# em/me and dues/dos



## Beobachter

Can somebody explain why, in the Andorran national anthem, the phrase "dels alarbs em deslliurà" is sometimes written as "dels alarbs me deslliurà," and the phrase "entre dues nacions, neutral" is sometimes written as "entre dos nacions, neutral"?


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## Samaruc

Hi Beobachter,

The normative forms are:

dels alarbs *em* deslliurà
entre *dues* nacions, neutral​
As for "em/me", the use of one or another variant has been a little hesitant along the history of the Catalan languange. Before Fabra's standardization, you could find both forms in texts written in Catalan language. The "weak pronouns" in Catalan are little complex and their shape changes depending on their position, you can get more information here.

Some Catalan dialects use just one form for "two": dos. Others have two separate words: "dos" for masculine and "dues" for feminine. I am not sure about this, but maybe the dialect from Andorra had only one word for both genders and the original anthem was written using "dos" instead "dues".

It's just a guess, but I suppose that as the Andorran national anthem was probably written before Fabra's standardization, it had the words "me" and "dos", but then, after the language was standardized, it was adapted to the new official norms.


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## Beobachter

Thanks. Various references state that the anthem was adopted in 1914 and first performed in 1921 (which seems contradictory), and I suppose that is very close to the time of the standardization.

A vocal performance may be found at [add "www"] "andorraantiga.com" (at "/himne1.mp3," starting at 1:43, after the instrumental version is complete). I would appreciate any comments about which variant is used in this performance.


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## Samaruc

I've heard the anthem and they say "me" and "dos" instead of "em" and "dues". The letter is exactly the one you can find in the web you've referred to.

Fabra's standardization became official in Catalonia in 1913, when the Institut d'Estudis Catalans promulgated its orthographic norms (in Valencia, for instance, these norms were officially adopted in 1932, almost 20 years later). So, if the Andorran anthem was adopted in 1914, Fabra's norms were still too recent and the anthem was probably written before these new norms became official.

Salut!


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## XIKA

*me* is only used after the verb (in infinitif): deslliurar-*me *(with *-*!!*!)*
before the verb is possible only EM deslliurà (without -). 

*dos* + male (dos ous = two eggs)
*dues* + female (dues nacions =two nations)


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## News

I've heard the mp3 file you mentioned, and they sing with the "occidental" speaking of Catalan. In Andorra, just like in Lleida (where I lived during my childhood) the speaking of catalan is a little bit different from eastern ("oriental") speaking.

Although is not exactly correct (after Fabra's normalisation) in Lleida we say for example "me fa vergonya..." or "me donaràs aquestes pomes?" in familiar registers. We also say "dos" before female subjects, for example "tinc dos filles". 

Never used in written or formal documents, although.


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## XIKA

News said:


> I've heard the mp3 file you mentioned, and they sing with the "occidental" speaking of Catalan. In Andorra, just like in Lleida (where I lived during my childhood) the speaking of catalan is a little bit different from eastern ("oriental") speaking.
> 
> Although is not exactly correct (after Fabra's normalisation) in Lleida we say for example "me fa vergonya..." or "me donaràs aquestes pomes?" in familiar registers. We also say "dos" before female subjects, for example "tinc dos filles".
> 
> Never used in written or formal documents, although.


 


All that you say is true if you want to speak catalan, but I think it's not correct if you want to write it. 
There is a standard Catalan, written, with his correct norms, and there are so many dialectal catalan, spoked, with them "oral" norms: a person from Lleida, for example, speaks different than me (central Catalonia), and a person from Illes Balears speaks different than a person from Girona. But all the Catalan's speakers would have to write the same Catalan, using the same linguistical norms.  
I'm sorry for my english, I know is really bad.


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## Beobachter

XIKA said:


> But all the Catalan's speakers would have to write the same Catalan, using the same linguistical norms.


 
I understand what you are saying, but the strange thing is that there are at least two official Andorran websites that use the "me" and "dos" version of the lyrics,

....here, at the website of the Consell General Principat d'Andorra : http://www.consellgeneral.ad/micg/w...AC6B3C1256B5A003497CA?Opendocument&idioma=cat

....and here, at the website of "L'Ambassade d'Andorre auprès du Benelux, du Danemark et de la Slovenie": http://www.andorra.be/fr/2.6.htm#2


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## XIKA

Yes, but we'd have to remark that Marfany's lyric is dated from 1921. Catalan is not a dead language, and the ortografic NORMS are so flexible like their speakers. But it's true I'm not sure if Andorran have the same linguistical norms. In catalan standard, _dos_ is not correct before the feminal nouns (is considerated a _castellanisme_, a word with the spanish influence).(sorry, I am only allowed to post URLs to other sites after I have made 30 posts or more):
web Institut d'Estudis Catalans
web Lingüístic de la Universitat Oberta de Catalunya


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## betulina

As far as I know, _dos_ is "invariable" in some dialects, so they say "dos" both in masculine and feminine, and it is correct for them. They haven't got "dues". It is not correct for those dialects which do have "dues". We can see it in the dictionary: dos -in the first line it says "dial. inv." -which means "dialectal, invariable". It is accepted in standard Catalan, as it is compiled of all its dialects and no form prevails over the others.

On the other hand, I agree that this anthem is old, and it is reasonable that it has old forms.

Salut!


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## Beobachter

The Mission of Andorra to the United Nations (which also serves as the Embassy of Andorra to the United States & Canada) has today confirmed to me that the version of the lyrics using "me" and "dos" is in fact the version that is actually used.


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