# Urban transportation



## luis masci

I was thinking how the urban transportation works in another big cities through the world. That popped into my head after to see how calamity the urban system is in my city (Córdoba, Argentina). I’d think in Buenos Aires it’s not pretty better, but as I don’t live there, I’m not in condition to confirm it. 
I’d like to know about whether the schedule frequency is adhered or not, how you pay the tickets, if buses get crowded, etc. 
So I am curious to hear comments about this issue.

P.S. It is also a sort of personal challenging because obviously each time in CF is more and more difficult to find an unexplored topic and I’m bored hearing don Cuchu saying “if you use the search function you will find…”


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## emma42

I am very happy with the transport system in my city, Nottingham, England.

The council has recently brought the tram back to Nottingham after (about) fifty years, and it is fully integrated into the public transport system, along with the excellent bus service.

You can buy a bus or a tram ticket (on the vehicle itself) or you may buy a bus/tram combined ticket for twice the price of a single.  The combined ticket means that you can travel all day on the buses and trams for just £2.50 (about $US 4.75)

You must have the exact amount of money to buy a ticket on a bus, but the tram conductors give change.

By and large, the timetables are adhered to.  Trams and buses can become very crowded at peak times, but people are usually very polite to eachother and there is hardly any inappropriate behaviour (unlike what I have heard about on the London Tube when it is very crowded.  I would actually avoid the London Tube whenever possible, but I like the Nottingham tram.


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## badgrammar

Well, in Paris, public transportation is heavily used and is fairly reliable...  However, given the circular nature of transportation (meaning that all roads and public transportation lines either radiate from the center of Paris, like the spokes on a wheel, or circle around the center of Paris), subway riders are obligated to go into Paris to change directions and head out again.

For example, I live just south of Paris.  Sometimes I work in Marne la Vallée, which is southeast of Paris, and not that far as the bird flies.

However, in order to reach my destination by train, I have to take the subway northbound to Chatelet (center of Paris), and then change lines to head out again southeast.  And it's that way for most destinations, you have to go to the center to change directions.

We just got a new tramway here, and it does the circular thing, it circles around Paris, as does the péripherique (beltway for cars), and the Maréchaux (or interior beltway - large avenue that circle Paris intra-muros).

But the French seem to find this all very normal, I guess when you grow up where things are laid out in a grid-fashion (like in the U.S.), it seems counter-intuitive...  But the French are used to the idea...

To add, I think it's expensive!  To get home from the 11th district the other day (maybe a 10 km distance), 1 metro ticket cost me 2€!!!  I think that's a lot!


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## Bonjules

emma42 said:


> I am very happy with the transport system in my city, Nottingham, England.
> 
> The council has recently brought the tram back to Nottingham........ Trams and buses can become very crowded at peak times, but people are usually very polite to eachother and there is hardly any inappropriate behaviour (unlike what I have heard about on the London Tube when it is very crowded. I would actually avoid the London Tube whenever possible, but I like the Nottingham tram.


 
In Nottingham, emma, people behave because you got a very famous and strict sheriff! 
But seriously, I agree that street cars/trams are a great means of mass transport. I remember a very quiet, clean system of electric trams from
Stuttgart, Germany. The rails were integrated(at the level of) with the street, so the space could be used by cars, motor bikes, pedestrians crossing etc when the tram was not going by. It didn't take up much space at all. I used it every day to go to school on the other side of the city ( even did the homeworkin it when I was able to fetch a seat)
saludos


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## etornudo

badgrammar said:


> But the French seem to find this all very normal, I guess when you grow up where things are laid out in a grid-fashion (like in the U.S.), it seems counter-intuitive... But the French are used to the idea...




Well, in New York, it's the same way. Some places in Brooklyn I can only get to from another part of Brooklyn by going into Manhattan (or almost) on the subway and it's actually much faster than taking a bus there (a more direct route in terms of distance but not traffic).

The train is pretty much designed to herd people into Manhattan in the morning and away from Manhattan in the afternoo. Weekend service is terrible but during the week it works pretty well. I love the subway!


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## emma42

Yes, you are right, bonjules!  The Nottingham tram sounds very much like the one in Stuttgart - quiet, at street level, enabling other traffic to use the same roads.  People here have taken to it like ducks to water.


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## cuchuflete

What about the rest of an urban transportation system?

—bicycles
—taxis
—boats
—pedestrians and special lanes for them
—cars
—mopeds








Don Luis, no te voy a fastidiar con eso de búsquedas.


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## emma42

Oh, because of the reference to "tickets", I assumed the question was just about public transport.


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## luis masci

emma42 said:


> Oh, because of the reference to "tickets", I assumed the question was just about public transport.


Thank you folks for your participation. 
As a matter of fact my thought when I made the original post, was only for public transport. But obviously we also can extend it to all other transportation if you like. 
I have to say, in Córdoba (the only public service available is by buses) happens the same that ‘Badgrammar’ describes for Paris (all lines bound to pass for downtown) 
Besides they dropped off the frequency during week ends and nights due to profiting reasons ($$$) and if you have the bad luck to need it in those hours you will have problems. 

P.S. I think I’ve got the challenging. At least it passed the hard test.


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## luis masci

luis masci said:


> I have to say, in Córdoba (the only public service available is by buses)


Hooo what a silly guy I’m.
I had forgotten besides buses there are a few… trolleys? (I am finding out I don’t know how to say it in English. They are similar to buses but the energy is taken from wires built in the streets. We say “trolebuses” for them).
The only problem is, those trolleys ( or whatever they are called) have been bought to Russia. So they were thought to be used in a very cold climate. That means they have a big fixed glasses in its windows, the engine irradiates hot air towards the interior, etc.
So do you imagine what a “pleasurable” travel you get there in days like today when the temperature rises nearly 40º C?


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## etornudo

luis masci said:


> Hooo what a silly guy I’m.
> I had forgotten besides buses there are a few… trolleys? (I am finding out I don’t know how to say it in English.



"Trolleys" in the US but probably something else in the UK since there a "trolly" is what we call a "shopping cart."

Only a few American cities have trolleys but I love them. Here, in NYC, the traffic and constant construction would make them difficult today. We did use to have them, however, when everything was black and white and people walked pretty fast.


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## Surly Canuck

Here in Toronto we have buses, subways and streetcars (sort of like a trolley I guess).  We also have commuter rail for some of the outlying suburbs.

There are two subway lines, one shaped like a giant U, with the bottom of the U being at the base of downtown, at the commuter rail station.  This line runs north/south. There's a second line which runs east/west under the major street which sort of marks the northern border of downtown.

We have regular bus service that covers much of the rest of the city, and a few streetcar lines which share the road with regular surface traffic, though there are a few with dedicated lanes.  A single fare of ~$3.00 CDN will take you nearly anywhere on the system.  Subways and streetcars run from ~6 AM to ~1:30 AM or so.  Buses run 24 hours, with more during peak times.

The commuter trains are on a separate system; I'm not sure how much they are, but they go much farther outside the city, roughly 75 km North, East, and West.

Car traffic is fairly tight during the rush hours, and the major highways are jam packed.  Many people drive to commuter hubs, park their cars and then hop on public transit.

The major issue in this city is the spread of population.  In order for public transit to remain (or become more) viable, there needs to be increased population density in the core areas of the city.

Transit gets crowded, especially during rush hour, but it's not terrible.  On occasion you need to wait for the next bus, streetcar or subway, but that's not too often.  People are generally decent and patient, though there are the requisite number of jerks.

Surly


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## ireney

*Groan!* If you want to blame someone for the long post blame cuchuflete!

I am talking about Athens and its suburbs and Piraeus and its suburbs (unless you are a local it's most times hard to figure out when one stops and the other begins. At other times it is difficult even if you are a local):


Buses. A sad sad tale of waiting and waiting and then two of them arriving together. And then being stuck in the traffic because there aren't enough buses lanes.
Train: The metro is these past few years in a state of expanding continuously. We just love it apparently as it is packed in peak time and is quite full most of the rest of the time. That's very logical since this is the only one that doesn't get stuck in traffic, is always on time and has frequent train schedules (as I write it I realise this is probably not the right expression).
Trams: Believe it or not we had the tram lines removed some decades ago (I never saw a tram while growing up). Don't ask me why though. Now they are putting the lines back on? but it a) needs expansion b) needs to have its line free or at least more free of traffic lights 
Car: traffic is horrible. I am amazed we don't take our cars to go to the other end of the block. The fact that there's no parking space and the concept of car-pool hasn't really caught on makes the problem of narrow streets in an overpopulated area of people who view rules as guidelines worse.
Taxi: Relatively cheap but suffers from traffic jam problems as all kind of automobiles. In addition to that Greek taxi drivers are giving taxi-drivers a bad name!
Boats: Pretty OK unless it's summer time. Then we always have some sort of problems.
Pedestrians and special lanes for them: It's sidewalks for pedestrians or if they are "occupied" we hit the tarmac. Greeks being Greeks we consider rules as guidelines as pedestrians too so crossing the street is a bit of an adventure
Bicycles. No special lane. Use them at your own risk
Mopeds, and morocycles: In abundance. A bit risky though since I did tell you about rules and guidelines didn't I?


