# Punjabi and Hindi/Urdu: Cloudy



## teaboy

What is the most common way to express the concept of _cloudy_ or _cloudiness_.  I know baadal and abr mean clouds, but how would the weather report say "It will be cloudy today"?


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## Faylasoof

ابر آلود_ abr aaluud_ = cloudy


It’ll be cloudy today / Today it is going to be cloudy

Well, literally:

آج كا دن ابر آلود ہو گا
_aaj kaa din abr aaluud ho gaa_

But we also simply say:

آج  ابر آلود ہو گا
_aaj abr aaluud ho gaa_

There is also:

آج موسم ابر آلود ہے
_aaj mausam abr aaluud hai _
Today’s weather is cloudy

... and this,
آج ابر آلود ہے
_aaj abr aaluud hai _
It's cloudy today


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## teaboy

Thank you so much!


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## BP.

Allow me to wonder why we use the word _aaluud-آلود_- for this. Even if we take itsunusual meaning, it still means 'filled with' or something like that. What if the weathr's only slightly overcast?


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## teaboy

What about *دھند* ?  Does that become* دھندالود *? Is the *الود *related somehow to the word *الودگی *_pollution_?


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## panjabigator

Here's what we say in my house:

<aaj bādal chhaye hu'e hai.n>


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## Faylasoof

Slighty overcast? Then it is not really overcast and then we don't use this expression. For this we would just say:

آج ابر \ بادل ہیں
_aaj abr / baadal hai.n_

There are clouds today / We have clouds today.




teaboy said:


> What about دھند ? Does that become دھندالود ?


 
کُہر / کُہرا / دھند  
fog, mist, haze

دھندالود is also used. 



teaboy said:


> Is the الود related somehow to the word الودگی pollution?


 
Yes, but used differently. BTW, this usage of _aaluud_ آلود seems general.




panjabigator said:


> Here's what we say in my house:





panjabigator said:


> <aaj bādal chhaye hu'e hai.n>


 
We use this too! Usually, as:
آج ابر \ بادل  چھائے  ہیں
_aaj abr / bādal chhaaye hai.n_

One can also say:
سارے آسمان پر آج  بادل چھائے ہیں
_saare aasmaan par aaj baadal chhaaye hai.n_
آج سارے آسمان پر  بادل چھائے ہیں
aaj saare aasmaan par baadal chhaaye hai.n

We use _baadal_ بادل and _abr_ ابر with equal frequency.


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## panjabigator

How about <meghā>?


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## Subhash Kumar

panjabigator said:


> How about <meghā>?


 Megh is used in Hindi, perhaps derived from Sanskrit. I don't think Megh or Megha would be used by Urdu speaker.
But on the other hand, Sanskrit has another word "Abhra" अभ्र for cloud which is so close to Abr in Urdu (and Persian?).


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## panjabigator

Interesting.  What is it in Avestan?

Is <bādal> Persian?


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## BP.

teaboy said:


> What about *دھند* ?  Does that become* دھندالود *? Is the *الود *related somehow to the word *الودگی *_pollution_?


aaluud means 'mixed with' (corrolary:'tainted with'=polluted) as well as 'filled to brim with'.

Forgive the slight digression, but I've been hearing the word _d|hund_-دھند- quite a lot due to prevalent weather conditions, and this had me wondering people from what region and what dialect usually used this word for fog, since growing up I was used to saying _kuhr_-کہر. Just curious.


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## Faylasoof

BP,
دھند _dhund__ can mean fog / mist, though we always say _کُہرا _kohraa_. But _dhund__ also means these: _

دھند_dhund _= تاریکی _taariikii _(daytime) = تیرگی _tiirgii = _darkness, obscurity.
دھندلا _dhundlaa_ = تِیرہ و تار _tiirah o taar _= غیر شفاف _ghayr-e-shaffaaf _= غیر واضح _ghayr-e-waaDhiH _= مکدر _mukaddar_ = dim & dark, turbid, not clear. 

