# Pronunciation: 英文



## piano0011

Hey guys!

I am a bit confused with how to pronounce the letter "y" because there seems to be several variations. For example: when saying yi1 as in number 1, the "y" sound is silent but when saying yu2 as in fish, I can hear the "y" sound. Are you meant to hear the "y" sound for yingwen or it doesn't really matter? I guess, am I making a big fuss over a small thing? thanks!


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## fyl

For learners, you can think it is always silent, and the letter 'y' is just to make it look like a syllable.
There is indeed some subtleties but I doubt if that's what you have noticed. How do you actually pronounce 鱼yu2? It should be like this (denoted by /y/ in IPA) and not /iu/. If you hear /y/ or /iy/ or /jy/ or /ɥy/ (basically it is a /y/), then you are fine and you can ignore the difference. If you are considering "yu" as /iu/ or something exists in English, it will be very wrong.


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## piano0011

actually, that is a good question! In one of the lessons, the yu2 sound should first be pronounced as "eeeeeeeee" and then roll to "ooooooooo" and then I should say "yu" but doesn't this sound more or less like the english word "you"?


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## SuperXW

I'm not a professional, but as far as I know, y and i mark the position of your tongue.
y and i are for the same tongue position, just y is for marking the starting position of a sound (the term is "initial" 声母), and i is at for the ending position ("final" 韵母). 
And the sound yi is special because both y and i marks a same position, therefore they become one. yi is called 整体认读音节 (I don't know how to translate this term), meaning it is not supposed to combine two sounds or mouth movements, but should be read as a whole one. That's why you think "y is silent".

For yu, it is another 整体认读音节. Still, you should make one single sound, no matter how slow you pronounce it. 
Feel the tongue position of y, you'll find it is concordant with the whole sound of yu. You should not hear or feel any separate sound or tongue movement in yu.
u marks the position of your lips. For this position, you simply pout.
In non-整体认读音节, when you do a regular u, you don't deliberately exert strength on your tongue.
But in yu, since y marks a specific tongue position, you need to do it.
So your lips pout, your tongue do y, that's yu.

For ying, again you see y and i together. I'd say you'll hear them as one sound again (like yi). In ying, the tongue position changes once.


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## piano0011

So if it is a silent y, then I would need to pronounce something liked this?

(y)i1 = one
(y)u2 = fish
(y)ingwen2= english?

What about for the word bank? yin2 hang2? does that also have a silent y because it has i after it?


Thanks for the previous explanation. I do understand it better this time....


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## fyl

piano0011 said:


> In one of the lessons, the yu2 sound should first be pronounced as "eeeeeeeee" and then roll to "ooooooooo" and then I should say "yu" but doesn't this sound more or less like the english word "you"?


It does not sound like "you" in English at all.
Let me guess what the lesson means. They are actually teaching how to pronounce the close front rounded vowel (/y/ in IPA). For this sound, the tongue position is exactly the same as that of /i/ (bee), so they make you first do an "eeeeeeeeeeeee" sound. The only difference from /i/ is that you need to round your lips, which is what you do when you say /u/ (book). so they make you say "ooooooooooooo". At last, you should combine the two features (tongue position of /i/ and round lips of /u/) instead of spelling them, and you get a /y/, and you pronounce 鱼 correctly.

This sound is the German ü. So in Pinyin, this is denoted by this very symbol ü. (You know the vowels in Pinyin are a, o, e, i, u, ü, right?)
In Pinyin, when an 'ü' comes after j, q, x, y, it should be written as 'u'. This rule simplifies writing and typing (j, q, x, y cannot spell with a real 'u' in Mandarin so there is no ambiguity).
The consonant 'y' in Pinyin is actually /i/ (to put it simple and ignore unnoticeable details). For syllables starting with 'i' or 'ü', one should add a 'y' in the front so that it looks like a normal syllable (consonant+vowel). Whenever you see 'y' followed by 'i' or 'u' (which is actually 'ü'), feel free to ignore it.

I did a bit search and I think yo yo Chinese has a chart for all syllables of Mandarin Chinese Free Video-based Pinyin Chart. You can listen by clicking any sound you are not sure.


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## piano0011

I can hear that it is a bit different from the you sound but isn't it close to it? If a person can't pronounce the u sound, can they still pronounce it as you?


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## fyl

It may cause difficulties in understanding. In fact I don't think 'ü' is a difficult sound (it's just a variant of /i/) compared to j, q, x, zh, ch, sh, r, ie, üe for English speakers.
But if you have to do a "you", try to make it shorter (like one vowel instead of two sounds spelled together) and make your lips move as little as possible. I think in that way it will be more like an 'ü'.


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## SuperXW

By the way, I don't think you should stick on the concept of "silent y". There isn't such a thing. y is an "initial" in Pinyin. An initial (b, p, m, f, d, t, n, l, y, w...) only describes the initial "gesture" of you mouth. You don't really make the sound until your vocal cord vibrates with a vowel (a, o, e, i, u, ü).

If you say "y is silent", all initials, or all consonants are supposed to be "silent".


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## fyl

"y is silent" means ying=ing, yin=in, yu=ü, yuan=üan, and so on. In other words, "y" is not even a consonant, it is just a "symbol" to make the syllable look good.
One may argue that "y" does represent some sound in those syllables (i.e. approximants /j/ or /ɥ/). But that is up to realization and does not make a easily noticeable difference.


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## SuperXW

fyl said:


> "y is silent" means ying=ing, yin=in, yu=ü, yuan=üan, and so on. In other words, "y" is not even a consonant, it is just a "symbol" to make the syllable look good.
> One may argue that "y" does represent some sound in those syllables (i.e. approximants /j/ or /ɥ/). But that is up to realization and does not make a easily noticeable difference.


So you support calling it silent?


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## piano0011

This is strange because I have listened to the pronunciation of the word diàn yǐnɡ yuàn (movie theatre) and the word yuan4 is meant to sound like the english sound "ywon". Is this meant to be the same sound as yòu ér yuán (hospital?) but of course with a different tone? I am not sure if you guys understand my question here...


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## Skatinginbc

yeast vs. east
year vs. ear
Do they sound alike? Yes.  Are they pronounced the same? No.
To me, ying and ing are not phonetically the same. The initial /j/ might be "silent" (inaudible) to some people, but it is surely not absent for me.

Compare:
English "east" vs. Mandarin "依斯特" ==> I think Mandarin 依 involves greater initial constriction of the articulators. Or at least that is how I pronounce it.  This tighter initial constriction parallels that of a glottal stop /ʔ/, which is commonly reconstructed in Middle Chinese in place of a null initial (e.g., 依 MC *ʔɨi).  From this point of view, this "silent" <y-> (or /j-/) has its phonological meaning and is therefore not there merely "to make the syllable look good" (see #10).


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## fyl

SuperXW said:


> So you support calling it silent?


For beginners who have trouble with basic sounds like ü, I think it is way too much for them to distinguish "year vs ear" things. In fact, I believe it is an arguable issue even among native speakers whether the /j/ sound exists. Treating "y" as silent sounds fine to me.


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