# Zúñiga (spelling)



## yercygo

Hi everybody!!!

I wonder how people in English *spell *words that have characters that don't exist in their alphabet. For example:

*Zúñiga*: z - u with an accent mark (?) - n with tilde (?) - i - g - a 

So is it ok? Would it be understood? 

or *cigüeña*: c - i - g - u with dieresis - e - ñ - a

Is it ok? How would it be commonly spelled?

I also wonder if Spanish last names change when they have to be written in English, such as last names with ñ (Zúñiga, Núñez, Peña), with accents (Huamán, Pérez).

Thank you.
yercygo


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## tonyray

Hi

As a general rule of thumb and from what I've seen, Hispanic last names in English almost never have the accent mark. However, if the name has n with a tilde, then it is written. I'm generalizing, but most Americans would not know how to pronounce a name with an accent mark but most do know how to pronounce the "ñ" so it's usually written. 
-Tony


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## Soy Yo

If we can write résumé, I don't know why we can't include accent marks on Spanish names.  But that's neither here nor there.  There must be norms for writing accent marks on foreign names and words in English.


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## diegodbs

Soy Yo said:
			
		

> If we can write résumé, I don't know why we can't include accent marks on Spanish names. But that's neither here nor there. There must be norms for writing accent marks on foreign names and words in English.


That's a good question. If you can write in English résumé, élan, pâte or naïve, why can't you write López, Andrés or Cristóbal in Spanish?

Examples from British newspapers:

They had set out with snowshoes on Friday to walk up part of the 3,478-metre high Mulhacen, Spain's highest peak, two and a half times higher than Ben Nevis. *(no accent, it should be written Mulhacén)* (By the way, the Mulhacén is not Spain's highest peak, but the Teide 3,718 metres)

The eruption of Pelée in 1902, on the Caribbean island of Martinique, killed 26,000 people. (*a French word with an accent)*


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## yercygo

I guess I'm more confused now.

So if my last name is "Núñez" and i were asked to spell my last name, how am I supposed to answer?
What about Agüero?
Or how am I supposed to spell résumé??

Thank you for your help!!!


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## Residente Calle 13

In the US, I see Gonzalez, Cristobal, Nuñez, Aguero. Pronunciation is neither here nor there. Most people pronounce these in an anglicized form anyway. My last name is Italian and almost nobody pronounces it correctly including people in the Dominican Repulic where my parents are from.

By the way, the same works for many last names that come from languages who have accent marks. I have yet to see an American spell his name "Kohler" for example. Even the faucet company eschews the diacritc mark. And I see *Desiree *more often then I see *Désirée*.

In a nutshell, names have spelling rules of their own. It's up to whoever writes them to write them as they wish and usually if somebody called "Andrés" insists on the mark it's written that way to please that person. If not, it's "Andres". My mother's last name has an accent but she does not care to write it and neither does anybody else.

We don't write them, in most cases, as they are written in their original languages just like we don't write Hussein in Arabic script or Chang using the Chinese symbol for it.

That's not the rule (I doubt there is one) but just the way things are done here.


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## Outsider

Soy Yo said:
			
		

> There must be norms for writing accent marks on foreign names and words in English.


I don't believe there are. If most English speakers ignore diacritics on foreign names, it's simply because they are not used to diacritics, and may not know how do write them in a keyboard.


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## yercygo

ok. So How do i asnwer:
How do you spell Núñez?
I mean, what *words* am i supposed to say ?

And how do they teach children to spell résumé or café?

Thanks.


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## Residente Calle 13

The Chicago Manual of Style says most accents in names are omitted and that in scholarly works the accents should be retained.

In the US, you can write your name in the Latin alphabet as you please and no matter how silly it seems to any American, they will indulge you. We are a very PC people and besides the spelling system is already terrible and inconsistent. We have nothing to fear.


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## Residente Calle 13

yercygo said:
			
		

> And how do they teach children to spell résumé or café?
> 
> Thanks.


The answer is that we don't. Many of those accents are optional. You don't need the accent in *resumé*. My dictionary says *cafe does not *have an accent. I write *resumé *and *café* because I'm a snob eager to show that I can write French. I will write *López *to please someone who thinks *Lopez *is offensive as most Americans would but otherwise, we don't care.


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## diegodbs

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> In the US, I see Gonzalez, Cristobal, Nuñez, Aguero. Pronunciation is neither here nor there. Most people pronounce these in an anglicized form anyway. My last name is Italian and almost nobody pronounces it correctly including people in the Dominican Repulic where my parents are from.
> 
> By the way, the same works for many last names that come from languages who have accent marks. I have yet to see an American spell his name "Kohler" for example. Even the faucet company eschews the diacritc mark. And I see *Desiree *more often then I see *Désirée*.
> 
> In a nutshell, names have spelling rules of their own. It's up to whoever writes them to write them as they wish and usually if somebody called "Andrés" insists on the mark it's written that way to please that person. If not, it's "Andres". My mother's last name has an accent but she does not care to write it and neither does anybody else.
> 
> We don't write them, in most cases, as they are written in their original languages just like we don't write Hussein in Arabic script or Chang using the Chinese symbol for it.
> 
> That's not the rule (I doubt there is one) but just the way things are done here.


