# Language Learning/Society: Foreign language learning in massive decline in Britain



## AnotherStephen

The UK government decided a couple of years ago that school pupils no longer had to learn a foreign language for examinations at the age of 16. This has led to a dramatic decline in the number of kids taking subjects such as French and German, although Spanish is holding up well.

Does it matter? Many Brits think that a foreigner will understand, just so long as you talk to them in English, very loudly.  
Here is the story in the Guardian:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0,,1858050,00.html


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## don maico

Personally I think it does matter but only because i feek embarrased by the fact so many want to learn ours and we have little desire to learn theirs. I would encourage young kids to learn one other language say from 5 or 6 onwards.


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## linguist786

I'm worried about this too. I'd love to be a MFL teacher in the future, but if it carries on like this, there may not be a demand for any!!


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## AnotherStephen

I hated doing French at school, though I think it was in part an attitude problem. France and the French were alien to me. I didn't want to learn. That does tend to spoil one's chances of succeeding.

Anyway, if I'd had the chance of dropping French two years before the exams, I'd have grabbed it with both hands.


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## moodywop

What an interesting paradox! As I mentioned in the thread on language learning in Italy, Italian kids would love to learn to speak modern languages (English is the dominant language, but French still holds its own. A few kids study German or Spanish) but they are made to memorize facts instead ("The UK is a constitutional monarchy. The Queen is the head of state...bla bla bla") because so-called "culture" is seen as more important than language skills.

In the UK, instead, kids are dropping modern languages - though I understand the focus is rightly placed on language skills in UK schools.

The other odd aspect is that teaching methodology experts claim that revolutionary advances have been made with the new "communicative" teaching methods.
Although it survives in a few isolated pockets of resistance, the old "grammar+translation" method (here's the rule, kids - now apply it by translating these sentences) has mostly been discarded. The older teachers in Italy still stick to it and swear by it.

With the new methods there's plenty of listening practice. The recordings are not slow-paced (remember the old Linguaphone courses? "this -- is-- a -- gramophone - I still have the old LP's somewhere) but at natural speed. Pair work is used to get pupils to develop their fluency. 

And yet many kids still don't learn much - even with the new methods.

What can be done to make them more motivated? I'm willing to pay good money for practical, useful suggestions


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## AnotherStephen

moodywop said:


> And yet many kids still don't learn much - even with the new methods.
> 
> What can be done to make them more motivated? I'm willing to pay good money for practical, useful suggestions



You might like this poem. 

The Learner’s Task
Some say it isn’t any fun
to imitate another’s tongue;
while idioms and turns of phrase
can often baffle and amaze

Please read and comply with the Forum rules for quoted material.
Mod.
 K. Slater


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## zena168

Has anybody watched Fun with Dick and Jane?
I think hiring a foreign nanny who's bad at English is a pretty good way to start.


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## Setwale_Charm

Well, the British had never been particular good at learning foreign languages, were they? However, this is peculiar: the largest numbers of people speaking really many different languages, of poliglots, that is, that I have met, were always Brits


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## mytwolangs

I am not a Brit, but for any student - I don't think any foreign language should be required. Now before you say I am crazy, hear me out - 

Some of us want to learn another lang. Those who do not want to learn will feel it is being forced onto them. One cannot learn with force. 

I do however, feel that every student should have the opportunity to learn if they well please. I wish I could go back to HS and have taken French. In college even, but in my college, French was never offered.


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## loladamore

It is a shame that so few Brits want to learn other languages, as the benefits of foreign language learning are numerous. For example, learning another language enhances academic skills by increasing reading, writing, and mathematic abilities. Children who speak more than one language tend to demonstrate greater cognitive development, creativity, and divergent thinking than monolingual children.
Having said that, the number of bicultural and bilingual people living in the UK is on the increase, and therefore many people will have the benefits associated with bilingualism (for example, less likelihood of Alzheimer's ) even if they're not formally studying another language at school. It is the monolingual/monocultural minority that will start to fall behind, as bilinguals and polyglots tend to be better problem solvers.


