# 优秀的设计及特点令到支架在有限的空间仍容易安装



## TheUnitedStatesOfEurope

Hello everyone! 


I am trying to translate the following:

优秀的设计及特点令到支架在有限的空间仍容易安装。

However, I have difficulties to understand: "及特点*令到*支架", especially the part in bold: "*令到*". 


Thanks a lot in advance! 
Cheers,


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## rspcaf

“令到” is probably more of a TW style expression, meaning "cause, result in or allow".


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## TheUnitedStatesOfEurope

Oh ok! 

Thanks a lot!


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## SuperXW

I don't know Taiwan, but 令到 is habitually used in Hong Kong.
Think 令 as a verb ("cause"). [Verb+到] often stresses the result of the action, such as 看到, 得到, 找到, etc. 
The meaning of 令到 remains the same with 令.


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## TheUnitedStatesOfEurope

Excellent! 

Thanks a lot!


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## Skatinginbc

I have trouble understanding the whole sentence.  Is it trying to say 優秀特殊的设计使這种支架縱然在有限的空间下仍俱安装便利的優點?


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## TheUnitedStatesOfEurope

Yes, Skatinginbc, it means this: "The excellent design of the device can be installed even in small places."

However, I don´t understand the construction: "仍俱安装便利的優點". 

I have a question too...

What would be the equivalent of 令到 in Mandarin? 
This sentence will mostly be read by mainlanders, so it needs to be understandable.

And more importanlty, how will the sentence look like in Mandarin, if we replace 令到 by a Mandarin equivalent?


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## StargazerT3

Skatinginbc said:


> I have trouble understanding the whole sentence.  Is it trying to say 優秀特殊的设计使這种支架縱然在有限的空间下仍俱安装便利的優點?


#6,

Yep, you've got it. But your expression is not idiomatic enough. The "縱然" (Even) should be omitted, or otherwise you should start a new sentence with it. Since it can not be used with 仍 in series.

#1,

I'm form the mainland, and I'm not familiar with 令到. It seems a grammar mistake to me. But according to #2 and #4, let's just regard it as 令.

Okay. So how do we translate it?

优秀的设计及特点  令  支架  在有限的空间  仍容易安装

Convert it! So it could be more idiomatic in English. Use "Even" rather than "Still",  "Feature" is the result of "Design" thus there is no reason to state it again.

縱然在有限的空间  支架  优秀的设计  令 it  容易安装

Here's my try:

*Even in a limited space, the excellent design of the support made it easy to be installed.*

It is always suggested that DO NOT translate Chinese into English while keeping its original word order or expression IF you do not feel comfortable. Rebuild it to fit the speaking habit of English. And do the same if you were to translate English into Chinese.


TheUnitedStatesOfEurope said:


> What would be the equivalent of 令到 in Mandarin?  This sentence will mostly be read by mainlanders, so it needs to be understandable.


If the potential readers of this ad are mainlanders, then the sentence should probably be:

*这个支架优秀的设计使其具备极佳的适应性，即使在有限的空间内也极易被安装。*

literally: The excellent design of this support provides it with great adaptability, (thus it) could be easily installed even in a limited space.

*Edit*
Or you might want to stay with the original one and make a minor change:
优秀的设计及特点令支架在有限的空间仍容易安装

It is understandable in this way.


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## Skatinginbc

TheUnitedStatesOfEurope said:


> However, I don´t understand the construction: "仍俱安装便利的優點".


It was meant to check if the 特点 "feature" in your "优秀的设计及特点" actually means "安装便利的這個優點" (the advantage/feature of easy installation). 仍具 = 仍然具備 "still possess"


StargazerT3 said:


> The "縱然" (Even) should be omitted, or otherwise you should start a new sentence with it. Since it can not be used with 仍 in series.


縱然 cannot go with 仍? It has to be in the sentence initial position?  Well, 《梁實秋文集》收受之后縱然送還，仍有受賄之嫌.


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## StargazerT3

^No I don't mean it has to be in the initial position, it was a suggestion.

I apologize, in advance, for any unpleasant experience it might invoke reading my clarification:

I'm not even sure what speaking context are we talking about. Yes, it's good that you know a lot about 民国文学, but notice that these materials are a bit outdated. Please do not take it personally: The majority of Chinese people today do not speak in a 民国-fashion, and some proper expressions of the 民国 period could have became improper today. No language is immutable.

