# το τελικό ν



## K8tieP

Hello everyone,

I'm new here, and I'm new to Greek and I encountered something I can't ignore because I can't understand it.

I'm learning about nouns and articles and I found out that, to make the dative case, I need either to combine a preposition and a noun with the definite article in the accusative case, or to use the genitive. It's clear so far.

So... I was working on masculine nouns, among others on ο φιλοσ and here was when I got confused about the preposition+accusative structure. I learn from a couple of books, e.g. a handbook for beginners and a mini-dictionary with a grammar section. And the thing is that:

the handbook states that the dative of ο φιλοσ is *στον φιλο*
the mini-dictionary's grammar section says that the accusative of ο φιλοσ is *το φιλο*.
Now, I tend to believe dictionaries over handbooks, so in my book, the dative of ο φιλοσ is *στο φιλο*, not *στον φιλο*. 

My question is: Which form is the correct one?

*I know that other prepositions can form the dative, but I'm interested in this particular one (σε).

I would really appreciate if someone could clear that up for me, because, honestly, it's driving me crazy 

K8tieP.


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## διαφορετικός

K8tieP said:


> *στο φιλο*, not *στον φιλο*


Both forms, το and τον, were acceptable until recently. The latest grammar says that you should always write τον (for the masculine accusative singular article).

My sources:
τον - Wiktionary (old rules)
τον - Βικιλεξικό (new rules)


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## K8tieP

Thank you διαφορετικός. What I've just realized after comparing your sources and mine is that my handbook doesn't mention φ (or ξ, τσ and τζ for that matter  )
Still, I have one more thing to clear up. 



διαφορετικός said:


> Both forms, το and τον, were acceptable until recently. The latest grammar says that you should always write τον (for the masculine accusative singular article).
> 
> My sources:
> τον - Wiktionary (old rules)
> τον - Βικιλεξικό (new rules)



As I understand, you should always write τον in front of φ, not in front of any masculine noun? Is e.g. the form στο γιατρο correct?


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## διαφορετικός

K8tieP said:


> As I understand, you should always write τον in front of φ, not in front of any masculine noun?


No, according to the new rules, you should always write τον, if you want to write the definite accusative masculine singular article.
(According to the old rules, you should write τον "when the following letter is a vowel or a plosive consonant (κ, ξ, π, τ, ψ, γκ, ντ, μπ)" and το in the other cases.)


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## διαφορετικός

For the sake of completeness, I would like to add the general official rules for the final ν (το τελικό ν) (translated and slightly simplified from Νεοελληνική Γλώσσα (Α Γυμνασίου): Ηλεκτρονικό Βιβλίο ):

The final ν of the *article τη(ν) / στη(ν)* and of the *pronoun αυτή(ν), τη(ν)* as well as of the adverbs *δε(ν)* and *μη(ν)* is retained in written language only when the next word begins with a *vowel* or with *κ, π, τ, γκ, μπ, ντ, τσ, τζ, ξ, ψ*.

The final ν of the *articles τον/στον, έναν*, as well as of the *pronouns αυτόν, τον* is always retained in written language, *but in spoken language* it is pronounced usually only when it is followed by a vowel or by κ, π, τ, γκ, μπ, ντ, τσ, τζ, ξ, ψ.


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## Perseas

διαφορετικός is 100% right. I 'd just like to add this:

Just because the rules have changed few years ago and many generations of Greeks have learned and are familiar with the older rules, you may see -also in texts written after the change of the grammar rules- "στο φίλο", "το Γιώργο", "στο νάρθηκα", "το δάσκαλο" etc.

Also, in oral speech we usually don't pronounce the final *ν* of the article *τον* or *στον *before the accusative singular of masculine nouns that begin with one of these consonants: β, γ, δ, θ, λ, μ, ν, ρ, φ, χ, σ. So we usually say "το φίλο" or "στο δάσκαλο" rather than "τον φίλο" or "στον δάσκαλο".


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## K8tieP

διαφορετικός and Perseas, I find your explanation very helpful, thank you so much


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## Helleno File

διαφορετικός said:


> For the sake of completeness, I would like to add the general official rules for the final ν (το τελικό ν) (translated and slightly simplified from Νεοελληνική Γλώσσα (Α Γυμνασίου): Ηλεκτρονικό Βιβλίο ):
> 
> The final ν of the *article τη(ν) / στη(ν)* and of the *pronoun αυτή(ν), τη(ν)* as well as of the adverbs *δε(ν)* and *μη(ν)* is retained in written language only when the next word begins with a *vowel* or with *κ, π, τ, γκ, μπ, ντ, τσ, τζ, ξ, ψ*.
> 
> The final ν of the *articles τον/στον, έναν*, as well as of the *pronouns αυτόν, τον* is always retained in written language, *but in spoken language* it is pronounced usually only when it is followed by a vowel or by κ, π, τ, γκ, μπ, ντ, τσ, τζ, ξ, ψ.



