# la rade de Lorient



## livvie

Hello,

I am not sure about the word 'rade'.

EG: La rade de Lorient...
Le port est idéalement situé dans la rade de Lorient... 
Site naturel protégé, la rade de Lorient...

I have been translating 'rade' as estuary but I am now having my doubts.

Maybe it should be 'roadstead' ??

Any help and explanations would be greatly appreciated as I can't work out the difference between estaury and roadstead.


Thanky


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## Aline Si

I think (but only I think) that a 'rade' is bigger than an 'estuaire'. And for an 'estuaire', there has to be a river, not for a 'rade'.


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## LART01

livvie said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am not sure about the word 'rade'.
> 
> EG: La rade de Lorient...
> Le port est idéalement situé dans la rade de Lorient...
> Site naturel protégé, la rade de Lorient...
> 
> I have been translating 'rade' as estuary but I am now having my doubts.
> 
> Maybe it should be 'roadstead' ??
> 
> Any help and explanations would be greatly appreciated as I can't work out the difference between estaury and roadstead.
> 
> 
> Thanky



Hi _Roadstead_ is probably the one. See Brest as an example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roadstead_of_Brest


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## Santana2002

I think estuary is incorrect, it's definitely got to have a river there.
The 'rade' is the whole harbour area, and while I have never heard of the word 'roadstead' before, the dictionary definition definitely corresponds to what it means.

'Bay' is probably a more common word which encompasses the harbour area and a bit more besides.


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## Aline Si

The entrance of a bay is supposed to be larger than the entrance of a roadstead though.


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## livvie

I have been trying to find a 'readable' map of the 'rade'.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Rade_de_Lorient_topographic_map-fr.svg


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## vsop44

It  seems  that  "rade"  is  a  word that  doesn't translate  well into English ...

I was corrected a  short while ago , translating   "rade"  by  harbour , 
which  I did not  challenge  since  "rade"  was  not  a key  word in the post . 

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2588178&p=13050116#post13050116

I read  that  Halifax N S  Canada , the  main  hub  of  the  Canadian  navy on  the  east  coast  was  one  of  the  best  natural  harbour  in the  world .
I compared  the  2 harbours  on a map , and  they are very much  alike . I  think   that "rade"  is a  natural  or  inner  harbour  and  not  an  estuary .


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## Omelette

The one ‘rade’ which I really know is ‘la rade de Marseille’ and I would call that ‘the bay’. Michelvar, or other Marseillais, might – or might not – confirm this.  The problem with ‘roadstead’ is that, though it may be technically correct, I think it’s quite rare. I’d never heard of it either.


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## livvie

vsop44 said:


> It  seems  that  "rade"  is  a  word that  doesn't translate  well into English ...
> 
> I was corrected a  short while ago , translating   "rade"  by  harbour ,
> which  I did not  challenge  since  "rade"  was  not  a key  word in the post .


I know this post!

Thanks for your replies.

I have been translating 'ports' as 'harbours' as they are not commercial ports but tourist spots, I could use 'marina' I suppose but I have been using that for 'port de plaisance'. These ports/harbours are located on the 'rade',  I have heard of roadstead and I too am worried that it is too technical. 

I think I have pickled my brains with this, there are two rivers, The Blavet and The Scorff that join at Lorient and enter the Atlantic Ocean via the 'rade de Lorient', blimey isn't that an estuary , elsewhere in the French document 'estuaire' is used (although not as alternative for 'rade de Lorient') so...I'm pickled!


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## wildan1

Omelette said:


> The problem with ‘roadstead’ is that, though it may be technically correct, I think it’s quite rare. I’d never heard of it either.


This is also true in AE--I have never heard the term either.

Go with _bay _(larger), _harbor_ or _port_. The last two suggest ships and transportation. The first simply describes a body of water partially surrounded by a land mass.
_
A marina_ has to have pleasure boats and docks--it doesn't describe the geographic feature itself.


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## petit1

The problem with "estuary" is that you can't say "the estuary of Lorient " because Lorient is a town not a river.

Definition of "rade" in my Hachette dictionary:
vaste bassin naturel comportant une libre issue vers la mer.

I have looked for an English map of another "rade" *the rade de Brest *which is similar. It is named "*harbour of *Brest".
following link:
http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/photolib/maps/Map of The Harbour of Brest 1906.htm


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## Keith Bradford

_La rade _in English is, technically, either *the roads *or *the roadstead*, and there's no getting away from it.

However, the French word is better-known than the English not least because it's the proper name in several locations; for example la Rade de Brest is never called l'Estuaire de Brest.

So the translator has to decide: do I go for *Lorient Roads *(like the name of the oil painting "_Three-masted sailing ships in Plymouth Roads_"), or do I approximate to *the Lorient Estuary *or *Lorient Bay*?

No way is it _port _or _harbour_. That's one tiny man-made corner of the whole.


