# Раскрыт секрет!



## seitt

Greetings

Please could you help me with the grammar of “Раскрыт секрет!”? It's one of the ads on this site:
http://www.rutor.org/torrent/97609/bulat-okudzhava-5-albomov-mp3
Раскрыт секрет!Никому не говори, как зарабатывать 5000$ в месяц!

I always thought that if the adjective was before the noun it had to take the full form: Раскрытый секрет.

How would you translate it, please?

Best wishes, and many thanks,

Simon


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## NagyKiss

It means "The secret is revealed/exposed/disclosed". It is a perfective verb, means an action has happened already, i.e. the secret was finally revealed.
Infinitive - раскрывать
In this sentence it is also passive.


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## slavic_one

seitt said:


> I always thought that if the adjective was before the noun it had to take the full form: Раскрытый секрет.


It is definite form vs. undefinite (раскрыт).


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## rusita preciosa

slavic_one said:


> It is definite form vs. undefinite (раскрыт).


What do you mean by that?


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## slavic_one

Definite adjective раскритый vs. undefinite adjective раскрыт.
Секрет уже давно раскрыт. Этот раскритый секрет уже не интересен. Интересный секрет...


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## NagyKiss

What adjective? It is a verb, check my earlier post.


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## slavic_one

I wasn't refering to your post. You check my earlier post.


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## NagyKiss

Original poster mistakingly thinks *раскрыт* in his sentence is an adjective, you replied accordingly.

I am not a linguist or whatever. But I must say that I never heard of *раскрыт* being used as an adjective, because it is in fact a past tense of a verb *раскрывать*. Frankly I cannot think of a way to use it as an adjective.

And adjective in this case would be *раскрытый,* i.e. "раскрытый секрет" - a disclosed secret.


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## slavic_one

Past tense of the verb раскрывать is, if I am not wrong, раскрывал.


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## slavic_one

I wanted to point out that раскрытый is not "full form", but definite form.


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## NagyKiss

Раскрывал is past continuous. Раскрыт - *perfect* form, plus it is *passive* as I already noted.

 In this case the action is already finished - A secret was (by someone) disclosed.


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## slavic_one

Past tense of the verb раскрывать is раскрывал, and of the verb раскрыть is раскрыл.


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## NagyKiss

Correct and a passive form is раскрыт.


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## slavic_one

Action already took place, but that secret is still revealed. I can argue that it is a indefinite adjective. See my example with both forms.


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## Maroseika

slavic_one said:


> Definite adjective раскритый vs. undefinite adjective раскрыт.
> Секрет уже давно раскрыт. Этот раскритый секрет уже не интересен. Интересный секрет...



From the historical point of view you are right, as the full form of the adjective really has developed in Old Slavonic as the definite form of what we now call short form: добрый/добрая/доброе < dobri + ji/ja/je, where ji/ja/je were demonstrative pronoun of Masc., Fem. and Neutral genders.
But in Russian language adjectives do not have such a category as definitness. Раскрыт is the short form of раскрытый.


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## slavic_one

Maroseika said:


> From the historical point of view you are right, as the full form of the Old Slavonic adjective really has been developed as the definite form of what we now call short form: добрый/добрая/доброе < dobri + ji/ja/je, where ji/ja/je were demonstrative pronoun of Masc., Fem. and Neutral genders.
> But in Russian language adjectives do not have such a category as definitness. Раскрыт is the short form of раскрытый.


Thanks for the info! I really didn't know that you now call it short and full forms (короткые и долгие формы?). I remember that once I have a discussion about definite and indefinite ajdectives in Slavonic languages with a Russian collegue, and she was also using historical terms. Then I apologise to *seitt*.


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## NagyKiss

Maroseika,

if pаскрыт is the short form of раскрытый, do you mean that it is in fact an adjective in our case?


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## Maroseika

NagyKiss said:


> Maroseika,
> 
> if pаскрыт is the short form of раскрытый, do you mean that it is in fact an adjective in our case?



