# حرف امتناع -  لو



## aurelien.demarest

Hi guys,

I need the help of the community because I am getting confused with one particle and unfortunately I don't find a lot of sources about that topic with the English translation...
I don't get well the usage of حَرْفُ امتناعٍ in MSA. I know of course it means "if" which is used then for a conditional sentence however I am getting confused with the usage.
First of all what is the correct translation of حَرْفُ امتناعٍ? Because in this thread Cherine is talking about highly improbably, or even impossible while if you check on the dictionary it seems that it means "abstention" which doesn't mean the same thing. 

Also as far as I know we can use لو with a verb in the past tense (ماضي) or a verb in the present tense (المضارع) or a noun (اسم). Is there any meaning's difference between each other?

Last but not least, is it correct to translate those sentence with the past conditional in English?
Like لو اجلو الكرامة َ أردتَ لـَجاهدْتَ من أجلها is it correct to translate it by "if you wanted the dignity you had to strive it".

Thanks in advance
Aurélien


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## analeeh

If I remember correctly حرف امتناع means basically 'hypothetical/counterfactual particle' - you won't do what follows (you'll امتنع from doing it). لو is most commonly either hypothetical-but-possible (English past) or hypothetical-and-now-impossible (English past perfect).

As for لو اجلو الكرامة َ أردتَ لـَجاهدْتَ من أجلها, I can't parse it, but 'if you wanted *dignity* you had to strive *for* it' is not the kind of conditional that is usually introduced by لو although it is a correct English formation. The sort of formulation we use لو for is more like 'If you *had wanted* the cake you *would** have* made it clear', or 'if you were to go I would be very surprised' - the first is hypothetical past, the second is hypothetical present.


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## Mahaodeh

aurelien.demarest said:


> Like لو اجلو الكرامة َ أردتَ لـَجاهدْتَ من أجلها



Can you give more context on this because the sentence does not seem to be quite correct to me, unless I'm missing the context.


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## aurelien.demarest

Please check this article " لو الكرامة َ أردتَ لـَجاهدْتَ من أجلها"

I just realized that in my first post I wrote it in the wrong way sorry..


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## analeeh

You added an extra word, and that sentence is supposed to demonstrate the unusual case of لو coming before a noun and is probably not a very good neutral example. But if we change it to

لو أردتَ الكرامة َ لـَجاهدْتَ من أجلها

Then it becomes very ordinary - and could be translated as 'if you had wanted dignity then you would have struggled for it'.

Personally I would avoid reading long posts by grammarians on Arabic grammar in Arabic until you've got the basics down - these grammarians tend to discuss hypothetical cases provided for by the grammatical tradition which often are not much used or might even be read as ungrammatical, and use difficult jargon.


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## aurelien.demarest

Hi Analeeh, first of all thank you for your help. 



analeeh said:


> لو is most commonly either hypothetical-but-possible (English past) or hypothetical-and-now-impossible (English past perfect).



I don't get very well that explanation. Could you explain or may be give examples?



analeeh said:


> Personally I would avoid reading long posts by grammarians on Arabic grammar in Arabic until you've got the basics down - these grammarians tend to discuss hypothetical cases provided for by the grammatical tradition which often are not much used or might even be read as ungrammatical, and use difficult jargon.



I agree with you Analeeh. To be honest my goal is to understand the usage of لو (with a noun, the present tense and past tense). Another thing I wanted to clarify was the translation or at least the _best meaning_ because I saw different translations which created a big confusion for me. 

Aurélien


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## analeeh

In English we have two hypothetical conditionals, both of which are formed in MSA (often identically with the meaning distinguished by context) with لو.

'If he wanted cheese, he would buy it.' = this means that hypothetically, in an imagined situation in the present, he _could_ buy it, but he _doesn't_ want it. I'm pretty sure this lines up with _s'il voulait... il pourrait_ in French.

'If he _had_ wanted cheese, he _would have_ bought it.' = This is also hypothetical, but the hypothetical situation is in the past, so we use the past perfect form of the verb. Again I'm pretty sure this lines up with _s'il avait voulu... il aurait peut... _so the same construction.

