# Hypothetical constructions of Lugdunum from other romance languages



## killerbee256

Hello I've been researching into romance sound change, for exercise I'm trying to create hypothetical constructions what _Lugdunum_ (Lyon) would look like if it followed sound change laws from romance languages other then french. I believe vulgar Latin would have been something like *_Luduno._
Portuguese Luo
Ocitian Lun
Italian Loggino
Castilian Luyuno
Proto-Iberian Luno
I don't fully understand how the vowels should change, so I feel my constructions maybe wrong. In french _Lyon_ it's clear the _y_ and _o_ are from the first two _u_es in L_u_gd_u_num, some times in cases like this one of vowels are dropped but not in this case. I need to do some more reading on that.


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## ahvalj

That's a difficult question. Searching _Falileyev AI · 2007 · Dictionary of continental Celtic place-names_ reveals that this was the single instance of _gd_ attested in the Gaulish onomastics (provided the dictionary is reasonably full). In Latin words, like in Gaulish, _gd_ arose as the result of syncope in cases like _frīgidus>frī̆gdus_ or was found in occasional loanwords like _Magdalēna_, and these two words seem to be the only guides to guess the development of _Lugdūnum_ in Romance, with the reservation that in _frigdus_ this group was posttonic, in _Magdalēne_ it was followed by an unstressed syllable, while in _Lugdūnum_ it preceded the stressed vowel.

With all this in mind, I'd suggest the development _Lugdūnum>**Luddūnum>**Lodduno_ with a geminated _d_ that tended to withstand lenition (cp. _freddo/Maddalena_ in Italian and _froid/Madeleine _in French). Consequently, we'll get (as references — frigidus - Wiktionary and Madeleine (name) - Wikipedia):
Italian: _**Lodduno_
French: _**Loudun_
Spanish: _**Loduno_
Catalan: **_Lodun_
Portuguese: _**Lodum
_
By the way, the real French development to_ Lyon_ seems completely irregular.


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## fdb

ahvalj said:


> By the way, the real French development to_ Lyon_ seems completely irregular.



Presumably by contamination with “lion”. The lion is the symbol of Lyon in the same way that (equally counter-etymologically) the bear is the symbol of Berlin.


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## danielstan

I did some search for 'gd' in Latin inscription and found just 2 worth mentioning:
 Greek ἀμυγδάλη (_amygdálē_) > Late Latin *_amandula  _> English _almond  _( Almond - Wikipedia )
Greek σμάραγδος (smáragdos) >lat. _smaragdus _which evolved in _esmeralda _and similar words: smaragdus - Wiktionary

Not helping _Lugdunum _evolution, I think...


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## ahvalj

fdb said:


> Presumably by contamination with “lion”. The lion is the symbol of Lyon in the same way that (equally counter-etymologically) the bear is the symbol of Berlin.


I've also found _*Sedodūnum _(?) _> Sedūnum > Sion_ (Sion, Switzerland - Wikipedia).

For Catalan, a more reduced variant _**Lodú_ seems also possible: we have _Bisuldūnum>Besalú _(Besalú - Wikipedia).


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## ahvalj

_Ū_ in this root sometimes produces the French _o _in the south, cp. besides _Lyon_ and _Sion:
Caladūnum>Chalon_ (Description des medailles Gauloises, faisant partie des collections de la bibliotheque Royale; accompagnee des notes)
_Eburodūnum>Yverdon_ (Yverdon-les-Bains - Wikipedia)
_Noviodūnum>Nyon_ (Nyon - Wikipedia)

Vs. _u:
Acitodūnum>Ahun_ (Ahun - Wikipedia)
_Augustodūnum>Autun_ (Autun - Wikipedia)
_Castellum-dūnum (!) > Châteaudun_ (France)
_Eb(u)rodūnum>Embrun_ (Embrun, Hautes-Alpes - Wikipedia)
_*Exolidūnum>Issoudun_ (*Exolidunum, Issoudun – Digital Atlas of the Roman Empire)
_Mellodūnum~Meledūnum>Melun _(Melun - Wikipedia)
_Ver(i)odūnum>Verdun_ (Verdun - Wikipedia)

There is even:
_Noviodūnum>Neung_ (Neung-sur-Beuvron - Wikipedia).


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## berndf

ahvalj said:


> _Ū_ in this root sometimes produces the French _o _in the south, cp. besides _Lyon_ and _Sion:
> Caladūnum>Chalon_ (Description des medailles Gauloises, faisant partie des collections de la bibliotheque Royale; accompagnee des notes)
> _Eburodūnum>Yverdon_ (Yverdon-les-Bains - Wikipedia)
> _Noviodūnum>Nyon_ (Nyon - Wikipedia)


A small correction: Non of these are French names (except maybe Chalon; I don't know which Chalon you are referring to), nor is Lyon for that matter. All these places are historically Franco-Provençal speaking. Only the spelling is sometimes adapted to French. The Franco-Provençal spelling of_ Yverdon_ is _Invèrdon_ and of _Lyon _it is _Liyon_.


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## Penyafort

ahvalj said:


> Catalan: **_Lodun_





ahvalj said:


> For Catalan, a more reduced variant _***Lodú*_ seems also possible: we have _Bisuldūnum>Besalú _(Besalú - Wikipedia).



Your second choice is a much safer bet in my view. Not only Catalan drops final n's as a rule, but the existence of Besalú, Verdú and Salardú, point in that direction.

Catalan, though, also palatalizes initial l's. So the most Catalan of all options would probably have been something like *Llodú*. In the case of (semi)cultisms, Lodú/Ludú, Logdú/Lugdú could have been valid variants.

