# Finem et patientiam



## Tom Greenhill

Hello everyone,

I was reading and comparing the Latin Old Testament with its English Translation (New International Ver), and I was confused by the translation of a sentence.

It was Jeremiah 29:11, the Latin sentence was:
_ego enim scio cogitationes quas cogito super vos ait Dominus cogitationes pacis et non adflictionis ut dem vobis finem et patientiam_​And it was translated into:
"For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."​
So I can get that cogitationes is "the plans," but I don't understand why was "finem et patientiam" (= an end and patience) translated into "hope and a future?"

Do they contain the meaning of "hope" and "future" themselves? And if so, would you please tell me which is which?

Thank you very much!


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## Grugno

The problem is interesting indeed, but, first of all, may I ask you why do you compare the English version with the Latin one? Wouldn't be more proper to compare it to the original Hebrew one, that is the starting ground of the Latin version too? Maybe you can find in that language the key for the problem.


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## metaphrastes

Grugno said:


> The problem is interesting indeed, but, first of all, may I ask you why do you compare the English version with the Latin one? Wouldn't be more proper to compare it to the original Hebrew one, that is the starting ground of the Latin version too? Maybe you can find in that language the key for the problem


Yes, this is the only proper solution - and I have to note too that Hebrew in general allows room for more than one interpretation than Greek, so that we may find very different solutions for some verses or words in different translations.
Then, the Hebrew text ends the verse by the words _acharit vetikvah_, literally, _end and expectation_, as we find in a note to King James version. King James itself reads _to give you an expected end_, that is some kind of interpretation of the Hebrew wording, and the note tries to give a more literal reading.

Now, seeing each word _acharit _means both _after part, end, _as well _end, issue, event; latter, future time; _and also _posterity. _One has to figure out what of these meanings makes more sense in the context of the sentence and the book itself.

And _tikvah _means concretely _cord. _Hebrew words have in general a very concret sense, and then figurative usages. Then, we get _hope, expectation_, maybe because a _cord _may be the only hope to go out from a pit, say (though this last guess is speculative, but in other Hebrew words one finds similar connections that are solid and well-established). Then, by metonymy, we have both _grounds of hope, reason to hope_ as well _things hoped for, outcome, _as per Brown-Driver-Briggs' Hebrew Biblical Dictionary.

Now, see that the New International Version chose the more positive meanings of both words: _hope _(while _expectation _may be also of fearful future events) and _future _(while _end _may be simply the ceasing of life and hope). I think St Jerome rendered _tikvah _as _patientia _because of its relation with hope, as we see in St Paul's Epistle: _"... tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope: And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us" _(Rm 5:3-5 KJ).

I cannot say why St Jerome chose _patientia _instead of _spes _or _exspectation_, but there is a clear correlation in meaning. Some experts say his knowledge on Hebrew was far from perfect and that often he produced loose renderings. Anyway, what is sure is that he was a forerunner in the field of translations from Hebrew - now, either his translation was imprecise here because of lack of specialized lexica that we have today, or he got some fine nuance from what he learned orally by rabbis that modern dictionaries lack. St Jerome has some important comments on what he learned orally and by writings of the time about the Hebrew word _almah _(crucial to the understanding of OT prophecies) that one may not find in any modern lexicon today.

Anyway, this is the end of the comment, in the expectation of being helpful in the present and in a better future.


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## Tom Greenhill

Grugno said:


> The problem is interesting indeed, but, first of all, may I ask you why do you compare the English version with the Latin one? Wouldn't be more proper to compare it to the original Hebrew one, that is the starting ground of the Latin version too? Maybe you can find in that language the key for the problem.



Right, I know its kind of weird to compare the Latin translation with the English translation of the original Hebrew Old Testament, but unfortunately I don't know anything about Hebrew.

My purpose in the first place was to practice my Latin via reading the Bible. What I did was to translate Latin sentences from a randomly selected chapter into English (with the assistance of Wiktionary), and then compare my translation with the English Bible.