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## emma42

I understand "trolley buses", but do not know of any still existing in the UK (if ever - I'll do some research).  They are basically like trams in that they move along fixed tracks or lines, but they look like buses, not trams?


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## luis masci

ireney said:


> Car: traffic is horrible. I am amazed we don't take our cars to go to the other end of the block. The fact that there's no parking space and the concept of car-pool hasn't really caught on makes the problem of narrow streets in an overpopulated area of people who view rules as guidelines worse.


Well… if we are talking about horrible traffic, I can say here in Argentina we are the “winners”. Many say that who drive here is trained to drive in anywhere else. The traffic in down town of the big cities is chaotic. 
If we talking about traffic in routes… well, we have the sadly privilege to ahead the list of death by accidents. So you can figure it out.


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## emma42

I was completely wrong about trollies/trolley buses.  I don't know if anyone's interested, but I discovered in Wikipedia that we had trolley buses in the UK from 1911 to 1974, when the last system closed in Bradford.  At its height the trolley system had 50 operations in the UK.

Also, they don't run on tracks at all.  They are powered by means of overhead electrical cables.


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## Bonjules

(Trolley buses)
quote=emma42;2264416]I
Also, they don't run on tracks at all. They are powered by means of overhead electrical cables.[/quote]

Exactly. They do have some maneuverability from the middle to the side of the street (to stop) since they have these characteristic long antenna- like rods connected to the power grid overhead.


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## Etcetera

I usually use metro. 
As for buses, I generally don't take any in Moscow, but I frequently take suburban buses there. In St. Petersburg, I often have to use the so-called marshrutkas (small buses, even minivans). But I try to use them as rarely as I can. And I always prefer to take a "normal" bus.
What I like about the metro is that it's very speedy, trains don't get into traffic jams, and it's much cleaner. And you always know exactly when you'll reach your destination.


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## cuchuflete

For those in large urban centers, who are accustomed to frequent, scheduled service, please consider what public, urban transportation means in smaller towns:



> *Who                Can Use Coastal Trans?*
> Anyone                living in our service area can use Coastal Trans.  It is not                just for the elderly or for low income people.
> *How                Do I Schedule a Ride?*
> For                local rides, please call the closest Coastal Trans office before                2:00 PM the day before you want to ride.  We have daily service                int he Bath-Brunswick area, the Rockland area and the Damariscotta                area.


http://www.maine.gov/mdot/opt/transit/coastaltrans.php


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## Bonjules

cuchuflete said:


> For those in large urban centers, who are accustomed to frequent, scheduled service, please consider what public, urban transportation means in smaller towns:
> 
> http://www.maine.gov/mdot/opt/transit/coastaltrans.php


 
They probably make exceptions for ambulances, cuchu.


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## Sallyb36

In Liverpool the bus and train services have improved dramatically over the past 5 years or so.  They now run on time and are not usually too full.  The only time they are full is between 8.30-9am and 5-5.30pm. Even then the trains aren't too bad, but the buses at those times are and it is better to get the train.


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## Lavinia.dNP

In Paris the most efficient means of transport is the "Métro" : there is one subway train every 2 minutes, and in 4 years I never had a problem.

But "le métro" is not that pleasant to travel with :
first of all, the stations and the corridors are constantly being used as urinals
second thing, the trains are not really clean and they stink
third thing, the windows cannot be opened more than a few inches, therefore, in summer the heat is unbearable, and in winter... too, because they overheat the trains disregarding the fact that we all get in there with our coats on (try to take off your coat in a crowded subway train).

The Mayor of Paris is doing all he can to ban cars from the town, but has he tried to travel with the Metro for a couple of months?


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## PABLO DE SOTO

En Málaga,España,donde yo vivo están empezando a construir el metro,pero de momento nos tenemos que conformar con el autobús.

El billete sencillo cuesta 1 euro,pero hay abonos de diez viajes que salen más económicos.También hay precios especiales para jubilados que no superen una determinada renta.

El servicio es aceptable,aunque uno siempre piensa que puede mejorar.
De lunes a viernes hay mayores frecuencias y ,aunque depende de la línea,las más usadas tienen buenas frecuencias ,de 10 a 15 minutos de máxima espera.
Los sábados y domingos las frecuencias disminuyen.

En algunas paradas hay paneles que indican cuantos minutos tarda en llegar el próximo autobús.

El mayor problema es el tráfico,coches en segunda fila,coches aparcados en las paradas y son los que provocan los mayores problemas.

Los autobuses son bastante modernos,tienen aire acondicionado ,lo cual es importante en el caluroso verano malagueño.

En cuanto a si suelen ir muy llenos,pues...depende.Hay horas y momentos en que sí,por ejemplo los días de trabajo a última hora de la tarde cuando cierran comercios y oficinas.

Referente al modo de pagar.
Si pagas en efectivo,le pagas directamente al conductor.
Si tienes un abono ,éste es como una tarjeta de crédito que se introduce en una maquinita que hay al lado del conductor.


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## luis masci

PABLO DE SOTO said:


> Referente al modo de pagar.
> Si pagas en efectivo,le pagas directamente al conductor.
> Si tienes un abono ,éste es como una tarjeta de crédito que se introduce en una maquinita que hay al lado del conductor.


Bueno, aquí también existe la tarjeta de crédito y se opera de la misma forma que vos contás de Málaga, Pablo. Pero son pocos los que la tienen y la mayoría paga con “cospeles” (fichas que sólo sirven para tal fin y que se compran en los kioscos). No se admite dinero en efectivo como pago en el colectivo. 
The cost for a travel is 1.2 $ argentines (about 0.30 Euros). I’ve just heard the municipality of Córdoba has approved a new subvention to avoid rise in the cost of the travel.
That means that ALL people are contributing (whether they use it or not) to support the transport system.


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## Athaulf

Surly Canuck said:


> Here in Toronto we have buses, subways and streetcars (sort of like a trolley I guess).  We also have commuter rail for some of the outlying suburbs.



I would add that bicycles are extremely practical here for about 5-6 months in the year when the weather is warm enough that one can ride them comfortably.  However, a major problem is that they're being stolen like crazy. Even the cheapest bikes that don't seem worth the effort of stealing to me usually get stolen within a few months. 

Even if one uses an extremely strong lock, it's only a matter of time before parts of the bike (brakes, wheels, transmission...) will get stolen.  A friend of mine had an interesting episode when he started riding a bike without noticing that someone had stolen the brakes during the night.


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## PABLO DE SOTO

luis masci said:


> Bueno, aquí también existe la tarjeta de crédito y se opera de la misma forma que vos contás de Málaga, Pablo. Pero son pocos los que la tienen y la mayoría paga con “cospeles” (fichas que sólo sirven para tal fin y que se compran en los kioscos). No se admite dinero en efectivo como pago en el colectivo.
> The cost for a travel is 1.2 $ argentines (about 0.30 Euros). I’ve just heard the municipality of Córdoba has approved a new subvention to avoid rise in the cost of the travel.
> That means that ALL people are contributing (whether they use it or not) to support the transport system.


 

No se paga con una tarjeta de crédito.
Se paga con un abono que tiene la misma forma que una tarjeta de crédito.
Se compra en lugares establecidos por la compañía y es de diez viajes.
Cuando se usan ,se recarga y vuelve a funcionar el mismo.
Es lo mismo que el cospel,pero tiene la forma de una tarjeta de crédito


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## luis masci

PABLO DE SOTO said:


> No se paga con una tarjeta de crédito.
> Se paga con un abono que tiene la misma forma que una tarjeta de crédito.


Ok Pablo me expresé mal; Perdón. Quise decir que aquí es exactamente igual que en Málaga. Las tarjetas de crédito son para otro tipo de gastos, obviamente.


