# Question about "magic" in many languages



## Pavielpetrovich

A while ago I learned that the Japanese word for magic was "mahou", and it occurred to me that that word looked a bit like the English word "magic."

I know from my studies of Latin and Greek that the English word "magic" is related to the Latin word "magus" and the Greek word "magos," and etymonline informs me that those words come from an Old Persian word "magush" that refers to a caste of Zoroastrian priests. (Source: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=magic&allowed_in_frame=0)

I did a bit of light reading about Japanese too, and I learned that the character that puts the "ma" in "mahou" is derived from the Sanskrit word "mara" that means "demon."

Is there any connection between the Old Persian word "magush" and the Sanskrit word "mara"?


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## fdb

māra- is the god of death in Hindu and Buddhist traditions and belongs to the root mar- “to die”. magu- in Iranian is a kind of priest. There is not any real similarity, either in form or in meaning.


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## sotos

In Japanese sometimes some chinese characters (kanji) are used for their phonetic value. Their relation with the meaning may be remote and obscure. For example, the letter that means "america" is the same that means "rice".


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## Ghabi

Hi! In Buddhism _māra_ is anything that disturbs your mental peace, and doesn't necessarily has to do with supernatural beings. In Japanese one still says _o-jama shimasu_ ("I'm going to disturb ...") when entering someone's house etc.


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## entangledbank

I believe _mag-_ is one of several Indo-European words anciently borrowed into Chinese, but if the Japanese element is not Sino-Japanese, that's not relevant.


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## Ghabi

It's from Chinese. _māra_ entered Chinese as *_mala_ (摩羅/魔羅), later abbreviated as *_ma_ (which due to sound change has become 魔 mo2 in Mandarin, is still a productive morpheme in modern Chinese, for example 色魔 "sex offender"). But the question is whether the Sanskrit root √mṛ is related to Iranian _magu-_, which seems unlikely as fdb suggests above.


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## aruniyan

Ghabi said:


> It's from Chinese. _māra_ entered Chinese as *_mala_ (摩羅/魔羅), later abbreviated as *_ma_ (which due to sound change has become 魔 mo2 in Mandarin, is still a productive morpheme in modern Chinese, for example 色魔 "sex offender"). But the question is whether the Sanskrit root √mṛ is related to Iranian _magu-_, which seems unlikely as fdb suggests above.



The Indian words _Maai, Maaya, MaayaJaal_ may be related with Majic.


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## Dhira Simha

You may also add to your collection also Skt. _maga _मग `magian, a priest of the sun'


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## Lugubert

aruniyan said:


> The Indian words _Maai, Maaya, MaayaJaal_ may be related with Majic.


Trying to transcribe your examples and referring to Platts, McGregor and Monier-Williams, I'm confused. Which Indian words in what languages? Please supply Devanagari and explain how the g in Latin, Greek, English, German, Swedish, ... becomes or arises from nothing corresponding to nothing, y or j in India.


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## ancalimon

In Turkish magic: büyü < bükü ~bökü

I'm guessing that it comes from bük meaning "twist, bend, weave, curve" (as in twisting reality)

I also think that there could be a relationship between magi and büyü.


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## aruniyan

Lugubert said:


> Trying to transcribe your examples and referring to Platts, McGregor and Monier-Williams, I'm confused. Which Indian words in what languages? Please supply Devanagari and explain how the g in Latin, Greek, English, German, Swedish, ... becomes or arises from nothing corresponding to nothing, y or j in India.



I take it back, I am not sure about the word magic, as its traced back to  Persian *noun*.

The word _*maay(to disappear)*_ is available in all Indian languages. There is also the word *mayangu*(short a) in Tamil meaning _to faint, stun, loosing mind_
may not be related to magic, but seems related with other languages

http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/re...ta/nostr/nostret&text_number=+641&root=config


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## marrish

aruniyan said:


> The word _*maay(to disappear)*_ is available in all Indian languages.


Not in Urdu, for sure. In Urdu the word for magic is '_jaaduu_'.


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## ancalimon

marrish said:


> Not in Urdu, for sure. In Urdu the word for magic is '_jaaduu_'.



Maybe that word is related with Turkish "cadı" meaning "witch"?


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## momai

"ceħer" in Arabic .


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## marrish

ancalimon said:


> Maybe that word is related with Turkish "cadı" meaning "witch"?


I think it is because _jaaduu_ is of Persian origins which seems to be shared by T and U. What is the word for magic in Turkish?


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## ancalimon

marrish said:


> I think it is because _jaaduu_ is of Persian origins which seems to be shared by T and U. What is the word for magic in Turkish?



Didn't realize cadı (witch) was a Persian loan in Turkish.