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## zena168

loladamore said:


> It is a shame that so few Brits want to learn other languages, as the benefits of foreign language learning are numerous. For example, learning another language enhances academic skills by increasing reading, writing, and mathematic abilities. Children who speak more than one language tend to demonstrate greater cognitive development, creativity, and divergent thinking than monolingual children.
> Having said that, the number of bicultural and bilingual people living in the UK is on the increase, and therefore many people will have the benefits associated with bilingualism (for example, less likelihood of Alzheimer's ) even if they're not formally studying another language at school. It is the monolingual/monocultural minority that will start to fall behind, as bilinguals and polyglots tend to be better problem solvers.


 
That is very true~!!


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## Brioche

I'm not surprised that the kids in Britain have dropped languages. They know languages require a lot of work. It takes far, far more time and effort to get a high score in a language in Year 12 than in any other subject. This effort is not rewarded, so the rational thing is to drop language study.

The nasty part of me says this is all part of the dumbing down of society.


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## Benjy

Brioche said:


> I'm not surprised that the kids in Britain have dropped languages. They know languages require a lot of work. It takes far, far more time and effort to get a high score in a language in Year 12 than in any other subject. This effort is not rewarded, so the rational thing is to drop language study.
> 
> The nasty part of me says this is all part of the dumbing down of society.



I'm not sure that I totally agree with that. When I thinkof the  level I have been obliged to achieve in maths at A-level or gcse compared with the pitiful knowledge that I had in french at the time I know that maths was  harder hands down. I achieved a B at GCSE in french and was totally incapable of any kind of real conversation. Wheras in maths I hadalready mastered loads of things now which are still relevant skills on my degree course.

There are first year students at decent universities in britain  incapable of explaining where they went on their summer holidays in the langauges that they study.


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## nath1

I believe it may come down to the fact that kids in the UK just do not see the point. I mean that everything that a child seems to need is in English, either Uk english or American English. Television programmes in the Uk are dominated by American soaps, or movies. So it is logical that if they do not feel that other languages offer any real benefits then they will not learn. English seems to have become what French was in the 1800's, you only have to watch the news to see people from other countries speaking in English, good English. Im a studebt learning French and most if not all of the French people i have met know some or are almost fluent in English. Why because of music, films, ect.... I personally  think it is a shame but it is a sign of the times. Hopefully one day the trend may reverse but i do not see how. cheers


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## Brioche

Benjy said:


> I achieved a B at GCSE in french and was totally incapable of any kind of real conversation. Wheras in maths I hadalready mastered loads of things now which are still relevant skills on my degree course.


 
I've had a lot of milage from my French and German.
I can't say I've ever needed hyperbolic trig functions, imaginary numbers, gamma functions, Newton's iteration, Napier's bones or the many other things I've totally forgotten.


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## KaRiNe_Fr

nath1 said:


> I believe it may come down to the fact that kids in the UK just do not see the point. I mean that everything that a child seems to need is in English, either Uk english or American English. Television programmes in the Uk are dominated by American soaps, or movies. So it is logical that if they do not feel that other languages offer any real benefits then they will not learn.


What you are saying about UK children can be said for French ones too (and maybe for some other countries of European Community). TV programs are also all in French here (except on arte TV), it's rare to see a movie in its original version, and they don't see the point of learning foreign language either. I admit it's more obvious for UK children as they have the (fake) impression English language is the unique language for everybody can understand it. 
It's a real miscalculation to think what we learn have always to be useful right now, and there is nothing like language learning to open the mind of children. So bad for UK children, give them all my sympathies! 
On the other hand... I remember Spanish courses with about 40 teenagers in the classroom. I don't know how a teacher of a foreign language can manage that. If only those who are interested in learning Spanish were there, I guess more than half would be off, and it could have been heaven for the others!


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## AnotherStephen

KaRiNe_Fr said:


> and they [French kids] don't see the point of learning foreign language either. I admit it's more obvious for UK children as they have the (fake) impression English language is the unique language for everybody can understand it.