But Andrés is a Spanish name, and accents don't depend on the personal likings of that person but on grammatical rules. You wouldn't write "habe" in English, but "have", or Jhohn instead of John.


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## belén

diegodbs said:
			
		

> But Andrés is a Spanish name, and accents don't depend on the personal likings of that person but on grammatical rules. You wouldn't write "habe" in English, but "have", or Jhohn instead of John.



Yes Diego but this Andrés person has to learn to live without an accent in his name when making business with foreigners, same way Belén has when living in the States  or as told, a Chinese has when moving to a Western country...


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## diegodbs

belen said:
			
		

> Yes Diego but this Andrés person has to learn to live without an accent in his name when making business with foreigners, same way Belén has when living in the States  or as told, a Chinese has when moving to a Western country...


I may understand what you say, but why do they use accents when writing French names? as in the examples I gave above?


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## Outsider

yercygo said:
			
		

> ok. So How do i asnwer:
> How do you spell Núñez?
> I mean, what *words* am i supposed to say ?


Here's my opinion:

A Spanish name is a Spanish name is a Spanish name. José Rodríguez Zapatero should not be changed into Jose Rodriguez Zapatero just because you're in another country.

*However...*

..if we're talking about names of immigrants, then that's a different matter. If they're living in the U.S. or another English speaking country, I think it's O.K. to anglicize their names, by disposing of diacritics, which aren't used in English. This includes the ñ, IMHO. (Consider _Montaña_  _Montana_.) For all practical linguistic purposes, their names have become English. 



			
				yercygo said:
			
		

> And how do they teach children to spell résumé or café?


You should probably teach them to write the words with the accents, even though they are often omitted in practice, except by purists.


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## Soy Yo

Good answers. In proper names that have been incorporated into the English language like Gonzalez, Martinez. Perez...and the aforementioned Kohler, I can see that these individuals either because they want to or out of practicality and/or frustration have decided to eschew them  (fancy word, huh?). And in general we accept that Americans spell and pronounce their names any way they want to. [So I have a kid whose name is pronounced "Jon" but we spell it...T-O-M. It's confusing and he may decide to change the spelling one of these days.)

There are people who have exotic accent marks on their first names. I guess it looks French.

It is interesting, though, that we accept the French accent marks in vocabulary and names much more readily than we do the Spanish ones. Wonder why?


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## Residente Calle 13

diegodbs said:
			
		

> But Andrés is a Spanish name, and accents don't depend on the personal likings of that person but on grammatical rules. You wouldn't write "habe" in English, but "have", or Jhohn instead of John.


If *Andrés Cantor* wrote his name *Andres Cantor*, that's how Americans would spell it. They also write *Andre *for what the French write as *André*. They don't know nor care about the accent mark. They don't know nor care about how accents or spelling works in other languages unless you point it out. How great or bad that might be is another issue altogether.

One of our presidents spelled his name "Eisenh*ow*er." it was his call. *W* in German makes the *V* sound in English. Nobody cares here because we are not German and besides nobody ever told us. If he had insisted on "Eisenhauer" that's how it would be spelled.


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## Outsider

Soy Yo said:
			
		

> It is interesting, though, that we accept the French accent marks in vocabulary and names much more readily than we do the Spanish ones. Wonder why?


It is interesting. My guess is that French has greater prestige than Spanish, and so people tend to be more careful about the spelling of French words (to the point of pedantry).

P.S. Actually, there may be another reason. Many of the French words which some people write with accent in English do not conform to the usual spelling of English. Without the accent, there might be a tendency to mispronounce them:

café (pronounced "cafey", in English), ca-FÉ; cafe  some might mispronounce as CAYF;

résumé (pronounced "resamay", in English) RE-su-may; resume  some might mispronounce as "resume", re-SU-me;

André  (pronounced "Andray", in English) an-DRAY; Andre  some might mispronounce as AN-dre (Though Andre Agassi spells his name without an accent...)


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## diegodbs

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> If *Andrés Cantor* wrote his name *Andres Cantor*, that's how Americans would spell it. They also write *Andre *for what the French write as *André*. They don't know nor care about the accent mark. They don't know nor care about how accents or spelling works in other languages unless you point it out. How great or bad that might be is another issue altogether.
> 
> One of our presidents spelled his name "Eisenh*ow*er." it was his call. *W* in German makes the *V* sound in English. Nobody cares here because we are not German and besides nobody ever told us. If he had insisted on "Eisenhauer" that's how it would be spelled.