"Magic" is "Büyü" in Turkish as I have written above.


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## marrish

ancalimon said:


> Didn't realize cadı (witch) was a Persian loan in Turkish.
> 
> "Magic" is "Büyü" in Turkish as I have written above.


I'm very sorry for having skipped your contribution about Turkish above. I don't know if cadı is related but the pronunciation, as far as I can read Turkish, and the scope of meaning points to it.


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## aruniyan

marrish said:


> Not in Urdu, for sure. In Urdu the word for magic is '_jaaduu_'.



Yes, but Urdu is mostly Farsi, Arabic and some Hindi.

Hindi has Maaya, Moh etc.. that means illusion, fainting, stunned etc, so there are no loans or cognates in Urdu?


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## ancalimon

aruniyan said:


> Yes, but Urdu is mostly Farsi, Arabic and some Hindi.
> 
> Hindi has Maaya, Moh etc.. that means illusion, fainting, stunned etc, so there are no loans or cognates in Urdu?




Maybe

*Maay*: fainting is related with Turkish: *Bay* (<May) :to stun, to faint, to pass out, to swoon, to like something very much.

Is there such a word in Urdu?


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## berndf

aruniyan said:


> Yes, but Urdu is mostly Farsi, Arabic and some Hindi.


This claim is absurd. Irrespective of whether you call Urdu and Hindi different registers or the same language or different languages, they are certainly closer to one another that either is to Farsi (and certainly to Arabic which belongs to an entirely different language family).



aruniyan said:


> Hindi has Maaya, Moh etc.. that means illusion, fainting, stunned etc, so there are no loans or cognates in Urdu?


_Jaaduu_ (जादू) is also the Hindi word for _magic_.


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## fdb

<....>

Avestan yātu-, Middle Persian jādūg, New Persian jādū all mean “sorcerer”, though the NP word is also used for “sorcery” (MP. jādūgīh). All of these words are essentially negative (sorcerers are wicked, and in a Zoroastrian context are servants of Ahreman), as opposed to magu- (the Zoroastrian priest and etymon of “magus, magic, magician”). Turkish cadı (with c = /dʒ/) and Urdu/Hindi jādū are both borrowed from New Persian.


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## aruniyan

berndf said:


> This claim is absurd. Irrespective of whether you call Urdu and Hindi different registers or the same language or different languages, they are certainly closer to one another that either is to Farsi (and certainly to Arabic which belongs to an entirely different language family).
> 
> _Jaaduu_ (जादू) is also the Hindi word for _magic_.



As far as I see, Hindi and Urdu differs by the percentage of Persian and Arabic? Hindi is more Indian and Urdu is more Persian and Arabic?
Yes जादू is magic. available in Persian but cognate with Sanskrit yAtu.


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## fdb

Of course: Iranian yātu- is cognate with Skt. yātu-. But the phonetic development to jādū can only be explained via Middle and New Persian.


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## imti

According to my research the origin of word magic is Arabic word مُعْجزہ (Mjzہ)


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## berndf

imti said:


> According to my research the origin of word magic is Arabic word مُعْجزہ (Mjzہ)


Can you please substantiate this? Just about everyone else seems to agree on an Iranian origin.


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## إسكندراني

imti said:


> According to my research the origin of word magic is Arabic word مُعْجزہ (Mjzہ)


This means miracle not magic. 
The usual Arabic word for magic, as mentioned already, is سحر siHr, and its meaning includes acts of deception and trickery to fool the observer, as well as 'black magic' where spirits (djinn) are contacted, curses cast and such.
The word مجوس (madjuus) exists but does not mean magic, only Zoroastrian.


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## marrish

berndf said:


> This claim is absurd. Irrespective of whether you call Urdu and Hindi different registers or the same language or different languages, they are certainly closer to one another that either is to Farsi (and certainly to Arabic which belongs to an entirely different language family).
> 
> _Jaaduu_ (जादू) is also the Hindi word for _magic_.


OK, we have it that it is the loanword from Persian in Urdu and subsequently in Hindi. Given that this forum is not only about Etymology but also about the History of languages, your rebuttal is good for both. In Indo-Iranian Languages Forum we have dealt with it many times. Urdu was first and then came Hindi on basis of it. Anyways, good comment.


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## Wolverine9

marrish said:


> OK, we have it that it is the loanword from Persian in Urdu and subsequently in Hindi. Given that this forum is not only about Etymology but also about the History of languages, your rebuttal is good for both. In Indo-Iranian Languages Forum we have dealt with it many times. Urdu was first and then came Hindi on basis of it.



That depends on whether you mean the spoken or the written language.  Spoken Hindi and Urdu were and still are largely the same, so one cannot say that either came before the other.  If your comment is from the perspective of writing, then yes, written Urdu predates written Hindi.