My bad, раскрытый and раскрыт in this case are participles, cf:

Книга, раскрытая учеником. (participle).
На столе лежит раскрытая книга. (adjective).


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## Maroseika

slavic_one said:


> Thanks for the info! I really didn't know that you now call it short and full forms (короткые и долгие формы?). I remember that once I have a discussion about definite and indefinite ajdectives in Slavonic languages with a Russian collegue, and she was also using historical terms. Then I apologise to *seitt*.



We call it краткие и полные формы. Is the category of definitness of adjectives still alive in Czech?


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## slavic_one

Maroseika said:


> My bad, раскрытый and раскрыт in this case are participles, cf:
> 
> Книга, раскрытая учеником. (participle).
> На столе лежит раскрытая книга. (adjective).



In your example it is, but in which ones too? Now I'm also a bit confused.


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## slavic_one

Maroseika said:


> We call it краткие и полные формы. Is the category of definitness of adjectives still alive in Czech?



In Czech they're not, they lost indefinite usage. Althou sometimes you can see and hear those forms (e.g. _udělán_), it is correct to use formerly definite forms (_udělaný_) for everything. In Croatian and Serbian there still are both forms and there are pretty much strict rules when to use one and when the other, but people are making mistakes with it very often.


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## Enquiring Mind

It may help the Anglophone OP seitt if I describe it as we English-speakers are taught it: the short form of the passive past participle of раскрыть.   I'm not sure that arguing about whether it is - grammatically speaking - an adjective or a participle is particularly helpful (or even necessary ).

The phrase pаскрыт секрет! means the secret has been revealed/disclosed/uncovered. It is a verb form describing an action that has been completed, not an adjective describing a characteristic. 

Pаскрытый секрет translates (as it stands, without further context) as "a disclosed/uncovered/revealed secret" (note indefinite article "a").   (Adjective, describing the state of the secret, what kind of secret it is)
Pаскрыт секрет! The secret is out! (_The best translation, by the way_). The secret is/has been revealed/disclosed/uncovered.  (An action has happened to the secret, something has been done to it.)

Short forms of past participles are still current in Czech too:
Pаскрытый секрет - odhalenе́ tajemství - a revealed secret
Pаскрыт секрет! - tajemství je odhaleno - the secret is/has been revealed.


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## slavic_one

Enquiring Mind said:


> The phrase pаскрыт секрет! means the secret has been revealed/disclosed/uncovered. It is a verb form describing an action that has been completed, not an adjective describing a characteristic.


It is not (a real question)? Какой секрет? Секрет - раскрыт. Is that incorrect?

Sometimes it's hard to describe some Slavic language feature with english terminology.


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## Enquiring Mind

slavic_one said:


> It is not (a real question)? Какой секрет? Секрет - раскрыт. Is that incorrect?
> Sometimes it's hard to describe some Slavic language feature with english terminology.




"Какой секрет? Секрет - раскрыт. Is that incorrect?" - Hmm, sounds odd to me after Какой, but I'm not a native Russian.
You're right about the English terminology; I'm describing it from an English speaker's point of view for seitt.)


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## Maroseika

slavic_one said:


> In your example it is, but in which ones too? Now I'm also a bit confused.



To distinguish between participles and verbal adjectives (which are usually homonymous or, what is much worse, have different suffix - н or нн) we have to check if the quality, described by the word, is temporary or permanent:

Книга, раскрытая учеником - participle (the book was closed, now it is open, so it's temporary).
На столе лежит раскрытая книга - adjective (we know only that it is open, so it's permanent).

Кривая, образованная циркулем, называется окружность (participle).
Образованые люди много читают (adjective). 

Эта девушка весьма воспитанна (adjective).
Девушка была воспитана в строгих правилах (participle).

Он открыт и сердечен (adjective).
Гелий открыт в 19 веке (participle).


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## slavic_one

From Russian Wiki (имя прилагательное): "*качественные* (отвечают на вопрос «какой?»)". To me it sounds normal.