I understand what you say and it's reasonable. But as Outsider said, there seems to be a tendency to use accents in words of French origin but not in Spanish names, is that so?


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## Soy Yo

diegodbs said:
			
		

> But Andrés is a Spanish name, and accents don't depend on the personal likings of that person but on grammatical rules. You wouldn't write "habe" in English, but "have", or Jhohn instead of John.


 
Diego, I guess it's partly the basic difference in English and Spanish approach to spelling in general. Spanish writes things exactly as pronounced (within reason) including placing accent marks according to pronunciation rules. In English, we learn "stress" some other way and don't need accent marks. An English speaker doesn't need the accent on Andres to pronounce it Andrés. He just "knows" which syllable is stressed...well, maybe he knows and maybe he doesn't  Eventually Andres is likely to evolve into Anders, first in pronunciation and then in spelling. 

I mentioned Martinez and Perez earlier. Pérez has passed into the language as peREZ. And I've also heard martin-EZ (instead of Martínez).

Nevertheless, I do agree with you that we tend to respect the French accent marks much more than the Spanish.  (But we sure do like our Freedom Fries.)


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## Residente Calle 13

Outsider said:
			
		

> It is interesting. My guess is that French has greater prestige than Spanish, and so people tend to be more careful about the spelling of French words (to the point of pedantry).



And ignorance (and I *don't *mean that in a bad way). My niece is Ne'Andrea. That's not a typo on my part; there's an *apostrophe *not an accent mark between the first *e* and the first *A*.

First of all, since she's a girl, in French she would be n*é*e. Second of all, I have never seen a name like that in French. And lastly, the last *e* would have an accent if there were one. But...that's how she spells her name. I wouldn't expect her parents how to spell in French. They're not French, they just wanted that name spelled that way. 

But how many Americans spell their last names *Dupré *?

I think this is what happens to foreign lastnames over time here in the States. But sometimes all it takes is a few days for *José López* to become *Jose Lopez*.


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## belén

I am so used of living without my accent after being abroad for some years that when I first registered in this forum, since the whole registration process was done in English, I automatically registered "belen", no accent..


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## Outsider

I have added a post script to my previous post with another idea, perhaps more logical. Please take a look. 
One thing that amuses me is how many Americans seem to think that the apostrophe has a sound of its own in languages such as French and Italian. For example, I've seen some Americans (who I must presume don't speak Italian) pronounce names like d'Amato as Dee-Amato! (It's pronounced Damato in Italian.) And then there's the whole thing with the pronunciation of apostrophes in _Star Trek_ names and the like.


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## Residente Calle 13

diegodbs said:
			
		

> I understand what you say and it's reasonable. But as Outsider said, there seems to be a tendency to use accents in words of French origin but not in Spanish names, is that so?



Well, you have to remember that French words came in through writing and original under Norman rule. Spanish names do not. They come in as the names of immigrants. But that's a little off-topic.

French words generally take accents even when the dictionary says you don't need them. Spanish last names have the spelling that people insist upon. Same goes for street signs. There was a street called "Manana" street in Texas and the local Spanish-speakers complained so they changed it to "Ma*ñ*ana Street." 

The state of *Montana *has like _three _Spanish speakers and English is the only official language (ironically their state seal says _Oro y Plata_) so nobody complains.

Does anybody know how to spell Scareface's original name in Spanish?


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## belén

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> Well, you have to remember that French words came in through writing and original under Norman rule. Spanish names do not. They come in as the names of immigrants. But that's a little off-topic.
> 
> French words generally take accents even when the dictionary says you don't need them. Spanish last names have the spelling that people insist upon. Same goes for street signs. There was a street called "Manana" street in Texas and the local Spanish-speakers complained so they changed it to "Ma*ñ*ana Street."
> 
> The state of *Montana *has like _three _Spanish speakers and English is the only official language (ironically their state seal says _Oro y Plata_) so nobody complains.
> 
> Does anybody know how to spell Scareface's original name in Spanish?




And there is a town in L.A. called "Calabassas!"


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## Residente Calle 13

Outsider said:
			
		

> It is interesting.
> P.S. Actually, there may be another reason. Many of the French words which some people write with accent in English do not conform to the usual spelling of English. Without the accent, there might be a tendency to mispronounce them:
> 
> café (pronounced "cafey", in English), ca-FÉ; cafe  some might mispronounce as CAYF;
> 
> résumé (pronounced "resamay", in English) RE-su-may; resume  some might mispronounce as "resume", re-SU-me;
> 
> André  (pronounced "Andray", in English) an-DRAY; Andre  some might mispronounce as AN-dre (Though Andre Agassiz spells his name without an accent...)



I don't think so. We already have "the produce aisle"  and "you have to produce results" and dozens of words like that. Besides, you will hear some Americans jokingly say "garbáge" to sound French so they do have some inkling that the French like to stress that last syllable.


