in any appropriate sense, except Polish *baca - starszy pasterz owiec, któremu podlegają juhasi dozorujący stada owiec w polskich Karpatach.*
> We may interprete this "baca" as "senior eye among the herders", but I'm not sure that's correct...



There is a *Slovak *verb *páčiť *(p-) which means "look".


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## vianie

Encolpius said:


> There is a *Slovak *verb *páčiť *(p-) which means "look".



Slovak: etymológia "páčiť sa"


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## TriglavNationalPark

In Slovenian, *pačiti* *(se)* means "to make faces, to sneer, to portray something inaccurately, to debase."


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## Azori

Encolpius said:


> There is a *Slovak *verb *páčiť *(p-) which means "look".


Sorry Encolpius, where do you have this information from? I only know it with the meaning of "to pry", "to lever".


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## Encolpius

lior neith said:


> Sorry Encolpius, where do you have this information from? I only know it with the meaning of "to pry", "to lever".



Synonymický slovník slovenčiny (1998)
pozerať (sa):*  poet.: *zrieť, páčiť,


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## intwist

I do not believe in the connection between *bača* and **obačiti*. The former has apparently been brought to the Carpathians during the shepherd culture migration. I agree with OldAvatar that it is probably a Turkic word.


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## Darina

tkekte said:


> Maroseika: I meant examples of a word like "бачить" in Russian or Bulgarian. You said they exist.


I am looking forward to see the example in Bulgarian. To me, there is nothing even close to "bak" meaning "see" or "eye". I was thinking of "bachkam", which means "to work hard" but...


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