# Saints - Are they exclusive?



## katie_here

In another thread, I saw mention of Saints not being specific to a country, but to a religion. 

The patron saint of England is St. George, and so there will be places and streets named after him. There are other patron saints of other countries, for example, Ireland has St. Patrick, Scotland has St. Andrew and Wales has St. David. 

Do other countries have patron saints and are these saints revered all over the world, or are they specific to each country?


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## alinapopi

Romania's patron saint is St. Andrew = Sf. Andrei (november 30). But not all the people know it and we don't celebrate it like Spanish people celebrate his patron saint, for example.


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## katie_here

That's interesting, so Romania and Scotland share a patron saint.  I wonder if any other countries share as well?


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## rocamadour

Hi! 
In Italy every region, every town and almost every single village has its own patron saint.
As a country, we have two : san Francesco d'Assisi and santa Caterina da Siena. 
Here an interesting wiki page: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lista_di_santi_patroni_cattolici_%28nazioni%29 (only catholic saints).
Ciao!


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## Topsie

It appears that there there's a saint for almost everything!
http://www.luckymojo.com/patronsaints.html


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## cuchuflete

From the point of view of the national government, the U.S. has no saint.  The Constitution specifically forbids the government from doing anything to impede religion, and in the same sentence says that it may do nothing to establish a state religion.



> Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;...


From the viewpoint of any of the thousands of religions in the country, there may be one or more beatified persons associated with the nation, but popular culture has not broadly accepted any such association.  

In short, we have no national saints.


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## DearPrudence

I don't think we have any national saints either in France. Nope. Our national bank holiday is 14 July (Bastille Day), that's all.

(On the other hand, every day it's a saint's day (?). 
For instance, June 1: Saint Justin. June 2: Ste Blandine,...
You will find this information on approximately every calendar and diary. Just to say we are not allergic to saints )


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## palomnik

cuchuflete said:


> From the point of view of the national government, the U.S. has no saint. The Constitution specifically forbids the government from doing anything to impede religion, and in the same sentence says that it may do nothing to establish a state religion.
> 
> From the viewpoint of any of the thousands of religions in the country, there may be one or more beatified persons associated with the nation, but popular culture has not broadly accepted any such association.
> 
> In short, we have no national saints.


 
Perhaps from the point of view of the US Government, cuchu. From the point of view of the Catholic Church, the Virgin of the Immaculate Conception is the official patron of the USA, and the cathedral in Washington is dedicated to her.

I believe the Orthodox Church has one too - St. Herman of Alaska, if memory serves, but I'm not sure about that one.

Since most other religious groups don't pay much attention to sainthood and canonization - the Episcopal Church does something similar, but it's not very important to the denomination overall - I suppose those two pretty much complete the field.


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## danielfranco

I guess Mexicans go for the whole she-bang: no saints for us, thank you very much, we've got a Virgin, if it please the court.

The Virgin of Guadalupe



EDIT — Look, I've found a link with an index of patron saints. Enjoy.

http://www.catholic.org/saints/


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## Topsie

DearPrudence said:


> I don't think we have any national saints either in France. Nope. Our national bank holiday is 14 July (Bastille Day), that's all.
> 
> (On the other hand, every day it's a saint's day (?).
> For instance, June 1: Saint Justin. June 2: Ste Blandine,...
> You will find this information on approximately every calendar and diary. Just to say we are not allergic to saints )


I didn't think there was a particular saint for France, but apparently there is: Saint Denis!
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_is_the_patron_saint_of_France


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## alinapopi

In Spain it's the same thing like in Italy: they have a lot of Saints. But, what most surprised me at the beginning of my staying in Spain is that here the Virgin has a lot of names: virgin of Pain, Virgin of Joyce, etc... I think they refer to the same (Virgin is only one), but, depending on every village, etc, they call her with different names.


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## dante08

katie_here said:


> In another thread, I saw mention of Saints not being specific to a country, but to a religion.
> 
> The patron saint of England is St. George, and so there will be places and streets named after him. There are other patron saints of other countries, for example, Ireland has St. Patrick, Scotland has St. Andrew and Wales has St. David.


St. George is the patron saint of loads of places... countries, regions and cities. Other than England, Catalonia is possibly the place in Europe most well-known for having him as a patron saint. Apart from that, he is also the patron saint of various activities, professions and even diseases (you can check out the full list on Wikipedia). But to be honest I think that the above could apply to most patron saints.


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## rocamadour

Topsie said:


> I didn't think there was a particular saint for France, but apparently there is: Saint Denis!


Hi Topsie! 
And what about Saint Jeanne d'Arc? Isn't she your patron saint?  (besides being also your national hero, if I'm not wrong...)
Ciao!


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## DearPrudence

Schools are named after her (Joan of Arc, not Topsie ) but she's not our saint patron. I really didn't think we had one. Never heard of Saint Denis & I don't know what day he's supposed to be celebrated... :-/


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## bb008

Hola

La patrona de Venezuela es la Virgen de Coromoto, aunque como pueblo muy creyente que somos entre un 80%-90% católicos, hay muchos santos y ánimas quienes siempre tiene quien le recé y le ponga un cabito de vela, y de verdad tenemos mucho por que pedir, las cosa que pasan en este país es para tener un altar gigante en tu casa (y los hay, muchos).


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## Topsie

rocamadour said:


> Hi Topsie!
> And what about Saint Jeanne d'Arc? Isn't she your patron saint?  (besides being also your national hero, if I'm not wrong...)
> Ciao!


As a Brit living in France, I'm constantly accused of being (personally!) responsible for burning Joan of Arc at the stake ...


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## Orreaga

danielfranco said:


> I guess Mexicans go for the whole she-bang: no saints for us, thank you very much, we've got a Virgin, if it please the court.
> 
> The Virgin of Guadalupe


Well, of course Our Lady *is* a saint, and Guadalupe is considered the patron saint of all of the Americas, including the US. In fact, a common bumpersticker in New Mexico is "In Guad We Trust." 

But going back to the original question, if you are talking about saints officially canonized by the Roman Catholic Church, they are not geographically exclusive, no. "Saint" is a spiritual concept and therefore doesn't recognize physical boundaries, although many saints do have a very particular local character.


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## Nunty

It's a bird... it's a plane... it's Super Nun!  Sorry.