 It's easier for French children to choose which language to learn. As the tables here show http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_European_Union, English is way ahead as a second language in Europe. 34% of Europeans claim it as a second language. The next closest is German with 12%. As a choice it's what the Americans call a no-brainer, you don't even have to think about it.


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## nath1

So in that case would you say it is more of a cultural agenda. That it may be certain countries national curriculem to learn the children another langauge? Or would you say it is the English school childrens mentalitiy( not trying to include all kids in this as im sure there are those that do choose languages)? When i was at school i hated French, i was like most kids. Why learn french, i dont even like the french(even thought i had never met one!!!). I was just following the old anglo saxon adage of who ever does not speak english is not worthy. So it was my immaturity. However, these days i love languages i been studying at french for two years at uni. I love the french and now i deeply regret NOT having the sense to have paid attention at school. Like i suppose many kids will do later on in life . cheers


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## KaRiNe_Fr

AnotherStephen said:


> It's easier for French children to choose which language to learn. As the tables here show http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_European_Union, English is way ahead as a second language in Europe. 34% of Europeans claim it as a second language. The next closest is German with 12%. As a choice it's what the Americans call a no-brainer, you don't even have to think about it.


I don't get your point, sorry. 
Nobody can say English is not a language understood/spoken at a large scale. Do you mean it is an excuse sufficient enough to allow children not studying another language if this one is their mother tongue?
And I don't understand why you want to answer the question "which language French children should have to choose?"... which seems not to be the question here.


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## Julito_Maraña

AnotherStephen said:


> The UK government decided a couple of years ago that school pupils no longer had to learn a foreign language for examinations at the age of 16. This has led to a dramatic decline in the number of kids taking subjects such as French and German, although Spanish is holding up well.
> 
> Does it matter?



No. Everybody else either speaks English or is learning as we speak.


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## Paulfromitaly

KaRiNe_Fr said:


> What you are saying about UK children can be said for French ones too ...



There's a big difference though between UK kids and French kids: British children already speak a universal language and , although I agree with those who say that they should learn another language anyway, I can understand those British who don't consider the fact of speaking a foreign language necessary.
Differently, although French is an important language, it's not so widely spoken anymore..considering Europe only, where is French spoken? France, Belgium, Principality of Monaco...
The problem is more French people attitude: they often expect everybody else to speak and understand French, they pretend not to understand and speak English although they do.. 
I think that it's simply ridiculous expecting foreigners to speak our own language unless we come from an English speaking country: it's good and positive learning as many different languages as possible and if English is not our mother tongue it's also absolutely necessary, especially if we study them when we're still attending school.


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## KaRiNe_Fr

Paulfromitaly said:


> There's a big difference though between UK kids and French kids: British children already speak a universal language and , although I agree with those who say that they should learn another language anyway, I can understand those British who don't consider the fact of speaking a foreign language necessary.


It seems that you didn't understand my post #16 and surely because of my awful English.  I agree with that, and moreover I said that even for French people the point in learning another language (even English the-most-widely-spoken-language-in-Europe) is not seen. That's crazy but you can't ask a child to see all the importance of learning a language, simply because s/he is a child and often looks for short term benefits in what s/he learns.


> Differently, although French is an important language, it's not so widely spoken anymore..considering Europe only, where is French spoken? France, Belgium, Principality of Monaco...


 I do agree French is not such an important language and not so widely spoken and stuff.
Here again, that was not my point.
I was trying to express that there is a utility in learning any language even without taking into consideration how useful and practical the language itself is.
And now you make me realize again that as a child (and even after!) I should have studied more seriously English. I see I can't make myself understood here every other time.  That's always frustrating for me! Why oh why everybody don't speak _my_ language? (*)


> The problem is more French people attitude: they often expect everybody else to speak and understand French, they pretend not to understand and speak English although they do..


 That's not untrue.  But it is another debate. 


