# Mandatory Tithing and Separation of Church/State in Germany



## übermönch

Church doesn't need to go commercial in FRGermany. Church and state are not separated here, thus if you happen to specify that you believe in christ in your documents, you gotta pay _1/10th of your income_ to the PHAT CHURCH through the Kirchensteuer. That's really sick ... Christian Fundamentalists rule the country. Where's Gustav Adolf when he's needed? Our european neighbors don't seem to bother any longer.

*Mod Note:  This thread was split from the thread entitled "The Marketing of [Name Your Deity Here].  *


----------



## GenJen54

übermönch said:
			
		

> thus if you happen to specify that you believe in christ in your documents, you gotta pay _1/10th of your income_ to the PHAT CHURCH through the Kirchensteue


So, instead of tithing voluntarily, this type of "tithing" is more like a tax?  Wow!


----------



## la reine victoria

> Originally Posted by *übermönch*
> thus if you happen to specify that you believe in christ in your documents, you gotta pay _1/10th of your income_ to the PHAT CHURCH through the Kirchensteue


 


This is disgraceful and positively mediaeval.  Belief in Jesus is free to all.  

I hope Tony Blair doesn't read the posts on this forum - he'd whack another 10% "stealth tax" on all believers!

It is up to church-goers to give what they can afford to the church which they attend.




LRV


----------



## Fernando

übermönch said:
			
		

> Church doesn't need to go commercial in FRGermany. Church and state are not separated here, thus if you happen to specify that you believe in christ in your documents, you gotta pay _1/10th of your income_ to the PHAT CHURCH through the Kirchensteuer. That's really sick ... Christian Fundamentalists rule the country. Where's Gustav Adolf when he's needed? Our european neighbors don't seem to bother any longer.


Thank God Gustav Adolf was killed and their troops were defeated by Imperials and Spaniards at Nordlingen. Otherwise you would have a protestant theocracy and you would pay taxes to Stockholm.

Church and State ARE separated in Germany. I guess that you can NOT to pay the Kirchensteuer and you choose where it goes, can't you?


----------



## Brioche

übermönch said:
			
		

> Church doesn't need to go commercial in FRGermany. Church and state are not separated here, thus if you happen to specify that you believe in christ in your documents, you gotta pay _1/10th of your income_ to the PHAT CHURCH through the Kirchensteuer. .


 
That is simply not true.
There is no Established Church in Germany, 
unlike the UK, where the Tony Blair appoints the bishops of the Church of England.

German Church Tax is not 1/10 of your income. 
In Baden-Wurtemberg and Bavaria is 8% of your income tax.
In the other states of Germany, 9% of your income tax.
If you are single and earn 3,000 EUR a month, you pay about 35 EUR in  Church tax, which is slightly over 1% of income.

If you are a member of either the Evangelical Church [Lutheran] or Catholic Church, you have to pay Church Tax. 

If you don't want to pay Church Tax, you leave the church [aus der Kirche austreten]. 

Naturally, the Germans being German, you have to do this officially, and make sure you keep your certificate. Depending on the state where you live, you may be charged a fee to leave the church. This fee varies between zero and EUR 50.


----------



## übermönch

Fernando said:
			
		

> Thank God Gustav Adolf was killed and their troops were defeated by Imperials and Spaniards at Nordlingen. Otherwise you would have a protestant theocracy and you would pay taxes to Stockholm.


Swedes still remember Gustav as a nice king, the wephalian also don't remember any terrible feroicities resulting from it. Besides, Sweden is a nice warm social and progressive state. I wouldn't have anything against Germany being a part of it today... 


> Church and State ARE separated in Germany.