Thought I might chime in here with a little specialized knowledge. The Catholic liturgical calendar, including saints' days and such, was overhauled in the 1980s. In the new system, there is a general calendar for what is called "the universal Church", i.e. Catholics in all places, and there are special calendars for relgious "families" (Benedictines, Carmelites, Franciscans, etc.) and for countries or regions. 

Any saint who is canonized, i.e. who is called Saint Thus and Such may be publically venerated anywhere. Blesseds (those who are beatified, called Blessed So and So) are publically venerated only in those places where they appear on the local liturgical calendar, unless they are among the few who are in the universal calendar.

For instance. St. John the Baptist is the patron saint of Canada but he is venerated everywhere around the world. There are three (or four maybe) patrons of Europe, but most of them are venerated everywhere. The whole thing gets even more complicated when we start talking about feasts and memorials and Mass with Gloria or with Gloria and Credo or just with a special Preface, but no Gloria...

All that is the formal side of things. In popular piety, of course, all bets are off. People venerate whoever they want to, however they want, wherever they want to and whenever they want to.

I recently learned that Our Lady of the Immaculate Conception is the patron of the US and there is a "national shrine" to her in Washington DC. I don't think many people know that.

Thank you for your attention. Class is out.


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## Miguelillo 87

First of all Thanks to the sister, Nun-translator, Your knowledge has clear my mind of many doubts I use to have.



danielfranco said:


> I guess Mexicans go for the whole she-bang: no saints for us, thank you very much, we've got a Virgin, if it please the court.
> 
> The Virgin of Guadalupe


 

Abour that my paisan, I agree La Guadalupana is omnipresent in Mexico and in all LatinAmerica is known; but we have to remeber, as many have said, each town has its own sain, not even town, neighbourhoods!!!! 

For example here in the capita, each 28 of every month is celebrated in San Hipólito's church, the San Judas Tadeo day. And it's really impressive how many people go to the church and they are carry its natural size saint and all the stuff.

Answering your question, if we have a "exclusivity contract" with them, ¡NO! 

Guadalupe Virgen, it's not only mexican but of all Americans!!!! I't's right she appears in our lands, but with the mission of take care and bless all the habitants of this continent.


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## Sepia

DearPrudence said:


> I don't think we have any national saints either in France. Nope. Our national bank holiday is 14 July (Bastille Day), that's all.
> 
> (On the other hand, every day it's a saint's day (?).
> For instance, June 1: Saint Justin. June 2: Ste Blandine,...
> You will find this information on approximately every calendar and diary. Just to say we are not allergic to saints )



We don't have any in Germany either - would also be pretty weird in a republic that never had a state religion.

Probably the same thing with France - Napoleon (the third?) changed a lot of things in France and even in Germany during the occupation - partly things that people are still quite happy about.


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## Nunty

One more little comment. The whole thing of patron saints and saints' days is religious. Every country has a patron saint. In countries with wholly secular governments, there can still be patrons; it's just that their days are not secular or civic holidays.


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## Miguelillo 87

Nun-Translator said:


> One more little comment. The whole thing of patron saints and saints' days is religious. Every country has a patron saint. In countries with wholly secular governments, there can still be patrons; it's just that their days are not secular or civic holidays.


 

Every country????? Even those which are not or weren't catholics? As Iran, Irak, China?????????


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## Nunty

Yes, every country. Like I said, it's a Church thing, not a civil affair and in some places, not even a folkloric one. I don't know why the Church thinks it's so important, but then again, they didn't ask me.


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## Miguelillo 87

Nun-Translator said:


> Yes, every country. Like I said, it's a Church thing, not a civil affair and in some places, not even a folkloric one. I don't know why the Church thinks it's so important, but then again, they didn't ask me.


 
Sorry if I ask too much, but Is there a special rule for design the saints? 

As far as I know (for my cathequesis classes) the church decide the saint, because He or She appeared in this place. As the Virgen of Fatima, Guadalupe, of San Juan de los Lagos, Vírgen dle Carmen,,and all this stuff. 

Do u know something?


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## katie_here

Sepia said:


> We don't have any in Germany either - would also be pretty weird in a republic that never had a state religion.
> 
> .


 
Not that I didn't believe you!!!!,  but I just thought I would google "Patron Saints of Germany" and came across this... 

*PATRON SAINT INDEX TOPIC*

*Germany* 

Boniface
George
Michael
Our Lady of Altotting
Our Lady of Kevelaer
Peter Canisius
Swithbert
http://saints.sqpn.com/pst00320.htm​There is this information on St. Boniface 

On 11 June, 1874, Pope Pius IX extended the celebration to the entire world. Brewers, tailors, and file-cutters have chosen St. Boniface as their patron, also various cities in Germany.


Obviously, you know your country better than I do, but do you think this is true?


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## Nunty

Miguelillo 87 said:


> Sorry if I ask too much, but Is there a special rule for design the saints?
> 
> As far as I know (for my cathequesis classes) the church decide the saint, because He or She appeared in this place. As the Virgen of Fatima, Guadalupe, of San Juan de los Lagos, Vírgen dle Carmen,,and all this stuff.
> 
> Do u know something?



I don't want to pull this conversation entirely out of the CD scope, so I won't answer that in the forum, but you're welcome to PM me to discuss it further.


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## rocamadour

katie_here said:


> Obviously, you know your country better than I do, but do you think this is true?


 
According to wiki (see link in my first post, #4) this is true! And we should add saint Oscar, too...


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## sokol

rocamadour said:


> In Italy every region, every town and almost every single village has its own patron saint.


Same here in Austria: each church even has its own patron saint, and the local annual festival called 'Kirtag' is the festival of this saint.


rocamadour said:


> As a country, we have two : san Francesco d'Assisi and santa Caterina da Siena.


That we don't have in Austria. But there are 'regional saints', that is each 'Bundesland' (= 'part-state' of Austria, not quite like the US states but slightly more than the Italian regions except for the autonomous ones which would be near our 'Bundesländer') has its own saint: Salzburg has Saint Ruprecht, Burgenland has Saint Martin, while Lower Austria + Upper Austria + Vienna once had the same one (Saint Leopold) but recently (only in 2004) Upper Austria declared Saint Florian being the second (or 'new', or 'main') saint of the Bundesland (and so on ...).

The saint of the region is a holiday in school but a workday for all working people; it is not greatly celebrated, not even by the church, and rather a token saint, a symbol for the region. Many people don't even know exactly what their regional saint person is (that is, many people forget after they leave school, and when they have children of their own having a holiday on the saints' day they again get to know what 'their' saint is called like).




katie_here said:


> Not that I didn't believe you!!!!,  but I just thought I would google "Patron Saints of Germany" and came across this...


