# petits nègres



## petite_traductrice

Hello,

I am looking for a possible translation of the term "petit nègre" as used in a contemporary Haitian novel to describe black Haitians. The context is a prostitute discussing the rescue process after the earthquake:

"Savait-elle qu’elle allait mourir ? Lavait-elle déjà vu en rêve, qu’elle devait finir comme ça, dans un coin sous les décombres d’où personne ne pouvait la tirer. Même les secouristes blancs. Même leurs chiens dressés, plus instruits, plus intelligents, plus entretenus que les petits nègres d’ici."

I know that a contrast is being made between the white rescuers as "white saviors" and the Haitians, but I'm not sure whether "petits nègres" is pejorative here or simply a term for "natives" or "common people." Google isn't helping much - I'm hoping someone from Haiti can give me a definitive response 

Merci!


----------



## Ellea1

This term is pejorative in Haiti like anywhere else. And I'm pretty sure the black people were brought from Africa to be white people's slaves like in most parts of the Caribbean unless the story occurs before this era


----------



## petite_traductrice

No, it happens in the present day, right after the 2010 earthquake. Can anyone else confirm the pejorative meaning?


----------



## CarlosRapido

Et l'expression 'parler petit nègre' c'est péjoratif aussi?  Désolé, mais j'y crois pas moi à la péjoration des mots; les mots peuvent servir de véhicule à des propos haineux mais, dans un contexte neutre, le mot lui même ne saurait être péjoratif.   à chaque règle son exception, certains rares mots n'ayant été inventés que pour blesser ou abaisser...

Ceci-dit, et compte tenu du mouvement '_politically-correct_' qui sévit actuellement dans le monde anglophone, je ne saurais suggérer une traduction qui n’incommodera personne. 
Même une traduction directe - _little negros_ - sera perçue comme péjorative par les gens qui ont demandé la démission d'un politicien américain qui avait utilisé '_niggardly_' en public (David Howard, D.C. mayoral office)


----------



## Ellea1

I agree it's not pejorative but offensive as in this context the "petits nègres" are even compared to dogs which are described to be more intelligent.


----------



## CarlosRapido

C'est une prostituée noire qui dit cette phrase, ce n'est dont pas dit pour blesser qui que ce soit, ce que la péjoration implique.  Ça témoigne probablement d'un bas niveau d'estime de soi causé par la longue domination (et, faut le dire, l'abus) des blancs en Haïti.  Je le vois plus comme une description d'un état de chose désolant que comme une péjoration.


----------



## Ellea1

Oh well I agree witb you in this case.  But I disagree witb a tbe use of this term to describe the natives from Haiti or to talk about them as common people.


----------



## CarlosRapido

Ellea1 said:


> Oh well I agree witb you in this case.  But I disagree witb a tbe use of this term to describe the natives from Haiti or to talk about them as common people.



Agreed; but that would also be true of the word '_afro-haitian_' if it was used in a condescending or hurtful way.


----------



## DrD

Hi all,

I don't think that 'petits nègres' is meant to be particularly pejorative, but I do think there is a slightly ironical suggestion of both white and black (the prostitute's own) views on the automatic superiority of the white rescuers and even of their dogs. I confess that I can't really think of a good translation - maybe something like 'lowly blacks'? I don't know if you could use 'negroes' in the US? (It's a word that would definitely be considered pejorative in the UK, but I'm not sure if it is quite so taboo on the other side of the Atlantic).


----------



## CarlosRapido

Let me assure you that 'negro' is seen as pejorative in the States also, probably more so than in the UK, as their history with slavery is more recent and racism still rampant in many parts.  But, what I am saying is, attacking the words won't do much good if you don't address the social conditions that allow for the abuse;  it's the same as blaming the knife in a murder case.

Would 'blackie' work, or is that still too pejorative and too 'Aussie'?


----------



## DrD

Hi Carlos,

Definitely too pejorative in British English! I agree, of course, that words are not, in and of themselves, pejorative, but certain words are seen as being so, because of their historical connotations. Certainly, in British English pretty much anything other than 'black' is considered unacceptable. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that we can undo all the unpleasant connotations attached to these words in this forum... Even 'blacks' on its own is a little problematic. A black man/woman is fine, but just 'blacks' or 'a black' carries a kind of condescending tone - it's difficult to explain. Anyway, although 'lowly blacks' is a little less than entirely politically correct, that perhaps fits with the tone of the original - I think it might work. Otherwise 'lowly black men and women', 'lowly natives' (although, again, 'native' in this context has unpleasant connotations, although that might be more particular to British English and our colonial history).


