# The German "r"



## българин

I can't distinguish which is the right pronunciation of the German "r." I keep hearing it pronounced so many ways...Should it be pronounced like the Spanish/Italian "r" or should it be like the nasal "r" in French or should you just elongate the vowel before the "r" (sort of like British English)??


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## Kajjo

Neither. The German "r" is unique!  Note that there are words with the letter "r" that do not exhibit the sound "r" at all, e.g. Bier, hier.

Listen here. Or listen to news slowly spoken for learners of German.

Kajjo


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## übermönch

The "French" way would be the closest to Standard German from the ones you called, though it's pronounced differently in different parts of Germany. Austrians, Swiss and Bavarians rather use the Italian r.

EDIT: nevermind, kajjo was faster and gave an excellent answer.


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## българин

Ok, thanks for the replies. The Italian r is muchhh easier for me to pronounce...so if I use that I won't sound weird a? But yes, I do realize that there are different words where the r is pronounced differently...


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## Jana337

You will sound terrrrrrrrrrrible (Germans using their "r" in Italian sound awful, too). 

Jana


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## българин

Ohh excellent website Kajjo! thanks a lot


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## българин

Jana337 said:


> You will sound terrrrrrrrrrrible (Germans using their "r" in Italian sound awful, too).
> 
> Jana


 
Ah, Jana, so quick to burst my bubble.   I was just rejoicing...


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## übermönch

Well, I don't really agree with Jana, many German singers choose to pronounce the Italian r, same is done in Opera and I wouldn't say it's that bad. You will perfectly be understood and the sound will certainly be recognized as an r. It's better than to pronounce the correct r wrongly. 

EDIT:In my opinion. Maybe it's that I live relatively in the south.


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## driFDer

българин said:


> I can't distinguish which is the right pronunciation of the German "r." I keep hearing it pronounced so many ways...Should it be pronounced like the Spanish/Italian "r"


 
I too hear this quite often. Especially in songs. Actually the link posted has an example of what I believe you and I are talking about.

http://www.ex.ac.uk/german/abinitio/pronounce/pronoch.html

Listen carefully how the example pronounces the "r" in "schrecklich." (Its near the bottom paired up with the word glücklich!)


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## Lykurg

Using the Italian r is normal for profi singers, but only when they are _singing_. 
That has no connection to the "right", non-dialectal pronunciation of spoken German.


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## Kajjo

Just a short agreement with Jana and Lykurg: The Italian "r" is only for singing or old-fashioned theater, not for conversation. I believe it is worth to learn the proper German "r", otherwise you will sound very foreign.

Kajjo


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## Sidjanga

übermönch said:


> Well, I don't really agree with Jana, many German singers choose to pronounce the Italian r, same is done in Opera and I wouldn't say it's that bad. You will perfectly be understood and the sound will certainly be recognized as an r. It's better than to pronounce the correct r wrongly.
> 
> EDIT:In my opinion. Maybe it's that I live relatively in the south.


Hi, it´s not only German singers who "choose to pronounce" the "Italian r" algthough singing in German. 
Well, I am actually not quite sure what exactly you are referring to with the "Italian r", but I reckon you are talking about the one pronounced with the tip of the tongue rather than in the throat.
The pronounciating with the tip of the tongue in German, which is not exactly the same like its Italian counterpart, is one of basically three ways of phonetical performance of the sign [r], that are all officially accepted (by linguists and in good grammar/language books), are nothing to do with dialect (it´s just about pronounciation) and the "Italian stile r" *does not sound horrible* at all (speaking German, I personally pronounce it in the throat) Many people -apart from those who are from the south of the German speaking region- who speak German as a foreign language pronounce it with the tip of the tongue, and I have never ever heard anybody say that it sounded horrible or very foreign to them, but on the contrary: rather charming. But that is maybe also a reagional question.

Best wishes


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## Kajjo

Das Zungen-R mag bayerisch-charmant klingen, aber noch lange nicht typisch Deutsch. Ich würde jedem Deutschschüler empfehlen, daß typische, deutsche "r" zu lernen.

Kajjo


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## driFDer

Lykurg said:


> Using the Italian r is normal for profi singers, but only when they are _singing_.
> That has no connection to the "right", non-dialectal pronunciation of spoken German.