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## slavic_one

Maroseika said:


> To distinguish between participles and verbal adjectives (which are usually homonymous or, what is much worse, have different suffix - н or нн) we have to check if the quality, described by the word, is temporary or permanent:
> 
> Книга, раскрытая учеником - participle (the book was closed, now it is open, so it's temporary).
> На столе лежит раскрытая книга - adjective (we know only that it is open, so it's permanent).
> 
> Кривая, образованная циркулем, называется окружность (participle).
> Образованые люди много читают (adjective).
> 
> Эта девушка весьма воспитанна (adjective).
> Девушка была воспитана в строгих правилах (participle).
> 
> Он открыт и сердечен (adjective).
> Гелий открыт в 19 веке (participle).



I'm ok with that. I wasn't sure weather you think that there are participles in my examples.


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## Maroseika

slavic_one said:


> It is not (a real question)? Какой секрет? Секрет - раскрыт. Is that incorrect?



Yes, this is incorrect. Раскрыт will be the short adjective in a construction similar to (just cannot think out any good example with раскрыт): 
Он стоял, опустошен и раздавлен, не в силах вымолвить ни слова.
And this is just more poetical or bookish form of: Он стоял, опустошенный и раздавленный, не в силах вымолвить ни слова.

In other words, short adjective always can be substituted with the full form without changing the sense. Let's try:
Какой секрет? Секрет раскрытый! Никому не говори, как мы наврем тебе про то, как зарабатывать 5000$ в месяц!

As you can see, this is far not what was meant in the original phrase.


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## slavic_one

In the case of that revealed secret, it seems to me that it is like with the book from your first example in last post. We only know that on that web site there is some revealed secret - so it's permanent. Do you think otherwise?


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## slavic_one

Maroseika said:


> Yes, this is incorrect. Раскрыт will be the short adjective in a construction similar to (just cannot think out any good example with раскрыт):
> Он стоял, опустошен и раздавлен, не в силах вымолвить ни слова.
> And this is just more poetical or bookish form of: Он стоял, опустошенный и раздавленный, не в силах вымолвить ни слова.
> 
> In other words, short adjective always can be substituted with the full form without changing the sense. Let's try:
> Какой секрет? Секрет раскрытый! Никому не говори, как мы наврем тебе про то, как зарабатывать 5000$ в месяц!
> 
> As you can see, this is far not what was meant in the original phrase.



Uf... Am too tired right now, I'll come back to it tomorrow. ( Thanks for the examples, I'll check them more carefully.

Nevertheless not only verbs can tell as какое что?, but also adjectives. That was my point in reply to *Enquiring Mind*'s post.


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## NagyKiss

Maroseika,

I do not understand how pаскрыт can be an adjective in our case. 
A secret was revealed by someone, right? So it was an action performed on "a secret" by some undefined person, and as Enquiring Mind stated earlier it should be translated - A secret has been revealed (literally).
It is an action, not a description of a state.


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## Ёж!

Maroseika said:


> To distinguish between participles and verbal adjectives (which are usually homonymous or, what is much worse, have different suffix - н or нн) we have to check if the quality, described by the word, is temporary or permanent:
> 
> Книга, раскрытая учеником - participle (the book was closed, now it is open, so it's temporary).
> На столе лежит раскрытая книга - adjective (we know only that it is open, so it's permanent).


If we stick to the normal meanings of the words "permanent" and "temporary", then both are temporary in this case: any book that is open can be closed. The difference must be that the participle is a _verbal_ adjective, and so it bears the properties of a verb with it: that is, the thing it describes doesn't just stand alone, but is involved in an action together with other things, and is being described in the context of them.


slavic_one said:


> It is not (a real question)? Какой секрет? Секрет - раскрыт. Is that incorrect?


This question does not make sense in the case of a participle. And if it was a "normal" short adjective (like "бела"), then the question to put would be "какова", not "какая".


NagyKiss said:


> Maroseika,
> 
> I do not understand how pаскрыт can be an adjective in our case.
> A secret was revealed by someone, right? So it was an action performed on "a secret" by some undefined person, and as Enquiring Mind stated earlier it should be translated - A secret has been revealed (literally).
> It is an action, not a description of a state.