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## LadyBlakeney

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> Does anybody know how to spell Scareface's original name in Spanish?



Antonio Montana (montana means "related to the mountain")
Antonio Montaña (montaña means "mountain")
Antoñito for his friends...


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## Residente Calle 13

belen said:
			
		

> And there is a town in L.A. called "Calabassas!"



I think the case of *Calabassas *might be like San *Ysidro* an old Spanish spelling. Remember, *paso *was once written *passo *in Spanish.

But that's just a guess!


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## Outsider

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> I don't think so. We already have "the produce aisle"  and "you have to produce results" and dozens of words like that. Besides, you will hear some Americans jokingly say "garbáge" to sound French so they do have some inkling that the French like to stress that last syllable.


Yes, but you don't have many polysyllabic oxytones ending in a vowel, in English (hope I haven't lost you, here ).


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## Residente Calle 13

Outsider said:
			
		

> Yes, but you don't have many polysyllabic oxytones ending in a vowel, in English (hope I haven't lost you, here ).



No, you don't. But I think most Americans know that *Paris *is pronounced *Parí *(or something like that anyway. I think we say DE-suh-ray instead of de-suh-RAY because we really don't think of it as French. Besides, maybe that's how stress worked in some of the dialects that brought that name here (who's to say it was Parisian?)


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## Outsider

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> No, you don't. But I think most Americans know that *Paris *is pronounced *Parí *(or something like that anyway.


Maybe, but in everyday language it seems that English speakers pronounce PA-ris, not pa-REE...



			
				Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> I think we say DE-suh-ray instead of de-suh-RAY because we really don't think of it as French. Besides, maybe that's how stress worked in some of the dialects that brought that name here (who's to say it was Parisian?)


Even de-suh-RAY would not be the proper pronunciation. You just can't win. Why not just call her "Desired"?


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## Residente Calle 13

Outsider said:
			
		

> Maybe, but in everyday language it seems that English speakers pronounce PA-ris, not pa-REE...
> 
> Even de-suh-RAY would not be the proper pronunciation. You just can't win. Why not just call her "Desired"?



What we end up doing here, Outsider, is saying names as close to what we can and spelling them however the person wants it spelled as long as it's in the Latin alphabet.

Your name in French is said something like oot-sigh-de*r* (with that voiced uvular fricative). Go figure!


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## Outsider

Oot-*see*-der, s'il vous plaît.


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## Soy Yo

En Tidewater Virginia, a menos que se vaya perdiendo el acento, Outsider sí se pronuncia Oot-*sigh*-dur.  "My mercy, there's little Ootsider again running aboot the hoose."


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## Outsider

Well, I mean, if it were a French word, it would be pronounced Oot-see-der...


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## Soy Yo

Outsider said:
			
		

> Well, I mean, if it were a French word, it would be pronounced Oot-see-der...


 
Sí, amigo forastero. Pero estaba pensando más en lo que ha dicho el Sr. Residente...y señalando que no es necesariamente "francés" la pronunciación que él ofrecía (oot-sigh-der)

De todas maneras, estoy contento con la pronunciación de tu nombre en mi propio dialecto...es decir "aut-*sai*-der"


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## fenixpollo

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> But I think most Americans know that *Paris *is pronounced *Parí *


I disagree. Many Americans think _Paris_ is a town in Texas. I think "most Americans" have only basic knowledge of their own spelling and grammar rules. Drive down any street in America and witness all of the sign's with incorrect usage of posessive apostrophe's and plural's. 





			
				RC13 said:
			
		

> One of our presidents spelled his name "Eisenh*ow*er." it was his call. *W* in German makes the *V* sound in English. Nobody cares here because we are not German and besides nobody ever told us.


 Exactly. Many Americans are ignorant about the pronunciation of non-English family names. When I say "ignorant", I'm not name-calling, I'm simply saying that people of any culture lack knowledge about foreign cultures. I, myself, am ignorant about the pronunciation of Swahili family names, for example, because I have little contact with Swahili culture. 





			
				Soy Yo said:
			
		

> There must be norms for writing accent marks on foreign names and words in English.


 No, there aren't. English doesn't have accents, so there are no rules for them. If they are foreign words, then they fall outside the rules of English spelling. Kind of intuitive, no? 





			
				yercygo said:
			
		

> So if my last name is "Núñez" and i were asked to spell my last name, how am I supposed to answer? *N-U-N-E-Z*
> What about Agüero? *A-G-U-E-R-O*


 At least Aguero is pronounced similarly in English as it is in Spanish. When you get to surnames like _Yáñez_ and _Coahuilas_, fuhgeddaboudit!


