# рь - pronunciation



## 涼宮

Happy new year 

Studying how to reproduce seriously the Russian soft sign I got stuck. From ль, ть, зь, вь, дь, сь, нь the only problem I have is with -рь. 

In the following website there is a comparison between the sounds http://listen2russian.com/lesson08/c/index.html, when the girl doesn't pronounce the soft sign the р sounds like the Dutch/German /ʀ/, but when she pronounces it with the soft sign it seems to me that it sounds like /tʲ/ or /dʲ/. So, my question is, does the -рь becomes like a t/d or is it something different? Because it doesn't sound like a palatalized /r/ to me. I only notice a different -рь in the words Январь & словарь from the first 2 she pronounces. I would like some advice 


Thanks in advance!


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## Sobakus

It's a simple palatalised [rʲ], but when palatalised it's less likely to be rolled and so becomes a flap (similar to the Spanish r) rather than trill. That's why it sounds somewhat like [dʲ]. It's only trilled in царь in your link, it depends on the speaker, but an unvoiced rolled palatalised r is quite difficult to utter.


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## morzh

Well, since your native language is Spanish, pronounce the word "*corriendo*". With exeption of "r" not being as strong in Russian as "rr" in Spanish, "r" in front of "i" sounds the same as "-рь" in Russian.


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## inter1908

There's definitely no [ʀ] here. In some words (particulary "двер") I can hear a very hard [r], which you can indeed encounter in some Dutch dialects (Eddy Poelman is a great example of a speaker with such an "r"), I'd say it's a halway through Polish [r] and Dutch [ʀ], the only difference between them is that the tongue is almost in the same position as when pronouncing [r], just a bit more rolled (exactly like [l] vs [ɫ], it's the same kind of difference), and that's what creates that "hard" sound, which can indeed resemble [ʀ] (but is articulated nowhere near the position where [ʀ] is).


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## Outsider

Flap => Spanish _pe*r*o_
Trill => Spanish _pe*rr*o_


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## 涼宮

Sobakus said:


> It's a simple palatalised [rʲ], but when palatalised it's less likely to be rolled and so becomes a flap (similar to the Spanish r) rather than trill. That's why it sounds somewhat like [dʲ]. It's only trilled in царь in your link, it depends on the speaker, but an unvoiced rolled palatalised r is quite difficult to utter.



The рь is really soft, it sounds barely an /ɾ/. But now I managed to get a little better, I'm using the /ɾ/ sound. But the first words she says sound very much like [dʲ]



morzh said:


> Well, since your native language is Spanish, pronounce the word "*corriendo*". With exeption of "r" not being as strong in Russian as "rr" in Spanish, "r" in front of "i" sounds the same as "-рь" in Russian.



I couldn't understand what you said . Do you mean that I should try to say a soft /i/ in front of /r/?



inter1908 said:


> There's definitely no [ʀ] here. In some words (particulary "двер") I can hear a very hard [r], which you can indeed encounter in some Dutch dialects (Eddy Poelman is a great example of a speaker with such an "r"), I'd say it's a halway through Polish [r] and Dutch [ʀ], the only difference between them is that the tongue is almost in the same position as when pronouncing [r], just a bit more rolled (exactly like [l] vs [ɫ], it's the same kind of difference), and that's what creates that "hard" sound, which can indeed resemble [ʀ] (but is articulated nowhere near the position where [ʀ] is).



The 'r' she uses without soft sign is not a Spanish /r/, if it's not actually an /ʀ/ then it's something a little bit different. The /r/ she uses is too strong and doesn't look like it's made in the middle of the mouth as the Spanish /r/ does. Have you ever heard a Russian/German/Dutch person speaking Spanish without losing their accent? The most notable feature that betrays them is the /r/, PeRRRRRO, aRRRRoz, RRRRojo


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## morzh

涼宮 said:


> I couldn't understand what you said . Do you mean that I should try to say a soft /i/ in front of /r/?



