# income/incoming (used in Italian)



## anglomania1

Hello everyone, 
and happy Easter to you all!
I'm translating a text about the facts and figures of Vinitaly this year. 
The sentence is:
*Income *(e welcome) Asia (title of the paragraph)
Veronafiere anche quest’anno ha investito risorse importanti per l’aumento dell’*incoming *dall’estero, concentrandosi soprattutto sui mercati che considera strategici per l’Italia, come gli Stati Uniti (anche quest’anno la nostra prima piazza) e la Cina, che pur vedendo il Belpaese solo in sesta posizione tra i Paesi esportatori, è considerata proprio per questo interessante per le sue potenzialità di sviluppo. 

What exactly is meant by "income" used in Italian? I mean, in English it means "reddito", though we wouldn't use it as "incoming"!!!
Is it the same here? Incoming di che?????
I will have a go at translating the sentence once I know what it means!!
Thanks for any assistance or comments, 
Anglo


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## Ragio

Ciao a tutti,
in ambito turistico _incoming _è usato per definire le attività ed i servizi che favoriscono l'afflusso di turisti od operatori stranieri.


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## Necsus

Ciao, Anglo.
In italiano _incoming _dovrebbe essere il "flusso dei turisti che arrivano in una nazione || Il complesso di iniziative che favoriscono l'afflusso turistico dall'estero" (Gabrielli).
In tal caso Veronafiere avrebbe investito per aumentare il numero dei visitatori provenienti da fuori Italia. 

Oops... incrocio...
Però, Ragio, visto che viene detto "incoming dall'estero", non penserei ad attività e servizi (se non come iniziative collegate), perché quelle non 'vengono dall'estero'.


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## Ragio

Ciao Necsus,
le attività di incoming potrebbero essere rivolte anche al mercato interno, ad esempio regioni limitrofe, in questo caso si tratta di azioni mirate rivolte a mercati stranieri


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## Necsus

Hmm... secondo la definizione del Gabrielli non sarebbe così: se arrivano 'in una nazione', vuol dire che vengono da fuori, però se tu hai un'esperienza diretta dell'utilizzo del termine mi adeguo. Solo che hai parlato anche tu di "flusso di turisti od operatori _stranieri_". E quello che intendevo io è che sono le persone a venire dall'estero, non le attività e i servizi.


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## Lorena1970

Direi *fatturato.*
Probabilmente hanno sbagliato il termine "incoming" , suppongo io.


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## Necsus

Lorena1970 said:


> Direi *fatturato.*
> Probabilmente hanno sbagliato il termine "incoming" , suppongo io.


Ciao, Lo. 
In quel caso avrebbero scritto "_verso _l'estero", non credi?


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## pebblespebbles

Ciao Anglomania,
Non capisco se il testo usi la parola "incoming" per riferirsi alle persone che arrivano a visitare veronafiere ( non ho idea di come funzioni, se sia una fiera normale o una societa' che organizza anche altri tipi di servizi), oppure ai soldi ricavati dalle vendite sul mercato estero poiche' piu' avanti parla di " paese esportatore". 
Una parola che andrebbe bene per entrambe le versioni gia' accennate di "flusso di turisti" e " fatturato" potrebbe essere " entrate"' ma forse bisognerebbe prima capire a quale delle due si riferisce il testo.


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## anglomania1

Ciao a tutti e grazie!
Wow, non pensavo che sarebbe partito una discussione così vasto!!
Il problema per me, come sempre, è quando usano un termine inglese con un significato diverso!!
Income = reddito 
incoming = solo aggettivo, riferito che una cosa/persona che entra/viene dentro - non è un sostantivo!!

Comunque, è giusto quello che alcuni di voi avete detto: incoming si riferisce a il flusso di operatori/visitatori.
Veronafiere is the association that organises Vinitaly, Italy's largest wine annual fair, and this year they invested a lot in services etc to increase *the flow of incoming visitors from abroad*.
This is how I would translate it. I had no idea it was used like this in Italian. Has anyone come across it before??
Thanks for all your help which sorted the meaning out in my head!!

Just one more thing, in this sentence from my first post above: e la Cina, che pur vedendo il Belpaese solo in sesta posizione tra i Paesi esportatori,

don't you think "importatori" should be used instead of "esportatori"? I mean, from China's point of view, Italy is an importer (China imports wine from Italy), it is from Italy's point of view that the Belpaese is an exporter, but the subject of the sentence is China!!