There certainly exist 'regional saints' also in Germany, google for "Landesheiliger" plus the German name of one of their Bundesländer, and you get many google hits, like this one:
http://www.google.at/search?hl=de&client=firefox-a&channel=s&rls=org.mozilla%3Ade%3Aofficial&hs=0XZ&q=landesheiliger+bayern&btnG=Suche&meta=

But I have no real insight into the German regional saints, I know of the Austrian ones only.



Ah yes, something additional:
Some saints really *have *national significance, as is the case with *Saint Patrick in Ireland.*
We don't have a saint with so much significance as Saint Patrick here in Austria - not even nearly, not even close, and not even as far as the regional saints are concerned; nor is Saint George for the English, or is he? But Franciscus of Assisi might be such one for the Italians - or what do you Italians say?


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## katie_here

sokol said:


> Ah yes, something additional:
> Some saints really *have *national significance, as is the case with *Saint Patrick in Ireland.  *


 

St. Patrick seems to be celebrated more in England than our own saint, George, but that might have something to do with the drinking all day culture, than anything else. 



			
				sokol said:
			
		

> nor is Saint George for the English, or is he? But Franciscus of Assisi might be such one for the Italians - or what do you Italians say?


 


> St. George is the patron saint of Aragon, Catalonia, England, Ethiopia, Georgia, Greece, Palestine, Portugal, and Russia, as well as the cities of Amersfoort, Beirut, Bteghrine, Cáceres, Ferrara, Freiburg, Genoa, Ljubljana, Lod and Moscow, as well as a wide range of professions, organisations and disease sufferers.


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## rocamadour

sokol said:


> Some saints really *have *national significance, as is the case with *Saint Patrick in Ireland.*
> We don't have a saint with so much significance as Saint Patrick here in Austria - not even nearly, not even close, and not even as far as the regional saints are concerned; nor is Saint George for the English, or is he? But Franciscus of Assisi might be such one for the Italians - or what do you Italians say?


 
Well, san Francesco hasn't such a *national *significance, in my opinion, or at least not as saint Patrick in Ireland (or saint Jeanne d'Arc in France). Maybe sant'Antonio da Padova (although he is not the patron saint of the whole country) has more. 
Anyway I would say that we are more strongly linked to regional and local saints than to "national" ones (just think about san Gennaro in Napoli , or sant'Ambrogio in Milan...), also because they are associated to feasts and holiday: don't forget that in Italy each town has holiday (no school, shops closed) in the day of patron saint.


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## alexacohen

Topsie said:


> As a Brit living in France, I'm constantly accused of being (personally!) responsible for burning Joan of Arc at the stake ...



As a Jew living in a city which is a Roman Catholic Holy Shrine, I don't need to tell you what I have been accused of personally doing.

Now seriously. The same that has been said for Mexico is true of Spain. Every city and town and village has its own saint.

Santiago de Compostela has two: Saint James and Our _-or should I say their?-_ Lady of the Ascensión (I have no idea how to translate it). 

Madrid has the Virgin of the Almudena (that's funny because Almudena is actually Arabic: _al-mudayna, _the citadel).

Seville the Virgin of the Macarena.

Cádiz - or somewhere near Cádiz - The Virgin of the Regla. 

And so on. Needless to say, my patron saint is better than the next-neighbouring-village patron saint.


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## MarcB

Miguelillo 87 said:


> Every country????? Even those which are not or weren't catholics? As Iran, Irak, China?????????


 In those countries there are Christian minorities including Catholics,Chaldeans,Eastern Orthodox some Protestants and others.


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## sokol

katie_here said:


> St. Patrick seems to be celebrated more in England than our own saint, George, but that might have something to do with the drinking all day culture, than anything else.



Come to think of it, St Patrick's Day even here in Austria is _more _celebrated than the local saints, at least in the larger towns, and certainly this is true for Vienna.

In these days there exist quite a number of (Irish and Not-Irish) pubs here, and all of them celebrate St Patrick's Day - while in the ten years I am living in Vienna I haven't seen a _single _fiesta for the local patron of St Leopold. (There certainly are masses in each church in Vienna on St Leopold's day is what I guess - I can't tell for certain as I don't go there.)


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## Outsider

I had to look this up in Wikipedia. Apparently, the patron saint of Portugal is St. George -- as well as the archangel Gabriel! (Does _he_ count as a saint? -- this must be an error!)

I had no idea. There is no tradition of celebrating the national saint. There is, on the other hand, a strong tradition of celebrating local saints. As a matter of fact, June is the month of the _santos populares_ festivities.

P.S. Oh, Katie's link has more saints!



katie_here said:


> http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12134b.htm


There's of course Our Lady of Fatima, as well. I hesitated to suggest her because I couldn't remember her being canonized -- silly me.


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## sokol

Outsider said:


> As a matter of fact, June is the month of the _santos populares_ festivities.



In Austria the local saints' festivities are not concentrated on any month, the fiesta will take place inevitably when the saint has his or her name day (or more precisely, usually on the sunday afterwards), and these are called 'Kirtag' here in Austria; essentially they are a small street fair.
In some villages they are quite an event, in some however they aren't really much more than a few stands where cheap children's toys and sweets and some other merchandise are sold.

But this only goes for *local *saints - saints of a village or town, or even of some district of Vienna (the neighbourhood of Neustift in Vienna is famous for its 'Kirtag', also the Viennese district of Simmering has its 'Kirtag', and so on: but only the 'outer' districts of Vienna have them, I think, none of the inner city districts).
*Regional *saints - 'Bundesländer'-saints - aren't celebrated like that, apart from masses dedicated to them and school children celebrating the day they're having off school.


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## javargasdom

Outsider said:


> I had to look this up in Wikipedia. Apparently, the patron saint of Portugal is St. George -- as well as the archangel Gabriel! (Does _he_ count as a saint? -- this must be an error!)
> 
> I had no idea. There is no tradition of celebrating the national saint. There is, on the other hand, a strong tradition of celebrating local saints. As a matter of fact, June is the month of the _santos populares_ festivities.
> 
> P.S. Oh, Katie's link has more saints!
> 
> There's of course Our Lady of Fatima, as well. I hesitated to suggest her because I couldn't remember her being canonized -- silly me.