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## gotitadeleche

> Originally Posted by yercygo
> So if my last name is "Núñez" and i were asked to spell my last name, how am I supposed to answer? N-U-N-E-Z
> What about Agüero? A-G-U-E-R-O



Exactly, and Americans may pronounce it "Nunez," unless you correct them (that being a fairly common name, you have a chance that it will be pronounced correctly). Many foreign speakers get so tired of correcting the pronunciation that they just give in to it. I have a friend from Colombia whose last name is Tello. Over here everyone pronounces it Telo. Even he pronounces it that way; it isn't worth the trouble to explain it all the time.


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## Soy Yo

E imagínate el lío de los Ulloa...

Tengo un amigo con ese apellido...y cometí el error de escirbirles a mis padres su nombre.  Creo que si lo hubieran oído antes de verlo, habrían podido pronunciarlo...pero por fin todos nos rendimos.  Total, mis padres no intentan pronunciarlo.  Otro problema es que su nombre es Joaquín.


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## adremd

yercygo, spelling goes like so c-a-f-e, accent over the e.  

And as for resume, I think most people know it has an accent because it's pronounced differently than resume, like "class will resume on Monday." And we've seen cafe' so many times that we know it has an accent somewhere in there.

I don't think because a word is French or whatever people decided to include the accents.  We love Spanish words, diego!! LOL.  It's just that we don't know that they should have accents.  No pasa nada, tio.


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## cirrus

That seems such a good summing up.  I think e acute is viewed by some people as a letter in its own right and still appeals to people's urge to show off. Mind you I think the chances of seeing a grave accent are up there with flower pressing in a battlefield.  As for accents elsewhere eg on vowels, unless you write Spanish, most English speakers wouldn't have a clue.

The fuss involved in putting accents even into WR forums is considerable - go out into word, control ' letter or control shift ~n, copy then paste.


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## anothersmith

belen said:
			
		

> And there is a town in L.A. called "Calabassas!"



Actually, the official spelling is "Calabasas," and that is how I have always seen it spelled.  (I live in Los Angeles and have friends in Calabasas.)  The forum rules do not allow me to post the URL to the city's official website because I have not yet made 30 posts, but if you google "calabasas," the first result will be that website.

We are guilty, however, of horrible pronunciation when it comes to names of cities and suburbs.  "Los Angeles" is the first example that comes to mind, but there's also a suburb of Los Angeles called "Los Feliz," which everyone pronounces "Las Fílez."


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## belén

anothersmith said:
			
		

> Actually, the official spelling is "Calabasas," and that is how I have always seen it spelled.  (I live in Los Angeles and have friends in Calabasas.)  The forum rules do not allow me to post the URL to the city's official website because I have not yet made 30 posts, but if you google "calabasas," the first result will be that website.
> 
> We are guilty, however, of horrible pronunciation when it comes to names of cities and suburbs.  "Los Angeles" is the first example that comes to mind, but there's also a suburb of Los Angeles called "Los Feliz," which everyone pronounces "Las Fílez."



Oh, ok, I remembered it with two "s", sorry about that.. Nevertheless, the right spelling is "calaba*z*as".


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## Outsider

cirrus said:
			
		

> The fuss involved in putting accents even into WR forums is considerable - go out into word, control ' letter or control shift ~n, copy then paste.


Have you taken a look at this thread?


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## cirrus

Outsider said:
			
		

> Have you taken a look at this thread?


 
Yes but I use a laptop so those don't work for me. Since I installed word in Spanish I just hope the spell check will pick most them up for me.  I'd quite happily change the keyboard but it'd confuse my partner something awful.


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## Soy Yo

anothersmith said:
			
		

> Actually, the official spelling is "Calabasas," and that is how I have always seen it spelled. (I live in Los Angeles and have friends in Calabasas.) The forum rules do not allow me to post the URL to the city's official website because I have not yet made 30 posts, but if you google "calabasas," the first result will be that website.
> 
> We are guilty, however, of horrible pronunciation when it comes to names of cities and suburbs. "Los Angeles" is the first example that comes to mind, but there's also a suburb of Los Angeles called "Los Feliz," which everyone pronounces "Las Fílez."


 
Do you mean El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina de Los Angeles de Porciúncula?   For the most part, I don't mind the variations (mispronunciations) of place names that we find with the names given to our own town and cities. There's something about Versailles, Kentucky; New Madrid, Missouri; Punta Gorda, Florida; and Athens, Kentucky, that pulls your heartstrings.


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## cirrus

I remember driving in Texas and getting terribly confused by how what to me were obviously Spanish names were pronounced.  I was looking for a suburb of Dallas the locals called Plaino.  You wouldn't believe how many signs for Plano I went past!


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## fenixpollo

Good thing you didn't go to Llano, Texas (lah-no).


