# Ukrainian/Russian: influences from French (and Dutch and...)?



## ThomasK

While trying to help an Ukrainian family I pick up some Ukrainian/Russian words. I had already heard the word /ferm/ for 'farm', which will be a *French *loan word, I guess (has been borrowed from French/...). Now when counting, I noticed /*dva*/ and /*tri*/, which are very recognizable but probaby simply Indo-European, but then /*chotyry*/ reminded me of French quatre. 

There have been Dutch influences on marine language in Russian, I believe, due to Peter the Great's contacts, if I am not mistaken. 

The background is partly didactic: some links with English especially might help her to learn Dutch.


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## Yendred

Russian четыре, Ukrainian чотири and French _quatre_ are cognates, but they are not borrowed one from the other.
They all come from Indo-European _kʷetwóres_, which has also given Latin_ quatuor._


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## ThomasK

But then: _ferm _is a borrowing, isn't it?


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## Yendred

Ukrainian/Russian ферма is indeed borrowed from French _ferme_.
A clue is the letter "ф", which at least in Russian, is typical of foreign borrowings.


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## ThomasK

Ha, really? Very interesting!!! Are there other French words that have been borrowed?


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## Yendred

ThomasK said:


> Are there other French words that have been borrowed?


There are a lot, but the opposite is also true. French _bistrot_ (_café_) is said to come from Russian бы́стро (_fast_).


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## ThomasK

I can imagine the latter: I suppose it holds for (fashionable) new things like computers, etc. But may I ask for five common borrowings from French? Thanks a lot in advance!


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## Awwal12

ThomasK said:


> I had already heard the word /ferm/ for 'farm',


Except it's férma, with ferm- being the stem (also "ferm" is "of farms", i.e. the genitive plural form). One probably should note that it has a slightly more specific set of meanings than English "farm", though.


Yendred said:


> A clue is the letter "ф", which at least in Russian, is typical of foreign borrowings.


In Slavic languages in general (proto-Slavic lacked /f/). Borrowings or late onomatopoeias.


ThomasK said:


> There have been Dutch influences on marine language in Russian, I believe, due to Peter the Great's contacts, if I am not mistaken.


Sure thing. Russian naval terminology is predominantly Dutch (though there are some English, Low German, Norse and Byzantine Greek loans as well).


ThomasK said:


> Are there other French words that have been borrowed?


As Yendred said, tons of them - after all, for the Russian nobility of the early 19th century French often was the first language. Though loans from German are well comparable in number - since the 18th century the linguistic contacts between Russian and German acquired a totally new magnitude, with numerous experts invited from Geman-speaking countries, many new German subjects in the modern day Baltic states and even a couple of Russian monarchs for whom German was the first language. Ethnic Germans even colonized some fertile areas along the Middle Volga, and had a pretty large community in St. Petersburg.


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## Yendred

ThomasK said:


> may I ask for five common borrowings from French?


Here are some Russian borrowings from French (among many others):
aвангард, from _avant-garde _
адрес, from _adresse_
aктёр, from _acteur_
кальсоны, from _caleçon (boxer shorts)_
картон, from _carton (cardboard, cardboard box_)
киоск, from _kiosque (kiosk, bandstand)_
комод, from _commode _(_chest of drawers, commode_)
контроль, from _contrôle_
кошмар, from _cauchemar _(_nightmare_)
кюре_, _from _curé _(_Catholic priest_)
театр, from _théâtre_
etc.


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## Awwal12

Yendred said:


> Here are some Russian borrowings from French (among many others):


I'd also add such everyday things as пальто (~overcoat, from _paletot_), шофёр (a professional car driver, from _chauffeur_), костюм (a formal suit; costume), кафе (café), метро (subway, from _métro_) and тротуар (pavement/sidewalk, from _trottoir_).


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## Yendred

Awwal12 said:


> пальто (~overcoat, from _paletot_)



_Je m’en allais, les poings dans mes poches crevées;
Mon *paletot *aussi devenait idéal._
(_Ma Bohème_, Arthur Rimbaud)


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## ThomasK

Awwal12 said:


> Except it's férma, with ferm- being the stem (also "ferm" is "of farms", i.e. the genitive plural form). One probably should note that it has a slightly more specific set of meanings than English "farm", though.


I am sorry, but I had just heard the word (used by both a Russian and an Ukrainian) and was so surprised by the root that I forgot about the rest!


Awwal12 said:


> As Yendred said, tons of them - after all, for the Russian nobility of the early 19th century French often was the first language. Though loans from German are well comparable in number - since the 18th century the linguistic contacts between Russian and German acquired a totally new magnitude, with numerous experts invited from Geman-speaking countries, many new German subjects in the modern day Baltic states and even a couple of Russian monarchs for whom German was the first language. Ethnic Germans even colonized some fertile areas along the Middle Volga, and had a pretty large community in St. Petersburg.