They are not. Where did you get the information? There are protestant and catholic religion lessons at schools, there are crosses in every Bavarian classroom, there's Kirchensteuer & there are several treaties between church and German state. Treaties between with the catholic church are called "Konkordat"s, with the evangelical "Kirchenvertrag"s.
Take a look here if you understand German:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staatskirchenvertrag
here is a list of currently active treaties between German Republic and the catholic church:

Bayerisches Konkordat vom 29. März 1924
Preußisches Konkordat vom 14. Juni 1929
Badisches Konkordat vom 12. Oktober 1932
Reichskonkordat vom 20. Juli 1933
Vertrag des Landes Hessen mit den Katholischen Bistümern in Hessen vom 9. März 1963
Konkordat zwischen dem Heiligen Stuhle und dem Lande Niedersachsen vom 26. Februar 1965
Vertrag zwischen dem Heiligen Stuhl und dem Freistaat Sachsen vom 2. Juli 1996
Vertrag zwischen dem Heiligen Stuhl und dem Freistaat Thüringen vom 11. Juni 1997
Vertrag zwischen dem Heiligen Stuhl und dem Land Mecklenburg-Vorpommern vom 15. September 1997
Vertrag zwischen dem Heiligen Stuhl und dem Land Sachsen-Anhalt vom 15. Januar 1998
Vertrag zwischen dem Heiligen Stuhl und dem Land Brandenburg vom 12. November 2003
Vertrag zwischen der Freien Hansestadt Bremen und dem Heiligen Stuhl vom 21. November 2003
Vertrag zwischen dem Heiligen Stuhl und der Freien und Hansestadt Hamburg vom 29. November 2005
And that's with the evangelic church:

Vertrag zwischen dem Bayerischen Staate und der Evangelisch-Lutherischen Kirche in Bayern rechts des Rheins vom 15. November 1924
Vertrag des Freistaates Preußen mit den Evangelischen Landeskirchen vom 11. Mai 1931
Vertrag des Freistaates Baden mit der Vereinigten Evangelisch-protestantischen Landeskirche Badens vom 14. November 1932
Vertrag der Bundesrepublik Deutschland mit der Evangelischen Kirche in Deutschland zur Regelung der evangelischen Militärseelsorge vom 22. Februar 1957
Vertrag des Landes Schleswig-Holstein mit den Evangelischen Landeskirchen in Schleswig-Holstein vom 23. April 1957
Vertrag des Landes Nordrhein-Westfalen mit den Evangelischen Kirchen von Rheinland und Westfalen vom 9. September 1957
Vereinbarung des Landes Niedersachsen mit den Evangelischen Landeskirchen in Niedersachsen über die Privatschulen vom 10. September 1957
Vertrag des Landes Nordrhein-Westfalen mit der Lippischen Landeskirche vom 6. März 1958, Ergänzung vom 26. September 1959
Vertrag des Landes Hessen mit den Evangelischen Landeskirchen in Hessen vom 18. Februar 1960
Vertrag des Landes Rheinland-Pfalz mit den Evangelischen Landeskirchen in Rheinland-Pfalz vom 3. November 1962
Ergänzungsvertrag des Landes Niedersachsen mit den evangelischen Kirchen vom 4. März 1965
Vereinbarung über die evangelische Seelsorge im Bundesgrenzschutz vom 20. bis 23. Juli / 12. August 1965
Vertrag des Saarlandes von 1968 über den Theologischen Lehrstuhl der Universität Saarbrücken
Vertrag des Landes Niedersachsen mit der Freireligiösen Landesgemeinschaft Niedersachsen vom 8. Juni 1970
"Abschließendes Protokoll" des Landes Berlin über Besprechungen mit der Evangelischen Kirche vom 2. Juli 1970
Vereinbarung zwischen dem Senat von Berlin und der Jüdischen Gemeinde zu Berlin vom 8. Januar 1971
Vereinbarung über den kirchlichen Dienst an Polizeibeamten (Polizeiseelsorge) im Saarland vom 25. Oktober 1978 (auch mit römisch-katholischen Diözesen)
"Düsseldorfer Vertrag" des Landes Nordrhein-Westfalen zum Hochschulwesen vom 29. März 1984
Vertrag zwischen dem Land Hessen und dem Landesverband der Jüdischen Gemeinden in Hessen vom 11. November 1986
Vereinbarung des Freistaates Sachsen mit den Ev. Kirchen im Freistaat Sachsen zur Regelung der seelsorgerlichen Tätigkeit in den Justizvollzugsanstalten vom 25. Januar 1993
"Wittenberger Vertrag" des Landes Sachsen-Anhalt mit den Evangelischen Landeskirchen in Sachsen-Anhalt vom 15. September 1993
Vertrag zwischen dem Freistaat Thüringen und der Jüdischen Landesgemeinde vom 1. November 1993
"Güstrower Vertrag" zwischen dem Land Mecklenburg-Vorpommern und der Ev.-Luth. Landeskirche Mecklenburgs und der Pommerschen Landeskirche vom 20. Januar 1994
Vertrag des Freistaates Thüringen mit den Ev. Kirchen in Thüringen vom 15. März 1994
Vertrag des Landes Sachsen-Anhalt mit der Jüdischen Gemeinschaft in Sachsen-Anhalt vom 23. März 1994
Vertrag des Freistaates Sachsen mit den ev. Landeskirchen im Freistaat Sachsen vom 24. März 1994
Vereinbarung zwischen dem Land Sachsen-Anhalt und den Ev. Kirchen im Land Sachsen-Anhalt zur Regelung der seelsorgerlichen Tätigkeit in den Justizvollzugsanstalten vom 24. März 1994
Vereinbarung zwischen dem Land Sachsen-Anhalt und den Ev. Kirchen im Land Sachsen-Anhalt über den kirchlichen Dienst an Polizeibeamten
Vertrag des Freistaates Sachsen mit dem Landesverband der Jüdischen Gemeinden vom 7. Juni 1994
Vertrag über die Gestellung im kirchlichen Dienst für den Religionsunterricht an öffentlichen Schulen im Freistaat Sachsen vom 7. September 1994 (abgeschlossen auch mit den katholischen Bistümern)
Rahmenvereinbarung der Bundesrepublik Deutschland mit der Evangelischen Kirche in Deutschland über die evangelische Seelsorge in der Bundeswehr im Bereich der neuen Bundesländer vom 12. Juni 1996
Vertrag zwischen dem Land Brandenburg und den evangelischen Landeskirchen in Brandenburg vom 8. November 1996
Vertrag zwischen der Jüdischen Gemeinde in Hamburg und dem Land Schleswig-Holstein über die Förderung jüdischen Lebens in Schleswig-Holstein vom 12. März 1998
Vertrag zwischen dem Land Rheinland-Pfalz und dem Landesverband der Jüdischen Gemeinden von Rheinland-Pfalz vom 8. März 2000
Vertrag der Freien Hansestadt Bremen mit den Evangelischen Kirchen in Bremen vom 31. Oktober 2001
Staatsvertrag zwischen der Bundesrepublik Deutschland und dem Zentralrat der Juden in Deutschland vom 27. Januar 2003
Vertrag zwischen der Freien und Hansestadt Hamburg und der Nordelbischen Evangelisch-Lutherischen Kirche 29. November 2005
For instance, §24 of Reichskonkordat of 1933 states that "Catholic Faith is a normal school lesson", §32 states that members of the catholic clerus may not take part it political parties. All this is still valid today. Now tell me the church and state are separated in the federal republic of Germany.