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## macta123

In Delhi :
There many ways to get around. But you may always get around late.
We have buses which are overcrowded in the morning and evening. We have the latest Metro (which is the most rapid means of transport). But that is limited. They are currently in the process of expanding.
There are Auto-rickshaws (Three wheelers) but they may really take you for a drive. Many of the auto(Rickshaw) drivers charge you above the par and they don't like to go-by the meter rate (although illegal).
Then you local area transport we have the age old cycle-rickshaw (Tri-cycle), but these days even they charge you a lot.


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## Shanan

I live in a semi large town in Oregon (US), and we have a very good bus system here.  The busses usually run $2.00 for a day pass, however some of the busses are free for everyone.  It depends on where you are going.  Bicycles are also everywhere.  I feel I am too clumsy to ride one, so I usually ride the bus.  The last city I lived in, Corvallis, claimed to be "a bicycle friendly city".  They encouraged people to ride bikes, and had bike lanes everywhere.


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## Venezuelan_sweetie

Oh well, time for the venezolanita to mess up with the thread... 

To put it simply, here we say "_Caracas se escribe con "C" de Caos_". When it's about urban transportation, Caracas = Chaos, Confusion, Collapse.

- _*Buses:*_ We have two types. 
(a) _Camionetas_ = Hell. They have no schedule, the units are dirty and have uncomfortable seats, the drivers do whatever they want, and they treat commuters like trash. However, one could not claim to have lived in Caracas, if one has not used them more than 20 times... in a month, I mean... 
(b) _Autobuses._ Mainly, we use those for Interstate trips. Depending on whether you choose a (ridicolously expensive) private line or a(n extremely chaotic) public one, I'll tell you whether it is a reliable system or not.

- _*Trolleys*_: We've never had such things. And if you took a walk through my city, you would understand why...

- _*Subway/Underground*_: Here we call it _El Metro_, and it's a disaster. They say it's the best equiped subway system in Latin America, and stands as the fourth or fifth best in the world, but if that's true, then I'm sorry for the rest of the world, because this one is a real mess. It's better than NYC and Paris underground system, if you ask me, but it's still a disaster. 

What Irene says about the Greek metro sounds very similar to ours, except for the fact that air conditioner sometimes works, sometimes doesn't, escalators are a tragedy, and our citizens make it much worse by pushing, stepping, biting, kicking, grabbing, spitting, hitting -and any other aggressive "ing" that you can think of- the other commuters in order to 'be there first'. Horrible...

- I don't understand the difference between modern trams and trains too well, so I'll stick to _*trains *_(_trenes_): We hadn't had trains for a long time, but now we do again. I haven't taken them yet, so I cannot give you an accurate opinion, but they look nice in the newspapers. Although my fellow countrymen, as usual, seem to have thousands of reasons to complain...





> *Cars:* traffic is horrible. I am amazed we don't take our cars to go to the other end of the block. The fact that there's no parking space and the concept of car-pool hasn't really caught on makes the problem of narrow streets in an overpopulated area of people who view rules as guidelines worse


I couldn't have described Caracas better...

- *Taxis:* Good ones are very, very expensive. Bad ones are quite scary. And expensive, anyway. Mediocre ones are almost as expensive as the good ones, and almost as scary as the bad ones. Here, if you want to take a cab, you should phone a friend of yours who drives one. With our unemployment rate, _everybody_ knows a few taxi drivers, most of which are former lawyers, doctors, engineers, bankers... No wait, ex-bankers are no longer in the country, they all live in Florida. 

- _*Motorcycles:*_ They're called "the pest of the city".  They're everywhere, they do whatever they want, they carelessly threaten your life and theirs, they disrespect laws (well, who doesn't?), and if you put a finger on one of them, you'll have dozens of them surrounding you in no time. Beware!

- _*Bycicles:*_ There are special lines for them, but you can't get too far if you use them: they're all concentrated in a small area within the North-East side of the city, so what's the point anyway?

- *Pedestrians:* Okay, those are the ones in real risk, you know? They're under attack, from every flank! Especially downtown. They say you're lucky if you can take a walk over there and then come back home alive... Actually, I concur...





luis masci said:


> Many say that who drive here is trained to drive in anywhere else.


Funny... I've heard the same about Caracas and Maracaibo! 

*PS: I apologyze for such a long thread. Luis, if you think it's too long, PM me and I'll edit it.*


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## luis masci

Athaulf said:


> I would add that bicycles are extremely practical here for about 5-6 months in the year when the weather is warm enough that one can ride them comfortably. However, a major problem is that they're being stolen like crazy. Even the cheapest bikes that don't seem worth the effort of stealing to me usually get stolen within a few months.
> 
> Even if one uses an extremely strong lock, it's only a matter of time before parts of the bike (brakes, wheels, transmission...) will get stolen. A friend of mine had an interesting episode when he started riding a bike without noticing that someone had stolen the brakes during the night.


Ha…I thought things like that, only would happen in undeveloped countries.
I never thought such a thing happening in Canada.


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## Bonjules

Athaulf said:


> I would add that bicycles are extremely practical here for about 5-6 months in the year when the weather is warm enough that one can ride them comfortably. However, a major problem is that they're being stolen like crazy. Even the cheapest bikes that don't seem worth the effort of stealing to me usually get stolen within a few months


 
The cure for that is simple: Make them public (supply one to put on every major corner/traffic hot spot and paint them all the same(or use a characteristc design)
There is little incentive to steal a bike if you can just use one everytime you need one. Besides, even if you did, everybody would right away know that it is public property.
Saludos


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## Lavinia.dNP

Bonjules said:


> The cure for that is simple: Make them public (supply one to put on every major corner/traffic hot spot and paint them all the same(or use a characteristc design)
> There is little incentive to steal a bike if you can just use one everytime you need one. Besides, even if you did, everybody would right away know that it is public property.
> Saludos


 
That would be a great idea in Barbie's world : you'd need to provide "public bikes" in a sufficient number for all, and that's impossible. Therefore, everybody would start hiding bikes at home in order to be sure to have one the next morning to go to the office.


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## Etcetera

Lavinia.dNP said:


> Therefore, everybody would start hiding bikes at home in order to be sure to have one the next morning to go to the office.


Yes, that's the problem.
I like the idea, but I'm afraid that the next morning there will be no "public bikes", but the most smart will ride new bikes of their own.


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## Bonjules

Lavinia.dNP said:


> That would be a great idea in Barbie's world : you'd need to provide "public bikes" in a sufficient number for all, and that's impossible. Therefore, everybody would start hiding bikes at home in order to be sure to have one the next morning to go to the office.


Well, Lavinia, that would be ok, if you needed it that badly. It still would be clear that it is only 'on loan'.
It would be a wise investment for the city/country to provide as many as needed - just imagine all the money saved in other ways.


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## Venezuelan_sweetie

Bonjules said:


> Well, Lavinia, that would be ok, if you needed it that badly. It still would be clear that it is only 'on loan'.
> It would be a wise investment for the city/country to provide as many as needed - just imagine all the money saved in other ways.


Well, I don't know what life is like in Germany, but that's not even a possibility in Latin America (especially in Caracas!)

You bet, it would be just like Anna described. By the way, I'm starting to believe that Venezuela was not invaded by Spain in the XV Century... Do you know if there were Spanish-speaking Russian sailors, back then?


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## maxiogee

Didn't they try this in Amsterdam many years ago?
White bicycles, I seem to recall. The scheme fall apart quite qucikly, if I remember correctly.


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## jess oh seven

Here in Glasgow we have:
Buses
Taxis
Subway
Trains

The *buses *are fairly efficient, but are horribly expensive and the drivers don´t give change, so if you don't have exact change or a buspass, you're in a bit of a predicament. I wish they had those "bonobus" ticket things like in Spain and Holland, where you can buy ten journeys and get yoru ticket stamped/punched each time you board.

The *subway *is quite funny and very idiosyncratic... It's tiny and orange, and there's only one line that goes around in a circle  The prices have gone up a lot since I first moved here, and it's always packed at rush hour.

*Trains *here are pretty reliable and fast, but the stations tend to be out of the way and the prices sky high.

Our *taxis *are the black Hackney ones like they have in London and are EXTORTIONATE. On weekend evenings they impose an extra fare of about £3, so it ends up costing you about double of what you'd normally pay to get home in a taxi. As a result, many young people end up walking home at 3am, sometimes unaccompanied, just because they can't afford a taxi :/ It's not very pleasurable walking home at that time through one of the most violent cities in Europe!

I wish they would bring back *trams*; they had a whole network of them, but they were done away with in the 50s or something.