Thanks to everyone, 
Anglo


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## Fooler

anglomania1 said:


> Veronafiere is the association that organises Vinitaly, Italy's largest wine annual fair, and this year they invested a lot in services etc to increase *the (flow of) incoming visitors from abroad*.
> This is how I would translate it.  In Italian, as far I know, it is meant as _l'afflusso_, whether tourists, buyers, people etc etc.
> 
> Just one more thing, in this sentence from my first post above: e la Cina, che pur vedendo il Belpaese solo in sesta posizione tra i Paesi esportatori,
> 
> don't you think "importatori" should be used instead of "esportatori"?
> 
> ....._and China (as market/buyers) that, even if this latter acknowledges Italy in 6th position as exporter, is considered............_ I think they mean to let Chinese buyers (with their developing market as importers) enter into the Italian wine market; by doing so, Italy can gain higher positions as exporter



My point of view


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## anglomania1

Hi Fooler, thanks!
As for the second question, I think it might be a mistake by the author, but I can see where you're coming from!
It is not the Chinese that want to enter the Italian market (i.e. selling Chinese wine to Italy) but the opposite, the Italians want to export more Italian wine to China - as Italy is China's 6th most important wine *importer*, Italy can improve it's position and export more and more to the Chinese market (From the Chinese point of view that means *importing* more Italian wine). Though it says that the United States is the most important market for Italian wine, China is also very important.
Does that make sense?
anglo


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## Fooler

Hi anglo, I think you've got it right but the other way around  This is the sentence I read:

Also this year, Veronafiere has invested important resources to increase incoming buyers from abroad, concentrating above all on those markets that are strategic for Italy, like the United States (once again, our first buyer this year) and China, that, even if this latter acknowledges the Belpaese to be just the 6th exporter _(but I do not understand here if "6th" is of the World or of China only)_, is considered a really business attractive (market) for its developing potential

Hope it makes sense


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## MR1492

Fooler said:


> Hi anglo, I think you've got it right but the other way around  This is the sentence I read:
> 
> Also this year, Veronafiere has invested important resources to increase incoming buyers from abroad, concentrating above all on those markets that are strategic for Italy, like the United States (once again, our first buyer this year) and China, that, even if this latter acknowledges the Belpaese to be just the 6th exporter _(but I do not understand here if "6th" is of the World or of China only)_, is considered a really business attractive (market) for its developing potential
> 
> Hope it makes sense



I like what you have written, Fooler.  However, I'm a little concerned that our English readers might be a little confused as the original Italian uses income and incoming in ways that make including them in the translation problematical as anglo has pointed out.  I might suggest the following:

_Additionally, Veronafiere has invested significant resources intended to increase the number of foreign buyers.  They are concentrating mostly on those strategic markets for Italy, especially the United States (once again, our primary buyer this year) and China which is our 6th largest importer.  China is considered a very attractive, developing market for Italian products.
_
I also edited it a bit as the original in Italian when translated turns into a "run-on sentence" in English.  I've noticed that Italian is replete with very, very long sentences but modern English tends to favor shorter sentences.  This is especially true in business communications.

Phil


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## Fooler

Thank you, Phil. I think that Anglo has now the perfect translation . Just one point, according to the original Italian text as I see you English readers want to express the other way round: 
.........._and China which watches Italy as the 6th largest *ex*porter Country......it's _not the writer that says that but China: your translation sounds the other way round_
_
Does it makes sense if "exporter" ?



MR1492 said:


> I've noticed that Italian is replete with very, very long sentences but modern English tends to favor shorter sentences. This is especially true in business communications.



I agree 100%


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## MR1492

Thank you, Fooler.  I can't tell if the original is trying to say that "China is the sixth largest importer of Italian wines" (from the Italian perspective) or that "Italy is the sixth largest exporter of wine to China" (from the Chinese perspective.)  One can, of course, structure the sentence in either fashion and be correct.  How one writes it is mostly a matter of style and sound at that point.

Thanks again.

Phil


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## Lorena1970

Necsus said:


> Ciao, Lo.
> In quel caso avrebbero scritto "_verso _l'estero", non credi?



Dubito data la comprovata ignoranza giornalistica odierna e il vezzo di tentare "doppi sensi" da parte di autori che non sanno nemmeno scrivere decentemente in lingua madre (italiano)
Secondo me voleva alludere all' increasing (   ) del fatturato generato dall'aumento di mercati esteri alimentati da nuovi visitors  (   ). Ha tentato un rigore perfetto e ha fatto un autogol. Siamo specialisti in materia...



MR1492 said:


> _Additionally, Veronafiere has invested significant resources intended to increase the number of foreign buyers.  _



Appunto, ecco la conferma di ciò avevo capito ( e mal spiegato) e di ciò che il giornalista creativo voleva dire generando solo un memorabile caos. It's everyday....


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## anglomania1

Hi there and thanks to everyone!
I'd just like to clarify what the author intended to write (I checked!) and leave you to make your own conclusions about the use of Italian!!:

What Veronafiere wanted to increase was the *number of visitors* from abroad- the word "incoming" used in Italian has nothing whatsoever to do with money, turnover and income. The original sentence says that they particularly concentrated on strategic markets for Italian wines (China and US). The fair is a place to meet prospective buyers and customers, let them taste your wines and hopefully make useful contacts, but no money changes hands at the fair itself - you can't actually buy the wines. Of course everyone hopes this will lead to an increase in turnover in the future, but at the moment  it is just a chance to make business contacts. They used "incoming" for the number of visitors "coming in". Apparently it IS used like this in Italian.
From the above, we can see that two strategic *foreign markets for Italian wines* are the US and *China*. China imports wine from many countries and "vedendo il Belpaese solo in sesta posizione tra i Paesi esportatori" means that there are 5 countries who export even more volume of wine to China than Italy - which means that this market is particularly interesting for Italy as there is a lot of room for improvement. It is not talking about Italy being a market for Chinese wine. This is why, seeing that it is given from a Chinese point of view (è il Cina che vede il Belpaese al sesto posto per i loro imports), I though "importers" might be clearer than "exporters" (which might make you think China was doing the exporting, when they are actually importing Italian wine) boh!
I hope this is clear - how does it compare to the original Italian sentence (which seemed ambiguous to me on both accounts!!)?
Thanks again to everyone for your highly'valued input,
Anglo


