# tone sandhi of successive third tone syllables



## graysesame

How should multiple (greater than two) successive 3rd tones sound?
Is there any article talking about this topic in detail?
as an example,
請你給我把傘
(I feel that speech speed and syntactic structure affect the tones.)
老鼠
好老鼠
找好老鼠
你找好老鼠
只管甲乙丙
Any examples regardless of the meaning are welcomed.


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## SimonTsai

我 (2) 很 (3) 想 (2) 你 (3)。
請 (3) 給 (2) 我 (2) 五 (3) 盒 XL 的保 (2) 險 (3) 套。
美 (2) 美 (3) 發現，好 (3) 老 (2) 鼠 (3) 往 (2) 往 (3) 只 (2) 管 (3) 甲 (2) 乙 (2) 丙 (3)，壞老 (2) 鼠 (3) 甚麼都想要，最後甚麼都得不到。


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## T.D

I would go like  請3 你3 給5 我5 把5 傘 3


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## SimonTsai

發這則訊息其實沒甚麼，只是想 (3) 請 (2) 你 (3) 給 (2) 我 (3) 一個將功贖罪的機會。
給 (2) 我 (3) 站住！死 (2) 崽 (3) 子！我看你 (3) 往 (2) 哪兒 (2) 跑 (3)！


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## SuperXW

Mine:
請你給我把傘 232223 
If I want to stress "me", I may use 3 to 我.

老鼠
23
好老鼠
323
找好老鼠
2323
你找好老鼠
22323
只管甲乙丙
23223
It depends on how you divide the phrase. The last character of each section would be 3. Others are 2.


T.D said:


> I would go like  請3 你3 給5 我5 把5 傘 3


What's this?


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## T.D

SuperXW said:


> What's this?


I tried many times myself and found I would always pronounce 给我把 with a neutral tone, that's why I labelled them as 5. Maybe it is because of my southern accent, but I can never imagine myself pronouncing each character of a sentence so clearly, unless I am to teach the standard pronounciations.


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## Skatinginbc

請你給我把*傘* ==> main idea: 請給傘.  That is to say, 你, 我, and 把 can be easily inferred from the context and therefore are unstressed in natural or casual speech.

請你給我把傘 ==> syntactic boundary: 請你 | 給我 | 把傘.

Thus we have: 請2你flat3 | 給2我flat3 | 把flat2*傘 *full 3

If "5" is used to denote any reduced tone including the flattened 2nd  tone and the flattened 3rd tone, then we have: 請2你5給2我5把5傘3, which is getting closer to T.D.'s accent: 給5我5把5傘3  (see #3)


T.D said:


> I would always pronounce 给我把 with a neutral tone


I suspect you didn't really mean a "neutral tone" (輕聲).  I guess you meant a "reduced" or "flattened" tone (輕讀).


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## T.D

Skatinginbc said:


> I suspect you didn't really mean a "neutral tone" (輕聲).  I guess you meant a "reduced" or "flattened" tone (輕讀).


Well I shouldn't have been replying in this thread in the first place. I myself struggled with pronunciation as a kid and 30 years later people still say I have a very strong southern accent even I thought I had improved much T_T


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## YangMuye

graysesame said:


> 請你給我把傘


I would pronounce 請˧˥你˧˥給˧˥我˧˥把˧˥傘˨˩
or carefully 請˧˥你˨˩ . 給˧˥我˨˩ . 把˧˥傘˨˩



graysesame said:


> 老˧˥鼠˨˩
> 好˨˩老˧˥鼠˨˩
> 找˧˥好˨˩老˧˥鼠˨˩
> 你找˧˥好˨˩老˧˥鼠˨˩
> 只˧˥管˨˩甲˧˥乙˧˥丙˨˩



I have to admit that those sentences do not flow well and that may affect my judgement.


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## graysesame

Thank you all. 
I think it is complicated to a degree that someone can compose a thesis on it.


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## Skatinginbc

I don't think it is complicated at all.  All the answers given so far are in agreement, not disagreement as you might think.  The rule is very simple:
Step 1. Identify syntactic units in a long string of successive 3rd-tone utterance.
Step 2. Within each unit, only the final morpheme is pronounced with the 3rd tone and the rest would all undergo tone sandhi and change into the second tone.