Although some of the main roads have *cycle *lanes, people still tend to park their SUVs and cars in them so they may as well not even be there... I am terrified of cycling on the road... if they had designated cycling paths like in Holland I'd certainly hop on my bike more often!

Fortunately there aren't many *mopeds *or *motorcycles*... the noise they make used to drive me INSANE in Spain.


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## Bonjules

Venezuelan_sweetie said:


> Well, I don't know what life is like in Germany, but that's not even a possibility in Latin America (especially in Caracas!)
> 
> You bet, it would be just like Anna described. By the way, I'm starting to believe that Venezuela was not invaded by Spain in the XV Century... Do you know if there were Spanish-speaking Russian sailors, back then?


Why would you steal something you couldn't use? Think about it. As soon as you used it, others would use it too.What good would it be sitting in your cellar?


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## Venezuelan_sweetie

Bonjules said:


> Why would you steal something you couldn't use? Think about it. As soon as you used it, others would use it too.What good would it be sitting in your cellar?


Have you ever been to Caracas, my dear? Seems like you haven't... (can't blame you for that, though... )

Here, Rule Nº1 is: "If I can have it, I will". Rule Nº2 is: "If I cannot have it, I'll have it anyway". And of course, Rule Nº3: "If I cannot have it even then, at least I won't let other people have it."

Justice and fairness are relative, in here. And, we have not talked about authority yet. Who would be to punish those who keep public property in their cellars? I mean, which of the _corrupted _forces would? So no, I don't think that scheme could work down here.


----------



## badgrammar

For the bikes, that's probably the same as what would happen in France, I don't think it would work.  

Sure, 80% of people would use the bikes correctly.  The other 20% would destroy them for fun, or take them home and repaint them and use it as their own (it's very hard for a French person to not, try to take advantage of whatever the system is offering, and somehow, in some way, exploit it).  What's the point of having government sponsored programs if you can't cheat the system?  That's no fun at all!

I think that can only work in countries where people on the whole feel it's important to respect the law (Switzerland, maybe, or some Northern European countries, or perhaps Singapore?). France does _not_ fit that despcription.


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## Bonjules

badgrammar said:


> For the bikes, that's probably the same as what would happen in France, I don't think it would work.
> 
> Sure, 80% of people would use the bikes correctly. The other 20% would destroy them for fun, or take them home and repaint them....


I think it would. After a quick period of confusion and excitement, when all those things would happen. It would not be hard at all to manufacture them with some design features that would make it impossible
to easily alter them. How much work would a person go through to alter one if there was a bike out there to use?
It does not make any sense.
(Some vandalism, yes. Like with everything)

P.s. this is a bit like the argument 'if you legalized drugs, people would accumulate them, hoard them to sell them for themselves......-Why? and who would be stupid enough to pay?


----------



## Venezuelan_sweetie

Bonjules said:


> I think it would. (...) How much work would a person go through to alter one if there was a bike out there to use?
> It does not make any sense.


Maybe it doesn't in some countries, where the culture is different. (Remember what we always say in here: _context is everything!_  )

But here in Venezuela, trust me, it does make sense. To a lot of people, at least. Sad, isn't it?


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## badgrammar

As an avid urban cyclist, I love the idea, I think it'd be great - ban all caars from downtown Paris, get everyone on a bike.  Maybe I've just gotten too skeptical and pessimistic from living here so long.  

I think different things will work in different countries, because not all mentalities are the same.  It's sad.  

That said, I'd fully support it if the mayor of Paris decided to give it a try.


----------



## Etcetera

badgrammar said:


> Sure, 80% of people would use the bikes correctly.  The other 20% would destroy them for fun,


In Russia, the proportion would be about 60 to 40 per cents. 
I've seen numerous brand-new buses which after only two months of serving the passengers were painted and damaged by youths. I don't know why on Earth are they doing that.


----------



## PABLO DE SOTO

Venezuelan_sweetie said:


> Oh well, time for the venezolanita to mess up with the thread...
> 
> To put it simply, here we say "_Caracas se escribe con "C" de Caos_". When it's about urban transportation, Caracas = Chaos, Confusion, Collapse.
> 
> - _*Buses:*_ We have two types.
> (a) _Camionetas_ = Hell. They have no schedule, the units are dirty and have uncomfortable seats, the drivers do whatever they want, and they treat commuters like trash. However, one could not claim to have lived in Caracas, if one has not used them more than 20 times... in a month, I mean...
> (b) _Autobuses._ Mainly, we use those for Interstate trips. Depending on whether you choose a (ridicolously expensive) private line or a(n extremely chaotic) public one, I'll tell you whether it is a reliable system or not.
> 
> - _*Trolleys*_: We've never had such things. And if you took a walk through my city, you would understand why...
> 
> - _*Subway/Underground*_: Here we call it _El Metro_, and it's a disaster. They say it's the best equiped subway system in Latin America, and stands as the fourth or fifth best in the world, but if that's true, then I'm sorry for the rest of the world, because this one is a real mess. It's better than NYC and Paris underground system, if you ask me, but it's still a disaster.
> 
> What Irene says about the Greek metro sounds very similar to ours, except for the fact that air conditioner sometimes works, sometimes doesn't, escalators are a tragedy, and our citizens make it much worse by pushing, stepping, biting, kicking, grabbing, spitting, hitting -and any other aggressive "ing" that you can think of- the other commuters in order to 'be there first'. Horrible...
> 
> - I don't understand the difference between modern trams and trains too well, so I'll stick to _*trains *_(_trenes_): We hadn't had trains for a long time, but now we do again. I haven't taken them yet, so I cannot give you an accurate opinion, but they look nice in the newspapers. Although my fellow countrymen, as usual, seem to have thousands of reasons to complain...I couldn't have described Caracas better...
> 
> - *Taxis:* Good ones are very, very expensive. Bad ones are quite scary. And expensive, anyway. Mediocre ones are almost as expensive as the good ones, and almost as scary as the bad ones. Here, if you want to take a cab, you should phone a friend of yours who drives one. With our unemployment rate, _everybody_ knows a few taxi drivers, most of which are former lawyers, doctors, engineers, bankers... No wait, ex-bankers are no longer in the country, they all live in Florida.
> 
> - _*Motorcycles:*_ They're called "the pest of the city".  They're everywhere, they do whatever they want, they carelessly threaten your life and theirs, they disrespect laws (well, who doesn't?), and if you put a finger on one of them, you'll have dozens of them surrounding you in no time. Beware!
> 
> - _*Bycicles:*_ There are special lines for them, but you can't get too far if you use them: they're all concentrated in a small area within the North-East side of the city, so what's the point anyway?
> 
> - *Pedestrians:* Okay, those are the ones in real risk, you know? They're under attack, from every flank! Especially downtown. They say you're lucky if you can take a walk over there and then come back home alive... Actually, I concur...Funny... I've heard the same about Caracas and Maracaibo!
> 
> *PS: I apologyze for such a long thread. Luis, if you think it's too long, PM me and I'll edit it.*


 

Fantástica descripción,pero ummm...no dan muchas ganas de ir a Caracas.

Me encantó eso de que los conductores de camionetas tratan a los pasajeros como basura.
Y eso ¿cómo es?¿los insultan?


----------



## Venezuelan_sweetie

Etcetera said:


> In Russia, the proportion would be about 60 to 40 per cents.


Really? Then I must insist: are you sure there were no Russian invaders back in the XV Century, wandering around the Americas?  Or maybe, there are too many Venezuelan tourists and immigrants entering Russia... 


> I've seen numerous brand-new buses which after only two months of serving the passengers were painted and damaged by youths. I don't know why on Earth are they doing that.


Same here...


----------



## Venezuelan_sweetie

PABLO DE SOTO said:


> Fantástica descripción,pero ummm...no dan muchas ganas de ir a Caracas.
> Me encantó eso de que los conductores de camionetas tratan a los pasajeros como basura.
> Y eso ¿cómo es?¿los insultan?


Bueno, no me malinterpretéis. Caracas es una ciudad muy linda (y turística), hay muchísimo que ver, explorar, conocer... disfrutar! Aquí están algunos de los parques naturales en medio de la ciudad más grandes de Latinoamérica, las bibliotecas mejor surtidas del país y del norte de Suramérica, los museos más impresionantes, la arquitectura más excitante, los paisajes más increíbles para una ciudad con tanta densidad de población, la vida nocturna más loca y desenfrenada, la gente más simpática, amable y generosa que podéis encontrar... No me hagáis hablar, que no paro, eh?