No. What I said was that in "corriendo" "r" becomes soft due to "i"  AFTER it (where did I say "in front"?). The single difference is, that the Russian  "r" is not rolled as "rr" sound requires, but is akin to your "r" in  "pero". But this you can work on later - just pronounce "corriendo" and  listen to how "rr" sound softens up (palatalized), and then use that  same technique on your "Russian "r".
I am not sure how I can make it any more clear.


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## 涼宮

Now it's clear! Thank you señor Morzh!


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## morzh

涼宮 said:


> Now it's clear! Thank you señor Morzh!



Señor Morso, entonces


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## inter1908

涼宮 said:


> If it's not actually an /ʀ/ then it's something a little bit different. The /r/ she uses is too strong and doesn't look like it's made in the middle of the mouth as the Spanish /r/ does.



Well I've already wrote what's the difference, in order to produce that sound you need to roll your tongue more. If Spanish [r] is like [l], "harder" [r] is like [ɫ].



涼宮 said:


> Have you ever heard a Russian/German/Dutch person speaking Spanish without losing their accent?



I've heard Dutchmen speaking a lot languages, maybe you were just unlucky that the only ones you've encountered had a Van Gaal-quality accent. Siempre negativa!  But seriously, Dutch people DO care about sounding at least "alright" in the language they're speaking. What rather can't be said about people from my country. But that's offtopic huh?


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## Assiduous student

morzh said:


> Well, since your native language is Spanish, pronounce the word "*corriendo*". With exeption of "r" not being as strong in Russian as "rr" in Spanish, "r" in front of "i" sounds the same as "-рь" in Russian.



The one sound I have trouble with in Russian is the soft R. I can do the hard R. Ручка - no problem. Речка - big problem. Words with both in like рыцарь and прервалось are also problematic.

I find Russian speakers like Morzh, who used to be on this forum, often say "just say an 'i' after it and it'll be fine". This type of advice ignores the fact that learners like me don't know how to say it with an 'i' after it. And this type of advice also suggests (wrongly) that рь is a hard R followed by an i- or y-sound. But theoretically in Russian, the soft consonants themselves are soft - ри is not "hard R+i", so this sort of advice doesn't address the core point. (It's a common misconception among learners, e.g. that нет is nyet, hard N+y, but Russian has soft consonants, which Morzh fails to realise here.) Another problem is that in words like рыцарь there is nothing that follows the soft R.

I think I will have to accept that my soft R is not perfect and live with it.


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## Vronsky

Assiduous student said:


> Another problem is that in words like рыцарь there is nothing that follows the soft R.


But why do think that the 'Р' in 'рыцать' is soft? I think it's a hard Р.


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## Assiduous student

Vronsky said:


> But why do think that the 'Р' in 'рыцать' is soft? I think it's a hard Р.



I don't think рыцать has a soft R. I said that рыцарь (=mediaeval knight) contains both a hard R and a soft R.


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## Vronsky

Assiduous student said:


> I don't think рыцать has a soft R. I said that рыцарь (=mediaeval knight) contains both a hard R and a soft R.


Oh yes, sorry. I didn't notice the second  'Р'


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## lena55313

Russian children often can't pronounce neither p nor pь. I'd advice you to find russian speech therapy video. I saw many videos where the speech therapist showed how the toungue should move during saying the pь sound.


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## Maroseika

Assiduous student said:


> This type of advice ignores the fact that learners like me don't know how to say it with an 'i' after it.


The idea of such kinds of advices is that a learner stops concentrating on what he can't do, and concentrates instead on what he already can do - pronouncing plain "i", which is impossible after a soft consonant, so that the soft "р" is produced "automatically". I don't know whether this really helps in practice, but idea is like that. At least I've once managed to help one learner to pronounce "ы", making him pronounce preceeding consonant as hard as possible.


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## Assiduous student

Well, yes, it probably helps to get the sounds around the soft R right. Ukrainians friends have told me that even so my soft R is not 100%, but рядом, but not perfect by any means.


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