# Eres nacido aquí



## purasbabosadas

In the Spanish spoken by people living in the US I've heard ser+nacido many times,with me even being corrected by them when I say:"Nací... ".
Browsing through YouTube,I came across a video about the Spanish spoken in Aragón(In Spain).In it,one of the people said:"Soy nacido aquí",which is exactly like what I've heard here in the US.Is this a relic from old Spanish where ser+past participle is used for some intransitive verbs?(Similar to "Je suis né" in French and "Io sono nato" in Italian)


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## Olaszinhok

According to my Spanish grammar, one can say:
_Nacì or he nacido_, that _soy nacido_ sounds really odd to me, but I am not a native speaker.


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## jmx

There is a subtle difference between "he nacido aquí/nací aquí" and "soy nacido aquí", at least in my way of speaking. The first sentence states a fact, the second one a trait of mine. I happen to be born in Aragón, however I suppose that the sentence is possible in other parts of Spain too.

I guess other similar sentences with "ser" + participle are possible, always with the idea of "one of my characteristics is ...". I can't find any as common as "ser nacido", though.


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## merquiades

_Nací_ or _he nacido_ is just an action, a full-fledged verb, which unfortunately doesn't translate well into English:  _Nací en Chicago_.  I was born in Chicago. The verb is "to be born".
However, I feel _nacido_ in _soy nacido_ as an adjective and not a verb at all.   _Soy alto, rubio, y nacido en Chicago_.  It describes the inherent characteristics of a person. I am tall, blond, and born and made in Chicago.  You don't need to speak this way though.


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## Sardokan1.0

It sounds perfectly logical "Soy nacido aquí". The expression is nearly identical in both Italian and Sardinian.

Spanish : Soy nacido aquí.
Italian : Sono nato qui.
Sardinian : So nàschidu in hoche.
French : Je suis né ici.


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## Penyafort

Be careful with Aragon. Even if Aragonese is restricted today to a few northern towns, the Spanish spoken in all Aragon shows traces of its influence from time to time. In Aragonese, ser can be used as an auxiliary in the same way that it is often used in Italian or French: _soi naixiu aquí, ye naixida de Uesca. 
_
However, in this case, it could simply be another way of expressing it in Spanish itself.


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## Circunflejo

Penyafort said:


> However, in this case, it could simply be another way of expressing it in Spanish itself.



I've heard it in Castile too.


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## Olaszinhok

Sardokan1.0 said:


> It sounds perfectly logical "Soy nacido aquí". The expression is nearly identical in both Italian and Sardinian.



Sorry Sandokan, but your statement does not make sense to me. In Spanish to be/_ser_ is used as an auxiliary verb only for the passive voice, like in English. Every language has its own rules and Spanish is not Italian, nor Sardinian. Native speakers can obviously say whatever they want: Spanish is their language not mine, after all  but   I'm still convinced that _soy nacid_o is not Standard Spanish. It may be used in certain areas both in Spain and in South America.


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## Olaszinhok

Circunflejo said:


> No, because if it was a female it would be soy nacida.


Actually it is _soy nacida en Aragon:_


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## Sardokan1.0

Olaszinhok said:


> Sorry Sandokan, but your statement does not make sense to me. In Spanish to be/_ser_ is used as an auxiliary verb only for the passive voice, like in English. Every language has its own rules and Spanish is not Italian, nor Sardinian. Native speakers can obviously say whatever they want: Spanish is their language not mine, after all  but   I'm still convinced that _soy nacid_o is not Standard Spanish. It may be used in certain areas both in Spain and in South America.



We have to think that languages are not immutable granite blocks, in the same way Vulgar Latin was not the same everywhere, the use of some idiomatic expressions prevailed in some areas while in other areas they use other expressions, it seems to be the case of this particular expression, it's used in Aragon but not in other areas. It is genuine Spanish? or it's derived from Aragonese?


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## Circunflejo

Sardokan1.0 said:


> it's used in Aragon but not in other areas



It's used in other areas too. As I said above, I've heard it in Castile. If you take a look at the CREA (Real Academia Española - CREA), you can find several examples of the use of _es nacido_ and _es nacida_ both in Spain and in the Americas. You can also find isolated examples of _soy nacido_ and _soy nacida_. I don't know where were born some of the authors of the quotes but among those that I know where they were born or they state it in the text, there's people from Aragón, León and Alcalá de Henares (Madrid province).