Pero, también es una metrópolis cargada de los problemas resultantes de estar en un país en vías de desarrollo. Es decir, el caos reina. Siempre le digo lo mismo a mis amigos de otros países: Caracas *es un lugar fantástico para visitar, pero espantoso para vivir*. Y también les digo: _*stay away from the subway*_!


----------



## Lavinia.dNP

badgrammar said:


> As an avid urban cyclist, I love the idea, I think it'd be great - ban all caars from downtown Paris, get everyone on a bike. Maybe I've just gotten too skeptical and pessimistic from living here so long.
> 
> I think different things will work in different countries, because not all mentalities are the same. It's sad.
> 
> That said, I'd fully support it if the mayor of Paris decided to give it a try.


 
Don't tell me about the Mayor of Paris. He's trying to suppress cars, but does he realize that we cannot all go by bike? First of all because we don't know where to leave them : they get stolen despite all the chains and padlocks.
The second reason is that you cannot go to the office by bike when it rains and when it's too hot (I don't want to arrive at the office all sweaty and stinking).
The subway works very well, but I'm sure he never tried to get into those stinky and overheated trains.

He wants to suppress cars, but he is the first who uses one.


----------



## badgrammar

Hi Lavini, and here we go again...

Nope, not everyone can go by bike.  They can also take the metro, the trams and the buses.  I'm sure the mayor doesn't take the subway, his job description would make that very impracticable.  

Paris is very small.  You can _esaily_ bike from one end to the other at a leisurely pace without working up a sweat.  Moving at 10-15km/hr, you are unlikely to overheat.  A little bit of sweat does not stink, just need some good deodorant, and/or perhaps a change of clothes.  

There are two choices in Paris - design city streets to handle more highly-polluting car traffic, or design city streets and public transportation systems to function better without automobiles.  

In the year 2007, a year where we are (hopefully) all realizing man's impact on the environment, which of these sounds like a more forward-thinking and sound strategy:  Design for increased automobile traffic, or design for reduced automobile traffic? 

When it's put that way, I would be surprised that you would support the former option and not the latter.


----------



## Lavinia.dNP

badgrammar said:


> Hi Lavini, and here we go again...
> 
> Nope, not everyone can go by bike. They can also take the metro, the trams and the buses. I'm sure the mayor doesn't take the subway, his job description would make that very impracticable.
> 
> Paris is very small. You can _esaily_ bike from one end to the other at a leisurely pace without working up a sweat. Moving at 10-15km/hr, you are unlikely to overheat. A little bit of sweat does not stink, just need some good deodorant, and/or perhaps a change of clothes.
> 
> There are two choices in Paris - design city streets to handle more highly-polluting car traffic, or design city streets and public transportation systems to function better without automobiles.
> 
> In the year 2007, a year where we are (hopefully) all realizing man's impact on the environment, which of these sounds like a more forward-thinking and sound strategy: Design for increased automobile traffic, or design for reduced automobile traffic?
> 
> When it's put that way, I would be surprised that you would support the former option and not the latter.


 
I agree with you about the fact that we should minimize the use of cars, but I don't really understand why the Mayor couldnt take the subway like he wants all of us to do. Who cares about his "job description" or "prestigious position" I want him to try what it means being in those trains in the rush hour.
Concerning the bike : I'd like to have one, but I don't know where to park it without it being stolen.


----------



## Etcetera

Lavinia.dNP said:


> I agree with you about the fact that we should minimize the use of cars, but I don't really understand why the Mayor couldnt take the subway like he wants all of us to do. Who cares about his "job description" or "prestigious position" I want him to try what it means being in those trains in the rush hour.


Absolutely the same down here. 
I believe no one would feel like doing anything to make urban transportation more effective as long as all the members of local governments use special cars to get wherever they want.


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## badgrammar

Lavinia.dNP said:


> I agree with you about the fact that we should minimize the use of cars, but I don't really understand why the Mayor couldnt take the subway like he wants all of us to do. Who cares about his "job description" or "prestigious position" I want him to try what it means being in those trains in the rush hour.
> Concerning the bike : I'd like to have one, but I don't know where to park it without it being stolen.



I've been riding the same comfy, discrete 150€ bike for 3 years now, park it and lock it and it has never been stolen...  I do have an indoor place to store it at night, though.  But after 3000 km, if it got stolen and I had to buy a new one, well, it's still the cheapest transportation around.  

Try it, try it, you shall see...


----------



## luis masci

Lavinia.dNP said:


> I agree with you about the fact that we should minimize the use of cars, but I don't really understand why the Mayor couldnt take the subway like he wants all of us to do. Who cares about his "job description" or "prestigious position" I want him to try what it means being in those trains in the rush hour.


In France, Russia…. well, seems it’s a global characteristic then, because the same occurs here in Argentina as well.
I think the most indicated to make urban transportation more effective should be those who use this transportation. They are who use (and suffer) it everyday.
But those bureaucrats who are planning it, never ever have ridden a bus in their whole life; so they hardly can understand the problem. 
----------------------------
Corrections of my attempts to write in English are welcome anytime


----------



## badgrammar

I do understand the point about wanting even public officialss to use public transportation.  

But as far as the Paris metro is concerned, I don't really know what it would change.  The lines are old, most of the stations are in bad repair, that is quite true.

However, i think there is little that can be done to make them smell better, to make them less hot and stuffy, to make them less crowded.  You can of coursse re-do stations and add new trains (which I believe is being done regularly), but I don't think you can take the unpleasantness of riding in the metro away - it's a very, very old system that cannot be shut down and entirely re-hauled.  you can only tackle one line, one station, at a time.

Maybe if they could shut the whole thing down, or even close entire lines for months at a time, it would be possible to make huge improvements, but what would riders do during that time? 

It is far easier if, like (20 years ago) in Washington DC, or more recently in Delhi, you are building an entirely new system, then the whole thing is accomplished with modern materials and technology.  But when your dealing with such an old and vast system as the Parisian metro....


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## Bonjules

badgrammar said:


> Maybe if they could shut the whole thing down, or even close entire lines for months at a time, it would be possible to make huge improvements, but what would riders do during that time?
> 
> It is far easier if, like (20 years ago) in Washington DC, or more recently in Delhi, you are building an entirely new system, then the whole thing is accomplished with modern materials and technology. But when your dealing with such an old and vast system as the Parisian metro....


You are surely not suggesting to build a completely new system in Paris. But it would be entirely realistic, I'd think to shut one major branch down at the time, rebuild tracks and stations all at the same time and start up again with new trains. The chaos would be limited/controlled; you'd have to add extra capacity on the surface temporarily, buses, trolleys, etc and might have to severely limit private traffic in that sector for the time. I think the French govt. has shown itself well capable of ordering stringent measures when necessary.
Furthermore, the entire work force, which would be considerable, could then move on to the next sector with all that experience under their belt. Completing all the sectors might take 10 years, but transport during this time would be maintained, more or less. Plus, you'll have all these bikes....


----------



## badgrammar

No, I'm not suggesting that at all, it is entirely unrealistic.  My point was that when you are dealing with an old system like the one in Paris, you can't really do that much to overhaul the whole thing so that riders will be happy to use the system.  Lavinia, for example, complains that the metro is stinky and dirty and, well, gross.  And she's right.  But there's not a heck of a lot that can be done, realistically.

I can only imagine the pandemonium that would be caused if they shut down an entire metro line, the system transports far too many people who are entirely dependent on it.  So I think that beyond improving the metro, other modes of transportation need to be favored.



Bonjules said:


> You are surely not suggesting to build a completely new system in Paris. But it would be entirely realistic, I'd think to shut one major branch down at the time, rebuild tracks and stations all at the same time and start up again with new trains. The chaos would be limited/controlled; you'd have to add extra capacity on the surface temporarily, buses, trolleys, etc and might have to severely limit private traffic in that sector for the time. I think the French govt. has shown itself well capable of ordering stringent measures when necessary.
> Furthermore, the entire work force, which would be considerable, could then move on to the next sector with all that experience under their belt. Completing all the sectors might take 10 years, but transport during this time would be maintained, more or less. Plus, you'll have all these bikes....


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## JamesM

Los Angeles is trying to build a public transportation network, but it's a difficult task with so much area to cover. According to Wikipedia, Paris covers a little under 41 square miles; Los Angeles covers nearly 500 square miles. Needless to say, it's an entirely different problem to create a transportation system that covers more than ten times the area.  Also, we are coming to the realization very late that we need such a network.  

We do have a subway, believe it or not. For the most part, it works as a hub-and-spoke system, with downtown Los Angeles as the hub. The subway trains do not run anywhere near as often as Paris' Metro system. 