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## Santana2002

Wikipedia says: "_The Scorff ... joins the Blavet in Lorient, where it enters the Ocean in the *Roadstead *of Lorient_" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorff)

Personally, however, unless the translation needs to be technically correct, I would voluntarily choose 'Lorient Bay' as a good, and easily understandable, equivalent.


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## Omelette

Yes. And personally, I don’t think ‘Lorient estuary’ is an option, because, as petit1 points out, ‘Lorient’ is a town, not a river. And ,to the best of my knowledge, estuaries are usually named after the river: the Thames estuary, the Rhône estuary.


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## livvie

Thanks for all your replies and some very good points, my head seems clearer!

Taking into consideration everything, (the universe included!) I am going to use 'bay' for 'rade'.  I am probably going to spend about three days trying to edit a PDF document now but thank you all again for your help.


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## broglet

Without wishing to deny Keith's undoubted technical correctness I have never heard of the word 'roadstead' and I'm fairly sure that most English people will not have the foggiest clue what it means.  Nor have I ever heard 'roads' used in this sense. I agree with livvie that 'bay' is the best all-purpose translation - especially if she wants her readers to know what the word means.


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## Keith Bradford

broglet said:


> ... I have never heard of the word 'roadstead' and I'm fairly sure that most English people will not have the foggiest clue what it means. Nor have I ever heard 'roads' used in this sense...



Ah, Broglet, you've not lived!

Roadstead was coined around 1500, used increasingly in the 18th and 19th centuries and then diminished to near-vanishing by 2000.  But it still gets half a million hits on Google.  Like a _bonaventure topcastle _or a _quadrantal corrector_, it's a technical maritime term and I'm sure that sailors (I'm not one) will have come across it.


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## Langton's Aunt

And the wide part of the estuary of the Fal in Cornwall is "Carrick Roads"


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## broglet

Keith Bradford said:


> Ah, Broglet, you've not lived!
> 
> Roadstead was coined around 1500, used increasingly in the 18th and 19th centuries and then diminished to near-vanishing by 2000.  But it still gets half a million hits on Google.  Like a _bonaventure topcastle _or a _quadrantal corrector_, it's a technical maritime term and I'm sure that sailors (I'm not one) will have come across it.


I asked a sailing friend of mine if he ever sits in his bonaventure topcastle adjusting his quadrantal correctors while approaching a roadstead.  He had no idea what I was on about.


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## livvie

Hello there,

After a lot of research and talking to French sailors who took the time to draw me pictures of why a 'rade' can't be a bay and how it is nearly an estuary but not quite, I have decided that I am going to use 'roadstead'! I do usually try to use the correct word even if I think that it's not commonly known, I always think that if people don't know what it means they will look it up in the dictionary and learn something new!  There is not a ton of 'rades' in the world so I don't think I want to be responsible for turning one into a bay!

That being said, I've have a version of the text with 'bay' and ' a version with 'roadstead', just have to wait and see how the client sees it!

Thank you all again.


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## wildan1

I think if you insist on using _roadstead_, livvie, you owe your readers a footnote or parenthetical "translation"--this just isn't a word that even well educated people know if the readership is general.


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## broglet

wildan1 said:


> I think if you insist on using _roadstead_, livvie, you owe your readers a footnote or parenthetical "translation"--this just isn't a word that even well educated people know if the readership is general.


I agree.  Not even my well-educated sailor friend has heard of the word roadstead.


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## livvie

Oh blimey!

I'm not sure how a footnote will look on a tourist guide and it would be quite long, not just a word or two. Unfortunately, I have already translated similar documents where I have used 'estuary' for 'rade' so I am not sure whether to carry on with my error or change it for 'bay' which is also wrong.

Geographically speaking it is more like an estuary than a bay...decisions, decisions.

And if I use 'The Lorient Roads, beyond the harbour' as a title then use 'Lorient Roads' in the rest of the text??


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## Keith Bradford

Yes, I think you should gloss it.  _...the Lorient Roads[tead], where ships can anchor safely outside the harbour_... or something like that.  Capitalisation will do the rest, and everybody will have learnt a new word, which is nice.


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## livvie

Thanky, I think I'm at peace with this solution 

I have used 'The Lorient Roadstead, beyond the harbour...' as a title and in the first paragraph I have added the definition, so no footnote, I try to avoid footnotes.

'The Lorient Roadstead, or the Lorient Roads, is a sheltered body of water outside the harbour where ships may lie at anchor to seek shelter. A multi-faceted waterway in the heart of southern Brittany...'


I am going to use 'roadstead' instead of roads, although I have also said 'also known as Lorient Roads', as there are more Google hits for Lorient Roadstead than Lorient Roads.


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## broglet

livvie said:


> Thanky, I think I'm at peace with this solution
> 
> I have used 'The Lorient Roadstead, beyond the harbour...' as a title and in the first paragraph I have added the definition, so no footnote, I try to avoid footnotes.
> 
> 'The Lorient Roadstead, or the Lorient Roads, is a sheltered body of water outside the harbour where ships may lie at anchor to seek shelter. A multi-faceted waterway in the heart of southern Brittany...'
> 
> 
> I am going to use 'roadstead' instead of roads, although I have also said 'also known as Lorient Roads', as there are more Google hits for Lorient Roadstead than Lorient Roads.