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## marrish

Wolverine9 said:


> That depends on whether you mean the spoken or the written language.  Spoken Hindi and Urdu were and still are largely the same, so one cannot say that either came before the other.  If your comment is from the perspective of writing, then yes, written Urdu predates written Hindi.


Returning to the topic at hand, the term in both spoken Urdu and Hindi (historically Modern Standard Hindi has been implemented only for a fraction of time of Urdu's existence) is _jaaduu_ or _jaaduu-Tonaa_. It's evident that it's a P. loanword and it by itself shows the pertinency of Urdu expressions in the spoken language, whatever it's called. In my Hindi experience I've never heard of '_abhichaar_', I heard ''_shadDyantra_'' but it is something different. And yes, I heard _maijik_ often enough for it to be mentioned here


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## Qureshpor

fdb said:


> <....>
> 
> Avestan yātu-, Middle Persian jādūg, New Persian jādū all mean “sorcerer”, though the NP word is also used for “sorcery” (MP. jādūgīh). All of these words are essentially negative (sorcerers are wicked, and in a Zoroastrian context are servants of Ahreman), as opposed to magu- (the Zoroastrian priest and etymon of “magus, magic, magician”). Turkish cadı (with c = /dʒ/) and Urdu/Hindi jādū are both borrowed from New Persian.


This is interesting. I thought "jaaduu" was magic/sorcery and "jaaduu-gar" was a "magician/sorcerer".


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## ThomasK

As a lurker I find this very interesting, but I am not sure I can follow: has evidence been given here for the claim that the _mag_- root is common to many of the above-mentioned languages? (Thanks in advance for any answer)


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## fdb

ThomasK said:


> has evidence been given here for the claim that the _mag_- root is common to many of the above-mentioned languages? (Thanks in advance for any answer)



No. magu- is Iranian. In all the other languages the "magic" word is derived from Old Persian maguš, via Greek magos.


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## Canbek

I.E :magh=  might, power-----Avestan/Old Persian: magus, maeg, megan,moghu=  Zoroastrian priest and  magus(s marked)=magician--------to Pahlawi:  magu=Zoroastrian priest-------to Persian: moğ=Zoroastrian priest....  ....From Avestan/Old Persian  to: 1- Arabic:majûs=Zoroastrian,   2-  Greek:mağos------to Latin:magus---to English+French:magic....In Persian   it also  forms " majûs"  and in Kurdish "mecûs(î)" however,  a loan  word from Arabic " majûs"  which is actually a loan word from  Avestan/Old Persian " magus".


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## fdb

Most of this has been discussed already and there is no need to repeat it. Just this much: Old Iranian _magu-_ means “priest”, not “magician”. _maguš_ is the Old Persian nominative singular (_š_ is the case ending). This was borrowed already into Achaemenid Aramaic as _magūš-ā_ (later Aramaic _mγūšā_), and into Greek as _magos_. Arabic _majūs_ is borrowed from Aramaic, not directly from Old Persian or Avestan.


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## Canbek

1- ) I thought it might be a printing error and  checked the  spellings... Old Iranian " magus" or "maeg" or "megan" or  "moghu"=  Zoroastrian priest... If we consider it  as " Mohgu"  rather than  "magus" than   it becomes  In Pahlawi  in  " Magu" form, which becomes  "Moğ" in Persian...Means  Zoroastrian Priest.

2-)  Considering  the Aramaic language's official and culturel status and dominance  in  Achaemenid  Empire, It would be  quiet right to accept  your statement of  "  Arabic _majūs_ is borrowed from Aramaic, not directly from Old  Persian or Avestan."...However, I also consider that " Magi"  was a  powerful not only a priestly cast, but also one of the main tribal  components of Media-Medes era...Before the Medes Empire found, say  around seventh century BCE, these tribal components  were existed   starting from tenth  century BCE...So, Magi priests might have had an  influence over some people in Lower Mesopotamia  even in Arabic  Peninsula...Aramaic became noticable  around 8 th century  and   dominant  in Iran  in sixth BCE...Word could be borrowed during  Neo-Assyrian era, before the advent of Aramaic language and its  dominance...But, I'm unable to provide further evidence...So,my  source  hasn't  mentioned Aramaic, rather pointed out Arabic as a borrower from  Old Irani...In this case,I admit, your argument  looks  more realistic.


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## franknagy

The Hungarian language has has own words derived from _varázs_ (=[women's] attractive force ) _varázsló_ = magician, and _varázslatos_=magic[al], _varázserő_= magic power.
The treated magic is used in Hungarian as _mágikus_, the magician is _mágus_.


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