We have a commuter rail system, but its still in its fledgling stage. Our suburbs stretch out nearly 80 miles (125 km) in every direction. The commuter train system carries about 45,000 passengers a day, a tiny portion of the millions of daily commuters. Part of the problem is that the trains, subways and other forms of transportation (such as commuter buses) are not interlinked well.

There is a large network of buses in the greater Los Angeles area, along with municipal bus lines for the adjacent cities. The bus system is improving, in my opinion, but the frequency of buses needs to be increased dramatically before it can be a viable alternative to a car.

Taxis here are expensive (as they are everywhere, I suppose.) Quite a few people carpool or vanpool to work - there is a special lane on many of the freeways that is for carpool vehicles only.


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## OldAvatar

In Bucharest, Romania, we have subway, buses, trams, trolley-buses and some sort of speedy tram lines. Public transport is hillarious, with subway being on top of this funny situation. Sometimes, for going down town, you have to travel about 8-10 km, but you have to change two metro trains, and wait for each of them up to ten minutes. So, you'll have an amazing world record of about 30-40 minutes for a 10 km travel.. ( They've invested money in some futuristic concepts on local buses. Something in connection with satellites technology, a sort of a GPS system, that localises the bus position and than a TV system will provide you cultural and "useful" info. So, instead of investing money in buses, so they can come quicker, they're putting the money in all sorts of dubious systems... another one is an electronic device that allows passengers to use only one electronic card on all vehicles, but that doesn't work properly yet and, sometimes, you'll have to insert the card ten times in order to get it validated. Also, the traffic gets impossible, especially at peak hours. There are not comutter trains inside the city and trams are usually kinda noisy and uncomfortable.


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## Bonjules

JamesM said:


> .... According to Wikipedia, Paris covers a little under 41 square miles; Los Angeles covers nearly 500 square miles. Needless to say, it's an entirely different problem to create a transportation system that covers more than ten times the area.....
> 
> We do have a subway, believe it or not. For the most part, it works as a hub-and-spoke s.
> 
> We have a commuter rail system, but its still in its fledgling stage. Our suburbs stretch out nearly 80 miles (125 km) in every direction. The commuter train system carries about 45,000 passengers a day, a tiny portion of the millions of daily commuters. Part of the problem is that the trains, subways and other forms of transportation (such as commuter buses) are not interlinked well.
> 
> There is a large network of buses in the greater Los Angeles area, along with municipal bus lines for the adjacent cities. The bus system is improving, in my opinion, but the frequency of buses needs to be increased....


Yes, James, subways work best with a high population density; the enormous investment would be hard to justify in L.A. This city was not designed  to accommodate as many as possible in a small space, but to build as many single-family homes on 50X150 foot lots as possible; the space (desert) was there.
To build the 'subway' roughly along the lines of the Santa Monica freeway made some sense since it is as we know enormously congested with everbody from the West Side, Santa Monica and beyond trying to crowd into downtown L.A.(has it actually been extended to WLA/SM?).
An aboveground 'light rail' /commuter rail system woud seem the most rational choice in your case; it is relatively easy to build and can be very fast and efficient. It probably would have to be supplemented by shuttles/small buses/vans to get people to the stations(or you would have to make space for them to park their cars there). What do you think?


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## Venezuelan_sweetie

Bonjules said:


> (...) it would be entirely realistic, I'd think to shut one major branch down at the time, rebuild tracks and stations all at the same time and start up again with new trains. The chaos would be limited/controlled; you'd have to add extra capacity on the surface temporarily, buses, trolleys, etc and might have to severely limit private traffic in that sector for the time.(...) Plus, you'll have _all these bikes_....


Insisting upon the bikes thing, huh? 

Well then, I must apologyze for hanging on to my fear _(so typical of Caracas)_ of seeing the money from my taxes fly away -and miracolously land on my neighbors' garage, right after... 

However, I do agree with the feasibility of renewing a whole underground system, bit by bit,_* only if*_ the government is _*really *_prepared to prevent (or at least, manage) chaos during the meantime.

My country's government is currently trying something like that, by improving a section of a track at a time, and supplementing the limited Metro services with surface transportation. The problem here is that surface transportation before those additional problems was already _catastrophic_ (a nightmare of sheer torture while sleeping on a bed of nails with an elephant sitting on your chest, all in the smallest pot of burning fire by the hottest corner of Hell, could perhaps resemble it better), go figure how worse that could get, if one decided to purposely overload it a bit more... 

Anyway, there have been no bombings on the Metro headquarters yet, three years from the start of this nuclear accident in the middle of the city with the little ads reading "Men At Work" (no, not the ones from 'Down Under', for heaven's sake!).

So, if the French government (or any other) can do better than Venezuelan government (and, sure they can!!!!), then what's the problem? It could work...


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## badgrammar

:





Venezuelan_sweetie said:


> The problem here is that surface transportation before those additional problems was already catastrophical (a nightmare of sheer torture while sleeping on a bed of nails with an elephant sitting on your chest, all in the smallest pot of burning fire by the hottest corner of Hell, could perhaps resemble it better), go figure how worse that could get, if one decided to purposely overload it a bit more...



Beautiful analogy Sweetie, very poetic!  Only one small correction to your very fine English  !


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## Venezuelan_sweetie

badgrammar said:


> Beautiful analogy Sweetie, very poetic! Only one small correction to your very fine English !


He he, thanks for both of the compliments!    And, for the help with my English.  As my signature reads, I'm very aware of how much I need it (I'd rather have it through PMs, though  )...


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## tvdxer

Moderator's note: This is the first post of a separate thread merged with the "Urban transportation" one

I understand that Americans tend to utilize public transportation systems far less than inhabitants of most other countries.  Part of this is because American cities tend to be more sparsely populated than those of Europe or Asia, and with the exception of some very large and older cities, such as New York and Boston (where these attitudes do not exist, or at least aren't nearly as strong), most public transportation systems here really aren't that great.  Yet I think a cause of this, as well as a result, are American views towards public transport: we tend to see it as the poor man's way of getting around.  I personally don't mind riding the bus, but many seem to view it as beneath their dignity.  For example, I was going to ride the bus (which runs right in front of my place of work) to the cycle shop to pick up my bike.  One of our employees said something like "You're not going to ride the bus!  I'll give you a ride there!".  Such an attitude seems widespread.  In addition, there is the idea (partly based on reality), that buses are dirty and full of undesirables.  One person I know did not want his girlfriend from riding on them.  

I'm wondering if a similar attitude exists in other countries.  Is public transportation seen as low class, a cheap way of getting around for the poor, jobless, and despondent?


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## Outsider

Well, if you're really, really rich obviously you're not going to use public transportation. And some people don't like to be bound to schedules; once you get a car, it seems it's hard to turn back. For me, the most uncomfortable part about public transportation is when they're too crowded. 
Other than that, I don't think there's any negative feeling towards public transportation. But from what I've heard Europe generally has better public transportation services than the States. (I'm curious to know if others agree with this, by the way...)


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## luis masci

This topic has been already discussed a lot here.


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## Hockey13

Outsider said:


> Other than that, I don't think there's any negative feeling towards public transportation. But from what I've heard Europe generally has better public transportation services than the States. (I'm curious to know if others agree with this, by the way...)



The "States" is a very large place with very varying public transportation systems.

It depends on what you mean by public transportation too. Our train network is not as good because our highways are (generally) well laid out and most people travel longer distances by car. The longest distances are covered by plane. Taking a bus from New York to Boston is a lot cheaper than taking a train. The other levels of public transportation are all handled on the municipal level. Boston's MBTA is the oldest public transportation system in the country and it's a mess...well some lines are. New York, by comparison, is pretty good...as is Washington D.C. Getting into and out of New York City is relatively easy from New Jersey, but it can be rough from Long Island. In Orange County, there is such a sprawl that public transportation could never make any sense on a very large level without making some drastic changes. Everyone just drives cars (which is why parts of the 5 freeway has 6 or 7 lanes on each side).

Just another instance of why it doesn't make much sense to generalize about the U.S.

On the other hand, there is Germany where I lived for a significant period of time. Almost everywhere you go you will find (very efficient) yellow streetcars in larger cities, and then you have the regional trains and Deutsche Bahn network which is not only expansive, but extremely efficient, in my experience. The streetcars are run on a city level, the regional systems are coordinated by the DB, I believe, and the DB runs very nice trains from place to place very efficiently (as was seen in last year's World Cup). There's a certain pride in Germany about the train system and I've met many people who take the train to work if it fits their routes. In places where the regional trains might not make sense, a bus can be taken, and it generally is taken by younger people when distances are too long for a bike. So the answer to your question would be...no I don't think people look down on it at all. Gas prices are far too high and the system is far too efficient for people to look down on it.