There are no Google hits at all for Lorient Roadstead (capitalised as though it is a proper name) which is the same number as for Lorient Roads.  Yours could be the first.  They both sound excuciatingly odd to me ... and it doesn't seem to make sense to coin a new proper name.

Why not just leave it in French? 'The _Rade de Lorient_ is a sheltered body of water [outside the harbour] where ships may lie at anchor' (repetition of shelter not needed)

By the way, I'm not sure 'outside the harbour' is correct.  Surely the harbour is in the Rade de Lorient'


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## livvie

Bottoms! I see my moment of 'peace' has shattered.

Broglet, you may be right about capitalising roadstead which is a shame as I have sent the document back. I have seen 'The Thames Estuary' and sometimes 'The Thames estuary', I am hoping this capitalisation is the least of my worries!


Everywhere that I have looked defines roadstead as being 'outside the harbour'.

'A roadstead is a place outside a harbour where a ship can lie at anchor. It is an enclosed area with an opening to the sea, narrower than a bay or gulf. It has a surface that cannot be confused with an estuary. It can be created artificially by jetties or dikes. Natural roadsteads offer shelter from storms and are frequently used for naval bases.'


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## broglet

If roadsteads are really defined as being 'outside the harbour' (and I am not entirely convinced) that could be another reason for not  using the word. In your first post you quote "Le port est idéalement situé dans la rade de Lorient..." clearly implying that "le port est dans la rade".

Anyway, what was wrong with my previous suggestion?


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## Santana2002

You could have used "_Lorient Roadstead: the harbour and beyond_" as your title, which would have made it clear to those of us who have never heard the word before, just what the document was talking about.  Too late now, however, if you have already returned your translation.


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## livvie

The reason that I have used 'roadstead/roads' is that the French sailors that I spoke to, and asked advice from, were none too pleased that I was going to change their 'rade' into a 'bay', or anything else for that matter.   

The fact is that 'roadstead/roads' exists in English, so I prefer not to leave it in French, and as I have defined the word in the text the reader will immediately have its definition and as I said before I think it's good when people learn a new word.  Maybe once they have read the definition they will go 'oh that's why Carrick Roads/Castle Roads/Royal Roads etc' are so-called.

I am very grateful for all the help I have received, please don't think otherwise, but at the end of the day my 'brainstorming' time is limited and a decision had to be made.


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## broglet

full marks for the amount of thought you have given this livvie - conscientiousness all too rare in the translation world


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## Keith Bradford

*Outside the harbour *is perfectly good.  The roadstead is the area of sheltered water immediately outside the mouth of the harbour. Indeed, one roadstead may be outside several harbours. If I'm not mistaken, Lorient harbour, Lorient submarine base, Port-Louis and Locmiquélic all give onto the Lorient Roadstead (which is also in fact the Blavet Estuary).


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## livvie

Aw shucks, thanks broglet.

Keith, I came across the Blavet Estuary only today in my research, it doesn't seemed to be used as frequently as the Lorient Roadstead. Strange, because I know the River Blavet and the Blavet Valley but I had never heard of the Blavet Estuary. 

As I am in the Lorient area I am sticking to 'roadstead', staying loyal to my French friends and keeping their rade a wee bit special by using a word that most people have never heard of!


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## Santana2002

So 5 years on ...
I have just been reading James A Michener's "Hawaii", where frequent reference is made to "Lahaina Roads", in relation to the Harbour and bay area off the island of Maui.  There's even a Wikipedia entry about Lahaina Roads.  Either Mr Michener had a richer vocabularly than I (in fact he most certainly had), or "roads" is a common term that I had never come across before reading this thread.  In either case I thought it would be interesting to note here that Keith Bradford is perfectly right and "roads" is the correct translation for "rade", whether or not the word is commonly used.


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## petit1

It is probably right. I looked for the origin of the word "rade" and someone wrote:
"Ç_a vient *de l'ancien anglais "rad" qui a donné "road"*, "rade" et "route_"."
Wiktionnaire writes:
_(Nom 1)_ _(1474)_ Apparait [1] avec le sens de « mouillage à l'abri des vents et des lames » — (_Ordonnance de Louis XI pour la formation d'un port et château fort à la Hague_) ; _(1914)_ _en rade_ « seul, à l'abandon ». Emprunté au moyen anglais _rade_ attesté au même sens depuis 1320, issu du vieil anglais _rád_ (« chevauchée, voyage, passage ») étymon de _road_ (« voie, chemin, route »), et _raid_.


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## mehoul

Keith Bradford said:


> No way is it _port _or _harbour_. That's one tiny man-made corner of the whole.



it is not that simple, because "rade" is never used for a landscape feature which is not used as a port.


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