# мещанин



## dvdvbrn

Как сказать на английском мещанин? Словарь выдаёт petty bourgeois 
или philistine, но может есть другое слово/выражение?

Спасибо


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## eni8ma

Petty bourgeois is from the French "petit bourgeois", and refers to the middle classes, especially those who are more conventional.  It is applied more to those who are in business as shopkeepers and merchants.

Here is the definition of bourgeois.
There is a thesaurus that will give you other words that are similar.

The exact word you might use would depend on the context. "middle classes" is a good general term.


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## Valvs

dvdvbrn said:


> Как сказать на английском мещанин? Словарь выдаёт petty bourgeois
> или philistine, но может есть другое слово/выражение?
> 
> Спасибо



Всё зависит от того, в каком смысле вы хотите это слово использовать. Слова не переводятся. Переводится смысл.


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## morzh

Valvs said:


> Всё зависит от того, в каком смысле вы хотите это слово использовать. Слова не переводятся. Переводится смысл.




Exactly.

This is why the "context has to be provided with every request" rule has to be observed. For both non-Russian and Russian-speaking folks.

Контекст - в студию!


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## dvdvbrn

Мещанин в более презрительном смысле слова - простой обыватель, живущий ради примитивных целей или интересов. Как в этой цитате:
"Обрати внимание на первые ряды партера, - сказал Форестье, - одни добродушные, глупые лица мещан, которые вместе с женами и детьми приходят сюда поглазеть."


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## Garbuz

Among American writers, I think Sinclair Lewis was the one who dealt with a phenomenon similar to what we understand by мещанство. His novels 'Main Street', 'Babbit' are about conservative and narrow-minded people from the middle class.


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## morzh

dvdvbrn said:


> Мещанин в более презрительном смысле слова - простой обыватель, живущий ради примитивных целей или интересов. Как в этой цитате:
> "Обрати внимание на первые ряды партера, - сказал Форестье, - одни добродушные, глупые лица мещан, которые вместе с женами и детьми приходят сюда поглазеть."




So you need the figurative meaning.

Well, see, the problem is, that what after the 1917 was considered a deficiency of character, like traditionalism, adherence to old values, minding one's own business and having one's own family in one's interests first, was not considered so bad before, and is not considered THAT bad now outside Russia. 

So, some people actually see the qualities of "обыватель/мещанин" as positive, and the father West you go - the more so it is. 
Plus, the older the person is, the more he or she is inclined to think so also.

This is why translating "мещанин/обыватель" is a bit of a challenge.

"Philistine" is only partially reflects the quality of "мещанство", stressing the cultural aspect of it, that is resistance to truly fine arts and favoring "kitsch". It does not stress shunning active social / political position.
Which is actually, to me, the major part of the Russian "мещанин".

I, actually, do not share the negative connotation of "обыватель/мещанин", and to me it is a typical middle class, not too progressive, traditional, not really necessarily an opera or Smithsonian goer. But it is a foundation of just about any prosperous country. Often of Lutheran religion.

This is why it is kind of hard to translate for me.

I think the translation may be descriptive: a person who shuns the social issues, a conservative-minded person, who is not necessarily overly educated.


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## dvdvbrn

В моем понимании, слова мещанство и мещанин употребляются в негативном смысле - когда хотят сказать об узкости, примитивности и ограниченности взглядов. А когда хотят сказать о надежности, стабильности и т.п. - употребляют выражение "средний класс" или буржуа. Так вот я думал, что в английском языке есть эквивалент слова мещанин, но видимо я ошибался. Наверное conservative или narrow-minded будет лучше всего, но все-таки это не совсем то.

Хотя и в русском языке слово мещанин теперь часто не употреблятся. Мне кажется только на уроках русской литературы, когда надо написать сочинение на тему "Образ русского мещанства в романе ..."


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## morzh

dvdvbrn said:


> В моем понимании, слова мещанство и мещанин употребляются в негативном смысле - когда хотят сказать об узкости, примитивности и ограниченности взглядов. А когда хотят сказать о надежности, стабильности и т.п. - употребляют выражение "средний класс" или буржуа. Так вот я думал, что в английском языке есть эквивалент слова мещанин, но видимо я ошибался. Наверное conservative или narrow-minded будет лучше всего, но все-таки это не совсем то.
> 
> Хотя и в русском языке слово мещанин теперь часто не употреблятся. Мне кажется только на уроках русской литературы, когда надо написать сочинение на тему "Образ русского мещанства в романе ..."