As for the sentence "收受之后縱然送還，仍有受賄之嫌", it is indeed perceivable, and it might be written by a illustrious 民国 scholar, but it sounds like a 学究(pedant).

For "纵然(即使)--- 仍(依然)---", I don't believe that they are incompatible. For example, one could say "即使已经试过好几次，我依然无法做出这道题", but it sounds relatively formal. The problem with the sentence "優秀特殊的设计使這种支架縱然在有限的空间下仍俱安装便利的優點" is that... no (mainland) native speaker today will ever express it this way. I can not agree using "纵然" in the middle of the sentence. It sounds like you have installed one complete sentence into another one in an unreasonable way.

In fact, "纵然" sounds pretty old-fashioned, and people today prefer "虽然/即使" to it.

I noticed that you were writing in traditional characters, so I suppose you've learned Chinese in a Hong kong/Taiwan fashion, right? If your sentence above was idiomatic in your hometown, then please let me take back all of my criticism. It might be just a difference in regional speaking traditions.

But I have to maintain that the vast majority of contemporary Chinese speakers do not use that expression in their daily life.

*If people ask you the validity of an expression in English, they mean it by Modern English, and they clearly do not care about anything concerning the Medieval English. 

And this is exactly the reason why I judge your sentence not idiomatic enough.*

Hope you could understand.


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## fyl

I didn't notice any oddity when reading Skatinginbc's suggestion before reading Stargazer's opinion. Well, maybe 纵然 is a little bit old-fashioned or 文艺腔, I kind of agree, though not very sure.
Why do we have to suggest longer and longer sentences?... I would just use short and simple sentences to ease the readers, e.g. 支架设计优良，在狭小空间仍可安装.


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## Skatinginbc

My sentence was not a suggestion.  It was meant to confirm the meaning of the OP's sentence and therefore its sentence structure largely followed that of the original sentence and it sacrificed economic principles for clarity.  By claiming that I didn't understand the OP's sentence, I indirectly answered the hypothesis in #2 that “令到” is probably more of a TW style expression.  No, it is not.  Even a person like me who grew up in Taiwan could not understand it at all.

The original poster asked about the meaning of "*令到*", and so of course I didn't expect him/her to answer my post.  In fact, my post was addressed to those who know the meaning of "*令到*" (e.g., SuperXW).  That is to say, I was writing to a native Chinese speaker.


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## StargazerT3

^Oh no, I mean that [The "縱然" (Even) should be omitted, or otherwise you should start a new sentence with it. Since it can not be used with 仍 in series] (in #8) was my suggestion concerning how to re-structure the sentence. I was not stating an unimpeachable grammar rule, but was just expressing my intuitions.

Okay, so you were trying to make a confirmation. At first I though you were trying to deliberately make the sentence sounds old-fashioned. In #8 my opinion was that your sentence of confirmation sounds pretty weird in a mainlander's perspective, but I shall/will never doubt its validity in TW.

Since the OP added that the sentence "will mostly be read by mainlanders" (in #7), I suppose we should probably stay with the speaking habits of mainland, instead that of TW. That has being said, I trust your expertise on issues concerning TW-variety Chinese.


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## Skatinginbc

The original poster confuses me.  Post #1 says "I am trying to translate the following: 优秀的设计及特点令到支架在有限的空间仍容易安装。"  I presumed he/she wanted to have it translated into English.  And then Post #7 says "this sentence will mostly be read by mainlanders" as if all of a sudden the purpose of this thread was to have it rewritten in Mainland Mandarin.

What exactly does the OP want?  Does he/she want to know if 优秀的设计及特点令到支架在有限的空间仍容易安装 is a good translation of "The superior design and features make mounting in tight space easy and hassle free"?  It is not a good translation.  In fact, they do not mean the same.  The "mounting" (i.e., the action of mounting something) in the English sentence should not have been translated as 支架 (i.e., a frame or support for something).

My "confirmation question" actually has not been fully confirmed.  Let me spell out my confusion: 
1. Is 支架 any 支架 or a specific type of 支架 (therefore I spelled out "這种支架") or not 支架 at all?
2. Is 仍 necessary (therefore I used a marked structure 縱然...仍 to highlight it)?
3. Is 容易安装 meant to be a verb phrase or an adjectival (therefore I purposely wrote 安装便利, an adjectival)? If 令到 = 使 and structurally parallels 看到, I would expect an adjectival (e.g., 使他開心, 看到他開心) like English "make it easy and hassle free". 
4. Is 特点 necessary (therefore I wrote 優秀特殊的设计)?


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