# 寶音, 寶綾



## deadinsect

hey guys. my mother and her sister were born in Singapore but left a long time ago, and no elderly relatives remain there.

recently we found some old papers with their Chinese names on (they never hardly knew them) and they are really interested to know the meaning / sense of them.
my mother is 李寶音  and her sister is 李寶綾

we have looked up the characters as:

寶 as precious/tresure/jewel
綾 as silk / damask
音 as sound

but I was hoping that people here might be able to put a little more colour to the picture... for example I don't really know what is the associated imagery or suggestion of the characters .... ? or the general sense of the names?

any help is very appreciated.
thanks, Anthony


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## corner1912

I am curious about these names too. I thought maybe they have a derivation but I didn't find anything.

“李寶音” and “李寶綾” are very traditional but also tasteful names; they sound like the kind of name (can I say "the kind of names" here?) that comes(if I can say "the kind of names" here, should I use come or comes? sorry) from an rich or educated family in southern China.


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## Skatinginbc

寶音 (literally "precious sound" in Chinese) is either (1) a customary albeit erroneous translation in Buddhist texts (e.g., 《大方廣佛華嚴經》阿僧祇寶音; 《現在賢劫千佛名經》南無寶音佛) for Sanskrit _ratnāvabhāsa_ 'the light of jewels' (= _ratna_ 'jewel, gem' + _avabhāsa_ 'splendour, lustre, light') where 音 'sound' is taken erroneously for a derivation from the Sanskrit root √bhāṣ- 'sound' (Sanskrit _bhāṣā_ 'speech') instead of from √bhās- 'shine', or (2) a customary transliteration for Mongolian _buyan_ 'fortune' (e.g., 阿魯特·寶音, name of an empress of the Qing Dynasty).

寶綾 (literally "precious sash" in Chinese) refers to the red protective sash (混天綾) around the waist and shoulders of Nezha (哪吒), a protection deity in Chinese folk religion.

When “寶音” and “寶綾” come in tandem (e.g., as names of two daughters in a family), a strong religious sense arises.  In this case, “寶” no longer means "precious" (珍貴的, e.g., 寶刀, 寶劍) but "sacred" instead (《國語辭典》稱君主或神、道、佛有關事物, e.g., 寶位, 寶符, 寶塔, 寶剎).   So, 寶音 (similar to the Christian term 福音 'gospel') means "the gospel or sacred sound of a god", and “寶綾” "the sacred sash of a god".


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## NewAmerica

Both names *寶音, 寶綾 *strongly suggest their root in Buddhism. Take a look at the attached picture of the Bodhisattva (who is extremely famous in China known for her role as a saver). Her voice is called *寶音 (Holy Sound) *and the sash she wears around her waist is called 寶綾 (Holy Sash).


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## deadinsect

hey guys, thank you very much the the great answers. it is so nice to have a context for the names. my mum says the relatives would have gone to the local temple to get the names, so it makes sense. And what a beautiful pair of names, the aspects of Kwan yin (is that Kwan Yin?)

thank you.

@corner1912 - you would say "they sound like the kind of names that come from a..."
or 
"they sound like the kind of names that *would* come from a..." --  sounds more England-English... we like to use the 'would' and 'should' a lot
source: native English (London, England)


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## corner1912

That's great. Thank you deadinsect!


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## NewAmerica

Yes, Guan Yin (Kwan Yin), the symbol of compassion and wisdom in Buddhism.


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## Natasha-Libra

I think it had nothing to do with religion ,for many families had a tradition that put  a spectic word in  kids' names while parents named their kids,
we called it "字辈“. For example : the name of three brothers is 长富 长贵 长乐 ，”长“ was   the spectic word , we called it"字辈”，it is “长字辈”，so “宝” was  a "字辈“，and your mother's female cousin（paternal line） maybe had the same word in their names .宝 means precious things, it was a good hanzi with best wishes. 音 and 绫 was  a  very common name for girls , there was a famous  author  who was called 林海音 ，maybe your grandparents wish your mother  had a nice voice , and wish your aunt had a pretty face .


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## retrogradedwithwind

Those two names strongly suggest your mother came from a wealthy  and well-educated family but not necessarily a religious one. Take 红楼梦 as an example, 贾宝玉 薛宝钗 薛宝琴 has a similar feature.


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## Skatinginbc

"Sounds of the sea (waves)" (海音) easily makes sense, whereas "sounds of the jewel" (寶音) comes across as an unusual notion.  

"Jade" (玉) in "precious jade" (寶玉), "hairpin" (钗) in "precious hairpin" (寶钗), and "zither" (琴) in "precious zither" (寶琴) are all tangible, whereas "sound" (音) in 寶音 is intangible.   When 寶 + an intangible object or an abstract notion (e.g., 寶號 = 對他人商店店號的敬稱 or 對神明名號的敬稱; 寶相 = 佛、菩薩的莊嚴法相), it no longer means "precious" but instead conveys a sense of reverence (敬), especially for the gods (神明、佛、菩薩).