----------



## CarlosRapido

Thanks DrD, but we have to find a wording that the narrator, probably underprivileged and uneducated, would be likely to use in this context. 'Lowly blacks' might work if we can't find better, but I suggest looking for a more 'slangish' term, one that wouldn't cause Aunt Mildred to choke on her tea and crumpets.

The Urban Dictionary suggests 





> hoogly ; black person without any negative or positive connotation


 but without indicating frequency or geographic area of usage.


----------



## petite_traductrice

Thank you everyone for your suggestions. I still don't have a solution, but you've given me more to think about. One thing that comes to mind is actually the usage of THE 'n word' which is used within the black community and could possibly have an ironic sense in the context of this novel... though I'm very hesitant to translate it that way for obvious reasons. I might actually keep it in French and use italics to avoid the translation issue.


----------



## petite_traductrice

I've never heard of the word 'hoogly' - and I'm usually quite reluctant about anything suggested by the Urban Dictionary.


----------



## DrD

I've never heard 'hoogly' either. As for Aunt Mildred choking on her tea and crumpets, she probably wouldn't! Older people are often completely oblivious to the fact that certain words they used in their youth are no longer considered to be OK (my mother-in-law once, quite casually, threw the word 'darkies' into a lunch time conversation - I was the one choking on my tea and crumpets!). I think you are right petite_traductrice to be wary of the 'n' word. I agree that it might work and it might be the word the prostitute herself would use, but it's a hard call to make as a translator. Personally I would go for something safer, or, as you suggest, keep it in French if you think you can.


----------



## Nicomon

Ellea1 said:


> I agree it's not pejorative but offensive as in this context the "petits nègres" are even compared to dogs which are described to be more intelligent.


 Et à ton avis, ç'aurait été moins offensif si elle avait dit : _Même leurs chiens dressés, plus instruits, plus intelligents, plus entretenus que les *noirs* d’ici.

_La comparaison serait la même, non? Je pense comme Carlos (post #6). 

Et dans le contexte - *comme c'est une noire qui l'a dit *- je n'hésiterais pas à traduire par *little niggers *ou *poor (little) niggers *(alors que dans la bouche d'un blanc, _niggers _serait sans doute perçu comme encore plus péjoratif que _negroes). _

Pour info seulement : 





> *And Then There Were None* is a detective fiction novel by Agatha Christie, first published in the United Kingdom by the Collins Crime Club on 6 November 1939 as _*Ten Little Niggers*_. The title, which referred to a British nursery rhyme was changed to _And Then There Were None_ for the first United States edition, and the name of the nursery rhyme was changed in the text to _Ten Little Indians. _*Source*


 À ce jour, le titre de l'édition française _Dix Petits Nègres_ n'a pas été modifié. 

Maintenant (si la personne qui le dit est noire elle même) comparons :

*- Lowly blacks
- Poor (little) niggers

*Lequel est le plus péjoratif selon vous? À mon avis - mais personne n'est obligé de le partager - _lowly _est encore plus dénigrant.


----------



## DrD

Hi Nicomon,

I take your point. However, I think it is worth considering very carefully the fact that the title of that Agatha Christie novel has been changed in English, but not in French. I think that speaks volumes about the relative offensiveness of the words. When Christie wrote that book, it was perfectly acceptable (to white people) to refer to black people as niggers. It is absolutely not acceptable today - the word itself is considered deeply offensive. I agree that the sentiment expressed (that the dogs are more intelligent than the locals) is offensive however you put it, but it actually does become considerably more offensive in English if you say 'nigger' rather than black. Although black people do use the word nigger themselves, I personally would not feel confident about using that word here. But of course, that is petite_traductrice's choice.

As for lowly, my suggestion was based on the fact that I think this is what the French conveys. Using the direct translation 'little' in English suggests that you are talking about children and using 'poor' (which I also considered) suggests you are talking about their lack of money. I don't think either of these is what is meant by the French 'petit'.


----------



## Mauricet

Si la personne qui parle est une prostituée noire, et puisque les Noirs anglophones utilisent "niggers" pour parler d'eux-mêmes (cet usage leur étant évidemment réservé), je ne vois pas pourquoi ni comment éviter ce mot ici : _lowly niggers_ me paraît s'imposer, même.