Olaszinhok said:


> Actually it is _soy nacida en Aragon:_



It doesn't change my statement. The point that I was unsucessfully trying to make was: in haber+participio, the participio doesn't change gender. Example ella ha nacido. Ella ha nacida. On the other hand, soy nacido and soy nacida. But I overlooked that the_ participios de los verbos inacusativos_ do change gender and number as stated at 27.9b: RAE::NUEVA GRAMÁTICA And that do change the statement I made to answer to the original question (and therefore I'll edit it right now). It may be a relic from Old Spanish (see the last link I provide on this post) as @purasbabosadas said. However, I agree with @merquiades that


merquiades said:


> I feel _nacido_ in _soy nacido_ as an adjective


. And I also agree with what @jmx said:



jmx said:


> The first sentence states a fact, the second one a trait of mine.



I think that an example of that use of nacido(s) can be the one quoted on the third line of the paragraph just before 33.9b at RAE::NUEVA GRAMÁTICA I think it's the same case than _soy aburrido_; just in case another example would help to understand it better.



Olaszinhok said:


> In Spanish to be/_ser_ is used as an auxiliary verb only for the passive voice, like in English.



Take a look at the 41.4b and 41.c at: RAE::NUEVA GRAMÁTICA But I think the main question here is if _ser_ in this case is an auxiliary verb (in which case the answer to the original question would be yes) or if it isn't it.


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## merquiades

In this case, the case of the person who opened the thread,  I do not think it has anything to do with Aragon.  Many Latin Americans from a number of countries use the structure when describing themselves. Perú, for example, "Soy nacida y criada en Arequipa", I heard recently.  "Fue muerto" can also be heard sporadically too, by the way.  Correct or not, it's out there.  Influence from the Aragonese language may well be the reason for its continued use in Aragon but that can't really explain the extensive usage outside Aragon.,


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## Olaszinhok

d





Circunflejo said:


> But I overlooked that the_ participios de los verbos inacusativos_ do change gender and number as stated at 27.9b: RAE::NUEVA GRAMÁTICA And that do change the statement


Yes, of course. In ancient Spanish _ser_ could be used as an auxiliary verb for the active voice too, like in Italian and, to a lesser extent, in French; however, it is not the case in modern Spanish, the same occurs in Standard Catalan and Portuguese.



Circunflejo said:


> And I also agree with what @jmx said:


I can understand that and Merquiades' example makes sense to me; _soy alto, rubio y nacido in Chigago_. Nevertheless,  now a question arises: if it is an acceptable expression in Spanish, why do most native speakers perceive_ soy naci_do as unnatural, odd or even incorrect?
You can also have a look at this:
Ser nacido



Circunflejo said:


> the same case than _soy aburrido_.



I reckon that is different: as you know you can say: _soy/estoy cansado, aburrido, feliz, guapo, etc_. it depends on temporary vs permanent conditions.


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## Circunflejo

Olaszinhok said:


> I reckon that is different: as you know you can say: _soy/estoy cansado, aburrido, contento, etc_. it depends on temporary vs permanent conditions.



I don't think so. In estoy aburrido, aburrido is a temporary situation. On the other hand, in soy aburrido, aburrido is a permanent situation (in other words, it's a trait of me) just like soy nacido in X is a permanent situation (another trait of me). Soy alto, rubio, taciturno, depresivo, aburrido y nacido en X.



Olaszinhok said:


> Nevertheless, now a question arises: if it is an acceptable expression in Spanish, why most native speakers perceive_ soy naci_do as unnatural, odd or even incorrect?



I can think of two reasons:


Lack of knowledge (and/or acceptance) of the richness of the language and all its varieties.
Inhability to see it as an adjective.


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## berndf

jmx said:


> There is a subtle difference between "he nacido aquí/nací aquí" and "soy nacido aquí", at least in my way of speaking. The first sentence states a fact, the second one a trait of mine. I happen to be born in Aragón, however I suppose that the sentence is possible in other parts of Spain too.
> 
> I guess other similar sentences with "ser" + participle are possible, always with the idea of "one of my characteristics is ...". I can't find any as common as "ser nacido", though.


That sounds awfully familiar. In my language there are two distinct passive voices: one is formed with the auxiliary verb _werden_ (_to become, to grow_) and the past participle, which describes an event in the passive voice, and one formed with the auxiliary verb _sein_ (_to be_) and the past participle, which describes a state caused by an action upon its patient. Applied to the verb _gebären_ (_to bear_), I can express I was born in Hamburg in two way: _Ich wurde in Hamburg geboren_. This decribes für event of my birth and where it happened. Or I could say: _Ich bin in Hamburg geboren_. This sentence describes me as a native of Hamburg.