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## retrogradedwithwind

I don't think we could persuade each other according to so little information. We need more to enhance our views.


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## Natasha-Libra

I don't  agree with you  ,the reasons were as follows:
First point,  by  your logic, 宝+ abstract notion means a sense of reverence , so，宝+conrete notion means “precious” ， 绫 is silk, silk is conrete notion ， 宝音and 宝绫 were sisiters, most parents won't  named their kid by the same hanzi with different  meaning
Second point ,  in  most situation , a name with stong religious meaning  is a ”法号“，most parents won't named their children by "法号”，for "法号" was different from worldly name .
Third point , 贾宝玉 薛宝钗  were characters in  Dream of the Red Chamber , another character who named “元春”  ，  元 means  start ，and also had religious meaning ,just like "元始天尊“ ，but the reason for the name ”元春“ was the lady born in early spring ， socalled  the start of spring.


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## Skatinginbc

Natasha-Libra said:


> by  your logic, 宝+ abstract notion means a sense of reverence , so，宝+conrete notion means “precious”


寶 followed by a tangible object _could_ mean "precious" (e.g., 寶刀).  I did not say it _always_ means "precious" (e.g., 寶塔).


Natasha-Libra said:


> 宝音and 宝绫 were sisiters, most parents won't  named their kid by the same hanzi with different  meaning


Exactly.  That's why 寶 in 寶綾 means "sacred, holy" when it comes in tandem with “寶音”, which is a Buddhist term (e.g., 寶音佛).  If the name of 寶綾's sister is 寶钗 or 寶琴 instead of 寶音, that would be a different story.


Natasha-Libra said:


> a name with stong religious meaning  is a ”法号“，most parents won't named their children by "法号”，for "法号" was different from worldly name . .


”法輪" is obviously a Buddhist term, and you can find people actually called 李法輪 by doing  a google search.


Natasha-Libra said:


> another character who named “元春”  ，  元 means  start ，and also had religious meaning ,just like "元始天尊“ ，but the reason for the name ”元春“ was the lady born in early spring ， socalled  the start of spring.


So what?  Obviously it depends on the context (i.e., the whole phrase), not the character 元 or 寶 alone.  ”元春“ as a phrase is not a religious term, but “寶音” is (e.g., 《大方廣佛華嚴經》阿僧祇寶音; 《現在賢劫千佛名經》南無寶音佛).


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## Natasha-Libra

sir ，there was  no different story ,  most of the time , parents named their kids with the same hanzi which had the same meaning
宝钗 宝琴 were sisters（paternal line），宝was "字辈”， 元春 had three sisters who named  迎春 惜春 探春 ,the meaning of 春  only was spring
and maybe 宝音 was a Buddhist term ,but ,of course , 宝音   could be found from different sources ,e.g 罗浮梦雨铢衣凉，宝音不断南云长  （this was a poem ）


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## Skatinginbc

Natasha-Libra said:


> 宝音   could be found from different sources ,e.g 罗浮梦雨铢衣凉，宝音不断南云长  （this was a poem ）


You failed to provide an example in which 宝 in 宝音 does not refer to 神、道、佛有關事物。The whole poem is full of religious references (especially of Taoism or folk religions), from the very beginning (i.e., 琼妃, 比喻仙女）, to the very end (i.e., 娥月, 引嫦娥得仙奔月的典故).  Even the phrase  铢衣 (= 神仙穿的衣服) immediately preceding 宝音 has religious connotations as well.

The poem:
琼妃南驭瑶台鹤，小驻霞旌飞素阁。天风吹坠步虚声，散布人间诧灵作。梅花海里吟香云，咳珠唾玉何缤纷？瑶天鹤去愁不返，五色蝶化留仙裙。海山仙人念灵侣，手抚瑶华镌剩语。碧桃花落青鸾空，展卷频呼奈何许。罗浮梦雨铢衣凉，宝音不断南云长。愿携香句洞天诵，四百四峰娥月光。


Natasha-Libra said:


> most of the time , parents named their kids with the same hanzi which had the same meaning


Exactly.  The 寶 in 李寶綾 must mean the same as the one in  李寶音.  That's why 寶 in 李寶綾 must refer to 神、道、佛有關事物 (given that her sister's name is  李寶音, in which 寶 means "sacred, holy").

To sum up,
If 寶 + tangible  (e.g., 綾), then 寶 = (1) 珍貴的 "precious", (2) 稱君主或神、道、佛有關事物 "sacred, holy", or (3) 敬稱 "respectable, honorable, admirable"
If 寶 + intangible  (e.g., 音), then 寶 = 稱君主或神、道、佛有關事物 "sacred, holy", or 敬稱 "respectable, honorable, admirable".
Because 寶 in 李寶綾 = 寶 in 李寶音 and 寶音 has religious connotations, 寶 must mean "sacred, holy" in 李寶綾 and 李寶音.