 
Yes, Outsider, St. Gabriel, St. Michael, and St. Raphael, and St. Uriel. There are some more archangels in other religions, whose names I don't remember, but at least those four, that are named in The Bible, are considered among the saints.

If you hapen to travel around Spain -shouldn't I include Portugal in the trip?- during the spring, summer, and autumn, you wouldn't need Google to have a list of all the Saints and Virgins. You would only miss those who are celebrated during the rest of the year... Not many, but not less worthy...


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## Mariaguadalupe

cuchuflete said:


> From the point of view of the national government, the U.S. has no saint.


 
This is also true for Mexico since the late 19th century when state and church separated, however, on Dec 12 you will find most business have had to close because it is Our Lady of Guadalupe Day, especially, government offices.


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## Topsie

sokol said:


> Come to think of it, St Patrick's Day even here in Austria is _more _celebrated than the local saints, ....


In France too! Even some _cafés de village_ have special St. Patrick's day evenings with Guinness, Jameson's and Irish music!


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## javargasdom

Topsie said:


> It appears that there there's a saint for almost everything!
> http://www.luckymojo.com/patronsaints.html


 
A very through list, Topsie. Merci bien.

But: As born in Madrid, I have to protest, though, for at least one of the entries in the list:

   --The Patron Saint for the farmers is St. Isi*dr*o (XI Century). He moonlights also as Patron Saint for Madrid, where he was a farm worker, very pious and reputed for growing wonderful crops. No wonder (or yes, wonder):  while he was down on his knees in prayer, two angels were guiding the oxen pulling the plough and then, sowing the land.

It is not a matter of mistyping but of different saints.

St. Isi*dor*o, was bishop os Seville (VII Century) after his uncle St. Leander. He was also a brother to three other saints. He was a philosopher, expert in laws, historian and from a whealthy
family (and, as one may suspect, very respected in Rome). Not much to do with farmers.


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## moura

Hi everybody,

Just a small contribution to history of Saints festivities in Portugal. 
Besides de June Saints, the biggest event in what concerns Saints festivities, evolving open-air popular festivals, dances, songs and last but not least, sardines (!), there are other popular day. One of them is S. Martinho day, on the 11th November.

I think that the origin of this festivity is based on S. Martinho being patron of wine producers, together with the 11th November being the end of harvest time in agricultural calendar, when people began to eat what they had planted.

Anyway this is the day to drink "agua-pé" (_rum or firewater, _I am not sure of the best translation) and eat roasted chestnuts. A warm tradition in the beginning of more cold days – familiar, cosy and comfortable. 

P.S. -  S. Martinho = St. Martin
P.S.2 - there is even a popular verse for S. Martinho day: At St. Martin day, you go to the cellar and taste the wine (Em _dia de S. Martinho, vai à adega e prova o vinho_)


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## Chaska Ñawi

Nun-Translator said:


> For instance. St. John the Baptist is the patron saint of Canada but he is venerated everywhere around the world.



Who knew?  

Here we associate St. Jean Baptiste with Quebec, where June 24th is known as la fête nationale and is celebrated instead of July 1st (Canada Day).  The sovereignty movement always has a big parade, and the whole city is draped in blue and white (colours of the provincial flag) for the occasion.  There is no reference whatever to the saint.  

In highland Bolivia San Juan corresponds with the end of the harvest, and the hills sparkle with bonfires.  Nowadays with the revival of Inca traditions, the bonfires also take place during the Bolivian winter solstice.  San Juan probably gained ground in the first place (as in many other cultures) because of its proximity to the existing ceremonies surrounding the solstice.


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## sokol

moura said:


> At St. Martin day, you go to the cellar and taste the wine (Em _dia de S. Martinho, vai à adega e prova o vinho_)



I hope you aren't too disappointed that St Martin's day isn't exclusively Portuguese but also something special in Austria. 
(Which just came to my attention because you mentioned him; there really are so many traditions attached in _some _way to some saints here really.)

In the eastern regions of Austria also on St Martin's day the 'new wine' ('Heuriger' = this-year's-wine, so to speak) is consegrated by a priest and then tasted.

Also in connection with Saint Martin is the 'Martinigansl' = St Martin's goose: many people eat goose on this day. And there are other traditions attached to St Martin in some regions, it is a very popular saint here in Austria, especially in the east where there are many vineyards.


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## danielfranco

Orreaga said:


> Well, of course Our Lady *is* a saint, […]




Wait!
Wait, wait…
Wait wait wait wait!

I don't get it: How can a Virgin _apparition_ be a *saint*????
I thought that in order to become a saint you had to have been a person, and with the officially recognized three-miracle (or has it been discounted to two?) requirement you could be canonized as a saint.
And I thought "virgins" were the apparitions of the original Virgin Mary (or Miriam, whatever transliteration you prefer)…

I mean, if that's the way it works, that's fine, but I would have thought that an apparition had to be, I don't know, what?, at least worth 3.86 saints, or some similar exchange.

Ah, well, what do I know?
D


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## Outsider

danielfranco said:


> I don't get it: How can a Virgin _apparition_ be a *saint*????


It's not the apparition that is regarded as a saint. It's the Virgin Mary herself.

The Virgin of Guadalupe, or Our Lady of Fátima, are just multiple _manifestations_ of the Virgin Mary. This is why my own confusion earlier in the thread was so silly. I was searching my memory for the canonization of Our Lady of Fátima, when of course Our Lady was canonized a rather long time ago. I guess I must have confused her temporarily with sister Lúcia.


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## alexacohen

sokol said:


> In the eastern regions of Austria also on St Martin's day the 'new wine' ('Heuriger' = this-year's-wine, so to speak) is consegrated by a priest and then tasted.


Oops, I forgot the Galician San Martiño. I don't remember now if it is a big D-Day with lots of celebrations, but I know it is the day when the pigs are killed. 
That means celebration at home, once the pig is killed, cut and salted and stored away in big pantries.

(Possibly that is the reason I forgot all about it)


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## javargasdom

sokol said:


> I hope you aren't too disappointed that St Martin's day isn't exclusively Portuguese but also something special in Austria.
> (Which just came to my attention because you mentioned him; there really are so many traditions attached in _some _way to some saints here really.)
> 
> In the eastern regions of Austria also on St Martin's day the 'new wine' ('Heuriger' = this-year's-wine, so to speak) is consegrated by a priest and then tasted.
> 
> Also in connection with Saint Martin is the 'Martinigansl' = St Martin's goose: many people eat goose on this day. And there are other traditions attached to St Martin in some regions, it is a very popular saint here in Austria, especially in the east where there are many vineyards.