----------



## Sepia

I wish the Hamburg transit system was as cheap as the one in Paris - way up this thread someone complains about 2 Euro for a trip of approx. 10 km. Add a Euro or two and your'e in.

When I used to live in Copenhagen I always used my bike exept when it was really cold. Bike lanes there are magnificent and public transportation of poor quality and ridiculously expensive. Fortunately I could use the shower when I arrived at work - I work up sweat also at short distances if it is stop-and-go traffic. There I rode 30-40 km a day. I don't see the problem of parking a bike at night - there is only one place for at good bike at night: In your appartment.

Hamburg is OK if you stay within the city - I used to work a couple of km outside. Would still have been OK with the popular combination - commuter train + a cheap bicycle at the destination station - if I had worked normal 9 to 5 hours. But sometimes the return trip lasted more than 2 hours. So I bought a car and to cut costs also a motor scooter.

Now that I only go across town I still use the scooter - which is still cheaper than public transport. (cheap vehicle, no tax, good fuel economy).
Bike lanes in Hamburg are absolutey lousy and dangerous.

What noise is concerned I don't see what problem some of the forum-users here have. Modern 4-stroke 50 or 125cc motorcycle-engines make less noise than even the tires only, of many of the cars an SUVs that people bring into the city (for whatever reason).


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## luis masci

tvdxer said:


> I personally don't mind riding the bus, but many seem to view it as beneath their dignity.
> I'm wondering if a similar attitude exists in other countries. Is public transportation seen as low class, a cheap way of getting around for the poor, jobless, and despondent?


I’ve noticed this attitude by some of my fellow citizens too.
One thing is if you want avoid the public transportation because it is uncomfortable, badly service, etc and another completely different one is because you think it can down your status or something like that.
I see it totally ridiculous and typical from people who grew up with the capitalist system in their brain.


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## Hockey13

luis masci said:


> I see it totally ridiculous and typical from people who grew up with the capitalist system in their brain.



This sentence makes no sense. A person with the capitalist system "in their brain" would value things like good service and cheap fares. A person with an aristocratic system "in their brain" would value superiority. Could you please explain what you mean?


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## Etcetera

tvdxer said:


> I'm wondering if a similar attitude exists in other countries.  Is public transportation seen as low class, a cheap way of getting around for the poor, jobless, and despondent?


Well, in Russia, there is a belief that a rich person won't use public transport - they have cars. 
But in recent years, public transport in cities, especially the metro, is becoming more and more popular even with people who already own a car. When you use the metro, you can be 99% sure that you'll get to your station in time - and if you're driving a car, you can't know for sure if there isn't any traffic jam ahead. 
And one more thing - public transport here isn't that cheap.


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## Lugubert

There has so far been very little mentioning of Scandinavia.

In Stockholm, there's now a "congestion tax" levied on all cars entering the central zone. On each passage, it's a (US) dollar and a half to almost three dollars, depending on the time of the day. The main reason to introduce it was to have a healthier city environment, but I suppose that the prospect of building offices will profit the city and companies more than building a sufficient street network and parking houses also played a part.

Travelling the near suburbs will involve buses or subway/tube; for the more distant areas, there is a fairly well developed system of commuter trains, sometimes enhanced by intercity trains.

A specific Stockholm problem is that the municipal system is rather radially conceived. For some (for example) northwestern areas, if you want to go eastwards, you'll have to go southeast to the system hub and then to the north/northeast again.

Anyway, it works, and except for extreme winters, there are few delays or time table violations.

In the years B.T. (before tax), however, if you chose your hours, most of the area was quite accessible by car as well.

Second in size to Stockholm is Göteborg/Gothenburg, where i now live. 

There's a slightly heated debate right now, on if we should promote us using the Swedish or the English city name, especially following the recent spectacular Sweden-China-Sweden voyage of the East Indiaman copy Götheborg, but that's fodder for another thread, I think.

Greater Göteborg is, I suppose, at some half a million inhabitants. No subway/tube (lots of unreliable clay around here), but a useable tram network, supplemented by a local and near-suburbial bus system.

Regional trains seem to have recurring problems, but public (and media) pressure will soon remedy that.

There's a major political controversy here as to facilitating or prohibiting use of private cars (centre - right) or making their use difficult/expensive (left - green). So far, it's possible if not always too convenient to use your car for purchasing heavy or cumbersome items from your preferred city shop. There's thus, obviously, a substantial emergence of peripheral shopping areas offering abundant parking facilites and a wide choice of speciality/general shops.

On the other hand, it's still possible, but admittedly slightly awkward, to buy a decently sized (some 7' high?) Christmas tree in central Gothenburg, and bring it home to your eastern neighbour municipality using the city tram + the regional bus. (For those locally knowledgeable and interested, I tried it from Grönsakstorget to Sävedalen, and it worked.)


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## luis masci

Hockey13 said:


> This sentence makes no sense. A person with the capitalist system "in their brain" would value things like good service and cheap fares. A person with an aristocratic system "in their brain" would value superiority. Could you please explain what you mean?


Like all we know, Capitalism exacerbates individualism, competition and "appearances". 
Do you catch on it now?


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## Porteño

Here in Buenos Aires we have a fairly extensive subway/underground railway system but. like Paris, it suffers the disadvantage that it is always necessary to go to the centre to make connections. However, a cross-city line is currently under construction to be completed in ? (We will only know on the day!) which should help to relieve this problem. Although it is much quicker than travelling by surface transport, the trains are not very frequent with an interval of about 4-5 minutes which means they are grossly overcrowded in the peak periods. Most of the trains are fairly modern, many having been recently imported second-hand from Japan and a few brand-new locally manufactured from Alstom. However, we have one line, the 'A', which still uses the original rolling stock from its inauguration in 1913! Wooden seats and all. There is only one fare regardless of destination - A$P0.70 (about US$0.22) which is very cheap and heavily subsidised.

Buses, also cheap at A$P0.80 (US$0.26) are plentiful and, on many routes, very frequent. Sometimes, as many as ten or more will bunch together. The units are modern and reasonably comfortable, a far cry from the old 'colectivos' which were little better than cattle truck since they were based on truck chassis with no independent suspension.

There is a move afoot to apply a universal ticket as in Córdoba to cover the subway, buses and suburban trains, but again we will have to wait and see on that one.

Taxis are also plentiful, there are about 25,000 of them and are also not too expensive, especially when compared to other parts of the world. The flag is about US$0.70 and then some US$0.65 per kilometre.

Traffic in general is pretty chaotic, drivers paying absolutely no attention to traffic signs - where it says - No Parking - appears to be read as 'Parking at any time'. Indicator lights are seldom if ever used so it's your guess where the driver in front is going. Lanes are just decorative lines on the street best viewed when driving with them under the centre of your car. Road users regularly make left turns directly from the extreme right lane or vice versa. 

Pedestrians are provided with striped crossing lines and wheel-chair ramps but people frequently park on these too. Crossing the street is an adventure as many other road users regard them as prey for the hunt. Cyclists and motor-cyclists ride indiscriminately on and off the sidewalk/pavement and in both directions, even on one-way streets, so one always has to look both ways before venturing to put your foot on the dtreet!

A few years ago a traffic expert was brought over from the UK to advise on how to improve the traffic. After two weeks he gave up, saying it was a 'Mission IMpossible'.

The road toll is about 10,000 deaths a year which speaks for itself as regards driving discipline.

Nevertheless. in spite of all the above, traffic moves rather faster than in most capital cities of the world.


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## Porteño

badgrammar said:


> :
> 
> Beautiful analogy Sweetie, very poetic! Only one small correction to your very fine English !


 
I'm afraid your correction was wrong - 'catastrophic' was perfectly correct.


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## Qcumber

badgrammar said:


> To add, I think it's expensive! To get home from the 11th district the other day (maybe a 10 km distance), 1 metro ticket cost me 2€!!! I think that's a lot!


I thought 10 tickets cost 11 euros ... so 1 ticket costs 1.1 euros, not 2.


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## Sepia

Qcumber said:


> I thought 10 tickets cost 11 euros ... so 1 ticket costs 1.1 euros, not 2.




Sounds like you are talking about Paris, right - or some othe city with similar price policy. In quite a few places you pay a lot less per ticket, when you buy 10, than when you buy single tickets.