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## Necsus

anglomania1 said:


> What Veronafiere wanted to increase was the *number of visitors* from abroad-


Appunto, come da definizione del Gabrielli che ho riportato nel post#3.


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## anglomania1

Necsus said:


> Appunto, come da definizione del Gabrielli che ho riportato nel post#3.


Hi Necsus, 
yes, I think most people understood it that way, but I just wanted to clarify as some mentioned "turnover"!
thanks, 
Anglo


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## Necsus

anglomania1 said:


> I just wanted to clarify as some mentioned "turnover"!


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## Fooler

anglomania1 said:


> Hi there and thanks to everyone!
> I'd just like to clarify what the author intended to write (I checked!) and leave you to make your own conclusions about the use of Italian!!:
> 
> What Veronafiere wanted to increase was the *number of visitors* from abroad- the word "incoming" used in Italian has nothing whatsoever to do with money, turnover and income. The original sentence says that they particularly concentrated on strategic markets for Italian wines (China and US). The fair is a place to meet prospective buyers and customers, let them taste your wines and hopefully make useful contacts, but no money changes hands at the fair itself - you can't actually buy the wines. Of course everyone hopes this will lead to an increase in turnover in the future, but at the moment  it is just a chance to make business contacts. They used "incoming" for the number of visitors "coming in". Apparently it IS used like this in Italian. *Yep, word borrowed from incoming passengers, visitors etc like here (the English right word should be inbound) that actually transitano da un ingresso (in this case the Verona Fair entrance, I suppose )*
> From the above, we can see that two strategic *foreign markets for Italian wines* are the US and *China*. China imports wine from many countries and "vedendo il Belpaese solo in sesta posizione tra i Paesi esportatori" means that there are 5 countries who export even more volume of wine to China than Italy - which means that this market is particularly interesting for Italy as there is a lot of room for improvement.   It is not talking about Italy being a market for Chinese wine. This is why, seeing that it is given from a Chinese point of view (è *la* Cina che vede il Belpaese al sesto posto per i loro imports), I though "importers" might be clearer than "exporters" (which might make you think China was doing the exporting, when they are actually importing Italian wine) boh!
> I hope this is clear - how does it compare to the original Italian sentence (which seemed ambiguous to me on both accounts!!)?
> Thanks again to everyone for your highly'valued input,
> Anglo


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## anglomania1

Very interesting Fooler, 
I hadn't thought of inbound, though it does make me think of a flight rather than people!!!
The problem with the sentence is that they have used "incoming" as a noun when it's really an adjective!
Thanks
Anglo


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## tsoapm

I have a explanation from a (unnamed of course) exhibition-related client from 3 years ago that I shall paraphrase and translate. According to them:

_To us_, incoming _means selecting foreign operators according to certain criteria then inviting them to and accompanying them, expenses paid, at national exhibitions.
_
I guess that’s their specific version of the more general idea already described quite near the start of the thread.


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## MR1492

Anglo,

This might be a case where you will have to translate the Italian-English into regular English and not even use "income" or "incoming" in a translation!

Phil


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## anglomania1

tsoapm said:


> I have a explanation from a (unnamed of course) exhibition-related client from 3 years ago that I shall paraphrase and translate. According to them:
> 
> _To us_, incoming _means selecting foreign operators according to certain criteria then inviting them to and accompanying them, expenses paid, at national exhibitions._


Hi tsoapm,
is that an Italian or English definition?? I mean, was the client Italian and gave you this definition?
Thanks,
Anglo
@ Phil - precisely!!


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## tsoapm

The original was IT.


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## anglomania1

tsoapm said:


> The original was IT.


Thought so! I think Phil has the right idea!
Veronafiere just wanted to increase visitors from certain potential and strategic markets!!
Thanks, 
Anglo


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## Pietruzzo

Per me la parte difficile è il titolo "income e welcome Asia". Sospetto che dal nome inventato "incoming" abbiano ricavato il verbo inventato "income" per cui il senso sarebbe "vieni qui e benvenuta Asia"


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## anglomania1

Pietruzzo said:


> Per me la parte difficile è il titolo "income e welcome Asia". Sospetto che dal nome inventato "incoming" abbiano ricavato il verbo inventato "income" per cui il senso sarebbe "vieni qui e benvenuta Asia"


Esatto!
I think it could be something like "Incoming (and welcome) visitors from Asia" - both "incoming" and  "welcome" used as adjectives!
Anglo


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