# Reminding the forum rules



## Revontuli

Dear friends,

I can't help wondering what others think about this issue.

Time to time, I find myself reminding other foreros about the WRF rules when necessary. I might sound bossy while doing that, but still, in my opinion, every member of this forum must help others, especially new friends, reminding the rules as much as possible. I don't think it must be moderators' responsibility only.

If a new friend wants us to translate a whole sentence, for example, wouldn't it be better to kindly remind the rule rather than answering?

Please share your opinions.

Thank you,
Revi


----------



## Loob

Interesting question, Revontuli.

The "reply to thread" screen enjoins us to "Suggest, politely, to newbies that they read the forum rules and forum stickies before posting".

And yet I have seen one mod in C&S suggesting that doing so would be "pseudo-modding" and counter-productive.

I'll be very interested to see the responses to your question


----------



## Ynez

I personally prefer not to be expected to do so, but some people are patient enough and have good manners to do it. I think their intention (and what they do) is to help.


When I see a message that is not following the rules (in a different language, for instance), I reply if I feel like replying, being aware that it will be moved or deleted later.


----------



## Chaska Ñawi

The easiest answer is, "It depends". 

Obviously, it's important to report all these posts using that red triangle.  This brings them to our attention, and allows us to send a message welcoming that person and explaining the rules more clearly.  Almost all of the people who don't follow the rules are new to the forum, so we take more time and care with these messages.

Once such a thread has been reported, posting to explain the rules sometimes is very useful because it reminds _other _new members not to jump in and offer full translations, deep editing, etc.  If the post is welcoming in tone and offers at least some help, I leave it in for at least a while.

I mercilessly delete posts that make no attempt to welcome or help a newby, and/or are bossy, agressive, or rude.  This falls under the definition of "pseudo-modding", and is unhelpful, unwelcoming, and violates the spirit of collegiality that we strive for in this forum.

Posting in the wrong forum:  If a newby posts in the wrong forum, it is more useful if you restrain your instinct to rush to assist .... and just report it.  

Obviously, the different forums (and individual moderators, for that matter) have slightly different preferences and styles of moderation.

cheers


----------



## Revontuli

Thank you all for the answers.

As you said, Chaska Ñawi, I used to prefer reporting such threads. But sometimes, there are already others who have replied the question. I'd expect them first to welcome the new forero and then kindly remind the rule. A mod cannot stay here all day long to watch every thread. When they're available and see such a post, they take action and the reason's explained. I remember that in X forum, a forero asked for help for a full translation and his post was deleted. But later, another forero asked the same and his thread wasn't deleted until the mod was here, but his question was already answered. The first forero, naturally, might find it curious and unjust.

I never do it in a bossy way, nor forget reminding my real intention, which is to help. But when I'm the only one, it feels strange.

Cheers,
Revi


----------



## ampurdan

There is a specific rule about this topic:



> *12. Report Problems*
> Tell moderators about problematic posts, rule violations, or anything else you think needs moderator attention by clicking on the report-a-post icon
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> in the top right corner of each post. Please, do not react to rule violations: just report them. You may ask politely for context if it is needed for a suitable reply, and you may kindly and politely correct a fellow member's deviations from standard language in a post that otherwise addresses the thread topic.



The raisons d'être of this rule are: 

1/ Threads should not have discussion of anything but just the topic of the thread. Telling other members about the rules in public can change the subject of the thread or, worse, cause a quarrel (even when done politely, let's not forget that some people can't stand the slightest insinuation that they might have done something that it's not 100% what they were supposed to do).

2/ Some members who are willing to help newbies are not very well acquainted with the rules or have wrong ideas about it.

Of course, as ChaskaÑawi has said, if you are 100% sure about how a rule is applied here and you want to tell politely a newbie about it, go on. If you are not that sure, it's better to report and report it anyway, unless it's something that really deserves no attention.

Threads posted in wrong places should be always reported.


----------



## Hakro

Hi Revontuli, I'm pleased to meet you again,

It's not only the newbies who make mistakes:

Recently I was warned by antoher forero (thanks Jancho!) for giving an "illegal" link and I could edit my post before the moderators would have deleted it.


----------



## Revontuli

Hei, Hakro It's so nice to see you as well.

It's true that we all make mistakes, naturally. We should appreciate everyone who kindly warn us. Whatever we do here is to help each other. I especially talked about new foreros because this is what I see in that X forum. 

But I've also realized that: Some of the posts there are sent because the forero gets an e-mail from a friend, and there's some sentence in that X language, but as he seemingly has no idea about it, he comes and asks for translation. I especially want to ask you since I see similar posts for Finnish. What do you do then? I don't know, maybe it's different with that X language I mention and there are less sources...