> I think that it's simply ridiculous expecting foreigners to speak our own language unless we come from an English speaking country: it's good and positive learning as many different languages as possible
> and if English is not our mother tongue it's also absolutely necessary, especially if we study them when we're still attending school.


 It's "natural" to think that way, I agree. Especially if you are a child. Why do you want me to be bored at foreign language classes as "the others" are learning my language? Actually it's too comfortable. But if you are member of the staff of the national education of a big country, I think it's worrying to think that and it leads to a not that good decision...

(*) Do I have to emphasise that this is a joke?


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## hanbaked

Well, the good news is that by 2010 all primary school children in the UK will have an entitlement to foreign language learning by law.  I teach French in several primary schools at the moment and I've been rather blown away by the level of enthusiasm which continues right the through the year.  In this respect, you may see a reversal of the decline in language learning in a few years time, when the children who have been given the opportunity to pick it up earlier, when it's easier to learn, will perhaps carry it on.

I put myself in the other person's shoes - someone comes up to me in the UK and shouts at me in their own language, would I be offended?  Er, yes!  This is my subjective opinion, but it's lazy and arrogant at least not to even try.


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## loladamore

hanbaked said:


> Well, the good news is that by 2010 all primary school children in the UK will have an entitlement to foreign language learning by law. I teach French in several primary schools at the moment and I've been rather blown away by the level of enthusiasm which continues right the through the year. In this respect, you may see a reversal of the decline in language learning in a few years time, when the children who have been given the opportunity to pick it up earlier, when it's easier to learn, will perhaps carry it on.


 

I think it's very strange that modern languages became optional at GCSE first, and THEN the primary programme started. Shouldn't it have been the other way round? 

I hope that hanbaked's experience is not unique and that children all across the country are becoming enthusiastic about foreign language learning. Certainly children aged 7-11 tend to be more receptive to many new ideas than 11-13 year olds, and yes, I think that many of those who start to learn a foreign language early will carry it on, as it will become an 'easier' option for them (many of those starting a language at 7 will achive GCSE level before they are 13!).


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## Blackleaf

The reason why the British (and the Americans and other English speakers) are not good at learning other languages is because we don't need to. Throughout the 20th Century, Englishw as the world's lingua franca and it looks like it will remain so in the 21st. When we speak the world's top language, its lingua franca, we don't need to learn other languages.


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## AnotherStephen

Blackleaf said:


> When we speak the world's top language, its lingua franca, we don't need to learn other languages.



You make it sound like that's an achievement for Brits to boast about. Let's face it if the Americans didn't speak English, the rest of the world wouldn't be nearly so keen to learn it.


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## AnotherStephen

loladamore said:


> I think that many of those who start to learn a foreign language early will carry it on, as it will become an 'easier' option for them (many of those starting a language at 7 will achive GCSE level before they are 13!).



The Dutch are amazing at foreign languages. I think they start from a very early age. Even their footballers who come over to England, often speak good English.


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## loladamore

AnotherStephen said:


> The Dutch are amazing at foreign languages. I think they start from a very early age. Even their footballers who come over to England, often speak good English.


 
Which makes a nice change from many footballers born and bred in the UK...


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## AnotherStephen

KaRiNe_Fr said:


> I don't get your point, sorry.
> Nobody can say English is not a language understood/spoken at a large scale. Do you mean it is an excuse sufficient enough to allow children not studying another language if this one is their mother tongue?
> And I don't understand why you want to answer the question "which language French children should have to choose?"... which seems not to be the question here.



I thought in your earlier post that you seemed to be saying that it made no sense for British schoolchildren to opt out of foreign languages.

You said, "They (British kids) have the (fake) impression English language is the unique language for everybody can understand it."

I'm saying in some ways at least, their decision has some sense, because no foreign language stands out to them as *the* one to learn. Not everybody can understand English, no, but almost as many people in Europe can understand English, as French and German combined.


