# por descarte



## riglos

¡Hola a todos!

¿Existe algún equivalente a esta expresión *en inglés*?
Esta es una frase que se utiliza cuando queremos decir que hemos elegido, por ejemplo, una opción ante otras, no por saber realmente cuál era la opción correcta, sino porque hemos "descartado"/ "eliminado" todas las otras, por saber que eran incorrectas.

Ejemplo:
A: ¿Que opción elegiste para la pregunta 2, a), b), c) o d)?
B: Elegí la c), pero no porque supiera que era la correcta, sino "*por descarte*". (Es decir, porque sabía que a), b) y d) no eran correctas.)

¡Muchas gracias!

Mara.


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## Eugin

Hola Mara!!
Lo busqué en mi diccionario (Oxford) y ahí dice que se puede decir como: "I arrived to that answer *by a process of elimination*". 

No sé si te sirva, pero al menos te paso esa "punta"...
Saludos!


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## riglos

Thanks a lot Eugin! The phrase you provided is really useful, but isn't there a shorter or more idiomatic one which conveys the same meaning? What do natives say here? I'm sure you must have used the expression some time! Something including the phrasal "rule out" maybe?

Thanks again!

Mara.


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## Ron in LA

The simplest, most readily understood, and most idiomatic translation of "por descarte" would be "by process of elimination."

The Oxford dictionary gave you a terrible sentence.  It would be better as "I found the answer by the process of elimination."  Or "I reached the answer by the process of elimination."  Or "I arrived at the answer by the process of elimination."

Most commonly and less formally:  "I figured it out by process of elimination."


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## riglos

Hi Ron and thanks for your contribution to this thread! Your comments were very helpful. Now, why does Oxford's sentence (i.e. "I arrived to that answer *by a process of elimination*") sound that terrible to you? Your versions were quite similar, so I'd be interested in knowing were the oddness lies for you.

Thanks a lot!

Mara.


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## borikano

"por Descarte" --   " By Discarding"


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## jinti

I'd say I picked C by process of elimination (no article before "process").  Yes, it's a little long, but that's really how we say it.


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## GiggLiden

Eugin said:
			
		

> Hola Mara!!
> Lo busqué en mi diccionario (Oxford) y ahí dice que se puede decir como: "I arrived to that answer *by a process of elimination*".
> 
> No sé si te sirva, pero al menos te paso esa "punta"...
> Saludos!



arrived AT ...
or 
reached ...
but NOT
arrived to


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## DaleC

by default 



			
				riglos said:
			
		

> ¡Hola a todos!
> 
> ¿Existe algún equivalente a esta expresión *en inglés*?
> Esta es una frase que se utiliza cuando queremos decir que hemos elegido, por ejemplo, una opción ante otras, no por saber realmente cuál era la opción correcta, sino porque hemos "descartado"/ "eliminado" todas las otras, por saber que eran incorrectas.
> 
> Ejemplo:
> A: ¿Que opción elegiste para la pregunta 2, a), b), c) o d)?
> B: Elegí la c), pero no porque supiera que era la correcta, sino "*por descarte*". (Es decir, porque sabía que a), b) y d) no eran correctas.)


 
Tu ejemplo es quizas un poco limitado. Para éste sirve "by process of elimination". "By default" tiene un gamut de sentido más ancho.


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## Ron in LA

"Arrived to" is absolutely wrong.  It would only be "arrived at".

The sentence is also very formal.  I would consider use of the article "the" or "a" before "process of elimination" to be optional, and I prefer the sentence without the article.


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## EVAVIGIL

*"By default?"*
Saluditos.
EVA.


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## rreff

riglos "ruled out" es excelente y usado mucho aqui, pj: During the test I chose answer "A" not because I thought it was the right answer, but only because I ruled out all the others (B,C,D). Ruling out algo significa que puede descartalo.