Revontuli


----------



## Hakro

Dear Revontuli,

I have answered several questions about Finnish by someone who (possibly) might a moderator of another forum where some Finnish kids use slang and he/she can't understand it although he/she knows a lot of Finnish.

As you said, we're here to help each other.


----------



## Loob

ampurdan said:


> Telling other members about the rules in public can change the subject of the thread or, worse, cause a quarrel


I fully understand this point.  But it's in conflict with the advice given to members in the "reply to thread" screen.

Should that advice be changed?


----------



## Revontuli

Loob said:


> I fully understand this point.  But it's in conflict with the advice given to members in the "reply to thread" screen.
> 
> Should that advice be changed?



I agree with you, Loob. But I don't think telling a newbie about the forum rules will cause arguments or change the course of the topic. At least, I've never seen.


----------



## danielfranco

Well, I'm just plain rude and uncouth a lot of the time. So instead of reminding people of the rules—since I know I will not be gentle—I use the red triangle of thread doom.

Actually, sometimes I log in just so that I can find threads that scream "red triangle, red triangle!" And I push it. A lot.

However, on the rare event that I'm feeling afable and nice, I try gentle reminders, especially with the n00bs with single-digit post counts.
D


----------



## Revontuli

Hello DanielF,

Thank you for joining in.

Well, as I said before, I used to prefer red triangle as well. But some of the posts were deleted just on time but some were left and already answered. I just find it unjust. 

Secondly, I've realized that some forums work more like translation services than others. Sometimes the foreros ask so appalling things... I'm going to give that example again, they receive an e-mail with an expression etc in X language, sometimes really rude ones, they just come up and ask about it... I really don't know what to do at that moment, should I remind the rule? Then he'd probably say he had to do it. I also wonder if those foreros ever use WRF apart from asking such things...

Yesterday, rather than politely reminding, I used the triangle and reported those threads suggesting what should be done.

I feel like a judge although I believe I'm doing the right thing.

Revontuli


----------



## Ynez

We are many people here, Revontuly, so now and then we can see it as a big mess. But we should not worry too much, danielfranco is here pushing the red triangle once and again!


----------



## danielfranco

[Message]

Red triangle button in post #14 has been pushed too many times. Stop it, already!

[End of message]



Revontuli,
I really believe that it is easier for the actual mods to keep things tidy if we all resort to the red triangle of thread doom rather than engaging in "rules refresher" posts. I have seen in my long career here at the WRF's how easy things can get out of hand when a forero starts quoting rules at another forero. Although people may have the very best intentions at heart, some other people will take offense for the slightest things.
It can get ugly.

Is all, I mean to say.
D


----------



## Vanda

danielfranco said:


> I really believe that it is easier for the actual mods to keep things tidy if we all resort to the red triangle of thread doom rather than engaging in "rules refresher" posts. I have seen in my long career here at the WRF's how easy things can get out of hand when a forero starts quoting rules at another forero. Although people may have the very best intentions at heart, some other people will take offense for the slightest things.
> It can get ugly.
> 
> Is all, I mean to say.
> D



I couldn't say it better! As a moderator once in a while I have to deal with angry foreros (mostly newbies) complaining because another forero has tried to help him by quoting the rules. Then I have double work trying to fix things.


----------



## Loob

So is it just me that finds this advice in the "reply to post screen" misleading?


> - Suggest, politely, to newbies that they read the forum rules and forum stickies before posting.


----------



## Revontuli

No Loob, you're not the only one. I believe it must be changed to: "Please do not remind the forum rules to newbies, but let the mods do it by reporting the thread".

You're right, DanielF and Vanda. No matter how much I get tempted just like LoobD), it seems better to use the red triangle "more".

I guess I expect too much by imagining every forero is aware of my real intention.

So, rush the triangle(when necessary)!

Revontuli


----------



## Ynez

Vanda said:


> I couldn't say it better! As a moderator once in a while I have to deal with angry foreros (mostly newbies) complaining because another forero has tried to help him by quoting the rules. Then I have double work trying to fix things.



Then, you could tell the newbies nobody would have needed to remind them of the rules if they had read them. 

I don't find that so difficult, is it?


----------



## Revontuli

Ynez said:


> Then, you could tell the newbies nobody would have needed to remind them of the rules if they had read them.
> 
> I don't find that so difficult, is it?



Some of the newbies seem to overreact even to such polite suggestions. God knows what would happen if a mod told that, Ynez.

It's difficult to understand, though. If there are rules, that's for everyone. For example, even in public places, we politely warn those who break the rules. Why should we turn a blind eye to that? Just as it's here.

But ok, the red triangle...


----------



## Ynez

Revontuli said:


> Some of the newbies seem to overreact even to such polite suggestions. God knows what would happen if a mod told that, Ynez.