 
Are you saying "schrecklich" was pronounced wrong?!  Why would such a website choose to use such a sound clip?


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## Hutschi

Hi, the sound of the "r" depends in the standard German language on the position and on the vowels or consonants near to it.

Additionally, it depends very much on the region. 

In only some regions it will be pronounced as "r" at the end of words or if consonants follow it.  Mostly, it is just a kind of "schwa", very similar to English.

Wunder -> Wunda (similar to wonder in English)

In some regions, it is not spoken in words like "Fahrt" (it rhymes to "Bad" there, because the "d" in "Bad" is spoken hard, and the "r" in Fahrt is not spoken at all. This happens mostly in the Nord west area of Germany.

In the "Oberlausitz" the r is spoken very strong and "rrroled" in almost all positions. 

Where I came from it was spoken from the throat, in other areas, you have it on the tongue.  (I can not speak this.)

When a vowel follows, the "r" is usually spoken.
When following an "e", it is spoken as a "schwa"-sound.

Best regards
Bernd

Unfortunately, I cannot use the IPA. Sorry.


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## AGATHA2

übermönch said:


> Austrians, Swiss and Bavarians rather use the Italian r.


 
Was du nicht sagst !! Seit wann ??


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## übermönch

AGATHA2 said:


> Was du nicht sagst !! Seit wann ??


Scho imma...?  jedefalls, jeda bayer, dea mi begegnet is'! isses in etwa nischt (mehr) so?


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## българин

Kajjo said:


> Just a short agreement with Jana and Lykurg: The Italian "r" is only for singing or old-fashioned theater, not for conversation. I believe it is worth to learn the proper German "r", otherwise you will sound very foreign.
> 
> Kajjo


 

lol. I still sound foreign even if I do say it correctly. anyway, thanks for the advice.


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## AGATHA2

übermönch said:


> Scho imma...? jedefalls, jeda bayer, dea mi begegnet is'! isses in etwa nischt (mehr) so?


 
Was verstehst du unter einem italienischen "r" ??? Das wäre nicht imma sondern immerrrrr und nicht dea sondern derrrrrr


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## Kajjo

българин said:


> lol. I still sound foreign even if I do say it correctly. anyway, thanks for the advice.


You are welcome.  Honestly, the "z", "r" and "ch" sounds are important for proper pronunciation and you shouldn't give up on them.

Kajjo


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## übermönch

AGATHA2 said:


> Was verstehst du unter einem italienischen "r" ??? Das wäre nicht imma sondern immerrrrr und nicht dea sondern derrrrrr


Na, Bairisch ist ja kein Dialekt vom Deutschen, sondern 'ne germanische Sprache für sich  das Standartdeutsche R wird nur vor Konstanten nach Vokalen außer a zu einem a. Die Wörter "Ros", "Freida" oder "Rosa" werden mit einem herrlich rollendem R gesprochen _und geschrieben. _


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## boyaco

*българин*: I met many Bulgarians in Germany and only one of them could pronounce the standard German "R" (similar to French). I always gave them a hard time cause I could say it just fine . They all spoke fine German otherwise. None of the other sounds seemed to give them much trouble. 
I don't quite understand what they say here about singing. I have heard both "R" sounds in songs. Doesn't it depend on how you say it when you speak?


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## Kajjo

boyaco said:


> I don't quite understand what they say here about singing. I have heard both "R" sounds in songs. Doesn't it depend on how you say it when you speak?


It depends on what kind of singing you talk! Modern songs of course contain standard pronunciation (or dialectal pronunciation). The point about "singing" is only in classical singing like opera.

Kajjo


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## AGATHA2

übermönch said:


> Das Standartdeutsche R wird nur vor Konstanten nach Vokalen außer a zu einem a.


 
ähhhhh ??????


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## übermönch

AGATHA2 said:


> ähhhhh ??????