Well, it is a participle, that is, a verbal adjective. It combines characteristics of both verbs and adjectives.


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## Maroseika

NagyKiss said:


> Maroseika,
> 
> I do not understand how pаскрыт can be an adjective in our case.
> A secret was revealed by someone, right? So it was an action performed on "a secret" by some undefined person, and as Enquiring Mind stated earlier it should be translated - A secret has been revealed (literally).
> It is an action, not a description of a state.


I also cannot imagine раскрыт as an adjective in the present case. But in other cases it can be: 
Дом стоит раскрыт и разграблен (= раскрытый и разграбленный).


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## Maroseika

Ёж! said:


> If we stick to the normal meanings of the words "permanent" and "temporary", then both are temporary in this case: any book that is open can be closed.


OK, this is also correct. And I think temporality must be considered here not literally, but as the 'instant' characteristic, refering to the changing condition, i.e. action. 



> The difference must be that the participle is a _verbal_ adjective, and so it bears the properties of a verb with it:
> ...Well, it is a participle, that is, a verbal adjective. It combines characteristics of both verbs and adjectives.


Is it that you mean verbal adjectives and participles are the same thing?


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## Ёж!

Maroseika said:


> OK, this is also correct. And I think temporality must be considered here not literally, but as the 'instant' characteristic, refering to the changing condition, i.e. action.


 The problem is I do not feel this "instantness of a change" when I just listen to the phrase. But I feel immediately that "раскрытая" is different in these two phrases. And what I can notice at once is that there is another "thing" attached to the condition of the book at the moment, namely the pupil.


> Is it that you mean verbal adjectives and participles are the same thing?


Grammatically, every participle is a verbal adjective. So I'd say yes. And I am not sure how to translate the Russian term "отглагольное прилагательное" into English since a "verbal adjective" is a grammatical class, and "отглагольное прилагательное" is a morphological one (an adjective that is derived from a verb), in a sentence _отглагольные прилагательные_ behave just like ane adjective should.


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## Maroseika

Ёж! said:


> Grammatically, every participle is a verbal adjective. So I'd say yes. And I am not sure how to translate the Russian term "отглагольное прилагательное" into English since a "verbal adjective" is a grammatical class, and "отглагольное прилагательное" is a morphological one (an adjective that is derived from a verb), in a sentence _отглагольные прилагательные_ behave just like ane adjective should.


So you see no diffrence between организованная толпа and толпа, организованая провокаторами or between проклятый преступник and проклятый богом преступник? It seems to me that grammatical difference is very clear, isn't it?


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## Ёж!

Maroseika said:


> So you see no diffrence between организованная толпа and толпа, организованая провокаторами or between проклятый преступник and проклятый богом преступник? It seems to me that grammatical difference is very clear, isn't it?


I see the difference, I didn't say I don't.  The second phrases have verbal adjectives (participles), the first ones have "отглагольные прилагательные". I am not the only one who calls participles "verbal adjectives", please see here, for example.


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## NagyKiss

Ёж! said:


> I didn't say I don't.


I think it's better to say "I never said I didn't".


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## Enquiring Mind

This adjective/participle nomenclature in English appears to be problematic for people learning the language, especially when grammatical concepts are well studied and often clearly defined in their own language and inculcated in them throughout the education system, as is the case with Russian.  I recall a few posts recently on the English-only forum when the same subject has been discussed, without any satisfactory conclusion.   
I think the important thing is to understand not what the verb form should be called, but what function it is performing in its particular linguistic context.     

NagyKiss makes a good point in #38 - "I never said I didn't" is the most idiomatic version that most native speakers would use conversationally, but Ёж!'s version is okay too. It's a slightly higher register - that's what I would say to my boss (if I had one ).   

_Having said_ (past participle active, I believe ) that, "I didn't say I don't" didn't grate/never (никак не) grated  on the ears when I read it.