In German, the distinction between these two passive voices is fully grammaticalized and can be applied to all verbs. Is there something similar in Spanish or is this distinction a peculiarity of these expressions?


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## Olaszinhok

First of all, I'm not sure that the above construction is Standard Spanish, as I said in my previous posts, but I am not a native speaker. In my opinion, you can find tons of different expressions in every language, but not all of them are standard, some may just be regional, archaic and so forth.
I think no one would say in Spanish _Cuando soy nacido or soy nacido en 2000.



berndf said:



			In German, the distinction between these two passive voices is fully grammaticalized and can be applied to all verbs. Is there something similar in Spanish or is this distinction a peculiarity of these expressions?
		
Click to expand...

_
I have also read this:
Geboren werden oder nur gebürtig sein

I don't think there's something similar in Spanish and _soy nacido_ is not passive if_ nacido_ is an adjective as in: _soy rubio, guapo, alto, delgado and so forth. _However, let us wait for native speakers' opinions, I have even said too much in this thread.


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## berndf

Olaszinhok said:


> I don't think there's something similar in Spanish and _soy nacido_ is not passive if_ nacido_ is an adjective


A past participle of a transitive verb is always passive in meaning, independently of whether it is used as a verbal or as a deverbal adjective, isn't it?


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## Olaszinhok

berndf said:


> A past participle of a transitive verb is always passive in meaning, independently of whether it is used as a verbal or as a deverbal adjective, isn't it?



Yes it is, but you should not have cut the second part of my sentence: if _nacido_ is an adjective as in: soy rubio, guapo, delgato and so forth. These are the examples that the native speakers have made, after all.


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## berndf

Olaszinhok said:


> Yes it is, but you should not have cut the second part of my sentence: if _nacido_ is an adjective as in: soy rubio, guapo, delgato and so forth.


I had noticed that and that is why I added: _independently of whether it is used as a verbal or as a *deverbal* adjective_.


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## Circunflejo

Olaszinhok said:


> I think no one would say in Spanish _Cuando soy nacido_



That one wouldn't be usual.



Olaszinhok said:


> soy nacido en 2000



This one is more usual. Soy nacido en el 2000. Nací en el 2000, of course, is also possible as well as soy del 2000.


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## Olaszinhok

Soy nacido en 2000 or en el 2000 sounds  odd to me, really.


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## Penyafort

Olaszinhok said:


> the same occurs in Standard Catalan and Portuguese.



While it's true that modern Standard Catalan uses the auxiliary be mainly for the passive, I'd say the use of it in such constructions as 'be born/dead' is more common than in Spanish. Hearing "és nat" and "és mort" is relatively common in formal/literary/elegant speech.



Olaszinhok said:


> I can understand that and Merquiades' example makes sense to me; _soy alto, rubio y nacido in Chigago_. Nevertheless,  now a question arises: if it is an acceptable expression in Spanish, why do most native speakers perceive_ soy naci_do as unnatural, odd or even incorrect?



In my opinion, it has been mostly answered. As an auxiliary, it is not used these days. As an attribute, it can be, and that is why it has to agree in gender and number. Much as the adjectives "nativo", "oriundo" or "original" would. This explains why it sounds odd to most people but can be correct at the same time. 

Not to mention the fact, as it has also been stated, that traces from Old Spanish or other languages may have helped to maintain this locally, and as such they are accepted but usually regarded as either a regional or old-fashioned variation. In other words, it doesn't sound odd to my ears, but I'd expect to find it either in books or in dialectal spoken speech. (Dialectal as in a variety of a language, not in the way _dialetti _are understood in Italy)


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## Olaszinhok

Penyafort said:


> In other words, it doesn't sound odd to my ears, but I'd expect to find it either in books or in dialectal spoken speech.



Thank you. Everything is clear to me and I am also a bit relieved…


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## merquiades

berndf said:


> That sounds awfully familiar. In my language there are two distinct passive voices: one is formed with the auxiliary verb _werden_ (_to become, to grow_) and the past participle, which describes an event in the passive voice, and one formed with the auxiliary verb _sein_ (_to be_) and the past participle, which describes a state caused by an action upon its patient. Applied to the verb _gebären_ (_to bear_), I can express I was born in Hamburg in two way: _Ich wurde in Hamburg geboren_. This decribes für event of my birth and where it happened. Or I could say: _Ich bin in Hamburg geboren_. This sentence describes me as a native of Hamburg.
> 
> In German, the distinction between these two passive voices is fully grammaticalized and can be applied to all verbs. Is there something similar in Spanish or is this distinction a peculiarity of these expressions?