The Catalan name for the city, Lió, is a very old loanword, though, already in use in the 14th century. No confusion with the word for lion, as it is _lleó_.


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## ahvalj

ahvalj said:


> _Ū_ in this root sometimes produces the French _o _in the south, cp. besides _Lyon_ and _Sion:
> Caladūnum>Chalon_ (Description des medailles Gauloises, faisant partie des collections de la bibliotheque Royale; accompagnee des notes)
> _Eburodūnum>Yverdon_ (Yverdon-les-Bains - Wikipedia)
> _Noviodūnum>Nyon_ (Nyon - Wikipedia)
> 
> Vs. _u:
> Acitodūnum>Ahun_ (Ahun - Wikipedia)
> _Augustodūnum>Autun_ (Autun - Wikipedia)
> _Castellum-dūnum (!) > Châteaudun_ (France)
> _Eb(u)rodūnum>Embrun_ (Embrun, Hautes-Alpes - Wikipedia)
> _*Exolidūnum>Issoudun_ (*Exolidunum, Issoudun – Digital Atlas of the Roman Empire)
> _Mellodūnum~Meledūnum>Melun _(Melun - Wikipedia)
> _Ver(i)odūnum>Verdun_ (Verdun - Wikipedia)
> 
> There is even:
> _Noviodūnum>Neung_ (Neung-sur-Beuvron - Wikipedia).


Two more variants of development: _Nouan_ and _Suin_ (Dun (toponyme) — Wikipédia).
_
-On_ turns out to be attested in proper French areas as well:
Don (Nord) — Wikipédia
Meudon — Wikipédia
Champéon — Wikipédia


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## Cossue

My 2 cents:

There is a _Lliberdón_ is Asturias and _Liberodonum_ was the ancient name of what today is Santiago de Compostela, in Galicia, so apparently *_dūnum_ > *_dōno_ in NW Iberia. There was also a oppidum called _Caladunum_ in what is now Northern Portugal, in Roman times, but as long as I know this toponym banished before the Middle Ages.

Now, assuming that _Lugdunum_ actually is an evolved form of _Lugudunum_, then, and from this latter form, in western Iberia we would have something such as _Lugudūnum_ > *_Luudūnum_ > *_Lūdōnu_. Compare Western Hispano-Celtic compound names such as _Caluenus_, _Catuenus_, _Matuenus_, _Meduenus_... where the second element is the lenited result of proto-Celtic *_genos_; also _Lubre_ (several places in Galicia) < _Lubri_ (Latin inscription, ablative) < (?) *_Lugubrixs_ and the aforementioned _Lliberdón_.

*_Lūdōnu_- should have become *_Lluón _in Asturian (-u/o > 0 after n), and something such as *_Luõo_ in 13th century Galician-Portuguese, which should have become *_Luou_, *_Luó_ or _Luón_ in different tastes of Galician and perhaps *_Luão_ in Portuguese.

Actually, there is a place called _Luou_ in Galicia, but it is attested just like this since 1145, when we would expect *Luono or *Luõo, so it is probably unrelated.


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## Sardokan1.0

Making an hypotethical translation of _Lugdunum _in actual Sardinian, it should be _Ludúnu_.

Comparing with the evolution of other names with GD, like _Magdalena _-> Sardinian "_Madaléna_"


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## Cenzontle

If we start with Lugdūnum, with long ū, here is my sequence for Castilian:
[lug'du:num]
[lug'du:nu]
[luɣ'du:nu]
[loɣ'du:no]
[loɣ'duno]
[loɣ'ðuno]
[loj'ðuno]
[luj'ðuno]
[lwi'ðuno], which would be spelled "Luiduno".

If, on the other hand, we start from Wikipedia's "Londinium", the result is "Londeño".


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## MiguelitOOO

Cenzontle said:


> "Luiduno"


The syllable "LUI" is a little hard to pronounce when it's a diphthong. When we say "diLUIdo" we pronounce "di-lu-i-do" (Hiatus). But you were very close.
This was the way it was said by Spaniards when the name Lugdunum existed:


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## ahvalj

ahvalj said:


> By the way, the real French development to_ Lyon_ seems completely irregular.


It seems that there is an answer to this (Histoire de la langue française): the unstressed inlaut vowels in late Gaulish and early Gallo-Romance sometimes disappeared and sometimes persisted, which has created a number of parallel outcomes: _Flāviniācum>Flogny~Flagny~Flavigny, Domitiācum>Donzy~Domecy, Melodūnum>Meudon~Melun_ and likewise _Lyon_ can be explained as a more or less regular outcome not from _Lugdūnum,_ but from the earlier _Lugudūnum_ through _*Luon._


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## bearded

killerbee256 said:


> Italian Loggino


It may be of interest to know that near Varese in Lombardy there is a place called _Leggiuno, a_nd the most probable etymology of this name is Celtic _leze dunum _(at the foot of the hill). Cf. here (no.2: origini del nome) _ Leggiuno.  _Cognate to Lyon?


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## ahvalj

bearded said:


> It may be of interest to know that near Varese in Lombardy there is a place called _Leggiuno, a_nd the most probable etymology of this name is Celtic _leze dunum _(at the foot of the hill). Cf. here (no.2: origini del nome) _ Leggiuno.  _Cognate to Lyon?


Lugus was a deity — Lugus - Wikipedia.

There is no ancient Celtic _lez-_ attested, with either meaning. A river _Ledus_ is now known as Lez (fleuve) — Wikipédia, so perhaps _Lezodunum,_ if it is not a medieval rendition, is a later variant of some _*Lēdodūnom._


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