 
Grüss Got, Sokol,

After reading Moura's entry, I was ready to comment, but then, next page, I saw yours. Surprise after surprise! 
In Spain I haven't heard of any association (of ideas) between wine and St. Martin's day. The closest thing, is a local beer brand in Galicia, named after the saint: Cerveza "San Martín".

There is (rather, was) a tradition here to call the stations of the year by the name of the most meaningful saint celebrated during them, and there are more than four stations at that, on a year.
Once this said, "Por San Juan" designates the warmest part of the summer; "Por San Miguel" or "El San Miguel", applies to the short spell of good weather quite common in our hemisphere by the end of September (In northern US they use to call that "the Indian Summer"), but is also generally applied to the Autumn.
And "Por San Martín" or "El San Martín", we usually enjoy another, shorter, spell of good weather -colder too-, at the begining of November. In northern Spain this is so short, that it seldom lasts until St. Martin's day. At the end of this period, winter is fully on charge, and in many places the chores related to agriculture are left to rest until the end of January.
 So, What better than start celebrating and tasting the new wine?:

Poor pigs! They have being happily growing and swelling through the spring and summer times, and suddenly the man realizes: I've forgotten to prepare the ham, and the sausages that will feed us until the snow is over! And he starts doing what it's needed. Then, his neighbour wakes up at the pitiful cries of the first sacrifice. The pitiful noise grows in the neighbourhood... And, in about one week, there are no pigs left on the whole land, region, country.

In some areas we have new wine to taste on those days. In some others we have only the old one -better, if well kept-.

So, you can figure out by yourselves what is St. Martin's day associated with, in Roman-Catholic Spain.


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## javargasdom

alexacohen said:


> Oops, I forgot the Galician San Martiño. I don't remember now if it is a big D-Day with lots of celebrations, but I know it is the day when the pigs are killed.
> That means celebration at home, once the pig is killed, cut and salted and stored away in big pantries.
> 
> (Possibly that is the reason I forgot all about it)


 
Quite sure, Alexa. You're excused for your omission. I had that in mind while writing my previous entry (so long, that you had the time to get in before I finished it).

Shalom!


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## Outsider

In Portugal, I don't recall any pig slaughtering on St. Martin's day. That's more a Christmas tradition, from what I remember.


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## moura

sokol said:


> I hope you aren't too disappointed that St Martin's day isn't exclusively Portuguese but also something special in Austria.


 

On, no, not at all dear Soko! That was not my idea when I quoted S. Martin and I do enjoy when I discover that other people/nations have common or similar traditons, costums or, in this case, Saints. 

And there are certainly much more of this showing how our antecessors travelled so much before jet planes


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## ampurdan

Chaska Ñawi said:


> San Juan probably gained ground in the first place (as in many other cultures) because of its proximity to the existing ceremonies surrounding the solstice.


 
That's also true for Catalonia, Valencia and the Balearic Islands. We still celebrate "la revetlla de Sant Joan", on Saint John's Eve, with big bonfires and fireworks, like I guess people did here before they became officially Christians, and many people go out until very late at night and there are open-air dances ("verbenas") in every village. It's the beginning of summer after all.

I wonder what St John would think about all that. I've read that, being a very important figure in the Gospel, the Church decided to celebrate him on this day, to Christianize the "pagan" feast, like they did with Christmas. Wise move: if you can't beat'em...


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## alexacohen

javargasdom said:


> Quite sure, Alexa. You're excused for your omission. I had that in mind while writing my previous entry (so long, that you had the time to get in before I finished it).
> 
> Shalom!



Long but very interesting. 

I am beginning to think Galicia celebrates more saints' days than any other country. You will remember the date better than I do, but the Virgin del Carmen is the patron saint of either the Galician sailors or the coastal Galician towns. 

To celebrate her day the fishing boats are decked with flowers and the image of the Virgin (or the images of several virgins, one per village) is placed on the most beautiful boat and taken for a trip to the sea, with the rest of the flower-decked boats following suit.

Shalom to you, too.


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## javargasdom

alexacohen said:


> Long but very interesting.
> 
> I am beginning to think Galicia celebrates more saints' days than any other country. You will remember the date better than I do, but the Virgin del Carmen is the patron saint of either the Galician sailors or the coastal Galician towns.
> 
> To celebrate her day the fishing boats are decked with flowers and the image of the Virgin (or the images of several virgins, one per village) is placed on the most beautiful boat and taken for a trip to the sea, with the rest of the flower-decked boats following suit.
> 
> Shalom to you, too.


 
You may well be right on your first guess; Galicia's coastal lands, are densely populated and people are spread out on small parrishes -every one around a church dedicated to one Saint or one version of Our Lady-;
They could have the record of Patron Saints per province.

The festivity you refer to, Our Lady of the Carmen, who has been adopted as the patron saint of the sailors, sea-fishermen, and both the commercial and the armed Spanish Navies, is celebrated every 16th of July, in a very similar way in all sea village and city ports. And on the main ports, you can wake up in the morning to the twenty one cannon shots, saluting Our Lady as the super-admiral of the Navy. 
You may gess also why Carmen is one of the most common names among our women, toghether with Pilar.


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## Miguel Antonio

alexacohen said:


> Santiago de Compostela has two: Saint James and Our _-or should I say their?-_ Lady of the Ascensión (I have no idea how to translate it).
> 
> Madrid has the Virgin of the Almudena (that's funny because Almudena is actually Arabic: _al-mudayna, _the citadel).


Saint James is the patron saint for all of Spain, for centuries, every single parish had to pay the chapter at Santiago Cathedral a tithe called _voto de Santiago_. There is also the expression _Santiago y cierra España_, whose ultimate meaning escapes me now. The other patron saint for the whole country is Our Lady of _el Pilar_ (literally "the pillar"), who according to tradition/legend appeared to Saint James on top of a Roman pillar when he was preaching at Zaragoza.

_Almudena_ if I am not mistaken is from the Arabic al-medina, a city, not citadel (al-kasbah), but my knowledge of the language is very limited anyway.



javargasdom said:


> In Spain I haven't heard of any association (of ideas) between wine and St. Martin's day. The closest thing, is a local beer brand in Galicia, named after the saint: Cerveza "San Martín".


