# Соединённые Штаты = trousers



## ewie

Hello folks.  I've just read (in English*) Chekhov's comic short story _In an hotel_, written in the early 1880s.
The very disreputable staff-captain Kikin is telling a 'racey' anecdote about a Lieutenant Druzhkov playing billiards:


> Well, that same Druzhkov was one day making a drive with the yellow into the pocket and as he usually did, you know, flung up his leg. . . . All at once something went crrr-ack! At first they thought he had torn the cloth of the billiard table, but when they looked, my dear fellow, *his United States* had split at every seam! He had made such a high kick, the beast, that not a seam was left


Obviously *it* means _trousers_.

Question: how does _United States_ come to mean _trousers_?  Have you come across this weird euphemism in modern Russian?

(* ... answers _in English_ would be much appreciated)


Full English text here.


----------



## Awwal12

Maybe it's just a some sort of provincial speech embellishment, combined with phonetical association between "sht*a*ty" (states) and "shtan*y*" (trousers). Maybe it's even a sort of euphemism. I'm not sure at all, this figure of speech still looks unclear.


----------



## Ptak

ewie said:


> Question: how does _United States_ come to mean _trousers_?  Have you come across this weird euphemism in modern Russian?


I'm sure such an euphemism neither exists in modern Russian, nor did in Chekhov's times. It's just a 'joke' of the character and can be explained by the following:
1) *штаты* sounds similar to *штаны*
2) штаны is definitely something 'united', that is two 'united' trouser legs (две _штанины_ in Russian).
3) Druzhkov's trousers (or many trousers at that time) could be striped


----------



## Q-cumber

ewie said:


> Hello folks.  I've just read (in English*) Chekhov's comic short story _In an hotel_, written in the early 1880s.
> The very disreputable staff-captain Kikin is telling a 'racey' anecdote about a Lieutenant Druzhkov playing billiards:
> Obviously *it* means _trousers_.
> 
> Question: how does _United States_ come to mean _trousers_?  Have you come across this weird euphemism in modern Russian?
> 
> (* ... answers _in English_ would be much appreciated)
> 
> 
> Full English text here.



Here's the original Russian text:


> - Помнишь ты поручика Дружкова? Так вот этот самый Дружков делает однажды клопштосом желтого в угол и по обыкновению, знаешь, высоко ногу задрал... Вдруг что-то: тррресь! Думали сначала, что он на бильярде сукно порвал, а как поглядели, братец ты мой, у него Соединенные Штаты по всем швам! Так высоко задрал, бестия, ногу, что ни одного шва не осталось...
> _В номерах. А. П. Чехов_



I dare suggest it was just an author's occasionalism. I've never ever heard 'United States' used this way, but in this Chekhov's story. This expression has nothing to do with the actual country name. It's rather kind of wordplay.The word *соединённый* <'United'> also means  'joined, attached' in Russian. So something big and seam-joint 'had split at every seam'. That's how I see it.


----------



## ewie

Thanks for all the answers, folks ~ that's what I call a 'satisfying result'
From what you've said, I suppose the joke is actually pretty _obvious _to a Russian-speaker ~ I was so mystified by the English term that I thought (_after_ I'd posted my question) that maybe it was some old _English _euphemism which the translator had dug up ... and which I'd never heard of.


----------



## Maroseika

I'm sure this was not Checkov's occasionalism because the story published in the newspaper was to be comprehended by everybody. Most likely this was a popular expression in the epoch of the stripped trousers, like Ptak noticed, and here is it could look like:


----------



## Q-cumber

Maroseika said:


> I'm sure this was not Checkov's occasionalism because the story published in the newspaper was to be comprehended by everybody. Most likely this was a popular expression in the epoch of the stripped trousers, like Ptak noticed, and here is it could look like:



The meaning is clearly obvious from the context, so I don't see any problem here. Do you really think that Lieutenant Druzhkov could wear civil stripped trousers?


----------



## Maroseika

Sure he could if he was a retired officer. For example, another hero, Kikin is definately retired but others call him "captain".