I've just been reviewing this thread and the new school grammar so I can summarize the rules for myself.  I've just realised that the rule states the position for feminine articles and pronouns plus negative adverbs in the written language but not for the spoken language.  I think it might be the same - am I right?? It's clear that for masculine articles and pronouns written and spoken Greek are different.


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## Perseas

Helleno File said:


> I think it might be the same - am I right??


Yes. 



Helleno File said:


> It's clear that for masculine articles and pronouns written and spoken Greek are different.


Usually/Συνήθως.


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## eno2

I can't follow a discussion about the subject in Greek like this yet, but for my basic Greek I'll follow the new rule. Τον /Στον
(As it's controversial amongst Greek speakers, they can't shoot me for it).


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## Helleno File

Thanks Perseas & eno2 - my need for completeness!


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## ioanell

K8tieP said:


> I would really appreciate if someone could clear that up for me, because, honestly, it's driving me crazy



Of course, you don’t deserve to be driven crazy for something like that, but if you pay attention to the grammar rules which *διαφορετικός* cited and to what *Perseas* described as happening in oral speech, you will have a satisfactory answer to your queries concerning the final -ν.



K8tieP said:


> the handbook states that the dative of ο φιλοσ is *στον φιλο*



I don’t know how reliable your handbook may be, but please be informed that in Modern Greek there isn’t dative case, as there was in Ancient Greek. In the place of the ancient dative, in order to render the indirect object of the verb, that is the person, animal or thing to whom/which something is said/given or done, you need, as you correctly say, either to combine the Modern Greek preposition *σε* and a noun with the definite article in the accusative case (e.g. έδωσα [σε τον>] στον φίλο μου ένα δώρο=I gave my friend a gift) or to use the genitive (e.g. έδωσα του φίλου μου ένα δώρο). Note: ο φίλος with final *-ς*.



διαφορετικός said:


> according to the new rules, you should always write τον, if you want to write the definite accusative masculine singular article.



The reason behind this change was that the use, at least in writing,  of the article form “το” instead of “τον” for the accusative of the masculine gender, was rather pejorative and a bit absurd, mainly for persons, as it was making the masculine look like the neuter gender (e.g. θαυμάζω πάρα πολύ *το* Σολωμό=I admire Solomos [the national poet of Greece] very much). This delivery could easily imply an absurd nominative case “το Σολωμό” instead of the correct "ο Σολωμός".


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## Αγγελος

Let us further note that the final ν in the article τον is usually not pronounced before continuants (=consonants which can be drawn out, namely β/γ/δ/φ/χ/θ/λ/μ/ν/ρ/σ/ζ), which is why it used to be omitted in writing, too, *but* the final ν in the genitive plural article των and in the pronoun τον (=him) is always pronounced.


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## Αγγελος

ioanell said:


> I don’t know how reliable your handbook may be, but please be informed that in Modern Greek there isn’t dative case, as there was in Ancient Greek. In the place of the ancient dative, [etc]


I suppose the handbook is written in Polish, so that it explains how to express the _Polish_ dative in Greek. It probably also explains that the instrumental case is expressed with με+accusative!


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## διαφορετικός

Should I write "γι' αυτόν τον λόγο"? I often read "γι' αυτό το λόγο", but it seems to me that this is wrong according to the above rules.


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## διαφορετικός

για αυτόν τον λόγο - Ελληνοαγγλικό Λεξικό WordReference.com
Yes, it is correct.


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## Αγγελος

διαφορετικός said:


> Should I write "γι' αυτόν τον λόγο"? I often read "γι' αυτό το λόγο", but it seems to me that this is wrong according to the above rules.


That is a different question.
As already explained, according to the currently valid official grammar, you must write τον λόγο, but normally pronounce το λόγο.
With pronouns such as αυτός and εκείνος, the accusative m_ay_ have a final ν, both in speech and in writing.  It _must _have a final ν if it could be confused with the neuter: we say (and write).τον είδα κι αυτόν (=I saw him, too), or αυτόν δεν τον είδανε; (what about him, didn’t they see him?). Both γι’αυτό τον λόγο and γι’ αυτόν τον λόγο are correct.
The same things holds true of the feminine αυτή(ν): you may say and write both σε αυτή την περίπτωση and σε αυτήν την περίπτωση, even though there is no risk of confusion.
And certainly no one will criticize you for not following the official rules; most Greeks don’t, either!


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## διαφορετικός

Αγγελος said:


> Both γι’αυτό τον λόγο and γι’ αυτόν τον λόγο are correct.


Thank you, Αγγελος. But both "γι’ αυτό το λόγο" and "γι’ αυτόν το λόγο" are wrong, officially, do you agree?


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## Αγγελος

Yes.


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