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## Tom Greenhill

metaphrastes said:


> Yes, this is the only proper solution - and I have to note too that Hebrew in general allows room for more than one interpretation than Greek, so that we may find very different solutions for some verses or words in different translations.
> Then, the Hebrew text ends the verse by the words _acharit vetikvah_, literally, _end and expectation_, as we find in a note to King James version. King James itself reads _to give you an expected end_, that is some kind of interpretation of the Hebrew wording, and the note tries to give a more literal reading.
> 
> Now, seeing each word _acharit _means both _after part, end, _as well _end, issue, event; latter, future time; _and also _posterity. _One has to figure out what of these meanings makes more sense in the context of the sentence and the book itself.
> 
> And _tikvah _means concretely _cord. _Hebrew words have in general a very concret sense, and then figurative usages. Then, we get _hope, expectation_, maybe because a _cord _may be the only hope to go out from a pit, say (though this last guess is speculative, but in other Hebrew words one finds similar connections that are solid and well-established). Then, by metonymy, we have both _grounds of hope, reason to hope_ as well _things hoped for, outcome, _as per Brown-Driver-Briggs' Hebrew Biblical Dictionary.
> 
> Now, see that the New International Version chose the more positive meanings of both words: _hope _(while _expectation _may be also of fearful future events) and _future _(while _end _may be simply the ceasing of life and hope). I think St Jerome rendered _tikvah _as _patientia _because of its relation with hope, as we see in St Paul's Epistle: _"... tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope: And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us" _(Rm 5:3-5 KJ).
> 
> I cannot say why St Jerome chose _patientia _instead of _spes _or _exspectation_, but there is a clear correlation in meaning. Some experts say his knowledge on Hebrew was far from perfect and that often he produced loose renderings. Anyway, what is sure is that he was a forerunner in the field of translations from Hebrew - now, either his translation was imprecise here because of lack of specialized lexica that we have today, or he got some fine nuance from what he learned orally by rabbis that modern dictionaries lack. St Jerome has some important comments on what he learned orally and by writings of the time about the Hebrew word _almah _(crucial to the understanding of OT prophecies) that one may not find in any modern lexicon today.
> 
> Anyway, this is the end of the comment, in the expectation of being helpful in the present and in a better future.



WOW! Thank you soooooo much!

So while the original Hebrew sentence was rather neutral (expectation & end), the New International Version Bible has adopted some positive words (hope & future) to interpreted it. And also it might be the case that the Latin word _patientia_ wasn't entirely the best translation of the original Hebrew word "expectation", and thus the Latin Bible and English Bible reads slightly different.

Thanks again, I believe your answer solves my question!


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## metaphrastes

Tom Greenhill said:


> My purpose in the first place was to practice my Latin via reading the Bible. What I did was to translate Latin sentences from a randomly selected chapter into English (with the assistance of Wiktionary), and then compare my translation with the English Bible


Yes, I see, this is a good exercise - though it may be misleading. If the verse is already familiar to you, it is hard to know how much are you indeed translating and how much you are just remembering after one or two words "rung a bell" in your memory.
Anyway, if you love Scriptures, it is much more compelling working on it than in other texts. Anyway, I would suggest comparing your own tentative translation with King James or, even better to this purpose, with Douay-Rheims that was translated directly from the Vulgata (though it passed by a thorough revision taking in account Hebrew and Greek readings, so that not always it sticks hardly to the Latin and then you may find similar disparities, though less frequent).

It is not hard to find the Douay-Rheims Bible online, if you want. Besides that, there are a few sites that have both English versions as well original texts linked to Strong's Hebrew and Greek dictionary numbers, so that you may check the original words when before some perplexing issue.

PS: take in account also that if you want to work on the Psalms, the Vulgata almost always contains the Gallican Psaltery, translated from the Greek LXX and not the Hebrew. Probably due to the intensive liturgical usage of the Psalms, St Jerome's last version that was based on the Hebrew never got acceptation and very rarely was ever printed - and when printed, as an addendum to the traditional version from the Greek.


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## Scholiast

Dear all



metaphrastes said:


> And _tikvah _means concretely _cord. _Hebrew words have in general a very concret sense



Metaphorically, and in the spirit of Old Testament theological _Heilsgeschichte_, the word could idiomatically be rendered in English as 'lifeline'.

Σ

Edited afterthought: the _NIV_ is a particularly bad modern translation of the Scriptures. It was done by, mainly, American evangelicals, some of them with only faint understanding of Hebrew.


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