I don't know if this can be compared to German.  Maybe?
What would _Ich wurde in Berlin geboren _mean?  and how would it be different than _ Ich bin in Berlin geboren_?
_Nacer_ is an active verb with a passive meaning:  to be born.  The active meaning of "bear, give birth to a child" corresponds to another verb _parir_.  As any active verb in Spanish only one auxiliary is possible:  _haber_ (to have).   So we could say:  _Hoy ha nacido un niño_.   A child was born today.   Quite different than_ hoy ha parido a un niño_.   She gave birth to a child today.
_Soy nacido/a_ is being used as an attribute, similar to saying something like "I define myself as born", in the same sense as tall, blond, athletic and German.  People find fault with that because it's a weird use of a past participle as an adjective (there is gender agreement), and the verb _ser_ (to be, permanent) can only be used with a verb as a true passive in Spanish.  So _Soy nacido/a _sounds similar to the structure in "the house is built by the workers".  That's why it sounds off to some, and yet, others use it naturally.


Penyafort said:


> In my opinion, it has been mostly answered. As an auxiliary, it is not used these days. As an attribute, it can be, and that is why it has to agree in gender and number. Much as the adjectives "nativo", "oriundo" or "original" would. This explains why it sounds odd to most people but can be correct at the same time.
> 
> Not to mention the fact, as it has also been stated, that traces from Old Spanish or other languages may have helped to maintain this locally, and as such they are accepted but usually regarded as either a regional or old-fashioned variation. In other words, it doesn't sound odd to my ears, but I'd expect to find it either in books or in dialectal spoken speech. (Dialectal as in a variety of a language, not in the way _dialetti _are understood in Italy)


  This might be a continental take on the subject.  Besides the video of the Aragonese woman singing I haven't ever heard _Soy nacido/a_ in Spain.  Do you hear this? However, Latin Americans, some even educated, seem to say this with no problem.  I'm guessing they probably wouldn't if they thought it were bookish, archaic or dialectal.


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## berndf

merquiades said:


> What would _Ich wurde in Berlin geboren _mean? and how would it be different than _ Ich bin in Berlin geboren_?


I thought I had described that:


berndf said:


> Applied to the verb _gebären_ (_to bear_), I can express I was born in Hamburg in two way: _Ich wurde in Hamburg geboren_. This decribes [the] event of my birth and where it happened. Or I could say: _Ich bin in Hamburg geboren_. This sentence describes me as a native of Hamburg.


Is it not clear?


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## Circunflejo

merquiades said:


> Besides the video of the Aragonese woman singing I haven't ever heard _Soy nacido/a_ in Spain.



Make a search online for "soy nacido en Madrid" and you'll get thousands of results. The same is true if you make it for "soy nacida en Madrid". I would provide links to videos too but it's not allowed. You can search too "soy nacida en Málaga", "soy nacido en Sevilla", "soy nacida en Salamanca", "soy nacido en Asturias" or soy nacido/a followed by any Spanish city or province and I'm pretty sure that you'll get some results for all of them (at least in one of the variants nacido or nacida).


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## merquiades

berndf said:


> Applied to the verb _gebären_ (_to bear_), I can express I was born in Hamburg in two way: _Ich wurde in Hamburg geboren_. This decribes für event of my birth and where it happened. Or I could say: _Ich bin in Hamburg geboren_. This sentence describes me as a native of Hamburg.


_Ich bin in Hamburg geboren_ is the equivalent of saying I am a Hamburger.  Could you say _Ich bin in 1980 geboren_?  



Circunflejo said:


> Make a search online for "soy nacido en Madrid" and you'll get thousands of results. The same is true if you make it for "soy nacida en Madrid". I would provide links to videos too but it's not allowed. You can search too "soy nacida en Málaga", "soy nacido en Sevilla", "soy nacida en Salamanca", "soy nacido en Asturias" or soy nacido/a followed by any Spanish city or province and I'm pretty sure that you'll get some results for all of them (at least in one of the variants nacido or nacida).


This may yet turn out to be one of those things like leísmo which everyone believes is wrong and only locally used but in reality is widespread everywhere.


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## berndf

merquiades said:


> Could you say _Ich bin in 1980 geboren_?


Yes, if you want to indicate your age group.


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