> I guess that you can NOT to pay the Kirchensteuer and you choose where it goes, can't you?


You can choose not to pay if you don't register yourself as a protestant or catholic, if I'm not wrong, belonging to bigger religion like muslim or jew also makes you paying the tax. 




			
				Brioche said:
			
		

> That is simply not true.
> There is no Established Church in Germany,
> unlike the UK, where the Tony Blair appoints the bishops of the Church of England.


 There are TWO established churches over here.


> German Church Tax is not 1/10 of your income.
> In Baden-Wurtemberg and Bavaria is 8% of your income tax.
> In the other states of Germany, 9% of your income tax.


Okay, you've proved me wrong, it's not 10/100, but 9/100 & 8/100. 


> If you are single and earn 3,000 EUR a month, you pay about 35 EUR in  Church tax, which is slightly over 1% of income.


Wow, our church is terribly nice to singles.


> If you are a member of either the Evangelical Church [Lutheran] or Catholic Church, you have to pay Church Tax.
> 
> If you don't want to pay Church Tax, you leave the church [aus der Kirche austreten].
> 
> Naturally, the Germans being German, you have to do this officially, and make sure you keep your certificate. Depending on the state where you live, you may be charged a fee to leave the church. This fee varies between zero and EUR 50.


Yes. Don't you think it's terrible? Besides, you cannot quit the church untill 14 years of age, untill this moment your parents decide to which church you belong.


----------



## maxiogee

übermönch said:
			
		

> you gotta pay _1/10th of your income_ to the PHAT CHURCH through the Kirchensteuer.