"Буржуа", как минимум, совсем недавно, имело так же негативный смысл. По понятным причинам. Но, дело в том, что даже с переустройством общества, слова, имеющие негативный смысл, не теряют его, по-крайней мере сразу, так же по понятным причинам. Живо поколение(-я), которое были научены определенным образом, и успело воспитать себе смену.

Поэтому и образуются новые слова взамен тех, неприязнь к которым трудно побороть, несмотря на уже отсуствующие причины.

Так получается "средний класс".

Полного эквивалента в английском не найти, хотя бы уже в силу никогда не имевшейся неприязни к "мещанам" в прямом смысле - к зажиточным жителям города и деревни. (в этом смысле - в другом смысле, слово, скажем, "villain" тоже происходит от слова "деревенский житель").

Philistines - у него отсутствуют социальные корни этой неприязни. Т.е., да, ограниченый, узколобый, и т.д., но не потому, что происходит "из мещан".

Вообще, я бы задал вопрос на английском форуме - может, все же, есть какой-нибудь всеобъемлющий термин для таких людей.

По отдельности, их называют через запятую: narrow-minded, church-going, conservative judgmental do-gooders


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## eni8ma

What, exactly, do you want this word for?

In English, _Philistine_ is not really a very good equivalent, because it is more to do with rough, anti-social, boorish behaviour.

_burgher_ is simply a town-dweller, perhaps more a smaller country town (I am not referring to whatever it means in German, but to what an English speaker would think)

_middle-class_ has a whole range of connotations, depending on how the term is used.

_conservative_, likewise, can be a put-down or a simple statement of values.

_narrow-minded_ is obviously a put-down.

I cannot think of a single word or term that would do the job.

So perhaps what you are seeking is "*conservative, narrow-minded, middle classes*" or "conservative, narrow-minded, middle class people".


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## morzh

This is what we've been saying here: there seems to be no one single word for it in English.
Because this is what it is: middle-class, conservative, narrow-minded. Also with a not so good taste in literature/ other arts. Also possibly a hypocrite.


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## eni8ma

eni8ma said:


> Petty bourgeois is from the French "petit bourgeois", and refers to the middle classes, especially those who are more conventional.  It is applied more to those who are in business as shopkeepers and merchants.
> 
> Here is the definition of bourgeois.
> There is a thesaurus that will give you other words that are similar.
> 
> The exact word you might use would depend on the context. "middle classes" is a good general term.


I did already say as much at the start.


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## morzh

eni8ma said:


> I did already say as much at the start.



No. What you've said at the start is a good translation of the original meaning of "мещанин", which you may still find in stories by classics of 19-th-beg. 20-th century. There it did mean "middle class" and notheing more - no judging the attitudes, education, tastes and standing on social issues.

Granted, Dvdvbrn did not provide the context, (and, BTW, it is recommended by the local rules here that you do not provide any answers where it may be context-dependent, and the context is not provided by the asking party; then you should ask for it and then wait until it is given.) and so you started explaining the "petit bourgeois".

But, as you can see, later (and it was a popular guess here; and this is why Valvs and I asked for the context) Dvdvbrn indeed explaned he wanted the figurative meaning of the word translated.
And it does not translate as "middle class", unless you accuse the whole of middle class being that boorish maleducated very conservative hypocritical mass of people with questionable tastes in arts.

Your post from today 02:15 PM made sense, and I just acknowledged it in my post that follow it.


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## Ben Jamin

dvdvbrn said:


> Мещанин в более презрительном смысле слова - простой обыватель, живущий ради примитивных целей или интересов. Как в этой цитате:
> "Обрати внимание на первые ряды партера, - сказал Форестье, - одни добродушные, глупые лица мещан, которые вместе с женами и детьми приходят сюда поглазеть."


  The Russian Wikipedia reads: "Мещанство берёт начало от посадских (жителей городов и посадов) Московского государства, в основном — ремесленников, мелких домовладельцев и торговцев."
Is this meaning forgotten by ordinary people (not historians)?


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## Sobakus

Ben Jamin said:


> The Russian Wikipedia reads: "Мещанство берёт начало от посадских (жителей городов и посадов) Московского государства, в основном — ремесленников, мелких домовладельцев и торговцев."
> Is this meaning forgotten by ordinary people (not historians)?



No, that's the meaning discussed in this thread (and is the only one), but it often means that with a negative connotation. It can be used without the negative connotation, however. Likewise with обыватель, for example.