Ai, meu fillo, abre ben as orellas dunha vez!!!!
_Polo san Martiño, proba o teu viño _(by st Martin's time, you may taste your wine)_
Polo san Martiño, zapa o teu viño_ (By St Martin's time, put a stopper on your wine) By November 11th, the year's vintage has been collected and  the process of fermentation is finished, so it is time to taste the wine and put the stopper (_zapa_) on the barrel.
_En san Martiño, pan e viño, despois, fame e frío _(on Martinmas, bread and wine, after that, cold and hunger). On November 11th, harvests have (had?) been collected, and there was food and wine aplenty, that was also the date when lords and monasteries collected the rent for the year, so after that date which marks the beginning of wintertime, prospects were bleak.
_A todo porquiño lle chega o seu san Martiño _(every pig will meet its Martinmas). This has developed into an idiom to describe the ultimate end for wrongdoers ("swine") who shall have to face justice sooner or later.


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## cherine

Nun-Translator said:


> Every country has a patron saint.





Miguelillo 87 said:


> Every country????? Even those which are not or weren't catholics? As Iran, Irak, China?????????


Yes. Every country where there are Christians, there is/are patron saint(s). 
Egypt has its own Orthodox church (the Coptic Orthodox church), different from the Greek and the Russian Orthodox church. I don't know much about the details of the differences, they're mainly -if not only-about the nature of Jesus.

To my knowledge, Egypt's patron saint is the apostle St. Mark the evangelist, who introduced Christianity to Egypt.

The Virgin Mary is also celebrated in Egypt (of course).

P.S. This list is supposed to group the patrons of all countries.



Miguel Antonio said:


> _Almudena_ if I am not mistaken is from the Arabic al-medina, a city, not citadel (al-kasbah), but my knowledge of the language is very limited anyway.


Correct. I don't think the word mudayna exists, but medina (actually it's m*a*dina) is the word for "city".


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## Sepia

Nun-Translator said:


> One more little comment. The whole thing of patron saints and saints' days is religious. Every country has a patron saint. In countries with wholly secular governments, there can still be patrons; it's just that their days are not secular or civic holidays.


 
I don't know if you are right at all, basically, but if you were this could only be true for states that have existed long enough for having gotten a saint appointed by some religious body that had the power to influence the government. Or else it would not be "national" would it? And since Germany (Fed. Rep. of ...) has not existed very long in its present form, it would not comply with these criteria. 

I am not saying that those feudal states that emerged to become part of the present Germany do not have various saints, but I never checked up on that. But that still does not make any of their saints "national."


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## javargasdom

Miguel Antonio said:


> Ai, meu fillo, abre ben as orellas dunha vez!!!!
> _Polo san Martiño, proba o teu viño _(by st Martin's time, you may taste your wine)
> _Polo san Martiño, zapa o teu viño_ (By St Martin's time, put a stopper on your wine) By November 11th, the year's vintage has been collected and the process of fermentation is finished, so it is time to taste the wine and put the stopper (_zapa_) on the barrel.
> _En san Martiño, pan e viño, despois, fame e frío _(on Martinmas, bread and wine, after that, cold and hunger). On November 11th, harvests have (had?) been collected, and there was food and wine aplenty, that was also the date when lords and monasteries collected the rent for the year, so after that date which marks the beginning of wintertime, prospects were bleak.
> _A todo porquiño lle chega o seu san Martiño _(every pig will meet its Martinmas). This has developed into an idiom to describe the ultimate end for wrongdoers ("swine") who shall have to face justice sooner or later.


 
Graciñas, Miguel Antonio. Tomo buena nota.
Despite my already long contact with Galicia, this might be the first time
I read or heard your saying, associating wine and St. Martin's day; it is nobody's fault, but old, good and bald occassion's. 
I can't believe my ears have been closed for so long! (_miñas orellas, eu sempre procuro leválas abertas). _I hope it was due to lack of exposure to your wine culture -meaning cultivation, not the other kind-. 
I promise to pay more visits to the _"furanchos"_ (Non-galicians, don't try to find that word on any dictionary) this year, as they have been my closest contact with galician wine producers so far. . (Just to learn a few more songs and practise those I've learnt in previous years).

In modern spanish, _vino and San Martín, _do not rhyme; a pity, as the percentage of our villages with no wineyards must be less than 1 (Needless to say, my family comes from that part).
Come to that, in Catalonia they will have one similar saying: _Sant Martí _and_ ví... _I'll start a quest for it right away.

An ignorant in many languages and matters, I take good note and usually remember everything...What was I saying?. Ah, yes. Take good care!

As promised: some fro Catalonia. Wine related:

“El dia de Sant Martí, l’últim que arriba paga el ví” . Olot, Girona. On St. Martin's day, the last to arrrive (to work), pays the wine.
"Per Sant Martí, mata el porc i ençata el ví". _Vox populi. _Same as Miguel Antonio's from Galicia.

And now some non-alcoholic ones:
 
"Per Sant Martí cauen les pinyes del pí": ... fall the kernel from the pine.
"De Tots Sants a Sant Martí, sembra si vols collir". From All Saints (November first) to St. Martin's (Nov 11th) sow if you want to reap.
"L'olivera plantada per Sant Martí, es la que fa l'oli més fi". The olive tree planted around St. Martin's day, produces the finest oil.
"L'estiuet de Sant Martí, els aucellets fa venir". The little summer of St. Martin, makes the little birds come.


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## javargasdom

cherine said:


> Correct. I don't think the word mudayna exists, but medina (actually it's m*a*dina) is the word for "city".


 
Cherine,

The tradition about Our Lady of the Almudena, is that she was found hidden among the bricks of the walls fortifying Magerit (the origins of what is now Madrid). And her shrine and modern church were built over part of that, partially existing today, wall.

Does this connect with al-mudena or a word close to that? Or could it have been derived from some dialect spoken among the different arab nations contributing to the construction of Al-Andalus.

Because we have many cities and villages whose names contain the root
"madin". Many are called "Medina-something" or "Medina de something"; even there is one called Almadén, what is closer to al-madina. So, "al-mudena", with the spanish "u", similar to the english "oo", I reckon, could have a different root.