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## Maroseika

Ёж! said:


> I see the difference, I didn't say I don't.  The second phrases have verbal adjectives (participles), the first ones have "отглагольные прилагательные". I am not the only one who calls participles "verbal adjectives", please see here, for example.


lK, so the problem is to find different English translations for глагольный (having the verbal characteristics) and отглагольный (derived from the verb). Translating the both as 'verbal' is really confusing, now I can see this too.
Maybe we can use 'verbal adjectives' for participles and 'adjectives, motivated by the verbs' for отглагольные прилагательные.

Anyway, I think now the difference between them is clear enough.


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## slavic_one

Ok when I left that day, I was thinking a bit in a tram and I think I got it how do you understand that phrase. You obviously got it good (some of you), but now I'm thinking about the classification in Russian (no questions yet).



Ёж! said:


> This question does not make sense in the case of a  participle. And if it was a "normal" short adjective (like "бела"), then  the question to put would be "какова", not "какая".


It wasn't ment to be a participle.



Maroseika said:


> I also cannot imagine раскрыт as an adjective in the present case. But in other cases it can be:
> Дом стоит раскрыт и разграблен (= раскрытый и разграбленный).


Дом стоит - it's present tense; раскрыт - gives us the answer to what question?



Ёж! said:


> Grammatically, every participle is a verbal adjective. So I'd say yes. And I am not sure how to translate the Russian term "отглагольное прилагательное" into English since a "verbal adjective" is a grammatical class, and "отглагольное прилагательное" is a morphological one (an adjective that is derived from a verb), in a sentence _отглагольные прилагательные_ behave just like ane adjective should.


Verbalised adjectives? Why not to use that term when we speak of grammar?

While we're at it... can someone tell me the difference between the transgressives and adverbial participles?


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## Maroseika

slavic_one said:


> Дом стоит - it's present tense; раскрыт - gives us the answer to what question?



Что сделано с секретом? Он раскрыт.




> While we're at it... can someone tell me the difference between the transgressives and adverbial participles?


As far as I understand from Wikipedia, this is more or less the same.

Usednuvši u okna, začala plakat.
Севши (усевшись) у окна, принялась плакать.

Děti, vidouce babičku, vyběhly ven
Дети, видючи бабушку, выбежали вон.


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## Ёж!

slavic_one said:


> Дом стоит - it's present tense; раскрыт - gives us the answer to what question?


Каков стоит дом? — Раскрыт и разграблен.


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## slavic_one

Ёж! said:


> Каков стоит дом? — Раскрыт и разграблен.


And is it not the adjective that answers to the question каков?



Maroseika said:


> Что сделано с секретом? Он раскрыт.


That's how I understand it afterwards, if it is participle.




			
				Maroseika said:
			
		

> As far as I understand from Wikipedia, this is more or less the same.
> 
> Usednuvši u okna, začala plakat.
> Севши (усевшись) у окна, принялась плакать.
> 
> Děti, vidouce babičku, vyběhly ven
> Дети, видючи бабушку, выбежали вон.



Seems to me, too.


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## Ёж!

slavic_one said:


> And is it not the adjective that answers to the question каков?


Yes indeed. "Каков" is a short adjective, and so is "раскрыт" in that sentence; I answer a short adjective with a short adjective. This is like in English where the word 'open', for example, can be used either as a verb or as an adjective, and have a different meaning in the latter case. The same words can be used differently when grammar is involved.


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## Maroseika

Ёж! said:


> Каков стоит дом? — Раскрыт и разграблен.



А зачем тут слово "стоит"? Если это краткое прилагательное, то: 
Дом раскрыт.
- Каков дом?
- Раскрыт.

Дом раскрытый.
- Какой дом?
- Раскрытый.

Если причастие:
Дом раскрыт.
- Что сделано с домом?
- Он раскрыт.


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## Ёж!

Согласен с вами, оно не нужно. Я поставил его во избежание путаницы, чтобы прямо указать именно на ваш пример; и кроме того, чтобы синтаксическое сходство между вопросом и ответом было яснее заметно, так оказалось проще удостовериться в правильности вопроса мне самому.


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