That's it.  That simple.

For example, 
A: 請2你2給2我2把2傘3 (fast, casual speech, treating "請你給我把傘" as a single unit).
B:  什麼?
A: 請2你3 | 給2我2把2傘3 (normal speed, separating the utterance into two).
B: 你說什麼? 我還是沒聽清楚.
A: 請2你3 | 給2我3 | 把2傘3 (enunciation or emphasis, further separating the utterance).

As demonstrated in the above example, multiple possibilities can come from one individual.


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## SimonTsai

*(a)* 我 (3) 很 (2) 想 (3) 海 (2) 扁 (2) 你 (3) 一頓，你的臉上簡直就寫著「欠揍」兩個大字；你要不是他的人，我今晚鐵定讓你被抬著出去。

@Skatinginbc has made an observation that is generally true and good enough, really. Let's try having the sentence above broken down following the procedure that he proposed. First, identify the syntactic units, which in this case are '我', '很想', and '海扁你', which are the subject, main verb, and object, respectively. Taking the second step, which is the final one, we pronounce the last character within each unit with its default tone, and the others with the second instead of the third. After all of this, we have sentence *(a)*.​
*(b)* 我 (2) 很 (3) 想 (2) 你 (3)。這些天你不在，家裏空蕩蕩的，只有時鐘滴答滴答地響。

Recall that I have described @Skatinginbc's proposal as a general and not a universal rule. Why? If we were to follow the procedure that we went through previously, we would end up with the units '我' and '很想你', which are the subject and predicate, respectively; accordingly we would pronounce '我' and '你' with the third tone and the others with the second; however, that would sound stilted.​


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## SuperXW

> Recall that I have described @Skatinginbc's proposal as a general and not a universal rule. Why? If we were to follow the procedure that we went through previously, we would end up with the units '我' and '很想你', which are the subject and predicate, respectively; accordingly we would pronounce '我' and '你' with the third tone and the others with the second; however, that would sound stilted.​


I totally agree with skatinginbc, and I believe his general rule is generally applicable.
And I believe my guides works well too.
When you want to stress a word, you would pronounce its last character more carefully, making it a full 3rd tone in our examples.
In 我很想你, "very" is usually the stressed word, thus 2323. However, in some context, when "I" is stressed, 3223 is totally natural.


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## SimonTsai

SuperXW said:


> However, in some context, [...] 3223 is totally natural.


Could you please give me a real-life example?


> "very" is usually the stressed word


@Skatinginbc's rule in post #11 has nothing to do with stress but has very much to do with syntax, which is the way in which a sentence is formed. Grammatically speaking, '很' must go with a verb such as '想' or '討厭', or an adjective such as '醜' or '小氣': '我 (3) 很 (2) 想 (3) 洗 (2) 澡 (3)' and '我 (3) 很 (2) 醜 (3)'.

A possible solution is to add a preliminary step, to identify the main idea first. For example, the main idea of '我 (2) 很 (3) 想 (2) 你 (3)' is '想你', so we determine how '想你' is pronounced and then determine the pronunciation of '我很'.


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## Skatinginbc

A: 你說有人想我, 誰?
B: 說來你可能不信: 我*3* (essential, not inferable from the context) 很*2*想2你3, 雖然平日常跟你吵嘴, 幾天沒見，覺得身邊少了什麼似的 ==> main idea: *我*想你
Syntax: subject 我*3* (essential, full 3) + predicate 很*2*想2你3

A: 你3想我嗎?
B: 當然!  我*2* (non-essential, i.e., inferable from the context and therefore omittable) 很*3*想2你3, 嘔吐時想, 夢魘時想, 罵人祖宗八代時心裡想的也是你. ==> main idea: *很*想你
Syntax: subject 我*3* (standalone, non-essential, flat3) + modifier 很*3* (essential, full3) + VP 想2你3 --> standalone *non-essential unit collapsing (to eliminate consecutive 3rd tones): *我*2*很*3* | 想2你3


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## SuperXW

SimonTsai said:


> Could you please give me a real-life example?