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## EL SABIO

riglos said:
			
		

> Hi Ron and thanks for your contribution to this thread! Your comments were very helpful. Now, why does Oxford's sentence (i.e. "I arrived to that answer *by a process of elimination*") sound that terrible to you? Your versions were quite similar, so I'd be interested in knowing were the oddness lies for you.
> 
> Thanks a lot!
> 
> Mara.



A mi parecer, la oración se oye bien y es muy correcto.


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## Christian

El Sabio--

   Arrive at, never arrive to. Don't you agree?


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## riglos

DaleC said:
			
		

> by default
> 
> 
> 
> Tu ejemplo es quizas un poco limitado. Para éste sirve "by process of elimination". "By default" tiene un gamut de sentido más ancho.


 
Hi DaleC! Could you please expand a little bit on the meaning of "by default" and on the uses of this phrase? 

Thanks a lot!

Oh! And BTW, I limited my example on purpose, for that was the meaning I was after.

Mara.


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## DaleC

riglos said:
			
		

> Hi DaleC! Could you please expand a little bit on the meaning of "by default" and on the uses of this phrase?
> 
> Thanks a lot!
> 
> Oh! And BTW, I limited my example on purpose, for that was the meaning I was after.
> 
> Mara.


I was supposing that descarte might apply more widely than to just the situation you described, and I am interested to know more about that word. 

My definitions will just be suggestive. For precise wording, you can use www.dictionary.com, www.pcwebopaedia.com, etc. 

Ever since the computer age dawned, now the commonest use of default is for "automatic" or "standard" settings of hardware and software, and for noncomputing devices too. I am trying to become fluent in Spanish and German and was astonished to discover that German at least does not have a generally agreed upon translation of 'default', and at the time of my research I couldn't determine the Spanish translation either. For example, when you log onto a Website, it will either automatically remember your password or automatically not remember your password (and this depends on the choice made by the network administrator). These are defaults. Can you give me the Spanish word for this? 

The meaning of default in your example is more general than just exams. A relatively frequent phrase with 'default' is 'winner by default', which is someone who wins because their opponent(s) was/were disqualified or who suffered physical distress in mid match. So really, yeah, that is another process of elimination, but not in a test. Or, if your group winds up choosing a particular restaurant for your evening outing because all the other choices turned out not to be feasible, you might say you chose restaurant X by default. 

To sum up, there are two uses of 'default': 'default setting', which is 'default in advance' so to speak, of mechanical or software settings on a car, computer hardware, computer software, or other device. (2) 'default outcome (choice, etc.)'. 

Saludos, 
Dale


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## Ron in LA

Riglos,

For your example, "process of elimination" is perfect and "default" is not correct.  "Default" means that there are no other alternatives.  In your example, there are other alternatives that you eliminated by your knowledge of the subject matter.  

There is no reason to avoid "process of elimination".  It is a common expression, fits your need precisely, and is readily understood.


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## riglos

Oh that's very interesting, Dale! Thanks a lot for your explanation! I think the equivalents in Spanish for the two uses of "default" you mentioned are as follows:

*1.* 'default': 'default setting', which is 'default in advance' so to speak, of mechanical or software settings on a car, computer hardware, computer software, or other device *= "predeterminado/ preestablecido", "por defecto"*
*2.* 'default outcome (choice, etc.)' *= "por defecto" *(also), i.e. "*a falta de una alternativa mejor". *I'm not sure whether in this situation "default" is equivalent to *"por descarte"*, and that's my main doubt!

Now, I think the situations you described, namely 'winner by default', or, so to speak 'the evening outing situation', have to do with the idea of 'failure to do something' or 'lack / absence of something'. Thus, "he's a winner 'by default' conveys the idea that he's a winner because the other competitors failed to show up or whatever. If you chose the restaurant "by default", it may be because you couldn't come up with other choices or because the other restaurants were too espensive, etc. The point I'm trying to make is that there seems to be an idea of "lacking, problem, defect, failure" in your examples. Can this be applied also to my example? Maybe, because I chose option 'c' for there was something wrong, a 'defect' of some kind in options 'a', 'b' and 'd'.
I'd say it as follows: the process of elimination comes as a result of a defect, a lacking ("by default") in any of the other options.

