# Und da soll noch einmal jemand sagen, dass Geschichte nicht interessant sein kann.



## Margarita*

Can anybody give me a translation of this sentence into English?

Und da soll noch einmal jemand sagen, dass Geschichte nicht interessant sein kann./nicht interessant ist.

Thank you in advance!
Margarita*


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## cyanista

Ich würde sagen:

So don't you tell me that History can't be (isn't) interesting!


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## gaer

cyanista said:
			
		

> Ich würde sagen:
> 
> So don't you tell me that History can't be (isn't) interesting!


I would not have been able to read that with confidence out of context. Is this a common way to express this idea?

Gaer


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## Krümelmonster

Yes, it is!


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## cyanista

Ein frei erfundenes Beispiel:
"Eine Umfrage hat ergeben, dass rund 92% aller Männer mehrmals in der Woche Gesichts- und Körperpflegeprodukte verwenden. Und da soll noch einmal jemand sagen, Kosmetik sei nichts für Manner!"

Oder so:
Man sagt öfters, dass x = y, aber man darf es mir gegenüber nicht mehr behaupten, weil  ich einen Beweis dafür habe , dass x = z. 

Hast du einen besseren Übersetzungsvorschlag, Gaer?


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## gaer

Krümelmonster said:
			
		

> Yes, it is!


The reason I asked:

"So don't you tell me" is not extremely common in a search. I would normally say: "So don't tell me [that]…"

When we put in "you" in command form, we tend to add "dare": Don't you _dare_ tell me that, and adding "so" in the beginning is very idiomatic. I would most likely write one of these two:

1) So don't tell me that history can't be interesting!

2) So don't you dare tell me that history can't be interesting!

Cyanista's suggestion is also correct though. It does not sound wrong to me.

This does not seem common to me:

Results 1 - 10 of about 36 for "Und da soll noch einmal jemand sagen". 
Results 1 - 10 of about 176 for "da soll noch einmal jemand sagen". 

I'm not saying that it would not be immediately understandable to anyone in Germany, only that it is not a phrase that I have run across often enough to notice. 

Gaer


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## Krümelmonster

Nun, man kann das natürlich noch etwas abwandeln... "da sage noch einer" has more than 29.000 matches, for example...


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## Aur0n87

_"So don't you dare tell me that history can't be interesting!"_

One question. My "Sprachgefühl"* tells me that it must be:

"So don´t you dare tell*ing* me that history can´t be interesting!"

Can you say either or am I wrong?


*What´s "Sprachgefühl" in English? Sense of language?


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## gaer

Krümelmonster said:
			
		

> Nun, man kann das natürlich noch etwas abwandeln... "da sage noch einer" has more than 29.000 matches, for example...


Ah! Okay, it's all clear now. 

Gaer


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## gaer

Aur0n87 said:
			
		

> _"So don't you dare tell me that history can't be interesting!"_
> 
> One question. My "Sprachgefühl"* tells me that it must be:
> 
> "So don´t you dare tell*ing* me that history can´t be interesting!"
> 
> Can you say either or am I wrong?
> 
> 
> *What´s "Sprachgefühl" in English? Sense of language?


Results 1 - 10 of about 15 for "don't you dare telling me". 

To my ear this is simply wrong, but it proves that almost anything you think of will be used by someone. 

Results 1 - 10 of about 21,700 for "don't you dare tell me". 

I would strongly suggest that you use "tell", not "telling".

One other thing: if you say this phrase in English without making it clear that you are being humorous, it sounds very harsh.

It seems that everyone who normally participates here is either asleep or busy elsewhere. 

Gaer


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## Paskovich

I would have said "dare telling" too.

Mh ok, but is this "dare tell" some kind of "special" phrase?

Isn´t it normally:

_to dare to do sth._ ?

And can´t you say _doing_ instead of _to do_?


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## gaer

Paskovich said:
			
		

> I would have said "dare telling" too.
> 
> Mh ok, but is this "dare tell" some kind of "special" phrase?
> 
> Isn´t it normally:
> 
> _to dare to do sth._ ?
> 
> And can´t you say _doing_ instead of _to do_?


Wow, I have no idea how to explain this.  Unfortunately, no one else seems to be around.

"Don't you dare…! is an set phrase.

"Don't you dare do that."
"Don't you dare disobey me again."
"Don't you dare ever say something like that to me again."
"Don't you dare hit your sister."

When you say this seriously, it is a command. It shows anger, and you either direct such a statement at someone much younger or someone whom you consider "inferior".

When it is said humorously, it is merely emphasizing a statement or opinion. 

I don't think I have answered your question very well.

Could you give me a few sentences in German and English? Then I might be able to help more, from context.