----------



## Q-cumber

Maroseika said:


> Sure he could if he was a retired officer. For example, another hero, Kikin is definately retired but others call him "captain".



Retired -- in rank of "поручик"? It's very unlikely.

PS By the way, even retired Russian Army officers were mostly wearing uniform with special  shoulder straps or without any shoulder straps (so-called "отставка с правом ношения мундира").


----------



## Maroseika

One could easily retire in 1-2 years upon entering the army and therefore even in the lower rank:
"Офицеры ... военного и морского ведомств в общем правиле могут просить об увольнении от службы по собственному их усмотрению и желанию, в каком бы они чине или звании не состояли, как по болезни, так и по домашним обстоятельствам..." 
"...Офицеры и чиновники, уволенные от службы по распоряжению начальства, сохраняют право на получение пенсии, награждения же чином и правом ношения мундира удостоиваются лишь по особому ходатайству начальства." 
"Мундир, т. е. право ношения в отставке мундира, получают офицеры и гражд. чин., прослужившие не менее 10 лет или имеющие орден за военное отличие, или уволенные от службы за ранами".
(БиЕ) 
Don't think Kikin or Druskov could belong to such a honorable category (being young and onbioudly quite sunk).

However, I don't insist on this version, but just don't see any better.


----------



## Q-cumber

> В XIX веке овеянный дымом сражений военный мундир все более становился символом чести. Показательно, что офицер никогда не появлялся в обществе в гражданской одежде и, даже находясь в отставке, предпочитал ходить в форме. Лишение офицера права ношения мундира при выходе в отставку считалось суровым наказанием, такого человека просто переставали принимать во многих дворянских домах.


Interesting article 

Поручик  (1894 г. - i.e. about the time Chekhov was writing this story).

Sorry, but I can hardly imagine him playing pool with other officers wearing stripped trousers.


----------



## Maroseika

Q-cumber said:


> Interesting article
> 
> Поручик  (1894 г. - i.e. about the time Chekhov was writing this story).
> 
> Sorry, but I can hardly imagine him playing pool with other officers wearing stripped trousers.


1. This article refers more to the previous epoch.
2. As we see from the law, there was no way to earn the right to wear uniform in retire after less than 10 years of military service; we don't know anything about leutenant Druzhkov, but even captain Kikin was rather young and therefore could be retired in due way, without disgrace yet without the right for the uniform.
3. If Druzhkov did not serve on civil sevice and therefore had no civil rank or post, the only way to address him was to use his former military rank. And we don't know where they played.

Again, what more probable can you offer?


----------



## cyanista

*Mod note:*

You are welcome to offer further insights concerning the actual question. BUT: I am afraid the thread will have to be closed if the discussion about military ranks is continued. I am sorry, dear gentlemen, but this debate is merely tangential to the subject.

Thank you in advance.


----------



## Q-cumber

Maroseika said:


> Again, what more probable can you offer?



1. I'm pretty sure that Lieutenant Druzhkov was wearing military riding breeches <галифе>
2. I addition to what I said above, I can suggest a new version based on the common look of an US map.  The map consists of varicoloured states' "patches", joined together by  dotted-line "seams". There are lots of "seams" on the map. So, Captain Kikin used 'United States' here to accentuate how many seams were split. What do you think about this?


----------



## Maroseika

In this case it would rather look like "разошлись на Соединенные Штаты" (cf. порвать на британский флаг).


----------



## Ptak

I'm currently re-reading "Crime and Punishment" by Dostoyevsky (written in 1866), and have just reached the excerpt in the book where Razumikhin is talking about the suit he has bought for Raskolnikov. It's evident that those "United States" were not Chekhov's occasionalism or a joke of the character; so I and Q-cumber were wrong, and Maroseika was right 

Here's this excellent excerpt:

_- ... Головной убор, это, брат,  самая первейшая вещь в костюме, своего рода рекомендация. <...> Ну-с, Настенька, вот вам два головные убора: сей  пальмерстон (он достал  из  угла  исковерканную  круглую  шляпу  Раскольникова,  которую неизвестно  почему,  назвал  пальмерстоном)  или  сия   ювелирская   вещица? Оцени-ка, Родя, как думаешь, что заплатил? Настасьюшка?  -  обратился  он  к ней, видя, что тот молчит.
     - Двугривенный, небось, отдал, - отвечала Настасья.
     - Двугривенный, дура! - крикнул он, обидевшись, - <...> восемь гривен! Да и  то  потому,  что  поношенный.  Оно, правда, с уговором:  этот  износишь,  на  будущий  год  другой  даром  дают, ей-богу! *Ну-с, приступим теперь к Соединенным Американским Штатам, как это в гимназии у нас называли. Предупреждаю - штанами горжусь! -  и  он  расправил перед Раскольниковым серые, из легкой летней шерстяной материи панталоны*,  - ни дырочки, ни пятнышка, а между тем  весьма  сносные,  хотя  и  поношенные, таковая же и жилетка, одноцвет, как мода требует..._


----------



## Maroseika

Well, the only matter I was right in is that this expression was quite common and not an occasionalism of Chekhov. As for the appearance of this trousers, we still do not know what did they look like - stripped (like US flag), chequered (like US map) or somehow else. Dostoyevskiy describes it as 'gray', in one colour with the jacket, and that's all. 
So - still no exact answer for the topic starter...


----------



## bravo7

Фасмер: "Шутливое соединённые шта́ты "штаны" (Чехов) - искажение слова штаны́ под влиянием географического названия."


----------



## Ptak

bravo7 said:


> Фасмер: "Шутливое соединённые шта́ты "штаны" (*Чехов*)


Это "Чехов" говорит о том, что он знал не всё. 
Так что и к его толкованию происхождения выражения нет доверия. Кстати, я вообще не понимаю, что значит "под влиянием географического названия".


----------



## Maroseika

Так ведь Чехов, кажется, этого и не говорит, это Фасмер говорит. А с учетом Достоевского... 
Впрочем, учитывая, какими источниками располагал Фасмер, можно предположить, что в его время это была расхожая версия. Возможно, и правильная.


----------



## Ptak

maroseika said:


> Так ведь Чехов, кажется, этого и не говорит, это Фасмер говорит.


Я имела в виду, что это указание в скобках, "Чехов", поставленное Фасмером, говорит о том, что он, Фасмер, знал про это выражение не всё и в частности не знал о его упоминании в романе Достоевского, написанном еще аж в 1866 году.


----------



## Maroseika

Так ведь это не опровергает самой этимологии, а лишь сдвигает возможное появление выражения лет на 30 в прошлое.
Возможно, шутка была порождена газетной опечаткой.


----------



## ewie

(I'm sorry to be a nuisance but ... have I missed anything important in the last 5 posts?)


----------



## Q-cumber

ewie said:


> (I'm sorry to be a nuisance but ... have I missed anything important in the last 5 posts?)






> _...Yes, on my word! Well, now let us pass to the United States of America, as they called them at school. I assure you I am proud of these breeches,” and he exhibited to Raskolnikov a pair of light, summer trousers of grey woolen material. _
> (c) *Fyodor Dostoyevsky* 'Crime and Punishment' (first published in 1866)


----------



## punctuate

I think that Chekhov wished to write the word штаты, and the word соединённые just chimed in, being necessary for the rhythm, for elucidation what the word штаты means and why it's here, and for its fitness into the rest of the text. The word штат is referred, often as a joke, to social status, to circumstances of life (see the expression: по штату полагается, something is supposed to be with you per your status), the word штаны makes reference to the same idea (see, for example, жёлтые штаны (yellow trousers) from the movie _Kin-dza-dza!_, where they marked the higher social status of their wearer on the planet of Plück), so they beautifully rhyme together, the first being a substitution of the second in the text, with the same idea not only saved, but underlined by repetition. That the two sound similar helps the repetion, but is a secondary factor. Now, when you turn the whole into the name of a large country, it starts to imply a high status of the addressee, of course in a jocular manner (in fact, I guess, the status was considered rather low). The word штат in Russian does not mean the same thing as the word _state_ in English: the first is neither a name for the apparatus of compulsion, nor a reference to an internal condition of some machine.


----------