----------



## DrD

Perhaps I should be clearer. _Some _black people use the word 'niggers' to refer to themselves. For others, it is still a deeply insulting term. Certainly, this is an area where a great deal of caution needs to be exercised, even if the word is supposed to be coming from a black person. Personally, I would choose to err on the side of caution here and use something less controversial. To me, 'niggers' is a more offensive term, generally speaking, than 'nègres' - of course this is my personal interpretation. I have to say that I'm very glad that I'm not the person having to make the choice!


----------



## Ellea1

OK!  You all have good points.  If the prostitute is also black she might hate herself and despise her own race.  So she might even use the word "nigga"


----------



## ANDSYL

nègre n'est pas péjoratif. C'est tout simplement très politiquement incorrect et pratiquement proscrit du langage. Ici c'est petit qui est péjoratif


----------



## Mauricet

Si 'nigger' n'est pas suffisamment employé par les intéressés anglophones, pour traduire adéquatement 'nègre' employé par une prostituée noire d'Haïti, c'est alors _lowly negroes_ qui s'impose ... Et il ne devrait pas y avoir besoin d'autant épiloguer sur le _politically correct_ pour un simple problème de traduction, à mon avis. Le caractère offensant (ou non) du texte initial doit simplement être transposé au mieux.


----------



## fdb

Mauricet (no 18) has hit the nail on the head.


----------



## Nicomon

Mauricet said:


> [...] Et il ne devrait pas y avoir besoin d'autant épiloguer sur le _politically correct_ pour un simple problème de traduction, à mon avis. Le caractère offensant (ou non) du texte initial doit simplement être transposé au mieux.


 Bien d'accord. 

Je réalise après coup que j'ai mal interprété « _petit_ »  (merci DrD - post 17) et comme fdb, je vote pour ta suggestion de : _lowly niggers. 

_J'avais imaginé la combinaison _poor little niggers _comme un apitoiement sur le sort des moins nantis/moins instruits. 
Dans ces sens de _pauvre_, que l'anglais n'a peut-être pas : 





> Qui inspire la pitié. Un pauvre homme.
> Qui inspire le mépris. Pauvre imbécile!


----------



## DrD

Hi Nicomon,

Yes, 'poor' can have the meaning of someone to be pitied in English (in terms of contempt, I think it's possible, but rare and a little old fashioned) and 'little' can also have a pejorative meaning (for instance in phrases like: only little people pay taxes). It's just that here I don't think it's clear enough. Certainly, if I read 'little' on its own in this context I would assume we were either talking about children or that the people in question were very small. And 'poor' on its own carries a high level of ambiguity, given that these people almost certainly are financially poor. If you use both poor and little as you are doing, it does become clearer and is certainly an option. I think I would still prefer something without any hint of ambiguity myself, although it doesn't necessarily have to be lowly. I also think 'poor little' suggests more pity than contempt and I suspect the 'petits' suggests more contempt than pity...

Mauricet, of course I agree completely with your sentiment that this is a pejorative statement and should be translated as such. My own concern, were I the person translating it, would be to not make it more offensive than it is. It isn't a question of trying to be politically correct. Please believe me, there is nothing politically correct about referring to people as 'lowly blacks' and certainly not in suggesting they are less intelligent than dogs. However, 'niggers' is certainly significantly more offensive in English than 'nègres' is in French. As for negroes, I am hesitant, but I think it is probably more offensive than 'nègres', even if it is less offensive than 'niggers'. Of course, I will not ask you to take my word for it. Andsyl says that 'nègre' is not pejorative. Here are links to the definition of the word in three English language dictionaries. Collins (British English) states that the word is offensive: http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/negro?showCookiePolicy=true, Oxford (British English) says it is _often_ offensive: http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/Negro?q=negro, and Merriam Webster (American English) says it is _sometimes _offensive: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/negro. By way of comparison, CNRTL says: '_Nègre_, employé en parlant des pers. a eu des connotations péj. et, à ce titre, s'est trouvé concurrencé par _noir_ qui est moins marqué (voir Hugo, _loc. cit._). Actuellement _nègre_ semble en voie de perdre ce caractère péj., probablement en raison de la valorisation des cultures du monde noir (v. _négritude_).' My personal feeling is that this is a fine line to tread. If I were doing this translation, I would rather risk making the translation a little less offensive than it is in the original than risk making it more offensive. Of course, petite_traductrice is the person who has to make the choice and as she is (I think) the only native American English speaker on this thread, I think she is the only person who can decide exactly how offensive the words 'nigger' and 'negro' are in her native language and whether she thinks they accurately reflect the original or whether these terms make an already offensive statement considerably more offensive.