Gaer


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## cyanista

Paskovich said:
			
		

> I would have said "dare telling" too.
> 
> Mh ok, but is this "dare tell" some kind of "special" phrase?
> 
> Isn´t it normally:
> 
> _to dare to do sth._ ?
> 
> And can´t you say _doing_ instead of _to do_?



As Wiki puts it:


> The English verbs _dare_ and _need_ have both a modal use (_he dare not do it_), and a non-modal use (_he doesn't dare to do it_).



Also es kommt darauf an, ob man dare als Modalverb benutzt (z.B. um ein Verbot zum Ausdruck zu bringen) oder neutral als Vollverb.

dare + Ving ist schlichtweg falsch.

@Aur0n: ich glaube, die beste Übersetzung für "Sprachgefühl" wäre "feel for language". In gebildeten Kreisen dürfte "Sprachgefühl" auch unübersetzt verstanden werden.  (Stimmt das, Gaer?)


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## Paskovich

Naja - ich rede jetzt mal aus Rücksicht auf deine Signatur Deutsch - ich will das eher allgemein wissen.

Im Deutschen würde ich auch sagen:

_Wage nicht mir *zu* sagen(*to* tell), dass ..._

bzw. heißt es ja allgemein:

_(sich) wagen etwas zu tun_

Deshalb dachte ich eben an _Don´t you dare telling me_ davon ausgehend, dass es 1. _Don´t you dare to tell me_ heißt und man 2. _to tell_ durch _telling_ ersetzen kann.

Nun sagtest du ja bereits, dass _Don´t you dare_ eine feststehende Wendung ist.

Die Bedeutung dieser Wendung brauchst du mir nicht zu erklären, die ist mir , ob nun ernst gemeint oder nicht, voll und ganz bewusst.


Zusatz:

Ich ging halt davon aus, dass man _to tell_ durch _telling_ ersetzen kann, weil man ja, wenn ich mich nicht irre, in bestimmten Fällen _to + infinitive_ durch das _gerund_ ersetzen kann.

Zusatz 2:

Also ist _dare_ in diesem Fall so wie z.B. _can_?
_he can not do it_ - _he dare not do it_ 
Jetzt nicht vom Sinn, sondern von der Grammatik her.

Gibt es denn nun einen wirklichen inhaltlichen Unterschied zwischen _he dare not do it_ und _he doesn´t dare to do it_? - Offenbar hat _dare_ hier, wie du ja schon sagtest cyanista, die Bedeutung von _dürfen_.
Aber in _Don´t you dare tell me_ hat es doch wohl nicht die Bedeutung von _dürfen_ ... ? Mh ok doch, indirekt.


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## gaer

cyanista said:
			
		

> @Aur0n: ich glaube, die beste Übersetzung für "Sprachgefühl" wäre "feel for language". In gebildeten Kreisen dürfte "Sprachgefühl" auch unübersetzt verstanden werden.  (Stimmt das, Gaer?)


I can't answer your question because "Sprachgefühl", to me, is such a natural word and such an important one. However, those around me continue to be almost 100% ignorant when it comes to even a word or two in German. French continues to have "bragging rights", so "educated" people continue to sprinkle a few Frech words into their conversation or writing, here and there, but I see almost no German.

In this forum, however, I think that the words "Müttersprachler" and "Sprachgefühl" should be standard. What do you think? 

Gaer


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## cyanista

Paskovich said:
			
		

> Zusatz 2:
> 
> Also ist _dare_ in diesem Fall so wie z.B. _can_?
> _he can not do it_ - _he dare not do it_
> Jetzt nicht vom Sinn, sondern von der Grammatik her.


Genau. Diese Erklärung hier finde ich gut. Man kann auch dem Modalverb dare die Partikel "to" hinzufügen ("don't you dare to ..") aber es ist eher selten.



> Gibt es denn nun einen wirklichen inhaltlichen Unterschied zwischen _he dare not do it_ und _he doesn´t dare to do it_?


Meines Erachtens, ja. Das erste ist ein Verbot (er darf es nicht, er sollte es nicht wagen), das zweite ist eine neutrale Aussage (er traut sich nicht).



			
				Gaer said:
			
		

> In this forum, however, I think that the words "M*u*ttersprachler" and "Sprachgefühl" should be standard. What do you think?


 Das ist mir neu, dass es auch noch "Muttersprachler" im Englischen gibt! Ist dann "native speaker" eine Direktübersetzung???


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## gaer

cyanista said:
			
		

> Das ist mir neu, dass es auch noch "Muttersprachler" im Englischen gibt! Ist dann "native speaker" eine Direktübersetzung???