It is used all over northern India and I also heard it in Pakistan, including during currrent official broadcasts in Urdu from there. 

Because دھند _dhund __has such a general meaning, we can use it in many situations, e.g. a dust storm, though not necessarily for a cloudy day. Unless it gets very dark or it rains very hard, i. e. _مُوسلا دھار بارِش _muuslaa dhaar baarish_ = heavy downpour (= raining cat and dogs!), either of which would reduce visibility. We do say:
مُوسلا دھار بارِش کی وجہ سے دھند ہے
_muuslaa dhaar baarish kii wajah se dhund hai>_
There is poor visibility (دھند _dhund_) due to heavy downpour.

OR

گھنگول گھٹا سے چار سو دھند ہے
_g-hangol ghaTaa se chaar suu dhund hai_
_There is poor visibility_(دھند)_ all around due to heavy, dark clouds_ (گھنگول گھٹا).



Subhash Kumar said:


> Megh is used in Hindi, perhaps derived from Sanskrit. I don't think Megh or Megha would be used by Urdu speaker.
> But on the other hand, Sanskrit has another word "Abhra" अभ्र for cloud which is so close to Abr in Urdu (and Persian?).


 

*abr* of course is of Persian origin. In Avestan, it is different yet again! More like the Sanskrit Megh or Megha you mention. (See link below) 



panjabigator said:


> Interesting. What is it in Avestan?
> 
> Is <bādal> Persian?


 
*baadal* is Indic! From Sanskrit, as Platts says:
H بادلबादल _bādal_ [S. वार्दल, or वारिद], s.m. Cloud; sponge.

He also gives:
_bādal chhānā_ = To be overcast (the sky). We use this too, as discussed above.

Apart form this he also has:
_bādal pha__ṭ__nā_ / _phaTnaa_ = Clouds to disperse, to become clear (the sky).

We do use _phaTnaa_ but we also say: _baadal chha__T__naa__. _

_Also: _
_maTla3 Saaf ho jaanaa _مطلع صاف ہو جانا = Clearing of the clouds from the sky. 
_(__maTla3 _مطلع = _aasmaan / faDhaa_ فضا / آسمان = sky / space between the ground and the sky_)_

_Here__ is a good resource for Avestan and according to it <cloud = _maēγa_>. Looks like another Sanskrit cognate!_


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## panjabigator

Thanks FLS!

Anyone ever heard <badal vai> or something similar to this for "cloudy?"


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## teaboy

Does *میدان دید* also mean visibility?


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## BP.

^It should mean 'field of view/vision'.


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## Faylasoof

panjabigator said:


> Thanks FLS!
> 
> Anyone ever heard <bādal vai> or something similar to this for "cloudy?"



No! Which language would this be in?

 Any way, in Middle Persian (Pahlavi) for _cloud_ we have:
1  abr (the same in Modern Persian and Urdu) 
2  meg / myg = cloud, mist (same / similar to Sanskrit-Hindi)
3  snoy = rain, snow cloud.


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## panjabigator

Hmm, well my mother uses this for cloudy weather: badalvaī (no initial long a).  I checked my Punjabi dictionary and it says "moderately cloudy weather."  I guess it's not Hindi/Urdu?


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## Faylasoof

I see! So it may be restricted to Punjabi. Perhaps our PK punjabis may be aware of this but as you guessed it really isn't Urdu-Hindi; I mean KhaRii Boli!!


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## teaboy

I was looking at the BBC Urdu weather details, and they use *زیادہ سے زیادہ *for _maximum _temperature. There was no minimum temperature given. But how would that be expressed? -* کم سے کم* or *سب سے کم* 

*کم سے کم *means _at least_, which doesn't work in quite the same way as *زیادہ سے زیادہ *_at most._


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## lcfatima

I don't have my source book near to me now to confirm this, but I recall the word mezhna meaning cloud, I think in Farsi. Is this an ancient relative of meghna?