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## KaRiNe_Fr

AnotherStephen said:


> I thought in your earlier post that you seemed to be saying that it made no sense for British schoolchildren to opt out of foreign languages.
> 
> You said, "They (British kids) have the (fake) impression English language is the unique language for everybody can understand it."
> 
> I'm saying in some ways at least, their decision has some sense, because no foreign language stands out to them as *the* one to learn. Not everybody can understand English, no, but almost as many people in Europe can understand English, as French and German combined.


I get your two points now. Thanks AnotherStephen. 
About sense, I didn't mean their decision made no sense, as I think it is merely human to react like this. 
About the difficulty in chosing another language as there is no other obvious language to learn... I would say, I, as a child, would have been very happy to have as many choices for a foreign language to learn as brits kids have.  This is a real chance for them. Also, I can say with a little of bad faith (as I'm going abroad of Europe) that the language to learn now is obviously Chinese.


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## Paulfromitaly

AnotherStephen said:


> The Dutch are amazing at foreign languages. I think they start from a very early age. Even their footballers who come over to England, often speak good English.



Dutch, Swedish, Norwegian, Finnish, Danish...open minded cultures


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## Benjy

Brioche said:


> I've had a lot of milage from my French and German.
> I can't say I've ever needed hyperbolic trig functions, imaginary numbers, gamma functions, Newton's iteration, Napier's bones or the many other things I've totally forgotten.



pish   I wanted to focus on the difficulty discrepency that you mentioned. Thats what I disagreed with. The other day I made some french au pair's day by serving her infrench onthe fish counter at work but I can't thinkof an instance whereI have discussed  solutions to Laplaces equation with anyone. Modern langauges is obviously a subject of broader application than maths, however I don't think that the (percieved) difficulty level is what's putting kids off it, because there are other subjects in which it is of the same difficulty or harder to score a top end grade. Although given pass rates for the GCSE maybe it's no longerappropriate to talk about difficulty


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## zena168

For Chinese and probably many other non-English countries English is a required course for high school and or junior high kids.  Many wealthier middle and upper class would even send kids to English preschools.  People have taken a tremendous effort to adopt the language and learn the English (American) culture.  They’re learning things to bring back and enrich their own country as well.  But English speakers seem to lack an interest to venture outward.  For example, there are many business opportunities in Asia (or China at the moment) but those niches were all taken up by other neighborhood Asians who took the effort to learn the language (along with English).  Europeans cared less about these opportunities or very few cared to look beyond their own horizon.  We don’t know whose going to lead the global economy for the next generation but we can get kids prepped for it.  
Let’s face it, times change and it only takes one generation or a decade to completely change the “lingua franca” status.  It is a fact that a child who knew more than one language will have a much easier time picking up a third or a fourth later.  I don’t think kids should be forced to learn a second language but the opportunity shouldn’t escape them.


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## PedroAznar

KaRiNe_Fr said:


> What you are saying about UK children can be said for French ones too (and maybe for some other countries of European Community). TV programs are also all in French here (except on arte TV), it's rare to see a movie in its original version, and they don't see the point of learning foreign language either. I admit it's more obvious for UK children as they have the (fake) impression English language is the unique language for everybody can understand it.



No I don't think it can to be honest. The difference is French and other children understand almost all popular culture from pop music to films to the Da Vinci Code are in English. They see their favourite artists or film stars speaking in English. In some countries (like Sweden) films are left undubbed with subtitling. This is the case also for many MTV shows which cannot be dubbed on French, German and other language stations like Pimp My Ride for example.

For native English speakers where's the desire? French or other language movies, books or songs are almost unknown and as they see it, English is the (second) language of the world.

I'm not saying it's right (far from it) but it's understandable.


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## sound shift

The UK has a Prime Minister who sees education merely as preparation for a job and is desperate to please big business. UK employers say that language skills are not very important.


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## BlueWolf

Paulfromitaly said:


> There's a big difference though between UK kids and French kids: British children already speak a universal language and , although I agree with those who say that they should learn another language anyway, I can understand those British who don't consider the fact of speaking a foreign language necessary.