			
				Brioche said:
			
		

> German Church Tax is not 1/10 of your income.
> In Baden-Wurtemberg and Bavaria is 8% of your income tax.
> In the other states of Germany, 9% of your income tax.





			
				übermönch said:
			
		

> Okay, you've proved me wrong, it's not 10/100, but 9/100 & 8/100.



übermönch, Brioche is saying that the percentage is of one's income tax, not of one's income!


----------



## Fernando

All of this is off-topic. Anyway:

Do you mean BRD is a confessional State because:

1) You have agreements (Konkordats are Spanish "Concordatos" and "Vertragen" Sp. "acuerdos") with Churches. Outrageous! 

2) "Catholic Faith is a normal school lesson" So what? It is the same in Spain and Italy.

3) "§32 states that members of the catholic clerus may not take part it political parties". Well, this is a sign of (excessive, to me) separation.

4) State collects the money for those who WANT IT.

Wow, I can not see the difference between Saudi Arabia and BRD.


----------



## ampurdan

Fernando said:
			
		

> Thank God Gustav Adolf was killed and their troops were defeated by Imperials and Spaniards at Nordlingen. Otherwise you would have a protestant theocracy and you would pay taxes to Stockholm.


 
Ok, this it sarcasm, isn't it? At least the Habsburg could not manage to impose religious uniformity in Germany, as they did in Spain.


----------



## Fernando

ampurdan said:
			
		

> Ok, this it sarcasm, isn't it? At least the Habsburg could not manage to impose religious uniformity in Germany, as they did in Spain.



Offtopicae offtopicarum: He tried to impose protestant uniformity. Catholicism became a forbiden religion (or at least second-rate) in all places where protestantism won (from Geneve to England).

The "tolerance" only came from the clash of the two fanatisms.

Mods, feel free.


----------



## übermönch

Fernando said:
			
		

> All of this is off-topic. Anyway:
> 
> Do you mean BRD is a confessional State because:
> 
> 1) You have agreements (Konkordats are Spanish "Concordatos" and "Vertragen" Sp. "acuerdos") with Churches. Outrageous!


 It is _outrageous_!


> 2) "Catholic Faith is a normal school lesson" So what? It is the same in Spain and Italy.


 So Spain and Italy also aren't secular states. Why the heck would state sponsored schools teach any kind of religion? If they do church and state are not separated. It is really that simple


> 3) "§32 states that members of the catholic clerus may not take part it political parties". Well, this is a sign of (excessive, to me) separation.


 It is not! There shouldn't be anything special in the church! Clerics are supposed to be treated as members of sports clubs or anonymous alcoholic organizations. Let me call some other points of the concordat:
§5 Clerics enjoy the same status by law as governmental officials/authorities.
§13 Church soceities and organizations are seen as official bodies of public right.
§22 Teachers of the catholic faith can only be appointed with the agreement of the local bishop.
§30 The clerus is obliged to pray for the wellbeing of the German people

And that Konkordat is only one of many.


> 4) State collects the money for those who WANT IT.


 allright. Let's say, I'm an avid supporter of the organization of homoerotic artsy vampires. Why doesn't the state collect money for them aswell? Why the heck is the state supposed to collect money for a organization like the church? Besides the laws on the Kirchensteuer do have further specifications like "families of separated faith" etc.


> Wow, I can not see the difference between Saudi Arabia and BRD.


 Yeah, Iran, Saudi Arabia, FRG, all these terrible states belong to the MEDIEVAL, not to MODERN SOCEITY! Whereto do France, USA, Netherlands and other WELL DEVELOPED states look to?

The German catholic church harvests 4 Billions Euros each year from fellow tax payers. The evangelical harvests 3,5 Billions. Not bad.


----------



## ampurdan

übermönch said:
			
		

> Yeah, Iran, Saudi Arabia, FRG, all these terrible states belong to the MEDIEVAL, not to MODERN SOCEITY! Whereto do France, USA, Netherlands and other WELL DEVELOPED states look to?


 
The USA??? You mean that country which has a president whose mouth gets stuffed of the word "God" any time he wants to justify his political agenda?

In Spanish we say that comparisons are detestable.