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## js3737

jajaja...Creo que aquí hay un divertido malentendido...creo que Yercygo no preguntaba como escribir "zúñiga" en idioma inglés, sino cómo tenía que denominar correctamente en inglés a los signos "ñ" o "ú" enfrente de su alumno de español. Es decir, su pregunta simplificada era, entre otras, ¿Cómo se dice el signo "ñ" en inglés? ¿"n with line"? ¿"n with tilde"?
Me ha transmitido su sensación de impotencia...nadie le ha entendido.


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## fenixpollo

yercygo said:
			
		

> ok. So How do i asnwer:  How do you spell Núñez?  I mean, what *words* am i supposed to say ?
> 
> And how do they teach children to spell résumé or café?


 Muy, muy buena observación, js3737, y bienvenid@ al foro. 

_Si suponemos que las personas que nos van a escuchar hablan inglés pero no hablan español y no tienen conociemiento de la ortografía española..._

*Zúñiga* = z - u, with an accent - enye, you know, the "n" with the squiggle over it - i - g - a
They would pronounce it /ZU-nee-g3/ 

*cigüeña* = c - i - g - u with two dots over it - e - enye, you know, the "n" with the squiggle over it - a
The only pronunciation difficulty would be to pronounce the last syllable like "enya".  They also would want to know why the "u with the two dots".  Some people might understand if you called it an _umlaut_ instead, but not all people.

You can completely ignore the letras castellanas and replace them with just plain "u" and "n"; or you can give a Spanish spelling lesson each time you spell your name.


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## sandzilg

If you really want to do it properly, you should call the letter by its name:

ñ = eñe
g = ge
ü = u con diéresis

Y así sucesivamente...


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## coro

fenixpollo said:
			
		

> *Zúñiga* = z - u, with an accent - enye, you know, *the "n" with the squiggle over it*


That's what I call it too , the "n" with the squiggle...
I wonder if there is a more technical word for it in English?
Is there also a word for the squiggle (rather than the letter) in Spanish? (other than "tilde").


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## anothersmith

As far as I know, in English we call it a tilde.


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## Outsider

ú: "u" with acute accent (or acute accent mark);
ñ: "n" with tilde (or tilded "n"?).


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## Jellby

coro said:
			
		

> Is there also a word for the squiggle (rather than the letter) in Spanish? (other than "tilde").



In Spanish, the "squiggle" is also called "virgulilla".


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## coro

Cheers, Jellby. Interesting word.


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## fenixpollo

Outsider said:
			
		

> ú: "u" with acute accent (or acute accent mark);
> ñ: "n" with tilde (or tilded "n"?).


 I don't think "tilded 'n' " would work.

The concept "acute accent (mark)" is so literally foreign that if you used it, people would say, "A _cute_ accent mark?  What does an _ugly_ accent mark look like?"


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## MarcB

* *
*There is a TV reporter named Geraldo. At first maybe 20  yrs ago I heard people called him Jeraldo, J as in judge, now everyone knows it is Geraldo,Spanish pronunciation. I know people with Portuguese names,*
*José and de Jesus most Americans pronounce them as Spanish not Portuguese. I once asked Marcos de Jesus why he introduced himself to someone usng the Spanish way and he said in English they say it that way lol. *


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## yercygo

js3737 said:
			
		

> ...cómo tenía que denominar correctamente en inglés a los signos "ñ" o "ú" enfrente de su alumno de español. Es decir, su pregunta simplificada era, entre otras, ¿Cómo se dice el signo "ñ" en inglés? ¿"n with line"? ¿"n with tilde"?


 
Thanks for your help, *js3737*. The real context is to teach Spanish speakers, English learners, to spell their last names (Zúñiga, Núñez) in English among native Spanish speakers.
So it's important not to drop the accents or the tildes.

Thank you all for your help.


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## Residente Calle 13

yercygo said:
			
		

> Thanks for your help, *js3737*. The real context is to teach Spanish speakers, English learners, to spell their last names (Zúñiga, Núñez) in English among native Spanish speakers.
> So it's important not to drop the accents or the tildes.
> 
> Thank you all for your help.



Is it? Isn't the title of the thread "How to spell Zúñiga in *English*?"?


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## yercygo

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> Is it? Isn't the title of the thread "How to spell Zúñiga in *English*?"?


 
It is in English, but among Spanish speakers who are learning English as a foreign language.


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## fenixpollo

yercygo said:
			
		

> The real context is to teach Spanish speakers, English learners, to spell their last names (Zúñiga, Núñez) in English among native Spanish speakers.


 That's a very confusing statement.  So, your native-Spanish student who is learning English goes into an establishment full of other native-Spanish-speakers, and he's going to spell is name in English?


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## yercygo

fenixpollo said:
			
		

> That's a very confusing statement. So, your native-Spanish student who is learning English goes into an establishment full of other native-Spanish-speakers, and he's going to spell is name in English?


 
Exactly, doesn't it happen in classrooms?