_*[I must apologize, but below I am reacting to message #8 and had not seen the very concrete examples in messages #9-11]*_

Thanks for the background information! --- In the meantime I was able to find some excellent examples of French words in Russian, like _eau de Cologne, apporte, ballet, pommade, chauffeur_. But then I found a list of about 400 words. I suppose you could say they were trendy words at that time, referring to trendy things in French culture/ civilisation (?) then...

Found some German words in the meantime too. Things like _Butterbrot, Strafe, Wunderkind, Zeitnot (!!!), Spion, ... _Less concrete it seems to me, though _Kartoffel _and _Butterbrot _turn up as well._.. _


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## Yendred

ThomasK said:


> examples of French words in Russian, like _eau de Cologne_


Oh yes, I had forgotten about that colorful одеколон 
Note that in French, _eau de Cologne _(literally: _Cologne water_) is named after the German city of Cologne (_Köln _in German).


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## Yendred

ThomasK said:


> a list of about 400 words


Well, that list is not really a list of Russian words borrowed from French, but Russian words that are pronounced the same as their French equivalent, so they are more often cognates from a common origin.


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## ThomasK

Aaarrrhhh, I suppose you're right. Had not thought of that distinction. I had a look at the definition of "cognate" and then wondered how one could prove that they were borrowed. isn't it very subtle? Could you illustrate with an example? _(I am not calling your answer in doubt, I am just trying to see the finesse ;-) of the distinction... If necessary, I'll create  a separate thread!)_

This is a very interesting one: 


> There are a lot, but the opposite is also true. French _bistrot_ (_café_) is said to come from Russian бы́стро (_fast_).


(Had almost missed that one!)


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## Yendred

ThomasK said:


> I had a look at the definition of "cognate" and then wondered how one could prove that they were borrowed. isn't it very subtle? Could you illustrate with an example?


Well, a simple example among the words from that list is Russian Аквариум / French _aquarium_. They were not borrowed one from the other, but they both come from Latin.


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## ThomasK

OK, that is an excellent example, for sure. I quite agree! And when reading the A words, I notice they offer numerous examples of cognates!


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## Yendred

ThomasK said:


> This is a very interesting one:
> 
> 
> 
> There are a lot, but the opposite is also true. French _bistrot_ (_café_) is said to come from Russian бы́стро (_fast_).
> 
> 
> 
> (Had almost missed that one!)
Click to expand...

Well, that etymology is popular, but it is said to be an invention. More probably, French _bistrot _has a regional origin.
Oddly enough, Russian has borrowed their бистро from French _bistrot_.

A more attested example of a French word of Russian origin is _mazout _(_fuel oil_), from Russian мазут(*) (same meaning), not to mention _vodka_, _chapka_, and so on...

(*) itself coming from Arabic _makhzoul._


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## fenakhay

Russian terms borrowed from French


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## Yendred

fenakhay said:


> Russian terms borrowed from French


Thank you wonderful list! That makes more than 1000 Russian words borrowed from French!

Another common word from that list: 
багаж, from _bagage _(_luggage_).


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## Awwal12

ThomasK said:


> OK, that is an excellent example, for sure. I quite agree! And when reading the A words, I notice they offer numerous examples of cognates!


Not really cognates, just common loans. Cognates are words that have been inherited straight from the common proto-language in two descendant languages, without any loaning being involved in process. In particular, while French essentially originates from Latin, it has many words that weren't inherited from Latin (undergoing all the phonetic shifts in process) but represent subsequent literary loans from Latin as a dead language.

Russian words starting in a- are predominantly loanwords (basically all of them, aside from the conjunction "a" and some old compounds which include it etymologically, plus some onomatopoeias and probably some occasional samples of akanye which have been reflected in spelling) and thus cannot be cognates to anything.


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## dihydrogen monoxide

Russian word for trousers is borrowed from Dutch.


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## Awwal12

dihydrogen monoxide said:


> Russian word for trousers is borrowed from Dutch.


One is indeed. The other is from a Turkic source, though.


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## dihydrogen monoxide

Awwal12 said:


> One is indeed. The other is from a Turkic source, though.



I don't know about the Turkish one. In BCS there is also a loanword from Turkish for trousers.


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## ThomasK

dihydrogen monoxide said:


> Russian word for trousers is borrowed from Dutch.


Something like "broek"?


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## Awwal12

ThomasK said:


> Something like "broek"?


Yeah, брюки [ˈbrʲʉkʲɪ], plural only.
The Turkic (not Turkish) counterpart is штаны [ʂtaˈnɨ] (from *iştan); likewise, plural only.
In modern Russian брюки is used for ironed, formal pants, of as a formal, technical term for pants in general. Штаны basically cover the remaining usage.


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