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## No_C_Nada

cuchuflete said:


> From the point of view of the national government, the U.S. has no saint. The Constitution specifically forbids the government from doing anything to impede religion, and in the same sentence says that it may do nothing to establish a state religion.
> 
> From the viewpoint of any of the thousands of religions in the country, there may be one or more beatified persons associated with the nation, but popular culture has not broadly accepted any such association.
> 
> In short, we have no national saints.


 
_Ntra. Señora de Guadalupe - Patrona de las Américas._




rocamadour said:


> Hi!
> In Italy every region, every town and almost every single village has its own patron saint.
> As a country, we have two : san Francesco d'Assisi and santa Caterina da Siena.
> Here an interesting wiki page: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lista_di_santi_patroni_cattolici_%28nazioni%29 (only catholic saints).
> Ciao!


 

_San Francisco, California was named after St. Francis of Assisi. You can probably correctly guess who the patron saint for that city is._



danielfranco said:


> I guess Mexicans go for the whole she-bang: no saints for us, thank you very much, we've got a Virgin,


 
_¿Oh?_

_I thought you had St. Juan Diego._

_Also;_

_St. José María Robles Hurtado. _
_http://www.oremosjuntos.com/SantoralLatino/JoseMariaRoblesHurtado.html_

_San Cristóbal Magallanes Jara _
_http://www.oremosjuntos.com/SantoralLatino/SanCristobalMagallanesJara.html_

_San José María de Yermo y Parres_
_http://www.mercaba.org/SANTORAL/Vida/09/09-20_S_JoseMaria_de_Yermo_Parres.htm_

_Santa María de Jesús Sacramentado Venegas Torres_
http://www.oremosjuntos.com/SantoralLatino/SantaMariaJesusSacramentadoVenegasTorre.html


_and 23 others._


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## Miguelillo 87

No_C_Nada said:


> _¿Oh?_
> 
> _I thought you had St. Juan Diego._
> 
> 
> _and 23 others._


 
Of course we got'em and as I wrote before, some other are more devoted to San Judas, San Antonio etc, but in general you can be devoed to a special saint, but almos all Mexicans (catholics one) are Gudalupanos!!! 

San Juan Diego is still in his procces to be a saint, right??? 

Anyway I think we can have 100 hundreds saints, but  The Virgin of Guadalupe is like the most important (after Jesus and God) for everybody here.


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## No_C_Nada

_*Was* in the process to be canonized a saint. He had already become a saint during his lifetime._



> *SAN JUAN DIEGO Cuauhtlatoatzin (1474-1548) *
> *VIDENTE DE LA VIRGEN DE GUADALUPE*
> *Fiesta: 9 de diciembre*
> *Canonizado el 31 de Julio del 2002 por S.S. Juan Pablo II, durante su 5ta visita a México.*​


_And from my experience, patron saints are not exclusive to a particular country or region. Perhaps they are exclusive when they are not worldwide known. For instance, St. Martin de Porres, was not well known outside of Perú; once he was canonized, in 1963, the whole world knew about him. I guess it caused quite a stir since he was the first canonized saint from Black heritage. Same thing with canonized saints from China. By the way, China does not have a patron saint._​


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## pickypuck

No_C_Nada said:


> _Ntra. Señora de Guadalupe - Patrona de las Américas._


 
Y también de Extremadura.

Cheers.


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## javargasdom

pickypuck said:


> Y también de Extremadura.
> 
> Cheers.


 
I was missing some news from Extremadura, Spain, about Our Lady of Guadalupe.
This case may be unique, as Our Lady was venerated in the Monastry of Guadalupe (Cáceres, Spain) since the XIII century, before her manifestation to St. Juan Diego in México in 1531.
Different countries, different celebration days:
In Spain, September the 8th is the day of Our Lady of Guadalupe.

May be you want to give us some more information on this.

Thanks.


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## Miguelillo 87

pickypuck said:


> Y también de Extremadura.
> 
> Cheers.


 
Pickupuck as javargasdom said, Is it the same lady????

I mean why did Spain have a Vírgen Morena???? 

It's supposed the Lady of Gudalupe is Morena, because she represents all the meztisos and indígenas of Mexico and America.

For me it's really weird and I've never listened about her.

More information please!!!


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## javargasdom

Miguelillo 87 said:


> Pickupuck as javargasdom said, Is it the same lady????
> 
> I mean why did Spain have a Vírgen Morena????
> 
> It's supposed the Lady of Gudalupe is Morena, because she represents all the meztisos and indígenas of Mexico and America.
> 
> For me it's really weird and I've never listened about her.
> 
> More information please!!!


 
Meanwhile, you may want to try Google: "Virgenes Morenas". 
There are quite a few in Spain. But also in France and Italy.
Then you may want to try -also Google- Vigen Morena and look for an entry where the egiptian godess Isis is mentioned; it's not a religious, but a modern literary myth (The Temple, Maria Magdalena, the Catars, the Franc Masons etc...)


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## Miguelillo 87

javargasdom said:


> Then you may want to try -also Google- Vigen Morena and look for an entry where the egiptian godess Isis is mentioned; it's not a religious, but a modern literary myth (The Temple, Maria Magdalena, the Catars, the Franc Masons etc...)


 

I'll google .. but abour Isis mith, recently it was an exposition in the National Museum of Antropology here in Mexico city of Isis and there it was a plenty explanation of the similarity between Isis and Maria.

Anyway I don't think the church support this idea. 

I'll check the Extremadura's virgen María.

Thanks

Acabo de revisar en google y efectivamente no son las mismas, aunque comparten el mismo nombre cada una partenece a su cada cuál. 

Simplemente hay que ver las imágenes. 

Vírgen española Vírgen Mexicana 

Además según el relato donde se encuentra la vírgen mexicana fue ella misma quien lo hizo, es una aparición milagrosa, y como esta shay varias diferencias. 

Definitivamente no es la "misma" vírgen.

P.D Pusé las "" puesto que sabemos que sólo hay una vírgen, pero con diferentes apariciones pero bueno sabemso que cada aparición tuvo su función


English.

I've just googled Vírgen de Guadalupe and as I thought they aren't the same, eventhought they have the same name, Every it's so different from the other. 

As you can see in the images. (they are in blue in my spanish versión) 

Besides The image where she is, it was "made" by her, It is considered as a miracle, and as this, they have a lot of differences. 

Definitely thar are not the "same" Lady.