----------



## übermönch

ampurdan said:
			
		

> The USA??? You mean that country which has a president whose mouth gets stuffed of the word "God" any time he wants to justify his political agenda?
> 
> In Spanish we say that comparisons are detestable.


It´s OK, politicians may believe whatever they want. However, it is only OK as long as Bush holds church & god out of laws and governmental affairs. He allowed teaching christian creationist theories at school. This is bad, but teaching religious stuff as a whole separate lesson is by far worse.


----------



## ampurdan

übermönch said:
			
		

> He allowed teaching christian creationist theories at school. This is bad, but teaching religious stuff as a whole separate lesson is by far worse.


 
Is it? Why? Making People think that their religious ideas are scientifically prooved is better than people who has taken a subject on religion? At least the latter will be able to tell the difference.

I'm against the confessional class of religion and the public role of religious leaders in Spain as well. And I'm quite sick about the echo they have on the media, specially when they spread theories of hatred disguised of love and such things. Anyway, all this is a little bit off topic and it's my fault.


----------



## Fernando

I think the echo they have on the media is far less than their real importance, specially when compared with politicians, unionists, and "people" leaders. 

Please, measure the time on screen of bishops in public TV in comparison with representants of the Asociación de Gays y Lesbianas (as an example).

By the way, "hatred disguised of love"?


----------



## ampurdan

Fernando said:
			
		

> Please, measure the time on screen of bishops in public TV in comparison with representants of the Asociación de Gays y Lesbianas (as an example).


 
As a matter of fact, there is hardly a news programme in which clerics do not appear giving their (place the adjective you want here) opinions. I don't even remember last time I saw a representative of that association on tv, and they are not known to give on air their opinions about church issues anyway.



			
				Fernando said:
			
		

> By the way, "hatred disguised of love"?


 Please, switch on your radio and listen to some radios you may find in Spain (Polish ones may be similar), you'll be delighted with the love the Lord lavishes to his "misdirected" children. Well, that will be just the surface of it. They say they represent the God of love but they have been always denying dignity to their so-called heretics, infidels, unruly workers, killer mothers, deviants, suicides, etc. But they do confer it to the most insane and cruel fundamentalists, even making them saints. Oh, and they have never, ever refrained from taking from the Caesar's. Lately, some Spanish bishops want to make a brand new sin out of political separatism. But don't you worry, because separation of Church is granted: bishops do not give their opinion about intrinsically evil urbanistic regulation, fot instance.

In fact, all that is not what makes me more sick, what makes me more sick is their ability to do all this and yet be regarded with respect. Sometimes their hipocrisy is as great as politicians' (such as Mn. Rouco critizising the right-wing Mayor of Madrid for marrying two men now and not before) but for their believers they are much better than politicians. If a boy puts a palestine handkerchief around the Pope's neck, the Pope is great, but if the same thing happens to Mr. Zapatero he is an antisemite.


----------



## Fernando

ampurdan said:
			
		

> they are not known to give on air their opinions about church issues anyway.



Quite on the contrary. They say (pontify, I say) on celibate, woman clergy, and so on.



			
				ampurdan said:
			
		

> bishops do not give their opinion about intrinsically evil urbanistic regulation, fot instance.



You are right. Since I agree is intrinsecally evil, they ALSO should.

Anyway, thanks for the clarification: I thought you were referring with "hatred disguised of love" to Zapatero policies.


----------



## ampurdan

Yes, you're right. Zapatero and all the homosexuals of the world are very evil-intentioned because they just want to get married to get the Church pissed off. Please!

I just dream of the day these leaders of the Church will have their deserved TV share: gossip shows.


----------



## Fernando

Turning to the point, I can not see why a State that collects money for all kind of NGOs (willingly or not) should not collect money for big, well-stablished organizations from willing members.



			
				ampurdan said:
			
		

> Yes, you're right. Zapatero and all the homosexuals of the world are very evil-intentioned because they just want to get married to get the Church pissed off. Please!


 
I was not referring to that, but the fact that Zapa is wrapped in love-peace talk when only people who kill or block airports get something from this government. Demonstrations are no use.



			
				ampurdan said:
			
		

> I just dream of the day these leaders of the Church will have their deserved TV share: gossip shows.



Well, gossip "journalists" are in news programs, so why not?


----------



## Brioche

übermönch said:
			
		

> There are TWO established churches over here.