The English sentence you gave, however, was a correct English conditional of a different type: 'If you wanted dignity you had to strive for it'. This is not hypothetical - it's a past-tense equivalent of 'if you want dignity you have to strive for it'. This is a kind of conditional usually formed with اذا, not لو.


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## Mahaodeh

aurelien.demarest said:


> " لو الكرامة َ أردتَ لـَجاهدْتَ من أجلها"



OK, now it makes sense


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## aurelien.demarest

Thanks guys for your help it is clearer now 

Just one last thing, in a source quoted upper in this thread (The Conditional) there's an explanation about لو with the present tense. They are translating it by "if only" or "would that such and such were so" (which I personally don't understand). Is it correct as far as you know?

If so are the following sentences correct:
لَوْ يُطِيعُكُمْ فِي كَثِيرٍ مِّنَ الْأَمْرِ لَعَنِتُّمْ (from the Coran) : if only he obeyed you in many things, you would have commit sins
لو تطعمه لن يشكرك : if only you fed him, he wouldn't have thank you

I wrote those sentences and I think it matches with the following statement Analeeh wrote:


analeeh said:


> 'If he wanted cheese, he would buy it.' = this means that hypothetically, in an imagined situation in the present, he _could_ buy it, but he _doesn't_ want it. I'm pretty sure this lines up with _s'il voulait... il pourrait_ in French.



ps: @analeeh it is written in French _il aurait pu
_
Aurélien


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## cherine

aurelien.demarest said:


> If so are the following sentences correct:
> لَوْ يُطِيعُكُمْ فِي كَثِيرٍ مِّنَ الْأَمْرِ لَعَنِتُّمْ (from the Coran) : if only he obeyed you in many things, you would have commit sins


I think you meant to ask about the translations not the sentences themselves. If so, then you can verify this one with any of the available translations of the Qur'an.


> لو تطعمه لن يشكرك : if only you fed him, he wouldn't have thank you


No, the sentence is not in the past. It means: if you feed him, he won't thank you. (Si tu le nourris il ne te remerciera pas).


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## aurelien.demarest

Thank you Cherine


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## elroy

cherine said:


> It means: if you feed him, he won't thank you. (Si tu le nourris il ne te remerciera pas).


 I understand it to mean "Even if you fed / were to feed him, he (still) would not thank you."


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## cherine

Where did you get the "even if" part? In Arabic, I would expect حتى لو أطعمته, but we don't have it.


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## elroy

I think it’s implicit.  I don’t know how to explain it, but I hear a difference between لو تطعمه لن يشكرك and إذا أطعمته فلن يشكرك.  The latter sounds neutral but the former does not.

Also, the “even if” reading is more plausible, since the normal expectation would be that you _would_ thank someone who feeds you.

I know Egyptian Arabic uses لو as a neutral “if” whereas Palestinian Arabic does not, so maybe one of us is being influenced by their dialect?  It would be interesting to hear from other native speakers.


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## 𒍝𒊑𒈾 𒂵𒉿𒀉

But in the Qur'anic ayah وَلَوْ شِئْنَا لَبَعَثْنَا فِي كُلِّ قَرْيَةٍ نَذِيرًا it clearly is not a حرف امتناع. If it is then it means that God did not send a warner to every city (but God did!)


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## Mahaodeh

Actually it is. This aya is talking about Islam and not about any previous messages.


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## Ali Smith

Why does the Qur'an say the following in another place?

إِنَّا أَرْسَلْنَاكَ بِالْحَقِّ بَشِيرًا وَنَذِيرًا ۚ وَإِن مِّنْ أُمَّةٍ إِلَّا خَلَا فِيهَا نَذِيرٌ
(فاطر:24)


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## Romeel

Ali Smith said:


> Why does the Qur'an say the following in another place?
> 
> إِنَّا أَرْسَلْنَاكَ بِالْحَقِّ بَشِيرًا وَنَذِيرًا ۚ وَإِن مِّنْ أُمَّةٍ إِلَّا خَلَا فِيهَا نَذِيرٌ
> (فاطر:24)


هنا قال الأمة وهناك قال القرية
الأمة ليست مثل القرية


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