As I am not a native speaker of French, it is hard for me to judge how offensive or otherwise the word 'nègre' actually is, but certainly as a native speaker of British English, I would say that both 'negro' and especially 'nigger' are considered to be racist and offensive words. If the word 'nègre' is not considered to be racist and offensive unless it is being used in a particular way, then I don't think these words are necessarily good translations.


----------



## Nicomon

Thanks again, DrD... for the first paragraph of your last post. I now understand perfectly why you chose _lowly_.





> I also think 'poor little' suggests more pity than contempt and I suspect the 'petits' suggests more contempt than pity...


I had analysed it as (self, by comparison?) pity, with a bit of contempt. 

But I stand my point about_ nigger. _If that doesn't work, then I'd go for _blacks_ rather than _negroes. _

I could be wrong, but I don't think black people (who do say _nigger/nigga_) say _negro _among themselves.


----------



## bh7

Well, no, I'd still use "poor local folks" than "poor niggas".


----------



## Ellea1

I'd also use  "poor niggas" in this context and definitely not "negroes".


----------



## DrD

Nicomon, your interpretation of (self) pity with some contempt may well be more accurate than mine. I suppose I would read it more as an echoing of the contempt felt by white people with an element of (self) pity. But your feel for the original text, as a native French speaker, is sure to be better than mine and it may well be that 'poor little' is better than 'lowly'.

I agree with your point - I think 'nigger' has been taken up by some black people in an attempt to reclaim and redefine the word and I'm not sure that the same is true of 'negro'. However, I still think both words are best avoided because they are generally offensive in English, even to many black people when being used by other black people. I assume that's why bh7 also thinks 'local folks' might be a better choice than 'niggas'. Ultimately, anyone who is looking for a translation of 'nègre' will have to make their own choice, but I really feel that it is important to stress, for the benefit of non-native speakers of English, just how offensive these words are to many native speakers. If the word 'nègre' is being used in a particularly pejorative way, these words could be a good choice. However, as ANDSYL has pointed out (post 21) really it is 'petit' rather than 'nègre' that carries the negative connotations here and so I think a translation should keep the idea that these people are being described as somehow 'lesser beings', but without using outright offensive racist terms, because I'm not convinced that the original French carries that level of offensiveness.

Of course, this is my opinion and others are free to differ. I just think it's important to say it, as non-native speakers of English sometimes don't realise just how offensive certain terms are.


----------



## CarlosRapido

The words _nègre_ and *negro* are both derived from the Spanish_ el negro_ (the dark ones) and began life as a matter-of-fact reference to ethnicity and skin colour. The English word was later deformed into *nigger* and *nigga* by the less educated among us.  

The hate mongers in our midst have come to use these words as weapons to hurt or further enslave and diminish the African natives. They have picked up some heavy extra baggage over the years because of this and have become taboo in the current 'politically correct' climate we live under.  I can't speak for European French, but Canadians having had much less of a history of slavery, have generally kept to the original innocuous meaning of the words _nègre and négritude_.  

I am not saying that the word cannot and never has been used to hurt ethnic blacks; what I am saying is that the words are not at fault - it is misguided people using words in a hurtful way that cause pejoration; the same could be done using whatever euphemisms referring to 'blacks'.  The only effective means of countering that is to take back the words, using them in their proper sense and often; taking the sting out of them, to use a beekeeping metaphor.

All this to say that I would not hesitate to use *nigger* or *nigga* to translate _petit nègre_ and stay true to the spirit of the original;  learned and intelligent people will understand, others may stand to be educated...

...notwithstanding the fact that if these words are spoken from under a white sheet, they are never good.


----------



## wildan1

The n-word is a stick of dynamite in your hand, no matter who uses it. It packs a punch that _petit nègre_ really doesn't, even if the latter is offensive.

Unless you really master the language, I would avoid it at all costs. Because you hear it used in rap songs is not a confirmation that all black people use this word or are comfortable with it--that is not the case.