 Wuss issn nid klar?  also, da wo im Hochdeutschen ein R nach einem Vokal außer A steht, steht im Bairischen ein À
HD=Hochdeutsch, BD=Bairisch Deutsch
HD d*er*
BD d*eà*
wo es aber nicht zutrifft, steht im Bairischen auch ein R, welches allerdings, wie im italienischen, gerollt ausgesprochen wird.
HD *R*ose
BD *R*osa

HD Bai*r*isch
BD Bo*ar*isch

HD B*r*etzl
BD B*r*etzn

HD St*r*udel
BD St*r*udl

ausserdem gibt es im Bairischen den diminutativsuffix *-erl* für auf *-à* endene Wörter. Na sage mo, isch ols Hess muss nem Österreischa bairisch beibringe. Irrntwa stimmt da do nedd!


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## Vespasian

übermönch said:


> Scho imma...?  jedefalls, jeda bayer, dea mi begegnet is'! isses in etwa nischt (mehr) so?



Doch. Meiner Erfahrung nach trifft es auch bei Schweizern und Österreichern (die ich kenne) zu, dass das R mehrheitlich gerollt wird.


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## beclija

In Bayern und der Schweiz herrscht definitiv das koronale ("Zungenspitzen-") r vor, in Westösterreich (Vorarlberg, Tirol) auch. Im Rest Österreichs dürfte es im Laufe des 20. Jahrhunderts eine Verschiebung hin zum uvularen ("Gaumen-") R gegeben haben, wobei sich das koronale aber in einigen Gebieten und teils bei älteren Leuten gehalten hat. Meine Mutter zum Beispiel kann das koronale r nicht einmal aussprechen, in einer Dissertation, die in den Sechzigern über den Dorfdialekt ihres Geburtsorts geschrieben wurde (und die wie dies bei solchen Werken üblich ist vor allem die damaligen Altbauern als Informanten hernahm) ist es aber noch integraler Bestandteil der Mundart. Auf den meisten Dialektkarten (die von den ältesten zugänglichen Daten ausgehen) ist ganz Ö als koronal dargestellt, das stimmt aber schon lange nicht mehr (am wenigsten wohl für Wien, siehe unten).

Damit setzt sich gewissermaßen ein jahrhundertelanger Trend fort: In einem Einführungswerk zum Sprachwandel (hab die genaueren Referenzen nicht zur Hand) wird die Ausbreitung des uvularen Rs als Beispiel für einen soziologisch bedingten Sprachwandel dargestellt: Den Ausgang hat es demnach im Paris des 18. Jahrhunderts genommen, und da Frankreich im allgemeinen und Paris im Besonderen zu der Zeit groß in Mode war, strebten viele danach, das nachzuahmen. Dänisch ist heute zur Gänze "uvularisiert", Holländisch und Deutsch teilweise, und im Norwegischen gibt es auch einige Enklaven. (Wobei natürlich klar ist, dass das deutsche uvulare R nicht ganz dem französischen entspricht, aber das war eben die bestmögliche Annäherung, die wir schafften).

Ein Uvularist (außer wenn ich Allemannisch spreche).


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## Sidjanga

übermönch said:


> (...) it's pronounced differently in different parts of Germany. Austrians, Swiss and Bavarians rather use the Italian r. (...)


Reading in _The Cambridge Encyclopedia of Language_ by David Crystal, I have come across what seems to be the explanation for that phenomenon - a quite interesting passage, especially with regard to that curious but obviously quite widespread view that the uvular/velar/guttural pronunciation variant of the German /r/ is supposedly somehow "more German" than the tip-of-the-tongue variant: 


> Originally, speakers of European languages pronounced /r/ with the front of their tongue; but, in the 17th century, Parisians began to use a uvular variant. The variant caught on, spreading first throughout most of France, then to *parts of* Italy, Switzerland, [...] *Germany*, Denmark [...]. Spain, *Austria*, England, and other countries were *not affected*.
> 
> David Crystal: _The Cambridge Encyclopedia of Language_. Second Edition, 1997, p. 33


(bold parts highlighted by me)


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## Aloski

eine interessante Diskussion! Das r scheint tatsächlich sehr zu variieren, sowohl innerhalb einer Sprache als auch von Sprache zu Sprache. Ich finde das spanische doppel rr am schwierigsten: carro, perro, ferrocarril.
Abel walum nicht von den Chinesen lelnen? All r's mit l elsetzen?


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