I teach English to native Spanish speakers in Peru, and sometimes they're supposed to spell their names. I don't think they have to drop the eñes, and accents only because they are learning English, and they ask for the complete spelling of their names--eñes, accents marks, and diaresis included. of course.

...
Student A: What's your last name?
Student B: It's Zúñiga. (pronounced with eñe and stress on the first syllable)
Student A: And how do you spell it?
Student B: Excuse me, teacher, how do you spell Zúñiga?


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## Residente Calle 13

yercygo said:
			
		

> It is in English, but among Spanish speakers who are learning English as a foreign language.



The answer is:

Spell your name however you feel like it.


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## The Worthy One

Zúñiga it's spell:

"z, u, ñ (eñe, not "n with tilde"), i, g, a, with accent in the u"

(In espanish = *z, u, ñ, i, g, a, con acento en la u*)

Cigüeña:

"c, i, g, u, e, ñ, a with diéresis in the u"

*(c, i, g, u, e, ñ, a, con diéresis en la u)*

Lingüístico:

"l, i, n, g, u, i, s, t, i, c, o, with diéresis in the u and accent in the second i"

(l, i, n, g, u, i, s, t, i, c, o, con diéresis en la u y acento en la segunda i)


You only need to *spell the letters*, and *after* that *write* (or say) *where the accents or diéresis are.*


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## MarcB

I am sure it is a normal exercise in a classroom. In English (classroom) I would spell the letters as in English and say the n has a tilde and the accents are known as acute accents (grave accent for other languages) and dieresis. All of these names exist in English but in a real life situation in an English speaking country you may have to explain them to a person unfamiliar with other languages.


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## Outsider

The Worthy One said:
			
		

> Zúñiga it's spell:
> 
> "z, u, ñ (eñe, not "n with tilde"), i, g, a, with accent in the u"


Yercygo wants to know the spelling _in English_, not in Spanish.



			
				fenixpollo said:
			
		

> That's a very confusing statement.  So, your native-Spanish student who is learning English goes into an establishment full of other native-Spanish-speakers, and he's going to spell is name in English?


No, but if the native-Spanish student travels to the U.S. and an American asks him (in English) how he spells his name, the student would like to know what to reply.



			
				fenixpollo said:
			
		

> The concept "acute accent (mark)" is so literally foreign that if you used it, people would say, "A _cute_ accent mark?  What does an _ugly_ accent mark look like?"


Well, Spanish names _are_ foreign to English speakers, aren't they?


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## Ollock

Do note that in a real situation, not all English speakers even know what a tilde or a diérisis actually is.  You might hear the tilde referred to as 'that squiggly mark'  or the diérisis reffered to as 'two dots' or 'umlaut' (German word for it), or by the English name for it, 'dierisis' /dai ER ih sihs/


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## Outsider

The Spanish student could always explain to the English speaker what 'acute accent', 'tilde' and 'dieresis' mean...


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## fenixpollo

Outsider said:
			
		

> The Spanish student could always explain to the English speaker what 'acute accent', 'tilde' and 'dieresis' mean...


If you have a name that in any way deviates from the Anglo-Saxon "norm" (ie John Smith or Jane Jones), you end up having to give the other person a spelling or history lesson anyway, so what's a grammar lesson on top of that?  No big deal to explain the double-dots/umlaut/dierisis (which, by the way, only people who are familiar with a Germanic or Romance language would know).


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## Jellby

By the way, it's the same when you have to spell a Scandinavian word with æ, å or ø in Spanish, yo have to say "a y e pegadas", "a con redondelito", "o tachada" or something similar, saying the Danish (for instance) names will not help at all.


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## Outsider

fenixpollo said:
			
		

> If you have a name that in any way deviates from the Anglo-Saxon "norm" (ie John Smith or Jane Jones), you end up having to give the other person a spelling or history lesson anyway, so what's a grammar lesson on top of that?  No big deal to explain the double-dots/umlaut/dierisis (which, by the way, only people who are familiar with a Germanic or Romance language would know).


I don't think you would need to give any spelling or history lessons. You can just scribble the little squiggly things things on a piece of paper, and _show_ the people what you mean.


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## anothersmith

Here in Los Angeles, many streets have Spanish names.   I have never seen a street sign for such a street that uses an accent mark, but I have seen one or two that use a tilde.

The use of accent marks for names and surnames is inconsistent.   For example, even the "Cesar E. Chavez Foundation" can't decide whether to use accent marks or not, as you can see from their homepage: 

http://chavezfoundation.org/


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## yuxtapuesta

I would say that it's nothing to do with prestige but rather to do with the long and highly intertwined history between France and England.  



> I write *resumé *and *café* because I'm a snob eager to show that I can write French.


Not too much of a snob.  *Résumé* has two accents.


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## fenixpollo

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> My dictionary says *cafe does not *have an accent. I write *resumé *and *café* because I'm a snob eager to show that I can write French.