I'd really like to know if you'd say after a test: "I actually didn't know the right answer. I just chose option 'c' *by default*." Or would you sound kind of "nerdy"? No offense, people.

Thanks a lot!

Mara.

Mara.


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## riglos

Thanks Ron! While I was writing my message you posted yours, so I've just seen it. I see things more clearly now with your example, and I understand I should use "by process of elimination" in cases such as the one I described. Anyway, I'd be glad if you could comment on my post above.

Thanks!

Mara.


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## Ron in LA

Mara,

Someone may well say "I just chose option C by default".  The concept is very similar to "I just chose option C by process of elimination".  Native speakers often use their own language inaccurately.  It would not sound nerdy, it would just sound less intelligent.


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## ampurdan

Ron in LA said:
			
		

> Riglos,
> 
> For your example, "process of elimination" is perfect and "default" is not correct. "Default" means that there are no other alternatives. In your example, there are other alternatives that you eliminated by your knowledge of the subject matter.
> 
> There is no reason to avoid "process of elimination". It is a common expression, fits your need precisely, and is readily understood.


 
I'd rather agree with you Ron, "process of elimination" is closer to the idea of "por descarte" and "by default" conveys the idea of "por defecto" and "predeterminado" as Riglos has said.

Sin embargo, no estoy nada seguro de si la frase "escogí la respuesta por defecto" es incorrecta... Según la RAE sólo se usa en ámbito informático, pero tampoco estoy muy de acuerdo en eso. Hay una extensión de su uso, probablemente en paralelo al inglés.


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## DaleC

riglos said:
			
		

> *1.*
> * "predeterminado/ preestablecido", "por defecto"*
> *2.* *"por defecto" *(also), i.e. "*a falta de una alternativa mejor". *I'm not sure whether in this situation "default" is equivalent to *"por descarte"*, and that's my main doubt!
> 
> Now, I think the situations you described, namely 'winner by default', or, so to speak 'the evening outing situation', have to do with the idea of 'failure to do something' or 'lack / absence of something'.
> 
> Can this be applied also to my example? Maybe, because I chose option 'c' for there was something wrong, a 'defect' of some kind in options 'a', 'b' and 'd'.
> 
> I'd really like to know if you'd say after a test: "I actually didn't know the right answer. I just chose option 'c' *by default*."


 
1. "Predetermined, preestablished". Perfect! It's too bad those aren't the words we use, because the new meaning of 'default' seems to be almost a corruption of the old meaning. 

2. "For lack of a better choice". Again, the exact description for the situations. 

Now, yes, people do say, maybe infrequently, "[after eliminating the other possible answers] I chose 'c' by default". That's half the reason I gave you that answer! Ah, but the other reason is that I was trying to match the construction, 'por descarte' -- and I succeeded. 

But there's a philosophical difference, which I inchoately noticed from the start -- that's what inspired me to mention "how limited" your example was -- but which I couldn't quite put into words. Here it is: the speaker in your example is activethe speaker in my examples is affected (impacted upon = en él se le incide); things happen to the speaker. 

Maybe that doesn't make a difference to the appropriateness of using 'default'. People do say, "We chose restaurant X by default [not knowing if we'd really like it, or even knowing of things we'd dislike]". 

Here's more in regard to your exam example: there is a choice of perspectives, the viewpoint of the test taker and the viewpoint of the chosen answer. "I chose 'c' by [process of] elimination"  (*or* "by default") vs. " 'c' seemed like the best answer by default [all the other choices definitely seemed like the wrong answer]". 

The test taker is very active. The test questions challenge their powers of reasoning and their absorption of the lessons. In contrast, restaurant and movie choices are usually a matter of personal taste and one's available money, so there's usually less mental effort in eliminating choices. So in *these *examples, again you have two choices, "by default" and "by elimination", but *now*, referring to the same parameter of [personal] agency (that's the jargon for agentiveness), we could now object instead to "by elimination". 