I know, that's why I said what I said.  I like newbies very much and I feel pity for the ones lost, but if some is just silly...that's all. A responsible forero should not be blamed because of a crying silly one.


----------



## Vanda

You are right, Ynez, it is not difficult, but sometimes the "disaster" has already happened when we have to interfere. Very recently we had a case of a newbie that responded so badly to a well intended forero reminding him of the rules that he called us all in the forum really bad names and when I tried to reason with him, privately, he simply repeated the offence and went away for good. (Well, there are lost cases, indeed! ).
For not so mild cases sometimes we have to exchange more than a couple of PMs trying to easy down the offended and to explain the forum dynamics. For me, no problem, I am in a small forum but I think about the bigger forums' mods who have to deal with... how many cases? 
I don't mean to say a forero should not remind a newbie of the rules, but the way it is done might be problematic. The borderline is thin. Anyway, I am not complaining! My intention was simply to illustrate what might help in some cases as Daniel have put it.


----------



## Ynez

Vanda, I perfectly understand that mods have to deal with situations that are not really of their interest at all, and I truly appreciate your efforts. It was just that point in particular, and that case you relate now...if he left, let him go!


----------



## Revontuli

Vanda said:


> You are right, Ynez, it is not difficult, but sometimes the "disaster" has already happened when we have to interfere. Very recently we had a case of a newbie that responded so badly to a well intended forero reminding him of the rules that he called us all in the forum really bad names and when I tried to reason with him, privately, he simply repeated the offence and went away for good. (Well, there are lost cases, indeed! ).
> For not so mild cases sometimes we have to exchange more than a couple of PMs trying to easy down the offended and to explain the forum dynamics. For me, no problem, I am in a small forum but I think about the bigger forums' mods who have to deal with... how many cases?
> I don't mean to say a forero should not remind a newbie of the rules, but the way it is done might be problematic. The borderline is thin. Anyway, I am not complaining! My intention was simply to illustrate what might help in some cases as Daniel have put it.



You're right, Vanda. People are people, everywhere. Thank God I've never got such reactions so far, nor seen it happen in any forum yet. Thank you for sharing with us. We must be ready for anything.


----------



## ajo fresco

danielfranco said:


> Actually, sometimes I log in just so that I can find threads that scream "red triangle, red triangle!" And I push it. A lot.


 
It looks like Señor Franco and I have something in common.  
I, too, have logged in many times just to go on "red triangle patrol."

I've been compiling some data for my own curiosity. I've been keeping a list of all the posts I've reported since the end of last year, just to see how many have been modified or deleted, and how quickly they were dealt with. 

I'm happy to report that with very few exceptions, they were dealt with in a very timely manner -- sometimes the same day or by the next day or two. It makes me appreciate the mods' hard work even more. 

I've also received PMs from some of them thanking me for reporting these posts. 

The only posts on my list that remained untouched were in forums that have only one or two (very overworked, I imagine) mods.

So... I'm very comfortable using that red triangle, and I encourage anyone who has doubts about its effectiveness to give it a try. I've proven to my skeptical self that the system works very well  (and I guess I finally understand the rules well enough to know which posts to report ).

Ajo Fresco


----------



## ampurdan

Loob:

I agree that the message in the "reply to thread" screen might be misleading, although it is not necessarily contradictory with rule #12.



> *12. Report Problems*
> Tell moderators about problematic posts, rule violations, or anything else you think needs moderator attention by clicking on the report-a-post icon http://forum.wordreference.com/image...ons/report.gif in the top right corner of each post. Please, do not react to rule violations: just report them. You may ask politely for context if it is needed for a suitable reply, and you may kindly and politely correct a fellow member's deviations from standard language in a post that otherwise addresses the thread topic.





> Suggest, politely, to newbies that they read the forum rules and forum stickies before posting.



However, I do think that it would be preferable that it said something like:



> Suggest, politely, to newbies that they read the forum rules and forum stickies about the *need of context and use of standard language forms* before posting.



Otherwise, a sentence like "hey, you should use a proper title" loses sense once a mod has edited the title. "Hey, read the rules about copyright!" can be misleading once a mod has shortened a poem to 4 lines, etc.

A proofreading request (not allowed in many forums) or any other question which is out of the scope of the forums and which therefore, mods cannot make valid by their action receives more attention from other users (and takes attention away from valid questions) when someone posts in that thread, even if it is just to say: "read the forum rules".

In all these cases, it is better just to report and let the mods work.


----------



## Loob

Thanks, ampurdan. I understand the logic of your alternative wording; the problem, for me, is that there would then be a degree of inconsistency between that advice and the first piece of advice on the "reply to thread" screen: 





> Do not reply to threads with no context. Report them
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> to moderators.


I guess the  the simplest solution would be to remove all the advice from the "reply to thread" screen

Sorry if I'm hi-jacking your thread, Revi....