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## Maroseika

I don't think мещанин can be applied nowadays to somebody alive without the negative connotation. 
Unlike обыватель: Я - простой обыватель vs Он - жалкий обыватель.


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## Ben Jamin

Sobakus said:


> No, that's the meaning discussed in this thread (and is the only one), but it often means that with a negative connotation. It can be used without the negative connotation, however. Likewise with обыватель, for example.


I can not see that THIS meaning has been discussed. The discussion was mostly about the derived meaning of the word, mostly as a negative label, haunting from the Marxist past.


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## morzh

Sobakus said:


> No, that's the meaning discussed in this thread (and is the only one), but it often means that with a negative connotation. It can be used without the negative connotation, however. Likewise with обыватель, for example.





dvdvbrn said:


> Мещанин в более презрительном смысле слова -  простой обыватель, живущий ради примитивных целей или интересов. Как в  этой цитате:
> "Обрати внимание на первые ряды партера, - сказал Форестье, - одни  добродушные, глупые лица мещан, которые вместе с женами и детьми  приходят сюда поглазеть."




I think it is the other meaning.


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## Garbuz

Ben Jamin said:


> I can not see that THIS meaning has been discussed. The discussion was mostly about the derived meaning of the word, mostly as a negative label, haunting from the Marxist past.


 
The original meaning of this word (belonging to the middle class, etc.) is definitely a thing of the past (I agree with Maroseika). In present-day Russian the words 'мещанство, мещане, мещанский" have negative connotation. I can't even imagine a context (unless it describes life in Russia before 1917) where the word "мещанин" would be used. Marxism or Leninism, you can't step into the same river twice.

By the way thare is a play by M.Gorky called "Мещане". Here's what wikipedia gives: The Philistines/The Smug Citizens/The Petty Bourgeois (Мещане), 1901


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## Sobakus

Ben Jamin said:


> I can not see that THIS meaning has been discussed. The discussion was mostly about the derived meaning of the word, mostly as a negative label, haunting from the Marxist past.





morzh said:


> I think it is the other meaning.


But I can't see how "посадские(жители городов и посадов) Московского государства" is different from "the middle class". They're the same to me.


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## Ben Jamin

Sobakus said:


> But I can't see how "посадские(жители городов и посадов) Московского государства" is different from "the middle class". They're the same to me.



The epoch is different. Middle class is a XXth century term, while Мещанство was a social stand in the feudal society, placed between the nobles and the peasants, having their duties and privileges different from the other two stands.


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## dvdvbrn

Following advice of morzh I asked to give a one word definition of phrase "narrow-minded, church-going, conservative, judgmental do-gooder" at English forum. 

Anyone interested can check it here: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?p=10933860#post10933860

It was decided that "bible thumper" or fundamentalist will be the best. Which, in my opinion, is not equivalent to the Russian мещанин. Both "bible thumper" and fundamentalist are religious zealots, while мещанин is not at all. "Bible thumper" is more like a старообрядец. I actually liked translation "republican" 

I understand that word мещанин has negative sense in Russian mostly because of Soviet Union situation, but still may be a word in English. It could be used to describe attitude of one social group toward another. 
For example, of somebody from New York City (stereotypically progressive) toward somebody from Two Creeks, Wi (stereotypically not-progressive). 

The word колхозник can be pretty exactly translated as redneck in the US, even though колхозы have never existed in the USA. Both words derived in different ways describe the same phenomenon. Unfortunately, so far it seems like мещанин does not have analogue in English. 

А жаль.


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## morzh

dvdvbrn said:


> Unfortunately, so far it seems like мещанин does not have analogue in English.
> 
> А жаль.



I only advised that because myself I am not an English-speaking native, so my judgement lacks proper authority. 

Thing is, there are cultural phenomena in languages, and those are very hard to translate.
That is, a translation is possible, but it will always be descriptive i/o word-into-word. Simply because one language may lack the whole concept (languages only describe existing concepts) of something that exists in another one.

I forgot, which language it is, but the best example is: there is a language that does not have the word "snow" in it. Simply because it never snows where the language is spoken.
So to describe it you need to say "white fluffy stuff that fall from the sky".


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## dvdvbrn

morzh said:


> I forgot, which language it is, but the best example is: there is a language that does not have the word "snow" in it. Simply because it never snows where the language is spoken.
> So to describe it you need to say "white fluffy stuff that fall from the sky".



I see what you are saying. 

I know that in the language of some people living in the foremost north regions of Russia there are hundreds of ways to say word snow. But I bet that they don't know how to say in one word banana, air-plane or мещанин.


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