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## panjabigator

Icf, is this with the zh sound or a z and h?


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## lcfatima

I was thinking -zh- but then I remembered that some local UAE national females have the name Mezna, which means cloud, so it is probably Arabic. Sorry, I need to check my book. Maybe before I get a chance, Faylasoof will recognize the word.


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## Faylasoof

lcfatima said:


> I don't have my source book near to me now to confirm this, but I recall the word mezhna meaning cloud, I think in Farsi. Is this an ancient relative of meghna?


 Fatima,
As I mention above, both Avestan and Pahlavi (Middle Persian), so presumabley also Old Persian, have < maēγa / meg / myg > which have the Sanskrit cognate .




lcfatima said:


> I was thinking -zh- but then I remembered that some local UAE national females have the name Mezna, which means cloud, so it is probably Arabic. Sorry, I need to check my book. Maybe before I get a chance, Faylasoof will recognize the word.


 
In Classical Arabic (CA) there is no _zh_ ژ so it can't be from there. Dialects I'm not sure about. Also, in CA, the most common names for clouds are:  غيم \ غمام  \ سحاب etc. 

 I don’t remember _m*e*zna_ in CA, but there is _m*u*znah_ / _m*u*zn_ = rain cloud / part of a rain cloud. (BTW, _ibn m*u*nzah_ = new moon!)

In Urdu poetry we do use these, esp. سحاب , with the same meaning and while in the Quran both مُزن _m*u*zn_ and سَحاب _saHaab_ are used for clouds, we don't use مُزن _m*u*zn_ in either formal Urdu prose or poetry. 

Here  we had a discussion about the names of clouds in Arabic.


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## lcfatima

I checked in my book, it is Maznaah in Pahlavi as fog, mist, cloud

and Muzn/Muznah in Arabic meaning part of a cloud, rain cloud, vernal cloud as F mentions above.

Yes I know the -zh- doesn't exist in Classical Arabic, I was thinking that might have been in the Persian word, but I was mistaken.


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## panjabigator

*Moderator note:

This thread has been split into Hindi/Urdu: برفباری <barafbārī>. 

We discussed hail here:  Persian/Urdu: ژاله.


PG*


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## panjabigator

Reviving this thread to see if any Punjabiphones (Koozagar, Bashink, Qureshpor) can assist. Have you ever heard بدلوائ/ਬੱਦਲਵਾਈ in Punjabi?


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## Qureshpor

panjabigator said:


> Reviving this thread to see if any Punjabiphones (Koozagar, Bashink, Qureshpor) can assist. Have you ever heard بدلوائ/ਬੱਦਲਵਾਈ in Punjabi?



*PG Jii, before I attempt to answer your query...

You mentioned about "megh" for cloud. As Faylasoof Sahib has indicated, it is not all that common in Urdu. Whilst visiting our local library, I do remember coming across an Urdu book (novel/short stories?) entitled "Allah megh de". In Persian, there does exist the same word but with a Ghain..meGh.

Just as a side note. In my childhood, when we knew that everyone was praying for rain (farmers desperate for some water for their crops) and when we saw that the sky was getting rather cloudy and there was a possibility of some rain, we boys used to chant in the village lanes (wearing only one piece of clothing and "dance"!) "Mauliyaa Mauliyaa miiNh barsaa!" This could be translated as " Ai mere Maulaa, ai mere Maulaa meNh barsaa!" <Moderator edit. Snipped>

I have not (sorry to disappoint you!) come across baddalvaaii but I can offer a possible explanation. baddal is of course "cloud" and "vaaii" would be "wind". Could your dear mother be talking about "cloud[bearing]wind"?

One more word "jhaRii" (and jhaRii lagnaa) could be included in this discussion. And going on from this, in Punjabi, we do say..

aj jhaR (with a ch) paiyaa ve

Today, it is cloudy.*


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