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## Natasha-Libra

I means 宝音 not only  was a Buddhist term ,but  others ,maybe it came from Taoism, maybe it was part of the poem ,
and it would be welcome if you can told me  why their parents named their danghters with the same hanzi which had different meaning，it  was illogical，for most of the time ,if a sisters or brothers had the same hanzi in their names ,the names came in pairs ,for they were "同辈人” . it was traditional culture, and "字辈“had special meaning , 字辈even composed a poem 
e. g 令德维垂佑，钦绍念显扬 
 the poem was consist of 字辈 of ten generations,one hanzi a generation .


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## Skatinginbc

Natasha-Libra said:


> why their parents named their danghters with the same hanzi which had different meaning，it  was illogical，for most of the time ,if a sisters or brothers had the same hanzi in their names ,the names came in pairs ,for they were "同辈人” .


I don't get it.   I have repeated so many times that 寶 "sacred, divine" in 李寶綾 "sacred/divine sash" = 寶 "sacred, divine" in 李寶音 "sacred/divine sound", in which 寶 "sacred, divine"  refers to 神、道、佛有關事物.  I don't understand why you keep saying they have different meanings.


Natasha-Libra said:


> I means 宝音 not only  was a Buddhist term ,but  others ,maybe it came from Taoism, maybe it was part of the poem


As I stated in Post #3, 寶音 was originally a customary translation in Buddhist texts for Sanskrit _ratnāvabhāsa_ 'the light of jewels'. Later the term was adopted by Taoists and other folks to describe the sacred/divine sound or voice of a deity or immortal. No matter it is used in a religious text or in a poem, it refers to 神、道、佛有關事物 and can be translated into English as "sacred, divine". Accordingly, I concluded in Post #3:


Skatinginbc said:


> When “寶音” and “寶綾” come in tandem (e.g., as names of two daughters in a family), a strong religious sense arises.  In this case, “寶” no longer means "precious" (珍貴的, e.g., 寶刀, 寶劍) but "sacred" instead (《國語辭典》稱君主或神、道、佛有關事物, e.g., 寶位, 寶符, 寶塔, 寶剎).   So, 寶音 (similar to the Christian term 福音 'gospel') means "the gospel or sacred sound of a god", and “寶綾” "the sacred sash of a god".


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## Natasha-Libra

so ,you means the meaning of 宝绫 was sacred silk?  宝绫 was also a Buddhist term? I don't think so ,in that case the meaning of 宝玉 was sacrd jade ，but it  doesn't.
ps： you said  the term（宝音） was adopted by Taoists  ,although Taoists  was set up in the late of Eastern Han Dynasty which was later than Buddhist ,but  the granddaddy  Lao Zi  was contemporaries with Shakyamuni,  so the "adopt” was  controversial.


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## NewAmerica

The consistency in Skating's views is obvious.

The two gentlemen, Laozi and Shakyamuni, were researchers in ancient times. A concept like  “寶音”  was the result of the religionization of their ideas rather than their own ideas. This process of religionization occurred much later, long after the two gentlemen had passed away.


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## Skatinginbc

Examples of 寶綾 "sacred/divine sash" in which 寶 refers to 神、道、佛有關事物:
《卍山禅师住东林寺语录.诣香椎宫作》聪明正直镇灵场, 赫赫神风威武扬, 杉织宝绫思盛服, 椎悬玉骨掬余香。
《狐如玉》她不敢怠慢，赶忙寻了那些死去修士的绳类、宝绫类法宝将它捆住。
《逍遥小散仙》不敢再有片刻耽搁，运转天华真元，灵注宝绫, 气贯仙剑。
《哪吒鬧東海歌》哪吒寶綾棄落海，水底下面滾起來，龍王公殿強卜敗，親像山頂做風颱。


Natasha-Libra said:


> you said  the term（宝音） was adopted by Taoists  ,although Taoists  was set up in the late of Eastern Han Dynasty which was later than Buddhist ,but  the granddaddy  Lao Zi  was contemporaries with Shakyamuni,  so the "adopt” was  controversial.


I said the term, not the religion, was later adopted by the Taoists.  If I say the Chinese expression 浪漫 was adopted from English, are you going to argue that the "adoption" (borrowing) is controversial because the Chinese characters were created long before the existence of English alphabets?


Natasha-Libra said:


> you means the meaning of 宝绫 was sacred silk?


No.  Sash (ribbon) ≠ silk (fabric).  All the examples of 宝绫 I quoted above refer to "sash" (織品), not "silk" (織料).


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## Natasha-Libra

哪吒 狐仙 was Taoist figures but  you told me 宝音 宝绫 was Buddhist term in the begining ,and two examples of your came from modern novel when their parents named kids many years ago,  the novels  ~~especially逍遥小散仙,  it seems too  informal which as a reference.
I never understood  why you still thought of the name as a phrase which  appeared in some Buddhist books,  for the meaning not only came from religion ,but ancient poem,family tradition, environment ,even transliteration.
of course  ,different people had different opinions.
It seems I can't convince you ,just like you can't convince me ,
but it was a interesting discussion, to my mind
thanks for your attention ,see you


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## Skatinginbc

Natasha-Libra said:


> I never understood...


Because you kept putting words in my mouth, even in your last post.


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