I meant only in this forum, since most of us here know both English and German, and "Mütterspracher" is such a cool word for "Mother-Tongue-Speakers". Of ocurse "native speakers" is fine, but I like the German word. 

Gaer


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## Krümelmonster

Ich will ja keine Haarspalterei betreiben, aber scheinbar hast du die Korrektur durch Cyanista übersehen: Es muss "Muttersprachler" heißen und nicht "Müttersprach(l)er" (auch: die Muttersprache).

Mila


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## elroy

This thread has branched off into so many little discussions we may soon forget what the original question was. 

Nevertheless, a few comments:

-"Don't you dare doing" is simply incorrect in English.  Paskovich, you are right that the infinitive can _sometimes_ be replaced by the gerund, but not in this case.

-The English forum is full of threads discussing the differences between "dare do" and "dare to do."  I know I've come across at least a couple.

-"Sprachgefühl" is, as Cyanista said, "feel for (a) language." 

Back to the main topic: My translation would be "So _don't anyone_ tell me that history can't be interesting!" unless the person were specifically directing his statement at a particular person.


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## cyanista

elroy said:
			
		

> Back to the main topic: My translation would be "So _don't anyone_ tell me that history can't be interesting!" unless the person were specifically directing his statement at a particular person.



Ja, vielleicht ist es besser, aber ich muss meine Version verteidigen. "You" ist nicht immer auf eine konkrete Person gerichtet, es kann durchaus eine unpersönliche Anredeform sein.  Z.B. " 9 Ways to Motivate  Yourself When You Just Don't Feel Like It" ("Everyone can use these tips!") oder "You know how it is, waiting at the doctors office.." ("Everyone knows that!"). Ich finde, man kann "So don't you tell me it's boring" oder Ähnliches an alle und niemanden im besonderen richten.


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## elroy

cyanista said:
			
		

> Ja, vielleicht ist es besser, aber ich muss meine Version verteidigen. "You" ist nicht immer auf eine konkrete Person gerichtet, es kann durchaus eine unpersönliche Anredeform sein. Z.B. " 9 Ways to Motivate Yourself When You Just Don't Feel Like It" ("Everyone can use these tips!") oder "You know how it is, waiting at the doctors office.." ("Everyone knows that!"). Ich finde, man kann "So don't you tell me it's boring" oder Ähnliches an alle und niemanden im besonderen richten.


Mmm...einerseits hast du Recht - "you" kann durchaus generell verwendet werden, andererseits bestehe ich immer noch darauf, dass es sich _in diesem Fall_ irgendwie zu persönlich anhört, auch wenn keine konkrete Person damit angesprochen werden soll (ich hätte mich besser ausdrücken sollen).  Der Unterschied zwischen deinem Satz und meinem ließe sehr schwer zum Ausdruck bringen, aber mir persönlich würde "so don't you tell me that..." in einem öffentlichen Werk einigermaßen als persönliche Anrede auffallen.

Ich bin nun auf andere Meinungen gespannt, insbesondere auf die von Gaer.


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## gaer

Krümelmonster said:
			
		

> Ich will ja keine Haarspalterei betreiben, aber scheinbar hast du die Korrektur durch Cyanista übersehen: Es muss "Muttersprachler" heißen und nicht "Müttersprach(l)er" (auch: die Muttersprache).
> 
> Mila


Ah, let's open a new thread to avoid topic-drift. 

Gaer


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## jester.

gaer said:
			
		

> Ah, let's open a new thread to avoid topic-drift.
> 
> Gaer



That won't be necessary. There is no such word as "M*ü*tterprachler". It's "M*u*ttersprachler". Undoubtedly.


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## Whodunit

elroy said:
			
		

> Back to the main topic: My translation would be "So _don't anyone_ tell me that history can't be interesting!" unless the person were specifically directing his statement at a particular person.


 
I know about this construction, but I always wanted to know what number "don't" has. Doesn't it have to correspond to "anyone"? However, upon further reflection, "doesn't anyone tell me" would sound horrible and have another connotation.

I guess that "anyone" has to be a direct object in this case.


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## elroy

Whodunit said:
			
		

> I know about this construction, but I always wanted to know what number "don't" has. Doesn't it have to correspond to "anyone"? However, upon further reflection, "doesn't anyone tell me" would sound horrible and have another connotation.
> 
> I guess that "anyone" has to be a direct object in this case.


"Doesn't" is never used in an imperative.  It's always "don't."  "Anyone" here is the subject of the imperative verb, which is normally not expressed.  That's because normally the understood subject is "you," so there's no need to express it.  In this case, however, it's "anyone," so we express it.


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## Whodunit

elroy said:
			
		

> "Doesn't" is never used in an imperative. It's always "don't."


 
I never said anything else. 