----------



## Revontuli

Briefly, no matter what the problem is, we must use the red-triangle instead of our own attempts to help, letting the mods work. That'll be better for both sides, to keep up the good work and peace within WRF.

Thank you again, ampurdan, for clearing it up. 

Of course not, Loob. I should even thank you for bringing that detail to our attention. I hadn't realized that until you did. So, do we all agree that those advices must be removed?


----------



## Loob

I suspect I'm being boring

But how do others feel about the advice in the "reply to thread" screen?


----------



## Revontuli

It'd be really nice if more friends joined us and shared their opinions. There seem to be many who view the thread but...


----------



## Ynez

I have finally found that message, Loob.  I was looking for it when I read you here but never saw it. 

I understand what mods said: it is better for them if we report and not argue with newbies.

I also think it is better for us not to argue with newbies  both for them and for us. And I don't like having to remind people of things like this.

So it looks to me like that message there is useless at the least, and probably misleading.


----------



## danielfranco

The message probably predates the whole red triangle of thread doom discussion. It is one of those living fossils in WRF, like those threads that still have "reputation" on them, or the ones that are almost pure chat.

As for more people joining the discussion, there are no more people!!! I just keep viewing this thread over and over and over and over and over and…



D


----------



## Revontuli

danielfranco said:


> The message probably predates the whole red triangle of thread doom discussion. It is one of those living fossils in WRF, like those threads that still have "reputation" on them, or the ones that are almost pure chat.
> 
> As for more people joining the discussion, there are no more people!!! I just keep viewing this thread over and over and over and over and over and…
> 
> 
> 
> D



Well, OK, DanielF, thanks for helping the thread reach 603 views....


----------



## Loob

Ergo...

It would be interesting to hear from either Mike or the moderators regarding the proposition: should we remove all advice from the "reply to post" screen?


----------



## beccamutt

Loob said:


> So is it just me that finds this advice in the "reply to post screen" misleading?


 
I feel like I should hit the red triangle button on your post here, Loob, to bring your excellent point to the moderators' attention.


----------



## Revontuli

Loob said:


> I suspect I'm being boring
> 
> But how do others feel about the advice in the "reply to thread" screen?



I insistently support your suggestion, Loob.


----------



## Nunty

A quick word from one mod. 

I am sorry no one has offered an authoritative and definitive reply, but I think that is because there isn't one yet. Important points are raised in this thread and we are discussing them and trying to work out what to do.

My _personal_ opinion, and I am in no way speaking on behalf of the other 60 or so moderators at the moment, is that this is not so clear cut a question as it may seem. The Red Triangle of Getting Help (ahem! Daniel F) is the fastest way to get a moderator involved, unless one happens to be reading the thread at that time. Please remember that much of what we do is behind the scenes, by PM, so you may not see immediate results.

We do a lot of moderation by PM in order to avoid embarrassing people or causing them to feel that we are ganging up on them. In fact, that possibility is one reason that some people think it is better that members not remind other members of the rules too strongly in the threads.

On the other hand, quite often a brief, tactful, gentle, friendly, kind word is greatly appreciated by a new member learning the ropes.

I don't know the answer. I do know that the moderation team is discussing the issue and that when we have something worthwhile to say, we'll post it here.


----------



## Ynez

Thank you very much for sharing your view with us, Nunty.


----------



## Loob

Yes - thanks Nunty 

I look forward to the definitive WRF-answer.


----------



## Loob

Ah, I see that this has now disappeared from the Reply to Thread screen:





> - Suggest, politely, to newbies that they read the forum rules and forum stickies before posting.


and that the advice on that screen now reads simply 





> Rules for posting
> Search: forums, dictionary
> Do not reply to threads with no context. Report them
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and other rule violations to moderators.


Thank you, mods!


----------



## Revontuli

Thank you, dear mod-team and congratulations, Loob, for making us all aware of a little but important detail

(And I appreciate myself for being brave and bringing up this topic)


----------



## Nunty

Congratulations to all the brave and wonderful people who use the forums. The mods try not to bite. Really. 

And thanks to Mike K. for being so quickly responsive and making the change.


----------



## Gabita

I think it's moderator's job to remind us the forum rules. We should respect hierarchy. I personally can't stand to be told what to do by some other participant, but I DO accept it by a moderator. When I first posted, I screwed it up, thus, I received a private message from a moderator. That was enough for me to learn the lesson. We should just avoid quarrels.


----------



## Revontuli

Nunty said:


> Congratulations to all the brave and wonderful people who use the forums. The mods try not to bite. Really.
> 
> And thanks to Mike K. for being so quickly responsive and making the change.



No, Nunty, my concern wasn't the mod team at all. I just got worried about unexpected reactions by other foreros. You know, everybody's got their own point of view.


----------