台湾国语口音和以北京话为代表的普通话口音有所不同，明显体现在音调上。我可以讲得natural的，也许在台湾国语口音中就不natural……
北京口音特点是较随意，几乎每一个字都可以单独强调，方法是将单字起调和终调在原有基础上再度升高或降低，其它字的起调终调差异缩小，甚至处理成接近轻声。
由于三声句非常特殊，强调方法只有并非一种。强调“我”的方法，常见方法是把“我”的终调提高，“很想你”用323，另外一种就是我说的3223。
这个没有对错，只关乎口音风格……
*比如，我可以用3223把这句读得很自然：“你没明白，不是他很想她，而是我很想你（3223）。 ”*

P.S 英文水平跟不上，我用中文说了。你们写的比较复杂的英文答复我没有看全，见谅。


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## SimonTsai

SuperXW said:


> 你没明白，不是他很想她，而是我很想你 (3223)。


Thanks for the example. I wouldn't have thought of it myself.


Skatinginbc said:


> A: 你說有人想我, 誰?
> B: 說來你可能不信: *我**3* (essential, not inferable from the context) *很**2*想2你3.


Thank you as well. I have no objection to this. (But personally, I am still more inclined to say, '*我**3*, *我2**很3*想2你3.')


SimonTsai said:


> so we determine how '想你' is pronounced and then determine the pronunciation of '我很'.


My theory in post #14 obviously needs modifications. Let me try again:

--> *我3* + {很3 + {*想3* + *你3*}}。 (你 ≥ 想)
--> *我3* + {很3 + {*想2* + *你3*}}。 (很 < 我)
--> *我3* + {很2 + {*想2* + *你3*}}。

--> 我3 + {*很3* + {*想3* + *你3*}}。 (你 ≥ 想)
--> 我3 + {*很3* + {*想2* + *你3*}}。 (很 ≥ 我)
--> 我2 + {*很3* + {*想2* + *你3*}}。

--> {*好3* + 老3 *鼠3*} + {*只3* + {*管3 *+ *甲3* *乙3* *丙3*}}。(丙 ≥ 乙 ≥ 甲)
--> {*好3* + 老3 *鼠3*} + {*只3* + {*管3 *+ *甲2* *乙2* *丙3*}}。(管 ≥ 只)
--> {*好3* + 老3 *鼠3*} + {*只2* + {*管3 *+ *甲2* *乙2* *丙3*}}。(鼠 ≥ 老)
--> {*好3* + 老2 *鼠3*} + {*只2* + {*管3 *+ *甲2* *乙2* *丙3*}}。

--> 我 + {請3 + 你3 + {*給3* + *我3* + *五3* *百3*}}。 (百 ≥ 五)
--> 我 + {請3 + 你3 + {*給3* +  *我3* + *五2* *百3*}}。 (我 ≥ 給)
--> 我 + {請2 + 你3 + {*給2* + *我3* + *五2* *百3*}}。 (你 ≥ 請)
--> 我 + {請2 + 你3 + {*給2* + *我3* + *五2* *百3*}}。

--> *我3* + {很3 + {*想3* + {海3 + {*扁3* + *你3*}}}}。 (你 ≥ 扁)
--> *我3* + {很3 + {*想3* + {海3 + {*扁2* + *你3*}}}}。 (海 < 想)
--> *我3* + {很3 + {*想3* + {海3 + {*扁2* + *你3*}}}}。 (想 ≥ 很)
--> *我3* + {很2 + {*想3* + {海2 + {*扁2* + *你3*}}}}。

*EDIT:* I looked up the academic definition of a verb phrase on Wikipaedia and found that I was again in the minority: I tended to define a verb phrase as one that excludes such elements as objects and complements. This is evidenced by post #12, where you will see me considering the adverb '很' to modify the verb '想' only, instead of the entire phrase '想海扁你'. It is perfectly possible to define it so and make the rules, but I found that in this case, following what most people are used to would make it much easier, so I edited my post and now am with the majority.


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