 Your dictionary will also say that rèsumè *does* have two accents, so that people don't think you're writing _resume_.  Nothing snobbish about correct spelling.


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## Ollock

Basically what accents are put in are based upon who is writing and editing.  Newsweek is very good about putting in accent marks in their articles, but not everyone is.

As for names, my personal rule is that the correct spelling and pronunciation of a name should come from the person who *wears* that name.  For example, many English speakers would pronounce my middle name, Alston, as /AHL stun/,  but I and my family prefer the short 'a' found in the American pronunciations of 'cat', 'bat', and similar words.


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## fcarvall

yercygo said:


> I guess I'm more confused now.
> 
> So if my last name is "Núñez" and i were asked to spell my last name, how am I supposed to answer?
> What about Agüero?
> Or how am I supposed to spell résumé??
> 
> Thank you for your help!!!


 
You would just go: N-U-N-E-Z, with an accent in the U and "a squiggly line" over the N, as in "Jalapeño" (in the US everyone understands what the "N with the squiggly line" stands for. Most Americans know basic Spanish. Those that don't are either very old or not very smart, because the language is everywhere).

You don't know how to write it in an English keyboard? Just alt+' and then press the letter U. for the N with the squiggly line, alt+shift+~.

For the "U with the two dots" just alt+shift+:

Please don't tell the person "N with a tilde" 'cause they won't understand. It would be almost as if I told you the "U with the diaeresis."

Mr. Gates has made it very simple.


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## K-spar

I'm from San José, CA and until recently all the freeway signs just said "San Jose". But recently I was on an interstate and I saw an official highway sign that said "San José" with the accent. I have also seen official signs with ñ on them. I think the government is finally beginning to include these characters!

Anyways, you can definitely write the accent if you want. It shoudn't bother anyone, even if some people don't get it.

-roxana


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## Soy Yo

fcarvall said:


> Those that don't are either very old or not very smart, because the language is everywhere).
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know if you've been "everywhere" in the United States... but I rather doubt it.  Ignorance of Spanish is neither a sign of intelligence nor of age.
Click to expand...


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## fenixpollo

fcarvall said:


> (in the US everyone understands what the "N with the squiggly line" stands for. Most Americans know basic Spanish. Those that don't are either very old or not very smart, because the language is everywhere).


 Most Americans do NOT know basic Spanish. Foreign language is not a requirement in most schools, and if 25% of Americans knew basic Spanish, that number might be on the high side. No matter what your definition of "basic", I think that we might be able to agree that knowing the punctuation rules of one's second language would not be included in that definition. In other words, even those Americans who know that a Jalapeño is a "hot pepper" may not know that it's written with a squiggly line over the "n". And most of them would look at you like you were an alien if you said, "you know... the squiggly line!"


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## Nacheins

How to spell Zúñiga? How do you say that?

Is this guess correct? Z - U with an accent - N with a tilde - I - G -A

Please, English speakers, confirm.

(Zeta, U con tilde, Eñe, I, Ge, A)


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## obz

You spell it how you spell it in Spanish, but you cannot expect them to pronounce it correct.

If you don't care how it looks on paper, but that they say it (relatively) close to how it is pronounced, I would spell it;
_Sunyiga._


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## zumac

Regarding how to spell Zúñiga in English.

If your last name were Zúñiga, you can spell it anyway you wish. The issue is how will your name be registered on certain US documents.

Let's say that you were born in a Spanish-speaking country, and your birth certificate and other documents refer to Zúñiga.

You came into the US legally, and obtained a "green card" for Lawful Permanent Residency. Will your green card contain the correct spelling of Zúñiga? Or will they have truncated the diacritics?

In order to work, you applied for a Social Security Card and Number. Will  your Social Security Card contain the correct spelling of Zúñiga? Or will thay have truncated the diacritics?

You also needed a bank account and credit card. Will the US bank maintain the diacritics in the spelling of your last name?

After a few years, you decided to become a US citizen. Later you obtained a US passport. Again, will your password contain the correct spelling of Zúñiga, or will the diacritics be removed?

The entire issue is whether you have all your US documents with the correct spelling of your last name. I tried researching the subject of maintaining diacritics, but was not able to find any information from different US government agencies.

I suspect that some agencies and some banks, will truncate the diacritics. If the last names they assign do not match 100%, you now have a bigger problem.

Saludos.


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## Veraz

obz said:


> You spell it how you spell it in Spanish, but you cannot expect them to pronounce it correct.
> 
> If you don't care how it looks on paper, but that they say it (relatively) close to how it is pronounced, I would spell it;
> _Sunyiga._



Or "Thunyiga".


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## obz

Claro, depende en cecear o sesear. Su preferencia supongo, de verdad creo que lo más suerte se tendrá con la 's'.


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