> "Anyone" here is the subject of the imperative verb, which is normally not expressed. That's because normally the understood subject is "you," so there's no need to express it. In this case, however, it's "anyone," so we express it.


 
I don't understand your last remark, sorry. And I still don't see what you mean by the implied (but not written) "you". "Don't anyone tell me" does not make much sense, I think, unless you can use subjects for imperatives:

Don't the man meet me again.
Don't your mother ask me for this again.

They sound entirely wrong to me, but they seem to be based on the same constructions like "don't anyone tell me".


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## elroy

When I say "Don't bother me," the subject "you" is understood.  It's only used for emphasis: "Don't you bother me."

With "man" and "your mother," we would use "let" (which is not a "ture imperative"): "Don't let the man/your mother contact me."

Why is it ok to use "anybody" exactly like "you"?  I'm not sure.  Maybe it has to do with its being a pronoun and not a noun.  We could namely use "everybody" in the same way:  "Don't everybody come to the airport to meet me."


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## Whodunit

Okay, now I'm beginning to understand it. It's just that I wanted to compare your imperative sentence with German, and it didn't work. That's because we can't use such impersonal imperatives.


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## gaer

elroy said:
			
		

> Mmm...einerseits hast du Recht - "you" kann durchaus generell verwendet werden, andererseits bestehe ich immer noch darauf, dass es sich _in diesem Fall_ irgendwie zu persönlich anhört, auch wenn keine konkrete Person damit angesprochen werden soll (ich hätte mich besser ausdrücken sollen). Der Unterschied zwischen deinem Satz und meinem ließe sehr schwer zum Ausdruck bringen, aber mir persönlich würde "so don't you tell me that..." in einem öffentlichen Werk einigermaßen als persönliche Anrede auffallen.
> 
> Ich bin nun auf andere Meinungen gespannt, insbesondere auf die von Gaer.


Total agreement, Elroy.

"So don't you tell me it's boring" is personal. It is aimed at one person in particular, or more than one person, as a group. It's sharp and potentially very rude, argumentative or combative. As I said earlier, then only way I see it as "safe" is when it is used in a humorous way.

It's a very difficult thing to explain, don't you think? 

Gaer


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## gaer

cyanista said:
			
		

> Ein frei erfundenes Beispiel:
> "Eine Umfrage hat ergeben, dass rund 92% aller Männer mehrmals in der Woche Gesichts- und Körperpflegeprodukte verwenden. Und da soll noch einmal jemand sagen, Kosmetik sei nichts für Manner!"
> 
> Oder so:
> Man sagt öfters, dass x = y, aber man darf es mir gegenüber nicht mehr behaupten, weil ich einen Beweis dafür habe , dass x = z.
> 
> Hast du einen besseren Übersetzungsvorschlag, Gaer?


Sorry to be so late. I missed your post while replying. We "crossed":

"Eine Umfrage hat ergeben, dass rund 92% aller Männer mehrmals in der Woche Gesichts- und Körperpflegeprodukte verwenden. Und da soll noch einmal jemand sagen, Kosmetik sei nichts für Manner!"

"A poll showed [has shown] that around 92% of all men use 'body and face care' products.'

"And to think that people (one) say (says) that cosmetics are not for men!"

*"And to think there are those who say cosmetics are not for men!"*

(You could also use your "don't dare say" idiom, but in this instance I would use one of the above expressions because the structure is a bit more formal. Other people may disagree, however. Perhaps Elroy will give us his opinion, now that he seems to be among us again.) 

Gaer


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## gaer

Krümelmonster said:
			
		

> Ich will ja keine Haarspalterei betreiben, aber scheinbar hast du die Korrektur durch Cyanista übersehen: Es muss "Muttersprachler" heißen und nicht "Müttersprach(l)er" (auch: die Muttersprache).
> 
> Mila


It's not hairsplitting. I got the wrong spelling in my brain, and I'm glad you pointed that out to me. I missed it!

Gaer


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## elroy

I like Gaer's suggestion a lot.  Another option that occurs to me is a sarcastic, "Now tell me cosmetics aren't for men!"  which is, again, more direct.  I guess it all depends on the connotation you wish to convey. 

And yes, Gaer, these subtleties are not at all easy to explain!


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## gaer

elroy said:
			
		

> I like Gaer's suggestion a lot. Another option that occurs to me is a sarcastic, "Now tell me cosmetics aren't for men!" which is, again, more direct. I guess it all depends on the connotation you wish to convey.
> 
> And yes, Gaer, these subtleties are not at all easy to explain!


I know! These translations always need to be in contect in order to come up with something suitable. If the line above were in a magazine, I would use my suggestion. Otherwise I would very likely use yours. 

By the way, you have been missed!!!

Gaer


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