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## Etcetera

Sepia said:


> Sounds like you are talking about Paris, right - or some othe city with similar price policy. In quite a few places you pay a lot less per ticket, when you buy 10, than when you buy single tickets.


Same goes for St Petesburg and Moscow metros. I don't know about bus tickets, but on the metro you can save quite a lot of money by purchasing 10 or more tickets.


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## Qcumber

Sepia said:


> Sounds like you are talking about Paris, right - or some othe city with similar price policy. In quite a few places you pay a lot less per ticket, when you buy 10, than when you buy single tickets.


Yes, but this is true everywhere.


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## Venezuelan_sweetie

tvdxer said:


> Is public transportation seen as low class, a cheap way of getting around for the poor, jobless, and despondent?


I don't know... Gas is very cheap here (by now, that's about to change), while bus fares are going higher and higher (and higher and higher and...), so it gets kind of confusing.

Actually, I can tell that using public transportation can be just as expensive as a car loan, but if you didn't get a car when the economy was going better and everybody was buying, then you'd have to put up with the bus for a long while from now, as it is very hard to pay for both at the same time.

And even though public transportation is terrible over here, highway traffic is soo much worse. You could spent 3, even 4 hours stuck at a traffic jam, while you could have walked the same distance in, say, 45 minutes.

Heck, I just think it's too easy to hate getting around this city...





Porteño said:


> I'm afraid your correction was wrong - 'catastrophic' was perfectly correct.


Badgrammar's correction was accurate, Porteño. I got mixed up with FranSpanGlish and wrote catastrophical, instead of catastrophic.


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## Porteño

Badgrammar's correction was accurate, Porteño. I got mixed up with FranSpanGlish and wrote catastrophical, instead of catastrophic. 6th July 2007 01:39 PM

Not so, the following is copied from your original thread which was absolutely correct.

My country's government is currently trying something like that, by improving a section of a track at a time, and supplementing the limited Metro services with surface transportation. The problem here is that surface transportation before those additional problems was already _*catastrophic*_ (a nightmare of sheer torture while sleeping on a bed of nails with an elephant sitting on your chest, all in the smallest pot of burning fire by the hottest corner of Hell, could perhaps resemble it better), go figure how worse that could get, if one decided to purposely overload it a bit more...


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## JamesM

Porteño said:


> Badgrammar's correction was accurate, Porteño. I got mixed up with FranSpanGlish and wrote catastrophical, instead of catastrophic. 6th July 2007 01:39 PM
> 
> Not so, the following is copied from your original thread which was absolutely correct.


 
Posts can be edited on this board, Porteño. If you'll check the posts, you'll see that Badgrammar's correction was posted first, then Venezuelan_Sweetie went back and edited her post to correct her error, kindly leaving an explanation to clarify:

_Last edited by Venezuelan_sweetie : 21st February 2007 at 07:46 AM. Reason: A catastrophic mistake. Thanks, badgrammar!  _

The original text of the post is preserved in Badgrammar's quote of her original post.


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## Porteño

Apparently I didn't go back far enough, sorry!


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## badgrammar

Qcumber said:


> I thought 10 tickets cost 11 euros ... so 1 ticket costs 1.1 euros, not 2.



Depends - it is cheaper per ticket to buy a "carnet de dix" - ten tickets for Paris intra-muros is now* 11€10.  (Assuming you are not eligible for any discount and are not buying some sort of "pass", just regular tickets.) So, one single ticket is 1€50.

But I live less than 3.5 kilometers outside of Paris (not very far at all), considered "zone 3", so a "carnet de dix" will cost me *16€80*... and a single ticket costs me...  *2€10.*  For less than 10 km of travel.  

So into Paris and back, 4€20.  I find that expensive indeed. 

*Paris has just changed the tiketing system and the old "ticket T" is now the "Ticket T+" which allows you to make transfers from metro to bus to tramway within 1 and a half hours of validating your ticket.  This is great because before, if I needed to use the metro plus a bus to go somewhere, I coughed up first for the RER zone 3 ticket, then another intra-muros ticket for the bus (making a one-way trip almost 4 euros!!!).  The T+ ticket also allows you to access zones just outside of Paris by bus without paying extra.

And in another smart move on behalf of Mayor Delanoé, the homeless as well as those who can demonstrate financial hardship now receive passes to ride for free.


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## geve

Bonjules said:


> The cure for that is simple: Make them public (supply one to put on every major corner/traffic hot spot and paint them all the same(or use a characteristc design)
> There is little incentive to steal a bike if you can just use one everytime you need one. Besides, even if you did, everybody would right away know that it is public property.
> Saludos


Well, well... Are you Mr Delanoe's counsellor or what?  As of this summer, there are "bikes stations" available every 300 meters in Paris (well it's the mid-term plan at least) where people can take and leave a bike at their liking.

Isn't that urban transportation at its best? I like the subway (yes, you read correctly: I said I liked the subway ! And they do renovate it constantly, one station at a time) for the freedom it allows: freedom to hop in and off, to change your plans, to go to work by public transport and decide you want to walk home... The "Vélib" system has the same advantages, with an additional benefit on thighs muscles. 


badgrammar said:


> For the bikes, that's probably the same as what would happen in France, I don't think it would work.


The system's been on in Lyon for two years, and it seems to work just fine (to take just one example). AND it's cheaper than a metro ticket  (1€/24 hours or 29€/year, provided you use the bike less than 30 minutes - but then you can take a fresh one at no extra cost) but it doesn't take you to the suburb.  AND the implementation of the system was entirely paid for by a deal on advertising space. 

Individual public transportation. Can it get any better? So I have two comments to make:
- As a citizen I would never have dared dream of a concept like that.
- Why aren't they implementing this in every city of the world???


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## Etcetera

geve said:


> Isn't that urban transportation at its best? I like the subway (yes, you read correctly: I said I liked the subway ! And they do renovate it constantly, one station at a time) for the freedom it allows: freedom to hop in and off, to change your plans, to go to work by public transport and decide you want to walk home... The "Vélib" system has the same advantages, with an additional benefit on thighs muscles.


It has one huge disadvantage, though.

In the subway, the weather is always fine. As for the bike, you can hardly ride it if it's raining. And St Petersburg is especially famous for its rains... (Not that I'm complaining - I love rains.)


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## geve

Etcetera said:


> It has one huge disadvantage, though.
> 
> In the subway, the weather is always fine. As for the bike, you can hardly ride it if it's raining. And St Petersburg is especially famous for its rains... (Not that I'm complaining - I love rains.)


Yes, they forgot something when they designed the bikes... In Chengdu, China, where bikes really are a popular mean of urban transportation (at first it is a bit disconcerting for a pedestrian to be suddenly surrounded by bikes on the sidewalks - because that's where they're supposed to ride in some streets), it took me a while to understand why so many bikes had a sort of pole attached to the handlebar. I thought that maybe it was to "tune" their bikes with flags or something - but no! It's where the umbrella goes when the rain shows up.  You still get your legs soaked, though.


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## shoobydoowap

I've only been in Madrid a week and a half, and I really don't have anything to compare it to, but I was very impressed by the Metro. Always on time, not TOO crowded (then again, I haven't gone very often to the tourist areas), very clean, and incredibly easy to navigate. And every taxi I've taken has been impeccable.


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## Etcetera

geve said:


> You still get your legs soaked, though.


If it's raining, you'll get your legs soaked even without a bicycle and with the biggest umbrella you'd manage to get.

Still, I don't think bicycles will ever be a popular means of public transport here in Russia - in most regions of the country, it's just too cold. But I heard that in Finland, people ride bicycles even in November.


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## luis masci

Etcetera said:


> Still, I don't think bicycles will ever be a popular means of public transport here in Russia - in most regions of the country, it's just too cold. But I heard that in Finland, people ride bicycles even in November.


Here in big cities from Argentina, the main objection against using bicycles is not the weather but the traffic. 
There are not lanes for bicycles, so they have to share the same routes with cars, trucks and buses. Being this country one of those that ahead the accidents ranking, is not estrange many cyclists end their life beneath the wheels.


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## Etcetera

luis masci said:


> Here in big cities from Argentina, the main objection against using bicycles is not the weather but the traffic.
> There are not lanes for bicycles, so they have to share the same routes with cars, trucks and buses. Being this country one of those that ahead the accidents ranking, is not estrange many cyclists end their life beneath the wheels.


The same problem here. There are no lanes for bicycles, and a person who doesn't want to risk their life on a road must ride their bicycle in parks.


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