Context is everything. And with this term, it includes your using it as the translator!


----------



## Mauricet

Il me semble que la seule question pertinente est : que dirait une prostituée noire anglophone dans un contexte analogue (par exemple à New Orleans après l'ouragan) ? Que ce soit extrêmement offensant est sans importance si c'est ce qu'elle dirait. On parle bien de traduction ?


----------



## aasheq

I have read through this interesting and somewhat disturbing thread. I am a native English speaker and also a queer nigger. These are words that I use to describe myself and that my friends use to describe me. Of course, I would be offended to hear them from a white heterosexual. You are translating a novel by a black Haitian, is that right? The author is telling us what a black prostitute is thinking while buried in the aftermath of an earthquake. If she were speaking English she would in these circumstances call herself a pathetic fucking nigger. That is the way we talk. Why are some people suggesting that this should be censured in the name of “political correctness”?


----------



## Nicomon

Mauricet said:


> Il me semble que la seule question pertinente est : que dirait une prostituée noire anglophone dans un contexte analogue (par exemple à New Orleans après l'ouragan) ? Que ce soit extrêmement offensant est sans importance si c'est ce qu'elle dirait. On parle bien de traduction ?


 Je plussoie!  

And thank you for the confirmation, aasheq.  

Just addiing this about the euphemism "the n-word" as found on this page about Nigger : 





> Comedian Louis CK commented that the euphemism is possibly worse than the word it represents – "The thing that offends me the most is every time that I hear '⁠_the N-word_⁠'. Not '⁠_nigger_⁠', by the way. I mean 'the N-word'. Whenever a white lady on CNN with nice hair says 'the N-word', that’s just white people getting away with saying 'nigger'. It’s bullshit, because when you say 'the N-word', you put the word 'nigger' in the listener's head. That’s what saying a word _is_ – _you_ say 'the N-word' and _I_ go, "Oh, she means 'nigger'!" You're making _me_ say it in my _head_! Why don’t _you_ say it and take responsibility? Don’t hide behind the first letter." _(text slightly edited)_


----------



## wildan1

aasheq said:


> That is the way we talk. Why are some people suggesting that this should be censured in the name of “political correctness”?


You speak from a British insider's perspective, aasheq; my perspective is North American and outsider. They are just different perspectives… which is what this Forum fortunately provides.


----------



## DrD

Hi aasheq,

It's certainly valuable to have the input of a black native English speaker on this and clearly you would be comfortable using the word in this context. In fact, we don't know anything about the author - only that the words are used when describing the death of a black prostitute and are presumed (by the author) to be what she might have thought. Just as a reminder, here is the original sentence: 



> "Savait-elle qu’elle allait mourir ? Lavait-elle déjà vu en rêve,  qu’elle devait finir comme ça, dans un coin sous les décombres d’où  personne ne pouvait la tirer. Même les secouristes blancs. Même leurs  chiens dressés, plus instruits, plus intelligents, plus entretenus que  les petits nègres d’ici."



So, in fact, these are not the words of the prostitute herself, because she's dead. They are the words the author is putting into her mouth. I'd be interested to know whether it would make a difference to you if the author were white?

However, that really isn't the question here. I am not attempting to suggest anything should be censored in the name of political correctness. The word is considered by many people to be offensive and even you say you would be offended to hear the word from a white person, but if it is an accurate translation, then it is the word that should be used. I am quite certain that there are instances where the word 'nègre' should be translated as 'nigger' - I am fairly sure that there are instances of this in the English translations of Fanon's work, for example. My issue here is that I am not convinced that it is the right translation here. All the native French speakers are saying that the word, in the way it is being used here, is fairly neutral. I don't think that you could ever argue that the word 'nigger' is neutral, even if you are comfortable using it yourself, but perhaps you disagree? As a translator, my concern would be that I would be putting a word into the author's mouth that he never actually said. The problem is not that the English word is offensive (you are quite right Mauricet), but that it may well be significantly more offensive than the original text.

If I were translating this text, based on the comments of native French speakers about the connotations of the word 'nègre' in this particular sentence, I would play it safe and use the only word that can be considered neutral in English: 'black'. It's a choice I would make purely on the basis of not being completely confident that 'nigger' would be an accurate translation of the original text, not because I think the word 'nigger' should be avoided in all circumstances. This is, of course, a personal choice and other translators might make a different one.


----------