There's a big difference between language most spoken and universal language. English is the language most spoken, most known around the world, but it's not absolutely universal.
The statistic was that 47% of people speak English in Europe, whose 13% as mother tongue. It means if you take 100 Europeans and you know only English, you'll be able to speak with less than a half of them. And in this 47%, most of them can't actually keep a true conversation, because they learnt at school, they never used it and they aren't able to really speak in English (and I've seen many people like this). In second position there will be the people who have a good level of English, but they still can't keep a conversation with an English native speakers (and this is a reason because we who learnt English as second language often feel better to speak it with non-native speaker). Finally there is the (by now very little) portion of people who have a really decent English, and of this portion almost all are English native speaker.

Do you call English an universal language in a situation like that? English people love to think they'll be understood everywhere, but the true situation is deeply different.


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## KittyCatty

When something compulsory becomes optional, isn't it natural to expect a decline in the number of people taking that subject? Maths for example is still compulsory but I'm sure the numbers would fall dramatically if people could say no to Maths and take up something easier. I also agree that it is a question of putting work in which, let's face it, not many teens are willing to do. It takes practice, patience and learning vocab and grammar - which, if it doesn't come easily to the pupil, is really hard. The trend at A level is also interesting - it seems that normally it's only pupils who got As and A* at GCSE who carry on with languages. In my French A level class for example out of about 15, 8 were applying to Oxbridge. Maybe it needs to be more accessible to prevent a "massive decline", but that doesn't seem likely now it's optional. I don't think the British public should be targeted for their supposedly insular ways. Maybe the government should be doing more, not less - like making GCSE languages optional, to help people realise how useful languages are.


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## AnotherStephen

BlueWolf said:


> There's a big difference between language most spoken and universal language. English is the language most spoken, most known around the world, but it's not absolutely universal.
> 
> English people love to think they'll be understood everywhere, but the true situation is deeply different.



All you say is probably true, but even more so for a language such as German, or French.

If an English child learns German, what chance is there of them being understood, with their German in (for example) Spain?


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## BlueWolf

AnotherStephen said:


> All you say is probably true, but even more so for a language such as German, or French.
> 
> If an English child learns German, what chance is there of them being understood, with their German in (for example) Spain?



Of course, as I said, I don't mean to say English isn't so useful/known for travels. I only mean that when English people think they can go everywhere and they will be understood they wrong, because not so many people will be able to understand really them.
So German in Spain won't be so useful. But since the England has commercial trades with most of other country, an English person who studied German will be very useful in trades with Germany, Austria and so on, without pretending to demand that always the others strive.
Moreover if it's you to speak the other language you know what you have understood and what you haven't. But English people who think they'll be always perfectly understood could find easily in troubles.


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## Shu_Fen

Politics, policy and propensity are the answers. The UK Blair govt. is more pro-USA than pro-EU. When the two nations are using the same language, though with difference, why learning the multiple tongues of the Continent?

The Guardian report beats me a lot: Brit young people can choose French or German in secondary school BUT how many of them can speak/keep it after they enter higher education? Not many. Besides keeping the jobs of the languages teachers, Brit Education Board does not need to worry about the decline. Ian Smith and other business leaders' "risked leaving pupils unable to compete in the global economy" pretext is an invalid one because the world is learning yours, John Bull, don't worry. If you give people business and you speak English, automatically their heads will switch radio channel from their own hometown's to London BBC. Besides, as long as the US is still the bully of the world in every aspect, the English language still has its world market. Russian, Chinese and Spanish still have to wait at least a century to be the world's universal language.

If I were a Brit/Yankee/Aussie/New Zealander/Canadian, seeing that the world population of ESL is higher than that of first language, would I bother to spend time on the others? No, of course not. The world is learning mine. If one day, the difficult Mandarin (Putonghua) were the world's universal language, sorry, I wouldn't waste my time on other languages unless I am interested in them. (Oh, life is short, no way.)

Centuries ago, it was the missionaries who were willing to learn languages used by small population owing to the name of Jesus, the undeveloped world transport and communication. Today, it's another story.


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