Sorry I haven't been able to formulate this economically. 

Regards, 
Dale


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## DaleC

ampurdan said:
			
		

> I'd rather agree with you Ron, "process of elimination" is closer to the idea of "por descarte" and "by default" conveys the idea of "por defecto" and "predeterminado" as Riglos has said.


 
Just a grammar correction. You wrote "I'd rather agree with you". You likely meant "I rather agree with you", which is a learned alternative to "I tend to agree with you". What you said means "I would prefer to agree with you -- the contrary view would be for me an unpleasant truth". That you might feel that way is a real world possibility, but it's highly unlikely you would come out and say so.


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## GiggLiden

DaleC said:
			
		

> 1. "Predetermined, preestablished". Perfect! It's too bad those aren't the words we use, because the new meaning of 'default' seems to be almost a corruption of the old meaning.
> 
> 2. "For lack of a better choice". Again, the exact description for the situations.
> 
> Now, yes, people do say, maybe infrequently, "[after eliminating the other possible answers] I chose 'c' by default". That's half the reason I gave you that answer! Ah, but the other reason is that I was trying to match the construction, 'por descarte' -- and I succeeded.
> 
> But there's a philosophical difference, which I inchoately noticed from the start -- that's what inspired me to mention "how limited" your example was -- but which I couldn't quite put into words. Here it is: the speaker in your example is activethe speaker in my examples is affected (impacted upon = en él se le incide); things happen to the speaker.
> 
> Maybe that doesn't make a difference to the appropriateness of using 'default'. People do say, "We chose restaurant X by default [not knowing if we'd really like it, or even knowing of things we'd dislike]".
> 
> Here's more in regard to your exam example: there is a choice of perspectives, the viewpoint of the test taker and the viewpoint of the chosen answer. "I chose 'c' by [process of] elimination" (*or* "by default") vs. " 'c' seemed like the best answer by default [all the other choices definitely seemed like the wrong answer]".
> 
> The test taker is very active. The test questions challenge their powers of reasoning and their absorption of the lessons. In contrast, restaurant and movie choices are usually a matter of personal taste and one's available money, so there's usually less mental effort in eliminating choices. So in *these *examples, again you have two choices, "by default" and "by elimination", but *now*, referring to the same parameter of [personal] agency (that's the jargon for agentiveness), we could now object instead to "by elimination".
> 
> Sorry I haven't been able to formulate this economically.
> 
> Regards,
> Dale



I am reminded of Madame de Stael's famous quote:
"I'm sorry I wrote you such a long letter. I didn't have the time to write you a short one."


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## ampurdan

DaleC said:
			
		

> Just a grammar correction. You wrote "I'd rather agree with you". You likely meant "I rather agree with you", which is a learned alternative to "I tend to agree with you". What you said means "I would prefer to agree with you -- the contrary view would be for me an unpleasant truth". That you might feel that way is a real world possibility, but it's highly unlikely you would come out and say so.


 
Thank you DaleC, you can't imagine how helpful those corrections are  and I'll never be enough grateful for them. I did confuse both meanings and thought both were expressed with conditional.

However, does "I'd rather agree with you" strongly imply "the contrary view would be an unpleasant truth for me"? Can't it imply "I would prefer to agree with you --- because the other point seems less reasonable" for instance?

Thank you.


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## DaleC

ampurdan said:
			
		

> Thank you DaleC, you can't imagine how helpful those corrections are  and I'll never be enough grateful for them. I did confuse both meanings and thought both were expressed with conditional.
> 
> However, does "I'd rather agree with you" strongly imply "the contrary view would be an unpleasant truth for me"? Can't it imply "I would prefer to agree with you --- because the other point seems less reasonable" for instance?
> 
> Thank you.