P.S. I wrote """ between same, bacause all of us knows there is only one Virgen, but we also know aver aparición has its own fonction


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## javargasdom

Miguelillo 87 said:


> I'll google .. but abour Isis mith, recently it was an exposition in the National Museum of Antropology here in Mexico city of Isis and there it was a plenty explanation of the similarity between Isis and Maria.
> 
> Anyway I don't think the church support this idea.
> 
> I'll check the Extremadura's virgen María.
> 
> Thanks


Sure, the church doesn't support that. It is one of the ingredients of all the literature I was referring to.


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## ronanpoirier

In Brazil, it is Our Lady of Aparecida. 

In my state (Rio Grande do Sul), I believe it is Saint Peter, because the former name of the province (when Brazil was an Empire there were provinces, when it became a Republic they became states) was Província de São Pedro do Rio Grande do Sul.

In my city (Porto Alegre), we celebrate the day of Our Lady of Navegantes (not sure if it's called "Navegantes" in English) in February 2nd and it's the city holiday (the city's birthday is not a holiday here  ).


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## Porteño

katie_here said:


> In another thread, I saw mention of Saints not being specific to a country, but to a religion.
> 
> The patron saint of England is St. George, and so there will be places and streets named after him. There are other patron saints of other countries, for example, Ireland has St. Patrick, Scotland has St. Andrew and Wales has St. David.
> 
> Do other countries have patron saints and are these saints revered all over the world, or are they specific to each country?


 
St. George is also the patron saint of Brazil.


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## katie_here

Porteño said:


> St. George is also the patron saint of Brazil.


 
The brave dragon slayer looking after us both !!!


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## Porteño

katie_here said:


> The brave dragon slayer looking after us both !!!


 
Oops! Sorry, I made a mistake. ronanpoirier pointed out that Our Lady of Aparecida is the patron saint of Brazil. Apparently my confusion arose from the following:
 In the religious traditions of the Afro-Brazilian Candomblé and Umbanda, Ogum (as this Yoruba divinity is known in the Portuguese language) is often identified with Saint George in many regions of the country, being widely celebrated by both religions' followers. Popular devotion to Saint George is very strong in Rio de Janeiro, where the saint vies in popularity with the city's official patron Saint Sebastian, both saints' feast days being local holidays.
Saint George is also the patron saint of the São Paulo club Corinthians, the stadium of the club is also known as Parque São Jorge (Saint George's Park, in portuguese).

When I lived there, mainly in São Paulo, I was sure St. George was the patron saint.


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## Wynn Mathieson

Sepia said:


> I don't know if you are right at all, basically, but if you were this could only be true for states that have existed long enough for having gotten a saint appointed by some religious body that had the power to influence the government. Or else it would not be "national" would it? And since Germany (Fed. Rep. of ...) has not existed very long in its present form, it would not comply with these criteria.



Sepia, I think you are confusing "national" with "state". A country, a nation, may have many customs, practices, traditions which have nothing at all to do with the government or the state. Among these may be included veneration for a particular saint.

No government ever "appointed" Saint Patrick, Saint David, Saint George, or any of the rest: these were just saints, whether connected with the history of the country (Ireland) or not (St George), who came to be particularly revered by Christians in that country, and that particular devotion came _later_ to be recognized by (not mandated by) the Church.

If we say that bringing a Christmas tree into the house is a national custom in Germany, that doesn't mean to say that any government, state, law or régime ever approved or decreed the usage! But it's one practiced by the German people, i.e. the German nation: that is what makes it national; neither government nor state come into the question.

Wynn


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## Miguelillo 87

Wynn Mathieson said:


> . the German nation: that is what makes it national; neither government nor state come into the question.
> 
> Wynn


 

I really agree with you in this point, as in Mexico we said; La costumbre se hace ley, "the costum turns into a law" althougt the state is separted from the catholic church or any religion; a lot of companies (as mine) gives the December 12th as a holiday, even in some public organisations. That shows the importance that our lady of Guadalupe has in our lives. No saint has this attribution except for the birth od Jesus 'cause in  Christmas (25 December) this day it's offciel and we don't go to work. (tha law said it)


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## pickypuck

St. George is also the patron saint of Cáceres (in Extremadura, of course )

About Our Lady of Guadalupe, a.k.a., la Morenita, you have commented practically everything. Its day is celebrated on September 8th, which is also the Day of Extremadura.

I pass you the link of the Royal Monestry of Santa María de Guadalupe, if you are interested in the history.

And about the black virgins, in Spain there is also another one, Our Lady of Montserrat, a.k.a. la Moreneta, among others. There is information about black madonnas here

Greetings.


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## Martina.M

Hi Sepia,

The patron saint of Germany is Saint Boniface (check it here). It is not national as a State saint, it means that Catholics in your country entrust themselves in a particular way to Saint Boniface's prayers. 

Please correct me if I'm wrong, Nun-Translator, you are an expert!

Ciao!


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## Martina.M

pickypuck said:


> St. George is also the patron saint of Cáceres (in Extremadura, of course )
> 
> About Our Lady of Guadalupe, a.k.a., la Morenita, you have commented practically everything. Its day is celebrated on September 8th, which is also the Day of Extremadura.
> 
> I pass you the link of the Royal Monestry of Santa María de Guadalupe, if you are interested in the history.
> 
> And about the black virgins, in Spain there is also another one, Our Lady of Montserrat, a.k.a. la Moreneta, among others. There is information about black madonnas here
> 
> Greetings.



My family is from Zafra, and half the women in the family are called Guadalupe!

Do you know it is a different "Virgin"? of course it is the same, but with a different "advocación" (can't find the translation, sorry).

I have never known the official story about why the Mexican one is called Guadalupe too - because it was not an "exported" veneration, there was a different aparition.


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## Ynez

Now we only know some Saint days, but in the past people knew lots of them, as all holidays were around those Saints. Probably many people don't even know the Patron Saint of Spain is Santiago (it seems he is St. James in English) because it is no more a holiday.

Another general curiosity about saints is that there are many with the same name: lots of San Francisco, San Juan, and other common names.

Another tradition, nearly lost now, was to celebrate your saint day. So if your name is Santiago, your saint day is July 25th. We all have a saint, so you may try and find yours 

Miguelillo, an entertaining page with our Guadalupe, in case you are interested:

http://www.diomedes.com/guadalupe-p.htm


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## Martina.M

Martina.M said:


> Do you know it is a different "Virgin"? of course it is the same, but with a different "advocación" (can't find the translation, sorry).



ops. Miguelillo, I had not read your post!


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