 
There are no churches in Germany which have been *established by the government.*

The Germany does not have a Book of Common Prayer approved by the Bundestag (or the old Reichstag); there is no religious test for the Head of State; the President does not choose the Bishops; there are no Bishoprics with seats in the Bundesrat; &c, &c.


----------



## ampurdan

Fernando said:
			
		

> Turning to the point, I can not see why a State that collects money for all kind of NGOs (willingly or not) should not collect money for big, well-stablished organizations from willing members.


 
He who does not want to see, won't see. All the activity of the Church is subsidized, regardless of its purposes. My money is paying the Pope's air-conditioned one-day altar in Valencia, a radio insulting my country or the stock investment of the bishop. The Church is not a NGO, whose activities can be inspected. It is superprivileged. There's no reason my money should do that.

I would have no problem in subsidizing the specific branches of the Church which efectevily do important social work.



			
				Fernando said:
			
		

> I was not referring to that, but the fact that Zapa is wrapped in love-peace talk when only people who kill or block airports get something from this government. Demonstrations are no use


 
Well, maybe your Zapa is a disaster or not, but that's obviously not what we were discussing. I don't like wild strikes either, but we should discuss it in another thread. By the way, your monstruous Zapa won't touch the budgetary allocation for the Church. After all, that's the price we pay to have some social progess in our country.


----------



## Fernando

ampurdan said:
			
		

> My money is paying the Pope's air-conditioned one-day altar in Valencia, a radio insulting my country or the stock investment of the bishop. The Church is not a NGO, whose activities can be inspected. It is superprivileged. There's no reason my money should do that.


 
My money is paying:

- EU subsidies to Palestinian Government (Hamas). Inspection?
- Film makers that attack my ideas. Basically the government is paying them for attacking the opposition (40% of the country). Inspection? "I spent 6 million euros in a documentary about "Prestige" with a big commercial success: I sold it to TVE".
- Batasuna parliament members. Inspection?
- Radical homosexual organizations. Inspection? Ah, yeah, they can say "I spent those 100 million euros in leaflets telling nice jokes about la Conferencia Episcopal and how pederastians they are"
- Abortist pill promotion. Inspection?
- "Sun games" in Madrid. 
- Ikastolas. Inspection?
- Spanish public TV network, always in favor of (whatever) government. That is only 6 billion euros debt. Peanuts.
- Football, basketball clubs. Inspection: "I spent 10 million euros in Ronaldinho/Ronaldo. So what?".
- All kind of stupid, idiotic, dumb organizations.
- Last Zapatero (2) travel to London. Inspection?

¡¡¡Dame algo a mí, payo!!! 

COPE (the radio that is insulting your country (1)? ) is self-sustained.

(1) Maybe you mean "our president". The radio that is insulting my country is called "ETB radia". I pay it, by the way.

(2) I assumed Aznar did the same. Same shit.



			
				ampurdan said:
			
		

> Well, maybe your Zapa is a disaster or not, but that's obviously not what we were discussing. I don't like wild strikes either, but we should discuss it in another thread. By the way, your monstruous Zapa won't touch the budgetary allocation for the Church. After all, that's the price we pay to have some social progess in our country.



Agreed. 

Agreed it is off topic here.


----------



## ampurdan

We are paying much nonsense, ok, but that does not mean we must afford more nonsense, especially when this nonsense strives to limit people's rights.


----------



## Fernando

As a matter of fact, we are paying more nosense every day (Sun Games is a good example).

I would agree with a reducement of ALL subsidies. 

We have an evident disagreement on what is to "limit people's rights". Half the examples I have given to you before are specifically intended to reduce people's rights (not the Sun Games). 

Church should maintain (in my opinion):

- Subsidies for care (Cáritas, Manos Unidas, some monk/nuns organizations).
- Subsidies for conserving historical estate directly addressed to religious activities (cathedrals, some monasteries...). 
- Subsidies for private school (the same as other private -concertados- school).
- Payroll of school teachers.
- The same subisidies that given to Asociación de la Petanca de Leganés (with the same members).
- Collecting of money is just a relic from the time the State expropiated ALL goods from Church.


----------



## ampurdan

Ok. Let's have the Church get the same subsidies given to the Leganese Petanque Association.


----------