 
This brings us back to your old thread, "I wasn't wanted to be understood".  My answer is, no, because for the most part "agreeing" is *involuntary!* Now, let me stop for a moment to distinguish between "agreeing" strictly speaking, which is one's thought process, and announcing one's agreement. 

In the case you have suggested, It's a possibility you'd find the other claim less reasonable. But it would still be perverse cognitively to "decide" to agree with what seems to be the more reasonable claim, and it would be usually be awkward socially to announce you're "deciding to agree" or "refusing to agree". You still would ought to examine the more appealing claim on its merits. 

I think that as a matter of brain function, a nonpsychotic person is only capable of refusing to agree when a subject is unfamiliar or complicated. If it's complicated, then you can refuse to pay attention to arguments for one side or the other, or during discussions you can sabotage your own comprehension by raising phony objections. But again, this presupposes your not having understood the claim. 

There is yet another possibility. The converse of letting somebody explain something and opening yourself to being persuaded, is to agree to, or to wish to agree to, something you don't even quite understand. 

In either case, as a matter of social propriety, you rarely declare your scheming.


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## djkingdanny

By discarding ... could it be possible??


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## aguero

I am only 6 years late for this thread ;-) but would say that it would be more common, in the case of choosing option C in a multiple choice test, to say "I chose it at random" (por azar)


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## Filimer

aguero said:


> I am only 6 years late for this thread ;-) but would say that it would be more common, in the case of choosing option C in a multiple choice test, to say "I chose it at random" (por azar)


It is clear from this thread that "por descarte" is translated as "by process of elimination". This is very different from "at random".


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## aguero

Yes at random is very different and I take your point (I have gone back to look at the thread). I hadn't read it properly. In my defence people often do answer multiple choice questions at random and I'm afraid I ot carried away with that idea.


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## JenniferAnnette

The idea "process of elimination" is known as "deductive reasoning" where you deduce the answer by eliminating what is not the answer. 

By deductive reasoning, I found (or thought or figured) the answer to be c.


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## Filimer

JenniferAnnette said:


> By deductive reasoning, I found (or thought or figured) the answer to be c.



We are attempting to translate "por descarte" into English. "By deductive reasoning" is a good thing to do, but "por descarte" is negative.

Another example: no pudimos ponernos de acuerdo a dónde ir, así que por descarte nos quedamos viendo la televisión.

Here "by process of elimination" is probably wrong, but "by deductive reasoning" has no relationship.


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## aguero

The thing is, I think that context is central here. I agree with the position at the top of the thread that the best general translation is "process of elimination". In the example you give here I would opt for something like:

"We couldn't decide where to go, so ended up just watching the telly".

"...so, with nothing better to do, ended up etc"


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## Filimer

Here I have a real example (taken from a newspaper from Spain).

*P.-* Entonces, ¿cómo decidió ser escultor? 
*R.-* Por puro descarte. Me di cuenta de que no servía para nada más. 

*Q*. Then, how did you decide to become a sculptor?
*R.* Just by elimination. I realized I wasn't good for anything else.

What do you think?


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## aguero

I think that works, but I think we normally say process, even in informal circumstances (though I'm doubting myself now!).

Maybe "It was a process of pure elimination..." or "Just a process of elimination"


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## chileno

I would use "trial and error" if not "process of elimination"


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## Filimer

chileno said:


> I would use "trial and error" if not "process of elimination"


Lo que pasa es que "trial an error" es "prueba y error" y "por descarte" es algo un poco diferente.

Ejemplos: 

1) Para encontrar una bandera con al menos los colores rojo, verde y amarillo, busqué en la Wikipedia los artículos de varios países, y así, por prueba y error encontré lo que quería, al llegar a Etiopía.

2) Me preguntaron que cuál de estas banderas tenía los colores rojo, verde, amarillo y azul: España, Eslovaquia, Eslovenia,  Estonia y Etiopía. Como me sé todas las banderas de Europa, por descarte contesté Etiopía.


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## chileno

Correcto, solo decía...


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